# Pakistan Army APC Inventory



## Tin Man

APC M113 A1/A2


APCs rebuilt at HRF (M) are a symbol of quality and skill par excellence. Complete rebuild of APCs back to its original manufacturers specifications entails elaborate rebuild facilities, professionalism and highest quality standards which have been achieved with the help of sophisticated machinery, skilled manpower and latest test equipment / procedures. Most economical rebuild is accomplished through *macro reclamation, sound engineering management systems and computerized inventory control*. The quality product rolled out is comparable with brand new APCs. 

M113 A2 MK-1


Armored Personnel Carrier APC M113 A2 MK-1 belongs to the family of most widely used combat vehicles in the world today. The economical upgrading of M113 A2 is highly suitable to meet battlefield challenges now and into the future.* An improved cooling system has enhanced engine life whereas greater mobility and better ride characteristics are the result of improved suspension system currently available i*n APC M113 A2 MK - 1. *The M113 A2 MK - 1 has a 265 HP Detroit Diesel Corporation (DDC) 6V53T turbocharged diesel engine replacing the DDC 6V53 212 HP engine found in earlier M113s*. *Teamed with the new engine is an Allison TX 100 - 1A transmission. Survivability is enhanced through use of external fuel tanks.* Various forms of bolt-on armor can be added to increase the Armour protection of the vehicle. 

APC Talha







Heavy Industries Taxila [HIT] has indigenously designed and manufactured APC Talha, which is an all terrain, amphibious infantry support vehicle with *12.7 mm Machine Gun as its main armament.* APC Talha has been designed and manufactured by HIT with *Ukrainian engines*. It is all terrain, amphibious infantry support vehicle with 12.7mm machine gun as its main armament. *Survivability has been enhanced through use of external fuel tanks. Various forms of armour can be added for protection of the vehicle.*

APC Saad


APC Saad with a *350-400 Horse Power engine*, which conforms to the dictates of future battlefield environments







APC (RBS-70) Mouz

Mouz is a Talha based APC Carrying *RBS-70 Weapon System along with its crew of 4 persons*







Baktar Shikan Maaz

Maaz is a Talha based APC carrying Baktar Shikan Weapon System along with its crew of 4 persons. 






Logistic Vehicle Al-Qaswa

It is one of the variant of APC capable of enhancing the logistic support to operational echelons. *It can be used for carrying fuel, ration, ammunition and supplies across all types of terrain.* The vehicle platform can also be used for other adaptations such as weapon station, refrigeration unit, radar, ambulance, etc. 






Infantry Fighting Vehicle Al-Hamza

This vehicle has been developed with a *Chinese one-man turret and 25 mm cannon. *

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/images/m113-al-hamza-image01.jpg

Recovery Vehicle Al-Hadeed

The maintenance / recovery vehicle is a Talha APC that has been modified by installing a crane *which can lift and place heavy loads*. It also has a *hydraulic winch with a fair lead assembly for retrieving disabled vehicles*. A *crew of three* can operate the vehicle and its equipment. It has *mini workshop including lathe, welding plant, compressor, grinder, battery charger, towing and illumination equipment*

UR-416

The UR-416 is a four-wheeled *armored personnel carrier *developed as a private venture by *Rheinstahl Maschinenbau *(this company has changed names on numerous occasions, in 2000 becoming Rheinmetall Landsysteme). This vehicle was developed and was manufactured by Thyssen Maschinenbau AG; Witten-Annen, Federal Republic of Germany. Daimler-Benz did some of the original design work and was the principal subcontractor.

Some support came from the Federal Republic of Germany's Ministry of Defense and various German internal security and police forces. The first prototype being completed in 1965. production commenced in 1969. By the time production had been completed, a total of 1,030 UR-416 series armored vehicles had been built, most for the export market. The last production model of the UR-416 was called the UR-416 M. 

The UR-416 is *essentially the chassis of a Mercedes-Benz UNIMOG (4 × 4) cross-country vehicle fitted with an armored body.The hull of the UR-416 M is of all-welded steel armor construction which protects the crew against small arms fire, shell splinters and anti-personnel mines. The driver is seated at the front of the vehicle on the left, just behind the engine, with the vehicle commander to his right. Both have a large bulletproof front and side window for improved visibility. Armored flaps covering the commander and driver front windows are lowered by gas pressure. The side windows are protected by swivelling armored flaps. Forward observation is maintained by two single day periscopes in the forward part of the roof. *






The Mercedes-Benz OM 352 six-cylinder water-cooled diesel engine develops 120 hp and is coupled to a manual gearbox which has six forward and two reverse gears. For normal road use only the rear axle is engaged but for cross-country travel the front axle is also engaged and when travelling across very rough country the front and rear axle differential locks are engaged.*The eight fully equipped troops are seated to the rear of the commander and driver, three down each side of the hull facing outwards and two at the back facing the rear. Each man has an individual seat, which can be folded upwards. *The vehicle can be equipped as a police vehicle with (e.g. Mine-sweeping shield, search headlight) or more militarily (e.g. Tire pressure adjustment system, NBC protection facility, night-vision devices) additional devices to be modular equipped, and with turrets with machine guns or a *20mm-cannon can be used.*

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## Tin Man

*Update if you have anything to add please. *


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## Tin Man

BTR - 70

The BTR-70 armored personnel carrier is a further development of the previous BTR-60PB. Vehicle entered service with Soviet army in 1972, but was first public revealed only in 1980.

The BTR-70 is longer comparing with it's predecessor. *Vehicle is fitted with two hatches from each side between second and third road wheels. This hatch is intended for troops to enter and leave this vehicle.* Alternatively troops enter and leave through the roof hatches.

This APC is better protected than it's predecessor. It is fitted with an *automatic fire suppression system, as well as an NBC protection system.*
The BTR-70 armored personnel carrier is fitted with a complete *turret of the BTR-60PB. It is fitted with a 14.5-mm machine gun and coaxial 7.62-mm MG.*
Vehicle has a crew of three and can carry 7 fully equipped troops. Troops enter and leave through roof hatches and side access doors, located between the front and rear sets of wheels. The BTR-70 can be easily recognized by this triangular-shaped side entrance. A number of firing ports and associated vision blocks are provided for the troops..

On of the improvements of the BTR-70 over the *BTR-60PB are two slightly more powerful petrol engines. Vehicle is powered by GAZ-66 petrol engines, developing 120 horsepower each. Engines are mounted on a single frame and are located at the rear of the hull. **When one engine is damaged, it can be remotely disconnected and vehicle keeps running on the remaining unit.* The BTR-70 is fitted with a central tyre inflation system as standard. This APC is fully *amphibious and is propelled on water by two waterjets.*
_ Despite all improvements the BTR-70 still had a number of shortcomings, including relatively light armor protection, poor means of entry and exit and a pair of petrol engines_.



*Variants*



Improved BTR-70, first observed in 1986. It features improved turret with higher angle of elevation and smoke dischargers;

some BTR-70 in Afghanistan were fitted with a 30-mm AGS-17 grenade launcher;

BTR-70 Kh chemical reconnaissance vehicle;

BTR-70 MS communication vehicle;

BTR-70 KShM command and control vehicle;

BTR-70 MBP artillery command vehicle;

BREM armored recovery vehicle;

SPR-2 is a possible radar jamming vehicle;

BTR-80 armored personnel carrier;

some BTR-70 were fitted with a complete turret of the BTR-80.

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## Tin Man

*Anyone has info on the "scorpion"?*


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## Tin Man

*IMAGE SOURCED FROM A PAST THREAD.*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/28589-pakistan-tracked-apc-design.html

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## bd_4_ever

Impressive APCs i must say....btw, how many APCs does Pak Army have in its inventory....any idea....??


Cheers!!!


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## sohailbarki

Recovery Vehicle &#8216;Al-Hadeed&#8217;

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## Super Falcon

All Looks Very Similar we dont have anything like BTR 80 or Stryker which now every Armed forces uses across the globe Wheeled APC are better than Tracked Both in Speed and in Agility

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Cage armoured M-113A3




RBS-Muaz





AL FAHD IFV are also in service

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## Last Hope

Isint Bakhtar Shkian an 'anti-tank' ??


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## Haseebullah

bd_4_ever said:


> Impressive APCs i must say....btw, how many APCs does Pak Army have in its inventory....any idea....??
> 
> 
> Cheers!!!



Enough!

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## Tin Man

proudpakistanistudent said:


> Isint Bakhtar Shkian an 'anti-tank' ??



Yes and developed indigenously with ToT.


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## Super Falcon

All Looks Very Similar we dont have anything like BTR 80 or Stryker which now every Armed forces uses across the globe Wheeled APC are better than Tracked Both in Speed and in Agility


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAAD




......
Talha

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## Super Falcon

Stryker is a family of eight-wheel-drive combat vehicles, transportable in a C-130 aircraft, being built for the US Army by General Dynamics Land Systems - Canada (formerly General Motors Defense) and General Dynamics Land Systems Division of USA.

Stryker is based on the GDLS Canada LAV III 8&#215;8 light armoured vehicle, in service since early 2001. The LAV III is itself a version of the Piranha III built by Mowag of Switzerland, now part of GDLS - Europe.


Fabrication and final assembly of the vehicles is being shared among plants at Anniston, Alabama; Lima, Ohio; and London, Ontario.

The Stryker brigade combat team (SBCT) combines the capacity for rapid deployment with survivability and tactical mobility. The Stryker vehicle enables the team to manoeuvre in close and urban terrain, provide protection in open terrain and transport infantry quickly to critical battlefield positions. The eight-wheeled Stryker is the first new military vehicle to enter service into the United States Army since the Abrams tank in the 1980s.

The contract for the US Army's interim armoured vehicle (IAV) was awarded in November 2000. The vehicles form the basis of six brigade combat teams. The contract requirement covers the supply of 2,131 vehicles. Deliveries of Stryker infantry carriers began in April 2002. A seventh SBCT has subsequently been planned and the requirement raised to 2,691. To October 2009, the US Army's seven separate Stryker brigades had received 2,988 new Stryker vehicles.

"Stryker is a family of eight-wheel-drive combat vehicles, transportable in a C-130."
Initial operational test and evaluation began in May 2003 with the Arrowhead Lightning II exercise. Since 2003, the vehicles have undergone over six million miles in service through two Operational Iraqi Freedom rotations, demonstrating a combined fleet operational readiness rate of 96&#37;. In November 2003, the Stryker entered operational service with the US Army, with the first Stryker SBCT, 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, following its deployment to Iraq. The second SBCT, 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division, was deployed to Iraq in September 2004. The third SBCT, the 172nd, deployed in July 2005.

Contracts for 328 vehicles to form the 4th Brigade were placed in March / June 2004 for delivery during 2005 and 2006, and for 423 vehicles for the 5th Brigade in February 2005 with deliveries in 2006-07. 306 Strykers were ordered in April 2006, 103 in July 2006 and 109 in October 2006. 615 Stryker vehicles were ordered in August 2008 for delivery by 2011. The Pennsylvania Army National Guard's 56th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, the only National Guard SBCT, deployed to Iraq in February 2009. The 5th Stryker Brigade is scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan in summer 2009, the first SBCT to do so.

The first US Air Force Stryker unit made its first deployment in Iraq in August 2005.

In March 2009, a contract worth $4.8m to produce 805 Stryker driver enhancement kits was awarded to JWF Defense Systems by General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada. The deliveries were completed between April and June 2009.

On 9 October 2009, the US Army TACOM signed a contract worth $647m with General Dynamics Land Systems for the supply of 352 Stryker vehicles. The deliveries are expected in July 2010.

Order and deliveries

In December 2008, the Iraqi Government requested the foreign military sale (FMS) of 400 Stryker infantry carrier vehicles.

During March 2009, the Stryker medical evaluation vehicle (MEV), the new ambulance variant was deployed by the US Army. According to an army transformation strategy, 30 MEVs were delivered to the 3rd Infantry Division's 3rd Heavy Brigade Combat Team to be deployed in the Middle East. The vehicle was on display at the Garfield Circle, Washington DC on March 23-24, 2009.

In July 2009, the US Army TACOM awarded a contract worth $55.2m to General Dynamics Land Systems to reset 330 Stryker infantry combat vehicles. Under this contract, the Stryker vehicles returning from Operation Iraqi Freedom will be serviced, repaired and modified, returning them to a like-new condition before further deployment.

Stryker variants

Stryker variants include the M1126 infantry carrier vehicle (ICV) and the M1128 mobile gun system (MGS).

"Stryker vehicles are to form the basis of six brigade combat teams by 2008."
There are eight configurations of the ICV include M1135 nuclear, biological, chemical reconnaissance vehicle (NBC RV); M1134 anti-tank guided missile (ATGM); M1133 medical evacuation vehicle (MEV); M1129 mortar carrier (MC); M1132 engineer squad vehicle (ESV); M1130 command vehicle (CV); M1131 fire support vehicle (FSV); and the M1127 reconnaissance vehicle (RV). They have parts commonality and self-recovery abilities and are equipped with a central tire-inflation system.

The reconnaissance vehicle is fitted with the Raytheon long-range advanced scout surveillance system (LRAS3). The system includes a second-generation horizontal technology initiative (HTI) thermal imager, day TV and eyesafe laser rangefinder. The US Army is to enhance the system by lengthening the sensor mast to 10m, increasing the range to 10km.

The mortar carrier (MCV-B) entered service in August 2005. The MCV-B's 120mm mortar is mounted inside the vehicle and fires through doors that swing open at the top of the vehicle. As well as the mounted mortar, the vehicle carries a second mortar which has to be unloaded before firing. The vehicle has a digital fire control system and a crew of five.

The first of 17 LRIP nuclear, biological, chemical reconnaissance vehicle (NBC RV) variants was delivered in December 2005. The system can collect and automatically integrate contamination information with vehicle navigation and meteorological sensor data and then transmit digital warning messages to other forces.

The US Army placed a contract for 33 medical evacuation vehicles (MEV) in September 2007. The MEV can accommodate up to six patients and a medical team. Deliveries are to be completed by 2010.

Infantry carrier vehicle

The Stryker is a full-time four-wheel drive, selectively eight-wheel drive, armoured vehicle weighing approximately 19t. The vehicle can attain speeds of 62mph on metalled roads and has a maximum range of 312 miles.

The basic infantry carrier vehicle (ICV) provides armoured protection for the two-man crew and a squad of nine infantry soldiers. The basic hard steel armour is augmented by applique panels of lightweight ceramic / composite armour produced by a team led by IBD / Deisenroth Engineering of Germany.

The armour provides integral all-round 14.5mm protection against machine gun rounds, mortar and artillery fragments. In Iraq, in January 2004, Stryker vehicles were outfitted with a 'cage' of slat armour, which encircles the vehicle about 18in from the main body, as protection against rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs).

"The armour provides integral 14.5mm protection against machine gun rounds, mortar and artillery fragments."
In March 2005, United Defense (now BAE Systems Land and Armaments) was awarded a contract to provide 289 full-vehicle add-on reactive armour kits for the Stryker, to be delivered between September 2005 and October 2006.

The ICV has a protector remote weapon station, from Kongsberg Protech of Norway, with a universal soft mount cradle, which can mount either a 0.50-caliber M2 machine gun, MK19 40mm grenade launcher or MK240 7.62mm machine gun. It is also armed with four M6 smoke grenade launchers.

In August 2005, Kongsberg awarded BAE Systems a contract to supply the TIM1500 640&#215;480 uncooled thermal imaging camera for the remote weapon station.

The vehicle's commander has an FBCB2 (force XXI battle command brigade and below) digital communications system that allows communication between vehicles through text messaging and a map network, as well as with the battalion. The map shows the position of all vehicles on the battlefield and the commander can mark the position of enemy forces on the map which can then be seen by other commanders. FBCB2, 'the tactical internet', includes the Raytheon AN/TSQ-158 enhanced position location reporting system (EPLRS).

The Stryker driver has three M-17 periscopes and a DRS Technologies AN/VAS-5 driver's vision enhancer (DVE). The vehicle commander has seven M45 periscopes and a thermal imager display with video camera.

In February 2009, BAE Systems was awarded a production contract for the Check-6 thermal imaging driver's rear-view camera (DRVC) system for the Stryker ICV. The system is fitted to the vehicle's taillight housing. Deliveries began in April 2009.

Stryker mobile gun system

Eight pre-production Stryker mobile gun systems were delivered to the US Army between July 2002 and March 2003. Low-rate initial production (LRIP) of 72 additional mobile gun variants is underway at General Dynamics Anniston facility. The first was delivered in December 2005.

The MGS entered service with the US Army in May 2007, with the first operational deployment to Iraq with the 4th brigade, 2nd Division. By November 2007, three Stryker brigades had received the MGS. A production contract for 62 vehicles was placed in August 2008.

Stryker MGS was selected by the Canadian Army, which planned to acquire 66 systems to replace Leopard 1 tanks. However it was decided to acquire surplus Leopard 2 tanks instead.

The Stryker mobile gun system variant consists of the basic vehicle with a General Dynamics Land Systems fully stabilised shoot-on-the-move low-profile turret. The turret is armed with a M68A1E4 105mm cannon with muzzle brake and an M2 0.50-calibre commander's machine gun.

The Stryker mobile gun system can fire 18 rounds of 105mm main gun ammunition, 400 rounds of 0.50-calibre ammunition and 3,400 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition. Curtiss-Wright Corp's Vista Controls supplies the fully automated ammunition loading and replenishing system. Two M6 smoke grenade launchers are also fitted.

"The turret is armed with a M68A1E4 105mm cannon with muzzle brake and an M2 0.50-calibre commander's machine gun."
The mobile gun system has the same C4ISR communications and driver's vision equipment as the ICV, but the gunner has three periscopes and a compact modular sight with dual field of view day and thermal channels. The MGS also has detectors for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

An advantage to the brigade combat teams in having the mobile gun vehicle of the same Stryker family of vehicles is the commonality across the entire capability and the reduced logistics requirement.

The Stryker mobile gun does not require a track-vehicle mechanic as would be required for example for the deployment of an M-8 mobile armoured gun system.

Transportation

Stryker can be transported on the ground using trucks or by air on C-17, C-5 and C-130 aircraft. The C-5 and C-17 aircraft can carry seven and four Strykers respectively.

The C-130H can fly safely carrying a maximum 38,000lb load for up to 1,000nm. The Stryker's weight, 36,240lb, and size are within the payload limit of the C-130H. The C-130 can operate from smaller airfields in more remote locations. All configurations of the Stryker can disembark from the C-130 in combat-ready status







The BTR-80 8x8 armoured personnel carrier, manufactured by the Arzamas machinery Construction Plant of Nizhny Novgorod, Russia, is intended to carry personnel on the battlefield and provide close fire support. It can also carry out reconnaissance, combat support and patrol missions.

It entered service with the Russian Army in the late 1980s and has since been used in a number of military conflicts, including UN peacekeeping operations.


The vehicle is in production and the Russian Army ordered 100 in 2006. The vehicle is also in service with the Ukraine and has been sold to Hungary, Turkey, Macedonia and Bangladesh.

"The fully amphibious BTR-80 is equipped to carry ten personnel."
BTR-80 variants and developments

The following vehicles have also been developed from the basic BTR-80 armoured personnel carrier: BREM-K armoured recovery and repair vehicle; BMM armoured ambulance vehicle; RkhM-4-01 radiation and chemical reconnaissance vehicle; and 2S23 Nona SVK 120mm self-propelled gun, in service with the Russian Army since 1990.

An enlarged version, the BTR-90 with improved armour protection, has been developed. The BTR-90 has a 30mm 2A42 automatic cannon and is capable of mounting a launcher for the Konkurs anti-tank missile system. BTR-90 entered production in May 2008.

In July 2005, Bumar, a Polish company, was awarded a contract by the Iraqi Ministry of Defence for 98 reconditioned, ex-Hungarian Army BTR-80 APCs. The first three vehicles, which were newly built by Nikolayev of Ukraine, were delivered in September 2006. Delivery of the reconditioned vehicles will begin in 2007.

Bangladesh ordered a further 60 BTR-80 APC vehicles for use in UN peacekeeping missions. Deliveries completed in April 2006.

Fully amphibious design

The fully amphibious BTR-80 is equipped to carry ten personnel: commander, driver/mechanic, gunner and seven troops. There are seven ball-swivel firing ports in the vehicle hull, four on the right and three on the left side of the vehicle, as well as ports in the upper hatches of the firing compartment. The hatches have armoured doors and are situated on both sides of the vehicle.

The BTR-80 is fitted with NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) protection system, automatic firefighting system, camouflage devices, bilge pumps and a self-recovery winch.

Armament

BTR-80 personnel carrier has a BPU-1 turret machine gun mount, which houses 14.5mm KPTV and 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine guns.

"BTR-80 is capable of a speed of 80km/h on paved road and 9km/h when afloat."
The 14mm gun has a full 360&#176; traverse with an elevation of 60&#176; for improved effectiveness in air defence. The range of this gun is 2km. The range of the 7.62mm gun is 1.5km.

Ammunition load for the KPVT machine gun is 500 rounds, with 2,000 rounds for the PKT machine gun.

There are six smoke grenade dischargers, three fitted either side of the main gun.

Propulsion

The vehicle is powered by a 7,403 four-stroke, eight cylinder liquid cooled diesel engine, which provides 260hp. It is capable of a maximum speed of 80km/h on paved road and 9km/h when afloat. Fuel endurance range is 600km on roads.

BTR-80K commander APC

The BTR-80K is intended to enable the infantry battalion commander to command sub-units and maintain communications with headquarters. It is based on the BTR-80, with the same 14.5mm and 7.62mm machine guns, but has a number of extra systems necessary for this mission.

These include: two VHF-173 radio sets, antenna device set for UHF antenna, IFF automatic interrogator, TNA-4 navigational aid, PAB- 2M artillery periscope aiming ring, TNP-165A night vision sight and TSh-4 interphone headsets with GVSh-T-13 head and chest set.

"BTR-80 has a BPU-1 turret machine gun mount, which houses 14.5mm KPTV and 7.62mm PKT machine guns."
BTR-80A/80S

On the BTR-80A (in service since 1994) and BTR-80S, the standard BTR-80 turret is replaced with a modular armaments system. The BTR-80A is fitted with a 30mm 2A72 automatic gun and 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun.

The 30mm gun has a maximum firing rate of 330 rounds a minute and can fire AP-T (armour piercing - tracer), HEF-I (high-explosive fragmentation - incendiary) and HE-T (high-explosive - tracer) rounds.

The BTR-80S is equipped with 14mm KPVT machine gun and 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun. For both these modifications, the armament system can be altered to fit customer requirements. The armament sighting system is manual. The fire control system includes a dual magnification day sight and x5.5 night sight.


we need around 400 of one of these


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## Super Falcon

The Australian light armoured vehicle (ASLAV) is manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Australia for the Royal Australian Army. It is derived from the LAV-25 light armoured vehicle.

ASLAV is an eight-wheeled amphibious armoured vehicle designed for reconnaissance and surveillance missions. Australia has deployed ASLAVs in theatres in East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan.


The ASLAV programme

The ASLAV 8x8 wheeled light armoured vehicles are procured under the LAND 112 programme. The vehicles are designed to conduct reconnaissance and surveillance activities over large distances with minimal logistic support. The project has progressed in four phases.

In 1990, 15 light armoured vehicles were acquired from the US Marine Corps for evaluation in Australian conditions. In 1992, 111 vehicles were acquired under phase 2. The 2nd Cavalry Regiment was fully equipped with the ASLAV by 1997. The purchase of 144 improved vehicles was approved in phase 3.

"ASLAV is manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Australia for the Royal Australian Army."
Phase 2 fleet was upgraded to the more evolved phase 3 standard. The upgraded vehicle is fitted with modern electric turret drives, advanced thermal sights, an integrated laser rangefinder, a second-generation drive train and new suspension parts. The new remote weapon stations were incorporated to achieve behind armour commander's weapon station capability. The vehicles were assembled by General Motors Defence Australia.

In June 2010, the Australian Government provided second pass approval to upgrade ASLAV under the LAND 112 phase 4 project, scheduled to begin in April 2012.

ASLAV design

Based on the LAV-25 platform, the ASLAV is of eight-wheeled configuration, equipped with either four or eight-wheel drive. The versatility is increased by the addition of non-permanent mission role installation kits (MRIKs). This unique Australian alternation will generate several variants from a single hull design.

ASLAV is fitted with air-conditioning to protect the crew from interior temperatures reaching 55°C (131°F) in northern Australian region. The modernised vehicles carry a laser rangefinder, a new-generation thermal imager, 28V DC electric drive for the turret and improved suspension for the hull.

Mission variants

ASLAVs have been delivered in six variants: reconnaissance, personnel carrier, command, ambulance, surveillance, fitters and recovery. ASLAV-25 reconnaissance is a three-man reconnaissance vehicle armed with an M242 dual-feed 25mm Bushmaster cannon and two 7.62mm MAG58 machine guns. ASLAV-PC is a personnel carrier armed with a .50-calibre machine gun and capable of carrying seven troops. ASLAV-C is a command vehicle equipped with modern communication equipment and radio masts, mapboard and stowage compartments.

ASLAV-S is a surveillance vehicle equipped with a thermal imager, a laser range finder and a day television camera. ASLAV-A, an ambulance variant, carries medical equipment and litter stations. It can accommodate three lying patients or six sitting.

Orders and deliveries

In December 1992, the Commonwealth Government signed the ASLAV phase 2 contract with GDLS Canada for 113 ASLAV wheeled armoured fighting vehicles. Following the success of phase 2, the phase 3 contract for a further 144 ASLAVs was signed in September 2001. A total of 257 vehicles have been received in seven variants.

ASLAV armament

The primary armament of the ASLAV is a M242 25mm chain gun with thermal imaging sight. An M240 7.62mm machine gun mounted coaxially to the main gun serves as a secondary weapon. There is also a MAG58 7.62mm pintle-mounted machine gun fitted on the vehicle. Ancillary armament includes two 76mm smoke grenade launchers (clusters of four launchers each).

"The ASLAV 8x8 wheeled light armoured vehicles are procured under the LAND 112 programme."
Self-protection

The all-welded steel hull protects the crew from small arm fires and shell splinters. The add-on armour fitted on the vehicle provides all-round protection against projectiles of up to 14.5mm. The add-on armour over the frontal arc protects the vehicle from 30mm projectiles.

Engine

ASLAV is powered by 275hp Detroit Diesel 6V53T Silver diesel engine coupled with Allison MT653 (five speeds forward, one reverse) transmission.

Mobility

The ASLAV is a fully amphibious vehicle capable of travelling at a top road speed of 100km/h and maximum swim speed of 10km/h. It has a maximum road range of 660km. The vehicle is equipped with two propellers and four rudders for waterborne operations. A solid-core secondary tyre fitted to all wheels enhances battlefield mobility of the vehicle. This will allow the vehicle to run even with eight flat tyres. The vehicle can be transported by C-130, C-141, C-5A and CH-53 aircraft

---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

The Australian light armoured vehicle (ASLAV) is manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Australia for the Royal Australian Army. It is derived from the LAV-25 light armoured vehicle.

ASLAV is an eight-wheeled amphibious armoured vehicle designed for reconnaissance and surveillance missions. Australia has deployed ASLAVs in theatres in East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan.


The ASLAV programme

The ASLAV 8x8 wheeled light armoured vehicles are procured under the LAND 112 programme. The vehicles are designed to conduct reconnaissance and surveillance activities over large distances with minimal logistic support. The project has progressed in four phases.

In 1990, 15 light armoured vehicles were acquired from the US Marine Corps for evaluation in Australian conditions. In 1992, 111 vehicles were acquired under phase 2. The 2nd Cavalry Regiment was fully equipped with the ASLAV by 1997. The purchase of 144 improved vehicles was approved in phase 3.

"ASLAV is manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Australia for the Royal Australian Army."
Phase 2 fleet was upgraded to the more evolved phase 3 standard. The upgraded vehicle is fitted with modern electric turret drives, advanced thermal sights, an integrated laser rangefinder, a second-generation drive train and new suspension parts. The new remote weapon stations were incorporated to achieve behind armour commander's weapon station capability. The vehicles were assembled by General Motors Defence Australia.

In June 2010, the Australian Government provided second pass approval to upgrade ASLAV under the LAND 112 phase 4 project, scheduled to begin in April 2012.

ASLAV design

Based on the LAV-25 platform, the ASLAV is of eight-wheeled configuration, equipped with either four or eight-wheel drive. The versatility is increased by the addition of non-permanent mission role installation kits (MRIKs). This unique Australian alternation will generate several variants from a single hull design.

ASLAV is fitted with air-conditioning to protect the crew from interior temperatures reaching 55&#176;C (131&#176;F) in northern Australian region. The modernised vehicles carry a laser rangefinder, a new-generation thermal imager, 28V DC electric drive for the turret and improved suspension for the hull.

Mission variants

ASLAVs have been delivered in six variants: reconnaissance, personnel carrier, command, ambulance, surveillance, fitters and recovery. ASLAV-25 reconnaissance is a three-man reconnaissance vehicle armed with an M242 dual-feed 25mm Bushmaster cannon and two 7.62mm MAG58 machine guns. ASLAV-PC is a personnel carrier armed with a .50-calibre machine gun and capable of carrying seven troops. ASLAV-C is a command vehicle equipped with modern communication equipment and radio masts, mapboard and stowage compartments.

ASLAV-S is a surveillance vehicle equipped with a thermal imager, a laser range finder and a day television camera. ASLAV-A, an ambulance variant, carries medical equipment and litter stations. It can accommodate three lying patients or six sitting.

Orders and deliveries

In December 1992, the Commonwealth Government signed the ASLAV phase 2 contract with GDLS Canada for 113 ASLAV wheeled armoured fighting vehicles. Following the success of phase 2, the phase 3 contract for a further 144 ASLAVs was signed in September 2001. A total of 257 vehicles have been received in seven variants.

ASLAV armament

The primary armament of the ASLAV is a M242 25mm chain gun with thermal imaging sight. An M240 7.62mm machine gun mounted coaxially to the main gun serves as a secondary weapon. There is also a MAG58 7.62mm pintle-mounted machine gun fitted on the vehicle. Ancillary armament includes two 76mm smoke grenade launchers (clusters of four launchers each).

"The ASLAV 8x8 wheeled light armoured vehicles are procured under the LAND 112 programme."
Self-protection

The all-welded steel hull protects the crew from small arm fires and shell splinters. The add-on armour fitted on the vehicle provides all-round protection against projectiles of up to 14.5mm. The add-on armour over the frontal arc protects the vehicle from 30mm projectiles.

Engine

ASLAV is powered by 275hp Detroit Diesel 6V53T Silver diesel engine coupled with Allison MT653 (five speeds forward, one reverse) transmission.

Mobility

The ASLAV is a fully amphibious vehicle capable of travelling at a top road speed of 100km/h and maximum swim speed of 10km/h. It has a maximum road range of 660km. The vehicle is equipped with two propellers and four rudders for waterborne operations. A solid-core secondary tyre fitted to all wheels enhances battlefield mobility of the vehicle. This will allow the vehicle to run even with eight flat tyres. The vehicle can be transported by C-130, C-141, C-5A and CH-53 aircraft


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## mjnaushad

In recent Azm-e-Nau Pakistani APCs were equiped with both Bakhtar shikan + .50 caliber gun... A combination of Mouz and Maaz.


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## Stealth_fighter

does pak army or ssg use M249 squad automatic machine-gun?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Stealth_fighter said:


> does pak army or ssg use M249 squad automatic machine-gun?



Yes all special forces do... and even r navy,air force have it in service.

Video showing weapons used by navy guys.

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## Super Falcon

Pakistani Nationalist i was big fan of this wajahat show known as we are soldiers but i got closed in middle why and can i see it closed videos ever or not please reply me sir


anyway wheelled APC are soo important for army they carry more soldiers


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## mjnaushad

Why i see no end of RPG 7??? Come on its time to upgrade....

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## Ratus Ratus

Super Falcon said:


> anyway wheelled APC are soo important for army they carry more soldiers



Ho Hum!!

Wheeled and track have their places in the battle space.
Don't ignore track for the sake of wheels.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistani Nationalist i was big fan of this wajahat show known as we are soldiers but i got closed in middle *why* and can i see it closed videos ever or not please reply me sir



Coz of secrecy my friend.... closed videos i dont think so. only a few trailers of those were released which can be viewed on youtube.

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## TOPGUN

So how many in total apc's do we have ?


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## truthseeker2010

about 5000 (all types)


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## TaimiKhan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Coz of secrecy my friend.... closed videos i dont think so. only a few trailers of those were released which can be viewed on youtube.



Not due to secrecy, rather the program was stopped as he said something in his program which was not liked by someone in the higher chain of command, thus under pressure the program had to be stopped. 

It was most probably the Navy, which got upset on something which he said, which was not supposed to have been said. 

There was nothing secret in his program, as the whole program was shot under the noses of ISPR and they approved what to be shown and what not. 

Hope the show is shown in near future, it was one unique program in the history of Pakistan.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TaimiKhan said:


> Not due to secrecy, rather the program was stopped as he said something in his program which was not liked by someone in the higher chain of command, thus under pressure the program had to be stopped.
> 
> It was most probably the Navy, which got upset on something which he said, which was not supposed to have been said.
> 
> There was nothing secret in his program, as the whole program was shot under the noses of ISPR and they approved what to be shown and what not.
> 
> Hope the show is shown in near future, it was one unique program in the history of Pakistan.



Wat did he say?


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## Aamir Hussain

I am not sure but PA was supplied with 500 M113 during the sixties and another 500 or so during the 80's and an agreement to mfg. M113 latest verision in Pakistan. Later, US transfered another 500 odd units to PA in mid to late 2000.


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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> Not due to secrecy, rather the program was stopped as he said something in his program which was not liked by someone in the higher chain of command, thus under pressure the program had to be stopped.
> 
> It was most probably the Navy, which got upset on something which he said, which was not supposed to have been said.
> 
> There was nothing secret in his program, as the whole program was shot under the noses of ISPR and they approved what to be shown and what not.
> 
> Hope the show is shown in near future, it was one unique program in the history of Pakistan.





Yea, what did he say? Just curious.


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## Super Falcon

thanx taimi khan for your comment and sir pakistan army not even single wheeled APC has that is a shocker for me most of the world armies making APC wheeled more than tracked


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## TaimiKhan

Super Falcon said:


> thanx taimi khan for your comment and sir pakistan army not even single wheeled APC has that is a shocker for me most of the world armies making APC wheeled more than tracked



Do we have a terrain where it can be used ?? For which terrain would it be useful in Pakistan, let me know and then we will discuss. 

Our armor doctrine is mostly in the desert area where M113s would be used as battle field taxis, in plains of Punjab, there would not be much use of APCs or mobile warfare.


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## alimobin memon

al-fahd?wheeled isn't it?


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## Babur Han

Are UR-416 and BTR-80 the only wheeled armoured Vehicles in PA Invertory ?


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## Dr. Strangelove

i know only about muhafiz


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## fatman17

wasm95 said:


> i know only about muhafiz



what do u mean - APC's then there are atleast 6-8 versions - go to PA info thread and get the info


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## Super Falcon

they are doing fine but they lacks one thing they just kept their entire mindset on tracked vehicles which dont work well for you in war becoz in war if you have as many as differetnt type of things it will be more easy for you to fight the war hope they come and bring something like BTR 90 or styker too


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## Dazzler

MBTs..

Al Khaild, Al Zarrar, T-59 MII upgrade, T-69 upgrade, T-85 IIAP


APC, Command post vehicle, ARVs

Modified M 113A1, A2, A3, Mohafiz, Al Hadid, Al Qaswa, Saad, ARV W653, Talha, Sakb. Pretty long line up


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## Dr. Strangelove



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## Dr. Strangelove

[vieo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZoHwWEhyiM&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
what is the name of the veheicle at 0.57 seconds in this vedio


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## Dr. Strangelove




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## Dr. Strangelove

what is the name of the armourd veheicle at 0.57 seconds in this vedio i have not seen it before


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## Jango

the vehicle at 57 looked like a cat...it is most likely a anti terrorism hostage scenario vehicle.....one more question.....what vehicle pakistan uses like the humvee of the US???...all i have seen in the units are RMR's and defenders and pickups!!


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## Super Falcon

i think HIT should move to wheeeled armoured personall carriers and provide different type of system to army


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## Last Hope

Quite agree to the wheeled part. It will also increase efficemcy and in situations like Lal Masjid, we won't need to use tracks and work would be faster....and better.


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## Dr. Strangelove

what is the name of that veheicle & is it produced by hit


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## Puma49

Here's a list of APC currently in service by Pakistan Army Total Number around 60,000 APC's
Hamza Infantry Fighting Vehicle[citation needed]  
Al-Fahd Infantry fighting vehicle[citation needed]  In Service[citation needed] 
Talha[citation needed] Armoured Personnel Carrier  Final number to be around 2,000[citation needed] 
Sa'ad Armoured Personnel Carrier[citation needed]  Currently in production[citation needed] 
M113 Armoured Personnel Carrier 1,600[43] In Service 
BTR-70/BTR-80 Armoured Personnel Carrier 720[43] In Service[48] 
Mohafiz Light Armoured Personnel Carrier ???[43] In Service & Additional APCs being procured 
Otokar Akrep Light Jeep 1,260 In Service[citation needed] 
Al Qaswa Logistical Vehicle 500 Being procured 
M88 ARV Armoured Recovery Vehicle - In Service
Humvee 1,730 In Service
VAB 1000 In service


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## fatman17

Puma49 said:


> Here's a list of APC currently in service by Pakistan Army *Total Number around 60,000 APC's*Hamza Infantry Fighting Vehicle[citation needed] &#8211;
> Al-Fahd Infantry fighting vehicle[citation needed] &#8211; In Service[citation needed]
> Talha[citation needed] Armoured Personnel Carrier &#8211; Final number to be around 2,000[citation needed]
> Sa'ad Armoured Personnel Carrier[citation needed] &#8211; Currently in production[citation needed]
> M113 Armoured Personnel Carrier 1,600[43] In Service
> BTR-70/BTR-80 Armoured Personnel Carrier 720[43] In Service[48]
> Mohafiz Light Armoured Personnel Carrier ???[43] In Service & Additional APCs being procured
> Otokar Akrep Light Jeep 1,260 In Service[citation needed]
> Al Qaswa Logistical Vehicle 500 Being procured
> M88 ARV Armoured Recovery Vehicle - In Service
> Humvee 1,730 In Service
> VAB 1000 In service



from where did u get these numbers???


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## XYON

Puma49 said:


> Here's a list of APC currently in service by Pakistan Army Total Number around 60,000 APC's
> Hamza Infantry Fighting Vehicle[citation needed] &#8211;
> Al-Fahd Infantry fighting vehicle[citation needed] &#8211; In Service[citation needed]
> Talha[citation needed] Armoured Personnel Carrier &#8211; Final number to be around 2,000[citation needed]
> Sa'ad Armoured Personnel Carrier[citation needed] &#8211; Currently in production[citation needed]
> M113 Armoured Personnel Carrier 1,600[43] In Service
> BTR-70/BTR-80 Armoured Personnel Carrier 720[43] In Service[48]
> Mohafiz Light Armoured Personnel Carrier ???[43] In Service & Additional APCs being procured
> Otokar Akrep Light Jeep 1,260 In Service[citation needed]
> Al Qaswa Logistical Vehicle 500 Being procured
> M88 ARV Armoured Recovery Vehicle - In Service
> Humvee 1,730 In Service
> VAB 1000 In service




Pakistan Army does not have any HUMVEES. These figures are dubious at best!


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## S.Y.A

APCs / IFVs: 4,620

source:
Military Strength of Pakistan


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## Manticore

burraq






Al talha with add on armour






Sakb is an armoured command vehicle






















alqaswa

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore

alhadeed

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## Manticore

moaz

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## Manticore

[




















raad





mohafiz

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## Manticore

saad

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## Manticore

altalha sold to iraq

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/95898-apcs-anti-tank-tracked-wheeled-systems-5.html
Pakistan Army Armored Vehicles

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## Manticore

M113

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## farhan_9909

Mohafiz II wits RCWS

the best armoured vehicle pakistan has developed so far

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## tarrar

I think Pakistan needs to work on Strykers they can serve the Armed forces well, Rangers & FC's.


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## ANPP

PA doesn't use dedicated IFVs. Instead of IFV it introduce the large # of TALHA APC. Can any one summarizes that doctrine pls!!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Add Lazar 2:































Comming with :

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## fatman17

APC Inventory;

M113A1/A2.....2,800.....includes many variants.
Type 531..........100
BTR70/BTR80.....120
Akrep(Scorpion).n/a


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> APC Inventory;
> 
> M113A1/A2.....2,800.....includes many variants.
> Type 531..........100
> BTR70/BTR80.....120
> Akrep(Scorpion).n/a



What about the hyped Al Fahad IFV and mohafiz vehicles... also can you post a few pics of Type-531 apcs..


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## madmusti

@DESERT FIGHTER

Why Lazar 2 ? If you can have this without problems :


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## DESERT FIGHTER

madmusti said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Why Lazar 2 ? If you can have this without problems :



Probably bcoz its an MRAV and could be used in various roles... such as an IFV,MRAP aswell etc... And who know maybe PA would also get it with ToT...


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## Last Hope

How about some TOW?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ANTIBODY said:


>



Isnt a captured indian BMP and not in use... these are used as mertr decorations...

Anyways on topic... can somebody identify this vehicle:







On topic more APCs in use:











BRDM-2s used by the police...

Casspir MRAP:






*PIFV =Pakistan Infantry Fighting Vehicle*








*M-113A2 with twin 106mm RR?*




*ANZA SAMS and twin barrel 14.5 millimeter gun equipped M113A2*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

madmusti said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Why Lazar 2 ? If you can have this without problems :



Probably bcoz its MRAV.... and can be used in several roles... including MRAP,IFV etc..


Anyway... Sipri reports Pak recieved:

20	Cougar	APC	2010	2010	(20)	Buffalo EOD version:












http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ta.html&gt;.&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13726437481708


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## fatman17

United States.....Pakistan.....109.....M-113-APC.....1962.....1963 - 1964..... 
United States.....Pakistan.....300.....M-113-APC......1973.....1973 - 1975.....M-113A1 version
United States.....Pakistan.....230.....M-113-APC......1977	.....1979 - 1980.....M-113A1 version
United States.....Pakistan.....110.....M-113-APC.......1985.....1986 - 1987.....$25 m deal; M-113A2 version
United States.....Pakistan.....775.....M-113-APC.......1989.....1989 - 1999.....M-113A2 version; most assembled from kits (delivered between 1989-1991/1995) in Pakistan.
United States.....Pakistan.....550.....M-113-APC.......2008......2009 - 2010....EDA Stocks.


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## fatman17

Others

Supplier.....Recipient.....No. ordered.....Designation.....Description.....Status.....Year of order.....Year(s) of deliveries....Recipient Involvement.....Comment
China........Pakistan.......65.................W-653/Type-653-ARV..........New..........1994...............1995 - 2000..............Incl assembly/production in Pakistan.....Pakistani designation ARV-W653
Germany....Pakistan......100................UR-416-APC........................New..........1972................1973 - 1976............Incl for border guard.....incl version with 20mm gun
Germany....Pakistan......10..................Dingo-2-APC.......................New...........2009...............2010 - 2010............
Italy.........Pakistan.......45.................M-65E LMV-APV...................New...........2009...............2010 - 2010............
Soviet Union..Pakistan....2..................SPK-5-ARV....................SecondHand......1966...............1966 - 1966...........Ex-Soviet for trial.
Turkey.....Pakistan.......50..................Shorland-APV.......................New...........1994...............1995 - 1996...........Shorland S-55 version; incl for police
United Kingdom..Pakistan.....10.............Hussar-APC.........................New...........1987..............1988 - 1988...........For police
United Kingdom...Pakistan....10.............Ferret-APV..........................New...........1953...............1954 - 1954.........
United Kingdom...Pakistan....20.............Transac GS-APV...................New...........1987...............1988 - 1988.........
United Kingdom...Pakistan....24.............Shorland-APV.......................New...........1990...............1990 - 1991........Shorland S-55 version; for police
United States.....Pakistan.....20............Cougar-APC..........................New	..........2010................2010 - 2010.......Buffalo EOD version; aid
United States.....Pakistan.....10.............M-32-ARV......................SecondHand......1949...............1950 - 1950.......Probably ex-US
United States.....Pakistan.....52.............M-88A1-ARV.........................New...........1981...............1984 - 1986........


----------



## alimobin memon

Lazar 2 bought with TOT unkown numbers will be produced in HIT I think AL Fahd and Lazar 2 are enought for Wheeled IFV's in Pakistan army inventory.


----------



## Inception-06

alimobin memon said:


> Lazar 2 bought with TOT unkown numbers will be produced in HIT I think AL Fahd and Lazar 2 are enought for Wheeled IFV's in Pakistan army inventory.



we dont have the "Al Fahd" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Probably bcoz its MRAV.... and can be used in several roles... including MRAP,IFV etc..
> 
> 
> Anyway... Sipri reports Pak recieved:
> 
> 20	Cougar	APC	2010	2010	(20)	Buffalo EOD version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ta.html&gt;.&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13726437481708



these are MRAPs - PK has the Cougar APC


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## Gentelman

madmusti said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Why Lazar 2 ? If you can have this without problems :



what are its specifications??
is its weapons are remote controlled??
I guess PA slected Laser2 coz of its composite armour,remout controlled weapon system and multi purpose roles i.e MRAP and cost effective easy to maintain etc??


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## madmusti

Gentelman said:


> what are its specifications??
> is its weapons are remote controlled??
> I guess PA slected Laser2 coz of its composite armour,remout controlled weapon system and multi purpose roles i.e MRAP and cost effective easy to maintain etc??



The First it´s not Remote Controlled but has too an Optionfor that and the Second ist Remote Controlled.

Of course both of them on their Class Cost Effective ,it´s from FNSS & Otokar.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> these are MRAPs - PK has the Cougar APC



Sir JERRV is an MRAP...





> The Cougar Joint Explosive Ordnance Disposal Rapid Response Vehicle (JERRV) 4x4 is a member of the Cougar 4x4 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Family of Vehicles (FOV) which is capable of transporting personnel and cargo within the current theater of operations. The JERRV EOD 4x4 is a versatile, diesel powered, pneumatic tired, heavily armored, multi-purpose vehicle equipped with a 360-degree automatic weapons mount that is urgently needed by Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) teams deployed in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom to increase their survivability against Improvised Explosive Devices (IED). JERRV EOD 4x4 s are also required for contingency operations in support of the Global War on Terrorism by Engineer Mine Clearing teams against IEDs. Currently, 9 vehicles Cougar JERRV 4x4 are in services with the United States Marine Corps. The JERRV version of Cougar 4x4 is classed as Category II Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle while the standard version of Cougar 4x4 is category I MRAP.


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## zeeshanaayan07

Thanks for sharing brilliant machine... Very Nice


----------



## nomi007



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## imranyounus

while searching on goolge for HIT's Muhafiz i found a picture of sir Lanka chiefs visit ti hit i was not able to up load the picture but if any one of you have seen it can someone tell me the name of wight vehicle standing next to Muhafiz it look different and much bigger


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## chinese-man

yes!all right


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## fahad196

i like it tanks and my hobbies is tanks i very very like it


----------



## RAMPAGE

Guys which is this :

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## Gentelman

RAMPAGE said:


> Guys which is this :



Special APC to take Altaf bhai bori from airport to graveyard from jet which will land from UK
waiting for that moment impatientely

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## PWFI

Gentelman said:


> Special APC to take Altaf bhai bori from airport to graveyard from jet which will land from UK&#8230;
> waiting for that moment impatientely



Sorry dear this APC don't have so much space, you need AN-225 to transport such big thing !

