# Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions.



## Kompromat

All threads regarding India's AMCA development, will be merged into one from this point on.

Please report any more threads.
______________________________________________

Useful links.

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft by 2018
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Project
CVRDE to develop gearboxes for advanced medium combat aircraft
Plans for Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft
The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

IAF issues ASR for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA )
Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Fifth Generation Stealth Figh
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Project
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) at Aero India: Single or Twin Seat?
IAF plans for Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) on hold due to Tejas

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## Water Car Engineer

Latest shown design. Design still not frozen.









Air ducts goes over the internal weapons bay.

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## bloo



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## Water Car Engineer

bloo said:


>












That's early testing on what would be AURAs ducts.

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## Badbadman

@Aeronaut Thanks man. AMCA needed a one uniform thread.

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## kurup



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## furkansayed

Hindustan Aeronautical's Limited (HAL) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will be India's second fifth generation stealth fighter aircraft. The state-of-the art aircraft is planned to be ready by 2025 and is currently under development.

The aircraft's 1:8 model was unveiled by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of India in Aero India-2013.

The highly-classified project was conceived by ADA at the behest of Indian Air Force (IAF). The IAF asked ADA to develop to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features.

In 2010, ADA sought USD 2 billion (approximately Rs. 9,060 crore) for the development of the fighter plane.

ADA has so far received 100 crore rupees of the total amount and the project will develop to technology demonstrators and seven prototypes with the allotted money.






Its Powerplant is expected to be GTX Kaveri, with capabilities of thrust vectoring. It is also heard that the Powerplant will provide aircraft with supercruise facility. The Powerplant will be developed on joint collaboration with France.

The design-based stealth features will include further optimised airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature. The aircraft will have an internal weapons bay and radar-absorbent paint and compositesm, quotes Wikipedia.





It is expected to be armed with DRDO's missile Astra and other advanced missiles, stand-off weapons and precision weapons. The aircraft will have the capability to deploy Precision Guided Munitions. The aircraft will feature extended detection range and targeting range with the ability to release weapons at supersonic speeds. The aircraft's avionics suite will include AESA radar, IRST and appropriate electronic warfare systems and all aspect missiles warning suite.





Crew: 1 (pilot)
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 12,000 kg (26,456 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 18,000 kg (39,683 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × GTRE GTX 35 VS Kaveri NG turbofans
Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,130 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 90 kN (20,230 lbf) each






Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,000 ft/min)






*Indian ‘Home-Grown’ AMCA, An Alternative To FGFA*
June 13, 2013, 12:20 PM
Despite being involved in the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) joint program with Russia, India is developing a next-generation fighter of its own–the advanced multirole combat aircraft (AMCA).

The Indian defense ministry’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) showed a large-scale model of the AMCA at Aero India 2013 in February, in Bengaluru. The aerodynamic shape has been considerably refined in comparison to an earlier model exhibited at Aero India 2011, and even more so when compared to a model for wind-tunnel testing shown at Aero India 2009, at which time it was “MCA” without being “Advanced.” This provides evidence that AMCA is being developed in parallel withFGFA. DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Establishment is leading the AMCA program.

Addressing the next-generation fighter issue, Air Marshall Norman Anil Kumar Browne, the Indian air force chief of staff, declined to compare the AMCA and FGFA, but insisted that “homegrown” projects shall be continued, especially in the area of mission equipment and fighter engines, since “nobody will give us these technologies.”

Browne also spoke in support of the light combat aircraft “Tejas,” despite the continuing slow progress of this indigenous fighter project, which has been delayed by some 20 years. He said the Tejas would attain initial operational clearance (IOC) at the end of this year and would be through final operational clearance in 2015, with the rider that the air force does not expect this airplane to fully meet specification until the advent of the Tejas Mk.2, with its entry-into-service planned for 2024.

The AMCA is likely to be powered by the Kaveri motor, also developed in-country. This engine had been conceived for the Tejas, but ran slower than expected and was eventually “detached” from the airframe effort. Instead, experimental and series production Tejas aircraft received the General Electric F404 turbine engine and later will get the more advanced F414.

The very fact that India continues with the AMCA is an indication that New Delhi has some concerns about the FGFA. Browne hinted that because of India’s late decision to join the Russian project, the FGFA is difficult to arrange as a 50/50 program, as the baseline airframe is too advanced for that. There are also some other fears, such as maturity of the Russian technology in certain spheres. In particular, the prototypes constructed so far feature extensive use of metal in their airframes, reflecting the gaps and shortcomings in the modern composite technology available to Sukhoi. At the same time, the homegrown Tejas has a 43-percent share of composites in its airframe.

Official information on the AMCA at Aero India 2013 was limited to a one-page leaflet with three views and key marketing terms, such as net-centric warfare, vehicle management (including weapons), data fusion, decision aids, integrated modular avionics, internal carriage of weapons, signature control with sharpening for low observability, AESA radar, IR search-and-track, supersonic persistence, high-speed weapon release and thrust vectoring. It was stated that the aircraft would be able to “swing roles” variously between long/short-range and air-to-air/ground strike.

According to press reports, scientist Dr. A.K. Ghosh heads the AMCA development effort. Some observers have suggested that, unlike the FGFA, the AMCA’s primary role will be ground attack, and so it will be a direct replacement to the MiG-27M and the Jaguar. Also, there are reports about a “revolutionary” pilot station employing a panoramic active-matrix display (or displays) with touch-screen interface and voice commands, and a helmet-mounted sight replacing, rather than supplementing, a head-up display.

The AMCA is likely to be an “electronically” actuated airplane rather than hydraulically operated. Instead of the digital flight-control computer, as used on the Tejas, the AMCAis to have a distributed processing system employing fast processors and smart subsystems that can pass over and combine the processing power available in them. This requires the employment of the IEEE-1394B-STD rather than MIL-STD-1553B databus standard. The new airplane is also planned to have a “central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic-fiber channel by means of a multiport connectivity switching modules.” Also mentioned are fly-by-light, electro-optic architecture with fiberoptic links for signal and data communications.

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## Truth Finder

*Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

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## kurup



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## Water Car Engineer

>




Designs with this wing shape is old.

At the moment, the newest shown models have a wing shape like the YF-23.

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## Superboy

First flight by 2020?


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## Badbadman

First flight by 2018.


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## jarves

Badbadman said:


> First flight by 2018.


Project is dead or alive?


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## Badbadman

jarves said:


> Project is dead or alive?


I think it is pretty much alive and running.


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## jarves

Badbadman said:


> I think it is pretty much alive and running.


No official conformation?


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## Badbadman

jarves said:


> No official conformation?


May be because it has not gotten full allocation of funds yet. They are trying to finish LCA first. But it is pretty much there.


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## Water Car Engineer

jarves said:


> Project is dead or alive?




It's alive, but not in full throttle mode. A TD-1 will fly, but most probably 2020+.

Final design hasn't yet frozen and no full funding is given.


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## Badbadman

I've heard that once LCA is done with then they gonna approve fill funding for it. Bottom line is AMCA depends on LCA completion. Sooner they finish with LCA sooner AMCA work will start.


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## HariPrasad

Thanks @Aeronaut for starting such a nice thread.

Design has undergone a huge change starting from tailless design to some other sort of designs. Current design seems to be highly aerodynamic.

Look at cockpit and nosecone. It appear to be highly aerodynamic. Tail appears differently in different Models.

Oppose to PAKFA, Engines appeared to located very close. We should make it sure that we do not face the same problem as J 20.

Wing appears differently in different model so as rudder.

Over all design seems Awesome. we should make it sure that we realize it very soon.








Which engine is Planned? From Model picture, It doesn't seem to be Thrust victor.

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## drunken-monke

Water Car Engineer said:


> Designs with this wing shape is old.
> 
> At the moment, the newest shown models have a wing shape like the YF-23.



The image indicate that design is like YF 23 black widow....


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## HariPrasad

drunken-monke said:


> The image indicate that design is like YF 23 black widow....



Yes but the difference in wing in different model is clearly visible. Picture in your post is certainly a picture like black window but the one in my post differs. I think that the in in water car engineer's post will be more agile.


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## kaykay

HariPrasad said:


> Thanks @Aeronaut for starting such a nice thread.
> 
> Design has undergone a huge change starting from tailless design to some other sort of designs. Current design seems to be highly aerodynamic.
> 
> Look at cockpit and nosecone. It appear to be highly aerodynamic. Tail appears differently in different Models.
> 
> Oppose to PAKFA, Engines appeared to located very close. We should make it sure that we do not face the same problem as J 20.
> 
> Wing appears differently in different model so as rudder.
> 
> Over all design seems Awesome. we should make it sure that we realize it very soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which engine is Planned? From Model picture, It doesn't seem to be Thrust victor.


above pic is an old design.


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## drunken-monke

HariPrasad said:


> Yes but the difference in wing in different model is clearly visible. Picture in your post is certainly a picture like black window but the one in my post differs. I think that the in in water car engineer's post will be more agile.


Is there are final design for this project yet.. or just peculation


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## HariPrasad

drunken-monke said:


> Is there are final design for this project yet.. or just peculation



We see 2 to 3 designs. We do not know which is last but I believe that one looks like that of YF 23 is the latest. The one in post 20.



kaykay said:


> above pic is an old design.




I think that the one in post 20 like YF 23 is the latest.


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## GURU DUTT

some guy told me that AMCA will be much closer to Black Widow with a pair of 414s(initialy) and may not have vertical tail fins like the orignal MCA concept


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## sancho

drunken-monke said:


> The image indicate that design is like YF 23 black widow....



That's a common myth, only because the wings have similarities, but other than that, the design is completely different from the YF23. Be it seperated engines , all moving vertical tail, the weapon bays in the fuselage between the air intakes, all things that shows more similarity between YF23 and the T50, as well as the differences of YF23 to AMCA.



Water Car Engineer said:


> It's alive, but not in full throttle mode. A TD-1 will fly, but most probably 2020+.
> 
> Final design hasn't yet frozen and no full funding is given.



Alive only for ADA/DRDO, IAF is not much interested in it since they don't need it, so why should they waste money on it? IF DRDO convinces MoD to fund it, IAF might take a few, but they will focus on FGFA and AURA since they are more capable and useful for them.

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## 帅的一匹

When will AMCA being ready for IAF?


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> When will AMCA being ready for IAF?



Depends on when they want it to be ready and what the specifications of the fighter should be and nobody knows that today.


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## 帅的一匹

sancho said:


> Depends on when they want it to be ready and what the specifications of the fighter should be and nobody knows that today.


 i think IAF shall knock down its requirement of Specification for AMCA and make it clear to DRDO in the first begining. Make sure LCA project alike delay won't happen again.

What's the meaning of starting a project without any specific deadline?


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## Superboy

wanglaokan said:


> When will AMCA being ready for IAF?




Considering J-20 development started in the late 1990s and made first flight in 2011, I would say maybe by 2025 for AMCA first flight.

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## trident2010

If we can fly first prototype in 5 years, it will good.


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## jarves

From The Cage: AMCA: Exclusive Photos of Internal Weapons Bay

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## kurup

jarves said:


> From The Cage: AMCA: Exclusive Photos of Internal Weapons Bay

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## Rahul9090

looks awesome ,when are we getting our first prototype?


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## IND151

AMCA will be powered by Existing engine ?? | idrw.org

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## jarves

IND151 said:


> AMCA will be powered by Existing engine ?? | idrw.org


Thanks for sharing.


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## rockstarIN

I have a nice idea, just get two designs...single and double engine..

Single engine can be powered by MKI engines later replaced by FGFA 5th gen engine.

double engine design will be powered by Mig-29k Engines till we get own (?) engines.

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## ni8mare

rockstarIN said:


> I have a nice idea, just get two designs...single and double engine..
> 
> Single engine can be powered by MKI engines later replaced by FGFA 5th gen engine.
> 
> double engine design will be powered by Mig-29k Engines till we get own (?) engines.


what about GE engine


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## trident2010

Lets hope we can see first prototype by 2018.


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## VeeraBahadur

Livefist: Updated Literature On India's 5th Gen AMCA Concept

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## SRP

*Updated Literature On India's 5th Gen AMCA Concept *
















Livefist: Updated Literature On India's 5th Gen AMCA Concept

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## jarves

Post this on sticky AMCA thread.

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## kurup



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## kurup



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## IND151

jarves said:


> From The Cage: AMCA: Exclusive Photos of Internal Weapons Bay



The CGIs show that AMCA carries 5 AAMs, most probably short range.

I wonder how many BVRs it will be able to carry,2 or 4? (F-35 can carry only 2 BVRs.)

@sandy_3126 @sancho


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## DacterSaab

I noticed weapon bay doors of stealth fighters usually have hinge doors. Wouldn't sliding doors be stealthier?


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## skysthelimit

DacterSaab said:


> I noticed weapon bay doors of stealth fighters usually have hinge doors. Wouldn't sliding doors be stealthier?


Sliding doors need internal space - which is already at a premium for stealth fighters.

Hinges are usually engineered to minimize radar reflecting straight edges.

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## trident2010

Design looks good but we need to develop many 5th gen tech including radar, avionics and engines. FGFA spin offs might help.


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## jarves

This is an old news but i think it is worth sharing here.........

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## Water Car Engineer



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## SR-91

nice, but would like to see it in bluish gray color scheme.


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## sancho

Interesting report about the GE 414 upgrade potential and why the higher thrust varient, is not an option for LCA and might not be for AMCA:



> *USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade*
> 
> 
> ...But the navy could also be tempted – if the F414 EDE programme is launched – to seek a thrust upgrade, which includes a doubling of acceleration power.“That gives you options in terms of future threats and aircraft capability,” Caplan says.
> The trade-off with upgrading the engine to produce 26,400lb-thrust is a considerable hike in maintenance costs. Running the F414 EDE at the higher thrust setting reduces turbine life to 2,000h, Caplan says. This is just one-third of the current 6,000h interval...



USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade - 4/28/2014 - Flight Global


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## IND151

Water Car Engineer said:


> Designs with this wing shape is old.
> 
> At the moment, the newest shown models have a wing shape like the YF-23.




Nice CGIs.


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## astitva sood

Stealth featurs of amca??? Can we have s shaped air ducts in just 13 m of space???
Atleast 16 m is needed for stealthy air ducts
F22 :18.9 m
F35 :16.2 m(stealth argued)
J 20:20.9 m
Su t50: 19.4 m

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## astitva sood

skysthelimit said:


> Sliding doors need internal space - which is already at a premium for stealth fighters.
> 
> Hinges are usually engineered to minimize radar reflecting straight edges.


Also sliding doors may take time to fully open up and drop weapos.time of just 3 seconds may b d game changer in 1 to 1 dogfights


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## DacterSaab

astitva sood said:


> Also sliding doors may take time to fully open up and drop weapos.time of just 3 seconds may b d game changer in 1 to 1 dogfights


yeah right maybe we shouldn't use doors at all, how about we use electro-magnetic force shields instead?

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## astitva sood

DacterSaab said:


> yeah right maybe we shouldn't use doors at all, how about we use electro-magnetic force shields instead?


Lol a good idea but force shields will not provide stealth at all as enemy radars would pick them instantly...also They would desrupt the communications system


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## DacterSaab

astitva sood said:


> Lol a good idea but force shields will not provide stealth at all as enemy radars would pick them instantly...also They would desrupt the communications system



Who needs stealth bro? missiles can't penetrate a force-shield and for communicating we can simply use psychological telepathy


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## astitva sood

DacterSaab said:


> Who needs stealth bro? missiles can't penetrate a force-shield and for communicating we can simply use psychological telepathy


Seems like an idea right from the star wars :p
No but seriously man i dont c this thing coming in next 2 decades and integrating it with an aircraft where we have limited power would be even more difficult i guess



DacterSaab said:


> and for communicating we can simply use psychological telepathy


SERIOUSLY?


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## Fahad Khan 2

Indians have there own 5th gen program is good but the way they handle project I doubt 2020 date....


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## trident2010

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Indians have there own 5th gen program is good but the way they handle project I doubt 2020 date....



Not 2020 atleast 2025.


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## astitva sood

trident2010 said:


> Not 2020 atleast 2025.


If thr fgfa rools out on time, the amca profect wont take long from then on...maybe by 2025

For some reason , it wont edit my comnt so pls ignore spelling


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Not 2020 atleast 2025.



2020 would be the aim for the first flight, but that's very optimistic at the current stage, unless they take benefits from FGFA, which ADA / DRDO try to avoid.


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## trident2010

sancho said:


> 2020 would be the aim for the first flight, but that's very optimistic at the current stage, unless they take benefits from FGFA, which ADA / DRDO try to avoid.



Exactly !! I think 2025 would be more reasonable timeframe.


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## DacterSaab

astitva sood said:


> Seems like an idea right from the star wars :p


Please man you gotta give me some credit for my creativity.



astitva sood said:


> No but seriously man i dont c this thing coming in next 2 decades and integrating it with an aircraft where we have limited power would be even more difficult i guess


Try 2 centuries that'll sound more realistic. And I think that's the problem with the rest of the world, Everyone starts developing whatever US has already developed, no creativity, instead why don't they try developing what noone's developed before?




Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Indians have there own 5th gen program is good but the way they handle project I doubt 2020 date....


No I'd say 1st flight by end of 2020 is quite within their capabilities.


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## ptltejas

To Consider that what we need for the AMCA or FGFA I just see one web on which different things regarding F-22 is given, we need something like that for the AMCA. and some new tech too.

*F-22 Raptor Avionics*
Avionics share as large a part in the success of a fighter as the ability to maneuver and fly fast, or to "turn and burn." The design issues that had to be addressed involved solving the technical and organizational challenges of running the program. Also crucial to the design, was the reduction of pilots' "housekeeping" responsibilities.

The F-22 will have the first integrated avionics suite ever flown on a combat aircraft. The Northrop/Grumman-Texas Instruments APG-77 radar, Lockheed Martin electronic warfare suite and the TRW communications/navigation/IFF subsystems are all included.

The requirements for the F-22's avionics system are derived from the F-22 Weapon System Concept, the guiding design principles for the overall weapons system. The integrated avionics system is one of the key elements (the others being stealth, maneuverability, and supercruise) that will give the F-22 the tactical advantage against the threats of the future.

The avionics system requirements are based on zones of operational interest. These zones, based on enemy and own ship capabilities, determine the information requirements for each object encountered in the mission. Today's fighters have some of the same sensing capabilities and subsystems to be controlled, but their federated architecture (that is, each avionics function has its own processor and essentially works independently) makes the pilot the integrator of data and the manager of all the supporting subsystems.

The F-22 operational concept, and the sophistication of the various systems requires integration at many levels, including sensor control, sensor data fusion, the architectural components that support these functions, and the displays that are the primary means of communication with the pilot. The key attributes of the avionics system are driven by the other weapon system characteristics such as stealth, supercruise, reliability, availability, and need for growth capacity.

Integrated avionics means different things to different people.


To the *pilot*, it means all the information is coordinated and available from a single source.
To the *software engineer*, it means access to shared data about the situation, the mission, and the aircraft systems.
To the *hardware designer*, it means common modules in a single backplane with the connectivity and bandwidth to support the required processing.
Coherent presentation and control (the pilot's view of integration) is not simply a way of organizing functions or routing lots of data to a single display. It actually includes additional functionality, such as situation assessment and weapons fire control. The software view of integration means that the various functional pieces of the software must have efficient access to globally coherent information, such as track files, navigation data, mission data, and aircraft system status information. A hardware architecture built on common components, common modules, standard buses, and common operating system provides the infrastructure for the processing and communication between the processes described above. In addition, modular approach allows for easy expansion of capacity and capability, fault tolerance, and reconfiguration.

Translating the system requirements into a producible, affordable, and maintainable design was the work of the Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) program. The basic concept, derived from the Pave Pillar program in the 1980s (which included development of Integrated Communications, Navigation, Identification Avionics (ICNIA) and Integrated Electronic Warfare System (INEWS) systems) was to provide all the signal and data processing resources in a central collection of modular processors, linked to the sensors, subsystems, and pilot by high-speed data busses. The F-22 architecture provides just such a system, interfaced to the air-cooled, flight safety critical systems such as the flight control system.

The TRW Communications/Navigation/Identification (CNI) system includes an intra-flight datalink, JTIDS Joint Tactical Information Distribution System link, and an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system. Boeing is responsible for mission software and avionics integration. The aircraft has a Litton LTN-100G laser gyroscope inertial reference, a global positioning system and a microwave landing system.

The F-22's avionics suite features extensive use of very high-speed integrated circuit (VHSIC) technology, common modules, and high-speed data buses. The avionics suite is a highly integrated system maximizing performance allowing the pilot to concentrate on the mission, rather than on managing the sensors as in current fighters. Technologies incorporated in the F-22 include a Common Integrated Processor (CIP), a central "brain" with the equivalent computing throughput of two Cray supercomputers; shared low-observable antennas; ADA software; expert systems; advanced data fusion-cockpit displays; integrated electronic warfare system (INEWS) technology; integrated communications, navigation, and identification (CNI) avionics technology; and fiber optics data transmission. Nearly all of these elements were demonstrated during dem/val in a prototype architecture.

*Common Integrated Processor (CIP)*

The Hughes-built Common Integrated Processor (CIP) serve as the "brains" for the F-22's totally integrated avionics system. CIPs are the central, networked computers that enable the integration of radar, electronic warfare, and identification sensor data, as well as communication, navigation, weapon, and systems status data into coherent, fused information for communication to the pilot via multi-function displays. Rather than radar, the electronic warfare system, and the electronic warfare system having individual processors, the CIP supports all signal and data processing for all sensors and mission avionics.

The CIP modules have the ability to emulate any of the electronic functions through automatic reprogramming. For example, if the CIP module that is acting as radio dies, one of the other modules will automatically reload the radio program and take over the radio function. This approach to avionics makes the equipment extremely tolerant to combat damage as well as flexible from a design upgrade point of view.

There are two CIPs in each F-22, with 66 module slots per CIP. The CIPs (which is quite literally the size of a oversized bread box) are liquid cooled avionics racks containing both signal processing and data processing modules inserted into common backplane. They have identical backplanes, and all of the F-22's processing requirements can be handled by only seven different types of processors. There are 33 signal processors and 43 data processors interconnected via a fault-tolerant network. Each processing element is manufactured and packaged as an approximately 6x7x3/8ths inch line replaceable module (LRM) for ease of flightline maintenance.

Each module is limited by design to only 75 percent of its capability, so the F-22 has 30 percent growth capability with no change to the existing equipment. Currently, 19 of 66 slots in CIP 1 and 22 of 66 slots in CIP 2 are not populated and are available for growth. There is space, power and cooling provisions in the aircraft for a third CIP, so the requirement for a 200 percent avionics growth capability in the F-22 can be easily met. There is coordinated plan for technology growth that will help keep the CIP at state-of-the-art levels. As electronics continue to get smaller and more powerful, it is conceivable that there could be 300 percent increase in avionics capability.

The exponential explosion of computer technology in recent years has allowed the F-22 team to radically alter every aspect of the program from detailed design through manufacturing, communication, and into the cockpit itself. An example of the effect of the advances in computer technology is a comparison between the computers used in the Lunar Module and those used in the F-22. The Lunar Module's computers operated at 100,000 operations per second and had 37 kilobytes of memory. Today, the F-22's Common Integrated Processor main mission computers operate at 10.5 billion instructions per second and have 300 megabytes of memory. These numbers represent 100,000 times the computing speed and 8,000 times the memory of the Apollo moon lander.

*AN/APG-77 Radar*

The AN/APG-77 radar is the F-22's primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. A Northrop Grumman-led joint venture with Raytheon is developing the active-element electronically scanned array radar. Northrop Grumman is also responsible for the radar sensor design, software, and systems integration.

The AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array that features a separate transmitter and receiver for each of the antenna's several thousand, finger-sized radiating elements. Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission. The radar is key to the F-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects the F-22.

The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be the most advanced airborne radar in the world, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. The active, electronically scanned array (ESA) configuration has a wider transmit bandwidth while requiring significantly less volume and prime power. The system represents about half the weight of an equivalent passive ESA design. Each of the hundreds of individual solid-state devices generates only small amounts of power, but the aggregate for the entire array is substantial.

The F-22 s APG-77 electronically scanned array antenna is composed of several thousand transmit/receive modules, circulators, radiators and manifolds assembled into subarrays and then integrated into a complete array. The baseline design used thousands of hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects to make the numerous radio frequency, digital, and direct current connections between the components and manifolds that make up the subarray. Northrop Grumman Corporation, of Baltimore, MD, has developed an improved manufacturing process for F-22 aircraft radar components. The new process could result in a cost avoidance of nearly $87 million on the planned production run for the aircraft. By replacing the hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects with automated ribbon bond interconnects, the first pass yield of the subarray assembly has been vastly improved.

The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.

The Air Force expects to take delivery of the first aircraft with a new radar in November 2006 but the software needed to provide the robust ground attack capability will not be completed until 2010. According to a representative of the Director, Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E), the key to achieving a more robust ground attack capability will center on the integration of this new radar. A December 2005 report issued by the Defense Contract Management Agency stated that problems encountered during the test and integration of the new radar has added risk to the development program. Until software and integration testing in the F-22A have been successfully completed, we consider the design unstable creating the potential for significant cost overruns and schedule delays.

*Communications/Navigation/Identification (CNI) *

The F-22's Communications/Navigation/Identification (CNI) 'system' is a collection of communication, navigation, and identification functions, once again employing the CIP for signal and data processing resources. Each CNI function has its associated aperture installed throughout the aircraft.

*Inter/Intra-Flight Data Link (IFDL)*

Included in the Communications/Navigation/Identification (CNI) system is an Inter/Intra-Flight Data Link (IFDL) that allows all F-22s in a flight to share target and system data automatically and without radio calls. The Inter/Intra Flight Data Link is one of the powerful tools that make all F-22s more capable. One of the original objectives for the F-22 was to increase the percentage of fighter pilots who make 'kills'. With the IFDL, each pilot is free to operate more autonomously because, for example, the leader can tell at a glance what his wing man's fuel state is, his weapons remaining, and even the enemy aircraft has targeted. Targets can be automatically prioritized and set up in a shoot list with one button push. A 'shoot' cue in the head up display alerts the pilot to the selected weapon kill parameters and he fires the weapons. Both a pilot's and wing man's missile flight can be monitored on the cockpit displays. Classical tactics based on visual 'tally' (visual identification) and violent formation maneuvers that reduce the wing man to 'hanging on' may have to be rethought in light of such capabilities. This link also allows additional F-22 flights to be added to the net for multi-flight coordinated attack.

*Electronic Warfare (EW)*

The Electronic Warfare 'system' is also a collection of apertures, electronics, and processors (again using the CIP) that detect and locate signals from other aircraft and controls the F-22's expendable countermeasures (chaff and flares). The EW aperture locations provide all-aspect coverage, and the system includes a missile launch detection capability.

The F-22's electronic warfare system includes a radar warning receiver and a Lockheed Martin Sanders missile launch detector.

*Stores Management System (SMS)*

The Stores Management System (SMS) controls weapons launch sequences, including door control (for the internal weapons carriage) and emergency weapons jettison.

*Power Supplies*

Boeing manufactures the power supplies for most of the F-22's electronic systems. The power supply modules designed for the F-22's avionics are cooled with polyalphaolefin (PAO) liquid coolant to carry away heat generated by the supplies' power-conversion process. The reduced temperature allows the component's power output to increase from 250 watts to 400 watts. Each module measure 6.41 inches by 5.99 inches by 0.58 inches and weighs 1.8 pounds.

*Liquid Flow-Through Cooling*

The PAO cooling concept also applies to all types of Line-Replaceable Modules (LRMs) in the CIP. Liquid flow-through cooling improves reliability, lending to an mean time between failures (MTBF) of 25,000 hours. The coolant, which is routed through the module, comes from the F-22's environmental control system (ECS). The LRM concept is the baseline for all of the power supply modules built for the F-22 to minimize maintenance time. Built-in diagnostic routines will pinpoint a failed power supply on an F-22 and allow maintenance personnel to remove it, replace it and verify proper operation within 15 minutes.

*Avionics Racks*

The avionics racks, located in the forward fuselage, contain the processing, not only for the mission avionics, but also for the Vehicle Management System (VMS) and Integrated Vehicle System Controller (IVSC). The flight worthy racks, including the liquid-flowthrough racks required for the CIP, are now in production.

*Inertial Reference System (IRS)*

Two Litton LN-100F ring laser gyroscopes in the forward fuselage provide the aircraft a self-contained method of knowing where it is. These inertial measurement units, placed nose to nose behind the radar on the aircraft's centerline, are operated off separate data buses to provide independent measurement data. In normal flight, IRS data is fused with Global Positioning System (GPS) data to provide an extremely reliable navigational capability. The IMUs are the only completely reliable source of data for the aircraft at attitudes above 30 degrees angle of attack (AOA). One of the IRS units feeds data directly into the CIP for gun control steering.

*Software*

The software that provides the avionics system's full functionality is composed of approximately 1.7 million lines of code. Ninety percent of the software is written in Ada, the Department of Defense's common computer language. Exceptions to the Ada requirement are granted only for special processing or maintenance requirements. The software development plan, though stretched as a result of past funding constraints, has remained essentially unchanged since the start of Engineering and Manufacturing Development.

The avionics software is integrated in three blocks, each building on the capability of the previous block. Each block cycle is a sequence of subsystem deliveries, integration testing at the Avionics Integration Lab (AIL) at Boeing (see AIL in the Test Facilities section), and then delivery to Lockheed Martin in Marietta, Ga., for final integration into the aircraft and check out, as well as support to the aircraft.

Block 1 is primarily radar capability, but Block 1 does contain more than 50 percent of the avionics suite's full functionality source lines of code (SLOC) and provides end-to-end capability for the sensor-to-pilot data flow. The fourth EMD F-22 was the first to have a full avionics suite, and it flew in mid 1999.

Block 2 is the start of sensor fusion. It adds radio frequency coordination, reconfiguration, and some electronic warfare functions. Block 2 was integrated into the aircraft in late 1999.

Block 3 encompasses full sensor fusion built on enhanced electronic warfare and CNI functions. It has an embedded training capability and provides for electronic counter-counter measures (ECCM). It was integrated into the aircraft in the spring of 2000. Block 3.1, which adds full GBU-32 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) launch capability and Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) receive-only capability, was integrated in April 2000.

The proposed Block 4 software will be post-Engineering and Manufacturing Development. It is scheduled to be integrated on the Initial Operational Capability F-22s and will likely include helmet-mounted cueing, AIM-9X integration, and Joint Tactical Information Distribution System send capability.

CIP hardware was available well before the subsystem application software code and unit test phases began for the Block 1 software. For some of the higher risk software, such as sensor data fusion, specific algorithm testbeds have been constructed, and prototype software, which is instrumented to measure performance (correlation times, accuracy, etc.). has been operational since the start of EMD.

*Flying Test Bed (FTB)*

The Flying Test Bed (FTB) represents an interim test environment between the controlled, but static environment of the ground labs, and the dynamic flight testing of the F-22. Sensor systems installed in the aircraft, CIPs, as well as operator consoles and instrumentation will be used to test avionics capabilities prior to release to the F-22.

*Summary*

In summary, the F-22 provides a revolution in avionics capability, suited to the mission and the airframe of the F-22. The avionics system design is nearing completion and key components already operational and delivered.

F-22 Avionics

*F-22 Raptor Flight Critical Systems*
The F-22 Raptor was built with better reliability and maintainability than any military fighter in history. This helps ensure operational flexibility into the future. Maintainers were included early in the design process for the F-22 and they quickly established a strong foothold. To improve maintenance turnaround, the maintainers insisted on extensive self diagnostics and built-in testing capability for the various subsystems. As a result, virtually every piece of hardware in the aircraft either does its own health checks or reports when it has failed. There are more than 15,000 fault reports that can be made on the basic engine and airframe and another 15,000 fault reports available for the avionics. Most of these are low-level fault reports that do not result in warnings, cautions or advisories to the pilot or degrade the operation of the F-22. It was reasoned that if the airplane knew so much about itself, then that capability could be leveraged to help the maintainer and the pilot. This increased reliability and maintainability pays off in dollars, because it will require less manpower to fix the aircraft and consequently less airlift is required to support a deployed squadron. Additionally, reduced maintenance support provides the benefit of reduced life-cycle cost and the ability to operate more efficiently from prepared or dispersed operating locations.

*Vehicle Management System (VMS)*

The Vehicle Management System (VMS) provides integrated flight and propulsion control.

The VMS enables the pilot to aggressively and safely maneuver the F-22 to its maximum capabilities.

The system includes hardware, such as the control stick, throttle, rudder pedals and actuators, air data probes, accelerometers, leading edge flap drive actuators, and the primary flight control actuators. The VMS also encompasses the software that controls these devices.

The VMS will be operational when the aircraft is flown for the first time in May 1997.

The flight control software and flight control laws that underpin the VMS are tested in a specialized laboratory at LM Aero-Fort Worth, Texas.

The VMS Integration Facility, or VIF, as this lab is called, consists of an F-22 cockpit and flightworthy F-22 hardware and software. The VIF has been operational since March 1995.

*Utilities and Subsystems (U&S)*

The utilities and subsystems (U&S) for the F-22 includes these subsystems:


Integrated Vehicle Subsystem Controller
Environmental Control System
Fire Protection
Auxiliary Power Generation System (APGS)
Landing Gear
Fuel System
Electrical System
Hydraulics
Arresting System
*Integrated Vehicle Subsystem Controller (IVSC)*

The Integrated Vehicle Subsystem Controller (IVSC) is the system responsible for aircraft integration, control and diagnostics.

*Environmental Control System*

The F-22 uses a totally integrated environmental control system (ECS) that provides thermal conditioning throughout the flight envelope for the pilot and the avionics.

The five basic safety critical functions the ECS must take care of include: avionics cooling; adequate air to the pilot; canopy defog; cockpit pressurization; and fire protection.

*Air Cycle System*

The air cycle system takes bleed air from engines (which comes in to the system at between 1,200-to-2,000 degrees Fahrenheit) and cools it down in the Primary Heat Exchanger (PHX) to approximately 400 degrees. From the heat exchanger, the air is fed into the air cycle refrigeration package (ACRP). The air must be dry, so the system also includes water extractors.

The air, when it comes out of the ACRP, is now chilled to approximately 50 degrees Fahrenheit. The flight-critical equipment, the systems that are for keeping the aircraft -flying, are cooled by this air. This air is also fed into the Normalair-Garrett-built On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) to provide breathable oxygen to the pilot, to operate the Breathing Regulator/Anti-G (BRAG) valve on the pilot's ensemble, to provide canopy defogging, and cockpit pressurization.

*Liquid Cooling System*

Unlike other fighter aircraft, the F-22 uses liquid cooling, rather than air cooling for the mission avionics. The F-22 is breaking ground in liquid cooling and the environment in which it works. Resistance to high temperature and durability were the driving factors in the liquid cooling design. AlliedSignal is the primary supplier of the liquid cooling equipment.

The closed-loop liquid cooling system is divided into two loops, one forward and one aft. These systems use brushless, DC current motor pumps that are connected for redundancy. Polyalphaolefin (PAO) is the medium used in the liquid cooling system.

The forward loop is for cooling the Mission Critical Avionics and keep them at a comfortable (for them) 68 degrees F. The PAO passes through the Vapor Cycle System and a filter and is routed to the Avionics and then out to the wings to cool the embedded sensors.

From there, the now-warm PAO coolant enters the aft loop, which allows it to pass by the air cycle machine, which cools that system by receiving transferred heat. The PAO then is routed to the fuel tanks, where the heat is dumped. No coolant gets mixed with the fuel however, as this is a closed-loop cooling system. The fuel in the tank is only used as a heat sink.

*Thermal Management System (TMS)*

The Thermal Management System (TMS) is used to keep the fuel cool. The Air Cooled Fuel Cooler (ACFC) takes air from the boundary layer diverter between the inlet and the aircraft's forward fuselage. Hot fuel passes through the heat exchanger and is colled. Greatly simplified, this is essentially blowing on hot soup to cool it down enough to eat it.

*Fire Protection*

Fire protection is provided for the aircraft's engine bays, the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU), and for dry bays, such as the landing gear wells, the side-of-body cavities, the Linear Linkless Ammunition Handling System (LLAHS), the On-Board Inert Gas Generation System (OBIGGS), left and right ACFCs, and ECS bay.

The aircraft uses infrared and ultraviolet sensor for fire detection and Halon 1301 for fire suppression. The Halon 1301 is the only ozone-depleting chemical on the F-22, and efforts are underway to find a replacement suppressing chemical. Space provisions have already been included for this new agent up to a chemical that requires 2.5 times the volume of the Halon.

*Auxiliary Power Generation System (APGS)*

The Auxiliary Power Generation System (APGS) for the F-22 is being developed, built, and tested by Allied Signal Aerospace for Boeing. The APGS consists of an auxiliary power unit (APU), and a self-contained Stored Energy System (SES).

The APGS provides secondary aircraft power for everyday main engine ground start, aircraft ground maintenance, and in-flight emergency power for aircraft recovery. The APGS uses the G-250 APU, a 450 hp turbine engine that utilizes state-of-the-art materials and design resulting in the highest power density APU in the industry (horsepower-to-weight).

*Landing Gear*

The F-22 utilizes tricycle landing gear, with the standard two main gears (each with a single tire) and a single-wheel, steerable nose landing gear assembly. The nose gear retracts forward, and main gear retracts outward.

The landing gear assemblies utilize AirMet 100, which provides greater strength and corrosion protection and are made by Menasco. The main gear uses a dual-piston design and are sized not to withstand a collapsed gear or flat tire landing.

The aircraft's AlliedSignal-made carbon brakes are always in anti-skid mode, which means the pilot has one less thing to remember to activate. The pilot applies pressure on the brakes by using the rudder pedals, but only after the F-22's weight-on-wheels sensor engages upon landing.

The nosewheel is a direct drive system, that is hydraulic force is applied to the nosewheel pivot to turn it. The nose gear is mechanically driven to align itself correctly before retraction.

As a safety precaution, the nosewheel clamshell doors and the lower inboard landing gear doors are physically linked to the landing gear itself. If an emergency blowdown is required, the doors will open when the gear comes down. Also, the gear down and locked indicators in the cockpit are battery operated, so if all other systems malfunction, the pilot still has a way of knowing whether his landing gear is down.

The tires on the F-22 are Michelin Air-X steel belted radials. Goodyear Bias-ply tires will also be qualified for the aircraft.

*Fuel System*

There are eight fuel tanks on the F-22, including one (designated F-1) in the forward fuselage behind the pilot's ejection seat. The others are located in the fuselage and the wings. The F-22 will run on JP-8, a naphthalene-based fuel with a relatively high flash point.

The F-22 has single-point ground fueling, and it can be refueled without the need for ground power. It also has a Xar-built air refueling receptacle on the top side of the aircraft in the mid fuselage directly behind the cockpit. It is covered by two butterfly doors that have integral low-voltage lights to aid in night refueling.

The F-22 also has an On-Board Inert Gas Generation System (OBIGGS) that inerts the fuel tanks as the fuel is depleted. Fuel in itself is not as explosive as the fumes are. By filling the tanks with inert nitrogen as the fuel is used, the fumes are suppressed, and the chance of explosion, such would occur if the fuel tanks were hit by gunfire, is nearly eliminated.

*Electrical, Hydraulic, and Arresting Systems*

The F-22 uses a Smiths Industries 270 volt, direct current (DC) electrical system. It uses two 65 kilowatt generators. The hydraulic system includes four 72 gallon-per-minute pumps and two independent 4,000 psi systems.

The F-22 has an arresting hook in an enclosed fairing between the engines on the underside of the aircraft. This hook is deployed in an emergency to stop the aircraft by means of hooking on to a wire strung out across the end of a runway. These barrier engagements work very similar to the arresting gear of an aircraft carrier.

While the F-22 has an arresting hook, it cannot land on an aircraft carrier, as the F-22 does not have the heavier structure necessary to withstand the stresses of a carrier landing. The shape of the arresting hook is not compatible with low observable design, and that is why the fairing and doors are required.

F-22 Flight Critical Systems

*F-22 Raptor Support System*
The F-22 is more reliable than the aircraft it will replace, and it requires significantly less support resources than the F-15 while providing unequaled operational capability. It will be a true force multiplier.

From the outset, the F-22 was designed for supportability and self-sufficiency, with reduced logistics costs. The improvements designed into the F-22 are predicted to save more than 50% of the operations and support costs of the F-15 over a 20-year period.

Unlike in past programs, where supportability was almost an afterthought in the design process, on the F-22, maintainers worked with designers and manufacturing representatives to ensure that a part or system was designed correctly, could be manufactured, and could be maintained while that part or system was still on the drawing board.

As two examples, the slings used to hoist the canopy into position on the assembly line is the exact same sling design that will be used in the field. The same sling used to place the wing leading edge flap is also be used to hoist the flaps and flaperons.

The F-22 will provide significantly more sorties each day than current fighters. It can be flown on twice as many consecutive sorties, will be twice as reliable, require 1/2 the direct maintenance man-hours per flight hour, and 2/3 the turnaround time for its next combat sortie as the F-15C. Also, a 24-aircraft F-22 squadron will require less than 1/2 the C-141 airlift support to deploy for 30 days than is presently required by a comparable F-15 unit (about 7.8 C-141 loads to deploy an F-22 squadron versus the 16 C-141 loads for an F-15C).

Additionally, to deploy an F-22 unit, there will be fewer shops required (such as wheel and tires, ejection seat, and pilot equipment), and reduced spares as well.

*Design Features*

There are five key design features that makes the F-22 more supportable than any previous fighter: access/maintainability; fault detection and isolation; self sufficiency; improved combat turn; and high reliability.

Access/Maintainability: The bottom of the F-22 sits only 36 inches off the ground, allowing maintainers to have shoulder-height access (or lower) to nearly every component or system ( such as avionics racks, engines, airframe mounted accessory drive system (AMAD), and weapons) without the use of ladders or workstands. In addition, the aircraft's modular avionics allow the maintainer to pull out a non-functioning module and plug in another in rapidly.

Fault Detection and Isolation: There is an extensive Built-In Test (BIT) capability inherent in the F-22. In fact there is so much capability that the diagnostics system can go down to the Line Replaceable Module (LRM - the individual electronics cards - level to determine faults. There are also built-in test sensors; fault filtering, that is, the system determines whether a fault is significant enough for the pilot to receive a Caution or Warning in the cockpit; a significant failure data recording, to allow maintainers to know exactly when a part failed.

Self-Sufficiency: The F-22's On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) provides breathable air to the pilot, so there is no need for ground-based liquid oxygen (LOX) equipment; likewise, the F-22 has an On-Board Inert Gas Generating System (OBIGGS) that is used to fill the fuel tanks with nitrogen as a safety measure as the fuel is depleted on a flight; the aircraft has an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU), so there is no need for a ground power cart; and as much 'housekeeping' as possible has been eliminated - for instance, it only takes four simple steps to take the aircraft from cold metal to engines running.

Integrated Combat Turn: The Integrated Combat Turn (ICT) is the military equivalent of a pit stop in auto racing - the aircraft is refueled, rearmed, and sent back into combat. The F-22 allows for simultaneous gun ammunition and missile reloading, a process that normally goes in sequence only. The Raptor has single-point refueling and a single-point consumables (oil, chaff, flares, etc.) status check point. It also has pneudrallic extend and retract missile launchers, which means that there are no pyrotechnics to be concerned with while the aircraft is being turned.

Reliability: The F-22's systems are highly reliable, requiring fewer spare parts and less airlift support. The F-22 has fault-tolerant liquid-cooled avionics. When one card fails, the system automatically reconfigures itself. These lower operating temperatures extend avionics life. Also, during development, systems went through comprehensive analysis, development tests, and full-scale tests. These accelerated life tests were more severe and of longer duration than traditional military standard (MIL STD) tests. For example, electronic tests included ten times the number of thermal cycles and ten times the vibration duration at higher vibration levels than MIL STD tests.

*Integrated Maintenance Information System (IMIS)*

The F-22 Integrated Maintenance Information System (IMIS) integrates the Tech Order Data (TOD), maintenance forms, the aircraft itself to provide the maintainer a single source of maintenance information.

There are three main components to the F-22's IMIS: the Portable Maintenance Aid (PMA); the deployable, squadron-level Maintenance Support Cluster (MSC), and its back shop counterpart, the Maintenance Work Station.

*Portable Maintenance Aid (PMA)*

The Portable Maintenance Aid (PMA) is a ruggedized computer that a maintainer will take out to the aircraft. It serves as the primary maintenance interface with the aircraft and its systems. The PMA displays Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals (IETMs), has the capability to order parts, and supports the recording of maintenance actions in maintenance forms.

The PMA, built by AlliedSignal, weighs 9.85 pounds, is fully sunlight readable, and runs on nickel-metal hydride batteries. It has a keypad and function keys to support data entry.

One of the biggest advances the PMA offers to the F-22 maintainer is the use of IETMs that display on the IMIS equipment. IETMs are a set of detailed instructions that tell the maintainer how to inspect, troubleshoot, and replace a component. These instructions are interactive, and offer the user "branches" of information depending on situations that may be encountered during the maintenance action. IETM graphics are taken from the three-dimensional computer database used to design the aircraft. The graphics are translated to a simplified two-dimensional drawing for ease of use and technical clarity. IETMs displayed on IMIS eliminate the cumbersome paper-and-paper change process in use today that often results in big-city sized phone books on flightlines.

Approximately 3,200 of these packets have been written already, and this represents only about 20% of the total to be written before the aircraft is operational.

The PMA works like this. The maintainer goes out to the aircraft and plugs the PMA into a data port on the aircraft (located in the wheel wells and cockpit) that will accept commands. The maintainer can first use the PMA to stimulate a system to perform a BIT check to verify a failure. If the maintenance instructions call for opening the weapons bay doors, for instance, the PMA allows the maintainer to open the door without having to get in the cockpit.

As this is an electronic system, the PMA has been updated with the latest TOD, and it displays only those instructions. At the aircraft, the maintainer can scroll through and look at the entire task before going back and checking off the individual steps.

If there are questions, the graphics in the PMA will let the maintainer zoom in on a specific part or pan out to see the entire system. If the action requires parts, a message can be sent back to maintenance control and the part is ready once the maintainer gets back. He then heads out to the flightline and replaces the part. Once the maintenance action is complete, the PMA records it, and sends the information back to maintenance control. Other data such as failures, parts usage, and consumables data can also be sent via the PMA.

The PMA can also be used to load Operational Flight Plan (OFP) software into the aircraft through another data port on the aircraft. In fact, the first software loaded on to the first F-22 while it was in final assembly was done through the PMA.

*Maintenance Support Cluster (MSC)/Maintenance Work Station (MWS)*

The Maintenance Support Cluster (MSC) and the Maintenance Work Station (MWS) are both computer packages that are the center of the IMIS. The two systems use the same basic commercially available components, but the MSC is packaged in rugged containers so that it can be deployed. These containers also offer the computer hardware protection against out-of-the normal hangar environments. The MWS system will remain at the main operating base.

The basic functions of the MSC include:

Analyzing Diagnostic Data: When a pilot returns from a mission, the data transfer cartridge (DTC) in the cockpit is removed and brought to maintenance. If any failures occurred on the mission, those fault codes are noted on the DTC and that data is downloaded into the MSC computer. The cause of the failure is identified, and a course of recommended corrective action is taken.

Prepare for the Task: The maintenance task is scheduled, resources (parts, etc.) are identified, instructions for that task are reviewed and checked for currency, and then a PMA is loaded with the instructions so the maintainer can take the PMA out to the flightline and complete the task.

Collect Maintenance Data: The data collected - what is failing on the aircraft, how long it is taking to repair the aircraft, parts usage, etc. - is all collected and is used to generate reports and summaries. A basic tenet of the F-22 support system is to collect the data once and then reuse it as much as possible.

Support Maintenance Planning and Analysis: The data collected is also used in planning, as it is used to schedule inspections and to schedule time change maintenance.

F-22 Support System

*F-22 Raptor Materials and Processes*
Validating structural materials is especially important to the F-22 because new material technologies were incorporated to maximize aircraft performance. The overall percentage of composites in the F-22 (approximately 25%) is historically high, though not unprecedented. However, the extensive application of Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) technology and high temperature bismaleimide (BMI) composite materials directly resulted in the high weight/performance efficiency the Raptor demonstrates. The use of metallics technologies such as titanium Hot Isostatic Pressed (HIP) castings and electron beam welding allowed the airframe designers to incorporate complex features into a single component without the weight of fastened assemblies. The continuing challenge is to reduce material and component costs through a constant reassessment of emerging technologies. Recently developed machining technologies, for instance, have allowed the inlet canted frame lip to be changed from a casting to a lower cost machined component with no appreciable weight penalty.

Traditional aircraft materials such as aluminum and steel make up about 1/5 of the F-22's structure by weight. The high performance capabilities of the F-22 requires the significant use of titanium (42 % of all structural materials by weight) and composite materials (24 % by weight), which are both stronger and lighter weight than traditional materials, and offer better protection against corrosion. Titanium also offers higher temperature resistance.

*Airframe Structural Materials By Weight.*

* (Current F-22 Weight Distribution)*



Titanium 64 (Ti-64) 36%
Thermoset Composites 24%
Aluminum (Al) 16%
Other Materials* 15%
Steel 6%
Titanium 62222 (Ti-62222) 3%
Thermoplastic Composites >1%



* _Other materials include coatings, paint, transparency, integrated forebody (radome), tires, brakes, sealants, adhesives, seals, actuators, gases, and fluids._

The types of titanium are different alloys and have different applications on the F-22. Ti-62222 is a very high-strength alloy that was introduced on the F-22.

On the F-22, the number of parts made from thermoset composites is approximately a 50/50 split between epoxy resin parts and bismaleimide (BMI) parts. The aircraft's exterior skins are all BMI, which offer high strength and high temperature resistance.

Thermoplastic composites are also highly durable materials but, unlike thermosets, thermoplastics can be reheated and re-formed. Thermoplastics proved more expensive and more difficult to incorporate in the F-22 than had been hoped in the early days of the program.

Thermoplastics are being used on the F-22 for items such as landing gear and weapons bay doors (which are opened frequently), where impact damage tolerance (to things such as small rocks that are kicked up from the runway, etc.) is required.

The Airmet 100 steel alloy used in the F-22's main landing gear is another innovation. It is one of the first applications of a special heat treatment of steel, which provides greater corrosion protection to the main gear piston axle.

*Hot Isostatic Pressing (HIP) Casting*

Hot Isostatic Pressing (HIP) casting is a process where metallic castings are subjected to very high temperatures in a static pressure environment (more than 10,000 pounds per square inch). The effect is to collapse, or "heal", voids (gas pockets) that otherwise may be present. On the F-22, structural titanium castings are HIP'ed to eliminate any voids that are present from the casting process.

HIP casting is used on six large structures on the F-22: the rudder actuator housing (one for each rudder), the canopy deck, the wing side-of-body (SOB) forward and aft fittings (four total, two for each wing), the aileron strongback (one for each aileron, two total), and the inlet canted frame (one each for the left and right inlets).

Resin Transfer Molding (RTM)

*Resin Transfer Molding (RTM)*

The F-22 is the first aircraft to take advantage of Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) of composite parts. RTM is a method of composite parts fabrication well suited to economically fabricating complex shaped details repeatedly to tight dimensional tolerances.

Large composite parts traditionally are formed by applying and pressurizing hundreds of layers of fabric that contain a pre-embedded resin, and curing, or 'baking,' them in an autoclave. This is a very time consuming and labor intensive process.

The process employs fibrous "preforms" that are formed under vacuum from stacks of fabric and placed in metal tooling that matches the shape of the part. The tool is then injected with heated resin under pressure. The benefit of the matched metal tooling to RTM is a high level of part reproducibility, consistency in assembly operations, and consequently, economies of scale.

RTM is used to fabricate more than 400 parts for the F-22's structure ranging from inlet lip edges to load-bearing sine-wave spars in the fighter's wings. At Boeing, RTM has reduced the cost of wing spars by 20 percent and has cut in half the number of reinforcement parts needed for installing the spars in the wings. Both BMI and epoxy parts are fabricated using RTM.

*Composite Pivot Shaft (CPS)*

The composite pivot shaft is an application of Automated Fiber Placement (AFP) technology, employed with unique tooling approaches to incorporate a composite structure in place of a titanium one in a flight-critical application - the F-22's horizontal stabilizers.

AFP technology makes possible the exact fiber positioning required to achieve the complex geometry of the pivot shaft, which is a 10-inch diameter cylinder at one end; and a rectangular spar at the other approximately four inches wide; with a offset in the transition area. Its shape can be likened to that of an oversized hockey stick.

Alliant Techsystems is the contractor for the composite pivot shaft, which is laid out using computerized fiber placement machines. The pivot shaft is composed of more than 400 plys (layers) of composite tow tapes ranging from 1/8 of an inch wide to 1/2 inch wide.

The shaft is cured in stages to prevent internal cracking and no wrinkles, as there is no allowances for voids in the shaft. After layup, the shafts are nondestructively inspected and tested.

The composite pivot shafts take up to 60 days to produce, but they save 90 pounds per shipset (two shafts) over titanium, which is an extremely large amount of weight to take out of an aircraft at one time. Also, because of the high temperatures in the engine bay area of the fighter, it is constructed mostly of titanium, and any weight is difficult to engineer out of that area.

When the first F-22 was rolled out in April 1997, four shipsets of flightworthy composite pivot shafts had already been produced. A plan is in place to use thicker tow tapes, which should greatly reduce production time for the shafts.

*Electron Beam (EB) Welding*

An automated process called electron beam (EB) welding is helping Boeing and Aerojet, its supplier, build lighter-weight titanium assemblies for the aft fuselage. EB welding takes place in a vacuum chamber and uses a stream of electrons to weld titanium parts together.

Performing the welding in a vacuum prevents exposure to oxygen, which can create an undesirable brittle surface during the process. Electron beam welding is able to weld thick titanium parts (i.e., more than an inch) considerably better than other methods.

Electron beam welding reduces the need for fasteners in some fuselage components by up to 75%, which reduces weight, simplifies the assembly process, and avoids the costs associated with fasteners. The reduction in the number of fasteners also means fewer openings for possible fuel leaks.

*F-22 HAZARDOUS MATERIALS (HAZMAT) PROGRAM*


*General Description*

The F-22 is one of the first weapons development programs to incorporate contractual requirements for hazardous materials (HAZMAT) use and pollution prevention in manufacture, operation, maintenance, support, and disposal over the life cycle of the weapon system.

*Processes*

The F-22 Weapon System Hazardous Materials Analysis Report (WSHMAR) was developed to provide a basis of understanding between the contractors and the Air Force to ensure that adequate consideration was and continues to be given to the elimination, minimization, and mitigation of hazardous materials, as well as environmental, safety, and health (ESH) concerns and the compliance of hazardous materials.

The F-22 HAZMAT Program approach consists of these processes:

Identification and Tracking: Hazardous materials are identified and selected hazardous materials are targeted for elimination, minimization, or mitigation efforts.

Materials Evaluation and Materials Decision: Hazardous materials selected for use by the various Integrated Product Teams (IPTs) are first evaluated through the HAZMAT Program (which included coordination with Materials & Processes and Corrosion Control) before inclusion, and the use of these materials is continuously monitored.

Reporting and Documentation: Hazardous materials data is collected and recorded.

Information Dissemination: Hazardous materials emergency, disposal, handling, storage, repair, and transportation information is collected and reported.

Included in the Hazardous Materials Database (HMDB) is information on materials delivered as part of the F-22 weapons system (which includes the air vehicle, training system, and support system) and end items that create a hazard in post-delivery operations and/or are disposed of as hazardous waste, as well as materials used in operation, maintenance, and support of the entire weapons system.

Once it is determined which HAZMAT materials will be used on the F-22, mitigation factors are introduced into design and maintenance procedures to reduce exposure risk and maintain the risk at an acceptable level.

*Successes*

The HAZMAT program has been very successful, eliminating or greatly minimizing a significant number of hazardous materials on the F-22.

Ozone Depleting Substances: All ozone depleting substances except one has been eliminated. The remaining substance, Halon 1301, is used in the aircraft's fire protection system. The Air Force is working on finding an acceptable substitute for this substance.

Cadmium: Cadmium, a material long used for corrosion protection, is being minimized on the F-22's landing gear. There is a small amount on the gear now, and by the time the tenth aircraft (the first production aircraft) is built, cadmium will be significantly reduced.

Other Substances: Other substances such as Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) and isocyanates (used in the aircraft's topcoats) have been greatly reduced, as has chrome (used in sealants). Work continues on minimizing methyl ethyl ketone (used in wipe solvents) and methylene dianiline (used in adhesives).

F-22 Materials and Processes


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## ptltejas

*F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Lightning II*
*Design*
The design challenge of JSF is to find a way to develop a family of airplanes and attain economies of commonality and scale that drive down the costs of each airplane. The objective is to make the airplanes for about half of what today's airplanes cost. The F-35 is designed to accommodate growth in both mission and technology. Possible future versions of the aircraft include an electronic-attack variant, an uninhabited version, and an F-35 that incorporates a laser weapon.

The main advantages of the F-35 over the F-22 are that it carry a larger internal payload (2x 1,000 lbs vs 2x 2,000 lbs for F-35), and that it is far less expensive. But the F-35 does not have supercruise, it does not have thrust-vectoring, and it is not as stealthy as the F-22.

A number of the systems for JSF are taken right out of the F-22, then modified and improved. These modifications and improvements will eventually come back and upgrade the F-22. The contractors did not invest a lot of money to develop new systems, but rather put the new technologies of stealth and the integrated avionics that are in F/A-22, into the JSF.

On 27 June 2002, the F-35 program achieved its first major technical milestone, on schedule and under budget, when engineers finalized the external lines of the aircraft. The resulting "lines freeze" configuration is nearly indistinguishable from that of the X-35 JSF demonstrators that underwent flight testing in 2000 and 2001. Design changes, though small, will bring overall performance gains to the stealthy fighter. The design had been evolving incrementally since the configuration that flew as the X-35 demonstrator.

Finalized changes included extending the forward fuselage by five inches to better accommodate avionics and sensors, and moving the horizontal tail rearward by two inches to maintain stability-and-control with the newly extended forward fuselage. The freeze raising by about one inch the top surface of the aircraft along the centerline, thus increasing fuel capacity by 300 pounds and extending range. It added slightly more twist to the wing camber on the CV variant to improve both handling qualities and transonic performance, and slightly adjusting the positioning of the vertical tails to improve aerodynamic performance. Earlier in the design phase, engineers also reduced the length of the engine's inlet ducts, thereby saving weight and improving performance.

The Strategy Integration team supports the Joint Strike Fighter Program Office with long-range planning for major capability upgrades such as Block 4 and beyond. While Block 4 is targeted for possible authorization in the 2009-2010 period, these plans typically look into the future 10 to 20 years. This is driven by the long acquisition process associated with the planning, budgeting, contracting, development and production/retrofit incorporation of a given upgrade.

Lockheed Martin and its partners Northrop Grumman and BAE SYSTEMS are also assessing F-35 derivative concepts such as a two-seat variant and an electronic- attack variant. This long-term planning is focused on making certain the F-35 is always the system of choice to satisfy customers' changing needs.

*Low Observability*
An integrated airframe design, advanced materials and an axisymmetric nozzle maximize the F-35's stealth features. A quick look at the aircraft reveals an adherence to fundamental shaping principles of a stealthy design. The leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called planform alignment). The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The canopy seam and bay doors are sawtoothed. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct. The inlet itself has no boundary layer diverter channel, the space between the duct and the fuselage, to reflect radar energy. And, of course, weapons can be carried internally. Each internal bay contains two hardpoints onto which a wide variety of bombs and missiles can be attached.

According to November 2005 reports, the US Air Force states that the F-22 has the lowest RCS of any manned aircraft in the USAF inventory, with a frontal RCS of 0.0001~0.0002 m2, marble sized in frontal aspect. According to these reports, the F-35 is said to have an RCS equal to a metal golf ball, about 0.0015m2, which is about 5 to 10 times greater than the minimal frontal RCS of F/A-22. The F-35 has a lower RCS than the F-117 and is comparable to the B-2, which was half that of the older F-117. Other reports claim that the F-35 is said to have an smaller RCS headon than the F-22, but from all other angles the F-35 RCS is greater. By comparison, the RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2.

Much has been improved between the design of the F-22 and the F-35. The F-35 doors for landing gear and equipment, as well as control surface, all have straight lines. The F-35 does not require "saw tooth" openings to divert RF energy. One reason the openings on the F-35 are straight lines is reported to be embedded electrical wires near the edges whcih interfer with RF signals. The F-35 RAM is thicker, more durable, less expensive and, being manufactured to tighter tolerances compared to that of the F-22. The tighter tolerances means less radar signal can penetrate openings and reflect back to its source. The newer RAM is more effective against lower frequency radars, and maintenance should cost about a tenth that of the F-22 or B-2. Some forms of RAM have have electrical plates or layers within the layers of carbon composits.

*Multi-Mission Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar*
Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is developing the Multi-Mission Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar for the F-35. This advanced multi-function radar has gone through extensive flight demonstrations during the Concept Demonstration Phase (CDP). The radar will enable the F-35 JSF pilot to effectively engage air and ground targets at long range, while also providing outstanding situational awareness for enhanced survivability.

*​ Distributed Aperture System*
In a joint effort with Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems will provide key electronic sensors for the F-35, which includes spearheading the work on the Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS). This system will provide pilots with a unique protective sphere around the aircraft for enhanced situational awareness, missile warning, aircraft warning, day/night pilot vision, and fire control capability. Designated the AN/AAQ-37, and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS will enhance the F-35's survivability and operational effectiveness by warning the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats, providing day/night vision and supporting the navigation function of the F-35's forward-looking infrared sensor.

*Electro-Optical Targeting System*
*​* Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control and Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems are jointly providing key electronic sensors for the F-35 to include the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS). The internally mounted EOTS will provide extended range detection and precision targeting against ground targets, plus long range detection of air-to-air threats.

The Electro-Optical Targeting System is an affordable, high-performance, lightweight, multi-functional system for precision air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting. The low-drag, stealthy EOTS is integrated into the Joint Strike Fighter's fuselage with a durable sapphire window and is linked to the aircraft's integrated central computer through a high-speed fiber-optic interface.

The EOTS uses a staring midwave 3rd generation FLIR that provides superior target detection and identification at greatly increased standoff ranges. EOTS also provides high-resolution imagery, automatic tracking, infrared-search-and-track, laser designation and rangefinding, and laser spot tracking. Sharing a Sniper legacy, it provides high reliability and efficient two-level maintenance.

Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control is teamed with Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems to produce the JSFTM Electro-Optical Sensor System (EOSS). The EOSS consists of the EOTS, led by Lockheed Martin with BAE SYSTEMS, and the Distributed Aperture System, which provides 360-degree situational awareness, led by Northrop Grumman. A cornerstone of future defense capability for the U.S. and its allies, the EOSS supports situational awareness, target recognition, and precision weapon delivery.



*​ Helmet Mounted Display System*
Unlike the cockpit design of current-generation fighter aircraft, the F-35's does not include a head-up display. Rather, the information normally visible on such a display is instead projected on the pilot's helmet visor. Vision Systems International, LLC (VSI) is developing the most advanced and capable Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS) for the F-35. Utilizing extensive design experience gained on successful production Helmet Mounted Displays (HMD), the F-35 HMDS will replace the traditional Head-Up-Display (HUD) while offering true sensor fusion.

*Integrated Communications, Navigation and Identification Avionics*
Northrop Grumman Space Technology's integrated avionics satisfy the requirements for greatly increased functionalities within extreme space and weight limitations via modular hardware that could be dynamically programmed to reconfigure for multiple functions. This "smart"-box approach delivers increased performance, quicker deployment, higher availability, enhanced scalability and lower life cycle costs.

*Interoperability*
The F-35 will have the most robust communications suite of any fighter aircraft built to date. The F-35 will be the first fighter to possess a satellite communications capability that integrates beyond line of sight communications throughout the spectrum of missions it is tasked to perform. The F-35 will contain the most modern tactical datalinks which will provide the sharing of data among its flight members as well as other airborne, surface and ground-based platforms required to perform assigned missions. The commitment of JSF partner nations to common communications capabilities and web-enabled logistics support will enable a new level of coalition interoperability. These capabilities allow the F-35 to lead the defense community in the migration to the net-centric warfighting force of the future.

*Multi-Function Display System*
Rockwell Collins's 8"x20" Multi-Function Display System (MFDS) will be the panoramic projection display for the F-35. MFDS employs leading edge technology in projection engine architecture, video, compression, illumination module controls and processing memory – all of which will make the MFDS the most advanced tactical display. One-gigabyte-per-second data interfaces will enable the MFDS to display six full motion images simultaneously. The adaptable layout will be easily reconfigurable for different missions or mission segments. Projection display technology will provide a high-luminance, high-contrast, and high-resolution picture with no viewing angle effect.

*​ Sophisticated Cockpit*
The cockpit features a large eight-inch by 20-inch color display, providing tactical information as well as aircraft system data. A next-generation voice-command system allows the pilot to manage systems without manual input. Tasks such as changing radio channels are accomplished simply by speaking a command. The pilot also has the option to manipulate the displays by touching the screen or by using a yoke-mounted cursor. F-16 pilots, themselves accustomed to a superb pilot-vehicle interface, drop their jaws when they see the JSF's cockpit. It is completely night-vision capable. It offers exceptional lookdown angle over the canopy rail and an excellent field of view over the aircraft's nose. The F-35 provides its pilot with unsurpassed situational awareness, positive target identification and precision strike under any weather condition. Mission systems integration and outstanding over-the-nose visibility features are designed to dramatically enhance pilot performance.
*​ Weapons Integration*
The F-35 will employ a variety of US and allied weapons. From JDAMs to Sidewinders to the UK Storm Shadow, the F-35 has been designed to carry either internally or externally a large array of weapons. Seven external stations provide an assortment of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons including the full range of "smart" munitions. These external stations include one centerline hardpoint, and outer hardpoints for air-to-air missiles. Two internal weapons bays are each capable of carrying (1) 2000lb class weapon and (1) AMRAAM per bay. The F-35 weapons bay accommodates a variety of internally carried ordnance that ground crews can easily load. The weapons include air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-120 and AIM-132 air-to-air missiles, and "smart," GPS-guided munitions such as 1000-lb., and 2000-lb., versions of the joint direct attack munitions. The missles are mounted directly on the inside of the weapons bay door. When the door opens the AMRAAM enters in the airstream. While this works for the AMRAAM, most versions of the Sidewinder need to have the missle in the airstreme before lock. The F-22 provides for this with an ejection system for the missile, but the F-35 doesnt have this, and this may create problems qualifying the AIM-9X to fire from inside the bay. Most air-to-surface weapons are in the 2,000 lb (910 kg) class, however, but these weapons are usually around 12.5 to 14 ft (3.80 to 4.25 m) long and too large to fit within the F-22. Bearing these limitations in mind, JSF designers purposefully sized the two internal bays around these larger 2,000 lb class weapons. The two weapons that have predominantly dictated the overall length and depth of the bays are the AGM-154 JSOW and the GBU-31 2,000 lb (910 kg) version of JDAM. The larger internal weapons bay configuration was a result of the natural frame vault height proportions generated to get a 2,000lb munition inside the airframe. Other items like the JSOW and other "14 footer" (LGB GCS) class munitions were a secondary capability outcome derived from the geometry of the deeper (25" vice 18") carriage box. The internal bays of the F-35B STOVL variant were redesigned in late 2004 and are now shorter and reduced in width, compared to the F-35A CTOL model. This was done to reduce the weight of the F-35B to meet other more important performance goals. As a result, the F-35B is no longer compatible with JSOW and 2,000-lb JDAM weapons. The largest weapon this F-35 variant can carry internally is the GBU-32 1,000-lb version of JDAM.

*Robust Structure*
Continuous tailhook-to-nose-gear structure and catapult-compatible nose gear launch system are strengthened for catapult and arresting loads. Engineers are exploiting the relationship between designing and manufacturing to further reduce cost. The aircraft's wingbox, for example, carries through the fuselage and integrates the wing and fuselage into one piece. By eliminating the side-of-body joint between these traditionally independent components, the design reduces much of the structure, weight and assembly typically associated with this interface.



*Diverterless Inlet*
*​* The F-35's diverterless inlet lightens the overall weight of the aircraft. Tactical aircraft pose a formidable challenge for inlet designers. A fighter inlet must provide an engine with high-quality airflow over a wide range of speeds, altitudes, and maneuvering conditions while accommodating the full range of engine airflow from idle to maximum military or afterburning power. Historically, inlet complexity is a function of top speed for fighter aircraft. Higher Mach numbers require more sophisticated devices for compressing supersonic airflow to slow it down to subsonic levels before it reaches the face of the engine. Inlet designs for fighter aircraft must also account for the boundary layer of low-energy air that forms on the surface of the fuselage at subsonic and supersonic speeds. The on the Joint Strike Fighter performs miracles that only aeronautical engineers can fully appreciate. At high aircraft speeds through supersonic, the fuselage bumps at each inlet work with forward-swept inlet cowls to redirect unwanted boundary layer airflow away from the inlets, essentially doing the job of heavier, more complex, and more costly approaches used by current fighters. The diverterless inlet eliminates all moving parts.

