# India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist



## SpArK

*India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
*The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.

*StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*

StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation&#8217;s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB&#8217;s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.

It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.

It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it&#8217;s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.

One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.

The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.

Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF&#8217;s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.


India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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## mjnaushad

So the money is going to europe ..

BTW i like Gripen, Too bad..

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## blackops

just get Rafale and i will join the iaf

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## ramu

A more reliable source :

India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist | StratPost

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## tallboy123

oooooofff finally they shortlisted 2 of them....
F-18 and F-16 bye bye...

Now I guess it would be french Rafale.....
COz Eurofighter has some spare part scarce issue.....

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## SpArK

This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ... 

where is jha ,DBC and Co.

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## GORKHALI

*YEPEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOPE THIS NEWS IS TRUE ELSE SPARKY MIGHT GET BOXED *


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## SpArK



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## Ajaxpaul

I think time has come to support Dassault . if IAF selects it...it will have the sexiest 4++ gen beast in asia.

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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is jha ,DBC and Co.


 
DAMN !!!!! i told everyone here ................ *Pandora's crystal ball *

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## kingdurgaking

finally     ... wow a good news after so long years

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## Ammyy

Euro Fighter all the way

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## blackops

SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is jha ,DBC and Co.


 
this the best part the best one won Rafale

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 PM ----------




DRDO said:


> Euro Fighter all the way


 
not going to happen it will be the french who are going to give us are new jets


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## ramu

I am instantly reminded of the Business standard article :

*European fighters lead MMRCA race*
Ajai Shukla / Yelahanka/ Bangalore February 10, 2011, 0:45 IST
It was a no-holds-barred duel at Aero India 2011 for a $10-billion (Rs 45,500 crore) prize. Turn by turn, four of the world&#8217;s most advanced fighter aircraft roared into the sky, keenly aware of the watching eyes of Indian ministry of defence (MoD) officials who would decide which of them was best suited for the Indian Air Force&#8217;s order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

European fighters lead MMRCA race

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## Varad

Good news that the 16s and 18s are gone. We should surely go for Rafale.

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## KS

SpArK said:


> *India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist*


 
Rafale all the way babbbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. 


Sparky if this news turns out to be false, I will have to 'pay' you a visit 



SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is jha ,DBC and Co.


 
Count me in too. A Rafale fanboi.

Sancho...where are you ?

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## tallboy123

So final winner will be announced on????


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## Cityboy

I already posted b4. . My sources told me quite early dat its gonna be rafael. .


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## foxbat

So with existing Mirages, and now Rafale, France will become a fairly large defense partner of India


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## kingdurgaking

yeeppy


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## airuah

i am goona have a toast.......finally some action


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## Nair saab

Paint this In Indian airforce colour

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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Rafale all the way babbbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
> 
> 
> Sparky if this news turns out to be false, I will have to 'pay' you a visit


 
Haha... i will be back to Kerala by May end... we will celebrate a rafale win..


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## GORKHALI

Karthic Sri said:


> Rafale all the way babbbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
> 
> 
> Sparky if this news turns out to be false, I will have to 'pay' you a visit


 
*Sparky will be featured in my Signature for whole month ,if this news is true *


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## Ajaxpaul

Nair saab said:


> Paint this In Indian airforce colour


 
a true bomber!!!


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## blackops

it looks so damn sexsy

*IAF RAFALE*

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## foxbat

India continues its love affair with delta wing

\o/


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## Contract Killer

*Best News till date on PDF since the day i joined.  *

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## tallboy123



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## kingdurgaking

i just want to post senseless thing again and again.. for this news.


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Rafale all the way babbbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
> 
> 
> Sparky if this news turns out to be false, I will have to 'pay' you a visit
> 
> 
> 
> Count me in too. A Rafale fanboi.
> 
> Sancho...where are you ?


 
I had a conversation with Sancho regarding the production line and some general quarries regarding the 'roadmap of super bug"..through PM's

I will post it since its good information.



> Do you have any information regarding the possible production facility of Dassault and Boeing.. What is this Mirage line?? And how much more time will it need to setup one with HAL? ..
> 
> Also the "roadmap" of boeing.. how much is it significant.. are they offering the roadmap from the production number 1 or is it later , stages will have them?
> By SpArK






> I've heared that the production line of Rafale was set up for up to 30 fighters a year, Mirage line was similar. Not sure about the Boeing line, but they have very good capabilities, so it should be at least that high as well.
> How much time is needed in India is difficult to say, but I think the French companies have it easier, because they've done it in India before.
> The F18 roadmap is mainly PR, it looks great but just counters the main shortfalls of the fighter. The first point is that the have to fund them additionally, which increases the cost. Secondly, most of it is not developed, the touchscreens for example are aimed to be ready in 2015 only, that's why Boeing officials only talks about the EPE and the new sensors in regard of the MMRCA. The CFTs, or the weapon pod should need even more time for R&D and integration. IF IAF wants these capabilities, they could have it with Rafale anyway, without the risk of delays in development, or taken unproven techs and the costs are pretty much the same:
> 
> F18SH flyaway cost is around $55 millions each (Rafale around $78)
> 
> + fundings for integrated IRST
> + fundings for new cockpit design
> + fundings for higher thrust engine
> + fundings for laser and missile warner
> 
> All this only to offer the same that Rafale has today and will the F18 still be clearly cheaper?
> 
> And as I pointed out recently, the geolocating and passive cueing on radars is possible with any Rafale, while only the F18 Growlers have them on their wingtip pods. Which shows that the Rafale has still more to offer.
> 
> The only real advantage of the roadmap is the weapon pod, but I still have some doubts on how much the advantage really is, because it is an external pod and not attached to the airframe, like it is the case for the Silent Eagle. Moreover, not all weapons will be carried internally, the SR missiles will still remain on the wingtip pylons like the Boeing graphics showed. So how much is the real benefit in relation to the development costs here?
> 
> Just read on livefist that the commercial bids expire tomorrow, it would be very emberassing if we have to ask the vendors for new once again! by sancho

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## tallboy123

So how much advanced is Rafale when compared to -16's block 50's and J-10's,????


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## Nair saab

Finally we will get plane with those beautiful *Canard* ...just keeping my fingers crossed...


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## SpArK

I guess we are the first among the forums to know this.. BR is sleeping it seems.


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## KS

SpArK said:


> Haha... i will be back to Kerala by May end... we will celebrate a rafale win..


 


But hope the other vendors don't put a brake in the process sucessfully (which I am sure they will try to).

Anthony chetta, be careful.

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## GORKHALI

*MY BABY STRONGEST *

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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


> So how much advanced is Rafale when compared to -16's block 50's and J-10's,????


 
Its like comparing katrina kaif with mohammad kaif.

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## tallboy123

Rafale has be tested in real battle scenario to some extent few days ago too!!!


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> I guess we are the first among the forums to know this.. BR is sleeping it seems.


 
BR jumps in sparkels after this news is validated .... i guess every one is tired after lot of speculation

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## Dash

GUYS!!!..YOU FORGOT ME AS A RAFALE FAN BOY TOO!!!!!


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## Nair saab

SpArK said:


> Its like comparing katrina kaif with mohammad kaif.


But in real match Mohammad kaif proves more useful...hpe it doesnt happens with RAFALE...

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## Lord Of Gondor

41 dudes are viewing this thread!!Go Benny!!!!BTW I hate both these costly pieces of awesomeness and love the SAAB JAS 39 Gripen IN but who cares!!IAF wins @ the end of the day and the stunning debates between Sancho and DBC will end!
Mr.A.K.Anthony FTW!!!!!


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> But hope the other vendors don't put a brake in the process sucessfully (which I am sure they will try to).
> 
> Anthony chetta, be careful.


 

Antony has been crying.. be carefull.. aggressive marketing blah blahs ... 
aroor gave a hind of a deal of BAE 777 howiters deal finalising and 10 more C-17s of boeing.. in twitter.. so something was fishy...


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## Ajaxpaul

Karthic Sri said:


> But hope the other vendors don't put a brake in the process sucessfully (which I am sure they will try to).
> 
> Anthony chetta, be careful.


 
I think antony appapan is the only one who can stand against US.


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## Contract Killer

Guys.................. Is it confirm, it is Rafale? 

Or EF & Rafale both?


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## kingdurgaking

seems other vendors are going to poke in on the selection


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## blain2

Does this report mean that these two are shortlisted or that they were the only two whose bids were expiring thus the request to extend? Maybe the others' bids are not expiring. I ask having read quite few such reports which do not seem to understand the overall process of this bid (neither do I thus I ask).

Aside from that, IAF would be the only ones flying the Rafale aside from the ADA. Diseconomies of scale come to mind with the Rafale. If IAF does go the route of Rafale with such a large order, it may entice other like Brazilians to consider it as well (along with the UAE). However the risk of only two operators and dealing with the French post sale would require some guarantees. Typhoon would offer some more flexibility here but in the end I think IAF know what they want and the GoI would have to handle the dealings with the French.

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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> seems other vendors are going to poke in on the selection


 
Boeing no.. since we are giving them transport deals... Migs- never since we have already told them, LM- maybe but deals are there for them too, Saab- read my signature.


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## kingkobra

chances of IAF going for rafale are more as they have given choice of fast delivery of 40 fighters..


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## Contract Killer

Guys........... Just see the traffic in this Thread.


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## Ajaxpaul

so the bombings in Libya caught the right eyes!!!

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## KS

SpArK said:


> Antony has been crying.. be carefull.. aggressive marketing blah blahs ...
> aroor gave a hind of a deal of BAE 777 howiters deal finalising and 10 more C-17s of boeing.. in twitter.. so something was fishy...


 
777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy

PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.

Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy

Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy

EU ?

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## foxbat

SpArK said:


> Its like comparing katrina kaif with mohammad kaif.


 
OMG.. 

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------




Nair saab said:


> But in real match Mohammad kaif proves more useful...hpe it doesnt happens with RAFALE...


 
Depends on what kind of game you are more interested in playing.. If you get my drift

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## Ajaxpaul

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?


 
For EU we gave them 100 commercial jets!!

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## koushik

This news means that the IAF will get the Meteor BVRAAM,MBDA Storm Shadow,Paveway IV LGB and the KEPD-50 Taurus ATGM.wow go for Rafale.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Finally !!! This is great - Eurofighter and Rafale were the most suitable . I hope its the Eurofighter , the platform is capable and can be upgraded in keeping with our needs . Always thought Rafale to be an older , comparatively lesser design . 


Now the MOD 's work the strategic choice should be simple enough - No American fighters complicating proceedings - Go for the Euro fighter and close the deal quick . Eurofighter EADS agreed to make us a fifth manufacturing partner , we should reap the economic benefits as fast as possible.

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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?


 
We will send few envoys and start tickle them... they will be happy too...


Who cares...... Ending up second is almost as good.


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## Varad

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?



*THATS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT INDIAN DIPLOMACY.*


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## Contract Killer

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Finally !!! This is great - Eurofighter and Rafale were the most suitable . I hope its the Eurofighter , the platform is capable and can be upgraded in keeping with our needs . Always thought Rafale to be an older , comparatively lesser design .
> 
> 
> Now the MOD 's work the strategic choice should be simple enough - No American fighters complicating proceedings - Go for the Euro fighter and close the deal quick . Eurofighter EADS agreed to make us a fifth manufacturing partner , we should reap the economic benefits as fast as possible.


 
Yes we should go with Eurofighter......

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## Break the Silence

I DESPERATELY HOPE that Rafale will be stationed at Jamnagar and Bareily..


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## KS

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Finally !!! This is great - Eurofighter and Rafale were the most suitable . I hope its the Eurofighter , the platform is capable and can be upgraded in keeping with our needs . Always thought Rafale to be an older , comparatively lesser design .
> 
> 
> Now the MOD 's work the strategic choice should be simple enough - No American fighters complicating proceedings - Go for the Euro fighter and close the deal quick . Eurofighter EADS agreed to make us a fifth manufacturing partner , we should reap the economic benefits as fast as possible.


 
Though I personally like Rafale for whatever reasons, even if its the EFT I wont mind. These two are the two best 4.5 fighters out there and would make awesome wingmen to the Mighty MKI.

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## Contract Killer

Karthic Sri said:


> Though I personally like Rafale for whatever reasons, even if its the EFT I wont mind. These two are the two best 4.5 fighters out there and would make awesome wingmen to the Mighty MKI.


 
Or better we make it 50-50.

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## foxbat

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?


 



Varad said:


> *THATS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT INDIAN DIPLOMACY.*


 
No sir.. Thats what I love about Indian Economy.. (nazar na lage)

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## SpArK

Nothing comes closer to this one..

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## Varad

foxbat said:


> No sir.. Thats what I love about Indian Economy.. (nazar na lage)


 
Well said bro. without our economy we would have been no where.


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## SpArK

livefist.

*FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Left Behind
*

It's official. France's Dassault Aviation and the European consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon move to the next level on the IAF M-MRCA selection process. Both companies have confirmed that their programme teams have been asked to be at the MoD/Air HQ tomorrow for a meeting where the process will be taken forward. This is, in effect, the downselect that you've been hearing about so much. More shortly. It must be said that it was TimesNOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry who first reported that the Rafale and Typhoon led the competition.
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

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## KS

Contract Killer said:


> Or better we make it 50-50.


 
Thats not happening as repeatedly confirmed by MOD



foxbat said:


> No sir.. Thats what I love about Indian Economy.. (nazar na lage)


 
_Panam Paathalam varaikum paayum_ - The influence of money extends deep even in Hell.

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## SpArK

Livefist: FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Left Behind

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## tallboy123

Now US can go and get signed all those CISMOA,EUMA,CEMA,PUMA,REEMA,KAMA from libya and sell them!!!!!!

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Hoorrrrraaaaay !!!!!




Go Indian Mod Babus , Go !!!  Speed it up and Make the country proud

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## KS

Once again I'm asking - Has the MoD confirmed the news ??? 

Dont want to look like a joker if this turns out to be yet another hoax.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

going back to the Indian MMRCA competition thread after six months ......Debate reignited


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Once again I'm asking - Has the MoD confirmed the news ???
> 
> Dont want to look like a joker if this turns out to be yet another hoax.


 
The vendors spoke .. Live fist and saurabh joshi reported... i dont think it can back track...

Also PDF is the first forum to break the news.. i mean this early after saurabh posted it stratspost... BR is just catching up now... even i posted first there...LOL

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## KS

SpArK said:


> The vendors spoke .. Live fist and saurabh joshi reported... i dont think it can back track...
> 
> Also PDF is the first forum to break the news.. i mean this early after saurabh posted it stratspost... BR is just catching up now... even i posted first there...LOL


 
Cool.

Whats the reaction of those who were left behind ? Any official responses on their course of action ?


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## Manas

> India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist



*Don't forget the presence of EF guys, *

Anyways Rafale is the best among the bunch, but there are other issues.

And EF isn't too far from Rafale.

I think we are buying EF.I don't know


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## Contract Killer

Indian Govt. has balls......................

After this...........US reaction

1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
5. Bla Bla Bla...................
6. US Ambassador Resigns.

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## airuah

guess the time for closing the MMRCA thread is drawing near


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Cool.
> 
> Whats the reaction of those who were left behind ? Any official responses on their course of action ?


 

It will take time for them to evaluate the decision and comment upon that... They indeed are participants in other tendors and deals.. nothing of a high can be expected... we are just playing by rules.. If at all rafale was discarded they were the ones who were expected to make a cry... now its between europeans to settle. Whoever gives a better deal gets the contract.. and yes we are the real winners... and US can go sell falcons and hornets to aussies or arabs..


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## jha

SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is *jha* ,DBC and Co.



I am so sad... I always wanted F-16 to win..Sasta aur tikaoo..

On a serious note: Good selection by MoD..Best two aircrafts in the fray have been shortlisted..Congrats to all the Indians..

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## GORKHALI

Just completed this one in nick of time

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## SpArK

Contract Killer said:


> Indian Govt. has balls......................
> 
> After this...........US reaction
> 
> 1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
> 2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
> 3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
> 4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
> 5. Bla Bla Bla...................


 
They have big deals coming.. we will be buying Helis and transport aircrafts worth billions.

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## KS

Contract Killer said:


> Indian Govt. has balls......................
> 
> After this...........US reaction
> 
> 1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
> 2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
> 3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
> 4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
> 5. Bla Bla Bla...................


 


145 M777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J , possibly the Apache helis and Chinooks too - US happy

On a lighter note - we have once again proved ourselves as evil Chanakiya Bhartis who took the help of US in the nuclear deal and dumped them both in nuclear trade and MRCA tender

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## SpArK

jha said:


> I am so sad... I always wanted F-16 to win..Sasta aur tikaoo..
> 
> On a serious note: Good selection by MoD..Best two aircrafts in the fray have been shortlisted..Congrats to all the Indians..


 
If you want F-16s move to UAE or to neighbourhood.. we are french fry loving , french kiss obsessed crazzy lot.

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## KS

SpArK said:


> It will take time for them to evaluate the decision and comment upon that... They indeed are participants in other tendors and deals.. nothing of a high can be expected... we are just playing by rules.. If at all rafale was discarded they were the ones who were expected to make a cry... now its between europeans to settle. Whoever gives a better deal gets the contract.. and yes we are the real winners... *and US can go sell falcons and hornets to aussies or arabs.*.


 
True that.

There are enough 'allies' in all continents to buy their products left right and centre.

Leave India alone.


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## metro

*Oh.. finally some fresh news to see. After a long long wait. *

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## Urbanized Greyhound

So now technical bids over and commercial and strategic choices to be evaluated by the MoD . I wonder if the IAF technical committee would reveal if they found any particular aircraft amongst the two . Eurofighter or Rafale ...superior to the other , or more compatible with our requirements ?


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## jha

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?


 
What do you think of this..?

777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy

PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.

Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy

Additional Scorpene,Mirage upg +P-75I + FREMM - France happy

Eurofighter Typhoon as MRCA- EU Happy...


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## Contract Killer

metro said:


> *Oh.. finally some fresh news to see. After a long long wait. *


 
*Really... I agree.*


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## jha

SpArK said:


> If you want F-16s move to UAE or to neighbourhood.. we are french fry loving , french kiss obsessed crazzy lot.


 
EUROFIGHTER all the way..I now support EF...

On a serious note: I just wanted this thing to get over...You seem to have taken my fun posts seriously..

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## Ajaxpaul

This is dassault's last hope and i hope that we make their hope into reality


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## tallboy123

this news would be true soon

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## koushik

An ideal response by IAF and Indian MoD to guys like Macho Man and other anti-indian members.My Indian Brothers what do u say?

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## KS

jha said:


> Additional Scorpene,Mirage upg +P-75I + FREMM - France happy
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon as MRCA- EU Happy...


 
Boohooo. But I will not be happy. 

Seriously, why should we give the French the Frigate tender. We are ourselves capable of building Stealth Frigates.

Maybe we can partner the EADS in UCAV development and lets not forget the A-400 Refueller bids.



jha said:


> EUROFIGHTER all the way..I now support EF...
> 
> On a serious note:* I just wanted this thing to get over*...You seem to have taken my fun posts seriously..


 
True - this tamasha needs to get over soon and order for one fighter needs be given solidly.

EF or Rafale - both rocks and will be the best fighter in this region till PAKFA comes.


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## jha

*EF all the way..*- Better of the two..

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## SpArK

So N-MRCA will be Rafale too, i guess.. the bloody thing can carry even a nuclear bomb- ASMP ( strategic command might be interested in 40 ), 

Snecma- kAveri will speed up, RBE-2 Aesa variant maybe on LCA, nEUROn elements on aura UCAV, ....

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## Contract Killer

Yeaa....... EuroFighter all the way.


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## jha

*RAFALE Killers ...*

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## KS

SpArK said:


> So N-MRCA will be Rafale too, i guess.. the bloody thing can carry even a nuclear bomb- ASMP ( strategic command might be interested in 40 ),
> 
> Snecma- kAveri will speed up, RBE-2 Aesa variant maybe on LCA, nEUROn elements on aura UCAV, ....


 
Even the EF is nuke capable. The thing is only if they are willing to share the capability with us.

Though I'm sure both will bend over backwards to get this deal now.

Expect more sweeteners like the ones you mentioned, co-production offers, 5 th partner bla bla ba.


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## SpArK

jha said:


> EUROFIGHTER all the way..I now support EF...
> 
> On a serious note: I just wanted this thing to get over...You seem to have taken my fun posts seriously..


 

... its just that i am a bit over excited... been hearing about this sh!t for sometime. each day when i log in here , waited for something of good. So its understandable....

And u are into EF now... the pricey thing which even the brits dont want???

Thing about this Rafale exclusive fighter of French , India and Brasil .. Brasils gonna buy Pak-fa anyway.. so its kinda exclusive club.. u see..

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## GORKHALI

*DESKTOP GREETINGS TO ALL RAFALE LOVERS FROM SABER TOOTH* (A Frnd Of Mine)

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## kingdurgaking

US contenders would have been in a state of shock.. so far we have lived without US support in military regime.. i always dont want critical equipment from US..


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## Contract Killer

*I am loving it......................... Don,t want to leave the party.*

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## metro

*Whats's with this never ending EF vs Rafael debate..
Man, you just mention MMRCA once, and both sides come up with their aircrafts for dogfighting..*


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## SpArK

jha said:


> *RAFALE Killers ...*


 
hey all the fighters they have built and will ever build is there..

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## Humanist

*At last our torture is over*... Breathe easy now...

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## KS

metro said:


> *Whats's with this never ending EF vs Rafael debate..
> Man, you just mention MMRCA once, and both sides come up with their aircrafts for dogfighting..*


 
Actually first it was Rafale vs EF (Sancho vs Lt.Prateek) then it became Rafale vs F-18 (Sancho vs DBC) and then finally it has become Rafale vs anyone

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## WHITESMOKE

yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.. made my day  So finally after suuuuuuuch a loooooooooong wait we have best 2.. And the best thing is... they are best 2..


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## jha

EF cockpit..

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## kingdurgaking

Humanist said:


> *At last our torture is over*... Breathe easy now...


 
Torchers of torchers.. an irritation speculations.. and whole lot of $hit

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------




jha said:


> EF cockpit..


 
EFT cockpit is definitely the best of all the contenders .. they have star war cockpits...


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## Contract Killer

Some one has Weed............ I need some today


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Just Imagine these birds on our North -eastern frontier flying in tandem 






Tornado , *Eurofighter* and *MKI* 






Tornado , *Eurofighter* and *MKI *

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## kingdurgaking

Karthic Sri said:


> Actually first it was Rafale vs EF (Sancho vs Lt.Prateek) then it became Rafale vs F-18 (Sancho vs DBC) and then finally it has become Rafale vs anyone


 
That is because all of us are pissed.. we have come to a level just choose one god damn craft..


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## KS

jha said:


> EF cockpit..





kingdurgaking said:


> EFT cockpit is definitely the best of all the contenders .. they have star war cockpits...


 
bahhhhh

Nothing in front of this - one of the best, if not the best cockpit designs.

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## jha

Karthic Sri said:


> Actually first it was Rafale vs EF (Sancho vs Lt.Prateek) then it became Rafale vs F-18 (Sancho vs DBC) and then finally it has become Rafale vs anyone



Nobody else has enjoyed this more than me..Many members were shocked when i said F-16 is my favorite...


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## metro

hmmm said:


> Congress taking revenge on USA for wikileaks by rejecting its planes.


 
Haha... that was good.


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## SpArK

*Libya: 3 Rafale - Eurofighter 0​*






This time, we would see what they would see. *Think about it: the Eurofighter Typhoon finally committed to a theater of operations, Libya, by the Royal Air Force and Italian Air Force. The opportunity was too good to try to play the hunter developed by BAe, EADS and Finmeccanica, and compare it to a Rafale already used him in Afghanistan since 2007. Fans of Hunter Germano-Italo-Hispano-British (photo EADS) licking their chops at the thought of seeing the toy in action, the detractors of the camera in France, many predicted a total flop in this plane ever tested in real combat conditions.
*

*Bottom line: there is no comparison. If the trade fight is for now in favor of the Eurofighter, with its export orders in Saudi Arabia and Austria, the Rafale is clearly more responsive and more effective than its competitor in the Libyan theater. The French plane multiplies reconnaissance and ground attack, proving his abilities every day "multirole". The Eurofighter Typhoon British themselves, confined to air superiority missions of questionable utility, aviation Gaddafi being pinned to the ground after the embargo or degummed strikes by the coalition.
*




*Developed during the Cold War from the perspective of air intercept Soviet fighters, the Eurofighter has had to initiate a molt to the painful nature of modern multirole fighter, large aircraft capable of hitting the ground, air to air combat, and recognition. The problem is that according to the NAO, the British equivalent of the court of accounts, it was not until 2018 and spend 560 million pounds for the Typhoon can effectively carry out strikes on the ground. Meanwhile, its capabilities - good, at first - pure air combat are useless, or nearly so. The fact that the last Libyan fighter taking off - before being degummed, soon back on the ground by a French AASM missile - or an old Yugoslav Galeb shows that for the dual hi-tech and Top Gun will require ironing.*

*British side, what are the good old Tornado (pictured above, EADS) that the job in "delivering" Missile Storm Shadow (MBDA), English version Scalp missiles on targets identified by the coalition. Bad language note that the Eurofighter will perhaps be more appropriate at weddings of Prince William 
*


Libye : Rafale 3


bad translation to be noted.


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## kingdurgaking

One of the main reason for restriction of US birds will be ToT and EUMA.... which these two birds give in full ToT and no monitoring

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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Torchers of torchers.. an irritation speculations.. and whole lot of $hit
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> EFT cockpit is definitely the best of all the contenders .. they have star war cockpits...



Dont forget the star war Helmets..Plus best Radar of the lot..


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## koushik

I think selecting the Rafale would be much better.currently the Rafale are powered by engines which produce 80.8KN thrust and the Kaveri produces 81kn thrust.so kaveri can be integrated in the rafale.the french proposed that they could fit rafale with Kaveri Engines if it is selected by IAF


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## SpArK

jha said:


> EF cockpit..


 
what is this????? looks like Maruti-800 dashboard with LCD display TV

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## KS

SpArK said:


> *Libya: 3 Rafale - Eurofighter 0*
> 
> Libye : Rafale 3



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/99142-effect-libyan-airstrikes-mrca-deal.html



SpArK said:


> what is this????? looks like Maruti-800 dashboard with LCD display TV


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## kingdurgaking

by the way US must be happy that Russians have lost and Russians are happy that US has lost.....

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## KS

kingdurgaking said:


> by the way US must be happy that Russians have lost and Russians are happy that US has lost.....


 
And we are happy *both* lost

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## jha

Two of the best Air-superiority Fighters in the world in IAF colors.. EF and MKI...


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## kingdurgaking

koushik said:


> I think selecting the Rafale would be much better.currently the Rafale are powered by engines which produce 80.8KN thrust and the Kaveri produces 81kn thrust.so kaveri can be integrated in the rafale.the french proposed that they could fit rafale with Kaveri Engines if it is selected by IAF


 
It is not only thrust but thrust to weight ratio is also important


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## anathema

SpArK said:


> what is this????? looks like Maruti-800 dashboard with LCD display TV


 
Priceless ....i have been out of action for so long....glad to be back in the nick of time...


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> what is this????? looks like Maruti-800 dashboard with LCD display TV


 
PJ... but every one knows which has the best cockpit


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## jha

SpArK said:


> what is this????? looks like Maruti-800 dashboard with LCD display TV



Atleast better than AMBASSADOR ( Rafale ) Dashboard..


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## satishkumarcsc

I still am skepticalwhy the F 18 lost out. Eventhough I am a Rafale fanboy, F 18 is the only other bird I think is as capable as Rafale in all aspects. EF is an air-superiority fighter, but not a good multi-role fighter.


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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> It is not only thrust but thrust to weight ratio is also important


 


kingdurgaking said:


> PJ... but every one knows which has the best cockpit



I would have supported Rafale but i just dont like the fever that their under powered engines have caught- Getting stalled..


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## SpArK

I have added a POLL.. LOL


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> I still am skepticalwhy the F 18 lost out. Eventhough I am a Rafale fanboy, F 18 is the only other bird I think is as capable as Rafale in all aspects. EF is an air-superiority fighter, but not a good multi-role fighter.


 
EFT T-3 is a true multi role buddy... it has more performance than Rafale.. currently every thing on paper but.. 
As per the bidding 
EFT T-3 will have a good AESA radar than Rafale...


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## KS

satishkumarcsc said:


> I still am skepticalwhy the F 18 lost out. Eventhough I am a Rafale fanboy, F 18 is the only other bird I think is as capable as Rafale in all aspects. EF is an air-superiority fighter, but not a good multi-role fighter.


 
'Rumour' was that F-18 failed the high altitude tests in Leh as their engines and the airframe was designed keeping in mind that it is primarily a carrier borne fighter and was not optimised to be operated from such high altitudes.


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## Contract Killer

kingdurgaking said:


> by the way US must be happy that Russians have lost and Russians are happy that US has lost.....


 
Lol.....


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Atleast better than AMBASSADOR ( Rafale ) Dashboard..


 
Get in..... lets go for a ride...

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## Urbanized Greyhound

> Bottom line: there is no comparison. If the trade fight is for now in favor of the Eurofighter, with its export orders in Saudi Arabia and Austria, the Rafale is clearly more responsive and more effective than its competitor in the Libyan theater. The French plane multiplies reconnaissance and ground attack, proving his abilities every day "multirole". The Eurofighter Typhoon British themselves, confined to air superiority missions of questionable utility, aviation Gaddafi being pinned to the ground after the embargo or degummed strikes by the coalition.


*originally posted by Spark*



So this must mean if we go for the RAFALE we leave our air superiority duties principally to the MKI , and concentrate on Rafale for Ground attack and reconnaissance - use it in a multi -role . And Eurofighter is basically a air-superiority bird so the MKI makes that role redundant.


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## marcos98

Awesomest combo everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........

so happy.....
screw f16/18,
feeling sad for gripen


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## kingdurgaking

Now PAF must be relieved .. they can expect F-16IN from US... and they will be getting whole lot of goodies..


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## KS

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> So this must mean if we go for the RAFALE *we leave our air superiority duties principally to the MKI *, and concentrate on Rafale for Ground attack and reconnaissance - use it in a multi -role . And Eurofighter is basically a air-superiority bird so the MKI makes that role redundant.


 
No actually both MKI (after upgrade) and Rafale will be capable of *Air-Supremacy* missions and both will/can be used for Strike missions also.

Yeah but you can say MKI will be the Flagship fighter till the PAKFA comes.

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## jha

marcos98 said:


> Awesomest combo everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........
> 
> so happy.....
> screw f16/18,
> feeling sad for gripen


 
so happy.....
screw f16/18,
feeling sad for gripen n Rafale

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## Urbanized Greyhound

114 users viewing this thread


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## Major.

I feel rafael gets through bcoz of AESA, proven Air-Ground,unbelivable range,nuclear delivery, Already has infrastructure (miraje2000)...It is only with france, where as EF is wid Saudi so they may pass its weakness points to pakistan...But important point to note is Mr.P.V.Naik the present Air Chief had rejected Miraje2000 in 1980 in favour of Mig-23,27 whose was heading selection committee then and we know how these aircraft performed (with firing rockets these used flame out, remember kargil).......but now he has realized his mistake and given a chance to RAFALE....

Any one for EF plz state ur points...


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## rcrmj

I knew it```my bet is on EF2000!!!


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## jha

Karthic Sri said:


> No actually both MKI (after upgrade) and Rafale will be capable of *Air-Supremacy* missions and both will/can be used for Strike missions also.


 
Whatever..Be it MKI+EF or, MKI + RAFALE - I am not complaining..
This shortlist is enough to bring smile to the faces of Indians- At least I am smiling..


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## Humanist

*Dont know which one to choose in poll. .... I love both EF and Rafale..
Cant bear the pain of losing either of them...*

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## anathema

Frenchies have played it smart......they have linked the MMRCA deal to Mirage upgrades also & Kaveri/snecma integration....excellent way to position themseleves.....only French arrogance can make them loose the deal

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## The HBS Guy

*So it's going to be one of french wine and scotch whiskey.

Mauja hi mauja. *

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## KS

jha said:


> Whatever..Be it MKI+EF or, MKI + RAFALE - I am not complaining..
> This shortlist is enough to bring smile to the faces of Indians- *At least I am smiling..*


 
Abe count me in too.

These are the two best fighters available for sale and EF or Rafale - anything is better than what our neighbours have.


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## Contract Killer

Major. said:


> I feel rafael gets through bcozof AESA, proven Air-Ground,unbelivable range,nuclear delivery, Already has infrastructure (miraje2000)...It is only with france, where as EF is wid Saudi so they may pass its weakness points to pakistan...But important point to note is Mr.P.V.Naik the present Air Chief had rejected Miraje2000 in 1980 in favour of Mig-23,27 whose was heading selection committee then and we know how these aircraft performed (with firing rockets these used flame out, remember kargil).......but now he has realized his mistake and given a chance to RAFALE....
> 
> Any one for EF plz state ur points...


 
Enough of Point talks have been done. Now we need to wait till the final decision comes out. Both Fighters are the Best of 4.5 Gen.


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## jha

Major. said:


> I feel rafael gets through bcozof AESA, proven Air-Ground,unbelivable range,nuclear delivery, Already has infrastructure (miraje2000)...It is only with france, where as EF is wid Saudi so they may pass its weakness points to pakistan...But important point to note is Mr.P.V.Naik the present Air Chief had rejected Miraje2000 in 1980 in favour of Mig-23,27 whose was heading selection committee then and we know how these aircraft performed (with firing rockets these used flame out, remember kargil).......but now he has realized his mistake and given a chance to RAFALE....
> 
> Any one for EF plz state ur points...



I feel EF gets through because of Much better Radar,Partnership,More capable METEOR ,Nuclear delivery capable and Supercruise..Its engines rae not under powered and surprisingly do not get stalled..

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## jha

Say NO to

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## Abingdonboy

This has been said so many times I'm reluctant to believe it is true. I hope it is though!!

+ shouldn't something as huge as this have some sort of news conference/ announcement?


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## KS

jha said:


> I feel EF gets through because of Much better Radar,Partnership,More capable METEOR ,Nuclear delivery capable and Supercruise..Its engines rae not under powered and surprisingly do not get stalled..


 
Rafale is also nuclear capable and no Rafale has crashed so far.

EFT will be better than Rafale only when the T-3 upgrades are finished as scheduled, but sadly none of the partnering nations are commiting to further orders and even cutting back on initial orders.


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## satishkumarcsc

Karthic Sri said:


> 'Rumour' was that F-18 failed the high altitude tests in Leh as their engines and the airframe was designed keeping in mind that it is primarily a carrier borne fighter and was not optimised to be operated from such high altitudes.


 
I dont buy that. They have been operating the C/D models in Switzerland for years. So those must have been in their minds. And the Ge-414 is a derivative of the 404 used in the LCA and is going to be fitted in the Tejas MK-2.


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## WHITESMOKE

We are on PDF and no Pakistani friend congratulating us... Its bad.. See we have left all the F16s for them...

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## indianpatriot

DASSAULT MIRAGE 2000IN is a formidable aircraft that played key role duriNG kARGIL Conflict..now Rafale should come...


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## kingdurgaking

EADS has been helping LCA in all fields and they are happy to have us our partners... they also posses some of the best technologies..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> I feel EF gets through because of Much better Radar,Partnership,More capable METEOR ,Nuclear delivery capable and Supercruise..Its engines rae not under powered and surprisingly do not get stalled..


 
On radar front Rafale is doing fine ..also remember active stealth, meteor --well france already has it, partnership with lots of vendors, will anybody care about anything, can we stop a possible deal of Italy to an adversary or maybe even spain to adversary.. i guess not... 


Rafale is better in commanality, weaponsload, range, external stations, combat radius, oh yes it also supercruises and is cheaper to maintain and procure..

Who knows they may even transfer 40 of them from their squads to fill the gap between production.

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## jha

Karthic Sri said:


> Rafale is also nuclear capable and no Rafale has crashed so far.
> 
> EFT will be better than Rafale only when the T-3 upgrades are finished as scheduled, but sadly none of the partnering nations are commiting to further orders and even cutting back on initial orders.



I know, It feels amusing when everybody is trying to convince you what you already believe in..


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## hembo

Rafale!!!!

- Delta wing design (similar to LCA & AMCA)..

- Promises of full ToT

- SNECMA-Kaveri JV

- Previous experience with Mirage...

Why am I not surprised..

Thanks Benny boy for the good news after almost painful awaiting..

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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> EADS has been helping LCA in all fields and they are happy to have us our partners... they also posses some of the best technologies..


 
oh yes... guess uncle sam doesnt get in middle giving orders to brits.


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## Contract Killer

F16 with block 52 then Block 72 then Block 82......


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## Mirza Jatt

*EUROFIGHTER ALL THE WAY........* just wait for the next news. guys...

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## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> EADS has been helping LCA in all fields and they are happy to have us our partners... they also posses some of the best technologies..


 
Well Dassault were our first consultant...and above all Snecma is sharing engine tech with us. Better they even offered to fit the Kaveiri-ECO engine in Rafale. So I think Rafale is a better deal.

Why do you think the RBE-2 AESA is not as good as the Capto AESA? And why did you fel that France pulled out of the Typhoon programme?


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## Break the Silence

> Who knows they may even transfer 40 of them from their squads to fill the gap between production


Nothing less than brand new will suits... well , my vote has kept Rafale ahead of ef.


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## jha

Contract Killer said:


> F16 with block 52 then Block 72 then Block 82......



I'll file a PIL in support of F-16...
Our pilots have got enough experience on these..


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## GORKHALI

*Sorry but couldn't hold my emotion for Rafale *

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## SpArK

jha said:


> Say NO to


 
Yup say no to US MC D

Say yes to


----------



## Contract Killer

jha said:


> I'll file a PIL in support of F-16...
> Our pilots have got enough experience on these..


 
Lol............


----------



## hembo

Can someone post a technical comparision between EF and Rafale?

I thought EF was designed as air superiority jet, how would it fare in a Multi role?

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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well Dassault were our first consultant...and above all Snecma is sharing engine tech with us. Better they even offered to fit the Kaveiri-ECO engine in Rafale. So I think Rafale is a better deal.
> 
> Why do you think the RBE-2 AESA is not as good as the Capto AESA? And why did you fel that France pulled out of the Typhoon programme?


 
Dassualt where and giving second hand technologies.. Snecma is not giving engine tech??... they are asking for life long royalty..

Above all RBE-2 AESA is just 800 modules captor is over and above 1500 modules...


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## Urbanized Greyhound

There may be one point which has been overlooked - We will doubtless receive the carrier version of the aircraft EF/RAFALE we choose for the IN . So EF carrier version is supposed to be heavier and unsuitable for CATOBAR configs unlike RAFALE and Super Hornet . The first ship of the Vikrant Class Aircraft is supposed to be STOBAR but the second ship is supposed to utilize "steam catapults " ( IAC 2 ) . This might be another small factor in the Mod's decision in going for Rafale .


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## jha

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well Dassault were our first consultant...and above all Snecma is sharing engine tech with us. Better they even offered to fit the Kaveiri-ECO engine in Rafale. So I think Rafale is a better deal.


 
You should think again ... Remember Shakti for Dhruv.. I am really skeptical about their so called ToT..



> Who knows they may even transfer 40 of them from their squads to fill the gap between production.



Who knows they might be tricking us in getting their cR@ppY fighters which no one wants to buy..

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## GORKHALI

*FROM FLIGHT GLOBAL*

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## hembo

Indian Jatt said:


> *EUROFIGHTER ALL THE WAY........* just wait for the next news. guys...


 
Nehi paaji!!! Aisa mat kaho paaji!!! Ye nehi ho satka.... You cannot be more wrong paajiiiii.... Paajiiii.. paajiiiii..... (Dharmedra replying)

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## SpArK

*EF's attack role
*
RAF Eurofighters make devastating attack ? on Parliament ? The Register

*EF's cheaper price
*

RAF Typhoon jets draw MPs' flak over £20bn price tag | UK news | The Guardian

EF's supporting role

Support for Eurofighter Typhoon Criticized in UK Reports: AINonline

EF's spare part network... 

RAF Top Guns grounded by lack of spare parts for new Typhoon jets - mirror.co.uk

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## Contract Killer

hembo said:


> Nehi paaji!!! Aisa mat kaho paaji!!! Ye nehi ho satka.... You cannot be more wrong paajiiiii.... Paajiiii.. paajiiiii..... (Dharmedra replying)


 
Aisa hi hoga Bhai... Aisa hi hoga.............. EF hi aayega. Either it is 50-50 or it is EF.


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## Mirza Jatt

hembo said:


> Nehi paaji!!! Aisa mat kaho paaji!!! Ye nehi ho satka.... You cannot be more wrong paajiiiii.... Paajiiii.. paajiiiii..... (Dharmedra replying)




I am not wrong buddy....TYPHOON is much better bird..just wait for the finals results..

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## Gene

are bhai,,i can't find any thing in the news channels !!!


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## Nirvana

*Hey Guyz , Just came Home Logged In - Is This News Really True , can Someone confirm THis ???*


Thank God They Didnt ShortList F - 18 ......F 16 And Mig 35 Were Out Of Question , And No need For Gripen [ we Gonna Have LCA Mk 2 soon ]

But is This News True  ????

If True , MoD Should Go For RAFALE


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## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> Dassualt where and giving second hand technologies.. Snecma is not giving engine tech??... they are asking for life long royalty..
> 
> Above all RBE-2 AESA is just 800 modules captor is over and above 1500 modules...



Is the Captor on board?...the RBE2 is already onboard. EF still needs to have a lot of technologies to be tested in it. Yes will turn out to be the most capable 4+ gen aircraft. But it was designed to be an Air-Superiority fighter, but th Rafale was designed to be multi-role ground up.

And Snecma are providing their core to be fitted in Kaveri. And I dont deny that. But we need some help till we end up making our 100% indigenous products. Dassault provided consultation for the Basic design of LCA. EADS were helping in fine tuning. So there was no involvement of tehnology...it is more like asking the nearest person to you 'oes it look straight to you?".


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## blain2

Karthic Sri said:


> Rafale is also nuclear capable and no Rafale has crashed so far.
> 
> EFT will be better than Rafale only when the T-3 upgrades are finished as scheduled, but sadly none of the partnering nations are commiting to further orders and even cutting back on initial orders.


*
Rafale Lost near Pakistan*
Rafale lost near Pakistan: key.Aero, Military Aviation

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## Tejas-MkII

is it too early to celebrate or hard to believe ..i don't know.. but i will wait litle more for MoD statement.


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## GORKHALI

*BLACK RAFALE IN DUBAI AERO SHOW 2009. MY PERSONAL FAVORITE ,HOW ABOUT YOU ???*

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## Urbanized Greyhound

> Sir Glenn Torpy began by saying The Eurofighter Typhoon is an excellent aircraft. It will be the backbone of the Royal Air Force along with the JSF. When speaking about the aircrafts performance in overseas trials he said We had six aircraft in Turkey and the [Eurofighter Typhoon] has proved itself against all other fighters including F-15, F-16 and FA-18.
> 
> He went on to say It is usually the first aircraft to take off and the last to come back because it has good fuel efficiency, higher than any other aircraft in the inventory barring F-22. No other aircraft performs better at 40,000 ft plus at low altitudes, Typhoon is a match for Su-30.

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## satishkumarcsc

jha said:


> You should think again ... Remember Shakti for Dhruv.. I am really skeptical about their so called ToT..
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows they might be tricking us in getting their cR@ppY fighters which no one wants to buy..



THe Shakthi Engine is the Ardiden-H. thy just added some extra power sacrificing it for the fuel consumption. So it was never supposed to be a full ToT engine. They are businessmen and we got fooled by their marketing.


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## marcos98

from LIVEFIST:
Livefist: FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Out!



> It's official! France's Dassault Aviation Rafale and the European consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon move to the next level on the Indian Air Force M-MRCA fighter selection process. Both companies have confirmed that their programme teams have been asked to be at the MoD/Air HQ tomorrow for a meeting where the process will be taken forward. While the two companies have been, in effect, asked to extend the validity of their commercial bids, the other four contenders -- Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed-Martin's F-16, UAC's MiG-35 and Saab's Gripen -- haven't received a message or a letter. This is, in effect, the downselect that you've been hearing about so much. More shortly. It must be said that it was TimesNOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry who first reported that the Rafale and Typhoon led the competition, followed by several posts here on Livefist which suggested that the two big European twins were likely to make the semi-final cut.
> 
> What has happened today is basically scenario 2 in my post from earlier today. The MoD's decision to issue requests for bid validity extension to only two of the six companies -- and by default allow the commercial bids of the other four to expire tomorrow -- could be problematic, but this isn't something the IAF and MoD haven't accounted for. This could be the most interesting phase of the competition, since the four contenders knocked out of the fray will be wondering why in hell the government waited till the end to shaft them.
> 
> Livefist has reported extensively on the apprehensions that could guide the Indian government's final decision against the Americans and Russians. Let's just remind ourselves, however, that is a down-select. The process of selection is not nearly over. This is, however, the first substantive decision that has been taken in the competition, and the only one so far that narrows the board. Stay tuned for what promises to be a huge amount of action from here on out.

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## SpArK

blain2 said:


> *
> Rafale Lost near Pakistan*
> Rafale lost near Pakistan: key.Aero, Military Aviation


 
That was due to incorrect fuel information.. has been discussed , was mainly pilot error..

Not like the EF killing a saudi pilot.


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## praveen007

hey i was the first peson who had reported that mmrca is going to b short listed in last week of april or in first week of may in my post in mmrca thread.

New Delhi: The race for
the $
10.6-billion contract for
126
medium multi role
combat
aircraft (MMRCA) is going
to gain
momentum with the
names of
the shortlisted
candidates
expected to be
announced by
the first week of May .
This would follow the
concretisation of offset
policy by


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## GORKHALI

blain2 said:


> *
> Rafale Lost near Pakistan*
> Rafale lost near Pakistan: key.Aero, Military Aviation


 
That wuz a *RAFALE M *


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## hembo

Indian Jatt said:


> I am not wrong buddy....TYPHOON is much better bird..just wait for the finals results..


 
On a serious note, it's not about which is the best bird. It's about which fits IAF's bill the most and MoD/ IAF's future indigenization aspirations and which party will come in more handy with those aspirations.

It's not exactly a two + two = four kinda equation.

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## Abingdonboy

The timing is also very interesting- just the other day ALL the price hiccups of the C-17 deal evaporated!!


I actually think for once GoI is playing a good geopolitical game.

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## marcos98

does anyone has tip on AESA development......


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Is the Captor on board?...the RBE2 is already onboard. EF still needs to have a lot of technologies to be tested in it. Yes will turn out to be the most capable 4+ gen aircraft. But it was designed to be an Air-Superiority fighter, but th Rafale was designed to be multi-role ground up.
> 
> And Snecma are providing their core to be fitted in Kaveri. And I dont deny that. But we need some help till we end up making our 100% indigenous products. Dassault provided consultation for the Basic design of LCA. EADS were helping in fine tuning. So there was no involvement of tehnology...it is more like asking the nearest person to you 'oes it look straight to you?".


 
First of all i am not against Rafale.. but the technology that EFT will get is more powerful than Rafale.. EADS are already developing CAPTOR on there own money... and they have already validated AESA in 2009...

It is not Dassault but BAe provided the consultation... Dassault was called in for FBW where they offered Analog one.. and we rejected it...


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## Mirza Jatt

hembo said:


> On a serious note, it's not about which is the best bird. It's about which fits IAF's bill the most and MoD/ *IAF's future indigenization aspirations *and which party will come in more handy with those aspirations.
> 
> It's not exactly a two + two = four kinda equation.


 
thats the reason I say ET.

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## SpArK

*Thales prepares the future in thinking over future radar technologies
*


Thales intends to maintain its position as a European pioneer in Aesa radar technology. This place, gained thanks to the development of AESA version of the Rafale front tip radar , will materialize in August, with deliveries of the first RBE2-AESA in standard production.

Program:

If its RBE2-AESA enters in industrial phase, *Thales intends to maintain its lead in providing some technological bricks considered crucial to broaden the scope of active antennas. This new roadmap is built around two key technologies: gallium nitride (GaN), a broadband semiconductor called to prevail for future emission-reception modules of radars with active antenna, and silicon-germanium (SiGe), a low power semiconductor, whose use in the control floors of the beam of active antennas will significantly reduce their size.*


*Compared to the current gallium arsenide (GaAs), GaN offers much more power and works with very large bandwidth. This power, coupled with a sharp reduction in heat loss, lets consider very compact antennas since it will be possible to obtain the same power with smaller modules. The SiGe, itself, allows to regroup on a same low-power component several functions of phase control and amplitude control, reducing the overall size of the antenna.
Potential applications are diverse: In the medium term, it is expected that Rafale&#8217;s RBE2 and SPECTRA share the same antennas. In the longer term, one considers the application of conform antennas to the fuselage and their use as a single &#8220;entity&#8221; which would act as radar and electronic warfare, 360 degrees around the aircraft.*



The International Rafale forum &bull; View topic - AESA news

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## blackops

not sure if this pic is authentic or not but this will happen every time when the rafale will go against the ef

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## marcos98



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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> *Thales prepares the future in thinking over future radar technologies
> *
> 
> 
> Thales intends to maintain its position as a European pioneer in Aesa radar technology. This place, gained thanks to the development of AESA version of the Rafale front tip radar , will materialize in August, with deliveries of the first RBE2-AESA in standard production.
> 
> Program:
> 
> If its RBE2-AESA enters in industrial phase, *Thales intends to maintain its lead in providing some technological bricks considered crucial to broaden the scope of active antennas. This new roadmap is built around two key technologies: gallium nitride (GaN), a broadband semiconductor called to prevail for future emission-reception modules of radars with active antenna, and silicon-germanium (SiGe), a low power semiconductor, whose use in the control floors of the beam of active antennas will significantly reduce their size.*
> 
> 
> *Compared to the current gallium arsenide (GaAs), GaN offers much more power and works with very large bandwidth. This power, coupled with a sharp reduction in heat loss, lets consider very compact antennas since it will be possible to obtain the same power with smaller modules. The SiGe, itself, allows to regroup on a same low-power component several functions of phase control and amplitude control, reducing the overall size of the antenna.
> Potential applications are diverse: In the medium term, it is expected that Rafale&#8217;s RBE2 and SPECTRA share the same antennas. In the longer term, one considers the application of conform antennas to the fuselage and their use as a single &#8220;entity&#8221; which would act as radar and electronic warfare, 360 degrees around the aircraft.*
> 
> 
> 
> The International Rafale forum &bull; View topic - AESA news


 
This is what we will get with Rafale with EFT we will get GaN


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## kingdurgaking

blackops said:


> not sure if this pic is authentic or not but this will happen every time when the rafale will go against the ef


 
whole world knows EFT kicks butt in air 2 air warfare...


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## Gene

so,we finally reached the end after 10 long years... !!


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## marcos98

BTW meteor on its way guys......cheerio


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## Tejas-MkII

kingdurgaking said:


> First of all i am not against Rafale.. but the technology that EFT will get is more powerful than Rafale.. EADS are already developing CAPTOR on there own money... and they have already validated AESA in 2009...
> 
> It is not Dassault but BAe provided the consultation... Dassault was called in for FBW where they offered Analog one.. and we rejected it...



Yes EF have powerfull sensors which make a good air-superiority fighter and Rafale have passive sensors whick make a good strike fighter.
but if we take weaker points of both the jet tiffy's weaker points(A2G) are more weaker then Raffy's weaker points(A2A). 

Y


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## blackops

kingdurgaking said:


> whole world knows EFT kicks butt in air 2 air warfare...


 
i think so its the ef that has been locked by the rafale may be am wrong or the pic is bogus


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> whole world knows EFT kicks butt in air 2 air warfare...


 
When.,.. where... maybe of tornadoes.. they have big ... not the Rafale's..


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## kingdurgaking

Gene said:


> so,we finally reached the end after 10 long years... !!


 
Action is going to start from now on wards....


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## kingdurgaking

Tejas-MkII said:


> Yes EF have powerfull sensors which make a good air-superiority fighter and Rafale have passive sensors whick make a good strike fighter.
> but if we take weaker points of both the jet tiffy's weaker points(A2G) are more weaker then Raffy's weaker points(A2A).
> 
> Y



EFT has promised a good A2G with tranche 3... they have to deliver what it has bid.. they have no option..


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## SpArK

offtopic

Kochi Tuskers Kerala 6/4 (3.0/20 ov)

Are they going nuts over the news????


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## GORKHALI

*DONCHU BELIEVE IN SPARKY WORDS ??? NOW SEE IT WITH YA EYES*

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## Ajaxpaul

SpArK said:


> offtopic
> 
> Kochi Tuskers Kerala 6/4 (3.0/20 ov)
> 
> Are they going nuts over the news????


 
now its 12/6...WTF!!


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## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> First of all i am not against Rafale.. but the technology that EFT will get is more powerful than Rafale.. EADS are already developing CAPTOR on there own money... and they have already validated AESA in 2009...
> 
> It is not Dassault but BAe provided the consultation... Dassault was called in for FBW where they offered Analog one.. and we rejected it...


 
Still Rafale was dsigned as a multi-role fighter but EF was ddeveloped as a counter to the Su series.


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## Dash

Guys, I have a bit of apprehension here. I mean in all the cases we always here the Europeans get the deals or at least get close to teh deals, It happened with LCA Engine. Some theory will crop up and Americans will take the cake.....It can happen with MRCA too.

I will be happy if we select Rafale, however Yankees have a way of coming back in every deal. This is just initial rank up. *It doesnt mean that others are out of the deal*


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## foxbat

Has anyone thought of a split order so far??


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## GORKHALI

Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar - Thales

*Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar*(Straight from horse mouth)

Active Electronic Scanning in the RBE2 radar represents a major step in the evolution of radar technology. 

All radar functions are performed in the same flight: 

Air Defence
&#8226; Very long detection and track ranges
&#8226; Fully automatic, sorting and ranking of tracked targets
&#8226; Fully target tracks independent of search volume. 

Deep low-level penetration
&#8226; Automatic terrain following and avoidance 

Strike mission
&#8226; En Route update of target area situation
&#8226; High resolution imagery modes (SAR) - Designations 

Sea skimming attacks
&#8226; Detection and multi-tracking

Active electronic scanning makes it possible to switch radar modes quickly, thereby enabling operational functions to run simultaneously. 

AESA has incorporated expertise coming from the current RBE2 Rafale radar, in the tradition of electronic scanning array radar.
The RBE2 has been in production since 1997 and was combat proven in multinational operations in 2001.
It can be fitted on large or medium fighter aircraft. 


TECHNICAL FEATURES

Antenna block 
&#8226; Active electronic scanning
&#8226; Very low side and scattered lobes in azimuth and elevation
&#8226; Very high reliability (T/R modules) 

Active transmit / Receiver modules and exciter / Receiver 
&#8226; Multipole Waveforms
&#8226; Coherent X band frequency generation
&#8226; Excellent spectral purity
&#8226; Wide bandwidth
&#8226; Full monopulse
&#8226; MMIC/GaAs technologies 

Programmable signal processor and data processor
&#8226; Target detection and ECCM processing
&#8226; Fully programmable
&#8226; Anti-obsolescence solutions: open architecture - COTS components
&#8226; Tracking computation
&#8226; High resolution map generation


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## SpArK

foxbat said:


> Has anyone thought of a split order so far??


 
Yup 126 Rafale+ 134 rafale's..

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## Dash

foxbat said:


> Has anyone thought of a split order so far??



It was discussed several times that a split order is simply not feasible in this case....There will be many more losses than any advantage.


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## jha

foxbat said:


> Has anyone thought of a split order so far??



Kyun dara rahe ho bhaya..? No Split orders PILIZZZ...


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## satishkumarcsc

PANDORA said:


> *DONCHU BELIEVE IN SPARKY WORDS ??? NOW SEE IT WITH YA EYES*


 
Well try reading what he was pointing out. GaN is better than GaA anytime. because GaN has low power-High output when compare to GaA. Kingdurgaking is telling that Captor uses GaN instead of GaA.


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## Dash

SpArK said:


> Yup 126 Rafale+ 134 rafale's..



Got that from BR is it?


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## SpArK

Dash said:


> Guys, I have a bit of apprehension here. I mean in all the cases we always here the Europeans get the deals or at least get close to teh deals, It happened with LCA Engine. Some theory will crop up and Americans will take the cake.....It can happen with MRCA too.
> 
> I will be happy if we select Rafale, however Yankees have a way of coming back in every deal. This is just initial rank up. *It doesnt mean that others are out of the deal*


 
I think its too late ... French are too sensitive on these... i was expecting a French Cry if it was rejected..

Now i am interested in Mirage upgrades.. will it be scrapped??


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## JayAtl

Sad Sad day for me why did they select one aircraft that nobody wants other than French and in imminent bankruptcy and and the other which has huge spare parts issue to keep the supply chain going for its own eu partners? whaaaaa I wanted them to get F18. Oh well - congrats on finally making a decision of sorts!


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## SpArK

Dash said:


> Got that from BR is it?


 
nope... is it there???


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> Still Rafale was dsigned as a multi-role fighter but EF was ddeveloped as a counter to the Su series.


 
EFT T-3 is a multi role .... and that is what provided in the bid...


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## Al-Mulazim

bad choice..!!


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## GORKHALI

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well try reading what he was pointing out. GaN is better than GaA anytime. because GaN has low power-High output when compare to GaA. Kingdurgaking is telling that Captor uses GaN instead of GaA.


 
Till *GAN* comes to Existence say 2018 ,it will be long gone mate... Eurofighter is something ,that even its contributors are so reluctant to accept it,forget about upgrades..


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## SpArK

JayAtl said:


> Sad Sad day for me why did they select one aircraft that nobody wants other than *French and in imminent bankruptcy* and and the other which has huge spare parts issue to keep the supply chain going for its own eu partners? whaaaaa I wanted them to get F18. Oh well - congrats on finally making a decision of sorts!


 
Bankruptcy???

The Group is not exposed to any significant risk with regard to its borrowings and marketable securities. The Group's marketable securities portfolio mainly comprises short term monetary investments. The Group has no various investment (AMF reference) as of March 31, 2011.



Dassault Aviation - Quaterly information as of march 31, 2011 | Reuters

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------




Al-Mulazim said:


> bad choice..!!


 
You registered just to say this... welcome to the forum...


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## Abingdonboy

Al-Mulazim said:


> bad choice..!!


 
Care to explin??


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is jha ,DBC and Co.


 
Cool down mate!  Let's wait for something official, be it MoD, IAF, or any press release of the vendors.


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## Shastra

SpArK said:


> offtopic
> 
> Kochi Tuskers Kerala 6/4 (3.0/20 ov)
> 
> Are they going nuts over the news????


 
They were 11/6...


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## JayAtl

Contract Killer said:


> Indian Govt. has balls......................
> 
> After this...........US reaction
> 
> 1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
> 2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
> 3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
> 4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
> 5. Bla Bla Bla...................


 
keep you day job and stay out of foreign policy speculation.


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## satishkumarcsc

kingdurgaking said:


> EFT T-3 is a multi role .... and that is what provided in the bid...


 
EFT T-3 dosent exist yet. And AESA is not God sent.


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## DEMI GOD

FINALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY...atleast mod decided wt they want .....go rafale ,time to fly in Indian skies


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Cool down mate!  Let's wait for something official, be it MoD, IAF, or any press release of the vendors.


 
My man... You are back... it has caught like wild fire... 

even MoD cant do anything regarding it, or else antony wont be seeing Kerala ever again..

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## Contract Killer

JayAtl said:


> keep you day job and stay out of foreign policy speculation.


 
Why So? did i touch your paining nerve?


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## JayAtl

SpArK said:


> Bankruptcy???
> 
> The Group is not exposed to any significant risk with regard to its borrowings and marketable securities. The Group's marketable securities portfolio mainly comprises short term monetary investments. The Group has no various investment (AMF reference) as of March 31, 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Aviation - Quaterly information as of march 31, 2011 | Reuters
> 
> ...




was there not an article posted here-- speaking to the French aircraft that was not able to sell to anyone other than the French- had a huge investment from the French govt- infact it was teetering on its govt not being able to keep it propped up anymore ?


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## axisofevil

How come some idiots are rooting for Rafale simply because it looks good? Are you guys idiots? Choose a plane based on a multitude of factors, technology just being one. I hope we look at aircraft where we get to improve our existing aircraft industry.


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## marcos98

From BR -- still not officially confirmed but most likely it's the Rafale and Typhoon:



> The news, from what I am hearing is accurate ... Rafale and Eurofighter make the downselect. However, we will need to wait for an official Defence Ministry statement which may well come tomorrow.
> 
> May the best plane win though I am disheartened that my personal favourite, the Gripen, hasnt made the cut !
> 
> Thanks
> Vishnu Som
> Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
> NDTV

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## JayAtl

Contract Killer said:


> Why So? did i touch your paining nerve?


 
my '"paining nerve" does not exist- its my alert of 'stuck on stupid' radar that went off. you are ignorant if you think US policy is based off an aircraft deal while they have bigger military, strategic deals in place and interests with India.


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## satishkumarcsc

PANDORA said:


> Till *GAN* comes to Existence say 2018 ,it will be long gone mate... Eurofighter is something ,that even its contributors are so reluctant to accept it,forget about upgrades..


 
Well I think most of the LPI AESA radars use GaN in their antenna. GaA is rarely used.

perhaps in APG 63


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## marcos98

L1 (cheapest bidder) should win.

So, which is cheapest, the Rafale or the Typhoon? I don't know.
what say you???


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## SpArK

JayAtl said:


> was there not an article posted here-- speaking to the French aircraft that was not able to sell to anyone other than the French- had a huge investment from the French govt- infact it was teetering on its govt not being able to keep it propped up anymore ?


 
what more investment?? Its not in a developmental phase and also its not looking for F-35s like EF partners.. So they will do the investments for their own good..


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## jha

sancho said:


> Cool down mate!  Let's wait for something official, be it MoD, IAF, or any press release of the vendors.



Welcome sir..RAFALE fans were having tough time convincing every one of RAFALE's superiority,,

Too bad my two favorites F-16 and Mig-35 did not make the cut..

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## gaurish

Well Obama wont be able to create those jobs for americans that he intended to do with this deal........... Good job by keping out both US and Russia


----------



## Dash

SpArK said:


> I think its too late ... French are too sensitive on these... i was expecting a French Cry if it was rejected..
> 
> Now i am interested in Mirage upgrades.. will it be scrapped??



Mirage deal getting cancelled?, Doesnt make sense....See you are giving an indication as to why this is a critical stage. If Mirage upgrade is cancelled just because France gets MRCA then its a bad thing. Coz those fighters are still capable and can help us, from an economic and security POV.

I might sound a bit pessimistic right now, but its only coz I want France to win this. 

The only place US can bargain and I am sure they will is that they have economy of scale. Their bids are cheaper and thats a huge factor..


----------



## satishkumarcsc

axisofevil said:


> How come some idiots are rooting for Rafale simply because it looks good? Are you guys idiots? Choose a plane based on a multitude of factors, technology just being one. I hope we look at aircraft where we get to improve our existing aircraft industry.


 
No one is rooting for it because it looks good. Because it is the best out there. If you would ask me...I would have gone to the F 18 E/F and Rafale in split order. As it is not feasible Rafale and EFT were the obvious shortlist.


----------



## Contract Killer

JayAtl said:


> my '"paining nerve" does not exist- its my alert of 'stuck on stupid' radar that went off. you are ignorant if you think US policy is based off an aircraft deal while they have bigger military, strategic deals in place and interests with India.


 
Definitely i have touched it........ otherwise you would not have barked so loud. Anyway i don't need to explain as everyone here knows what drives US foreign policies and Strategies. So just keep ur f...k mouth shut. And don't bother us.


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## gaurish

satishkumarcsc said:


> No one is rooting for it because it looks good. Because it is the best out there. If you would ask me...I would have gone to the F 18 E/F and Rafale in split order. As it is not feasible Rafale and EFT were the obvious shortlist.


 
Split orders dont work welll........ You should just go for one full order


----------



## KS

satishkumarcsc said:


> I dont buy that. They have been operating the C/D models in Switzerland for years. So those must have been in their minds. And the Ge-414 is a derivative of the 404 used in the LCA and is going to be fitted in the Tejas MK-2.


 
Not only the engines, but also the payloads and airframe design play a role in that.


----------



## Dash

sancho said:


> Cool down mate!  Let's wait for something official, be it MoD, IAF, or any press release of the vendors.



Spot on Bro!....Its not official and I am sure Americans are closely watching it. The official confirmation "if it comes" saying these two are shortlisted then it will come with very strong explaination as to why it was rejected.


----------



## JayAtl

SpArK said:


> what more investment?? Its not in a developmental phase and also its not looking for F-35s like EF partners.. So they will do the investments for their own good..


* 
The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants*

The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billiona deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision. 

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobswhile recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale. 

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank. 

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says. 

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. *To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits. *Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts. 

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see." 

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.


----------



## SpArK

oops... 

3 hours back... 

whats happening with F-16s????

Pilot ejects as F-16 fighter jet crashes at Italian base


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## Contract Killer

SpArK said:


> oops...
> 
> 3 hours back...
> 
> whats happening with F-16s????
> 
> Pilot ejects as F-16 fighter jet crashes at Italian base


 
Moral down.................


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Karthic Sri said:


> Not only the engines, but also the payloads and airframe design play a role in that.


 
Yes I understand but remember the F 18 c/d have been operating in switzerland where the conditions are similar to leh.


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## bhagat

.............


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## JayAtl

Contract Killer said:


> Definitely i have touched it........ otherwise you would not have barked so loud. Anyway i don't need to explain as everyone here knows what drives US foreign policies and Strategies. So just keep ur f...k mouth shut. And don't bother us.


 
find me one other indian non newbie poster here who agrees with your moronic claim below that the US will react as such. go ahead appeal to any Indian to join that idiotic statement below. 



Contract Killer said:


> After this...........US reaction
> 
> 1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
> 2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
> 3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
> 4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
> 5. Bla Bla Bla...................


----------



## SpArK

*Eurofighter versus Rafale in India's $10.4-billion combat jet tender​*
New Delhi, April 27


It is now virtually an all-European battle for India's $10.4-billion order for 126 combat jets with the US and Russia almost out of the race after the defence ministry Wednesday asked EADS and Dassault to extend the validity of their commercial bids.

*With this indirect down select, it is almost clear that American majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin have not made the cut and neither have Sweden's SAAB and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in the tender for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), described as the "mother of all defence deals".
*

*An official announcement in this regard is expected Thursday from the defence ministry, an official told IANS.*

EADS has offered its Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault the Rafale for the tender issued in August 2007. Boeing had pitted the F/A-18, Lockheed Martin the F-16, UAC the MiG-35 and SAAB the Gripen against the two fighter jets that are now deemed to have cleared the technical evaluation completed by the IAF last March.


The commercial bids for the contract were to expire Thursday and had to be extended by the competing vendors on a request from the defence ministry.
"It (the down select) is not official yet. An announcement is likely to be made Thursday," the official said, when asked if EADS and Dassault are the only two firms to have been asked to extend the validity of their commercial bids.

The four-year contest for the Indian contract was hard fought by all the six vendors with "aggressive marketing" by them.
Except for EADS and UAC, all the other firms had offered and allowed joy rides by Indian politicians, movie stars and journalists during the biennial AeroIndia show held in February at Yelahanka air base in Bangalore in 2009 and 2011.


The tendering process itself was threatened earlier this year after the offset plans of the six firms went missing after a bureaucrat in the defence ministry lost the file while carrying it home and was later found on the roadside in south Delhi within a few hours.
A probe held by the defence ministry indicted the bureaucrat, but concluded that tender was not compromised by the official's lapse and decided to complete the process.

The deal, to be finalised this fiscal, will fetch India $5 billion investment in the form of 50 percent offsets, a clause that mandates the winning firm to plough back half the deal's worth to energise the Indian defence industry.

While the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, had pressed for the deal to be finalised by July this year, when his tenure ends, Defence Minister A.K. Antony had said during the AeroIndia show in February that the contract would be awarded before March 2012.

On Monday, Antony had also warned the army and air force top brass in their conferences being held here to be wary of "corrupt practices by vested interests in the garb of aggressive marketing" in some of the major defence deals that India was to sign this year, including the combat jet contract.
India has earmarked Rs.69,199 crore ($15 billion) for capital expenditure in the defence budget for 2011-12 in view of the major defence deals to be clinched this fiscal.


Eurofighter versus Rafale in India's $10.4-billion combat jet tender

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## KS

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yes I understand but remember the F 18 c/d have been operating in switzerland where the conditions are similar to leh.



Bro, here it is not individual perfomance that was considered, but how relatively it fared as compared to Rafale and EFT.

For example the F-18 might have taken off with 1500 kgs (just an example) while the Rafale and EFT might have taken off with 2000 and 2500 Kgs respectively.

So while the Swiss may be satisfied with a 1500 kg payload, according to IAF it may be considered a failure on a relative scale of Rafale and EFT.

I hope am clear.



jha said:


> You should think again ... *Remember Shakti for Dhruv..* I am really skeptical about their so called ToT..


 
Is it not performing well ? Or are you in French bashing mood ?


----------



## bhagat

look at the poll ...it looks like rafale is the clear winner in pdf...


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## sancho

jha said:


> Welcome sir..RAFALE fans were having tough time convincing every one of RAFALE's superiority,,
> 
> Too bad my two favorites F-16 and Mig-35 did not make the cut..


 
As I always said, I want the best fighter that suits our forces, and today that it's Rafale, 10 years ago that would be the EF! 
Even if the news is true, I will celebrate only about IAF / MoD not falling on political pressure and focusing on what is important for India, ToT, offsets, less restrictions!

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## anathema

I am feeling sad about Gripen....good plane ...decent capabilities..at a good price !!!! Nevermind...Rafale has been my second favorite.....


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## Contract Killer

JayAtl said:


> find me one other indian non newbie poster here who agrees with your moronic claim below that the US will react as such. go ahead appeal to any Indian to join that idiotic statement below.


 
Thats what happens when you have half brain................... do you think what ever people write here or express is nothing but serious and facts. Nut head... get a life. some time try to understand jokes. and then react. Not just start shooting.

And don't try to show me your post count........... that does not makes you more intelligent then me. Post count with your reaction shows, that either you dont have much work to do or you are just a Laptop baby.


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## Kinetic

*Eurofighter rules!!*

 

For last four years I continuously supported this fighter. This is the newest and the best among six. This fighter will give us an edge of enemy. 








I will not be unhappy if Rafale is selected.

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## KS

kingdurgaking said:


> whole world knows EFT kicks butt in air 2 air warfare...


 
Agreed -- but we desperately need A2G more than A2A with our Mig 27s scheduled to be retired soon and even the Jaguars scheduled to be retired.

For A2A we already have the Mig 29 upgraded and even the MKI and Rafale can do the job admirably given the opponents in the region.

And that is till only 2018 and then the Indo-Russian King will come.


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## tallboy123

BENNY i am searching for that rafale video u posted on some early pages on this thread,but am not getting can u post again........?????????


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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


> BENNY i am searching for that rafale video u posted on some early pages on this thread,but am not getting can u post again........?????????

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## tallboy123

*can anyone imagine and tell how would be the reply and coments of our advesaries in PDF if india shortlisted F-16 and gripen by chance *:::::


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## SpArK




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## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Scorpene,Rafale,Mirage upg - France happy
> 
> EU ?


 
EU? Eurofighter Typhoon. 

BTW not just making them happy, all of these are bests in the world. They competed against other weapons of similar classes.


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## Kinetic

tallboy123 said:


> Now US can go and get signed all those CISMOA,EUMA,CEMA,PUMA,REEMA,KAMA from libya and sell them!!!!!!


 
  

I feel sorry for F-18. But F-16 was out of question never on the run.


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## AsianLion

Terrible news for "Russia", the strategic partner "America" and "Sweden" !!!

EuroFighter is a good choice by India but French Rafale with possibly no customers, damn bad, India didnot made a good choice and sheer waste of money. Gripen NG would have been a far better choice,

Pakistan should be atleast part happy with Indias choice of "Rafale" and part worried about "EF", to be frank honest about it.


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## Ammyy

I have sympathy with Americans 








Euro Fighter with Indian tricolor in IAF 





this is the best combination


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## jha

> Is it not performing well ? Or are you in French bashing mood ?



It is performing all right..Its just our dependency on them (even though its a JV ) which i dont like..And no I am not in French bashing mood.
I am just not comfortable with their arrogant attitude..


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## Kinetic

*sab Rafale lovers ka mukh kala ho jaye jaaldi!!!! * 


EFT rules by all means. Its the future but Rafale have some serious leverages I know. It will benefit India for other projects.

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## IndianArmy

AsianUnion said:


> Terrible news for "Russia", the strategic partner "America" and "Sweden" !!!
> 
> EuroFighter is a good choice by India but French Rafale with possibly no customers, damn bad, India didnot made a good choice and sheer waste of money. Gripen NG would have been a far better choice,
> 
> Pakistan should be atleast part happy with Indias choice of "Rafale" and part worried about "EF", to be frank honest about it.


 
The above mentioned strategic partners have been given multi billion dollars defense deals apart from this tender, so there is absolutely no diplomatic failure on our part, its a Win Win situation for all....


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## Dash

tallboy123 said:


> *can anyone imagine and tell how would be the reply and coments of our advesaries in PDF if india shortlisted F-16 and gripen by chance *:::::



Lets keep it out of topic for some time...


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## Dash

Kinetic said:


> *sab Rafale lovers ka mukh kala ho jaye jaaldi!!!! *



kesey??.....Kaala jadu chalaya hei kya??....Remember Lowest L1 Bidder of teh shortlisted, Goes to Rafale


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## jha

Kinetic said:


> *sab Rafale lovers ka mukh kala ho jaye jaaldi!!!! *


 
AMEN......


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## KS

JayAtl said:


> was there not an article posted here-- speaking to the French aircraft that was not able to sell to anyone other than the French- had a huge investment from the French govt- infact it was teetering on its govt not being able to keep it propped up anymore ?


 
You want us to sell an aircraft which only the puppies of US buy and for which we have to sign endless **MAs like EUMA,CISMOA,CEMA,REEMA,KAREEMA etc and for which we have to hitch our wagons permanently with the US wagon to ensure reliable supply of spares and not face sanctions ?

NO.



axisofevil said:


> How come some idiots are rooting for Rafale simply because it looks good? Are you guys idiots? Choose a plane based on a multitude of factors, technology just being one. I hope we look at aircraft where we get to improve our existing aircraft industry.


 
Take a look at the MRCA thread and learn the capablilites of Rafale before loudmouthing here.

A bird (Rafale) in hand is worth two (EFT) in the bush -

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## AsianLion

IndianArmy said:


> The above mentioned strategic partners have been given multi billion dollars defense deals apart from this tender, so there is absolutely no diplomatic failure on our part, its a Win Win situation for all....



yeah i can understand your point, EF seems a deadly jet but Rafale with everyone evaluating it and rejecting it. Its overpriced and just a okay jet to be honest. Pakistan should be kinda happy for it in a way. 

Inside talk is Pakistanis were thinking Gripen NG to be more deadly than the Rafale jets.


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## sancho

marcos98 said:


> L1 (cheapest bidder) should win.
> 
> So, which is cheapest, the Rafale or the Typhoon? I don't know.
> what say you???


 
When we take the reported figures to account, the Rafale with around $80 millions flyaway cost per unit, while the EF fits between $90 and 100+ millions. Given the fact that the Rafale operational cost were aimed at Mirage 2000 level and they purposly rejected too many features that requires more maintenance (fixed instead of retractable refuelling probe, no air brake...) and the commonality IAF has with Mirage 2000s, the Rafale should be cheaper to operate as well. Especially when we take the official reports about EFs cost increases in the RAF to account, which showed that everything went beyond the initial planing.


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## Contract Killer

AsianUnion said:


> yeah i can understand your point, EF seems a deadly jet but Rafale with everyone evaluating it and rejecting it. Its overpriced and just a okay jet to be honest. Pakistan should be kinda happy for it in a way.
> 
> Inside talk is Pakistanis were thinking Gripen NG to be more deadly than the Rafale jets.


 
Keep on inside talking.... like J10 is better then f22.


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## Kinetic

Dash said:


> kesey??.....Kaala jadu chalaya hei kya??....Remember Lowest L1 Bidder of teh shortlisted, Goes to Rafale


 
lowest bidder fidder choro. India ko EFT chahiye. 



Its the future. Huge options for upgrades. Four country partnership. Many other buyers. Technologically best. I do not think there is any lowest bidder. IAF said that those must meet the requirements and should be better than others and the money is constant $10.4 billion. Now you meet the IAF requirements and then proof better than other qualified fighters.

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## jha

OT Tuskers gone for 74...

Ishant Sharma is BACK.. A Flawless performance by him..


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## Kinetic

jha said:


> What do you think of this..?
> 
> 777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy
> 
> PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.
> 
> Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy
> 
> Additional Scorpene,Mirage upg +P-75I + FREMM - France happy
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon as MRCA- EU Happy...


 
Much more realistic, above all bests of the bests in India.

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## ramu

> Inside talk is Pakistanis were thinking Gripen NG to be more deadly than the Rafale jets.



JF-17 will be wasted if Gripen is chosen by PAF.


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## SpArK

Raffy and Flanky babes


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## SpArK

jha said:


> OT Tuskers gone for 74...
> 
> Ishant Sharma is BACK.. A Flawless performance by him..


 
No comments...


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## Dash

Kinetic said:


> lowest bidder fidder choro. India ko EFT chahiye.
> 
> 
> 
> Its the future. Huge options for upgrades. Four country partnership. Many other buyers. Technologically best. I do not think there is any lowest bidder. IAF said that those must meet the requirements and should be better than others and the money is constant $10.4 billion. Now you meet the IAF requirements and then proof better than other qualified fighters.


 
Hehe....Four countries partnership, I dont even know who will fund teh upgrades in future. and what upgrades are coming by the way? 

ok, that is secondary...According to IAF's requirements, Rafale is 10 times better than EF, like others and I have told here, if we want to integrate A2G we will have to pay for it, another millions on billions, doesnt sound good to me. IAF will still go for lowest bidder, I can guarantee that.


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## Contract Killer

*Aaj ke liye, itna kaafi hai.............. ab kal milte hai. Gn to all.*


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## KS

jha said:


> OT Tuskers gone for 74...
> 
> Ishant Sharma is BACK.. A Flawless performance by him..


 
Today double bonanza for me - this news and CSK's win

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## AsianLion

Contract Killer said:


> Keep on inside talking.... like J10 is better then f22.



No one said that, its up to you to believe it, half congratz to India.
Rafale will show you as a bad deal in future when its shot down. Its already been evaluated by Pakistan including EFs.

J20 the Stealth Eagle is near partner to F22, and not j10.


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## KS

AsianUnion said:


> No one said that, its up to you to believe it, half congratz to India.
> Rafale will show you as a bad deal in future when its shot down.* Its already been evaluated by Pakistan including EFs.*
> 
> J20 the Stealth Eagle is near partner to J22, and not j10.


 
And rejected for lack of funds. Please.........

And the J20 - that too a friggin prototype - has flown just once and no one knows even what s inside and here are people comparing it with Raptor

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## Mirza Jatt

Feeling bad bout f18......but glad Eurofighter made it.


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## DEMI GOD

AsianUnion said:


> No one said that, its up to you to believe it, half congratz to India.
> Rafale will show you as a bad deal in future when its shot down. Its already been evaluated by Pakistan including EFs.
> 
> J20 the Stealth Eagle is near partner to J22, and not j10.
> 
> oh dude gets ur point correct ,,,u even dont know names of plane an still commenting on rafale,,,,
> its f22 not j22
> 
> 
> i think u event dont know ABC of fighter jets


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## lionheart1

guys this not anti america or anti-russia , EF and rafale are the two best plane in the compitation. so two best planes are shortlisted and may be the best plane win the compitation


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## Mirza Jatt



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## relativiti

I was wondering what would be the possible outcomes of a 1-on-1 dogfight without BVR missiles for J-17 vs Rafale or J-17 vs Typhoon!!
Well I think winner will be whoever shoot J-17 down faster

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## bhagat

Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Cision Wire

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## DEMI GOD

relativiti said:


> I was wondering what would be the possible outcomes of a 1-on-1 dogfight without BVR missiles for J-17 vs Rafale or J-17 vs Typhoon!!
> Well I think winner will be whoever shoot J-17 down faster


 
why wastin rafale or ef for such a task send mig 21 JF17 will be target practice for them


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## SpArK




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## AsianLion

Yeah right, How many LCA squadrons are flying with IAF? How many super kool, Tejas in inventory? LCA is a Mirage copy in any case, sorry to bust your bubbles. 

Rafale has been evaluated and rejected by many Air Forces of the world, seeing is believing. By the time these planes get in IAF in about years of time, Pakistan would have stepped forward.



ramu said:


> JF-17 will be wasted if Gripen is chosen by PAF.


 
Gripen was high priced for Pakistan standards but it was liked by PAF pilots as against to Rafale(unless PAF specific upgrades applied to it). It will be good fighting with India, tata


----------



## praveen007

Kinetic said:


> *sab Rafale lovers ka mukh kala ho jaye jaaldi!!!! *



not a good wish to make,

*i wish jitne bhi rafael heaters hai onka mukh lal, pila, nila, aur hara, ho jaye.*


----------



## mjnaushad

DEMI GOD said:


> why wastin rafale or ef for such a task send mig 21 it will be target practice for them


 
Seriously dude... Improve your post quality.....


----------



## sancho

Remember MMRCAs are meant mainly for north eastern borders and has no big relation to JF17, so let's not go for useless vs. discussions and keep it on news, infos, or discussions about EF and Rafale only.

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## Mirza Jatt

praveen007 said:


> not a good wish to make,
> 
> *i wish jitne bhi rafael heaters hai onka mukh lal, pila, nila, aur hara, ho jaye.*



you mean ET fans should celebrate holi if ET wins ??? ok aisa hi hoga !!

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## sancho

bhagat said:


> Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Cision Wire


 
Excellent find!


----------



## subarihant

Thank God, finally some progress after a long long time. I am happy that the teens are gone and both my favs are still standing. Feel sad for Gripen.
I personally like Eurofighter Typhoon, but as of today Rafale is more multirole than EFT.


----------



## pulsar220

relativiti said:


> I was wondering what would be the possible outcomes of a 1-on-1 dogfight without BVR missiles for J-17 vs Rafale or J-17 vs Typhoon!!
> Well I think winner will be whoever shoot J-17 down faster


bro they must already be sad hearing this news.. U dont rub salt on their wounds! Lol

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## DEMI GOD

AsianUnion said:


> Yeah right, How many LCA squadrons are flying with IAF? How many super kool, Tejas in inventory? LCA is a Mirage copy in any case, sorry to bust your bubbles.
> 
> Rafale has been evaluated and rejected by many Air Forces of the world, seeing is believing.




Rejected by PAF----beacause its too costly for them ..and they wouldnt be able to procure it 
any other airforce which rejected it (links please)

for ur kin information brazilian airforce also have similar competition like mmrca an rafael is also in there final list as mentioned in 2nd page of this thread

so stop trolling

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## Mirza Jatt

*ET's Helmet Equipment Assembly (HEA)*


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## KS

sancho said:


> bhagat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Cision Wire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Excellent find*!
Click to expand...

 
So this confirms the news as of now and puts to rest any doubt. 

As of now we have to just hope none of the loosing parties indulge in cry baby antics and the MoD/IAF deliver on ACM P.V.Naik's promise of MMRCA winner by September.

ps.: Rafale 27 vs EFT 13. Lolzzzz


----------



## tallboy123

bhagat said:


> Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Cision Wire


 So this news is AUTHENTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## SpArK

.Old article....


*And yet, Dassault made no noise about it at Aero India. Not a word. No press statement. To them, as long as the right people knew, it didn't matter. That's Dassault apparently. That's why you don't hear very much about or from them, which can be pretty unsettling for a journalist*


Livefist: FIRST HAND: Flying The Dassault Rafale


----------



## subarihant

AsianUnion said:


> No one said that, its up to you to believe it, half congratz to India.
> Rafale will show you as a bad deal in future when its shot down. Its already been evaluated by Pakistan including EFs.


 
Neighbours envy, owners pride.


----------



## blackops

well put your best pilots in rafale and ef and send them up in a mock dog fight and which ever planes wins will join the iaf


----------



## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> So this confirms the news as of now and puts to rest any doubt.
> 
> As of now we have to just hope none of the loosing parties indulge in cry baby antics and the MoD/IAF deliver on ACM P.V.Naik's promise of MMRCA winner by September.
> 
> ps.: Rafale 27 vs EFT 13. Lolzzzz


 
Yes the first official news that confirms the shortlisting, here is the original source:

Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme

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## KS

blackops said:


> well put your best pilots in rafale and ef and send them up in a mock dog fight and which ever planes wins will join the iaf


 
It doesn't make sense as in A2A EFT is marginally better than Rafale.

Its only in A2G and consequently in Omni-role capabilities that Rafale wins.


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## blackops

Karthic Sri said:


> It doesn't make sense as in A2A EFT is marginally better than Rafale.
> 
> Its only in A2G and consequently in Omni-role capabilities that Rafale wins.


 
well thats true in a2a ef is slightly better but still if there are any doubts this tactic can very well be done


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## foxbat

AsianUnion said:


> Rafale has been evaluated and rejected by many Air Forces of the world, seeing is believing. By the time these planes get in IAF in about years of time, Pakistan would have stepped forward.





AsianUnion said:


> No one said that, its up to you to believe it, half congratz to India.
> Rafale will show you as a bad deal in future when its shot down. Its already been evaluated by Pakistan including EFs.


----------



## Kinetic

Dash said:


> Hehe....Four countries partnership, I dont even know who will fund teh upgrades in future. and what upgrades are coming by the way?


Many things like more powerful TVC engines, high power microwave, electronic attack and cyber warfare. lol 

BTW four country partnership is important because forget Italy and Spain Germany and UK have many technologies better than France. EFT inducted in much larger number than Rafale. Many country bought it. 




> ok, that is secondary...According to IAF's requirements, *Rafale is 10 times better than EF*, like others and I have told here, if we want to integrate A2G we will have to pay for it, another millions on billions, doesnt sound good to me. IAF will still go for lowest bidder, I can guarantee that.


 
hehe my source tells me EFT is 20 times better than Rafale. Better radar, better engines, supercruise, better avionics and sensors.


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## JayAtl

Karthic Sri said:


> You want us to sell an aircraft which only the puppies of US buy and for which we have to sign endless **MAs like EUMA,CISMOA,CEMA,REEMA,KAREEMA etc and for which we have to hitch our wagons permanently with the US wagon to ensure reliable supply of spares and not face sanctions ?
> 
> NO.
> 
> 
> 
> -


 
are you not buying other US puppies only - those puppies are quite a few in number btw ? Regardless of not choosing F 18 - fair enough - but US technology is also superior in many cases hence other military aircrafts have been chosen by MOD 

India is also investing on 4.5 gen aircraft when 5th gen is really where it is at in the next decade(s)... there is a legitimate argument considering the price of these aircrafts that F 18 was the cheapest and had a pretty big bang for the buck - and to concentrate on spending the bigger buck on 5th gen acquisitions. I'm sure the MOD is capable of negotiating a TOT suits them. I'm baffled w/ you comment because you have several military aircrafts that have been negotiated for India... this is not one off ( transport aircrafts, helicopters, Naval recon aircrafts)


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## Abhishek_

kinetic, give it up already. It will be Rafale fo sho


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## SpArK

blackops said:


> well put your best pilots in rafale and ef and send them up in a mock dog fight and which ever planes wins will join the iaf


 
Why not Rafale with RBE-2 Aesa + Mica+ Meteor...deadly...


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## praveen007

Indian Jatt said:


> you mean ET fans should celebrate holi if ET wins ??? ok aisa hi hoga !!


 
hay dont twist my words
holy is long gone and for the mmrca its only going to RAFALE this time.


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## anathema

A very Interesting Point of view from BR (Rakesh - Webmaster). All credits to him

*Why news about Rafale being kicked out made rounds ? Why Rafale executive was sacked ? *



> If the news about the down select is true, then the IAF prefered the Rafale and the Eurofighter once the technical trials were completed (probably earlier, but cannot be confirmed with any certainty). This must have riled the other vendors and false news was leaked about the Rafale being booted out of the competition. Now when taken at face value, this has NO bearing on the competition itself but might give the vendors an idea of who is in and who is not based on how the MoD responds. If this was just internet chatter or DDM reporting, the MoD would not intervened and stated that the Rafale is still very much in the running. But they did indeed respond and it takes a lot to happen for the MoD/GoI to clarify anything, especially in a competition of this importance.
> 
> Now on to Posina V Rao - India's Dassault Exec, think if it was the Gripen that bribed Wing Commander Thakur for a prime spot @ Aero India or if it was the MiG-35 that did the dirty deed? Do you think the IAF would have reacted in the manner it did if these aircraft were never part of the downselect? They declared P V Rao persona non grata for crying out loud - the man cannot even enter the hallowed halls of the IAF HQ in New Delhi! The IAF played it very safe because they knew what would happen otherwise - the official booting out of Dassault from the competition. And they could miss a golden opportunity to get an aircraft that got top marks from their evaluators.
> 
> When I say piece the puzzle together (I should have better worded it) what I meant was see the power play and struggle that is going on among the vendors and the extreme lengths that the IAF is going to ensure they get what they want. Sorry again.

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## kingkobra

with continuously decreasing number of aircrafts in IAF and hopefully retiring MIG-21s,how much would be actual number of MMRCA we would buy?
and isn't it stupid for IAF to only buy 18 jets off the shelf and building other in india??...i mean it would take us years to build them if we consider our current rate of production and available assembly plants..


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## Abingdonboy

Guys if you go to YouTube and type "future dogfight" you can see a very interesting video. What is interesting is they illustrate a hypothetic dogfight of the F-22 VS the SU-30MKI, note the MK"I" specifically, I find this odd as India is the ONLY country that operates the MKI so do (this is made by History channel and doesn't represent views of US govt) they expect to go to war with India by 2016? What is also interesting is that in the formation of MKIs is the Rafele and this program was made 4 years age! Pure luck or do these guys know more than we do??


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## SpArK

Abingdonboy said:


> Guys if you go to YouTube and type "future dogfight" you can see a very interesting video. What is interesting is they illustrate a hypothetic dogfight of the F-22 VS the SU-30MKI, note the MK"I" specifically, I find this odd as India is the ONLY country that operates the MKI so do (this is made by History channel and doesn't represent views of US govt) they expect to go to war with India by 2016? What is also interesting is that in the formation of MKIs is the Rafele and this program was made 4 years age! Pure luck or do these guys know more than we do??


 
u lifted that straight out of the forum... huh .. give credit ...


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## Kinetic

Abhishek_ said:


> kinetic, give it up already. It will be Rafale fo sho


 
Never! Dream on Bharti!  


For four years waiting for this baby.

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## Mirza Jatt

JayAtl said:


> are you not buying other US puppies only - those puppies are quite a few in number btw ? Regardless of not choosing F 18 - fair enough - but US technology is also superior in many cases hence other military aircrafts have been chosen by MOD
> 
> India is also investing on 4.5 gen aircraft when 5th gen is really where it is at in the next decade(s)... there is a legitimate argument considering the price of these aircrafts that *F 18 was the cheapest *and had a pretty big bang for the buck - and to concentrate on spending the bigger buck on 5th gen acquisitions. I'm sure the MOD is capable of negotiating a TOT suits them. I'm baffled w/ you comment because you have several military aircrafts that have been negotiated for India... this is not one off ( transport aircrafts, helicopters, Naval recon aircrafts)


 

I myself am a big fan of F18 and I think it was well suited for the roles in MRCA....but I think MoD is looking for additional benefits with any bird tha they choose for which the contest has narrowed down to EF and rafale...these two birds are not only good, but also gives full ToT and other benefits like partnership.etc.

BTW am not sure of the price thing...


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## relativiti

*FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Out!*

It's official! France's Dassault Aviation Rafale and the European consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon move to the next level on the Indian Air Force M-MRCA fighter selection process. Both companies have confirmed that their programme teams have been asked to be at the MoD/Air HQ tomorrow for a meeting where the process will be taken forward. While the two companies have been, in effect, asked to extend the validity of their commercial bids, the other four contenders -- Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed-Martin's F-16, UAC's MiG-35 and Saab's Gripen -- haven't received a message or a letter. This is, in effect, the downselect that you've been hearing about so much. More shortly. It must be said that it was TimesNOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry who first reported that the Rafale and Typhoon led the competition, followed by several posts here on Livefist which suggested that the two big European twins were likely to make the semi-final cut. Today's story broke on Stratpost.

What has happened today is basically scenario 2 in my post from earlier today. The MoD's decision to issue requests for bid validity extension to only two of the six companies -- and by default allow the commercial bids of the other four to expire tomorrow -- could be problematic, but this isn't something the IAF and MoD haven't accounted for. This could be the most interesting phase of the competition, since the four contenders knocked out of the fray will be wondering why in hell the government waited till the end to shaft them.

Livefist has reported extensively on the apprehensions that could guide the Indian government's final decision against the Americans and Russians. Let's just remind ourselves, however, that is a down-select. The process of selection is not nearly over. This is, however, the first substantive decision that has been taken in the competition, and the only one so far that narrows the board. Stay tuned for what promises to be a huge amount of action from here on out.

Livefist: FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Out!


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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> u lifted that straight out of the forum... huh .. give credit ...


 
What forum? I watched this on History channel years ago and wondered then but this news has remind me?


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## JayAtl

Abingdonboy said:


> Guys if you go to YouTube and type "future dogfight" you can see a very interesting video. What is interesting is they illustrate a hypothetic dogfight of the F-22 VS the SU-30MKI, note the MK"I" specifically, I find this odd as India is the ONLY country that operates the MKI so do (this is made by History channel and doesn't represent views of US govt) they expect to go to war with India by 2016? What is also interesting is that in the formation of MKIs is the Rafele and this program was made 4 years age! Pure luck or do these guys know more than we do??


 
History channel is a CIA front  j/k. thanks for the find , should be interesting to watch- headed there now


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## SpArK




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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


>


 
I don't think whatever bird IAF choses will be in black, probably standard IAF grey. Maybe for Strategic Forces Command?


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## Dash

Kinetic said:


> Many things like more powerful TVC engines, high power microwave, electronic attack and cyber warfare. lol
> 
> BTW four country partnership is important because forget Italy and Spain Germany and UK have many technologies better than France. EFT inducted in much larger number than Rafale. Many country bought it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hehe my source tells me EFT is 20 times better than Rafale. Better radar, better engines, supercruise, better avionics and sensors.



I will not get there now, Lets celebrate the Rafale showdown!!!....


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## Dash

Looks like some journos woke up midnight.....we are getting more and more news.


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## anathema

Dash said:


> Looks like some journos woke up midnight.....we are getting more and more news.


 
What news ? havent got any further updates ? any word from Amerikan's ?


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## bhagat

anathema said:


> What news ? havent got any further updates ? any word from Amerikan's ?


 
no word from amerikan's but saab conformed it...
Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme

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## JayAtl

Indian Jatt said:


> I myself am a big fan of F18 and I think it was well suited for the roles in MRCA....but I think MoD is looking for additional benefits with any bird tha they choose for which the contest has narrowed down to EF and rafale...these two birds are not only good, but also gives full ToT and other benefits like partnership.etc.
> 
> BTW am not sure of the price thing...


 
I don't know if the TOT portion of negotiations has begun. I remember articles saying they were willing on TOT. but yeah, my point to Kartic was - when have those agreements hindered Indian MOD from negotiating. I guess when the MOD comes out with why others lost out it would state if TOT was an issue and if it was - hell yeah go with whomever is giving you the best buck. 

On pricing was the EF not the most expensive of all aircrafts?


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## Mirza Jatt

JayAtl said:


> IOn pricing was the EF not the most expensive of all aircrafts?



It is still the most expensive,even afterthe price cuts. But i was not so sure of your cliam of the F18 being less expensive compared to other birds. thats why I asked it.


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## koushik

One very important feature of the Rafale is the SPECTRA virtual software based Stealth Electronic Warfare and Defensive Aids Suite.this entire suite is integrated internally and it houses an Infraded Missile Warning System,a Radar Warning Receiver along with Chaff and Flare Dispensers.the Spectra houses a self protection jammer which has the capability of stealthy modes of Jamming along with Active Cancellation Technology.this gives the Heavy Protection in a net-centric warfare.this Spectra is made by THALES and EADS FRANCE.the Topsight-E Helmet Mounted Sight along with the MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM in WVR Combat and MBDA Meteor in BVR combat makes it a lethal platform.


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## JayAtl

I'd love to see a new thread where French Vs EU aircraft specs are posted in one place vs having to hunt hundreds of post on it. A benchmark of sorts , if possible by the knowledgeable posters here.

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## JayAtl

Indian Jatt said:


> It is still the most expensive,even afterthe price cuts. But i was not so sure of your cliam of the F18 being less expensive compared to other birds. thats why I asked it.


 
there was a thread here ages ago where raw pricing on each was put up _ I thought it had F 18 as least expensive. can anyone else confirm?


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## JayAtl

koushik said:


> One very important feature of the Rafale is the SPECTRA virtual software based Stealth Electronic Warfare and Defensive Aids Suite.this entire suite is integrated internally and it houses an Infraded Missile Warning System,a Radar Warning Receiver along with Chaff and Flare Dispensers.the Spectra houses a self protection jammer which has the capability of stealthy modes of Jamming along with Active Cancellation Technology.this gives the Heavy Protection in a net-centric warfare.this Spectra is made by THALES and EADS FRANCE.the Topsight-E Helmet Mounted Sight along with the MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM in WVR Combat and MBDA Meteor in BVR combat makes it a lethal platform.


 
side note: did you say you were only 16? parents must be proud of you- I know many here are w/ your knowledge. someday tell us how you got to be such a military enthusiasts


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## Dash

anathema said:


> What news ? havent got any further updates ? any word from Amerikan's ?



No US response so far, however the revised bid is pretty much indicating that these are the final fighters and SAAB news release.You got any source?.
I am sure US is going fight back now, 

*in the begining of the month they said that HAL may not be able to handle F-18 production line. *
I dont know if this could be an indication of downplaying their delisting in MRCA, giving an excuse out?


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## metro

JayAtl said:


> side note: did you say you were only 16? parents must be proud of you- I know many here are w/ your knowledge. someday tell us how you got to be such a military enthusiasts


 
Todays kids are very smart. Sometimes I find it unbelievable.

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## anathema

Dash said:


> No US response so far, however the revised bid is pretty much indicating that these are the final fighters and SAAB news release.You got any source?.
> I am sure US is going fight back now,
> 
> *in the begining of the month they said that HAL may not be able to handle F-18 production line. *
> *I dont know if this could be an indication of downplaying their delisting in MRCA, giving an excuse out?*



Naa i dont think that would be true...Amerikan's are just too big to react in this way...in other words they dont need to prove to anymove...F18 and 16 are both legendary fighters in their own rights...

Just saw SAAB confirmation...well that makes it official....

I agree with you on one point...Amerikans will play it dirty...allegations and accusations will soon be out....


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## koushik

JayAtl said:


> side note: did you say you were only 16? parents must be proud of you- I know many here are w/ your knowledge. someday tell us how you got to be such a military enthusiasts


 
Thank you for your respect towards me.I may be 16 but my heart lies in defence and military stuff.i love every minute in PDF.i have become so interested in defence by following u guys for the past three years.i have just started my Class-XI and i want to join IAF as a fighter pilot.i love india,armed forces and i love all indian members here that's what inspires me to share my lil knowledge which have with all my bhaiyas.

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## anathema

koushik said:


> One very important feature of the Rafale is the SPECTRA virtual software based Stealth Electronic Warfare and Defensive Aids Suite.this entire suite is integrated internally and it houses an Infraded Missile Warning System,a Radar Warning Receiver along with Chaff and Flare Dispensers.the Spectra houses a self protection jammer which has the capability of stealthy modes of Jamming along with Active Cancellation Technology.this gives the Heavy Protection in a net-centric warfare.this Spectra is made by THALES and EADS FRANCE.the Topsight-E Helmet Mounted Sight along with the MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM in WVR Combat and MBDA Meteor in BVR combat makes it a lethal platform.



You should be playing around at 16...instead of all the virtual stealth talk..  

Jokes apart...EF also has plans to put such system in place...i think it has some of those capabilities but not yet fully matured as Spectra....and ohhh some people say that Spectra has Active cancellation system OR software based stealth...no to take it away from Spectra, i think its full BS. Spectra is a RWR/Electronic warefare unit alebit a good one.


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## SpArK

koushik said:


> Thank you for your respect towards me.I may be 16 but my heart lies in defence and military stuff.i love every minute in PDF.i have become so interested in defence by following u guys for the past three years.i have just started my Class-XI and i want to join IAF as a fighter pilot.i love india,armed forces and i love all indian members here that's what inspires me to share my lil knowledge which have with all my bhaiyas.


 
Wish you all the best and take good care of Raffy's


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## prototype

Contract Killer said:


> Indian Govt. has balls......................
> 
> After this...........US reaction
> 
> 1. India is not Fit for UN permanent seat.
> 2. Pakistan is our(US) true friend.
> 3. Will have to rethink our(US) Strategic partnership with India.
> 4. Obama plans visit to Pakistan.
> 5. Bla Bla Bla...................



I dont think american's will be concerned due to this,if they value business they value India.



> Apart from being in contention for the $10.4 billion contract for 126 combat planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF), Boeing is a hot contender in the $650-million tender for 22 attack helicopters and a $700-million bid for 15 heavy-lift cargo helicopters.
> 
> The firm will also offer a 'diet' version of its P8 Poseidon plane for the Indian Navy's requirement of a medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft when the tenders are issued. Though there is no mention of the number of MRMR aircraft required in the present request for information, it is likely to be around 10 planes worth $2 billion.
> 
> Boeing has already bagged a $170-million order, through the US' foreign military sales route, to supply 24 units of Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles for the IAF's maritime-strike Jaguar fighter jets.
> 
> Our hands are pretty full. There's lots going on," Christopher M. Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, told IANS in an interview here.
> 
> Boeing has pitted its F/A-18 in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal against US firm Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon and Swedish SAAB's Gripen.
> 
> The likely winner of the MMRCA contract is expected to be known in a month or two, with the deal being signed before March 2012.
> 
> "We are really excited about the opportunity that still exists in MMRCA. In the months that have gone by in the competition, we have a viable offering, because the F/A-18 Super Hornet provides the right capability at the right cost with fairly low risk. In addition it gives the right life cycle cost," said Chadwick, who was here to review his company's campaigns for these deals.
> 
> He said Boeing had worked "closely" with its Indian industry partners, particularly with the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, "not just to provide work but also to enhance their abilities" by holding classes and programmes in management and manufacturing.


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## jha

anathema said:


> Naa i dont think that would be true...Amerikan's are just too big to react in this way...in other words they dont need to prove to anymove...F18 and 16 are both legendary fighters in their own rights...
> 
> Just saw SAAB confirmation...well that makes it official....
> 
> I agree with you on one point...*Amerikans will play it dirty...allegations and accusations will soon be out*....



Anthony is playing it safe..Dont think Amerikan pressure will have its effect..

However both Fighters are close..It will be a very tough call..


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## Dash

anathema said:


> Naa i dont think that would be true...*Amerikan's are just too big to react in this way*...in other words they dont need to prove to anymove...F18 and 16 are both legendary fighters in their own rights...
> 
> Just saw SAAB confirmation...well that makes it official....
> 
> I agree with you on one point...Amerikans will play it dirty...allegations and accusations will soon be out....



Buddy, I dont think so, US doesnt consider itself verybig now and its economic time and these are hard, even US will feel the pinch of loosing a $10+ billion dollar contract and further cakes that was on the way due to MRCA. So you never know, sounds like they already knew they were out, they were making a passage.

Wait for some cables


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## anathema

jha said:


> Anthony is playing it safe..Dont think Amerikan pressure will have its effect..
> 
> However both Fighters are close..It will be a very tough call..


 
Well good and bad news is -- *Saint Antony* is in charge 

Good news - He wont bow to Amerikan pressure --as we saw during the gates episode...

Bad news -- Any slight hint of corruption/allegation..the entire deal will come to a halt .....This is the more scary part.


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## Dash

SpArK said:


> Wish you all the best and take good care of Raffy's



Dont worry, He will be the pilot and you will be the grounds man.. Raffy baby


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## koushik

JayAtl said:


> side note: did you say you were only 16? parents must be proud of you- I know many here are w/ your knowledge. someday tell us how you got to be such a military enthusiasts


 
Thank you for your respect towards me.I may be 16 but my heart lies in defence and military stuff.i love every minute in PDF.i have become so interested in defence by following u guys for the past three years.i have just started my Class-XI and i want to join IAF as a fighter pilot.i love india,armed forces and i love all indian members here that's what inspires me to share my lil knowledge which have with all my bhaiyas.


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Anthony is playing it safe..Dont think Amerikan pressure will have its effect..
> 
> However both Fighters are close..It will be a very tough call..


 
Lets just speculate the reasons for which any of these can be rejected.. would be fun..


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## Dash

anathema said:


> Bad news -- Any slight hint of corruption/allegation..the entire deal will come to a halt .....This is the more scary part.



Arre bhai......darana baandh karo.....


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## anathema

Dash said:


> Arre bhai......darana baandh karo.....


 
I used to be Koushik's age....when this MRCA stuff started..... abhi tu mere ko boool...daru nahi kya ?


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## SpArK

I hope Brazil will be closely watching the news too..


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## KS

JayAtl said:


> are you not buying other US puppies only - those puppies are quite a few in number btw ? Regardless of not choosing F 18 - fair enough - but US technology is also superior in many cases hence other military aircrafts have been chosen by MOD



For sure UK is a US puppy only but cant say the same for France or Germany or even for Italy.

What US technology offered is superior to those on offer on EFT/Rafale ? Nothing except maybe the APG 79. Even that is offset as the RBE-2 is operational in the Rafale and the Captor is in EFT.



JayAtl said:


> India is also investing on 4.5 gen aircraft when 5th gen is really where it is at in the next decade(s)... there is a legitimate argument considering the price of these aircrafts that F 18 was the cheapest and had a pretty big bang for the buck - and to concentrate on spending the bigger buck on 5th gen acquisitions. I'm sure the MOD is capable of negotiating a TOT suits them. I'm baffled w/ you comment because you have several military aircrafts that have been negotiated for India... this is not one off ( transport aircrafts, helicopters, Naval recon aircrafts)



India is already in JV on a fifth gen with Russia and cost is not really a matter - atleast as far as critical techs are concerned.

Secondly technology and the associated sweeteners on offer in the case of EFT/Rafale is too good when compared with what the US is offering

Thirdly we are not ready to sign those endless ***MAs in order to access the US equipment.

Fourthly US has this strange habit of putting on sanction when least expected. You may argue that India/US are real homies now. But so were US-Pakistan for the most part of time. Heck the US was even colluding with the Chinese for some time and thought of propping them as a counterweight for USSR. What is the Guarentee that the same will not happen with India tomorrow ?
The Sea King fleet of the Indian Navy is amost always grounded due to lack of spares.

Fifthly the US is not reliable enough ,*AT PRESENT* , to trust them with the supply of Fighters - Transport a/c, patrol crafts,Helis etc which are important but not as critical as fighters for fighting a war are already given to the US.

Call it paranoia --- better safe than be sorry.


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## koushik

anathema said:


> You should be playing around at 16...instead of all the virtual stealth talk..
> 
> Jokes apart...EF also has plans to put such system in place...i think it has some of those capabilities but not yet fully matured as Spectra....and ohhh some people say that Spectra has Active cancellation system OR software based stealth...no to take it away from Spectra, i think its full BS. Spectra is a RWR/Electronic warefare unit alebit a good one.


 
thanks so much for your advice but to let you know if am an under-19 player and i play cricket for Bengal in the Ranji Trophy.anyways thanx for correcting me regarding spectra


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Lets just speculate the reasons for which any of these can be rejected.. would be fun..


 
I'm Still shocked to see my two favorites not included in the list, But let me try..

RAFALE: Engine + Radar + French Arrogance + Costly Upgrades + Less capable METEOR

EF : Dependency on 4 countries + Procurement Cost + A2G capacity not fully developed ...

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## SpArK

Will they lift the ELTA.. AESA sanction now???


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## anathema

koushik said:


> thanks so much for your advice but to let you know if am an under-19 player and i play cricket for Bengal in the Ranji Trophy.anyways thanx for correcting me regarding spectra


 
Congratulations ....that is brilliant....

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------




SpArK said:


> Will they lift the ELTA.. AESA sanction now???


 
What has ELTA AESA sanction gotto do with MRCA ?

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------




jha said:


> I'm Still shocked to see my two favorites not included in the list, But let me try..
> 
> RAFALE: Engine + Radar + French Arrogance + Costly Upgrades + *Less capable METEOR*
> 
> EF : Dependency on 4 countries + Procurement Cost + A2G capacity not fully developed ...



Can you elaborate on the Meteor part ? I seemed to have missed that news altogether.


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## palash_kol

SpArK said:


> Wish you all the best and take good care of Raffy's


 
*Thats true.....maybe after 4 - 5 year India will start getting Rafale and koushik got his carrer in IAF. Bye the time he will be around 21 and also be eligible to marry Rafale.*


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## JayAtl

Karthic Sri said:


> For sure UK is a US puppy only but cant say the same for France or Germany or even for Italy.
> 
> What US technology offered is superior to those on offer on EFT/Rafale ? Nothing except maybe the APG 79. Even that is offset as the RBE-2 is operational in the Rafale and the Captor is in EFT.
> 
> 
> 
> India is already in JV on a fifth gen with Russia and cost is not really a matter - atleast as far as critical techs are concerned.
> 
> Secondly technology and the associated sweeteners on offer in the case of EFT/Rafale is too good when compared with what the US is offering
> 
> Thirdly we are not ready to sign those endless ***MAs in order to access the US equipment.
> 
> Fourthly US has this strange habit of putting on sanction when least expected. You may argue that India/US are real homies now. But so were US-Pakistan for the most part of time. Heck the US was even colluding with the Chinese for some time and thought of propping them as a counterweight for USSR. What is the Guarentee that the same will not happen with India tomorrow ?
> The Sea King fleet of the Indian Navy is amost always grounded due to lack of spares.
> 
> Fifthly the US is not reliable enough ,*AT PRESENT* , to trust them with the supply of Fighters - Transport a/c, patrol crafts,Helis etc which are important but not as critical as fighters for fighting a war are already given to the US.
> 
> Call it paranoia --- better safe than be sorry.


 
If US sanctions then NATO sanctions. anyways my point was - you had this concern about TOT and I was well then, negotiate it! - just because a country has restrictions does not mean Indian purchasing power would not circumvent it. Lord sakes the US is the one who gave India the go ahead on reactor agreements without a NPT- it an indicator to me they have sufficient trust in India .


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## KS

JayAtl said:


> I don't know if the TOT portion of negotiations has begun. I remember articles saying they were willing on TOT. but yeah, my point to Kartic was - when have those agreements hindered Indian MOD from negotiating. I guess when the MOD comes out with why others lost out it would state if TOT was an issue and if it was - hell yeah go with whomever is giving you the best buck.
> 
> On pricing was the EF not the most expensive of all aircrafts?


 
The current shortlist is purely based on technical parameters based on the competitive flight testing of all the contenders in the varied climes as prescribed by IAF ASQR.

The F-18 is reported to have failed in the high altitude trials in Leh.




JayAtl said:


> If US sanctions then NATO sanctions.


 
Wrong --- 1999 Nuclear explosions.

The only two nations that supported us were France and Russia.

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## SpArK

anathema said:


> Congratulations ....that is brilliant....
> 
> 
> 
> What has ELTA AESA sanction gotto do with MRCA ?
> 
> .




I dunno... i had a feeling they had a connection in the whole thing.


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## SpArK

Rafale's gonna win... considering the Saudi factor.


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## jha

anathema said:


> You should be playing around at 16...instead of all the virtual stealth talk..
> 
> Jokes apart...EF also has plans to put such system in place...i think it has some of those capabilities but not yet fully matured as Spectra....and ohhh some people say that Spectra has Active cancellation system OR software based stealth...no to take it away from Spectra, i think its full BS. Spectra is a RWR/Electronic warefare unit alebit a good one.


 
They call it PIRATE which basically incorporates both FLIR and IRST capabilities . Once a target is tracked and identified, PIRATE can also cue a missile with High Off-boresight capability..
In addition to PIRATE , EF also has RWR + LWR +MAW.. All the data from these sensors are combined through AIS...

I guess SPECTRA is a combination of all the above sensors and is basically a package..Regarding the ACTIVE stealth- I find it too much to believe..

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## JayAtl

Karthic Sri said:


> The current shortlist is purely based on technical parameters based on the competitive flight testing of all the contenders in the varied climes as prescribed by IAF ASQR.
> 
> The F-18 is reported to have failed in the high altitude trials in Leh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong --- 1999 Nuclear explosions.
> 
> The only two nations that supported us were France and Russia.


 
okay , will know tomorrow. now thats settled why don't you start a thread RAF VS EF benchmarks... pretty please for those who don't wanna hunt a million posts from the past.


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## koushik

The Eurofighter Typhøon is equipped PIRATE (Passive Infrared Search and Track Equipment) IRST Suite.the PIRATE operates in the band of 3-5 and 8-11 Macrometer.When it is along with the radar in the Air-to-Air mode it acts as an IRST and also helps provide target designation for Air-to-surface weapons.The PIRATE can also be used as a navigation device when its data is linked with the pilot's Helmet Mounted Sights.this gives the pilot great situational awareness.

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## jha

SpArK said:


> Rafale's gonna win... considering the Saudi factor.


 
UAE was considering RAFALE ( still is )...


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## JayAtl

jha said:


> They call it PIRATE which basically incorporates both FLIR and IRST capabilities . Once a target is tracked and identified, PIRATE can also cue a missile with High Off-boresight capability..
> In addition to PIRATE , EF also has RWR + LWR +MAW.. All the data from these sensors are combined through AIS...
> 
> I guess SPECTRA is a combination of all the above sensors and is basically a package..Regarding the ACTIVE stealth- I find it too much to believe..


 
grr you guys talk in abbreviations-- what is RWR + LWR +MAW in layman terms


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## SpArK

jha said:


> UAE was considering RAFALE ( still is )...


 
They in all probabilities will go for hornet... US would step up the campaign..


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## jha

koushik said:


> The Eurofighter Typhøon is equipped PIRATE (Passive Infrared Search and Track Equipment) IRST Suite.the PIRATE operates in the band of 3-5 and 8-11 Macrometer.When it is along with the radar in the Air-to-Air mode it acts as an IRST and also helps provide target designation for Air-to-surface weapons.The PIRATE can also be used as a navigation device when its data is linked with the pilot's Helmet Mounted Sights.this gives the pilot great situational awareness.



Your knowledge is impressive..At least I am impressed..I did not remember the exact wavelength..Just a little correction- It is MICROMETER not macrometer..

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## KS

JayAtl said:


> okay , will know tomorrow. now thats settled why don't you start a thread *RAF VS EF benchmarks*... pretty please for those who don't wanna hunt a million posts from the past.


 
lol the moment Sancho and Prateek come to an agreement on the capabilities in the MRCA thread I will start a thread 

The problem is EFT is a highly evolving platform and no one knows for sure if a particular capability that is promised is actually there on the platform or even if it is there in what phase it is in - integration or testing or live firing etc.

Same is the case with Rafale, though to a lesser extent.

@jha,Kaushik - what is the equivalent of the PIRATE on the Rafale ?


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## Dash

anathema said:


> I used to be Koushik's age....when this MRCA stuff started..... abhi tu mere ko boool...daru nahi kya ?



Understand the pain, hold on. Daru is on the way once Rafale wins...


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## jha

JayAtl said:


> grr you guys talk in abbreviations-- what is RWR + LWR +MAW in layman terms


 
RWR- radar warning receiver
LWR- Laser warning receiver
MAW- Missile Approach Warner

Names are self explanatory i guess..All these are included in DASS (Defensive Aids Sub-System )..

DASS has basically two parts-

1.Threat Detection
2.Protection

Threat Detection Part consists of RWR+LWR+MAW

Protection part has Chaff and Flares + Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) + Towed Radar Decoy (TRD)

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## anathema

jha said:


> They call it PIRATE which basically incorporates both FLIR and IRST capabilities . Once a target is tracked and identified, PIRATE can also cue a missile with High Off-boresight capability..
> In addition to PIRATE , EF also has RWR + LWR +MAW.. All the data from these sensors are combined through AIS...
> 
> I guess SPECTRA is a combination of all the above sensors and is basically a package..Regarding the ACTIVE stealth- I find it too much to believe..


 
Correct...i was not getting the name of the system...yeah Spectra is all that ......But again Pirate is not yet into production and is till under testing phases (correct me if i am wrong)....

Active stealth is BS.....


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## Water Car Engineer

No more Super Hornet, damn it..

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## JayAtl

jha said:


> RWR- radar warning receiver
> LWR- Laser warning receiver
> MAW- Missile Approach Warner
> 
> Names are self explanatory i guess..



okay indulge me for a minute plz w/ perhaps a stupid question - why Laser warning? I got the other two.


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## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> The current shortlist is purely based on technical parameters based on the competitive flight testing of all the contenders in the varied climes as prescribed by IAF ASQR.
> 
> The F-18 is reported to have failed in the high altitude trials in Leh.


 
The shortlisting is done by MoD and the IAF report will have a part, but I think the general bids according to the RFP will be included here as well. IF these two are shortlisted, one common advantage of them the other 4 fighters is ToT! Both are pretty free to offer it not only from less important parts, but from critical techs like radar and engine. Offsets should be a big point as well, because both of them can offer JV and co-developments that will boost our industry, unlike the other vendors. Russia is already comitted here with MKI and FGFA, Sweden/Saab is too dependent on others themself and can't offer us anything useful in return, the US limits their involvement by their own laws and restrictions. 

When we look at technical parameters, the only commonality would be the good A2A performance of both, otherwise the Rafale has an edge over the EF in nearly all fields (cheaper, more commonality, can be inducted faster, true multi role capable, ready and combat proven, funded, available as an operational carrier fighter, possible option for SFC...). For Indian forces, Rafale indeed is the obvious choice, for Indian industry, the EF is a good option!

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## KS

JayAtl said:


> okay indulge me for a minute plz w/ perhaps a stupid question - why Laser warning? I got the other two.


 
I guess many IRST/FLIR sensors use Laser for designating their targets and that why.

Perhaps others could explain it well.


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## nikhilarya

finally, i could guess it when vivek lal joined reliance. so Boeing and LM was already out of MMRCA, i prefer euro fighter, its good for India that euro fighter have spares problem, a lot sub vendors will be happy to make spares for it, Rafale wont give us any opportunity to develop private manufacturing sector.


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## koushik

Thanx so much jha bhaiya. To Mr.Palash_kol, actualy u are right when I'll turn 21 i feel it would be better to marry Rafale but it would be very painful for me to marry rafale bcoz my childhood love is Su-30 MKI.Anyways both are better than my current girlfriend she doesn't to leave me.


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## jha

JayAtl said:


> okay indulge me for a minute plz w/ perhaps a stupid question - why Laser warning? I got the other two.


 
Many a times Aircrafts are fitted with Laser Range finding equipment to determine the distance accurately. Plus Laser Guided weapons use Laser Beam to hit the target..LWR is supposed to counter these threats..

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## Abingdonboy

Can any explain to me why the Rafele is considered unfit for the Vikramdatiya and IAC in STOBAR configuration when it is actually SMALLER than the Mig 29k. It has been said the Rafale was unfit many time as it was much larger and heavier than Mig 29k but looking at the specs tell a different story:
Mig 29k


> Crew: One
> Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
> Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
> Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)
> Wing area: 43 m² (462 ft²)
> Loaded weight: 18,550 kg (40,900 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (54,000 lb)
> Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans, 9,000 kgf (88.3 kN, 19,800 lbf) each
> Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 2+ (2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph) / At low altitude: Mach 1.2 (1,400 km/h, 870 mph)
> Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks
> Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,400 ft)
> Rate of climb: initial 330 m/s, average 109 m/s 0-6000 m[37] (65,000 ft/min)
> Wing loading: 442kg/m² (90.5 lb/ft²)
> Thrust/weight: 0.97


Rafele


> Crew: 1&#8211;2
> Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
> Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
> Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)
> Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
> Empty weight: 9,500kg (C), 9,770kg (B),[88] 10,196kg (M) ()
> Loaded weight: 14,016kg (30,900 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 24,500kg (C/D), 22,200kg (M)[89] (54,000 lb)
> Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
> Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
> Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
> Performance
> Maximum speed: **High altitude: Mach 2 (2,390 km/h, 1,290 knots)[88]
> Low altitude: 1,390km/h, 750 knots
> Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
> Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission .
> Service ceiling: 16,800 m (55,000 ft)
> Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
> Wing loading: 306kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²


note thrust and take off weight
I suppose it is more relevant to N-MRCA, but I suppose this is the next stop.


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## SpArK

Quite Amazing.


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## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> lol the moment Sancho and Prateek come to an agreement on the capabilities in the MRCA thread I will start a thread
> 
> what is the equivalent of the PIRATE on the Rafale ?


 
LOL, not going to happen, because he don't even read his own sources properly, that's why I have to correct him so often. 

PIRATE on EF => FSO on Rafale
DASS/ PRETOREAN on EF => SPECTRA on Rafale

But both systems are more capable on the Rafale, FSO incorporates a TV channel that gives Rafale pilots the advantage to visually identify enemy fighters at way longer range. That's the way they often are able to make the first BVR shot and that's said to be the way how they shot down the EFs during ATLC.
SPECTRA incorporates also interferometry techs, which allows Rafale pilots to geolocate enemy radars, be it from fighters, or ground threats. Combined with MICA IR and AASM, it gives the Rafale pilot the advantage to attack an enemy, without using the radar and giving away it's position.

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## Water Car Engineer




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## SpArK



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## Jon Snow

gr8 news...... Put me down for the EF camp


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## SpArK

Liquid said:


>


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## jha

sancho said:


> LOL, not going to happen, because he don't even read his own sources properly, that's why I have to correct him so often.
> 
> PIRATE on EF => FSO on Rafale
> DASS/ PRETOREAN on EF => SPECTRA on Rafale
> 
> *But both systems are more capable on the Rafale, FSO incorporates a TV channel that gives Rafale pilots the advantage to visually identify enemy fighters at way longer range. That's the way they often are able to make the first BVR shot and that's said to be the way how they shot down the EFs during ATLC.*
> SPECTRA incorporates also interferometry techs, which allows Rafale pilots to geolocate enemy radars, be it from fighters, or ground threats. Combined with MICA IR and AASM, it gives the Rafale pilot the advantage to attack an enemy, without using the radar and giving away it's position.


 
I hate to agree but RAFALE indeed seems to have achieved better fusion of sensors.. 
However in case of EF- Since development is till on, So final product will turn out better than Rafale.

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## Jon Snow

news.outlookindia.com | IAF MMRCA Deal: Eurofighter, French Dassault Chosen?

Eurofighter, Rafale make Indian MMRCA shortlist? : Defense news

seems like everybody's "informed sources" are confirming the news..... congrats India !!!


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## Jon Snow

Any news on the virtual stealth of the rafale?? the active cancellation in the spectra suite?..... is it included in the package to india??? does it even work??


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## tallboy123

* bye bye guys!!!!*


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## sancho

jha said:


> I hate to agree but RAFALE indeed seems to have achieved better fusion of sensors..
> However in case of EF- Since development is till on, So final product will turn out better than Rafale.


 
It has less to do with the development stage, but with the development aims, the EF was developed as an air superiority fighter, that's why a big radar, high speed and maneuverability, or carrying many AAMs were prime factors (same as at the MKI!). Rafale on the other hand was developed to be as good as possible in all roles, that's why they compromised on radar size, but focused on passive detection features. That's why it carries less BVR missiles, but more fuel tanks and heavy weapons...


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## koushik

Karthic Sri said:


> lol the moment Sancho and Prateek come to an agreement on the capabilities in the MRCA thread I will start a thread
> 
> The problem is EFT is a highly evolving platform and no one knows for sure if a particular capability that is promised is actually there on the platform or even if it is there in what phase it is in - integration or testing or live firing etc.
> 
> Same is the case with Rafale, though to a lesser extent.
> 
> @jha,Kaushik - what is the equivalent of the PIRATE on the Rafale ?


 
the Rafale utilises the THALES Front Sector Electro Optical System or the Optronique Secteure Frontal for both use in visual signatures as well as an internal IRST.all the core sensors of the rafale are confined in an Integrated Modular Avionics also called Multi Data Processing Unit which includes flight management,data fusion,man-machine interface


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## Marwari

Viva la France!!!!!!!!!


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## Water Car Engineer

SpArK said:


>


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## SpArK

if Rafale is selected, Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid could be a suitable upgrade option down the road. It will help standardize engines between the AMCA (200+ aircrafts) and MMRCA (~200 aircrafts). Total potential order for this Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid engine could be in the 800+ units ... if IAF goes down this path.

Courtesy srai BR..

Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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## jha

sancho said:


> It has less to do with the development stage, but with the development aims, the EF was developed as an air superiority fighter, that's why a big radar, high speed and maneuverability, or carrying many AAMs were prime factors (same as at the MKI!). Rafale on the other hand was developed to be as good as possible in all roles, that's why they compromised on radar size, but focused on passive detection features. That's why it carries less BVR missiles, but more fuel tanks and heavy weapons...




Ok..I am logging off now..


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## jha

SpArK said:


> if Rafale is selected, Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid could be a suitable upgrade option down the road. It will help standardize engines between the AMCA (200+ aircrafts) and MMRCA (~200 aircrafts). Total potential order for this Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid engine could be in the 800+ units ... if IAF goes down this path.
> 
> Courtesy srai BR..
> 
> Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist


 
Just one FATTA in this logic..End User (IAF ) is not happy with the proposition of using M88 core in KAVERI and wants it completely indigenous..


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## 1000VA

First response from the SAAB group

Saab: Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Business Wire

LINKÖPING, Sweden--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Regulatory News:

We are committed to the Indian market and continue our plans for growth and see huge business opportunities in the aerospace, defence and security sectors

*Today defence and security company Saab AB (STO:SAABB) has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.*

We are offering India a world class next generation fighter aircraft to a very competitive price and an extensive technology transfer programme. We have received this decision and will closely monitor the future process and provide additional information if requested by the Indian Ministry of Defence. We are confident that the Gripen system is the perfect match for the Indian Air Force as well as meeting the highest requirements for the international markets, says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO at Saab.

India is one of Saabs most important markets. For example, Saab recently announced an investment in a research and development centre in India.

We are committed to the Indian market and continue our plans for growth and see huge business opportunities in the aerospace, defence and security sectors, says Håkan Buskhe.

Gripen is in service with the Swedish, Czech Republic, Hungarian, South African and Royal Thai Air Forces. The UK Empire Test Pilots School (ETPS) is operating Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots worldwide.

Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers changing needs.

This information was brought to you by Cision Press Release & News Distribution | Cision Wire
Contacts

*Saab Press Centre*
*+46 (0)734 180 018*
Saabgroup.com - Defence and Security


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## KS

jha said:


> Just one FATTA in this logic..End User (IAF ) is not happy with the proposition of using M88 core in KAVERI and wants it completely indigenous..


 
This is where I get pissed off on our Armed Forces

On the first go they want everything indigenous instead of a gradual procedure and that is why there was so many delays on Arjun and Tejas.

Kaveri is our first attempt and instead of a foreign engine it is way better to have an Indian engine with a French core which can be then replaced later with an upgraded Indian core (Kabini).


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## Water Car Engineer

This short list is true.


SAAB confirmed not being in the short list.

*Saab: Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme
*



> LINKÖPING, Sweden--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Regulatory News:
> 
> Today defence and security company Saab AB (STO:SAABB.st - News) has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> 
> We are offering India a world class next generation fighter aircraft to a very competitive price and an extensive technology transfer programme. We have received this decision and will closely monitor the future process and provide additional information if requested by the Indian Ministry of Defence. We are confident that the Gripen system is the perfect match for the Indian Air Force as well as meeting the highest requirements for the international markets, says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO at Saab.
> 
> India is one of Saabs most important markets. For example, Saab recently announced an investment in a research and development centre in India.
> 
> We are committed to the Indian market and continue our plans for growth and see huge business opportunities in the aerospace, defence and security sectors, says Håkan Buskhe.
> 
> Gripen is in service with the Swedish, Czech Republic, Hungarian, South African and Royal Thai Air Forces. The UK Empire Test Pilots School (ETPS) is operating Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots worldwide.
> 
> Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers changing needs.



Saab: Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme - Yahoo! Finance


*edit*

Repost..


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## RazorMC

Seems that India was paying attention to the RCS of the aircraft which is a good strategy for air defense in the modern world.
I suggest Rafale, low rcs, better tech and with good looks.

But now India would be looking for better deals esp for ToT.

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## tallboy123

RazorMC said:


> Seems that India was paying attention to the RCS of the aircraft which is a good strategy for air defense in the modern world.
> I suggest Rafale, low rcs, better tech and with good looks.
> 
> But now India would be looking for better deals esp for ToT.


 Dassault offers FULL TOT and no End user agreement like US cismoa,or EUMA...
and rafale is Nuke capable too

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## baker

ok..... it is very much clear who is going rule asian airspace in future......................... well done MOD good decision.. 

IAF owners pride ..... neighbors envy .....

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## President Camacho

Not needed anymore....


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## KS

Patanjali said:


> Forgive me for my ignorance regarding the MRCA, but just wondering if the french are providing any sort of tech-transfer...


 
They are already providing it for our Kaveri Engine and have promised a whole lot of ToT including AESA radars and integration of Kaveri in the Rafale instead of the Snecma M88 if Rafale is selected.

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## Water Car Engineer

Patanjali said:


> Forgive me for my ignorance regarding the MRCA, but just wondering if the french are providing any sort of tech-transfer...


 
HA! French are going all out man!



> The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.
> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues as well as potential sales to Pakistan, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".



Look at that deal!!! Almost too good to be true!!

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## tallboy123

self delete


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## SpArK

RazorMC said:


> Seems that India was paying attention to the RCS of the aircraft which is a good strategy for air defense in the modern world.
> I suggest Rafale, low rcs, better tech and with good looks.
> 
> But now India would be looking for better deals esp for ToT.


 


> Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol.
> 
> 
> Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer.
> 
> ''The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).
> 
> ''This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,'' Chabriol said.




domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale

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## tallboy123

> 'The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too.* Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval.* In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).


that point has to be noted before going for EF...
But Rafale doesnt have any problem like EF has in this issue


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## Prometheus

Rafeal will be the arch angel of indian air force


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## wakapdf

YOU LUCKY BASTAR--DS. HAVE FUN

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## kingdurgaking

koushik said:


> Thank you for your respect towards me.I may be 16 but my heart lies in defence and military stuff.i love every minute in PDF.i have become so interested in defence by following u guys for the past three years.i have just started my Class-XI and i want to join IAF as a fighter pilot.i love india,armed forces and i love all indian members here that's what inspires me to share my lil knowledge which have with all my bhaiyas.


 
do your grades well .... and opt for good academy in defence which gives a good post


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## Abingdonboy

Liquid said:


> HA! French are going all out man!
> 
> Forgive me for my ignorance regarding the MRCA, but just wondering if the french are providing any sort of tech-transfer...
> Original Post By Patanjali
> HA! French are going all out man!
> 
> The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.
> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues *as well as potential sales to Pakist*an, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".
> 
> 
> 
> Look at that deal!!! Almost too good to be true!!




I assume ^^^ that if/when IAF go for Rafale that a possible sale to PAF will be out of the question? Especially as the PAF could not compete in numbers especially after recent economic history?


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## AsianLion

How many LCA squadrons are flying with IAF? How many super kool, Tejas in inventory? LCA is a Mirage copy in any case, sorry to bust your bubbles. 

The reference as earlier put was a deep dent on the so-called Indian "indigenous" efforts as compared to Pakistan; that if, it was a home-made fighters success, MMRCA deal was 'NOT' necessary at all. Pakistan is not looking to buy Rafales, EF as it is now self-sufficient to make Jf17s, J10s and further make strides in "Joint-Ventures" with China.



subarihant said:


> Neighbours envy, owners pride.


LOL - No envy at all, infact it will good fighting and hunting. 

The point is, its a failure of Indian Air Force to look for foreign western aircrafts when it says its Tejas and LCAs are a success story. And Rafale is not shown to be a success jet as of late if sweet add-ons hadn't been put by French Govt.;

Rather IMO, along EF - F18 Silent Eagle or Gripen NG could have been a deadly combo if at all India wants to buy high-fi foreign aircrafts. Pakistan is partly happy for Rafale deal and partly worried due to the lethal Euro-Fighter.


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## Abingdonboy

AsianUnion said:


> How many LCA squadrons are flying with IAF? How many super kool, Tejas in inventory? LCA is a Mirage copy in any case, sorry to bust your bubbles.
> 
> The reference as earlier put was a deep dent on the so-called Indian "indigenous" efforts as compared to Pakistan; that if, it was a home-made fighters success, MMRCA deal was 'NOT' necessary at all. Pakistan is not looking to buy Rafales, EF as it is now self-sufficient to make Jf17s, J10s and further make strides in "Joint-Ventures" with China.
> 
> 
> LOL - No envy at all, infact it will good fighting and hunting.
> 
> The point is, its a failure of Indian Air Force to look for foreign western aircrafts when it says its Tejas and LCAs are a success story. And Rafale is not shown to be a success jet as of late if sweet add-ons hadn't been put by French Govt.;
> 
> Rather IMO, along EF - F18 Silent Eagle or Gripen NG could have been a deadly combo if at all India wants to buy high-fi foreign aircrafts. Pakistan is partly happy for Rafale deal and partly worried due to the lethal Euro-Fighter.


 
Firstly- what has this to do with the LCA? A- NOTHING. 

Secondly- sour grapes? It was clear whatever IAF picked you would have said- no threat PAF is best AF in the world! The IAF today can easily handle the PAF, in 2020 once a significant amount of MMRCA and PAK-FA/FGFA are nducted you won't even be able to touch them! Rafale or EFT PAF is scr£wed!

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## relativiti

AsianUnion said:


> How many LCA squadrons are flying with IAF? How many super kool, Tejas in inventory? LCA is a Mirage copy in any case, sorry to bust your bubbles.
> 
> The reference as earlier put was a deep dent on the so-called Indian "indigenous" efforts as compared to Pakistan; that if, it was a home-made fighters success, MMRCA deal was 'NOT' necessary at all. Pakistan is not looking to buy Rafales, EF as it is now self-sufficient to make Jf17s, J10s and further make strides in "Joint-Ventures" with China.
> 
> 
> LOL - No envy at all, infact it will good fighting and hunting.
> 
> The point is, its a failure of Indian Air Force to look for foreign western aircrafts when it says its Tejas and LCAs are a success story. And Rafale is not shown to be a success jet as of late if sweet add-ons hadn't been put by French Govt.;
> 
> Rather IMO, along EF - F18 Silent Eagle or Gripen NG could have been a deadly combo if at all India wants to buy high-fi foreign aircrafts. Pakistan is partly happy for Rafale deal and partly worried due to the lethal Euro-Fighter.


 
i smell someone's A$$ burning


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## below_freezing

Indians celebrate when they buy a foreign aircraft and cry when they see their own.
Chinese celebrate when they see their own and cry when they buy foreign.

Such is the difference between us. Hope you're happy with the Rafales.

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## Abhishek_

@ AU, how many F16s does PAF operate, and how many J17s are in service?


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## relativiti

below_freezing said:


> Indians celebrate when they buy a foreign aircraft and cry when they see their own.
> Chinese celebrate when they see their own and cry when they buy foreign.
> 
> Such is the difference between us. Hope you're happy with the Rafales.



correction
Chinese celebrate when they copy foreign and cry when they buy foreign.

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## Pfpilot

Asian Union
I feel like you are giving too much credit to the Pakistani indigenous capability, our home made fighter success is largely a result of Chinese growth in aeronautics, they provided the avionics, designed the plane and our jf-17s carry Chinese armaments. Pakistans role is ever increasing but lets not compare with the LCA, whatever it is now, the IAF doesn't have the same urgency that the PAF does. India does not have the same fear of sanctions and lack of funds...they can easily scrap the whole program and buy all their planes from the outside if they so desired.

As for the topic at hand. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are superb aircraft, cant go wrong with either. I would think the Rafale fits the role of a multi role aircraft better. Having the Eurofighter will replicate many of the strengths of the su-30mki. None the less, either way, the IAF wins. The PAF also loved the two aircraft, and if we had the money back in the day, we most probably would have gone for them.

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## AsianLion

Abingdonboy said:


> Firstly- what has this to do with the LCA? A- NOTHING.
> 
> Secondly- sour grapes? It was clear whatever IAF picked you would have said- no threat PAF is best AF in the world! The IAF today can easily handle the PAF, in 2020 once a significant amount of MMRCA and PAK-FA/FGFA are nducted you won't even be able to touch them! Rafale or EFT PAF is scr£wed!



LCA as said is not sufficiently ready or infact a failed deal, which pushes the Indian requirement to have a must MMRCA. If India was confident of LCA, Tejas to take out PAF/Chinese Fighter Aircrafts, you should not be buying or wasting too much money buying Rafales and EFs. Invest that money in home, and create a plane ready to shoot your enemy down.

Also PAF had evaluated Rafale and EF jets - EF is considered to be a deadly aircraft but doubt persists on Rafales performance(unless PAF specific upgrades are installed, wont be discussing that). Typhoons and EF are with Saudia's which inadvertently been tested and flown by PAF pilots. 

My friend 2020 is far away, talk about now, and who leads now, and who is getting screwed with video clips like, "IAF is loosing edge over PAF etc etc".

Hopefully, there would be much surprises waiting for IAF by 2020, and therefore cannot make conclusions based on your assumptions. 



relativiti said:


> i smell someone's A$$ burning


 
LOL - kids won't understand the logic. Keep yourself happy with these above quotes, donot need to steep to your level.


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## Abhishek_

a decent thread ruined by a single troll. way to go guys

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## relativiti

AsianUnion said:


> LCA as said is not sufficiently ready or infact a failed deal, which pushes the Indian requirement to have a must MMRCA. If India was confident of LCA, Tejas to take out PAF/Chinese Fighter Aircrafts, you should not be buying or wasting too much money buying Rafales and EFs. Invest that money in home, and create a plane ready to shoot your enemy down.
> 
> Also PAF had evaluated Rafale and EF jets - EF is considered to be a deadly aircraft but doubt persists on Rafales performance(unless PAF specific upgrades are installed, wont be discussing that). Typhoons and EF are with Saudia's which inadvertently been tested and flown by PAF pilots.
> 
> My friend 2020 is far away, talk about now, and who leads now, and who is getting screwed with video clips like, "IAF is loosing edge over PAF etc etc".
> 
> Hopefully, there would be much surprises waiting for IAF by 2020, and therefore cannot make conclusions based on your assumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL - kids won't understand the logic. Keep yourself happy with these above quotes, donot need to steep to your level.


 
great i am blessed with the interaction of a LCA guruji!!
just read the post by pfpilot, it makes more sense


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## desimorty

> The point is, its a failure of Indian Air Force to look for foreign western aircrafts when it says its Tejas and LCAs are a success story. And Rafale is not shown to be a success jet as of late if sweet add-ons hadn't been put by French Govt.;
> 
> Rather IMO, along EF - F18 Silent Eagle or Gripen NG could have been a deadly combo if at all India wants to buy high-fi foreign aircrafts. Pakistan is partly happy for Rafale deal and partly worried due to the lethal Euro-Fighter.