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


>



Funny they after coming out of APC are reading map man even in exercise you before launching attack read all the maps

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> Funny they after coming out of APC are reading map man even in exercise you before launching attack read all the maps



They are posing,its just for the Media !


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## Gentelman

PWFI said:


> Sorry dear this APC don't have so much space, you need AN-225 to transport such big thing !



dont worry Karachi is big city they will have AN-225 just in 2 hours after having chanda/bhatta

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## Thorough Pro

Its a pose for pic shoot, look at how the soldiers are all facing camera



Zarvan said:


> Funny they after coming out of APC are reading map man even in exercise you before launching attack read all the maps

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Funny they after coming out of APC are reading map man even in exercise you before launching attack read all the maps



Years old pic taken during some ex... with saudis i think.

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## Inception-06

Thorough Pro said:


> Its a pose for pic shoot, look at how the soldiers are all facing camera



And I did write same one page before you............

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## Bratva



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## Kompromat



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## nomi007

we need to develop fire smoke grenades for apc like this

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## antonyye

APC very beautifull. nice aur is say use kis waqat kya jata hai


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## AUz

Pakistan land forces have dedicated mechanized infantry divisions to move-in along with fast and brutal armored advance. !!!

Not many people realize this, but with the amount of resources we have, we have truly created a behemoth military machine for our national defense.

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## nomi007

1st *HMMWV *handed over to pakistan army not by usa but by TTp

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## thrilainmanila

AUz said:


> Pakistan land forces have dedicated mechanized infantry divisions to move-in along with fast and brutal armored advance. !!!
> 
> Not many people realize this, but with the amount of resources we have, we have truly created a behemoth military machine for our national defense.



without proper air support and SAMS it means nothing. The arabs had a bigger armoured division and they got decimated repeatedly so did we in longewala back in 71.

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## AUz

thrilainmanila said:


> without proper air support and SAMS it means nothing. The arabs had a bigger armoured division and they got decimated repeatedly so did we in longewala back in 71.



Yes.

We need to increase our air power massively! Hopefully, our economy comes back on track and we improve our air power and training/infrastructure etc.


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## Pakistanisage

We need to ramp up the production of domestically produced high quality APC's.....


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## fatman17

Hamza APC Prototype - never inducted.

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## Kompromat

Spaced - Cage Armor






Zoom in of Saad.

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## RAMPAGE

Coming Soon !!!

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## Super Falcon

We need wheeled apc trackef apc are good but we need different type of systems for differnt terrains and envionment.


----------



## C130

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_blindé_de_combat_d'infanterie
but the troop transport version.
or
Patria AMV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Super Falcon said:


> We need wheeled apc trackef apc are good but we need different type of systems for differnt terrains and envionment.



Sister forum reports .. PA going for VN-01 IFVs with 105+MM and 30mm 2A72 cannon etc versions... initial 150 to be supplied 700 to be produced by HIT under license..

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## WaLeEdK2

RAMPAGE said:


> Coming Soon !!!





How long will it take to induct all of these and how many are being inducted? Oh and what are the names of these vehicles?


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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Should Pakistan Army replace or upgrade its fleet of M113 APC because it has become obsolete? 

In recent massacre in Gaza, Israeli soldiers using M113 were slaughtered by Hamas by using mere RPG and other anti-tank weapons etc. 

The performance of M113 was regarded as "very poor" by Israel and hence Israeli top brass has moved in to phase out M113 with much stronger APC called Namer.

@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Rashid Mahmood what do you guys think about it?


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## Super Falcon

Dear did PA signed any deal with owner of vn -01 any offical news picture is not clear sometime they buy 3 lazaar2 systems from serbia.

Yes dear it is 26 year old tech with upgrades but its chassis is still 26 years tech even u attach new upgrades it base is same i think we need hi tech system which can serve army in future. We made so late inducting M103 we needed it in 90 our army was sleeping at that time


----------



## Kompromat

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Should Pakistan Army replace or upgrade its fleet of M113 APC because it has become obsolete?
> 
> In recent massacre in Gaza, Israeli soldiers using M113 were slaughtered by Hamas by using mere RPG and other anti-tank weapons etc.
> 
> The performance of M113 was regarded as "very poor" by Israel and hence Israeli top brass has moved in to phase out M113 with much stronger APC called Namer.
> 
> @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Rashid Mahmood what do you guys think about it?



And replace it with what?

Here is the fixture for RPGs from HIT. Cage spaced armor.








RAMPAGE said:


> Coming Soon !!!



Let me just say that i love this vehicle. I wish we produce them in large numbers.

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## Rashid Mahmood

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Should Pakistan Army replace or upgrade its fleet of M113 APC because it has become obsolete?
> 
> In recent massacre in Gaza, Israeli soldiers using M113 were slaughtered by Hamas by using mere RPG and other anti-tank weapons etc.
> 
> The performance of M113 was regarded as "very poor" by Israel and hence Israeli top brass has moved in to phase out M113 with much stronger APC called Namer.
> 
> @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Rashid Mahmood what do you guys think about it?




PA will replace it soon.
Replacing 1500+ APC is not easy....will take some time.

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## Super Falcon

Yes but replace with something state of tge art tech.


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## Basel

During Mush time PA lost opportunity to get TOT for Bradleys, they could have been very good addition as they can destroy tanks and IFVs while moving with their 25mm gun and are much more protected then M-113s.

If we got TOT for M-113s in the past we could have got TOT for Bradleys too, as they are not their main IFVs since introduction of Strykers IFVs.

Bradley Fighting Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Stryker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Horus Why that grill is around at the APC?? what benefit it give? look ugly.


----------



## Darth Vader

Gentelman said:


> Special APC to take Altaf bhai bori from airport to graveyard from jet which will land from UK
> waiting for that moment impatientely


design is frm ww1


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Based on Land cruiser

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## fatman17

M-113 and its variants are going to serve with the mechanised infantry for many years to come. thats the reality of it.

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## Super Falcon

Dear fatma M113 US ARMY discommisioned why we keep using systems which 30 Years old tech and which has been discommisioned we give our soldier something new oyr army still have 90 percent of systems old from rifles to tanks we use 30 years old weapons apart from al khalid and nukes everything is old


----------



## Knight Rider

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sister forum reports .. PA going for VN-01 IFVs with 105+MM and 30mm 2A72 cannon etc versions... initial 150 to be supplied 700 to be produced by HIT under license..
> 
> View attachment 48129
> View attachment 48130
> View attachment 48131
> View attachment 48132
> View attachment 48133


Thats Good News


----------



## The Sultan Erdogan

fatman17 said:


> M-113 and its variants are going to serve with the mechanised infantry for many years to come. thats the reality of it.



But @Rashid Mahmood says that Pakistan Army will replace M-113s in coming years.

Whats the reality than?


----------



## Knight Rider

The Sultan Erdogan said:


> But @Rashid Mahmood says that Pakistan Army will replace M-113s in coming years.
> 
> Whats the reality than?





Pakistanisage said:


> We need to ramp up the production of domestically produced high quality APC's.....


We have enough APCs and IFVs. We need MRAP for our Soldiers.As Hilux cant Protect our Soldiers from LEDs,Mines and C4s or Claymores.


----------



## Bossman

Super Falcon said:


> Dear fatma M113 US ARMY discommisioned why we keep using systems which 30 Years old tech and which has been discommisioned we give our soldier something new oyr army still have 90 percent of systems old from rifles to tanks we use 30 years old weapons apart from al khalid and nukes everything is old



M113 is still used by US Marines and many other NATO countries like Turkey, Italy and Greece. It is till very relevant in our context. Pakistan is not the US and is not fighting US so it does not have to (in fact it cannot) match with advanced countries. Please do some research and understand the context before making broad and immature statements.


----------



## Super Falcon

Bossman so what we are USA has more systems they can relay on we have one APC which we are using to carry our priceless soldiers it is not best protected we need atleast one good latest apc which can save lifes of soldiers and for ur ibfo grece italy turkey they will discomission system in 2016 and use them for training and US maribes using LAV 25 and few others when u have horse why use ir donkey in race marines also use it in yraini g purpiseses before u open ur mouth go and look at things i wasted 8 years of life and show respect


----------



## Luftwaffe

Super Falcon said:


> Bossman so what we are USA has more systems they can relay on we have one APC which we are using to carry our priceless soldiers it is not best protected we need atleast one good latest apc which can save lifes of soldiers and for ur ibfo grece italy turkey they will discomission system in 2016 and use them for training and US maribes using LAV 25 and few others when u have horse why use ir donkey in race marines also use it in yraini g purpiseses before u open ur mouth go and look at things i wasted 8 years of life and show respect



Israeli namer APC/IFV was also tested and was one of the contenders for US land forces APC/IFV but still did not fulfill completely all requirements. I don't think the following APC/IFV are barred for exports to country like Pakistan. 

Top 10 Armored Personnel Carriers | Military-Today.com


----------



## fatman17

The Sultan Erdogan said:


> But @Rashid Mahmood says that Pakistan Army will replace M-113s in coming years.
> 
> Whats the reality than?



i have my serious doubts because we keep buying/building more and more M113's


----------



## imranyounus

Pakistan's primary focus is India and most all of our border is desert. Tracked vehicals like M113 or Talha are best for such environment. We must work to increase their capabilities.
Our requirement for wheeled vehicals are temperory. Our fight on terror is not going to last long. Best option is to get some free stuff from US for war on terror. While we invest our funds in something that will benefit us for longer time.


----------



## Super Falcon

Free stuff is out of order one hit from standat anti tank missile will destroy it no matter how much u upgade it it cannot be 21st century dear M 113 is not last tracked systems in the world and we need to keep balance in systems all of our border is not with india on desert so think also 8x8 whelled system they are faster than tracked we need both systems and of hi tech systems dont forget out soldiers are sitting inside those M 113 dont provide protection in futeristic wars it developed acordingly needs of 20 years ago requirements
Requirments has been changed now so dont always think of beggimg from usa free pieces of junk

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## imranyounus

M113 is old and outdated agreed need something better yes no questions. 
But we are also not a rich country need to use our limited resources carefully for best output of mony. 
where did you get your stuff like F 16, were those fully paid out of our pocket???? so must take reality as it is. 
Getting few free stuff for war on terror will benefit us as it will release our resources for other equipments.


----------



## Super Falcon

Yaar akhir kab tak pesa ka rona roenga pechla 20 saalo tak aik G 3 ko tu hum replace nahe karsaka kam as kam rifle hi replace kardo itna kangla hai tu army rakgi kyon ha uniform pa har do saal pesa kharch kiavjata hai changing pa par jab koi zarori equipment chaheya tu kashkool ka rona roya jata ha apc ko bhool jao G 3 pori duniya na replace kardi zitada tar ab kia zang lag jaega tab ab replace karoge


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## Luftwaffe

Super Falcon said:


> Yaar akhir kab tak pesa ka rona roenga pechla 20 saalo tak aik G 3 ko tu hum replace nahe karsaka kam as kam rifle hi replace kardo itna kangla hai tu army rakgi kyon ha uniform pa har do saal pesa kharch kiavjata hai changing pa par jab koi zarori equipment chaheya tu kashkool ka rona roya jata ha apc ko bhool jao G 3 pori duniya na replace kardi zitada tar ab kia zang lag jaega tab ab replace karoge



No matter what Funds is the only problem! otherwise throw in money to the best product developers European/US they'll provide with almost anything. Pakistan's economy is already destroyed by these two political parties for the last so many years. 

Ye bhi skukar karo jo kuch hai yaar.


----------



## HAZARA

The M113 is a fully tracked armored personnel carrier that was developed by Food Machinery Corp (FMC)
Old Tech! It carries Only 11 passengers


----------



## Stealth



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## fatman17

1,050 EDA M-113A2 were offered but only 69 were accepted as they were in poor condition. a further 550 EDA from the German army were offered but the delivery is uncertain....PK prefers to induct its HIT built M-113A5's.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

In service..

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 136768
> 
> 
> In service..



In service without a board gun ? where is the 12.7mm gun on the top ? how they responde to the enemy fire ? Who is responsible for such things ? HIT is producing this guns, why they can not install this Items before sending the APC in the service with the Troops. Is there no or a lack of cordination between the Logistic HIT organisations and the Army Brigades ?


----------



## Chinese Muslim

*fat 99A2 *

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## nomi007

MRAPs are now deployed in the field. These Maxxpro vehicles are able to take hits from IEDs while providing high ranked security to the soldiers. These vehicles are also armed with machine guns to provide suppressive fire support.

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> MRAPs are now deployed in the field. These Maxxpro vehicles are able to take hits from IEDs while providing high ranked security to the soldiers. These vehicles are also armed with machine guns to provide suppressive fire support.


We only have 160 of these we need at least 1000 of these things for Army and FC and even few for Rangers in Karachi

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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> We only have 160 of these we need at least 1000 of these things for Army and FC and even few for Rangers in Karachi


i agree yr agr main ne deni hoti to main abi order kar deta
best is to develop our own 
*Burraq MRAP vehicle*
*






*

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## WaLeEdK2

The burraq MRAP needs a new design it so ugly


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## Keshav Murali

WaLeEdK2 said:


> The burraq MRAP needs a new design it so ugly


"Ugliness" doesn't matter as long as it works. If militaries adopted weapons based on beauty, then aircraft like A-10, which is devastatingly effective, would never have been adopted.


----------



## WaLeEdK2

Keshav Murali said:


> "Ugliness" doesn't matter as long as it works. If militaries adopted weapons based on beauty, then aircraft like A-10, which is devastatingly effective, would never have been adopted.




I know that but I'm sure we could create a better design AND make it work well. But yes I do agree that we should make it work properly first. I was wondering if PA has already been inducting these. And how many.

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## Zarvan

Keshav Murali said:


> "Ugliness" doesn't matter as long as it works. If militaries adopted weapons based on beauty, then aircraft like A-10, which is devastatingly effective, would never have been adopted.


But I don't think even this design will work

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## Keshav Murali

Zarvan said:


> But I don't think even this design will work



I wasn't saying anything about the design.

Finally it is the Pakistani security forces who have to decide, not armchair generals like you or me. As long as it offers decent mine protection, it works. Or broadly, as long as it runs, it works. 

As the vehicle is intended for anti-insurgency, maybe it might need an armor upgrade to take care of the cheap RPG's that Taliban have in large numbers.


----------



## Zarvan

Keshav Murali said:


> I wasn't saying anything about the design.
> 
> Finally it is the Pakistani security forces who have to decide, not armchair generals like you or me. As long as it offers decent mine protection, it works. Or broadly, as long as it runs, it works.
> 
> As the vehicle is intended for anti-insurgency, maybe it might need an armor upgrade to take care of the cheap RPG's that Taliban have in large numbers.


For our forces its not RPG its IED which are real death trap


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## Keshav Murali

Zarvan said:


> For our forces its not RPG its IED which are real death trap


The vehicle is protected against IED's, and it is not armored enough to take on RPGs.

I would think that the Taliban has RPGs in large numbers, considering all the news we've had so far of them in the region.


----------



## fatman17

Keshav Murali said:


> The vehicle is protected against IED's, and it is not armored enough to take on RPGs.
> 
> I would think that the Taliban has RPGs in large numbers, considering all the news we've had so far of them in the region.


 
they have them but not in 'large' numbers....it depends what you mean by 'large'. every militant doesnt own/carry one.



nomi007 said:


> i agree yr agr main ne deni hoti to main abi order kar deta
> best is to develop our own
> *Burraq MRAP vehicle*
> *
> View attachment 136787
> View attachment 136788
> *


 
i think a combo of Burraq and Maxxpro MRAPS should be deployed. some key features in the Maxxpro could be adopted on the Burraq after getting the necessary permissions. we shouldnt abandon the Burraq. forget the looks, make it effective.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> they have them but not in 'large' numbers....it depends what you mean by 'large'. every militant doesnt own/carry one.
> 
> 
> 
> i think a combo of Burraq and Maxxpro MRAPS should be deployed. some key features in the Maxxpro could be adopted on the Burraq after getting the necessary permissions. we shouldnt abandon the Burraq. forget the looks, make it effective.


need some technical assistance from south africa and turkey in this regard


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> i agree yr agr main ne deni hoti to main abi order kar deta
> best is to develop our own
> *Burraq MRAP vehicle*
> *
> View attachment 136787
> View attachment 136788
> *


That's not Burraq:


----------



## Keshav Murali

fatman17 said:


> they have them but not in 'large' numbers....it depends what you mean by 'large'. every militant doesnt own/carry one.



By large, maybe 2000-3000 rounds and perhaps 300 launchers.


----------



## Pakistani E

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That's not Burraq:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 137124
> View attachment 137125
> View attachment 137126



yar yay kiya mazakh hai...


----------



## Sulman Badshah

A combo of MAxxpro and ASV 2000 is good ... HIT MRAP didn't satisfied the Army


----------



## nomi007




----------



## nomi007

its imi wildcat 
looks like *Burraq MRAP*



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That's not Burraq:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 137124
> View attachment 137125
> View attachment 137126


lol i share video link also 1st check than comment


----------



## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> its imi wildcat
> looks like Burraq MRAP


Burraq MRAP is cheap copy of wildcat


----------



## nomi007

Sulman Badshah said:


> Burraq MRAP is cheap copy of wildcat


buraq need more modifications


----------



## madmusti

Go Buy Arma and solve your APC Problem.


----------



## chauvunist

Burraq is the most ugly thing i have seen in military world...

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## WaLeEdK2

chauvunist said:


> Burraq is the most ugly thing i have seen in military world...



Lol I think it's the wheels. If u look at the IMI wildcat its wheels are bigger.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

chauvunist said:


> Burraq is the most ugly thing i have seen in military world...


I think the plan is to scare the terrorist with the sheer ugliness of the machine

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistani Exile said:


> yar yay kiya mazakh hai...


If it works .. It's sex... N thts what matters not looks...

But thts just me..


----------



## nomi007




----------



## nomi007



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## Stealth

*DXM MRAP standing outside Islamabad Airport man f****** AWESOME MONSTER *


----------



## Jango

Stealth said:


> *DXM MRAP standing outside Islamabad Airport man f****** AWESOME MONSTER *



You took any pics?

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## kolinsky

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> That's not Burraq:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 137124
> View attachment 137125
> View attachment 137126





nomi007 said:


>


 this car is very cute, like a hello kitty.....


----------



## aziqbal

I don't really see the big deal in Pakistan getting those MRAPs yeah they are American and big and bad looking but certainly not outside the scope of HIT to build a domestic one

There is no technology issue from stopping Pakistan to build its own MRAP

But then if you are getting them for a cheap price and in good condition then why reinvent the wheel

Only issue with these American units is the high fuel consumption certainly pakistan can not move land forces using them on mass it would be a logistical nightmare but for the limited operations I guess are ok


----------



## Inception-06

Old History and NOT posted before in this kinde of Information material:

I like this Idea and solution for the 1980s it was totally OK

Designation:
*Cheeta*
Manufactured by: Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) 
Type: Armoured Vehicles 
Name: Armoured car

*Development/Description*


In the late 1980s, Pakistan modified a number of standard commercial 4x2 tractors for military applications.

These vehicles are intended to serve as training vehicles to reduce wear on actual combat equipment so saving significant operating costs.

The modifications included fitting a lightly armoured body to the chassis which covers the engine at the front and extends right to the rear.

The driver and commander are seated to the immediate rear of the engine and to their front is a large windscreen. To the rear of the driver and commander is space for a further two or three personnel, with the weapon installation mounted on the roof.

Normal means of entry and exit are believed to be via doors in the rear of the hull. There are minor differences between vehicles with some being provided with small hatches in the sides of the hull either side of the driver's compartment.

Mounted on either side of the hull, just forward of the driver's compartment, is a bank of three electrically operated smoke grenade dischargers that fire to the front of the vehicle. Most vehicles appear to be fitted with a single radio antenna mounted at the rear of the hull. As far as is known, these vehicles are not fitted with an NBC system or any night vision equipment.



*Variants*





Anti-Tank with TOW






This version is called Cheeta and is fitted with a roof-mounted US Raytheon Systems Company TOW ATGW launcher with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading. The TOW missile has a maximum range of 3,750 m.




RBS 70 SAM carrier


This is armed with the Swedish Bofors Missiles RBS 70 surface-to-air missile system with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading.




Anza SAM carrier


This has a pedestal-type mount on which are mounted four Anza (Lance) surface-to-air missiles in the ready to launch position. The Anza has been developed in Pakistan and is based on the Chinese HN-5 surface-to-air missile system which is of the infra-red fire-and-forget type.




MG carrier


This has a simple open hatch on which is mounted the Chinese version of the Russian 14.5 mm KPVT heavy machine gun. Due to the limited depression of the weapon the main role of this version is probably air defence.







*Status*


Production complete. In service with the Pakistani Army. These were not offered on the export market.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> Old History and NOT posted before in this kinde of Information material:
> 
> I like this Idea and solution for the 1980s it was totally OK
> 
> Designation:
> *Cheeta*
> Manufactured by: Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT)
> Type: Armoured Vehicles
> Name: Armoured car
> 
> *Development/Description*
> 
> 
> In the late 1980s, Pakistan modified a number of standard commercial 4x2 tractors for military applications.
> 
> These vehicles are intended to serve as training vehicles to reduce wear on actual combat equipment so saving significant operating costs.
> 
> The modifications included fitting a lightly armoured body to the chassis which covers the engine at the front and extends right to the rear.
> 
> The driver and commander are seated to the immediate rear of the engine and to their front is a large windscreen. To the rear of the driver and commander is space for a further two or three personnel, with the weapon installation mounted on the roof.
> 
> Normal means of entry and exit are believed to be via doors in the rear of the hull. There are minor differences between vehicles with some being provided with small hatches in the sides of the hull either side of the driver's compartment.
> 
> Mounted on either side of the hull, just forward of the driver's compartment, is a bank of three electrically operated smoke grenade dischargers that fire to the front of the vehicle. Most vehicles appear to be fitted with a single radio antenna mounted at the rear of the hull. As far as is known, these vehicles are not fitted with an NBC system or any night vision equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> *Variants*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Tank with TOW
> 
> View attachment 182150
> 
> 
> This version is called Cheeta and is fitted with a roof-mounted US Raytheon Systems Company TOW ATGW launcher with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading. The TOW missile has a maximum range of 3,750 m.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RBS 70 SAM carrier
> 
> 
> This is armed with the Swedish Bofors Missiles RBS 70 surface-to-air missile system with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anza SAM carrier
> 
> 
> This has a pedestal-type mount on which are mounted four Anza (Lance) surface-to-air missiles in the ready to launch position. The Anza has been developed in Pakistan and is based on the Chinese HN-5 surface-to-air missile system which is of the infra-red fire-and-forget type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MG carrier
> 
> 
> This has a simple open hatch on which is mounted the Chinese version of the Russian 14.5 mm KPVT heavy machine gun. Due to the limited depression of the weapon the main role of this version is probably air defence.
> 
> 
> View attachment 182151
> 
> 
> *Status*
> 
> 
> Production complete. In service with the Pakistani Army. These were not offered on the export market.



*Anza:*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*HIT*










*Uqaab (Pak Armouring)*












*Roll cage armoured Talha APC*







*Textron ASV:*










*Cougar EOD :*







*Mohafiz (HIT)*







*Dragoon (HIT)*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jango said:


> You took any pics?


MaxxPro MRAPS:






LAV:

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Old History and NOT posted before in this kinde of Information material:
> 
> I like this Idea and solution for the 1980s it was totally OK
> 
> Designation:
> *Cheeta*
> Manufactured by: Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT)
> Type: Armoured Vehicles
> Name: Armoured car
> 
> *Development/Description*
> 
> 
> In the late 1980s, Pakistan modified a number of standard commercial 4x2 tractors for military applications.
> 
> These vehicles are intended to serve as training vehicles to reduce wear on actual combat equipment so saving significant operating costs.
> 
> The modifications included fitting a lightly armoured body to the chassis which covers the engine at the front and extends right to the rear.
> 
> The driver and commander are seated to the immediate rear of the engine and to their front is a large windscreen. To the rear of the driver and commander is space for a further two or three personnel, with the weapon installation mounted on the roof.
> 
> Normal means of entry and exit are believed to be via doors in the rear of the hull. There are minor differences between vehicles with some being provided with small hatches in the sides of the hull either side of the driver's compartment.
> 
> Mounted on either side of the hull, just forward of the driver's compartment, is a bank of three electrically operated smoke grenade dischargers that fire to the front of the vehicle. Most vehicles appear to be fitted with a single radio antenna mounted at the rear of the hull. As far as is known, these vehicles are not fitted with an NBC system or any night vision equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> *Variants*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Tank with TOW
> 
> View attachment 182150
> 
> 
> This version is called Cheeta and is fitted with a roof-mounted US Raytheon Systems Company TOW ATGW launcher with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading. The TOW missile has a maximum range of 3,750 m.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RBS 70 SAM carrier
> 
> 
> This is armed with the Swedish Bofors Missiles RBS 70 surface-to-air missile system with additional missiles carried internally for manual reloading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anza SAM carrier
> 
> 
> This has a pedestal-type mount on which are mounted four Anza (Lance) surface-to-air missiles in the ready to launch position. The Anza has been developed in Pakistan and is based on the Chinese HN-5 surface-to-air missile system which is of the infra-red fire-and-forget type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MG carrier
> 
> 
> This has a simple open hatch on which is mounted the Chinese version of the Russian 14.5 mm KPVT heavy machine gun. Due to the limited depression of the weapon the main role of this version is probably air defence.
> 
> 
> View attachment 182151
> 
> 
> *Status*
> 
> 
> Production complete. In service with the Pakistani Army. These were not offered on the export market.



Armour protection was not very good on these vehicles in those days.


----------



## Stealth

Complete List of MRAPs, APCs & IFVs used by Pakistan Military - Download HD Image.

*Inventory:*

- Textron Commando (U.S.A)
- Buffalo EOD (U.S.A)
- Cougar JERRV (U.S.A)
- MaxxPro (U.S.A)
- BTR-70/BTR-80 (Chinese/Russian)
- Lazar 2 MRAV (Serbia)
- Talha APC (Pakistan)
- M113 (U.S.A)
- Al-Saad (Pakistan)
- WZ551 (China)
- Dragoon (Pakistan)
- Talha (Pakistan)
- Land Cruiser Based AV (Pakistan)
- Muhafiz (Pakistan)
- Raad (Pakistan)

*Coming Soon*

- Uqaab APC (Pakistan)
- VN-01 IFV (China)

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## Selous

Stealth said:


> View attachment 182248
> 
> 
> Complete List of MRAPs, APCs & IFVs used by Pakistan Military - Download HD Image.
> 
> *Inventory:*
> 
> - Textron Commando (U.S.A)
> - Buffalo EOD (U.S.A)
> - Cougar JERRV (U.S.A)
> - MaxxPro (U.S.A)
> - BTR-70/BTR-80 (Chinese/Russian)
> - Lazar 2 MRAV (Serbia)
> - Talha APC (Pakistan)
> - M113 (U.S.A)
> - Al-Saad (Pakistan)
> - WZ551 (China)
> - Dragoon (Pakistan)
> - Talha (Pakistan)
> - Land Cruiser Based AV (Pakistan)
> - Muhafiz (Pakistan)
> - Raad (Pakistan)
> 
> *Coming Soon*
> 
> - Uqaab APC (Pakistan)
> - VN-01 IFV (China)


What about the Caspir ? Someone told me they use Caspirs as well.


----------



## nomi007

after Peshawar incident pakistan request more mraps from usa


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Stealth said:


> View attachment 182248
> 
> 
> Complete List of MRAPs, APCs & IFVs used by Pakistan Military - Download HD Image.
> 
> *Inventory:*
> 
> - Textron Commando (U.S.A)
> - Buffalo EOD (U.S.A)
> - Cougar JERRV (U.S.A)
> - MaxxPro (U.S.A)
> - BTR-70/BTR-80 (Chinese/Russian)
> - Lazar 2 MRAV (Serbia)
> - Talha APC (Pakistan)
> - M113 (U.S.A)
> - Al-Saad (Pakistan)
> - WZ551 (China)
> - Dragoon (Pakistan)
> - Talha (Pakistan)
> - Land Cruiser Based AV (Pakistan)
> - Muhafiz (Pakistan)
> - Raad (Pakistan)
> 
> *Coming Soon*
> 
> - Uqaab APC (Pakistan)
> - VN-01 IFV (China)



We also use Maaz,Skot.Caspir,Panhard,Hamza IFV,PIFV (project frozen).... etc etc etc

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## Super Falcon

I think pakistan is doing well we need apcs like lazaar


----------



## fatman17

Italy has delivered nearly 650 M113 APC’S to the Pakistan Army as a gift from their excess stocks including VCC1 and VCC2 versions. 
Meanwhile the US has supplied 369 M113 APC’S from their EDA stocks during 2014.

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## SaqibSSG

I think Pakistan should replace APC Talha with Muhafiz or Serbian imported B7


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## SaqibSSG

Why Pakistan didn't show up apc Cobra in parade


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## SaqibSSG

I


sohailbarki said:


> Recovery Vehicle &#8216;Al-Hadeed&#8217;


It's not recovery vehicle it's mining assistant vehicle


----------



## SaqibSSG

Pakistan should buy humvee from USA because USA is replacing humvee with this


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## Super Falcon

Saqib ssg and u want pak buy old Humvee which are on mercy of simple IED please use some sense


----------



## fatman17

SaqibSSG said:


> Pakistan should buy humvee from USA because USA is replacing humvee with this



One can get cheaper hummers from China


----------



## Zarvan

SaqibSSG said:


> I think Pakistan should replace APC Talha with Muhafiz or Serbian imported B7


Muhafiz is not alternate to APC Talha for Talha best alternate can be latest APC and IFV produced by Turkey and we need Kripi and Ejer to replace Muhafiz


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

@Yazp.

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## fatman17

We shd look at Chinese options with local improvements as Western equipment is very expensive.


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## fatman17

This Chinese hummer can easily be modified with body armour. There are other APC / IFV examples.

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## Sulman Badshah

land rover

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## Sulman Badshah

Maxxpro and Buffalo 

check out desert Camo of Buffalo ... All the Buffalo that were delivered was in green Camo

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> Maxxpro and Buffalo
> 
> check out desert Camo of Buffalo ... All the Buffalo that were delivered was in green Camo
> 
> View attachment 222306




None of them came in green .. The only green coloured MRAPS are the Casspirs

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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> None of them came in green .. The only green coloured MRAPS are the Casspirs


aren't the right and left ones look alike Casspir



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> None of them came in green .. The only green coloured MRAPS are the Casspirs



This one is Buffalo MRAP 6x6


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## Zarvan

Pakistan should go for KRIPI from Turkey.


----------



## Path-Finder

only MRAPS's not HMMVE, why do we always pick up things which others have phased out?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> aren't the right and left ones look alike Casspir
> 
> 
> 
> This one is Buffalo MRAP 6x6
> View attachment 222389


Ah no those are EODs.. not Casspirs!

And I know what a buffalo EOD looks like .. Infact posted that very pic in Pesh b Military multimedia threads long ago,,, 

Was also shown at the parade ..

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## Wolfhound

Why is there still a need for dedicated APC's like the m117 or others when you can get the same protection, firepower, passenger carriage and way better mobility with something like the nurol edjer 4x4, mohafiz 3 and Burraq. The days of APC's are over and we need to be apart of the next generation.

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## Super Falcon

Yes but rubbish think tank is still bank on these things which are left overs or retired from other forces most of our apc are based on retired us army ont hit from anti tank will bring miserable end


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## kaonalpha

To all those suckers who believe our ASC is weak .

*The largest number of MRAPs is our in this army .No tom , dic and harry can operate them

Location ASC school and centre nowshera




*

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## hammad azhar

SaqibSSG said:


> Pakistan should buy humvee from USA because USA is replacing humvee with this


No use if that those r quite expensive to buy in our defence budget


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## Stealth

Sulman Badshah said:


> aren't the right and left ones look alike Casspir
> 
> 
> 
> This one is Buffalo MRAP 6x6
> View attachment 222389

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> To all those suckers who believe our ASC is weak .
> 
> *The largest number of MRAPs is our in this army .No tom , dic and harry can operate them
> 
> Location ASC school and centre nowshera
> 
> 
> 
> *


How many we have ?


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> How many we have ?


ASC operates around 136 .largest among all corps.Then it is engineers.

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## Waseem.Khan

PAK ARMY - Why you so Awesome


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## hammad azhar

Waseem.Khan said:


> PAK ARMY - Why you so Awesome


Because they r not politicians ...lol


----------



## ghazi52

Pak Army ..Salute


----------



## RAMPAGE

@Icarus @Xeric 

What kind of IEDs do you guys usually face? 
What do you think of this AV, its protection level and its use in our COIN ops scenario?

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## Icarus

RAMPAGE said:


> @Icarus @Xeric
> 
> What kind of IEDs do you guys usually face?
> What do you think of this AV, its protection level and its use in our COIN ops scenario?
> 
> 
> View attachment 232581



Troops face a diverse range of IED attacks ranging from Car bombs (VBIEDS), Artillery Shell Derived IEDs, Pressure Cooker IEDs and even IEDs employing human cadavers. These are just four out of hundreds of types of IEDs that troops face, anything that can improve troop suitability (nothing can ensure it) is welcome.

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## Tacticool

remote control weapon stations are the key in coin and urban street fighting


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## Inception-06

kaonalpha said:


> To all those suckers who believe our ASC is weak .
> 
> *The largest number of MRAPs is our in this army .No tom , dic and harry can operate them
> 
> Location ASC school and centre nowshera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Always I see Pakistani MRaps in picture without weapons I mean no HMG no 12.7mm AA Gun nothing ? Will it be fitted later or what ?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Always I see Pakistani MRaps in picture without weapons I mean no HMG no 12.7mm AA Gun nothing ? Will it be fitted later or what ?



When in action

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## SaqibSSG

kaonalpha said:


> To all those suckers who believe our ASC is weak .
> 
> *The largest number of MRAPs is our in this army .No tom , dic and harry can operate them
> 
> Location ASC school and centre nowshera
> 
> 
> 
> *


Is this American anti mining vehicle..????


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## SaqibSSG

Super Falcon said:


> Saqib ssg and u want pak buy old Humvee which are on mercy of simple IED please use some sense


We don't have any other choices have a look on hilux, land rover at least we will have main apc of world's super power


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## Sulman Badshah

SaqibSSG said:


> Is this American anti mining vehicle..????


yes


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## kaonalpha

SaqibSSG said:


> Is this American anti mining vehicle..????


No It is not. They are a different class all together.


----------



## fatman17

APC variants

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## Super Falcon

We should get tot fo anraxx and buffalo and couger bunker like weapons


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## Signalian

APC's with 12.7mm armament are just battle taxis. PA needs good IFV with decent firepower to counter all threats on battlefield. 

A turreted IFV with 25/30/40mm cannon, ATGM and troop transport compartment.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sarge said:


> APC's with 12.7mm armament are just battle taxis. PA needs good IFV with decent firepower to counter all threats on battlefield.
> 
> A turreted IFV with 25/30/40mm cannon, ATGM and troop transport compartment.



We have IFVs Armed with 25mms and ATGMS.

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We have IFVs Armed with 25mms and ATGMS.


AL Hamza?

Its not in service in PA.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sarge said:


> AL Hamza?
> 
> Its not in service in PA.


Hamza 
Dragoon
M1117
Muaaz
etc etc

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Hamza
> Dragoon
> M1117
> Muaaz
> etc etc



I was thinking more on lines of a M2 Bradley, BMP-2/3, CV-90 etc sort of IFV which can be commonly spread out in mechanized Inf bat's of PA. 25/30/40 mm cannon and ATGM. So far its M-113 with 12.7mm AA in PA MIB's, which cant even engage a BMP-2 if faced in combat during an armoured conflict. I understand that M-113 will work behind Tank cover but on their own, they are vulnerable to everything Indian armoured forces can throw.

Dragoon is like M113 on wheels with 12.7mm HMG. 
M1117 is internal security veh has 0.50 cal HMG. 
Muaaz is like M-901(TOW on M113), a dedicated tank destroyer which can be used in HAT's (heavy Anti Tank) Bat's of PA. I think the 106mm RR's have been replaced in the LAT's (light AT) like 26 Punjab Regt. Perhaps Muaaz is filling up for these RR jeep Battlaions but then again these AT battalions are one in every infantry division and carry the role of recon too for the entire div. PA has some 24 M-901 in service, perhaps a battalion of 24 or maybe 12 each in 2 battalions.

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## Ayeshaali

Wao very Nice Tanks..


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## Sulman Badshah

Maxxpro's

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Maxxpro's
> 
> View attachment 268004


Pakistan should go for Kripi as soon as possible with TOT and also Ejer 4x 4


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## milen

Such intelligent work on the subject and ideal way of writing here.


----------



## Sulman Badshah



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## HRK

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 279515



Which vehicle is this ... seeing it first time ... does not look like Navistar MRAP or Caiman 4x4 mrap ....??


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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> Which vehicle is this ... seeing it first time ... does not look like Navistar MRAP or Caiman 4x4 mrap ....??


it is Buffalo MRAP ...

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## Rashid Mahmood

HRK said:


> Which vehicle is this ... seeing it first time ... does not look like Navistar MRAP or Caiman 4x4 mrap ....??




*CASSPIR MPV (MINE PROTECTED VEHICLE).*
The Casspir is a Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicle that has been in use in South Africa for over 30 years

*



*

*When Pakistan got Casspir MRAP ?*

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## Manticore

When Pakistan got Casspir MRAP ?
Pakistan will produce Turkish vehicle Nurol EJDER YALCIN 4X4 Armoured Combat Vehicle
Unveiling HIT's Dragoon APC | Page 6


----------



## Sulman Badshah

@Dazzler @Manticore @HRK @Zarvan 

A friend of mine have share this ...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> @Dazzler @Manticore @HRK @Zarvan
> 
> A friend of mine have share this ...
> View attachment 280331



Good and bad news.. Idiots cancelled Burraq MRAP after getting MaxPros!

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Good and bad news.. Idiots cancelled Burraq MRAP after getting MaxPros!


Well they got MAXPROS as for MRAP instead of designing our own we should by KRIPI or AL Masmak MRAP from Saudi Arabia



_
But good news is we are going for VN-1


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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Good and bad news.. Idiots cancelled Burraq MRAP after getting MaxPros!


HIT MRAP had a bad design/ not future oriented/ and was providing too less protection against IED's

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## fatman17

Rashid Mahmood said:


> *CASSPIR MPV (MINE PROTECTED VEHICLE).*
> The Casspir is a Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicle that has been in use in South Africa for over 30 years
> 
> *
> View attachment 279628
> *
> 
> *When Pakistan got Casspir MRAP ?*



A few were imported for testing but nothing further happened

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## HAIDER



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## Sulman Badshah

APC TALHA

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## Signalian

I think its an ADATS on LAV III. would love to see a system like this in PA someday

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## Dazzler

Army chief inspecting Dragoon at HIT..

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## fatman17

Dazzler said:


> Army chief inspecting Dragoon at HIT..



Are these being produced locally


----------



## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> Are these being produced locally



affirmative, the one in the pic has been produced at APC manufacturing factory

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## HAIDER

American design sold to HIT










This one produced in HIT

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## Wolf

Look at this German beauty

Wish to see it in Pakistan Army colours if possible. Arguably it provides the best level of troop protection

Puma IFV

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## Sulman Badshah

This is new pic... 
is it the revival of dormant AL-Hamza IFV Project?? 

@Dazzler @fatman17 @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> This is new pic...
> is it the revival of dormant AL-Hamza IFV Project??
> 
> @Dazzler @fatman17 @Zarvan
> View attachment 293999





Sulman Badshah said:


> This is new pic...
> is it the revival of dormant AL-Hamza IFV Project??
> 
> @Dazzler @fatman17 @Zarvan
> View attachment 293999


Yes it looks like one and Gun is from Turkey most probably

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## mingle

Sulman Badshah said:


> This is new pic...
> is it the revival of dormant AL-Hamza IFV Project??
> 
> @Dazzler @fatman17 @Zarvan
> View attachment 293999


It's a good concept light tank kind of thing will help infantry .


----------



## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Yes it looks like one and Gun is from Turkey most probably



Italian otto melero is my understanding. It's the best we can do as our financial position is still poor.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Italian otto melero is my understanding. It's the best we can do as our financial position is still poor.



And will be produced in small batches

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Italian otto melero is my understanding. It's the best we can do as our financial position is still poor.





Zarvan said:


> Yes it looks like one and Gun is from Turkey most probably


Chinese WA314T Turret

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## Zarvan

Sarge said:


> View attachment 286977
> 
> I think its an ADATS on LAV III. would love to see a system like this in PA someday


@Sulman Badshah What on earth is this ?


----------



## JamD

Dazzler said:


> affirmative, the one in the pic has been produced at APC manufacturing factory


I have it on good authority that we are merely assembling these right now at HIT. It makes these prohibitively expensive as well. Also when COAS visited he wasn't pleased that no efforts at indigenization of it were taking place. Now work is being done to possibly manufacture more and more parts of it in house.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> @Sulman Badshah What on earth is this ?


One is Canadian wheeled armored IFV 
and other is US made Air defense vehicle based on M113 design


----------



## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> Chinese WA314T Turret
> 
> View attachment 294099



It's a copy of otto melero

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> It's a copy of otto melero



Oto melara is the right spelling. My bad

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## Sulman Badshah




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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 295101


Is it Mohafiz ?


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Is it Mohafiz ?


yes


----------



## Tipu7



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## nana41

bd_4_ever said:


> Impressive APCs i must say....btw, how many APCs does Pak Army have in its inventory....any idea....??
> 
> 
> Cheers!!!


Altogether about 4000.


----------



## fatman17

nana41 said:


> Altogether about 4000.



actually more like 2,500.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> actually more like 2,500.


The M113 and APC Talha totals to about 2000+. We have other types (a lot of different types) in small number so yes the total will be 2600-3000 i would say. Not 4000 anyway.

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## Sulman Badshah

DRAGOON APC

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Produced by a private company ;








Sulman Badshah said:


> DRAGOON APC
> 
> View attachment 308226
> View attachment 308227



Would have been really nice if they armed it with a 20+ MM canon + ATGMs.. That would make a nice LAV.

*Another Pvt company's product ;







*

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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Would have been really nice if they armed it with a 20+ MM canon + ATGMs.. That would make a nice LAV.


they inducted in ASF .. they don't need ATGM



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Produced by a private company ;
> 
> View attachment 308284
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would have been really nice if they armed it with a 20+ MM canon + ATGMs.. That would make a nice LAV.
> 
> *Another Pvt company's product ;
> 
> View attachment 308285
> View attachment 308286
> *


name the company


----------



## Windjammer

*
Pakistan Army's Buffalo MRAP Vehicle.*

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## Bossman

There are about 500 second hand M113 parked at COD Karachi which Pakistan has purchased from various sources. These are slowly being shipped to HIT, where they are totally stripped and rebuilt including brand new Detroit Diesel Engines. When done they are as good as brand new. A new M113 based IFV is also expected.

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## RAMPAGE

Bossman said:


> There are about 500 second hand M113 parked at COD Karachi which Pakistan has purchased from various sources. These are slowly being shipped to HIT, where they are totally stripped and rebuilt including brand new Detroit Diesel Engines. When done they are as good as brand new. *A new M113 based IFV is also expected.*


Mind sharing your source?

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## fatman17

Bossman said:


> There are about 500 second hand M113 parked at COD Karachi which Pakistan has purchased from various sources. These are slowly being shipped to HIT, where they are totally stripped and rebuilt including brand new Detroit Diesel Engines. When done they are as good as brand new. A new M113 based IFV is also expected.



The only source is US. These are EDA.

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## Centurion2016

British and German and Israeli armies have 5000 apc and itv each. With much smaller armies than both Pakistan and India .

Both the south Asian armies should have over 8000 plus vehicles not 2000 or 2500 , massively short coming

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## Bossman

fatman17 said:


> The only source is US. These are EDA.



Not correct in addition to EDS, 600 were received from Italy. The EDS number could be as high as 1100. Deal with Germany for 800 did not go through due to US pressure. With local production of M113s and Talhas, the total number is in excess of 3,000. Once the 500 parked at COD Karachi and HIT are rebuilt the number will be close to 4,000

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## HRK

Bossman said:


> The EDS number could be as high as 1100.



exact number is *1050* ...

total delivered number is *943* as of 31-07-2015

(As per EDA record)


----------



## fatman17

More than half of the EDA offers for M113s are rejected because the APCS are in such poor condition that upgrading them is a total waste.

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## RAMPAGE

@Sulman Badshah 

Any idea about the unit cost of HIT Muhafiz III?


----------



## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sulman Badshah
> 
> Any idea about the *unit cost* of HIT Muhafiz III?



itni hai kay Ek larki ki Serena mai shadi bhe ho jaye aur aalaa kisam ka jahez bhe ajaye ?

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## Lone Ranger

@Sulman Badshah @Bratva 

*Is it muhafiz?





*


----------



## RAMPAGE

NOMAN SALEEM said:


> @Sulman Badshah @Bratva
> 
> *Is it muhafiz?
> 
> View attachment 314650
> *


Yep. Muhafiz 2


----------



## Sulman Badshah

RAMPAGE said:


> @Sulman Badshah
> 
> Any idea about the unit cost of HIT Muhafiz III?


no idea about unit cost .. but it should be much more than its predecessors because it comes up with better chassis , new engine 200 HP (as compared to 122 HP) .. and B7 level protection


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

NOMAN SALEEM said:


> @Sulman Badshah @Bratva
> 
> *Is it muhafiz?
> 
> View attachment 314650
> *





RAMPAGE said:


> Yep. Muhafiz 2



Nope..
MII;





MIII












Protector :







And God knows which vehicle is that..

@RAMPAGE. 

Same vehicle from front ;







Could it be a new variant of this ;






Another one from Pak armouring Pvt -- for police ;

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## RAMPAGE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope..
> MII;
> View attachment 314674
> 
> 
> MIII
> 
> View attachment 314675
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 314676
> 
> 
> Protector :
> 
> View attachment 314677
> 
> 
> 
> And God knows which vehicle is that..
> 
> @RAMPAGE.
> 
> Same vehicle from front ;
> 
> 
> View attachment 314680
> 
> 
> Could it be a new variant of this ;
> 
> View attachment 314681
> 
> 
> Another one from Pak armouring Pvt -- for police ;
> 
> View attachment 314684
> View attachment 314685


I think I saw the last one yesterday in Wajahat's show on SSU.


----------



## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope..
> MII;
> View attachment 314674
> 
> 
> MIII
> 
> View attachment 314675
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 314676
> 
> 
> Protector :
> 
> View attachment 314677
> 
> 
> 
> And God knows which vehicle is that..
> 
> @RAMPAGE.
> 
> Same vehicle from front ;
> 
> 
> View attachment 314680
> 
> 
> Could it be a new variant of this ;
> 
> View attachment 314681
> 
> 
> Another one from Pak armouring Pvt -- for police ;
> 
> View attachment 314684
> View attachment 314685


The both vechiles designed by Pak Armor are better than Muhafiz series and should be adopted by Armed Forces and Para Military



RAMPAGE said:


> I think I saw the last one yesterday in Wajahat's show on SSU.