*Autonomic Logistics (AL)*
Because logistics support accounts for two-thirds of an aircraft's life cycle cost, the F-35 will achieve unprecedented levels of reliability and maintainability, combined with a highly responsive support and training system linked with the latest in information technology. The aircraft will be ready to fight anytime and anyplace. Autonomic Logistics (AL) is a seamless, embedded solution that integrates current performance, operational parameters, current configuration, scheduled upgrades and maintenance, component history, predictive diagnostics (prognostics) and health management, and service support for the F-35. Essentially, AL does invaluable and efficient behind-the-scenes monitoring, maintenance and prognostics to support the aircraft and ensure its continued good health.

The F-35 is designed to reduce operational and support costs significantly by increasing reliability and reducing required maintenance. Such high reliability will enable rapid deployment with minimum support equipment. The cost to operate and maintain the F-35 is expected to be 50 percent less than that for the aircraft it is designed to replace. For decades, the concept of repairing new aircraft came only after the aircraft was built. Then, it had to conform to an existing logistics structure. But the F-35's logistics system has to be up and running before the first aircraft is flown.

The autonomic logistics system, as the F-35 system is called, will monitor the health of the aircraft systems in flight; downlink that information to the ground; and trigger personnel, equipment, and parts to be pre-positioned for quick turnaround of the aircraft. Ultimately, this automated approach will result in higher sortie-generation rates. Autonomic logistics is also something of a mind reader. Through a system called prognostics and health management, computers use accumulated data to keep track of when a part is predicted to fail. With this aid, maintainers can fix or replace a part before it fails and keep the aircraft ready to fly. Like the rest of the program, the autonomic logistics system is on a fast track. It has to be available to support the air vehicle during operational test and evaluation.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> To Consider that what we need for the AMCA or FGFA I just see one web on which different things regarding F-22 is given, we need something like that for the AMCA. and some new tech too.



The problem is, that we first need a requirement and only then you can see what techs or capabilities are needed. The Americans had the F22, a twin engined heavy class stealth fighter with air superiority as the main aim. The F35 then was developed as the counterpart, single engine, medium class, aimed at strike roles and both should remain the only fighters in the fleets.
In IAF there is no requirement for an AMCA, since all class of fighters, all roles and even all technical capabilities of NG fighters are covered for the next at least 16 years. Which leaves only a requirement for a carrier based stealth fighter and exactly here ADA/DRDO once again make the same mistakes that they did with N-LCA, by not developing a naval fighter and then re-design it with less modifications for shore based operations (if needed).
So the whole plan for the project is flawed right from the begining!


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## ptltejas

sancho said:


> The problem is, that we first need a requirement and only then you can see what techs or capabilities are needed. The Americans had the F22, a twin engined heavy class stealth fighter with air superiority as the main aim. The F35 then was developed as the counterpart, single engine, medium class, aimed at strike roles and both should remain the only fighters in the fleets.
> In IAF there is no requirement for an AMCA, since all class of fighters, all roles and even all technical capabilities of NG fighters are covered for the next at least 16 years. Which leaves only a requirement for a carrier based stealth fighter and exactly here ADA/DRDO once again make the same mistakes that they did with N-LCA, by not developing a naval fighter and then re-design it with less modifications for shore based operations (if needed).
> So the whole plan for the project is flawed right from the begining!



Agreed upon 200+ Rafale +270 + Su-30 + Pak-fa - /fgfa -144 + LCA - 200 = 800
800 + mig-29 50 + Miraj 50 = 900 (6 types) once Air Chief Marcel said that there must be single fighter so no need different kind planes may be due to maintainance other flying and other reasons)

According to you sir what are fighters should be in inventory, with Pak-fa/FGFA

One of my relative in IAF not pilot, said that there must be indian fighter so no need much more worry about supply of parts, and moreover fully reliable, which is not in case of the foreign fighters.

Considering future fighters J-20, J-31 etc, there should be something right choice? Whether LCA is able to do it or not is also question.


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> According to you sir what are fighters should be in inventory, with Pak-fa/FGFA



LCA, Rafale and MKI, but more important than fighters, will be armed drones in future, which is why armed Rustom H and even more so, AURA UCAV have much much more importance for IAF than AMCA would have. They simply would add far more capability, something different or something new, which AMCA just can't. The only difference it brings is, that it's an Indian stealth fighter, rather than an Indo-Russian stealth fighter. But it's not pride that defence India, it's capability!



ptltejas said:


> One of my relative in IAF not pilot, said that there must be indian fighter so no need much more worry about supply of parts, and moreover fully reliable, which is not in case of the foreign fighters.



If he meant that we have to have reliable options that doesn't sanction us, even in war times, then we did everything right with Russian and French fighters. Both countries and their vendors had proven to be reliable partners for India and Indian forces, especially in tough times.
On the other side we have an indigenous fighter, that is powered by a US engine, a country that doesn't has proven to be reliable to us. So it needs to be seen if we really can count on them and how far the US parts will be a burden at the end?




ptltejas said:


> Considering future fighters J-20, J-31 etc, there should be something right choice?



J20 - 5th gen stealth fighter for the air force, on top of J10 and Flanker varients
FGFA - 5th gen stealth fighter for the air force, on top of LCA, Rafale and Flanker varients
J31 - 5th gen stealth fighter for the navy or exports, on top of Flanker varients

=> AMCA - 5th gen stealth fighter for the navy or exports, on top of Mig 29Ks (and not a useless N-LCA project)


We don't have to match their projects, but mainly base ours on our own requirements. However, we should learn from them, how simple and logical developments could be planned and done!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ptltejas

sancho said:


> LCA, Rafale and MKI, but more important than fighters, will be armed drones in future, which is why armed Rustom H and even more so, AURA UCAV have much much more importance for IAF than AMCA would have. They simply would add far more capability, something different or something new, which AMCA just can't. The only difference it brings is, that it's an Indian stealth fighter, rather than an Indo-Russian stealth fighter. But it's not pride that defence India, it's capability!
> 
> 
> 
> If he meant that we have to have reliable options that doesn't sanction us, even in war times, then we did everything right with Russian and French fighters. Both countries and their vendors had proven to be reliable partners for India and Indian forces, especially in tough times.
> On the other side we have an indigenous fighter, that is powered by a US engine, a country that doesn't has proven to be reliable to us. So it needs to be seen if we really can count on them and how far the US parts will be a burden at the end?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J20 - 5th gen stealth fighter for the air force, on top of J10 and Flanker varients
> FGFA - 5th gen stealth fighter for the air force, on top of LCA, Rafale and Flanker varients
> J31 - 5th gen stealth fighter for the navy or exports, on top of Flanker varients
> 
> => AMCA - 5th gen stealth fighter for the navy or exports, on top of Mig 29Ks (and not a useless N-LCA project)
> 
> 
> We don't have to match their projects, but mainly base ours on our own requirements. However, we should learn from them, how simple and logical developments could be planned and done!




Thanks for the real right informative post, recent lost of Hercules C-130, is raise the question, Russia is right but problem is with parts, we need one part for mig fighter and they want to sell bunch of parts. US also said that F-35 would be the last Human fighter for the US air force and they are concentrating on the UAV only, There is need right fightrs I think LCA is lacking in somethin.


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> There is need right fightrs I think LCA is lacking in somethin.



LCA was aimed to be a cost-effective low end fighter with good potential and that's what it is, the only problem is, that it's very late especially the MK2. It also should pave us the way to create a credible indigenous industry for own fighter developments and that's also what we get from it, especially if we keep focusing on it and not just divert attention because ADA/DRDO now wants to go to AMCA, before LCA is even ready and inducted. 
So for our needs, the fighter and the project is still very good and very important, but we have to finish it, that's more important to make it world class or unique. 

AMCA must have other aims, be it operationally or wrt to technological improvement, but for IAF it simply would make sense only around 2030, when we have to start to replace the MKIs. Therefor, developing it as a carrier fighter for all IN carriers and later re-design it for the use in IAF as the MKI replacement (or exports) would make much more sence. That's what the French did with the Rafale, that's what the F18 and F18SH were meant for as well, but somebody has to beat that into ADA / DRDO until they understand that, lets hope the coming DM will do that!

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## Archie

I dont know why we are discussing in such great length about a fighter which is still in the design phase
let AMCA make its first flight, then we can discuss its capability

AMCA is IAF thinking about the future because they know the capability of HAL and ADA

India ordered the LCA design process in 1983-84 when The last of the Mig 21 Entered IAF service
India inducted over 450 Mig 21s between 1963-1984
When LCA MK1 enters service, their will be less than 120 Mig 21 still in service
With the Su30 MKI replacing the bulk of Mig 21/23, and the Squadron strength of IAF declining from 41 sqds in 1991 to 34 Sqds in 2014

IAF might be expecting a Similar Problem in future 
Hence you see the FGFA and the RAFALE being in the picture
India Hopes to induct 148 FGFA and 126 RAFALES in service with options for 64 Rafales being excercised should FGFA be delayed and for 78 FGFA being excercised should AMCA be delayed

As of now Rafales are designated to replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar Sqds
FGFA is supposed to replace 3 Mig29 Sqds and 5 MKI sqds when Su30 Starts retiring in 2030

AMCA is suposed to replace 3 Jaguar Sqds, 3 Mirage Sqds and 2 LCA MK1 sqd


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> The problem is, that we first need a requirement and only then you can see what techs or capabilities are needed. The Americans had the F22, a twin engined heavy class stealth fighter with air superiority as the main aim. The F35 then was developed as the counterpart, single engine, medium class, aimed at strike roles and both should remain the only fighters in the fleets.
> In IAF there is no requirement for an AMCA, since all class of fighters, all roles and even all technical capabilities of NG fighters are covered for the next at least 16 years. Which leaves only a requirement for a carrier based stealth fighter and exactly here ADA/DRDO once again make the same mistakes that they did with N-LCA, by not developing a naval fighter and then re-design it with less modifications for shore based operations (if needed).
> So the whole plan for the project is flawed right from the begining!


Air Force will need a 5th gen Medium class jet with equally good A2A and A2G capabilities, sooner we have one the better. 
Yet I totally agree with you that Navy needs a CATOBAR capable stealth fighter desperately and it should also have sufficient thrust to operate from STOBAR carriers also if required without modifications (when your building it from the scratch then do it right, choosing a fancy design is not important) and they should put this requirement in front of MOD adamantly demanding that this be the primary requirement of the fighter?
Or Maybe they are expecting Russian single-engine PAK-FA to be developed for CATOBAR operations by then (off topic: you heard any news about this one lately?) and purchasing it, whatever just don't buy F-35C, we can't afford that with our Capital Flag-ship.
Although I've just realized that as we have been discussing on MMRCA thread that any alterations in the MMRCA is going to severely effect AMCA and in the worst case scenario if they let-go of the former in favor of LCA, FGFA & AMCA, many developments necessary for AMCA will be very challenging to develop like the IAS last I heard even Russia was having problems developing one for PAK-FA/FGFA.
Also being very optimistic should AMCA receives IOC by 2025 Which weapons according to you would be integrated?



sancho said:


> LCA, Rafale and MKI, but more *important than fighters*, will be armed drones in future,


I'd say we should look to procure a few stealth UCAVs ASAP, probably nEURON, but UCAVs can-not be used to achieve air-superiorty.



sancho said:


> On the other side we have an indigenous fighter, that is powered by a US engine, a country that doesn't has proven to be reliable to us.


Main reason why we need to continue Kaveri disaster. 



sancho said:


> (and not a useless N-LCA project)


Yes there is no need for that project, a simple tech-demo was sufficient but these people seem to be making this a matter of prestige.



ptltejas said:


> There is need right fightrs I think LCA is lacking in somethin


Should we be able to develop LCA to it's full potential, I don't think it will lack anything for the role it is supposed to play in our fleet for next 30+ years.



sancho said:


> but for IAF it simply would make sense only around 2030, when we have to start to replace the MKIs.


AMCA will not replace MKI it'll replace MiG-29smt, M2K5 and few Jags. MKI will be replaced by advanced versions of FGFA.



Archie said:


> When LCA MK1 enters service, their will be less than 120 Mig 21 still in service


LCA MK 1 will enter service this year and there are currently ~250 MiG-21s in service including ~120 Bisons.



Archie said:


> the Squadron strength of IAF declining from 41 sqds in 1991 to 34 Sqds in 2014


I'd like to see the source of this info. The current sanctioned strength of IAF is 39.5 the current squadron strength is much lower and is expected to fall to 28.5 by 2018 even after current measures.



Archie said:


> India Hopes to induct 148 FGFA and 126 RAFALES in service with options for 64 Rafales being excercised should FGFA be delayed and for 78 FGFA being excercised should AMCA be delayed


The most recent statement is for 144 single-seat PAK-FA not FGFA (8 squads haven't read about any follow-on option) also 63 Rafales are optional which will bring fleet strength to 189 Rafales (10.5 squads) which will be exercised whether FGFA is delayed or not.



sancho said:


> lets hope the coming DM will do that!


I don't expect much from M.M.Joshi.


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## IND151

HAL seeks clarity on futuristic projects | idrw.org


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## IND151

furkansayed said:


> Hindustan Aeronautical's Limited (HAL) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will be India's second fifth generation stealth fighter aircraft. The state-of-the art aircraft is planned to be ready by 2025 and is currently under development.
> 
> The aircraft's 1:8 model was unveiled by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of India in Aero India-2013.
> 
> The highly-classified project was conceived by ADA at the behest of Indian Air Force (IAF). The IAF asked ADA to develop to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features.
> 
> In 2010, ADA sought USD 2 billion (approximately Rs. 9,060 crore) for the development of the fighter plane.
> 
> ADA has so far received 100 crore rupees of the total amount and the project will develop to technology demonstrators and seven prototypes with the allotted money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its Powerplant is expected to be GTX Kaveri, with capabilities of thrust vectoring. It is also heard that the Powerplant will provide aircraft with supercruise facility. *The Powerplant will be developed on joint collaboration with France*.
> 
> The design-based stealth features will include further optimised airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature. The aircraft will have an internal weapons bay and radar-absorbent paint and compositesm, quotes Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is expected to be armed with DRDO's missile Astra and other advanced missiles, stand-off weapons and precision weapons. The aircraft will have the capability to deploy Precision Guided Munitions. The aircraft will feature extended detection range and targeting range with the ability to release weapons at supersonic speeds. The aircraft's avionics suite will include AESA radar, IRST and appropriate electronic warfare systems and all aspect missiles warning suite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crew: 1 (pilot)
> Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
> Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
> Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
> Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
> Empty weight: 12,000 kg (26,456 lb)
> Max. takeoff weight: 18,000 kg (39,683 lb)
> Powerplant: 2 × GTRE GTX 35 VS Kaveri NG turbofans
> Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,130 lbf) each
> Thrust with afterburner: 90 kN (20,230 lbf) each
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
> Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,000 ft)
> Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,000 ft/min)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Indian ‘Home-Grown’ AMCA, An Alternative To FGFA*
> June 13, 2013, 12:20 PM
> Despite being involved in the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) joint program with Russia, India is developing a next-generation fighter of its own–the advanced multirole combat aircraft (AMCA).
> 
> The Indian defense ministry’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) showed a large-scale model of the AMCA at Aero India 2013 in February, in Bengaluru. The aerodynamic shape has been considerably refined in comparison to an earlier model exhibited at Aero India 2011, and even more so when compared to a model for wind-tunnel testing shown at Aero India 2009, at which time it was “MCA” without being “Advanced.” This provides evidence that AMCA is being developed in parallel withFGFA. DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Establishment is leading the AMCA program.
> 
> Addressing the next-generation fighter issue, Air Marshall Norman Anil Kumar Browne, the Indian air force chief of staff, declined to compare the AMCA and FGFA, but insisted that “homegrown” projects shall be continued, especially in the area of mission equipment and fighter engines, since “nobody will give us these technologies.”
> 
> Browne also spoke in support of the light combat aircraft “Tejas,” despite the continuing slow progress of this indigenous fighter project, which has been delayed by some 20 years. He said the Tejas would attain initial operational clearance (IOC) at the end of this year and would be through final operational clearance in 2015, with the rider that the air force does not expect this airplane to fully meet specification until the advent of the Tejas Mk.2, with its entry-into-service planned for 2024.
> 
> The AMCA is likely to be powered by the Kaveri motor, also developed in-country. This engine had been conceived for the Tejas, but ran slower than expected and was eventually “detached” from the airframe effort. Instead, experimental and series production Tejas aircraft received the General Electric F404 turbine engine and later will get the more advanced F414.
> 
> The very fact that India continues with the AMCA is an indication that New Delhi has some concerns about the FGFA. Browne hinted that because of India’s late decision to join the Russian project, the FGFA is difficult to arrange as a 50/50 program, as the baseline airframe is too advanced for that. There are also some other fears, such as maturity of the Russian technology in certain spheres. In particular, the prototypes constructed so far feature extensive use of metal in their airframes, reflecting the gaps and shortcomings in the modern composite technology available to Sukhoi. At the same time, the homegrown Tejas has a 43-percent share of composites in its airframe.
> 
> Official information on the AMCA at Aero India 2013 was limited to a one-page leaflet with three views and key marketing terms, such as net-centric warfare, vehicle management (including weapons), data fusion, decision aids, integrated modular avionics, internal carriage of weapons, signature control with sharpening for low observability, AESA radar, IR search-and-track, supersonic persistence, high-speed weapon release and thrust vectoring. It was stated that the aircraft would be able to “swing roles” variously between long/short-range and air-to-air/ground strike.
> 
> According to press reports, scientist Dr. A.K. Ghosh heads the AMCA development effort. Some observers have suggested that, unlike the FGFA, the AMCA’s primary role will be ground attack, and so it will be a direct replacement to the MiG-27M and the Jaguar. Also, there are reports about a “revolutionary” pilot station employing a panoramic active-matrix display (or displays) with touch-screen interface and voice commands, and a helmet-mounted sight replacing, rather than supplementing, a head-up display.
> 
> The AMCA is likely to be an “electronically” actuated airplane rather than hydraulically operated. Instead of the digital flight-control computer, as used on the Tejas, the AMCAis to have a distributed processing system employing fast processors and smart subsystems that can pass over and combine the processing power available in them. This requires the employment of the IEEE-1394B-STD rather than MIL-STD-1553B databus standard. The new airplane is also planned to have a “central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic-fiber channel by means of a multiport connectivity switching modules.” Also mentioned are fly-by-light, electro-optic architecture with fiberoptic links for signal and data communications.



Kindly give source for bolded part.


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## sancho

Archie said:


> I dont know why we are discussing in such great length about a fighter which is still in the design phase
> let AMCA make its first flight, then we can discuss its capability



Because you can only add or develop a fighter, when you know the requirement and what the needed capabilities are, but that is something ADA/DRDO are not putting to much importance in. They just want to develop a 5th gen fighter, no matter what kind, for whom or for what purpose.



Archie said:


> As of now Rafales are designated to replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar Sqds
> FGFA is supposed to replace 3 Mig29 Sqds and 5 MKI sqds when Su30 Starts retiring in 2030
> 
> AMCA is suposed to replace 3 Jaguar Sqds, 3 Mirage Sqds and 2 LCA MK1 sqd




MKI was meant to replace around 200 Mig 23 and 27s in the IAF fleet
LCA was meant to replace around 160 Mig 21 BIS, M/MF
MMRCA was meant to replace around 120 Mig 21 Bisons
FGFA was meant to replace around 110 Mig 29UPG and Mirage 2000UPG + around 40 Mig 27 UPG and 100 Jaguars

The bad shape of the Mig 27s and delays in FGFA development lead to addition MKIs to replace around 40 Mig 27 UPGs. Around 60 Mig 21 secondline fighters will be replaced either by optional LCAs, Rafales or FGAFs.

Which shows that IAF already will has options to replace all fighters till the MKIs, which will reach 30 years operational only by 2034, while IAF plans with up to 40 years with fighters. So there is no requirement in IAF for another fighter that should replace older once. In fact, with the addition of AURA, it is even more likely that dedicated strike fighters like the Jaguars would be replaced by these UCAVs rather than manned fighters, since they can replace the Jags more effectively in it's roles.

Which makes clear, that the next fighter that actually would require a replacement would be the MKI

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> DacterSaab said: ↑
> As of now Rafales are designated to replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar Sqds
> FGFA is supposed to replace 3 Mig29 Sqds and 5 MKI sqds when Su30 Starts retiring in 2030
> AMCA is suposed to replace 3 Jaguar Sqds, 3 Mirage Sqds and 2 LCA MK1 sqd


When did I say that?


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> When did I say that?



Sorry my fault, Archie of course.


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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491832892280958977

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## The A-5

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491832892280958977



Did he mention any source? Like MoD statement or something?


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## Abingdonboy

The A-5 said:


> Did he mention any source? Like MoD statement or something?


Unfortunately not but I've done some research on him and he is on the money about most things (the only Indian defence journo I can say this about) and clearly has some good sources.

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## The A-5

Abingdonboy said:


> Unfortunately not but I've done some research on him and he is on the money about most things (the only Indian defence journo I can say this about) and clearly has some good sources.



Would be really great if IAF buys 220 LCAs. I hope it's like 40 Mk-1 and 180 Mk-2.


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## damiendehorn

The A-5 said:


> Would be really great if IAF buys 220 LCAs. I hope it's like 40 Mk-1 and 180 Mk-2.



How close is the Mk-2 to testing/production? Would it not be realistic to wait just a little longer considering how india has waited so far and order 220 Mk-2s?


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## gslv mk3

damiendehorn said:


> How close is the Mk-2 to testing/production? Would it not be realistic to wait just a little longer considering how india has waited so far and order 220 Mk-2s?



It will come around 2017.


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## HariPrasad

AMCA will be a very good aircraft better than rafale as per Avinash Chander.


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## ANPP

sancho said:


> mki was meant to replace around 200 Mig 23 and 27s in the IAF fleet
> LCA was meant to replace around 160 Mig 21 BIS, M/MF
> MMRCA was meant to replace around 120 Mig 21 Bisons
> FGFA was meant to replace around 110 Mig 29UPG and Mirage 2000UPG + around 40 Mig 27 UPG and 100 Jaguars
> 
> The bad shape of the Mig 27s and delays in FGFA development lead to addition MKIs to replace around 40 Mig 27 UPGs. Around 60 Mig 21 secondline fighters will be replaced either by optional LCAs, Rafales or FGAFs.
> 
> Which shows that IAF already will has options to replace all fighters till the MKIs, which will reach 30 years operational only by 2034, while IAF plans with up to 40 years with fighters. So there is no requirement in IAF for another fighter that should replace older once. In fact, with the addition of AURA, it is even more likely that dedicated strike fighters like the Jaguars would be replaced by these UCAVs rather than manned fighters, since they can replace the Jags more effectively in it's roles.
> 
> Which makes clear, that the next fighter that actually would require a replacement would be the MKI


 
Actually mkis were meant to replace older fighters......like hunter, canbera, mig23,25 and older 21s which were retired without any replacement.
Replacemnts for type 90/70/95/m and fighter which are on verge of their life like bis and mig27, is still on pipeline. This show that we are too far from timeline.

Dont forget that 39.5 is the number set by IAF itself, not the 32 of current.



HariPrasad said:


> AMCA will be a very good aircraft better than rafale as per Avinash Chander.


 LCA has to be better than miraj2000, but you know the reality.


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## Icewolf

So far only thing about AMCA is mock ups. Let's hope for the best of India this doesn't become another Tejas


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## KalaGhoda

AMCA is a bad idea. but we should build a library of knowledge. of what we have learnt over time. i'm sure doing that will streamline any design process and more correct right from the beginning. including civ research.


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## ni8mare

stay on topic folks ...this thread is for AMCA ..


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## sancho

This thread seems more appropriate for a discussion on that



ptltejas said:


> Brazil, how it will be helpful.



They could had been helpful, since their aero industry is ahead of ours, started own engine developments now too and they already have considerable know how in weapon developments. Most of all however, India and Brazil are the only 2 countries (besides the US and France) that are planing to have CATOBAR carriers in future and by the lack of alternatives as catapult capable fighters, a joint development for a stealth carrier fighter instead of the F35C, would had benefitted both countries. So the joint requirement would had made us obvious partners in the development, to share fundings and also jointly benefit from exports. 

However, Brazil now have selected the Gripen NG and are far more than just an export customer anymore. They will develop and produce several parts and even varients of it, integrate indigenous weapons and techs and all that can be the base for a future Swedish / Brazilian stealth fighter program. We missed a big chance to get them closer to us, be it politically or wrt the defence industry.

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## Path-Finder

gslv mk3 said:


> Haha,designed in China,with a few Pakistani Avionics components..



correct me LCA is 110% indigenously Indian.


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## FunkyGen

Looks cool as hell.... so..... are they faking LCA as a major failure so this ACMA can come out and "rock" the skies?
I mean is that possible because I think it is, Indians are competent people known to deliver surprises....



Path-Finder said:


> correct me LCA is 110% indigenously Indian.


How dare you question it, blasphemy! 
btw a little sprinkling of Israeli tech. never hurt anybody....


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## gslv mk3

Path-Finder said:


> correct me LCA is 110% indigenously Indian.



No aircraft is 100%indigenous-take Gripen for example-For LCA the engine is American but rest is ours.



FunkyGen said:


> so..... a*re they faking LCA as a major failure* so this ACMA can come out and "rock" the skies?



Are you really dumb ?



FunkyGen said:


> How dare you question it, blasphemy!
> btw a little sprinkling of Israeli tech. never hurt anybody....



I have elaborated the indigenous content in LCA already.See post #589 & 590 -HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Page 40


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## sancho

Back to topic please!

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## Water Car Engineer

*DRDO’s high performance computing system DHRUVA-3 unveiled*




> The computing system will be useful for the design of advanced aircrafts like the AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft), where analysis of aerodynamics at high speeds under different conditions is required, said Avinash Chander, Director General of the DRDO.

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> *DRDO’s high performance computing system DHRUVA-3 unveiled*



Great news.lets hope that the govt implements the reforms of D-PSUs fast


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Great news.lets hope that the govt implements the reforms of D-PSUs fast



Which reforms? So far we only saw that they gave them a lot of money, but didn't changed much in the way the IAF is included in such developments, nor on taking the PSUs more accountable.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Which reforms? So far we only saw that they gave them a lot of money, but didn't changed much in the way the IAF is included in such developments, nor on taking the PSUs more accountable.



That's why i used the word Implement & i think Air force is also at the fault here,Look at what navy is doing we are building Destroyers & Air craft carriers at home,if i am not wrong those are the pinnacles of Naval Ship Building


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> That's why i used the word Implement & i think Air force is also at the fault here,Look at what navy is doing we are building Destroyers & Air craft carriers at home,if i am not wrong those are the pinnacles of Naval Ship Building



True, there is a lack of interoperability, be it between the forces itself or between the forces and the PSUs. But we also should not waste money like IN does with N-LCA, just for the sake of developing indigenous stuff. But that's exactly why I would want the DM and MoD to force the PSUs and forces to more joint work on such projects, not only blaming each other when things already are in a mess. IAF already stated that they neither have the need for AMCA, nor will put much hope on it. Then why does MoD give DRDO a free pass to develop it as an Air Force version? Ask the navy if they want it and if yes, let them commit to it from the start.


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## HariPrasad

sancho said:


> Which reforms? So far we only saw that they gave them a lot of money, but didn't changed much in the way the IAF is included in such developments, nor on taking the PSUs more accountable.




Damn this PSUS. Once DRDO completes the development, a tender should be issued with production schedule. Who so ever bid favorably should be given the license to produce.

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## sancho

HariPrasad said:


> Damn this PSUS. Once DRDO completes the development, a tender should be issued with production schedule. Who so ever bid favorably should be given the license to produce.



You can only produce something, when you have fully developed the product and that is our weakpoint, the development side!


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## Jayanta

If DRDO and other PSU's are asked to develop the AMCA...then this thread is gonna run for eternity.


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## Abhishek Das

AMCA may be the first completely indigenous fighter aircraft in IAF's inventory by 2022-23....by 2017 India will start the development of this indigenous stealth fighter & around 2020-21 it will take first official flight & after that flight test it may take upto 2-3 years more to be cleared by IAF for operational induction into its fleet....& by 2030 IAF may have upto 60-80 or even 100 (if developed fast) AMCA aircrafts in its inventory, it will have 5.5th Generation Capability that will give it the power of serving the role of both 5th & 6th Generation Stealth fighters, if needed......!!!


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## bloo

As long as Kaveri doesn't evolve nothing will ever happen.


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## kaykay

Abhishek Das said:


> AMCA may be the first completely indigenous fighter aircraft in IAF's inventory by 2022-23....by 2017 India will start the development of this indigenous stealth fighter & around 2020-21 it will take first official flight & after that flight test it may take upto 2-3 years more to be cleared by IAF for operational induction into its fleet....& by 2030 IAF may have upto 60-80 or even 100 (if developed fast) AMCA aircrafts in its inventory, it will have 5.5th Generation Capability that will give it the power of serving the role of both 5th & 6th Generation Stealth fighters, if needed......!!!


Its still on drawing board so talking about Its induction and setting timelines are anything but wise.



bloo said:


> As long as Kaveri doesn't evolve nothing will ever happen.


I don't think that they are going to repeat same mistake as with LCA. They may persue project with some foreign engine while trying to develop kaveri but independent of each other.

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## MilSpec

@sancho How do you feel about bringing in a foreign partner in AMCA program? Rafael or may be even EADS?


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> @sancho How do you feel about bringing in a foreign partner in AMCA program? Rafael or may be even EADS?



I am all for a partnership and have pointed several times to numerous options we had / have, be it Brazil / Embraer, Boeing in combination with a F18SH deal or Dassault, Airbus / EF consortium in return for the MMRCA deal. Without a propper partner and more over without a propper purpose in mind, this project will get nowhere.


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> I am all for a partnership and have pointed several times to numerous options we had / have, be it Brazil / Embraer, Boeing in combination with a F18SH deal or Dassault, Airbus / EF consortium in return for the MMRCA deal. Without a propper partner and more over without a propper purpose in mind, this project will get nowhere.


I was watching the stratpost video, and one gentleman there stated something about german's willing to partner in the LCA, and later being let down by MoD behest of the french. 
I see Israel or the germans, as a viable potential viable partner for the AMCA, hopefully something develops.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I was watching the stratpost video, and one gentleman there stated something about german's willing to partner in the LCA, and later being let down by MoD behest of the french.
> I see Israel or the germans, as a viable potential viable partner for the AMCA, hopefully something develops.



I know which part you mean, but he mixed up some things there. The Germans or better the Germans and French from EADS / Airbus wanted to team up for an advanced trainer version of LCA, because that was cheaper to develop than going for their older plan to develop the EADS Mako trainer. So sadly the Germans only wanted to team up for the trainer, besides being involved in the project already as a consultend for the navalisation of N-LCA. It would had been a great chance for Tejas if we played it smart then, to combine the such a partnership for the trainer version with the procurement of EJ 200 engines, the development of TVC and the development of the N-LCA tech demo version. The more committed they would be in the LCA project, the more it had helped us. But pride and wrong decisions were and remains to be major problems that makes LCA suffer.

The Germans alone will not go for a stealth fighter project, they have more than enough trouble with the EF and it's cost, not to mention that they hardly use their fighters in NATO conflicts anymore. Even in future their main contribution will lie in surveillance, intel or medical support, while providing fighters and offensive weapons will be seen as problematic in the public. One reason why France is moving away from Germany and towards UK as a partner for weapon developments, since they don't have such problems.
Israel can't afford a joint fighter development, nor would the americans allow that. Once because it hurts their F35 sales, secondly they couldn't control Israels military actions even less than they already can. They might be possibilities for joint development of systems or weapons, but not for a joint fighter.


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> I know which part you mean, but he mixed up some things there. The Germans or better the Germans and French from EADS / Airbus wanted to team up for an advanced trainer version of LCA, because that was cheaper to develop than going for their older plan to develop the EADS Mako trainer. So sadly the Germans only wanted to team up for the trainer, besides being involved in the project already as a consultend for the navalisation of N-LCA. It would had been a great chance for Tejas if we played it smart then, to combine the such a partnership for the trainer version with the procurement of EJ 200 engines, the development of TVC and the development of the N-LCA tech demo version. The more committed they would be in the LCA project, the more it had helped us. But pride and wrong decisions were and remains to be major problems that makes LCA suffer.
> 
> The Germans alone will not go for a stealth fighter project, they have more than enough trouble with the EF and it's cost, not to mention that they hardly use their fighters in NATO conflicts anymore. Even in future their main contribution will lie in surveillance, intel or medical support, while providing fighters and offensive weapons will be seen as problematic in the public. One reason why France is moving away from Germany and towards UK as a partner for weapon developments, since they don't have such problems.
> Israel can't afford a joint fighter development, nor would the americans allow that. Once because it hurts their F35 sales, secondly they couldn't control Israels military actions even less than they already can. They might be possibilities for joint development of systems or weapons, but not for a joint fighter.



I feel Israel will not get f22's, and f35 will be adopted to their first tier fighter. There might be a scope for a second tier low observable fighter. that is where AMCA might fit in. Next India being India, should look at a modular combat system which can cater to western as well as russian system with two distinct sensor systems. Israel and India both have expertise in dealing with both western and russian systems.

Europe is not a very reliable partner french are an exception, as they have been throughout thier history.

I think russia and Israel are two partnerships that India needs to consolidate. Russia is still stuck in the 90's mentality and the partnership needs to be evolved into a joint developmental model. Israel is already there but I feel previous government has missed quite a few opportunities to consolidate the partnership.

PMF FGFA and AMCA will be flagship combat systems 20 years in the future. The way AMCA is progressing, it seems like the LCA story all over again, if we learn from our mistakes, IAF's future will remain bleak.

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## YouGotRouged

I believe firmly that a partnership-JV is the only way to go for AMCA and that the block upgradations in the future can be dealt with in-house. But the partner must be one that is going to be reliable, business and politically speaking. That in mind, I believe an Indo-Israeli-South Korean/Japanese venture would work best.


----------



## HariPrasad

sancho said:


> It would had been a great chance for Tejas if we played it smart then, to combine the such a partnership for the trainer version with the procurement of EJ 200 engines, the development of TVC and the development of the N-LCA tech demo version. The more committed they would be in the LCA project, the more it had helped us. But pride and wrong decisions were and remains to be major problems that makes LCA suffer.




Very correct.

Germans were very much impressed with LCA designed and wanted to contribute in program. They wanted to place an order of 12 fighters but we had a blind government at the center in late 80 s an nineties. We missed the opportunity.


----------



## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I feel Israel will not get f22's, and f35 will be adopted to their first tier fighter. There might be a scope for a second tier low observable fighter. that is where AMCA might fit in.



Nobody gets the F22, UK, Israel and Japan tried it (because they found the F35 not to be good enough) and got rejected, but who says AMCA is meant to be like the F22? In fact wasn't the aim of DRDO to present it as our 2nd tier below the FGFA, similar to the low end F35? So that's not really a point for Israel right? But as I said, financial and political hurdles will be a bigger problem for them.



sandy_3126 said:


> Next India being India, should look at a modular combat system which can cater to western as well as russian system with two distinct sensor systems. Israel and India both have expertise in dealing with both western and russian systems.



That's an advantage when you have access to Russian and western stuff, but India is one of the very few countries that has this luxery, so when the aim is to make AMCA an export stealth fighter too, the variety is actually a limiting factor which already can be seen in the LCA now. We are not able to sell it to any Gulf state, because of the Israeli techs, the US engine means exports can be limited by them and there are not many countries left that would use Russian weapons, when they have western alternatives on offer. Same goes for our Frigates and Destroyers, highly powerful and with advanced systems, thanks to the Russian weapons and Israeli systems, but when we want to export them it will be difficult to find suitable customers for exactly this variety. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Europe is not a very reliable partner french are an exception, as they have been throughout thier history.



And still we procure most of our weapons and techs now from them, if we don't go to Russia in first place. Germany for example is providing us with arms for a long time, but today Indias importance is much higher than in 2000 for example and we have to take "offensive" steps to get them in propper partnerships with us. That's why India being a defence hub for the world would be so important, because it makes all the important countries to commit themselfs to us and the more committed they are, the better for a reliable partnership.



sandy_3126 said:


> Israel is already there but I feel previous government has missed quite a few opportunities to consolidate the partnership.



True we are at partnership level with Israel, but with crucial limitations based on their financial and political relation to the US. Be it EL 2052 for LCA, for Gripen IN, be it AESA co-developments with them, most likely a denial to provide us with David Sling missiles..., too many problems that sets limitations, not to mention that their industrial capability is limited to certain fields too. Compared to them, Europe is far more independent and can offer much more defence related systems. However as long as they still see us just an emerging country, that is not reliable in defence procurements and developments, it will take time till we actually get to partnership levels. That's why we need to use procurements like MMRCA, LUH, Avro replacement... to a much greater extend to increase political and industrial ties. Seeing them just as procurement is too less and a missed chance.



sandy_3126 said:


> The way AMCA is progressing, it seems like the LCA story all over again, if we learn from our mistakes, IAF's future will remain bleak.



Sadly yes, which shows that we didn't learned from our mistakes, especially ADA and DRDO. As I told you earlier, for me AMCA is the best chance for HAL to show that they are more than just a production house for ADA / DRDO and that they can be even better than the these 2, by presenting an alternative AMCA in competition to the DRDO / ADA design. But as I said in my last post, the biggest problem is the purpose, because IAF don't need AMCA earlier than in 2030/35, which alone makes that project now unnecessary, except for I, unless IN finally forgets about the useless N-LCA and pitch stronger on a NG carrier fighter, that's where AMCA is really needed!



Bill_Maher said:


> That in mind, I believe an Indo-Israeli-South Korean/Japanese venture would work best.



India partnering with 3 countries that are highly dependent on the US? We have to increase the relations to these countries independently, but can't really depent on them to take decisions that are not guided from the US.



HariPrasad said:


> Very correct.
> 
> Germans were very much impressed with LCA designed and wanted to contribute in program. They wanted to place an order of 12 fighters but we had a blind government at the center in late 80 s an nineties. We missed the opportunity.



It's not about the Germans = the government or forces, but EADS that showed actual interest in a trainer version and not the actual fighter and it wasn't in the 80s or 90s, but in the recent years when EADS already got involved as a consultancy partner:

EADS Offers Mako Trainer Technology For LCA


----------



## Water Car Engineer

During the year, the R&D divisions at NAL have significantly contributed towards the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft programme of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). The R&D efforts led to the new configuration AMCA-3B-08 and a structurally efficient wing layout with four bending attachment brackets and two shear attachment brackets. For the AMCA 3B-08, structural design, analysis and size optimization was carried out to cater for all critical symmetric and un-symmetric load cases. Finite element models were built separately for each of the fuselage segments and then integrated to build a full fuselage finite element model.


From NALs 2014 report

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## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 129278
> 
> 
> During the year, the R&D divisions at NAL have significantly contributed towards the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft programme of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). The R&D efforts led to the new configuration AMCA-3B-08 and a structurally efficient wing layout with four bending attachment brackets and two shear attachment brackets. For the AMCA 3B-08, structural design, analysis and size optimization was carried out to cater for all critical symmetric and un-symmetric load cases. Finite element models were built separately for each of the fuselage segments and then integrated to build a full fuselage finite element model.
> 
> 
> From NALs 2014 report



The air intake and LERX design looks modified .....


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## HariPrasad

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 129278
> 
> 
> During the year, the R&D divisions at NAL have significantly contributed towards the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft programme of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). The R&D efforts led to the new configuration AMCA-3B-08 and a structurally efficient wing layout with four bending attachment brackets and two shear attachment brackets. For the AMCA 3B-08, structural design, analysis and size optimization was carried out to cater for all critical symmetric and un-symmetric load cases. Finite element models were built separately for each of the fuselage segments and then integrated to build a full fuselage finite element model.
> 
> 
> From NALs 2014 report




It seems that a lesson from LCA Mk 1 is learned. In LCA they went for extra large wing not matching fuselage size resulting in wave drag and STR penalty. Even LCA MK2 is not an optimize design. Aerodynamic study shows that optimum length of fuselage should be 1.2 meter longer than the present one. But that would mean a totally new plane resulting into a lots of testing and time overrun as a result. We shall see an optimum length in MK3 which will be a stealthier design. AMCA appears to be a very good design. Avinash chander said that it will be better than rafale.

Engines are too close unlike PAKFA design. Chinese are facing problem with J 20 for mounting Engines too close. We can hope that ADA guys have taken sufficient precautionary measure to avoid anything going wrong with design.


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## Danish saleem

i still not able to understand the name of Aircraft!

Advance medium Aircraft!
i think it should be like Medium Advance Aircraft!


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## RKO

Danish saleem said:


> i still not able to understand the name of Aircraft!
> 
> Advance medium Aircraft!
> i think it should be like Medium Advance Aircraft!


Advanced multirole combat aircraft. ... I think!!!



Danish saleem said:


> i still not able to understand the name of Aircraft!
> 
> Advance medium Aircraft!
> i think it should be like Medium Advance Aircraft!


Advanced multirole combat aircraft. ... I think!!!


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## kurup

*AMCA* = *A*dvanced *M*edium *C*ombat *A*ircraft

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## Danish saleem

RKO said:


> Advanced multirole combat aircraft. ... I think!!!
> 
> 
> Advanced multirole combat aircraft. ... I think!!!


so what is advance and what is Medium in that aircraft?


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## kurup

Danish saleem said:


> so what is advance and what is Medium in that aircraft?



Advanced because it is a 5G aircraft .

Medium as in weight category .

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## Danish saleem

kurup said:


> Advanced because it is a 5G aircraft .
> 
> Medium as in weight category .


Thanks,


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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


> Advanced because it is a 5G aircraft .
> 
> Medium as in weight category .




Earlier it was a MCA like LCA. Airforce change some GSQR and design changed so as the name. MCA conceived as a 2 engine Thrust victor Fin less aircraft. Design under go various grass root changes vefore reaching to the present one. prior design was this.

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## kurup

HariPrasad said:


> Earlier it was a MCA like LCA. Airforce change some GSQR and design changed so as the name. MCA conceived as a 2 engine Thrust victor Fin less aircraft. Design under go various grass root changes vefore reaching to the present one. prior design was this.
> 
> View attachment 129566
> 
> 
> View attachment 129567



Thank God they never went along with MCA ....... It was too ambiguous and would have resulted in another delayed project .

*MCA*

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## MehrotraPrince

*AMCA Version 3B-08*





During the year 2014, the R&D divisions at NAL have significantly contributed towards the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft
programme of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). The R&D efforts led to the new configuration AMCA-3B-08 and a structurally efficient wing layout with four bending attachment brackets and two shear attachment brackets. For the AMCA
3B-08, structural design, analysis and size optimization was carried out to cater for all critical symmetric and un-symmetric load cases. Finite element models were built separately for each of the fuselage segments and then integrated to build a full fuselage finite element model.

*Source:* Annual Report of the CSIR National Aerospace Laboratories for the year ended 31st March 2014.

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## ptltejas

Sixth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jayanta

What's the point of having this thread, when India has decided to stall work on AMCA.


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## Chakram Indian

Jayanta said:


> What's the point of having this thread, when India has decided to stall work on AMCA.



there is no stalling work is already on 

the development agencies are being proactive 

they are regulary doing concept studies and designs


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## Abingdonboy

Jayanta said:


> What's the point of having this thread, when India has decided to stall work on AMCA.


Well it's clearly not stalled is it? Work is still going on simply, for now, more attention is being given (and rightfully so) to get the LCA Mk.2 in service and then more attention will go on the AMCA.

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## HariPrasad

Abingdonboy said:


> Well it's clearly not stalled is it? Work is still going on simply, for now, more attention is being given (and rightfully so) to get the LCA Mk.2 in service and then more attention will go on the AMCA.




Since the preliminary design of LCA MK2 is released, It is the time to focus on AMCA and LCA MK 3 with 6 ton weight and above 5.5 tons of weight carrying capability , stealth, Long range in excess of 3000 KM, Super cruise, AESA, High supersonic A TO A missile, precision strike weapons and bombs etc.

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## halupridol

HariPrasad said:


> Since the preliminary design of LCA MK2 is released, It is the time to focus on AMCA and LCA MK 3 with 6 ton weight and above 5.5 tons of weight carrying capability , stealth, Long range in excess of 3000 KM, Super cruise, AESA, High supersonic A TO A missile, precision strike weapons and bombs etc.


when do u expect LCA mk2 to enter service?


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## nvKyleBrown

They are still thinking Kaveri? That alone will kill the project. :-( Run the two separately at least, with a backup plan for the engine.


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## HariPrasad

halupridol said:


> when do u expect LCA mk2 to enter service?



2019.


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## Chakram Indian

halupridol said:


> when do u expect LCA mk2 to enter service?



first prototypes by 2018-19 seems fair enough 1-2 years testing 2020 series production

whats your take


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## HariPrasad

nvKyleBrown said:


> They are still thinking Kaveri? That alone will kill the project. :-( Run the two separately at least, with a backup plan for the engine.




Kaveri has exceeded the designed dry thrust. 51+ KN against designed 50 Kn. The problem is wet thrust. If we are able to develop a better metallurgy, we can certainly go for high compression ratio and high temperature parts operating 50 to 100 * centigrade higher and at a better pressure which will solve the problem. We should ensure that we continue to pursue the project and do not live it in between. We have to realize the engine. We can ask the Russia to provide the metallurgy of engine used in Sukhoi. we can use same mettle in K 10 to reach at 90 KN engine which we may use in AMCA also.

We are going to build F414 out of mettle provided by US. If the project is managed in a better way, We can have a very good working wngine by the end of current decade.

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## Chakram Indian

kaveri or domestic engine is a must 

even for our own UAVs 

nobody will give them as it falls under some MTCR like control regimes so even for 

UACVs and UAV;s we will require domestic aero engines


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## halupridol

HariPrasad said:


> 2019.





Chakram Indian said:


> first prototypes by 2018-19 seems fair enough 1-2 years testing 2020 series production
> 
> whats your take


hari is optimistic as ever 
i think 5 years from first prototype


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## Chakram Indian

halupridol said:


> hari is optimistic as ever
> i think 5 years from first prototype



5 years from 1st prototype 

no 

it wont take so much time 'coz 
all basic systems are tested on mk1 

all integration of weapons are carried out and issues ironed out in mk1 

all tests points and redundant test points known in testing mk1 

See 

design is finalised for mk2 

so from the word go - shouldnt take more that 3 years for prototypes + this time they will go for more prototypes for simultaneous testing and variations


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## HariPrasad

halupridol said:


> hari is optimistic as ever




Yes may be.

We have seen a highly compressed time frame being attained in missile development which we witnessed in the case of A4, A5, Prahar etc. Since we have fair degree of experience in aircraft development and we gave seen development cycle running in top gears, I can reasonably expect that DRDO will be able to deliver the plane in stipulated time frame. Even they put little more effort and be generous in spending, they may get first prototype fly in the middle of 2016. It is not impossible.


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well it's clearly not stalled is it? Work is still going on simply, for now, more attention is being given (and rightfully so) to get the LCA Mk.2 in service and then more attention will go on the AMCA.



Concept work is going on by ADA, DRDO or NAL, but there is not AMCA project as such cleared by the forces or the MoD yet and the former MoD stalled fundings till LCA is ready. 
Wrt to the new graphics, the air intakes looks strange and the wings less diamond shaped as before.



nvKyleBrown said:


> They are still thinking Kaveri? That alone will kill the project. :-( Run the two separately at least, with a backup plan for the engine.



No, at least here they made some progress in learning from mistakes and de-linked Kaveri development from the fighter developments. It still is aimed to power LCA or even AMCA at some point, but the initial idea for AMCA will be to select a foreign engine as the base.



Chakram Indian said:


> first prototypes by 2018-19 seems fair enough 1-2 years testing 2020 series production
> 
> whats your take



Far too late! The official aim is to start series production by 2017/18 and start induction in 2019. That time line is also crucial, since N-LCA is based on the success of development and serial production of the MK2 version, so any delay of the MK2, will automatically delay N-LCA even further to a point of no logical sense.


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## sathya

halupridol said:


> hari is optimistic as ever
> i think 5 years from first prototype




There will be NO prototypes, 

Straight to Lsp/SP..

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## fsayed

Eurojet ready to partner with India on AMCA | idrw.org

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## fsayed

*AMCA will b 25 ton class fighter plane *


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## Major Shaitan Singh

India's stealth fighter dream AMCA takes firm shape. Super cruise requirements being fine-tuned now.

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## ptltejas

‪#‎Tiwari_Sumit‬ | Facebook


GOOD NEWS .... Super cruise requirements of India's stealth fighter AMCA being fine-tuned now. Mr. "Annantha Krishnan M " tweeted the update .Scientist will reveal the new and refined model of AMCA next week . #Tiwari_Sumit


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## Etilla

how many decades to first technology demonstrator?

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## vsdave2302

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> India's stealth fighter dream AMCA takes firm shape. Super cruise requirements being fine-tuned now.
> View attachment 162146


 

Looks alike the new 5th gen fighter of Lockheed Martine.


----------



## The Great One

vsdave2302 said:


> Looks alike the new 5th gen fighter of Lockheed Martine.


What new fighter. F-35 is the last one. 
If anything it looks similar to Boeing's YF-23.


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## vsdave2302

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> India's stealth fighter dream AMCA takes firm shape. Super cruise requirements being fine-tuned now.
> View attachment 162146


 

It seems that a lesson is learned from LCA Mistake. Look at the long fuselage and compact wings.


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## sathya

vsdave2302 said:


> It seems that a lesson is learned from LCA Mistake. Look at the long fuselage and compact wings.




Do you believe AMCA will resemble that ?


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## sathya

AMCA undergoes wind tunnel test in USA - s jha

RFP for 110kn engine to be issued next year


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## sancho

sathya said:


> Most likely winner is GE 414 épé or ede
> 
> Since there is no RFI only RFP for those engine which are the uprated version of engines that IAF already evaluated.



=>



> *USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade*
> 
> ...The F414 EDE is billed as an upgrade – not a new centreline engine – but it promises significant performance improvement. The configuration changes are exclusively hardware, but how the performance improvement is realised depends entirely on the software.
> 
> The navy can programme the full authority digital engine control system to upgrade the power output of the F414 EDE engine to around 26,400lb-thrust. The same changes can dramatically improve the engine’s durability if thrust output is maintained at the 22,000lb-thrust baseline.
> 
> *The latter option also offers a 3% improvement in fuel efficiency, and up to $5 billion cost savings over an engine’s lifecycle – including reduced fuel and maintenance costs*, GE’s Caplan says.
> 
> *The trade-off with upgrading the engine to produce 26,400lb-thrust is a considerable hike in maintenance costs. Running the F414 EDE at the higher thrust setting reduces turbine life to 2,000h, Caplan says. This is just one-third of the current 6,000h interval...*



USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade - 4/28/2014 - Flight Global

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/545179657251725312


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/545177745802543104


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/545160957895249921

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## sancho

Would be interesting on what he bases this, when the official IAF statements show something else.


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## sathya

It took 25 years for the LCA from the project definition phase to IOC 2 

With all the building blocks in place, I hope AMCA gets done really faster

And it's looks like AMCA is taking a safer approach.


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## jha

^^^ Wonder how true are those tweets....


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## sancho

sathya said:


> It took 25 years for the LCA from the project definition phase to IOC 2
> 
> With all the building blocks in place, I hope AMCA gets done really faster
> 
> And it's looks like AMCA is taking a safer approach.



Well that depends, at least they seems to choose a foreign engine to start with, but lets see if they are smart enough to combine it with the development of an own engine, or if they try to develop an own engine alone again. But they are again far too overoptimistic about their capabilities and make the same mistake for the naval version again, although they admitted that it is easier to develop the naval design first.



jha said:


> ^^^ Wonder how true are those tweets....



Yes, that's what I thought too.


----------



## jha

sancho said:


> Yes, that's what I thought too.



When there is no sign of any prototype for atleast 7-8 years, why would they issue RFP next year..? Something is not right.

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## AMCA

jha said:


> When there is no sign of any prototype for atleast 7-8 years, why would they issue RFP next year..? Something is not right.



Well Remeber GTRE cancelled Kaveri and is working on a 110 KN Jet Engine. A 2015 RFP would be bagged by them and would undergo Research and Validation for another 6-8 years until the prototype for AMCA gets ready.


----------



## jha

AMCA said:


> Well Remeber GTRE cancelled Kaveri and is working on a 110 KN Jet Engine. A 2015 RFP would be bagged by them and would undergo Research and Validation for another 6-8 years until the prototype for AMCA gets ready.



Sorry to sound pessimistic But I am not sure DRDO can come up with a working engine in that time frame. Kaveri proved that we need atleast 10-15 years for that.


----------



## The Huskar

AMCA said:


> Well Remeber GTRE cancelled Kaveri and is working on a 110 KN Jet Engine. A 2015 RFP would be bagged by them and would undergo Research and Validation for another 6-8 years until the prototype for AMCA gets ready.


If GTRE produces a competent engine for AURA,I will say I am satisfied with their work.We should not expect so much from GTRE,it fuc**** pisses me off to be disappointed later.


----------



## AMCA

jha said:


> Sorry to sound pessimistic But I am not sure DRDO can come up with a working engine in that time frame. Kaveri proved that we need atleast 10-15 years for that.



Take it with a pinch of sarcasm bro. Do you think I was serious when I wrote that??? lol...


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## rockstarIN

We need continuous development in this field. After LCA-Mk2 we should focus on this with the experience from PAK-FA & Rafale co production/ToT


----------



## sancho

jha said:


> When there is no sign of any prototype for atleast 7-8 years, why would they issue RFP next year..? Something is not right.



Well, they can evaluate possible engines, which alone will take some time in India. More interesting though is, when they plan to have a stealth airframe designed and ready for ground tests, which might be the far bigger problem. ADA is showing credible problems in aircraft design, which makes a NG fighter design that not only should be stealthy but aerodynamic to be a very huge step. I already can see the reports stating, it's an "ambitious" project. 



The Huskar said:


> If GTRE produces a competent engine for AURA,I will say I am satisfied with their work.We should not expect so much from GTRE,it fuc**** pisses me off to be disappointed later.



The problem is, that it's not the public that expects too much, it's DRDO that promises too much! They failed with a rather normal engine development with less thrust and now they aim on developing a NG engine with far more thrust and more capabilities. They simply jump on the next project, without delivering what they promised decades ago and for what they wasted millions of Taxpayers money.
We could be more than satisfied and happy with GTRE, if they get Kaveri ready for Mig 29K or later LCA upgrades. It would be great if they had joined the Russians in the Type 30 engine developments, to learn, but also to modify the engine if it benefits the operations in India. 
Helping our forces doesn't mean it needs to be an indigenous engine, nor that it needs to be a world class engine and that's what DRDO fails to understand.


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## Wolfhound

by the looks of it you wont be getting this by 2020


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## sathya

Wolfhound said:


> by the looks of it you wont be getting this by 2020




it took tejas mk 1 , 25 years from this stage

AMCA is taking less risk approach like jf 17, ie using off the shelf technologies

so on average it may take 10 years.


----------



## sancho

sathya said:


> it took tejas mk 1 , 25 years from this stage
> 
> AMCA is taking less risk approach like jf 17, ie *using off the self technologies*
> 
> so on average it may take 10 years.



- stealth design
- high thrust engine
- Supercruise and TVC capabilities
- AESA radar
- IRST

None of them is available in India today and don't forget that AMCA is far more difficult to develop because of the stealth requirement. It's not only going from a single engine fighter development to a twin engine fighter development.

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## sathya

i meant we are not going by LCA route, more of Dhruv route

where ever we lack, we will buy from other countries

and slowly replace with indigenous ones


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## sancho

sathya said:


> i meant we are not going by LCA route, more of Dhruv route



Would be great if we do it the Dhruv way, but then we would seek for foreign design and development partners first and not only for a foreign engine. In fact there is not even a single report hinting on joint developments in any field and they don't even change things where they admitted mistakes, the development of the naval version. So all we see so far is the same way they did LCA, except of chosing a foreign engine.


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## Dem!god

Wolfhound said:


> by the looks of it you wont be getting this by 2020


lol.. 2020...
i am sure we are not getting this even by 2025...

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## HariPrasad

sathya said:


> Do you believe AMCA will resemble that ?




It looks very much alike.



sathya said:


> it took tejas mk 1 , 25 years from this stage
> 
> AMCA is taking less risk approach like jf 17, ie using off the shelf technologies
> 
> so on average it may take 10 years.




It was a learning phase.


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## halupridol

Dem!god said:


> lol.. 2020...
> i am sure we are not getting this even by 2025...


make that 2035


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## Wolfhound

halupridol said:


> make that 2035


someone really has ha can't do attitude


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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/549620917412691968


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## jha

GTRE has released a new RFI for designing Fan of Engine which according to some is for AMCA ( 110-120KN ).

DRDO


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## Nodata

We should get our first AMCA for testing by next year.


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## Dillinger

Nodata said:


> We should get our first AMCA for testing by next year.


Yup and become a 10 trillion dollar economy too. Lets not opt for one liners which are clearly not based on facts.

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## Nodata

Dillinger said:


> Yup and become a 10 trillion dollar economy too. Lets not opt for one liners which are clearly not based on facts.


HAL and ADA have shown the good work in Tejas. 

Imported Air Force not letting it clear FOC.

AMCA is an easy job for them with Parrikar as DM.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

> Top defence sources on Wednesday said the preliminary design stage of the futuristic fighter called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), with collaboration among IAF, DRDO and Aeronautical Development Agency, is now "virtually" over.





> "Once the project definition and feasibility is completed in the next few months, the defence ministry will go to the cabinet committee on security for approval.* It will require Rs 4,000-5,000 crore for the initial design and development phase,"* said a source.





> *The aim is to fly the first twin-engine AMCA prototype by 2023-2024*, which will be around the time deliveries of Tejas Mark-II fighters will be underway. IAF is slated to get its first Tejas Mark-I in March this year, over 30 years after the LCA project was first approved in August 1983. But the Tejas Mark-II jets, with more powerful engines, will start to come only by 2021-2022, as was first reported by TOI.
> 
> "After Tejas-II, we have to move ahead to a fifth-generation-plus AMCA. *Basic design work of AMCA as well as presentations by five to six global aero-engine manufacturers is over.* Simulation modelling is also in the works," said the source.


Make-in-India: Plan to develop 5th-generation fighter aircraft - The Times of India

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## Dr Gupta

Will they rope in a consultant like Saab to help? would make sense for such a ambitious project.


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## greatone

Can anyone post the final design of AMCA and give an aeronautical analysis of its strengths and weaknesses ?


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## $@rJen

*Make-in-India: Plan to develop 5th-generation fighter aircraft*
Published January 8, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: TNN







India plans to kick-off its own fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) development project this year to build on the expertise gained in the long developmental saga of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft.

Top defence sources on Wednesday said the preliminary design stage of the futuristic fighter called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), with collaboration among IAF, DRDO and Aeronautical Development Agency, is now “virtually” over.

“Once the project definition and feasibility is completed in the next few months, the defence ministry will go to the cabinet committee on security for approval. It will require Rs 4,000-5,000 crore for the initial design and development phase,” said a source.

The aim is to fly the first twin-engine AMCA prototype by 2023-2024, which will be around the time deliveries of Tejas Mark-II fighters will be underway. IAF is slated to get its first Tejas Mark-I in March this year, over 30 years after the LCA project was first approved in August 1983. But the Tejas Mark-II jets, with more powerful engines, will start to come only by 2021-2022, as was first reported by TOI.

“After Tejas-II, we have to move ahead to a fifth-generation-plus AMCA. Basic design work of AMCA as well as presentations by five to six global aero-engine manufacturers is over. Simulation modelling is also in the works,” said the source.

India, of course, is also trying to sort out its differences with Russia over their proposed joint development of the Indian “perspective multi-role fighter” based on the latter’s under-development FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA.India, in fact, had told Russia it cannot wait till 2024-2025 to begin inducting 127 of these single-seat fighters, which will entail an overall expenditure of around $25 billion. But India also wants its own home-grown AMCA project in the long-run for strategic and economic reasons.

A swing-role FGFA basically combines advanced stealth, supercruise (capability to achieve supersonic cruise speeds without use of afterburners), super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.

But the 20-year long development of the American F/A-22 “Raptor”, the only fully-operational FGFA in the world today, has shown that such a project is an extremely complex and costly affair.

The US shut down the production of Raptors in 2012 after inducting 188 of them at an overall cost of $67 billion due to huge costs, technical glitches and time overruns. The US is now finally moving towards operationalizing a more advanced FGFA, the F-35 “Lightning-II” joint strike fighter. With the project yet to overcome all technical and software glitches, the overall cost for the planned induction of almost 2,500 such fighters stands at around $400 billion.

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## ngocdien

This project is dead or alive so!.


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## $@rJen

ngocdien said:


> This project is dead or alive so!.



Project is alive... but funds have been not diverted or given attention to this project properly yet. if funds were given this year then the first prototype will be coming by 2024 as per drdo's claims... but still can't trust them


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## halaku

Why AMCA is called medium class isn't. It belongs to the same Chinese 5TH generation class?


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## sancho

ngocdien said:


> This project is dead or alive so!.



It's a DRDO project and as such it's alive, but neither got government funding nor IAF support so far, so anything is possible, but it remains a long shot.



halaku said:


> Why AMCA is called medium class isn't. It belongs to the same Chinese 5TH generation class?



Because it aims to the medium weight class of fighters, just as the F35 or J31, while Pak Fa / FGFA, J20 or F22 are heavy weight class fighters.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> It's a DRDO project and as such it's alive, but neither got government funding nor IAF support so far, so anything is possible, but it remains a long shot.


You know what, now people count AMCA time line from 2008! even with out proper funds in 2015.

"In October 2008, the Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features"

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## halaku

sancho said:


> It's a DRDO project and as such it's alive, but neither got government funding nor IAF support so far, so anything is possible, but it remains a long shot.
> 
> 
> 
> Because it aims to the medium weight class of fighters, just as the F35 or J31, while Pak Fa / FGFA, J20 or F22 are heavy weight class fighters.


Thanks,also is weight the only difference between FGFA and AMCA?


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## $@rJen

halaku said:


> Thanks,also is weight the only difference between FGFA and AMCA?



both are 5th Ge fighters.... FGFA is being build by both Russia and India for Indian air force ( Indian version of PAK-FA) while AMCA is indigenous

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> You know what, now people count AMCA time line from 2008! even with out proper funds in 2015.
> 
> "In October 2008, the Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features"



Hehe of course, just as in LCA and because IAF provided basic ASR for AMCA back then and people will say IAF wanted it, but the reality is different. IAF supports NG indigenous technology developments, but doesn't need the fighter for their operational needs.

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## ngocdien

Thanks.


sarjenprabhu said:


> Project is alive... but funds have been not diverted or given attention to this project properly yet. if funds were given this year then the first prototype will be coming by 2024 as per drdo's claims... but still can't trust them


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## sancho

halaku said:


> Thanks,also is weight the only difference between FGFA and AMCA?



The smaller weight class obviously changes the requirements for engines or size, but what we know so far, DRDO aims on similar capabilities to FGFA (twin engine design, with Supercruise and TVC capabilities), which also is the silly part, because it doesn't add something that IAF wouldn't have with FGFA anyway.

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## jha

Good. 5000 crores is not that much since we are ready to spend 20 times more for a phoren maal.

There seems to be some seriousness this time as they have already decided to meet engine manufacturers . even LCA is gaining momentum.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Good. 5000 crores is not that much since we are ready to spend 20 times more for a phoren maal.
> 
> There seems to be some seriousness this time as they have already decided to meet engine manufacturers .* even LCA is gaining momentum*.




LCA MK1 FOC planned for Dec 2014, now end of 2015
N-LCA NP1 roll out planned for Nov 2014, now possibly Jan 2015



> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) *is in the paper design phase*… We feel aircraft development is a 15-year cycle, *so by 2027-2030, we should be able to have AMCA*.



*Source: DRDO Director General Avinash Chander*

‘Our budget was stagnant for 5-6 yrs… This has been restored’, Avinash Chander, Director General,DRDO | The Indian Express


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## jha

sancho said:


> LCA MK1 FOC planned for Dec 2014, now end of 2015
> N-LCA NP1 roll out planned for Nov 2014, now possibly Jan 2015
> 
> 
> 
> *Source: DRDO Director General Avinash Chander*
> 
> ‘Our budget was stagnant for 5-6 yrs… This has been restored’, Avinash Chander, Director General,DRDO | The Indian Express



MRCA conceived : 2004
MRCA Selected : 2012
MRCA Deal signed : .. ???????
Plane inducted.: ..???????????

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## sancho

jha said:


> MRCA conceived : 2004
> MRCA Selected : 2012
> MRCA Deal signed : .. ???????
> Plane inducted.: ..???????????



2017 if any of the 2 MMRCA's will be chosen, so even with delays, MoD can fix MMRCA faster than DRDO develop anything.

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## jha

sancho said:


> 2017 if any of the 2 MMRCA's will be chosen, so even with delays, MoD can fix MMRCA faster than DRDO develop anything.



Of course.. But all DRDO is asking for is 5% of what we are willing to spend on French Fries and thats a reasonable demand.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Of course.. But all DRDO is asking for is 5% of what we are willing to spend on French Fries and thats a reasonable demand.



Just that the one is development cost and the other procurement cost. Just that DRDO has a history of costincreases due to development delays and still don't deliver.

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## jha

sancho said:


> Just that the one is development cost and the other procurement cost. Just that DRDO has a history of costincreases due to development delays and still don't deliver.



DRDO/ADA has started to deliver and their first baby is going to fly very soon. Rs. 5000 Crores is expandable if it helps in creating a Medium class fighter which will replace SU-30MKI. Its anyway too small an amount for a dream this big. Especially when this time they are being pragmatic and are going to select an engine now itself and will design a fighter around this.


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## sancho

jha said:


> DRDO/ADA has started to deliver and their first baby is going to fly very soon.



No they haven't as shown in my last post, LCA FOC, NP2 even DRDO AWACS induction, all delayed and behind promises and should I even start about Kaveri?



jha said:


> Rs. 5000 Crores is expandable if it helps in creating a Medium class fighter which will replace SU-30MKI.



If it would be meant for the MKI replacement, I would be all for it, but that would be the case only beyond 2030! Because then we actually will have the need of a new type of fighter to replace an older one, but DRDO doesn't really care about what IAF or IN really needs. They want to develop a stealth fighter on their own, because they are just watching from the sideline in the FGFA project.



jha said:


> Its anyway too small an amount for a dream this big. Especially when this time they are being pragmatic and are going to select an engine now itself and will design a fighter around this.



Pragmatic, or forced? and by the fact that there is not a single engine available today, that offers the necessary power, we have to invest in the upgrade / development of a foreign engine first, so that will cost us much too.

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## sancho

Turkey is closing in on teaming up with Eurojet, to provide them with an engine for their coming stealth fighter, while GE is the most likely choice for South Korea for their KFX stealth fighter, which puts India even more in the bad position for AMCA. It will be funny if we reject Rafale and already cancelled the Kaveri engine, to be forced to take Snecmas offer to jointly develop the Kaveri K10 engine at the end, which might not even provide the necessary thrust.

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## SQ8

Sort of disappointed with the AMCA design as I was really hoping for it to be the tailless delta shown in the earliest concepts, however I can understand that the safer bet is the way to go.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Turkey is closing in on teaming up with Eurojet, to provide them with an engine for their coming stealth fighter, while GE is the most likely choice for South Korea for their KFX stealth fighter, which puts India even more in the bad position for AMCA. It will be funny if we reject Rafale and already cancelled the Kaveri engine, to be forced to take Snecmas offer to jointly develop the Kaveri K10 engine at the end, which might not even provide the necessary thrust.



WTH we even the Turks & Koreans are beating us


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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> Turkey is closing in on teaming up with Eurojet, to provide them with an engine for their coming stealth fighter, while GE is the most likely choice for South Korea for their KFX stealth fighter, which puts India even more in the* bad position for AMCA*. It will be funny if we reject Rafale and already cancelled the Kaveri engine, to be forced to take Snecmas offer to jointly develop the Kaveri K10 engine at the end, which might not even provide the necessary thrust.


how??


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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> Sort of disappointed with the AMCA design as I was really hoping for it to be the tailless delta shown in the earliest concepts, however I can understand that the safer bet is the way to go.



I like the latest iteration.






The angle of the canted vertical stabilizers. The fuselage and wing form. Unfortunately we cannot see the inlets from the front to fully appreciate the unique shape.

The Americans bring with them unique opportunities. At this point it is likely, not guaranteed, that GE will provide the engines, perhaps the EPE. There are certain "additions" which would add real value to the AMCA, think the EODAS and integrated Northrop ThNDR. We were willing to go through the lengthy process of integrating third party OEM equipment on an imported platform (MKI), we should be willing to do the same for our indigenous platform as well.

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## SrNair

Oscar said:


> Sort of disappointed with the AMCA design as I was really hoping for it to be the tailless delta shown in the earliest concepts, however I can understand that the safer bet is the way to go.




Indian aerospace field is totally sucks.
They changed AMCA design a lot frequently due to changing requirements and uncertainity.


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## Water Car Engineer

Oscar said:


> Sort of disappointed with the AMCA design as I was really hoping for it to be the tailless delta shown in the earliest concepts, however I can understand that the safer bet is the way to go.




Which design is that? I havent seen it.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Sort of disappointed with the AMCA design as I was really hoping for it to be the tailless delta shown in the earliest concepts, however I can understand that the safer bet is the way to go.