I disagree.
The Rafale, right now is actually in FULL service! including advancement of tactics.
These MMRCA contracts are going hand in hand with the Tejas program. How? well, let me use an example
The Chinese built prototypes of J-10s. The project didn't go onto full scale production until the arrival of equipment used in the manufacturing of Su-27s. Even the J-11 and J-11B are not illegal copies, but licences production aircraft. If the Russians weren't get royalty, they wouldn't have supplied China with engines. But the Chinese are complying with Russian demands for ToT.
The engines the J-10 uses until recently had a service life of 30 hrs compared to 300 hrs of the Russian variant. Now we speculate that the engine is in service. In fact its not completely Chinese. Had it been a completely new design, the aircraft would have required a major airframe change.
Instead, what you actually see, is that the Chinese are Russian hardware, where every domestic products are not on par.
This is to say, today the J-10 wouldn't be possible with out Russian ToT of Su-27s. Basically jumping from manufacturing Fishbeds aka J-7s to J-10s. All this was possible because of the ToT associated with it. The Chinese did pay for much more flankers, than India. They have more in service and each time they modify the airframe, to call it J-11bs or 15, what ever it may be, they still check with the Russians, to see if its actually possible and proceed with at their own risk.
As far as the MMRCA is concerned. This is the same deal as the above.
The manufacturing process is slow and the machines not enough. Even the engine, while a great design is not manufactured properly. We have known issues early that the Kaveri was spitting out blades. So was the the Chinese engine. The MMRCA contract would bring ToT. Not a complete ToT, but what ever is more economical, and can be forwarded to the production and localization of the Tejas.
The French know this. Their bid is desperate and best for a Win-Win.
As far as Gripen, is concerned, while it can have all these things, ToT of the engine will be in the hands of the Americans. The engine ToT is more important than the AESA itself. Not to mention, that if they got these technologies, and implemented it on the Tejas. You would have the same aircraft!
The Hornet, and Falcon will not come with complete ToT, and they do not meet the QSR. While the Falcrum certianly could pull a complete ToT, it failed miserably on QSR.

Like I said, QSR and the lowest bidder. ToT is a must have to upgrade HALs facilities to manufacture a new generation of aircraft.

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## Yeti

wow i missed this! being away Spark you made my day with this


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## AsianLion

Abhishek_ said:


> @ AU, how many F16s does PAF operate, and how many J17s are in service?


Enough to kick some serious butt of the enemy now! Go figure out the numbers yourself! 



Pfpilot said:


> Asian Union
> I feel like you are giving too much credit to the Pakistani indigenous capability, our home made fighter success is largely a result of Chinese growth in aeronautics, they provided the avionics, designed the plane and our jf-17s carry Chinese armaments. Pakistans role is ever increasing but lets not compare with the LCA, whatever it is now, the IAF doesn't have the same urgency that the PAF does. India does not have the same fear of sanctions and lack of funds...they can easily scrap the whole program and buy all their planes from the outside if they so desired.
> 
> As for the topic at hand. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are superb aircraft, cant go wrong with either. I would think the Rafale fits the role of a multi role aircraft better. Having the Eurofighter will replicate many of the strengths of the su-30mki. None the less, either way, the IAF wins. The PAF also loved the two aircraft, and if we had the money back in the day, we most probably would have gone for them.


 
Affirmative, hadn't Pakistan "not" decided to have a "joint venture" with China and made Jf17 Thunders to operational level with 2 squardrons flying defending Pakistani Air Space, Pakistan condition would have been what is now "Indias", unable to have LCAs or Tejas in squadron levels - spending huge sums to buy western aircrafts.

Spending billions is better or spending enough to home-make comparable aircrafts. I know it bode well for Pakistan long-term, the MMRCA decision.


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## localoca

below_freezing said:


> Such is the difference between us. Hope you're happy with the Rafales.


 Such the Difference between a Real SuperPower and a Wannabe...

India wished they could build their own MMRCA to counter J-20...

let them have their Rafale, its a 4th gen fighter, Nothing compared to the latest tech J-20...


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## Abhishek_

localoca said:


> Such the Difference between a Real SuperPower and a Wannabe...
> 
> India wished they could build their own MMRCA to counter J-20...
> 
> let them have their Rafale, its a 4th gen fighter, Nothing compared to the latest tech J-20...



Be a man loco, PAK-FA will manhandle the J-20

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## Abhishek_

AsianUnion said:


> Enough to kick some serious butt of the enemy now! Go figure out the numbers yourself!


 
does that mean loosing a third of PAF planes like last time?

The reason I asked was since you were railing on us for getting a full TOT euro plane while you guys have more F-16s (compared to jf17s) without TOT.
A look at the mirror will do wonders to your arguments

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## Water Car Engineer

> Affirmative, hadn't Pakistan "not" decided to have a "joint venture" with China and made Jf17 Thunders to operational level with 2 squardrons flying defending Pakistani Air Space, Pakistan condition would have been what is now "Indias", unable to have LCAs or Tejas in squadron levels - spending huge sums to buy western aircrafts.



What's 'Pakistani' in the JF-17?

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## Yeti

India scraps Gripen from its jet shortlist - The Economic Times

STOCKHOLM: India has scrapped Saab's Gripen from its fighter jet shortlist in its drive to modernise its armed forces, the Swedish aircraft builder said on Wednesday. 

"Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian ministry of defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme," the company said in a statement. 

India is planning to replace its fleet of 26 ageing MiG 21 Soviet-era jets to the tune of some 11 billion euros ($16 billion). Other than Saab, it is also considering France's Dassault, Russia's MiG, America's Boeing and Lockheed Martin , Europe's EADS , Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica as possible suppliers. 

"We have received this decision and will closely monitor the future process and provide additional information if requested by the Indian ministry of defence," SAAB chief executive officer Haakan Buskhe said. He insisted the Gripen was a world class fighter, and that India was being offered a "very competitive price". 

The Gripen is already in service in the air forces of Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa and Thailand, the company said. The jet was first deployed operationally in the current NATO strikes on targets aligned to Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi .


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## Yeti

Dont mind either the sexy omni-role Rafale or the EF either one will be just fine


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## AsianLion

jatt said:


> I disagree.
> The Rafale, right now is actually in FULL service! including advancement of tactics.
> These MMRCA contracts are going hand in hand with the Tejas program. How? well, let me use an example



Tejas program being part of the larger deal with MMRCA means Tejas as of now is a flop, by that I would like to point a few points:

- It has been years and years since LCA and Tejas have been in "indigenous" development.

- Without MMRCA, India still can get complete knowledge and engine ToT for Tejas and LCA. This shows lack of confidence and a weakness in your jets with MMRCA.

- Would you be willing to spend billions on buying foreign tech or rather spend lesser in your own tech and produce at home, while spend the rest eliminating the poor millions of Indians from slums.

TOT(transfer of technology) doesnot allow you complete transfer of equipment, materials, designs etc etc...you are still dependant on the seller for a long long time as in the case of Su 30 MKIs. The spare parts are still arriving from Russia and the cost of plane is still the market value as sold to other countries although TOT has happened.

Rafale has defects, and all knows about it, rather I would ask you how many buyers are there for the over-priced Rafale jets?


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## AsianLion

Abhishek_ said:


> does that mean loosing a third of PAF planes like last time?
> 
> The reason I asked was since you were railing on us for getting a full TOT euro plane while you guys have more F-16s (compared to jf17s) without TOT.
> A look at the mirror will do wonders to your arguments


What about you, you have "NONE" as compared to our JF17s ? And Jf17 numbers by end year would be 42. There is no envy of India getting Rafale or EFs but I was rather pointing out that your Tejas and LCA have failed completed with no operational squadrons and so goes that "indigenous" Indian tag.

Secondly, Rafale jet a rejected jet with or without Tot with such price is a "BAD" decision, I would still go for Gripen - NG, F-18s or F-15 the Silent Eagle(stealth) version. EF with anyone of my mentioned planes is far deadly combination than Rafale & EF.

Anyways GOOD LUCK with your purchases. 



Liquid said:


> What's 'Pakistani' in the JF-17?


Enough Pakistani in it, to make India fell on its knees in the coming war. And we donot require to buy Rafales and EuroFighters, Su30s for that matter.


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## gubbi

AsianUnion said:


> T*ejas program being part of the larger deal with MMRCA means Tejas as of now is a flop*, by that I would like to point a few points:
> 
> - It* has been years and years since LCA and Tejas have been in "indigenous" development*.
> 
> - Without MMRCA, India still can get complete knowledge and engine ToT for Tejas and LCA. This show*s lack of confidence and a weakness in your jets with MMRCA*.
> 
> - *Would you be willing to spend billions on buying foreign tech or rather spend lesser in your own tech and produce at home, while spend the rest eliminating the poor millions of Indians from slums*.
> 
> TOT(transfer of technology) doesnot allow you complete transfer of equipment, materials, designs etc etc...you are still dependant on the seller for a long long time as in the case of Su 30 MKIs. The spare parts are still arriving from Russia and the cost of plane is still the market value as sold to other countries although TOT has happened.
> 
> Rafale has defects, and all knows about it, rather I would ask you how many buyers are there for the over-priced Rafale jets?


 
What are you blabbering about? Get your thoughts in order and then come up with a coherent post. 
First you club LCA program with MMRCA - when LCA has nothing to do with it. LCA and MMRCA are very two different platforms/requirements for IAF.
Secondly, without as much as doing a little research, you are convinced that LCA is a failure (your criteria being?) and then go on to blabber about how indigenous programs are better than buying foreign stuff.
Then you again blabber like the village dimwit about Su-30MKI's production when you have no idea about HAL's manufacturing capabilities.
And lastly, you yap about Rafale's defects. What do you know about them? DO you even know how an aircraft flies? FYI, the best pilots dont fly the MKI, they are assigned to the Mirage. If there's any light burning upstairs, that should give you some information/idea.

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## localoca

gubbi said:


> What do you know about them?


Yet another illiterate troll


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## shree835

localoca said:


> Hate... I actualy Pity the 800 million of illiterate Indians your goverment don't feed just to buy weapons instead of build them


 
Fellow don worry...we know well how to deal with all those... In the same time we have to deal with neighbor also... So this is Just for them&#8230; In case If need some more then we will order some Chinese&#8230;


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## gubbi

localoca said:


> Yet another illiterate troll


 
O Enligntened one!!! Please, why dont you show us, the lesser ones, the truth.

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## Abhishek_

AsianUnion said:


> Enough Pakistani in it, to make India fell on its knees in the coming war. And we donot require to buy Rafales and EuroFighters, Su30s for that matter.


 
the coming war?? deal with the one you already have on your hands boy. 
yes you do not require rafaels and eurofighters, you need electricity to power the fan above your head first.

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## AsianLion

Yeti said:


> India scraps Gripen from its jet shortlist - The Economic Times
> The Gripen is already in service in the air forces of Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa and Thailand, the company said. The jet was first deployed operationally in the current NATO strikes on targets aligned to Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi .



Thankyou for the link mr Indian, to finally prove my point, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with *" 5 " customers*. You do the math, who wins, hands down. EF and Gripen NG, the better choice, FAIL IAF, FAIL India again! 



localoca said:


> Hate... I actualy Pity the 800 million of illiterate Indians your goverment don't feed just to buy weapons instead of build them


 
Haha! Pity pity. Those 800 million Indians are "less important" than the super cool Rafales and EuroFighters.


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## localoca

gubbi said:


> O Enligntened one!!! Please, why dont you show us, the lesser ones, the truth.


You can't handle the truth!


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## subarihant

AsianUnion said:


> Thankyou for the link mr Indian, to finally prove my point, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with *" 5 " customers*. You do the math, who wins, hands down. EF and Gripen NG, the better choice, FAIL IAF, FAIL India again!



Was Rafale the final selection? Rafale and EF are down selected, so aren't you coming to conclusion quickly ? Lol.....


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## gubbi

localoca said:


> You can't handle the truth!


 
Lol, good one! 
Anyhow, is that because you dont know it?


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## localoca

subarihant said:


> Was Rafale the final selection? Rafale and EF are down selected, so aren't you coming to conclusion quickly ? Lol.....


 its the only one...


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## localoca

gubbi said:


> Lol, good one!


 Like if you have any idea of what A Few Good Men means...


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## AsianLion

subarihant said:


> Was Rafale the final selection? Rafale and EF are down selected, so aren't you coming to conclusion quickly ? Lol.....



So are you telling me Rafale and EF are not even final selected yet! What is this thread about- bak bak ?

In any case Saab's official confirmation means Gripen NG is out. Is stupid India looking to buy one out of two, Rafale or EF ? hahaha I love them when the chickens change their statements.


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## subarihant

localoca said:


> its the only one...



Who said it is the only one ? huh?


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## subarihant

AsianUnion said:


> So are you telling me Rafale and EF are not even final selected yet! What is this thread about- bak bak ?
> 
> In any case Saab's official confirmation means Gripen NG is out. Is stupid India looking to buy one out of two, Rafale or EF ? hahaha I love them when the chickens change their statements.


 
No, I am telling that you are gloating that IAF is Fail coz it selected Rafale, I was merely pointing that isn't final and EF is still standing which u consider as a capable fighter, thats why I say aren't u celebrating apparent IAF's failure(according to u) early.


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## localoca

subarihant said:


> Who said it is the only one ? huh?


Anybody with a brain... but I don't expect much from you Indians


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## subarihant

localoca said:


> Anybody with a brain... but I don't expect much from you Indians


 
Nice trolling, go ahead, I am not for the bait. Happy trolling !!


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## anon45

While not the optimal outcome for the US, it is still a good outcome for our geopolitical objectives. India chose a European plane/French Plane, and Europe/France are on the same side as the US (NATO).

Not a great day, but it is a good day. If the story is true.

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## localoca

anon45 said:


> While not the optimal outcome for the US, it is still a good outcome for our geopolitical objectives.


 who gives a Damn what America thinks? like if afew F-18 could stop China from Blitzing India?


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## gubbi

localoca said:


> Like if you have any idea of what A Few Good Men means...


 
Actually I am surprised that given the quality of your posts, you can understand English/Hollywood movies at all.


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## subarihant

anon45 said:


> While not the optimal outcome for the US, it is still a good outcome for our geopolitical objectives. India chose a European plane/French Plane, and Europe/France are on the same side as the US (NATO).
> 
> Not a great day, but it is a good day. If the story is true.



Yes, I think India is trying to balance out. As India has problems with US, arming of Pak and also the cold war history, I guess they are trying to buy defensive weapons from US (P8I, C130J, C17 etc). As, the relation matures with time, in future, I guess, there will be more defence deals with US.


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## AsianLion

gubbi said:


> What are you blabbering about? Get your thoughts in order and then come up with a coherent post.
> First you club LCA program with MMRCA - when LCA has nothing to do with it. LCA and MMRCA are very two different platforms/requirements for IAF.
> Secondly, without as much as doing a little research, you are convinced that LCA is a failure (your criteria being?) and then go on to blabber about how indigenous programs are better than buying foreign stuff.
> Then you again blabber like the village dimwit about Su-30MKI's production when you have no idea about HAL's manufacturing capabilities.
> And lastly, you yap about Rafale's defects. What do you know about them? DO you even know how an aircraft flies? FYI, the best pilots dont fly the MKI, they are assigned to the Mirage. If there's any light burning upstairs, that should give you some information/idea.


Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.



jatt said:


> These MMRCA contracts are going hand in hand with the Tejas program. How? well, let me use an example.


Continued...

Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.

Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.

Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone. 

Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?


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## localoca

gubbi said:


> Actually I am surprised that given the quality of your posts, you can understand English/Hollywood movies at all.


Wow and I am surprised it took you long enough for you to find that on google...

I was raised in Utah, go on take your time in google to find what Utah means


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## AsianLion

subarihant said:


> No, I am telling that you are gloating that IAF is Fail coz it selected Rafale, I was merely pointing that isn't final and EF is still standing which u consider as a capable fighter, thats why I say aren't u celebrating apparent IAF's failure(according to u) early.


 
Fair enough! Now I have to respect that!  
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And this thread is a FAILURE!

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## kriish

PANDORA said:


> DAMN !!!!! i told everyone here ................ *Pandora's crystal ball *


 
Maaaan u have a pretty big ball there  and pretty colorful


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## Yeti

wise move we can get full source codes with these birds unlike the bugged f16 and f18s/h


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## gubbi

AsianUnion said:


> Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.
> 
> 
> Continued...
> 
> Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.
> 
> Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.
> 
> Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone.
> 
> Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?


 
Honestly dude, that ramble of a post of yours says you need a therapist.

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## gubbi

localoca said:


> Wow and I am surprised it took you long enough for you to find that on google...
> 
> I was raised in Utah, go on take your time in google to find what Utah means


 
Oh Exalted one, I finally found Utah! It says its full of Mormons. Thanks for telling me about "Google". Will that also tell me where Pakistan and India are, oh learned one?


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## Roybot

What a beast!

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## JayAtl

subarihant said:


> Nice trolling, go ahead, I am not for the bait. Happy trolling !!


 
let him be , they think that tin foil of J whatever , unproved piece of garbage is up to any standard. you are debating a guy who thinks fly rice= kick a$$ aircraft.


----------



## JayAtl

AsianUnion said:


> Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.
> 
> 
> Continued...
> 
> Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.
> 
> Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.
> 
> Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone.
> 
> Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?


 
Pakistan's LCA = Drone


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## rajusri

*Rafale, Rafale Rafale nothing else. * 










below_freezing said:


> Indians celebrate when they buy a foreign aircraft and cry when they see their own.
> Chinese celebrate when they see their own and cry when they buy foreign.
> 
> Such is the difference between us. Hope you're happy with the Rafales.


 
Here starts low quality troll. I was reading the thread but it is the first one to troll. Do you have any other option that your low quality weapons and some Russian second class? lol


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## rajusri

localoca said:


> Hate... I actualy Pity the 800 million of illiterate Indians your goverment don't feed just to buy weapons instead of build them


 
I feel sorry for you who literally live on foreign money and failed to save own citizen from drone attacks.

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## rajusri

localoca said:


> Such the Difference between a Real SuperPower and a Wannabe...
> 
> India wished they could build their own MMRCA to counter J-20...
> 
> let them have their Rafale, its a 4th gen fighter, Nothing compared to the latest tech J-20...



Comparing French technology with chinese!   

and pakistan do not have j-20.


----------



## gubbi

SpArK said:


> *India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
> *The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.
> 
> *StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*


 
No F-18SH?






It makes sense going with Rafale. EF, not so much.
Remember boys, IAF wanted a good strike platform and they were quite happy with Mirage's performance during Kargil. The initial plan was to go with more Mirages, but MoD stepped in to expand that tender. Out of all the contenders, only the F-18SH and Rafale were designed from the ground up as primarily strike platforms. I had hoped it to be F-18SH. But Rafale is not a bad choice either. This from an amateur aviation enthusiast. The professionals know much more.


----------



## jha

*Your firms are out of fighter contract fray, India tells US*

Taking a decision based on technical evaluation, the government has told the United States that its two companies bidding for the $10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract are now out of the fray. Sources said only two of the six companies will be called in tomorrow to extend their commercial bids.

This decision was prompted by the fact that commercial bids for all six players were to expire by the end of this month. The government had the choice of asking all six to extend their commercial bids and keep the suspense alive. But given the deep interest being shown by the political leaderships of the countries behind the bidders, the government possibly thought it appropriate not to prolong the decision-making process.

US President Barack Obama had taken this up with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his visit to India and followed it up with a letter highlighting this contract as being important to his administration.

Your firms are out of fighter contract fray, India tells US

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## subarihant

rajusri said:


> *Rafale, Rafale Rafale nothing else. *



@rajusri, what happened to nikitha ?

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## TOPGUN

Good for India they soon will have the fighter of their choice our of the two and btw some of you have lost your damn minds trolling and etc don't start to troll on the happiness and they won't attack you back viseversa keep the damn thread clean ..

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## aimarraul

this will be a real threat to PLAAF and PAF, wonder how we are going to counter it, it's time for pakistan to reach out to U.S and sweden,they must be really mad now 



sancho said:


> *Remember MMRCAs are meant mainly for north eastern borders *and has no big relation to JF17, so let's not go for useless vs. discussions and keep it on news, infos, or discussions about EF and Rafale only.


better hurry up,lots of things could happen in 5 years


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## TOPGUN

aimarraul said:


> this will be a real threat to PLAAF and PAF, wonder how we are going to counter it, it's time for pakistan to reach out to U.S and sweden,they must be really mad now


 
No boss we are not mad and what you think PAF has been sleeping this wasn't a secret kept in closed doors it was out in the open... we have always defended ourselves with a 1 to 3 ratio in size and still won't find it a issue to do so if the moment arises to defend our land one can not compare PAF with IF in size now China you tell me .. maybe your AF needs to worry about it or not?


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## kish

i hope we can see Rafale with IAF pilot . ..


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## aimarraul

TOPGUN said:


> No boss we are not mad and what you think PAF has been sleeping this wasn't a secret kept in closed doors it was out in the open... we have always defended ourselves with a 1 to 3 ratio in size and still won't find it a issue to do so if the moment arises to defend our land one can not compare PAF with IF in size now China you tell me .. maybe your AF needs to worry about it or not?



"they"=U.S and sweden,calm down,friend....
it's a chance for pakistan to get something that he always want.....


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## Laughing_soldier

aimarraul said:


> this will be a real threat to PLAAF and PAF, wonder how we are going to counter it, it's time for pakistan to reach out to U.S and sweden,they must be really mad now


SU-30MKI is the real threat to you, MMRCA will be over kill. 

What Pakistan will get from US and Sweden? 




> better hurry up,lots of things could happen in 5 years


 We are already enough capable, you better hurry up with those chinese weapons.

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

rafale.


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## Abhishek_

tone down the war rhetoric boys. CPC and GOI are sane enough to avoid war at all costs, weapons procurement is only for deterrent so relatively balanced diplomacy can take place. I'm sure both countries will grow interdependent in the coming years.
both countries have plenty of poor people that we urgently need to uplift, developing economies is the only way forward

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## aimarraul

Laughing_soldier said:


> SU-30MKI is the real threat to you, MMRCA will be over kill.
> 
> What Pakistan will get from US and Sweden?
> 
> 
> 
> We are already enough capable, you better hurry up with those chinese weapons.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------
> 
> rafale.


 
hmm,can MKI fly without tyres,did anyone tell indian before that russia was offering china two type of su-30MK back in 90',guess which one we choice finally.MKI=&#21326;&#32780;&#19981;&#23454;&#65292;it looks glamorous ,but far inferior to F16C/D


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## jha

Guys..What is this Trolling ..? Cant you guys spare any thread...

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## Laughing_soldier

aimarraul said:


> hmm,can MKI fly without tyres,did anyone tell indian before that russia was offering two type of su-30MK back in 90',guess which one we choice finally.


No aircrafts needs tyres to fly but wings. It needs tyres to take of and land.  



> MKI=&#21326;&#32780;&#19981;&#23454;&#65292;it looks glamorous ,but far inferior to F16C/D


 F-22 inferior to FC-1?


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

i wd personally prefer rafale.

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## Laughing_soldier

jha said:


> Guys..What is this Trolling ..? Cant you guys spare any thread...


 
This sore loser started. 



aimarraul said:


> this will be a real threat to PLAAF and PAF, wonder how we are going to counter it, it's time for pakistan to reach out to U.S and sweden,they must be really mad now
> 
> 
> better hurry up,lots of things could happen in 5 years


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## kingdurgaking

I guess there is a standard rule ...it seems.. what ever China choose/buy or invent is a technically advanced product in that particular field..


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## Laughing_soldier




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## Laughing_soldier




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## Laughing_soldier

---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

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## Roby

Rafale all the way


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## aimarraul

Laughing_soldier said:


> This sore loser started.



started ? i just politely replied to sancho's post.......


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## conworldus

Why is every Indian member here rooting for Rafael not the EF?


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## Kompromat

Typhoon remains the favorite.


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## koushik

For all the fanboys who think that the Tejas is a copy of the Mirage 2000 it is for them. 1)Firstly the Mirage 2000 has its air intakes above the wing just behind the aircraft fuselage whereas in the Tejas the air intakes are serpentine air intakes located under the wing behind the fuselage this goes to show the differences in its airframe structure. 2)The wings of The Tejas is made almost entirely of Carbon Fibre Composites whereas the Mirage 2000 has its wings made titanium alloy with a carbon-alloy linning.


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## blackops

conworldus said:


> Why is every Indian member here rooting for Rafael not the EF?


 
because ef is still not fully ready (a2g) and rafale is all ready and more upgrades are coming though ef is also a very good choice but it will take time to mature which iaf cant afford


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## Awesome

The Americans truly didn't deserve the Indian order, they got what was coming to them, playing both sides. They antagonized Pakistan so much to get this deal, hopefully when they come crawling back we will be looking towards China too.


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## blackops

koushik said:


> For all the fanboys who think that the Tejas is a copy of the Mirage 2000 it is for them. 1)Firstly the Mirage 2000 has its air intakes above the wing just behind the aircraft fuselage whereas in the Tejas the air intakes are serpentine air intakes located under the wing behind the fuselage this goes to show the differences in its airframe structure. 2)The wings of The Tejas is made almost entirely of Carbon Fibre Composites whereas the Mirage 2000 has its wings made titanium alloy with a carbon-alloy linning.


 
all has been discussed in lca stickey thread


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## Awesome

Logic states they should go for EF. No conflicts of interest with Pakistan. France unlike the Americans will continue to sell to Pakistan as long as we want to buy something from them. Its also several years a newer platform than the Rafale.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan needs to act fast we should go J-10B as soon as possible otherwise it can be to late


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## casual

what the hell happened? the F18 was a much better deal for india.


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## sudhir007

WoW WoW WoW WoW WoW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Big news I love Rafale but I have a Question rafale has short of thrust is it make any problem and did MoD release any detail of technical evaluation detail


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## Ajaxpaul

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan needs to act fast we should go J-10B as soon as possible otherwise it can be to late



welcome to the forum bro. have a nice stay


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## piyalghoshal

Asim Aquil said:


> Logic states they should go for EF. No conflicts of interest with Pakistan. France unlike the Americans will continue to sell to Pakistan as long as we want to buy something from them. Its also several years a newer platform than the Rafale.


 
Recently France has cancelled an big order from Pakistan for up-gradation of mirage and another order to buy some more jets after request from India as they will be used against India in war. So this not so simple that you will get what you will ask,the f-16 from america are a gift and is of bad quality.Pakistan government don have enough money to give an equivalent order to France.

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## koushik

blackops said:


> all has been discussed in lca stickey thread


 
I didnt know that coz i am new but i just wanted the TROLLS to understand that the LCA is not a copy of the Mirage 2000.


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## Devianz

sudhir007 said:


> WoW WoW WoW WoW WoW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Big news I love Rafale but I have a Question rafale has short of thrust is it make any problem and did MoD release any detail of technical evaluation detail


 
Add to that the tiny AESA radar, ~850 modules vs proposed ~1500 on the tiffy. It may hamper it's performance against LO fighters in future when everyones starts to field AESAs and long range AAMs.
IAF knows excactly what they want from MMRCA, whatever they choose would be the one that fits their doctrin the best.


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## kingdurgaking

koushik said:


> I didnt know that coz i am new but i just wanted the TROLLS to understand that the LCA is not a copy of the Mirage 2000.


 
What is the use??? they already knew it is not.. but they troll because of some burning sensation...


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## tvsram1992

tallboy123 said:


> So how much advanced is Rafale when compared to -16's block 50's



Rafale has brand new model while f-16's are based on 1980's outdated models. Rafale has more range and payload capability than f-16's


tallboy123 said:


> and J-10's,????


 Rafale has brand new model while f-16's are based on 1980's outdated models. Rafale has more range and payload capability than f-16's

I dont know why are you comparing tiger and fox.


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## GORKHALI

*HERE WE GO FOLKS EF VS RAFALE ,LETZ THE FIGHT BEGINNNN.....*
lol:

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## ironman

Saab's official announcement of elimination from the competition. 

http://feed.ne.cision.com/wpyfs/00/00/00/00/00/14/A7/46/wkr0005.pdf


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## tvsram1992

Source : Wikipedia:

The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010[30]) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be.[29] Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon.[35] Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.

Updated bids were requested by the MOD in April 2010. The IAF was to complete an evaluation report on the six fighters in July 2010 and then begin to shortlist them based on the air force's evaluations.[96] A report suggested Rafale and Typhoon were in the final stage.[97]
The Sunday Telegraph reported in November 2010 that the Eurofighter Typhoon was leading the competition on "technical terms". Now Indian government will take its strategic decision.[98] On 18 December 2010, the IAF chief stated that the "evaluation of the fighters has been completed and the matter is now with the Ministry of Defence". He was hopeful the deal would be signed by July next year [2011]".[99] It was reported on 27 April 2011 that only Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale made the cut to the shortlist.

so we would be getting rafale with aesa or eft with thrust vectoring. right???


----------



## mautkimaut

AsianUnion said:


> Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.
> 
> 
> Continued...
> 
> Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.
> 
> Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.
> 
> Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone.
> 
> Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?


 
Your JF-17 is as much indigenous as SU 30 MKI is ..
Russian engine in both.
You get the kit from China and assemble in your country.

Think about it ..
Pakistan does not even makes a car.how can it make a jet.
Pakistan is nothing but a client state of China and is happy to get whatever crumbs it can from China.

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## Manas

Whats the point of buying so many MKI ,EF or Rafale unless they get a chance to fly in the Pakistani airspace??


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## Markus

I have a feeling.

I think both Rafale and EF are heading for India.


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## rockstarIN

conworldus said:


> Why is every Indian member here rooting for Rafael not the EF?


 
Coz of limited capabilities in A2Gs, delay in AESA, higher cost etc.

But I still back EF...!! 

Why?

We can wait till EF T3 comes, there is dedicated attack air craft with us which will be there till T3 comes..

And money doesn't matter, we have enough money now..!!


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## F-16_Falcon

hmmmm  i wished india go for f-16 or mig.


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## Manas

Whats the point of buying so many MKI ,EF or Rafale unless they get a chance to fly in the Pakistani airspace??


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## rockstarIN

Markus said:


> I have a feeling.
> 
> I think both Rafale and EF are heading for India.


 
Well, the best is then select one of it and buy some cheap F-16s from second hand market..


----------



## KS

jha said:


> Guys..What is this Trolling ..? Cant you guys spare any thread...


 
Some people cant digest the MRCA selection is actually happening. 



Asim Aquil said:


> The Americans truly didn't deserve the Indian order, they got what was coming to them, playing both sides. They antagonized Pakistan so much to get this deal, hopefully when they come crawling back we will be looking towards China too.


 
The Americans have their hands full with billions of dollars in Indian defence contracts already excluding this one;

147 M777 Howitzers, about 10 (additional 6) C-17s, 6 (another optional 6) C 130Js , 8+4 P-8Is, Most possibly the 22 Apache Longbow attack helis, Chinooks transport helis etc.

This is pretty much huge for a relative new comer.


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## Ajaxpaul

With good music!!

Eurofighter Vs Rafale

[video]http://youtu.be/6kqR1H3RV3g[/video]


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## Ajaxpaul

Rafale video..from dassault.!! best ever video


[video]http://youtu.be/3pQj1ahmh6E[/video]

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## axisofevil

Yet we forget the Air France incident and how our Indian ppl were treated. We lack unity and solidarity. Both planes look great but we need to really dissect the issue from more than just the plane itself. France has at times held us hostage to supplies, upgrades, and they are heavily involved in bribing defense officials in the past. With EF we actually stand to become an actual partner in the program with the ability to have access to everything involved in the program, that my friends is more priceless than tech transfer which doesn;t aid our industry.


The question is are we looking to simply become a client state for weapons or are we trying to really make a domestic defense industry a priority? IF we go for EF for the industry sake, we all need to be aware that any successive administration selected to office should and cannot impede the research and development involved there. Otherwise, it will suspected to be corruption at the greatest magnitude.


----------



## GORKHALI

*LM RESPONSE *
UPDATE: Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute think tank and a consultant to Lockheed Martin says he has been told by company officials that both the F/A-18 and F-16 have been dropped from consideration by India. 

And here's Lockheed's not very informative but perhaps telling statement: "The US Government has informed Lockheed Martin that they have received a letter from the Indian MOD concerning the MMRCA competition. We understand that the US Government is working on a response to the letter from the Indian government. Lockheed Martin remains committed to our relationship with the Indian Air Force, Ministry of Defense and the other Services. Lockheed Martin has several world-class products offering the most advanced and reliable technology we believe is suitable for India's security needs."


Reports out of India today indicate that country's government has narrowed down the list of planes it is considering buying as the next next front line fighter jet and that both Lockheed Martin's F-16 and the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet have been eliminated from the competition.

If that is the case it could mean the days of the F-16 being produced in Fort Worth are nearing an end. Company officials said in their conference call Tuesday they only have orders booked to carry production through mid-2013.

The very good DewLine blog has more here. About the only thing official on the subject at this point is that Sweden's Saab has confirmed that it has been eliminated. But one blog reports it has confirmed that India has asked two bidders, France's Dassault and the European Eurofighter consortium to extend the terms of their bids.

Lockheed has not yet commented to the Star-Telegram. A Boeing spokesman said he had not heard anything official from his corporate ranks.

But Washington defense analyst Loren Thompson, who has many good sources in the world of defense contractors, said he has heard similar but unofficial reports.

"My understanding is the F-16 and F/A-18 have both been disqualified by India," Thompson said. "It may just be a negotiating tactic. They've (India) done stuff like this before."

India has for years been tantalizing fighter jet manufacturers with its plans to spend something on the order of $10 billion to buy 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft.



Sky Talk: Reports say India has dropped F-16, F/A-18 from fighter jet competition

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## axisofevil

Shouldn;t be concerned about our enemies aircraft as well. I mean in the even of war with a major player, we will first have to take out their aircraft before we can have a clear shot at taking out their ground structure. I am aware we fight two fronts, but isn;t it easier to develop A2G capabilities?


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## CONNAN




----------



## CONNAN



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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## SpArK

So nothing official from MoD as of now????


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## PoKeMon

Super Hornets are going to win MMRCA.


----------



## macho ki macho

Economic times confirms this report.

Government rules out Boeing, Lockheed for $11 billion fighter jet order: Source - The Economic Times


----------



## xataxsata

Karthic Sri said:


> Some people cant digest the MRCA selection is actually happening.
> 
> 
> 
> The Americans have their hands full with billions of dollars in Indian defence contracts already excluding this one;
> 
> 147 M777 Howitzers, about 10 (additional 6) C-17s, 6 (another optional 6) C 130Js , 8+4 P-8Is, Most possibly the 22 Apache Longbow attack helis, Chinooks transport helis etc.
> 
> This is pretty much huge for a relative new comer.


 
- 512 CBU-105 sensor-fused bombs for US $ 257.7-million

- GE F-414, 99 engines for US$ 600 million

- Harpoon Block II missiles for US $ 170 million

and there are plenty of deals in future like Javelin Missiles etc.


----------



## hembo

IND_PAK said:


> Super Hornets are going to win MMRCA.


 
Brother.. where have you been??? Both LM & Boeing are out of contention...

A quick question to the aviation experts: Why India has chosen single engine for Tejas? Kaveri would have been good enough if we had gone for a twin engine design? Any specific reason?


----------



## Whiplash

hembo said:


> Brother.. where have you been??? Both LM & Boeing are out of contention...
> 
> A quick question to the aviation experts: Why India has chosen single engine for Tejas? Kaveri would have been good enough if we had gone for a twin engine design? Any specific reason?


 
LIGHT combat aircraft. A dual engined plane falls into the medium/ heavy category


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## Markus

Rafale is winning the poll on PDF.


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## SpArK

India Shortlists Two Fighter Jets for 126-Plane Contract - WSJ.com


----------



## Jon Snow

India says no to US fighter planes - Hindustan Times
more confirmation


----------



## Speeder 2

So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?

India is finally shinning! 

Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.

 


Representing Europe, I thank you very much and would like to express my sincere gratitude to your 800 million hungry men, women and children! 

Maybe with another cool billion bucks, we would consider granting you TOT of Anti-Delhi Belly drugs or something? 




And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...


... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20. 

So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier. 


Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too! 
.


----------



## xataxsata

*The Wall Street Journal*


*India Shortlists Two Fighter Jets for 126-Plane Contract*

NEW DELHI -- India has short-listed Dassault Aviation SA and Eurofighter GmbH for an estimated $10 billion contract to supply 126 fighter jets to its air force, *a senior official in the country's defense ministry said Thursday.*

Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp., United Aircraft Corp. and Saab AB have been eliminated from the race, the official, who declined to be named, said.

"Only Dassault and Eurofighter are in the shortlist," the official said. He declined to elaborate.

France's Dassault Aviation has offered the Rafale fighter jet, while pan-European manufacturer Eurofighter has offered the Typhoon jet.

India Shortlists Two Fighter Jets for 126-Plane Contract - WSJ.com


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## SpArK

self delete.. (taken care of)


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## xataxsata

Speeder 2 said:


> So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?
> 
> India is finally shinning!
> 
> Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Representing Europe, I thank you very much and would like to express my sincere gratitude to your 800 million hungry men, women and children!
> 
> Maybe with another cool billion bucks, we would consider granting you TOT of Anti-Delhi Belly drugs something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...
> 
> 
> ... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20.
> 
> So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier.
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too! :banana:
> 
> .


 


Burn baby burn like hell. 

Your jealousy and heartburn is a proof we are on right track.

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## Varad

Speeder 2 said:


> So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?
> 
> India is finally shinning!
> 
> Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Representing Europe, I thank you very much and would like to express my sincere gratitude to your 800 million hungry men, women and children!
> 
> Maybe with another cool billion bucks, we would consider granting you TOT of Anti-Delhi Belly drugs something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...
> 
> 
> ... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20.
> 
> So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier.
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too! :banana:
> 
> .


 
LOL he is comparing EF & Rafale to J20.. We already have PAKFA for it. . ANd your post and jealousy is REPORTED.


----------



## xataxsata

*India rules out Boeing, Lockheed for $11 bln fighter jet order-source*

NEW DELHI, April 28 | Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:48am EDT

NEW DELHI, April 28 (Reuters) - *India has told Boeing and Lockheed Martinit will not consider their fighter jets for a $11 billion order and is restricting its choice to two European-made planes, a source said on Thursday.*

India was only considering France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies for one of the world's biggest defence deals, a source said, confirming a report in the Hindustan Times newspaper.

Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, along with Russia's MiG-35 and Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) JAS-39, did not meet the Indian Air Force's technical requirements and were disqualified, the paper reported

"That information is correct. The four have been disqualified," the official, who spoke on conditions of anonymity, said.

The order for 126 air and ground attack fighters has been keenly contested by global defence firms and has seen lobbying from U.S. president Barack Obama, France's Nicholas Sarkozy and Russia's Dmitry Medvedev.

India's decision on a final bidder is likely be based not only on technology and price, but also on its desire to diversify from its traditional Russian deals and expand strategic alliances with the United States and Europe.

*A New Delhi-based spokeswoman for Lockheed said it was told by U.S. authorities that Washington would respond to the Indian defence ministry's letter on the competition.*

Saab, in a statement from Sweden, said its plane was not shortlisted for the bid. A Boeing spokeswoman did not respond to requests for a comment. Other officials were not immediately available for comment.

The purchase will elevate India's air power capabilities and allow it to deploy the weaponry near the western and north-eastern frontiers to tackle any threat from Pakistan or China.

New Delhi fears Beijing is trying to strategically encircle it as the two emerging economies compete for resources globally, while Pakistan already has the F-16 fighters in its fleet. (Reporting by C.J. Kuncheria and Anurag Kotoky; editing by Matthias Williams and Lincoln Feast)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/28/india-defence-us-idUSWNAS194820110428

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## tallboy123

I guess Dassault and Eu consortium are busy having a party


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## xataxsata

*Despite Obama's push IAF reject F-16*

28 Apr 2011, 0855 hrs IST, TIMES NOW

*Barack Obama tried very hard but he's lost out on India's biggest defence deal. Despite Obama writing a letter in favour of US fighters the Indian Air Force has shortlisted France's Rafale and Eurofighter's Typhoon for the 10 billon dollar deal.*
*
Earlier this year on his visit to India Obama said, "The United States Government is offering India two of the most advanced multi mission combat aircraft in the world-the Boeing F/A-181N and the Lockheed Martin F-16IN. Let me assure you the US is a willing capable & relaible defence partner to India. High technology defence sales are increasingly a cornerstone of our strategic partnership. this typw of technology is only provided to our closest allies and partners."*

Despite Obama's offer, the US President has lost out on the 10 billion dollar deal that he was pushing for, the US fighters F16 and and F18 are out of contention in India's biggest defence deal.

*Sources have told Times Now that the Ministry of Defence has accepted the two fighters shortlisted by the Indian air force. The choice is now between the French fighter Rafale and the European consortium's Tyhoon or Eurofighter.*

This shortlisting comes after over 5 years of rigorous trials in which 6 fighters were tested including the F16 and F18, the Swedish Gripen and Russia's Mig 35. Eventually the IAF narrowed down its choice between Rafale and Eurofighter.

But that is not how Obama wanted. Earlier there reports about how Obama had written to Indian govt to nudge them to buy U.S fighters.US President Barack Obama wrote to Indian govt earlier this year to push the sale of F-16 and F-18 to the Indian Air Force.

*But with the Ministry of Defence backing the IAF's choice, Obama's sales pitch has gone in vain.*

Despite Obama's push IAF reject F-16- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

*Despite Obama's push IAF reject F-16*

28 Apr 2011, 0855 hrs IST, TIMES NOW

*Barack Obama tried very hard but he's lost out on India's biggest defence deal. Despite Obama writing a letter in favour of US fighters the Indian Air Force has shortlisted France's Rafale and Eurofighter's Typhoon for the 10 billon dollar deal.*
*
Earlier this year on his visit to India Obama said, "The United States Government is offering India two of the most advanced multi mission combat aircraft in the world-the Boeing F/A-181N and the Lockheed Martin F-16IN. Let me assure you the US is a willing capable & relaible defence partner to India. High technology defence sales are increasingly a cornerstone of our strategic partnership. this typw of technology is only provided to our closest allies and partners."*

Despite Obama's offer, the US President has lost out on the 10 billion dollar deal that he was pushing for, the US fighters F16 and and F18 are out of contention in India's biggest defence deal.

*Sources have told Times Now that the Ministry of Defence has accepted the two fighters shortlisted by the Indian air force. The choice is now between the French fighter Rafale and the European consortium's Tyhoon or Eurofighter.*

This shortlisting comes after over 5 years of rigorous trials in which 6 fighters were tested including the F16 and F18, the Swedish Gripen and Russia's Mig 35. Eventually the IAF narrowed down its choice between Rafale and Eurofighter.

But that is not how Obama wanted. Earlier there reports about how Obama had written to Indian govt to nudge them to buy U.S fighters.US President Barack Obama wrote to Indian govt earlier this year to push the sale of F-16 and F-18 to the Indian Air Force.

*But with the Ministry of Defence backing the IAF's choice, Obama's sales pitch has gone in vain.*

Despite Obama's push IAF reject F-16- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## Markus

Obama mama should be happy with the billions that they have got for C130 and C17.

Let some money go to the Europeans too.


----------



## xataxsata

Hurray.........

Though Its a diplomatic answer still *Its confirmed, guys *



> A statement from Lockheed Martin said only that it had been informed by the US government of a "letter from the Indian ministry of defence concerning the MMRCA competition".
> AFP: India shortlists Rafale, Eurofighter for jet deal


----------



## zombieland

Pfpilot said:


> Asian Union
> I feel like you are giving too much credit to the Pakistani indigenous capability, our home made fighter success is largely a result of Chinese growth in aeronautics, they provided the avionics, designed the plane and our jf-17s carry Chinese armaments. Pakistans role is ever increasing but lets not compare with the LCA, whatever it is now, the IAF doesn't have the same urgency that the PAF does. India does not have the same fear of sanctions and lack of funds...they can easily scrap the whole program and buy all their planes from the outside if they so desired.
> 
> As for the topic at hand. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are superb aircraft, cant go wrong with either. I would think the Rafale fits the role of a multi role aircraft better. Having the Eurofighter will replicate many of the strengths of the su-30mki. None the less, either way, the IAF wins. The PAF also loved the two aircraft, and if we had the money back in the day, we most probably would have gone for them.



Well said !!! ... A truly commendable, level headed post. 

Are we and our chinese brothers (inlcuding the FAKE ones here) listening ???? ... stop the troll and let Indians do whatever they want ... And if there will be a day when we have to face the IAF with EF/Rafale ... we will face them with whatever we have... so why jumping the gun now itself ... chill... have water and watch Takashi's Castle ... lol

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## SpArK




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## Markus

Cant wait till September for them to reveal the final name.

Finally Rafale or Typhoon in Indian colors full time. 

My 2000th post


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## zombieland

AsianUnion said:


> What about you, you have "NONE" as compared to our JF17s ? And Jf17 numbers by end year would be 42. There is no envy of India getting Rafale or EFs but I was rather pointing out that your Tejas and LCA have failed completed with no operational squadrons and so goes that "indigenous" Indian tag.
> 
> Secondly, Rafale jet a rejected jet with or without Tot with such price is a "BAD" decision, I would still go for Gripen - NG, F-18s or F-15 the Silent Eagle(stealth) version. EF with anyone of my mentioned planes is far deadly combination than Rafale & EF.
> 
> Anyways GOOD LUCK with your purchases.
> 
> 
> Enough Pakistani in it, to make India fell on its knees in the coming war. And we donot require to buy Rafales and EuroFighters, Su30s for that matter.


I believe this topic is revolving around EF and Rafale.

Why the hell are you bringing LCA here. If you want to post anything about LCA stuff, there is an entire section of threads where you can pour your heart out.

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## Contract Killer

Speeder 2 said:


> So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?
> 
> India is finally shinning!
> 
> Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Representing Europe, I thank you very much and would like to express my sincere gratitude to your 800 million hungry men, women and children!
> 
> Maybe with another cool billion bucks, we would consider granting you TOT of Anti-Delhi Belly drugs or something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...
> 
> 
> ... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20.
> 
> So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier.
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too!
> .


----------



## SpArK

Markus said:


> Cant wait till September for them to reveal the final name.
> 
> Finally Rafale or Typhoon in Indian colors full time.
> 
> My 2000th post


 
Hey congrats... You are also downselected for the next round of negotiations..

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## SpArK

Contract Killer said:


>


 
Dont respond to off topic .. lets keep this thread clean from them.. He was given infraction but strangely that post wasnt deleted like always.

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## Markus

SpArK said:


> Hey congrats... You are also downselected for the next round of negotiations..


 
Yeah I am going to Delhi for the final price negotiations, will keep you guys posted on the outcome.

I am asking for one free Rafale and one free Typhoon as bribery.


----------



## hembo

Markus said:


> Cant wait till September for them to reveal the final name.
> 
> Finally Rafale or Typhoon in Indian colors full time.
> 
> My 2000th post


 
Congratulation on your 2000th post!! 

 I had been here for more then tw years now, still have not reached 2000th..

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## PoKeMon

hembo said:


> Brother.. where have you been??? Both LM & Boeing are out of contention...?


 
Thats what you believe brother...
Its bargaining ploy.


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## ptltejas

There may be reason to call for all bids hence ef typhoon and rafale try to offer more chaper plane in cost. two r may raise price with colobration. its just guessing.


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## Contract Killer

IND_PAK said:


> Thats what you believe brother...
> Its bargaining ploy.


 
No Nooo...... Don't say this.......... Not again......... Keh do ki ye jhut hai....... Ufff ye Amriki...


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## SpArK

*EF, Rafale to extend MMRCA bids&#8217; validity to year-end​*
The Indian Ministry of Defense has asked the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault to extend the validity of their commercial bids for the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender till December 31, 2011.

StratPost reported the formation of an effective shortlist for the tender, on Wednesday, with the ministry issuing letters to the two aircraft companies, inviting them to extend the validity of their commercial bids.

The other contenders for the order, Boeing, pitching its F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin, with its F-16, SAAB, with its Gripen and the Russian United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), offering its MiG-35, were also sent letters informing them of the individual grounds for their failing to pass the IAF&#8217;s technical evaluation.

More later.

http://www.stratpost.com/ef-rafale-to-extend-mmrca-bids-validity-to-year-end?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stratpost+%28StratPost%29

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## SpArK

December... huh.....8 more months... 


WTF.... 

Is nt there a high speed process for all these.. a high level meet for a week or so...and finalise everything on fast track????


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## tallboy123

SpArK said:


> December... huh.....8 more months...
> 
> 
> WTF....
> 
> Is nt there a high speed process for all these.. a high level meet for a week or so...and finalise everything on fast track????


 
Coz this is INDIA


----------



## xataxsata

SpArK said:


> December... huh.....8 more months...
> 
> 
> WTF....
> 
> Is nt there a high speed process for all these.. a high level meet for a week or so...and finalise everything on fast track????


 

There is no govt. practically. As:

- Home minister chidambaram is camping in tamilnadu for elections.
- Finance minister mukharjee is camping in WB for elections. His son is contesting election first time in his life.
- Defence minister antony is camping in kerala for elections.

That's why you don't hear news of any major decisions all of the files are pending for months.

If congress wins in kerala then antony will be CM and new defense minister will be there and he will take some time understanding the functuning and he will be more prone to the poaching by lobbyist.


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## Black Widow

I was also in favor of Rafel or EFT... I will put my money on EFT..


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## Black Widow

xataxsata said:


> There is no govt. practically. As:
> 
> - Home minister chidambaram is camping in tamilnadu for elections.
> - Finance minister mukharjee is camping in WB for elections. His son is contesting election first time in his life.
> - Defence minister antony is camping in kerala for elections.
> 
> That's why you don't hear news of any major decisions all of the files are pending for months.
> 
> If congress wins in kerala then antony will be CM and new defense minister will be there and he will take some time understanding the functuning and he will be more prone to the poaching by lobbyist.


 


I hate congress from bottom of my heart, But I like this Guy "A K Antony". It will be setback to DRDO and Armed forces if he quits Def Min... New Defense minister means set-back to indigenous program...

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> December... huh.....8 more months...
> 
> 
> WTF....
> 
> Is nt there a high speed process for all these.. a high level meet for a week or so...and finalise everything on fast track????


 
Could be a safeguarding by the fact that the loosing vendors might come up with objections (like the Air Chief said), which could delay the final decision as well. If so extending the validity of the commercial bids to december sounds reasonable and doesn't neccesarily mean that the final decision could not be taken before. However, I expected it till the end of the year anyway and at the end it's India, where everything is running slower!


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## sancho

hembo said:


> A quick question to the aviation experts: Why India has chosen single engine for Tejas? Kaveri would have been good enough if we had gone for a twin engine design? Any specific reason?


 
Single engine fighters are more cost-effective then twin engine fighters and Tejas is meant to replace the lower end of IAF, which makes cost-effectivity more important. Also a light low thrust engine should be easier to develop, especially if it is your first attempt. 
Personally I would have gone for a bigger, more thrust engine, to make Tejas a medium class single engine fighter (F16 / J10 class) and use that engine later to replace Russian engines in MKI, or FGFA as well.

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## SpArK

Black Widow said:


> I was also in favor of Rafel or EFT... I will put my money on EFT..


 
*Yaa all put money in EFT.. which is also operated by Saudi and the tactics and details passsed on to them by the vendors along with the training .. 

Also by the way the same will be passed onto pilots of adversaries who has got excellent relations with their airforce..


Yup go for it..*


----------



## SpArK

xataxsata said:


> There is no govt. practically. As:
> 
> - Home minister chidambaram is camping in tamilnadu for elections.
> - Finance minister mukharjee is camping in WB for elections. His son is contesting election first time in his life.
> - Defence minister antony is camping in kerala for elections.
> 
> That's why you don't hear news of any major decisions all of the files are pending for months.
> 
> If congress wins in kerala then antony will be CM and new defense minister will be there and he will take some time understanding the functuning and he will be more prone to the poaching by lobbyist.


 
Nope Antony is not in contention for anything regarding Kerala Politics and he is not even an MLA .. Congress leader has been announced long back before elections..

Chidambaram is also back in Center..

MoD is busy sorting out a scandal on some army chiefs age...


----------



## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *Yaa all put money in EFT.. which is also operated by Saudi and the tactics and details passsed on to them by the vendors along with the training ..
> 
> Also by the way the same will be passed onto pilots of adversaries who has got excellent relations with their airforce..
> 
> 
> Yup go for it..*


 
They can get the pepper plant, but monsoon?


----------



## SpArK

rockstar said:


> They can get the pepper plant, but monsoon?


 
Pepper is enough for the dish... the plant and monsoons doesnt matter.


----------



## axisofevil

By the time India makes a deal.....China would ve supplied countermeasures to PAkistan...


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## Ammyy

axisofevil said:


> By the time India makes a deal.....China would ve supplied countermeasures to PAkistan...


 
Buddy even China dnt have any thing like EF or Rafele in their inventory

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## sancho

*First "indirect" reaction on the Eurofighter website:*



> *News - Eurofighter, Rafale asked to extend bids*
> 
> Thursday, 28. April 2011
> 
> The Hindu, India - NEW DELHI: The Ministry of Defence on Wednesday asked European consortium's Eurofighter and French Dassault's Rafale to extend the commercial bids for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft that are due to expire on Thursday.
> 
> 
> The move could be interpreted as &#8216;down selection' from six competitors in the Rs. 45,000- crore deal that is expected to be finalised this fiscal.
> 
> Sources in the government told The Hindu that the Ministry despatched the letter, based on the Technical Evaluation Committee's report.
> 
> The commercial bids, which were re-submitted last year by the competitors, need to be extended. Once the bids are opened, the cost negotiation committee would start work.
> 
> Offset clause
> 
> The calculation would also have to factor in the steep offset clause as determined by the Defence Procurement Policy.
> 
> As per the terms of the deal, the competitors would have to show that they have the requisite tie-ups to fulfil the 50-per cent offset clause, which means that half of the value of the deal would have be sourced from Indian companies.
> 
> The Indian Air Force had handed over its report to the Ministry last year after rigorous and
> extensive flight evaluation trials of the six fighter planes bidding for the deal.
> 
> Besides Eurofighter and Rafale, the others in the race are American companies Lockheed Martin (F-16IN Super Viper) and Boeing (F/A-18 Super Hornet), Swedish SAAB Gripen NG and Russian Mikoyan MiG35.
> 
> The sources said the Ministry's team undertook an elaborate exercise to determine the offset obligations of the competitors, and once the task was complete, the next stage would be determined on the basis of the technical evaluation.




Eurofighter: News Detail


----------



## axisofevil

Ak Anthony is the only reason why our defense situation has turned around for the better. Sue the process takes longer but what he is doing is turning around decades of corruption that has been institutionalized in defense procurement.


----------



## SQ8

Still not clear on the news..
Does this imply ONLY the rafale and EF make it on the shortlist?
OR
The Rafale and EF are the first ones on the shortlist?

In any case..
it will be the EF.. it has political, logistical.. and other advantages..


----------



## KS

Santro said:


> Still not clear on the news..
> *Does this imply ONLY the rafale and EF make it on the shortlist?*
> OR
> The Rafale and EF are the first ones on the shortlist?



The bolded part is true.

And the news is confirmed - Official release from SAAB website - Link



Santro said:


> In any case..
> it will be the EF.. it has political, logistical.. and other advantages..



Logistical - Rafale enjoys a huge adv over EF in that the IAF already operates the Mirage 2000 which share commonality with the Rafale.
Any more support to EF - you will be perma banned


----------



## SpArK

*EF just got a new job ​*





_Flying in a box formation (above), the strike aircraft will be flown over Buckingham Palace at 13:30 local time on 29 April, "weather permitting". Both types are currently involved in combat action over Libya as part of NATO's Operation Unified Protector, with Tornado GR4s also deployed in Afghanistan
_​

PICTURE: RAF jets rehearse for Royal Wedding flypast


----------



## jdme

EF sounds trouble. Too many countries involved, especially UK. Any future trouble and we will regret ever buying this. French are far more reliable.


----------



## sancho

Santro said:


> Still not clear on the news..
> Does this imply ONLY the rafale and EF make it on the shortlist?
> OR
> The Rafale and EF are the first ones on the shortlist?
> 
> In any case..
> it will be the EF.. it has political, logistical.. and other advantages..


 
Seems like only, because Saab already stated that they are out, just like US media reports saying that their fighters are out as well. No statement about the Mig, but its chances were low anyway.
The EF has some advantages, but as a fighter more disadvantages for Indian forces, like similarity to MKI/FGFA roles, very limited A2G capabilities, delays in development and integration, funding problems, not a good option for SFC and IN. These points will play a big role for IAF, but for MoD as well. However, lets see how desperate the EF partners really are!


----------



## Ammyy

Eurofighter Typhoon 41 42.71%

Dassault Rafale 55 57.29%


looks like EF fans are on vacation


----------



## baker

may be after some day.. MOD will come with updated list that includes uncles fighter........ who knows.... what will happen....


----------



## Ammyy

baker said:


> may be after some day.. MOD will come with updated list that includes uncles fighter........ who knows.... what will happen....


 
not possible now . They are still facing lots of corruption charges 

Dnt you know about "7 scam maaf" starring Sonia Gandhi

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## SR 71 Blackbird

RAFALE:
R-Rocking
A-Admirable
F-Fabulous
A-Adorable(Not for enemies though!)
L-Luster
E-Eternity.


----------



## jdme

By the way, DRDO will "assemble" most of the planes. Might as well not buy these planes.


----------



## Markus

jdme said:


> By the way, DRDO will "assemble" most of the planes. Might as well not buy these planes.


 
HAL will assemble.


----------



## blackops

Markus said:


> HAL will assemble.


 
it would be better if they make half and other half is made by the respected companies so the process of induction can be fast


----------



## jdme

Markus said:


> HAL will assemble.


 

Not much different. We need a major change in our defense set up. I cannot believe we trust any government run company with our security. 

P.S: Is HAL going to do the maintenance work too?


----------



## jdme

To read about Indian military, I actually go to Pakistani defense section.

Or this:
IAF news and views

I know they hate us but their points are valid. I doubt any civilian has absolutely any clue about true potential of our armed forces and if one just go by the "releases" or what goes on BR, we might as well be Martians invading earth. And then we box ourselves with "Pakistan this Pakistan that" thinking. I fear we are in for rude awakening if we are actually tested.


----------



## Urbanized Greyhound

so Rafale is the "people's choice "


----------



## ptltejas

sancho said:


> *First "indirect" reaction on the Eurofighter website:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter: News Detail


 
Therefore bid was asked from all six competetors so they do not form cartel as per economic term. mod is intelligent. reaction is clear price hike which yet not disclosed, and possible cartelling between ef &rafael. the more time is also taken for the same purpose, more u eager buisness man get more price from u. not showing much interest in product down the price. plz observe the same.


----------



## jdme

^^So our government will obviously pick EF. 2 years from now, we will have 4 planes and then constant delays after that. HAL will build one every year citing various "delays" in production, none of which is because of them. 6 years from now, one EF will drop from air and they will blame Europeans for supplying poor parts. And we be constantly plagued by maintenance problem.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Will HAL only start making the winner AFTER the first SQD is inducted into IAF from winning vendor (as RFI stipulates) which could be 2014/5 at this rate OR do they start production in tandem with winning bidder as obviously it will take more time for them to come up to scratch initially so the IAF receives 2 SQD around the same time?


----------



## Kinetic

You decide.... 

*
Rafale*










*Eurofighter Typhoon*

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## SpArK

> On 17th March 1998 an agreement was concluded between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Dassault Aviation authorizing HAL to offer its Mirage 2000 major inspection facilities to global customers.
> 
> Currently, it is the only organization authorized to undertake major inspection of Mirage 2000 Aircraft outside France for global customers.
> 
> The management of these maintenance activities is through sophisticated computer systems with extensive interaction between the user and the maintenance agency through the electronic medium.
> 
> The Mirage 2000 major inspection line is equipped with modern ground support, ground handling equipment and testers conforming to the specifications of M/s Dassault Aviation. The line is supported by a host of highly skilled technicians and qualified Engineers, trained at M/s Dassault Aviation as well as at other original equipment manufacturers of the various systems.
> 
> Logistics management include computer based vertical storage system for kit marshal stores and mobile storage system for spares. Environmental control for LRU storage has been incorporated to meet the advanced technology requirements.
> 
> The Overhaul Division is the approved repair agency for carrying out major servicing of Jaguar Aircraft and its accessories. All the three versions namely Strike, Trainer and Maritime undergo major servicing at the Overhaul Division.
> 
> The Division also undertakes the compliance of the Company Special Technical Instruction (CSTI), Company Service Instruction (CSI) developed by HAL and compliance of modifications as per Standard Of Preparation (SOP).



http://www.hal-/Overhaul/services.asp

I think this facility will be upgraded.


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## Abingdonboy

jdme said:


> ^^So our government will obviously pick EF. 2 years from now, we will have 4 planes and then constant delays after that. HAL will build one every year citing various "delays" in production, none of which is because of them. 6 years from now, one EF will drop from air and they will blame Europeans for supplying poor parts. And we be constantly plagued by maintenance problem.


 WTF are you getting this from? Yes this problem plagued Russian a/c in IAF service but that was because at the time USSR was India's only option. Now the world (and winning bidder) is aware that India will take nothing but the best and if that doesn't happen I'm sure there will be safeguards in the contracts accordingly. Anyway if EFT wins they have already said that they will set up a full production line in India and so spares shouldn't be a proboblem as they will be made in India by Indians for Indain Air Force.

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## JayAtl

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> RAFALE:
> R-Rocking
> A-Admirable
> F-Fabulous
> A-Adorable(Not for enemies though!)
> L-Luster
> E-Eternity.


 
G
A
Y


----------



## Abingdonboy

blackops said:


> it would be better if they make half and other half is made by the respected companies so the process of induction can be fast


 


Kinetic said:


> You decide....
> 
> *
> Rafale*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Eurofighter Typhoon*


 I have to say it is a very hard choice. Now that it is only Europe involved (so geopolitics is out the window) I hope that the MoD listens to IAF experts who know WTF they're talking about. If this is what happens then I have no doubt the plane that enters IAF service will be the one that best suites the IAF's needs and tactics.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## SpArK

@ Kinetic .. Already decided..


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## SR 71 Blackbird

JayAtl said:


> G
> A
> Y



Yes I am Gay to Rafale but not any one else.


----------



## jdme

Abingdonboy said:


> WTF are you getting this from? Yes this problem plagued Russian a/c in IAF service but that was because at the time USSR was India's only option. Now the world (and winning bidder) is aware that India will take nothing but the best and if that doesn't happen I'm sure there will be safeguards in the contracts accordingly. Anyway if EFT wins they have already said that they will set up a full production line in India and so spares shouldn't be a proboblem as they will be made in India by Indians for Indain Air Force.



You are assuming that European consortium is not only going to supply their production line, they are going to send their own workers to run it too. And maintenance crew too. Whatever we buy, it will ultimately be assembled and maintained by Indian defense setup. Just like DRDO, you are just blaming Russians for everything. DRDO and ilks here are the problem since they are totally inept at their job. You just wait and watch.


----------



## SpArK

JayAtl said:


> G
> A
> Y


 
Stay away from Rafale fans Mr *JAY*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## justanobserver

jdme said:


> You are assuming that European consortium is not only going to supply their production line, they are going to send their own workers to run it too. And maintenance crew too. Whatever we buy, it will ultimately be assembled and maintained by Indian defense setup. Just like *DRDO*, you are just blaming Russians for everything.* DRDO *and ilks here are the problem since they are totally inept at their job. You just wait and watch.



DRDO=/=HAL


----------



## T90TankGuy

i belive it will be the EF not the rafale.


----------



## Abingdonboy

jdme said:


> You are assuming that European consortium is not only going to supply their production line, they are going to send their own workers to run it too. And maintenance crew too. Whatever we buy, it will ultimately be assembled and maintained by Indian defense setup. Just like DRDO, you are just blaming Russians for everything. DRDO and ilks here are the problem since they are totally inept at their job. You just wait and watch.


 
Actually in recent years the Indian defence industry has had BILLIONS invested in it and with MILLIONS of engineering students graduating each year India's defence industry is improving year on year (qualtity and quantity) yes there are still some major challenges but India will get there. And just look- the Mirage 2000H inducted in the 1980s, engineers in India given PROPER training by French and good supply of spares and I have not heard of a SINGLE incident of major safety mishap for these birds. The year is 2011 the world is a very different from 1980-90s, India is very different.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Kinetic

jdme said:


> By the way, DRDO will "assemble" most of the planes. Might as well not buy these planes.


 
I am watching your posts and you do not know what you are talking about. So why make fun?


----------



## Kinetic

SpArK said:


> @ Kinetic .. Already decided..


 
bro, i am here, than who decided without my authority?


----------



## blackops

will it be this 




*OR*
this


----------



## SpArK

*EF's canards looks like a funny mustache 
*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Contract Killer

Abingdonboy said:


> I have to say it is a very hard choice. Now that it is only Europe involved (so geopolitics is out the window) I hope that the MoD listens to IAF experts who know WTF they're talking about. If this is what happens then I have no doubt the plane that enters IAF service will be the one that best suites the IAF's needs and tactics.


 
I accept............... Rafale kills in look.


----------



## blackops

why will drdo manufacture hal is the one who will be manufacturing it


----------



## Ammyy



Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## jdme

What criteria does defense dept use while buying any plane? Anyone knows?


----------



## Abingdonboy

jdme said:


> What criteria does defense dept use while buying any plane? Anyone knows?


 
In this case a set of critera were drawn up by the IAF/MoD and sent out to possible candidates for their response, then trails were held (weapons and technical) those who met the drawn up criteria progressed through to next stage (costing, contractual negoitians). This is how it should have been done anyway. 


This process applies purely for the MMRCA in terms of jets, (LUH, HLH, AH have also followed similar processes) 


However in the past (MKI, Jaguar, Mig 29 etc) India had a much narrower set of friends willing to supply them and was much more limited on finances so it was done on what they needed and could afford from their friends.


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

Well there are so many:
Tech transfer
A2A capability
A2G capability
To check capability to fly in extreme weather & high altitude
Maintenance costs


----------



## KS

Contract Killer said:


> I accept............... Rafale kills in look.


 
When it comes to looks it is the Russkie planes that win hands down - MKI and Mig 29 over Rafale or EFT anyday.



jdme said:


> IAF news and views


 
Seriously ?

You mean posts like these merit a discussion ?



> I am happy that Indians like 2 engined aircrafts. More maintenance issues specially when maintenance will be done by the Indians. Looks like Indians think in the same way as some idiots think that the most expensive means the best which Rafale and Typhoon are definitely not. Indians planners are the best assets Pakistan has and should be thankful to.
> 
> it will be fun to see how the loosers react and if it could help Pakistan in some way.



Any fool can say that Rafale and EFT are the two best among the six and all the nations - US,UK,Russia,China,France are fools to go for two engines and only Pak is the intelligent nation out there.


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

Only problem with Rafale is it has lower TWR than EF.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## koushik

Abingdonboy said:


> Will HAL only start making the winner AFTER the first SQD is inducted into IAF from winning vendor (as RFI stipulates) which could be 2014/5 at this rate OR do they start production in tandem with winning bidder as obviously it will take more time for them to come up to scratch initially so the IAF receives 2 SQD around the same time?


 
ON announcing the winner for this MMRCA Competition. the first squadron of the winning aircraft would be bought directly off the shelf from the manufacturer.After that the manufacturer will issue a license to HAL to manufacture the remaining birds.It could take 2017-18 to complete the entire manufacture of the aircrafts.


----------



## Abingdonboy

koushik said:


> ON announcing the winner for this MMRCA Competition. the first squadron of the winning aircraft would be bought directly off the shelf from the manufacturer.After that the manufacturer will issue a license to HAL to manufacture the remaining birds.It could take 2017-18 to complete the entire manufacture of the aircrafts.


 
Well, if true, that's completely pointless, HAL should start producing simultaneously as original manufacture tonspeed up induction in larger numbers. and 2017-8 for ENTIRE induction of ALL MMRCA? I think that's a long shot and unlikely. 


Has there been any news on the NUMBER IAF will induct? There have been wild estimates (126-*260*!) if MMRCA goes to 260 and EFT is the winner then that could be *$20 BILLION!!!* Any idea??


----------



## Kinetic

jdme said:


> To read about Indian military, I actually go to Pakistani defense section.
> 
> Or this:
> IAF news and views


 
 There are so many jokes there. Laughed at them.




> I know they hate us but their points are valid. I doubt any civilian has absolutely any clue about true potential of our armed forces and if one just go by the "releases" or what goes on BR, we might as well be Martians invading earth. And then we box ourselves with "Pakistan this Pakistan that" thinking. I fear we are in for rude awakening if we are actually tested.



Which of these funny points looked 'valid' to you?


----------



## justanobserver

Karthic Sri said:


> Any fool can say that Rafale and EFT are the two best among the six and all the nations - US,UK,Russia,China,France are fools to go for two engines and only Pak is the intelligent nation out there.


 
I saw the post, the guy (on the other forum) is seriously delusional ! He thinks DRDO does assembly/manufacturing


----------



## Abingdonboy

Abingdonboy said:


> Well, if true, that's completely pointless, HAL should start producing simultaneously as original manufacture tonspeed up induction in larger numbers. and 2017-8 for ENTIRE induction of ALL MMRCA? I think that's a long shot and unlikely.
> 
> 
> Has there been any news on the NUMBER IAF will induct? There have been wild estimates (126-*260*!) if MMRCA goes to 260 and EFT is the winner then that could be *$20 BILLION!!!* Any idea??


 
Sorry that figure is in &#8364; in US $ it is actually *$29 BILLION!!!*


----------



## jdme

Kinetic said:


> There are so many jokes there. Laughed at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which of these funny points looked 'valid' to you?


 

For start we are buying twin engine planes (some obsession of ours). That means higher maintenance, isn't it?


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

koushik said:


> ON announcing the winner for this MMRCA Competition. the first squadron of the winning aircraft would be bought directly off the shelf from the manufacturer.After that the manufacturer will issue a license to HAL to manufacture the remaining birds.It could take 2017-18 to complete the entire manufacture of the aircrafts.


 It will definitely extend till 2020-2022.


----------



## jdme

So who is going train Indian pilots ? How does that work out?


----------



## jdme

justanobserver said:


> I saw the post, the guy (on the other forum) is seriously delusional ! He thinks DRDO does assembly/manufacturing


 
ahem....Renowned HAL assembler..Whatever...


----------



## jdme

Karthic Sri said:


> Any fool can say that Rafale and EFT are the two best among the six and all the nations - US,UK,Russia,China,France are fools to go for two engines and only Pak is the intelligent nation out there.


 

So what are these twin engine planes US/UK/Russia are going for? I guess the difference is that these countries actually build their own planes. Perhaps that was the point. But you guys are the expert.


----------



## justanobserver

jdme said:


> ahem....Renowned HAL assembler..Whatever...


 
HAL has a pretty good track record. Dhruv is a sucess, the LCH is also on time


----------



## sancho

Although Spark is promoting the Rafale for both of us and I'm still waiting for an official statement, I want to add at least some pics as well. 





















*Rafale compilation*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-91.html#post682636

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-91.html#post682646

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-91.html#post682658

Reactions: Like Like:
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## koushik

SOME USEFUL INFO ABOUT THE TYPHOON'S AVIONICS:- 


EMCON:
The DASS features an emission controll function to reduce active RF emissions. The system has the full authority to control all RF emissions. Signature profiles can be saved in the missions computer.


Typhoon's avionics are built to the federated concept, with each system using its own computers to perform various processes. More than 80 computers in 5 families flying aboard the aircraft, many of them are there for redundancy reasons. All the avionics are divided into 7 sub-systems which are linked to each other by 5 MIL STD 1553B and 2 STANAG-3910 databusses. 

Subsystems include:
- cockpit instrumentation & control elements
- attack, identification and navigation
- DASS
- Communication
- IFF
- Utility Control System
- Armament controls system 

Additional subsystem bus systems include a MIL STD 1760 weapon interface bus and the flight control system bus.

Specific Systems:

UCS:
Utility Control System to control the different utilities. The UCS consists of 6 computers which are linked via a MIL STD 1553B databus to the other avionics. The six computers include:
- 2x fuel computers
- 2x SPS computers
- landing gear computer
- front computer+maintainance display panel (on the left airliftintake)

IMRS:
The integrated monitoring and recording system features audio- and video recorders as well as the digital flight data recorder. It includes a fully integrated and automated seft-diagnostic system ensuring automatic fault detection and indication in the case of a critical systems failure. 

HMS:
The health monitoring system uses 20 sensors to monitor the airframe and engine status. Data are collected ever 1/16 second. The HMS enables on condition maintainance and increases flight safety.

Communication:
Typhoon's communication systems are integrated into the CAMU (cockpit audio management unit) which comprises warning sound genration, direct voice input and direct voice output. There are 2 sets of XT622P1 VHF/UHF radios developed by Rohde & Schwarz, BAE Systems, ELMER and ENOSA. The UHF radios are built to the SATURN standard (Second generation ANTI-jam Tactical UHF RADIO for NATO) ensuring a secured and jamming resistant over crypted channels. 

Navigation:
The comprehensive navigation suite enables autonomous, day/night and allweather operations. Single systems include:
- Litton LN-93EF laser inertial navigation system
- GPS receiver
- Smith Industries radar altimeter 
- Instrument-/Microwave landing systems (ILS/MLS)
- TACAN and DME-P
- digital map generator (DMG)
- BAE Systems TERPROM II (Terrain Profile Matching)

Autopilot:
The autopilot offers a number of modes and is able to catch and hold speed, altitude and heading. In some modes the autopilot offers automatic terrain following. Specific modes include:
- Tracking
- Heading
- Auto Throttle
- Climb
- Altitude stabilization
- Attack
- Approach

The system can also fly CAPs and offers flight director modes for airborne interceptions.

DASS:
The Defensive Aids Sub System consists of abput 20 LRUs and is fully integrated within the airframe. It ensures threat detection, identification and priorization at long ranges and automatically activates the best suited counter measures. Single components include:
DAC: Defensive Aids Computer consisting of 5 Radstone Technologies PowerPC processors to control the entire DASS
ESM: Using superheterodyne digital receiver antennas in the wingtip pods. Electronics support messures ensure:
- 360° RF emitter detection up to 100 km+
- Frequency coverage 100 MHz to 10 GHz+
- direction finding with an accuracy better than 1° 
- ranging via sequential triangulation and amplitute measurement
- Emitter type identification and differentiation between operating modes like search, acquisition or missile guidance
- IFF
- threat priorization
- Lethal zone indication taking into account terrain profiles
LWR: 6 Selex Sensors & Airborne Systems laser warning sensor for detection and direction finding of laser range-finding and targeting systems, with full spherical azimuth coverage. 3 pairs of sensors in the forward and rear fuselage. (RAF only, EdA maybe)
MAW: 3 active missile approach warners based on pulse doppler mm wave radars. 2 in the wing roots and 1 at the base of the fin. Ensure missile detection and tracking up to 100 km with full azimuth coverage. Threat priorization and linked to the flare dispensers. The DASS suggests evasive manoeuvres using HuD symbols.
ECM: Fully integrated and automated electronic counter measures system with same spherical and frequency coverage as ESM. Using DRFM, a technics generator and PESA. The system can jam multiple threats simultanously.
X-Eye: Jamming technic requiring a second rearward looking antenna. Offered as option and might be used by italian aircraft
TRD: Up to 2 BAE Systems Ariel towed radar decoys on a 100 m cevlar cable. Effective against monopulse, TWS and command-line-of-sight radars. Twice as effective as the internal ECM
Decoys: 2xSpA Elettronica flare dispensers with 16 rounds each in the inner trailing edge flaperon actuators and 2xSaab BOL 510 chaff dispensers with 160 packages each in the outboard missile launch rails. Automatically deployed by the DAC, AIS or MAW.



CAESAR AESA RADAR:

The AMSAR /Airborne Multi-Mode Solid-State Active-Array Radar) programme was started back in 1993 by the government founded GTDAR consortium with the aim to research and develope the AESA fighter radar technology. In 2003 german and british industry started the CECAR as a strand of AMSAR to develope a Captor specific AESA. The industry founded CAESAR (Captor AESA Radar) demonstrator developed by the EuroRadar consortium was fully integrated and tested on the ground before it made its first flight aboard a BAC-1-11 on 24th February 2006. The current modell is close to a production modell and will be available ~2010 as a retrofit to the Captor-D or as a new radar for Tranche 3 aircraft. The AESA antenna consists of 1500 T/R-modules with an output of 10 W each. 

BVR AA-modes: 
- RWS (Range While Scan) 
- TWS (Track While Scan) 
- VS (Velocity Search) 

CAC AA-modes: 
- Boresight Acquisition 
- Vertical Acquisition 
- Slaved Acquisition 
- HUD Acquisition. 

AA-submodes:
- STT (Single Target Track)

AG-modes: 
- Sea 
- DBS/SAR (Doppler Beam Sharpening/Synthetic Aperature Radar) 
- GMTI/T (Ground Moving Target Indication/Track) 
- AG-Ranging 
- PVU (Precision Velocity Update) 
- TA (Terrain Avoidance). 
- FTT (Fixed Target Track) 

The radar also provides look up/down and shoot up/down capabilities, raid assessment and a non cooporative target recognition (NCTR) function. 
It is also able to create a 3-D picture from the airspace which provides the pilot a better overview about the situation into the airspace. It features an automatic IFF system, an integrated fighter-missile datalink and automatically prioritizes all threats in TWS mode.


PIRATE:
The PIRATE (Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipement) is a 3rd generation dual-band infrared sensor with image processing capabilities.

Design:
- Image processing speed is 24 mln pixel/second
- azimuth coverage up to +/-75°
- wavelength 3-5 and 8-11 micron

Roles:
The PIRATE acts as IRST and FLIR. Modes include:
- Multiple Target Track
- Single Target Track
- Single Target Track Identification
- Sector Acquisition
- Slaved Acquision
- kinematically raning
- Thermal cueing for ground targets
- FLIR image generation with output on HuD, HMD and/or MHDD

MIDS:
The MIDS datalink (Multifunction Information Distribution System) is LINK-16 compatible and offers secured bi-directional communication and dataexchange. Functions include:
- Transmission of sensor pictures and target data
- position data exchange
- secured voice communication
- text messaging

AIS:
The Attack & Identification System consists of two identical computers, designated AC and NC. The system fuses navigation and sensor data, increasing data reliability and overall sensor capabilities, while enhancing the pilots situational awerness and reducing workload.

EMCON:
The DASS features an emission controll function to reduce active RF emissions. The system has the full authority to control all RF emissions. Signature profiles can be saved in the missions computer.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## SpArK

jdme said:


> So who is going train Indian pilots ? How does that work out?


 
If its Eurofighter the training will be probably in Morón de la Frontera airbase in Sevilla , SPAIN 






or Sqn Operational Conversion Unit at Coningsby in Lincolnshire ,UK..

Subsequent training will be in India.

Rafale will use the same facility which trained our mirage pilots.


----------



## jdme

justanobserver said:


> HAL has a pretty good track record. Dhruv is a sucess, the LCH is also on time


 
By success, you mean it's actually flying and not still going through "testing" process like LCA?I am not going to ask how "good" it is. So HAL is one notch above DRDO, if that amounts to anything.


----------



## Kirandbl

great news !!!!!


----------



## Kinetic

jdme said:


> For start we are buying twin engine planes (some obsession of ours). That means higher maintenance, isn't it?




If twin engine aircrafts only mean higher maintenance than all those developed F-22, PAK FA, Typhoon, Rafale, F-18, MKI are fools and you have got them. That is a totally ridiculous and funny idea. Its not strange that those stupids made such point but there is no point in arguing over that. Twin engine aircrafts have many advantages mainly two, like if an engine got problem still the fighter can fly, higher payloads, higher maneuverability.


----------



## KS

jdme said:


> So what are these twin engine planes US/UK/Russia are going for? I guess the difference is that these countries actually build their own planes. Perhaps that was the point. But you guys are the expert.


 
Raptors, Silent Eagles, Strike Eagles for US

Su35 BM, PAKFA -Russia

UK -Typhoon

J-20,J-11 - China.

And aside from the advantages Kinetic mentioned - you have more survivability. One engine damaged in a MKI means you can RTB on another, in the case of Falcon - you cannot. The fighter is lost.

The sore losers over there are nothing but a case of "Sour Grapes". The want the EFT or Rafale to fly in PAF colors in their deep heart but considering the inability to do so indulge in all these canards to live in delusion.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## justanobserver

jdme said:


> By success, you mean it's actually flying and not still going through "testing" process like LCA?I am not going to ask how "good" it is. So HAL is one *notch* above *DRDO*, if that amounts to anything.


 

HAL is not in the same business as DRDO. *They are different agencies, different work, cannot be compared*. 

HAL does *manufacturing* primarily, and they've done a pretty good job in that (*manufacturing*)


----------



## koushik

*SOME INFO ABOUT THE TYPHOON'S AVIONICS:-*



phoon's avionics are built to the federated concept, with each system using its own computers to perform various processes. More than 80 computers in 5 families flying aboard the aircraft, many of them are there for redundancy reasons. All the avionics are divided into 7 sub-systems which are linked to each other by 5 MIL STD 1553B and 2 STANAG-3910 databusses. 

Subsystems include:
- cockpit instrumentation & control elements
- attack, identification and navigation
- DASS
- Communication
- IFF
- Utility Control System
- Armament controls system 

Additional subsystem bus systems include a MIL STD 1760 weapon interface bus and the flight control system bus.

Specific Systems:

UCS:
Utility Control System to control the different utilities. The UCS consists of 6 computers which are linked via a MIL STD 1553B databus to the other avionics. The six computers include:
- 2x fuel computers
- 2x SPS computers
- landing gear computer
- front computer+maintainance display panel (on the left airliftintake)

IMRS:
The integrated monitoring and recording system features audio- and video recorders as well as the digital flight data recorder. It includes a fully integrated and automated seft-diagnostic system ensuring automatic fault detection and indication in the case of a critical systems failure. 

HMS:
The health monitoring system uses 20 sensors to monitor the airframe and engine status. Data are collected ever 1/16 second. The HMS enables on condition maintainance and increases flight safety.

Communication:
Typhoon's communication systems are integrated into the CAMU (cockpit audio management unit) which comprises warning sound genration, direct voice input and direct voice output. There are 2 sets of XT622P1 VHF/UHF radios developed by Rohde & Schwarz, BAE Systems, ELMER and ENOSA. The UHF radios are built to the SATURN standard (Second generation ANTI-jam Tactical UHF RADIO for NATO) ensuring a secured and jamming resistant over crypted channels. 

Navigation:
The comprehensive navigation suite enables autonomous, day/night and allweather operations. Single systems include:
- Litton LN-93EF laser inertial navigation system
- GPS receiver
- Smith Industries radar altimeter 
- Instrument-/Microwave landing systems (ILS/MLS)
- TACAN and DME-P
- digital map generator (DMG)
- BAE Systems TERPROM II (Terrain Profile Matching)

Autopilot:
The autopilot offers a number of modes and is able to catch and hold speed, altitude and heading. In some modes the autopilot offers automatic terrain following. Specific modes include:
- Tracking
- Heading
- Auto Throttle
- Climb
- Altitude stabilization
- Attack
- Approach

The system can also fly CAPs and offers flight director modes for airborne interceptions.

DASS:
The Defensive Aids Sub System consists of abput 20 LRUs and is fully integrated within the airframe. It ensures threat detection, identification and priorization at long ranges and automatically activates the best suited counter measures. Single components include:
DAC: Defensive Aids Computer consisting of 5 Radstone Technologies PowerPC processors to control the entire DASS
ESM: Using superheterodyne digital receiver antennas in the wingtip pods. Electronics support messures ensure:
- 360° RF emitter detection up to 100 km+
- Frequency coverage 100 MHz to 10 GHz+
- direction finding with an accuracy better than 1° 
- ranging via sequential triangulation and amplitute measurement
- Emitter type identification and differentiation between operating modes like search, acquisition or missile guidance
- IFF
- threat priorization
- Lethal zone indication taking into account terrain profiles
LWR: 6 Selex Sensors & Airborne Systems laser warning sensor for detection and direction finding of laser range-finding and targeting systems, with full spherical azimuth coverage. 3 pairs of sensors in the forward and rear fuselage. (RAF only, EdA maybe)
MAW: 3 active missile approach warners based on pulse doppler mm wave radars. 2 in the wing roots and 1 at the base of the fin. Ensure missile detection and tracking up to 100 km with full azimuth coverage. Threat priorization and linked to the flare dispensers. The DASS suggests evasive manoeuvres using HuD symbols.
ECM: Fully integrated and automated electronic counter measures system with same spherical and frequency coverage as ESM. Using DRFM, a technics generator and PESA. The system can jam multiple threats simultanously.
X-Eye: Jamming technic requiring a second rearward looking antenna. Offered as option and might be used by italian aircraft
TRD: Up to 2 BAE Systems Ariel towed radar decoys on a 100 m cevlar cable. Effective against monopulse, TWS and command-line-of-sight radars. Twice as effective as the internal ECM
Decoys: 2xSpA Elettronica flare dispensers with 16 rounds each in the inner trailing edge flaperon actuators and 2xSaab BOL 510 chaff dispensers with 160 packages each in the outboard missile launch rails. Automatically deployed by the DAC, AIS or MAW.


CAESAR AESA RADAR

he AMSAR /Airborne Multi-Mode Solid-State Active-Array Radar) programme was started back in 1993 by the government founded GTDAR consortium with the aim to research and develope the AESA fighter radar technology. In 2003 german and british industry started the CECAR as a strand of AMSAR to develope a Captor specific AESA. The industry founded CAESAR (Captor AESA Radar) demonstrator developed by the EuroRadar consortium was fully integrated and tested on the ground before it made its first flight aboard a BAC-1-11 on 24th February 2006. The current modell is close to a production modell and will be available ~2010 as a retrofit to the Captor-D or as a new radar for Tranche 3 aircraft. The AESA antenna consists of 1500 T/R-modules with an output of 10 W each.

VR AA-modes: 
- RWS (Range While Scan) 
- TWS (Track While Scan) 
- VS (Velocity Search) 

CAC AA-modes: 
- Boresight Acquisition 
- Vertical Acquisition 
- Slaved Acquisition 
- HUD Acquisition. 

AA-submodes:
- STT (Single Target Track)

AG-modes: 
- Sea 
- DBS/SAR (Doppler Beam Sharpening/Synthetic Aperature Radar) 
- GMTI/T (Ground Moving Target Indication/Track) 
- AG-Ranging 
- PVU (Precision Velocity Update) 
- TA (Terrain Avoidance). 
- FTT (Fixed Target Track) 

The radar also provides look up/down and shoot up/down capabilities, raid assessment and a non cooporative target recognition (NCTR) function. 
It is also able to create a 3-D picture from the airspace which provides the pilot a better overview about the situation into the airspace. It features an automatic IFF system, an integrated fighter-missile datalink and automatically prioritizes all threats in TWS mode.


PIRATE:
The PIRATE (Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipement) is a 3rd generation dual-band infrared sensor with image processing capabilities.

Design:
- Image processing speed is 24 mln pixel/second
- azimuth coverage up to +/-75°
- wavelength 3-5 and 8-11 micron

Roles:
The PIRATE acts as IRST and FLIR. Modes include:
- Multiple Target Track
- Single Target Track
- Single Target Track Identification
- Sector Acquisition
- Slaved Acquision
- kinematically raning
- Thermal cueing for ground targets
- FLIR image generation with output on HuD, HMD and/or MHDD

MIDS:
The MIDS datalink (Multifunction Information Distribution System) is LINK-16 compatible and offers secured bi-directional communication and dataexchange. Functions include:
- Transmission of sensor pictures and target data
- position data exchange
- secured voice communication
- text messaging

AIS:
The Attack & Identification System consists of two identical computers, designated AC and NC. The system fuses navigation and sensor data, increasing data reliability and overall sensor capabilities, while enhancing the pilots situational awerness and reducing workload.

EMCON:
The DASS features an emission controll function to reduce active RF emissions. The system has the full authority to control all RF emissions. Signature profiles can be saved in the missions computer.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kinetic

jdme said:


> ahem....Renowned HAL assembler..Whatever...


The same renowned HAL which makes 28 MKI per year. 



jdme said:


> So who is going train Indian pilots ? How does that work out?



Do not you know who will train?


----------



## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> Raptors, Silent Eagles, Strike Eagles for US
> 
> Su35 BM, PAKFA -Russia
> 
> UK -Typhoon
> 
> J-20,J-11 - China.
> 
> And aside from the advantages Kinetic mentioned - you have more survivability. One engine damaged in a MKI means you can RTB on another, in the case of Falcon - you cannot. The fighter is lost.


 
You could add Su 34 and Mig 29Ks for Russia and J15 for China as well


----------



## IndianTiger

justanobserver said:


> HAL is not in the same business as DRDO. *They are different agencies, different work, cannot be compared*.
> 
> HAL does *manufacturing* primarily, and they've done a pretty good job in that (*manufacturing*)


 
you are telling to those who dnt have skills but having big mouth, btw nice answer..


----------



## Jon Snow

Abingdonboy said:


> WTF are you getting this from? Yes this problem plagued Russian a/c in IAF service but that was because at the time USSR was India's only option. Now the world (and winning bidder) is aware that India will take nothing but the best and if that doesn't happen I'm sure there will be safeguards in the contracts accordingly. Anyway if EFT wins they have already said that they will set up a full production line in India and so spares shouldn't be a proboblem as they will be made in India by Indians for Indain Air Force.


 MKI production is also done by HAL but apparently we cant even prduce tyres for it by ourselves.......


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## SpArK

Jon Snow said:


> MKI production is also done by HAL but apparently we cant even prduce tyres for it by ourselves.......


 
* A clause in Sukhoi contract makes it mandatory for India to source spares, including tyres, only from Russian firms*






www.outlookindia.com |

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## koushik

Abingdonboy said:


> Well, if true, that's completely pointless, HAL should start producing simultaneously as original manufacture tonspeed up induction in larger numbers. and 2017-8 for ENTIRE induction of ALL MMRCA? I think that's a long shot and unlikely.
> 
> 
> Has there been any news on the NUMBER IAF will induct? There have been wild estimates (126-*260*!) if MMRCA goes to 260 and EFT is the winner then that could be *$20 BILLION!!!* Any idea??



It is needless to purchase 260 aircrafts for he mmrca deal coz it would take time till may be 2024 to the total production of these aircrafts.why manufacture 4.5 gen aircraft when there other 5th gen waiting for induction like fgfa and amca.so i think the tender will be capped at 126 aircrafts and maximum 200 aircrafts.


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## KS

sancho said:


> You could add Su 34 and Mig 29Ks for Russia and J15 for China as well


 
Thanks yaar.

Also the IAF doctrine calls for two pilots because ours is an offensive airforce atleast in the Western Sector and two pilots are required for conducting deep strikes without the worry of fatigue factor and also the pilot can fly without the worry of Target slection,firing which will be left to the Wizzo.


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## Ammyy

koushik said:


> It is needless to purchase 260 aircrafts for he mmrca deal coz it would take time till may be 2024 to the total production of these aircrafts.why manufacture 4.5 gen aircraft when there other 5th gen waiting for induction like fgfa and amca.so i think the tender will be capped at 126 aircrafts and maximum 200 aircrafts.


 
I think 126 are enough 
Its better to upgrade our MKI to 4.5 gen cause after 2022-24 we have two 5th gen fighters so inducting more 4.5 gen is not a good idea


----------



## Jon Snow

SpArK said:


> * A clause in Sukhoi contract makes it mandatory for India to source spares, including tyres, only from Russian firms*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outlookindia.com |


 Thnx......guess thats an example of russian arm twisting we keep hearing so much about
Why did we agree to such a clause even when we had previous experience in russian spares??


----------



## SpArK

Jon Snow said:


> Thnx......guess thats an example of russian arm twisting we keep hearing so much about
> Why did we agree to such a clause even when we had previous experience in russian spares??


 
Well we had problems with many.. we had problems with every non russian vendors too.. have to deal with it..

Some times MoD acts childish... take the case of transport aircraft (c-17).. we bought it for some money and later asked why aussies were sold for a cheaper rate.

I mean its like going to a shop buying a bottle of pepsi for 50 bucks and coming back and saying , oh wait you gave the same, to the other guy for 15 bucks explain that...... sounds childish..


----------



## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> Thanks yaar.
> 
> Also the IAF doctrine calls for two pilots because ours is an offensive airforce atleast in the Western Sector and two pilots are required for conducting deep strikes without the worry of fatigue factor and also the pilot can fly without the worry of Target slection,firing which will be left to the Wizzo.


 
Actually, I don't think MMRCAs will be twin seat versions, at least not the majority. IAF prefers the twin seat only for air superiority fighters, for long range and high endurrance missions, or for the dedicated strike fighters (apart from trainers of course). But the Mig 21, 29, or Mirage 2000s squads consist of the same 18 fighters MMRCA is about to get and they are divided into 16 single seat and 2 twin seat fighters. 
Also the EF uses the twin seat mainly as a trainer, for the operational service on the other hand they choose the single seat. This is one of the fighters used for the strike in Libya:








Rafale on the other hand has both versions in operational service for all roles, only the carrier varient is limited to single seat (a twin seat was developed, but cancelled for cost reasons):


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## sancho

Got this from BR:



> live update from Vishnu's pgm which quotes MOD 'sources'
> 
> - Mig35 - did poorly in trials
> - Gripen - radar underdeveloped. plane itself underdeveloped
> - F18 - performance concerns , after sales service concerns
> - F16 - future development limited, intrusive US laws
> 
> price shown in EF - rafale comparison slide was Euro 90 mil vs Euro 63 mil
> 
> retd air marshal of WAC says precision strike capabilities , standoff weapons and AESA radar are most important criteria and whatever we get has to be modular and upgradeable enough to last us 40 yrs and effectively replace retiring older a/c in IAF.

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## Kinetic

sancho said:


> Got this from BR:


 
These are some important issues. Beside precision strike, standoff weapons and AESA they should give equal importance to EW as well.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Got this from BR:


 
Can u explain further the price part.

Will it have effect on further upgrades ?

What is the status of upgrades and possible additions and the percentage of near to completion level of both?


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## IndianTiger

Good News..
Bad for P&C.


----------



## Kinetic

SpArK said:


> Can u explain further the price part.
> 
> Will it have effect on further upgrades ?
> 
> What is the status of upgrades and possible additions and the percentage of near to completion level of both?


 
EFT seems 50% more costly than Rafale! but I think IAF more interested in EFT so they called for extended price negotiation. They actually want EFT to bring the price down.


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## SpArK

Kinetic said:


> EFT seems 50% more costly than Rafale! but I think IAF more interested in EFT so they called for extended price negotiation. They actually want EFT to bring the price down.


 
I dont think they will further reduce it.. All the partners are interested in F-35 and further funding will depend on Indian money where as France will be going only for Rafale in future too. So I dont think IAF has any special interest in EFT.


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## farhan_9909

i hope they select Eurofighter

i want Rafale to die widow


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> These are some important issues. Beside precision strike, standoff weapons and AESA they should give equal importance to EW as well.


 
To be honest, the air marshal pretty much discribes the criterias I found to be important from the start, but with them the EF normally can't be shortlisted!

- it can only use LGB and so far even only a single type (1000lb)
- not a single A2G missiles was integrated, or is under integration now, recent news even said, that RAF don't want to integrate Brimstone, while it is an option for Rafale now
- the use of heavy weapons on EF is restricted by the fact that it has only 3 stations, that are also planed for fuel tanks
- official British analyses said, that the EF will be fully A2G capable only by 2018
- the AESA development is still not funded and already is likely to be delayed. Even if they get it done till 2015, it will be less mature and offer also less modes than the RBE 2 (even the Captor M today is said to have no air to sea modes, because the customers don't use the EF in these kind of role, but according to several sources maritime attack is important for India) 

Although I like the EF more than the F18SH, these requirements would have prefered the latter, that's why I am surprised by the shortlisting.

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## justanobserver

I don't think this has been posted 


A.K.Antony gains sainthood


> Whether the sudden exit of US Ambassador Timothy Roemer from his assignment in Delhi and the government&#8217;&#8217;s decision to reject the two American bids for the MMRCA [Multi-role combat aircraft] tender are related developments is a moot point.
> 
> Indeed, MMRCA was a lucrative contract which is worth 10 billion dollars at face value but worth manifold billions of dollars in the downstream through the coming 2 or 3 decades by way of additional supplies, spare parts, servicing, etc. More than the money, the Obama administration pitched hard as the business could generate dozens of thousands of jobs in the US. In strategic terms, MMRCA relates to the weapon system that IAF will use for next few decades and constituted a window of opportunity to gain a veritable American toe-hold in the Indian armed forces. Unsurprisingly, US saw this contract as a great window of opening to surge the military cooperation with India. Thus, a robust US campaign was afoot and Obama himself pitched in by writing to the prime minister. Senior state department officials routinely began singing panygerics - almost on weekly basis - lavishing praise on India as the rising star on the planet and as the cynosure of all good things to happen to mankind. Roemer himself openly reminded the Indian leadership last month that securing the MMRCA would do a world of good to US-India global strategic partnership (read containment of China).
> 
> Frankly, the Americans themselves are to be blamed for building up this sort of completely unwarranted hype, which makes on feel red on the face with embarrassment. MMRCA is a bloody serious affair for the Indians and the IAF and Delhi cannot go emotional about it when arriving at a decicision. But then, it is a characteristic feature of US (and Israeli) public diplomacy to keep puffing up hot air balloons and foisting then above the playground and make the spectators feel they are the real thing. Whereas, any close observer of the Indian policies - unless one were hopelessly marooned at the extreme wing of the ideological left or the ideologically vacuous Indian right - that at the end of the day, Delhi would assess its needs with clinical detachment.
> 
> Things can&#8217;t be otherwise so long as A K Antony holds the portfolio of Raksha Mantri. *No matter what you may say about the &#8216;Mallu mafia&#8217; in Delhi, at the end of the day, you need to admit this much that their finger nails have remained clean after all their dealings with public property. And, mind you, these are testy times when you trust just about no one in the dark.* To put MMRCA matters in perspective, Antony&#8217;s refusal to be entrapped into making political commitments that he couldn&#8217;t possibly fulfil prompted him to have the US-India strategic dialogue scheduled originally for mid-April to be scuttled although Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates were all set to travel to Delhi. We all knew at that time that something was brewing in Antony&#8217;s mind although he is a taciturn man by nature. In fact, that was the first indication that Antony&#8217;s mind was working hard about judging which MMRCA offer - American, European, French, Russian, etc. - might suit India&#8217;s defence needs optimally in the long-term, and the choice might just not necessarily fall on the two high-profile American bids out of mere political compulsions.
> 
> Equally, some nasty comments by a clutch of notoriously pro-American Delhi-based commentators at around that same time gave the plot away and made one suspect that the US embassy in Delhi might be working overtime about Antony&#8217;s &#8216;obduracy&#8217;. Nonetheless, the proof lay in the eating of the pudding, as they say, and one kept one&#8217;s fingers crossed.
> 
> Objectively speaking, however, the Americans have been vastly exaggerating the dimensions of the so-called US-India &#8216;golabl&#8217; strategic partnership - US&#8217;s &#8216;indispensable&#8217; partnership of the 21st century, et al - in an attempt to hustle the Indian opinion, which is usually ill-informed, excitable and highly prone to sentimentality and moodiness. This has been a classic situation where the other guy insists on saying to whoever is listening that you are his best pal in town and this is the only game in town and you are hard-pressed to deny that is not quite the case as is being made out and that he is only one among other guys you&#8217;d like to along with in real life.
> 
> The danger lies in upping the threshold of hype in any relationship. When a reality check ensues, you slide into depression. Last week, a former Indian ambassador to the US claimed that it would be a &#8216;breach of faith&#8217; if India didn&#8217;t facilitate nuclear business for the US. Really? He spoke as if he never heard of Fukoshima. What if Antony came to a sober conclusion that IAF needs something far better than what is on offer from the Americans? Will that, too, become a matter of &#8216;breach of faith&#8217;? Whose &#8216;faith&#8217; are we talking about anyway? The country&#8217;s - or some moonlighting individual&#8217;s? The problem is that too many vested interests have today developed over the gravy train of US-India partnership. And these fat cats are contributing to an unnatural build-up of expectations and are arrogating the right to set the tempo of the US-India ties that are so crucial to the country&#8217;s long-term interests.
> *
> The Indian policies in the recent months ample bear out that US-India partnership is not the be-all and end-all of Delhi&#8217;s world view. The patient efforts to build content into ties with Iran (which is never an easy thing to deal with), the nuanced stance on Libya, the constructive engagement of China&#8217;s Hu Jintao by the prime minister on the sidelines of the BRICS, the far-reaching India-Kazakh strategic ties, the commendable Mohali overture to Pakistan, Delhi&#8217;s stubborn refusal to be drawn into the US-Pakistan tensions or to fall into the American trap of transfroming Afghanistan into an India-Pakistan turf war, an independent line on Sri Lanka keeping the specific Indian priorities in view - all these are to be noted carefully.* Why, can&#8217;t Washington but notice that Delhi is not even doing any drum beating that an American-Tibetan is bringing the torch of democracy to Dharamsala from across the Atlantic!



A.K.Antony gains sainthood - Indian Punchline


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## SpArK

> No matter what you may say about the *&#8216;Mallu mafia&#8217; in Delhi*, at the end of the day, you need to admit this much that their finger nails have remained clean after all their dealings with public property. And, mind you, these are testy times when you trust just about no one in the dark.



Who the hell wrote this...


----------



## sancho

SpArK said:


> Can u explain further the price part.
> 
> Will it have effect on further upgrades ?
> 
> What is the status of upgrades and possible additions and the percentage of near to completion level of both?


 
I didn't see the report (waiting that NDTV uploads it), so I can't say what figures these are. Fly away (only for fighter and engines), or system prices (including weapons, spares and training).


----------



## justanobserver

SpArK said:


> Who the hell wrote this...


 
It's by M K Bhadrakumar. You might remember his articles from the Asia Times



> _Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey._


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## sancho

> *Boeing's Statement On F/A-18 Elimination From MMRCA*
> 
> "Boeing today was notified that our Super Hornet proposal for India&#8217;s MMRCA competition was not short listed in the initial down select. We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. Our next step is to request and receive a debrief from the Indian Air Force. Once we have reviewed the details, we will make a decision concerning our possible options, always keeping in mind the impact to the Indian Air Force. We believe we offered the Indian Air Force a fully compliant and best-value multi-role aircraft for the defined mission. We will continue to look for opportunities to help India modernize its armed services and enhance its aerospace industry. "



Livefist: Boeing's Statement On F/A-18 Elimination From MMRCA


P.S. Here is the NDTV video:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-special-ndtv-24x7/dog-fight-for-india/197978

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## SpArK

justanobserver said:


> It's by M K Bhadrakumar. You might remember his articles from the Asia Times


 
Yup.. got it.. he is the son of a famous mallu politican/journalist.. i was surprised to see the mafia word..

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Livefist: Boeing's Statement On F/A-18 Elimination From MMRCA


 
So it was indeed the hornet, which the upgraded engines offer debate , we were talking about.


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## Bagee

eurofighter all the way coming mark my words u like it or not it is inevitable so learn to like it


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## koushik

The Rafale packs a deadly punch both in Air to Air Operations as well as Air-to-Surface PGM Delivery.some of the most important weapons to be carried by the Rafale are the AIM-132 ASRAAM which has a range of 300m-to-18km.It has an advanced seeker seeker consisting of a Focal Planar Array (128 x 128) resolution Imaging Infrared allowing high resistance to ECM and even target engagement capability at maximum 90degree bore-sight angles.along with the Topsight-E HMS it can outperform any fighter in WVR Combat. The MBDA Meteor BVRAAM which has an advanced Throttalable Ducted Rocket (ramjet) propulsion gives it thrust till its max. Range.the missile features Multi shot capability and Multi target Identification capability.it can also attack Cruise Missiles.For Standoff PGM role the Rafale uses Damocles pod to deliver Paveway III LGB.it also uses Storm shadow PGM and exocet antiship missile.truely a deadly fighter


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## SpArK

Sancho 

@9:00.. the guy talks about getting equity of grippen.. I was advocating it for some time here in the forum... TaTA's should have done that long time back..


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> So it was indeed the hornet, which the upgraded engines offer debate , we were talking about.


 
Seems like that, but the performance issues NDTV talks about, could also be the engine problems of the Super Hornet at Leh.



SpArK said:


> Sancho
> 
> @9:00.. the guy talks about getting equity of grippen.. I was advocating it for some time here in the forum... TaTA's should have done that long time back..



Yes I noticed it too and as I said before, I would loved to see Saab as a partner of HAL for LCA/Gripen. We had the chance in the past (1980s), but missed it sadly, would have been a win win situation for both countries. But I also disagree with his example of Tata and cars, because Tata has a long history of JV with Mercedes for example, be it for cars, or trucks, so they benefitted a lot from indigenous developments *WITH* western techs and know how and that seems to be the important part in MMRCA again. Wished we would have done it with LCA the same way!


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## SpArK

LOL .. the naval admiral is critical on the 5 nation conglomerate , and he is rightly so.


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## RazorMC

SpArK said:


> domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale


 
Good link.
Now another achievement for India is the _source code_ for the AESA and we know Thales is no joke.

But this confirms my belief to some extent: Tejas was more of a demonstrator and it has played an important role in raising India's tech knowledge.

The ToT and access to the source-code for radar came as a result of not only the money involved, rather the knowledge France/Dassault had that if they didn't offer it, India would get access to those anyways. So why not make some money of it?

It is the same with the AMRAAMs we received. The US knew that we'd get the BVR missiles anyways and so they might as well make a few bucks.

Last piece of info:
IAF now has access to Rafale and combined with the T-50 in the coming years means that India gets a massive boost in air defense. This combination is second only to F-22/F-35 _combo_ or until something else comes along.

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## SpArK

India Rebuffs Boeing, Lockheed Bids in $11 Billion Warplane Deal - Bloomberg


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## xataxsata

Rafale


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> LOL .. the naval admiral is critical on the 5 nation conglomerate , and he is rightly so.


 
It is difficult fo sure, because it makes you dependent on several countries and that caused many delays in the EF development as well. Also Indias part in the consortium / partnership is not clear, do we really have a say, or do they just want to divert the orders they can't pay for and need our money for further developments?
The price NDTV talks about are estimations only, nothing official! What I also find interesting is, that this report again confirms radar issues for the Gripen and after sale issues for the F18. That the Gripen AESA is only a demo version is clear, but what are the after sale problems with Boeing, or does it have something to do with the US restrictions (remember their EUM laws would allow them to check the fighters frequently and test their systems after the procurements)?


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> Sancho
> 
> @9:00.. the guy talks about getting equity of grippen.. I was advocating it for some time here in the forum... TaTA's should have done that long time back..


 
Consider this : If someone wants to buy a significant chunk of BEL, adefence organisation in India, will India let that foreign entity get controlling rights? Answer : No.

Just a good idea, but not practical in defence sector.


----------



## SpArK

ramu said:


> Consider this : If someone wants to buy a significant chunk of BEL, adefence organisation in India, will India let that foreign entity get controlling rights? Answer : No.
> 
> Just a good idea, but not practical in defence sector.


 
The scenario is different from India, Sweden has no threat perception and they are trying hard to keep that industry alive.. There were reports on Saab's dismal financial position and who knows if we ever pushed it could be a JV or a collaboration..Saab has sold instituions like that before or had stocks ..

Some links:

Saab AB announces the sale of a 51% stock interest in Aero Systems Engineering Inc to Minnesota ASE, LLC | Cision Wire

RUAG Acquires Saab Space in $56M Deal - Defense News

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## rockstarIN

RazorMC said:


> Last piece of info:
> IAF now has access to Rafale and combined with the T-50 in the coming years means that India gets a massive boost in air defense. This combination is second only to F-22/F-35 _combo_ or until something else comes along.


 
Addition:- Since we are a partner in T-50, we can add the knowledge from T-50, LCA & Rafale jobs in to our own 5th Gen (AMCA) plan.

France will be ready to help, as they yet to join the F-35 programme and in future looking for a jet. They might partner with India for AMCA, since Russia will have little objections for it(T-50 partnership) as there is a surge in Russia-France military sales/relations.

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## sancho

Oh btw! With EF and Rafale beeing shortlisted, the advantage of engine commonality to Tejas is gone, because neither Gripen NG, nor the F18SH did in to the final stages. EJ 200 of the EF was rejected and the only possibility for commonality would be Kaveri - Snecma engines for LCA (MK 1 with the MLU, or follow MK2 orders) and Rafale.


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## tallboy123

Guys,Is Thales AESA Radar operational or if it is on development then when will it be completed??


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Addition:- Since we are a partner in T-50, we can add the knowledge from T-50, LCA & Rafale jobs in to our own 5th Gen (AMCA) plan.
> 
> France will be ready to help, as they yet to join the F-35 programme and in future looking for a jet. They might partner with India for AMCA, since Russia will have little objections for it(T-50 partnership) as there is a surge in Russia-France military sales/relations.


 
And yet you voted for EF.. explain that

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## Yeti

We will get full source codes with a advanced tech transfer package and new weapons instead of those bugged up yankee jets thank God


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## Machoman

xataxsata said:


> Rafale


 
No doubt this plane is very sexy....


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## Yeti

Rafale is one hell of a sexy bird there is no doubt about it!


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> And yet you voted for EF.. explain that


 
Like IAF, purely on technical terms..!!

No political views..

If there is a war with Pakistan/China, I would prefer in EF than Rafale to cross the broder..


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## Yeti

France will sell it's own mother for $$ they want to open up defence ties with China so i go for the EF also


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Like IAF, purely on technical terms..!!
> 
> No political views..
> 
> If there is a war with Pakistan/China, I would prefer in EF than Rafale to cross the broder..


 
Dont worry Raffy will send smally ( Mirage ) for that.


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## sancho

tallboy123 said:


> Guys,Is Thales AESA Radar operational or if it is on development then when will it be completed??


 
The radar is ready and serial production has started, but the first fighters with the radar, will be inducted only by 2012/13, because there are still some integration of other avionic and engine upgrades going on. New weapons are likely as well, the French asked for enhanced Paveway LGBs and as I meantioned before, Brimstone seems to be an option now. France itself is integrating and testing AASM with different guidance systems and weight classes, especially the 2000lb, that the French forces wants.

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## SpArK

Yeti said:


> France will sell it's own mother for $$ they want to open up defence ties with China so i go for the EF also


 
The much troubled highly priced EF is a well tailored excuse of the IAF for its preferance on Rafale


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## Yeti

SpArK said:


> The much troubled highly priced EF is a well tailored excuse of the IAF for its preferance on Rafale




true L1 will make Rafale ahead of the EF but i have a sneaking feeling the EF will take the crown


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## SpArK

Yeti said:


> true L1 will make Rafale ahead of the EF but i have a sneaking feeling the EF will take the crown


 
That means tech of GE414, SNecma-Kaveri and Euro jet.. God damn it...


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## SpArK

And finally, Russia announces MiG-35 knocked out of IAF

Russia says knocked out of Indian fighter jet tender - Yahoo! India Finance

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## Yeti

SpArK said:


> That means tech of GE414, SNecma-Kaveri and Euro jet.. God damn it...




We can perhaps use the single crystal blade technology the Eurojet will give us for AMCA plus the EF has so much growth potential it is the newest jet of them all and we can even fit the baby with thrust vector engines which will give it 10% extra boost if we want in the future


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## SpArK

Headlines today report video

US, Russian jets lose IAF deal: India : India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.


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## deckingraj

Ignore if this has already been posted - but for non-techies this is an interesting debate

Dog Fight for India


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## blain2

Either platform would be a great addition for the IAF and PAF definitely have their work cut out in front of them. One thing working for Rafale is the possibility of a future induction by the IN which would allow logistics to be simplified across the IAF/IN (something that may be the case with the Mig-29 induction by the IN).

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## SpArK

news.outlookindia.com | Pentagon Disappointed at Fighter Jet News From India

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## Dash

SpArK said:


> India Rebuffs Boeing, Lockheed Bids in $11 Billion Warplane Deal - Bloomberg



So finally its confirmed. I am so damn happy...


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## indianpatriot

Russia already has Su-30MKI,MIG-29 refit, PAK FA,Super 30s......doin't worry russian bros.


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## jdme

Kinetic said:


> If twin engine aircrafts only mean higher maintenance than all those developed F-22, PAK FA, Typhoon, Rafale, F-18, MKI are fools and you have got them. That is a totally ridiculous and funny idea. Its not strange that those stupids made such point but there is no point in arguing over that. Twin engine aircrafts have many advantages mainly two, like if an engine got problem still the fighter can fly, higher payloads, higher maneuverability.


 
They are not fools. They have ability to build their own planes, their own simulators and what not. We are buying their stuff if that idea is lost on you. Comparing us to actual makers is downright idiotic. India has very shoddy maintenance record. If you had actually build that plane, then we can argue about the merits and demerits and 2 engine plane.


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## Dash

I just had a simple logic, why will you go for oldies when you have fresh kids on the block?


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## jdme

justanobserver said:


> HAL is not in the same business as DRDO. *They are different agencies, different work, cannot be compared*.
> 
> HAL does *manufacturing* primarily, and they've done a pretty good job in that (*manufacturing*)


 
Hold on..By manufacturing, you basically mean assembly, unless you are talking about technology transfer or Indian actually building it's own stuff?

SO who does the maintenance work?


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## jdme

Dash said:


> I just had a simple logic, why will you go for oldies when you have fresh kids on the block?


 
Coz new is not always "proven". Because new means whole new level of training for pilots. New means too many unknowns..Ofcourse you don't want to buy something that's obsolete either.


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## notorious_eagle

rockstar said:


> Like IAF, purely on technical terms..!!
> 
> No political views..
> 
> *If there is a war with Pakistan/China, I would prefer in EF than Rafale to cross the broder*..



You have the MIG29 and SU30MKI for that, they are IAF's Air Superiority Fighters and are expected to punch through the enemy's defences. IAF is looking for a multi role aircraft that can drop bombs with precision and can fight its way out. Out of both EF and Rafale, i would say the Rafale is a multi role aircraft while EF is more geared towards air superiority missions.

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## ramu

jdme said:


> Hold on..By manufacturing, you basically mean assembly, unless you are talking about technology transfer or Indian actually building it's own stuff?
> 
> SO who does the maintenance work?


 
Manufacturing is not same as assembly. One of the activities in manufacturing is assembly. Manufacturing mechanical components is done by various techniques such as casting, forging, machining and other processes. Other aspects of manufacturing is raw material/stock selection or preparation of stock. Technology and process ofcourse will be available but still needs execution. In many of the cases, especially is closely gaurded defence product development, manufacturing at times is an art.


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## Dash

jdme said:


> Coz new is not always "proven". Because new means whole new level of training for pilots. New means too many unknowns..Ofcourse you don't want to buy something that's obsolete either.



This may sound bookish but its true.

So when we bought MKIs, MIGs, they were also new and pilots got trained, US is still practicing to land V-22 Ospreys. Training and learning are a contineous thing, you cant stop yourself from advancing thinking new things are difficult to grasp.


If you go by new then EF and Rafale are only new airframe design. Techs and Missiles are more or less same in all planes except Migs I will say. However the one thing it guarentees is that EF and Rafale will have more future and life which are yet to come. You will rip the benifits even after 15 years. Thats the main advantage.


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## ramu

notorious_eagle said:


> You have the MIG29 and SU30MKI for that, they are IAF's Air Superiority Fighters and are expected to punch through the enemy's defences. IAF is looking for a multi role aircraft that can drop bombs with precision and can fight its way out. Out of both EF and Rafale, i would say the Rafale is a multi role aircraft while EF is more geared towards air superiority missions.


 
I think you are right. I have the same opinion.


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## jdme

Dash said:


> This may sound bookish but its true.
> 
> So when we bought MKIs, MIGs, they were also new and pilots got trained, US is still practicing to land V-22 Ospreys. Training and learning are a contineous thing, you cant stop yourself from advancing thinking new things are difficult to grasp.
> 
> 
> If you go by new then EF and Rafale are only new airframe design. Techs and Missiles are more or less same in all planes except Migs I will say. However the one thing it guarentees is that EF and Rafale will have more future and life which are yet to come. You will rip the benifits even after 15 years. Thats the main advantage.


 

I may be repeating this for the 4th time but here it goes again: Russian/Americans...build their own plane. They have luxury of testing new planes because they have to. We are forking enormous sum of money over something that is not our own and if tomorrow it just crapped in it's pant, we won't be able to fix it. Buying someone else's plane is not advancing. It only guarantee's that we will always be behind. But since that's how we do it, why blow so much money over something untested? If it doesn't pan out tomorrow, will you be willing to pay through your pocket? If you wanna experiment, go experiment with LCA.

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## jdme

ramu said:


> Manufacturing is not same as assembly. One of the activities in manufacturing is assembly. Manufacturing mechanical components is done by various techniques such as casting, forging, machining and other processes. Other aspects of manufacturing is raw material/stock selection or preparation of stock. Technology and process ofcourse will be available but still needs execution. In many of the cases, especially is closely gaurded defence product development, manufacturing at times is an art.


 
So more chances of screwing up? I hear IJT prototype crashed again. HAL built, right? Is it Indian designed?


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## SpArK

jdme said:


> So more chances of screwing up? I hear IJT prototype crashed again. HAL built, right? Is it Indian designed?


 
yes its in design and testing mode... not like the ones fully developed and build with ToT.


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## localoca

rajusri said:


> Comparing French technology with chinese!


 
whe did the French develop fith gen tech...? heck they are strugling to sell their failed 4th gen Rafale...

Euro whished they had anything close to the high tech J-20


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## koushik

Whichever aircraft the IAF Chooses will be absolutely brilliant for the already developing Indian Military Aviation Industry.if IAF Chooses Eurofighter Typhoon it would become a strategic industrial partner in the European Consortium which manufactures Eurofighter so India will be able to integrate new technologies in the future tranches of Typhoon and even upgrade other aircrafts in its inventory with these technologies.Then again India will get access to the single crystal blade technology of the EJ-200 engine and can use it for its own use.On the other hand if Rafale is chosen india will be able to work closely with Dassault which has been a long and trustworthy supplier and may be in future a fine tuned of the Kaveri can be fitted on the Rafale.so its good for India in both ways.Senior Members what do think ?

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## GORKHALI

localoca said:


> whe did the French develop fith gen tech...? heck they are strugling to sell their failed 4th gen Rafale...
> 
> Euro whished they had anything close to the high tech J-20


 
So would you like to paste some details for J 20 here ??? so at least w can compare what *CMC* sent you via email as you are not in china anyway.

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## jdme

^^I want a sub sandwich.


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## GORKHALI

localoca said:


> whe did the French develop fith gen tech...? heck they are strugling to sell their failed 4th gen Rafale...
> 
> Euro whished they had anything close to the high tech J-20


 
Don't just try to derail some nice discussion,either you take back seat and start suckling ya toes or just wait and watch that how things should be done .Your call


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## jdme

I hear in both F-22 and J-20, W is painted as M. Is this some kind of 5th generation thing?


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## my name is arya

both are good planes but now we dont need to waste any ore time select any one and induct ASAP

we should work in lca2,pakfa,mca


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## GORKHALI

*FAN ART FROM BAGERA DEVIAN**(NOW WHO'S THE DADDY HERE ??)*P


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## Firemaster

SpArK said:


> *EF's canards looks like a funny mustache
> *


 
No Buddy EF's itself looks like a mouse in this pic(look carefully) with canards as mustache


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## subarihant

jdme said:


> To read about Indian military, I actually go to Pakistani defense section.
> 
> Or this:
> IAF news and views
> 
> I know they hate us but their points are valid. I doubt any civilian has absolutely any clue about true potential of our armed forces and if one just go by the "releases" or what goes on BR, we might as well be Martians invading earth. And then we box ourselves with "Pakistan this Pakistan that" thinking. I fear we are in for rude awakening if we are actually tested.


 
And you find no discussion there (your pakdef link) as true discussion and rejoice in it. Strange !!!


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## ramu

jdme said:


> So more chances of screwing up? I hear IJT prototype crashed again. HAL built, right? Is it Indian designed?


 
One who has not failed has never tried. You can not make omelets without breaking eggs.

Consider them not as on-liners but facts of life.


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## Dash

jdme said:


> I may be repeating this for the 4th time but here it goes again: Russian/Americans...build their own plane. They have luxury of testing new planes because they have to. .



You forgot France and its so called successful Mirage programe.



> We are forking enormous sum of money over something that is not our own and if tomorrow it just crapped in it's pant, we won't be able to fix it.



There is no solution to this problem in India now so no point in crying over this. We have to buy but keep in mind we have to buy the best. which is not American and Russian here. Its French/European.



> Buying someone else's plane is not advancing



Wrong!!!...We dont advance in science or tech but we do in security and war planning.




> . It only guarantee's that we will always be behind. But since that's how we do it, why blow so much money over something untested? If it doesn't pan out tomorrow, will you be willing to pay through your pocket?



Like I said, there is no point wasting time. If I have to buy a car I will rather buy a modern car which can be easily serviced and parts readily available not some old, though reliable one, coz its not stay longer and servicin and manintaining it it will only get costlier. Same applies to economy of fighter planes



> If you wanna experiment, go experiment with LCA



We are doing it, there is no if word in it. and thats why we can sustain such new tech transfer and still make it.* Africa cant build a Rafale even though there is end to end tech transfer.*


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## bhagat

> (Reuters) - Boeing Co on Thursday said it was disappointed by India's rejection of its bid for a $11 billion fighter jet deal, adding that it would mull its options after reviewing details.
> 
> "We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. Our next step is to request and receive a debrief from the Indian Air Force," the world's largest aerospace and defence company said in a statement on Thursday.
> 
> "Once we have reviewed the details, we will make a decision concerning our possible options," it added.
> 
> India has rejected bids from Boeing and fellow U.S. firm Lockheed Martin , shortlisting European firms instead, in a move that could sour its relationship with the United States while broadening its strategic ties with other regions.



Boeing says disappointed with rejection on India fighter deal | Reuters

Sorry if already posted ......


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## armageddon2012

can somebody explain why i am not able to vote in the above poll??


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## koushik

my name is arya said:


> both are good planes but now we dont need to waste any ore time select any one and induct ASAP
> 
> we should work in lca2,pakfa,mca


 
bro just chill.both the planes are good and regarding the development of LCA-2 the HAL will roll out first prototype in 2013 and by mid 2015-2016 it will be Inducted in the IAF.the Russian Version PAK FA is in a mature stage and would be inducted in the IAF starting 2017-18 and the Indo-Russian FGFA is also progessing very fast after the agreement was signed between India and Russia.It will enter production in 2020-21.The AMCA would only fly by 2025 and at present its research work is in full swing.so dont worry.


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## bhagat

armageddon2012 said:


> can somebody explain why i am not able to vote in the above poll??


 
i think only members can vote...


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## tallboy123

armageddon2012 said:


> can somebody explain why i am not able to vote in the above poll??


 
u have to be full member...for a full member u need atleast 100 post count

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------




armageddon2012 said:


> can somebody explain why i am not able to vote in the above poll??


 
u have to be full member...for a full member u need atleast 100 post count


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## armageddon2012

bhagat said:


> i think only members can vote...



WHAT!!


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## lepziboy

I`m still kinda confused about these two planes I just wish that both of them wins.Even though thats impossible


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## blackops

guys any news if the numbers will increase or will remain the same 126


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## Mirza Jatt

blackops said:


> guys any news if the numbers will increase or will remain the same 126


 
tough to say, But I think it might increase....since there will be no split selection and also heard vishnu Some of NDTV today saying that the numbers might well increase.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

*Guys,EF Typhoon is superior to rafale in over all performance ??*

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## sancho

Indian Jatt said:


> tough to say, But I think it might increase....since there will be no split selection and also heard vishnu Some of NDTV today saying that the numbers might well increase.


 
Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.

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## subarihant

Wouldn't it be nice to have 60 Rafales with the Strategic forces command and rest 126 Eurofighters for normal service ?


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## Mirza Jatt

sancho said:


> Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.



Good point. 

BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.

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## blackops

subarihant said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to have 60 Rafales with the Strategic forces command and rest 126 Eurofighters for normal service ?


 
no just get one not 2 and stuff we should reduce the types of aircrafts in our inventory as it leads to maintaince and infrastructure problems


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## blackops

sancho said:


> Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.


 
yeah but lets just round the figure to 150 or so i think that will be done and true about lca mk2 but what about those 42 lca mk1 when are they coming in service

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------




Indian Jatt said:


> Good point.
> 
> BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.


 
but its not yet developed while as n rafale is working pretty fine


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## lepziboy

what kind of aircraft does IAF need at this moment more on A2A or A2G?


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## desimorty

> Tejas program being part of the larger deal with MMRCA means Tejas as of now is a flop, by that I would like to point a few points:
> 
> - It has been years and years since LCA and Tejas have been in "indigenous" development.
> 
> - Without MMRCA, India still can get complete knowledge and engine ToT for Tejas and LCA. This shows lack of confidence and a weakness in your jets with MMRCA.
> 
> - Would you be willing to spend billions on buying foreign tech or rather spend lesser in your own tech and produce at home, while spend the rest eliminating the poor millions of Indians from slums.
> 
> TOT(transfer of technology) doesnot allow you complete transfer of equipment, materials, designs etc etc...you are still dependant on the seller for a long long time as in the case of Su 30 MKIs. The spare parts are still arriving from Russia and the cost of plane is still the market value as sold to other countries although TOT has happened.
> 
> Rafale has defects, and all knows about it, rather I would ask you how many buyers are there for the over-priced Rafale jets?



You're really picking what you want to hear. Its called selective hearing. 
No doubt the project has come under criticism. So was the Rafale, Typhoon, JSF etc...
The Japanese themselves are partnering with international companies to design and develop their next generation fighter aircraft.
Most of the goals have been met. Realistically, there is poor project management. Where Kaveri failed, it can be applied to the next gernation engine, that uses a M88 core. In the end, when ToT arrives, the Tejas will be more capable and more Indian than it is now.
The Su-30mki is not entirely built in India. Most the newer variants are though. Whatever is economical to build in India stays in Russia.
The good thing about ToT is that it comes with the equipment. While millions maybe in slums, the longterm solution says, you need to give these people jobs. In other words, teach them to fish. This is good for the Indian industry in the long run. Basically, through India's own effort. The Indian industry would have built up the capability but with time. But since India has shown good progress in it, why would a business man miss the opportunity to not only sell, something they could have, and sell it right now to pay for the their own companies expenses. While at the same time increasing their own market.

Your arguments, seem very weak.
The given is the poor project management in the Tejas. Given the QSR requirements of the Tejas, it is extremely high standards.
But this doesn't make the project a failure. Nor is it just a technology demonstrator, which the US Russia and China have built plenty of.
Infact, I would argue that the Tejas, has one of the lowest project costs for a 4th generation aircraft.

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## Gene

thats right.india select typhoon & rafale as MMRCA shortlists.

but someone tell me_ ye dono fighter kitna deti hai _????

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## Mirza Jatt

*Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision*

Following the ejection of the United States from the race to secure a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, a top India analyst here said that there were many in the United States who would describe the Indian government&#8217;s decision as having &#8220;settled for a plane, not a relationship.&#8221; 

Commenting on the shortlist announced by the Government of India on Thursday, which included the European Eurofighter and French Rafale aircraft but not the U.S.-built F/A-18 Super Hornet by Boeing and the F16IN Super Viper by Lockheed Martin, Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said, &#8220;The downselect decision clearly represents the IAF&#8217;s choice, which the MOD [Ministry of Defence] ] has obviously gone along with as expected.&#8221; 

Mr. Tellis added that while both the fighters down-selected were &#8220;extremely agile platforms&#8221;, and excelled in &#8220;maneuverability, acceleration, and flight envelopes&#8221;, their &#8220;big weakness&#8221; was their primary sensor. 

Arguing that neither the Eurofighter nor the Rafale had an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar &#8211; handy for stealth operations across a wider range of signal frequencies &#8211; yet, the bigger questions were &#8220;not technical, but strategic&#8221;. 

Questioning whether these aircraft represented the best value for the IAF and the best investments for India overall, Mr. Tellis said to The Hindu that those in the U.S. who felt that India had settled for an aircraft over a strategic relationship would also conclude that &#8220;there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.&#8221; 

Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced. 

He said that it only made things worse given that &#8220;the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.&#8221; 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1819298.ece

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

now dont shoot the messenger.

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## praveen007

Indian Jatt said:


> Good point.
> 
> BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.


 
so dose the Rafale. As they do have an oprational naval prototype on test in franch naval AC


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## sancho

blackops said:


> true about lca mk2 but what about those 42 lca mk1 when are they coming in service...
> 
> ...but its not yet developed while as n rafale is working pretty fine


 
Without any futher delays in the next 2 to 4 years, including integration of weapons I would say. That's the point, imo INs only option now is the Rafale, because the Sea Typhoon is a totally paper plane, without any future, because nobody wants it. Rafale is operational and would be a perfect gap filler till we can induct a 5th gen FGFA, or AMCA on our future carriers. 




Indian Jatt said:


> ...Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced.
> 
> He said that it only made things worse given that &#8220;the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [*and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.*&#8221;



 Is he complaining that GoI didn't gave them the chance for backdoor negotiations? In that case, well done IAF/MoD/GoI!


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## praveen007

Indian Jatt said:


> *Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision*
> 
> Following the ejection of the United States from the race to secure a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, a top India analyst here said that there were many in the United States who would describe the Indian government&#8217;s decision as having &#8220;settled for a plane, not a relationship.&#8221;
> 
> Commenting on the shortlist announced by the Government of India on Thursday, which included the European Eurofighter and French Rafale aircraft but not the U.S.-built F/A-18 Super Hornet by Boeing and the F16IN Super Viper by Lockheed Martin, *Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said, &#8220;The downselect decision clearly represents the IAF&#8217;s choice, which the MOD [Ministry of Defence] ] has obviously gone along with as expected.&#8221;
> 
> Mr. Tellis added that while both the fighters down-selected were &#8220;extremely agile platforms&#8221;, and excelled in &#8220;maneuverability, acceleration, and flight envelopes&#8221;, their &#8220;big weakness&#8221; was their primary sensor.
> 
> Arguing that neither the Eurofighter nor the Rafale had an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar &#8211; handy for stealth operations across a wider range of signal frequencies &#8211; yet, the bigger questions were &#8220;not technical, but strategic&#8221;. *
> 
> Questioning whether these aircraft represented the best value for the IAF and the best investments for India overall, Mr. Tellis said to The Hindu that those in the U.S. who felt that India had settled for an aircraft over a strategic relationship would also conclude that &#8220;there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.&#8221;
> 
> Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced.
> 
> He said that it only made things worse given that &#8220;the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.&#8221;
> 
> The Hindu : News / International : Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision
> 
> now dont shoot the messenger.


 
does mr. Nellis forget to read U.S.A. Gov notice that any country buying their arms is subjected to following laws CISMOSA, LSA, EUM .
INDIAN gov had done a good job by not selecting u.s. Planes


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## desimorty

> What about you, you have "NONE" as compared to our JF17s ? And Jf17 numbers by end year would be 42. There is no envy of India getting Rafale or EFs but I was rather pointing out that your Tejas and LCA have failed completed with no operational squadrons and so goes that "indigenous" Indian tag.
> 
> Secondly, Rafale jet a rejected jet with or without Tot with such price is a "BAD" decision, I would still go for Gripen - NG, F-18s or F-15 the Silent Eagle(stealth) version. EF with anyone of my mentioned planes is far deadly combination than Rafale & EF.
> 
> Anyways GOOD LUCK with your purchases.


Because they appear in large numbers, does not mean that the Tejas has failed.
The 2 projects, are in different categories.
You're comparing a different airframe manufacturing process to something like a mutilated J-7.
The JF-17 uses C+ for its FBR. That is all you need to know what market it is intended for.



> Thankyou for the link mr Indian, to finally prove my point, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with " 5 " customers. You do the math, who wins, hands down. EF and Gripen NG, the better choice, FAIL IAF, FAIL India again!


QSR. Do you need a single engine aircraft or a twin engine?



> Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.


How much of the JF-17 is actually new? The manufacturing plus the airframe is a mutilated J07 like the J-8. 
Your're also comparing an aircraft that apperantly just breezed through flight tests. 
What weapons have been tested? payload etc... everything to do with the flight envelope. 
My bet is that the aircraft is cheap to produce. A complete flight envelope will only be opened in the next 3-5 years.


> Continued...
> 
> Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.
> 
> Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.
> 
> Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone.
> 
> Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?



You don't know how things work do you?
People have been calling the Tejas a failure since 2001 and yet its still going. The same was said for the Arjun, Akash, Nag etc..
Like I said before, if HAL wanted to built a aircraft, they would have built Mig21 Jagaur type aircraft, that are already manufactured in India. Problem with that is the airframe, engine expectations.
Allowing aircraft to be assembled, manufactured in India does not make the aircraft cheaper to actually justify ToT costs. Reason why this is done, is so repairs can be done in house. Manufacturing process upgrade to bring the industry to current standards.
Equipment, parts etc... cost the same, no matter where you go. Especially with military equipment.
So a Su-30MKI built in Russia will cost less than in HAL. The Russian assembly line has made a profit and already has turnovers. HAL just invested in a new assembly line that needs to be paid off! plus the royality paid to Russians. But whats the advantage? Well, with future upgrades, more Indian make can be included into the Flankers, eventually bringing enough work load and jobs to India in the end!


> hmm,can MKI fly without tyres,did anyone tell indian before that russia was offering china two type of su-30MK back in 90',guess which one we choice finally.MKI=&#21326;&#32780;&#19981;&#23454;&#65292;it looks glamorous ,but far inferior to F16C/D


PLAAF choice the plain flanker with ToT and export version of Su-30MK(K) specifically for PLAAF.
Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK biggest difference is not the Radar or engines, but rather the avionics and the easy pilot interface that allows the Su-30MKI be a swingrole aircraft. It can do both air to air operations and air to ground, in one shorty. The IAF even trains for it! changing tactics in the air.
Even the USAF doesn't doesn't do this yet. Of course the Hornet pilots may, but I don't think the have the pilot interface for it yet.


> Logic states they should go for EF. No conflicts of interest with Pakistan. France unlike the Americans will continue to sell to Pakistan as long as we want to buy something from them. Its also several years a newer platform than the Rafale.


lowest bidder. that meets the minimum requirements.


> Pakistan needs to act fast we should go J-10B as soon as possible otherwise it can be to late


PAF can not afford an arms race with India. That much should be obvious.


> So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?
> 
> India is finally shinning!
> 
> Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.


China has how many Flankers? Flanker engines? hmmm? some where in the 200s right? 
btw half of the 10 billion comes back to India.


> And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...
> 
> 
> ... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20.
> 
> So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier.
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too!


because you know the secret of J-20 right?


> HAL will assemble.


starts with assemble, goes further. Slow process, to soak in the technology and methods.


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## 500

Question which missiles Rafale will use if selected: MICA? AMRAAM? R-77? Which targeting pod - Damocles, Litening III?


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## KS

500 said:


> Question which missiles Rafale will use if selected: MICA? AMRAAM? R-77? Which targeting pod - Damocles, Litening III?


 
Mica will be the SRAAM and the Meteor will be the BVRAAM I suppose.

The targeting pod will be the Damocles.


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## metro

*Ok. so have we finally decided which aircraft is better ?*


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## JayAtl

metro said:


> *Ok. so have we finally decided which aircraft is better ?*


 
PAK FA  we have a consensus on that for now


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## KS

Dog Fight for India

An absolute shocker at 13:50 - 

_--- Unclear if either the Rafale or the EFT will clear the commercial offset requirements - if neither do, then the entire process comes to a nought and there will have to be a re-tender or the process will have to be scrapped._


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## metro

Karthic Sri said:


> Dog Fight for India
> 
> An absolute shocker at 13:50 -
> 
> _--- Unclear if either the Rafale or the EFT will clear the commercial offset requirements - if neither do, then the entire process comes to a nought and there will have to be a re-tender or the process will have to be scrapped._


 
Haha.. 

gai bhens pani me.


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## hembo

SpArK said:


> And yet you voted for EF.. explain that


 
Ha ha ha!! Caught red handed.. lol

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## SpArK

Carnegie's Ashley Tellis: "U've settled for a plane, not a relationship". 

IAF to Ashley: "Not looking for a relationship,but a plane, thanks"

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## hembo

jdme said:


> They are not fools. They have ability to build their own planes, their own simulators and what not. We are buying their stuff if that idea is lost on you. Comparing us to actual makers is downright idiotic. India has very shoddy maintenance record. If you had actually build that plane, then we can argue about the merits and demerits and 2 engine plane.


 
Are you actually sore that F-16 and F/H-18 S/H bit the dust or just bringing in these crappy debates just for fun?

If you are interested in debating two engine/ single engine, two pilot/ single pilot or any other issues ridiculed in your loved forum you mentioned, why don't you open another thread to discuss it? This thread is about MMRCA shortlisting and do keep it that way.


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## hembo

SpArK said:


> *India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
> *The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.
> 
> *StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*
> 
> StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation&#8217;s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB&#8217;s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.
> 
> It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.
> 
> It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it&#8217;s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.
> 
> One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.
> 
> The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.
> 
> Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF&#8217;s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.
> 
> 
> India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist


 
This probably is the most thanked post in the history of this forum!!! I am so envious of Spark, why could not I open this thread????


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## SpArK

hembo said:


> This probably is the most thanked post in the history of this forum!!! I am so envious of Spark, why could not I open this thread????


 
A mighty flame followeth a tiny spark.


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## DV RULES

EF far better than Rafale, in case Indian MOD goes for Rafale then they decide loosing technology superiority of Typhoon.



> In 2004, United States Air Force Chief of Staff General John P. Jumper said after flying the Eurofighter, "I have flown all the air force jets. None was as good as the Eurofighter."
> 
> The Typhoon's combat performance, compared to the F-22 Raptor and the upcoming F-35 Lightning II[129] fighters and the French Dassault Rafale, has been the subject of much discussion. In March 2005, Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Raptor, talked to Air Force Print News about these two aircraft. He said,
> 
> The Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. They are different kinds of airplanes to start with; it's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula One car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance. The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high g forces), very impressive. That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc.  all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive.



Suerly it is hard to compare typhoon with F-22 but for Indian air force typhoon is best option than any other.


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## SpArK

In February a company called G2 Solutions has made an analysis.. Here it is.. I think its never been posted.


*MMRCA: Our initial analysis​*
The following table is a quick G2 Internal exercise conducted in early February that shows where, at the time, we believed each competitor was likely to end up in the final selection. Its highly qualitative in nature and based solely on open source intelligence.






​
MMRCA: Our initial analysis | G2 Solutions News Analysis

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## hembo

---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------



justanobserver said:


> HAL is not in the same business as DRDO. *They are different agencies, different work, cannot be compared*.
> 
> HAL does *manufacturing* primarily, and they've done a pretty good job in that (*manufacturing*)


 
With replies like this, you are no longer *Just an Observer*.. Consider changing your nick.. lol!!