Yes it was shown Dr Asim is also transported in it


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> The both vechiles designed by Pak Armor are better than Muhafiz series and should be adopted by Armed Forces and Para Military
> 
> 
> Yes it was shown Dr Asim is also transported in it


Ok chacha Ji..

Max pro

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ok chacha Ji..
> 
> Max pro
> 
> View attachment 314694


If FC Jawans would have been travelling in those vechiles they could have survived in yesterday incident. It's time to buy 100 to 150 of those and give them to Rangers in Karachi and FC in Quetta.

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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And God knows which vehicle is that..



Dude This is new Mohafiz 3 ... Old design never went into production ... 

Check out page 15

http://www.hit.gov.pk/imgesnscript/hitbroucher1.pdf


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> Dude This is new Mohafiz 3 ... Old design never went into production ...
> 
> Check out page 15
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/imgesnscript/hitbroucher1.pdf



Dude both are in protection and the idiot who did the brochure is a knucklehead


http://www.hit.gov.pk/protector.html

http://www.hit.gov.pk/mohafiz_iii.html

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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Dude both are in protection and the idiot who did the brochure is a knucklehead
> 
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/protector.html
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/mohafiz_iii.html


looks like both are almost same 200 hp engine / B7 protection /same chassis .. there is just a difference in design little bit 

and for broucher .. what we can expect from an Govt entity

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> looks like both are almost same 200 hp engine / B7 protection /same chassis .. there is just a difference in design little bit
> 
> and for broucher .. what we can expect from an Govt entity


Look at the AK specs .. Specially speed segment.. Idiots couldn't even type correctly.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Dude This is new Mohafiz 3 ... Old design never went into production ...
> 
> Check out page 15
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/imgesnscript/hitbroucher1.pdf


Than it's is more disgusting that areas which our soldiers face more attacks are not using these. 100 Muhafiz III should be bought and 60 should by given to Rangers in Karachi and 40 to FC in Quetta. Enough of Toyota Hilux death traps.


----------



## uziuzair

Can't we upgrade our M113 inventory like ACV-15 with the help of Turkey/China??


wikipedia org/wiki/FNSS_ACV-15

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## Signalian

Thoughts regarding APC's in Pakistan Army.

PA operates M-113 and M-113 based AL Talha APC's numbering 2000 or more in total out of which 1600 are M-113 and 400 AL Talha. 

The basic variants of AL-Talha are :

1. Maaz with ATGM 
2. Mouz with SAM
3. Hamza IFV

There are two kinds of engines used in Al-Talha series of AFV's.
1. Detroit Diesel 6V53T, 275 hp
2. KMDB UTD-20, 330 hp

With combat weight of 12.5 Tons, Al Talha is 22-26 hp/Ton. Combat weight means that the APC weighed with fuel topped up, armament and ammo loaded along with full combat load of troops and crew. This weight can however still be increased by adding more armor for protection or steel cage to counter ATGM. 

Limited to only two engines that can fit in engine compartment, the speed and manoeuvrability of Talha can suffer especially if it has to keep up with Al Khalid tanks racing along deserts of Sindh.
Talh with add on armor below.





For reference, US Army used 275 hp M-113 with 750 hp M-60 Patton tank. 

When M1A1 came up, the M-113 couldnt keep up with it so 600 hp M-2 Bradley was paired up with M1A1. Bradley is not only an ATGm carrier (5-7 missiles) but also a turret and 25mm gun and ammo (300+600 rounds) alongwith 7.62mm machine-guns in addition of 3 crew and 6-7 troops. Even with armor upgrades, the 600hp engine of Bradley gives it good cross country performance. Bradley gets 19hp/Ton power to weight ratio.

Maaz is an ATGM carrier while Mouz is a SP SAM AFV. Both will have atleast 1 ready to fire missile and around 10 in storage. Although these missile carriers have to stop to fire their missiles yet to keep up with AK MBT's, a more hp engine is desirable.

AL-Hamza carries a 25mm gun and its said that Hamza is based on Saad, but it has 5 road wheels like Talha. 

The basic PA M-113 variant is A2 version and the ATGM version is M-901 TOW. With a 275 hp engine and armour protection, its hp/ton will also get affected like below.





There are three APC variants in PA inventory which use a bigger engine:

1. Saad
2. Hadeed ARV
3. Sakb ,a logistics vehicle

All have 6 road wheels and a 450 hp Ukrainian engine(some say 400 hp german engine). Unfortunately Saad is not widely produced like AL-Talha. 
SAAD is below.





In my opinion with a 100-130 hp more than AL-Talha and an extra road wheel which gives the vehicle increased internal volume and payload, SAAD would have been a better platform to make APC derivatives. ADD on Armour has become a trend in all AFV's nowadays and SAAD wouldnt have faltered.

SAKB obviously needs more power to pull loads and HADEED, an ARV, also has more power than AL-Talha to pull damaged/destroyed APC's.

In comparison, IA BMP-2 has combat weight of 15.7 tons for a 300 hp engine giving it 19 hp/ton ratio. 

There are reports/rumour about PA getting VN-1 which is is the PLA’s new wheeled armoured personnel carrier and combat loaded with the basic armour fit, weighs 20 tonnes with engine power 440 hp. Its power to weight ratio of 16.5 kW/t enables the 8 x 8 version to climb a 30° slope, cross a 1.8m trench and climb over a 0.55 m vertical obstacle. The vehicle is 8 m long, 3 m wide, is 2.1m high at the top of the hull and has a ground clearance of 400mm. This vehicle carries a modified Ukrainian Shkval 30 x 165mm automatic cannon equipped two-man turret with wire-guided Hong Jian-73C anti-tank guided missiles, although in service it may carry the ‘Universal’ one man turret mounting a 30mm automatic cannon, coaxial 7.62 machine gun, a Hong Jian-73C ATGM launcher and six 76mm smoke dischargers. 





*Tracked Vs Wheeled Comparison.*​
*MOBILITY*
The soil strength, coupled with the vehicle’s characteristic ground pressure, determine a parameter entitled Vehicle Cone Index (VCI), which is a key first-order discriminator of a platform’s mobility. The higher the VCI, or ground pressure, the less mobile the platform becomes.
A vehicle’s mobility is impacted by its traction ability over various soil types (dry, wet, sand, or snow-covered) and its ability to manouver over obstacles, cross gaps, and negotiate varied vegetation. As a general rule of thumb, a lower VCI not only equates to better soft-soil mobility but also indicates better performance on slopes, in sandy terrain, over obstacles/gap crossings and when overriding vegetation. 
From a mobility perspective, tracked vehicles offer the best solution for a versatile platform that is required to operate over diverse terrain, including extremely difficult ground, because tracks inherently provide a greater surface area than wheels, resulting in a lower VCI.

Wheeled vehicles inherently attain faster road speeds and, therefore, offer the best solution where unrestricted mobility is not the primary mission driver and on-road usage exceeds off-road usage. As off-road usage dominates the vehicle’s profile, tracked configurations provide significantly better mission travel times.
When a vehicle’s mission requires off-road usage greater than 60 percent and gross vehicle weight exceeds 10 tons, a tracked configuration is preferred for combat roles and even when the gross vehicle weight exceeds 20 tons and off-road usage remains above 60 percent, a tracked configuration is required to guarantee the best mobility for unrestricted, all-weather tactical operations.

*SURVIVING IN BATTLEFIELD:*

A combat platform’s survivability is dependent on numerous criteria, to include mine and ballistic protection, size/silhouette, and stealthiness. Tracked vehicles, by design, are inherently more compact than wheeled vehicles. The primary reasons for a tracked vehicle’s compactness are reduced suspension clearance, wheel turning clearance, and the absence of multiple transfer cases and drive shafts that are integral to the design of wheeled vehicles,
For a comparable VCI (or ground pressure) at the same gross vehicle weight, wheeled platforms require up to six times more volume for drive train and suspension components than tracked platforms. This results in up to a 28 percent increase in vehicle volume if the same interior volume is maintained making wheeled vehicle a bigger target. 

Additionally, as a combat platform’s size increases, so does the gross vehicle weight (provided the same ballistic and mine protection are maintained), which tends to degrade vehicle mobility and deploy-ability.

In general, wheeled platforms are more vulnerable to small arms fire and grenade, mine, and artillery fragments, due to the inherent weakness of wheeled suspension designs, components, and tires. Wheeled vehicles may now be able to continue movement for limited distances at reduced speeds when tires are punctured by small arms rounds, battlefield debris, or shrapnel, due to the advent of run-flat tires. Run-flat tires typically contain a hard rubber insert (some with nitrogen filled cells) inside the tire. The insert bears no vehicle load until the tire is punctured, at which point the load is transferred to the insert and vehicle movement may continue for a limited distance and speed.

On the plus side, wheeled platforms provide a reduced noise signature while moving, primarily due to less vibration and metal to metal contact on running gear. Improvements in track technology (i.e., Roller Chain Band Track) and decoupled running gear have decreased noise signatures for tracked vehicles, but not to the level attained by wheeled platforms.

*SUPPORT :* 

A combat platform’s support is dependent on numerous factors, to include fuel usage, reliability, and O&S costs. 

Wheeled vehicles traditionally offer better fuel economy due to the reduced friction losses inherent in wheel/tire suspensions and running gear. The better fuel economy translates into smaller on-board fuel storage requirements or greater operating ranges for wheeled platforms. Wheeled vehicles are intrinsically more reliable than tracked vehicles and, therefore, require less maintenance and supply support (spare parts). 
However wheeled vehicles generally have a higher percentage of on-road usage while tracked vehicles incur more off-road usage. Given that wheeled platforms offer better fuel economy and reliability (to an extent), then Operating and Support (O&S) costs are lower than those demonstrated by tracked platforms. This makes wheeled platforms excellent candidates for support roles where overall mileage is high and primarily conducted on road.

*TRACKED Vehicle Advantages:*
1. Route Flexibility
2. Cross country Mobility
3. Traction on slopes.
4. Less volume/more payload
5. Manoeuvrability 
6. Turning Radius
7. Weight Growth Potential
8. Gap and Obstacle Clearing
*
WHEELED vehicle Advantages:*
1. Road Speed
2. Logistics
3. Operating and Support Cost is lesser.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Does anyone have any info about Soviet-era BTR APC's in Pakistani service? So far I've only seen one BTR probably a 60 or 70 in photos, not sure if it's army or police.


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## Dazzler

BTR-60, less than 200 serving in the Army.

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## Hippogryph

We have enough APCs I guess but PA is really under equipped when it comes to IFVs. In my opinion we should buy some AMX-10Ps from KSA and upgrade them locally with Bushmaster IV chain guns etc. According to wikipedia Saudi's have 600 of them in reserve.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

According to Wikipedia PA has M48's and T-55's in reserve. We can convert them to APC's and IFV's similar to what Israel has done to captured T-54/55's resulting in the Achzarit APC.


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## Hippogryph

I'm not sure about the exact numbers but PA have some Chinese WZ551 too for UN peacekeeping missions.

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## Army research

We do have t55 and m48 but never trust wiki as fanboys edit it


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## Hippogryph

Logical Pakistani said:


> According to Wikipedia PA has M48's and T-55's in reserve. We can convert them to APC's and IFV's similar to what Israel has done to captured T-54/55's resulting in the Achzarit APC.


Yes! PA have around 300 M48A5 and 50+ T-55 in reserve but they will accompany our frontline MBTs if needed in a large scale war.

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## Hippogryph

Army research said:


> We do have t55 and m48 but never trust wiki as fanboys edit it


M48 was our frontline MBT during the wars of 1965 and 1971 and around 100 T-55s were given to PA as aid by Soviets somewhere between 1965-1970.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

A certain source also states 282 modernised T-55 sold to PA by Serbia, can anyone confirm this.



Hippogryph said:


> Yes! PA have around 300 M48A5 and 50+ T-55 in reserve but they will accompany our frontline MBTs if needed in a large scale war.


What capabilities can obsolete cold-war era offer.


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## Army research

Logical Pakistani said:


> A certain source also states 282 modernised T-55 sold to PA by Serbia, can anyone confirm this.
> 
> 
> What capabilities can obsolete cold-war era offer.





Hippogryph said:


> M48 was our frontline MBT during the wars of 1965 and 1971 and around 100 T-55s were given to PA as aid by Soviets somewhere between 1965-1970.


They fill gaps and I said generally don't trust wiki


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## Hippogryph

Logical Pakistani said:


> A certain source also states 282 modernised T-55 sold to PA by Serbia, can anyone confirm this.
> 
> 
> What capabilities can obsolete cold-war era offer.


Well Sir capabilities is not everything, There is a big factor of numbers when you talk about Indo-Pak theatre of war. India possesses couple of hundreds of T-55s in their reserves and so do us.


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## DavidSling

Logical Pakistani said:


> According to Wikipedia PA has M48's and T-55's in reserve. We can convert them to APC's and IFV's similar to what Israel has done to captured T-54/55's resulting in the Achzarit APC.


Achzarit is a nice APC, ofcourse not as good as Namer or Eitan , that count as one of the best in the world due to their advance protection, aps and more, but still, an affordable one


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Hippogryph said:


> Well Sir capabilities is not everything, There is a big factor of numbers when you talk about Indo-Pak theatre of war. India possesses couple of hundreds of T-55s in their reserves and so do us.


I wouldn't agree with you there. Iraq had a very large number of out-dated AFV's in the gulf war but they suffered immense losses; >6000 armored vehicles destroyed when facing coalition tanks.


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## Hippogryph

Logical Pakistani said:


> I wouldn't agree with you there. Iraq had a very large number of out-dated AFV's in the gulf war but they suffered immense losses; >6000 armored vehicles destroyed when facing coalition tanks.


Read carefully Sir I said "Indo-Pak theatre of war", Both India and Pakistan have advance 3rd generation tanks but they can utilize their reserves too if needed to fill operational gaps in a large scale war. It doesn't mean that our reserved Pattons will be going head to head against T-90s.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Hippogryph said:


> Read carefully Sir I said "Indo-Pak theatre of war"


 sorry my bad. Btw what variant of the M48 do we have?


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## Hippogryph

Logical Pakistani said:


> sorry my bad. Btw what variant of the M48 do we have?


M48A5 I guess.

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## Abdul Majid Saleem

Hippogryph said:


> Well Sir capabilities is not everything, There is a big factor of numbers when you talk about Indo-Pak theatre of war. India possesses couple of hundreds of T-55s in their reserves and so do us.



I agree that the factor of number will be very much important during the war period only if both sides have equal endurance and understanding the value of serving the nation, keeping in view according to their religious ideology. 

Here the next party is actually on job to feed their families, rather than any serious devotions towards their country.


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## Army research

They will fill reserves and be sent to defensive positions mainly to counter old enemy tanks or infantry assault

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Logical Pakistani said:


> A certain source also states 282 modernised T-55 sold to PA by Serbia, can anyone confirm this.
> 
> 
> What capabilities can obsolete cold-war era offer.



That was bullshyt... specially when the army itself is replacing the more modern type-59s... with AZs or simplying phasing them out.



uziuzair said:


> Can't we upgrade our M113 inventory like ACV-15 with the help of Turkey/China??
> 
> 
> wikipedia org/wiki/FNSS_ACV-15



Built in the 90s... never went into mass production.






https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-army-apc-inventory.87330/page-5#post-4471822




Logical Pakistani said:


> I wouldn't agree with you there. Iraq had a very large number of out-dated AFV's in the gulf war but they suffered immense losses; >6000 armored vehicles destroyed when facing coalition tanks.



And an untrained army along with it...

The vehicles were also monkey models.. and destruction was mostly due to coalition air bombardment...



Hippogryph said:


> Read carefully Sir I said "Indo-Pak theatre of war", Both India and Pakistan have advance 3rd generation tanks but they can utilize their reserves too if needed to fill operational gaps in a large scale war. It doesn't mean that our reserved Pattons will be going head to head against T-90s.


They are gone for good.. rotting...

And nobody is going to use tanks firing shitty 90mm rounds which are also no longer in production.

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Italy has delivered nearly 650 M113 APC’S to the Pakistan Army as a gift from their excess stocks including VCC1 and VCC2 versions.
> Meanwhile the US has supplied 369 M113 APC’S from their EDA stocks during 2014.


 
1000 new M-113 we can raise 3 new mechanized Divisions ^^

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sulman Badshah said:


> HIT MRAP had a bad design/ not future oriented/ and was providing too less protection against IED's



Ironically still being marketed... Guess PA didn't take it..

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## Signalian

Hippogryph said:


> Yes! PA have around 300 M48A5 and 50+ T-55 in reserve but they will accompany our frontline MBTs if needed in a large scale war.


they are in reserve to replace tank lost in combat to bring regiment back to full strength



Ulla said:


> 1000 new M-113 we can raise 3 new mechanized Divisions ^^


also acquire associated tanks, artillery, air defence, communications, engineering and other support vehicles 



Logical Pakistani said:


> According to Wikipedia PA has M48's and T-55's in reserve. We can convert them to APC's and IFV's similar to what Israel has done to captured T-54/55's resulting in the Achzarit APC.


More ATGM carriers are required.

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## Inception-06

Sarge said:


> More ATGM carriers are required.




I like the Idea, using old Tanks as a ATGM firing platform, high mobility, protection and the ability to kill Tanks altogether, and that for a low price.

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> I like the Idea, using old Tanks as a ATGM firing platform, high mobility, protection and the ability to kill Tanks altogether, and that for a low price.


PA does need more ATGM carriers.

M-113 armed with 12.7mm is a sitting duck if encounters a BMP-2 with its 30mm cannon and konkurs/Nag ATGM. 
M-113 can be saved by dismounting the infantry squad and using RPG-7 or ATGM like Baktar Shikan to counter BMP-2 if time and tactics permit otherwise PA MBT will have a monumental task of not only protecting PA M-113's from IA BMP-2 but also engaging IA MBT. 

Its better to relieve the burden on PA MBT by only exploiting weak points in enemy lines like artillery, communication, command and control HQ's, supply and ammo positions etc and let the PA ATGM teams take out enemy MBT and BMP-2.

If PA MBT's are engaging IA MBT's and face losses then the attacking power or offensive strength of the PA Armoured Division is weakened for further offensives against IA as its striking ability will diminish and it will be forced to go on the defensive for the rest of the war unless equivalent reinforcements arrive. Reserve tanks like M-48A5's replacing AK losses will not give the Armoured Division its striking punch back but only restore its numbers for a defensive stance. AK replacing AK losses will do the job.

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## Inception-06

Sarge said:


> PA does need more ATGM carriers.
> 
> M-113 armed with 12.7mm is a sitting duck if encounters a BMP-2 with its 30mm cannon and konkurs/Nag ATGM.
> M-113 can be saved by dismounting the infantry squad and using RPG-7 or ATGM like Baktar Shikan to counter BMP-2 if time and tactics permit otherwise PA MBT will have a monumental task of not only protecting PA M-113's from IA BMP-2 but also engaging IA MBT.
> 
> Its better to relieve the burden on PA MBT by only exploiting weak points in enemy lines like artillery, communication, command and control HQ's, supply and ammo positions etc and let the PA ATGM teams take out enemy MBT and BMP-2.
> 
> If PA MBT's are engaging IA MBT's and face losses then the attacking power or offensive strength of the PA Armoured Division is weakened for further offensives against IA as its striking ability will diminish and it will be forced to go on the defensive for the rest of the war unless equivalent reinforcements arrive. Reserve tanks like M-48A5's replacing AK losses will not give the Armoured Division its striking punch back but only restore its numbers for a defensive stance. AK replacing AK losses will do the job.




I totally agree with you, I am writing since years about the topic of indian BMP armadas and the M-113, the indian Army has 2000 BMPS IFV while we have this so called "battel taxis" ! Only solution is to upgrade all M113 with additional armour and a turret equipped with board gun ! There are many designes and solution, I dont knopw whats the doctrine of Pakistan Army:"travel with a taxi to the battelfield and engage the enemy with the MG-3,RPG-7 and 60mm WW2 Mortar" ah yes of course may be you will get also fire support from the 12.7mm behinde you" good luck !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> I totally agree with you, I am writing since years about the topic of indian BMP armadas and the M-113, the indian Army has 2000 BMPS IFV while we have this so called "battel taxis" ! Only solution is to upgrade all M113 with additional armour and a turret equipped with board gun ! There are many designes and solution, I dont knopw whats the doctrine of Pakistan Army:"travel with a taxi to the battelfield and engage the enemy with the MG-3,RPG-7 and 60mm WW2 Mortar" ah yes of course may be you will get also fire support from the 12.7mm behinde you" good luck !


Some actually have additional armour... more cam be done though:

some examples














This add on armour example should be followed though:

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## Zarvan

Ulla said:


> I totally agree with you, I am writing since years about the topic of indian BMP armadas and the M-113, the indian Army has 2000 BMPS IFV while we have this so called "battel taxis" ! Only solution is to upgrade all M113 with additional armour and a turret equipped with board gun ! There are many designes and solution, I dont knopw whats the doctrine of Pakistan Army:"travel with a taxi to the battelfield and engage the enemy with the MG-3,RPG-7 and 60mm WW2 Mortar" ah yes of course may be you will get also fire support from the 12.7mm behinde you" good luck !







I hope to see this in Pakistan Arsenal soon this AJAX IFV from UK man this is solid and seriously equipped to not only transport troops but also give the fire support which they need

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Some actually have additional armour... more cam be done though:
> 
> some examples
> 
> View attachment 343296
> View attachment 343297
> View attachment 343298
> 
> 
> 
> This add on armour example should be followed though:
> 
> 
> View attachment 343299




Yes my Friend I know this picture also very well, but talk about a turret with a board gun ? Dont understand why the M-113 with the 20mm board gun add armour model from the 90s which you very often mentioned here, was not accepted by the Army ?

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Some actually have additional armour... more cam be done though:
> 
> some examples
> 
> View attachment 343296
> View attachment 343297
> View attachment 343298
> 
> 
> 
> This add on armour example should be followed though:
> 
> 
> View attachment 343299



the add on armour slows down the APC.no use in armoured warfare. only COIN

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## mkiyani

i wish PA should improve APC and IFV make use of LCD screen inside to get better view of outside envirnoment with 360 degree views and use computer tech in it for collision, Electromagnetic wave protection for self protection jamming signals.. IED or mine protections controls and so on.. airless tyres and covered tracks should also be considered..

they should mix up tech from different APC and IFVs from around the world and incorporate it into our vehicles.. its not that hard to improve it by using parts from different available vehicles and companies...


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## Army research

What we need is that to develop on saad in mech bat we need dedicated fighter ifv made on saad with help from eg turkey followed by armoured apc and atleast 3 6 dedicated atgm for which t55 can be used

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## Rocky rock

*Source:Geetyimages






















*

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## Hippogryph

What about Dragoon APC folks. I heard that HIT is producing it under licence.


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## Rocky rock

Hippogryph said:


> What about Dragoon APC folks. I heard that HIT is producing it under licence.



Yea here it is being Built by HIT 6 for Airport Security Personals.

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> I totally agree with you, I am writing since years about the topic of indian BMP armadas and the M-113, the indian Army has 2000 BMPS IFV while we have this so called "battel taxis" ! Only solution is to upgrade all M113 with additional armour and a turret equipped with board gun ! There are many designes and solution, I dont knopw whats the doctrine of Pakistan Army:"travel with a taxi to the battelfield and engage the enemy with the MG-3,RPG-7 and 60mm WW2 Mortar" ah yes of course may be you will get also fire support from the 12.7mm behinde you" good luck !



yaar i doubt that M-113 will come in direct contact with BMP-2. M-113 will dismount infantry and move rear to a secure location.

About the 25mm or 30mm cannon on IFV. It can hardly damage an MBT. Its good for suppressing fire but over-kill against infantry. 12.7mm can do the job also. But 25mm can seriously damage an M-113 and other light vehicles.
The 12.7mm on M-113 is actually for air defence, lol.

The proper weapons for taking out a BMP-2 or T-90 are ATGM and HEAT/SABOT round. Obviously M-113 cannot mount a 125mm gun to fire HEAT/SABOT round. 
It can be mounted with TOW-2 and still be armed with 12.7mm. But then it cannot carry more troops due to TOW-2 crew and storage area of missiles.

Its best to use a mixture of troop carrying M-113 and TOW mounted M-113 in MIB's.

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## Fenrir

Sarge said:


> Obviously M-113 cannot mount a 125mm gun to fire HEAT/SABOT round.



Maybe not that caliber, but coming close. The M113 has been mounted with a 90mm turret:










And a modification called M113 STUG packed a 105mm cannon (howitzer, not tank gun) into the frame:





The chassis is pretty versatile and has been fitted as both a ballistic missile and air defense missile launch platform as well, so it's not as if you couldn't rig a large caliber turret to the frame.










It's more of a question of the usefulness of such an arrangement, which being a light skinned vehicle, is suspect except as a fire support option like Stryker:





If it needs to engage armored vehicles, it's best used as a fire support option with a 120mm mortar or TOW, as seen in the Hammerhead configuration:





It's best to just keep these vehicles out of fire anyway. Unlike say, Warrior or Bradley, they aren't particularly armored beyond light aluminum, which isn't very resistant to larger caliber rounds, let alone modern explosive devices.

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## DavidSling

Rocky rock said:


> *Source:Geetyimages
> 
> View attachment 343415
> View attachment 343416
> View attachment 343417
> View attachment 343418
> View attachment 343419
> View attachment 343420
> View attachment 343421
> *


Israel learned it the hard way that those M-113 should be replaced ASAP.
Even with APS, those things are just an easy target


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## Inception-06

Sarge said:


> yaar i doubt that M-113 will come in direct contact with BMP-2. M-113 will dismount infantry and move rear to a secure location.
> 
> About the 25mm or 30mm cannon on IFV. It can hardly damage an MBT. Its good for suppressing fire but over-kill against infantry. 12.7mm can do the job also. But 25mm can seriously damage an M-113 and other light vehicles.
> The 12.7mm on M-113 is actually for air defence, lol.
> 
> The proper weapons for taking out a BMP-2 or T-90 are ATGM and HEAT/SABOT round. Obviously M-113 cannot mount a 125mm gun to fire HEAT/SABOT round.
> It can be mounted with TOW-2 and still be armed with 12.7mm. But then it cannot carry more troops due to TOW-2 crew and storage area of missiles.
> 
> Its best to use a mixture of troop carrying M-113 and TOW mounted M-113 in MIB's.



Coming back to your previous Idea to rebuild and upgrade old Type-59 Tanks to ATGM launchers, thats a Cost-cutting measure ! check that here:



:

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## Army research

Ulla said:


> Coming back to your previous Idea to rebuild and upgrade old Type-59 Tanks to ATGM launchers, thats a Cost-cutting measure ! check that here:
> View attachment 343617
> :
> 
> View attachment 343616


That in a mech bat with another vehicle with 105 mm would devastate enemy infantry and bmp

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## Inception-06

Army research said:


> That in a mech bat with another vehicle with 105 mm would devastate enemy infantry and bmp



Yaar Bakthar SHIKAN ISKO MOUNT KARDO, it will blow deep holes in indian offensive lines, I love that Idea ! Thx @Sarge great discussion with you and the other Members here, I appreciate it !

regards

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> Yaar Bakthar SHIKAN ISKO MOUNT KARDO, it will blow deep holes in indian offensive lines, I love that Idea ! Thx @Sarge great discussion with you and the other Members here, I appreciate it !
> 
> regards



Baktar Shikan has some limitations and good points . 

The good points are having a tandem warhead to beat ERA and spaced armour. The operation is easy and in some ways similar to TOW which PA already operated. It has anti-jamming capability also. 

Limitations are that It is fired when stationary, as far as i know. Secondly, its not fire and forget. So the missile operator will stay engaged till the target is destroyed as he has to guide the missile to the target keeping target in his cross hairs.

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## Army research

Sarge said:


> Baktar Shikan has some limitations and good points .
> 
> The good points are having a tandem warhead to beat ERA and spaced armour. The operation is easy and in some ways similar to TOW which PA already operated. It has anti-jamming capability also.
> 
> Limitations are that It is fired when stationary, as far as i know. Secondly, its not fire and forget. So the missile operator will stay engaged till the target is destroyed as he has to guide the missile to the target keeping target in his cross hairs.


And untill target destroyed that tank can kill him

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sarge said:


> the add on armour slows down the APC.no use in armoured warfare. only COIN





Ulla said:


> I totally agree with you, I am writing since years about the topic of indian BMP armadas and the M-113, the indian Army has 2000 BMPS IFV while we have this so called "battel taxis" ! Only solution is to upgrade all M113 with additional armour and a turret equipped with board gun ! There are many designes and solution, I dont knopw whats the doctrine of Pakistan Army:"travel with a taxi to the battelfield and engage the enemy with the MG-3,RPG-7 and 60mm WW2 Mortar" ah yes of course may be you will get also fire support from the 12.7mm behinde you" good luck !





Army research said:


> That in a mech bat with another vehicle with 105 mm would devastate enemy infantry and bmp



PAs Talha or M-113 with additional armour...







Wishes granted lol.

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## fatman17

The abrams mbt is a awesome tank but it failed in our desert conditions. just bcuz something looks "awesome", dosnt mean it is viable option for Pakistan. The 113 is a tried and tested platform in our conditions.

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## Army research

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> PAs Talha or M-113 with additional armour...
> 
> View attachment 343859
> 
> 
> Wishes granted lol.


Sir that is a saad apc I'm sure about it look at grenade launcher above and the front armour , also saad has a bigger engine so adding more armour is viable where as it slows m113 talha

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## hassan1

name?

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## ghazi52

and this one..Islamabad dharna

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## Sulman Badshah

hassan1 said:


> name?
> View attachment 347864


BDRM

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## Penguin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Built in the 90s... never went into mass production.


Used first by the Netherlands (YPR-765. First order 1975 for 880. Total order 2,079 )
Philippines also received 45 vehicles in 1979
In 1979, Belgium placed an order for 514 similar AIFV-B, delivered in 1982
Turkey selected the AIFV in 1989, a contract for 1,698 vehicles with the first 285 hulls produced in Belgium and the remaining vehicles produced entirely in Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFV

That's 2,079+45+514+1,698=4,336 units.

Chili, Jordan and Egypt bought units from Netherlands and Belgium, when these phased many out after the demise of the Soviet Union. Lebanon and Morocco got units from Belgium.
Malaysia got ACV-300s from Turkey and MIFV from South Korea (which produces a similar vehicle called Korean Infantry Fighting Vehicle)
UAE got ACV-300 from Turkey

Turkey produced the similar ACV-15 vehicle (2,945 units produced)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNSS_ACV-15

South Korea produces a similar KIFV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K200_KIFV (2,383 units produced)

In all, over these variants: 9,664 units produced. 
Nah, never mass produced.

YPR-765





AIFV-B-C25





ACV-300
http://www.***************/pictures/data/3776/medium/DSC00536.JPG

KIFV

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## Penguin

ACV-300

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## Zarvan

*Unveiling ceremony of Pakistan’s First Indigenous APC by the Exhibitor Heavy Industries Taxila, (HIT)*

IDEAS 2016 schedule has mentioned this. Now if it turns out to be Dragoon. I am going to do something with these HIT guys.

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## Tipu7

http://defence-blog.com/news/china-...-that-looks-similar-to-russian-kornet-em.html

@Sarge @Ulla

Sine you are discussing ATGM systems,
A *rumor* suggest that Pakistan is looking to replace its fleet of 105mm RR Jeeps with YJ2080 Jeeps armed with Sabre ER ATGM.











Total 170 Units.

We are still operating Recoil less Rifle mounted Jeeps in couple of anti tank regiments.

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## Indus Falcon

Tipu7 said:


> http://defence-blog.com/news/china-...-that-looks-similar-to-russian-kornet-em.html
> 
> @Sarge @Ulla
> 
> Sine you are discussing ATGM systems,
> A rumor suggest that Pakistan is looking to replace its fleet of 105mm RR Jeeps with YJ2080 Jeeps armed with Sabre ER ATGM.
> 
> View attachment 352981
> 
> 
> View attachment 352982
> 
> 
> Total 170 Units.
> 
> We are still operating Recoil less mounted Jeeps
> View attachment 352985


@DESERT FIGHTER Comments?


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> http://defence-blog.com/news/china-...-that-looks-similar-to-russian-kornet-em.html
> 
> @Sarge @Ulla
> 
> Sine you are discussing ATGM systems,
> A *rumor* suggest that Pakistan is looking to replace its fleet of 105mm RR Jeeps with YJ2080 Jeeps armed with Sabre ER ATGM.
> 
> View attachment 352981
> 
> 
> View attachment 352982
> 
> 
> Total 170 Units.
> 
> We are still operating Recoil less Rifle mounted Jeeps in couple of anti tank regiments.
> View attachment 352985



YJ2080 is actually a Russian 4X4 (GAZ) which is produced under license by China. Its more of an APC than a light Anti-tank platform.

Havent seen in PA that ATGM carrier is also carrying troops into battle, though the platform maybe same. Thats probably because seats are removed to accommodate ammunition rounds. When M-113 were inducted they were used as APC and then ATGM carrying M-113 were procured, the M-901.

If the idea is to provide protection to troops to fire ATGM's from inside the vehicle, then it seems a good move. RR jeeps and Green Arrow Defenders are open top 4X4. They offer no protection against light arms and fragments of artillery and mortar fire.






If YJ2080 is actually procured then its a great initiative. It will be replacing wheeled platform with wheels. It can also be configured as an APC for troop carrying. The hull isnt V-shaped, so probably not a perfect COIN vehicle but even in threatened zones it definitely provides more protection than Toyota pickups etc that PA uses.

Mohafiz vehicle also is the same category and its has three variants.But looks like PA isnt interested in local vehicles for ATGM platform.

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> *Unveiling ceremony of Pakistan’s First Indigenous APC by the Exhibitor Heavy Industries Taxila, (HIT)*
> 
> IDEAS 2016 schedule has mentioned this. Now if it turns out to be Dragoon. I am going to do something with these HIT guys.



Good Idea !



Sarge said:


> YJ2080 is actually a Russian 4X4 (GAZ) which is produced under license by China. Its more of an APC than a light Anti-tank platform.
> 
> Havent seen in PA that ATGM carrier is also carrying troops into battle, though the platform maybe same. Thats probably because seats are removed to accommodate ammunition rounds. When M-113 were inducted they were used as APC and then ATGM carrying M-113 were procured, the M-901.
> 
> If the idea is to provide protection to troops to fire ATGM's from inside the vehicle, then it seems a good move. RR jeeps and Green Arrow Defenders are open top 4X4. They offer no protection against light arms and fragments of artillery and mortar fire.
> 
> View attachment 353052
> 
> 
> If YJ2080 is actually procured then its a great initiative. It will be replacing wheeled platform with wheels. It can also be configured as an APC for troop carrying. The hull isnt V-shaped, so probably not a perfect COIN vehicle but even in threatened zones it definitely provides more protection than Toyota pickups etc that PA uses.
> 
> Mohafiz vehicle also is the same category and its has three variants.But looks like PA isnt interested in local vehicles for ATGM platform.



Excellent summary !

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## Zarvan

HIT is going to keep disappointing us. They can't even come up with AL KHALID II in past 6 years. So time to get these From Turkey so HIT an focus on coming up with AK 2. @Ulla

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> HIT is going to keep disappointing us. They can't even come up with AL KHALID II in past 6 years. So time to get these From Turkey so HIT an focus on coming up with AK 2. @Ulla



Maybe HIT doese not have internet connection ? To see PDF ?

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## fatman17

105s have been very useful in fighting militancy in fata.

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## fatman17

They still have a role to play in hilly terrain

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## Tipu7

In hilly terrain only.
Not in Plains & Desert.


fatman17 said:


> They still have a role to play in hilly terrain





Sarge said:


> YJ2080 is actually a Russian 4X4 (GAZ) which is produced under license by China. Its more of an APC than a light Anti-tank platform.
> 
> Havent seen in PA that ATGM carrier is also carrying troops into battle, though the platform maybe same. Thats probably because seats are removed to accommodate ammunition rounds. When M-113 were inducted they were used as APC and then ATGM carrying M-113 were procured, the M-901.
> 
> If the idea is to provide protection to troops to fire ATGM's from inside the vehicle, then it seems a good move. RR jeeps and Green Arrow Defenders are open top 4X4. They offer no protection against light arms and fragments of artillery and mortar fire.
> 
> View attachment 353052
> 
> 
> If YJ2080 is actually procured then its a great initiative. It will be replacing wheeled platform with wheels. It can also be configured as an APC for troop carrying. The hull isnt V-shaped, so probably not a perfect COIN vehicle but even in threatened zones it definitely provides more protection than Toyota pickups etc that PA uses.
> 
> Mohafiz vehicle also is the same category and its has three variants.But looks like PA isnt interested in local vehicles for ATGM platform.


If you look inside, there is no room for personnel. Crew of four sit on front seats and operate ATGM tracking & firing automatically. Reloading however is manual. But Still 8 ATGM are good shot..... it's a dedicated anti tank jeep which offer protection against light arms too, unlike our "sports jeeps" which are wide open with Mounted ATGM weapon and offer very limited fire power and ZERO protection for operators......

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> If you look inside, there is no room for personnel. Crew of four sit on front seats and operate ATGM tracking & firing automatically. Reloading however is manual. But Still 8 ATGM are good shot..... it's a dedicated anti tank jeep which offer protection against light arms too, unlike our "sports jeeps" which are wide open with Mounted ATGM weapon and offer very limited fire power and ZERO protection for operators......



I did look inside. There are seats at back for carrying troops.

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## Tipu7

This one .....






Sarge said:


> I did look inside. There are seats at back for carrying troops.
> 
> View attachment 353170

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## monitor

* SidePRO-RPG armor  *

The Swiss company RUAG is offering a wider array of add-on armor types for enhancing the protection of older combat vehicles. It offers three main families of protection products: under the SidePRO brand, armor protection systems for protection the vertical aspects of a vehicle (so the front, sides and rear) are offered, while the RoofPRO brand includes protection systems for the vehicle roof. Lastly the MinePRO brand contains protection solutions for wheeled and tracked vehicles against IEDs, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines.
Aside of SidePRO-KE/IED, which provides ballistic protection against armor-piercing ammunition, explosively formed penetrators (EFPs) and fragments from improvised explosive devices (IEDs), the SidePRO family of products also includes the SidePRO-Lasso anti-RPG net, the SidePRO-ATR armor modules for heavy vehicles and the SidePRO-RPG passive armor. SidePRO-KE/IED requires at least 7 milimetres of steel armor for backing and apparently consists of conventional ceramic armor or (spaced) metal armor depending on application.


The most interesting offer from RUAG's armor protection portfolio seems to be the SidePRO-RPG passive armor system; for all the other armor types there seem to be similar solutions offered by other manufacturers; for example the SidePRO-Lasso armor is nearly identical to AmSafe's Tarian RPG net, while SidePRO-ATR appears to be very similar to the heavy AMAP solution used on the Leopard 2 Evolution and other vehicles.




M113 APC fitted with SidePRO-RPG

The SidePRO-RPG armor modules are less than 250 mm thick; this is broadly comparable to other passive and reactive armor solutions against RPGs. For example the original Chobham armor package developed as upgrade to the Chieftain tank included 204 mm thick side armor modules consisting of spaced steel plates and plastics layers. The SidePRO-RPG armor provides protection against the RPG-7 firing the PG-7V, the PG-7VM or the PG-7VL ammunition. The PG-7VL is the most capable of the mentioned ammunition types, using a 93 mm diameter warhead to penetrate up to 500 mm of armor steel. However it should be noted that all of the RPG-7 rounds mentioned in the SidePRO-RPG marketing material by RUAG use single stage shaped charge warheads, not a single one is using a tandem warhead arrangment. This implies that the SidePRO-RPG armor is not capable of defeating RPGs with tandem shaped charge warheads. Given a thickness of less than 250 mm, the SidePRO-RPG armor reaches a thickness efficiency of up to 2 or more against RPGs with a single shaped charge warhead. This seems to be quite good performance, although not necessarily better than other passive (non-explosive) armor systems against RPGs.


The SidePRO-RPG armor has an areal density of only 45 kilograms per square-metre, which is equivalent to a 5.7 mm thick steel plate! Slat armor (also known as cage armor and bar armor) can be slightly lighter with a weight of only 25 kg/m² when using lightweight aluminium alloys, while flexbile net armor such as SidePRO-Lasso and the Tarian RPG-net can weigh less than 20 kg/m². However the latter two types of armor are known to fail on a regular basis and provide protection against RPGs in only between 50 to 65 percent of all cases. In the other cases the penetration of the RPG is nearly unaffected by the slat/net armor. The SidePRO-RPG armor seems to not suffer from the same issues due to a completely different design.

Defeating a RPG-7 firing a PG-7VL round with 500 mm penetration seems nearly impossible, when the weight of the armor equals to only 5.7 mm steel per metre. Essentially the armor has to provide about 88 times as much protection per weight then armor steel (if one ignores that the base armor might be required to absorb some leftover penetration capabilities of the liner fragments)... this is far beyond the capabilities of most explosive reactive armors (ERA), which usually reaches only about 20 times the protection of an equally heavy steel plate against shaped charges. Slat armor can reach a higher mass efficiency by cutting the fuze wires of a RPG and then crushing the warhead. SidePRO-RPG however is not working in the same manner. So how is this light-weight armor capable of stopping RPGs?





The answer to this question is given in a number of patents from RUAG. Apparently the SidePRO-RPG armor modules consists of an array of metal spikes, which are evenly spaced along the armor module and slightly less than 250 mm long. The distance between the spikes is smaller than the warhead diameter, so that multiple spikes are guaranteed to damage the RPG projectile. There are different options on how the spikes actually work; most likely they prevent the shaped charge jet to properly form, disturbing the metal liner when it collapses after the explosive filler detonates. In tests of similar armor concept against a shaped charge artillery submuntion, which was capable of penetrating 200 mm armor steel, a single thin rubber spike disturbing the jet fromation reduced the penetration to only 3 to 25 milimetres, depending on the spike location. Given that in case of SidePRO-RPG multiple spikes are expected to interfere with the jet fromation, the protection provided by it should be even higher. Armor based on this principle is used on the German Panzerhaubitze 2000 and the Puma IFV to protect the roof against artillery submunitions.
Alternatively the metal spikes might be capable of piercing through the metal liner, before the fuze is triggered. This would lead to a great reduction in penetration capability, a number of hardkill active protection systems rely on piercing the warhead/liner of RPGs (via metal fragments) in order to reduce their penetration performance to a minimum. However given that the metal spike length is limited to 250 mm and the in-built standoff of the PG-7VL at the center section of the warhead is more than that, this seems rather improbable.

Furthermore the armor module contains a crumple shield made of a polymer (i.e. plastic) and is covered by some sort of thin ballistic foil, metal or plastic. An optional layer of perforated armor can be installed inside of the module, which provides protection against heavy machine gun ammunitions or smaller medium calibre rounds, depending on the existing base armor.

RUAG's armor is an interesting concept for upgrading older vehicles, which can only support a limited amout of additional weight, without adopting slat or net armor. The armor has been tested on the M113 armored personnel carrier (APC) and has been showcased on the APC version of the French VBCI 8x8 vehicle. Both these vehicles have rather limited amounts of base armor.

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## Mick

Nice to see VCC-1 (Italian improved M113) operational with Pak Army.
This vehicle sports Israeli additional armour .

I have also seen (probably at pag.23) a pic of a VCC2 with a different (italian made) type of additional amour (that with many holes!)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

monitor said:


> * SidePRO-RPG armor  *
> 
> The Swiss company RUAG is offering a wider array of add-on armor types for enhancing the protection of older combat vehicles. It offers three main families of protection products: under the SidePRO brand, armor protection systems for protection the vertical aspects of a vehicle (so the front, sides and rear) are offered, while the RoofPRO brand includes protection systems for the vehicle roof. Lastly the MinePRO brand contains protection solutions for wheeled and tracked vehicles against IEDs, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines.
> Aside of SidePRO-KE/IED, which provides ballistic protection against armor-piercing ammunition, explosively formed penetrators (EFPs) and fragments from improvised explosive devices (IEDs), the SidePRO family of products also includes the SidePRO-Lasso anti-RPG net, the SidePRO-ATR armor modules for heavy vehicles and the SidePRO-RPG passive armor. SidePRO-KE/IED requires at least 7 milimetres of steel armor for backing and apparently consists of conventional ceramic armor or (spaced) metal armor depending on application.
> 
> 
> The most interesting offer from RUAG's armor protection portfolio seems to be the SidePRO-RPG passive armor system; for all the other armor types there seem to be similar solutions offered by other manufacturers; for example the SidePRO-Lasso armor is nearly identical to AmSafe's Tarian RPG net, while SidePRO-ATR appears to be very similar to the heavy AMAP solution used on the Leopard 2 Evolution and other vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M113 APC fitted with SidePRO-RPG
> 
> The SidePRO-RPG armor modules are less than 250 mm thick; this is broadly comparable to other passive and reactive armor solutions against RPGs. For example the original Chobham armor package developed as upgrade to the Chieftain tank included 204 mm thick side armor modules consisting of spaced steel plates and plastics layers. The SidePRO-RPG armor provides protection against the RPG-7 firing the PG-7V, the PG-7VM or the PG-7VL ammunition. The PG-7VL is the most capable of the mentioned ammunition types, using a 93 mm diameter warhead to penetrate up to 500 mm of armor steel. However it should be noted that all of the RPG-7 rounds mentioned in the SidePRO-RPG marketing material by RUAG use single stage shaped charge warheads, not a single one is using a tandem warhead arrangment. This implies that the SidePRO-RPG armor is not capable of defeating RPGs with tandem shaped charge warheads. Given a thickness of less than 250 mm, the SidePRO-RPG armor reaches a thickness efficiency of up to 2 or more against RPGs with a single shaped charge warhead. This seems to be quite good performance, although not necessarily better than other passive (non-explosive) armor systems against RPGs.
> 
> 
> The SidePRO-RPG armor has an areal density of only 45 kilograms per square-metre, which is equivalent to a 5.7 mm thick steel plate! Slat armor (also known as cage armor and bar armor) can be slightly lighter with a weight of only 25 kg/m² when using lightweight aluminium alloys, while flexbile net armor such as SidePRO-Lasso and the Tarian RPG-net can weigh less than 20 kg/m². However the latter two types of armor are known to fail on a regular basis and provide protection against RPGs in only between 50 to 65 percent of all cases. In the other cases the penetration of the RPG is nearly unaffected by the slat/net armor. The SidePRO-RPG armor seems to not suffer from the same issues due to a completely different design.
> 
> Defeating a RPG-7 firing a PG-7VL round with 500 mm penetration seems nearly impossible, when the weight of the armor equals to only 5.7 mm steel per metre. Essentially the armor has to provide about 88 times as much protection per weight then armor steel (if one ignores that the base armor might be required to absorb some leftover penetration capabilities of the liner fragments)... this is far beyond the capabilities of most explosive reactive armors (ERA), which usually reaches only about 20 times the protection of an equally heavy steel plate against shaped charges. Slat armor can reach a higher mass efficiency by cutting the fuze wires of a RPG and then crushing the warhead. SidePRO-RPG however is not working in the same manner. So how is this light-weight armor capable of stopping RPGs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to this question is given in a number of patents from RUAG. Apparently the SidePRO-RPG armor modules consists of an array of metal spikes, which are evenly spaced along the armor module and slightly less than 250 mm long. The distance between the spikes is smaller than the warhead diameter, so that multiple spikes are guaranteed to damage the RPG projectile. There are different options on how the spikes actually work; most likely they prevent the shaped charge jet to properly form, disturbing the metal liner when it collapses after the explosive filler detonates. In tests of similar armor concept against a shaped charge artillery submuntion, which was capable of penetrating 200 mm armor steel, a single thin rubber spike disturbing the jet fromation reduced the penetration to only 3 to 25 milimetres, depending on the spike location. Given that in case of SidePRO-RPG multiple spikes are expected to interfere with the jet fromation, the protection provided by it should be even higher. Armor based on this principle is used on the German Panzerhaubitze 2000 and the Puma IFV to protect the roof against artillery submunitions.
> Alternatively the metal spikes might be capable of piercing through the metal liner, before the fuze is triggered. This would lead to a great reduction in penetration capability, a number of hardkill active protection systems rely on piercing the warhead/liner of RPGs (via metal fragments) in order to reduce their penetration performance to a minimum. However given that the metal spike length is limited to 250 mm and the in-built standoff of the PG-7VL at the center section of the warhead is more than that, this seems rather improbable.
> 
> Furthermore the armor module contains a crumple shield made of a polymer (i.e. plastic) and is covered by some sort of thin ballistic foil, metal or plastic. An optional layer of perforated armor can be installed inside of the module, which provides protection against heavy machine gun ammunitions or smaller medium calibre rounds, depending on the existing base armor.
> 
> RUAG's armor is an interesting concept for upgrading older vehicles, which can only support a limited amout of additional weight, without adopting slat or net armor. The armor has been tested on the M113 armored personnel carrier (APC) and has been showcased on the APC version of the French VBCI 8x8 vehicle. Both these vehicles have rather limited amounts of base armor.