Tell me about it, I still route for it especially as a stealth design, since lesser reflecting areas in form of fins should benefit the low RCS idea. It might pose difficulties for a stealth fighter, that already come with a pretty heavy emptyweight at the center, which only will be increased if you aim for a large delta wing. I guess that was one of the problems Boeings X32 had too and we currently see the problem with LCA to an extend as well, when the size of the wing can create problems with drag. But still, with the it's nuts if we don't take the advantages of the FGFA project as well as what we gained from 30 years LCA into develop something that combines both, rather than doing what everybody do.
On the other hand, there must be something about it, why the F22, the KFX,TFX, ATD-X and AMCA have pretty much the same twin engine and wing design configuration.



Echo_419 said:


> WTH we even the Turks & Koreans are beating us



What do you mean with even? The Koreans are technically and industrially ahead of us, the Turks play it smart and make things work contrary to us, so both projects are far more likely to be successful than AMCA developed by ADA / DRDO.



ni8mare said:


> how??



To negotiate on licence production, ToT or joint development, because Turkey and S. Korea might get away with that deals and all we can hope for, is to order the engines they develop too.



sreekumar said:


> Indian aerospace field is totally sucks.
> They changed AMCA design a lot frequently due to changing requirements and uncertainity.

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## Water Car Engineer

Screw that!! FY-23 diamond wings all the way man!!


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## greatone

Lets divide ADA in two and have two competing designs


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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> Screw that!! FY-23 diamond wings all the way man!!



Actually, the ealier design, just as the YF23 once was a tailless design too. Anyway, both are far away from the YF23 and have no common design goals, sadly too little out of the box design these days.



greatone said:


> Lets divide ADA in two and have two competing designs


We already have 2 design houses, ADA and HAL, we just don't use them properly.


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## sancho

AMCA,TFX, KFX, ATD-X, all similar medium class twin engined fighters.

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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> To negotiate on licence production, ToT or joint development, because Turkey and S. Korea might get away with that deals and all we can hope for, is to order the engines they develop too.



but requirement may not be same ....that might led into different engine development


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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> but requirement may not be same ....that might led into different engine development



By the fact that they all have similar size, weight and twin engine config, they all consider the same engines current EJ200 or uprated EJ230, current GE414 or uprated EPE.


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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> By the fact that they all have similar size, weight and twin engine config, they all consider the same engines current EJ200 or uprated EJ230, current GE414 or uprated EPE.


how so?....... TFX KFX will be closer to 10 tonne............where AMCA will be closer to ~14 tonne ............for former case a lower thrust engine will be needed compared to in case of AMCA more higher thrust will be needed........don't you think


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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> how so?....... TFX KFX will be closer to 10 tonne............where AMCA will be closer to ~14 tonne ............for former case a lower thrust engine will be needed compared to in case of AMCA more higher thrust will be needed........don't you think



Depends on the performance you want, the KFX might be ok with the normal GE 414, since they seems to aim on carrying only A2A loads internally, not to mention that the EPE will offer downsides in cost terms. The TFX however will be pretty much in the size of AMCA and surely aim on more performance than the F35 offers.


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## 55100864

Why send to US for wind tunnel test?


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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> Depends on the performance you want, the KFX might be ok with the normal GE 414, since they seems to aim on carrying only A2A loads internally, not to mention that the EPE will offer downsides in cost terms. The *TFX however will be pretty much in the size of AMCA* (???)and surely aim on more performance than the F35 offers.


*do you know the weight of TFX that will make thing clear........... *
but its wrong think that we not be going for performance
*
*
and as you said it will lead into bad position for AMCA..........but i think ADA can still get into JV GE for engine because TAI still not declared their choice and we already did RFI for engine required for AMCA
if they choses GE than we can still might get into JV with TAI & GE ...if we move quickly

It also need to remember that we are buying F414 so there is plenty chance that we will be going for GE........ actually we should (hell with RFI and negotiation when we are already buying from them) considering that we will have a assembly line for GE F414.......


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## sancho

55100864 said:


> Why send to US for wind tunnel test?



Because DRDO doesn't learn from mistakes and keeps making developments dependent on the US with the risk of denied support.



ni8mare said:


> *do you know the weight of TFX that will make thing clear........... *
> but its wrong think that we not be going for performance



No I think they are still in concept stage, but decided for the twin engine varient now. And what DRDO thinks is always not really important. They wanted to develop it as a strike fighter to make it look comparable to F35 with low performance, but IAF requires multi role fighter with advanced performance like Supercruise and now even TVC is considered. All that and the weight of the fighter will make high thrust inevitable, but what comes out of it at the end is a different issue.



ni8mare said:


> and as you said it will lead into bad position for AMCA..........but i think ADA can still get into JV GE for engine



They will be able to fund the EPE engine, but only as long as Korea doesn't do it. That's the point, if they go for the EPE first, they will supply export customers and Boeing is trying hard to combine the Korean project with F18SH upgrades. 



ni8mare said:


> because TAI still not declared their choice



The latest news is, that they signed MoUs with Eurojet for joint systems of the EJ 200 and that hints to a clear direction. Saab as a partner for the design, Eurojet as the engine provider, some parts from the US..., as I said, they get things done.


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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> Because DRDO doesn't learn from mistakes and keeps making developments dependent on the US with the risk of denied support.


this is very important point you have said ........but i think EPE will going to be taken .....courtesy F414=> and their investment and infra


> No I think they are still in concept stage, but decided for the twin engine varient now. And what DRDO thinks is always not really important. They wanted to develop it as a strike fighter to make it look comparable to F35 with low performance, but IAF requires multi role fighter with advanced performance like Supercruise and now even TVC is considered. All that and the weight of the fighter will make high thrust inevitable, but what comes out of it at the end is a different issue.


ada will come with heavier medium combat fighter ,,like F18SH... i think...actually they should


> They will be able to fund the EPE engine, but only as long as Korea doesn't do it. That's the point, if they go for the EPE first, they will supply export customers and Boeing is trying hard to combine the Korean project with F18SH upgrades.


yeah that true........i don't know what is the use of RFI........directly negotiate like others are doing ...negotiating takes lot of time


> The latest news is, that they signed MoUs with Eurojet for joint systems of the EJ 200 and that hints to a clear direction. Saab as a partner for the design, Eurojet as the engine provider, some parts from the US..., as I said, they get things done.


i think ADA should take help from boeing for design and GE for engine

boeing have dealt with heavier medium aircraft, AMCA will be in that class only .....F18 = good for navalising AMCA
they have worked with EPE engine
and GE for engine development ....i know it will be depending americans but when you have already buying engine wht not use the opportunity in fullest


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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> i know it will be depending americans but when you have already buying engine wht not use the opportunity in fullest



Their relations to Korea are closer and they still don't share any critical techs with us, so don't expect too much there. They won't have anything against us funding their EPE engine upgrade, but they won't share any of it's techs, so we won't get any benefits for our engine programs. We hardly assemble the GE engine in India, while the EJ offer included ToT and joint development of critical techs and we should had taken that offer back then and combined it with a joint development for Kaveri. It would be silly if we make the same mistake for AMCA with an US engine again, but with DRDO's habit of looking to the US, it wouldn't be surprising too.

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> Turkey is closing in on teaming up with Eurojet, to provide them with an engine for their coming stealth fighter, while GE is the most likely choice for South Korea for their KFX stealth fighter, which puts India even more in the bad position for AMCA. It will be funny if we reject Rafale and already cancelled the Kaveri engine, to be forced to take Snecmas offer to jointly develop the Kaveri K10 engine at the end, which might not even provide the necessary thrust.


What about Pratt & Whitney or Russian?


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## kirankumar299

Why cant we use the snecma engines which are on Rafale...if the MMRCA deal is done. We also get TOT on that.


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## Rockstar

Dillinger said:


> I like the latest iteration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The angle of the canted vertical stabilizers. The fuselage and wing form. Unfortunately we cannot see the inlets from the front to fully appreciate the unique shape.
> 
> The Americans bring with them unique opportunities. At this point it is likely, not guaranteed, that GE will provide the engines, perhaps the EPE. There are certain "additions" which would add real value to the AMCA, think the EODAS and integrated Northrop ThNDR. We were willing to go through the lengthy process of integrating third party OEM equipment on an imported platform (MKI), we should be willing to do the same for our indigenous platform as well.




The nose section looks so elongated and looks like it is pointing out from the main airframe. It would look even better if they shortened the nose length.


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## Dillinger

Rockstar said:


> The nose section looks so elongated and looks like it is pointing out from the main airframe. It would look even better if they shortened the nose length.



I wasn't commenting upon my appreciation in terms of aesthetics but in terms of edge alignment and contouring. This is a good effort, in terms of air-frame shaping, for LO/VLO performance.



sancho said:


> Their relations to Korea are closer and they still don't share any critical techs with us, so don't expect too much there. They won't have anything against us funding their EPE engine upgrade, but they won't share any of it's techs, so we won't get any benefits for our engine programs. We hardly assemble the GE engine in India, while the EJ offer included ToT and joint development of critical techs and we should had taken that offer back then and combined it with a joint development for Kaveri. It would be silly if we make the same mistake for AMCA with an US engine again, but with DRDO's habit of looking to the US, it wouldn't be surprising too.



And had we accepted the EJ offer what would we have gotten? *Why does this false definition of ToT continue to prevail?* The Eurojet consortium offered, like another OEM, the "ToT" required to manufacture engines in country and overhaul them given the setting up of adequate facilities (or expansion in the existing Koraput facility). They, and no other OEM, has or *EVER* will offer the _know how_ and the _know why _required for developing our own engine, at best they will offer to use the EJ core for any prospective future engine and even when we go about machining the hot section components for the engine (like we do for the Sukhois) the concerned materials and alloys shall be sourced from the consortium itself. 

In such circumstances why should we diversify the type (by origin) of engines we are to use and by extension maintain? The Americans shall power the LCA, so it behooves us to look at commonality and the therefore GE's EPE might well be the required solution.

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## greatone

Rockstar said:


> The nose section looks so elongated and looks like it is pointing out from the main airframe. It would look even better if they shortened the nose length.





Dillinger said:


> I wasn't commenting upon my appreciation in terms of aesthetics but in terms of edge alignment and contouring. This is a good effort, in terms of air-frame shaping, for LO/VLO performance.









A long fuselage along with short, stubby wings gives the aircraft ability to fly at extremely high speeds, reach top speed very quickly and perhaps a high rate of climb but sacrificing some agility in the process.
Like a supersonic dart, if you will.
This is a deliberate design choice they have made.It indicates they have envisaged the interceptor role for the AMCA, among others.

I think they are counting on twin vertical stabilizers, large tail wings and 3-D thrust vectoring to compensate the poor maneuverability of diamond shaped( sort of) wings and long fuselage.

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> What about Pratt & Whitney or Russian?



That would be mainly heavy class engines, which then would mean a single engine medium class design, which I personally would prefer, for lower operational cost reasons and if we want even higher commonality to FGFA by using the Type 30 AMCA too.



kirankumar299 said:


> Why cant we use the snecma engines which are on Rafale...if the MMRCA deal is done. We also get TOT on that.



The current engine offers only 75kN thrust, which is good for a light fighter like Rafale, but not for a heavier stealth fighter that AMCA is meant to be. The current thrust requirement for AMCA is around 110kN x 2 engines, which basically limits the options to the GE 414 EPE or the EJ 230, both upgraded versions of the currently available once. 

@ni8mare 

Found this specboard from GE for the KFX, which shows what kind of engines variants might be on offer for them:

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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> T
> @ni8mare
> 
> Found this specboard from GE for the KFX, which shows what kind of engines variants might be on offer for them:
> View attachment 185739


so they have different version of KF........so selection of engine will depends on the type of KF is considered

we should start JV with GE KFX quickly..........rather than waiting for negotiation......... if we want to use the GE assembly for engine that is being set in india for F414....

i think going for eurojet now is waste of time money and resources at this point .......since is EPE is evolution of F404>>F414>>F423(?) we are already familiar with it ..what do you think?


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> And had we accepted the EJ offer what would we have gotten? *Why does this false definition of ToT continue to prevail?* The Eurojet consortium offered, like another OEM, the "ToT" required to manufacture engines in country and overhaul them given the setting up of adequate facilities (or expansion in the existing Koraput facility). They, and no other OEM, has or *EVER* will offer the _know how_ and the _know why _required for developing our own engine, at best they will offer to use the EJ core for any prospective future engine and even when we go about machining the hot section components for the engine (like we do for the Sukhois) the concerned materials and alloys shall be sourced from the consortium itself.
> 
> In such circumstances why should we diversify the type (by origin) of engines we are to use and by extension maintain? The Americans shall power the LCA, so it behooves us to look at commonality and the therefore GE's EPE might well be the required solution.



Your assumption that we don't get ToT is based on the past experience with licence productions, fair enough, but what you miss is the difference of what was „allowed“ to us in the past in licence productions and what is on „offer“ to us today!
Back than we hardly had the chance to buy state of the art arms, let alone techs via licence production, which actually only changed with the MKI deal around 2000. Today 1.5 decades later, with our market, the economical and political improvements, things are different and we have much more access to arms and even key techs, as well as development partners. We just have to use that advantage in the best manner! The LCA MK2 engine competition showed this:



> Eurojet, on the other hand, has pitched the EJ200 with the very tempting notion of a dedicated EJ200 global production line in India, *along with true qualitative technology transfer, that will include single crystal technology to HAL and GTRE*.



LIVEFIST: BUZZ: Eurojet Throttles Up For Tejas? [And Therefore, MMRCA?]


Apart from that, they offered the joined design and development of modifications, like a naval version for N-LCA or the 3D TVC option, that they have developed to Tech Demo level so far. Are you really telling me that this was not a huge chance for India to get crucial techs that we lack today? Just compare the current sitation now and what could be the sitation if we played our cards right:

- 99 x GE 414G engines selected for LCA MK2, with basic ToT to assemble the engines in India
- no technical gains for indigenous engine programs
- the 414G doesn't offer enough thrust for AMCA, therefor the AMCA program don't gain from that engine
- GE is no option to help Kaveri and now the indigenous program is cancelled after wasting more than a decade and millions

*=> limited ToT, no gain for AMCA, no gain for Kaveri!*


Now if we had selected the EJ200:

- 99 x EJ200 engines selected for LCA MK2, with crucial ToT and customisation options, depending on our needs
- high technical gains for indigenous engine programs
- Eurojet could had helped the Kaveri program, via a joint Kaveri / EJ 230 development 
- the EJ200 doesn't offer enough thrust for AMCA, but the TVC development would had improved LCAs maneuverability and our capability to develop an own engine with such a feature
*
=> high ToT, TVC gain for LCA and AMCA, crucial techs and possibly even joint development for Kaveri!*


In short, all our indigenous programs could had benefited from that single procurement, if we had combined the licence production order of 99 engines, with the offered joined developments into a joint Kaveri engine development!
Btw, Eurojet was not the only choice to offer us comparable advantages! Snecma offered us a co-development for Kaveri, because they couldn't offer an off the shelf engine for LCA MK2, Klimov offered us the RD 33MK or better an RD93 varient based on the MK for LCA MK2 and a joint Kaveri development as well. And since the MK is already navalised, we could have used the same engines in N-LCA MK2 and Mig 29K in single and twin engine varients, but we have rejected Russian technology right away, only because we thought it's inferior to western techs, ignoring the fact that it's still far better than anything we can develop on our own. 
All this shows the difference of ToT and access to techs we have today, compared to the past. Of course, we will have to pay high costs to get them and of course we will have to negotiate hard to get to the crucial techs, but the fact remains "*we can get them today*"!



ni8mare said:


> so they have different version of KF........so selection of engine will depends on the type of KF is considered



I guess that was a proposal of the initial concept stage and to cover different thrust classes in their offer, but it's clear how interested GE is in that project.



ni8mare said:


> i think going for eurojet now is waste of time money and resources at this point .......since is EPE is evolution of F404>>F414>>F423(?) we are already familiar with it ..what do you think?



Basically as said in my post to Agent_47 and Dillinger, GE will offer us enough thrust if we pay for it, but the gain for AMCA and for indigenous engine efforts will be limited and I still think we should go for a single engine design.


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## SpArK

*Large scale model of AMCA revealed. Will be declared as official project soon.*

Preliminary design phase is completed and now DRDO is looking for the approval from Central govt for Funding.

Aircraft is having a fine srealthy airframe with a diamond like trapezoidal wings similar to that of F-22 RAPTOR and F-35, 
wing having little or no overall sweep, such that the leading edge sweeps back and the trailing edge sweeps forward. 

Defence Minister Said the Central government is ready to give special attention to the project,also
And Import of parts, which constitutes 60% of LCA will be unacceptable in case of AMCA.

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## A$HU

SpArK said:


> *Large scale model of AMCA revealed. Will be declared as official project soon.*
> 
> Preliminary design phase is completed and now DRDO is looking for the approval from Central govt for Funding.
> 
> Aircraft is having a fine srealthy airframe with a diamond like trapezoidal wings similar to that of F-22 RAPTOR and F-35,
> wing having little or no overall sweep, such that the leading edge sweeps back and the trailing edge sweeps forward.
> 
> Defence Minister Said the Central government is ready to give special attention to the project,also
> And Import of parts, which constitutes 60% of LCA will be unacceptable in case of AMCA.


More pics?


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Large scale model of AMCA revealed. Will be declared as official project soon.*
> 
> Preliminary design phase is completed and now DRDO is looking for the approval from Central govt for Funding.
> 
> Aircraft is having a fine srealthy airframe with a diamond like trapezoidal wings similar to that of F-22 RAPTOR and F-35,
> wing having little or no overall sweep, such that the leading edge sweeps back and the trailing edge sweeps forward.
> 
> Defence Minister Said the Central government is ready to give special attention to the project,also
> And Import of parts, which constitutes 60% of LCA will be unacceptable in case of AMCA.






> it appears that *the design hasn't significantly changed* since the concept's last 'outing' two years ago...
> 
> ...*The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) will, by August this year* if everything goes to plan, look to *obtain official project sanction from the MoD and funding to the tune of $800 million for the preliminary engineering & development phase*...
> 
> ...The folks at ADA and other agencies may have been shaken up by the minister's terse manner, but the message is an important one. From where the programme stands, it may seem impossible for it to gallop along with what the government, for now informally, wants from it. But if that's the kick in the aft section that a crucial aerospace programme of strategic importance needs, then bring it on.



LIVEFIST: Spotted: New Model Of India's 5th Gen AMCA; To Be Official Project Soon

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> LIVEFIST: Spotted: New Model Of India's 5th Gen AMCA; To Be Official Project Soon



Let's hope new management in MOD will bring things in order


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Let's hope new management in MOD will bring things in order



It's not the management of the MoD that's developed LCA earlier, or will develop AMCA, it's the management of DRDO and that's that have to improve dramatically!

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## Water Car Engineer

It looks so abnormally long.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> It's not the management of the MoD that's developed LCA earlier, or will develop AMCA, it's the management of DRDO and that's that have to improve dramatically!



I meant management of MOD will bring order in Management of DRDO & HAL

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## topgun047

greatone said:


> A long fuselage along with short, stubby wings gives the aircraft ability to fly at extremely high speeds, reach top speed very quickly and perhaps a high rate of climb but sacrificing some agility in the process.
> Like a supersonic dart, if you will.
> This is a deliberate design choice they have made.It indicates they have envisaged the interceptor role for the AMCA, among others.
> 
> I think they are counting on twin vertical stabilizers, large tail wings and 3-D thrust vectoring to compensate the poor maneuverability of diamond shaped( sort of) wings and long fuselage.



Short, stubby wings also help fit more planes on an aircraft carrier and alleviates the need of developing folding wings.
Its a balanced design overall, omnirole in exotic terms :p


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## Etilla

Will AMCA fly in the next decade?


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## sancho

topgun047 said:


> Short, stubby wings also help fit more planes on an aircraft carrier and alleviates the need of developing folding wings.



That's not correct, since it also reduce the fuel capacity of the wings, that's why naval varients of land based stealth fighters usually are designed with larger but folding wings.

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## topgun047

sancho said:


> That's not correct, since it also reduced the fuel capacity of the wings, that's why naval varients of land based stealth fighters usually are designed with larger but folding wings.



Why do naval variants need more fuel ?
I think they have larger wings because of short take off distance.
Is there any plan to change the wing size or develop folding wings for AMCA ?
I believe they should tinker as little with the original design for naval version.


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## xyxmt

how many paper plane project India has


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## sancho

topgun047 said:


> Why do naval variants need more fuel ?



Because they have to operate with less tanker support and to project the power far away from the carrier itself. That makes higher fuel capacity important for carrier fighters, one reason why LCA MK2 will get additional fuel tanks too, which is a IN requirement. 



topgun047 said:


> Is there any plan to change the wing size or develop folding wings for AMCA ?
> I believe they should tinker as little with the original design for naval version.



First they need to consider a naval varient, before they can think about folding wings and even if there are thoughts about it by DRDO, the IN has not made official statements on that. Sadly DRDO follows the same silly development approach as they did with LCA and will try to develop a naval varient from the land based, which is far more difficult than doing it the other way around.

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## topgun047

sancho said:


> Because they have to operate with less tanker support and to project the power far away from the carrier itself. That makes higher fuel capacity important for carrier fighters, one reason why LCA MK2 will get additional fuel tanks too, which is a IN requirement.
> 
> 
> 
> First they need to consider a naval varient, before they can think about folding wings and even if there are thoughts about it by DRDO, the IN has not made official statements on that. Sadly DRDO follows the same silly development approach as they did with LCA and will try to develop a naval varient from the land based, which is far more difficult than doing it the other way around.



I think they should forget about extra fuel capacity for N-AMCA, just focus on getting it out as early as possible.
use it as a pure interceptor but get naval version early.
If there is demand from IN, they can modify it to increase range at a later date.

And perhaps the humongously long fuselage will carry enough fuel.


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## gslv mk3

xyxmt said:


> how many paper plane project India has



We have several successful projects and several new projects in the pipeline..Anyway modern aircraft design is a paperless process

Why so butthurt ?

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## Dandpatta

^^^ It's not about being butt hurt. It's the extra helping of "Gosht" in the diet that causes them constipation.

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## Badbadman

gslv mk3 said:


> We have several successful projects and several new projects in the pipeline..Anyway modern aircraft design is a paperless process
> 
> Why so butthurt ?


 Good one


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## sancho

Let me quote myself wrt Turkey and the TFX engine choice:



sancho said:


> The latest news is, *that they signed MoUs with Eurojet for joint systems of the EJ 200 and that hints to a clear direction. *Saab as a partner for the design, Eurojet as the engine provider, some parts from the US..., *as I said, they get things done*.



=>



> *Eurojet May Find Role in Turk Fighter*
> 
> European engine-maker Eurojet Turbo may find a role in powering what would become Turkey's first indigenous fighter jet, industry sources and analysts said...
> 
> ..."The intended collaboration is primarily based on the EJ200 engine, which is currently employed on the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet and may find application in the Turkish TFX program. The parties have also agreed to explore further opportunities targeting the global market."...
> 
> ....*Turkey has said it is looking for alternative programs to locally develop an engine for the TFX through national engine-maker Tusas Turkish Engine Industries (TEI).
> "Eurojet's partnership with Aselsan may lead to a coproduction deal with TEI*," the aerospace expert said. "In such a program, Aselsan would be tasked to manufacture electronic parts for the engine."...



Eurojet May Find Role in Turk Fighter


So why we scrap our own failed engine program and now send out RFIs for suitable foreign engines in licence production deals to cover the mistakes, other countries show us how it's done the the right way. Trying to team up with foreign experienced partners, to jointly develop and produce an engine. Another chance missed.


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## skysthelimit

*ADA Details Stealth AMCA Engine Plans *




ADA seems to have refined and narrowed its AMCA powerplant options. *The 25-tonne class AMCA is to be fitted with a 110-kN engine*. However, currently no 110-kN class engine is available in the world market. 

*So ADA will design the fighter around a 110-kN engine, but use a 90-kN off-the-shelf engine to power prototypes of the aircraft, giving itself time to develop a 110-kN engine.*

ADA Director PS Subramanyam told The Hindu that it would be prudent to procure and integrate an available 90-kN engine into the aircraft so to ensure that the project was not held up.

“Since the fighter has been designed to take on an engine with a higher thrust, we can integrate it as and when such an engine is available. This is what has been done by Dassault in the Rafael development program,” he says.

Elaborating on AMCA powerplant options, K. Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero R&D) told the press that since no 110-kN engine is available off the shelf, GTRE will partner with a US or Russian engine manufacturer to develop such an engine - mostly within India - to power AMCA production variants.

“We have asked for their proposals [and will go ahead with] whoever has a better offer, time frame and cost," he said. The goal is to integrate the new engine into the aircraft by 2020-21.

DRDO and IAF officials will hold talks with two manufacturers during Aero India 2015 - General Electric of US and Klimo of Russia.

Interestingly, Tamilmani didn't mention French Snecma - an early front runner for co-producing an AMCA engine with GTRE.

It may be noted that the joint statement released during US President Barack Obama's visit to India from January 25 to 27, 2015 referred to US - Indian collaboration in developing a hot engine (A reference to a jet engine with high turbine temperatures and greater thrust.)

It was earlier reported that the AMCA will be powered by a new engine that GTRE plans to develop with the help of one or more foreign consultants, Snecma being one of them.

*On January 8, 2015 the TOI reported that five to six global aero-engine manufacturers have made presentation to ADA for the AMCA engine. It is likely that ADA has now narrowed down its options based on the presentations.*

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: ADA Details Stealth AMCA Engine Plans

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## Abingdonboy

If you've had enough of models and artist's impressions, tough! It's AeroIndia time, and that means the customary flood of official 3D art, wind-tunnel models etc. Got my hands on the brochure on the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) that'll be handed out at Aero India this year: it contains these two impressions of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, the country's indigenous fifth generation concept stealth fighter, with the apparently frozen airframe config.

The baffling image though is the second one (below), which it calls the AMCA's 'non-stealth configuration', deploying external weapons and stores including drop tanks, JDAM-like PGMs, air-to-air missiles and two pods. At any rate, it's an indication of the design thought process: That designers at the ADA are looking at giving the AMCA external hardpoints in addition to internal bays (which makes little sense given what hardpoints do for radar signature). The other possibility is a variant that deploys only external stores, and has no internal bays (which makes even littler sense for an aircraft intended to be a low-observable platform). Not sure what to make of this.



The brochure comes with some updated literature on profile and capabilities the team is looking to give the AMCA. Brochures at air shows are usually the last place you want to look for solid data on concept programmes, but here's the latest from Team AMCA:



LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: India's 5th Gen Fighter Concept & Its Non-Stealth Avatar

Shiv is being a little obtuse, even the PAK-FA, F-22 and F-35 as designed to have external stores for specific missions, it makes sense the AMCA will have this capability.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Shiv is being a little obtuse, even the PAK-FA, F-22 and F-35 as designed to have external stores for specific missions, it makes sense the AMCA will have this capability.



True, but it's still nonsense to use AMCA in IAF for any mission that would require external loads (lower risk missions), since we would still operate Jags, LCAs and MKIs (hopefully MMRCAs too), by the time they hope AMCA will be available. All of them would not only be more than sufficient to do CAS, but even more cost-effective to operate than an AMCA. If we also will have armed Rustom H drones, CAS will be completely outsourced to unmanned aircrafts anyway. This again shows the lack of comprehension within ADA and DRDO, to look what IAF / IN actually needs and not to what others have, which ADA / DRDO try to match too.

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## possumlot

sancho said:


> True, but it's still nonsense to use AMCA in IAF for any mission that would require external loads (lower risk missions), since we would still operate Jags, LCAs and MKIs (hopefully MMRCAs too), by the time they hope AMCA will be available. All of them would not only be more than sufficient to do CAS, but even more cost-effective to operate than an AMCA. If we also will have armed Rustom H drones, CAS will be completely outsourced to unmanned aircrafts anyway. This again shows the lack of comprehension within ADA and DRDO, to look what IAF / IN actually needs and not to what others have, which ADA / DRDO try to match too.



Then the Onus is on the IAF to guide ADA and DRDO back to what they realistically need. 

Lets hope they measure up to their responsibilities. If not then MMRCA cancellation might just be the Kick they require.


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## Agent_47




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## sancho

possumlot said:


> Then the Onus is on the IAF to guide ADA and DRDO back to what they realistically need.
> 
> Lets hope they measure up to their responsibilities. If not then MMRCA cancellation might just be the Kick they require.



That's sadly not how it works in India, since not the forces decide about what developments should be started, it's DRDO and HAL. That's why you have AMCA, AWACS India or HTT 40 in concept stages, while IAF wants / needs none of them. Just why IN is not getting an indigenous 5th gen fighter anytime soon and needs to support a useless N-LCA, although a naval stealth fighter is the need of the hour, but still DRDO is only focusing AMCA as an air force fighter.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> True, but it's still nonsense to use AMCA in IAF for any mission that would require external loads (lower risk missions), since we would still operate Jags, LCAs and MKIs (hopefully MMRCAs too), by the time they hope AMCA will be available. All of them would not only be more than sufficient to do CAS, but even more cost-effective to operate than an AMCA. If we also will have armed Rustom H drones, CAS will be completely outsourced to unmanned aircrafts anyway. This again shows the lack of comprehension within ADA and DRDO, to look what IAF / IN actually needs and not to what others have, which ADA / DRDO try to match too.


Sir I don't agree, what you say is correct but it is better to design such capabilities into the airframe from the start just in case, you then build in added utility into the AMCA and one day the LCA, MKI, Jags (sooner than later) and MMRCA will be out of service and the AMCA is being brought in as a replacement/future generation a/c so needs to be able to stand on its own two feet.

It's better to have and not need then need and not have IMHO.


If the designers hadn't built in the provision of external stores I can imagine the bashing they would get for not thinking ahead or designing an all round product.

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## SpArK

Instead of going for Mk-III or even MK-II of the Light fighter, its better to have AMCA non stealthy ....design looks good.

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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> Instead of going for Mk-III or even MK-II of the Light fighter, its better to have AMCA non stealthy ....design looks good.


The funny part is there is no such thing as the AMCA "non-stealthy"!


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## SpArK

Abingdonboy said:


> The funny part is there is no such thing as the AMCA "non-stealthy"!



Its just a term as we have not dished out a name for it yet.

Do you agree on light, medium heavy weight , flyweight categorizing or going for this on full swing all the way with all the resources.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir I don't agree, what you say is correct *but it is better to design such capabilities into the airframe from the start* just in case



What's there to design? Any fighter will have external weapon stations, that's nothing special at all. The point is, that ADA / DRDO are not looking at what IAF and IN actually needs and developing AMCA basically on the base of what they see somewhere else! Remember, their main argument for AMCA was the F35 and that the AMCA should be a strike fighter to complement FGFA similarly to how the F35 does it to F22. That however is not even close to be the case!
Neither is AMCA planned as a single engined fighter, which would reduce operational costs, nor does the idea of a limited capable strike fighter fit to IAFs requirements, which is why AMCA now is meant to be a proper multi role fighter, with the usual good flight performance that our forces demands. So that again is contrary to F35 and even to FGFA, since supercruise or TVC capabilities are available in the latter too. Also from the speculated weapon bay configs of AMCA and FGFA, there is no reason to belive that AMCA would offer any advantage to IAF in strike missions. And we both agree that it's a mistake to devlop it as an Air Force fighter again and then go the harder way to navalise a varient, because that's what they already learned in the NLCA development and still they do the same mistake again.

So at the end of the day, AMCA will offer pretty much what FGFA offers, just with less performance, will do lower end A2A and A2G roles at much higher costs than the rest of the fleet can and don't even add any advantage to IN so far.
It couldn't go more against the needs of the forces than this!


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## possumlot

sancho said:


> That's sadly not how it works in India, since not the forces decide about what developments should be started, it's DRDO and HAL. That's why you have AMCA, AWACS India or HTT 40 in concept stages, while IAF wants / needs none of them. Just why IN is not getting an indigenous 5th gen fighter anytime soon and needs to support a useless N-LCA, although a naval stealth fighter is the need of the hour, but still DRDO is only focusing AMCA as an air force fighter.



DRDO and HAL decides the start of any development because they show LEADERSHIP to start things. That is how it works in the Real World. 

The rest of the Losers just bitch and complain. Guess what that makes the IAF ? 

Papa's spoilt brat who got the chicks in college stumbles into the real world and finds that its the Nerds who call the shots. The brat is still crying Foul and throwing tantrums with Papa who is soon loosing patience.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Instead of going for Mk-III or even MK-II of the Light fighter, *its better to have AMCA non stealthy* ....design looks good.



Non stealthy would mean without shaped airframe, which would make it even more like EF or Rafale, a twin engine medium class fighter, which can't be "simply" done as a modification of the LCA design unless that was considered from scratch.
LCA MK2 as an upgrade to fix the problems of MK1 was inevitable, but instead of aiming for the minimum needed upgrades, we made it far more complicated again which is why it will come so late. But lets assume you are the Air Chief by 2028 and India is in war, which aircraft would you choose for which mission, by taking capability and operational costs in mind?

Fleet: FGFA, MKI, AMCA, MMRCA, LCA, Jaguar, AURA, Rustom H (weaponized)

Air superiority 
Mini AWACS
Deep-, pre-emptivestrike
SEAD
CAS
Reconnaissance



possumlot said:


> DRDO and HAL decides the start of any development because they show LEADERSHIP to start things.



It's not about who starts a development, but how it is done and on what base? You develop a fighter with a customer in mind and by evaluating it's operational needs. That's howver not what what we see in AMCA, nor AWACS India and even what we have seen in LCA, since several of the airframe changes could had been avoided if it not were designed as "worlds smallest and lightests" fighter. All they take is basic ASR from IAF and IN, while they decide about design or operational idea behind it and that's where the problem starts and where we have to include the forces far more into the development, to get what they need and reduce development problems.


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## possumlot

sancho said:


> It's not about who starts a development, but how it is done and on what base? You develop a fighter with a customer in mind and by evaluating it's operational needs. That's howver not what what we see in AMCA, nor AWACS India and even what we have seen in LCA, since several of the airframe changes could had been avoided if it not were designed as "worlds smallest and lightests" fighter. All they take is basic ASR from IAF and IN, while they decide about design or operational idea behind it and that's where the problem starts and where we have to include the forces far more into the development, to get what they need and reduce development problems.



IAF is the one who publishes their expectation, which is usually unrealistic. DRDO and HAL works to achieve it while IAF waits for them to fail in the sidelines and then complain and bitch about the failures.

Show me the note that IAF sent to the MOD or any demand they made asking DRDO NOT to make "worlds smallest and lightest fighter".

The Forces pretend to be "customers" which has to be "serviced" by the DRDO and HAL  ...... well guess what, both DRDO and HAL are both govt. controlled agencies, just like IAF. There are no "customers" here. That feeling of "smugness" that IAF feels soon melts away when they realize that DRDO and HAL don't give a $hit about them. Then they start howling for attention and complaining.

If IAF does not want to be short changed, it is they who have to take responsibility and integrate themselves into the development program. No one is going to send them an invitation.

You want it ? you come and get it.

Reality is IAF Does NOT want it. They want Foreign maal. Plain an simple. They like short cuts. After all, why bother developing your own aerospace industry ? That is not the job of the IAF  ........... for some strange reason people think its the job of the DRDO and HAL. 

IAF needs to realize that its a NATIONAL MISSION, not a DRDO pet project. Just like the Indian Navy realized it AGES ago.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> . But lets assume you are the Air Chief by 2028 and India is in war, which aircraft would you choose for which mission, by taking capability and operational costs in mind?
> 
> Fleet: FGFA, MKI, AMCA, MMRCA, LCA, Jaguar, AURA, Rustom H (weaponized)
> 
> .




Air superiority - FGFA , AMCA,MKI
Mini AWACS MKI,FGFA,MMRCA
Deep-, pre-emptivestrike- MMRCA, AMCA,MKI
SEAD - MMRCA, AMCA
CAS - MMRCA, FGFA,MKI
Reconnaissance- AMCA, FGFA, MMRCA


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Air superiority - FGFA , AMCA,MKI
> Mini AWACS MKI,FGFA,MMRCA
> Deep-, pre-emptivestrike- MMRCA, AMCA,MKI
> SEAD - MMRCA, AMCA
> CAS - MMRCA, FGFA,MKI
> Reconnaissance- AMCA, FGFA, MMRCA



You have missed the drones!


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> You have missed the drones!



Im not fond of drones... 

In my scheme of things as we assumed , there is no place for LCA.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Im not fond of drones...
> 
> In my scheme of things as we assumed , there is no place for LCA.



You might be in charge, but have to use the available fleet in the most effective (operational) and efficient (cost wise) way, not just based on your preference.  
So you can't move around drones in that time, which makes deep strikes, SEAD, recon and CAS missions in most cases limited to AURA or Rustom H, which are not only more capable in thes roles than manned fighters (lower RCS and detectability, more range and endurance, less risks of loosing a pilot, lower unit and operational costs). 
CAS, recon and air policing roles in peace times would be the most useful once for LCA, since it will be the most cost-effective solution in these roles from the manned fighters.
Which leaves just Air superiority and Mini AWACS, were manned fighters will offer crucial advantages, but here again, FGFA, MKIs and MMRCA offer superior or the same capabilities at less costs than AMCA and that exactly is the difference of operational reality in IAF compared to the USAF, or for AMCA and F35.
The one is simply not needed for most of the IAF operations, until the MKI will be phased out, while the F35 is meant to be the frontline fighter that has no manned alternative in the fleet.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> You might be in charge, but have to use the available fleet in the most effective (operational) and efficient (cost wise) way, not just based on your preference.
> So you can't move around drones in that time, which makes deep strikes, SEAD, recon and CAS missions in most cases limited to AURA or Rustom H, which are not only more capable in thes roles than manned fighters (lower RCS and detectability, more range and endurance, less risks of loosing a pilot, lower unit and operational costs).
> CAS, recon and air policing roles in peace times would be the most useful once for LCA, since it will be the most cost-effective solution in these roles from the manned fighters.
> Which leaves just Air superiority and Mini AWACS, were manned fighters will offer crucial advantages, but here again, FGFA, MKIs and MMRCA offer superior or the same capabilities at less costs than AMCA and that exactly is the difference of operational reality in IAF compared to the USAF, or for AMCA and F35.
> The one is simply not needed for most of the IAF operations, until the MKI will be phased out, while the F35 is meant to be the frontline fighter that has no manned alternative in the fleet.




Im sorry kuttans, *at war there is no operational* cost for me.....


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Im sorry kuttans, *at war there is no operational* cost for me.....



Well that's debatable, but more imortantly is that you can't deny operational effectivity of drones, in the mentioned roles, can you?


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Well that's debatable, but more imortantly is that you can't deny operational effectivity of drones, in the mentioned roles, can you?




Depends on the drone's capability... nothing much of what im impressed upon in our arsenal.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Depends on the drone's capability... nothing much of what im impressed upon in our arsenal.


Well even if we take basic specs to account for AURA and an armed Rustom H, they share the same advantages over it's manned counterparts AMCA and LCA.

- harder to detect
- more range and endurance
- can carry equal or larger strike loads
- are more cost-effective


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## damiendehorn

Question. What is the point of buying the Rafale and building the AMCA, they both fall into more or less the same category albit the Rafale is none stealth optimised. Why not scrap the Rafale buy and spend some of the funds to buy additional FGFA and develop the AMCA?


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## sancho

damiendehorn said:


> Question. What is the point of buying the Rafale and building the AMCA, they both fall into more or less the same category albit the Rafale is none stealth optimised. Why not scrap the Rafale buy and spend some of the funds to buy additional FGFA and develop the AMCA?



Because Rafale or EF are needed today to replace Mig 21 / 27, while AMCA (logically) is needed only around 2030 to replace MKIs.

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## damiendehorn

sancho said:


> Because Rafale or EF are needed today to replace Mig 21 / 27, while AMCA (logically) is needed only around 2030 to replace MKIs.



I thought the LCA are suppose to replace the mig 21/23/27, and the FGFA are to replace the MKI? The AMCA is a twin midium multirole stealth similar in size and role as the Rafale, not in the same category as the MKI.

The LCA should replace the mig 21/23
The AMCA or Rafale to replace the mig 27 and jaguar
FGFA should replace the MKI

There are role overlaps with the AMCA and Rafale, i think the AMCA dev may be accelerated as the Rafale buy looks tennous.


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## Water Car Engineer

Bengaluru, Feb 14: India's valiant attempt in developing a gen-next stealth fighter seems to be gathering some momentum with the scientists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claiming that the *Project Definition Phase (PDP) will be over within a year.*

While some of the stealth features remain as a ‘beyond-visual-technology' for India, even as this report is being put together, the* DRDO officials are convinced that embedding global players and increasing the private participation could well be the breakthrough in realizing their dreams.* Super-cruise, stealth and thrust vectoring are critical features DRDO would need to thrash out in the process.

While Aero India is normally seen as a ‘carnival of claims,' the DRDO top brass have put up a confident argument that the lessons learnt from developing a four-and-a-half-generation fighter (Tejas) will act as a their guiding force while entering into the hitherto unknown 5th generation terrain.

*AMCA Directorate takes confident shape*

The AMCA Directorate at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is being headed by Dr A K Ghosh. As the Project Director, he has stayed away from the media glare all these years. Access to this Directorate is absolutely restricted and any information sought on AMCA travels many channels of approvals before flying out of the ADA HQ. Even not many details are officially known about the size of the AMCA team.

*However, military sources confirm to OneIndia that a core team of 200 designers, with an additional outsourced manpower of 2000 more, is likely to work for the project during the Detailed Design Phase. Once the key players in the project get picked up, 500 more scientists will be added to the tally, working at various partner site(s).*

*Feasibility projects have been completed*

The AMCA dream has crossed the first milestone with all feasibility projects getting completed. Confirmatory tests like Low Speed Wind Tunnel test, High Speed Wind Tunnel Test and RCS Test have been carried out. "The AMCA configuration has been frozen," says Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero), DRDO.

Currently, systems and inboards finalization activities are being carried out towards system definition. Simultaneously, many advance technology projects -- mostly critical in nature -- are being pursued by the team.

*Sources say that AMCA will have to cross five key phases before becoming a reality. They include: PDP, Detail Design Phase (DDP), Development Phase, Flight Test and Certification Test. "We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.*

The DRDO hopes to move the all-important ‘Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) Paper on AMCA' seeking more funds next year. Currently the programme is being initiated with the seed money of Rs 100 crore. In the PDP, 18 systems need to be identified. Metal cutting is expected to take place after DDP and Critical Design Review (CDR).

*Nine prototypes planned*

ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, starting 2020. "Extensive private participation is envisaged throughout the project, right from DDP to production," says Subramaniam. He says that a large number of DRDO and CSIR labs, IITs, IISc and private industries are already involved in the AMCA project.

Dr Ghosh refuses to divulge many details, but says that a static model to be displayed at Aero India 2015 would roughly give an idea of the possible AMCA look. "We also have a video showing the likely features and capabilities of AMCA," he adds.

*Talks on the project during Aero India*

With India riding on an absolute dismal record in developing power plants for planes, the DRDO is hoping to make some moves and find a solution during Aero India. *"We are looking at both the US and Russia who have immense expertise in engine and stealth technology.*

Considering the high-end, critical technologies involved in a stealth programme, a government-to-government project would be the best for the AMCA engine. Make in India is our flag-bearer theme for projects now and hence AMCA will strictly travel through the same philosophy," says Dr Tamilmani.

*AMCA to be loaded with gen-next features*

* Serpentine air intake
* Internal weapon release at high speed
* Integrated flight propulsion controls
* Shared apertures
* Gen-next display systems with touch panels
* Advanced sensors like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and IRST (Infra Red Search and Track)
* MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)
* Stealth materials
* Advanced aluminum and titanium alloys
* Supercruise technology
* Advanced avionics based on IMA (Integrated Modular Architecture)
* Pilot associate to reduce pilot workload

*Crucial capabilities*

* SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense)
* DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defense)
* Precision strike

*OneIndia Exclusive: India’s stealth fighter dream moves towards reality*

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## Luca1

India need to get LCAMKI and LCA MKII ready first before worrying about AMCA. India is still trying to get RAFALE ! which is still long way from being finalize. India still font know how much tech it can get from T50, if I sufficient would force India to scrap the whole AMCA program. Maybe India should make AMCA a RAFALE class fighter instead of going for a 5th gen fighter as this is more realistic. India should be able to create its own RAFALE capable AMCA by 2030-2035 time frame. If it's trying for a 5th gen fighter without sufficient T-50 TOt, India will never build its own 5th gen fighter as this plane will exist only on paper.


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## Supply&Demand

Luca1 said:


> India need to get LCAMKI and LCA MKII ready first before worrying about AMCA. India is still trying to get RAFALE ! which is still long way from being finalize. India still font know how much tech it can get from T50, if I sufficient would force India to scrap the whole AMCA program. Maybe India should make AMCA a RAFALE class fighter instead of going for a 5th gen fighter as this is more realistic. India should be able to create its own RAFALE capable AMCA by 2030-2035 time frame. If it's trying for a 5th gen fighter without sufficient T-50 TOt, India will never build its own 5th gen fighter as this plane will exist only on paper.



thnq for ur concern..now that u hav spewed ur daily quota of verbal diarrhea, i would request u to kindly GTFO this thread!

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## SR-91

Water Car Engineer said:


> Bengaluru, Feb 14: India's valiant attempt in developing a gen-next stealth fighter seems to be gathering some momentum with the scientists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claiming that the *Project Definition Phase (PDP) will be over within a year.*
> 
> While some of the stealth features remain as a ‘beyond-visual-technology' for India, even as this report is being put together, the* DRDO officials are convinced that embedding global players and increasing the private participation could well be the breakthrough in realizing their dreams.* Super-cruise, stealth and thrust vectoring are critical features DRDO would need to thrash out in the process.
> 
> While Aero India is normally seen as a ‘carnival of claims,' the DRDO top brass have put up a confident argument that the lessons learnt from developing a four-and-a-half-generation fighter (Tejas) will act as a their guiding force while entering into the hitherto unknown 5th generation terrain.
> 
> *AMCA Directorate takes confident shape*
> 
> The AMCA Directorate at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is being headed by Dr A K Ghosh. As the Project Director, he has stayed away from the media glare all these years. Access to this Directorate is absolutely restricted and any information sought on AMCA travels many channels of approvals before flying out of the ADA HQ. Even not many details are officially known about the size of the AMCA team.
> 
> *However, military sources confirm to OneIndia that a core team of 200 designers, with an additional outsourced manpower of 2000 more, is likely to work for the project during the Detailed Design Phase. Once the key players in the project get picked up, 500 more scientists will be added to the tally, working at various partner site(s).*
> 
> *Feasibility projects have been completed*
> 
> The AMCA dream has crossed the first milestone with all feasibility projects getting completed. Confirmatory tests like Low Speed Wind Tunnel test, High Speed Wind Tunnel Test and RCS Test have been carried out. "The AMCA configuration has been frozen," says Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero), DRDO.
> 
> Currently, systems and inboards finalization activities are being carried out towards system definition. Simultaneously, many advance technology projects -- mostly critical in nature -- are being pursued by the team.
> 
> *Sources say that AMCA will have to cross five key phases before becoming a reality. They include: PDP, Detail Design Phase (DDP), Development Phase, Flight Test and Certification Test. "We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.*



Conflicting report:

*"We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.*
*
and
*
ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, *starting 2020*.

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## Luca1

SR-91 said:


> Conflicting report:
> 
> *"We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.
> 
> and
> *
> ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, *starting 2020*.



I would guess 9 prototypes of radio control planes.LOL


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## Black Widow

damiendehorn said:


> Question. What is the point of buying the Rafale and building the AMCA, they both fall into more or less the same category albit the Rafale is none stealth optimised. Why not scrap the Rafale buy and spend some of the funds to buy additional FGFA and develop the AMCA?




Time line.. Rafele will be available now while AMCA will come in next 10 years...


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## gslv mk3

Luca1 said:


> I would guess 9 prototypes of radio control planes.LOL

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## possumlot

Its interesting to note that Engine development is de-linked from the Program. I suspect it will fly with US engines.

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## Echo_419

Luca1 said:


> India need to get LCAMKI and LCA MKII ready first before worrying about AMCA. India is still trying to get RAFALE ! which is still long way from being finalize. India still font know how much tech it can get from T50, if I sufficient would force India to scrap the whole AMCA program. Maybe India should make AMCA a RAFALE class fighter instead of going for a 5th gen fighter as this is more realistic. India should be able to create its own RAFALE capable AMCA by 2030-2035 time frame. If it's trying for a 5th gen fighter without sufficient T-50 TOt, India will never build its own 5th gen fighter as this plane will exist only on paper.



Looks like you have completed this weeks quota



SR-91 said:


> Conflicting report:
> 
> *"We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.
> 
> and
> *
> ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, *starting 2020*.



I think he means the 1st flight of the prototype plane in 2020

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## sancho

damiendehorn said:


> I thought the LCA are suppose to replace the mig 21/23/27, and the FGFA are to replace the MKI?



Well then you seems to have missed the last 10 years of IAF modernisation plans. Mig 23 and 27 replacement started when the first Su 30s arrived in India and the 23s are gone already. Mig 21s will be replaced by LCA and MMRCA, FGFA replaces M2Ks and Mig 29s.



SR-91 said:


> Conflicting report:
> 
> *"We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.
> 
> and
> *
> ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, *starting 2020*.



That's basically stating the same, since Subramnaiam says "starting" 2020 = first flight. 

As former DRDO Chief Chander confirmed, operational fighters are only expected at the end of the next decade:

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions. | Page 13


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## SR-91

sancho said:


> Well then you seems to have missed the last 10 years of IAF modernisation plans. Mig 23 and 27 replacement started when the first Su 30s arrived in India and the 23s are gone already. Mig 21s will be replaced by LCA and MMRCA, FGFA replaces M2Ks and Mig 29s.
> 
> 
> 
> That's basically stating the same, since Subramnaiam says "starting" 2020 = first flight.
> 
> As former DRDO Chief Chander confirmed, operational fighters are only expected at the end of the next decade:
> 
> Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions. | Page 13



If first flight takes place in 2020, then we should see a prototype in 2018/2019. right?


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## Ind4Ever

Luca1 said:


> India need to get LCAMKI and LCA MKII ready first before worrying about AMCA. India is still trying to get RAFALE ! which is still long way from being finalize. India still font know how much tech it can get from T50, if I sufficient would force India to scrap the whole AMCA program. Maybe India should make AMCA a RAFALE class fighter instead of going for a 5th gen fighter as this is more realistic. India should be able to create its own RAFALE capable AMCA by 2030-2035 time frame. If it's trying for a 5th gen fighter without sufficient T-50 TOt, India will never build its own 5th gen fighter as this plane will exist only on paper.


Shooooo !

India this India that. .. Thanks. We know what we are doing . Non of ur business .


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> If first flight takes place in 2020, then we should see a prototype in 2018/2019. right?



That depends on the developer, look at the T50, which was available as a prototype and even done ground tests, when the whole world was speculating about fan arts and concepts in the media or the internet. We basically knew only how it really looked like, when the first flight was made. With DRDO as the developer and their love of present themselfs infront of the media, I don't think such an ammount of secrecy will be possible, but just from the timing, that's not an issue, although I wouldn't expect them to meet the 2020 aim.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> Conflicting report:
> 
> *"We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.
> 
> and
> *
> ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, *starting 2020*.



Not really conflicting at all. 2020 is 2020 whether at the start, middle or end of the year. 



possumlot said:


> Its interesting to note that Engine development is de-linked from the Program. I suspect it will fly with US engines.



They have learnt their lesson from the Kaveri-LCA mess (the Kaveri delayed the LCA project a few years for sure) and given the engine they are looking at for a 5th gen fighter will need to have features like super cruise and TVC it isn't practical to target a home-built engine for the AMCA especially not if they want the first prototypes in the air within 5 years. 


GRTE need to keep working in the background on this tech though, a nice target would be to have an Indian engine to go on the AMCA during its MLU (say in the mid/late 2030s)

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> They have learnt their lesson from the Kaveri-LCA mess



Doubtful, since the rest of the project is as badly done as they did LCA, it seems more like they have no other option now, since Kaveri is dead.

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## Ind4Ever

Most probably we will choose American engine with ability to operate under extremely hot dusty climate and extremely cold conditions. First prototype may have F414 GE engine used for MK2 later upgraded F414 will be for AMCA . No reason to go for russian engines when we already will use US engines for our future fighters .


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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Most probably we will choose American engine with ability to operate under extremely hot dusty climate and extremely cold conditions. First prototype may have F414 GE engine used for MK2 later upgraded F414 will be for AMCA . No reason to go for russian engines when we already will use US engines for our future fighters .


*Maybe* for the first few prototypes but definitely not for the production models considering the F414 doesn't offer TVC or super cruise.


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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> *Maybe* for the first few prototypes but definitely not for the production models considering the F414 doesn't offer TVC or super cruise.


There will be tweaks made on F414 platform to improve thrust by 20% with added TVC capability which will jointly developed by Indo US new defence agreement. Russians offered to tone done the current Su 30 MKI engine for AMCA and make it more economical and improve their availability . But we will go for GE . As we can go on with certain dimensions while designing and building AMCA. 

I think so . It's my personal assumption. bro .


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## Water Car Engineer

AMCA model at Air India 2015.

This seem to be the same model from the previous show 2 years ago, with the YF23 diamond wings. Recent models dont have that any more, so may not be a good representative of the frozen design.

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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> There will be tweaks made on F414 platform to improve thrust by 20% *with added TVC capability which will jointly developed by Indo US new defence agreement*


Where have you heard this? I know that the EPE and EDE proposed upgrades for increased thrust but I've not seen any plans for the addition of TVC let alone super cruise and certainly no Indian collaboration, I would be intrigued to learn how you came to this conclusion.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Where have you heard this? I know that the EPE and EDE proposed upgrades for increased thrust but I've not seen any plans for the addition of TVC let alone super cruise and certainly no Indian collaboration, I would be intrigued to learn how you came to this conclusion.



The GE414G offers Supercruise in the Gripen NG, but that is dependent on the design of the fighter too, doesn't necessarily mean that it would in AMCA. Similar, there were F18 varients with TVC systems developed, so there is at least a base know how available, if that will be shared is a very different question. But it's kind of funny that DRDO once again is so focused on US companies as partners for windtunnel testing, design or engines, although that focus caused so many problems in the LCA development too. Sanctions, not shared techs, not allowed JVs, limited licence productions, end use monitoring...

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> The GE414G offers Supercruise in the Gripen NG, but that is dependent on the design of the fighter too, doesn't necessarily mean that it would in AMCA. Similar, there were F18 varients with TVC systems developed, so there is at least a base know how available, if that will be shared is a very different question. But it's kind of funny that DRDO once again is so focused on US companies as partners for windtunnel testing, design or engines, although that focus caused so many problems in the LCA development too. Sanctions, not shared techs, not allowed JVs, limited licence productions, end use monitoring...



Maybe the DRDO is infiltrated with by American Intelligence


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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568065158011969536

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## SR-91

Agent_47 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568065158011969536

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> Where have you heard this? I know that the EPE and EDE proposed upgrades for increased thrust but I've not seen any plans for the addition of TVC let alone super cruise and certainly no Indian collaboration, I would be intrigued to learn how you came to this conclusion.



Am going by my instinct . Anyway we will take GE for to upgrade to EDE . As we need TVC and super cruise for AMCA we will Co Develop with the Americans. I don't think we will go for russian engines when we can have Americans one .


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## Echo_419

Agent_47 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568065158011969536



Looks like this is the real thing & not a mockup 
@sancho & @Abingdonboy how does this fares against other AESA radars


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## ADD BDM




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## ptltejas

@sancho @SpArK @Kinetic @Abingdonboy @DrSomnath999  and all

It is said that "Starlite is used in the F-35 Jet" ( I read it somewhere); whether can be used in AMCA;

*Starlite* is a claimed material that can withstand and insulate from extremes of heat. It was invented by amateur chemist Maurice Ward (1933–2011) during the 1970s and 1980s, and received much publicity in 1993 thanks to coverage on the science and technology show _Tomorrow's World_. The name Starlite was coined by Ward's granddaughter Kimberly.
*Under tests, Starlite was claimed to be able to withstand attack by a laser beam that could produce a temperature of 10,000 degrees Celsius *(Starlite may have reflected part of the beam, however, which would have lowered the temperature).


Starlite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maurice Ward: April 2009


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> It is said that "Starlite is used in the F-35 Jet" ( I read it somewhere); whether can be used in AMCA;



Never heared of it, but no chance that the US would share something like that.


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## ptltejas

sancho said:


> Never heared of it, but no chance that the US would share something like that.


ITS Even not In Hand of US; the private owner of technology, who never reveal the fact and technology of such, though India may privately (Secretely) contact her Daughter in Law


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## nik22

ptltejas said:


> ITS Even not In Hand of US; the private owner of technology, who never reveal the fact and technology of such, though India may privately (Secretely) contact her Daughter in Law


Let's send a HOT RAW agent for "pyar ke jaal me phasane ke liye  " .

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## Echo_419

nik22 said:


> Let's send a HOT RAW agent for "pyar ke jaal me phasane ke liye  " .



AAPko bhej dete hai

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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568320485659963392

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568468277334134784

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568452031909736448

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568472550457491456

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568473375888285696
Thats a very aggressive timeline or should i say unrealistic.
@sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy @Oscar

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## Water Car Engineer

Agent_47 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568468277334134784

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> Thats a very aggressive timeline or should i say unrealistic.



Unrealistic at least for the IOC. He is mistaken about the relaxed aerodynamic requirements, since it's more difficult to get a stealth design to provide credible performance than a non stealth design. And since design of aircrafts is a huge problem of our industry, it gets only more difficult for AMCA, not less.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568452250965684224
This part is just hilarious. He should had asked Mr Tamilmani where the infrastructure for a stealth fighter project is? Why they had to send the windtunnel model to the US? Why we have to ask foreign companies to develop a new foreign engine that suits AMCA's trust requirements? Where the know how for stealth design comes from? Where IRST or advanced EW sensors are, let alone advanced weaponary that can fit into a weapon bay, that also is not available...and most of all, if everything is available, why is the Indian contribution to FGFA so little?


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## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568079896687177729


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## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568642234251223040

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568452031909736448

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568478908842176512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568642234251223040


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## IND151

LIVEFIST: Official AMCA Video Out At AeroIndia

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## sancho

IND151 said:


> LIVEFIST: Official AMCA Video Out At AeroIndia








That looks like 2 x BVR missiles (possibly 2 x WVR missiles in side bays) and only 2 x 1000lb bombs only.


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Unrealistic at least for the IOC. He is mistaken about the relaxed aerodynamic requirements, since it's more difficult to get a stealth design to provide credible performance than a non stealth design. And since design of aircrafts is a huge problem of our industry, it gets only more difficult for AMCA, not less.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568452250965684224
> This part is just hilarious. He should had asked Mr Tamilmani where the infrastructure for a stealth fighter project is? Why they had to send the windtunnel model to the US? Why we have to ask foreign companies to develop a new foreign engine that suits AMCA's trust requirements? Where the know how for stealth design comes from? Where IRST or advanced EW sensors are, let alone advanced weaponary that can fit into a weapon bay, that also is not available...and most of all, if everything is available, why is the Indian contribution to FGFA so little?



Dr. Tamilmani was the Head of CEMILAC  .......... he is the man who knows EVERY Aerospace vendor in India and all those foreign vendors working in India. He knows exactly who can do what since his signature is on all their CEMILAC certificates. For products or for development.

I will be a little less sceptical before laughing at the man. But that is just me.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> View attachment 194969
> 
> 
> That looks like 2 x BVR missiles (possibly 2 x WVR missiles in side bays) and only 2 x 1000lb bombs only.



I guess Range of those BVRs will be 55 to 60 KM, range of WVRs will be around 30 to 37 KM.

For Pak Fa- BVR range willl be 80 KM and WVR Range-37 KM, I think.

The reason is Pak Fa bays are longer and Pak Fa is bigger so while AMCA carries 4 missiles Pak Fa will carry 6.

What do you think?



sancho said:


> View attachment 194969
> 
> 
> That looks like 2 x BVR missiles (possibly 2 x WVR missiles in side bays) and only 2 x 1000lb bombs only.



How did you get that still out of video?

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Dr. Tamilmani was the Head of CEMILAC  .......... he is the man who knows EVERY Aerospace vendor in India and all those foreign vendors working in India. He knows exactly who can do what since his signature is on all their CEMILAC certificates. For products or for development.
> 
> I will be a little less sceptical is laughing at the man. But that is just me.



He is the man that also recently said:



> While the crucial part – the engine – is hoped to be tackled at the air show, *the project is also partially handicapped by the lack of adequate transonic (at the speeds close to speed of sound) wind tunnel facilities*, Tamilmani said. At present, India has just one such wind tunnel facility – the one belonging to National Aerospace Laboratories off Old Airport Road in Bengaluru.
> 
> Wind tunnels are the crucial part of an aircraft development, in which the model of an aircraft is subject to a simulated flight by shooting high-speed winds at the aircraft frame and actually making it fly even as it is actually stationary. With this, engineers can arrive at the best designs and assess the stress that the airframe can endure – crucial in an aircraft design.
> 
> “The NAL’s wind tunnel has the capacity of just 1,500 blow-downs (the high-speed shooting) while our requirement is 11,000 a year. *In the absence of meeting such a high demand, we are forced to go abroad to have the aircraft tested,” Tamilmani said. The DRDO is currently taking the AMCA design model to Calspan Corporation’s transonic wind tunnel, the largest independently-owned wind tunnel in the USA.*
> 
> *However, the disadvantage of doing that, he said, is that “we are taking our details and concepts abroad, that too at our expense*.” Tamilmani said the government is looking at a land in Telangana to set up a national wind tunnel facility to fill the gap. “*In the next five years, we should have the facility*,” he said, hinting at the urgency of pushing the AMCA project.



 You have to look beyond the promises, since they are trying to sell the development to the MoD and IAF, without having any base to start such a development.

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> He is the man that also recently said:
> You have to look beyond the promises, since they are trying to sell the development to the MoD and IAF, without having any base to start such a development.



Boeing was building a Transonic Wind Tunnel in Hyderabad as part of its Offset Obligation. I suspect Dr. Tamilmani knows about the completion status of that 

Current MoD and PMO are already SOLD on the idea of indigenous development, There is NO need for promises. In fact, after the recent FIRING of DRDO head, the message that has gone out loud and clear is no more false promises.


----------



## sancho

IND151 said:


> I guess Range of those BVRs will be 55 to 60 KM, range of WVRs will be around 30 to 37 KM.
> 
> For Pak Fa- BVR range willl be 80 KM and WVR Range-37 KM, I think.
> 
> The reason is Pak Fa bays are longer and Pak Fa is bigger so while AMCA carries 4 missiles Pak Fa will carry 6.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get that still out of video?



It's not about the AAM's but the small bombs, while ADA / DRDO tried to sell AMCA as an F35 counterpart with proper strike capabilities. This looks more like the F22 weapon bay, which also is limited to smaller bombs only. 
Range of a BVR missile is not that important for a stealth fighter, since it has the advantage of low detectability, compared to current generation fighters. So you would rather close in into the no escape zone and launch your missiles at medium range, that at long range. MICA IR type of missiles therefor are much more useful for a stealth fighter, than an Aim 120D.
Pak Fa weapon bay is still a mystery, lets see about that. 
Copy and paste into a Paint or a similar drawing program.


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## IND151

sancho said:


> It's not about the AAM's but the small bombs, while ADA / DRDO tried to sell AMCA as an F35 counterpart with proper strike capabilities. This looks more like the F22 weapon bay, which also is limited to smaller bombs only.
> Range of a BVR missile is not that important for a stealth fighter, since it has the advantage of low detectability, compared to current generation fighters. So you would rather close in into the no escape zone and launch your missiles at medium range, that at long range. MICA IR type of missiles therefor are much more useful for a stealth fighter, than an Aim 120D.
> Pak Fa weapon bay is still a mystery, lets see about that.
> *Copy and paste into a Paint or a similar drawing program*.



Thanks


----------



## Water Car Engineer

AMCA Cockpit






Samtel Avonics






Halbit Avonics

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## PARIKRAMA

*New Engines for AMCA by 2020*
*



*

Speaking on sidelines of Aero India 2015, DRDO officials confirmed to idrw.org that new 110 kN thrust class engines since will based on Proven and established engine technology and not to be developed by Scratch will be ready by 2020 for Production.

While DRDO will be engaging with Rolls-Royce, GE, Snecma who are major jet engine makers on Joint development of new engines which will require two crucial requirements one being engines needs to generate 110kN class of thrust and equipped with 2D Thrust vectoring nozzles (TVC) along with ability to Super-cruise at Mach 1.2.

General Electric is clearly favorite jet engine manufacturer who will be awarded the Contract to develop new engines, New engine will be based on F-414 engines since GE’s F-414 engines which will power Tejas MK-2 has growth potential of 20 % and GE officials have agreed to fine tune engine to fulfill AMCA requirements which according to DRDO officials needs to be developed in 3 years after awarding Contract and GE in-House Research & Development have designed many of the components needed for uprated engine and have great chance of completing project in required time frame set by DRDO.

While DRDO officials are saying first TD (Technology Demonstrator) of AMCA might fly with older Ge engines which currently powers LCA Tejas aircraft but can be upgraded to new engines once new engines enter production.
New Engines for AMCA by 2020 | idrw.org


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Rolls-Royce to offer Eurojet EJ200 engine to power India’s AMCA*

*



*

Rolls-Royce is one of the three aero major which has been invited to submit a proposal for joint development of a new engine in the class of 110kN thrust to power India’s 5th-generation fighter jet have confirmed that they will be offering Eurojet EJ200 engine used on Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft developed by EuroJet Turbo GmbH which is a multi-national consortium of which Rolls-Royce is partner .

On sidelines of Aero India 2015, EuroJet Turbo Company officials had talks with DRDO and ADA officials who are developing AMCA, EuroJet officials also briefed Indian officials about EJ2x0 a new engine Variant which according to their In-house R&D can generate 30% more power compared to the original EJ200 with a reheated output of around 120 kN from current 90kN developed b

While it seems like General Electric which has supplied F404-GE-IN20 engines to power Tejas MK-1 and have won a contract to supply 99 F414-INS6 engines to power Tejas MK-2 will again be front runners to supply engines for AMCA Project, Eurojet Turbo which has recently reached a memorandum of understanding with Turkey on supply of a derivative of the EJ200 to be used in the Turkey “TFX ” program which is a twin-engine fifth-generation jet fighter to be developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries are also confident of their chances In India.

EuroJet Turbo also has developed and demonstrated 2D thrust vector control module which can be integrated into the engine as required in AMCA engine requirements

The Eurojet consortium is responsible for the management of production, support and export of the EJ200 engine system. Eurojet’s shareholders comprise Rolls-Royce (UK), MTU Aero Engines (Germany), ITP (Spain) and Avio Aero (Italy).

Rolls-Royce to offer Eurojet EJ200 engine to power India’s AMCA | idrw.org

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## ptltejas

Dassault's concern over HAL and its ability

1)Dassault is working with HAL to ensure that the
latter can produce carbon-fibre composites
needed for the plane using an automated
process. Currently, HAL had to use a manual
technique for the production of materials.

2)HAL also needs to change the working culture
at its radar lab in order to churn out the RBE-2
AESA radar in satisfactory quality.

3)France wants an assurance that the
engineers they train remain deployed and
committed to the manufacture of the Rafale.

Mobile Uploads - Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook

BREAKING NEWS....
Negotiations on Rafale Deal are now over.... and the final report is with the government, now only the agreement has to be signed, which is most likely to be done after the Budget is announced, that is tomorrow.

JAI HIND

Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook

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## Ind4Ever

ptltejas said:


> Dassault's concern over HAL and its ability
> 
> 1)Dassault is working with HAL to ensure that the
> latter can produce carbon-fibre composites
> needed for the plane using an automated
> process. Currently, HAL had to use a manual
> technique for the production of materials.
> 
> 2)HAL also needs to change the working culture
> at its radar lab in order to churn out the RBE-2
> AESA radar in satisfactory quality.
> 
> 3)France wants an assurance that the
> engineers they train remain deployed and
> committed to the manufacture of the Rafale.
> 
> Mobile Uploads - Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook
> 
> BREAKING NEWS....
> Negotiations on Rafale Deal are now over.... and the final report is with the government, now only the agreement has to be signed, which is most likely to be done after the Budget is announced, that is tomorrow.
> 
> JAI HIND
> 
> Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook


Dafaq tomorrow we will know about mmrca ?


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## MokshaVimukthi

Ind4Ever said:


> Dafaq tomorrow we will know about mmrca ?



If defence budge gets a nice bump we can take an educated guess.


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## Ind4Ever

MokshaVimukthi said:


> If defence budge gets a nice bump we can take an educated guess.


But he said things have been sorted out and only signing the contract is left . That too it will be unveiled after budget ... which is tomorrow


----------



## indianBong

ptltejas said:


> Dassault's concern over HAL and its ability
> 
> 1)Dassault is working with HAL to ensure that the
> latter can produce carbon-fibre composites
> needed for the plane using an automated
> process. Currently, HAL had to use a manual
> technique for the production of materials.
> 
> 2)HAL also needs to change the working culture
> at its radar lab in order to churn out the RBE-2
> AESA radar in satisfactory quality.
> 
> 3)France wants an assurance that the
> engineers they train remain deployed and
> committed to the manufacture of the Rafale.
> 
> Mobile Uploads - Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook
> 
> BREAKING NEWS....
> Negotiations on Rafale Deal are now over.... and the final report is with the government, now only the agreement has to be signed, which is most likely to be done after the Budget is announced, that is tomorrow.
> 
> JAI HIND
> 
> 
> Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook




tomorrow ??? just can"t wait .....