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## hembo

SpArK said:


> In February a company called G2 Solutions has made an analysis.. Here it is.. I think its never been posted.
> 
> 
> *MMRCA: Our initial analysis​*
> The following table is a quick G2 Internal exercise conducted in early February that shows where, at the time, we believed each competitor was likely to end up in the final selection. It&#8217;s highly qualitative in nature and based solely on open source intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> MMRCA: Our initial analysis | G2 Solutions News Analysis


 
Amazingly close analysis except they had rated F-16 in the top tier!!


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## dbc

So Typhoon and Rafale it is, I am both surprised and disappointed the F/A-18 E/F did not make it.
It is time for me to switch allegiance to the Rafale, I have that luxury since I'm half French.

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## SpArK

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> So Typhoon and Rafale it is, I am both surprised and disappointed the F/A-18 E/F did not make it.
> It is time for me to switch allegiance to the Rafale, I have that luxury since I'm half French.


 
Ha... we kinda missed you in between, remembering all the Hornet talks.. 

Since you are half frenchie , lets play the Rafale game.


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## tallboy123




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## tushar

> Amazingly close analysis except they had rated F-16 in the top tier!!


Have you seen the specs of F16 ??/ Its a amazing plane and way better than even F16 block 60 at a price which nobody can match....If we can get past the fact that PAF is using F16 for a long time, it is one of the best option...i would have placed it among the top if PAF would not have used it....


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## tallboy123




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## Hulk

SpArK said:


> In February a company called G2 Solutions has made an analysis.. Here it is.. I think its never been posted.
> 
> 
> *MMRCA: Our initial analysis​*
> The following table is a quick G2 Internal exercise conducted in early February that shows where, at the time, we believed each competitor was likely to end up in the final selection. Its highly qualitative in nature and based solely on open source intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> MMRCA: Our initial analysis | G2 Solutions News Analysis


 
Clearly both F18 and FIN where doing very poor on India issues.


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## tallboy123




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## hembo

tushar said:


> Have you seen the specs of F16 ??/ Its a amazing plane and way better than even F16 block 60 at a price which nobody can match....If we can get past the fact that PAF is using F16 for a long time, it is one of the best option...i would have placed it among the top if PAF would not have used it....


 
You are actually right, the F-16 IN was indeed awesome. But, the fact that we need this planes for probably the next 40 years would have played a major role in its rejection along with the fact that the numerous restriction with ToT/ end use/ Spares etc. The fact that PAF is using a older version of the same airframe actually should have been a positive reason to go for the latest version of F-16. It would have actually given us a lot of advantages in understanding how to destroy its older and weaker versions..


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## tallboy123




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## Ras

Real pity the SH was not shortlisted...it would have given the best bang for buck within the required MRCA parameters. But I guess the wikileaks incident made dealing with US toxic in India.

OT..it has been a long time since I visited defence.pk, and just reading this thread,I can see that most of the old trolls and some new ones are all still here.


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## Hulk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> So Typhoon and Rafale it is, I am both surprised and disappointed the F/A-18 E/F did not make it.
> It is time for me to switch allegiance to the Rafale, I have that luxury since I'm half French.


 
F/18 and F-16 both mainly have issues due to them being US based. I do not think they are as flexible in sharing tech as others.
Anyways now it is Rafale time for some. I see that offset and TOT played a big role.


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## tallboy123




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## Hulk

SpArK said:


> Ha... we kinda missed you in between, remembering all the Hornet talks..
> 
> Since you are half frenchie , lets play the Rafale game.


 
By the way French girls are damn beautiful.

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## VelocuR

*As a Pakistani, my Congratulations to India- a very wise decision, hope Rafale win whatever right choice made *

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## hembo

TOI at it again:

Fighter jet rebuff, Roemer exit, signal US-India distance


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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


>


 
Is this the only one with 2 side joysticks instead of a central one?? 

Can any senior members answer that one... would be worth knowing.


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## dbc

SpArK said:


> Ha... we kinda missed you in between, remembering all the Hornet talks..
> 
> Since you are half frenchie , lets play the Rafale game.


 
ow! you did, that is so sweet .. 

Just so you know, frenchie is considered offensive.

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## dbc

SpArK said:


> Is this the only one with 2 side joysticks instead of a central one??
> 
> Can any senior members answer that one... would be worth knowing.


 
The control on the left console is the throttle the one on the right is the flight control stick.


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## SpArK

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The control on the left console is the throttle the one on the right is the flight control stick.


 
Is there any other fighter which has the same.. ??

Also wont it require time in familiarizing, since pilots will be trained in the single joystick in trainers ?


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## SpArK

F-16 has a side stick
pheww..


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## tallboy123

SpArK said:


> Is there any other fighter which has the same.. ??
> 
> Also wont it require time in familiarizing, since pilots will be trained in the single *joystick* in trainers ?


do they call that joystick??


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## VelocuR

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The control on the left console is the throttle the one on the right is the flight control stick.


 
Isn't this very challenging? It must be confusion?


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## dbc

SpArK said:


> Is there any other fighter which has the same.. ??
> 
> Also wont it require time in familiarizing, since pilots will be trained in the single joystick in trainers ?


 
Most fighters and jet trainers have throttle control on the left console, side stick takes a bit of getting used to especially if the pilot is converting from a center stick to side stick and it is harder for left handed pilots. Side stick controls are stiffer have less play and pilots switching from center to side stick have a tendency to over rotate on take off, nothing a few hours in the simulator won't fix.


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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


> do they call that joystick??


 
Naa side stick, control stick maybe the word used , i guess.


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## RazorMC

Indian Jatt said:


> *Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision*


 
Sometimes I wonder how silly do they think non-Americans are ?? Why would India spend billions on aircraft with so many strings and limitations attached ??
What they call a strategic relationship can be translated to : "We say, you do."

If you look at the past, you'll see exactly what happens when you buy American aircraft:

1- You pay for the aircraft
2- You don't receive the aircraft
3- You get charged for the aircraft being parked in a desert
4- No refunds
5- You are assured you will get the aircraft once you pay again

^^ Sounds similar ??

========

Oh btw, the EF looks like a catfish to me regardless of its performance.

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## VelocuR

It is supposed to contain parts of the Spectra system, but exactly what components have not been made clear. Most of the Spectra antennas at the back of the aircraft are actually located here





The antennas at the very back of the pod above are the same type as those under the intakes in the pic BW posted. The little black thing toward the middle of the pod is the rear oriented laser detector. The DDM (missile launch detector) would be there as well if it were fitted. Here's a better picture of the other Spectra antennas under the intakes





My understanding is that the green antennas (above and at the back of the fin top pod) are transmitters, and the black antennas such as those at the base of the canards and the tips of the wingtip rails are receivers. I can't claim to know that for sure, however. I guess the point of all this is, that pod above the engines doesn't look like any other Spectra component.

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## SpArK

RazorMC said:


> Sometimes I wonder how silly do they think non-Americans are ?? Why would India spend billions on aircraft with so many strings and limitations attached ??
> What they call a strategic relationship can be translated to : "We say, you do."
> 
> If you look at the past, you'll see exactly what happens when you buy American aircraft:
> 
> 1- You pay for the aircraft
> 2- You don't receive the aircraft
> 3- You get charged for the aircraft being parked in a desert
> 4- No refunds
> 5- You are ensured you will get the aircraft once you pay again
> 
> ^^ Sounds similar ??
> 
> ========
> 
> Oh btw, the *EF looks like a catfish to me regardless of its performance*.


 
That canards have resemblence with whisker of catfish.. i have noticed same..

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## VelocuR

Eurofighter (with canards) and Teja discussed.....

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## Water Car Engineer




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## SpArK

RaptorRX707 said:


> Rafale (with canards) and Teja discussed.....


 
That is EF and TEJA*S*... ..... "s" is not silent too..

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## Water Car Engineer




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## dbc

SpArK said:


> That canards have resemblence with whisker of catfish.. i have noticed same..



The Typhoons refueling probe is too close to the control canard, the refueling basket has been known to strike the aircraft in difficult flying conditions created by the wake of a much larger jet.


I suspect Typhoon pilots have to be especially careful while tanking.


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## SpArK

*U.S. Industry Loses Big in India: Is ITAR to Blame?​*


Defense contractors and industry experts are trying to come to grips with Indias decision to exclude The Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. from its $11 billion competition for a new fighter jet.

No specific rationale has yet been given by the Indian government for its determination to jettison Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed F-16 and Saabs Gripen fighters, and proceed with a head-to-head contest only between two European offers  the Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale.

Companies are very concerned about the logic for the decision, said a U.S. industry source. Theres a bit of puzzlement.

*India's decision was very surprising, says Tom Captain, vice chairman of global and U.S. aerospace and defense leader at Deloitte LLP. If the selection was based on technical merits, "It is difficult to explain how those two very capable aircraft were eliminated."
*


In the absence of factual information about how the selection was made,* speculation is growing that restrictive U.S. export policies may have played a significant role in Indias evaluation of fighter jet candidates. Analysts had predicted that at least one of the two U.S. contenders would have the inside track. U.S. technology is considered more advanced, and more coveted by rising powers such as India. *President Obama also raised the stakes by personally making a pitch on behalf of U.S. industry to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his visit to India. He also sent Singh a letter reinforcing the importance of Indias fighter program to the Obama administration. India is expected to buy up to 200 new aircraft.

*We feel that our products are the best possible available, said the industry source.*

India is projected to spend $80 billion on new weapons and space systems over the next five years. Its only a small fraction of what the United States spends, but the industry still regards it as a promising region where, once you get a foot in the door, opportunities could blossom. 

Defense industry analyst Byron Callan contends that technology transfer was a major consideration in this competition.

*Callan presumes that the U.S. government was unwilling to see key AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar and other avionics and electronic warfare technology made available at the level India wanted, Callan writes in a memo to industry investors. Technology transfer has also been a key consideration in Brazils FX fighter competition which has been delayed.*

One issue to watch as a result of this decision, says Callan, *is whether the U.S. further relaxes defense technology export restrictions in order to keep domestic production lines open. This is a major concern for U.S. manufacturers as Pentagon spending begins to contract next year. In the past, Callan says, when the U.S. restrained or reduced its defense spending, policy shifted to exporting advanced weapons to strategic partners.*

*He notes that F/A-18 production may still run through the end of this decade based on U.S. orders and from countries that had hoped for F-35s and who operate earlier-generation F/A-18s. The longevity of the F-16, meanwhile, hinges on its ability to win in niche markets in the Middle East, but it is less relevant to Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman (which makes the radar) with F-35 and the new bomber program ramping up.
*


*For Boeing, losing Indias sales is a big blow because it needs foreign sales to keep the F/A-18 line open beyond the coming decade, unlike Lockheed, which has a long-term lifeline in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter.*

It will be interesting to see what India does with combat fighter technology acquired from either Dassault or EADS and BAE Systems, and engine companies as well, Callan writes. 

Larry Christensen, an export controls attorney at Miller & Chevalier, *in Washington, D.C., believes the Indian decision will have lasting implications for U.S. industry, even though he says he has not seen any proof that Indias choice was influenced by ITAR, the International Traffic in Arms Regulations that restrict exports of sensitive U.S. technology.*

The fact that an emerging power such as India would snub U.S. advanced weaponry offers further evidence that the current export control system  which dates back to the Cold War  has outlived its effectiveness, Christensen says. The U.S. government cannot repeal the laws of economics, he says. As the United States denies access to some of its best technology, it leaves a market void that, sooner or later, another country will fill. When that happens, the U.S. export control policy of denial, or policy of heavy restrictions, become ineffective for the purposes of barring potential enemies access to advanced weaponry, he says. 

*It is conceivable that India concluded that U.S. restrictions on technology sharing are not worth the hassle, Christensen suggests. Although the United States wanted India to buy its fighter jets, it was putting strings on those sales that would have curtailed Indias ability to upgrade components, software or sensors, or collaborate with other countries, he says. If India had picked a U.S. aircraft, ITAR would have "restricted them in their ability to move forward with that platform.*

On a smaller scale, *the same problem affects U.S. suppliers of less flashy products such as surveillance, law-enforcement and border protection technology, says Christensen. I know small firms that feel the pain of commercial customers saying that they like the U.S. product but they cant live with the restrictions and the overhead that goes with ITAR controls.*

The consequences for U.S. competitiveness are significant, he says. The market is changing. Other countries are developing good technology. The time has passed when only the U.S., U.K., France or Germany were viable supplies of advanced hardware, he adds. Technology is now available from Russia, China and Israel, countries that are tend to place fewer restrictions on transfers. 

Christensen points out that the Obama administration is taking meaningful steps to reforming ITAR to boost U.S. industry. I believe that there is significant movement, he says. Hundreds of government officials currently are busy redrafting regulations, he says. Its a long arduous task, and Im glad theyre taking the time to do it right.

Despite the Indian loss, U.S. arms are still hot sellers. The Pentagon is projecting arms sales to foreign buyers to exceed $46 billion in fiscal year 2011. Demand for U.S. weaponry is higher than ever, according to Richard A. Genaille Jr., deputy director of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency. DSCA currently oversees a $330 billion portfolio of foreign military sales to 220 countries and international organizations.

At an industry conference in April, Genaille discussed efforts by the administration to increase foreign military sales as a means to court allies and boost Third World countries internal security. The goal is to revamp how the U.S. government manages international arms sales so it can be more anticipatory of future needs and more responsive to foreign allies requests. 

The Obama administration, which regards weapon exports as a vehicle for bolstering the U.S. economy, believes that current methods for managing arms sales are too reactive, rather than proactive, he said. Its hard to be responsive when our system is geared to wait for a letter of request from a country and then take action.


U.S. Industry Loses Big in India: Is ITAR to Blame? - Blog

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## mikkix

India did a gr8 job by not choosing American planes,
lessons for Pakistan, the way india hit at the Us defence establishment is a gr8 article. 21st century we can hurt our enemy without war....

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## third eye

BBC News - India chooses European fighters over US rivals

*India chooses European fighters over US rivals
*

India has shortlisted two European fighters and ruled out two US rivals for a key $11bn military contract.

The Indian defence ministry picked the pan-European Eurofighter and France-based Dessault's Rafale ahead of jets made by Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

The US ambassador in India said the US was "deeply disappointed" by the news.

*President Barack Obama had personally lobbied on behalf of the US defence contractors, as had European leaders on behalf of the European jets.*

"It is confirmed Eurofighter and Rafale have been selected and the remaining four are off," said the Indian defence ministry.

The other two companies to miss out were Sweden's Saab and the Russian makers of the MiG 35.

'Political setback'

The ambassador, Timothy Roemer, said: "We are reviewing the documents received from the government of India and are respectful of the procurement process."

He added that the US "looked forward to continuing to grow and develop our defence partnership with India".

*However, some commentators suggested there could be some political fallout from the decision.*

"The Americans will be very unhappy and people who have been backing the contract will say India has not sufficiently taken into account the political relationship with the US," said former Indian foreign secretary Kanwal Sibal.

"That is a political setback for relations."

Mr Roemer announced separately that he was resigning from his post for "personal, professional and family considerations".
Big spenders

A report published last month said that India had overtaken China to become the world's largest importer of arms.

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said India accounted for 9% of all weapons imports between 2006 and 2010.

With a $32.5bn (£19.5bn) defence budget, India imports more than 70% of its arms.

The $11bn deal for 126 fighter jets is part of plan to spend $50bn over the next five years on modernising its armed forces.


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know if the Rafale would come with HMS for IAF as I read an article (admittedly 2 years old) saying Rafale had no HMS. Would it be the TOPSIGHT-I developed by Thales and Samtel and being used on MKI, TEJAS, Mig 29k, Mig 29UOG and Mirage m2k UPG if go is given, in Indian service. Or would a different HMS be offered as there was talk of the EFT's Starwars helmet, would this come with EFT or is this an option the IAF could take? And would they take it? 








+ I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but surely this decision has MASSIVE ramifications for the upgrade of IAF. Mirage 2000H? If Rafele is chosen will IAF really opt to spend $2 BILLION on their latest induction's predecessor? And what about EFT, will Mirage UPG still go ahead? Or in both cases will IAF go for more MMRCA and just phase out Mirage m2k asap?

Very interesting scenario.


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## AsianLion

Although this below holds true, a final selection between EF and Rafale for India between the two, The French Rafale will be better for Indian Air Force. Potential for Indian Navy version and a possibility to copy Rafale technology into their "indigenous" LCA, Tejas, giving a fresh air to the faltering projects. 

Nevertheless, India a wannabe Super-Power is unfortunately just a long dream not a truth, it will be realised by Bhartis in not too a distant time. the What, Why, How not.



blain2 said:


> Either platform would be a great addition for the IAF and PAF definitely have their work cut out in front of them. One thing working for Rafale is the possibility of a future induction by the IN which would allow logistics to be simplified across the IAF/IN (something that may be the case with the Mig-29 induction by the IN).


 +1, 



1000VA said:


> Saab: Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Business Wire
> Today defence and security company Saab AB (STO:SAABB) has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> 
> &#8221;We are offering India a world class next generation fighter aircraft to a &#8221; says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO at Saab.
> 
> Gripen is in service with the *Swedish, Czech Republic, Hungarian, South African and Royal Thai Air Forces. The UK Empire Test Pilots&#8217; School* (ETPS) is operating Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots worldwide.
> *Saab Press Centre*
> *+46 (0)734 180 018*
> Saabgroup.com - Defence and Security


Cheers for that official link Mr Indian, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with *" 5 " customers*, competitive price, complete transfer programme. Who should win hands down. Gripen NG AESA is due to be released soon. 

EF and Gripen NG, the FAR better choice while all 6 contenders are put together!


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## desimorty

Drop the Gripen already will you!
Its a single engine aircraft, that has yet to have its NG varient operationalized and comes with an AMERICAN engine!
How the hell is ToT going to be possible?
It is already known that. Snecma has been finalized as the partner that will finish the Kaveri 2 engine. Which will give the Tejas, supercruise.


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## AsianLion

^ ^ jatt,
Why do you think Single engine is harmful, its not. High maintainace for twin engine and it is prone to more problems and long maintainance time. AESA is already a part of the Gripen, and decently priced (that you can buy far more Gripens then only a few EFs). Now the real problem is the engine. If Indian officials not worry about kick-backs then you can easily get a Tot, including negotiating well with Americans. US is your strategic partner in any case, so whats the big deal. Request a line in the contract to licence produce the engine in India just like other things being done by HAL. 

Lastly, you are wrong to think that EuroFighter or Rafale will be giving India full ENGINE technology, no one gives that. India will only be assembling it in the end. Do you produce engine for Su 30 Mkis in india too, no they are imported from Russia, although full ToT given.

Anyways,
Gripen NG pic below:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9fNKRyQxUNw/TBgHVZOiWfI/AAAAAAAAFRM/DYeiHA75jxY/s1600/gripen_ng_front.jpg

Watch Gripen NG with new stuff(latest realese):


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## Roybot

^^^ Its too late for this "discussion" now. No commission for you from SAAB

Any chance of IAF getting both EF and Rafale?


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## AsianLion

As for Pakistan, its doing fine, JF17s stand far ahead to LCAs, Tejas, Mirages, Mig 29s and Mig Bisons. 

*** Quite importantly, whether India gets the French Rafale or not, Pakistan will still be dealing with French. Its similar to what happened when Pakistan bought its Mirages and India bought its Mirages. In point of fact, that is what will hold future for Pakistan or as a matter of fact for Indias MMRCA, The Frenchy will sell their a$$ for money to the highest bidder.

Secondly, Considering PAF will have access to Eurofighters (Saudi Typhoons), its worth contemplating why India go for EFs, Kick backs, history of corruption in such deal etc etc? 

What holds worry for Pakistan is its speedy induction of upgraded, enhanced JF17 Thunders potentially the new "JF17 Stealth Thunder - JF17 ST", further enhancements to J10s, J20 Black Eagle and quite possibly J11s (the later three are simply not upto PAF standards). Also, PAF should look to induct a squadron of Mig 35s, via indirect deals with China to Russia, quite possibly? Or have deals with the Swedes and get two to three Squadrons of Gripen NG ? Or Rather, I would like Pakistan to go for the same Indian MMRCA Rafale fighters but in just two squardons, basically to dilute any Indian surprise threat if at all it happens.  

As for China, its doing very well, it needs to rapidly introduce new technologies in its Air Force. Built sophisticated Aircrafts with cutting edge technology. Chinese need to reduce the overall size of their planes that is bigger the size, in WVR or BVR engagements, its easier to locate and hunt them. Although there are as some advantages to have large size fighters; range, payload etc etc. Fine tuning is what is required with China.

~ Adious ~


:


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## Roybot

*@ AsianUnion* Thats quite the shopping list you got there mate, How you going to pay for it(not trolling)?

Also,


> What holds worry for Pakistan is its induction of upgraded, enhanced JF17 Thunders potentially the new "JF17 Stealth Thunder - JF17 ST", further enhancements to J10s, J20 Black Eagle and quite possibly J11s *(the later three are simply not upto PAF standards).*



Are you telling me that PAF has higher standards than PLAAF?


----------



## AsianLion

roy_gourav said:


> *@ AsianUnion* Thats quite the shopping list you got there mate, How you going to pay for it(not trolling)?


I knew trollers like you would crawl and pick a line to talk about, which is gibberish to say the least.

Anyways, there is a big "Or" between the said shopping list, read my above post again, carefully. Besides, money is something Pakistan can deal with it, as its done in the past. What you should be doing is planning to attack and invade your neighbouring countries with your supposed new goodies, if you have something in you. Infact, dare to do it now. 

What Pakistan needs is a minimum defence capabilities and it knows how to do it, far better than the boastful show-off "chankiya" Indians. 



roy_gourav said:


> Are you telling me that PAF has higher standards than PLAAF?


Am telling you nothing, regarding who has more standards to whom, its about requirements. PAF or PLAAF, one human two arms, get this in your thick brain.


----------



## axisofevil

DRDO said:


> Buddy even China dnt have any thing like EF or Rafele in their inventory


 
I know Bro but their intelligence wing is top notch because it uses any source as a way to gain intel.....EF having so many partners makes it possible for leaks to slip.....I also wonder how these countries will react to India's problems via CHina and Pakistan?


----------



## Roybot

AsianUnion said:


> What Pakistan needs is a minimum defence capabilities and it knows how to do it, far better than the boastful show-off "chankiya" Indians.



Thats exactly India's goal too. Achieving minimum deterrence against the combined strength of PAF and PLAAF. Attacking and failing is Pakistan's forte not India's.



AsianUnion said:


> Am telling you nothing, regarding who has more standards to whom, its about requirements. PAF or PLAAF, one human two arms, get this in your thick brain.



Yeah too bad that human body is not ambidextrous. While PLAAF is the dominant right hand which does all the work, while PAF is just the left hand there to do the dirty work. Now save me your jingoism.

You said that J-10, J-11 and even J-20 was not upto PAF's standard. I don't see the thought process here, so China makes the super awesome JF-17 for Pakistan and doesn't induct any in its own air force, but instead decides to induct loads of "sub-standard" J-10 and J-11's? 

I mean I understand patriotism, but this is just talking sh*t.

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## Roby

Eurofighter is catching up in the poll....


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## koushik

500 said:


> Question which missiles Rafale will use if selected: MICA? AMRAAM? R-77? Which targeting pod - Damocles, Litening III?


 
The rafale will use the Damocles Designating Pod for delivering PGMs like Paveway-2/3 LGB Kits,AS-30L Laser guided missile.for air to air engagements it will use Meteor to deal with BVR Threats,Mica for Low-to-Medium range threats and maybe the MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM for WVR or Dogfight combats.Mr.kartik sri what do u say?


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## RayBan

xyz,.,.adm


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## RayBan

Roby said:


> Eurofighter is catching up in the poll....


 
hmmm! Pakistanis voting for eurofighter as they fear facing mighty Rafael ?


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## indushek

I am happy that at last this decision is made atleast half i mean...

I joined this forum to get updated news on this issue. I hope the downselect is faster.

I am going with rafaele. I was afraid i would get old by the time it happened.

I am thankful to Spark, Jha , Sancho Prateek Karthik and others for posting latest news on this competition.

So happy today.


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## Skull and Bones

RayBan said:


> hmmm! Pakistanis voting for eurofighter as they fear facing mighty Rafael ?


 
I'm an Indian, and i voted for Eurofighter Typhoon. Is that weird?


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## Pak_Sher

RayBan said:


> hmmm! Pakistanis voting for eurofighter as they fear facing mighty Rafael ?


 
Future wars aircrafts will hardly face each other, PAF is focusing on BVRs on F-16s, JF-17s, Mirages IIIs, Mirage Vs, F-7s and the shortly coming J-10s.


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## Skull and Bones

Pak_Sher said:


> Future wars aircrafts will hardly face each other, PAF is focusing on BVRs on F-16s, JF-17s, Mirages IIIs, Mirage Vs, F-7s and the shortly coming J-10s.


 
Ain't you guys going to retire old F-7s and Mirage-IIIs soon?


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## AsianLion

roy_gourav said:


> Thats exactly India's goal too. Achieving minimum deterrence against the combined strength of PAF and PLAAF. Attacking and failing is Pakistan's forte not India's.
> 
> -----
> Yeah too bad that human body is not ambidextrous. While PLAAF is the dominant right hand which does all the work, while PAF is just the left hand there to do the dirty work. Now save me your jingoism.
> 
> You said that J-10, J-11 and even J-20 was not upto PAF's standard. I don't see the thought process here, so China makes the super awesome JF-17 for Pakistan and doesn't induct any in its own air force, but instead decides to induct loads of "sub-standard" J-10 and J-11's?
> 
> I mean I understand patriotism, but this is just talking sh*t.


 
You donot know penny about Pakistan and China relationship, and the history to it, while coming on a Pakistani Forum from a rat hole, telling us what is the alliance between the two of our countries. Let me tell you, India's retardly offensive greedy regional power actions are one of the most important factors if not the only one. Further, India's lust to poke nose in others affairs to try to influence the region under its belly is something you would not class as "attacking" rather your supposed doctrine of "minimum deterrance". You suck, when you lie plainly.

Infact, if it hadn't been the case, and India acted like a nice puppy, China would have been India's best mate than Pakistan. Unfortunately, you lack the basic ingredients to remain a peaceful entity. Further, the aggressive retard India(Minimum deterrence goal) would not have wars with China (1962) and Pakistan(three+), or the usual act of being a macho-man of Asia bullying the Nepalis, Bengladeshis, Srilankans and on and on. India is all innocent, infact the most peaceful and most victimised country. 

It was not Pakistan who blew up the Nuclear bombs first, it is not Pakistan who purchases hi-fi lethal equipment first in the region, it is not PAF who weans about every purchase IAF makes, infact the later one tries to go further to block purchases. Its not PAF who cries out loud by making videos like the "IAF loosing edge over PAF".

It was IAF the "attacker" and the "aggressor" which was shot twice by ANZA missiles capturing its pilots during the Kargil War(the latest war). PAF was never used inside Indian territory. 

As I said before that human body has got nothing to do with your insignificant mosquito bites, the PAF and PLAAF the two arms are in hand in hand "mincing the mosquitoes"...enuff said.

Further, I would class "standards" as PAF "requirements" or "criterion", the J10s or J11s or the newly built J20s in PLAAF are not what PAF wants, IMO, specific upgrades are necessary to meet its criterion. And am in no position to discuss that at the moment.

What would you say, when China offered her J7s, J8s, J11s, J10 to sale and Pakistan has not accepted them and rather gone for the JF17s, would you class J7s, J8s as your stupid word "sub-standards". Or the latest 36 J10s deal offered to Pakistan were put on hold, while Pakistan is going ahead with the JF17s and the new joint venture of stealth ingredient "JF17 Stealth Thunder". Spare me your manipulation man.

Pakistan and China are here to stay, work together and as I said one human, two arms, hand in hand.


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## Zeluvaa

AsianUnion said:


> What holds worry for Pakistan is its speedy induction of upgraded, enhanced JF17 Thunders potentially the new "JF17 Stealth Thunder - JF17 ST", further enhancements to J10s, J20 Black Eagle and quite possibly J11s (the later three are simply not upto PAF standards).



Did he just say that the J-20, a 5th generation fighter, is not up to PAF standards??? 

What standards are you talking about buddy? You don't even have a 5th gen jet or plans to make one nor acquire one this decade. 





AsianUnion said:


> As for Pakistan, its doing fine, JF17s stand far ahead to LCAs, Tejas, Mirages, Mig 29s and Mig Bisons.



Another gem! BTW LCA led to Tejas, so they are technically the same.




AsianUnion said:


> Also, PAF should look to induct a squadron of Mig 35s, via indirect deals with China to Russia, quite possibly? Or have deals with the Swedes and get two to three Squadrons of Gripen NG ? Or Rather, I would like Pakistan to go for the same Indian MMRCA Rafale fighters but in just two squardons, basically to dilute any Indian surprise threat if at all it happens.


 

Quite an ambitious list we have here, don't we?

When we are dreaming, why not dream big? might as well add F-22 and B-2 to the list. 


Anyways on topic, I hope EF gets selected, I like it over Rafale!

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## Black Widow

> hmmm! Pakistanis voting for eurofighter as they fear facing mighty Rafael ?
> Original Post By RayBan




Illogical question: MMRCA is more focused on Ground attack.. Rafel has better ground attack capabilities,... Once you neutralize enemy fighter planes (by Air superiority fighter), you need to do ground bombing, to destroy SAMs/Dams/bridge/factory... Air superiority fighter can't do it.. so we need a fighter with great ability to do ground bombing.... MMRCA was initially thought to fits in this category..




Pak_Sher said:


> Future wars aircrafts will hardly face each other, PAF is focusing on BVRs on F-16s, JF-17s, Mirages IIIs, Mirage Vs, F-7s and the shortly coming J-10s.


 
You are living in dreams, Future Aircraft definitely face each other, in WVR..there is no guarantee that BVR missiles will bring down same generation planes... As my friend mention here, I don see future for M-III and F7, They need to retire withing 5 or 10 years.. These will be replace by FC1.. FC1 was made to replace it.. J10 will replace and complement F16....

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## Black Widow

AsianUnion said:


> You donot know penny about Pakistan and China relationship, and the history to it, while coming on a Pakistani Forum from a rat hole, telling us what is the alliance between the two of our countries. Let me tell you, India's retardly offensive greedy regional power actions are one of the most important factors if not the only one. Further, India's lust to poke nose in others affairs to try to influence the region under its belly is something you would not class as "attacking" rather your supposed doctrine of "minimum deterrance". You suck, when you lie plainly.
> 
> Infact, if it hadn't been the case, and India acted like a nice puppy, China would have been India's best mate than Pakistan. Unfortunately, you lack the basic ingredients to remain a peaceful entity. Further, the aggressive retard India(Minimum deterrence goal) would not have wars with China (1962) and Pakistan(three+), or the usual act of being a macho-man of Asia bullying the Nepalis, Bengladeshis, Srilankans and on and on. India is all innocent, infact the most peaceful and most victimised country.
> 
> It was not Pakistan who blew up the Nuclear bombs first, it is not Pakistan who purchases hi-fi lethal equipment first in the region, it is not PAF who weans about every purchase IAF makes, infact the later one tries to go further to block purchases. Its not PAF who cries out loud by making videos like the "IAF loosing edge over PAF".
> 
> It was IAF the "attacker" and the "aggressor" which was shot twice by ANZA missiles capturing its pilots during the Kargil War(the latest war). PAF was never used inside Indian territory.
> 
> As I said before that human body has got nothing to do with your insignificant mosquito bites, the PAF and PLAAF the two arms are in hand in hand "mincing the mosquitoes"...enuff said.
> 
> Further, I would class "standards" as PAF "requirements" or "criterion", the J10s or J11s or the newly built J20s in PLAAF are not what PAF wants, IMO, specific upgrades are necessary to meet its criterion. And am in no position to discuss that at the moment.
> 
> What would you say, when China offered her J7s, J8s, J11s, J10 to sale and Pakistan has not accepted them and rather gone for the JF17s, would you class J7s, J8s as your stupid word "sub-standards". Or the latest 36 J10s deal offered to Pakistan were put on hold, while Pakistan is going ahead with the JF17s and the new joint venture of stealth ingredient "JF17 Stealth Thunder". Spare me your manipulation man.
> 
> Pakistan and China are here to stay, work together and as I said one human, two arms, hand in hand.


 
 Pathetic... full of lies... We can discuss pak-sino relation and Indian aggression in other thread, better use this thread for MMRCA discussion..


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## koushik

Mr.Asian Union You say that china and pak are working ahead with JF-17 and are creating JF-17 stealth thunder and I think the Next project would be an Invisible J-10 which be 10th generation and we wont be able anythng about it.I am damn sure it is you and not the pakistani and chinese governments who will be funding for the JF-17 Stealth Thunder and Invisible J-10 Super Fighter.what a hilarious sino-pak partnership.


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## AsianLion

Zeluvaa said:


> Did he just say that the J-20, a 5th generation fighter, is not up to PAF standards???
> 
> What standards are you talking about buddy? You don't even have a 5th gen jet or plans to make one nor acquire one this decade.



And the snake comes to bite you. Okay, since you want classification, I would with regards to J20, a 5th Generation fighter say that it is above-standard that is PAF donot want it (at the moment) because it has to look if it can afford, induct in larger numbers, and effectively maintain. Plus PAF is already going through large modernization plans, so it is not PAF's requirement to have a new fighter jet at the moment, Happy.

Read post above, "number #819" to be able to get more idea.


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## koushik

Mr.Asian Union You say that china and pak are working ahead with JF-17 and are creating JF-17 stealth thunder and I think the Next project would be an Invisible J-10 which be a 10th generation fighter and we wont be able to do anythng about it.I am damn sure it is you and not the pakistani and chinese governments who will be funding for the JF-17 Stealth Thunder and Invisible J-10 Super Fighter.keep up the good work.but still india zindabaad.

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## rajusri

AsianUnion said:


> Pakistan and China are here to stay, work together and as I said one human, two arms, hand in hand.



 What kind of person that may be? You said something same about US 25 years back when they supplied you lots of weapons. lol


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## luckyyy

Black Widow said:


> Illogical question: MMRCA is more focused on Ground attack.. Rafel has better ground attack capabilities,... Once you neutralize enemy fighter planes (by Air superiority fighter), you need to do ground bombing, to destroy SAMs/Dams/bridge/factory... Air superiority fighter can't do it.. so we need a fighter with great ability to do ground bombing.... MMRCA was initially thought to fits in this category..



british preffers the air superiority version of EF , german preffers the ground attack version...
it was the german EF to take part in ground attack trails in MMRCA..

but germany decided not to take part in libya , otherwise you would get a look at the ground attack capabilities of the EF as well...


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## Black Widow

luckyyy said:


> british preffers the air superiority version of EF , german preffers the ground attack version...
> it was the german EF to take part in ground attack trails in MMRCA..
> 
> but germany decided not to take part in libya , otherwise you would get a look at the ground attack capabilities of the EF as well...


 
Agree.... I also like EFT to be in Indian inventory... To counter chinies threat We need it. 2 squadron EFT air superiority fighter, rest for Ground attack role..


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## Agnostic_Indian

i am so happy today to know the news..that the americans are out..i don't mind eurofighter or rafale..i like both.


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## koushik

AsianUnion said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/104177-jf-17-stealth-new-pak-china-joint-venutre.html
> 
> enuff said.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> 
> 
> Donot post Wiki-Sh*t please, its distorted, I just changed it again. Go Check it. Your Jets were shot inside Pakistani territory with pilots as POWs captured during Kargil War and that is a FACT.
> 
> Oh Doggy knows the doggy language, I donot need to steep to your level but enough to say Pakistan and China are one human, with two arms, hand in hand. That is quite different to your doggy status, and hard for a non-human to understand.
> 
> What is really India to Americans, British and Europeans ? usable whore, a monkey --->  against Pakistan & China.
> 
> Besides, it was your co-Indian who changed the topic not me. You too recommended to read * post # 819*.


 
well carry on with your JF-17 Stealth and i hope that it really flies bcoz u will need magnanimous modifications to bring it to a proper stealth standard but remember that it would face the likes of PAK FA and FGFA when it enters service and I am not at all worried about this Stealth JF-17.Anyways lets bury the hatchet and discuss somethng useful.Bro can you give some info about any upgrades on Eurofighter for ground attacks?


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## Markus

This UPA govt has shown that it definitely shown "some" guts by ignoring the American pressure.

Kudos to Manmohaniya and company.

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## koushik

AsianUnion said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/104177-jf-17-stealth-new-pak-china-joint-venutre.html
> 
> enuff said.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment!
> 
> 
> 
> Donot post Wiki-Sh*t please, its distorted, I just changed it again. Go Check it. Your Jets were shot inside Pakistani territory with pilots as POWs captured during Kargil War and that is a FACT.
> 
> Oh Doggy knows the doggy language, I donot need to steep to your level but enough to say Pakistan and China are one human, with two arms, hand in hand. That is quite different to your doggy status, and hard for a non-human to understand.
> 
> What is really India to Americans, British and Europeans ? usable whore, a monkey --->  against Pakistan & China.
> 
> Besides, it was your co-Indian who changed the topic not me. You too recommended to read * post # 819*.


 
well carry on with your JF-17 Stealth and i hope that it really flies bcoz u will need magnanimous modifications to bring it to a proper stealth standard but remember that it would face the likes of PAK FA and FGFA when it enters service and I am not at all worried about this Stealth JF-17.Anyways lets bury the hatchet and discuss somethng useful.Bro can you give some info about any upgrades on Eurofighter for ground attacks?

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## tushar

> british preffers the air superiority version of EF , german preffers the ground attack version...
> it was the german EF to take part in ground attack trails in MMRCA..
> 
> but germany decided not to take part in libya , otherwise you would get a look at the ground attack capabilities of the EF as well...


I thought only Eurofighters latest version Tranche 3 has multi role features (including A2G features).....??? Which i think has not entered service(correct me if i am wrong)
But i think the version offered to India has features from both these aircrafts because according to IAF's requirement we needed a multi role aircraft....now whatever they claim they have to provide those features to us according to the deal...including aesa and TVC (if India opt for it).


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## rajusri

AsianUnion said:


> Oops, thankyou for posting this picture to confirm your animal instincts but Indian. Honestly, this picture fits India 100%.


We can see from the photo what America think about you. 

washington times 








> Now, consider todays date 29-April-2011, America has been pretty much defeated, its given a date to with-draw "July 2011" that is it is done, used, abused and now running away. So honestly, does this picture hold any value ? Come on be straight forward.



 America defeated? Just few days back drone attack killed 25 pakistanis. 



> I know India the new monkey whore will do all for US, Brits, Israelis and Europeans....like a nice paid whore, ---->  against the victors Pakistan and China.


The photo depicts who is the monkey whore and why. You take military aid from America by letting them using your land as base to kill your own people. You cannot even defend your self. Now China! You cannot talk about yourself alone always need a master. 



> Where is India going from Afghanistan ?


Baluchistan.

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## mautkimaut

rajusri said:


> What kind of person that may be? You said something same about US 25 years back when they supplied you lots of weapons. lol


 
SAhi main one human two arms hai .. ek khane ke kaam aata hai doosra dhone ke...

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## lepziboy

please stop fighting and comparing lets just be happy about the news


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## rajusri

mautkimaut said:


> SAhi main one human two arms hai .. ek khane ke kaam aata hai doosra dhone ke...


 
hehe 

they know pretty much they cannot do anything alone so always need someone to give them free weapons and aid. it was US now it is china.

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## Whiplash

Skull and Bones said:


> Wow
> 
> EFT is really catching on the poll


 
I gave it a vote too. Tell me? Aren't you concerned about the fact that neither has a fully functional AESA? I mean the more the delayed the procurement the more the obsolete it is


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## KS

Whiplash said:


> I gave it a vote too. Tell me? Aren't you concerned about the fact that neither has a fully functional AESA? I mean the more the delayed the procurement the more the obsolete it is


 
RBE2 AA is operational and has entered serial production.


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## Skull and Bones

Whiplash said:


> I gave it a vote too. Tell me? Aren't you concerned about the fact that neither has a fully functional AESA? I mean the more the delayed the procurement the more the obsolete it is


 
Rafale will be equipped with AESA radars from 2012, so if goes with it, then we will receive Rafale with operational AESA radar. 

And EFT was successfully tested with Caesar AESA radar. So significant development is expected in coming months.


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## Bang Galore

*Rafale, Typhoon score on merit*

Just why has the Indian Air Force (IAF) short-listed the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon ahead of four other contenders, including the US F-16 and F/A-18 fighters, for the Rs 42, 000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract?

The down selection at the end of a prolonged evaluation of the six fighter jets was evidently based on the fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon were the most modern airframes and better equipped compared to F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 IN of the US, MiG-35 of Russia, and JAS-39 Gripen of Sweden.

The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.

*&#8220;Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,&#8221; sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.*

*The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.*

Interestingly, all six fighters were in the race till April 17, the deadline for submission of modified offset proposals. The representatives of these firms were informed of the Union government&#8217;s decision to relax the offset policy mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP).

The original rider that half the value of the $ 10.5 billion contract be passed on to domestic firms was modified, fixing it at 30 per cent of the deal. &#8220;We were all expecting a word on extension of commercial proposals on the last day, April 28, but got to know that only Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter have been invited for discussions,&#8221; said a representative of Saab AB.

*Those who lost out have made it known that they would raise issues concerning the price and other attributes of Rafale and Typhoon. The two aircraft are said to be the highest priced among those in the contest when looked at from a unit price point of view. Second, the Eurofighter&#8217;s AESA radar is still under development. Only the two US fighters have operational AESA radars on them.*

If India finally picks the Rafale, it would be only the second air force after the French Air Force to induct these fighters into its fleet.

India has asked Dassault SA and Eurofighter GmbH to hold their price bids until the end of the year. The deal is expected to be signed by March 2012.

_*The Final Two*_

*Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; Germany/Britain/Italy/Spain

Dassault Rafale -- France*

*Out of the contest*

Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN &#8211; USA

Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet &#8211; USA

SAAB&#8217;s Gripen JAS-39 &#8211; Sweden

Mikoyan-Gureywich&#8217;s MiG-35 &#8211; Russia

Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle


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## Skull and Bones

can anyone throw some light on the number of T/R modules on these radars?


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## Whiplash

Skull and Bones said:


> Rafale will be equipped with AESA radars from 2012, so if goes with it, then we will receive Rafale with operational AESA radar.
> 
> And EFT was successfully tested with Caesar AESA radar. So significant development is expected in coming months.


 
The super hornet has been operational with an AESA radar for years. By those standards neither of these are particularly 'ready'


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## tushar

> Forget the PDF poll.
> 
> There are many press reports outside that clearly mention that EFT followed closely by Rafale came close to IAF specifications.
> 
> Thats pretty easy to understand that currently EFT is at the number one rank and Rafale is at number two.


Its just speculation....According to official IAF report IAF never ranked the participants....they just gave the score according to their performance and never sum up to get a final ranking....
I seriously doubt that EF beat Rafale in the tests....EF offerred to India is definitely good but that version is not ready yet,...so they fielded the version which was ready and its not better than Rafale....Rafale would have beateen EF in many aspects and the one in which it must be behind, it would still be closer to EF....in short Rafale is the only multi-role fighter in the contest with one of the best avionics....


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## KS

SpArK said:


> U.S. Industry Loses Big in India: Is ITAR to Blame? - Blog


 
It is actually good that the US defence contractors and the analysts , in addition to blaming India are also looking inwards towards their own time-expired export control laws.

This thinking will make sure that the Export control laws,Intrusive agreements,denial of critical technology were the key causes of the Teens being rejected and more this thinking in US the less damage to Indo-US relations which is very important for both India and US in the coming century.


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## KS

koushik said:


> The rafale will use the Damocles Designating Pod for delivering PGMs like Paveway-2/3 LGB Kits,AS-30L Laser guided missile.for air to air engagements it will use Meteor to deal with BVR Threats,Mica for Low-to-Medium range threats and maybe the MBDA *AIM-132 ASRAAM for WVR or Dogfight combats*.Mr.kartik sri what do u say?


 
I guess they are developing the Magic II for that - WVR fights.



Skull and Bones said:


> Rafale will be equipped with AESA radars from 2012, so if goes with it, then we will receive Rafale with operational AESA radar.
> 
> And EFT was successfully tested with *Caesar* AESA radar. So significant development is expected in coming months.


 
Mate its Captor, not Ceasar



Skull and Bones said:


> can anyone throw some light on the number of T/R modules on these radars?


 
RBE2 AA - 850, Captor - 1425



> *&#8220;Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, *used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,&#8221; sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

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## Laughing_soldier

> Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.


rafale AESA radar


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## Laughing_soldier




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## koushik

Skull and Bones said:


> can anyone throw some light on the number of T/R modules on these radars?


 CAESAR has 1500 T/R Modules and RBE2 AA AESA Radar has 850 T/R Modules.


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## jha

Karthic Sri said:


> I guess they are developing the Magic II for that - WVR fights.
> 
> 
> 
> *Mate its Captor, not Ceasar*
> 
> 
> 
> RBE2 AA - 850, Captor - 1425


 

NOPE..The AESA variant of CAPTOR is called CEASER or, CAPTOR-E AESA RADAR ...
CAPTOR is the name of present radar on EF..


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## Laughing_soldier

rafale


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## SpArK




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## below_freezing

Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.

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## KS

koushik said:


> Both the CAESAR and RBE2 AA AESA Radar have 1500-2000 T/R Modules.


 

*The picture is of RBE2 AA on Rafale.*


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## All-Green

SpArK said:


> Rafale's gonna win... considering the Saudi factor.


 
That makes sense but i think even strategically the EF is made a bit redundant due to MKIs.
Plus the French are really desperate to get the Omni Role project rolling, will be offering more goodies.

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## SpArK

What ever the reasons EF will be a big blunder.... politically and strategically ..


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## blackops

au plzzzz leave this thread


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## SQ8

Come to think of it.. the french may even offer a buy back option with the Rafale's for the M2K's.. 
would be a great deal come to think of it.

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## shree835

below_freezing said:


> Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.


 
We Indians are not Intrested into China Item.


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## Markus

below_freezing said:


> Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.


 
Humor aside.

This is the last 4.5Gplane acquisition by India.

WIth PAK FA moving with high speed forward, India will order only more MKI's and MMRCA in addition to LCA and MCA to keep the ball rolling.

AMerican dreams of selling a fighter to India are buried forever.

I still feel US should have had fielded F15 instead of F16 in MMRCA.

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## Bang Galore

SpArK said:


> What ever the reasons EF will be a big blunder.... politically and strategically ..


 
Err.. if politics & strategic reasoning was being done, you can be sure it wouldn't have been any of these two aircraft winning. I think Anthony is planning to go by the book on this one. Unless the French really up their offer, they are pretty much done for. I have a feeling that as Santro said which was also indirectly alluded to in the article I posted, a buyback offer for the M2k's may end up being on the plate. Would be pretty hard for the European consortium to beat that.


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## Contract Killer

Uncle Sam has started showing his true color............

Real face of Uncle will come out in few days..


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> What ever the reasons EF will be a big blunder.... politically and strategically ..


 
Italy (one of the countries involved with EF) had opposed India's demand of getting a permanent UNSC seat.

Who knows, the Indian govt. is strategizing with the UNSC in mind.

We have given enough orders to the US and many more are in pipeline, the attack helicopter being one of them.

I am sure its not just technical evaluation, GoI is playing games at a much higher level.

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## Laughing_soldier




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## SpArK

Markus said:


> Italy (one of the countries involved with EF) had opposed India's demand of getting a permanent UNSC seat.
> 
> Who knows, the Indian govt. is strategizing with the UNSC in mind.
> 
> We have given enough orders to the US and many more are in pipeline, the attack helicopter being one of them.
> 
> I am sure its not just technical evaluation, GoI is playing games at a much higher level.


 


We cant do a think about changing their mind over this .Also nothing can be done politically with Spain too.. Germany will be gunning against various issues if there is a political change...

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## Markus

SpArK said:


> We cant do a think about changing their mind over this .Also nothing can be done politically with Spain too.. Germany will be gunning against various issues if there is a political change...


 
This is all a bargaining chip.

By shortlisting EF, India will up the ante with EF promoter countries, back room bargaining and negotiations will go big time (and no, I am not talking of pricing negotiations).

One hand give, One hand take.

If India ever faces opposition from entering UNSC it will come only from some within EU.

Dont be surprised if European nations back India in full strength in the coming years.


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## SpArK

Bang Galore said:


> Err.. if politics & strategic reasoning was being done, you can be sure it wouldn't have been any of these two aircraft winning. I think Anthony is planning to go by the book on this one. Unless the French really up their offer, they are pretty much done for. I have a feeling that as Santro said which was also indirectly alluded to in the article I posted,* a buyback offer for the M2k's* may end up being on the plate. Would be pretty hard for the European consortium to beat that.


 
I have been advocating that for some time. If that is the case, we will be seeing a few Rafale's much earlier than expected.


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## Markus

France has already offered 40 Rafales on fast track for our SFC.


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## axisofevil

below_freezing said:


> Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.


 


Sure hope as long as there is TOT...


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> This is all a bargaining chip.
> 
> By shortlisting EF, India will up the ante with EF promoter countries, back room bargaining and negotiations will go big time (and no, I am not talking of pricing negotiations).
> 
> One hand give, One hand take.
> 
> If India ever faces opposition from entering UNSC it will come only from some within EU.
> 
> Dont be surprised if European nations back India in full strength in the coming years.




You cant bargain against a group of companies. Germany and UK are the ones who are acting like the owners of the consortium. It will be a big surprise if ever Italy changes its stance on a few issues.. They have been also uttering the "K" word recently..


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## axisofevil

If India chooses Rafale......Brazil may follow....I hope India uses this as leverage on France. It shoal deb given access to cutting edge research and weapons. It could prove to be a wonderful future for both countries.....I just hope France doesn't stab us in time of need. I KNOW THE US WOULDN;T


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> You cant bargain against a group of companies. Germany and UK are the ones who are acting like the owners of the consortium. It will be a big surprise if ever Italy changes its stance on a few issues.. They have been also uttering the "K" word recently..


 
Massive orders like MMRCA where there is a provision to increase number of planes from 126 to 200 or even 260 can be nothing but a big bargaining chip.

Infact I will not be surprised if tomorrow we come to know that GoI purposely delayed this entire process so that it can bargain with all concerned parties on proper terms.

We are not giving away 12 billion for nothing buddy.


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## Ammyy

Eurofighter Typhoon 60 46.88%
Dassault Rafale 68 53.13%


 


Wind is changing in the favor of EF


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> Massive orders like MMRCA where there is a provision to increase number of planes from 126 to 200 or even 260 can be nothing but a big bargaining chip.
> 
> Infact I will not be surprised if tomorrow we come to know that GoI purposely delayed this entire process so that it can bargain with all concerned parties on proper terms.
> 
> We are not giving away 12 billion for nothing buddy.


 
Lets hope so, otherwise EF consortium will be having trouble a plenty... They might even scrap their own plans and go ahead with F-35 , as these countries have got no other 5th gen alternatives.


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## Markus

DRDO said:


> Eurofighter Typhoon 60 46.88%
> Dassault Rafale 68 53.13%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wind is changing in the favor of EF


 
Is Indian MoD following PDF poll too?


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## Ammyy

Markus said:


> Is Indian MoD following PDF poll too?


 
you never know 

BTW I am talking about PDF only


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## mautkimaut

below_freezing said:


> Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.


 
IF China - India relations remain good I see no reason why it cant.There would be a competition though so make sure that your plane is better than International competition

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## Markus

SpArK said:


> Lets hope so, otherwise EF consortium will be having trouble a plenty... They might even scrap their own plans and go ahead with F-35 , as these countries have got no other 5th gen alternatives.


 
Naah, thats too overstretched.

They know very well the impact that 12 billion dollars can have on the entire Typhoon program.

If India selects EF, other countries might pour in to.

MMRAC is make or break for both Rafale and TYphoon.

The company that shows flexibility now will reap the awards later.


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## luckyyy

all you people will be just be surprised to see at end that MMRCA is a pure business deal and HAL swaping equity with the winner in a manner to get a voting rights in the matter of intrests...
all these talk of back door bargain , additional offering and UNSC will be just for funboys....it will be a pure business style deal ( under company law ) .....
german DASA will be offloading 7.5% out of 15% of their holding in EADS-DASA EF consortum to HAL and HAL giving a equal equity share to DASA.....a pure win-win situation in busness term...


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> Naah, thats too overstretched.
> 
> They know very well the impact that 12 billion dollars can have on the entire Typhoon program.
> 
> If India selects EF, other countries might pour in to.
> 
> MMRAC is make or break for both Rafale and TYphoon.
> 
> The company that shows flexibility now will reap the awards later.


 
I dont think Rafale is that vulnerable... They dont have any other alternate plans.. sale or no sale they will keep on imporving the fighters for their own use.. If they get India and Brail, its brilliant, the fighter evolve more into a true one.

Also i am wary of the Saudi connection. All the tactics and technicals known to Saudi regarding EF will surely be passed to adversaries... so it takes away the technical superiority .


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> I dont think Rafale is that vulnerable... They dont have any other alternate plans.. sale or no sale they will keep on imporving the fighters for their own use.. If they get India and Brail, its brilliant, the fighter evolve more into a true one.
> 
> Also i am wary of the Saudi connection. All the tactics and technicals known to Saudi regarding EF will surely be passed to adversaries... so it takes away the technical superiority .


 
12 billion dollars is no small amount, without it they may have to arrange money from outside for further development.

ALso, If India rejects Rafale then it may impact Brazil too. Rafale has no foreign customer.

One deal as big as MMRCA can change the plane's fortunes for once and for all.


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> 12 billion dollars is no small amount, without it they may have to arrange money from outside for further development.
> 
> ALso, If India rejects Rafale then it may impact Brazil too. Rafale has no foreign customer.
> 
> One deal as big as MMRCA can change the plane's fortunes for once and for all.


 
As far as I know most development planned has been completed including the AESA . The engine variants are being done is maybe that needs a few million spending. 

Maybe Sancho can explain regarding the status of each of the components. 
Most of the weapons have been integrated in Rafale and then rest ordered including Meteor.
But for EF, funding is still required on making it a true Multi role.


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> As far as I know most development planned has been completed including the AESA . The engine variants are being done is maybe that needs a few million spending.
> 
> Maybe Sancho can explain regarding the status of each of the components.
> Most of the weapons have been integrated in Rafale and then rest ordered including Meteor.
> But for EF, funding is still required on making it a true Multi role.


 
Status of AESA by Thales ????? - still in development.

But the point is that without foreign customers its not gonna make money. It cannot thrive on French orders alone, surely?

India or Brazil, any one will do for them but then Indian order is far more bigger than the Brazilian one.

Its hard cash and how much of it at the end of the day is the only thing that concerns the promoters of the both the companies.

Bigger the order, more the money at their disposal, more the recognition, more sales, better pipeline, more growth.


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## Bang Galore

SpArK said:


> I dont think Rafale is that vulnerable... They dont have any other alternate plans.. sale or no sale they will keep on imporving the fighters for their own use.. If they get India and Brail, its brilliant, the fighter evolve more into a true one.
> .


 

Both these manufacturers are vulnerable. If India doesn't pick Rafale, it is pretty much curtains for that project. The French are finding & will find it difficult to improve on that platform without large numbers. The EF is no better, most of those countries are going to be cutting their defence budgets & will find it next to impossible to fight off the F-35's advance. Pretty much the end of the road then. Feel saddest for the Gripen folks, they had a great plane but were fighting in a different class. That would have & should have made the numbers for the IAF as a light fighter but HAL should have looked to work with them earlier in the LCA project. Pretty much end of the road for them too, I think.


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## KS

axisofevil said:


> Sure hope as long as there is TOT...


 
J-11 is a licence version of Su-27.

We can get the same and more ToT from the Russkies itself.



SpArK said:


> I dont think Rafale is that vulnerable... They dont have any other alternate plans.. sale or no sale they will keep on imporving the fighters for their own use.. If they get India and Brail, its brilliant, the fighter evolve more into a true one.
> 
> Also i am wary of the Saudi connection. *All the tactics and technicals known to Saudi regarding EF will surely be passed to adversaries*... so it takes away the technical superiority .


 
I will not be surprised if the Saudis even outsource the flying of their planes to PAF pilots.After all they are Saudies


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## axisofevil

AsianUnion said:


> You donot know penny about Pakistan and China relationship, and the history to it, while coming on a Pakistani Forum from a rat hole, telling us what is the alliance between the two of our countries. Let me tell you, India's retardly offensive greedy regional power actions are one of the most important factors if not the only one. Further, India's lust to poke nose in others affairs to try to influence the region under its belly is something you would not class as "attacking" rather your supposed doctrine of "minimum deterrance". You suck, when you lie plainly.
> 
> Infact, if it hadn't been the case, and India acted like a nice puppy, China would have been India's best mate than Pakistan. Unfortunately, you lack the basic ingredients to remain a peaceful entity. Further, the aggressive retard India(Minimum deterrence goal) would not have wars with China (1962) and Pakistan(three+), or the usual act of being a macho-man of Asia bullying the Nepalis, Bengladeshis, Srilankans and on and on. India is all innocent, infact the most peaceful and most victimised country.
> 
> It was not Pakistan who blew up the Nuclear bombs first, it is not Pakistan who purchases hi-fi lethal equipment first in the region, it is not PAF who weans about every purchase IAF makes, infact the later one tries to go further to block purchases. Its not PAF who cries out loud by making videos like the "IAF loosing edge over PAF".
> 
> It was IAF the "attacker" and the "aggressor" which was shot twice by ANZA missiles capturing its pilots during the Kargil War(the latest war). PAF was never used inside Indian territory.
> 
> As I said before that human body has got nothing to do with your insignificant mosquito bites, the PAF and PLAAF the two arms are in hand in hand "mincing the mosquitoes"...enuff said.
> 
> Further, I would class "standards" as PAF "requirements" or "criterion", the J10s or J11s or the newly built J20s in PLAAF are not what PAF wants, IMO, specific upgrades are necessary to meet its criterion. And am in no position to discuss that at the moment.
> 
> What would you say, when China offered her J7s, J8s, J11s, J10 to sale and Pakistan has not accepted them and rather gone for the JF17s, would you class J7s, J8s as your stupid word "sub-standards". Or the latest 36 J10s deal offered to Pakistan were put on hold, while Pakistan is going ahead with the JF17s and the new joint venture of stealth ingredient "JF17 Stealth Thunder". Spare me your manipulation man.
> 
> Pakistan and China are here to stay, work together and as I said one human, two arms, hand in hand.





DUDE YOU SOUND SO BRAINWASHED ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY.....get out of the Madrassa

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## koushik

The Eurofighter also has a good ground attack capability.The typhoon currently uses the LITENING-3 Laser Designating Pod.it is also equipped with Paveway-IV 500kg Laser Guided Bombs and the Enhanced Paveway EGBU-16 1000kg Laser Guided Bombs.From 2014 it will be equipped with MBDA Storm Shadow Stand Off Cruise Missile and Brimstone ATGM.I think also the MBDA ALARM Anti Radiation Missile can be launched.So it is also as great as Rafale.


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## KS

Markus said:


> Status of AESA by Thales ????? - still in development.


 


> With the AESA RBE2&#8217;s performance now validated, in line with the contract schedule, *Thales will begin series production of equipment *for installation on the aircraft under Tranche 4 of the Rafale programme.



Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group



Bang Galore said:


> Feel saddest for the Gripen folks, they had a great plane but were fighting in a different class. That would have & should have made the numbers for the IAF as a light fighter but HAL should have looked to work with them earlier in the LCA project. Pretty much end of the road for them too, I think.


 
I will not be surprised if the TATA's buy some equity into the SAAB group now.

It would do wonders for the Indian Aerospace industry.


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## justanobserver

My favorite Eurofighter pic

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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group
> 
> 
> 
> I will not be surprised if the TATA's buy some equity into the SAAB group now.
> 
> It would do wonders for the Indian Aerospace industry.


 
Hmmm, so AESA available for Tranche 4 that is 2013 that is even more perfect and is inline with expected Indian productions dates.


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## KS

Markus said:


> Hmmm, so AESA available for Tranche 4 that is 2013 that is even more perfect and is inline with expected Indian productions dates.


 
Yes, the Radar will be up and running when we finalise the deal and order the first batch of fighters. The French have promised that orders for India will be taken simultaneously as that of the Armée de l'Air orders to ensure fast delivery.


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## Devianz

koushik said:


> The Eurofighter also has a good ground attack capability.The typhoon currently uses the LITENING-3 Laser Designating Pod.it is also equipped with Paveway-IV 500kg Laser Guided Bombs and the Enhanced Paveway EGBU-16 1000kg Laser Guided Bombs.From 2014 it will be equipped with MBDA Storm Shadow Stand Off Cruise Missile and Brimstone ATGM.I think also the MBDA ALARM Anti Radiation Missile can be launched.So it is also as great as Rafale.


 
But the problem with EFT is that it only has 3 hardpoints strong enough to support heavy A to G ammunitions. The same hardpoints are also used for carrying external fuel tanks, you will have to compromise on range for heavier payload. In that case Storm Shadow and Enhanced Paveway are rendered useless when on a deep strike mission. Perhaps the 500kg Paveway too(?).


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## Markus

Devianz said:


> But the problem with EFT is that it only has 3 hardpoints strong enough to support heavy A to G ammunitions. The same hardpoints are also used for carrying external fuel tanks, you will have to compromise on range for heavier payload. In that case Storm Shadow and Enhanced Paveway are rendered useless when on a deep strike mission. Perhaps the 500kg Paveway too(?).


 
Deep strike with heavy load is the job of MKI escorted by stealth fighters or MMRCA in A2A mode.


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## Mr.Ryu

Also need to know do we get any no. of the winning plane in ready to fly condition at least some 5 - 10 so our pilots will get greater exposure to these baby when they come home. Hope 5 - 10 plane is no big deal as we will eventually order some 200+ of the winner.


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## KS

Markus said:


> Deep strike with heavy load is the job of MKI escorted by stealth fighters or MMRCA in A2A mode.


 
Deep strike will be shared by both MKI and MMRCA as these MMRCa are widely expected to replace the aging Jaguars and Mig-27 which are primarily strike fighters.




Mr.Ryu said:


> Also need to know do we get any no. of the winning plane in ready to fly condition at least some 5 - 10 so our pilots will get greater exposure to these baby when they come home. Hope 5 - 10 plane is no big deal as we will eventually order some 200+ of the winner.


 
The first squadron (18 planes) will be bought off the shelf in fly-away condition and the rest produced under license in India.

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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> Deep strike will be shared by both MKI and MMRCA as these MMRCa are widely expected to replace the aging Jaguars and Mig-27 which are primarily strike fighters.


 
As Mr. Devianz pointed out, deep strike with heavy load may not be possible for MMRCA machines given the load that they can carry.

The best possible way out is to use heavy MKI escorted with MMRCA in A2A mode or stealth fighters as and when they come.


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## Bang Galore

Guys, guys, the technical trials are over. The Ef & Rafale have both cleared it. There is no point in discussing radar, hardpoints, A2G capabilities etc. That's water under the bridge now. What is being discussed are commercial details - what are we going to get for the money, how badly do you want the contract, what else can you bring to the table that is a game changer in your favour etc. The fact that they dumped the Americans so unceremoniously must both be exhilarating & scary for the two contenders. If the Americans couldn't get anywhere with their pull, these two would be thinking that they don't stand a chance of throwing their weight around I imagine that what the MoD wants (within reason of course), the MoD will get. Time to put the squeeze gentlemen.


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## Markus

Bang Galore said:


> Guys, guys, the technical trials are over. The Ef & Rafale have both cleared it. There is no point in discussing radar, hardpoints, A2G capabilities etc. That's water under the bridge now. What is being discussed are commercial details - what are we going to get for the money, how badly do you want the contract, what else can you bring to the table that is a game changer in your favour etc. The fact that they dumped the Americans so unceremoniously must both be exhilarating & scary for the two contenders. If the Americans couldn't get anywhere with their pull, these two would be thinking that they don't stand a chance of throwing their weight around *I imagine that what the MoD wants (within reason of course), the MoD will get*. Time to put the squeeze gentlemen.


 
Back room games, anyone?


----------



## SpArK

Markus said:


> Status of AESA by Thales ????? - still in development.
> 
> But the point is that without foreign customers its not gonna make money. It cannot thrive on French orders alone, surely?
> 
> India or Brazil, any one will do for them but then Indian order is far more bigger than the Brazilian one.
> 
> Its hard cash and how much of it at the end of the day is the only thing that concerns the promoters of the both the companies.
> 
> Bigger the order, more the money at their disposal, more the recognition, more sales, better pipeline, more growth.




AESA is all ready as explained by sancho... they will be integrating it in early next year in newer batches. 

We are not sure how much more wil Brazil will buy after the initial order. Even if they dont chose and we get a better deal its amaz


----------



## Bang Galore

Karthic Sri said:


> Deep strike will be shared by both MKI and MMRCA as these MMRCa are widely expected to replace the aging Jaguars and Mig-27 which are primarily strike fighters.



Not really, they are refurbishing the jaguars with a new engine. Honeywell was in the lead so Rolls Royce decided to play dirty & withdraw from the contract creating a single vendor situation( the CAG frowns on those situations). The Jaguars are likely to be there for a very long time & the IAF is pretty happy with their performance.


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> AESA is all ready as explained by sancho... they will be integrating it in early next year in newer batches.
> 
> We are not sure how much more wil Brazil will buy after the initial order. Even if they dont chose and we get a better deal its amaz


 
Like we discussed before, MMRCA is gonna make or break.

Both companies need to fire on all cylinders now. Their time of reckoning has arrived.


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## KS

Markus said:


> As Mr. Devianz pointed out, deep strike with heavy load may *not be possible for MMRCA* machines given the load that they can carry.
> 
> The best possible way out is to use heavy MKI escorted with MMRCA in A2A mode or stealth fighters as and when they come.


 
Not possible for EFT, but possible for Rafale as said in the MRCA threads. 

The reason being EFT was primarily developed as a A2A fighters to counter the Sukhois while the Rafale was from the start envisioned to be an omni-role fighter on the lines of the Mirage.


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## rajusri

Here is naming convention of Indian fighter by a BR webmaster...  





Rakesh..... why did you call the Rafale .... Katrina ?

After the Bollywood actress Katrina Kaif. I have this embarrassing habit of assigning names of Indian actresses to the fighter aircraft we have or will buy. PVS Jagan Mohan is going to kill me for this, cause he hated the name Rambha and this stupid naming convention of mine!  Anways, here is the list;

*Su-30MKI: Rambha* (a Tamil actress...see her photo and you will know why)

*Rafale: Katrina* (for being a real firecracker with just the right potency  )

*EF Typhoon: Shatru* (after yesteryear actor Shatrughan Sinha for attempting various roles - hero & villian - but came up short IMHO, much like Typhoon's alleged multi-role capability. And as well for his moustache which bears a close resemblance to the Typhoon's front canards. Alas, Shatru did not go down too well with my fellow BRFites and I since renamed her to Sonakshi (Shatrughan's daughter)...but still no takers  )

*F-18: Rakhi Sawant*  (was not named by me...but by another BRFite...but aptly fits)

*Mirage 2000 - Aishwariya Rai* (because like the actress, she may be aging...but with an upgrade will come back with a bang! Also got the name Aishwariya Rai from an article I read by Air Marshal (Retd) Harish Masand about the MiG-29 vs Mirage 2000 duel in the 1980s. In there the M2K was known as Delicate Darlings, which is what she is.)

*MiG-29UPG: Kajol* (same as the one above, but already come back with a bang)

*Jaguar: Madhuri Dixit* (came back but fizzled out...much like Jaguar re-engine program)

Still have not decided on names for the MiG-27 and MiG-21 Bison.

but 

*Mig-21: Ramya Krishnan *(Old. Older than the current admirers (read pilots) still going strong and makin men out of boys and currently in use.. )
*Mig-25: Sonali Bendre
Mig-27: Raveena Tandon*

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## praveen

guys Iam hearing that Boeings Air India deal will be under scrutiny if it or the US government decides to throw a hissy fit with rspt to MMRCA please verifxw this


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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> Not possible for EFT, but possible for Rafale as said in the MRCA threads.
> 
> The reason being EFT was primarily developed as a A2A fighters to counter the Sukhois while the Rafale was from the start envisioned to be an omni-role fighter on the lines of the Mirage.


 
Going by the media reports, it says that Rafale actually follows EFT and not the way around.

It may or may not be true or could be just a bargaining parameter for things to be revealed in this fashion.

But it looks that for IAF, EFT is just one bit higher than the Rafale.

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## Markus

praveen said:


> guys Iam hearing that Boeings Air India deal will be under scrutiny if it or the US government decides to throw a hissy fit with rspt to MMRCA please verifxw this


 
Very good. we will happily go to Airbus then.

More money for Europe.


----------



## Mirza Jatt

> *The Eurofighter, followed closely by Rafale, "came closest" to meeting the 643 technical attributes *specified by India during the long-drawn field trials held by IAF test pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions. "*The other four fell below the base line of minimum air staff qualitative requirements to be met*," said the official.



US pressure fails to pull its fighter through IAF test - The Times of India

ET still ahead of rafale....


----------



## praveen

Markus said:


> Very good. we will happily go to Airbus then.
> 
> More money for Europe.


no its not about going for airbus but for preventing them to launbh a tirade againrt us in us media.Any fuss will lead to this deal under scrutiny it already started read it in DNA


----------



## Markus

praveen said:


> no its not about going for airbus but for preventing them to launbh a tirade againrt us in us media.Any fuss will lead to this deal under scrutiny it already started read it in DNA


 
Relax.

They need us as much as we need them.


----------



## KS

Bang Galore said:


> Not really, they are refurbishing the jaguars with a new engine. Honeywell was in the lead so Rolls Royce decided to play dirty & withdraw from the contract creating a single vendor situation( the CAG frowns on those situations). The Jaguars are likely to be there for a very long time & the IAF is pretty happy with their performance.


 
I personally dont think they will be for much long given their numerous limitations and the fastly evolving threat perceptions on both borders.

A weak engine, inability to fly in low visibility,older weapons, lack of radar etc. Only a few have the French Agave radars and even that is antiquated.

Unless the IAF goes ahead with the DARIN III upgrade which seems to have hit a roadblock (?) , they don't have much potential, capability even though they may have life in their airframes.

But this is just my opinion.



Markus said:


> Going by the media reports, it says that Rafale actually follows EFT and not the way around.
> 
> It may or may not be true or could be just a bargaining parameter for things to be revealed in this fashion.
> 
> But it looks that for IAF, EFT is just one bit higher than the Rafale.


 
Actually you are saying the other way round - See IJ's link above. It is the Rafale which is leading as of now from IAF's ASR report.


----------



## Varad

Markus said:


> Very good. we will happily go to Airbus then.
> 
> More money for Europe.



But Airbus already got the $15.6 billion deal for 180 aircrafts. Is there another deal signed by India with boeing??


----------



## Mirza Jatt

Karthic Sri said:


> I personally dont think they will be for much long given their numerous limitations and the fastly evolving threat perceptions on both borders.
> 
> A weak engine, inability to fly in low visibility,older weapons, lack of radar etc. Only a few have the French Agave radars and even that is antiquated.
> 
> Unless the IAF goes ahead with the DARIN III upgrade which seems to have hit a roadblock (?) , they don't have much potential, capability even though they may have life in their airframes.
> 
> But this is just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you are saying the other way round - *See IJ's link above. It is the Rafale which is leading as of now from IAF's ASR report.*



No its the Typhoon which is leading and is closely followed by rafale.


----------



## KS

rajusri said:


> Here is naming convention of Indian fighter by a BR webmaster...
> 
> *Su-30MKI: Rambha* (a Tamil actress...see her photo and you will know why)
> 
> 
> *Jaguar: Madhuri Dixit* (came back but fizzled out...much like Jaguar re-engine program)



Bahhh if we go by looks the Russian planes will beat every single fighter on the planet by a large margin.

*MKI* (according to me) - Vidya Balan (natural beauty) 

*Jaguar* - Madhuri Dixit - are you farking kidding me ?At most they can be Amisha Patel. 

*Mig-29* - Madhuri Dixit or Sri Devi - ever Green beauty


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## KS

Indian Jatt said:


> No its the Typhoon which is leading and is closely followed by rafale.


 
Times of India  



> *&#8220;Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000,* used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,&#8221; sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.



Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle


----------



## Mirza Jatt

Karthic Sri said:


> Times of India
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle


 
then its really confusing...a show in NDTV clearly said ET is leading and it was confirmed in the newspaper today.In that case i'd rather wait before calling any of them ahead in the race.

and I dont find anything wrong or funny with the source being ToI.

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## Markus

Indian Jatt said:


> then its really confusing...a show in NDTV clearly said ET is leading and it was confirmed in the newspaper today.
> I dont find anything wrong or funny with the source being ToI.


 
Yes, I read in DNA too.

It clearly said EFT followed closely by Rafale were the only ones to meet IAF requirements.


----------



## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Bahhh if we go by looks the Russian planes will beat every single fighter on the planet by a large margin.
> 
> *MKI* (according to me) - Vidya Balan (natural beauty)
> 
> *Jaguar* - Madhuri Dixit - are you farking kidding me ?At most they can be Amisha Patel.
> 
> *Mig-29* - Madhuri Dixit or Sri Devi - ever Green beauty


 
LCA -Kareena???


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## drunken-monke

A very few people may know this that when EF and Rafale pited against each other, every time Later came out as winner in a friendly exercise. The only fighter jet which scored over Rafale is F22. This info makes some sence.. Also as some members have alread pointed out that EF specs might go in our adversary in the west may hamper our advantage..


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## SpArK

drunken-monke said:


> A very few people may know this that when EF and Rafale pited against each other, e*very time Later came out as winner* in a friendly exercise. The only fighter jet which scored over Rafale is F22. This info makes some sence.. Also as some members have alread pointed out that EF specs might go in our adversary in the west may hamper our advantage..


 


Everybody knows it and history will repeat.


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## drunken-monke

No,
LCA- Genelia, small, thin, sweet, smart and very effective..


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## koushik

SpArK said:


> LCA -Kareena???


 
Su-30 MKI= Hrithik Roshan bcoz hrithik has a body like a rubber and can twist and turn and can do break dance fabulously and has deadly looks and just like him Su 30MKI with its TVC has extreme manouverability and deadly looks. What do u think?


----------



## drunken-monke

surely.. by the way two fighters have been chosen to bargain from each one of then, let us see how much can GoI can squeez..


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## SpArK

Lockheed to keep up defence ties with India - Brahmand.com


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

*My Fav....*
































*Love it.......*

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## SpArK



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## KS

Indian Jatt said:


> then its really confusing...a show in NDTV clearly said ET is leading and it was confirmed in the newspaper today.In that case i'd rather wait before calling any of them ahead in the race.



On a serious note - you can see in the MRCA thread how Sancho has clearly explained that only the Tranche 3 of the EFT will be fully A2G capable and IIRC still there is not enough funding for that. Whereas almost all the A2G weapons have been integrated onto the Rafale.

The thing is which aircraft CURRENTLY fits the bill as when the EFT fully matures it may be ahead of Rafale. But now or in the very near future - NO.



Indian Jatt said:


> and I dont find anything wrong or funny with the source being ToI.


 
j/k yaar.


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

*Looks like Benny is on dassaults payroll to promote rafale.....*


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## bhagat

B_R_I_C said:


> *Looks like Benny is on dassaults payroll to promote rafale.....*


 
What they are paying benny....This is discrimination man, they are not paying me.....dhamm i am switching to euro fighter.....


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## SpArK

B_R_I_C said:


> *Looks like Benny is on dassaults payroll to promote rafale.....*


 
Nope its just that i dont want EF vs EF in case on a conflict... you know what i mean??


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## Archie

below_freezing said:


> Hopefully, the stealth version of the J-11B will compete in India's next arms procurement.


 
Well , the next fighter procurement will begin in 2018-20 , to replace Mig29smt , Jaguars and Mirage 2000 , However that contract has already been awarded to Russia for PAKFA/FGFA project 
Why do u think that Russia has not shown as much disapointment as the Americans coz they aleady have assured deal for 200-250 5th gen Fighters to replace similar number of Mig29smt , Jaguars and Mirage 2000 fighters in Indian inventory which would begin retiring in 2017-18

The Nearest arms procurement which China can apply for , will begin in yr 2027 to replace the first 100 Su30MKI , which will begin retiring in 2032-34


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## Markus

I want some miracle to happen and US to pitch in with a modified sales pitch offering F15 Silent Eagle PLUS Growlers.


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## SpArK

bhagat said:


> What they are paying benny....This is discrimination man, they are not paying me.....dhamm i am switching to euro fighter.....


 
They pay you French fries and a trip to Paris, the city of love..

If you switch to EF, they will invite you for a date with the queen Elizabeth and a trip to old german camps and also a trip to Turin,Italy the village of Sonia Gandhi..


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> I want some miracle to happen and US to pitch in with a modified sales pitch offering F15 Silent Eagle PLUS Growlers.


 

Selling fighter aircraft is a bit like selling cars, no point buying American Chevrolet if the Germans are selling Audi or French are selling Bugatti.

America tells you where to drive, how to drive and can turn off your car when they don't like your driving. You don't really own an American car, you merely rent it out at their pleasure. 1.2 billion people can't depend on America's mood to protect their interests.

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## bhagat

SpArK said:


> They pay you French fries and a trip to Paris, the city of love..
> 
> If you switch to EF, they will invite you for a date with the queen Elizabeth and a trip to old german camps and also a trip to Turin,Italy the village of Sonia Gandhi..



so They invite you for a date with the queen Elizabeth yakk you must be terrified after hearing this offer now we understand why you strongly pitching for rafale....


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> Selling fighter aircraft is a bit like selling cars, no point buying American Chevrolet if the Germans are selling Audi or French are selling Bugatti.
> 
> America tells you where to drive, how to drive and can turn off your car when they don't like your driving. You don't really own an American car, you merely rent it out at their pleasure. 1.2 billion people can't depend on America's mood to protect their interests.


 
^ Thats a repeat telecast.

Same post different thread


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## SpArK

Markus said:


> ^ Thats a repeat telecast.
> 
> Same post different thread


 
Also by the same guy in the same forum on the same day using. the same PC.... Kewl isnt it?


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## Markus

SpArK said:


> Also by the same guy in the same forum on the same day using. the same PC.... Kewl isnt it?


 
Unkewl.

I dont like repeaters


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## All-Green

SpArK said:


> Nope its just that *i dont want EF vs EF in case on a conflict*... you know what i mean??


 
How is that ever going to happen my man?


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## justanobserver

All-Green said:


> How is that ever going to happen my man?


 
When we take back the Kohinoor

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## SpArK

All-Green said:


> How is that ever going to happen my man?


 
The Saudi factor, ofcourse.


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

SpArK said:


> Nope its just that i dont want EF vs EF in case on a conflict... you know what i mean??


 

Hmmm..Interesting..But i don't think thats going to happen. Do you think saudi's will do that openly and that too in in future(suppose within next 5-10 year ) You know what i mean.....

I don't think so


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## tushar

> I want some miracle to happen and US to pitch in with a modified sales pitch offering F15 Silent Eagle PLUS Growlers.


I don't think now India will accept this kind of deal....they had their chance....Also F15 silent eagle will come under heavy fighter category like Su30 mki while IAF is looking for Medium category....


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## Markus

tushar said:


> I don't think now India will accept this kind of deal....they had their chance....Also F15 silent eagle will come under heavy fighter category like Su30 mki while IAF is looking for Medium category....


 
Yeah I know, I said it requires a "miracle".

I dont mind ditching Rafale or EFT for F15 SE PLUS couple of Growlers.


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## All-Green

SpArK said:


> The Saudi factor, ofcourse.


 
I do not think so.
Some toys are not shared between boys.

And if by some miracle it was possible to get on loan, would be of little to no use for PAF on short notice.

PAF is more about aggressive tactics and those are devised over years of practice over a machine.
EF is not a familiar machine, unlike F-16 which PAF can push to its limits based on its unique experience with the viper.

I think Rafael suits IAF, but there is no chance of Saudi EF vs Indian EF in the other case...unless you go ahead and attack KSA.


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## SpArK

B_R_I_C said:


> Hmmm..Interesting..But i don't think thats going to happen. Do you think saudi's will do that openly and that too in in future(suppose within next 5-10 year ) You know what i mean.....
> 
> I don't think so


 
They dont need to.. Air exercises, training in equipment can be done/ has been going , which takes away the advantage.. 

just google the military relatons..

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## KS

^ In that case only hope the UAE don't get their hands on the Raffys.


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## SpArK

Another important point 


Lifted from BR

With only 18 of the a/c scheduled to be delivered in fly away condition and HAL to assemble 108 , the CKD/SKD/raw materials supply chain stretching back to 100 of suppliers in europe/us/asia , managing that chain by OEM, HAL pulling its pants up and establishing the new production line, training of people, QA, payment schedules, repair & test facilities, flight training, weapons training and handling ... all emerge as major factors determining how quickly we can get our 1st India made birds into service


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## Yeti

Love this video


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## RazorMC

EF has a very slim chance to be selected.
Among many factors, the Rafale costs less than the EF Typhoon and Dassault has had a good record with the IAF.

My opinion is that the EF was included in the final selection process to put a bit of pressure on Dassault to either lower prices or provide some other incentive to India.

The companies involved in EF production may be granted an alternative development program with India.

This way India gets two birds with one shot.

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## SR 71 Blackbird

Dassault is the only one providing full source code for AESA radar enabling us to maintain secrecy.


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## koushik

The (DASS) Defensive Aids Sub System is integrated within the Eurofighter Typhoon's structure along with all the avionics of the Eurofighter typhoon.It has been developed by EuroDASS Consortium.This system also includes an Electronic Countermeasures/Electronic Support Measures suite and is supplemented with a front and rear missile approach warning system and a supersonically capable towed decoy system and an advanced Self Protection Jammer.Laser Warning Receivers and chaff/flare dispensing system from SAAB Tech Electronics.The avionics is based on a NATO standard jam-proof Data Link that is interlinked with quadrapel renundancy FBW System.The DASS includes a new Missile Approach Warning System which will be present on all Tranche-3 typhoons and India will get the Tranche-3 EFT.hope u Liked this info about the Eurofighter Typhoon'r defensive suite.


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## koushik

The Eurofighter Typhoon's EJ200 Engine => The EJ200 is a low bypass ratio augmented turbofan engine,providing an unique (1:1) power even at Max.Take Off Weight and also allowing a Mach 1.3 supercruise capability.It is manufactured by Eurojet Turbo GmbH.The Engine includes state of the art systems like the Integrated blade construction wide chord fan,airfoils without any need of inlet glide vanes,single crystal turbine blade,an airspray fuel delivery system and an advanced FAAEC Control System with an on board engine diagonastic system.It features a next-generation variable geometry engine inlet to shield against Radars and IRST.The engine features a cool blanket of air around the engine core to allow higher engine operation temparature.It has a 4:1 low bypass power ratio.The engine produces 62Kn dry Thrust and 90Kn Thrust in full afterburning reheat.The EJ200 will also be fitted with Thrust Vectored Nozzles (TVN).


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> british preffers the air superiority version of EF , german preffers the ground attack version...
> it was the german EF to take part in ground attack trails in MMRCA..
> 
> but germany decided not to take part in libya , otherwise you would get a look at the ground attack capabilities of the EF as well...


 
That's wrong! German Luftwaffe EFs are only air superiority fighters, that's why they were used in Kosovo for air policing roles, but has no A2G capability at all. They are still integrating LGBs and LDPs, so even if weapon trials was done in Germany, they wasn't done by German EFs (I expect Tornados have shown Taurus, or HOSBO standoff missile firing)! 
The only EFs that at least were said to be ready for ground attacks since 2008 were of the RAF, that's why they are fielded now in these roles in Libya as well and letest reports hints that Italian EFs could follow. However, be it Germany, Italy, or England, their prime strike fighter is the Tornado and if you want to see what edge the Rafale has over EF you can understand it simply by the fact, that a single Rafale can be used in all roles that the RAF needs EF and Tornado for. Be it air policing of the EF, be CAS of EF and Tornado, be it SEAD, maritime attack, deep penetration, or recon missions of the Tornado, the Rafale can do it all and can do it now!




koushik said:


> The Eurofighter also has a good ground attack capability.The typhoon currently uses the LITENING-3 Laser Designating Pod.it is also equipped with Paveway-IV 500kg Laser Guided Bombs and the Enhanced Paveway EGBU-16 1000kg Laser Guided Bombs.From 2014 it will be equipped with MBDA Storm Shadow Stand Off Cruise Missile and Brimstone ATGM.I think also the MBDA ALARM Anti Radiation Missile can be launched.So it is also as great as Rafale.


 
Unlike Rafale, the 1000Kg LGB are not integrated in the EF yet, they have done the Paveway IV (250Kg) LGB, but it seems not to be operational in Libya. That's why they have no option than using 500Kg Paveway 2s for tanks, or armoured vehicles, which is an overkill. All the rest is just rumoured so far, because the partners have not cleared T3B yet. However, I bet they will now that the EF is shortlisted and it will be interesting what capabilities exactly will be added and when!

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## KEETARP

So Finally curtains coming down . Highly surprised that Gripen failed to make to the list . 

Rafale looks like having upper hand at this moment . I guess strong lobbying by Sancho on this forum helped its chances . 

Since I am stern critic of Rafale , i will now shift my support to Eurofighter .


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## Markus

Sancho and Spark are staunch Rafale supporters.

So who are the hardcore supporters of the Typhoon ?


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## KS

PRATEEK said:


> So Finally curtains coming down . Highly surprised that Gripen failed to make to the list .
> 
> Rafale looks like having upper hand at this moment . I guess strong lobbying by Sancho on this forum helped its chances .
> 
> *Since I am stern critic of Rafale , i will now shift my support to Eurofighter *.


 
Just like Pakistanis started supporting Sri Lanka for the WC final ? 

The end result is same - Jeetega Bhai, Rafale Jeetega.


----------



## sancho

RazorMC said:


> EF has a very slim chance to be selected.
> Among many factors, the Rafale costs less than the EF Typhoon and Dassault has had a good record with the IAF.
> 
> My opinion is that the EF was included in the final selection process to put a bit of pressure on Dassault to either lower prices or provide some other incentive to India.
> 
> The companies involved in EF production may be granted an alternative development program with India.
> 
> This way India gets two birds with one shot.


 
The question is not who is, or was leading according the media (which differs from source to source anyway), but what were the criterias that made these fighters more suited to the requirements of IAF / MoD?
From all known sources of IAF officials, strike capability (with PGMs and standoff weapons), AESA radar, fast integration and to some extend even maritime attack capability was important, but exactly in these fields the EF don't fit a all! The EF consortium and their officials stated many times that the radar will only be read by 2015, if the neccesary fundings are cleared, but the pre-funding ended this march and nothing happend since then officially. The analysis of British government stated that the EF will be fully A2G capable only by 2018, which again requires much fundings for weapon systems and CFTs to give the EF enough range and payload. So is IAF really ready to wait so long and pay so much for the EF to be ready and worth the money? Although I would like to see the EF fully developed, I highly doubt that IAF will do it, especially not if you have a ready and proven alternative, that is even cheaper. 

I agree, it looks like the EF was shortlisted to put more pressure on Dassault and some said the same when the rumors about Rafale beeing out of the competition came up as well, that we (IAF/MoD/GoI) spread the news on purpose, to put more pressure on them back then as well.




PRATEEK said:


> So Finally curtains coming down . Highly surprised that Gripen failed to make to the list .
> 
> Rafale looks like having upper hand at this moment . *I guess strong lobbying by Sancho on this forum helped its chances* .
> 
> Since I am stern critic of Rafale , i will now shift my support to Eurofighter .


 
Wished I had that kind of power!

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## sancho

Markus said:


> Sancho and Spark are staunch Rafale supporters.
> 
> So who are the hardcore supporters of the Typhoon ?


 
No, I am a supporter of Indian forces and just want the best suited fighter for them, but I have to admit that I didn't expected MoD/GoI to be that resistant against US political pressure. They seems to played it very smart and my finalist were always Rafale and F18SH, for different reasons though.

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## KEETARP

Karthic Sri said:


> Just like Pakistanis started supporting Sri Lanka for the WC final ?
> 
> The end result is same - Jeetega Bhai, Rafale Jeetega.



Yes , but even if Rafale wins . I wont be going in complete shock  .
Whatever end result is - IAF will get a jet that will be unmatched in performance in this continent . 
Perhaps only if we are planning to bomb South Korea F15SE can give us some hard nuts .


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## koushik

sancho said:


> The question is not who is, or was leading according the media (which differs from source to source anyway), but what were the criterias that made these fighters more suited to the requirements of IAF / MoD?
> From all known sources of IAF officials, strike capability (with PGMs and standoff weapons), AESA radar, fast integration and to some extend even maritime attack capability was important, but exactly in these fields the EF don't fit a all! The EF consortium and their officials stated many times that the radar will only be read by 2015, if the neccesary fundings are cleared, but the pre-funding ended this march and nothing happend since then officially. The analysis of British government stated that the EF will be fully A2G capable only by 2018, which again requires much fundings for weapon systems and CFTs to give the EF enough range and payload. So is IAF really ready to wait so long and pay so much for the EF to be ready and worth the money? Although I would like to see the EF fully developed, I highly doubt that IAF will do it, especially not if you have a ready and proven alternative, that is even cheaper.
> 
> I agree, it looks like the EF was shortlisted to put more pressure on Dassault and some said the same when the rumors about Rafale beeing out of the competition came up as well, that we (IAF/MoD/GoI) spread the news on purpose, to put more pressure on them back then as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wished I had that kind of power!


 
Hey Sancho can you please tell me how many have I submitted? I cannot see how many posts i have submitted because of Mobile Browser.Anyways count my vote as well for Rafale.I love it.


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## sadib888

The F-22 is definitely at the top of the list here but we'll compare to be sure. I get my specs and notes from fas.org.


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## Storm Force

My reasoning why RAFAEL HAS WON THIS MMRCA contest already 

Im fairly certain that ultimately its Rafael that will win this mmrca deal.

THE REASONS ARE SO OBVIOUS and listed below.

1. Rafael is a true multi role fighter far better than Tiffy in Strike role
2. IAF is already well equipped with Air supremacy fighters
3. Rafael is 20% cheaper than Typhoon
4. Rafael is not used by any of PAKISTANS ALLYS 
5. Rfael have offered IAF 100% TOT on everything
6. Rafael uses virtually identical weapons to Typhoon.
7 Rafael have promised delivery of upto 40 fighters by 2014 tiffy only 18 by the same date.
8. Rafael is a late 4 generation successor to the much loved mirage2000 already in IAF service so india has much experience of dassult systems.


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## Whiplash

Storm Force said:


> My reasoning why RAFAEL HAS WON THIS MMRCA contest already
> 
> Im fairly certain that ultimately its Rafael that will win this mmrca deal.
> 
> THE REASONS ARE SO OBVIOUS and listed below.
> 
> 1. Rafael is a true multi role fighter far better than Tiffy in Strike role
> 2. IAF is already well equipped with Air supremacy fighters
> 3. Rafael is 20% cheaper than Typhoon
> 4. Rafael is not used by any of PAKISTANS ALLYS
> 5. Rfael have offered IAF 100% TOT on everything
> 6. Rafael uses virtually identical weapons to Typhoon.
> 7 Rafael have promised delivery of upto 40 fighters by 2014 tiffy only 18 by the same date.
> 8. Rafael is a late 4 generation successor to the much loved mirage2000 already in IAF service so india has much experience of dassult systems.


 
Rafael is an israeli company. Not even participating in the MMRCA. 

Just kidding bro. Good points you've got there


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## jha




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## SpArK

*Saab Targets Smaller Gripen Orders After Losing Bid for India​*
Saab AB (SAABB), the Swedish maker of the Gripen jet fighter, is focusing on winning smaller orders from as many as nine countries after being excluded from Indias military program, Chief Executive Officer Hakan Buskhe said.

Saab sees potential for Gripen orders in Brazil, Romania, Croatia, Denmark, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech Republic, Buskhe said in an interview today. Hungary and the Czech Republic are existing customers that may expand their orders, he said.

We feel good about the Gripen program, it has lots of potential, Buskhe said, adding that it remains a profitable business.

Indias defense ministry informed Saab April 27 that the Gripen hadnt been shortlisted for its plan to buy 126 jets.

India is focusing on Frances Dassault Aviation SA (AM) and the European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. after also turning down Boeing Co. (BA) and Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT), Buskhe said

Saab still has a good chance to win an order from Brazil, which initially plans to buy 36 planes, Buskhe said. The Stockholm-based company has not received any negative signals from Brazil, and hopes for a decision within months, the CEO said.




Saab Targets Smaller Gripen Orders After Losing Bid for India - Bloomberg

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## luckyyy

RazorMC said:


> EF has a very slim chance to be selected.
> Among many factors, the Rafale costs less than the EF Typhoon and Dassault has had a good record with the IAF.
> 
> My opinion is that the EF was included in the final selection process to put a bit of pressure on Dassault to either lower prices or provide some other incentive to India.
> 
> The companies involved in EF production may be granted an alternative development program with India.
> 
> This way India gets two birds with one shot.


 
rafale price is already lower then EF , why do you think Rafale will offer anything more now as they happily enjoy the L1 bidder status....
it would be actually other way around , i think Rafale has induce into the final selection process to put a bit of pressure on EF to either lower prices or provide some other incentive to India..


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## Zabaniyah

sadib888 said:


> The F-22 is definitely at the top of the list here but we'll compare to be sure. I get my specs and notes from fas.org.


 
The F-22 is not for sale on the international market. 

Rafale is the best one out there available on the international market.


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## GORKHALI

*JUST FOUND THIS SHARP BANKING SNAP OF RAFALE ,ENJOYYYYY * ...


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## GORKHALI

*RAFALE M*

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## AvidSpice

I'm just loving this thread! Kingfisher Draught beer + MMRCA discussion on PDF...What more do you need? Carry on!


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## President Camacho

PANDORA said:


> *RAFALE M*


 
That's the best pic in this thread yet, thanks man! Kingfisher ka nasha dugna ho gaya !!!

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## AvidSpice

Patanjali said:


> That's the best pic in this thread yet, thanks man! Kingfisher ka nasha dugna ho gaya !!!


 
Sahi mei yaar..I just love this birdie! Actually I'm drooling over her!


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## GORKHALI

Patanjali said:


> That's the best pic in this thread yet, thanks man! Kingfisher ka nasha dugna ho gaya !!!



Not only looks , I studied A to Z about Rafale and Eurofighter but In the end it's Rafale who came out as clear winner .*Sparky* did you read super hornet block 2 PDF which i posted in my blogs and you posted here ,similarly i got Rafale PDF too which am gonna posted in JPG format soon in my blog ..
..

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## RazorMC

luckyyy said:


> rafale price is already lower then EF , why do you think Rafale will offer anything more now as they happily enjoy the L1 bidder status....
> it would be actually other way around , i think Rafale has induce into the final selection process to put a bit of pressure on EF to either lower prices or provide some other incentive to India..


 
Sorry, but I disagree. Rafale is already well-suited to IAF's requirements as a true multi-role aircraft. The EF Typhoon is more air-to-air oriented at the moment and therefore competes with the Su-30s rather than complement them (which a multi-role should do). The Rafale also enjoys a lower RCS, which is crucial in modern combat, compared to the EF (thanks to the silly catfish design).

Dassault still has a lot to offer btw.


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## GORKHALI



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## SpArK

*Reco-NG AEREOS pod insight​*





*The 21st century reconnaissance team
*

The AREOS Reco NG pod, an integral part of the F3 standard for Rafale fighters, brings France into the world of all-digital reconnaissance. As a veritable &#8220;omnirole&#8221; fighter, the Rafale has already replaced several types of warplanes in the French air force and navy.* This trend is set to continue in the coming years with the retirement of France&#8217;s last Mirage F-1 fighters, the carrier-borne modernized Super Etendard and the oldest members of the Mirage 2000 fleet. The Rafale F3 will therefore take over the reconnaissance role, for which it deploys a dedicated system, the AREOS Reco NG pod developed by Thales.*

The French air force has already ordered a dozen pods, and the French navy another eight. Several series of deck landing and catapult launch tests have validated the pod&#8217;s use on aircraft carriers.

*TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC
*

*The AREOS Reco NG pod is 4.6 meters long (15 ft.) and weighs 1,100 kg (2,420 lb), making it compatible with the Rafale, as well as the Mirage 2000 if needed*. Up front on the pod, the HA/MA (high altitude/medium altitude) optical sensor supports photography at medium range, or even long-range at standoff distance. The AREOS Reco NG offers an identification range of several tens of kilometres &#8211; two to three times the range of the Presto pod currently deployed on Mirage F1CR aircraft in Afghanistan.

Located aft in the AREOS pod, the low-altitude sensor *supports horizon to horizon photography at an altitude of only 60 meters (200 ft) and very high speeds. The pod operates automatically, whether working in intermittent, zone coverage or terrain-following mode, and always knows its exact position in space, so that it can control the pointing of its optical sensors in both pitch and roll.*

Its control capability is based on data transmitted by its own inertial reference system, correlated with data from the nav-attack system on the aircraft itself. As soon as the shots are taken, they are automatically overlaid on a digital elevation model, geo-referenced and assembled to provide a complete mosaic of the target.

*The images are then stored on a hard disk in the pod. They can be transmitted to a ground image receiving and processing station in real time, via a high-speed microwave link.*

*The recce pod can also operate in video mode by using successive images, and by measuring the displacement of a moving object from one image to another, it can estimate its speed.* 

Battlefield trials based on a hundred test flights enabled the CEAM military aircraft test center to validate the operation of the sensors and their tactical use in conjunction with the Rafale*. 

Test flights covered the full range of scenarios, from conventional to unusual, including tests of opportunity targets involving aircraft being reassigned in the middle of their sortie, through the L16 datalink.

&#8220;The pod is very easy to operate,&#8221; emphasizes Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Philippe Scherer, the officer in charge of the AREOS Reco NG program at CEAM. &#8220;The crew sees a pointer on their digital map with a mission request. All they have to do is indicate that they accept the mission and slave the pod to the pointer. It&#8217;s fast, easy, and there&#8217;s no risk of a misunderstanding, since no radio communications are involved.&#8221;

*UNRIVALED*

The teams at CEAM who subjected the Rafale-AREOS Reco NG duo to the toughest tests they could think of are very pleased. &#8220;The daytime images are excellent,&#8221; says Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer. &#8220;Our objectives for night imaging, especially long-range infrared shots, were just as ambitious. The initial results are encouraging, but we&#8217;re now waiting for new adjustments to further boost performance.&#8221;

*With this dual capacity, tactical and long-range, day and night, the Rafale F3/AREOS Reco NG duo is unrivaled worldwide.* The first crews from operational units were trained at CEAM this summer. Several weeks later, the system reached its initial operating limit for appropriate missions, for example in foreign theaters of operation. Reflecting this capability, the pod is now deployed on the Charlesde-Gaulle aircraft carrier. By the end of the year, it will open its operating envelope to include terrain following during penetration flights, which is nearly as complex as a nuclear mission.

When this capability is added, the pod will officially be in service. &#8220;We&#8217;re eagerly awaiting the advent of this pod, since it&#8217;s a vital part of the Rafale F3,&#8221; concludes Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer.

----
* Air force and naval versions of the Rafale, both to the F3 standard.

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## SpArK

*DAMOCLES POD
*






*Customer requirements* 

Thales is under contract from the French defence procurement agency (DGA) to provide through-life support (TLS) for the Damocles pod for a period of three years. The terms of the contract include a guarantee of 80% immediate operational availability for the entire Damocles fleet. In service since 2004, the Damocles pod is currently deployed on the "Super Etendard Modernisé" (standard 5) aircraft on board the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier and at the Landivisiau base. The French Navy Rafales will be equipped progressively.

*Key challenges * 
The Thales-designed Damocles laser target tracking and designation pod is critical to the ability to deliver surgical strikes with minimum collateral damage. The key challenges of the Damocles TLS contract are as follows: 

&#8226; assuring operational availability of 80% at any given point in time for the entire fleet of pods, 
&#8226; providing this level of availability despite extreme conditions of use, including deck landings on the aircraft carrier, 
&#8226; optimising the use of the pods during out-of-area operations, when movements of expert personnel and maintenance equipment are more difficult to obtain on short notice.

*Solution *

To meet our availability commitments, a specific level 2 of maintenance procedure was established for the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. This includes video maintenance through a secure satellite link (Syracuse) to provide real-time support from distant resources. Thales nevertheless maintains a permanent capacity to move personnel and equipment to the Landivisiau base and the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier to provide a complete range of services from diagnostics to repair and start-up if required.

*Thales added-value 
* 

Thales is the first contractor to roll out a secure video remote maintenance solution on board the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. Through this contract, Thales confirms its expertise in the support of optronic systems and its commitment to supporting forces on deployment by adapting to the specific constraints of the armed forces and progressively adopting the concept of on-mission availability as part of the capability-based approach to military operations

DAMOCLES POD

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## GORKHALI

*AGAIN ONE OF THE BEST SHOT EVER *


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## Kinetic

Earlier thought I have created an Eurofighter brigade at PDF but seems like its opposite now!!!  EFT may have only one shortcoming ie price otherwise it wins anytime.


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## SpArK

Kinetic said:


> Earlier thought I have created an Eurofighter brigade at PDF but seems like its opposite now!!!  EFT may have only one shortcoming ie price otherwise it wins anytime.


 
Short comings are plenty.... it wont be short of coming... Raffy brigade rules.


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## tallboy123

Guys which has the most lowest RCS????

EF or Rafale or F-18 or F-16 or Mig-35,gripen


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## Kinetic

SpArK said:


> Short comings are plenty.... it wont be short of coming... Raffy brigade rules.


 
Ultimately Raffy brigade will join us after EFT is chosen.


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## Kinetic

tallboy123 said:


> Guys which has the most lowest RCS????
> 
> EF or Rafale or F-18 or F-16 or Mig-35,gripen


 
I guess tts EFT or Rafale. Followed by Gripen NG. Then F-18E, Mig-35 and F-16IN.


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## JanjaWeed

SpArK said:


> Short comings are plenty.... it wont be short of coming... *Raffy brigade rules*.


 
not too fast.. look at your poll results! they are closing in matey!


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## SpArK

Kinetic said:


> Ultimately Raffy brigade will join us after EFT is chosen.


 
Not only us.. few other nationalities too.. cause it has the potential to bankrupt us unless the deal is fixed along with the kohinoor diamond.


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## tallboy123

Kinetic said:


> I guess tts EFT or Rafale. Followed by Gripen NG. Then F-18E, Mig-35 and F-16IN.


 
*In EFT and Rafale which has lower RCS than other????*


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## SpArK

JanjaWeed said:


> not too fast.. look at your poll results! they are closing in matey!


 
It doesnt matter. Only 1 will be chosen.. let it overtake then we can talk.


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## Kinetic

tallboy123 said:


> *In EFT and Rafale which has lower RCS than other????*


 
No country reveal that but both aircrafts inducted in last 10 years have been developed keeping RCS reduction in mind. Rafale said to have some *active radar cancellation system.* But I doubt it.


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## Kinetic

SpArK said:


> Not only us.. few other nationalities too.. cause it has the potential to bankrupt us unless the deal is fixed along with the kohinoor diamond.


 
No matter what the price is but it was earlier mentioned by defence minister that the winner have to supply the planes with in the quoted price tag of $11 billion. This was the RFP, give the planes in the mentioned price tag. It will not bankrupt us but along with MKI, Mig-29UPG, Mirage-2009 and LCA will increase heart-bits of our enemy further.


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## Contract Killer

Kinetic said:


> Earlier thought I have created an Eurofighter brigade at PDF but seems like its opposite now!!!  EFT may have only one shortcoming ie price otherwise it wins anytime.


 
We are not too far......... Very soon we will rule


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## GORKHALI

*RAFALE FANTASY *


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## Kinetic

Contract Killer said:


> We are not too far......... Very soon we will rule


 
Yup, lets see. Above all how many years now they take to choose one from these two and how many years t takes to sign the deal and how many years it takes to induct first aircraft. lol


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## Bhairava

Does Rafale has CFT ?


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## Contract Killer

Kinetic said:


> Yup, lets see. Above all how many years now they take to choose one from these two and how many years t takes to sign the deal and how many years it takes to induct first aircraft. lol


 
Lol..............................


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## GORKHALI

*COMING SOON TO YOUR GATE *


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## jha

EFT is closing in the poll..Say NO to FRENCHIES..


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## SpArK

Gounder said:


> Does Rafale has CFT ?


 
Yup sexy oness

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## RazorMC

Kinetic said:


> No country reveal that but both aircrafts inducted in last 10 years have been developed keeping RCS reduction in mind. Rafale said to have some *active radar cancellation system.* But I doubt it.


 
The basics of cancellation process is simple enough; transmit signals to cancel out the radar waves. But for this to work, one needs to have knowledge of the exact frequency the enemy ground radars are transmitting. This is further complicated when the AESA comes into play. So the cancellation could work only for ground-based radars and then only with the necessary information.

Therefore the Rafale relies more on RCS reduction and even though both Rafale and EF claim to have the third lowest RCS after the F-22 and F-35 respectively, it is commonly believed that the Rafale beats the EF in this respect.

However the EF's overall performance is better esp. with more thrust and a higher ceiling than its counterpart. The EF has also entered service with more AFs than the Rafale.

The Rafale on the other hand has offered ToT and this is one area that India is definitely interested in.

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## SpArK



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## tallboy123

Guys anyone thought about this??
Rafale $84million
EF $108million

Pak FA less than $100 million....

Why should we go for EF which i more costlier than PAK-FA and a 4.5Gen aircraft....???
Rafale offers completer ToT,source code,Aesa radar ToT......*Single manufacturer*,*where as EF has 4 partners...and EF has some spare problems*
SO i think Rafale is best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Kinetic

RazorMC said:


> The basics of cancellation process is simple enough; transmit signals to cancel out the radar waves. But for this to work, one needs to have knowledge of the exact frequency the enemy ground radars are transmitting. This is further complicated when the AESA comes into play. So the cancellation could work only for ground-based radars and then only with the necessary information.
> 
> Therefore the Rafale relies more on RCS reduction and even though both Rafale and EF claim to have the third lowest RCS after the F-22 and F-35 respectively, it is commonly believed that the Rafale beats the EF in this respect.
> 
> However the EF's overall performance is better esp. with more thrust and a higher ceiling than its counterpart. The EF has also entered service with more AFs than the Rafale.
> 
> The Rafale on the other hand has offered ToT and this is one area that India is definitely interested in.


 
Thanks, well explained. AESA with frequency agility or say agile beam will make it difficult but for other radars fixing the transmit signal will not be difficult. Also Spectra is excellent.

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## conworldus

You Indian Rafale fanboys keep in mind that Rafale had trouble shooting down obsolete Libyan craft in dog fights. The Eurofighter is technologically much superior. It is the politics that bogs it down a little bit.


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## tallboy123

RazorMC said:


> The basics of cancellation process is simple enough; transmit signals to cancel out the radar waves. But for this to work, one needs to have knowledge of the exact frequency the enemy ground radars are transmitting. This is further complicated when the AESA comes into play. So the cancellation could work only for ground-based radars and then only with the necessary information.
> 
> Therefore the Rafale relies more on RCS reduction and even though both Rafale and EF claim to have the third lowest RCS after the F-22 and F-35 respectively, it is commonly believed that the Rafale beats the EF in this respect.
> 
> *However the EF's overall performance is better esp. with more thrust and a higher ceiling than its counterpart.* *The EF has also entered service with more AFs than the Rafale.*
> 
> The Rafale on the other hand has offered ToT and this is one area that India is definitely interested in.


 

IAF needs a good A2G platform,so service ceiling is not so important.... and EF is in service with many other AF becoz EF partners are UK,Gemrnay,Italy,Spain...so naturally they have it in their inventory...But rafale is designed and built by single company and single nation.....


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## Hulk

How many hard-point Rafale has, I can only see nine in the picture above.


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## SpArK

indianrabbit said:


> How many hard-point Rafale has, I can only see nine in the picture above.


 
RAFALE is fitted with 14 hard points (13 on the RAFALE M). 

Advanced weapons

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## Kinetic

indianrabbit said:


> How many hard-point Rafale has, I can only see nine in the picture above.


 
I can count 12 here. +1 for pods.


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## Kinetic

Eurofighter has 13 hard-points plus two dedicated wingtips for integral EW pods.

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## anathema

Any idea about how if Rafale is selected will affect Mirage upgrade Deal ?

Any concessions from French ?


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## SpArK

Kinetic said:


> Eurofighter has 13 hard-points plus two dedicated wingtips for integral EW pods.


 
Still less than Rafale..







That's a *500kt nuke* in the middle,especially for you.


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## SpArK

anathema said:


> Any idea about how if Rafale is selected will affect Mirage upgrade Deal ?
> 
> Any concessions from French ?


 
Nothing as of now... in medias..


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## tallboy123

Rafale has 14 hardpoints and EFT has 13 hardpoints


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## Bhairava

I think the Eurofighter is a more advanced plance than the Rafale and given the funds, time will be much better fighter than Rafale.

But the advantage with Rafale is its commonality, 100% AESA ToT, Mirage commonality etc.

I think the MoD is doing a good job and I place their trust in them. WHatever of these two is selected the IAF is destined for a quantum leap in its capabilities.


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## blackops

conworldus said:


> You Indian Rafale fanboys keep in mind that Rafale had trouble shooting down obsolete Libyan craft in dog fights. The Eurofighter is technologically much superior. It is the politics that bogs it down a little bit.


 
there were dog fights over libya


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## Hulk

That is more then MKI which has 12 hardpoints, we are buying a beast. I also saw the NDTV live show yesterday, where they confirmed that 126 is not the number but the minimum number, the actual order will be more.

We will have a world class air force. SU30MKI, Rafale and Upgraded Mirage and Mig-29. wow.


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## SpArK




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## President Camacho

PANDORA said:


> Not only looks , I studied A to Z about Rafale and Eurofighter but In the end it's Rafale who came out as clear winner .*Sparky* did you read super hornet block 2 PDF which i posted in my blogs and you posted here ,similarly i got Rafale PDF too which am gonna posted in JPG format soon in my blog ..
> ..


 
PANDORA, sorry it took me a while to come back online (Kingfisher jaari hai idhar...)... Just a reqquest... would you please jot down the main points between A to Z about Rafale? My friend here (and me too hehe) are not so much aware of avionics beyond the Benoulli's principle lol It would be really nice of you to help us grasp the foundational differences between Rafale and other aircrafts. Bts... I am a big fan of the french (*quite contrary to the rest of the countries, French have the policies I love even more than their people... well I love Americans but not the policies so ya know... lol*)


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## SpArK




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## Shastra

'Life of the IAF pilot is more important than ties' - Rediff.com News


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> RAFALE is fitted with 14 hard points (13 on the RAFALE M).
> 
> Advanced weapons


 
Buddy, that's the EF!


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## shree835

conworldus said:


> You Indian Rafale fanboys keep in mind that Rafale had trouble shooting down obsolete Libyan craft in dog fights. The Eurofighter is technologically much superior. It is the politics that bogs it down a little bit.


 
Mr. Bong....Indians don need Chinese Consultant...At any stage.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Buddy, that's the EF!


 
Shi$.... damn it... what an ugly thing that is.


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## Zabaniyah

blackops said:


> there were dog fights over libya


 
ummm...yes...

Libyan plane shot down by French -  World News - MSN News UK


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> I can count 12 here. +1 for pods.


 
12 (5 of them wet)+ 2 for pods (1 pod on each side of the air intake is possible) is the maximum load out, but dependend on the weapons and on customer requirements. French forces for example don't use the 2 x centerline stations for MICA missiles, neither the external wing stations (next to the wingtips). Dassault has tested these configs and the UAE wants the outer wingstations as well, because they want to carry heavy loads with 3 x 2000lb bmobs, or 3 x Scalp cruise missiles + 6 x MICAs and fuel tanks.
EF has more weapon hardpoints, but 4 of them are dedicated for BVR missiles only (at the fuselage), has no dedicated pod station (centerline station is used now) and has only 3 x wet stations for fuel tanks, which limits the weaponload.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Shi$.... damn it... what an ugly thing that is.


 
 Good that nobody noticed it.


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## monitor

So its official that the long awaited MMRCA competition has come into its final stage and two aircraft have been down selected which will go head to head to win this $10 billion deal. So is it gonna be the Eurofighter Typhoon, or is it gonna be the Dassault Rafale. I don't exactly have an answer to that question, but what I am gonna answer today is which of there aircraft should IAF select. So without any delays, I will get to the analysis.

AIRFRAME
Both these aircraft are very advanced delta canard config aircraft. They have seen quite some action and have been favorites of air forces all over the world. Although the aircraft look similar on the out, the airframe is completely different, and every component on it serves a different purpose.




The Typhoon is a formidably built aircraft. Its tough, has a huge canard which is placed at an angle to the ground. And its canards are up front on the nose, Now this really helps it pull up quick. What this does is that it creates a virtual tail heavy feeling for the aircraft which allows it to point its nose in any direction very quickly like the Flanker. 

Another thing worth a mention is its canopy. It has a bubble canopy that offers a clear view for the pilot. The intakes are placed below the fuselage. Although these have its own benefits like ability to fly at slow speeds, they do tend to create problems at high speeds. At high speed turns, the airframe goes through great amount of stresses. But the airframe of the Typhoon is very strong, and designed in a beautiful way, and its perfectly capable of handling those stresses. The only downside is the maintenance that would be required to keep it in good shape.

One look at the wings, and its clear that the Brits wanted this to be one maneuverable machine. Everything about the aircraft screams speed and maneuverability. The wings are not straight, they are slight curved upwards to increase their strength, and be able to handle low speeds in a better way. Even the slats are controlled through powerful motor screws which require less space and move quickly and firmly. The vertical stabilizer is conventional though.



The Typhoon has a variable intake, which means that the intake on the Typhoon can open up or close a little to control the amount of air entering the engines. This is a great feature which allows the aircraft to be just as efficient at high speeds, as it is at low speeds.
When the aircraft reaches higher speeds, a lot of air at high velocities starts to enter the intakes. It becomes very difficult to combust all this air, so a lot of fuel starts to go waste, and the engine starts to lose thrust. This can be avoided by reducing the inlet size, so less air enters at high speed, and when it reaches the combustion chamber, it slows down due to the larger size of the chamber, so it ignites properly and thrust is maintained.

The Rafale is a different beast. It isn't as complex, but its sturdy. It is designed in a way that makes it look beautiful and rigid at the same time. The canards of Rafale are not as big as that of the Typhoon, and they are placed near the wings, which suggests that their is little help that the aircraft can expect of the canards. But this configuration helps the Rafale be a beautiful handler. It would be great for low altitude fast flying. At fast speeds, this configuration will offer least resistance and allow it to reach Mach 2+ speeds.

The Rafale isn't as radical as the Typhoon. It uses conventional technology in its airframe. Everything about it is tried and tested. And it wouldn't be as maneuverable as Typhoon. In fact, Typhoon would be miles above Rafale when it comes to maneuverability.

The intakes on the Rafale are also conventional. They look cool but there isn't anything revolutionary about it. It isn't a bad thing, but the Typhoon takes the cake here too.

ENGINES
The Typhoon has 2 EJ-200 engines with a dry thrust of 60 KN and a wet thrust of 90 KN. These are respectable numbers and with a great airframe and powerful wings, the engines are well complemented. There are news that the engines might be upgraded with TVC engines, but I don't think it will happen as the current engines are good enough and canards do the job of TVC very nicely on the Typhoon.

put in a bigger engine? Maybe because it didn't need it. The current engines on the Rafale are fine, BUT when compared to the latest 4.5 gen aircraft, the thrust does seem to be on the lower side. The Snecma M88-2 engines with 50 KN dry thrust and 75 KN thrust with afterburners are high efficiency engines but with lower thrust. Dassault has promised to replace the engines with high thrust engines, but since its not here yet, I wouldn't consider that.

The Typhoon again wins the round hands down.

AVIONICS
The Typhoon has a CAPTOR radar, which is a mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar. Now most of the people who know something about radars would know that this is an old technology. In fact technology wise, these type of radars are two generation behind the AESAs and one generation behind the PESAs. But what EF has done is that they have tweaked it, increased the size of the antenna and that has increased its performance by a lot. It can detect aircraft sized targets at ranges up to 160 kms. But since its a MSA radar, it also has a few disadvantages. It can not scan many targets at a time, and it can be jammed. It has the ability to interleave, this I think I will discuss sometime later.

The Rafale on the other hand scores nicely here. Its RBE2 radar is a PESA radar which is a good thing. But the size of the nose of Rafale restricts the radar sizes which makes the radar detect aircraft sized targets at a range of 140-150 kms. The radar gets beaten by the Typhoon in range, but it does make up for it in technology. The radar is completely automated. When in interceptor mode, it automatically selects high, medium or low pulse repetition frequencies for best reception. The radar will soon be replaced by an AESA variant, which would have a range of 160-170 kms and would be very advanced, the same can not be said about Typhoon. An AESA variant is planned for Typhoon also but recent reports suggest that it may not be shipped on Tranche 3, but could be available as an upgrade.



The radar is a tie here. Both are good radars, nothing groundbreaking about them.

RADAR CROSS SECTION REDUCTION FEATURES
The EF Typhoon has implemented several features to reduce the frontal rcs of the aircraft. But mind you, its just the frontal rcs that is reduced. From the side, the rcs is comparable to other modern aircraft. The frontal rcs should be a 0.5-1 sq meter. A lot of people expect it to be 0.1, which is almost impossible and more of a net rumor.

The rcs would be reduced further if an AESA is employed.

The Rafale on the other hand has a higher rcs due to less composites used. The shape of the airframe is another problem. It should have a much higher rcs from sides too. The rcs of Rafale should be around 1.5-2 sq meter.

ARMAMENT
This is a very important aspect of a fighter aircraft. And both the Eurocanards have recently employed new missiles. The Typhoon is going to use Meteor, with ASRAAM in the future, and the Rafale will use Meteor with MICA as its missile.
The missiles in use by both the aircraft are top quality missiles, but what makes the Typhoon a better package is its compatibility with AIM9-Sidewinder and AIM120-AMRAAM. Although MICA and Meteor are more than capable to match these missiles, but it does narrow down Rafale's options.

Both the aircraft are compatible with loads of air-ground munitions. Many people believe that Typhoon isn't a very capable Air-ground platform, but this isn't true. Typhoons are perfectly capable of taking out any ground mission. The problem is with training of pilots. The number of pilots flying Typhoon are very low, and they have not been trained for ground missions. Only a minority of pilots are capable of it as of now.
Something that deserves a mention here is the SPECTRA system on Rafale. It is a software system that increases the chances of survival for the aircraft but automating most of the tasks. It allows seamless integration and communication with other aircraft and ground assets. Typhoon also has a capable EW suite but SPECTRA is believed to be a bit better. 

So this round is another tie.

I guess this is where I would sum it all up. The Rafale is a great aircraft, but the Typhoon seems to be just a little bit better. They are both expensive planes, and we couldn't go wrong with either of these aircraft. But if it was left to me, I'd pick the Typhoon any day.


----------



## Mirza Jatt

monitor said:


> So its official that the long awaited MMRCA competition has come into its final stage and two aircraft have been down selected which will go head to head to win this $10 billion deal. So is it gonna be the Eurofighter Typhoon, or is it gonna be the Dassault Rafale. I don't exactly have an answer to that question, but what I am gonna answer today is which of there aircraft should IAF select. So without any delays, I will get to the analysis.
> 
> AIRFRAME
> Both these aircraft are very advanced delta canard config aircraft. They have seen quite some action and have been favorites of air forces all over the world. Although the aircraft look similar on the out, the airframe is completely different, and every component on it serves a different purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Typhoon is a formidably built aircraft. Its tough, has a huge canard which is placed at an angle to the ground. And its canards are up front on the nose, Now this really helps it pull up quick. What this does is that it creates a virtual tail heavy feeling for the aircraft which allows it to point its nose in any direction very quickly like the Flanker.
> 
> Another thing worth a mention is its canopy. It has a bubble canopy that offers a clear view for the pilot. The intakes are placed below the fuselage. Although these have its own benefits like ability to fly at slow speeds, they do tend to create problems at high speeds. At high speed turns, the airframe goes through great amount of stresses. But the airframe of the Typhoon is very strong, and designed in a beautiful way, and its perfectly capable of handling those stresses. The only downside is the maintenance that would be required to keep it in good shape.
> 
> One look at the wings, and its clear that the Brits wanted this to be one maneuverable machine. Everything about the aircraft screams speed and maneuverability. The wings are not straight, they are slight curved upwards to increase their strength, and be able to handle low speeds in a better way. Even the slats are controlled through powerful motor screws which require less space and move quickly and firmly. The vertical stabilizer is conventional though.
> 
> 
> 
> The Typhoon has a variable intake, which means that the intake on the Typhoon can open up or close a little to control the amount of air entering the engines. This is a great feature which allows the aircraft to be just as efficient at high speeds, as it is at low speeds.
> When the aircraft reaches higher speeds, a lot of air at high velocities starts to enter the intakes. It becomes very difficult to combust all this air, so a lot of fuel starts to go waste, and the engine starts to lose thrust. This can be avoided by reducing the inlet size, so less air enters at high speed, and when it reaches the combustion chamber, it slows down due to the larger size of the chamber, so it ignites properly and thrust is maintained.
> 
> The Rafale is a different beast. It isn't as complex, but its sturdy. It is designed in a way that makes it look beautiful and rigid at the same time. The canards of Rafale are not as big as that of the Typhoon, and they are placed near the wings, which suggests that their is little help that the aircraft can expect of the canards. But this configuration helps the Rafale be a beautiful handler. It would be great for low altitude fast flying. At fast speeds, this configuration will offer least resistance and allow it to reach Mach 2+ speeds.
> 
> The Rafale isn't as radical as the Typhoon. It uses conventional technology in its airframe. Everything about it is tried and tested. And it wouldn't be as maneuverable as Typhoon. In fact, Typhoon would be miles above Rafale when it comes to maneuverability.
> 
> The intakes on the Rafale are also conventional. They look cool but there isn't anything revolutionary about it. It isn't a bad thing, but the Typhoon takes the cake here too.
> 
> ENGINES
> The Typhoon has 2 EJ-200 engines with a dry thrust of 60 KN and a wet thrust of 90 KN. These are respectable numbers and with a great airframe and powerful wings, the engines are well complemented. There are news that the engines might be upgraded with TVC engines, but I don't think it will happen as the current engines are good enough and canards do the job of TVC very nicely on the Typhoon.
> 
> put in a bigger engine? Maybe because it didn't need it. The current engines on the Rafale are fine, BUT when compared to the latest 4.5 gen aircraft, the thrust does seem to be on the lower side. The Snecma M88-2 engines with 50 KN dry thrust and 75 KN thrust with afterburners are high efficiency engines but with lower thrust. Dassault has promised to replace the engines with high thrust engines, but since its not here yet, I wouldn't consider that.
> 
> The Typhoon again wins the round hands down.
> 
> AVIONICS
> The Typhoon has a CAPTOR radar, which is a mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar. Now most of the people who know something about radars would know that this is an old technology. In fact technology wise, these type of radars are two generation behind the AESAs and one generation behind the PESAs. But what EF has done is that they have tweaked it, increased the size of the antenna and that has increased its performance by a lot. It can detect aircraft sized targets at ranges up to 160 kms. But since its a MSA radar, it also has a few disadvantages. It can not scan many targets at a time, and it can be jammed. It has the ability to interleave, this I think I will discuss sometime later.
> 
> The Rafale on the other hand scores nicely here. Its RBE2 radar is a PESA radar which is a good thing. But the size of the nose of Rafale restricts the radar sizes which makes the radar detect aircraft sized targets at a range of 140-150 kms. The radar gets beaten by the Typhoon in range, but it does make up for it in technology. The radar is completely automated. When in interceptor mode, it automatically selects high, medium or low pulse repetition frequencies for best reception. The radar will soon be replaced by an AESA variant, which would have a range of 160-170 kms and would be very advanced, the same can not be said about Typhoon. An AESA variant is planned for Typhoon also but recent reports suggest that it may not be shipped on Tranche 3, but could be available as an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> The radar is a tie here. Both are good radars, nothing groundbreaking about them.
> 
> RADAR CROSS SECTION REDUCTION FEATURES
> The EF Typhoon has implemented several features to reduce the frontal rcs of the aircraft. But mind you, its just the frontal rcs that is reduced. From the side, the rcs is comparable to other modern aircraft. The frontal rcs should be a 0.5-1 sq meter. A lot of people expect it to be 0.1, which is almost impossible and more of a net rumor.
> 
> The rcs would be reduced further if an AESA is employed.
> 
> The Rafale on the other hand has a higher rcs due to less composites used. The shape of the airframe is another problem. It should have a much higher rcs from sides too. The rcs of Rafale should be around 1.5-2 sq meter.
> 
> ARMAMENT
> This is a very important aspect of a fighter aircraft. And both the Eurocanards have recently employed new missiles. The Typhoon is going to use Meteor, with ASRAAM in the future, and the Rafale will use Meteor with MICA as its missile.
> The missiles in use by both the aircraft are top quality missiles, but what makes the Typhoon a better package is its compatibility with AIM9-Sidewinder and AIM120-AMRAAM. Although MICA and Meteor are more than capable to match these missiles, but it does narrow down Rafale's options.
> 
> Both the aircraft are compatible with loads of air-ground munitions. Many people believe that Typhoon isn't a very capable Air-ground platform, but this isn't true. Typhoons are perfectly capable of taking out any ground mission. The problem is with training of pilots. The number of pilots flying Typhoon are very low, and they have not been trained for ground missions. Only a minority of pilots are capable of it as of now.
> Something that deserves a mention here is the SPECTRA system on Rafale. It is a software system that increases the chances of survival for the aircraft but automating most of the tasks. It allows seamless integration and communication with other aircraft and ground assets. Typhoon also has a capable EW suite but SPECTRA is believed to be a bit better.
> 
> So this round is another tie.
> 
> I guess this is where I would sum it all up. The Rafale is a great aircraft, but the Typhoon seems to be just a little bit better. They are both expensive planes, and we couldn't go wrong with either of these aircraft. But if it was left to me, I'd pick the Typhoon any day.



did you write this ???


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## sancho

Zabanya said:


> ummm...yes...
> 
> Libyan plane shot down by French - World News - MSN News UK


 
There wasn't, it was just a trainer aircraft and they forced it to land and destroyed it with a PGM when the pilot was left.


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## monitor

In the poll Its a tie between typhoon and Rafale lets see which one is selected .


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## monitor

Indian Jatt said:


> did you write this ???


 
No copy and pasting . from you


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## SpArK

Indian Jatt said:


> did you write this ???


 
Jagjit gonna sue him ...

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## Mirza Jatt

monitor said:


> No copy and pasting . from you


 
not from me.........but copy/pasting for sure.  anyways that whats expected from you.


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## monitor

SpArK said:


> Jagjit gonna sue him ...


 
Somebody get me a lawyer .


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## Mirza Jatt

SpArK said:


> Jagjit gonna sue him ...


 
Lol..I know..and he claims to have written it himself......WOW !!!

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## monitor

Indian Jatt said:


> not from me.........but copy/pasting for sure.  anyways that whats expected from you.


 
Oh its from jagjitnatt of indian defence .


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## monitor

Indian Jatt said:


> Lol..I know..and he claims to have written it himself......WOW !!!


 
Where i claimed i write it my self ? i just forgot to post the original source and writer name .


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## Mirza Jatt

monitor said:


> Where i claimed i write it my self ? i just forgot to post the original source and writer name .



bunk it....


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## PoKeMon

Somebody got caught here I believe.
Anyone need help


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## koushik

Patanjali said:


> PANDORA, sorry it took me a while to come back online (Kingfisher jaari hai idhar...)... Just a reqquest... would you please jot down the main points between A to Z about Rafale? My friend here (and me too hehe) are not so much aware of avionics beyond the Benoulli's principle lol It would be really nice of you to help us grasp the foundational differences between Rafale and other aircrafts. Bts... I am a big fan of the french (*quite contrary to the rest of the countries, French have the policies I love even more than their people... well I love Americans but not the policies so ya know... lol*)


 
The Rafale is made with the vision of a low RCS MRCA and so it has a low frontal RCS.the rafale is equipped with the Topsight-E Helmet Mounted Sight which are linked with WVR AAMs like the MBDA MICA and ASRAAM.the rafale also employs several passive sensors integrated into one complete sensor suite which is called the Optronique Secteure Fróntal(OSF) and this system includes and Internal IRST,FLIR and the Sagem Sigma-95 GPS System.The sensor suite also incorporates features like Flight Managment,Data fusion,man machine Interface.The Radar to be used on the Rafale F3 is the Thales RBE2 AA AESA having 850 T/R Modules.it will have air-to-air mode,BVR mode,attack mode,air-to-ground mode,High Resolution Synthetic aperture array,terrain mapping.The SPECTRA is the EW suite of the Rafale which includes jammers,decoy system,chaff/flare dispenser,RWR,LWR,ECM and Missile Approach Warner.it will use the Damocles and Reco NG Pods for PGM delivery.The weapöns it carries are MBDA Meteor,MICA,ASRAAM Air to air missiles.Air-to-ground weapons include Exocet cruise missile,Paveway-4 LGB (500kg),enhanced paveway EGBU-16(1000kg) LGB,MBDA Scalp EG Stand off missile,Taurus kepd 350 cruise issile,MBDA ALARM anti radiation missile,brimstone ATGM.it is powered by two Snecma M88 Engines with 81kn thrust each.it can reach speed of upto Mach-2.2.


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## SpArK




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## Mani2020

So finally the enigmatic deal is reaching to its end


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Jagjit gonna sue him ...



Jagjit seems to be a fellow EF fan..Barring a point or, two which can be debated on- this is a perfect analysis..
What say RAFALE FAANNNs...?


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## jha

Kinetic said:


> Thanks, well explained. AESA with frequency agility or say agile beam will make it difficult but for other radars fixing the transmit signal will not be difficult. Also Spectra is excellent.


 
Paala mat badal yaar..Dont change the side..
SPECTRA is good but so is DASS+PIRATE...


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Jagjit seems to be a fellow EF fan..Barring a point or, two which can be debated on- this is a perfect analysis..
> What say RAFALE FAANNNs...?


 
Nothing.. i will sue him instead... EFT Fannnnnn


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## JanjaWeed

i think there is some poll rigging going on here! everytime EF closes the gap, looks like rafale fans are making duplicate ID's & toppin it up!! i can't accept this poll result! we need re-poll on this one!! or else will have to file a petition!!


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## jha

SpArK said:


> RAFALE is fitted with 14 hard points (13 on the RAFALE M).
> 
> Advanced weapons



So, Finally you have stooped down to this level..

Posting an EF picture to impress Newbies by calling it a RAFALE..

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## SpArK

jha said:


> So, Finally you have stooped down to this level..
> 
> Posting an EF picture to impress Newbies by calling it a RAFALE..


 
where did i claim it was rafale.. 

info on rafale and a pic of EF.. bizzare isnt it..??


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## jha

Kinetic said:


> No country reveal that but both aircrafts inducted in last 10 years have been developed keeping RCS reduction in mind. Rafale said to have some *active radar cancellation system.* But I doubt it.


 
Active radar Cancellation system is another French propaganda..

Will write more on this tommo..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Active radar Cancellation system is another French *propaganda*..
> 
> Will write more on this tommo..


 
DiD ya change your flag dude?/ new keywords .. Huh huh??


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## jha

SpArK said:


> DiD ya change your flag dude?/ new keywords .. Huh huh??



Whose Takya Kalaam is this...? our neighbors..?


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## SpArK

Rafale's HUD cam footage of locking up the F-16s @ Nellis


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## sancho

*From the EF site:*






Eurofighter:  Home




> Eurofighter Typhoon is the only fighter to offer wide-ranging operational capabilities whilst at the same time delivering unparalleled fleet effectiveness.



Good for them to be shortlisted and I can understand that they are so happy, because it's the first time they achieved it in a real competition, but wide range of operational capabilities must be ironic.

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## StingRoy

Aah... thats an interesting banner on EFT... Dassault seems to be maintaining a low key atleast for now. Let see how they use this news to help their advertisements.


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## sancho

StingRoy said:


> Aah... thats an interesting banner on EFT... Dassault seems to be maintaining a low key atleast for now. Let see how they use this news to help their advertisements.


 
Don't expect too much, they were more than quiet during the whole competition and I don't think they will start doing much now, at least not for the public.


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## koushik

jha said:


> Paala mat badal yaar..Dont change the side..
> SPECTRA is good but so is DASS+PIRATE...


 
Jha bhaiya,I think you forgot to mention the Optronique Secteure Fróntal (OSF) on the Rafale which comprises several passive sensors integrated into it like an Internal IRST,Sagem Sigma-95 GPS,INS and other features like flight managment,data fusion and man-machine interface.So whenever you talk about Raffy's sensor suite you should mention the SPECTRA+OSF. Anyways,good mrning every1 here in PDF and wish that you have an awesome day today.

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## GORKHALI

@ Sancho ji , Rafale people Are truly professional ,they simply show their product effectivness infront of those where it really matters like in front IAF.I must say even eurofighter were quiet except in later stages of shortlisting such as Aero India 2011.


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## faithfulguy

Bad choice. India should position itself to acquire F-35. The Europeans are ready to share yesterday's technology with India as they are ready to acquire the 5th generation fighter. In 10-15 year, all 4+++++++++++++++th generation fighters will be obsolete because of the widely available 5th generation fighters such as F-35.


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## Vinod2070

^^ You prepare for the threats you face. We are getting a 5th generation fighter for our needs anyway.


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## Ammyy

faithfulguy said:


> Bad choice. India should position itself to acquire F-35. The Europeans are ready to share *yesterday's technology* with India as they are ready to acquire the 5th generation fighter. In 10-15 year, all *4+++++++++++++++th* generation fighters will be obsolete because of the widely available 5th generation fighters such as F-35.


 
yesterdays technology ???
How many of these yesterdays technology (4+++++++++++++th) fighter you have in your air force ???


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## Yeti

faithfulguy said:


> Bad choice. India should position itself to acquire F-35. The Europeans are ready to share yesterday's technology with India as they are ready to acquire the 5th generation fighter. In 10-15 year, all 4+++++++++++++++th generation fighters will be obsolete because of the widely available 5th generation fighters such as F-35.


 


With no source codes and rubbish tech transfer? and not sure of the costs even of the fighter which is only single engine, does not suit MRCA at all


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## hembo

faithfulguy said:


> Bad choice. India should position itself to acquire F-35. The Europeans are ready to share yesterday's technology with India as they are ready to acquire the 5th generation fighter. In 10-15 year, all 4+++++++++++++++th generation fighters will be obsolete because of the widely available 5th generation fighters such as F-35.


 
Here comes the US arms salesman!!


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## faithfulguy

DRDO said:


> yesterdays technology ???
> How many of these yesterdays technology (4+++++++++++++th) fighter you have in your air force ???


 
Have you check the kill ratio between F-22 and F-15. No matter how many 4th generation fighter we have, once the 5th generation fighters become widely available, the 4th generation fighters would be obsolete.


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## faithfulguy

Yeti said:


> With no source codes and rubbish tech transfer? and not sure of the costs even of the fighter which is only single engine, does not suit MRCA at all


 
Why spend so much on something that will be obsolete in 15 years. By 2025, all US planes will be 5th generation. Others will follow suite as well.


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## RPK

Sancho 

Is there any aggrement to cover the expense for the flight trial during evauvation process between vendors & Govt?


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## Yeti

faithfulguy said:


> Have you check the kill ratio between F-22 and F-15. No matter how many 4th generation fighter we have, once the 5th generation fighters become widely available, the 4th generation fighters would be obsolete.




F35 is not even as good as EF in air superiority and you saying it will become obsolete? are u crazy

just read this from a US pilot whos flown both the F22 and the EF:


In March 2005, Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Raptor, talked to Air Force Print News about these two aircraft. He said,

*The Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. They are different kinds of airplanes to start with; it's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula One car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance. &#8230;The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high g forces), very impressive. That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. &#8212; all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive.*

---------- Post added at 07:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 AM ----------




faithfulguy said:


> Why spend so much on something that will be obsolete in 15 years. By 2025, all US planes will be 5th generation. Others will follow suite as well.



obsolete? you dont know much about things like future blocks or upgrading


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## Ammyy

faithfulguy said:


> Have you check the kill ratio between F-22 and F-15. No matter how many 4th generation fighter we have, once the 5th generation fighters become widely available, the 4th generation fighters would be obsolete.


 


faithfulguy said:


> Why spend so much on something that will be obsolete in 15 years. By 2025, all US planes will be 5th generation. Others will follow suite as well.


 
Dnt talk about USA .

No country after USA have operational 5th gen fighter 

Why China developing J10b and other fighters ???


For next 2-2.5 decade 4.5++ gen fighter will be used by almost all airforce include all major ones Russia, China, India, UK, France


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## Vinod2070

Even USA can't afford an all 5th gen air force.

India is much more limited by available resources along with most countries in the world.


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## marcos98

*Rafale is no. 1 in MMRCA evaluations*
Just why has the Indian Air Force (IAF) short-listed the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon ahead of four other contenders, including the US F-16 and F/A-18 fighters, for the Rs 42, 000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract?

The down selection at the end of a prolonged evaluation of the six fighter jets was evidently based on the fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon were the most modern airframes and better equipped compared to F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 IN of the US, MiG-35 of Russia, and JAS-39 Gripen of Sweden.

The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.

*Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, *sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.

Interestingly, all six fighters were in the race till April 17, the deadline for submission of modified offset proposals. The representatives of these firms were informed of the Union governments decision to relax the offset policy mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP).

The original rider that half the value of the $ 10.5 billion contract be passed on to domestic firms was modified, fixing it at 30 per cent of the deal. We were all expecting a word on extension of commercial proposals on the last day, April 28, but got to know that only Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter have been invited for discussions, said a representative of Saab AB.

Those who lost out have made it known that they would raise issues concerning the price and other attributes of Rafale and Typhoon. The two aircraft are said to be the highest priced among those in the contest when looked at from a unit price point of view. Second, the Eurofighters AESA radar is still under development. Only the two US fighters have operational AESA radars on them.

If India finally picks the Rafale, it would be only the second air force after the French Air Force to induct these fighters into its fleet.

India has asked Dassault SA and Eurofighter GmbH to hold their price bids until the end of the year. The deal is expected to be signed by March 2012.

The Final Two

Eurofighter Typhoon  Germany/Britain/Italy/Spain

Dassault Rafale -- France

Out of the contest

Lockheed Martins F-16IN  USA

Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet  USA

SAABs Gripen JAS-39  Sweden

Mikoyan-Gureywichs MiG-35  Russia

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/nation/south/rafale-typhoon-score-merit-126


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## SpArK

GE's military engine business takes another hit | Business Courier

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## kingdurgaking

Indian Jatt said:


> *Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision*
> The Hindu : News / International : Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> now dont shoot the messenger.


 
The biggest problem with American jets is that... in every angle it is a tedious process... buying is a tedious one... operation them at our will is a tedious.... on top of everything getting a upgrade is worst of all.. we cant gurantee that upgrade can happen... they can simply deny it...

Either way Rafale or EFT both being costly is one of the wise decision... hoping the most suitable bird win


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## SpArK

*Who'll Buy This Fulcrum Now?​*




They're pronouncing its doom already in the Russian press. Predicting that the official elimination of the MiG-35 from India's M-MRCA fighter competition means curtains for the programme, such as it is. If that's true, the MiG-35 will be the one Fulcrum that nobody ever bought.