HIT

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## Zarvan

According to a friend FNSS Pars 8x8 is the top contender for Army’s wheeled APC requirements.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> According to a friend FNSS Pars 8x8 is the top contender for Army’s wheeled APC requirements.


Are these the same friends that laugh? Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Are these the same friends that laugh? Hazrat @Zarvan


I am trusting this news because I also new about it for some time. But on this things will not move that fast but Pakistan is going for wheeled APC


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## Signalian

@Ulla 

Mobility issues in mountains LOC, ATV type vehicles, wheel or tracked? In absence of transport helis.

probably speed and acceleration are the key for going uphill (engine with more hp), no armor as that will reduce speed. 2-4 troop transport for rapid movement along mountains. Cargo like RR, SPG-9, bazooka, mortars and their rounds. Med-evac issues. Low operational costs. Losses to ATV are bearable. M-cycles can also be used.

Engine noise, usage of headlights etc can compromise surprise when near enemy. Less armor means troops susceptible to enemy fire.

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## HRK

^^ PA does have some ATVs as shown in early IDEAS exhibition

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## Signalian

HRK said:


> ^^ PA does have some ATVs as shown in early IDEAS exhibition


any news of ATV usage in mountains or along LOC?

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## HRK

Signalian said:


> any news of ATV usage in mountains or along LOC?



no ...

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Mobility issues in mountains LOC, ATV type vehicles, wheel or tracked? In absence of transport helis.
> 
> probably speed and acceleration are the key for going uphill (engine with more hp), no armor as that will reduce speed. 2-4 troop transport for rapid movement along mountains. Cargo like RR, SPG-9, bazooka, mortars and their rounds. Med-evac issues. Low operational costs. Losses to ATV are bearable. M-cycles can also be used.
> 
> Engine noise, usage of headlights etc can compromise surprise when near enemy. Less armor means troops susceptible to enemy fire.
> 
> View attachment 381362
> View attachment 381363
> View attachment 381364
> View attachment 381365
> View attachment 381366
> View attachment 381367




Yes, why not, I see more the medical and logistical use for this vehicles, most LOC troops are already permanently stationed near the future battlefield , and reinforcement Home-Bases is also not far from the Border. Mull-horses are also favored by the Pakistani mountain Divisions.

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## imama.n

Pakistan Army God bless u(ameen)


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## DesiWarrior

Do we have Serbian Lazar 2 in inventory?


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## Arsalan

DesiWarrior said:


> Do we have Serbian Lazar 2 in inventory?


3 examples,
Not with Army however as far as i know.

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## Cool_Soldier

Any further chances of selection of NORA?


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## Arsalan

Cool_Soldier said:


> Any further chances of selection of NORA?


Being evaluated, chances are bright for NORA B52 when we decide to BUY these wheeled SPH. All procurement are a bit slow these days, may be operation Ra'ad-ul-Fassad is a reason, may be it is the new chief!


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## AMG_12

LOC is the battlefield. You don't need reinforcement in case of war. All the OP, LP are supplemented by rear HQ/bases which are hardly a few kms away. Mules are used as the cheapest available transport but they too are weather restricted. The reality of our battlefield is very different than most people perceive. Except for the glacial areas, most of the posts in Kashmir are supplied via ground access routes even during winters. Major supplies are transported by vehicles and mules in summers. Emergency supplies can be sling dropped. MedEvac is also performed by helicopters. Riding an ATV in Pakistan's north and north-east is no less than riding a tank. It requires special training unlike in the plains. Mules and Men on the other hand are trained and have instincts of survival. IMO, ATV will risk more lives than it can save. We do operate some articulated ATVs in some areas of Kashmir.
Motorcycles were utilized for Reiki during Zarb-e-Azb. Again, mules are used for supplying posts in the FATA region. We have a good road network in FATA region so helicopters are used only for troops movement and MedEvac. The job done by mules is efficient and cheap. One should note that for an ATV to climb a mountain, it requires a path that can accommodate its wheels given most posts are accessed by very thin zigzag paths. Again, after Operation Rah-e-Nijat, efforts were made to bring most posts under the umbrella of artillery and mortar units. 
On the Eastern Border, ATVs can be mainly utilized for anti tank role. But considering the fact Pakistan doesn't operate any light anti tank weapon except for some Chinese 120mm, in low numbers, it'd not be able to play the role even if employed. IMO a light anti tank weapon should be deployed which can employ the ATV as a platform for the aforementioned role. 
"PS this is my personal opinion" 
I'm attaching some of the photos which will help you assess the terrain, the harsh weather conditions and the possible access routes.


















@HRK

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> 3 examples,
> Not with Army however as far as i know.



Sindh Police but media reported corruption in the deal for 20 Lazars. its a closed chapter.

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## Path-Finder

@Horus can this thread be adjusted to include MRAP's in the title?


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## JK!

Given the large number of M113A2 APCs in Pakistani service I'm hoping a future Turkish a Pakistani project can be to bring these up to this M113A4 standard. The laminate appliqué armour alone would be worth it. Seen too many pictures of Pakistani APCs using hillbilly additional armour i.e. Sandbags packed in cages.

https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/product/m113-modernization






For those that don't understand the term "hill billy armour" this is what I mean.

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## WaLeEdK2

JK! said:


> View attachment 395106
> 
> 
> Given the large number of M113A2 APCs in Pakistani service I'm hoping a future Turkish a Pakistani project can be to bring these up to this M113A4 standard. The laminate appliqué armour alone would be worth it. Seen too many pictures of Pakistani APCs using hillbilly additional armour i.e. Sandbags packed in cages.
> 
> https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/product/m113-modernization
> 
> View attachment 395108
> 
> 
> For those that don't understand the term "hill billy armour" this is what I mean.



I'm not sure what year that is from but the ones I've seen recently usually have a cage.









In my opinion PA should start converting some of these to MRLS and start obtaining Stryker like or BMP type APCs. The blitzkrieg APC is a start, hopefully they can improve in it.


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## Rocky rock

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I'm not sure what year that is from but the ones I've seen recently usually have a cage.
> View attachment 395109
> 
> View attachment 395110
> 
> 
> In my opinion PA should start converting some of these to MRLS and start obtaining Stryker like or BMP type APCs. The blitzkrieg APC is a start, hopefully they can improve in it.

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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I'm not sure what year that is from but the ones I've seen recently usually have a cage.
> View attachment 395109
> 
> View attachment 395110
> 
> 
> In my opinion PA should start converting some of these to MRLS and start obtaining Stryker like or BMP type APCs. The blitzkrieg APC is a start, hopefully they can improve in it.


As seen by Israel, those stuff are death traps, better start get some advance APC with APS

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## Super Falcon

We need wheeled APC ifv


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## JK!

DavidSling said:


> As seen by Israel, those stuff are death traps, better start get some advance APC with APS



As a country that formerly used M113s what have they transitioned to as standard? 

You guys operate some phenomenal tank based APCs but I gather these are primarily used by engineer teams or for COIN ops.



Super Falcon said:


> We need wheeled APC ifv



Both are needed. Mechanised divisions are better suited for wheeled systems and heavy armoured divisions need tracked vehicles


----------



## DavidSling

JK! said:


> As a country that formerly used M113s what have they transitioned to as standard?
> 
> You guys operate some phenomenal tank based APCs but I gather these are primarily used by engineer teams or for COIN ops.


Still transitioning, a long way to go

Namer - 60 Ton APC





Eitan - 30 Ton APC





Both with Trophy APC

M113's are old and CANT handle today's threats.
Even bullets can penetrate those junk vehicles

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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> View attachment 395112



NOTICE the cage in THIS PICTURES is only on one side of the APC . I know all this pictures very well !


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## That Guy

DavidSling said:


> As seen by Israel, those stuff are death traps, better start get some advance APC with APS


To be fair, they're better than the pickup trucks that PA still uses, and has been trying to get rid of.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DavidSling said:


> Still transitioning, a long way to go
> 
> Namer - 60 Ton APC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eitan - 30 Ton APC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both with Trophy APC
> 
> M113's are old and CANT handle today's threats.
> Even bullets can penetrate those junk vehicles



An uparmoured M113 or a better armoured and more powerful Saad/Hamza is still better than a BMP-1/2 used by our adversary.

























ATGM,30MM canon,MANPAD equipped variants are also in service.


An IFV similiar to Bradley or Turkish M-113 upgrade was also tested in the past.



Signalian said:


> any news of ATV usage in mountains or along LOC?



Yes, have posted pics of PA using ATVs in FATA & southern Panjab/Sindh during exercises.

The one shown at IDEAS is also in service but not widespread.

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## Rocky rock

Ulla said:


> NOTICE the cage in THIS PICTURES is only on one side of the APC . I know all this pictures very well !


Why don't you guy's think these APC's are thousand time better than Hilux trucks.
COUGAR is doing fine in special operations.
Yea we need to induct something to replace Hilux asap as they are death trap for soldier's.

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## razgriz19

JK! said:


> View attachment 395106
> 
> 
> Given the large number of M113A2 APCs in Pakistani service I'm hoping a future Turkish a Pakistani project can be to bring these up to this M113A4 standard. The laminate appliqué armour alone would be worth it. Seen too many pictures of Pakistani APCs using hillbilly additional armour i.e. Sandbags packed in cages.
> 
> https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/product/m113-modernization
> 
> View attachment 395108
> 
> 
> For those that don't understand the term "hill billy armour" this is what I mean.


The hill billy armour works for small fire and is probably more effective against heavy rounds and rpg-7.
M113 barely has any armour, plus it's expensive to keep replacing it. So why not burn a bit mire gas and use hill billy armour which is dirt cheap. Literally.


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## fatman17

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I'm not sure what year that is from but the ones I've seen recently usually have a cage.
> View attachment 395109
> 
> View attachment 395110
> 
> 
> In my opinion PA should start converting some of these to MRLS and start obtaining Stryker like or BMP type APCs. The blitzkrieg APC is a start, hopefully they can improve in it.



good protection against small arms fire but militants have RPG7s and these could pose a problem. Pakistan has imported Italian M113s with improved self protection.

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> An uparmoured M113 or a better armoured and more powerful Saad/Hamza is still better than a BMP-1/2 used by our adversary.
> View attachment 395130
> View attachment 395131
> View attachment 395132
> View attachment 395133
> View attachment 395134
> View attachment 395135
> View attachment 395136
> 
> 
> 
> ATGM,30MM canon,MANPAD equipped variants are also in service.
> 
> 
> An IFV similiar to Bradley or Turkish M-113 upgrade was also tested in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, have posted pics of PA using ATVs in FATA & southern Panjab/Sindh during exercises.
> 
> The one shown at IDEAS is also in service but not widespread.




All Indian BMPs are equipped with 30mm gun, they have more firepower and have the same protection as M-113, what makes it inferior?


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## JK!

razgriz19 said:


> The hill billy armour works for small fire and is probably more effective against heavy rounds and rpg-7.
> M113 barely has any armour, plus it's expensive to keep replacing it. So why not burn a bit mire gas and use hill billy armour which is dirt cheap. Literally.



It's a short term solution and really only applicable for the COIN ops Pakistan is undertaking. It's going to affect the mobility capabilities of the vehicle and is unsuitable in the scenario of conventional war fighting.

@DESERT FIGHTER 

The Hamza armoured vehicle is a terrible design in terms of crew safety and accessibility. Not in terms of armour itself but crew access. Please see the story in this link for an idea of what I am referring to:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/24/four-british-soldiers-killed-afghanistan

From the photos posted by myself and other members yes HIT have the ability to produced bolt on armour kits for the M113 but it is not standard issue service wide and troops are resorting to hillbilly armour.

When it was found US troops were having to do this in Iraq it caused a scandal in Congress that they were sending their guys out in vehicles not fit for purpose hence the subsequent MRAP Programs for the Marine Corps and Army.

The Dragoon vehicle is more an Internal Security/policing vehicle and Raad is a light recce vehicle. The Hamza 30mm cannon is not in service and was developed as an export product.

As @fatman17 has mentioned the Italian VCC 2 vehicles is service have come with their additional armour upgrades which is an appliqué layer of steel and bolt on armour which has Israeli origins that the Italians made their own. It's the kind of solution that the army needs for its M113 fleet which comes back to my original point. Is there a long term plan to bring these APCs up to a better standard?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

JK! said:


> It's a short term solution and really only applicable for the COIN ops Pakistan is undertaking. It's going to affect the mobility capabilities of the vehicle and is unsuitable in the scenario of conventional war fighting.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> The Hamza armoured vehicle is a terrible design in terms of crew safety and accessibility. Not in terms of armour itself but crew access. Please see the story in this link for an idea of what I am referring to:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/24/four-british-soldiers-killed-afghanistan
> 
> From the photos posted by myself and other members yes HIT have the ability to produced bolt on armour kits for the M113 but it is not standard issue service wide and troops are resorting to hillbilly armour.
> 
> When it was found US troops were having to do this in Iraq it caused a scandal in Congress that they were sending their guys out in vehicles not fit for purpose hence the subsequent MRAP Programs for the Marine Corps and Army.
> 
> The Dragoon vehicle is more an Internal Security/policing vehicle and Raad is a light recce vehicle. The Hamza 30mm cannon is not in service and was developed as an export product.
> 
> As @fatman17 has mentioned the Italian VCC 2 vehicles is service have come with their additional armour upgrades which is an appliqué layer of steel and bolt on armour which has Israeli origins that the Italians made their own. It's the kind of solution that the army needs for its M113 fleet which comes back to my original point. Is there a long term plan to bring these APCs up to a better standard?


The hillbilly armour is from 2007 Swat operations.

Now they are using cage armour and add on.

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## JK!

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The hillbilly armour is from 2007 Swat operations.
> 
> Now they are using cage armour and add on.



Man I hope so or these Jawans are basically operating in mobile coffins.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

JK! said:


> Man I hope so or these Jawans are basically operating in mobile coffins.


Pakistani soldiers patrol during the curfew in the restive Swat valley, Pakistan, 18 August 2008


They learnt their lesson the hard way.

And that's why they started rolling out APCs with cage armour etc in conflict areas.

And even inducted a few hundred MRAPS.


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## Zarvan

Turkey this year is again going to reveal several new IFV and APC and MRAP. Both wheeled and Tracked it's time we slowly start inducting some of them which pass our tests I think KAPLAN 30 and Tulpar IFV are future to go enough of these M113 and there upgraded versions.


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## JK!

@Zarvan as a frontline platform fully agree that the M113 should be replaced in the APC role but it can still find use in other non combat roles as above. This is what the US Army will be doing with its Bradley's while a new IFV is developed.

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## fatman17

JK! said:


> It's a short term solution and really only applicable for the COIN ops Pakistan is undertaking. It's going to affect the mobility capabilities of the vehicle and is unsuitable in the scenario of conventional war fighting.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> The Hamza armoured vehicle is a terrible design in terms of crew safety and accessibility. Not in terms of armour itself but crew access. Please see the story in this link for an idea of what I am referring to:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/24/four-british-soldiers-killed-afghanistan
> 
> From the photos posted by myself and other members yes HIT have the ability to produced bolt on armour kits for the M113 but it is not standard issue service wide and troops are resorting to hillbilly armour.
> 
> When it was found US troops were having to do this in Iraq it caused a scandal in Congress that they were sending their guys out in vehicles not fit for purpose hence the subsequent MRAP Programs for the Marine Corps and Army.
> 
> The Dragoon vehicle is more an Internal Security/policing vehicle and Raad is a light recce vehicle. The Hamza 30mm cannon is not in service and was developed as an export product.
> 
> As @fatman17 has mentioned the Italian VCC 2 vehicles is service have come with their additional armour upgrades which is an appliqué layer of steel and bolt on armour which has Israeli origins that the Italians made their own. It's the kind of solution that the army needs for its M113 fleet which comes back to my original point. Is there a long term plan to bring these APCs up to a better standard?



upgrading the M113 is an ongoing process with priority given to strike corps mechanized units. budget restrictions is another factor. the many versions of the M113 in the military's inventory are going to soldier on for many years to come.

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## JK!

fatman17 said:


> upgrading the M113 is an ongoing process with priority given to strike corps mechanized units. budget restrictions is another factor. the many versions of the M113 in the military's inventory are going to soldier on for many years to come.



Is this solution to ensure some mechanised capability is retained?

Where does it leave the army inducting more Talha or Saad APCs?

I'm trying to see if greater numbers of M113s lead to transition to an all Talha/Saad based fleet and/or induction of a different platform long term.


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> Is this solution to ensure some mechanised capability is retained?
> 
> Where does it leave the army inducting more Talha or Saad APCs?
> 
> I'm trying to see if greater numbers of M113s lead to transition to an all Talha/Saad based fleet and/or induction of a different platform long term.


It's a hodge podge because local production cannot keep up with demand, so therefore M113s are being picked up from different sources, US EDA, Germany, Italy etc to make up the numbers. Many of these imports also require an upgrade, plus are cannabalised for spares also.

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## JK!

fatman17 said:


> It's a hodge podge because local production cannot keep up with demand, so therefore M113s are being picked up from different sources, US EDA, Germany, Italy etc to make up the numbers. Many of these imports also require an upgrade, plus are cannabalised for spares also.



It can become a capable 21st century battlefield taxi still if upgraded properly hence my suggestion of the FNSS Upgrade as an option to ensure longevity.

When you mention demand what Fleet size is the army aiming for in total?


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## Zarvan

Kaplan 30 




Tulpar IFV

Hopefully we would soon see these two beasts in Pakistani Inventory

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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> Kaplan 30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tulpar IFV
> 
> Hopefully we would soon see these two beasts in Pakistani Inventory



Come on man you're spreading too many rumors these days. could you please provide single authenticate source to make this sure?


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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> Come on man you're spreading too many rumors these days. could you please provide single authenticate source to make this sure?


its Horus!!


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan lacks IFV we have APC M113 Which is old easy target for latest weapons we need new technology in ARMOURED PERSONAL and in IFV

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## Rocky rock

Path-Finder said:


> its Horus!!



He never mentioned anywhere before about these IFV'z?


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> Come on man you're spreading too many rumors these days. could you please provide single authenticate source to make this sure?


This is my wish not any source


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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> He never mentioned anywhere before about these IFV'z?


If you look you will find it.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> If you look you will find it.


Are you saying @Horus mentioned Pakistan going for IFV ????


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Kaplan 30 and Tulpar are basically competing products - an army would only select one. I don't know anything about Pakistan's IFV plans (or lack thereof), but if it is looking at Turkish options, it will wait to see which model the Turkish Army itself chooses. Why? Scale.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Are you saying @Horus mentioned Pakistan going for IFV ????


Yes Hazrat I saw one of his post about Turkish ifv


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## Zarvan

Pak Armoring work on Muhafiz makes it looks like good solid MRAP not a tin can why this work can't be done by good for nothing HIT. 

@Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> Pak Armoring work on Muhafiz makes it looks like good solid MRAP not a tin can why this work can't be done by good for nothing HIT.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER



The Tires doesn't seems to be bulletproof. :/

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Pak Armoring work on Muhafiz makes it looks like good solid MRAP not a tin can why this work can't be done by good for nothing HIT.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER


It's not a MRAP! Where is the V shaped hull?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> It's not a MRAP! Where is the V shaped hull?


Point is why can't HIT itself place better Armor on this one why we have to go to a private company

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## AMG_12

Path-Finder said:


> It's not a MRAP! Where is the V shaped hull?


They are solely for the paramilitary forces. They are ambush protected against small arms but can be torn apart by an IED. In Pakistan, the applications of such vehicles are limited to VIP/Prisoners movement, protection and transport. They can be used for patrolling sensitive areas but again, an IED would kill it.



Zarvan said:


> Point is why can't HIT itself place better Armor on this one why we have to go to a private company


HIT can armor it with ERA if that's what you demand but who will buy it? They'll tailor it as per the buyer's demands.

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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> They are solely for the paramilitary forces. They are ambush protected against small arms but can be torn apart by an IED. In Pakistan, the applications of such vehicles are limited to VIP/Prisoners movement, protection and transport. They can be used for patrolling sensitive areas but again, an IED would kill it.
> 
> 
> HIT can armor it with ERA if that's what you demand but who will buy it? They'll tailor it as per the buyer's demands.


Sorry the kind of IED which are used in our areas but we need MRAP and in Pakistan IED hardly cross 20 KG so good MRAP can save lot of lives

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## Path-Finder

Hazrat @Zarvan look at @Game.Invade post adding armor won't do jack! This is a normal vehicle that has been armored. They buy a 4x4 civilian vehicle and add armor panels to it.

MRAP is a barebone truck chassis and engine that has been built on with armoring and V shaped Hull for IED's. Navistar is a truck maker that has made MAXXPRO MRAP on one of their Truck models.

Even the Turkish Kirpi you have feelings for Hazrat is a Truck made by BMC that has followed the same principle as MAXXPRO!!

Pakistan or HIT makes trucks, Mercedes I think Now what is stopping Pakistan from Making MRAP on that Mercedes chassis?

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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> Sorry the kind of IED which are used in our areas but we need MRAP and in Pakistan IED hardly cross 20 KG so good MRAP can save lot of lives


Army has employed enough MaxxPro and M-113 to supplement troop movement in FATA. The army has also invested in counter-IED tactics, jammers etc. IED has no weight limit nor does it follow a rule book. A 5KG can wreck more havoc than a 20kg IED, It all depends on how the IED is employed. In FATA VBIEDs are 100+ KG. You can't replace all utility and transport vehicles with MRAPs. They are employed as and when needed.

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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> Army has employed enough MaxxPro and M-113 to supplement troop movement in FATA. The army has also invested in counter-IED tactics, jammers etc. IED has no weight limit nor does it follow a rule book. A 5KG can wreck more havoc than a 20kg IED, It all depends on how the IED is employed. In FATA VBIEDs are 100+ KG. You can't replace all utility and transport vehicles with MRAPs. They are employed as and when needed.


Sorry Para Military Forces are not equipped and we loose soldiers and policeman in main troubled areas every second day because they were moving in Toyota Hilux


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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> Pak Armoring work on Muhafiz makes it looks like good solid MRAP not a tin can why this work can't be done by good for nothing HIT.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER


You have any inside pictures more looks like VIP kind of thing
Thx


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## Path-Finder

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan look at @Game.Invade post adding armor won't do jack! This is a normal vehicle that has been armored. They buy a 4x4 civilian vehicle and add armor panels to it.
> 
> MRAP is a barebone truck chassis and engine that has been built on with armoring and V shaped Hull for IED's. Navistar is a truck maker that has made MAXXPRO MRAP on one of their Truck models.
> 
> Even the Turkish Kirpi you have feelings for Hazrat is a Truck made by BMC that has followed the same principle as MAXXPRO!!
> 
> Pakistan or HIT makes trucks, Mercedes I think Now what is stopping Pakistan from Making MRAP on that Mercedes chassis?


Well Hazrat @Zarvan any response?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan look at @Game.Invade post adding armor won't do jack! This is a normal vehicle that has been armored. They buy a 4x4 civilian vehicle and add armor panels to it.
> 
> MRAP is a barebone truck chassis and engine that has been built on with armoring and V shaped Hull for IED's. Navistar is a truck maker that has made MAXXPRO MRAP on one of their Truck models.
> 
> Even the Turkish Kirpi you have feelings for Hazrat is a Truck made by BMC that has followed the same principle as MAXXPRO!!
> 
> Pakistan or HIT makes trucks, Mercedes I think Now what is stopping Pakistan from Making MRAP on that Mercedes chassis?


What stops HIT is corruption and incompetence. What I know is we need MRAP for our Soldiers and PoliceMan who are dying daily due to firing and IED and due to the fact they are travelling in death trap called Toyota Hilux.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What stops HIT is corruption and incompetence. What I know is we need MRAP for our Soldiers and PoliceMan who are dying daily due to firing and IED and due to the fact they are travelling in death trap called Toyota Hilux.


Hazrat I said HIT makes Trucks as well North Benz is it? or is it Mercedes? That should be the basis for making a MRAP which is built on Truck Chassis! What is holding back HIT? Just make a copy of MAXXPRO or something similar to it! MRAP is a engineering project that requires few engineers for the job!!!

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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> Sorry Para Military Forces are not equipped and we loose soldiers and policeman in main troubled areas every second day because they were moving in Toyota Hilux


It's the provincial governments' responsibility. Just like Sindh Government once contacted Yugoimport SDPR for 3 Lazar vehicles. Pakistan is a poor country, lives don't matter as much as the machine does. If we cared more about the lives of our soldiers, BPJs would've been our first priority as front-line soldiers still wear those load bearing vests and think those are to save their lives. Same goes for law enforcement, they are missing the basics. Replacing each and every transport vehicle would cost us our whole defence budget. KPK government recently inducted a series of armoured vehicles for the police force. If our budget was efficiently utilized in the past, today we wouldn't be in as bad a shape as we are today.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat I said HIT makes Trucks as well North Benz is it? or is it Mercedes? That should be the basis for making a MRAP which is built on Truck Chassis! What is holding back HIT? Just make a copy of MAXXPRO or something similar to it! MRAP is a engineering project that requires few engineers for the job!!!


I gave you my answer. Even the Muhafiz they made was exposed during Layari operation that is why Sindh Government gave the task to Pak Armoring

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## Blacklight

Game.Invade said:


> It's the provincial governments' responsibility. Just like Sindh Government once contacted Yugoimport SDPR for 3 Lazar vehicles. *Pakistan is a poor country,* lives don't matter as much as the machine does. If we cared more about the lives of our soldiers, BPJs would've been our first priority as front-line soldiers still wear those load bearing vests and think those are to save their lives. Same goes for law enforcement, they are missing the basics. Replacing each and every transport vehicle would cost us our whole defence budget. KPK government recently inducted a series of armoured vehicles for the police force. If our budget was efficiently utilized in the past, today we wouldn't be in as bad a shape as we are today.


Correction my friend.

Pakistan is* not *a poor country. It is a *"poorly run country"*

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## AMG_12

Blacklight said:


> Correction my friend.
> 
> Pakistan is* not *a poor country. It is a *"poorly run country"*


Poor, if you can't afford all the gadgets and equipment.

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## Blacklight

Game.Invade said:


> Poor, if you can't afford all the gadgets and equipment.


Make politicians and bureaucrats give back all the black money, remove corruption, and then see, how many hundreds of billions of dollars show up.



Zarvan said:


> I gave you my answer. Even the Muhafiz they made was exposed during Layari operation that is why Sindh Government gave the task to Pak Armoring



https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/...cars-became-death-traps-in-may-2012-operation

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## mikaal hassan

Pakistani Army dont like to buy small items like mrap trucks because they cant show them off too much that is why they want more Tanks more missiles EMPLOY more people.... for the top brass life of an ordinary solider or FC PERSONAL or even a police officer is not worth anything ..


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## JK!

Mohafiz is built and designed as an internal security vehicle not an MRAP.

It does what it says on the tin. In that role it is fit for purpose.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> I gave you my answer. Even the Muhafiz they made was exposed during Layari operation that is why Sindh Government gave the task to Pak Armoring


Because they used AP rounds and the police variant wasnt supposed to take heavy calibr AP ammo.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Pak Armoring work on Muhafiz makes it looks like good solid MRAP not a tin can why this work can't be done by good for nothing HIT.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @Arsalan @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER


look at the tires, am sure it is not even Blast resistant, theres no added weight on the tires, seems like a standard Bullet Resistant vehicle to me, also side panel, front & rear armour panels are not in place that would give added protection if it was to drive through a blast
this is your Patrolling vehicle for Sindh Police that is all, not even in use with CTD / Elite Police ----

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## Zarvan




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## Inception-06

balixd said:


> look at the tires, am sure it is not even Blast resistant, theres no added weight on the tires, seems like a standard Bullet Resistant vehicle to me, also side panel, front & rear armour panels are not in place that would give added protection if it was to drive through a blast
> this is your Patrolling vehicle for Sindh Police that is all, not even in use with CTD / Elite Police ----



SSU and Punjab Elite Force have this vehicle in service, it's their Proud!

*TESTS IN CONJUNCTION WITH SSU SINDH POLICE PAKISTAN *
The Special Security Unit (SSU) is one of the specialized units of the Sindh Police with its distinctive operational characteristics i.e. it performs security and counterterrorism functions simultaneously yet with remarkable precision, accuracy and professionalism. 
In 02nd APRIL 2015 we tested our AT6.0 under supervision of their Chief Technical Instructor Major Saleem. 

*TESTING FACILITY : SSU SINDH POLICE SHOOTING RANGE RAZZAKABAD PAKISTAN *

*VEHICLE USED FOR TEST: *Land Rover ArmouredPersonnelCarrier 
*TYRE:* BFGOODRICH RUN FLAT 
*TYRE SIZE:*235 / 55 / R15 
*DOSAGE:*4LT 
*TYRE PRESSURE (Before shooting):*3 BAR

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## Zarvan

Soon Pakistan will get 6× Cobra II light armored tactical vehicle from turkey

This vehicle is use for deploying special teams deep inside enemy's area.
It is armed with 1× 50 cal remote control gun it can carry 6× troops

It's offroad capability make it able to work in almost all kind of terrain

#ALPHA

A claim made by one facebook page. Is it true ???

@Horus

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Soon Pakistan will get 6× Cobra II light armored tactical vehicle from turkey
> 
> This vehicle is use for deploying special teams deep inside enemy's area.
> It is armed with 1× 50 cal remote control gun it can carry 6× troops
> 
> It's offroad capability make it able to work in almost all kind of terrain
> 
> #ALPHA
> 
> A claim made by one facebook page. Is it true ???
> 
> @Horus


Facebook pages confirmed SU35, T-90, Scar and tulpar etc too

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Facebook pages confirmed SU35, T-90, Scar and tulpar etc too


None of them did


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> Soon Pakistan will get 6× Cobra II light armored tactical vehicle from turkey
> 
> This vehicle is use for deploying special teams deep inside enemy's area.
> It is armed with 1× 50 cal remote control gun it can carry 6× troops
> 
> It's offroad capability make it able to work in almost all kind of terrain
> 
> #ALPHA
> 
> A claim made by one facebook page. Is it true ???
> 
> @Horus



there was also a claim that Turkish Nurol will be made in Pakistan any news on that??? or shelved???


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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> Facebook pages confirmed SU35, T-90, Scar and tulpar etc too


Make a dozen claims, hope that one of those comes out to be true so you can say "I have been proven right many times". Who gives a 5hit about the dozens of times when the claims were ridiculously stupid. 

Simple!


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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> Make a dozen claims, hope that one of those comes out to be true so you can say "I have been proven right many times". Who gives a 5hit about the dozens of times when the claims were ridiculously stupid.
> 
> Simple!


I was joking [emoji38]


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Muhammad Omar said:


> there was also a claim that Turkish Nurol will be made in Pakistan any news on that??? or shelved???


The provided some help with the Protector LAV.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886516188402012160

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886516188402012160


I really hope we see our Police and Army with these kind of beasts we are loosing lot of lives daily due to lack of these kind of beasts.


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## Zarvan




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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> I was joking [emoji38]


I was also not pointing you out bro!


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


>



So are they adding armor to it?? and cameras etc

What about this guy???

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> So are they adding armor to it?? and cameras etc
> 
> What about this guy???


Both are for different roles

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> Both are for different roles



So PARS 8x8 is still on cards

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> So PARS 8x8 is still on cards


Yes it is


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## Maea

First of all i think we should replace toyota pick-ups


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## Zarvan



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## Ahmet Pasha

What happened to the LAV????


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## Imran Khan

m113 roaming in new dress in islambad

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## Muhammad Omar

Imran Khan said:


> m113 roaming in new dress in islambad



That's the APC of PAF usually roam around Margalla Road and also guards at Ait University   and Air Force colony

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## Gryphon

Imran Khan said:


> m113 roaming in new dress in islambad



This is one of the 600 VCC-1 Camillino's provided by Italy.

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## Signalian

^^ Need to get out of M-113 APC variants and move onto IFV's

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## Windjammer

*Check out the new toy with digital camouflage to come out of HIT.*






@DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Irfan Baloch @Tipu7 @Arsalan @Path-Finder

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## Tipu7

Dragoon APC. It's few year old toy and have digital cameo from quite a time.
It's operational with Air port security forces in Pakistan already.



Windjammer said:


> *Check out the new toy with digital camouflage to come out of HIT.*
> 
> View attachment 423701
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Irfan Baloch @Tipu7 @Arsalan @Path-Finder

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> ^^ Need to get out of M-113 APC variants and move onto IFV's


Exactly this is what I have been saying for long time

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> ^^ Need to get out of M-113 APC variants and move onto IFV's


Come on yara, u know its not possible. 
M113 is cheap effective & have enough carrying capacity for moving entire section in one APC to battle field.
IFVs on the other hand r expensive to buy, operate have limited carrying capability though credible fire power. We will need some big cash to make it happen and there r many other crucial areas where hard cash is needed.

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## Signalian

MRAP's are the need of the hour, have been actually for a long time.

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## Arsalan

Windjammer said:


> *Check out the new toy with digital camouflage to come out of HIT.*
> 
> View attachment 423701
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Irfan Baloch @Tipu7 @Arsalan @Path-Finder


Dragoon APC! 

You will see them on airports and at some cantts as well (security vehicle). Saw some at HIT gate too (operating there i mean). However, just to mention, i am not sure if it is actually Digital Camo. It is made to look like digital camo but it is not actual digital camo.

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## denel

Windjammer said:


> *Check out the new toy with digital camouflage to come out of HIT.*
> 
> View attachment 423701
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Irfan Baloch @Tipu7 @Arsalan @Path-Finder


Another useless toy which is a danger to occupants.
Frankly i am shocked at the level of rubbish vehicles Pak army keep putting into service.



Signalian said:


> MRAP's are the need of the hour, have been actually for a long time.


mine proof vehicles as we say it.... i keep shaking my head everytime a photo shows up; these are all tin cans waiting to incapacitate the occupants.

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## Zarvan

denel said:


> Another useless toy which is a danger to occupants.
> Frankly i am shocked at the level of rubbish vehicles Pak army keep putting into service.
> 
> 
> mine proof vehicles as we say it.... i keep shaking my head everytime a photo shows up; these are all tin cans waiting to incapacitate the occupants.


Exactly and we have lost hundred of soldiers due to IED attacks and even Assault Rifle result in losses as our soldiers are travelling in these Hilux


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## Signalian

denel said:


> Another useless toy which is a danger to occupants.
> Frankly i am shocked at the level of rubbish vehicles Pak army keep putting into service.
> 
> 
> mine proof vehicles as we say it.... i keep shaking my head everytime a photo shows up; these are all tin cans waiting to incapacitate the occupants.



M113 was originally intended to operate behind cover of MBT's, dismount soldiers and stay in rear. M113 wasn't intended to directly engage enemy as the 12.7mm was supposed to give AF cover, oh well! Even Talha APC shouldn't be used in direct combat. The pickups and APC when sent in direct combat or when ambushed gave disastrous results.

The COIN war saw the need of IED/ambush proof vehicles in the MRAP class. PA still kept using light pick ups which couldn't even compare with HUMVEE in terms of some protection. 

In most events FC was sent first, in pickups and that proved to be deadly. Now FC has given training, heavy weapons and equipment to manage combat. 

Equipping half million army and paramilitary with MRAPs and light armoured transports has become a cumbersome job for PA.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> M113 was originally intended to operate behind cover of MBT's, dismount soldiers and stay in rear. M113 wasn't intended to directly engage enemy as the 12.7mm was supposed to give AF cover, oh well! Even Talha APC shouldn't be used in direct combat. The pickups and APC when sent in direct combat or when ambushed gave disastrous results.
> 
> The COIN war saw the need of IED/ambush proof vehicles in the MRAP class. PA still kept using light pick ups which couldn't even compare with HUMVEE in terms of some protection.
> 
> In most events FC was sent first, in pickups and that proved to be deadly. Now FC has given training, heavy weapons and equipment to manage combat.
> 
> Equipping half million army and paramilitary with MRAPs and light armoured transports has become a cumbersome job for PA.


Even 1500 MRAP in operational ares would have been enough if we would have started to induct them on right time we would have 1500 MRAP by now but for some genius reason we use MRAP to keep them on Air Force bases instead of giving them to soldiers who are in operational areas


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Another useless toy which is a danger to occupants.
> Frankly i am shocked at the level of rubbish vehicles Pak army keep putting into service.
> 
> 
> mine proof vehicles as we say it.... i keep shaking my head everytime a photo shows up; these are all tin cans waiting to incapacitate the occupants.


The tragedy here isn't just that they inducted them, but somehow, HIT was made to license the design and produce it as one of its products! It has to be asked, of all the designs one could find to license, they chose the Dragoon.

Yes there is the commonality with the M113 and all, fair, but licensing is a cost in of itself and an open bid for that (i.e. the cost of licensing the design and building the capacity top produce at HIT) might have yielded interesting results. Ultimately, it's a matter of getting the license today and then gradually inducting over the long-term. 

Paramount Group could have come to the table with the Mbombe 4 MRAP, Mbombe 6x6 and Mbombe 8 AFV, which share 80% in parts (source)! That alone could have resolved several distinct armed forces needs and we could have had a joint marketing, co-production and third-party export partnership built on the Mbombe.

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## Mumm-Ra

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The tragedy here isn't just that they inducted them, but somehow, HIT was made to license the design and produce it as one of its products! It has to be asked, of all the designs one could find to license, they chose the Dragoon.
> 
> Yes there is the commonality with the M113 and all, fair, but licensing is a cost in of itself and an open bid for that (i.e. the cost of licensing the design and building the capacity top produce at HIT) might have yielded interesting results. Ultimately, it's a matter of getting the license today and then gradually inducting over the long-term.
> 
> Paramount Group could have come to the table with the Mbombe 4 MRAP, Mbombe 6x6 and Mbombe 8 AFV, which share 80% in parts (source)! That alone could have resolved several distinct armed forces needs and we could have had a joint marketing, co-production and third-party export partnership built on the Mbombe.


Since, we don't know the circumstances in which this licence was acquired, we can't really comment on the other options that may have been explored at the time. But, a gut feeling tells me that the gentlemen involved in this deal will be financially very well off now.


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The tragedy here isn't just that they inducted them, but somehow, HIT was made to license the design and produce it as one of its products! It has to be asked, of all the designs one could find to license, they chose the Dragoon.
> 
> Yes there is the commonality with the M113 and all, fair, but licensing is a cost in of itself and an open bid for that (i.e. the cost of licensing the design and building the capacity top produce at HIT) might have yielded interesting results. Ultimately, it's a matter of getting the license today and then gradually inducting over the long-term.
> 
> Paramount Group could have come to the table with the Mbombe 4 MRAP, Mbombe 6x6 and Mbombe 8 AFV, which share 80% in parts (source)! That alone could have resolved several distinct armed forces needs and we could have had a joint marketing, co-production and third-party export partnership built on the Mbombe.


Bilal

Frankly Mbombe is too much of an overkill; you are needing basic Mamba/RG-32 there are tonnes in surplus and the beauty is they have interchangable iveco or toyota dyna engine/transmissions which a client can opt for. I spent years before in Casspir/Buffels/Ratels and then transitioned to Mambas.



Signalian said:


> M113 was originally intended to operate behind cover of MBT's, dismount soldiers and stay in rear. M113 wasn't intended to directly engage enemy as the 12.7mm was supposed to give AF cover, oh well! Even Talha APC shouldn't be used in direct combat. The pickups and APC when sent in direct combat or when ambushed gave disastrous results.
> 
> The COIN war saw the need of IED/ambush proof vehicles in the MRAP class. PA still kept using light pick ups which couldn't even compare with HUMVEE in terms of some protection.
> 
> In most events FC was sent first, in pickups and that proved to be deadly. Now FC has given training, heavy weapons and equipment to manage combat.
> 
> Equipping half million army and paramilitary with MRAPs and light armoured transports has become a cumbersome job for PA.


No it is not a cumbersome task; there are too many vested interests at play. They should just have taken a decision to look into local or joint ventures for mineproof vehicles with paramount or even armscor or other vendors from SA. Instead, it is all about lining up selfinterest at the expense of lives.
With respect to humvees; they just belong in a GM dealership and not on battlefield. Even those i would not touch with a spagetti- plenty of surplus mambas are available for around rands 80,000.

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## Signalian

denel said:


> No it is not a cumbersome task; there are too many vested interests at play. They should just have taken a decision to look into local or joint ventures for mineproof vehicles with paramount or even armscor or other vendors from SA. Instead, it is all about lining up selfinterest at the expense of lives.
> With respect to humvees; they just belong in a GM dealership and not on battlefield. Even those i would not touch with a spagetti- plenty of surplus mambas are available for around rands 80,000.


I dont want to go off topic with conspiracy theory discussions whether vested interests or whatever. The decision has been made very late not just for MRAP's but also forming the LCB's and upgrading the FC which encounters the brunt of the action. The troops have been upgrading the light vehicles/APC with steel plates and sand bags but still doesnt come upto the protection standard of a standard MRAP. 
The advantage that a HUMVEE has over a Hilux is that, out of the two, its better protected and carries lesser troops which means lesser casualties although fitted with same armament. Equipping all troops with Otokar Cobra type protected vehicle for any trip could have been better rather than Land Rover defenders and hiluxes. Even Mohafiz proved to be a disappointment at times. Stepping out into combat zones should have been purely in MRAPs.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is otokar cobra resistant to ieds???


Signalian said:


> I dont want to go off topic with conspiracy theory discussions whether vested interests or whatever. The decision has been made very late not just for MRAP's but also forming the LCB's and upgrading the FC which encounters the brunt of the action. The troops have been upgrading the light vehicles/APC with steel plates and sand bags but still doesnt come upto the protection standard of a standard MRAP.
> The advantage that a HUMVEE has over a Hilux is that, out of the two, its better protected and carries lesser troops which means lesser casualties although fitted with same armament. Equipping all troops with Otokar Cobra type protected vehicle for any trip could have been better rather than Land Rover defenders and hiluxes. Even Mohafiz proved to be a disappointment at times. Stepping out into combat zones should have been purely in MRAPs.


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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is otokar cobra resistant to ieds???


To a certain degree having a V-shaped hull.

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is otokar cobra resistant to ieds???












*Streit Group Gepard ASV Armoured Security Vehicle at DSEI 2017, Defense and Security Exhibition in London, United Kingdom.*


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## Zarvan

Piranha 5 with Protector RWS 12.7 mm HMG and twin MMP ATGM on display at DSEI 2017 in London


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## Zarvan

Patria 8 x 8 at display in DSEI 2017


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## -------

Zarvan said:


> Patria 8 x 8 at display in DSEI 2017



Brits have tender for 8x8, it's why there are so many manufacturers showcasing their 8x8. FNSS PARS III is also participating in the tender, perhaps having BAE SYSTEMS as part owner of FNSS may come in useful ?

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## Zarvan

Combat-Master said:


> Brits have tender for 8x8, it's why there are so many manufacturers showcasing their 8x8. FNSS PARS III is also participating in the tender, perhaps having BAE SYSTEMS as part owner of FNSS may come in useful ?


According to @Horus Pakistan is going for FNSS PARSS 8 X 8

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The tragedy here isn't just that they inducted them, but somehow, HIT was made to license the design and produce it as one of its products! It has to be asked, of all the designs one could find to license, they chose the Dragoon.
> 
> Yes there is the commonality with the M113 and all, fair, but licensing is a cost in of itself and an open bid for that (i.e. the cost of licensing the design and building the capacity top produce at HIT) might have yielded interesting results. Ultimately, it's a matter of getting the license today and then gradually inducting over the long-term.
> 
> Paramount Group could have come to the table with the Mbombe 4 MRAP, Mbombe 6x6 and Mbombe 8 AFV, which share 80% in parts (source)! That alone could have resolved several distinct armed forces needs and we could have had a joint marketing, co-production and third-party export partnership built on the Mbombe.


As far as i am aware we didn't spent on the license part so that considered, the deal is not that bad. We got to make half decent (at worst) APC AT HOME, without spending valuable $$ with parts commonality with the existing APC fleet. Fair enough i would say.


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## denel

Signalian said:


> I dont want to go off topic with conspiracy theory discussions whether vested interests or whatever. The decision has been made very late not just for MRAP's but also forming the LCB's and upgrading the FC which encounters the brunt of the action. The troops have been upgrading the light vehicles/APC with steel plates and sand bags but still doesnt come upto the protection standard of a standard MRAP.
> The advantage that a HUMVEE has over a Hilux is that, out of the two, its better protected and carries lesser troops which means lesser casualties although fitted with same armament. Equipping all troops with Otokar Cobra type protected vehicle for any trip could have been better rather than Land Rover defenders and hiluxes. Even Mohafiz proved to be a disappointment at times. Stepping out into combat zones should have been purely in MRAPs.


Nope.... It is no different just a tad bit of protection; ask the americans what humvees were in Iraq and they had to order 3000+ mambas.



Signalian said:


> To a certain degree having a V-shaped hull.


Yes but it is still too low for comfort.


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## Ahmet Pasha

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) bro you wrote an article pak-kazakhstan and they are building marauder with S.Africa. What is your assessment about chances of PA getting Marauder from SA through KPE???

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## Zarvan

*The Otokar ARMA 8x8 armoured vehicle at DSEI 2017 (Credit Army Recognition)*


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## Muhammad Omar

are we doing speculations on this thread too???

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) bro you wrote an article pak-kazakhstan and they are building marauder with S.Africa. What is your assessment about chances of PA getting Marauder from SA through KPE???