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## SpArK

*A note on India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project*

Saturday , December 27, 2014 at 12 : 12


The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, at least one of which will enter series production sometime in the next decade. It of course remains to be seen whether the Chinese J-20 design will ultimately be powered by a Chinese low bypass turbofan engine or not. India meanwhile is still haggling with Russia on work share and tech share issues before it inks the final development contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA baseline. 

Regardless, it has been clear for some time now that India will have to mount a serious fifth generation effort of its own in order to both free itself from dependency on any other country as well build its aerospace sector on the foundation created through the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program. For that purpose the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) that oversees the LCA program has now increased the pace of activity with respect to the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program. However for the AMCA to reach fruition in a timely manner, the government of the day would do well to invest more in creating deeper aerospace development infrastructure.



The LCA program has taken the time it has to mature precisely because there was a hiatus in domestic fighter aircraft development post the HAL HF-24 Marut that was India's first homegrown jet fighter. No timely follow on programme to the Marut meant that both human and capital resources had to be built up concurrently even as the LCA program progressed contributing to delays. Today however via the LCA program India has a National Flight Test Centre to carry out flight testing with mobile telemetry stations, system design & evaluation facility for model based evaluations, a virtual reality facility to study assembly, accessibility and other related aspects, a lightning test facility and an explosive atmosphere test facility. However all this is not nearly enough for India to scale up its aerospace sector and take it to the next level.



For one, India is woefully short of wind tunnel facilities at the moment.* Internal ADA projections reveal that as opposed to an emerging requirement of 8000 load outs a year, India has the capability to service only 1500 load outs annually through existing facilities. This lack of capacity is one of the reasons why the AMCA has had to undergo wind tunnel testing at the Calspan Wind Tunnel in the United States of America, before its final aerodynamic layout was frozen. Also, the dimensions of the current wind tunnel facilities at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Bangalore, can accommodate only rather smallish models. Calspan's dimensions allowed larger models of the AMCA to be tested than what could be done at home it seems.*



The AMCA is obviously larger than the LCA and is in the 'medium' category with a max take off weight (MTOW) of 25 tons. The fighter will have the usual roster of what is typically considered 'fifth generation' including obviously stealth, supercruising ability, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar, thrust vectoring for super manoeuvrability, networked data fusion etc. and will allow modular construction.



The state of technology in what goes into making a fifth generation fighter is unevenly developed in India at the moment. Take stealth for instance, while Indian designers certainly know how to build a stealthy airframe in terms of pure aerodynamic shaping, Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero),* DRDO says that much work remains to be done in areas such as radar absorbent materials, conformal antennae and flush air data sensors etc. in order to achieve near all aspect stealth. In domains such as coatings that reduce exhaust exit temperatures, India has some experience having developed the same for the Advanced Light Helicopter program and more work is underway at IIT Mumbai.*



Moreover, even as various aspects of stealth technology are being worked upon, the fact remains that the AMCA test vehicles will be powered by imported low bypass turbofan engines. According to Dr Tamilmani, an engine selection process is not just underway, but is actually being hastened. Six engine original equipment makers (OEMs) have been sounded out for what is essentially an upgraded & up-rated version of an existing engine that could provide 110 kilo newton (KN) of wet thrust. "The RFPs will be sent out by April 2015, and in another eight months we will firm up our choice of engine to power the AMCA," says Dr Tamilmani. "We however have to do a lot work on our own to develop thrust vectoring for the AMCA," he adds.



At the moment, *the greatest hypothetical weight configuration of the AMCA design (with fuel and a certain weapons mix) has been calculated to be around 24.2 tons and ADA designers are confident that even with 105 KN engines, the AMCA would be able to meet design aerodynamic parameters. However given the experience with the LCA program, ADA this time really wants that 5 KN margin in order to be safe rather than sorry. It seems that the AMCA will also have an unusually large internal weapons bay that will have the capacity to accommodate around three tons worth of weapons. The AMCA will also feature six underwing pylons for externally carried weapons.*



The total spend on the programme so far has been under Rs 100 crore. The project has been taken up on the basis of a preliminary staff qualitative requirement from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and is currently in the project definition phase. Dr Tamilmani believes that for around Rs 4000 crore it would be possible to build 3 or 4 flying prototypes, the first of which should take to the skies by 2020-21.



Follow Saurav Jha on Twitter @SJha1618.


Saurav Jha's Blog : A note on India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project

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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> oh please stop quoting from sourav jha he is biggest disillusioned moron ever seen commenting on defense matters



And stop quoting me ... its hard to open all alerts.


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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> then keep mad man likes of sourav jha out




If you have anything about the thread or article , do post it rather than showing your discomfort or likings over defence writers ,...


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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> again calling random mad man with no defense background defense writer is so lame
> 
> BTW its *defense




Yup. People with defence background should only write... got it.


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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> yes people who have actually any combat experience or involved in rnd of complex defense equipment are best placed to write articles of any sort to be published not keyboard mad man like sourav jha



Ok. If i post anything from him further, do come back and insult this guy or any other guy ..

Regards


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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> sure if i am online and reading i will



And about the article, which all points you want to refute?


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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> i have closely followed the writer for many months and most of his articles are full of crap in general , his obsession for favoring Russian junk over western arms and blatantly trying to protect failed drdo projects is what i dislike most



Read the article and comment on it. Thread is about AMCA..

I can wait.

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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> sorry no time for another sourav jha crap , will wait for another article by some neutral writer on amca when it is actually materialized and not a paper plane .
> My strong opinion is drdo should spend its max energy on fast tracking tejas mk2 to be finished before 2020 .
> IAF should get rafales in numbers for mmrca role and fgfa for air superiority in stealth mode, rest other projects should wait.




So its just blah blah blah writer .........got it.

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## SpArK

Logical Hindu said:


> He is better of trying his hand on fiction novel , he neither has engineering background nor any combat experience to write defense articles



He is a reporter. He writes on various things based on information available as a press person. 

he cant write on fiction as he doesnt have a degree in literature or he cant write on politics as he doesnt have a degree in political science or about AR rahman concerts as he doesnt know to sing properly.

So its Logical.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> He is a reporter. He writes on various things based on information available as a press person.



Which is why this kind of actual reports are preferable than short tweets, but in times of social media, things get reduced to very limited infos just to spread the info first, rather to have credible sources, quotes or even as in this case proper logic behind it.

He starts by pointing to China and the 2 developments they have and then diverts the attention the ongoing negotiations with the Russians, to conclude that we need own developments not only to face the threats, but also to be independent from foreign countries.
That however shows the fundamental problem in India, were we take indigenous developments as a matter of pride, rather than seeing things with a more rational point of view and see them as a way to solve problems!
It doesn't matter how many fighter developments China have, since that doesn't mean we have to start one too, let alone that we would be able to finish one. We need additional fighters, if we have the requirement to replace fighters (IAF beyond 2030), or to add new capabilities which are not available (IN for IAC2). Similarly, we don't need an own fighter development to be independent from Russia, the fact that we jointly develop one is dealing with the dependance already and it's actually even the next level to reduce dependance, from what we do at the MKI today (production in India with as much parts produced in India, by materials sourced on our own, upgrading the MKI with high ammount of indigenous techs, materials and weapons...).

So his core points for the need of the AMCA development are flawed, by looking at the wrong things, rather than start with an evaluation of what the forces need in future and what the industry have today to base such an development on. He touches the latter rather indirectly, by pointing to the lack of adequate infrastructure for such a project, or the lack of a proper engine and the required techs (confirmed by the ADA and DRDO officials, which makes it even funnier). He doesn't point to the failures of ADA in the field of aircraft design, which made LCA and NLCA suffer a lot and which might be the core field where problems for AMCA will start.



SpArK said:


> It seems that the AMCA will also have an unusually large internal weapons bay that will have the capacity to accommodate around three tons worth of weapons.



This statement also seems to be wrong, once because the internal payload isn't limited to the main weapon bay, but if available also to side bays for AAMs. A standard set of 2 x R73 + 2 x Astra's alone would add to around 500Kg, which leaves the rest of the payload for additional weapons.
The second reason to doubt his statement, is the official AMCA video of ADA, which shows a rather small weapon load in the bay:

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions. | Page 21

2 x R37
2 x Astra
2 x 1000lb bombs
=> would be around 1500Kg

Even if it could carry 2 x 2000 bombs in addition to the missiles, the payload would not even touch 2500Kg let alone 3000Kg.

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## sancho

Logical Hindu said:


> oh please stop quoting from sourav jha he is biggest disillusioned moron ever seen commenting on defense matters



First of all, posting an article is always good, because without infos you can't get to a proper idea of the matter. Secondly, even if I don't agree to all his points in the article, he shows that he has done his job by talking to officials on the matter and quoting them officially, not just pointing to unnamed sources as it's too often the case in the Indian media.
Last but not least, everybody is free to have an own opinion, he, you or me and we all are free to express our views in whatever way. So you can't just blame him for his views, but as @SpArK stated, should counter them, by pointing to the wrong parts, or giving own arguments.

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## IrbiS



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## Omega007

Logical Hindu said:


> HIS ARTICLES ARE NOT EVEN WORTH LOOKING COMPLETE WASTAGE OF TIME SOURAV JHA



Says a guy whose user name is an oxymoron!!

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## MokshaVimukthi

Omega007 said:


> Says a guy whose user name is an oxymoron!!



Actually the term "Logical Hindu" is a Tautology. Hindus have had the most advanced logic that is far more advanced than anything the world had developed. It is called Tarka sashtra.

His using that name however is an oxymoron.

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## MokshaVimukthi

Logical Hindu said:


> logic like ancient flying saucers ??



No, logic that makes me ignore loud mouth fools like you.


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## MokshaVimukthi

Logical Hindu said:


> what happened cant debate on logic of Hindus , scared are we ? Or you belong to same category of sourav jha who with a economics degree of 2nd division think he is engineering and defense expert ?



Debates are with people how know something. Best to ignore fools or they will drag you down to their level.


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## MokshaVimukthi

Logical Hindu said:


> true people who believe in ancient flying machines really know something



Certainly more than you will ever know. They even command more respect than you  ............... now stop wasting my time by quoting me. Go bug somebody else who can tolerate you.


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## DeathInvader

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Certainly more than you will ever know. They even command more respect than you  ............... now stop wasting my time by quoting me. Go bug somebody else who can tolerate you.



Don't waste your time on him. I regret spending 20 mins of my time on him. Because f**k Logic !

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## MokshaVimukthi

DeathInvader said:


> Don't waste your time on him. I regret spending 20 mins of my time on him. Because f**k Logic !



LOL. He is a harmless fool so he gets a free pass from me. I reserve vitriol for the Not so harmless fools.

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## tsarbomba

Logical Hindu said:


> look who is taking person with user name of stupid concept called moksha


Will you please stay on topic? You have proved your weak logical reasoning already and don't need to further degrade your impression.


----------



## sancho

tsarbomba said:


> Will you please stay on topic?



Exactly, back to topic please!

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## Agent_47

@sancho

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## kurup

Agent_47 said:


> @sancho



So it will not have side weapon bays for WVR missiles ....


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## sancho

kurup said:


> So it will not have side weapon bays for WVR missiles ....



That needs to be seen I guess, so far they focus mainly on the primary weapon bay, but if they won't have missile bays, the whole design is even more pathetic than I expected. 
Btw, if we can take the size of the weaponbay in the pic as the actually planned size, it gets even more evident, that the weaponbay is rather small. The length would be hardly 4m which is enough for the BVR missiles or the SDB / SPICE 250 like quadpacks, just as the 2 x 1000lb bombs with also were shown, but not enough for 2000lb bombs. That would suggest the following configs:

A2A
- up to 6 x AAMs
=> 900Kg payload

A2G heavy attack
- 2 x BVR missiles
- 2 x 1000lb bombs
=> 1300Kg payload

A2G light attack
- 2 x BVR missiles
- 8 x 500lb bombs 
=> 1300Kg payload

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## Bhuvan93

"At the moment, the greatest hypothetical weight configuration of the AMCA design (with fuel and a certain weapons mix) has been calculated to be around 24.2 tons and ADA designers are confident that even with 105 KN engines, the AMCA would be able to meet design aerodynamic parameters. However given the experience with the LCA program, ADA this time really wants that 5 KN margin in order to be safe rather than sorry. It seems that the AMCA will also have an unusually large internal weapons bay that will have the capacity to accommodate around three tons worth of weapons. The AMCA will also feature six underwing pylons for externally carried weapons."

Reported by Saurav Jha in Dec '14. 

How much can you really go on those graphics? They're not particularly polished and just seem to be put together in a hurry with a "Jaldi, Jaldi, put some missiles/bombs in there".


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## sancho

Bhuvan93 said:


> How much can you really go on those graphics?



That's the question, but since they are officially published by ADA (at least the video), it's the most reliable info that we have so far.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

> *Russia to partner in AMCA technologies*
> _By SP's Special Correspondent_
> 
> 
> 
> *March 07, 2015:* I*ndia has approached Russia to partner it on certain critical technologies for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)*.
> 
> Top sources tell*SP's* that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has asked Russia for assistance in *developing thrust vectoring and certain other technologies on the concept fifth generation jet platform*. There has been steady progress in the programme following the basic design freeze. *The ADA has opened discussions with turbofan houses in the US, Russia and Europe for what it believes need to be 110 kN engines in twin configuration for the AMCA. The engines will specifically need to support supercruise. The ADA has indicated to engine manufacturers that modifications could potentially be a joint effort in country, involving the DRDO and other agencies if necessary.*
> 
> *Either way, the ADA has ambitiously aimed at producing up to four prototypes, with the first rolling out in 2019*. As the ADA recently set down as the aircraft's profile and definition, "The AMCA is being designed as a stealth, medium weight, twin engine, multimission aircraft with a swing-role capability. *Among the advanced technologies that confer stealth capabilities are serpentine air intakes, internal weapons bays, radar absorbing structure (RAS), radar absorbing materials (RAM), frequency selective surface radome and conformal air data probes. The avionics system features integrated modular architecture supporting NCW capabilities, advanced pilot-vehicle interface, pilot associate and integrated vehicle health management. The integrated flight and propulsion control system will combine the traditional flight control functions with thrust vectoring and engine control functions."*
> 
> Russia to partner in AMCA technologies - SP's MAI

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## Superboy

Is AMCA sort of like J-31 in terms of size? 

Shenyang J-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ind4Ever

Superboy said:


> Is AMCA sort of like J-31 in terms of size?
> 
> Shenyang J-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


May be . AMCA is for medium multi-role aircraft . FGFA / PAK FA are large air Superiority fighters same like Chinese have planned . Of course . 
AMCA - J31
FGFA - J20 
MKI - MKK / J11 
MiG 29 upg - ?????
TEJAS MK1/MK2 - J10B 
SU35S - Su35 
Super Sukoi - Su35 

General comparison


----------



## Superboy

Ind4Ever said:


> May be . AMCA is for medium multi-role aircraft . FGFA / PAK FA are large air Superiority fighters same like Chinese have planned . Of course .
> AMCA - J31
> FGFA - J20
> MKI - MKK / J11
> MiG 29 upg - ?????
> TEJAS MK1/MK2 - J10B
> SU35S - Su35
> Super Sukoi - Su35
> 
> General comparison




Tejas is a light fighter. J-10B is a medium fighter.

Rafale and MiG-29 - J-10B and F-16
Tejas - JF-17


----------



## Ind4Ever

C


Superboy said:


> Tejas is a light fighter. J-10B is a medium fighter.
> 
> Rafale and MiG-29 - J-10B and F-16
> Tejas - JF-17



But both are single engine ! In fact MK1 may not be on par with J10B but MK2 will have better configuration . 

Jf17 is more or less compared to J7 with more improved avionics . 

And please don't compare J10B with Rafales it's really absurd !!! 

MiG 29 is a good comparison to f 16 but MiG 29 upg is more advanced than f 16 .

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## Superboy

Ind4Ever said:


> C
> 
> 
> But both are single engine ! In fact MK1 may not be on par with J10B but MK2 will have better configuration .
> 
> Jf17 is more or less compared to J7 with more improved avionics .
> 
> And please don't compare J10B with Rafales it's really absurd !!!
> 
> MiG 29 is a good comparison to f 16 but MiG 29 upg is more advanced than f 16 .




JF-17 has nothing to do with J-7. That be like saying F-16 is really an improved F-5.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 8m8 minutes ago
Klimov has been brought in as a partner for developing thrust vectoring nozzles for future engines to be used in the AMCA program.



*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 9m9 minutes ago
Klimov has been brought in as a partner for developing thrust vectoring capability for future engines to be used in the AMCA program.

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## Perpendicular



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## HariPrasad

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 234367



Oh My god what a design.

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## Skull and Bones

HariPrasad said:


> Oh My god what a design.



Good 'Oh, my God', or Bad 'Oh, my God'.


----------



## HariPrasad

Ind4Ever said:


> May be . AMCA is for medium multi-role aircraft . FGFA / PAK FA are large air Superiority fighters same like Chinese have planned . Of course .
> AMCA - J31
> FGFA - J20
> MKI - MKK / J11
> MiG 29 upg - ?????
> TEJAS MK1/MK2 - J10B
> SU35S - Su35
> Super Sukoi - Su35
> 
> General comparison



J 31, Absolutely no match to AMCA and J 20 is nowhere near FAGFA nor PAKFA. 
MKI Much superior to MKK/ J11 Much better Avionics, Canard, Better Radar due for update to Super MKI standard.
Mig 29>>>????
There is some comperision between J10 an tejas.
SU 35S Shall be much better that Chinese Su35 like MKI>MKK.



Skull and Bones said:


> Good 'Oh, my God', or Bad 'Oh, my God'.



Good See the design. Does it appear bad?

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## IND151

Agent_47 said:


> @sancho











Looks cool


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## Skull and Bones

HariPrasad said:


> Good See the design. Does it appear bad?



Too little to comment based on side profile, front profile matters the most. I find the canopy design weird, could extend further behind for better visibility. Then again, I'm not an expert.

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## #hydra#

Bhuvan93 said:


> "At the moment, the greatest hypothetical weight configuration of the AMCA design (with fuel and a certain weapons mix) has been calculated to be around 24.2 tons and ADA designers are confident that even with 105 KN engines, the AMCA would be able to meet design aerodynamic parameters. However given the experience with the LCA program, ADA this time really wants that 5 KN margin in order to be safe rather than sorry. It seems that the AMCA will also have an unusually large internal weapons bay that will have the capacity to accommodate around three tons worth of weapons. The AMCA will also feature six underwing pylons for externally carried weapons."
> 
> Reported by Saurav Jha in Dec '14.
> 
> How much can you really go on those graphics? They're not particularly polished and just seem to be put together in a hurry with a "Jaldi, Jaldi, put some missiles/bombs in there".


Why we are not going for al31 engine with flat nozzle, its a mature platform with 120+ know.By adding flat nozzle thrust vecoctoring ,effective thrust will be reduced to our requirement ie 105 to 110 but with better stealth shaping.


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## holysaturn

Skull and Bones said:


> Too little to comment based on side profile, front profile matters the most. I find the canopy design weird, could extend further behind for better visibility. Then again, I'm not an expert.


Rearward visibility is a problem in most stealth fighters and they are not buble canopies like f-16,j-10,tejas so their ability to see downward right and left will also be not very good.
This is going to be a hughe blunder in close combat.The disadvantages of stealth are astounding ranging from higher weight,higher cost,more wave drag,high wing loading,higher maintenance,less payload,increased IR signature,low situational awareness all for low observable capability in the X band region.

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## migflug

GE Aviation will ship the first flight test F414-400 for a single-engine application to Saab later this year for the Gripen E, and production will begin in 2017. 

Production of GE Aviation’s F414 fighter engine could run for another decade. Although orders for the main aircraft it powers, the twin-engine F-18 Super Hornet and Growler, are winding down, it is finding success elsewhere in the world.

GE Aviation will ship the first flight test F414-400 for a single-engine application to Saab later this year for the Gripen E, and production will begin in 2017. “We will have 90 engines on order by the end of this summer for Gripens for Sweden and Brazil,” says Jean Lydon-Rodgers, vice president and general manager of GE Aviation’s military systems. “And we expect that to increase as the Swedish order grows.”

The engine was also selected by India for the LCA Mk.2. The first flight test engine will ship in the fourth quarter of this year, with production to begin in 2018.

Korea, Turkey and India are also prospects for the engine for their next-generation fighter programs, she says.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is being pitched an F414 upgrade that would bring 20% more thrust, twice the power takeoff for systems, and lower maintenance costs. “It’s a very low-risk upgrade incorporating an all-blisk compressor and 3D aero in the compressor and turbine,” she notes.

The upgrade is also being considered by India for its next-gen fighter program, and a deal there could include partnering with Indian industry on design of components.

Bright Future For GE’s F414 Fighter Engine | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

India’s Combat Aircraft Programmes: Learnings From Past - Saurav Jha

Meanwhile, the Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, at least one of which will enter series production sometime in the next decade and India at the moment is merely entering the project definition phase for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) which is a fifth generation effort crucial for India to continue building its aerospace sector on the foundation created through the LCA program. The AMCA is larger than the LCA and is a twin engine design in the ‘medium’ category with a max take off weight (MTOW) of 25 tons featuring stealth, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar, networked data fusion and a large internal weapons bay.

But to not make a mess of this program which as per current MoD discussionshas to begin flight testing in 2020 and enter production by 2025, it is important that the IAF accepts that the technology for what goes into making a fifth generation fighter is unevenly developed in India at the moment. For instance, India has very little capability in the domain of thrust vectoring at the moment and the IAF would do well to relax this requirement for the AMCA given that it isn’t really an absolute must for air combat in tomorrow’s environment. Then there is supercruise i.e the ability for a plane to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburner. For the AMCA, ADA is proposing a sustained speed of Mach 1.2 while using minimum after burner and expects that this would lead to a detection penalty of 5-7 km as compared to true supercruise.

Moreover, it is important that serious money be committed up front for this program with the IAF assuming ownership. At the moment some 7 test vehicles are envisaged to be built and tested at a cost of Rs 20000 crores. The engine for the AMCA prototypes will be the GE F414 INS6 to begin with i.ethe same as the Tejas MK-II. For the production standard AMCA a 110 KN engine will be required for which talks are on with GE and the US Government to launch a joint program for ‘co-developing’ a 110 KN variant of the baseline F-414. These talks are proceeding under the aegis of the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative and if successful will see the manufacture of F414 variants in India. In the event of these talks not yielding results a global tender will be used to select the final engine for the AMCA


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## IND151

migflug said:


> GE Aviation will ship the first flight test F414-400 for a single-engine application to Saab later this year for the Gripen E, and production will begin in 2017.
> 
> Production of GE Aviation’s F414 fighter engine could run for another decade. Although orders for the main aircraft it powers, the twin-engine F-18 Super Hornet and Growler, are winding down, it is finding success elsewhere in the world.
> 
> GE Aviation will ship the first flight test F414-400 for a single-engine application to Saab later this year for the Gripen E, and production will begin in 2017. “We will have 90 engines on order by the end of this summer for Gripens for Sweden and Brazil,” says Jean Lydon-Rodgers, vice president and general manager of GE Aviation’s military systems. “And we expect that to increase as the Swedish order grows.”
> 
> The engine was also selected by India for the LCA Mk.2. The first flight test engine will ship in the fourth quarter of this year, with production to begin in 2018.
> 
> Korea, Turkey and India are also prospects for the engine for their next-generation fighter programs, she says.
> 
> Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is being pitched an F414 upgrade that would bring 20% more thrust, twice the power takeoff for systems, and lower maintenance costs. “It’s a very low-risk upgrade incorporating an all-blisk compressor and 3D aero in the compressor and turbine,” she notes.
> 
> The upgrade is also being considered by India for its next-gen fighter program, and a deal there could include partnering with Indian industry on design of components.
> 
> Bright Future For GE’s F414 Fighter Engine | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week
> 
> India’s Combat Aircraft Programmes: Learnings From Past - Saurav Jha
> 
> Meanwhile, the Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, at least one of which will enter series production sometime in the next decade and India at the moment is merely entering the project definition phase for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) which is a fifth generation effort crucial for India to continue building its aerospace sector on the foundation created through the LCA program. The AMCA is larger than the LCA and is a twin engine design in the ‘medium’ category with a max take off weight (MTOW) of 25 tons featuring stealth, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar, networked data fusion and a large internal weapons bay.
> 
> But to not make a mess of this program which as per current MoD discussionshas to begin flight testing in 2020 and enter production by 2025, it is important that the IAF accepts that the technology for what goes into making a fifth generation fighter is unevenly developed in India at the moment. For instance, India has very little capability in the domain of thrust vectoring at the moment and the IAF would do well to relax this requirement for the AMCA given that it isn’t really an absolute must for air combat in tomorrow’s environment. Then there is supercruise i.e the ability for a plane to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburner. For the AMCA, ADA is proposing a sustained speed of Mach 1.2 while using minimum after burner and expects that this would lead to a detection penalty of 5-7 km as compared to true supercruise.
> 
> Moreover, it is important that serious money be committed up front for this program with the IAF assuming ownership. At the moment some 7 test vehicles are envisaged to be built and tested at a cost of Rs 20000 crores. The engine for the AMCA prototypes will be the GE F414 INS6 to begin with i.ethe same as the Tejas MK-II. For the production standard AMCA a 110 KN engine will be required for which talks are on with GE and the US Government to launch a joint program for ‘co-developing’ a 110 KN variant of the baseline F-414. These talks are proceeding under the aegis of the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative and if successful will see the manufacture of F414 variants in India. In the event of these talks not yielding results a global tender will be used to select the final engine for the AMCA



Is it confirmed uparted F414-400 will power AMCA?


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## uparyupari

IND151 said:


> Is it confirmed uparted F414-400 will power AMCA?



Its confirmed that it will NOT. US Govt. said NO.


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## HariPrasad

uparyupari said:


> Its confirmed that it will NOT. US Govt. said NO.



I thing AMCA shall use Thrust victor engine so 404 and 414 are are out of question. I read somewhere that a J V with russia is planned for down graded engine of MKI in 120 KN thrust range.


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## uparyupari

HariPrasad said:


> I thing AMCA shall use Thrust victor engine so 404 and 414 are are out of question. I read somewhere that a J V with russia is planned for down graded engine of MKI in 120 KN thrust range.



There is a Tender out there seeking assistance, however I do not see any progress there either. Its unlikely others will help us develop our engine. Best to go the R&D route, maybe involve private players.


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## HariPrasad

uparyupari said:


> There is a Tender out there seeking assistance, however I do not see any progress there either. Its unlikely others will help us develop our engine. Best to go the R&D route, maybe involve private players.



provided we have another 15 years. Do we have? We are trying for years but still unable to catch up. A pragmatic approach is the demand of hour.


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## uparyupari

HariPrasad said:


> provided we have another 15 years. Do we have? We are trying for years but still unable to catch up. A pragmatic approach is the demand of hour.



LOL.... what makes you think anyone is going to help you design and build an fighter jet engine ?  

Wishful thinking is NOT "pragmatism". Its just a dream, a fools paradise.


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## Echo_419

uparyupari said:


> LOL.... what makes you think anyone is going to help you design and build an fighter jet engine ?
> 
> Wishful thinking is NOT "pragmatism". Its just a dream, a fools paradise.



AgReed no one willwill share engine tech with us better to invest in our own R&$


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## HariPrasad

uparyupari said:


> LOL.... what makes you think anyone is going to help you design and build an fighter jet engine ?
> 
> Wishful thinking is NOT "pragmatism". Its just a dream, a fools paradise.



Russia, US, Germany. All have offered support. We already make MKI engine in india.


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## Perpendicular

uparyupari said:


> Its confirmed that it will NOT. US Govt. said NO.


Indirectly they are insisting on us buying F35's. 
Reopen kaveri mk2 and then involve private players for further developing it.


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## saurav

Eurojet had developed thrust vectoring for their EJ-2K engines. If we can get that engine for our AMCA, it will be better. Almost everybody I know favoured EJ-2K over F-414 for LCA-II. But a decision was taken and we have to resort to floating a tender again.


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## drunken-monke

HariPrasad said:


> Russia, US, Germany. All have offered support. We already make MKI engine in india.


We still lack the critical material technology, don't we? The single crystal blade technology, we are still doing RND for it... Though GTRE have made some progress in developing tech for some of the aggregators.


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## qcninja

saurav said:


> Eurojet had developed thrust vectoring for their EJ-2K engines. If we can get that engine for our AMCA, it will be better. Almost everybody I know favoured EJ-2K over F-414 for LCA-II. But a decision was taken and we have to resort to floating a tender again.


IAF has agreed to consider EJ-2K for AMCA. Seems there is some setback with GE.


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## HariPrasad

drunken-monke said:


> We still lack the critical material technology, don't we? The single crystal blade technology, we are still doing RND for it... Though GTRE have made some progress in developing tech for some of the aggregators.



Yes, That is why the support of others are required. We are one generation behind in Aero engine technology.

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## IND151

Evolution of MCA to AMCA | idrw.org



HariPrasad said:


> I thing AMCA shall use Thrust victor engine so 404 and 414 are are out of question. I read somewhere that a J V with russia is planned for down graded engine of MKI in 120 KN thrust range.



But will AL 31FP fit inside AMCA, remember they are designed for large fighter like flanker.

@XiNiX @sancho @MilSpec @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye


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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> Evolution of MCA to AMCA | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> But will AL 31FP fit inside AMCA, remember they are designed for large fighter like flanker.
> 
> @XiNiX @sancho @MilSpec @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye


or maybe some how they devlop K10 series Kaveri engine inhouse ... who knows any thing is possible in "modi sarkaar"

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## IND151

GURU DUTT said:


> or *maybe* some how *they devlop K10 series Kaveri engine inhouse *... who knows any thing is possible in "modi sarkaar"



I will be happy if what you said in bolded part happens.

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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> I will be happy if what you said in bolded part happens.


aisa hua to sarre PDF members ko meri taraf se party jisme itne sharab bahegi ki baar aa jayegi

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## MilSpec

IND151 said:


> Evolution of MCA to AMCA | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> But will AL 31FP fit inside AMCA, remember they are designed for large fighter like flanker.
> 
> @XiNiX @sancho @MilSpec @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye


Don't know, I doubt it was designed for an AL31F. 
a twin M88 Snecma or revamped GTRX K-XX won't be a bad option either.

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## uparyupari

HariPrasad said:


> Russia, US, Germany. All have offered support. We already make MKI engine in india.



Key world "design and build" . NOT build from blue print, Even that is almost impossible to come by.


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## The Last of us

Congrats India! I hope this project reaches success very soon! Seems like a very promising fighter jet.

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## GURU DUTT

MilSpec said:


> Don't know, I doubt it was designed for an AL31F.
> a twin M88 Snecma or revamped GTRX K-XX won't be a bad option either.


i guess this time they dont have a choice they have to develop it and on fast track basis and should rope in best young minds + take guidence from international and national experts and counsaltants for the same ..... beg borrow or steal but just do it

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## ni8mare

IND151 said:


> Evolution of MCA to AMCA | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> But will AL 31FP fit inside AMCA, remember they are designed for large fighter like flanker.


it can't Al 31 fp is bigger engine compared to medium thrust engine like M88. F414 EPE , EJ-2XX...in dimension and weight


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## IND151

MilSpec said:


> Don't know, I doubt it was designed for an AL31F.
> a twin M88 Snecma or revamped GTRX K-XX won't be a bad option either.



Uparted M 88-3 will be logical choice.

But will Russians provide Thrust Vector Tech for that engine?


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## sathya

IND151 said:


> Uparted M 88-3 will be logical choice.
> 
> But will Russians provide Thrust Vector Tech for that engine?



Yes after rafale deal , it will be added benefit

But it is said that M88 won't be able to reach to 110 kn

And history of us wasting nearly 5 years for Kaveri - Snecma JV for LCA , is not easy to forget..


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## IND151

sathya said:


> Yes after rafale deal , it will be added benefit
> 
> But it is said that M88 won't be able to reach to 110 kn
> 
> And history of us wasting nearly 5 years for Kaveri - Snecma JV for LCA , is not easy to forget..



I am getting feeling the AMCA Power plant willl be either Uprated EJ or Klimov RD 33 MK3.

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## sathya

IND151 said:


> I am getting feeling the AMCA Power plant willl be either Uprated EJ or Klimov RD 33 MK3.



Would have been much better if we had approached EU for EJ instead of wasting time Snecma , even the necessity for mk2 would not have come..


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## samlove

future of air force


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## dreamer4eva

India have acquired enough maturity in aircraft design and further improvement in design will be sorted out by experiential learning. The only thing India needs to develop is a turbofan which can provide more than 110kn thrust. It was a very good project management decision to delink Kaveri from existing fighter jet projects, and hopefully get the jets flying with off the shelf engine. However, India needs to allocate around $5 billion for engine R & D and let the smart guys and gals figure it out. With the man power India have, it will have a pretty handy engine in next 3-5 years time..

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## Perpendicular

Eurojet Promises better life cycle cost while pitching EJ200 for AMCA | idrw.org

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## Perpendicular

Different design changes during the process, certainly more changes still to come.











Production and testing of different major modules will be outsourced to private sector before being delivered to HAL for integration.

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## Water Car Engineer

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 257184
> 
> Different design changes during the process, certainly more changes still to come.
> 
> View attachment 257185
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 257186
> 
> Production and testing of different major modules will be outsourced to private sector before being delivered to HAL for integration.




Excellent, the first image.



Perpendicular said:


> Production and testing of different major modules will be outsourced to private sector before being delivered to HAL for integration.




What your source for that, that's awesome news!!

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## HariPrasad

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 257184
> 
> Different design changes during the process, certainly more changes still to come.
> 
> View attachment 257185
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 257186
> 
> Production and testing of different major modules will be outsourced to private sector before being delivered to HAL for integration.



Awesome. There had not been any better informative post in Past.

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## Perpendicular

This is where our little LCA is so important. Some of the technologies developed will help build and speedup AMCA or AHCA.








Water Car Engineer said:


> Excellent, the first image.
> 
> 
> HariPrasad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome. There had not been any better informative post in Past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What your source for that, that's awesome news!!
Click to expand...

Based on F22 layout, purposed 1000 km combat radius, not enough space to accommodate 5th gen equipment with only 4 tonne internal fuel capacity will push AMCA into AHCA.

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## Echo_419

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 257184
> 
> Different design changes during the process, certainly more changes still to come.
> 
> View attachment 257185
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 257186
> 
> Production and testing of different major modules will be outsourced to private sector before being delivered to HAL for integration.



What's your source for the last part


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## GURU DUTT

looks like AMCA is right on track but how come its morphing into AHCA


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## HariPrasad

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like AMCA is right on track but how come its morphing into AHCA



AHCA concept is a BS as we are already partnering in PAFA. It shall simply be a duplication of effort and loss of huge money. 

Today I read an excellent paper of Aerodynamics of Tejas. They have redesign the canpoy and that shall reduce the drag by 6% which shall result into an transoceanic acceleration by 20% and highest speed by 2% at see level. This is awesome. it shall liberate the 50 liter space for fuel also. Another Aerodynamic change is new redome and increasing the length of Aircraft. Last shall happen in MK2 Rest 2 can take place in LCA MK1+.

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## GURU DUTT

HariPrasad said:


> AHCA concept is a BS as we are already partnering in PAFA. It shall simply be a duplication of effort and loss of huge money.
> 
> Today I read an excellent paper of Aerodynamics of Tejas. They have redesign the canpoy and that shall reduce the drag by 6% which shall result into an transoceanic acceleration by 20% and highest speed by 2% at see level. This is awesome. it shall liberate the 50 liter space for fuel also. Another Aerodynamic change is new redome and increasing the length of Aircraft. Last shall happen in MK2 Rest 2 can take place in LCA MK1+.


i too smell a IAF sponsorred yet another goal post change


----------



## HariPrasad

GURU DUTT said:


> i too smell a IAF sponsorred yet another goal post change



No I do not think so. IAF CHief has said that LCA Shall meet their requirement. If 800 KG Weight is slashed than LCA shall almost meet the IAF requirement. Here comes an another good news of 6% aerodynamic improvement. Now I am awaiting for the good news of new air Intake which shall allow LCA to utilized its engine power fully.

New Design of AMCA seem to resembling YF 23. What say?


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## Perpendicular

Echo_419 said:


> What's your source for the last part


ADA


GURU DUTT said:


> looks like AMCA is right on track but how come its morphing into AHCA


Sorry guys AHCA is not purposed by anyone but me. Just the AHCA only. 
Reason being from what i learnt is that keeping the weight under 30 tonnes with design features of a twin engine, 1000 km unrefuelled combat range and a vast weapons bay might be impossible to achieve.

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## GURU DUTT

Perpendicular said:


> ADA
> 
> Sorry guys AHCA is not purposed by anyone but me. Just the AHCA only.
> Reason being from what i learnt is that keeping the weight under 30 tonnes with design features of a twin engine, 1000 km unrefuelled combat range and a vast weapons bay might be impossible to achieve.


well maybe at last indians are adding DSI tech to get those kind of results in AMCA


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## Perpendicular

GURU DUTT said:


> well maybe at last indians are adding DSI tech to get those kind of results in AMCA

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## Hurter

On a serious note, Tejas ko hua kya hai? Why are they not completing on time?


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## SRP

Junaid B said:


> On a serious note, Tejas ko hua kya hai? Why are they not completing on time?



Wrong thread. Ask this question in LCA sticky thread.



majid mehmood said:


> india could not complete tejas they are telling to complete in this decade



Troll Post


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## Echo_419

Perpendicular said:


> ADA
> 
> Sorry guys AHCA is not purposed by anyone but me. Just the AHCA only.
> Reason being from what i learnt is that keeping the weight under 30 tonnes with design features of a twin engine, 1000 km unrefuelled combat range and a vast weapons bay might be impossible to achieve.



A link would be better,not that I don't trust your word but this seems a little unbelievable


----------



## Perpendicular

Echo_419 said:


> A link would be better,not that I don't trust your word but this seems a little unbelievable


What is unbelievable ? I mean which part


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## Water Car Engineer

Echo_419 said:


> What's your source for the last part



Here's the pdf.

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: A Technical Analysis







Serious private participation will most likely occur in the AMCA program. HAL will integrate the fabricated and tested modules from private firms, and test the full system.






@Oscar - I remember you mentioning something about private firm participation, it might very well happen.

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> Here's the pdf.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: A Technical Analysis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serious private participation will most likely occur in the AMCA program. HAL will integrate the fabricated and tested modules from private firms, and test the full system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar - I remember you mentioning something about private firm participation, it might very well happen.



Good initiative by HAL
Also any news on kaveri


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## halupridol

Echo_419 said:


> Good initiative by HAL
> Also any news on kaveri


kya lagta hae,,,kab tak banega

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## Echo_419

halupridol said:


> kya lagta hae,,,kab tak banega



Mera pota(grandson) udayega iska prototype

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## majid mehmood

halupridol said:


> kya lagta hae,,,kab tak banega


kaveri is dead
OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project - Oneindia

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## halupridol

majid mehmood said:


> kaveri is dead
> OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project - Oneindia


uncle ji,,,i was asking about yeay-yemm-see-yeay


Echo_419 said:


> Mera pota(grandson) udayega iska prototype


tab toh plz kar le shaadi mere bhai,,,,kum se kum marney se pehle isey urtey huey dekney ka chance to banega

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## gslv mk3

majid mehmood said:


> kaveri is dead
> OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project - Oneindia



None sense


----------



## HariPrasad

Skull and Bones said:


> Good 'Oh, my God', or Bad 'Oh, my God'.


ofcourse good.


----------



## nik22

Indias Century said:


> Tejas is totally ready for induction...but everytime IAF is not giving final clearance...IAF says it still doesn't meet their standard.!


really? you have flown tejas ?


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## majid mehmood

gslv mk3 said:


> None sense


what do u mean
the report is from ur newspaper not pakistan 
truth is harsh

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## Agent_47

majid mehmood said:


> what do u mean
> the report is from ur newspaper not pakistan
> truth is harsh


Kaveri Project is broken in to two parts:

Kabani core for UAV applications (under development)

improve Kaveri output to 95KN+ and reduce weight (already 81kN+ archived ,waiting for approval of fund around 2000+ cr) 
Making an aero engine from scratch is harsh hard.

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## Agent_47

Water Car Engineer said:


> Here's the pdf.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: A Technical Analysis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serious private participation will most likely occur in the AMCA program. HAL will integrate the fabricated and tested modules from private firms, and test the full system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar - I remember you mentioning something about private firm participation, it might very well happen.





> The ADA is designing the AMCA with an internal fuel capacity of 4 tonnes to exclude the necessity of
> carrying outboard fuel tanks which significantly compromise the aircraft's stealth properties. The
> ADA estimates that the AMCA will have a combat radius of 1,000 km on these 4 tonnes of internal fuel.
> 
> It must be noted that the F-35 A carries 8.3 tonnes of fuel and the F-35 C close to 9 tonnes that enable
> both these aircraft to achieve a combat radius of no more than 1,100 km for an aircraft with a
> 14
> maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 31 tonnes. It would seem therefore that the AMCA would
> have to be half the weight of the F-35 in order to achieve a 1,000-km unrefuelled combat radius or
> have revolutionary engines that cut fuel consumption in half.
> Given that the AMCA is a twin-engine aircraft with greater fuel consumption, such range statistics as
> given by the ADA simply do not hold up to preliminary scrutiny.



I think range problem pointed out by the author is misplaced.
AMCA - 25 ton MTOW, 4.7 ton fuel ,1,852+ km combat radious
Rafale - 24.5 ton MTOW,* 4 ton fuel , 1000+ km* are achievable. @Oscar @kurup @sudhir007 @Abingdonboy @Dillinger


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## topgun047

R


Agent_47 said:


> I think range problem pointed out by the author is misplaced.
> AMCA - 25 ton MTOW, 4.7 ton fuel ,1,852+ km combat radious
> Rafale - 24.5 ton MTOW,* 4 ton fuel , 1000+ km* are achievable. @Oscar @kurup @sudhir007 @Abingdonboy @Dillinger


Rafale has this range with 3 externsl fuel tanks iirc


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## SR-91

nik22 said:


> really? you have flown tejas ?




So far every pilot that has flown it, admires it!!!!!
*

Love flying the mean machine: Tejas test pilot - The Times of India

*
No need to pull a leg of your own brother, IMO, LCA Tejas is ready but IT IS IAF that wants MORE. NO doubt about it!!


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## Agent_47

topgun047 said:


> R
> 
> Rafale has this range with 3 externsl fuel tanks iirc


No, 4.7 ton fuel is internal.
Specifications and performance data


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## majid mehmood

Agent_47 said:


> Kaveri Project is broken in to two parts:
> 
> Kabani core for UAV applications (under development)
> 
> improve Kaveri output to 95KN+ and reduce weight (already 81kN+ archived ,waiting for approval of fund around 2000+ cr)
> Making an aero engine from scratch is harsh hard.


link pls
and not the approval of fund it is approval of wind up

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## topgun047

Alert 5 » KF-X hits roadblock after failure to get clearance for 4 key technologies from U.S. - Military Aviation News
_South Korea’s dream of developing its KF-X fighter has suffered a setback after KAI failed to get clearance from the U.S. for four key technologies from Lockheed Martin.




Photos: KAI

Four key technologies are: active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track sensor, electro-optical targeting pod and electronic warfare jammer.

A Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) official said as a consequence, the program might have to be delayed._


A reason why India should do its own R & D instead of becoming US sidekick.
I would put my money on Turkey being next.

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## SRP

topgun047 said:


> Alert 5 » KF-X hits roadblock after failure to get clearance for 4 key technologies from U.S. - Military Aviation News
> _South Korea’s dream of developing its KF-X fighter has suffered a setback after KAI failed to get clearance from the U.S. for four key technologies from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos: KAI
> 
> Four key technologies are: active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track sensor, electro-optical targeting pod and electronic warfare jammer.
> 
> A Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) official said as a consequence, the program might have to be delayed._
> 
> 
> A reason why India should do its own R & D instead of becoming US sidekick.
> I would put my money on Turkey being next.




Wrong thread


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## Agent_47

topgun047 said:


> Alert 5 » KF-X hits roadblock after failure to get clearance for 4 key technologies from U.S. - Military Aviation News
> _
> Four key technologies are: active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track sensor, electro-optical targeting pod and electronic warfare jammer.
> 
> A Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) official said as a consequence, the program might have to be delayed._
> 
> 
> A reason why India should do its own R & D instead of becoming US sidekick.
> I would put my money on Turkey being next.


AESA radar - capable radar already in test stage. (UTTAM for LCA mk2)
_electronic warfare suite_ - co developed with israel ready and being fitted with Mig29,LCA

IRST - Will get ToT of Russian 101KS-V with FGFA contract.
electro optical - Co-development with israel is easy option.

The point is, india is not and will not be US sidekick like turkey or SK and indian R&D is capable enough to fullfill all the requirements for AMCA project either from scratch or co-development in next ten years.

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## scientien

king uncle said:


> it is for noting, a country like south korea asked for US help. south korea is a developed country with more advanced than India.


Fail logic, because according to you they should have agency more capable than ISRO,which they dont.

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## Agent_47

king uncle said:


> AMCA need much more advanced radar that UTTAM.
> 
> 
> a probable one.


Dude, we have a time frame of 10 year to develop and mature all needed technologies.In these areas we have enough basic ground cleared to develop a much more advanced version.



king uncle said:


> US have the most advanced equipment. and you cannot compare radar or other electronic equipment used in F-35 with any other equipment developed by others as US have most advance military hardware.
> it is for noting, a country like south korea asked for US help. south korea is a developed country with more advanced than India.


It is all about priorities, rite? Korea and Japan don't have a requirement to make all by themselves and be independent of others West. But we do, so our effort are on that direction. Also unlike them our required numbers are big.
No one is denying uncle sam is superior. We are building our military to fight less capable adversaries than US.A technological developed country does not mean they are superior in every field. Brazil can make superior businesses jets than china. or israel can make better UAVs then the whole Europe.(not a literal comparison) 



king uncle said:


> ISRO had years of experience in developing rockets... did any Indian company have an experience in manufacturing high end defense hardware??
> and ISRO is not a defense development agency. deference equipment needs to be cutting edge and must always stay ahead of enemy in technological advancement. it is not in case of a civilian agency.


he is pointing out you failed logic not a literal comparison.

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## scientien

king uncle said:


> deference equipment needs to be cutting edge


And space technology is not cutting edge?
Well technology required to develop radar is nearly same for both agency no matter what purpose(fundamentally)
Same as technology used in arihnat nuclear reactor and civilian nuclear reactor.
Also we are fairly good at microwave technology just nees some more research on nanoscience and material science.


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## topgun047

scientien said:


> And space technology is not cutting edge?
> Well technology required to develop radar is nearly same for both agency no matter what purpose(fundamentally)
> Same as technology used in arihnat nuclear reactor and civilian nuclear reactor.
> Also we are fairly good at microwave technology just nees some more research on nanoscience and material science.



No...defence teach needs to be superior to the tech enemy has for it to be called succesful( or counter a superior tech using innovative thinking in case of Russia)
For example ISRO's PSLV is extremly successful but a crude launch vehicle.It gets the job done cheaply but in terms of sophistication it is nowhere near what NASA or ESA have to offer.


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## scientien

topgun047 said:


> No...defence teach needs to be superior to the tech enemy has for it to be called succesful( or counter a superior tech using innovative thinking in case of Russia)
> For example ISRO's PSLV is extremly successful but a crude launch vehicle.It gets the job done cheaply but in terms of sophistication it is nowhere near what NASA or ESA have to offer.


I would have countered your statement but then,whats the pupose of all the above things you said?does that imply thay we should not try?dude a time will come we will be more advanced than usa or europe but first we need to try,if we dont try know we will nvr b advance than them.
Eg look at gslv in the next ten to twenty yrs our space flight capability can match theres.

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## Agent_47

king uncle said:


> we have only 5-7 years to develop it. AMCA's flight flight is planed for 2020. and will be introduced into AF in 2025(as per the current plan). and you think that we can develop a radar similar to the one used in f-35 in just 10 years!!??


who told you that ?
No country in the world can make a fifth gen fighter in 7 years !. Look at your overpriced marketing gimmick, F35 it is still not finished. ADA is not going to make over optimistic mistakes of LCA again.

Also, what is the hurry ? AMCA is suppose to replace Mig 29,Mirage 2000, jauger. All are getting upgraded and airframe can serve upto 2032. Let the technologies mature no big hurry, but we have to start things now.

F-35 radar APG-77 don't even use GaN T/R.That means if we can field similar T/R count on a GaN based AESA radar in next 10 years, it can be deadlier than APG-77.(Isreal,Raytheon,Lockheed already demonstrated ground based GaN AESA).



king uncle said:


> yes they do. japan manufacture almost every defense hardware in the country, they have a similar policy like our "make in india".
> no we have a fastest developing adversary "china". recent technological advancement in china is unprecedented.
> i didn't say they are superior in every feild. what i said is they are superior in manufacturing cutting edge electronic deceives than india.


Do some research buddy,Japan,SK etc piggyback on western technologies. Show me a credible aero engine fully made by them?
Yes,China is awesome because their economy is.

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## Perpendicular

*Orange to add teeth to India’s gen-next weapon systems

Read more at: Orange to add teeth to India’s gen-next weapon systems - Oneindia*

Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M 

Future missiles and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) being developed by India will be tested for their Radar Cross Section (RCS) measurements at the recently-opened facility codenamed Project Orange (open range) in Dundigal near Hyderabad. Orange is a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) project operated by Dr A P J Abdul Kalam Research Centre Imarat (formerly RCI). It is being developed as a national facility for RCS measurements, which is capable of enhancing the stealth features of India's gen-next weapon systems. Giving exclusive details to OneIndia, an official said that Orange is capable of measuring RCS over a wide frequency band for various platforms. The facility was recently opened by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. "Orange can be used to test platforms currently in use by defence forces and those futuristic weapon systems under development. The facility presently covers frequency ranges in far field scenario and is capable of providing RCS measurements as well as onboard antenna characteristics," the official, requesting anonymity, said. Know more about Radar Cross Section (RCS) RCS is the parameter that determines the detectability of an object by a radar. A larger value indicates that an object can be detected at far distances compared to one with small RCS value. The RCS of a object is defined in far field, i.e., distances where the electro-magnetic (EM) energy spread out by the emitter has achieved a steady state scenario and antenna pattern does not change with distance. Radars are used worldwide over a wide frequency band starting from VHF to millimeter waves (MM-waves) for various purposes. Low frequency radars have the advantage of transmitting a very high power and are utilized for early detection. However, for tracking purpose (a seeker for example), higher frequencies are used, which have the advantage of higher resolution, though transmitted powers are limited. Facility can take loads in excess of 75 tonnes The official said that Orange is being established in an open (outdoor) configuration with a range that's capable of addressing the requirements of a full-scale vehicle. The Pylon system is capable of lifting payloads up to 35 tonnes by a height of 10 meter above ground, necessary for aerial targets. "The base rotor of the pylon has the capability of taking loads in excess of 75 tonnes which is to be utilized for RCS and antenna measurements of heavier ground vehicles, including tanks and radars. The pylon has three detachable rotors with varying payload capacity," the official said. The capacity of the pylon is capable of addressing the requirements of scale models, dummy mockups, operational light aircraft and even heavy fighter such as a Su-30MKI. Many home-grown technologies incorporated Orange boasts of many home-grown technologies developed with the support of DRDO. The Instrumentation Radar System (capable of measuring low RCS values) at the test range is co-developed by Bose Institute, Kolkata and Sikkim Manipal Institute of Technology (Rangpo), Sikkim. "The RCS measurement and calibration technique for the test range is based on RCI's two-decades-plus expertise in this domain. In addition to RCS measurements, the RF imaging capability of the range is capable of diagnosing the hot spots (prominent scattering centres) on a platform," he said. Based on the levels of hot spots, the vehicle can be subjected to a redesign or even put through RCS-reduction materials. "It all depends upon the overall RCS reduction achievement in a defined threat sector of a given vehicle," the official added.

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## satish

Are the specifications on the Wikipedia site are correct?

If they are then wing loading will be too high and aircraft won't be maneuverable and it will have sluggish acceleration. 

Air craft will not have much wing for the weight.


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## monitor

*Computer Generated photos - Indian Air Force PAK FA T-50*

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## Perpendicular

AMCA is planning to use the GE F414-EPE.

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## fsayed

Perpendicular said:


> AMCA is planning to use the GE F414-EPE.


This will be good news for amca project.
engine will b big hurdle if decision not made at early stage


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## Perpendicular

fsayed said:


> This will be good news for amca project.
> engine will b big hurdle if decision not made at early stage


One of the lesson LCA program taught us. Thus MK2's and AMCA's won't have to wait until India comes up with own required capable power plant.

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## Cyberian

Has India even started building this AMCA Cartoon or is it going to remain just a cartoon?


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## Water Car Engineer

SUPARCO said:


> Has India even started building this AMCA Cartoon or is it going to remain just a cartoon?





No money given to build prototypes, yet.

They are currently looking, talking with several suppliers for it's engine. With GE looking like it will supply AMCA's engines. India and GE are in advanced talks about the contract.

US to help India develop engine for Gen-5 fighter | Business Standard News

Design is being finalized, if not done.








It's supply chain with increased private participation will be implemented. Modular construction will being implemented.











You're right in thinking it's a paper plane now, but It's only a matter of time before it get's the green light.

AURA UCAV is also about to get the green light - Government set to clear Rs 3,000 crore plan to develop engine for India's first UCAV - The Economic Times
India to launch its Own UCAV project 'Ghatak' Soon

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## kaykay

Design have been finalised and model has passed both low speed wind tunnel test( in India) and supersonic wind tunnel tests and RCS tests(USA). Project definition phase is running right now and after this they will start building 1st Technology demonstrator.

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## bloo

kaykay said:


> Design have been finalised and model has passed both low speed wind tunnel test( in India) and supersonic wind tunnel tests and RCS tests(USA). Project definition phase is running right now and after this they will start building 1st Technology demonstrator.


 
Link?


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## mkb95

*Update on AMCA *





AMCA is another project to develop a medium weight combat aircraft, which having fifth generation capabilities like active sensor and processing systems, internal weapon carriage capability, precision strike capability and invisible to enemy radars. The AMCA work initiated in early 2012 with the estimated project completion time of 2025.

The Indian Navy too joined with the AMCA project with air force and other Indian state owned, Private aviation sectors and electric companies to build and assist the AMCA project. Foreign collaboration also sought for this project, since crucial hardware's like radar and engines comes from abroad only.

The AMCA preliminary design was changed several times, to adopt new model engines, Radar's and long range missiles. Like how the A 10 developed to carry the GAU 8 Avenger cannon. The AMCA also developed to carry multi national equipment's like Missiles, Radar's and Engines.

Currently more than 4000 employers assigned into the AMCA project,where they extracted from ADA, DRDO, HAL and some other leading private companies. The AMCA team identified three major technical works. Which are Thrust vectoring, super cruise Engines, Active radar's and other processing system and the radar absorbent material.

*Engine*

India asks for a joint development of fifth generation engines with foreign nations. It's reported India might need more than 2000 plus Engines for AMCA. India already has initiated a Engine project named Kaveri. India wants the new engine who powers the AMCA must be based on the Kaveri. In response many foreign nations responded for the Joint Engine development program.







 Currently three countries tries to seal the AMCA engine development program. US, France and England offers their known engine companies like General Electric, Snecma and Rolls Royce respectively. GE from America offered engine development based on the F 414 engine, and the Snecma announced the M 88 engine who powers the Rafale and the Rolls Royce also offered the EJ 200 engine for joint development with Kaveri.

As per last known reports, US company General Electric leads in the program. who already supplying F 404 engines for LCA Tejas. GE also set ups manufacturing plants in India to produce aviation engines in India.

*Radar *

As same like every other fifth generation fighters, The AMCA too hosts superior avionics and sensor suites. The AMCA hosts new generation GaN based AESA for superior detection and performance. Currently there is no fighter jets has GaN based AESA radars. However many ground based radar available with GaN transceiver modules.




Some information's reported that, state owned LRDE is initiated a project to develop a small size air borne X band GaN based AESA radar for AMCA. LRDE already shows a model of AESA radar in last years Aero India exhibition. However the Uttam is not good for fifth generation fighters like AMCA.

It's reported earlier that, India and Israel working for a joint project to develop a GaN based AESA for fighter jets. However due to the importance of the program the information's are highly classified. It's clear the Radar too be a joint venture between either US or Israel.

*Sensor*

The infrared based systems like IRST, missile warning systems, laser warning system also added internally in the AMCA. The IRST sensors are placed in all sides of the AMCA to provide full angle coverage like in Rafale and F 35. The proposed IRST system is work similar to the F 35's EOTS who shares the information's to friendly units like via the satellite and highly secured data links.

AMCA also comes with self protection jammer system to jam enemy radar guided missiles from both air and ground. electronic counter measure systems to confuse the infrared guided missiles and a radar warning receiver too added to detect enemy radar frequency's.

The Senor suites in AMCA led by the LRDE and BEL which include many private and foreign contributes.

It's Reported the AMCA will be ready by early 2020 or before and HAL starts flying the first flight of fully developed AMCA by 2021. with the initial low rate initial production by 2024. And the air force gets the first AMCA squad by 2025. If all things goes per schedule
source- Life of Soldiers: Update on AMCA

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## #hydra#

mkb95 said:


> *Update on AMCA *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMCA is another project to develop a medium weight combat aircraft, which having fifth generation capabilities like active sensor and processing systems, internal weapon carriage capability, precision strike capability and invisible to enemy radars. The AMCA work initiated in early 2012 with the estimated project completion time of 2025.
> 
> The Indian Navy too joined with the AMCA project with air force and other Indian state owned, Private aviation sectors and electric companies to build and assist the AMCA project. Foreign collaboration also sought for this project, since crucial hardware's like radar and engines comes from abroad only.
> 
> The AMCA preliminary design was changed several times, to adopt new model engines, Radar's and long range missiles. Like how the A 10 developed to carry the GAU 8 Avenger cannon. The AMCA also developed to carry multi national equipment's like Missiles, Radar's and Engines.
> 
> Currently more than 4000 employers assigned into the AMCA project,where they extracted from ADA, DRDO, HAL and some other leading private companies. The AMCA team identified three major technical works. Which are Thrust vectoring, super cruise Engines, Active radar's and other processing system and the radar absorbent material.
> 
> *Engine*
> 
> India asks for a joint development of fifth generation engines with foreign nations. It's reported India might need more than 2000 plus Engines for AMCA. India already has initiated a Engine project named Kaveri. India wants the new engine who powers the AMCA must be based on the Kaveri. In response many foreign nations responded for the Joint Engine development program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Currently three countries tries to seal the AMCA engine development program. US, France and England offers their known engine companies like General Electric, Snecma and Rolls Royce respectively. GE from America offered engine development based on the F 414 engine, and the Snecma announced the M 88 engine who powers the Rafale and the Rolls Royce also offered the EJ 200 engine for joint development with Kaveri.
> 
> As per last known reports, US company General Electric leads in the program. who already supplying F 404 engines for LCA Tejas. GE also set ups manufacturing plants in India to produce aviation engines in India.
> 
> *Radar *
> 
> As same like every other fifth generation fighters, The AMCA too hosts superior avionics and sensor suites. The AMCA hosts new generation GaN based AESA for superior detection and performance. Currently there is no fighter jets has GaN based AESA radars. However many ground based radar available with GaN transceiver modules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some information's reported that, state owned LRDE is initiated a project to develop a small size air borne X band GaN based AESA radar for AMCA. LRDE already shows a model of AESA radar in last years Aero India exhibition. However the Uttam is not good for fifth generation fighters like AMCA.
> 
> It's reported earlier that, India and Israel working for a joint project to develop a GaN based AESA for fighter jets. However due to the importance of the program the information's are highly classified. It's clear the Radar too be a joint venture between either US or Israel.
> 
> *Sensor*
> 
> The infrared based systems like IRST, missile warning systems, laser warning system also added internally in the AMCA. The IRST sensors are placed in all sides of the AMCA to provide full angle coverage like in Rafale and F 35. The proposed IRST system is work similar to the F 35's EOTS who shares the information's to friendly units like via the satellite and highly secured data links.
> 
> AMCA also comes with self protection jammer system to jam enemy radar guided missiles from both air and ground. electronic counter measure systems to confuse the infrared guided missiles and a radar warning receiver too added to detect enemy radar frequency's.
> 
> The Senor suites in AMCA led by the LRDE and BEL which include many private and foreign contributes.
> 
> It's Reported the AMCA will be ready by early 2020 or before and HAL starts flying the first flight of fully developed AMCA by 2021. with the initial low rate initial production by 2024. And the air force gets the first AMCA squad by 2025. If all things goes per schedule
> source- Life of Soldiers: Update on AMCA


What's the advantages of GaN based radars?


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## sasum

Is it true, except for Airframe, nothing is indigenous in AMCA?


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## AMCA

sasum said:


> Is it true, except for Airframe, nothing is indigenous in AMCA?



With over 2000 In house vendor base, do you think this project is gonna be any less indigenous? Engines and Radar do not make an airplane, not even 10% of it.

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## Tejasfan7

HAL/ADA has to tackle both challenges ie. engine development and fighter development in parallel. Given the complexity involved in engine development that are powerful enough to power supersonic jet engine, we should de-link it from fighter development which it self is very challenging. 

IMHO HAL-ADA should put AMCA with GE/foreign engine on priority instead of going step by step to tejas-MK2 and then to AMCA. The later (or current route) will suck up all resources without leaving space for engine development which will bring HAL-ADA to square one even if AMCA is ready as engine will be still imported. 

Instead this is what i propose.

1. Let HAL produce tejas-mk1a in +300 numbers incentivizing the private players to stay invested while encouraging them to upgrade to next gen systems. 

2. Abandon the plan to use GE engine for tejas-mk2 and let derivative of kaveri engine power it. any enhancement in tejas-mk1a is not worth redesigning for yet another imported engine. 

3. let navy buy imported naval fighter instead of waiting for tejas-mk2 as these numbers are really small. so not enough incentive for diverting hal limited resources for this aircraft. 

4. HAL-ADA should speed up AMCA with GE engine and after that may be AMCA-mk2 can be with Indian engine.


this way jet development will not hinder engine development and vice versa.


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## randomradio

sasum said:


> Is it true, except for Airframe, nothing is indigenous in AMCA?



No such thing. The main imported component of the AMCA will be the engine. The rest is expected to be indigenized. MoD is also working out a plan to wholly indigenize the engine in India. There will most likely be a second engine program for an AMCA class jet. 

Engine tech is also changing a lot. Generic turbofans may eventually become obsolete. We will need hybrid engines that combine turbofans, ramjets and scramjets into one single propulsion system. That's the future. The Avatar program is expected to combine turboramjet with scramjet.

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## sasum

randomradio said:


> No such thing. The main imported component of the AMCA will be the engine. The rest is expected to be indigenized. MoD is also working out a plan to wholly indigenize the engine in India. There will most likely be a second engine program for an AMCA class jet.
> 
> Engine tech is also changing a lot. Generic turbofans may eventually become obsolete. We will need hybrid engines that combine turbofans, ramjets and scramjets into one single propulsion system. That's the future. The Avatar program is expected to combine turboramjet with scramjet.


Not to talk of Engine, avionics suite, radar, stealth paint...even cockpit seat will be imported. Scramjet is not suitable for Fighter plane which needs to decelerate suddenly.


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## randomradio

sasum said:


> Not to talk of Engine, avionics suite, radar, stealth paint...even cockpit seat will be imported.



The engine will be GE, but made in India. The rest will be Indian. NAL is already testing RAS composites.

The ejection seat doesn't have to be indigenized. It can be bought off the shelf. It doesn't affect anything.



> Scramjet is not suitable for Fighter plane which needs to decelerate suddenly.



The engines will activate based on what's required of the aircraft. The turbofan will be used for maneuvers in the lower atmosphere while scramjet will be used in the upper atmosphere.

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## knight11

#hydra# said:


> What's the advantages of GaN based radars?



1. *GaN gallium nitride* based components is suited for military radar application due to high power aplifier *(HPAs)* in transmit and could be used as limiters and low noise amplifiers *(LNAs)* in the reciever.

2. Higher radiated power per element increases range, reduces antenna size (area/module count) thus reduces cost per radiated watt lower.

3. Higher voltage operation redures current requirement.

Problem is to maturity, manufacturing and initial cost.

For layman GaN for fixed power level is twice costly than GaA, 1/3 to 1/4 in size, cost per watt 50-60% of GaA.

*In short*

GaN is future of Aesa period.

But depends on the thinking and the perception of the developer and the user, Some might find Pesa even better than Aesa due to simplicity, and lower cost and less comparative disadvantage and for the Gignos I got Aesa you got Pesa I am better and I got GaN based so I am supreme.

*
Baki Lagge Raho *



sasum said:


> Not to talk of Engine, avionics suite, radar, stealth paint...even cockpit seat will be imported. Scramjet is not suitable for Fighter plane which needs to decelerate suddenly.



Janab do you know the member named @Indian patriot

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## 1ndy

@sasum

Even if we able to design the stealth airframe while not compromising the aerodynamic performance is itself an achievement worth noting. Rest is just avionics modules that can be replace or upgraded later on.


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## sasum

1ndy said:


> @sasum
> 
> Even if we able to design the stealth airframe while not compromising the aerodynamic performance is itself an achievement worth noting. Rest is just avionics modules that can be replace or upgraded later on.


This approach, my friend, is not right. India has always been weak in fundamentals. If we had a viable grounds up approach, today we wouldn't have to put up with humiliations heaped upon us by foreign companies and Govt. in the form of Technology denials, overpricing, sanctions, withholding supply of spares and what not. Remember, someone who's cardiovascular, kidney, brain and other vitals are not in good health can not compete with poster boys of the town by going for the latest hairdo and attire.


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## Water Car Engineer

Shows a mix of old and newer designs.






You can assign which is the newer and older design with above diagram, which shows the design progression.






Seems to be one of the early, early design.

When it was labeled, MCA, not AMCA. Looks like a twin engined LCA.

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## Armani

Please let me know if you can't see all 4 images below :

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## #hydra#

randomradio said:


> The engine will be GE, but made in India. The rest will be Indian. NAL is already testing RAS composites.
> 
> The ejection seat doesn't have to be indigenized. It can be bought off the shelf. It doesn't affect anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The engines will activate based on what's required of the aircraft. The turbofan will be used for maneuvers in the lower atmosphere while scramjet will be used in the upper atmosphere.


Black bird was used such hybrid engine,Yeas its true that it less manuerabl.

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## fsayed

HAL AMCA India’s fifth generation fighter update

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## #hydra#

2tonne internnal weapon storage?way too inadequate....


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## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> 2tonne internnal weapon storage?way too inadequate....



The F-22's is smaller.


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## fsayed

#hydra# said:


> 2tonne internnal weapon storage?way too inadequate....


Quiet enough for SEAD AND DEAD

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## #hydra#

fsayed said:


> Quiet enough for SEAD AND DEAD


Rafale 9t,mki 8t,even LCA is having 4+t carrying capacity.


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## fsayed

#hydra# said:


> Rafale 9t,mki 8t,even LCA is having 4+t carrying capacity.


Bro it's internal weapon carrying capacity is 2ton. Wing external hard point if fully loaded it can easily carry approx 8ton including internal+ external

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## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> Rafale 9t,mki 8t,even LCA is having 4+t carrying capacity.



AMCA will have 8t payload, 2t is in the weapons bays.

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## SvenSvensonov

#hydra# said:


> Black bird was used such hybrid engine,



One of several designs that would fit the "Partial Ramjet" category. The X-7 helped pioneer the design that would eventually grace the Blackbird:







The Blackbird used what could be called a Turboramjet, the J58, which provided higher trust when operating at higher speeds versus lower ones:






You can't lay the performance of the engine solely on its design, though. The nacelle it sat in provided benefits too - specifically the shock spike:






And you're right that this type of engine design is less maneuverable as it was designed to operate at sustained high speeds where fuel economy was also greater as a consequence. A drop in speed lessened the engine's efficiency.

If course it didn't help that the SR-71 was 107 feet long. Which that size and being optimized for high speed missions, both by your design and engine and mission, you'd be hard-pressed not to have a turn radius the size of Texas.

"_We come from the Planet United States of America, prepare to have your airspace probed!!_"






Instead of a Turboramjet design, which is optimized for sustained high-speeds, a type of ADVENT engine would be best for a future fighter aircraft:






ADVENT or Adaptive Versatile Engine Technology engines are designed to be what their name suggests, adaptable, and can adjust their performance at lower or higher speeds, as well as their fuel economy. This type of engine lessens the necessity of dedicated high-speed optimized engines like the J58 and engines that perform better at slow-to-medium speeds.

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## fsayed

randomradio said:


> AMCA will have 8t payload, 2t is in the weapons bays.


Yes in internal weapons bay that would enough for DEAD and sead

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## #hydra#

fsayed said:


> Bro it's internal weapon carrying capacity is 2ton. Wing external hard point if fully loaded it can easily carry approx 8ton including internal+ external


Tnq u....,but external weapon configuration will kill the very purposes of amca ie enter enemy airspace being undetected.


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## Ankit Kumar

Its better to throw this project down the dustbin if we are not vying for an Indian Power plant here. 

Else I see this as Debacle LCA PART 2.


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## Perpendicular

Ankit Kumar said:


> Its better to throw this project down the dustbin if we are not vying for an Indian Power plant here.
> 
> Else I see this as Debacle LCA PART 2.