The facts are pretty brutal. A victory in the Indian tender was virtually mandatory for MiG to be able to generate the economies of scale that would allow it to sell 72 MiG-35s at an affordable unit price to the Russian Air Force. A Russian government indent for a certain number of MiG-35s was hinged to the platform's selection by the IAF -- not the other way round. With the MiG-35 officially out, the programme could effectively collapse, with structural implications for RAC-MiG Corp too. Chances are that the MiG-35's reported performance in the MMRCA competition (it was rejected with 14 flaws, most notably pertaining to its engines reports suggest) will likely kill its chances, if any, with other potential customers in Asia and Latin America. At the risk of invoking a touch of sentiment, after half a century of doing business with the Indian Air Force (it started in 1963 with the delivery of the first MiG-21-F13s), this may just have been MiG's last chance to sell India aircraft. There's even talk that in the continuing consolidation in the Russian aerospace industry, the Mikoyan-Gurevich identity may be gone forever in a merger. MiG's fortunes have been rough for years. The MiG-35's failure in the M-MRCA (I find it hard to believe the Russians really held on to a hope) may just have been like Kano's fatality in Mortal Kombat.





The ubiquitous No.154 (the visible MiG-35) is more a proof-of-concept platform (previously designated MiG-29M/M2; see photo above-right from Aero India 2005) than a type, and this was raised at various times with the UAC. The company did however field prototypes for the FET phase. There were several things that the MiG-35 had going for it: the IAF already operates MiG-29s (and could therefore appreciate the advancements in the new Fulcrum, not to mention inventory/infrastructure savings), the MiG-35 was competitively priced (~$40-mil a pop) and was closer to the definition of an M-MRCA than at least three of the others. But, as we now know, the aircraft was simply outperformed across the board during field evaluation. *The two MiG-35 prototypes (No. 961 and 967) participated in trials in India (Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh) in October 2009 and in Akhtubinsk and Zhukovsky in April last year.*





*Among the many things that weighed against the MiG-35 -- apart from its field performance -- was the fact that India would in the next couple of years have a sizeable and growing fleet of souped up MiG-29s -- 62 old MiG-29s are being upgraded to the UPG standard, which gives the fleet the Zhuk-M2E radar, the Thales Topsight helmet mounted sight, Sagem navigation system, OLS-UEM infrared search and track sensor, an Indian DARE EW suite and a new glass cockpit featuring colour MFDs.*

It will be interesting to see what those 14 flaws were that the IAF found in the MiG-35 -- those should be out sooner rather than later.


Live Fist


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## SpArK

*Why isn&#8217;t India buying American fighter jets?
​*
India has decided not to buy American F-16's or F/A-18's for the biggest defense tender in its history -- a pending $10 billion-plus contract for 126 multi-role combat aircraft. Following field trials, it has instead shortlisted the Rafale, made by France's Dassault, and the Typhoon, produced by a European consortium. Skeptics of Indo-U.S. strategic partnership view this as yet another Indian snub to the United States, arguing that the promise of Indo-American entente that was to follow from the historic civilian-nuclear agreement of 2008 has proven hollow.

The charge is that American proponents of closer cooperation with India have oversold India's willingness or ability to partner with the United States. India is unreliable, they argue -- just look at its failure to enact liability legislation that would bring the 2008 civilian-nuclear agreement into force. For the skeptics, Indian foreign policy, rather than tilting in a more pro-American direction, remains guided by non-alignment and an abiding concern for strategic autonomy -- if not an outright hostility to the West, as in the bad old days of the Cold War.

While India's decision is certainly disappointing, this analysis is flawed.

First, the United States has a national interest in Indian strategic autonomy, because one important consequence of India's geopolitical ascent is the ballast it provides to an Asian order not subject to China's tutelage. From an American national interest perspective, it is vital that India retain strategic autonomy by growing its internal capabilities and building external partnerships with a range of important powers, including not just America but also Japan, South Korea, Australia, Indonesia, and European states.

The civilian-nuclear deal, advanced U.S. defense sales to India, technology-sharing, and other American initiatives have been designed to build Indian strength and promote Indian development. The mercantilistic idea that the ultimate goal of American policy towards India is creating a lucrative new market for American defense companies is not credible.

Second, India is not non-aligned, whatever the results of one defense sale. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh submitted his government to a no-confidence vote in 2008 over the nuclear deal with the United States -- risking the leadership of his coalition over the future of relations with the United States. India's military exercises more with America's armed forces than with any other, and the United States has emerged as a leading arms supplier to India, successfully selling it reconnaissance aircraft, transport aircraft, naval vessels, and other advanced platforms. Beyond the United States, India's growing set of partnerships are almost entirely with states along the Indo-Pacific littoral that fear the consequences of overweening Chinese power and seek to balance it.

India's double-digit annual defense budget increases, and India's emergence as the biggest arms importer in the world, aren't directed at the United States, or Europe, or Japan. They are undertaken with an eye on China first and Pakistan second. Yes, India's prime minister recently attended a BRICS summit -- though an Indian Foreign Ministry spokesman made clear beforehand that India vests more importance in the IBSA grouping (India, Brazil, South Africa) of developing democracies -- because they share common values. The BRICS, of course, do not.

Third, it's worth considering the perspective from New Delhi on the aircraft sale. Despite considerable progress in recent years, the United States historically has not been what Indians would call a reliable supplier of military hardware. To the contrary: It has sanctioned India repeatedly, cutting off sales of military platforms, technologies, and spare parts over several different periods. The United States has also provided advanced weaponry to India's key rivals (Pakistan since 1954, China during the 1980s).

Politically, an Indian government under frequent attack for moving closer to Washington stands to benefit from insulating itself against yet more charges of favoritism towards America by buying U.S. fighters. Another core political objective in this context is to avoid the kind of corruption scandals that have marred previous Indian defense purchases (most notably the Bofors scandal of the 1980s, which brought down an Indian government). The possibility for a potential scandal over the role of American political pressure should India buy American is a charge the country's political masters are keen to avoid, and are now immune from.

A related political factor is the what my Indian colleague Dhruva Jaishankar describes as "the general drift" in U.S.-India relations, which "has only increased both countries' resolve to drive harder bargains. This period of drift was initiated by the Obama administration's early missteps on China and Afghanistan and has persisted despite the president's visit to India last November as a consequence of political developments in both capitals." The underperformance of the bilateral relationship over the past two years is manifested in this week's decision on the aircraft tender.

Fourth, *India's decision not to shortlist the American combat aircraft was a technical determination. India's existing fleet of Russian and French aircraft, and the ground-based support infrastructure for air operations, are not closely compatible with American combat aircraft. Some argue that European fighter aircraft are more advanced than older models of U.S. combat aircraft; it is reported that several performed better in flight trials over Indian territory than their U.S. competitors. The American planes are certainly more expensive, which matters in a country with more poor people than in all of Sub-Saharan Africa. The Indian cabinet will make the ultimate political decision on the tender.
*
This is no defense of India's decision. The great benefit of a U.S. company securing the contract for 126 multi-role combat aircraft wasn't the immediate benefit of a lucrative defense sale. It was the establishment of a long-term supply and training relationship between the air forces of the world's biggest democracies, great powers with the capability to fundamentally shape security order in Asia over the coming century.

India will do fine with its Rafales or Typhoons. But it's a shame longer-range, strategic considerations didn't seem to drive this decision. Leaders in Beijing and Islamabad are probably smiling, even as those of us in Washington are not.

Why isn


----------



## Markus

Vinod2070 said:


> ^^ You prepare for the threats you face. We are getting a 5th generation fighter for our needs anyway.


 
With the US loosing the MMRCA contract, they will now go out of the way to ensure that the Indian navy expresses interest in the F35 STOVL.

In the coming months, its the Americans who are going to beg the Indian navy to buy their F35, not the other way around.


----------



## Bang Galore

*Exclusive: U.S. long feared India arms-sale snags, cable shows*

By *Jim Wolf*

*WASHINGTON | Fri Apr 29, 2011 *

*(Reuters) - The United States has fretted for years that its ties to Pakistan and past sanctions against India would harm its efforts to win arms deals such as the $11 billion fighter order that slipped away from two U.S. suppliers this week, a U.S. diplomatic cable showed.*

*"Our ability to seize the opportunities presented by this newly improved environment is limited by the commonly held view that the U.S. will not prove to be a reliable supplier of defense equipment,"* Timothy Roemer, the U.S. ambassador to India, said in an October 29, 2009, cable to Michele Flournoy, a top Pentagon official then about to visit India.

U.S. officials from President Barack Obama down subsequently pushed hard to sell U.S. fighter jets to India to crown expanding security ties. The United States also is eyeing tens of billions of dollars in other potential arms deals with India, the cable showed.

In the end, India shortlisted two European aircraft over Boeing Co's (BA.N) F/A-18 SuperHornet and Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, company officials said on Thursday.

Lockheed and Boeing are the Pentagon's No. 1 and No. 2 supplier, respectively. Each is pressing to boost sales in India, which plans to spend about $50 billion in the next five years to modernize old Soviet-era weapons and technology.

Roemer announced Thursday he was leaving his post for professional and family reasons. "The new environment" reference in his 2009 cable concerned the emergence of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's government with "a clear mandate not beholden to coalition partners" for the first time since post-Cold War U.S.-Indian strategic ties took shape.

U.S. competitors use the economic sanctions imposed by Washington after Indian nuclear tests in 1998 to try to harm U.S. sales prospects, the cable said.

*They also point to "our close defense relationship with Pakistan as rationale that the U.S. should not be trusted,"* Roemer wrote in the message obtained by the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks and made available to Reuters by a third party.

*The cable cited one unnamed source as saying the Indian army will never put U.S. equipment in divisions facing Pakistan, India's historic foe, "because they expect the U.S. will stop military supplies in the event of Indo-Pak hostilities."*

*"DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED"*

The U.S. Defense Department said on Friday it was "deeply disappointed" by rejection of the U.S. bid to supply 126 new fighter aircraft. Instead, India set up a contest between France's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon made by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain.

"We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defense partnership with India," said Navy Commander Leslie Hull-Ryde, a Pentagon spokeswoman, "and remain convinced that the United States offers our defense partners around the globe the world's most advanced and reliable technology."

She said U.S. officials were closely studying Indian-provided documentation on the short-listing decision, and looked forward to a full "debrief" from the Indian Air Force.

A State Department spokeswoman, Heide Fulton, declined to comment on Roemer's 2009 cable as a matter of policy.

A senior State Department official said the United States was not aware of any allegations of impropriety "so far" in the fighter matter. The full field included the two American planes, three Europeans and a Russian model.

Asked about the possible impact of any Indian concerns over U.S. reliability as a supplier, the official said the elimination of Boeing and Lockheed seemed to be based on technical considerations.

"I think, if anything, the concerns are that it was only made on that basis and without looking at the wider strategic implications of this," the official said.

In the past three years, India has agreed to buy some $10 billion in U.S. military hardware including six Lockheed C-130J military transport planes and eight long-range Boeing P-8 maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

Exclusive: U.S. long feared India arms-sale snags, cable shows | Reuters


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## kingdurgaking

Finally me happy that we have moved away from US on this key thing... US already are getting a huge pie... i dont understand why they are so concerned of this $10 billion... dont they understand what they have done to us so far??... we have lived in a unstable region funded by them to break us into smaller countries... yet every time they continue to supply our foe with modern tech... in 1965 they had radars of US orgin.. we had binoculors in our border... 1971 they had provided aircraft career support... sanction on top of sanctions.... they had with drawn everything on Tejas on a single day...


Finally me to shifting my favourite from EFT to Rafale.. though EFT looks good but sanctions makes them un reliable.... France had been our side for so long.. They are giving us everything we want with Rafale.... and on top Kaveri for LCA(my favourite)... 

Rafale all the way

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## GORKHALI

*INTERESTING FACTSHEETS OF RAFALE ...COURTESY BR *

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## SpArK

^^^
I have posted these before in the main thread. its interesting to see the unit procurement costs..


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## KS

SpArK said:


> India will do fine with its Rafales or Typhoons. But it's a shame longer-range, strategic considerations didn't seem to drive this decision. Leaders in Beijing and Islamabad are probably smiling, even as those of us in Washington are not.
> 
> Why isn


 
I dont know why the Yankees are taking this to their heart after all its business and nothing personal.

They are already getting about 10 billion dollar defence deals in 16 C-17s,12 P-8Is,12 C-130Js,145 M777s and an assorted group of other deals for Harpoon missiles,sensor fusion bombs etc.

Indeed they should be happy that they have got so much in such a few time, considering their history of sanctioning us even if water doesn't come in the White House loo.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> ^^^
> I have posted these before in the main thread. its interesting to see the unit procurement costs..


 

unit procurement costs is the fectory menufecturing cost of procucing , it does not cantain the RnD and the development costs..
a buyer however has to pay the program unit cost , which is very high for boh rafale anf EF..140ml$

i still think that MMRCA will be a economic blunder...


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## kingdurgaking

^^^^ one of the reason is if you have there fighter with a predominant numbers you are bound to listen to them... They want India under there boundry away from Russia and China... they can easily arm twist us in the name of sanctions....


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> I dont know why the Yankees are taking this to their heart after all its business and nothing personal.
> 
> They are already getting about 10 billion dollar defence deals in 16 C-17s,12 P-8Is,12 C-130Js,145 M777s and an assorted group of other deals for Harpoon missiles,sensor fusion bombs etc.
> 
> Indeed they should be happy that they have got so much in such a few time and considering their history of sanctioning us even if water doesn't come in the White House loo.


 
I think fighter jets are of a different league and Americans have been advocating the US jets with heavy campaigning and the tactics of pressure from diplomats saying the deal will decide what the future Indo-US relation holds. They seriously miscalculated .

If ever F-18 was among the down-select with Rafale and the catfish looking fighter , we can be rest assured that the hornet will be getting deal.. because the americans will be doing all the dirty work behind the doors and openly putting the government in a messy situation.

Its good that we have closed the door. It also means we will never fly an american fighter jet ever, unless the IN goes to pending list of F-35 orders.


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## skybolt




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## GORKHALI

*EURO FIGHTER FANS HERE'S YOUR CANDY I FOUND IN GOOGLE lol*


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## KS

SpArK said:


> I think fighter jets are of a different league and Americans have been advocating the US jets with heavy campaigning and the tactics of pressure from diplomats saying the deal will decide what the future Indo-US relation holds. They seriously miscalculated .
> 
> If ever F-18 was among the down-select with Rafale and the catfish looking fighter , we can be rest assured that the hornet will be getting deal.. because the americans will be doing all the dirty work behind the doors and openly putting the government in a messy situation.
> 
> Its good that we have closed the door. It also means we will never fly an american fighter jet ever, unless the IN goes to pending list of F-35 orders.


 
Adding to that they did not even have the best fighter in the competition - Rafale and EFT were technologically ahead of the Syper Bug.

Also it is good that we never fly American fighters with their endless LSA,CISMOA,EUMA,REEMA,KAREEMA etc - even for N-MRCA Rafale M should be selected and when it is operational a Naval version of AMCA should be developed.

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## tallboy123

skybolt said:


>


 


Wat is this??
wat does it say???

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## jha

PANDORA said:


> *EURO FIGHTER FANS HERE'S YOUR CANDY I FOUND IN GOOGLE lol*



EUROFIGHTER Fans...?

What is that supposed to mean..? You should be one yourself..Afterall at least 7-8 Squads of IAF are going to be equipped with this..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> EUROFIGHTER Fans...?
> 
> What is that supposed to mean..? You should be one yourself..Afterall at least 7-8 Squads of IAF are going to be equipped with this..


 
We had a *horent*s egg and *falcon* meat which *gripen*ed the *Fulkrum*s for starter .. we will now have an EFT for the main course... 


Long live Rafale..


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## Roby

Bang Galore said:


> The cable cited one unnamed source as saying the Indian army will never put U.S. equipment in divisions facing Pakistan, India's historic foe, "because they expect the U.S. will stop military supplies in the event of Indo-Pak hostilities.



Very true.


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## mjnaushad

tallboy123 said:


> Wat is this??
> wat does it say???


 
Same thing..... In urdu


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## tallboy123

mjnaushad said:


> Same thing..... In urdu


 
About MMRCA shortlist in Urdu??


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

*I think this is the most Thanked post in the History of PDF..!!!! *






*Looks like each and every Indian member here on PDF thanked him ....lol

And it means Number of Indians on this forum are 78 ? *


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## SpArK

B_R_I_C said:


> *I think this is the most Thanked post in the History of PDF..!!!! *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Looks like each and every Indian member here on PDF thanked him ....lol
> 
> And it means Number of Indians on this forum are 78 ? *


 
It was indeed a Thanksgiving day... more than that people were relieved that something has came up amidst all the 10 year drama...*sigh*

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## SpArK

Also point to be noted .. that bang Galore guy and few others were not that happy with this..so the number could be higher..


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## skybolt

tallboy123 said:


> About MMRCA shortlist in Urdu??


 
MMRCA Shortlist News in Urdu ...


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## Bang Galore

SpArK said:


> Also point to be noted .. that bang Galore guy and few others were not that happy with this..so the number could be higher..


 
 okay,okay! I get the message. Thought I had already thanked. Anyways, did so now. 78 thanks & you still want mine? Now 79!


----------



## RazorMC

faithfulguy said:


> Have you check the kill ratio between F-22 and F-15. No matter how many 4th generation fighter we have, once the 5th generation fighters become widely available, the 4th generation fighters would be obsolete.


 
The F-15 has yet to face F-16s, F-18s and Sukhois in combat to prove its actual prowess in air-air combat. As for 5th gen. fighters, their stealth capabilities are significantly reduced over mid and close ranges if the enemy has AWACs in the area.

And let's not forget once the clutter is removed, radars with low frequency range can detect even the mighty F-22. No more stealth, my friend. The F-22 will become outdated once these radars are distributed to everyone, courtesy of Russia and China.

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## praveen007

SpArK said:


> Also point to be noted .. that bang Galore guy and few others were not that happy with this..so the number could be higher..


 
ok, ok.
I got that sir, here gose ur thanks. Now u have 80 thanks
hope for more such thanked news from u.

Reply Reply With Quote
The Following 80 Users Say
Thank You to SpArK For This
Useful Post:
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----------



## Jacobian

Does the mmrca package also contains weapons with AC's?


----------



## Dash

RazorMC said:


> The F-15 has yet to face F-16s, F-18s and Sukhois in combat to prove its actual prowess in air-air combat. As for 5th gen. fighters, their stealth capabilities are significantly reduced over mid and close ranges if the enemy has AWACs in the area.
> 
> And let's not forget once the clutter is removed, radars with low frequency range can detect even the mighty F-22. No more stealth, my friend. The F-22 will become outdated once these radars are distributed to everyone, *courtesy of Russia and China*.


 
Can you pls tell me what L band radar China is using or trying to develope/developed?


----------



## koushik

Jacobian said:


> Does the mmrca package also contains weapons with AC's?


 
Yes.The Weapons are included along with the Aircrafts.MBDA and Raytheon would be the main Weapons Integrator

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## RazorMC

Dash said:


> Can you pls tell me what L band radar China is using or trying to develope/developed?


 
  China didn't share it with me... And I'm no expert on this matter either.

But seriously, it has been claimed that it is possible to detect the Raptor below 2GHz but that there is tremendous clutter since you are also looking at insignificant objects in the air like tiny birds etc..

Or it could be complete bluff since I was also reading an article on a Chinese site that said the F-7s (Chengdu) can also track F-22s... so I'm not sure about the reports.

Still, the possibility exists.


----------



## koushik

Dash said:


> Can you pls tell me what L band radar China is using or trying to develope/developed?


 
See this article it might help. http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/IMOP/publications/IOM-94-TECO2006/2(1)_Li-Feng-China.pdf


----------



## Dash

koushik said:


> See this article it might help. World Meteorological Organization (WMO) -



The link is not working. I tried searching for it also. Can you repost pls?


----------



## Dash

RazorMC said:


> China didn't share it with me... And I'm no expert on this matter either.
> 
> But seriously, it has been claimed that it is possible to detect the Raptor below 2GHz but that there is tremendous clutter since you are also looking at insignificant objects in the air like tiny birds etc..
> 
> Or it could be complete bluff since I was also reading an article on a Chinese site that said the F-7s (Chengdu) can also track F-22s... so I'm not sure about the reports.
> 
> Still, the possibility exists.


 
Yes, Russians have already fitted that radar onto T-50 anyway to track stealth fighters. You can always track an F-22 but not as the same distance you will track an MKI or an F-16.

Anyway I was looking for a source if China has made it.


----------



## hembo

B_R_I_C said:


> *I think this is the most Thanked post in the History of PDF..!!!! *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Looks like each and every Indian member here on PDF thanked him ....lol
> 
> And it means Number of Indians on this forum are 78 ? *


 
It's 85 thanks now.. I am still burning with jealousy for Sparky.. as if he needed any more thanks.. He has so many already...

BTW I tracked three non-Indians (one Chinese, one Pakistani & one Bangladeshi) and one half Indian (genmirajborgza786) in the list by my H(hembo)-band radder... So you need to revise your calculation.. lol

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## dbc

Markus said:


> In the coming months, its the Americans who are going to beg the Indian navy to buy their F35, not the other way around.



Beg India? I'm just blown away by the arrogance on display here.

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## koushik

Dash said:


> Yes, Russians have already fitted that radar onto T-50 anyway to track stealth fighters. You can always track an F-22 but not as the same distance you will track an MKI or an F-16.
> 
> Anyway I was looking for a source if China has made it.


 
Yes,Dash the russians have installed the X-Band N050 AESA Radar on the PAK FA's fuselage and L-Band radar of the same type on the Aircraft's wings.The radar is based on IRBIS-E PESA Radar.

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------




Dash said:


> Yes, Russians have already fitted that radar onto T-50 anyway to track stealth fighters. You can always track an F-22 but not as the same distance you will track an MKI or an F-16.
> 
> Anyway I was looking for a source if China has made it.


 
Can you plz how many posts have I submitted? Yes,Dash the russians have installed the X-Band N050 AESA Radar on the PAK FA's fuselage and L-Band radar of the same type on the Aircraft's wings.The radar is based on IRBIS-E PESA Radar.


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## faithfulguy

Markus said:


> With the US loosing the MMRCA contract, they will now go out of the way to ensure that the Indian navy expresses interest in the F35 STOVL.
> 
> In the coming months, its the Americans who are going to beg the Indian navy to buy their F35, not the other way around.


 
No, I don't think US need India to buy the F-35. Why would you buy anything American if you think that America will easily sanction India. You should withdraw all purchases from the US. US defense industry will do just fine without any India purchase.


----------



## JanjaWeed

hembo said:


> It's 84 thanks now.. I am still burning with jealousy for Sparky.. as if he needed any more thanks.. He has so many already...
> 
> BTW I detected two non-Indians (one Chinese & one Bangladeshi) and one half Indian (genmirajborgza786) in the list... So you need to revise your calculation.. lol


 
you know what? i'v been saving my 100th thanks for a meaningful post. now that this seems to be the most thanked thread, it's only appropriate that i use my 100th one for this one!! here it goes.. 85 now!!

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## SpArK

JanjaWeed said:


> you know what? i'v been saving my 100th thanks for a meaningful post. now that this seems to be the most thanked thread, it's only appropriate that i use my 100th one for this one!! here it goes.. 85 now!!


 
I wish.... i could redeem all these thanks to food or purchase coupons.


----------



## JanjaWeed

SpArK said:


> I wish.... i could redeem all these thanks to food or purchase coupons.


 
lol.. maybe you should ask the admins for immunity from banning! once you have that you can go bezerk!!


----------



## Dash

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Beg India? I'm just blown away by the arrogance on display here.



May be he was arrogant, and why not be, when US is considering redrafting of teh entire export control laws coz they lost in India. I mean US never did it for anyother country. But one loss in MRCA is making you change it. 

I mean if its not such a big deal to beg India to buy F-35, why change the laws then??.
I mean isnt it significant enough to say that, we can say we changed you?? but not in arrogance though.

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## anathema

Dash said:


> May be he was arrogant, and why not be, when US is considering redrafting of teh entire export control laws coz they lost in India. I mean US never did it for anyother country. But one loss in MRCA is making you change it.
> 
> I mean if its not such a big deal to beg India to buy F-35, why change the laws then??.
> I mean isnt it significant enough to say that, we can say we changed you?? but not in arrogance though.


 

US changing export control laws ??? When did that happen ?? All i have seen a bunch of reports which proclaimed that US may have lost out the deal due to the 'control laws' but so far no indication that it is going to change laws !!


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

hembo said:


> It's 85 thanks now.. I am still burning with jealousy for Sparky.. as if he needed any more thanks.. He has so many already...
> 
> BTW I tracked three non-Indians (one Chinese, one Pakistani & one Bangladeshi) and one half Indian (genmirajborgza786) in the list by my H(hembo)-band radder... So you need to revise your calculation.. lol


 

Its time for you to look again its *87 Now!!*  Just hoping that it may turn into Century...

Lets see if we can make it..


----------



## notorious_eagle

Markus said:


> With the US loosing the MMRCA contract, they will now go out of the way to ensure that the Indian navy expresses interest in the F35 STOVL.
> 
> In* the coming months, its the Americans who are going to beg the Indian navy to buy their F35, not the other way around*.



This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.

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## Dash

anathema said:


> US changing export control laws ??? When did that happen ?? All i have seen a bunch of reports which proclaimed that US may have lost out the deal due to the 'control laws' but so far no indication that it is going to change laws !!



Yes its true, Google it you will find it. I just have the link with me. I will share as soon as I get it.

Also not that Mr Roemer resigning just few hours after MRCA news got released should tell us who was lobbying for what...


----------



## Dash

notorious_eagle said:


> This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.



Dude, there is no dispute on US being a super power. Its a great country which still has the ability to change world politics.

But you are forgetting one thing. They will get business, but not offensive business unless they change some rules. You know in near future they cant be seen as competetive if they dont do that. You can see we are buying more defensive weapons than offensive from US. 
So if US was so powerful then why couldnt it influence GOI. Why the ambassador resigned just after US fighters went out of the competition.???

It means buddy. $$$ is what everybody needs and for business you need to bow down to customer. Gone are those days...

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## RazorMC

Dash said:


> Yes, Russians have already fitted that radar onto T-50 anyway to track stealth fighters. You can always track an F-22 but not as the same distance you will track an MKI or an F-16.
> 
> Anyway I was looking for a source if China has made it.



The distance from which it can be tracked using newer Russian radars maybe around the 15 km mark. Adding AWACs to the equation increases this distance, but BVR is still out of the question, unless it is the F-22 that is employing it.

Here's a couple of links that interested me though:
TAMARA and VERA

This shows that while the stealth aircraft cannot be detected in a silent flight, they can give their locations away if they use their radars. Don't know whether this takes AESA into account or not. 1 F-117 was tracked and shot down
There is enough reason to believe that China already had accessed this tech and can develop it further.

Here's another thing to think about. The Rafale already has a low RCS in combat but once the weapons are removed and there are fewer surfaces reflecting to the radar. I imagine that the Rafale can become nearly invisible on earlier radars.

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## axisofevil

Karthic Sri said:


> I dont know why the Yankees are taking this to their heart after all its business and nothing personal.
> 
> They are already getting about 10 billion dollar defence deals in 16 C-17s,12 P-8Is,12 C-130Js,145 M777s and an assorted group of other deals for Harpoon missiles,sensor fusion bombs etc.
> 
> Indeed they should be happy that they have got so much in such a few time, considering their history of sanctioning us even if water doesn't come in the White House loo.


 

Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962


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## Nirvana

axisofevil said:


> Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962


 
???????????


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## drunken-monke

After all thoes long years we came to know here the news which would surely feel all us on PDF very very satisfactory. The fighters which deserve to be the finalist are there even if anyone giving $hit about this. Now the when one question is being solved, the other one arises. Which will be the ultimate winner and how many months/years would it take for that ?? Second thing what would be the aftermath after rejecting the US warplanes. It is sure that US wanted to control the aggressive policy of India by selling their toys to IAF. I must say Indian Policy makers did very well by declaring the Europeans as shortlisted. Now can we speculate US apathy towards the Indian Defence Market?? I dont think so.. Beyond this 11 bn $ there is a lot more and huge market the US defence industry can capitalized.. In some other threads Sparky has posted that Pentagon though disappointed, wont stop its defence ties with India. And the examples are C130, P 8, C17, Chinook hellis, Apache Hellis, harpoon missiles, vessels, Howitzers about 150 odds, and may be many more.. 
US seeks a counter weight to China in the region, but India should co-operate with China as well as with Pakistan and dont have any hot time with them. This doesnt mean that India should completely ignore US. 
Out of two euro canards, rafale would be better choice since
1. Lesser cost than that of EFT
2. Fast dilivery of Fighter jets
3. IAF fighters aware of French systems
4. SPECTRA EWS would be great
5. Good weapons package (Almost the same as EFT)
6. As few reports indicated it performed well than EFT
and the list is long

so my choice Rafale.
regards


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## tushar

@RazorMC 
Nice piece of information....



> This shows that while the stealth aircraft cannot be detected in a silent flight, they can give their locations away if they use their radars. Don't know whether this takes AESA into account or not.


Well in case of aesa they can't hold on to the frequency of the radar as it keeps on changing...



> 1 F-117 was tracked and shot down
> There is enough reason to believe that China already had accessed this tech and can develop it further.


A stealth fighter is not 100 % invisible....it just have very low RCS....although it can't be normally detected but their are many radars which can detect them....and i think during an operation, stealth fighter is bound to reflect some radiation which might cause its detection....although in comparison to other fighter of 4th gen they survivability is way more....

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## tallboy123

axisofevil said:


> Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962


 
ur wrong...it was 1971...AMericans sent nuclear powered Carrier to support pakistan....against india...can't forget that so early


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## drunken-monke

tallboy123 said:


> ur wrong...it was 1971...AMericans sent nuclear powered Carrier to support pakistan....against india...can't forget that so early


 
that was the seventh fleet and russia sent its nuclear powered submarine trailing it till Jan 1972. IAF pilots were ready to take plane and slam it into US aircraft. it was president nixon's order to send Aircraft carrier in Indian waters.


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## GORKHALI

B_R_I_C said:


> Its time for you to look again its *87 Now!!*  Just hoping that it may turn into Century...
> 
> Lets see if we can make it..


 
If you look at my Total Posts Vs Thanked Posts ,you will find that am the one still leading   
Cheers


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## blackops

axisofevil said:


> Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962


 


fcuk i dont know my countries history


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## blackops

only 11 more to go for a *100*


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## KS

drunken-monke said:


> that was the seventh fleet and russia sent its nuclear powered submarine trailing it till Jan 1972. *IAF pilots were ready to take plane and slam it into US aircraft*. it was president nixon's order to send Aircraft carrier in Indian waters.


 
Thats interesting info.

Is it true - i mean you have any sources - or just made that up after watching Pearl Harbor ? 



axisofevil said:


> Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962


 
That was in 1971 when USS Enterprise entered the BoB. and btw in 1962 US helped us against China - only the help reached a bit late to change the outcome of the war.


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## vamsi

notorious_eagle said:


> This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.


 
the thing is it doesn't stop there... with the US restricting its defence budget and 11 billion$ isnt the total Net amount, once u buy those jets then again upgrades and their dependency systems after couple of yrs etc.. u need to consider all those whistles too again India is also planning to increase the number from 120 jets to 200 odd once this goes through.. all these will be linked together...

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## faithfulguy

vamsi said:


> the thing is it doesn't stop there... with the US restricting its defence budget and 11 billion$ isnt the total Net amount, once u buy those jets then again upgrades and their dependency systems after couple of yrs etc.. u need to consider all those whistles too again India is also planning to increase the number from 120 jets to 200 odd once this goes through.. all these will be linked together...


 
This is indeed would be a big deal for the US. But its a even bigger deal for the Europeans, especially the Russians. This could signal the end of the MiG corp. Of the 2 European companies, Dassault would need the deal more than Eurofighter.


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## dbc

Dash said:


> May be he was arrogant, and why not be, when US is considering redrafting of teh entire export control laws coz they lost in India. I mean US never did it for anyother country. But one loss in MRCA is making you change it.
> 
> I mean if its not such a big deal to beg India to buy F-35, why change the laws then??.
> I mean isnt it significant enough to say that, we can say we changed you?? but not in arrogance though.



This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
in the present world where self-intrests are the only priority , nobody trusting any other...

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## Bang Galore

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Beg India? I*'m just blown away by the arrogance on display here.*


 
You are? That's proof that you are not spending enough time on this forum.




notorious_eagle said:


> This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.



You are absolutely correct. However, that's probably the reason that they didn't get the contract. Not hungry enough, not desperate enough! The Europeans were probably more amenable to pressure since this contract could ostensibly decide future viability of the platform. They really would have no reason to hold back on technology if the alternative would be a complete loss of their industry. Boeing was limited by what the U.S. government decided was enough & faced no imminent financial destruction because of the very reasons pointed out by you (the same holds true about LM though the F-16 was never in any serious consideration). Any Indian order would have been just the icing on the cake, even if a very welcome one.

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## Bang Galore

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
Unfortunately, it seems that no exception (or not enough of one) was made in this case. Alarm bells should have been ringing when the F-18 fared poorly (reportedly) in the high altitude trials. The trump card for the U.S. was the AESA radar. Unfortunately it seems that were not willing (again reportedly) to share technology completely on that. Once AESA was discounted. the odds were tilted heavily against them. The U.S. barked up the wrong tree with all the stress on a strategic relationship. While most people in India want a close relationship with the U.S. (some members on this forum excepted), no one was just willing to prioritise that over better performing aircrafts. As one former Ambassador to the U.S. put it -* " Nobody wants to lose a war to win a strategic ally"*. Even if that was hyperbole, the U.S. needed to do more than what it did to overcome Indian fears. I had pointed out earlier that I thought it was the U.S.'s contract to lose; unfortunately they did nothing to avert that outcome.

_*(The recent scams & the rap on the knuckles that the government has been getting from its auditors (CAG) made it almost impossible for the government to overrule IAF's technical evaluation. What was needed was a game changing offer by the Americans to convince the IAF but unfortunately that wasn't forthcoming. Hence the result.)*_

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## satishkumarcsc

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
Well US was never a trusted partner. India never cried 'natural partners', 'strategic allies' or anything else. India does things in intrest of its own people and it's perception of the Geo-Political scenario. US already have it's pockets filled for a new entrant. 

French and the Europeans have been doing business with India for almost 4 decades to 6 decades. The US just entered the market and crying foul they lost out is not fair. Even the US establishment knows it. EF was a last minute change as we both know who were running upfront. in the last 3 months a lot of things happened that pissed of the Indian think-tanks and I dont think I can say it here and you too know what happened behind the scenes. So I think calling them 'shenanigans' is not right.


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## ramu

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
India cannot be trusted by those who are inconsistent themselves. India can always be trusted by those whom India trusts. It is a two way highway.

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## Markus

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.



Ok Ok got it. May be the word "beg" was put to incorrect use. But I certainly didn't mean "actual begging" as the beggars do on the road 

With the MMRCA gone, I understand F-16 production lines may end in two years until more orders comes in. The F-18 production may continue until few more years or whatever.

The point is that its more strategic than mere military sales. Most military deals are recurring in nature, atleast in the fighter industry. A 126 MMRCA plane contract today has the potential of turning into a 260 plane contract tomorrow, this is something which is already a possibility. This allows the US, the largest weapons manufacturer a stronghold in India, which is the largest weapons importer in the world and which is planning to buy even more from the outside in the future.

US weapons in the hands of the Indian military means cross compliance and inter interoperability of war machines between both the nations, also this increases US leverage in New Delhi, will also open up more opportunities for more US firms to step in and offer even more.

With MMRCA gone for the US, the F-35 for the Indian navy is "the only possibility" for them to hack into the Indian market.

I hope I am clear and this post is also meant for ppl who nodded their heads along with you.


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## Markus

faithfulguy said:


> No, I don't think US need India to buy the F-35. *Why would you buy anything American if you think that America will easily sanction India. *You should withdraw all purchases from the US. US defense industry will do just fine without any India purchase.


 
But if that is the case then why is India buying C17's and C130J's ?

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## Markus

notorious_eagle said:


> This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. *Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract*.


 
My horses and quietly sleeping in their stables and I would ask you to keep that numbers to yourself, I play those number games at a level thats probably beyond scope.

Post #1136 is my answer to the remaining part.

Let me know what you dont understand.


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## Markus

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. *Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.*


 
Wow, excuse me !!!

If India cannot be trusted then why come to New Delhi, seal a deal on C17's and C130J's and then broadcast a message back home that "I have created 50000 new jobs for Americans" ?

You know whom I am talking of.


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## Dash

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.



There are saner people who are running the US government and not like this comment "India cant be trusted". In last one year you have been given this..

1. 10 Globemaster deal 
2. 6 C130J possibly an additional order of additional 6 more
3. 8 P8I posiodons
4. Considering buying some more naval vessels
5. 3 VIP business jets.
6. 99 Engines for LCA Mk2 and oders will surely increase to 200.

and many more to come. The total amount of current dealing stands at more than $11 billion. you have been given more than MRCA. 
Remember - Trust is a mutual stuff, you dont trust us in CISMOA, IRTA and other stuff and we dont trust you there. Period.

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## kingdurgaking

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
I think we are not the one who cannot be trusted... it was US who are in deeper relation with Pakistan.. giving new F-16 armed with harpoon for WoT.. dont you think it isnt funny??....

Secondly MMRCA was a very open and transparent process.. if IAF feel Boeing/LM didnt suit there requirement it doesnt mean it is a bad plane... just for Indian geography it didnt suit...

thridly IAF needs plane and not strategic relationship here..... if IAF had new planes and comes with a slam of sanction in future?? what is the need of such plane.... Butter we can go for a trusted partner like France by paying some extra money.... Even IAF will be suspicious about EADS consortium for the sanctions slapped after 1998.... 

India was alone so far.... and we will be doing fine...

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## my name is arya

notorious_eagle said:


> This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.


 
well honey it will just for you and i am sure 11billion is much more money for pak 

think how will be IAF with below list 

SU30MKI
PAK-FA
LCA2
RAFFALE
MCA
mirrage 2000

ahh is there any single chance for PAF against IAF no buddy not even 5%


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## Ignited Mind

my name is arya said:


> well honey it will just for you and i am sure 11billion is much more money for pak
> 
> think how will be IAF with below list
> 
> SU30MKI
> PAK-FA
> LCA2
> RAFFALE
> MCA
> mirrage 2000
> 
> ahh is there any single chance for PAF against IAF no buddy not even 5%


 
Please do not insult our efforts by comparing ourselves with PAF. 

We are doing all this mehnat for China, not for Pakistan. Pakistanis will, most probably, never even see anything more than LCA2 and MCA at best.


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## my name is arya

Ignited Mind said:


> Please do not insult our efforts by comparing ourselves with PAF.
> 
> We are doing all this mehnat for China, not for Pakistan. Pakistanis will, most probably, never even see anything more than LCA2 and MCA at best.


 

right buddy i was just replying him


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## Zabaniyah

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.


 
India can be trusted in America's perspective. Especially in the post 9/11 world. As mentioned by dash, America has supplied India with American made equipment.

India is currently the largest importer of weapons. Nearly 70% of its inventory are imported.
BBC News - India is world&#039;s &#039;largest importer&#039; of arms, says study

To be honest, the F-16s and F-18s were not good enough to meet the IAF requirements. At least the Americans could have come up with a better proposition. 

The Europeans would fare better in the global arms market now and the near future unless the Americans come up with better propositions relating to combat aircraft being supplied to India. India would make a great customer. Perhaps even greater than those Middle Easterners.

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## koushik

500 said:


> Question which missiles Rafale will use if selected: MICA? AMRAAM? R-77? Which targeting pod - Damocles, Litening III?


 
Rafale will use Damocles targetting pod,MBDA Meteor,MBDA mica


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## SpArK

ASMP amélioré - Rafale - Armée de l'Air

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## SpArK



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## koushik




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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> I think we are not the one who cannot be trusted... it was US who are in deeper relation with Pakistan.. giving new F-16 armed with harpoon for WoT.. dont you think it isnt funny??....
> 
> Secondly MMRCA was a very open and transparent process.. if IAF feel Boeing/LM didnt suit there requirement it doesnt mean it is a bad plane... just for Indian geography it didnt suit...
> 
> thridly IAF needs plane and not strategic relationship here..... *if IAF had new planes and comes with a slam of sanction in future?? what is the need of such plane.... Butter we can go for a trusted partner like France by paying some extra money.... Even IAF will be suspicious about EADS consortium for the sanctions slapped after 1998.... *
> 
> India was alone so far.... and we will be doing fine...


 
Not only sanctions.. we have to run for approval from the now angry Unkil Sam ..

One like this every now and then

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## Break the Silence

The $10bn jet fighter deal: IAF went by the rule book

New Delhi, May 1 (IANS) Indias decision to shortlist two European combat planes for a $10.4 billion tender for 126 multi-role jet fighters was dictated by its air forces technical evaluation of the six contenders and geopolitics played a minor role in it, say officials and experts about the decision that left two US aerospace majors out of the race despite aggressive marketing and buoyant Indo-US relations.
We have gone entirely by the rule book. The defence procurement procedure dictates the MMRCA tender process, a senior defence ministry official told IANS on condition of anonymity, referring to the race for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract.
India had April 27 asked European consortium EADS Cassidian and French Dassault to continue in the race for 126 MMRCA contract, while conveying to US firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russias United Aircraft Corp and Swedens SAAB that their planes had not made the cut.
Keen Indian military aviation watchers Air Commodore Jasjit Singh and Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak too concurred with the ministry official, but pointed out that the down select was not a rejection of the other planes but an indication of what suited the IAFs future operational plans best and at the right cost.
The IAF has only stated that the two European combat planes met most of the 643 parameters for selection of the MMRCA and are the most profitable. It has not rejected the other aircraft, said KaK, a former IAF pilot.
The IAF recommends on the basis of its assessment and evaluation of what it needs and the government takes a call on it. The broader strategic considerations will come in much later at the political leadership level, Kak told IANS.
The firms always knew that non-compliance will eliminate them from the contest, said Jasjit Singh, a decorated IAF officer and director of the IAF think tank Centre for Air Power Studies.
He also drew attention to Defence Minister A.K. Antonys refrain on the tender process being transparent till the end.
An IAF officer in the know of the evaluation process said none of the six aircraft had fulfilled all 643 parameters, but the European (Germany, Spain, Britain and Italy) consortiums Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale had done well on more parameters than others.
The trials were held in Bangalore, high altitude Leh and Jodhpur desert and at a location of the firms choice for their weapons. The contract will be awarded before March 2012.
Though IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik is on record that the CISMOA communications interoperability agreement mandatory under US laws for transfer of high-end technology to India was irrelevant, the non-signing of the pact would mean restrictions on the planes operational capability.
The government will not accept any limitation (due to CISMOA) on the technology transfer. The US did take the DRDO off the entity list that restricted transfer of dual use technology by American firms. But that meant nothing because DRDO needs nothing from the Americans at present, Jasjit Singh said.
From 2005 to 2008, the Americans went on their limb to help India end nuclear apartheid by signing the civilian nuclear deal despite the discriminatory Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. But that doesnt mean India should do a quid pro quo. We are going to use the fighter jet now selected for another 40 to 50 years, Kak said. 
India is also wary of US arms supply to Pakistan, particularly the F-16s. We are not their ally, but Pakistan is. There can be no compulsions in bilateral relations, Kak added.
In recent years, India has awarded some major defence deals to both the new friend US and trusted partner Russia to keep them happy but now it is the turn of the Europeans to reap the benefits.
The US won the $2.1 billion contract for P8I naval patrol aircraft and the C-130J transporter for special operations. It is also likely to sign the $5.8 billion contract for 10 C-17 heavylifters. Russia walked away with a $30-billion deal for 250 fifth generation fighters and 50 medium transport aircraft.
In such a scenario, India may not like to put all its eggs in one or two baskets. It would like to spread the wealth around, another serving IAF officer said.
The $10bn jet fighter deal: IAF went by the rule book


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## SpArK

US never gonna leave us 

Gov approval given for Saudi Eurofighter sale ? The Register


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## kingdurgaking

^^^^ Hoppingly Rafale wins the deal... 

Can we have some light whether we will GaN module or GaS module with Rafale?.... Hoping Sancho or some one will throw light....

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## JanjaWeed

SpArK said:


> US never gonna leave us
> 
> Gov approval given for Saudi Eurofighter sale ? The Register


 
hmm.. so that means EF is out of contention as well? french must be rubbing their hands with glee!!

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## Dash

JanjaWeed said:


> hmm.. so that means EF is out of contention as well? french must be rubbing their hands with glee!!



Thats one side, but we cant say that US willl deny BAE systems the rights to sell its own aircraft. The four countries will have a serious problem with US if it does so. So in my view US will by all means approve the sale of its tech. Needless to say BAE is the 3rd majot defense supplier in US.


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## SpArK

JanjaWeed said:


> hmm.. so that means EF is out of contention as well? french must be rubbing their hands with glee!!


 
Its old news and everybody knows it too.. thats why EFT was chosen..

Also if we chose the consortium we will be having *Germany* who in last month blocked Indian oil payments to Iran under *US pressure*? 

Or the Italy who opposes India's candidate ship in UNSC and wants to talk about J &K more..

Or the Spada selling Spain ... 

And also who is going to give the shares from their account to India, if chosen as a partner???... Is it from 46% share of UK, or is it of Germany.... ???

Also it would be a pleasure for HAL to co ordinate the logistics between the 100s and thousands of small companies spread across the Europe and build it fast..

Considering our previous issues on aftersales including UK, it would now resemble a government office scenario now..
For any issues regarding spares , upgrades or whatever .. when we ask for a decision or opinion .. we will be hearing "ask the german guy " from UK guy and "ask the Italian guy" from the Spain.. 

Its gonna be so much fun

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## KS

Break the Silence said:


> &#8216;From 2005 to 2008, the Americans went on their limb to help India end nuclear apartheid by signing the civilian nuclear deal despite the discriminatory Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. *But that doesn&#8217;t mean India should do a quid pro quo.* We are going to use the fighter jet now selected for another 40 to 50 years,&#8217; Kak said.


 
Feeling sorry for the Yankees. Hope they dont take it to heart 



SpArK said:


> US never gonna leave us
> 
> Gov approval given for Saudi Eurofighter sale ? The Register


 
Good find Benny.

One more reason, solid reason, why the catfish must be thrown out.

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## JanjaWeed

OMG.. you guys are making me to lean towards rafale more & more! this is not good. last option.. BAE will do what they did in Al-Yamamah deal! they need to find a prince bandar in india soon to sort this deal out!!


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> Feeling sorry for the Yankees. Hope they dont take it to heart
> 
> 
> 
> Good find Benny.
> 
> One more reason, solid reason, why the catfish must be thrown out.


 
A2G is the need of the hour (doctrine) and everybody agrees Raffy scores on that above EFT also not to forget the massive weapons load along with 5 wet points which even the Su-30 MKI's dont have.. not to talk about the range... 

Im sure the newer engine will be more maintainable and would shut up the thrust talks... 

After all France is the nation which produces the fastest and most powerful production car in the world in Bugatti Veyron


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## WHITESMOKE

Finally i read all the posts in this thread.. you know now one need to spend alot more time on PDF these days as this single thread on fire is making hell difficult to keep up with pace.  Well as i am not eligible to vote, but still i choose Raffy... Hey anyone remember that pic of raffy with beautiful frenchie Bebe ?? So we would be getting that one also with this deal??? 

And SpArK, its 93 thanx now...

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## Dash

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^^ Hoppingly Rafale wins the deal...
> 
> Can we have some light whether we will GaN module or GaS module with Rafale?.... Hoping Sancho or some one will throw light....



There is no aircraft today which will produce enough power to support GaN modules. GaN modules can produce better range and require enough power and enough cooling systems. US is still 3-4 years away in mastering Gallium Nitride AESA radars. Due to teh power requirement for GaNs its only said today that big aircrafts can only afford such AESAs. 

Rafale will surely have GaS modules.


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## Dash

Karthic Sri said:


> Good find Benny.
> 
> One more reason, solid reason, why the catfish must be thrown out.


 
Catfish will be thrown out, but not for this reason (coz it can still be worked out).

Rather for this reason -

Its a simple fact that we wont pay too much for too less.


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## SpArK

and






and






and






and







Is a deadly mix.

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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> A2G is the need of the hour (doctrine) and everybody agrees Raffy scores on that above EFT also not to forget the massive weapons load along with 5 wet points which even the Su-30 MKI's dont have.. not to talk about the range...
> 
> Im sure the newer engine will be more maintainable and would shut up the thrust talks...
> 
> After all France is the nation which produces the fastest and most powerful production car in the world in Bugatti Veyron


 
MKI doesnt have any wet point but enough internal fuel of 9 tonne same as Rafale with 3 external tanks of 1200 litre(each weighs 1 tonne)... In addition to it carries 8 * 0.5 tonne LGB... and in future Brahmos.. which Rafale can never do...


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> MKI doesnt have any wet point but enough internal fuel of 9 tonne same as Rafale with 3 external tanks of 1200 litre(each weighs 1 tonne)... In addition to it carries 8 * 0.5 tonne LGB... and in future Brahmos.. which Rafale can never do...


 
well it carries ASMP.. we can never rule out that..if it gets miniaturizing..


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## Ignited Mind

SpArK said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/...Is a deadly mix.[/QUOTE]
> 
> You forgot: [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qn2M0fyLEeo/TG7FDoioKcI/AAAAAAAAAGs/tzbiAOEC8fM/s1600/mcaai2009.JPG


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## SpArK

Ignited Mind said:


> You forgot:


 
Nope .. I left it due to lack of a nice pic.. also left out mirage .. since its been said Raffy cleared the Leh and other tests better than EFT, the mirages might get a buy back order from Frenchmen as a bonus..


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## tushar

> the mirages might get a buy back order from Frenchmen as a bonus..


Please tell me they are willing to give us rafale in exchange.....


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> well it carries ASMP.. we can never rule out that..if it gets miniaturizing..


 
MKI carries heavier missile than this man... 3 * KH59 MK...


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## PLAYIN

every1 is going for raffy.................. hmmm.


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## tallboy123

It will be Rafale............EF has many disadvantages technically and politacally too...
Whereas in rafale we deal with one nation ,one company and Full ToT...

*
I must say Rafale is the best deal!!!*


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## rockstarIN

Full of Rafale fans...no EFT ppl?


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## JanjaWeed

PLAYIN said:


> every1 is going for raffy.................. hmmm.


 
ya.. even i'm starting to change my mind! it's better to put money on winning horse! bunch of glory hunters, we are!!


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## tallboy123

> *The US government has given its approval for the sale of sensitive military technology to the Saudis in the form of Eurofighter combat jets developed cooperatively by the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.*



Gov approval given for Saudi Eurofighter sale ? The Register


*That's the strong reason for us not to go for EF....all EF fans take a looks at that report...*
*
Do u think US will allow India to get sensitive tech from EF without US giving permission to UK,spain,Germany,Italy to do so???*


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## SpArK

tallboy123 said:


> It will be Rafale............EF has many disadvantages technically and politacally too...
> Whereas in rafale we deal with one nation ,one company and Full ToT...
> 
> *
> I must say Rafale is the best deal!!!*


 
Not to forget the strategic advantage ... French has been aggressive and denied technologies to our adversaries... but a group of nations cant be influenced.

One nation is always better.


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## tallboy123

Now i'm 1000% against EF and 100000% favor for Rafale!!!!!

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## koushik

I really love the Eurofighter Typhoon but in the IAF MMRCA Deal i think Rafale would be a wiser and better option.Which aircraft do you like?


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## tallboy123

*Purchase of Rafale has political,strategic,technical,ToT advantage against EF..period.....*


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## foxbat

And dont forget, French birds (chicks) are best looking


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## SpArK

Compare

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale

and

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Eurofighter_Typhoon


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## WAQAS119

Also PAF pilots have been flying Saudi EFTs so they have pretty good knowledge of EFT. India would be first customer of Rafale since its birth so would be a surprise package for PAF. But this fact surprises me too that a plane which didn't get it's single customer since its introduction in 2000 gets a such a huge order?


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## SpArK

WAQAS119 said:


> Also *PAF pilots have been flying Saudi EFTs* so they have pretty good knowledge of EFT. India would be first customer of Rafale since its birth so would be a surprise package for PAF. But this fact surprises me too that a plane which didn't get it's single customer since its introduction in 2000 gets a such a huge order?


 
Bro can you confirm that.. cause i need to bash some EFT fans here..


----------



## kingdurgaking

PLAYIN said:


> every1 is going for raffy.................. hmmm.


 
EFT is prone for sanctions... do you want this to happen?.. there was a news i read some time back.. when one of the gear box developed by BAe... has to be repaired and was sent to UK... the next week we blasted Nuke and the gear box never returned to Indian navy for 4 years


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## koushik

Choosing the Rafale would be an advantageous decision indeed because it is a complete aircraft with matured air-to-air ,ground attack capabilities.France will provide full ToT for the RBE2 AA AESA Radar.moreover the Rafale has commonality with Mirage 2000 so the logistics will be simplified.


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## WAQAS119

SpArK said:


> Bro can you confirm that.. cause i need to bash some EFT fans here..


 
Not sure as this is what I have read in this forum few months back


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## kingdurgaking

WAQAS119 said:


> Also PAF pilots have been flying Saudi EFTs so they have pretty good knowledge of EFT. India would be first customer of Rafale since its birth so would be a surprise package for PAF. But this fact surprises me too that a plane which didn't get it's single customer since its introduction in 2000 gets a such a huge order?


 
There is a chance for this.. but i doubt they will be given hands from day one.. it will take more than half a decade for them to take a look until the service contracts get shifted


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## koushik

Rafale uses M-88 turbofan engines manufactured by Snecma-Lazrac and the GTRE has a partnership with Snecma to update the Kaveri engines with a higher thrust and so there is a high possibility of Snecma integrating a fine tuned version of the Kaveri on the Rafale in future.


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## SpArK

koushik said:


> Rafale uses M-88 turbofan engines manufactured by Snecma-Lazrac and the GTRE has a partnership with Snecma to update the Kaveri engines with a higher thrust and so there is a high possibility of Snecma integrating a fine tuned version of the Kaveri on the Rafale in future.


 
Add AMCA and LCA too.. our own engine in all our fighters.


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## tallboy123

*So when will be the winner announced????? next year????*


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## Ammyy

tallboy123 said:


> *So when will be the winner announced????? next year????*


 
commercial bids were expired at 31/12/11 so i think they will decide before that


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## koushik

SpArK said:


> Add AMCA and LCA too.. our own engine in all our fighters.


 
Ya.I almost forgot LCA-2 and AMCA.It would be a really proud moment.


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## koushik

tallboy123 said:


> *So when will be the winner announced????? next year????*


Air Chief Marshall P.V Naik said that the MMRCA shortlist would be announced by end April 2011 and he was correct about it and he said that the MMRCA winner would be announced by september 2011.

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## jha

koushik said:


> Ya.I almost forgot *LCA-2* and AMCA.It would be a really proud moment.



Forget LCA, Kaveri will never power LCA even with upgraded thrust..It will be used in AMCA only when DRDO gets its acts together because IAF is not impressed by this JV DRDO is proposing with Snecma and wants a complete indian powerplant for next indigenous fighter..


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## Ignited Mind

jha said:


> Forget LCA, Kaveri will never power LCA even with upgraded thrust..It will be used in AMCA only when DRDO gets its acts together because IAF is not impressed by this JV DRDO is proposing with Snecma and wants a complete indian powerplant for next indigenous fighter..


 
I don't understand why DRDO went with this JV anyway. 

Wasn't the whole point of embarking on the kaveri project to develop a 100% indigenous engines?


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Forget LCA, Kaveri will never power LCA even with upgraded thrust..It will be used in AMCA only when DRDO gets its acts together because IAF is not impressed by this JV DRDO is proposing with Snecma and wants a complete indian powerplant for next indigenous fighter..


 
Thats an age old argument.. how different it will be an indigineous and JV could be...

IAF happy with JV 5th gen, JV Brahmos ,JV in many others but not engine... bull ...


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## Ignited Mind

SpArK said:


> Thats an age old argument.. how different it will be an indigineous and JV could be...
> 
> IAF happy with JV 5th gen, JV Brahmos ,JV in many others but not engine... bull ...


 
Engine is the most basic technology. That's why. 

You have an indigenous engine, you have everything at your disposal. You can make fighters, commercial jets, in whatever numbers you want at any time of the year you want. You can aler the technology the way you want. Nobody can stop you. 

You bring a foreign element in the engine, you are always tied to the whims of that foreign country. Without their consent, you cannot make a damn aircraft, you cannot sell a damn aircraft.

An engine can be sold without an aircraft but an aircraft cannot be sold without an engine.

There's a reason why major countries like China spare so many effort just to make an indigenous engine. 

Engine is that key which can open the whole doors of aviation industry to you.


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## SpArK

Ignited Mind said:


> Engine is the most basic technology. That's why.
> 
> You have an indigenous engine, you have everything at your disposal. You can make fighters, commercial jets, in whatever numbers you want at any time of the year you want. You can aler the technology the way you want. Nobody can stop you.
> 
> You bring a foreign element in the engine, you are always tied to the whims of that foreign country. Without their consent, you cannot make a damn aircraft, you cannot sell a damn aircraft.


 
So you are saying we will be having problem with a Joint venture *Kaveri* ..??

The use of that JV engine depends on the consent of France... hmmm Interesting...


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## Ignited Mind

SpArK said:


> So you are saying we will be having problem with a Joint venture *Kaveri* ..??



No not necessarily. Not as long as you are on good terms with france but the day your relationship turns sour, you will start experiencing all kinds of objections from their side. 

It's simple. The one who owns the technology, owns the product.

The use of the engine per se will not depend on france but how you use their technology, what kind of engines you make with their technology, how you alter their technology, how many engines you produce with their technology, to whom you sell those engines with their technology...all of this depends on France AS WELL.

Their tech., their call. Simple.


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## SpArK

Anyway the IAF's opposition was nt due to these reasons..



> The Kaveri-Snecma joint venture has been criticised by the IAF on grounds that Snecma, which is a derivative of the M-88 engine developed for the Rafale aircraft, has a similar core like that of the Kaveri engine and the joint venture involves GTRE building the peripheral of the core, which would not solve the purpose of having the joint venture, but would basically be the license production of Snecma, for which around 300 orders are being envisaged by Snecma before it enters into this license production.
> 
> 
> By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE and even if Snecma is involved, it will not disclose its core technology, which amounts to nothing but license production, he added.




Chindits: Kaveri-Snecma JV Try Back-door Entry In LCA

That was news which is 2 years old, but lets hope the resolve the issue ASAP and even go for the initial position of technical assistance.


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## Ignited Mind

SpArK said:


> Anyway the IAF's opposition was nt due to these reasons..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chindits: Kaveri-Snecma JV Try Back-door Entry In LCA
> 
> That was news which is 2 years old, but lets hope the resolve the issue ASAP and even go for the initial position of technical assistance.


 
Read between the lines, Benny. That's exactly what the IAF is objecting about. Take your time.

Ok let's do this. 



> basically be the license production of Snecma



That's what the IAF doesn't want. The IAF doesn't want to rely on Snecma completely. 

Their point is simple, as in, "Why the hell did we embark on the Kaveri project to make an indigenous engine, anyway. What's indigenous in this?"


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## jha

SpArK said:


> So you are saying we will be having problem with a Joint venture *Kaveri* ..??
> 
> The use of that JV engine depends on the consent of France... hmmm Interesting...



French companies are known for such attitudes...They demanded ~200 crores for designing just a new transmission for LUH..The total budget allocated for LUH is 386 crores...This is one of the reason I am against RAFALE ( even though it suits the IAF requirement better )..
Can never trust French..

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## Ignited Mind

jha said:


> Can never trust French..


 
Well, for that matter, you cannot trust anyone. But, hey, at the end of the day you have to buy from someone, don't you?

However, the thing is, you should also be busy in developing your own indigenous core expertise in these critical technologies, side by side. 

Keep doing the business with them but also develop your own thing. 

And our very own DRDO wants foreign assistance in that very 'own thing'.


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## MST

SpArK said:


> A2G is the need of the hour (doctrine) and everybody agrees Raffy scores on that above EFT also not to forget the massive weapons load along with 5 wet points which even the Su-30 MKI's dont have.. not to talk about the range...
> 
> Im sure the newer engine will be more maintainable and would shut up the thrust talks...
> 
> *After all France is the nation which produces the fastest and most powerful production car in the world in Bugatti Veyron *


 
 Bugatti is owned by the Germans (volkswagen Group) and Bugatti Veyron is designed by the Volkswagen. Its only manufactured in France.

OT: The non selection of F18 was a surprise but the selection of the two was expected. Looks like IAF is focused on performance primarily Air to Air and then anything else and thats why in spite of all the political negativity of Eurofighter it has a very good chance of slipping under Rafale and getting selected.


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## jagjitnatt

A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link. 

Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

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## satishkumarcsc

jagjitnatt said:


> A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link.
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis


 
Well i think a few additions can be made

1. Typhoon was envisaged as an air-superiority fighter but the Rafale is designed as multi-role ground up.
2. Typhoon and Rafale have both canards designedd to prevent auto-rotation which is very common in delta designs
3. Why France pulled out of the EFT programme?
4. The MMI in both the aircrafts and the complexity.
5. The engine power of the EJ 200 is higher than the M-88-2 but both Rafale and the EFT having similar TWR.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^^ Hoppingly Rafale wins the deal...
> 
> Can we have some light whether we will GaN module or GaS module with Rafale?.... Hoping Sancho or some one will throw light....


 
Not with the initial MMRCA batch, because that is a development for the next batch 5 upgrade, planed around 2018:

Here are possible future upgrade solutions for the Rafale, once posted in the key forum:

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX




jha said:


> Forget LCA, Kaveri will never power LCA even with upgraded thrust..It will be used in AMCA only when DRDO gets its acts together because IAF is not impressed by this JV DRDO is proposing with Snecma and wants a complete indian powerplant for next indigenous fighter..


 
I guess you mean GTRE, because they develop Kaveri engine and the GE 404 on LCA MK1 has 85kN AB thrust @ 1036Kg, while Kaveri - Snecma engine is planed with 90kN or more @ around the same, or even less weight of the GE engine. The advantage of replacing them with Kaveri - Snecma engine should be pretty clear, especially if there are already developments with the French for TVC.




Ignited Mind said:


> Read between the lines, Benny. That's exactly what the IAF is objecting about. *Take your time.*


 
Isn't more than a decade not enough? They provenly failed in the engine development and remaining just on hope is simply silly, especially if there is an aim on exporting the fighter. For any export sale we would need US approval and ask the Brazilians for example how deals must be scrapped because their aircrafts had US engines it it. Not to mention that South America would be a potential market for Tejas!




MST said:


> Bugatti is owned by the Germans (volkswagen Group) and Bugatti Veyron is designed by the Volkswagen. Its only manufactured in France.


 
True they belong to Volkswagen, but they did not the design, that is clearly French, while much of the techs, especially the 1001HP engine has made in Germany stamps on it, just like Lamborghini btw.


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## bhagat

*Tech Offers Shape India's Jet Picks
*
Tech Offers Shape India's Jet Picks - Defense News


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## drunken-monke

Karthic Sri said:


> Thats interesting info.
> 
> Is it true - i mean you have any sources - or just made that up after watching Pearl Harbor ?
> 
> 
> 
> That was in 1971 when USS Enterprise entered the BoB. and btw in 1962 US helped us against China - only the help reached a bit late to change the outcome of the war.


 
Hahaha, Pearl harbor no not at all. 

I was having a chat with my grandpa few years back, and he told me that this was the plan of IAF.. Although there is no supporting file I couldn't found out on internet. By the way this has been told to me when I was quite young, in year 1992-93 i suppose.


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## jha

> I guess you mean GTRE, because they develop Kaveri engine and the GE 404 on LCA MK1 has 85kN AB thrust @ 1036Kg, while Kaveri - Snecma engine is planed with 90kN or more @ around the same, or even less weight of the GE engine. The advantage of replacing them with Kaveri - Snecma engine should be pretty clear, especially if there are already developments with the French for TVC.



Yes..I meant GTRE... I was talking about LCA Mk-II , which even upgraded Kaveri will not be able to power.
It will be interesting to know how much tweaking will the airframe need once Kaveri replaces GE-404..


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## sancho

jagjitnatt said:


> A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link.
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis


 

Interesting, but I have some issues if you don't mind:



> The Rafale isn't as radical as the Typhoon. *It uses conventional technology in its airframe*. Everything about it is tried and tested. And it wouldn't be as maneuverable as Typhoon. *In fact, Typhoon would be miles above Rafale when it comes to maneuverability*.
> 
> *The intakes on the Rafale are also conventional*. They look cool but there isn't anything revolutionary about it. It isn't a bad thing, but the Typhoon takes the cake here too.



These statements are not really based on facts isn't it? Rafale airframe is made of similar amounts of composites like the EF (which makes your point on RCS not correct as well) and the hardpoint layout is a new one aimed one higher loads and it is rather one of the most impressive points of the Rafale design, how they was able to make such a small and light fighter, that is able to carry that much load ! The EF instead simply took the Mirage 2000 layout which is aimed at carrying as much AAMs as possible, but not on carrying many fuel tanks or heavy weapons:








Check the location of the missiles as well the gears:












Another unique feature are the RCS reduction mesures Dassault made by using triangular RAM materials, that are placed all over the airframe, or in the intakes. That put a high focus on scattering and absorbing radar waves, to make the fighter less observable, which also was the aim behind the very low IR signature.
So much for conventional technology. 
Regarding maneuverability, Rafale is considered as better in low speed maneuvering, compared to EF, which also gives Rafale the advantages at low altitudes.

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## sancho

jha said:


> Yes..I meant GTRE... I was talking about LCA Mk-II , which even upgraded Kaveri will not be able to power.
> It will be interesting to know how much tweaking will the airframe need once Kaveri replaces GE-404..


 
The same that I said about Kaveri - Snecma and GE 404, fits to a comparison to the GE 414 as well, because the latter has a way higher weight, around 1100Kg, so even if the K10 gets only 90kN (some sources expects even 95kN), if offers similar power.


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## sancho

Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 1 and 2

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-336.html#post1721297

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## SpArK

*5 Questions On India's M-MRCA Elimination​*'



Shiv Aroor
Livefist
For three days, I've responded to e-mail, text messages, social media pokes and calls from many of you asking me what I thought of Wednesday's dramatic elimination in the Indian M-MRCA fighter bid. For those of you who thought I was evasive and non-commital, it was for a reason: I haven't made my mind up, and I'm not sure I will. Besides, for four days I've devoured the copious amounts of journalism that the decision has fuelled across continents and across media. As with any contentious decision that has multibillion dollar implications for big business, opinion has varied from the dumbfounded "India is f***ed" sort of thing, to vicious, melodramatic diatribes about a betrayal of Washington, to stray instances of solid sobriety that eloquently wove into consideration more threads than just the jobs, dollars and cents. What I do have is a bunch of questions that I sure as hell would like to see some discussion on. Some of them may sound rhetorical, but they're not. Some of these are questions that I've seen raised by other journalists and writers in reports published in the last few days, and are therefore quandaries I agree need to be clarified. Here's my list of 5 questions:

*Q1. Can a $9.5-billion dollar airplane deal ever just be about the airplanes? Which is to say, does India expect nothing from the country that wins, above and beyond professional on-time delivery of the fighters and rock-solid after-sales support? On the other hand, what about the possibility that the elimination of the American and Russian fighters WAS a political decision?

Q2. If the European twin-engine fighters outperformed the other four contenders in field evaluations, why are there now questions over their selection? But if it is true that the margins of performance couldn't have been significant between the six contenders, did it makes sense to effect such pronounced eliminations? Does this therefore reinforce the suggestion from the first question that this WAS in fact a political decision?

Q3. Is the importance being yoked to this one contract (and the apocalyptic fall-outs being predicted in some sections) a function more of the dizzy hype that has surrounded it non-stop since 2004 than anything real? Has the mythology that engulfs the deal made it impossible to look coldly at the M-MRCA as simply a contract that meets an arithmetic IAF requirement? In turn, does the significant importance being attached to the loss of this one contract by the US belittle, demasculate and subvert the importance of other Indo-US bilateral achievements, including high value defence purchases?

Q4. Is the government, which incidentally never refuted the prevailing sense that strategic considerations would be factored into any decision (until the very end), now taking refuge in the Indian Air Force's trial recommendations as an easy offset to obvious political questions? Did something happen in the course of the selection process that forced (and if so, what) the government to shelve all "strategic factors", and complete the process wholly on merit/technical grounds if at all?

Q5. Has there been thorough transparency through every step of the selection process? If all vendors have been kept totally up to speed about their performance and compliance, and were perfectly in tune with the benchmarks (as the MoD has stated), then was last week's elimination really a surprise to those knocked out? Some of them say they expect debriefs in a transparent manner. Umm, were things not transparent before? Has the government satisfactorily shut the watertight gates of the selection process at each stage to ensure that none of its decisions along the way can be shafted later?*

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## KS

sancho said:


> Another unique feature are the RCS reduction mesures Dassault made by using triangular RAM materials, that are placed all over the airframe, or in the intakes. That put a high focus on scattering and absorbing radar waves, to make the fighter less observable, which also was the aim behind the very low IR signature.
> So much for conventional technology.



I think this is what Sancho says ;

Look at the saw toothed formations on the lower part of the canards,wings and the air inlets ;


















*The advantages of this formulation apart from Lower RCS is aerodynamically this makes the air flow turbulent as surface of fuselage is rough.It helps particularly in preventing the aircraft from stalling at at high angle of attack.*

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## jdme

Without decent pilots, all this will amount to nothing. Any chance of improving the quality of training we provide our pilots?


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## Manas

jdme said:


> Without decent pilots, all this will amount to nothing. Any chance of improving the quality of training we provide our pilots?


 
Stop Bullsh**ing ,you already have done enough.


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## faithfulguy

Because of mutual distrust between US and India. I really hope that any military hardware are water down versions of the ones we export to our Nato allies, Japan and Australia.


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## Manas

*Its interesting that TV journalists who had free rides on F-teens are feeling maximum burning sensation in the fuselage in the exhaust pipes after the MRCA shortlisting. Guess why??*


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## jdme

Manas said:


> Stop Bullsh**ing ,you already have done enough.


 
Oh, this is not BR?

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------




Manas said:


> *Its interesting that TV journalists who had free rides on F-teens are feeling maximum burning sensation in the fuselage in the exhaust pipes after the MRCA shortlisting. Guess why??*


 

Stop Bullsh**ing ,you already have done enough.


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## jdme

faithfulguy said:


> Because of mutual distrust between US and India. I really hope that any military hardware are water down versions of the ones we export to our Nato allies, Japan and Australia.


 
But India is NOT buying Made in USA.


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## KS

faithfulguy said:


> Because of mutual distrust between US and India. I really hope that any military hardware are water down versions of the ones we export to our Nato allies, Japan and Australia.


 
No problems -- if the watered down versions satify our Air staff requirements and budget constraints we will buy it, if not there are always other options unlike the puppet Japan.



jdme said:


> But India is NOT buying Made in USA.


 
He said about other hardware like C-17,C-130 and not specifically the MRCA.



jdme said:


> Without decent pilots, all this will amount to nothing. Any chance of improving the quality of training we provide our pilots?


 
Our pilots are one of the most professional and are more than capable of piloting these fighters, though I agree there is always scope for improvement.


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## jdme

Okay. I hope he knows that when you just buy a weapon, you always get watered down version, even if you are "friendly" like Australia.


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## Zabaniyah

Karthic Sri said:


> No problems -- if the watered down versions satify our Air staff requirements and budget constraints we will buy it, if not there are always other options unlike the puppet Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> He said about other hardware like C-17,C-130 and not specifically the MRCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Our pilots are one of the most professional and are more than capable of piloting these fighters, though I agree there is always scope for improvement.


 
Japan is not a puppet. It is a pacifist state.

The aircraft types put out by the Americans were not that great compared to the ones offered by the Europeans. Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon don't come cheap either. 

American's reasons may have to do with the nature of the relationship with India, but what was Obama's trip for anyway? But it is still their loss that they can't come up with something better than the Europeans are providing.


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## jdme

Karthic Sri said:


> Our pilots are one of the most professional and are more than capable of piloting these fighters, though I agree there is always scope for improvement.


 

My post was alluding to the fact that there are no generic pilots. Each new plane means a completely new training. So how do we judge whats "quality"?


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## KS

jdme said:


> Okay. I hope he knows that when you just buy a weapon, you always get watered down version, even if you are "friendly" like Australia.


 
Hmm. Actually I dont think so.

For example if the Australians sign the CISMOA or any other required agreement they will get all the tech on board C-17 as the USAF uses. 



Zabanya said:


> Japan is not a puppet. It is a pacifist state.



Semantics my dear.Nothing else.



jdme said:


> My post was alluding to the fact that there are no generic pilots. Each new plane means a completely new training. So how do we judge whats "quality"?


 
Obviously subjective issues like quality cannot be determined especially in these cases. But just it suffices to know that our Airforce and the associated crew are professional to the core.

As you said every new fighter needs different set of training and trust me the IAF/MoD which takes so much care in this will not be caught offguard in that.


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## tushar

Hey guys, is there any reports of a higher power engine to be provided with Rafale ??
French were offering it to UAE and Quwait...
I am talking about M88-X program which will be ready by 2013 and the thrust will be 76KN also it can then be used for interception role also....


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## praveen007

here is an interesting table to show research cost coperision between mmrca short-listed and f-35.


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## praveen007

here is one of innvovative way to mordernize rafale from is competitors 
*VOICE MAGIC*


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## faithfulguy

Karthic Sri said:


> Hmm. Actually I dont think so.
> 
> For example if the Australians sign the CISMOA or any other required agreement they will get all the tech on board C-17 as the USAF uses.


 I'm totally aware that any US export hardware are water down. But India should now get the water down of the water down versions for the same prices as any export products. I think India prefer to be treated like how Russia is screwing them over and over again. So if america treat India like how India is treated by how Russia sell weapons to India, India would be grateful. As for satisfying requirements, any previous generation US weapons are much more advance than the cutting age stuff from Europe. The Europeans are only good at make very good stuff with yesterday's technology. As for the T-50, India have to pay 10 times the current cost to get the water down technology from Russia.


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## Bang Galore

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Why the critics of India's combat jet deal are wrong
*Why the critics of India's combat jet deal are wrong*
*
Following a raft of technical tests by the IAF, the Manmohan Singh government has shortlisted the Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon and the French-made Dassault Rafale for a multi-billion dollar fourth generation fighter deal. New Delhi will almost certainly come under intense pressure to review its decision.*

Less than six months ago, President Barack Obama described the growing relationship between his country and India as &#8220;one of the defining and indispensable partnerships of the 21st century.&#8221; India's decision to pick European-made jets to equip its frontline combat jet fleet instead of United States-manufactured competitors has led more than a few to argue that the relationship has already hit a dead-end.

Sadanand Dhume, writing in the journal of the American Enterprise Institute, has argued India has &#8220;rebuffed the US offer of a closer strategic partnership&#8221;; and Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has argued that New Delhi &#8220;settled for a plane, not a relationship.&#8221; Indian commentators seem to agree: Nitin Pai, the editor of the strategic journal Pragati, charged India with being &#8220;gratuitously generous&#8221; to Europe; and The Times of India's Chidanand Rajghatta said the decision had dealt the India-U.S. alliance &#8220;a significant blow.&#8221;

These critics are thoughtful commentators who need to be taken seriously. They are also wrong.

Like all other transactional dealings between states, arms purchases do indeed have strategic implications. India ought, for sound common sense reasons, to pursue a robust relationship with the United States. It is unclear, though, why the purchase of this particular weapons system ought to undermine the larger strategic relationship between India and the U.S.

If countries like the United Kingdom and France can actually produce and operate combat jets not made by their key strategic partner, the U.S., there is no particular reason why India's decision to buy them ought be seen as a strategic affront. Earlier this year, India picked U.S.-made engines for its Tejas light combat aircraft over European competitors; its strategic relationship with Europe did not fall apart as a consequence. Nor will India and Russia end their enduring military relationship because the MiG31 lost the combat-jet dogfight.

Secondly, the U.S. itself has pursued multiple strategic relationships that best serve its interests &#8212; and India, like every other nation state, ought do the same.

Ever since the tragic events of 9/11, the U.S. has supplied Pakistan with a raft of military assets of no conceivable use other than against India &#8212; among them, eight P3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft, 32 F16 variants, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, and anti-artillery radars. K. Alan Krondstadt's 2009 survey for the U.S. Congressional Research Service shows that much of this equipment was paid for through military assistance grants.

American diplomats were made aware of Indian concerns. Back in 2004, Robert O. Blake, the U.S. Charge d'Affaires in New Delhi, had warned in an Embassy cable, accessed by The Hindu through WikiLeaks (23418:confidential, November 30, 2004), that sales of F-16s to Pakistan could &#8220;be a blow to those in the GOI [Government of India] who are trying to deepen our partnership.&#8221; Mr. Blake again warned, in a 2005 cable, of &#8220;universal opposition in India to the supply of sophisticated arms to Pakistan, with the F-16 aircraft symbolizing a US commitment to upgrading the Pakistani armed forces&#8221; [28592: confidential, March 11, 2005].

But the administration of President George W. Bush made the argument that such grants would help Pakistan meet its &#8220;legitimate defence needs&#8221; &#8211; and claimed, more disingenuously, that the aircraft would be used for close air support in the war against jihadists.

It would have been churlish for India, though, to make its relationship with the U.S. contingent on how Washington chose to engage Islamabad. It would be similarly churlish for the U.S. to insist that India ought not to exercise its right to buy the best equipment on offer for its money.

The only question ought be: has India picked the right jet?
No such thing as &#8220;the best thing&#8221;

&#8220;Imagine,&#8221; says a senior Indian Air Force official, &#8220;being asked to pick between a top-end Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar and Ferrari. It would be plain stupid to think of one high-performance car as better than another. For example, one might have better acceleration; another greater range; a third better handling.&#8221;

The IAF's Request for Proposals brought into contention the European multinational Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon, the French-made Dassault Rafale, the Swedish Grippen, the Russian MiG35, and the United States' F16IN and FA18.

Each aircraft had distinct advantages: though it has a slow top speed compared with the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F-16IN or the MiG 35, the Grippen had a better sustained turn capability; the Rafale did not manoeuvre well at high speed, but demonstrated outstanding instantaneous turn rates; the Lockheed Martin-produced F16IN and its Boeing rival, the FA18, had the best radar.

The MiG35s, though from a stable that has been plagued by maintenance problems and untested in service in Russia, had genuine multi-role capabilities, would have cost just $45 million apiece, and come with generous transfer-of-technology provisions.

Few are surprised that the Eurofighter appears to be leading the race: the aircraft has won the admiration of Indian pilots who have encountered it in exercises with their British counterparts. In November 2010, The Telegraph reported from London that Eurofighter was closing in on the multi-billion deal.

Dr. Tellis noted, in a thorough scholarly appraisal, that the Typhoon &#8220;conformed most closely to the [IAF's] Request for Proposals, and in a purely technical sense, it arguably remains the most sophisticated airplane in the mix &#8211; at least in its fully mature configuration, which is still gestating.&#8221; Eurofighter advocates point, among other things, that it was the only one of the contenders to demonstrate some supercruise capabilities &#8211; which means it can achieve supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners, improving endurance and reducing its radar signature.

Pilots told The Hindu they were also impressed with the aircraft's man-machine interface, which presents data streams from dozens of on-board and off-board sensors on a single screen

But the aircraft, like its European counterparts and the MiG35, also had a significant weakness &#8211; the absence of active electronically scanned array radar, or Aesa. Aesa broadcasts signals across a band of frequencies, enabling the radar to at once be powerful and stealthy. Eurofighter variants due to come into service around 2015 will carry an Aesa radar system called Caesar &#8211; but the aircraft's competitors pointed out that the radar, unlike those on the F16 and FA18, is untested.

Each U.S. contender was also a remarkable aircraft: although the F16 has been in service in 1979, the variant India was offered was state-of-the-art and proven in combat. Ramesh Phadke, a former Air Force pilot who serves as an analyst at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, noted the F16 &#8220;is destined to be remembered as the best multi-role fighter ever.&#8221; The FA18, too, is combat tested, and won over its competitors in some spheres.

In the end, the IAF short-listed the two frontrunners after putting the contenders through a raft of complex technical tests &#8211; tests that no one has yet claimed were skewed or rigged. Each firm has been provided a technical appraisal of why its offer was rejected, an appraisal it is free to dispute.

New Delhi will now have to determine which of the two contenders it will choose &#8211; and finance could play a key role. The Eurofighter is likely to charge some $125 million apiece, which means the initial purchase of 126 jets will cost India $15.75 billion, and a likely final order of around 200 aircraft, $20 billion. The Rafale is likely to be pegged around $85 million apiece.

Though the Grippen would have cost around the same as the Rafale, the F-16IN and FA-18 would have come at around $60 million each, and the MiG35 a relatively modest $45 million &#8211; though, given problems with its engine, the overall life-cycle costs of the Russian jet may not have been much lower than its U.S. competitors.

It is imperative, though, that the decision is made fast. Back in 1969, the IAF determined that it needed 64 squadrons, 45 of them made up of combat aircraft, to defend the country. India's economic situation, however, meant it could build only 45 squadrons, 40 of them made up of combat jets. Even that meant it retained an almost 3:1 advantage over Pakistan through much of the 1980s.

In the years since, though, the en bloc obsolescence of aircraft like the MiG21, MiG23 and MiG25 has meant the IAF's edge has blunted: Pakistan today has 22 squadrons of combat jets, or some 380, to India's 29 squadrons, or 630 fighters.

Pakistan, moreover, has received new jets from the U.S., as well as the JF-17 from China, and a slew of advanced radar and missiles. Its air defence capabilities are due to be enhanced with four Swedish SAAB-2000 jets equipped with Erieye phased-array radar, and Y8 anti-electronic warfare platforms from China.

Even as India's advantage over Pakistan diminishes, it has China to consider &#8211; not because a war is probable, or even plausible, but because militaries must plan and be prepared for worst-case scenarios.

For much of its history, China's People's Liberation Army Air Force had a huge air inventory, numbering over 5,000 aircraft, but over three-fifths of this consisted of obsolete MiG19 second-generation fighters. But in recent years, China has moved towards becoming a genuine aerospace power: by 2020, the PLAAF will have more fourth-generation fighters than the entire IAF fleet.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's government will almost certainly come under intense pressure to review its decision. It would do well to accept the expert assessment of those who understand its combat aviation needs the best &#8211; the women and men who may or may not, one day, have to fly them into danger.

_(Praveen Swami is Diplomatic Editor of The Daily Telegraph, London.) _


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## koushik

Really the IAF MMRCA Tender has been a really twitchy affair.In 2009 the IAF and Indian MoD had disqualified the Rafale for failing to meet the technical qualifications of IAF and now the same rafale is almost the Winner of MMRCA.

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

Really the IAF MMRCA Tender has been a really twitchy affair.In 2009 the IAF and Indian MoD had disqualified the Rafale for failing to meet the technical qualifications of IAF and now in May 2011 the same rafale is almost the Winner of MMRCA.


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## dbc

Bang Galore said:


> Unfortunately, it seems that no exception (or not enough of one) was made in this case. Alarm bells should have been ringing when the F-18 fared poorly (reportedly) in the high altitude trials. The trump card for the U.S. was the AESA radar. Unfortunately it seems that were not willing (again reportedly) to share technology completely on that. Once AESA was discounted. the odds were tilted heavily against them. The U.S. barked up the wrong tree with all the stress on a strategic relationship. While most people in India want a close relationship with the U.S. (some members on this forum excepted), no one was just willing to prioritise that over better performing aircrafts. As one former Ambassador to the U.S. put it -* " Nobody wants to lose a war to win a strategic ally"*. Even if that was hyperbole, the U.S. needed to do more than what it did to overcome Indian fears. I had pointed out earlier that I thought it was the U.S.'s contract to lose; unfortunately they did nothing to avert that outcome.
> 
> _*(The recent scams & the rap on the knuckles that the government has been getting from its auditors (CAG) made it almost impossible for the government to overrule IAF's technical evaluation. What was needed was a game changing offer by the Americans to convince the IAF but unfortunately that wasn't forthcoming. Hence the result.)*_



You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts. 

Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.


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## Ghostwhowalks

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.


 
sore loser, are we?


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## Bhairava

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Y*ou aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'.* Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> *2)* Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.



Frankly no one wants to. They were given a fair chance, their performance duly noted and after not making the down-select the respective corporations have been given the technical appraisal which they are free to dispute. 

As for the second point - this is precisely the mentality among the doyens of Capitol Hill of you are either with us or against us that makes India cautious of dealing with them. We are not some pushover country, i would not like to name it, for making these kind of statements and getting the required co-op.

As long as the C-17 orders, C-130 orders, P-8I orders were all coming it was good, but one deal did not come and then threats of change. Good those are not what you call "strategic partnerships" but "one-night stands".

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## Tin Man

The rafaele is a very competent aircraft. It is reliable and proven. India will gain a formidable weapon should they choose to induct the rafaele.


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## Break the Silence

Well, if somebody wants a strategic relationship with India.. then no need to cry over rejection of their bids(coz its totally a businessand buyer has every right of evaluation.. what is good and what is bad).
Now if some body just starts crying over failure of their bids, then its simply an indication, that the seller country is just interested in revival of their economy not in developing strategic relationships.

*Moscow is trying not to dramatize the situation saying that it was India's exclusive right to choose the aircraft supplier it needs.* Russia's Defense Ministry earlier said that it was planning to purchase 26 deck-based MiG-29 and not less than 72 MiG-35. The contracts have not been signed yet. The price of those fighter jets may turn out to be too high for the home market now, after the loss in the Indian tender. If Delhi had purchased the Russian jets, the largest contract would give an opportunity to set the home price for the jet a lot lower.
It now seems unnecessary to develop the production of MiG-35 jets for a relatively small order from the defense ministry. Most likely, Russia will have to shelve those plans. The loss also questions the promotion of the aircraft on other markets - in Latin America and in the Middle East.
MiG, a part of the United Aircraft Corporation, is the oldest designer and manufacturer of combat planes in Russia. The central product of the company is the MiG-29 fighter jet. There have been over 1,600 of them built since 1982.
According to the most recent financial report of the company over 2009, MiG received the profit of 24.8 billion rubles and suffered net losses of 7.9 billion. The debt of the company makes up 44 billion rubles. It is worthy of note that in 2009, Algeria refused from purchasing MiG-29 - the jets were eventually bought by the Russian Air Force.
*The United States, another participant of the Indian tender, has lost too. India declined Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Originally, the American manufacturers were not considered as favorites, but they took the loss very painfully. US Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer stated that the USA was deeply disappointed with the preliminary results of the tender. Mr. Roemer unexpectedly stepped down on Thursday citing "personal, professional and family considerations."* The participants of the tender were fighting for their victory selflessly. Presidents of Russia and France, Sarkozy and Medvedev, British Prime Minister David Cameron and US President Barack Obama supported their manufacturers during the final stage of the tender. However, India made the choice which it considered right for itself - in favor of Europe.
*Experts believe that India's choice for European aircraft makers is based on the intention to obtain the technologies required for the realization of its own TEJAS light fighter jet program. The Russian technologies, which India could obtain with MiG-35 jets, do not fit the program.* The key advantage of the Russian offer was the price. The MiG-35 is the cheapest of all other planes. The most expensive one is Rafale - $79.5 million, whereas the price of MiG is a little more than $40 million.
The contract stipulates the delivery of 126 multi-purpose fighter jets. The winner will have to supply 18 planes. The remaining 108 will have to be assembled in India. The fighter jets will be in service for over 40 years. The supplier will have to guarantee the technical servicing of the jets during that time period.
The list of participants included Russia's MiG with MiG-35, Europe's Eurofighter with EF-2000 Typhoon, USA's Boeing with F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin &#1089; F-16 Fighting Falcon, Sweden's SAAB with JAS-39 Gripen and France's Dassault Aviation with Rafale.
The cost of the contract is $10.5 billion. The price does not include the possible purchase of 64 more jets and the technical servicing.


Russia loses deal of the century to Europe - English pravda.ru

P.s. Learn from Russian admministration.


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## Markus

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. *Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior*. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.


 
The initial RFI from India had gone to LM only, Boeing jumped in with the US govt help (read pressure)

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

TIME FOR AMERICANS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHOLE WORLD IS NOT THEIR PLAYGROUND. ATLEAST INDIA IS NOT A PUPPET.


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## drunken-monke

faithfulguy said:


> I'm totally aware that any US export hardware are water down. But India should now get the water down of the water down versions for the same prices as any export products. I think India prefer to be treated like how Russia is screwing them over and over again. So if america treat India like how India is treated by how Russia sell weapons to India, India would be grateful. As for satisfying requirements, any previous generation US weapons are much more advance than the cutting age stuff from Europe. The Europeans are only good at make very good stuff with yesterday's technology. As for the T-50, India have to pay 10 times the current cost to get the water down technology from Russia.



Dear Mr. Faithfulguy,

Following is a breif coparision of Rafale, EFT, F16-IN, F/A-18IN 
Rafale Specs

Wingspan-10.8 m
Wing area: 45.7 m²
Empty weight- 9,500 kg (C), 9,770 kg (B), 10,196 kg (M) 
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg (30,900 lb)
Max. Take off weight- 24,500 kg (C/D), 22,200 kg (M) (54,000 lb),
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each 
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each 
Maximum speed
·	High altitude: Mach 1.8+ (1900 km/h, 1026 knots)
·	Low altitude: 1,390 km/h, 750 knots
Range- 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
Combat Radius- 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
Service ceiling-16,800 m (55,000 ft)
Rate of Climb-304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
Wing Loading-306 kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/Weight-1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile)
Armament
·	Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/719B cannon with 125 rounds 
·	Hardpoints: 14 For Armée de l'Air version (Rafale B,C), 13 for Aéronavale version (Rafale M) with a capacity of 9,500 kg (21,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance 
·	Missiles:
o	Air-to-air: 
§	MICA IR/EM or 
§	Magic II and in the future 
§	MBDA Meteor 
o	Air-to-ground: 
§	MBDA Apache or 
§	SCALP EG or 
§	AASM or 
§	GBU-12 Paveway II or 
§	AM 39 Exocet or 
§	ASMP-A nuclear missile 
·	Others: 
o	Thales Damocles targeting pod 
o	RECO NG reconnaissance pod 
o	up to 5 drop tanks 
o	The Rafale can also carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod
Avionics
·	Thales RBE2 radar 
·	Thales SPECTRA electronic warfare system. 
·	Thales/SAGEM OSF (Optronique Secteur Frontal) infrared search and track system
Radar Cross Section- 2m2

EFT specs
·	Wingspan: 10.95 m (35.9 ft) 
·	Height: 5.28 m (17.3 ft) 
·	Wing area: 51.2 m2 (551 sq ft) 
·	Empty weight: 11,150 kg (24,600 lb) 
·	Loaded weight: 16,000 kg (35,000 lb) 
·	Max takeoff weight: 23,500 kg (52,000 lb) 
·	Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan 
o	Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,000 lbf) each 
o	Thrust with afterburner: 89 kN (20,000 lbf) each 
·	Fuel capacity: 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) internal
Performance
·	Maximum speed:
o	At altitude: Mach 2 (2,495 km/h/1,550 mph) 
o	At sea level: Mach 1.2 (1,470 km/h/910 mph) 
o	Supercruise: Mach 1.11.5 
·	Range: 2,900 km (1,800 mi) 
·	Combat radius:
o	Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601 km (325 nmi) 
o	Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1,389 km (750 nmi) 
o	Air defence with 3-hr combat air patrol: 185 km (100 nmi) 
o	Air defence with 10-min. loiter: 1,389 km (750 nmi)
·	Ferry range: 3,790 km (2,350 mi) 
·	Service ceiling: 19,810 m (64,990 ft) 
·	Rate of climb: >315 m/s (62,000 ft/min) 
·	Wing loading: 312 kg/m2 (64.0 lb/ft2) 
·	Thrust/weight: 1.15 
·	g-limits: +9/&#8722;3 g


German ground crew mount an IRIS-T to a Eurofighter
Armament
·	Guns: 1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 Revolver cannon with 150 rounds 
·	Hardpoints: Total of 13: 8 × under-wing; and 5 × under-fuselage pylon stations; holding up to 7,500 kg (16,500 lb) of payload.
·	Missiles:
o	Air-to-air missiles: 
§	AIM-9 Sidewinder 
§	AIM-132 ASRAAM 
§	AIM-120 AMRAAM 
§	IRIS-T 
§	MBDA Meteor, in the future 
o	Air-to-surface missiles: 
§	AGM-65 Maverick 
§	AGM-88 HARM 
§	Storm Shadow (AKA Scalp EG) 
§	Brimstone 
§	Taurus KEPD 350 
§	Penguin 
§	AGM Armiger, in the future 
·	Bombs:
o	Paveway II/III/Enhanced Paveway series of laser-guided bombs (LGBs) 
o	Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) 
o	HOPE/HOSBO 
·	Others: 
o	Flares/infrared decoys dispenser pod 
o	chaff pods 
o	Electronic countermeasures (ECM) pods 
o	LITENING III laser targeting pod 
o	Up to 3 drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time. 
Avionics
·	Euroradar CAPTOR Radar 
·	Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE)
Radar Cross section- 1m2


F16 IN specs
General characteristics 
·	Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m) 
·	Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²) 
·	Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip 
·	Empty weight: 22,000 lb (9,980 kg)
·	Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg) 
·	Max takeoff weight: 46,000 lb (20,900 kg)
·	Powerplant: 1 × GE F110-GE-132 afterburning turbofan
o	Thrust with afterburner: 32,500 lbf (145 kN)
Performance
·	Maximum speed:
o	At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h) 
o	At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h clean configuration)
·	Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nm, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs 
·	Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks 
·	Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m) 
·	Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s) 
·	Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²) 
·	Thrust/weight: 1.095 

F-16C/D block 60 with conformal fuel tanks.


M61A1 on display.
Armament
·	Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61 Vulcan 6-barreled gatling cannon, 511 rounds 
·	Hardpoints: 2× wing-tip Air-to-air missile launch rails, 6× under-wing & 3× under-fuselage pylon stations holding up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of payload 
·	Rockets:
o	4× LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19× /7× Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively) or 
o	4× LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19× CRV7 70 mm rockets) or 
o	4× LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4× Zuni 127 mm rockets) 
·	Missiles:
o	Air-to-air missiles: 
§	2× AIM-7 Sparrow or 
§	6× AIM-9 Sidewinder or 
§	6× IRIS-T or 
§	6× AIM-120 AMRAAM or 
§	6× Python-4 
o	Air-to-ground missiles: 
§	6× AGM-45 Shrike or 
§	6× AGM-65 Maverick or 
§	4× AGM-88 HARM 
o	Anti-ship missiles: 
§	2× AGM-84 Harpoon or 
§	4× AGM-119 Penguin 
·	Bombs:
o	8× CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition 
o	8× CBU-89 Gator mine 
o	8× CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon 
o	Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser capable 
o	4× GBU-10 Paveway II 
o	6× GBU-12 Paveway II 
o	4× JDAM 
o	4× Mark 84 general-purpose bombs 
o	8× Mark 83 GP bombs 
o	12× Mark 82 GP bombs 
o	8× Small Diameter Bomb 
o	3× B61 nuclear bomb 
·	Others: 
o	SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or 
o	AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods or 
o	LANTIRN, Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods or 
o	up to 3× 300/330/370 US gallon Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight/extended range/loitering time. 
Avionics
·	AN/APG-80 AESA

F/A-18IN
General characteristics 
·	Wingspan: 44 ft 8½ in (13.62 m) 
·	Height: 16 ft (4.88 m) 
·	Wing area: 500 ft² (46.5 m²) 
·	Empty weight: 32,081 lb (14,552 kg) 
·	Loaded weight: 47,000 lb (21,320 kg) (in fighter configuration) 
·	Max takeoff weight: 66,000 lb (29,937 kg) 
·	Powerplant: 2 × General Electric F414-GE-400 turbofans 
o	Dry thrust: 14,000 lbf (62.3 kN) each 
o	Thrust with afterburner: 22,000 lbf (97.9 kN) each 
·	Internal fuel capacity: F/A-18E: 14,400 lb (6,780 kg), F/A-18F: 13,550 lb (6,354 kg) 
·	External fuel capacity: 5 × 480 gal tanks, totaling 16,380 lb (7,381 kg) 
Performance
·	Maximum speed: Mach 1.8+ (1,190 mph, 1,900 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m) 
·	Range: 1,275 nmi (2,346 km) clean plus two AIM-9s
·	Combat radius: 390 nmi (449 mi, 722 km) for interdiction mission 
·	Ferry range: 1,800 nmi (2,070 mi, 3,330 km) 
·	Service ceiling: 50,000+ ft (15,000+ m) 
·	Wing loading: 94.0 lb/ft² (459 kg/m²) 
·	Thrust/weight: 0.93 
·	Design load factor: 7.6 g 
Armament
·	Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61 Vulcan nose mounted gatling gun, 578 rounds 
·	Hardpoints: 11 total: 2× wingtips, 6× under-wing, and 3× under-fuselage with a capacity of 17,750 lb (8,050 kg) external fuel and ordnance 
·	Rockets:
·	Missiles:
o	Air-to-air missiles: 
§	4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or 4× AIM-120 AMRAAM, and 
§	2× AIM-7 Sparrow or additional 2× AIM-120 AMRAAM 
o	Air-to-surface missiles: 
§	AGM-65 Maverick 
§	Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM-ER) 
§	AGM-88 HARM Anti-radiation missile 
§	AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) 
o	Anti-ship missile: 
§	AGM-84 Harpoon 
·	Bombs:
o	JDAM Precision-guided munition (PGMs) 
o	Paveway series of Laser guided bombs 
o	Mk 80 series of unguided iron bombs 
o	CBU-87 cluster 
o	CBU-78 Gator 
o	CBU-97 
o	Mk 20 Rockeye II 
·	Others: 
o	SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or 
o	Electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod or 
o	AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Targeting pods or 
o	up to 3× 330 US gallon (1,200 L) Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time or 
o	1× 330 US gal (1,200 L) tank and 4× 480 US gal (1,800 L) tanks for aerial refueling system (ARS). 
Avionics
·	Raytheon APG-79 Radar 
·	Northrop Grumman/ITT AN/ALE-165 self-protection jammer pod or BAE Systems AN/ALE-214 integrated defensive electronic countermeasures system 
·	Raytheon AN/ALE-50 or BAE Systems AN/ALE-55 towed decoy 
·	Northrop Grumman AN/ALR-67(V)3 radar warning receiver 
·	MIDS LVT or MIDS JTRS datalink transceiver 

Will you please enlighten me how the Eurocanards are inferier to American warplanes. Yes you will say better radar (AESA), weapons, engine capability of F16-IN. But in many aspects the european jets have been superior than the americans toys. Also F16 reached its last stages of improvement, where further one would be impossible. F18 good one but has lower T/W ratio and you neve know the US policy towards your war strategy. never to forget the string attached like End User Monitering agreement.

Please correct me if am wrong on justifying the rejection of US toys

regards

Reactions: Like Like:
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## drunken-monke

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.


 
sour grapes


----------



## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

yeah we are really expecting change. something like real better deal next time WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED.
when we pay for something we want to use those things at out own wish. If you cant handle it then keep your things to yourself. i hope messege is clear this time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Tin Man

At the americans- business is business oui? C`est la vie


----------



## luckyyy

is this shortlist final...?

i mean what will be the situation if both shortlisted didn't fall within the allocated budget/fund for MMRCA in cost bidding..

does the next fighter inline on technical evaluation report will be called...


----------



## bhagat

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf


----------



## Dash

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in *'strategic partnership' *expect 'change'.



When will you come out of the mentality that the world spins around you guys ..huh..anyway, Looks like you forgot the real meaning/difference strategic partners and strategic allies....your strategic ally was Pakistan. Thank God we are disinterested in both!


----------



## sancho

It's actually understandable that many americans feels hurt now, especially because both fighters were kicked and this is the first time that something like this happend. Normally they can deal with the weaker performance, or offers with political power, but this time it seems that wasn't enough (which even surprised me).
However, from Indias point if view it is perfectly understandable and that is important, but some people always looked at the things only from the US side.


----------



## localoca

sancho said:


>


 Not, Rafale, Not EFT, Not MKi, Not LCA, Nothing can protect you guys from the Beast that is the J-20.

Be afraid, be very afraid...


teddy said:


> another sweet look of J20....it is soooo evill!!!





houshanghai said:


> j20 have EODAS 360 degree spherical situational awareness system (F35)








The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like..


----------



## MilSpec

localoca said:


> Not, Rafale, Not EFT, Not MKi, Not LCA, Nothing can protect you guys from the Beast that is the J-20.
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid...
> 
> The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like..




I hope you know J20 is a long range bomber... you sir, are not very bright


----------



## localoca

sandy_3126 said:


> I hope you know J20 is a long range bomber..


 ... and how is that going to keep you or the Rafale safe from the J-20?


----------



## axisofevil

sancho said:


> It's actually understandable that many americans feels hurt now, especially because both fighters were kicked and this is the first time that something like this happend. Normally they can deal with the weaker performance, or offers with political power, but this time it seems that wasn't enough (which even surprised me).
> However, from Indias point if view it is perfectly understandable and that is important, but some people always looked at the things only from the US side.


 



Sancho we need to look at all angles...Our angle should be first and foremost but in the long term scheme of things was it a wise decision?.....I am not sure. Already Pakistan is courting France as of today according Gilani, who received a call from a French defense minister. Now who is putting the pressure on India? Basically buy Rafael or we supply Pakistan. Think of the timing...its highly suspect. It is in the news, it is there to garner attention and make India sweat a lil. Gilani btw declared that France is a strategic partner. At least now with this current raid on Osama....it affirms the belief that the US cannot trust ISI......It seems the US has awaken or was always aware of the threat posed by PK/China. i think it would've been a damn good idea to strategically align ourselves with the US. We can claim our non alignment BS but the reality is that we stood more to gain than loose. China/PK are definitely happy with our decision which speaks wonders......take that into consideration. I can say the European planes offer us more tech with less strings attached but the Europeans also make it appoint to supply Pakistan just as evenly in order to create a parity between both Asian powers. IN some cases, they supply Pakistan a lil better thus forcing India to act and counter the Pakistani advances....They 're playing us like a fiddle....yet we are jumping up and down for a foreign plane....


----------



## axisofevil

Manas said:


> Stop Bullsh**ing ,you already have done enough.


 


Stop BSing yourself.....time to step out of the bubble and wake up to reality


----------



## axisofevil

SpArK said:


> Add AMCA and LCA too.. our own engine in all our fighters.


 
Don't be too content with KAveri....we need to continuously update....


----------



## axisofevil

Karthic Sri said:


> No problems -- if the watered down versions satify our Air staff requirements and budget constraints we will buy it, if not there are always other options unlike the puppet Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> He said about other hardware like C-17,C-130 and not specifically the MRCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Our pilots are one of the most professional and are more than capable of piloting these fighters, though I agree there is always scope for improvement.


 



I SWEAR WHAT YOYU SAY ABOUT OUR PILOTS IS THE SAME GARBAGE I HEAR OF OUR SPECIAL FORCES.....TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT 26/11? TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THE DELTA OPERATION ON OSAMA.....ANY QUESTIONS....


----------



## shrivatsa

yes how many hostages did delta force save?


----------



## axisofevil

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You aren't going to convince me or anyone in the US administration the Super Hornet or Desert Falcon 'under performed'. Fine, the IAF don't see themselves operating aircrafts constrained by CISMOA /ITAR and what not. Boeing and LM should not have been invited to participate,unceremoniously booted and told their products are inferior. I'd end this farce by selecting the Rafale, it needs a better engine and some tender loving care but overall better value than the other finalist which proved..er..inadequate in Libya from all accounts.
> 
> Now that India has sounded Washington it is not interested in 'strategic partnership' expect 'change'.


 

At the end of the day...India is not interested in getting an aircraft near the end of its life...India would be a moron to buy your craft simply for the aircraft itself. Sure its a great plane but there up and coming generations. Ultimately, if the US cherished the relationship as much they would do a bit more to loosen the strings attached and give some more leeway to tech issues. Remember, the ball is in the US court.....after all the attitude in India that is quite prevalent is the use of sanctions which has a detrimental affect. This can be seen all over the world wherever US weapons are used in the inventories of foreign militaries. Whenever these countries don;t play ball with the US, they get slapped with sanctions.


----------



## axisofevil

shrivatsa said:


> yes how many hostages did delta force save?


 


In this particulate operation they were;t looking to save hostages....but I can assure you if they were involved in 26/11.....you would never see high double digits in that ops......


----------



## Birruna

localoca said:


> Not, Rafale, Not EFT, Not MKi, Not LCA, Nothing can protect you guys from the Beast that is the J-20.
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like..




J10/J20, etc till the day they are made cheap chinese crap [CCC] nobody is going to take you very seriously. I don't see with the exception of Pak other countries scrambling for CCCs.


----------



## indianpatriot

localoca said:


> ... and how is that going to keep you or the Rafale safe from the J-20?


 
bombers don't do dogfight.....one missile and J 20 is down....PAK FA has real AESA radar with proven RUssian Sukhoi Technology....first China should make a decent indigenous aircraft coz all the other are mere copies of Western or Russian jets.F-16,Su-27 and all.


----------



## luckyyy

Markus said:


> This UPA govt has shown that it definitely shown "some" guts by ignoring the American pressure.
> 
> Kudos to Manmohaniya and company.


 
i think it makes sence to go for a independent choice rather looking for stategic partnership...these fighter have to serve for 40 years and it's a very long time , and the world statagic order keep changing depend on self intrests , ,,,


----------



## drunken-monke

localoca said:


> Not, Rafale, Not EFT, Not MKi, Not LCA, Nothing can protect you guys from the Beast that is the J-20.
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid...
> 
> The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like..



Dear Localoca,

Kindly requesting you not to bring J20 here and dont derail the thread, coz we are discussing India shortlisting EFT and Rafale. 
And first lets get J20 IOC, let it inducted in PLAF, let the pilots get familier with the aircraft and then you can keep bragging the beast called J20. But by that time FGFA would be inducted in IAF, and remember J20 is more like Bomber and FGFA is a fighter jet.
So when J20 even thinks of bombing Indian cities, FGFA would be planning to shoot down the J20 before it can complete its mission.
Now dont bring this issue again in this thread.

Cheers, Regards.


----------



## Bhairava

axisofevil said:


> I SWEAR WHAT YOYU SAY ABOUT OUR PILOTS IS THE SAME GARBAGE I HEAR OF OUR SPECIAL FORCES.....TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT 26/11? TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THE DELTA OPERATION ON OSAMA.....ANY QUESTIONS....



Are you out of your fricking mind ?

Comparing our NSG with the Seals ?

Ideally it should have been NSG with the SWAT and Para SF or MARCOS with SEALS and secondly it was NOT the Delta forces, it was the Navy SEALS. Educate yourself on the complexities in searching each and every room in a 700 room multi-storey hotel in the full glare of media with hostages before coming and blabbering here.


----------



## praveen007

Alliances of the Air by Shashi Tharoor - Project Syndicate

NEW DELHI &#8211; India&#8217;s recent
decision not to purchase
American warplanes for its $10
billion-plus fighter aircraft
program &#8211; the largest single
military tender in the country&#8217;s
history &#8211; has stirred debate in
defense circles worldwide. India&#8217;s
defense ministry deemed the two
American contenders, Boeing&#8217;s
F/A-18 Superhornet and
Lockheed&#8217;s F-16 Superviper, not
to fulfill the requirements that it
sought in a medium-size multi-
role combat aircraft. With the
Russian MiG-30 and the Swedish
Gripen also eliminated, two
European planes, the Eurofighter
Typhoon and the French Rafale,
are the only aircraft still in
contention for an expected
order of 126 planes.
India had never previously
purchased an American fighter
plane, and the United States
hoped that India would cement
the emerging bilateral strategic
partnership with a hefty check.
Indeed, US officials, including
President Barack Obama, had
lobbied for the deal, which
would have pumped money and
jobs into the ailing American
economy. The &#8220;deeply
disappointed&#8221; US ambassador to
India, Tim Roemer, promptly
announced his resignation. But,
in a typical comment, Indian-
American strategist Ashley Tellis
observed trenchantly that India
had chosen &#8220;to invest in a plane,
not a relationship.&#8221;
The notion that a major arms
purchase should be based on
broader strategic considerations
&#8211; the importance of the US in
India&#8217;s emerging Weltpolitik &#8211;
rather than on the merits of the
aircraft itself, strikes Indian
officials as unfair. Some deny
that the decision reflects any
political bias on the part of
India&#8217;s taciturn, left-leaning
defense minister, A. K. Antony.
The choice, they aver, is a purely
professional one, made by the
Indian Air Force, and only
ratified by the ministry.
The two European fighters are
generally seen as
aerodynamically superior, having
outperformed both US-made
aircraft in tests under the
adverse climatic conditions in
which they might have to be
used, particularly in the high
altitudes and low temperatures
of northern Kashmir. Experts
suggest that the American planes
are technologically ten years
behind the European ones, and
it doesn&#8217;t help that Pakistan,
India&#8217;s likely adversary if the
aircraft were ever pressed into
combat, has long been a regular
US client for warplanes.


Alliances of the Air by Shashi Tharoor - Project Syndicate


----------



## axisofevil

Gounder said:


> Are you out of your fricking mind ?
> 
> Comparing our NSG with the Seals ?
> 
> Ideally it should have been NSG with the SWAT and Para SF or MARCOS with SEALS and secondly it was NOT the Delta forces, it was the Navy SEALS. Educate yourself on the complexities in searching each and every room in a 700 room multi-storey hotel in the full glare of media with hostages before coming and blabbering here.


 


Stop making f-ing excuses....Guess what Seals is a special ops force...just like NSG is supposed to. Comparing it, yeah I know damn well we are not in that league...but you some stupid Indian posters who will claim otherwise and will give every f-ing excuse otherwise to prove why NSG is better......so let my post stick it to them where snubs them.....time for us to aim higher much higher. and in order to that we need to compare ourselves to the best and learn....Listen you are making f-ing excuses....NSG doe not train for such scenarios? Obviously I guess not. I guess their truing is BS. First of all there should have been a media black out....rule one broken and it shows we are incompetent...and don;t give me that democracy BS. There are laws in place to ensure that public safety is not compromised. We did not enforce . There was no perimeter set up. It looked like a circus. We did evacuate the surrounding buildings. Secondly the department of buildings should have a database for the detailed technical drawing of each and every building. Complete garbage. We did not even supply NSG with superior weapons and surveillance equipment. Yeah so as for the complexities I can understand how much harder it is to fight with shitty weapons and tech. Please educate yourself on the shortcomings...we are so myopic its not even funny. What this shows me it that we are evolving tactically and quite frankly the learning curve occurs after something tragic happens. even then it is not sufficient. We are not proactive only reactive.


----------



## baker

^^ oh ghosh.. for gods sake dont derail this thread.....


----------



## tushar

> The two European fighters are
> generally seen as
> aerodynamically superior, having
> outperformed both US-made
> aircraft in tests under the
> adverse climatic conditions in
> which they might have to be
> used, particularly in the high
> altitudes and low temperatures
> of northern Kashmir.





> Experts
> suggest that the American planes
> are technologically ten years
> behind the European ones, and
> it doesn&#8217;t help that Pakistan,
> India&#8217;s likely adversary if the
> aircraft were ever pressed into
> combat, has long been a regular
> US client for warplanes.


Thats correct.....I mean if they really wanted to win, they should have fielded F35 in the first place, why fielding the fighter which is about to be replaced...? I mean you don't wanna share tech, your fighter is not in the top 3 in performance and is technologically behind others then how you expect it to win and on losing you start pounding...


----------



## axisofevil

tushar said:


> Thats correct.....I mean if they really wanted to win, they should have fielded F35 in the first place, why fielding the fighter which is about to be replaced...? I mean you don't wanna share tech, your fighter is not in the top 3 in performance and is technologically behind others then how you expect it to win and on losing you start pounding...


 


If we are looking at tech then Typhoon is the way to go all the way...they met every requirement except AESA which is being developed....


----------



## sudhir007

Nothing wrong in our selection process for MMRCA deal: IAF - Brahmand.com

After the US expressed &#8220;disappointment&#8221; over the ouster of its two companies from the multi-billion-dollar combat aircraft deal, the Indian Air Force has asserted that there is &#8220;nothing wrong&#8221; in its selection process.

&#8220;Whether anyone is happy or unhappy, we have done whatever we were asked to do by the Government...If you select one aircraft, it always happens that other side would be dissatisfied. There is nothing wrong with our process. It is a human feeling,&#8221; IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said here on Monday.

On the last date of the expiry of the commercial bids for the tender, the Defence Ministry had shortlisted the European Eurofighter and the French Dassault Rafale for the 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

Two American companies, including the Boeing and Lockheed Martin, were rejected by the IAF along with the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Russian MiG 35.

Asked if the rejected companies would be given reasons for disqualification, the IAF chief said, &#8220;Their debrief was done when the test got over. Everybody knows whether he is compliant or non compliant.&#8221;

US firm Boeing, whose F-18 aircraft did not make the cut in the shortlist, had expressed its &#8220;disappointment&#8221; and said it would seek a debrief from the IAF for its ouster from the tender.

On the future fleet of the IAF, Naik said it would comprise the Su-30s, MMRCAs and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) along with the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

On issues about the anti-radiation missile in the deal, the IAF chief said, &#8220;These issues are not public issues. We have done our job and we have to decide about the L1 (lowest bidder).&#8221;

&#8220;We will sort out all issues as per the DPP (Defence Procurement Policy). Let the issue be sorted out and we will give you all the details,&#8221; he said without divulging any detail about the issue.

The issue, sources said, is over the sale of anti-radiation missiles, which are manufactured by an American firm and would require clearances by the US for sales to India.

Weapon systems are sold by the US through the Foreign Military Sales route and the countries acquiring such weapons require its permission for selling it to other sides.

The IAF tender mandates that the companies should offer a weapons package including anti-radiation missile while delivering the aircraft.


----------



## SpArK

axisofevil said:


> If we are looking at tech then Typhoon is the way to go all the way...*they met every requirement except AESA which is being developed.*...


 

Rafale met everything including AESA... which one is better .. decide..


----------



## Kinetic

EFT AESA is much better than Rafale's. It supposed to have EA capabilities. Number of T/R modules also more than double.


----------



## axisofevil

Yeah SPARK read the above post and you decide.....Rafale is dead weight..


----------



## Kinetic

Rafale is an excellent fighter and able to meet IAF requirements which F-18SH or Gripen-NG could not. But its future is not as good as EFT in long term.


----------



## jha

SpArK said:


> Rafale met everything including AESA... which one is better .. decide..


 


Kinetic said:


> EFT AESA is much better than Rafale's. It supposed to have EA capabilities. Number of T/R modules also more than double.


 


axisofevil said:


> Yeah SPARK read the above post and you decide.....Rafale is dead weight..


 


Kinetic said:


> Rafale is an excellent fighter and able to meet IAF requirements which F-18SH or Gripen-NG could not. But its future is not as good as EFT in long term.


 
And Let the fight begin...


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


> And Let the fight begin...


 
Jha jhaaa.. we are not going to fight


----------



## Kinetic

jha said:


> And Let the fight begin...


 
I think I have posted less number of posts than any other Indians in this thread after 85 pages. I know for what I stand. So no need of fight or anything else. Above all I do not fight with Indians.


----------



## DarK-LorD

Kinetic said:


> EFT AESA is much better than Rafale's. It supposed to have EA capabilities. Number of T/R modules also more than double.



But will EADS provide Source Code like Dassault.


----------



## Bhairava

axisofevil said:


> Stop making f-ing excuses....



Stop being a f*cktard and stop with this personal attacks.



axisofevil said:


> Guess what Seals is a special ops force...just like NSG is supposed to.



Wrong - The equivalent of SEALS is our MARCOS and not NSG. The equivalent of NSG is SWAT.



axisofevil said:


> Comparing it, yeah I know damn well we are not in that league...



A retard with IQ 40 would know a specialized POLICE force and an Elite Navy SF unit will NOT be in the same league.



axisofevil said:


> but you some stupid Indian posters who will claim otherwise and will give every f-ing excuse otherwise to prove why NSG is better....



No one is claiming NSG is better than SEALS. It is you who is saying NSG is inferior because they did not perform well in mumbai. Well what is criteria for excellent perfomance, wise one ?



axisofevil said:


> ..so let my post stick it to them where snubs them.....



It affects no one except making you look foolish by comparing a specialised Police force and and Elite Navy SF unit with two very different mission profiles.



axisofevil said:


> time for us to aim higher much higher. and in order to that we need to compare ourselves to the best and learn....


Only sensible thing you have spoken.



axisofevil said:


> Listen you are making f-ing excuses....


I dont give a shyt as to what you think - the end result you dont know what you are speaking.



axisofevil said:


> NSG doe not train for such scenarios? Obviously I guess not.


Even if they train they cant miraculously sweep clean about 700 rooms in multiple storeys with fire raging in any less time with suicde minded terrorists on the loose.



axisofevil said:


> I guess their truing is BS. First of all there should have been a media black out....rule one broken and it shows we are incompetent...and don;t give me that democracy BS.



Not a fault of the NSG. Blame the Govt for all you want.



axisofevil said:


> There are laws in place to ensure that public safety is not compromised. We did not enforce . There was no perimeter set up. It looked like a circus.



Patently wrong - I was in Mumbai and I know that a 100 m perimeter was set up. Stop blabbering.



axisofevil said:


> We did evacuate the surrounding buildings. Secondly the department of buildings should have a database for the detailed technical drawing of each and every building. Complete garbage.



The hotel plans of the TAJ were given to the NSG.



axisofevil said:


> We did not even supply NSG with superior weapons and surveillance equipment. Yeah so as for the complexities I can understand how much harder it is to fight with shitty weapons and tech. Please educate yourself on the shortcomings...



Blame the bureaucracy for that and stop blaming the NSG. They acquitted themselves very well with the little equipment they had.

You are just confusing the Bureaucratic hassles with the incompetence of the NSG commandos themselves are you cannot be more wrong.


----------



## Kinetic

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> But will EADS provide Source Code like Dassault.


 
This particular answer I do not know, whether they will give ToT for the radar and source codes. I was talking about capabilities of both radars. But here is some details about EFT ToT and manufacturing in India. 


EADS Global Website - Press


*Gounder and axisofevil can you pls stop this? *


----------



## jha

[/COLOR]


SpArK said:


> Jha jhaaa.. we are not going to fight



You cant..You know you are on loosing side..

Go F-16..sorry Go Eurofighter...


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


> You cant..You know you are on weaker side..
> 
> Go F-16..sorry Go Eurofighter...
> 
> :




Ok lets have a compromise.. if EFT wins , lets start a spare parts center of typhoon.. 

cause guess what, they are short of it in partner countries...


----------



## jha

SpArK said:


> Ok lets have a compromise.. if EFT wins , lets start a spare parts center of typhoon..
> 
> cause guess what, they are short of it in partner countries...


 
Its easier to start a DHAABA for spare parts than start a R&D unit to design better engine..
Cause Guess what Rafale needs a much better engine than it has..


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


> Its easier to start a DHAABA for spare parts than start a R&D unit to design better engine..
> Cause Guess what Rafale needs a much better engine than it has..


 
That engine supercruises and has almost equal thrust of the catfish fighter...

the R&D is for kaveri...


----------



## jha

SpArK said:


> *That engine supercruises* and has almost equal thrust of the catfish fighter...
> 
> the R&D is for kaveri...


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


>


 
The Snecma M88 engine in the Dassault Rafale allows it to supercruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a 1000-liter belly tank and even in the naval version; it can supercruise up to Mach 1.4 while carrying six air-to-air missiles (MBDA MICA).

"Air defense mission for flotille F12." Fox Three, issue 8, pg. 8. Retrieved: 2011-03-30.
^ Desclaux, Jacques and Jacques Serre (2003). M88 &#8211; 2 E4: Advanced New Generation Engine for Rafale Multirole Fighter. AIAA/ICAS International Air and Space Symposium and Exposition: The Next 100 Years. 14&#8211;17 July 2003, Dayton, Ohio. AIAA 2003-2610.


Or try

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SpArK

jha said:


>


 
The Snecma M88 engine in the Dassault Rafale allows it to supercruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a 1000-liter belly tank and even in the naval version; it can supercruise up to Mach 1.4 while carrying six air-to-air missiles (MBDA MICA).

"Air defense mission for flotille F12." Fox Three, issue 8, pg. 8. Retrieved: 2011-03-30.
^ Desclaux, Jacques and Jacques Serre (2003). M88  2 E4: Advanced New Generation Engine for Rafale Multirole Fighter. AIAA/ICAS International Air and Space Symposium and Exposition: The Next 100 Years. 1417 July 2003, Dayton, Ohio. AIAA 2003-2610.


Or try

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sudhir007

http:///wa/french-rafale-fires-aasm...ance-against-a-high-speed-moving-target/3255/

French defense procurement agency DGA demonstrated AASM modular air-to-ground weapon against a land target moving at high speed. The test was carried out at the DGAs missile test range in Biscarosse by a production Rafale fighter deployed by the DGAs flight-test center in Cazaux. The AASM was fired from an extreme off-axis angle (90°) at a range exceeding 15 kilometers.

The impact was at a very low angle, against a moving target represented by a laser spot generated by a ground illuminator mounted on a turret, to simulate a vehicle moving at a speed of 80 km/h. Using its algorithms for detection and slaving of the trajectory to the laser spot, plus its excellent maneuverability, the AASM hit its target to within less than one meter.

This firing test demonstrates the AASM Lasers ability to offer 1-meter accuracy against high-speed, agile land or maritime targets. Coupling this performance with its standoff firing capability, the AASM is unrivaled in the market for tactical air-to-ground weapons.

The inertial/GPS/laser-guided version of the AASM is fitted with a semi-active laser seeker, and features algorithms to track fixed or highly mobile targets during the terminal phase. It will enhance the operational flexibility already offered by the AASM family, including two versions that have been qualified for firing by the Rafale multirole fighter: inertial/GPS and inertial/GPS/infrared.

The laser terminal guidance version of the AASM will enter volume production for the French air force and navy starting at the end of 2012.


----------



## sudhir007

Alliances of the Air by Shashi Tharoor - Project Syndicate

India&#8217;s recent decision not to purchase American warplanes for its $10 billion-plus fighter aircraft program &#8211; the largest single military tender in the country&#8217;s history &#8211; has stirred debate in defense circles worldwide. India&#8217;s defense ministry deemed the two American contenders, Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Superhornet and Lockheed&#8217;s F-16 Superviper, not to fulfill the requirements that it sought in a medium-size multi-role combat aircraft. With the Russian MiG-30 and the Swedish Gripen also eliminated, two European planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, are the only aircraft still in contention for an expected order of 126 planes.

India had never previously purchased an American fighter plane, and the United States hoped that India would cement the emerging bilateral strategic partnership with a hefty check. Indeed, US officials, including President Barack Obama, had lobbied for the deal, which would have pumped money and jobs into the ailing American economy. The &#8220;deeply disappointed&#8221; US ambassador to India, Tim Roemer, promptly announced his resignation. But, in a typical comment, Indian-American strategist Ashley Tellis observed trenchantly that India had chosen &#8220;to invest in a plane, not a relationship.&#8221;

The notion that a major arms purchase should be based on broader strategic considerations &#8211; the importance of the US in India&#8217;s emerging Weltpolitik &#8211; rather than on the merits of the aircraft itself, strikes Indian officials as unfair. Some deny that the decision reflects any political bias on the part of India&#8217;s taciturn, left-leaning defense minister, A. K. Antony. The choice, they aver, is a purely professional one, made by the Indian Air Force, and only ratified by the ministry.

The two European fighters are generally seen as aerodynamically superior, having outperformed both US-made aircraft in tests under the adverse climatic conditions in which they might have to be used, particularly in the high altitudes and low temperatures of northern Kashmir. Experts suggest that the American planes are technologically ten years behind the European ones, and it doesn&#8217;t help that Pakistan, India&#8217;s likely adversary if the aircraft were ever pressed into combat, has long been a regular US client for warplanes.

Moreover, Indian decision-makers could not help but be aware that the US has not, over the years, proved to be a reliable supplier of military hardware to India or other countries. It has frequently cut off contracted supplies, imposed sanctions on friends and foes alike (including India), and reneged on delivering military goods and spare parts, in addition to being notoriously unwilling to transfer its best military technologies.

The current Indian fleet of mainly Russian and French planes has suffered from no such problems, and the existing ground-support and maintenance infrastructure would have needed major changes to handle US aircraft. (It is likely that the eventual winner of the bid will be required to enter into a joint-production arrangement with India, which US companies would not have done.)

As if all this were not enough to decide against America, the clincher might well have been the Indian government&#8217;s desire to avoid any further procurement controversy at a time when allegations of corruption beset it from all sides. A decision made on technical grounds, many felt, would be easier to defend than one based on political considerations.

Against this are the unambiguous advantages of pleasing a major new ally and developing a pattern of bilateral military cooperation in supply, training, and operations that has yet to evolve. At a time when US nuclear-reactor purchases &#8211; made possible by the historic deal negotiated by the Bush administration &#8211; have been held up by US insistence on exemptions from supplier liability in the event of an accident, some regard India&#8217;s spurning of US aircraft as a gratuitous rejection of an opportunity to demonstrate that friendship with India helps America, too.

Is India being its old prickly non-aligned self again? Is appeasement of India&#8217;s notoriously anti-American politicians more important to a beleaguered Indian government than winning over the US? Will India&#8217;s traditional obsession with preserving its strategic autonomy always limit its usefulness as a partner to the US?

Such questions are unfair. Surely, India-US relations transcend any single arms purchase. Why should the financial value of one deal be the barometer of a strategic partnership? It is simply narrow-minded to reduce US foreign policy towards India to the bottom lines of American defense salesmen.

Nor is there any military estrangement between the two countries. Even if this deal didn&#8217;t work out for the US, it remains a leading arms supplier to India, having won bids to provide ships, reconnaissance aircraft, and advanced transport planes. The Indian army, navy, and air force still conduct more exercises with US defense forces than with those of any other power.

And the strategic relationship is not one-way. The US, too, has a strong interest in Indian strategic autonomy, which would be buttressed by a wider range of external partnerships, including with the European states that will benefit from the aircraft tender. Though India is rightly allergic to being seen as a US-supported counterweight to a rising China, in practice it is avidly courted by Southeast Asian countries anxious to balance the Chinese, a development that suits American interests. Obama&#8217;s visit to India last November reinforced a perception that the two countries share an increasingly convergent worldview, common democratic values, and thriving trade. None of this will cease to be relevant if India buys a European fighter plane.

In fact, the potential for Indian-US collaboration in a variety of military and non-military areas could be enhanced by this decision. Turning the US down this time actually frees India&#8217;s hands to pursue other aspects of the partnership, immune from the charge that it is too responsive to American pressures. India has not foreclosed its options; it has enlarged them.

Shashi Tharoor, a former Indian Minister of State for External Affairs and UN Under-Secretary General, is a member of India&#8217;s parliament and the author of a dozen books, including India from Midnight to the Millennium and Nehru: the Invention of India.


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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> Its easier to start a DHAABA for spare parts than start a R&D unit to design better engine..
> Cause Guess what Rafale needs a much better engine than it has..


 
Remember what UK done to our navy during sanctions... Better go with Rafale.. Need to see how Rafale will be able to deliver Anti Radiation Missile...

And thats why Indian Navy emphasis more on local development... even they say LCA Navy is not we want but they are happy that is ours... Indian Navy was exposed more to western compared to IAF and IA... so there are some lessons already learnt


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## jha

SpArK said:


> The Snecma M88 engine in the Dassault Rafale allows it to supercruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a 1000-liter belly tank and even in the naval version; it can supercruise up to Mach 1.4 while carrying six air-to-air missiles (MBDA MICA).
> 
> "Air defense mission for flotille F12." Fox Three, issue 8, pg. 8. Retrieved: 2011-03-30.
> ^ Desclaux, Jacques and Jacques Serre (2003). M88  2 E4: Advanced New Generation Engine for Rafale Multirole Fighter. AIAA/ICAS International Air and Space Symposium and Exposition: The Next 100 Years. 1417 July 2003, Dayton, Ohio. AIAA 2003-2610.
> 
> 
> Or try
> 
> Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
You dont have to convince me with Links Spark Saar..
We both have been here long enough to see others slog it out with various links..

Rafale is a very potent fighter and meets almost every demand of IAF..My reservation with this has always been non-technical...


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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Remember what UK done to our navy during sanctions... Better go with Rafale.. Need to see how Rafale will be able to deliver Anti Radiation Missile...
> 
> And thats why Indian Navy emphasis more on local development... even they say LCA Navy is not we want but they are happy that is ours... Indian Navy was exposed more to western compared to IAF and IA... so there are some lessons already learnt



IN has always inducted indigenous machines with open arms..


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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> IN has always inducted indigenous machines with open arms..


 
It is more after sanctions slapped on there face


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## sancho

axisofevil said:


> Sancho we need to look at all angles...Our angle should be first and foremost but in the long term scheme of things was it a wise decision?



I think it was, because numerous of reasons:

1) We don't get too dependent on the US, that is still one of the main allies of Pakistan and not of India!

2) Our forces remain independent and can't be forced to negotiate with the laws and policies of foreign countries, that wants to control the arms and techs even after they sold it!

3) Our forces gets the best arms and techs and hopefully also the one that suits them the most. That improoves their capability and the security of our nation!

4) The Europeans offers the highst ammounts of ToT from important parts of the fighter like AESA radar for example. The US denied that and therefor our industry had not benefitted much from their offers. The Europeans also have an high involvement in form of JV, licence productions and now even co-developments of arms and techs, while the US even denied consultancy to make LCA carrier capable.
All this makes clear, that the Europeans are the way better choice when it comes to improvement of our industry!

5) During MMRCA we saw Germany not sealing a submarine deal with Pakistan, although according to media reports it was 95% done. We also saw France denying crucial weapons and avionics for JF 17 and both these examples shows, that we can influence the policies of these countries, be it with political infuence, or the better business deals. On the other side we saw the US keep selling Pakistan arms and techs and no matter what we say, or do we can't influence the US at all.
Also important in this regard, if we team up with the EF consortium, or Dassault it automatically blocks these fighters as well as the sale of their latest techs to Pakistan as well. While being a normal export customer of F18SH won't change anything.


It is good that the US changed their policies towards India and now comes closer to us and our interests, but that doesn't meant we have to ignore the decades were they supported mainly Pakistan and more importantly, we should understand that they are getting closer to us, because it is in their interest now!
India is a huge market for business and especially for their arms lobby we mean a lot of money. In a strategic mean, India is also the only Asian country, that could be a counterweight to China and it is important for the US to have such a country on their side. Not to mention the strategic location of India in regard of the sea lanes to the east!
So they want and need us for their own purposes, therefor we can play our cards and offer them a part of the market as well, but on our conditions!
Some transport, or surveillance aircrafts, a minor number of combat helicopters, no problem. A big part of the IAF frontline fleet, no thanks!


But back to the EF and Rafale!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> EFT AESA is much better than Rafale's. It supposed to have EA capabilities. Number of T/R modules also more than double.


 
Although even I think that (at least for range), the cruicial point is when? The fact remains that the development is still not funded by the partner countries and that even the consortium admitted that a first version could be ready by 2015, but the more the funding is delayed, the more delayed will be the development.
Rafales AESA is ready, fulfills the requirements and will have EA capabilities as well. In this field we can even expect more frm the French, when we look at how capable the SPECTRA EWS is, but more over when we keep in mind that they develop dedicted electonic attack systems that makes Rafale at least equal to the F18 Growler since quiet some time:



> *Airborne Electronic Attack (AEA)*
> Loading...
> 
> New Airborne Electronic Attack concept for electronic support jamming missions in present and future environments
> 
> Increased ES/EA mission capability through advanced jamming functions
> 
> * Pod or internally mounted, for fighter aircraft, UAV, J-UCAV or mission aircraft with network centric warfare (NCW) capabilities
> * Very high power main / side / scattered lobe jamming
> * Unsigned raid DDA, up to RF horizon action possible
> * Smart techniques / coherent waveforms / covert jamming
> * Smart power management using active phased array transmitter
> 
> *Outstanding performance with latest jamming technologies
> 
> * Solid-state active phased array AESA jamming*
> * Highly sensitive digital reception
> * Highly effective multi-bit DRFM jamming techniques
> 
> Main features
> 
> * Very high ERP, for main, side and scattered lobes jamming
> * Multiple DRFM architecture for simultaneous beam aimed multi-threat jamming
> * Smart digital jamming techniques
> * Wide angular coverage, up to 360°
> * Extended low and high brand threat coverage capabilities
> 
> Carbone Demonstration Aircraft
> The new Thales AEA concepts and technologies have been implemented within the CARBONE demonstration programme.
> CARBONE was presented and evaluated during the MACE X NATO trials, operating against sophisticated eastern/western radar technologies.



Airborne Electronic Attack (AEA) - Thales


The same AESA jammers that are integrated into SPECTRA and check the brochure on the right!


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## sancho

While I was checking the Thales site for new infos, this press release which was send out around Aero India caught my attention:



> *Samtel Thales Avionics JV is officially incorporated
> *
> 
> 09 February 2011
> Loading...
> 
> Bangalore, India, 09 February 2011  Samtel Display Systems Ltd. and Thales Avionics SA are proud to announce the official incorporation of their new Joint Venture company, Samtel Thales Avionics Ltd.
> 
> *This is a key step for Thales in India and its ambitious development plan, actively encouraged by the Indian Defence Ministry*, said Yves Joannic, Vice President in charge of Thales Avionics Helicopter activities and one of the Directors of the new company. *This joint venture with a national industry partner makes Samtel Thales Avionics Ltd. a very credible player for future programmes*....
> 
> ...*Samtel Thales Avionics at AeroIndia 2011
> Samtel Thales Avionics (STA) will be participating in the AeroIndia exhibition to be held at Bangalore during 9-13 Feb 2011. The STA booth will be within the Samtel booth and will showcase some of the upcoming JV products. Visitors will be able to see mock-ups of the Helmet Mounted Sight Displays,TopOwl and Divy Drishti, as well as a presentation of the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system and the Integrated Electronic Standby Instrument (IESI). For more information, visit Samtel Thales Avionics at AeroIndia, Hall E, Stand E-27....*


*

Samtel Thales Avionics JV is officially incorporated - Thales Group


So I checked the Samtel site as well and look what I found:




Divy Drishti

Indian Helmet Mounted Sight and Display for Indian fighter aircraft

 * A multi-role system improvement for Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface missions
* The safest solution for operational effectiveness enhancement
* Based on Thales advanced and mature technologies, already flying on Indian Navy MiG-29K and qualified on Mirage 2000

Click to expand...


SDS::Leading Manufacturer of DisplaySystems,CAT,MFD,HUD,HMD,ATE&IADS in India


The simple licence production of Topsight - I seems to have moved a step further to Divy Drishti a HMS JV, but even more interesting was this:




INFRA RED SEARCH AND TRACK

Thales' Front-Sector Optronics system is fully integrated into the Rafale. Operating in optical wavelengths, this sensor is immune to radar jamming and provides covert long-range detection and identification, high-resolution angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets.

FSO has high-precision 3D localisation capabilities that it derives from lasers for measuring target distance.

Its near-visible waveband capability is especially valuable. It has a narrow field for identifying possible targets in situations where visual contact is required by rules of engagement or during quick reaction alerts. The FSO enhances the Rafales situation awareness capabilities and reinforces its ability to operate in severe environments.

Click to expand...


Infra Red Search and Track


Does it mean that Samtel now produces the FSO from Rafale, or are they the JV partner for the NG IRST channel of FSO that is under development now?

On a sight note, the fact that Samtel also will build the Topowl HMS for helicopter, makes it even more likely that LCH will use it in future.*


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## GORKHALI

*Meteor trials on Rafale M1 ©Dassault*






*
Flares on Rafale M1 ©Dassault*


----------



## localoca

drunken-monke said:


> when J20 even thinks of bombing Indian cities, FGFA would be planning to shoot down the J20 before it can complete its mission.


 you guys keep dreaming.... FGFA its a Paper Plane, J-20 its a Stealth aircraft, your Rafale, MKi and T-50 will be all scrap metal before you guys even know...

J-20


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## SpArK

localoca said:


> you guys keep dreaming.... FGFA its a Paper Plane, J-20 its a Stealth aircraft, your Rafale, MKi and T-50 will be all scrap metal before you guys even know...
> 
> J-20


 
yes yes.. even better than flying sausers... boombastic... world class... all others are waste...


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## GORKHALI

localoca said:


> you guys keep dreaming.... FGFA its a Paper Plane, J-20 its a Stealth aircraft, your Rafale, MKi and T-50 will be all scrap metal before you guys even know...
> 
> J-20


 
Are you getting *Orgasm* ,whenever you name J20 ,coz am suspecting your syndrome ??


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## axisofevil

Gounder said:


> Stop being a f*cktard and stop with this personal attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong - The equivalent of SEALS is our MARCOS and not NSG. The equivalent of NSG is SWAT.
> 
> 
> 
> A retard with IQ 40 would know a specialized POLICE force and an Elite Navy SF unit will NOT be in the same league.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is claiming NSG is better than SEALS. It is you who is saying NSG is inferior because they did not perform well in mumbai. Well what is criteria for excellent perfomance, wise one ?
> 
> 
> 
> It affects no one except making you look foolish by comparing a specialised Police force and and Elite Navy SF unit with two very different mission profiles.
> 
> 
> Only sensible thing you have spoken.
> 
> 
> I dont give a shyt as to what you think - the end result you dont know what you are speaking.
> 
> 
> Even if they train they cant miraculously sweep clean about 700 rooms in multiple storeys with fire raging in any less time with suicde minded terrorists on the loose.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fault of the NSG. Blame the Govt for all you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Patently wrong - I was in Mumbai and I know that a 100 m perimeter was set up. Stop blabbering.
> 
> 
> 
> The hotel plans of the TAJ were given to the NSG.
> 
> 
> 
> Blame the bureaucracy for that and stop blaming the NSG. They acquitted themselves very well with the little equipment they had.
> 
> You are just confusing the Bureaucratic hassles with the incompetence of the NSG commandos themselves are you cannot be more wrong.


 




Hey moron.....realize that SWAT will run rings around NSG. A retard will realize that SWAT would be able to handle this job much better. Why didn t we use MARCOs maybe their performance is just abysmal.....I will blame NSG they should be teaching the gov't how their job has to be done. They need to educate the freaking politicians not the other way around. A patient doesn;t tell a doctor how to do their job right? 100m perimeter is NO perimeter. Got that......1/2 -1 mile perimeter should should been set up. On top that all communications should been closely monitored. We can buy all the equipment in the world but if don;t think about endless possibilities on how to sue them efficiently and then try to counter that then its useless. It took too much time to get the TAJ plans....there was no database set up in a big city like BomBay.....think this is one of the key reasons why building codes are never met and why encroachment is such an issue. SO STOP BLABBERING and blindly defending our failures you f--ing moron.....Our politicians suck and the NSG lacks proper equipment basics like f-ing knew pads.....but hold them acceptable to the training that's all.....I agree our NSG had no chance in hell when they lack the proper equipment. the toy o equipment they lacked is appalling, here take a look.............