That's up to the PA. That said, the PA has gotten MVRDE to develop the LAVA, which I suspect is probably a light-armoured vehicle similar to the Marauder. There are a lot of options for such types, especially in South Africa, Turkey, Ukraine and Czech Republic.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan should seriously consider getting these from UAE. These are must for forces facing IED attacks on regular bases


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should seriously consider getting these from UAE. These are must for forces facing IED attacks on regular bases


UAE would basically be a subcontractor. The OEM is Denel Vehicle Systems in South Africa from whom EDIC imports parts for assembly in the UAE. MVRDE has the LAVA program too.

At this point, MVRDE should get DVS, Paramount Group, Otokar, Tumosan, Nurol - i.e. any one of dozens of experienced companies - to help it design a capable and affordable solution built for Pakistani requirements (i.e. under LAVA) @denel


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> UAE would basically be a subcontractor. The OEM is Denel Vehicle Systems in South Africa from whom EDIC imports parts for assembly in the UAE. MVRDE has the LAVA program too.
> 
> At this point, MVRDE should get DVS, Paramount Group, Otokar, Tumosan, Nurol - i.e. any one of dozens of experienced companies - to help it design a capable and affordable solution built for Pakistani requirements (i.e. under LAVA) @denel
> 
> View attachment 425442


Thanks Bilal. For UAE and others, it is knock down assembly kits which are sent over; on our revenue books for last year, it was showing as export.


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## Ahmet Pasha

At this point do u have any info through public sources or ur own "sources" inside military circles about LAVA.

Also when u say "Light Armored" does that mean an


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> UAE would basically be a subcontractor. The OEM is Denel Vehicle Systems in South Africa from whom EDIC imports parts for assembly in the UAE. MVRDE has the LAVA program too.
> 
> At this point, MVRDE should get DVS, Paramount Group, Otokar, Tumosan, Nurol - i.e. any one of dozens of experienced companies - to help it design a capable and affordable solution built for Pakistani requirements (i.e. under LAVA) @denel
> 
> View attachment 425442


ied protected vehicle or a vehicle more like the HMVEE???


----------



## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> At this point do u have any info through public sources or ur own "sources" inside military circles about LAVA.
> 
> Also when u say "Light Armored" does that mean an
> 
> ied protected vehicle or a vehicle more like the HMVEE???


IED protected. This is MRAP


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> At this point do u have any info through public sources or ur own "sources" inside military circles about LAVA.
> 
> Also when u say "Light Armored" does that mean an
> 
> ied protected vehicle or a vehicle more like the HMVEE???


In all likelihood, it's a 8-11 ton 4x4 akin to the NIMR Ajban 440A or Nurol NMS. It probably won't look as cool as those, but the aim is similar (e.g. a good and adaptable light armoured vehicle). Just my speculation though, but based on fact, e.g. the fact that UROVESA demoed a Humvee-like vehicle at IDEAS in reference to some bid.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Man!!!
Thats what u get when u have military drones running the show without input from industrial sector. I have found that most American/Western weapons are cool looking and also perform most effectively and vice versa.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In all likelihood, it's a 8-11 ton 4x4 akin to the NIMR Ajban 440A or Nurol NMS. It probably won't look as cool as those, but the aim is similar (e.g. a good and adaptable light armoured vehicle). Just my speculation though, but based on fact, e.g. the fact that UROVESA demoed a Humvee-like vehicle at IDEAS in reference to some bid.


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## JPMM

For the Portuguese Army, in competition its the UROVESA ST5 and the Katmerciler Hizir.
The Spanish is 6000kg and the Hizir is 16000kg. They are on the same cost and armour protection category, the Hizir is biger with 9 seats, the ST5 is 5 seats. We will probably shoose the ST5, we need it for the Rapid reaction forces (Paratroopers/Commandos/Special Op) and so the ST5 is lighter and the factory is right here north of Portugal in Galiza. The ST5 was allready tested in Pakistan? I think the answer is yes. But for the Pakistan needs the Hizir was the best, you want it as a Patrool Vehicle, both have V-Shaped hull, but the Hizir is biger.

http://www.janes.com/article/73338/nato-receives-bids-from-spain-and-turkey-for-portuguese-4x4-vehicle-project

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## python-000

Zarvan said:


> IED protected. This is MRAP


Hi sir, i am python new induction & i have 1 question in my mind if we have a better home made HAMZA MRAP & we can make it much better like that.

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## Zarvan

python-000 said:


> Hi sir, i am python new induction & i have 1 question in my mind if we have a better home made HAMZA MRAP & we can make it much better like that.
> View attachment 426140


Yes it can be improved like this


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## denel

JPMM said:


> For the Portuguese Army, in competition its the UROVESA ST5 and the Katmerciler Hizir.
> The Spanish is 6000kg and the Hizir is 16000kg. They are on the same cost and armour protection category, the Hizir is biger with 9 seats, the ST5 is 5 seats. We will probably shoose the ST5, we need it for the Rapid reaction forces (Paratroopers/Commandos/Special Op) and so the ST5 is lighter and the factory is right here north of Portugal in Galiza. The ST5 was allready tested in Pakistan? I think the answer is yes. But for the Pakistan needs the Hizir was the best, you want it as a Patrool Vehicle, both have V-Shaped hull, but the Hizir is biger.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/73338/nato-receives-bids-from-spain-and-turkey-for-portuguese-4x4-vehicle-project


pa... ST5 is flat bed it is based on humvee; not V. you need to have min of 25 deg V. Please check Mamba/RG3x series.


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## JPMM

_www.infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/FuturoMRAP.pdf_
page 45, its in spanish

Unveiled in 2012, the Vamtac S3 shared more commonalities with its European cousins the AMPV or the Sherpa. It had a larger engine and was recognizable for a redesigned grille. The rest of the improvements were to protect its crew. A v-hull was installed to deflect powerful blasts. The cab was turned into a modular “capsule” with spall lining. Windows and doors were replaced with reinforced material offering STANAG-level protection.




URO Vamtac ST5’s in desert configuration.

https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com/2016/10/28/armored-cars-uro-vamtac/

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## Ahmet Pasha

Many countries have turned their regular transport truck into mraps. Maybe we could do the same with Hino and Nissan trucks that we have???? Or maybe even Mercedes Unimog trucks???? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @fatman17 @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Many countries have turned their regular transport truck into mraps. Maybe we could do the same with Hino and Nissan trucks that we have???? Or maybe even Mercedes Unimog trucks???? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @fatman17 @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER


yea but where is the will and the thinking for it? No one is stopping anyone from doing it except yourself. a few bunch of engineers and mechanics got together in a shed in Devon and Created the Jackal for the British army. Why cant few civilians get together and carry out something for their armed forces?

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## Ahmet Pasha

So true. Most people who have requisite qualities dnt have resources or investors to back em up. Those who do have everything needed dnt bother.


Path-Finder said:


> yea but where is the will and the thinking for it? No one is stopping anyone from doing it except yourself. a few bunch of engineers and mechanics got together in a shed in Devon and Created the Jackal for the British army. Why cant few civilians get together and carry out something for their armed forces?



I think we can make a killer badass mrap based on unimogs.


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So true. Most people who have requisite qualities dnt have resources or investors to back em up. Those who do have everything needed dnt bother.
> 
> 
> I think we can make a killer badass mrap based on unimogs.


Yea Unimog has already been turned into a MRAP by South Africa over 4 decades ago called Buffel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffel


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah but that ones ugly.
We should make cool one.
Atleast it will be better than that horrible copy attempt by HIT


Path-Finder said:


> Yea Unimog has already been turned into a MRAP by South Africa over 4 decades ago called Buffel
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffel


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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah but that ones ugly.
> We should make cool one.
> Atleast it will be better than that horrible copy attempt by HIT


bloody hell you want a sexy blonde or a vehicle that save's lives. @denel can vouch these vehicles saved lives and continue to save lives in Sri Lanka presently.

anyway the existing Truck chassis hasn't been turned into an MRAP yet, let alone spending money acquiring production for Unimog and then making an MRAP just go to South Africa fullstop.

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## Zarvan




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## fatman17

We like the easy way out in most cases, buying off the shelf. It has its advantages


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> bloody hell you want a sexy blonde or a vehicle that save's lives. @denel can vouch these vehicles saved lives and continue to save lives in Sri Lanka presently.
> 
> anyway the existing Truck chassis hasn't been turned into an MRAP yet, let alone spending money acquiring production for Unimog and then making an MRAP just go to South Africa fullstop.


This is the problem with this forum; they are looking for ferrari elegance and no purpose. mine proof vehicles have a primary mission which is to save lives not win beauty contents.

Take a buffel - refering to prior member who made the silly comments; it looks ugly and yet; i will take that vehicle anywhere; easy to maintain, super long range operations across very very harsh terrain. You need to have mindset that an entire unit of vehicles can work independently far from logistic lines.

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## denel

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah but that ones ugly.
> We should make cool one.
> Atleast it will be better than that horrible copy attempt by HIT


Man, you better spend 6 months in forward ops.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Good one


denel said:


> Man, you better spend 6 months in forward ops.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Hehe good one



denel said:


> Man, you better spend 6 months in forward ops.


----------



## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Good one





Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hehe good one


This guy is a veteran!


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah and u just sit there and cry when the supplier sanctions your @$$


fatman17 said:


> We like the easy way out in most cases, buying off the shelf. It has its advantages



Ok Im Sorry

But all I am saying is if some villager in KPK for example can make his own helicopter. Then we can do a better job than everyone out there if we set our minds to it.
So we have the requisite skill to make something even more badass than the Foxhound or the JLTV


Path-Finder said:


> This guy is a veteran!


----------



## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah and u just sit there and cry when the supplier sanctions your @$$
> 
> 
> Ok Im Sorry
> 
> But all I am saying is if some villager in KPK for example can make his own helicopter. Then we can do a better job than everyone out there if we set our minds to it.
> So we have the requisite skill to make something even more badass than the Foxhound or the JLTV


It's about critical mass or ROI when one gets into a project. For helos, there is no civilian market of note in Pakistan. On the military side, how often does the military replace it's helos. Buying at this point in time is in the long run more cost effective. JFT was a force majure for us due to sanctions. I don't think Pakistan will start another local project as the Russian market opens up and the Chinese product matures in comparison to western products.


----------



## Path-Finder

denel said:


> This is the problem with this forum; they are looking for ferrari elegance and no purpose. mine proof vehicles have a primary mission which is to save lives not win beauty contents.
> 
> Take a buffel - refering to prior member who made the silly comments; it looks ugly and yet; i will take that vehicle anywhere; easy to maintain, super long range operations across very very harsh terrain. You need to have mindset that an entire unit of vehicles can work independently far from logistic lines.









no doubt tough little buffalo

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> no doubt tough little buffalo


Indeed.... this was first gen! - 1978!. people still survived it despite what you see; how you may ask. FIrstly back top was never covered; no concussions, next was seats - a specific lumbar design was in plus belts - that was the core failure of many ifvs to this day to realise that major injuries are spinal. 
You are speaking to one who has survived 2. 
Mamba is what you need to compare against which is from 1992 onwards and seen everywhere with UN/Marines/etc.

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## Readerdefence

Hi we need something desperately asap as recently circulated BLA f...k video on the social media has shown of proper gear for FC in Baluchistan specially the way f...k have shhot the video of the ambushed of Lt col Amer and his companions 
We need something and asap please don't know what's the hitch of getting off the shelve from SA and convince them inhouse manufacturing later 
Thx


----------



## JamD

Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.





Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is Cavalier a Pakistani manufacturer??


JamD said:


> Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.
> View attachment 427469
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).


----------



## JamD

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is Cavalier a Pakistani manufacturer??


Yes.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

JamD said:


> Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.
> View attachment 427469
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).


No more?

Visit their sight :





















http://hamza8x8.com

http://cavalier.pk

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## JamD

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No more?
> 
> Visit their sight :
> 
> View attachment 427474
> View attachment 427475
> View attachment 427476
> View attachment 427477
> View attachment 427478
> View attachment 427479
> 
> http://hamza8x8.com
> 
> http://cavalier.pk


Compare the new 6x6 with the old 8x8 and you will have your answer. Private company, limited resources. That is all I will say.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

JamD said:


> Compare the new 6x6 with the old 8x8 and you will have your answer. Private company, limited resources. That is all I will say.


*variants* dude..


----------



## JamD

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *variants* dude..


I don't understand your point I guess. Could you restate your thoughts in a complete statement or question?

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## CHACHA"G"

JamD said:


> Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.
> View attachment 427469
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).


U most be joking or high on some thing , Just look right next to Hamza 6 x 6 in your on posted pic, What is that ??
@DESERT FIGHTER

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## Zarvan

JamD said:


> Compare the new 6x6 with the old 8x8 and you will have your answer. Private company, limited resources. That is all I will say.


8 X 8 not only exists but completed trials few months ago now Army will decide what to do


----------



## JamD

CHACHA"G" said:


> U most be joking or high on some thing , Just look right next to Hamza 6 x 6 in your on posted pic, What is that ??
> @DESERT FIGHTER


No I am not joking nor am I high (please remain civil). Read my posts carefully again. Yes there's a website with 3D models, and yes there is a PICTURE of the 8x8 in the poster. BUT look at what they are presenting at the exhibition. Why ONLY the 6x6? Read between the lines. I'll repeat private company, limited resources. Here's a joke for you: have you ever seen Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same room together?



Zarvan said:


> 8 X 8 not only exists but completed trials few months ago now Army will decide what to do


Who told you that? Your "source" that said it was being made in Karachi? lol. You never know when to give up do you?

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## Zarvan

JamD said:


> No I am not joking nor am I high (please remain civil). Read my posts carefully again. Yes there's a website with 3D models, and yes there is a PICTURE of the 8x8 in the poster. BUT look at what they are presenting at the exhibition. Why ONLY the 6x6? Read between the lines. I'll repeat private company, limited resources. Here's a joke for you: have you ever seen Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same room together?
> 
> 
> Who told you that? Your "source" that said it was being made in Karachi? lol. You never know when to give up do you?


Army Officers. It was going through trials and has completed recently now Army will decide


----------



## JamD

Zarvan said:


> Army Officers. It was going through trials and has completed recently now Army will decide


Lol have a nice day.

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## Path-Finder

JamD said:


> Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.
> View attachment 427469
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).








The Chassis has many possibilities even if Hamza was not successful at least a MRAP could be built on it or even a self propelled Howitzer

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## JamD

Path-Finder said:


> The Chassis has many possibilities even if Hamza was not successful at least a MRAP could be built on it or even a self propelled Howitzer


Spot the odd axle out

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## Path-Finder

JamD said:


> Spot the odd axle out



yeah must be an imported component or unpainted

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## DESERT FIGHTER

JamD said:


> I don't understand your point I guess. Could you restate your thoughts in a complete statement or question?


6X6 variant of Hamza MCV... 

Several vehicles have such variants.

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## Muhammad Omar

JamD said:


> Hamza 6x6 to be revealed at BIDEC 2017.
> View attachment 427469
> 
> 
> Hamza 8x8 is no more (and therefore impossible that it is undergoing under any testing as claimed by some members here lol).



What about the Vehicle is the most right??? There was a thread that Pakistan is gonna manufacture Light armored Vehicle


----------



## JamD

Muhammad Omar said:


> What about the Vehicle is the most right??? There was a thread that Pakistan is gonna manufacture Light armored Vehicle


No idea.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Muhammad Omar said:


> What about the Vehicle is the most right??? There was a thread that Pakistan is gonna manufacture Light armored Vehicle


 Thread was about HIT.... Cav is a private corp.


----------



## Nike

For light armored vehicle 4X4 class Indonesia had several items and they had been inducted in our Army

1. Komodo APC

They had came in several variants, including field ambulance, command vehicles, scout vehicles, APC, and Mistral carrier













2. SSE P2









This vehicle at glance you will find it look like Otokar Cobra , But thats not the case. This vehicle is being designed by our privat local companies and using many off the shelf commercial techs to saving cost and time development. Having V shape hull and capable to withstand blast from IED and have STANAG 3 level protection.

3. Indonesian light strike vehicle (APC)

A variant of ILSV family














Just wishing we can colaborrate to fulfill Pakistani army needs and made full production by license right in Pakistan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

madokafc said:


> For light armored vehicle 4X4 class Indonesia had several items and they had been inducted in our Army
> 
> 1. Komodo APC
> 
> They had came in several variants, including field ambulance, command vehicles, scout vehicles, APC, and Mistral carrier
> 
> View attachment 430071
> View attachment 430073
> View attachment 430076
> 
> 
> 2. SSE P2
> View attachment 430074
> 
> View attachment 430072
> 
> 
> This vehicle at glance you will find it look like Otokar Cobra , But thats not the case. This vehicle is being designed by our privat local companies and using many off the shelf commercial techs to saving cost and time development. Having V shape hull and capable to withstand blast from IED and have STANAG 3 level protection.
> 
> 3. Indonesian light strike vehicle (APC)
> 
> A variant of ILSV family
> View attachment 430075
> 
> 
> View attachment 430078
> 
> View attachment 430077
> 
> 
> Just wishing we can colaborrate to fulfill Pakistani army needs and made full production by license right in Pakistan


Heavy Industries Taxila is developing a LAV.

Meanwhile Pvt Companies are also marketing their vehicles...








Place we can co-operate is aero industry (CASA) and perhaps Ship Building.


----------



## Zarvan




----------



## Thunder.Storm

__ https://www.facebook.com/





PARS III 8X8 is the new generation of wheeled armored combat vehicle (WACV) designed and developed by FNSS.PARS III 8X8 has been developed with a special emphasis on mobility, protection, payload and growth potential. The vehicles employ the latest designs and technologies with a focus on the performance and durability of modern military operational requirements. The vehicles are available in 4X4, 6X6 and 8X8 configurations. The PARS family of vehicles takes its name from the“Anatolian Leopard”.

With a range of over 800 km, the PARS III 8X8 has fuel tanks incorporating special measures to protect agains explosion and puncture, and a reserve fuel tank under the armor can be called upon in emergencies. Clip on runflat system enables PARS III 8x8 to continue its mission during emergency cases.

The PARS III 8X8 hull can be brought up to the level of protection required by the user thanks to the modular design armor system. The hull form, underbelly structure, base plates and specially developed mine-resistant seats are designed to protect personnel against high-level mine threats. PARS III 8x8 has the protection level of mine-resistant
vehicles produced for personnel transport as well while differentiating itself through the provision of superior capabilities expected of a modern armored combat vehicle.

The PARS III 8x8 has an integrated air-conditioning system, and the main difference of this system that makes it stand out from its counterparts is that even in desert conditions, the vehicle’s internal temperature can be kept at +25 °C.

The modular connection of the vehicle subsystems to its mine-resistant hull ensures ease of maintenance and replacement, and it is this ease of maintenance, replacement of moving parts and power transmission systems in particular that make it superior to its counterparts. The powerpack architecture, which can be disassembled and reassembled in less than 60 minutes, allows the user to replace the engine on the field, as an additional benefit.

The PARS III 8X8 can be transported by air (A400, C17 & C5), sea, train or land.

2 Thermal Cameras and 3 CCD Cameras in the Front and Rear, Providing Driver/ Commander with High Situational Awareness
Front and Rear Axle Steering
All Wheel Drive
Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
Central Tire Inflation (CTI) and Run Flat Tire Inserts
Integrated Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)
Integrated Survivability Suite
Modularity Allowing the Use Of Common Components
Hydro-Pneumatic Suspension System with Ride Height Control


----------



## Muhammad Omar

What happened to PARS 8x8 is it under trials or in talks???

What happened to PARS 8x8 is it under trials or in talks???

What happened to PARS 8x8 is it under trials or in talks???


----------



## Thunder.Storm




----------



## STRANGER BIRD




----------



## razgriz19

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No more?
> 
> Visit their sight :
> 
> View attachment 427474
> View attachment 427475
> View attachment 427476
> View attachment 427477
> View attachment 427478
> View attachment 427479
> 
> http://hamza8x8.com
> 
> http://cavalier.pk


Well just because they have it doesn't mean PA ordered it.


----------



## denel

madokafc said:


> For light armored vehicle 4X4 class Indonesia had several items and they had been inducted in our Army
> 
> 1. Komodo APC
> 
> They had came in several variants, including field ambulance, command vehicles, scout vehicles, APC, and Mistral carrier
> 
> View attachment 430071
> View attachment 430073
> View attachment 430076
> 
> 
> 2. SSE P2
> View attachment 430074
> 
> View attachment 430072
> 
> 
> This vehicle at glance you will find it look like Otokar Cobra , But thats not the case. This vehicle is being designed by our privat local companies and using many off the shelf commercial techs to saving cost and time development. Having V shape hull and capable to withstand blast from IED and have STANAG 3 level protection.
> 
> 3. Indonesian light strike vehicle (APC)
> 
> A variant of ILSV family
> View attachment 430075
> 
> 
> View attachment 430078
> 
> View attachment 430077
> 
> 
> Just wishing we can colaborrate to fulfill Pakistani army needs and made full production by license right in Pakistan


all series of death traps.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hamza Platform is ideal for Military














This vehicle is nice to add , with Automated GUN


----------



## Nike

denel said:


> all series of death traps.



South Africa have good products in defense industries, but not a good forummer indeed

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## denel

madokafc said:


> South Africa have good products in defense industries, but not a good forummer indeed


The topic is around mineproof infantry fighting vehicles; there we remain the leader. The good news is we have now multiple players within our own market which are contributing to further innovation.


----------



## Path-Finder

South African REVA MRAP






Survived 20KG IED in Thailand






Thailand has developed a MRAP as well, most likely based on the REVA called Phantom 380X

Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> South African REVA MRAP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Survived 20KG IED in Thailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thailand has developed a MRAP as well, most likely based on the REVA called Phanton 380X
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan


Some time I really feel doing a protest outside GHQ for not getting MRAP for our soldiers


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Some time I really feel doing a protest outside GHQ for not getting MRAP for our soldiers


I will travel all the way and join you in the protest. Everyone is rapidly adopting MRAP as a standard tool for their security. Why the hell are we delaying it.

Hazrat you have connections and on a serious note do you know any good engineers in Pakistan I believe we should do something instead of waiting.

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## Zarvan



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## Mumm-Ra

Zarvan said:


>


That looks something outta death race...


----------



## Zarvan

Xlvee01 said:


> That looks something outta death race...


Turkey is using this in current Syrian Operation


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Turkey is using this in current Syrian Operation


Hazrat they are not using it with skulls on the grill and two truck exhausts on the side. That picture is photo shop from Mad Max

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat they are not using it with skulls on the grill and two truck exhausts on the side. That picture is photo shop from Mad Max


It's not I asked Turkish guys they have actually done this on their Ejder 4 X 4



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat they are not using it with skulls on the grill and two truck exhausts on the side. That picture is photo shop from Mad Max


I knew about the movie that is why I asked them


----------



## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> I will travel all the way and join you in the protest. Everyone is rapidly adopting MRAP as a standard tool for their security. Why the hell are we delaying it.


Can an MRAP also survive a direct hit from RPG?


----------



## Path-Finder

The Sandman said:


> Can an MRAP also survive a direct hit from RPG?



it can if it has the mesh on it

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> it can if it has the mesh on it


But won't that hamper it's mobility in jungle or mountainous terrain?

Cuz in WW2 Germans installed these side skirts or "Schurzen" to stop HEAT rounds and i have heard the tank crews hated them cuz they hampered the mobility in terrains other than roads.





also can an MRAP's windows have ability to stop .50 cal or a more heavier round?

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## Path-Finder

The Sandman said:


> But won't that hamper it's mobility in jungle or mountainous terrain?
> 
> Cuz in WW2 Germans installed these side skirts or "Schurzen" to stop HEAT rounds and i have heard the tank crews hated them cuz they hampered the mobility in terrains other than roads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also can an MRAP's windows have ability to stop .50 cal or a more heavier round?



That is skirt against tank shells. which is far more destructive. MRAP is for mines beneath the vehicle and ambush. Ambush generally does not have heavy weapons used against them because heavy weapons for a guerilla force is a death sentence it defeats the purpose of being light hit and run.

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## Khafee

The Sandman said:


> But won't that hamper it's mobility in jungle or mountainous terrain?
> 
> Cuz in WW2 Germans installed these side skirts or "Schurzen" to stop HEAT rounds and i have heard the tank crews hated them cuz they hampered the mobility in terrains other than roads.
> 
> 
> 
> Reply
> 
> also can an MRAP's windows have ability to stop .50 cal or a more heavier round?


50 cal bullets

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> 50 cal bullets
> View attachment 431457



That is one sexy MRAP

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## Khafee

Path-Finder said:


> That is one sexy MRAP


https://www.nimr.ae/product/jais4x4/

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> That is skirt against tank shells. which is far more destructive. MRAP is for mines beneath the vehicle and ambush. Ambush generally does not have heavy weapons used against them because heavy weapons for a guerilla force is a death sentence it defeats the purpose of being light hit and run.


But what if a situation arises where MRAP is used to launch an assault?



Khafee said:


> 50 cal bullets
> View attachment 431457


Looks beastly and pff those bullets barely scratched it.

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## Path-Finder

The Sandman said:


> But what if a situation arises where MRAP is used to launch an assault?
> 
> 
> Looks beastly and pff those bullets barely scratched it.



The biggest use of MRAP in history was in southern Africa by South Africa in their bush/border wars. that is the best source of their potential. one forum Member here denel is a veteran of that campaign.

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## The Sandman

Path-Finder said:


> one forum Member here denel is a veteran of that campaign.


So he's a former soldier? wonder why he never got the "Professional" title than?


Path-Finder said:


> The biggest use of MRAP in history was in southern Africa by South Africa in their bush/border wars. that is the best source of their potential.


Thx will try to read up on it.

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## Gryphon

_VCC-1 Camillino during exercise Al-Samsam 6_

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## python-000

Pakistan need to develop something like that !!!

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## python-000

watch this


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

90's music 


python-000 said:


> watch this


----------



## python-000

Ahmet Pasha said:


> 90's music


posted for watching not for listening music


----------



## STRANGER BIRD



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## python-000

*plz* left to make these box type of designs


----------



## Super Falcon

python-000 said:


> Pakistan need to develop something like that !!!
> View attachment 439841
> View attachment 439842


Definitely u hit bullseye bro

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## DESERT FIGHTER

python-000 said:


> Pakistan need to develop something like that !!!
> View attachment 439841
> View attachment 439842
















STRANGER BIRD said:


> View attachment 440998

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## Ahmet Pasha

Those decender based mohaffiz look very impressive. Are they made by HIT???


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 441320
> View attachment 441321
> View attachment 441322
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 441323
> View attachment 441324
> View attachment 441325
> View attachment 441326

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## Zarvan




----------



## ziaulislam

python-000 said:


> watch this


this was a failure...


----------



## python-000

ziaulislam said:


> this was a failure...


NO, it was not a failure & it still in use & US upgrading a large fleet of them.


----------



## Shabi1

python-000 said:


> watch this



Bradley was a failure. Must watch video about project management scope creep.


----------



## ziaulislam

python-000 said:


> NO, it was not a failure & it still in use & US upgrading a large fleet of them.


please read about the bradely scandle
sherman was also a failure
dont think US generals dont do mistakes
every one does


----------



## Signalian

Pakistan needs a MRAP to be used by troops on western front....not an APC or IFV.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Pakistan needs a MRAP to be used by troops on western front....not an APC or IFV.


On western border IFV and APC are needed it's cities and inside our own areas like Wazristan and other tribal areas where MRAP are needed and in large numbers

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> On western border IFV and APC are needed it's cities and inside our own areas like Wazristan and other tribal areas where MRAP are needed and in large numbers


Sir,
the border with Afghanistan is mountain and hilly terrain, IFV and APC are easy targets there and will have mobility issues. Its best to use MRAP's on ground and air mobile forces otherwise.


----------



## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> On western border IFV and APC are needed it's cities and inside our own areas like Wazristan and other tribal areas where MRAP are needed and in large numbers


pakistan doesnt has any good APC anyway MRAPS are good in both places



Shabi1 said:


> Bradley was a failure. Must watch video about project management scope creep.


one reason why professionalism and open accountability is important
i like that fact about Indian armed forces

reminds of LCA lol

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## khanasifm

Strike Corps and may be others have https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M901_ITV


----------



## ziaulislam

more like arjun

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Baktar Shikan has some limitations and good points .
> 
> The good points are having a tandem warhead to beat ERA and spaced armour. The operation is easy and in some ways similar to TOW which PA already operated. It has anti-jamming capability also.
> 
> Limitations are that It is fired when stationary, as far as i know. Secondly, its not fire and forget. So the missile operator will stay engaged till the target is destroyed as he has to guide the missile to the target keeping target in his cross hairs.



121 TOW launchers were upgraded to fire TOW 2A RF missiles. That should provide fire on the move capability.

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## Zarvan



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## HRK

Zarvan said:


>



Reminds me PUMBA

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## BERKEKHAN2

Zarvan said:


>


Will this be inducted in PA or it just like "yasoob" project


----------



## fatman17

Bakshi tufail said:


> Will this be inducted in PA or it just like "yasoob" project


Problem with yasoob project was it was not planned for civilian use, hence the high cost of production. army only needed 400 trucks at that time. poor planning.

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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Problem with yasoob project was it was not planned for civilian use, hence the high cost of production. army only needed 400 trucks at that time. poor planning.




What is yasoob project?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Bakshi tufail said:


> Will this be inducted in PA or it just like "yasoob" project


Hundreds of yasoobs are in service... Mostly used by Arty regiments... Coz of its capacity and power... To pull howitzers.


Just today I saw them on Lahore motorway... Pulling guns...

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## BERKEKHAN2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Hundreds of yasoobs are in service... Mostly used by Arty regiments... Coz of its capacity and power... To pull howitzers.
> 
> 
> Just today I saw them on Lahore motorway... Pulling guns...


 Could you provide a picture


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

monitor said:


> What is yasoob project?


Pak made military truck :









Bakshi tufail said:


> Could you provide a picture


I didn't take pics. Coz I was driving. 


Here are a few pulling AA guns :

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## BERKEKHAN2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak made military truck :
> 
> View attachment 445471
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't take pics. Coz I was driving.
> 
> 
> Here are a few pulling AA guns :
> View attachment 445472


Thanks bro

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## fatman17

MADE IN PAKISTAN "Yasoob" was an indigenous effort by Pakistan army to manufacture Trucks for heavy transport. 300 Yasoob trucks were made in Pakistan...

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## fatman17



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## Ahmet Pasha

Only if Tri services could increase synergy, standerdize needs, and jointly make many more based on scale.


fatman17 said:


> View attachment 445534

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## Bossman

fatman17 said:


> MADE IN PAKISTAN "Yasoob" was an indigenous effort by Pakistan army to manufacture Trucks for heavy transport. 300 Yasoob trucks were made in Pakistan...


It was basically managed by the state owned Automobile Corporation of Pakistan run by a guy called Barki. It was a total disaster. I am not sure if it was revived. The pictures seem old.

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## Path-Finder

Phantom 380-X MRAP Thailand!






First Win 4x4






Meanwhile in Pakistan there is no need for them

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## araz

Ca


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Hundreds of yasoobs are in service... Mostly used by Arty regiments... Coz of its capacity and power... To pull howitzers.
> 
> 
> Just today I saw them on Lahore motorway... Pulling guns...


Can you please elaborate what actually happened with the project?
A

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## Bossman

araz said:


> Ca
> 
> Can you please elaborate what actually happened with the project?
> A



Corruption and mismanagement by Automobile Corruption of Pakistan. It was not an army project. It was closed down.

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## HRK

araz said:


> Can you please elaborate what actually happened with the project?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whatever-happened-to-the-yasoob-project.128830/page-2#post-6090191
https://www.dawn.com/news/367213
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2011/03/10/pac-orders-nab-to-speed-up-cases/

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Phantom 380-X MRAP Thailand!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First Win 4x4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in Pakistan there is no need for them



Because we are invincible

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/949034470065270787
A dream


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Which ones are those???


Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/949034470065270787
> A dream


----------



## Signalian

This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.






When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here? 

@Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here?
> 
> @Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon





I say:wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here !

A impressiv Video, very enjoybale !

In my opinion:

- the Vehicles should have been on distance from the villages
- vehicles onboard scouting and observing systems must be used to locate and check the area for targets
- not all vehicles should drive at the same time and route in the area should try to attack always from 2-3 sides
- mass of vehicles must stay in the background and try to use board guns/weapons to pin down enemy infantry from long range
-an advantage of long-range onboard weapons was not used
- Infantry must dismount and try to locate targets for the vehicles heavy board weapons
-smoke grenades and tubes were not used
-even when the vehicles didd came under fire they dont move and try to finde a new defensive position

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## DavidSling

Signalian said:


> This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here?
> 
> @Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon


Should get themselves some APS and mine detector on their vehicles
equivelent in the Israeli army





Namer IFV/APC with Trophy APS




Mine detector

Also, infantry brigade should be integrated into the armored core.

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## GriffinsRule

In urban warfare, that is bound to happen, no matter how advanced your platforms are. Just too many places to ambush using shoot and scoot tactics. Not all terrain is conducive to armor, especially without infantry to support them. Some of these vehicles might have been abandoned after breaking down as well.

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## Ahmet Pasha

They certainly are wasting oil money.

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here?
> 
> @Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon



I think @Ulla has provided an appropriate answer.

In FATA, PA uses attached sand bags to cover the sensitive sides of APC's. And sometimes cage armour. 

IMO, several new IABG's with modern MBT's and tracked IFV's are required for eastern border to launch counter-offensives against the invading IA CSD brigades without relying entirely on LAT's/HAT's for holding some areas.

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## AMG_12

Signalian said:


> This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here?
> 
> @Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon


Wrong Tactics, they'll learn it the hard way. IFVs are sitting ducks if not supplemented by Infantry in urban warfare.

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## Inception-06

Game.Invade said:


> Wrong Tactics, they'll learn it the hard way. IFVs are sitting ducks if not supplemented by Infantry in urban warfare.




@Gryphon @Signalian

@Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battle scene is very important, to understand my post:


Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he

I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all what you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!







-lack of leadership

- lack of discipline

- no coordination

-no rational communication

-no experience in a live firing exercise

-no will do die and make sacrifices

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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battel scene is very important, to understand my post:
> 
> 
> Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he
> 
> I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all that you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!
> 
> View attachment 448077
> 
> 
> 
> -lack of leadership
> 
> - lack of discipline
> 
> - no coordination
> 
> -no rational communication
> 
> -no experience in a live firing exercise
> 
> -no will do die and make sacrifices



PA is helping them with COIN training. From Al-Samsam 6 exercise

Fast rope





Dismount from vehicles





However I agree, they need to grow a pair of balls as well.

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## AMG_12

Ulla said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battel scene is very important, to understand my post:
> 
> 
> Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he
> 
> I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all that you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!
> 
> View attachment 448077
> 
> 
> 
> -lack of leadership
> 
> - lack of discipline
> 
> - no coordination
> 
> -no rational communication
> 
> -no experience in a live firing exercise
> 
> -no will do die and make sacrifices


We too learned it the hard way when our convoys were badly ambushed in FATA and SWAT. Since our troops mobility is dependent on unprotected vehicles mainly trucks, the casualties were outstanding. Those events resulted in the reconfiguration and development of new strategies including the introduction of mobile jammers to the battlefield, aerial protection and as you mentioned, dismounted troops. The Saudi battlefield is a lot different from ours and so they've to tailor their strategies as per their terrain, the type of enemy faced and the resources at hand.

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> I say:wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here !
> 
> A impressiv Video, very enjoybale !
> 
> In my opinion:
> 
> - the Vehicles should have been on distance from the villages
> - vehicles onboard scouting and observing systems must be used to locate and check the area for targets
> - not all vehicles should drive at the same time and route in the area should try to attack always from 2-3 sides
> - mass of vehicles must stay in the background and try to use board guns/weapons to pin down enemy infantry from long range
> -an advantage of long-range onboard weapons was not used
> - Infantry must dismount and try to locate targets for the vehicles heavy board weapons
> -smoke grenades and tubes were not used
> -even when the vehicles didd came under fire they dont move and try to finde a new defensive position


very good observation 

Artillery fire Plus CAS helicopters. PA uses attack helis AH-1 with ground troops, while KSA AH-64's are no where to be seen. Lastly, apart from infantry, PA also uses SSG and other SF wings of other forces.



Ulla said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battle scene is very important, to understand my post:
> 
> 
> Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he
> 
> I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all what you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!
> 
> View attachment 448077
> 
> 
> 
> -lack of leadership
> 
> - lack of discipline
> 
> - no coordination
> 
> -no rational communication
> 
> -no experience in a live firing exercise
> 
> -no will do die and make sacrifices


Very right !
Having modern equipment is no guarantee that a war can be successfully conducted. The troops have to walk into fire zone to conduct ops properly.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> very good observation
> 
> Artillery fire Plus CAS helicopters. PA uses attack helis AH-1 with ground troops, while KSA AH-64's are no where to be seen. Lastly, apart from infantry, PA also uses SSG and other SF wings of other forces.
> 
> 
> Very right !
> Having modern equipment is no guarantee that a war can be successfully conducted. The troops have to walk into fire zone to conduct ops properly.



How much Attention the Pakistan Army is giving for the study of WW2 war history/battles/tactics/strategies ? Is this only a part of own interests and freetime or regular duty ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battle scene is very important, to understand my post:
> 
> 
> Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he
> 
> I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all what you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!
> 
> View attachment 448077
> 
> 
> 
> -lack of leadership
> 
> - lack of discipline
> 
> - no coordination
> 
> -no rational communication
> 
> -no experience in a live firing exercise
> 
> -no will do die and make sacrifices




Pic is from ideas exhibition showcasing Talha APC’s.


----------



## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pic is from ideas exhibition showcasing Talha APC’s.




Yes I know, I wanted show how our Infantry can dismount, and how the saudis are doing their job !

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> How much Attention the Pakistan Army is giving for the study of WW2 war history/battles/tactics/strategies ? Is this only a part of own interests and freetime or regular duty ?


from YO's course(young officer course), at start of commission throughout career to General (NDU courses), there is alot of study in Army so yes all wars are covered.

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## Zarvan

@Horus @Path-Finder @Arsalan @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @balixd

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## Sulman Badshah

Kirpi 1 protection ‎STANAG 4569 Level 3 was not satisfactory ... This one seems interesting if they have addressed the shortcomings

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## Path-Finder

Hazrat teasing us

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DavidSling said:


> Should get themselves some APS and mine detector on their vehicles
> equivelent in the Israeli army
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namer IFV/APC with Trophy APS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mine detector
> 
> Also, infantry brigade should be integrated into the armored core.


You are talking of an entirely different thing.. Mechanised Infantry.. Pak also has a massive MIB component...


----------



## YeBeWarned

@Signalian @Gryphon @Inception-06 did you guys notice , most of the attacked Vehicles are isolated , seems like a poor strategy from the Saudi's , they are relying too much on the machine and not on the ground troops infact PA has proved with the efficiency from the Operations in FATA how much it can be effective to dismount troops after cordoning off the area .. 

Hell even American in Afghanistan used the Dismounted troop tactic to reverse any Ambush attacks from Taliban .

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## denel

Starlord said:


> @Signalian @Gryphon @Inception-06 did you guys notice , most of the attacked Vehicles are isolated , seems like a poor strategy from the Saudi's , they are relying too much on the machine and not on the ground troops infact PA has proved with the efficiency from the Operations in FATA how much it can be effective to dismount troops after cordoning off the area ..
> 
> Hell even American in Afghanistan used the Dismounted troop tactic to reverse any Ambush attacks from Taliban .


Do you expect Saudi to have the agility to even make a dash given their BMI?

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Do you expect Saudi to have the agility to even make a dash given their BMI?



you mean Body Mass Index?

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## Zarvan

The picture is from Poland. They are having their Defence expo from 4th to 7th September

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The picture is from Poland. They are having their Defence expo from 4th to 7th September


Derwaish what that SP arty behind it?


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Derwaish what that SP arty behind it?


Well let their Defence exhibition start than we would know. I am expecting 3 to 4 major new things being revealed by Poland in their expo this year which starts from 4th of this month. Those things can explain why our people were visiting Poland so much but this MRAP is pure beauty


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well let their Defence exhibition start than we would know. I am expecting 3 to 4 major new things being revealed by Poland in their expo this year which starts from 4th of this month. Those things can explain why our people were visiting Poland so much but this MRAP is pure beauty


I think it's to do with MRAP and IFV. Tank components to upgrade armour.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I think it's to do with MRAP and IFV. Tank components to upgrade armour.


I talked to a guy who runs famous defense website he told me few things few months ago that they would be revealed in this year exhibition in Poland I am waiting to see whether he was right or not

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## Ahmet Pasha

Where is my SCAR???


Zarvan said:


> I talked to a guy who runs famous defense website he told me few things few months ago that they would be revealed in this year exhibition in Poland I am waiting to see whether he was right or not

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Where is my SCAR???


Talks are on soon something will be announced. Gun is decided and talks are taking place


----------



## Aamir Hussain

Built up areas:

1. Dismount out side of the built up areas
2. Send in Tactical Drones to recon area around the stopped AFV's first and then recon the built up areas
3. Setup perimter security around the Veh.
3. Send in the troops from two sides to clear immediate area under cover of AFV's fire and Drone.
4. Once area cleared, move AFV element n the other to remain outside with close in dismounted security.
5. move forward with bounding over-watch.

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## STRANGER BIRD

Locally developed Interceptor Light Armored Vehicle.

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## STRANGER BIRD

*

Dragoon Armored Vehicle.*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Can remote detonator jamming devices, fire direction locators be mounted on this platform??


STRANGER BIRD said:


> Locally developed Interceptor Light Armored Vehicle.


----------



## Zarvan

One of the many armored vehicles shown by China this year @LKJ86

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## STRANGER BIRD

Hamza 6X6 with Turret mounted weapon system.

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## Muhammad Omar

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Hamza 6X6 with Turret mounted weapon system.


No HAMZA 8X8 or Interceptor by Cavalier Group ???


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Ay that looks like what cavalier displayed i.e MCV 4x4 variant from Hamza family.


Zarvan said:


> One of the many armored vehicles shown by China this year @LKJ86


----------



## Zarvan

@Horus @Oscar @balixd @RescueRanger @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Arsalan

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> @Horus @Oscar @balixd @RescueRanger @Arsalan @Path-Finder @Arsalan



UQAAB COUGAR INTERCEPTOR many vehicles were shown but aren't procured by the armed forces or police rangers etc

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Muhammad Omar said:


> UQAAB COUGAR INTERCEPTOR many vehicles were shown but aren't procured by the armed forces or police rangers etc


These vehicles are different.

uqaab (an armouref luxury suv)
Cougar? 
Interceptor : used in PAF, Bahrain

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## Muhammad Omar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> These vehicles are different.
> 
> uqaab (an armouref luxury suv)
> Cougar?
> Interceptor : used in PAF, Bahrain



The pics which Zarvan just shared are of Cougar

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## python-000

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Hamza 6X6 with Turret mounted weapon system.


As i Photoshop it before

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## Zarvan



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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


>


Hi zarvan nice video though this should be projected with full load inside to judge its performance
In real time scenario
Thank you


----------



## Zarvan

Lazar 3 8x8 armored vehicle in live firing demonstration during Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 26, 2019.





Achleitner HMV Survivor I at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019. 




Achleitner HMV Survivor I at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019.





TRB unveils serial production of its Despot 4x4 armored vehicle at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Lazar 3 8x8 armored vehicle in live firing demonstration during Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 26, 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achleitner HMV Survivor I at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achleitner HMV Survivor I at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TRB unveils serial production of its Despot 4x4 armored vehicle at Partner 2019, International Fair of Armament and Defense Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 27, 2019.


MAULANA SAHIB,

Are these in Pakistani inventory?

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## Tamiyah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MAULANA SAHIB,
> 
> Are these in Pakistani inventory?


They are not in Pakistani inventory he is posting just to let you guys know that there are new vehicles in town.


----------



## Khafee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MAULANA SAHIB,
> 
> Are these in Pakistani inventory?


Let me take the liberty of quoting @DESERT FIGHTER :

"fk no"

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MAULANA SAHIB,
> 
> Are these in Pakistani inventory?


These are merely suggestions. Specially MRAP one. Because I am fed up of seeing soldiers getting attacked and killed as they are travelling in those miserable Hilux.

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## Tamiyah

Zarvan said:


> These are merely suggestions. Specially MRAP one. Because I am fed up of seeing soldiers getting attacked and killed as they are travelling in those miserable Hilux.


All the developed or underdeveloped countries five their soldiers or policeman a nice secure car but in Pakistan police and army are given "tooty phooti" hilux. We need to upgrade our police cars in order them to attain much better efficiency from them.

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## Keysersoze

Tamiyah said:


> All the developed or underdeveloped countries five their soldiers or policeman a nice secure car but in Pakistan police and army are given "tooty phooti" hilux. We need to upgrade our police cars in order them to attain much better efficiency from them.


Dude I am all for supplying troops good equipment but to supply the reserves alone with enough vehicles of this type would require at least 10000 vehicles. work out the cost.


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

A look into how the bradly IFV came about.

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## denel

Tamiyah said:


> All the developed or underdeveloped countries five their soldiers or policeman a nice secure car but in Pakistan police and army are given "tooty phooti" hilux. We need to upgrade our police cars in order them to attain much better efficiency from them.


For police you need the equivalent of Nyala/RG12

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## Tamiyah

denel said:


> For police you need the equivalent of Nyala/RG12


Yeah pretty much.


----------



## Philip the Arab

denel said:


> For police you need the equivalent of Nyala/RG12


This vehicle on Toyota Hilux could probably work. It apparently protects against 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and has a RWS. Wouldn't this be more cost effective for threats police face than RG-31?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

denel said:


> For police you need the equivalent of Nyala/RG12


You want this:






To replace the usual policing vehicle:

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## denel

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You want this:
> 
> View attachment 586260
> 
> 
> To replace the usual policing vehicle:
> 
> View attachment 586261


Yes. trivia - do you see the vertial inverted L pointing forward - do you know what it is there for? You will see it on all our APCs as well. There is a reason but want to ask members to take their shot at it.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Philip the Arab said:


> This vehicle on Toyota Hilux could probably work. It apparently protects against 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and has a RWS. Wouldn't this be more cost effective for threats police face than RG-31?


Why would we import it when we build and export (Oman was the first customer) this:











denel said:


> Yes. trivia - do you see the vertial inverted L pointing forward - do you know what it is there for? You will see it on all our APCs as well. There is a reason but want to ask members to take their shot at it.


Why dont you tell us?

Also its an overkill, cops arent going to patrol and take criminals to court in am armoured vehicle. Unless they operate in a war zone.

These hiluxs are used by beat cops for raids, patrolling and transporting assh0les (that includes cops).









They even have a light armoured version of it:






They got cars etc for usual business..

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## Signalian



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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Yes. trivia - do you see the vertial inverted L pointing forward - do you know what it is there for? You will see it on all our APCs as well. There is a reason but want to ask members to take their shot at it.



Wire cutter?


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Wire cutter?


You nailed it!. many of our soldiers lost their necks during township duties; then these were put in from 70's onward.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

denel said:


> Yes. trivia - do you see the vertial inverted L pointing forward - do you know what it is there for? You will see it on all our APCs as well. There is a reason but want to ask members to take their shot at it.


Even WWII jeeps used wire cutters:






I thought yours was something else. Oh well..


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## denel

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even WWII jeeps used wire cutters:
> View attachment 591805
> 
> 
> I thought yours was something else. Oh well..


yes correct; i was pointing out the high and aft position; in the townships patrol, steel wires would be put out.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Any word on LAVA/Hamza MCV family???
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> You nailed it!. many of our soldiers lost their necks during township duties; then these were put in from 70's onward.



