# How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?



## Myth_buster_1

How much of Pakistani culture is Indian? 

From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.

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## Edevelop

If Pakistan gets sanctions from the West and gets the chance to block Indian channels, it will be the best thing that can happen.

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## Icewolf

New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.

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## RazPaK

Myth_buster_1 said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.



The Indians are completely accomplice to globalism. While some people in cities make you feel that Indian culture is dominant, the truth is most Pakistanis do not give importance to bollywood/indians.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.



Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.

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## Edevelop

Myth_buster_1 said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.



i have visited North African countries and there people too have involved themselves with this Indian crap. Something needs to be done fast to stop it growing. Already, this influence has caused most of the world to think that India and Pakistan to be the same. I say shoot the bas**ds that go to India for film shoot!

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## Thorough Pro

You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.

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## RISING SUN

Unity gives strength. India is united but not united. When you will understand this line,you will know what I mean. When we say Hindustani culture,it does not mean Indians culture. It means culture of Indian sub continent which include India,Pakistan,Sri lanka, Maldives,Myanmar,Bangladesh,Nepal,Bhutan,Afghanistan. Culture is not a thing which you can grow in short span of time. It is evolving process including interaction among many civilizations.

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## Edevelop

Here is today's news. 

*Pakistan Air Force owned cinema hall shuts after ban on Indian films*

Lahore: A cinema hall owned by Pakistan Air Force in this eastern city has been closed by its private management after officials imposed a ban on screening Indian movies earlier this month.

The PAF officials singled out Indian films for a ban though Bollywood productions are being screened across Pakistan, including in two other cinema halls within Lahore Cantonment, sources said.

The PAF has been leasing the management of its cinema to private parties through annual contracts. The current private management took over the hall more than two years ago and spent around Rs 20 million on its renovation, an official said.

On September 6, which is observed as Defence Day in Pakistan to commemorate those killed in the 1965 war with India, the PAF ordered the private management to immediately stop screening Indian films.

"You are hereby directed to stop screening of Indian films in the PAF Cinema, Lahore, with immediate effect," the order said.

The private management of the cinema hall said it suffered huge financial losses after a ban was imposed on screening Indian films. Nadir Latif, an official of the management, said the hall had been closed since September 7.

Latif said when the ban was imposed, "Raaz 3" was being screened at the hall. "Barfi!" was next in line to be screened, followed by "Heroine". 

"I have had to bear losses running into millions of rupees for not being allowed to show these movies," he said.

"Practically speaking, the PAF has closed the cinema and it should now give us compensation," he argued.

Latif has also approached PAF officials, seeking a relaxation of the ban. His case is based on the stated difference between an "Indian film" and a "foreign film of non-Indian" origin.

According to the current policy, movies starring Indian actors may not be treated as "Indian products" but simply as foreign films.

Such foreign films are routinely imported from Dubai. "Raaz 3" was cleared by censors in Punjab province as a product of Britain.

Latif said he attached a letter of the Punjab Censor Board with documents that he submitted to PAF authorities. 

The letter read: "You are humbly informed that... Punjab Film Censor Board has been screening foreign produced films (sic), all of films are imported from Dubai, either English feature films or Urdu feature films. These are taken as foreign films.
Punjab Films Censor Board has never screened any film imported from India or has never issued Censor Certificate to Indian films."

Pakistan Air Force owned cinema hall shuts after ban on Indian films

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## Arya Desa

Such hateful people you are loathing thy neighbour. If you don't like our films, ban them, don't like our marriage ceremonies, forbide them, etc. But they must you say they are inferior? Why must you call it crap? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. Grow out of this elementary thinking.

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## RISING SUN

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.



Google Image Result for http://indianhistory.info/pp.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Civilt%C3%A0ValleIndoMappa.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IVC_Map.png


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## Bhairava

A very thought provoking and timely question.





Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. *The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC*, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.



No it did not. There is hardly anything similar to the IVC and the latter day civilizations. Its like claiming all mammals came from dinosaur.

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## RISING SUN

Now what do you say? We never claimed that it or any other civilization is ours. Civilization means civilized people & civilized people don't fight for claims,they cooperate & co-exist.

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## RISING SUN

The Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilization (3300&#8211;1300 BCE; mature period 2600&#8211;1900 BCE) that was located in the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent, consisting of what is now mainly present-day Pakistan and northwest India. Flourishing around the Indus River basin, the civilization extended east into the Ghaggar-Hakra River valley and the upper reaches Ganges-Yamuna Doab; it extended west to the Makran coast of Balochistan, north to northeastern Afghanistan and south to Daimabad in Maharashtra. The civilization was spread over some 1,260,000 km², making it the largest ancient civilization. The Indus Valley is one of the world's earliest urban civilizations, along with its contemporaries, Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt. At its peak, the Indus Civilization may have had a population of well over five million.


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## Edevelop

@ Indians: Go to this thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/20619-indus-valley-civilization-pakistan.html

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## illusion8

These people are shrieking like r@ped victims, FYI you were not r@ped - you willingly gave in and let our culture enter.
No one forced their culture on you - you adopted our culture yourself.

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## future_bound

The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but there are hardly any hindus left in that land now


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## Myth_buster_1

Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.



do you get it that we are living in 2012 not 3000-4000 BC!

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## takeiteasy

if you believe India's cultural influence on Pakistan is despisable, why not ban India's Television channels as well as other cultural similarities. IMO, URDU language is the reason why Pakistanis are interested in India. why not encourage another language which can help Pakistani people from India's influence. like....FARSI. 

but, We are not(atleast a minority) really happy that North Indian culture spreads in Pakistan.

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## Myth_buster_1

RazPaK said:


> The Indians are completely accomplice to globalism. While some people in cities make you feel that Indian culture is dominant, the truth is most Pakistanis do not give importance to bollywood/indians.



Rural areas yes urban areas NO.

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## Bhairava

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



Yes, and you have bigger hearts too...

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## dollarman

future_bound said:


> The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but there are hardly any hindus left in that land now



Indians are going to be proud of IVC whether you guys want it or not, as that is one of the many building blocks of South Asian INDIGINEOUS civilization, something that India prides itself on being based on, much like the Ganga/Yamunas/Chola/ Gandharas/Vedic/Mauryas etc. These Pakistanis were getting slaughtered by Arabs and converted to Islam to save their sorry a*ses, and now they are telling us $hit. Since Pakistanis abandoned their civilization in fear, someone had to make sure that the indigenous South Asian civilizations flourished, and you guys have India to thank for that 

There is nothing indigenous about Pakistani culture, like come one you guys are Muslim, enough said. At one point in time you imported your culture of Islam from Arabia, nowadays, you guys are importing Bollywood culture from India...

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## Myth_buster_1

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



hahaha, you think so buddy. Their wont be such thing as "Pakistani Muslim culture" because we are heading towards "open minded" civilization in which Indian/western culture will be imitated.


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## punit

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



looool this post shows the Open mindness and forwardness of pakistanis .good job

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## Myth_buster_1

dollarman said:


> Indians are going to be proud of IVC whether you guys want it or not, as that is one of the many building blocks of South Asian INDIGINEOUS civilization, something that India prides itself on being based on, much like the Ganga/Yamunas/Chola/ Gandharas/Vedic/Mauryas etc. These Pakistanis were getting slaughtered by Arabs and converted to Islam to save their sorry a*ses, and now they are telling us $hit. Since Pakistanis abandoned their civilization in fear, someone had to make sure that the indigenous South Asian civilizations flourished, and you guys have India to thank for that
> 
> There is nothing indigenous about Pakistani culture, like come one you guys are Muslim, enough said. At one point in time you imported your culture of Islam from Arabia, nowadays, you guys are importing Bollywood culture from India...



We are glad that our ancestors changed their religion to Islam and I am proud Muslim and thank your ALLAH i do not belong to your religion.

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## future_bound

dollarman said:


> Indians are going to be proud of IVC whether you guys want it or not, as that is one of the many building blocks of South Asian INDIGINEOUS civilization, something that India prides itself on being based on, much like the Ganga/Yamunas/Chola/ Gandharas/Vedic/Mauryas etc. These Pakistanis were getting slaughtered by Arabs and converted to Islam to save their sorry a*ses, and now they are telling us $hit. Since Pakistanis abandoned their civilization in fear, someone had to make sure that the indigenous South Asian civilizations flourished, and you guys have India to thank for that
> 
> There is nothing indigenous about Pakistani culture, like come one you guys are Muslim, enough said. At one point in time you imported your culture of Islam from Arabia, nowadays, you guys are importing Bollywood culture from India...



Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.

Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan. 

It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!

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## Don Jaguar

cb4 said:


> Here is today's news.
> 
> *Pakistan Air Force owned cinema hall shuts after ban on Indian films*
> 
> Lahore: A cinema hall owned by Pakistan Air Force in this eastern city has been closed by its private management after officials imposed a ban on screening Indian movies earlier this month.
> 
> The PAF officials singled out Indian films for a ban though Bollywood productions are being screened across Pakistan, including in two other cinema halls within Lahore Cantonment, sources said.
> 
> The PAF has been leasing the management of its cinema to private parties through annual contracts. The current private management took over the hall more than two years ago and spent around Rs 20 million on its renovation, an official said.
> 
> On September 6, which is observed as Defence Day in Pakistan to commemorate those killed in the 1965 war with India, the PAF ordered the private management to immediately stop screening Indian films.
> 
> "You are hereby directed to stop screening of Indian films in the PAF Cinema, Lahore, with immediate effect," the order said.
> 
> The private management of the cinema hall said it suffered huge financial losses after a ban was imposed on screening Indian films. Nadir Latif, an official of the management, said the hall had been closed since September 7.
> 
> Latif said when the ban was imposed, "Raaz 3" was being screened at the hall. "Barfi!" was next in line to be screened, followed by "Heroine".
> 
> "I have had to bear losses running into millions of rupees for not being allowed to show these movies," he said.
> 
> "Practically speaking, the PAF has closed the cinema and it should now give us compensation," he argued.
> 
> Latif has also approached PAF officials, seeking a relaxation of the ban. His case is based on the stated difference between an "Indian film" and a "foreign film of non-Indian" origin.
> 
> According to the current policy, movies starring Indian actors may not be treated as "Indian products" but simply as foreign films.
> 
> Such foreign films are routinely imported from Dubai. "Raaz 3" was cleared by censors in Punjab province as a product of Britain.
> 
> Latif said he attached a letter of the Punjab Censor Board with documents that he submitted to PAF authorities.
> 
> The letter read: "You are humbly informed that... Punjab Film Censor Board has been screening foreign produced films (sic), all of films are imported from Dubai, either English feature films or Urdu feature films. These are taken as foreign films.
> Punjab Films Censor Board has never screened any film imported from India or has never issued Censor Certificate to Indian films."
> 
> Pakistan Air Force owned cinema hall shuts after ban on Indian films



Come on dear many indians watch hollywood movies does that means their own culture is gone?

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## Don Jaguar

future_bound said:


> The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but there are hardly any hindus left in that land now



Yes you are right.







Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.

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## dollarman

future_bound said:


> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> *
> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and soon even they will all be muslimized the Rinkle Kumari way  or shipped out of the country. In a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!*



This is why the whole world calls Pakistan terrorists, because it is in your thinking. I really don't give a rat's *** as to Pakistan today, and couldn't care less if you identity-less fools decide to become 100% Muslim or Christian or Hindu.

P.S. If it makes you feel any better, your ancestors were also treated like Rinkle Kumari by the invaders...

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## illusion8

future_bound said:


> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> 
> *It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and soon even they will all be muslimized the Rinkle Kumari way  or shipped out of the country. In a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!*



 is that an achievement?? taking out your minorities is a sign of weakness, 98% can always kill 2%. and, I don't think its 2% it should be more like 1%.

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## Edevelop

Don Jaguar said:


> Come on dear many indians watch hollywood movies does that means their own culture is gone?



Yes it is slowly fading away. Compare old Indian movies with new Indian movies. I don't watch them, but i get the idea through trailers shown on tv or from people who are die hard fans...

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## Don Jaguar

dollarman said:


> P.S. If it makes you feel any better, your ancestors were also treated like Rinkle Kumari by the invaders...



Our ancestors didn't told us this, provide reason for that.

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## dollarman

Don Jaguar said:


> Yes you are right.
> 
> Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.



While it is true that Hinduism and Buddhism were the main religions practised by Pakistanis in the past, IVC does not have much to do with Hinduism. The Sanskrit Vedic Hidu texts were written during the Vedic Period. IVC had certain forms of non-Vedic Hinduism, especially the idol-worshipping aspects started in IVC. Hinduism is something that really flourished during the Vedic Period, when the Vedas were written in the Yamuna/Ganga banks, approximately 1000 years after the disappearance of IVC.

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## kumarkumar1867

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in *modern-day Pakistan*.



What the heck is mordern day Pakistan???

was there any thing called ancient Pakistan before 1947??

IVC was a culture followed by peoples following vedic religion.The mortal remains of which are burried in land which Pakistan accidently got due to TNT so they should stop dancing on the leftovers of vedic cultures as the soul the essence of vedism is deeply rooted in Indian Hindu culture.



Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.



Is there any copying?? As per standard norms original people are better than people who copy stuff. Right??
Lets have a check..... 
Can you enlighten us with Pakistani peoples knowledge of Sanskrit, the vedas , the pillars of hinduism?? I am sure you wont.

Thats because you lost & surrendered culture, religion & language of your ancestors/forefather to invaders,their swords & Jiziyas.(Though there was a peaceful conversion due to sufism but thats a very little parts of the population)

*Existence of Hinduism in Indian subcontinent after centuries of muslim rule is a proof that people with backbone & self respect exists here.*




cb4 said:


> i have visited North African countries and there people too have involved themselves with this Indian crap. *Something needs to be done fast to stop it growing*. Already, this influence has caused most of the world to think that India and Pakistan to be the same. I say shoot the bas**ds that go to India for film shoot!



Its Globalisation & Internet era man, its highly impossible to stop influence of other countries on ours. Best thing to counter is to make our influence strong than influence of other countries. Develop your Lollywood, TV drama industries to counter indian bollywood/ TV channels. If not ban indian TV channels, ban internet & *start living in a cave.*




Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



Culture is tradition which is followed for centuries, You are well educated to know that their was no Pakistan before a century, so no culture can be Pakistani as per definition.

Second Muslim & Islam thing originated in Saudi Arabia, your most important religious places mecca, kaaba & medina are still in middle east.. Pakistan has made no notable contribution to Islam except mass conversion of population/ increase in headcounts in past & terrorism in recent times... all you can claim is you are influenced by muslim culture/religion




Arya Desa said:


> Such hateful people you are loathing thy neighbour. If you don't like our films, ban them, don't like our marriage ceremonies, forbide them, etc. But they must you say they are inferior? Why must you call it crap? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. Grow out of this elementary thinking.



Chill down Bro...

Each one of the PDF warrior active in this thread have danced on bollywood track, wept & laughed seeing emotional & comedy bollywood films.

They love their culture like every individual dies but are loathing our culture because they cant stand/tolerate that their culture is so weak that it cant stand before our culture.

Jealousy or Frustration causes such hate.

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## dollarman

Don Jaguar said:


> Our ancestors didn't told us this, provide reason for that.



The same way Rinkle Kumari's grandchildren are not going to know that her Hindu mother was kidnapped, raped and forcefully converted to Islam.

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## ALOK31

there is no pakistani culture alive today they fallow arab and middile east culture .

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## RazPaK

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Rural areas yes urban areas NO.



Negative. I have no problem traveling to your ancestral village either.


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## kumarkumar1867

future_bound said:


> The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but *there are hardly any hindus left in that land now*



Yeah... Your forefathers & ancestors were killed for being hindu so the remaining hindus either sacrificed their self respect & converted to islam to form *proud people* like you or fled & settled to other far flung parts without loosing their religion & self respect.

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## RazPaK

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yeah... Your forefathers & ancestors were killed for being hindu so the remaining hindus either sacrificed their self respect & converted to islam to form *proud people* like you or fled & settled to other far flung parts without loosing their religion & self respect.




Your hindu bias leads people to believe that you are a moron. Many of us were never hindu. Can you generalize your statement for them?

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## Yogi

future_bound said:


> The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but there are hardly any hindus left in that land now



Civilizations r about people n culture not land u idiot all thats left for u is ruins of an ancient civilization on ur land 

Go get some life u moron...

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## Don Jaguar

dollarman said:


> The same way Rinkle Kumari's grandchildren are not going to know that her Hindu mother was kidnapped, raped and forcefully converted to Islam.



How do you know the future?


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## Don Jaguar

ALOK31 said:


> there is no pakistani culture alive today they fallow arab and middile east culture .



Arab culture is completely different.

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## Yogi

RazPaK said:


> Your hindu bias leads people to believe that you are a moron. Many of us were never hindu. Can you generalize your statement for them?



Yes Definitely entire Pakistan n its heavenly peace loving people just came on earth from Mars on the eve of 14th Aug 1947....

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## RazPaK

Hindus are ignorant of Islam. Thus they have to supplement their agendas.

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## Don Jaguar

There is one major problem about indians.

They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.

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## future_bound

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yeah... Your forefathers & ancestors were killed for being hindu so the remaining hindus either sacrificed their self respect & converted to islam to form *proud people* like you or fled & settled to other far flung parts without loosing their religion & self respect.



There is very little historical evidence to support your assertion that Islam was spread by force in the sub-continent. If the Mughals wanted, they could have converted every single hindu to islam by force and they had almost 800 years to accomplish that but they did not.

And what has converting to a different religion got to do with sacrificing self respect?? The ancestors of not only all muslims but also all european christians were once pagans like hindus as far back as 2,000 years ago. Did all the europeans lose self respect by converting to Christianity?

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## kumarkumar1867

future_bound said:


> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!



Pathetic & Shameful Thinking....
If this are your views about minorities in Pakistan dreamt by Jinnah, then no wonder why Pakistan is in mess today.

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## Don Jaguar

RazPaK said:


> Hindus are ignorant of Islam. Thus they have to supplement their agendas.



Well said very very ignorant, they don't know its basics that's why they are confused.

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## Android

North India and Pakistan have vast cultural similarities infact north indian culture is much more similar to pakastani culture than south indian culture

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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> Your hindu bias leads people to believe that you are a moron. Many of us were never hindu. Can you generalize your statement for them?



You are right if are you a pure (which is highly impossible) descendant of Arab or Yemeni settled in Pakistan. 

I am talking about majority pakistani here not special morons like you who take moronic responsibility of answering every comment or poking nose in stuff not related to them .

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## RazPaK

Voldemort said:


> North India and Pakistan have vast cultural similarities infact north indian culture is much more similar to pakastani culture than south indian culture



But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.

You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.


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## Android

RazPaK said:


> But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.
> 
> You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.



i said cultural similarities not religious and i dont get why some idiots decided to bring religion into this thread and i dont think we are same but some cultural similarities are surely present

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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> How do you know the future?



Commonsense comes with good education.



Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.



No we dont think so... 
There was peaceful conversion through sufis & saints but that happened during rule of moghuls where as sizeable people were converted by sword or fear of jiziya long before that in north western & western parts of ancient India.

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## Yogi

i don't get it if Pakistani culture is so great than why r most Pakistani so much attracted towards Indian culture

I mean nobody is forcing u guys to watch our movies or follow or cultural practices...

Even after 1965 when Indian movies were banned people watched them through pirated DVDs...lolz........

Its bcoz most of Pakistanis outside PDF do genuinely like it.....

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## RazPaK

Voldemort said:


> i said cultural similarities not religious and i dont get why some idiots decided to bring religion into this thread



I don't mean to insult anyone, but for us religion and cultural is synonymous.


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## dollarman

future_bound said:


> There is very little historical evidence to support your assertion that Islam was spread by force in the sub-continent. If the Mughals wanted, they could have converted every single hindu to islam by force and they had almost 800 years to accomplish that but they did not.



There is a LOT of historical evidence. And trust me the Mughals tried (they did not succeed completely but Pakistan and Bangladesh are what they achieved), especially Aurangzeb. They destroyed the Somnath temple 4 times, and thousands other temples as well.

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## RazPaK

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Commonsense comes with good education.
> 
> 
> 
> No we dont think so...
> There was peaceful conversion through sufis & saints but that happened during rule of moghuls where as sizeable people were converted by sword or fear of jiziya long before that in north western & western parts of ancient India.



**** off you moron. Most Muslims of Pakistan then helped your Hindu ancestors from being annihilated. Us Muslims in Punjab even protected you from Afghan rage by voiding treaties made by Afghans. Even though they were our brothers.

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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Commonsense comes with good education.
> 
> 
> 
> No we dont think so...
> There was peaceful conversion through sufis & saints but that happened during rule of moghuls where as sizeable people were converted by sword or fear of jiziya long before that in north western & western parts of ancient India.



Read what Pakistani text books say about mughals and you will be shocked.

Maybe a very very few people are converted by them but overwhelming majority are converts by sufis and saints.


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## kumarkumar1867

future_bound said:


> There is very little historical evidence to support your assertion that Islam was spread by force in the sub-continent. If the Mughals wanted, they could have converted every single hindu to islam by force and they had almost 800 years to accomplish that but they did not.?



If Moghul wanted ??? Lol

Converting entire hindu population was not a cutting a piece of cake.

Akbar could rule India only with help of hindu rajpootana kings, he pleased rajpoots, befriended them as he knew without their help he will never rule india, His son & grandson followed the same suit.

Aurangazeb tried to convert every single hindu & in turn got beaten by Raja Chahhtrapati Shivaji in longest war that moghul ever fought & died of butt hurt making future Moghul emperors mere puppets of peshwas.



> And what has converting to a different religion got to do with sacrificing self respect?? The ancestors of not only all muslims but also all european christians were once pagans like hindus as far back as 2,000 years ago. Did all the europeans lose self respect by converting to Christianity?



Does any European country have valleys named as PAGANKUSH where millions of pagans were slaughtered for being non-christians like hindus & buddhist were slaughtered for being non-muslims like we have HINDUKUSH??
Was prize of 1000 golden coins given to people who was gifted Head of Pagan priest by Christian kingss like head of Buddhist or Hindu Preist was rewarded by Timur??

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## Agni5000

Pakistan has identity crisis. They are ignored by middle east so they seek attention by extreme means of islam..

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## Yogi

RazPaK said:


> I don't mean to insult anyone, but for us religion and cultural is synonymous.



Thats ur comprehension problem dear n nobody can help in that.... 

anyways best example would be the difference between Arab, Pakistani, Indonesian n African cultures in many lingual n cultural practices although they follow the same religion..

Hope it'll help u....

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## RazPaK

The hindus of this forum are retarded. They have no point of argument and continue to bark. They really have no point to bark, but they continue to bark anyways without studying history. There were Muslim Rajput clans that battled the Mughals, but these baniyas conveniently try to ignore them, and trying to propagate Muslim rule which was supposedly unjust. 

What can they say themselves? That Rajputs came from elsewhere? They were all homegrown and hated Hindu supremacy, but go figure. The Indians like to make claims that all Muslims of Pakistan are not indigenous, however they are slapped with stark reality time and time again on this forum.


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## RazPaK

Funny thing is that some of these Hindus profited from the Mughals, but now they are showing some kind of hostile front. These idiots are confused about their identity, not us.

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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> **** off you moron. Most Muslims of Pakistan then helped your Hindu ancestors from being annihilated. Us Muslims in Punjab *even protected you from Afghan rage by voiding treaties made by Afghans*. Even though they were our brothers.



Yes We know your holy intentions in treaties which also saved your a*s from getting beaten first.

And stop verbal sh*tting here.

First there was no Pakistan to help our ancestors, the people helped each others due to mutual cultural & religion bondings. 

Second muslims belongs to india in same way hindus belongs to it so dont bring muslims helped hindus or hindus helped muslims.

Third, stop masturbating about past times, its showtime go & face Afghans who are beating a*ses your army & civilians in Karachi, KPK & FATA.

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## Don Jaguar

RazPaK said:


> The hindus of this forum are retarded. They have no point of argument and continue to bark. They really have no point to bark, but they continue to bark anyways without studying history. There were Muslim Rajput clans that battled the Mughals, but these baniyas conveniently try to ignore them, and trying to propagate Muslim rule which was supposedly unjust.
> 
> What can they say themselves? That Rajputs came from elsewhere? They were all homegrown and hated Hindu supremacy, but go figure. The Indians like to make claims that all Muslims of Pakistan are not indigenous, however they are slapped with stark reality time and time again on this forum.



Not only rajput my brother, muslim converts from all over sub continent participated in invasion.

Keep in mind why urdu was invented?

It was invented for multi ethnic mughal army.


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## RazPaK

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yes We know your holy intentions in treaties which also saved your a*s from getting beaten first.
> 
> And stop verbal sh*tting here.
> 
> First there was no Pakistan to help our ancestors, the people helped each others due to mutual cultural & religion bondings.
> 
> Second muslims belongs to india in same way hindus belongs to it so dont bring muslims helped hindus or hindus helped muslims.
> 
> Third, stop masturbating about past times, its showtime go & face Afghans who are beating a*ses your army & civilians in Karachi, KPK & FATA.



You are a retard. We Muslims of Punjab were in partnership with the Durrani Empire. After seeing Hindus of our own people being murdered and tortured, we severed our ties with the durranis. Try learning realy history you mouthpiece of shiv sena. You are pathetic to be honest.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Arab and Chinese culture dominates Pakistan today , I believe

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## Zarvan

RazPaK said:


> Funny thing is that some of these Hindus profited from the Mughals, but now they are showing some kind of hostile front. These idiots are confused about their identity, not us.


Yes I agree those Mughals who kicked their *** for almost thousand years and also those before them the things which they build now India show them so proudly Indians really need to wake up If India want to take credit of those things than why abuse Ghaznavi aud Ghauri than Indians should salute them to

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## Don Jaguar

RazPaK said:


> Funny thing is that some of these Hindus profited from the Mughals, but now they are showing some kind of hostile front. These idiots are confused about their identity, not us.



True, under mughal control in early 17th century mughal empire was the largest economy of the world.


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## dollarman

RazPaK said:


> You are a retard. *We Muslims of Punjab were in partnership with the Durrani Empire. After seeing Hindus of our own people being murdered and tortured, we severed our ties with the durranis.* Try learning realy history you mouthpiece of shiv sena. You are pathetic to be honest.



That is some high quality BS. Pretty pathetic if that is what the Pakistanis are learning in the name of history.



Zarvan said:


> Yes I agree those Mughals who kicked their *** for almost thousand years and also those before them the things which they build now India show them so proudly Indians really need to wake up If India want to take credit of those things than why abuse Ghaznavi aud Ghauri than Indians should salute them to



Because unlike Mughals, Ghauri and Ghaznavi were not born in India. They were born in Afghanistan.

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## illusion8

RazPaK said:


> You are a retard. We Muslims of Punjab were in partnership with the Durrani Empire. After seeing Hindus of our own people being murdered and tortured, we severed our ties with the durranis. Try learning realy history you mouthpiece of shiv sena. You are pathetic to be honest.



Going by what's happening inside Pakistan to minorities - yeah we believe you.....not.
It would be more like you joining with the invaders to kill some more.

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## Don Jaguar

dollarman said:


> Because unlike Mughals, Ghauri and Ghaznavi were not born in India. They were born in Afghanistan.



Zahir ud din Muhammad Babur was born in uzbekistan.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.



Sufis who were travelling in the caravan of the invaders...BTW never knew MBQ was a dancing sufi..

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## dollarman

RazPaK said:


> Would you like legit sources you dumb ***?




No I don't want to read your dumb*ss Pakistani Studies book. We know what kind of retarded history you dumb $hits learn in Pakistan, keep your delusions with yourself.

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## Gandhi G in da house

RazPaK said:


> Just like white men taking your mothers and sisters dominating your culture today. I believe.



White men taking my mother and sister ? They are droning ur @sses as we speak buddy not mine 

But since u r RazPak , i shall ignore .

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## Bhairava

RazPaK said:


> You are a retard. We Muslims of Punjab were in partnership with the Durrani Empire. After seeing Hindus of our own people being murdered and tortured, we severed our ties with the durranis. .



Partnership with the Durranis ? Lulz...the Afghans despised the d.k.* Punjabi musalmans as much as they despised the Hindus and never took you as their equals to think of 'partnership'. I guess that hatred is still alive when they call you d.k.

* abrreviations given to not sound offensive.

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## dollarman

Don Jaguar said:


> Zahir ud din Muhammad Babur was born in uzbekistan.



I was talking about every other Mughal. Babur is not someone we care about that much...

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## RazPaK

dollarman said:


> No I don't want to read your dumb*ss Pakistani Studies book. We know what kind of retarded history you dumb $hits learn in Pakistan, keep your delusions with yourself.
> 
> What is in textbook of pakistani school??1/4 - YouTube




You are an ugly Indian retard. It wasn't by chance that we ruled over you retards for centuries. My sources were all foreign, but what does it matter?

An Indian in front of me and my status is worth nothing.


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## Bhairava

Zarvan said:


> Yes I agree those Mughals who kicked their *** for almost thousand years....



here comes the resident mullah. maulvi saab do you know when the Babur invaded India first and when the last mughal emperor was de-throned ?

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## illusion8

RazPaK said:


> You are an ugly Indian retard. It wasn't by chance that we ruled over you retards for centuries. My sources were all foreign, but what does it matter?
> 
> An Indian in front of me and my status is worth nothing.



Parts of India were under Mughal rule - and you are not Mughals by any stretch of imagination - the commonality is they were Islamic and which you adapted for whatever reasons.

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Sufis who were travelling in the caravan of the invaders...BTW never knew MBQ was a dancing sufi..



Hahahahahahaha.

Sufis and mughal invaders together is like america and taliban together. 

They both didn't liked each other.


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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> The hindus of this forum are retarded. They have no point of argument and continue to bark. They really have no point to bark, but they continue to bark anyways without studying history. There were Muslim Rajput clans that battled the Mughals, but these baniyas conveniently try to ignore them, and trying to propagate Muslim rule which was supposedly unjust.
> 
> *What can they say themselves? That Rajputs came from elsewhere?* They were all homegrown and hated Hindu supremacy, but go figure. The Indians like to make claims that all Muslims of Pakistan are not indigenous, however they are slapped with stark reality time and time again on this forum.



Its not a our responsibilty to educate you about Rajputs if you missed your history classes or your school failed to teach you real history. 
Google Rajput & see their history.Rajput were warrior tribes are much much older than islam itself.




RazPaK said:


> You are a retard. *We Muslims of Punjab were in partnership with the Durrani Empire. After seeing Hindus of our own people being murdered and tortured, we severed our ties with the durranis.* Try learning realy history you mouthpiece of shiv sena. You are pathetic to be honest.



So now you cease to be an arab and want to co-relate yourself with afghan rulers? Please post the same in comic & funny section.




RazPaK said:


> Kumar is a dumb piece of **** to be honest.



I will take as a compliment as it comes from TROLL like you !! Thank You !!




RazPaK said:


> Just like white men taking your mothers and sisters dominating your culture today. I believe.



Is this your best or you can be more pathetic & low life than this comment shows??

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## Bhairava

Actually that is a good question - is there one Muslim king who was born in either of four provinces that comprise Pakistan now and ruled it ?



Don Jaguar said:


> Hahahahahahaha.
> 
> Sufis and mughal invaders together is like america and taliban together.
> 
> They both didn't liked each other.



Not talking about the Mughals ..but about the Turkics before them.

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## dollarman

Bhairava said:


> Actually that is a good question - is there one Muslim king who was born in either of four provinces that comprise Pakistan now and ruled it ?



No, the only worthwile Kings from present day Pakistan were either Hindus like King Porus and Raja Dahir or Sikhs like Ranjeet Singh, who actually had the courage to take on foreign invaders. The rest are just leftover rape products that think they are big $hit now that they have converted to their invaders religion.

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## ajtr

Rajputs came from Arabian peninsular.....dont you indian know that.......

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## Jackdaws

LOL. This discussion was about Pakistani culture today. Why do you have to time-travel to 3000 BC to the Indus Valley Civilization? Some Pakistani posted about the 800 year old Mughal empire..lol..in what alternate universe is 1520 something to 1757 calculated as 800 years? 

No one asks you to watch Indian movies, follow Indian customs - you do it because you are part of the same civilization. Yes, you are majority Muslim - but civilization and nationality are 2 different things. You have more in common with Indians than Arabs or Persians. Just embrace who you are instead of fighting it - belonging to the Indic civilization doesn't make you Indian. Do Taiwanese reject their Chinese heritage?

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## RazPaK

dollarman said:


> No, the only worthwile Kings from present day Pakistan were either Hindus like King Porus and Raja Dahir or Sikhs like Ranjeet Singh, who actually had the courage to take on foreign invaders. The rest are just leftover rape products that think they are big $hit now that they have converted to their invaders religion.





If they were rape products who are you slimy Hindus?

I wrote an entire page of embarrassment for you, but the web page faltered and it was not posted.


Your fathers were the ones shining the boots of the invaders if I'm correct. 

What kind of pride or dignity do you have?


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## Bhairava

RazPaK said:


> If they were rape products who are you slimy Hindus?
> 
> I wrote an entire page of embarrassment for you, but the web page faltered and it was not posted.
> 
> Your fathers were the ones shining the boots of the invaders *if I'm correct*.
> 
> What kind of pride or dignity do you have?



No you are not correct. 

And capitulating to invaders for taking on Hindus has very weak ground..you can try time-tested things like lack of toilets, poverty etc...

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Actually that is a good question - *is there one Muslim king who was born in either of four provinces* that comprise Pakistan now and ruled it ?



King is not necessary their majority army was comprised of local converts.


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## illusion8

Pakistani songs and drama's were and are still popular in India, and probably vice versa with Indian music and films, I don't get it why it should it give anybody a complex.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Jackdaws said:


> LOL. This discussion was about Pakistani culture today. Why do you have to time-travel to 3000 BC to the Indus Valley Civilization? Some Pakistani posted about the 800 year old Mughal empire..lol..in what alternate universe is 1520 something to 1757 calculated as 800 years?
> 
> No one asks you to watch Indian movies, follow Indian customs - you do it because you are part of the same civilization. Yes, you are majority Muslim - but civilization and nationality are 2 different things. You have more in common with Indians than Arabs or Persians. Just embrace who you are instead of fighting it - belonging to the Indic civilization doesn't make you Indian. Do Taiwanese reject their Chinese heritage?



Mughal Empire was dominant in India only from 1526-1707 . After the death of Aurangzeb it saw a rapid decline and rise of Marathas .That makes it only about 181 years of Mughal rule really .

Anyway most Mughal kings were Indian born , so it was an Indian empire, which we also should be proud of , particularly during the reign of Akbar the great .

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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> King is not necessary their majority army was comprised of local converts.



My question was simple - was there a simple king who came from the 4 provinces ? 

And just being conscripts under foreign invaders does not give you the bragging rights for "ruling us for 1000 years".

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## Jackdaws

And simply because I enjoy listening to Junoon, Strings, Nusrat and Rahat - does it make me a Pakistani? Of course not. I listen to it because it sounds good to me - not because I like Pakistan as a nation-state.

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## Gandhi G in da house

illusion8 said:


> Pakistani songs and drama's were and are still popular in India, and probably vice versa with Indian music and films, I don't get it why it should it give anybody a complex.



Pakistani music -Yes , Dramas- No . Not anymore at least .

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## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> Rajputs came from Arabian peninsular.....dont you indian know that.......



No, from rajasthan.

My history teacher use to say mughals used rajput muslim converts to invade india otherwise they were not able to do that.


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## illusion8

nick_indian said:


> Pakistani music -Yes , Dramas- No . Not anymore at least .



Were - I've seen a bunch of them when I was a kid, the comedy dramas were quite funny.

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## ALOK31

n 1193, the Nalanda University was sacked by[11] the fanatic Bakhtiyar Khilji, a Turk;[12] this event is seen by scholars as a late milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. The Persian historian Minhaj-i-Siraj, in his chronicle the Tabaqat-I-Nasiri, reported that thousands of monks were burned alive and thousands beheaded as Khilji tried his best to uproot Buddhism and plant Islam by the sword[13] the burning of the library continued for several months and "smoke from the burning manuscripts hung for days like a dark pall over the low hills."[14]

Nalanda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jackdaws

RazPaK said:


> Talking about resisiting invaders, then the Hindus lay silent while the british were pummeling their mothers in the dead of night. What funny creatures they are.
> 
> 
> 
> You or your relative was probably a slave. Get used to it.



Actually Hindus were fighting the British - the British sent them to jail, tried them for sedition, hung them as well for fighting for and demanding independence. Of course the dude who created Pakistan never spent a night in jail for fighting the British or contributing anything worthwhile to the independence movement. Since, we were discussing British slaves...



Don Jaguar said:


> No, from rajasthan.
> 
> My history teacher use to say mughals used rajput muslim converts to invade india otherwise they were not able to do that.



He was kidding.

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> My question was simple - was there a simple king who came from the 4 provinces ?
> 
> And just being conscripts under foreign invaders does not give you the bragging rights for "ruling us for 1000 years".



We joined their army so yes we have a right to say we ruled.

BTW Ahmad shah abdali was born in multan.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> We joined their army so yes we have a right to say we ruled.
> 
> BTW Ahmad shah abdali was born in multan.



Can a sepoy claim he is the Chief of Staff or he is the Supreme Commander ? 

He just takes orders from his superiors, who in this case were foreign invaders.

So realistically speaking the only population who were ruled over were you people and not us.

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## Don Jaguar

Jackdaws said:


> *He* was kidding.



She. 

And i don't think so she was kidding.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> She.
> 
> And i don't think so she was kidding.



I dont think there existed a history teacher even. That was probably you telling us all a nice story..

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## Gandhi G in da house

RazPaK said:


> And what were the rest of your Indians doing? Selling your mothers to the British..?
> 
> You are a pathetic type. We spit on you.



Calm down buddy . Don't raise your BP . There will come a time when the world, muslim and non-muslim alike will stop spitting on Pakistan .Relax , Be positive.

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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> No, from rajasthan.
> 
> My history teacher use to say mughals used rajput muslim converts to invade india otherwise they were not able to do that.


Rana sanga was not muslim he did invite babar and fought with his army against ibrahim lodhi thinking babar will loot delhi and will go back.ultimately he had to fight babar.

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## Bhairava

RazPaK said:


> I have to be honest with you. You are a moron. I usually don't participate in these types of threads.



Good. It's better that I not tell what I think of you.





ajtr said:


> Rana sanga was not muslim he did invite babar and fought with his army against ibrahim lodhi thinking babar will loot delhi and will go back.ultimately he had to fight babar.



A small correction - Sanga did not exactly join forces with Babur against Lodi..He was just watching from the sidelines.

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Can a sepoy claim he is the Chief of Staff or he is the Supreme Commander ?
> 
> He just takes orders from his superiors, who in this case were foreign invaders.
> 
> So realistically speaking the only population who were ruled over were you people and not us.



But the sepoy can say my army ruled that place.

BTW invaders totally absorbed themselves with locals.