Upgrades after 26/11
CornerShot Guns [12]
Laser Designator
Advance Audio Communication Set
GPS & GPRS Technological Systems
Wall Surveillance Radars
Night Vision Devices
Protective Goggles
Special Tactical Gears
Thermal Imaging Cameras [13]
Mini Remotely Operated Vehicles
Non skid shoes
Ghillie suits
Helmet with in built hands free communication
Level 3 bullet-proof vest
Knee pad and elbow pads
SIG SG 553
Taser
Chartered helicopters and ability to use civilian aircraft for emergencies.
Anti-Materiel Rifles like the OFB produced Vidhwansak and possibly the Russian made OSV-96.


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## localoca

SpArK said:


> yes yes.. even better than flying sausers... boombastic... world class... all others are waste...


 take a look at this pic and tell me if it doesn't look like a UFO...










you guys wished you had something as alien looking as the J-20


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## Dash

localoca said:


> you guys keep dreaming.... FGFA its a Paper Plane, J-20 its a Stealth aircraft, your Rafale, MKi and T-50 will be all scrap metal before you guys even know...
> 
> J-20



Yes, of course FGFA is a paper plane, dont worry every Indian kid will be flying one when you send 2000 of your j-20, Imagine a billion of such.


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## dbc

Dash said:


> When will you come out of the mentality that the world spins around you guys ..huh..anyway, Looks like you forgot the real meaning/difference strategic partners and strategic allies....your strategic ally was Pakistan. Thank God we are disinterested in both!


 
I feel like you just dropped your pants to show me your manhood; amusing but completely unnecessary.
India is a great nation with immense untapped potential, this deal had a greater significance for Washington then a mere commercial transaction worth a few billion dollars. 


Like Tin Man said C`est la vie..


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## Abingdonboy

localoca said:


> take a look at this pic and tell me if it doesn't look like a UFO...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you guys wished you had something as alien looking as the J-20


 
I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye- befor MMRCA two favourites were announced the Pakistnai "fan-boys" (note I HATE using this term) were more than happy with their JF-17 and F-16 saying it could handily the ENTIRE IAF in case of war (complete nonsense of course-MKI need I say more?) and now they have moves into to J-20 for _whatever_ reason even though there is NO Pakistani involvement in this project and NO confirmation PAF will even receive any (and if they do it won't ve until 2027-35 at the earliest). As I've said before- living off others (Chinese) achievements is just pathetic, it's as if you've accepted you can't compete with India anymore so you're content to hang of China's coat strings and be dragged along. Note China has no interest in helping Pakistan, it only wants to use it as a proxy against its regional rival.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## localoca

Abingdonboy said:


> I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye-


 
U mad puñeta? me no ser Pakistani coño


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye- befor MMRCA two favourites were announced the Pakistnai "fan-boys" (note I HATE using this term) were more than happy with their JF-17 and F-16 saying it could handily the ENTIRE IAF in case of war (complete nonsense of course-MKI need I say more?) and now they have moves into to J-20 for _whatever_ reason even though there is NO Pakistani involvement in this project and NO confirmation PAF will even receive any (and if they do it won't ve until 2027-35 at the earliest). As I've said before- living off others (Chinese) achievements is just pathetic, it's as if you've accepted you can't compete with India anymore so you're content to hang of China's coat strings and be dragged along. Note China has no interest in helping Pakistan, it only wants to use it as a proxy against its regional rival.


 
Hey kid... hes not Pakistani.. so stop posting brain farts.


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## GORKHALI

*Europe Wins Indian MMRCA Competition &#8211; Or So It Seems*
Anyone even remotely familiar with the vagaries and complexities of Indian defence procurement will be only too aware of the risks involved with commenting on the results of a major competition there before the relevant contract has been signed and has entered into force (as well as, on a number of occasions, even after that). 
But even with a prudent attitude, it is nowadays clear that the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted as the two final contenders in the Indian Air Force&#8217;s multi-billion-dollar MMRCA competition for the procurement (mostly through licence construction) of 126 latest-generation multi-role fighter aircraft.

Such a choice in principle obvious entails truly monumental strategic and political implications for the future of India as a whole, the more so in that it implies rejecting the Russian (MiG-35) and most particular the American offers (F-16, F/A-18). These implications will most certainly provide food for thought to commentators and analysts for many months to come. This column is however focused on a not-so-collateral aspect, namely on what the Indian choice tells us about the respective characteristics and performance of the some of the world&#8217;s leading fighter designs, competing against each other on the global defence market.

The Indian Air Force has carried out an extremely stringent and detailed competitive evaluation process, extensively testing the six competitors (Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, MiG-35, F-16, F/A-18) and assessing them against each other on a list, that included some 650 parameters. It is highly dubious whether any other air force in the world ever had the chance to perform a similar process, thus gaining a detailed, first-hand knowledge of the respective strong points and shortcomings of the best combat aircraft money can buy. And at the end of this technological evaluation process, two European designs have emerged as the best of the best.

The key point to be underlined here is that the Rafale and the Typhoon have been downselected &#8217;on technical and operational grounds alone&#8217;, that is, even before discussions and negotiations on price, technology transfer and offset are to start. This on the one hand implies that it is perfectly feasible for such discussions and negotiations to eventually fail, leading to the competition being reopened (hence, the need for a prudent attitude). But on the other hand, the conclusion is inescapable: the latest and most capable European fighter aircraft are vastly superior &#8211; in terms of design and overall performance _ to everything the US industry can currently offer. They are so superior, in fact, that after having tested them a discerning customer would not even bother to ask for the price of the American competitors. And this is so, despite both the F-16 and F/A-18 boasting the significant advantage of an arguably more advanced and most certainly way more mature combat system, including at its top a second-generation fully operational AESA radar as against European prototypes.This situation, with the likes of the Rafale and Typhoon having no real export-cleared US counterpart, has nothing to do with the capabilities and technological level of the respective aerospace industries. Rather, it is linked to the choice of the timing for the launch of the development programmes for new-generation combat aircraft on the two sides of the Atlantic, as well with the US decision to go for an uncompromising stealth approach which, just because brilliantly successful must remain the exclusive equipment of the US Air Force.

The perception of such a significant &#8220;commercial capability gap&#8221;, whereby the US will progressively become less and less able to beat off the European (and Russian) competition on the global market for combat aircraft until the F-35 becomes fully operational and credible, is not a new development. Indeed it surfaced a dozen years ago if not even earlier, and it has been the main rationale for the unprecedented decision to launch the JSF programme as a &#8220;multi-national project&#8221; &#8211; the undeclared but only too evident goals being to drain European financial resources, that would otherwise be invested in the further development of European designs, as well as lure at least some countries into taking a blind commitment towards eventually acquiring an aircraft, of unknown performance and at an unspecified price.

But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon. The competitors are, to put it mildly, a second-best choice.

It would be very interesting to watch whether this message will reverberate on other procurement decisions ahead &#8211; at least in countries, that can afford to say &#8220;no, thanks&#8221; to Washington.

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## MISTIYQUE

sorry spark i clicked on thanks button but the post got reported.......I'm new so will take time getting used to all the functions.


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## Bhairava

axisofevil said:


> Hey moron.....realize that SWAT will run rings around NSG.



Thank go atleast now this 'ABCD' realized that the equivalent of NSG is SWAT and not SEALS.And when did the SWAT run rings around the NSG ? In Xbox ?



axisofevil said:


> A retard will realize that SWAT would be able to handle this job much better.



You just realized that. Congrats.



axisofevil said:


> Why didn te use MARCOs maybe their performance is just abysmal....



Again ignorance oozing out &#8211; the MARCOS were INDEED used &#8211; in the Oberoi Trident and they did their job much sooner even though the Oberoi was much more damaged than the Taj. Please dude get a grip of the facts and then argue.



axisofevil said:


> I will blame NSG they should be teaching the gov't how their job has to be done. They need to educate the freaking politicians not the other way around.


India is not military dictatorship for them to do things or &#8216;teach&#8217; things. The Security agencies go by the rule book and the laws in the Indian constitution that are enacted by the freaking babus.



axisofevil said:


> 100m perimeter is NO perimeter. Got that......1/2 -1 mile perimeter should should been set up.


The distance between the Arabian sea and the Taj is about 100 metres..After that even if they want they cant set up a perimeter. So 100 m and in some places even less than that was the maximum possible paerimeter 



axisofevil said:


> On top that all communications should been closely monitored. We can buy all the equipment in the world but if don;t think about endless possibilities on how to sue them efficiently and then try to counter that then its useless. It took too much time to get the TAJ plans....there was no database set up in a big city like BomBay.....think this is one of the key reasons why building codes are never met and why encroachment is such an issue. SO STOP BLABBERING and blindly defending our failures you f--ing moron.....*Our politicians suck and the NSG lacks proper equipment basics like f-ing knew pads*.....but hold them acceptable to the training that's all.....I agree our NSG had no chance in hell when they lack the proper equipment. the toy o equipment they lacked is appalling, here take a look.............





First stop copying entire articles from Wiki to prove a point . You are not doing that.

Secondly when did I defend the f**king Government inaction, you f***tard ? Cuss them all you want. They wont still get the amount they rightly deserve. *My disagreement was with the inappropriate and totally out of place rantings against the NSG and their comparison with the SEALS in Op.Geronimo * which were carried out by two different units, with different Operational doctrine, different equipments, different objectives to achieve and what not ?
*
BTW this thread is totally off tangent to your topic &#8211; open a new thread and post &#8211; I will bust every single claim about the NSG and not about the politicians whom I dont have any intent of defending.*


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## Dash

Now you are talking business



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I feel like you just dropped your pants to show me your manhood; amusing but completely unnecessary.
> ..


 

"Expect change" was showing me a great arrogant American female too, completly amusing but was unnecessary... You know what it told me? It told me that you guys are sick wnough to change something for this.



> a mere commercial transaction worth a few billion dollar


You said it right???

the bottom line is nothing can be changed...



> Like Tin Man said C`est la vie



yes such is life.....


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## GORKHALI

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I feel like you just dropped your pants to show me your manhood; amusing but completely unnecessary.
> India is a great nation with immense untapped potential, this deal had a greater significance for Washington then a mere commercial transaction worth a few billion dollars.
> 
> 
> Like Tin Man said C`est la vie..



DBC !To be honest,there is nothing left for your products which you were debating for so long ,for Washington it gotta change it's policy of double standard...


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## duhastmish

united states is playing double games , 

no need to get any of their garbage unless - they choose one out of india and paksitan. 

all these baseless debate of buying american hardware is bull crapp .

how can india trust a coutnry which povide free hardware to its sole enemy ?


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## Basha_Trichy

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-337.html#post1728950

a nice article , posted on mmrca thread.

From
http://defpro.com/daily/details/805/?SID=db5719b8ffc823094d9fbd600aed030c


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## sancho

*4 Rafale alongside a Su-30MKI - Red Flag 2008/09* 




> Despite being rumored for 9 months, the selection of the Rafale and the Typhoon by the IAF came as a surprise for many observers who thought that US pressure would have prevailed and forced the Indian MoD to keep at least the F/A-18 for the final phase of the contest. Besides, few people was really convinced that the 2 most expensive fighters would be shortlisted. Yet, that's what happened and the aftermaths could spread well behong the MMRCA.
> 
> To explain its decision, the Indian MoD asserts that the shorlist has been made based on the IAF evaluation results only, thus excluding political or economical aspects. In 2009 and 2010 the IAF has indeed conducted one of the most extensive field trial campaign ever made during an international contest : no less than 640 technical points were assessed on all 6 contenders, including the now famous high altitute take off tests at Leh Air base, as well as weapons trials in the countries of origin of each plane.
> 
> The fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon emerged as the 2 best planes on technical merit only and after such a comprehensive evalution could become a valuable advertising in other international contests. The first choice of the IAF which has a requirement for 126 of these planes (extensible to 200), will most probably influence the established perception on the respective capabilities of the fighters available on the market : Indeed, US aircrafts are often seen as more capable, no mater what (this MMRCA Analysis by Mr. Tellis is a very good example of this state of mind).
> 
> As far as the Rafale is concerned, the F/A-18E elimination by the IAF is a very good news for Dassault as it might facilitate the French company resistance to Boeing's aggressive marketting in the UAE, Qatar and Koweit.
> This is also true for Brazil : The rejection of the Gripen NG and Super Hornet in India is a big setback for Saab and Boeing and one more argument in favor of the Rafale in the FX-2 contest when it will restart. We should not forget that the US ambassador in Brazil was thinking of using the (bogus) Rafale elimination in India, back in 2009, in order to discredit the French plane (as revealed by Wikileaks). The situation is clearly reversed now that the Rafale has received its "approved by the IAF" stamp.



Rafale News: MMRCA, The Indian shortlist shock wave


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## TheLionKing

localoca said:


> you guys keep dreaming....



Who told you we need your permission???



localoca said:


> *FGFA its a Paper Plane*



*Yes........it is; but let me tell you.............radars can't trace paper planes.*.........so be very careful. 



localoca said:


> your Rafale, MKi and T-50 will be all scrap metal before you guys even know...



And who will do that................you???




localoca said:


> J-20



It seems China pay you for waving their flag.

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## TheLionKing

Abingdonboy said:


> I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye- befor MMRCA two favourites were announced the Pakistnai "fan-boys" (note I HATE using this term) were more than happy with their JF-17 and F-16 saying it could handily the ENTIRE IAF in case of war *(complete nonsense of course-MKI need I say more?)* and now they have moves into to J-20 for _whatever_ reason even though *there is NO Pakistani involvement in this project and NO confirmation PAF will even receive any (and if they do it won't ve until 2027-35 at the earliest).* As I've said before- *living off others (Chinese) achievements is just pathetic,* *it's as if you've accepted you can't compete with India* anymore so you're content to hang of China's coat strings and be dragged along. Note China has no interest in helping Pakistan, it only wants to use it as a proxy against its regional rival.



*As true as the sky is blue.*


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## JanjaWeed

*congratulations to Spark for hitting a century of 'THANKS' in one post! this deserves a*

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## Laughing_soldier

localoca said:


> U mad puñeta? me no ser Pakistani coño


 

You are a Pakistani. You cannot troll being a pakistani , so you are chinese.  



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey kid... hes not Pakistani.. so stop posting brain farts.


First stop your brain fart.


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## Laughing_soldier

Abingdonboy said:


> I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye- befor MMRCA two favourites were announced the Pakistnai "fan-boys" (note I HATE using this term) were more than happy with their JF-17 and F-16 saying it could handily the ENTIRE IAF in case of war (complete nonsense of course-MKI need I say more?) and now they have moves into to J-20 for _whatever_ reason even though there is NO Pakistani involvement in this project and NO confirmation PAF will even receive any (and if they do it won't ve until 2027-35 at the earliest). As I've said before- living off others (Chinese) achievements is just pathetic, it's as if you've accepted you can't compete with India anymore so you're content to hang of China's coat strings and be dragged along. Note China has no interest in helping Pakistan, it only wants to use it as a proxy against its regional rival.


 
Appropriate reply.


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## TheLionKing

localoca said:


> Not, Rafale, Not EFT, Not MKi, Not LCA, Nothing can protect you guys from the Beast that is the J-20.
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid...




Yes we are very affraid of the Beast that is the J-20...........*don't know when it got crash landed on our head due to engine failure or some other technical fault (as it is a Chinese maal)*.......who can save us from Kamikaze.......booooohooo.


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## SpArK

JanjaWeed said:


> *congratulations to Spark for hitting a century of 'THANKS' in one post! this deserves a*


 


Wooo.. i will try to beat that if i could post the winner.


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## JanjaWeed

SpArK said:


> Wooo.. i will try to beat that if i could post the winner.


 
haha.. better be in front of the queue!! there will be a long line to break the news, considering the amt of 'thanks' you had for this one!!

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## SpArK

MISTIYQUE said:


> sorry spark i clicked on thanks button but the post got reported.......I'm new so will take time getting used to all the functions.


 
Its ok.. i am waiting for an "action" ..


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## SpArK

*Brink of deal for Lancashire-built Typhoon​*
A LANCASHIRE-made fighter jet is on the brink of being chosen by India for a £7.2billion military order, according to reports.

The Asian country is understood to want to buy Eurofighter Typhoons, which are made by defence giant BAE Systems and European partners.

The aircraft is competing against France&#8217;s Dassault Rafale for the deal, which is due to be announced soon.

India could be persuaded by a &#8216;marinised&#8217; version of Typhoon that could land on aircraft carriers.

And that could also interest the Ministry of Defence, which has just axed its fleet of Harriers, which could land on naval vessels.

Parts of Typhoon are made at BAE Samlesbury and the aircraft are assembled at Warton on the Fylde.

Brink of deal for Lancashire-built Typhoon &#40;From Lancashire Telegraph)


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## chanikya

Laughing_soldier said:


> You are a Pakistani. You cannot troll being a pakistani , so you are chinese.
> 
> 
> First stop your brain fart.


 
Chinese are very fast because they copy, indians are slow because they learn, it is that simple dude........

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## tanlixiang28776

chanikya said:


> Chinese are very fast because they copy, indians are slow because they learn, it is that simple dude........


 
Thats your excuse for everything isn't it?


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## chanikya

Laughing_soldier said:


> You are a Pakistani. You cannot troll being a pakistani , so you are chinese.
> 
> 
> First stop your brain fart.


 
Chinese are very fast because they copy, indians are slow because they learn, it is that simple dude........??????

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## tanlixiang28776

localoca said:


> DSI stealth intakes, When you Russians or you Indian Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...
> 
> go China Go...


 
Just stop. It's getting annoying.


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## tanlixiang28776

chanikya said:


> Chinese are very fast because they copy, indians are slow because they learn, it is that simple dude........??????


 
Actually its because you're just incompetent and need any excuse you can get. Its that simple.


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## GORKHALI

*One deal will not impact US-India relations: Ambassador*
NEW DELHI (PTI): Days after two American companies lost out in a multi-billion dollar combat fighter deal, US Ambassador to India Timothy J Roemer Wednesday said it will not impact the Indo-US strategic relations, which is "bigger" than any deal.

"We are disappointed. But this relationship between US and India is bigger than any one deal," he told reporters when asked whether American firms&#8217; losing out would have any impact on US-India relations.

Roemer described the US-India relations as a "global partnership" on security, environment, green technology and fighting poverty.

"We are two partners working together for global peace, global partnership. One deal does not impact that strategic relationship," he said.

The Ambassador said America was "deeply disappointed" that two of its companies &#8211; Boeing and Lockheed Martin &#8211; did not make up to be final round for the bid under which India will procure 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

"We believe that cost of F-18 and F-16 is about 70 to 80 million (dollars) a piece and the Typhoon and Rafale is around 130 million (dollars) a piece. We provided great value particularly to the tax payers of India. 

"We provided great technology. We have rather proven, mature and working (technology). I think the competitors have a radar system that they are trying to incorporate," he said.

Boeing's F-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16 were in contention for the deal.

However, after intense trials, both these fighters were not considered by the Defence Ministry which shortlisted European Eurofighter and French Dassault Rafale. Also not considered by the Ministry were MiG-35 of Russia and Saab Gripen of Sweden.


*Since When Unkil SAM worried about Indian taxpayer ???*

One deal will not impact US-India relations: Ambassador - Brahmand.com

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## Zabaniyah

Abingdonboy said:


> I find this a very interesting insight into the Pakistani pschye- befor MMRCA two favourites were announced the Pakistnai "fan-boys" (note I HATE using this term) were more than happy with their JF-17 and F-16 saying it could handily the ENTIRE IAF in case of war (complete nonsense of course-MKI need I say more?) and now they have moves into to J-20 for _whatever_ reason even though there is NO Pakistani involvement in this project and NO confirmation PAF will even receive any (and if they do it won't ve until 2027-35 at the earliest). As I've said before- living off others (Chinese) achievements is just pathetic, it's as if you've accepted you can't compete with India anymore so you're content to hang of China's coat strings and be dragged along. Note China has no interest in helping Pakistan, it only wants to use it as a proxy against its regional rival.


 
I didn't see any Pakistanis taking credit for the R&D behind J-20. The user who posted the pictures is not Pakistani.

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## bhagat

*Factors leading to American firms shown the door in MMRCA Contract
*
Last week has seen hectic write up in Indian media about recent announcements by Ministry of Defence in short listing two European Fighter jets instead of American ones which every western defence experts believed in, while idrw.org has been trying to put together pieces which lead to India over looking American fighters .

Strong reservation in Indian air force?? : Idrw.org had earlier reported how IAF Official had clarified that Indian air force will not accept any downgraded or missing components from any winning manufacturer if they deviated from original RFP, its clear now that since India didnt wanted to sign CISMO and other agreements, Iaf feared downgraded avionics in American fighter jets.

Logistical and Infrastructure problems: Idrw.org again had reported from a senior air force official that, Indian Air force could need to built a new line of logistics and infrastructure to house new line of fighter jets particularly American jets which Indian Air force have never operated in 7 decade of its operations, which meant estimated 10,000 crores extra cost for operating American jets which were needed to improve and build new line of Logistical and Infrastructure .

Non committal on Radar TOT: Idrw.org also had reported through the same source that American proposal didnt clarify or had confusing terms regarding Transfer of technology particularly regarding Second generation Aesa Radar which were offered by American firms , IAF suspected a downgraded or limited capability Aesa might be offered ,classic example quoted by official was of Australian F-18 SH having limited tracking and detection range due to software limitation or intentional software bug which later Australian expert were able to rectify after working on them for years with out us help .

Failing on Technical Grounds? : While our defence experts at idrw.org, also consider that American jets might have under performed in some condition, until further details are given out we dont want to speculate, but one of our defence experts believe that Boeings F-18 SH which has been designed for carrier operation and mostly for over the sea level flying might have suffered under high altitude test carried by Indian air force ,we are pointing out to new modern upgraded F-18 Super hornet which was offered to Indian air force which are only operated by Us Navy and Australian Air force (Mostly for sea patrol) and not the earlier F/A-18C/D models which had smaller dimensions in size, low fuel capacity and low powered engines . It is believed aircraft needed to be strengthening for carrier operations which lead to extra weight, Boeing knew about it and had offered higher trust F414-EPE, but they were not in the aircrafts tested in India. We are avoiding speculation of F-16IN part.

Chinese angle? : Indian air force had made its self clear where this aircrafts will be operated from, and it was not surprise that Chinese angle also will come into play in the decision, may be not a crucial factor but still a small tiny consideration. Lately Chinese have been very vocal about India buying American arms, which in then is allowing Chinese to shower Pakistan with their weapons giving them a perfect excuse.

Nuclear Platform: Basic idea of MMRCA aircraft was to purchase additional Mirage-2000-5/9 aircrafts for multi role operations and also to supplement more aircrafts for nuclear strike operation, its no big secret that Mirage-2000H operated by iaf have been and will be Nuke carrier for Indian air force, and now Indias Joint Nuclear command (SFC) wants to operate 40 fighter aircrafts for similar role , which means this aircrafts will come from MMRCA Winner or Sukhoi Su 30 MKI fleet operated by Indian Air force , Experts always looked up to MMRCA contract for that .operating American fighters for Nuclear operations could have signed all red flag from United states ,a small factor in decision making process but still a worth a thought .Factors leading to American firms shown the door in MMRCA Contract | idrw.org

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## RPK

*All vendors given reasons for combat jet short-listing: IAF chief*

All vendors given reasons for combat jet short-listing: IAF chief

New Delhi, May 2 (IANS) India Monday said it has individually conveyed to all six vendors in the $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat planes if their aircraft were compliant with the air force&#8217;s requirements and that there were no complaints so far from any of the four unsuccessful firms, including two from the US.

&#8216;The debrief (on compliance in flight evaluations) were conveyed to the vendors when the test was over. Everybody knows if they are complaint or not and they have been conveyed individually about it,&#8217; the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, told reporters here.

He was asked if there were any complaints from the unsuccessful vendors since India had down-selected European consortium EADS Cassidian&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale to continue in the race, which is expected to be over by March 2012.

India had Wednesday informed US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation and Swedish SAAB that their aircraft were out of the race in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender.

&#8216;As far as satisfied or dis-satisfied is concerned, when you select one aircraft, it always happens that other people are dissatisfied. There is nothing wrong with our selection process. It is only a human feeling,&#8217; Naik said when asked about the deep disappointment that the US has expressed over the rejection of their two aircraft that were in the fray.

Boeing had fielded its F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin the F-16 Super Viper, while United Aircraft Corporation had offered its under-development Mig-35 and SAAB the Gripen.

&#8216;We selected the best and it so turned out that they are European planes,&#8217; Naik said.

On the inventory of the air force&#8217;s combat fleet, the IAF chief said it was &#8216;inevitable&#8217; that there would be three or four types of aircraft, though it was desirable to have just one or two types.

In the next 10 to 15 years, he said India would have Sukhoi SU-30s, the MMRCA, the fifth generation fighter aircraft jointly being developed with Russia and the indigenous light combat aircraft in the IAF inventory.

Naik said IAF&#8217;s fleet modernisation plans were now on track. He said the IAF had done their job on evaluating the six contenders for the MMRCA and now it was for the government to select the lowest bidder in the tender, which was being done according to the defence procurement procedure.


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## RPK

The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost


*The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist*
April 5, 2011
By Saurabh Joshi

The Indian Air Force (IAF) commander Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik had announced in February at Aero India 2011 in Bangalore that the shortlist for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender would be announced in the next few weeks. Then a few weeks back, he upped the pressure on the Ministry of Defense again, while addressing the Indian Women&#8217;s Press Corps. Indo-Asian News Service reported him as saying, &#8220;The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year.&#8221;

This pressure is likely intended to get the ministry to move on the outstanding issues related to the MMRCA tender process. Work remains to be done for it to be taken to its logical conclusion (The response this pressure elicits may well be a separate soap opera altogether). But the ministry is also under pressure to meet the April-end deadline for the expiry of the commercial offers submitted by the six vendors. The MMRCA-6 vendors were required to either extend the validity of their bids or resubmit them last year, after they expired.

The key issue holding up movement right now is the business of evaluating offsets for the estimated USD 10 billion contract. The terms of the tender mandate the winning vendor to plough back 50 per cent of the value of the contract into India, something that is hoped to boost Indian defense industry. Although the MMRCA tender is governed by the Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) of 2006, which generally mandates a 30 per cent offset requirement, an exception was made in the case of the fighter aircraft purchase, keeping in mind the expected value of the contract.

New rules under the DPP of 2011, announced in January, expanded the canvas of options for offset investments to include sectors and services like civil aviation, homeland/internal security and training. This was largely because the MMRCA-6 complained of the existing inability of Indian defense industry to absorb work under offsets, in any substantial manner. Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony, however, made clear that these rules would not apply with retrospective effect, precluding the six fighter aircraft manufacturers from taking advantage of the increased options.

StratPost recently reported moves by the ministry to amend the DPP to change the offset evaluation process by inviting only vendors shortlisted as technically qualified to submit offset proposals, and get Law Ministry approval to apply them with retrospective effect, so as to ease the amount of work involved in offset evaluation.

The Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee of the Defense Ministry has been struggling to formulate the requirements for the offset proposals that the vendors would have to match, with a series of delays, and still no terms set in black and white. The last date of January 28 proposed, by which vendors would have to submit offsets proposals that were compliant with the requirements of the ministry, whistled past, with nary a word about the amended requirements. The MMRCA-6 were told to hold on until further notice.

South Block corridor gossip has been speculating that the ministry might simply go ahead with the shortlist on the basis of the flight evaluation trials conducted by the IAF, while extracting undertakings from the shortlisted vendors to comply with any offset requirements cooked up later.

But according to Appendix D of the chapter on &#8216;Buy&#8217; and &#8216;Buy and Make&#8217; categories in the DPP of 2006, which lays down the procedure for implementing offsets&#8217; provisions: &#8216;The offset offer will be examined in two stages by the Acquisition Wing. In the first stage, the first part of the offset offer (refer Para 6.1 and 6.2 above) will be examined to ensure that the offset offer fulfils the mandatory requirements and thereby qualifies the vendor for opening of its commercial offset bid.&#8217;

The technical offset offer is different from the commercial offset offer in that it does not contain the commercial values of the offset proposals.

The procedure also says: &#8216;These Commercial Offset Offers would be opened along with the main commercial offer. The CNC would verify that the Commercial Offset Offers meet the stipulated offset obligations.&#8217;

This means that the evaluation of the technical offsets offers has to be completed before the commercial offset offers are examined, simultaneous with the opening of the commercial bids. It should be noted that the commercial offset offers have no bearing on the determination of the L1 (lowest bidding and technically qualified) vendor.

A question that immediately arises from this is how the respective Commercial Offset Offers would remain valid, submitted as they are in sealed envelopes, if the Technical Offset Offers have not been validated yet by the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee? Even if the DPP is amended with retrospective effect, the ministry would then have to validate technical offsets proposals from the selected vendors and iron-out any mismatch with the existing commercial offsets proposals.

Unlike as laid down in DPP 2008 and 2011, under the 2006 procedure, there is no provision for the selected L1 to be able to amend the commercial offset offer after it is opened.

The DPP says the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee will &#8216;examine the technical offset offers and shortlist the vendors meeting the offset obligations&#8217;. [The language in the 2008 and 2011 iterations reads: The (Technical Offset Evaluation) Committee will examine the compliance of technical offset offers by the vendors for meeting the offset obligations.]

There has been speculation that none of the aircraft are fully technically compliant with the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR). If this is indeed the case, in theory, the ministry could simply select the single most compliant aircraft open its commercial bid. In this Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonable.

The CNC will only open the &#8216;sealed commercial offers of the technically accepted vendors&#8217;. &#8216;In case of procurement of new equipment on single vendor/resultant single vendor basis, CNC should establish a benchmark and reasonableness of price in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer,&#8217; says the DPP.

If the L1 vendor&#8217;s price is found to match the benchmark, further negotiations are discouraged. &#8216;Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations. The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.&#8217;

There is room for an exception though. &#8216;In multi-vendor cases, on opening of commercial offers, once L1 vendor is identified the contract should be concluded with him and there would be no need for any further price negotiations. However, negotiations can be held in exceptional circumstances where valid logical reasons exist and such negotiations should be held only with L1.&#8217;

But a Resultant Single Vendor selection would also mean that the L1 vendor&#8217;s pricing would not be subject to contest from any other vendor. The ministry could also end up with sticker shock, and have to deal with a substantial mismatch between the benchmark price range arrived at by the CNC and the bid submitted by the vendor.

In the event of such a situation, where no aircraft is fully compliant, it would perhaps make more sense to avoid a Resultant Single Vendor shortlist and select those aircraft that satisfy the essential must-haves of the IAF. This would also allow for a wider range of offsets proposals, besides ensuring price competition.

Another issue, although perhaps not as obviously crucial, is that of Transfer of Technology (ToT). The DPP considers it desirable that the Licensed Production contract be negotiated along with the contract for the finished product. &#8216;In cases where this is not feasible, the purchase contract should include a clause wherein the vendor agrees to negotiate the license contract at a subsequent date, thus obtaining a commitment from the vendor to part with the ToT. In cases, where ToT for Maintenance Infrastructure is being sought, the maintenance contract involving the OEM and the industry receiving the technology would also be negotiated along with the main contract.&#8217;

The problem with this is that any negotiation on Licensed Production and ToT that takes place after the selection of the winning aircraft would put the ministry in a position of disadvantage. An agreement in this regard may be less than optimal for India, as the winning vendor, sitting pretty after selection, might not be overly inclined to bend to Indian requirements. Licensed Production and ToT should be seen as at least as important as the aircraft purchase itself, as they have the potential to provide the skills, knowledge and investment to jump-start the Indian defense and aerospace industry. Anything less would mean India shortchanged.

At this time, industry watchers are unsure of the practicality of an imminent announcement of the shortlist at this time. The stability of the Indian government has been increasingly uncertain over the serial disclosures of corruption scandals in the past few months. Even though the government finally acceded to opposition demands for the setting up of an inquiry committee into alleged kickbacks paid for the grant of licenses granted to telecommunication firms for spectrum for running 2G services, other corruption scandals have serially materialized. These include the scandal over allotment of S-Band spectrum by the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO), the cash-for-votes scandal which alleges the ruling party to have purchased the votes of legislators to support the government&#8217;s stand on the Indo-US nuclear deal, the Commonwealth Games kickbacks, the controversial appointment of PJ Thomas as Chief Vigilance Commissioner (CVC) and the brewing scandal over Indian money being stashed in Swiss banks. Needless to say, Parliament ended its session with an uneasy armistice in the run-up to elections in three states, for which voting began on Monday.

The IAF commander had couched his optimism with a caveat &#8211; &#8216;provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings&#8217;. The announcement of a shortlist is unlikely to see the spurned vendors go away quietly. Defense deals in India are keenly-followed, considering the number of times they&#8217;ve fallen on the wrong side of the line of propriety and been canceled. Observers are therefore unsure if the government would hand over another possible brickbat to the opposition, so soon.

But if the commercial bids are not opened by April 28, the government would have to ask the vendors to resubmit or extend the validity of their commercial bids, again. This is being seen as something to which ministry officials now appear increasingly resigned and for which the MMRCA-6 should be ready.

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## SpArK

BoeingDefense's last advert for MMRCA F/A-18 featuring IAF Su-30MKI

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## SpArK

*EFT the Tranche 3 Issues.
​*
*Tranche 3
*
With pressure increasing on defence budgets, especially for the British MoD who had a 36 billion pound funding black hole, *Tranche 3 was under a very real threat of being cancelled.*

*The partner nations, in particular Germany, applied pressure on the British Government to sign the contract but the British insisted that costs must be reduced before they would do that.
*

To help the situation the tranche was broken into two parts, Tranche 3A and 3B.

A break through was finally made. *The British would take their full allocation of 40 Tranche 3A Typhoons in exchange for 900 million pounds worth of savings achieved from reductions to the support contracts by BAE, Rolls-Royce and other partners.
*

Tranche 3A is due to start being delivered in 2013 and completing in 2016. The exact specification of Tranche 3A isnt known at the time of writing as it is still being negotiated (the Tranche 3A contract signed only agrees to the production of a Tranche 3A not the capability of those aircraft) but it is expected they will be based on Tranche 2 with phased upgrades being included from 2014.

The British MoD has stated that with the signing of the contract for the production of Trance 3A the programme had reached the financial ceiling agreed in the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) and therefore had no further obligation to purchase their allocation of Tranche 3B Typhoons. Eurofighter GmbH at the time said this would be a matter for the partner nations to discuss and May 2010 submitted a proposal to the partner nations for the 124 Tranche 3B Typhoons. Eurofighter GmbH hope to have a decision by 2012 allowing them to keep production going.

*If the partner nations do not take their allocation the future of Trance 3B looks bleak. The British havent totally ruled out making further purchases of Typhoons, instead saying they are unlikely to do so but reserve the right. The Italian Defence Minister said in July 2010 that they would be cutting their order by 25 aircraft, representing the Italians allocation of Tranche 3B aircraft.*

Without Tranche 3B to keep the production lines open time is short for Eurofighter GmbH to attract export customers and the they are aware of this. BAE Systems have said they have forecast the Tranche 3B not being signed on time in their latest financial projection and as part of the Eurofighter consortium they expect to sign an export agreement between the UK and Oman within a year. The Eurofighter consortium is also competing for orders from India and Japan; although the Japanese have indicated they prefer to purchase more of the locally constructed F-2 aircraft based on the F-16 after failing to get the US to agree to sell them the F-22 Raptor.




*Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT)
*

Like other fighter aircraft Typhoon is capable of using external (drop) tanks to increase its fuel capacity. These tanks can be fitted to the three wet points located on the fuselage centre point and the middle point on both wings. The addition of these tanks do bring a number of drawbacks. The loss of the two wing points means less points to attach ordinance and the centre point is also used to attach a targeting pod. The tanks also increase drag; although Typhoon is still capable of going supersonic with all three tanks fitted (tested to Mach 1.6 with three 1000 litre tanks).

Conformal Fuel Tanks would offer a solution to this problem with two semi-permanent tanks grafted onto the fuselage, each offering 1500 litres of fuel, without the loss of any points and reduced levels of drag. You will have seen them used on the F-15E Strike Eagle and starting to be seen more commonly on F-16s.

*At present only Britain has shown interest in having CFTs. BAE have tested a scale model in a wind tunnel and are working on development with GKN Engage.*


*3D Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC)
*
Thrust Vectoring Control allows the nozzle on the engine to be deflected to enhance the agility of the fighter. With 3D TVC the nozzles are able to move up, down, left and right or a combination e.g. up and left.

*No partner nation has expressed an interested in having TVC. Eurojet, the consortium of companies that produces the engines for Typhoon, is hoping to attract support for TVC by concentrating on the benefits provided above the enhanced agility.*

Eurojet has said TVC would decrease fuel burn, increase the life of hot running components and reduce take off distance (particularly useful in hot and high environments).

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## sudhir007




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## footmarks

Break the Silence said:


> I DESPERATELY HOPE that Rafale will be stationed at Jamnagar and Bareily..


 
Me too..And Bareilly is my home town too. Will be proud to see Rafale/EFT parked alongside MKI there. BTW, MKI look awesome in real, better than in pictures

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> If the partner nations do not take their allocation the future of Trance 3B looks bleak. The British havent totally ruled out making further purchases of Typhoons, instead saying they are unlikely to do so but reserve the right. The Italian Defence Minister said in July 2010 that they would be cutting their order by 25 aircraft, representing the Italians allocation of Tranche 3B aircraft.


 
In addition to that, the German government had provided a budget to buy 180 Eurofighter in the late 90s, but with the increased costs the whole budget was used up with the order of the 31 Tranche 3A fighters. According to calculations of the FM around 3 billion Euros would be needed additionally to procure the 37 fighters of the T3B. But although Germany is one of the few countries in Europe that came out the financial crisis without much problems, the government decided to cut the cost of the military. Moreover they want to reshape the military stuctures and want to make the Bundeswehr smaller, but and more cost - effective! This makes the clearance of another 3 billions very questionable and it is more likely that they will try to sell these fighters to other export countries, or even cancell it as well.

Spain the last member is even in bigger trouble, because the finacial anc Euro crisis hit them so hard, that they are close to bankruptcy! If the have to be bailed out like Greece, Ireland, or now Portugal, they will have to face big government budget cuts, which of course will hit the defense procurements as well.

The EF consortium companies made it pretty clear recently, if the partners don't order the T3B soon and there won't be an order of an export customer, the EF productionline will be closed by 2015!


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## sancho

> *MMRCA J'anes according to Defense*
> 
> RAHUL Bedi - Correspondent
> 
> New Delhi
> 
> The Ministry of Defence (MoD) in India, the six competitors to the program of ten billion dollars from Indian Air Force - Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), said the finalists Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale.
> 
> Ministry officials said on April 28 that, based on technical evaluation of six aircraft by the IAF carried out in 2010, would invite the Typhoon and Rafale to extend its commercial offerings for 12 months. This was confirmed to Indian offices by Dassault and EADS, which is marketing the Typhoon in India.
> 
> The proposals will expire at the end of the month. Bids will be opened in the coming weeks and then price negotiations will begin to finalize an agreement, which is expected to increase from 126 to 200 fighters at a cost estimated between $ 15 billion and $ 16 billion.
> 
> The IAF has submitted the test report of all six candidates for the MMRCA the Ministry of Defence in July 2010, after evaluating them in 643 technical aspects in desert conditions, coastal and high altitude, in India and suppliers in their countries.
> 
> Senior Ministry of Defence, New Delhi, told that they had informed their decision makers of the other four candidates - the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN, the United Aircraft Corporation MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen.
> 
> Officials from the Ministry of Defence of India told that they selected the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale MMRCA for the competition.
> The decision eliminates the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN, the Saab JAS 39 Gripen and the MiG-35 UAC
> 
> Saab released a statement on April 27, in which he said was "not on the short list for the program MMRCA of India."
> 
> Lockheed Martin, which sold six military transport aircraft C-130J Super Hercules to India in March 2008, said in a statement it "remains committed to the relationship with the IAF, the Ministry of Defence and other services."
> 
> Boeing said it was "obviously disappointed with the outcome" and, after a review would "take a decision about the possible options, keeping in mind the impact for the Indian Air Force."
> 
> Representatives of the other Contracting competitor, the Russian company United Aircraft Corporation, who was participating with his MiG-35, had not responded to questions when the went to press.
> 
> Sources in the Indian Defense Ministry said they had considered asking all six competitors to revalidate their commercial offerings for another year, and April 30, 2011, but, given the great interest of the countries involved and incessant lobbying by their fighters, opted to select only two aircraft.
> 
> In contrast to the decisions of previous competitions, a trade negotiating committee, composed of MoD, IAF officials from industry and finance, will base its decision on the life cycle costs over 40 years and 6,000 flight hours fighters.
> 
> The IAF will acquire 18 aircraft off the shelf "within 36 months after signing the agreement. The remaining 108 of the initial batch will be built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore.
> 
> The deal also involves the MMRCA mandatory compensation (offset) of 50 percent of local investment, to date only in the Defence sector in India - above the stipulated percentage of 30 percent required for all military purchases exceeding Rs 3 billion ( USD 71.42 million).
> 
> The U.S. ambassador, Timothy J. Roemer, who had been lobbying hard in favor of candidates from Boeing and Lockheed Martin to MMRCA, said in a statement: "We are deeply disappointed by this news ...We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our partnership with India in defense and remain convinced that the U.S. offer to our partners in Defense around the world, the most advanced technology and reliable existing "

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## tallboy123

*Eurofighter typhoon has US technology and parts.....*

*Rafale has No US technology and parts.....*


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## WHITESMOKE

As the partner countries itself are not sure about the future of tiffy plus the increasing cost... i think Rafale is clear winner. May be Euro fighter is in the list just to put some pressure on french. Whatever so, its only the Rafale that will shake hand with MKI


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## indianpatriot

^^thats perhaps F-22 raptor in the second pic plus rafale is better than J-20 because presently it is more capable as yours is very under developed...plus yours apparently is a 5 gen aircraft...its still like a new born.


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## koushik

localoca said:


> Chinese 5th gen High Tech>>French 4th Gen High Tech


 
i dont think so.j-20 is a new born.rafale is much better at the moment.


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## SpArK

*French AASM Demonstrates Outstanding Versatility in Libyan Campaign​*




AASM being reloaded on Rafale - 2011/04

The Libyan campaign has emphasized unique advantages of the French AASM-250 autonomous guided weapons. Previously criticized in the media as an excessively expensive weapon, AASM proved its value in offering operational flexibility, in providing small fighting formations the effects achied by much larger strike forces. The weapon was developed to meet a wide range of counter-air and offensive air missions, including Counter Air Defense/(Suppression of Enemy Air Defense  SEAD), Air Interdiction and Deep Strikes, to Close Air Support (CAS) including precision attacks in urban environments, as well as anti-ship missions.







*Relying on the AASM extended stand-off range, Rafales were tasked to suppress and destroy SA-3 air defense sites during the initial phases of the conflict. During these strikes, utilizing the Rafales on-board sensor fusion capability, integrating data obtained from on-board sensors and external sources, delivered over Link-16, the fighters could generate strike coordinates based on real-time data, and feed it to the weapon in flight. The French fighters succeeded to hit the active sites with AASM, launching the weapons from long distance, outside the SA-3 launch envelope.* Since each individual weapon is programmed with specific target coordinates, multiple weapons can be employed from the same aircraft, to attack different targets. Each weapon can be reprogrammed in flight, enabling it to engage several targets simultaneously (up to six in the case of the Rafale.)

A significant advantage of the AASM is the ability to retarget the weapon from the cockpit, just before launch. A Rafale carrying six weapons, each programmed with six different targets prior to takeoff. In addition to hitting each of the targets, the same fighter can re-attack targets already engaged but not destroyed, ensuring mission success, avoiding the high risk and costs involved with repeat missions, following battle damage assessment. Overall, Sagem claims a mission success rate of over 90%, compared to 70%, achieved by unpowered (gliding) laser guided or geo-targeted weapons, which are also restricting mission planning in flight envelope, flight trajectory, impact angle and penetration.

When employed against air defense assets, the combination of the weapons stand-off range and re-attack capability means an air defense site would be taken out of operation for longer periods, delivering higher success rate in SEAD operations and precision attacks of high value targets. Another important capability, particularly in todays hybrid warfare, is the weapons flexibility in striking time critical targets. During the recent attacks in Libya, a Rafale pilot clearly demonstrated such method, when spotting a Libyan Soko G2 Galeb aircraft flying near Misrata. *As the Libyan plane landed at the base, the Rafale pilot acquired its coordinates as a target of opportunity, fed the data to the weapon and launched the GPS/INS guided AASM against the target. As the weapon dropped, it homed in on the exact spot and destroyed the Libyan aircraft on the tarmac.*


Operational with the French Air Force, and French Naval Aviation, AASM is produced made by Safran subsidiary Sagem DS. The weapon was first deployed in Afghanistan with the French Rafale in 2008. The baseline AASM kit comprises of the INS/GPS guidance system, designed for standard 250 kg (500 pounds) bombs. The AASM family will eventually include 125, 500 and 1,000 kg (250, 1000, and 2000 pounds) versions. Since the French forces have received only the initial deliveries of 3,500 weapons ordered, chances are that the used inventory could be replenished by extending current production runs. It is assumed that new weapons could be delivered at considerably lower costs than the original ones, as the manufacturer has stepped up the learning curve. Nevertheless, the cost of a basic AASM is still expected to ship at around $300,000 apiece (200,000).
The weapon uses a booster/sustainer rocket engine accelerating it to the designated cruising speed and altitude, from where it is designed to continue through an autonomous operation, in day or night and in all weather conditions. It can be released at low altitude, and can also be fired up to 180 degrees off-axis in relation to the aircrafts flight path, (backwards) attacking targets from any direction, from standoff distance exceeding 50 km.

AASM-250 weapons are currently fitted with inertial/GPS guidance. The addition of semi-active laser seeker, and algorithms to track fixed or mobile targets during the terminal phase, will enhance the operational flexibility of the AASM family. Two versions are currently available and qualified for firing by the Rafale multirole fighter  the inertial/GPS and soon to be fielded inertial/GPS/infrared. The laser terminal guidance version of the AASM is expected to enter volume production for the French air force and navy starting at the end of 2012.
In addition to the basic GPS/INS guidance, AASM will also offer optional terminal guidance kits. These add-on features currently under development, will increase attack precision and enable engagement of fast moving targets. The infra-red seeker enables the weapon to hit small targets with distinctive signature, overcoming target location errors y undertaking a terminal correction just before impact. The semi-active laser seeker, along with associated moving target algorithms enable engagement of any surface target (stationary or moving) illuminated by a target designator, even targets travelling at high speed.

The AASM-125 was successfully tested in February 2009 on a Mirage 2000. The AASM-1000 is under development, as are new features such as airburst and data link. The AASM has also been selected to equip the Moroccan Mirage F-1s and are considered a likely choice for Air Forces considering the French Rafale (India, Brazil). Sagem is also addressing other platforms as well, including opportunities to arm Mirage 2000s in foreign service.

Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)


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## palash_kol

localoca said:


> Chinese 5th gen High Tech>>French 4th Gen High Tech


 
@localoca : Look at the name of the thread ......then bring the J-20 discussion in this thread....

I dont know what you want to prove..... May be you want to prove that J-20 is the best aircraft available today worldwide....But you can do that in J-20 news and discussion.....Why are you bringing J-20 in India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist thread ???? - Either you are toooo immature or you are the best J-20 lover available today worldwide......and thats why you are bringing J-20 in every context.....


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## SpArK

palash_kol said:


> @localoca : Look at the name of the thread ......then bring the J-20 discussion in this thread....
> 
> I dont know what you want to prove..... May be you want to prove that J-20 is the best aircraft available today worldwide....But you can do that in J-20 news and discussion.....Why are you bringing J-20 in India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist thread ???? - Either you are toooo immature or you are the best J-20 lover available today worldwide......and thats why you are bringing J-20 in every context.....


 
I have reported atleast 3-4 off topic posts. It seems Mods are nt interested.


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## Pak_Sher

The Rafale will be good aircraft for the IAF.


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## KEETARP

tallboy123 said:


> *Eurofighter typhoon has US technology and parts.....*
> 
> *Rafale has No US technology and parts.....*



Rubbish , Rafale has .................US parts .

Search for it , infact this very forum 14 months back ; I only posted the details . If you still don't get it , i will post it again


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## Break the Silence

footmarks said:


> Me too..And Bareilly is my home town too. Will be proud to see Rafale/EFT parked alongside MKI there. BTW, MKI look awesome in real, better than in pictures


 
Yeah, MKI looks awsome in real. Interesting to see a partenership b/w Mki(air superiority) & Rafale(multirole).
p.s. Rafale if selected.


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## palash_kol

PRATEEK said:


> Rubbish , Rafale has .................US parts .
> 
> Search for it , infact this very forum 14 months back ; I only posted the details . If you still don't get it , i will post it again



Rafale has US parts!!!!!! - may be very few.

Prove it......post that again......

Everybody is eager to know which parts of rafale comes from US......and if so - isn't that possible to replace those parts with french parts or indian parts???


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## kingdurgaking

Break the Silence said:


> Yeah, MKI looks awsome in real. Interesting to see a partenership b/w Mki(air superiority) & Rafale(multirole).
> p.s. Rafale if selected.


 
MKI is not air superiority dude.. it was initially designed on air superiority and it is now purely multirole... you have to guess what is used in searching for the crashed choppers in asam... an air superiority can never be used for such operations...


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## KEETARP

palash_kol said:


> Rafale has US parts!!!!!! - may be very few.
> 
> Prove it......post that again......
> 
> Everybody is eager to know which parts of rafale comes from US......and if so - isn't that possible to replace those parts with french parts or indian parts???



Dont have much time to post in detail , My duty call at 1400 hrs.

In short - 

*US components of Rafale* - 

Airco industries 
Cockpit leading edge navigation pannel 

Avtron Manufacturing
Electrical ,Electronic , Hydraulic & Fuel component Test Equipment .

Magnolia Plastics, Inc
Syntactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics

Columbus Jack Corporation
Jacks, towbars, tire bead breakers & GSE

Ducommun Technologies , Carson, CA
Illuminated switches

Ducommun Technologies, Inc. CA	
Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies

Goodrich Corporation , Ohio USA
Engine temperature sensors + Sensors & Integrated Systems

Eaton Aerospace Centurion , USA
Pneumatic components & ducting systems + Mechanical Seals + Solenoid valves

Esterline Technologies Corp , USA 
high-precision temperature and pressure sensors, fluid and motion control components

Farwest Aircraft , Boeing USA owned
Engine positioners; jacks; recovery systems 
ground support equipment (GSE)

Microturbo S.A , Texas
Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU

Thales North America Inc.
SPECTRA components 

Rexnord Industries, LLC , USA
Bearings: Seals & bearings

Moog Controls (UK)
Automatic Flight Control Systems: Primary flight controls

RUAG Aerospace Swiss Tech , Bern - Switzerland 
Fuel Tanks & Systems + Under wing fuel tanks



Omega technologies USA 
Fastners , drillers , install prep 

Avibank - North Hollywood , CA
Tool numbers B7 - to 555

SPS Mfg - Hollywood , CA
Latches , hold-open rods , quick release rods , pannels

Fastening Systems International , CA uSA
Blind rivet tooling

Adtron now subsidery of Smart Modular USA
Flashpack solid-state Flash memory , drives for avionics 

CSE - USA
Clamping device 


*to be continued ............... tommorow on sunday *


If you have full subscription , follow this site 
http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale






Rafale has the following US suppliers

Hexcel Composites (US) Carbon Fibre: Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics 
Magnolia Plastics, Inc: Synthactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics 
Orelube: Synthetic Lubricants: Boelube
Rexnord Aerospace : Bearings: Seals & bearings 
HiRel Connectors, Inc: Electrical & Electronic Connectors: Connectors, removal crimp and hermetic solder contacts 
Avibank Mfg. Inc: Fasteners: Pins, bolts, fasteners & accessories 
Ho-Ho-Kus, Inc: Fasteners: Clamps and fasteners, nuts, bolts & screws 
Eaton Aerospace Phelps Valve : Pumps, valves, level sensors, pressure switches, refuel/defuel manifolds, and couplings 
Rexnord Cartriseal :Mechanical Seals: Contacting & non-contacting face and circumferential seals 
Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems : Sensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors 
Technofan: Air Conditioning Equipment: Valves & fans; cockpit air conditioning system 
Ducommun Technologies, Inc: Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies 
Microturbo S.A: Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU 
Omega Technologies, Inc:Insertion/Removal Tools: Fastener installation & removal tools; hole drilling & preparation tools 
Thales North America Inc: Electronic Warfare Systems: SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare system operating in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains 

*DBC had posted from same site earlier contact her for time being , will see you tommorow *





NON FRENCH , NON - US COMPONENTS

1) SNMECA M88 CORE Metal and Alloy castings - By TITAN TECH Germany
28 Titanium components and 1 aluminium components including TITANIUM-ALUMINIUM investment casting by TITAN GmBH Germany.

2) Aerotech herman Nelson , Canada
Portable heaters 

3) subsidiary of LFK GmbH / MBDA Deutschland , Germany 
Gel propulsion , Propulsion charges , ducted motors 

-Antriebe mbH , Germany 
Power couplings 

-Behr Industrietechnik GmbH,

-Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH
Cabin Pressure Control Systems

-Chelton (Electrostatics) , UK 
Antennas 
Engine cooling , Germany 

-EADS 
Automatic test equipment 


Bye for now

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## satishkumarcsc

PRATEEK said:


> Dont have much time to post in detail , My duty call at 1400 hrs.
> 
> In short -
> 
> *US components of Rafale* -
> 
> Airco industries
> Cockpit leading edge navigation pannel
> 
> Avtron Manufacturing
> Electrical ,Electronic , Hydraulic & Fuel component Test Equipment .
> 
> Magnolia Plastics, Inc
> Syntactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics
> 
> Columbus Jack Corporation
> Jacks, towbars, tire bead breakers & GSE
> 
> Ducommun Technologies , Carson, CA
> Illuminated switches
> 
> Ducommun Technologies, Inc. CA
> Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies
> 
> Goodrich Corporation , Ohio USA
> Engine temperature sensors + Sensors & Integrated Systems
> 
> Eaton Aerospace Centurion , USA
> Pneumatic components & ducting systems + Mechanical Seals + Solenoid valves
> 
> Esterline Technologies Corp , USA
> high-precision temperature and pressure sensors, fluid and motion control components
> 
> Farwest Aircraft , Boeing USA owned
> Engine positioners; jacks; recovery systems
> ground support equipment (GSE)
> 
> Microturbo S.A , Texas
> Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU
> 
> Thales North America Inc.
> SPECTRA components
> 
> Rexnord Industries, LLC , USA
> Bearings: Seals & bearings
> 
> Moog Controls (UK)
> Automatic Flight Control Systems: Primary flight controls
> 
> RUAG Aerospace Swiss Tech , Bern - Switzerland
> Fuel Tanks & Systems + Under wing fuel tanks
> 
> 
> 
> Omega technologies USA
> Fastners , drillers , install prep
> 
> Avibank - North Hollywood , CA
> Tool numbers B7 - to 555
> 
> SPS Mfg - Hollywood , CA
> Latches , hold-open rods , quick release rods , pannels
> 
> Fastening Systems International , CA uSA
> Blind rivet tooling
> 
> Adtron now subsidery of Smart Modular USA
> Flashpack solid-state Flash memory , drives for avionics
> 
> CSE - USA
> Clamping device
> 
> 
> *to be continued ............... tommorow on sunday *
> 
> 
> If you have full subscription , follow this site
> http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale has the following US suppliers
> 
> Hexcel Composites (US) Carbon Fibre: Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics
> Magnolia Plastics, Inc: Synthactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics
> Orelube: Synthetic Lubricants: Boelube
> Rexnord Aerospace : Bearings: Seals & bearings
> HiRel Connectors, Inc: Electrical & Electronic Connectors: Connectors, removal crimp and hermetic solder contacts
> Avibank Mfg. Inc: Fasteners: Pins, bolts, fasteners & accessories
> Ho-Ho-Kus, Inc: Fasteners: Clamps and fasteners, nuts, bolts & screws
> Eaton Aerospace Phelps Valve : Pumps, valves, level sensors, pressure switches, refuel/defuel manifolds, and couplings
> Rexnord Cartriseal :Mechanical Seals: Contacting & non-contacting face and circumferential seals
> Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems : Sensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors
> Technofan: Air Conditioning Equipment: Valves & fans; cockpit air conditioning system
> Ducommun Technologies, Inc: Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies
> Microturbo S.A: Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU
> Omega Technologies, Inc:Insertion/Removal Tools: Fastener installation & removal tools; hole drilling & preparation tools
> Thales North America Inc: Electronic Warfare Systems: SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare system operating in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains
> 
> *DBC had posted from same site earlier contact her for time being , will see you tommorow *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NON FRENCH , NON - US COMPONENTS
> 
> 1) SNMECA M88 CORE Metal and Alloy castings - By TITAN TECH Germany
> 28 Titanium components and 1 aluminium components including TITANIUM-ALUMINIUM investment casting by TITAN GmBH Germany.
> 
> 2) Aerotech herman Nelson , Canada
> Portable heaters
> 
> 3) subsidiary of LFK GmbH / MBDA Deutschland , Germany
> Gel propulsion , Propulsion charges , ducted motors
> 
> -Antriebe mbH , Germany
> Power couplings
> 
> -Behr Industrietechnik GmbH,
> 
> -Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH
> Cabin Pressure Control Systems
> 
> -Chelton (Electrostatics) , UK
> Antennas
> Engine cooling , Germany
> 
> -EADS
> Automatic test equipment
> 
> 
> Bye for now


 
Reply to p2prada in


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## koushik

Just look at the Indian Arsenal that will be present in the future Su-30MKI,Rafale,Mirage-2000-5 MK2,mig-29SMT,LCA MK-I and MK-II,sukhoi PAK FA and FGFA hell of an airforce in the next decade.


----------



## tallboy123

PRATEEK said:


> Rubbish , Rafale has .................US parts .
> 
> Search for it , infact this very forum 14 months back ; I only posted the details . If you still don't get it , i will post it again


 
*Rafale may have US manufactured parts,but the technology is FRENCH!!!!*

*If US won't manufacture,French can manufacture coz they have the design and they will tansfer the design to HAL under Full ToT agreement!!!
hope u got it*


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## GORKHALI

I think we must understand that we live in *Globalization Era* where it really impossible for any Firm to procure every parts of any aircraft from its country or its organization itself ,so what really matters is_ OEM_ should support its Product and nothing can beat _Dassault_ in this area.

Regards


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## peaceful

tallboy123 said:


> *Rafale may have US manufactured parts,but the technology is FRENCH!!!!*
> 
> *If US won't manufacture,French can manufacture coz they have the design and they will tansfer the design to HAL under Full ToT agreement!!!
> hope u got it*



but why india needs such details? 

the control software, radar, missiles, engines, you simply don't have the industrial base to manufacture it. 

take the engine for example, you can't manufacture it until you have breakthrough on material science. what is new delhi regime's spending on material science research every year?


----------



## peaceful

koushik said:


> Just look at the Indian Arsenal that will be present in the future Su-30MKI,Rafale,Mirage-2000-5 MK2,mig-29SMT,LCA MK-I and MK-II,sukhoi PAK FA and FGFA hell of an airforce in the next decade.


 
yet none of them can be built completely in india. not even to mention design. 

btw, how india is going to counter our J-20? using PakFA? haha


----------



## Ammyy

peaceful said:


> yet none of them can be* built completely* in india. not even to mention design.
> 
> btw, how india is going to counter our *J-20?* using PakFA? haha


 
I think some one forget about Russian engine is all their fighters 

Included J20


----------



## GORKHALI

peaceful said:


> yet none of them can be built completely in india. not even to mention design.
> 
> btw, how india is going to counter our J-20? using PakFA? haha


 
Do you have Details about J 20 ???? or again you started your *poo poo* in PDF ??


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## Ammyy

PANDORA said:


> Do you have Details about J 20 ???? or again you started your *poo poo* in PDF ??


 
this time they copy it from Aliens thats why he knows that J20 is better

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## tallboy123

peaceful said:


> yet none of them can be built completely in india. not even to mention design.
> 
> btw, how india is going to counter our J-20? using PakFA? haha



don't compare J-20 to Pak-Fa or FGFA....
J-20' doesn not have a 2D TVC like F-22 raptor,let alone 3D TVC
and those big canards and big size of the aircraft....
Let the details of J-20 come out,till then shut ut big mouth...

Now Better worry about Rafale or typhoon...


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## JPUSINVNSCK

Why not to pick typhoon?You guys make a trouble choice to your ownself.Thats sucks.


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## Ammyy

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> Why not to pick typhoon?You guys make a trouble choice to your ownself.Thats sucks.


 
Do you have any better choice ????

Are you happy with Americans sanctions ?????


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## tallboy123

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> Why not to pick typhoon?You guys make a trouble choice to your ownself.Thats sucks.


 
$11 billion is not a small amount....

Small mistake in decision will become nightmare for us for coming next 30 years!!!!

*So let the BEST WIN!!!!!*


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## JPUSINVNSCK

DRDO said:


> Do you have any better choice ????
> 
> Are you happy with Americans sanctions ?????


 
American sanction to us?aha,we are the partner of f35 project and that is a sanction lol.You guys are stupid not to choose typhoon.


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## tallboy123

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> American sanction to us?aha,we are the partner of f35 project and that is a sanction lol.You guys are stupid not to choose typhoon.


 
Better mark my words,Typhoon will not Win...
It will be Rafale


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## tallboy123

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> American sanction to us?aha,we are the partner of f35 project and that is a sanction lol.You guys are stupid not to choose typhoon.


 
BTW can u tell me wats superior in EF than Rafale???????


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## sudhir007




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## GORKHALI

*RAFALE AASM sead capability demonstrated *
French AASM Demonstrates Outstanding Versatility in Libyan Campaign

The Libyan campaign has emphasized unique advantages of the French AASM-250 autonomous guided weapons. Previously criticized in the media as an excessively expensive weapon, AASM proved its value in offering operational flexibility, in providing small fighting formations the effects achied by much larger strike forces. The weapon was developed to meet a wide range of counter-air and offensive air missions, including Counter Air Defense/(Suppression of Enemy Air Defense  SEAD), Air Interdiction and Deep Strikes, to Close Air Support (CAS) including precision attacks in urban environments, as well as anti-ship missions.




_AASM being reloaded on Rafale - 2011/04_






*Relying on the AASM extended stand-off range, Rafales were tasked to suppress and destroy SA-3 air defense sites during the initial phases of the conflict. During these strikes, utilizing the Rafales on-board sensor fusion capability, integrating data obtained from on-board sensors and external sources, delivered over Link-16, the fighters could generate strike coordinates based on real-time data, and feed it to the weapon in flight. The French fighters succeeded to hit the active sites with AASM, launching the weapons from long distance, outside the SA-3 launch envelope. Since each individual weapon is programmed with specific target coordinates, multiple weapons can be employed from the same aircraft, to attack different targets. Each weapon can be reprogrammed in flight, enabling it to engage several targets simultaneously (up to six in the case of the Rafale.)
*
A significant advantage of the AASM is the ability to retarget the weapon from the cockpit, just before launch. _A Rafale carrying six weapons, each programmed with six different targets prior to takeoff. In addition to hitting each of the targets, the same fighter can re-attack targets already engaged but not destroyed, ensuring mission success, avoiding the high risk and costs involved with repeat missions, following battle damage assessment. Overall, Sagem claims a mission success rate of over 90%, compared to 70%, achieved by unpowered (gliding) laser guided or geo-targeted weapons, which are also restricting mission planning in flight envelope, flight trajectory, impact angle and penetration._ 
When employed against air defense assets, the combination of the weapons stand-off range and re-attack capability means an air defense site would be taken out of operation for longer periods, delivering higher success rate in SEAD operations and precision attacks of high value targets. Another important capability, particularly in todays hybrid warfare, is the weapons flexibility in striking time critical targets. During the recent attacks in Libya, a Rafale pilot clearly demonstrated such method, when spotting a Libyan Soko G2 Galeb aircraft flying near Misrata. As the Libyan plane landed at the base, the Rafale pilot acquired its coordinates as a target of opportunity, fed the data to the weapon and launched the GPS/INS guided AASM against the target. As the weapon dropped, it homed in on the exact spot and destroyed the Libyan aircraft on the tarmac.


Operational with the French Air Force, and French Naval Aviation, AASM is produced made by Safran subsidiary Sagem DS. The weapon was first deployed in Afghanistan with the French Rafale in 2008. The baseline AASM kit comprises of the INS/GPS guidance system, designed for standard 250 kg (500 pounds) bombs. The AASM family will eventually include 125, 500 and 1,000 kg (250, 1000, and 2000 pounds) versions. Since the French forces have received only the initial deliveries of 3,500 weapons ordered, chances are that the used inventory could be replenished by extending current production runs. It is assumed that new weapons could be delivered at considerably lower costs than the original ones, as the manufacturer has stepped up the learning curve. *Nevertheless, the cost of a basic AASM is still expected to ship at around $300,000 apiece (200,000).
The weapon uses a booster/sustainer rocket engine accelerating it to the designated cruising speed and altitude, from where it is designed to continue through an autonomous operation, in day or night and in all weather conditions. It can be released at low altitude, and can also be fired up to 180 degrees off-axis in relation to the aircrafts flight path, (backwards) attacking targets from any direction, from standoff distance exceeding 50 km.* 

AASM-250 weapons are currently fitted with inertial/GPS guidance. The addition of semi-active laser seeker, and algorithms to track fixed or mobile targets during the terminal phase, will enhance the operational flexibility of the AASM family. *Two versions are currently available and qualified for firing by the Rafale multirole fighter  the inertial/GPS and soon to be fielded inertial/GPS/infrared. The laser terminal guidance version of the AASM is expected to enter volume production for the French air force and navy starting at the end of 2012.* 
In addition to the basic GPS/INS guidance, AASM will also offer optional terminal guidance kits. *These add-on features currently under development, will increase attack precision and enable engagement of fast moving targets. The infra-red seeker enables the weapon to hit small targets with distinctive signature, overcoming target location errors y undertaking a terminal correction just before impact. The semi-active laser seeker, along with associated moving target algorithms enable engagement of any surface target (stationary or moving) illuminated by a target designator, even targets travelling at high speed.*

*The AASM-125 was successfully tested in February 2009 on a Mirage 2000. The AASM-1000 is under development, as are new features such as airburst and data link. The AASM has also been selected to equip the Moroccan Mirage F-1s and are considered a likely choice for Air Forces considering the French Rafale (India, Brazil). Sagem is also addressing other platforms as well, including opportunities to arm Mirage 2000s in foreign service.* 


Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)

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## koushik

More info about the French AASM. http://www.sagem-ds.com/IMG/pdf/D1215E-AASM.pdf


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## KEETARP

satishkumarcsc said:


> Reply to p2prada in


 . Can't comprehend your point ???????


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## SpArK

*France hint on Pak
​*
New Delhi, May 7: *The French government is mulling downgrading its strategic partnership with Pakistan, officials of the European country hinted to foreign secretary Nirupama Rao during her visit to Paris.*

Rao was in Paris on May 5-6 for the annual India-France foreign office consultations. The Indian foreign secretary landed in Paris barely hours after Pakistan Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani concluded his not-so-happy three-day state visit to France.

New Delhi has for long been asking western countries to review their military assistance to Pakistan, mostly sought for the war against terror, but which the government feels has been directed at India.

*Now, public opinion in France has questioned the countrys non-civilian help to Islamabad after the discovery that Osama bin Laden had spent several years hiding in Pakistans Abbottabad, sources said. Paris is also conscious of India potentially being a more important partner than Pakistan in the years to come*.

*France wants to sell nuclear reactors and military hardware worth thousands of crores of rupees to India in the years to come, including French fighter jet Rafale, which along with Eurofighter Typhoon, is in the reckoning for the over Rs 50,000-crore defence deal.
*

Rao held discussions with senior French officials led by Pierre Sellal, the secretary-general of the ministry of foreign affairs of France.

A spokesperson for the ministry of external affairs said the two sides reviewed the entire range of bilateral relations including strategic co-operation in key areas, such as civil nuclear energy, defence, space, trade and investment, education, science and technology and culture.

There was also an exchange of views on the regional and international situation. The two sides also discussed the evolving situation in North Africa and the Middle East, in particular Libya and Syria, the spokesperson said.

Foreign officials said the two sides discussed ways to strengthen an India-France strategic partnership, *defined by the strong and future-oriented vision articulated during the visit of the President of France to India from December 4-7, 2010.*


The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | France hint on Pak

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## SpArK

*Loïc Piedevache, Country Head (India Operations), MBDA Group, Interview.​*





MBDA, a world leader in missiles and missiles system, desires to be a major player in the Indian defence market and is viewing India as the fifth pillar of its structure in addition to current partner countries  France, UK, Italy and Germany. Loïc Piedevache, Country Head (India Operations), MBDA Group, in conversation with SPs Editor-in-Chief Jayant Baranwal spoke about building a reliable, strategic and long-term partnership in India.


*SP Guide Publications (SPs):* MBDA was formed with the merger of key missile producers in France, Italy and Great Britain, and subsequent acquisition in Germany. Has this made you a world leader or was it a fait accompli?

*Loïc Piedevache (Loïc):* In the past few decades, there have been many mergers and reorganisations in the defence sector worldwide. The merger of several companies has resulted in bigger turnover and a best use of resources.

But a lot of hard work was required to effectively integrate the companies and ensure that their operating systems were coordinated properly. In order to create a suitable business model, resources had to be pooled in the most effective manner with the correct use of synergies.

MBDA has set a benchmark in terms of international integration within the defence sector and has become a global player.

*SPs:* Can you please tell us about the companys current profile? How do you position yourself in the global market today?

*Loïc:* MBDA is a global player having business in defence markets across the globe. We are moving towards a situation where over 50 per cent of our turnover will come from export activities as opposed to domestic sales (UK, France, Italy, and Germany).

*SPs*: Can you briefly outline the companys history? What are the factors that lead to the merger? In hindsight, what have been its positive points?

*Loïc:* The consolidation of Europe's missile companies began in 1996, when parts of Matra Defence and BAe Dynamics merged to form Matra BAe Dynamics (MBD). In 1999, the Aérospatiale-Matra Missiles was formed. In 1998, GEC-Marconi Radar and Defence Systems and Alenia Difesa combined their missile and radar activities to form Alenia Marconi Systems (AMS). In December 2001, MBD (including AMM) and the Missile and Missile Systems activities of AMS were merged and thus came up MBDA. In June 2005, LFK, a unit of EADS Defence and Security Systems merged with MBDA. The merger was necessary for the survival of the fragmented European industry.

*SPs:* What is the annual turnover of MBDA? Your website says you have as many as 45 products in service. What are your most sought-after products?

*Loïc:* The growth was rapid and by 2005 MBDA had doubled its turnover to 3 billion Euros. The companys current turnover (2009) stands at 2.6 billion Euros. It will be difficult to say what are our most sought after products. In terms of quantity (number not value)  large quantities of Eryx missiles and Exocet missiles have been sold. Mistral is in service with about 30 countries and will soon be in service on the Indian Dhruv/WSI. But MILAN manufactured under license in India by BDL has been sold in even higher quantities around the world.



> *SPs*: MBDA is a multinational company. What is the collective view of the nations involved (in MBDA) with regard to transfer of the latest and sensitive technologies to India? Are there any conflicts of interest?
> 
> *Loïc:* There are no conflicts of interest. MBDAs identity is represented by advanced technology and not nationality. Transfer of technology (ToT) is a key feature that MBDA offers. Our customers do not wait for a product enhancement to be commonly available. If the customer makes specific demand for a product, we make it available for them after discussions with them about the specific enhancements in line with national specific requirements.
> 
> 
> *Loïc: *MBDA has many aceswe are definitely a technology leader. We are the only company providing weapons to all three of the armed forces.
> 
> Weapons such as Storm Shadow/SCALP and Meteor are the world leaders in their categories and cannot be compared with any of other weapons. We combine the industrial and technological strengths of France, Italy, Germany and the UK together within one company.
> 
> Meteor, the beyond visual range air-to-air missile dominates the air battle giving air superiority against the threats, provides an unmatched no escape zone. It has been ordered by the UK Ministry of Defence and five other European nations  France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden. The Storm Shadow/SCALP is a conventionally armed stand-off air-to-ground long-range missile which can be deployed day and night and in adverse weather.



*SPs*: MBDA is one of the leading manufacturers of missiles in the world. In what ways are the 15 new products now being developed by MBDA different?

*Loïc:* The new developments include intelligent warheads, modular systems, and new propulsion technologies among others. They are all designed to meet new customer requirements regarding new terms of engagement, new platforms, threats, etc.

*SPs:* When something becomes seemingly obsolete, do you phase out the product or upgrade it? Or is it a combination of both?

*Loïc:* Due to budget constraints, some customers ask to extend the life of their existing missiles. In many cases we have provided life-extention service up to 5-10 years through our support team. As we respond to customer operational needs, it results in the long-term development of our product portfolio. Of course, we need to provide long-term support for in-service products and so we cannot just decide a product line as obsolete and ignore it.





MBDAs Meteor visual range air-to-air missile:
Dominates the world market



*SPs:* Can you please elaborate on the ground-based air defence missile, air dominance missile and surface to surface missile systems manufactured by MBDA?

*Loïc:* MBDA is a leader in providing a range of defence systems to create an effective layered defence systemfrom deployable short range systems such as Mistral and VL Mica to higher level systems such as Aster.

*Our air dominance range includes ASRAAM, Mica and Meteor to ensure the air-to-air battle. Dual Mode Brimstone and Storm Shadow/SCALP are available to deliver devastating precision in the air-to-ground attack missions.*

*In the battlefield warfare, MBDA is offering MILAN and Eryx missiles. Concerning the maritime threats, we can offer a wide choice of weapons: the latest generation of Exocet family (MM40 Block 3) and Otomat Mk2 Block IV for long range targets and Marte Mk2 for middle range targets.
*


*SPs:* You lay a lot of emphasis on customer support. How do you ensure that every sale is followed by quality customer support?

*Loïc:* Customer support is crucial for us. We ensure that the customer gets the maximum benefit from the equipment through life support through life performance. Our support service ranges from training, spares management, repair work, assistance with live firings, stockpile management, etc.

Our customer service is highly personalized and does not come off the shelf or out of a catalogue. It is discussed, developed, adapted, customised and implemented in line with each and every customers specific requirements. Our approach is work in-country with the customer.



> *SPs:* The Milan anti-tank missile has been in service with the Indian Army for a long time now. It is understood that a fresh contract was signed at the end of 2008 for an upgraded version? Please elaborate?
> 
> *Loïc:* Milan is a real success story between MBDA and Indian public sector undertaking Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) which started 30 years ago. Licenses for several versions of Milan missiles have been successfully implemented in India. The last version delivered to India is the Milan 2T which has a deadly tandem warhead and enhanced operational capabilities.
> 
> *SPs:* It has been reported that MBDA and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are jointly developing a new generation of low-level, quick-reaction air defence missile Maitri for the Indian Navy and the Air Force. It is understood that it has been offered to the Indian Army as well. Can you comment on the project?
> 
> *Loïc:* MDBA is considering India as a strategic long-term partner and is keen to shift from a usual buyer-seller approach to a deeper relation through a strong co-development programme involving key transfer of technologies. Developing short range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) is in sync with this strategic step.
> 
> The 3 Forces will be potential customers for SR SAM as there is a specific operational configuration to match their requirements.




*SPs*: Will you also offer core technologies like the design of the active seeker head and the missile engine apart from the other subsystems?

*Loïc:* Sensitive technologies will be transferred in the frame of SRSAM, but at this stage, we cannot disclose more information.



> *SPs:* What about the missiles systems for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and missile upgradation for Jaguar and Mirage 2000? Is MBDA contemplating on participating in the mid-life upgradation programmes of these combat aircraft of the IAF?
> 
> *Loïc:* Regarding the Mirage upgradation, MBDA has been requested to make an offer for the air-to-air weapon. We have proposed the MICA, the multi-mission air-to-air missile system which has outstanding maneuverability, high resistance to countermeasures, two interoperable advanced technology seekers and can be used in multi-target from long BVR interception to close-in dog fight.
> 
> Regarding the Jaguar, MBDA is currently responding to a request for proposal (RFP) for a close combat missile. We are offering Asraam Combat Missile for Jaguars, which has already successfully been fitted on Jaguars in other air forces and successfully tested in over-wing configuration.
> 
> *SPs:* Is MBDA a part of the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF?
> 
> *Loïc:* MBDA is providing missiles in weapon packages of the 3 European OEMs including Dassault Aviation (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter) and Saab (Gripen).






> *SPs*: Can you please tell us something about MBDAs multi-purpose combat vehicle project and its other variants? Will it be offered to India?
> 
> *Loïc:* The multi-purpose combat vehicle is a versatile and deadly accurate air transportable vehicle equipped with a motorised turret, with electro optical sensors. It has a small caliber gun and four ready-to-fire missiles that can be operated from an interior firing console.
> 
> It will be offered to India if there is a requirement.



*SPs*: Are you working on any other joint venture with BDL?

*Loïc:* MBDA does not have any JV with BDL. We are providing production licenses to BDL.



> *SPs:* Has MBDA established any joint venture or partnership with any Indian company in the private sector or do you propose to do so to meet the possible offset requirements?
> 
> *Loïc:* MBDA is looking for a strong, reliable, strategic, long-term and fruitful partnership with India. In this regard, we are having advanced discussions with a major private Indian group. This partnership will be a structured and comprehensive one and will meet all the procurement requirements. We are looking for a partner having complementary technologies and skills, a strategy consistent with MBDAs global strategy, in order to become / behave as a source or an equal partner, able to export from its home base, share MBDA views on collaboration with SMEs, DPSUs, and be recognised by the Indian authorities as a strategic industrial asset for the country.







> *SPs:* What are your long-term plans for India? How do you see the potential?
> 
> *Loïc:* Besides BDL, we have also been working with Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). We welcome the developments with regard to foreign direct investment (FDI) in India, which is at present 26 per cent. Emergence of private sectors would be fruitful to complement the public sector.
> 
> MBDA wants to be a major local player in India. MBDA is seeing India as the fifth pillar of its structure after the four domestic countries (UK, France, Italy, and Germany).



*SPs*: How do you look at the future?

*Loïc:* We work 20 years ahead of time!

- SP's Aviation

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## sudhir007

The RBE-2 AA picture released yesterday by Thales has raised a polemic all around the web. Indeed, the number of modules of the presented antenna is exacly 838, which is almost 20% less than the usually advertised "1000 modules" for this radar.
However it is not known if the picture shows the actual radar. It could be an earlier prototype or a dummy. One thing is sure, though: it is exactly the same antenna (same pattern) as the one shown in the previous pictures of the RBE-2 AA.

The graph on the left is illustrating the asymmetrical pattern of the modules and the number of modules on each of the 36 columns of the antenna.

Rafale News: Thales AESA RBE-2 modules pattern

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## SpArK

09 May 2011


RAF strikes target FROG-7 Rocket Launchers and SCUD canisters in Qadhafi home town

Royal Air Force aircraft destroyed a number of Qadhafi-regime rocket launchers and missiles on Friday morning as part of the NATO mission to protect Libyan civilians from attack.

*Two Tornado GR4 aircraft struck the weapons* at a location south of Sirte in a co-ordinated attack based on intelligence gathered earlier by other RAF aircraft.

Video taken from the Tornados Litening III targeting pod clearly shows a number of large secondary explosions after Paveway bombs struck the targets.

A previous mission had identified and gathered images of a possible site of interest. These images were analysed by specialists from the RAF Tactical Imagery Wing, who identified a large number of FROG-7 rocket launchers and several SCUD canisters.

Once the imagery experts had identified the targets they could be briefed to NATO pilots operating over Libya. An RAF flight on May 5 targeted both the FROG-7 launchers and the SCUD canisters using a number of Paveway IV bombs - a highly accurate weapon that uses both laser designation and GPS for guidance. The aircrew carried out a full assessment before the attacks to ensure that collateral damage was kept to a minimum.

After the strike the Tornadoes assessed that 20 FROG-7 launchers and significant number of SCUD canisters were either completely or partially destroyed, ensuring that these weapons cannot now be used to attack defenceless people.







Secretary of State for Defence, Dr Liam Fox, said:

"I have no doubt that this stockpile of weapons could have been used to threaten and kill innocent Libyans. We continue to degrade and destroy a range of military assets including tanks, armoured personnel carriers and rocket launchers that threaten the civilian population. This hugely successful mission is an example of how we are stepping up our strikes on Qadhafi's forces that continue to attack the Libyan people. The international coalition is resolute in its UN mandated task of protecting the civilian population."

The FROG-7 can fire rockets up to 70km and would pose a serious threat to civilians if used against an urban area. The SCUD tactical ballistic missile can strike targets up to 300km nd can carry a one-tonne warhead. Like the FROG-7, SCUD is not a precision weapon but poses a serious threat because of the size of the warhead. Both weapon types are mobile and could have been moved by regime forces to threaten civilians in any Libyan city.



*Pictures:
*
Still images taken from footage provided by a Tornado GR4 aircraft which destroyed a number of Qadhafi-regime rocket launchers and missiles.

Stock picture of a SCUD missile launcher, at RAF Spadeadam


More info here : Launcher Strike

*Its still the Tornadoes used for ground attack it seems.*

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## sancho

*Comparison of possible weapon configs:
*





*A2A:* 

EF - 4 x SR AAMs + 6 MR AAMs + 3 x 1000l fuel tanks
Rafale - 4 x SR AAMs + 4 MR AAMs + 3 x 1250l fuel tanks

*Advantage EF*, more missiles with pretty much the same range and endurance.








*LGB (PGM) strike *(each with 1 x LDP and up to 6 x AAMs):

250lb - EF not planed yet / Rafale 6 + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks
500lb - EF 4 + 2 x 1000l fuel tanks / Rafale 6 + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks
1000lb - EF 4 + 2 x 1000l fuel tanks / Rafale 2 + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks
2000lb - EF 1 + 2 x 1000l fuel tanks only with a 2nd fighter for laser guidance / Rafale 2 + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks

*Advantage Rafale*, more wet stations, bigger fuel tanks, dedicated LDP station, multi pylons, GPS and IR guided bombs, no external guidance needed, most of this operational now and if a customer wants even CFTs are available.








*CAS with A2G missiles* (each with up to 6 x AAMs): 

EF - 18 x Brimstone missiles + 1 x 1000l fuel tank
Rafale - 4 x laser guided rocket pods (each with 10 to 12 rockets) + 1 x 2000l fuel tank, or 12 x Brimstone missiles + 1 x 2000l fuel tank

*Advantage Rafale*, rocket pods already under development and there is even interest to integrate Brimstone, while the RAF seems to have no focus on it as long as the Tornados are still available and more capable.








*Cruise / standoff missile deep strike* (each with up to 6 x AAMs):

EF - 2 + 1 x 1000l fuel tank
Rafale 1 + 2 x 2000l fuel tanks, 2 + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks, or 3 + 2 x 2000l fuel tanks

*Advantage Rafale*, more variety of loadouts, much greater range and operational, while EF is limited to a single config only, with poor range and only planed around 2018.








*Maritime attack* (each with up to 6 x AAMs):

EF - 2 x anti ship missiles + 1 x 1000l fuel tanks 
Rafale - 1 x anti ship missile + 2 x 2000l fuel tanks, or 2 x anti ship missiles + 3 x 2000l fuel tanks 

*Advantage Rafale*, operational, more variety of loadouts, more range. EF only if we pay for integration!

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## Gandhi G in da house

From what i have been reading about both the planes , it seems that typhoon is better from A@A combat whereas Rafale is better for A2G .

The plane that wins will probably depend upon in which department IAF has more requirement , A2A or A2G. 

Does anyone have any idea which area IAF will be giving more weightage to ?

P.S- one more thanks for you sparky .


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## sancho

nick_indian said:


> From what i have been reading about both the planes , it seems that typhoon is better from A@A combat whereas Rafale is better for A2G .
> 
> The plane that wins will probably depend upon in which department IAF has more requirement , A2A or A2G.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea which area IAF will be giving more weightage to ?
> 
> P.S- one more thanks for you sparky .


 
The design of the EF is better for A2A, while the Rafale design is better for multi role. When you compare the performance in both roles other factors like weapons and techs play a role as well. If you rate both fighters in these roles (from 1 to 5, the lower the better), the EF might be a 1, Rafale a close 2, but in A2G Rafale is a 1 and EF with all capablities available or fixed for tranche 3, hardly a 4, because it's not even better than IAF Mirage 2000s.
So any air force that searches for an air superiority fighter, the EF is a great choice, but if you want a multi role fighter, especially if you have an air superiority fighter anyway, the Rafale is the obvious choice!

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## Archie

Well , As far as i know 
IAF is mainly interested in good ground attack capability
*Coz we are inducting some 270 Su30MKI and will induct 250 FGFA from 2020
Thats enough for air superiority *
MMRCA fighter is no longer expected to replace Mig21 which it was earliar intended to do , but Mig27 and Jaguars 
Mig27 will begin retiring between 2012-17 , while Jaguars are expected to retire between 2017-2024
126 mmrca aircrafts will replace some 96 Mig27 and 39 Jaguars by 2019

Any follow on order for mmrca which could be anywhere between 64 to 134 aircrafts will mainly depend on 2 things
Mirage 2000 upgrade being cancelled and any possible delay in fgfa 

While i dont expect expect Delay in FGFA , but there is still a possibility of mirage upgrade being cancelled , add to that 100 odd jaguars which will have to be replaced between 2020-24

So we should be looking at a definite follow on order for 64/74 mmrca 

I am pretty sure most of u would agree with the idea of our entire ground attack fleet comprising 139 Jaguars , 95 Mig27 and 51 mirage 2000H 
Thats 285 Aircrafts being replaced by a Single mmrca aircraft , most likely the RAFALE

How about it 200-260 RAFALES replacing 285 odd aircrafts
WE will save a fortune in training , mentainence and weapons cost


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## sudhir007

US stumped by Europe | idrw.org

The F16 is a 40-year-old single-engine aircraft which has been the mainstay of the Pakistani Air Force while the F18 did not fulfil the IAFs parameters.

The President of the USA, Mr Barack Obama, described Operation Geronimo as one of the greatest intelligence military operations in our nations history. We got Osama. But a month earlier, Mr Obama lost out at least so far on the other prize he had eyed: Indias multi-million-dollar order for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.

In a letter dated February 4, 2011 to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Mr Obama wrote: Let me reassure you that the US is a willing, capable and reliable defence partner to India. High-tech defence sales are increasingly a cornerstone of our strategic partnership. I want to underscore the strategic importance the United States attaches to the selection of a US proposal in Indias MMRCA competition. The US is offering India two of the most advanced multi-mission combat aircraft in the world  the Boeing FA/18IN and the Lockheed Martin F16IN. These aircraft have a demonstrated qualitative military advantage over any current fourth generation plus aircraft I view the MMRCA acquisition as a key step along this path. I respectfully ask that your Government will give its full consideration to the commercial, technical and strategic merit to the US proposal.

Two months later, the upfront rejection by India of both the Boeing F18 and Lockheed Martin F16 is a strategic error. Many defence experts expected the F18 to be sneaked into the shortlist along with the European Typhoon and the French Rafale to make the competition trans-Atlantic and politically more vibrant.

Many reasons are being given for keeping the American aircraft out, the most obvious being that they are not up to scratch. The F16 is a 40-year-old single-engine aircraft with a psychological hangover for the Indian Air Force  it has been the mainstay of the Pakistani Air Force for four decades. The F18 did not fulfil all of the IAFs technical parameters but the twin-engine aircraft could have been included in deference to the India-US strategic partnership and to keep the price negotiations on an even keel.

The Eurofighter is priced at around $125 million while the Rafale is $85 million. Less than $50 million, the F18 could have forced some markdown of the European contenders, inducing additionally cuts in lifecycle costs. The two aircraft selected have been asked to review their price bids. The final selection will be a political and strategic decision not necessarily based on the lowest bid and will be taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The IAF favours the Rafale not the least because the French are promising the moon. There is also a high level back channel Italian connection, they say. The Rafale will bestow several advantages  facilitate the Mirage 2000 upgrade programme; slip fit into the existing operational and logistics infrastructure of Mirage 2000. Snecma, which has built the Rafale engine, is also the company which provides engines for Mirage 2000, so that is a bonus. The Rafale though is not in service of any other air force except that of France.

Similarly of the four countries that have developed the Typhoon, three  Britain, Italy and Spain  have decided to go in for the fifth generation F35 being developed by the US. The British RAF is pounding Col Gaddafi with the Typhoon.

The $10 million MMRCA contract was expected to generate 27,000 jobs and boost the flagging defence industry in the US. But the history of India-US defence relationship has not been a happy one. Except for the purchase of the Packet aircraft by the IAF in 1962, no other aircraft has been acquired. The IAF has relied on British, French and mainly Soviet/Russian origin fleets.

The US has not stood by India and imposed sanctions on it in 1974, after the Pokhran I peaceful nuclear explosion, and again in 1998, after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Ironically, the nuclear tests revived defence ties but India was still wary that the US would turn off the tap as it had in the case of spares of Westland Sea-King helicopters, Navy ALH engines, etc. In 2004, when India signed the Hawk jet trainer contract with the UK, the clause that there will be no US parts was inserted on Indias insistence which led to time and cost overruns.

As WikiLeaks has revealed, India had the word strategic removed from the text of the Defence Framework Agreement of 2005 with the US, so high was the level of distrust. India has evaded signing many of the several obligatory agreements going by difficult acronyms like CISMOA, BECA, SOFA, EUMA and so on which accompany high-tech equipment and convert a partnership into a de facto alliance relationship. They entail interoperability, end-user inspections and verifications and periodic certification on legitimate use of equipment and supplies.

Till 2005, India had acquired military supplies from the US worth less than $500 million which included 12 weapon-locating radars  this one single deal taking 15 years to fructify after a tortuous scrutiny of Indias bona fides. Since then, the US has sold (or will sell) equipment worth $15 billion through the FMS route which ensures probity and transparency. The huge jump in US defence sales has turned the corner as far as reliability of American defence supplies is concerned.

Why have technical considerations alone trumped political and strategic imperatives of the MMRCA contract? The US Ambassador to India, Mr Timothy Roemer, who announced his resignation the day after the decision to reject the American bid, said, I am deeply disappointed but respect the selection process. Analysts believe awarding the contract to a European fighter is political balancing: The US has won $15 billion worth of contracts and Russia already hogs defence purchases and has been awarded the fifth generation fighter deal. So Europe is the obvious choice for spreading the largesse, given it has a first rate fourth generation aircraft.

The door seems to have been closed for American aircraft by not including the F18 in the short list which would have been politically correct and would also have recognised the White House missive. Maybe it was the presidential letter and the WikiLeaks cable indicating how craven Indian officials are with American diplomats. The Left has consistently accused the Manmohan Singh Government of having sold out to the US.

Ruling out US aircraft reflects strategic autonomy certainly, but the game could have been played more optimally by making it a three-horse race.


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## Ajaxpaul

RAFALE MICA MISSILE TEST

[video]http://youtu.be/GnuMXLMvkx8[/video]


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## sancho

Archie said:


> Any follow on order for mmrca which could be anywhere between 64 to 134 aircrafts will mainly depend on 2 things
> Mirage 2000 upgrade being cancelled and any possible delay in fgfa
> 
> While i dont expect expect Delay in FGFA , but there is still a possibility of mirage upgrade being cancelled , add to that 100 odd jaguars which will have to be replaced between 2020-24


 
The Mirage upgrade won't be cancelled, unless we make a deal to get fast produced Rafales instead, because the Rafale F3+ is the only fighter that is ready and capable in time to replace the Mirage. LCA MK1 will start production around the same time of the Mirage upgrade, but will be less capable, EF will not even be ready developed by the timeline of MMRCA and the A2G performance as I said is even less than the Mirage 2000s offer now.
That leaves IAF with no other options, either the upgrade of one of its best fighters, or replacing it right away with Rafale!

In regard of increased numbers, by the fact that the 2 most expensive fighter remained in the competition, I don't expect many follow orders, especially of the EF. By the time follow orders could be needed, LCA MK2 will be ready and mature enough, but by far more cost-effective. I only see follow orders of Rafale if IN and SFC wants it as well, or if IAF reduce the number of upgraded Jags and replace them with more MMRCAs. Expensive, but would increase IAF capabilities by far, be it in air defense, or strikes!


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> The Mirage upgrade won't be cancelled, unless we make a deal to get fast produced Rafales instead, because the Rafale F3+ is the only fighter that is ready and capable in time to replace the Mirage. LCA MK1 will start production around the same time of the Mirage upgrade, but will be less capable, EF will not even be ready developed by the timeline of MMRCA and the A2G performance as I said is even less than the Mirage 2000s offer now.
> That leaves IAF with no other options, either the upgrade of one of its best fighters, or replacing it right away with Rafale!
> 
> In regard of increased numbers, by the fact that the 2 most expensive fighter remained in the competition, I don't expect many follow orders, especially of the EF. By the time follow orders could be needed, LCA MK2 will be ready and mature enough, but by far more cost-effective. I only see follow orders of Rafale if IN and SFC wants it as well, or if IAF reduce the number of upgraded Jags and replace them with more MMRCAs. Expensive, but would increase IAF capabilities by far, be it in air defense, or strikes!


 
But if we cancel the Mirage & Jags. upgradation which mean we save around $3.2B. If 1 Rafale cost around $80 Million then we can easily buy around 40 plane. But because we already setup all the manufacturing local it will cost less. and I count 1 rafale with 2-3 jags. and jag & Mirage only short term beneficial but buy a Rafale will serve around 30-40 yr


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## Archie

Thats what i was saying
We should replace 285 odd Jaguars ,Mig27 and Mirages by 200 Rafales

Which should not cost us more than 15 billion USD
Thats coz our current 126 mmrca cost 11 billion , which include setting up manufacturing , training and mentainence infrastructure 
while additional RAFALES will not have such additional cost


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## Gandhi G in da house

sancho said:


> The design of the EF is better for A2A, while the Rafale design is better for multi role. When you compare the performance in both roles other factors like weapons and techs play a role as well. If you rate both fighters in these roles (from 1 to 5, the lower the better), the EF might be a 1, Rafale a close 2, but in A2G Rafale is a 1 and EF with all capablities available or fixed for tranche 3, hardly a 4, because it's not even better than IAF Mirage 2000s.
> So any air force that searches for an air superiority fighter, the EF is a great choice, but if you want a multi role fighter, especially if you have an air superiority fighter anyway, the Rafale is the obvious choice!


 
Thanks , plus the rafale is cheaper as well which means my decision to vote for rafale was correct .

Sancho do you have any concrete idea about the exact or rough prices of these birds ? There is very contradictory info on the net .


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## Abingdonboy

When you think about it, it does seem stupid to upgrade the Mirages in IAF service to -5/9 standard when they will still be inferior to its REPLACMENT the Rafele and spend $2.1 BILLION doing so. But then I also see what ACM Niak said- he could either UPG the Mirage or "throw away" the air frames that are good for anoth 20 years (his words). As I expect (at least I hope) that the entire order of MMRCA (even if the number increases to 200+) are completed by 2020-5 BUT UPG would only enter service by ~2014-5 so is it worth having UPG Mirage in IAF service for <10 years and have them replaced by last batch of MMRCA or not UPG at all and risk having a less capable a/c for same period? It is a very complex question made even more complex by the fact that the Rafale is the successor to the Mirage. I don't know what the IAF's thinking is on this and it would be interesting to know if the M2k UPG is still on?


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> But if we cancel the Mirage & Jags. upgradation which mean we save around $3.2B. If 1 Rafale cost around $80 Million then we can easily buy around 40 plane. But because we already setup all the manufacturing local it will cost less. and I count 1 rafale with 2-3 jags. and jag & Mirage only short term beneficial but buy a Rafale will serve around 30-40 yr


 
Maybe even more, because the Mirage upgrade is stated at around $2 billions and the upgrade of Jags migh involve up to 100 fighters. Of course the Rafale is more capable and therefor replacing Jags would make sense, but we also have to keep in mind that we phase out Mig 21s and 27 already, around 300 fighters I guess. If we now want to phase out Mirage and Jags at the same time, we need an alternative that can equal these numbers. Imo only possible if HAL can start LCA MK2 production with good numbers an no delays, as well with way more Rafales from France then only 1 squad.
I still say the Mirage upgrade will come fore sure, but possibly not all Jags will be upgraded.


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## sancho

nick_indian said:


> Thanks , plus the rafale is cheaper as well which means my decision to vote for rafale was correct .
> 
> Sancho do you have any concrete idea about the exact or rough prices of these birds ? There is very contradictory info on the net .


 
Not an exact idea, because the costs are dependent on several variables, but *imo* the fly away unit cost of Rafale is at least $20 millions lower than EFs, however IAF stated that the lifecycle costs will be important as well and I didn't found reliable comparison of Rafale and EF on that field so far.




Abingdonboy said:


> I don't know what the IAF's thinking is on this and it would be interesting to know if the M2k UPG is still on?



The point is that all alternatives are more costly, most of them can't be produced in time and they all will require new training. That means upgrading, very capable and reliable Mirage 2000s makes it easier for IAF to phase out less reliable and capable fighters first, as well as to induct totally new types like LCA, or MMRCA.


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## axisofevil

Don't forget how Air France treated stranded Indian Passengers compared to the other foreign passengers.......Don't forget..ever forget...


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> When you think about it, it does seem stupid to upgrade the Mirages in IAF service to -5/9 standard when they will still be inferior to its REPLACMENT the Rafele and spend $2.1 BILLION doing so. But then I also see what ACM Niak said- he could either UPG the Mirage or "throw away" the air frames that are good for anoth 20 years (his words). As I expect (at least I hope) that the entire order of MMRCA (even if the number increases to 200+) are completed by 2020-5 BUT UPG would only enter service by ~2014-5 so is it worth having UPG Mirage in IAF service for <10 years and have them replaced by last batch of MMRCA or not UPG at all and risk having a less capable a/c for same period? It is a very complex question made even more complex by the fact that the Rafale is the successor to the Mirage. I don't know what the IAF's thinking is on this and it would be interesting to know if the M2k UPG is still on?


 
Well i think the 2.1 bill price tag includes not supplying pakistan with avionics for the jf17. but jokes apart i think India needs to look into this upgrade and get this price down and also if we can get the UAE miarges through Dassault, Indian sqdn strength is dropping , and we need reinforcements right now. Mirages should be ubpgraded and if we have any option we should get othe mirage2005-9 in the market too for the strategic nuclear command.


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## luckyyy

axisofevil said:


> Don't forget how Air France treated stranded Indian Passengers compared to the other foreign passengers.......Don't forget..ever forget...


 
tht incident was just another example of the "soft target" of the indian state..


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## MilSpec

Which looks sexier EFT or Rafale..... All who Say Rafale raise your thumb


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## luckyyy

With the French and the British taking the main lead, one of the main issues was that they could soon run out of bombs. An article in The Washington Time (NATO runs short on some munitions in Libya) affirmed: *"Less than a month into the Libyan conflict, NATO is running short of precision bombs, highlighting the limitations of Britain, France and other European countries in sustaining even a relatively small military action over an extended period of time." *
*This demonstrates the limits of the ability by European nations to conduct a sky-war. *The problem was summed up by the same newspaper: "Although the United States has significant stockpiles, its munitions do not fit on the British and French-made planes that have flown the bulk of the missions." 

http://www.sify.com/news/if-france-can-intervene-in-libya-why-not-in-china-news-columns-lflvtBaigfi.html


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## jha

sandy_3126 said:


> Which looks sexier EFT or Rafale..... All who Say Rafale raise your thumb


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## jha

sudhir007 said:


> But if we cancel the Mirage & Jags. upgradation which mean we save around $3.2B. If 1 Rafale cost around $80 Million then we can easily buy around 40 plane. But because we already setup all the manufacturing local it will cost less. and I count 1 rafale with 2-3 jags. and jag & Mirage only short term beneficial but buy a Rafale will serve around 30-40 yr


 
We can not cancel this Mirage Upgrade...Mirage is for additional purpose ..


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## mastaan

jha said:


> We can not cancel this Mirage Upgrade...Mirage is for additional purpose ..


 
I'd say we should not... It serves 2 purposes... It is an interim stop-gap arrangement and then, it is a good recon plane as well.. Correct me if I am wrong ... and, if the cost of a stop gap is a couple of billion dollars... So, be it... I don't think we should look at costs when talking about threats to the nation or our defence mechanisms...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## monitor

Why India chose to disappoint the US
By Trefor Moss 

India's procurement of 126 multi-role combat aircraft has been one of the most eagerly anticipated defense deals in years, and not just because of its US$11 billion value. 

The selection was always going to be interpreted as an expression of New Delhi's evolving strategic outlook, and to some in Washington, which has built an increasingly close alliance with India driven by a mutual wariness of China, a win for either Boeing or Lockheed Martin, the two US contractors competing for the contract, seemed assured. 

But the Americans were wrong to think that friendship alone would unlock the door to India's defense dollars. At the end of April, the Indian government announced that neither US firm had even made


it onto the final short list, with Dassault of France and the European EADS consortium winning through at their expense. 

Having made plain that the US was "deeply disappointed" by the outcome, the US ambassador to India promptly resigned, citing personal reasons that seemed barely to mask his frustration that American lobbying had failed in spite of President Barack Obama's personal appearance in New Delhi last November. 

Lockheed Martin's F-16 was perhaps always an outsider to fulfill India's requirement: Pakistan already operates the aircraft, and this counted against it right from the start. But the Americans thought, not unreasonably, that Boeing's versatile F/A-18 Super Hornet, backed up by industrial offsets from General Electric as well as Boeing itself, was a strong claimant. 

Unfortunately, the Indian Air Force's technical evaluators didn't see it that way. They felt that the newer French and European fighters performed better in India's often challenging operating environments. The Europeans also went further on technology transfer, while the US's end user agreements struck India as needlessly prohibitive. 

"The Air Force was focusing on getting an aircraft that would be superior, and the American aircraft on offer just didn't cut it," says Rahul Roy-Chaudhury, the senior fellow for South Asia at the International Institute of Strategic Studies. "There was surprise in India at the extent of the US disappointment ... The Indian mindset was that this deal wasn't about cementing relationships, it was about getting the best deal. The Indian view is that the Americans should have offered better aircraft." 

Both sides are left with the sense that the other might have attached more value to their alliance in order to make the fighter deal happen. For the US, that the Indians were unduly blase in ejecting both US aircraft from the competition; from the Indian perspective, the Americans should have dug deeper and demonstrated their commitment to the Indian relationship by putting together a much stronger package. 

"I hope [the Americans] learn from this," says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, vice president at the Teal Group. While maintaining that the Super Hornet was as strong technically as the other competitors, Aboulafia suggests that the Americans' complacency lost them the deal. "If the US had really reformed its processes and said to the Indians, 'You're our partners, you're our equals,' then the F-18 would have had a very strong chance. That's the approach the Europeans took - they came and said, 'We need you'. I hope this is a rude awakening for them." 

Aboulafia points out that the US also failed to overcome the "unfortunate legacy" of its refusal to export critical aircraft components to India during the 1999 Kargil conflict with Pakistan. India needed cast-iron guarantees that nothing like this would ever happen again, and these were not forthcoming. 

Much has been read into India's refusal to do the US any special favors in this case, with some commentators applauding what they see as a return to India's traditional non-aligned roots and a rejection of a US-India strategic bloc. But by opting for a European aircraft, India is not seeking to avoid aligning itself with the US. India clearly is aligning itself with the US, but as a partner rather than a client; it also sees the US as one of several key strategic partners, rather than the only ally that counts. 

India's strategy, above all, is to spread the risk. It has already signed significant contracts with the US for military surveillance and transport aircraft, as well as civil nuclear development. Russia, once India's principal arms supplier, also missed out of the multi-role fighter deal, but is jointly developing a fifth-generation fighter with India. 

France recently secured a $20 billion contract to build civil nuclear reactors in India - an agreement which may count against Dassault in the final round of the fighter contest if New Delhi truly is determined to spread its largesse. Partnership with France is already secured, whereas the selection of EADS' Eurofighter would give four more countries - Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom - a vested interest in the modernization of India's military-industrial base. 

Political considerations will now dictate which of the two finalists secures the contract, and also when a deal is announced. The government's corruption woes are such that it would be far too sensitive to announce a major contact award in the next few months, perhaps pushing back a final decision until 2012. 

The stakes for EADS and Dassault could hardly be greater. A Eurofighter win could potentially propel the aircraft to further success in other Asian markets which have shown an interest in acquiring it - such as Japan, Indonesia and Malaysia - while the fortunes of Dassault's Rafale, which has only Brazil as a significant export customer so far, would be similarly transformed. 
For the US, there is everything reason to be optimistic about the defense relationship with India, despite this setback. The Indian Air Force has already ordered six C-130J transport aircraft from Lockheed Martin, and eight P-8 multi-mission aircraft and 10 C-17 transport planes from Boeing; it will probably come back for more of all three types within the next few years. 

But the biggest opportunity could be in encouraging India to buy Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II, a fifth-generation fighter that would be a capability leap beyond any of the aircraft under consideration this time around. Such a deal would be fraught with difficulties - not least how to involve Indian industry (as offset rules demand) in the construction of an aircraft that is far beyond its current technical capability - but the US has perhaps a decade to figure out how to get around them. India will certainly require a fifth-generation fighter as China makes progress towards acquiring one, and its prospects of successfully developing a fifth-generation fighter with Russia are mixed at best. The US certainly has a big incentive to learn the lessons of its recent setback. 

After absorbing the initial disappointment, the US will put India's rebuff behind it and refocus on making the strategic relationship with India a cornerstone of its foreign policy in the Asian region. In this, it will find a willing partner, though India's assertiveness in rejecting the US aircraft will do it no harm as it strives to make that partnership an equal one. 

Trefor Moss is a freelance journalist who covers Asian politics, in particular defense, security and economic issues. He is a former Asia-Pacific editor for Defense Weekly.

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## jha



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## sancho

*Some more basic infos between the differences of Rafale and EF, from a post I made on ID*


To understand the difference between both fighters, we have to understand the difference in design and more importantly the development goals!

Here are some excerpts of an flight global interview with Dassault Aviation's executive vice-president, Bruno Revellin-Falcoz:




> In 1980/1 France joined the UK and Germany, and later Italy and Spain, in the European Combat Aircraft (ECA)initiative. An integrated international team was formed, but there was little common ground, although in 1983 the five nations' air forces managed to agree on an outline European Staff Target for a future fighter.
> 
> Dassault Aviation's executive vice-president for engineering, research and cooperation, Bruno Revellin-Falcoz, remembers *how it became clear that France's requirement was not the same as that of the other four partners. "There were major differences in the aims and targets,*" he says. The problem centred on *the partners' preference for an aircraft having long-range interception* as its primary mission to replace their Panavia Tornado ADVs, McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantoms, and Lockheed F-104 Starfighters. This drove the weight up to around 10t, heavier than the smaller, 9t machine *proposed by Dassault Aviation, which was to have multirole air-to-air and air-to-ground capability*. "We were also the only country that planned a naval version as well," adds Revellin-Falcoz...
> 
> ...The respective designs eventually chosen for the Rafale and Eurofighter reveal clearly their fundamental differences, even though both are based around delta wing/canards.
> 
> Dassault, with its long experience in delta wing/canard design, had already demonstrated close-coupling of the canard and wing - a solution rejected by the Eurofighter team. "We believed very strongly that the all-moving canard should be close-coupled aerodynamically to the wing," says Revellin-Falcoz. "*First, it meant the canard could be located further rearwards, which, particularly in the two-seat version, would give the rear pilot better visibility for the air-to-ground mission. Second, we wanted to take advantage of the flow induction effect to the delta wing. This gave us more efficiency and better control at low speeds and high angle of attack, which was particularly important for carrier operations*."
> 
> The design of the intakes was another area where the two sides disagreed. "In our book, a twin-engined configuration means it must be a true twin. *In other words, we never want a single engine failure affecting the other engine,*" says Revellin-Falcoz.
> 
> *This meant that separate intakes were needed, to preserve entry conditions for each powerplant under all conditions. "We think it is risky to have a chin intake, even though today's engines are so reliable," he adds. The Rafale intakes are 'semi-submerged', which are also "better for reducing the frontal signature."
> 
> The landing gear, because of the Rafale's carrier role, would also be different*. Catapult-assisted take-offs required a particularly strong mounting, which meant the nosegear had to be attached directly to the fuselage to transmit the loads directly through to the main aircraft structure. "That would not have worked well on a chin intake - the resulting structure would have been extremely complicated," says Revellin-Falcoz...



Wings ofchange-09/06/1999-Flight International


As you can see, Dassault had more than good reasons to choose different solutions, especially for the location of the canards and the air intakes. This will also be evident when you keep in mind that the EF is generally used as a single seat fighter only, while the twin seat is basically for training. The Rafale on the other hand was planed from the start with a twin seat service version for example in the nuclear strike role!

The following pic shows a single seat EF and a twin seat Rafale and now compare the advantage of visibility for the WSO, because the canards are placed differently:







Also keep in mind the advantage at carrier landings, without canards in the field of view of the pilot and Dassault is not the only company that thought placing the canards so far in the front would not be a good idea:


*Su 30 MKI*







*Gripen*







*J10*








Both fighters has not only a comparable delta canard design, but also a focus on using a high ammount of composite materials like you can see here:







In fact, 75% of Rafales surface structure and 30% of its mass are made of composites, for EF it is 70% and 40%:

Eurofighter Typhoon

http://www.uimm3340.com/iso_album/metal_composite_1.pdf



Besides, the high ammount of composites and RAM materials, ducted air intakes that both has, Rafale also has a sawtooth design feature all over the airframe and even in the air intakes. These sawtooth are made of RAM materials and meant to scatter and absorb radar waves:






http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9612.jpg

http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9611.jpg



All stealth fighters begining with the F117 used similar sawtooth design features with the same aim of scattering the radar waves and to reduce the RCS as well:







Rafale and EF have comparable delta canard designs, while the location of the canard only tells us something about the design aim. The one for more visibility for twin seater, or during A2G roles and better low speed handling, the other possibly for better high speed maneuverability and clearly aimed on single seat A2A fighters.
Both uses high ammounts of composite and RAM materials, also use similar RCS reduction features. Which makes clear that both should have very low RCS, but I don't want to speculate which one is lower.

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## Bagee

sancho said:


> *Some more basic infos between the differences of Rafale and EF, from a post I made on ID*
> 
> 
> To understand the difference between both fighters, we have to understand the difference in design and more importantly the development goals!
> 
> Here are some excerpts of an flight global interview with Dassault Aviation's executive vice-president, Bruno Revellin-Falcoz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wings ofchange-09/06/1999-Flight International
> 
> 
> As you can see, Dassault had more than good reasons to choose different solutions, especially for the location of the canards and the air intakes. This will also be evident when you keep in mind that the EF is generally used as a single seat fighter only, while the twin seat is basically for training. The Rafale on the other hand was planed from the start with a twin seat service version for example in the nuclear strike role!
> 
> The following pic shows a single seat EF and a twin seat Rafale and now compare the advantage of visibility for the WSO, because the canards are placed differently:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also keep in mind the advantage at carrier landings, without canards in the field of view of the pilot and Dassault is not the only company that thought placing the canards so far in the front would not be a good idea:
> 
> 
> *Su 30 MKI*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gripen*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *J10*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both fighters has not only a comparable delta canard design, but also a focus on using a high ammount of composite materials like you can see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, 75% of Rafales surface structure and 30% of its mass are made of composites, for EF it is 70% and 40%:
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> http://www.uimm3340.com/iso_album/metal_composite_1.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the high ammount of composites and RAM materials, ducted air intakes that both has, Rafale also has a sawtooth design feature all over the airframe and even in the air intakes. These sawtooth are made of RAM materials and meant to scatter and absorb radar waves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9612.jpg
> 
> http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9611.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> All stealth fighters begining with the F117 used similar sawtooth design features with the same aim of scattering the radar waves and to reduce the RCS as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale and EF have comparable delta canard designs, while the location of the canard only tells us something about the design aim. The one for more visibility for twin seater, or during A2G roles and better low speed handling, the other possibly for better high speed maneuverability and clearly aimed on single seat A2A fighters.
> Both uses high ammounts of composite and RAM materials, also use similar RCS reduction features. Which makes clear that both should have very low RCS, but I don't want to speculate which one is lower.



Aircraft	Estimated radar cross section (RCS)
Sukhoi Su-30MKI	20 square metres[165]
Dassault Rafale	2 square metres[166]
Eurofighter Typhoon	1 square metre[155]
Sukhoi Su-35BM	1 square metre[167]
Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk	0.025 square metres[166]
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor	0.0001 square metres[168]


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## sancho

Bagee said:


> Aircraft	Estimated radar cross section (RCS)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI	20 square metres[165]
> Dassault Rafale	2 square metres[166]
> Eurofighter Typhoon	1 square metre[155]
> Sukhoi Su-35BM	1 square metre[167]
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk	0.025 square metres[166]
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor	0.0001 square metres[168]


 
That's why i don't wanted to speculate.


----------



## Bagee

The Eurofighter project has been subject to several operational evaluations. These have been carried out, independently from the Eurofighter consortium, primarily by Britain's DERA, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (now split into QinetiQ and DSTL). Unlike many previous theoretical operational capability studies, the Eurofighter analysis utilised a true simulation approach. This was achieved through a number of networked battle simulation computers, termed JOUST, each of which can be flown by human pilots.

BVR Combat Rating
91%
82%
50%
43%
25%
21%
21%
This system was used to comprehensively evaluate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) performance of the Eurofighter and other aircraft against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents). The studies investigated all aspect best performances from the major systems on each aircraft; avionics, structure (including RCS data), engine performance (including fuel usage), defences and man-machine interfaces. In these tests the French Rafale utilised the Matra-BAe MICA air to air missile (which is the primary AA weapon of the French airforce) while the other aircraft used the Raytheon-Hughes AMRAAM.

These simulations concluded that Eurofighter has a win rating of 82% (100% equals always win, 0% equals always lose, 50% equals parity) against the target aircraft. A more typical way to present this data is as a combat exchange ratio, for the Typhoon this equals 4.5:1. In other words statistically one Eurofighter would be lost for every 4.5 Su-35 fighters shot down. This compares extremely favourably to the other aircraft (see also the BVR Combat Rating table); F-16C Falcon (0.3:1), F-15C Eagle (0.8:1), F-18C Hornet (0.3:1), F-18+ (0.4:1, NB this is not the current F-18E/F which is apparently a downgraded version of the F-18+ used in the studies) and Dassault Rafale (1:1). Only the LM/Boeing F-22 Raptor bettered the Eurofighter's performance with a combat exchange ratio of 10.1:1.

In addition to these overall combat performance results a number of individual comparisons have been made available. Of enormous importance for BVR combat is acceleration at medium altitudes and here the Eurofighter's acceleration at Mach 0.9 and 22,000ft equals that of the F-22. At supersonic velocities (Mach 1.6 and 36,000ft) the sustained turn rate of the Eurofighter betters all but the F-22, while its instantaneous turn rate is superior to the F-22. At low altitudes, Eurofighter can accelerate from 200kts to Mach 1.0 in under 30 seconds. In a similar vain to its supersonic performance, the sustained and instantaneous subsonic turn rates of the Eurofighter are bettered only by the F-22. Only the Rafale comes close to the matching the Eurofighter's capabilities in these comparisons.

An important point to keep in mind when examining this data is that full details on the simulations have not been released. Without this information it is not possible to determine whether Eurofighter optimal profiles were examined at the expense of more varied combat missions. However these studies do give some indication as to the potential of the Typhoon.


----------



## Bagee

Bagee said:


> The Eurofighter project has been subject to several operational evaluations. These have been carried out, independently from the Eurofighter consortium, primarily by Britain's DERA, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (now split into QinetiQ and DSTL). Unlike many previous theoretical operational capability studies, the Eurofighter analysis utilised a true simulation approach. This was achieved through a number of networked battle simulation computers, termed JOUST, each of which can be flown by human pilots.
> 
> BVR Combat Rating
> 91%
> 82%
> 50%
> 43%
> 25%
> 21%
> 21%
> This system was used to comprehensively evaluate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) performance of the Eurofighter and other aircraft against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents). The studies investigated all aspect best performances from the major systems on each aircraft; avionics, structure (including RCS data), engine performance (including fuel usage), defences and man-machine interfaces. In these tests the French Rafale utilised the Matra-BAe MICA air to air missile (which is the primary AA weapon of the French airforce) while the other aircraft used the Raytheon-Hughes AMRAAM.
> 
> These simulations concluded that Eurofighter has a win rating of 82% (100% equals always win, 0% equals always lose, 50% equals parity) against the target aircraft. A more typical way to present this data is as a combat exchange ratio, for the Typhoon this equals 4.5:1. In other words statistically one Eurofighter would be lost for every 4.5 Su-35 fighters shot down. This compares extremely favourably to the other aircraft (see also the BVR Combat Rating table); F-16C Falcon (0.3:1), F-15C Eagle (0.8:1), F-18C Hornet (0.3:1), F-18+ (0.4:1, NB this is not the current F-18E/F which is apparently a downgraded version of the F-18+ used in the studies) and Dassault Rafale (1:1). Only the LM/Boeing F-22 Raptor bettered the Eurofighter's performance with a combat exchange ratio of 10.1:1.
> 
> In addition to these overall combat performance results a number of individual comparisons have been made available. Of enormous importance for BVR combat is acceleration at medium altitudes and here the Eurofighter's acceleration at Mach 0.9 and 22,000ft equals that of the F-22. At supersonic velocities (Mach 1.6 and 36,000ft) the sustained turn rate of the Eurofighter betters all but the F-22, while its instantaneous turn rate is superior to the F-22. At low altitudes, Eurofighter can accelerate from 200kts to Mach 1.0 in under 30 seconds. In a similar vain to its supersonic performance, the sustained and instantaneous subsonic turn rates of the Eurofighter are bettered only by the F-22. Only the Rafale comes close to the matching the Eurofighter's capabilities in these comparisons.
> 
> An important point to keep in mind when examining this data is that full details on the simulations have not been released. Without this information it is not possible to determine whether Eurofighter optimal profiles were examined at the expense of more varied combat missions. However these studies do give some indication as to the potential of the Typhoon.


 
just imagine this bvr range if there is a j 10 or j11b in the vicinity
first percentage is for f22 2)eurofighter 3) rafale 4) f 18 
why not typhoon for ground operation first u need to be good in air and typhoon is best after f22 in that


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## localoca

sancho said:


> That's why i don't wanted to speculate.


 
Because you know Sh!t about LO aircrafts, you dare to compare F-117 with Rafale? two words: Vertical Stabilizer


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## lepziboy

Bagee said:


> Aircraft	Estimated radar cross section (RCS)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI	20 square metres[165]
> Dassault Rafale	2 square metres[166]
> Eurofighter Typhoon	1 square metre[155]
> Sukhoi Su-35BM	1 square metre[167]
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk	0.025 square metres[166]
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor	0.0001 square metres[168]



Sukhoi Su-mki rcs is really big I really hate that


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## axisofevil

Bagee said:


> Aircraft	Estimated radar cross section (RCS)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI	20 square metres[165]
> Dassault Rafale	2 square metres[166]
> Eurofighter Typhoon	1 square metre[155]
> Sukhoi Su-35BM	1 square metre[167]
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk	0.025 square metres[166]
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor	0.0001 square metres[168]




Great point....That's what I was going to bring up and you clearly answered it for us. Thanks. We also need to remember offensive and defensive weapons capabilities have increased and changed tremendously since the Rafaele's induction.


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## tanlixiang28776

Bagee said:


> Aircraft	Estimated radar cross section (RCS)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI	20 square metres[165]
> Dassault Rafale	2 square metres[166]
> Eurofighter Typhoon	1 square metre[155]
> Sukhoi Su-35BM	1 square metre[167]
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk	0.025 square metres[166]
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor	0.0001 square metres[168]


 
For the first 4 fighters in this list it refers to a frontal RCS without any weapons, pods, or drop tanks.

In other words you would have to fly unarmed to achieve that kind of RCS. With weapons the RCS dramatically increases.


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## lepziboy

tanlixiang28776 said:


> For the first 4 fighters in this list it refers to a frontal RCS without any weapons, pods, or drop tanks.
> 
> In other words you would have to fly unarmed to achieve that kind of RCS. With weapons the RCS dramatically increases.



I thought this was with weapons


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## Just Yash

Nup...... It's without Weapons.
Any by the way all this figures are wrong. No country will give away their main Fighter's RCS figures.


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## sudhir007

Russia Experts Says Russia Could Sell Mig-35 Fighter Jets To Pakistan ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

According to the Russian International Information Telegraph Agency refuses regarding India to purchase the Mig - 35 fighter plane incidents, Russia strategy and technical analysis center assistant director Constantine&#9633;Markey extended the branch saying.

Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy.

He believed that the Pakistani Air force possibly while purchases Chinese and American fighter plane's also purchases Mig - 35.


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## Abingdonboy

sudhir007 said:


> Russia Experts Says Russia Could Sell Mig-35 Fighter Jets To Pakistan ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> According to the Russian International Information Telegraph Agency refuses regarding India to purchase the Mig - 35 fighter plane incidents, Russia strategy and technical analysis center assistant director Constantine&#9633;Markey extended the branch saying.
> 
> Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy.
> 
> He believed that the Pakistani Air force possibly while purchases Chinese and American fighter plane's also purchases Mig - 35.




There's sooo much wring with this article/news. 

Let me start at the top- PAF has expressed NOOOO interest in the Mig-35 let alone their dire finical issues they already are planning to induct a number of platforms from China that, whilst not as capable as the Mig-35, fit into the same class so I doubt PAF would want the hassle of the logistics let alone their F-16s that are in the same category. 

Secondly, the most important factor is the Russians aren't foolish enough to do such a thing over ONE project (given it is a pretty large one) as India already has committed $30 BILLION for PAK FA/FGFA let alone the BILLIONS for MiG 29Ks for IN, UPG of IAF MiG 29, JV for MTA and likely order for 5+ A-50 for IAF Phalcon etc etc. I truly don't believe the Russians are that stupid, immature or emotional. 

I haven't seen this news ANYWHERE else and even if I had it could just be ONE upset Russian (or not even Russian). 

Russia won't bite the hand that feeds it.


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## Gandhi G in da house

sudhir007 said:


> Russia Experts Says Russia Could Sell Mig-35 Fighter Jets To Pakistan ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> According to the Russian International Information Telegraph Agency refuses regarding India to purchase the Mig - 35 fighter plane incidents, Russia strategy and technical analysis center assistant director Constantine&#9633;Markey extended the branch saying.
> 
> Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy.
> 
> He believed that the Pakistani Air force possibly while purchases Chinese and American fighter plane's also purchases Mig - 35.


 
Not happening


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## sancho

lepziboy said:


> Sukhoi Su-mki rcs is really big I really hate that


 
Don't count too much on these figures (if I'm not wrong from wiki and most of them without reliable references)! The 20m² are generally speculated for Flanker class fighters, which means older Su 27, or latest Su 30/34/35, but the latter has lower RCS than the earlier, because they were treated with RAM materials, the question is to what extend was it done on the MKI?

Also simple logic can tell us that the figures for Su 35, Rafale and EF are wrong! 
The Su 35 is just a modernised version of the Su 27 single seat Flanker and the difference in terms of RCS comes mainly through integration of "some" composites (because you can't add much composites later, like you can do it in the initial design stage), as well as RAM materials. But it still has the 2 huge vertical twin tail fins, it has no ducted air intakes, or radar blockers, the design itself was never intended to be a low RCS design...
...and even more obvious, the size difference alone makes it more visible for radar than EF, or Rafale:





















Another example, the Mig 29K/35 are said to have a RCS 3 to 4 times lower than the earlier Mig 29s and similar things were said about the differences of F16s, or F18s to their newer versions. Now "IF" the older Su27 really had a RCS of 20m², what should bring the RCS of the Su35 down to 1m² (which actually is even less than what is speculated for the Mig 29K/35)?
More than enough reasons that makes clear that these figures are nothing more than speculations!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha

People here are again reading too much into this RCS stuff without having a clear picture of this...
Unless the aircraft is VLO , RCS wont matter..


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## sancho

Some nice pics of the French weapons on Rafale, including the 30mm gun (EF 27mm) that I found at the MP forum:

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha

*Jeetega bhai Jeetega..Eurofighter Jeetega...*


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## Paan Singh

jha said:


> *Jeetega bhai Jeetega..Eurofighter Jeetega...*


 
EF ka muh kala


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## Ammyy

Prism said:


> EF ka muh kala


 
Kale hai to kya hua dil bale hai 


Jitega bhai jetega EF jitega


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## jha

Prism said:


> EF ka muh kala


 
Kaale hain to kya hua Dilwale hain...


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## jha

In spite of Propaganda campaign launched by Rafale commies like Sancho and Spark, EF is doing very good in the poll here...

Jeetega bhai Jeetega , Eurofighter Jeetega...


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## Paan Singh

DRDO said:


> Kale hai to kya hua dil bale hai
> 
> 
> Jitega bhai jetega EF jitega


 
dil nu maar goli....my raffy....


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## tallboy123

Look at the size of Su-30.. Su-30 Rcs would be 60% more than Rafale






Rafale is small compared to Su-30 and will have very less RCS when compared to SU-30
But Su-30 can carry more weapon load and highy manevourable


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## Bagee

DRDO said:


> Kale hai to kya hua dil bale hai
> 
> 
> Jitega bhai jetega EF jitega


 
yes that is the decision then it will be the best one...
the *bvr* range of eurofighter is unmatched and is comparable to f 22
rafale is quite far in this case and more over why the hell to buy an underpowered jet . i am not getting it
and ground operations can only be done when air is secured so after that even a jaguar can do that with a typhoon


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## sancho

jha said:


> In spite of Propaganda campaign launched by Rafale commies like Sancho and Spark, EF is doing very good in the poll here...
> 
> Jeetega bhai Jeetega , Eurofighter Jeetega...


 
 Providing facts and infos are not propaganda and I bet most of the EF votes are based on the general assumption, that it is the best non 5th generation fighter, without checking the facts, or more important how it would suit Indian forces!
If you do these 2 things, you hardly can vote for anything else then the Rafale.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bagee

tallboy123 said:


> Look at the size of Su-30.. Su-30 Rcs would be 60% more than Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale is small compared to Su-30 and will have very less RCS when compared to SU-30
> But Su-30 can carry more weapon load and highy manevourable


but why the rcs of rafale is double the rcs of eurofighter even if it is one of the best 4++ fighters in the world 
and uses more composites than eurofighter as propagated in this thread and i can tell u one thing the canards of eurofighter are far more effective then that of the rafalemay not be the best to look on but effective is the word dude


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## Bagee

sancho said:


> Providing facts and infos are not propaganda and I bet most of the EF votes are based on the general assumption, that it is the best non 5th generation fighter, without checking the facts, or more important how it would suit Indian forces!
> If you do these 2 things, you hardly can vote for anything else then the Rafale.


 apart from ground operation can u tell me any thing else special about rafale


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## jha

sancho said:


> Providing facts and infos are not propaganda and I bet most of the EF votes are based on the general assumption, that it is the best non 5th generation fighter, without checking the facts, or more important how it would suit Indian forces!
> *If you do these 2 things, you hardly can vote for Rafale.*



Welcome to EF Fans league...

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## Tin Man

Would you rather deal with a single country for fighter support or a whole collection of them ? Each with their own personal agendas as well. France is a trusted indian ally and a reliable defence partner. This should be taken into consideration.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Bagee said:


> but why the rcs of rafale is double the rcs of eurofighter even if it is one of the best 4++ fighters in the world
> and uses more composites than eurofighter as propagated in this thread and i can tell u one thing the canards of eurofighter are far more effective then that of the rafalemay not be the best to look on but effective is the word dude


 
According to wiki it is twice as big, according to several other sources it is very low and that's why the Rafale is hard to detect. Regarding the canards, as I showed it depends on what the aim was! More slow speed maneuverability and better use at twin seat and carrier fighters, then the close coupled canards are more effective. More high speed maneuverability, then the EF might have some advantages.




Bagee said:


> apart from ground operation can u tell me any thing else special about rafale


 
I guess you meant A2G operation right? 

- passive detection features 
- EM and IR missiles for BVR 
- AESA jamming 
- more sensors especially the TV channel for long range visual identification
- SEAD capability 
- carrier capability
- nuclear capability


All advantages that the EF can't offer, or not anytime soon!


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## Mo12

Well to be honest $115m for one 4th gen jet is a rip off, how ever you look at it, even you put ++ after number 4.

Hence I chose Rafale.


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## Paan Singh

Tin Man said:


> Would you rather deal with a single country for fighter support or a whole collection of them ? Each with their own personal agendas as well. France is a trusted indian ally and a reliable defence partner. This should be taken into consideration.


 
i admire frenchy planes!!!!!!!
i hope france will have upper hand.


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## Bagee

atleast for mirages it has proven to be extremely reliable


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## GORKHALI



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bagee

sancho said:


> According to wiki it is twice as big, according to several other sources it is very low and that's why the Rafale is hard to detect. Regarding the canards, as I showed it depends on what the aim was! More slow speed maneuverability and better use at twin seat and carrier fighters, then the close coupled canards are more effective. More high speed maneuverability, then the EF might have some advantages.
> so are we looking for naval fighters or air force fighters and my dear friend slow speed maneuverability is possible and is now big deal and maneuverability is vital in dog fights and can u please tell me the radar range of the current radars installed because i think eurofighter has much better bvr range and please don't say that it meteor and other things u know if the range is there then maneuverability is required i will be posting the bvr ranges of both don't worry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you meant A2G operation right?
> 
> - passive detection features
> - EM and IR missiles for BVR
> - AESA jamming
> - more sensors especially the TV channel for long range visual identification
> - SEAD capability
> - carrier capability
> - nuclear capability
> 
> 
> All advantages that the EF can't offer, or not anytime soon!


 well i justing coming with some facts wait..


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## Bagee

PANDORA said:


>


 nice pic good
some times i wonder how much that refuelling prob will be adding to the rcs of this plane


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## Bagee

*guys this is the composite composition of this champion*
The airframe surface area is made of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials. In other words, metals make up only 15% of the materials used in building a Eurofighter Typhoon.
In tandem with the aerodynamically unstable design, these strong but lightweight materials mean that the weight and size of the airframe and engine are 10 - 20% smaller and 30% lighter, than they would otherwise have been. This not only means that the aircraft has a reduced radar signature but is also stealthy.


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## Bagee

Carbon Fibre Composites


----------



## Bagee

Aluminium Lithium


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## Bagee

Titanium


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## Bagee

Glass Reinforced Plastic


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## sancho

@ Bagee

Check my post, because I already showed it in comparison for both fighters, or put it in a single post, because so many posts makes it confusing.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ef-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-94.html#post1744834


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## Bagee

Aluminium Casting


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## Bagee

sancho said:


> @ Bagee
> 
> Check my post, because I already showed in comparison for both fighters, or put it in a single post, because so many posts makes it confusing.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ef-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-94.html#post1744834


but i don't think that was the correct composition shown for typhoon thats why i doing it and gain why it has lower rcs and good stol capability
no offences dude


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## jha

@Sancho..

One positive point about RAFALE is that we can hardwire them for special purposes and France wont wake much hue cry..
Lets hope we get a good package deal..


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## Bagee

*Snecma M88*
*General characteristics*
Type: Twin-shaft, turbofan engine
Length: 3538 mm (139.3 in)
Diameter: 900 mm (35.4 in) max
Dry weight: 897 kg (1,977 lb)

*Components*
Compressor: 3 stage low pressure, 6 stage high pressure
Combustors: Annular
Turbine: single stage high pressure, single stage low pressure

*Performance*
Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,250 lbf) dry, 75 kN (16,900 lbf) wet (afterburning)
Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1
Bypass ratio: 0.3
Turbine inlet temperature: 1,850K (2,870 °F)
Fuel consumption: 0.80 kg/(daN*h) (0.78 lbm/(lbf*h)) (dry), 1.75 kg/(daN*h) (1.72 lbm/(lbf*hr)) (wet/afterburning)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 5.7:1 (dry), 8.5:1 (wet/afterburning)
*EJ200*
*General characteristics*
Type: Turbofan
Length: 157 inches (4.0 m)
Diameter: 29 inches (0.737 m)
Dry weight: 2,180 lbs (989 kg)

*Components*
Compressor: 3-stage LP, 5-stage HP
Turbine: 1-stage LP, 1-stage HP

*Performance*
Maximum thrust: 13,500 lbf (60 kN) dry thrust / 20,000 lbf (89 kN) with reheat
Bypass ratio: 0.4:1
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
Turbine inlet temperature: 1,800K
Specific fuel consumption: 21-23 g/kNs dry thrust / 47-49 g/kNs with reheat
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9.175:1


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## Bagee

*EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON*
Crew: 1 (operational aircraft) or 2 (training aircraft)
Length: 15.96 m (52.4 ft)
Wingspan: 10.95 m (35.9 ft)
Height: 5.28 m (17.3 ft)
Wing area: 51.2 m2[220] (551 sq ft)
Empty weight: 11,150 kg (24,600 lb)
Loaded weight: 16,000 kg[220][221] (35,000 lb)
*Max takeoff weight: 23,500 kg (52,000 lb)*
Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,000 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 89 kN (20,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) internal

*Dassault Rafale*
Crew: 12
Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)
Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
Empty weight: 9,500 kg (C), 9,770 kg (B),[78] 10,196 kg (M) ()
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg (30,900 lb)
*Max takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (C/D), 22,200 kg (M) (54,000 lb)*
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each


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## Bagee

*Dassault Rafale*
Performance
*Maximum speed: **High altitude: Mach 1.8+ (1,900+ km/h, 1,026+ knots) 
Low altitude: 1,390 km/h, 750 knots*
Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
*Service ceiling: 16,800 m (55,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
Wing loading: 306 kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile)*

*EURO FIGHTER TYPHOON*
Performance
Maximum speed:
*At altitude: Mach 2 (2,495 km/h/1,550 mph)
At sea level: Mach 1.2 (1,470 km/h/910 mph)
Supercruise: Mach 1.11.5*
Range: 2,900 km (1,800 mi)
Combat radius:
Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601 km (325 nmi)
Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1,389 km (750 nmi)
Air defence with 3-hr combat air patrol: 185 km (100 nmi)
Air defence with 10-min. loiter: 1,389 km (750 nmi)
*Ferry range: 3,790 km (2,350 mi)
Service ceiling: 19,810 m(64,990 ft)
Rate of climb: >315 m/s(62,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 312 kg/m2 (64.0 lb/ft2)*
*Thrust/weight: 1.15*
g-limits: +9/&#8722;3 g


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## Bagee

just havea look with being bias and u will fell some thing for sure


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## localoca

sancho said:


> *
> 
> 
> Rafale also has a sawtooth design feature all over the airframe and even in the air intakes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9612.jpg
> 
> http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9611.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> All stealth fighters begining with the F117 used similar sawtooth design features with the same aim of scattering the radar waves and to reduce the RCS as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both uses high ammounts of composite and RAM materials, also use similar RCS reduction features. Which makes clear that both should have very low RCS, but I don't want to speculate which one is lower.*


* Sancho I am calling you out Troll..

show me something simmilar to this in Rafale


 

I doubt you´ll find a picture of Sawtoothed Rafale Parts *


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## tanlixiang28776

localoca said:


> Sancho I am calling you out Troll..
> 
> show me something simmilar to this in Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt you´ll find a picture of Sawtoothed Rafale Parts


 
Actually you are the troll. 

You are comparing a 4th gen fighter to a fifth gen one.

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## localoca

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Actually you are the troll.
> 
> You are comparing a 4th gen fighter to a fifth gen one.


 
he is the one that stated the Rafale uses Sawtoothed panels


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## kingdurgaking

tallboy123 said:


> Look at the size of Su-30.. Su-30 Rcs would be 60% more than Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale is small compared to Su-30 and will have very less RCS when compared to SU-30
> But Su-30 can carry more weapon load and highy manevourable


 
You are looking fighters at clean configuration... In war scenario it is not the case dude.... you need to count RCS with external loading... so what you can say?? Rafale or EFT will not have 5 m2 alteast???... it is enough for MKI to detect at 150-200 KM of distance away...

all 4.75 gen doesnt make sense unless it is a VLO.... others are not game changers... w.r.t MKI


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## tallboy123

kingdurgaking said:


> You are looking fighters at clean configuration... In war scenario it is not the case dude.... you need to count RCS with external loading... so what you can say?? Rafale or EFT will not have 5 m2 alteast???... it is enough for MKI to detect at 150-200 KM of distance away...
> 
> all 4.75 gen doesnt make sense unless it is a VLO.... others are not game changers... w.r.t MKI


Am not good at aircraft science
can u tell me wat is VLO??


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## Mo12

I am assuming what ever fighter we pick, it will certainly help to shape teja mk2 fighter jet, using they technology ...


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## tallboy123

Mo12 said:


> I am assuming what ever fighter we pick, it will certainly help to shape teja mk2 fighter jet, using they technology ...


 
*The aesa tech that we get from ToT will be used in developing Aesa radar for Tejas Mk.2*

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## Ghoster

tallboy123 said:


> Am not good at aircraft science
> can u tell me wat is *VLO*??



*V*ery *L*ow *O*bservability


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## GORKHALI




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## Roybot




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## Roybot

localoca said:


> Sancho I am calling you out Troll..
> 
> show me something simmilar to this in Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt you´ll find a picture of Sawtoothed Rafale Parts

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## sudhir007




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## IND151

blain2 said:


> Does this report mean that these two are shortlisted or that they were the only two whose bids were expiring thus the request to extend? Maybe the others' bids are not expiring. I ask having read quite few such reports which do not seem to understand the overall process of this bid (neither do I thus I ask).
> 
> Aside from that, IAF would be the only ones flying the Rafale aside from the ADA. Diseconomies of scale come to mind with the Rafale. If IAF does go the route of Rafale with such a large order, it may entice other like Brazilians to consider it as well (along with the UAE). However the risk of only two operators and dealing with the French post sale would require some guarantees. Typhoon would offer some more flexibility here but in the end I think IAF know what they want and the GoI would have to handle the dealings with the French.


 

i was also thinking same. i think Brazil is waiting for result of mrca. if rafale wins, Brazil may buy rafale cause then Brazil wont be alone operator of rafale hence reduction in cost per unit.


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## kingdurgaking

localoca said:


> he is the one that stated the Rafale uses Sawtoothed panels


 
if we show the picture containing saw tooth panel in Rafale will you dip your head in hot coal thar??


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## kingdurgaking

roy_gourav said:


>


 
ho man why did you post them.. we could have played a game with localocal....


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## Roybot

kingdurgaking said:


> ho man why did you post them.. we could have played a game with localocal....


 
I can't stand bs for too long. Simples


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## sudhir007

India fighter jet deal a missed opportunity: US - The Economic Times

The US says India's rejection of American bids for a multibillion dollar contract to supply fighter jets was a missed opportunity to deepen defense ties and share advanced technology.

Assistant Secretary of State Robert Blake said Friday the US was puzzled and "deeply disappointed" by the decision announced last month.

Boeing Co and Lockheed Martin were both bidding for a slice of the $11 billion Indian deal to supply 126 jets.

German consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the French company Dassault Aviation have been shortlisted for the contract.