Even with the purposed GE engine it's not going to be a true fifth gen aircraft anyway. And that's one of the items by the way. 
R & D is what required to achieve that capability.

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## Ankit Kumar

Perpendicular said:


> Even with the purposed GE engine it's not going to be a true fifth gen aircraft anyway. And that's one of the items by the way.
> R & D is what required to achieve that capability.



Before even thinking about AMCA it should be the subsystems which should be our focus. 
An Indian AESA radar in service which can be improved in future to be used IN AMCA , Indian ECM systems , Indian Power plant , thought we can take Russian help to get thrust vectoring , Indian Infrared and RF based AAMs, light weight cruise missiles , next generation small diameter laser and GPS guided munitions ,aircraft cannon ,Indian refueling probe , Indian next generation Onboard Oxygen generating system ,Indian secure radio and satellite links ,Indian IRST , Indian Targeting pod ,Indian HMDS,Indian HOTAS, etc. 

When we have all these, we will be able to design an Indian 5th gen aircraft which in true sense will have multi role capability and will be sanction proof.

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## #hydra#

Ankit Kumar said:


> Before even thinking about AMCA it should be the subsystems which should be our focus.
> An Indian AESA radar in service which can be improved in future to be used IN AMCA , Indian ECM systems , Indian Power plant , thought we can take Russian help to get thrust vectoring , Indian Infrared and RF based AAMs, light weight cruise missiles , next generation small diameter laser and GPS guided munitions ,aircraft cannon ,Indian refueling probe , Indian next generation Onboard Oxygen generating system ,Indian secure radio and satellite links ,Indian IRST , Indian Targeting pod ,Indian HMDS,Indian HOTAS, etc.
> 
> When we have all these, we will be able to design an Indian 5th gen aircraft which in true sense will have multi role capability and will be sanction proof.


Then AMCA will never be a reality,we can't make whole fifth gen aircraft alone.


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## Ankit Kumar

#hydra# said:


> Then AMCA will never be a reality,we can't make whole fifth gen aircraft alone.



That will be a better option then. Simply buy off the shelf , and buy the assembling rights and then carry on as we have been doing.


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## #hydra#

Ankit Kumar said:


> That will be a better option then. Simply buy off the shelf , and buy the assembling rights and then carry on as we have been doing.


I will prefer tejas like drama over ridiculous rafale like saga.

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## Sahil.universal

Y dont they put a GE 414 EPE in the mk 2...? It would make it future proof


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## GURU DUTT

Sahil.universal said:


> Y dont they put a GE 414 EPE in the mk 2...? It would make it future proof


chances are high for GE141 EPE version in first batch of AMCA if india goes for advance super hornet instead of F16V or grippen E as the second MRCA under MII


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## zebra7

Sahil.universal said:


> Y dont they put a GE 414 EPE in the mk 2...? It would make it future proof



Because there is no EPE version, rather its a proposal and India have to bear the development cost.

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## randomradio

Sahil.universal said:


> Y dont they put a GE 414 EPE in the mk 2...? It would make it future proof



That could happen. But the current EPE version has a service life of only 2000 hours.

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## kali

What is the status of the program and how much money India spend on this program?
Can drdo complete the program in a time frame?


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## Sahil.universal

At out current Def budget 55bil aproxx... It seems hard to develop to true 5th Gen, within a few years when the budget crosses 70 odd bil [2019 -2020 ] I guess . They might start the project will full force.
If this programme is handled by the new gen of engineers like with the HTT40, THERE might be a chance, otherwise idk 

( before anyone kills me over this post NOT A PRO AT DEFENCE, )


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## kaykay

Sahil.universal said:


> At out current Def budget 55bil aproxx... It seems hard to develop to true 5th Gen, within a few years when the budget crosses 70 odd bil [2019 -2020 ] I guess . They might start the project will full force.
> If this programme is handled by the new gen of engineers like with the HTT40, THERE might be a chance, otherwise idk
> 
> ( before anyone kills me over this post NOT A PRO AT DEFENCE, )


Defence budget has absolutely nothing to do with 'development' of a project.....for eg, govt allocates fund for development of Tejas and not IAF from their own fund except some exceptional cases.

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## SR-91

Sahil.universal said:


> At out current Def budget 55bil aproxx... It seems hard to develop to true 5th Gen, within a few years when the budget crosses 70 odd bil [2019 -2020 ] I guess . They might start the project will full force.
> If this programme is handled by the new gen of engineers like with the HTT40, THERE might be a chance, otherwise idk
> 
> ( before anyone kills me over this post NOT A PRO AT DEFENCE, )




Shouldn't worry too much about the budget after all we are home of 75 million dollar MARS Mission.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

*AMCA Mission Simulator





*

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## kaykay

Can anyone tell about progress on AMCA front...I believe design is frozen and we are working on first TD...true?

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

kaykay said:


> Can anyone tell about progress on AMCA front...I believe design is frozen and we are working on first TD...true?



YES, structural modelling is going on, after that will come manufacturing.

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## fsayed

http://idrw.org/iaf-take-final-call-amcas-engine-drdo-chief/#more-100402
IAF to take final call on AMCA’s engine : DRDO Chief
DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher speaking to media has confirmed that Defence ministry in principal has given clearance to India’s 5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter jet which is a twin-engine fighter jet with stealth technology .

Chief also confirmed that necessary precaution has been taken to avoid the repeat of mistakes which plagued LCA-Tejas program and key industries have been identified for the supply of systems, sub-assemblies and components.

when it comes to the selection of engine to power AMCA Chief said that final call will be taken by Indian Air Force, But discussions are already on with potential collaborators for design and manufacture of these engines in the country.

Washington has signaled its willingness to co-develop aircraft engine with India for India’s indigenous fifth-generation AMCA fighter project . DRDO want General Electric Aviation (GE) to uprate its 98 KiloNewtons (KN) GE-F414IN engine to produce 110 KN of thrust to meets AMCA twin engine requirements .

European Eurojet too has offered its Uprated EJ200 engines for India’s AMCA fighter jet which are currently been used to power Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets and have briefed DRDO officials but has met with lukewarm response from Indian defence ministry till now.

India’s GTRE too is silently also working on development of a Kaveri engine derivative which can generate 80 KiloNewtons (KN) of peak power which in later phases will be uprated to 90 KiloNewtons (KN) ultimately leading to development of 110 KiloNewtons (KN) for which GTRE already has made plans to produce 20 80 KN engines in next 3-4 years for testing purpose .

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## Sahil.universal

Can't the work with Saturn al31?


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## DesiGuy1403

Suddenly AMCA is finding a lot of traction.

Is the govt backing the project completely, hence the traction or is it run of the mill process?


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## migflug

Sahil.universal said:


> Can't the work with Saturn al31?


engine is not reliable enough as u can see it in context with su 30mki. Also too big for a medium size aircraft, old tech since new al41 is much better.

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## Sahil.universal

Agree with Al 41 but they just want 120Kn thrust. And in twin engine configuration reliability is not too much of an issue. 
Plus they need TVC... Has GE414 EPE GOT any tvc cousins?


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## Abingdonboy

Sahil.universal said:


> Agree with Al 41 but they just want 120Kn thrust. And in twin engine configuration reliability is not too much of an issue.
> Plus they need TVC... Has GE414 EPE GOT any tvc cousins?


Reliability absolutely IS an issue as it directly relates to the TBO and lifespan of the engine not to mention availbility of the fleet in general. The AL-31, despite costing only 30% less than a M88 or EJ-2000 these more modern engines are able to deliver 300-400% greater lifespans and barely require any overhauls at all. Engine issues are the greatest cause of fighters being u/s or AOG, reduce the issues with reliability and you will have greater availability of the fleet at all times.

It's time to migrate to Western tech IMO if India is going to operate its kit to Western margins (ie high tempo peace time operations).

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## SR-91

Back in 2012, snecma and GOI tried to JV to build an engine to be used on LCA. GOI wanted to use Kaveri hot-core, so they could build on what they learned from Kaveri. Snecma wanted to use M88 core and GOI couldn't get the French to come on board the project.

Today is a different story, not only Snecma will help DRDO/GTRE finish Kaveri project but they will invest 1 billion Euros. Snecma/GTRE will take 2-3 years to finish the job. 

You can be absolutely sure, there will be uprated version to it. Who knows, maybe AMCA engine is also on the card, maybe not in the beginning but you will see it in future versions.

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## Water Car Engineer

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> *AMCA Mission Simulator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *




Excellent find.

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## Star Wars

Wait until IAF sets up hyperdrive requirement for amca to scuttle the project.

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## fsayed



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## Tshering22

Star Wars said:


> Wait until IAF sets up hyperdrive requirement for amca to scuttle the project.



MOD neeeds to force IAF. No other choice.

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## SR-91

Star Wars said:


> Wait until IAF sets up hyperdrive requirement for amca to scuttle the project.



IMO, instead of going with 110kn power they should go with 120-125kn you begin with. IAF will change its mind later on and before they do, be ready now.

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## Agent_47

Can some one clean up the AMCA wiki page. Its full of factual errors. MTOW is quoted as 36 ton WTF? when its clearly stated as 24.5 ton by DRDO/ADA people. They are adding every rumors by quoting desi journalists which is never good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_AMCA

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Ready for Testing

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Water Car Engineer

PARIKRAMA said:


>





Older design.

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## Śakra

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Ready for Testing



DSI?!?!

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## Foxbat Alok

Can u post some pic of final design of AMÇA @Water Car Engineer


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## Water Car Engineer

Foxbat Alok said:


> Can u post some pic of final design of AMÇA @Water Car Engineer




I am not sure where the design is at right now, or if it's frozen.

This is the latest ---






You can see what @P posted at, "3B-07". This diagram is a year+ old, however.

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## ni8mare

Foxbat Alok said:


> Can u post some pic of final design of AMÇA @Water Car Engineer

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## MilSpec

ni8mare said:


> View attachment 325658
> View attachment 325659


We should be looking to build Low RCS External weapons (Stealth gondola) bay for LCA/Amca.



Star Wars said:


> Wait until IAF sets up hyperdrive requirement for amca to scuttle the project.


I don't want to sound all doom and gloom, but I do worry about this being a very real concern.

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## mkb95

New Images From India’s AMCA Programme

LIVEFIST·WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 31, 2016




India’s 5th Generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is progressing well now in its second phase of development with several parts of the aircraft and configuration locked.
Just chanced upon this new image from the AMCA’s stealth structures workshop at the National Aerospace Laboratory, providing an updated view of the engineering going into the serpentine intakes of the concept jet.




The above image follows the series of photographs and technical illustrations accessed by Livefist over the years, depicting the engineering approach to the AMCA’s low-observability surfaces. Some of the previous ones:














And finally, chanced upon this -- a full AMCA mission scenario simulator is up and running at the Aeronautical Development Agency in Bengaluru. Here it is:





source- https://www.facebook.com/notes/live...05816429203&mf_story_key=-1820688383629045954

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## Water Car Engineer

@Armani

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## Ali Zadi

"Consultation of GTRE"

Interesting


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## debspark90

Water Car Engineer said:


> @Armani



What specifications of engine are these for ?? Are these for the participating foreign vendors for the AMCA engine ?


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## Bad Guy

Water Car Engineer said:


> @Armani


Interesting find.
Are specs are not decided yet?
And can you please provide me the link?


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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/790126165444796416

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/790126394772639745

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## #hydra#

The way in which us offers the f16,and premature killing of LCA forces me to think that in future they may offer f22 and we dumb Indians will dump amca fighter program altogether in favour for such offer.
@dadeechi @GURU DUTT @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @Water Car Engineer

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## debspark90

#hydra# said:


> The way in which us offers the f16,and premature killing of LCA forces me to think that in future they may offer f22 and we dumb Indians will dump amca fighter program altogether in favour for such offer.
> @dadeechi @GURU DUTT @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @Water Car Engineer


Just because they are offering doesn't mean we will accept it. Why do you think we will blindly take it just because it has a huge fan following and a big name. We have to see if its in our interest or not first.

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## duhastmish

debspark90 said:


> Just because they are offering doesn't mean we will accept it. Why do you think we will blindly take it just because it has a huge fan following and a big name. We have to see if its in our interest or not first.


Not us but iaf.
IAF loves usd. And foreign toys.

I bet it will be f35 too late and am a will be shunted.

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## GURU DUTT

#hydra# said:


> The way in which us offers the f16,and premature killing of LCA forces me to think that in future they may offer f22 and we dumb Indians will dump amca fighter program altogether in favour for such offer.
> @dadeechi @GURU DUTT @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @Water Car Engineer


no matter if its like we are on verge of cracking the code or the matrix or whaever is the technical term to it ... point is whenever we want some cutting edge tech they never give us and want us to buy it but when we start our own R&D and when they know we are close to developing it ourself and they have the next level or even higher they at almost breakneck proce offer us that tech to kill our R&D and its a old trick to keep your traditional client a client and dont let him become a potential competitor 

but here despite all bravado we are not in a position to make more than 30 tejas (which is minnimum we require to break even our dwindling squad stregnth) not even if we have 36+18 fully french built rafales and some 90 made in india ones we still need at least 126-162 more fighter and that gab could be filled by F16 and in doing so we get another dimension is aircraft manufacturing technequices from americans while we are already getting french tech from dassault and russian inputs from sukhoi and we can combine them all with lessons learned from LCA project to make up on time lost on AMCA project

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## #hydra#

GURU DUTT said:


> no matter if its like we are on verge of cracking the code or the matrix or whaever is the technical term to it ... point is whenever we want some cutting edge tech they never give us and want us to buy it but when we start our own R&D and when they know we are close to developing it ourself and they have the next level or even higher they at almost breakneck proce offer us that tech to kill our R&D and its a old trick to keep your traditional client a client and dont let him become a potential competitor
> 
> but here despite all bravado we are not in a position to make more than 30 tejas (which is minnimum we require to break even our dwindling squad stregnth) not even if we have 36+18 fully french built rafales and some 90 made in india ones we still need at least 126-162 more fighter and that gab could be filled by F16 and in doing so we get another dimension is aircraft manufacturing technequices from americans while we are already getting french tech from dassault and russian inputs from sukhoi and we can combine them all with lessons learned from LCA project to make up on time lost on AMCA project


May be,but why to invest on wrestler in death bed.

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## GURU DUTT

#hydra# said:


> May be,but why to invest on wrestler in death bed.


well in old days when they had to make up with a old enemy they used to wed a teenage princess with the old king seems simmlar case to me here its more of a political gamble to get the best manufacturing technologies and weapons realted technologies which we tried for over fifty years but niether frenchies nor the ruskies gave us and kept using carrot and stik in name of TOT with us 

but even in its latest avtar with latest so called ground approaching systems or landing gear whatever fabcy name they have for it or its compouter controlled and DATALINKED combined avionics & electronik warfare counter measures suites or the weapons package and Radar and cackpit design or the allied systems F16 Blk70/72 is very close if not better to rafale in all these parameteres plus its very very cost effective to buy mantian and fly and will remain cutting e3dge weapons tech for at least two if not more decades to come


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## abc123xyx

AMCA 

a fighter aircraft without a engine!!!


----------



## $@rJen

http://idrw.org/latest-update-on-amca-navy-in-iaf-puts-a-number-and-drdo-working-on-final-design/


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## lover

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830319375202803712

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## Water Car Engineer



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## RISING SUN

debspark90 said:


> Just because they are offering doesn't mean we will accept it. Why do you think we will blindly take it just because it has a huge fan following and a big name. We have to see if its in our interest or not first.


IAF might be wrong I don't know. But what I know is that DRDO and Hal haven't delivered a simple nible fighter jet in last thirty years time. You may call things in my opinion they have plundered my tax money. Hope government tightens some screws ASAP. You give IAF a material which it can't reject, but for that you have to deliver first. You can twist and dance around everything passing blame on IAF and Navy but in my eyes DRDO and Hal haven't done any thing significant in last thirty years. Hopefully government puts a proper maker checker concept in this company with accountability.


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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Still with round exhaust


----------



## lover

India's 5th Gen AMCA gets fresh detail in this new DRDO video at #AeroIndia2017.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=371540606561953

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## 帅的一匹

RISING SUN said:


> IAF might be wrong I don't know. But what I know is that DRDO and Hal haven't delivered a simple nible fighter jet in last thirty years time. You may call things in my opinion they have plundered my tax money. Hope government tightens some screws ASAP. You give IAF a material which it can't reject, but for that you have to deliver first. You can twist and dance around everything passing blame on IAF and Navy but in my eyes DRDO and Hal haven't done any thing significant in last thirty years. Hopefully government puts a proper maker checker concept in this company with accountability.


If India can induct Gripen assembly line, DRDO can have a rest.


----------



## Water Car Engineer



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## RISING SUN

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Only thing which concerns me a lot is that I have been excellent presentations since year 2000 but not much on ground. That doesn't mean I am pessimistic but rather it is concerned with work culture and pushing things using lobbying media & influencial persons.



wanglaokan said:


> If India can induct Gripen assembly line, DRDO can have a rest.


DRDO is not concerned with Gripen rather it's HAL which will loose the job. And being a government company they think it will be like earlier as usual. This time they have got a minister who belongs to engineering. So their all bubble goes bust. In this field I consider Chinese way ahead in a way that at least they appoint engineers only in ministerial post.

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## Water Car Engineer

DARE-developed Sub-systems for FGFA AMCA

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## Water Car Engineer

*As your correspondent reports, the first 1:1 full scale model of India’s fifth generation concept Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is being built in Bengaluru. Later this year, the model will undergo a series of rigorous tests at an RCS facility in Hyderabad, where the programme team will have its fest chance at seeing how the shape they’ve chosen for the jet deals with radiation. The exercise will be historic. Because it will be the first time India will be specifically testing a stealth airframe.*


http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html

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## Water Car Engineer



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## mansoor raja

No side bay .. it AMCA can carry only 2 A2A missile to defend joke


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## X_Killer

mansoor raja said:


> No side bay .. it AMCA can carry only 2 A2A missile to defend joke


There are different weapon configurations according to the desired war/mission profile.


----------



## Water Car Engineer



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## 帅的一匹

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Continue to cheat tax payers' money, a small size fighter with twin engine means short legged. A stealthy LCA? Can we expect it make first flight in year 2029?



Water Car Engineer said:


>


It's more like a home range hood for me. Who the hell will only demonstrate a single intake? Wow India! Genius. Is it because this AMCA is invisible so that I can only see the intake?! I bet my life that AMCA is just another cheap shot by ADA and his fellow HAL.

Where you gonna place the fuels in this tiny fuselage with twin engine?





Laugh my a$$ off I thought it was a dust collector.



AMCA said:


> With over 2000 In house vendor base, do you think this project is gonna be any less indigenous? Engines and Radar do not make an airplane, not even 10% of it.


At least you can make a steel model.



HariPrasad said:


> Yes, That is why the support of others are required. We are one generation behind in Aero engine technology.


It's not how many generations you got behind. Actually you don't have any reputable engine technology. Tell me what kind of engine you can produce? Face the reality and stop cheating gullible Indians.

It's just another blind project by ADA without knowing IAF's requirement. Another cheap shot of staying relevant by giving out deceptive expectation. The final result will be same as LCA, rejected by Indian Air Force. How many time Indians need to learn that IAF doesn't want any garbage produced by HAL?

@Beast How lame will this AMCA be compared with LCA?

ADA/DRDO/HAL never give a complete clarity on their throw down. It's a disaster in the making.

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## Han Patriot

Guys,

Can we just let them dream? At least they can have some hope. Do you know the amount of grape juice flowing out of their nostrils when they saw J-20, the first time? If we didn't show them that, they would have taken their own sweet time.

Be prepared for 20 years of testing and modifications.

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## Echo_419

wanglaokan said:


> Continue to cheat tax payers' money, a small size fighter with twin engine means short legged. A stealthy LCA? Can we expect it make first flight in year 2029?
> 
> 
> It's more like a home range hood for me. Who the hell will only demonstrate a single intake? Wow India! Genius. Is it because this AMCA is invisible so that I can only see the intake?! I bet my life that AMCA is just another cheap shot by ADA and his fellow HAL.
> 
> Where you gonna place the fuels in this tiny fuselage with twin engine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laugh my a$$ off I thought it was a dust collector.
> 
> 
> At least you can make a steel model.
> 
> 
> It's not how many generations you got behind. Actually you don't have any reputable engine technology. Tell me what kind of engine you can produce? Face the reality and stop cheating gullible Indians.
> 
> It's just another blind project by ADA without knowing IAF's requirement. Another cheap shot of staying relevant by giving out deceptive expectation. The final result will be same as LCA, rejected by Indian Air Force. How many time Indians need to learn that IAF doesn't want any garbage produced by HAL?
> 
> @Beast How lame will this AMCA be compared with LCA?
> 
> ADA/DRDO/HAL never give a complete clarity on their throw down. It's a disaster in the making.



cry more

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## Water Car Engineer

wanglaokan said:


> It's more like a home range hood for me. Who the hell will only demonstrate a single intake? Wow India! Genius. Is it because this AMCA is invisible so that I can only see the intake?! I bet my life that AMCA is just another cheap shot by ADA and his fellow HAL.




How do you know that's the only intake? A full 1:1 model of the AMCA is being built right now for RCS measurement, this includes intakes. Why is your *** burning so much from this, if you seemingly dont care? All you guys do is say someone talkings too much, but all you guys do on forums is talk too much and take credit for people in your country that do the work.

Plus, individual pieces can be measured, and have been done.

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## 帅的一匹

Water Car Engineer said:


> How do you know that's the only intake? A full 1:1 model of the AMCA is being built right now for RCS measurement, this includes intakes. Why is your *** burning so much from this, if you seemingly dont care? All you guys do is say someone talkings too much, but all you guys do on forums is talk too much and take credit for people in your country that do the work.
> 
> Plus, individual pieces can be measured, and have been done.


We know ADA/HAL/DRDo's set pattern. hopefully they can pull it off within 20 years, my best regards!

It's not burning, it's mocking.

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## Water Car Engineer

wanglaokan said:


> We know ADA/HAL/DRDo's set pattern. hopefully they can pull it off within 20 years, my best regards!
> 
> It's not burning, it's mocking.




It's called, talking too much, keep it moving.

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## amardeep mishra

wanglaokan said:


> It's not how many generations you got behind. Actually you don't have any reputable engine technology. Tell me what kind of engine you can produce? Face the reality and stop cheating gullible Indians.


Hi @wanglaokan
There is no doubt that china is ahead of India in terms of research,however gas turbine research in india happened to be much more matured compared to china till atleast 2012.It is only now that china has started pumping in huge sums of money in GT research. And if India doesnt pump in huge sums of money in GTRE we'll lose this edge over china.(by edge I mean intellectual property rights!)
I can comment on this because I happen to know a couple of people at GTRE and they clearly said that both India and China used to visit Gromov research Institute for high altitude testing of their aero engines-particularly kaveri and WS-13(I guess) and Chinese engine failed to perform satisfactory in "all" the regimes. Whereas Kaveri had shortfall only in wet thrust. Russian engineers who were onboard the IL-76 flying lab bear testimony to this. The reason why China is flying a lot of their aircrafts with their WS engines is simply because they are being flown "sub-optimally" ,In fact kaveri itself can be flown sub-optimally in LCA. Now with the offset clause though,kaveri will indeed get rid of final obstacle.
Finally there are a lot of other things that I so wish I could write,however since they aint in public domain yet,I would have to refrain from commenting.Good Day my friend!

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## Fledgingwings

Still drawings so far.No prototype


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## Han Patriot

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @wanglaokan
> There is no doubt that china is ahead of India in terms of research,however gas turbine research in india happened to be much more matured compared to china till atleast 2012.It is only now that china has started pumping in huge sums of money in GT research. And if India doesnt pump in huge sums of money in GTRE we'll lose this edge over china.(by edge I mean intellectual property rights!)
> I can comment on this because I happen to know a couple of people at GTRE and they clearly said that both India and China used to visit Gromov research Institute for high altitude testing of their aero engines-particularly kaveri and WS-13(I guess) and Chinese engine failed to perform satisfactory in "all" the regimes. Whereas Kaveri had shortfall only in wet thrust. Russian engineers who were onboard the IL-76 flying lab bear testimony to this. The reason why China is flying a lot of their aircrafts with their WS engines is simply because they are being flown "sub-optimally" ,In fact kaveri itself can be flown sub-optimally in LCA. Now with the offset clause though,kaveri will indeed get rid of final obstacle.
> Finally there are a lot of other things that I so wish I could write,however since they aint in public domain yet,I would have to refrain from commenting.Good Day my friend!


Chinese engines tested in Russia? Why do we need to test it in Russia? Much more matured? As in China haven't reach pubrty? LOL. This coming from a program which wasditched! You guys are really funny bunch. There are around 400+ WS-10 flying, so if we only became matured in 2012, means, we would have to build 100 engines a year? Any Kaveri in service?


Sorry my bad, India became a SUPAPOWA back in 2012. Sorry for my ignorance. Just like how India unveiled exascale computers in 2016. Jai Hind! All is happy and flowers are sprouting, now roll over the hill with some bollywood music.

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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Chinese engines tested in Russia? Why do we need to test it in Russia? Much more matured? As in China haven't reach pubrty? LOL. This coming from a program which wasditched! You guys are really funny bunch. There are around 400+ WS-10 flying, so if we only became matured in 2012, means, we would have to build 100 engines a year? Any Kaveri in service?


Kaveri GTX has more life (in present form) than the matured WS-10.
Don't do chest thumping on using a il-76 as testbed as China is didn't have its Indigenous testbed.

India never used unmatured and incomplete projects which may lead to the loss of human lives. Where as it is usual in chinese case.

Cheers!

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## Han Patriot

I bet India only use the best and safest systems on earth.



> On 27 October 2008, it was reported that K-152 _Nerpa_ of the Russian Pacific Fleet had begun her sea trials in the Sea of Japan before handover under a lease agreement to the Indian Navy.[44] On 8 November 2008, while conducting one of these trials, an accidental activation of the halon-based fire-extinguishing system took place in the fore section of the vessel. Within seconds the halon gas had displaced all breathable air from the compartment. As a result, 20 people (17 civilians and 3 seamen)[45][46] were killed by asphyxiation. Dozens of others suffered freon-related injuries and were evacuated to an unknown port in Primorsky Krai.[47] This was the worst accident in the Russian navy since the loss of the submarine K-141 _Kursk_ in 2000. The submarine itself did not sustain any serious damage and there was no release of radiation.[48]



Erm, why don't we have our own testbed? Can you explain? Why did India ditch Kaveri if it was so matured?


X_Killer said:


> Kaveri GTX has more life (in present form) than the matured WS-10.
> Don't do chest thumping on using a il-76 as testbed as China is didn't have its Indigenous testbed.
> 
> India never used unmatured and incomplete projects which may lead to the loss of human lives. Where as it is usual in chinese case.
> 
> Cheers!


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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Erm, why don't we have our own testbed? Can you explain ?


1. India don't have frequent jet engine programs.
2. Government intentions towards Indigenous developments is the main reason for this.
3. Right now, GoI have some discussions to convert a 4 Engine Aircraft ( Aircraft not clarified) and a twin engine jet for this purpose 


Han Patriot said:


> Why did India ditch Kaveri if it was so matured?


Who said that India ditched KAVERI GTX Project.
Right now, it posses some reheat stage hiccups like unusual sounds and vibration, that will be sorted out soon.

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> 1. India don't have frequent jet engine programs.
> 2. Government intentions towards Indigenous developments is the main reason for this.
> 3. Right now, GoI have some discussions to convert a 4 Engine Aircraft ( Aircraft not clarified) and a twin engine jet for this purpose
> 
> Who said that India ditched KAVERI GTX Project.
> Right now, it posses some reheat stage hiccups like unusual sounds and vibration, that will be sorted out soon.


I was saying China already has an engine testbed, they DO NOT need to go to Gromov unlike India. Well, good luck on Kaveri, LCA and Arjun. Until today nobody is taking any Indian program seriously due to sheer incompetence.

Btw, does India have any successful indigenous turbojets in service? So someone above is saying a country with no prior successful jet research experience is more matured. LOL





People here seems to think China had never develop any indigenous aircraft engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_aircraft_engines.

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## 帅的一匹

X_Killer said:


> Kaveri GTX has more life (in present form) than the matured WS-10.
> Don't do chest thumping on using a il-76 as testbed as China is didn't have its Indigenous testbed.
> 
> India never used unmatured and incomplete projects which may lead to the loss of human lives. Where as it is usual in chinese case.
> 
> Cheers!


Your pilotes have to operate flying coffin like Mig21. Lol

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## X_Killer

wanglaokan said:


> Your pilotes have to operate flying coffin like Mig21. Lol


LoL, PLAAF is still flying 728 F-7 ( licence version of Mig-21)
Stop it , when you have a pant with a hole



Han Patriot said:


> I was saying China already has an engine testbed, they DO NOT need to go to Gromov unlike India. Well, good luck on Kaveri, LCA and Arjun. Until today nobody is taking any Indian program seriously due to sheer incompetence.
> 
> Btw, does India have any indigenous turbojets? So someone above is saying a country with no prior jet research experience is more matured. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People here seems to think China had never develop any indigenous aircraft engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_aircraft_engines.


Still waiting for pure chinese project without foreign claim of reverse engineering and copyright infringements

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> LoL, PLAAF is still flying 728 F-7 ( licence version of Mig-21)
> Stop it , when you have a pant with a hole


Compare the crash rate between F-7 and Indian Mig-21s and see whose hole is bigger.



X_Killer said:


> Still waiting for pure chinese project without foreign claim of reverse engineering and copyright infringements


You mean like this?


> In 2002, little information had been publicly released concerning the nature of the _Kaveri_'s technical challenges, but it was known that the _Kaveri_ had a tendency to *"throw"* turbine blades, which required securing *blades* from *SNECMA (as well as digital engine control systems)*.[6]

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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Compare the crash rate between F-7 and Indian Mig-21s and see whose hole is bigger.


LOL, another baseless comment.


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## amardeep mishra

Han Patriot said:


> Chinese engines tested in Russia? Why do we need to test it in Russia? Much more matured? As in China haven't reach pubrty? LOL. This coming from a program which wasditched! You guys are really funny bunch. There are around 400+ WS-10 flying, so if we only became matured in 2012, means, we would have to build 100 engines a year? Any Kaveri in service?
> 
> 
> Sorry my bad, India became a SUPAPOWA back in 2012. Sorry for my ignorance. Just like how India unveiled exascale computers in 2016. Jai Hind! All is happy and flowers are sprouting, now roll over the hill with some bollywood music.


Hi @Han Patriot
Kindly first learn to talk properly. Go and attend a few seminars on gas turbine research and in case you're in doubt do read up the comments of russian engineers posted at Gromov. I know you cant sneak out much info from CPC. What I wanted to say was that back in 2010 or 12(I seem to forget the year) when kaveri and WS-13 went to Gromov,our engine performed much better than Ws-13--and it is a FACT--whether you want to digest it or not is entirely inconsequential.Also Note,I do not know the current status of chinese engine. I suspect they might have improved the engine.



Han Patriot said:


> I was saying China already has an engine testbed, they DO NOT need to go to Gromov unlike India.


Of course they(chinese) have a flying test bed--based on russian IL-76 now.However back in 2010-12 and prior to that chinese were utterly dependent on Gromov institute for high altitude trials just like India. Now dont be an embarrassment and do read these things from a neutral perspective.



Han Patriot said:


> Btw, does India have any successful indigenous turbojets in service? So someone above is saying a country with no prior successful jet research experience is more matured. LOL


This shows how un-educated and ignorant you are really are. india have been license producing jet engines for a very very long time. Do pay a visit to HAL museum in bangalore and you'd know. India also have had various indigenous gas turbine programs. Kaveri is neither first nor last!
In fact first indigenous engine that india designed was manufactured was in 1960s --HJE-2500. I am sure you can google it out--oh wait,isnt it banned in your country?

http://admirableindia.com/karnataka...part-22-hje-2500-indias-first-turbojet-engine



Han Patriot said:


> Just like how India unveiled exascale computers in 2016. Jai Hind!


You are really funny. You spare no chance to "extrapolate" pieces of news information to satisfy your ego. I dont have any problem with that,however kindly do "read" that information many times over to understand what it was trying to establish.
FYI,india has NOT unveiled any computer with speeds you're mentioning above--it is just that india has serious intent of producing one at home.And how do you "gauge" seriousness? Well it is gauged by the intention of govt to shell out dollars! And this time,Indian govt is coming out with some serious dollars to invest in this field.Thats all!

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## Han Patriot

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @Han Patriot
> Kindly first learn to talk properly. Go and attend a few seminars on gas turbine research and in case you're in doubt do read up the comments of russian engineers posted at Gromov. I know you cant sneak out much info from CPC. What I wanted to say was that back in *2010 or 12*(I seem to forget the year) when kaveri and WS-13 went to Gromov,our engine performed much better than Ws-13--and it is a FACT--whether you want to digest it or not is entirely inconsequential.Also Note,I do not know the current status of chinese engine. I suspect they might have improved the engine.










> A picture of the Il-76 engine testbed landing at CFTE is shown here. The aircraft was modified from a former Russian Il-76SKIP/Be-976 missile tracking aircraft (S/N RA-76456). The modification including the removal of the radar system took place in 2004 at the LII Flight Research Institute and the aircraft was handed over to China in* mid-2005*.


So I am supposed to believe an Indian *'FACT'* now? Only the 'competent' Indians would try to develop an engine without first making sure there is an engine test bed. This is just an Il-76 based test bed, we also have H-6 based test bed for older engines. Btw, the testbed was already ready in 2005, extrapolate this genius!



.



amardeep mishra said:


> This shows how un-educated and ignorant you are really are. india have been license producing jet engines for a very very long time. Do pay a visit to HAL museum in bangalore and you'd know. India also have had various indigenous gas turbine programs. Kaveri is neither first nor last!
> In fact first indigenous engine that india designed was manufactured was in 1960s --HJE-2500. I am sure you can google it out--oh wait,isnt it banned in your country?



Yup I fully understand that the definition of licensed production in India means screw driver and sticker tech. Read my comment again, I specifically used the word 'successful', tell me how many indigenous engine was ever used on any aircraft at all. You can make half baked prototypes and declare it successful.






amardeep mishra said:


> You are really funny. You spare no chance to "extrapolate" pieces of news information to satisfy your ego. I dont have any problem with that,however kindly do "read" that information many times over to understand what it was trying to establish.
> FYI,india has NOT unveiled any computer with speeds you're mentioning above--it is just that india has serious intent of producing one at home.And how do you "gauge" seriousness? Well it is gauged by the intention of govt to shell out dollars! And this time,Indian govt is coming out with some serious dollars to invest in this field.Thats all!



LOL, India have always had the intention, however the results remain to be seen.


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## HariPrasad

Han Patriot said:


> Guys,
> 
> Can we just let them dream? At least they can have some hope. Do you know the amount of grape juice flowing out of their nostrils when they saw J-20, the first time? If we didn't show them that, they would have taken their own sweet time.
> 
> Be prepared for 20 years of testing and modifications.


Here we are discussing about fifth generation. Plane. J20 is not a fifth generation plane so do not discuss that here OK.

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## #hydra#

HariPrasad said:


> Here we are discussing about fifth generation. Plane. J20 is not a fifth generation plane so do not discuss that here OK.


How do you know that? ,Its always better to overestimate enemy capabilities than underestimating. That's how uncle sam developed f15 by seeing mig25

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## Kinetic

#hydra# said:


> How do you know that? ,Its always better to overestimate enemy capabilities than underestimating. That's how uncle sam developed f15 by seeing mig25



U r right. But will u accept a Samsung or Vivo?


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## HariPrasad

#hydra# said:


> How do you know that? ,Its always better to overestimate enemy capabilities than underestimating. That's how uncle sam developed f15 by seeing mig25


Because this plane has no component of fifth generation plane


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## #hydra#

HariPrasad said:


> Because this plane has no component of fifth generation plane


On what basis you are telling?


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## HariPrasad

#hydra# said:


> On what basis you are telling?


It is not stealth. It has junk engine. It can fly fast. It has junk weapons. Junk radar and sensors and no sensor fusion and be agility. Tell me something which can match f22.


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## X_Killer

HariPrasad said:


> It is not stealth. It has junk engine. It can fly fast. It has junk weapons. Junk radar and sensors and no sensor fusion and be agility. Tell me something which can match f22.


They mentioned it as 5th Generation fighter (overplayed by China), it means we (India) have to develop more potent and highly advanced 5th generation fighter and than downplay it to force them to shout about its original capabilities.
Just like we already did in the case of Agni-5 ICBM. We mentioned it as a 5000km ranged ICBM but Chinese are shouting that it has the effective range of 8000kms.

Take chill pill and move on....

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## #hydra#

HariPrasad said:


> It is not stealth. It has junk engine. It can fly fast. It has junk weapons. Junk radar and sensors and no sensor fusion and be agility. Tell me something which can match f22.


Who told you all these,AFAIK Chinese didn't reveal much details other than the where about of engine. I don't believe in eye ball stealth analysis too. Also it's a military fighter,not a toy. No military in the world,that too a military like Chinese whose aspiring to beat uncle Sam won't induct shitty things .


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## HariPrasad

If you 


#hydra# said:


> Who told you all these,AFAIK Chinese didn't reveal much details other than the where about of engine. I don't believe in eye ball stealth analysis too. Also it's a military fighter,not a toy. No military in the world,that too a military like Chinese whose aspiring to beat uncle Sam won't induct shitty things .


If you believe something, keep believing it. I do not mind. I said why it is not fifth generation plane.


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## #hydra#

HariPrasad said:


> If you
> 
> If you believe something, keep believing it. I do not mind. I said why it is not fifth generation plane.


You speculate about its capabilities and comes to a conclusion.


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## Shajida Khan

X_Killer said:


> They mentioned it as 5th Generation fighter (overplayed by China), it means we (India) have to develop more potent and highly advanced 5th generation fighter and than downplay it to force them to shout about its original capabilities.
> Just like we already did in the case of Agni-5 ICBM. We mentioned it as a 5000km ranged ICBM but Chinese are shouting that it has the effective range of 8000kms.
> 
> Take chill pill and move on....


You know sometimes back, USA made Russians believe that they were massively ahead of Russians in few critical areas like space and missiles etc. This was called the 'Gap' period. This was well played in Kubric's movie Dr Strangelove Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. Russians ended up making some spectacular achievements in those areas but in the end destroyed their economy.

Do not follow your enemy and let it lead you. Fight it where you choose to fight it.

Look at Pakistan, India is around 6-7 times bigger than them but they are managing to hold India off for most of the parts by acquiring essential and good counters to what India has cheaply. We need to do the same wrt China.


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## bloo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/957926082056929280

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## Water Car Engineer

*





Radar Absorbing Skin
*
Resistive capacitive layers of CJA are developed as electrically thin printed circuit boards and integrated with alternating low loss, low density foam dielectric spacers backed by metallic conducting plane. Size of panel CJA is 280 mm × 280 mm. Fabricated panel CJA is evaluated for radar cross section (RCS) performance in microwave anechoic chamber. Matching results are obtained in simulation and measurements. The reduced thickness, low weight, UWB CJA finds application in RCS reduction of air vehicles/unmanned air vehicle.

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Radar Absorbing Skin
> *
> Resistive capacitive layers of CJA are developed as electrically thin printed circuit boards and integrated with alternating low loss, low density foam dielectric spacers backed by metallic conducting plane. Size of panel CJA is 280 mm × 280 mm. Fabricated panel CJA is evaluated for radar cross section (RCS) performance in microwave anechoic chamber. Matching results are obtained in simulation and measurements. The reduced thickness, low weight, UWB CJA finds application in RCS reduction of air vehicles/unmanned air vehicle.

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## MimophantSlayer

*Expression of interest released by ADA for seeking the participation of industries in the manufacture of AMCA NGTD.
*

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## Hindustani78

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...-add-muscle/story-kfvxMzNtsamshNd7daPGtN.html
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to start the process of inviting Indian military contractors to build fighter jets in the country under the government’s Make in India plan in the next four weeks , a person familiar with the project said.

This multi-billion-dollar project to build 114 jets will be “directly linked” to the development of an indigenous futuristic stealth fighter – the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the person added.

The air force plans to issue a request for information (RFI) before DefExpo-2018 — a military systems exhibition by the defence ministry — opens in Chennai on April 11.

“The document will not specify the number of engines the jets should have, leaving the field open for makers of both single- and twin-engine planes,” said the person who asked not to be named.

An earlier plan involved pursuing two separate projects to build single-engine and twin-engine fighters in India but that distinction has been discarded now.

The RFI is the first step towards finding a new warplane for the air force and Indian global plane manufacturers will respond to it with operational features and technical parameters of their platforms. That will pave the way for the air force to make a case for getting the ministry’s ‘acceptance of necessity’ (AoN) – the government’s stamp of approval to pursue a military programme.

“After the AoN comes, we could either opt for a government-to-government deal or put out a tender. Both options are open at this stage,” said a senior officer tracking the air force’s modernisation on the condition of anonymity.

*The manufacturer that India finally decides to collaborate with will have to commit to transfer of technology not only for the fighter to be built in India but also for the AMCA that is on the drawing board.*

“We have asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to prepare a list of technologies they need help with for the AMCA. There will be clear clause on the transfer of those technologies in the contract,” said the officer quoted above.

Experts say the full-scale engineering development of the AMCA up to the prototype stage will take upwards of a decade and its flight first could take place around 2030.

India had floated a global tender for 126 planes more than a decade ago but it was cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared in April 2015 that India would directly buy 36 jets from HAL.

Six prototypes fighters took part in that contest before the Tejas and the AMCA made it to the last round.

The new competition is also likely to be among Rafale, Eurofighter, MiG-35, F/A-18, F-16 and Gripen in NATO.

“The technology has evolved during the past decade. In their present form,  F/A-18 and Gripen NG would not have been rejected in the older contest,” the officer said.

The air force wants to speed up the project as the count of its fighter squadrons has shrunk to 31 compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war.

The Chinese and Pakistani air forces operate at 60 and 25 fighter squadrons respectively.


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## Garian

Thrust vectoring is a must.


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984680612333342720

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## Trisonics

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0096417792 ---> Here is DRDO developed Ultra Wide Band (ULB) Radar Absorbing Skin Prototypes which will be used for Indian Stealth Aircrafts like AMCA and AURA.

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## MimophantSlayer

Trisonics said:


> https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0096417792 ---> Here is DRDO developed Ultra Wide Band (ULB) Radar Absorbing Skin Prototypes which will be used for Indian Stealth Aircrafts like AMCA and AURA.



Already posted.
#569
Jaumann absorber.


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## HariPrasad

#hydra# said:


> You speculate about its capabilities and comes to a conclusion.



Now Su 30 MKIs able to detect J 20 even without AESA Radar from a long distance. Now tell me whether I was speculating?


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## +1S

Technical indicators are very close to Fc31. Has the project entered the engineering prototype stage?


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## Hindustani78

NEW DELHI, August 19, 2018 21:52 IST
Updated: August 19, 2018 21:52 IST

India’s only fifth generation aircraft programme following the decision not to go ahead with the fifth generation project with Russia.

At Aero India *2016*, DRDO officials had stated that the basic design configuration has been frozen after wind tunnel testing and there are three critical technologies that need to be developed -- stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise.

The aircraft powered by the same engine on the LCA Mk-2 variant which is in the design phase.

A LCA Mk-2 variant engine produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the LCA Mk1 variant engine. 

Apart from the technologies developed from the LCA project, the new fighter programme is important as technologies coming in through that will flow into the AMCA project,” another official source said.

The plan is to build on the capabilities and expertise developed during the development of the light combat aircraft (LCA) and produce a medium fifth generation fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force has given land to the Defence Research and Development Organisation to set up facilities for the project.

“There are two major ways of making a military platform stealthier. One is geometric stealth and other is material stealth. In geometric stealth, the shape of the aircraft is designed at such angles so as to deflect away maximum radar waves thereby minimising its radar cross section. In material stealth, radar-absorbing materials are used in making the aircraft which will absorb the radio waves thus reducing the radar footprint. The AMCA will initially be based on geometric stealth, we can look at material stealth at a later stage,” the source said.

“The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two LCA Mk-2 variant engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that, ” a defence source said.

Development work on the jet is under way.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984680612333342720



The tails don't seem canted enough.


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## MimophantSlayer




----------



## Water Car Engineer

Guessing VEM tech is producing part of the fuselage for AMCA TD.

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project of India has gone deep into the detail design phase now. Along with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), hundreds of scientists spread across at least 20 labs of Defence Research and Development Organisation are now engrossed in critical work to find solutions to a number of next-generation technologies that need to be proven.

With the project definition phase (PDP) getting over in 2017, _Onmanorama_ can confirm that scientists have already walked some distance designing the AMCA, India’s stealth fighter.

ADA, the designer of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, is spearheading the AMCA mission.

The AMCA will be propelled by a US-origin GE F414 engine with a thrust of over 90kN and this will be an interim step by the makers till a higher-thrust engine of 110kN is finalised. The F414 engine, set to power the Tejas Mk-II, will power AMCA as well, till India develops a 110kN engine, possibly in collaboration with a foreign partner.

The current plan is to fly AMCA with the F414 engine for the first six-seven years, in what the designers now term as an ‘interim engine’ for India’s fifth-generation stealth platform. While the design phase has already been sanctioned to commence activities, the final approval for AMCA from the government (Cabinet Committee on Security) is in process.

The plan is to build four prototypes and fly the first one before 2025, which is seven years from now.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is said to be working out the exact numbers for this future fighter, while the AMCA Directorate at ADA is ensuring a robust foundation for this big-ticket desi project.

*Model to test stealth*

The feasibility study for the AMCA began in 2009 with an initial funding of Rs 90 crore. Last year, about Rs 400 crore came in for the detail design phase (DDP), which is expected to be completed in the next three years. Post that, the AMCA will get on to the crucial development phase: Flight testing and eventually certification.

With India finally ejecting out of jointly making the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, there was a stalemate over AMCA for a while and now the flight path seems to have cleared.

“This is for the first time ever in the country we are on a stealth design and the challenges are unique here. However, an advantage is we just have to concentrate on the fifth-generation technologies like stealth since we have already mastered all the fourth-generation technologies through LCA,” an official told.

A full-scale model (1:1) of AMCA is being manufactured by VEM Technologies for stealth measurements.

DRDO is also displaying a scaled model of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft with audio-visual effects at Aero India 2019.

The 1:1 model will be taken to the Orange facility in Hyderabad or to Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur (DLJ), for testing the stealth features. DRDO’s Orange facility was opened in 2015 to test current and futuristic weapon systems under development.

The scientists need to measure stealth features on the modular model being developed by VEM Technologies. Modularity is provided, so that new stealth technologies can be immediately incorporated and validated on the model. Orange can provide radar cross section (RCS) measurements and the pylon system at the facility can lift payloads up to 35 tonnes.

“Earlier, you used to make an aircraft and then check its stealth features. Now, from design stage itself, stealth features are part of the optimisation. It was an afterthought earlier, but in a fifth-generation fighter, stealth gets priority,” the official said.

Scientists are hopeful of getting this 1:1 AMCA model ready for tests by the end of this year. Further optimisation of stealth features is under way. This is being done not only by scientists in DRDO and CSIR, but also many academic institutions including IISc in Bengaluru and various IITs.

“Stealth and aerodynamics don’t go hand in hand, so you have to guarantee some minimum performance and optimise for stealth,” the official said.

AMCA has been designed with multi-disciplinary optimisation (MDO) engineering route with stealth as an optimising parameter. (MDO brings in a number of engineering disciplines while finding solutions to complex problems.)

*Loaded with features*

Detailed R&D on materials, paints and structures is being undertaken by various labs now. Study is also under way on flight control, avionics, aerodynamics, composite structure and general systems like brakes, hydraulics and fuels systems.

“We hope to have the first flight of AMCA before 2025 with all the stealth features being established by then. With reduced infrared (IR), we are working on the super-cruise abilities that give the aircraft capability to fly at supersonic speeds without the afterburner,” says the official.

Passive sensors, internal weapon bay, advanced integrated avionics, next-generation active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, 360-degree enhanced situation awareness, integrated vehicle monitoring system (IVHM), serpentine air intake, infrared search and track (IRST), missile approach warning system (MAWS) and diverterless supersonic intake (DSI) are some of the features being claimed by Indian scientists that will make AMCA a powerful fighting machine.

Added features like suppression of enemy air defence (SEAD) and destruction of enemy air defence (DEAD) will also give more teeth to the beyond-visual range (BVR) characteristics of the AMCA.

“Parallel efforts to camouflage the aircraft to achieve visual and IR stealth will continue in the next few years,” adds the official.

As this _Onmanorama_ Aero India 2019 special report jettisons into the web space, the AMCA back-room boys are initiating the full-scale engineering development (FSED) plans for AMCA.

India’s home-grown fighter programmes are on inspiring flightpath now, with the scientists gaining confidence in converting dreams into reality at a relatively faster pace. The lessons from LCA will probably act as a ready-reckoner.


https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/02/20/aero-india-indigenous-stealth-fighter-engine.html


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## Sunny4pak




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## Water Car Engineer

*DSI was studied for AMCA*


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## Ultima Thule

CyclopS said:


>


Its a final/finished design or temporarily design???, but i have to say this design is quite similar to Yak-141 with stealth capability, am i right @CyclopS


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## RoyalEnfieldBullet500

pakistanipower said:


> Its a final/finished design or temporarily design???, but i have to say this design is quite similar to Yak-141 with stealth capability, am i right @CyclopS
> View attachment 541791



Ankhe kharab hain kya

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## Ultima Thule

RoyalEnfieldBullet500 said:


> Ankhe kharab hain kya


no just my thinking, don't be rude, and plan-form is quite similar, i know there major difference b/w Yak-141 and ACMA (role/missions perspective) one was for carrier ops and other will be multi-role land jet but similarity is there @RoyalEnfieldBullet500

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## Water Car Engineer

pakistanipower said:


> Its a final/finished design or temporarily design???, but i have to say this design is quite similar to Yak-141 with stealth capability, am i right @CyclopS
> View attachment 541791

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## Ultima Thule

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Thanks you sir but i still think your AMCA inspired to the design of Yak-141 with stealth capability, just Chinese developed J-20 (Mig-1.44) with stealth capability @Water Car Engineer


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100862153672712192

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *DSI was studied for AMCA*









Another AMCA model with DSI incorporated.

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## lover

*Is there anything else that you would like to speak about?*

On the technology front, we are very seriously working on AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft). The design efforts have started, product development has begun and we are regularly interacting with the Indian Air Force (IAF) on this.

We are now integrating with the Indian industry in a big way. We would be engaging the industry as the development-cum-production partner from the beginning of the project to ensure seamless transfer of technology and offer systems from first of production model for trials to cut down the development cycle time. Para 72 of DPP 2016 facilitates this. We want to strengthen our manufacturing base by enabling Indian industry through their involvement as partners and not limited to assembly line job.
http://forceindia.net/interview/sec...development-organisation-dr-g-satheesh-reddy/


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Bilal9

minimi said:


> The tails don't seem canted enough.



And they are wayyy too large from the image to claim low observable. Just my opinion.

Could be a trick to throw people off intentionally...


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## Water Car Engineer

*The two AMCA-TDs will also feature diverterless supersonic inlets (DSIs) instead of the intakes featured in mockups displayed till date. Design work on DSI is complete and this has apparently resulted in a significant reduction in the overall radar cross-section (RCS) of the baseline AMCA airframe design. As far as flush air data sensors are concerned, ADA’s work on this has grown out of its contribution to ISRO’s Re-Entry Launch Vehicle TD (RLV-TD) project.* However, while the RLV-TD flies a predictable and pre-determined path, the flight envelope for the AMCA will be far more complex and a significant amount of work is being put in to achieve flush air data sensing system (FADS) hardware to cater to the same. As of now, a centerline fuel tank carried by a prototype from the LCA family has been modified and fitted with AMCA FADS hardware for the purpose of developmental testing. Interestingly, some developments from the AMCA effort are also finding their way back to the MWF project and even HAL’s Tejas Mk1A programme.



http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...rogramme-gathers-steam-with-new-developments/

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## Water Car Engineer

Latest AMCA model with DSI

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## PeacefulWar

Are you sure this is not J-31?

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## Goku

PeacefulWar said:


> Are you sure this is not J-31?


Or F35??? ......cz everyones copying American designs


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## Deino

Not really???


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226880965345148933

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## Deino

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Teacherman,
> 
> It is a *cunning strategy* to keep world powers guessing and confused... and then these powers will be surprised with *RealThing!*
> 
> So much to learn!
> 
> Mangus



Indeed, the Indian way of interpreting Sun Tzu's Art of War, but I just became 50 last week and with that given strategy, I will never see that bird!

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## Foxbat Alok

https://www.defenceview.in/india-5th-gen-fighter-aircraft-may-spread-its-wings-by-2025/





The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), part of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), showed two slightly different scale models of India’s planned multirole fifth-generation fighter at DefExpo 2020 in Lucknow.





The Bangalore-based agency is cooperating with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), whose mission set for the Indian Air Force (IAF) will include air superiority, air defence, precision strike, maritime operations, EW, bombing and reconnaissance.

An ADA representative confirmed to _Shephard_ that the feasibility study and basic design configurations have been completed. This work included extensive wind tunnel testing.

Critical detailed design work is planned for next year, and Indian firm Vem Technologies will reportedly produce a 1:1 model of the AMCA.

Despite features such as serpentine air intakes, the fighter’s design will not be able to achieve the stealth levels of platforms such as the F-22 or F-35. Thus, the ADA said the design will be a ‘trade-off between aerodynamics, stealth and structure for achieving a balanced design’.
read full article here


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## Deino

*Doe we really need a new thread, when there are already two?!

Reported to merge.*

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## jaibi

Could you mention those threads, Deino? I can't seem to find them. Thanks!


Deino said:


> *Doe we really need a new thread, when there are already two?!
> 
> Reported to merge.*


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## Indos

Foxbat Alok said:


> An ADA representative confirmed to _Shephard_ that the feasibility study and basic design configurations have been completed. This work included extensive wind tunnel testing.
> 
> Critical detailed design work is planned for next year, and Indian firm Vem Technologies will reportedly produce a 1:1 model of the AMCA.



If the basic design has already been completed so why detail design will be worked next year or in other word 1 year after that? It should be rightly worked once the basic design is completed.

Or maybe there is still issue on the funding since working on detail design phase means that the program has been given clearance to build prototype and do required fight testing.


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## Nilgiri

Indos said:


> If the basic design has already been completed so why detail design will be worked next year or in other word 1 year after that? It should be rightly worked once the basic design is completed.
> 
> Or maybe there is still issue on the funding since working on detail design phase means that the program has been given clearance to build prototype and do required fight testing.



It just vague terminology bro.

"Configuration" just likely means sizing and performance parameters and mapping out first few sensitivity studies.

So more basic design stuff will be ongoing this year, at some point it will transition to detailed design if the project funding sustains and expands appropriately.

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## 313ghazi

I won't hold my breathe but it's not completely unfeasible. Surely they must have learnt something from the LCA debacle.

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## StormBreaker

Still a long way, and if it goes as planned, there is nothing surprising about first prototype by 2025.
Still then it will need 6-7 years to actually get inducted.

Title says, AMCA will spread wings by 2025, waiting for PAF to Spread AMCA’s legs as well by 2030

Even for our AZM, if funding is kept as top priority, we might see AZM’s first prototype by 2026-7 if it really is our own design from scratch.

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## Deino

jaibi said:


> Could you mention those threads, Deino? I can't seem to find them. Thanks!




Here's the regular one:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/adva...evelopment-updates-discussions.298161/page-40

... and IMO this one could be merged to:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indias-amca-model-displayed-at-lucknow-airport.652935/

Best,
Deino


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## Nilgiri

Deino said:


> Here's the regular one:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/adva...evelopment-updates-discussions.298161/page-40
> 
> ... and IMO this one could be merged to:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indias-amca-model-displayed-at-lucknow-airport.652935/
> 
> Best,
> Deino



Second one should not be merged, that was a model made by school kids put on display in airport. Childish members of course know no better.

1st one looks like good candidate to have one solid thread about AMCA developments.

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## Oracle

LCA 3


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## Wood

It would be a delight if this timeline comes true. But based on India's previous track record with such projects, I'm inclined to believe that this is perhaps too optimistic.



Foxbat Alok said:


> Despite features such as serpentine air intakes, the fighter’s design will not be able to achieve the stealth levels of platforms such as the F-22 or F-35. Thus, the ADA said the design will be a ‘trade-off between aerodynamics, stealth and structure for achieving a balanced design’.



This transparency is welcome. It is good for India to aim at a modest goal to begin with. Future projects can perhaps hope to achieve 'marble size' stealth.


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## Indos

@Water Car Engineer

Do you know official estimated development cost for AMCA program ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Indos said:


> @Water Car Engineer
> 
> Do you know official estimated development cost for AMCA program ?



No idea, it hasnt entered prototyping. It will ask for funds soon for prototyping.

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## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> No idea, it hasnt entered prototyping. It will ask for funds soon for prototyping.



And you indians have already wasted 40 pages worth of bandwidth drooling and chest beating over something that has no completion date? No prototype and heck not even secured funding?? Hahaha


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## KhanBaba2

Aliph Ahmed said:


> And you indians have already wasted 40 pages worth of bandwidth drooling and chest beating over something that has no completion date? No prototype and heck not even secured funding?? Hahaha


If you prefer 80 pages instead you can go to https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/project-azm-stealth-ambition-project.522011/

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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> And you indians have already wasted 40 pages worth of bandwidth drooling and chest beating over something that has no completion date? No prototype and heck not even secured funding?? Hahaha



Who is chest beating? You guys started a thread on some AZM program which doesnt even have ground work infrastructure to validate a 4th gen design, let alone a 5th gen one. AMCA is closing on it's design phase, entering prototyping. I've seen enough speculative talk with AK2, AZM, J10, etc, etc. from your side.


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## Deino

Water Car Engineer said:


> Who is chest beating? You guys started a thread on some AZM program which doesnt even have ground work infrastructure to validate a 4th gen design, let alone a 5th gen one. AMCA is closing on it's design phase, entering prototyping. I've seen enough speculative talk with AK2, AZM, J10, etc, etc. from your side.



Pardon to contradict - even if you might be correct for the moment with the AZM project, but from all I learned during all the yeras (or almost decades) of following the military aviation scene I would corect your pot to the following:

*Who is chest beating? AMCA is far from closing on it's design phase, even further away entering prototyping. Similar to I've seen enough speculative talk with Tejas Mk. 1, Mk 1A, MCA Mk. 2, the AMCA FGFA, AMCA, ORCA, etc. from your side.*

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## Wood

Deino said:


> *Who is chest beating? AMCA is far from closing on it's design phase, even further away entering prototyping. Similar to I've seen enough speculative talk with Tejas Mk. 1, Mk 1A, MCA Mk. 2, the AMCA FGFA, AMCA, ORCA, etc. from your side.*



I'm curious to know why you think that India is far from closing the design phase? Is it based on the general reputation of incompetence in DRDO's track record or something more scientific?


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## Deino

Wood said:


> I'm curious to know why you think that India is far from closing the design phase? Is it based on the general reputation of incompetence in DRDO's track record or something more scientific?



Based on two assumptions: First, indeed the past track record that makes me highly skeptical on any announcement as long as proof is not given and second since years we get always again and again new a slightly revised models on any air- or military related show, which make me assume, that the design is simply not finished yet ... and finally the term "soon" seems to have a different definition in India.

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## CONNAN

Inefficiency of DRDO units/public sector undertakings (PSUs), cumbersome procurement processes, adversarial inter-ministerial relationships, corruption-plagued history, unrealistic technical specifications and lack of accountability. But strangely there are no clarion calls to fix these well-established reasons. Instead of finding solutions mostly knee jerk reactions rather being proactive in a time-bound manner, our indian strategy seems to be setting up committees whose end result is mournful blame-shifting and grandiose recommendations that rarely see light of day, in any meaningful time-frame .

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## Wood

Deino said:


> Based on two assumptions: First, indeed the past track record that makes me highly skeptical on any announcement as long as proof is not given and second since years we get always again and again new a slightly revised models on any air- or military related show, which make me assume, that the design is simply not finished yet ... and finally the term "soon" seems to have a different definition in India.


Recent media release claimed that India is aiming for a low observable aircraft and not a pure stealth platform. This moderation of expectation gives some hope.

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## Deino

Wood said:


> Recent media release claimed that India is aiming for a low observable aircraft and not a pure stealth platform. This moderation of expectation gives some hope.



Thanks ... and honestly, I wish them all luck!

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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> Pardon to contradict - even if you might be correct for the moment with the AZM project, but from all I learned during all the yeras (or almost decades) of following the military aviation scene I would corect your pot to the following:
> 
> *Who is chest beating? AMCA is far from closing on it's design phase, even further away entering prototyping. Similar to I've seen enough speculative talk with Tejas Mk. 1, Mk 1A, MCA Mk. 2, the AMCA FGFA, AMCA, ORCA, etc. from your side.*



It is nearing completion. The final designs 1:1 model is going for RCS testing, afterwards they will look for funds for prototyping. Not to mention they are already seeking vendors for the module, integration work of TDs. 

Yes, Indians do speculative work, but the other members acts like Pakistanis dont do the same. Guess what? It's fine, it's a defence forum.

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## CONNAN

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098821123716698113ADA's target right now is to get the first AMCA tech demonstrator airborne by 2025. The second one will follow in six months. lets see 5 years from now fingers crossed.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Based on two assumptions: First, indeed the past track record that makes me highly skeptical on any announcement as long as proof is not given and second since years we get always again and again new a slightly revised models on any air- or military related show, which make me assume, that the design is simply not finished yet ... and finally the term "soon" seems to have a different definition in India.
> 
> View attachment 609391



You're a respected moderator here and you're making remarks against a country such as these?

Nobody assumes that the AMCA will be out "soon", at least not that seriously follow the program. It will take it's own time and the program will have to be carefully managed. There are many technologies that the AMCA requires where India has not gained much experience from the Tejas program, such as stealth, conformal antennae, IWBs, weapon ejectors, etc. There are other areas where the Tejas program has led to rich experience such as composites, FCS and avionics where it will be a lot more straightforward unless there is scope creep. 

There are studies that have been on-going for several years that result in different configurations being designed, modeled and then wind tunnel tested. Fine-tuning and modifications result from that. They'll be analyzed against ASRs and the IAF and other stakeholders will have to be onboard with the final design. That is the normal course of action for ANY design house. So what's wrong with seeing different designs every year or so? It only indicates that a lot of thought is being put into the design phase before it is frozen and thousands of crores of rupees spent on development. No point rushing into making a prototype and putting it in the air and then not seeing it enter even into a proper development phase 7-8 years later.

Here are just SOME of the AMCA configurations that have been studied in detail so far, since this image dates back several years. Since then several more would've been added to the list.






How many models have Japan showcased for their Future Fighter requirements? I've seen at least 4 different models and they only just recently finalized that it will be done on their own, without being an evolution of a foreign design. And what about Turkey and it's TF-X? They were till recently claiming that it'll be in service by 2025. Does that sound realistic?

From what we know from open sources this is the latest AMCA design that is under study. When it'll be frozen, we'll know if ADA and others release that info. But even by the most optimistic timelines, it won't be in service anytime this decade. There will be NG-TD (Next Gen Tech Demonstrators) built to first prove the design's critical technologies and only then will it move into the full development phase. That is what happened with the Tejas as well, with TD, PV and then LSP prototypes built.

This is the latest design from what we know. Modified intakes with forward swept edges and DSI and modified vertical stabilizers that resemble those of the F-35.














Some of the types of studies that are done with every new version of the AMCA design.














All these images are being posted to show one thing- that this is a clean sheet design, with a lot of work being done behind the scenes before it is finalized. It isn't a modification of some existing fighter that magically materializes out of thin air and emerges as a model ready to go into full development.

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## StormBreaker

Water Car Engineer said:


> Who is chest beating? You guys started a thread on some AZM program which doesnt even have ground work infrastructure to validate a 4th gen design, let alone a 5th gen one. AMCA is closing on it's design phase, entering prototyping. I've seen enough speculative talk with AK2, AZM, J10, etc, etc. from your side.


We don’t need local infrastructure, while that is being built, our designers can use foreign facilities to do the work.

This is the difference between PAC and HAL/ADA.

We prioritize our fighter requirement over infrastructure construction while you delay your fighter projects due to lack of LOCAL infrastructure. Although nothing bad in this but I believe india must rethink its priorities.

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> You're a respected moderator here and you're making remarks against a country such as these?
> 
> Nobody assumes that the AMCA will be out "soon", at least not that seriously follow the program. It will take it's own time and the program will have to be carefully managed. There are many technologies that the AMCA requires where India has not gained much experience from the Tejas program, such as stealth, conformal antennae, IWBs, weapon ejectors, etc. There are other areas where the Tejas program has led to rich experience such as composites, FCS and avionics where it will be a lot more straightforward unless there is scope creep.




Sorry if I offended your feelings, but you are wrong at least by the posts above which repeatedly claim a first flight in 2025! And this is - at least by my definition very "soon" and "too soon" given the long delays of a type, which is not very much of a most modern high-end fighter, namely the Tejas.

Point is that they are refining the Tejas design since decades and now they propose the Mk.2 - in fact a type, the IAF originally aimed for - will also only be ready at around the same time ... so at least by my assumption in mind of the past track-record I would bet nearly everything that neither the date for the Tejas Mk.2 (de facto a new aircraft) nor for the AMCA in 2025 will be met.




> How many models have Japan showcased for their Future Fighter requirements? I've seen at least 4 different models and they only just recently finalized that it will be done on their own, without being an evolution of a foreign design. And what about Turkey and it's TF-X? They were till recently claiming that it'll be in service by 2025. Does that sound realistic?
> ...



Again, you miss one important issue: Not the number of configurations tested nor the important changes are relevant - indeed Japan, Korea, Turkey (IMO a very different story) and others have shown sometimes even more such models - but the fact, that certain circles in India and such forums keep posting expectations, which are impossible to hold, they are sticking to timelines, when even those for the much simpler types (aka Tejas Mk. 1 and 1A) are no longer valid, and still wanted to be taken seriously!?

That's the point.

Otherwise I fully agree with you, that it will follow its own Indian way of development, ... but why then boasting to the public dated that simply cannot be met? It's even worse than the typical Russian chest-bumping claims and the current Turkish day- (or shall i say wet-) dreams!

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## BL33D

Unofficial renderings of AMCA from publicly available/leaked designs.

Credits - @Kuntal__biswas

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Sorry if I offended your feelings, but you are wrong at least by the posts above which repeatedly claim a first flight in 2025! And this is - at least by my definition very "soon" and "too soon" given the long delays of a type, which is not very much of a most modern high-end fighter, namely the Tejas.



About the 2025 first flight- that is the likely date by when a NG-TD (Next Gen - Tech Demonstator) demonstrator will be flown; caveat- if the funding is made available for the demonstrator to be assembled by 2024-25.

ADA had released a tender many months ago to have the forward, mid and aft fuselage sections assembled at Sulur AFS, in Coimbatore. 2 NG-TDs were to be flown and they need to prove the basic 5th gen technologies. 

After that, the production standard prototypes will be assembled and flown. Given the level of technology meant to go into the AMCA, it will not be anytime before 2035 that I would expect the AMCA to enter service. But that is my estimate and ADA hasn't put out any timelines since the project hasn't yet been granted funding to begin full scale development.



> Point is that they are refining the Tejas design since decades and now they propose the Mk.2 - in fact a type, the IAF originally aimed for - will also only be ready at around the same time ... so at least by my assumption in mind of the past track-record I would bet nearly everything that neither the date for the Tejas Mk.2 (de facto a new aircraft) nor for the AMCA in 2025 will be met.



You've got it a bit wrong here, so let me explain.

the MWF (Tejas Mk2) is not the type the IAF originally aimed for in the 1980s. The IAF didn't want a Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 replacement from the LCA program, since both were brand new in the IAF back then. It wanted a MiG-21 class aircraft and set ambitious ASRs for it that far exceeded the MiG-21. A few of the original ASRs were not met and concessions were granted, but that is normal for each and every program. Unless of course, one is deliberately hiding facts about a program, which is very true of certain nations that don't have a free press or transparency. If only fanboys were to talk about the Tejas, you'd only hear good things about it. We only know about all the problems that the F-35 faced because they have the most vibrant and well informed media and a lot of transparency. 

Even in the MRCA 1.0 contest, all the contestants failed to meet some of the ASRs that the IAF set. Does that mean they were all bad? No, some of those could be fixed to meet the ASRs and some couldn't. If required, any of the MRCA contestants could've entered IAF service with the IAF granting concessions. Par for the course. In all of the IAF's history, every single imported jet has failed to meet some or the other stated requirement. the IAF has adjusted accordingly or upgraded it to meet them. Case in point- the DARIN-1 upgrade for the Jaguar, which started the same year it entered service since the original NAVWASS equipment was considered unacceptable!

The Mk1A was proposed by HAL as a bridge between the Mk1 and the then Tejas Mk2 (which had a MTOW of 15.5 tons and F-414 engine). Once IAF bought into the Tejas Mk1A, and indicated that 83 would be ordered, for a total of 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A fighters, that would replace the 126 MiG-21bis that were upgraded to Bison standard, the LCA program would shift over to the larger class Mk2. 

Once the IAF was happy with the changes being brought on the Mk1A, the focus shifted to adding more fuel and payload to the Tejas Mk2 and making it a fighter that could replace the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29. That is the MWF and you are entitled to your view on when you think it would fly or enter service. 