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## Icewolf

"In their pledge to uphold Indian traditions, the British &#8211; according to Prakash &#8211; first had to discover and invent these traditions by alleging that slavery had a base in indigenous laws. Recognition of slavery started with a declaration in 1774 of the Provincial Council at Patna, stating that slavery should not be hereditary but lifelong, and that a particular form of slavery was "almost as if no bondage existed." With this, slavery was put under the category of "unfreedom" with the only antonym as "bondage". Further recognition of slavery was the Orientalist interpretation of classical texts, such as H.T. Colebrooke's Digest of Hindu Law on Contracts and Successions (1801), which allowed the British to assume inherent classifications of polluted and non-polluted labour to certain groups, with corresponding categories for unfree and free. In 1808, a Magistrate from Bundelkhand sent a letter to the court in Calcutta in which he denounced the existence of slavery in India, leading to a series of questions being made to pundits and muftis attached to the court whose replies were interpreted as support for the indigenous existence of slavery."


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## tarrar

None. Pakistani culture is original Pakistani culture, there is nothing Hindi in it. 

Unfortunately todays modern generation have adopted Bollywood & star plus in their life style & these people are changing their culture, which is totally BULLSH*T.


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## illusion8

Jackdaws said:


> Actually Hindus were fighting the British - the British sent them to jail, tried them for sedition, hung them as well for fighting for and demanding independence. Of course the dude who created Pakistan never spent a night in jail for fighting the British or contributing anything worthwhile to the independence movement. Since, we were discussing British slaves...
> 
> 
> 
> He was kidding.



If I am right no one from the Muslim league spent a day in jail either.

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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> Talking about resisiting invaders, then the Hindus lay silent while the british were pummeling their mothers in the dead of night. What funny creatures they are.



Invaders were Ghazni, Ghori, Timurs, etcs.Moghuls were muslim but much indian than any present day indian muslim. British rule over india was a combined failure of hindus & muslims in India.

By the way,It was hindus who fought & brought freedom to India.You got Pakistan & Freedom just because of hindus & their efforts. 
Otherwise Sir Syed Ahmad Khan (originator of concept of seperate muslim state) wanted British rule in India & most educated muslims wanted to polish shoes of goras instead of fighting with british.

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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> But the sepoy can say my army ruled that place.
> 
> BTW invaders totally absorbed themselves with locals.



The sepoy does not own the Army. The King owns the army. The sepoy is just a tool - an expendable tool.

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## Joe Shearer

Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.





Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.




I am curious to know: which parts of your culture has descended from the IVC? None of ours has, except for a very dubious identification of one seal with Siva, and of a speculation that the language of the seals might be a Dravidian language, or an Indo-Aryan.

Can you list some features?

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## illusion8

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Invaders were Ghazni, Ghori, Timurs, etcs.Moghuls were muslim but much indian than any present day indian muslim. British rule over india was a combined failure of hindus & muslims in India.
> 
> By the way,It was hindus who fought & brought freedom to India.You got Pakistan & Freedom just because of hindus & their efforts.
> Otherwise Sir Syed Ahmad Khan (originator of concept of seperate muslim state) wanted British rule in India & most educated muslims wanted to polish shoes of goras instead of fighting with british.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...ntinent-good-thing-muslims-3.html#post3446151
 the slaves of the masters and they still are...

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## Icewolf

Joe Shearer said:


> I am curious to know: which parts of your culture has descended from the IVC? None of ours has, except for a very dubious identification of one seal with Siva, and of a speculation that the language of the seals might be a Dravidian language, or an Indo-Aryan.
> 
> Can you list some features?



Well for one there was elements of IVC stolen by Hinduism such as worshipping of cow and the Swastika.. .There are also proof Vedas may have been written in Pakistan

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## tarrar

Jackdaws said:


> Actually Hindus were fighting the British - the British sent them to jail, tried them for sedition, hung them as well for fighting for and demanding independence. Of course the dude who created Pakistan never spent a night in jail for fighting the British or contributing anything worthwhile to the independence movement. Since, we were discussing British slaves...
> 
> 
> 
> He was kidding.





Lozzzzzz & lozzz on you again & again & again. Anything that is said against Indians becomes nothing more than "oh he was joking or he was kidding". This is the truth you guys never admit anything.


----------



## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> Rana sanga was not muslim he did invite babar and fought with his army against ibrahim lodhi thinking babar will loot delhi and will go back.ultimately he had to fight babar.



Later on his descendants used rajput converts to expand their empire.


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## Joe Shearer

cb4 said:


> i have visited North African countries and there people too have involved themselves with this Indian crap. Something needs to be done fast to stop it growing. Already, this influence has caused most of the world to think that India and Pakistan to be the same. I say shoot the bas**ds that go to India for film shoot!




India and Pakistan are the same? Please shoot them the moment they say something like this. We have a reputation to keep up.

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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> Later on his descendants used rajput converts to expand their empire.


you mean Mansingh and raja todarmal...............?

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## Joe Shearer

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



At last! One person who has got it right!

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## tarrar

Jackdaws said:


> Are those pics of Pakistanis servicing Americans in NWFP ?




can see that you have eye sight problem, may I suggest a Doctors name to you for eye check up. 

This is the reality about the Indians & people like you never admit the truth. All I will say is go & shine your Dull India because this is what you are good at & you all hindis love to live in the world of fiction.


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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> The sepoy does not own the Army. The King owns the army. The sepoy is just a tool - an expendable tool.



Real work is done by sepoy and since they mixed with us so yes we ruled.


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> No, from rajasthan.
> 
> My history teacher use to say mughals used rajput muslim converts to invade india otherwise they were not able to do that.



No rajpoot was converted forcefully but was honoured & treated as friend *while or before invading *indian kingdoms. 

Forceful conversions of gujjars rajpoots & jatts would have assured end of moghul empire before start. 

Rajpoots converted peacefully later on by their will due to beauty of islam, sufism or desire of royal graces & rewards.

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## Jackdaws

illusion8 said:


> If I am right no one from the Muslim league spent a day in jail either.



Yes - the only true freedom fighter from Pakistan was Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. It is sad that he spent more time in Pakistani jails than in British ones. Only Pakistani to get a Bharat Ratna.

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## Don Jaguar

dollarman said:


> Eternal slave mentality of Pakistanis.



Very few pakistanis like them.


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## Awesome

All wedding culture is Pakistani.


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## ajtr

Bhairava said:


> yaar icewolf, dont make fun of the Sunni Muslims (Soonee Mahomedans) in your quest to insult the Hindus...


He is like hidden gujju modi bot making fun of muslims.....


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## Icewolf

dollarman said:


> Eternal slave mentality of Pakistanis.



*In India the Muslims established a number of slave trade centres. Besides Delhi and cities in Bengal there is mention of Badaon in Uttar Pradesh and Mandor in Rajasthan.62 But of course from the narrative of the chroniclers it appears that slave markets existed in almost all important places in the country, for slaves were also sold in fairs held in major cities. In this inhuman business the Hindus were not interested. Firstly, they were themselves at the receiving end, they themselves were the victims. And secondly, as W.H. Moreland points out, &#8220;We may infer from della Valle&#8217;s statements that the principal Hindus at Surat - perhaps the most humane people that ever lived - disapproved entirely of slavery.&#8221; Now few people are as good traders as Gujaratis. They would have excelled if they had taken to slave-trading. But catching and selling of slaves did not fit in with the Hindu psyche. Although, commenting on the statement of della Valle, Moreland says, &#8220;but I do not think that this remark can be extended to Hindus generally&#8230; though in Akbar&#8217;s time at least it did not secure the approval of all Hindus&#8230; The existence of slavery is testified to by the travellers Abdur Razak, Conti and Barbosa.&#8221;63 It would be safe to presume that it prevailed in the Deccan, because it prevailed farther north in the country whence the Deccan dynasties had sprung and we may believe Nikitin&#8217;s statement that in his time there was a trade in &#8216;Black people&#8217; in Bidar.&#8221;64 But the trade was carried on by Muslims and not Hindus, for Moreland adds that in 1643, &#8220;a Nayak, or chief, rejected a Dutch request for leave to buy up to 1000 slaves yearly on the ground that the sale of human being was not only a scandal but a sin.&#8221;*

 

*But the Portuguese in this matter followed the custom of the Muslims. &#8220;Linschoten recorded that they never worked, but employed slaves, who were sold daily in the market like beasts, and della Valle notes that the &#8216;greatest part&#8217; of people in Goa were slaves.&#8221;66 The Portuguese not only employed Indian slaves for domestic and other duties, but they also regularly brought slaves from Abyssinia and Mozambique for sale at good price in Goa and Surat. They dominated the Indian seas where they pirated non-chalantly, captured slaves and sold them in the markets of Hugli, Tamluk, Pipli, St. Thome, Ceylon and Goa. Pyrard (1608-11) observed that goods of all the world must pass Ormuz and pay tribute to the Portuguese.67 It so happened that their Governor in Hugli, Manoel Travers, infuriated Shahjahan when as a prince, he was in rebellion and in a helpless position. Travers seized some of the prince&#8217;s richly laden boats and carried away some of Mumtaz Mahall&#8217;s slave girls. When Shahjahan became king he ordered the Mughal governor of Bengal to chastise the Portuguese. After a sanguinary battle on the famous river port Hugli in 1632 they were expelled from Bengal.68 As a matter of fact the people of India hailed the other European adventurers as liberators from Portuguese tyranny, their forcible conversions and their obnoxious slave trade.69*


----------



## future_bound

It is obvious from this thread that there seems to be a perception among hindus that the ancestors of Pakistani muslims did something wrong by converting to islam because it was the so-called invader's religion.

Now even if the ancestors of pakistanis were once hindus, so what?? The ancestors of all muslims and even all christians were once pagans like hindus if we go back to 2000 years.
Hinduism is a casteist religion, and in such a caste based society; who a person's ancestors were and what they did for a living thousands of years ago determines his or her worth as a human being today. That is why i have noticed that hindus have this obsession about ancestry. 

Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism to any other religion that promises equality in order to escape the caste system


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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> At last! One person who has got it right!


I concur..............


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## Joe Shearer

cb4 said:


> @ Indians: Go to this thread
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/20619-indus-valley-civilization-pakistan.html



So which parts of this are part of Pakistani culture today?


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## Awesome

Jackdaws said:


> Yes - the only true freedom fighter from Pakistan was Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. It is sad that he spent more time in Pakistani jails than in British ones. Only Pakistani to get a Bharat Ratna.



Due to a little matter of plotting Jinnah's assassination.


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## Jackdaws

tarrar said:


> Lozzzzzz & lozzz on you again & again & again. Anything that is said against Indians becomes nothing more than "oh he was joking or he was kidding". This is the truth you guys never admit anything.




Err - wtf - what do you want me to say - that the Rajputs did come from the Arabian peninsula? LOL.

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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> *No rajpoot was converted forcefully* but was honoured & treated as friend *while or before invading *indian kingdoms.
> 
> Forceful conversions of gujjars rajpoots & jatts would have assured end of moghul empire before start.
> 
> Rajpoots converted peacefully later on by their will due to beauty of islam, sufism or desire of royal graces & rewards.



Again the same thing that we explained before.

Forceful conversion.


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## ajtr

Asim Aquil said:


> All wedding culture is Pakistani.


can someone define what is pakistani culture or what is indian culture first....

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## Joe Shearer

future_bound said:


> The core of the Indus Valley Civilization that included harappa, mohenjo-daro and mehrgarh was in the land called Pakistan. Only the periphery was in parts of india. The irony is that the IVC is of a lot of cultural and historical significance to the hindus but there are hardly any hindus left in that land now




The question was not that. The question was what have you got in your present culture from the IVC?


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> Real work is done by sepoy and since they mixed with us so yes we ruled.



You are saying that it was not Shah Jahan who should be credited for building the Taj Mahal but the stone mason..

The fact is there was not a single ruler from the provinces that comprise today's Pakistan and all you did act as conscripts for the invading rulers who used you as expendable tools. Nothing to be proud of, friend. Actually you were ruled for some time by Sikh rulers. So its the other way round.

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## Jackdaws

future_bound said:


> It is obvious from this thread that there seems to be a perception among hindus that the ancestors of Pakistani muslims did something wrong by converting to islam because it was the so-called invader's religion.
> 
> Now even if the ancestors of pakistanis were once hindus, so what?? The ancestors of all muslims and even all christians were once pagan like hindus if we go back to 2000 years.
> Hinduism is a casteist religion, and in such a caste based society; who a person's ancestors were and what they did for a living thousands of years ago determines his or her worth as a human being today. That is why i have noticed that hindus have this obsession about ancestry.
> 
> Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism to any other religion that promises equality in order to escape the caste system



LOL - who brought up history in this thread first - Indians or Pakistanis?


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## Icewolf

ajtr said:


> can someone define what is pakistani culture or what is indian culture first....



Pakistani culture is IVC indian culture is dravidian and ganges

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## Bhairava

ajtr said:


> He is like hidden gujju modi bot making fun of muslims.....



He probably did not know that Soonee Mahomedans referred to Sunni Muslims..or perhaps he did know that, since he himself is not a Sunni.


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## Joe Shearer

Myth_buster_1 said:


> do you get it that we are living in 2012 not 3000-4000 BC!




Did YOU get that there is a mindless bunch of Pakistanis who think that in some magic way, the dead culture of the IVC haw penetrated them? You will get nowhere trying to explain to them. Reason and logic don't work; they felt this to be true at an emotional level.

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## ajtr

Icewolf said:


> Pakistani culture is IVC indian culture is dravidian and ganges


you are gujju so embrace ur brethern modi...........

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## Icewolf

Agni5000 said:


> Pakistan has no self respect. Example drone strike..



*In India the Muslims established a number of slave trade centres. Besides Delhi and cities in Bengal there is mention of Badaon in Uttar Pradesh and Mandor in Rajasthan.62 But of course from the narrative of the chroniclers it appears that slave markets existed in almost all important places in the country, for slaves were also sold in fairs held in major cities. In this inhuman business the Hindus were not interested. Firstly, they were themselves at the receiving end, they themselves were the victims. And secondly, as W.H. Moreland points out, &#8220;We may infer from della Valle&#8217;s statements that the principal Hindus at Surat - perhaps the most humane people that ever lived - disapproved entirely of slavery.&#8221; Now few people are as good traders as Gujaratis. They would have excelled if they had taken to slave-trading. But catching and selling of slaves did not fit in with the Hindu psyche. Although, commenting on the statement of della Valle, Moreland says, &#8220;but I do not think that this remark can be extended to Hindus generally&#8230; though in Akbar&#8217;s time at least it did not secure the approval of all Hindus&#8230; The existence of slavery is testified to by the travellers Abdur Razak, Conti and Barbosa.&#8221;63 It would be safe to presume that it prevailed in the Deccan, because it prevailed farther north in the country whence the Deccan dynasties had sprung and we may believe Nikitin&#8217;s statement that in his time there was a trade in &#8216;Black people&#8217; in Bidar.&#8221;64 But the trade was carried on by Muslims and not Hindus, for Moreland adds that in 1643, &#8220;a Nayak, or chief, rejected a Dutch request for leave to buy up to 1000 slaves yearly on the ground that the sale of human being was not only a scandal but a sin.&#8221;*

 

*But the Portuguese in this matter followed the custom of the Muslims. &#8220;Linschoten recorded that they never worked, but employed slaves, who were sold daily in the market like beasts, and della Valle notes that the &#8216;greatest part&#8217; of people in Goa were slaves.&#8221;66 The Portuguese not only employed Indian slaves for domestic and other duties, but they also regularly brought slaves from Abyssinia and Mozambique for sale at good price in Goa and Surat. They dominated the Indian seas where they pirated non-chalantly, captured slaves and sold them in the markets of Hugli, Tamluk, Pipli, St. Thome, Ceylon and Goa. Pyrard (1608-11) observed that goods of all the world must pass Ormuz and pay tribute to the Portuguese.67 It so happened that their Governor in Hugli, Manoel Travers, infuriated Shahjahan when as a prince, he was in rebellion and in a helpless position. Travers seized some of the prince&#8217;s richly laden boats and carried away some of Mumtaz Mahall&#8217;s slave girls. When Shahjahan became king he ordered the Mughal governor of Bengal to chastise the Portuguese. After a sanguinary battle on the famous river port Hugli in 1632 they were expelled from Bengal.68 As a matter of fact the people of India hailed the other European adventurers as liberators from Portuguese tyranny, their forcible conversions and their obnoxious slave trade.69*

*You had alot of self respect on this *


----------



## Jackdaws

Asim Aquil said:


> Due to a little matter of plotting Jinnah's assassination.



Please enlighten me on this one.


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## Joe Shearer

Bhairava said:


> Yes, and you have bigger hearts too...




Why stop there?


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## ajtr

Bhairava said:


> Yes, and you have bigger hearts too...


Indians have solution to bigger heart problem.............


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## vsdoc

Joe Shearer said:


> Why stop there?



We have bigger feet too?

And mouths to put them in?

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> You are saying that it was not Shah Jahan who should be credited for building the Taj Mahal but the stone mason..
> 
> The fact is there was not a single ruler from the provinces that comprise today's Pakistan and all you did act as conscripts for the invading rulers who used you as expendable tools. Nothing to be proud of, friend. Actually you were ruled for some time by Sikh rulers. So its the other way round.



Stone mason no.

Engineers yes.


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## Bhairava

Icewolf said:


> *In India the Muslims established a number of slave trade centres*. Besides Delhi and cities in Bengal there is mention of Badaon in Uttar Pradesh and Mandor in Rajasthan.62 But of course from the narrative of the chroniclers it appears that slave markets existed in almost all important places in the country, for slaves were also sold in fairs held in major cities.* In this inhuman business the Hindus were not interested.* Firstly, they were themselves at the receiving end, they themselves were the victims. And secondly, as W.H. Moreland points out, &#8220;We may infer from della Valle&#8217;s statements that the principal Hindus at Surat - perhaps the most humane people that ever lived - disapproved entirely of slavery.&#8221; Now few people are as good traders as Gujaratis. They would have excelled if they had taken to slave-trading. *But catching and selling of slaves did not fit in with the Hindu psyche.* Although, commenting on the statement of della Valle, Moreland says, &#8220;but I do not think that this remark can be extended to Hindus generally&#8230; though in Akbar&#8217;s time at least it did not secure the approval of all Hindus&#8230; The existence of slavery is testified to by the travellers Abdur Razak, Conti and Barbosa.&#8221;63 It would be safe to presume that it prevailed in the Deccan, because it prevailed farther north in the country whence the Deccan dynasties had sprung and we may believe Nikitin&#8217;s statement that in his time there was a trade in &#8216;Black people&#8217; in Bidar.&#8221;64 But the trade was carried on by Muslims and not Hindus, for Moreland adds that in 1643, &#8220;a Nayak, or chief, rejected a Dutch request for leave to buy up to 1000 slaves yearly on the ground that the sale of human being was not only a scandal but a sin.&#8221;
> 
> You had alot of self respect on this



Icewolf, why are you intent on insulting the Muslims and Islam today ? First you post a picture of a Sunni Muslim disparagingly and now you are giving articles about how Muslims were involved in the inhumane slave trade and praises Hindus for not indulging in it. 

I know Bohras are big supporters of Modi, but this is carrying it a bit far.

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## RazPaK

To be honest I'm happy Joe Shearer is here to calm down the retards from making outrageous statements.

Pdf should make joe shearer a mod for his fairness and his undeniable scholarly ability. My two cents. The rest of the Indians are morons.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> Stone mason no.
> 
> Engineers yes.



Still they were all subordinate to Shah Jahan and history remembers only him. 

In a similar way, you guys were probably conscripts toiling away under foreign masters and fighting their wars. Actually you know what ? You are doing that even now - fighting America's GWOT. I guess not much has changed.

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## Don Jaguar

This topic is probably discussed 1000 times before.


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## ajtr

Bhairava said:


> Icewolf, why are you intent on insulting the Muslims and Islam today ? First you post a picture of a Sunni Muslim disparagingly and now you are giving articles about how Muslims were involved in the inhumane slave trade and praises Hindus for not indulging in it.
> 
> I know Bohras are big supporters of Modi, but this is carrying it a bit far.


I wonder if he even read that extract or carefully saw that pic before posting it


----------



## illusion8

Asim Aquil said:


> All wedding culture is Pakistani.




A typical wedding was a 7-10 day affair and a lot of ceremonies and the games, music and dance incorporated in it were for people to pass time. The wedding guests used to travel from long distances to the wedding ceremony by foot or bullock carts and they stayed back to rest for a few days. Hence started all the ceremonies and whatever goes on in a wedding ceremony to fill up the time and keep the guests entertained for those 7 days.

This happened in ancient India and is still followed to some extent, I don't know how significant it is to what you call as Pakistani culture.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> This topic is probably discussed 1000 times before.



Just another day @ pdf...


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Icewolf said:


> Pakistani culture is IVC indian culture is *dravidian* and ganges



Assuming that we all believe you say, 

If Indian culture is Dravidian, then why do Pakistanis claim Nizam state of Hyderabad lost to India?


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## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> To be honest I'm happy Joe Shearer is here to calm down the retards from making outrageous statements.
> 
> Pdf should make joe shearer a mod for his fairness and his undeniable scholarly ability. My two cents. *The rest of the Indians are morons.*



So are you. 

So I guess it takes one to know one.


----------



## Bhairava

ajtr said:


> I wonder if he even read that extract or carefully saw that pic before posting it



Now that is asking too much from our resident Pakistani Modi-fan...


----------



## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> This topic is probably discussed 1000 times before.


Actually starting same topic it again and again tends to remind the confused minds that Ah we are different or we are this or that.In all the melee actual identity culture is lost.


----------



## Agni5000

Icewolf said:


> *In India the Muslims established a number of slave trade centres. Besides Delhi and cities in Bengal there is mention of Badaon in Uttar Pradesh and Mandor in Rajasthan.62 But of course from the narrative of the chroniclers it appears that slave markets existed in almost all important places in the country, for slaves were also sold in fairs held in major cities. In this inhuman business the Hindus were not interested. Firstly, they were themselves at the receiving end, they themselves were the victims. And secondly, as W.H. Moreland points out, &#8220;We may infer from della Valle&#8217;s statements that the principal Hindus at Surat - perhaps the most humane people that ever lived - disapproved entirely of slavery.&#8221; Now few people are as good traders as Gujaratis. They would have excelled if they had taken to slave-trading. But catching and selling of slaves did not fit in with the Hindu psyche. Although, commenting on the statement of della Valle, Moreland says, &#8220;but I do not think that this remark can be extended to Hindus generally&#8230; though in Akbar&#8217;s time at least it did not secure the approval of all Hindus&#8230; The existence of slavery is testified to by the travellers Abdur Razak, Conti and Barbosa.&#8221;63 It would be safe to presume that it prevailed in the Deccan, because it prevailed farther north in the country whence the Deccan dynasties had sprung and we may believe Nikitin&#8217;s statement that in his time there was a trade in &#8216;Black people&#8217; in Bidar.&#8221;64 But the trade was carried on by Muslims and not Hindus, for Moreland adds that in 1643, &#8220;a Nayak, or chief, rejected a Dutch request for leave to buy up to 1000 slaves yearly on the ground that the sale of human being was not only a scandal but a sin.&#8221;*
> 
> 
> 
> *But the Portuguese in this matter followed the custom of the Muslims. &#8220;Linschoten recorded that they never worked, but employed slaves, who were sold daily in the market like beasts, and della Valle notes that the &#8216;greatest part&#8217; of people in Goa were slaves.&#8221;66 The Portuguese not only employed Indian slaves for domestic and other duties, but they also regularly brought slaves from Abyssinia and Mozambique for sale at good price in Goa and Surat. They dominated the Indian seas where they pirated non-chalantly, captured slaves and sold them in the markets of Hugli, Tamluk, Pipli, St. Thome, Ceylon and Goa. Pyrard (1608-11) observed that goods of all the world must pass Ormuz and pay tribute to the Portuguese.67 It so happened that their Governor in Hugli, Manoel Travers, infuriated Shahjahan when as a prince, he was in rebellion and in a helpless position. Travers seized some of the prince&#8217;s richly laden boats and carried away some of Mumtaz Mahall&#8217;s slave girls. When Shahjahan became king he ordered the Mughal governor of Bengal to chastise the Portuguese. After a sanguinary battle on the famous river port Hugli in 1632 they were expelled from Bengal.68 As a matter of fact the people of India hailed the other European adventurers as liberators from Portuguese tyranny, their forcible conversions and their obnoxious slave trade.69*
> 
> *You had alot of self respect on this *



WTF this?? Have you taken today's pill?


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Don Jaguar said:


> This topic is probably discussed 1000 times before.




Lets enjoy it for the 1001th time


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## scorpionx

Icewolf said:


> Pakistani culture is IVC *indian culture is dravidian and ganges*





Icewolf said:


> Well for one there was elements of IVC stolen by Hinduism such as worshipping of cow and the Swastika.. .There are also proof *Vedas may have been written in Pakistan*


Spiral confusion



RazPaK said:


> To be honest I'm happy Joe Shearer is here to calm down the retards from making outrageous statements.


Good luck JS


----------



## Bhairava

So finally how much of Pakistani culture is Indian ?


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## illusion8

RazPaK said:


> To be honest I'm happy Joe Shearer is here to calm down the retards from making outrageous statements.
> 
> Pdf should make joe shearer a mod for his fairness and his undeniable scholarly ability. My two cents. The rest of the Indians are morons.




Going by your logic - the 8 mods are the worthies the rest of the Pakistani's here are morons...right

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## ajtr

scorpionx said:


> Spiral confusion


Hence the thread to clear confusion but instead of clearing it makes icewolf types more confused coz of khichdi culture that resulted overtime............

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Still they were all subordinate to Shah Jahan and history remembers only him.
> 
> In a similar way, you guys were probably conscripts toiling away under foreign masters and fighting their wars. Actually you know what ? You are doing that even now - fighting America's GWOT. I guess not much has changed.



Mughals gave us the platform to spread islam.

And they treated muslims equally so we didn't fought their war we fought our own.

Also if history just knows shah jahan then he was born in lahore my home town.


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## vsdoc

Bhairava said:


> So finally how much of Pakistani culture is Indian ?



Quite a lot actually.

We just have a line in the middle that keeps the two sides apart.


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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> can someone define what is pakistani culture or what is indian culture first....



I am too trying to figure it out since morning will get back to you when I get an answer. 

But according to PDF members here, what pakistanis dont like to see in their new generation is *Indian culture* & something that they want to follow which never existed before 1947 or they are not sure if it existed weather it was Arabian or Turkic or Afghani or Indian is* Pakistan culture.*


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## ajtr

Bhairava said:


> So finally how much of Pakistani culture is Indian ?


may be 2kg.............or some other unit if you have to measure the culture plz tell...................

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## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> Actually starting same topic it again and again tends to remind the confused minds that Ah we are different or we are this or that.In all the melee actual identity culture is lost.



Well the actual topic was not this but now it is dragged here.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> Mughals gave us the platform to spread islam.



Well then you did a very bad job. Not considering that fact you needed a Turko-Mongol dynasty to give you the platform.



Don Jaguar said:


> And they treated muslims equally so we didn't fought their war we fought our own.



Still they were the rulers and you - like the rest of us - were just subjects. Actually I wasn't even a subject. Our places were never under Mughal rule.

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## Sashan

Asim Aquil said:


> All wedding culture is Pakistani.



Care to explain this further?


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## Bhairava

vsdoc said:


> Quite a lot actually.
> 
> We *just have a line in the middle* that keeps the two sides apart.



Masallah...


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> Mughals gave us the platform to spread islam.


werent the kings before mughals muslim-slave dynasty,lodhi,etc.



> And they treated muslims equally so we didn't fought their war we fought our own.


like what....?



> Also if history just knows shah jahan then he was born in lahore my home town.


So............?



kumarkumar1867 said:


> I am too trying to figure it out since morning will get back to you when I get an answer.
> 
> But according to PDF members here, what pakistanis dont like to see in their new generation is *Indian culture* & something that they want to follow which never existed before 1947 or they are not sure if it existed weather it was Arabian or Turkic or Afghani or Indian is* Pakistan culture.*


nothing but confusion hence urge to prove "we are different"


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> Well the actual topic was not this but now it is dragged here.


Always happens in every thread IVC/culture/collor rules..........................


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## Bhairava

Well to be fair to Pakistanis, not all of them can be said to be having Indian culture....the regions that comprise Pakistan now was the playground for various invaders over the centuries and hence Pakistanis have a little bit of everything - Indian, Arab, Persian, Turkic and even some Greek...

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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Well then you did a very bad job. Not considering that fact you needed a Turko-Mongol dynasty to give you the platform.
> 
> 
> 
> Still they were the rulers and you - like the rest of us - were just subjects. Actually I wasn't even a subject. Our places were never under Mughal rule.



We needed muslims to gave us a platform and we got it.

Their army was majority converts.

Yeah we ruled and you forgot about lahori muslim king shah jahan.

Shah Jahan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## vsdoc

future_bound said:


> hindu b***h ??



Listen arsewipe, you cannot call a lady a b***h with or without the asterices.

Maybe that's what you've been exposed to at home, but spare us the grossness of your dysfunctional upbringing.

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## ajtr

Bhairava said:


> Well to be fair to Pakistanis, not all of them can be said to be having Indian culture....the regions that comprise Pakistan now was the playground for various invaders over the centuries and hence Pakistanis have a little bit of everything - Indian, Arab, Persian, Turkic and even some Greek...


There is nothing like Indian culture.its all big khichdi of multiculture/subculture.same goes for pakistan.


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> Read what Pakistani text books say about mughals and you will be shocked..



Suggest something worth reading please, I am allergic to crap & BS literature or texts.




> Maybe a very very few people are converted by them but overwhelming majority are converts by sufis and saints.





Don Jaguar said:


> Again the same thing that we explained before.
> 
> Forceful conversion.



Nope you didnt get the point.
Rajput were used as asset or weapons by Moghul emperors. Many of them were serving emperors & converted peacefully to please royal families & get more closer to king or show more loyality to king. Of course there was possibility of conversion due to beauty or mightyness of islamic philosophy.

But talking about rest, we are living in entire different era, in ancient india, kings were worshipped like demigods. If invaders defeated king in war & king surrendered his religion & kingdom to invader entire population used to follow king & get converted due to loyality of king or fear of jiziya or prosecutions. Such things specially occured in north india & east india. 
This is what i say forceful conversion. 

Do I need to tell you how war mongerer or offensive muslim invaders were against Kaafir Rajas & Infedals ruling Jahilyaaan in those times??


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> We needed muslims to gave us a platform and we got it.
> 
> Their army was majority converts.



I dont think there was anything particularly proud in fighting somebody else's war under orders from foreign masters.

There was nothing to be proud of in saying Ji Alanpanah and giving your life to some Afghan or Turco-Mongol..

Now I get the reason why the Afghans scorn you Pakistani Punjabis like hell.


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## Sashan

future_bound said:


> @ ajtr
> 
> There are flags of both india and Pakistan with your username
> 
> *Are you Muslim or a hindu b***h* ??



What a dimwitted question. Hope mods are watching.


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## vsdoc

ajtr said:


> Whats that..........?



A female dog.

Cahnge your flag please.


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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> I dont think there was anything particularly proud in fighting somebody else's war under orders from foreign masters.
> 
> There was nothing to be proud of in saying Ji Alanpanah and giving your life to some Afghan or Turco-Mongol..



Muslim saints were killed by hindus before muslim invasion we needed protection and we got it.

But in general invaders were there for their greater goal. Islam was just one point.


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## Bhairava

Don Jaguar said:


> Muslim saints were killed by hindus before muslim invasion we needed protection and we got it.
> 
> But in general invaders were there for their greater goal. Islam was just one point.



Is this the justification you guys invent for working under foreign invaders ?

But I agree with you - the invaders were here for many purposes - looting, killing, rapine and also for spreading Islam.


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## INDIC

Pakistani culture is the copy of India culture.


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## Joe Shearer

future_bound said:


> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> 
> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!


One more ignorant expert. Can you explain the the Upanishads, the Puranas, and the epics in terms of their origins in what is now Pakistan? Or the Buddha and the sites of his preaching? Or Mahavira? Do you also believe that the Sungas, Kharavela, the Satavahanas, the Guptas, Lalitaditya, the Maukharis, the Vakatakas, the Chalukyas, their successors the Hoysalas, the Kakatiyas, the Yadavas, and the Kalachuri, the Rastrakutas, the Gurjara-Pratiharas, the Palas, the Senas, and the Chola, the Pallava before them, the Pandyas, the Cheras were relics of Pakistani history? Has Pakistan got anything to do with Patanjali? or with ANY of this list?




> Aryabhata
> Bhaskara I
> Brahmagupta
> Mahavira
> Pavuluri Mallana
> Varahamihira
> Shridhara
> Bhaskara II
> Hemachandra
> Pingala
> Panini



Or do you claim any of these authors? 

Shudraka
Bhasa
Asvaghosha
Kalidasa
Dandin
Sriharsha

Or oF these in the passage below? Did you know that the One Thousand Nights and One Night was modeled on this style. Of a story within a story within a story? Or that Aesop's Fables, the Adventures of Reynard, were derived from the Panchatantra?



> The two most important collections are Panchatantra and Hitopadesha; originally intended as manuals for the instruction of kings in domestic and foreign policy, they belong to the class of literature which the Hindus call n&#299;ti-&#347;&#257;stra, or "Science of Political Ethics".
> Other notable prose works include a collection of pretty and ingenious fairy tales, with a highly Oriental colouring, the Vet&#257;la-panchavi&#7747;&#347;ati or "Twenty-five Tales of the Vet&#257;la" (a demon supposed to occupy corpses), the Si&#7747;h&#257;sana-dv&#257;tri&#7747;çik&#257; or "Thirty-two Stories of the Lion-seat" (i.e. throne), which also goes by the name of Vikrama-charita, or "Adventures of Vikrama" and the &#346;uka-saptati, or "Seventy Stories of a Parrot". These three collections of fairy tales are all written in prose and are comparatively short.
> Somadeva's Kath&#257;-sarit-s&#257;gara or "Ocean of Rivers of Stories" is a work of special importance: composed in verse and of very considerable length, it contains more than 22,000 shlokas, equal to nearly one-fourth of the Mah&#257;bh&#257;rata. Like Kshemendra's Brhatkathamanjari and Budhasvamin's B&#7771;hatkath&#257;&#347;lokasa&#7747;graha, it derives from Gunadhya's Brihatkatha.

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## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> werent the kings before mughals muslim-slave dynasty,lodhi,etc.



Yes it was but we got what we wanted their internal fight doesn't matter.



ajtr said:


> So............?



He demanded a name of any king from present day Pakistan who ruled india i gave him two.


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> *Muslim saints were killed by hindus before muslim invasion we needed protection and we got it.*
> 
> But in general invaders were there for their greater goal. Islam was just one point.


This is what called manufactured rage.Happened during burma riots right here on pdf.

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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> Yes you are right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.



How do you come to that conclusion? All the texts, all the scriptures were written on the slopes of the Himalayas, and the banks of the Ganges. Is that now part of Pakistan?


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## Don Jaguar

Bhairava said:


> Is this the justification you guys invent for working under foreign invaders ?



Sort of.



Bhairava said:


> But I agree with you - the invaders were here for many purposes - looting, killing, rapine and also for spreading Islam.



Expanding empire their greater goal, saints got a platform lucky for us.

Looting : No way they made india the biggest economy of their time.

Raping : Not needed they got lots of harems.


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## KRAIT

Joe Shearer said:


> One more ignorant expert. Can you explain the the Upanishads, the Puranas, and the epics in terms of their origins in what is now Pakistan? Or the Buddha and the sites of his preaching? Or Mahavira? Do you also believe that the Sungas, Kharavela, the Satavahanas, the Guptas, Lalitaditya, the Maukharis, the Vakatakas, the Chalukyas, their successors the Hoysalas, the Kakatiyas, the Yadavas, and the Kalachuri, the Rastrakutas, the Gurjara-Pratiharas, the Palas, the Senas, and the Chola, the Pallava before them, the Pandyas, the Cheras were relics of Pakistani history? Has Pakistan got anything to do with Patanjali? or with ANY of this list?
> 
> Or do you claim any of these authors? Shudraka Bhasa Asvaghosha Kalidasa Dandin
> Sriharsha
> 
> Or oF these in the passage below? Did you know that the One Thousand Nights and One Night was modeled on this style. Of a story within a story within a story? Or that Aesop's Fables, the Adventures of Reynard, were derived from the Panchatantra?


Identity crisis takes a toll Joe Sir. Hindus population decreasing in Pakistan is something they feel proud of. The whole world knows about Upanishads and Vedas but for some it doesn't matter. They call themselves IVC holder, Muslims that ruled India and what not. 

Ask any Arab or Persian and they can answer what the reality is. In this land of India, Jainism and most importantly Buddhism flourished.


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> Yes it was but we got what we wanted their internal fight doesn't matter.


Who were "we" and who were "they"





> He demanded a name of any king from present day Pakistan who ruled india i gave him two.


but pakistan istelf was india then.........big deal..........


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## Joe Shearer

future_bound said:


> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> 
> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!!



It should pain the Pakistanis more considering that this represents a gross betrayal of the promises and commitments made by Jinnah to the minorities at the time of forming Pakistan.

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## Don Jaguar

Joe Shearer said:


> How do you come to that conclusion? All the texts, all the scriptures were written on the slopes of the Himalayas, and the banks of the Ganges. Is that now part of Pakistan?


 
And some of your fellows separating IVC from hinduism see previous pages.

DesertFox explained this very properly but i am unable to find that thread.


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## KRAIT

Don Jaguar said:


> Sort of.
> Expanding empire their greater goal, saints got a platform lucky for us.
> Looting : No way they made india the biggest economy of their time
> Raping : Not needed they got lots of harems.


They didn't made India the biggest economy. India was already before the invasion. They just looted and took it under their control.

BTW $ 20 billion worth treasure was found in Southern temple, which remained safe from Muslim invaders and Britishers. Its 5 times your defense budget. So they came for the wealth of this Indian subcontinent not that they brought wealth along with them,

Raping: Well we all know who were the culprit. It was always a mean to convert or create new generation of their blood just like 71 war. Remember the reason behind it.

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## vsdoc

Pakistan cannot and will not be comfortable with its Hindu Indian past as long as India remains. And a Hindu predominant India.

Anyways, there is a significant part of Pakistan which seems to be a cusp culture which is by blood more Iranic, though politically and institutionally influenced (or subverted?) by the Indian part. 

That is the simple truth. 

You can close the thread now.

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## Sashan

KRAIT said:


> *They didn't made India the biggest economy*. India was already before the invasion. They just looted and took it under their control.
> 
> BTW $ 20 billion worth treasure was found in Southern temple, which remained safe from Muslim invaders and Britishers. Its 5 times your defense budget. So they came for the wealth of this Indian subcontinent not that they brought wealth along with them,
> 
> Raping: Well we all know who were the culprit. It was always a mean to convert or create new generation of their blood just like 71 war. Remember the reason behind it.



I might disagree on that. Our own Manmohan famously quoted the high point in Indian GDP to be 1700 and the low point 1952.


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## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> Who were "we" and who were "they"



We muslims of sub continent and they lodhi dynasty and mughal empire. 

but pakistan istelf was india then.........big deal..........[/QUOTE]

That's what we are discussing here, sub continent is not all india.


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## pakistanmyblood

pakistan desperatly needs to rid itself of these hindu customs and traditions. the sooner it leaves the better. 

look at the youth following indian hindu traditions. it shoule be banned in pakistan completely 






look at 1:10 the boy is preforming puja which is entirly unIslamic


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> *Muslim saints were killed by hindus before muslim invasion *we needed protection and we got it.



Lol..... Who told you ?? Some Mullah from madarsaa with a bounty on his head??

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## Jackdaws

He is a kid. Cut him some slack. I used to read the Bible as a kid - I didn't become a Christian.