Blake told a seminar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies that the U.S. had viewed the contract as "a strategic opportunity to really take our defense partnership to the next level."


----------



## localoca

kingdurgaking said:


> if we show the picture containing saw tooth panel in Rafale will you dip your head in hot coal thar??


Yes...


----------



## localoca

roy_gourav said:


> I can't stand bs for too long. Simples


 I stand corrected, but why some panels are sawtoothed and some clearly not?


----------



## Storm Force

GOD ALIMIGHTY THE RAFALE LOOKS AWESOME IN FLIGHT





This will look incredible with su30mki in IAF from 2014 onwards


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## SpArK

*Rafale pictures of the day : New aircrafts delivered​*Saturday, May, 2011






Rafale C130 during a reception flight at Bordeau Merignac - ©Frenchskies - May 9th 2011
Note the single centerline 2000L tank which is the usual loadout for reception flights.





Rafale M32 spotted at Landivisiau Naval Base - ©Azraelle - May 5th 2011​


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## SpArK

*Dominique Sébastien turns the stick putting Rafale in a roll giving back-seater Shiv Aroor a birds-eye view of the Yelahanka township below. [Aero India 2011]*​


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## SpArK

*F-16E/F Block 60 at the sight of a Rafale*






*Super Hornet F-18E/F at the sight of a Rafale*






*Eurofighter Typhoon at the sight of a Rafale*






*Eurofighter Typhoon again at the sight of a Rafale*


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## SpArK



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## SpArK

*Here are some classic reports of rafale superiority over the Typhoon in AtA :
*

1) rafale vs Typhoon in UAE from Lcl Grandclaudon (squadron commander):

Quote:
*The Typhoon were inferiors.
*
Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon - the most recent version - which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles - battles with IR-guided missile and cannon - which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated "red" attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also"red chest" (MiG-29 index "Charlie") when they shot down 4 "blue" Typhoon - flying as Typhoon - while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the "red" plastron role don't prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

*Some advantages that make the difference.
*


However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale ...

Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into "massacre" at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes. A disturbance also compounded by the loss - virtual of course - of an F-22 gun shot by an UAE Mirage 2000-9 flown, this time, by a French experimented pilot. Really, when everything goes wrong ... P


Rafale News

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## SpArK

*Comments from captain Romain :*

Quote:
Lets talk now about the results of this exercise. Your squadron commander speaks of " to have put sheets" to the British participants equipped with Eurofighter with a ratio of 7 victories for 1 defeat, with degraded armament on the side of the Rafale. What is called degraded armament and which were the rules of engagement?

*During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss. 
The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range". *
(For the experts, the Rafale had then simulated the use of a semi-active missile while the missile normally used by the Rafale is an active missile, which allows to take cover more quickly after a shot.) 

What are the differences between the two weapon systems, whether in terms of sensors and situation awareness for the pilot? 

All have always dreamed of hundreds of Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 pilots became reality in the Rafale. It is the result of a long common adventure between Dassault and the French Air Force. The Rafale is the culmination of decades of experience in military aviation. 
Finally, the Rafale fighter is a very complete aircraft: 
*The rafale is extremely maneuvering and thus awesome in dogfight. For example, confronted with a Eurofighter, engaged in a within visual range combat with a neck to neck start, we know we need a few dozens of seconds to validate a 'gun kill'. 
In *BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy. This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest. 
And with an greater extension than the previous generation aircraft, the Rafale carries twice more air-ground weapons.
The AASM, the new auto-powered GPS French bomb, gives a Rafale the ability to replace several Mirage while being more efficient and taking less risk. 
The Eurofighter is a plane built for aerial combat and it fares worse than the Rafale, which is a versatile aircraft (air combat, bombing, reconnaissance).


Rafale News

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## SpArK

*Now in Corsica in pure VWR gun dogfight :
*
Quote:
Enemy Brothers 
Air&Cosmos - June 2010


Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the 'Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale. 

More thrust for the Typhoon 

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors give it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater "extension" than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna "sees" futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for medium-range interception, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced. 
In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter's radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter's one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft. 
Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed. 
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence. 
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds. 

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica . 
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat. 

Nine wins, one defeat 

*This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter*. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.


Military Photos . net ... ws/page101

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## SpArK

Some nice pics of the French weapons on Rafale, including the 30mm gun (EF 27mm) that I found at the MP forum:

















credit Sancho

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## Jon Snow

the greek f 16s beat the hell out of the rafales, does that mean the rafale is inferior to it- no..... These excercises dont prove anything, especially not which is a better fighter.........
In red flag 08 mig 21s were giving f 16s and f 15s trouble, doesnt mean its better than those two...


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## Che Guevara



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## SpArK

French language docu-report on Dassault Rafale (new video)

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## Jon Snow

Eurofighter Typhoon proves close-air support credentials for RAF
good read on cas capability of tranche 2 typhoon

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## Bagee

i pray that eurofighter is purchased by one of india's neighbours and then u will see why rafale is the fighter which no body wants to buy


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## Storm Force

RAFALE will win mmrca i can gurantee this

at $80m each as oppose $115m each for typhoon the cost savings of $3billion will swing RAFALE into indian air force


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## Bagee

Storm Force said:


> RAFALE will win mmrca i can gurantee this
> 
> at $80m each as oppose $115m each for typhoon the cost savings of $3billion will swing RAFALE into indian air force


 i gurantee u that eurofighter is coming like it or hate it because indian air force just wants to bargain i tell u mark it typhoon will be there and then u will be appreciating it


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## Gandhi G in da house

Is there a chance that if Rafale wins India can ask France to become a partner in the development of the 5th gen AMCA fighter ? 

I mean since France doesn't have a 5th gen programme right now and other european countries are going to acquire F-35 from the US , would the French not like to have a programme of their own .

I think India should try for this , France/Dassault's expertise can help India a lot in building a good 5th gen fighter , I don't trust HAL much .


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## sancho

localoca said:


> Sancho I am calling you out Troll..
> 
> I doubt you´ll find a picture of Sawtoothed Rafale Parts


 

As if I would care about your opinion  Especially when you obviously didn't checked the links I provided (under the grafic you even quoted), because they showed the sawtooth pattern all over Rafales airframe.




localoca said:


> he is the one that stated the Rafale uses Sawtoothed panels



Also it's not my fault if you don't read what I wrote correctly, because I never compared, or related the Rafale to 5th gen fighters, but that such sawtooth designs were used on stealth fighters as a feature to reduce the RCS, the same reason why it is used on Rafale. So it's about reduction of the RCS, not about Rafale beeing stealth, that's just your false interpretation!

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## dbc

Jon Snow said:


> the greek f 16s beat the hell out of the rafales, does that mean the rafale is inferior to it- no..... These excercises dont prove anything, especially not which is a better fighter.........
> In red flag 08 mig 21s were giving f 16s and f 15s trouble, doesnt mean its better than those two...


 
German Phantoms decimated the Rafale, one pilot managed to kill five Rafale's. But I do agree, unless you know the circumstances behind the engagement its not possible to draw any conclusion.

Mig 21 - Red Flag 08?

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## Roybot

localoca said:


> I stand corrected, but why some panels are sawtoothed and some clearly not?


 
I shall discuss that with my colleagues at Dassault and get back to you

You really expect random laymen on the interwebs to know about these sensitive details about top of the range fighter planes? Seriously? Its the same discussion on every freaking forum. These queries of yours aren't even original! You have read it on some other forum and you come here and raise the same questions, even though you have most probably read the answers to these "questions" already. Whatever happened to originality.

Anyways here is your answer, for the last time ever, no more spoon feeding for you. 

Info on Dassault Rafale


----------



## sancho

nick_indian said:


> Is there a chance that if Rafale wins India can ask France to become a partner in the development of the 5th gen AMCA fighter ?
> 
> I mean since France doesn't have a 5th gen programme right now and other european countries are going to acquire F-35 from the US , would the French not like to have a programme of their own .
> 
> I think India should try for this , France/Dassault's expertise can help India a lot in building a good 5th gen fighter , I don't trust HAL much .


 
They doesn't have such a program, because they don't want it. They will replace all fighter types with Rafales and might add the nEUROn UCAV for strikes in addition. Which makes the chances of them joining AMCA very small, but consultancy and JV of French companies are possible, if not already started (TVC developments for Kaveri engine, Kaveri - Snecma higher thrust engine for example).




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> German Phantoms decimated the Rafale, one pilot managed to kill five Rafale's. But I do agree, unless you know the circumstances behind the engagement its not possible to draw any conclusion.


 
Based on a picture of a Phantom with killmarks that looks more like the EF then the Rafale.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Based on a picture of a Phantom with killmarks that looks more like the EF then the Rafale.



Yes, the mark that read 'Rafale Eater'


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## Che Guevara




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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes, the mark that read 'Rafale Eater'


 
I know and as I said looks like an EF, check the position of the canards!


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## Zabaniyah

sancho said:


> I know and as I said looks like an EF, check the position of the canards!


 
Actually...that is an F-4 Phantom.






Wait...F-4 beat Rafale?


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## Roybot

Zabanya said:


> Actually...that is an F-4 Phantom.
> 
> Wait...F-4 beat Rafale?



Nah he mean't the little sketch on the F4 looks more like EF-Typhoon than Rafale.


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## SpArK

*Indian State TV Discussion On M-MRCA Contest ​*

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## WAQAS119

Ok....! Here is an interesting thing for you guys!
Below is the picture I made few month back when I didn't know India is going for Rafale..! 

RAFALE KILLER 





no pun intended.


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## rajusri

WAQAS119 said:


> Ok....! Here is an interesting thing for you guys!
> Below is the picture I made few month back when I didn't knew India is going for Rafale..!
> 
> RAFALE KILLER
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no pun intended.


 
Which fighter is that behind? JF-17?


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## WAQAS119

^^^   
Older version of JF-17 is behind Rafale..


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## SpArK

A nice pic of Ground attack AASM ....a rafale can carry 6 on two triple hard points .

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## majesticpankaj

WAQAS119 said:


> ^^^
> Older version of JF-17 is behind Rafale..


 
...hats off to u sir, u are an artist who can think and imagine anything...no pun intended


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## The HBS Guy

WAQAS119 said:


> ^^^
> Older version of JF-17 is behind Rafale..


 
I'm not lying. Please terust me. Not a bit of this is a lie when I tell you that:

Hanste Hanste meri saans atack gayi!


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## rajusri

WAQAS119 said:


> ^^^
> Older version of JF-17 is behind Rafale..


 
JF-17 is too much. it would have been far more realistic if it was F-16 block 52. Good creation though.


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## SpArK

*AASM: FROM PRECISION GUIDED MUNITIONS TO SMART WEAPONS
*











The AASM (in French, Modular Air-to-Ground Weapon) is a family of new-generation smart air-to-ground weapons. All the variants of the family can be fired from a standoff distance and can be fire-and-forget. Depending on each variant, the AASM can strike a fixed or moving target with extremely high precision, both day and night, under all conditions. Interoperable and combat proven, the AASM meets all the spectrum of Air Forces needs at the tactical level.


The AASM is made up of guidance and range extension kits that transform a standard bomb body into a smart weapon. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft. 

The AASMs modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies and have several guidance kits according to the mission: INS/GPS, INS/GPS/infrared and INS/GPS/laser. The infrared imager version overcomes target coordinate errors by undertaking a terminal correction just before impact, and the laser version can be used to strike highly mobile targets. 

The AASM-250 is operational in the French Air Force in overseas operations and has been successfully used in combat on the Rafale since 2008. The AASM-125 was successfully tested in February 2009 on a Mirage 2000. The AASM-1000 is under development, as are new features such as airburst and data link. 

Thanks to its ease of use, maneuverability and its vertical strike capability, the AASM covers all offensive air missions: in-depth attacks, Air Interdiction, Close Air Support (including in urban environments), SEAD-type or anti-ship special missions, etc. The AASM is programmed with target coordinates and can be reprogrammed in flight, enabling it to engage several targets simultaneously (up to six in the case of the Rafale.) 

The AASM is also commercialized by MDBA as part of its comprehensive weapons offer, which aims to meet the needs of international air forces.

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## MumbaiIndians

F-4 is outdated scrap. It can't beat even JF-17.


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## SpArK

MumbaiIndians said:


> F-4 is outdated scrap. It can't beat even JF-17.


 
*Dude u dont get it , if India chooses Rafale , people will say even the plane made by Wright brothers is better than Rafale.. 

Just wait for a couple of months.*

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## Mo12

Spark do you know how buying the new jets, will help in teja mk2?


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## axisofevil

The one major issue that many of you have overlooked is that with Euro Fighter we become an Actual partner in the program, not like Austria, Saudi Arabia, etc. With Rafale, we are just TOT customers.....like Scorpene Subs....take a good look at how wonderful that worked out. Also, take into account how the French went to supply Agostas to the Pakstani navy with slightly better tech, AIP and more! S, now the French have stated we are willing to re think our stratgic relation with Pakistan. Funny don;t you think? Our future is better served with the Germans who actually love India and who happen to be a major partner in the Typhoon. They have also denied the sales of their subs to Pakistan. it is also where Israel gets her subs. The French jumped on Libya to showcase their abilities. Nothing more nothing less.


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## axisofevil

A good plane doesn;t need salesmen to push their product. The advantages should be able to come forward. I think the poll is not effective. how mnay posters are Indian, pakistani, chinese, etc? How many are false posters? please take that into consideration, Also, I cannot stand it when folks make such stupid statements a s to how good lookking this plane or that plane is. It doesn't matter how the plane looks to the naked eye, it is the advantages and capabilities and the long term relationship, we should be worried about.


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Dude u dont get it , if India chooses Rafale , people will say even the *plane made by Wright brothers is better than Rafale.. *
> 
> Just wait for a couple of months.


 

This is one truth you have told about RAFALE...

Jeetega Bhai Jeetega , Eurofighter Jeetega..

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## Eurofighter IN

If Eurofighter get's the nod this option is a must for the IAF version


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## Black Widow

If we are keeping PAF in Mind, We should go for RAAFEL, else If we thing that some one repeat 1962, we must for EFT... EFT with MKI will be formidable combination.... 

By having 120 EFT, we will have 420+, 4+ gen Air superiority fighters... (280+ MKI, 120+ EFT, 50 + MiG29K).. china has 500+ 4th gen fighter (200 J10, and 300+ Su27 variant)

We should have 1:1 (at least) superiority fighter of same generation...


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## koushik

Mo12 said:


> Spark do you know how buying the new jets, will help in teja mk2?


 
In my opinion the new jets dö not have any relation with Tejas MK-2.the new jets are MMRCA that is Medium multirole combat aircraft which perform various versatile operations like air superiority,ground attack,SEAD whereas Tejas is light fighter mainly intended for air interception with a secondary ground attack role.By selecting the MMRCA the IAF wants to replace Typical ground attack jets with more versatile multirole platforms.The Tejas mk1 and mk2 will both replace MiG-21s which are interceptors.However Tejas-mk2 would be more multirole and a bit heavier.Otherwise there is no connection between MMRCA and Tejas Mk-2.


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## koushik

axisofevil said:


> The one major issue that many of you have overlooked is that with Euro Fighter we become an Actual partner in the program, not like Austria, Saudi Arabia, etc. With Rafale, we are just TOT customers.....like Scorpene Subs....take a good look at how wonderful that worked out. Also, take into account how the French went to supply Agostas to the Pakstani navy with slightly better tech, AIP and more! S, now the French have stated we are willing to re think our stratgic relation with Pakistan. Funny don;t you think? Our future is better served with the Germans who actually love India and who happen to be a major partner in the Typhoon. They have also denied the sales of their subs to Pakistan. it is also where Israel gets her subs. The French jumped on Libya to showcase their abilities. Nothing more nothing less.


 
There are many reasons why Rafael should be selected in the MMRCA.the rafale has lot of similarities with Mirage-2000 which IAF already has,so simpler logistics.If we go by the name of the Tender MMRCA, the Rafale fits the bill because it is a more mature multirole platform than EFT.the IAF already operates a similar aircraft like EFT the MKI which is an Air superiority/multirole jet.the MMRCA will replace the mig-27s which are ground attack jets and so Rafale will win as it has potent A2G Platforms.the french have stopped the transfer of avionics,radar,missiles to pakistani Jf-17 blk-2.rafale will win.


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## jha

Black Widow said:


> If we are keeping PAF in Mind, We should go for RAAFEL, else If we thing that some one repeat 1962, we must for EFT... EFT with MKI will be formidable combination....
> 
> By having 120 EFT, we will have 420+, 4+ gen Air superiority fighters... (280+ MKI, 120+ EFT, 50 + MiG29K).. china has 500+ 4th gen fighter (200 J10, and 300+ Su27 variant)
> 
> We should have 1:1 (at least) superiority fighter of same generation...



Excellent analysis..

IAF must maintain 1:1 ratio in Air-Superiority against China and if that ratio co relates to a higher ratio against any other adversary then so be it..
And this is precisely why i advocate EF... The Ground work can always be done by dedicated Squads..And anyways since the aircrafts will be with us for ~40 years, We cant tell the coming generations of Pilots that we selected a plane 'X' because it had Ground attack capabilities two years before the plane 'Y'..


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## Bang Galore

koushik said:


> There are many reasons why Rafael should be selected in the MMRCA.the rafale has lot of similarities with Mirage-2000 which IAF already has,so simpler logistics.If we go by the name of the Tender MMRCA, the Rafale fits the bill because it is a more mature multirole platform than EFT.the IAF already operates a similar aircraft like EFT the MKI which is an Air superiority/multirole jet.the MMRCA will replace the mig-27s which are ground attack jets and so Rafale will win as it has potent A2G Platforms.the french have stopped the transfer of avionics,radar,missiles to pakistani Jf-17 blk-2.rafale will win.


 
These arguments are too simplistic. India would have bought Russian aircraft's if similarities with existing platforms were the criteria. The fact that the EF has been shortlisted means that it meets all the criteria set by the IAF. Mature platform? That's a dicey argument since the F-18 was a contender especially with the AESA radar being a proven, mature one. Can't use one argument against the SH & use it again to favour Rafale. What is more likely being decided now are the commercial offers by the respective contenders. The technical stuff has already been completed. What matters now is what more can the two contenders offer India in order to be the chosen one. Technology transfers, offsets,future developments price are going to be what decides who is going to get what. I believe it will be a rather close affair since both these parties are pretty desperate to get the order. Dassault needs to hopefully offer up replacements for the M2k's because the EF consortium will probably have the edge with the offsets because of Airbus. They can always offer more work of Airbus that could be transferred to India which could be over & above the offsets. Dassault will have big problems with the offsets since they don't enjoy the same advantage. Hopefully at the end of it all, India wins big!


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## koushik

Bang Galore said:


> These arguments are too simplistic. India would have bought Russian aircraft's if similarities with existing platforms were the criteria. The fact that the EF has been shortlisted means that it meets all the criteria set by the IAF. Mature platform? That's a dicey argument since the F-18 was a contender especially with the AESA radar being a proven, mature one. Can't use one argument against the SH & use it again to favour Rafale. What is more likely being decided now are the commercial offers by the respective contenders. The technical stuff has already been completed. What matters now is what more can the two contenders offer India in order to be the chosen one. Technology transfers, offsets,future developments price are going to be what decides who is going to get what. I believe it will be a rather close affair since both these parties are pretty desperate to get the order. Dassault needs to hopefully offer up replacements for the M2k's because the EF consortium will probably have the edge with the offsets because of Airbus. They can always offer more work of Airbus that could be transferred to India which could be over & above the offsets. Dassault will have big problems with the offsets since they don't enjoy the same advantage. Hopefully at the end of it all, India wins big!


 
even if the F-18 was selected,the Full value of the APG-79 wouldnt have been exploited as it would be included with Restrictions.Any ways the Super Hornet was rejected on technical grounds.The Rafale is cheaper than EFT as well.However even if EFT or Rafale is selected The indians will get a leap in Operational readiness.


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## Zabaniyah

WAQAS119 said:


> Ok....! Here is an interesting thing for you guys!
> Below is the picture I made few month back when I didn't know India is going for Rafale..!
> 
> RAFALE KILLER
> 
> 
> no pun intended.


 
Looks like an F-4 Phantom chasing it


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

WAQAS119 said:


> Ok....! Here is an interesting thing for you guys!
> Below is the picture I made few month back when I didn't know India is going for Rafale..!
> 
> RAFALE KILLER
> 
> 
> no pun intended.


 
wow, it seems u have answer to indian MMRCA. ask u r govt to purchase second hand F-4. i am sure they will be happy to buy.


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## SpArK

Austrian EF


[video]http://www.tccb.gov.tr/playVideo.asp?vid=18091[/video]

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## JayAtl

I have not made my mind up yet or voted in the poll BUT must say that Santro is making a stronger case to date... the EF boys need to speak up...he is owning you guys on this thread with his precise informative posts.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *AASM: FROM PRECISION GUIDED MUNITIONS TO SMART WEAPONS
> *


 
Our forces really need to add this weapon, at least on the higher end above our own LGBs. Would love to see the company that develops Sudarshan LGB to form a JV with MBDA on an extended range AASM, as a standoff weapon, comparable to JSOW, or HOSBO. Would be a great addition for our strike packages, be it on India, western, or Russian fighters.

LGB - Sudarshan, Paveway
PGM - AASM, KAB
Standoff - ER AASM, Kh 59
CAS/ATGM - ER Helina
Anti radiation - AASM, X-58USHKE
Anti ship - Brahmos, Kh31 / 35, Harpoon
Cruise missile - Brahmos, Scalp


These weapon would give Tejas, Rafale, MKI, FGFA and AURA UCAV excellent strike capabilities and IAF many alternatives in this role. Laser or sat guidance (GPS, Glonass, maybe even indigenous soon), IR, data link, high or low altitude attack, with supersonic speeds, with CEPs of only 1m...


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## Eurofighter IN

Eurofighter better for India due to excellent performance in a hot humid climate like India with higher thrust engines and the new E Captor aesa will be better than the Rafale RBE2.

Eurofighter will improve it's A2G capability in the coming years as it being the newest fighter in the MRCA contest and the Euroblock nations will give good tech transfer they need this deal and will bend over backwards along with the french to get it.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Our forces really need to add this weapon, at least on the higher end above our own LGBs. Would love to see the company that develops Sudarshan LGB to form a JV with MBDA on an extended range AASM, as a standoff weapon, comparable to JSOW, or HOSBO. Would be a great addition for our strike packages, be it on India, western, or Russian fighters.
> 
> LGB - Sudarshan, Paveway
> PGM - AASM, KAB
> Standoff - ER AASM, Kh 59
> CAS/ATGM - ER Helina
> Anti radiation - AASM, X-58USHKE
> Anti ship - Brahmos, Kh31 / 35, Harpoon
> Cruise missile - Brahmos, Scalp
> 
> 
> These weapon would give Tejas, Rafale, MKI, FGFA and AURA UCAV excellent strike capabilities and IAF many alternatives in this role. Laser or sat guidance (GPS, Glonass, maybe even indigenous soon), IR, data link, high or low altitude attack, with supersonic speeds, with CEPs of only 1m...


 
For a larger AASM in the 500kg (IAF's preferred bomb size) and 1000kg class, it would make sense to use these for attacking heavily defended C2 centres from stand-off ranges (15km to 50km). Rafale could come in low (Terrain Following modes) and launch the AASM in the popup mode (AASM powers up upwards trajectory and then drops straight down on the target) to evade long range SAMs. In this role, it would serve similar role as the ALCM but at a lower cost ($300K vs $1million) and being able to hit the target with a bigger ordnance size.







Courtesy srai, BR

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> For a larger AASM in the 500kg (IAF's preferred bomb size) and 1000kg class, it would make sense to use these for attacking heavily defended C2 centres from stand-off ranges (15km to 50km). Rafale could come in low (Terrain Following modes) and launch the AASM in the popup mode (AASM powers up upwards trajectory and then drops straight down on the target) to evade long range SAMs. In this role, it would serve similar role as the ALCM but at a lower cost ($300K vs $1million) and being able to hit the target with a bigger ordnance size.




The 500Kg class bombs were prefered in the past by all air forces, because you can strike hardened targets like concrete shelters, or bridges as well as armoured vehicles or troops. But today the trend is to smaller, more effective bomb kits that creates less collateral damage. That's why most CAS strikes in Libya were made with 250Kg Paveway, or AASM kits, or the even lighter Brimstone missile. The French even hase the AASM 125Kg (actually the same kit as the 250, just a smaller bomb), which offers more range, while the US already developed comparable size SDB kits, because you can carry more of them, compared to bigger 500Kg PGMs.
IAF is evaluating AASM and SPICE for Mirage 2000 upgrade now, while the latter is available only in 500 and 1000Kg versions, we saw 250, 500 and 1000Kg AASM versions displayed on Aero India, although I think the 125 should be on offer as well:







The 125 would be also a great SEAD weapon, with ranges between 70 and 100Km, if they would even an a wing kit, it could be furter increased and even an anti radiation seeker is possible (France did not developed it, because the GPS version has proved to be very effective as well).


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## sancho

udiptoghsh said:


> which would b a better buy...rafael..or eurofighter typhoon?????


 
For Indian forces? Rafale

- ready developed and available from next year on
- combat proven
- true multi role capable and medium weight class
- better EWS and passive detection features
- 2 x BVR missiles with different seekers
- better weapon package and loadouts
- suits better between LCA and MKI, capability and weightwise
- carrier and nuclear versions available for IN, or SFC
- dedicated EW version possible
- commonality to Mirage 2000 and already available logistics gives advantages in fast induction
- most likely L1
- all main techs developed by France and they proved to be reliable in sanction times
- more possible JV / co-developments that would benefit LCA and Rafale (HMS, weapons, AESA radar, Kaveri engine...)
- long experience with French companies for JV, co-developments, ToT...
- best consultancy partner for AURA UCAV (Dassault is the leading company behind the nEUROn as well)


Just some points...

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## koushik

The IAF Precision guided munitions and stand off mis$ile should include Russian- KAB-500KR, KAB-1500 LGB, Kh-59Mk stand-off missile, Kh-31 and Kh-35U Anti ship missile,Kh-31P and Kh-58 UsHKE anti radiation missile. French AASM-(125,250,500) PGM/LGB, MBDA ARMAT and ALARM Anti Radiation Missile,Scalp EG PGM,the Indian Sudarshan LGB,brahmos ALCM, NAG ATGM. The american stuff would include CBU-105 Sensor fused weapon,Paveway II/III LGB,Harpoon cruise missile. not to forget india also operates Crystal Maze PGM.a formidable arsenal indeed.


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## Jon Snow

udiptoghsh said:


> which would b a better buy...rafael..or eurofighter typhoon?????


 
I would go for the eurofighter typhoon
- We become partner in the program (i.e. we get a say in future upgrades of the eft thus we can tailor it to indian conditions like mki)
- much better inventory of a2a weapons as opposed to the rafale's only mica and meteor
- huge order book all over the world as opposed to the rafale
- better engines - higher thrust and we wont have to change them as we will with the rafale's when the m 88-4e comes out
- more expensive in flyaway cost but less maintenance and cheaper weapons, hence net cost could very well be below the rafale's
- when tranche 3 is complete( it will be if india joins the program) it would become the equal of rafale in a2g and far better in a2a (which it already is)
- the future aesa radar of eft is far superior than the rafale's
- next gen hms system
- eads will offer better offsets as so many companies are involved in the project that work distribution will be so much easier
- the french might have support us during sanctions but they have past associations with pakistan as well and will readily sell their best tech to pakistan if pakistan can come up with the cash eg- the agosta subs and avionics for jf 17


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> - more expensive in flyaway cost *but less maintenance and cheaper weapons, hence net cost could very well be below the rafale's*


 
Based on? 

Would be interested in any reliable source for EF maintenance, if possible even compared to Rafale, because I didn't found anyone yet.

The weapons can't be much cheaper, because most of those that the EF will get, will the Rafale have as well.

Weapons EF / Rafale:

WVR - most likely Asraam, because it's an option for Jaguars as well / MICA IR
BVR - METEOR both (Rafale uses MICA IR at BVR ranges as well)
LGB - US Paveway bomb kits for both
CM - Storm Shadow / Scalp, different versions of the same missile
CAS - Brimstone is in talk for both, possibly even earlier for Rafale


The EF partners are replacing their US missiles by METEOR and wants to use European weapons in future mainly, just like the French already does. Only because the EF can use older US missiles, it doesn't mean India would buy them, especially when METEOR is much more capable.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> Based on?
> 
> Would be interested in any reliable source for EF maintenance, if possible even compared to Rafale, because I didn't found anyone yet.
> 
> The weapons can't be much cheaper, because most of those that the EF will get, will the Rafale have as well.
> 
> Weapons EF / Rafale:
> 
> WVR - most likely Asraam, because it's an option for Jaguars as well / MICA IR
> BVR - METEOR both (Rafale uses MICA IR at BVR ranges as well)
> LGB - US Paveway bomb kits for both
> CM - Storm Shadow / Scalp, different versions of the same missile
> CAS - Brimstone is in talk for both, possibly even earlier for Rafale
> 
> 
> The EF partners are replacing their US missiles by METEOR and wants to use European weapons in future mainly, just like the French already does. Only because the EF can use older US missiles, it doesn't mean India would buy them, especially when METEOR is much more capable.


 
I don't think Typhoon is going to cost us more. In fact Rafale will cost just as much as the Typhoon. The European missiles are extremely expensive. With Rafale we have no option but to go for Meteor($2 million) and MICA($1.6 million). A single aircraft with 10 missiles(6 Meteor + 4 MICA) would carry missiles worth $19 million. That's crazy.

With Typhoon we have the option to go with Sidewinder($3,50,000) and AIM-120C($5,00,000) or even AIM-120D($1 million).
A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million.

So every time Typhoon makes a sortie in a war, it shoots down more enemies and saves $9 million. Remember, that's just one sortie, and a single aircraft does 20-40 sorties even in short wars.

With same no. of missiles, the difference becomes $10.5 million. That's huge. The Typhoon will recover its costs within two sorties. And start to become cheaper than Rafale after the second sortie.

Guess which aircraft's cheaper now... 
credit jagjitnatt IDF

nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> ...*A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles*(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million...
> 
> 
> *Guess which aircraft's cheaper now...
> credit jagjitnatt IDF
> *
> 
> *nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated* or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor



So you have no figures for the maintenance costs of the EF and just take estimated missile costs as the base for the theory that EF should be cheaper.
Even that is based on the wrong assumption, that IAF would buy 2 different BVR missiles for a single fighter, which no other fighter in the fleet can use. 

Secondly, can you show me on the following pic how the EF can carry 14 missiles and how far it will fly without fuel tanks?







Even if you take all wingstations for AAMs only it can carry a max of 12 missiles, but such a load is not possible with a single fuel tank, at least to useful ranges. Even today in Libya it carries 8 x AAMs (as shown on the pic) with 2, or even 3 fuel tanks, which means when we look at it more realistically and not only based on the specs on paper, it might carry 10 x AAMs + 3 fuel tanks at max (Rafale 8 + 3) and the only difference as I said will be the SR missiles, while both will carry Meteor. 

Btw, nobody said that the Aim 120*D* is outdated, it's simply not integrated at EF, a fact that jagjitnatt keeps ignoring:




> There will be three Eurofighter production phases or "tranches":
> 
> * The first 38 "*Tranche 1*" machines will be configured for training, with a basic hardware and software configuration. It appears this initial batch will be mostly or all two-seater machines.
> 
> The following 105 Tranche 1 machines will be fitted to an improved hardware and software specification, providing support for basic air-combat capabilities with the *AIM-9L Sidewinder*, the ASRAAM, and the *AIM-120B AMRAAM.* The remaining machines will feature the next level of software, which add a limited air-to-ground capability, and bring the Eurofighter up to the capability level envisioned in the aircraft's long-standing specification. Britain and Italy have successfully lobbied for some additions in the Tranche 1 specification to support various laser-guided bombs (LGBs).
> 
> * "*Tranche 2*" will add software for an enhanced air defense capability, a direct voice input (DVI) capability, MIDS / Link 16 data link, and a basic DASS.
> 
> Sets of "Enhanced Operational Capabilities (EOCs)" are being considered for Tranche 2 aircraft. "EOC1" lists support of the IRIS-T and *AIM-120C5 AMRAAM* missiles, both with "off-boresight" targeting capability, as well as GPS-enhanced LGBs. "EOC2" list supports of the Meteor BVRAAM, Brimstone, Storm Shadow, and the KEPD 350 Taurus missiles. The EOCs are currently in definition and may change over time.



The Eurofighter Typhoon


Only older Amraam versions were integrated and will be replaced by Meteor as soon as it will be available, just like Aim 9X is not available, because the Europeans replaces the older AIM 9 versions with Asraam and Iris-T.


Now lets get back to real maintenance issues, here are some points why the EF T3B might be costlier to operate than Rafale:

- swashplate AESA vs fixed RBE 2 AESA => more mechanical parts that requires more maintenance

- retractable fuel probe vs fixed => see above

- air brake vs no air brake => see above

- bigger air superiority fighter with, bigger engines vs true medium class fighter in the F16 / Mirage 2000 class and maintenance routines based on the latter


Some more reason are discribed here:



> ...For Col. Moussez, the big change for the Rafale, compared to other combat aircraft in the AdlA fleet, has been the elimination of scheduled maintenance: "The aircraft has an on-the-way maintenance concept. Theres no more scheduled maintenance on the airframe which makes for a lot of savings."
> 
> The removal of scheduled maintenance was a requirement for the Rafale programme from the outset. "It was the French government which imposed the maintenance concept for the Rafale, the first combat aircraft in the world which had both operational and support requirements," according to Yves Robins, Dassault Aviation director of communications. The use of computer-aided design (CAD) tools helped. "We used different tools such as CATIA modelling software," Robins explains. "During the design phase we were able to rehearse the maintenance, removal and installation of equipment on the aircraft to determine what would be the most convenient way. We were able to influence the design of the components so that they could be easily removed and installed... we were able to perform virtual maintenance and even before the first designs were made, locate where the problems were to solve them virtually."
> 
> To reduce the Rafales maintenance burden, Dassault has embedded sensors throughout the airframe to record details of the aircrafts behavior. This data is recorded and downloaded into two data cartridges, one of which contains flight operational data and the other maintenance data. These are accessed by the groundcrew on a computer, which can pinpoint the precise cause of a problem and rectify it with line replaceable units (LRUs). "As soon as you have flown, you have the results," remarks Robins. "It tells you very precisely what is happening in different zones."
> 
> Rafales predecessor, the Mirage 2000, had embedded sensors in the aircraft to record the behavior of the aircrafts mission systems. "The aircraft is its own test bench. You dont need a lot of systems besides the aircraft for troubleshooting. You have just one test bench for all the aircrafts systems, which use shop replaceable units," Moussez says
> 
> Modular design is an important element of reducing the aircrafts maintenance burden. "The engine has 21 modules," Moussez continues, "so even without moving the engine you can repair it. You can move the engine from the aircraft with a crane and that takes you roughly one hour." The aircraft also makes light use of ground support equipment (GSE). For example, the same GSE can be used for the Thales RBE2 radar and frontal electro-optical package. "We tried to reduce the specific GSE to make the aircraft easy to deploy overseas," he notes. The innovations that Dassault has built into the Rafale reduce the necessary groundcrew to eight personnel  25 percent less than the Mirage 2000 and again, this is to ease deployment.
> 
> Space on the Charles de Gualle, Frances solitary aircraft carrier, is at a premium and the savings on GSE and manpower is an important feature. "The French government imposed commonality on the two Rafale types. What is interesting is that on the aircraft carrier, all maintenance has to be done within the shade of the aircraft, so to speak," says Robins. Moreover, the naval deployment has given Dassault and the AdlA a good idea of the maintenance burden on the aircraft when it is deployed in harsh conditions. The Kandahar deployment will deepen that knowledge further giving an idea of how the aircraft holds up in the dusty, hot terrain. Word on the street from the AdlA is "so far, so good."  By Thomas Withington




Aviation Maintenance Magazine :: Aviation Maintenance: Intelligence: News

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## tallboy123

So guys which one will win???
how many of u shifted ur party??? and to which one???

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## MumbaiIndians

tallboy123 said:


> So guys which one will win???
> how many of u shifted ur party??? and to which one???


 
I am with both rafale and typhoon. But would be more happy if MRCA is scrapped. 

Rafale looks beautiful but Typhoon has more future.

Typhoon advantages =

- big nose(nice for future AESA upgrades n )
- Better under fuselage space n topography, better organised hardpoints(nice for future arrangements n )
- politically better option.

Rafale advantages =
- looks beautiful
- french women are beautiful n sexy, yumm.
- looks beautiful.


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## luckyyy

Jon Snow said:


> I don't think Typhoon is going to cost us more. In fact Rafale will cost just as much as the Typhoon. The European missiles are extremely expensive. With Rafale we have no option but to go for Meteor($2 million) and MICA($1.6 million). A single aircraft with 10 missiles(6 Meteor + 4 MICA) would carry missiles worth $19 million. That's crazy.
> 
> With Typhoon we have the option to go with Sidewinder($3,50,000) and AIM-120C($5,00,000) or even AIM-120D($1 million).
> A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million.
> 
> *So every time Typhoon makes a sortie in a war, it shoots down more enemies and saves $9 million. Remember, that's just one sortie, and a single aircraft does 20-40 sorties even in short wars.*
> 
> With same no. of missiles, the difference becomes $10.5 million. That's huge. The Typhoon will recover its costs within two sorties. And start to become cheaper than Rafale after the second sortie.
> 
> Guess which aircraft's cheaper now...
> credit jagjitnatt IDF
> 
> nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor


 
that's realy nice/cool calculations...


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## dbc

Jon Snow said:


> nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor



AIM-120D is not cleared for export and the Meteor is a RAM jet propelled 'skid to turn' missile, lethal against less maneuverable targets (blimp or large bomber) not so much against agile fighters.


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## Bagee

axisofevil said:


> The one major issue that many of you have overlooked is that with Euro Fighter we become an Actual partner in the program, not like Austria, Saudi Arabia, etc. With Rafale, we are just TOT customers.....like Scorpene Subs....take a good look at how wonderful that worked out. Also, take into account how the French went to supply Agostas to the Pakstani navy with slightly better tech, AIP and more! S, now the French have stated we are willing to re think our stratgic relation with Pakistan. Funny don;t you think? Our future is better served with the Germans who actually love India and who happen to be a major partner in the Typhoon. They have also denied the sales of their subs to Pakistan. it is also where Israel gets her subs. The French jumped on Libya to showcase their abilities. Nothing more nothing less.


 
grt thought indeed look at arjun and lepord a2 germany has always been genuine


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## Jon Snow

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *AIM-120D is not cleared for export* and the Meteor is a RAM jet propelled 'skid to turn' missile, lethal against less maneuverable targets (blimp or large bomber) not so much against agile fighters.


pretty sure it will be cleared in the next few years( they do have to export it with the f 35 anyways )


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> pretty sure it will be cleared in the next few years( they do have to export it with the f 35 anyways )


 
Not to European countries like UK, or Italy, that want to use METEOR on F35 as well. You have to understand that the Europeans as a whole (not only France) wants to be more independent in the choice of weapons from US. That's why they replace their older US missiles with new European, or why they ask for source codes of F35, which they don't get.
so if even they have issues with the US in these fields, why should we make us dependent on them?


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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> I don't think Typhoon is going to cost us more. In fact Rafale will cost just as much as the Typhoon. The European missiles are extremely expensive. With Rafale we have no option but to go for Meteor($2 million) and MICA($1.6 million). A single aircraft with 10 missiles(6 Meteor + 4 MICA) would carry missiles worth $19 million. That's crazy.
> 
> With Typhoon we have the option to go with Sidewinder($3,50,000) and AIM-120C($5,00,000) or even AIM-120D($1 million).
> A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million.
> 
> So every time Typhoon makes a sortie in a war, it shoots down more enemies and saves $9 million. Remember, that's just one sortie, and a single aircraft does 20-40 sorties even in short wars.
> 
> With same no. of missiles, the difference becomes $10.5 million. That's huge. The Typhoon will recover its costs within two sorties. And start to become cheaper than Rafale after the second sortie.
> 
> Guess which aircraft's cheaper now...
> credit jagjitnatt IDF
> 
> nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor


 

EFT is a chota MKI... why do you want another MKI form in the arsenal .... EFT technology is good ... but why take the risk of sanctions... 
Secondly Rafale is giving full ToT, source code , etc etc... It is very competitive.. It is sanction free..


----------



## Jon Snow

kingdurgaking said:


> EFT is a chota MKI... why do you want another MKI form in the arsenal .... EFT technology is good ... but why take the risk of sanctions...
> Secondly Rafale is giving full ToT, source code , etc etc... It is very competitive.. It is sanction free..


 
eft sanctions wont affect us as we will have full tot and production line in india..... Eft is not a mini mki, just by having a far smaller rcs it will have completely different role in the iaf.....
Also we will be partners in the project getting profits from future eft sales and upgrades....it is similar to mki in the way that as partners in the program we define what upgrades we want thereby making it tailormade for indian conditions...... French supported us during sanctions but they also sell their latest tech to pakistan like agosta subs and avionics hence they are not to be trusted, they are also robbing us in mirage upgrade deal, you can expect to pay just as much or probably higher when we upgrade the rafale( and there will be a hell of a lot more rafales than mirages in our inventory) 

as for the lack of a2g in eft.... It can currently provide cas and fire lgb and paveway 2/3, when we upgrade to tranche 3( if the europeans cant afford it doesnt mean we cant)it will be as good as the rafale in a2g while retaining superiority in a2a.....its aesa is better than the rafale, it has more composites than the rafale(82 vs 75), the m 88 is not reliable as was seen in the aero india, the ej 200 is highr thrust and less maintenance hungry.... Hence making the eft the wiser choice


----------



## luckyyy

[...............


----------



## Jon Snow

as for maintenance - one of the main parts that require lots of maintenance is the engine

Overview 
Engine of the Eurofighter Typhoon

Description 
The EJ200 is an advanced augmented low-BPR turbofan designed for the propulsion of agile aircraft at Mach numbers up to at least 2. It is fully modular, and allows for on-condition maintenance with built-in engine health monitoring and test equipment. *Low maintenance and life-cycle cost, along with high reliability, have been prime design criteria. Compared with previous-generation engines (Eurojet nominate the F404, F414, RB199 and M88) the EJ200 has "two to four compressor stages less, up to two turbine stages less, and up to one-third fewer rotating parts".* The EJ200 is claimed to combine the highest thrust-to-weight ratio with the most simple engine architecture. The EJ200 has a three-stage fan, and five-stage high pressure compressor driven by single-stage air cooled turbines with single crystal blade technology. Brush seals are widely used instead of labyrinth seals in the air system.The EJ200 engine development programme was structured in four phases : Phase 1, Technology Acquisition. This phase began in 1985, immediately before the formal establishment of the international management companies for the airframe and engine. The broad design of the engine was completed in 1986.Phase 2, Design Verification. The first Design Verification Engine (DVE) was tested in November 1988. Superficially, but not in detail, it resembled today's production engine.Phase 3, Full Scale Development (FSD). In 1991 funding was provided for 14 development engines. The first of these engines were delivered to the customer in 1994 for flight testing. The third Development Aircraft (DA3), at that time called an EF2000, made its first flight


Eurojet EJ200 (International) - Aero-Engines
less parts than the m 88 means it requires less maintenance
I dont have access to full article as I am not a subscriber

the typhoon also has 82% composite structure, meaning less parts , longer life span and less maintenance


----------



## koushik

Meteor is a fantastic Missile.It is powered by a throttalable ducted rocket(ramjet) giving it six times the kinematic performance as compared to other BVRAAMs.It has full thrust till its entire flight and it even accelarates when approaching near its target.The meteor even has multishot capability and ability to destroy even the most stealthiest of cruise missile and PGMs.It is an awesome weapon.


----------



## dbc

Jon Snow said:


> eft sanctions wont affect us as we will have full tot and production line in india.....


That is an unrealistic expectation, consortia nations have invested a 100 Billion dollars on the Typhoon a large chuck of it on research and engineering. It is unlikely India will get "full ToT" for 10 to 30 billion dollars from the Euro consortium or France. The best India can hope for is a symbiotic partnership, a risk /reward sharing arrangement where some critical components are sourced from India by all participating nations. If India is able to negotiate such then the risk of sanctions is somewhat mitigated, as sanctions will hurt all partners. 



Jon Snow said:


> Eft is not a mini mki, just by having a far smaller rcs it will have completely different role in the iaf.....Also we will be partners in the project getting profits from future eft sales and upgrades....it is similar to mki in the way that as partners in the program we define what upgrades we want thereby making it tailormade for indian conditions...... French supported us during sanctions but they also sell their latest tech to pakistan like agosta subs and avionics hence they are not to be trusted, they are also robbing us in mirage upgrade deal, you can expect to pay just as much or probably higher when we upgrade the rafale( and there will be a hell of a lot more rafales than mirages in our inventory)




The MMRCA deal is a business transaction you cannot expect France to not sell to nations hostile to India. There is every indication that France and other European nations want to sell to China, US objection is the only remaining barrier to European weapons sales to China. Once the ink dries on the MMRCA contract these nations will pursue business opportunities in China and Pakistan expecting the contrary is a delusional.


----------



## Yeti

If the Eurofighter get's picked it will need US to give the green light due to certain american part's in the fighter just like what happened when Saudi's joined the program.


----------



## Yeti

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The MMRCA deal is a business transaction you cannot expect France to not sell to nations hostile to India. There is every indication that France and other European nations want to sell to China, US objection is the only remaining barrier to European weapons sales to China. *Once the ink dries on the MMRCA contract these nations will pursue business opportunities in China and Pakistan expecting the contrary is a delusional*.




US has come down heavily on China's human right's in the last few weeks and do remember MRCA is just one of many pie's in the Indian market the French want to be part of our next gen sub tender and the yanks want more orders for P8, C130 and the new order of C-17 all the card's remain with India when it comes to a much smaller Pakistan market, as for China there must be a change in EU law which will be hard to push through in this moment of time.


----------



## dbc

Yeti said:


> US has come down heavily on China's human right's in the last few weeks and do remember MRCA is just one of many pie's in the Indian market the French want to be part of our next gen sub tender and the yanks want more orders for P8, C130 and the new order of C-17 all the card's remain with India when it comes to a much smaller Pakistan market, as for China there must be a change in EU law which will be hard to push through in this moment of time.


 
You really think India has enough money to keep France, Russia, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Israel, United Kingdom and the United States committed and exclusive indefinitely? Among EU nations the United Kingdom is the only nation opposed to resuming arms sales to China. US Arms sales to India is negligible and does not alter the balance of trade between the United States and India that currently favors India, India is yet to open up its markets and dismantle barriers to free trade. The United States is India's largest investment partner and donor, the amount spent on P8's, C130's and C-17's pales in comparison to US imports, investments and aid to India.


----------



## Yeti

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You really think India has enough money to keep France, Russia, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Israel, United Kingdom and the United States committed and exclusive indefinitely? Among EU nations the United Kingdom is the only nation opposed to resuming arms sales to China. US Arms sales to India is negligible and does not alter the balance of trade between the United States and India that currently favors India, India is yet to open up its markets and dismantle barriers to free trade. The United States is India's largest investment partner and donor, the amount spent on P8's, C130's and C-17's pales in comparison to US imports, investments and aid to India.



Umm no your wrong Sweden is not for opening up defence ties with China they have strong moral values and human rights come's first for them I do not need to tell you that. Israel well they are not even in EU and they have sold to China in the past but need yankee permit to do it just like the time the IAI EL/M-2075 Phalcon was blocked. As for the French well they would sell their own mothers given half the chance I expect nothing less from them but with the Libya conflict and the arab unrest defence sales to countries with poor human right's records will be a much harder sell to the mass public not to mention the track record of China in reverse engineering.


----------



## praveen

Boeing bagged 15billion dollar contracts minus MRCA thats a small amount DBC?


----------



## Abingdonboy

Yeti said:


> If the Eurofighter get's picked it will need US to give the green light due to certain american part's in the fighter just like what happened when Saudi's joined the program.



And why wouldn't US give the "green-light"? India is a stable, prosperous, friendly, democratic nation with whom the US is trying to build ever closer ties. Trade between the is already in the high tens of BILLIONS. The US isn't stupid, they need/want India as their friend, whilst India still tries to exert its non-aligned status.


----------



## Yeti

Abingdonboy said:


> And why wouldn't US give the "green-light"? India is a stable, prosperous, friendly, democratic nation with whom the US is trying to build ever closer ties. Trade between the is already in the high tens of BILLIONS. The US isn't stupid, they need/want India as their friend, whilst India still tries to exert its non-aligned status.




Do not see it being a issue but it will need congress to approve it like they did with the Saudi's

U.S. may block UK-Saudi Eurofighter deal -FT | Reuters


----------



## dbc

praveen said:


> Boeing bagged 15billion dollar contracts minus MRCA thats a small amount DBC?


 
15 Billion dollars? where did you get that from? In any case, I don't think it is enough for exclusivity especially if the caveat is for Boeing to stay out of a huge market like China.


----------



## praveen

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> 15 Billion dollars? where did you get that from? In any case, I don't think it is enough for exclusivity especially if the caveat is for Boeing to stay out of a huge market like China.


 The civilian air craft deal by air india to purchase 67 aircraft was estimated at 11-12 billion add to that the transport air craft deal is estimated at 4 billion with a c


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## praveen

clause for additional 4 aircraft .If anyone is stopping from entering the Chinese market its the US congress not india so unrelated to us


----------



## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> eft sanctions wont affect us as we will have full tot and production line in india..... Eft is not a mini mki, just by having a far smaller rcs it will have completely different role in the iaf.....
> Also we will be partners in the project getting profits from future eft sales and upgrades....it is similar to mki in the way that as partners in the program we define what upgrades we want thereby making it tailormade for indian conditions...... French supported us during sanctions but they also sell their latest tech to pakistan like agosta subs and avionics hence they are not to be trusted, they are also robbing us in mirage upgrade deal, you can expect to pay just as much or probably higher when we upgrade the rafale( and there will be a hell of a lot more rafales than mirages in our inventory)
> 
> as for the lack of a2g in eft.... It can currently provide cas and fire lgb and paveway 2/3, when we upgrade to tranche 3( if the europeans cant afford it doesnt mean we cant)it will be as good as the rafale in a2g while retaining superiority in a2a.....its aesa is better than the rafale, it has more composites than the rafale(82 vs 75), the m 88 is not reliable as was seen in the aero india, the ej 200 is highr thrust and less maintenance hungry.... Hence making the eft the wiser choice




haaa haaaa.... who told full ToT and production line will not affect the sanctions... where will you get the RAW materials?? it will still come from the parent company to manufacture the parts... Companies are not stupid enough to keep there business in risk....

First of all ToT on source code will come for simulation software and manufacturing software... like CAD which they have used to design... we will be trained on them so that we can use them for future.... so most of the avionics parts will be of useful to us and not the design software for AMCA... because stealth is a whole lot new calculations that the software will run to give the desired output.... 

for F-35 has several 100 million lines of code... it is not for the avionics alone... it includes the software they have developed similar to CAD with which the design was done... because no such software exist in the world... even DRDO has developed its own software to manufacture Carbon fibre composite and CLAW....

so these are all the softwares we get as ToT.... i really doubt we will get blue prints... and the composition of the raw materials... even DRDO will not give the IP to them.....

Forget about profits.. see whether they will be allowed to use in War.. with out which they are dumb... 

French at least has given opportunity to fight not sit quite right?... see how the F-16 of Pakistan where sitting quite... our whole Mirage squadron where operational during kargil... but only Few F-16's are operating.. because most of them are grounded that time due to sanctions...

think wise.. i was also a supporter of EFT .. but French are more reliable... just for money they work.. they dont control you... but others do........


----------



## MumbaiIndians

TOT in MMRCA contract doesn't involve background IP transfer. 

MMRCA is as worse as FGFA. Only thing where FGFA is better is that, DRDO will be JV partner. That means, it will design some parts too.

On other hand, AMCA is totally Indian and we will own all integration codes, be it missiles, engines or any upgradation. It won't involve any foreign influence or dependence. Same with LCA. Remember how fast Derby deal is finalized for LCA, while MICA for mirage is still stuck.


----------



## MumbaiIndians

Abingdonboy said:


> India is a stable, prosperous, friendly, democratic nation with whom the US is trying to build ever closer ties. Trade between the is already in the high tens of BILLIONS. The US isn't stupid, they need/want India as their friend, whilst India still tries to exert its non-aligned status.


 
That sounds like USA is begging for Indian friendship and India is not listening. Am I getting you right?


----------



## SpArK

*An Unofficial Stealth Rafale Fantasy​*
















A 3D artist based in Argentina has put out these renders of his impression of a future stealthy Rafale. As pointed out on RafaleNews, note twin fins replacing the single one and low-RCS enclosed weaopons pods replacing exposed weapons.

Livefist: An Unofficial Stealth Rafale Fantasy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Bang Galore

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Mig 21 - Red Flag 08?


 
Probably referring to Cope India 2004.
http://defensetech.org/2004/06/24/india-1-usaf-0/


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter debut at IDET in Czech Republic​*

At IDET 2011, the International Exhibition of Defence and Security Technologies
held in Brno from the 10th-13th May in the Czech Republic, Eurofighter had a
significant presence.


----------



## Jon Snow

MumbaiIndians said:


> TOT in MMRCA contract doesn't involve background IP transfer.
> 
> MMRCA is as worse as FGFA. Only thing where FGFA is better is that, DRDO will be JV partner. That means, it will design some parts too.
> 
> On other hand, AMCA is totally Indian and we will own all integration codes, be it missiles, engines or any upgradation. It won't involve any foreign influence or dependence. Same with LCA. Remember how fast Derby deal is finalized for LCA, while MICA for mirage is still stuck.


 

why keep bringing amca and lca into every thread?? in the end we need planes to shoot down the enemy, does it matter whether we made these planes or not??


----------



## MumbaiIndians

Jon Snow said:


> why keep bringing amca and lca into every thread?? in the end we need planes to shoot down the enemy, does it matter whether we made these planes or not??


 
Well, whether you like AMCA-LCA or not, but they have very much influenced the MMRCA. LCA's IOC is prime reason behind delaying of MMRCA.

IAF won't admit it in public but Kaveri's recent successful flights have increased their bargaining power in MRCA negotiations. So, we can't keep these issues seperate. There will always be scenarios where these leverage issues will crop up.

MRCA is not like buying candies from candyshop(as IAF wants it to be). There is much more to it.


----------



## 1000VA

Eurofighter Typhoon frontrunner to bag the $11 billion Indian Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contract - The Economic Times

LONDON: Eurofighter Typhoon is the front-runner for the USD 11 billion contract Indian Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal, a senior official of the BAE Systems has said indicating that if the contract goes through a part of fighter manufacturing would be off loaded to India.

"The negotiation for crucial commercial terms will begin next month," Michael Christie , Senior Vice President, BAE Systems India told a group of visiting journalists at BAE Systems' production centre at Warton, Lancashire, in UK yesterday.

India had short-listed French Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets for the project to acquire 126 fighters, while rejecting American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Sweden's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 fighters.

Dassault and Europefighter have been asked by the Ministry of Defence to extend the offer validity.

"If Typhoon is chosen, the order for the contract will be firmed up in the first quarter of next year and "delivery of aircraft will begin in 2015," Christie indicated.

According to Christie, Typhoon is a generation ahead of Chinese aircraft J10 Thunder.

"China also unveiled a proto-type of J20. But typhoon is one of the most advanced aircraft, The missile capability of the aircraft and radar capability are of a different level," he said.

It is built by a four-nation European consortium - Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain - with Britain and Germany having 33 per cent stake each.

Answering a question on indigenisation of HAWK, Christie said "The indigenisation programme is very successful".

India had contracted to receive 66 HAWK - 26 built in the UK and 42 under licence by HAL in Bengaluru under a 1 billion pound agreement and the contract was widened by New Delhi to purchase 57 more HAWKs under licence production.

Today, the Indian Tricolour is flying proudly outside the BAE Warton production centre, along with the British flag, thanks to the massive Indian order, which is keeping the company going.

Christie said that India is keen to have 70 per cent of the Typhoon to be produced in India and the 30 per cent in the UK.

BAE is keen to make India a partner of the Consortium, Christie said.

Asked whether India could export HAWK, Christie said, the existing agreement does not allow it.

"We are in discussion to find how we can do that". Christie said, adding, "Typhoon has taken us to the next generation of aircraft".

"If India were to finalise the agreement for Typhoon, it will be produced in Bengaluru. They will have to create new space for it in Bengaluru", he said.


----------



## Contract Killer

1000VA said:


> Eurofighter Typhoon frontrunner to bag the $11 billion Indian Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contract - The Economic Times
> 
> LONDON: Eurofighter Typhoon is the front-runner for the USD 11 billion contract Indian Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal, a senior official of the BAE Systems has said indicating that if the contract goes through a part of fighter manufacturing would be off loaded to India.
> 
> "The negotiation for crucial commercial terms will begin next month," Michael Christie , Senior Vice President, BAE Systems India told a group of visiting journalists at BAE Systems' production centre at Warton, Lancashire, in UK yesterday.
> 
> India had short-listed French Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets for the project to acquire 126 fighters, while rejecting American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Sweden's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 fighters.
> 
> Dassault and Europefighter have been asked by the Ministry of Defence to extend the offer validity.
> 
> "If Typhoon is chosen, the order for the contract will be firmed up in the first quarter of next year and "delivery of aircraft will begin in 2015," Christie indicated.
> 
> According to Christie, Typhoon is a generation ahead of Chinese aircraft J10 Thunder.
> 
> "China also unveiled a proto-type of J20. But typhoon is one of the most advanced aircraft, The missile capability of the aircraft and radar capability are of a different level," he said.
> 
> It is built by a four-nation European consortium - Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain - with Britain and Germany having 33 per cent stake each.
> 
> Answering a question on indigenisation of HAWK, Christie said "The indigenisation programme is very successful".
> 
> India had contracted to receive 66 HAWK - 26 built in the UK and 42 under licence by HAL in Bengaluru under a 1 billion pound agreement and the contract was widened by New Delhi to purchase 57 more HAWKs under licence production.
> 
> Today, the Indian Tricolour is flying proudly outside the BAE Warton production centre, along with the British flag, thanks to the massive Indian order, which is keeping the company going.
> 
> Christie said that India is keen to have 70 per cent of the Typhoon to be produced in India and the 30 per cent in the UK.
> 
> BAE is keen to make India a partner of the Consortium, Christie said.
> 
> Asked whether India could export HAWK, Christie said, the existing agreement does not allow it.
> 
> "We are in discussion to find how we can do that". Christie said, adding, "Typhoon has taken us to the next generation of aircraft".
> 
> "If India were to finalise the agreement for Typhoon, it will be produced in Bengaluru. They will have to create new space for it in Bengaluru", he said.


 
EFT.................. Jai ho.


----------



## DelhiDareDevil

For me it's all about shooting Pakistan jets that have nuke missiles before they enter India airspace and for that I chose EF as it's better in A2A combat.


----------



## SpArK

DelhiDareDevil said:


> For me it's all about shooting Pakistan jets that have nuke missiles before they enter India airspace and for that I chose EF as it's better in A2A combat.


 
Isnt MKI's with adder, archer and novator better suited for that role?


----------



## luckyyy

1000VA said:


> LONDON: Eurofighter Typhoon is the front-runner for the USD 11 billion contract Indian Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal, a senior official of the BAE Systems has said indicating that *if the contract goes through a part of fighter manufacturing would be off loaded to India.
> 
> Christie said that India is keen to have 70 per cent of the Typhoon to be produced in India and the 30 per cent in the UK.
> 
> BAE is keen to make India a partner of the Consortium, Christie said.*
> .


 
it says all....


----------



## Mr.Ryu

Good for India finish the deal already please, though i would miss the FRENCH they are pretty awesome. But where do EF defeat DR ? There are not much difference in capability i hope both have their fare share of advantage but price and TT will pay a major role, This TT is where India will really gain more.


----------



## SpArK

> It has also been speculated that Dassault had been using the Mirage upgrade as leverage once the MMRCA contract was drawing to a close



Mirage-2000 deal may get government nod - The Economic Times


----------



## indian dream

It might be euro fighter..

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


----------



## sancho

DelhiDareDevil said:


> For me it's all about shooting Pakistan jets that have nuke missiles before they enter India airspace and for that I chose EF as it's better in A2A combat.


 

Which will be difficult when most of them are stationed as planed at the north eastern borders. Let alone that there is hardly a reason why Rafale would not be able to shoot these fighters down. 




luckyyy said:


> it says all....


Not all, but something. That they want to reduce the production costs by outsourcing to India, which is nothing special, because any vendor has offered that. The 70% btw is aimed on the licence production of the Indian order and not what ammount for foreign orders would be produced in India, which is a good ammount, but more interesting would be, when this ammount is achieved, because that won't be the case from fighter no 1.
There were similar issues in the competition in Brazil, where Saab was only able to divert major ammounts of the production by the end of the order of 36 fighters and that although Brazilian industry is said to get participation in the Gripen NG development. Dassault was ahead in that area, while Boeing possibly be far behind these Europeans, because they will produce more parts in the US.


----------



## sancho

> *MMRCA, French ambassador interview*
> 
> May 18th, the Hindu is publishing an Interview of Jerome Bonnafont, French Ambassador in India. The French public servant's answers to the Indian Journalist about the ongoing MMRCA contest are very elusive and in line with the usual French behaviour about the India competition for 3 years : The less we talk, the better it is.
> 
> 
> *Indu :* In the joint statement, it was mentioned that the contract for the much-delayed upgrade of the Indian Air Force's Mirage-2000 aircraft would be inked soon. It's five months since.
> 
> 
> *J.B :* Commercial negotiations are always long; there are so many things to agree upon. It's very complex. It has to go through many processes, so it takes time. But we're hopeful it'll be completed soon.
> 
> 
> *Indu :* In a major step in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) procurement process, India has shortlisted from six contenders the French Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, asking them to renew their commercial bids. The process has had many twists and turns from the time the Request for Proposal went out with speculative stories doing the rounds, MMRCA files going for jaunts and the like. How do you view the latest development?
> 
> 
> *J.B :* At this stage, I'll be extremely sober and quick in my answer. Rafale is an exceptional plane which is in operation in many significant fields of operation showing its performance there. We're very satisfied that it is allowed to continue in the race. The French government is giving 100 per cent support to Dassault and for the continuation of its discussions with the Government of India.
> 
> 
> *Indu :* Is there a Navy angle to the MMRCA competition? While Rafale boasts a naval variant, the Typhoon naval version is under development. Would there be a French pitch if the Indian Navy sought to buy a new carrier-borne fighter?
> 
> 
> *J.B :* I'm not going to elaborate on that.




*Comment of the blogger:*



> This last cursory reply alone tells a lot about how cautious (paranoiac ?) the French are regarding the MMRCA. *Yet, Everybody will have understood that the "Navy angle of the MMRCA" will most likely play a significant role in the indian final choice. Similarly, EADS strong advertising for its Typhoon N at the last aero India air show was certainly not innocent..*.



Rafale News: MMRCA, French ambassador interview


----------



## luckyyy

* the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) agreed to the French proposal to allow only French missiles on the upgraded Mirage aircraft,* ruling out a proposal to arm the planes with Israeli missiles, said a Defence Ministry source.
India OKs $2.1B Upgrade for 51 Mirage Aircraft - Defense News

that's another downgrade for rafale ...


----------



## dbc

luckyyy said:


> * the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) agreed to the French proposal to allow only French missiles on the upgraded Mirage aircraft,* ruling out a proposal to arm the planes with Israeli missiles, said a Defence Ministry source.
> India OKs $2.1B Upgrade for 51 Mirage Aircraft - Defense News
> 
> that's another downgrade for rafale ...



Nice... respect to Dassault


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> * the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) agreed to the French proposal to allow only French missiles on the upgraded Mirage aircraft,* ruling out a proposal to arm the planes with Israeli missiles, said a Defence Ministry source.
> India OKs $2.1B Upgrade for 51 Mirage Aircraft - Defense News
> 
> that's another downgrade for rafale ...


 
Because? That's actually is good for Rafale, because of more weapon commonality.


----------



## Machoman

DelhiDareDevil said:


> For me it's all about shooting Pakistan jets that have nuke missiles before they enter India airspace and for that I chose EF as it's better in A2A combat.


 
who said that we going to send them by airplane???....................lol


----------



## angeldemon_007

I hope Rafale is selected...EF is alreaddy way too expensive, plus we need a separate infrastructure and training and we also have no idea how expensive will be to maintain this european fighter...
On the other hand Rafale because of its close proximity to mirage is cheaper and need less investment on infrastructure and training and we know how to deal with with French....


----------



## Invincible INDIAN

I have a feel like EF will be the winner as french has already got an order for 6 submarines and mirage upgrades.
Same as US will be getting an order of another 5-7 C17. 

So, this one will be for Europe.


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Because? That's actually is good for Rafale, because of more weapon commonality.


 
rafale has not yet selected , but navy using isreali derby and LCA also has it....derby bring more weapon commonality has it put on mirage..


----------



## sudhir007

India Accelerates Fighter Deal | AVIATION WEEK

Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony says Indias much-anticipated choice in its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program could occur before the end of March 2012.

India wants to expedite the deal in part because Pakistan is expecting a speedy delivery of 50 JF-17 aircraft, which originally were to be spread out over two years, according to defense ministry officials.

Pakistani Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar has been quoted saying that his country is seeking delivery within six months of the JF-17 Thunder single-engine multirole fighters, which were developed by China and Pakistan.

A Pakistan air force spokesman says the first batch of these aircraft will be handed over to Islamabad within weeks. The agreement to expedite the delivery came as Pakistans prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, held talks in Beijing on May 19. 

Antony has expressed discomfort over this development. It is a matter of serious concern for us. The main thing is, we have to increase our capability  that is the only answer, he says.

Last month, India short-listed the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale for the estimated $11 billion contract to provide 126 fighter jets (Aerospace DAILY, April 28). India rejected Boeings F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martins F-16. Russias MiG-35 and Saabs Gripen also were shut out.

The Indian air force is buying the MMRCA to replace its aging Soviet-era MiG-21 fighters, which date back to the 1960s.

The negotiation for crucial commercial terms will begin next month, says Michael Christie, senior vice president at BAE Systems India. BAE is part of the Eurofighter consortium, along with Alenia Aeronautica and EADS.

The first 18 jets will be bought in fly-away condition, and the remainder will be produced under license with a selected vendor in India.

According to sources close to the project, the government has initiated negotiations with the bidders on offset requirements. India has fixed offset obligations at 50%, requiring that half of the deals worth be reinvested in Indian industry.


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## sancho

Invincible INDIAN said:


> I have a feel like EF will be the winner as french has already got an order for 6 submarines and mirage upgrades.
> Same as US will be getting an order of another 5-7 C17.
> 
> So, this one will be for Europe.



 Last time I checked, France was part of Europe as well and we were buying quit some stuff from UK, GER and ITA as well.




luckyyy said:


> rafale has not yet selected , but navy using isreali derby and LCA also has it....derby bring more weapon commonality has it put on mirage..


 
But why is the selection of MICA a downer for Rafale?


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## sancho

*Interesting rumors from France:*



> *UAE, Rafale deal very close to be signed*
> 
> May 20th, 05:00 PM, French President Nicolas Sarkozy has met Abou Dabi crown Prince Mohamed Bin ZAYED AL NAHYAN. Rumors tell that the final agreement about the purchase by the UAE of 60 Rafale fighter jets could have been reached during the meeting. *If true, the contract could be inked in a couple of weeks, possibly during the opening of the 49th Paris air show which will start on June 20th.*



Rafale News: UAE, Rafale deal very close to be signed




> *UAE, The technical package is settled*
> 
> This has been confirmed by a reliable source : Both Emirati and French negociators have agreed on what the UAE Rafale will be. *In other words, all the requests made by the UAE have been met and the technical package of their future Rafale is now setlled. *
> 
> On the financial front, We have learnt that the Dassault proposal has been validated by the French presidency and confirmed to the Crown Prince Mohamed Bin ZAYED AL NAHYAN last Friday. *The time for price negociations has thus begun between the two countries.*
> 
> Two point are worth noting in this affair :
> 
> *First, the UAE want the Rafale since the begining because it ensures their independence of action unlike the US proposals. The UAE don't want to become a simple military tool in the hands of the White House as the Saudi are.*
> Secondly, The Libyan campaign has been a formidale "live" demonstration that the Rafale strategic capabilities are very efficient and 100% independent from US supplies in all missions (A2A, A2G, Recce, stand off strike...)



Rafale News: UAE, The technical package is settled


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## GORKHALI



Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

> *In the press, Latinaero articles about Rafale and AASM Engagement over Libya*
> 
> 
> Latinaero has released a preview of its first issue which should be available next June. It can be downloaded directly on their web site (or here as a backup). The first part of an article about the Rafale at war in Libya (written by defrense journalist Jean-Michel Guhl), can be read in this issue (mainly about AASM bombs)
> 
> Here are very interesting extracts about the AASM capabilities (for the record) :
> 
> [...] The greatest operational value of the AASM is that it is a true stand-off weapon, which means it can be fired safely from outside the range of existing
> enemy short and medium range air defence systems, whether at high or low
> altitude. According to Lieutenant General Patrick Chareix, of the French Air Force
> CDAOA staff, this fact was proven on several occasions *during the initial phase of the interdiction campaign over Libya where the Rafales operated without the need of any dedicated SEAD asset* and
> to the big surprise of the USAF theatre commander on one specific action against a Libyan SA-3 Goa SAM site in March 2011!.
> 
> Its solid rocket propulsion system gives the AASM a range of over 50 km when fired from high altitude, and
> over 15 km for low-altitude firing. In the latter case, the AASM can also climb over its release point to avoid difficult terrain, while providing a near vertical terminal trajectory for better final precision.
> 
> These characteristics are awsome, as most of the time, the AASM strikes come as a full surprise for an observer on the ground, for the simple reason that the launch aircraft is unseen and unheard even more when the launch aircraft is a Rafale, thanks to its stealthy characteristics.
> 
> Quite a surprising and positive point is the fact that the AASM can be fired off-axis in relation to the aircrafts flight path, thus optimizing its extended range and enabling it to hit distant targets right behind the aircraft something totally impossible for a conventional laser-guided bomb.
> From the operational standpoint, this enables the aircraft to immediately engage its target, without having to manoeuvre to place the launching aircraft in position, as would be required for other existing laser or GPS-guided tactical weapons.
> 
> *A very valuable tactical advantage is also that the AASM allows a single aircraft to engage up to six targets simultaneously !* For example one Rafale fighter fitted with two triple underwing Rafaut hard-points as was the case during Opération Harmattan over Libya can loiter and attack successively or in a single action up to six targets of different nature located in opposing directions. For that, the Rafale pilot (or navigator in the two-seat models) can use target coordinates previously programmed on the ground during mission briefing, or even in flight at the last minute in the case of time-sensitive targets ! This in-flight reprogramming capability relies on new coordinates either sourced through the Rafales tactical data link terminal (NATO L-16) or obtained via the laser rangemeter of a Damoclès targeting pod.
> [...]
> 
> So, Jean-Michel Guhl confirm, once and for all, in this article that the AASM can be launch at a target behind the aircraft, and so, apparently even at low altitude (see the AASM lauch domain drawing above). Moreover, the Rafale/AASM combo can perform a 180° off boresight attack in a multarget scenario which is quite amazing



Rafale News: In the press, Latinaero articles about Rafale and AASM Engagement over Libya


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## saumyasupratik

@Sancho If only they had a more higher resolution image for this.It shows Brimstones as well, are they compatible with the Rafale?What missile is that between the ASMP and MICA IR?


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## jha

For RAFALE Fans ....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## sancho

saumyasupratik said:


> @Sancho If only they had a more higher resolution image for this.It shows Brimstones as well, are they compatible with the Rafale?What missile is that between the ASMP and MICA IR?


 
Hi, sadly no high resolution pic is available yet, but you are right there are Brimstone missiles. Brimstone is offered by MBDA and can be integrated into Rafale, or Mirage as well, infact it seems the French forces shows interest in the weapon, since they saw it in Libya used by RAF Tornados. The French are also developing a laser guided rocket pod for CAS, that you can see at the end of the pic, infront of the twin gun pod.

It's not a missile, but an ACMI pod (Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation) for training, or exercises:







More about it here:

defence.professionals | defpro.com


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## jha

@Sancho..

Any chance of us getting a look at ASMP ..? That would be awesome..If France is willing to share this with us ( offcourse under the table ). Then I will support RAFALE..


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## kingdurgaking

^^^ we are getting everything ... except the blue print...


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## razgriz19

PANDORA said:


>


 
rafale is definetly a bomb truck!


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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^ we are getting everything ... except the blue print...


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## rickshaw driver

jha said:


> @Sancho..
> 
> Any chance of us getting a look at ASMP ..? That would be awesome..If France is willing to share this with us ( offcourse under the table ). Then I will support RAFALE..


 
brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon


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## jha

rickshaw driver said:


> brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon


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## Mr.Ryu

rickshaw driver said:


> brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon



Security Council did not veto NUCLEAR DEAL but *Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india* then ISRO comes to produce tube and tyre   
YOU ARE THE BEST EVER DEFENSE ANALYSIST keep it up


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## sancho

jha said:


> @Sancho..
> 
> Any chance of us getting a look at ASMP ..? That would be awesome..If France is willing to share this with us ( offcourse under the table ). Then I will support RAFALE..


 
Under the table who knows? 




razgriz19 said:


> rafale is definetly a bomb truck!


 
With excellent A2A capabilities!


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## Dharmachakra

Isn`t Rafale a confirmed winner? ( atleast from the unofficial news)

Euro consortium has nothing to offer compared to what French can offer. The second phase of the shortlist is totally political and little or less economical. If french can help with the design of reactor for nuke AC and offer more TOT on DE subs ,SRSAM and possible know how with thier 1600MW reactors,.........
Euro consortium has got nothing other than a couple of bankrupted economies and countries who offer rattle about human rights voilations.


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## typhoon77

> Euro consortium has nothing to offer compared to what French can offer. The second phase of the shortlist is totally political and little or less economical. If french can help with the design of reactor for nuke AC and offer more TOT on DE subs ,SRSAM and possible know how with thier 1600MW reactors,.........
> Euro consortium has got nothing other than a couple of bankrupted economies and countries who offer rattle about human rights voilations.


 You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. If this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.


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## Dharmachakra

typhoon77 said:


> You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. If this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.



Here we are dealing with French gov which offered thier total support to Dassault for this multi-billion dollar deal. Instead of rattling, I would also like you to take note of numerous trips of french ambassadors to south block than compared to officals from Dassault itself.
Going with Rafale is a winners choise while going for typhoon is a liability which is still to be evolved interms of its muti-role capabilitites. Not even the partner nations are sure about how many fighters they will induct. The graph is taking a down trend.
And regarding the TOT from Cassidian, its a multi-national partnered company.Who know which nation will throw a spanner in the middle of the deal?
Its as simple as 7+2=9 that a single national company has more stability and can fulfill more demands than compared to a multi-national consortium.
When we are talking about a fighter that has to serve IAF for the next 30-35 yrs, we dont take fanboy opinions.
Cassidian says: If Typhoon wins, part of the manufacturing will be shifted to India. It means the four nations has to trim their share.Also India wont be manufacturing the complete AC. It still has to import some parts from the 4 nations.
Dassault Says: India will be able to manufacture everything itslef.

When we are spending 12 billion now for 126 and a high possibility for 74 more nearly 20 billion total value for upright purchases and another 20 billion in terms of upgrades ,we will be looking to leverage the deal but certainly not be looking to be a part of liabilitites .

A deal that is worth nearly 40 billion for the next 20 years is dealt with in such a way GOF will be care taker of the agreement. 
It is also as simple as when MOD whipped at the GOF for the delays in scorpene and not at DCNS.


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## SpArK




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## redrj

I think EF will get it eventually. If It's EF which get selected, then with in a decade we will have some serious heavy weights in our air force(su30 MKI, EF and PAK FA)


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## Ammyy

rickshaw driver said:


> brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon


 
Bhai mere raat me kitni pee thee ????


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## angeldemon_007

> I think EF will get it eventually. If It's EF which get selected, then with in a decade we will have some serious heavy weights in our air force(su30 MKI, EF and PAK FA)


Rafale is much better than EF atleast right now...by 2015-16 EF might be better but who will wait till then ? Also if would hate to see our EF (if we purchase them) facing PAF's Rafale which lets face it if we won't chose Pakistan will try to purchase and they have already shown interest but MMRCA is stopping the French while on the other hand if we purchase Rafale, well lets face it Pakistan cannot afford EF...


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## rickshaw driver

Dharmachakra said:


> Here we are dealing with French gov which offered thier total support to Dassault for this multi-billion dollar deal. Instead of rattling, I would also like you to take note of numerous trips of french ambassadors to south block than compared to officals from Dassault itself.
> Going with Rafale is a winners choise while going for typhoon is a liability which is still to be evolved interms of its muti-role capabilitites. Not even the partner nations are sure about how many fighters they will induct. The graph is taking a down trend.
> And regarding the TOT from Cassidian, its a multi-national partnered company.Who know which nation will throw a spanner in the middle of the deal?
> Its as simple as 7+2=9 that a single national company has more stability and can fulfill more demands than compared to a multi-national consortium.
> When we are talking about a fighter that has to serve IAF for the next 30-35 yrs, we dont take fanboy opinions.
> Cassidian says: If Typhoon wins, part of the manufacturing will be shifted to India. It means the four nations has to trim their share.Also India wont be manufacturing the complete AC. It still has to import some parts from the 4 nations.
> Dassault Says: India will be able to manufacture everything itslef.
> 
> When we are spending 12 billion now for 126 and a high possibility for 74 more nearly 20 billion total value for upright purchases and another 20 billion in terms of upgrades ,we will be looking to leverage the deal but certainly not be looking to be a part of liabilitites .
> 
> A deal that is worth nearly 40 billion for the next 20 years is dealt with in such a way GOF will be care taker of the agreement.
> It is also as simple as when MOD whipped at the GOF for the delays in scorpene and not at DCNS.


 
brother dont u think instead of spending 40 billion in the next 20 years we should build and establish our own DCN industry....HAL and ISRO can team up with IPL to produce best MBT's.....considering the Arjun project is going down the drain....Congress is the real player here....If BGP can give its support to IPL for the next season then i am sure we will be buying typhoon instead of Rafale cause u know Tejas mk-II would be better than Rafale in terms of speed and fuel efficieny....TATA can provide blueprints for the airframe of Tejas mk-II once VK.Singh has received his share of kick-backs and foreign tours...let keep our fingers crossed cause seen we will see the best defence deal ever in our history


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## sancho

typhoon77 said:


> You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. I*f this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile*, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.


 
I wouldn't bet on that, because the industrial part is offered from consortiums on both sides! EF was developed by a consortium of different companies, with BAE, EADS and Alenia as the leaders, but EADS is this case is only the German and Spanish part, while the French part (which is equal to the German) is not included. Any offset offer from EADS regarding other products that EF and it's techs, will require French approval as well, especially because the French government holds shares themselfs, while the German part is privat only. It is even more likely that they will compromise by agreeing to offer the same products from EADS, be it for EF, or Rafale, because they wouldn't block own sales.
Rafale on the other side was developed by Dassault, but is offered, by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and Snecma/Safran group and these companies already has some very interesting cooperations in India (Thales JVs with Samtel and possibly with LRDE on Tejas AESA, Turbomecca (also Safran group) with HAL on Shakti engine, Snecma possibly with the Kaveri engine, Eurocopter and HAL for Cheetak, Cheetal, Dhuv, French MBDA for Maitri SAM...
I do belive that the EF consortium can offer more offsets, at least that is also known from the Swiss competition, but the good experience and already available cooperations with French industry can't be underestimated.


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## rickshaw driver

sancho said:


> I wouldn't bet on that, because the industrial part is offered from consortiums on both sides! EF was developed by a consortium of different companies, with BAE, EADS and Alenia as the leaders, but EADS is this case is only the German and Spanish part, while the French part (which is equal to the German) is not included. Any offset offer from EADS regarding other products that EF and it's techs, will require French approval as well, especially because the French government holds shares themselfs, while the German part is privat only. It is even more likely that they will compromise by agreeing to offer the same products from EADS, be it for EF, or Rafale, because they wouldn't block own sales.
> Rafale on the other side was developed by Dassault, but is offered, by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and Snecma/Safran group and these companies already has some very interesting cooperations in India (Thales JVs with Samtel and possibly with LRDE on Tejas AESA, Turbomecca (also Safran group) with HAL on Shakti engine, Snecma possibly with the Kaveri engine, Eurocopter and HAL for Cheetak, Cheetal, Dhuv, French MBDA for Maitri SAM...
> I do belive that the EF consortium can offer more offsets, at least that is also known from the Swiss competition, but the good experience and already available cooperations with French industry can't be underestimated.


 
brother the consortium issued by HAL and Bajaj Autos was much better than consortiums offered by German and Spanish companies....all the manuals were written in hindi....as far as the Shakti engine for Tejas mk-II is concerned TATA is offering HAL cheap pistons and gas kits so i think we should go for our home-made stuff....AESA radar is good but much better than it is our very own Kumar radar that is currently being developed by ISRO and NSG and is in initial stages of development.Problem with Kevari engine is that that we are still unable to decide how many fins will its engine have?I think we should go for Cheetal for Maitri SAM and ISRO for Cheetak.Swiss are pretty good at making consortiums and banks but i think we much better in making Tejas and thats what matters the most


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## ARCHON




----------



## AsianLion

India will break the streak and it will help it too.................

*The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
*
_*The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad *_

By Carol Matlack 

The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion&#8212;a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision. 

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs&#8212;while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale. 

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank. 

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says. 

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits. 

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts. 

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see." 

*The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price. *

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...=rss_topStories


----------



## GORKHALI

AsianUnion said:


> India will break the streak and it will help it too.................
> 
> *The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
> *
> _*The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad *_
> 
> By Carol Matlack
> 
> The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion&#8212;a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.
> 
> The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs&#8212;while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.
> 
> Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.
> 
> Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.
> 
> The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.
> 
> Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.
> 
> The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."
> 
> *The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price. *
> 
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...=rss_topStories


 
2years old article ?????


----------



## AsianLion

PANDORA said:


> 2years old article ?????


The truth about French customers are all in front of you till today. How many ? NIL.

India can break the no-selling streak....




AsianUnion said:


> India will break the streak and it will help it too.................
> 
> *The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
> *
> _*The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad *_
> 
> By Carol Matlack
> 
> The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion&#8212;a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.
> 
> The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs&#8212;while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.
> 
> Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.
> 
> Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.
> 
> The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.
> 
> Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.
> 
> The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."
> 
> *The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price. *
> 
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...=rss_topStories


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## Hindustani

Wait I'm guessing I've missed a lot... 

India chose Rafale?


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## AsianLion

Hindustani said:


> Wait I'm guessing I've missed a lot...
> 
> India chose Rafale?



Yes it did, Rafale and Eurofighter! Both options on table.


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## Hindustani

AsianUnion said:


> Yes it did, Rafale and Eurofighter! Both options on table.


 
Oh nvm.. I thought India finally came to a conclusion with one of the fighters.. 

Thanks though


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## AsianLion

PANDORA said:


> 2years old article ?????


Second confirmation for the curious: (Jan 2011 article)

The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek


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## Roybot

^^ Why are you posting that article everywhere?

Whats the point you are trying to make? Are you trying to say that its not good enough so no one wants to buy it?


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## sancho

AsianUnion said:


> The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.


 
To understand that thos conclusion is totally bogus, you just have to see the fact that EF develoment costs, although shared by 4 countries are higher and didn't helped to seal credible exports as well! The only 2 export countries are Austria and Saudi Arabia, which both wasn't real competitions and while there are still bribery allegations against the deal in Austria, the Saudi deal was clearly based on political advantages from UK. In real competitions, the MMRCA is the first competition where the EF was shortlisted, while Rafale has made it everytime it was fielded in a competition, which tells us something about the technical benefits.
However, the final decision is always depending on political, or strategic reasons, besides cost of course and that is where the Rafale so far had no chance against the US and their fighters!

You can say Rafale failed to get an export deal so far, but you also have to say that it proved to be technically better and more mature that EF, that's why it was always one of the leading contenders, while EF was out way earlier.
So the decision to go alone for Rafale, has no meaning here and is infact often an advantage, because it is the only real indipendent choice.


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## sancho

*RAFALE - Multi role master ! ! !*

More here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-341.html#post1781913


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## AsianLion

Also notice:


> But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and *Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale*.


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## majesticpankaj

AsianUnion said:


> Also notice:


 
congrats.... good for pakistan..

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## Storm Force

Cant wait to see either Typhoon or Rafael in indian colours along side the formidable su30mki

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## praveen007

friends here is a picture which says a thousand words.
*How Eurofighter flaunts its status "Indian MMRCA short listed" .*
Indicated by yellow arrow.


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## typhoon77

> But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.


 
The Rafale lost in South Korea and Singapore due to politics. All you have to do is read up on the competitions and you would know that. The Rafale lost in Morocco b/c of the french's inability to market the plane properly. They wanted to tie the purchase with a frigates and tanks i believe, something that Morocco didn't want. Morocco actually wanted the Rafale, they didn't want a huge packaged deal the french were offering.


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know whether whichever ac is picked will come with HMDS as STANDARD? Is this mandatory as per IAF RFI requirements?

Effectively all fighters in the IAF will integrate such a system in the next 2-5 yrs (most TOPSIGHT-I) 

However I do not know if either fighter has offered such tech as STANDARD or as an OPTION? I know a so called "starwars" helmet was offered as an option with EFT?

Below are current helmets for both ac, not HMDS, have not seen either ac serving with HMDS as standard in any AF yet:
Rafale





EFT





note what I want to know will ALL (including first batch delivered from producer ~2014 come with HMDS) as standard?


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## farhan_9909

welli want to increase my posts

can any body do debate with me about these two fighters?

which 1 is best and why?

can any body tell me about the advantage of spectra and does EF has something similr to Spectra?


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## jha

farhan_9909 said:


> welli want to increase my posts
> 
> can any body do debate with me about these two fighters?
> 
> which 1 is best and why?
> 
> can any body tell me about the advantage of spectra and does EF has something similr to Spectra?


 
Spectra supposedly scores over DASS ( for EFT ) in terms of sensor fusion and the fact that the system is not fully developed for EFT.. Work is still on .. Once it is developed then there is very high probability of it bettering SPECTRA..


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## KEETARP

SPECTRA is highly overrated . 

When it comes to core ACM , rafale can neither outclimb nor outrun PLA's flankers . 
Similarly it cannot out-maneuver flanker . 

If air-force wants to place MRCA on Eastern border , better get a aircraft that has power and agility to match mighty flankers . And that to good 500 of them .


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## RazorMC

The Sukhois are air-superiority fighters while the Rafale is multi-role. And India has its own fleet of Sukhois to counter others.
A comparison is not fair to either.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> note what I want to know will ALL (including first batch delivered from producer ~2014 come with HMDS) as standard?


 
It is very likely that IAF wants HMS, because they have long experience with it at Russian fighters and add it to any new, or upgraded fighter as well. EF has HMS now, Rafale don't. The French tested some prototypes of the Topsight (but way more futuristic) in the early stages, later there were also a competition by Thales and Sagem to develop one, where the latter was chosen but not integrated. French pilots (especially the navy pilots), seems not to like it so far because of the weight, but it mainly was not integrated to save money for other upgrades.
So if IAF wants it, they either have to integrate the Topsight I, or fund the Sagem version, which should be prefered by Dassault and French forces as well.

Here are some pics of the Topsight HMS during trials:


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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> welli want to increase my posts
> 
> can any body do debate with me about these two fighters?
> 
> which 1 is best and why?
> 
> can any body tell me about the advantage of spectra and does EF has something similr to Spectra?


 

It's too late over here, so maybe this helps you for now to get a hint of the advantages Rafale offers:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-102.html#post1756704




jha said:


> Spectra supposedly scores over DASS ( for EFT ) in terms of sensor fusion and the fact that the system is not fully developed for EFT.. Work is still on .. Once it is developed then there is very high probability of it bettering SPECTRA..


 
DASS is fully developed, but unlike SPECTRA (or like the whole story between EF and Rafale), the one will be constantly upgraded, the other not. That's why the EF partners simply procured the same DASS that is available for their older versions, while the French with already more advanced SPECTRA keeps on upgrading the System and why the F3+ on offer in MMRCA with DDM NG for example.


Btw, Rafale is even increasing the edge to EF on the weapon side:



> Although French fighters have been dropping concrete bombs (using a Paveway III guidance kit) in Libya, military officials want a more effective system. *One topic of discussion is the purchase of Dual-Mode Brimstones from MBDA, although program officials note a final decision has not been taken. The Rafale would likely feature a basic integration of the weapon to speed fielding.*



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-342.html#post1790977


And look what we have here:






New A2A config with METEOR and MICA EM on the external wingstations! Seems like they integrating not only the new missile, but the increasing the capacity as well (8 x AAMs + 3 x fuel tanks at max) Might have something to do with the UAE deal as well, because they wanted this config.


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## sancho

*More interesting news as well:*



> *Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week*
> 
> *New Delhi: Commercial bids for India&#8217;s $10.5-billion order for 126 fighter planes are expected to be opened next week, highly placed sourced told FE.* There are two finalists in the race for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, often described as the mother of all defence deals: Eurofighter Typhoon from Europe&#8217;s EADS-led consortium and Rafale from Dassault Aviation of France.
> 
> The opening of the commercial bids would lift the suspense on the lowest bidder, paving the way for commercial negotiations. Defence officials from France and Germany are currently touring India to promote their offerings, leaving no stone unturned to swing the deal in their favour.
> 
> *Indian Air Force (IAF) officials are believed to be rooting for the Rafale, which could come across as the lowest bidder owing to its low lifecycle cost. *However, Eurofighter&#8217;s offer to set up a production line in India could give it some leverage...
> 
> ...Briefing media persons ahead of German chancellor Angela Merkel&#8217;s visit next week, German ambassador Thomas Matussek said: &#8220;The Typhoon represents the most advanced and cost-efficient machines. During her talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the chancellor will express satisfaction about the transparency and the orderly manner in which the whole process of selection took place.&#8221;
> 
> Outlining details of the industrial partnership offer to integrate India as a partner in the Eurofighter programme, Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH, during his recent India visit told FE: &#8220;*Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc.*&#8221;...



Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week


As I said, the Rafale is the best suiting for our forces (IAF, IN, SFC), while the biggest advantage of the EF is not the fighter, but the industrial offer that comes along with it!

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## axisofevil

sancho said:


> *More interesting news as well:*
> 
> 
> 
> Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week
> 
> 
> As I said, the Rafale is the best suiting for our forces (IAF, IN, SFC), while the biggest advantage of the EF is not the fighter, but the industrial offer that comes along with it!


 


That being said our domestic industry is our NUMBER ONE PRIORITY and as a result the industrial offer more than enough outweighs the benefits of Rafale. EFT is a very close 2nd IF NOT TIE to Rafale according to some of you who are blind.... as the EFT program matures we get to learn and incorporate such feeatures into our fighters. Think morons........


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I hope India takes their time to test out the two remaining planes - and best of luck to them once they select the winner in 2014

The helmets look awesome too 

Just please don't get addicted to french , they have a habbit of shifting ties for highest bidder


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## luckyyy

rafale has no growth potential as it never going to get upgraded on cost front...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ma-upgrade-its-mirage-fleet-buy-new-jets.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ook-elsewhere-chopper-engine.html#post1793639


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## RazorMC

Rafale is offering ToT and the radar source. What does India want with EF anymoe?


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## Paan Singh

RazorMC said:


> Rafale is offering ToT and the radar source. What does India want with EF anymoe?


 
there shud be few dollars for the europeans also............i will prefer to purchase 200 fighters with split orders..


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## sancho

Prism said:


> there shud be few dollars for the europeans also............i will prefer to purchase 200 fighters with split orders..


 
Then you split the benefits of ToT, offsets and politics in half as well, besides increase the costs dramatically. The competition gets so much attention exactly because IAF wants the order from a single vendor only and it is likely to be expanded as well. The benefit for the vendor that wins is way beyond the $12 billions that the MMRCA is expected to costs directly, because there will be additional deals for spares, weapons, logistics, upgrades...
That's why all vendors and countries were wanted this deal, not to mention that for most of the vendors it would be a life saver as well (F16, Gripen, Mig 35, EF), because they don't have other orders at the moment. 

I still hope for Rafale, with a fast induction of 2 - 3 squads directly from France and the rest produced under licence in India with Kaveri - Snecma engine. Would be the best solution for our forces and industry!


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## wind

keeping Rafale vs EF aside. Choosing Typoon will increase India's leverage in Europe to great extent.


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## sancho

> *Eyeing lucrative IAF jet deal, France, Germany spar in public*
> 
> The scene may heat up further, as German Chancellor comes to India next week
> 
> 
> The Germans and the French may have relinquished battlefield animosity long ago, but on Friday they regaled the media in New Delhi with their old ways. The German and French diplomats took swipe at each other while promising moon to India. All this effort was worth US$12 billion for a deal for 126 multi-role fighter jets that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to buy. French company Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale and the German-led European consortium EADS&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted by India, while rejecting American, Swedish and Russian variants...
> 
> ...The German envoy said that the rules of engagement did make his country and his partners different. &#8220;The purchase of defence and security-related equipment requires an end-user certificate. All over the world, exporters insist on this. But, we will not insist on monitoring and on-spot inspections. For example, we have sold you communication equipment. That distances us from our competitors,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Admitting that the deal has political overtones, the ambassador was candid enough to admit the countries associated with Eurofighter consider it a very important political partnership. &#8220;We are here also taking about political relationships with four major NATO countries and four major European countries. India will definitely benefit,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It is not only technology but political partnership as well you get when you need it the most,&#8221; he added.
> 
> Further, he said that the Eurofighter was ready to share technology with India to a degree nobody has so far offered. &#8220;We are optimistic as far as the future possibilities not just for India but whole of Asian market and beyond is concerned,&#8221; said the German ambassador.
> 
> In order to beat the French, the European defence giant is transferring some of its operations to India. The EADS has already set up a military research and development centre in Bengaluru.
> 
> Unlike the Americans, the Europeans are not insisting on signing a Logistics Supply Agreement (LSA) and a Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA). The LSA allows foreign warships, military aircraft and personnel to access Indian military bases for re-fuelling, rest and recuperation and turnover on a reciprocal basis. The CISMOA is designed to ensure that the equipment transferred to the Indian armed forces are encrypted, secure and compatible with the US military systems...



Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

Compared to the US offers, these points are true and very interesting for sure, but they are not in the competition anymore and France offers no restriction and much ToT as well and the EADS R&D center in Bengaluru can't beat the French, because they are involved in EADS as well. But even they know that the only way to win the deal for them is by offereing ToT, industrial and political advantages, because the fighter is less capable than the French counterpart. Not to mention that the options for new orders of the more expensive EF are pretty low at the moment, while Rafales chances in India, UAE, Brazil and Swiss are still very strong.


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## IND151

rickshaw driver said:


> brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon


 
amazing internet..... amazing idiot.....

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## RazorMC

Prism said:


> there shud be few dollars for the europeans also............i will prefer to purchase 200 fighters with split orders..


 
Then the IAF will be operating too many different aircraft to be really efficient and the split will reduce the offers on the table since both corps. know they are both getting orders anyways.
From a technical POV, the EF does not meet the multi-role requirement set by IAF. It is slightly better for A2A and even then the Rafale's lower RCS makes it more desirable for A2A combat.


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## Storm Force

RAZOR you are bang on with your comments.

There are too many combat types should be no more than 3 

AND RAFALE ticks all the boxes 

IAF should get on with it


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## sancho

*Rafale weapon configs, this time in high resolution:*








http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1882/rafaleposter.jpg

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## WARRANT

domain-b.com : Commercial bids for MMRCA tender to open next week?

New Delhi: With the French defence minister already in Delhi and German chancellor Angel Merkel due to arrive for a one day working visit the stage is set for the opening of commercial bids for India's $11 billion tender for 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Reports suggest the bids will be opened next week.

The opening of the commercial bids would reveal the lowest bidder and allow commercial negotiations to commence.


Reports suggest that though Dassault *may boast of low costs*, Eurofighter's *offer of industrial partnership may turn out to be a game changer.*


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## Invincible INDIAN

I was listening to news, they have mentioned that 1st round of acceptance has cleared for EF. INDIA has given some suggestions and GERMANY has accepted those ones.
What do you think guys,


> 1st round of acceptance has cleared for EF


Is it regarding the shortlisting of EF out of 6 contenders or they have moved to second stage?

Seems like France will get the upgradation of Mirage project and INDIA will choose EF for MMRCA but I personally like Rafael though


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## Markus

I changed royalties last week.

I am now ALL GAME for the TYPHOON.

Go EF Go.


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## WARRANT

Euro Fighter will win .. no doubt. 

The best air superiority fighter is needed to defend any future threats. 

Migs ,Mirages and LCA's are more than enough to western borders.


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## Invincible INDIAN

BIDS are supposed to open by next week Guys!!!!


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## WARRANT

Invincible INDIAN said:


> BIDS are supposed to open by next week Guys!!!!


 
euro fighter will win.. france has mirage... and submarine deals.


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## sancho

Invincible INDIAN said:


> Is it regarding the shortlisting of EF out of 6 contenders or they have moved to second stage?


 
Most likely, because the chancellor just arrived now (thanks to the Iranians ), so no major negotiations would be done by now. Also there will be no acceptance of the EF during this visit, because MoD will need at least a month to study and compare the comercial bids, which are reported to be opend by next week only. 




Markus said:


> I changed royalties last week.
> 
> I am now ALL GAME for the TYPHOON.
> 
> Go EF Go.


 
Shame on you!  No, any specific reasons, or just like that?


----------



## SQ8

IND151 said:


> amazing internet..... amazing idiot.....


 
Apparently the dude thinking the french used dumb bombs in libya.. well.. cant blame him.


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## sancho

*Very interesting report on Rafale in Libya:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-342.html#post1807220


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## luckyyy

WARRANT said:


> Euro Fighter will win .. no doubt.
> 
> The best air superiority fighter is needed to defend any future threats.
> 
> Migs ,Mirages and LCA's are more than enough to western borders.


 
IAF will go for a superiority fighter , but also they will be looking for a fighter which can incorporate 5th gen techonolgy in most economical way...


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## Lord Of Gondor

luckyyy said:


> IAF will go for a superiority fighter , but also they will be looking for a fighter which can incorporate 5th gen techonolgy in most economical way...


 
Why on earth would they want that?!Isn't stealth one of the major factors in determining whether the fighter belongs to 5th Gen or not!?Only the A/C's that are designed and built from the ground up as a VLO are considered true fifth Gen right?E.g-Raptor,Lightening 2,PAK-FA,J-20 etc.
If what you are saying refer's to updating the avionics then both have equal scope as both will remain in service for quite some time but those A/C's which will be produced more have an edge,IMO.


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## luckyyy

*On one occasion - in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked*

MUST READ: Tell-all interview with Pakistan Viper pilot - The DEW Line


----------



## WARRANT

*Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge*
Jun 7, 2011






With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting *to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.*

Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. *Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025.*

Long-range planning is possible because many of the core capabilities deemed necessary for the domestic user and potential export customers are now nearing the end of development. *With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); and upgraded forward-sight optronics.* Qualification of those elements is due for completion in mid-2012 with delivery anticipated in 2013, says Stephane Reb, program manager for French defense procurement agency DGA.

Another near-term activity is the potential launch of a major upgrade of Rafales Damocles laser targeting pod, which would introduce video capability to the system. The effort is slated to be put on contract this year.

*Damocles uses an infrared sensor, but the French military has also identified a need for a TV channel, which could prove particularly useful in urban operations. That addition would provide a crisper picture to more clearly identify targets. Both IR and TV feeds can be downlinked to ground troops via the Rover system.*

As a result of the changes,* the pod will require a major redesign, Reb says. Because the outer shell of the pod will change slightly, some regression flight testing will be needed.*

*If current plans hold, technology prototypes could be flying next year; the system could be fielded around 2016, depending on funding.
*
The existing processing architecture should allow Rafale to receive needed improvements in the near term without any significant hardware or software changes until the MLU emerges, Reb says. He notes that ideas such as RCS improvement and thrust vector control are just that, ideas. The exact road map has still to be built.

But thats* not to say that elements such as the radar cross section are not already being considered as design changes are implemented. To support a 9-ton thrust version of the M88 turbojetsought by potential export customer United Arab EmiratesRafales engine intakes would have to be increased by about 1.5 cm. To help mitigate any negative impact on the fighters RCS, some material changes may be made as part of the modification if it goes into production.*

Many of the modifications would be on the systems side, though. For instance, the side arrays would be used to increase radar coverage.* A Thales official notes that, long term, those additions make more sense than fitting the RBE2 active, electronically scanned ar-ay (AESA) radar with a repositioner;· the latter is being considered for the Saab Gripen NG and Eurofighter Typhoon to increase the field of view of their future AESAs.*


*Furthermore, Rafales Specter electronic-warfare suite also is set for more iterations. One effort would be to add a single-ship precision emitter geolocation capability to the fighter. And, government and industry officials are saying that the eventual retirement of the Mirage 2000s Astac electronic intelligence pod means Rafale will take on that role.*

Another improvement being *considered for the electronic warfare system involves enhanced jamming techniques*. However, the DDM&#8209;NG missile-warning upgrade now being developed for Rafale would support use of a directed infrared countermeasures subsystem.

Research and development studies to equip the fighter with satellite communications and software-defined radios are also being considered.

A more far out MLU idea involves integrating the ability to control unmanned aircraft into Rafale.

Meanwhile, the French navy next month expects to inaugurate its second operational unit, 11F, to be collocated with 12F at Landisvisiau near Brest, France.

The move comes as the inventory of single-seat Dassault Aviation Rafale Ms is starting to grow.

Photo: Dassault

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK


----------



## dbc

WARRANT said:


> *Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge*
> 
> Furthermore, Rafale&#8217;s Specter electronic-warfare suite also is set for more iterations. *One effort would be to add a single-ship precision emitter geolocation capability to the fighter. *And, government and industry officials are saying that the eventual retirement of the Mirage 2000s Astac electronic intelligence pod means Rafale will take on that role.



Sancho, have you been lying to us?  Why are they trying to add something that you claim is current SPECTRA capability?


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## The_Sidewinder

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sancho, have you been lying to us?  Why are they trying to add something that you claim is current SPECTRA capability?


 
yup...i also got the same question:p


----------



## dbc

The_Sidewinder said:


> yup...i also got the same question:p



Yes Sancho has been relentless in his claim of superior passive geolocation for Spectra and Rafale and now we discover single ship geolocation is a future planned enhancement - interesting 

More about Analyseur de Signaux TACtiques (ASTAC) 



> The Analyseur de Signaux TACtiques (ASTAC) electronic reconnaissance system consists of an internally or pod-mounted airborne sensor package and an associated ground processing station. It is intended to perform detection, identification and location of 'any' radar type in a 'very dense' environment. A datalink between the pod application and the ground station enables a 'very rapid' build-up of electronic orders of battle. The main characteristics of the system are a 'very wide' frequency coverage, 'wide' instantaneous bandwidth, 'high' sensitivity, 'high' discriminating power and 'high' direction-finding accuracy (using interferometry). The system is fully automatic, fully reprogrammable and is capable of processing up to 20 radars/s. More specifically, it can handle pulse modulated (with pulse repetition internal diversity/agility, pulse compression and radio frequency diversity/agility), Continuous Wave (CW) and interrupted CW emitters and makes use of two wideband, compressive, surface acoustic wave receivers. Here, one receiver is used to obtain a very precise measurement of radar frequency and the two together can handle frequency-agile emitters. The system uses interferometer phase-measuring antenna arrays to determine the azimuth of any threat emitter operating within the 0.5 to 18 GHz frequency range (with 0.1 to 0.5 GHz or 18 to 40 GHz coverage as options). When packaged as a pod, ASTAC can store acquired data in an onboard recording subsystem as well as transmit it to its associated ground station (using an Ultra High Frequency (UHF - 300 MHz to 3 GHz) datalink).



http://articles..com/articles/-Rada...-INTelligence-ELINT-system-International.html


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## The_Sidewinder

Sancho bro....please reply


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sancho, have you been lying to us?  Why are they trying to add something that you claim is current SPECTRA capability?


 
They are not trying to add, but upgrading the capability, they have if for nearly a decade now and only because many others just come up with it now, it doesn't mean they would just sit and wait. Same reasons why they already develop GaN modules for later AESA radar and SPECTRA upgrades, why they have an higher thrust engines , or CFTs since the early 2000s. 
Btw, without geolocation capability, Rafale couldn't be used in SEAD missions in Libya isn't it?

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## The_Sidewinder

sancho said:


> They are not trying to add, but upgrading the capability, they have if for nearly a decade now and only because many others just come up with it now, it doesn't mean they would just sit and wait. Same reasons why they already develop GaN modules for later AESA radar and SPECTRA upgrades, why they have an higher thrust engines , or CFTs since the early 2000s.
> Btw, without geolocation capability, Rafale couldn't be used in SEAD missions in Libya isn't it?


 
thnxx bro...

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## dbc

sancho said:


> They are not trying to add, but upgrading the capability, they have if for nearly a decade now and only because many others just come up with it now, it doesn't mean they would just sit and wait. Same reasons why they already develop GaN modules for later AESA radar and SPECTRA upgrades, why they have an higher thrust engines , or CFTs since the early 2000s.
> Btw, without geolocation capability, Rafale couldn't be used in SEAD missions in Libya isn't it?



Geolocating stationary ground emitters was never in doubt, but can the Rafale single ship geolocate fast moving aerial emitters as you have frequently claimed? I'm not so sure it can, do you have any trusted source that says it can?


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Geolocating stationary ground emitters was never in doubt, but can the Rafale single ship geolocate fast moving aerial emitters as you have frequently claimed? I'm not so sure it can, do you have any trusted source that says it can?


 
Depends what you mean with trusted? A french pilot that says SPECTRA detected and guided MICA passively might not be enough isn't it?  Also ground emmiters / defences don't have to be stationary as well, many SAM systems and their radars are mobile today and can be relocated when detected as well. Geolocating (as far as I understands it), gives more data about the target then simpler locating techniques by older RWR for example. That's why the EW systems in the Prowler and Growler were often way more advanced than in normal fighter EW systems, Rafale is the first wide spread system that has such high capabilities integrated and the F16 B60, or others will follow now, or with the next upgrades.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Depends what you mean with trusted? A french pilot that says SPECTRA detected and guided MICA passively might not be enough isn't it?  Also ground emmiters / defences don't have to be stationary as well, many SAM systems and their radars are mobile today and can be relocated when detected as well. Geolocating (as far as I understands it), gives more data about the target then simpler locating techniques by older RWR for example. That's why the EW systems in the Prowler and Growler were often way more advanced than in normal fighter EW systems, Rafale is the first wide spread system that has such high capabilities integrated and the F16 B60, or others will follow now, or with the next upgrades.



No a pilots incomplete narration on the passive use of MICA isn't enough, it does not tell us much. Mobile SAM units take between 20 minutes to a few hours to relocate in addition the radar on such units are never operating when the vehicle is in motion. Geolocating a fast flying aggressively maneuvering fighter is way more challenging then detecting surface emitters.


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sancho, have you been lying to us?  Why are they trying to add something that you claim is current SPECTRA capability?


 
you should be doing your own research rather just trusting someone who known for making false claims...

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> you should be doing your own research rather just trusting someone who known for making false claims...


 
 Still waiting for you to prove that there is a final Mig 35 prototype with all the claimed changes, but I guess you need some more time to search, because the chance to find it is not that high.


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## SQ8

WHEN is the decision coming??


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## sancho

Santro said:


> WHEN is the decision coming??


 
Of MMRCA? Somewhere later this year, they now has to open the compercial bids, compare them, if necessary add another round of negotiations and then will take a decision on which fighter/offer is the best suited to their (IAF/ possibly IN/ GoI / Indian defence industry) requirements.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Of MMRCA? Somewhere later this year, they now has to open the compercial bids, compare them, if necessary add another round of negotiations and then will take a decision on which fighter/offer is the best suited to their (IAF/ possibly IN/ GoI / Indian defence industry) requirements.


 
Should one be pessimistic about that timeframe... considering the inordinate delays in the Mirage 2000 upgrade program, specifically by the finance guys?
Is the decision going to be based solely on the most commercially attractive option( advantage EF).. or is the international political scenario expected to table the decision a bit more after the commercial proposals have been scrutinized?


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## sancho

Santro said:


> Should one be pessimistic about that timeframe... considering the inordinate delays in the Mirage 2000 upgrade program, specifically by the finance guys?
> Is the decision going to be based solely on the most commercially attractive option( advantage EF).. or is the international political scenario expected to table the decision a bit more after the commercial proposals have been scrutinized?


 
Second try. The Mirage deal is not negotiated by FM so far, there were only MoD/IAF negotiating with the manufacturers about what the upgrade will include and what it will cost.
For MMRCA the biggest delay factor imo and also in the opinion of the IAF Chief Naik, were vendors complaining that they are out, but since even Boeing admitted that they lost, it seems not even political pressure will change anything here. 
From the start it was officially stated that ToT and improving our industry are prime requirements and imo that was also the reason to not buy Mirage 2000s and switch to the bigger M MRCA competition. The risks of delays were calculated, because the outcome is much higher now, so the comercial side will have a major role and as I said before, is one reason why the EF was shortlisted, besides of putting pressure on the French.
Politics won't be a big point anymore, because only the US would have been a real game changer for India (especially in the UN), the European countries can only support, or be a strategic partner and in this case France would be the safest and most capable option.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Still waiting for you to prove that there is a final Mig 35 prototype with all the claimed changes, but I guess you need some more time to search, because the chance to find it is not that high.


 
still waiting for you to prove that there is no Mig 35 prototype existes ..

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## sancho

> *France zeroes in on lightweight weapon for Rafale*
> 
> France is close to selecting a new, reduced collateral effect weapon for its Dassault Rafale fighters, with the need for a lightweight air-to-surface store having been underlined by its recent combat experience over Libya.
> Discussions involving the air force and France's DGA defence procurement agency have advanced over the recent weeks, with several options understood to be under consideration...
> 
> 
> ..."Brimstone is a solution, but it's not the only option," said Stéphane Reb, the DGA's Rafale programme manager. *Other candidates could include guided rockets or a weapon in the class of Lockheed Martin's small contained-area precision energetic load bomb, or Scalpel*, said industry sources. Meetings about a possible acquisition were held in late May, and a selection decision could come soon.
> Acquiring a precision-guided, lightweight weapon for the Rafale has interested the French military for some time, *with a TDA 68mm rocket pod having been exhibited alongside a Rafale at 2009's Paris air show*.


France zeroes in on lightweight weapon for Rafale











> *SCALPEL*
> 
> SCALPEL® offers a precise, small weapon system with low collateral damage in urban environments. SCALPEL is a spiral development program leveraging the qualified and aircraft-certified paveway II Enhanced Laser Guided Training Round (E-LGTR) technology. With its E-LGTR infrastructure already in place, SCALPEL offers minimal aircraft integration costs, minimal development effort, low technical and schedule risk, and affordable unit cost.


SCALPEL | Lockheed Martin

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/mfc/MFC-SCALPEL-Product_Card.pdf



Mock up of the guided rocket pod:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1047/1272831878.jpg
(left side under the wing)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1783/bourget039.jpg

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/5130/bourget096.jpg


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## luckyyy

extended bids from the two contenders valid only until December.

so , the MMRCA decision will be coming on first week of jan 2012..

but , will india buy any one of these at any quoted price ?

certainly not , there must be a defined range under which the FM has allocated the funds for MMRCA , what if both contender's quoted bids over range the allocated fund ?

will the next in line contenders will be called in for bidding ?

that's why , Saab has not given up hope of winning the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest yet..
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ab-keeps-watch-on-indian-fighter-contest.html


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## KEETARP

> One effort would be to add a single-ship precision emitter geolocation capability to the fighter



What is this single ship capability , can't Rafale geolocate targets alone by itself


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## shaktiman2010

sancho said:


> Of MMRCA? Somewhere later this year, they now has to open the compercial bids, compare them, if necessary add another round of negotiations and then will take a decision on which fighter/offer is the best suited to their (IAF/ possibly IN/ GoI / Indian defence industry) requirements.


 
Let's hope it goes into 2014. MRCA is wasteful anyways.


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## rajusri

PRATEEK said:


> What is this single ship capability , can't Rafale geolocate targets alone by itself


 
It can. The Sagem INS GPS can do that.


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## dbc

PRATEEK said:


> What is this single ship capability , can't Rafale geolocate targets alone by itself


 
Apparently not, its a future planned capability.


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## sancho

*A true Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft*


*Air Defense*







*CAS*







*SEAD*







*Maritime attack*







*Deep strike*






http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GwS-DBCcqf0/TeBZvZhx33I/AAAAAAAABLQ/UZFMbLrEa8Q/s1600/2009260205.jpg

*Reconnaissance*







*Nuclear strike*







*Inflight refueling*

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## Kinetic

Good pics sancho. Thanks. But I think EFT can do all these jobs. Weapons of both these fighters look nearly same but sensors and EW are better in EFT.

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## luckyyy

PRATEEK said:


> What is this single ship capability , can't Rafale geolocate targets alone by itself


 
rafale radar didn't have that range..


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## DacterSaab

how is the last picture *"Inflight Refeuling"* shouldn't it be *"CATOBAR Capable Carrier Launch"*????

lolz thats CCCL 1 of the major benefits.

I think Rafale should be chosen blindly because of 2 words. *"no sanctions"*
the EFT purchase will have to be cleared by the US first. (not that they won't clear it for NOW. but who can guarantee the future?) This fighter will form the medium weight part of our fleet approximately 1/3rd of our total fleet in no. We can't choose to loose that large a fleet during a crisis.


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> Good pics sancho. Thanks. But I think EFT can do all these jobs. Weapons of both these fighters look nearly same but sensors and EW are better in EFT.


 
 Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but the EF can only do 2 roles, air defence and limited CAS as we can see it now in Libya. Anything more requires more weapons, techs and capabilities (no PGM, no anti ship, no cruise missile, no 2000lb bomb, no ASMP-A no reece pod, no refuelling pod), which it don't get anytime soon and only if we will fund them with additional money. 




DacterSaab said:


> how is the last picture *"Inflight Refeuling"* shouldn't it be *"CATOBAR Capable Carrier Launch"*????


 
Because it carries an refuelling pod on the centerline station and 4 x fuel tanks to carry the fuel, here is another example: 







All these roles shown in the post can be done by Rafales for air force and navy, which means maximum capability possible for IAF and IN!


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but the EF can only do 2 roles, air defence and limited CAS ...


 
and surprisingly IAF didn't notice it before making EF into the shortlist and have to heard it on PDF from a poster...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> and surprisingly IAF didn't notice it before making EF into the shortlist and have to heard it on PDF from a poster...


 
Of course IAF noticed it in the trials where German EFs that were in India couldn't show anything else than good aerodynamic performance, by the fact that it has no AESA radar, no IRST, limited avionics and no strike capability. During the trials in Europe they saw test flights of an early AESA demo version and weapon trials of 500 and 1000lb LGBs, but that's it. Not to forget that IAF is monitoring the Libyan conflict as well and all they see is the same limited capability. 
One reason I think it was only shortlisted to put pressure on the French, capability, or costwise the F18SH would have been a stronger competitior for Rafale.


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## elite

sancho said:


> *I think it was only shortlisted to put pressure on the French, capability, or costwise the F18SH would have been a stronger competitior for Rafale.*



I certainly think the same since F18SH is more proved than Eurofighter. We could have got better deal from the french then.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> One reason I think it was only shortlisted to put pressure on the French, ..


 
EF is costly then rafale , i think rafale has shorlisted to put pressure on EF...
time will tell!!



> the fact that it has no AESA radar, no IRST, limited avionics and no strike capability.


Eurofighter test-flew a prototype AESA radar for the IAF evaluation .
http://www.indian-military.org/news...7-rejected-mmrca-vendors-fight-to-return.html


> IAF is monitoring the Libyan conflict


 
in libya even Tornado doing the same job , should IAF buy that..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> Eurofighter test-flew a prototype AESA radar for the IAF evaluation .
> 
> in libya even Tornado doing the same job , should IAF buy that..


 
As I said, they flew the prototype AESA in Europe not in India, because operational German Luftwaffe fighters made the trials in India and they have the Captor M and are purly A2A fighters only.
Why should we, just buy the Rafale, because it does everything the RAF EF and Tornados does combined!


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> As I said, they flew the prototype AESA in Europe not in India, because operational German Luftwaffe fighters made the trials in India and they have the Captor M and are purly A2A fighters only.
> Why should we, just buy the Rafale, because it does everything the RAF EF and Tornados does combined!


 
rafale just doing the job that Tornado doing in libya , that don't make any outstanding case of rafale in libya..
also , there is hardly any A2A engagment happened in libya where rafale could be judged for it's cambat capabilities...
so you should be restricting yourself on posting rafale advertisements on libyan coflict..

and just like the EF , rafale also flow a prototype AESA in mmrca trails..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> rafale just doing the job that Tornado doing in libya , that don't make any outstanding case of rafale in libya..
> also , there is hardly any A2A engagment happened in libya where rafale could be judged for it's cambat capabilities...
> so you should be restricting yourself on posting rafale advertisements on libyan coflict..
> 
> and just like the EF , rafale also flow a prototype AESA in mmrca trails..



Read what I said once again, it does anything that EF + Tornado does jointly! 
Btw, it's not my fault that the whole aviation press/media, even journalists that were against Rafale in the past, now are reporting only about its excellent performance in Libya, while it did most of it in Afghanistan as well, but this time one can really compare it to other fighters like EF and see the clear edge it has! 

Here is another one:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-347.html#post1856462


And no, Rafale came to India with a ready developed RBE 2 AESA, the only fighter that was able to do so besides the US fighters!


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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007



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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Nice, I'm looking forward for a lot of great infos, pics and videos from the Paris Airshow this weekend!


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------


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## SpArK




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## sathya

we should get deal for joint development of rafale upgrade with france.... 
otherwise rafale upgradation will end up like mirage2000..


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## SpArK

* Eurofighters In Iceland For The Northern Viking Exercise​*


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## sancho

Dassault asked what will protect India in the 21st century?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6wypY_A2p4I/Tdr3K-I4h6I/AAAAAAAABKs/xtbk76pWXJ4/s1600/capturexku.png


*I hope this deadly combo ! ! !*

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## sudhir007

Euro firms submit offset bids for aircraft deal | idrw.org

Two months after being shortlisted, French firm Dassault and consortium of European companies Eurofighter have submitted their revised offset bids for the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal, the process for which is expected to be completed by the year end.

On April 27, India has shortlisted the two European companies for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in which six companies were participating.

The offsets offer, which were completed until April 14 this year, have been asked to be revised until June 17 that is today, German Ambassador Thomas Mattusek told reporters here.

Officials in Dassault also said they have already submitted the revised bids with the ministry.

Under the offsets clause in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), foreign vendors bagging deals worth over Rs 300 crore have to reinvest at least 30 per cent of the contract amount into Indian defence, civilian aerospace or the homeland security sectors.

In the M-MRCA competition, companies have to invest 50 per cent of the worth of the deal into the Indian defence sector only.

The shortlist and commercial biddings are expected to be opened in the next few weeks so that the whole project is expected to be finalised by the end of this year, the German Ambassador said.

Germany along with United Kingdom, Spain and Italy is one of the four partner nations in the Eurofighter consortium and is the lead country for the Indian campaign.


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## SpArK

Identify the girl.


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## Break the Silence

SpArK said:


> Identify the girl.


 
Who is She???


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## SpArK

*Thanks, But No Thanks​*
Posted by Robert Wall at 6/17/2011 5:05 AM CDT

*Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Eurofighter are all gearing up for Japan&#8217;s new fighter competition, but Dassault Aviation &#8211; another stalwart in the global fighter campaigns now unfolding &#8211; opted not to play. Why?*

Dassault Aviation chairman and CEO Charles Edelstenne is not shy about saying the he did not want to play the role of a stalking horse. *&#8220;Our belief is that the Japanese have issued the RFP only to have some rabbit for the Americans to chase.&#8221; But that&#8217;s not a role he wants to be in. &#8220;We are not ready to spend millions [on a campaign] only to be used as a rabbit for the Americans.&#8221;*

*Instead, Dassault remains focused on other potential export orders, with competitions in India, Brazil and the United Arab Emirates the highest profile.* Which does Edelstenne rate the most important? The one he signs first, he quips, noting that the decision timelines are dictated by the government.

Each of the competitions has its own intricacies. *India, for instance, has placed huge demands on bidders &#8211; now down to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale &#8211; in terms of industrial offsets. Edelstenne acknowledges that the &#8220;compensation is really very tough. It will be very difficult to answer to this request.&#8221; However, he&#8217;s not scared. &#8220;We will negotiate,&#8221; he says. &#8220;First of all, I want to be chosen, and then we will negotiate.&#8221;*

As for the UAE &#8211; perhaps the longest-running campaign for the Rafale &#8211;* Edelstenne notes the 9 metric ton thrust version of the M88 engine is available. What is more, a Dassault official notes the that ground moving target indicator radar modes the UAE has expressed interest in &#8211; they are not required by the French customer &#8211; could be easily provided by Thales, since it already has demonstrated those capabilities on Mirage 2000s.
*

Thanks, But No Thanks

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## sancho

> As far as I remember, this is one of the first pictures of a Rafale loaded with LGTR bombs. These small laser guided inert bombs are used for training purpose but the DGA is also evaluateing the possibility to use them as a limited effect weapons against military vehicles.



Rafale News: Rafale Pictures of the day


*For the record:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-112.html#post1834614


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## sancho

*Rafale 30,000 hours special paint job *


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## lepziboy

SpArK said:


> Identify the girl.


 
selena gomez?lol


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## SpArK

oops EFT 

*Saab fingers BAE over South African fighter deal*

Financial News, 20th June 2011 11:52 GMT


UK-headquartered arms globocorp *BAE Systems is back in the spotlight over allegedly corrupt business practices after its partner Saab announced that it had submitted documents to the Swedish national anti-corruption prosecutor and specifically named BAE.*

Saab makes the Gripen fighters now being delivered to the South African air force, under a deal which was done with BAE providing marketing and sales expertise to Saab. Last week Saab issued a statement saying:

Saab decided to launch an investigation after details emerged in the media about a contract with a South African consultant about which Saab had no prior knowledge.
Saab has now completed a review of the contract and the financial transactions of the company Sanip Pty Ltd [owned by Saab] during the period in question.

*Our review revealed that approximately 24 million rand was paid from BAE Systems to Sanip. These payments were transferred to the South African consultant shortly thereafter.*

"These transactions have never entered into the accounts," says Saab's President and CEO Håkan Buskhe in accompanying tinned quotes, adding:

"A person emplyed by BAE Systems has without Saabs knowledge signed a for us unknown contract, signed for us up until now unknown transactions as well as signing the audited and apparently inaccurate financial statement for 2003."

Saab says it has passed everything it has on the matter to Chief Prosecutor Gunnar Stetler at the Swedish National Anti-Corruption Unit, and says that it will remain "at the complete disposal of the Chief Prosecutor in this case".

*BAE said in a statement supplied to the BBC:*

This and other matters were fully reviewed by the UK Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and formed part of the overall resolution that the company reached with the SFO in February 2010. Any questions relating to Saab and its subsidiaries should be directed to Saab.

An SFO spokesman confirmed to the Reg this morning that last year's agreement between the SFO and BAE included the provision that there would be no further prosecutions relating to matters which the SFO had been investigating to that date, which included the South African Gripen deal. Thus there would seem to be no prospect of any action by the SFO.

However BAE has a sizeable corporate presence in Sweden: the global defence mammoth owns the Hägglunds armoured-vehicles factory, the famous Bofors cannon plant and simulation business C-ITS. Until quite recently BAE liked to describe Sweden as one of its "home markets", though it no longer does so. BAE Systems AB, the company's substantial Swedish tentacle, lies firmly in the Swedish prosecutor's jurisdiction.

Alongside the agreement last year with the SFO, under which BAE agreed to pay £30m in fines in the UK, BAE also settled with the US Justice Department over a range of offences committed in different countries. The $400m US fine covered, among other things, corrupt dealings associated with its marketing of Saab Gripens in Eastern Europe and violations of US export-control laws during the same deals. (The Gripen, like all modern Western-made combat jets, contains substantial amounts of controlled US technology and its export to any third party requires US scrutiny and consent.)

BAE has just announced the formation of an advisory board which will oversee the paying-out of £29.5m compensation to the people of Tanzania, a move it agreed to make as part of last year's deal with the SFO. The firm had previously sold the poverty-stricken nation a radar system in a massively controversial £28m deal which saw large amounts of the money paid allegedly kicked back into overseas accounts. ®

Saab fingers BAE over South African fighter deal ? The Register


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## brational

SpArK said:


> oops EFT
> 
> *Saab fingers BAE over South African fighter deal*
> 
> Financial News, 20th June 2011 11:52 GMT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK-headquartered arms globocorp *BAE Systems is back in the spotlight over allegedly corrupt business practices after its partner Saab announced that it had submitted documents to the Swedish national anti-corruption prosecutor and specifically named BAE.*
> 
> Saab makes the Gripen fighters now being delivered to the South African air force, under a deal which was done with BAE providing marketing and sales expertise to Saab. Last week Saab issued a statement saying:
> 
> Saab decided to launch an investigation after details emerged in the media about a contract with a South African consultant about which Saab had no prior knowledge.
> Saab has now completed a review of the contract and the financial transactions of the company Sanip Pty Ltd [owned by Saab] during the period in question.
> 
> *Our review revealed that approximately 24 million rand was paid from BAE Systems to Sanip. These payments were transferred to the South African consultant shortly thereafter.*
> 
> "These transactions have never entered into the accounts," says Saab's President and CEO Håkan Buskhe in accompanying tinned quotes, adding:
> 
> "A person emplyed by BAE Systems has without Saabs knowledge signed a for us unknown contract, signed for us up until now unknown transactions as well as signing the audited and apparently inaccurate financial statement for 2003."
> 
> Saab says it has passed everything it has on the matter to Chief Prosecutor Gunnar Stetler at the Swedish National Anti-Corruption Unit, and says that it will remain "at the complete disposal of the Chief Prosecutor in this case".
> 
> *BAE said in a statement supplied to the BBC:*
> 
> This and other matters were fully reviewed by the UK Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and formed part of the overall resolution that the company reached with the SFO in February 2010. Any questions relating to Saab and its subsidiaries should be directed to Saab.
> 
> An SFO spokesman confirmed to the Reg this morning that last year's agreement between the SFO and BAE included the provision that there would be no further prosecutions relating to matters which the SFO had been investigating to that date, which included the South African Gripen deal. Thus there would seem to be no prospect of any action by the SFO.
> 
> However BAE has a sizeable corporate presence in Sweden: the global defence mammoth owns the Hägglunds armoured-vehicles factory, the famous Bofors cannon plant and simulation business C-ITS. Until quite recently BAE liked to describe Sweden as one of its "home markets", though it no longer does so. BAE Systems AB, the company's substantial Swedish tentacle, lies firmly in the Swedish prosecutor's jurisdiction.
> 
> Alongside the agreement last year with the SFO, under which BAE agreed to pay £30m in fines in the UK, BAE also settled with the US Justice Department over a range of offences committed in different countries. The $400m US fine covered, among other things, corrupt dealings associated with its marketing of Saab Gripens in Eastern Europe and violations of US export-control laws during the same deals. (The Gripen, like all modern Western-made combat jets, contains substantial amounts of controlled US technology and its export to any third party requires US scrutiny and consent.)
> 
> BAE has just announced the formation of an advisory board which will oversee the paying-out of £29.5m compensation to the people of Tanzania, a move it agreed to make as part of last year's deal with the SFO. The firm had previously sold the poverty-stricken nation a radar system in a massively controversial £28m deal which saw large amounts of the money paid allegedly kicked back into overseas accounts. ®
> 
> Saab fingers BAE over South African fighter deal ? The Register



Dhanda hai yeh sab ganda hai..


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## sancho

*First reports and pics from the Paris Air Show coming in:*



> *U.K. Typhoons Pair With Tornadoes for Libya Strikes*
> 
> By ANDREW CHUTER  PARIS  New to the ground attack role, British Typhoons operating over Libya are pairing with Tornado GR4s to benefit from 20 years of strike experience gained by crews of the older aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan, said a Royal Air Force officer, speaking ahead of the show opening June 20.
> 
> But its not just mentoring that the Tornado crews are giving their partners. Squadron Leader Rupert Joel told reporters at the show *that the older aircraft were also taking most of the load when laser-designating the Typhoons Enhanced Paveway II bombs.*
> 
> Most of the weapons released by the aircraft use GPS Aided Inertial Navigation Systems for guidance, but when laser designation is also required, *its the Tornado navigator who normally does the job*, Joel said.
> 
> Both aircraft use the Litening laser designator pod. All Typhoon pilots in Libya are able to self-designate their own weapons using GPS or laser, but few actually use the latter option, passing that off to their Tornado buddies...
> 
> ...The mixed pairs concept *overcomes the current limitation of Typhoon*, because the Tornado can use several types of Paveway bombs, plus Storm Shadow and the Brimstone anti-tank missile...



U.K. Typhoons Pair With Tornadoes for Libya Strikes  News From The International 2011 Paris Air Show - Defense News Premium Show Scout

That's what happens when you try to do the strike role with a single seat fighter and very limited strike capabilities!


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## sancho

Talking about strike capability, Rafale displayed on the Paris Air Show with some interesting new weapons:

*LGTR bomb*






Check post #1702 for more infos!


*Laser guided rocket pod (this time it seems to be the real one, not only a mock up) *







*Triple Brimstone ATGM (in the background)*







Credits to Xav from the MP forum!


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## sancho

The Rafale newsblog is also reporting from the Air Show and has released videos of a Dassault Aviation press conference with the CEO with some interesting statements:



> *Main points :*
> 
> 
> *Lybia :*
> 
> *Spectra has allowed the Rafale to enter first in the Libyan airspace while the Lybian Air defenses were still consistant Total interroperability, excellent reliability and availability demonstrated AASM demonstrated at a range of 57 km against a tank All the scalps launched have hit their target*
> 
> 
> *Rafale F3+ :*
> 
> First deliveries in 2013
> RBE-2 AESA qualification in 2012 and deliveries in 2013
> Meteor planned for 2018 or earlier Other improvements expected due to field experience : on the Canon, FBW system, introduction of concrete bombs.
> 
> 
> *French deliveries :*
> 
> 180 Rafale on order 98 delivered (the 100th is flying and its delivery is expected in September) 82 remaining planes to be built between now and 2018 at a rate of 11 aicrafts/year Further deliveries for french needs should continue until about 2025
> 
> 
> *Export:*
> 
> Program cost increase only by 4.7% in 25 years thanks to significant optimizations to reduce production costs. *Rafale global cost would be 60% less expensive than a typhoon
> Dassault Aviation CEO says he's "more than optimistic" in India adding that the Rafale does have capabilities that the Eurofigter doesn't have. Indian offsets requierements are vey high and could be difficult to fulfill.*
> Dassault declined to answer the japan's RFQ/RFI because they are convinced that the Final choice will be american, no matter what. "We don't want to spend money to serve as a rabbit for the USA" said Edelstenne.
> Switzerland competion re-opened with very good chances for the Rafale 9 Tonnes engine for the UAE can be offered without any problem Brazil FX-2 competition in stand by but should start up again in 2012



Rafale News: Le Bourget 2011, Dassault aviation CEO press conference


Btw, some interesting comments from him about the EF partnership and why having 4 partners that all wants to lead, or wants their own prototypes for tests and stuff made things more difficult and expensive.


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## sancho

*More nice pics of the Rafale in grey and black on the following link:*

















SpottingZone - Afficher le sujet - [Juin 2011] MNA BA 113 de Saint-Dizier


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## Abingdonboy

From the various news reports an interviews from Dassualt it seems they are emphising how hard Indian Offset requirements are how they will be "difficult to fill". Does this mean they are unable to do so? Is this foreshadowing for what is to come- inability to fulfil offset requimrents? If so will entire process be called off? Are EFT consortium having the same difficulties in this regard?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> From the various news reports an interviews from Dassualt it seems they are emphising how hard Indian Offset requirements are how they will be "difficult to fill". Does this mean they are unable to do so? Is this foreshadowing for what is to come- inability to fulfil offset requimrents? If so will entire process be called off? Are EFT consortium having the same difficulties in this regard?


 
During the press conference a journalist asked the CEO about the competition and dealing with Indians. He said that he talked with Russians and that they stated that it sometimes could be better to loose in India, then to win, because of the high demands for licence production and stuff...(the crowd laughed)
The CEO answered that the Russians are still selling their fighters to the Indians, adding that Dassault has experience with Indians for decades now and sold nearly any generation of fighters to us and he hopes to sell the Rafale as well, *but...*
...he admitted that the offset negotiations are very high and difficult (check the 2nd video for that part)!

I guess this explains his statement, especially in what realation he made it, but it shouldn't be surprising that the offsets are high. The 50% asked in the RFP are way higher than normal and we also heared the comments from Boeing about Indian industry not beeing ready to absorb the ToT, or to fulfill the parts of the licence production we aim for. 
To be honest, it is indeed something that worried me from the start as well, not that we ask for so much, because as I meantioned before, the switch from MRCA to MMRCA was mainly meant for ToT and offsets, not for more capable fighters, but can really do it, or will we have to focus on some parts? 
We can also include the Russian reports about our contibution to FGFA which is estimated at about 20 to 25% and that for good reasons! Indian aero industry is still at the begining and the gap to most other countries is still very wide, but that's exactly why we need the MMRCA to improve it and my guess is, that we ask for as much as possible and then compromise to those ToT/offsets that are really important for us. Imo, AESA radar and engine techs are the most important fields for us, because they failed during LCA development and the US is still denying JV with their companies and blocking some projects with Israeli companies as well. The best alternative are Europeans here and that's one reason why Rafale and EF was shortlisted, because they are the only fighters with an offer of full ToT of the AESA radar + source codes and offered reasonable engine ToT during the LCA MK2 engine competition, or the Kaveri - Snecma co-development. But all this has it's cost of course and these competitions are the perfect base for us to negotiate!
I am sure that the EF consortium will have much difficulties as well, maybe even more by the fact that they would have to negotiate with all 4 partners and their governments first, but in general and with the long experience India has with Europe and their industry, I think they are the best partners in such an important case and preferable to the US for sure.

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## jha

MRCA tender: US firm Raytheon locks onto India - India - DNA


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## sudhir007

MRCA tender: US firm Raytheon locks onto India | idrw.org







Vying for a pie in India&#8217;s planned procurement of 126 MMRCA fighters, US defence major Raytheon today said it was eager to supply weapons systems for being integrated onto the jets to be selected from among two shortlisted European companies.

Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems said the company has a suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons systems that could be integrated on Rafale or Eurofighter, the two shortlisted plane makers by India, subject to US government approval.

&#8220;Raytheon is prepared to meet India&#8217;s national security needs and support the protection of India&#8217;s sovereign interests with our air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons,&#8221; he said at the Paris Air Show here.

India has shortlisted two European contenders, French Dassault Rafale and European Eurofighter for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in April.

He said Raytheon&#8217;s Paveway systems with proven track record could be integrated into the 126 MMRCA. Raytheon&#8217;s Paveway is a kit that transforms &#8220;dumb&#8221; bombs into precision-guided munitions; Paveway is currently in the inventory of the Indian Air Force and 41 other countries.

The Paveway family of weapons are platform independent and integrated on more than 27 aircraft.

Noting that India was a priority country for Raytheon, he also announced the firm&#8217;s desire to integrate the combat-proven Paveway systems on India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

&#8220;Raytheon has been a trusted partner to India for more than three decades, and we hope to deepen this relationship by providing the Indian Air Force the tools it needs to defend India&#8217;s sovereign interests,&#8221; said Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems.

&#8220;India&#8217;s air warriors deserve the world&#8217;s most accurate direct-attack precision guided munition, which is why Raytheon&#8217;s Paveway is a perfect fit for the LCA.

Integrated on the Rafale and Eurofighter, Paveway has been extensively used in several ongoing contingency operations. Raytheon&#8217;s battle-tested Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile is integrated on the Eurofighter.

Raytheon officials also indicated that subject to the approval of the US and Indian governments, Raytheon is looking for partnership opportunities to produce critical components of Paveway with Indian industry.

&#8220;Raytheon has the utmost respect for the capabilities of India&#8217;s defense industry,&#8221; said Peter Wray, vice president of business development for Raytheon Missile Systems in India.

&#8220;If Raytheon were to receive the proper authorisations and find the right partner, we&#8217;d be eager to pursue co-production opportunities&#8221;.


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## nomi007

MMRCA divide indian into 2 groups
1 is in the favor of rafale other is choosing euro fighter
i think india will choose ef-2000 the reason is that
india is purchasing 100 engines for trjas from usa,c-17 from usa c-130j from usa which make usa happy
upgrading mirage-2000 with the help of france
than option is left is euro fighter


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## saumyasupratik

lepziboy said:


> selena gomez?lol


 
Suman Sharma from that Chhindits Blog.


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## King123

nomi007 said:


> MMRCA divide indian into 2 groups
> 1 is in the favor of rafale other is choosing euro fighter
> i think india will choose ef-2000 the reason is that
> india is purchasing 100 engines for trjas from usa,c-17 from usa c-130j from usa which make usa happy
> upgrading mirage-2000 with the help of france
> than option is left is euro fighter


 
India is not buying to make happy but to Buy best Air Craft. C-17 and C-130J were one of best options in the world. So, India bought. India need is quite large, that's why so many options comes. According to me, Rafale is best option. This will complete all the requirement along with phased increase of SUKHOI 30MKI with Brahmos, MIG29UPG, Tejas till 2020 . After 2017-2020 - 5th Generation Air Craft PAK FA / FGFA / AMCA will rule.


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## SpArK

*Rafale spearheads Dassault's growth​*
_French aviation firm optimistic about selling multi-dimensional fighter jet to UAE, India and Brazil_






_A Rafale fighter at the 49th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget airport. It is understood that France has received technical and operational specifications from the UAE&#8217;s armed forces for the jet on the sidelines of the air show._​

Dubai: There is a sense of optimism in the air at the offices of Dassault Aviation and Dassault Systemes in Paris, as the two bodies of the company blend to take its manufacturing, technological and scientific capabilities into a new era of commercial and defence aviation.
The manufacture of business aircraft takes up the bulk of the book for Dassault, while fighter jets like the Mirage 2000 and the recently developed Rafale &#8216;omnirole' fighter complete the picture. Exports account for over 60 per cent of net sales.


While Dassault has a proven pedigree in aviation and air defence systems, its pet project, the Rafale fighter jet, is currently the buzzword in countries hoping to upgrade their air fleets and also in live &#8216;operation theatres' such as Libya and Afghanistan, where it is being used in combat situations by the French Air Force.

*Cautiously optimistic*

Now, Dassault is cautiously optimistic of completing an export win with the possible sale of the fighter to the UAE, India and even Brazil. Currently the French air force is the Rafale's sole client and the whiff of a contract has never been so close.
"I would not say that the Rafale has suddenly come into the news," said Eric Trappier, executive vice-president, International, Dassault Aviation.
"We have established ourselves as a result of long, hard work in Europe, the UAE and India. The UAE and India have been longstanding clients of Dassault &#8212; with the purchase of Mirage 2000s &#8212; and this means that they have been satisfied with what we have had to offer before," he said.