> Again, you miss one important issue: Not the number of configurations tested nor the important changes are relevant - indeed Japan, Korea, Turkey (IMO a very different story) and others have shown sometimes even more such models - but the fact, that certain circles in India and such forums keep posting expectations, which are impossible to hold, they are sticking to timelines, when even those for the much simpler types (aka Tejas Mk. 1 and 1A) are no longer valid, and still wanted to be taken seriously!?
> 
> That's the point.



2025 for the first flight of a NG-TD demonstrator is doable provided the funding is provided to do that. I don't believe it has been done as yet. It will be like the J-31 first flight in 2012, which was clearly nowhere near being production ready. We saw major changes in the proposed FC-31 fighter model later displayed as an export product, which has not yet flown in that config, 8 years after that first flight. Why? Because the J-20 has taken up all the resources as of now. 

NG-TD AMCA demo will fly with F-414-INS6 engines, with a very limited FBW Flight Control Law with limited gains initially and the program will slowly build up pace of testing and envelope expansion. Depending on how that goes, there will be limited series production prototypes built with the interim F-414-INS6. The experience gained with the Tejas FCS means it won't be such a long process, but it will be very involved nevertheless. The final variant of the AMCA with twin 115 kN thrust class engines is a long way off. The engine doesn't yet exist, so all we can say as of now is that the interim F-414-INS6 will power the first few squadrons of AMCA when they enter service, possibly around 2035. 

Many posters are driven by the desire for the IAF to have a 5th gen fighter because China is fielding the J-20 now and the F-35 is entering service in large numbers. And some may underestimate the amount of work that needs to be done to get the AMCA to IOC level. One area where I still have my hopes pinned is the bringing in of private sector players in a big way into the Indian aerospace complex. They allow the freeing up of resources at HAL and other DRDO labs for R&D, while the private suppliers do what they do best- manufacture.

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## MirageBlue

StormBreaker said:


> We don’t need local infrastructure, while that is being built, our designers can use foreign facilities to do the work.
> 
> This is the difference between PAC and HAL/ADA.
> 
> We prioritize our fighter requirement over infrastructure construction while you delay your fighter projects due to lack of LOCAL infrastructure. Although nothing bad in this but I believe india must rethink its priorities.




I'm afraid you've got it the other way around- you cannot design and do R&D for a local fighter if you don't have the infrastructure to do it. India's mistake was to let the HF-24 Marut retire and then not use all the experience it gained in it's design, test and manufacture to build follow on fighters. They have now rectified that situation, so that the Mk1A, MWF, TEDBF, AURA, AMCA and maybe even ORCA will all be designed and built in India.The Tejas experience was difficult and it was delayed, but the fruits of it are that now India has all the necessary experience and infrastructure to design, develop and test nearly all of the elements for a modern fighter.

A military turbofan is where we've fallen short- 80% of the way there with the Kaveri but the remaining 20% to get a fully certified and flightworthy turbofan is the hardest part. Sadly, there isn't enough being invested to get that. Hopefully AMCA will rectify that situation since the IAF needs a 115-120 kN thrust engine and wants it done indigenously.

If Pakistan prioritizes its fighter requirement over infrastructure to design and develop one, pray tell us what is the exact fighter requirement from Project Azm? I've seen some claims of it being a twin engine 5th gen type, some saying it'll be a single engine 5th gen type. Is there even a basic rendering of it? Is there any Air Staff Requirement out there for it?

Do you have the facilities to do even basic supersonic and subsonic wind tunnel testing? The RCS testing? The composite fabs and auto claves to build all the necessary skin panels and primary structures? The 'iron rigs' to test out fuel systems and hydraulic systems? What facilities do you have to design, develop and test the Fly By Wire FCS? What about facilities to design and develop mission computer systems and other avionics? Do you even have a test flying agency that certifies airplanes? If so, what is their setup like and what have they certified so far, since the JF-17 is certified by Chinese military flying agencies?

With zero facilities, none of these basic activities that go into the design of a 4th or 5th gen fighter can be done in Pakistan. So what is Project Azm?

Believe me, this is not meant as an insult, but a wake up call. If you want to straight away jump into the design and development of a 5th gen fighter without having built all the needed infrastructure and facilities to do it for a 3rd or 4th gen fighter, it will not be possible to do it on your own.

So once again, what is Project Azm? FC-31 modified to suit PAF requirements? You'll be riding on China's coat tails again while claiming it to be indigenous?

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## jk007

MirageBlue said:


> They have now rectified that situation, so that the Mk1A, MWF, TEDBF, AURA, AMCA and maybe even ORCA will all be designed and built in India.The Tejas experience was difficult and it was delayed, but the fruits of it are that now India has all the necessary experience and infrastructure to design, develop and test nearly all of the elements for a modern fighter.



a) Is there a good *chance* that MK1A & MWF will be ready in-time? I know this is a difficult question to answer, but is the work going full-stream?

b) Is it going to be retractable probe from MWF? why so, when even Rafale has non-retractable probe? They tried the same for LCA Mk1 as well. My question is - Is it going to be a case of over-promising and under-delivering (my question is not just about retractable probe, but other promised technologies / features)?


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## StormBreaker

MirageBlue said:


> I'm afraid you've got it the other way around- you cannot design and do R&D for a local fighter if you don't have the infrastructure to do it. India's mistake was to let the HF-24 Marut retire and then not use all the experience it gained in it's design, test and manufacture to build follow on fighters. They have now rectified that situation, so that the Mk1A, MWF, TEDBF, AURA, AMCA and maybe even ORCA will all be designed and built in India.The Tejas experience was difficult and it was delayed, but the fruits of it are that now India has all the necessary experience and infrastructure to design, develop and test nearly all of the elements for a modern fighter.
> 
> A military turbofan is where we've fallen short- 80% of the way there with the Kaveri but the remaining 20% to get a fully certified and flightworthy turbofan is the hardest part. Sadly, there isn't enough being invested to get that. Hopefully AMCA will rectify that situation since the IAF needs a 115-120 kN thrust engine and wants it done indigenously.
> 
> If Pakistan prioritizes its fighter requirement over infrastructure to design and develop one, pray tell us what is the exact fighter requirement from Project Azm? I've seen some claims of it being a twin engine 5th gen type, some saying it'll be a single engine 5th gen type. Is there even a basic rendering of it? Is there any Air Staff Requirement out there for it?
> 
> Do you have the facilities to do even basic supersonic and subsonic wind tunnel testing? The RCS testing? The composite fabs and auto claves to build all the necessary skin panels and primary structures? The 'iron rigs' to test out fuel systems and hydraulic systems? What facilities do you have to design, develop and test the Fly By Wire FCS? What about facilities to design and develop mission computer systems and other avionics? Do you even have a test flying agency that certifies airplanes? If so, what is their setup like and what have they certified so far, since the JF-17 is certified by Chinese military flying agencies?
> 
> With zero facilities, none of these basic activities that go into the design of a 4th or 5th gen fighter can be done in Pakistan. So what is Project Azm?
> 
> Believe me, this is not meant as an insult, but a wake up call. If you want to straight away jump into the design and development of a 5th gen fighter without having built all the needed infrastructure and facilities to do it for a 3rd or 4th gen fighter, it will not be possible to do it on your own.
> 
> So once again, what is Project Azm? FC-31 modified to suit PAF requirements? You'll be riding on China's coat tails again while claiming it to be indigenous?


Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.

Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.

Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.

Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.

In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.

I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.

We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.

So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.



MirageBlue said:


> I'm afraid you've got it the other way around- you cannot design and do R&D for a local fighter if you don't have the infrastructure to do it. India's mistake was to let the HF-24 Marut retire and then not use all the experience it gained in it's design, test and manufacture to build follow on fighters. They have now rectified that situation, so that the Mk1A, MWF, TEDBF, AURA, AMCA and maybe even ORCA will all be designed and built in India.The Tejas experience was difficult and it was delayed, but the fruits of it are that now India has all the necessary experience and infrastructure to design, develop and test nearly all of the elements for a modern fighter.
> 
> A military turbofan is where we've fallen short- 80% of the way there with the Kaveri but the remaining 20% to get a fully certified and flightworthy turbofan is the hardest part. Sadly, there isn't enough being invested to get that. Hopefully AMCA will rectify that situation since the IAF needs a 115-120 kN thrust engine and wants it done indigenously.
> 
> If Pakistan prioritizes its fighter requirement over infrastructure to design and develop one, pray tell us what is the exact fighter requirement from Project Azm? I've seen some claims of it being a twin engine 5th gen type, some saying it'll be a single engine 5th gen type. Is there even a basic rendering of it? Is there any Air Staff Requirement out there for it?
> 
> Do you have the facilities to do even basic supersonic and subsonic wind tunnel testing? The RCS testing? The composite fabs and auto claves to build all the necessary skin panels and primary structures? The 'iron rigs' to test out fuel systems and hydraulic systems? What facilities do you have to design, develop and test the Fly By Wire FCS? What about facilities to design and develop mission computer systems and other avionics? Do you even have a test flying agency that certifies airplanes? If so, what is their setup like and what have they certified so far, since the JF-17 is certified by Chinese military flying agencies?
> 
> With zero facilities, none of these basic activities that go into the design of a 4th or 5th gen fighter can be done in Pakistan. So what is Project Azm?
> 
> Believe me, this is not meant as an insult, but a wake up call. If you want to straight away jump into the design and development of a 5th gen fighter without having built all the needed infrastructure and facilities to do it for a 3rd or 4th gen fighter, it will not be possible to do it on your own.
> 
> So once again, what is Project Azm? FC-31 modified to suit PAF requirements? You'll be riding on China's coat tails again while claiming it to be indigenous?


As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.

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## Nilgiri

Some very nice posts in this thread lately by @MirageBlue . Thanks for taking the time...and hope to see your interaction continue here and flesh out more as required.

@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @Hellfire @Krptonite @BL33D @Water Car Engineer @Zapper @Arulmozhi Varman you may all be interested in reading last cpl pages or so.

@Indos you may also find last few pages convo interesting to read, you like to keep tabs on 5th gen project dev etc I remember.

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Deino said:


> Sorry if I offended your feelings, but you are wrong at least by the posts above which repeatedly claim a first flight in 2025! And this is - at least by my definition very "soon" and "too soon" given the long delays of a type, which is not very much of a most modern high-end fighter, namely the Tejas.
> 
> Point is that they are refining the Tejas design since decades and now they propose the Mk.2 - in fact a type, the IAF originally aimed for - will also only be ready at around the same time ... so at least by my assumption in mind of the past track-record I would bet nearly everything that neither the date for the Tejas Mk.2 (de facto a new aircraft) nor for the AMCA in 2025 will be met.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you miss one important issue: Not the number of configurations tested nor the important changes are relevant - indeed Japan, Korea, Turkey (IMO a very different story) and others have shown sometimes even more such models - but the fact, that certain circles in India and such forums keep posting expectations, which are impossible to hold, they are sticking to timelines, when even those for the much simpler types (aka Tejas Mk. 1 and 1A) are no longer valid, and still wanted to be taken seriously!?
> 
> That's the point.
> 
> Otherwise I fully agree with you, that it will follow its own Indian way of development, ... but why then boasting to the public dated that simply cannot be met? It's even worse than the typical Russian chest-bumping claims and the current Turkish day- (or shall i say wet-) dreams!



There are two things. ADA/HAL can keep updating the designs, do some basic wind tunnel testing, develop some off the shelf tech for the fighters in the meantime. But the funding is something not in their hands. Everyone keeps saying Tejas started in 1983. But actual seed funding was given only in 1993. A decade after. And the program had to suffer for our 1998 nuclear bomb test. While those are excuses, it's valid. 

Now while there has been many reports from ADA on Tejas MK2 various designs since 2016 atleast actual govt funding was only provided last year. They cannot be responsible now for having faith and hope in their time line. 
ISRO told they can send a human in 5 years in 2012. Funding was only given Last year. Whatever an govt agency can plan, the govt has the last say in its schedule and finances. As for AMCA, funding has been provided for Detailed Design phase and for creating ground infrastructure for testing. When this phase is over, govt has to then provide for prototype funding phase. If the govt decides to give that funding only by 2025, then it won't be Ada fault.



MirageBlue said:


> About the 2025 first flight- that is the likely date by when a NG-TD (Next Gen - Tech Demonstator) demonstrator will be flown; caveat- if the funding is made available for the demonstrator to be assembled by 2024-25.
> 
> ADA had released a tender many months ago to have the forward, mid and aft fuselage sections assembled at Sulur AFS, in Coimbatore. 2 NG-TDs were to be flown and they need to prove the basic 5th gen technologies.
> 
> After that, the production standard prototypes will be assembled and flown. Given the level of technology meant to go into the AMCA, it will not be anytime before 2035 that I would expect the AMCA to enter service. But that is my estimate and ADA hasn't put out any timelines since the project hasn't yet been granted funding to begin full scale development.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got it a bit wrong here, so let me explain.
> 
> the MWF (Tejas Mk2) is not the type the IAF originally aimed for in the 1980s. The IAF didn't want a Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 replacement from the LCA program, since both were brand new in the IAF back then. It wanted a MiG-21 class aircraft and set ambitious ASRs for it that far exceeded the MiG-21. A few of the original ASRs were not met and concessions were granted, but that is normal for each and every program. Unless of course, one is deliberately hiding facts about a program, which is very true of certain nations that don't have a free press or transparency. If only fanboys were to talk about the Tejas, you'd only hear good things about it. We only know about all the problems that the F-35 faced because they have the most vibrant and well informed media and a lot of transparency.
> 
> Even in the MRCA 1.0 contest, all the contestants failed to meet some of the ASRs that the IAF set. Does that mean they were all bad? No, some of those could be fixed to meet the ASRs and some couldn't. If required, any of the MRCA contestants could've entered IAF service with the IAF granting concessions. Par for the course. In all of the IAF's history, every single imported jet has failed to meet some or the other stated requirement. the IAF has adjusted accordingly or upgraded it to meet them. Case in point- the DARIN-1 upgrade for the Jaguar, which started the same year it entered service since the original NAVWASS equipment was considered unacceptable!
> 
> The Mk1A was proposed by HAL as a bridge between the Mk1 and the then Tejas Mk2 (which had a MTOW of 15.5 tons and F-414 engine). Once IAF bought into the Tejas Mk1A, and indicated that 83 would be ordered, for a total of 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A fighters, that would replace the 126 MiG-21bis that were upgraded to Bison standard, the LCA program would shift over to the larger class Mk2.
> 
> Once the IAF was happy with the changes being brought on the Mk1A, the focus shifted to adding more fuel and payload to the Tejas Mk2 and making it a fighter that could replace the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29. That is the MWF and you are entitled to your view on when you think it would fly or enter service.
> 
> 
> 
> 2025 for the first flight of a NG-TD demonstrator is doable provided the funding is provided to do that. I don't believe it has been done as yet. It will be like the J-31 first flight in 2012, which was clearly nowhere near being production ready. We saw major changes in the proposed FC-31 fighter model later displayed as an export product, which has not yet flown in that config, 8 years after that first flight. Why? Because the J-20 has taken up all the resources as of now.
> 
> NG-TD AMCA demo will fly with F-414-INS6 engines, with a very limited FBW Flight Control Law with limited gains initially and the program will slowly build up pace of testing and envelope expansion. Depending on how that goes, there will be limited series production prototypes built with the interim F-414-INS6. The experience gained with the Tejas FCS means it won't be such a long process, but it will be very involved nevertheless. The final variant of the AMCA with twin 115 kN thrust class engines is a long way off. The engine doesn't yet exist, so all we can say as of now is that the interim F-414-INS6 will power the first few squadrons of AMCA when they enter service, possibly around 2035.
> 
> Many posters are driven by the desire for the IAF to have a 5th gen fighter because China is fielding the J-20 now and the F-35 is entering service in large numbers. And some may underestimate the amount of work that needs to be done to get the AMCA to IOC level. One area where I still have my hopes pinned is the bringing in of private sector players in a big way into the Indian aerospace complex. They allow the freeing up of resources at HAL and other DRDO labs for R&D, while the private suppliers do what they do best- manufacture.



GE is working on a 110KN version of F414 engine funded by US Navy for its F18 program. Expected to be tested by 2022. It plans to provide that engine to AMCA if India wants. And cost will be low since development is borne by US Navy.

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## MirageBlue

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> There are two things. ADA/HAL can keep updating the designs, do some basic wind tunnel testing, develop some off the shelf tech for the fighters in the meantime. But the funding is something not in their hands. Everyone keeps saying Tejas started in 1983. But actual seed funding was given only in 1993. A decade after. And the program had to suffer for our 1998 nuclear bomb test. While those are excuses, it's valid.



ADA was established in 1984. 1 year AFTER the LCA program was sanctioned. ADA had no engineers, nearly all of them were moved from HAL to ADA. There was a period where design houses around the world were vying to be the design consultants for the LCA..MBB, Dassault, BAe, etc..Dassault was selected and we know they have a clear preference for delta wing platforms and their suggestion was to go with one for the LCA too. BAe had a concept known as the P-106 (which I believe ultimately evolved into the Gripen), with cranked delta and canards. 

The PDP phase for LCA ended in 1989 and very preliminary work started in 1990 but froze soon after with India's economic meltdown of that period. It was only in 1993 that work resumed, as you rightly pointed out. There's so many details that can be discussed as to why certain design choices were made, but maybe that can be done in the Tejas thread. For e.g. why was the most complex and state of the art (back in early 1990s) FBW chosen? Dassault had offered the triplex redundant with analog backup channel FBW derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. But DRDO/ADA decided that they wanted the most modern FBW, the quadruplex digital FBW with no analog back up. Turned out to be more difficult, but thanks to it, the Tejas won't need any updates on this for it's entire life and all future programs can use similar technology without the risk of being obsolete in the future decades. 

But the LCA program has been maligned so much by press (many that have an ulterior motive) that nobody looks at the real history behind what happened from 1983 to 1993 or in 1998. The nuke sanctions pushed them back by 2 years, but in hindsight it was perfect for us. It forced ADA and DRDO to do the entire quadruplex digital FBW FCS on their own. Remember, all Indian defence scientists working at Marietta were kicked out of the US and their computers were seized, so they essentially lost all their work and had to start pretty much from scratch. But they managed to do so in 2 years time, which is remarkable. 

Today, the Control Law (CLAW) for the FBW FCS is one of the strongest points of the Tejas program, and we are completely self sufficient in that area. Test Pilots describe it as being the best FCS of any fighter jet they've flown. 



> Now while there has been many reports from ADA on Tejas MK2 various designs since 2016 atleast actual govt funding was only provided last year. They cannot be responsible now for having faith and hope in their time line.
> ISRO told they can send a human in 5 years in 2012. Funding was only given Last year. Whatever an govt agency can plan, the govt has the last say in its schedule and finances. As for AMCA, funding has been provided for Detailed Design phase and for creating ground infrastructure for testing. When this phase is over, govt has to then provide for prototype funding phase. If the govt decides to give that funding only by 2025, then it won't be Ada fault.



I believe some funding for the Tejas Mk2 studies was provided earlier as well..which is one of the reasons they don't want to change the Tejas Mk2 name to MWF officially, since they're using funds provided for the Tejas Mk2 project to develop the MWF.



> GE is working on a 110KN version of F414 engine funded by US Navy for its F18 program. Expected to be tested by 2022. It plans to provide that engine to AMCA if India wants. And cost will be low since development is borne by US Navy.



the IAF wants an indigenous engine for most of its AMCA fighters. the first couple of squadrons will likely fly with the interim F-414-INS6 engine, but later variants will need to fly with a higher thrust engine. If you're referring to the F-414-EPE, it may be available, but a Kaveri K10 turbofan developed through a JV producing 115 kN would be ideal. Time will tell if that happens.

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## Arulmozhi Varman

MirageBlue said:


> ADA was established in 1984. 1 year AFTER the LCA program was sanctioned. ADA had no engineers, nearly all of them were moved from HAL to ADA. There was a period where design houses around the world were vying to be the design consultants for the LCA..MBB, Dassault, BAe, etc..Dassault was selected and we know they have a clear preference for delta wing platforms and their suggestion was to go with one for the LCA too. BAe had a concept known as the P-106 (which I believe ultimately evolved into the Gripen), with cranked delta and canards.
> 
> The PDP phase for LCA ended in 1989 and very preliminary work started in 1990 but froze soon after with India's economic meltdown of that period. It was only in 1993 that work resumed, as you rightly pointed out. There's so many details that can be discussed as to why certain design choices were made, but maybe that can be done in the Tejas thread. For e.g. why was the most complex and state of the art (back in early 1990s) FBW chosen? Dassault had offered the triplex redundant with analog backup channel FBW derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. But DRDO/ADA decided that they wanted the most modern FBW, the quadruplex digital FBW with no analog back up. Turned out to be more difficult, but thanks to it, the Tejas won't need any updates on this for it's entire life and all future programs can use similar technology without the risk of being obsolete in the future decades.
> 
> But the LCA program has been maligned so much by press (many that have an ulterior motive) that nobody looks at the real history behind what happened from 1983 to 1993 or in 1998. The nuke sanctions pushed them back by 2 years, but in hindsight it was perfect for us. It forced ADA and DRDO to do the entire quadruplex digital FBW FCS on their own. Remember, all Indian defence scientists working at Marietta were kicked out of the US and their computers were seized, so they essentially lost all their work and had to start pretty much from scratch. But they managed to do so in 2 years time, which is remarkable.
> 
> Today, the Control Law (CLAW) for the FBW FCS is one of the strongest points of the Tejas program, and we are completely self sufficient in that area. Test Pilots describe it as being the best FCS of any fighter jet they've flown.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe some funding for the Tejas Mk2 studies was provided earlier as well..which is one of the reasons they don't want to change the Tejas Mk2 name to MWF officially, since they're using funds provided for the Tejas Mk2 project to develop the MWF.
> 
> 
> 
> the IAF wants an indigenous engine for most of its AMCA fighters. the first couple of squadrons will likely fly with the interim F-414-INS6 engine, but later variants will need to fly with a higher thrust engine. If you're referring to the F-414-EPE, it may be available, but a Kaveri K10 turbofan developed through a JV producing 115 kN would be ideal. Time will tell if that happens.



Funding studies is different than actual funding for prototype development. Earlier we had LCA, MCA and HCA concepts. MCA evolved to AMCA and Mk2/MWF. 
While MCA had various designs as long as 2008 if I remember correctly, Tejas MK2 was started to be seriously seen after only Parrikar created IOC and pushed into IAF. It was by then ADA proposed to have an Mk2 fighter with with new engine for overcome all shortfalls. Even the first version of mk2 was 1m shorter than the current design. 
But funding for prototype was only provided last year. I think they have also provided funding for a dry version of Kaveri for Ghatak UCAV and also 1:1 scale model for Ghatak testing last year as well. While some funding has been provided for creating ground level infra for AMCA in Coimbatore. 

Yea I was mentioning EPE version with 110KN one. By the time AMCA prototype runs, I think ADA will go in for this version.

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## MirageBlue

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Funding studies is different than actual funding for prototype development. Earlier we had LCA, MCA and HCA concepts. MCA evolved to AMCA and Mk2/MWF.
> While MCA had various designs as long as 2008 if I remember correctly, Tejas MK2 was started to be seriously seen after only Parrikar created IOC and pushed into IAF. It was by then ADA proposed to have an Mk2 fighter with with new engine for overcome all shortfalls. Even the first version of mk2 was 1m shorter than the current design.
> But funding for prototype was only provided last year. I think they have also provided funding for a dry version of Kaveri for Ghatak UCAV and also 1:1 scale model for Ghatak testing last year as well. While some funding has been provided for creating ground level infra for AMCA in Coimbatore.
> 
> Yea I was mentioning EPE version with 110KN one. By the time AMCA prototype runs, I think ADA will go in for this version.



MCA didn't evolve into the MWF. The Tejas Mk2 arose out of the IAF's insistence that the Tejas Mk1 needed an AESA radar, maintainability improvements and a higher thrust engine.

As a result of that, the Tejas Mk2 was to feature a fuselage plug, improved performance (+9G), F-414 engine, internal EW suite, increased payload and increased internal fuel, new DFCC, plus aerodynamic improvements to reduce drag but it didn't have canards. This was in the works at ADA even before Parrikar was the Defence Minister. What Parrikar did was to back the Tejas program fully, and bring IAF and HAL to negotiate on how to quickly address the IAF's needs. 

This was the Tejas Mk2 back then; See the length viz. 13.7 m (0.5 m fuselage plug in the Tejas Mk1 fuselage which is 13.2 m in length)







At that time, the IAF wanted no more Tejas Mk1 fighters after the first 40 and directly wanted to go to the Tejas Mk2. That would have been a huge problem, since it meant that the Tejas assembly line would've been idle for some years till the Tejas Mk2 was in production. But because of his intervention, HAL proposed a new Mk1A variant with AESA radar and maintainability improvements, which the IAF agreed to. 

Since 83 of those Tejas Mk1A fighters were to be bought, it gave ADA and HAL more time to work on a bigger and more ambitious design, which became the MWF. 

Now, the IAF could ask for even greater payload and internal fuel than earlier to target a Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 replacement and so the design grew even longer to 14.3 m (0.6 m more than the earlier Tejas Mk2 design). As the Mk2 grew longer and the CG (Center of gravity) and CL (Center of lift) shifted further aft, canards were required to bring the CL back forward while retaining the same wing design as the Tejas Mk1.

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## MirageBlue

jk007 said:


> a) Is there a good *chance* that MK1A & MWF will be ready in-time? I know this is a difficult question to answer, but is the work going full-stream?
> 
> b) Is it going to be retractable probe from MWF? why so, when even Rafale has non-retractable probe? They tried the same for LCA Mk1 as well. My question is - Is it going to be a case of over-promising and under-delivering (my question is not just about retractable probe, but other promised technologies / features)?



Work is going on in full swing for the Mk1A and the MWF.

MWF *may* have a retractable probe, based on what an ADA engineer told a defence journalist during a briefing. It is an easier option to keep the same probe as the Mk1 and Mk1A, but it is being planned to reduce drag.

One thing is for sure- the nose pitot tube will be removed and relocated just behind the radome. Apparently the pneumatic lines that connect the pitot probe to the LRUs behind hinder radar performance a bit and to improve it, the pitot probe will be moved.






Regarding over-promising and under-delivering; always remember that everything cannot be delivered at the same time. In all Project Management, there are high, medium and low priorities. There are also dependencies on external agencies; for e.g. if I need to install a certain LRU and the DRDO lab or agency that is responsible for it is delayed due to any reason, my schedule will also suffer. Or I may want a certain capability but it will take time to develop and it will be scheduled accordingly. 

So while work is on in full swing, you and other posters need to have sensible expectations. Don't expect impossible timelines and everything you want on DAY 1. An airplane development project is EXTREMELY complex and multi-disciplinary. There are lots of factors influencing the design and the timelines. So stay patient and remember that the IAF is embedded in the Project Team from Day 1. They're guiding it in a way that they didn't with Tejas Mk1. That will make matters a lot more streamlined and miscommunication and lack of stakeholder confidence will be reduced greatly.

MWF will also have an IOC and FOC phase. Gradually, full advertised capability will be delivered. I hope that clears that question of yours.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> Some very nice posts in this thread lately by @MirageBlue . Thanks for taking the time...and hope to see your interaction continue here and flesh out more as required.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @Hellfire @Krptonite @BL33D @Water Car Engineer @Zapper @Arulmozhi Varman you may all be interested in reading last cpl pages or so.
> 
> @Indos you may also find last few pages convo interesting to read, you like to keep tabs on 5th gen project dev etc I remember.



Very interesting, but I was equally interested in the thread on A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy and Doctrine; to be honest, it was @PanzerKiel 's comments and attempts to reduce rushes of blood to the head that I found meaty and hugely instructive.

Since @Signalian helped with his neat layout of the orbat on the other side, I've been doing a lot of thinking, my operation recovery and the subsequent social distancing having given me all that time and leisure. On that other thread, certain common-sense waymarks need to be kept in mind at all times:

No point fighting yesterday's wars;
Even less point fighting with yesterday's weapons;
Worst of all is fighting with yesterday's doctrine - what are achievable war aims, how do we deploy our resources to meet those aims, is today's structure and capability and deployment adequate for achieving those aims, what should we be doing instead, how do we integrate national aims with what is an aberration, war aims, inasmuch as war is an aberration and peaceful co-existence is the norm, what reforms do we need to make at the national level, including in terms of social engineering to converge social goals and the subset that is military goals, how do we factor in geopolitics, including the role of China, the rivalry of China with the US in the South China Sea, the attitude of China towards the Chengdu/Lanzhou military districts, the relationship with Pakistan from the facts-on-the-ground point of view, the role of weapons, their procurement and maintenance, their technology and Indian absorption of the same...
It was disappointing to see the discussion degenerating into a war game.
I agree with you after going through four previous pages of this thread; it is remarkable and this new poster, @MirageBlue, is outstanding; if he and @IAMARVIN had appeared earlier, I might even have stayed active in this forum.

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> it was @PanzerKiel 's comments and attempts to reduce rushes of blood to the head that I found meaty and hugely instructive.



Yup he has quickly earned a strong optimism and curiosity from me....sorely hope he sticks around and gathers more worthies into the discussions he is frequenting now....either for sounding board or for strong contributions.

Must be harnessing some good nostalgia for you in how the forum once was in lot of "quieter" and serious threads.

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## MirageBlue

StormBreaker said:


> Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.
> 
> Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.



You're welcome and I hope this thread stays civil and doesn't deteriorate into racist and anti religious abuse.

I've seen the buildings that were inaugurated for Aviation City. but not any of the actual facilities that are required to do the design and testing work. All of it takes time, but these are the first steps in a long marathon that needs to be run before real capability exists to design and build an indigenous fighter.

Perhaps you have some idea of the scale of investment that is being made and the facilities that will be developed?



StormBreaker said:


> Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.



PAF has its expertise in flying, its tactics and all of the activities that go on for maintenance, arming, SOPs, even overhaul, etc. However, Design knowledge is mostly not a part of ANY Air Force in the world. They know the basics and the theory no question, but they won't be employing the hundreds of engineers with the specialised skills that OEMs employ.

That is why even with decades of Transfer of Technology to HAL, they took so much time with the Tejas. Because watching others do it, and being given exact instructions on how to manufacture and assemble a fighter is one thing, but doing it from scratch is an altogether different exercise. It is levels of magnitude harder. the PAC Kamra experience with the JF-17 is ToT. China has the real knowledge and skills on the design and how to productionize the design.



> Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.



Not sure how the FBW design expertise was gained when there is not a single FBW equipped product that PAC designed. Maybe you could shed more light on how that happened.

I would hope that PAC is smart and doesn't attempt commercial airliners or even regional jets- unless it wants to lose the Govt. of Pakistan a massive pot of money.

It would be impossible without taking the first steps towards a clean sheet design that is much smaller in scale. Regional jets or anything larger require massive investments in infrastructure and manpower and that is a big no-no without a VERY VERY GOOD business case. Just look at how Bombardier fared. They've exited the commercial jetliner business altogether, despite having a good product. It sucked more money out of the company than anyone imagined, needed the Quebec govt. to pour nearly a billion $ and take a huge stake in the program to save it. China, with all the money they have, haven't yet put the C-919 into service and don't have a single non-Chinese Airline customer..even the Chinese customers they have are thanks to CCP directives, not because they're better than the A-320 or B-737. The COMAC ARJ21 is basically an obsolete design and will never see service outside of China. Mitsubishi is not faring particularly well either with its Space Jet with a negative order book worth nearly $1 billion.

On the Indian side, I'm not at all convinced that the Indian RTA-90 will ever actually see light of day. It'll continue to be a NAL project (and NAL is a small lab by comparison to HAL) and unless a private sector consortium takes a huge stake in it and wants to put it into production, we'll only see RTA-70 and RTA-90 electronically and never for real. Because even with civilian air sector and traffic 10 times bigger than Pakistan, the business case is not there for the massive investment that is required for commercial jetliners. Only way possible is if the Govt. of India is hell bent on establishing an Embraer like company in India.



> In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.
> 
> I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.



TBH, the online trolling of the Tejas makes 0% difference in the real world- to those who operate it day and day out and to the decision makers. Those that are associated with the program know what it is capable of and that's what matters most. Because the Govt. of India provides funds to keep it running- they need to see the impact of the program to continue to invest money, whether internet posters do or not is immaterial.

Public perception for the program has also changed over the years as it has entered service and good things are being said about it by IAF people and it has been proving itself in IAF exercises despite it only being at IOC level.

Earlier, every article would start with "Tejas, 30 years in the making"..which was a complete lie. It is like saying the AMCA is 10 years in the making already because concept studies started 10 years ago.

Most people trolling the Tejas program don't know much about the program or how it has changed the Indian aerospace landscape. If the ACM can say that the MRCA will be the last imported fighter in India's history, then he says so because of the tremendous jump that has been made over the last 2 decades, all thanks to the LCA program. And these are not idle boasts- the IAF would NEVER have committed to that kind of thing if they didn't believe they would get world class products from DRDO/ADA/HAL with private suppliers backing them up.



> We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.
> 
> So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.



I am fully aware of the genesis of the JF-17 program and why the decisions were made that led to the design choices that were made since I followed the program on other forums.

However, I do feel that if Pakistan wanted to establish the design capabilities for the next gen of fighters, it needed to take up a substantial bit of the work packages for the JF-17 at the very start. But timeline was first priority and that meant that CAC did almost all of the design and development and PAF and PAC were involved in Program Management, MMI design and assembly related activities. Why didn't Pakistan take on the development of at least some of the avionics for the JF-17?

Again, I want to give you a wake up call- why did CAC need to do the work for JF-17 Block 3? Surely the scope of it meant that integrating Chinese equipment should have been possible by PAC Kamra. I mean the JF-17 Block 3 isn't a new jet- it is upgrading the radar, adding MAWS and some other items right? Does CAC own the IP to the JF-17 and hence PAC Kamra cannot work on it on without CAC taking up the lions share of the work?

An ever bigger opportunity was with the JF-17B! Look at the Brazilians, how they negotiated the Gripen E/F contract. The Swedes didn't want a twin seater, the Brazilians did. So they negotiated for 100s of Embraer engineers to be trained in Sweden, on fighter design even though Embraer has been designing commercial regional jetliners for decades. And then, the first Gripen F was developed in Brazil, with Saab supporting fully. The Brazilians don't even have plans for a 5th gen fighter as of now, but the knowledge to be gained was worth it totally.

Shouldn't Pakistan have demanded that the JF-17B be designed at PAC Kamra or Aviation City and CAC provide all the know-how and know-why (which is the most important part of knowledge transfer) to hundreds of Pakistani engineers so they could put that knowledge to work on the next gen design? Alright, the JF-17B would then have come 4-5 years later, but would that have really mattered compared to the more valuable learning of the design skills? It is because of that, that I feel that the Project Azm will be a derivative of a Chinese design. Because the hard steps have not been put for any program so far by Pakistan.

China is to Pakistan the way the Soviet Union was for India in the 1970s and 1980s. Why put in the really hard work when your ally will supply it to you for cheap and do all the hard work? Thanks to the Soviet Union, we built hundreds of fighters via ToT. But till the Tejas, we didn't know WHY the fighter was designed a particular way or how to do it ourselves. And it took us 20 years+ of sustained effort to get to where people in the Govt. of India and IAF are confident about a 5th gen program and were perfectly fine with rejecting a Russian PAK-FA based FGFA (which was the easy 5th gen solution for India).

Food for thought, right?



> As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.



DRDO (not HAL/ADA) labs have been researching and working on RAM coatings and RAM skins for a while now. They have already built RAM coatings and RAM skins that are being tested. I can't find the images on my laptop right now, will post it when I find them.

ORANGE facility to test RCS of objects

link to article

link






RCS measurement software developed by CSIR-NAL

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## Lord Of Gondor

*Bid To Choose Pvt Partner In India’s 5th Gen Fighter JV Begins*



> Never before has an Indian private sector company been offered the opportunity to be an equal partner in a military aviation project. Military aircraft development and manufacture has so far strictly been the preserve of the state-owned DRDO and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). *Now, in one of the biggest shifts in India’s government-monopolised military industrial complex, that’s about to change.*
> 
> Seen as the most meaningful and substantial involvement of the Indian private sector in a military aviation project, all eyes are now on which privately-held company will be chosen to be an equal joint venture partner for India’s fifth generation fighter effort, the AMCA project. In a major newsbreak Sunday night, Livefist revealed that the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, is to be executed by a public-private joint venture — a first in Indian military industrial history.
> 
> Livefist can now confirm that the selection process is all set to begin to choose the private sector partner in the proposed corporate joint venture. A special purpose vehicle (SPV) is to be created in the interim, followed by a full-fledged joint venture that will administer and execute the development, manufacture and testing of the fifth generation AMCA.
> 
> Livefist has learnt that companies that include Larsen & Toubro, Lakshmi Machine Works (LMW) Advanced Technology Centre, Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) and at least three other private sector defence firms are in the fray. While Livefist understands that L&T is being seen as a frontrunner, given its existing deep involvement and experience in India’s strategic military programs, including the nuclear submarine build program, a final decision on the AMCA JV will only be taken once the selection process is complete.
> 
> Workshare, financials and other terms of reference are to be drawn up this year ahead of decision on the private sector company that will be — for the first time — an equal player in India’s most crucial aviation project. The AMCA JV thrust is separate from the existing supplier and developer base the project already has in the private sector. Companies like VEM Technologies, Dynamatics and others are already involved in the prototyping stage, and will remain tier-level partners for the duration of the project.
> 
> *The AMCA joint venture company will be based in Coimbatore, where an AMCA ‘site’ has been ready for nearly two years now at the IAF’s Sulur base in Tamil Nadu. According top priority to the program, the IAF has already earmarked 20 acres of land for the JV in Sulur for the final assembly and checkout facility. Testing of the jet will take place at the peninsular base which also houses the IAF’s LCA Tejas squadrons.*
> 
> While the original plan was for the AMCA JV to be directly between the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and a chosen private sector company, HAL’s involvement in the design of the jet has meant that the state-owned company will be part of AMCA corporate entity. The fact that the AMCA JV is to come up in Sulur in Tamil Nadu, and not HAL’s home turf of Bengaluru, is indicative of this original impulse. Once things get moving, the AMCA will be, by far, Tamil Nadu’s most significant military industrial project.
> 
> Given how crucial the AMCA project is to future military planning, one of the biggest questions is just who will call the shots in the proposed joint venture. With HAL and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) both involved in the preliminary design studies on the stealth jet, the Indian Air Force has expressed concern over the pace of work. Top IAF sources tell Livefist that the air force is hoping that the private sector company chosen for the JV should call equal shots in the new arrangement, if not taking a full lead.
> 
> Then there’s the question of the proposed jet’s engine.
> 
> The twin-engine AMCA is planned to be powered by an in-development 110 KN turbofan being developed by HAL, DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE — the lead agency) and a foreign engine major (France’s Safran). HAL chairman R. Madhavan told Livefist in an interview last week that the new engine would be _ab initio_ but draw learnings from the erstwhile Kaveri turbofan project. Prototypes of the AMCA, though, will be powered by GE F414 engines. The HAL chairman has said work has speeded up to roll out an AMCA prototype by 2025, with flight test to begin in 2027-28, which confirms earlier timelines set by the DRDO.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...tner-in-indias-5th-gen-fighter-jv-begins.html


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## LittleFish

MirageBlue said:


> You're welcome and I hope this thread stays civil and doesn't deteriorate into racist and anti religious abuse.
> 
> I've seen the buildings that were inaugurated for Aviation City. but not any of the actual facilities that are required to do the design and testing work. All of it takes time, but these are the first steps in a long marathon that needs to be run before real capability exists to design and build an indigenous fighter.
> 
> Perhaps you have some idea of the scale of investment that is being made and the facilities that will be developed?
> 
> 
> 
> PAF has its expertise in flying, its tactics and all of the activities that go on for maintenance, arming, SOPs, even overhaul, etc. However, Design knowledge is mostly not a part of ANY Air Force in the world. They know the basics and the theory no question, but they won't be employing the hundreds of engineers with the specialised skills that OEMs employ.
> 
> That is why even with decades of Transfer of Technology to HAL, they took so much time with the Tejas. Because watching others do it, and being given exact instructions on how to manufacture and assemble a fighter is one thing, but doing it from scratch is an altogether different exercise. It is levels of magnitude harder. the PAC Kamra experience with the JF-17 is ToT. China has the real knowledge and skills on the design and how to productionize the design.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how the FBW design expertise was gained when there is not a single FBW equipped product that PAC designed. Maybe you could shed more light on how that happened.
> 
> I would hope that PAC is smart and doesn't attempt commercial airliners or even regional jets- unless it wants to lose the Govt. of Pakistan a massive pot of money.
> 
> It would be impossible without taking the first steps towards a clean sheet design that is much smaller in scale. Regional jets or anything larger require massive investments in infrastructure and manpower and that is a big no-no without a VERY VERY GOOD business case. Just look at how Bombardier fared. They've exited the commercial jetliner business altogether, despite having a good product. It sucked more money out of the company than anyone imagined, needed the Quebec govt. to pour nearly a billion $ and take a huge stake in the program to save it. China, with all the money they have, haven't yet put the C-919 into service and don't have a single non-Chinese Airline customer..even the Chinese customers they have are thanks to CCP directives, not because they're better than the A-320 or B-737. The COMAC ARJ21 is basically an obsolete design and will never see service outside of China. Mitsubishi is not faring particularly well either with its Space Jet with a negative order book worth nearly $1 billion.
> 
> On the Indian side, I'm not at all convinced that the Indian RTA-90 will ever actually see light of day. It'll continue to be a NAL project (and NAL is a small lab by comparison to HAL) and unless a private sector consortium takes a huge stake in it and wants to put it into production, we'll only see RTA-70 and RTA-90 electronically and never for real. Because even with civilian air sector and traffic 10 times bigger than Pakistan, the business case is not there for the massive investment that is required for commercial jetliners. Only way possible is if the Govt. of India is hell bent on establishing an Embraer like company in India.
> 
> 
> 
> TBH, the online trolling of the Tejas makes 0% difference in the real world- to those who operate it day and day out and to the decision makers. Those that are associated with the program know what it is capable of and that's what matters most. Because the Govt. of India provides funds to keep it running- they need to see the impact of the program to continue to invest money, whether internet posters do or not is immaterial.
> 
> Public perception for the program has also changed over the years as it has entered service and good things are being said about it by IAF people and it has been proving itself in IAF exercises despite it only being at IOC level.
> 
> Earlier, every article would start with "Tejas, 30 years in the making"..which was a complete lie. It is like saying the AMCA is 10 years in the making already because concept studies started 10 years ago.
> 
> Most people trolling the Tejas program don't know much about the program or how it has changed the Indian aerospace landscape. If the ACM can say that the MRCA will be the last imported fighter in India's history, then he says so because of the tremendous jump that has been made over the last 2 decades, all thanks to the LCA program. And these are not idle boasts- the IAF would NEVER have committed to that kind of thing if they didn't believe they would get world class products from DRDO/ADA/HAL with private suppliers backing them up.
> 
> 
> 
> I am fully aware of the genesis of the JF-17 program and why the decisions were made that led to the design choices that were made since I followed the program on other forums.
> 
> However, I do feel that if Pakistan wanted to establish the design capabilities for the next gen of fighters, it needed to take up a substantial bit of the work packages for the JF-17 at the very start. But timeline was first priority and that meant that CAC did almost all of the design and development and PAF and PAC were involved in Program Management, MMI design and assembly related activities. Why didn't Pakistan take on the development of at least some of the avionics for the JF-17?
> 
> Again, I want to give you a wake up call- why did CAC need to do the work for JF-17 Block 3? Surely the scope of it meant that integrating Chinese equipment should have been possible by PAC Kamra. I mean the JF-17 Block 3 isn't a new jet- it is upgrading the radar, adding MAWS and some other items right? Does CAC own the IP to the JF-17 and hence PAC Kamra cannot work on it on without CAC taking up the lions share of the work?
> 
> An ever bigger opportunity was with the JF-17B! Look at the Brazilians, how they negotiated the Gripen E/F contract. The Swedes didn't want a twin seater, the Brazilians did. So they negotiated for 100s of Embraer engineers to be trained in Sweden, on fighter design even though Embraer has been designing commercial regional jetliners for decades. And then, the first Gripen F was developed in Brazil, with Saab supporting fully. The Brazilians don't even have plans for a 5th gen fighter as of now, but the knowledge to be gained was worth it totally.
> 
> Shouldn't Pakistan have demanded that the JF-17B be designed at PAC Kamra or Aviation City and CAC provide all the know-how and know-why (which is the most important part of knowledge transfer) to hundreds of Pakistani engineers so they could put that knowledge to work on the next gen design? Alright, the JF-17B would then have come 4-5 years later, but would that have really mattered compared to the more valuable learning of the design skills? It is because of that, that I feel that the Project Azm will be a derivative of a Chinese design. Because the hard steps have not been put for any program so far by Pakistan.
> 
> China is to Pakistan the way the Soviet Union was for India in the 1970s and 1980s. Why put in the really hard work when your ally will supply it to you for cheap and do all the hard work? Thanks to the Soviet Union, we built hundreds of fighters via ToT. But till the Tejas, we didn't know WHY the fighter was designed a particular way or how to do it ourselves. And it took us 20 years+ of sustained effort to get to where people in the Govt. of India and IAF are confident about a 5th gen program and were perfectly fine with rejecting a Russian PAK-FA based FGFA (which was the easy 5th gen solution for India).
> 
> Food for thought, right?
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO (not HAL/ADA) labs have been researching and working on RAM coatings and RAM skins for a while now. They have already built RAM coatings and RAM skins that are being tested. I can't find the images on my laptop right now, will post it when I find them.
> 
> ORANGE facility to test RCS of objects
> 
> link to article
> 
> link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RCS measurement software developed by CSIR-NAL


I agree with you. 
In Chinese web, LCA is always laughed at for being a "30-year failed project" which is to some extend too arrogant. Know-how and know-why is totally different levels. India can assembly Su-30MKI-class advanced fighters via ToT from Russia, but it is through LCA project that India gained the capability to design a fighter.

China did go through such long path. Q-5, JF-17, J-10 and J-20 are totally our domestic designs, but they do take us very long to achieve success.

We gained the designating capability by copy-and-produce J-6(Mig-19), H-6(Tu-16) and J-7(Mig-21) and J-11(Su-27) series, which took us 30-years to digest Soviet technology. We even have 3 dedicated good universities for aerospace R&D, from which almost all our current engineers in such industries graduates .

Copying is a level higher than ToT assembly --- the highest level know-how, an inevitable phase to know-how, and is still very hard for a developing country. Through copying, we built up our domestic aeroplane industries gradually.

But IMO, India is still a little bit too late to achieve this. 2-gen or early 3-gen fighters are still copyable since they are not so complicated. But for 4/5-gen fighters it is a great challenge --- too many subsystems are involved. I don't think currently any country can build their domestic aeroplane industry following the ToT-copy-design path, its too late and costly, and politicians of "democratic" countries won't invest in these projects which won't benefit at all in near future. 

For 5-gen fighters, the engines, avionics and manufacturing are too complicated, so you can see only giant weapon producers can independently develop 5-gen fighters, i.e US/CN/RUS, and even US had to jointly develop F-35 since it is too costly to develop a 5-gen fighter solo. For TFX / KFX, I'm pessimistic about their future since neither Korea nor Turkey has gone through the path from 2 to 4 gen.

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## Indos

LittleFish said:


> For 5-gen fighters, the engines, avionics and manufacturing are too complicated, so you can see only giant weapon producers can independently develop 5-gen fighters, i.e US/CN/RUS, and even US had to jointly develop F-35 since it is too costly to develop a 5-gen fighter solo. For TFX / KFX, I'm pessimistic about their future since neither Korea nor Turkey has gone through the path from 2 to 4 gen.



Korea has designed two planes before designing KFX/IFX with Indonesia which is KT-1 Wongbi and T50 Golden Eagle (with the assistance of Lockheed Martin). While Indonesia (PT Dirgantara Indonesia) has designed CN 235 with Spain, N 250, N2130, N219. Even though those are not fighters but at least we do have some design experience. Much better than SAC that directly design JF31 despite they dont have any design experience before, just license built Russia fighter.

KFX/IFX itself also get design assistance from Lockheed Martin.


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## LittleFish

Indos said:


> Korea has designed two planes before designing KFX/IFX with Indonesia which is KT-1 Wongbi and T50 Golden Eagle (with the assistance of Lockheed Martin). While Indonesia (PT Dirgantara Indonesia) has designed CN 235 with Spain, N 250, N2130, N219. Even though those are not fighters but at least we do have some design experience. Much better than SAC that directly design JF31 despite they dont have any design experience before, just license built Russia fighter.
> 
> KFX/IFX itself also get design assistance from Lockheed Martin.


Fighters are way more complicated. Experience is very very important in this aspect. The only comparable East Asian country in this field is Japan (Type Zero, F-2, Shinshin, and F-3 in the future, meanwhile C-2 transporter is also a masterpiece, though all Japanese products are irrationally expensive), Korea is no player, the success of TA-50 relied more on LM rather than Korea. 

As for SAC, it is dedicated to produce fighter planes for more than half a century, and they do designed J-8.
J-6, J-7, J-11, J-15, J-16 are all produced by SAC. 

The "license built" only applies for J-11A, which is totally assembly-work. From J-11B on, it is we that control all the production, everything is our own except the AL-31 engine (will be replaced by WS-10 in recent years), thus upgrading and personalization is all at our own control, that's why J-16 come into birth. The only restriction is we can't sell them to foreign customers since we use AL-31 and nothing more, our avionics are even more advanced. 

That's why SAC can design and carry out FC-31 so quickly --- the experience in fighter manufacture, not only some "license built" but whole flow. 60-year experience of R&D is not just paperwork, but real output. 

Again, the first flight of prototype of FC-31 (No.31001) is 8 years before, mean while there is no plane seen for TFX/KFX for years, that is the gap. 

And don't forget SAC and CAC is both under the control of AVIC, they are in the same incorporation controlled by the state, they all serves China rather than stakeholders, so the technology on J-20 can also be applied on SAC's product. FC-31 is not a product only of SAC, but AVIC, you must make clear of the difference.

For KFX, whether it will success or not depends on LM, not Korea and Indonesia, and I even doubt whether there will be a result for KFX project --- it will cost tens of billions of $$. Korea has purchased F-35, and its economy is declining, they may not have the money to develop KFX. What's worse, US produces are a good but greedy cooperator, our Super-7 (the original project code of JF-17) had many economic problems when cooperated with Grumman.

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## Indos

LittleFish said:


> Fighters are way more complicated. Experience is very very important in this aspect. The only comparable East Asian country in this field is Japan (Type Zero, F-2, Shinshin, and F-3 in the future, meanwhile C-2 transporter is also a masterpiece, though all Japanese products are irrationally expensive), Korea is no player, the success of TA-50 relied more on LM rather than Korea.
> 
> As for SAC, it is dedicated to produce fighter planes for more than half a century, and they do designed J-8.
> J-6, J-7, J-11, J-15, J-16 are all produced by SAC.
> 
> The "license built" only applies for J-11A, which is totally assembly-work. From J-11B on, it is we that control all the production, everything is our own except the AL-31 engine (will be replaced by WS-10 in recent years), thus upgrading and personalization is all at our own control, that's why J-16 come into birth. The only restriction is we can't sell them to foreign customers since we use AL-31 and nothing more, our avionics are even more advanced.
> 
> That's why SAC can design and carry out FC-31 so quickly --- the experience in fighter manufacture, not only some "license built" but whole flow. 60-year experience of R&D is not just paperwork, but real output.
> 
> Again, the first flight of prototype of FC-31 (No.31001) is 8 years before, mean while there is no plane seen for TFX/KFX for years, that is the gap.
> 
> And don't forget SAC and CAC is both under the control of AVIC, they are in the same incorporation controlled by the state, they all serves China rather than stakeholders, so the technology on J-20 can also be applied on SAC's product. FC-31 is not a product only of SAC, but AVIC, you must make clear of the difference.
> 
> For KFX, whether it will success or not depends on LM, not Korea and Indonesia, and I even doubt whether there will be a result for KFX project --- it will cost tens of billions of $$. Korea has purchased F-35, and its economy is declining, they may not have the money to develop KFX. What's worse, US produces are a good but greedy cooperator, our Super-7 (the original project code of JF-17) had many economic problems when cooperated with Grumman.



We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.


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## LittleFish

Indos said:


> We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.


Not surprising since we all know FC-31 is not a completed version from the very beginning.
SAC developed FC-31 with its proposal beaten by J-20 proposal in PLAAF internal bidding --- not about technology, but about the usage. 
FC-31 is not a heavy fighter, it uses 2 mid-thrust turbofan engine, but PLAAF did need a heavy one since our enemy is USAF/JPAF, meanwhile our mid-thrust turbofan WS-13 is not as mature as WS-10. 
Therefore FC-31 didn't become J-31 since J means PLAAF has already accepted it.

As for so-called "J-35", there is no convincible information about whether it exists, let alone "5 years to complete", don't believe in foreign news about PLAAF.
The only news is that AVIC officially announced that *"Try best to make NEXT-GENERATION COMBAT AIRCRAFT to take first flight in 2021"*, which is carried out by the AVIC lab 601, and lab 601 belongs to SAC.
We don't know what the *NEXT-GENERATION COMBAT AIRCRAFT *is currently, maybe it is J-35 or something else, but we can assume it is a much upgraded FC-31, maybe it will be a heavy one. 

Never underestimate our developing speed, we always carry out new shit in time. What you should worry about is your IFX.
Indonesia factor may postpone KF-X project
Money talks. Especially under current situation, each country are in lacking of money, both Indonesia and Korea. Delay of KFX/IFX project is obviously expected.


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## Chandrguptaa

Indos said:


> @Water Car Engineer
> 
> Do you know official estimated development cost for AMCA program ?


2 BN USD for two TDs

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## Indos

LittleFish said:


> Never underestimate our developing speed, we always carry out new shit in time. What you should worry about is your IFX.
> Indonesia factor may postpone KF-X project
> Money talks. Especially under current situation, each country are in lacking of money, both Indonesia and Korea. Delay of KFX/IFX project is obviously expected.



So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH. 

*KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement*
by Jon Grevatt

16 July 2020

Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, _Janes_ has learnt.

PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to _Janes_ that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.

_Janes_ understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.

The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.

KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prototype construction as seen in April 2020









Chandrguptaa said:


> 2 BN USD for two TDs



What is TDs ? Prototypes ?


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## Chandrguptaa

Indos said:


> So far KFX/IFX is progressing.
> 
> *KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement*
> by Jon Grevatt
> 
> 
> Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, _Janes_ has learnt.
> 
> PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to _Janes_ that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.
> 
> _Janes_ understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.
> 
> The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.
> 
> KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The prototype construction as seen in April 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is TDs ? Prototypes ?


Yup, Technical Demonstrator or you can say Prototype for AMCA Mk-1.
GE has already started enhancing the GE-414 to Convert it into GE-414 IN which will produce 115-125KN thrust for prototypes.
Rolls-Royce is also working on a Engine of 115-140KN thrust with DRDO under G2G deal..
GTREs is good at cold section & RR is good at Hot core & both of them expect to present the first prototype within 5yrs.

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## Indos

Chandrguptaa said:


> Yup, Technical Demonstrator or you can say Prototype for AMCA Mk-1.
> GE has already started enhancing the GE-414 to Convert it into GE-414 IN which will produce 115-125KN thrust for prototypes.
> Rolls-Royce is also working on a Engine of 115-140KN thrust with DRDO under G2G deal..
> GTREs is good at cold section & RR is good at Hot core & both of them expect to present the first prototype within 5yrs.



As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.


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## Chandrguptaa

Indos said:


> As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.


Then you don't have knowledge, KF-X & AMCA both will use GE F-414, only difference is KF-X will legacy F-414 & AMCA will use enhanced GE F-414.
DRDO chiefs own words.
Prototypes will be based on F414, but for Serial production will most likely use our own Engine, Currently every top engine maker ( GE,Snecma,RR, NPO Saturn & P&W) is fighting with each other bcoz they know, India will need atleast 1500 Engines.
Most like India will produce two engines on their own, one with Snecma-GTRE & 2nd with RR-GTRE.
http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-speak/?id=472&h=Indias-Fifth-Generation-AMCA



StormBreaker said:


> Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.
> 
> Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.
> 
> Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.
> 
> Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.
> 
> In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.
> 
> I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.
> 
> We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.
> 
> So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.
> 
> 
> As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.


Companies don't analyse & Develope stealth coating, engineering institutes do.
For DRDO both IIT-D & M have developed their own RAM coating.

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## LittleFish

Indos said:


> So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH.
> 
> *KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement*
> by Jon Grevatt
> 
> 16 July 2020
> 
> Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, _Janes_ has learnt.
> 
> PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to _Janes_ that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.
> 
> _Janes_ understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.
> 
> The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.
> 
> KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The prototype construction as seen in April 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is TDs ? Prototypes ?



Thanks for your picture, so seems the schedule can be met by Koreans. I expect to see the first prototype of both so called "J-35" and KFX/IFX in 2021, what a nice year it will be.

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## MirageBlue

Indos said:


> As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.



Well, you're wrong about it partially.

The F-414-INS6 will power the prototypes of the AMCA and possibly even the first few production batches. However, the ADA and IAF want a higher thrust (~110 kN in afterburner) engine to power the AMCA to meet super-cruise requirements in dry thrust primarily. There is talk that Rolls Royce and DRDO will be forming a JV to design and develop a new fighter engine in this class.


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## INDIAPOSITIVE



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## polanski

This is why India dumped Su-57 and have their own AMCA. 

Russia’s Su-57 is a gloried fourth-gen fighter, far from a stealth fighters: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/10/13/russias-su-57-far-from-a-stealth-fighters/


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## HostileInsurgent

Indos said:


> So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH.
> 
> *KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement*
> by Jon Grevatt
> 
> 16 July 2020
> 
> Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, _Janes_ has learnt.
> 
> PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to _Janes_ that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.
> 
> _Janes_ understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.
> 
> The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.
> 
> KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The prototype construction as seen in April 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is TDs ? Prototypes ?


Technology Demonstrators yes you can call them Prototypes.


polanski said:


> This is why India dumped Su-57 and have their own AMCA.
> 
> Russia’s Su-57 is a gloried fourth-gen fighter, far from a stealth fighters: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/10/13/russias-su-57-far-from-a-stealth-fighters/


The reason we left FGFA was that Russia made many mistakes in making it, they were making some kind of a stealth aircraft with a flanker’s design. They didn’t make a serpentine intake which increased SU-57’s RCS, their engines were under powered being a powerful engine coz the aircraft itself was a bulky one.

and they weren’t developing many sensors required for FGFA.
many reasons, maybe they have overcome most of these but still can’t make a serpentine intake now.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Indos said:


> We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.



But there is a difference in this project. Unlike the LCA, state entities don't control this project. The lead is now designated as Larsen & Tubro. Indian private firms are generally very efficient.


LittleFish said:


> Thanks for your picture, so seems the schedule can be met by Koreans. I expect to see the first prototype of both so called "J-35" and KFX/IFX in 2021, what a nice year it will be.



Very few of the non-chinese jets will have questions on final RCS performance. While the opinion on J-20 universally is 'we'd like the Chinese to believe their J20 is invisible to our radar'


StormBreaker said:


> Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.
> 
> Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.
> 
> Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.
> 
> Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.
> 
> In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.
> 
> I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.
> 
> We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.
> 
> So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.
> 
> 
> As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.



Don't have any expectations on Project Azm. It will not succeed. The biggest factor for Aviation project is money. You don't have it. We tried to build the LCA with a royal 3 Billion budget for plane+ infra+ engine. It went through a very painful process that extended the project life a lot. I don't think you'll be able to cough up even that- and a good stealth jet will cost about 8 to 10 Billion in R&D.

*RAM Coatings had been developed by DRDO in mid 1990s itself. At that time they were able to absorb 85% of all radar waves . Right now they can absorb 98 to 99% of all Radar waves I believe. porbably more. This tech* is fully mature in India.

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## MirageBlue

The latest iteration (and possibly the final iteration) of the AMCA, as shown by DRDO Chief, Dr Satish Reddy in a webinar..






ADA Director Dr Girish Deodhare gave the following AMCA updates:

Cross-posting from another forum where someone posted this from his interview

- All PDRs are completed, including the aircraft level PDR which happened in Dec 2020.
- So the complete AMCA design is frozen.
- Detailed design activities have begun, including realization of various LRUs.
- Lot of commonality of LRUs with Tejas Mk2 and that helps since they have to only upgrade the LRUs for the AMCA's additional surfaces (AMCA has an all moving tail which LCA doesn't).
- Actuator design has started and is progressing very well
- The IAF has frozen all it's PSQRs (Requirements) after discussion with ADA for over a year and that program has moved very well and ADA and HAL are on track for getting AMCA's first prototype ready for rollout by 2024.
- It has a different kind of a wing and that wing design is also progressing well. It's being done at HAL.
- NAL does the wind tunnel testing. In addition all the structural design activities are done at NAL. They assist ADA in many of the activities including aerodynamics.
- AMCA is a national program and many laboratories including NAL are working on stealth technologies and they've progressed very well.
- Have a very good idea into what is the type of stealth or materials that will be incorporated into AMCA.
- AMCA full scale model is being built, for measuring the stealth characteristics, by a Hyderabad based company. (these stealth measurements will be measured at DRDO's new ORANGE Open Range testing facility)
- That AMCA full-scale model is in a very advanced stage of construction and should come very shortly.
- Also DSI intakes are confirmed and will be incorporated in AMCA.
- DSI technology will feature on all future programs as it helps in stealth and also has other benefits. DSI was one technology to be mastered. Now that's done.
- So Tejas Mk2 will have canards, AMCA will have DSI and probably the TEDBF will have both.

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## siegecrossbow

MirageBlue said:


> The latest iteration (and possibly the final iteration) of the AMCA, as shown by DRDO Chief, Dr Satish Reddy in a webinar..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ADA Director Dr Girish Deodhare gave the following AMCA updates:
> 
> Cross-posting from another forum where someone posted this from his interview
> 
> - All PDRs are completed, including the aircraft level PDR which happened in Dec 2020.
> - So the complete AMCA design is frozen.
> - Detailed design activities have begun, including realization of various LRUs.
> - Lot of commonality of LRUs with Tejas Mk2 and that helps since they have to only upgrade the LRUs for the AMCA's additional surfaces (AMCA has an all moving tail which LCA doesn't).
> - Actuator design has started and is progressing very well
> - The IAF has frozen all it's PSQRs (Requirements) after discussion with ADA for over a year and that program has moved very well and ADA and HAL are on track for getting AMCA's first prototype ready for rollout by 2024.
> - It has a different kind of a wing and that wing design is also progressing well. It's being done at HAL.
> - NAL does the wind tunnel testing. In addition all the structural design activities are done at NAL. They assist ADA in many of the activities including aerodynamics.
> - AMCA is a national program and many laboratories including NAL are working on stealth technologies and they've progressed very well.
> - Have a very good idea into what is the type of stealth or materials that will be incorporated into AMCA.
> - AMCA full scale model is being built, for measuring the stealth characteristics, by a Hyderabad based company. (these stealth measurements will be measured at DRDO's new ORANGE Open Range testing facility)
> - That AMCA full-scale model is in a very advanced stage of construction and should come very shortly.
> - Also DSI intakes are confirmed and will be incorporated in AMCA.
> - DSI technology will feature on all future programs as it helps in stealth and also has other benefits. DSI was one technology to be mastered. Now that's done.
> - So Tejas Mk2 will have canards, AMCA will have DSI and probably the TEDBF will have both.



Never thought that this day would arrive but...






I kid, I kid.


----------



## Deino

Wow ... no-one posted the latest iteration?

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Wow ... no-one posted the latest iteration?
> 
> View attachment 709899
> 
> View attachment 709900
> 
> View attachment 709898



Thanks. You beat me to it. That's the finalized AMCA variant.

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## Indos

Yup, AMCA program has passed Preliminary Design Phase last year and Today it is undergoing detail design phase.

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## no smoking

Ghost Hobbit said:


> But there is a difference in this project. Unlike the LCA, state entities don't control this project. The lead is now designated as Larsen & Tubro. Indian private firms are generally very efficient.



Please make a list of what airplanes these Indian private firms designed and manufactured.



Ghost Hobbit said:


> Very few of the non-chinese jets will have questions on final RCS performance. While the opinion on J-20 universally is 'we'd like the Chinese to believe their J20 is invisible to our radar'



All your radars are either imported or produced based foreign technologies, India's detection capability is well known to everyone except India fanboys.


Don't have any expectations on Project Azm. It will not succeed. The biggest factor for Aviation project is money. You don't have it. We tried to build the LCA with a royal 3 Billion budget for plane+ infra+ engine. It went through a very painful process that extended the project life a lot. I don't think you'll be able to cough up even that- and a good stealth jet will cost about 8 to 10 Billion in R&D.

*


Ghost Hobbit said:



RAM Coatings had been developed by DRDO in mid 1990s itself. At that time they were able to absorb 85% of all radar waves . Right now they can absorb 98 to 99% of all Radar waves I believe. porbably more. This tech

Click to expand...

*


Ghost Hobbit said:


> is fully mature in India.



yes, another example of fantasy created by India fanboy.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> Wow ... no-one posted the latest iteration?
> 
> View attachment 709899
> 
> View attachment 709900
> 
> View attachment 709898


does i seen a DSI on final design on AMCA???


----------



## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> does i seen a DSI on final design on AMCA???




Seems so

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## TheDebSahab

I'm not getting what's happening. You're Indian? Yet you're constantly dissing India?


no smoking said:


> Please make a list of what airplanes these Indian private firms designed and manufactured.
> 
> 
> 
> All your radars are either imported or produced based foreign technologies, India's detection capability is well known to everyone except India fanboys.
> 
> 
> Don't have any expectations on Project Azm. It will not succeed. The biggest factor for Aviation project is money. You don't have it. We tried to build the LCA with a royal 3 Billion budget for plane+ infra+ engine. It went through a very painful process that extended the project life a lot. I don't think you'll be able to cough up even that- and a good stealth jet will cost about 8 to 10 Billion in R&D.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, another example of fantasy created by India fanboy.


----------



## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Seems so



Yes, DSI for AMCA and TEDBF as well.


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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> Yes, DSI for AMCA and TEDBF as well.




By the way, any news from the preparations for the Aero India 2021? ... only two days left!


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## Farhan Bohra

no smoking said:


> Please make a list of what airplanes these Indian private firms designed and manufactured.
> 
> 
> 
> All your radars are either imported or produced based foreign technologies, India's detection capability is well known to everyone except India fanboys.
> 
> 
> Don't have any expectations on Project Azm. It will not succeed. The biggest factor for Aviation project is money. You don't have it. We tried to build the LCA with a royal 3 Billion budget for plane+ infra+ engine. It went through a very painful process that extended the project life a lot. I don't think you'll be able to cough up even that- and a good stealth jet will cost about 8 to 10 Billion in R&D.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, another example of fantasy created by India fanboy.


project azm? We? How Chinese building LCA? And project Azm is not an Indian project, we don't try to act like we are Arabs or turk. The project name is AMCA.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> By the way, any news from the preparations for the Aero India 2021? ... only two days left!



Yes they've started setting up the stalls, so initial sets of pics have already started coming out. Not yet seen an AMCA model, but this is the Tejas Mk2 model that is being displayed

Pitot probe is gone
New mounting strip for the canards below the canopy sill
Not yet clear if it's a fixed probe or not
New boundary layer spillway duct that spills turbulent boundary layer air onto the wing from near the intakes. That is one area that needs to be clarified at AI-21.







Another surprise was this - the model of the HAL Loyal Wingman

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## rEd cHiLLi

MirageBlue said:


> Yes they've started setting up the stalls, so initial sets of pics have already started coming out. Not yet seen an AMCA model, but this is the Tejas Mk2 model that is being displayed
> 
> Pitot probe is gone
> New mounting strip for the canards below the canopy sill
> Not yet clear if it's a fixed probe or not
> New boundary layer spillway duct that spills turbulent boundary layer air onto the wing from near the intakes. That is one area that needs to be clarified at AI-21.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another surprise was this - the model of the HAL Loyal Wingman


I think HAL wingman achieves today's feat for only of our government's continuous effort in indigenising aerospace ecosystem.I can not still believe this that India prepares this giant in just 1.5 years.
What a surprise 😎😎😎


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## Indos



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## Mrc

What will this loyal wingman be loyal to?? Tejas??


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## MirageBlue

rEd cHiLLi said:


> I think HAL wingman achieves today's feat for only of our government's continuous effort in indigenising aerospace ecosystem.I can not still believe this that India prepares this giant in just 1.5 years.
> What a surprise 😎😎😎



This is only a mockup..but from what I've heard, work is on in full swing on the Loyal Wingman as part of the Combat Air Teaming System (CATS) program..

New air launched drone swarms and new ALCM similar to the SCALP was also displayed.

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## Indos

MirageBlue said:


> This is only a mockup..but from what I've heard, work is on in full swing on the Loyal Wingman as part of the Combat Air Teaming System (CATS) program..
> 
> New air launched drone swarms and new ALCM similar to the SCALP was also displayed.



Man, your MALE UCAV program is even not yet finished yet, I think you guys should do program in a step by step basis.......


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## rEd cHiLLi

MirageBlue said:


> This is only a mockup..but from what I've heard, work is on in full swing on the Loyal Wingman as part of the Combat Air Teaming System (CATS) program..
> 
> New air launched drone swarms and new ALCM similar to the SCALP was also displayed.


yeah it is CATS-HUNTER which is similar to scalp and and CATS-ALFA S which is swarm drone launcher🤩👌


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## Farhan Bohra

Indos said:


> Man, your MALE UCAV program is even not yet finished yet, I think you guys should do program in a step by step basis.......