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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> We muslims of sub continent and they lodhi dynasty and mughal empire.


 so "they" were not muslims?





> That's what we are discussing here, sub continent is not all india.


So what was called india ?-land of indus or was it pakistan then?Waise people do say in pakistan that pakistan formed when first muslim came to india.Alas kerala is not in pakistan.



kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol..... Who told you ?? Some Mullah from madarsaa with a bounty on his head??


bedtime stories................


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## Don Jaguar

KRAIT said:


> They didn't made India the biggest economy. India was already before the invasion. They just looted and took it under their control.



Before islam yes it was but in early 15th century it became 2 largest then mughals made it largest once again in 17th century. 



KRAIT said:


> Raping: Well we all know who were the culprit. It was always a mean to convert or create new generation of their blood just like 71 war. Remember the reason behind it.



Crap.


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## KRAIT

Don Jaguar said:


> We muslims of sub continent and they lodhi dynasty and mughal empire.
> 
> but pakistan istelf was india then.........big deal..........



That's what we are discussing here, sub continent is not all india.[/QUOTE]Kindly go through India and Hindustan words origin. 

Being closed minded results in less understanding of the subject. Put ego aside and think rationally. 

Trace back the ancestry of the people living in India and Pakistan. How Islam spread and how Hinduism and Islam adapted and coexisted in this land ?

Culture evolves with time. Many aspects get attached with each religion. One can't find the explicit content but evolution of Culture in Pakistan (almost all are Muslims) and in India (Hindus, Muslims Sikhs Christians, Jain, Buddhist etc.) took different routes. 

Many things remained same while other changed. It depends on the majority of people and cultural exchange among various religions. 

The geographical location also plays a role in culture evolution. Festivals are based on weather, date, season etc.

I won't say their is hell lot of similarity of culture of Pakistan and India but one can see debatable similarity of Indian and Pakistani culture.

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## ajtr

Sashan said:


> I might disagree on that. Our own Manmohan famously quoted the high point in Indian GDP to be 1700 and the low point 1952.


MMS also says that british rule was good for india.Infact MMS is His Master's Voice (HMV)


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## KRAIT

Don Jaguar said:


> Before islam yes it was but in early 15th century it became 2 largest then mughals made it largest once again in 17th century.
> Crap.


Then you know nothing about the reason of these crimes which were the basis along with savage nature of the invaders.


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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol..... Who told you ?? Some Mullah from madarsaa with a bounty on his head??



Nops my forefathers are one of them.


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## Srinivas

Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.



Don't be delusional. IVC is more related to Dravidian culture and the language URDU is originated from great place called India.
Your music is Hindustani classical music which agin originated from India.

There are endless things which are originated from India, followed by world.


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## Sashan

ajtr said:


> MMS also says that british rule was good for india.Infact MMS is His Master's Voice (HMV)




His quote on the former was based upon certain statistics provided by a Cambridge historian Angus Maddison while his quote about the British rule is his subjective opinion. 

Angus Maddison mentioned that the Indian GDP in 1700 is 22.6% of the world GDP while in 1952 it was 3.8%.

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## vsdoc

KRAIT said:


> Then you know nothing about the reason of these crimes which were the basis along with savage nature of the invaders.



There is an interesting footnote we could discuss, when speaking of culture, since the topic is still active.

Indian and Punjabi/Sindhi/Bangla muslims and Indian Hindus are essentially from the same stock.

I guess historically no one denies that these all moved down as one over thousands of years, predominantly as Hindus.

Yet today we see that not just culturally, but even in terms of mindset and psyche, these two exhibit significantly different patterns.

What could have influenced this sub-evolutionary pattern?

Do we see such a phenomenon anywhere else in the world as well?

Are there trends that emerge? Any similarities between diverse cohorts?

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## ajtr

KRAIT said:


> Then you know nothing about the reason of these crimes which were the basis along with savage nature of the invaders.


There are always ways to justify ones attackers by manufacturing rage through stories of partition,saint killing etc or even using some riots and film on the obscure corner of the earth to go on rampage.These being normal raison d'être of such people


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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> So what was called india ?-land of indus or was it pakistan then?Waise people do say in pakistan that pakistan formed when first muslim came to india.Alas kerala is not in pakistan.



So british fooled Pakistanis by giving them few Western Indian states instead of giving of real Pakistan.


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## MilSpec

Is this still a defence forum??


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## KRAIT

pakistanmyblood said:


> Islam is not savage. maybe your religion that drinks cow piss and has low dalits is


No one said Islam is savage, I called those invaders savage. Improve your comprehension skills especially for English. 

Were those invaders saints, who killed, raped loot the people of this sub-continent ? According to me they were ruthless savages.


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## INDIC

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost *entirely* in modern-day Pakistan.



Chinese dragon, its not entirely but largest share. Pakistanis also claim huge history from the Indian side. 

If they stop claiming Delhi Sultanate and Mughal Empire from the Indian side, their whole history would be void.


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## Arya Desa

The hatred that flows through the vains of people like RazPak makes me lose hope for humanity. How can you be so consumed by the thoughts of "Hindus"? India isn't even a hindu country its a mix of multiple religions. Moreover their isnt even a real hinduism, each region practices its own forms and believes. Shame on you RazPak; Your mother must feel so ashamed of you.


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## Srinivas

Joe Shearer said:


> How do you come to that conclusion? All the texts, all the scriptures were written on the slopes of the Himalayas, and the banks of the Ganges. Is that now part of Pakistan?



very true buddy In Vedas and Upanishads the rivers with significance are ganga, yamuna and sarswathi. They don't mention river sindhu.


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## vsdoc

Arya Desa said:


> The hatred that flows through the vains of people like RazPak makes me lose hope for humanity. How can you be so consumed by the thoughts of "Hindus"? India isn't even a hindu country its a mix of multiple religions. Moreover their isnt even a real hinduism, each region practices its own forms and believes. Shame on you RazPak; Your mother must feel so ashamed of you.



Dont mind him.

He's a moron.

Like most of the rest of us.

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## Don Jaguar

ajtr said:


> There are always ways to justify ones attackers by manufacturing rage through stories of partition,*saint killing* etc or even using some riots and film on the obscure corner of the earth to go on rampage.These being normal raison d'être of such people



Qutbuddin, Abu Ali Qasim, Umar Shajari names of my forefathers killd by hindus in india in 7th century.

:: Nowgawan Sadat ::

Syed Mohammad Jawad Abidi. 

Naugawan Sadat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## pk_baloch

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.



100/100...............

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## KRAIT

vsdoc said:


> There is an interesting footnote we could discuss, when speaking of culture, since the topic is still active.
> 
> Indian and Punjabi/Sindhi/Bangla muslims and Indian Hindus are essentially from the same stock.
> 
> I guess historically no one denies that these all moved down as one over thousands of years, predominantly as Hindus.
> 
> Yet today we see that not just culturally, but even in terms of mindset and psyche, these two exhibit significantly different patterns.
> 
> What could have influenced this sub-evolutionary pattern?
> 
> Do we see such a phenomenon anywhere else in the world as well?
> 
> Are there trends that emerge? Any similarities between diverse cohorts?


If one wants to understand the evolution of cultures and influence on one another, he/she has to study demographic processes like immigration, emigration, natural growth rate, distribution based on income, religion etc. 

Communication among the people living in nearby and distant places. 

Industrialization, education structured of other religion or region comes into important factor.

Now one has to understand the time period and intensity of influence.

So in terms of mindset and psyche, one has to see the change over decades and generation wise. 

For example: the culture followed by current generation is different from the previous generation even when there was no conversion or change in family structure. The parents of certain people who lived in villages and their kids born in cities, the communication and information they are exposed through TV, interne, mobile phones etc. Whether it comes to worship, view about elders, nation, festivals etc.

I haven't touched the other factors still you can determine impact of these factors.


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## INDIC

Don Jaguar said:


> Qutbuddin, Abu Ali Qasim, Umar Shajari names of my forefathers killd by hindus in india in 7th century.
> 
> :: Nowgawan Sadat ::
> 
> Syed Mohammad Jawad Abidi.
> 
> Naugawan Sadat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The article is incomplete. No mention of killing etc. , wikipedia page is redirecting to a town in Uttar Pradesh.


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> Our ancestors didn't told us this, provide reason for that.




You mean you expected them to tell you that you were the sons and daughters of such forcible unions?


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## Armstrong

How much of Pakistani culture is Indian ? Answer : As much as Urdu is Hindi and Hindi is Urdu ! Which is to say, I believe, that we more or less began from the same source but with the advent of Islam there was a drastic paradigmatic shift that saw both of us evolving in different directions ! As much as Islam provides you a way of life so does the dharmic or the vedic way (whatever the correct term maybe...apologies !) so when Islam was incorporated into our daily lives naturally we changed in significant ways but because we are still part of this land our Islam too got influenced by that ! 

Okay peace out ! I'm in the office right now & my supervisor is giving me the angry looks !

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## Dubious

cb4 said:


> i have visited* North African countries *and there people too have involved themselves with this Indian crap. Something needs to be done fast to stop it growing. Already, this influence has caused most of the world to think that India and Pakistan to be the same. I say shoot the bas**ds that go to India for film shoot!



2 theories: 1 is that it is well known that the 1st migration of human was out of Africa...Hence, there may be a lot of similarities between the 2 cultures with African being the root...If that is the case then what you thought of as Indian culture in Africa may ACTUALLY be the root of Indian culture which is African

2nd theory: ALOT of people from the subcontinent moved to Africa sometime ago...You may have seen some countries which were much influenced by those migrant Africans of Indian descent??


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## scorpionx

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> very true buddy In Vedas and Upanishads the rivers with significance are ganga, yamuna and sarswathi.* They don't mention river sindhu*.


It has been mentioned(or more than that). Again and again..


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## Don Jaguar

Gigawatt said:


> The article is incomplete. No mention of killing etc. , wikipedia page is redirecting to a town in Uttar Pradesh.



Hazrat Imam Ali Ibne Abi Talib (as) Hazrat Umar Ashraf had married to daughter of Imam Hasan Mujataba (as), had only son Ali Asghar Muhaddis who had 3 sons Qutbuddin, Abu Ali Qasim, Umar Shajari, *they became Shaheed in Namaz-e-Tahajjud in the morning by Hindus in India*. In his place came his brother Kamalul Haq. Syed Ali Peer Baba s/o

He used the word shaheed.



Joe Shearer said:


> You mean you expected them to tell you that you were the sons and daughters of such forcible unions?



forceful conversion never happened.


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian ? Answer : As much as Urdu is Hindi and Hindi is Urdu ! Which is to say, I believe, *that we more or less began from the same source but with the advent of Islam there was a drastic paradigmatic shift that saw both of us evolving in different directions *! As much as Islam provides you a way of life so does the dharmic or the vedic way (whatever the correct term maybe...apologies !) so when Islam was incorporated into our daily lives naturally we changed in significant ways but because we are still part of this land our Islam too got influenced by that !
> 
> Okay peace out ! I'm in the office right now & my supervisor is giving me the angry looks !



That is actually one of the best summations of the question yet.
There was a lot in common between the sides.. as it is still today.. Islam made it different for the pre-partition Muslims..
and then Pakistans needless shoving of Islamic identity down everyone throats by the likes of maududi when it already existed well and distinct created a further divide.
But to all those crying that we are entirely different.. well then ban the Bhangra in Lahore if you dare.. All the cultural activities.. because they do have a lot in common.
It was the Islamic values that made us distinct... a culture that had evolved for hundreds of years in the rulers of Northwest and Southeast.. and a culture that needed to be separate to blossom...and it did for a while.. 
till the very goons that opposed Pakistan came to rule its roost.

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## my2cents

Icewolf said:


> New title should be how much of Pakistani culture is Indian. Indians have copied our IVC culture and tradition, religion, language etc.




We Hindus still read our Vedas and Upanishads with reverence because of its historic roots and its wisdom. We have kept the ancient rituals alive adapting it to our current cultural milieu. We are the ones following our fore bearers and carrying the torch of continuity forward. 

Now you guys have no idea of what IVC culture is??? If you know please elaborate, then we will talk.


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## vsdoc

KRAIT said:


> If one wants to understand the evolution of cultures and influence on one another, he/she has to study demographic processes like immigration, emigration, natural growth rate, distribution based on income, religion etc.
> 
> Communication among the people living in nearby and distant places.
> 
> Industrialization, education structured of other religion or region comes into important factor.
> 
> Now one has to understand the time period and intensity of influence.
> 
> So in terms of mindset and psyche, one has to see the change over decades and generation wise.
> 
> For example: the culture followed by current generation is different from the previous generation even when there was no conversion or change in family structure. The parents of certain people who lived in villages and their kids born in cities, the communication and information they are exposed through TV, interne, mobile phones etc. Whether it comes to worship, view about elders, nation, festivals etc.
> 
> I haven't touched the other factors still you can determine impact of these factors.



In ADDITION to all these universal sub-cultural modifiers, the fact remains that in spite of the fact that they are essentially the same people mass EQUALLY influenced by all these factors (a large cohort), they are different to the larger cohort.

Maybe not across all demographics, but along certain behavioral cues for sure. 

Where a Keralite muslim would have more in common with a Karachi muslim than a Keralite hindu.

As a broad example of course.


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## humanfirst

Joe Shearer said:


> One more ignorant expert. Can you explain the the Upanishads, the Puranas, and the epics in terms of their origins in what is now Pakistan? Or the Buddha and the sites of his preaching? Or Mahavira? Do you also believe that the Sungas, Kharavela, the Satavahanas, the Guptas, Lalitaditya, the Maukharis, the Vakatakas, the Chalukyas, their successors the Hoysalas, the Kakatiyas, the Yadavas, and the Kalachuri, the Rastrakutas, the Gurjara-Pratiharas, the Palas, the Senas, and the Chola, the Pallava before them, the Pandyas, the Cheras were relics of Pakistani history? Has Pakistan got anything to do with Patanjali? or with ANY of this list?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or do you claim any of these authors?
> 
> Shudraka
> Bhasa
> Asvaghosha
> Kalidasa
> Dandin
> Sriharsha


Having discussed history with several pakistanis,i was amazed that they don't know zilch about pre Islamic south asian history apart from a map of indus valley civilization.All they know is some cleverly manipulated bits and pieces of history suited to profess some non existent superiority.They don't know about the great empires in south asia ,which,over various periods,had extended their bounderies upto afghanistan in west and present day indonesia in east.They dont know about the mathematical theories of aryabhatta or Political science of Panchathantra or poetry of kalidasa or medical treatises of charaka and works on surgery by susruta..I think the root cause is their desperate need to have a superior identity of their own(after failed arab-persian-afghan-isation attempts) and willingness to lie,erase and distort history for that cause..


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## IND151

RazPaK said:


> The Indians are completely accomplice to globalism. While some people in cities make you feel that Indian culture is dominant,* the truth is most Pakistanis do not give importance to bollywood/indians.*



so impact of Bollywood and Indian culture is more in mega cities due to more exposure to media?


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## pk_baloch

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.




i agree with u :-

Data Ganj Bakhsh.
Khawaja moinuddin chisti 
Mujadid -e-alf-sani
Lal shabaz qalandar 
Sheikh bahauddin zakriya were the main sufis and saints who worked for the spread of islam in south asia........

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## INDIC

vsdoc said:


> Dont mind him.
> 
> He's a moron.
> 
> Like most of the rest of us.



He is not moron but his education system have raised him in that way. If you will see the Pakistan movie Border, you will understand the extent of Hindu hatred being propagated in their country. I am not surprised if Pakistanis Hindus are flocking to India in large numbers.


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## vsdoc

Gigawatt said:


> He is not moron but his education system have raised him in that way. If you will see the Pakistan movie Border, you will understand the extent of Hindu hatred being propagated in their country. I am not surprised if Pakistanis Hindus are flocking to India in large numbers.



I think he's generally pretty harmless man.

Its the smooth moderates you need to look out for.


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## IND151

well there are many similarities in both Pak and Indian culture as both were part of British India and even before that Muslims and Hindus co existed in sub continent for hundreds of years

but north Indian culture has more similarities with Pak culture, as *most north India w*as under *Mughal rule *along with * large chunks of present day Pak, BD*


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## INDIC

pk_baloch said:


> i agree with u :-
> 
> Data Ganj Bakhsh.
> Khawaja moinuddin chisti
> Mujadid -e-alf-sani
> Lal shabaz qalandar
> Sheikh bahauddin zakriya were the main sufis and saints who worked for the spread of islam in south asia........



Was Mahmud of Ghazni also a sufi saint.


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## SQ8

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.



which is their own loss... Their continuous need to brand Islam as alien to their land leads to the communal tensions seen from time to time. The scars left by Aurengzaib run deep.

But then again.. many Pakistanis have also lost this message.. preferring to think that Mohammad Bin Qasim triggered some mass conversions.. instead of these Saints that would bring people into the fold of Islam through patient preaching(through the local cultural ways), kindness and acceptance... if you displayed willingness..even the slightest .. you were brought into the fold of Islam.

Unlike today where Pakistanis are guided by the bigots that rejected and opposed this country from day one..
Where all they do.. is look for excuses to thrown you out of the circle of Islam.



Gigawatt said:


> Was Mahmud of Ghazni also a sufi saint.



Was Mahmud of Ghazni all you remember?

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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> which is their own loss... Their continuous need to brand Islam as alien to their land leads to the communal tensions seen from time to time. The scars left by Aurengzaib run deep.



Islam IS alien to our land. Always will be.

How can you or any other sub-continental Muslim claim otherwise?

We are frankly least bothered by Aurangzeb or any of his ilk.

Its what we deal with today that concerns us.

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## Don Jaguar

vsdoc said:


> Islam IS alien to our land. *Always will be*



Not always.


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> Qutbuddin, Abu Ali Qasim, Umar Shajari names of my forefathers killd by hindus in india in 7th century.
> 
> :: Nowgawan Sadat ::
> 
> Syed Mohammad Jawad Abidi.
> 
> Naugawan Sadat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Did hindus marched to muslim countries killing muslim civilians & innocents??

Does counts of your ancestor exceeded 80 millions in hindu kush???


Indian genocide - Killed 80 MILLION - YouTube


The problem with Pakistanis is they whine about few dozens of muslim got killed when on contrary they remain numb on millions of hindus killed in during muslim invasion.

Hindus never invaded any muslim state or countries, it was some looters & invaders who invaded hindu areas for their personal benefits under the name of Holy War or jihad.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

vsdoc said:


> *Islam IS alien to our land. Always will be.*
> 
> How can you or any other sub-continental Mslim claim otherwise?
> 
> We are frankly least bothered by Aurangzeb or any of his ilk.
> 
> Its what we deal with today that concerns us.



If one goes back deep into history, everything is alien, including life to this planet.

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## vsdoc

Don Jaguar said:


> Not always.



Always.

It will never get close.

There are many here who have similar plans for Islam if on the verge of going under, as your generals have for us were they on the verge of being swamped.

I guess we understand each other on that score.


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## Paan Singh

The teachings of sufi saints is completely different from present islam version which is followed.
Take example of bulleshah or sultan bahu...i read their kalam's and when i look at the present islam followers,they look even million miles apart from their teachings..

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## kumarkumar1867

vsdoc said:


> Always.
> 
> It will never get close.
> 
> There are many here who have similar plans for Islam if on the verge of going under, as your generals have for us were they on the verge of being swamped.
> 
> I guess we understand each other on that score.



Islam was Alien to India before Jalaluddin Akbar. 
After that it has become a cordial artery or vein of of our culture & tradition.


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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Did hindus marched to muslim countries killing muslim civilians & innocents??
> 
> Does counts of your ancestor exceeded 80 millions in hindu kush???
> 
> 
> Indian genocide - Killed 80 MILLION - YouTube
> 
> 
> The problem with Pakistanis is they whine about few dozens of muslim got killed when on contrary they remain numb on millions of hindus killed in during muslim invasion.
> 
> Hindus never invaded any muslim state or countries, it was some looters & invaders who invaded hindu areas for their personal benefits under the name of Holy War or jihad.



Total indian population was 60 million during muslim invasion and we killed 80 million?

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## vsdoc

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Islam was Alien to India before Jalaluddin Akbar.
> After that it has become a cordial artery or vein of of our culture & tradition.



Ok.

I do not see the same at a cultural level.

Islam and Indian culture are simply from different planets.

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## kumarkumar1867

vsdoc said:


> Ok.
> 
> I do not see the same at a cultural level.
> 
> Islam and Indian culture are simply from different planets.



You are right if you are talking about cultural likes of ancient india & empires of hindu kings but present day indian culture is now incomplete without Islam.



Don Jaguar said:


> Total indian population was 30 million during muslim invasion and we killed 80 million?



Its better to do your homework before posting on International forum & wait for spoon feeding.
Its never late to learn, Google about it & educate yourself then we can talk about it.


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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Its better to do your homework before posting on International forum & wait for spoon feeding.
> Its never late to learn, Google about it & educate yourself then we can talk about it.



Hindu kush massacre is just a hoax world population was 170 million in 1000 ad and you are talking about 80 million killed in hindu kush which is very cold region and simply cannot sustain 80 million in it.

Complete lie and fabrication.


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## vsdoc

kumarkumar1867 said:


> You are right if you are talking about cultural likes of ancient india & empires of hindu kings but present day indian culture is now incomplete without Islam.



As clarified earlier, I am not a history buff. We did not even study much of the Mughal empire in the ICSE in my time.

But I am a keen student of human interactions and sociocultural dynamics. I get that from my dad.

What is Indian and inclusive about Muslims in India (and I would like to limit my first hand experience to there and there only here), is essentially Hindu.

What is equally what is divisive and intolerant and non-assimilatory and backward about them is quite simply, not.

And in each Indian Muslim you would find this dichotomy.

In varying degrees.

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## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> Was Mahmud of Ghazni also a sufi saint.


NO he was not saint ,Not Every invader can be like Mamud of ghazni .......very few invaders brought islam ...........
many muslim invaders invaded hindustan ,donot mean that they all brought islam ....

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## imperialmen

Like it or not, but Pakistan didn't exist a century back. Before that it was a part of India...... thousands of years of integrity can't be denied just because you guys separated from modern India some half a century back. 

IVC is Pakistani? Yes.... in the modern sense..... most IVC sites are located in the modern state of Pakistan. But calling it Pakistani culture, and that modern Indian culture is a derivative of it, is laughable. 

IVC was Indian, you guys were Indian.... a few years of separation from us doesn't make us different. 

And you guys please decide on one thing - many Pakistanis claim to be of European ancestry(Aryan), and claim Indians to be a darker and weaker breed, -- Australoids(Dravidians). And you guys also claim to be the descendants of IVC. These theories contradict each other. 

Again.... you guys like it or not..... Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians and Sri Lankans are all same damn people. However you twist your words..... the fact will always remain that we are all the same.

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## Don Jaguar

pk_baloch said:


> many muslim invaders invaded hindustan ,donot mean that they all brought islam ....



In fact majority were not.

When mughals came here they defaated afghan muslim sultanate, Lodhi dynasty.


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## pk_baloch

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.



yes and those IVC DRAVIDIAN PEOPLE were not hindu and the land was not called hindustan .........


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## Paan Singh

There is nothing called pakistani culture.Coz we just got separated on the bases of religion and piece of land was given but it doesnt mean to find out something own as part of culture which never been ur part.
if u feel insecurity about it then remove it by recognizing truth.


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> Hindu kush massacre is just a hoax world population was 170 million in 1000 ad and you are talking about 80 million killed in hindu kush which is very cold region and simply cannot sustain 80 million in it.
> 
> Complete lie and fabrication.



Did I say 80 million hindus were killed in one stroke by muslims???
80 millions counts comprimises the casualties done by muslim invasions from 1000 A.D (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 A.D (end of Delhi Sultanate)
On mobile right now,couldn't find the source to spoon feed you.

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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Did I say 80 million hindus were killed in one stroke by muslims???
> 80 millions counts comprimises the casualties done by muslim invasions from 1000 A.D (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 A.D (end of Delhi Sultanate)
> On mobile right now,couldn't find the source to spoon feed you.



Even if the entire population was killed it will not be that high.


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## KRAIT

imperialmen said:


> Like it or not, but Pakistan didn't exist a century back. Before that it was a part of India...... thousands of years of integrity can't be denied just because you guys separated from modern India some half a century back.
> 
> IVC is Pakistani? Yes.... in the modern sense..... most IVC sites are located in the modern state of Pakistan. But calling it Pakistani culture, and that modern Indian culture is a derivative of it, is laughable.
> 
> IVC was Indian, you guys were Indian.... a few years of separation from us doesn't make us different.
> 
> And you guys please decide on one thing - many Pakistanis claim to be of European ancestry(Aryan), and claim Indians to be a darker and weaker breed, -- Australoids(Dravidians). And you guys also claim to be the descendants of IVC. These theories contradict each other.
> 
> Again.... you guys like it or not..... Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians and Sri Lankans are all same damn people. However you twist your words..... the fact will always remain that we are all the same.


Insecurity of confused people can't be removed so easily. Just because they got a nation 65 years ago doesn't mean that their ancestors didn't visit other parts of India or the people from other part to present day Pakistan. 

You are doing this ---->

BTW if they consider themselves superior race and their religion above all, let it be. Every one does that but when some racist attacks them you can turn a blind eye. 

The culture is a very vast term and understanding it in a vast region is difficult as most of them are adapting ones changing over time with many subsets, improvised or depraved cultures.

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## Bang Galore

RazPaK said:


> But you continue to worship rats and snakes.




Let that not give anyone an idea that some here are about to start worshiping you......

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## Zarvan

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Did I say 80 million hindus were killed in one stroke by muslims???
> 80 millions counts comprimises the casualties done by muslim invasions from 1000 A.D (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 A.D (end of Delhi Sultanate)
> On mobile right now,couldn't find the source to spoon feed you.


80 Million the biggest lie in all Muslims wars very few people were killed but India needs to decide what they want if they want to take pride in Taj Mahal and Lal Qila and other such things than they should also accept events of Somnath and take pride in that to and also take pride in great Muhammad Gauri


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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Did I say 80 million hindus were killed in one stroke by muslims???
> 80 millions counts comprimises the casualties done by muslim invasions from 1000 A.D (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 A.D (end of Delhi Sultanate)
> On mobile right now,couldn't find the source to spoon feed you.



Indian population in 1000 AD was 8 crore and in 1550 it was 12 crore if 80 million are killed during this time there population should go down in this period but we are not seeing any significant change during this time.

See the population of world and below is the percentage by big countries and calculate yourself. 

http://www.worldhistorysite.com/population.html



wake said:


> dumb logic , no one said they killed in one day it might 50 to 100 years. they killed people from different generations up to 17 th cen..



Read post # 268.

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## my2cents

RazPaK said:


> I don't mean to insult anyone, but for us religion and cultural is synonymous.



So if somebody does not sport long beard is it cultural or religious. I understand some norms set for men and women by your religion, but where do draw the line.


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## kumarkumar1867

vsdoc said:


> As clarified earlier, I am not a history buff. We did not even study much of the Mughal empire in the ICSE in my time.
> 
> But I am a keen student of human interactions and sociocultural dynamics. I get that from my dad.
> 
> What is Indian and inclusive about Muslims in India (and I would like to limit my first hand experience to there and there only here), is essentially Hindu.
> 
> What is equally what is divisive and intolerant and non-assimilatory and backward about them is quite simply, not.
> 
> And in each Indian Muslim you would find this dichotomy.
> 
> In varying degrees.



Personal views may vary & be right or wrong according to personal experiences but that doesnt nullify islamic influence on our culture, arts, architecture, music, etc. 

Since 1400 AD or so, India does not means a land for sole hindus.

Hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence, harmony, religious bondings, etc has resulted in Indianness which binds all indian together. Majority of indians have learnt to judge peoples by indianness not by their religion.

We including indian muslims love Tipu Sultan & Akbar who proved to be loyal son of mother india but hate Aurangazeb who wanted to harm the indian diversity & indian unity nobody counts religion while hating it.

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## ALOK31

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Personal views may vary & be right or wrong according to personal experiences but that doesnt nullify islamic influence on our culture, arts, architecture, music, etc.
> 
> Since 1400 AD or so, India does not means a land for sole hindus.
> 
> *Hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence, harmony, religious bondings, etc has resulted in Indianness which binds all indian together. Majority of indians have learnt to judge peoples by indianness not by their religion.
> 
> We including indian muslims love Tipu Sultan & Akbar who proved to be loyal son of mother india but hate Aurangazeb who wanted to harm the indian diversity & indian unity nobody counts religion while hating it.*


bold part i 100% agree with u.

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## Srinivas

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.



Ignorant post from a non south asian, There are ancient sites which are yet to be explored.

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## Fireurimagination

Pakistani culture is 1400 year old Islamic culture imported from the middle east; dancing, singing, painting, idol worshiping etc i.e. the native culture (Vedic, pre-IVC to till date) is all against Islam; Pakistanis are a confused lot who themselves don't understand where are they coming from or what do they want?

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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> Even if the entire population was killed it will not be that high.





Zarvan said:


> 80 Million the biggest lie in all Muslims wars very few people were killed but India needs to decide what they want if they want to take pride in Taj Mahal and Lal Qila and other such things than they should also accept events of Somnath and take pride in that to and also take pride in great Muhammad Gauri





Don Jaguar said:


> Indian population in 1000 AD was 8 crore and in 1550 it was 12 crore if 80 million are killed during this time there population should go down in this period but we are not seeing any significant change during this time.
> 
> See the population of world and below is the percentage by big countries and calculate yourself.
> 
> http://www.worldhistorysite.com/population.html



Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Even those Hindus who converted to Islam were not immune from persecution, which was illustrated by the Muslim Caste System in India as established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari.[3] where they were regarded as "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to severe discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes.[4]


Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Srinivas

cb4 said:


> i have visited North African countries and there people too have involved themselves with this Indian crap. Something needs to be done fast to stop it growing. Already, this influence has caused most of the world to think that India and Pakistan to be the same. I say shoot the bas**ds that go to India for film shoot!



Soon there will be music channels like MTV which will air bollywood songs in Africa and whole of Africa will fall in love with India. India and Africa share much in common than arabs and middle east.


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## Don Jaguar

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Even those Hindus who converted to Islam were not immune from persecution, which was illustrated by the Muslim Caste System in India as established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari.[3] where they were regarded as "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to severe discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes.[4]
> 
> 
> Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



These are just words not proof?


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## Paan Singh

Fireurimagination said:


> Pakistani culture is 1400 year old Islamic culture imported from the middle east; dancing, singing, painting, idol worshiping etc i.e. the native culture (Vedic, pre-IVC to till date) is all against Islam; Pakistanis are a confused lot who themselves don't understand where are they coming from or what do they want?



Islam came from middle east and converted many here and they are called as muslims in sub continent.


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## Don Jaguar

wake said:


> * read , study history first then talk.*
> 
> *population of India in 1000 was about 200 million and in 1500 was about 170 million. Indian subcontinent was the most populated part of world at that time.
> 
> according to growth it should be at least 300 million in 1500 but after 500 years of duration, it went back to in minus 30 as 170 million *



Give source of your information.

I have given you the source.

http://www.worldhistorysite.com/population.html


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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> These are just words not proof?



There are 100s n 1000s of forums & research reports from historians & westerners regarding it you need to search it yourself. But I know you wont dare to do it.

Even if you do find ...would you agree with them?? 

We all know your answers, Western propoganda, zionists theories, internet hindu conspiracies, etc etc.


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## Srinivas

Yogi said:


> Yes Definitely entire Pakistan n its heavenly peace loving people just came on earth from Mars on the eve of 14th Aug 1947....



Hilarious mate


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## pk_baloch

Fireurimagination said:


> Pakistani culture is 1400 year old Islamic culture imported from the middle east; dancing, singing, painting, idol worshiping etc i.e. the native culture (Vedic, pre-IVC to till date) is all against Islam; Pakistanis are a confused lot who themselves don't understand where are they coming from or what do they want?



can u tell me something about pre-dravidian life and pre- hindusium life...
hindusium is not a first religion on earth ...............


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## Joe Shearer

future_bound said:


> There is very little historical evidence to support your assertion that Islam was spread by force in the sub-continent. If the Mughals wanted, they could have converted every single hindu to islam by force and they had almost 800 years to accomplish that but they did not.
> 
> And what has converting to a different religion got to do with sacrificing self respect?? The ancestors of not only all muslims but also all european christians were once pagans like hindus as far back as 2,000 years ago. Did all the europeans lose self respect by converting to Christianity?



Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner - YouTube


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## Srinivas

RazPaK said:


> Hindus are ignorant of Islam. Thus they have to supplement their agendas.



Long before your favorite Mass murderer and invader Mohammed bin Qasim Islam came to India via sea route through merchants and islamic Imams. There is exist a lot of differences between the attitudes of Kerala muslims and the forcefull converts.


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## Don Jaguar

wake said:


> Read book ----- Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India (1000-1800) is a book by K.S. Lal published in 1973.



Nops neutral source.


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> Qutbuddin, Abu Ali Qasim, Umar Shajari names of my forefathers killd by hindus in india in 7th century.
> 
> :: Nowgawan Sadat ::
> 
> Syed Mohammad Jawad Abidi.
> 
> Naugawan Sadat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If manufactured rage is justified for jihad then sure it can be justified for say sikhs/hindus or even christian crusades or even say usa now afterall its a double edged sword.Every party will come up with sens of grievances and victim-hood and sure they will justify it too.


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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.
> 
> You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.




Much you know about it.


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## Srinivas

future_bound said:


> There is very little historical evidence to support your assertion that Islam was spread by force in the sub-continent. If the Mughals wanted, they could have converted every single hindu to islam by force and they had almost 800 years to accomplish that but they did not.
> 
> And what has converting to a different religion got to do with sacrificing self respect?? The ancestors of not only all muslims but also all european christians were once pagans like hindus as far back as 2,000 years ago. Did all the europeans lose self respect by converting to Christianity?



* Do not deny Historis facts, First thing these Barbarian Islamic Invaders did when they captured a city in Punjab or sindh is to gather all the Brahmins that exist and slaughter them who refuse to convert by branding them as infidels. These Barbarian Invaders executed thousands of Buddhists and Brahmins and burnt sacred texts in Sanskrit marking the fall of Taxila university*

Your majority ancestors got converted to Islam by force and now the ancestors call us Hindu Baniya and infidels 

There are mass rapes and Mass forced conversions that took place in Sindh after the fall of Raja Dahar (the defender of Sindh province)


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## ajtr

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.


No.Infact invaders invoked islam to justify their invasion as you doing now by saying hindus killed muslim saints hence invasion was justified.How about modi justifying the riots of gujarat based on sabarmati burning.....?


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## Phoenix89

Enough Chit chat....


Btw How was "Ek tha Tiger" ???

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## Srinivas

RazPaK said:


> But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.
> 
> You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.



*Do you know about any thing about Global warming and environmental balance. Mate there is nothing wrong to worship and take care of nature or wild animals as long as they help human life.
These days people are funding agencies for endangered species and to stop global warming, But our wise ancestors simply worshiped by seeing god in every thing that god has created.Which is a better way of doing things.*

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## Srinivas

Don Jaguar said:


> Read what Pakistani text books say about mughals and you will be shocked.
> 
> Maybe a very very few people are converted by them but overwhelming majority are converts by sufis and saints.



India is big country for mugals to control. Islam spread ended as soon as it came to India.


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## SQ8

my2cents said:


> So if somebody does not sport long beard is it *cultural or religious*. I understand some norms set for men and women by your religion, but where do draw the line.



What about religious traditions.. 
the beard is another aspect misunderstood.. by those of little understanding.
After all.. why do Hindus wear that bright orange? cultural or religious?...or perhaps a bit of both.
The beard has never been a must.. only idiots made it that way.
However, if you are to judge everything by the idiots in its realm.. then Most things in the world are horrible.. including all religions and systems.

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## Fireurimagination

pk_baloch said:


> can u tell me something about pre-dravidian life and pre- hindusium life...
> hindusium is not a first religion on earth ...............



According to Hindus yes it is..Rishi Manu being the first human, Brahma being the creator of the universe etc etc but as far as the history and cultural aspects goes IVC (Swastik signs, Lord Shiva painting) or even pre-IVC (Hindu vedas) was the native culture which had nothing to do with Islam which originated in the Middle east and which directly conflicts with the native culture


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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> I don't mean to insult anyone, but for us religion and cultural is synonymous.



That is utterly meaningless.

You do not share the culture of a Moroccan, or a Berber, or an Uzbek.

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## kumarkumar1867

Don Jaguar said:


> Nops neutral source.



Since Pakistan, PTV, Geo or Pakistani reporters didnt existed in 1000 AD - 1525 AD, there is no neutral source according to standard definitions of Madarsaa, Mullahs & Aleems.

Heavy condolences for your inconvienince.



wake said:


> 80-90% Muslim in world are extremist.
> 
> Islam is cancer it's also spoiling other religion too , it's very dangerous for human civilization.



Pathetic Post......
What are you?? You Cant be a Good Hindu nor a Good Buddhist nor a Good Jain or a Good Christian.All these religion teaches to respect mothers & religions of every person of any race or nation.

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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> **** off you moron. Most Muslims of Pakistan then helped your Hindu ancestors from being annihilated. Us Muslims in Punjab even protected you from Afghan rage by voiding treaties made by Afghans. Even though they were our brothers.



Not very true. Watch the video.


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## Srinivas

Zarvan said:


> Yes I agree those Mughals who kicked their *** for almost thousand years and also those before them the things which they build now India show them so proudly Indians really need to wake up If India want to take credit of those things than why abuse Ghaznavi aud Ghauri than Indians should salute them to



We are not the one who lost identity and searching for one. You people live in South asia and take pride in foreign invaders. We Indians have a rich and distinct culture and no need to take pride of any foreign inventions or any foreign barbaric invaders.

India itself is a vast empire which is self sufficient with rich culture, arts, scientific achievements and proud ancestry.

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## vsdoc

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Personal views may vary & be right or wrong according to personal experiences but that doesnt nullify islamic influence on our culture, arts, architecture, music, etc.
> 
> Since 1400 AD or so, India does not means a land for sole hindus.
> 
> Hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence, harmony, religious bondings, etc has resulted in Indianness which binds all indian together. Majority of indians have learnt to judge peoples by indianness not by their religion.
> 
> We including indian muslims love Tipu Sultan & Akbar who proved to be loyal son of mother india but hate Aurangazeb who wanted to harm the indian diversity & indian unity nobody counts religion while hating it.



All true.

And you have the tolerant Hindu to thank for that.

In this, Islam does not get equal (or anywhere near equal) plaudits.

Were the tables turned, I do not see Hinduism ever gaining a foothold on an ancestral Muslim land.

And since Islam originated in Arabia, which thus can lay dibs to being the only ancestral home of Islam, you could try wrapping your tolerant views around that hypothetical gaming scenario.

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## SQ8

Fireurimagination said:


> According to Hindus yes it is..Rishi Manu being the first human, Brahma being the creator of the universe etc etc but as far as the history and cultural aspects goes IVC (Swastik signs, Lord Shiva painting) or even pre-IVC (Hindu vedas) was the native culture which had nothing to do with Islam which originated in the Middle east and which *directly conflicts with the native culture*



Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died. The confrontation is only what has been taught in text books.. based on stories of invaders whose motivations were clearly much closer to those of Alexander than that of spreading the religion.


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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died.



The hindus do not burn their daughters anymore.