*Different approaches*

"Different approaches are reserved for prospective clients. The Indian government ensured that the Indian Air Force (IAF) had invited six tenders from manufacturers," Trappier said.

"This was shortlisted down to two after Indian pilots worked technically and operationally on our planes," he said.
"This was phase one of the proposal: complete evaluation of the six manufacturers in their conditions with pilots exercising and even firing weapons and resorting to different types of flights in the desert and altitude. In the end they gave us their feedback and the two short listed manufacturers are the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon."


*Peculiarity*

The peculiarity of this deal is that it is the first time that the Eurofighter and the Rafale have faced off against each other in a final countdown, even though they have competed in tenders. A triumph for either jet could well be a win-win for the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) which owns a 46 per cent share holding in the Eurofighter consortium, as well as 46.3 per cent in Dassault.
An agreement for 126 aircraft with New Delhi could be potentially worth $10 billion-$12 billion (Dh36.7 billion-Dh44 billion).
"With the UAE, however, our approach is vastly different," Trappier said.
"We have a direct approach. This is based on the close relationship between the two countries. We made a few flights with the Rafale for evaluation. The UAE government is used to working with the French, which is why we have proposed the sale of roughly 60 Rafale jets."

*Book value*

The book value of this contract is believed to be in excess of $8 billion. It is now understood that negotiations have gone a step forward after France received technical and operational specifications from the UAE's armed forces along the sidelines of the ongoing Le Bourget Air Show in Paris. A date for signing a deal is to be set following financial negotiations.

Sources at Dassault are hoping that this will be closed in the UAE at the Dubai Air Show.

A further $7 billion deal with Brazil could complete the big picture for Dassault but for a few irritants in the negotiations. Former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva came close to signing on the dotted line, after competitors like the Boeing F-18, Grippen Saab and the Typhoon had bowed out, but held back, leaving the decision to current President Dilma Roussef who took office last January 1.
"Each country has its own set of requirements and they focus on their individual capabilities," Trappier said, explaining the method behind individual negotiations.

Expounding on the logic behind making a multi-dimensional fighter like the Rafale, Trappier said: "The idea behind its creation is dominated by cost and financial restrictions. The general headquarters in France proposed building one single aircraft with all types of mission capabilities and one which could serve the French navy as well as the airforce."

Believing that this type of fighter aircraft could go on to become the norm for the future Trappier explained: "The military role and the omnirole capability are flexible because it is capable of adapting the strengths of the aircraft to the mission at hand. Missions can be more and more &#8216;wide', as in Afghanistan and Libya, or complete war &#8212; so it is easy when one has an aircraft capable of many purposes."

*Lost contracts*

Despite the Rafale's inherent strengths there were contracts that were lost, as in South Korea, Singapore and Morocco which opted for the Boeing F-15 and Lockheed Martin's F-16.

"If we are referring to South Korea and Singapore, we must remind ourselves that this is where the Americans are strong in terms of their political approach. American fighters had been sold before and so these countries went in for a process of continuity," he said. "Therefore, we don't consider it to be a loss as the process of negotiation was a foregone conclusion. Also, we must not forget that the Rafale was operational in the French Air Force only in 2006 so it is quite new."

Trappier believes the sky is the limit for the evolution of the Rafale.

*No restrictions*

"There are no restrictions. Some countries have even upgraded the F-5 aircraft which is an old plane. The Rafale can continue to be adapted for the next 30 years and will remain in the French forces for the next 40 years," he said.
"The systems in the plane were built up in order to receive these types of adaptations. There is no limit except a physical limit: like a limit on sensors on board. But the main sensors are there like the radar, the electronics, the countermeasures, the weapons," he added.
"In an aircraft which has an empty weight of 10 tonnes we have built a very well-conceptualised plane which may address everything, including the ration between fuel and capability to carry weapons and other such matters."
Looking at the future Trappier was confident in his view that more and more governments would be looking to trim their defence budgets.

*On track*

In this respect France is already on track.


"Prospects are open, but we developed the Rafale because we were pushed by our airforce and navy to do it. Whether the United States and other countries will do it is anybody's guess &#8212; they prefer dedicated fighters and their budgets are still huge. Maybe they will change."
With regard to the impending export of the Rafale, Trappier said: "There needs to be a level playing field where considerations are limited to the efficacy of the product. Serious testing must be the key and not just influence. The merchandise must be good after strenuous evaluation, but ultimately the selling of a fighter plane will always be the result of a political decision."

gulfnews : Rafale spearheads Dassault's growth

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## SpArK

EFT@ Le Bourget, Paris Air Show 2011

















Any idea who this is?

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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^MM Pallam Raju(MoS MoD)?!


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## SpArK

Bharadwaj said:


> ^^^^MM Pallam Raju(MoS MoD)?!


 
Yup. 2 points for the right answer.

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## sudhir007

Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar: AINonline

*Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar*

Thales is &#8220;five years ahead of anybody in Europe or the U.S.&#8221; in active arrays for airborne radars, according to Jean-Nöel Stock, Thales vice-president UAVs and intelligence, and a former program director for Dassault Rafale airborne systems.

Speaking earlier this month at Thales Airborne Systems&#8217; radar and mission systems facility in Pessac, Bordeaux, where he is also site director, Stock said one of the strengths of the Rafale program is that most of the electronics come from a single company. &#8220;The consistency we bring to the electronics means the pilot has a system that is fully integrated,&#8221; he said.

Thales&#8217;s contribution to the Rafale amounts to more than a quarter of the airplane&#8217;s dollar value, Stock said. It includes the RBE2 radar, frontal sector optronics, missile seekers (with MBDA), Damocles targeting pod and Spectra electronic warfare system. And all the data from the sensors is fuzed in a modular, data-processing unit before being displayed to the pilot or datalinked to friendly units.

Two weeks ago an RBE2 was in the final integration room at Pessac, awaiting delivery to France&#8217;s armaments agency, the DGA, for installation in the next Rafale to be produced by Dassault Aviation. It retained the passive array that will continue to be delivered through 2012. But sharing the room was an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar already undergoing integration ahead of installation on one of the 60 tranche 4 Rafales ordered by the DGA in 2009 for delivery from 2013.

The advantage of electronic scanning is that the radar beam is directed electronically, rather than by mechanically swiveling the antenna back and forth to scan the sky. That means the beam can be switched in microseconds from one area of the sky to another, or used for ground mapping and air surveillance at the same time by flipping between the two modes.

The current RBE2&#8217;s passive antenna uses electronic lenses consisting of arrays of diodes to direct the beam horizontally and vertically. The active array eliminates the grids; instead, the front end of the antenna is populated by hundreds of transmit/receive modules, each combining a high-power transmit amplifier, low-noise, receive amplifier and beam control.

Eliminating the grids also eliminates the power lost by the signal going back and forth, improving the radar&#8217;s detection capability. &#8220;With the active array, Rafale will have a radar with twice the performance of today&#8217;s radar,&#8221; said Stock.

Such a high level of integration is made possible by the gallium-arsenide, integrated-circuit technology on which Stock bases his claim of a five-year lead in active array radar. &#8220;It was not feasible in the &#8217;80s or &#8217;90s and is still not feasible for many European countries,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It is not possible to integrate at this density in a combat aircraft radar without gallium arsenide. It would produce more heat and we couldn&#8217;t accommodate it.&#8221; As it is, Thales had to develop a new liquid-cooling system for the modules.

The gallium-arsenide chips, which carry out digital processing and frequency management at the same time, are produced by United Monolithic Semiconductor, a Thales/EADS joint venture based at Orsay, south of Paris, then integrated into subassemblies by Thales Micro Electronics in Brittany before being integrated into the antenna itself at Pessac. &#8220;When Rafale is exported we will find local partners for components,&#8221; Stock said. &#8220;But we will ensure we have full control of the supply chain, right down to the printed circuit boards.&#8221;

Replacing a passive with an active array is &#8220;totally plug and play&#8221; and can be achieved in two hours, he added. Future enhancements to the radar, such as a finer aperture for ground mapping in synthetic aperture radar mode and simultaneous mode operation will be achieved through new software with no change to the hardware.

In fact, Thales said, the large number of T/R modules means some of them can fail without noticeably affecting the system&#8217;s overall reliability and performance. Their reliability is such that the active front end should not require maintenance at intervals of less than 10 years.

The same gallium-arsenide technology that is transforming the RBE2 is likely to find other applications, such as a future version of the Ocean Master 4000 maritime-surveillance radar that would retain mechanical rotation but use electronic-beam tilting. Current risk assessments are also looking at applications on the Franco-British Telemos medium altitude long endurance UAV.

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## sancho

*More news from the Air Show:*




> *Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar*
> 
> Thales is five years ahead of anybody in Europe or the U.S. in active arrays for airborne radars, according to Jean-Nöel Stock, Thales vice-president UAVs and intelligence, and a former program director for Dassault Rafale airborne systems.Speaking earlier this month at Thales Airborne Systems radar and mission systems facility in Pessac, Bordeaux, where he is also site director, Stock said *one of the strengths of the Rafale program is that most of the electronics come from a single company. The consistency we bring to the electronics means the pilot has a system that is fully integrated*, he said.
> 
> Thaless contribution to the Rafale amounts to more than a quarter of the airplanes dollar value, Stock said. *It includes the RBE2 radar, frontal sector optronics, missile seekers (with MBDA), Damocles targeting pod and Spectra electronic warfare system.* And all the data from the sensors is fuzed in a modular, data-processing unit before being displayed to the pilot or datalinked to friendly units...



Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar: AINonline


*Rafale and Supercruise:*



> - The Snecma M88 engine in the Rafale develops 11,250 lb of dry thrust and 16,900 lb with afterburner. *They allow it to supercruise with four missiles and a 1,250 liter belly drop tank. The naval version (Rafale M) can supercruise up to Mach 1.4*



http://siae.netdirect.fr/2011/sites/actu/docs/3-vol/fiches2011/Rafale_G-B.pdf


*And OT, but an interesting side note:*



> In 2009, RUAG started building a Dornier 228 New Generation in Germany with the fuselage, *wings and tail unit manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Kanpur (India) and transported to Oberpfaffenhofen near Munich, where RUAG Aviation carries out aircraft final assembly*, customized equipment installation, product conformity inspection and aircraft delivery.
> The main changes from the previous Dornier 228-212 model are a new 5-blade propeller made of composite material, more powerful engines, and an advanced glass cockpit featuring electronic instrument displays.
> The Dornier 228 NG was certified by EASA on 18 August 2010. First delivery, to a Japanese customer, took place in September 2010.



http://siae.netdirect.fr/2011/sites/actu/docs/3-vol/fiches2011/Do_228-212_NG_G-B.pdf


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## sancho

> *Libya Rafale made when a 35-hour (google translated):*
> 
> During the first three months of operation Harmattan in Libya, the Rafales (Air and Marine) made over 700 sorties and a total of 3800 hours of flight - either out of an average of 5:30.
> 
> Rafales up to 28 were engaged at the same time ...compared to a figure ten Typhoon (Eurofighter) that the RAF was able to deploy a few weeks.
> 
> The planes, which availability is excellent (1), are under stress. One of them flew 140 hours in a month ... or 35 hours per week! Several have exceeded 130 hours, while the average is around 100 hours.
> 
> The Rafales have taken ten Scalp cruise missiles, bombs AASM 182 and 116 GBU, not counting the 300 out of recognition.
> 
> (1) There are only three mechanics per aircraft.
> 
> Monday, June 20, 2011
> 
> Jean-Dominique Merchet



Libye : quand un Rafale fait les 35 heures

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## sudhir007

RAF chief warns Libya stretching resources

Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is "fragile" due to sweeping defence cuts.

The head of British air force combat operations has warned that future operations will be at risk if U.K. engagement in Libya lasts through the summer.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is &#8220;fragile&#8221; due to sweeping defence cuts.

His comments in a briefing paper, leaked to Britain&#8217;s Daily Telegraph newspaper and published on Tuesday, were given to lawmakers last month, before Britain&#8217;s Navy chief Mark Stanhope said the government will face tough choices if the intervention in Libya&#8217;s civil war continues beyond six months.

Prime Minister David Cameron has insisted Britain can sustain its part in NATO operations in Libya as long as necessary.


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## jha

sudhir007 said:


> RAF chief warns Libya stretching resources
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is "fragile" due to sweeping defence cuts.
> 
> The head of British air force combat operations has warned that future operations will be at risk if U.K. engagement in Libya lasts through the summer.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is &#8220;fragile&#8221; due to sweeping defence cuts.
> 
> His comments in a briefing paper, leaked to Britain&#8217;s Daily Telegraph newspaper and published on Tuesday, were given to lawmakers last month, before Britain&#8217;s Navy chief Mark Stanhope said the government will face tough choices if the intervention in Libya&#8217;s civil war continues beyond six months.
> 
> Prime Minister David Cameron has insisted Britain can sustain its part in NATO operations in Libya as long as necessary.


 

Yes NATO strike on Libya should end..An election should be conducted instead..


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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> RAF chief warns Libya stretching resources
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is "fragile" due to sweeping defence cuts.
> 
> The head of British air force combat operations has warned that future operations will be at risk if U.K. engagement in Libya lasts through the summer.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant told lawmakers that operations in Afghanistan and Libya are placing a huge demand on equipment and personnel at a time when morale is fragile due to sweeping defence cuts.
> 
> His comments in a briefing paper, leaked to Britains Daily Telegraph newspaper and published on Tuesday, were given to lawmakers last month, before Britains Navy chief Mark Stanhope said the government will face tough choices if the intervention in Libyas civil war continues beyond six months.
> 
> Prime Minister David Cameron has insisted Britain can sustain its part in NATO operations in Libya as long as necessary.



weapons are too costly..


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## sancho

jha said:


> Yes NATO strike on Libya should end..An election should be conducted instead..


 
Buddy, Gaddafi is not dead and still in power of at least half the country and most of the military. The minute the air strikes stops, he will take all his force to attack the rebels and take them out, no matter how many civillians will die as well. If the UN resolution was to prevent a massacre in Benghazi, think about what will happen now with all the cities that the rebels captured now an, backing out now for cost reasons is a total no go!

However, back to topic!


*Rafale on the way to the static display: *








*Interesting pic of the Topsight HMS, besides Rafale models and the RE 2 AESA in the background:*












*Also a digital color HUD for the Rafale, which is studied now and could be a future upgrade:*








> *Le Bourget 2011, digital color HUD for the Rafale*
> 
> The French DGA is developping a digital color Head Up Display for the Rafale. This would be the first color HUD in the world in a fighter jet...



Rafale News: Le Bourget 2011, digital color HUD for the Rafale

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## SpArK

*Le Bourget, Paris Air Show 2011*

EFT


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## sancho

As I expected in post #1712:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-115.html#post1873397


Eurofighter sees the same difficulties with the offsets and diverting the ptoduction to India like Dassault, or Boeing:

(google translated)



> *EADS sees itself well positioned for the future*
> 
> "EADS is stronger today than before the crisis and has every reason to be optimistic." CEO Louis Gallois, an optimistic take stock of his company, as the Saturday before the Paris Airshow, the media extensively briefed on the company and its divisions be...
> 
> ...The Euro Fighter's success in India follow the further planning. The structure of industrial capacity as part of the job that would mean that 50 percent of the manufacturing done in India should be prepared. *The production in India is still not possible with today's competency, said Zoller.*



http://www.entity38.de/aerobrief/index.php?article_id=12108&issue=10471


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## marcos98

*Captor-E AESA radar on target to be operational in 2015*


> Europes Typhoon fighter will be available with an operational active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from 2015, the Eurofighter consortium has announced.



PARIS: Eurofighter to get operational AESA radar-22/06/2011-Paris-Flightglobal.com


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## sancho

*New Rafale loadouts, planed especially for the UAE:*

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## sancho

*Some more pics of the Rafale at the Paris Air Show (from Home-Army Recognition)*

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## sancho

*A nice video of Rafale weapon launches:*

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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter at The Paris Air Show: The Indian Dimension | SLDInfo

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## SpArK



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## sudhir007

Eurofighter, Dassault Submit Revised Offset Bids, Indian MMRCA Contest Enters Final Round : Defense news

Eurofighter and Dassault, the two shortlisted bidders in India's MMRCA fighter tender submitted revised offset bids on June 17 signaling the start of the final round of evaluation at the end of which one of the bidders will walk away with the $10 billion tender to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 126 (plus 66 options)Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).


A source from one of the bidders told Defenseworld.net at the Paris Air Show 2011 that the updated offset bids included individual MoUs with third part equipment providers which supply critical equipment such as engine, avionics and other critical systems. Earlier offset propsal submitted had only offset commitments on the part of the bidders who are essentially platform integrators.

The Indian MoD has not given any timeframe for their next engagement with Dassault and Eurofighter, the sources said adding that they expect to hear from the customer within the next 2-3 months. After the studying the offset proposals, the MoD will call the two bidders for final discussions on price/contract performance and select one among them.

"The revised offset bids include 50% direct engagements with Indian companies such as Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL), Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), and several other Indian private groups such as the Tatas, Mahindras, L & T and others", said the source.

The MoD had asked the two bidders to extend their commercial bids (price quote) till the end of the year. Generally, commercial bids are valid for two years from the date of the RFP.


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## SpArK

Almost a week since offset bids are placed. When is its going open..

Mr St. Antony... were are thou? Thy name shall be glorified. Choose one ASAP.


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## Tshering22

sancho said:


> *New Rafale loadouts, planed especially for the UAE:*


 
So is the UAE officially buying he Rafales or not? They've been doing the pendulum for quite sometime. That would make us the third operator of the fighter jet after France and UAE if Rafale wins. Seems like Rafale is set to take it considering that Dassault has a big presence in India and that it is cheaper than EFT. Besides, I think it perfectly meets our needs after Gripen NG's disqualification.


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## IND151

SpArK said:


> This is freaking brilliant... Rafale.. babay... ...
> 
> where is jha ,DBC and Co.


 
gone with the wind !!!!!


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Almost a week since offset bids are placed. When is its going open..
> 
> Mr St. Antony... were are thou? Thy name shall be glorified. Choose one ASAP.


 
The reports and statements of the air chief hints, that the comparison of the comercial bids will need a month, so don't expect any fast decision. 




Tshering22 said:


> So is the UAE officially buying he Rafales or not? They've been doing the pendulum for quite sometime. That would make us the third operator of the fighter jet after France and UAE if Rafale wins.


 
They are still negotiation on the price, while the side deals and the technological part of the deal (higher thrust M88, more weapon configs and radar modes) seems to be cleared now.


----------



## SpArK

*Typhoon Completes 1st Phase Of Meteor Carriage Tests​*
















Livefist: PHOTOS: Typhoon Completes 1st Phase Of Meteor Carriage Tests


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon​*










Courtesy Eurofighter GmbH

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## sancho

> *Le Bourget 2011, color HUD video*



Rafale News: Le Bourget 2011, color HUD video

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## sudhir007

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------







Rafale in paris air show
Rafale Display at Paris Air Show 2011 | Military.com

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## sudhir007

New helmet to give Typhoon pilots killer look

Eurofighter Typhoon partner nations Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy will receive futuristic new helmets that will allow pilots to take aim at enemy craft just by looking at them.

The Typhoon was designed to have its weapons systems operated by a helmet-mounted display system, but while the fighter jet entered service around 2004, the roll-out of the helmet has been slowed down by budget and design issues.

British RAF pilots tested the first helmets last summer, and while they are not being used in Libya -- where the Typhoon has flown its first combat missions -- analysts believe the conflict is speeding up their roll-out.

Built by Britain's BAE Systems specifically for Typhoon jets, the Striker helmets are tailored to each of the pilots, who have their heads scanned to ensure a perfect fit.

"The helmet gives you the edge in a dogfight; the ability to see a target and lock onto it," BAE test pilot Nat Makepeace told Reuters, adding that the helmet also improved situational awareness, crucial to fighter pilots.

So far 50 helmets have been delivered to the air forces of Italy, Germany, Spain and UK, with a delivery rate of about eight per month, Eurofighter spokesman Marco-Valerio Bonelli told Reuters. In the UK, they will be operational by the end of the year.

The helmets work by optically tracking the pilot's head movements and projecting flight data and target information onto the visor instead of the traditional head-up display (HUD).

Without the helmet, pilots have to point the nose of their jet towards the target until they can see it in the HUD. With it, they can aim at enemy jets anywhere in the sky around them.

Costing about 250,000 pounds apiece, the helmets will be deployed in all Typhoons, of which Eurofighter has delivered 278 to six air forces and has orders for 429 more.

The Typhoon is built by BAE, Italy's Finmeccanica and European aerospace and defence firm EADS.

Eurofighter puts the cost of a jet at 59 million euros (52.4 million pounds), although the UK's Committee of Public Accounts has estimated the price per plane at 126 million pounds ($202 million), based on overall costs.

Military analysts believe the helmet-mounted displays will become standard equipment for all new fighter jets.

"The future of air combat is unmanned flight, but in this last generation of manned flight, these helmets will be the only way to interface pilots with their weapons systems," Philip Stonor, former UK deputy defence attache in Paris, told Reuters.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter -- which will be the world's most advanced warplane when it goes into service later this decade -- has dropped the HUD altogether and replaced it with a helmet-mounted display connected to cameras on the outside of the jet that let the pilot literally look through the aircraft.

GROUND ATTACKS

But like the F-35 itself, developed by Lockheed Martin Corp, the new helmet has suffered technical problems, including with night vision and latency -- the delay between a pilot's head movement and the movement of the screen image.

There has even been talk of bringing the HUD back.

One of the largest players in the military helmet market is Israeli defence contractor Elbit Systems, which has built a business retrofitting helmets on existing jets.

Competition between BAE, Elbit and other helmet makers such as France's Thales focuses on making the helmets lighter, widening their field of vision, improving night and binocular vision, and simplifying connections to the plane's computer systems.

Yaron Kranz, Elbit's research and development director for helmet-mounted systems, said that while the helmets were first developed for air-to-air combat, they could also be used for air-to-ground attacks.

Just by looking at a target on the ground, pilots can lock in its GPS coordinates and fire, or even transmit the coordinates to other aircraft.

Elbit is also looking beyond military applications.

"As the fighter market becomes saturated, it is time to look at other markets: for training jets, fire fighters, search-and-rescue, even commercial avionics," Kranz said.


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## GORKHALI

Latest Rafale cockpit pics from paris airshow

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## jha

PANDORA said:


> Latest Rafale cockpit pics from paris airshow




Very good cockpit... vintage style....


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## GORKHALI

jha said:


> Very good cockpit... vintage style....


 
hehe JHA!JI expected from you ...


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Very good cockpit... vintage style....


 
Better than that Maruti-800 style .... remember?


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## Skull and Bones

SpArK said:


> Better than that Maruti-800 style .... remember?


 
Does it have a MP3 player?


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## SpArK

Skull and Bones said:


> Does it have a MP3 player?


 
ITS got I*POD*.


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## tanlixiang28776

What kind of screen is that?


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Better than that Maruti-800 style .... remember?



Cant really say its better than that...Looks more like HM Trekkers ....


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## jha

Skull and Bones said:


> Does it have a MP3 player?


 
Can be upgraded to MP3 player std. provided you pay through the nose..


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## Skull and Bones

tanlixiang28776 said:


> What kind of screen is that?


 
High definition LCD screen.


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## jha

PANDORA said:


> hehe JHA!JI expected from you ...


 
hehehe.......


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## jha

tanlixiang28776 said:


> What kind of screen is that?

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## dbc

Typhoon performing at Bangalore 2011, notice the high-alpha velocity-vector roll at 3:30 a useful close combat maneuver 

Please do not consider this my endorsement of the EF Typhoon


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## GORKHALI

*Look what i found guyzzzz...........*

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## Abingdonboy

Is it just me or but are you sick of all this game of guessing and speculation? I mean it's not since April when Eurocanards were picked but since MMRCA was started, there are 140 pages n this thread with >1700 posts and over 350 pages with >3500 posts on the Sticky MMRCA Thread. All filled with speculation and somewhat childish efforts by some members to put across the case for their favourites. 



+ I'm sorry if this rant has annoyed anyone but I just really sick of clicking on this thread and finding nothing that added any real value to the procurement.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Is it just me or but are you sick of all this game of guessing and speculation? I mean it's not since April when Eurocanards were picked but since MMRCA was started, there are 140 pages n this thread with >1700 posts and over 350 pages with >3500 posts on the Sticky MMRCA Thread. All filled with speculation and somewhat childish efforts by some members to put across the case for their favourites.
> 
> 
> 
> + I'm sorry if this rant has annoyed anyone but I just really sick of clicking on this thread and finding nothing that added any real value to the procurement.


 
Buddy, *we* can't do much other than guessing about the requirements of IAF/MoD, or the capabilities of the fighters and that's what these threads are good for. Getting infos on both fighters, or reports about the competition itself and compare them with eachother, so MMRCA gave us a good discussion base for years now. When it's over and a winner is decided, we will see the same old flame threads again, Rafale vs F16 Block 52, or Rafale vs J10B, where the national pride will have the main importance again and a discussion based on facts is not really possible.
So from this point of view, I enjoyed the MMRCA related discussions much more than Pak Fa vs J20, or JF 17 vs LCA discussions!

And to give you some info with a bit more value :



> *Indian Air Force undergoing major transformation: Air Chief to NDTV*
> 
> 
> *NDTV:* Some of the deals are always in focus... for example, the 126 fighter jets, it's been a long process... and you've had a technical re-evaluation, flight testing and now you have come down to two manufacturers. There has been a lot of speculation, a lot of writing on this - that the Americans and the Russians were very unhappy and that they in fact went to the extent of saying some of the processes were unfair... they weren't transparent enough, what do you have to say to that?
> 
> *PV Naik: *You know right in the beginning when this deal was going through, I had said that whoever we select, the others would always be dissatisfied. So I think it is a case of that. As far as the entire process of the MMRCA selection is concerned I think it is one of the finest things the Air Force has ever done. There was no security breach, a very fair treatment was given to everybody, every vendor briefed as per RFP and in fact the process has gone so well and so timely that I would like to patent that process. After all these were six of the best aircraft in the world... Unnis -Bees ka farakh, very little difference in all these, very difficult to decide which is the best, ultimately what suits our country - the best has to emerge as the best. That doesn't mean the other aircraft are bad. But these were the best-suited to our conditions and so that is how we went about the selection. The process was very elaborate. As you are aware each aircraft had 600 testing points. So the whole thing went through in a very professional manner and I must compliment the team that undertook this task - very well done.
> 
> 
> *NDTV:* Coming back to the final selection what do you think is the time frame? You had said before that it should be done very quickly and you are hopeful... do you think there is a time frame you could think of?
> 
> *PV Naik:* At present, the Technical Oversight Committee has finished their report. The report will be submitted to the Rakhsha Mantri. *Thereafter, they will open the commercial bids and decide who is the L-1 (lowest bidder) vendor. After that the CNC will start negotiations, thereafter it will go to the Finance Ministry. From Finance, it will go to CCS and after their approval, the final contract will be signed. So I think another two months is a very optimistic assessment. That is by September, I expect this deal to be signed.*
> 
> NDTV: And once the deal is signed, what is the time frame for the induction for the first aircraft that will come down?
> 
> PV Naik: That will be about three years.



Here is the related thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ndergoing-major-transformation-air-chief.html


As you can see, there are still some steps in between and they will take some times, but it seems the deal could be fixed between sept and dec this year.

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Buddy, *we* can't do much other than guessing about the requirements of IAF/MoD, or the capabilities of the fighters and that's what these threads are good for. Getting infos on both fighters, or reports about the competition itself and compare them with eachother, so MMRCA gave us a good discussion base for years now. When it's over and a winner is decided, we will see the same old flame threads again, Rafale vs F16 Block 52, or Rafale vs J10B, where the national pride will have the main importance again and a discussion based on facts is not really possible.
> So from this point of view, I enjoyed the MMRCA related discussions much more than Pak Fa vs J20, or JF 17 vs LCA discussions!
> 
> And to give you some info with a bit more value :
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the related thread:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ndergoing-major-transformation-air-chief.html
> 
> 
> As you can see, there are still some steps in between and they will take some times, but it seems the deal could be fixed between sept and dec this year.


 
Fully agree with sancho ji here mmrca threads is best thread out here where nationalism still not overwhelmed technical asspects.Love to see people putting their comments and backing their favourite as per technicality,images,pdf etc etc.


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## Abingdonboy

Fair point guys, it is unfair to attack members just for doing what this thread is meant to be- a medium for discussion. I suppose it was my impatient nature getting the better of me- it just seems this deal is never going to happen! (of course it will at some stage!)

Please don't let me get in the way of your fun- enjoy!!


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## WHITESMOKE

jha said:


>


 
Jha hi.... where to buy this kind of LCD? It looks really cool


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## SpArK

WHITESMOKE said:


> Jha hi.... where to buy this kind of LCD? It looks really cool


 
You can buy it in EFT stores. Oh wait they have issues with spares.

So should wait for some country orders.


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## brational

SpArK said:


> You can buy it in EFT stores. Oh wait they have issues with spares.
> 
> So should wait for some country orders.



I think this device can capture & decode alien conversations.. Very useful for Star Wars..


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## brational

Spectacular Cockpit of Rafale.. Very nicely designed.. I like it.. I think our Pilots will be thrilled, if Rafale gets in..


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## brational

Pinpoint strike : 3 x 2000 lbs GBU-24





Nuclear strike : 1 x ASMP-A nuclear missile (range 500 km / 300 kt warhead)


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## jha

WHITESMOKE said:


> Jha hi.... where to buy this kind of LCD? It looks really cool



You can buy this from EADS.. They used to make this in 50's.. Really glad that Dassault could finally produce this...
Way to go Dassault.. Now try to develop a Colored version of this..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> You can buy this from EADS.. *They used to make this in 50's*.. Really glad that Dassault could finally produce this...
> Way to go Dassault.. Now try to develop a Colored version of this..


 
And they are still using it for EFT...

Rafale's version is different its got color instead of EFT's _black and white_ which EFT still uses..


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## jha

SpArK said:


> And *they are still using it for EFT...
> *
> Rafale's version is different its got color instead of EFT's _black and white_ which EFT still uses..



Nah..They moved on to color in Tornado itself..These days, EFT has Plasma screen..
Rafale has colour CRT..?amazing development by Frenchies..


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## Jon Snow

brational said:


> Spectacular Cockpit of Rafale.. Very nicely designed.. I like it.. I think our Pilots will be thrilled, if Rafale gets in..


 dunno man typhoon cockpits are awesome too


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Nah..They moved on to color in Tornado itself..These days, EFT has Plasma screen..
> Rafale has colour CRT..?amazing development by Frenchies..


 
Thats cool since EFT has nt got a working AESA and all jobs are done by Tornadoes, the plasma is useful to watch some HD movies while onboard.

Rafale has LED Screen now with touch. 

If an EFT comes in that screen , the Rafale pilot just need to touch the screen and EFT goes KABOOM.


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## Jon Snow

ok seeing the two of them together - I'd have to go for the rafale cockpit as well..... eft's cockpit looked great when seen independently but comparing , it just doesnt match up to the rafale's


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Thats cool since EFT has nt got a working AESA and all jobs are done by Tornadoes, the plasma is useful to watch some HD movies while onboard.
> 
> Rafale has LED Screen now with touch.
> 
> If an EFT comes in that screen , the Rafale pilot just need to touch the screen and EFT goes KABOOM.



In EFT Pilots dont have to touch..STAR-WAR Helmets...

Coming back to AESA..Why have substandard Radar with ~840 modules when with one year gap, can have world beater radar with 1400 modules ..

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## Jon Snow

Overall- the rafale is a better option for today- but if the eurofighter fulfills all its promises for the future version (t3b), and it will if india joins the program and funds it then it will be the better option for the future


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## Jon Snow

Just became a full member and voted for -----

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## brational

Jon Snow said:


> ok seeing the two of them together - I'd have to go for the rafale cockpit as well..... eft's cockpit looked great when seen independently but comparing , it just doesnt match up to the rafale's



french r cool in avionics & designs.. The cockpit seems like a perfect gaming module.. Everything is catchy and handy.. Just a pilot is missing to do the rest.. Shooting n bombing..


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## sancho

*Pics of the Air Show, from the Dassault Aviation website:*

*Rafale Demo*







*More here:*

Galerie Photo - Photothque Dassault Aviation



*Static display*












Galerie Photo - Photothque Dassault Aviation



*Dassault Aviation booth*











Galerie Photo - Photothque Dassault Aviation



*Dassault staff *


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## sathya

EFT cockpit...






http://www.dcs-plaza.de/wp-content/uploads/ef_cockpit_02.jpg


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Rafales cockpit looks like a generation ahead.....


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Rafales cockpit looks like a generation ahead.....


 
Actually you are wrong.... the real fact is EFT's cockpit is generation ahead of Rafale... Rafale is jack of all trades.. it has everything but nothing outclasses(everything fits into Indian requirement).. but EFT is ahead in certain area(especially cockpit) but needs time and fund to improve or outclass Rafale considerably


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## sudhir007

Rafale News: Eurofighter very touchy after Rafale team claims superiority

It seems that the trench war has begun between the Eurofigter and Rafale teams. The Eurofighter web site is trying to dicard the Dassault and Thales claims stating that the European consortium was a "cooperation of incompetencies" and that the Selex AESA radar was 5 years behing the the RBE-2AESA :

"With Thales claiming to be five years more advanced in AESA radar technology than its competitors with its future Rafale radar and with Dassault claiming that the Eurofighter programme is an example of incompetencies, the French look to be on the defensive."

Well, reading this I would rather say that the Rafale team is on the offensive. Anyway, if it is true that Dassault's claim is rather crual, there is nevertheless some truth in it. Indeed, it is a known fact that the Eurofighter project has been delayed by serious technical issues due to the fact that each company involved wanted workshare on technologies they did not master. As a result, the program is very late and more expensive than the Rafale despite a much larger development team and a higher production rate.

As for the Thales statement, The first RBE-2 production radar has been delivered in 2010 and the first production Captor-E is now expected in 2014 if there is no delay. So that's, at minimum, a 4 years gap (may be not technology wise but at least in term of availability for the export market). Ok, that's not 5 years, but not far from it nevertheless. In fact the Eurofighter team is now in a hurry to field this new radar in order to keep the gap with the RBE-2 as small as possible because any delay will be seen a major setback by export customers. 

The next paragraph is an attempt to boast about the Eurofighter ecomical achievement while in fact the figures tell more about how slow and inefficient the program has been compared to the Rafale :

"For a programme like Eurofighter which has a huge economic impact in the four partner nations with 100,000 long-term jobs secured, 400 large, medium and small companies participating in the programme, 280 aircraft delivered (just six less than the total number of Rafale planned - but not ordered yet &#8211; and to be produced in total!) from a planned 707, six air force customers included two export nations, in-service in 16 units across Europe, Asia and South America, 120,000 flying hours flown, and total operational and combat proven as multi-role platform, these claims by the French look to be more a sign of weakness than of strength"
The "280 aircrafts delivered" statement is interesting because that's in fact a weakness when you consider that there are 4 assembly lines. So, that's an average of 70 planes per assembly line which is 30% less than the Rafale assembly line that has produced more than 100 aircrafts.
Then there is the wild assumption that 707 eurofighters will be ordered and produced. The reality is less shinny when all the partners nations are reducing their orders or using some of their batch as a reserve for export customers.
I will not come back on the boasting about the Eurofighter chassing sea gulls in the Falklands (South america units), nor will I smile to the "combat proven and total operational multirole platform" claim which seems a bit exaggerated for a plane that has merely demonstrated timid LGB strike capabilities. So much Eurofigters (remember, 280) in service but so few actual operational usefulness (what about stand off strike, Sead and recce capabilities ?) ... 
Eventually, such a limited achievement can only be considered as a disappointment for a workforce that large (remember, 100,000 jobs, 400 companies).

The last sentence is precious :
"So, no JSF for India, no marketing leading radar for Thales and no satisfaction for a programme like the Rafale that should concentrate on delivering a better return to the French taxpayer than on attacking its competitors."

Right, no JSF for India, but JSF for UK and Italy to fill the eurofighter capability gaps.
The French taxpayer is most probably very pleased with an aircraft that can conduct all missions, today, even from an aircraft carrier and during the first day of a conflict.

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## Jon Snow

actually the euro radar will be technologically more advanced with higher range than the rbe 2 aesa .... Also the production variant of the rbe2 might also be using american t/r modules (like the td was using)......there has been noo news that thales has developed its own t/r modules....... American t/r modules are at the whims of the americans- they can block them anytime like they did the elta 2052


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## sancho

> *The battle to sell fighter aircraft*
> 
> Ivan Gale
> Jun 27, 2011
> 
> "Incredible India" is the title of a ubiquitous advertising campaign that promises surprises around every corner, and the motto certainly applies to the country's ongoing fighter jet competition.
> 
> The American favourites, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F-18, were eliminated from the race after extensive trials.
> 
> But lesser-known jet fighters on the international export market, the French-made Dassault Rafale and the pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon, remain in the running...
> 
> ..."Fighter jet sales are always, always political matters," says Eric Trappier, the executive vice president for international business at Dassault Aviation.
> 
> Europe's success so far in the Indian market just may underscore the feeling that when it comes to defence sales, sometimes it is good not to be from the US.
> 
> Charles Edelstenne, the president of Dassault Aviation, says countries are wary of relying too much on the US, whose arms sales are heavily influenced by American policy towards the politics of potential buyers, leaving nations vulnerable if the American political landscape is changed by congressional elections.
> 
> *"India's aircraft policy is not to put all eggs in one basket - and that basket is the American basket," says Mr Edelstenne*, noting that India is already planning to spend billions of dollars on military cargo planes and helicopters from the US company Boeing.
> 
> "Even if a country receives promise of support from the US president, that doesn't guarantee you anything at all.
> 
> *"The power is in the Congress, and at any time, the Congress can change its mind, and they can decide to block armaments, spare parts, whatever they want," Mr Edelstenne says.
> 
> By contrast, Dassault and France "stay neutral", Mr Edelstenne says. "We do not have the willingness to decide on the foreign policy of our buyer. It is their policy, not ours," he says.*
> 
> In other cases, countries often chafe at the restrictions placed on exported US technology, or the lengthy approvals process required by the US government.
> 
> In a recent interview on the forum , a Pakistani F-16 fighter pilot spoke of the lengths to which the US goes to keep its technology a secret from countries such as China.
> 
> *"They have put digital seals [on] all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know," the pilot says*....



Full: The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


Again, it was the right decision to go with Europeans in MMRCA, now we just have to choose the right once!

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Full: The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National
> 
> 
> Again, it was the right decision to go with Europeans in MMRCA, now we just have to choose the* right* once!


 
Right one should be that fighter ,oops... i forgot its name , it starts with the letter *R*. 


Nope its not Raptor.. i mean the one among the last 2 short listed.

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## Jon Snow

yes, the eft has only dropped a few lgbs in libya but anything more would have been an overkill.......also what most people here are missing is the fact that the eft's being used are the tranche 2 ones while we are offered the tranch 3 which will have much better a2g capabilities- like stormshadow etc....... Libya basically has shown the combat readiness of the eft with it doing missions lasting 6-9 hrs and averaging 84 hrs a month despite there being a spares shortage....


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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> Rafale News: Eurofighter very touchy after Rafale team claims superiority
> 
> It seems that the trench war has begun between the Eurofigter and Rafale teams. The Eurofighter web site is trying to dicard the Dassault and Thales claims stating that the European consortium was a "cooperation of incompetencies" and that the Selex AESA radar was 5 years behing the the RBE-2AESA :
> 
> .


 
EADS is almost 15 times bigger then Dassault in terms of annual revenues , it's just a funny statement that AESA won't be available on time..


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> yes, the eft has only dropped a few lgbs in libya but anything more would have been an overkill.......also what most people here are missing is the fact that the eft's being used are the tranche 2 ones while we are offered the tranch 3 which will have much better a2g capabilities- like stormshadow etc...


 
So in your opinion, having a useful CAS weaponary, beeing able to do recon and deep penetration missions would be an overkill? Also, the T3A, that the EF partners ordered has not cleared any new weapon so far. The only new that are now under integrated are newer Paveway 2 versions and the Paveway 4 LGBs.




luckyyy said:


> EADS is almost 15 times bigger then Dassault in terms of annual revenues , it's just a funny statement that AESA won't be available on time..


 
Just that neither EADS, nor Dassault are the developing companies for the AESAs and even the EF consortium itself states that it is planed for 2015 only, so not available on time according MMRCA RFP.


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Actually you are wrong.... the real fact is EFT's cockpit is generation ahead of Rafale... *Rafale is jack of all trades*.. it has everything but nothing outclasses(everything fits into Indian requirement).. but EFT is ahead in certain area(especially cockpit) but needs time and fund to improve or outclass Rafale considerably


 
how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..


 
MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way... 

because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat


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## luckyyy

how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..

also , the libyan mission of rafale is over rates..
just look at these figures :
in 3 months rafale has made 700 sorties in which it fired/drop just 
 10 Scalps. 
 182 AASM bombs.
 116 GBU.

that means they only fire/drop one missile/bomd in every two missions...
it says 300 sorties were recce , does it means they firing/droping one missile/bomd after every recce sortie , 

you can't go wrong if you have to fire/drop just one missile/bomb getting information after each recce sortie ...

Rafale News: Libya, Rafale stats
do we realy say that there is a war happening in libya ?


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...
> 
> because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. *In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat*


 
how much MICA cost against R-77 ?

and in modern scenario with EWS/missile-jamming on board , the gun battles are even more likly then in last dacade..


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..
> 
> also , the libyan mission of rafale is over rates..
> just look at these figures :
> in 3 months rafale has made 700 sorties in which it fired/drop just
>  10 Scalps.
>  182 AASM bombs.
>  116 GBU.
> 
> that means they only fire/drop one missile/bomd in every two missions...
> it says 300 sorties were recce , does it means they firing/droping one missile/bomd after every recce sortie ,
> 
> you can't go wrong if you have to fire/drop just one missile/bomb getting information after each recce sortie ...
> 
> Rafale News: Libya, Rafale stats
> do we realy say that there is a war happening in libya ?


 
Actually the logic is this way... the NATO are flying to deny Air space and attack the targets which kills the civilian... It is not necessary all the time you fly you have to do bombing.. there is a high likely that in most of the mission you fly to do the above parameters and you return unsuccessful because the targets are not there...


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Actually the logic is this way... the NATO are flying to deny Air space and attack the targets which kills the civilian... It is not necessary all the time you fly you have to do bombing.. there is a high likely that in most of the mission you fly to do the above parameters and you return unsuccessful because the targets are not there...


 
the point is even after 3 months they are unsuccessful !!
US takes just 15 days to extablish a absolute air superioty over iraq , and iraq had better systems then libya....


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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...
> 
> because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat


 
AFAIK BVR missiles can be utilised in WVR range too as they will get a lock on by themselves by onboard sensors in their kill zones.


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## Jon Snow

luckyyy said:


> the point is even after 3 months they are unsuccessful !!
> US takes just 15 days to extablish a absolute air superioty over iraq , and iraq had better systems then libya....


 
Are you saying that the french or british *dont* have air superiority?? 
the whole point of getting air superiority is so that you can do a2g missions without interference from enemy fighters..... and you wont find a single libyan fighter in the skies....


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## kingdurgaking

rockstar said:


> AFAIK BVR missiles can be utilised in WVR range too as they will get a lock on by themselves by onboard sensors in their kill zones.


 
As far as i know they cant.. most of them have minimum range... below which they cant.. if you have more information please post it...

@Lucky...
Jamming is there.. but consider some missile like R-77 where it homme into the source of jamming...


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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> As far as i know they cant.. most of them have minimum range... below which they cant.. if you have more information please post it...
> 
> ...


 
Once Chogy(Ex-USAF F-15 Pilot) stated in PDF that if he tails his enemy fighter in a desert conditions, he would choose ARMRAAM over AIM-9 coz of the conditions..


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## luckyyy

Jon Snow said:


> Are you saying that the french or british *dont* have air superiority??
> the whole point of getting air superiority is so that you can do a2g missions without interference from enemy fighters..... and you wont find a single libyan fighter in the skies


 
not a single libyan fighter in the skies...which fighters were actually there , the old mig-21 , even those are captured by the rables on ground...
so was my point that mission in libya is over rated ...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...
> 
> because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat


 
MICA has Lock-On-Before and After Launch capability as well and what makes the EM version even more deadly than Derby is, that it is highly maneuverable with it's TVC capability, which normally only latest SR missiles have. The French use the same frame and propulsion for both missile seekers, what makes MICA EM one of the most maneuverable and light weight, active BVR missiles, with the downside that it don't has the range like others (AFAIK 67Km was the longest confirmed shot). At the same time, that makes MICA IR the only passive missle, that offers BVR the same Lock-On-Before and After Launch capabilities, but also the same BVR range. 
So any fighter that is loaded with MICA can use all missiles in WVR and BVR combats, while an fighter loaded with dedicated WVR and BVR missiles, often has only a 2 + 2 config. 




luckyyy said:


> how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission


 
It detects enemy radar emiters at long range with SPECTRA, get precise target data, gets into a position where the enemy can't detect it, while getting closer to it. When identification is required, SPECTRA cues the FSO TV channel on the target (ID at around 50Km, with the system offered in MMRCA even more), then it can guide MICA IR via IRST, MICA EM with the radar, or use both with the LOAL capability and guided just by SPECTRA. 
The AESA radar is used just in addition to SPECTRA, which is the prime feature/sensor of the Rafale, not to mention that the Rafale we will get will have METEOR as well, besides that it is a highly maneuverable fighter in dogfights. So there is no reason to worry about Rafale in air combats, because that was a prime design aim as well, but the French have a unique focus on multi role capability and versatility, be it on the fighters (Mirage / Rafale), or the weapons (MICA / AASM). That makes them not the best in a certain field, but the best allrounder and that is exactly what we need, when we already have the MKI and the LCA.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> not a single libyan fighter in the skies...which fighters were actually there , the old mig-21 , even those are captured by the rables on ground...
> so was my point that mission in libya is over rated ...


 
That's wrong! The Libyan air force still had fighters and helicopters, that's why the allied forces even made deep strikes on air bases in southern Libya, to take them out. Compared to the latest allied fighters they are of course no match, which is also the reason why the Libyians didn't even tried to fight against Rafales, or F15s in the initial stages of the conflict in air combats. Their air defence on the other hand was taken as more problematic, which is why not even the US F18 Growlers were used before the cruise missile strikes to weakean the SAM and radar sites. Only the French with Rafale seems to had more confidence on their fighter and systems, that's why Rafale was flying over Tripoli, or Benghazi even before these strikes in different roles.


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## angeldemon_007

Mega fighter deal to strengthen India's airspace - World News - IBNLive


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## angeldemon_007

The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


----------



## SpArK

*MMRCA deal to strengthen India's airspace​*







RAJAHMUNDRY, AP (PTI): India proposes to buy 126 fighter aircraft worth over USD 10 billion to strengthen its airspace, Union Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said Monday.

Talking to reporters here in his home district East Godavari, he said the Defence Ministry* has sanctioned over Rs 40,000 crore for the mega deal.
*
The ministry had shortlisted the European Eurofighter and the French Dassault Rafale for the 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

*Pallam Raju said he along with a five-member delegation recently visited Paris and held talks with the French officials over defence matters and other issues of mutual concern.*

*"Our talks mainly concentrated on the purchase of 126 fighter planes," he said.
*

The minister said he would be attending a business conclave being organised in California by the Telugu Association of North America (TANA) later this week.


MMRCA deal to strengthen India's airspace - Brahmand.com

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## angeldemon_007

*Hey guys have the Europeans offered us Scalp/Storm Shadow or Tauras for MMRCA contract ?*


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## Jon Snow

SpArK said:


> *MMRCA deal to strengthen India's airspace​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAJAHMUNDRY, AP (PTI): India proposes to buy 126 fighter aircraft worth over USD 10 billion to strengthen its airspace, Union Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said Monday.
> 
> Talking to reporters here in his home district East Godavari, he said the Defence Ministry* has sanctioned over Rs 40,000 crore for the mega deal.
> *
> The ministry had shortlisted the European Eurofighter and the French Dassault Rafale for the 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal.
> 
> *Pallam Raju said he along with a five-member delegation recently visited Paris and held talks with the French officials over defence matters and other issues of mutual concern.*
> 
> *"Our talks mainly concentrated on the purchase of 126 fighter planes," he said.
> *
> 
> The minister said he would be attending a business conclave being organised in California by the Telugu Association of North America (TANA) later this week.
> 
> 
> MMRCA deal to strengthen India's airspace - Brahmand.com


 
That seems to indicate that rafale has been chosen unless there is news of a similar delegation being sent to germany or britain.....


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> That seems to indicate that rafale has been chosen unless there is news of a similar delegation being sent to germany or britain.....


 
Don't think it means too much, he was seen sitting in the EF on the air show as well:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-115.html#post1874067


Just the normal PR and talks, the important things will be decided in India now.


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## marcos98

A recap :


> 5 years ago (September 1986), the Rafale A was performing its first public demonstration at the Farnborough air show in UK, only 2 months after its first flight on July 4th 1986. At that time Bae was presenting the EAP, the demonstrator which will lead to the eurofighter 8 years later


Vidéo Ina - Salon de Farnborough : Rafale contre Eurofighter, vidéo Salon de Farnborough : Rafale contre Eurofighter, vidéo - Archives vidéos : Ina.fr


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## sudhir007




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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^WOW!!!


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## sancho

Some more pics of possible Rafale upgrades from the Paris Air Show:


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## sudhir007

Rafale fighters make emergency landing - timesofmalta.com

Two French Air Force Rafale fighters landing in Malta last night after one of them reported a technical problem.

The Rafale is the most modern fighter in the French Air Force - a rival to the Eurofighter.

This was the fifth time that pairs of French military aircraft needed to make an emergency landing because of technical or fuel problems.

The French aircraft arrivals included relatively old Mirage fighters and two Super Etendard bombers.


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## Jon Snow

sudhir007 said:


> Rafale fighters make emergency landing - timesofmalta.com
> 
> Two French Air Force Rafale fighters landing in Malta last night after one of them reported a technical problem.
> 
> The Rafale is the most modern fighter in the French Air Force - a rival to the Eurofighter.
> 
> This was the fifth time that pairs of French military aircraft needed to make an emergency landing because of technical or fuel problems.
> 
> The French aircraft arrivals included relatively old Mirage fighters and two Super Etendard bombers.


 
the rafale even encountered some problems during aero india........ Hope the technical issues are nothing serious


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## jha

Jon Snow said:


> the rafale even encountered some problems during aero india........ *Hope* the technical issues are nothing serious



yes, HOPE... I dont want a one sided victory for EF..Rafale is in Top two now..They need to give a little competition to EF (even though it seems pretty hard for them )...At least this much is expected from Frenchies...


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## praveen007

jha said:


> yes, HOPE... I dont want a one sided victory for EF..Rafale is in Top two now..They need to give a little competition to EF (even though it seems pretty hard for them )...At least this much is expected from Frenchies...


. 
.
Don't wory be happy.
Because Rafale will win and there will be now contest with EF in that matter.
.


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## jha

praveen007 said:


> .
> .
> Don't wory be happy.
> Because Rafale will win and there will be now contest with EF in that matter.
> .



Dil ko behlane ko Ghalib ye khayal achha hai.


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## praveen007

jha said:


> Dil ko behlane ko Ghalib ye khayal achha hai.


.
.
Khayal achha hai.
Tabhi to baki sare competitor kchha........i mean kccha hai.


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## jha

praveen007 said:


> .
> .
> Khayal achha hai.
> Tabhi to baki sare competitor kchha........i mean kccha hai.


 
Good one...

Has the engine in the rafale started working..? I mean its thrust was pathetic...


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## Tshering22

I hope we can get either of them before we hit the two thousanth post on this thread.

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## brational

I feel, Rafale is going to be the winner. IAF is well acquited with previous dassault platform, which was highly successful. Moreover on ToT front, the french are very reliable.
Engines r also doing well and they performed very high sortie rate during Libiyan operations. But yes the MoD is there to decide, the price propositions...


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## DacterSaab

I think 1400 T/R modules for EFT is overstated compared to 800 for Rafale. 
the EFT's nose is not that large compared to Rafale's. 
As far as i think they are more or less equal Rafale's slightly 19 and EFT maybe 20 (sizewize)


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> I think 1400 T/R modules for EFT is overstated compared to 800 for Rafale.
> the EFT's nose is not that large compared to Rafale's.
> As far as i think they are more or less equal Rafale's slightly 19 and EFT maybe 20 (sizewize)


 
No it isn't the Captor E radar is estimated with a diameter of up to 700mm, which is comparable to MKI, while the RBE 2 is estimated at 550 to 600mm. But you are right, it's not mainly the size of the nose that makes the difference, but the integration of the FSO into the nose of the Rafale!


From a post I made on IDF:



> The EF was developed for cold war style air combats and that's why the development was aimed on comparable air superioirty fiighters and why the most important capabilities till today are, big radar, high speed, maximum BVR missile load and the high maneuverability of course. All this makes it to one of the best fighters in this field against all 4th, or older gen fighters, but in future, things will be different!
> Even the EF consortium understood that radar will not be very useful against 5th gen fighters and that's why other features are important to detect the enemy and that's why they also added latest IRST and EWS capabilities besides the radar:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, according the EF consortium itself, passive detection and passive SA are the important capabilities for future air combats and not the active radar!
> 
> 
> Which brings us directly to the Rafale, where you first have to understand, that the diameter of Rafales radar is not limited by the size of the nose but by the integration of FSO!
> 
> As you can see on the following pics, the FSO is fully integrated into the nose, which takes away internal space, that otherwise could be used for a bigger radar. The PIRATE of the EF on the other side, is mounted on the side of the nose, as an external part and even the retractable refuelling probe is not fully integrated, to safe more internal space:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some more pics of the RBE 2 / FSO combo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Especially this last pic, of the back side shows the difference of the diameter that the radar has in the front and that it could have without the FSO.
> Now why would the French limit their fighter in such this way and reduce the radar detection range?
> Because they understood from the start, that passive detection features and fully passive SA as an equal alternative to the radar will be important for the future!
> That why they compromised purposely on radar diameter/detection range (which doesn't tell you much about how capable the radar is), to integrate more passive sensors (IR and TV channel), as well as focus on fully passive SA and sophisticated geolocating capabilities, to remain less observable, but fully capable in air combats as well as ground strikes, without the need to use an active radar!
> 
> These capabilities had impressed in several exercises, but now even in real combat in Libya, where numerous reports are praising the the FSO / SPECTRA combo as the key advantage of Rafale! Be it the penetration of enemy airspace in reconnaissance, air superiority, or strike roles (while Libyan air defence and air force were fully operational), the long range target identification capabilities of FSO, or the passive geolocation and weapon cueing capabilities of SPECTRA in SEAD. All this was done today and with the F3 version, while India will get even the F3+ with further improved passive sensors and more capabilities in addition to the AESA radar.

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## saurav

jha said:


> Good one...
> 
> Has the engine in the rafale started working..? I mean its thrust was pathetic...


 
What ? Problems in engine ?


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> *No it isn't the Captor E radar is estimated with a diameter of up to 700mm, which is comparable to MKI*, while the RBE 2 is estimated at 550 to 600mm. But you are right, it's not mainly the size of the nose that makes the difference, but the integration of the FSO into the nose of the Rafale!:


 
thanks a lot as i understand EFT housing a large radar alone is not going to be a big capability in future unless it has better Passive sensors as well and as the size of both fighters is not much different then Rafale compromizing on Radar may allow them to form a more balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT which would be tilted towards Active Sensors?????

According to the bolded part Captor-E will be almost as capable as PAK-FA/FGFA radar????? but PAK-FA/FGFA being a larger fighter would again be able to house a much balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT???

Rafale's A2G advantages over EFT would become Negligent if India chooses EFT.

Also this tender will go to the Lowest bidder??? So doesn't that make it a giveaway there's no way EADS can out-quote Dassualt as 2 EFT = 3 Rafales costwise.

Unless the EADS have offered partnership to India which includes considerable work-share in current and future techs & a Share of profit from Future sales. Dassault's gonna find that hard to beat unless they offer partnership atleast for future upgrades but they won't do that.

I think we should go for EFT if we're offered 100% TOT / workshare in future upgrades / Immunity against Sanctions / % of gross revenue on future sales. As for keeping the French Happy we should buy 100-150 NeuroNs and Finalize Snecma-Kaveri and order more Scorpenes and a few Mistrals. oh i forgot the Fennecs and Maybe even the NH-90 if it's good enough.


----------



## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> thanks a lot as i understand EFT housing a large radar alone is not going to be a big capability in future unless it has better Passive sensors as well and as the size of both fighters is not much different then Rafale compromizing on Radar may allow them to form a more balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT which would be tilted towards Active Sensors?????



Exactly, the EF radar is very good, no doubt about that, but radar range is one of the few fields were it really is superior. The RBE 2 AESA is 3 to 5 years more mature and proven and will be fully multi mode capable when India gets the first fighters. It also detects 40 targets and can engage 8 of them, which is very high compared to other radars (Zhuk AE 30/6, APG 80 20/4), jamming features of the radar are under development and even more promising are the future upgrades with GaN modules as well as additional radar arrays for up to 360° detection, comparable to Pak Fa. 
But radar, even AESA radar will only be good against 4.5 gen fighters, or older of course, 5th gen fighters will be detected only with it only at very short ranges and that's where passive sensors, like IRST, TV, ESM/ECM... will be a way bigger advantage, not to mention that it is an advantage even today!




DacterSaab said:


> According to the bolded part Captor-E will be almost as capable as PAK-FA/FGFA radar????? but PAK-FA/FGFA being a larger fighter would again be able to house a much balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT??



I doubt that it would be as capable as the final Pak Fa radar, but comparable to a 700mm Zhuk AE in upgrade MKIs for sure. The Captor M was even pretty comparable to the Bars radar when it comes to range (estimated at 160Km vs 200Km against a target of 5m²).
The biggest advantage for Pak Fa though will be stealth, even if EF T3B would get a comparable radar, it will have a way bigger RCS, so that alone makes the EF easier to detect than the Pak Fa. The passive sensors of Pak Fa / FGFA are not clear so far, but IAF already seems to but a focus on the that as well.



DacterSaab said:


> Rafale's A2G advantages over EFT would become Negligent if India chooses EFT.



No, even if we pay all the money for the weapons and additional techs, the Rafale will remain to be the better fighter in that field. It can carry the better A2G loads, has the better weapon package and was even designed for good low level flight performance and manneuverability.
On the other side, integrate a 90kN Kaveri Snemca engine to Rafale + upgrade it with HMS + external missile stations and the EF has no advantage in A2A anymore, because the Rafale is already too close in that area. 




DacterSaab said:


> Also this tender will go to the Lowest bidder??? So doesn't that make it a giveaway there's no way EADS can out-quote Dassualt as 2 EFT = 3 Rafales costwise.



Purely based on cost, I would say yes and that's even why I say, they use the EF to pressure Dassault to lower the price even more, or give better side deals. However, the industrial and political part will play a big role as well, because getting as much as possible to improve our own industry is a key goal of the MMRCA and with such big companies like BAE, EADS, or 4 x countries, the EF has some good points in these fields.
If the industrial and political offers are that good, that the shortfalls of the fighter itself and the high costs would be worth it, the EF can win, otherwise the Rafale is the obvious choice!

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## SpArK

*Some latest Raffy Marine pics.*


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## SpArK

Saint-Dizier Airshow 2011 - Rear view of the M88-2 engine that powers Dassault&#8217;s Rafale


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## SpArK




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## GORKHALI




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## GORKHALI




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## Dalai Lama

SpArK said:


>

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sathya

NÜRNBERG, GERMANY (BNS): Germany&#8217;s Diehl Defence and Israel&#8217;s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems are designing a new glide missile that will be fitted on Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets.

The new PILUM air-to-surface missile with short to medium range has been unveiled for the first time at the Paris Air Show last month.

The new weapon is a derivative of the Diehl-designed HOSBO precision-guided bomb that has been specifically designed for Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.

The PILUM missile will use the HOSBO airframe, guidance and control section as well as the aircraft interface of the glide weapon in combination with the unique &#8220;scene-matching technology&#8221; of Rafael&#8217;s SPICE airborne system, Diehl said.

The missile will use GPS/INS guidance system and would be fitted with dual-band seeker that will help in tracking down moving enemy targets.

The PILUM missile will be used against ships, enemy radar positions as well as air defence systems. 

&#8220;This solution meets operational requirements such as close-in air support, aerial sealing off, air-based anti-ship engagement as well as suppressing and eliminating the adversary&#8217;s air defence,&#8221; the German defence firm said. 

Developed by the European consortium led by Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, the Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role combat planes are presently operational in six countries.

India has shortlisted the fighter plane for its over $10 dollar deal to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for the air force.


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## SpArK

*New glide missile to arm Eurofighter Typhoon​*






ÜRNBERG, GERMANY (BNS): *Germany&#8217;s Diehl Defence and Israel&#8217;s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems are designing a new glide missile that will be fitted on Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets.*

The new PILUM *air-to-surface missile with short to medium range has been unveiled for the first time at the Paris Air Show last month.*

The new weapon is a derivative of the Diehl-designed HOSBO precision-guided bomb that has been specifically designed for Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.

*The PILUM missile will use the HOSBO airframe, guidance and control section as well as the aircraft interface of the glide weapon in combination with the unique &#8220;scene-matching technology&#8221; of Rafael&#8217;s SPICE airborne system,* Diehl said.

The missile will use GPS/INS guidance system and would be fitted with dual-band seeker that will help in tracking down moving enemy targets.

*The PILUM missile will be used against ships, enemy radar positions as well as air defence systems. 
*
&#8220;This solution meets operational requirements such as close-in air support, aerial sealing off, air-based anti-ship engagement as well as suppressing and eliminating the adversary&#8217;s air defence,&#8221; the German defence firm said. 

Developed by the European consortium led by Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, the Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role combat planes are presently operational in six countries.

India has shortlisted the fighter plane for its over $10 dollar deal to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for the air force.

New glide missile to arm Eurofighter Typhoon - Brahmand.com


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## sudhir007

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

Europe asks Korea to join Eurofighter program

A multination consortium in Europe has invited Korea to join its high-end jet production project in an apparent attempt to win what would be Korea&#8217;s biggest arms-procurement deal.

The move came following Seoul&#8217;s announcement that it would purchase 60 advanced fighter aircraft in line with its push to shift the country&#8217;s military posture from passive defense to proactive deterrence with a projected budget of up to 10 trillion won ($8.96 billion).

&#8220;We welcome the Korean industry to participate as EADS&#8217;s full member,&#8221; Erwin Obermeier, a senior advisor of export projects at EADS, said at the International Conference for Air and Space Power held downtown Seoul last week.

&#8220;It&#8217;ll share all the benefits, knowledge and technologies of Eurofighters.&#8221;

EADS, or European Aeronautic Defense and Space, is a multi-national consortium from Germany, UK, Spain and Italy.

The largest aerospace and defense contractor in Europe reportedly offered a better deal in Korea&#8217;s last jet acquisition project in 2008 than its American competitor Boeing, but lost the bid due largely to political decisions.

Obermeier underlined that EADS&#8217;s Eurofighter program will offer a unique potential for the Korean industry to access the global market.

&#8220;The Eurofighter program is jointly owned, developed, produced, and delivered by all four European companies,&#8221; he said, suggesting that Korea will also have much to benefit by joining the consortium.

He said if Korea chooses EADS&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon, which can fly at a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 2, his company will offer Korea the chance to assemble and partly manufacture the advanced jets in Korea.

&#8220;The first 10 deliveries will be assembled in Europe, but the next 24 will be built with components manufactured in Korea,&#8221; he said, adding that the remainder will be assembled here.

He also downplayed concerns over compatibility, saying all Korean fighters and Eurofighters are built to be inter-operable in the NATO environment.

Korea has purchased 60 of the F-15s from Boeing, which won both the FX-I and II projects in 2002 and 2008.

Boeing claims that it offers the most cost-effective solution and a close partnership with Korean firms.

Roger L. Besancenez, vice president of the F-15 program for Boeing Defense, Space and Security, says his company has worked with 22 Korean companies, including Korea Airspace Industries, Korean Air, LIG Nex1 and Huneed Technologies.

Boeing has announced that it will enter the FX race in Korea with F-15 Silent Eagle, a semi-stealth fighter.

&#8220;The F-15 infrastructure already exists in Korea so supply chains for SE would be more affordable,&#8221; Besancenez said. &#8220;It is also proven to be very inter-operable with the latest Peace Eye.&#8221;

He also noted that Boeing&#8217;s SE can carry the heaviest payloads and widest variety of integrated weapons of the aircraft available in the market.

During the forum, Lockheed Martin dispelled growing criticism that it is trying to dump the first batch of F-35s fitted with only the bare minimum capabilities on Korea at an exorbitant price.

It claimed that the U.S. Air Force, which has the highest level of classified data about all high-end aircraft have chosen its F-35 over the F-15, F-16 and other jets because it judged the fourth generation fighters have reached their peak performance and they need another level of capabilities.

The Korean Air Force is seeking to purchase up to 60 advanced combat fighters.

The F-35A Lighting II is known as the only fifth-generation stealth fighter available on the market, but critics say that it has yet to prove its capabilities and may pose a risk, requiring high maintenance costs.


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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

Rafale News: Rafale A, first flight 25th anniversary

Today is the 25th anniversary of the Rafale A first flight.
The Plane took off from the Istres Air Base, piloted By Dassault test pilot Guy Mitaux-Maurouard on July 4th 1986. During this flight, which lasted 1 hour, the Rafale A reached mach 1.32, at 36,000 ft, performing maneuvers up to 5G.

Guy Mitaux-Maurouard talking about this day :
"The first Rafale flight for me... well, my first impression was like being back some years ago, during my first solo flight.at the military Air school. It was a small twin seater prop-plane and the second seat was empty... Here I was, alone. It was exactly that kind of impression : You're alone, get your in gear !
Except that, in a Rafale, during its maiden flight, you are alone in the plane, but with a lot of people behind you: All the engineers who have designed the aircraft systems, checking every parameters and alarms, vibrations and abnormal heating... Eventually, the pilot is more at ease than all these people !

Once the aircraft [Rafale] was in the air... ha ! , It was different ! The plane was on a rail !"

At the end of the flight, after a landing course of no more than 500m, Mitaux declared to Jean-Claude Hironde, Dassault technical director : " It's worked as in the books !"

Nowadays, this beautifull white bird is preserved at the Air&Space museum at Le Bourget airfield near Paris. It has been completely restored and is displayed next to its big brother, the Mirage 4000.


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## sudhir007

Israel, Germany developing smart missile for Eurofighter | idrw.org

Israel and Germany are jointly developing a smart missile that could be sold together with the Eurofighter currently in service worldwide, including in Saudi Arabia.The air-to-ground missile, called PILUM, is under development by Israel&#8217;s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Germany&#8217;s Diehl, and is based on Rafael&#8217;s Spice missile which has the reported ability to hit targets while aircraft are positioned at a standoff range of 100 kilometers away.The twin-engine Eurofighter is currently in use in the UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, Austria and Saudi Arabia. It was unclear if the new missile would be offered to all Eurofighter operators &#8211; including Saudi Arabia &#8211; or if Israel would condition its participation in the development on banning the missile from being sold to Arab countries.

The new missile is unique in its ability to hit targets by using a GPS satellite guidance system, or alternatively with electro-optical guidance &#8211; meaning that the pilot or navigator can direct the missile towards its target by watching live video footage as the missile speeds towards it.

Diehl said that the dual-targeting systems make the PILUM an ideal weapon for use in operations when targets are on the move. The Spice is operational in the Israeli Air Force and is configured to be launched from F- 16 and F-15 fighter jets.

The PILUM, Diehl said, could be used against ships, enemy radar positions as well as air defense systems.

&#8220;It opens new possibilities of flexible mission planning and execution in view of rapidly changing air-to-ground scenarios,&#8221; the German company said.

A decision to develop the new missile was concluded a few months ago and a sketch of it was unveiled in late June at the Paris Air Show.

The primary advantage of the missile is the ability to use two different systems to bomb targets. For example, in the event that satellite systems are not working during a future conflict, an operator will be able to upload a picture of a target into the missile, which, using unique scene-matching algorithms, adjusts the missile&#8217;s flight path to find the target.

In related news, Der Spiegel reported Sunday that Germany has decided to sell more than 200 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia in a multi-billion dollar deal.

A German government spokesman declined to comment on the report that said Saudi Arabia was interested in acquiring more than 200 2A7+ tanks, saying the government provided no information on decisions regarding export deals.

The tanks are made by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall.

Der Spiegel said Saudi Arabia has long sought the Leopard tanks from Germany, but the country had repeatedly turned down the requests, citing a danger to Israel.

The report said the government no longer considered Saudi Arabia a threat for Israel.


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## Roybot

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Phwaaaar, what a beast!

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## sancho

*Rafale formations:*

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## Kirandbl

I still feel Su-30mki is much more beautiful....


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## DacterSaab

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Is that a prototype or something???? it's nose is very different from Rafale's?


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Is that a prototype or something???? it's nose is very different from Rafale's?


 
Yes, the first prototype Rafale A and not only the nose, but the fighter as a whole was a bit larger than it is in the final version. Check the first 2 pics in my last post!


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## sudhir007

New CAPTOR Radars to Equip Typhoons: Armed Forces Int. News

New radar technology is set to be integrated into the newest Typhoons to enter service with the air forces of the four nations that developed the aircraft.

The development of this radar system will begin this month and it's set to reach operational status in four years time.

Spanish, German, Italian and British Typhoons are currently equipped with the CAPTOR-M radar. From 2015 onwards, those delivered within the Tranche 3 programme will, instead, get CAPTOR-E radars, incorporating AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) features.

*New CAPTOR Radars*

These new CAPTOR radars boast no less than 1,425 TRMs (Transmit and Receive Modules) and, once fitted to the Typhoons, will enhance the range of their AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) and speed up the airborne target/threat detection and pursuit processes, at cheaper cost.

&#8216;After one year of industry funding, the Eurofighter and Euroradar consortia have received renewed strong support from the partner nations and have agreed to continue the full scale development programme of the next generation E-Scan radar, confirming the 2015 entry into service date', the Eurofighter consortium, which manufactures the Typhoon, said in a statement.

*New Typhoon Radar Equipment*

It is expected that the addition of this new Typhoon fighter radar equipment will result in increased foreign sales and Eurofighter has stressed that the radar system can be modified, according to individual customer requirements.

&#8216;The new radar will offer customers the freedom to retrofit their existing Typhoons when required', Eurofighter confirmed. &#8216;The radar will have significant growth potential and both existing and new customers will be able to participate in tailoring the radar to meet their individual operational requirements.

&#8216;The new AESA Radar is part of the platform and systems enhancement ongoing with Eurofighter to ensure Typhoon leads the way as the world's best new generation multi-role combat aircraft.'

The Typhoon currently serves with the Royal Air Force, the Italian Air Force, the German Air Force, the Spanish Air Force and the Austrian Air Force.

*The Indian Air Force could join this list if it selects this design over the French-built Dassault Rafale fighter. In either case, India requires 126 new multirole combat aircraft and is on the verge of placing its biggest ever arms order.*


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## sudhir007




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## sudhir007

Eurofighter Eyes HARM Missile For Typhoon | AVIATION WEEK

The Eurofighter consortium is taking steps to prepare integration of the AGM-88 High-Speed Anti-Radiation (Harm) missile on the Typhoon fighter.

*The preliminary work will help support Typhoon&#8217;s export campaign in India, which has expressed interest in the suppression of enemy air defense (SEAD) weapon. Typhoon is competing against the Dassault Aviation Rafale to win India&#8217;s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program.*

*If the program goes forward, India would likely be the first country to employ Harm from the Typhoon. The anti-radar missile would likely be carried on the outer wing-stations.*

The existing electronic support measures system on Typhoon would likely support the targeting of Harm, although it may require some upgrades, program officials note. Eventually, the targeting accuracy could reach the same level now provided by the Tornado ECRs, versions of the interdiction aircraft Germany and Italy use for SEAD roles, Eurofighter officials say.

Also in development is a more extensive upgrade of the Reccelite reconnaissance pod for Typhoon. The Eurofighter consortium already showcased basic functionality of Reccelite for the Swiss fighter competition, although at the time a more basic integration was used with the reconnaissance system controlled via laser-designator pod functionality. Now, a fuller integration is being sought.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK



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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> New CAPTOR Radars to Equip Typhoons: Armed Forces Int. News
> 
> *New CAPTOR Radars*
> 
> These new CAPTOR radars boast no less than 1,425 TRMs (Transmit and Receive Modules) and, once fitted to the Typhoons, will enhance the range of their AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) and speed up the airborne target/threat detection and pursuit processes, at cheaper cost.


 
Typhoons CAPTOR AESA radars with 1,425 TRMs ..

v/s

Rafale's RBE2 AESA with 850 T/R ..

intresting !!


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## dbc

luckyyy said:


> Typhoons CAPTOR AESA radars with 1,425 TRMs ..
> 
> v/s
> 
> Rafale's RBE2 AESA with 850 T/R ..
> 
> intresting !!


 
But the Rafale is way cuter


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## sancho

Some infos of MICA from the MBDA-Systems site:


*MICA *



> Main features
> 
> *MICA has a totally dual role. It is able to cope with both BVR and SR combat situations with very high performance in both roles.
> MICA covers Beyond Visual Range situations offering additionally 2 guidance systems with its 2 interoperable seekers:*
> 
>  RF MICA with radar seeker providing all weather shoot-up / shoot down capability
>  IR MICA with dual waveband imaging infrared seeker surpassing latest generation AAM missiles. *It additionally outdoes any BVR missile with its unique stealthy interception capability authorized by its silent seeker.*
> 
> In SR combat situations, combination of LOAL mode and excellent acquisition and tracking performance authorize 360° launch envelope with first shoot / first kill capability *even in case of a threat in backward sector.*



http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/mica_ds.pdf

Some graphics showing how MICA can be used, even against targets on the six, guided by radar data of a 2nd fighter, via data link:

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## sancho

Nice pics of Rafale with Scalp cruise missile:
























No real pics of EF with similar Storm Shadow, but at least with Taurus, displayed on the ground...:











...unlike the Gripen, that actually tested it:

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## sancho

And some pics of Rafale with CFTs that AFAIK, wasn't posted here so far:

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## rcrmj

Libya war showcased Rafale's multi-role capability, it is a capable fighter, india should buy it`


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## Ajaxpaul

@ sancho..nice pictures..where do you get them?

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## sancho

ajaxpaul said:


> @ sancho..nice pictures..where do you get them?


 
Except of the CFT pics, I found all of them here:

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles


There are also nice pics and videos with AASM, or METEOR.

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## sancho

Some days ago it was South Korea, now the EF consortium is pushing the EF in Japan:



> *Eurofighter Working to Strengthen Strategic Partnership with Japan*
> 
> 13:55 GMT, July 7, 2011 Tokyo, Japan | Reflecting the strong commitment to deepen the strategic partnership with Japan, the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH will for the first time hold a board meeting in Tokyo. Senior executives from Eurofighter partner companies (BAE Systems, Alenia Aeronautica, and Cassidian in Spain and Germany) are visiting Japan from 5 July to 8 July to discuss the status of the Eurofighter Typhoon F-X campaign and strategic next steps, and to hold talks with Ambassadors of the four consortium member-nations &#8211; the U.K., Germany, Italy and Spain.
> 
> Eurofighter, its partner companies and the four member-nations are working to strengthen industrial and technological relations with Japan. All four partner countries are supporting and are committed to the Eurofighter F-X campaign, which is being led by the U.K. government and BAE Systems...



defence.professionals | defpro.com


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## Ajaxpaul

sancho said:


> Except of the CFT pics, I found all of them here:
> 
> Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles
> 
> 
> There are also nice pics and videos with AASM, or METEOR.


 
videos are awesome. bookmarked it. thanks!!


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## The_Sidewinder

sancho said:


> Nice pics of Rafale with Scalp cruise missile:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No real pics of EF with similar Storm Shadow, but at least with Taurus, displayed on the ground...:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...unlike the Gripen, that actually tested it:


 
thnxx for sharing sir....U and DBC are my favorite members in Pdf. Cheers.

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## The_Sidewinder

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> But the Rafale is way cuter


 
Couldnt agree more. To things i love the most. 
One is My Pulsar 220 and Others is Rafale.


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## SpArK

*Liam Fox promotes Typhoon in India
​*08 July 2011 

Defence Secretary Liam Fox has met with senior Indian defence and security officials in a bid to strengthen ties between the two countries and promote the selection of Eurofighter for India's multi-role combat aircraft contract.

The Ministry of Defence said the visit underlines that defence was a "fundamental pillar" of the "enhanced partnership" between the UK and India set out by Prime Minister David Cameron and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last July.

Fox also promoted the Eurofighter Typhoon as the decision on which aircraft is to form the country's MRCA contract approaches. 

The competition, which is due to be decided this year, is now said to be between the Typhoon and Dassault's Rafale.

Fox met India's Defence Minister Shri A K Antony and National Security Adviser Shri Shiv Shankar Menon in Delhi to discuss defence industrial co-operation, and the MRCA contract.

"In today's world of multi-layered security and economic interdependence the UK and India are looking for relationships that are built on partnership and respect, not one-off transactions," said Fox.

"The Eurofighter Typhoon not only provides India with cutting-edge operational capability, but also unmatched potential for an enduring strategic partnership in developing future defence technology."

In addition to defence industrial issues, the ministers discussed counter-piracy operations in the Indian Ocean and long-term stability in Afghanistan.

Liam Fox promotes Typhoon in India - Defence Management


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## GORKHALI

The_Sidewinder said:


> thnxx for sharing sir....U and DBC are my favorite members in Pdf. Cheers.


 
And what about *PANDORA AND SPARKY* ???? P

NOW GO AND ENJOY

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## The_Sidewinder

PANDORA said:


> And what about *PANDORA AND SPARKY* ???? P
> 
> NOW GO AND ENJOY


 
hi hi hi

U two r no 3 and 4 in my list

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## marcos98




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## SpArK



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## SpArK

*Difficult negotiation of the Rafale in the UAE
​*
Note: Translated news.. gramatical errors are present.









After conducting exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation for the purchase of Rafale multirole fighter, the UAE Air Force had begun to explore other options for its future combat aircraft.

Initiated four years ago, negotiations with the French group have still not been completed, opening the competition to Lockheed Martin, said a source at Abu Dhabi.* The source said that Abu Dhabi UAE complained repeatedly to the lack of flexibility of the French industry in the negotiations on the Rafale, while the multiple interventions of President Sarkozy failed to overcome the difficulties.*

*Apart from the issue price of the aircraft, the problems focus on four applications of Emiratis: providing a more powerful team than the one currently the Rafale, the recovery of their Mirage 2000-9 (numbering 62) and ability to use weapons of 2000-9 on the Rafale.
*


*During his last visit to Abu Dhabi, the French Minister of Defence, Gerard Longuet, would have presented a new offer, at a total price of nine billion euros. This is the third offering, the first having been encrypted and the second thirteen billion to ten billion.
*


The Elysee Palace would have asked the member firms of the Rafale Team to work together so that each takes his share of the additional discount of one billion euros. For his part,* Abu Dhabi still sticking to a budget of seven billion.
*

Thus* taking advantage of the disagreement between the French and UAE, the U.S. administration has pushed the option Lockheed Martin, who managed to open negotiations with the UAE to assess their needs. The U.S. group proposes, for its part, the combat aircraft of the fifth generation F-35 JSF.
*

*Knowing he can not deliver this unit in 2020 (earliest), given the delay in the program, Washington would have offered to supply Abu Dhabi, meanwhile, the F-16 Block 60 extra*. The UAE air force currently has 80 aircraft of this type. The Americans have even offered to deliver F-16 used in the USAF, by bringing them to Block 60 standard, to overcome the hole capability, waiting to deliver all the F-35. Washington will then take over all the F-16 As the new aircraft will be delivered.

While the French negotiators felt that the opening of discussions with *Lockheed Martin was only a means to pressure them, the progress of these discussions indicates that they may well succeed. Especially since just launched the modernization of weapons systems by the UAE Mirage 2000-9, which removes the prospects for recovery by France required in case of purchase of the Rafale.*

If the mission of Team Rafale seems to be complicated, it is nevertheless doubtful that the offer of F-35 Lockheed final respects to the envelope of $ 7 billion available to the UAE.


Rafale EAU 80711

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## Jakes

Rafale is excellent fighter tested and implemented.

they buy Rafale or Euro fighter doesn't matter both are modern and most advanced. With those aircrafts they will also get the technology is very valuable.

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## SpArK




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## SpArK

*India needs defence partners not suppliers: Liam Fox
​*

_*Investing in the Eurofighter would give India a relationship with "partners of choice" in global security, says British defence secretary Liam Fox. In an exclusive conversation with TOI, Fox also said that while China is seen as an emerging superpower, the UK was looking closely at how Beijing manages its internal challenges.*_ 

Excerpts: 

*Q: You have been promoting the Eurofighter in your meetings with the Indian leadership. Why is it a better deal? 
*


A: We shouldn't see this as simply an aircraft. It's about buying into a strategic relationship. Britain's approach to these things has been too transactional in recent years. But what we now need to do is think strategically, think about interoperability, about our partners of choice in global security. Start to recognize that India wants partners not suppliers. In terms of the aircraft itself of course, we've just been using it in Libya. That's the first time we have used it in combat. We have been extraordinarily impressed by its capability and availability. *India would be building a relationship with four European partners - it would be buying into that in terms of strategic outlook. Especially, when you've got countries like Britain who are very open in terms of their defence market. I mean it gives you a much better chance in terms of a constructive longer term relationship, to technology transfer. France, for instance, has a completely closed defence industrial sector. *

*Q: Will we have to pay a whole lot more for the Typhoon and what do we get for that much more? *

A: _In defence you tend to not get the best for the lowest price. So, if you want a quality product you have to pay a reasonable price._ We've chosen Typhoon in the UK because we believe the best serves our interest in the years ahead. We plan to eventually phase out the Tornados and use Typhoons in the multi-role capability. We've also packed in the world's first second generation e-scan radar, the most advanced of its type. 

*Q: India is looking at this deal to also help build its indigenous defence industry. How can you help?* 

A: We shouldn't be looking at this as a simple transaction of a single item. Over time - as India's defence industry develops we will share technologies, we have a genuine partnership. That will take time. We expect to have Typhoons for a long time in the UK. *Ultimately, we're looking at two types of fast jets - Joint Strike Fighter and the Typhoon. That would be what the RAF would want in terms of capability. *

We've just completed a major defence review &#8211; of all types of equipment and all the forms available to it. And we decided to phase out Harrier, although it had previously done great service, because it didn't have the future capabilities that we wanted. We will eventually phase out Tornado as Typhoon takes on an even greater multi-role capability. 

Given what it has shown so far in Libya, looks like we've bet on the right horse. 

*Q: China too has an ambitious defence agenda and capability. Do you look at it as an opportunity or a challenge? *

A: Both, I think. China is developing a lot of military capability. There is no reason to suspect it's a threat to our security. Indeed, in things like blue water naval capability they have an absolute right internationally to do so. Obviously economically China is still an opportunity. But we always are watching to see how China develops internally. Its response to some of the big challenges it has demographically, and in terms of natural supplies, not least water. Although we often see China as an emerging superpower, it is in many ways, struggling as a developing economy with issues of mass poverty. So I think that with China we have to watch and encourage it to go in the right direction. 

*Q: What's the prognosis in Libya and are you at a stalemate? *

A: I don't think we can call it a stalemate. When we began, the population of Benghazi were under threat of a humanitarian disaster. The people of Misrata have come under bombardment from the mountains. We've now got a substantial portion of the country free from the regime. We've taken out the command and control capabilities of the regime, we're increasingly taking out their intelligence operations. In other words the things that underpin the Libyan state of Gaddafi. It would end tomorrow if Gaddafi recognizes there is no future for his regime. 

*Q: How does this end? *

A: It ends with the Libyan people being saved. It's about protecting civilians. The NTC (National Transitional Council) have made it clear that the people would not be saved if Gaddafi was still in office. He must leave office. How much of the regime continues alongside the NTC and whatever transitional government happens is for the Libyan people, not for us. What happens to Gaddafi, whether he goes into exile, into another country to the ICC, these are things for the next government to decide. We mustn't be too prescriptive about it. 

*Q: Will the aerial operations continue until a new government is in place?* 

A: When Gaddafi's forces stop firing on the civilians. It's very simple. But we're still seeing operations mounted against opposition forces. But they are much less capable than they were in doing so. And we will continue to degrade their capabilities as long as it poses a threat and we have the will and capability to do so. The key element will be when the people around Gaddafi recognize that he is no longer worth investing in, because sooner or later, whether it's a week, or a month or more, he will be gone. So getting them to recognize that it's in their best interests, more important for the interests of the Libyan people. 

*Q: You have a withdrawal of troops in Afghanistan too. What kind of a presence will you have there ultimately? 
*
A: We have a force of 9500. We're only withdrawing 500 by end of 2012. It's a very modest reduction, taking account of the increasing capability of the Afghan national security forces. If you talk to our commanders who work with them, they will tell you that not only have they increased in number but they say they're very quick learners. 

*Q: What's your position on the reconciliation with the Taliban? 
*
A: That's an Afghan government issue. But we have said where there are those willing to reconcile with the Afghan constitution, stick by the norms asked of them. However, there will be those who are irreconcilable and who will be never sign up to a fundamentalist, Islamist movement. They will provide a constant threat to the people of Afghanistan and we will have to deal with them militarily. But I think the growing signs the Afghans themselves want to take on a faster and deeper role in their sovereignty and we should welcome that. 

I met with NSA and will speak to the defence minister this afternoon. Again this conversation is part of regional security and the point I made this morning is that in the interdependent global economy we no longer have the security silos in different parts of the world. Instability here as we saw in 9/11 can cause destruction in different parts of the world. We have to develop partnerships for regional security looking not five years into the future but 15-20 years ahead. 

*Q: Piracy in the Indian Ocean is a chief concern for Indian security establishment. Did that come up in your conversations? 
*

A: We have a conversation on a daily basis on piracy. We've seen an interesting model. We've seen in the response to piracy off the Somalian coast &#8211; we've seen NATO, European Union, UN, non-aligned countries because all have a common purpose &#8211; protection of the sea lanes on which trade depends. And it was organic. We didn't invent a structure and hoped that the effect would follow. There should be a lesson for that in global security and how we develop strategic partnerships so people can have a flexible response to problems. In the naval arena again joint capability and interoperability are quite important. 

*Q: Is India ready to work on interoperability? 
*

A: We're looking at the concept of building a new fighter vessel, called a global combat ship, which we want to have other countries in at the beginning of the project rather than merely making something and selling something. We would like our partners to help us develop something that would suit their interests. So that even though we might have variants of the same basic ship, we would have interoperability. If we have a strategic relationship, we need to have openness. 

*Q: Are you encouraged by India's response? 
*

A: I think its something the Indian government will think about. Basically, we're trying to find countries that show an interest in it. We've got a basic design and I hope it's something the Indian government would think about as part of a wider strategic relationship given that it's likely to include a number of other countries. 

*Q: You will be visiting Sri Lanka. What's your message to them? 
*

A: I think the government there is at a crossroads. They need to decide whether with the end of LTTE they should now come to terms with that element of their history, assess where mistakes were made, ask questions openly, if there are individuals to he held to account, do it in a transparent way and move into situation where they can become a valued member of the international family of nations. This is a time of choice for them. They have a huge amount potentially to offer, in terms of their development, the role they can play in the region. I want them to become Malaysia not Myanmar. 

*Q: What is your vision for the larger India-UK defence relationship? 
*

A: We share a lot of common global security analysis. That's the first - we have a common view of the world. We want to see it outward looking, free trade and that obviously requires a level of protection. 

*Q: Do we see it governed by a single global structure or single global superpower?* 

A: No. We would describe it as multi layered security approaches. 

*Q: Is there a place for India and UK? 
*

A: Absolutely. We also have a lot of shared military common experience. We can offer cooperation that will gradually help India's indigenous defence sector develop. Not overnight, but over time. We obviously have, as the world's fourth biggest military budget, quite a lot of expertise. So I think there's a lot for both of us. 

*Q: What would Britain get out of it? 
*

A: *Britain would get a partner in a region of the world which is quite important for our security and our prosperity. We are no longer a nation that can patrol the world on our own but working with like-minded countries to develop a security strategy over time makes perfect sense.* Our relationship of mutual dependence is usually a strong basis for cooperation. 

Thank you.



India needs defence partners not suppliers: Liam Fox - The Times of India


----------



## Jon Snow

so the french are asking for 9 billion euros for 62 rafale???thats 12.8 billion dollars...... 200 million per rafale.
Who says the rafale is cheaper than eft???


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## SpArK

*Industrial Policy Cost U.S. the Indian Fighter Deal​*
On Oct. 4, 1957, Sputnik 1 was launched into orbit by the Soviet Union, beating the United States to the punch and sending shock waves through the American military, space and science communities. Why had we failed and the Soviets succeeded? What was wrong with our space program?

*The recent decision by India to reject American warplanes in favor of potentially one or another European group (either the Eurofighter consortium or France's Dassault) has created an uproar in the U.S. with eerie parallels to 1957. How did we fail? What went wrong?
*


*In only took a matter of a few hours for the pundits to respond, with a National Defense Industry Association blog declaring that the problem was U.S. export controls. President Barack Obama is reforming them, says the blog, but obviously not fast enough given what happened in India. Yet the blog also points out that Obama himself was personally involved, pushing India to buy either the F-16 from Lockheed Martin or the F-18 from Boeing. Since the president can waive just about any export control he wants, why was there no sale?*

Maybe he does not want to waive export controls because the real problem was not truly an export control issue. Was it something else? *The U.S. could have offered India the F-35, instead of the F-16 or F-18. Or it could have gone even further and offered the F-22, in which India may have been interested.*

*In fact, Japan also wanted the F-22 but was told to forget it. Now, the Japanese aren't sure if they really want the F-35 as a substitute because it is less of a strategic airplane and its stealthiness con-strains what it can do. And the U.S. was not in the least ready to share technology on the F-35 or F-22 with India.*

*You cannot attribute the U.S. decisions in regard to either Japan or to India as export control decisions. They are policy decisions, and in both cases, the policy decisions reflect strong opinions in the Defense Department, particularly inside the Air Force, as well as in industry.
*

*U.S. industry is wary of sharing front-line technology with potential competitors. Not only does such sharing create future competitive issues, demands for industrial-sharing deals and cooperation on future development, but it also eats heavily into potential earnings.*

The lucrative parts of aircraft deals are found in the integration of systems and the sensors and computers that control the flight, combat and protective systems. Give those away and it hits on earnings, because systems are much more expensive than parts, and there is much more value added for the manufacturing company.

In this light, it is understandable that aerospace companies are trying to hold onto, as tightly as possible, the integrating elements and know-how of their systems, because that is where present and future profits are going to come from. To some unstated degree, they use government policy and export controls as a way to buttress their industrial position. Strangely, in this context, export reform can work against, rather than on behalf of, their enterprises.

U.S. defense policy, as murky as it often appears, nonetheless tends to track the needs of industry better than even industry is willing to admit. The U.S. government is, despite the propaganda, market oriented. You cannot generate $46 billion in foreign military sales to U.S. clients abroad and be bad at marketing. Nor can you do it if you have a lousy export control system that is too restrictive.

It is illogical to claim there is a major barrier from export controls. The empirical evidence says the reverse. And it makes you wonder if those who are saying so have tongue in cheek.

The U.S. is the world's biggest arms exporter, dominating the global marketplace. And that is good, but it is also a problem.

*The problem is that a dominant force like the U.S. is used to dictating deal terms: Here is what we can offer, take it or leave it. The struggles over technology access to the F-35 among key allies, especially the United Kingdom, amply illustrate the U.S. posture, its lack of flexibility, and how an industrial and political giant can use its strategic leverage to make sales even when the customer finds the terms less than ideal.*

*One of the reasons for the current Sputnik shock is that India is not truly a client of the United States yet. It has a lot of independence and flexibility. And it seems India is not afraid to reject a deal it does not like.*

The U.S. needs to work through the industrial policy DoD and industry are following, often linked arm and arm. It has conferred many benefits, but the world is changing rapidly. In an era in which defense spending on new systems is rapidly eroding, and in which exports potentially can count a lot for sustaining the American defense sector, new models of engagement and approaches are needed. Just talking about reforming export controls is wide of the mark. We need to do a lot better.

Stephen Bryen, former U.S. deputy undersecretary of defense for trade and security policy, and founder and first director of the Defense Technology Security Administration.

Don't Blame Export Control - Defense News

Reactions: Like Like:
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## The_Sidewinder

Jon Snow said:


> so the french are asking for 9 billion euros for 62 rafale???thats 12.8 billion dollars...... 200 million per rafale.
> Who says the rafale is cheaper than eft???


 
Where did you get that from???


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## Jon Snow

The_Sidewinder said:


> Where did you get that from???


 


SpArK said:


> *Difficult negotiation of the Rafale in the UAE
> ​*
> Note: Translated news.. gramatical errors are present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After conducting exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation for the purchase of Rafale multirole fighter, the UAE Air Force had begun to explore other options for its future combat aircraft.
> 
> Initiated four years ago, negotiations with the French group have still not been completed, opening the competition to Lockheed Martin, said a source at Abu Dhabi. The source said that Abu Dhabi UAE complained repeatedly to the lack of flexibility of the French industry in the negotiations on the Rafale, while the multiple interventions of President Sarkozy failed to overcome the difficulties.
> 
> Apart from the issue price of the aircraft, the problems focus on four applications of Emiratis: providing a more powerful team than the one currently the Rafale, the recovery of their Mirage 2000-9 (numbering 62) and ability to use weapons of 2000-9 on the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> *During his last visit to Abu Dhabi, the French Minister of Defence, Gerard Longuet, would have presented a new offer, at a total price of nine billion euros. This is the third offering, the first having been encrypted and the second thirteen billion to ten billion.
> *
> 
> 
> The Elysee Palace would have asked the member firms of the Rafale Team to work together so that each takes his share of the additional discount of one billion euros. For his part,* Abu Dhabi still sticking to a budget of seven billion.
> *
> 
> Thus taking advantage of the disagreement between the French and UAE, the U.S. administration has pushed the option Lockheed Martin, who managed to open negotiations with the UAE to assess their needs. The U.S. group proposes, for its part, the combat aircraft of the fifth generation F-35 JSF.
> 
> 
> Knowing he can not deliver this unit in 2020 (earliest), given the delay in the program, Washington would have offered to supply Abu Dhabi, meanwhile, the F-16 Block 60 extra. The UAE air force currently has 80 aircraft of this type. The Americans have even offered to deliver F-16 used in the USAF, by bringing them to Block 60 standard, to overcome the hole capability, waiting to deliver all the F-35. Washington will then take over all the F-16 As the new aircraft will be delivered.
> 
> While the French negotiators felt that the opening of discussions with Lockheed Martin was only a means to pressure them, the progress of these discussions indicates that they may well succeed. Especially since just launched the modernization of weapons systems by the UAE Mirage 2000-9, which removes the prospects for recovery by France required in case of purchase of the Rafale.
> 
> If the mission of Team Rafale seems to be complicated, it is nevertheless doubtful that the offer of F-35 Lockheed final respects to the envelope of $ 7 billion available to the UAE.
> 
> 
> Rafale EAU 80711


 
there you go - french offering 62 rafale for 9 billion euros


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## IND151

is there double seated version of EFT?


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## Abingdonboy

IND151 said:


> is there double seated version of EFT?


 
Yes, there is:


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## RPK

*U.K. Supports Eurofighter For Indian MMRCA*

Jul 11, 2011

U.K. Supports Eurofighter For Indian MMRCA | AVIATION WEEK




By Jay Menon

NEW DELHI &#8212; Britain has outlined its strong support for the Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s bid for the Indian air force&#8217;s $11 billion Medium-Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, as the U.K. seeks to advance its defense industrial cooperation with the country.

&#8220;The Eurofighter Typhoon not only provides India with cutting-edge operational capability, but also unmatched potential for an enduring strategic partnership in developing future defense technology,&#8221; said U.K. Defense Secretary Liam Fox after a meeting with Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony in New Delhi July 8.

According to a British High Commission statement, Fox&#8217;s visit to India underlines the commitment at the highest levels of the British and Indian defense establishments to ensure that defense cooperation is a fundamental pillar of the enhanced partnership between the U.K. and India as set out by U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last July.

&#8220;In today&#8217;s world of multi-layered security and economic interdependence, the U.K. and India are looking for relationships that are built on partnership and respect, not one-off transactions,&#8221; Fox says.

The Tyhpoon is pitted against French company Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale for the MMRCA program. Indian authorities are set to open final bids for the 126-aircraft order.

The Eurofighter consortium comprises Italy&#8217;s Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems of the U.K., EADS CASA and EADS Germany. Recently, France and Germany also made last-ditch efforts to boost their companies&#8217; chances to win the fighter program.

French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet had pitched the Rafale during his visit to New Delhi in May, and the Eurofighter Typhoon topped the agenda during German Chancellor Angela Merkel&#8217;s discussions with Prime Minister Singh on May 31. German Defense Minister Thomas de Maizere also met Antony on May 31.

EADS has even invited India to become a partner for the Typhoon program if the aircraft wins the contract. Eurofighter&#8217;s offer to establish a production line in India could give it an edge.

The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000. The Indian air force has similar fighters, and the Rafale&#8217;s inclusion would require fewer changes in existing infrastructure.


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## SpArK

*IAF to brief Lockheed Martin
​*
NEW DELHI (PTI): Lockheed Martin, one of the two US companies which lost out in the bid for the 126 combat aircraft deal, is expected to be conveyed the reasons for it by the Indian Air Force (IAF). 

The IAF is expected to brief Lockheed Martin Tuesday in detail about the reasons of their exclusion for which the request is understood to have been made by the US government, defence sources told PTI here.

The two aircraft were offered to the IAF through the Foreign Military Sales route in which the supplier of military hardware is the US government itself.

In April, India had shortlisted Dassault and Eurofighter for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal and excluded the two American companies along with Russian MiG Corporation and Swedish Saab Gripen.

*After receiving communication in this regard, the US had said it was "deeply disappointed" over the rejection and Boeing had also sought a debrief from the IAF.

The IAF had said it had tested the six participating aircraft extensively on 643 parameters and all of them were told about their performance in the field trials as the process moved forward.*

IAF to brief Lockheed Martin - Brahmand.com


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## SpArK

*Hornet Buffs Up
​*






*The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was not supposed to live this long. But with the latest slippages in the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program and aging fighter forces worldwide, Boeing talks about stretching production to 1,000 aircraft and keeping the line open to the end of the decade, despite the recent loss in India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition. The program is close to 700 aircraft, including 41 additional U.S. Navy aircraft announced this year to mitigate JSF delays.*

Active campaigns include Brazil and Denmark. A Middle Eastern customer&#8212;possibly Kuwait&#8212;has expressed interest. The Super Hornet is Boeing&#8217;s candidate for the next Japanese fighter order, competing with the Eurofighter Typhoon and JSF. The idea of another Super Hornet buy is being mooted in Australia, which could face a front-line fighter gap if the JSF slips further. Boeing says a number of JSF partners have asked for information on the Super Hornet.

Boeing&#8217;s strategy is not to initiate comparisons with JSF, although Boeing Military Aircraft President Chris Chadwick called Lockheed Martin on the mat in May for what he termed &#8220;fundamentally untrue&#8221; statements about the Super Hornet&#8217;s price. However, Boeing never talks about its product without pointing out that it offers &#8220;date and cost-certain&#8221; capabilities and that all Super Hornets and Growlers have been delivered on cost, and on or ahead of schedule. Recently, Chadwick suggested that the JSF &#8220;might become a niche fighter&#8221; on the international market because of its cost.

*More details have emerged about the &#8220;international roadmap&#8221; features that have been disclosed piece-by-piece over the past year. The most visible are the conformal fuel tanks (CFT) above the body and the low-radar-cross-section (RCS) centerline weapons pod. Those are to be wind tunnel-tested this year, with a decision on a flight-test program to follow.
*

*The CFTs carry 3,200 lb. of fuel.* Boeing says they have no net drag at cruising speed, because they reduce trim drag enough to offset their added frontal area. As a result, a configuration with CFTs and a centerline tank delivers as much range as a three-tank configuration today*. The weapon pod carries four AIM-120 missiles, a 2,000-lb. bomb or two 500-lb.-class weapons.*

Transonic acceleration and specific excess power, particularly when temperatures at altitude are high, were criticized on the Super Hornet when it entered service.* A roadmap option is an enhanced-performance engine (EPE) variant of the General Electric F414, offering up to a 20% thrust boost. That would take the EPE to 26,500 lb. of thrust, giving it the best thrust/weight ratio of any fighter engine&#8212;almost 11:1. It has a new core, based on demonstrations conducted with U.S. government funds in 2004 and 2006, and a redesigned fan and compressor. A third test engine was run in 2010.
*

*GE says that it has developed 17 new or derivative engines successfully from the same technology readiness level. Unfortunately, India did not accept that argument*.

Also on the roadmap menu is a spherical-coverage missile-approach warning system and an infrared search-and-track (IRST) system in a chin pod. Boeing and Lockheed Martin are working on a repackaged, updated version of the AAS-42 IRST (originally developed in the 1980s for the Grumman F-14D) for the Navy&#8217;s Hornet fleet, carried in a modified fuel tank. Boeing is open to other options for the international aircraft. (Japan, for instance, has its own domestic IRST technology on the F-15J Kai upgrade.)

Inside the cockpit, a new option is a big-screen display comprising an 11 X 19-in. panel, which could be flight-tested next year. Based on commercial technology, the panel is a hedge against obsolescence and a potential cost-saver as well as offering options for new display formats. A low-profile head-up display using digital LCD projection eliminates the big optical box that previously ruled out a panoramic display.

Boeing has been taking a working model of the big-screen cockpit to trade shows and bases worldwide, both to promote it and to get pilot reactions to conceptual display formats.

*Although Boeing is careful to keep the &#8220;international&#8221; label attached to the new options, they are all designed for retrofit to Block 2 aircraft, all but 24 of which belong to the U.S. Navy. And while the modified aircraft will not directly match the F-35C in signatures, it closes the gap in RCS and range (with the CFTs), is lighter and more powerful, and current estimates say it will be less expensive to buy and operate.
*

Hornet Buffs Up | AVIATION WEEK


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## SpArK

*Brazilian jet fighter deal more distant​*
BRASILIA, Brazil, July 12 (UPI) -- Rival defense manufacturers spent vast sums trying to secure it but a multibillion-dollar Brazilian contract for up to 100 fighter jets is unlikely to come up for government review until next year, with little indication of an early deal that suits priorities set by President Dilma Rousseff.

Each of the key manufacturers in the race -- Boeing Co., France's Dassault and Sweden's Saab -- has had its hopes raised in the last two years.

The lobbying for the contract has involved government and state leaders at the highest levels, with even the king of Sweden at one point was considered as an intermediary.

The deal for an initial 30 of the projected 100 jets for the Brazilian air force inventory is worth more than $4 billion but no confirmed figures have emerged from Brasilia.

Aside from the price and relative efficiency of the competing aircraft, at issue is Brazil's insistence on extensive transfer of technology as part of its overall strategy to start manufacturing a jet fighter of its own.

That's a tough call for the bidders, as none of them find the prospect of the customer turning into an arch competitor in a lucrative area of defense industry, believed to be worth hundreds of billions of dollars in future sales. Air forces worldwide are considering phasing out jet fighters bought from the 1950s onward.

Brazil has emerged as a major competitor for European and North American manufacturers of executive jets and smaller passenger aircraft, mainly the result of an extensive research and development program pursued without significant foreign help.

In 2009 France appeared to be the contender most likely to win the contract with Dassault's Rafale jet fighter, an aircraft mainly deployed in France but that prospect vanished when former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva handed over power to Rousseff this year.

U.S. President Barack Obama's visit in March raised hopes that Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet might emerge as the new favorite but Rousseff's administration cited budgetary constraints and issued the first of several postponements of a decision on the jet deal.

*Saab's modified and modernized Gripen NG -- for New Generation -- is a serious contender and uses the General Electric F414G engine, developed from the F/A-18E/F used on the Super Hornet's engine.*

*So far, the French have offered the most generous technology transfer terms, the Swedes appear constrained somewhat by borrowed components and also wary of giving away precious information they see vital to maintaining a foothold in a competitive jet fighter market.*

The Russians and the Chinese have been out of the race but industry analysts said that shouldn't be a cause for complacency of the competing defense industries of those two countries.

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim told reporters during a visit to France the government* won't review the jet fighter deal until next year.*

He cited the government's preoccupation with domestic concerns as the reason for the postponement.

However, he said,* "The principal necessity is technology transfer."*



Read more: Brazilian jet fighter deal more distant - UPI.com

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## Vibs

SpArK said:


> *Brazilian jet fighter deal more distant​*
> However, he said,* "The principal necessity is technology transfer."*


 
Guess that rules out Boeing..again!!


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## SpArK

Vibs said:


> Guess that rules out Boeing..again!!


 
Have a feeling they might choose Gripen or maybe Rafale , if they decrease the price.


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *IAF to brief Lockheed Martin
> ​*
> 
> *After receiving communication in this regard, the US had said it was "deeply disappointed" over the rejection and Boeing had also sought a debrief from the IAF.
> 
> The IAF had said it had tested the six participating aircraft extensively on 643 parameters and all of them were told about their performance in the field trials as the process moved forward.*
> 
> IAF to brief Lockheed Martin - Brahmand.com


 
We feel the disappointment here in PDF very much


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Typhoon to display agile multi-role capability at Royal International Air Tattoo 
​*
July 11, 2011 The Eurofighter Typhoon will be making* a rare demonstration of its unrivalied agility and engine power with a full weapon load air display at this years Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) from the 15th to 17th July at RAF Fairford.*

BAE Systems Chief Test Pilot for Combat Air, Mark Bowman, will fly a Warton based development aircraft (IPA 5) on *each day of the show and a full scale replica of the aircraft, including full weapon display, will be available for general public access. In addition, the RAF will have a Typhoon on display in the static aircraft park.*

*IPA 5 will fly in a swing-role configuration, including four Paveway II laser guided bombs, two 1000 ltr fuel tanks, four AMRAAMs (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles) and two ASRAAMs (Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles) and will highlight to the trade and public visitors that the Typhoon is agile regardless of weapon load, pulling up to an impressive 5.5g and in excess of 20 degrees angle of attack. *

Mark said: I am looking forward enormously to displaying at RIAT this year. The aim is simply to demonstrate the Typhoon's power, performance and presence in a truly representative combat load. Different than most other 'clean aircraft' displays, I hope the observer will get a real sense of why Typhoon is not only at the forefront of world combat aviation, but also acknowledge the role of European technology, engineering and ingenuity in producing this 'awesome' aircraft. 

Most air displays are achieved by reducing fuel and weapon loads, however with this display, IPA 5 demonstrates significant weapon carriage and manoeuvrability whilst still able to demonstrate carefree handling for the pilot. 

This will be the biggest ever Royal Tattoo for Typhoon and will highlight how Eurofighter Typhoon is the worlds most advanced, new generation multi-role combat jet. Eurofighter will also be sponsoring the crews enclosure at the show. 

defence.professionals | defpro.com


----------



## Vibs

SpArK said:


> *Eurofighter Typhoon to display agile multi-role capability at Royal International Air Tattoo
> ​*
> July 11, 2011 The Eurofighter Typhoon will be making* a rare demonstration of its unrivalied agility and engine power with a full weapon load air display at this years Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) from the 15th to 17th July at RAF Fairford.*
> 
> BAE Systems Chief Test Pilot for Combat Air, Mark Bowman, will fly a Warton based development aircraft (IPA 5) on *each day of the show and a full scale replica of the aircraft, including full weapon display, will be available for general public access. In addition, the RAF will have a Typhoon on display in the static aircraft park.*
> 
> *IPA 5 will fly in a swing-role configuration, including four Paveway II laser guided bombs, two 1000 ltr fuel tanks, four AMRAAMs (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles) and two ASRAAMs (Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles) and will highlight to the trade and public visitors that the Typhoon is agile regardless of weapon load, pulling up to an impressive 5.5g and in excess of 20 degrees angle of attack. *
> 
> Mark said: &#8220;I am looking forward enormously to displaying at RIAT this year. The aim is simply to demonstrate the Typhoon's power, performance and presence in a truly representative combat load. Different than most other 'clean aircraft' displays, I hope the observer will get a real sense of why Typhoon is not only at the forefront of world combat aviation, but also acknowledge the role of European technology, engineering and ingenuity in producing this 'awesome' aircraft&#8221;.
> 
> Most air displays are achieved by reducing fuel and weapon loads, however with this display, IPA 5 demonstrates significant weapon carriage and manoeuvrability whilst still able to demonstrate carefree handling for the pilot.
> 
> This will be the biggest ever Royal Tattoo for Typhoon and will highlight how Eurofighter Typhoon is the world&#8217;s most advanced, new generation multi-role combat jet. Eurofighter will also be sponsoring the crew&#8217;s enclosure at the show.
> 
> defence.professionals | defpro.com


 
Typhoon and Rafael have been making quite a few promotions. Including the live combat display over Libya. Wonder when Gripen will do the same? Does anyone have a functional Gripen Squadron yet?


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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Transformers

if eft goes multi role then i m with this??
btw,how much nukes it can carry?


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## IND151

^^ lol spark you are supporting euro fighter ?

on IDF you support rafale.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Although Boeing is careful to keep the international label attached to the new options, they are all designed for retrofit to Block 2 aircraft, all but 24 of which belong to the U.S. Navy. And while the modified aircraft will not directly match the F-35C in signatures, it closes the gap in RCS and range (with the CFTs), is lighter and more powerful, and current estimates say it will be less expensive to buy and operate.*



That doesn't make much sense to me, because the CFTs will replace only 2 x external fuel tanks, but the F18SH uses 3 for long range missions and by adding a normal centerline fuel tank, the RCS advantage is gone. That is even the biggest blinder imo, because it will have an advantage only at short to medium ranges with CAS loads (4 x 500lb LGBs), besides the fact that it still carries the SR missiles externally on the wingtips, which most of the reports keeps ignoring. Compared to the F35C, this F18SH upgrade is not even close, because the F35 carries all weapons and fuel internally + the stealth shapings, which give it a clear advantage in RCS, range, payload...
There is a reason why the USN will not funding these upgrades and simply waits if an export customer does it. Then they will add it as well, but no matter what, the F18SH will remain in secondary roles only.
Personally, I even think that the CFTs will mainly benefit the F18SH in these secondary roles, EW and tanker! The Growler for example can carry only 2 x external fuel tanks when it uses the 3 x jammers. So adding CFTs will dramatically increase it's range and endurance in the EW role, or could make free more hardpoints for HARM missiles (so far only 2 can be carried):







Similarly, the ammount of fuel it could carry in the tanker role, would be dramatically increased, which is important in areas where no bigger mid air refuelling tankers are available:


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## sancho

Vibs said:


> Guess that rules out Boeing..again!!


 
Not since Brazil has a new president, she is leaning towards the US and searches for better political relations to them, while the former president wanted Brazil to be more independent, that's why he prefered the French. A lot of the Brazilian airforce and industry would prefer the Gripen, because it is operationally more than enough for a country that not have real enemies at their borders and would offer more participation of their industry, since the Gripen is not fully developed yet.
And that all describes the chaos in that competition, because they have a lot of different opionions, many things are openly said by officials via the media and the requirements are changing again and again. When you compare the MMRCA with their competition, even with all our delays, IAF and A.K. Antony looks much more professional and we haven't that much PR and pressure from the privat defence industry. People should keep that in mind as well when asking about more privat sector involvement in Indian defence procurements!


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## kingdurgaking

Transformers said:


> if eft goes multi role then i m with this??
> btw,how much nukes it can carry?


 

never in your dreams dear... Germany, UK, Spain,italy, america, saudi, pakistan will oppose it


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## Transformers

kingdurgaking said:


> never in your dreams dear... Germany, UK, Spain,italy, america, saudi, pakistan will oppose it


 
for nukes???
y they will stop us??
any reason..


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## kingdurgaking

Transformers said:


> for nukes???
> y they will stop us??
> any reason..


 
Because they don't like it... Germany even stopped pistol to india


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## Transformers

kingdurgaking said:


> Because they don't like it... Germany even stopped pistol to india


 
your reason are hard to understand...they are selling planes which delivers destruction only..not flowers
if this is the case than y german chancellors projected EFT in india...

btw,my question is ..can eft carry nuke delivering missiles??if it is,then how many??


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## sancho

Vibs said:


> Typhoon and Rafael have been making quite a few promotions. Including the live combat display over Libya. Wonder when Gripen will do the same? Does anyone have a functional Gripen Squadron yet?


 
Gripen is deployed in Libya as well, but in air policing and reconnaissance roles. Here is a pic of the latest supplied Gripens and Saab 340 Erieye AWACS of the Thai air force:

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## kingdurgaking

Transformers said:


> your reason are hard to understand...they are selling planes which delivers destruction only..not flowers
> if this is the case than y german chancellors projected EFT in india...
> 
> btw,my question is ..can eft carry nuke delivering missiles??if it is,then how many??


 
who told you? it is for Defence... we can use it to shoot the intruders or do a kargil style war drop the bombs on our own land.. If you need to attack others.. Either Indian, Russian or France..

If you test nukes also those EFT will be grounded

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## sancho

Transformers said:


> your reason are hard to understand...they are selling planes which delivers destruction only..not flowers
> if this is the case than y german chancellors projected EFT in india...
> 
> btw,my question is ..can eft carry nuke delivering missiles??if it is,then how many??


 
Any fighter can carry a nuklear weapon if it's integrated, but that doesn't mean the manufacturer country, or company will allow it. Besides that, in such a role, each fighter will only carry a single weapon!

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## Transformers

kingdurgaking said:


> who told you? it is for Defence... we can use it to shoot the intruders or do a kargil style war drop the bombs on our own land.. If you need to attack others.. Either Indian, Russian or France..
> 
> If you test nukes also those EFT will be grounded


 
so does france allows us to do?
i heard that french rafale for indian nuclear command


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## kingdurgaking

Transformers said:


> so does france allows us to do?
> i heard that french rafale for indian nuclear command


 
France will allow... we had done it in Kargil and France was generous enough to ease it for money... The main reason for the such a high cost in Mirage MLU is because Nuclear command is with Mirages... thats why Thales are charging us more to either go for upgrade or buy Rafale for that


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## sancho

Transformers said:


> so does france allows us to do?
> i heard that french rafale for indian nuclear command


 
Lets say it is more likely, since they have a nuclear role for their fighters as well and have been generously looking away when we customised the Mirage 2000 with Israeli help, but I don't think they will sell us the ASMP - A nuclear missile, because of international laws, while they probably might sell ToT to develop such a missile. Several graphics of Nirbhay cruise missile looks very similar to ASMP - A and we defenitely got some ToT of an SSBN/SSN with the Scorpene sub deal.


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## kingdurgaking

^^^^ Best part of France always.. In addition to it Engine for LCH & Dhurv and Kaveri now


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## SpArK

*Compilation of Rafale launching weapons.

AASM, Exocet, Scalp EG, MICA, Paveway, AS-30L, Apache, ASMP-A*​


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## Vibs

sancho said:


> Any fighter can carry a nuklear weapon if it's integrated, but that doesn't mean the manufacturer country, or company will allow it. Besides that, in such a role, each fighter will only carry a single weapon!


 
Why all this talk about being able to carry a nuke? A nuclear warhead is nothing but another payload. If the fighter has specs to allow carrying payloads that can integrate nuclear warheads in them, they will be used to carry them.
No country will openly say it is using the planes to carry nuclear warheads.


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## MZUBAIR

If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.


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## Vibs

MZUBAIR said:


> If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
> Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.


 
India is already working with Israel and Russia on advanced radar systems,including Aesa. In the past, the French were ok with Israel upgrading the Mirages. No reason why they shouldn't in the future.


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## rockstarIN

^^Rafale has AESA now, they are gonna produce the same faster


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## IND151

rockstar said:


> ^^Rafale has AESA now, they are gonna produce the same faster


 
this is good news


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## sancho

Vibs said:


> Why all this talk about being able to carry a nuke? A nuclear warhead is nothing but another payload. If the fighter has specs to allow carrying payloads that can integrate nuclear warheads in them, they will be used to carry them.
> No country will openly say it is using the planes to carry nuclear warheads.


 
Basically the talk came up from this report:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089


As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well. 
AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.

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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
> Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.


 


> Saturday, August 14, 2010
> 
> *Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3*
> 
> *Thales is delivering the first batch of 4 production AESA RBE-2AA this month (2010/08) to Dassault*. Those new radar developped for the so called Rafale roadmap program will be fitted on the 60 rafale F3+ ordered for the french air force in december 2009. No retrofit to the 120 first rafale is planed so far...



Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3


If Rafale is selected, the first fighters with AESA could be delivered from 2013 onwards. If EF is selected, the first squadron delivered to India might be T3As with puls doppler radar, while T3Bs with AESA might be delivered from 2015/16 onwards.

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## Vibs

sancho said:


> Basically the talk came up from this report:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089
> 
> 
> As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
> But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
> Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well.
> AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.


 
Thanks for the clarification. But hasn't India traditionally always gone for 2 seater version of jets? I am sure even the EFT would have to modified for this requirement. 
Agree with your assesment of the Rafael.
BTW
Rafale supposedly carrying a nuclear ASMP-A


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## sancho

Vibs said:


> Thanks for the clarification. But hasn't India traditionally always gone for 2 seater version of jets? I am sure even the EFT would have to modified for this requirement.


 
No not necessarily. Only the MKI and in future the FGFA are fully in twin seat config, while LCA, Migs, and even Jags, or Mirages had twin seat versions mainly as trainers. MMRCA is expected in a similar 16 x single seat + 2 x twin seat mix in each squad, but the advantage of Rafale twin seaters for deep strike and the nuclear role with twin seaters is very obvious. If Rafale is selected, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some squads will end up with more twin seaters as well.


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## kingdurgaking

Nuclear Strike may be given into the hands of LCA-MK2 ... being Indian no one will object it... MK-2 will have huge useful payload and more internal fuel .. because it may outsmart Mirage...


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Nuclear Strike may be given into the hands of LCA-MK2 ... being Indian no one will object it... MK-2 will have huge useful payload and more internal fuel .. because it may outsmart Mirage...


 
It will take 9 years to complete the upgrade of Mirages. 

By the time we will be inducting MRCA. Hence the Mirage lines might get transfered for Nuke roles.


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## GORKHALI

*Testing the next-generation Super Hornet *

Nearly 11 years ago, I had the chance to fly a Boeing F/A-18F at NAS Lemoore, in California's central valley. During my familiarisation flight, I was able to sample first-hand the Super Hornet's capabilities.

To reduce risk and speed up delivery to the US Navy fleet, the initial (Block I) Super Hornet's avionics suite was the same as that of the then operational F/A-18C/D. The aircraft I flew had a Raytheon APG-73 radar and an inertial navigation system that could be augmented with a GPS receiver. Although not previewed on my flight, the Block I aircraft also had the capability to employ the joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS). At the time, I had not been long out of the cockpit of the Lockheed Martin F-16, and was generally impressed by the Super Hornet's capabilities. In particular, I found the radar's ground-mapping capability to be excellent.

Since then, Boeing has not stood still, and an upgraded Block II Super Hornet - incorporating numerous improvements to sensors, weapons systems and cockpit - was fielded in 2007. The new standard brought with it a state-of-the-art active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an advanced tactical forward-looking infrared (ATFLIR) pod and a network capability.





_Turn and burn (c)US-Navy 
© US Navy
The F/A-18E/F can employ weapons targeted by onboard sensors_

Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar significantly increased the Super Hornet's air-to-air as well as air-to-ground capabilities. The electro-optical ATFLIR offers high-resolution capability that can be "slaved" to the AESA radar and JHMCS. Net-centric operations capability was improved by adding a multi-functional information distribution system/Link 16 digital communication system.

Recently, at Boeing's facility in St Louis, Missouri, I was able to fly a fixed-base Block II Super Hornet simulator. The front cockpit was much as I remembered it from my flight. The aft cockpit, however, had a larger 8in x 10in (20cm x 25cm) multi-function display instead of the previous 6in x 6in one. Also, the missionised aft cockpit can now be operated independently of the front cockpit.

As with all current tactical aircraft, the Super Hornet has significant hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) capabilities. But what it lacked was 3D audio and voice command capability. The usefulness of voice commands may be debatable, but 3D audio can provide valuable spatial cues for threat reaction.

Although the Super Hornet is JHMCS capable, this was not used during my cockpit familiarisation flight. The JHMCS should be a great tactical asset, particularly during air combat manoeuvring. The accuracy of the off-boresight Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder infrared-guided missile is greatly enhanced by the ability to visually aim and shoot it at large off-axis angles.

My simulator sortie had air-to-air and air-to-ground elements, all flown near China Lake, just north of Edwards AFB. A final element involved three carrier landings at a notional ship off the coast of California.





Future Hornet - Boeing 
© Boeing
Further improvements to the General Electric F414 engines will enhance the performance

During the air-to-air engagements, it took me several minutes to get used to the Super Hornet's HOTAS controls. Cursor control in the F-16, for radar and other system slewing, is done with a thumb switch on the throttle. In the Super Hornet, it is done with the left middle finger, also on the throttle. Target designation can be done with a Z-axis/downward push on the slew button.

As a novice Super Hornet pilot, I found it difficult to keep the cursors over the target while designating it. I had the same problem when I flew a familiarisation flight in a Boeing F-15. I found using a separate button on the stick allowed me to designate targets without moving the cursors - an effective but much less elegant process than that employed by proficient F/A-18E/F pilots. Cueing symbols in the head-up display enabled me to visually acquire targeted aircraft rapidly, and the intuitive weapons symbology aided weapons employment.

Air-to-ground weapons delivery was practised from medium altitude. As with my actual flight in the Super Hornet, I found the Doppler beam sharpening mode of the radar built a very precise picture of the target environment. The APG-79's multi-tasking capabilities also allowed me to keep abreast of the air threats, while it drew a detailed picture of the China Lake airfield - our target area.

The Super Hornet is a formidable air-to-ground machine, with the ability to employ weapons targeted by onboard sensors (visual/radar/IR) as well as GPS- and laser-guided munitions. The two-seat Super Hornet with independent fore and aft cockpits should be a highly capable all-weather attack asset.

During the tactical portion of my simulator sortie, I felt at home in the Super Hornet's cockpit. Individual systems, the AESA radar in particular, are state of the art.

My overall feel for the pilot/vehicle interface, while it is effective and combat proven, was that it lags newer aircraft. Tactical information, for the most part, is presented on separate displays, forcing the pilot to do much of the fusion. This federated arrangement is no different from what I experienced when I flew a Block 60 F-16 simulator at Lockheed's Fort Worth facility in Texas in 2000. In 2007, I was able to fly a full-motion simulator for the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The F-35's helmet-mounted display and large forward panel-mounted 19.6in x 8in display offered a wonderful palette to display truly fused tactical information.






_Cockpit with AESA radar- In the cockpit, individual systems, such as the AESA radar in particular, are state of the art_

Engine and aircraft system information - readily available and automatically presented when needed - does not clutter the cockpit. The F-35's level of integration and sensor fusion was a generation ahead of what I experienced in the Block II Super Hornet and Block 60 F-16 simulator sessions.

But further slips to the F-35's initial operational capability date are a distinct possibility, while the Super Hornet is available now. Also, Boeing is hard at work developing cost-effective improvements and upgrades to the type.

Proposed improvements to the aircraft's General Electric F414 turbofan engines will enhance the Super Hornet's performance, and conformal fuel tanks will enable tactical operations at greater ranges.

A next-generation cockpit is also under development and has a very large 19in x 11in touch-sensitive display. I was able to fly a cockpit built around this display and can confirm that it provides an ideal palette to display fused tactical information.

The Super Hornet may have started life as a fourth-generation fighter, but Boeing's efforts should keep the type tactically relevant for years to come.

Testing the next-generation Super Hornet

*MMMMMMMmmmmmmm....Still tempting ,isn't folks???*

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## GORKHALI

India's Mirage upgrade: a prelude to a Rafale MMRCA win?





It looks as if India is serious about upgrading its Dassault Mirage 2000Hs to Mirage 2000-9 standard. This is a major upgrade that will affect most systems in the aircraft. The bill, estimated at $2.2 billion, is staggering, working out to about $43 million an aircraft. One wonders if India would be better off buying new aircraft. In his MMRCA report earlier this year Ashley Tellis pegged the flyaway cost of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (with APG-79 AESA radar) at $60 million.

Anyway, the timing of the upgrade (first mooted in 2004) is interesting, as it coincides nicely with the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) shortlist that came out in April. This saw the Super Hornet, F-16IN Super Viper, Saab Gripen, and MiG-35 eliminated, creating a shortlist of the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

For some time I have suspected a linkage between the MMRCA deal and the eternally delayed Mirage upgrade. By linking the two separate purchases, India would be able to negotiate a better price for both. France, for its part, could offer a cut rate for the Mirage upgrade provided India guaranteed a decision favoring the Rafale, securing the first overseas victory for the type.

Remember, MMRCA could well go beyond the initial 126 aircraft, with the IAF buying up to 200. Later this decade India will also need a fighter for its new aircraft carriers - and the Rafale has proved itself with the French air force and navy. An MMRCA win would represent serious jobs and prestige for France, making a major price cut for the Mirage upgrade an attractive proposition. The upgrade's cost could end up being far below that staggering $2.2 billion figure.

Indian officials have reportedly set a timeline to select the MMRCA winner in September, with the extended bids from Dassault and Eurofighter to expire at the end of this year. Soon we'll know.

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## rockstarIN

So, 2.4 million Mirage upgrade contract to France is a good or bad sign for MMRCA - RAFALE?


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Basically the talk came up from this report:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089
> 
> 
> As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
> But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
> Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well.
> AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.


 
hai sancho,
can you tell me how many TR module RBE-2AA AESA Radar have. I read in forum that it is around 800-900. Which is very low against ET AESA which is around 1300-1350.


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## SpArK

demitry said:


> india can still consider MIG-35


 
That deal will be seperate if needed and depends upon the proceedings of Mig-29 upgrade.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> hai sancho,
> can you tell me how many TR module RBE-2AA AESA Radar have. I read in forum that it is around 800-900. Which is very low against ET AESA which is around 1300-1350.


 
Hi, can't give you a real figure because it is still classified and Thales only states "compromising 1000 T/R modules", which could be more, or even less. The speculated numbers are based on PS pics, or the radar on display at some air shows, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number is only around 850 to 950 and I explained the reasons of the difference in an earlier post (#1824):

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-122.html#post1909648


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## GORKHALI

Rafale's Multirole Capability

French air force and navy Rafale F3 combat aircraft are touted as true &#8220;omnirole fighters.&#8221; Military officials say there are multirole fighters that conduct reconnaissance, air-to-air combat, air-to-surface attack or deterrence, but only one at a time. The F3 can perform all in a single mission, they maintain.

Stephane Reb, Rafale program manager at French procurement agency DGA, explains: &#8220;The intention from the outset [with the F3] was to have a joint and omnirole fighter to replace all other aircraft in the air force.&#8221;

*Indeed, when it comes to air-to-air combat, he says the F3 takes the place of the Mirage 2000 RDI and Mirage 2000-5. For deterrence it replaces the Mirage 2000N. In air-to-ground attack it replaces the SEM, Mirage 2000D and Mirage F1 CT, and for reconnaissance the Mirage F1 CR. &#8220;By 2015 we will have only the Rafale and Mirage 2000D in our fleet, and by 2030 only the Rafale,&#8221; Reb says.*

Dassault Aviation was from the outset tasked with designing one plane that could fulfill all of these roles and remain in service for 40-50 years. The F1 version, delivered to the Aeronavale in 2004, only had air-to-air combat capability. The F2, delivered to the air force at St. Dizier in 2006, introduced the Scalp cruise missile, AASM air-to-surface missile, IR MICA infrared air-to-air missile, NATO L16 data link and front-sensor optronics.

The F3, first delivered in July 2008, is the F2 plus the ASMP-A advanced air-to-surface medium-range nuclear missile, Exocet AM39 antiship missile and RECO-NG (Areos) reconnaissance pod. &#8220;Two Rafales are equivalent to two Mirage 2000-5 fighters and four Mirage 2000D aircraft with respect to payload,&#8221; says a senior Rafale pilot identified for security reasons as Junior. In operations over Libya, using fewer aircraft reduces the complexity of the raids and the refuelling plan. (For a story on AWACS air operations over Libya, see p. 21.)

*The F3-04T version currently under development is the F3 plus active, electronically scanned array radar (with capabilities that include detection of low-signature targets), a new-generation missile-warning system and front-sensor optronics with improved technology.*

The 10 F1 versions already delivered will be upgraded to F3, Reb says. The F2s have already been upgraded.

France&#8217;s strategy is to stretch out Rafale production, at the record slow rate of one aircraft per month, while fully funding upgrades and seeking export contracts. Production is secured until 2019. The 100th aircraft is due for delivery in September. Ultimately, the air force will have 228 Rafale B (twin-seat) and C (single-seat) aircraft, while the navy will have 58 single-seat aircraft.

The DGA says that production of the aircraft will continue to 2025, when the mid-life upgrade begins. Until then, Reb says the aircraft&#8217;s architecture will allow it to remain at a &#8220;top level of performance and interoperability&#8221; without major hardware changes.

*Even improvements to the M88 engine to turn it into the M88&#8209;4E&#8212;with lower maintenance of key parts and a 30% increase in the life of the high-pressure turbine&#8212;can be introduced piece-by-piece. The first M88-4E will be delivered in November and be the base configuration of the Rafale engine.*

Pilots flying the Rafale over Libya and Afghanistan are pleased with its performance. Junior says the Rafale &#8220;allows the observation, orientation, decision and action loop to be drastically reduced because we can act in the cockpit.&#8221; He notes that &#8220;over Libya we&#8217;re omnirole: While your recce is working by itself, you&#8217;re scanning the skies and sending pictures to other aircraft. With one trigger pull of the AASM you can hit six targets simultaneously, in all weather and day or night.&#8221;

Junior says the cockpit displays are intuitive. &#8220;It takes a Mirage pilot just 30 minutes to understand them the first time,&#8221; he remarks, adding that &#8220;you can select what information you receive. I like a relatively silent cockpit, which I can have and yet be fully part of the network-centric warfare.&#8221; 

Rafale's Multirole Capability | AVIATION WEEK


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## RPK

*The Hindu : News / National : Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium*








It has superior turnaround time, bombing capabilities'

With just a fortnight left for the opening of commercial bids for the Indian military's biggest tender, four European nations  the U.K., Germany, Spain and Italy  bidding jointly for 126 fighter planes promised an open door technology transfer and emphasised the superiority of their Eurofighter Typhoon over its sole competitor, the French Rafale, during ongoing operations in Libya.

The technology transfer is very attractive, said senior officers of the four-nation consortium, while senior Royal Air Force officers, sidestepping the morality issue of bombing a sovereign country, claimed that the Typhoon had outperformed the Rafale in Libya.

Asked whether the source code  a bone of contention with the Americans who were knocked out of the competition earlier this year along with the Russians and the Swedish  would also be transferred, they said: Everything is on the table.''

India needs these planes to shore up its falling squadron levels brought about by the retirement of the MiG series but has displayed little desperation, preferring to evaluate both bids on merit. The commercial bids open on August 1 and available information indicates that the French bid is likely to beat the four-country offer on price. It can restore this imbalance by lower life cycle maintenance costs and higher operational availability.

There is very strong will to transfer all possible technology, said senior officials, while detailing the technologies that would accrue to the Indian Air Force if New Delhi opted for the Eurofighter's Typhoon. These include Carbon airframe, mission system capabilities and advanced avionics, though the kind of radar sought by the IAF is still undergoing development.

British pilots and their commanding officers conducting operations over Libya against the regime of President Muammar Qadhafi displayed statistics to prove that out of the 1,000-plus sorties flown by Rafale, Typhoon and Tornado, it was the offering by their home country to India that was superior in terms of turnaround time and bombing capabilities.

While Saturday's air display at the international air show in this decidedly British rural setting was washed out by the unpredictable weather, there was no let-up in the attempts to hard sell their fighter. All the familiar arguments about precision strike capabilities being trotted out by the American-West European combine since Gulf War-I were also laid out  we are denying ground to Qadhafi's forces; people are being protected and there are few civilian casualties.

The approximately $11-billion tender would be a make-or-break affair for both the French and the four European nation team-up. So far 280 Typhoons have been delivered to six countries, said officials trying to make the point that the French Rafale has had no international customers. Though the number of countries opting for the fighter appears impressive, the fact is four of the customers are the ones who are co-producing the planes. That leaves the other two  tiny Austria which does not want some of the features  and the cash rich Saudi Arabia, a perennial customer for Western offerings.

Our strategic vision is to work in partnership with the Indian industry, to develop and manufacture in India, to meet the requirements of the Indian security forces. This is directly in line with the Indian government's policy to increase self-sufficiency in the defence and security technology/industry, maintained officials aligned with the companies that have joined hands to produce the Eurofighter Typhoon.

They also sought to underline the previous relationships with India stretching back to the early days of the Indian Air Force  Spitfires, Hawker Hunters, Jaguars, Canberras, Gnats, Sea Harriers (Navy) and Hawk advanced jet trainers. The French have their compelling arguments to offer since they too have been intimately connected with the Indian military.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony has repeatedly said the merits of the plane rather than geo-political considerations will be the prime consideration. The coming days will see India being tested as the two sides step up pressure for what is said to be the mother of all defence deals as far as India is concerned.


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## notorious_eagle

MZUBAIR said:


> If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
> Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.


 
I think by the time the order is operationalized, Rafale will have an active AESA Radar. There is also always the option of upgrading it later as the technology matures, nothing wrong with that if the French can convince the Indians that their AESA will be capable. Its quite obvious now that the IAF will go with the Rafale due to its superior Multi Role Capabilities, EF is more geared towards Air Superiority which the IAF does not need because they have assigned SU30MKI and MIG29 to perform that role. 

They need a ground pounder that can carry a massive payload, drop it with precision on its assigned target and fight its way out if it has to. Rafale clearly is the better choice when it come to carrying out A2G roles. Also my belief is strengthened as the IAF has signed the deal to upgrade the M2K's, commonality of logistics will result in reduced costs. Thus, i belief the Rafale will win the competition. I feel bad for the EF project, a great fighter but too expensive, without Indian funding i dont believe the project will go any forward as none of the partner countries are willing to provide additional funding.

@Sancho. You have done a great job on this thread bud, i believe Dassault should hire you as their lead PR Manager


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## angeldemon_007

> I think by the time the order is operationalized, Rafale will have an active AESA Radar.


Thales already delivered first aesa


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## sathya

*Eurofighter very touchy after Rafale team claims superiority*

It seems that the trench war has begun between the Eurofigter and Rafale teams. The Eurofighter web site is trying to discard the Dassault and Thales claims stating that the European consortium was a "cooperation of incompetencies" and that the Selex AESA radar was 5 years behind the RBE-2 AESA :

"With Thales claiming to be five years more advanced in AESA radar technology than its competitors with its future Rafale radar and with Dassault claiming that the Eurofighter programme is an example of incompetencies, the French look to be on the defensive."

Well, reading this I would rather say that the Rafale team is on the offensive. Anyway, if it is true that Dassault's claim is rather crual, there is nevertheless some truth in it. Indeed, it is a known fact that the Eurofighter project has been delayed by serious technical issues due to the fact that each company involved wanted workshare on technologies they did not master. As a result, the program is very late and more expensive than the Rafale despite a much larger development team and a higher production rate.

As for the Thales statement, The first RBE-2 production radar has been delivered in 2010 and the first production Captor-E is now expected in 2014 if there is no delay. So that's, at minimum, a 4 years gap (may be not technology wise but at least in term of availability for the export market). Ok, that's not 5 years, but not far from it nevertheless. In fact the Eurofighter team is now in a hurry to field this new radar in order to keep the gap with the RBE-2 as small as possible because any delay will be seen a major setback by export customers. 

The next paragraph is an attempt to boast about the Eurofighter ecomical achievement while in fact the figures tell more about how slow and inefficient the program has been compared to the Rafale :

"For a programme like Eurofighter which has a huge economic impact in the four partner nations with 100,000 long-term jobs secured, 400 large, medium and small companies participating in the programme, 280 aircraft delivered (just six less than the total number of Rafale planned - but not ordered yet  and to be produced in total!) from a planned 707, six air force customers included two export nations, in-service in 16 units across Europe, Asia and South America, 120,000 flying hours flown, and total operational and combat proven as multi-role platform, these claims by the French look to be more a sign of weakness than of strength"
The "280 aircrafts delivered" statement is interesting because that's in fact a weakness when you consider that there are 4 assembly lines. So, that's an average of 70 planes per assembly line which is 30% less than the Rafale assembly line that has produced more than 100 aircrafts.
Then there is the wild assumption that 707 eurofighters will be ordered and produced. The reality is less shinny when all the partners nations are reducing their orders or using some of their batch as a reserve for export customers.
I will not come back on the boasting about the Eurofighter chassing sea gulls in the Falklands (South america units), nor will I smile to the "combat proven and total operational multirole platform" claim which seems a bit exaggerated for a plane that has merely demonstrated timid LGB strike capabilities. So much Eurofigters (remember, 280) in service but so few actual operational usefulness (what about stand off strike, Sead and recce capabilities ?) ... 
Eventually, such a limited achievement can only be considered as a disappointment for a workforce that large (remember, 100,000 jobs, 400 companies).

The last sentence is precious :
"So, no JSF for India, no marketing leading radar for Thales and no satisfaction for a programme like the Rafale that should concentrate on delivering a better return to the French taxpayer than on attacking its competitors."

Right, no JSF for India, but JSF for UK and Italy to fill the eurofighter capability gaps. 
The French taxpayer is most probably very pleased with an aircraft that can conduct all missions, today, even from an aircraft carrier and during the first day of a conflict.


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## sancho

RPK said:


> It has superior turnaround time, bombing capabilities


 
 That's actually hilarious, when we keep in mind tha the EF was rushed into the Libyan strike role only for PR reasons and even RAF pilots confirmed that it needs support from the older Tornados for laser guidance, or that they are more useful in strikes than the EF, because of more variety of weapons. 
Not to forget that the EFs carrying only a single BVR missile, if at all, which means they need dedicated escorts, while Rafale is flying without escorts, or any other support since day 1!




notorious_eagle said:


> @Sancho. You have done a great job on this thread bud, i believe Dassault should hire you as their lead PR Manager



Thanks, but I just want the best fighter for our forces, if the EF would be more capable and worth the high costs, I would probably support it and as I often stated, if they had offered us the same partnership deal 10 years ago, I would have prefered EF over Rafale and even MKI!
However, that was then, this is now and from our requirements today, Rafale is the best choice!


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## Storm Force

Notorius is right RAFALE will win the MMRCA 

The indians orginally wanted 126 mirage2000 anyway back in 2002 WHEN france withdraw future production of mirage2000 in favour of the new soon to arrive rafale.

Also i believe the french are helping with the KAVERI engine project even more future commonality.