Which MALE UCAV? I don't think we are building any MALE UCAV. Tapas is an ISR UAV program under ADE, and as it is under ADE, the delays are expected.

Another one is SWiFT which is under ADE, over that I have high hopes. ADE learnt lot of things from Tapas. And Ghatak is under ADA. ADA manpower is marvelous, ADA for SWiFT program outsourced it to ADE.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355882206535663624
And CATS is by HAL+private partnership, the NS manpower is just lovely.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102836192251305984


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## Indos

Farhan Bohra said:


> Which MALE UCAV? I don't think we are building any MALE UCAV. Tapas is an ISR UAV program under ADE, and as it is under ADE, the delays are expected.
> 
> Another one is SWiFT which is under ADE, over that I have high hopes. ADE learnt lot of things from Tapas. And Ghatak is under ADA. ADA manpower is marvelous, ADA for SWiFT program outsourced it to ADE.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355882206535663624
> And CATS is by HAL+private partnership, the NS manpower is just lovely.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102836192251305984



Yup, not yet UCAV but still MALE drone survailence and this drone development hasnt been completed.


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## Farhan Bohra

Indos said:


> Yup, not yet UCAV but still MALE drone survailence and this drone development hasnt been completed.
> 
> View attachment 712339


not yet? There is no program or demand to make it UCAV. There is no requirement in IAF or IA for MALE UCAV.

For the strategic delivery platform, the project is Ghatak. And for IAF it is CATS.


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## MirageBlue

Indos said:


> Yup, not yet UCAV but still MALE drone survailence and this drone development hasnt been completed.
> 
> View attachment 712339



Rustom-II or Tapas is an ADE project. Different lab. There's a HALE UAV that is in the pipeline too. 

HAL is doing the Combat Air Teaming System with private players. Completely independent of ADE. There'll be several such projects going on. Private players are also stepping in big time for UAV design and development in India.

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## MirageBlue

Now a good look at the HAL Warrior loyal wingman

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## MirageBlue

The AMCA model has a new paint job since yesterday..not sure I like the digital scheme though..

Anyway, this is the FROZEN AMCA configuration, that is now in Detailed Design stage.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Deino said:


> Seems so



the intakes are ready.


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## Anik101

Basic flight simulator for AMCA.

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## MirageBlue

Another image of the AMCA cockpit simulator with the Large Area Display and low profile HUD.

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## MirageBlue

AMCA IWB design and CFD simulation screenshots

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## The Maverick

guys,any.idea,on it's radar cross section relative to f35 or su57 or j20 .

is,Amca partial or full stealth 

another question what electronic warfare suite will it house I hope spectra level.which is amazing for Rafale


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## Anik101

AMCA metal cutting has started using ADA's internal funds. Full-scale funding by the government to start this year.

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## DrasticMeasure

Anik101 said:


> AMCA metal cutting has started using ADA's internal funds. Full-scale funding by the government to start this year.


And how exactly do you know ??


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## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> AMCA metal cutting has started using ADA's internal funds. Full-scale funding by the government to start this year.



So much BS on the forum these days


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## Mrityunjay Rai

I think metal cutting of MWF(Tejas Mark2) has been commenced not of AMCA.


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## Yasser76

Mrityunjay Rai said:


> I think metal cutting of MWF(Tejas Mark2) has been commenced not of AMCA.



You have not even cut metal on MK1A Tejas, yet talking of MK2 and AMCA?

Sit back down.

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## Mrityunjay Rai

Yasser76 said:


> You have not even cut metal on MK1A Tejas, yet talking of MK2 and AMCA?
> 
> Sit back down.


When you know nothing , it's best not to comment and heartburn can not change situation.

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## CIA Mole

Yasser76 said:


> You have not even cut metal on MK1A Tejas, yet talking of MK2 and AMCA?
> 
> Sit back down.



i don't think most of us here will be alive by the time India puts an indigenous 5th gen into service.

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## no smoking

The Maverick said:


> guys,any.idea,on it's radar cross section relative to f35 or su57 or j20 .
> 
> is,Amca partial or full stealth



From the paper, it should be relative to J-31, but who knows what it will look like when the prototype comes out. Making a model stealth is not hard at all, but produce a real stealth jet is another story.



The Maverick said:


> another question what electronic warfare suite will it house I hope spectra level.which is amazing for Rafale



Only if India allows French men to do the most of work.


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## Raj-Hindustani

CIA Mole said:


> i don't think most of us here will be alive by the time India puts an indigenous 5th gen into service.



There is a big different, man.

HAL Tejas helped us to build aero industry in India. And now, time for actual benefits and advantage.

I will give example of *HAL Dhruv*
1st flight - 1992, Entered in service - 2002. Now in service - 300+

Variants - HAL Rudra - 60+
HAL Light Combat Helicopter - In production (160 + ordered)
HAL Light Utility Helicopter - Under development (will be more then 300+)
HAL Medium Lift Helicopter - Under development (will be more then 300+)

------------------------------------
Doing the nut bolt job as we did with Su 30 MKi and you are doing with Jf17, will not give experience to develop any aircraft. Yes, you will get the experience by manufacturing but not enough to design and develop any aircraft.
--------

Within the 10 years, surely we will gonna to see new fighter planes coming from India. Every country has started from scratch including China. We are on the right path and progressing very well now.

Pakistan yet to start from scratch and if they will start now then still will take at least 10-15 years

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## VkdIndian

Raj-Hindustani said:


> if they will start now then still will take at least 10-15 years


The big word here is IF. IF and IF they start? Which I don’t see happening. I guess they would continue to rely on China for all the work with JOINT word as a gift from the big brother.

At this point most of the cry babies are quoting long development cycle of LCA as the basis of delays or failure of all future endeavours of Indian Aviation Industry. At this point there is no point countering them. Just bookmark those caustic ones for a reply when things are visible clearly.

It is also possible that HAL might screw it up. If that happens then yup, cry babies will have a field day.

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## CIA Mole

Raj-Hindustani said:


> There is a big different, man.
> 
> HAL Tejas helped us to build aero industry in India. And now, time for actual benefits and advantage.
> 
> I will give example of *HAL Dhruv*
> 1st flight - 1992, Entered in service - 2002. Now in service - 300+
> 
> Variants - HAL Rudra - 60+
> HAL Light Combat Helicopter - In production (160 + ordered)
> HAL Light Utility Helicopter - Under development (will be more then 300+)
> HAL Medium Lift Helicopter - Under development (will be more then 300+)
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Doing the nut bolt job as we did with Su 30 MKi and you are doing with Jf17, will not give experience to develop any aircraft. Yes, you will get the experience by manufacturing but not enough to design and develop any aircraft.
> --------
> 
> Within the 10 years, surely we will gonna to see new fighter planes coming from India. Every country has started from scratch including China. We are on the right path and progressing very well now.
> 
> Pakistan yet to start from scratch and if they will start now then still will take at least 10-15 years





VkdIndian said:


> The big word here is IF. IF and IF they start? Which I don’t see happening. I guess they would continue to rely on China for all the work with JOINT word as a gift from the big brother.
> 
> At this point most of the cry babies are quoting long development cycle of LCA as the basis of delays or failure of all future endeavours of Indian Aviation Industry. At this point there is no point countering them. Just bookmark those caustic ones for a reply when things are visible clearly.
> 
> It is also possible that HAL might screw it up. If that happens then yup, cry babies will have the field day.




By value, what % of Tejas is Indian?


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## VkdIndian

CIA Mole said:


> By value, what % of Tejas is Indian?


No idea.


----------



## Anik101

CIA Mole said:


> By value, what % of Tejas is Indian?


70% by volume and 60% by value as of now. Indian content will increase with Indian AESA radar and EW system in mk1A and mk2.

Uttam AESA radar






Pod based Dual colour missile approach warning reciever and High band jammer by DRDO






Engine will remain the only major component to be imported. We have already entered into a JV with Rolls Royce for jet engine development but this will take another 10 years to materialize.

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## Raj-Hindustani

CIA Mole said:


> By value, what % of Tejas is Indian?



It is more then fine.

Engine, Radar and missiles. These are most important components of any aircraft. Even Chinese are not mature enough when comes to engine. India also processing well:

1. Uttam radar
2. Astra missile block1. next - block 2 and block 3

Only major challenge is "Engine", hopefully they will come with solution.

As I said that it takes years and you need to start from somewhere! India has started a long ago and now processing very well. Pakistan has to start from scratch and again if you will start then it will take at least 10-15 years to develop and manufacture any aircraft. Now depends on you, if you are happy to manufacture and assembling OEM products then you surely can and continue. It will be cost effective but overall it will end by doing nut-bold job in the future.

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## Yasser76

Mrityunjay Rai said:


> When you know nothing , it's best not to comment and heartburn can not change situation.



Maybe save everyone time and effort by just not bull**tting in the first place, than crying when you get exposed?


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Maybe save everyone time and effort by just not bull**tting in the first place, than crying when you get exposed?




Here Yasser JUST FOR YOU SIR








The Maverick said:


> Here Yasser JUST FOR YOU SIR





AMCA is our TOP priority Project ..........

LCA MARK 2 will fly 2022-2023 ............. You pakistanis will have about 30 Block 3 THUNDERS at best by then 
I suspect entry as FOC in 2028-2029 which is when the 83 mark1a will have been delivered. YES we have paid and opened a 3rd LCA productionn line so production is being ramped up.

The AMCA is big baby i suspect first flight by 2028-2030 .. Entry 2035 earliest

You also see the Kaveri engine so we fully intend to add this into our product portflio and France will be assisting on final development of this

ENJOY YASSER its from Aero india feb 2021 AND the ladies are senior DRDO staff so know more than me and you before you start your usual line of fake & lies it aint happening . 

IT IS HAPPENING so better get used to it buddy

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## -=virus=-

mistakes happen


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## DrasticMeasure

South Korea's Kai KFx will be flying in a year. Where is India's AMCA lololol ???? Paper Plane. 10 years to design a freaking Plane. Come onnnn

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## Deino

-=virus=- said:


> View attachment 715090
> 
> 
> View attachment 715091
> 
> 
> View attachment 715092
> 
> 
> View attachment 715093
> 
> 
> View attachment 715094
> 
> 
> taken from this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Anik101 @DrasticMeasure @Deino




*You know, this is NOT the AMCA, but the South Korean KFX?? *
Or why do you post these images here?

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## -=virus=-

Deino said:


> *You know, this is NOT the AMCA, but the South Korean KFX?? *
> Or why do you post these images here?


Oops, well that is a terribly embarrassing mistake on my part then, I just skimmed through the video and thought it worth sharing. 

damn

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## Yasser76

Deino said:


> *You know, this is NOT the AMCA, but the South Korean KFX?? *
> Or why do you post these images here?



Because that is how desperate they are


The Maverick said:


> Here Yasser JUST FOR YOU SIR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMCA is our TOP priority Project ..........
> 
> LCA MARK 2 will fly 2022-2023 ............. You pakistanis will have about 30 Block 3 THUNDERS at best by then
> I suspect entry as FOC in 2028-2029 which is when the 83 mark1a will have been delivered. YES we have paid and opened a 3rd LCA productionn line so production is being ramped up.
> 
> The AMCA is big baby i suspect first flight by 2028-2030 .. Entry 2035 earliest
> 
> You also see the Kaveri engine so we fully intend to add this into our product portflio and France will be assisting on final development of this
> 
> ENJOY YASSER its from Aero india feb 2021 AND the ladies are senior DRDO staff so know more than me and you before you start your usual line of fake & lies it aint happening .
> 
> IT IS HAPPENING so better get used to it buddy



To clarify

MK1A = Steel not cut
MK2 = Steel not cut
AMCA = Steel not cut


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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> Because that is how desperate they are
> 
> 
> To clarify
> 
> MK1A = Steel not cut
> MK2 = Steel not cut
> AMCA = Steel not cut



So?

MK2 = Steel not cut - Will be in Feb 2021 and 1st fly in 2022. (for you - they will not change the schedule)

MK1A = Steel not cut - Why? it is just a up-gradation of existing HAL Tejas Mk1. Agreement is just signed and 1st squadron will be completed by 2024-25. It means, there around 16-20 aircrafts will be flying.

AMCA = Steel not cut - Designed phased has completed, possible metal cutting in 2022.


----------



## Dark1

Slow and steady wins the race.
Its not a sprint its a marathon. 
What i like about the tejas program is that for the first time we have a plane with inbuilt safety. After 5000 flights , not a single mishap. Except for the french mirage 2000 , this reliability was never present in the planes we procured from Russia.

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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> So?
> 
> MK2 = Steel not cut - Will be in Feb 2021 and 1st fly in 2022. (for you - they will not change the schedule)
> 
> MK1A = Steel not cut - Why? it is just a up-gradation of existing HAL Tejas Mk1. Agreement is just signed and 1st squadron will be completed by 2024-25. It means, there around 16-20 aircrafts will be flying.
> 
> AMCA = Steel not cut - Designed phased has completed, possible metal cutting in 2022.



I do not understand, you are basically agreeing with me here. Everything you state is "will be"


Dark1 said:


> Slow and steady wins the race.
> Its not a sprint its a marathon.
> What i like about the tejas program is that for the first time we have a plane with inbuilt safety. After 5000 flights , not a single mishap. Except for the french mirage 2000 , this reliability was never present in the planes we procured from Russia.




You need to compare flight hours, from what I have read these have been reduced and the fleet is still small. Once Tejas has flown a large number of hours then you can start comparing properly. Right now the active fleet is still very small


----------



## TheDebSahab

Perhaps you don't know the basic ideology of Pakistan?
I'll keep it simple with one piece of poetry by our National Poet.

Un Ki Jamiat Ka Hai Mulk-o-Nasab Par Inhasar
Quwwat-e-Mazhab Se Mustahkam Hai Jamiat Teri

Learn a thing or two before passing derogatory comments on a goddamn DEFENCE forum. 


Farhan Bohra said:


> project azm? We? How Chinese building LCA? And project Azm is not an Indian project, we don't try to act like we are Arabs or turk. The project name is AMCA.


----------



## TheDebSahab

Oh and Azm is literally the Urdu word for Determination, you room temperature IQ shill.


Farhan Bohra said:


> project azm? We? How Chinese building LCA? And project Azm is not an Indian project, we don't try to act like we are Arabs or turk. The project name is AMCA.


----------



## Farhan Bohra

TheDebSahab said:


> Oh and Azm is literally the Urdu word for Determination, you room temperature IQ shill.








Azm - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.

you don't even know the etymology of your own language. Don't embarrass yourself


----------



## Farhan Bohra

TheDebSahab said:


> Perhaps you don't know the basic ideology of Pakistan?
> I'll keep it simple with one piece of poetry by our National Poet.
> 
> Un Ki Jamiat Ka Hai Mulk-o-Nasab Par Inhasar
> Quwwat-e-Mazhab Se Mustahkam Hai Jamiat Teri
> 
> Learn a thing or two before passing derogatory comments on a goddamn DEFENCE forum.


I definitely know the ideology of Pak. I dont need to learn from you.


----------



## TheDebSahab

SURPRISE SURPRISE!

Urdu is a mixture of Arabic, Turkish, Persian and Hindi!

*Don't embarass yourself*


Farhan Bohra said:


> Azm - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> you don't even know the etymology of your own language. Don't embarrass yourself

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## TheDebSahab

You most certainly do not. And stop being such a douchebag.

Careful bruv. Your insecurity is showing.

The most hilarious thing is that this guy is being a grade-A Shithead on a DEFENCE FORUM of all places.

Go back to Twitter, keyboard warrior.


Farhan Bohra said:


> I definitely know the ideology of Pak. I dont need to learn from you.


----------



## TheDebSahab

Lmao PAC rolls out 25 Jets a year. And that's before the production rampup of 2020. Now it produces approximately 30 or more jets a year.

By 2023, that's 90 Jets or more.

And I CERTAINLY will bet money that MKII doesn't fly before 2025.


The Maverick said:


> Here Yasser JUST FOR YOU SIR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMCA is our TOP priority Project ..........
> 
> LCA MARK 2 will fly 2022-2023 ............. You pakistanis will have about 30 Block 3 THUNDERS at best by then
> I suspect entry as FOC in 2028-2029 which is when the 83 mark1a will have been delivered. YES we have paid and opened a 3rd LCA productionn line so production is being ramped up.
> 
> The AMCA is big baby i suspect first flight by 2028-2030 .. Entry 2035 earliest
> 
> You also see the Kaveri engine so we fully intend to add this into our product portflio and France will be assisting on final development of this
> 
> ENJOY YASSER its from Aero india feb 2021 AND the ladies are senior DRDO staff so know more than me and you before you start your usual line of fake & lies it aint happening .
> 
> IT IS HAPPENING so better get used to it buddy

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## TheDebSahab

Farhan Bohra said:


> Azm - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> you don't even know the etymology of your own language. Don't embarrass yourself


Don't embarass yourself, sunshine.


----------



## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> I do not understand, you are basically agreeing with me here. Everything you state is "will be"
> 
> 
> 
> You need to compare flight hours, from what I have read these have been reduced and the fleet is still small. Once Tejas has flown a large number of hours then you can start comparing properly. Right now the active fleet is still very small



Same you people said for agreement for HAL tejas Mk1a. And, we said that it will be signed during Aero India 2021.

We don't have leverage unlike you that someone will develop a aircraft for you then you will manufacture. 

Our Aero industry is being mature now after Ships manufacturing (NAVY) and Helicopter manufacturing(HAL Druv, LCH,LUH, HAL Rudra, and ALH). 

Now, this decade will dedicate to for fighter aircrafts developing and manufacturing.

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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Same you people said for agreement for HAL tejas Mk1a. And, we said that it will be signed during Aero India 2021.
> 
> We don't have leverage unlike you that someone will develop a aircraft for you then you will manufacture.
> 
> Our Aero industry is being mature now after Ships manufacturing (NAVY) and Helicopter manufacturing(HAL Druv, LCH,LUH, HAL Rudra, and ALH).
> 
> Now, this decade will dedicate to for fighter aircrafts developing and manufacturing.



Pakistan should apologise to India it has the massive support of the world's second strongest country in order to help develop it's aviation industry?


----------



## The Maverick

DrasticMeasure said:


> South Korea's Kai KFx will be flying in a year. Where is India's AMCA lololol ???? Paper Plane. 10 years to design a freaking Plane. Come onnnn





Yasser76 said:


> Pakistan should apologise to India it has the massive support of the world's second strongest country in order to help develop it's aviation industry?




they have developed nothing for you.
you assemble your thunder from kits supplied by China,for which you pay China money or goods,or other means. the money leaves,your shores,into chinease chengdu pockets.

yes your handed them.your specs and requirements,multi role bvr cheap and easty to maintain stand off weapons futures upgradable so they designed the fc1 which you call jf17 thunder.
I know you overhaul it and have maintenance workshops. 
but it is not your fighters project 
it's like our su30mki assembly plants,or jaguar assembly plants.

what we have now is the full package eco system engineers designers scientists wind tunnels and compete design and build capability which has given us
tejas
Amca 
Astra and rudra stand off weapons 
aesa radars 
cats wingman 
drones
dhruv and light attack choppers 
Imrh 13 tonne medium helo

multi billion dollar investments and thousands of jobs 
took us 30 years but we got there

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## Dark1

The Maverick said:


> they have developed nothing for you.
> you assemble your thunder from kits supplied by China,for which you pay China money or goods,or other means. the money leaves,your shores,into chinease chengdu pockets.
> 
> yes your handed them.your specs and requirements,multi role bvr cheap and easty to maintain stand off weapons futures upgradable so they designed the fc1 which you call jf17 thunder.
> I know you overhaul it and have maintenance workshops.
> but it is not your fighters project
> it's like our su30mki assembly plants,or jaguar assembly plants.
> 
> what we have now is the full package eco system engineers designers scientists wind tunnels and compete design and build capability which has given us
> tejas
> Amca
> Astra and rudra stand off weapons
> aesa radars
> cats wingman
> drones
> dhruv and light attack choppers
> Imrh 13 tonne medium helo
> 
> multi billion dollar investments and thousands of jobs
> took us 30 years but we got there


Very well put. Fully agree.

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> they have developed nothing for you.
> you assemble your thunder from kits supplied by China,for which you pay China money or goods,or other means. the money leaves,your shores,into chinease chengdu pockets.
> 
> yes your handed them.your specs and requirements,multi role bvr cheap and easty to maintain stand off weapons futures upgradable so they designed the fc1 which you call jf17 thunder.
> I know you overhaul it and have maintenance workshops.
> but it is not your fighters project
> it's like our su30mki assembly plants,or jaguar assembly plants.
> 
> what we have now is the full package eco system engineers designers scientists wind tunnels and compete design and build capability which has given us
> tejas
> Amca
> Astra and rudra stand off weapons
> aesa radars
> cats wingman
> drones
> dhruv and light attack choppers
> Imrh 13 tonne medium helo
> 
> multi billion dollar investments and thousands of jobs
> took us 30 years but we got there



tejas - Not in frontline service fully (US engines and Israeli radar)
Amca - Drawing board
Astra and rudra stand off weapons - Not in front line service
aesa radars - Not in front line service
cats wingman - Drawing board
drones - Drawing board
dhruv and light attack choppers - In service (European design and engines)
Imrh 13 tonne medium helo - Drawing board

Taken you 30 years to get...er.....not that far.


JF-17 - Produced in Pakistan - 8 sqaudrons
RAAD - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
Al Khalid - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
Shapar and Burraq UAV - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
Zarb Missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
Babrbu cruise missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> tejas - Not in frontline service fully (US engines and Israeli radar)
> Amca - Drawing board
> Astra and rudra stand off weapons - Not in front line service
> aesa radars - Not in front line service
> cats wingman - Drawing board
> drones - Drawing board
> dhruv and light attack choppers - In service (European design and engines)
> Imrh 13 tonne medium helo - Drawing board
> 
> Taken you 30 years to get...er.....not that far.
> 
> 
> JF-17 - Produced in Pakistan - 8 sqaudrons
> RAAD - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
> Al Khalid - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
> Shapar and Burraq UAV - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Zarb Missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Babrbu cruise missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service



omg 

a few missles,that even a tiny relative economically backwoods country like north Korea, can build 

come back with 
nuke subs in service 
8000 tonne guided missle,destroyers,
6000 tonne guided missle frigates 
dedicated,spy satalites
swarm drones,
helicopters in their hundreds 
most of all clear transparent defense,budget with clear breakdown of operational cost 
wages,pensions cost 
capex,annual new weapons allocation 
clear plan with varied options and supplies and partners

you not even fraction where we,are and never will be. your paying the price for being economically weak

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> omg
> 
> a few missles,that even a tiny relative economically backwoods country like north Korea, can build
> 
> come back with
> nuke subs in service
> 8000 tonne guided missle,destroyers,
> 6000 tonne guided missle frigates
> dedicated,spy satalites
> swarm drones,
> helicopters in their hundreds
> most of all clear transparent defense,budget with clear breakdown of operational cost
> wages,pensions cost
> capex,annual new weapons allocation
> clear plan with varied options and supplies and partners
> 
> you not even fraction where we,are and never will be. your paying the price for being economically weak



When half of the above are in service, when your armed forces are not using Chetak helicopters, Bren guns from WW2 than lets chat

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> When half of the above are in service, when your armed forces are not using Chetak helicopters, Bren guns from WW2 than lets chat



you were caught out by your bren gun jibe earlier you now a broken record 
we have over 250 mi17 and 200 plus dhruv

I think you guys have a bout 20


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> you were caught out by your bren gun jibe earlier you now a broken record
> we have over 250 mi17 and 200 plus dhruv
> 
> I think you guys have a bout 20



India still uses Bren guns, and Sterling WW2 guns. Nothing to be caught out about. According to you India has 240 Arjun tanks, so we can all safely assume your opinions no longer hold water


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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> tejas - Not in frontline service fully (US engines and Israeli radar)
> Amca - Drawing board
> Astra and rudra stand off weapons - Not in front line service
> aesa radars - Not in front line service
> cats wingman - Drawing board
> drones - Drawing board
> dhruv and light attack choppers - In service (European design and engines)
> Imrh 13 tonne medium helo - Drawing board
> 
> Taken you 30 years to get...er.....not that far.
> 
> 
> *JF-17 - Produced in Pakistan - 8 sqaudrons
> RAAD - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
> Al Khalid - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
> Shapar and Burraq UAV - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Zarb Missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Babrbu cruise missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service*



What Pakistan is doing nut bolt job with Jf 17 and Al khalid, that is doing Indian from 50 years.
Al khalid - change the name and called indigenous product -what a great example. actually, it is not more then nut bolt job ---even India is doing from many years, latest is T 90.

India Aero industry is way ahead to PAC. Pakistan has do design and develop any aircraft. if they will start now then also it will take more then 15 years..

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> India still uses Bren guns, and Sterling WW2 guns. Nothing to be caught out about. According to you India has 240 Arjun tanks, so we can all safely assume your
> 
> 
> Raj-Hindustani said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Pakistan is doing nut bolt job with Jf 17 and Al khalid, that is doing Indian from 50 years.
> Al khalid - change the name and own the product -what a great example. actually, it is not more then nut bolt job ---even India is doing from many years, latest is T 90.
> 
> India Aero industry is way ahead to PAC. Pakistan has do design and develop any aircraft. if they will start now then also it will take more then 15 years..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they have zero money for researching
Click to expand...


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## IblinI

I think the fanboy has learned a new word in his school, "eco system".

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## The Maverick

IblinI said:


> I think the fanboy has learned a new word in his school, "eco system".




Here just for you ENJOY


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## IblinI

The Maverick said:


> Here just for you ENJOY

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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> What Pakistan is doing nut bolt job with Jf 17 and Al khalid, that is doing Indian from 50 years.
> Al khalid - change the name and called indigenous product -what a great example. actually, it is not more then nut bolt job ---even India is doing from many years, latest is T 90.
> 
> India Aero industry is way ahead to PAC. Pakistan has do design and develop any aircraft. if they will start now then also it will take more then 15 years..



Call it what you want, the Pakistani method with Chinese help is doing what it was always designed to do, put reasonable quality low cost equipment into the hands of the end user. That is all that is required. No need to reinvent the wheel, especially if you are a very close ally of the world's next super power.

India needs to do the same.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> Call it what you want, the Pakistani method with Chinese help is doing what it was always designed to do, put reasonable quality low cost equipment into the hands of the end user. That is all that is required. No need to reinvent the wheel, especially if you are a very close ally of the world's next super power.
> 
> India needs to do the same.



Nope -At least learn from Chinese. They started from scratch or copy paste then after experience, developed and manufactured new aircrafts. Read about their aero industry and their development,

India has also done the some but our Aero industry is maturing now and also experience is very important.

Manufacturing is totally different after TOT comparing to in-house research and development (R&D).

This way you will be ending by manufacturing only OEM products even after many years.

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## Anik101

DrasticMeasure said:


> South Korea's Kai KFx will be flying in a year. Where is India's AMCA lololol ???? Paper Plane. 10 years to design a freaking Plane. Come onnnn


KAI KFX was started in 1999. AMCA was started in 2009-10


Raj-Hindustani said:


> So?
> 
> MK2 = Steel not cut - Will be in Feb 2021 and 1st fly in 2022. (for you - they will not change the schedule)
> 
> MK1A = Steel not cut - Why? it is just a up-gradation of existing HAL Tejas Mk1. Agreement is just signed and 1st squadron will be completed by 2024-25. It means, there around 16-20 aircrafts will be flying.
> 
> AMCA = Steel not cut - Designed phased has completed, possible metal cutting in 2022.


Metal cutting for both AMCA and Mk2 has started. Tenders for cockpit systems for AMCA were out last year.

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## Anik101

Yasser76 said:


> JF-17 - Produced in Pakistan - 8 sqaudrons
> RAAD - Produced in Pakistan - In front line service
> Shapar and Burraq UAV - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Zarb Missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service
> Babrbu cruise missile - Produced in Pakistan in frontline service


You made these systems without proper wind tunnel and testing facilities. Hats off to your design teams.
You made electronic systems for these missiles without a semiconductor Fab plant.. Hats off to your engineers....


Yasser76 said:


> tejas - Not in frontline service fully (US engines and Israeli radar)
> dhruv and light attack choppers - In service (European design and engines)


What do you make in JF17 and Al-Khalid.....Engine?? Radar?? optics?? Electronics?? Fire control computer?? Flight control computer??Actuators?? System on chips?? transmission system?? Navigation system?? Electronic warfare systems?? I bet you import tyres and valves for JF17 as there are only a handful of countries who can make aerospace-grade tyres and valves.
BTW Drhuv's engine was jointly developed by HAL and safran and will be replaced by a more powerful Indian engine HTSE1200.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357565828598759424Also German MBB has hired as a consultant and not as a design partner. Dhruv has some features of MBB designs for this reason. Dhruv was designed in India by HAL engineers.


Yasser76 said:


> Astra and rudra stand off weapons - Not in front line service
> aesa radars - Not in front line service


Astra is already in production.
IHS-Janes-
*BDL begins initial build of Astra Mk1 BVRAAM*
https://web.archive.org/web/2017090.../bdl-begins-initial-build-of-astra-mk1-bvraam
DRDO's GaA based AESA radars are already in frontline service.
Netra AEW&C with DRDO's LSTAR radar and electronic warfare systems





3 are in service and 6 more are on order.
Ground based AESA:
ADTCR:




LLTR:




Arudhra:

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## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> You made these systems without proper wind tunnel and testing facilities. Hats off to your design teams.
> You made electronic systems for these missiles without a semiconductor Fab plant.. Hats off to your engineers....
> 
> What do you make in JF17 and Al-Khalid.....Engine?? Radar?? optics?? Electronics?? Fire control computer?? Flight control computer??Actuators?? System on chips?? transmission system?? Navigation system?? Electronic warfare systems?? I bet you import tyres and valves for JF17 as there are only a handful of countries who can make aerospace-grade tyres and valves.
> BTW Drhuv's engine was jointly developed by HAL and safran and will be replaced by a more powerful Indian engine HTSE1200.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357565828598759424Also German MBB has hired as a consultant and not as a design partner. Dhruv has some features of MBB designs for this reason. Dhruv was designed in India by HAL engineers.
> 
> Astra is already in production.
> IHS-Janes-
> *BDL begins initial build of Astra Mk1 BVRAAM*
> https://web.archive.org/web/2017090.../bdl-begins-initial-build-of-astra-mk1-bvraam
> DRDO's GaA based AESA radars are already in frontline service.
> Netra AEW&C with DRDO's LSTAR radar and electronic warfare systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 are in service and 6 more are on order.
> Ground based AESA:
> ADTCR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LLTR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arudhra:



Yes, we got assistance from China. You build many models and drawings without giving much equipment to your soldiers and pilots, hats off to your drawing teams.

Real winners are not Indian scientists, but French, Russian, American and Israeli as you still continously import

I said Astra was not in front line service, it is not. In production still does not magically make it "in frontline".Dhruv is based on EC635, any idiot can see that from a glance.


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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> Call it what you want, the Pakistani method with Chinese help is doing what it was always designed to do, put reasonable quality low cost equipment into the hands of the end user. That is all that is required. No need to reinvent the wheel, especially if you are a very close ally of the world's next super power.
> 
> India needs to do the same.



Like I said earlier, India doesn't need a DADDY. Lol

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Like I said earlier, India doesn't need a DADDY. Lol



The moment US/West turns it's support off you can kiss your asses goodbye, please do not kid yourself


----------



## Anik101

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, we got assistance from China. You build many models and drawings without giving much equipment to your soldiers and pilots, hats off to your drawing teams.


What assistance??? LOL....Everything was developed by china or was integrated off the shelf from other OEMs....You have a minimal contribution in the development of any equipment you call indigeneous..Every complex subsystem, LRUs is imported.


Yasser76 said:


> I said Astra was not in front line service, it is not. In production still does not magically make it "in frontline".


I thought that for an Air force there is no frontline. Astra mk1 is already flying with Su30MKI. Will be tested from Tejas and Mig29UPG this year itself.

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## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> What assistance??? LOL....Everything was developed by china or was integrated off the shelf from other OEMs....You have a minimal contribution in the development of any equipment you call indigeneous..Every complex subsystem, LRUs is imported.
> 
> I thought that for an Air force there is no frontline. Astra mk1 is already flying with Su30MKI. Will be tested from Tejas and Mig29UPG this year itself.




Flying as a test on an SU-30 as opposed to being in widespread service are two different things, if you knew anything about the military you would know this, but I guess we just continue battling your ignorance and deceit on this forum as usual...

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## Mrc

Indian made cruise missile has been in flight tests for 20 years. None of them successfull

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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> The moment US/West turns it's support off you can kiss your asses goodbye, please do not kid yourself



Lol..whatever makes you happy dude..keep praying for the support to be "turned off"..Meanwhile, Pakistan becomes more and more of a Chinese vassal state..lol


Anik101 said:


> What assistance??? LOL....Everything was developed by china or was integrated off the shelf from other OEMs....You have a minimal contribution in the development of any equipment you call indigeneous..Every complex subsystem, LRUs is imported.



Assistance..Lol..they are so deluded it's amazing..the Chinese have built EVERY SINGLE PART of the JF-17 and still these guys call it a JV..they just provided the funding and did project management, the rest of it is all Chinese all the way. 

Heck, they cannot even name ONE SINGLE PART on the JF-17 that is designed and developed in Pakistan, even for the JF-17 Block 3..after having assembled over 70-80 JF-17s at PAC Kamra, they still cannot develop a single part on their own for the next block. That tells you everything you need to know.

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## ARMalik

It is always good to see too many ignorant indians on this forum. It just provides reassurance that these indians will continue with their favorite centuries old tradition of getting ripped and enslaved by every other nation on this planet. Fantastic !

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## MirageBlue

ARMalik said:


> It is always good to see too many ignorant indians on this forum. It just provides reassurance that these indians will continue with their favorite centuries old tradition of getting ripped and enslaved by every other nation on this planet. Fantastic !



Meanwhile Pakistan's economy prospers and it progresses on all indicators..lol

ps: Even Bangladesh is going to look down on Pakistan in a few years from now..lol

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## serenity

Combining Astra missile with Su-30 is impressive. Done so quickly as well. Does anyone know if Russians provided source codes for weapons control for MKI? China took many years and a few maths geniuses to break the codes because the Russians wouldn't allow integration of PL-12 missiles with Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2. Actually took many years to do without codes.

I wonder if this can be done with new Meteor missiles and India's own fighters which are not from France. Or Astra developed with integration from beginning with approval from Russia?


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## ARMalik

MirageBlue said:


> Meanwhile Pakistan's economy prospers and it progresses on all indicators..lol
> 
> ps: Even Bangladesh is going to look down on Pakistan in a few years from now..lol



Doesn't matter because the centuries old tradition will continue. Enjoy.


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## Anik101

serenity said:


> Combining Astra missile with Su-30 is impressive. Done so quickly as well. Does anyone know if Russians provided source codes for weapons control for MKI? China took many years and a few maths geniuses to break the codes because the Russians wouldn't allow integration of PL-12 missiles with Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2. Actually took many years to do without codes.
> 
> I wonder if this can be done with new Meteor missiles and India's own fighters which are not from France. Or Astra developed with integration from beginning with approval from Russia?


Su30mki uses indian open architecture mission control computer as well as radar computer so no problem in integration of new weapons.

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## Anik101

Mrc said:


> Indian made cruise missile has been in flight tests for 20 years. None of them successfull


Don't exaggerate. Dvelopment was started in 2010 and most of the tests have been successful. Last year's failed test was of ITCM which is different from nirbhay.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Meanwhile Pakistan's economy prospers and it progresses on all indicators..lol
> 
> ps: Even Bangladesh is going to look down on Pakistan in a few years from now..lol




India 2020 GDP Growth = 10.29%

Pakistan 2020 GDP Growth = 0.4%

"All indicators"!?


MirageBlue said:


> Lol..whatever makes you happy dude..keep praying for the support to be "turned off"..Meanwhile, Pakistan becomes more and more of a Chinese vassal state..lol
> 
> 
> Assistance..Lol..they are so deluded it's amazing..the Chinese have built EVERY SINGLE PART of the JF-17 and still these guys call it a JV..they just provided the funding and did project management, the rest of it is all Chinese all the way.
> 
> Heck, they cannot even name ONE SINGLE PART on the JF-17 that is designed and developed in Pakistan, even for the JF-17 Block 3..after having assembled over 70-80 JF-17s at PAC Kamra, they still cannot develop a single part on their own for the next block. That tells you everything you need to know.




Literally every single "made in India" product cannot fly without western support. EVERY SINGLE ONE.


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## Indos

Anik101 said:


> Su30mki uses indian open architecture mission control computer as well as radar computer so no problem in integration of new weapons.
> View attachment 715640



What is the name of the company who produces this avionics ?


----------



## RPK

Indos said:


> What is the name of the company who produces this avionics ?


BEL




__





Bharat Electronics - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







https://bel-india.in/

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## HostileInsurgent

Yasser76 said:


> India 2020 GDP Growth = 10.29%
> 
> Pakistan 2020 GDP Growth = 0.4%
> 
> "All indicators"!?
> 
> 
> 
> Literally every single "made in India" product cannot fly without western support. EVERY SINGLE ONE.


Literally every single "made in Pakistan" product cannot fly without Chinese support. EVERY SINGLE.

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## Mrc

Anik101 said:


> Don't exaggerate. Dvelopment was started in 2010 and most of the tests have been successful. Last year's failed test was of ITCM which is different from nirbhay.



And it was abandoned in 2016 after repeated failures than resurrected another tejas in making won't b functional for next 50 plus years


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## Yasser76

HostileInsurgent said:


> Literally every single "made in Pakistan" product cannot fly without Chinese support. EVERY SINGLE.



Totally agree, we do not hide behind "indigenous" happy to highlight "Joint".


----------



## HostileInsurgent

Yasser76 said:


> Totally agree, we do not hide behind "indigenous" happy to highlight "Joint".


Joint production still has 0 pakistani components.

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Totally agree, we do not hide behind "indigenous" happy to highlight "Joint".



joint meaning 
we will go to China and ask for x y z at 
minimal cost please,
China developed then sends in crates
we receive and paint in green and suggest it's a joint venture 
mean while all money leave pakistan and no young Pakistani engineers or scientist learn or gain experience 
I get it

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> joint meaning
> we will go to China and ask for x y z at
> minimal cost please,
> China developed then sends in crates
> we receive and paint in green and suggest it's a joint venture
> mean while all money leave pakistan and no young Pakistani engineers or scientist learn or gain experience
> I get it



240 Arjun tanks

Hhahahahahaha


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## Anik101

Indos said:


> What is the name of the company who produces this avionics ?


Bharat Electronics Ltd. ,HAL's avionics division and DARE bangalore. Some of the avionics like Multi function displays are manufactured by Samtel electronics.

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## HostileInsurgent

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360068654063366145
AMCA will be the world‘s first fighter Aircraft and to have a Fly-by-Optics system, although is not a very complex tech or ises some high level tech, it just replaces wires with optical fibres which helps the aircraft in being resistant to EMP and is a lightweight system. Idk why others don’t use this tech.

Fly-by-optics is sometimes used instead of fly-by-wire because it offers a higher data transfer rate, immunity to electromagnetic interference and lighter weight. In most cases, the cables are just changed from electrical to optical fiber cables. Sometimes it is referred to as "fly-by-light" due to its use of fiber optics. The data generated by the software and interpreted by the controller remain the same.[_citation needed_] Fly-by-light has the effect of decreasing electro-magnetic disturbances to sensors in comparison to more common fly-by-wire control systems. The Kawasaki P-1 is the first production aircraft in the world to be equipped with such a flight control system.

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## Anik101

HostileInsurgent said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360068654063366145
> AMCA will be the world‘s first fighter Aircraft and to have a Fly-by-Optics system, although is not a very complex tech or ises some high level tech, it just replaces wires with optical fibres which helps the aircraft in being resistant to EMP and is a lightweight system. Idk why others don’t use this tech.
> 
> Fly-by-optics is sometimes used instead of fly-by-wire because it offers a higher data transfer rate, immunity to electromagnetic interference and lighter weight. In most cases, the cables are just changed from electrical to optical fiber cables. Sometimes it is referred to as "fly-by-light" due to its use of fiber optics. The data generated by the software and interpreted by the controller remain the same.[_citation needed_] Fly-by-light has the effect of decreasing electro-magnetic disturbances to sensors in comparison to more common fly-by-wire control systems. The Kawasaki P-1 is the first production aircraft in the world to be equipped with such a flight control system.


Japanese Mitsubishi x2 also uses fly by optics system


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## Anik101

AMCA cockpit

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## HostileInsurgent

Anik101 said:


> Japanese Mitsubishi x2 also uses fly by optics system


I said AMCA will be world’s first Fighter Aircraft to apply Fly-By-Optics. As most of the aircraft flying today are decades old concept including the Fifth Gen aircrafts except a few, hence a newer Aircraft under development AMCA will have a Fly-By-Optics instead of the Fly-By-Wire which will make it’s controls smoother and it will be light weight and doesn’t get affected by electromagnetic interference, and AMCA (If what I read was true) will be the Aircraft with the highest amount of composite materials used in the world at 80% of the body being composite (I repeat if I’m not wrong) as it is a newer aircraft under development, so I feel AMCA will be of the size of F-22 Raptor but have far lighter snd stronger airframe due to heavy utilisation of Composite materials.


Anik101 said:


> AMCA cockpit
> View attachment 716413


I’m happy that they are going for wide area display, boosts capability of the pilots.

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## ssethii

HostileInsurgent said:


> I said AMCA will be world’s first Fighter Aircraft to apply Fly-By-Optics. As most of the aircraft flying today are decades old concept including the Fifth Gen aircrafts except a few, hence a newer Aircraft under development AMCA will have a Fly-By-Optics instead of the Fly-By-Wire which will make it’s controls smoother and it will be light weight and doesn’t get affected by electromagnetic interference, and AMCA (If what I read was true) will be the Aircraft with the highest amount of composite materials used in the world at 80% of the body being composite (I repeat if I’m not wrong) as it is a newer aircraft under development, so I feel AMCA will be of the size of F-22 Raptor but have far lighter snd stronger airframe due to heavy utilisation of Composite materials.
> 
> I’m happy that they are going for wide area display, boosts capability of the pilots.


First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs.

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## HostileInsurgent

ssethii said:


> First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs.


Don’t pollute the thread, we are not a superpower like Pakistan which produces weapons overnight without R&D and Funds. Plus it is a thread of Indian Fighter program, then spam this very same statement of, “First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs” in the Project Azm thread. Pakistanis spam “First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs.” on Indian weapon threads but discuss their own projects under development.

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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> guys,any.idea,on it's radar cross section relative to f35 or su57 or j20 .
> 
> is,Amca partial or full stealth
> 
> another question what electronic warfare suite will it house I hope spectra level.which is amazing for Rafale



Full stealth. But with pylons that can be attached to hardpoints so that on missions that don't need stealth, it can carry external drop tanks, bombs, missiles, etc.


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## HostileInsurgent

MirageBlue said:


> Full stealth. But with pylons that can be attached to hardpoints so that on missions that don't need stealth, it can carry external drop tanks, bombs, missiles, etc.


Will TEDBF have internal weapons bay?


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

ssethii said:


> First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs.



we have already developed most components.


----------



## Anik101

HostileInsurgent said:


> Will TEDBF have internal weapons bay?


No


----------



## ssethii

HostileInsurgent said:


> Don’t pollute the thread, we are not a superpower like Pakistan which produces weapons overnight without R&D and Funds. Plus it is a thread of Indian Fighter program, then spam this very same statement of, “First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs” in the Project Azm thread. Pakistanis spam “First, develop it then start claiming its world-class specs.” on Indian weapon threads but discuss their own projects under development.


Don't get your panties in a bunch, this is a defense forum, and because of people like you, the quality of this forum is going down the drain. If you have even an iota of understanding about things you are talking about you would know maybe a lot of changes are possible when a product is actually realized from its concept so much so that it may totally become a different product altogether. So your claims actually should be "the first fighter jet to have this in its drawings or specifications" which may or may not be the same when the actual product is realized.


----------



## HostileInsurgent

ssethii said:


> Don't get your panties in a bunch, this is a defense forum, and because of people like you, the quality of this forum is going down the drain. If you have even an iota of understanding about things you are talking about you would know maybe a lot of changes are possible when a product is actually realized from its concept so much so that it may totally become a different product altogether. So your claims actually should be "the first fighter jet to have this in its drawings or specifications" which may or may not be the same when the actual product is realized.


May or may not? Which aircraft around the world is proposed to have a FBO except AMCA? The ones which has FBO proposed will come later.

And what quality? Do we say anything when you open threads regarding India’s internal politics and post racist comments without having sn iota of knowledge of ground zero? Here one can abuse Hinduism but remain unbanned, imagine if one responds by mocking your religion, he will be instantly banned. Because it is an “Unbiased“ forum, this thread is regarding an Indian fighter program, if you can’t accept the achievements of ours then who’s forcing you to reply me, let us Indians remain deluded.

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## ssethii

Anik101 said:


> Su30mki uses indian open architecture mission control computer as well as radar computer so no problem in integration of new weapons.
> View attachment 715640


So you are telling us that India went about doing the complex avionics modeling of the SU30-MKI from scratch just to integrate homemade air to air missile and DARE has an avionics source code for SU30 that is totally indigenous and different from the original Russian one.


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## Anik101

ssethii said:


> So you are telling us that India went about doing the complex avionics modeling of the SU30-MKI from scratch just to integrate homemade air to air missile and DARE has an avionics source code for SU30 that is totally indigenous and different from the original Russian one.


Avionics for Su30MKI were not developed for integrating Astra missiles. MKI was a joint Indo Russian project and had Indian and french avionics much before Astra came into the picture. In fact, some of these avionics were exported to Russia for integration with Su30MKK. SU30MKI is actually a redesigned Su30K. Joint development was started in 1996 and first flight took place in 2002.

Su30K






Su30MKI


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## ssethii

HostileInsurgent said:


> May or may not? Which aircraft around the world is proposed to have a FBO except AMCA? The ones which has FBO proposed will come later.
> 
> And what quality? Do we say anything when you open threads regarding India’s internal politics and post racist comments without having sn iota of knowledge of ground zero? Here one can abuse Hinduism but remain unbanned, imagine if one responds by mocking your religion, he will be instantly banned. Because it is an “Unbiased“ forum, this thread is regarding an Indian fighter program, if you can’t accept the achievements of ours then who’s forcing you to reply me, let us Indians remain deluded.


Don't try to make a mountain out of a mole, if a prototype of AMCA flies tomorrow with a distinct feature among its competitors we can all appreciate it until then it's just a world-class sketch and that's about it. 
There are few threads that keep defense enthusiasts want to come to this forum for info regardless of their nationality hard concrete info, and not naive fanboy stuff which decreases the quality of discussion and wastage of time.


Anik101 said:


> Avionics for Su30MKI were not developed for integrating Astra missiles. MKI was a joint Indo Russian project and had Indian and french avionics much before Astra came into the picture. In fact, some of these avionics were exported to Russia for integration with Su30MKK. SU30MKI is actually a redesigned Su30K. Joint development was started in 1996 and first flight took place in 2002.
> 
> Su30K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su30MKI


So the bottom line is you have its source code and you can integrate any weapon system with it regardless of where it came from.

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## The Raven

HostileInsurgent said:


> I said AMCA will be world’s first Fighter Aircraft to apply Fly-By-Optics. As most of the aircraft flying today are decades old concept including the Fifth Gen aircrafts except a few, hence a newer Aircraft under development AMCA will have a Fly-By-Optics instead of the Fly-By-Wire which will make it’s controls smoother and it will be light weight and doesn’t get affected by electromagnetic interference, and AMCA (If what I read was true) will be the Aircraft with the highest amount of composite materials used in the world at 80% of the body being composite (I repeat if I’m not wrong) as it is a newer aircraft under development, so I feel AMCA will be of the size of F-22 Raptor but have far lighter snd stronger airframe due to heavy utilisation of Composite materials.
> 
> I’m happy that they are going for wide area display, boosts capability of the pilots.




No it won't. JF-17B is already using fly-by-optics, as will the JF-17 Block III.

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> No it won't. JF-17B is already using fly-by-optics, as will the JF-17 Block III.


Nah, JF-17 has Fly-by-Wire.


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## The Raven

HostileInsurgent said:


> Nah, JF-17 has Fly-by-Wire.



No, it uses the MIL-STD-1773 fibre optic bus. This was widely reported a few years ago. The B version uses the same fly-by-optic FCS and bus as the Block III.

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> No, it uses the MIL-STD-1773 fibre optic bus. This was widely reported a few years ago. The B version uses the same fly-by-optic FCS and bus as the Block III.


Quote proof pls

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## HostileInsurgent

*AMCA Cockpit and Flight Simulator (operational)*

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## MirageBlue

ssethii said:


> So you are telling us that India went about doing the complex avionics modeling of the SU30-MKI from scratch just to integrate homemade air to air missile and DARE has an avionics source code for SU30 that is totally indigenous and different from the original Russian one.



Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.

Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
- DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
- DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
- IFF-1410A IFF;
- HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
- HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
- LRDE programmable signal processor.


Mrityunjay Rai said:


> Yes we have seen 91000 liking aour feet and begging for mercy after getting cut in two parts.



93,000 actually. 

And they were all served tea and biscuits, apart from watching movies in the comforts of the Indian Prisoner of War camps..

These guys think that shooting down one pilot means that they've won some war or something..lol

had they been handed over to the Mukti Bahini, thousands would've been slaughtered for the unspeakable crimes that the Pakistan Army committed against East Bengalis.


The Raven said:


> No, it uses the MIL-STD-1773 fibre optic bus. This was widely reported a few years ago. The B version uses the same fly-by-optic FCS and bus as the Block III.



Source?

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## ssethii

MirageBlue said:


> Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.


I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.


MirageBlue said:


> Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
> - DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
> - DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
> - DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
> - IFF-1410A IFF;
> - HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
> - HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
> - LRDE programmable signal processor.


I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic

- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
- LRDE programmable signal processor
Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?


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## Vanamali

ssethii said:


> I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.
> 
> I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
> https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic
> 
> - DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
> - LRDE programmable signal processor
> Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?


You mean co-produced or developed??


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## ssethii

Vanamali said:


> You mean co-produced or developed??


some are indigenous some have varying levels of cooperation not much information is available in the public domain to quantify the amount of indigenous content. All I can tell you is if you compare jf17 with other Chinese designs you will see the heavy influence of western design philosophy and standards in jf17 which you can guess comes from PAF's involvement in the project.


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## MirageBlue

ssethii said:


> I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.
> 
> I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
> https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic
> 
> - DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
> - LRDE programmable signal processor
> Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?



Oh is it? So how then did HAL manage to integrate the Brahmos, Astra Mk1 and NGARM that have all been integrated and tested from the Su-30MKI without any Russian involvement? Brahmos and Astra Mk1 are already bought and integrated with the fleet as well. In none of these cases was Russian Irkut involved. And there's many more indigenous and Israeli weapons on the way to be integrated, all of which will be done in house without Irkut's involvement. 

In fact, HAL approached Irkut for help with integrating Brahmos but was asked to pay $200 million (Rs 1200 crores) for it. After that, HAL did the entire project in-house with no support from Irkut, all within a budget of Rs 80 crores. Lol. 

And that INCLUDED structural modifications to the Su-30MKI, all certified as airworthy by India's own military certification agency, CEMILAC and the regional RCMAs.






How the Brahmos missile got integrated with the Su-30MKI



> Modification of the Su-30 MKI for Brahmos integration involved safe stores separation analysis consisting of wind tunnel and CFD (computational fluid dynamics) analysis. Watertight NMG (numerical master geometry) of the aircraft had to be generated from 2D drawings.
> 
> Structural modifications had to be within the aircraft’s centre of gravity (CG) envelope and in such a way that they did not alter vibration characteristics. Carriage and release actuation along with electrical and avionics integration was another challenge. FTI (flight test instrumentation) for the operations along with missile system software modifications also had to be undertaken. All this was done by a consortium of Indian industry led by HAL.
> 
> ..
> Many other agencies like RCMA, DGAQA, CEMILAC, NAL, AST, SDI, MSQAA, NEUCON, and Zeus Numerix worked together on this project.



Obviously you won't wanna start a comparison war here since there is nothing to compare. There is no real in-house capabilities to develop avionics from scratch in Pakistan and that's a fact. Taking existing items and tinkering around with them is basically all there is. All of the items that are listed on that page are from existing foreign OEMs in China and Italy and either being co-produced under license or simply repaired and maintained under ToT. If you wanna boast about that, well what can I say? 

Only a person who has no clue about how important the Mission Computer is will say things like "mission computer is itself no big deal". If it was no big deal, pray tell me why the JF-17 doesn't have a Pakistani designed Mission Computer along with the associated software?

Just to call you out- what is the Military Airworthiness Certification agency or body in Pakistan for avionics, systems or other aviation designs, without which no development is really even feasible?

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## MirageBlue

serenity said:


> Combining Astra missile with Su-30 is impressive. Done so quickly as well. Does anyone know if Russians provided source codes for weapons control for MKI? China took many years and a few maths geniuses to break the codes because the Russians wouldn't allow integration of PL-12 missiles with Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2. Actually took many years to do without codes.
> 
> I wonder if this can be done with new Meteor missiles and India's own fighters which are not from France. Or Astra developed with integration from beginning with approval from Russia?



Source codes would have been required if the Su-30MKI's Mission Computer was Russian. But in fact, the Su-30MKI's Mission Computer (and also that of the Su-30MKA and MKM) is HAL designed and built. Which means that interfacing the pylons with the MC is doable without any Russian support.

Not just Astra, the Brahmos, NG-ARM (Rudram 1) were also integrated similarly, with the Brahmos requiring extensive structural modifications, all of which were done in India without Russian support. There are many more indigenous weapons also in the pipeline, including SAAW, Rudram 2 and 3, Garuthma and Garuda.


ARMalik said:


> Doesn't matter because the centuries old tradition will continue. Enjoy.



Oh we'll enjoy for sure. Worry about where your beloved nation is heading..all the indicators point to only one direction..may be becoming another state of China would be the best solution, after all you guys look to them for everything anyway. lol.

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## ssethii

MirageBlue said:


> Oh is it? So how then did HAL manage to integrate the Brahmos, Astra Mk1 and NGARM that have all been integrated and tested from the Su-30MKI without any Russian involvement? Brahmos and Astra Mk1 are already bought and integrated with the fleet as well. In none of these cases was Russian Irkut involved. And there's many more indigenous and Israeli weapons on the way to be integrated, all of which will be done in house without Irkut's involvement.
> 
> In fact, HAL approached Irkut for help with integrating Brahmos but was asked to pay $200 million (Rs 1200 crores) for it. After that, HAL did the entire project in-house with no support from Irkut, all within a budget of Rs 80 crores. Lol.
> 
> And that INCLUDED structural modifications to the Su-30MKI, all certified as airworthy by India's own military certification agency, CEMILAC and the regional RCMAs.


This brings us to my original question from where our discussion began, do you have source codes for Mission and Weapon Computer(s) which is different from OEM basically another version altogether?
If so, why just stop at the weapon integration why not update the radar and other outdated electronics following the Chinese path of developing the ultimate flanker, or you were somehow able to arm-twist OEM to expose the source codes as part of an offset to another defense procurement.



MirageBlue said:


> Obviously you won't wanna start a comparison war here since there is nothing to compare. There is *no real in-house capabilities to develop avionics from scratch *in Pakistan and that's a fact. Taking existing items and tinkering around with them is basically all there is. All of the items that are listed on that page are from existing foreign OEMs in China and Italy and either being co-produced under license or simply repaired and maintained under ToT. If you wanna boast about that, well what can I say?
> 
> Only a person who has no clue about how important the Mission Computer is will say things like "mission computer is itself no big deal". If it was no big deal, pray tell me why the JF-17 doesn't have a Pakistani designed Mission Computer along with the associated software?
> 
> Just to call you out- what is the Military Airworthiness Certification agency or body in Pakistan for avionics, systems or other aviation designs, without which no development is really even feasible?


If you so vehemently keep underestimating us you will keep getting surprises from our side.


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## dr.knowhow

Anik101 said:


> KAI KFX was started in 1999. AMCA was started in 2009-10
> 
> Metal cutting for both AMCA and Mk2 has started. Tenders for cockpit systems for AMCA were out last year.



No, preliminary design of KF-X was started in 2010 and AMCA in 2011.
Then it was delayed due to various feasibility studies between 2012 ~ 2015. System development started in 2015.




Also, I'd like to ask the Indian members if the plan to develop and manufacture 2 NGTD before EMD phase is scrapped.

IIRC there were some mentioning about NGTD until 2018~2019 but in 2020 DefExpo it was revealed that ADA's plan is to roll out AMCA prototypes in 2024 and to mass produced from 2031. This should mean that they are not building any NGTD and just going straight into EMD phase right?


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## MirageBlue

dr.knowhow said:


> No, preliminary design of KF-X was started in 2010 and AMCA in 2011.
> Then it was delayed due to various feasibility studies between 2012 ~ 2015. System development started in 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I'd like to ask the Indian members if the plan to develop and manufacture 2 NGTD before EMD phase is scrapped.
> 
> IIRC there were some mentioning about NGTD until 2018~2019 but in 2020 DefExpo it was revealed that ADA's plan is to roll out AMCA prototypes in 2024 and to mass produced from 2031. This should mean that they are not building any NGTD and just going straight into EMD phase right?



I believe that the 2 prototypes that are being referred to are the NG-TD prototypes. They will lead to the Production Standard prototypes that will establish the baseline before production is initiated. 

The AMCA is a lot riskier, engineering and program schedule wise due to the number of new technologies that are being attempted. There will be Technology Demonstrators that will need to prove those 5th gen technologies followed by Production Standard prototypes before it will go anywhere near entering production.

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## The Raven

For all the barking done by indian slumdogs about "indigenous" they have no results to show for it - this is the single most fundamental difference between the mindsets of the Pakistani and indian military establishments.

The indians found out the hard way about attempting a completely indigenous fighter, and yet needed "consultancy" from Dassault for the airframe, LockMart for the FCS, radar and avionics from IAI, and weapons from Russia. And that's not to even mention the joke that was, and still is, the kaveri engine. But this is reflected across their entire "indigenous" defence products - the akash is a licence copy of the outdated Soviet era SA-6, their ALH is nothing but a spruced up MBB BK 117, the Brahmos is revamped Soviet AShM, and even their "indigenous" cruise missile has a Russian engine.

The indian approach to defence development is one of reinventing the wheel as an academic exercise to employ a large number babus in poor fitting brown suites. They have the luxury of the entire global defence market at their disposal and can acquire pretty much whatever they like, and can afford the time and money to attempt to reinvent the wheel. But as was shown in 2019, they have very little to show for it, especially when you don't even know how to effectively use the equipment you already have, as demonstrated by not even knowing how to properly programme their Spice SOWS with the correct terrain data. Their so called "Raptor of the East" beat a hasty retreat, while their recently upgraded M2Ks all of a sudden developed "technical issues" all at the same time, and their so called "indigenous" fighters and AWAC were not even in the picture.

In contrast, the Pakistani establishment does not have the time or money as a luxury when it comes to home grown defence capability. Historically, the main challenges facing the Pakistani defence establishment has been, and still is, the imposition of sanctions - something which the indians have never really faced to the same degree. The main priority of the Pakistani armed forces is to ensure sanction proof supply chains and defence systems, which has led to mainly ToT, local manufacture, joint development programmes, and focused on actual results, i.e. the rapid development and deployment of defence systems. That's amply demonstrated by the JF-17, the Babur cruise missile, as well as the Raad SOW. Only now has the Pakistani defence establishment focused its attention on a holistic approach with the setup of project Azm and the aerospace city and university - and even then no one is delusional enough to think the NGF will be completely indigenous - it will require significant collaboration with a third party.

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> The indians found out the hard way about attempting a completely indigenous fighter, and yet needed "consultancy" from Dassault for the airframe, LockMart for the FCS, radar and avionics from IAI, and weapons from Russia.


Just to give yourself a feel good feeling you’ll post rubbish. We do open joint ventures if we need support. Prove your points or don’t derail our AMCA thread.


The Raven said:


> the akash is a licence copy of the outdated Soviet era SA-6


Another brainfart, even I can call Pakistan as licensed copy of middle east.

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## The Raven

HostileInsurgent said:


> Just to give yourself a feel good feeling you’ll post rubbish. We do open joint ventures if we need support. Prove your points or don’t derail our AMCA thread.



https://web.archive.org/web/20131017225618/http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/timeline.html



> *1987*
> 
> Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French aircraft major Dassault Aviation as consultants.







> Project definition commenced in October 1987 with France's Dassault-Breguet Aviation as consultants. Dassault-Breguet were to assist in the design and systems integration of the aircraft, with 30 top-flight engineers reported to have flown to India to act as technical advisers to IADA, in exchange for $100m / ₹560 crore (equivalent to ₹56 billion or US$790 million in 2019), this phase was completed in September 1988.



https://web.archive.org/web/20150118032556/http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/lca.htm



> Various international aircraft and system manufacturers are also participating in the program with supply of specific equipment, design consultancy and support. For example, GE Aircraft Engines provides the propulsion and Lockheed Martin the flight control system.





HostileInsurgent said:


> Another brainfart, even I can call Pakistan as licensed copy of middle east.



Maybe, but then that would make the cow urine drinking hindutva RSS fascists a copy and paste job of Hitler's Third Reich.


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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.
> 
> Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
> - DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
> - DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
> - DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
> - IFF-1410A IFF;
> - HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
> - HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
> - LRDE programmable signal processor.
> 
> 
> 93,000 actually.
> 
> And they were all served tea and biscuits, apart from watching movies in the comforts of the Indian Prisoner of War camps..
> 
> These guys think that shooting down one pilot means that they've won some war or something..lol
> 
> had they been handed over to the Mukti Bahini, thousands would've been slaughtered for the unspeakable crimes that the Pakistan Army committed against East Bengalis.
> 
> 
> Source?


Su30mki doesnt use any indian avionics as i dont believe any indians

I am simply using yout logic ..as per your logiv jf17 uses zero pakistani avionics as you dont believe pakistani sources


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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> but then that would make the cow urine


Even I can make the camel urine jokes on you, would you like it?


ziaulislam said:


> I am simply using yout logic ..as per your logiv jf17 uses zero pakistani avionics as you dont believe pakistani sources


It is not about Pakistani sources. Which lab do you have which develops avionics in Pakistan? We have dozens of dozens of labs one of which is DARE which makes avionics.

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> Doesn't take away the fact you drink cow urine or wash yourselves in faecal infested ganga river.


You assume a lot, tHat EnDiAnS dRiNk cOw pIsS, because this is the thinking which your low IQ brain can provide. Generalising the whole population due to some pics of people doing it for publicity stunt is the only thing you guys can do. Well we all know you can’t do anything except trolling.

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> but your entire political system is based on hindutva RSS ideology which espouses cow urine drinking and cow dung worship


Your IQ level summed in one sentence.

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## The Raven

HostileInsurgent said:


> Your IQ level summed in one sentence.



So you shut up quickly when I provided sources to show your beloved tejus is nothing more than a mish mash of foreigners helping you low IQ indians build a small fighter, and even then its taken you over 30 years and it's not even in service in any meaningful numbers, and all you can do is b1tch and whine with one liners...you don't even know about the sordid history of your own Late Crap Aircraft, so who has the low IQ now?

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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> So you shut up quickly when I provided sources to show your beloved tejus is nothing more than a mish mash of foreigners helping you low IQ indians build a small fighter, and even then its taken you over 30 years and it's not even in service in any meaningful numbers, and all you can do is b1tch and whine with one liners...you don't even know about the sordid history of your own Late Crap Aircraft, so who has the low IQ now?


We are not America who has decades of experience in making aircrafts, at that time we obviously took some help, but the design then and the desiGn now is totally different, the initial design had canards which after some years were dropped out. Today we are doing our AMCA project on our own without any external help in design as no one would do. Only Engine is the domain where we need a JV with RollsRoyce as our Kaveri can’t use after burners for long.

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## The Raven

HostileInsurgent said:


> We are not America who has decades of experience in making aircrafts, at that time we obviously took some help, but the design then and the desiGn now is totally different, the initial design had canards which after some years were dropped out. Today we are doing our AMCA project on our own without any external help in design as no one would do. Only Engine is the domain where we need a JV with RollsRoyce as our Kaveri can’t use after burners for long.



Right, so STFU and don't get your dirty dhoti in a twist *complain* when someone states the truth that you had foreign help to develop your beloved tejus.

https://www.news18.com/news/opinion...signed-the-light-combat-aircraft-3316367.html



> The ADA invited M/s Dassault Aviation for design assistance in developing a lightweight combat aircraft (The Air Force had the Gnat in mind and was looking to replace the Mig-21s). Dassault agreed to support the Project Definition Phase (PDP) wherein the Indian engineers would participate. The aim was to come up with the basic design for the aircraft. The work was carried out in France, using the French facilities.


The original article dating back to the late 80s when Dassault was awarded the contract to design the LCA for the indians...

https://web.archive.org/web/20171222053019/https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 2148.html



> Dassault-Breguet has been selected to assist the Indian Aeronautical Development Authority (IADA) in the design and manufacture of a new Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the prototype's first flight scheduled in 1990. An official statement is expected soon. Thirty top-flight engineers from Dassault-Breguet are due in India shortly to act as technical advisers to IADA in charge of the LCA programme. The aircraft, currently in the project definition stage, is to be a single-seat single-engine design with a 23,0001b maximum takeoff weight and a delta-wing layout. Service entry of the 12-5 tonne air superiority/ ground attack LCA is targeted for 1994, with about 200 required to replace the MiG-21 Fishbeds and HAL Ajeets in the Indian Air Force. The Indian government has been seeking technical assistance from American and European manufacturers for the LCA programme, and a fierce competition has raged among Lockheed, Grumman and Northrop as well as as well as British Aerospace, MBB, Dornier, and DassaultBreguet. Finally, DassaultBreguet was chosen for the LCA programme and won a $100 million technical cooperation contract with India's Aeronautical Development Authority. Dassault-Breguet will assist the Indians in the design and systems integration ' of the aircraft. LCA prototypes will be powered by General Electric F404 engines. The first of 11 GE F404-F2J3 turbofans purchased from the United States in 1986 was delivered earlier this year in preparation for the prototype's first flight. But the French are hoping that the Indian government will, in due course, adopt Snecma's new M88 Mkll fighter engine now under development for the DassaultBreguet Rafale combat aircraft. The LCA's multifunction radar will be designed and developed by an Indian electronics company and produced in India. Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is going ahead with plans for the production of the LCA which will have composite structures and fly-bywire control systems. The French-Indian LCA technical co-operation agreement in no way prejudges the decision which the New Delhi Government is due to take early next year on the selection of a trainer and tactical support aircraft to be purchased abroad and later assembled in India. The British Aerospace Hawk and the DassaultBreguet/Dornier Alpha Jet are competing for this programme. The Indian Government needs 83 such aircraft —75 for the Indian Air Force and eight for the Indian Navy. Following up its LCA success, Dassault-Breguet is going all out to win the trainer deal, too. This latest Indian contract comes as a shot in the arm for Dassault-Breguet which is going through a period of great economic turbulence at home.


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## HostileInsurgent

The Raven said:


> Right, so STFU and don't get your dirty dhoti in a twist when someone states the truth that you had foreign help to develop your beloved tejus.
> 
> https://www.news18.com/news/opinion...signed-the-light-combat-aircraft-3316367.html
> 
> 
> The original article dating back to the late 80s when Dassault was awarded the contract to design the LCA for the indians...
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20171222053019/https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 2148.html


That was in 1987, we had no infrastructure then, and today its different. We have achieved indigenisation in aircraft designing. Now stop spamming Tejas Tejas in AMCA thread.

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## MirageBlue

AMCA cockpit with Large Area Display. This is a 1:1 cockpit engineering mockup to help with studies on ergonomics for the 90th percentile Indian pilot. As can be seen, the pilot is sitting very high in the cockpit..reminds me of how high a pilot sits in the F-15 and F-35 cockpits. Will give excellent outside visibility.

One big difference of course is the AMCA has retained the HUD. A wise decision given how difficult the HMDS for the F-35 has been to develop. HMDS will still be standard on AMCA, but HUD will be retained. 











F-35 cockpit

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## Zapper

ADA-AMCA

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## Anik101

*Government is likely to clear Rs. 15000cr. for AMCA prototype development this year.*
https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/...e-modi-govt-to-soon-approve-ambitious-project


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## Zapper



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376563299928653825

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## jaybird

What happen to all the Indians screaming Chinese J-20 and FC-31/J-35 COPY and STOLEN tech? How come super power Indian came up with another version of J-35 look alike fighter jet and no new revolutionary design at all? By the way, It's a very nice CG render.

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## no smoking

jaybird said:


> What happen to all the Indians screaming Chinese J-20 and FC-31/J-35 COPY and STOLEN tech? How come super power Indian came up with another version of J-35 look alike fighter jet and no new revolutionary design at all? By the way, It's a very nice CG render.



By Indian standard, their scientists are "inspired" by other countries design.
You should be proud that Chinese products become one of sources of inspiration to India.
Of course, they won't admit.

Besides, you can't accuse someone of copy based on CG pic or model.