When are you going to liberate your women?


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## Fireurimagination

Oscar said:


> Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died. The confrontation is only what has been taught in text books.. based on stories of invaders whose motivations were clearly much closer to those of Alexander than that of spreading the religion.



When I say direct conflict I mean conflict for you people, to be a Muslim and follow Islam you people cannot follow the ancient culture of the land..I can be a Hindu and pray to Allah cause Hinduism is all inclusive and isn't rule based, where as you can't be a Muslim and do Yoga which is the ancient culture of the land


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## Srinivas

RazPaK said:


> If they were rape products who are you slimy Hindus?
> 
> I wrote an entire page of embarrassment for you, but the web page faltered and it was not posted.
> 
> 
> Your fathers were the ones shining the boots of the invaders if I'm correct.
> 
> What kind of pride or dignity do you have?



Too much of Zia_ul_Haq will make you sick and unhealthy mate cool down. Reality is the one who forgets his history and embraces foreign culture because of hatred will never going to progress.


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## ajtr

After all men always need women's shoulder to prove superiority or the inferiority even in the topics such as culture.......

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## Srinivas

Don Jaguar said:


> King is not necessary their majority army was comprised of local converts.




A very good point. That is why Pakistani today search for a leader to serve. 



nick_indian said:


> Mughal Empire was dominant in India only from 1526-1707 . After the death of Aurangzeb it saw a rapid decline and rise of Marathas .That makes it only about 181 years of Mughal rule really .
> 
> Anyway most Mughal kings were Indian born , so it was an Indian empire, which we also should be proud of , particularly during the reign of Akbar the great .



Akbar the great is a secular emperor and embraced Hindus and most hated in pakistan


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## vsdoc

More than half of any "culture" comes from women.

How much time do fathers actually spend with their children?

Dont get me wrong. A lot of core values and early wider (out of house) outlooks one gets mainly from dads.

But you become what you are in the first 7 years of your life. 

The rest is just version control.

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## Joe Shearer

ajtr said:


> werent the kings before mughals muslim-slave dynasty,lodhi,etc.
> 
> 
> nothing but confusion hence urge to prove "we are different"



You are dealing with people of above average ignorance. How much do you want to invest?

Be careful.

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## KRAIT

One poster asked what is Pakistani culture and Indian culture ? Many things Indian Muslims follow are same as Pakistani Muslims. The difference is due to geo-graphical change as locality and neighbors, number of other religions' people, income, education etc.

The culture in remote village of northern India will be different with remote village in southern India. Leave Muslims, you can see huge difference in Hindus rituals and way of living.


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> Muslim saints were killed by hindus before muslim invasion we needed protection and we got it.
> 
> But in general invaders were there for their greater goal. Islam was just one point.



Oh, now it's down to making up things as we go along?

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## Langda Tyaagi

Urdu is an Indian Language anyways. In other words, Indian culture is your national language.

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## Srinivas

Joe Shearer said:


> I am curious to know: which parts of your culture has descended from the IVC? None of ours has, except for a very dubious identification of one seal with Siva, and of a speculation that the language of the seals might be a Dravidian language, or an Indo-Aryan.
> 
> Can you list some features?



There are artifacts such as Dancing girl in temples which is a tradition in hindu culture. The script which was found in IVC has similarities with Dravidian languages.


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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> You are dealing with people of above average ignorance. How much do you want to invest?
> 
> Be careful.


I think in this topic i can afford to cease and desist.


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## Srinivas

Icewolf said:


> Well for one there was elements of IVC stolen by Hinduism such as worshipping of cow and the Swastika.. .There are also proof Vedas may have been written in Pakistan



Wrong again, Vedas mention the significance of Ganga, Yamuna and Saraswati not River Sindhu. 
If you feel any of your culture or religion was stolen you are free to embrace it.


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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> Oh, now it's down to making up things as we go along?


If he is justified then Usa is justified too in invading muslim lands for killing usa citizen isnt it?

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## vsdoc

I know I promised not to use the word, but the IVC thread was so much on a different plane.

This one is a cheap pretender, with posters remain politically correct or predictably obnoxious.

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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> After all men always need women's shoulder to prove superiority or the inferiority even in the topics such as culture.......





vsdoc said:


> More than half of any "culture" comes from women.
> 
> How much time do fathers actually spend with their children?
> 
> Dont get me wrong. A lot of core values and early wider (out of house) outlooks one gets mainly from dads.
> 
> But you become what you are in the first 7 years of your life.
> 
> The rest is just version control.



100% agree with both posts.
Woman means Motherhood is next to Godliness , no culture no tradition can exist without her glory or without proper co-operation from her.

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## pk_baloch

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> India is big country for mugals to control. Islam spread ended as soon as it came to India.


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## ajtr

KRAIT said:


> One poster asked what is Pakistani culture and Indian culture ? Many things Indian Muslims follow are same as Pakistani Muslims. The difference is due to geo-graphical change as locality and neighbors, number of other religions' people, income, education etc.
> 
> The culture in remote village of northern India will be different with remote village in southern India. Leave Muslims, you can see huge difference in Hindus rituals and way of living.


multi cultures with in the political bounday of a country cant be lumped together to identify as single unit say indian culture or pakistani culture.



vsdoc said:


> More than half of any "culture" comes from women.
> 
> How much time do fathers actually spend with their children?
> 
> Dont get me wrong. A lot of core values and early wider (out of house) outlooks one gets mainly from dads.
> 
> But you become what you are in the first 7 years of your life.
> 
> The rest is just version control.


In a sense we create the shield for men

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## Ahmed_Vohra

Don Jaguar said:


> Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.



Exactly! Apart from Gujarat and parts of Indian Punjab and Rajasthan are only states where IVC took place.

Isn't it ironic that the river that gives India its' name also flows in Pakistan? Most of their Vedas were written in Pakistan? Earliest Hindu idols and scriptures were founded in Pakistan?

Their religion/their culture in fact their very own identity is because of Pakistan and then they say Pakistanis have identity crisis  lool


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> Yes it was but we got what we wanted their internal fight doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> He demanded a name of any king from present day Pakistan who ruled india i gave him two.



The Mughals were Pakistanis? What is one to do with this nincompoop? Your place of birth doesn't make your nationality, nincompoop. 

Babur - Andijan
Human - Kabul
Akbar - Umerkot
Jahangir - Fatehpur Sikri
Shah Jahan - Lahore
Aurangzeb - Dahod


If we go by your logic, four out of the first six were NOT Pakistani. Want me to extend the list?


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## vsdoc

ajtr said:


> In a sense we create the shield for men



Equally in many ways you perpetuate the ills done to your gender, till you actually become the victim and the oppressor by proxy.


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## SQ8

Fireurimagination said:


> When I say direct conflict I mean conflict for you people, to be a Muslim and follow Islam you people cannot follow the ancient culture of the land..I can be a Hindu and pray to *Allah cause Hinduism is all inclusive* and isn't rule based, where as you can't be a* Muslim and do Yoga which is the ancient culture of the land*



I would love to see you do that in front of a Purist hindu.. he'd probably cast you out.
The Saints that converted Indians did so my using the mediums that were common.. they did not reject Music,Singing or whatever aspects outright.. but rather found ways to use .. those cultural aspects of then India.. to transmit the message of Islam through
those mediums. And they had unprecedented success.. all over.. not just confined to a single Indian race.

As for the second part.. who told you that? under what authority.. what logic?


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## Joe Shearer

KRAIT said:


> Identity crisis takes a toll Joe Sir. Hindus population decreasing in Pakistan is something they feel proud of. The whole world knows about Upanishads and Vedas but for some it doesn't matter. They call themselves IVC holder, Muslims that ruled India and what not.
> 
> Ask any Arab or Persian and they can answer what the reality is. In this land of India, Jainism and most importantly Buddhism flourished.



What is irritating me is the incredible STUPIDITY of some of these posts.


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## SQ8

vsdoc said:


> Equally in many ways you perpetuate the ills done to your gender, till you actually become the victim and the oppressor by proxy.



You being a bigot doc.. your posts here are reflecting bigotry.. not logic.. just a heads up.


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## ajtr

vsdoc said:


> Equally in many ways you perpetuate the ills done to your gender, till you actually become the victim and the oppressor by proxy.


we actually are victims from the beginning of evolution of human race there is no question about it.


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## Srinivas

Icewolf said:


> Pakistani culture is IVC indian culture is dravidian and ganges



Two nation theory failed

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## Fireurimagination

The fact remains that today Pakistan is Islamic but had a Vedic/Hindu/Buddhist past which is very well dead and buried, what culture it follows today is 90% Islamic (imported from Middle east), it may have been corrupted a bit because of Bollywood etc and also because following Islamic tenets to the core is difficult and not very progressive


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> And some of your fellows separating IVC from hinduism see previous pages.
> 
> DesertFox explained this very properly but i am unable to find that thread.



What is that supposed to mean,"...some of your fellows separating IVC from Hinduism"? Could we at least use plain English?


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## Fireurimagination

Ahmed_Vohra said:


> Exactly! Apart from Gujarat and parts of Indian Punjab and Rajasthan are only states where IVC took place.
> 
> Isn't it ironic that the river that gives India its' name also flows in Pakistan? Most of their Vedas were written in Pakistan? Earliest Hindu idols and scriptures were founded in Pakistan?
> 
> Their religion/their culture in fact their very own identity is because of Pakistan and then they say Pakistanis have identity crisis  lool



LOL they was no Pakistan till 65 years back


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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> You being a bigot doc.. your posts here are reflecting bigotry.. not logic.. just a heads up.



Ok.

No Pakistan and Pakistanis.

No Muslims and Islam.

No IVC.

No women issues.

No coconut girls.

No Persian and Arabs.

If you cut bikes out too, I might as well stay home Oscar.


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> We muslims of sub continent and they lodhi dynasty and mughal empire.
> 
> but pakistan istelf was india then.........big deal..........



It is all India. India the geographical unit, not the nation.



> That's what we are discussing here, sub continent is not all india.


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## vsdoc

ajtr said:


> we actually are victims from the beginning of evolution of human race there is no question about it.



But you are the stronger gender. Genetically. Biologically. Immunologically. Cardiovascularly. 

You outlive us.

And more often than not, you control the perpetuation of the bloodline.

While we are more equal opportunity in seeding when left to our own devices.


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## kumarkumar1867

Ahmed_Vohra said:


> Exactly! Apart from Gujarat and parts of Indian Punjab and Rajasthan are only states where IVC took place.
> 
> Isn't it ironic that the river that gives India its' name also flows in *Pakistan*? Most of their Vedas were written in *Pakistan*? Earliest Hindu idols and scriptures were founded in *Pakistan*?
> 
> Their religion/their culture in fact their very own identity is because of* Pakistan *and then they say *Pakistanis* have identity crisis  lool



Uggghhhhh Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan. What has 65 year old Pakistan has to do with something that is 3500 to 5000 year old??

Can you name any Pakistani of IVC times??? 

Lol ... You stay where our vedic dharma left its leftovers after consuming its resources leaving half consumed resources behind. 

From Indus we moved to central-northen-southern India with Ganga, Yamuna, Sarasvati, Brahmaputra, Kaveri & Godavari & you are still feeling proud of mortal remains our hindu/vedic people left there. 

Good keep it up !!

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## Fireurimagination

Pakistan is barely 65 years old and Islam 1400 years, the 15,000 year old ancient civilization, culture that today Pakistan so desperately wants to be associated with is no where near to Islam and it's teaching and actually is everything that Islam is not, yes IVC was culture and history of what today is Pakistan but their ancestors choose to shun that and adopt Islam, which was an alien religion and culture that was imported from Middle East


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## Srinivas

Don Jaguar said:


> Sort of.
> 
> 
> 
> Expanding empire their greater goal, saints got a platform lucky for us.
> 
> Looting : No way they made india the biggest economy of their time.
> 
> Raping : Not needed they got lots of harems.



Ignorant post


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## Joe Shearer

Don Jaguar said:


> Nops my forefathers are one of them.




Your forefathers told you?



pakistanmyblood said:


> Islam is not savage. maybe your religion that drinks cow piss and has low dalits is



See the video. 

Let's see what you have to say to that.


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## kumarkumar1867

Oscar said:


> As for the second part.. who told you that? under what authority.. what logic?



If you are talking about gymnastic type yoga you are right but if you talk about original yoga that originated in Indian subcontinent, muslims cant do it.

Real Yoga means unity of Aatma with Shiva through asana, mantras & breath controls.
Even the basic of Yoga .i.e. Suryanamaskara or Sun Salvation demands to worshipp Sun (Surya) as God.

Doesnt Islam forbids worshipping Shiva & Surya ??

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## vsdoc

Fireurimagination said:


> Pakistan is barely 60 years old and Islam 1400 years, the 15,000 year old ancient civilization, culture that today Pakistan so desperately wants to be associated with is no where near to Islam and it's teaching and actually is everything that Islam is not, yes IVC was culture and history of what today is Pakistan but their ancestors choose to shun that and adopt Islam which was an alien religion and culture that was imported from Middle East



Arre bhai.

Thak gaya hun mai.

IVC were not today's Pakstanis.

If anything, IVC are today's Tamilians.

If at all. To the smallest genomic strand remnant.

Bas karo Pakistaniyon.

Tum ya to Indian ho.

Ya thode bahut mix wix ho gaye ho Iran walon se.

Thoda Arbi khoon bhi hai.

Khush raho.

IVC ko baksh do bhai.

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## SQ8

KRAIT said:


> Identity crisis takes a toll Joe Sir. Hindus population decreasing in Pakistan is something they feel proud of. The whole world knows about Upanishads and Vedas but for some it doesn't matter. They call themselves IVC holder, Muslims that ruled India and what not.
> 
> Ask any Arab or Persian and they can answer what the reality is. In this land of India, Jainism and most importantly Buddhism flourished.



The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture.. 
But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old.. 
And This list could go on and on on and on.

The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power... 


Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.

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## Manas

RazPaK said:


> But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.
> 
> You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but* many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.*




HaHA , FUNNY you say that because its also true pakiastanis don't respect other pakistanis .
Most are busy claiming to be offspring's of the Arabs, Turkish moghuls or Persians .Fake histrory writing also helps this cause.

But in this age of internet,this propaganda is slowly falling apart and pakistanis are increasing getting disillusioned with this fake history and fake identity manufactured solely justify TNT and the creation of pakistan.
An unposted letter to PM Singh | DAWN.COM


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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
> When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.



Without men, the ideology dies or mutates environmentally.

And institutions become aggregates of bricks and lime and mortar.

You do not have an excuse there.

If anyone lost out, it was our Muslim population left without a head, and a tail that till today has struggled to grow a head.

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## SQ8

kumarkumar1867 said:


> If you are talking about gymnastic type yoga you are right but if you talk about original yoga that originated in Indian subcontinent, muslims cant do it.
> 
> Real Yoga means unity of Aatma with Shiva through asana, mantras & breath controls.
> Even the basic of Yoga .i.e. *Suryanamaskara or Sun Salvation demands to worshipp Sun (Surya) as God.
> 
> Doesnt Islam forbids worshipping Shiva & Surya ??*



Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
You dont have to praise any other god.
There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras.. 
so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.

Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.



vsdoc said:


> Without men, the ideology dies or mutates environmentally.
> 
> And institutions become aggregates of bricks and lime and mortar.
> 
> *You do not have an excuse there.*
> 
> If anyone lost out, it was our Muslim population left without a head, and a tail that till today has struggled to grow a head.



yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.


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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> we actually are victims from the beginning of evolution of human race there is no question about it.



Over Statement ... !!

Woman are not victims since evolution they are victim since wars were invented & human started race of superiority of race & religions.


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## Jackdaws

Oscar said:


> I would love to see you do that in front of a Purist hindu.. he'd probably cast you out.
> The Saints that converted Indians did so my using the mediums that were common.. they did not reject Music,Singing or whatever aspects outright.. but rather found ways to use .. those cultural aspects of then India.. to transmit the message of Islam through
> those mediums. And they had unprecedented success.. all over.. not just confined to a single Indian race.
> 
> As for the second part.. who told you that? under what authority.. what logic?



What is a purist Hindu? A Hindu would say a Muslim prayer or a Christian one and still can't be cast out. There is no ex-communication.

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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
> and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.



If they did not, that has nothing to do with us.

They got what they wanted. And had always been the privileged and blessed.

Compared to that, I believe what our Muslims did achieve, they did in spite of the disadvantages they started out with.

Frankly, besides AMU, most of us would gift you those institutions via legally binding charter if we could. Free.

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## KRAIT

Oscar said:


> The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.


That quote was for ignorant people. I don't say we own IVC, but I want to tell that labeling as their own for the sake of having show off is idiotic. No one owns a civilization.

In further posts I have explained the reason of difference in cultures. Have told the factors behind it and explained a few.


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## SQ8

KRAIT said:


> That quote was for ignorant people. I don't say we own IVC, but I want to tell that labeling as their own for the sake of having show off is idiotic. No one owns a civilization.
> 
> In further posts I have explained the reason of difference in cultures. Have told the factors behind it and explained a few.



but then again.. ignorance is bliss.


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## Joe Shearer

Oscar said:


> The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
> Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture..
> But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old..
> And This list could go on and on on and on.
> 
> The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
> the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power...
> 
> 
> Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
> When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.



What you are talking about in this comment has very little to do with the awful stuff I have witnessed in earlier comments. 

First, regarding this utterly stupid competition that flares up from time to time about the "ownership" of the IVC. Nobody owns the Civilisation, the culture. Nobody can own something dead and gone, 3300 years ago. Pakistan owns some of the ruins, the most well excavated ones. India owns a few of the ruins. Each side can at best sell tickets to these ruins. For either side to claim the legacy of the whole is incredibly stupid, yet we have shambling near Mongoloids claim that their side owns the legacy entirely. 

I have a blood pressure problem and it has got worse.

Your point about the specific cultural aspects, the unique things, is understandable but askew. What was imbibed was not imbibed in any harmful way. It happened. What was imbibed in the region that is now Pakistan is surely either largely intact, or is giving way as more and more people accept yet another import which they consider more pious.

On the other hand, those cultural centres "left behind" are hardly lifeless, nor are they transmuting into Hindu institutions. They are alive and well. They are flourishing, in fact.



Oscar said:


> Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
> You dont have to praise any other god.
> There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras..
> so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.
> 
> Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
> sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.
> 
> 
> 
> yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
> and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.




I could not agree with you more.

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## Jade

Oscar said:


> The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
> Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture..
> But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old..
> And This list could go on and on on and on.
> 
> The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
> the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power...
> 
> 
> Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
> When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.




As always, pleasure to read your posts

It really mind boggling to see how some Pakistanis go though such pain to deny their past or association with India. So what if there is some association with Indian culture or India, it doesn't make you Indian or any less Pakistani. I some time think that it is Pakistanis than have not yet come to terms with Partition than Indians, as some think.

It is time Pakistanis to start moving forward than dwell in the past.


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## Manas

Don Jaguar said:


> There is one major problem about indians.
> 
> They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.



How come charm of the fir fakir sufi saints disappeared as soon muslim rule eroded with the rise of the Sikhs in punjab and Maraths in central india and totally vanished with advent of the British ??
And new conversion to islam almost died down even areas where Muslim formed the majority population till the creation of pakistan where minorities suffered persecution from the outset of pakistan.

In India conversion to Islam is minuscule in todays age and comparatively Christianity has done much better in this regard among the tribal and dalit section of population. Again the question arises where are faith charmer sufis of Islam ??

On the contrary hinduism and hindu spirituality is strongest than ever and seeks huge appeal in rich prosper land of the West where educated westerners find more meaningful in hinduism and in Hindu Guru who could answers questions their religion own could not and give them peace of mind.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar ji recieved in Argentina


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## kumarkumar1867

Oscar said:


> Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
> You dont have to praise any other god.There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras..
> 
> so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.
> 
> Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
> sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.



If you change the rules of Playing cricket it may look like cricket but it will not be a cricket any more.

If you change the God the religion is changed, I see a very good adaption from you regarding Yoga and an intelligent way of replacing Hindu God names or OM by islamic words or sounds for physical benefits but you missed something that completely goes against the definition of real Yoga which means UNION or CONTACT of Aatma with Parmaatma or Brahman or Kundilini jagriti for UNION with Shiva.

No offences please but if someone perform Namaz/Salat with waju & all mandatory body movements like momins do but just replacing Allah in it with some Hindu God...will it be a same Namaz or Salat???

I am afraid it will be just gymnastics or like dance steps loosing the essence of Original act.

Following extract from Wiki may further clear up my point :-

In a general sense, yoga is a disciplined method utilized for attaining a goal.[10] In this sense, the purpose of yoga depends on the philosophical or theological system it is conjugated with. Bhakti schools of Vaishnavism, combine yoga with devotion to enjoy an eternal presence of Vishnu.[13] In Shaiva theology, yoga is used to unite kundalini with Shiva.[14] Mahabharata defines the purpose of yoga as the experience of Brahman or &#256;tman pervading all things.[15] In the specific sense of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the purpose of yoga is defined as citta-v&#7771;tti-nirodha&#7717; (the cessation of the transformation of awareness).[10] In contemporary times, the physical postures of yoga are used to alleviate health problems, reduce stress and make the spine supple. Yoga is also used as a complete exercise program and physical therapy routine.[16]

Yoga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## vsdoc

Not to mention that the "Om" chant (like many ancient Avestan chants) has very strong vibrations.

You cannot simply replace it with a version of your belief system and expect it to work.

Man Oscar seriously ...... am sure you were not serious on that one?

Then again, you probably were.


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## SQ8

Jade said:


> It is time Pakistanis to start moving forward than dwell in the past.



Unfortunately.. that is another problem..
India was as India was defined by Nehru.. and he was around to see it through the foundation years.
The same cannot be said for Pakistan.. Jinnah died..his otherwise scheming but still half-principled deputy assassinated.. the original Muslim League leadership put on the sidelines.. Pakistan never became the Pakistan of M.A Jinnah from the day he died.

Fine.. no problem.. whats been done as been done.. 
NOW WHAT?.. 
It is foolish to assume that the Pakistan of Jinnah can ever be dug out or redeemed again.. Its dead.. its gone.. for now until miracles come forth. 
Now is the Pakistan we must define today.. and define in identity.. 
if we wish to take on the identity of Maududi and his inspired religious bigotry then we SHOULD.. if its by popular vote.. then dont feel guilty about it. 
If we wish to create a somewhat rightwing feudal democracy then accept it.. instead of trying to justify Islam in it... Islam does not hold any love for feudalism. 
If we wish a Military state with an extreme rightwing Shariah compliant dictator and are willing to take the burdens that come with it.
Then so be it.. its by popular demand.. and people should not feel apologetic for who they are. 
Those that oppose it .. should learn to adapt to the majority.. or in the words of our erstwhile PM.. "They should leave, who is stopping them".

Dilly dallying over whether we are some Islamic IVC leftover Aryan blooded Afghan Arabs is really not going to take this country anywhere.

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## SQ8

vsdoc said:


> Not to mention that the "Om" chant (like many ancient Avestan chants) has very strong vibrations.
> 
> You cannot simply replace it with *a version of your belief system and expect it to work.*
> 
> Man Oscar seriously ...... am sure you were not serious on that one?
> 
> Then again, you probably were.



Why cant you?
Have you ever seen a Zikr? that too has very strong vibrations.. and you really cant figure out what frequency is that makes us resonate.. To each their own.. 
It works for me.. and helps me in my day.. which means Im probably doing something right.

When you leave that perception of Alien entity(based on your personal exp.. and not on historical references.. or the personal exp of many others given the right content).. you will find that there is a lot you have to discover about Islam. 
You dont have to convert for that.. just as I dont have to renounce Islam to be able to practice Yoga after Fajr Prayers.


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## AnnoyingOrange

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately.. that is another problem..
> India was as India was defined by Nehru.. and he was around to see it through the foundation years.
> The same cannot be said for Pakistan.. Jinnah died..his otherwise scheming but still half-principled deputy assassinated.. the original Muslim League leadership put on the sidelines.. Pakistan never became the Pakistan of M.A Jinnah from the day he died.
> 
> Fine.. no problem.. whats been done as been done..
> NOW WHAT?..
> It is foolish to assume that the Pakistan of Jinnah can ever be dug out or redeemed again.. Its dead.. its gone.. for now until miracles come forth.
> Now is the Pakistan we must define today.. and define in identity..
> if we wish to take on the identity of Maududi and his inspired religious bigotry then we SHOULD.. if its by popular vote.. then dont feel guilty about it.
> If we wish to create a somewhat rightwing feudal democracy then accept it.. instead of trying to justify Islam in it... Islam does not hold any love for feudalism.
> If we wish a Military state with an extreme rightwing Shariah compliant dictator and are willing to take the burdens that come with it.
> Then so be it.. its by popular demand.. and people should not feel apologetic for who they are.
> Those that oppose it .. should learn to adapt to the majority.. or in the words of our erstwhile PM.. "They should leave, who is stopping them".
> 
> Dilly dallying over whether we are some Islamic IVC leftover Aryan blooded Afghan Arabs is really not going to take this country anywhere.



Now that's the way to go...if you dig out history, the only thing you will find is corpses and remains ... not good enough to make a future....start today..and make a future for yourself ...today.


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## Bang Galore

Joe Shearer said:


> I have a blood pressure problem and it has got worse.


It will only get even worse if you insist on crossing swords with people for whom _"History"_ is an article of faith. As a faith, it has no use for facts. Their_" belief"_ is unshakeable & no amount of throwing facts in their face will change that.


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## Srinivas

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately.. that is another problem..
> India was as India was defined by Nehru.. and he was around to see it through the foundation years.
> The same cannot be said for Pakistan.. Jinnah died..his otherwise scheming but still half-principled deputy assassinated.. the original Muslim League leadership put on the sidelines.. Pakistan never became the Pakistan of M.A Jinnah from the day he died.
> 
> Fine.. no problem.. whats been done as been done..
> NOW WHAT?..
> It is foolish to assume that the Pakistan of Jinnah can ever be dug out or redeemed again.. Its dead.. its gone.. for now until miracles come forth.
> Now is the Pakistan we must define today.. and define in identity..
> if we wish to take on the identity of Maududi and his inspired religious bigotry then we SHOULD.. if its by popular vote.. then dont feel guilty about it.
> If we wish to create a somewhat rightwing feudal democracy then accept it.. instead of trying to justify Islam in it... Islam does not hold any love for feudalism.
> If we wish a Military state with an extreme rightwing Shariah compliant dictator and are willing to take the burdens that come with it.
> Then so be it.. its by popular demand.. and people should not feel apologetic for who they are.
> Those that oppose it .. should learn to adapt to the majority.. or in the words of our erstwhile PM.. "They should leave, who is stopping them".
> 
> Dilly dallying over whether we are some Islamic IVC leftover Aryan blooded Afghan Arabs is really not going to take this country anywhere.



Pakistan went into the hands of bureaucrats and soldiers after Jinnah's death. Those guys did maximum damage in the bilateral relationship with India.


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## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> Why cant you?
> Have you ever seen a Zikr? that too has very strong vibrations.. and you really cant figure out what frequency is that makes us resonate.. To each their own..
> It works for me.. and helps me in my day.. which means Im probably doing something right.
> 
> When you leave that perception of Alien entity(based on your personal exp.. and not on historical references.. or the personal exp of many others given the right content).. you will find that there is a lot you have to discover about Islam.
> You dont have to convert for that.. just as I dont have to renounce Islam to be able to practice Yoga after Fajr Prayers.



Islam is alien to Indian lands, people, and culture.

That's all I said.

You like 500 million more of you have accepted and internalized it.

It still does not make it indigenous.

Never will.

Why does that make me a bigot?

I come from different racial stock to the rest of you guys. 

I recognize my faith is alien to this land.

Yet I am comfortable with both, and it does not in any way make me feel a molecule less Indian than 1.2 billion more Indians.

Please take your bigotry comment back.

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## SQ8

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Pakistan went into the hands of bureaucrats and *soldiers* after Jinnah's death. Those guys did maximum damage in the bilateral relationship with India.



Not even soldiers.. cowards.. the actual soldiers died and bled on the front.
Ayub Khan chickened out in Burma and refused to lead a charge of his fellow Indians against the Japanese.
And then this man was expected to provide leadership in a strategic coup-de-tat against India in Kashmir??


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## Jackdaws

Oscar said:


> Not even soldiers.. cowards.. the actual soldiers died and bled on the front.
> Ayub Khan chickened out in Burma and refused to lead a charge of his fellow Indians against the Japanese.
> And then this man was expected to provide leadership in a strategic coup-de-tat against India in Kashmir??



If I remember correctly, it was either Ayub or Yahya who bought a motorbike from Maneckshaw and did not pay him.


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## vsdoc

Jackdaws said:


> If I remember correctly, it was either Ayub or Yahya who bought a motorbike from Maneckshaw and did not pay him.



That's way enough reason for any Parsi to go to war.

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## Bang Galore

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately.. that is another problem..




Forget other earlier problems. Pakistan's current problem stems from the fact that there are too few _"Oscars"_ & too many of the...err.._"others"_

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## INDIC

pk_baloch said:


> yes and those IVC DRAVIDIAN PEOPLE were not hindu and the land was not called hindustan .........



Truth is Hinduism *evolved* from the religion of IVC. Either it is swastika, or meditation in Hinduism, the Pashupati etc.


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## kumarkumar1867

Bang Galore said:


> Forget other earlier problems. Pakistan's current problem stems from the fact that there are too few _"Oscars"_ & too many of the...err.._"others"_




I second that


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## vsdoc

Gigawatt said:


> Truth is Hinduism *evolved* from the religion of IVC. Either it is swastika, or meditation in Hinduism, the Pashupati etc.



But the Bull is more Zoroastrian.

So did you guys come from us, or did we come from you?


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## INDIC

Oscar said:


> Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died.



Sati was a rare practice done only on *childless widows*. In ancient India Sati was not widespread.

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## ajtr

vsdoc said:


> But the Bull is more Zoroastrian.
> 
> So did you guys come from us, or did we come from you?


How can either of you come from each other with huge IVC muslim pakistan between you both.


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## vsdoc

ajtr said:


> How can either of you come from each other with huge IVC muslim pakistan between you both.



That's the third option.

Pakistan bein midway between Asia Minor and the Gangetic plains in the tug o war between AIT and OOI.


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## ajtr

Gigawatt said:


> Sati was a rare practice done only on *childless widows*. In ancient India Sati was not widespread.


Was there anything like sati or johar or equivalent custom before muslim invaders started arriving in subcontinent?



vsdoc said:


> That's the third option.


nope there are only two options as 0 or 1 as in binary system.


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## INDIC

vsdoc said:


> But the Bull is more Zoroastrian.
> 
> So did you guys come from us, or did we come from you?



I don't know doc, but I read that pre-Zoroastrian polytheist Iran had many common gods with Hinduism.


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## AnnoyingOrange

ajtr said:


> Was there anything like sati or johar or equivalent custom before muslim invaders started arriving in subcontinent?



No... The Sati Pratha.... was started in states like Rajasthan at the time of Muslim invaders started to attack their States at that time. It existed primarily in Rajput families and Villages and Kingdoms.... to avoid their women from falling into hands of Muslim invaders and ill-treated.... as soon as news of their army losing to Muslim invaders would reach to their Palaces their would be huge fires burnt in open spaces and women would willingly walk into them to save their self from invaders.


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## INDIC

ajtr said:


> Was there anything like sati or johar or equivalent custom before muslim invaders started arriving in subcontinent?



Ancient India was more liberal, by the medieval time Hinduism become more conservative and introvert.


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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> Was there anything like sati or johar or equivalent custom before muslim invaders started arriving in subcontinent?



Yes Sati did.
Moghul Emperors especially Aurangazeb was strong opponent of this practice.

But Johar started when invaders started arriving in subcontinent


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## kumarkumar1867

AnnoyingOrange said:


> No... The Sati Pratha.... was started in states like Rajasthan at the time of Muslim invaders started to attack their States at that time. It existed primarily in Rajput families and Villages and Kingdoms.... *to avoid their women from falling into hands of Muslim invaders and ill-treated.... as soon as news of their army losing to Muslim invaders would reach to their Palaces their would be huge fires burnt in open spaces and women would willingly walk into them to save their self from invaders*.



You are talking about JOHAR.
Sati Pratha was very different from this.


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## ajtr

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yes Sati did.
> Moghul Emperors especially Aurangazeb was strong opponent of this practice.
> 
> But Johar started when invaders started arriving in subcontinent


Actually Aurangazeb was the greatest social reformer who took birth on the indian soil.


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## INDIC

AnnoyingOrange said:


> No... The Sati Pratha.... was started in states like Rajasthan at the time of Muslim invaders started to attack their States at that time. It existed primarily in Rajput families and Villages and Kingdoms.... to avoid their women from falling into hands of Muslim invaders and ill-treated.... as soon as news of their army losing to Muslim invaders would reach to their Palaces their would be huge fires burnt in open spaces and women would willingly walk into them to save their self from invaders.



Sati was practiced only by High caste Hindus in North India and it was absent in South. It got more widespread in medieval time.


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## SQ8

vsdoc said:


> Islam is alien to Indian lands, people, and culture.
> 
> That's all I said.
> 
> You like 500 million more of you have accepted and internalized it.
> 
> It still does not make it indigenous.
> 
> Never will.
> 
> Why does that make me a bigot?
> 
> I come from different racial stock to the rest of you guys.
> 
> *I recognize my faith is alien to this land.*
> 
> Yet I am comfortable with both, and it does not in any way make me feel a molecule less Indian than 1.2 billion more Indians.
> 
> Please take your bigotry comment back.



I do not take your faith as Alien to this land.. 
How are Parsis Alien to this land after having been here for ages..
In that manner.. even the Buddist faith.. or Hinduism is Alien.. 
All encompass elements taken from lands there were outside along with within.
Your definition of Alien would hold true if everything originated wholly and solely from within a section without even a hint of outside influence.

But if you wish to take origin as the concept of Alien.. then yes.. My faith is Alien.
But then so is my blood.. so are a hundred different things in India Alien.. which are not Alien anymore.

And my bigotry comment was directed at this sentence of yours stated in a different form directing Islam as the exception to this rule


> Yet I am comfortable with both, and it does not in any way make me feel a molecule less Indian than 1.2 billion more Indians.



Do you pray as the Hindu Indian? or as the Muslim Indian.. ? Or do you dress as the Village Indian ?
You may not feel a molecule *less*.. but you do have molecules that are different from them.. and you have molecules that are common to them. Failing to acknowledge either.. is suppressing who you are as a person.
Your molecules are the result of a successful reaction between Alien molecules and local molecules.. something worked.
The same happened with Islam.. it did work.. people did convert.. now there were benign chemical reactions(Preachers,Sufi Saints)..and exothermic ones..destructive ones(Invaders).. but in the end.. a product was formed.. which has the characteristics of both the host and Alien entity...but it thrives in this environment called the subcontinent... it is natural to it.

Now.. if someone tries to forcibly remove a molecule.. or add a molecule to you... it may lead to bad consequences..You will resist..maybe even go nuclear.

I cannot be asked to remove the identity that my being a Muslim gives me and differentiates me from the rest of this worlds other inhabitants that practice other religions.. I will resist any attempts to be told to discard it in order to "blend in" more than I already do.

I am what I am.. a molecule of this subcontinent.. and I have a lot in common with you.. a lot of atoms. 
but at the same time.. I am also different from you...because of other elements that went into my creation.. and I cannot be asked to ditch that identity either. 
So the question now is.. just as you have adjusted to be packed in with the other 1.2 billion Molecules.. some heaving and shoving to find their best fit.. some that broke away for they could not fit as such ..others added and removed elements and did adjust ..
and created the macro molecules of India and Pakistan.. each with its own stable and unstable characteristics.. 
Should you consider anything alien.. or original?

After all.. there are over a hundred elements in the periodic table, each with differing characteristics.. not all react.. not all react to form stable compounds..
But the reaction is still ongoing.... 
to blame it on a single element.. when hundreds have come and gone before it even existed in the sub-continent.. and have had worse effects.. is unfair.

And when life did begin in the sea.. should the salamander start telling the elephant they are alien to the land because they were here first? Or does the Shark have greater right in telling the whale to get lost because its an outsider?

And I almost lost myself there..

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## AnnoyingOrange

kumarkumar1867 said:


> You are talking about JOHAR.
> Sati Pratha was very different from this.




Oh yes...thanks for correcting me there.....got that mixed up...History lesson Class 8 ...1989...long time buddy....long time.


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## vsdoc

Gigawatt said:


> I don't know doc, but I read that pre-Zoroastrian polytheist Iran had many common gods with Hinduism.



Actually we were one and we became katti is some major f-up and parted ways.

So much so that your devas were our daevas (devils), and your asuras were our ahuras (lesser Gods).


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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> Actually Aurangazeb was the greatest social reformer who took birth on the indian soil.



Yes may be if we talk about Sati thing but he was also a greatest religious bigot & radical who took birth on Indian soil.

You should read about prosecution of Raje Sambhaji & ninth Sikh Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur which ultimatley caused the end of mughal empire.


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## Bang Galore

Regardless, we need to be thankful to the British for banning Sati and to men like General Sir Charles Napier whose words to Hindu priests complaining about the ban on Sati became a legend 

-_*"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."*_

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## vsdoc

Oscar bro, aap to senti ho gaye.

I am not a anti-Muslim bigot.

You and others can keep labeling me that, I (and my Muslim friends) know better.

I am a sanki bawa who has pretty strong views on loyalty, gratitude, brotherhood, tolerance, independence, and pride.

As well as on fairplay, right and wrong, and paying one's dues before resting easy.

My rants are better read in that backlight.

But if it suits you to label me a bigot, so be it.

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## Black Widow

How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?


What is Pakistani Culture??? If you are talking bout IVC culture, Its Hindu and Indian culture.

If you are talking bout Islamic culture then I must tell you "except Muhammad and Koran, nothing is Islamic", everything is copied from one or other religion.

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## vsdoc

Black Widow said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> 
> What is Pakistani Culture??? If you are talking bout IVC culture, Its Hindu and Indian culture.
> 
> If you are talking bout Islamic culture then I must tell you "except Muhammad and Koran, nothing is Islamic", everything is copied from one or other religion.



To be perfectly honest, the Quran does not largely break new ground either.

Where it comes across as highly culture incongruent from an Indian perspective, I suspect is less divine and more Arab culturally influenced from a purely mortal Mohammad perspective.

As was true for the other Prophets in their time as well.

I hope this does not calssify as blasphemy or something?

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## SQ8

vsdoc said:


> To be perfectly honest, the Quran does not largely break new ground either.
> 
> Where it comes across as highly culture incongruent from an Indian perspective, I suspect is less divine and more Arab culturally influenced from a purely mortal Mohammad perspective.
> 
> As was true for the other Prophets in their time as well.
> 
> I hope this does not calssify as *blasphemy or something?*



Not entirely..relatively speaking Windows 7 builts on its predecessors'.. 
You cant say that windows wont run on that architecture or not.. all you have to do is port it in the local code.. Some features that were acceptable for the architectural there wont be in this one.. 
but the Kernel stays the same.(sorry if you did not get my nerdspeak)
But then again.. Islam is Religion from God.. O.E.M Full and Final Version(no more changes ever).. in my view anyway 

As for the bigot comment.. I take it back in light of your explanation of your view.
But I reiterate.. singling out Islam will only seem to fix things for say.. a hundred years at best.