OVER ALL 126 RAFAELS will be over $4 billion cheaper in total cost too.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Not to forget that the EFs carrying only a single BVR missile, if at all, which means they need dedicated escorts.
> 
> Thanks, but I just want the best fighter for our forces, if the EF would be more capable and worth the high costs, I would probably support it and as I often stated, if they had offered us the same partnership deal 10 years ago, I would have prefered EF over Rafale and even MKI!
> However, that was then, this is now and from our requirements today, Rafale is the best choice!


 
Sancho i'm not convinced about EFT requiring a dedicated escort for strike roles. we must remember that these loadouts are choice of the user air force and modifiable according to need by alternating the subsequent no. of weapons carried as they feel is demand of the situation also EFT and Rafael might as well have flown without any BVR missiles in Libya would have hardly made a difference the defense of our country is much more complicated as we are outnumbered heavily if faced by a two front war from both east and west although the north will have to be our most heavily garissoned position. In such condition we will require custom loadouts with weapons of different origins in order to maintain unpredictability. Even previously our air force had cleared some Russian missile to be fired from some western jet something we must have managed ourselves specially cause Russia wont wanna give west a look at it's missile and west wouldn't want Russia to have a look at it's jet and as our indigenous weapons develop they will be integrated into our whole fleet I hope u see what i mean.

We all want best fighter for our forces however our requirements today are getting far more diverse than they were ever before there are things you and I can't even comprehend that are playing a part in the picture specially when such huge global powers, World's largest armed forces, world's major technological giants, leading defense pioneers and huge pile of cash are concerned not to mention careers of 10s of thousands of workers over a period of more than 2 decades it's only obvious what we know is only the trailer not the whole movie and there's nothing we can do to choose except hope that our defense forces/analysts/strategists/big-shots and god knows what not manage to choose what is best for us. It should be remembered that no matter how capable unless these planes are forming the integral parts of our defense system they are useless.

for USAF A2G is the primary requirement mainly because it doesn't have any significant chances of aerial intrusion into it's sovereign boundaries due lack of major adversary while for the Europeans A2G remains secondary as they want these to be in air-superiority roles cause they getting F-35 which is 70% A2G 30% A2A and to defend against Russian intrusion where they are outnumbered so depending on our doctrine we may need primary A2A capabilities depending on us being outnumbered or complete multirole capabilities cause we got a huge Infantry to support as well but definitely not A2G capabilities (as can be seen in Chinese aircraft procurement) so it's actually depending on our armed forces which is more suitable to them.

Also this is India we're talking about brother so I wouldn't be surprised if EFT wins the contract but before any deliveries are made finance ministry cancels the deal and buys MiG-35s stating cost factors and increased no. of required jets by IAF due to long delay in the procurement sice last the no. of required aircraft was estimated.


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## GORKHALI

*Even Eurofighter Got Airbrakes ,similar to SU 30mki*


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho i'm not convinced about EFT requiring a dedicated escort for strike roles. we must remember that these loadouts are choice of the user air force and modifiable according to need by alternating the subsequent no...



Normally it shouldn't, but the fact is, in the strikes in Libya EFs always carried only 2 x WVR missiles and none, or just a single BVR missile! In Air superiority roles instead, they carrierd 4 x WVR and 4 x BVR missiles, which was the highest missile load of all allied fighters. So if they don't think there is a thread, why did they used that much missiles in the one role, while very limited only in the other?
Also all other allied multi role fighters like F16s, F18, Mirage 2000-9, Gripen and of course Rafale are still flying with normal AAM load (at least 2 + 2 AAMs) in strike, or recon roles. 




DacterSaab said:


> We all want best fighter for our forces however our requirements today are getting far more diverse than they were ever before there are things...



Not for the airforce! Their requirements are still the same, the only point that changed from MRCA compoetition to M-MRCA competition is the weight class, all other requirements that are important now are from MoD/GoI. IAF would have been more than happy with Mirage 2000-5s, but MoD/GoI aimed higher and saw that this is a chance to get more out of the deal, however we know quiet well what IAF wants:

*Ex Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major:*



> In a generic sense, *we want a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease.*
> 
> We want the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements. Extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired. Ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria




*Air Chief Naik on the roles of MMRCAs in the IAF fleet:*



> The larger aircraft, i.e. FGFA and SU 30 would focus on Air Dominance and specialise in similar roles in long ranges over land and sea, *while the MRCAs would do a variety of medium-range and tactical roles. These assets would be capable of all weather, day and night attack with adequate self-protection capabilitythese assets would be immensely capable and are not going to be confined to the strictly stereotyped roles. They would carry out a number of roles in the same mission.*




*Even A.J. Tellis analysed the IAF requirments like this:*



> *The operational context in Southern Asia elaborated above suggests that the MMRCA candidate selected by the IAF will have to be an utterly versatile platform that earns the title of multi-role precisely because that attribute will be at a premium in future subcontinental conflicts*. It must be able to flexibly shift from air combat to ground attack operations during the day, night, or adverse weather because such dexterity will be essential for success in the counterair mission alone. In this context, the ideal aircraft would be one that possesses a low radar cross-section, deploys advanced sensors and self-protection suites, carries a heavy weapons load consisting of both long-range AAMs and diverse precision anti-surface weaponry, and possesses superior agility, endurance, and combat effectiveness. Since the air-to-ground role thus becomes virtually conjoint with the air-to-air requirement where the MMRCA is concerned, the six contenders should be evaluated according to their effectiveness in both missions...




IAF does not need just another A2A fighter, because that's what MKI (with upgrades) and FGFA are meant for and where they will be even superior to both MMRCA finalists. The MMRCA is meant to fit into the IAF fleet and complementing the existing and coming fighters *in all roles*, be it A2A next to MKI/FGFA on the upper end, or LCA, Mig 21 Bisons, Mirage 2000, or Mig 29 on the mid and lower end. Just like it should complement the IAF strike capability, be it with MKI on the heavy side, or Mig 29SMT, Mirage 2000-5, upgraded Jags and Tejas on the mid and lower side (will make a post on that later too).

The fact is, at the current stage and with the funded and cleared upgrades for both fighters, the Rafale is the only one that fulfils these requirements, because was meant from the start to be that versatile and capable in all roles. EF has the potential to do the same, but only with more time and especially money invested in further upgrades, while it's advanatges are mainly in fields that are already covered by MKI and FGFA in future.


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## Jon Snow

@ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?


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## sancho

PANDORA said:


> *Even Eurofighter Got Airbrakes ,similar to SU 30mki*



To take away the question why Rafale don't has air brakes: 



> *1- An affordable high-tech fighter*
> 
> A reliable and easily maintainable fighter invariably translates into considerably lower maintenance costs, such as for the RAFALE...
> 
> *The decision to eliminate the complex systems from the early design phase* (*no airbrake*, fixed air intakes, electrical generation using a variable frequency totally free of the fragile parts of alternators currently fitted on other aircraft, a fixed refuelling probe avoiding retraction problems, etc) *ensures maintenance needs reduction, in terms of spares, maintenance man hours and support equipment.*



Low operating costs

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## SpArK

Jon Snow said:


> @ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?


 
The winner will be of the lowest price or L1 as said in the rule . If Rafale's overall price is high EFT will win. Its as simple as that.

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> To take away the question why Rafale don't has air brakes:
> 
> 
> 
> Low operating costs


 
Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...


 
I dont think its not a big issue. If requested it can be done.


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> @ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?


 
Hi, wanted to reply to you before on that, but was pretty busy this week and didn't found the thread anymore. If you want to compare costs of each fighter, you have to take the flyaway cost, because that includes only the cost for the base fighter, engines, radar and avionics, which should be mainly the same be it for the F3+ that France ordered, or the F3+ that is on offer in India, Brazil, or Swiss.
The cost you are refering to, are the system costs for the UAE version, which includes training, spares... for a specific lifecycle and any customer calculates that differently. Also we know that the UAE wants several changes on their version, which makes the fighter more costly as well, but the most important point is, you calculated the unit cost for Rafale from the total cost of their procurement (60 fighters, the Mirage are 62), which is not correct, because the total cost is always dependent on the number of fighters a country procures!
For example the Australian air force procured 24 x Super Hornets for a total cost of $6 billion australian dollars, by that time around $4.6 million US dollars. That means that each fighter costs around $191 US dollars totally, but the flyway price of the base F18SH is only between $55 and 70 million each.
Similarly, 85 Gripen NG was offered to the Netherlands for a total cost of around $7.6 billions in 2008, which makes around $89 millions per unit, but the flyaway cost is between $45 and 50 millions only. 

For India with an order of at least 126 fighters, the flyway costs will be mainly the same, but the system cost will be decided by the number we order and the additional costs we add for training, spares...and of course the licence production that will make it more costly as well. The fact that we shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters, but also those that offers the most ToT and industrial benefits, tells us that we are fine with paying more per unit, if we get much benefits for our industry in return as well. But the cost, ToT and offset negotiations won't be that easy!

When you compare just the reported flyaway costs, it should be like this:

Gripen NG (E/F) - $45 to 50 millions
F18SH for USN - $55 to 70 millions
Rafale for French forces - $90 millions for the air force version
EF T3A for EF partners - $118 millions 

The costs for Rafale and EF includes European taxes that should not be added at our costs and are calculated at todays exchange rates, but the EF on offer for us is the T3B, which should be even costlier.

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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> I dont think its not a big issue. If requested it can be done.


 
Yea!!Sparky there are some more in my list..
1>Powerful engine M88-4 eco core and replacement by Kaveri in near future option.
2>Full TOT with permanent licence to produce and upgrade just like Jaguar .
3>As i mentioned in above post..


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## Ajaxpaul




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## sancho

PANDORA said:


> Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...


 
No, the MK1 gets a fixed refuelling probe and the question is, how much advantage it brings in terms of RCS, when you carry way bigger fuel tanks, or weapons externally anyway. For stealth fighters, or fighters with internal weapon bays it is a must have for sure, but for anything else?


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## SpArK

PANDORA said:


> Yea!!Sparky there are some more in my list..
> 1>Powerful engine M88-4 eco core and replacement by Kaveri in near future option.
> 2>Full TOT with permanent licence to produce and upgrade just like Jaguar .
> 3>As i mentioned in above post..


 
*I even want external weapons pod like the F-18 road map .. *


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## Ajaxpaul




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## Ajaxpaul




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## Ajaxpaul




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## Ajaxpaul

This is inside Charle-de-gaulle


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *I even want external weapons pod like the F-18 road map .. *


 
Under development afaik, but will need time for sure. My wishlist if we select Rafale would be:

- 90 to 100 kN Kaveri - Snecma engine for licence produced Rafales and further LCA MK2s. With full ToT, IP rights and the freedom to upgrade them alone to our needs without French approval (btw, if there is already a JV for TVC with them for LCA and Kaveri engine, we could add it later for Rafale too)

- CFTs, for more range in strike roles, but mainly for lower RCS, more endurance in A2A roles, while the reduced drag should increase the (SC) speed as well

- Topsight, or Sagem Gerfaut HMS

- integration of Damocles XF into the lower side of the nose (instead of the FSO-TV Channel), for A2A/A2G visual identification and A2G weapon guidance, similar to EOTS in F35, while the FSO IRST channel should remain on the upper side.

That's it for the short term, long term coops, could include integration of Indian weapons, co-developments on specialised SEAD, or extended range versions of AASM, GaN AESA radar with side arrays, possibly a common new IR missile, together with the UK (could be combined with the Maitri SAM co-development)


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## Ajaxpaul

Rafale C






snecma M88-2 engine.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> Hi, wanted to reply to you before on that, but was pretty busy this week and didn't found the thread anymore. If you want to compare costs of each fighter, you have to take the flyaway cost, because that includes only the cost for the base fighter, engines, radar and avionics, which should be mainly the same be it for the F3+ that France ordered, or the F3+ that is on offer in India, Brazil, or Swiss.
> The cost you are refering to, are the system costs for the UAE version, which includes training, spares... for a specific lifecycle and any customer calculates that differently. Also we know that the UAE wants several changes on their version, which makes the fighter more costly as well, but the most important point is, you calculated the unit cost for Rafale from the total cost of their procurement (60 fighters, the Mirage are 62), which is not correct, because the total cost is always dependent on the number of fighters a country procures!
> For example the Australian air force procured 24 x Super Hornets for a total cost of $6 billion australian dollars, by that time around $4.6 million US dollars. That means that each fighter costs around $191 US dollars totally, but the flyway price of the base F18SH is only between $55 and 70 million each.
> Similarly, 85 Gripen NG was offered to the Netherlands for a total cost of around $7.6 billions in 2008, which makes around $89 millions per unit, but the flyaway cost is between $45 and 50 millions only.
> 
> For India with an order of at least 126 fighters, the flyway costs will be mainly the same, but the system cost will be decided by the number we order and the additional costs we add for training, spares...and of course the licence production that will make it more costly as well. The fact that we shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters, but also those that offers the most ToT and industrial benefits, tells us that we are fine with paying more per unit, if we get much benefits for our industry in return as well. But the cost, ToT and offset negotiations won't be that easy!
> 
> When you compare just the reported flyaway costs, it should be like this:
> 
> Gripen NG (E/F) - $45 to 50 millions
> F18SH for USN - $55 to 70 millions
> Rafale for French forces - $90 millions for the air force version
> EF T3A for EF partners - $118 millions
> 
> The costs for Rafale and EF includes European taxes that should not be added at our costs and are calculated at todays exchange rates, but the EF on offer for us is the T3B, which should be even costlier.


 
thanks - been wanting to clear that up for quite some time now


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know if selected will either plane come with a HMDS as STANDARD, right from day one in IAF service? As I don't know if it was part ofmthe initial RFI critera or a later contractual obligation. Also as far as I know the EFT has offered this to IAF:
Eurofighter offers 'Star Wars' helmet to IAF | StratPost

When would this be selected? After delivery to IAF or after being selected by IAF (September hopefully). And AKAIK the Rafele doesn't have a HMDS so are there plans by Dassult for one in the future? Or could other ones like TOPSIGHT-I be integrated onto it like upgraded IAF MIRAGES will have (also Dassualt). 

And any ideas when the full list of offering for each plane (Radars, weapons, avionics etc) will be released to see what exactly IAF will be receiving?


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Under development afaik, but will need time for sure. My wishlist if we select Rafale would be:
> 
> - 90 to 100 kN Kaveri - Snecma engine for licence produced Rafales and further LCA MK2s. With full ToT, IP rights and the freedom to upgrade them alone to our needs without French approval (btw, if there is already a JV for TVC with them for LCA and Kaveri engine, we could add it later for Rafale too)
> 
> - CFTs, for more range in strike roles, but mainly for lower RCS, more endurance in A2A roles, while the reduced drag should increase the (SC) speed as well
> 
> - Topsight, or Sagem Gerfaut HMS
> 
> - integration of Damocles XF into the lower side of the nose (instead of the FSO-TV Channel), for A2A/A2G visual identification and A2G weapon guidance, similar to EOTS in F35, while the FSO IRST channel should remain on the upper side.
> 
> That's it for the short term, long term coops, could include integration of Indian weapons, co-developments on specialised SEAD, or extended range versions of AASM, GaN AESA radar with side arrays, possibly a common new IR missile, together with the UK (could be combined with the Maitri SAM co-development)


 
Sancho,

Its really surprising...French never integrated HMS for Rafale...wonder why that is ....is it because Spectra helps in cueing the missiles to their target...significantly reducing need for an HMS ?


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## anathema

ajaxpaul said:


>


 
How do they take this damn shots....  ...i hardly doubt if they will be pointing camera at their own face and say cheese...


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## Ajaxpaul



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## Ajaxpaul



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## Silent egale

Sancho, You rocks

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## SpArK




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## Silent egale

Ajaxpaul you also doing nice work by posting nice photograph

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone know if selected will either plane come with a HMDS as STANDARD, right from day one in IAF service?...






anathema said:


> Sancho,
> 
> Its really surprising...French never integrated HMS for Rafale...wonder why that is ....is it because Spectra helps in cueing the missiles to their target...significantly reducing need for an HMS ?


 
HMS is a must have for IAF, all upgraded and new fighters will have it, but when all features of the winning fighter will be released is hard to tell, several things might remain to be classified.
Regarding Rafale and HMS, check this please:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-109.html#post1793194


Also at the Paris air show we saw these pics:








> Thales stand. note the Topsight helmet










So Topsight is a possibility for Rafale, which would even increase the commonality to upgraded Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29K, possibly Mig 29SMT and LCA as well (both not clear so far). Moreover, since we already have a JV with Thales and Samtel for it, with the new name, *Divy Drishti:*







And did you noticed the fighter at the flatscreen in the background? Seems that I had the right feeling about the new Thales - Samtel JV, which not only include HMS for fighter and helicopter, but also an IRST and the following pics confirms, that the JV is about Rafales Front Sector Optronics: 






https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011#5574602953616028946

https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011#5574600418386606114


Here is the full gallery with a lot of interesting pics from the Samtel booth at Aero India 2011:

https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011


However, if I'm right and we select Rafale, Samtel might provide the HMS, the IRST channel of FSO and possibly even some displays (with HAL) as part of the offsets and with ToT. And I would bet that this would not only be the case for our order, but for other export customers as well, like the UAE, or Brazil that wanted HMS too!

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## sancho

ajaxpaul said:


>


 
That's a PS of a Rafale for Brazil, although I doubt they really would get this paint job, but here are some more PS:

*Rafale in Indian colors*







*And a Rafale in Russian colors*


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## Agnostic_Indian

The two-way datalink is
compatible with Eurofighter and
Gripen but not with Rafale which is
fitted with a one-way link originally
designed for use with MICA .
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor
how does it affect rafale compatibility with meteor ?


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> HMS is a must have for IAF, all upgraded and new fighters will have it, but when all features of the winning fighter will be released is hard to tell, several things might remain to be classified.
> Regarding Rafale and HMS, check this please:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-109.html#post1793194
> 
> 
> Also at the Paris air show we saw these pics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Topsight is a possibility for Rafale, which would even increase the commonality to upgraded Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29K, possibly Mig 29SMT and LCA as well (both not clear so far). Moreover, since we already have a JV with Thales and Samtel for it, with the new name, *Divy Drishti:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And did you noticed the fighter at the flatscreen in the background? Seems that I had the right feeling about the new Thales - Samtel JV, which not only include HMS for fighter and helicopter, but also an IRST and the following pics confirms, that the JV is about Rafales Front Sector Optronics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011#5574602953616028946
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011#5574600418386606114
> 
> 
> Here is the full gallery with a lot of interesting pics from the Samtel booth at Aero India 2011:
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/113153562711547449831/AeroIndia2011
> 
> 
> However, if I'm right and we select Rafale, Samtel might provide the HMS, the IRST channel of FSO and possibly even some displays (with HAL) as part of the offsets and with ToT. And I would bet that this would not only be the case for our order, but for other export customers as well, like the UAE, or Brazil that wanted HMS too!


 

Thank you fr your analysis. Firstly is there a difference between between the TOPSIGHT and the JV SAMTAL-Thales HMDS called "Divy Drishl"? I thought it was called TOPSIGHT-I, but which is more advanced/capable (if applicable). Good point about IRST, HMDS JVs and future export potential but would these be part of the MMRCA proposal to IAF right now (ie would Rafele, if picked, be delivered with these extras)? 


And I believe the IN MIG-29K, IAF UPG MIRAGE-2000-5, MIG-29 UPG and possibly LCA would all use (i have seen pics of a HMDS integrated on LCA but not sure if it is TOPSIGHT or Elbit, but Thaless would make sense in terms of commonality) TOPSIGHT as well as MKI in future with "SUPER" UPG standard.


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## sancho

Agnostic_Indian said:


> how does it affect rafale compatibility with meteor ?


 
As far as I understand it, only at re-targeting the missile, but anything else should work just like they do it with MICA now, which can get midcourse guidance by the launching fighter, or another Rafale via data link.




Abingdonboy said:


> Thank you fr your analysis. Firstly is there a difference between between the TOPSIGHT and the JV SAMTAL-Thales HMDS called "Divy Drishl"? I thought it was called TOPSIGHT-I, but which is more advanced/capable (if applicable). Good point about IRST, HMDS JVs and future export potential but would these be part of the MMRCA proposal to IAF right now (ie would Rafele, if picked, be delivered with these extras)?
> And I believe the IN MIG-29K, IAF UPG MIRAGE-2000-5, MIG-29 UPG and possibly LCA would all use (i have seen pics of a HMDS integrated on LCA but not sure if it is TOPSIGHT or Elbit, but Thaless would make sense in terms of commonality) TOPSIGHT as well as MKI in future with "SUPER" UPG standard.



Topsight - I was the initial name, can't tell you why they have changed it, or what exactly is the difference now, the specs on the Samtel site, as well as both pics looks pretty much the same.
If IAF requires HMS and a dedicated IRST, which is pretty likey, these will be available from the start of the delivery. Both the IRST and the Topsight HMS are developed and while the first is already operational, the latter might just need some minor integration and as I showed, early (futuristic) prototypes of the helmet were used on Rafale before. 
The reports about the Mig upgrade first talked about a new Russian HMS, but the recent reports said Topsight, also LCA prototypes uses the Israeli Dash HMS, but that doesn't mean that Topsight wouldn't be integrated at the end, for operational service. Especially IN, with Mig 29K and N-LCA might have interest on the same HMS for both fighters.

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## SpArK

*UAE best bet for French Rafale fighter jet deal​*





The United Arab Emirates is France&#8217;s best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale fighter jet, French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet has said.

The French company has still not found a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, billed as one of the most effective but also one of the most expensive fighter jets in the world.

The aircraft-maker had come close to securing a multi-billion-dollar deal with Brazil, but the Brazilian government has delayed its decision until 2012 and President Dilma Lousseff looks to be favoring rival Boeing&#8217;s F-18.

India has shortlisted the Rafale along with Eurofighter&#8217;s Typhoon for a 126-jet deal and talks are ongoing, although Mr. Longuet appeared to suggest they may have hit a snag.

*&#8220;Some countries have budget problems, as in Brazil&#8217;s case. They may also have political problems, as in India&#8217;s case. That leaves the Emirates and talks are advanced,&#8221; *Mr. Longuet told reporters in Paris.

The minister said the UAE was no longer demanding a more powerful engine, previously a condition for a deal, and said he thought Rafale airstrikes in Libya had helped sway the Emirati government.

&#8220;The operational and multi-role capacities of the Rafale are being proven on a daily basis with these strikes,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;The Libyan conflict is a clear demonstration that the current engine capacity is sufficient.&#8221;

The UAE has been in talks with Dassault since 2008 over the purchase of 60 Rafale jets, estimated at 10 billion dollars, to replace their fleet of Mirage 2000s which they bought in 1983.

Talks with Brazil have been going on for years, and Dassault came close to a deal with former president Luis Ignacio da Silva. But that was thrown into doubt by his successor President Dilma Roussef who demanded a review of all finalists&#8217; bids when she took office at the start of 2011.

Last week, Brazilian Defence Minister Nelson Jobim said the government would not re-examine bids until the start of 2012 as it needed to focus on its domestic agenda.

&#8220;The Rafale hasn&#8217;t been ruled out but that decision isn&#8217;t President Dilma Roussef&#8217;s main priority at the moment,&#8221; Mr. Longuet told reporters in Paris.

*Regarding the Indian talks, Mr. Longuet said he was confident the government preferred the Rafale and that the final decision would be technical rather than political.*

&#8220;Things seem to look good,&#8221; he said, adding that in India&#8217;s case too Libya had also had a positive effect.

UAE best bet for French Rafale fighter jet deal


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## DkBose

sad to see that every body tagetted libya for the demonstration of the fighters potential.

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## SpArK

DkBose said:


> sad to see that every body tagetted libya for the demonstration of the fighters potential.


 
You with rebels or with Gaddafi?


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## SpArK




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## sudhir007

Combat aircraft bids opening soon | defence | Combat Aircraft | The New Indian Express

*The commercial bids for the mother of all defence deals - for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), valuing over $10 billion, will be opened before July 31.*

*However, the winner of the contract - French Dassault or European Eurofighter - will be known only when the IAF finds out the lowest bidder based on various factors such as life cycle maintenance costs.*

*Highly-placed sources have indicated that the bids for the most-awaited tender will be opened within the next 10 days, before present IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik demits his office.*

The bids envelope will be opened soon.* But, the lowest bidder will not emerge immediately,* sources said and added*: We will be considering nine parameters, including life cycle cost, maintenance cost, cost of spare parts and so forth. The process is very tedious and will take couple of months before a price tag is put on the two down selected aircrafts.
*
The opening of the bids will be followed by commercial negotiations around September with the vendors before the signing of the contract. * The contract negotiations will be based on 538 parameters based on which the IAF has arrived at a reasonable cost for the contract, pointed the sources.*

After a gruelling two years of flight trial in different regions, IAF had zeroed on the Eurofighter from the European consortium EADS and Rafale from French Dassault. Earlier there were four more contenders, including two from the US - Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper and Boeings F-18 Super Hornet - Swedish SAABs Gripen and Russian MiG-35.

The sheer size of the order has made it one of the most coveted defence contracts of the recent times and all the countries have pulled the strings - politically, economically and strategically - to swing the decision in their favour.

The aircraft will help the IAF, the fourth largest air force in the world, to contain its depleting strength of the fighter squadrons which has come down to 32.5 from the sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons.

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## sudhir007



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## kingdurgaking

feeling sick of the pics nowerdays.. especially EFT and Rafale.. have seen lot of angels than the pilots himself would have seen it

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## SpArK

*Package, not just bid price, to decide $10.4-bn dogfight winner
​*
New Delhi: With commercial bids for the country&#8217;s $10.4-billion order for 126 multi-role combat jets likely to be opened by this month end, the stage is set for a showdown between two multi-role European fighters *as both try to prove economically-efficient option by including offers like the lifecycle and maintenance costs.*

Both the aircraft &#8212; Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault&#8217;s Rafale &#8212; are being deployed in policing the no-fly zone over Libya and both are seeking export sales to compensate for defence-spending cuts at home. However, the declaration of the successful bidder will take a while. According to the outgoing IAF chief, Air chief marshal PV Naik, *&#8220;Once the commercial bids are opened, the final decision would still take a couple of months as it is not just the price but the package in terms of direct costs, support programmes, training, offsets and lifecycle costs which would determine the winner.&#8221;*

*It may be noted that according to industry insiders, Rafale had quoted a price of $85 million per aircraft and Eurofighter $100 million per piece in flyaway condition in the recent Brazilian competition. For the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Rafale and Eurofighter quote is anybody&#8217;s guess, but according to the the industry the machines should cost anywhere between $75 million and $80 million per aircraft in flyaway condition.*

*The IAF will arrive at a final cost for the two aircraft based on various other factors like the lifecycle cost, maintenance cost, transfer of technology and cost of spare parts. Also, 50% of the total cost of the deal has to be invested in the Indian industry under the offsets obligation.
*


The two contenders have a long competitive history. France had pulled out of the early stages of the Eurofighter project 30 years ago and opted to build its own fighter plane, the Rafale, as a successor to the Mirage. Presently, Rafale is still looking for its first foreign customer, while the Eurofighter programme is facing various cutbacks home.

*According to Eurofighter officials, 280 Typhoons have already been delivered out of the 707 on contract to Germany, Italy, Spain, the UK, Austria and Saudi Arabia. Asked if Eurofighter is willing to &#8220;give away&#8221; its unique selling \propositions, including source codes of radars and design, for the &#8220;sake of 126 units&#8221;, the consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter programme.
*


*Rafale so far has sold just 180 aircraft to its own French air force at a cost of 142.3 million euros each, including material costs, investments made and the variables.* The French Court of Auditors Annual Public Report 2010 has pointed out that the French air force had initially placed an order for 320 aircraft, but the defence ministry downsized it to 280. Sources in the Indian government said, *&#8220;The European consortium, to give an edge to its offer, has invited India to become a partner for the Typhoon programme and also offered to establish a production line in India. The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF is presently operating. The Rafale&#8217;s inclusion would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure.&#8221;*

*According to the French audit report, in early 2000, sharp rise in material costs had created a cash crisis for the Rafale programme. Also, with no foreign buyers the price tag per piece of the aircraft is likely to go up. On the other hand, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, which partner the development and production of the Eurofighter Typhoon, are willing to put &#8220;everything on the table&#8221; under the technology transfer commitments if they win the contract to supply these aircraft to the IAF.
*

Package, not just bid price, to decide $10.4-bn dogfight winner

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## DkBose

gr8 chances for eft..


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## Jon Snow

calculating L1 will be tricky - lots of factors and will be almost impossible for us to predict like the mk2 engine deal - every defence journalist was reporting an almost certain victory for ej 200, but turned out pretty different in the end

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## sancho

> *Rafale and AASM-Hammer, a dynamic duo*
> 
> 20-07-2011 - As we have seen throughout recorded history, each new conflict seems to bring its own share of innovations. Recently, for example, the air strikes over Libya - Operation Harmattan for France, and Operation Unified Protector for NATO in the framework of the UN resolution 1973 - have spotlighted the unexpectedly powerful performance of a new French-made weapon, the AASM Hammer (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range) air-to-ground modular weapon developed and produced by Sagem...
> 
> ...According to Captain P, who is very satisfied with the performance of this new weapon, "In the Libyan theater of operations, as soon as we have the slightest suspicion of air defenses, which are always widely scattered in Libya, we remove the Paveway bombs and equip our Rafales with the AASM, *because it allows us to effectively engage the enemy, away from their air defenses, especially the dangerous SAM rings*. In TST (Time Sensitive Targeting) mode, the *AASMs range also allows us to hit a target without being detected from the ground*, a possibility in asymmetrical combat...
> 
> ..."*Over the last twenty years, the nature of warfare has changed completely: the enemy is more diffuse and the risks of collateral damage a major concern. So we need new systems that reduce detection and allow us to engage several targets simultaneously.* The AASM full meets these requirements for our operations in Libya, since it can be used not only for symmetrical combat, but also for asymmetrical combat as well as guerrilla operations.



Sagem


The captain is describing a very important point that should be very interesting for IAF as well, because in any future conflict IAF will not have air superiority anymore, like they had it during the Kargil war. Even if IAF now will have several fighters in the fleet than can do precision strikes with laser guided bombs, they will have to penetrate enemy airspace, approach until 10 to 20Km to the target (range of the guided bombs) and in case that the targets are seperated from each other, attack them in independent attack runs. Su 30 MKIs, or the upgraded Mig 29s might use GLONAS guided KAB bombs to attack different targets at the same time, but still have to get very close to them. Rafale and the upgraded Mirage 2000s with AASM on the other side will be much more survivable, because they can drop their weapons at nearly 3 times the range and attack different targets at the same time, so can remain at safe distance and with less time behind enemy borders. A clear tactical advantage for IAF in preemptive strikes, besides the other advantages they offer in deep strikes with Scalp cruise missiles, or heavy strikes with GBU 24 bunker busters.


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## sancho

DkBose said:


> gr8 chances for eft..


 
If they offer enough in return for the high costs and upgrade delays, yes. 




Jon Snow said:


> calculating L1 will be tricky - lots of factors and will be almost impossible for us to predict like the mk2 engine deal - every defence journalist was reporting an almost certain victory for ej 200, but turned out pretty different in the end


 
Both are very different stories, because at the engine deal the cost per unit was the main part to be L1 and it was clear from the start that the US engine was cheaper, while the EJ 200 was more advanced and offered more scope.
In MMRCA instead, it's not only the unit costs, but also the operational costs throughout the lifecycle, the upgrade costs, the costs of the licence production and ToT... and nobody than MoD/IAF will know exactly where they set the priorities and how they calculate it. By reported costs per unit and per hour the Rafale should be L1, that's all we can say at the moment.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> If they offer enough in return for the high costs and upgrade delays, yes.


 
Sancho- in your opinion, what 'offer enough in return' will satisfy you to go for EF?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Both are very different stories, because at the engine deal the cost per unit was the main part to be L1 and it was clear from the start that the US engine was cheaper, while the EJ 200 was more advanced and offered more scope.


 
Actually it is believed that EJ Quoted less as an engine .. but on a total .. it is GE which quoted less.. for instance EJ supplied machines and tools which have to be returned back after the contract... but GE gave it for free.. the reports EJ quoted less that came out was correct but on over all cost GE emerged the winner


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## anathema

kingdurgaking said:


> *Actually it is believed that EJ Quoted less as an engine* .. but on a total .. it is GE which quoted less.. for instance EJ supplied machines and tools which have to be returned back after the contract... but GE gave it for free.. the reports EJ quoted less that came out was correct but on over all cost GE emerged the winner


 
That is not entirely correct - EJ tried to revise the price of the bid in the last moment - which was not accepted by MoD. Due to which EJ turned out to be more expensive (even for engine to engine comparison) with respect to GE. If MoD had accepted the revised bid, then L1 would have been EJ.


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## kingdurgaking

anathema said:


> That is not entirely correct - EJ tried to revise the price of the bid in the last moment - which was not accepted by MoD. Due to which EJ turned out to be more expensive (even for engine to engine comparison) with respect to GE. If MoD had accepted the revised bid, then L1 would have been EJ.


 
It was not the price of the engine they where trying to ... put the over all price.. remember the engines where to be manufactured in India..


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## tvsram1992

Common frenchies offer us partnership we may buy >200 rafales .


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Sancho- in your opinion, what 'offer enough in return' will satisfy you to go for EF?


 
Hard to say, especially because I always look at what is best for our forces, rather then for politics, or industry. However, what we badly need is engine and radar technology, possibly participation of DARE on EFs EWS upgrades, so if they provide us much useful ToT in these fields, the costs and delays could be justified over the long term.
As I often stated, if we had the same offer for EF back in the time when we went with MKI, I would have fully supported the EF, because what we searched back than was more suiting to the capabilities of the EF and we could have participated more in the development and more towards our requirements. Today the fighter is not what our forces needs and the participation and future potential is limited, which makes the Rafale the better choice!




kingdurgaking said:


> Actually it is believed that EJ Quoted less as an engine .. but on a total .. it is GE which quoted less.. for instance EJ supplied machines and tools which have to be returned back after the contract... but GE gave it for free.. the reports EJ quoted less that came out was correct but on over all cost GE emerged the winner


 
Not sure about that, because the only source that said the EJ 200 was cheaper was Ajay Shukla, which turned out to be completelly wrong on that. Also keep in mind that there were some bribery allegations regarding the Europeans as well, but personally I think they simply choosed the cheapest and easiest to induct solution as a stop gap. GTRE and MoD wants the Kaveri - Snecma engine, while IAF wants an improved Kaveri K9 to power at least LCA MK1 after MLU, if not additional MK2s before. From this point of view, the GE engine was the logical choice, because we now use it's predecessor and from all reliable sources, it is cheaper per unit as well than the European engine.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> If they offer enough in return for the high costs and upgrade delays, yes.



Though an estimate but could this be an Indication?, See below....



> Rafale had quoted a price of *$85 *million per aircraft and Eurofighter *$100* million per piece in flyaway condition in the recent Brazilian competition...............but according to the the industry the machines should cost anywhere between *$75* million and *$80* million per aircraft in flyaway condition.


 
Look at the drop in prrice by the increase in number....Drop of $ 20 million for EFT against $10 million for Rafale?


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Though an estimate but could this be an Indication?, See below....
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the drop in prrice by the increase in number....Drop of $ 20 million for EFT against $10 million for Rafale?


 
The problem is, the EF was not shortlisted in Brazil and no price was reported, or negotiated there. Not sure where the author got this price from, but I think the EF T3B with AESA..., will cost clearly over $100 millions even for EF partners and since the production costs in Europe are similarly high, why should the licence production in India be so much more cheaper for EF?


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## Dash

sancho said:


> The problem is, the EF was not shortlisted in Brazil and no price was reported, or negotiated there. Not sure where the author got this price from, but I think the EF T3B with AESA..., will cost clearly over $100 millions even for EF partners and since the production costs in Europe are similarly high, why should the licence production in India be so much more cheaper for EF?


 
Well you are correct and to be honest the actual price will need some wait time.

But EF must have submitted the bid without AESA. Coz if they say the cost of fighter wil be $100 million a peice including AESA then they will submit a estimated bid than an actual one. The actual bid will not have all the jazz items that will come T3. correct?, hence keeping the price low. But not sure if its going to be $80 million...The same could be said for Rafale too..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not sure about that, because the only source that said the EJ 200 was cheaper was Ajay Shukla, which turned out to be completelly wrong on that. Also keep in mind that there were some bribery allegations regarding the Europeans as well, but personally I think they simply choosed the cheapest and easiest to induct solution as a stop gap. GTRE and MoD wants the Kaveri - Snecma engine, while IAF wants an improved Kaveri K9 to power at least LCA MK1 after MLU, if not additional MK2s before. From this point of view, the GE engine was the logical choice, because we now use it's predecessor and from all reliable sources, it is cheaper per unit as well than the European engine.


 
the fact what shukla got and EJ quoted was true and indeed EJ quoted less w.r.t to engines.. but in ToT to HAL whichwill include the whole price EJ lost.. the point they might have bribed is to present the new quoted price... If GE was the logical choice there wouldnt have been any bid..


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## Tshering22

Dash said:


> Well you are correct and to be honest the actual price will need some wait time.
> 
> But EF must have submitted the bid without AESA. Coz if they say the cost of fighter wil be $100 million a peice including AESA then they will submit a estimated bid than an actual one. The actual bid will not have all the jazz items that will come T3. correct?, hence keeping the price low. But not sure if its going to be $80 million...The same could be said for Rafale too..


 
The whole point of the bidding will include all the fancy add-ons that IAF wants with either of the winners. That's the whole point of bidding. Prices will be kept low say when EFT opens production line for sales in India if at all Typhoon wins. As of now, Rafale stands a better chance when it comes to multirole capabilities, cost, infrastructure and ease to deal with a single entity rather than 4 different ones.


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## sudhir007

Livefist: MMRCA Benchmarking Complete By IAF, Lowest Bidder In 5-6 Weeks


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## sudhir007

Winner of combat aircraft deal likely in 5-6 weeks: Naik -  

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik today said the likely winner of the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal would be known in the "next five to six" weeks.

"The next step is to call vendors and open up the commercial bids. I think in the next five to six weeks, I expect that the L1 (lowest bidder) would be decided," he said here.

As per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the lowest bidder in the multi vendor tenders is considered to be the winner of the deals.

European consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Dassault Rafale are the two companies in race for supplying 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Indian Air Force.

The two companies were shortlisted after a five-year long competition between six companies including the American Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian MiG 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen.

The IAF chief said that major procedures such as the completion of the Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee report have been finalised.

Commenting on the Mirage 2000 aircraft upgrade programme, Naik said the deal worth over Rs 10,900 crore would be signed soon under which 51 aircraft would be upgraded.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had recently cleared the proposal for upgrading 51 aircraft to the Mirage 2000-5 standards in collaboration with France.

On the results for procuring heavy-lift and attack helicopters, the IAF chief said the trials have been completed by the force and the trial report would be submitted to the Defence Ministry soon.


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## Avishek

I am late for the vote.so i will cheer on the typhoon. Rafale is a useless aircfart for us.no country apart from the french has ordered the rafale it is a proof of how utter rubbish this aircraft is. EF all the way.


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## coffin

Avishek said:


> I am late for the vote.so i will cheer on the typhoon. Rafale is a useless aircfart for us.no country apart from the french has ordered the rafale it is a proof of how utter rubbish this aircraft is. EF all the way.


 
Buddy just because no one has placed orders for this plane doesnot make it a useless plane the truth is that one needs to see his requirments before ordering a plane , Right now IAF is operating many air superiority aircrafts (su30,mig29) what it needs is a true multirole aircrafts which is RAfale . And BTW in most of the deals Rafale has lost to the American fighters and you know what kind of political pressure they apply to win a deal.
And Typhoon is really a nice plane but without its tranche3 its seriously lacks bomding capabillity so Ithink IAF should go for RAFALE.


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## coffin

Tshering22 said:


> The whole point of the bidding will include all the fancy add-ons that IAF wants with either of the winners. That's the whole point of bidding. Prices will be kept low say when EFT opens production line for sales in India if at all Typhoon wins. As of now, Rafale stands a better chance when it comes to multirole capabilities, cost, infrastructure and ease to deal with a single entity rather than 4 different ones.


 
Yeah Rafale is a complete package of capabillities what IAF is looking or should look but don't you think the double dealing habit of French and their willingness to sell advance weapons to Porkies should affect this deal. And don't think that Dassault is asking tooooooooo much money much more than what they are offering to us.


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## dr.crazze

coffin said:


> Yeah Rafale is a complete package of capabillities what IAF is looking or should look but don't you think the double dealing habit of French and their willingness to sell advance weapons to Porkies should affect this deal. And don't think that Dassault is asking tooooooooo much money much more than what they are offering to us.


 you are too right sir the best thing in the french plane is that their performance is best we have seen this in kargil war with mirage2000 their sortie rate is almost double than the russian counterpart as for rafale its really multirole as it is designed with multirole in mind the only lacking is the engine m88 if uprated then it is the best of the best whereas the ef has many problems as the weapons not tested or integrated the eurojet 2000 is a decent engine but serviceability of m88 is best if india keeps politics aside than they should go for rafale

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## SpArK

*Exchange Rate Behind UAE Rafale Balk: Dassault​*
PARIS - *The price resistance from the United Arab Emirates on the Rafale fighter jet stems from an unfavorable euro-dollar exchange rate, but talks on the French aircraft continue, Dassault Aviation executive chairman Charles Edelstenne said July 28.
*

The UAE's discussion with Lockheed Martin* about a potential purchase of additional F-16 fighters was "not a negative sign," Edelstenne told a press conference on the company's results for the first half of the year*.

"Talks are going on," he said.

*But with the euro at $1.40, the Rafale's sale price was boosted by the currency exchange rate, Edelstenne said. Dassault could not cut prices by 40 percent to offset the weaker dollar.*

"I make Mirages, not miracles," he said.

The euro was trading at $1.43 in early afternoon, with the dollar under severe pressure from the U.S. government impasse on raising the debt-ceiling limit ahead of the Aug. 2 deadline.

Edelstenne refused to disclose the unit price of a Rafale, but he said an export purchase generally involves a political decision to pay a "price premium" that granted "independence of action." As the Rafale is built in France, reflecting a strategic decision on sovereignty, its costs are in euros, making it more expensive than an American fighter aircraft sold in dollars.

On the French government's July 20 decision to start negotiations with Dassault on a supply of the Heron TP medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) UAV, Edelstenne said this meant sustaining a French design capability in military aircraft instead of paying for the "Messerschmitt design office" in EADS.

Edelstenne said in picking OHB over EADS, Germany made similar national selections in its space procurement.

Asked what the significance was in selecting Dassault as supplier of an interim MALE UAV, Edelstenne said the choice showed a determination to maintain a French national capability in building combat aircraft, as the next manned fighter jet would not enter service for another 30 to 40 years.

The negotiations would determine what sensors and communications payloads would go on the Israeli Aerospace Industries' UAV air vehicle, which is intended to provide an interim solution until the planned Anglo-French new generation MALE UAV enters service, expected in 2020.

IAI has agreed to disclose technical information on the Heron TP, which will be adapted to French requirements, including the ability to carry weapons, Edelstenne said.

The interim MALE UAV could have a service life of around 10 years and could overlap with the new Anglo-French air system, a company executive said.

On an asset swap under negotiation between Safran and Thales, Edelstenne said the airplane engine and equipment maker was holding up a deal by saying "no" to each new proposal from the electronics company. That forced Thales into a corner, he said.

"The valuation levels are a bit extraordinary," Edelstenne said.

Dassault signed an agreement with the government on an asset swap when it took its 26 percent stake in Thales, covering inertial navigation, onboard electricity generation and optronics, Edelstenne said.

Safran's sales in optronics are worth around 600 million euros, and if the business were put into Thales, that would make the electronics company second or third in the world market for electro-optics.

At the Paris Air Show in June, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the government would impose a settlement if industry failed to reach a voluntary agreement.

Edelstenne said he was "very satisfied" with the Thales first-half results, which were released on July 27. The results displayed early effects of the Probasis restructuring plan and improved management of large programs and contract negotiations, he said.

Dassault reported a 35 percent fall in net profit to 129 million euros from 197 million euros a year ago, as sales dropped 34 percent to 1.32 billion euros from 1.99 billion euros.

The sales and profit slide came from lower deliveries of the Falcon business jet, with a delay in shipment of the Falcon 7X into the second half.

Orders declined to 95 million euros from 99 million euros.

On a production rate of one unit per month, Dassault has delivered six Rafale jets so far this year out of 180 total orders to date.

Privately, company executives expect the French government to stretch out future Rafale orders because of expected defense budget cuts, especially if export contracts are won.

Besides the UAE, Dassault hopes to sell the Rafale to India, Brazil and Switzerland. India is holding to its timetable to buy 126 medium-range combat aircraft, and the Swiss government has shown renewed interest in replacing its F-5 fighters.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7226552&c=AIR&s=TOP&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Exchange Rate Behind UAE Rafale Balk: Dassault​*...
> 
> ...*But with the euro at $1.40, the Rafale's sale price was boosted by the currency exchange rate, Edelstenne said. Dassault could not cut prices by 40 percent to offset the weaker dollar.*...


 
Good that we don't have these problems in MMRCA, because both fighters are paid in Euros, the important point will be, which package offers the most for the costs?


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## luckyyy

*United Arab Emirates (UAE) finds Rafale combat jet too expensive *


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## luckyyy

what the possiblility that both jets goes out of threshold limits of the MMRCA allocated fund..

will the next in line jets would be called for ?


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## SpArK

luckyyy said:


> what the possiblility that both jets goes out of threshold limits of the MMRCA allocated fund..
> 
> will the next in line jets would be called for ?


 
Its expected that the price will come down from the initial tender.

I dont think there is any possibility to next in line jet calling, but if thats the case would love to see Hornets in IAF colors.


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## coffin

crazzze said:


> you are too right sir the best thing in the french plane is that their performance is best we have seen this in kargil war with mirage2000 their sortie rate is almost double than the russian counterpart as for rafale its really multirole as it is designed with multirole in mind the only lacking is the engine m88 if uprated then it is the best of the best whereas the ef has many problems as the weapons not tested or integrated the eurojet 2000 is a decent engine but serviceability of m88 is best if india keeps politics aside than they should go for rafale


 
But don't think that since India has signed the Mirage deal which includes tot(mirage mk2 has taken most of the stuff from rafale) so IAF may think to go for typhoon in order to get tot of both the planes.


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## wind

There is no doubt that EF is a better fighter than Rafale but I dont see what purpose it will serve for India when it already have MKI and FGFA in pipe line


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## Abingdonboy

In the period immediately after the April down select I thought Dassualt had it in the bag but as time has worn on and given recent developments it certainly seems as though the tide is swinging in favour of EFT.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Its expected that the price will come down from the initial tender.
> 
> I dont think there is any possibility to next in line jet calling, but if thats the case would love to see Hornets in IAF colors.


 

infect in the case of a Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonablen in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer , Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations.
The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.

http://www.stratpost.com/the-long-road-to-the-mmrca-shortlist

what is not clear though is , does there is a reasonable benchmark price set in present scenario where two jets are shortlisted ..


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## dbc

luckyyy said:


> infect in the case of a Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonablen in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer , Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations.
> The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.&#8217;
> 
> The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost
> 
> what is not clear though is , does there is a reasonable benchmark price set in present scenario where two jets are shortlisted ..


 
A bench mark for 'reasonable price' is established regardless of the number of vendors shortlisted, if L1 is over the bench mark estimate, the contract negotiation team will attempt to bring L1 as close to the bench mark estimate as possible. L1 may also be disregarded for strategic benefit one of the shortlisted offering brings to India.


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## tallboy123

Still Rafale leads EF in the polls above


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## RockyX

*Rafale*

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## jha

*Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise*



> For years, Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the worlds largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.





> Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.
> 
> For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighters and Dassaults bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.





> The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAFs order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russias MiG; Swedens Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighters and Dassaults quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.





> One eliminated contestant sources the Rafales price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassaults quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.





> The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a life-cycle basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.





> Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.
> 
> Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher, says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.





> _A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF._ A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.
> 
> _We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP, said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martins Vice President for Business Development_.
> 
> _Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, *we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016*, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.
> _
> *Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it in the mid-60s, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.*



Broadsword: Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

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## jha

So, If RAFALE and EF have quoted too high, we might see F-35 in IAF colours if they start the delivery in 2016 as promised..


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## saurav

> So, If RAFALE and EF have quoted too high, we might see F-35 in IAF colours if they start the delivery in 2016 as promised..



We should get F-35 instead of costly european planes. A next gen. plane.


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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> *Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broadsword: Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise




For me, at least, things just got interesting- are the IAF really willing to pay such a HUGE price tag for out dated (relative to F-35 as its 5th GEN) planes when the next gen is no only much cheaper but also "future proof".


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## RockyX

Abingdonboy said:


> For me, at least, things just got interesting- are the IAF really willing to pay such a HUGE price tag for out dated (relative to F-35 as its 5th GEN) planes when the next gen is no only much cheaper but also "future proof".


 
Rafale and ET are most closed to 5th Generation Air Craft. They are 4.5th Generation Jets. F-18, Gripen and Sukhoi 35/30MKI are also 4.5th But little behind.

But Problem is not that. Our need is immediate and not after 2017-2018. We can't wait for 8-10 years. Also, We have Final Deal for PAKFA / FGFA (250-300 5th Generation Air craft fighter) and Also another 5th Generation Air Craft AMCA work will also start at that time too. After 2017, we will be getting 5th Generation Air craft in any case. Before that we need to add 4.5th Generation ACF to keep squadron upto mark quality and quantity too.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

You Guys become really so Gullible whenever Ajay Shukla writes.

This writer claimed that EJ 200 engine had won for Tejas but later we found out it was GE 414.

Now he is claiming an F-35 comes with a cost of 60 million. if that is so then instead of developing Tejas which is going to cost 60 million or so, why can't we buy 200 F-35 instead of Tejas and replace our MIG 21. Why go for mirage upgrade, in that amount we could have about 40 F-35.

I have a question, how many of you really believe that F -35 costs only 60 million? that is insane.


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## SpArK

Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise



> One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale&#8217;s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo-based daily, Folha de S Paulo, pegged the Rafale bid at $6.2 billion (plus another $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reported the $6.2-billion bid was a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault&#8217;s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.


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## SpArK

> if the* MoD committee that is benchmarking the MMRCA concludes Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50 per cent, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter&#8217;s and Dassault&#8217;s bids are opened and if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender.* On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.
> The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and the Rafale, acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF&#8217;s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia&#8217;s MiG; Sweden&#8217;s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors told Business Standard they believed Eurofighter&#8217;s and Dassault&#8217;s quotes would be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials would be fruitless.
> 
> [/U][/B].




Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise

Chances of scrapping the deal altogether????


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise
> 
> Chances of scrapping the deal altogether????


 
scrapping the deal won't work coz they have no chince but to buy one of the six contenders coz they are the only six available presently...
as far as benchmarking is concern , there is no doubt now that both the present shortlisted will fail...

then i think IAF will again look back into the evaluation results and try to figure out which two next in line fill their requirments at the closest...

to my understanding MIG-35 is still alive !!

*or just buy more MKIs...simple as it !!*

[note : could it be right to connect this to the resent comments made by the RAF cheif regarding EF outclass mki in resent air excercise , it could be that IAF officials has indicated that if mmrca contenders fail to meet benchmark price IAF will buy mkis .......]


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## Archie

luckyyy said:


> scrapping the deal won't work coz they have no chince but to buy one of the six contenders coz they are the only six available presently...
> as far as benchmarking is concern , there is no doubt now that both the present shortlisted will fail...
> 
> then i think IAF will again look back into the evaluation results and try to figure out which two next in line fill their requirments at the closest...
> 
> to my understanding MIG-35 is still alive !!
> 
> *or just buy more MKIs...simple as it !!*
> 
> [note : could it be right to connect this to the resent comments made by the RAF cheif regarding EF outclass mki in resent air excercise , it could be that IAF officials has indicated that if mmrca contenders fail to meet benchmark price IAF will buy mkis .......]


 
Well , that could actually be the case , However , there is no chance for Mig35 and F16 , BUT SUPERHORNET AND GRIPEN COULD GET A LOOK OVER

However it would make us look ridiculous if we cancel the mmrca project 
Also GOI has stated that it is willing to add additional 2 Billion USD to the 10.4 Billion USD Contract , eventually everything actually depends on the benchmarking report 
However there is still a chance that mmrca could still be cancelled if both the RAFALE and Typhoon exceed the 14 Billion USD pricetag for 126 aircrafts which is likely to be the benchmark price likely to be announced in september 
Frankly , it is guaranteed that E/F will exceed the price tag simply becoz even today most sources place the E/F at 110-120 Million USD
While Rafale is priced at anywhere between 90-105 Billion USD , French also are more desperate for Indian Order than EADS thats coz Rafale only has an order book of 180 aircrafts ordered by french Airforce , compared to that EADS eventually sell more than 500 Typhoons


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## Archie

Incase both E/F and Rafale are unable to meet Benchmark and GOI decides not to request next in line bidder for a quotation , then mmrca could well be cancelled 
Such a senario is quite scary coz that would leave a big hole in Indian Fighter numbers which would need to be filled 
As it is 126 MMRCA are required to replace around 135 Mig27 and Jaguar ie 7 sqds 
While LCA MK1 and Su30MKI will replace 170 odd Mig21 currently in service


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## RockyX

*India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet*

LONDON/NEW DELHI: In anticipation of winning the Indian Air Force's $10.4 billion tender for 126combat jets, European consortium EADS has offered India a choice to pioneer a project for a naval version of theEurofighter Typhoon that is in the fray in what is being described as the "mother of all defence deals". 

Typhoon's competitor in themedium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, the French firm Dassault's Rafale, already has a naval version that is operational on France's lonenuclear-powered aircraft carrierCharles de Gaulle. 

Officials of BAE Systems, one of the four partner companies in EADS for theTyphoon programme, told IANS during a visit to their RAF Warton production facility in Britain recently that India can exercise the choice of being a partner nation and leading the programme for the carrier-borne version of the aircraft if it wins theMMRCA tender. At present, Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany are partners in the Typhoon programme. 

According to theBAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it. 

Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea. 

The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier,INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes. 

The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer. 

First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at theSevmash shipyard in Russia. 

The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia. 

For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers. 

But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.

India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet - The Economic Times


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> In the period immediately after the April down select I thought Dassualt had it in the bag but as time has worn on and *given recent developments it certainly seems as though the tide is swinging in favour of EFT*.


 
Did I missed something?  As far as I see it, the recent decision for the Mirage upgrades even increased the chances of Rafale to win, because because of more commonality and lower costs. So can you explain what recent developments would have favoured the EF other than EF fake PR about beeing better in A2G, or that they smashed the MKI?


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## Abingdonboy

Archie said:


> Incase both E/F and Rafale are unable to meet Benchmark and GOI decides not to request next in line bidder for a quotation , then mmrca could well be cancelled
> Such a senario is quite scary coz that would leave a big hole in Indian Fighter numbers which would need to be filled
> As it is 126 MMRCA are required to replace around 135 Mig27 and Jaguar ie 7 sqds
> While LCA MK1 and Su30MKI will replace 170 odd Mig21 currently in service


 


Archie said:


> Well , that could actually be the case , However , there is no chance for Mig35 and F16 , BUT SUPERHORNET AND GRIPEN COULD GET A LOOK OVER
> 
> However it would make us look ridiculous if we cancel the mmrca project
> Also GOI has stated that it is willing to add additional 2 Billion USD to the 10.4 Billion USD Contract , eventually everything actually depends on the benchmarking report
> However there is still a chance that mmrca could still be cancelled if both the RAFALE and Typhoon exceed the 14 Billion USD pricetag for 126 aircrafts which is likely to be the benchmark price likely to be announced in september
> Frankly , it is guaranteed that E/F will exceed the price tag simply becoz even today most sources place the E/F at 110-120 Million USD
> While Rafale is priced at anywhere between 90-105 Billion USD , French also are more desperate for Indian Order than EADS thats coz Rafale only has an order book of 180 aircrafts ordered by french Airforce , compared to that EADS eventually sell more than 500 Typhoons


 
I am almost certain MoD/GoI won't do such a thing and will pat whatever (within reason) to procure the 126 MMRCA. This is for a number of reasons:
1) IAF/MoD/GoI would be made to look extremely foolish and incredible for future defence deals. 
2) would jeopardise future deals where contenders may pullout at early stages or offer sub/standard equipment just to "fit the bill"
4) would put GoI/MoD at a disadvantage in future negations and may have adverse effects on prices
3) the scrapping/reassessing eliminated AC would put IAF capabilities at risk as they need these planes urgently to fill a need and the eliminated AC have been thrown out for a reason (whatever that may be) and IAF have picked what fighters they want. 
4) all the money that has been spent by IAF in evaluating the planes (a very expensive task) and money spent by candidates would look to be wasted and would leave many disgruntled parities. 

For these reasons and others I just can't see the MMRCA being scrapped amd GoI/MoD may have to bite the bullet on the cost side in the short run, to focus on the bigger picture in the long run.


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## luckyyy

Abingdonboy said:


> I am almost certain MoD/GoI won't do such a thing and will pat whatever (within reason) to procure the 126 MMRCA. This is for a number of reasons:
> 1) IAF/MoD/GoI would be made to look extremely foolish and incredible for future defence deals.
> 2) would jeopardise future deals where contenders may pullout at early stages or offer sub/standard equipment just to "fit the bill"
> 4) would put GoI/MoD at a disadvantage in future negations and may have adverse effects on prices
> 3) the scrapping/reassessing eliminated AC would put IAF capabilities at risk as they need these planes urgently to fill a need and the eliminated AC have been thrown out for a reason (whatever that may be) and IAF have picked what fighters they want.
> 4) all the money that has been spent by IAF in evaluating the planes (a very expensive task) and money spent by candidates would look to be wasted and would leave many disgruntled parities.
> 
> For these reasons and others I just can't see the MMRCA being scrapped amd GoI/MoD may have to bite the bullet on the cost side in the short run, to focus on the bigger picture in the long run.


 
UAE not buying these expensive stuff almost over 4-5 years of negotiations, do they looking foolish and incredible for future defence deals ?

do brazil looking foolish and incredible for future defence deals....


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> UAE not buying these expensive stuff almost over 4-5 years of negotiations, do they looking foolish and incredible for future defence deals ?
> 
> do brazil looking foolish and incredible for future defence deals....


 
UAE is negotiating about the costs, that's all! There is hardly any doubt that they wouldn't buy Rafale soon, because the French agreed to most of their conditions and there is no other alternative that could buy back the Mirage 2000-9s and integrate the Black Shaheen missiles. That's why those media speculations about F18SH, or more F16s are just nicely placed PR to put pressure on the French, for more cost reduction. 
And in Brazil the Rafale is still the frontrunner, it just has a new competitior, because the former president prefered Rafale, or Gripen, while the new one will take a decision between Rafale and F18SH. If Brazil can afford the Rafale after their budget cuts, it's clearly the best choice for them, because just like in MMRCA, ToT, offsets and improving the indigenous defence industry are important points, where the French have clear advantages over the US, or Sweden.


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## Hulk

India not buying is not possible.


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## Hulk

India not buying is not possible.


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## sudhir007

..:: India Strategic ::. Rafale will come with fill ToT

Executive Vice President International Eric Trappier told India Strategic that Dassault was hopeful of winning the Indian Air Force (IAF) competition for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and that the company would have no hesitation in transferring the &#8220;best onboard technologies, both for IAF and Indian Navy if the latter opted for it also for its future aircraft carriers.&#8221;

He and his team were in regular touch with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD), and like the other rival in the MMRCA competition, he was waiting for the commercial bids to open. He was sure, he said, that Rafale would be economical and cheaper than the competition in the short and long run. &#8220;We have had a long relationship with India spanning 50 years and we want this to be longer.&#8221;

Trappier was also hopeful of the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract to be signed soon. Although most of the upgradation would be done by the technology company Thales, the aircraft were originally sold by Dassault, which now has a substantial stake in Thales.

After the upgradation, the Mirage 2000 would be as good as new Mirage 2005 aircraft, possibly with some better technologies than before.

Thales is providing Electronic Warfare (EW) suites, combat radars, displays, helmet mounted cueing systems and some of the weapons for both the Mirage and Rafale. The latter though would have the advantage of modern AESA radars and possibly Ultra Violet or Infra Red Search and Track (UV or IR ST) systems for well Beyond the Visual Range (BVR) engagement and neutralization of hostile targets. 

These systems would be compatible with most of the precision weapons.

On offer is also the latest Air to Air Meteor missile developed by MBDA.

Rafale was also stated to have lower radar signature due to the integration of its engine intakes with the body. &#8220;If you look at it from the front, it is like a bird with natural contours, not extruding inlets.&#8221; And the aircraft would have less fuel consumption than others, which would both be economical and strategic in war time, when fuel supplies are invariably in short supplies.

Trappier described the Rafale as an omni role fighter, and said that it was the only aircraft already operating both from land and sea and that its capabilities had been demonstrated both to the IAF and Indian Navy. France&#8217;s only aircraft carrier, Charles de Gaulle, had done exercises with the Indian Navy and also visited Mumbai recently.

Asked about the combat radars and weapons, he pointed out that Dassault&#8217;s associate company Thales had already developed and validated the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and &#8220;it would be on board the aircraft ordered by India well in time.&#8221;

In fact, there would be other systems and weapons which would also be delivered to the IAF to its satisfaction.

Asked about reports that some of the weapons were available only with the US companies, like the Raytheon High Speed Anti Radiation Missile (HARM), and that even if a company was willing to sell them, the approval would have to still from the US Government, Trappier said that he was hopeful that there would be no problem.

Notably, all the six contestants in the MMRCA fray had promised to meet all the IAF requirements.

There would have to be some diplomatic intervention perhaps at a later stage between the winner and its country/ countries of manufacture as well as the US to secure this arrangement. Maybe India&#8217;s goodwill will play a role irrespective of which of the two finalists bags the world&#8217;s biggest aircraft order yet.

Indications are that New Delhi would order nearly 200 aircraft, 126 as per the tender, and 63 mentioned in the option clause.


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## angeldemon_007

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest


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## SpArK

*Exercise Winter Hide: Italian 4° Stormo Eurofighter jets hosted the Royal Danish Air Force in February 2011*


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## sudhir007

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest

Radar and engine performance shortcomings were to blame for the MiG-35 failing to make the shortlist in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The revelations are contained in feedback from India to Russia's arms export agency, Rosboronexport.

The MiG-35's radar, the Zhuk-MAE active electronically scanned array (AESA), from Russia's Phazotron, failed to achieve the required acquisition and tracking ranges. And its Klimov RD-33MK engines also fell short of the Indian performance criteria.

Speaking to the media on 3 August, Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of MiG's engineering centre, said: "The Klimov and Chernyshev [engine companies] briefed [India] at length about their capabilities and intentions to improve their offering, but unfortunately their arguments were not taken into account."

Despite this, the same RD-33MK met Indian navy requirements and powers the newly-built MiG-29K/KUB fighters being delivered to the service.

Barkovsky also defended the Zhuk-MAE AESA radar, pointing out that the prototype nature of the model fitted to the MiG-35 meant that it did not meet the tender specifications, particularly regarding range.

*He said: "We told the tender committee that this particular unit is experimental, and that in future we will make a larger radar antenna [capable of being used at a longer range]."*

*Barkovsky pointed out that the Eurofighter Typhoon is yet to be fitted with a working AESA radar.

"While the Russians demonstrated their radar fitted to the real fighter and working, [Eurofighter] demonstrated their radar on a helicopter," he said.*

"The positive outcome of the Indian tender is that we made a huge effort on the radar development and demonstrated what nobody expected of us, and thus surprised many, including some in our home country." Barkovsky added.

The company will continue the MiG-35 project, he said, and look for other export customers.


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## sudhir007

Dassault May Sell 63 Rafales to UAE This Year, Tribune Says - Bloomberg

Negotiations between the United Arab Emirates and the French government and Dassault Aviation SA (AM) over the sale of about 63 Rafale fighter planes have picked up again, with a deal expected between September and year-end, La Tribune reported, without saying where it got the information.

Such an order would be worth between 6 billion euros ($8.5 billion) and 8 billion euros, the French newspaper said. The negotiations include plans for the purchase of Meteor missiles built by MBDA, a missile maker comprised of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., BAE Systems Plc (BA/) and Italy&#8217;s Finmecanicca SpA.


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## marcos98




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## Zabaniyah

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...on-trophy-royal-international-air-tattoo.html


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## jha

sudhir007 said:


> Dassault May Sell 63 Rafales to UAE This Year, Tribune Says - Bloomberg
> 
> Negotiations between the United Arab Emirates and the French government and Dassault Aviation SA (AM) over the sale of about 63 Rafale fighter planes have picked up again, with a deal expected between September and year-end, La Tribune reported, without saying where it got the information.
> 
> Such an order would be worth between 6 billion euros ($8.5 billion) and 8 billion euros, the French newspaper said. The negotiations include plans for the purchase of Meteor missiles built by MBDA, a missile maker comprised of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., BAE Systems Plc (BA/) and Italy&#8217;s Finmecanicca SpA.



So, a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...Interesting..


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## SpArK

*New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot​*








This very interesting advert for the Gripen NG appears in the current edition of India's biggest news magazine, India Today. *It says a lot of things. One, it appears three months after the Gripen was officially eliminated from the Indian MMRCA competition. Two, and more interestingly, Saab's creative concept has shifted away from simply highlighting the Gripen's virtues (also of "autonomy" and "independence"), and now takes a direct shot at the two finalists in the competition -- the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale -- on cost and stated capability. In short, Saab believes it still has a chance, and this fight isn't finished. *

In one part, the advert says, *"Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have." Ouch. 
*

Also, "[The Gripen IN] has taken the essential philosophy behind the Gripen to the next level, making it a fighter of the latest generation priced at less than half of its peers and operating at a fraction of the cost." The folks at Saab know all too well how delicate the next step in the MMRCA selection will be -- the opening of bids and toss-ups against a benchmark price, understood to be ready and defined. 

It gets better. The ad goes on the declare* "Today, India has a choice". Hmm, yep -- between the Typhoon and Rafale, right? Well, there's nothing official about it, but it's been rumoured for a while that the four companies that were eliminated three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter competition (including Saab), have been "asked" to stick around in the country. The applicability of the aphorism "it ain't over, till it's over"* to Indian defence contracting has much to do with what some see as a track that runs parallel to the ongoing selection process. A track that appears to internalize the possibility of complete chaos.

Livefist: New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | People In Defence | Typhoon pilot clocks up 1,000 flying hours over Libya


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## Vibs

SpArK said:


> Ministry of Defence | Defence News | People In Defence | Typhoon pilot clocks up 1,000 flying hours over Libya


 
Is it me or did that look a lot like a marketing promo???


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## SpArK

Gripen argument is getting bigger. Uncertainity over pricing and high value currencies along with huge cost...Its aint over until its over.


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## Abingdonboy

Why do SAAB insist on preaching their " independent" credentials when their engines and a large amount of the avionics are from the US and it was under US pressure that the Gripen was not offered with Israeli made AESA radar. They have shown their "independence".

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Gripen argument is getting bigger. Uncertainity over pricing and high value currencies along with huge cost...Its aint over until its over.


 
Not really, because the main argument against it was always LCA Tejas and there is no reason why we should get a fighter that is as undeveloped as the MK2 and Sweden and Saab are simply too small to be an important partner for India. Also keep in mind the technical shortfalls regarding IAF requirements, in terms of radar, or TWR. It had very low chances from the start and is out now, but Saab is desperate as well and that's why they still going in with their PR, but that won't convince IAF/MoD.




Abingdonboy said:


> Why do SAAB insist on preaching their " independent" credentials when their engines and a large amount of the avionics are from the US and it was under US pressure that the Gripen was not offered with Israeli made AESA radar. They have shown their "independence".


 
Fake PR! They might have the choice to mix weapons and techs from different or origins, according the needs or wishes of the customer, but that makes them dependend on the countries that provides these techs as too. They didn't get the French radar because of Dassault pressure on Thales, they didn't get the Israeli radar because of US pressure on Elta, they need approval of Italy and UK for the new radar and IRST techs... ... ...
We are as "independent" to choose the GE 414 engine for LCA MK2, could easily get the same radar or IRST from Selex and even a mixed French/Israeli avionics package, so what's the difference?
Rafale and EF manufacturers developed their main techs alone and are fully independent to provide us with ToT, or improvements if we want, without foreign approval and that's what really makes them an independent choice for us.


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## SpArK

Subject to the approval of the U.S. government, Raytheon&#8217;s laser-guided Maverick could be integrated on the MMRCA finalist and IAF's Jaguar


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## SpArK

Maverick


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I think IAF might go for maverick.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Subject to the approval of the U.S. government, Raytheon&#8217;s laser-guided Maverick could be integrated on the MMRCA finalist and IAF's Jaguar


 
Doubtful, even the US are developing the replacement for it, while the EF and Rafale might get Brimstone soon, which might be on offer for the Jags possibly as well. Not to forget that we develop HELINA, which could be added to fighters as well, which should be the best and most cost-effective choice.


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## sudhir007

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/IDR-Updates/A-Diplomatic-View-of-the-MMRCA-Deal.html

India&#8217;s tender for 126 Medium Range Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been the object of intensive and prolonged international interest. Such a massive order for advanced aircraft by a single country for procurement from the international market is rare. All the major defence equipment exporters in the world have been eyeing this $10 billion contract avidly, with US, Russia, France, Sweden and the European consortium of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain in the fray. The total value of this contract will, of course, be much more than the $10 billion price tag being currently mentioned if the supply of spare parts, upgrades etc over the 30 to 40 year service life of the aircraft are taken into account. There are other fall-outs also, as such a major contract creates mutual stakes and networks of cooperation between defence establishments, with a catalytic effect not only in enhancing defence cooperation in general, but in improving political relations as well.

Click for IDR subscription

A lot of suspense has accompanied this tender, with a great deal of uncertainty about which aircraft would eventually be shortlisted for final selection. Observers were unclear whether the evaluation process would be purely technical, or would be influenced by political considerations. In any case, the general belief is that decisions on such high-value defence contracts that have an important political fall-out can never be divorced from politics and therefore can never be purely technical.

...if the US can impose an arms embargo against China despite the intensity of their economic and financial ties and the need to manage their conflicting strategic interests in East Asia which carries its own compulsions of keeping China in good humour, why cannot the US revise its policy of arming a country that is unstable, almost failing as a state in US eyes, irresponsible on nuclear matters, and most responsible for the dangerous spread of extremism and terrorism in the region and well beyond?

The lack of confidence in our defence procurement process, with its inordinate delays and lack of transparency, added to speculation about the time-frame of decision making. The marked bureaucratic apathy in the Ministry of Defence, with officials inclined to avoid taking responsibility for decisions and delaying them as much as possible so as to protect themselves from potential controversies later, was seen as good reason to expect procrastination. The noxious games played by competing companies against each other, roping in members of parliament and planting press articles to cast doubt on the probity of the evaluation process and the final award, which has featured as an unpalatable side-show of defence deals in India, was expected to play its part too in deferring decisions.
It was widely believed that the evaluation process would be highly complex in any case, with the performance parameters listed for the aircraft being too numerous, and none of the competing aircraft expected to meet all of them in trials. Beyond this, it was bandied about by cynics that even if the Air Force were to do a purely objective performance-based exercise in evaluating the aircraft, its final recommendation would watch for signals from the Ministry of Defence.

In the event, the evaluation process for the MMRCA deal has proceeded remarkably well. A very difficult exercise has been completed in good time. Confidentiality has been maintained, apart from the bizarre instance of an off-sets related file being found in a most unlikely place. Despite efforts by interested parties to probe into the progress of the evaluation process, no substantial leakage of information seems to have occurred, indicating, to the credit of those involved, that the integrity of the process was maintained. The most striking aspect of the technical evaluation is, however, the rather unexpected result. Only the Eurofighter and the Rafale have been retained in the short list for final selection; the two US aircraft have been excluded from further consideration.
The most active in striving to win the MMRCA contract have been the US companies. Their preparatory work in the field has been the most vigorous at the political, official and business levels, including tying up with Indian companies in the private sector for fulfilling the exacting off-set obligations of the contract &#8211; up to 50 percent of its value. The Americans understood no doubt that this contract provided an opportunity to capture a large share of the Indian defence market, changing dramatically the paradigm of India-US defence ties, hitherto marked by reticence on the Indian side to put itself in a position of long term dependence on the US for a crucial part of its defence preparedness. The Americans must have also judged that the political conditions had become sufficiently favourable to them to eye this massive contract seriously, with the rise of trust levels in the US in the Indian security establishment after the Indo-US nuclear deal, and with a perceived pro-US government in power in Delhi.
The Americans seemed to have proceeded on the assumption that with India placing orders for advanced US defence equipment such as 6 C-130J aircraft and 8 P-8I long range maritime patrol aircraft, doubts about the reliability of the US as a defence equipment supplier had abated. They may have also concluded that their policy of supplying arms to Pakistan, including F-16 aircraft, no longer disqualified them from selling advanced aircraft to India, including F-16s. The problem of restrictive conditions that the US imposes on arms sales to third countries, such as end-use monitoring, that India finds intrusive and unpalatable, would have seemed to them to have been basically addressed with our acceptance of such conditions in other deals concluded with them.
In this background, the exclusion of the two US aircraft from the competition after the completion of the technical evaluation process by the Indian Air Force has run counter to all expectations. Given the political lobbying by the US in favour of the US companies, the thoroughgoing field work done by US companies to position themselves favourably to win the contract and the incessant talk about the political transformation of US-India ties and the growing strategic partnership between the two countries, it seemed highly unlikely that the Indian government would have the political option of omitting the US aircraft from even the shortlist of final contenders.

The US rhetoric that it considered its relationship with India as an indispensable one for the 21st century, the breadth of the engagement between the two countries, the in-principle support given by the US for India&#8217;s permanent membership of the UN Security Council, the encouragement to India to play a more active role in the eastern part of Asia with concerns about China&#8217;s rise no doubt in mind, all worked in favour of strengthening perceptions that the ground for this major contract going to the Americans was being laid. The declared willingness of the US to ease export controls applicable to India and the removal of most of the remaining Indian organizations from the US Entity List, especially the DRDO related ones, could also have been interpreted as a move to set at rest India&#8217;s concerns about technology transfers within the ambit of a growing defence relationship with the US.
Any veritable strategic relationship must have defence ties as a component. If India takes its strategic relationship with the US seriously, it has to factor into the equation an arms procurement relationship. A strategic partnership cannot be developed without trust, and if India were to continue to question how much trust it can repose in the US as a defence partner, an important ingredient would be lacking in fostering a really close relationship in the future.
But then, the record of the US in imposing sanctions not only on India, but also a host of other countries, cannot be ignored. Even if today India&#8217;s relationship with the US Administration is better than ever before, there is no guarantee that differences on some sensitive issue in the future will not push the US political process towards sanctions, or a threat to impose them, in order to constrain India&#8217;s freedom of choice. A conflict with Pakistan could be an example, especially as the US is selling arms to both sides, and US arms will be used by both in case of active hostilities. This may well prompt the US Congress to seek to impose an arms embargo on both countries, especially in the context of fears of a nuclear exchange in the sub-continent if any military confrontation is not quickly contained.
Iran is another example of potential differences emerging between India and the US. The US is ultra-sensitive about any form of military cooperation between Iran and India. Iran is under stringent US sanctions over and above the UN approved ones, and this has not only frozen India-Iran discussions on energy projects, India is now finding it difficult to even pay for the large quantities of crude oil it buys from Iran. This is so because of the control the US exercises over all dollar transactions with Iran, an oversight that the EU now applies to euro transactions too, and the reluctance of Indian and other banks to run the risk of disrupting their normal operations by disregarding the US and EU sanctions because of their extra-territorial nature. This disruption is happening even when procurement of crude from Iran is not otherwise subject to sanctions. Such restrictions damage India&#8217;s energy security on which an understanding with the US within the ambit of a &#8220;strategic&#8221; relationship is absent.
IDR SubscriptionIn the context of the MMRCA deal, US arms supplies to Pakistan did not acquire a political profile that the issue merited in principle. Why the incongruity of the US supplying frontline fighters to Pakistan, given the latter&#8217;s unremitting hostility towards India, its diversion of American funds intended for building up its counter-terrorism capabilities to acquisition of India-specific arms, its unwillingness to act firmly against jihadi groups targeting India and procrastination in bringing those responsible for Mumbai to justice, and, at the same time, seeking to sell similar aircraft to India, has not attracted more critical political-level attention in India is surprising. There would have been, on the face of it, something wrong and undesirable in the same American company supplying aircraft to both India and Pakistan, in better equipping militarily two long time adversaries in their mutual confrontation.
The US explains its policy of arming Pakistan as intended to give it a greater sense of confidence in its own security and deflect it from expanding its nuclear force by enhancing its defensive conventional capability. The US rejects occasional official Indian criticism by arguing that India is much more powerful militarily than Pakistan and that its arms transfers are carefully calibrated not to upset the conventional military balance in the sub-continent. It has let it be known that it does not intend to change this policy, and that on this subject the two sides can agree to disagree. We do know that this arms aid is also intended to lubricate the willingness of the Pakistani army to cooperate with the US in combating extremists operating from the country&#8217;s frontier areas against US/NATO forces in Afghanistan.
All in all, whatever the US calculations and compulsions, US arms sales encourage Pakistan to pursue its policy of confrontation against India. From the Indian point of view, if the US can impose an arms embargo against China despite the intensity of their economic and financial ties and the need to manage their conflicting strategic interests in East Asia which carries its own compulsions of keeping China in good humour, why cannot the US revise its policy of arming a country that is unstable, almost failing as a state in US eyes, irresponsible on nuclear matters, and most responsible for the dangerous spread of extremism and terrorism in the region and well beyond?
The Indian political establishment has been reluctant to make an issue of US arms aid to Pakistan for various reasons. Raising it aggressively at a time when India-US relations have been improving remarkably would have clouded the atmosphere by escalating public concerns on a sensitive issue. Governmental efforts to enlarge the areas of engagement and reduce the scope of differences with the US, all with a view to leveraging the US connection as much as possible for India&#8217;s sustained economic growth, would have been impeded. The Indian assessment that its protests will go unheeded by the US Administration, and therefore too much political capital should not be expended on an issue on which India would not get required satisfaction, has been a factor. Then, there are those who have argued that rather than following a negative policy of preventing the US from selling to Pakistan, India should follow a positive approach of stepping up its own purchases from the US with a view to giving a stake to the US defence industry in India, and that this may be a more powerful dissuasive factor in the long run for the US to supply advanced weaponry to Pakistan. US willingness to sell more technologically advanced weaponry to India than it does to Pakistan has also been offered as an argument not to resort to a negative, Pakistan-fixated approach, and revive the hyphenation with Pakistan that we have all along resisted. Finally, raising the pitch on this issue did not fit in with the policy of resuming the dialogue with Pakistan, apart from the consideration that Pakistan would project India&#8217;s lobbying against US arms supplies as evidence of its hegemonic designs of keeping Pakistan weak and threatening its security.

MMRCA BiddersThe immediate US reaction was one of shock that the US aircraft had been given such short shrift by India. It expressed officially its sense of disappointment at the result, underlining the political investment the US had made in promoting the success of its companies. It is not entirely normal for a government to publicly express such distress when its private sector companies are ousted in a commercial tender, as by doing so it only draws more attention to its own active interest in the tender, but also to the setback it received. Those who talk of US &#8220;pressure&#8221; on India can point to such governmental level reaction as proof, even if it could be argued that the decision taken demonstrated that such &#8220;pressure&#8221; was resisted, but it is not a healthy controversy to get involved in for both sides. There cannot be disappointment unless there is expectation. Why the US government expected its aircraft to be considered technically superior in performance to the other competing aircraft is not clear.

The Eurofighter and the Rafale are much newer aircraft than the F-16 and the F-18 in design. The latter represent fully mature technologies, with little room for growth especially over the next 30 years or more when the MMRCA will be in service. The European aircraft, as compared to the older American ones, therefore give the assurance of remaining at the cutting edge of technology for the next few decades, and more in a position to respond to the evolution in India&#8217;s threat environment over that period. Those who have analysed the comparative capabilities of the aircraft dispassionately recognize the superiority of the European platforms in aerodynamics and close combat capability, though the Americans have for the present a superior AESA radar that the Europeans too are in the process of developing, and which is expected to be ready when the chosen aircraft goes into service in India eventually.

India is following a two step process in the MMRCA acquisition, with a purely performance based technical evaluation process to be followed by commercial negotiations and concomitant questions of technology transfer and off-sets. The intention is to follow a transparent process and insulate it as far as possible from political predilections and charges of financial impropriety. If the American critics of the Indian decision argue that India has missed the opportunity to reinforce its strategic partnership with the US, implying, in other words, India has not considered political factors in making the decision, they are in fact arguing against transparency and objectivity in selection, as political considerations can be invoked in favour of the Europeans or the Russians also, and cannot play only in favour of the Americans.
The European aircraft are certainly more expensive than the American aircraft, but the view of some US commentators that the cost of the aircraft should have weighed in the initial shortlisting by India also cuts both ways. If the American planes are cheaper, the Russian and the Swedish planes are cheaper still. The criticism that India has bought a plane and not a relationship is a bit presumptuous, as it implies that India has short changed itself. There is here a suggestion that the acquisitions already made from the US and those in the offing will not build a relationship with the US. The US should actually build a partnership with India, and avoid giving the impression that it looks upon it as a client to whom favours are dispensed by selling defence equipment. Incidentally, after the announcement that the Cabinet Committee on Security had approved the C-17 deal, a US spokesman said that with this acquisition India will have the largest number of these planes in service outside the US. He also said that this purchase will not have any bearing on US policy on arms sales to Pakistan.

After the initial voicing of disappointment with the Indian decision, the American tone changed, with officials stating they had no reproach to make about the Indian selection process, that the India-US defence relationship did not hinge on the result of a single project, that the US will continue to look for opportunities to strengthen defence ties with India and that its companies will pursue their efforts to increase their share of the Indian defence market. This modulated approach was wise, as the US can look forward to a meaningful share of the US $ 35 billion worth of defence acquisitions India plans to make in the next five years. Already the government has cleared the purchase of 10 C-17 heavy lift aircraft worth $ 4.1 billion, a timely decision to offset the negative impact of the MMRCA decision on the US mind. US suppliers are also expected to bag the contracts for the supply of attack helicopters, light howitzers and anti-tank guided missiles. All this shows that despite the jagged edges in the India-US defence relationship, the trend lines in these ties are positive.
IDR SubscriptionIt is clear India&#8217;s MMRCA will be a European aircraft, which is a judicious decision in view of Europe&#8217;s established role in meeting our defence needs and its importance as a strategic partner. But this is not at the cost of an expanding defence relationship with the US in the years ahead.


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## sudhir007

BBC News - BAE Systems in Fife secures £20m Eurofighter Typhoon deal

Electronics workers in Fife have landed a £20m order to help build one of the world's most advanced radar systems.

BAE Systems at Hillend near Dunfermline will embark on building the next generation of the Typhoon combat aircraft.

That will mean about 200 jobs will be secured for the next two years.

The contract to develop electronic components for the radar system on the Eurofighter Typhoon was won from Edinburgh-based Selex Galileo.

In addition to mapping surrounding terrain, the radar is integrated with sensors around the aircraft.

The Hillend plant also contributes to radar for torpedoes, the Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers and the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers currently under construction.

Andy Brown, from Selex Galileo, said: "The end result that was achieved for these contract awards has followed a number of months of sterling effort by both companies.

"We have jointly addressed the challenges from our customer chain, and also reflected the need to 'up the ante' in a tough economic climate.

"Teamwork between our two companies made a real difference, and gives us both a strong platform for success in these important programmes."


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## luckyyy

*Instead of mmrca deal India should buy more Sukhoi-MKI : defence experts​*
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> *Instead of mmrca deal India should buy more Sukhoi-MKI : defence experts​*
> DAILY EXCELSIOR




You left out the important parts:


> Many defence experts have opined that instead of such deals India should buy more Sukhoi-MKI, *and wait for sometime for the fifth generation stealth fighters for which it has entered into agreement with Russia. The stealth fighters are likely to be operational by 2017-18, at the same time the entire fleet of multi-role combat fighters will be delivered to IAF.*



So they want MKIs only as a bridge until FGFA might be ready, because they will be available most likely by the end of the decade.
However, that suggestion ignors the fact that MMRCA is about more than just a fighter replacement and that we wouldn't get any useful ToT, or co-developments to improve our defence industry, not to mention that it would make IAF way more dependent on Russia and would increase the operational costs with so many heavy class fiighters.


More interesting in regard to the topic are these parts of the article:



> *What are India's foreseeable security threats and how must the IAF respond?* While Pakistan remains a lingering hangover, especially in its embrace of cross-border terrorism, it is diminishing as a full-blown military threat to India. *The IAF's most likely missions against Pakistan centre on air-to-ground strikes: punitive raids against terrorist camps or ISI locations, perhaps in retaliation for yet another terrorist outrage; or pre-emptive strikes against Pakistani ballistic missiles when a nuclear launch against India seems imminent.*
> A devastating ground strike capability is also primary for contingencies on the China border. With Beijing relentlessly developing roads and railways to the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has already built, and is increasing the ability to amass an invading force faster than the Indian Army can rush in troops to defend the threatened area.
> With an attack imminent, or some Indian territory already captured, *New Delhi's immediate response will inevitably centre on air strikes against PLA forward troops and the routes on which their logistics - ammunition, fuel*, food, water and medical care - depend. In the 1962 debacle, one of New Delhi's most unforgivable, and inexplicable, blunders was to abjure the use of air power. *This time around, as evident from the rapid creation of IAF infrastructure along the China border, India's first response will be with air strikes.
> Given these requirements, it is evident that the IAF needs powerful ground strike capabilities.*




One can argue about some of the targets they point out, because I think long range missile sites will be high priority targets as well, but in general that is a main point for sure, which obviously puts Rafale in advantage!


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## SpArK

*Is Typhoon the end of history for UK aerospace?
*


No question about it &#8212; the Brits have given the world some classic combat aircraft: The Spitfire. The Harrier. The Fairey Gannet. The Buccaneer. Their joint ventures with European partners have also been successful, including the Jaguar, the Tornado and most recently, the Eurofighter Typhoon. *But the outgoing boss of UK aerospace supplier GKN warns that with the realities of the defense world today, the Typhoon could be Britain&#8217;s last fighter &#8212; and it&#8217;s only a portion British to begin with.
*

GKN CEO Kevin Smith tells Defence Management that* for all the Typhoon&#8217;s success and its futre prospects as an export fighter in India and elsewhere, the UK and Europe have nothing in the hopper. The Typhoon is the payoff of decisions made years ago, Smith argues, and unless Euro-leaders get something going now, it could be the end of the British defense aerospace industry, at least, if not all of Europe&#8217;s.*

Here&#8217;s how Smith put it to Defence Management&#8217;s Anthony Hall:


When asked how easy it would be in his opinion to raise technology in the UK back up to the highest level, Smith is less than optimistic: &#8220;*I think we have lost a lot. When I worked in the Military Aircraft Division at British Aerospace in the 1990s, we were producing the two variants of the Tornado &#8211; the IDS and the ADB &#8211; in collaboration. We had Sea Harrier incorporated in production and we had the AV8 in collaboration with the US Marine Corps, which then went back into the Royal Air Force for the GR7 and the Harrier TMK10. We had the 60, 100 and 200 series Hawk and the T45 Hawk collaboration for the US Navy, and we were doing the early phases of development of Eurofighter. Then in the latter part of the 1990s, we moved into the Nimrod programme. A lot of the capability to do that has gone, and continues to disappear. We don&#8217;t make a whole aircraft anymore and have probably lost that capability as a nation*.&#8221;

While stressing that collaboration is important, and that sustaining the capability to develop advanced systems and weapons systems across Europe is key, he concedes that nationally, once the UK loses its own capability, it cannot be rebuilt: &#8220;It goes, and I think that is demonstrated by how the aerospace industry, although it still has a strong position globally, is substantially based on decisions that were made a long time ago.&#8221;

Once again, the Eurofighter/Typhoon provides a pertinent example. Launched in the late 80s and early 90s, it is viewed today by most of those outside the UK aerospace industry as its defining aircraft. However, this owes little to current practices, Smith explains: &#8220;The industry we have today is not a product of what&#8217;s happened over the last two or five years. It&#8217;s a product of what happened 10 years ago. The decisions we take or don&#8217;t take now affect the ability to sustain the industry in the next 10&#8211;15 years. The Typhoon could be the last hurrah.&#8221;

This is why a new European aircraft programme is so important, he says. &#8220;In the US, you have the JSF Programme, which is just starting to come into production, and behind that, they have programmes that they&#8217;re demonstrating technology on today, which are going to be the production programmes in 10 or 15 years&#8217; time.&#8221; The concern, he says, is that the UK isn&#8217;t developing a demonstration phase.

*Britain isn&#8217;t even sure it&#8217;ll be able to afford all the F-35C Lightning IIs it wants for its new aircraft carriers, to say nothing of building its own new next-generation fighter. What&#8217;s more, although you can say what you want about the problems with the F-35 program, it will provide Britain with its first stealthy, most advanced fighter &#8212; such a leap past the Typhoon that it would be a major challenge for the UK or a Euro-consortium to trump it anytime soon.

What Britain and Europe must count on is their ability to continue exporting Typhoons as long as possible, and hope their economies improve enough to start thinking about the next big thing.
*




Read more: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/08/22/is-typhoon-the-end-of-history-for-uk-aerospace/#ixzz1Vog5CtIl 
DoDBuzz.com

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Shanthi

Rafale should win...


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## SpArK




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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## SpArK

*German Air Forces Eurofighter flight simulators
*


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## Gandhi G in da house

SpArK said:


> *Is Typhoon the end of history for UK aerospace?
> *
> 
> 
> No question about it &#8212; the Brits have given the world some classic combat aircraft: The Spitfire. The Harrier. The Fairey Gannet. The Buccaneer. Their joint ventures with European partners have also been successful, including the Jaguar, the Tornado and most recently, the Eurofighter Typhoon. *But the outgoing boss of UK aerospace supplier GKN warns that with the realities of the defense world today, the Typhoon could be Britain&#8217;s last fighter &#8212; and it&#8217;s only a portion British to begin with.
> *
> 
> GKN CEO Kevin Smith tells Defence Management that* for all the Typhoon&#8217;s success and its futre prospects as an export fighter in India and elsewhere, the UK and Europe have nothing in the hopper. The Typhoon is the payoff of decisions made years ago, Smith argues, and unless Euro-leaders get something going now, it could be the end of the British defense aerospace industry, at least, if not all of Europe&#8217;s.*
> 
> Here&#8217;s how Smith put it to Defence Management&#8217;s Anthony Hall:
> 
> 
> When asked how easy it would be in his opinion to raise technology in the UK back up to the highest level, Smith is less than optimistic: &#8220;*I think we have lost a lot. When I worked in the Military Aircraft Division at British Aerospace in the 1990s, we were producing the two variants of the Tornado &#8211; the IDS and the ADB &#8211; in collaboration. We had Sea Harrier incorporated in production and we had the AV8 in collaboration with the US Marine Corps, which then went back into the Royal Air Force for the GR7 and the Harrier TMK10. We had the 60, 100 and 200 series Hawk and the T45 Hawk collaboration for the US Navy, and we were doing the early phases of development of Eurofighter. Then in the latter part of the 1990s, we moved into the Nimrod programme. A lot of the capability to do that has gone, and continues to disappear. We don&#8217;t make a whole aircraft anymore and have probably lost that capability as a nation*.&#8221;
> 
> While stressing that collaboration is important, and that sustaining the capability to develop advanced systems and weapons systems across Europe is key, he concedes that nationally, once the UK loses its own capability, it cannot be rebuilt: &#8220;It goes, and I think that is demonstrated by how the aerospace industry, although it still has a strong position globally, is substantially based on decisions that were made a long time ago.&#8221;
> 
> Once again, the Eurofighter/Typhoon provides a pertinent example. Launched in the late 80s and early 90s, it is viewed today by most of those outside the UK aerospace industry as its defining aircraft. However, this owes little to current practices, Smith explains: &#8220;The industry we have today is not a product of what&#8217;s happened over the last two or five years. It&#8217;s a product of what happened 10 years ago. The decisions we take or don&#8217;t take now affect the ability to sustain the industry in the next 10&#8211;15 years. The Typhoon could be the last hurrah.&#8221;
> 
> This is why a new European aircraft programme is so important, he says. &#8220;In the US, you have the JSF Programme, which is just starting to come into production, and behind that, they have programmes that they&#8217;re demonstrating technology on today, which are going to be the production programmes in 10 or 15 years&#8217; time.&#8221; The concern, he says, is that the UK isn&#8217;t developing a demonstration phase.
> 
> *Britain isn&#8217;t even sure it&#8217;ll be able to afford all the F-35C Lightning IIs it wants for its new aircraft carriers, to say nothing of building its own new next-generation fighter. What&#8217;s more, although you can say what you want about the problems with the F-35 program, it will provide Britain with its first stealthy, most advanced fighter &#8212; such a leap past the Typhoon that it would be a major challenge for the UK or a Euro-consortium to trump it anytime soon.
> 
> What Britain and Europe must count on is their ability to continue exporting Typhoons as long as possible, and hope their economies improve enough to start thinking about the next big thing.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/08/22/is-typhoon-the-end-of-history-for-uk-aerospace/#ixzz1Vog5CtIl
> DoDBuzz.com



Well since the article talks about decline of defence industry in the Europe it should be applicable to France as well ?


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## sancho

nick_indian said:


> Well since the article talks about decline of defence industry in the Europe it should be applicable to France as well ?



It's actually talking about British own developments, but today own development are simply too costly and that's why we see joint developments like F35, NH90, A400, MRTA, FGFA, or even the KFX stealth fight of S. Korea, where Indonesia and Turkey might join.
The European countries are in big financial trouble at the moment, once because the economic crisis and some of the also because of the EURO crisis. Both however will lead to even more co-developments, that's why BAE and Dassault for example now joint for a new UAV, why we might see RAF pilots flying Rafales soon, or British SSNs and SSBNs in French carrier groups. 
India should also get rid of the idea that we have to develop anything on our own, but start forming joint developments, especially with some of the BRICS nations, like Brazil, S. Africa, or Asian countries like S. Korea, Japan, Singapore or Indonesia.

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## Abingdonboy

nick_indian said:


> Well since the article talks about decline of defence industry in the Europe it should be applicable to France as well ?



Well not really the a french have tried to distance themselves in this industry from the European consortium hence the Rafele. And unlike UK France is still a major player in the defence Market and the Rafele is prrof of their strength- not many countries can make their own fighters from the ground up.


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## rockstarIN

We heard that we will decide the winner in August 2011. Today is 1st Sept. 2011, where the hell we stand now?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> We heard that we will decide the winner in August 2011. Today is 1st Sept. 2011, where the hell we stand now?



That's not correct, the comercial bids will be compared at the moment, a final decision is expected only by the end of this year:

Livefist: 'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief


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## sudhir007

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

Dassault close to UAE deal on Rafale jets | idrw.org

Dassault Aviation is expected to put an offer to sell about 60 Rafale fighterjets to the United Arab Emirates this month, in a sign that negotiations are progressing, Les Echos newspaper reported on Thursday.

Last month another French newspaper said an agreement could be reached between September and the end of the year.

No one at Dassault was immediately available to comment

The UAE has been in talks with Dassault since 2008 over the purchase of 60 Rafale jets, estimated at 10 billion dollars, to replace the fleet of Mirage 2000s they bought in 1983.

French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said in July the United Arab Emirates was France&#8217;s best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for the Rafale.

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## Gandhi G in da house

sudhir007 said:


> ---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------
> 
> Dassault close to UAE deal on Rafale jets | idrw.org
> 
> Dassault Aviation is expected to put an offer to sell about 60 Rafale fighterjets to the United Arab Emirates this month, in a sign that negotiations are progressing, Les Echos newspaper reported on Thursday.
> 
> Last month another French newspaper said an agreement could be reached between September and the end of the year.
> 
> No one at Dassault was immediately available to comment
> 
> The UAE has been in talks with Dassault since 2008 over the purchase of 60 Rafale jets, estimated at 10 billion dollars, to replace the fleet of Mirage 2000s they bought in 1983.
> 
> French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said in July the United Arab Emirates was France&#8217;s best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for the Rafale.



So rafale gets its first international sale then ?


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## mohammed007

the only difference is india has to buy everything wonder if they will buy european soldiers 2... thank God Pakistan can build its own MMRCA


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## proud_indian

mohammed007 said:


> the only difference is india has to buy everything wonder if they will buy european soldiers 2... thank God *Pakistan can build its own MMRCA*



This is what they teach u in madarsas?

better you should have took admission in a school, I must say!


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## sancho

nick_indian said:


> So rafale gets its first international sale then ?



Most probably, but it's not fixed yet. Swiss also speeds up their competition, because the of favourable exchange rate at the moment, it is likely that they and Brazil gets to a final decision by the end of this, or early next year too, with good chances for Rafale.
India would definitelly not be the only export customer of Rafale that is sure!




proud_indian said:


> This is what they teach u in madarsas?
> 
> better you should have took admission in a school, I must say!




Don't feed the troll!


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## HZR2011

september came...when will the decision come out?


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## sancho

HZR2011 said:


> september came...when will the decision come out?



Check post #2051


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## HZR2011

sancho said:


> That's not correct, the comercial bids will be compared at the moment, a final decision is expected only by the end of this year:
> 
> Livefist: 'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief


how come can this guy make armed forces religious ,is he a jihadist? He should take care while giving statements

he is kinda unprofessional @$$hole


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## sancho

Rafales capabilities getting better and better:



> *Libya, AASM-IR is combat proven*
> 
> 
> Since august 18th and a picture released by the French Air Force, There were strong rumors about the first strikes using the AASM-IR in Libya. Indeed, the 2 AASM visible on the picture (see on the left) had the typical transparent window of the AASM-IR head.
> 
> It now has been confirmed by Air&Cosmos in its yesterday issue that the IR version of the AASM bomb has actually been fired in Libya for the first time, a few weeks only after it entered operational service on the Rafale.
> 
> *The AASM-IR (SBU-54) is capable of 1m accuracy compared to the 10m of the GPS/INS version (SBU-38).
> A new anti-tank mode (new targeting algorithms to recognize vehicles) is also under development for this smart bomb*.



Rafale News: Libya, AASM-IR is combat proven


They might focus on the AASM 125 with this IR seeker for the anti tank role, possibly next to the Brimstone missile, although I wonder if they add both, or only one of them, especially since the wars in Afghanistan and Libya are more or less over now.


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## SpArK




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## ptltejas

tallboy123 said:


> So guys which one will win???
> how many of u shifted ur party??? and to which one???


 
Me shifted partially 100% Rafale to 50% for both rafale typhoon. eurofighter with aesa could be better.


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## Archie

Rafale will win and Deal will cost us 14 Billion USD , instead of 10.4 Billion as previously planned , this is mainly due to price Inflation in last 5 yrs

Also Typhoon cost atleast 20 Mil each more than Rafale 
And it is not as good a ground attack fighter as Rafale


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## Paan Singh

when this will be over??no big news from month


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## IND151

i support Rafale


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## Lord Of Gondor

Archie said:


> Rafale will win and Deal will cost us 14 Billion USD , instead of 10.4 Billion as previously planned , this is mainly due to price Inflation in last 5 yrs
> 
> Also Typhoon cost atleast 20 Mil each more than Rafale
> And it is not as good a ground attack fighter as Rafale


True and given the fact that we have operational experience of over 20 years on Mirage alone(40+ years,dealing with Dassault) and the fact that HAL will upgrade these might reduce the Rafale costs a bit more.
EADS,on the other hand have just BAe as a partner who has considerable amount of experience dealing with HAL(Jag/Hawk 132),which might lead to compromises on delivery dates(As HAL still has a lot of backlogs on BAe Hawk deliveries).


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## Storm Force

French have offered RAFAEL striaght away ie withins 12 months of signing contract . THEY are desperate to win this competition.

EADS wants 36 months to deliver first 18 AND WILL COST MORE . this point will cost them the deal 

rafael to win by december this year


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## Archie

Storm Force said:


> French have offered RAFAEL striaght away ie withins 12 months of signing contract . THEY are desperate to win this competition.
> 
> EADS wants 36 months to deliver first 18 AND WILL COST MORE . this point will cost them the deal
> 
> rafael to win by december this year



Yeah Dassault has Promised early delivery of Rafale , thats coz Dassault currently produces aircrafts in reduced quantity ie they produce 11 Rafale a yr but have Production capability to supply 30 a yr


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> French have offered RAFAEL striaght away ie withins 12 months of signing contract . THEY are desperate to win this competition.



That's not correct, they offered fast delivery of around 40 fighters, besides the MMRCA deal itself and as a solution for IAF shrinking squad numbers, but IAF didn't took that offer, possibly because it would have influenced MMRCA competition too much. When the first Rafales (if it wins) would be delivered is not said yet. It's also not only the production rate of Dassault that offers the advantage here, but the fact that the Rafale version offered in MMRCA will be available from 2012 onwards, while the EF with AESA radar will be available only by 2015 onwards.

And Rafale has no need to be desperate at the moment, because the production for French forces is cleared for 2018 and is likely to go on beyond 2025. Not to mention that the UAE deal is close to be done, that they are leading in Swiss, have at least 50% chance in Brazil and looks good in Kuwait, or Qatar as well.
The EF consortium on the other side is desperate to win, because their initial partners are looking more to get rid of their orders, than to place a follow T3B order, just like export sales of new fighters is not looking good (MMRCA is the best chance) and without a new sale, the production will end in 2015!


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## blain2

HZR2011 said:


> how come can this guy make armed forces religious ,is he a jihadist? He should take care while giving statements
> 
> he is kinda unprofessional @$$hole



I say inshallah all the time. What does that make me? Get your bearings straight and understand what the word means. 
What if he says "by God" or "thank God"? Where does that leave him in your book?

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## Archie

blain2 said:


> I say inshallah all the time. What does that make me? Get your bearings straight and understand what the word means.
> What if he says "by God" or "thank God"? Where does that leave him in your book?



I always thought that Inshahallah meant "By God's Grace"


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## DarK-LorD

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end.

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end, Indian Air Force on Thursday said the commercial bids of two short-listed vendors in the MMRCA tender would be opened by middle of next month.

We have a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council on October 7 where some of the issues are going to be discussed. Once those issued are cleared, hopefully by the middle of month, we should be in a position to open the bids, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said in New Delhi.

He was asked to comment on the acquisition schedule of these aircraft which are expected to be inducted in the IAF by 2014.

Air Chief Marshal Browne was talking to reporters on the sidelines of the Sixth International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Industry organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII).

Earlier, addressing the conference, the IAF Chief said, We are in final stages of this process (of signing the contract for MMRCA) and (it will be done) hopefully by the end of the year.

On the offset value of the deal, he said, Offsets for this programme amount to Rs. 20,000 crore plus and these are going to be in service for over a period of 13 years.

To a query on comparison between Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and MMRCA, he said, These are two different kinds of aeroplanes. MMRCA does not have stealth features and super cruise capability while FGFA has all that.

FGFA has recess armament base where all the missiles and weapons are located inside the aircraft, which gives it a certain amount of stealth potential, he said.

India is developing the FGFA as a joint venture with Russia.

The Hindu : News / National : IAF hopes to finalise combat aircraft deal by year-end

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## sancho

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> To a query on comparison between Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and MMRCA, he said, These are two different kinds of aeroplanes. *MMRCA does not have* stealth features and *super cruise capability* while FGFA has all that.


 
 Mh, either Rafale and EF didn't proved SC in India, or he is mistaken about that, because both proved this capability in Europe for sure.


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## AkhandIndia

so who is going to put more on table??Those who are desperate for money will get this..i will bet on EFT


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## sancho

AkhandIndia said:


> so who is going to put more on table??*Those who are desperate for money will get this..i will bet on EFT*


 
Agree on that, the question is, is that worth the very high costs and what does the French offer on the other side? For our forces, the Rafale is clearly the first choice, especially since the 2014 time line seems still to be important and the EF with AESA will only be ready around 2015.


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## angeldemon_007

Defence ministry panel to consider combat jet deal next month News


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## Bhairava

Rafale is winning the deal - _birdie from the power blocks in Delhi_


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## luckyyy

Gounder said:


> Rafale is winning the deal - _birdie from the power blocks in Delhi_


 
let the bids open and you will see the mmrca going into cold storage..


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## sudhir007

Germany sharing 'substantial' info with India on black money - Hindustan Times

Germany is sharing "substantial" information with India on black money stashed overseas and will continue to do so, the country's Ambassador said on Friday. "Yes. We are doing that. Very substantial kind of information (we are sharing it with India). We are already doing it," German
Ambassador to India Thomas Matussek told reporters here in response to a volley of questions on the black money issue.

However, he refused to elaborate on the sharing of information saying it was "too technical issue" for him comment.

Matussek said both countries are satisfied with the progress being made in this regard.

"I can say that soon we hope to come to a satisfactory conclusion (on the issue)," he said on the sidelines of an event.

*To repeated questions whether Germany is sharing with India the names of those Indians who have accounts abroad, he said: "I don't have it. I don't have the names of the account holders and I don't have the account numbers."
*
*On the Indian Air Force's MMRCA deal, for which Eurofighter Typhoon, built by four nations including Germany has been short-listed, he described India as an "anchor of stability" in the region and said that was why Germany was giving it the best technology it possesses.

Asked whether the ties between India and Germany would be affected if the Eurofighter does not get shortlisted, he said, "We don't take this hypothesis. We will work very very hard to show that our product is a very good product. So we are not talking about Plan B. We are concentrating on Plan A."*


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## Yeti

BAE may cut 3,000 jobs as Typhoon orders slow-media | Reuters


BAE are going to be desperate as will the French let the saga continue for another 12 months and they will be giving us all sorts of tech transfer for the contract


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## SpArK

BAE may cut 3,000 jobs as Typhoon jet output | Reuters


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## SpArK

*Delay likely in aircraft bidding process*

September 28, DHNS:

*The commercial bids for the estimated $10.4-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), scheduled for opening by month-end, is likely to be delayed till November or early December as the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is bogged down by some clearances it is required to obtain.*

Sources in the MoD said the commercial offers made by the shortlisted contenders will expire by December, which might see the Centre opening the bids at least by then to avoid further delay in the process as it aims to induct the first set of aircraft by early 2014. 

The MoD has shortlisted EADS Eurofighter and Dassaults Rafale. Once the bids are opened,* the lower among the two bidders will be engaged in commercial negotiations.*

Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) Commandant Air Commodore B&#8200;R Krishna said: The two were shortlisted as they comlied with the 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs).

Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne recently said the commercial bids could be opened in mid-October.

But the sources indicate that the process might take longer as the matter is before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) again because some issues need to be sorted out before that.

Air Chief Marshal (retd) F&#8200;H&#8200;Major said: There might be some more clearances that they have to get, otherwise there was no need for the matter to go back to the DAC. It was set up for the overall guidance of the defence procurement planning process.

*Among the issues to be discussed at the DAC&#8200;meeting scheduled for October 7, the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, price optimisation and offset proposals made will assume prominence.

With the falling rupee, if the deal is executed this year, there could be a considerable cost escalation even at current prices.*

Delay likely in aircraft bidding process


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## luckyyy

i think MoD has madeup it's mind to scarp the mmrca deal and just focus on FGFA , Super-30mki and LCA...


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## sudhir007

*Rafale with Brahmos*


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## karan.1970

I dont know why, but somehow the hope for F18 simply refuses to die in me..


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## jha

karan.1970 said:


> I dont know why, but somehow the hope for F18 simply refuses to die in me..



I am in support of anything but RAFALE...


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## AC&I

blain2 said:


> I say inshallah all the time. What does that make me? Get your bearings straight and understand what the word means.
> What if he says "by God" or "thank God"? Where does that leave him in your book?



INSHALLAH = If ALLAH wills then.... or by the will of ALLAH ...... {The IAF chief spoke correctly}
MASHALLAH = Whatever ( or that) ALLAH wills
ALHAMDULILLAH = All Praise belong to ALLAH
SUBHANALLAH = All Glory belong to ALLAH
WALLAHI or ALLAH ki Kasam = By ALLAH (By God)
Shukr ALLAH = Thank ALLAH (Thank God)

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## sudhir007

India to announce jet fighter within weeks - UPI.com

Dassault and Eurofighter will go head-to-head this month to win a $10.4 billion contract to supply India with a medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The winner is expected to be announced in November, The Times of India reported

Defense Minister A. K. Antony, who is chairman of the Defense Acquisitions Council, made the announcement. He said the council approved the offsets evaluation reports of the Eurofighter Typhoon -- backed by EADS that includes British, Germany, Spanish and Italian companies-- and the French group Dassault's Rafale jet.

The announcement signals the final stage of the controversial competition that has seen India reject bids from four other major fighter manufacturers.

India is in "the last lap" for making a decision, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne said.

"In the middle of November, we shall be able to announce to the whole world which plane we have selected," he said.

India is hoping to have the plane operational by 2015.

India also evaluated proposals for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet from Boeing, Lockheed Martin's F-16, the Russian-made MiG-35 and the Gripen from Swedish firm Saab.

DAC began evaluating all the proposals in April, looking at each bidder's value-for-money tender, although trials of the aircraft began last year.

The U.S., Russian and Swedish bids eventually were rejected after technical evaluation and field trials, The Times of India report said.

Indian media reported in April that one unnamed bidder had made a final pitch to upgrade its offer but the DCA rejected any last-minute changes to bids.

"No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials," an unnamed air force source said at the time.

Many of India's nearly 800 fighters are aging Soviet-era and Russian aircraft, including the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29 and some Sukhoi Su-30MKI planes. The air force also has Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar and French Mirage 2000 aircraft produced under license.

The MRCA deal is imperative for the air force because of the age of its largest aircraft by numbers, the MIG-21, a 1970s fighter.

The long-awaited aircraft deal -- the tender was issued in August 2007 -- will be one of India's largest capital military expenditures likely in the next several years.

The purchase is reflected in the country's boosted defense budget, announced earlier this year -- an increase of more than 11 percent in the face of China's growing military might.

The jump to $36.5 billion for 2011-12, from $32.74 billion, includes a 12 percent boost in capital spending for equipment and services.

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## RPK

*Typhoon export deal will secure BAE jobs - LEP Business - lep.co.uk*


Jobs at a pair of Lancashire jet-building factories will be secured if a £6billion order to sell aircraft to Japan is won.

Andy Latham, senior business development executive at BAE Systems, said parts for the 40 jets due to be ordered would be built at the firm&#8217;s factories at Warton and Samlesbury, near Preston, if it succeeded in landed an order to sell its Eurofighter Typhoon jets.

The consortium submitted its bid in September against competition from the US-built F-35 and F-18 aircraft and expects to get an answer from Japan&#8217;s defence chiefs by the end of the year.

It would be a lift for workers at BAE&#8217;s factories at Warton and Samlesbury, near Preston, which have been rocked by plans to cut 1,300 jobs on the back of defence spending cuts.

Mr Latham said: &#8220;Japan has a very capable defence industry which has built fighters for the past 40 years, but there would be significant work in the UK and Europe.

&#8220;The major units would be supplied from Europe with final assembly completed in Japan.

&#8220;It is good quality work producing major units and providing technical expertise on a number of areas.&#8221;

*The bid from the four-nation Typhoon consortium, which includes defence firms in Germany, Italy and Spain, has offered the Japan &#8220;sovereign control&#8221; over manufacturing, support and upgrade on the jets.*

Mr Latham said the value of the bid &#8220;compared favourably&#8221; with the rival US bids but admitted it would be a coup for the European bid to land the work with Japan having bought American aircraft in recent years.

He said the Japanese would be &#8220;very well-informed&#8221; on the planned slow-down of production for Typhoon among its European partners which has led to the latest round of job cuts, but insisted it would not impact the export bid.

The BAE chief said: &#8220;They understand the UK&#8217;s position in terms of recent events but I do not believe it has a negative impact. I think our partnership with Government is strong and a positive impact.

&#8220;Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, was in Tokyo last week and was actively supporting our export capabilities.&#8221;

Eurofighter is also in the running for a £6bn order to sell 126 jets to the Indian air force.


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## sudhir007

MACHINIST - MoD Begins Calculations to evaluate Life Cycle Cost of aircrafts for MMRCA

The Indian Defence Ministry has initiated the process of calculation of the Life Cycle Cost (LCC) of the two shortlisted aircrafts - the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale - in order to determine the lowest bidder and the ultimate winner of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

On November 4th, commercial bids from the two firms were opened in the presence of their representatives, by the Contracts Negotiation Committee of the Defence Ministry. Though both firms were notified about the cost per unit of each aircraft, confidentiality clauses prevent the figures from being revealed.

According to sources, the per unit cost of the Dassault Rafale is understood to be around 5 percent lower than the Eurofighter. However the final decision will be made on the basis of Life Cycle Cost of these aircrafts, which would be operated for around 40 years or 6,000 hours. The offset and technology transfer proposals made by the firms may also influence the decision.

The ultimate winner is expected to be revealed in six to eight weeks, after which final commercial negotiations will commence with the lowest bidder.

The Government had earmarked Rs 42,000 crore for the deal in 2007. According to officials, the funds can be increased significantly if required.

The offset clause in the tender requires the winner to reinvest 50 percent of the deal amount in the Indian defence industry. The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) had approved the offset proposals of the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale on October 7.


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## ptltejas

I think Eurafale (hybrid eurofighter and rafale) could be good one.


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## sudhir007

Chindits: Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!!

Following are the five weapons which will be integrated onboard Typhoon, if it wins, two of which are already on it :

1. Paveway IV --- Recently tested successfully, is more advanced than II and III.

2. Sidewinder AIM 9X Block-II---Analog, air-to-air, the Block-II is the most advanced in the sidewinder family.

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Iraq.

4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!

5. JSOW--Joint Stand-Off Weapon--the heaviest of them all, to go on the pylon!

No rough figure or estimate available. These can be changed/modified as per the customer needs.

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## sudhir007

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids | idrw.org

The cost of acquiring the winning aircraft for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is no longer a secret except to the public, for now.With final bids in for the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the offers of both European companies were opened Nov. 4 and their contents revealed for the first time to the two European rivals, as well as the Indian government&#8217;s MMRCA program team, and three defense ministry officers who will spend the next 6-8 weeks boiling the two offers down to a common, comparable form.

Bid details are not yet public. But after the 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters, a ministry officer in the acquisitions office indicated that certain parameters, including the flyaway cost per aircraft, were not as disparate as might have been expected.

Officials from the two firms would not comment on the bids, though EADS Cassidian released a statement minutes after the meeting, saying: &#8220;Our offer for India&#8217;s MMRCA tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defense industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India.&#8221;

Privately, officials at both companies said they were confident with where their bids were placed. That is not surprising, especially since the biggest factor is still an unknown: how the ministry will arrive at the ownership/life-cycle cost of both aircraft over a 40-year/6,000-hr. run &#8212; an exercise it has never attempted before. Mystery also shrouds the benchmark price, a figure that the ministry and IAF jointly formulated this year, and one to which the bid prices of the Rafale and Eurofighter will be compared with, to focus on the more competitive proposal.

&#8220;Both companies now know the unit cost of each other&#8217;s aircraft,&#8221; the ministry officer said. &#8220;That was closely held information so far. But the real calculations, which will include [the] cost of flying these aircraft over their lifetime, plus inputs from technology transfer and offsets, will provide a final picture. We have a formula and process. It will now be applied to both bids.&#8221;

Industry observers suggest that the government is now well-placed to make a decision, though others indicate that the only real political decision made in the competition so far was the elimination of the two U.S. contenders, Lockheed Martin and Boeing, in April.

&#8220;If the two final offers from Dassault and Eurofighter are roughly comparable, the government will perhaps want to leverage more strategic benefits from the potential winner,&#8221; says an adviser to the Confederation of Indian Industry, which counts among its members several firms that will be offsets partners to either Dassault or EADS Cassidian. &#8220;You couldn&#8217;t ask for two aircraft that are more comparable, or bigger rivals in the aerospace market today. It&#8217;s an opportunity for India to truly gain something here, over and above the 126 airplanes.&#8221;

The lowest bidder, and therefore the one poised to win the $10.4 billion deal, is expected to be formally announced before the new year. Price negotiations will follow with the lowest bidder, leading to contract signature by March 2012, and bringing to an end a 10-year effort by the IAF to buy a stopgap fleet to stem fighter squadron depletion.

The government has not formally announced lowest bidders in arms competitions, but it had apparently decided unofficially last year to begin the practice as an exercise in transparency. In September 2010, the government revealed that General Electric had been identified as the lowest bidder in a competition against Eurojet to power the indigenous Tejas Mk. 2.

As for the MMRCA&#8217;s final contract value, it is likely to be well more than the originally budgeted $10.4 billion. It could reach roughly double that figure, taking into account factors such as inflation, currency fluctuation adjustments and the possibility of a larger buy.


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## SpArK

UAE Also Eyeing Typhoon in Combat Aircraft Competition - Defense News


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## Andross

UAE want EF seems like nobody wants the underpowered, poor A2A inferior Rafale


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## SpArK

*'Combat aircraft contest not over'
*



Ajai Shukla  / Linkoping/ Sweden December 05, 2011, 0:13 IST



There are celebrations at Linkoping, the home of the Gripen NG fighter, which is barely two hours from Stockholm in one of Swedens ultra-friendly inter-city trains. On Tuesday, the Swiss government announced its selection of the Gripen fighter for the Swiss Air Force, turning away the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.

If confirmed, a win in Switzerland (according to the Swiss constitution, this might even require a national referendum) will provide a much-needed boost to Saab's status as a fighter manufacturer, after its Gripen was eliminated in another high-profile contest in India, said respected aviation magazine, Flight Global.


Indias has decided differently, short-listing the Typhoon and Rafale over the Gripen NG in New Delhis ongoing selection of 126 medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). But, visiting Linkoping, Business Standard sees little despondency. With Indias defence ministry (MoD) uncomfortable with how it might have to double its $10.5 billion allocation for those heavy fighters, Gripen is not ruling itself out of the MMRCA competition.


*Its not over till its over, says Eddy de la Motte, Head of Gripen Export. We have been and are still confident that Gripen is the perfect match for the IAF as well as for the Indian defence and aviation industry.*

Eddy de la Motte also points out that Gripen has provided details of its Sea Gripen fighter (which is still being developed) in response to an Indian Navys enquiry.

Executives in Linkoping all insist that the Gripen NG  *the New Generation version of the current Gripen-D fighter would provide India with the fighter it needs for a far cheaper procurement and operating cost. They say it would be one-third the cost of the Typhoon and the Rafale, calculated on a through-life basis.*

*We tour the Linkoping facility,* which was set up in 1930, when Sweden was unable to buy fighters because of the embargoes that preceded World War II. Over the next eight decades, a fierce focus on aerospace R&D  20 per cent of revenues to back into research  has driven the development of world-beating aircraft at Linkoping. These include the Saab-21A in 1945 (the worlds first aircraft with an ejection seat); the Saab 29 Tunnan (the first aircraft with swept wings); and the Viggen, which the Indian Air Force had selected in the 1970s as a ground strike aircraft. But an angry Washington, seething from Indias nuclear experiment in Pokhran, vetoed the supply of its American-origin engines to India. The IAF bought the Jaguar instead.

Today, Linkoping is dedicated to the Gripen. Over 200 Gripens currently fly with five air forces  Sweden, South Africa, Thailand, Czech Republic and Hungary  and Switzerland will be the sixth. Gripen is also a leading contender (along with the Rafale) in the Brazilian Air Forces purchase of medium fighters.

*But India demanded a more capable aircraft than the current Gripen-D; and Saab offered its futuristic Gripen NG fighter, of which only a single prototype exists.
*


Housed in a secluded hangar, *the Gripen NG is discernably bigger than the Gripen-D.* The earlier Gripen fighters were light, agile fighters, which could land and take off from 800-metre stretches of regular highway. A carefully inbuilt ability to be refuelled and rearmed within just 10 minutes of landing allowed a small number of Gripen-Ds to fly as many sorties as a significantly larger number of heavier-maintenance fighters. But, along with low maintenance, India wanted a heavier fighter, with more weaponry and a longer range and endurance. Enter the Gripen NG.

*The NG is essentially a Mark III Gripen fighter. The Gripen A/B, a 12-tonne light fighter, was the Mark I. This went up to 14-tonnes in the Gripen C/D, which can be considered the Mark II. Our latest development, the Gripen NG, will be a 16.5 tonne medium fighter, explains de la Motte.
*


That extra weight includes an additional tonne of fuel. Along with two 450-gallon fuel pods on the wings, this allows the Gripen NG to fly a staggering 4,100 kilometres. On internal fuel alone, it flies 2,500 kilometres. That exceeds the range of much bigger aircraft like the Typhoon.

Moving the undercarriage to the wings for enlarging the fuel tanks also created space for two additional hard points (on which weapons are mounted). The Gripen NG now has ten stations, extraordinary for a 16-tonne fighter. Flying into combat, it would typically carry two IRIS-T air-to-air missiles on its wingtips, which can shoot down enemy aircraft 25 kilometres away; two Meteor beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles, deadly accurate at ranges in excess of 100 kilometres; two fuel pods with 900 gallons of fuel; three GBU-12 precision-guided bombs for ground targets; and a reconnaissance pod.

To power all this weight, the Gripen-Ds General Electric F-404 engine is being replaced with the advanced F-414 engine, an upgrade that is common to Indias Tejas fighter. With thrust increased from 18,000 pounds to 22,000 pounds, the Gripen NG already super-cruises, or flies supersonic in economy mode.

*But the NGs real strength is the cockpit, which is built to delight a fighter pilot. Using Saabs acknowledged data link capability, information is drawn from multiple sensors inside and outside the aircraft, including satellites. A terabyte-capacity computer screens out superfluous information, providing the pilot only the best input of each category. This allows him to concentrate on battle, rather than handling information.*

And finally, the pilot has satellite communications, permitting him to communicate across the globe. In a sensitive situation  such as an attack that could start, or escalate a war, or even on a nuclear strike mission  the pilot might need to take permission before launching weapons. This could be done over the satellite radio.

*During the Indian trials, when the Gripen successfully took off from Leh, the pilot called Linkoping on the satellite radio to say all is well, said one of the Gripen NG pilots.
*

'Combat aircraft contest not over'

After the failed campaign of F-35 , Shuklaji is back wth gripen argument.

*Though it would be sensible to look into this posibility ( wont happen as we know) rather than replying it as PR job , like i just did.*


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## IndoUS

re we going to get the Final decision in the next coming week? or is it going to be pushed back again. Last time they said mid December, I am crossing my fingers and hoping they are early.


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## 500

SpArK said:


> *&#8220;It&#8217;s not over till it&#8217;s over,&#8221; says Eddy de la Motte, Head of Gripen Export. &#8220;We have been and are still confident that Gripen is the perfect match for the IAF as well as for the Indian defence and aviation industry.&#8221;*


Monty Python-The Black Knight - YouTube

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## Nirvana

Though Gripen Will be Cost Effective and Cheaper,There is No Chance for it Anyway as MoD Stated Long Ago that Cost is Not a Problem but the Aircraft Should Match the Requirements and the Gripen was Already Rejected On Requirement Basis !!

Shukla jee Is Now on Payroll of Gripen Since Gripen now Has a 'Ray Of Hope' After Victory In Swiss !!

Lockheed Martin has cut the Payroll to Mr.Shukla Since It has No 'Hope'


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## Tangent

Tejas is meant to do Grippen's role in IAF.

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## ptltejas

Now further shortlist in favour of best fighter.


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## RPK

Ok Guys here is Vote list 


*Eurofighter Typhoon 99 46.92%*
5link A$HU A.Muqeet khan ankur ares arya AsianUnion AUz axisofevil Bagee beckham Bhushan Burninspice Che Guevara Cloakedvessel CONNAN Contract Killer december Devianz DRDO duhastmish DV RULES Ejaz Relite fast and furious Galaxy ganimi kawa genmirajborgza786 GLOBAL HAWK Gossipmonger GUNS-N- ROSES Indian Jatt IndianArmy indianpatriot IndianTiger Jackdaws Jade jagjitnatt JanjaWeed jha Jigs John Doe Jon Snow justanobserver kak1978 KEETARP Kinetic kingofkings Kshitiz_The sky Laughing_soldier lemurian lepziboy lilaspr lionheart1 Lord Of Gondor luckyyy LURKER madooxno9 majesticpankaj marcos98 Marxist mautkimaut metro mjnaushad Mr.Ryu MST Mujeeb47 Nalwa President Camacho ProsperBD prototype rockstar RoYaL~GuJJaR Royan rubyjackass sab shaktiman2010 shrivatsa sid426 siegecrossbow Skull and Bones sms Sonic_boom sukhoi_30MKI sunakaffck suryanaidu Swati Shukla tanlixiang28776 TEXAS BATTLESTAR The HBS Guy Trichy Trisonics true_indian Tumba Urbanized Greyhound Varad WARRANT Whiplash Zeluvaa




*Dassault Rafale 112 53.08%*
1000VA aanshu001 Abhishek_ acetophenol Agnostic_Indian ajaxpaul anathema angeldemon_007 Archie ARCHON arihant aristocrat AvidSpice baker bc040400065 bhagat Bhairava blackops BlackSonic brahmastra Break the Silence Butter scanadakz Capt.Popeye Cityboy Dash deckingraj dekho desioptimist divya DMLA EastWest eric_cartman Firemaster foxbat Frank Martin Ghoster Ghostwhowalks GodlessBastard gowthamraj gubbi hembo holysaturn Humanist IFB Ignited Mind IND151 Indian-Devil indopak indushek ironman jaunty JayAtl Just Yash kavish kingkobra kish koushik KS Leonidas Maritimer Markus Mech Mike2011 Mo12 mrwarrior006 Nair saab nick_indian Nirvana Omega007 palash_kol PANDORA pmukherjee praveen praveen007 Prism punit Raje amar rajgoynar rajusri ramu Red Dwarf relativiti rikki Roby Roybot RPK sancho sathya saumyasupratik secretservice shujah SinghIsKing soaringphnx SpArK SR 71 Blackbird sreekimpact StingRoy sudhir007 tallboy123 Tiger Awan Tin Man trident2010 Tshering22 tvsram1992 t_for_tall iuday Vasily Zaytsev vips xataxsata Zabaniya Zeeshan360

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## sathya

damn my name missing from EFT...

my vote not counted ?

oopsi... i voted Rafale..


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## NeutralCitizen

EF


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## Aryavart

*Dassault Rafale*


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## ARCHON

Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA deal beating Eurofighter Typhoon - The Times of India

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## sathya

we can finally close this thread with a big *END*


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## Tshering22

Close the thread now that we have finally selected it! Ahhhh! Whew I thought I'd have to wait for my son to ask me when the deal is getting confirmed. UPA should be punished for taking this long and costing so many precious pilot lives.


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## Bl[i]tZ

Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA deal beating Eurofighter Typhoon - The Times of India








NEW DELHI: France's Dassault Rafale wins the much-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for $10.4 billion.

Its bid was said to be 'significantly' lower than the other fighter -- the Eurofighter Typhoon -- designed by a consortium of three companies EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems.


The MMRCA is India's biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.

France's Rafale deal to include tech transfer - Sarkozy | Reuters







(Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday said that he welcomed a decision by India's government to enter into "exclusive negotiations" with France's Dassault for the purchase of 126 Rafale jet fighter planes.


In a statement, Sarkozy said talks over the contract would begin shortly, adding that the deal would include significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state.

Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) confirmed earlier that its fighter plane had been selected by the Indian air force.

(Reporting By Tim Hepher, Writing by Alexandria Sage; Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)






Three things -

1. Thank god we didn't go for EF. What the heck would we do for two air-superiority fighters since we already have Su-30MKI?
2. This was indeed the better multi role combat aircraft. (MMRCA - Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) )
3. Sparky is ecstatic today.

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## Tshering22

Bl[i]tZ;2546722 said:


> Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA deal beating Eurofighter Typhoon - The Times of India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: France's Dassault Rafale wins the much-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for $10.4 billion.
> 
> Its bid was said to be 'significantly' lower than the other fighter -- the Eurofighter Typhoon -- designed by a consortium of three companies EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems.
> 
> 
> The MMRCA is India's biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> France's Rafale deal to include tech transfer - Sarkozy | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday said that he welcomed a decision by India's government to enter into "exclusive negotiations" with France's Dassault for the purchase of 126 Rafale jet fighter planes.
> 
> 
> In a statement, Sarkozy said talks over the contract would begin shortly, adding that the deal would include significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state.
> 
> Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) confirmed earlier that its fighter plane had been selected by the Indian air force.
> 
> (Reporting By Tim Hepher, Writing by Alexandria Sage; Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)
> 
> Three things -
> 
> 1. Thank god we didn't go for EF. What the heck would we do for two air-superiority fighters since we already have Su-30MKI?
> 2. This was indeed the better multi role combat aircraft. (MMRCA - Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) )
> 3. Sparky is ecstatic today.



Would definitely give us strong strategic leverage with French. Better to enhance strategic cooperation with one country who has enough independent say in the world than four who have such diverse interests.


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## alphamale

thank god they have selected Rafale. at last policy makers got their brain back at right place.


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## Jade

Where is Sparky?

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## Jade

Dassault wins $20bn Indian fighter jet contract - FT.com


High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. Dassault wins $20bn Indian fighter jet contract - FT.com

India has chosen Frances Dassault Rafale as the preferred bidder in a hotly contested competition worth as much as $20bn to supply the Indian air force with advanced combat aircraft.

The French aircraft has beaten the Eurofighter Typhoon in a bid to equip India with 126 multi-role fighter jets in one of the worlds largest military contracts.

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. Dassault wins $20bn Indian fighter jet contract - FT.com

The winning bid is expected to shape Indias air power for the next three decades and serve as the bedrock of a strategic partnership. It also has the potential to reshape the European defence industry at a time when companies are suffering from cutbacks in their traditional developed markets.
The news is a big boost for Dassault and for Nicolas Sarkozy, Frances president, who faces an election this May and is a close ally of the Dassault group of companies, which also owns the pro-government Le Figaro newspaper.
Shares in Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale, rose almost 20 per cent in Paris. If finalised, the deal would be the Rafales first export success, which until now has been bought only by the French military.
The Indian government briefed European governments on Tuesday about its decision to advance negotiations exclusively with Paris-based Dassault in preference to the Eurofighter.
The decision came after an evaluation of the lifecycle cost of the aircraft, the acquisition cost and military offset consideration. The offsets include the amount of technology that European companies will disclose to India and the share of investment they will bring to Indias defence industries if they are chosen.
A source at the British High Commission in New Delhi said Indias foreign ministry had told governments that it had reached its decision on the basis of cost and that it was no reflection on bilateral partnerships. The rival aerospace companies were informed earlier in the day of the outcome.
We are disappointed, but its not all over until the contract is signed. We dont yet know the final decision, a UK diplomat said.
Indias Ministry of Defence confirmed that Dassault was the preferred bidder saying that the final contract would be awarded in the financial year beginning April 2012. It said the cost of the contract would be between $15bn to $20bn and that the Rafale was the cheaper of the rival bids.
Rafale is the most competent contender, said a person close to the negotiations at Indias MoD.
After trials last year, India had selected the Rafale and the multinational Eurofighter Typhoon to compete in the final stages of the competition. It had discarded bids from Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheeds F-16 Super Viper, Swedens Saab Gripen and Russias MiG-35.
We have won the contract but there are still a number of things to finalise, said Pierre Lellouche, the French trade minister. We are in a phase of exclusive negotiation.
According to Indian officials, the Rafale was selected because it was preferred by the countrys air force and was cheaper than the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is built by a consortium of the pan-European EADS, BAE Systems of the UK and Finmeccanica of Italy.
The seal of approval for French industry is also welcome for Mr Sarkozy, who is lagging well behind his socialist rival in the polls for the forthcoming presidential election. A large part of the election campaign will be fought around the issue of support for jobs and French industry.
The negotiation of the contract is going to be carried out with the close support of the French authorities. It will include the transfer of important technology guaranteed by the French state, Mr Sarkozy said on Tuesday. The conclusion of the Rafale project will illustrate the depth and scope of the strategic partnership between France and India.
The decision will be a setback to Eurofighter which had strongly lobbied India to buy its aircraft and considered its bid stronger in terms of performance, security of supply and strategic alignment. It is also a blow for David Cameron, the UK prime minister, and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, who both lobbied on behalf of Eurofighter.
The Eurofighter consortium is building the Typhoon for its four main customers: the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy. While Austria and Saudi Arabia also operate the jet, there are at present no other firm export orders for the Typhoon. While Eurofighter had promoted the jet in Malaysia, South Korea and Japan, the Indian contract was its most promising.
Uday Bhaskar, an Indian defence analyst, said the decision would have a strong bearing on bilateral relations.


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## boris

RIP Typhoon.


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## acetophenol

god! i need to start my homeworks on rafale now!


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## Machoman

Awsome plane Congrats to all Indian....

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## peep

Jade said:


> Where is Sparky?


nned 

has been ba


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## acetophenol

on this special occasion,







party anyone?


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## T90TankGuy

i would rather have a blue


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## Shaurya

A very good decision... lets close this epic thread now....


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## boris

Would love to see Chogy sir and Gambit sirs views soon.


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## AstanoshKhan

Congratulations Indians - such a beautiful and sexy bird indeed.

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## prabhakar

boris said:


> Would love to see Chogy sir and Gambit sirs views soon.



you forget to add Mastan Khan


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## Jade

MMRCA News from Pakistan media 

India selects France


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## palash_kol

Great news.....Now IN will be going the rafale way...


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## Screambowl

would rafale have thrust vectoring?


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## laltaputu

15 Factors for the Dassault Rafale wins MMRCA

1.IAF's love for Mirrage 2000 which is a very potent platform.

2.Infrastructure created for over 100 mirages in the 80's can be used now.

3.Upgrade of Mirrage 2000 to Mirrage 2000-5 MK2 standard which will be a similarity with Rafale

4. The 1 billion dollar invested in MICA missile.

5.Dassault Rafale was build from ground up tp be a omirole or multirole platform which the IAF wants

6.SPECTRA + AESA in 2012 (Typhoons AESA 2015) + AASM (proved in Libya)

7.Dual sit version useful for training and more useful for ground attack(twin seater of typhoon is only a trainer without any advantage)

8.Dassault Rafale is cheaper than typhoon.

9.French a reliable supplier not sanctioning india after 1998.

10.All components from one country no dealing with 4 countries.

11.Dassault Rafale has almost all french components while Typhoon has some american components susceptible to sanctions.

12.Full transfer of technology including source code.

13.Today in European crisis France can give us more political leverage than UK+Germany,italy and spain are in deep crisis.

14.Marine version present which makes it attractive for Indian Navy.

15.Hidden deals in STRATEGIC , ECONOMICAL and IINDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT(KAVERI,MCA,SSN,SSBN etc) arena.

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

Engine and payload comparison between Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon 
Dassault Rafale

Empty weight: 9,500 kg
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans 
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,000 lb) internal
Payload:9,500 kg
Thrust/weight: 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile)

Eurofighter Typhoon

Empty weight: 11,150 kg
Loaded weight: 16,000 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 23,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,000 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 89 kN (20,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) internal
Thrust/weight: 1.15(clean)
Payload:7,500 kg

so you can see a TOW of Dassault Rafale 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) is much better than 1.15 (clean ) of Eurofighter Typhoon

Dassault Rafale is 

1.Lighter(so a 75.62 kN engine is enough) but have more Max. takeoff weight than Typhoon.
2.Carry more fuel.
3.Carry more payload
4. Dassault Rafale has a 30mm gun as to 27 mm of Eurofighter Typhoon.

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## Executioner

We welcome France. Now Sky is changing the color with charge of Indian tri color.


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## Safriz

As on 15th July 2012,india hasnt ordered Eurofighter....
This is picture i took at Farnborough Airshow this Friday and it shows the countries that have ordered for Typhoons..India isnt there.


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## Abingdonboy

^yes, thank God!!


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## Koovie

Safriz said:


> As on 15th July 2012,india hasnt ordered Eurofighter....
> This is picture i took at Farnborough Airshow this Friday and it shows the countries that have ordered for Typhoons..India isnt there.



ARE YOU LIVING BEHIND THE MOON????!!!!!!!!! 
RAFALE HAS WON THE MMRCA AND NOT THE EF !


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## SpArK



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## sancho

Rafale already has US Paveway LGBs, the point is that they won't integrate other US weapons like Amraam, or JSOW unless we would fund it alone of course.
More interesting would be integrating Indian weapons like Sudarshan LGBs or HELINA missiles, but they have to be fully developed first.

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## Craig Abbott

Hello - some incredible shots of the Rafale.

I am working on a 1/7 scale turbine model of a B and are looking for a subject and a pile of reference. Do you happen to have more? Thanks


































[/quote]

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## Nishan_101

I am preety sure that IAF will love to have EF-2000 and Rafael in 200++ numbers... also if LCA and MCA in combine fails than it will open up doors for F-35A,B&C.....


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## SpArK

EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON 

Final check, and ready to go...
Image Credit: Jamie Hunter

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## SpArK

Between sea and sky!RAFALE

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## SpArK

RAF LEUCHARS TYPHOONS PARTICIPATE IN WORLD’S MOST COMPLEX AIR COMBAT EXERCISE

Typhoon aircraft and personnel from 1(Fighter) and 6 Squadrons, normally based at RAF Leuchars, have participated in the largest and most complex air combat exercise in the world. Held at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, Exercise Red Flag 14-1 attracted over 160 military aircraft from the US, the UK and Australia.

The Royal Air Force is no stranger to Red Flag, having been a regular participant since the exercise was established in 1975 to improve the survival chances for military aircrew by replicating real combat as closely as possible. 

The commander of the RAF Detachment, Group Captain Mark Jeffery, said:

"Red Flag is the pinnacle; it's the exercise you need to do to make sure your forces are ready. Hopefully they'll never have to do this for real, but clearly we need to be ready to do this anywhere in the world."

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## SpArK

RAF Eurofighter Typhoons from 6 Squadron returning to Nellis after a Red Flag real time sortie.
Image Credit: Geoffrey Lee


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## SpArK



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## Executioner




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## SpArK



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## SpArK

The Issues






> further progress in determining the final cost of the mammoth procurement programme hinges on France accepting the defence ministry's condition that Dassault should take the responsibility for all the aircraft and not just the first lot of 18 that will be flown in from France


.



> The French aircraft maker is willing to give training and documents for building the aircraft but it has so far refrained from giving an assurance on the final product as it cannot supervise the work done in an Indian company. There are several intricate issues linked to the condition. Even HAL will not accept supervision by a foreign vendor.





> The delay in finalising the contract and a change of government in New Delhi has provided an opportunity to those who lost out to try to remain in contention. A whole new debate has been ignited by raising questions about the big ticket purchase on the grounds that cheaper options are available.
> 
> The government has not given any indication of a re-think as negotiations have continued with Dassault. Adding to the meddle is Brazil's decision to buy Grippen instead of Rafale. Apart from IAF, all eyes were on Brazil's decision. After much flip-flop, Brazil chose to buy 36 Gripen NG fighters for $5.475 billion





Read more at: MRCA deal: Govt to hold fresh discussions with Dassault to break Rafale logjam : North, News - India Today


*New Delhi, October 31, 2014*


Read more at: MRCA deal: Govt to hold fresh discussions with Dassault to break Rafale logjam : North, News - India Today


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