Never knew we had these beasts?

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## Affanakad0t.

Do anyone have exect numbers how many talha m113 and other apcs ifvs we have?


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## Ahmet Pasha

These are Turkish right??


Dazzler said:


> Never knew we had these beasts?


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## Dazzler

Ahmet Pasha said:


> These are Turkish right??


South African.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Wat happened to Hamza??


Dazzler said:


> South African.


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## nomi007

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Wat happened to Hamza??


Dumped

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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> Dumped


nope ....

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## Bossman

Affanakad0t. said:


> Do anyone have exect numbers how many talha m113 and other apcs ifvs we have?


Close to 3,000


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## Ahmet Pasha

Why it was supposed to be our own program?


nomi007 said:


> Dumped


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## Readerdefence

Bossman said:


> Close to 3,000


Hi are you sure my friend or just a rumour coz then why on earth they not using these specifically in Baluchistan where recently an unfortunate incident happened 
Thank you


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## Affanakad0t.

Readerdefence said:


> Hi are you sure my friend or just a rumour coz then why on earth they not using these specifically in Baluchistan where recently an unfortunate incident happened
> Thank you


FC KO KACHRA MILTA HAI.


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## denel

Dazzler said:


> Never knew we had these beasts?


Back... my friends.


Yes, this is good old casspir. What is it doing with you? I do not recall it ever being in your service there.



Dazzler said:


> South African.


This is SANDF backbone in late 70s/80s. This is the blueprint from which all others have evolved e.g. oshkosh etc. as the same engineers helped others.

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> Back... my friends.
> 
> 
> Yes, this is good old casspir. What is it doing with you? I do not recall it ever being in your service there.
> 
> 
> This is SANDF backbone in late 70s/80s. This is the blueprint from which all others have evolved e.g. oshkosh etc. as the same engineers helped others.


I think we got those recently. We received many goodies for different services post 2010.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> Back... my friends.
> 
> 
> Yes, this is good old casspir. What is it doing with you? I do not recall it ever being in your service there.
> 
> 
> This is SANDF backbone in late 70s/80s. This is the blueprint from which all others have evolved e.g. oshkosh etc. as the same engineers helped others.


Hi denel & welcome back so can you gather some info about routing these to PA 
As I’m not asking for you know numbers game but when & from where I mean can PA get it from somewhere else beside SA 
& what’s their standards against the latest one with SA 
Thank you

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## Affanakad0t.

Dazzler said:


> I think we got those recently. We received many goodies for different services post 2010.


How much in numbers?


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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel & welcome back so can you gather some info about routing these to PA
> As I’m not asking for you know numbers game but when & from where I mean can PA get it from somewhere else beside SA
> & what’s their standards against the latest one with SA
> Thank you


Sure i will do that; i have been very busy after i got back.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> Sure i will do that; i have been very busy after i got back.


Hi denel that’s absolutely fine with me take your time my friend you are an asset on this forum 
Hopefully we will be having you often with some nice information from your posts through your busy schedule 
Thank you


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## Rocky rock

How many of these we have & those coming from Afghanistan are still on list?


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## Dazzler

Rocky rock said:


> How many of these we have & those coming from Afghanistan are still on list?
> View attachment 636367


250+. Possibly more are coming

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## Blacklight

Dazzler said:


> 250+. Possibly more are coming


How are they being paid for?

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## AMG_12

Dazzler said:


> 250+. Possibly more are coming


No, the numbers are much lower. And they aren't actively deployed but stationed in some of the major cantonments to be used for CT ops.


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## Aryeih Leib

What happened to this project?

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## Path-Finder

I saw a new development from SA. OTT Technologies, OTT Puma M26-15 which is based on tata chassis/driveline.






https://ott.co.za/puma-m26-about/

why not get some bedford chassis MRAP?

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## imranyounus

Army does not need MRAP in regular threat environment on eastern border. Rather MRAP are required for internal and on western border and more so in Baluchistan. its a pity that people in helms of affair are least interested in Rangers and FC. They should be the primary users of such vehicles. 

Its was astonishing to hear PA stationing all such assets in their cantonments rather than transferring same to FC and Rangers. At least they should resume the Burraq MRP project and develop a low cast vehicle for FC and Rangers.

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## Inception-06

Path-Finder said:


> I saw a new development from SA. OTT Technologies, OTT Puma M26-15 which is based on tata chassis/driveline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ott.co.za/puma-m26-about/
> 
> why not get some bedford chassis MRAP?



is bedford still produced in pakistan ?


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## PanzerKiel

imranyounus said:


> Army does not need MRAP in regular threat environment on eastern border. Rather MRAP are required for internal and on western border and more so in Baluchistan. its a pity that people in helms of affair are least interested in Rangers and FC. They should be the primary users of such vehicles.
> 
> Its was astonishing to hear PA stationing all such assets in their cantonments rather than transferring same to FC and Rangers. At least they should resume the Burraq MRP project and develop a low cast vehicle for FC and Rangers.



Since FC, Rangers etc are not under army but under Ministry, that's where people responsible for them are sitting, having all the funds and authority.

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## Path-Finder

Inception-06 said:


> is bedford still produced in pakistan ?


I have no idea!

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## Aamir Hussain

Nope not produced anymore. However, this was the only product that was produced ground up as at that time we had procured the whole production line and jigs tools from UK and producing it in Pakistan as Bedford Rocket (TJ Series). The engine block was produced by Bela Engineering if I am not mistaken. The engine was very popular and used as engines in fishing boats, tube wells and even in generators of that time.

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## Affanakad0t.

PanzerKiel said:


> Since FC, Rangers etc are not under army but under Ministry, that's where people responsible for them are sitting, having all the funds and authority.


Rangers still using 1970s G3 and type 56

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## bananarepublic

Aamir Hussain said:


> Nope not produced anymore. However, this was the only product that was produced ground up as at that time we had procured the whole production line and jigs tools from UK and producing it in Pakistan as Bedford Rocket (TJ Series). The engine block was produced by Bela Engineering if I am not mistaken. The engine was very popular and used as engines in fishing boats, tube wells and even in generators of that time.



I believe Hinopak is producing trucks locally and i believe Bedford went out of the truck business years ago

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## Rocky rock

So why aren't we using it on western border with Afghanistan & iran? Daily our soldier's are getting martyred in an ambush by mines etc. Why still using Toyota hilux?

And where are those thousands of M113/ Hamza Apc's? Getting rusted to be used in Ghazwa-e-hind?


Dazzler said:


> 250+. Possibly more are coming

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## Tipu7

Rocky rock said:


> How many of these we have & those coming from Afghanistan are still on list?
> View attachment 636367


320+.
More American MRAPS from Afghanistan are on agenda.

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## Affanakad0t.

We are getting much from this peace deal.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> 320+.
> More American MRAPS from Afghanistan are on agenda.


Through CSF?


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## Gentelman

Rocky rock said:


> So why aren't we using it on western border with Afghanistan & iran? Daily our soldier's are getting martyred in an ambush by mines etc. Why still using Toyota hilux?
> 
> And where are those thousands of M113/ Hamza Apc's? Getting rusted to be used in Ghazwa-e-hind?


Probably because the fatility rate on proper roads is almost equal to zero, issues occur where the terrain is too tough for even the MRAPs for daily patrolling or recon.
Someone professional from Army can uncover the real reasons but there must be some as Army personalls also realize what we do shout...



Readerdefence said:


> Hi are you sure my friend or just a rumour coz then why on earth they not using these specifically in Baluchistan where recently an unfortunate incident happened
> Thank you


Assigned to mechanized infantary, not FC. 
Moreover they are tracked hence suitable for plains, not rocky difficult terrain!

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## __Jihadi__

Pakistan need a descent latest design and technology based MRAP in it's inventory, we'll become a vintage army if we fail to develop a descent tank or MRAP for ourself it is the need of this house to minimize the casualties in balochistan and fata


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## denel

__Jihadi__ said:


> Pakistan need a descent latest design and technology based MRAP in it's inventory, we'll become a vintage army if we fail to develop a descent tank or MRAP for ourself it is the need of this house to minimize the casualties in balochistan and fata


I really am amazed; producing mine proof vehicle is not rocket science. We started it from early 80s. 

Attaching first gen from Rhodesia where it all began..... If they could do it in the backwaters of southern rhodesia - why not now?

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## __Jihadi__

denel said:


> I really am amazed; producing mine proof vehicle is not rocket science. We started it from early 80s.
> 
> Attaching first gen from Rhodesia where it all began..... If they could do it in the backwaters of southern rhodesia - why not now?
> View attachment 641246


issue is our budget, we can not afford to equip our army with these modern techs therefore we are relying on these ww2 era machines and the little modern machines we have are kept safe for the hard times


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## Ahmet Pasha

Budget is not the issue. Lack of foresight and creativity is the issue. Falling in the feet of Gora for every little piece of technology is the issue.


__Jihadi__ said:


> issue is our budget, we can not afford to equip our army with these modern techs therefore we are relying on these ww2 era machines and the little modern machines we have are kept safe for the hard times

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## denel

__Jihadi__ said:


> issue is our budget, we can not afford to equip our army with these modern techs therefore we are relying on these ww2 era machines and the little modern machines we have are kept safe for the hard times


Please read what i wrote and see that photos!. That is real. 

Mine proof vehicles are our core business; you keep on asking US .. US .. US... why do you not reach out to *us*, the M'ricans turned to us to design and engineer their vehicles which you have in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We could have helped design it with your local vehicles too but that too was not followed. Where is the fault?

When Rhodesians farmers could build their versions using VW bug ... come on my friend.. have some gray matter between your head.

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## Aamir Hussain

The issue is no kickbacks for locally produced kit.

IMHO and with little engineering & fabrication background (Because of my family business), take a twin cabin (toyota), strip it down to the chassis and the engine. Strengthen the chassis with steel plates hot riveted on to the chassis and put heavier shock absorbers and leaf springs. We used to take old/used NLC Ford D1121 flat bed trucks and converted them to tankers through this method for NLC to use them at Khaskheli to transport Crude Oil.

One can build a lower cost, structure on the strengthened chassis including V shaped hull. Or take a Unimog or a Fiat Iveco Chassis and play around with it to build a highly customized, fit for Pakistan, Vehicle. It can be as sophisticated as the American ones or just armored vans with ports for firing using peoples steel mills produced forged steel as add-on/bolt-on armor.

I would only recommend an enclosed machine gun turret, smoke discharges, and central Tyre inflation system along with a V shaped hull.

If the soldiers using the vehicles have confidence in the protection, they will stand and fight otherwise they bug out of the vehicle at the first chance they get because once stopped, the next would be an RPG round.

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## Falcon26

denel said:


> Please read what i wrote and see that photos!. That is real.
> 
> Mine proof vehicles are our core business; you keep on asking US .. US .. US... why do you not reach out to *us*, the M'ricans turned to us to design and engineer their vehicles which you have in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> We could have helped design it with your local vehicles too but that too was not followed. Where is the fault?
> 
> When Rhodesians farmers could build their versions using VW bug ... come on my friend.. have some gray matter between your head.



Sorry, my friend. You ran against the time tested Pakistani argument of “we have no budget” lol

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## Armchair

The precious industrial capability in HIT - how is the world are they allowed to underutilize it and run it incompetently?

HIT has the capacity, the machinery, to become an exporter of armoured vehicles. Yet look at them. Taking salaries from the nation and flushing it down the drain. Shameless.

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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> The precious industrial capability in HIT - how is the world are they allowed to underutilize it and run it incompetently?
> 
> HIT has the capacity, the machinery, to become an exporter of armoured vehicles. Yet look at them. Taking salaries from the nation and flushing it down the drain. Shameless.


How is it underutilized and why?

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## Readerdefence

Falcon26 said:


> Sorry, my friend. You ran against the time tested Pakistani argument of “we have no budget” lol


Hi or pk argument can be they just relying on American MRAP supplying free of cost from Afghanistan & as you know until unless something somewhere in the interest of someone they 
Won’t be starting their own product 
Ps which is insane 
Thank you


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## Armchair

I say, get as much US equipment leaving AFG as possible. There won't be another chance within the next decade.

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## Tipu7

Armchair said:


> I say, get as much US equipment leaving AFG as possible. There won't be another chance within the next decade.


Army is working on it.

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## Armchair

Tipu7 said:


> Army is working on it.



Thank you. Best news I've heard all day. You made my day!

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## Aamir Hussain

For those who want to know, Pakistan imported various versions of M-113 since the sixties:


Year Equipment Qty. Remarks
1963-64 M113 109 USA
1973-75 M113A1 300 USA
1979-80 M113A1 230 USA
1984-85 M901 ITV Tank Destroyer 24 USA
1986-87 M113A2 110 USA
1989-99 M113A2 775 Assembled from kits
2000-14 M113A3 1,047 USA
2011-15 M113A2 550 USA
2014-15 M113A2 500 USA
2013-14 M113 (VCC-1 & VCC-2 Versions) 622 Italy
2015 M113 73 Jordan
Total 4,340

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> For those who want to know, Pakistan imported various versions of M-113 since the sixties:
> 
> 
> Year Equipment Qty. Remarks
> 1963-64 M113 109 USA
> 1973-75 M113A1 300 USA
> 1979-80 M113A1 230 USA
> 1984-85 M901 ITV Tank Destroyer 24 USA
> 1986-87 M113A2 110 USA
> 1989-99 M113A2 775 Assembled from kits
> 2000-14 M113A3 1,047 USA
> 2011-15 M113A2 550 USA
> 2014-15 M113A2 500 USA
> 2013-14 M113 (VCC-1 & VCC-2 Versions) 622 Italy
> 2015 M113 73 Jordan
> Total 4,340


Are the old ones going to retire?


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## Aamir Hussain

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Are the old ones going to retire?


I am guessing here that the ones received after 1984 are still in use.

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## PanzerKiel

Aamir Hussain said:


> I am guessing here that the ones received after 1984 are still in use.



A1 models are still in use as well.

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## Blacklight

Armchair said:


> The precious industrial capability in HIT - how is the world are they allowed to underutilize it and run it incompetently?
> 
> HIT has the capacity, the machinery, to become an exporter of armoured vehicles. Yet look at them. Taking salaries from the nation and flushing it down the drain. Shameless.









Not that you are wrong, but you just rubbed this whole salt mountain on us

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## Armchair

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 644111
> 
> 
> Not that you are wrong, but you just rubbed this whole salt mountain on us



Wasn't my intention. People who care will sometimes be upset with you. People who don't care will always have a smile and a goodbye ready. : )

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## Bossman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Are the old ones going to retire?


They don’t retire they get rebuilt. USA has not built new M1s since 1993. Nothing happens to the shell of an armored vehicle. Engine, gearbox and other moving parts are replaced or rebuilt. This is the reasons we keep getting EDA M113s in bad shape because we can rebuilt them to almost new condition at fraction of the cost compared to new ones. HIT has been very busy doing this over the last few years. This is why a number of infantry divisions are converting to Mechanised.

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## Blacklight

Armchair said:


> Wasn't my intention. People who care will sometimes be upset with you. People who don't care will always have a smile and a goodbye ready. : )


I do understand that your intentions were well meaning, but this is actually a point of serious introspect. HIT's true potential is not being used. We need to seriously work on it.

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## HRK

Blacklight said:


> I do understand that your intentions were well meaning, but this is actually a point of serious introspect. HIT's true potential is not being used. We need to seriously work on it.


it was related to law under which HIT was formed which now amended recently .... so positive change would be visible at least after 4-5 years

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## Blacklight

HRK said:


> it was related to law under which HIT was formed which now amended recently .... so positive change would be visible at least after 4-5 years


Thank You for this wonderful update!

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## Reichmarshal

HIT has been retooled and brought up to modern standard.
The are currently building AK1 and working on AK2.
They are doing a major over haul of t 80ud. 
Rebuilding m113.
This in addition of countless other projects on going in HIT.
So when u say they are not working to their full potentional guess they have failed in produce a flying tank.

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## HRK

Blacklight said:


> Thank You for this wonderful update!


following amendments which were adopted [click here]

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## Tipu7

Reichmarshal said:


> HIT has been retooled and brought up to modern standard.
> The are currently building AK1 and working on AK2.
> They are doing a major over haul of t 80ud.
> Rebuilding m113.
> This in addition of countless other projects on going in HIT.
> So when u say they are not working to their full potentional guess they have failed in produce a flying tank.


Overhauling T85 IIAP tanks too which will complete by 2021.



Blacklight said:


> Thank You for this wonderful update!


Are you aware of Pakistan plans for wheeled APC? We showed interest in atleast four types but then everything went silent. Don't know the plans have been delayed or scrapped entirely.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I've been hearing that since Musharraf days bro. Far smaller nations with smaller budgets are making better land vehicles. Serbia. Case in hand.


Reichmarshal said:


> The are currently building AK1 and working on AK2.
> They are doing a major over haul of t 80ud.
> Rebuilding m113.

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## Yasser76

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I've been hearing that since Musharraf days bro. Far smaller nations with smaller budgets are making better land vehicles. Serbia. Case in hand.



It's making quality kit that we can then purchase in qunatity. Serbia and Croatia will never buy more then say 100 tanks/APCs, we will need 500 upwards. POF makes a gold plated MP5, does not mean Pak Army can afford it.....

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## TsAr

HRK said:


> following amendments which were adopted [click here]


Thanx for sharing

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## Ahmet Pasha

This???







Yasser76 said:


> quality kit



Or this??





So far they haven't really made anything of their own.

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## Armchair

HRK said:


> it was related to law under which HIT was formed which now amended recently .... so positive change would be visible at least after 4-5 years



Just read the amendments and they will do nothing to change the fundamental cause of failure - management of HIT. This is another joke and will give them an excuse to fail for the next decade saying "look we have an amendment, we will now succeed, all we need is time".

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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> Just read the amendments and they will do nothing to change the fundamental cause of failure - management of HIT. This is another joke and will give them an excuse to fail for the next decade saying "look we have an amendment, we will now succeed, all we need is time".



HIT’s capacity utilization is directly related to orders placed by the Army. No orders no work. So please don’t be so quick to judge the organization without understanding how it works. Your opinion is partly based on public information released in MODP year book. I can assure you there is more to that than what you read. As of now, if anything HIT has a capacity issue because of multiple ongoing projects some of which have been highlighted on this thread.

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## nomi007

don't focus on audio.
Pak needs such system in Baluchistan.

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## OgaBoga

Beast...

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## Aryeih Leib

New acquisition ?.

@Imran Khan @Super Falcon


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## Imran Khan

Aryeih Leib said:


> New acquisition ?.
> 
> @Imran Khan @Super Falcon


wz551 made in PRC


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## Aryeih Leib

Imran Khan said:


> wz551 made in PRC


Pakistan army brought it ?


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## Imran Khan

Aryeih Leib said:


> Pakistan army brought it ?


there are old conflicting news that PA have 40 of them

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## Sulman Badshah

Aryeih Leib said:


> New acquisition ?.
> 
> @Imran Khan @Super Falcon



Not Pakistan armed forces vehicle 
Chinese Armed forces vehicle WZ 551
Pic is from a competition in China Last year

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## Sunny4pak

*APCs Inventory of Pakistan 2020 |Armoured Solution to Avoid Casualties of FC*

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## Metal 0-1

Sunny4pak said:


> *APCs Inventory of Pakistan 2020 |Armoured Solution to Avoid Casualties of FC*


Pretty good video.

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## Sunny4pak

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pretty good video.


Thanks Sir, I am glad you liked it.

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## python-000

Pakistan can replace its old APC with this from Turkey...


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## Cuirassier

the IA's BMPs would sure give their armoured assaults an extra punch, when compared to our M113s which won't be intimately involved in direct-fire. sure a well-placed RPG shot could wreck the BMP, but their firepower package is enviable. could be slightly off-set if our Mech Inf Bns keep some organic elements of M113s equipped with TOW/BSWS apart from reliance on LAT/HATs.

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## Dazzler

M113 goes stealth

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## farooqbhai007

Dazzler said:


> M113 goes stealth
> 
> View attachment 684882



Any pic of this M113 through a normal lens

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## PanzerKiel

Cuirassier said:


> could be slightly off-set if our Mech Inf Bns keep some organic elements of M113s equipped with TOW/BSWS apart from reliance on LAT/HATs.



Already being practiced. One fifth of APCs of each MIB are tank killers.

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## Cuirassier

PanzerKiel said:


> Already being practiced. One fifth of APCs of each MIB are tank killers.


12 that is? Guten Guten!

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## Metal 0-1

Dazzler said:


> M113 goes stealth
> 
> View attachment 684882


Deja Vu

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Some Streit group is also providing light armoured vehicles to the mil.

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## farooqbhai007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Some Streit group is also providing light armoured vehicles to the mil.



Any source or pic on type or number of vehicles.
STREIT had a factory in Karachi but they left couple of years ago, after which the previously STREIT in pak was renamed as Armoured Vehicles Pakistan and they offer the same products as STREIT , including the LC 79 based APC called as " Cheetah " that was supposed to be a new design and to be launched at STREIT Pakistan.
Then and now u can see alot of STREIT armoured cars in Isb and other areas , Them LC 200s with STREIT written behind them.
STREIT also probably shut down its factory in India and couple of other places, but that doesnt mean they arent doing well, they are doing extremely good providing stuff in yemen etc .

And also SSU Sindh does use STREIT Cougar APC (Not to be confused with the Cougar APC that Armoured Vehicles Pakistan offers as thats just a renamed STREIT Python APC ).






Links for Armoured Vehicles Pak , STREUT Cougar & Python




__





ARMORED VEHICLES PAKISTAN


The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities in Pakistan. Call or fill out a form for a fast quote.




armored.com.pk









Python-LAMV – STREIT Group


The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities across the globe. More than 24 years of experience. More than 1500 vehicles in stock at any given time. Variety of more than 120 vehicle models.Which includes Military Armored Vehicles,Commercial Vehicles Like...




www.armored-cars.com









Cougar -LAMV – STREIT Group


The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities across the globe. More than 24 years of experience. More than 1500 vehicles in stock at any given time. Variety of more than 120 vehicle models.Which includes Military Armored Vehicles,Commercial Vehicles Like...




www.armored-cars.com







.

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## Cookie Monster

PanzerKiel said:


> Already being practiced. One fifth of APCs of each MIB are tank killers.


Any potential plan under consideration to upgrade the existing M113 fleet to the Viper standard(or something similar) that was recently shown by HIT?

I assume the current focus is on more offensive stuff like tanks, attack helis, artillery, etc...but in the long term...
...uparmoring and upgrading the hundreds of M113s in house...including a net centric capability(so that they can better serve in their respective role) could make a significant difference on the battlefield.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

farooqbhai007 said:


> Any source or pic on type or number of vehicles.
> STREIT had a factory in Karachi but they left couple of years ago, after which the previously STREIT in pak was renamed as Armoured Vehicles Pakistan and they offer the same products as STREIT , including the LC 79 based APC called as " Cheetah " that was supposed to be a new design and to be launched at STREIT Pakistan.
> Then and now u can see alot of STREIT armoured cars in Isb and other areas , Them LC 200s with STREIT written behind them.
> STREIT also probably shut down its factory in India and couple of other places, but that doesnt mean they arent doing well, they are doing extremely good providing stuff in yemen etc .
> 
> And also SSU Sindh does use STREIT Cougar APC (Not to be confused with the Cougar APC that Armoured Vehicles Pakistan offers as thats just a renamed STREIT Python APC ).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Links for Armoured Vehicles Pak , STREUT Cougar & Python
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ARMORED VEHICLES PAKISTAN
> 
> 
> The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities in Pakistan. Call or fill out a form for a fast quote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> armored.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Python-LAMV – STREIT Group
> 
> 
> The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities across the globe. More than 24 years of experience. More than 1500 vehicles in stock at any given time. Variety of more than 120 vehicle models.Which includes Military Armored Vehicles,Commercial Vehicles Like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armored-cars.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cougar -LAMV – STREIT Group
> 
> 
> The world's largest manufacturer of armored vehicles, with production facilities across the globe. More than 24 years of experience. More than 1500 vehicles in stock at any given time. Variety of more than 120 vehicle models.Which includes Military Armored Vehicles,Commercial Vehicles Like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armored-cars.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No I didnt.. I was driving home and this guy was in front .. I think LCB unit has these vehicles. (I live near one).
And it wasnt the one above. It was rather bulky and looked more like Spartan ASV.

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## farooqbhai007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No I didnt.. I was driving home and this guy was in front .. I think LCB unit has these vehicles. (I live near one).
> And it wasnt the one above. It was rather bulky and looked more like Spartan ASV.



Hmm,
SSG (N) uses Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group, while SSG (A) used INKAS HUDSON for a counter terror operation in Peshawar.



Also Bangladesh has recently bought Spartan APC from Kraz Ukraine since both Kraz and STREIT make it as a Joint venture.
It's part of a larger arms purchase by Bangladesh from Ukraine which includes a large number of Ukrainian ATGMs as well.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325405293581201409

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## DESERT FIGHTER

farooqbhai007 said:


> Hmm,
> SSG (N) uses Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group, while SSG (A) used INKAS HUDSON for a counter terror operation in Peshawar.
> 
> 
> 
> Also Bangladesh has recently bought Spartan APC from Kraz Ukraine since both Kraz and STREIT make it as a Joint venture.
> It's part of a larger arms purchase by Bangladesh from Ukraine which includes a large number of Ukrainian ATGMs as well.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325405293581201409


Inkas are for police not SSG.


farooqbhai007 said:


> Hmm,
> SSG (N) uses Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group, while SSG (A) used INKAS HUDSON for a counter terror operation in Peshawar.
> 
> 
> 
> Also Bangladesh has recently bought Spartan APC from Kraz Ukraine since both Kraz and STREIT make it as a Joint venture.
> It's part of a larger arms purchase by Bangladesh from Ukraine which includes a large number of Ukrainian ATGMs as well.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325405293581201409











Pakistan LEA's armoured vehicles identification


Law Enforcement Agencies Armoured Vehicles So since the previous thread by me lost my interest so decided to make a new thread covering all the armored vehicles used by Pak LEA's. Includes only those vehicles in service and only pictures of the vehicles in Pakistan. Mohafiz (Early 1st Gen)...



defence.pk

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## farooqbhai007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Inkas are for police not SSG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan LEA's armoured vehicles identification
> 
> 
> Law Enforcement Agencies Armoured Vehicles So since the previous thread by me lost my interest so decided to make a new thread covering all the armored vehicles used by Pak LEA's. Includes only those vehicles in service and only pictures of the vehicles in Pakistan. Mohafiz (Early 1st Gen)...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



Yea , I wrote that thread on vehicle identification .
But as u see here , SSG conducted this anti terror operation in Hayatabad and the vehicle used is Hudson.











In first and second pics the Vehicle can be seen.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Every country who knows whats up is looking to replace M113s with wheeled and tracked afvs/ifvs with RCWSs, SAMs, ATGMs, other weapon suites. Battle taxi concept is fast becoming obsolete. 

USMC and British Army is presently pondering the idea of scrapping or drastically reducing tank fleets in favor of amphibious assault vehicles and afv's as the main component of an armoured unit. 

Turkey has taken regular M113s and turned them into Tulpars. 

Whereas, Uncles in HIT are still busy celebrating their baby Dragoon. Wah bai wah.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yea , I wrote that thread on vehicle identification .
> But as u see here , SSG conducted this anti terror operation in Hayatabad and the vehicle used is Hudson.
> View attachment 686915
> 
> View attachment 686916
> View attachment 686917
> 
> In first and second pics the Vehicle can be seen.


Take a closer look and you will see KPK police. I believe these were donated to them.


farooqbhai007 said:


> Yea , I wrote that thread on vehicle identification .
> But as u see here , SSG conducted this anti terror operation in Hayatabad and the vehicle used is Hudson.
> View attachment 686915
> 
> View attachment 686916
> View attachment 686917
> 
> In first and second pics the Vehicle can be seen.



















KPK Police Receives 24 APC's from U.S Beauru of Intl. Narcotics & Law Enforcement


Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) Inspector General of Police Nasir Khan Durrani highlights importance of the 24 armored personnel carriers (APCs) provided by U.S. Department of State: Bureau of Intl Narcotics & Law Enforcement (INL), which are assisting the KP police in fighting terrorism and militants...




www.pakwheels.com

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## farooqbhai007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Take a closer look and you will see KPK police. I believe these were donated to them.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 687473
> View attachment 687474
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KPK Police Receives 24 APC's from U.S Beauru of Intl. Narcotics & Law Enforcement
> 
> 
> Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) Inspector General of Police Nasir Khan Durrani highlights importance of the 24 armored personnel carriers (APCs) provided by U.S. Department of State: Bureau of Intl Narcotics & Law Enforcement (INL), which are assisting the KP police in fighting terrorism and militants...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pakwheels.com


Hmm I see, I know they are operated by KPK Police, but i thought that the SSG had possibly borrowed them for a op. 
Anyways any other armoured vehicle in service that you know of?


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## Metal 0-1

farooqbhai007 said:


> Hmm I see, I know they are operated by KPK Police, but i thought that the SSG had possibly borrowed them for a op.
> Anyways any other armoured vehicle in service that you know of?


They don't use these vehicles plus they didn't borrowed vehicles for Op. 

They have SUVs, Pickups and M113s at their disposal.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Metal 0-1 said:


> They don't use these vehicles plus they didn't borrowed vehicles for Op.
> 
> They have SUVs, Pickups and M113s at their disposal.


Instead of borrow I think he means commandeer, maybe?!


Metal 0-1 said:


> They don't use these vehicles plus they didn't borrowed vehicles for Op.
> 
> They have SUVs, Pickups and M113s at their disposal.


Dude barebone M113 is becoming obsolete very fast.


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## Aryeih Leib

__





Otokar Akrep - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Pakistan uses akrep ? @Metal 0-1


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## farooqbhai007

Aryeih Leib said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Otokar Akrep - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan uses akrep ? @Metal 0-1


limited numbers within Police , being phased out

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## Metal 0-1

Aryeih Leib said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Otokar Akrep - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan uses akrep ? @Metal 0-1





farooqbhai007 said:


> limited numbers within Police , being phased out


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## Aryeih Leib

What are they being replaced with ?


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## Metal 0-1

Aryeih Leib said:


> What are they being replaced with ?


Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group 
INKAS HUDSON

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## Aryeih Leib

Metal 0-1 said:


> Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group
> INKAS HUDSON


Thank you for the your time .I thought interceptor was a indigenous design from pakistan . Disappointed

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## Metal 0-1

Aryeih Leib said:


> Thank you for the your time .I thought interceptor was a indigenous design from pakistan . Disappointed


Nah. Just an old design on Toyota Chassis.

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## farooqbhai007

Metal 0-1 said:


> Interceptor Armoured vehicles (Produced as Mohafiz IV by HIT) by Cavalier group
> INKAS HUDSON


Not necessarily , each province has different policy to buy vehicles. Most of these Akreps are in Punjab some in Sindh with both police and Rangers , so depends on what they acquire to replace it. In peshawar there are replaced by INKAS Hudsons & ARMCO LC APC's , while in general Interceptor vehicles will replace all of them throughout the country. However so far havent seen any Interceptor's in Police livery.
Sindh Police on the other hand seems to buying Indigenous armoured vehicles from Pak Armoring as well as Mohafiz II APCs from Pak armoring as well , since they license produce those as well.










Aryeih Leib said:


> Thank you for the your time .I thought interceptor was a indigenous design from pakistan . Disappointed


Cavalier group is pakistani so it is a indigenous design.


By the way Rwp Police has gotten new Hilux Police cars which are quite good , white livery looks cool will post if i find a photo
500 new cars for standard police , 24 for Elite force and 27 for NH&MP ,
If you look closely in the news site pic BELOW you can see the while livery Hliux slightly which i am talking about








CM Buzdar hands over 571 new vehicles to Punjab Police


LAHORE: Punjab Chief Minister Usman Buzdar has stressed that Punjab police “will have to deliver in accordance with the aspirations of the people”.The chief minister was addressing a ceremony




www.pakistantoday.com.pk

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Not necessarily , each province has different policy to buy vehicles. Most of these Akreps are in Punjab some in Sindh with both police and Rangers , so depends on what they acquire to replace it. In peshawar there are replaced by INKAS Hudsons & ARMCO LC APC's , while in general Interceptor vehicles will replace all of them throughout the country. However so far havent seen any Interceptor's in Police livery.
> Sindh Police on the other hand seems to buying Indigenous armoured vehicles from Pak Armoring as well as Mohafiz II APCs from Pak armoring as well , since they license produce those as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cavalier group is pakistani so it is a indigenous design.
> 
> 
> By the way Rwp Police has gotten new Hilux Police cars which are quite good , white livery looks cool will post if i find a photo
> 500 new cars for standard police , 24 for Elite force and 27 for NH&MP ,
> If you look closely in the news site pic BELOW you can see the while livery Hliux slightly which i am talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CM Buzdar hands over 571 new vehicles to Punjab Police
> 
> 
> LAHORE: Punjab Chief Minister Usman Buzdar has stressed that Punjab police “will have to deliver in accordance with the aspirations of the people”.The chief minister was addressing a ceremony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pakistantoday.com.pk


For love of GOD when would Police get rid of that Dala and instead of go for proper patrolling cars like Corolla or civic or prius and other similar sedans and suvs and other vehicles.


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## Aryeih Leib

Metal 0-1 said:


> Nah. Just an old design on Toyota Chassis.


What happened to other product by


farooqbhai007 said:


> Not necessarily , each province has different policy to buy vehicles. Most of these Akreps are in Punjab some in Sindh with both police and Rangers , so depends on what they acquire to replace it. In peshawar there are replaced by INKAS Hudsons & ARMCO LC APC's , while in general Interceptor vehicles will replace all of them throughout the country. However so far havent seen any Interceptor's in Police livery.
> Sindh Police on the other hand seems to buying Indigenous armoured vehicles from Pak Armoring as well as Mohafiz II APCs from Pak armoring as well , since they license produce those as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cavalier group is pakistani so it is a indigenous design.
> 
> 
> By the way Rwp Police has gotten new Hilux Police cars which are quite good , white livery looks cool will post if i find a photo
> 500 new cars for standard police , 24 for Elite force and 27 for NH&MP ,
> If you look closely in the news site pic BELOW you can see the while livery Hliux slightly which i am talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CM Buzdar hands over 571 new vehicles to Punjab Police
> 
> 
> LAHORE: Punjab Chief Minister Usman Buzdar has stressed that Punjab police “will have to deliver in accordance with the aspirations of the people”.The chief minister was addressing a ceremony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pakistantoday.com.pk


 
Cavalier has copied Hudson!!!


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## farooqbhai007

Funnythi


Aryeih Leib said:


> What happened to other product by
> 
> 
> Cavalier has copied Hudson!!!


?
Cavalier groups interceptor is 5 door and comes in two versions , armoured and uparmoured , while Inkas Hudson is 3 door APC ,both are completely different looking .


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## Aryeih Leib

Sir the "engine " and chasis isn't designed and developed in pakistan ...... 


farooqbhai007 said:


> Funnythi
> 
> ?
> Cavalier groups interceptor is 5 door and comes in two versions , armoured and uparmoured , while Inkas Hudson is 3 door APC ,both are completely different looking .


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## farooqbhai007

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir the "engine " and chasis isn't designed and developed in pakistan ......


SandCat uses Ford chassis so Israeli sand cat isnt a indigenous design , ever heard that.
Ford and toyota chassis are used by hundreds of companies as base for armoured vehicles , using a foreign chassis doesnt mean that the final product isnt indigenous .

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## Zarvan




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## Neurath

Zarvan said:


>


It is a capable APC but don't we already have 300 Dragoon 2s.

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## farooqbhai007

*source : 
Armada International & Asian Military Review ( DEC/2015 - JAN/2016 )

So apparently german Dingo 2s were evaluated in 2010. Any Idea what happened to this tender , and if there are any pics from the trials.*
@PanzerKiel @Signalian

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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


>


Wow. Bravo!!!
What creativity these brigadiers have displayed. Ofcourse go check out a soviet relic. From your haydays of U.N tours of duty.

Bravo. 

Why we sinking billions into a defunct organisation?? That fails again and again to produce results.


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## Ahmet Pasha

I think abandanoning/botching/cocking up Yasoob truck was a mistake.

In Vietnam and WW2 what came to be was the novel concept of "Gun Trucks".

Which in my opinion later involved into MRAPS.

Now I suggest we should look jnto this again and develop an upgrade kit and an MRAP design for Pakistan military trucks to be able to turned into MRAP style APCs or what in Vietnam era were called Gun Trucks.

It can do everything a normal truck does i.e logistics missions, troop transport etc everything with the added protection of an APC/MRAP. Would do wonders in Balochistan and Western border for sure.

Reposting images for reference.

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## Scorpiooo

Pakistan heavily industry badly failed to provide any porper output, look at Al Khalid out come and APC vehicles designed presented in ideas other exbition ... but when it come for output to produce actual its totally failed

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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think abandanoning/botching/cocking up Yasoob truck was a mistake.
> 
> In Vietnam and WW2 what came to be was the novel concept of "Gun Trucks".
> 
> Which in my opinion later involved into MRAPS.
> 
> Now I suggest we should look jnto this again and develop an upgrade kit and an MRAP design for Pakistan military trucks to be able to turned into MRAP style APCs or what in Vietnam era were called Gun Trucks.
> 
> It can do everything a normal truck does i.e logistics missions, troop transport etc everything with the added protection of an APC/MRAP. Would do wonders in Balochistan and Western border for sure.
> 
> Reposting images for reference.
> View attachment 734601
> View attachment 734602
> 
> View attachment 734599
> View attachment 734600


i need me one of these next time i come across a molana-made barricade

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## Scorpiooo

Count me in too , as potential customer


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## Scorpiooo

Count me in too , as potential customer


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## Scorpiooo

American leaving Afghanistan will give golden chance to Pakistan to have maximum numbers of MaxPro other APC Vehicles by sensibly dealing this exit

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## PanzerKiel

Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 755459
> 
> Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.


Any other option under evaluation or even in consideration ....???

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## PanzerKiel

HRK said:


> Any other option under evaluation or even in consideration ....???


Yes there are, BTR 4E is at the top... As of now....

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 755459
> 
> Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.


Can these work in the mountaineous regions of Balochistan?And can they resist mines?

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 755459
> 
> Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.


Only with FC? Also will it have grenade launcher or atgms?
Btw many people who jump onto the general officers and their pays for every incident would be silenced. They often forget that there is some evaluation procedure and for an economy of our scale it is often more vigorous because knee jerk procurements lead to long term problems as one can see the case of IAF.

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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> Can these work in the mountaineous regions of Balochistan?And can they resist mines?


The vehicle, in its standard form, can provide protection against small arms fire and mine blasts. It can, however, be enhanced to provide immunity against 30mm gun rounds. The vehicle is also outfitted with automatic fire suppression and NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) protection systems.

The BTR-4E hull is protected against the firing of small arms 7.62mm AP (Armour Piercing) caliber and artillery shell splinters, Level 2 STANAG 4569. The BTR-4E is also equipped with an anti-mine "skirt" which improves protection against mine blast and IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices). To increase protection of the vehicle, the turret and the sides can be fitted with slat armour to provide a higher level of protection against attack by rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons fitted with a HEAT warhead. There is also an add-on armour kit available that can provide all-around protection against weapons of 30mm caliber.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Only with FC?


It's deployment will be area specific, not force specific.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> It's deployment will be area specific, not force specific.


That means that it'll have 40mm grenade launchers instead of atgms.

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## Moon

PanzerKiel said:


> The vehicle, in its standard form, can provide protection against small arms fire and mine blasts. It can, however, be enhanced to provide immunity against 30mm gun rounds. The vehicle is also outfitted with automatic fire suppression and NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) protection systems.
> 
> The BTR-4E hull is protected against the firing of small arms 7.62mm AP (Armour Piercing) caliber and artillery shell splinters, Level 2 STANAG 4569. The BTR-4E is also equipped with an anti-mine "skirt" which improves protection against mine blast and IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices). To increase protection of the vehicle, the turret and the sides can be fitted with slat armour to provide a higher level of protection against attack by rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons fitted with a HEAT warhead. There is also an add-on armour kit available that can provide all-around protection against weapons of 30mm caliber.
> 
> It's deployment will be area specific, not force specific.


I've seen 12.7mm rifles in terrorists' hands.... 
Also the up-armoured version carries one less soldier and costs more to buy and operate. But it's light-years better than those Hilux death traps

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> I've seen 12.7mm rifles in terrorists' hands....
> Also the up-armoured version carries one less soldier and costs more to buy and operate. But it's light-years better than those Hilux death traps


Really with which group?And how in propaganda or what?

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> Yes there are, BTR 4E is at the top... As of now....


BTw might be off-topic but one private Pakistani company with the collaboration of HIT exhibited HAMZA 6x6 and 8x8 MRAP few years back ... did we ever conduct their testing and evaluation or not .... ??

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Really with which group?And how in propaganda or what?


Propaganda plus captured weapons, dunno which one it was, BRAS I think.

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## PanzerKiel

HRK said:


> BTw might be off-topic but one private Pakistani company with the collaboration of HIT exhibited HAMZA 6x6 and 8x8 MRAP few years back ... did we ever conduct their testing and evaluation or not .... ??


As usual.. Pakistani do numbri was visible.... Low quality materials, less protection than claimed....

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Propaganda plus captured weapons, dunno which one it was, BRAS I think.


Which gun was it?

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Which gun was it?


Don't know, but it was much bigger than a Dragunov. 
Plus that really doesn't matter when they have RPGs as well.

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Don't know, but it was much bigger than a Dragunov.
> Plus that really doesn't matter when they have RPGs as well.


Can you send the pic?

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> As usual.. Pakistani do numbri was visible.... Low quality materials, less protection than claimed....

























Sir why we always test APC. Why not go for MRAP like these in pictures. I mean not exactly these but of this shape and category.

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Can you send the pic?


It's a QJZ-89 HMG







There are other weapons as well, including a DShK and what not.
Also loads of recoilless rifles and RPGs. The way they're getting their hands on equipments like NVGs and thermal optics, I'm afraid they might get MANPADS as well. Hence we need faster moving CAS platforms, hence why I advocate for Super Tucanos over Mi-35s...

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## Zarvan

Mr.Meap said:


> Don't know, but it was much bigger than a Dragunov.
> Plus that really doesn't matter when they have RPGs as well.


The real issue is IED plus suicide bombers and also RPG and Anti Air Craft Machine guns which are used in attacks. For those we need level 4 protection MRAP.


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 755470
> 
> View attachment 755471
> 
> View attachment 755473
> 
> View attachment 755474
> 
> View attachment 755475
> 
> 
> Sir why we always test APC. Why not go for MRAP like these in pictures. I mean not exactly these but of this shape and category.


Have to justify the purchase for conventional ops too, PA doesn’t have unlimited money sadly, otherwise turkish and South African MRAPs are easy options, the latter of which we already operate. 
Anything is better than a hilux so we should be happy with any such purchase.

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## Sifar zero

Zarvan said:


> The real issue is IED plus suicide bombers and also RPG and Anti Air Craft Machine guns which are used in attacks. For those we need level 4 protection MRAP.


Use of suicide bombers by Baloch militant groups is very rare.The only case I know of is the attack on a bus carrying Chinese engineers.Aslam Achu's son was the bomber.
These guys once attacked a P3C orion with a AA gun.

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Use of suicide bombers by Baloch militant groups is very rare.The only case I know of is the attack on a bus carrying Chinese engineers.Aslam Achu's son was the bomber.
> These guys once attacked a P3C orion with a AA gun.


When was the Orion attacked? I didn't hear of any such incident, was it damaged? This is scary if true.


Zarvan said:


> The real issue is IED plus suicide bombers and also RPG and Anti Air Craft Machine guns which are used in attacks. For those we need level 4 protection MRAP.


True, furthermore the war we're engaged in isn't static, tactics are constantly evolving.
I wish we would've made general purpose frames, on which we could build our MRAPs, trucks etc... and have a diverse fleet of vehicles all sharing similar underpinnings. Kinda like what South Africa did with the Unimog

Discontinuing Yasoob was a huge mistake

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## Zarvan

Sifar zero said:


> Use of suicide bombers by Baloch militant groups is very rare.The only case I know of is the attack on a bus carrying Chinese engineers.Aslam Achu's son was the bomber.
> These guys once attacked a P3C orion with a AA gun.


IED are very common. Yes suicide bombing by BLA is rare but TTP is also active in Baluchistan.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Have to justify the purchase for conventional ops too, PA doesn’t have unlimited money sadly, otherwise turkish and South African MRAPs are easy options, the latter of which we already operate.
> Anything is better than a hilux so we should be happy with any such purchase.


I seriously doubt justifying a vehicle would be that big of deal.


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## Sayfullah

PanzerKiel said:


> Yes there are, BTR 4E is at the top... As of now....



If Pakistan goes for it can it get ToT and produce in HIT?


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## Tipu7

PanzerKiel said:


> The vehicle, in its standard form, can provide protection against small arms fire and mine blasts. It can, however, be enhanced to provide immunity against 30mm gun rounds. The vehicle is also outfitted with automatic fire suppression and NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) protection systems.
> 
> The BTR-4E hull is protected against the firing of small arms 7.62mm AP (Armour Piercing) caliber and artillery shell splinters, Level 2 STANAG 4569. The BTR-4E is also equipped with an anti-mine "skirt" which improves protection against mine blast and IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices). To increase protection of the vehicle, the turret and the sides can be fitted with slat armour to provide a higher level of protection against attack by rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons fitted with a HEAT warhead. There is also an add-on armour kit available that can provide all-around protection against weapons of 30mm caliber.
> 
> It's deployment will be area specific, not force specific.


Considering it's COIN specific acquisition, it will be limited in numbers and will deploy in hot zones. 
By the way, The surplus stock of American MRAPs could have full filled this role at much cheaper and faster rate.

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> When was the Orion attacked? I didn't hear of any such incident, was it damaged? This is scary if true.
> 
> True, furthermore the war we're engaged in isn't static, tactics are constantly evolving.
> I wish we would've made general purpose frames, on which we could build our MRAPs, trucks etc... and have a diverse fleet of vehicles all sharing similar underpinnings. Kinda like what South Africa did with the Unimog
> 
> Discontinuing Yasoob was a huge mistake


Well it was in a propaganda video by BRA.They fired at a Orion while it was flying overhead.No damage to the Orion though.

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Well it was in a propaganda video by BRA.They fired at a Orion while it was flying overhead.No damage to the Orion though.


Using an AA gun (25mm)? Or a HMG?


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## Sayfullah

Tipu7 said:


> Considering it's COIN specific acquisition, it will be limited in numbers and will deploy in hot zones.
> By the way, The surplus stock of American MRAPs could have full filled this role at much cheaper and faster rate.



Doesn’t HIT produce Dragon APC? 
Wouldn’t the cheapest option be producing more Dragon APC in HIT since the APC needed is for COIN and Dragon APC can perform well against terrorists?

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## Moon

Whatever we buy, I hope it comes with proper radio and comms equipment, one that can be used to send out distress signals to ask for backup.


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Using an AA gun (25mm)? Or a HMG?


That I don't know.


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> That I don't know.


Was the gun held on a stand? Or was the guy firing it sitting on the gun he was firing? Was the Length of the gun double or triple the length of an outstretched hand?