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## PakShah

Well we should root out any culture that comes from the Republic of India.

Enough said.


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## Srinivas

vsdoc said:


> That's way enough reason for any Parsi to go to war.




Hillarious Doc made my day

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## INDIC

PakShah said:


> *Well we should root out any culture that comes from the Republic of India.*
> 
> Enough said.



Then start it with disowning the Urdu language.

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## Fireurimagination

The primary problem here is that Pakistan can't make movies like Bollywood movies and thus cultural invasion by Bollywood and India, once they start making movies comparable to Bollywood (Hero-Heroine dancing around the tree) the identity crisis will go away


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## SQ8

Gigawatt said:


> Then start it with disowning the Urdu language.



I dont think you understood his post.. 
republic of India is India post independence.. 
not what common each took in 47.
Urdu was taken up by both nations.


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## vsdoc

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Hillarious Doc made my day



Said in half jest really.

On a ride once, as usual in the twisties, my best friend and I got super competitive, with some serious gunning on each other's arses, blocking, etc.

Finally I took advantage of a small break betwen a bus and a car and built a good lead of a couple of corners as the gap closed down and he could not close in after that.

Once I reached the spot we were heading for I quickly pulled to the side, and ripped off my helmet to give the impression I had been waiting for some time 

Our man comes gunning around the corner, sees me grinning, my bike parked on side stand, and tries to nonchalantly act cool and come to a skidding halt just behind my bike.

He miscalculates his approach speed, the distance, and the fact that his front disc locked on bajri, and instead of lightly pecking my bike, he smooches its backside.

Bottom line - my bike jolts forward before my (and his) horrified eyes, and falls off the side stand.

I cannot believe what I have just seen. I cannot even abuse or get violent.

So I pick up my bike, put on my helmet, and race away.

We did not talk for two months ......


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## Myth_buster_1

dollarman said:


> The same way Rinkle Kumari's grandchildren are not going to know that her Hindu mother was kidnapped, raped and forcefully converted to Islam.



Hi just because 1 out every 2 children in India are sexually molested does not mean the rest of the world lives in such a lifestyle. Everything from Indian mouth is associated with rape, lol i wonder why.

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## Myth_buster_1

vsdoc said:


> To be perfectly honest, the Quran does not largely break new ground either [QUOTE/]
> 
> And Hindu religion breaks new ground right? funny hindus


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## Paan Singh

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Hi just because *1 out every 2 children in India are sexually molested *does not mean the rest of the world lives in such a lifestyle. Everything from Indian mouth is associated with rape, lol i wonder why.



if its den every second paksitani is taliban commander...

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## W.11

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Hi just because 1 out every 2 children in India are sexually molested does not mean the rest of the world lives in such a lifestyle. Everything from Indian mouth is associated with rape, lol i wonder why.



unending stories of the false and bigotted lie, the girls have escaped willingly to marry their muslim lovers, false accusation of hindu families to hide their daughter's guilt of escaping with a lover

jhut bole kawwa kate, indians arnt the thekedars of pakistani hindu's life


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## takeiteasy

what about more cultural ties with Iran(leave aside shia-sunni differences) replace urdu with Farsi. Pakistani people are too much distracted by India(media,culture etc). Farsi language can really help make a difference. Slowly, people to people contact between Pakistan and central Asian countries especially Iran will happen with cultural exchanges as well. Farsi was once the language used by Islamic rulers- Remember. Urdu is definitely Khadi boli, the Hindustani(Hindu!!) language spoken by Indians. speaking Urdo is mimicking Hindustani.

India and Pakistan can remain as neutral countries IF Pakistan accepts this. afterall, 50% of Pakistan is in middle east(as well as people). 

the most fascinating thing is neither Bangladesh nor Srilanka have this complaint of Indian culture "endangering" their culture. that is because they are truely south Asian countries with their own cultures still preserved. they don't care for Indian as it offers nothing much different. while it is not true for most of Pakistan.


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## SQ8

takeiteasy said:


> what about more cultural ties with Iran(leave aside shia-sunni differences) replace urdu with Farsi. Pakistani people are too much distracted by India(media,culture etc). Farsi language can really help make a difference. India and Pakistan can remain as neutral countries IF Pakistan accepts this. afterall, 50% of Pakistan is in middle east(as well as people).
> 
> the most fascinating thing is neither Bangladesh nor Srilanka have this complaint of Indian culture "endangering" their culture. that is because they are truely south Asian countries with their own cultures still preserved. they don't care for Indian as it offers nothing much different. while it is not true for most of Pakistan.



Part of this mystery may have to do with the fact that the area that is pakistan has been a sort of breakwaters between south asia and the middle east.


----------



## drunken-monke

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken by bollywood movies to be indian culture, real indian culture is **** compared to Pakistani muslim culture. We are much more open minded and civilized than backward indians.



Oh yes dude.. Thats why calling culture if yourself very much superior and other's one a crap... By the way, will you care to explain why your so called Muslim Culture is better than Indian?? Do you have something to explain why do you think yourself a Philosopher of Culture... 

By the way People in rest of many nations dont have the same ideology of the one which you have.. It Seems that these ppl may real jerk.. Or is it otherwise??


----------



## W.11

takeiteasy said:


> what about more cultural ties with Iran(leave aside shia-sunni differences) replace urdu with Farsi. Pakistani people are too much distracted by India(media,culture etc). Farsi language can really help make a difference. Slowly, people to people contact between Pakistan and central Asian countries especially Iran will happen with cultural exchanges as well. Farsi was once the language used by Islamic rulers- Remember. Urdu is definitely Khadi boli, the Hindustani(Hindu!!) language spoken by Indians. speaking Urdo is mimicking Hindustani.
> 
> India and Pakistan can remain as neutral countries IF Pakistan accepts this. afterall, 50% of Pakistan is in middle east(as well as people).
> 
> the most fascinating thing is neither Bangladesh nor Srilanka have this complaint of Indian culture "endangering" their culture. that is because they are truely south Asian countries with their own cultures still preserved. they don't care for Indian as it offers nothing much different. while it is not true for most of Pakistan.



urdu isnt indian language, its a muslim language which evolved in the muslim time period, infact i say hindi evolved on urdu lines, because the original language of hindus is sanskirit not hindi, hindi is something which was made into something else than urdu in order to recognise the hindu's language when nobody was giving two arse to sanskirit...


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## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> Truth is Hinduism *evolved* from the religion of IVC. Either it is swastika, or meditation in Hinduism, the Pashupati etc.


 hindu ,hindusium ,hindustan all these names were given to u ..and muslims gave u these name ,i was really surprised to know that most of the indians donot know about their caste ,i read the comments on the thread ""what is ur caste"


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## vsdoc

Myth_buster_1 said:


> And Hindu religion breaks new ground right? funny hindus



Considering its around 5000 years older, way more new ground than Islam.

When you get down to it, by the time the Arabs found organized religion, most of the civilized world already had their own for a few thousand years - give or take a thousand here or there.

Which is also around how long Islam has been in existence.

Which was the point I was making.

And oh for the friggin umpteenth time ......

I am not Hindu.

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## t_for_talli

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Good point. The source of all civilization in South Asia came from the IVC, which exists almost entirely in modern-day Pakistan.


Civilization belongs to those who carried it forward and not who are living presently on that peace of land
They own the materialistic things but we own the values,the learning the teachings the civilization

There is identity insecurity among Pakistanis;
have you ever seen an Palestinian/Iseraeli claiming Jesus/Christianity as theirs?
Do people of Istanbul claim roman culture as theirs?


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## Edevelop

dollarman said:


> You ruled us? Biggest joke ever coming from people who converted in front of the fear of the sword  Name me one Muslim Pakistani King that even ruled present day Pakistan, much less present day India
> 
> Its funny when products of Arab rape leftovers think they are equal to Hindus, it does amuse me a lot



Ruling is not something to be proud of. If Pakistan didn't have monarchy then it tells us that we were democratic. 
While you guys were washing your masters underwear, we were living in peace and in equality. 

And yes BTW Pakistani people saved you. Wonder why so many hindus and Indian muslims fled to Pakistan?


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## Myth_buster_1

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> if its den every second paksitani is taliban commander...



you the it of the not is the! got it? 


Over 53% children face sexual abuse: Survey


----------



## INDIC

pk_baloch said:


> hindu ,hindusium ,hindustan all these names were given to u ..and muslims gave u these name ,i was really surprised to know that most of the indians donot know about their caste ,i read the comments on the thread ""what is ur caste"



Word Hind and Hindu was given by Iranians some around 500BC, 2500 years ago. Hindustan was given by Turks, no denying that.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

drunken-monke said:


> Oh yes dude.. Thats why calling culture if yourself very much superior and other's one a crap... By the way, will you care to explain why your so called Muslim Culture is better than Indian?? Do you have something to explain why do you think yourself a Philosopher of Culture...
> 
> By the way People in rest of many nations dont have the same ideology of the one which you have.. It Seems that these ppl may real jerk.. Or is it otherwise??



A true Muslim culture may not be the best example for non-muslim however it is for us!


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## drunken-monke

cb4 said:


> Ruling is not something to be proud of. If Pakistan didn't have monarchy then it tells us that we were democratic.
> While you guys were washing your masters underwear, we were living in peace and in equality.



Peace word does not suit in a pakistani mouth...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

vsdoc said:


> Considering its around 5000 years older, way more new ground than Islam.



Thats why hindusim is merely concentrated in India while Islam is the fastest growing religion not in the Muslim world but in West as well!


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## Bhairava

Oscar said:


> Was Mahmud of Ghazni all you remember?



Can you fault us for remembering ?


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## t_for_talli

[:::~Spartacus~:::];3447700 said:


> urdu isnt indian language, its a muslim language which evolved in the muslim time period, infact i say hindi evolved on urdu lines, because the original language of hindus is sanskirit not hindi, hindi is something which was made into something else than urdu in order to recognise the hindu's language when nobody was giving two arse to sanskirit...



What is Muslim Language?? please enlighten me

Sare Musalmano ka theka tumne liya hai kya??

You cannot claim Muslim culture as entirely yours 
A Muslim is as Indian as any Hindu, Sikh, JAin, Christian etc etc


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## Bhairava

Oscar said:


> which is their own loss... Their continuous need to brand Islam as alien to their land leads to the communal tensions seen from time to time.



Unless Mecca and Madina were part of the Indian subcontinent, Islam was indeed alien to this part of the world and unless due to some tectonic shift they become part of the subcontnent, they will be alien. Think it about it - Was the language of the Prophet an Indian one ? Were the epic battles that first happened, happened here ?, were the initial warriors from our stock ? Any of your sacred places present here ?. All of them in Arabia. Then why do you get slighted when people call the idealogy of Islam as alien to these lands.

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## illusion8

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Thats why hindusim is merely concentrated in India while Islam is the fastest growing religion not in the Muslim world but in West as well!



There's no converting by the sword or by teachings in Hinduism. You cannot become Hindu unless you are born one.


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## Myth_buster_1

t_for_talli said:


> What is Muslim Language?? please enlighten me
> 
> Sare Musalmano ka theka tumne liya hai kya??
> 
> You cannot claim Muslim culture as entirely yours
> A Muslim is as Indian as any Hindu, Sikh, JAin, Christian etc etc



I think Pakistan is also part of this planet.


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## t_for_talli

Don Jaguar said:


> Yes you are right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.



You are showing me a piece of land where is culture

Culture is owned by those who inherit it

Palestinian/Israeli never claim Christianity
People of Istanbul never claim roman culture



Don Jaguar said:


> Yes you are right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hinduism is an ancient Pakistani religion.



You are showing me a piece of land where is culture

Culture is owned by those who inherit it

Palestinian/Israeli never claim Christianity
People of Istanbul never claim roman culture

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## Bhairava

illusion8 said:


> There's no converting by the sword or by teachings in Hinduism. You cannot become Hindu unless you are born one.



No...conversions happen and are valid.

This delusional thinking by the Brahmins was what impeded the growth of Hinduism in the intitial times, along with the ridiculous notion of not crossing the oceans.

* Hoping you are not a Brahmin*


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## 474474

takeiteasy said:


> if you believe India's cultural influence on Pakistan is despisable, why not ban India's Television channels as well as other cultural similarities. IMO, URDU language is the reason why Pakistanis are interested in India. why not encourage another language which can help Pakistani people from India's influence. like....FARSI.
> 
> but, We are not(atleast a minority) really happy that North Indian culture spreads in Pakistan.



Actually urdu is the most attacked by indian culture. grammer aside, punjabi and sindhi probably have more common vocabulary with hindi than urdu.
Read about the history of urdu, it was the language of the court spoken by civilized muslims rulers(no offence), hindi is just a rip off. I have respect for sanskrit, so im no racist, but hindi is just yuck!


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## Bhairava

Syama Ayas said:


> If one goes back deep into history, everything is alien, including life to this planet.



That is a hypothesis and not a fact.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

illusion8 said:


> There's no converting by the sword or by teachings in Hinduism. You cannot become Hindu unless you are born one.



The more Indians speak the more the convinces the world that you guys suffer from syndrome of delusional. 
No one in the west are chasing around anybody with a sword to convert university students, professors, doctors, engineers, scientists, sportsmen, celebrities and even ex-islamphobians. 

And thank god I am not a hindu.


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## Bhairava

Zarvan said:


> 80 Million the biggest lie in all Muslims wars very few people were killed but India needs to decide what they want if they want to take pride in Taj Mahal and Lal Qila and other such things than they should also accept events of Somnath and take pride in that to and also take pride in great Muhammad Gauri



Ah gaya maulvi saab... Take pride in Muhammed Ghori...


----------



## 474474

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yeah... Your forefathers & ancestors were killed for being hindu so the remaining hindus either sacrificed their self respect & converted to islam to form *proud people* like you or fled & settled to other far flung parts without loosing their religion & self respect.



The ******** is strong in this one.
Islam is the right religion, the only truth. If you don't believe that then whatever. It has nothing to do with parents, I have no interest in anything else, i have studied all and come to my conclusions. Being born is a minor influence to thsoe with higher intellectual capability, you honestly think following your ancsestors is something to be proud of?
But whatever, Islam is the religion of Adam AS, so before hinduism Islam was still there


----------



## Paan Singh

Myth_buster_1 said:


> you the it of the not is the! got it?
> 
> 
> Over 53% children face sexual abuse: Survey



 

so they conducted survey in every city? 

they randomly ask children like 1000 ppl and decide... 

so bring smthng new..


----------



## 474474

kumarkumar1867 said:


> If Moghul wanted ??? Lol
> 
> Converting entire hindu population was not a cutting a piece of cake.
> 
> Akbar could rule India only with help of hindu rajpootana kings, he pleased rajpoots, befriended them as he knew without their help he will never rule india, His son & grandson followed the same suit.
> 
> Aurangazeb tried to convert every single hindu & in turn got beaten by Raja Chahhtrapati Shivaji in longest war that moghul ever fought & died of butt hurt making future Moghul emperors mere puppets of peshwas.
> 
> 
> 
> Does any European country have valleys named as PAGANKUSH where millions of pagans were slaughtered for being non-christians like hindus & buddhist were slaughtered for being non-muslims like we have HINDUKUSH??
> Was prize of 1000 golden coins given to people who was gifted Head of Pagan priest by Christian kingss like head of Buddhist or Hindu Preist was rewarded by Timur??



Funny how buddists never cry ******** in the same way you do?


----------



## Bhairava

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Personal views may vary & be right or wrong according to personal experiences but that doesnt nullify islamic influence on our culture, arts, architecture, music, etc.



Not all areas are affected by the imprint left by the invasions.



kumarkumar1867 said:


> We including indian muslims love Tipu Sultan & Akbar who proved to be loyal son of mother india but hate Aurangazeb who wanted to harm the indian diversity & indian unity nobody counts religion while hating it.



I dont love Tipu Sultan. Maybe I'm indifferent. If you know anything about his atrocities on the Hindus and Christians of Malabar and Coast you would not talk like this. The producers at DD should be put to the firing squad for completely whitewashing history and putting up a halal version of Tipu on screen.

If you have any further doubts, you can ask any of the Keralite members here.



474474 said:


> Funny how buddists never cry ******** in the same way you do?



Buddhists dont cry like that. Its the leftie anarchists and neo-Buddhists aka Ambedkarites who do.


----------



## ALOK31

self delete


----------



## Myth_buster_1

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> so they conducted survey in every city?
> 
> they randomly ask children like 1000 ppl and decide...
> 
> so bring smthng new..



The word denial and India goes hand in hand. 

The survey was not conducted by ISI agents but infact by Ministry of Women and child Development. 

Earlier this year, the central government did draft such a legislation: the Protection of Children Against Sexual Offences Bill was sent to the various states for consideration. One version of the Bill became available to the press through sources at the Ministry of Women and Child Development. One clause in particular (regarding the decriminalising of non-penetrative sexual exploration between children older than 12) was much discussed in various public and media forums. Prior to this, the sexual abuse of children became a matter of public interest following publication of the report by the MWCD entitled &#8216;Study on Child Abuse India 2007&#8217; which revealed that more than 53% of children in India have probably been sexually abused and many have never shared the fact of this abuse with anyone. 


The reason why 1 out every 2nd child in india is sexually molested is because of cowards like you who turn blind eye to such a matter.


----------



## Bhairava

Oscar said:


> Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. *infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died*. The confrontation is only what has been taught in text books.. based on stories of invaders whose motivations were clearly much closer to those of Alexander than that of spreading the religion.



Hmm..that is a very wrong example. Sati was practised only in Rajasthan, mostly by the Rajputs and in Bengal, or that is what I am aware of -- for different reasons though. What about UP,Bihar, Deccan etc ?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yeah... Your forefathers & ancestors were killed for being hindu so the remaining hindus either sacrificed their self respect & converted to islam to form *proud people* like you or fled & settled to other far flung parts without loosing their religion & self respect.



When Islam entered the region hinduism became irrelevant to the enlightened people thus the mass conversion took place and thats why today Islam is the fasted growing religion despite cowards like you try their utter most to slander the religion of truth.


----------



## Bhairava

vsdoc said:


> Frankly, besides AMU, most of us would gift you those institutions via legally binding charter if we could. Free.



If AMU goes ahead and bans facebook, as they threatened some time back, perhaps that should also be included..


----------



## INDIC

[:::~Spartacus~:::];3447700 said:


> urdu isnt indian language, its a muslim language which evolved in the muslim time period, infact i say hindi evolved on urdu lines, because the original language of hindus is sanskirit not hindi, hindi is something which was made into something else than urdu in order to recognise the hindu's language when nobody was giving two arse to sanskirit...



You don't know anything about North India. Urdu is Khariboli with loaned nouns from Persian and Arabic. Khariboli evolved from Shauraseni Prakrit.

So, I always amazed how the sole bearer of IVC can claim Urdu of Ganga valley civilization.


----------



## Paan Singh

Myth_buster_1 said:


> The word denial and India goes hand in hand.
> 
> The survey was not conducted by ISI agents but infact by Ministry of Women and child Development.
> 
> Earlier this year, the central government did draft such a legislation: the Protection of Children Against Sexual Offences Bill was sent to the various states for consideration. One version of the Bill became available to the press through sources at the Ministry of Women and Child Development. One clause in particular (regarding the decriminalising of non-penetrative sexual exploration between children older than 12) was much discussed in various public and media forums. Prior to this, the sexual abuse of children became a matter of public interest following publication of the report by the MWCD entitled Study on Child Abuse India 2007 which revealed that more than 53% of children in India have probably been sexually abused and many have never shared the fact of this abuse with anyone.
> 
> 
> The reason why 1 out every 2nd child in india is sexually molested is because of cowards like you who turn blind eye to such a matter.



okies..talk with any indian..they will tell u better  ..


----------



## Bhairava

Gigawatt said:


> Ancient India was more liberal, by the medieval time Hinduism become more conservative and introvert.



Happens everytime when a faith comes into contact with another radically opposite to that. Why ? Just to maintain the difference.


----------



## illusion8

Myth_buster_1 said:


> The more Indians speak the more the convinces the world that you guys suffer from syndrome of delusional.
> No one in the west are chasing around anybody with a sword to convert university students, professors, doctors, engineers, scientists, sportsmen, celebrities and even ex-islamphobians.
> 
> And thank god I am not a hindu.



Yeah thank god for that! and what's the whole world - a couple of retards, and read my post again - I clearly said by force or by teachings, it is universal knowledge that Islam has indulged in conversion by the sword, don't be delusional that it was not.



> No...conversions happen and are valid.



No, those are pseudo conversions and not actually a drive - Hindu's never pursue anyone to convert to Hinduism.


----------



## Bhairava

You would make a good politician.



Oscar said:


> ...
> 
> In that manner.. even the Buddist faith.. or Hinduism is Alien..



No it aint. Can you explain the foreign content of Hinduism or Buddhism..I mean well established facts and not theories ?



illusion8 said:


> No, those are pseudo conversions and not actually a drive - Hindu's never pursue anyone to convert to Hinduism.



True. But they are still not invalid. You dont have to be born a Hindu to be a Hindu.


----------



## jetti

None. Pakistan doesnt have any............ 

indian culture


----------



## RazPaK

Clearly the intention of Indians was to piss off Pakistanis on this thread.

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## jetti

RazPaK said:


> Clearly the intention of Indians was to piss off Pakistanis on this thread.



do not off, on



Myth_buster_1 said:


> When Islam entered the region hinduism became irrelevant to the enlightened people thus the mass conversion took place and thats why today Islam is the fasted growing religion despite cowards like you try their utter most to slander the religion of truth.



Truth has no religion.


----------



## Jackdaws

Myth_buster_1 said:


> When Islam entered the region hinduism became irrelevant to the enlightened people thus the mass conversion took place and thats why today Islam is the fasted growing religion despite cowards like you try their utter most to slander the religion of truth.



Enlightened people! LOL.

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## 474474

jetti said:


> Truth has no religion.



That replies all the indian enquieries


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## 474474

Gigawatt said:


> You don't know anything about North India. Urdu is Khariboli with loaned nouns from Persian and Arabic. Khariboli evolved from Shauraseni Prakrit.
> 
> So, I always amazed how the sole bearer of IVC can claim Urdu of Ganga valley civilization.



Loaned nouns from persian or arabic? Read some history Urdu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia get that in your head. we are simple carrying the legacy. And we all know how ganga is full of civilization!


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## INDIC

474474 said:


> Loaned nouns from persian or arabic? Read some history Urdu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia get that in your head. we are simple carrying the legacy. And we all know how ganga is full of civilization!



Dude are you serious about this.  From your link. 



> Urdu means "(military) camp" in the Hindustani language, from Turkish ordu meaning "army"; and *Urdu language was the language of the camp when Nader Shah of Persia (Iran) invaded India. Nader Shah set up his camp in what is now modern day Pakistan, and from here the Khariboli speaking Indians and the Persian speaking Iranians (Persians) mingled together and a third language, Urdu was born.*


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## Myth_buster_1

illusion8 said:


> Yeah thank god for that! and what's the whole world - a couple of retards, and read my post again - I clearly said by force or by teachings, it is universal knowledge that Islam has indulged in conversion by the sword, don't be delusional that it was not..


A couple of retards? Now if you take a moment from your useless life and actually for once do a research and you will come to know that people from all walks of life are converting to Islam. I can prove you that 53% of kids in India are sexually molested and i bet you cant provide one substantial evidence that only couple of retards (mentallly challage) people are converting to Islam. The retard here is you.


> No, those are pseudo conversions and not actually a drive - Hindu's never pursue anyone to convert to Hinduism


Hindu Attacks on Christians in India - YouTube


----------



## Myth_buster_1

illusion8 said:


> Yeah thank god for that! and what's the whole world - a couple of retards, and read my post again - I clearly said by force or by teachings, it is universal knowledge that Islam has indulged in conversion by the sword, don't be delusional that it was not..


A couple of retards? Now if you take a moment from your useless life and actually for once do a research and you will come to know that people from all walks of life are converting to Islam. I can prove you that 53% of kids in India are sexually molested and i bet you cant provide one substantial evidence that only couple of retards (mentallly challage) people are converting to Islam. The retard here is you.


> No, those are pseudo conversions and not actually a drive - Hindu's never pursue anyone to convert to Hinduism


Hindu Attacks on Christians in India - YouTube


----------



## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> Word Hind and Hindu was given by Iranians some around 500BC, 2500 years ago. Hindustan was given by Turks, no denying that.



the word hindu was given some around 500BC ,2500  OH MY GOD  .....it was given to u in AD ... It were the Muslim invaders (Ghorids) who for the first time in history imposed the foreign term Hindu on the many different peoples and religions of south Asia......
The term Hinduism was given by the British colonialists. Not a single pre-Muslim/British era Vedic, Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South Asian scripture/inscription mentions the word Hindu/Hinduism..
EVEN the word hind is not mentioned in rig-veda ......
dravidian were not called hindu ........
ACTUALLY U HAVE NO ANY PARTICULARY NAME TO BE CALLED LIKE WE HAVE THE NAME MUSLIM .......


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## Johny D

what Pakistani culture ? guys, I can understand religious faith but guess culture does not change in decades just by changing the border lines...we have a common culture..

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## illusion8

Myth_buster_1 said:


> A couple of retards? Now if you take a moment from your useless life and actually for once do a research and you will come to know that people from all walks of life are converting to Islam. I can prove you that 53% of kids in India are sexually molested and i bet you cant provide one substantial evidence that only couple of retards (mentallly challage) people are converting to Islam. The retard here is you.
> 
> Hindu Attacks on Christians in India - YouTube





> the convinces the world that you guys suffer from syndrome of delusional.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...akistani-culture-indian-29.html#ixzz27hjEDbMp



The world as per you is as per me of a couple of retards . You need to read a post properly before replying to it. 

And, I can pull up plenty of topics of what exactly is happening to everyone including minorities and children and women in Pakistan. Here's a general link though Put Pakistan on genocide watch: US think tank


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## pakfoj

i think most of the culture comes from the Mughals, who were muslims. so technically there is no indian culture (apart from religion off course) the true "indian" culture comes from Mughal muslims(customs, religious, clothing, food, architecture, and even language, etc) which can now be seen mostly in Pakistan and india for that matter.

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## illusion8

pakfoj said:


> i think most of the culture comes from the Mughals, who were muslims. so technically there is no indian culture (apart from religion off course) the true "indian" culture comes from Mughal muslims(customs, religious, clothing, food, architecture, and even language, etc) which can now be seen mostly in Pakistan and india for that matter.



It's a mixture - ancient Indian culture spruced up with mughal, british, french, portuguese, a bit of chinese, some arab etc, But the essence is majorly Indian through the ages.


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## INDIC

pk_baloch said:


> the word hindu was given some around 500BC ,2500  OH MY GOD  .....it was given to u in AD ... It were the Muslim invaders (Ghorids) who for the first time in history imposed the foreign term Hindu on the many different peoples and religions of south Asia......
> The term Hinduism was given by the British colonialists. Not a single pre-Muslim/British era Vedic, Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South Asian scripture/inscription mentions the word Hindu/Hinduism..
> EVEN the word hind is not mentioned in rig-veda ......
> dravidian were not called hindu ........
> ACTUALLY U HAVE NO ANY PARTICULARY NAME TO BE CALLED LIKE WE HAVE THE NAME MUSLIM .......



Iranians were the inventor of the names Hind , Hindu, others just copied it through Persian language. When Iran conquered Parts of present day Pakistan in 500 BC, these names were given by Iranians based on name of Indus river.


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## Myth_buster_1

illusion8 said:


> The world as per you is as per me of a couple of retards . You need to read a post properly before replying to it.


 You only a fool. Prove it to me that people converting to Islam in Western World are mentally challenged people other wise you should consider yourself as a mentally challenged subject. 


> And, I can pull up plenty of topics of what exactly is happening to everyone including minorities and children and women in Pakistan. Here's a general link though Put Pakistan on genocide watch: US think tank


Okay, at least 53% of Pakistani children are not being sexually molested meaning if either you or the next indian next to you were sexually molested. India has an amenity with the West so what ever genocide it commits is irrelevant to them just like israel who commit mass genocide on daily bases. Persecution of Christians sikh and Muslims goes un heard in the world where as one hindu death in Pakistan will be portrayed as mass genocide. 
Now go away mr. Victim.


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## Icewolf

Gigawatt said:


> Word Hind and Hindu was given by Iranians some around 500BC, 2500 years ago. Hindustan was given by Turks, no denying that.



Hind and Hindu was given by Arabs to name people who live near Sindhu River. Another proof of Hindus copying everything


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## Last Hope

All of the Pakistani culture. 

From centuries old tradition which we inherited from our ancestors who shared same history to the religion, which has touches or actually additions from the Indian culture.


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## Myth_buster_1

Icewolf said:


> Hind and Hindu was given by Arabs to name people who live near Sindhu River. *Another proof of Hindus copying everything*


if you want to prove someone wrong dont end your argument with a stupid punch line because what ever sense you made will go to waste.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

what a stupid thread; is there even such thing as "one indian culture" ??? you guys have more than 2 dozen ethnic groups, hundreds of languages.....there are people who have nothing in common with eachother within india

so how can you broaden it further and ask a question about Pakistan (another country consisting of different groups but all tied together by common faith and common interests)

Pakistani culture and sub-cultures within is a study of its own. Our heritage, etc. which we are very proud of.

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## INDIC

Icewolf said:


> Hind and Hindu was given by Arabs to name people who live near Sindhu River. Another proof of Hindus copying everything



East of Sindhu river.


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## Myth_buster_1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what a stupid thread; is there even such thing as "one indian culture" ??? you guys have more than 2 dozen ethnic groups, hundreds of languages.....there are people who have nothing in common with eachother within india
> 
> so how can you broaden it further and ask a question about Pakistan (another country consisting of different groups but all tied together by common faith and common interests)
> 
> Pakistani culture and sub-cultures within is a study of its own. Our heritage, etc. which we are very proud of.



Our heritage will soon disappear into the culture of bollywood.


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## PakistaniPacifist

First of, what is &#8216;Pakistani culture&#8217;? What is &#8216;Indian culture&#8217;? Only when we can explain those terms, can we fully tackle this issue. Sadly, Indians, have a desire to align themselves to Pakistanis. 

As a Pakistani, my &#8216;culture (very north of Pak)&#8217; differs to other Pakistanis let alone Indians. Honestly, I&#8217;ve got nothing in common with Indians on a cultural level. I don&#8217;t say that to be mean, but when I see their wedding/customs they&#8217;re totally alien to &#8216;our&#8217; own.


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## Myth_buster_1

PakistaniPacifist said:


> , but when I see their wedding/customs they&#8217;re totally alien to &#8216;our&#8217; own.



Other then nikha pretty much the rest of it is similar to indian.


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## BRICS

While on the subject of Indian culture (whatever that means), can someone please explain when, why and how Bharat pita (father) became Bharat mata (mother)?

How did he become her? Doesn't make any sense! Bharat is a guy's name, Bharat was a king who supposedly ruled the Indian sub continent once upon a time. When and why did the switch happen?


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## Karachiite

BRICS said:


> While on the subject of Indian culture (whatever that means), can someone please explain when, why and how Bharat pita (father) became Bharat mata (mother)?
> 
> How did he become her? Doesn't make any sense! Bharat is a guy's name, Bharat was a king who supposedly ruled the Indian sub continent once upon a time. When and why did the switch happen?



He underwent a sex change operation.

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## ajtr

BRICS said:


> While on the subject of Indian culture (whatever that means), can someone please explain when, why and how Bharat pita (father) became Bharat mata (mother)?
> 
> How did he become her? Doesn't make any sense! Bharat is a guy's name, Bharat was a king who supposedly ruled the Indian sub continent once upon a time. When and why did the switch happen?


 Oh ignarant you...when you use hindi words then dont write them in roman and confuse yourself and confuse others too......



*"&#2349;&#2352;&#2340;"* =Bharat (Name of the king"

*"&#2349;&#2366;&#2352;&#2340;"*=Bh*&#257;*rat (country) - pay attention to * "&#257;"* pronounced as "aa"



Karachiite said:


> He underwent a sex change operation.


Kahan se nautanki UP wale aa jate hain.UP ganwar chahe india mai ho ya chahe pak main ganwar hi rahta hai....

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## Karachiite

ajtr said:


> Kahan se nautanki UP wale aa jate hain.UP ganwar chahe india mai ho ya chahe pak main ganwar hi rahta hai....



Lmao look who's talking. Btw Rampuris are known as nawabs and nobles so yeaah, our history is too rich for you people


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## karan21

From language to clothes to food to movies to jewellery everything is same. Only some people in north Pakistan are indegeneous rest of Pakistan is nothing but Indian looking and Indian culture following people.


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## Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad

I think that although Pakistan shares some cultural roots with India, it is very much an independent country culturally. Pakistan has personalized culture different from India.

They are two different separate countries and claiming that Pakistani culture is Indian is saying Pakistan is 

Seems like someone is jealous of Pakistani culture? Claiming it is Indian.

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## Arya Desa

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> I think that although Pakistan shares some cultural roots with India, it is very much an independent country culturally. Pakistan has personalized culture different from India.
> 
> They are two different separate countries and claiming that Pakistani culture is Indian is saying Pakistan is
> 
> Seems like someone is jealous of Pakistani culture? Claiming it is Indian.



Sir you are absolutely correct. Pakistan as a nation and as a culture is completely distinct from Mother India. Pakistan culture is from the Indus Valley period while India is a created country that came into existence in 1947. Furthermore, Indians are created people.

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## RazPaK

Arya Desa said:


> Sir you are absolutely correct. Pakistan as a nation and as a culture is completely distinct from Mother India. Pakistan culture is from the Indus Valley period while India is a created country that came into existence in 1947. Furthermore, Indians are created people.



Why don't you list examples about what is the same between you and I?


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## Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad

Arya Desa said:


> Sir you are absolutely correct. Pakistan as a nation and as a culture is completely distinct from Mother India. Pakistan culture is from the Indus Valley period while India is a created country that came into existence in 1947. Furthermore, Indians are created people.



Yes, Pakistan has ancient history, maybe Pakistan and India share some roots, but now we are two different things. Anyway, India became independent from Britain in 1947 anyway. How much of Indian culture is British?


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## Arya Desa

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> Yes, Pakistan has ancient history, maybe Pakistan and India share some roots, but now we are two different things. Anyway, India became independent from Britain in 1947 anyway. How much of Indian culture is British?



AS much as Pakistan's is Chinese. Ming Dynasty ---> Multan? Coincidence, I think not!


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## scorpionx

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> I think that although Pakistan shares some cultural roots with India, it is very much an independent country culturally. Pakistan has personalized culture different from India.
> 
> They are two different separate countries and claiming that Pakistani culture is Indian is saying Pakistan is
> 
> Seems like someone is jealous of Pakistani culture? Claiming it is Indian.



Considering you are not a false flagger, you know nothing about India and neither bothered yourself to open up the pages of history books. But what amuses me first is you are completely in oblivion about your own past too.



Karachiite said:


> He underwent a sex change operation.



Your culture can never be Indian, it must not be.


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## Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad

scorpionx said:


> Considering you are not a false flagger, you know nothing about India and neither bothered yourself to open up the pages of history books. But what amuses me first is you are completely in oblivion about your own past too.
> 
> 
> 
> Your culture can never be Indian, it must not be.



Very interesting assumption, but there is no point in arguing with a troll.


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## scorpionx

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> Very interesting assumption, but there is no point in *arguing with a troll*.





Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> Yes, Pakistan has ancient history, maybe Pakistan and India share some roots, *but now we are two different things.* Anyway, India became independent from Britain in 1947 anyway. How much of Indian culture is British?



You are having only 6 posts in pocket but I admire your confidence.
Now take a deep breathe, buy a dictionary first. Or google search what troll means. Then go to market,buy a map. locate India first, then try to argue like a literate.

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## Arya Desa

RazPaK said:


> Why don't you list examples about what is the same between you and I?



We have *nothing* in common its not like you:
1) Listen to our music
2) speak our language
3) copy our marriage customs
4) watch our entertainment industry
5) Name your money "rupees" like us


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## Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad

scorpionx said:


> Having only 6 posts in pocket I admire your confidence.



Again, interesting *assumption*. There is no reason to not be confident when one calls another ignorant, without stating any information to support his point whatsoever. You are not inviting intelligent discussion whatsoever, just blatantly ridiculing me. # of posts = the validity in the context of my posts. Thats quite egotistical of you. Obvious troll is obvious.

Be gone now troll.


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## humanfirst

Arya Desa said:


> We have *nothing* in common its not like you:
> 1) Listen to our music
> 2) speak our language
> 3) copy our marriage customs
> 4) watch our entertainment industry
> 5) Name your money "rupees" like us



And using a north indian language-urdu as national language..And a gujrati muslim being father of pakistan..


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## Arya Desa

humanfirst said:


> And using a north indian language-urdu as national language..And a gujrati muslim being father of pakistan..



You would think the way these people talk that they are the children of China and Saudi Arabia.


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## A.Rafay

now beleive me im laughing hard at this username *Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad*

where do these guy get there usernames from?


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## scorpionx

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> Again, interesting *assumption*. There is no reason to not be confident when one calls another ignorant, without stating any information to support his point whatsoever. You are not inviting intelligent discussion whatsoever, just *blatantly ridiculing me. # of posts = the validity in the context of my posts. *Thats quite egotistical of you. Obvious troll is obvious.
> 
> Be gone now troll.


Improve some comprehension skills too
Do your posts invite any intelligent discussion?


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## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Thats why hindusim is merely concentrated in India while Islam is the fastest growing religion not in the Muslim world but in West as well!



Lol...Because Hindu are self contained, they are not in race of increasing head counts to prove their superiority & advertising their religions like Marketing company do. 

Hinduism is not a religion which treats other religions or faith as wrong or sinful.

It doesnt have religious verses which ask devotees to convert non-hindus & promise them rewards in jannat or swarga. 

Neither it believes that ALMIGHTY GOD is one & only he needs to worshipped on contrary it believes there are 100s of way to reach God.

Also Hindu believes every human being is born as Hindu, he baptized to islam or christianity after his birth.

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## Pride

ajtr said:


> Oh ignarant you...when you use hindi words then dont write them in roman and confuse yourself and confuse others too......
> 
> 
> 
> *"&#2349;&#2352;&#2340;"* =Bharat (Name of the king"
> 
> *"&#2349;&#2366;&#2352;&#2340;"*=Bh*&#257;*rat (country) - pay attention to * "&#257;"* pronounced as "aa"
> 
> *Kahan se nautanki UP wale aa jate hain.UP ganwar chahe india mai ho ya chahe pak main ganwar hi rahta hai*....



You dare me not.. Dont you!


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## Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad

scorpionx said:


> Improve some comprehension skills too
> Do your posts invite any intelligent discussion?



What is there to comprehend? You have no intelligent argument at all. Now you are again, countering the issue by calling me unintelligent?

Are you even trying?


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## kumarkumar1867

474474 said:


> The ******** is strong in this one.
> Islam is the right religion, the only truth. If you don't believe that then whatever. It has nothing to do with parents, I have no interest in anything else, i have studied all and come to my conclusions. Being born is a minor influence to thsoe with higher intellectual capability, you honestly think following your ancsestors is something to be proud of?
> But whatever, Islam is the religion of Adam AS, so before hinduism Islam was still there



Look dude... First, before commenting on my post kindly check out the post i responded to. Yes our ancestors were unchanged uninfluenced by islamic, portugic , turkic & persian invasion, they have retained essence of our thousands of years old culture, yes they have same roots of traditions & ideology what their ancestors had ....doesn't that make it obvious that we should be proud of our ancestors??