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## Adonis

no smoking said:


> By Indian standard, *their scientists are "inspired" by other countries design.
> You should be proud that Chinese products become one of sources of inspiration t*o India.
> Of course, they won't admit.
> 
> Besides, you can't accuse someone of copy based on CG pic or model.



Decades of Chinese research to copy and reverse engineer Western and Russian technology but still coming up with Junk...... so much to the "inspiration."

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## Deino

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376563299928653825




Here more of it:









AMCA Upload - 3D model by Ankur (@anx450z)


Aircraft - AMCA Upload - 3D model by Ankur (@anx450z)




sketchfab.com

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## VkdIndian

Deino said:


> Here more of it:


How credible is this model? Is it based on some inside info?


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Here more of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMCA Upload - 3D model by Ankur (@anx450z)
> 
> 
> Aircraft - AMCA Upload - 3D model by Ankur (@anx450z)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sketchfab.com



While beautifully done, I have a feeling that the front fuselage is a bit more elongated than what was displayed by DRDO/HAL at Aero India 2021. 

Compare these 2 images..

Latest AMCA model top view






AMCA top view as per Ankur's model is attached here and to me it's clear that his model is longer from the start of the air intake forward lip, to the leading edge of the wing.

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## no smoking

Adonis said:


> Decades of Chinese research to copy and reverse engineer Western and Russian technology but still coming up with Junk...... so much to the "inspiration."



Then why India doesn't come up with her own junk?

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## Falcon26

no smoking said:


> Then why India doesn't come up with her own junk?


 If China is junk than India is trash.


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## Adonis

no smoking said:


> Then why India doesn't come up with her own junk?


It came...their Covid Vaccine Junk is far better than yours .....


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## HostileInsurgent

jaybird said:


> What happen to all the Indians screaming Chinese J-20 and FC-31/J-35 COPY and STOLEN tech? How come super power Indian came up with another version of J-35 look alike fighter jet and no new revolutionary design at all? By the way, It's a very nice CG render.


It has no similarities to J-35.


no smoking said:


> By Indian standard, their scientists are "inspired" by other countries design.
> You should be proud that Chinese products become one of sources of inspiration to India.
> Of course, they won't admit.
> 
> Besides, you can't accuse someone of copy based on CG pic or model.


It is not even remotely close to a Chinese Aircraft.






Kya se kya ho gaye dekhte dekhte....

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## HostileInsurgent



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## no smoking

Adonis said:


> It came...their Covid Vaccine Junk is far better than yours .....


Is that why they got close to 20k new cases per day now?


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## HostileInsurgent

VkdIndian said:


> How credible is this model? Is it based on some inside info?


He is on D.F.I and we gave him the models there and the pics with which he made the model, yes it mybe inaccurate but is still relevant, its canopy although is the most inaccurate.

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## HostileInsurgent

@Chhatrapati @Zapper @rEd cHiLLi @koolzberg @Capt. Karnage @proud_indian @VkdIndian
@Gilljutt @MirageBlue @Tejas Spokesman @Indos @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @padamchen @pothead @Vikki @Raj-Hindustani @Ghost Hobbit .

*My in depth article on AMCA containing all available information.
I’m not good at writing articles so please pardon me for any mistakes if any.*









India’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft, The AMCA.


AMCA or the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft which will be manufactured by HAL. The AMCA programme…




flyingdaggers45.medium.com






HostileInsurgent said:


> @Chhatrapati @Zapper @rEd cHiLLi @koolzberg @Capt. Karnage @proud_indian @VkdIndian
> @Gilljutt @MirageBlue @Tejas Spokesman @Indos @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @padamchen @pothead @Vikki .
> 
> My in depth article on AMCA containing all available information.
> I’m not good at writing articles so please pardon me for any mistakes if any.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft, The AMCA.
> 
> 
> AMCA or the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft which will be manufactured by HAL. The AMCA programme…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flyingdaggers45.medium.com


Will add more info to it also, once they are available.

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## White and Green with M/S

HostileInsurgent said:


> View attachment 732406
> 
> View attachment 732407
> 
> View attachment 732408
> 
> 
> It has no similarities to J-35.
> 
> It is not even remotely close to a Chinese Aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kya se kya ho gaye dekhte dekhte....
> View attachment 732413
> View attachment 732412


LOL it have the similarities to both F-35/J-31


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## HostileInsurgent

White and Green with M/S said:


> LOL it have the similarities to both F-35/J-31


It may have similarities in looks so? By that logic every midwing aircraft and delta canard have similarities.

here is my detailed article if you want to know more.








India’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft, The AMCA.


AMCA or the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft which will be manufactured by HAL. The AMCA programme…




flyingdaggers45.medium.com


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## White and Green with M/S

HostileInsurgent said:


> It may have similarities in looks so? By that logic every midwing aircraft and delta canard have similarities.
> 
> here is my detailed article if you want to know more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft, The AMCA.
> 
> 
> AMCA or the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft which will be manufactured by HAL. The AMCA programme…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flyingdaggers45.medium.com


Can i post he pics of J-31/F-35 to have a look similarities of your AMCA with these 5th gen jets, its quite similar to J-31/F-35, look dude inspirations and based upon is not bad thing to start with, and design for scratch is/will take too much time for developing countries to cope with when your enemy (China) is more advance than you

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## HostileInsurgent

HostileInsurgent said:


> @Chhatrapati @Zapper @rEd cHiLLi @koolzberg @Capt. Karnage @proud_indian @VkdIndian
> @Gilljutt @MirageBlue @Tejas Spokesman @Indos @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @padamchen @pothead @Vikki @Raj-Hindustani @Ghost Hobbit .
> 
> *My in depth article on AMCA containing all available information.
> I’m not good at writing articles so please pardon me for any mistakes if any.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft, The AMCA.
> 
> 
> AMCA or the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft which will be manufactured by HAL. The AMCA programme…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flyingdaggers45.medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will add more info to it also, once they are available.


It took 3 hours to write this all, it is too huge and has almost everything.


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## Anik101

*2024 T/R module GaN-based X-band AESA radar for AMCA will be ready by October 2022. 
AN/APG-81 used in F35 has 1676 T/R modules

https://alphadefense.in/alpha-exclusive-amca-uttam-gan-aesa/*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386822343658377217

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## HostileInsurgent

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390287120934207491


Anik101 said:


> *2024 T/R module GaN-based X-band AESA radar for AMCA will be ready by October 2022.
> AN/APG-81 used in F35 has 1676 T/R modules
> 
> https://alphadefense.in/alpha-exclusive-amca-uttam-gan-aesa/*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386822343658377217


From where did you get that 2024 T/R Module figure? I thought we’re planning for 1500 T/R Modules as AMCA is a medium weight aircraft.


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## HostileInsurgent



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## Anik101

HostileInsurgent said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390287120934207491
> From where did you get that 2024 T/R Module figure? I thought we’re planning for 1500 T/R Modules as AMCA is a medium weight aircraft.


AFAIK they released some tender for fabrication of the fabrication of first unit. It had some details which indicated that it will have ~2000 GaN based T/R modules.


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## Anik101

Technology for fly by optics under development

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387942335581917185

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## Anik101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1391203788338368518

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## Lord Of Gondor

Important update by Amit Kashyap/Defence Decode

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## Bilal9

no smoking said:


> By Indian standard, their scientists are "inspired" by other countries design.
> You should be proud that Chinese products become one of sources of inspiration to India.
> Of course, they won't admit.
> 
> Besides, you can't accuse someone of copy based on CG pic or model.



You guys don't get it. When Indians copy Chinese designs it is not copy. 

Bhakt fanboys (Dee-zuy-narrs) coming up with AMCA CGI renders every day that don't exist in reality, each one different from the next.

In any case, its a CGI render, not real, so who cares?

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## Anik101

*Making the Mission Computer Intelligent – A Step Ahead.*
This paper presents the approach of applying the artificial intelligence (AI) techniques in the critical mission computer (MC).

cognitive processing in the MC will make MC to act as an electronic crew assistant sharing the workload of the pilot and helping him in severe situations.

It was being developed since 2013 now it's ready.
https://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/index.php/dsj/article/view/4260

Most of the research work on AMCA subsystems has been completed and once the funds are released first prototype will be ready within 24 months.

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## CIA Mole

Bilal9 said:


> You guys don't get it. When Indians copy Chinese designs it is not copy.
> 
> Bhakt fanboys (Dee-zuy-narrs) coming up with AMCA CGI renders every day that don't exist in reality, each one different from the next.
> 
> In any case, its a CGI render, not real, so who cares?



they have to choose btw amca and hindutva, they can’t have both

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## HostileInsurgent

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398952698205114373

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398858809255284736

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## Lord Of Gondor

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Important update by Amit Kashyap/Defence Decode


And she is seen in real!
The Flying Test Bed for the AMCA sensors!








Images shared by Gaurav Shetty on Twitter
Superb name as well "अनुसंधान"
Research in English

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## HostileInsurgent

Lord Of Gondor said:


> And she is seen in real!
> The Flying Test Bed for the AMCA sensors!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images shared by Gaurav Shetty on Twitter
> Superb name as well "अनुसंधान"
> Research in English


Love to see AMCA radome on it.
By the way this is the F-22 Raptor testbed

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## Lord Of Gondor

Another shot shared by Grp Capt HV Thakur on Twitter




Image by Praneeth Franklin
A few more by Raghav Kidambi on Twitter

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## MirageBlue

This is a big development. Will make a huge difference in testing the sensors for the AMCA, TEDBF and others. Far better option than the earlier Flying Hack on the Avro HS-748 that was used to test LCA avionics and sensors.

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## monitor

"#AMCA is a 5.5 generation aircraft, Work on the aircraft is going on very seriously. Scientists have developed many of the core technologies that are required for a 5+ gen aircraft": DRDO chief in an interview to StarNews. 🙄🙄🙄🙄


In which decade this AMCA will come ? 🤔🤔🤔


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## Ghost Hobbit

MirageBlue said:


> This is a big development. Will make a huge difference in testing the sensors for the AMCA, TEDBF and others. Far better option than the earlier Flying Hack on the Avro HS-748 that was used to test LCA avionics and sensors.



Is this one of teh Air India planes that was supposed to be transferred to IAF?


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## no smoking

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Another shot shared by Grp Capt HV Thakur on Twitter
> 
> Image by Praneeth Franklin
> A few more by Raghav Kidambi on Twitter



Sorry, I tried very hard to look for the sensor, but can't find?
Where is it?


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## Lord Of Gondor

no smoking said:


> Sorry, I tried very hard to look for the sensor, but can't find?
> Where is it?


The image is from the delivery flight (Delhi). The aircraft will be modified in due course by CABS(Bengaluru)


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## MirageBlue

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Is this one of teh Air India planes that was supposed to be transferred to IAF?



Yes


no smoking said:


> Sorry, I tried very hard to look for the sensor, but can't find?
> Where is it?



This is a testbed for the AMCA's radar and other sensors. Other such former Air India A-319s will also be transferred to DRDO for the AEW&C test-bed. Eventually the nose radome will be modified to carry the AMCA's Uttam AESA radar. 

Since Airbus is the design authority on the A-320 family, any structural changes will likely have to be made by Airbus at their facilities. That is the "plank" that will carry the AESA radar, similar to the EMB-145 based Netra AEW&C.

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## Black Tornado

He is the Deputy General Manager Design of HINDUSTAN AERONAUTICS LIMITED, Bangalore.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420955765980893185
@MirageBlue @koolzberg @Syama Ayas @rEd cHiLLi

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## Black Tornado



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## Anik101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417419825572315138

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418832792406872066
*Indian scientists discover materials that self-repair mechanical damages*


Posted On: 24 JUL 2021 5:10PM by PIB Delhi



New materials may soon make it possible for damaged electronic components, such as in space crafts, to mend themselves. The materials recently developed by scientists can repair their own mechanical damages with the electrical charges generated by the mechanical impact on them.



















*Publication link:* doi: 10.1126/science.abg3886

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## Anik101

Anik101 said:


> *2024 T/R module GaN-based X-band AESA radar for AMCA will be ready by October 2022.
> AN/APG-81 used in F35 has 1676 T/R modules
> 
> https://alphadefense.in/alpha-exclusive-amca-uttam-gan-aesa/*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386822343658377217





Anik101 said:


> Technology for fly by optics under development
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387942335581917185





Anik101 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1391203788338368518





Anik101 said:


> *Making the Mission Computer Intelligent – A Step Ahead.*
> This paper presents the approach of applying the artificial intelligence (AI) techniques in the critical mission computer (MC).
> 
> cognitive processing in the MC will make MC to act as an electronic crew assistant sharing the workload of the pilot and helping him in severe situations.
> 
> It was being developed since 2013 now it's ready.
> https://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/index.php/dsj/article/view/4260
> 
> Most of the research work on AMCA subsystems has been completed and once the funds are released first prototype will be ready within 24 months.

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## SQ8

This is the true revolutionary project in India - no F-35 ls or checkmates - this project has the potential both as a successful product but also in gearing up Indian private sector Industry to equate(if not best) the Chinese. But only if bureaucrats and vested interests don’t get in its way

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## VkdIndian

SQ8 said:


> But only if bureaucrats and vested interests don’t get in its way


The biggest challenge that it has to face. Sadly, it is not even from across the borders.

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## Black Tornado

Anik101 said:


> *2024 T/R module GaN-based X-band AESA radar for AMCA will be ready by October 2022.
> AN/APG-81 used in F35 has 1676 T/R modules
> 
> https://alphadefense.in/alpha-exclusive-amca-uttam-gan-aesa/*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386822343658377217


F-35 doesn’t have a GaN radar as of now, but I’ve heard that they are getting it, maybe their T/R module count may be far more.

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## Anik101

Airframe construction has started.....
*Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India*


HYDERABAD: As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU, Midhani, has begun supplying the titanium alloy material needed to make the airframe for the aircraft.
“The airframe is an important part of AMCA which is being developed for the first time in India. Other structures come up on airframe and to make it, we have provided a strategic titanium alloy. Some of the requirements have already been met,” Midhani CMD Sanjay Kumar Jha told TOI.








Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India


As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU,




m.timesofindia.com

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## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> Airframe construction has started.....
> *Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India*
> 
> 
> HYDERABAD: As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU, Midhani, has begun supplying the titanium alloy material needed to make the airframe for the aircraft.
> “The airframe is an important part of AMCA which is being developed for the first time in India. Other structures come up on airframe and to make it, we have provided a strategic titanium alloy. Some of the requirements have already been met,” Midhani CMD Sanjay Kumar Jha told TOI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India
> 
> 
> As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.timesofindia.com



No Tejas delivered by HAL this year, no MK1A taken off yet, no MK2 Tejas even built yet, but now they are "constructing" AMCA.

Only in India, only in India......

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## CaptainSoap42

Yasser76 said:


> No Tejas delivered by HAL this year,


Their operations have been affected by the wuhan virus.


Yasser76 said:


> no MK1A taken off yet


seriously? The order has been placed for 83 LCA MK-1A literally a few months back.


Yasser76 said:


> no MK2 Tejas even built yet


Prototype construction phase, currently is following timeline.


Yasser76 said:


> but now they are "constructing" AMCA.


Why not? Building prototypes and all simultaneously is a good step.


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## Yasser76

CaptainSoap42 said:


> Their operations have been affected by the wuhan virus.
> 
> seriously? The order has been placed for 83 LCA MK-1A literally a few months back.
> 
> Prototype construction phase, currently is following timeline.
> 
> Why not? Building prototypes and all simultaneously is a good step.



You made my point for me. Everything is "going to happen", been like this for years, nothing changes.


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## CaptainSoap42

Yasser76 said:


> You made my point for me. Everything is "going to happen", been like this for years, nothing changes.


What do you want? Everything to happen overnight?


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## Sharma Ji

Yasser76 said:


> Everything is "going to happen", been like this for years, nothing changes.


That's sadly been the way business is done even in these crucial PSUs.. babu culture, slackers. 

One of the many good thing the Modi admin has done is to trim the bureaucracy, divest, and encourage private players taking the work culture away from the old Raj era and subsequent Nehruvian socialist ways toward something much more modern, and one can see a lot of work and progress being made in the defence sector.

AMCA will go through at a much quicker pace than the LCA for sure, watch this space.

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## Yasser76

Sharma Ji said:


> That's sadly been the way business is done even in these crucial PSUs.. babu culture, slackers.
> 
> One of the many good thing the Modi admin has done is to trim the bureaucracy, divest, and encourage private players taking the work culture away from the old Raj era and subsequent Nehruvian socialist ways toward something much more modern, and one can see a lot of work and progress being made in the defence sector.
> 
> AMCA will go through at a much quicker pace than the LCA for sure, watch this space.



Yes, your fellow posters said MK1A will be quicker then MK1, then other said MK2 will be quicker then MK1A, but guess what? Nothing has flown, so naturally I do expect you to say the AMCA will be quicker and so on and so on till next month you will tell us your 7th Gen Fighter is ready to fly and will be quicker then AMCA.

Words are all well and good, you still do not even have 2 full squadrons of LCA after 6 years of production.

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## Sharma Ji

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, your fellow posters said MK1A will be quicker then MK1, then other said MK2 will be quicker then MK1A, but guess what? Nothing has flown, so naturally I do expect you to say the AMCA will be quicker and so on and so on till next month you will tell us your 7th Gen Fighter is ready to fly and will be quicker then AMCA.
> 
> Words are all well and good, you still do not even have 2 full squadrons of LCA after 6 years of production.


Well yes, they're not the most efficient, unfortunately, and change is slow. 

ki karan ?


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## MirageBlue

Should be rather accurate, given the design is frozen and the person handing the model is ADA's Director, Dr Girish Deodhare and the person receiving it is ACM RKS Bhadauria.

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## Deino

Sudarshan said:


> View attachment 766331




Can anyone explain what's the reason behind this change in the horizontal tails's leading edge? No fighter has this and there are several ones with quite a similar configuration like the F-22, F-35, FC-31, KF-21, TFX, ... ??

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## serenity

Deino said:


> Can anyone explain what's the reason behind this change in the horizontal tails's leading edge? No fighter has this and there are several ones with quite a similar configuration like the F-22, F-35, FC-31, KF-21, TFX, ... ??
> 
> View attachment 773514



This picture seems fan made by someone unfamiliar with stealth design. There are three angles in the stabilizer when there should be just two. Or interpret it as two angles with depth parallel to wingtip angle rather than one angle with depth parallel with wingtip angle. Or they are comfortable with having an extra non aligned angle.

Anyway we are talking about preliminary fan made PPTs and models. Even the actual AMCA planned they said as finalized is not totally shown yet.

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## Anik101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434931653319741444

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## The Maverick

THIS AMCA looks very much like the F35 LIGHTENING 

i SUSPECT STATIC MODEL by 2025 
First flight 2026 
IOC 2032
FOC 2035 

Good thing India now has infrastucture in place to design and build fighters Drones & Helos


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## Black Tornado

MirageBlue said:


> Should be rather accurate, given the design is frozen and the person handing the model is ADA's Director, Dr Girish Deodhare and the person receiving it is ACM RKS Bhadauria.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443838976490500096


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## Black Tornado

Sudarshan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443838976490500096


If it’s true then it’s great we’ll have EOTS.


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## Black Tornado

Yasser76 said:


> No Tejas delivered by HAL this year, no MK1A taken off yet, no MK2 Tejas even built yet, but now they are "constructing" AMCA.
> 
> Only in India, only in India......


AMCA prototype is a different thing compared to the serial production of the LCA.


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## Anik101

Actuator for AMCA...






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451511773404622851*2024

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## Black Tornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456733077422497794

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456728219290255362

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## Black Tornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456810789180874752

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## Anik101

Sudarshan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456810789180874752

















World's hardest self-healing material developed by Indian scientists


The material can repair its own cracks in less than a second.




www.techexplorist.com

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## Surya 1

*India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.

by Mark Episkopos

*Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.

In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.

The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true


The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.

The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.








India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025


The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.




nationalinterest.org

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## Black Tornado

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> hat Happens When Kamala Harris Lives in Your Condo ComplexMansion Global
> 
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org



There is a thread on AMCA already, opening new threads don’t make any sense.
And this news has been posted as a thread before


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## Maula Jatt

By 2025 is ambitious to say the least

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## Areesh

LOL

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## Waiting

Just like teja…….

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## baqai

Jack Of All, Master Of None was specifically said for Indians i think. Why can't you guys just focus on one thing, complete it and take on another task instead of making such tall claims?

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## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org


Tejas took 40 odd years
Amca will take 19 to 20 years if 2025 deadline is met but will HAL and IAF will be able to meet 22025 deadline ? Or will it be


Surya 1 said:


> *liable to change in the coming years*


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## Surya 1

The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.

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## PWFI



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## yesboss

More like 3025.

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## Surya 1

Surya 1 said:


> The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.


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## AZMwi

کی فخریہ پیشکش, سموسے کے بعد پیش خدمت ہے پکوڑا HAL

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## IceCold

We have full confidence in DRDO to deliver.

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## xuxu1457

You are the world always on the road.


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## Surya 1

Surya 1 said:


> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.


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## RangeMaster

Surya 1 said:


> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.


Sixth Gen, AI.... Really??
That too in 2025....Really??? 
And that too by India.... Really???? 

Smelling what now? Must be good sh*t...?

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## donkeykong

not happening when India can not even make a bicycle


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## Salza

Yes, ok, i agree, they will develop it some day but IAF will not agree to induct those majestic planes in their inventory just like Teja bhai. Case closed. Next bongi please!


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## StraightEdge

Probably be available after I retire. Why post nonsense? Not even US/China can make something so complicated so fast. In any case 80% of all important components are imported from other countries.


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## ARMalik

*FREAKING CLOWNS !!*   😂

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## Surya 1

RangeMaster said:


> Sixth Gen, AI.... Really??
> That too in 2025....Really???
> And that too by India.... Really????
> 
> Smelling what now? Must be good sh*t...?




It is a US based magazines who has written it. AI may be very big thing for you but now AI has found its application in Indian automobiles as well. When It comes to IT and AI, Who else can be ahead of India?

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## Indos

The writer is Western reporter, they dont know Asian fighter development so deeply. The publication is not as good as publication from Janes (which has local/region correspondent) etc.

Better use Indian site like Tarmac where the project director is interviewed directly. Tejas will be developed in stages and first block will be 4.5 generation fighter with Stealthy design, mostly similar with KF21/IFX

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## Surya 1

StraightEdge said:


> Probably be available after I retire. Why post nonsense? Not even US/China can make something so complicated so fast. In any case 80% of all important components are imported from other countries.



This is in making for a Decade if you have the knowledge. 80% components are Imported? From where did you get this information from?


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## donkeykong

India won't be able to make a fifth gen fighter for at least another 20years. That would put them more than 30years behind China at least.


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## Surya 1

Indos said:


> The writer is Western reporter, they dont know Asian fighter development so deep. The publication is not as good as publication from Janes etc.
> 
> Better use Indian site like Tarmac where the project director is interviewed directly. Tejas will be developed in stages and first block will be 4.5 generation fighter with Stealthy design, mostly similar with KF21/IFX



Even UK has shown interest in partnering in AMCA program. DO you know that? If a country like UK which makes the plane like Eurofighter wants to partner in AMCA, the plane has the stuff. AMCA is developed in 2 stages. First will have GE 414 engine and the second one will have TVC engine with other improvements. India has proved its worth in many complex missiles and system. It is a matter of time before Indian emerges as a top country manufacturing state of art fighter planes comparable to US.

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## RangeMaster

Surya 1 said:


> AI has found its application in Indian automobiles as well. When It comes to IT and AI, Who else can be ahead of India?


Oh my dear Surya....you solved my problem. I was wondering how come Indian vehicles brands are so popular all over, from East Asia to North America? I didn't know they incorporate next Gen AI and mechine learning. Who the F buys Tesla, Toyota, VW or GM when you've TATA, Mahindra and Ashok. 

No one's behind India in IT market. Without Indian call centers and back alley outsourcing, US tech giants would cease to exist.

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## donkeykong

Surya 1 said:


> It is a matter of time before Indian emerges as a top country manufacturing state of art fighter planes comparable to US


LOL who would ever buy Indian made stuff?


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## RangeMaster

Surya 1 said:


> Even UK has shown interest in partnering in AMCA program. DO you know that? If a country like UK which makes the plane like Eurofighter wants to partner in AMCA, the plane has the stuff. AMCA is developed in 2 stages. First will have GE 414 engine and the second one will have TVC engine with other improvements. India has proved its worth in many complex missiles and system. It is a matter of time before Indian emerges as a top country manufacturing state of art fighter planes comparable to US.



Some really good sh*t you are smoking. Tell me your dealer. I need it. Double price. Regular customer. Will promote it in my mates.

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## Surya 1

donkeykong said:


> India won't be able to make a fifth gen fighter for at least another 20years. That would put them more than 30years behind China at least.



But Which 5th generation plane does China have? J 20? It has no fifth generation stuff like low RCS, good engine, Good Radar, Good weapons or EW. It is like Chinese car copied from BMW which gets 0 /5 crash rating lower than Nanao car of India. Chinese yet say that they make cars like BMW. China is such a great country which makes (According to them) 5th generation plane yet imports 4th generation plane from Russia. Congratulation to China for being 30 years ahead.

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## donkeykong

Surya 1 said:


> But Which 5th generation plane does China have? J 20? It has no fifth generation stuff like low RCS, good engine, Good Radar, Good weapons or EW. It is like Chinese car copied from BMW which gets 0 /5 crash rating lower than Nanao car of India. Chinese yet say that they make cars like BMW.


who said China makes BMW cars you making stuff up? China makes a lot of things and they are light years ahead of India in every possible way. China is at least 30-50years ahead of Indian military/economically/politically/socially/IQ wise/Olympic medals. India can not compare with China in anything.


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## abdulbarijan

Let me just quote one little snippet of information that many will find interesting. About the LCA Tejas

*" The first aircraft under the program was expected to be built by 1994. "
HAL Tejas: Timelines, Capabilities, and Future*

The point being, lets not take the program timelines by the Indian side too seriously.

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## Indos

Surya 1 said:


> Even UK has shown interest in partnering in AMCA program. DO you know that? If a country like UK which makes the plane like Eurofighter wants to partner in AMCA, the plane has the stuff. AMCA is developed in 2 stages. First will have GE 414 engine and the second one will have TVC engine with other improvements. India has proved its worth in many complex missiles and system. It is a matter of time before Indian emerges as a top country manufacturing state of art fighter planes comparable to US.



You guys also the one who said India will be 3 trillion USD economy in 2021 where I need to corrected some of you by saying it is impossible to reach it this year. You guys even dont correct the Wikipedia and uses latest IMF projection, even in the beginning of 2021, there is no 2020 nominal GDP in Wikipedia and I brought it to PDF and some one fix it 

Here 2021 GDP based on latest projection


----------



## donkeykong

abdulbarijan said:


> Let me just quote one little snippet of information that many will find interesting. About the LCA Tejas
> 
> *" The first aircraft under the program was expected to be built by 1994. "
> HAL Tejas: Timelines, Capabilities, and Future*
> 
> The point being, lets not take the program timelines by the Indian side too seriously.


Considering Tejas and indian incompetence...India will develop a sub par 5th gen fighter 20-30years from now when most countries have 6th gen fighters in their arsenals and China/US researching 7th gen by then.


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## jupiter2007

They can do it if they hire Chinese. 😆


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## Tshering22

jupiter2007 said:


> They can do it if they hire Chinese. 😆



Learning how to build something from scratch takes time, but it has its own benefits. The learning curve that comes along helps in building a strong foundation even if it takes time or the team faces lots of challenges. 

China's aerospace industry also took a lot of time to make its J-20; its first success as a modern fighter jet manufacturer was the j-10 that became the bedrock of Chinese aerospace capabilities, resulting in rapid follow-on development of projects.

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## Surya 1

Indos said:


> You guys also the one who said India will be 3 trillion USD economy in 2021 where I need to corrected some of you by saying it is impossible to reach it this year. You guys even dont correct the Wikipedia and uses latest IMF projection, even in the beginning of 2021, there is no 2020 nominal GDP in Wikipedia and I brought it to PDF and some one fix it
> 
> Here 2021 GDP based on latest projection



Congratulations on being proving us wrong. We said 3 Tr USD and it is 2.9446 Tr USD as per your source. We fell short by 0.055 Tr USD which is less than 2pc of target figure. This is inspite of two waves of covid. You proved right.

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org




Amca project has not been even sanctioned yet. The only amount sanctioned is to get an test bed from Air India to test sensors and radars, EW suites for AMCA.


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## Abid123



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## GamoAccu

India's 5th gen stealth fighter will have all the important parts imported from US, Russia, UK, Israel, and France. India will be putting on the paint and stickers.


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## Thorough Pro

Did you mean 3025? There is only one way to achieve that in 2025, crash the Tejas and they become stealthy.



Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org


----------



## K_Bin_W

GamoAccu said:


> India's 5th gen stealth fighter will have all the important parts imported from US, Russia, UK, Israel, and France. India will be putting on the paint and stickers.


And it still won't work


----------



## Turingsage

donkeykong said:


> Considering Tejas and indian incompetence...India will develop a sub par 5th gen fighter 20-30years from now when most countries have 6th gen fighters in their arsenals and China/US researching 7th gen by then.



Yes written by that world famous researcher
*"Samran Ali*
Samran Ali is an Islamabad-based defense analyst"




Time line is unrealistic. Ambition is just about realisable. We have to shoot for the stars so we can manages to get to Mars.

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## kuge

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org


hopefully it will not turn out to be like superpower 2012,2020

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## Surya 1

kuge said:


> hopefully it will not turn out to be like superpower 2012,2020



I am sure that it will not turn out to be like J 20 (A three and half generation plane advertised as 5th generation)

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## Imran Khan

india will have stealth in papers and files even in 2030 . we have seen already how indians work

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## Deino

Sainthood 101 said:


> By 2025 is ambitious to say the least




No, in fact it is *IMPOSSIBLE*!

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## applesauce

2025? 

i see, so a barely working prototype with 95% foreign components will be ready by 2150 is what they're saying.


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## Indos

Surya 1 said:


> Congratulations on being proving us wrong. We said 3 Tr USD and it is 2.9446 Tr USD as per your source. We fell short by 0.055 Tr USD which is less than 2pc of target figure. This is inspite of two waves of covid. You proved right.



India economy is already close to 3 trillion USD since 2019 and every body knows that, but to pass that 3 trillion marks is something that Indian hoping, same thing when Indonesia wanted to pass for the first time the 1 trillion USD mark in 2017.

What I said is that India is not likely passing 3 trillion USD mark this year, that is because many Indian member already said in PDF and even make a special thread that India economy has already 3 trillion USD economy. Indian Wki member is so quick to add that 3 trillion but not correcting the number after IMF revison came in November, it shows the important of that 3 trillion passing in the mind of Indian.

Passing that number is indeed something that any Indian wants to see, but not easy to do that due to several circumtances , it is similar like how Indonesia gets difficulty to reach 1 trillion USD mark and become trillion dollar countries club despite having already been 900 billion USD nominal GDP since 2011, but due to our gradual currency depreciation then we can only pass it in 2017.









List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Zapper

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org


You should've known by now any India related news will be turned into a massive troll fest...are you dumb enough not to realize that until now or are you just another troll adversary!!

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## Farhan Bohra

Indos said:


> India economy is already close to 3 trillion USD since 2019 and every knows that, but to pass that 3 trillion marks is something that Indian hoping, same thing when Indonesia pass for the first time the 1 trillion USD mark in 2017.
> 
> What I said is that India is not likely passing 3 trillion USD mark this year, that is because many Indian member already said in PDF and even make a special thread that India economy has already 3 trillion USD economy. Not to mention if you see on Wikipedia stating in 2021 India economy has already reach 3 trillion USD. Same like Indonesia that gets difficulty to reach 1 trillion USD despite of have already been 900 billion USD nominal GDP since 2011, but due to our currency depreciation then we can only pass it in 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


What Indian GDP figures or Indonesian GDP figures have to do with AMCA? Seriously wtf?


Indos said:


> The writer is Western reporter, they dont know Asian fighter development so deeply. The publication is not as good as publication from Janes (which has local/region correspondent) etc.
> 
> Better use Indian site like Tarmac where the project director is interviewed directly. Tejas will be developed in stages and first block will be 4.5 generation fighter with Stealthy design, mostly similar with KF21/IFX


Janes is a good publication for Indian development? They don't even have first hand information from India. And they are good? Hmmmm.




RangeMaster said:


> Sixth Gen, AI.... Really??
> That too in 2025....Really???
> And that too by India.... Really????
> 
> Smelling what now? Must be good sh*t...?


its most likely talking about Voice Activated Control System, VACS is already developed for Super Sukhoi. So nothing new here,

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## Indos

Farhan Bohra said:


> What Indian GDP figures or Indonesian GDP figures have to do with AMCA? Seriously wtf?
> 
> Janes is a good publication for Indian development? They don't even have first hand information from India. And they are good? Hmmmm.



Look on previous conversation between me and that Indian member, then you will understand, I dont need to spoon feed you.

Janes is good publication rather than this news on the OP. You need to improve your thinking ability when it comes to understand the context of the conversation.


----------



## SuvarnaTeja

Zapper said:


> You should've known by now any India related news will be turned into a massive troll fest...are you dumb enough not to realize that until now?



That @Surya 1 guy is not an Indian just like @TEJAS spokesperson.

They post news and make tall claims to invite Pakistani trolls.

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## Farhan Bohra

Indos said:


> Look on previous conversation between me and that Indian member, then you will understand, I dont need to spoon feed you.
> 
> Janes is good publication rather than this news on the OP. You need to improve your thinking ability when it comes to understand the context of the conversation.


You publishing figures of GDP number on AMCA thread, and justifying it? And if you believe Janes is a good publication, then I have nothing more to say and just to laugh at your ignorance.


----------



## waz

Only five nations in the world can make from scratch a turbofan capable to power and fit a jet fighter, the US, UK, France, Russia and China. 
You simply cannot pledge to make your 'own' stealth fighter if you can't make the power plant i.e. the most important part of any such project. 
This is why many sideline the Gripen, although a great aircraft but with a US engine, so prone to sanctions and not truly Swedish.

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## Stranagor

Surya 1 said:


> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.



And why not '7th generation personality' and '8th generation humor' -- while you are at it? Don't waste ambition.


----------



## Surya 1

Stranagor said:


> And why not '7th generation personality' and '8th generation humor' -- while you are at it? Don't waste ambition.



It is from the article published in US media. BH will not hrlp.


SuvarnaTeja said:


> That @Surya 1 guy is not an Indian just like @TEJAS spokesperson.
> 
> They post news and make tall claims to invite Pakistani trolls.



This is from US news articles. If some guys can not digest and trolls, it is their problem.

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## Farhan Bohra

waz said:


> Only five nations in the world can make from scratch a turbofan capable to power and fit a jet fighter, the US, UK, France, Russia and China.
> You simply cannot pledge to make your 'own' stealth fighter if you can't make the power plant i.e. the most important part of any such project.
> This is why many sideline the Gripen, although a great aircraft but with a US engine, so prone to sanctions and not truly Swedish.


while azm can? Strawman argument?


----------



## waz

Farhan Bohra said:


> while azm can? Strawman argument?



Of course not why do think it can? Pakistan simply does not have that level of capability. Oh yes seeing as I have Pakistani flags you’d pop it in. If you paid careful attention to detail you’d notice that I used the Gripen as an example.


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## Black Tornado




----------



## Farhan Bohra

EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing - Alpha Defense


By Subodh Sharma and Aman Routray The stealth fighters carry a unique type of sensor that allows them to target the enemy in a passive mode i.e without emitting any radiation. This further ensures the radar cross-section of the fighter jet does not get la-di-da. This unique sensor is called ETOS...




alphadefense.in





EOTS for AMCA from IRDE

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## Deino

Probably even more important ... its engine!



https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/drdo-and-safran-to-develop-engine-for-indigenous-stealth-fighter/article65090271.ece

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## Wesen Hunter

Deino said:


> Probably even more important ... its engine!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/drdo-and-safran-to-develop-engine-for-indigenous-stealth-fighter/article65090271.ece


This for second batch. 
First batch will have F414.

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Probably even more important ... its engine!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/drdo-and-safran-to-develop-engine-for-indigenous-stealth-fighter/article65090271.ece


 
Interesting for France - it does allow for France to develop a newer class of engine that the current M88 series they have with greater thrust - with a large portion of it paid for by India ..

It does allow France to hedge its bets against Germany on the FCAS programme aswell with their Safran/MTU tie up to develop the engine for the FCAS.


----------



## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting for France - it does allow for France to develop a newer class of engine that the current M88 series they have with greater thrust - with a large portion of it paid for by India ..
> 
> It does allow France to hedge its bets against Germany on the FCAS programme aswell with their Safran/MTU tie up to develop the engine for the FCAS.




Surely both, since - at least by the latest news - GB is co-developing the engine for the TFX/MMU which was just joined by Pakistan it's their chance to take a piece of the cake and indeed, such an engine would put them in an even better position to argue with Germany for the FCAS. However I see anyway no position for Germany to take the lead in this project.

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## snne

Deino said:


> Surely both, since - at least by the latest news - GB is co-developing the engine for the TFX/MMU which was just joined by Pakistan it's their chance to take a piece of the cake and indeed, such an engine would put them in an even better position to argue with Germany for the FCAS. However I see anyway no position for Germany to take the lead in this project.


My guesstimate is that they are not chosen yet, simply they have just gave an offer together with KALE for the tender, just like how TRMOTOR has done with Ivchenko Progress(?), I think TEI is also interested in this tender and I expect them to also come up with an offer. What is intriguing to me is that this RFP is going to be different to what we are used to from classical RFPs:



> Regarding the RFP, SSB DEMİR shared following information: “Our Request for Proposal (RFP) is different from the classic RFPs. It is actually a study to determine Turkey's domestic engine development capabilities. This RFP aims for potential players in Turkey's national jet engine journey to come together and create a roadmap where all the existing capabilities in Turkey regarding domestic engine production are on the table and create a strategy together. Since Turkey does not have a comprehensive history in this matter, we do not have many experienced engineers and designers. That is why we do not have the luxury of dividing the process into three or four parts, so we must combine our capabilities and work together in a coordinated manner. We have manufacturing capabilities, TEI has demonstrated significant manufacturing capabilities. Further material research and manufacturing techniques are being studied, but the RFP we mentioned is a new step in our national engine development process.”











SSB Issued an RFP for the TF-X Engine Development Project Phase-II


Speaking at the




www.defenceturkey.com






So how is all these offers and capabilities going to merge up together? Are RR, Ivchenko and GE (TEI) all going to work together now? Plus, do not forget the fact that TR Motor is already developing TF-X's APU and ATSS.

I'm certain that the RR-KALE offer is going to win the tender, but how does others end up also taking a piece of the development work?


----------



## prokion

AMCA and IMRH Consortium to have Majority Private Sector ownership: HAL – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org


----------



## RPK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501482644147634178

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## CIA Mole

RPK said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501482644147634178


jai hind


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## vi-va

CIA Mole said:


> jai hind


🙏🙏🙏


----------



## Anik101

*EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing*








EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing - Alpha Defense


By Subodh Sharma and Aman Routray The stealth fighters carry a unique type of sensor that allows them to target the enemy in a passive mode i.e without emitting any radiation. This further ensures the radar cross-section of the fighter jet does not get la-di-da. This unique sensor is called ETOS...




alphadefense.in





Good news....  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501482644147634178

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## Deino

Anik101 said:


> *EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing - Alpha Defense
> 
> 
> By Subodh Sharma and Aman Routray The stealth fighters carry a unique type of sensor that allows them to target the enemy in a passive mode i.e without emitting any radiation. This further ensures the radar cross-section of the fighter jet does not get la-di-da. This unique sensor is called ETOS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphadefense.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good news....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501482644147634178




Are these parts of the actual aircraft or parts related to the manufacturing facility?


----------



## prokion

The fact that manufacturing of AMCA has already started for its prototype means that tejas mk2 protoype would be almost ready



Deino said:


> Are these parts of the actual aircraft or parts related to the manufacturing facility?


actual parts





HAL starts manufacturing activities of TD Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org

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## Anik101

Deino said:


> Are these parts of the actual aircraft or parts related to the manufacturing facility?


Leading-edge flap.

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## Farhan Bohra

Deino said:


> Are these parts of the actual aircraft or parts related to the manufacturing facility?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501612421869277188This is actual fabrication for first PV.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Are these parts of the actual aircraft or parts related to the manufacturing facility?



Apparently from someone in HAL, that is a part of the leading edge slat.

Confirmed by DRDO on Twitter now


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501612421869277188


> Based on the design by ADA & DRDO, the fabrication of Leading edge of AMCA initiated at HAL with special material for 5th gen design. The unit will undergo structural & other testing before putting it on the first prototype. An imp milestone for AMCA.
> @PMOIndia
> 
> @DefenceMinIndia

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## INS_Vikrant

Since AMCA MK1 won't have internal weapons bay can we use enclosed weapons pod like the ones used in Super Hornet BLK 3 to reduce RCS?


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## Farhan Bohra

INS_Vikrant said:


> Since AMCA MK1 won't have internal weapons bay can we use enclosed weapons pod like the ones used in Super Hornet BLK 3 to reduce RCS?


Who said this? ADA Never said Mk1 not going to have weapon bay.


----------



## STREANH

INS_Vikrant said:


> Since AMCA MK1 won't have internal weapons bay can we use enclosed weapons pod like the ones used in Super Hornet BLK 3 to reduce RCS?


Almost every report says it will have an internal weapons bay. Even the models displayed in Aero India 2021 showed them.


----------



## Black Tornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504323024946089984

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## prokion

Sudarshan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504323024946089984


This is incredible

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## Black Tornado

prokion said:


> This is incredible


This buildings has much better and simple design than most of the real estate developers in India and got completed in just 45 days


----------



## prokion

Sudarshan said:


> This buildings has much better and simple design than most of the real estate developers in India and got completed in just 45 days


we should use hybrid construction to build residential building also.

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## Surya 1

Surya 1 said:


> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout.


Indian airforce will not even touch the aircraft like J 20. Magazine has rightly analyzed that It is not like Su 57 or J20. However, Su 57 is far far better than J20 and most maneuverable aircraft ever built.


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## Surya 1

baqai said:


> Jack Of All, Master Of None was specifically said for Indians i think. Why can't you guys just focus on one thing, complete it and take on another task instead of making such tall claims?



It is claimed US magazine not by India. Our recognition comes from most recognized sources. We don't claim like" J20 is F22 killer" etc. while workd do not recognize it.


----------



## Joe Shearer

donkeykong said:


> not happening when India can not even make a bicycle


LOL.

From 47 onwards.

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## Leishangthem

Get real,India will built anything and call it stealth.The fake news culture is too pervasive.

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## GamoAccu

5th gen stealth Indian fighter= Tejas in FLAT BLACK paint and only fly it in the dark.


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## chinasun

Due to insurmountable difficulties, India cancelled its stealth fighter development plan in 2025.


----------



## satyamev

waz said:


> Only five nations in the world can make from scratch a turbofan capable to power and fit a jet fighter, the US, UK, France, Russia and China.
> You simply cannot pledge to make your 'own' stealth fighter if you can't make the power plant i.e. the most important part of any such project.
> This is why many sideline the Gripen, although a great aircraft but with a US engine, so prone to sanctions and not truly Swedish.


the engine is the most important part of a stealth plane ?
thats a reach.
Though India has no chance of making a proper stealth plane in the next 10 years , i mean American proven stealth , not Russian or Chinese stealth. Even the Europeans with their expertise in engines have no stealth plane.


----------



## waz

satyamev said:


> the *engine* is the most important part of a stealth plane ?
> thats a reach.
> Though India has no chance of making a proper stealth plane in the next 10 years , i mean American proven stealth , not Russian or Chinese stealth. Even the Europeans with their expertise in engines have no stealth plane.


Yes it is, go and speak to designers, the firms behind the world’s advanced jets and they will tell you the same.

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## Surya 1

Sainthood 101 said:


> By 2025 is ambitious to say the least



It is planned to fly first time in 2025. May vome in operation by 2028 to 2030.



RangeMaster said:


> Sixth Gen, AI.... Really??
> That too in 2025....Really???
> And that too by India.... Really????
> 
> Smelling what now? Must be good sh*t...?



Some sixth gen features such as AI, auto mid air refueling, swarm drone control, laser etc.


----------



## Surya 1

donkeykong said:


> India won't be able to make a fifth gen fighter for at least another 20years. That would put them more than 30years behind China at least.



China has a great privilege of calling even J20 a fifth generation planes and calling it a F22 killer. It is a different matter that inspite of hsving 5th generation fighter, China imports 4th generation Su 35. China will always be ahead of every country. Chinese copy of BMW scorred 0/5 star safety rating yet China can call it better than BMW etc. Many of the world's top companies has Indian CEOs while non of non Chinese company has any top Chinese CEO yet they can say that they are ahead of Indians in education. I bow down to this Chinese privilege of being always ahead.

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## Surya 1

Surya 1 said:


> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet,




AMCA will be as good as F22 and F35 in stealth but will be much better in aerodynamics. It is a great blending of stealth and aerodynamics. F 35 has poor aerodynamics.


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## jamahir

Surya 1 said:


> AMCA will be as good as F22 and F35 in stealth but will be much better in aerodynamics. It is a great blending of stealth and aerodynamics. F 35 has poor aerodynamics.



I don't usually participate in military equipment threads but I will do here. Since India ( Modi government ) will not bring Russian stealth aircraft and India cannot produce one locally by 2025 the best hope for India will be to have the mainly British aircraft, Tempest, to be manufactured in India :


> On 8 February 2019, it was reported that the MoD and BAE Systems planned to approach the Indian MoD and Air Force regarding collaboration for the design and manufacture of the Tempest.[16] Further talks were planned at Aero India 2021.



The Tempest will have no screens and almost no physical controls inside the cockpit at all. All display and almost all control will be through the Augmented Reality helmet :

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## Trango Towers

jamahir said:


> I don't usually participate in military equipment threads but I will do here. Since India ( Modi government ) will not bring Russian stealth aircraft and India cannot produce one locally by 2025 the best hope for India will be to have the mainly British aircraft, Tempest, to be manufactured in India :
> 
> 
> The Tempest will have no screens and almost no physical controls inside the cockpit at all. All display and almost all control will be through the Augmented Reality helmet-mounted display :


Amazing tech



jamahir said:


> I don't usually participate in military equipment threads but I will do here. Since India ( Modi government ) will not bring Russian stealth aircraft and India cannot produce one locally by 2025 the best hope for India will be to have the mainly British aircraft, Tempest, to be manufactured in India :
> 
> 
> The Tempest will have no screens and almost no physical controls inside the cockpit at all. All display and almost all control will be through the Augmented Reality helmet-mounted display :


Show hiw behind Muslims are in their thinking and tech. Seems our industries have just discovered the calculator

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## Surya 1

jamahir said:


> I don't usually participate in military equipment threads but I will do here. Since India ( Modi government ) will not bring Russian stealth aircraft and India cannot produce one locally by 2025 the best hope for India will be to have the mainly British aircraft, Tempest, to be manufactured in India :
> 
> 
> The Tempest will have no screens and almost no physical controls inside the cockpit at all. All display and almost all control will be through the Augmented Reality helmet-mounted display :




It is better that you generally do not participate in military discussions. Keep continuing that.

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## Indos

Surya 1 said:


> AMCA will be as good as F22 and F35 in stealth but will be much better in aerodynamics. It is a great blending of stealth and aerodynamics. F 35 has poor aerodynamics.



Do you mean this design ?







Compared to F 35


----------



## Black Tornado

Indos said:


> Do you mean this design ?
> 
> View attachment 836969
> 
> 
> Compared to F 35
> 
> View attachment 836970


That’s an old AMCA model


----------



## Surya 1

Indos said:


> Do you mean this design ?
> 
> View attachment 836969
> 
> 
> Compared to F 35
> 
> View attachment 836970



Design refinement work tontinued for years before the design was freezed. See bellow.

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## Indos

Sudarshan said:


> That’s an old AMCA model



Can you bring the newest design, I mean it must be the freeze design right ? Or even the basic design hasnt been freeze yet ?


----------



## Surya 1

When India started making Tejas, No country was ready to believe that India can make such sophisticated plane. When we made it, People changed their opinion. When we said that we will make fiffh generation plane, people were not willing to believe. Now they want to partner in the program.


----------



## jamahir

Trango Towers said:


> Show hiw behind Muslims are in their thinking and tech. Seems our industries have just discovered the calculator



Yes, even when UAE "launched" its Mars orbiter Amal ( Hope ) it was an American designed and assembled spacecraft launched on a Japanese rocket. Goes to show that having lots of money does not mean brain automatically. This is such a disappointment especially given that the Islamic Golden Age which spanned hundreds of years led to so many of the modern machines we use including the computer.

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## conworldus

Surya 1 said:


> When India started making Tejas, No country was ready to believe that India can make such sophisticated plane. When we made it, People changed their opinion. When we said that we will make fiffh generation plane, people were not willing to believe. Now they want to partner in the program.


Who wants to partner with India on this?


----------



## Surya 1

conworldus said:


> Who wants to partner with India on this?



UK.


----------



## GamoAccu

Surya 1 said:


> When India started making Tejas, No country was ready to believe that India can make such sophisticated plane. When we made it, People changed their opinion. When we said that we will make fiffh generation plane, people were not willing to believe. Now they want to partner in the program.



sophisticated plane? Its own Indian Navy rejected that pos.


----------



## Deino

Interesting ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517871612107796480

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## jamahir

Surya 1 said:


> UK.



So in the end we come back to my argument that Britain will sell India the mostly British Tempest aircraft.


----------



## 2ndFarhan__Ullah

jamahir said:


> So in the end we come back to my argument that Britain will sell India the mostly British Tempest aircraft.


Reminds me of the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA affair.
From Wiki:
"IAF has accused HAL of giving away up to half of India's share of the development work. India contributes 15% of the research and development work, but provides half the cost."

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## blain2

> Here's What You Need to Remember: The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.


Mark Episkopos is a cheeky fellow.


----------



## Surya 1

jamahir said:


> So in the end we come back to my argument that Britain will sell India the mostly British Tempest aircraft.



Why should I argue with a prrson sho can not comprehend a simple statement?


----------



## jamahir

Surya 1 said:


> Why should I argue with a prrson sho can not comprehend a simple statement?



And what is your simple statement ?


----------



## Surya 1

jamahir said:


> And what is your simple statement ?



To which you quoted.


----------



## jamahir

Surya 1 said:


> To which you quoted.



If you mean your post# 80 then I replied to it in a simple and rational manner. Unless you have more to say about it. Then say it.


----------



## Bossman

Surya 1 said:


> When India started making Tejas, No country was ready to believe that India can make such sophisticated plane. When we made it, People changed their opinion. When we said that we will make fiffh generation plane, people were not willing to believe. Now they want to partner in the program.


Total BS. India has been making foreign designed aircraft since the 50s and even had its own indigenous design albeit with foreign help i.e. (Marut) so it should have been natural for India to move to domestic drain LCA type jet with majority imported components.


----------



## silverox

In the 1990s, there was a joke in China that a sex worker went to work in a city, and she sent telegrams to colleagues in her hometown. At that time, telegrams were the fastest way to get in touch. Because telegrams are charged according to the number of words, her telegrams are very short, just one sentence, stupid people, more money, come quickly.
Brits know India has a lot of money

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## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> UK.


Why UK?? they have own 6th gen jet named TEMPTEST lol



Surya 1 said:


> When India started making Tejas, No country was ready to believe that India can make such sophisticated plane. When we made it, People changed their opinion. When we said that we will make fiffh generation plane, people were not willing to believe. Now they want to partner in the program.


You should thanks to the west/USA for designing/developing your OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$


----------



## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> Why UK?? they have own 6th gen jet named TEMPTEST lol
> 
> 
> You should thanks to the west/USA for designing/developing your OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$



West or USA? West has many countries. A semi educated troll can't even troll properly.


----------



## CSAW

Surya 1 said:


> West or USA? West has many countries. A semi educated troll can't even troll properly.


Any high tech indigenous effort is a step towards Self Reliance and engineering excellence.

One Learns to Crawl before considering running.

Considering the Huge Technical under taking, Building Blocks & necessary 'Eco system' required to develop such a high end product [Only 3 countries claim to have an operational VLO 5.0th Gen clean sheet product] such as : [Not limited to]

_Flight Control Systems,Wind Tunnel and other R&D testing facilities, Metallurgical advancements in Composites , RAM Coats / baked skins based on Carbon - Epoxy Mats, High Thermal performance Shock resistant Crystals, Lighter High performance Alloys, High end machining with Tolerances to 3rd decimal place, Super Crusing Power Plants manufacturing or Licensed assembly , Next Gen Sensors, Miniaturized Electronics, GaN based Next Gen AESA , SMART Munitions / Long range Ramjet Missiles for internal storage, Associated Programs such as Loyal Wingman, Direct energy weapons provisions, economies of Scale etc etc 

And considering Tejas complete development cycle from the first proposal to Govt up to Tejas MKI _

*What are the realistic chances of achieving the product AT ALL , OR confirming to 2025 target, with a significant or major effort being indigenous in nature *.









How India finalised the design for its indigenous stealth fighter jet


Scientists behind the design explains how the Tejas experience helped




www.theweek.in





Thanks

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## conworldus

CSAW said:


> Any high tech indigenous effort is a step towards Self Reliance and engineering excellence.
> 
> One Learns to Crawl before considering running.
> 
> Considering the necessary Eco system required to develop such a high end product [Only 3 countries claim to have an operational VLO 5.0th Gen clean sheet product] such as
> 
> _Wind Tunnel and other testing facilities, Metallurgical advancements in Composites , Crystals, Lighter High performance Alloys, High end machining with Tolerances to 3rd decimal place, Super Crusing Power Plants manufacturing or Licensed assembly , Next Gen Sensors, Miniaturized Electronics, GaN based Next Gen AESA , Munitions / Missiles for internal storage, economies of Scale etc etc
> 
> And considering Tejas complete development cycle from the first proposal to Govt up to Tejas MKI _
> 
> What are the realistic chances of achieving the product AT ALL , OR confirming to 2025 target, with a significant or major effort being indigenous in nature .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How India finalised the design for its indigenous stealth fighter jet
> 
> 
> Scientists behind the design explains how the Tejas experience helped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theweek.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


Well, it is quite obvious that many do not share Mr. Surya's optimism... well, neither do I.


----------



## Maira La

Surya 1 said:


> AI may be very big thing for you but now AI has found its application in Indian automobiles as well. When It comes to IT and AI, Who else can be ahead of India?



These chamars really think they are something.


----------



## Whirling_dervesh

Surya 1 said:


> *India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025*
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> by Mark Episkopos
> 
> *Here's What You Need to Remember: *The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has its roots in an Indian effort to modernize the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) stock of older fighters, including the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Mirage 2000. The AMCA project has undergone multiple iterations, but the core requirement is for a stealth, single-seat multi-role multirole fighter.
> 
> In 2018, India withdrew from the joint Russian-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to manufacture a new fighter based on Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet. Though the IAF had its share of concrete technical reservations with the FGFA—centered mainly on the Su-57’s stealth performance and the production challenges facing its bespoke Izdeliye 30 engine_—_New Delhi’s decision to withdraw from the FGFA program was not without its political context. Namely, the FGFA partnership gradually became a liability in light of India’s goal to build up its domestic defense industry as part of the government’s 2014 Make in India initiative.
> The AMCA, then, is as much a technical project as it is part of New Delhi’s broader policy effort to reinvest in India’s defense sector. The effort is being led by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and is likewise slated to involve efforts from local contractors.
> 
> The details have shifted somewhat in the past decade, but here is where the AMCA project currently stands. As a fifth-generation fighter with “sixth-generation characteristics,” the AMCA will boast a very low radar cross-section for superior stealth performance, integration of certain AI-based systems for streamlined operation, and an advanced cockpit display with a touch screen interface. The AMCA’s avionics suite will be headlined by a large suite of advanced radars and electronic warfare systems.
> Steven Spielberg Sells His 282-Foot Yacht, Most Recently Asking €131 MillionMansion Global
> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wat...ht-in_paid_01012021_cnamkt-vod&obOrigUrl=true
> 
> 
> The AMCA will also reportedly feature thrust-vectoring engines for superior maneuverability, an impressive feat considering all the other advanced technologies being packed into it. Little is known about the AMCA’s armaments, which reportedly will be carried entirely in an internal weapons bay configuration to maximize stealth performance and deep penetration capability. The fighter will feature Beyond-Visual Range missile targeting capability. In addition to the usual crop of air-to-air missiles, standoff weapons, and guided bombs, the fighter will also reportedly support directed-energy weapon (DEW) systems; it is unknown precisely what form the fighter’s rumored DEW capability will take.
> The AMCA seems more similar to Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet than to Russia’s Su-57 jet or China’s J-20 jet, in that it’s designed as a role-flexible fighter capable of executing a wide range of missions depending on loadout. The AMCA appears to be a complement rather than a replacement, for the IAF’s air superiority fighters, serving as a flexible force multiplier with superior penetration capabilities.
> 
> The IAF’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the AMCA is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India is on a Mission to Build a Stealth Fighter by 2025
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s delivery timeline is liable to change in the coming years as the project moves further along, but the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is currently expected to make its maiden flight by 2025, with serial production to begin by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org



Yes the tejas , so stealthy


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## Surya 1

AMCA will be Mach 2 Fighter, rollout in 2026: GD AMCA Neeli – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org





Top speed to be 2600 km, combat range to be 1640 km, Super cruise anove mach 1.6. To be fastes amongst fifth generation fighter. To be roll out in 2026.

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## Sayfullah

Indians making such a 10000 gen fighter that it’s not even called a fighter anymore. It’s “gighter” now 😎

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## Surya 1

Project to be 9% of US fifth generation planes. Dill have AI, DEW, GAN based radar.


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## Raj-Hindustani

Surya 1 said:


> Project to be 9% of US fifth generation planes. Dill have AI, DEW, GAN based radar.



Need to hold our horses.

Too many projects are flying - here and there.

HAL Mk1a, HAL Tejas Mk2 and AMCA....

they need to stick on the timeline........ Probability they will complete the job for HAL Mk1a, and HAL Tejas Mk2.... before 2026

but highly doubt on AMCA..

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## Mrc

It will be 1000 gen fighter


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## shayyman

Make more such threads to enlighten us on ground breaking Bharti discoveries:

AMCA will be a fighter jet with 2 wings and 2 engines for ultimate balance 
AMCA will have space of 2 pilots in it to talk to each other because one can get bored
AMCA will have a cockpit also from which pilot can see outside view
AMCA will have 3 tyres for landing and a jack to repair punctured tyres
AMCA will also have a hole to put patrole in it

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## Indos

Surya 1 said:


> AMCA will be Mach 2 Fighter, rollout in 2026: GD AMCA Neeli – Indian Defence Research Wing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top speed to be 2600 km, combat range to be 1640 km, Super cruise anove mach 1.6. To be fastes amongst fifth generation fighter. To be roll out in 2026.



KF 21/IFX also uses the same engine with AMCA, I think the speed will be not much different,














KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.


KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...




www.koreaaero.com

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## Black Tornado

IDRW is not considered a trustworthy source in India


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## Princeps Senatus

Ah yes AMCA with 2x F414 engines will be faster than F-22 which has 2x F119

Such things are only possible due to vedic technology (gau mutra)

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## Surya 1

Sudarshan said:


> IDRW is not considered a trustworthy source in India




This not an opinion piece. They have quoted yhe scientists involved in design.


----------



## migflug

HAL DRDO has the habit of exaggerating its claims and vomiting unattainable timelines. What I hope is we can at least make a PD by 2026 and hopefully SP by 2030 and even this is an extremely aggressive timeline considering both ADA/HAL don't have any prior experience in designing a twin-engine plane that to a stealth one.



Maira La said:


> These chamars really think they are something.


Are you using Hindu caste as slang?? I thought Muslims were beyond these caste discriminations. I guess you can take out the religion from a desi but can't take out their caste obsession. Lol

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## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> West or USA? West has many countries. A semi educated troll can't even troll properly.


LOL can i tell you how many components in your mighty OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$ are foreign made, west i mean western EU, you're basically trolling yourself


----------



## Bossman

Surya 1 said:


> This not an opinion piece. They have quoted yhe scientists involved in design.


Idiots believing in idiots

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## Surya 1

Sudarshan said:


> IDRW is not considered a trustworthy source in India




This mot an opinion piece. They have quoted yhe scientists involved in design


Bossman said:


> Idiots believing in idiots



Idiots believkng the Idiots who says that it won't happen.



Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 837372
> 
> 
> Indians making such a 10000 gen fighter that it’s not even called a fighter anymore. It’s “gighter” now 😎



Loosers have one role left now. Mocking. They have been mocking Tejas for years. Meanwhile, Tejas became top class light fighter.

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## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> LOL can i tell you how many components in your mighty OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$ are foreign made, west i mean western EU, you're basically trolling yourself



You have all the rights to say this after buying planes in fly away concition and copying russian design and engines.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> You have all the rights to say this after buying planes in fly away concition and copying russian design and engines.


We are not claiming that JF-17 is our fighter and do you know what's JF stand for, I can tell you


----------



## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> We are not claiming that JF-17 is our fighter and do you know what's JF stand for, I can tell you



We have lot more make in India contdnt in MKI than pakistan has in JF 17 yet we don't say it a joint fighter.

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## Hephaestus

CSAW said:


> *What are the realistic chances of achieving the product AT ALL , OR confirming to 2025 target, with a significant or major effort being indigenous in nature *.


0 - 2 % anything that HAL & ADA achieve by 2025 will be a miracle. Sad to say this but that is the truth.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> We have lot more make in India contdnt in MKI than pakistan has in JF 17 yet we don't say it a joint fighter.



what Indian content in MKI can you tell us?? you're in facesaving mode


----------



## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> what Indian content in MKI can you tell us?? you're in facesaving mode



Full plane except few parts is made in India by HAL. Body, LRUs including engine , Electronics etc.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> Full plane except few parts is made in India by HAL. Body, LRUs including engine , Electronics etc.


imported from Russia yeah yeah whatever, Your Mighty OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$ smosa has 70% foreign components according to your own (Indian) department


----------



## Bin Laden

IMO we should pause the thread here and reopen in 2025, cuz its not going anywhere constructive.


----------



## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> imported from Russia yeah yeah whatever, Your Mighty OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE Tej@$$ smosa has 70% foreign components according to your own (Indian) department



It seems that you have added russian components used in JF 17 to arrive at 70 pc figure.


----------



## GamoAccu

AMCA will be powered by high octane cow dung rocket fuel.

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## Indos

Surya 1 said:


> This not an opinion piece. They have quoted *yhe scientists involved in design.*



That make the case is even worst

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## Surya 1

Indos said:


> That make the case is even worst



I am not here to convince anyone. We are among top nation so far as Nuclear , space and defense technology is concern. So far as are our beloved Pakistani members on PDF is concern, they limited their role to dfnial and mocking. Nobody takes them seriously.

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## Surya 1

Princeps Senatus said:


> Ah yes AMCA with 2x F414 engines will be faster than F-22 which has 2x F119
> 
> Such things are only possible due to vedic technology (gau mutra)



You missed out couple of vital parameters named T/W ratio and drag. Thanks god you didn’t say that how can a single engine F16 can fly faster than Boing 707 with 4 big engines ?

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## shayyman

Surya 1 said:


> I am not here to convince anyone. We are among top nation so far as Nuclear , space and defense technology is concern. So far as are our beloved Pakistani members on PDF is concern, they limited their role to dfnial and mocking. Nobody takes them seriously.


With such idiotic arguments you can only convince bhakts. lol

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## Surya 1

shayyman said:


> With such idiotic arguments you can only convince bhakts. lol



But I don't see any support for you. Those radicals who were supporting you are missing. It seems that they have left you alone.

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## Wood

Good luck to the program. Hope to see this progress in schedule


----------



## INS_Vikrant

Indos said:


> KF 21/IFX also uses the same engine with AMCA, I think the speed will be not much different,
> 
> View attachment 837377
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.
> 
> 
> KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.koreaaero.com





Princeps Senatus said:


> Ah yes AMCA with 2x F414 engines will be faster than F-22 which has 2x F119



Incorrect title, the article is talking about AMCA MK2 which won't be using GE F414 Engines but a new 125 kn thrust engine that will be developed with foreign collaboration (either safran or rolls royce). @Surya 1 bro correct the title to avoid confusion.

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## prokion

INS_Vikrant said:


> Incorrect title, the article is talking about AMCA MK2 which won't be using GE F414 Engines but a new 125 kn thrust engine that will be developed with foreign collaboration (either safran or rolls royce). @Surya 1 bro correct the title to avoid confusion.


the amca mk1 will run at mach 1.8 like kfx


----------



## Indos

INS_Vikrant said:


> Incorrect title, the article is talking about AMCA MK2 which won't be using GE F414 Engines but a new 125 kn thrust engine that will be developed with foreign collaboration (either safran or rolls royce). @Surya 1 bro correct the title to avoid confusion.



Yup, it may be the case, but even the engine prototype hasnt been made yet, so it is too early to boast something like that


----------



## NA71

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 837372
> 
> 
> Indians making such a 10000 gen fighter that it’s not even called a fighter anymore. It’s “gighter” now 😎


 will it fly or speed on simulator panel?


----------



## Bossman

Surya 1 said:


> Idiots believkng the Idiots who says that it won't happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Loosers have one role left now. Mocking. They have been mocking Tejas for years. Meanwhile, Tejas became top class light fighter.


Past performance is y if usually a good predictor of the future

Tejas a top class fighter? By which standard? Compared to which other light fighter. How many squadrons are fully operational? I understand the production rate is still three planes per year.


----------



## Surya 1

Bossman said:


> Past performance is y if usually a good predictor of the future
> 
> Tejas a top class fighter? By which standard? Compared to which other light fighter. How many squadrons are fully operational? I understand the production rate is still three planes per year.



Compared to any other fighter in light class. It is recognized by many top class journals. Whose opinion doesn't count can say snything.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> It seems that you have added russian components used in JF 17 to arrive at 70 pc figure.


Don't troll, we are not super power like you


----------



## Surya 1

White and Green with M/S said:


> Don't troll, we are not super power like you



I agree with that.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> I agree with that.


What do you agree that you're superpower, than in which world do you live in   you're just puppet of west/USA to contain China

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## RescueRanger

Will it be better than Samosa?


----------



## Bossman

Surya 1 said:


> Compared to any other fighter in light class. It is recognized by many top class journals. Whose opinion doesn't count can say snything.


There is no fighter in its class so it is obviously best in its own class


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

RescueRanger said:


> Will it be better than Samosa?


Depends how much we can steal from project Azm

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## no smoking

Can we please close this thread until the prototype comes out?
It is really ridiculous to see 2 groups of people arguing around a PPT or a model.

You simply can't judge a jet plane based on its PPT picture.
Indian scientists are making it worse, their model has been evolving with the world fashion like a school girl chasing the latest hat.

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## Surya 1

Bossman said:


> There is no fighter in its class so it is obviously best in its own class



A great knowledge of figher plane on exhibition once again. I am awestruck.

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## White and Green with M/S

Surya 1 said:


> A great knowledge of figher plane on exhibition once again. I am awestruck.


J-20/F-22/F35 are VLO design whereas Su-57 LO design where are your AMCA and tell me it will be EVLO (extreme very low) design


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## Surya 1

Bossman said:


> There is no fighter in its class so it is obviously best in its own class



A great knowledge of figher plane on exhibition once again. I zm awstuck


shayyman said:


> With such idiotic arguments you can only convince bhakts. lol



You are exposed.


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## shayyman

Surya 1 said:


> A great knowledge of figher plane on exhibition once again. I zm awstuck
> 
> 
> You are exposed.


oops lol.


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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547173814668345352
Titanium to be supplied by local firm Midhani.

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## aswin

Two banks of the River said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547173814668345352
> Titanium to be supplied by local firm Midhani.


Midhani is also a govt entity.

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## Faxapis

aswin said:


> Midhani is also a govt entity.



MIdhani is a listed PSU.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

DRDO has not yet finalized the Engine partner for AMCA​








5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: Talks with international engine manufacturers at nascent stage


Final call on the partner will be taken by the Defence Ministry after weighing the offers put forward by engine manufacturers regarding Transfer of Technology and development costs



indianexpress.com


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## Skull and Bones

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> DRDO has not yet finalized the Engine partner for AMCA​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: Talks with international engine manufacturers at nascent stage
> 
> 
> Final call on the partner will be taken by the Defence Ministry after weighing the offers put forward by engine manufacturers regarding Transfer of Technology and development costs
> 
> 
> 
> indianexpress.com



Mk 1 will use GE 414, the engine partner here is for Mk 2 and beyond.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552259229569785856

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## kopotov

Possibly the FINAL design and Model of the AMCA. 

You can see the DSI intakes and IRST.

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555905087800651776


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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555927493441228801

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## Deino

kopotov said:


> Possibly the FINAL design and Model of the AMCA.
> 
> You can see the DSI intakes and IRST.




But also still that more than strange kink in the horizontal tail's leading edge!?


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## MirageBlue

kopotov said:


> Possibly the FINAL design and Model of the AMCA.
> 
> You can see the DSI intakes and IRST.



It must be the final wind tunnel model sent to CALSPAN as was mentioned by the guy who posted it.

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## migflug

MirageBlue said:


> It must be the final wind tunnel model sent to CALSPAN as was mentioned by the guy who posted it.


Not as stealthy as we wanted due to IRST, perhaps we are going Korean way with iterative versions(MK2 as confirmed by many). Hope we get these versions as quickly as possible.


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