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Was the gun held on a stand? Or was the guy firing it sitting on the gun he was firing? Was the Length of the gun double or triple the length of an outstretched hand?


No they only recorded the plane and bullets not the gun.Should I send you the video?

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> No they only recorded the plane and bullets not the gun.Should I send you the video?


Sure, post in the Sindh and Balochistan terrorist watch thread.
Thanks in advance


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Sure, post in the Sindh and Balochistan terrorist watch thread.
> Thanks in advance


If i get banned?


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> If i get banned?


Let me ask some mods first

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Considering it's COIN specific acquisition, it will be limited in numbers and will deploy in hot zones.
> By the way, The surplus stock of American MRAPs could have full filled this role at much cheaper and faster rate.


My issue is shape of this vehicle. Why we don't go for vehicles of these shapes 


















The one we are testing is basically wheeled APC not an MRAP. Plus the shape it has I think it would have slightly more difficulty to move in those areas.

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## Tipu7

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Doesn’t HIT produce Dragon APC?
> Wouldn’t the cheapest option be producing more Dragon APC in HIT since the APC needed is for COIN and Dragon APC can perform well against terrorists?


Dragoon project is a disaster. A poor decision which was primarily meant to fill up pockets in military and ministry of interior.


Zarvan said:


> My issue is shape of this vehicle. Why we don't go for vehicles of these shapes
> View attachment 755557
> 
> View attachment 755559
> 
> View attachment 755561
> 
> View attachment 755562
> 
> 
> The one we are testing is basically wheeled APC not an MRAP. Plus the shape it has I think it would have slightly more difficulty to move in those areas.


Are you organizing a cat walk for armored vehicles? Since when the 'beauty' became a criteria for armored vehicles? In military, if a vehicle is ugly, but gets the job done with in the economic brackets, then its the right vehicle.


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## Sifar zero

Tipu7 said:


> Dragoon project is a disaster. A poor decision which was primarily meant to fill up pockets in military and ministry of interior.
> 
> Are you organizing a cat walk for armored vehicles? Since when the 'beauty' became a criteria for armored vehicles? In military, if a vehicle is ugly, but gets the job done with in the economic brackets, then its the right vehicle.


How was Dragoon a disaster?

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> How was Dragoon a disaster?


It's not a MRAP, it's basically a M113 on wheels, aka a death trap, can't stop an IED or a mine or anything. There's a reason US didn't deploy them in Afghanistan.


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Dragoon project is a disaster. A poor decision which was primarily meant to fill up pockets in military and ministry of interior.
> 
> Are you organizing a cat walk for armored vehicles? Since when the 'beauty' became a criteria for armored vehicles? In military, if a vehicle is ugly, but gets the job done with in the economic brackets, then its the right vehicle.


Not cat walk. But what I am saying is the BT 4 is not a MRAP but it falls in APC category. There is a reason MRAP are of different shape. It's not about looking beautiful it's about of being certain shape and features to move more easily in KPK and Baluchistan.

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Let me ask some mods first


Where are the Pakistani M117 now?


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Where are the Pakistani M113 now?


Still in service, 2000+ of them


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Still in service, 2000+ of them


I meant M117.


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> I meant M117.


You mean the M1117? In that case zero


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> You mean the M1117? In that case zero


Is Dragoon the same as M117?How many Dragoons do we have and where are they used?


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Is Dragoon the same as M117?How many Dragoons do we have and where are they used?


Dragoon and M1117 share the same underpinnings, hence they looks the same (ie their "ancestor" is the same) But the Dragoon is lighter and less advance than the M1117, it lacks a V-shaped hull (compare the anterior pictures of both and you'll see the M1117 wheels jutting out) it also lacks advance composite armour among other goodies as well. The M1117 is a proper purpose built MRAP, built specifically to take an IED or mine to the face and walk away.

I'm not sure who exactly uses the Dragoon, but I'd bet it's with the ASF guys. (Don't quote me on this one.)
Maybe someone more knowledgeable can tell you.

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## Great Janjua

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 755459
> 
> Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.


When can we expect the evaluation to end hope it wont take 5 years as it always does with our evaluation programm and at the end we end up with buying some chinese product

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## Great Janjua

Pakistan still using the outdated m113 is a shame we need to start considering more modern options turkey has some excellent ones and so does ukraine in both categories tracked and wheeled we need to scrap the idea off battle taxis when modern options can do more whilst being battle taxis

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## farooqbhai007

Moon said:


> You mean the M1117? In that case zero










Great Janjua said:


> Pakistan still using the outdated m113 is a shame we need to start considering more modern options turkey has some excellent ones and so does ukraine in both categories tracked and wheeled we need to scrap the idea off battle taxis when modern options can do more whilst being battle taxis


Its not easy to replace the 4000+ M113s and its derivatives in service. Upgrade package would be nice though , but even the US national guard still uses M113 and replacement for that is coming slow and in limited orders. The only solution would be to partially replace or induct new IFVs.

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## Moon

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 755705
> 
> 
> Its not easy to replace the 4000+ M113s and its derivatives in service. Upgrade package would be nice though , but even the US national guard still uses M113 and replacement for that is coming slow and in limited orders. The only solution would be to partially replace or induct new IFVs.


I'm guessing the number are too less. I looked around and found Peshawar Police having a unit.


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## farooqbhai007

Moon said:


> I'm guessing the number are too less. I looked around and found Peshawar Police having a unit.


not too less , PA rarely releases any pics.
Peshawar Police have a Handful BRDM-2s not M1117 , ( at least 2 )

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## Moon

farooqbhai007 said:


> not too less , PA rarely releases any pics.
> Peshawar Police have a Handful BRDM-2s not M1117 , ( at least 2 )
> View attachment 755735


I was referring to this Reddit post



https://i.redd.it/o4rhbgnjyhw31.png




__
https://www.reddit.com/r/PakistanOurStories/comments/dr2mi7


I've only seen MaxxPros

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> BTw might be off-topic but one private Pakistani company with the collaboration of HIT exhibited HAMZA 6x6 and 8x8 MRAP few years back ... did we ever conduct their testing and evaluation or not .... ??



If you are talking about Cavalier group guys.

Stay away from them.

They defaulted on guarantee liability of a bank last year for a civilian project (done by group company with same sponsors).

They owe hundreds of millions.

Shady guys.

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## Great Janjua

Our establishment is just ripe with corruption these idiots can get the m113 turkish upgrade package which will make our 3000 plus stock even more deadly and turn them into proper ifvs instead of the tin cans we operate all it takes is a rpg to blow one up All thanks to the corrupt HIT

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## Scorpiooo

Great Janjua said:


> Our establishment is just ripe with corruption these idiots can get the m113 turkish upgrade package which will make our 3000 plus stock even more deadly and turn them into proper ifvs instead of the tin cans we operate all it takes is a rpg to blow one up All thanks to the corrupt HIT


Only if they care for our poor soldiers, HiT is a big question mark

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Tipu7 said:


> Dragoon project is a disaster. A poor decision which was primarily meant to fill up pockets in military and ministry of interior.
> 
> Are you organizing a cat walk for armored vehicles? Since when the 'beauty' became a criteria for armored vehicles? In military, if a vehicle is ugly, but gets the job done with in the economic brackets, then its the right vehicle.


Might be referring to the higher ground clearance and ‘V’ shaped hull that have come to define many MRAP designs vs APC designs.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Great Janjua said:


> Our establishment is just ripe with corruption these idiots can get the m113 turkish upgrade package which will make our 3000 plus stock even more deadly and turn them into proper ifvs instead of the tin cans we operate all it takes is a rpg to blow one up All thanks to the corrupt HIT


Two different roles:
1. Battle Taxi: Primary role to transport troops into combat zones

2. IFV: Primary role is to act in support/complement tanks in armored formations along with troop transport.

You are unlikely to see all APC’s replaced with IFV’s given the cost and the fact that the PA may not see any need for huge numbers of IFV’s supporting tanks.

This has nothing to do with corruption or incompetence - it is purely a PA assessment of whether the investment in significant numbers of IFV’s is justifiable, and the advantages significant enough, given the PA’s war fighting doctrine.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Two different roles:
> 1. Battle Taxi: Primary role to transport troops into combat zones
> 
> 2. IFV: Primary role is to act in support/complement tanks in armored formations along with troop transport.
> 
> You are unlikely to see all APC’s replaced with IFV’s given the cost and the fact that the PA may not see any need for huge numbers of IFV’s supporting tanks.
> 
> This has nothing to do with corruption or incompetence - it is purely a PA assessment of whether the investment in significant numbers of IFV’s is justifiable, and the advantages significant enough, given the PA’s war fighting doctrine.


That said, the PA is toying with the idea of IFVs. E.g., the Viper concept, which tried leveraging the production line we have for Talha/M113. The PA hasn't committed to the Viper, but there's likely a CONOPS somewhere and a staff requirement.

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## Scorpiooo

Problem is that no one taking it seriously. Life of our brothers soldiers (which are our actual strength) does not matter in most of the decisions maker.

Remember these soldiers are not single they have families to feed.

When ever we lost a soldiers we are down by one true Pakistani warrior that lost life for his country and there family lost everything

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## Sifar zero

How many BMC Kirpi do we have and when did we buy them?


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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> How many BMC Kirpi do we have and when did we buy them?


Unlikely we bought any, there was talks of an order but it never seems to have gone through. I’ve never seen a Kipri in PA service. Only Maxxpro and casspir MRAPS.
@farooqbhai007 might know better.

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## farooqbhai007

iLION12345_1 said:


> Unlikely we bought any, there was talks of an order but it never seems to have gone through. I’ve never seen a Kipri in PA service. Only Maxxpro and casspir MRAPS.
> @farooqbhai007 might know better.


no Kirpi so far , like iLion said only Maxx Pro variants & Casspirs only in service , with some dedicated EOD buffalo mraps

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Unlikely we bought any, there was talks of an order but it never seems to have gone through. I’ve never seen a Kipri in PA service. Only Maxxpro and casspir MRAPS.
> @farooqbhai007 might know better.


Any have have info regarding actual numbers of 
MaxxPro and Casspir PA have ?


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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> no Kirpi so far , like iLion said only Maxx Pro variants & Casspirs only in service , with some dedicated EOD buffalo mraps


But BMC itself mentioned that it sold some MRAPS to Pakistan.


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## Scorpiooo

Sifar zero said:


> But BMC itself mentioned that it sold some MRAPS to Pakistan.


Can you share the source link ?


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## Sifar zero

Scorpiooo said:


> Can you share the source link ?


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1JPqOFfMX9_2XtdMizCqcq[/URL]


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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> But BMC itself mentioned that it sold some MRAPS to Pakistan.





Scorpiooo said:


> Can you share the source link ?


Yes they said they did, but the deliveries never occurred.

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Any have have info regarding actual numbers of
> MaxxPro and Casspir PA have ?


If SIPRI is to be believed, nearly 360 Maxxpros. Which seems correct if we dig up old American news sources. 
as for casspirs, I’d say fewer than 20.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> If SIPRI is to be believed, nearly 360 Maxxpros. Which seems correct if we dig up old American news sources.
> as for casspirs, I’d say fewer than 20.


This numbers are very bad in reality by looking at our need for protection of our values poor soldiers

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## Great Janjua

First of all the idea of battle taxis is just absurd long gone are the days off battle taxis ifvs can play the same role and much more also even help support the dismounts to launch attacks but most important of all it can play hunter killer role destroy enemy tanks, ifvs, low flying aerial vehicle and much more its just that our generals are living in 1940s just look at the marines they are supposed to be a 3 dimensional force but they are assigned to border patrols and being used as cheap AAD they should be deployed in hot zones throughout the country in various terrains in addition the training infrastructure needs major revamp our marines can play a major role in case of war but for that right mindset is needed right now they are a bunch of jokers


AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Two different roles:
> 1. Battle Taxi: Primary role to transport troops into combat zones
> 
> 2. IFV: Primary role is to act in support/complement tanks in armored formations along with troop transport.
> 
> You are unlikely to see all APC’s replaced with IFV’s given the cost and the fact that the PA may not see any need for huge numbers of IFV’s supporting tanks.
> 
> This has nothing to do with corruption or incompetence - it is purely a PA assessment of whether the investment in significant numbers of IFV’s is justifiable, and the advantages significant enough, given the PA’s war fighting doctrine.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should have adopted these. They were better protected then American Humvees and if I am not wrong South Korea was offering TOT.


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## JPMM

You do have good relations with our Spanish Brothers, choose the URO ST5, its the best, we use it with a more powerfull engine. Its the best in protection level.

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## farooqbhai007

JPMM said:


> You do have good relations with our Spanish Brothers, choose the URO ST5, its the best, we use it with a more powerfull engine. Its the best in protection level.


Uro Vamtac was demonstrated in the ideas expo as well as part of tender but it didnt meet the terms i guess , then in ideas 2018 the kia kltv was demonstrated but that wasnt choosen either , long process ,

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## JPMM

farooqbhai007 said:


> Uro Vamtac was demonstrated in the ideas expo as well as part of tender but it didnt meet the terms i guess , then in ideas 2018 the kia kltv was demonstrated but that wasnt choosen either , long process ,


Its very expensive, we choose him but have to reduce the number ordered. With the modifications we asked it was even more expensive. That must be one of the reasons for no selection.
BUT the result was a very reliavel and strong machine. We whouldnt choose better.
Next we will receive L-ATV becouse its cheaper.
This is what appened in Afganistan to Portuguese Hummer





Staff Sergent Roma Pereira died in this attack

After being uparmoured in Israel, this is the result after ambush in CAR (no casualties)





New Toys





Difference

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## Falcon26

Scorpiooo said:


> Problem is that no one taking it seriously. Life of our brothers soldiers (which are our actual strength) does not matter in most of the decisions maker.
> 
> Remember these soldiers are not single they have families to feed.
> 
> When ever we lost a soldiers we are down by one true Pakistani warrior that lost life for his country and there family lost everything



The PA doesn’t seem to care about the well-being of its troops. They continue to be targeted in IED attacks when properly equipped IFVs are available.


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## farooqbhai007

Falcon26 said:


> The PA doesn’t seem to care about the well-being of its troops. They continue to be targeted in IED attacks when properly equipped IFVs are available.


1. You clearly dont understand the security situation in Balochistan , most attacks are being done on soldiers doing logistics , there was even a attack on a water truck near the city of quetta i mean last month ,
2. Lets say the PA equips all of its units with IFVs and armored vehicles , what would be the next case of action , the BLA would probably improvise and use bigger ied's which then again can blow up mraps as we have seen in Afghanistan , and the bla would also end up getting atgm,s just how ttp got limited numbers of milan's from indian retards ( who happen to have closed the kandahar consulate today  since they are running for there life in Afghanistan now )
3. There is a massive crackdown underway since past few weeks , the peace on loc has given a oppurtunity to get things right and it seems to be happening that way , ( see IK meeting Bugti's and IK saying that they are willing to do peace talks with the bla ) , and as we know doing peace talks is the stanard PA doctorine before it uses a hammer just like before Zarb e azab we offered peace talks .

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## iLION12345_1

Falcon26 said:


> The PA doesn’t seem to care about the well-being of its troops. They continue to be targeted in IED attacks when properly equipped IFVs are available.


Unless you’re willing to pay for the heavily armored IFVs then we won’t really see a change in that. PA was far too slow to adopt MRAPs for IED protection yes, but most of the recent attacks are ambushes on posts. And not even MRAPs and IFVs will save you from anti-armor weapons these guys are getting from their foreign suppliers and facilitators…
In other news PA is testing several modern APC systems to deploy in Baluchistan soon, hopefully one is procured ASAP.

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## Falcon26

iLION12345_1 said:


> Unless you’re willing to pay for the heavily armored IFVs then we won’t really see a change in that. PA was far too slow to adopt MRAPs for IED protection yes, but most of the recent attacks are ambushes on posts. And not even MRAPs and IFVs will save you from anti-armor weapons these guys are getting from their foreign suppliers and facilitators…
> In other news *PA is testing several modern APC systems to deploy in Baluchistan soon, hopefully one is procured ASAP.*



PA has been “testing” for the past two decades and nothing have happened.

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> 1. You clearly dont understand the security situation in Balochistan , most attacks are being done on soldiers doing logistics , there was even a attack on a water truck near the city of quetta i mean last month ,
> 2. Lets say the PA equips all of its units with IFVs and armored vehicles , what would be the next case of action , the BLA would probably improvise and use bigger ied's which then again can blow up mraps as we have seen in Afghanistan , and the bla would also end up getting atgm,s just how ttp got limited numbers of milan's from indian retards ( who happen to have closed the kandahar consulate today  since they are running for there life in Afghanistan now )
> 3. There is a massive crackdown underway since past few weeks , the peace on loc has given a oppurtunity to get things right and it seems to be happening that way , ( see IK meeting Bugti's and IK saying that they are willing to do peace talks with the bla ) , and as we know doing peace talks is the stanard PA doctorine before it uses a hammer just like before Zarb e azab we offered peace talks .
> View attachment 761220


TTP has Milans.WTH. 
And whats in the pic you posted?


iLION12345_1 said:


> Unless you’re willing to pay for the heavily armored IFVs then we won’t really see a change in that. PA was far too slow to adopt MRAPs for IED protection yes, but most of the recent attacks are ambushes on posts. And not even MRAPs and IFVs will save you from anti-armor weapons these guys are getting from their foreign suppliers and facilitators…
> In other news PA is testing several modern APC systems to deploy in Baluchistan soon, hopefully one is procured ASAP.


Well I have not seen ATGMS or other anto armor equipment.
I have only seen anti armour RPG 7 projectiles with them.


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## Falcon26

farooqbhai007 said:


> 1. You clearly dont understand the security situation in Balochistan , most attacks are being done on soldiers doing logistics , there was even a attack on a water truck near the city of quetta i mean last month ,
> 2. Lets say the PA equips all of its units with IFVs and armored vehicles , what would be the next case of action , the BLA would probably improvise and use bigger ied's which then again can blow up mraps as we have seen in Afghanistan , and the bla would also end up getting atgm,s just how ttp got limited numbers of milan's from indian retards ( who happen to have closed the kandahar consulate today  since they are running for there life in Afghanistan now )
> 3. There is a massive crackdown underway since past few weeks , the peace on loc has given a oppurtunity to get things right and it seems to be happening that way , ( see IK meeting Bugti's and IK saying that they are willing to do peace talks with the bla ) , and as we know doing peace talks is the stanard PA doctorine before it uses a hammer just like before Zarb e azab we offered peace talks .
> View attachment 761220



Attacks aren’t happening in Baluchistan alone, they are also happening in the tribal belt areas. And not all attacks are on bases, actually if militants are attacking military bases, it’s much worse than anyone could have imagined. It mean attacks are no longer hit and run, ambush type engagements but rather the militants own the initiative and can attack the military inside their bases. Again, much worse situation.

pakistan army has been slow to react to the militancy threat and thus has given them the space to reorganize and reassert themselves.

Yes, better IFVs will absolutely help and reduce the causality rates being exerted on PA personal.


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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> TTP has Milans.WTH.
> And whats in the pic you posted?
> 
> Well I have not seen ATGMS or other anto armor equipment.
> I have only seen anti armour RPG 7 projectiles with them.


Anti armor RPG projectiles will tear through MRAPS, APCs and most IFVS apart from the most expensive ones. All these vehicles are meant for small arms protection. They also have SPG-9s. Both of these weapons will even go through modern tank armor unless fired at the front.

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## iLION12345_1

Falcon26 said:


> Attacks aren’t happening in Baluchistan alone, they are also happening in the tribal belt areas. And not all attacks are on bases, actually if militants are attacking military bases, it’s much worse than anyone could have imagined. It mean attacks are no longer hit and run, ambush type engagements but rather the militants own the initiative and can attack the military inside their bases. Again, much worse situation.
> 
> pakistan army has been slow to react to the militancy threat and thus has given them the space to reorganize and reassert themselves.
> 
> Yes, better IFVs will absolutely help and reduce the causality rates being exerted on PA personal.


The tribal belt attacks are cross border…and again, if you’re ready to pay for heavy IFVs, contact GHQ. I know it’s pathetic to put a value on the life of a soldier, but that’s the reality of the world.
And no, them attacking “bases” is nothing new, because they’re not bases, they’re far out checkpoints in areas where it’s difficult to get the soldiers support. It’s not like our enemy isn’t well funded.
It just shows you haven’t taken the time to study what’s actually going on in these regions. What are they gonna “hit and run” exactly? The convoy or patrol covered by the attack helicopters? Did you see what happened a week ago when they tried that?
Of course they will go for the few isolated soldiers they can pick off. Have you seen the amount of casualties suffered by the US army in Afghanistan and other such regions? They are the best equipped army in the world and it does them no good at all. Also many of the men we lose are lost in Ops…

Again, i feel extremely pathetic to be trying to justify the loss of our men, but we don’t know the reality of what it’s like in those areas, and if the world was ideal I would give them all the equipment I possibly could, Drones, Heavy IFVS, you name it, but it wouldn’t change the precarious situation on the ground.…as is shown by every counter-insurgency op in the world, Wether it be from a well funded army or a poorly funded one.

PA leadership and the generals have obviously shown incompetency and made mistakes in the past too, they are human after all, some of them are corrupt/incompetent by nature as well, but they’re not the main issue here. Pakistanis are barking up the wrong tree in regards to this problem. We give our troops IFVs and then what? The terrorists just stop? No, they will find ways to counter that, because until the government, the people and the traitors inside the nation stop selling out our troops to the enemy, both local and foreign, nothing will ever change. The PA cannot shoot this problem away or use armor to defend itself from it until it is killed from the root. Something which a Jawan or a general doesn’t control, but the entire nation does, and the nation is certainly not doing itself any favors currently. That’s what we should all he complaining about and trying to fix. Not drones and IFVs, they are a temporary solution…

I swear Pakistanis are the only nation which fight a war and expect only the enemy side to lose soldiers.

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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> TTP has Milans.WTH.
> And whats in the pic you posted?
> 
> Well I have not seen ATGMS or other anto armor equipment.
> I have only seen anti armour RPG 7 projectiles with them.


Thats a Indian Milan ATGM Container captured from TTP on display , image is flipped upside down ,


Falcon26 said:


> Attacks aren’t happening in Baluchistan alone, they are also happening in the tribal belt areas. And not all attacks are on bases, actually if militants are attacking military bases, it’s much worse than anyone could have imagined. It mean attacks are no longer hit and run, ambush type engagements but rather the militants own the initiative and can attack the military inside their bases. Again, much worse situation.
> 
> pakistan army has been slow to react to the militancy threat and thus has given them the space to reorganize and reassert themselves.
> 
> Yes, better IFVs will absolutely help and reduce the causality rates being exerted on PA personal.


Where in tribal belt ? Only attacks there are cross border firing ones at check points or ambush style attacks without ieds on patrols near border with Afghanistan ,



To Siffar zero , you should take a look at regional telegraph news , they share stuff that is still being captured from hidden ammo dumps and that contain everything from SPG to 120mm mortar to 107mm Chinese rockets that are fired from tripod

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> Thats a Indian Milan ATGM Container captured from TTP on display , image is flipped upside down ,
> 
> Where in tribal belt ? Only attacks there are cross border firing ones at check points or ambush style attacks without ieds on patrols near border with Afghanistan ,
> 
> 
> 
> To Siffar zero , you should take a look at regional telegraph news , they share stuff that is still being captured from hidden ammo dumps and that contain everything from SPG to 120mm mortar to 107mm Chinese rockets that are fired from tripod


Can you share a link to Regional Telegraph?


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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> Can you share a link to Regional Telegraph?


They post like hourly updates so it will be a tough work to search , but as you can see most of their feed is of Weapons and stuff that is being confiscated by police and others so you should find plenty of stuff. 


https://twitter.com/RegnlTelegraph?s=09


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## python-000

Pakistan need to go for these from Turkey to replace there M-113...


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## ghazi52

1st Armoured Motor Bridge, Peshawar, 3rd Anglo-Afghan War, 1919 (c).

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## Ahmet Pasha

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have to justify the purchase for conventional ops too, PA doesn’t have unlimited money sadly, otherwise turkish and South African MRAPs are easy options, the latter of which we already operate.
> Anything is better than a hilux so we should be happy with any such purchase.


Truck based MRAPs bro. They can also work wonderfully in conventional ops. 

US military has decided to adipt the JLTV which is essentially what happens when a humvee and a maxxpro have a child together.

Better examples are by Renault and Russians. Just google truck based MRAP you'll find it.


Moon said:


> Discontinuing Yasoob was a huge mistake


My thoughts exactly.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Sifar zero said:


> How was Dragoon a disaster?


The need was for an 8x8 apc. Dragoon is 4x4. Did the military adopt it?? Did the military want to use it in Zarb e Azb?? Why did PakMil buy Maxxpro and BMC Kirpi?? Why only ASF adopted it?? Why didn't even the police adopt it?? 

See doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

This BTR stuff is a little too late. I think its just the Uncles trying to buy whatever they remember from their UN tours of duty. There are much better options available for 8x8 APCs from Turkey, Serbia, China, Finland and others. Almost every country in the world is making their own 8x8 apcs.

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## Ahmet Pasha

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Two different roles:
> 1. Battle Taxi: Primary role to transport troops into combat zones
> 
> 2. IFV: Primary role is to act in support/complement tanks in armored formations along with troop transport.
> 
> You are unlikely to see all APC’s replaced with IFV’s given the cost and the fact that the PA may not see any need for huge numbers of IFV’s supporting tanks.
> 
> This has nothing to do with corruption or incompetence - it is purely a PA assessment of whether the investment in significant numbers of IFV’s is justifiable, and the advantages significant enough, given the PA’s war fighting doctrine.


IFVs are supposed to assist the troops in laying down suppressing fire and helping them advance within the U.S mil doctrine. With a secondary role of backing up tanks with ATGMs. The U.S has also long ago done away with the "battle taxi" concept our uncles are still stuck with.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Unlikely we bought any, there was talks of an order but it never seems to have gone through. I’ve never seen a Kipri in PA service. Only Maxxpro and casspir MRAPS.
> @farooqbhai007 might know better.


I have seen pictures of Kirpi with SSG somewhere on PDF.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Unlikely we bought any, there was talks of an order but it never seems to have gone through. I’ve never seen a Kipri in PA service. Only Maxxpro and casspir MRAPS.
> @farooqbhai007 might know better.


I have seen pictures of Kirpi with SSG somewhere on PDF. 


Great Janjua said:


> First of all the idea of battle taxis is just absurd long gone are the days off battle taxis ifvs can play the same role and much more also even help support the dismounts to launch attacks but most important of all it can play hunter killer role destroy enemy tanks, ifvs, low flying aerial vehicle and much more its just that our generals are living in 1940s just look at the marines they are supposed to be a 3 dimensional force but they are assigned to border patrols and being used as cheap AAD they should be deployed in hot zones throughout the country in various terrains in addition the training infrastructure needs major revamp our marines can play a major role in case of war but for that right mindset is needed right now they are a bunch of jokers


Bro truer words have never been spoken we've got too many uncles. Our military usually needs a huge kick up its @ss to actually do something creative and not something the gora left behind in 1940.

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> 1. You clearly dont understand the security situation in Balochistan , most attacks are being done on soldiers doing logistics , there was even a attack on a water truck near the city of quetta i mean last month ,
> 2. Lets say the PA equips all of its units with IFVs and armored vehicles , what would be the next case of action , the BLA would probably improvise and use bigger ied's which then again can blow up mraps as we have seen in Afghanistan , and the bla would also end up getting atgm,s just how ttp got limited numbers of milan's from indian retards ( who happen to have closed the kandahar consulate today  since they are running for there life in Afghanistan now )
> 3. There is a massive crackdown underway since past few weeks , the peace on loc has given a oppurtunity to get things right and it seems to be happening that way , ( see IK meeting Bugti's and IK saying that they are willing to do peace talks with the bla ) , and as we know doing peace talks is the stanard PA doctorine before it uses a hammer just like before Zarb e azab we offered peace talks .
> View attachment 761220


In future, instead of water in the water truck, it should be carrying troop, who jump out from the fake "water tank" and take down the ambushers. Tactics mate. You dont need to spend millions of $$$. Next time, the attackers will think ten times before taking down a vulnerable "sleeper", an un armed truck.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Signalian said:


> In future, instead of water in the water truck, it should be carrying troop, who jump out from the fake "water tank" and take down the ambushers. Tactics mate. You dont need to spend millions of $$$. Next time, the attackers will think ten times before taking down a vulnerable "sleeper", an un armed truck.


Have you been watching fast and furious again?

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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Have you been watching fast and furious again?


Baluchistan is too massive to be covered for all kinds of ops against them. Bring them where you want them. Dont go out trying to find them instead lure them in and eliminate them. Drill in their minds that if they visit populated areas like towns and cities, they will never go back alive while failing their missions. Step 1 is to scare them from entering cities. They will then come on highways, use same tactic but a bring in air support and start killing them out in the open on the roads. If possible, use un manned (RC) vehicles (Hilux's) filled with dummies. Step 2, Let the attacks begin on the roads, then pin point their locations and take them out. After a few attacks fail, they will stop attacking convoys. Step 3 is to locate their hideouts in the caves and mountains and bomb the hell out of them. Step 4 is going across the border in Afghanistan when necessary.

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## Sifar zero

Signalian said:


> Baluchistan is too massive to be covered for all kinds of ops against them. Bring them where you want them. Dont go out trying to find them instead lure them in and eliminate them. Drill in their minds that if they visit populated areas like towns and cities, they will never go back alive while failing their missions. Step 1 is to scare them from entering cities. They will then come on highways, use same tactic but a bring in air support and start killing them out in the open on the roads. If possible, use un manned (RC) vehicles (Hilux's) filled with dummies. Step 2, Let the attacks begin on the roads, then pin point their locations and take them out. After a few attacks fail, they will stop attacking convoys. Step 3 is to locate their hideouts in the caves and mountains and bomb the hell out of them. Step 4 is going across the border in Afghanistan when necessary.


You are right how about we buy some UGV's from Russia. I just saw a vid of a Russian ugv attacking ISIS it killed some 20 ISIS militants.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Signalian said:


> Baluchistan is too massive to be covered for all kinds of ops against them. Bring them where you want them. Dont go out trying to find them instead lure them in and eliminate them. Drill in their minds that if they visit populated areas like towns and cities, they will never go back alive while failing their missions. Step 1 is to scare them from entering cities. They will then come on highways, use same tactic but a bring in air support and start killing them out in the open on the roads. If possible, use un manned (RC) vehicles (Hilux's) filled with dummies. Step 2, Let the attacks begin on the roads, then pin point their locations and take them out. After a few attacks fail, they will stop attacking convoys. Step 3 is to locate their hideouts in the caves and mountains and bomb the hell out of them. Step 4 is going across the border in Afghanistan when necessary.


Well the best solution for Balochistan's problem is to send a few waderas/sardars to the firing squad, bring connectivity roads/technology/infrastructure, resources(water is a huge one), industry, business and relocate people from other provinces there. 

Would help a lot.

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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Well the best solution for Balochistan's problem is to send a few waderas/sardars to the firing squad, bring connectivity roads/technology/infrastructure, resources(water is a huge one), industry, business and relocate people from other provinces there.
> 
> Would help a lot.


Numbers war.The more numbers killed, the more it becomes a double war- a weapons war and a psychological war. The PsyOps department of PA is weak. ISPR can play its role but the number of causalities have a psychological effect. You see the resources which Pakistan has its disposal, Pakistan cannot lose a war. In past 20 years, Pakistan has sustained damage after damage, in fact colossal damage in human lives, material, infrastructure and economy, but Pakistan didn't lose. So, if its a war using weapons, Pakistan can win or sustain since the military is huge. But its the psychological war against terrorists that Pakistan needs to win, the war leading towards 5th gen warfare. There are very few cures for brainwashed extremist individuals.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Signalian said:


> Numbers war.The more numbers killed, the more it becomes a double war- a weapons war and a psychological war. The PsyOps department of PA is weak. ISPR can play its role but the number of causalities have a psychological effect. You see the resources which Pakistan has its disposal, Pakistan cannot lose a war. In past 20 years, Pakistan has sustained damage after damage, in fact colossal damage in human lives, material, infrastructure and economy, but Pakistan didn't lose. So, if its a war using weapons, Pakistan can win or sustain since the military is huge. But its the psychological war against terrorists that Pakistan needs to win, the war leading towards 5th gen warfare. There are very few cures for brainwashed extremist individuals.


ISPR has been canned it was becoming voice of the nation. But it has now been put on a leash. Terrible.

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## iLION12345_1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> IFVs are supposed to assist the troops in laying down suppressing fire and helping them advance within the U.S mil doctrine. With a secondary role of backing up tanks with ATGMs. The U.S has also long ago done away with the "battle taxi" concept our uncles are still stuck with.
> 
> I have seen pictures of Kirpi with SSG somewhere on PDF.
> 
> I have seen pictures of Kirpi with SSG somewhere on PDF.
> 
> Bro truer words have never been spoken we've got too many uncles. Our military usually needs a huge kick up its @ss to actually do something creative and not something the gora left behind in 1940.


Unlikely they were kipri, you’re probably confusing them for Casspir or Maxxpro, If there was a photo of PA with Kipri, we would have seen it by now.

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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> ISPR has been canned it was becoming voice of the nation. But it has now been put on a leash. Terrible.


ISPR is just one part of the jigsaw. Multiple voices are needed especially a Baluchi voice which the Baluchi people understand. You don't always need a military voice, a military mind and a military solution. Putting down more boots and more APCs in Baluchistan may not be the best idea. Policing isn't needed, weeding is needed. The best minds of the nation need to sit down at some level, even govt level and propose solutions which brings prosperity to the province and eliminates all threats. Everyone looks at the military not coz of its might because the military training institutions of the country are the best. What about the civilian training institutions churning out CSS officers and other bureaucrats. Some problems are not for military to solve, but they are handed as last resort to military. Probably this last resort should never come, the brains in upper echelons are there, or are they not.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Signalian said:


> ISPR is just one part of the jigsaw. Multiple voices are needed especially a Baluchi voice which the Baluchi people understand. You don't always need a military voice, a military mind and a military solution. Putting down more boots and more APCs in Baluchistan may not be the best idea. Policing isn't needed, weeding is needed. The best minds of the nation need to sit down at some level, even govt level and propose solutions which brings prosperity to the province and eliminates all threats. Everyone looks at the military not coz of its might because the military training institutions of the country are the best. What about the civilian training institutions churning out CSS officers and other bureaucrats. Some problems are not for military to solve, but they are handed as last resort to military. Probably this last resort should never come, the brains in upper echelons are there, or are they not.


Civil service recruitment is soooo broken. Like broken on astronomical levels. In America you actually have to compete tooth and nail for civil service jobs. You have to have tons of experience or at least a PhD to get Pakistani equivalent of babu jobs. That's why Pakistani babus are no match for American babus. That and the fact Pakistani uncle minded paindu babus melt right when they see white skin ladies and men. Ladies more than men.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418414066318684160

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## Primus

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418414066318684160


Any idea how big the IED was?


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## PanzerKiel

Huffal said:


> Any idea how big the IED was?


The explosion was caused by a TM-62M mine, and the crew was left uninjured. 7.5 kg of explosives.

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## Primus

PanzerKiel said:


> The explosion was caused by a TM-62M mine, and the crew was left uninjured. 7.5 kg of explosives.
> View attachment 764520


That's pretty good protection then

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## Raja Porus

Huffal said:


> That's pretty good protection then


Yep, the mine was for anti-tank role.

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## PanzerKiel

Huffal said:


> That's pretty good protection then


Lucky it blasted beneath the engine...... Otherwise results would have been different.

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## Dreamer.

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418414066318684160


Where did this happen?


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## Cookie Monster

Falcon26 said:


> The PA doesn’t seem to care about the well-being of its troops. They continue to be targeted in IED attacks when properly equipped IFVs are available.


I don't think the mindset is "who cares if our soldiers die"...as the ppl here are making it out to be. I think it has always been the case that all our military procurements are looked at with the threat of India on mind. Yes Pakistan has been fighting the militants for decades now...but that threat is considered mild compared to the behemoth that Indian military is. Couple that with the huge difference between India's purchasing power...and Pakistan's purchasing power...and it's obvious why Pakistan needs to counter Indian capabilities first and foremost and make every cent count. This is why we see purchases like artillery, submarines, MPAs, surface vessels, tanks, jets, etc. It's obvious that we would hardly use tanks and subs against some rogue militants. One can hardly blame the military for going down this route given Pak's situation. Diverting the precious limited resources towards acquiring modern APC and IFVs...means taking resources away from elsewhere...
...coupled with the fact that Pak already has huge quantities of M113s. Either these are deemed sufficient...or even if not sufficient...replacing these again adds a huge cost.

IMO best way forward is not to expect a paradigm shift...nor expecting some magical extra money to pop up for such purchases while economy is struggling. A solution must be figured out that keeps costs affordable within the current allocation...and still provides PA with a good enough APC that can serve dual purposes. First to use them against terrorists until that situation is brought to an end...and can also be used in case of war against India.
Perhaps Pak can work with China/Ukraine/South Africa...to modernize/uparmor M113 APCs...kind of like what was done with AZ program. Slowly build up and churn out these upgraded M113s and start using them in areas where the terrorists are most active(areas that are their stronghold...where most IED attacks are carried out). Supplement these APCs with about 500 modern MRAPs(ideally local produced under license)...and more surveillance via drones. This type of protection and situational awareness of Pak Army convoys engaging those terrorists would see much less casualties due to IEDs or RPGs.

EDIT: the MRAPs are still a big expense...especially considering that they are lower in terms of importance...when compared to APCs and IFVs...but one can hope.

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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> Some time I really feel doing a protest outside GHQ for not getting MRAP for our soldiers


You would be trialed in military court for that 'jisarat'. Tagging you along with some nefarious group would be easier due to your tactical beard

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## Zarvan

Dreamer. said:


> Where did this happen?


Syria. Russian soldiers who are deployed there often face attacks. They are busy testing their MRAP there.

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## The Terminator

The Sandman said:


> But won't that hamper it's mobility in jungle or mountainous terrain?
> 
> Cuz in WW2 Germans installed these side skirts or "Schurzen" to stop HEAT rounds and i have heard the tank crews hated them cuz they hampered the mobility in terrains other than roads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also can an MRAP's windows have ability to stop .50 cal or a more heavier round?


Those side skirts were installed actually to deter the anti tank rifles back then. Side armor wasn't enough to stop heavy caliber anti tank rifle rounds. If panzer Faust, RPG of that time would have exploded prematurely that was clearly an added bonus, more of a positive side effect . But initially it wasn't designed to counter RPGs threat

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## Sifar zero

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Well the best solution for Balochistan's problem is to send a few waderas/sardars to the firing squad, bring connectivity roads/technology/infrastructure, resources(water is a huge one), industry, business and relocate people from other provinces there.
> 
> Would help a lot.


Killing sardars will have no benefit even though the sardars deserve it. 
The current insurgency is neither funded nor being led by sardars it is led by non-sardars and Balochs from ordinary families.
Allah Nazar,Bashir Zeb,Gulzar Imam you name them all of them were students before becoming terrorists.

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## The Terminator

python-000 said:


> Pakistan need to develop something like that !!!
> View attachment 439841
> View attachment 439842


Perhaps borrow from them 2nd hand as they are going to replace them soon but alas! We are short on Coalition Support funds these days. Maybe we should snatch the Kabul airport security deal with the US from Turkey, it might do the trick


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## The Terminator

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Only if Tri services could increase synergy, standerdize needs, and jointly make many more based on scale.


Like what US did with the F-35!


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## Ahmet Pasha

The Terminator said:


> Like what US did with the F-35!


Blackhawk is a better example.


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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> This is whats happening to Saudi coalition IFV's, APC's and MRAP's in yemen war. One of the problem i see is that infantry is not combing the area on foot. Solitary vehicles are becoming easy targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we discussed PA not having a proper IFV, instead PA has APC's and uses dismounted troops for combat, is an IFV suitable for COIN war or is it wrong tactics for IFV and MRAP here?
> 
> @Ulla @Zarvan @Gryphon


Saudis lack the will to fight. I have been up close with their military. They are more concerned about whats happening inside their families and homes rather than focusing on their jobs or serving their country, including military too. Cheers! 

Even a Yemeni citizen working in Riyadh complained that Yemen don't have a airforce to fight with them, otherwise they would have defeated the Saudis comprehensively.

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## The Terminator

AMG_12 said:


> Wrong Tactics, they'll learn it the hard way. IFVs are sitting ducks if not supplemented by Infantry in urban warfare.


No they won't. Instead they would pay you to fight for them that too in $$$

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## The Terminator

Inception-06 said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Zarvan @Starlord @django Have you seen the film "Masters and commander", the first battle scene is very important, to understand my post:
> 
> 
> Apko tori himat wi chaie dismount karne lie, lagta he ye apni jan boot piyare karte he
> 
> I think we are underestimating the Saudis, in my opinion, they now the BASIC tactics and strategies from the books, they have the equipment which you have mentioned, but that's not all what you need to motivate your infantry to dismount from your vehicles and battle the enemy. My point is, that the Saudi Soldiers are shocked and afraid when they enter the hot zones, no chance of leaving the vehicles/dismount, even a logical and coordinated communication and attack is not possible because of fear and lack of discipline. Totally opposite from the Pakistani infantry that's what I have observed since the Yemen War. So yes we can do the job against the Indian with our equipment. Training and equipment is not everything, ready to die is the way forward!
> 
> 
> View attachment 448077
> 
> 
> 
> -lack of leadership
> 
> - lack of discipline
> 
> - no coordination
> 
> -no rational communication
> 
> -no experience in a live firing exercise
> 
> -no will do die and make sacrifices


Add 1 more thing to it. Excess of luxury in their lives. Very junior NCOs own big SUVs there Japanese, American you name it. IPhones seem to be standard issued there 

Contrary to that, our NCO thinks is jeenay se to marna hi behtr he. Shaheed huy to compensation money se family status barh jyga r bchay ki job b LG jygi

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## Cookie Monster

AMG_12 said:


> We too learned it the hard way when our convoys were badly ambushed in FATA and SWAT. Since our troops mobility is dependent on unprotected vehicles mainly trucks, the casualties were outstanding. Those events resulted in the reconfiguration and development of new strategies including the introduction of mobile jammers to the battlefield, aerial protection and as you mentioned, dismounted troops. The Saudi battlefield is a lot different from ours and so they've to tailor their strategies as per their terrain, the type of enemy faced and the resources at hand.


Do u think it would be helpful to have technologies such as the mine detection vehicle(as shown in post 603), along with the mobile jammers(to disrupt IED remote detonation), a surveillance drone overhead, and something like this below...








Boomerang (countermeasure) - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




...to immediately detect enemy locations when they fire?

If Pak Army convoys had situational awareness it would increase survivability...like for example as soon as they are fired upon...the boomerang like system would detect location. A drone like Shahpar overhead can start monitoring the area from where the convoy was fired upon. This footage being accessible to the soldiers inside the APC. So they can position themselves accordingly and take the appropriate action.
Or am I going too much based off the movies? 🤣

@PanzerKiel sir aap kuch bol hi dein...sirf react kiye ja rahay hain...woh bhi emojis ke saath. Ur insight would be much appreciated.

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## Moon

Huffal said:


> That's pretty good protection then


Not really, if it went off underneath the belly, as opposed to tyre/engine, things would be much different. 
Most explosives we've faced are IEDs which go off right underneath the vehicle.


Cookie Monster said:


> Do u think it would be helpful to have technologies such as the mine detection vehicle(as shown in post 603), along with the mobile jammers(to disrupt IED remote detonation), a surveillance drone overhead, and something like this below...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boomerang (countermeasure) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...to immediately detect enemy locations when they fire?
> 
> If Pak Army convoys had situational awareness it would increase survivability...like for example as soon as they are fired upon...the boomerang like system would detect location. A drone like Shahpar overhead can start monitoring the area from where the convoy was fired upon. This footage being accessible to the soldiers inside the APC. So they can position themselves accordingly and take the appropriate action.
> Or am I going too much based off the movies? 🤣
> 
> @PanzerKiel sir aap kuch bol hi dein...sirf react kiye ja rahay hain...woh bhi emojis ke saath. Ur insight would be much appreciated.


These passive sensors, along with WAMI are game changers in and play a huge role in establishing a "security grid".

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## Inception-06

The Terminator said:


> Add 1 more thing to it. Excess of luxury in their lives. Very junior NCOs own big SUVs there Japanese, American you name it. IPhones seem to be standard issued there
> 
> Contrary to that, our NCO thinks is jeenay se to marna hi behtr he. Shaheed huy to compensation money se family status barh jyga r bchay ki job b LG jygi



Who are you, would you like to introduce yourself, not seen very often members who read and replying 5 years old post’s. Are you studying pakistandefence ?

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418158936012689408


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## Zarvan

Every Turkish companies shows new products in its defence exhibition

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## farooqbhai007

More than a dozen Maxx Pros received from Afghanistan since yesterday.
Looks like PA is buying back most of the American MRAPs from Taliban.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461980363652227075

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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> More than a dozen Maxx Pros received from Afghanistan since yesterday.
> Looks like PA is buying back most of the American MRAPs from Taliban.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461980363652227075


Quite some news, could mean that the forces are looking into buying other Left-behind equipment from Afghanistan too. They’re probably getting it pretty cheap as well. A little late for all the people crying about MRAPs but better late than never.

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## bananarepublic

farooqbhai007 said:


> More than a dozen Maxx Pros received from Afghanistan since yesterday.
> Looks like PA is buying back most of the American MRAPs from Taliban.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461980363652227075


I remember a fairly large number of them were being transported near pindi. Thought they were the old ones bought in 2014ish


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## farooqbhai007

bananarepublic said:


> I remember a fairly large number of them were being transported near pindi. Thought they were the old ones bought in 2014ish


These pictures are of a new batch brought in from Afghanistan. I saw some being transported in Rawalpindi today as well.

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## Sayfullah

farooqbhai007 said:


> More than a dozen Maxx Pros received from Afghanistan since yesterday.
> Looks like PA is buying back most of the American MRAPs from Taliban.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461980363652227075



Are they just buying maxx pros or Humvees too?


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Are they just buying maxx pros or Humvees too?


Humvees are not useful, why would we buy them?

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## Sayfullah

iLION12345_1 said:


> Humvees are not useful, why would we buy them?



Their better than the pickup trucks we use right now. Buying them from Taliban we would get them for cheaper than a new pickup truck would cost and it offers at least some protection. Also up armoured Humvees are almost as armoured as mraps and Taliban have those too.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Even decommissioned Helicopters are good pieces to buy for research and reverse engineering

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## Ahmet Pasha

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Their better than the pickup trucks we use right now. Buying them from Taliban we would get them for cheaper than a new pickup truck would cost and it offers at least some protection. Also up armoured Humvees are almost as armoured as mraps and Taliban have those too.


Humvee is probably same as an APC mohafiz built on a Toyota Land Cruiser 72


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Their better than the pickup trucks we use right now. Buying them from Taliban we would get them for cheaper than a new pickup truck would cost and it offers at least some protection. Also up armoured Humvees are almost as armoured as mraps and Taliban have those too.


Humvees offer no small arms protection at all, let alone IED protection. 
They were never made to be armored trucks, up-armored ones provide some protection against small arms only where the armor coverage is present.