Second, I respect your personal beliefs & conclusions but that doesnt mean We should agree with them. Islam is way of truth, no objection to that but so is Christainity or Hinduism. Truth can be reached by many ways but you pakistani muslims ( please read pakistani ) will never understand so.

Third, about Adam AS & stuff, no debates, because Christian think he was Christain & Jews think he was Jew, you are doing nothing different than claiming like others do.

For us, Shiva originated from Void, he created universe, Manu was the first human & our vishnu avtaras ( which are atleast 8000-10000 years old ) goes well with 19th century's Evolution Theory by Darwin.

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## Karachiite

scorpionx said:


> Your culture can never be Indian, it must not be.



Lol no one wants to be Indian you dumbf-ck. Can't you comprehend that by looking at this thread? Us Pakistanis do not want to be associated with your kind. Even Muhajirs don't want to be associated with you people. Thats why we left India in the first place.

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## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> The more Indians speak the more the convinces the world that you guys suffer from syndrome of delusional.



As a Pakistani its obvious to have such view about Indians.We understand.

But World including india thinks same about Pakistanis, hope you understand it too.



> No one in the west are chasing around anybody with a sword to convert university students, professors, doctors, engineers, scientists, sportsmen, celebrities and even ex-islamphobians.



Lol...it isnt 7th or 8th century dude otherwise you did the same what are imagining right now.
No offences but all abrahamic religions comes with this quest for converting peoples by hook or crook.



> *And thank god I am not a hindu*.



Yes Thank God !



474474 said:


> Funny how buddists never cry ******** in the same way you do?



Yes may be, but some go beyond crying.
They are beating a*ses of innocent muslims for sins of their ancestors.

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## Myth_buster_1

Arya Desa said:


> We have *nothing* in common its not like you:
> 1) Listen to our music
> 2) *speak our language*
> 3) copy our marriage customs
> 4) watch our entertainment industry
> 5) Name your money "rupees" like us



India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. Take the entire Indus civil but Muslim heritage of India belongs to us.


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## kumarkumar1867

cb4 said:


> Ruling is not something to be proud of. If Pakistan didn't have monarchy then it tells us that we were democratic.



Salves have no monarchy nor democracy.
Western parts of India ( Present day Pakistan) was much effected by invaders & was much enslaved than other parts of India.



> While you guys were washing your masters underwear, we were living in peace and in equality.



Your roots are from Kashmir, Right?? There were no muslim rulers there, hope you know whose underwears you guys washed in those times.


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## scorpionx

Karachiite said:


> Lol no one wants to be Indian you dumbf-ck. Can't you comprehend that by looking at this thread? Us Pakistanis do not want to be associated with your kind. Even Muhajirs don't want to be associated with you people. Thats why we left India in the first place.


Thats what I said.I agree with you. No point in dialing 911


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## vsdoc

I think the thread has degenerated severely overnight.

Maybe because Oscar and I were asleep ......

There are very fundamental, core issues on which Islam cannot blend into the Indian fabric.

Its taken a thousand years, and I do not think its going to get any better than what we have today.

At best, there will be a detente.

I hope and pray we never see the worst.


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## Black Widow

Myth_buster_1 said:


> India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. Take the entire Indus civil but Muslim heritage of India belongs to us.




Not required...


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## Black Widow

Myth_buster_1 said:


> India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. Take the entire Indus civil but Muslim heritage of India belongs to us.




Not required...


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## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> When Islam entered the region hinduism became irrelevant to the enlightened people thus the mass conversion took place and thats why today Islam is the fasted growing religion despite cowards like you try their utter most to slander the religion of truth.



Lol.... I am just expressing my view, how does it make me a coward??

ok thats fine with me. Read my post once again to understand it better. 

Islam is not a bad religion at all but it was not embraced by masses peacefully like people claim here. Invaders enforced it to majority through economic favours, through fears of prosecution,by applying taxes like Jiziyas.We are not living in Zia's pakistan where text book history & facts are manipulated, we know better about conversion techniques used by muslim rulers than you do.

But do you know DAR-UL-HARB & DAR-UL-ISLAM concepts?? Study a little about it and then lets discuss about it.


----------



## ajtr

Karachiite said:


> Lmao look who's talking. Btw Rampuris are known as nawabs and nobles so yeaah, our history is too rich for you people


yeah nawabs of shatranj ke khiladi moive..............


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## ajtr

scorpionx said:


> Your culture can never be Indian, it must not be.


no doubt he is mohajir either way bein india or in pakistan....


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## kumarkumar1867

pk_baloch said:


> the word hindu was given some around 500BC ,2500  OH MY GOD  .....it was given to u in AD ... It were the Muslim invaders (Ghorids) who for the first time in history imposed the foreign term Hindu on the many different peoples and religions of south Asia......



Name Indica (from which India & Hindu derived) was given by Europeans long before Islam came to existence.

Smell some coffee kid.


Indica (Arrian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ajtr

Pride said:


> You dare me not.. Dont you!


I'll always...especially UPites chahe india ho ya pak.


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## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. Take the entire Indus civil but *Muslim heritage of India belongs to us*.



Why???A mere 65 year old country thinks its official owner or everything that realtes to Islam which is itself 1400 year old?? 

We didnt asked for a seperate hindu state...Being a secular country India is meant for all hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs, etc.

Everything that heritage of Indian muslims or muslims born on our soil belongs to us. Is that difficult to understand ???

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## kumarkumar1867

ajtr said:


> Oh ignarant you...when you use hindi words then dont write them in roman and confuse yourself and confuse others too......
> 
> 
> 
> *"&#2349;&#2352;&#2340;"* =Bharat (Name of the king"
> 
> *"&#2349;&#2366;&#2352;&#2340;"*=Bh*&#257;*rat (country) - pay attention to * "&#257;"* pronounced as "aa"



Looking for gender & sexes in name of country or region is itself sign of low life ideologies. No need to explain them much.Its above the level of their intellect.


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## Zarvan

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Looking for gender & sexes in name of country or region is itself sign of low life ideologies. No need to explain them much.Its above the level of their intellect.


Indian needs to check their culture first their Bollywood movies are not just copy of western movies in all aspects so and their youth follows bollywood a lot and also the old culture which many times they show as their own are of those invaders who kicked their *** for hundreds of years so Indians need to check their culture first before telling us

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## Rusty

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Look dude... First, before commenting on my post kindly check out the post i responded to. Yes our ancestors were unchanged uninfluenced by islamic, portugic , turkic & persian invasion, they have retained essence of our thousands of years old culture, yes they have same roots of traditions & ideology what their ancestors had ....doesn't that make it obvious that we should be proud of our ancestors??
> 
> Second, I respect your personal beliefs & conclusions but that doesnt mean We should agree with them. Islam is way of truth, no objection to that but so is Christainity or Hinduism. Truth can be reached by many ways but you pakistani muslims ( please read pakistani ) will never understand so.
> 
> Third, about Adam AS & stuff, no debates, because Christian think he was Christain & Jews think he was Jew, you are doing nothing different than claiming like others do.
> 
> For us, Shiva originated from Void, he created universe, Manu was the first human & our vishnu avtaras ( which are atleast 8000-10000 years old ) goes well with 19th century's Evolution Theory by Darwin.



1+1=2,5, and 8
in the above statement, there is no shame in saying that one is right and the other 2 are wrong. And people don't need to take offence when I say that the other 2 are wrong. You are free to believe that all 3 are right, but that doesn't magically make you "open minded" or me more "closed minded"

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## Rusty

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol.... I am just expressing my view, how does it make me a coward??
> 
> ok thats fine with me. Read my post once again to understand it better.
> 
> Islam is not a bad religion at all but no its was not embraced by masses peacefully like people claim here. Invaders enforced it to majority through economic favours, through fears of prosecution,by applying taxes like Jiziyas.We are not living in Zia's pakistan where text book history & facts are manipulated, we know better about conversion techniques used by muslim rulers than you do.
> 
> But do you know DAR-UL-HARB & DAR-UL-ISLAM concepts?? Study a little about it and then lets discuss about it.



Tell me, in this fantasy history of yours, did muslims also fly in on dragons and cast spells on the poor innocent Hindus that made them want to convert?

Get a grip man, no more loony toons for you.


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## kumarkumar1867

Zarvan said:


> Indian needs to check their culture first their Bollywood movies are not just copy of western movies in all aspects so and their youth follows bollywood a lot and also the old culture which many times they show as their own are of those invaders who kicked their *** for hundreds of years so Indians need to check their culture first before telling us



Dude movies & bollywood stuffs are for entertainment purpose.Its also a money making bussiness. Best things across the world are showcased to Indian masses for grabbing profits by producers & directors. Its called benchmarking not copying hope you are well educated to understand the difference between too. 

Second bollywood movies are far away from reality, the only people who can get spoiled by bollywood is Pakistanis, we dont care much about it. Forget its impact on culture.If centuries of foreign influence & trade cannot harm our culture, what the heck Bollywood shollywood is??? 
But I advice please dont underestimate Bollywood, it especially designed to corrupt your culture, if you have any of your own.

Third, the more you pakistanis comment about invaders kicking ***** more i laugh at you, beacuse people living in sindh & punjab were more a*s-beaten by intruders than any other parts of india.


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## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> 1+1=2,5, and 8
> in the above statement, there is no shame in saying that one is right and the other 2 are wrong. And people don't need to take offence when I say that the other 2 are wrong. You are free to believe that all 3 are right, but that doesn't magically make you "open minded" or me more "closed minded"



The difference lies in how the other faiths go about it.

Which in term comes from being more secure and confident of one's beliefs I suppose.

No other faith goes around proclaiming from the rooftops that they are the final answer and that theirs is the only God.

You believe it, great.

But keep it to yourselves.

We do not need to hear it.


----------



## RazPaK

Karachiite said:


> Lol no one wants to be Indian you dumbf-ck. Can't you comprehend that by looking at this thread? Us Pakistanis do not want to be associated with your kind. Even Muhajirs don't want to be associated with you people. Thats why we left India in the first place.



Lmao. Dude that was hilarious.


----------



## Arya Desa

Zarvan said:


> Indian needs to check their culture first their Bollywood movies are not just copy of western movies in all aspects so and their youth follows bollywood a lot and also the old culture which many times they show as their own are of those invaders who kicked their *** for hundreds of years so Indians need to check their culture first before telling us



Your not the descendent of the Turkish barbarians; you have not blood link with them. I guess all western movies are musicals. Sir, you are a fool *low* caste.


----------



## scorpionx

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Looking for gender & sexes in name of country or region is itself sign of low life ideologies. No need to explain them much.Its above the level of their intellect.


After being running out of logical explainations IVC and attacking mothers and sisters to personal level are the last resorst of* morons*. We have to get used to it.


----------



## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> The difference lies in how the other faiths go about it.
> 
> Which in term comes from being more secure and confident of one's beliefs I suppose.
> 
> No other faith goes around proclaiming from the rooftops that they are the final answer and that theirs is the only God.
> 
> You believe it, great.
> 
> But keep it to yourselves.
> 
> We do not need to hear it.



so? what does that matter?
Why does it matter what other religions do in comparison to Islam?
No other Religion deifies the cow as much as Hinduism, now can I make a bunch of negative assertions based on that? By your logic I can 
(BTW, Christianity, Bahai, Ahmedis, And a whole bunch of smaller religions do in fact proclaim"from the rooftops" that they have the final answer, including some Dravidian based cults)

If you don't want to hear about our message then good for you, no one is forcing you to. 
But that does not mean others don't want to hear it, and they have heard it and accepted Islam according. 
You can't seem to understand this and so your mind makes up these crazy fantasies of coerced conversions and what not.

If you guys don't spread your religion then that is your prerogative, but don't get all bitter and angry when Islam spreads it's message and people accept it. Who is stopping you from spreading your message?


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## Zarvan

Arya Desa said:


> Your not the descendent of the Turkish barbarians; you have not blood link with them. I guess all western movies are musicals. Sir, you are a fool *low* caste.


Sir you copy their stories you copy their actions and you come their most pathetic vulgar scenes and following their vulgar culture


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## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> so? what does that matter?
> Why does it matter what other religions do in comparison to Islam?
> No other Religion deifies the cow as much as Hinduism, now can I make a bunch of negative assertions based on that? By your logic I can
> (BTW, Christianity, Bahai, Ahmedis, And a whole bunch of smaller religions do in fact proclaim"from the rooftops" that they have the final answer, including some Dravidian based cults)
> 
> If you don't want to hear about our message then good for you, no one is forcing you to.
> But that does not mean others don't want to hear it, and they have heard it and accepted Islam according.
> You can't seem to understand this and so your mind makes up these crazy fantasies of coerced conversions and what not.
> 
> If you guys don't spread your religion then that is your prerogative, but don't get all bitter and angry when Islam spreads it's message and people accept it. Who is stopping you from spreading your message?



Do it quietly and out of sight.

You are invading the freedom and privacy of others like me who do not want to hear what you have to say.

We of ancient faiths liberally borrowed from by newer faiths. Repackaged. And presented as their version of the final truth.

Good for them. Good for you.

But keep us out.

The fact that you do not, neither subtely or in your face, leads to resentment and the backlash you feel across the world.

Am sure you can understand that.

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## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> 1+1=2,5, and 8
> in the above statement, there is no shame in saying that one is right and the other 2 are wrong. And people don't need to take offence when I say that the other 2 are wrong. You are free to believe that all 3 are right, but that doesn't magically make you "open minded" or me more "closed minded"



Well not your fault. You are upbrought & groomed with thought that only one is right. Mere thinking that other options can be right too is a blasphemy for you. Your rules are binded by books & brains are programmed by rules.No questions can be asked about authencity of rules that results in minds like you. We are on different platforms here we are taught to believe what we see what we understand not what we are told by texts. 

We cant be same. Lets better not discuss what is a close mind & whats open mind.




Rusty said:


> Tell me, in this fantasy history of yours, did muslims also fly in on dragons and cast spells on the poor innocent Hindus that made them want to convert?
> 
> Get a grip man, no more loony toons for you.



If my post makes you feel so then I can do nothing than feel sorry for you.

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## ajtr

Zarvan said:


> Indian needs to check their culture first their Bollywood movies are not just copy of western movies in all aspects so and their youth follows bollywood a lot and also the old culture which many times they show as their own are of those invaders who kicked their *** for hundreds of years so Indians need to check their culture first before telling us


Those who can equate culture that has evolved over thousands yrs to a 3 hrs of a movie does tell a lot about their intellect.

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## Arya Desa

Zarvan said:


> Sir you copy their stories you copy their actions and you come their most pathetic vulgar scenes and following their vulgar culture



Their "vulgar" culture doesn't riot after someone makes a documentary, their "vulgar" culture doesn't put the value of a woman at 1/4 that of man, their "vulgar" culture doesn't consider music and art haram. So in the end who has the vulgar culture?


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## WAR-rior

Myth_buster_1 said:


> We are glad that our ancestors changed their religion to Islam and I am proud Muslim and thank your ALLAH i do not belong to your religion.



As if any person will say that the religion he follows is bad.  

The matter of fact is even if u r muslims, u r different from a african, arab, persian, south east asian, russian, european muslims. U r muslims from subcontinent. Tommorow if i follow islam, i wont stop doing my daily routine, i wont stop living my normal life. the only thing will change is my faith and the way i worship god. Learn the defination and difference between RELIGION and CULTURE.

You guyz cant understand this simple goddamn logic. IF this is what muslims are like, I m happy I am not. Hell with all your islam being a tolerant, logical religion claims. The discussion n comments of ppl here very well shows da truth.

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## ajtr

Zarvan said:


> Sir you copy their stories you copy their actions and you come their most pathetic vulgar scenes and following their vulgar culture


how do you know?


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## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> Do it quietly and out of sight.
> 
> You are invading the freedom and privacy of others like me who do not want to hear what you have to say.
> 
> We of ancient faiths liberally borrowed from by newer faiths. Repackaged. And presented as their version of the final truth.
> 
> Good for them. Good for you.
> 
> But keep us out.
> 
> The fact that you do not, neither subtely or in your face, leads to resentment and the backlash you feel across the world.
> 
> Am sure you can understand that.




Basically what you said was you enjoy your windows 95 OS. Hahaha.


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## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> Basically what you said was you enjoy your windows 95 OS. Hahaha.



Basically what I said is that I do not need a Chinese ripoff. And definitely not a Saudi one. Hahaha


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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> Do it quietly and out of sight.
> 
> You are invading the freedom and privacy of others like me who do not want to hear what you have to say.
> 
> We of ancient faiths liberally borrowed from by newer faiths. Repackaged. And presented as their version of the final truth.
> 
> Good for them. Good for you.
> 
> But keep us out.
> 
> The fact that you do not, neither subtely or in your face, leads to resentment and the backlash you feel across the world.
> 
> Am sure you can understand that.



What the heck is "freedom of privacy" ?
do you mean the right to privacy?
I feel like I am teaching an elementary class when I say this....
You don't have the right to privacy in a public area.

And does your "ancient" faith also allow you to speak on behalf of all humanity?

The best you can say is that YOU don't like to be preached to. Which is fine, you have that right. But you don't have the right to speak on behalf of Humanity. 

I think you are just bitter that millions of people have left your "ancient" religion for Islam and now you are just grasping at straws to justify your hate. 

It's okay, when I was a kid I loved Nintendo and hated PlayStation and I used to make up all kinds of excuses to hate it even though PlayStation had almost no affect on my life. 

Religions have the right to preach their messages, If Hindus don't use that right then that is a fault in Hinduism not a fault in other religions that do use that right.


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## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> Basically what I said is that I do not need a Chinese ripoff. And definitely not a Saudi one. Hahaha



Can't help If you have a inferiority complex about your religion. If you find peace in yours that is good, but why burn of others if they find solace in a different one?

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## ajtr

RazPaK said:


> Basically what you said was you enjoy your windows 95 OS. Hahaha.


No basically he said that indian culture evolved from windows 3.11 to 95 to all the version in the series over time period that its now enjoying windows 8 contours have gone through changes over time period but fundamentals have remained unchanged.

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## Rusty

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Well not your fault. You are upbrought & groomed with thought that only one is right. Mere thinking that other options can be right too is a blasphemy for you. Your rules are binded by books & brains are programmed by rules.No questions can be asked about authencity of rules that results in minds like you. We are on different platforms here we are taught to believe what we see what we understand not what we are told by texts.
> 
> We cant be same. Lets better not discuss what is a close mind & whats open mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If my post makes you feel so then I can do nothing than feel sorry for you.




And it is not your fault that you were brought up with no education. 
If you were educated you would realize that there was a reason for all the rules. 
There is a reason you color in the lines and there is a reason why 1+1=2 and not 5 or 8. 
Now I don't blame you, Your religion says that you can do what ever you want (but oddly enough, you must call yourself a Hindus while doing it, if you don't then you might be subjected to communal violence)


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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> Basically what you said was you enjoy your windows 95 OS. Hahaha.



It also means you should enjoy pirated copies or malaysian prints of original DVD

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## Rusty

RazPaK said:


> Basically what you said was you enjoy your windows 95 OS. Hahaha.



LOL, that's an amazing way to put it. 
But c'mon
Don't insult them with windows 95
They enjoy their DOS 1.0


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## RazPaK

ajtr said:


> No basically he said that indian culture evolved from windows 2.11 to 95 to all the version in the series over time period that its now enjoying windows 8 contours have gone through changes over time period but fundamentals have remained unchanged.



What are these fundamentals?

At one point Hindus are vegetarian, at other points they love beef and pork.

At another point they are conservative, and another point they literally think they have created pornography.

At one point they are monotheists, and another they are polytheists. 

This wishy washiness seems absurd and opportunistic to say the least.

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## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> What the heck is "freedom of privacy" ?
> do you mean the right to privacy?
> I feel like I am teaching an elementary class when I say this....
> You don't have the right to privacy in a public area.
> 
> And does your "ancient" faith also allow you to speak on behalf of all humanity?
> 
> The best you can say is that YOU don't like to be preached to. Which is fine, you have that right. But you don't have the right to speak on behalf of Humanity.
> 
> I think you are just bitter that millions of people have left your "ancient" religion for Islam and now you are just grasping at straws to justify your hate.
> 
> It's okay, when I was a kid I loved Nintendo and hated PlayStation and I used to make up all kinds of excuses to hate it even though PlayStation had almost no affect on my life.
> 
> Religions have the right to preach their messages, If Hindus don't use that right then that is a fault in Hinduism not a fault in other religions that do use that right.



Yes He doesnt have right to speak on behalf on Humanity neither do you.
If you want to spread your religion, its cool, do it. Help the people who comes to you & seek your advice & support.

PUBLIC MEIN APNI FAITH KA DHOL BAJAAOGE AUR DOOSRE FAITH KO CRITICIZE KAROGE TOH SAB TO TAKLEEF HI HOGI.

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## Rusty

ajtr said:


> No basically he said that indian culture evolved from windows 3.11 to 95 to all the version in the series over time period that its now enjoying windows 8 contours have gone through changes over time period but fundamentals have remained unchanged.



Not to beat this analogy to death but that makes no sense. 
Windows 8 is almost complacently new with NOTHING in common with windows 95 except a design heritage. Try running a windows 95 program on windows 7-8. You can't without emulators......actually now that I think of it....this is a fitting way to describe Hinduism


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> What the heck is "freedom of privacy" ?
> do you mean the right to privacy?
> I feel like I am teaching an elementary class when I say this....
> You don't have the right to privacy in a public area.



I said my freedom and privacy.

My freedom and my privavcy of not listening to evegelical stuff of faiths I have no interest in.

If I do, as a well informed member of the global fraternity, I know where to go to learn.

If I do not, I do not want unsolicited bombardment of the final truth. All 27 versions of it.

Its very much like the iritation one feels at getting mass sms's or emails. Or pesky phone calls from insurance and creit card companies.

If I need a new policy or card, I will call you.

DO NOT CALL ME!



> And does your "ancient" faith also allow you to speak on behalf of all humanity?
> 
> The best you can say is that YOU don't like to be preached to. Which is fine, you have that right. But you don't have the right to speak on behalf of Humanity.



I can only speak for myself. As can every member of humanity. The facts are out there. There are many INDIVIDUALS who are speaking out. Like me. With a whole lot of resentment. 

Even if all of them are convinced, and shut up, I am not, and will not. 



> I think you are just bitter that millions of people have left your "ancient" religion for Islam and now you are just grasping at straws to justify your hate.
> 
> It's okay, when I was a kid I loved Nintendo and hated PlayStation and I used to make up all kinds of excuses to hate it even though PlayStation had almost no affect on my life.
> 
> Religions have the right to preach their messages, If Hindus don't use that right then that is a fault in Hinduism not a fault in other religions that do use that right.



I am not a Hindu.

What I do or do not do with regard to my own faith or how I choose to spread it or not, is none of your business. As long as it does not directly affect you.

When you spread the final truth about your own indiscriminately, and openly proclaim from the rooftops that yours is the version to follow, and others are somehow lesser, you directly affect me.

And I will speak out and push back.

Count on it.

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## Rusty

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yes He doesnt have right to speak on behalf on Humanity neither do you.
> If you want to spread your religion, its cool, do it. Help the people who comes to you & seek your advice & support.
> 
> PUBLIC MEIN APNI FAITH KA DHOL BAJAAOGE AUR DOOSRE FAITH KO CRITICIZE KAROGE TOH SAB TO TAKLEEF HI HOGI.



I was kind of joking when I said you didn't get an education, but now I am starting to believe it is actually true. 
Please point out where I ever claimed to speak on behalf of Humanity?
You can't do it, because I never did it. 
And sorry, but I don't understand that underlined giberish. English please


----------



## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> Can't help If you have a inferiority complex about your religion. If you find peace in yours that is good, but why burn of others if they find solace in a different one?



Inferiority complex? 

Dont get me started man. 

I want to be around here for a month uninterrupted at least this time around.

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## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> And it is not your fault that you were brought up with no education.
> If you were educated you would realize that there was a reason for all the rules.
> There is a reason you color in the lines and there is a reason why 1+1=2 and not 5 or 8.
> Now I don't blame you, Your religion says that you can do what ever you want (but oddly enough, you must call yourself a Hindus while doing it, if you don't then you might be subjected to communal violence)



Dude, there are reasons of every rule but rules change according to time & society.

Our forefathers used to ride on horses & camels but we now we dont.They travelled on camels/horses & We drive in automobiles both are right according to their times. Time changed Rules changed so does the means of travelling.

You must be a school going kid to show your basic mathematics skills here. For you spirituality & religion must be as simple as 1+1=2 & exact single solution, being programmed by texted rules thats fine too understand.

For us, Religion is complex mathematics with infinite solutions subjected to limiting constraints & applied boundary conditions.

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## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> Inferiority complex?
> 
> Dont get me started man.
> 
> I want to be around here for a month uninterrupted at least this time around.



I don't understand. Last time you tried to sell your religion back to the Iranians they laughed you off the thread.

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## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> I don't understand. Last time you tried to sell your religion back to the Iranians they laughed you off the thread.



You do not need to understand.

You cannot understand.

There are insurmountable challenges.

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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> I said my freedom and privacy.
> 
> My freedom and my privavcy of not listening to evegelical stuff of faiths I have no interest in.
> 
> If I do, as a well informed member of the global fraternity, I know where to go to learn.
> 
> If I do not, I do not want unsolicited bombardment of the final truth. All 27 versions of it.
> 
> Its very much like the iritation one feels at getting mass sms's or emails. Or pesky phone calls from insurance and creit card companies.
> 
> If I need a new policy or card, I will call you.
> 
> DO NOT CALL ME!
> 
> 
> 
> I can only speak for myself. As can every member of humanity. The facts are out there. There are many INDIVIDUALS who are speaking out. Like me. With a whole lot of resentment.
> 
> Even if all of them are convinced, and shut up, I am not, and will not.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a Hindu.
> 
> What I do or do not do with regard to my own faith or how I choose to spread it or not, is none of your business. As long as it does not directly affect you.
> 
> When you spread the final truth about your own indiscriminately, and openly proclaim from the rooftops that yours is the version to follow, and others are somehow lesser, you directly affect me.
> 
> And I will speak out and push back.
> 
> Count on it.




My big question is, who is forcing you to?
Are you in some kind of cult jail where you are being forced to listen to evangelical stuff?
If you are not being physically restrained then what is forcing you from simply walking away from people who evangelize? 
That's just common sense to me but maybe it's a revelation to you.

The only people I hear who have a whole lot of resentment are Indian members on this forum. I have not met anyone else who makes up history on the basis of their resentment. 
No one is asking you to shut up...
Man I feel like I am having an argument with a 10 year old kid. 

let me lay this out like a KG teacher would. 

1. In public you don't have the right to privacy
that means that people HAVE the right to spread their message in public. 
So Pepsi is allowed to tell you about their product and so can any religion. 
2. If you don't want to listen to the message then that is your right. 
Pepsi will not force you to buy a Pepsi and neither will a religion force you to listen to their message. 
3. If you are annoyed with people spreading their message then that is YOUR problem, deal with it how you want but you have no right to tell them to stop. 
4. All religions have a right to spread their message. If Hinduism doesn't use this right then it is Hinduism's fault not other religions. So don't be bitter that others use this right
5. And finally, how does it affect you? Kindly tell me. Are they forcing you to listen? are they forcing you to come to their temple?

Again, you just sound like an angry kid that didn't get his way. I am sorry to tell you but in the grown up world you have some rights and others have some rights. The world will not bend to your feelings.



vsdoc said:


> I said my freedom and privacy.
> 
> My freedom and my privavcy of not listening to evegelical stuff of faiths I have no interest in.
> 
> If I do, as a well informed member of the global fraternity, I know where to go to learn.
> 
> If I do not, I do not want unsolicited bombardment of the final truth. All 27 versions of it.
> 
> Its very much like the iritation one feels at getting mass sms's or emails. Or pesky phone calls from insurance and creit card companies.
> 
> If I need a new policy or card, I will call you.
> 
> DO NOT CALL ME!
> 
> 
> 
> I can only speak for myself. As can every member of humanity. The facts are out there. There are many INDIVIDUALS who are speaking out. Like me. With a whole lot of resentment.
> 
> Even if all of them are convinced, and shut up, I am not, and will not.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a Hindu.
> 
> What I do or do not do with regard to my own faith or how I choose to spread it or not, is none of your business. As long as it does not directly affect you.
> 
> When you spread the final truth about your own indiscriminately, and openly proclaim from the rooftops that yours is the version to follow, and others are somehow lesser, you directly affect me.
> 
> And I will speak out and push back.
> 
> Count on it.




My big question is, who is forcing you to?
Are you in some kind of cult jail where you are being forced to listen to evangelical stuff?
If you are not being physically restrained then what is forcing you from simply walking away from people who evangelize? 
That's just common sense to me but maybe it's a revelation to you.

The only people I hear who have a whole lot of resentment are Indian members on this forum. I have not met anyone else who makes up history on the basis of their resentment. 
No one is asking you to shut up...
Man I feel like I am having an argument with a 10 year old kid. 

let me lay this out like a KG teacher would. 

1. In public you don't have the right to privacy
that means that people HAVE the right to spread their message in public. 
So Pepsi is allowed to tell you about their product and so can any religion. 
2. If you don't want to listen to the message then that is your right. 
Pepsi will not force you to buy a Pepsi and neither will a religion force you to listen to their message. 
3. If you are annoyed with people spreading their message then that is YOUR problem, deal with it how you want but you have no right to tell them to stop. 
4. All religions have a right to spread their message. If Hinduism doesn't use this right then it is Hinduism's fault not other religions. So don't be bitter that others use this right
5. And finally, how does it affect you? Kindly tell me. Are they forcing you to listen? are they forcing you to come to their temple?

Again, you just sound like an angry kid that didn't get his way. I am sorry to tell you but in the grown up world you have some rights and others have some rights. The world will not bend to your feelings.


----------



## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> You do not need to understand.
> 
> You cannot understand.
> 
> There are insurmountable challenges.



What more is there to understand?

You are blatantly Islamophobic.


Do you realize why most of the Indian Muslim members have stopped participating on the forum?

Well I would take a guess that it's because of the things they have to hear about their religion from fellow "countrymen".

Why don't you go and tell one of your countrymen that his religion is "repackaged"?

We obviously don't care, and you're not going to change anyone's religion amongst Pakistanis.

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## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> My big question is, who is forcing you to?
> Are you in some kind of cult jail where you are being forced to listen to evangelical stuff?
> If you are not being physically restrained then what is forcing you from simply walking away from people who evangelize?
> That's just common sense to me but maybe it's a revelation to you.
> 
> The only people I hear who have a whole lot of resentment are Indian members on this forum. I have not met anyone else who makes up history on the basis of their resentment.
> No one is asking you to shut up...
> Man I feel like I am having an argument with a 10 year old kid.
> 
> let me lay this out like a KG teacher would.
> 
> 1. In public you don't have the right to privacy
> that means that people HAVE the right to spread their message in public.
> So Pepsi is allowed to tell you about their product and so can any religion.
> 2. If you don't want to listen to the message then that is your right.
> Pepsi will not force you to buy a Pepsi and neither will a religion force you to listen to their message.
> 3. If you are annoyed with people spreading their message then that is YOUR problem, deal with it how you want but you have no right to tell them to stop.
> 4. All religions have a right to spread their message. If Hinduism doesn't use this right then it is Hinduism's fault not other religions. So don't be bitter that others use this right
> 5. And finally, how does it affect you? Kindly tell me. Are they forcing you to listen? are they forcing you to come to their temple?
> 
> Again, you just sound like an angry kid that didn't get his way. I am sorry to tell you but in the grown up world you have some rights and others have some rights. The world will not bend to your feelings.



Pepsi does not, cannot go around, claiming to be the final Cola and that all other Colas are lesser Colas.

Not when Coke is still around.

They would have push back. Big time.

So is Islam.

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## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> I was kind of joking when I said you didn't get an education, but now I am starting to believe it is actually true.
> Please point out where I ever claimed to speak on behalf of Humanity?You can't do it, because I never did it.
> And sorry, but I don't understand that underlined giberish. English please






Rusty said:


> What the heck is "freedom of privacy" ?
> do you mean the right to privacy?
> I feel like I am teaching an elementary class when I say this....
> You don't have the right to privacy in a public area.
> 
> *And does your "ancient" faith also allow you to speak on behalf of all humanity?*
> 
> The best you can say is that YOU don't like to be preached to. Which is fine, you have that right. But you don't have the right to speak on behalf of Humanity.
> 
> I think you are just bitter that millions of people have left your "ancient" religion for Islam and now you are just grasping at straws to justify your hate.
> 
> It's okay, when I was a kid I loved Nintendo and hated PlayStation and I used to make up all kinds of excuses to hate it even though PlayStation had almost no affect on my life.
> 
> Religions have the right to preach their messages, If Hindus don't use that right then that is a fault in Hinduism not a fault in other religions that do use that right.




Short-term memory loss??

Dude, please go out & have some fresh air, it may help your grey cells to retrieve thinking & memorizing powers.
Right now you are not FIT for meaningful discussions & debates. Excuse me for a day.

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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> You do not need to understand.
> 
> You cannot understand.
> 
> There are insurmountable challenges.



If he cannot understand then that is the fault of your Religion, not his. Maybe you should change it so he can understand



kumarkumar1867 said:


> Short-term memory loss??
> 
> Dude, please go out & have some fresh air, it may help your grey cells to retrieve thinking & memorizing powers.
> Right now you are not FIT for meaningful discussions & debates. Excuse me for a day.



So by asking if he is speaking on behalf of Humanity means that I am speaking on Humanity?!?!?!

Amazing Hindu Logic 

I understand now why my ancestors decided to not use it in favor of better logic.


----------



## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> What more is there to understand?
> 
> You are blatantly Islamophobic.
> 
> Do you realize why most of the Indian Muslim members have stopped participating on the forum?
> 
> Well I would take a guess that it's because of the things they have to hear about their religion from fellow "countrymen".
> 
> Why don't you go and tell one of your countrymen that his religion is "repackaged"?
> 
> We obviously don't care, and you're not going to change anyone's religion amongst Pakistanis.



The repackaged was in response to your crass Windows analogy.

Do not be crass with someone else's faith and expect to come out with your own smelling of roses.

There will be push back. 

Whether you are Indian or Pakistani or Omani.

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## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> The repackaged was in response to your crass Windows analogy.
> 
> Do not be crass with someone else's faith and expect to come out with your own smelling of roses.
> 
> There will be push back.
> 
> Whether you are Indian or Pakistani or Omani.



There are 2.1+ billion Muslims worldwide. Does that bother you?

It seems like it does.

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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> Pepsi does not, cannot go around, claiming to be the final Cola and that all other Colas are lesser Colas.
> 
> Not when Coke is still around.
> 
> They would have push back. Big time.
> 
> So is Islam.



That's all you took from all I said?


I am done here, clearly you do not have full faculties of your mind and I apologize for trying to reason with you.


----------



## ALOK31

RazPaK said:


> There are 2.1+ billion Muslims worldwide. Does that bother you?
> 
> It seems like it does.


mostly muslims are illiterate and backward and they fight each other .


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> If he cannot understand then that is the fault of your Religion, not his. Maybe you should change it so he can understand



The discussions and multiple threads he refers to were between Parsis and largely Iranian Persians. On Zoroastrianism and Islam.

Zoroastrianism has no need nor inclination to explain itself to those not of the ancient bloodlines.

Not all faiths operate in the manner you are accustomed to.

Not when they have seen it all, done it all.

This is not to put down your faith as the junior in the class.

It is just to point out that not everyone accepts the tenets and truth that you cal final.

And they do not need to or want to hear your version.

So please keep it to those who are genuinely interested, and preach in a solicited and balanced manner.


----------



## Arya Desa

ALOK31 said:


> mostly muslims are illiterate and backward and they fight each other .



When you make a documentary they start killing each other.


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## Rusty

^^^^
don't quote him, I already reported the loser.


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## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> My big question is, who is forcing you to?
> Are you in some kind of cult jail where you are being forced to listen to evangelical stuff?
> If you are not being physically restrained then what is forcing you from simply walking away from people who evangelize?
> That's just common sense to me but maybe it's a revelation to you.
> 
> The only people I hear who have a whole lot of resentment are Indian members on this forum. I have not met anyone else who makes up history on the basis of their resentment.
> No one is asking you to shut up...
> Man I feel like I am having an argument with a 10 year old kid.
> 
> let me lay this out like a KG teacher would.
> 
> 1. In public you don't have the right to privacy
> that means that people HAVE the right to spread their message in public.
> So Pepsi is allowed to tell you about their product and so can any religion.
> 2. If you don't want to listen to the message then that is your right.
> Pepsi will not force you to buy a Pepsi and neither will a religion force you to listen to their message.
> 3. If you are annoyed with people spreading their message then that is YOUR problem, deal with it how you want but you have no right to tell them to stop.
> 4. All religions have a right to spread their message. If Hinduism doesn't use this right then it is Hinduism's fault not other religions. So don't be bitter that others use this right
> 5. And finally, how does it affect you? Kindly tell me. Are they forcing you to listen? are they forcing you to come to their temple?
> 
> Again, you just sound like an angry kid that didn't get his way. I am sorry to tell you but in the grown up world you have some rights and others have some rights. The world will not bend to your feelings.



So now your religion has become a PEPSI & you and your mullah brigades the sales managers of the PEPSI?? 
As a Indian I feel YUCCKKHHH on your thinking that treats religion as product & head counts following it as a proof of quality the product has.

With such low life example of branding Islam, you think you are a GOOD MOMIN?? Thanks God, you and muslims like you are on other side of border.

For us Religion is sacred as Nationality or Motherland, its our identity we dont share it everyone that meets with us on streets, we are proud of it but dont advertize its greatness to make people believe or embrace it.




Rusty said:


> *So by asking if he is speaking on behalf of Humanity means that I am speaking on Humanity?!?!?!*
> 
> Amazing Hindu Logic
> 
> I understand now why my ancestors decided to not use it in favor of better logic.



I am sorry PDF doesnt have any option to Report someone as BRAIN DEAD, otherwise you would have honour to be first among that category.


----------



## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> There are 2.1+ billion Muslims worldwide. Does that bother you?
> 
> It seems like it does.



There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

And it does not bother me.

Not when there is an alliance of 2.4 billion Christians and 1.2 billion Hindus and 25 million Jews that we are a part of.

Sugar in milk my friend. Sugar in milk.

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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> The discussions and multiple threads he refers to were between Parsis and largely Iranian Persians. On Zoroastrianism and Islam.
> 
> Zoroastrianism has no need nor inclination to explain itself to those not of the ancient bloodlines.
> 
> Not all faiths operate in the manner you are accustomed to.
> 
> Not when they have seen it all, done it all.
> 
> This is not to put down your faith as the junior in the class.
> 
> It is just to point out that not everyone accepts the tenets and truth that you cal final.
> 
> And they do not need to or want to hear your version.
> 
> So please keep it to those who are genuinely interested, and preach in a solicited and balanced manner.



please spare me the patronizing. 
Instead, try and use your "ancient knowledge" and make a proper reply to me previous post.


----------



## livingdead

Some of the culture is shared, so Indians cannot claim it to be their own. Nor can pakistanis.
But the OP was specifically pointing to bollywood promoted culture, not IVC, so lets stick to the topic.


----------



## Zarvan

kumarkumar1867 said:


> So now your religion has become a PEPSI & you and your mullah brigades the sales managers of the PEPSI??
> As a Indian I feel YUCCKKHHH on your thinking that treats religion as product & head counts following it as a proof of quality the product has.
> 
> With such low life example of branding Islam, you think you are a GOOD MOMIN?? Thanks God, you and muslims like you are on other side of border.
> 
> For us Religion is sacred as Nationality or Motherland, its our identity we dont share it everyone that meets with us on streets, we are proud of it but dont advertize its greatness to make people believe or embrace it.


Sir first read Islam before talking about it Sir Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because of converts and eating with kafirs as long as food is halal is allowed Sir you Indians are imitating culture of west and also the old culture which you have is mostly those things which are left by Muslims who ruled you so first know what the hell is Indian Culture


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> please spare me the patronizing.
> Instead, try and use your "ancient knowledge" and make a proper reply to me previous post.



I am not patronizing you.

Somewhere in your DNA, is that ancient knowledge as well.


----------



## WAR-rior

RazPaK said:


> What are these fundamentals?
> 
> At one point Hindus are vegetarian, at other points they love beef and pork.
> 
> At another point they are conservative, and another point they literally think they have created pornography.
> 
> At one point they are monotheists, and another they are polytheists.
> 
> This wishy washiness seems absurd and opportunistic to say the least.



Because you guyz need to be taught what life is. Its not Black and white. Its a grey area. No one can claim to understand life. You can come closer but not complete.

Again you have to understand every timeline has its own culture and life style. Hindus have gone thru this complete timeline unlike any other religion. We have brahmins, vaishnavs and shaivyas depending on the decendents from either of the 3 major gods. Brahmins are strict veggies, vaishnavs are limited veggies and shaivyas are rigorous non veggies. The lower caste of today, shudras, NTs are the shaivyas. There was time when they ruled da land, today brahmins do. In the future some other. You never know. But with changing times the cultures and style also change. Now this is called Evolution Theory, WHICH I THINK MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN.


----------



## Rusty

kumarkumar1867 said:


> So now your religion has become a PEPSI & you and your mullah brigades the sales managers of the PEPSI??
> As a Indian I feel YUCCKKHHH on your thinking that treats religion as product & head counts following it as a proof of quality the product has.
> 
> With such low life example of branding Islam, you think you are a GOOD MOMIN?? Thanks God, you and muslims like you are on other side of border.
> 
> For us Religion is sacred as Nationality or Motherland, its our identity we dont share it everyone that meets with us on streets, we are proud of it but dont advertize its greatness to make people believe or embrace it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry PDF doesnt have any option to Report someone as BRAIN DEAD, otherwise you would have honour to be first among that category.



C'mon man, even I refuse to believe that you are this dumb. Stop embarrassing yourself and address the actual points. 
I do kind of understand why you are playing dumb, I mean if I had to defend such an "ancient religion" as Hinduism, with all the....."interesting" aspects, I too would play dumb.


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty we guys need to take a deep breath and type our future posts.

Otherwise there will be mass bans. More saffron than green.

Kindly cooperate.

RazPak is in his Mr. Hyde mode today. Cannot reason there.


----------



## Rusty

WAR-rior said:


> Because you guyz need to be taught what life is. Its not Black and white. Its a grey area. No one can claim to understand life. You can come closer but not complete.
> 
> Again you have to understand every timeline has its own culture and life style. Hindus have gone thru this complete timeline unlike any other religion. We have brahmins, vaishnavs and shaivyas depending on the decendents from either of the 3 major gods. Brahmins are strict veggies, vaishnavs are limited veggies and shaivyas are rigorous non veggies. The lower caste of today, shudras, NTs are the shaivyas. There was time when they ruled da land, today brahmins do. In the future some other. You never know. But with changing times the cultures and style also change. Now this is called Evolution Theory, WHICH I THINK MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN.



WHAT?
I am sorry but that made no sense to me.
So you have 1 God, but also 3. You are supposed to be vegetarian yet you can eat meat. THere was a time when the untouchables ruled the land? Can you give me any point in anyone's history when gutter cleaners, butchers and undertakers used to rule the land and the scholars and professionals were ruled?

And I you clearly don't understand what evolution is, because what you described is certainly not Evolution. Don't make up crap, tie it in with modern science and expect people to not question you. 

And don't make declarations on other religion that you clearly don't know the answer to. 
I can say a lot of crap about what Hindus supposedly believe, but my religion forbids me to lie about others. Guess we don't share those morals.


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty are you there?

Deep breath taken?

I have something/s to say.


----------



## Zarvan

WAR-rior said:


> Because you guyz need to be taught what life is. Its not Black and white. Its a grey area. No one can claim to understand life. You can come closer but not complete.
> 
> Again you have to understand every timeline has its own culture and life style. Hindus have gone thru this complete timeline unlike any other religion. We have brahmins, vaishnavs and shaivyas depending on the decendents from either of the 3 major gods. Brahmins are strict veggies, vaishnavs are limited veggies and shaivyas are rigorous non veggies. The lower caste of today, shudras, NTs are the shaivyas. There was time when they ruled da land, today brahmins do. In the future some other. You never know. But with changing times the cultures and style also change. Now this is called Evolution Theory, WHICH I THINK MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN.


Yes because Evolution is just a theory and not a fact but Indians need to decide what their culture is as for Pakistan Islam shapes the culture Muslims have to follow Islam and those things allowed in Islam could be practices but those things which are not allowed will be banned because Islam is a complete way of life


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## vsdoc

Rusty bhai ???


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## Rusty

vsdoc said:


> Rusty we guys need to take a deep breath and type our future posts.
> 
> Otherwise there will be mass bans. More saffron than green.
> 
> Kindly cooperate.
> 
> RazPak is in his Mr. Hyde mode today. Cannot reason there.




Do you know why I don't get banned or even get infractions?
Because I carefully chose my words and reason my logic.

I don't trash talk Hindus, I don't start Hindu Bashing threads or even posts. 
I only reply in kind to Indian posts that trash Islam or Muslims. 

Now if you feel that it's unfair that you guys get banned after trash taking Islam then that is too bad. 
But really, what do you expect when you insult the owner of the home you are in.

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## kumarkumar1867

Zarvan said:


> Sir first read Islam before talking about it Sir Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because of converts and eating with kafirs as long as food is halal is allowed Sir you Indians are imitating culture of west and also the old culture which you have is mostly those things which are left by Muslims who ruled you so first know what the hell is Indian Culture



Yes I have read a lot about islam & i am eager to learn-read more about it, I can do it sitting in India. Wish I could wish or ask you to learn more about real Hinduism, which you can never do, hence no possibility of you understanding how both islam & hinduism can be path to TRUTH.

And please Stop worrying about Indian culture, western effect , reducing numbers of hindus or non-muslims on this planet, etc etc. With conditions your country is in today, If you help your country & culture its more anything best that can be done by your this incarnination.



Rusty said:


> C'mon man, even I refuse to believe that you are this dumb. Stop embarrassing yourself and address the actual points.
> I do kind of understand why you are playing dumb, I mean if I had to defend such an "ancient religion" as Hinduism, with all the....."interesting" aspects, I too would play dumb.



Its funny to see some like you calling some dumb. Anyways, I wont reply to you further you just dont deserve replies.

PS:- I like Your Signature, Mr.Joe Shearer is perfectly right to quote you, what you deserve.


----------



## vsdoc

Rusty said:


> Do you know why I don't get banned or even get infractions?
> Because I carefully chose my words and reason my logic.
> 
> I don't trash talk Hindus, I don't start Hindu Bashing threads or even posts.
> I only reply in kind to Indian posts that trash Islam or Muslims.
> 
> Now if you feel that it's unfair that you guys get banned after trash taking Islam then that is too bad.
> But really, what do you expect when you insult the owner of the home you are in.



I appreciate that. Could also be because you are a Pakistani and there are far more overtly obnoxious Pakistanis in line before you front and center in the eyes of the mods, but if you have never ben banned or infracted, you must be doing something right.

Tell me Rusty, continuing from your Pepsi post on freedom in public places, which Islam should enjoy by right as per you

Does Islam allow the same rights to other faiths in the lands where they are in a majority or even close to majority?

Please tell me Rusty.


----------



## vsdoc

No reply from Rusty?

I hope its because you are typing. A lot.

RazPak bhai please join in also. No hard feelings.

Are you sure Ejaz and others are not posting because of me?

I feel really bad for Indian Muslims and this, if true, is a prime example.

You guys piss us off.

We resist for as long as we can because we know we have as many of them as you in our own country.

But we are human. And when we bite back, its unfortunately taken to heart as something that either attacks their faith or their loyalty.

This cycle has been repeating itself for 65 years.


----------



## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> Rusty we guys need to take a deep breath and type our future posts.
> 
> Otherwise there will be mass bans. More saffron than green.
> 
> Kindly cooperate.
> 
> RazPak is in his Mr. Hyde mode today. Cannot reason there.



What Hyde mode?

I respond to trollers with troll, and to semi trollers with semi troll.

Stark generalizations are being made against Muslims or Islam. 

I've noticed a few more trollers, since I came back to this thread.

Your coalition of Jews, and Christians cannot save you from the basic principles of humanity.

We Muslims are here to stay. If you have a problem vent it out. Cry, scream, or eat a bucket of ice cream. It makes no difference. 

We don't consider Parsi or Hindu religion as true, but that does not mean we don't consider them to be human beings.


Our culture is indeed different, from our beliefs, languages, customs, and our mentality.


----------



## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> *We don't consider Parsi or Hindu religion as true*, but that does not mean we don't consider them to be human beings.



Thank you. Much obliged.

I (not we) do not consider Islam to be a true faith either.

But that does not stop me from having Muslims as my best friends.

I interact with people one on one. Their faith, true or not, is none of my business.


----------



## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> Thank you. Much obliged.
> 
> I (not we) do not consider Islam to be a true faith either.
> 
> But that does not stop me from having Muslims as my best friends.



You already wrote how you felt. Your best friends may one day read it.


----------



## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> You already wrote how you felt. Your best friends may one day read it.



As did you. Its good to be honest.

My friend, what I write, is a very small percentage of what I discuss one on one with them.

Many are coming around.

Some do not agree.

But we talk and do not kill.

And besides our faiths, there is nothing that comes between us.

By the way, my ID vsdoc is not a pseudonym I use for PDF alone.

RazPak bhai, tumhare pardadaon se joojhte hue aaye hai hum.

Darr hamare ragon mein nahin daudta hai.


----------



## Srinivas

vsdoc said:


> Said in half jest really.
> 
> On a ride once, as usual in the twisties, my best friend and I got super competitive, with some serious gunning on each other's arses, blocking, etc.
> 
> Finally I took advantage of a small break betwen a bus and a car and built a good lead of a couple of corners as the gap closed down and he could not close in after that.
> 
> Once I reached the spot we were heading for I quickly pulled to the side, and ripped off my helmet to give the impression I had been waiting for some time
> 
> Our man comes gunning around the corner, sees me grinning, my bike parked on side stand, and tries to nonchalantly act cool and come to a skidding halt just behind my bike.
> 
> He miscalculates his approach speed, the distance, and the fact that his front disc locked on bajri, and instead of lightly pecking my bike, he smooches its backside.
> 
> Bottom line - my bike jolts forward before my (and his) horrified eyes, and falls off the side stand.
> 
> I cannot believe what I have just seen. I cannot even abuse or get violent.
> 
> So I pick up my bike, put on my helmet, and race away.
> 
> We did not talk for two months ......



funny incident


----------



## Srinivas

pakfoj said:


> i think most of the culture comes from the Mughals, who were muslims. so technically there is no indian culture (apart from religion off course) the true "indian" culture comes from Mughal muslims(customs, religious, clothing, food, architecture, and even language, etc) which can now be seen mostly in Pakistan and india for that matter.



Moguls are Chagatai tribes from Afganistan they embraced Persian culture and south asian culture get your history right


----------



## WAR-rior

Rusty said:


> WHAT?
> I am sorry but that made no sense to me.


Expected. 



> So you have 1 God, but also 3.


We have 36000 gods. BEtter understand Hinduism before seeing it with islamic eyes.


> You are *supposed *to be vegetarian yet you can eat meat.


Supposed? Who said so ? Brahmins ? They rule so the decide.  I am not a brahmin. so it really doesnt matters to me. Some reason why Indians eat both veg and nonveg. Coz indians consist of all brahmins, vaishyas, shudras, muslims, sikhs, etc etc

Even historically, brahmins were the influencers but not the decision makers. Decision makers were the kshatriyas who tthemselves were hardcore non veggies. Again I ask you to do basic research then come and debate.



> THere was a time when the untouchables ruled the land? Can you give me any point in anyone's history when gutter cleaners, butchers and undertakers used to rule the land and the scholars and professionals were ruled?



I said shaivyas ruled. Shaivyas are those who worship SHIVA, vaishnavs are those who worship Vishnu and Brahmins those who worshipped Brahma.

Even your IVC civilization were shaivyas. U being a pakistani shud know bout ur history. Who was worshipped in sindhu valley before buddhism ? Thats why those ppl dint mind eating Beef. 



> And I you clearly don't understand what evolution is, because what you described is certainly not Evolution. Don't make up crap, tie it in with modern science and expect people to not question you.


Evolution is simply defined as 'a phenomenon which takes its course as per the surrounding which is completely natural to happen'. Now associate this with my earlier sentences. 


> And don't make declarations on other religion that you clearly don't know the answer to.
> I can say a lot of crap about what Hindus supposedly believe, but my religion forbids me to lie about others. Guess we don't share those morals.



What you said bout your religion and what it forbids totally is oblivious to the current reality. Otherwise muslims wudnt had been the *** whipping ducks for the entire world. If what u said was so true, muslims wud had been the most peaceful religion in da world. Some reason its not.


----------



## Srinivas

WAR-rior said:


> Expected.
> 
> 
> We have 36000 gods. BEtter understand Hinduism before seeing it with islamic eyes.
> 
> Supposed? Who said so ? Brahmins ? They rule so the decide.  I am not a brahmin. so it really doesnt matters to me. Some reason why Indians eat both veg and nonveg. Coz indians consist of all brahmins, vaishyas, shudras, muslims, sikhs, etc etc
> 
> Even historically, brahmins were the influencers but not the decision makers. Decision makers were the kshatriyas who tthemselves were hardcore non veggies. Again I ask you to do basic research then come and debate.
> 
> 
> 
> I said shaivyas ruled. Shaivyas are those who worship SHIVA, vaishnavs are those who worship Vishnu and Brahmins those who worshipped Brahma.
> 
> Even your IVC civilization were shaivyas. U being a pakistani shud know bout ur history. Who was worshipped in sindhu valley before buddhism ? Thats why those ppl dint mind eating Beef.
> 
> 
> Evolution is simply defined as 'a phenomenon which takes its course as per the surrounding which is completely natural to happen'. Now associate this with my earlier sentences.
> 
> 
> What you said bout your religion and what it forbids totally is oblivious to the current reality. Otherwise muslims wudnt had been the *** whipping ducks for the entire world. If what u said was so true, muslims wud had been the most peaceful religion in da world. Some reason its not.



These guys think they were decedents of foreign invader army and so the obsession continues.......


----------



## Srinivas

BRICS said:


> While on the subject of Indian culture (whatever that means), can someone please explain when, why and how Bharat pita (father) became Bharat mata (mother)?
> 
> How did he become her? Doesn't make any sense! Bharat is a guy's name, Bharat was a king who supposedly ruled the Indian sub continent once upon a time. When and why did the switch happen?



Bharatiyya means decedents of Bharat king. Where as Bharat Mata means name of country where decendents of Bharat lives. Hindus call their rivers and places with female names.


----------



## Srinivas

Ahmadinejad's Great Jihad said:


> Yes, Pakistan has ancient history, maybe Pakistan and India share some roots, but now we are two different things. Anyway, India became independent from Britain in 1947 anyway. How much of Indian culture is British?



Yes british are the ones who brought Gita,Vedas and other religious texts we follow and we also celebrate their national days as ours.


----------



## Dubious

OMG! Where did you guys study? Which classes did you stop in? SERIOUSLY you people can not even differentiate culture and religion???!

I can understand Hindus because their culture is embedded with their religion so they can't find the line between the 2...BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU LOT WHO say you are not HINDUS? 

Furthermore, just because you lost the line between culture and religion, DOESN'T mean that it is the case for EVERYONE!

ANYONE can be a MUSLIM and anyother race!

We have Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, Thai Muslims, Malaysian Muslims, American Muslims, Jamaican Muslims, European Muslims, Arab Muslims just like any other religion!

Now before any person says ARAB CULTURE ARAB MUSLIM OR ISLAM is ARAB's! PLEASE just leave that mouth shut! It is pure ignorance to a degree undescribable! AND STARTING TO GET ANNOYING!!

Arab culture? Well, when Islam spread from Arab lands, their religion became their culture like your Hindus in India! So, when we have an Islamic culture it is not ARAB culture it is Islam's culture! Like if an American adapts Hinduism or Buddhism he doesnt become INDIAN he adapts HINDU culture not INDIAN culture!

Please get that line right!

Next, What exactly is INDIAN culture? If you are talking about Hindu culture of pooja, singing and dancing in front of the gods (I took this example as it is in your movies and dramas)...ALL THAT is Hindu CULTURE not INDIAN! Because Indians are also Christians and Buddhists and Muslims! 

AND MIND YOU...Recently on other threads, people have discussed about how other cultures seem similar....So, IT MAY be that similarity that smears your judgement? 

I am actually get sick of this IVC being dragged along in everyother thread! Is there no other examples you can give?

I am also sick of Indians ACCUSING Pakistanis of adapting ISLAMIC CULTURE or as they put it Arab culture! Islam ruled India for 800 years! 800 ODD YEARS and you do not adapt anything! TALK ABOUT RIGIDITY and then Indians say they are flexible? Seriously? 

All, I am saying is GROW UP!

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## kumarkumar1867

Talon said:


> OMG! Where did you guys study? Which classes did you stop in? SERIOUSLY you people can not even differentiate culture and religion???!
> 
> I can understand Hindus because their culture is embedded with their religion so they can't find the line between the 2...BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU LOT WHO say you are not HINDUS?
> 
> Furthermore, just because you lost the line between culture and religion, DOESN'T mean that it is the case for EVERYONE!
> 
> ANYONE can be a MUSLIM and anyother race!
> 
> We have Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, Thai Muslims, Malaysian Muslims, American Muslims, Jamaican Muslims, European Muslims, Arab Muslims just like any other religion!
> 
> Now before any person says ARAB CULTURE ARAB MUSLIM OR ISLAM is ARAB's! PLEASE just leave that mouth shut! It is pure ignorance to a degree undescribable! AND STARTING TO GET ANNOYING!!
> 
> Arab culture? Well, when Islam spread from Arab lands, their religion became their culture like your Hindus in India! So, when we have an Islamic culture it is not ARAB culture it is Islam's culture! Like if an American adapts Hinduism or Buddhism he doesnt become INDIAN he adapts HINDU culture not INDIAN culture!
> 
> Please get that line right!
> 
> Next, What exactly is INDIAN culture? If you are talking about Hindu culture of pooja, singing and dancing in front of the gods (I took this example as it is in your movies and dramas)...ALL THAT is Hindu CULTURE not INDIAN! Because Indians are also Christians and Buddhists and Muslims!
> 
> AND MIND YOU...Recently on other threads, people have discussed about how other cultures seem similar....So, IT MAY be that similarity that smears your judgement?
> 
> I am actually get sick of this IVC being dragged along in everyother thread! Is there no other examples you can give?
> 
> *I am also sick of Indians ACCUSING Pakistanis of adapting ISLAMIC CULTURE or as they put it Arab culture! Islam ruled India for 800 years! 800 ODD YEARS and you do not adapt anything! TALK ABOUT RIGIDITY and then Indians say they are flexible? Seriously? *
> All, I am saying is GROW UP!



Lol...Read from the start !! 
Same things/posts are repeated on PDF for 1000s times .
Dont be serious about it. Its just another day on PDF. 

And agree 100% with your post, except the bold part. Pakistani culture resembles to or can be said is derative of Indian culture but some Pakistani members think that they are from mars, everything good part their culture has is their own while crap parts is from indian culture.

India is not a Hindu country, it is place where multireligious multirace peoples & cultures dwells. We never deny islamic influence on our culture, our culture is much influenced by islam as well as christianity but the it never lost its hindu essence. While on other hand,Our indian culture too influenced islamic stuff which is widely followed or is popular in present day pakistan . For example Urdu Shayari, qawaallis flourished in india just because indian influence on it which is now popular in Pakistan.


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## nForce

How much of Pakistani culture is Indian? 

1.The most obvious one will be language.Urdu,the most spoken language in Pakistan,originated from Khariboli of Delhi region.
2.The Indian media has got into the Pakistani households these days,the daily soaps as well as the movies.And tele-media is a powerful and perhaps the most effective channel affecting culture.We all got 'westernized' upto a certain degree mainly due to Western media.
3.Classical music and dance in Pakistan have got heavy Indian influence(Not talking about Junoon-type sufi-rock here).


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## Srinivas

Zarvan said:


> Indian needs to check their culture first their Bollywood movies are not just copy of western movies in all aspects so and their youth follows bollywood a lot and also the old culture which many times they show as their own are of those invaders who kicked their *** for hundreds of years so Indians need to check their culture first before telling us



Every Islamic Invasion which came from outside south asia came through punjab and sindh and they came here after kicking the ***** of the people there


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## vsdoc

Talon should go back to Naswar thread. This thread is for holy wars only.

The mind boggles at the amount of calisthenics (semantic, linguistic, racial, historical, cultural) Pakistanis have been saddled with as price for getting a country of their own.

Not complaining.

Its a price both sides would readily pay in the current cicumstances.

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## Ticker

Myth_buster_1 said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.



A classic example of some one who does not understand his own culture. 

There are similarities between some aspects of Pakistani culture with American, British, Arab, Turkish, Iranian and you name it. All these countries may have similarities with Indian culture as well. 

Naming some names and calling them kings in Pakistan - who are these guys. I have only heard some of these names for the first time here on this forum. Where do you come from tin horn. You are talking through your A$$ and spreading stink - nothing more. 

Pakistani culture is Pakistani and is not how much of it is Indian. 

WHAT CRAP. 

People have written books on culture of Pakistan - one such marvelous book has been written by Mr. Khan Ahmed Shuja Pasha, one of the great writers this country has produced. 

Tum kon hai yaar. Angrezi bolnay aur likhnay ka ye matlab nahin ke apnay upar hi thukna shuru kar do. 

Agar yehi kuch karna hai to is thuk ko chatna bhi seekho.

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## vsdoc

Ticker, tin horn maane?

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## Ticker

nForce said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> 1.The most obvious one will be language.Urdu,the most spoken language in Pakistan,originated from Khariboli of Delhi region.
> 2.The Indian media has got into the Pakistani households these days,the daily soaps as well as the movies.And tele-media is a powerful and perhaps the most effective channel affecting culture.We all got 'westernized' upto a certain degree mainly due to Western media.
> 3.Classical music and dance in Pakistan have got heavy Indian influence(Not talking about Junoon-type sufi-rock here).



You are again at it. 

Urdu did not originate from Khariboli. Khariboli is only a part of it. This is a Lashkari language and emanated from the Muslim Lashkars that invading India. Because the Muslims belonged to different hues and could not understand each other well, a common language emanated and was used by soldiers of these Muslim Lashkars. At a later stage certain aspects of Khariboli became part of it. 

Please don't spread false historical perspectives.



vsdoc said:


> Ticker, tin horn maane?



Tin horn mane tin horn.

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## Bang Galore

RazPaK said:


> What more is there to understand?
> 
> Do you realize why most of the Indian Muslim members have stopped participating on the forum?
> 
> *Well I would take a guess that it's because of the things they have to hear about their religion from fellow "countrymen"*.




I never thought I would be in agreement with you on anything but I do have to say that you might very well be right on this one.




> Why don't you go and tell one of your countrymen that his religion is "repackaged"?
> 
> *We obviously don't care, and you're not going to change anyone's religion amongst Pakistanis.*



Good point. The only ones we hurt are those we claim as our own.

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## nForce

Ticker said:


> You are again at it.
> 
> Urdu did not originate from Khariboli. Khariboli is only a part of it. This is a Lashkari language and emanated from the Muslim Lashkars that invading India. Because the Muslims belonged to different hues and could not understand each other well, a common language emanated and was used by soldiers of these Muslim Lashkars. At a later stage certain aspects of Khariboli became part of it.
> 
> Please don't spread false historical perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> Tin horn mane tin horn.



Again making the same mistakes.Probably you are not aware about what is going on in your country these days.A lot of clean-up of history is going on,rectifying the mistakes and half-truths and downright false-hoods that used to be taught there.Good to see the increase in awareness.So far as the origin of the language is concerned,here what the Pakistani newpaper DAWN has to say about it : Urdu&#8217;s origin: it&#8217;s not a &#8216;camp language&#8217;


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## kumarkumar1867

vsdoc said:


> Ticker, tin horn maane?



Tin Horn maane unskilled or beaukaat waala khiladi who is known for stupidity .Like we say gangu teli or sheikhchilli in our indian folk tales.something like Mr.Bean.

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## vsdoc

So who gave Ticker the accreditation portfolio for that?

Is he the king of tin horns? 

Is he the big horn?


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## Srinivas

Ticker said:


> You are again at it.
> 
> Urdu did not originate from Khariboli. Khariboli is only a part of it. This is a Lashkari language and emanated from the Muslim Lashkars that invading India. Because the Muslims belonged to different hues and could not understand each other well, a common language emanated and was used by soldiers of these Muslim Lashkars. At a later stage certain aspects of Khariboli became part of it.
> 
> Please don't spread false historical perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> Tin horn mane tin horn.



Khariboli originated from western Hindi dialect , Don't distort the facts.


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## Manticore

I want to point out one thing .. islam at its start ''the golden age of islam'' was ahead in science , literature etc --- this time period coincided e the dark ages in europe ----- the west then learnt arabic and translated all the major arabic books into their respective languages ------- this leads to some conclusions 
1] islam encouraged science 
2] today when the tides have turned, muslims dont want to learn english let alone science--they are just too proud or blind --- they have not read the Quran even once ---HOW CAN THESE SO CALLED MUSLIMS BE TAKEN AS A GOLD STANDARD OF A RELIGION THEY HAVE NO CLUE OF? how can illiteracy/personal preference of a population be reflctive of a religion? how can the authencity of a religion be tested in a country like for e.g pak --which has corrupt leaders and no islamic laws? you would be baffled to know that there are more ''islamic'' laws implemented in usa rather than in the so called 'islamic' state of pak 
3] having an islamic state is quite different than having a mullah state--- recently these 2 things unfortunately mean the same
4] one thing is to learn english --> translate books into native languages --> translate great islamic books in various native languages into english ... its a pity that so many good islamic books are written in native languages


If this is a war , muslims have brought a wooden sword to fight a tank , the moment they've opted for native languages for propogation of islam aswell as protest against the cartoons etc

the religiously illiterate people who havent read the quran are discussing islam ---- its really amusing ... however this is not the topic at hand


5] muslims should learn to choose battles wisely
6] muslims cant practically cut off the west as they are dependent in all fields ranging from debt to defence ---- there are no signs that this will change in the next century ---- the west will make it even more difficult for muslim states to get on their feet as compared to the obstacles they placed in front of china

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## Ticker

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Khariboli originated from western Hindi dialect , Don't distort the facts.



I am talking about urdu, funny man.


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## Ticker

nForce said:


> Again making the same mistakes.Probably you are not aware about what is going on in your country these days.A lot of clean-up of history is going on,rectifying the mistakes and half-truths and downright false-hoods that used to be taught there.Good to see the increase in awareness.So far as the origin of the language is concerned,here what the Pakistani newpaper DAWN has to say about it : Urdu&#8217;s origin: it&#8217;s not a &#8216;camp language&#8217;



I have read this muck. This guy is quoting foreigners as compared to the people who lived here and saw Urdu emerging. People like this are also in India who would believe a foreigner rather than the historical precepts outlined by their own people from centuries of ground realities. 

What you have quoted is BS.



vsdoc said:


> So who gave Ticker the accreditation portfolio for that?
> 
> Is he the king of tin horns?
> 
> Is he the big horn?



Nope. It is simple common sense which at times is uncommon with tin horns like the one I addressed.


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## Srinivas

Ticker said:


> I am talking about urdu, funny man.



Urdu is a fusion of Kharaboli and Persian


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> I am talking about urdu, funny man.



Dialects of Hindi divided into 5 groups: Eastern Hindi, Western Hindi, Pahari, Rajasthani and Bihari. Khariboli belongs to Western Hindi.


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## nForce

Ticker said:


> I have read this muck. This guy is quoting foreigners as compared to the people who lived here and saw Urdu emerging. People like this are also in India who would believe a foreigner rather than the historical precepts outlined by their own people from centuries of ground realities.
> 
> What you have quoted is BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. It is simple common sense which at times is uncommon with tin horns like the one I addressed.



While it will be wrong to assume something to be correct just because a foreigner has said so,it will be sheer stupidity and dogmatic to reject something for the very same reason,considering the fact that both the idea are coming from the same person.Thats BS reasoning.


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## Srinivas

Ticker said:


> I am talking about urdu, funny man.



Urdu is a fusion of Kharaboli and Persian


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## Dubious

People first you need to define CULTURE


THEN learn how it forms!

Pakistan took independence and took pieces of different backgrounds, sew it together and formed a culture! Culture can form anywhere and from anything...Just because a piece looks similar does not mean the whole thing is the same?

Pakistan has Hindus, Buddhist, Muslims and Christians...SO, if their culture has pieces from INDIA...IT DOESN'T mean we stole it from you! The people who practiced these religions brought it with them and these deviated when living with various neighbors!

THAT is how cultures are formed...IF Indians think we took their culture...THEN it is fair enough to say Indians and the whole world took African culture (as 1st man came from Africa) or Mesopotamian culture (cradle of civilization)...The people of UR and The displaced people of Abraham also worshiped cows! But I do not go around saying Indians stole THEIR culture!

Then according to your theories Americans do not have ANY culture because they all are Europeans...Did they steal a culture too? Same goes for Ozzies! You tell that to any of the 2...they will slap you back to Vedic times! 

Cultures evolve...When there is enough differences...it is called a new culture!

And same goes to language...If there are significant differences arising in Languages...IT IS A NEW LANGUAGE! No one except those studying it cares where the root is! In fact why do you care? Do you want to write a thesis about it? *If not* then stop bringing in materials to find differences and start a hate war!

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## imperialmen

How can somebody 'steal' a culture?!

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## Dubious

imperialmen said:


> How can somebody 'steal' a culture?!



You tell me...I find Indians shoving it up our noses that we are being ARABS because we are following Islam! Or we have ADAPTED ARABIC CULTURE! 

Because Islamic culture somehow is associated with Arabs! Narrow mindedness at its best!

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## vsdoc

Talon said:


> You tell me...I find Indians shoving it up our noses that we are being ARABS because we are following Islam! Or we have ADAPTED ARABIC CULTURE!
> 
> Because Islamic culture somehow is associated with Arabs! Narrow mindedness at its best!



I think you are being unfair.

That is not what is being discussed.

No one denies that sub-continental Muslims are sons and daughters of the soil.

Or that a lot of what constitutes culture is Indian, has always been Indian, in spite of foreign influences, that rather than changing got absorbed and "Indianized" themselves.

Please also realize than when an Indian says Indian, it includes Pakistan and Bangladesh. The resistance to "Indian" is not Indian.

Yet there is a perceptible communal shift in though process, and communal psyche, that is different from the rest of what constitutes Indian culture - not just Hindu.

And it is that perceptible shift where we see shades of the sands of Arabia on Indian (and now Pakistani and Bangladeshi) soil.

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## Dubious

vsdoc said:


> I think you are being unfair.
> 
> That is not what is being discussed.
> 
> No one denies that sub-continental Muslims are sons and daughters of the soil.
> 
> Or that a lot of what constitutes culture is Indian, has always been Indian, in spite of foreign influences, that rather than changing got absorbed and "Indianized" themselves.
> 
> Please also realize than when an indian says Indian, it includes Pakistan and Bangladesh. The resistance to "Indian" is not Indian.
> 
> Yet there is a perceptible communal shift in though process, and communal psyche, that is different from the rest of what constitutes Indian culture - not just Hindu.
> 
> And it is that perceptible shift where we shades of the sands of Arabia on Indian (and now Pakistani and Bangladeshi) soil.



Well, the thing is ego gets in the way...PLUS from this thread I think the Pakistanis are trying to say that the people who look different, fairer skinned and sharp noses (Caucasian looks ) are different from those with darker skin and broader noses and Indian looks...

That is how I understand it...that these are 2 populations and hence, that is why they claim Indians not to be the same as Pakistanis..because somehow or another Pakistanis on this forum associate Indians to those typical stereotype looks!


----------



## Joe Shearer

Talon said:


> Well, the thing is ego gets in the way...PLUS from this thread I think the Pakistanis are trying to say that the people who look different, fairer skinned and sharp noses (Caucasian looks ) are different from those with darker skin and broader noses and Indian looks...
> 
> That is how I understand it...that these are 2 populations and hence, that is why they claim Indians not to be the same as Pakistanis..because somehow or another Pakistanis on this forum associate Indians to those typical stereotype looks!



Tell me, how do you react to stuff like that, knowing that in turn, Pakistanis are looked down upon in various western countries for being dark and having different features, even if they are intelligent and good at their jobs?

How would you react knowing that genetically the south Asian population is homogeneous except for the Baloch and the Pashtun?

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## vsdoc

Talon said:


> Well, the thing is ego gets in the way...PLUS from this thread I think the Pakistanis are trying to say that the people who look different, fairer skinned and sharp noses (Caucasian looks ) are different from those with darker skin and broader noses and Indian looks...
> 
> That is how I understand it...that these are 2 populations and hence, that is why they claim Indians not to be the same as Pakistanis..because somehow or another Pakistanis on this forum associate Indians to those typical stereotype looks!


 
Now you are entering coconut territory.

Another no-go area for me sadly.

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## Ticker

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Urdu is a fusion of Kharaboli and Persian



ha ha ha ..... 

No it is more than the two languages you mention.


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## Dubious

Joe Shearer said:


> Tell me, how do you react to stuff like that, knowing that in turn, Pakistanis are looked down upon in various western countries for being dark and having different features, even if they are intelligent and good at their jobs?
> 
> How would you react knowing that genetically the south Asian population is homogeneous except for the Baloch and the Pashtun?



That is the thing Pakistanis rarely ARE looked down based on their colour! They ARE looked down based on their silliness! Sadly, it is the truth that MOST of those in foreign nations are from villages who moved to the West when India and Pakistan parted or some after the partitioning! Most are uneducated while the few who ARE educated stay away from media hence are not reported!

Never has their colour been an issue! In fact their futures are admired ESPECIALLY their long eyelashes! YES, you would be surprised at that!

As for the 2nd bit of the question....THERE is a REMARK genetic difference in SOUTH ASIAN POPULATION!
Oh kmon! I hope I am not going to be called a racist! BUT YOU ASKED!

There are genetic studies done and NO ONE CAN DENY that there is A VERY BIG difference in genetic makeup of those 2 populations I described! The Caucasian looking and the dark looking! (the dark look bringing a complex is another case)

The colour, nose structure to even the built all suggests intermixing from more than 1 population for sure! It would be pure denial to push all of them in 1 category and call it HOMOGENEOUS!

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Dialects of Hindi divided into 5 groups: Eastern Hindi, Western Hindi, Pahari, Rajasthani and Bihari. Khariboli belongs to Western Hindi.



Yaar is duniya mein Hindi aur Khariboli ke ilawa bhi languages hein. 

There are over 7000 common words in Urdu and Turkish. 

Pata nahin kya kya boltay hein ye log.

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## Ticker

nForce said:


> While it will be wrong to assume something to be correct just because a foreigner has said so,it will be sheer stupidity and dogmatic to reject something for the very same reason,considering the fact that both the idea are coming from the same person.Thats BS reasoning.



OK. You go and live with your understanding. 

Keep believe in the muck that you actually believe in. 

You are a Hindutvadi nobody with bigotry filled mindless thinking- remain one.

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## Ticker

vsdoc said:


> I think you are being unfair.
> 
> That is not what is being discussed.
> 
> No one denies that sub-continental Muslims are sons and daughters of the soil.
> 
> Or that a lot of what constitutes culture is Indian, has always been Indian, in spite of foreign influences, that rather than changing got absorbed and "Indianized" themselves.
> 
> Please also realize than when an Indian says Indian, it includes Pakistan and Bangladesh. The resistance to "Indian" is not Indian.
> 
> Yet there is a perceptible communal shift in though process, and communal psyche, that is different from the rest of what constitutes Indian culture - not just Hindu.
> 
> And it is that perceptible shift where we see shades of the sands of Arabia on Indian (and now Pakistani and Bangladeshi) soil.



This is an unfair and biased perception. How can an Indian speak for the peoples of Pakistan and Bangladesh, let alone, he can not even speak for all of Indian people. 

Shades of cultural Arabia in the manner is also a mis-perception. If being Muslim gives it an Arabian shade, yes Islam emanated from Arabia, so did Christianity and Judaism. By this analogy the Europeans also are also Arabians. By this analogy, Indonesian Hindus are actually Indians. C'mon, you are an intelligent bloke - where did you come out of such BS.

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Yaar is duniya mein Hindi aur Khariboli ke ilawa bhi languages hein.
> 
> There are over 7000 common words in Urdu and Turkish.
> 
> Pata nahin kya kya boltay hein ye log.



7000 words, I believe you don't use even more than 100 words daily.


----------



## vsdoc

Ticker said:


> This is an unfair and biased perception. How can an Indian speak for the peoples of Pakistan and Bangladesh, let alone, he can not even speak for all of Indian people.



I am not speaking for you. I am speaking for me and us when I say that when Indians say Indian, we include you as well more often than not. Yes, we do not include the north western and western finges because we recognize that they share more with Afghanistan and Iran than you or us.

I hope you will allw me to speak for myself and us at least ...... 



> Shades of cultural Arabia in the manner is also a mis-perception. If being Muslim gives it an Arabian shade, yes Islam emanated from Arabia, so did Christianity and Judaism. By this analogy the Europeans also are also Arabians. By this analogy, Indonesian Hindus are actually Indians. C'mon, you are an intelligent bloke - where did you come out of such BS.



Which brings me back to my early in the day assertion.

Islam is not Indian.

YOU are. Islam is NOT.

When you or others are at pains to prove that Islam integrated into India, you miss the point.

Islam did not change. Islam did not Indianize.

You Islamized. While still remaining Indian.

Some more, some less, of course.

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> 7000 words, I believe you don't use even more than 100 words daily.



No sir. You are wrong here as well. I know because I have a bit of Turkish shud budh as well


----------



## Ticker

vsdoc said:


> I am not speaking for you. I am speaking for me and us when I say that when Indians say Indian, we include you as well more often than not. Yes, we do not include the north western and western finges because we recognize that they share more with Afghanistan and Iran than you or us.
> 
> I hope you will allw me to speak for myself and us at least ......



You can speak about anybody you want to in your home. My argument is that in forums like this you have no right to speak for me or represent me. Who has given you this right. Who are you anyway to represent me. 



> Which brings me back to my early in the day assertion.
> 
> Islam is not Indian.
> 
> YOU are. Islam is NOT.
> 
> When you or others are at pains to prove that Islam integrated into India, you miss the point.
> 
> Islam did not change. Islam did not Indianize.
> 
> You Islamized. While still remaining Indian.
> 
> Some more, some less, of course.