But these machines are also old, slow and have tons of mechanical and reliability issues that only countries with proper supply lines set up for them can deal with, something us with no prior use and no direct sales from the US do not have. I agree that anything is better than a hilux, but even if they’re cheap. That money is better spent elsewhere, hopefully buying proper Armored vehicles for the forces.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Humvee is probably same as an APC mohafiz built on a Toyota Land Cruiser 72


Less, the normal Humvee has Absolutely no armor at all, people think it was designed to be armored or something. The body is made out of fiberglass to save weight. It’s durable yes, but won’t stop a bullet.

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## Sayfullah

iLION12345_1 said:


> Humvees offer no small arms protection at all, let alone IED protection.
> They were never made to be armored trucks, up-armored ones provide some protection against small arms only where the armor coverage is present.
> 
> But these machines are also old, slow and have tons of mechanical and reliability issues that only countries with proper supply lines set up for them can deal with, something us with no prior use and no direct sales from the US do not have. I agree that anything is better than a hilux, but even if they’re cheap. That money is better spent elsewhere, hopefully buying proper Armored vehicles for the forces.
> 
> Less, the normal Humvee has Absolutely no armor at all, people think it was designed to be armored or something. The body is made out of fiberglass to save weight. It’s durable yes, but won’t stop a bullet.



The ones Taliban have seem to be well armoured they can stop small arms pretty easily and even rpg‘s. But yeah there might be supply line issues since we bought them from Taliban not usa


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> The ones Taliban have seem to be well armoured they can stop small arms pretty easily and even rpg‘s. But yeah there might be supply line issues since we bought them from Taliban not usa


They will definitely not stop an RPG or an IED, no matter how much armor you put on top of them. At most they’ll stop small arms like 5.56 and 7.62 (upto 12.7mm for the really up-armored ones). And that too only where the protection is present. The Humvee was never designed to be an armored vehicle. 

keep in mind these things are so slow that soldiers used to take _off_ doors and armor to make them mobile enough to get through bad terrain, so all that bolt on armor comes at quite some cost too.

Again, they’re definitely better protection than a hilux (only when armored, an unarmored Humvee or hilux offers the exact same protection, none), but the money is definitely better spent elsewhere, like acquiring proper Armored vehicles.


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## Moon

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> The ones Taliban have seem to be well armoured they can stop small arms pretty easily and even rpg‘s. But yeah there might be supply line issues since we bought them from Taliban not usa


Humvees aren't designed to stop IEDs, not even the uparmoured ones. In terms of capabilities they'll bring to the table for Pakistan, it'll be a step back... They're more expensive than pickups, cost more to maintain and an IED will blow them 10 feet in the air.
As for RPGs, nothing stops those, maybe slat armour, but even they are vulnerable to tandem warhead RPGs.

What Pakistan needs is a V-Shaped hull MRAP based on the Land-Crusier chassis, I don't know how something like that can be built, but it needs to be cheap and easy to operate and maintain. (Look at the Buffel and UniBuffel for inspiration, idk).
While for larger troop transport, HINO truck chassis needs to be modified into a MRAP, many countries do this, in fact most MRAPs are based on modified commercial chassis.

Lastly armoured police vans are needed (the one's that'll operate in cities, with paved roads, they'll be the ones encountering SVBIEDs or motorcycle IEDs.) They can be built slightly cheap as they don't need a complex hull or suspension.

This might seem like a lot, but remember this was needed to be done 20 years ago, had we started this then, we'd have a booming APC/MRAP industry by now.
Instead we blew money away on tanks and now IFVs, that won't even see action their entire lives. Or Frigates....

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## farooqbhai007

Moon said:


> Humvees aren't designed to stop IEDs, not even the uparmoured ones. In terms of capabilities they'll bring to the table for Pakistan, it'll be a step back... They're more expensive than pickups, cost more to maintain and an IED will blow them 10 feet in the air.
> As for RPGs, nothing stops those, maybe slat armour, but even they are vulnerable to tandem warhead RPGs.
> 
> What Pakistan needs is a V-Shaped hull MRAP based on the Land-Crusier chassis, I don't know how something like that can be built, but it needs to be cheap and easy to operate and maintain. (Look at the Buffel and UniBuffel for inspiration, idk).
> While for larger troop transport, HINO truck chassis needs to be modified into a MRAP, many countries do this, in fact most MRAPs are based on modified commercial chassis.
> 
> Lastly armoured police vans are needed (the one's that'll operate in cities, with paved roads, they'll be the ones encountering SVBIEDs or motorcycle IEDs.) They can be built slightly cheap as they don't need a complex hull or suspension.
> 
> This might seem like a lot, but remember this was needed to be done 20 years ago, had we started this then, we'd have a booming APC/MRAP industry by now.
> Instead we blew money away on tanks and now IFVs, that won't even see action their entire lives. Or Frigates....


Counter insurgency war is over. BLA is dead and TTP doing a peace deal to end the insurgency for good.
Do you intend to use a mrap against a Indian BMP2 in future scenarios. I'd like to see how that one plays out.
And land cruiser chassis can't be converted into a mrap ,its too small
.


Secondly in all countries its private companies that come up with new designs not state owned manufacturers.
So if you have a problem with us not having any mraps I'd suggest investing in a private company that can design a mrap , if you cannot do that then please keep your opinions to your self.

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Counter insurgency war is over. BLA is dead and TTP doing a peace deal to end the insurgency for good.
> Do you intend to use a mrap against a Indian BMP2 in future scenarios. I'd like to see how that one plays out.
> And land cruiser chassis can't be converted into a mrap ,its too small
> .
> 
> 
> Secondly in all countries its private companies that come up with new designs not state owned manufacturers.
> So if you have a problem with us not having any mraps I'd suggest investing in a private company that can design a mrap , if you cannot do that then please keep your opinions to your self.


Pakistan will always facing some sort of insurgency. Yes you need MRAP. Even in normal times many forces used some sort of armored vehicles for troops movement.

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> Counter insurgency war is over.


I hope you are correct

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## Suff Shikan

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should have adopted these. They were better protected then American Humvees and if I am not wrong South Korea was offering TOT.










Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should have adopted these. They were better protected then American Humvees and if I am not wrong South Korea was offering TOT.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan got the pass from his mamu. Who selected Scar for Army. Just fyi 😇

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## Moon

farooqbhai007 said:


> Counter insurgency war is over. BLA is dead and TTP doing a peace deal to end the insurgency for good.


That is far from true, even if BLA and TTP stop their activities, the proliferation of bomb making and IED making know-how is so much, that gangs and other criminal organizations will keep this up long after TTP or BLA is dissolved.
Secondly I won't go into the debate of whether or not TTP or BLA is dead, but they're far from dead.


farooqbhai007 said:


> And land cruiser chassis can't be converted into a mrap ,its too small


I know they're too small, but smaller MRAPs exist, or at least their prototypes did. The main point is, something cheap to build and operate with preferably off the shelf parts, doesn't have to be a Land Cruiser chassis, the South Africans made do with Unimogs.


farooqbhai007 said:


> Secondly in all countries its private companies that come up with new designs not state owned manufacturers.


Yes, here we have state owned manufacturers buying blueprints of vehicles that aren't even in widespread service... What stopped them from buying NORINCO or South African designs? Nigerians build them, Indians build them, heck UAE started few years ago as well. 
Easy to blame the private companies, but such an environment doesn't even exist in the first place. Only an idiot would risk their capital and safety to market a MRAP to a military that operates less than a 100 MRAPs, despite facing a 20 year long WoT.

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## Sine Nomine

farooqbhai007 said:


> Counter insurgency war is over. BLA is dead and TTP doing a peace deal to end the insurgency for good.
> Do you intend to use a mrap against a Indian BMP2 in future scenarios. I'd like to see how that one plays out.


Atleast division sized light infantry equipped with MRAP's is needed even if insurgency dies but it's not dying BLA is searching for another sugar daddy who can provide them money and logistics along with safe heavens,while TTP is buying time for next round.



farooqbhai007 said:


> Secondly in all countries its private companies that come up with new designs not state owned manufacturers.
> So if you have a problem with us not having any mraps I'd suggest investing in a private company that can design a mrap , if you cannot do that then please keep your opinions to your self.


Please list anyother such country which has any organisation like HIT and complete monoply of Government over equipment R&D and manufacturing.
Designing MRAPS isn't rocket science it's just manpower is expandable.

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## iLION12345_1

Guess what I saw driving through a certain city tonight. These are 100% coming from Afghanistan given their condition. Probably going to get overhauled first and then into service. The marking on it is interesting. PA51. 51st delivery? 51st delivery for PA? This is like the 3rd or 4th batch.

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## TsAr

iLION12345_1 said:


> Guess what I saw driving through a certain city tonight. These are 100% coming from Afghanistan given their condition. Probably going to get overhauled first and then into service. The marking on it is interesting. PA51. 51st delivery? 51st delivery for PA? This is like the 3rd or 4th batch.
> View attachment 796400
> View attachment 796401
> View attachment 796402
> View attachment 796403
> View attachment 796404
> View attachment 796405
> View attachment 796406


this looks like RWP, GT Road.

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## iLION12345_1

TsAr said:


> this looks like RWP, GT Road.



Didn’t want to be the one to say it. Yes, they were heading into 502 for overhauls I assume.

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## TsAr

iLION12345_1 said:


> Didn’t want to be the one to say it. Yes, they were heading into 502 for overhauls I assume.


Well anyone from the city should be able to guess it correctly. PA is looking to buy as much equipment from the Talibans before it could fall into wrong hands.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Guess what I saw driving through a certain city tonight. These are 100% coming from Afghanistan given their condition. Probably going to get overhauled first and then into service. The marking on it is interesting. PA51. 51st delivery? 51st delivery for PA? This is like the 3rd or 4th batch.
> View attachment 796400
> View attachment 796401
> View attachment 796402
> View attachment 796403
> View attachment 796404
> View attachment 796405
> View attachment 796406


Mall road, RWP. Opposite to PC as well as MCS.

Khair nal a... Khair nal ja.

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## Falcon26

The NYT last month reported how Pakistan was buying back American weapons in Afghanistan so they don’t fall into ISIS-K hands. 









For Sale Now: U.S.-Supplied Weapons in Afghan Gun Shops (Published 2021)


The Taliban seized troves of American weapons and vehicles from surrendering Afghan soldiers. Now, gun dealers are doing a brisk business.




www.nytimes.com

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## Signalian

Should there be an APC transport company or coys in S&T battalion supporting Armor/Mech Divs consisting of Al-Qaswa M-113 derivative.

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## Madni Bappa

Signalian said:


> Should there be an APC transport company or coys in S&T battalion supporting Armor/Mech Divs consisting of Al-Qaswa M-113 derivative.


A good chunk of what HIT makes should be in museums already.

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## Signalian

Madni Bappa said:


> A good chunk of what HIT makes should be in museums already.


After it sees service for a day, we will do as you like. Till then pray that some of the stuff that HIT produces sees service in PA at least.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> After it sees service for a day, we will do as you like. Till then pray that some of the stuff that HIT produces sees service in PA at least.

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## Tipu7

We have been eyeing a wheeled APC from quite a time.


Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 823189
> View attachment 823190

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## Raja Porus

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 823189
> View attachment 823190


From the wheels and the white ATGM it seems to be Type 08 Amphibious ifv and since the other officer is of navy then it may be for marines(highly unlikely)

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## Great Janjua

I mean it does not get cheaper, better armoured, flexible than this.


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## Inception-06



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## Zarvan

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 823189
> View attachment 823190


Is the Army guy from HIT ?

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> Is the Army guy from HIT ?


 Yes exactly, you can find more about him on official HIt website.

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## Raja Porus

Great Janjua said:


> View attachment 824755
> 
> I mean it does not get cheaper, better armoured, flexible than this.


Protection level remains the same while carrying one less person. It'd be better to put a weapon station on M113 than buying this.
On the other hand Chinese ifvs with additional armour can provide 30mm protection.

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## Great Janjua

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Protection level remains the same while carrying one less person. It'd be better to put a weapon station on M113 than buying this.
> On the other hand, Chinese IFVs with additional armour can provide 30mm protection.


It's a modular design, armour add-ons and turret modifications can be modified according to mission requirements.

Plus Chinese IFVs provide only 30mm protection on the front. All-round protection remains at 14.5mm. 

This is the same with the said Slovenian IFV. However, one thing the Slovenians is extremely good at is mine protection the Chinese come nowhere close.

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## Raja Porus

AFV=?
M113 or a new indigenous design?








Semi-active protection system?

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## Great Janjua

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 827545
> 
> 
> AFV=?
> M113 or a new indigenous design?
> View attachment 827547
> View attachment 827548
> 
> 
> Semi-active protection system?


Probably a cheap unorthodox design they licensed for in house production.

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## Great Janjua

Looking at the modern-day problems related to insurgency are IEDs, landmines, RPG attacks, and ambushes these sweeping kinetic issues can no longer be handled by pick-up vehicles or Hiluxes with simple gun mounts. To combat the former said shortcomings every tom dick and Harry at least with functional brain cells have unfurled Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) for short, vehicles into the battlefield.

UAE for instance

*The HAFEET MK2 6x6 platform offers a range of configurations that feature a monocoque, engine protection to provide STANAG 4569 AEP-55 standard blast protection for 2 crew and 10 passengers.

Delivering impressive performance and mobility for a vehicle of its class, including speeds up to 110 km/h, the HAFEET MK2 6x6 features a modular construction allowing extraction of the complete power pack, including cooling, engine, transmission and transfer case, rapidly.*


Now something like the Hafeet MK2 is cheap, reliable and easy to mass-produce just like a Hilux or any other pickup vehicle whilst providing better protection, survivability and longevity not just for the operators but the whole mission.

There is also a 4x4 Ajban variant with a large separate armoured storage compartment at the rear for ammo, food, medical supplies. You name it the compartment can hold it.

Solutions like these should be looked at by PA for Hotzone operations I know the thread is about APCs but seeing Hiluxes being blown to smithereens then getting a random "oh we are testing an APC only after we lost 1000 men" response, is appalling. forget the APCs buy a damn MRAP first morons.


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## denel

Great Janjua said:


> Looking at the modern-day problems related to insurgency are IEDs, landmines, RPG attacks, and ambushes these sweeping kinetic issues can no longer be handled by pick-up vehicles or Hiluxes with simple gun mounts. To combat the former said shortcomings every tom dick and Harry at least with functional brain cells have unfurled Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) for short, vehicles into the battlefield.
> 
> UAE for instance
> 
> *The HAFEET MK2 6x6 platform offers a range of configurations that feature a monocoque, engine protection to provide STANAG 4569 AEP-55 standard blast protection for 2 crew and 10 passengers.
> 
> Delivering impressive performance and mobility for a vehicle of its class, including speeds up to 110 km/h, the HAFEET MK2 6x6 features a modular construction allowing extraction of the complete power pack, including cooling, engine, transmission and transfer case, rapidly.*
> 
> 
> Now something like the Hafeet MK2 is cheap, reliable and easy to mass-produce just like a Hilux or any other pickup vehicle whilst providing better protection, survivability and longevity not just for the operators but the whole mission.
> 
> There is also a 4x4 Ajban variant with a large separate armoured storage compartment at the rear for ammo, food, medical supplies. You name it the compartment can hold it.
> 
> Solutions like these should be looked at by PA for Hotzone operations I know the thread is about APCs but seeing Hiluxes being blown to smithereens then getting a random "oh we are testing an APC only after we lost 1000 men" response, is appalling. forget the APCs buy a damn MRAP first morons.


No friend, why are you asking NIMR etc; they are all using South African products.

You need just to get hold of either OTT technologies: these are pretty good and former SAMIL production that are continuing; they are also refurbishing older Ratels/Casspirs and selling all over.






OTT Technologies | Military Systems and Technology


OTT Technologies (Pty) Ltd (OTT) is a South African company located outside Pretoria. The company is in operation since 1980. OTT developed over the y...




www.militarysystems-tech.com





If you want the best, then you need Paramount. The problem is always, Pak needs to step up and ASK!!!!.... THEY KEEEP SQUANDERING. Are people's lives that cheap? 

Paramount or even OTT can work a new solution using local manufacturing. Come on guys, this is called taking a decision instead of begging for handouts from US.

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## Great Janjua

denel said:


> No friend, why are you asking NIMR etc; they are all using South African products.
> 
> You need just to get hold of either OTT technologies: these are pretty good and former SAMIL production that are continuing; they are also refurbishing older Ratels/Casspirs and selling all over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OTT Technologies | Military Systems and Technology
> 
> 
> OTT Technologies (Pty) Ltd (OTT) is a South African company located outside Pretoria. The company is in operation since 1980. OTT developed over the y...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.militarysystems-tech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want the best, then you need Paramount. The problem is always, Pak needs to step up and ASK!!!!.... THEY KEEEP SQUANDERING. Are people's lives that cheap?
> 
> Paramount or even OTT can work a new solution using local manufacturing. Come on guys, this is called taking a decision instead of begging for handouts from US.


The problem is we are playing trench warfare with the soldiers' lives to us the solution to everything is throwing more men at the problem whilst any MRAP we beg off USA we use as "BASE PROTECTION" like some Taliban is gonna lob an IED at the MRAP. It's safe to assume our thought process is backwards and unusual.

On the other hand countries such as UAE, India and Egypt all have taken advantage of South African expertise and have brought on several engineers to work in the respective countries instead.

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## denel

Great Janjua said:


> The problem is we are playing trench warfare with the soldiers' lives to us the solution to everything is throwing more men at the problem whilst any MRAP we beg off USA we use as "BASE PROTECTION" like some Taliban is gonna lob an IED at the MRAP. It's safe to assume our thought process is backwards and unusual.


THis boils my blood my friend. THis is technology from laet 60s; we perfected it. Man why the f. do you want US and others unknown players..... US is using OUR design as a base.

When we had our back side blown up when using Eland vehicles in 70s incursion; CSIR stepped in to come up with design which was based on practical input from Rhodesian experience. 

Here is something from OTT which is good enough; very simple - you can use same Toyota engines from Hino trucks in these or Iveco as well.










Great Janjua said:


> The problem is we are playing trench warfare with the soldiers' lives to us the solution to everything is throwing more men at the problem whilst any MRAP we beg off USA we use as "BASE PROTECTION" like some Taliban is gonna lob an IED at the MRAP. It's safe to assume our thought process is backwards and unusual.
> 
> On the other hand countries such as UAE, India and Egypt all have taken advantage of South African expertise and have brought on several engineers to work in the respective countries instead.


You forget Jordan, Saudi Arabia (NIMR relabel), Kazakstan, Azerbaijan, US, Canada etc and list goes on.

My colleagues will tell you - we will work with anyone and work out a turn key solution that is a win win. 

All I see is Pak general and staff show up and eat samoosas here with us but we never get any business. It is not right; I hate that Paramount went and did business with Tata but it is business.

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## Great Janjua

denel said:


> THis boils my blood my friend. THis is technology from laet 60s; we perfected it. Man why the f. do you want US and others unknown players..... US is using OUR design as a base.
> 
> When we had our back side blown up when using Eland vehicles in 70s incursion; CSIR stepped in to come up with design which was based on practical input from Rhodesian experience.
> 
> Here is something from OTT which is good enough; very simple - you can use same Toyota engines from Hino trucks in these or Iveco as well.


South African defence industry was level above back when "War on Terror" started and still is due to its unique blueprints and battle-proven stamps. 

I just feel sad whenever I think of the missed opportunities and short-sightedness we have shown towards you guys whilst the rest of the world has taken benefit of your expertise without giving you guys genuine credit.

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## Signalian

Saw some antennas on a Stryker vehicle. Was told these are related to EW. Haven’t seen any in PA M-113

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## denel

Signalian said:


> Saw some antennas on a Stryker vehicle. Was told these are related to EW. Haven’t seen any in PA M-113


I was not aware they had it installed in Strykers?


----------



## JK!

FNSS are offering upgrades to the M113 to A4 standard. 

Is this something Pakistan could consider?


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## denel

JK! said:


> FNSS are offering upgrades to the M113 to A4 standard.
> 
> Is this something Pakistan could consider?


Friend

What is the ROI and case for this upgrade? The biggest need is the vision for establishing complete Mine proof vehicles. This is the biggest and most current need.

Just look across the border, Mbombe is now taking hold there; this is a classic case of squandering all the potential establishment of key industries - this would have seen great opportunities - establishment of a truck manufacturing base, and using this as an offshoot to come up with a dual use mine proof chassis for an IFV.


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549022783102926848


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## Great Janjua

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549022783102926848


They took aboard South African designs and labelled them as indigenous this is what you call smart. Whilst we are fast asleep.

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## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> They took aboard South African designs and labelled them as indigenous this is what you call smart. Whilst we are fast asleep.


Thing is their leadership care about their soldiers and their lives. They are not of the view that causalities happen in a war. And ours don't care.

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## Zarvan

Turkey alone has several companies which offer great MRAP but our leadership I still have no clue why they are not investing in MRAP. And please don't give me budget crap. We are facing war on terror for past 16 years. We have bought thousands of different weapon systems since then. Way expensive then these MRAP. Only thing which we are not focusing on are MRAP for soldiers.

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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 866662
> 
> View attachment 866663
> 
> View attachment 866664
> 
> View attachment 866666
> 
> Turkey alone has several companies which offer great MRAP but our leadership I still have no clue why they are not investing in MRAP. And please don't give me budget crap. We are facing war on terror for past 16 years. We have bought thousands of different weapon systems since then. Way expensive then these MRAP. Only thing which we are not focusing on are MRAP for soldiers.


raja jee abhi inventory mey 500+ mrap hain hamarey pass including Maxx Pros, Cassapirs & lencos that is more than current Indian inventory.

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## arslank03

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 866662
> 
> View attachment 866663
> 
> View attachment 866664
> 
> View attachment 866666
> 
> Turkey alone has several companies which offer great MRAP but our leadership I still have no clue why they are not investing in MRAP. And please don't give me budget crap. We are facing war on terror for past 16 years. We have bought thousands of different weapon systems since then. Way expensive then these MRAP. Only thing which we are not focusing on are MRAP for soldiers.


MRAPS= pretty useless in a conventional war.

Do remember, our primary threat is India, hence the procurement focus being things to use against them.


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## HAIDER

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549022783102926848


Buiding inventory for Kashmir. Indian govt building massive invasion in Kashmir urban area.


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## Zarvan

arslank03 said:


> MRAPS= pretty useless in a conventional war.
> 
> Do remember, our primary threat is India, hence the procurement focus being things to use against them.


We have lost 10000 soldiers in this war on terror. In fact more then that and double the amount has lost limbs. And no they are not useless. When ever they have been used inside Pakistan they have done the job and saved lives. In Quetta a suicide bomber hit Police MRAP when it was raiding a house in Quetta all inside survived. Just recently an IED attack took place on one MRAP. Again all inside survived. So no they are quite effective.

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## arslank03

Zarvan said:


> We have lost 10000 soldiers in this war on terror. In fact more then that and double the amount has lost limbs. And no they are not useless. When ever they have been used inside Pakistan they have done the job and saved lives. In Quetta a suicide bomber hit Police MRAP when it was raiding a house in Quetta all inside survived. Just recently an IED attack took place on one MRAP. Again all inside survived. So no they are quite effective.



MRAPS= pretty useless in a *conventional war.*


read again jaani


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## Zarvan

arslank03 said:


> MRAPS= pretty useless in a *conventional war.*
> 
> 
> read again jaani


Even in them they are not. You can use modern day MRAP just like you can use wheeled APC to move your troops. In fact they can be quite useful if you think your enemy has laid mines in some areas.


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> We have lost 10000 soldiers in this war on terror. In fact more then that and double the amount has lost limbs. And no they are not useless. When ever they have been used inside Pakistan they have done the job and saved lives. In Quetta a suicide bomber hit Police MRAP when it was raiding a house in Quetta all inside survived. Just recently an IED attack took place on one MRAP. Again all inside survived. So no they are quite effective.


You can get a certain type of weapon but its deployment in combat effectively is where the practicality of that weapon lies. Bushmaster is a MRAP which is used for mobility of infantry, as such can be made operational in regular formations of military and police. 

The IED threat has to be tackled with counter measures and operational strategy, not just a MRAP. The losses of MRAPs even though saving soldier's lives is still not productive. The deployment of IEDs against friendly forces has to cease. The material used for making IEDs has to be made scarce in open market. Checks and balances on movement is paramount. Deployment of police/soldiers on pickets and movement of convoys has to be -re-assessed. Cohesion between MOI and GHQ as well as other stakeholders has to be practical. C-IED devices have to be made common in formations for use.

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## Great Janjua

Signalian said:


> You can get a certain type of weapon but its deployment in combat effectively is where the practicality of that weapon lies. Bushmaster is a MRAP which is used for mobility of infantry, as such can be made operational in regular formations of military and police.
> 
> The IED threat has to be tackled with counter measures and operational strategy, not just a MRAP. The losses of MRAPs even though saving soldier's lives is still not productive. The deployment of IEDs against friendly forces has to cease. The material used for making IEDs has to be made scarce in open market. Checks and balances on movement is paramount. Deployment of police/soldiers on pickets and movement of convoys has to be -re-assessed. Cohesion between MOI and GHQ as well as other stakeholders has to be practical. C-IED devices have to be made common in formations for use.


Agreed but for the short time we need MRAPs for the long term we can gradually decline the capacity of Ts, saving lives should be the top priority at this rate of attrition we will lose experienced men without a dime and a nickel left.

@Zarvan

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## Aamir Hussain

In short Aerial Surveillance/armed drones (Convoys are baits--use them and lure the terr in to the open), Digital mapping of terrain around highways/roadways and compare them with videos taken routinely to see what has been disturbed on the ground--this is done through computers) , MRAPS equipped with jammers (A must, it saps the morale of the soldier to fight in open topped vehicles and they tend to disengage the moment they are in a fire zone), and QRF Helo support.

Bottom line is keep the morale up of the soldiers, go on offensive through aerial support, and helo borne QRF should deliver the punch. The men on the ground if they know support is available at their call then they will stand and fight. Right now in most ambush engagements, terr. have the upper hand and our jawan literally get butchered. Alone on a desolate mountain pass with vehicle disabled by an IED or an RPG and half of your team already picked off one by one in an open topped vehicle..... with surrounding mountains peppered with terr raining hot lead,..... not many will stand and fight.

My 2c worth

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## Rana4pak

*Take this with tot and make 8*8 in-house




*

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## Signalian

Aamir Hussain said:


> In short Aerial Surveillance/armed drones (Convoys are baits--use them and lure the terr in to the open), Digital mapping of terrain around highways/roadways and compare them with videos taken routinely to see what has been disturbed on the ground--this is done through computers) , MRAPS equipped with jammers (A must, it saps the morale of the soldier to fight in open topped vehicles and they tend to disengage the moment they are in a fire zone), and QRF Helo support.
> 
> Bottom line is keep the morale up of the soldiers, go on offensive through aerial support, and helo borne QRF should deliver the punch. The men on the ground if they know support is available at their call then they will stand and fight. Right now in most ambush engagements, terr. have the upper hand and our jawan literally get butchered. Alone on a desolate mountain pass with vehicle disabled by an IED or an RPG and half of your team already picked off one by one in an open topped vehicle..... with surrounding mountains peppered with terr raining hot lead,..... not many will stand and fight.
> 
> My 2c worth


Those are some effective and practical points 

I also advocate helo borne QRF especially the vastness of Baluchistan and the vulnerability of FC posts spread out there.

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## Zarvan

Great Janjua said:


> Agreed but for the short time we need MRAPs for the long term we can gradually decline the capacity of Ts, saving lives should be the top priority at this rate of attrition we will lose experienced men without a dime and a nickel left.
> 
> @Zarvan


We always need MRAP even those countries which hardly see suicide or IED attacks have MRAP for their Police and Armed Forces. In any police assault operation whether it's against robbers or some murderer they should travel in MRAP I mean SWAT or assault team so does Army. That is why you need two or three different type of MRAP of different sizes.

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## emotionless_teenage

arslank03 said:


> MRAPS= pretty useless in a conventional war.
> 
> Do remember, our primary threat is India, hence the procurement focus being things to use against them.


So what you're trying to say? Let's not have MRAP? Let those people who fought against Taliban and TTP to needlessly die because MRAP is useless against India?


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## arslank03

emotionless_teenage said:


> So what you're trying to say? Let's not have MRAP? Let those people who fought against Taliban and TTP to needlessly die because MRAP is useless against India?




"*hence the procurement focus being things to use against them.*"


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## Sifar zero

Zarvan said:


> We always need MRAP even those countries which hardly see suicide or IED attacks have MRAP for their Police and Armed Forces. In any police assault operation whether it's against robbers or some murderer they should travel in MRAP I mean SWAT or assault team so does Army. That is why you need two or three different type of MRAP of different sizes.


I am aware of a stop gap program against IED's RCIED's to be exact a large numbers of jammers were bought from NRTC and I have seen them on almost every vehicle in Waziristan and some in Balochistan. In fact there are man portable jammers in use some handheld some not. But in the end I hope we get some MRAPS since I also have the same enthusiasm as you for them.

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## Signalian

Sifar zero said:


> I am aware of stop gap program against IED's RCIED's to be exact a large numbers of jammers were bought from NRTC and I have seen them on almost every vehicle in Waziristan and some in Balochistan. In fact there are man portable jammers in use some handheld some not. But in the end I hope we get some MRAPS since I also have the same enthusiasm as you for them.


In use by Engineers or infantry battalions?


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## Sifar zero

Signalian said:


> In use by Engineers or infantry battalions?


Infantry.


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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> I am aware of a stop gap program against IED's RCIED's to be exact a large numbers of jammers were bought from NRTC and I have seen them on almost every vehicle in Waziristan and some in Balochistan. In fact there are man portable jammers in use some handheld some not. But in the end I hope we get some MRAPS since I also have the same enthusiasm as you for them.


see this post


Blast reported in North Waziristan while a convoy was passing through. | Aug 2022 .

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> see this post
> 
> 
> Blast reported in North Waziristan while a convoy was passing through. | Aug 2022 .


So any update you have regarding MRAPS or armoured vehicles??

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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> So any update you have regarding MRAPS or armoured vehicles??


No idea , but cavalier group 6x6 MCV was trialed this year , (8x8 was rejected years ago) , if it meets PA standards we will see orders. Which seems to be the case as the Cavalier group made several modifications to it after possibly user trials.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551973596238839808

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> (8x8 was rejected years ago)


Any idea what were the shortcomings .... ???

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## iLION12345_1

HRK said:


> Any idea what were the shortcomings .... ???


The armor protection was less than what was stated iirc.

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## Sifar zero

Why doesn't FC get the HIT Interceptor as Light Armoured Vehicle to Replace and complement the Hilux??
@PanzerKiel

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## Great Janjua

Sifar zero said:


> Why doesn't FC get the HIT Interceptor as Light Armoured Vehicle to Replace and complement the Hilux??
> @PanzerKiel


HIT interceptor isn't made for preventing IEDs but rather ambushes by small calibre weapons. What the army needs are something like the Hamza MCV by the Cavalier group.

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## Sifar zero

Great Janjua said:


> HIT interceptor isn't made for preventing IEDs but rather ambushes by small calibre weapons. What the army needs are something like the Hamza MCV by the Cavalier group.


I know they are made for small arms protection only but they could be fitted with jammers for countering IED's and money wouldn't be a problem.

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## Great Janjua

Sifar zero said:


> I know they are made for small arms protection only but they could be fitted with jammers for countering IED's and money wouldn't be a problem.


Well jammers aren't a miracle drug so to speak what we need is MRAPs it would be far cheaper and reasonable to acquire MRAPs than buy something like the HIT Interceptor and then adding jammers to it.

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## farooqbhai007

Hamza 6x6 mcv is likely going to be dual role for both coin ops and combat with India ops since it can withstand 14.5mm with normal armour package. While additional armour package is offered to either protection level from 20mm rounds or to place a RPG net around vehicle. I think we will see it in service soon. IDEAS is just around the corner and we will get to know more about it.



Great Janjua said:


> Well jammers aren't a miracle drug so to speak what we need is MRAPs it would be far cheaper and reasonable to acquire MRAPs than buy something like the HIT Interceptor and then adding jammers to it.


Yea no , Mraps are meant to protect the individuals inside from a mine or ied hidden road side. In pakistani experience these are remote controlled in 90% cases or are either mines. So jammers do save against these. However what a jammer doesn't save against and what cause the most casualties are VBIED or People wearing suicide vests.
A mrap doesnt provide protection against these either since in most cases the explosion happens and effects the side of the mrap which only has armour levels the same as HIT interceptor. 

However I am all in for PA acquiring Cobra vehicle family (standard chassis as well as mrap chassis variant ) for the LAVA program which is long due now and supplementing with heavier indigenous mraps.

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> Hamza 6x6 mcv is likely going to be dual role for both coin ops and combat with India ops since it can withstand 14.5mm with normal armour package. While additional armour package is offered to either protection level from 20mm rounds or to place a RPG net around vehicle. I think we will see it in service soon. IDEAS is just around the corner and we will get to know more about it.
> 
> 
> Yea no , Mraps are meant to protect the individuals inside from a mine or ied hidden road side. In pakistani experience these are remote controlled in 90% cases or are either mines. So jammers do save against these. However what a jammer doesn't save against and what cause the most casualties are VBIED or People wearing suicide vests.
> A mrap doesnt provide protection against these either since in most cases the explosion happens and effects the side of the mrap which only has armour levels the same as HIT interceptor.
> 
> However I am all in for PA acquiring Cobra vehicle family (standard chassis as well as mrap chassis variant ) for the LAVA program which is long due now and supplementing with heavier indigenous mraps.


Cobra vehicle??
You mean Otokar Cobra.

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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> Cobra vehicle??
> You mean Otokar Cobra.


yes Cobra 2 Family (Standard chassis & mrap chassis ) , they have medevac , command & recovery variants for the Cobra 2.

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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> Why doesn't FC get the HIT Interceptor as Light Armoured Vehicle to Replace and complement the Hilux??
> @PanzerKiel


Again, whatever the FC gets or want to get, the MoI has to approve and process. Despite being army officers posted in FC, to move a simple file in MoI is a big hassle...red tape etc......MoI doesnt respond well to army officers....

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> Again, whatever the FC gets or want to get, the MoI has to approve and process. Despite being army officers posted in FC, to move a simple file in MoI is a big hassle...red tape etc......MoI doesnt respond well to army officers....


Said it a million times already but everybody on PDF has served in FC, MOI and Army already so their minds are made up.

Btw, there should be practical comparison between 12.7 mm, 20/25 mm and 30 mm cannon's effectiveness and targets.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 755459
> 
> Evaluation of BTR 4E ex Ukraine have started for subsequent deployment in FATA and Balochistan.


What happened to this program??
@PanzerKiel

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## Sifar zero

Tipu7 said:


> 320+.
> More American MRAPS from Afghanistan are on agenda.


Have they been delivered??


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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> Have they been delivered??


 300+ mix of maxx pros , lenco variants & M113s from ANA stocks.

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> 300+ mix of maxx pros , lenco variants & M113s from ANA stocks.


Going to MOI or Army ?

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## farooqbhai007

Signalian said:


> Going to MOI or Army ?


Army

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> 300+ mix of maxx pros , lenco variants & M113s from ANA stocks.


What's your source bro?

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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> What's your source bro?


come in dm here or on twitter @farooqB90714421 my account

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> come in dm here or on twitter @farooqB90714421 my account


How to dm you here since I don't have a Twitter account.

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## Super Falcon

must get these vehicles for SSG currently using predator sov which don't have any bullet proof protection


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## Signalian

Super Falcon said:


> must get these vehicles for SSG currently using predator sov which don't have any bullet proof protection


Good enough for terrain in baluchistan

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## Super Falcon

Signalian said:


> Good enough for terrain in baluchistan


Yes for that matter Punjab and kpk too

We can utilize them for short range air defence system by mounting Anza or RBS 79 due to their small size they are easy to blend in the environment and hard to be tracked and seen


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## Inception-06



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## Sifar zero

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873629


Please elaborate bro.


----------



## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873629


Appears to be mass scale armoring of hilux


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562869614887206913

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## Inception-06

farooqbhai007 said:


> Appears to be mass scale armoring of hilux
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562869614887206913



Yes in the Past some models were Presented of the Hilux.



farooqbhai007 said:


> Appears to be mass scale armoring of hilux
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562869614887206913



It’s called Discrete Armouring …see the board in backround with many Details.


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## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> Yes in the Past some models were Presented of the Hilux.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s called Discredited Armouring …see the board in backround with many Details.
> View attachment 873636


Yes and another similar version with 4 door cab was also shown a while back.

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> Yes in the Past some models were Presented of the Hilux.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s called Discredited Armouring …see the board in backround with many Details.
> View attachment 873636


I’ve seen these armored hiluxs and land cruisers in depth. Even one taken apart into pieces. Crew Compartment protection is acceptable against small arms. Will not survive an IED at all. Engine compartment doesn’t have enough protection, only protected from the front, no protection on the hood and fenders. Still a good step up compared to unarmored vehicles, but only if soldiers get to ride in this and not just high ranking officers. Overall still not a good use of funds, would rather invest in smaller number of proper armored vehicles.

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yes and another similar version with 4 door cab was also shown a while back.


Pictures??
Does it have B6 or B7 armour??


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## musti

Why Pakistan and Indian army immitate British dressing and officier sticks ?


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## Signalian

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’ve seen these armored hiluxs and land cruisers in depth. Even one taken apart into pieces. Crew Compartment protection is acceptable against small arms. Will not survive an IED at all. Engine compartment doesn’t have enough protection, only protected from the front, no protection on the hood and fenders. Still a good step up compared to unarmored vehicles, but only if soldiers get to ride in this and not just high ranking officers. Overall still not a good use of funds, would rather invest in smaller number of proper armored vehicles.


You just breathed a new life into the PDF's MRAP Brigade, they should recommend you are their Brig Comd as Ulla was bringing it down for them by showing work done on up armoring Hilux's

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## SaadH

musti said:


> Why Pakistan and Indian army immitate British dressing and officier sticks ?


Because they are the most loyal native colonial armies to this day


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## Signalian

musti said:


> Why Pakistan and Indian army immitate British dressing and officier sticks ?


Tradition and history of regiments they served in.

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## Inception-06

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yes and another similar version with 4 door cab was also shown a while back.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873747
> View attachment 873748


He does check details.


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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> He does check details.



@farooqbhai007 



What are this two newbies ?







Signalian said:


> He does check details.



He checks the firing ports.

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## Great Janjua

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873747
> View attachment 873748


What's the point of keeping them in HIT factories when soldiers are getting ambushed it's all PR ploys by HIT to fill pockets. The picture you posted is quite old abhi tak to 1 vehicle rollout kar dete.

By the looks of things the local armouring solution was a flop you can say pocket-filling tactic now HIT is doing its usual running to foreign providers for TOT like Jankel for Armoured Cabin for Hilux the whole institution is rotten Allah Garke kare.


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## farooqbhai007

Great Janjua said:


> What's the point of keeping them in HIT factories when soldiers are getting ambushed it's all PR ploys by HIT to fill pockets. The picture you posted is quite old abhi tak to 1 vehicle rollout kar dete.
> 
> By the looks of things the local armouring solution was a flop you can say pocket-filling tactic now HIT is doing its usual running to foreign providers for TOT like Jankel for Armoured Cabin for Hilux the whole institution is rotten Allah Garke kare.


do you ever have any thing positive to say ? its you my friend who is rotten to the core not the institutions.




these are the same vehicles as above one in inecption06's post in which bajwa is inspecting. 

*The Hilux has 2 door armoured cab with the troop compartment in the back being armoured on 3 sides with firing ports while there there is no armour on the back side for rapid troop dispersal of the vehicle.*




*2 more vehicles in the back undergoing the same upgrade , thought i'd post this since u cant see anything except criticism.*



this is same type of armour upgrade hilux as above images which has gone through combat with infantry units and not officers.




*If you bother zooming in which you obviously cant , cause all your posts are just rants & criticism against PA instead of looking at the minor details you'd see that there is a image of the vehicle in use in balochistan ops as well , which is likely from where the above combat proven example came under fire. *

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## farooqbhai007

Great Janjua said:


> What's the point of keeping them in HIT factories when soldiers are getting ambushed it's all PR ploys by HIT to fill pockets. The picture you posted is quite old abhi tak to 1 vehicle rollout kar dete.
> 
> By the looks of things the local armouring solution was a flop you can say pocket-filling tactic now HIT is doing its usual running to foreign providers for TOT like Jankel for Armoured Cabin for Hilux the whole institution is rotten Allah Garke kare.


now coming to the Jankel part , incase you had done any research which you obviously havent and the only info you have of HIT's connection with jankel is likely a tweet you might have seen in the past which said that HIT had license to make jankel vehicles. 
But no sir you didnt do any research otherwise you would known that HIT had acquired a license to make discrete armoring from jankel of LC200 (model 2012) land cruisers which stopped production in 2016 since which a face lift model of LC200 was sold in 2017. So obviously HIT acquired license from jankel way before 2017 or so. But no saar whole institution is rotten to the core.

Now if you want some facts on which 4x4 APCs HIT is currently making i will tell you those ,
Mohafiz-3 (LC79 based)
Mohafiz-4 (Interceptor , License acquired from cavalier)
Cougar ( License acquired from Streit )

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## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> @farooqbhai007
> View attachment 873870
> What are this two newbies ?
> View attachment 873871
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He checks the firing ports.


1st looks interesting , 2nd is a PA Puma 6x6 , HIT has been refitting them with better protected turrets. 
Apart from this HIT received order for 2nd batch of Cougar APC from local customer (10+ vehicles) , first batch of unknown number of Cougar APC was delivered to SSU Sindh in 2019 or so.

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> do you ever have any thing positive to say ? its you my friend who is rotten to the core not the institutions.
> View attachment 873928
> 
> these are the same vehicles as above one in inecption06's post in which bajwa is inspecting.
> 
> *The Hilux has 2 door armoured cab with the troop compartment in the back being armoured on 3 sides with firing ports while there there is no armour on the back side for rapid troop dispersal of the vehicle.*
> View attachment 873932
> 
> *2 more vehicles in the back undergoing the same upgrade , thought i'd post this since u cant see anything except criticism.*
> View attachment 873933
> this is same type of armour upgrade hilux as above images which has gone through combat with infantry units and not officers.
> View attachment 873935
> 
> *If you bother zooming in which you obviously cant , cause all your posts are just rants & criticism against PA instead of looking at the minor details you'd see that there is a image of the vehicle in use in balochistan ops as well , which is likely from where the above combat proven example came under fire. *


Mate we know how long the chooran is being fed some projects were started towards the end of 2019 which included armour panelling for occupants at the back its 2022 and still the same shithole Hiluxes are there. Criticism is justified if lives are thrown away like its some ritual then yes criticism will be there but frankly, I didn't expect the butthurt reaction from a member like you the fact of the matter is some institutions inside the armed forces are rotten to the core and there are no two ways about it.

I guess people like you just take the martyr tag to the face and the usual hands-over-face motion and everything is suddenly honky dory your getting orgasm over PR pics which frankly won't even make it down to the average folk not sooner than death itself.

Not everything comes across as it is exhibited and you talk about going into detail ahh you sure do know how to make someone laugh if I were to go into detail you will shit yourself broad day.

So ill keep myself ranting and you can do God's work since you are the manifestation of Gabriel himself.

I'll see you when the next Hilux is shot to shite.



farooqbhai007 said:


> now coming to the Jankel part , incase you had done any research which you obviously havent and the only info you have of HIT's connection with jankel is likely a tweet you might have seen in the past which said that HIT had license to make jankel vehicles.
> But no sir you didnt do any research otherwise you would known that HIT had acquired a license to make discrete armoring from jankel of LC200 (model 2012) land cruisers which stopped production in 2016 since which a face lift model of LC200 was sold in 2017. So obviously HIT acquired license from jankel way before 2017 or so. But no saar whole institution is rotten to the core.
> 
> Now if you want some facts on which 4x4 APCs HIT is currently making i will tell you those ,
> Mohafiz-3 (LC79 based)
> Mohafiz-4 (Interceptor , License acquired from cavalier)
> Cougar ( License acquired from Streit )


I am full aware of what HIT makes and what Jankel produces I don't need you to point that out what matters is ground realities haven't you heard of the phrase "Actions talk bullshit walks" this is not a google search competition we are not walking around with hollow heads we know what the soldiers ride in and get shot to shit in its been happening since 2016.


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563941101861478403


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## farooqbhai007

Raja Porus said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563941101861478403


already posted way before the video was even posted on twitter in HIT-Armoured vehicle thread , check that

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564276304450822147looks like 300 CSK-181/182 variants delivered.


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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564276304450822147looks like 300 CSK-181/182 variants delivered.


All for SH 15??
Or some are to be used elsewhere??


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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> All for SH 15??
> Or some are to be used elsewhere??


none for SH15 i think , SH15 package was different one

@PanzerKiel can u please elaborate if they are for sh15 or not

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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> none for SH15 i think , SH15 package was different one
> 
> @PanzerKiel can u please elaborate if they are for sh15 or not


How many kg's of explosives can it handle??


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## farooqbhai007



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## Sifar zero

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 879862


What's its protection level??

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## Inception-06

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 879862



From where Troops can fire the Machine gun ?


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## CLUMSY

God i wish we had IFVs or any transport vehicle with an armored turret capable of throwing down heavy fire to cover infantry. APCs are useful and all but troops deserve better.



farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 879862


Not good enough imo. It needs a place to mount a mg for retaliation. Maybe some frontal armor and a beefy bumper too. Still going to be flaming box when hit by an IED

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574789530246385667

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## Path-Finder

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574789530246385667


WTH


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## Raja Porus

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574789530246385667


Thank God, quite a few mothers were saved from Grief. 
See, everything doesn't have to be fancy to work

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574789530246385667


Whoever came up with that idea of Armour plating Allah will give Ajarh God bless.

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## Signalian

Raja Porus said:


> Thank God, quite a few mothers were saved from Grief.
> See, everything doesn't have to be fancy to work





Great Janjua said:


> Whoever came up with that idea of Armour plating Allah will give Ajarh God bless.


A step ahead would be gun trucks.

The armor plating was also used on Hilux's but the weight problem was there.

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## Great Janjua

Signalian said:


> A step ahead would be gun trucks.
> 
> The armor plating was also used on Hilux's but the weight problem was there.


At least it works but keeping in mind TTP is evolving it will instantly change over to IEDs to undermine the armour plating to negate such planning we should also introduce MRAPs in such areas demoralise them further if you want the upper hand.


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## Jango

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574789530246385667



Surprisingly, or rather thankfully, even the non armored part held up quite well.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593973589992435713
Finally, after losing thousands of soldiers to IED, grenade and even gun attacks. Pakistan Army decides to wake up and now all of sudden these huge beasts work in our terrains also.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593969295280996353

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## Great Janjua

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593973589992435713
> Finally, after losing thousands of soldiers to IED, grenade and even gun attacks. Pakistan Army decides to wake up and now all of sudden these huge beasts work in our terrains also.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593969295280996353


1000 thousand lives late what a joke this country is. Lanat.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599443522699988993

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599449441328857088

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599449441328857088


It should be worth discussing if "flag marches" are an effective method of show of force and which vehicles should be part of the flag march.


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## Sayfullah

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599449441328857088









Do these vehicles also have armour plates or is it just design?


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## farooqbhai007

Sayfullah said:


> View attachment 902950
> 
> 
> Do these vehicles also have armour plates or is it just design?


Design

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