Are you sure that Rig Veda was written in India and when was it written. Whatever your answer, it would be based on speculative arguments. 

Are you sure that Aryans being outsiders did not bring it from outside or wrote it. 

Yes Islam is not Indian. 

Is Hinduism Indian and can you prove it. In Harapa around 3000 BCE, we don't know their language and we don't know their religion. 

Please, these aspects are better not said. I belong to a different country. I have a different culture and I am not Indian. 

Please learn to respect this fact.


----------



## vsdoc

Ticker said:


> You can speak about anybody you want to in your home. My argument is that in forums like this you have no right to speak for me or represent me. Who has given you this right. Who are you anyway to represent me.



I am not speaking for you. 

I am speaking for myself and us.

Us = Indians

You are not an Indian

Yet when we say Indian culturally or people wise, we include you and the Bangladeshis as well.

Its what we do. 

Its what I am referring to.

Its something you can either like or lump.



Ticker said:


> Yes Islam is not Indian.



I agree with you.

Its what I have been saying to anyone willing to listen. 

At the cost of being labeled a bigot and Islamaphobe.

India will always be originally and at its soul Hindu.

As will those of its soil.

And that includes you. Though you may now be Muslim or any other faith.

Please learn to respect this fact.

BLOOD.

FAITH.

SOIL.


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## Ticker

vsdoc said:


> I am not speaking for you.
> 
> I am speaking for myself and us.
> 
> Us = Indians
> 
> You are not an Indian
> 
> Yet *when we say Indian culturally or people wise, we include you and the Bangladeshis as well*.
> 
> Its what we do.
> 
> Its what I am referring to.
> 
> Its something you can either like or lump.



I can't ignore it. This is frivolous and outlandish. Who the heck are you guys. 

Just plain nobody's and identity less lot of people, taken a mantle of representing peoples from two different countries. 

I am neither going to like it nor lump it - I am going to detest it and fight it all along. 

You little piece of chicken S hit, who have given you the right to include me in something I don't want to be part of. 

You are just a different form of Taliban and people like me are going to fight you till such thinking dies. 

Bugger off.

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## vsdoc

Ticker said:


> You little piece of chicken S hit, who have given you the right to include me in something I don't want to be part of.


----------



## Ticker

vsdoc said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Its what I have been saying to anyone willing to listen.
> 
> At the cost of being labeled a bigot and Islamaphobe.
> 
> India will always be originally and at its soul Hindu.
> 
> As will those of its soil.
> 
> And that includes you. Though you may now be Muslim or any other faith.
> 
> Please learn to respect this fact.
> 
> BLOOD.
> 
> FAITH.
> 
> SOIL.



Hinduism was not part of India and it was a foreign faith brought in by Foreigners. 

Therefore, you need to go back from where you came. Because you just don't belong here and you can't even claim to be Indians. 

We Pakistanis are the true sons and daughters of the soil. And Islam is our religion. You don't like it, go back to where you came from.

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## vsdoc

Ticker gets ticked.

Doc goes home.

Bye tin horn!


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## Ticker

vsdoc said:


> Ticker gets ticked.
> 
> Doc goes home.
> 
> Bye tin horn!



Bye Doc.


----------



## ALOK31

Ticker said:


> You can speak about anybody you want to in your home. My argument is that in forums like this you have no right to speak for me or represent me. Who has given you this right. Who are you anyway to represent me.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure that Rig Veda was written in India and when was it written. Whatever your answer, it would be based on speculative arguments.
> 
> Are you sure that Aryans being outsiders did not bring it from outside or wrote it.
> 
> Yes Islam is not Indian.
> 
> Is Hinduism Indian and can you prove it. In Harapa around 3000 BCE, we don't know their language and we don't know their religion.
> 
> Please, these aspects are better not said. I belong to a different country. I have a different culture and I am not Indian.
> 
> Please learn to respect this fact.


islam was never accepted by mostly hindus in india and i think in future never will be .u see mostly hindus not prefer to live in muslim areas because of their food habbits any many many reasons, mostly muslim converts were low caste hindus and some rajput ,jats,punjabi(for power)for my personal experince hindus are not very religious but they are vary conservatie about their culture and religion .and if u talking about aryans when aryans come to india their culture was intermix with local culture and they become indianized just like parsi .but today muslims have totally different case they want to make india arabized but they forget india already have superior culure than arab .

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## WAR-rior

Talon said:


> You tell me...I find Indians shoving it up our noses that we are being ARABS because we are following Islam! Or we have ADAPTED ARABIC CULTURE!
> 
> Because Islamic culture somehow is associated with Arabs! Narrow mindedness at its best!



There is nothing called islamic culture. Culture is formed as per geography irrespective of religion.

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## Ticker

ALOK31 said:


> islam was never accepted by mostly hindus in india and i think in future never will be .u see mostly hindus not prefer to live in muslim areas because of their food habbits any many many reasons, mostly muslim converts were low caste hindus and some rajput ,jats,punjabi(for power)for my personal experince hindus are not very religious but they are vary conservatie about their culture and religion .and if u talking about aryans when aryans come to india their culture was intermix with local culture and they become indianized just like parsi .but today muslims have totally different case they want to make india arabized but they forget india already have superior culure than arab .



Duh ...........


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## Ticker

WAR-rior said:


> There is nothing called islamic culture. Culture is formed as per geography irrespective of religion.



The Kurd people don't have a country. They are divided in to three to four different countries. Yet they have a culture intrinsic to their existence. 

The Jewish people were distributed all over the world and did not have a geographic entity. They have a distinct Jewish culture. They live in America and follow the American way of life and its culture but also follow the Jewish traditions and Jewish culture. 

There is a world out there besides India.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> I can't ignore it. This is frivolous and outlandish. Who the heck are you guys.
> 
> Just plain nobody's and identity less lot of people, taken a mantle of representing peoples from two different countries.
> 
> I am neither going to like it nor lump it - I am going to detest it and fight it all along.
> 
> You little piece of chicken S hit, who have given you the right to include me in something I don't want to be part of.
> 
> You are just a different form of Taliban and people like me are going to fight you till such thinking dies.
> 
> Bugger off.


Baap re baap itta gussa...hitler bhi darr ke shiver kar raha hoga.

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Baap re baap itta gussa...hitler bhi darr ke shiver kar raha hoga.



ha ha ha .... 

koi ghussa wussa nahin. 

ye to bas darawa hi hai.

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## ajtr

I've this theory that hitler went from IVC to germany not the other way round.he took the swastika with him as mark of pure aryan race.


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## Ticker

Pakak said:


> Muslims are outsiders , there are many culture and religion arrived in India , India and Indians accepted all. Except islam which first time brought religious massacre in India , Burnt Ancient universities,Libraries in india.
> India which was free for every faith , a heaven for all faith was leading position Math,Science,Astrology. But Islam disturbed India after arrival islam it was darkest period of India, all stopped Science,Faith.
> Islam Divided India On religious ground With border of Hate trade. It's not the case that Islam have problem with only Indians, They have problem with all religions and cultures
> They hate Christens , Buddhist , Hindus , Jews .Islam have problem with every religion on earth



ha ha ha .......

Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place. 

Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> I've this theory that hitler went from IVC to germany not the other way round.he took the swastika with him as mark of pure aryan race.



And why did you stay back.

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## Hello_10

Myth_buster_1 said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.



enough


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## Pakak

Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.



definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy culture, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.


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## Pakak

Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.



definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy culture, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.


----------



## Pakak

Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.





Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.



definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy cultures, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.


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## Pakak

Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.
> 
> 
> 
> And why did you stay back.



definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy culture, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> And why did you stay back.


i got re-incarnated again in subcontinent.

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## Myth_buster_1

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol.... I am just expressing my view, how does it make me a coward??
> 
> ok thats fine with me. Read my post once again to understand it better.
> 
> Islam is not a bad religion at all but it was not embraced by masses peacefully like people claim here. Invaders enforced it to majority through economic favours, through fears of prosecution,by applying taxes like Jiziyas.We are not living in Zia's pakistan where text book history & facts are manipulated, we know better about conversion techniques used by muslim rulers than you do.
> 
> But do you know DAR-UL-HARB & DAR-UL-ISLAM concepts?? Study a little about it and then lets discuss about it.



Its you who is living in the past because i have clearly said that TODAY Islam is the fastest growing religion in West among natives. 
And I do not care how Islam was introduced to the region, I am just glad that I am not part of Hinduism which my ancestors practiced because they were dumb!


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## ishaqzaade

Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .......
> 
> Do you know how many were killed in Mahabharata, your religious epic. You want to discuss other epic wars in Hinduism - why did Lord Krishna go to Dawarka in the first place.
> 
> Please find out first and then discuss the killings and dark ages etc etc.


bro no. of killed in mahabharata as much as truth as much in islam 72 virgin hoor in jannat and adam eve story or earth is flat .by the way islamic rule was dark age of india .


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## Myth_buster_1

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Why???A mere 65 year old country thinks its official owner or everything that realtes to Islam which is itself 1400 year old??
> 
> We didnt asked for a seperate hindu state...Being a secular country India is meant for all hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs, etc.
> 
> Everything that heritage of Indian muslims or muslims born on our soil belongs to us. Is that difficult to understand ???



So think of Pakistan that just landed from planet mars and non of the heritage of the region belongs to us. Typical brain washed cry baby Indian.


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## Myth_buster_1

WAR-rior said:


> Tommorow if i follow islam, i wont stop doing my daily routine, i wont stop living my normal life. the only thing will change is my faith and the way i worship god. Learn the defination and difference between RELIGION and CULTURE.


 Only if you have a atom worth of useful braincell in you, you would know that culture changes with Islam. 
Thank god im not a india and dont follow a religion of 4000+BC.


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## Myth_buster_1

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol...Because Hindu are self contained, they are not in race of increasing head counts to prove their superiority & advertising their religions like Marketing company do.


 You either live under a rock or simply cant think from yourself. As we speak, minorities are persecuted by Hindus for leaving Hindusim. 


> Hinduism is not a religion which treats other religions or faith as wrong or sinful.


Thats because Hindusim is a wrong religion which can not prove any other religion wrong. 


> It doesnt have religious verses which ask devotees to convert non-hindus & promise them rewards in jannat or swarga.


Your argument is not even worth of an atom. Islam does emphasizes on proving other religion wrong however their is not a single verse which commands to convert people by sword. expecting a out of context verse in your rants.


> Neither it believes that ALMIGHTY GOD is one & only he needs to worshipped on contrary it believes there are 100s of way to reach God.


Exactly, thats the reason why im glad I do not worship human and animal gods. 


> Also Hindu believes every human being is born as Hindu, he baptized to islam or christianity after his birth.


Im am glad Im not a Hindu


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> No sir. You are wrong here as well. I know because I have a bit of Turkish shud budh as well



Then why can't Turks understand Urdu, nor they claim Urdu.


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## nForce

Ticker said:


> OK. You go and live with your understanding.
> 
> Keep believe in the muck that you actually believe in.
> 
> You are a Hindutvadi nobody with bigotry filled mindless thinking- remain one.



I really dont understand how do you draw the conclusion that I am a Hindutvadi and even further more important,how that is of any significance here.I have presented an article that logically explains the origin of the language.If you find any flaw in the logic then why dont you point that ? If you are unable to take part in a logical discussion,then better shut your mouth,and let more intelligent people do the talking.


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## nForce

Ticker said:


> Hinduism was not part of India and it was a foreign faith brought in by Foreigners.
> 
> Therefore, you need to go back from where you came. Because you just don't belong here and you can't even claim to be Indians.
> 
> We Pakistanis are the true sons and daughters of the soil. And Islam is our religion. You don't like it, go back to where you came from.



Try following your own advice.Try going back Saudi Arabia,where from Islam has originated.See if they embrace you with open arms.......

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## t_for_talli

pakfoj said:


> i think most of the culture comes from the Mughals, who were muslims. so technically there is no indian culture (apart from religion off course) the true "indian" culture comes from Mughal muslims(customs, religious, clothing, food, architecture, and even language, etc) which can now be seen mostly in Pakistan and india for that matter.



You have a misconception that Indian culture is Hindu Culture
Muslim culture dosent mean pakistani culture. As muslim is as Indian as a Hindu/Jain/SIkh/Christian
Effectively you inherit Indian culture

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## t_for_talli

Myth_buster_1 said:


> India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. Take the entire Indus civil but Muslim heritage of India belongs to us.


India claim IVC because we inherit that culture
And we also claim Mughal Culture because We inherit their culture
Pakistanis have misconception that Indian Culture is Hindu Culture


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## chess

future_bound said:


> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> 
> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!![/QUOTE]
> 
> Muslims will flourish in India. The state of minority mostly depends on the attitude and tolerence of the majority towards them. There is no wonder that the Hindus are in so less numbers.


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## Ticker

Pakak said:


> definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy culture, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.



*The number killed in the Mahabharata War*

April 9, 2009  Hariprasad 

My previous article on the Akshouhini gave rise to some interesting discussions in the comments section. Sri Chiraan rightly pointed out that the actual number of people who participated in the war had to be much more. It was, after all, the Mahabharata war!

I recalled reading in the Tatparya Nirnaya that the number 18 Akshouhinis was just the core army. The actual army *had* to be much bigger! So I got down to doing some research on this and yes, the Bhaarata has captured this detail as well. We find details of the actual fatalities (and survivors) in the war in the Stri Parva. The Pandavas, along with Krishna, come to meet Dhritharashtra and Gandhari. At one point, Dhritharashtra asks Yudhishthira if he knows the number of people dead and number of survivors. The numbers that Dharma reveals are

	*Fatalities : 1 billion, 660 million and 20,000!!!*
	*Survivors : 240,165*

*Todays world population is 6 billion, 700 odd million. Even in todays terms, about 25% of the population got wiped out in the war!
*

This piece of information is in the Stri Parva (11th Parva) of the Mahabharata. I reproduce below the original shloka(s) and Gangulys translation of the same.

dashayutanam ayutam sahasrani cha vimshatihi |
kotyah shashtishcha shat chaiva ye asmin rajamrudhe hataha ||
alakshyaanam tu veeraanam sahasraani chaturdasha |
dasha chaanyani rajendra shataam shashtis cha pancha cha ||

*One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle*. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165&#8243;

Truly, the war was a Maha Yuddha!

The number killed in the Mahabharata War « Anandatirtha Prathishtana

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## my2cents

Pakak said:


> definitely not even near about that islam killed . There is always difference between warrior and barbarians , Barbarians kill innocent people , rape women , destroy culture, . everything is fair in islam with non-muslims even rape is allowed.



You will not last long if you start hurting religious sentiments of others. Be warned!!!!!!!!!!

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> i got re-incarnated again in subcontinent.



From Mehrgarh 7000 BCE.

I told you earlier as well. Bahot hi purani aatma ho tum.


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## Ticker

ishaqzaade said:


> bro no. of killed in mahabharata as much as truth as much in islam 72 virgin hoor in jannat and adam eve story or earth is flat .by the way islamic rule was dark age of india .



We converted India to what India was. 

You guys are trying hard to break up even what you currently have. 

Good luck to you.



Gigawatt said:


> Then why can't Turks understand Urdu, nor they claim Urdu.



Ask the Turks. 

They will tell you that they speak Turkish - however, they do understand the common words that are spoken. 

Surprising that majority of Hindu Indian people do not speak Sanskrit.

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## Ticker

nForce said:


> I really dont understand how do you draw the conclusion that I am a Hindutvadi and even further more important,how that is of any significance here.I have presented an article that logically explains the origin of the language.If you find any flaw in the logic then why dont you point that ? If you are unable to take part in a logical discussion,then better shut your mouth,and let more intelligent people do the talking.



ha ha ha .....

The article did not present a logical explanation. It quoted some one's theory. Which history proves it to be wrong.



nForce said:


> Try following your own advice.Try going back Saudi Arabia,where from Islam has originated.See if they embrace you with open arms.......



Nope. I am staying right here. 

You go back to where you came from.

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## Ticker

t_for_talli said:


> You have a misconception that Indian culture is Hindu Culture
> Muslim culture dosent mean pakistani culture. As muslim is as Indian as a Hindu/Jain/SIkh/Christian
> Effectively you inherit Indian culture



No we don't inherit Indian culture. 

We have a Pakistani culture and we are proud of it. 

The current India, which got its independence in 1947, is trying to seek its culture in old India's history. 

Old India's history is here in Pakistan. The Indus Valley Civilization. We hold its cradle and we are the scions. 

Who are you guys?

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Ask the Turks.
> 
> They will tell you that they speak Turkish - however, they do understand the common words that are spoken.
> 
> *Surprising that majority of Hindu Indian people do not speak Sanskrit.*



How do you know.


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## Ticker

chess said:


> future_bound said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your argument that Islam is about arab culture does not hold water. Only one-eighth of the muslim population worldwide is Arab. And there is not much historical evidence to support your assertion that islam was spread by force in the sub-continent.
> That is because Islam is a global religion and has attracted followers and converts from all over the world. Islam is compatiable with every culture and land.
> Hinduism is more of a regional religion and has not attracted followers anywhere outside the sub-continent with the only exception of hare krishnas, who are very small in number. Throughout history, people have always converted out of hinduism and hinduism shares similarities with paganism.
> 
> Almost the entire history that the hindus claim as their own happened in the land called Pakistan. The Indus valley civilization almost in it's entirety was in Pakistan.
> 
> It pains the hindus when they see that the land of such historical and cultural significance to them is now in muslim hands FOREVER. Now hindus are less than 2% of Pakistan's population and in a few more decades there will be no trace of hinduism left in Pakistan!![/QUOTE]
> 
> Muslims will flourish in India. The state of minority mostly depends on the attitude and tolerence of the majority towards them. There is no wonder that the Hindus are in so less numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So.
> 
> What's your point.
> 
> 
> 
> Gigawatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I know that I know.
Click to expand...


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> This is an unfair and biased perception. How can an Indian speak for the peoples of Pakistan and Bangladesh, let alone, he can not even speak for all of Indian people.
> 
> Shades of cultural Arabia in the manner is also a mis-perception. If being Muslim gives it an Arabian shade, yes Islam emanated from Arabia, so did Christianity and Judaism. By this analogy the Europeans also are also Arabians. By this analogy, Indonesian Hindus are actually Indians. C'mon, you are an intelligent bloke - where did you come out of such BS.



I am a Pakistani Indian&#8230;&#8230; | Pak Tea House

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## Manas

Myth_buster_1 said:


> India can claim Indus civilization because it is hindu's heritage however at the same time you can not take Pakistan's heritage of Muslim developments in India. T*ake the entire Indus civil but Muslim heritage of India belongs to us.*



U must be kidding??

You guys still deride those muslim settlers who left india for the newly created pakistan during the partition days as the "Mohajirs or refugees " in your land , but you want to claim the Muslim heritage of India for pakistan.


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> We converted India to what India was.
> 
> You guys are trying hard to break up even what you currently have.
> 
> Good luck to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Ask the Turks.
> 
> They will tell you that they speak Turkish - however, they do understand the common words that are spoken.
> 
> Surprising that majority of Hindu Indian people do not speak Sanskrit.



The Turks can't understand Urdu because Urdu is a lot of loan words bolted onto an Indo-Aryan language. Neither can they understand Urdu, nor can Urdu speakers understand 
Turkish.

About majority of Hindu Indians not speaking Sanskrit, the framing of the group shows basic ignorance. Only those whose languages are derivatives of Sanskrit, or rather, of Prakrit might be taunted in this immature fashion. Those Hindu Indians speaking Telugu, Kannada, Tulu, Tamil and Malayalee are just as likely to speak Sanskrit as an Uzbek or a Turkmen.

No derived language speaker speaks the original language. Ask the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Rhaeto-Romans and Romanians why they cannot speak Latin, and they will give the fool asking a knot in the head.

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## abvgroup

what is indian culture? it's a mixture of every thing that came from outside and local culture. Muslims had a huge influence on Indian society which hindus like to deny, after all muslims ruled india for almost a 1000 years.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> I am a Pakistani Indian | Pak Tea House



A good article indeed, expressing a point of view. 

I sit in a group of friends who have different perceptions and views about Pakistan and India. It indeed is a marvelous mix. Most of them however, have never even been to India in their entire life. We all have met Indians from different parts of India in foreign countries and have a great regard for them. Many are good friends. 

For most of us, India is a foreign country, some of whose people speak similar language. The culture that we see on Indian TV is almost completely alien to most of us except for some similarity in spoken language. And despite this, many people both Indian and Pakistani, say on the TV that we are the same people having the same culture. This indeed surprises us. 

And when I see the Indians here who also have never been to Pakistan, say the same thing, I don't understand it - why do we say this when we are from two different entities. What is the reason for saying this. Why don't we respect each other for who we are rather than who we were. 

Because we belong to different countries, we perceive our history differently. I dont claim that because Muslims ruled India once, the whole of India should be mine. However, when I hear Indian views on PDF and on many other Indian forums, it really amuses me. And these views are overwhelmingly expressed by Indian Hindus. 

Is there a loss that hurts them, is it a complex about their identity or the crisis therein, is it that they have found the India they wanted to rule after all this time, not in the manner they had hoped for, are they looking for an India of Chadragupt era  what is it that the current Indian Hindus seek from the present India, and what do they want the present India to become in future. It is very interesting to hear their different views. 

If it impinges me and my identity  I am going to fight back. I am here to stay as me and no amount of Indias perceived Hindu history is going to change that.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> The Turks can't understand Urdu because Urdu is a lot of loan words bolted onto an Indo-Aryan language. Neither can they understand Urdu, nor can Urdu speakers understand
> Turkish.
> 
> About majority of Hindu Indians not speaking Sanskrit, the framing of the group shows basic ignorance. Only those whose languages are derivatives of Sanskrit, or rather, of Prakrit might be taunted in this immature fashion. Those Hindu Indians speaking Telugu, Kannada, Tulu, Tamil and Malayalee are just as likely to speak Sanskrit as an Uzbek or a Turkmen.
> 
> No derived language speaker speaks the original language. Ask the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Rhaeto-Romans and Romanians why they cannot speak Latin, and they will give the fool asking a knot in the head.



I agree with you. But the manner in which such views are expressed is indeed demeaning. It smacks of subservience and I being from a different sovereign country can not ever accept such a tone or tenor. 

I have read Indian history and some other related text books. To me, it is indeed an amusing depiction of India's history. These books create a false impact about India's old glory and gives me to understand that Indians are being taught since childhood that because IVC etc and other geographical parts adjoining India are basically Indian and their depiction is geographically proven in Vedas etc, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, including the Sri Lankans are occupiers of Indian lands. And it implicates that these lands should be included in India at all costs. 

The linguistic similarities are also propounded to highlight the same aspects. 

I don't accept this and never will. The sooner most Indian Hindus realize this, it will be better for all of us.

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> I agree with you. But the manner in which such views are expressed is indeed demeaning. It smacks of subservience and I being from a different sovereign country can not ever accept such a tone or tenor.
> 
> I have read Indian history and some other related text books. To me, it is indeed an amusing depiction of India's history. These books create a false impact about India's old glory and gives me to understand that Indians are being taught since childhood that because IVC etc and other geographical parts adjoining India are basically Indian and their depiction is geographically proven in Vedas etc, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, including the Sri Lankans are occupiers of Indian lands. And it implicates that these lands should be included in India at all costs.
> 
> The linguistic similarities are also propounded to highlight the same aspects.
> 
> I don't accept this and never will. The sooner most Indian Hindus realize this, it will be better for all of us.



So, your point is that Indians can't claim heritage of Sindhis and Punjabis when they are the part of Indian population. Khan baba you have wierd logic.


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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> So, your point is that Indians can't claim heritage of Sindhis and Punjabis when they are the part of Indian population. Khan baba you have wierd logic.



Let those people claim what they want their heritage to be after creation of current India in 1947. Children of the people who moved from Pakistan's Sindh or Punjab may not draw their heritage from where their parents moved from. 

Don't claim that because some people moved from old India, a thousand some years ago to Indonesia and converted some or all to Hinduism, they have an Indian heritage.

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> I agree with you. But the manner in which such views are expressed is indeed demeaning. It smacks of subservience and I being from a different sovereign country can not ever accept such a tone or tenor.



Precisely.

Because you resent the tone, you reject the substance. What can be more unsound than that?



> I have read Indian history and some other related text books. To me, it is indeed an amusing depiction of India's history. These books create a false impact about India's old glory and gives me to understand that Indians are being taught since childhood that because IVC etc and other geographical parts adjoining India are basically Indian and their depiction is geographically proven in Vedas etc, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, including the Sri Lankans are occupiers of Indian lands. And it implicates that these lands should be included in India at all costs.



It is difficult to comment on that.

This may sound condescending and arrogant, but there is no way of controlling what rubbish is written, even less so, what rubbish people take up to read. There are no **** filters on written martial, otherwise you would not have the spread of internet Hindus with their access to seriously dangerous sources of misiniformation. I am concerned here with the opposite end, the pro-Islam end.

Also I was not able to comprehend your last two sentences. They sound like sweeping oversimplifications, but it is difficult to understand the objections.



> The linguistic similarities are also propounded to highlight the same aspects.
> 
> I don't accept this and never will. The sooner most Indian Hindus realize this, it will be better for all of us.



Again, as an Indian agnostic, but one opposed to all religions, I am unable to understand the argument.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> A good article indeed, expressing a point of view.
> 
> I sit in a group of friends who have different perceptions and views about Pakistan and India. It indeed is a marvelous mix. Most of them however, have never even been to India in their entire life. We all have met Indians from different parts of India in foreign countries and have a great regard for them. Many are good friends.
> 
> For most of us, India is a foreign country, some of whose people speak similar language. The culture that we see on Indian TV is almost completely alien to most of us except for some similarity in spoken language. And despite this, many people both Indian and Pakistani, say on the TV that we are the same people having the same culture. This indeed surprises us.
> 
> And when I see the Indians here who also have never been to Pakistan, say the same thing, I don't understand it - why do we say this when we are from two different entities. What is the reason for saying this. Why don't we respect each other for who we are rather than who we were.
> 
> Because we belong to different countries, we perceive our history differently. I don&#8217;t claim that because Muslims ruled India once, the whole of India should be mine. However, when I hear Indian views on PDF and on many other Indian forums, it really amuses me. And these views are overwhelmingly expressed by Indian Hindus.
> 
> Is there a loss that hurts them, is it a complex about their identity or the crisis therein, is it that they have found the India they wanted to rule after all this time, not in the manner they had hoped for, are they looking for an India of Chadragupt era &#8211; what is it that the current Indian Hindus seek from the present India, and what do they want the present India to become in future. It is very interesting to hear their different views.
> 
> If it impinges me and my identity &#8211; I am going to fight back. I am here to stay as me and no amount of India&#8217;s perceived Hindu history is going to change that.



I read this after I read #643, and COMPLETELY agree with this.

Frankly, #643 was not well-structured. This is, and it is lucid and logical.

You asked about what Hindus seek from present India. I cannot answer for the Hindus, but in a separate post, hope to outline what the present India should become in future, from the point of view of an Indian.


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## t_for_talli

Ticker said:


> No we don't inherit Indian culture.
> 
> We have a Pakistani culture and we are proud of it.
> 
> The current India, which got its independence in 1947, is trying to seek its culture in old India's history.
> 
> Old India's history is here in Pakistan. The Indus Valley Civilization. We hold its cradle and we are the scions.
> 
> Who are you guys?



Again I am repeating 

You own a piece of land where that culture existed but you donot own IVC culture
Culture is owned by those who inherit it

Palestinian/Israeli never claim Christianity
People of Istanbul never claim roman culture
But all insecure Pakistanis shamelessly claim IVC

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## ishaqzaade

Ticker said:


> We converted India to what India was.
> 
> You guys are trying hard to break up even what you currently have.
> 
> Good luck to you.
> 
> 
> .


british converted india to what today india is.chandragupta mourya was the first samrat who unite whole south asia not barberian aurangjab . islamic invaders are responsible for raping ,looting ,force convertion .and no one forget no of temples they destroyed ,and how any one forget great nalanda who destroy by these fanatics .these barberian are ur hero not ours .
i don't think india is a country who broke two parts in 1971 and currently balochistan freedom strugle also running .

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## ishaqzaade

Ticker said:


> No we don't inherit Indian culture.
> 
> We have a Pakistani culture and we are proud of it.
> 
> The current India, which got its independence in 1947, is trying to seek its culture in old India's history.
> 
> Old India's history is here in Pakistan. The Indus Valley Civilization. We hold its cradle and we are the scions.
> 
> Who are you guys?


hume pakistan me kuch khojne ki jarurat nahi wo to khud cultureless country hai no past non-muslim culture is alive in pakistan .india have eight classical dance styles (see table below).who is more than 2500 years old and no one is find in ur country .how many dance style pakistani have ??i only know mujara who is famous in pakistan (but not a classical dance).





.
u copy indian marriage style .

by the way old indian history and culture in pakistan was dead .only some arab and middile eastern culture fallowed by pakistani with some indian mix .u find many indian infulence history and culture in south east asia (like dance ,temple,ramayan ,mahabharat) .






temple 






ramayan in thailand 











.


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## yyetttt

^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia


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## RazPaK

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia




Lmao, as crude and ignorant as your response was, it was the correct one. Had me laughing to be honest.

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## harpoon

The easiest way for Pakistan to get rid of Indian influence is to change their national language to Farsi or Arabic or something like that from Urdu. AFAIK, Pakistan is the only country that made a language spoken by the minority to be national language, so they can do it again.


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## ishaqzaade

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia


bollywood dance is mixture of these old classical indian dances .and these dance influnced whole of south east asian dance .


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## harpoon

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... *Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia*



Only in Pakistan.


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## RazPaK

Jeez man, We Pakistanis should just say that our culture is the same to get these morons off of our back.

Never seen this kind of persistence in my life.

However I can promise that if any of these Indians were ever to come to live with me in Pakistan, they would be in the ride of their life. To be honest it's hilarious.


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## Peshwa

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia



Please dont resort to generalizing your level of ignorance to others from the subcontinent...

NOTE: Mujra is NOT a classical dance nor a type of dance...dont malign art by comparing the two

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## RazPaK

These Indians are the people that say our culture is the same, when If I fired my rifle, they would start crying and trashing the country as unsafe. I really don't get it.


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## ishaqzaade

Bharat natyam






kochipudi






Kathak






Manipuri






katkhakali


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## RazPaK

ishaqzaade said:


> Bharat natyam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kochipudi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kathak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manipuri



That's great stuff man, but nobody in Pakistan does this.

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## yyetttt

ishaqzaade said:


> Bharat natyam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kochipudi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kathak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manipuri



Lol what is this?? Never heard of this **** in my life


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## yyetttt

t_for_talli said:


> Again I am repeating
> 
> You own a piece of land where that culture existed but you donot own IVC culture
> Culture is owned by those who inherit it
> 
> Palestinian/Israeli never claim Christianity
> People of Istanbul never claim roman culture
> But all insecure Pakistanis shamelessly claim IVC



1. Israeli have Christianity culture if you didnt notice... Look at Jerusalem.
2. what istanbul people claim is not our problem
3. WE can calim IVC as its our culture, and it was in our region, you cannot because you are dravidian. goodbye


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## nForce

abvgroup said:


> what is indian culture? it's a mixture of every thing that came from outside and local culture. Muslims had a huge influence on Indian society which hindus like to deny, after all muslims ruled india for almost a 1000 years.



Never ever denied the Muslim influence on Indian culture.They the part of the subcontinent after all.
At this point,let me tell you,Muslim culture does not mean Pakistani culture,the opposite may or may not be correct,its a different topic altogether.
But the title of the topic is about influence of Indian culture in Pakistan.So,please concentrate on that.


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## ishaqzaade

Mohiniyattam







oddisi






Sattriya






other indian dance 

Gaudiya Nritya-West bengal






Andhra Natyam and Vilasini Natyam-Andhra pradesh











Kerala Natanam


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## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia





RazPaK said:


> Lmao, as crude and ignorant as your response was, it was the correct one. Had me laughing to be honest.




You found that profoundly ignorant response 'honest'? And funny? I am surprised.


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## yyetttt

I CANT SEE PAGE 45


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## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia





RazPaK said:


> These Indians are the people that say our culture is the same, when If I fired my rifle, they would start crying and trashing the country as unsafe. I really don't get it.




I didn't get this bit.


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## ajtr

My only take on culture etc topic that can be summed up in single line...However hard Pakistan tries or for that matter of fact any other country in indian subcontinent they cant escape from the shadows of India.


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## free thinker

RazPaK said:


> That's great stuff man, but nobody in Pakistan does this.



Of course they don't.
I do not want to sound smug, but the thing is most of the cultural aspects of Pakistan, can be found India (including your most prized dance form, mujra). But the reverse is not true.
In short, Pakistani culture is a subset of the much larger and varied Indian culture.


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## vsdoc

ajtr said:


> I've this theory that hitler went from IVC to germany not the other way round.he took the swastika with him as mark of pure aryan race.



His Aryan claims were BS at best, diluted as their bloodlines were.

Aryans were NEVER blond and blue eyed. Aryans were always dark haired and olive skinned.

There is a dark haired Scandinavian remote tribe which along with the Parsis of India have been linked to the closest we still have in the modern world of mixed bloodlines to the original Aryan race.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> A good article indeed, expressing a point of view.
> 
> I sit in a group of friends who have different perceptions and views about Pakistan and India. It indeed is a marvelous mix. Most of them however, have never even been to India in their entire life. We all have met Indians from different parts of India in foreign countries and have a great regard for them. Many are good friends.
> 
> For most of us, India is a foreign country, some of whose people speak similar language. The culture that we see on Indian TV is almost completely alien to most of us except for some similarity in spoken language. And despite this, many people both Indian and Pakistani, say on the TV that we are the same people having the same culture. This indeed surprises us.
> 
> And when I see the Indians here who also have never been to Pakistan, say the same thing, I don't understand it - why do we say this when we are from two different entities. What is the reason for saying this. Why don't we respect each other for who we are rather than who we were.
> 
> Because we belong to different countries, we perceive our history differently. I dont claim that because Muslims ruled India once, the whole of India should be mine. However, when I hear Indian views on PDF and on many other Indian forums, it really amuses me. And these views are overwhelmingly expressed by Indian Hindus.
> 
> Is there a loss that hurts them, is it a complex about their identity or the crisis therein, is it that they have found the India they wanted to rule after all this time, not in the manner they had hoped for, are they looking for an India of Chadragupt era  what is it that the current Indian Hindus seek from the present India, and what do they want the present India to become in future. It is very interesting to hear their different views.
> 
> *If it impinges me and my identity  I am going to fight back. I am here to stay as me and no amount of Indias perceived Hindu history is going to change that.*


Seems more than hindus who type on various forum about culture-vulture issues it affects you when you read all those stuff...If hindus can provoke just typing that it raises you BP then half of their success is confirmed. And all those success is displayed here in threads like these and articles and talk shows originating from pakistan on topic hindi overtaking urdu or bollywood indian serials etc are affecting the cultural values of pakistani kids youth etc.


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## vsdoc

Page badlo post


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## INDIC

jellodragon said:


> ^^ Nobody even knows any of those dances... Mujra is probably the most popular in South Asia



Mujra originated in India from Kathak dance form but Pakistanis copied it making it vulgar.


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## ajtr

Gigawatt said:


> Mujra originated in India from Kathak dance form but Pakistanis copied it making it vulgar.


yeh to hona hi tha.As they say naqal ke liye bhi aql chahiye hoti hai.......

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## imperialmen

jellodragon said:


> I CANT SEE PAGE 45



For anyone who gets this problem.... close all PDF tabs, clear your cache. And try again. The pages will then load.

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## Jackdaws

Pakistan shares some traits but that is common between neighboring nations. Denmark-Sweden-Norway; Portugal-Spain; USA-Canada. 

But Pakistani culture diverged significantly after Partition - their embrace of Wahabi culture has led to a more Arabized culture; whereas the Muslim culture of India is more Persian. More Indian Muslims would say "Khuda Hafiz" ; more Pakistanis would say "Allah Hafiz". 

Of course, Hindu culture is all but wiped out in present day Pakistan except for a few monuments. Sadly, even Sikh culture since present Pakistan is home to a lot of Sikh holy places.


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## ajtr

Jackdaws said:


> Pakistan shares some traits but that is common between neighboring nations. Denmark-Sweden-Norway; Portugal-Spain; USA-Canada.
> 
> But Pakistani culture diverged significantly after Partition - their embrace of Wahabi culture has led to a more Arabized culture; whereas the Muslim culture of India is more Persian. More Indian Muslims would say "Khuda Hafiz" ; more Pakistanis would say "Allah Hafiz".
> 
> Of course, Hindu culture is all but wiped out in present day Pakistan except for a few monuments. Sadly, even Sikh culture since present Pakistan is home to a lot of Sikh holy places.


What cultural traits are common between say south and north india and east and west india?

As for "Allah Hafiz" is spoken among indian muslims too.

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## INDIC

ajtr said:


> What cultural traits are common between say south and north india and east and west india?
> 
> As for "Allah Hafiz" is spoken among indian muslims too.



Most visible similarity is the dress culture.

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## free thinker

ajtr said:


> What cultural traits are common between say south and north india and east and west india?
> 
> As for "Allah Hafiz" is spoken among indian muslims too.



Lots of things, for example, both Bharatnatyam and Kathak are inspired by ancient mythical stories.
The themes of the ballads are similar although the narration maybe different!
There are similarities in sculptures as can be seen in various ancient temples. 
Plenty more...


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## t_for_talli

jellodragon said:


> 1. Israeli have Christianity culture if you didnt notice... Look at Jerusalem.
> 2. what istanbul people claim is not our problem
> 3. WE can calim IVC as its our culture, and it was in our region, you cannot because you are dravidian. goodbye



I seems like you didn't read my post clearly
let me put it in simple words 'Pakistan owns that land and India owns the culture'

Culture is not a materialistic thing like a piece of land or a building its embedded in your day today life and i am unable to figure out IVC culture among Pakistanis{which they are claiming as theirs}


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## my2cents

Ticker said:


> No we don't inherit Indian culture.
> 
> We have a Pakistani culture and we are proud of it.
> 
> The current India, which got its independence in 1947, is trying to seek its culture in old India's history.
> 
> Old India's history is here in Pakistan. The Indus Valley Civilization. We hold its cradle and we are the scions.
> 
> Who are you guys?



You got it wrong...my friend. We Hindus are the keepers and preservers of the ancient texts and rituals. We call ours... sanatana dharma, meaning eternally hold all together. Our Hindu philosophy have underpinnings in Vedanta and Upanishads. Evidence of various symbols of IVC like swastika and yogic posture of Shiva are still revered today in India. 

It was just a physical division of the subcontinent and nothing else. You guys do not possess the same psychological frame like we do to understand the guiding beliefs and ideals......what I call Hindu ethos, whose characteristics have been passed from one generation to another going back to IVC. This continuity of thought going all the way back to Aryans is unique to our subcontinent.


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## kumarkumar1867

Talon said:


> You tell me...I find Indians shoving it up our noses that we are being ARABS because we are following Islam! Or we have ADAPTED ARABIC CULTURE!
> 
> Because Islamic culture somehow is associated with Arabs! Narrow mindedness at its best!



Did you read all comments before posting here.
I guess not thread is created by Pakistani & if you read initial posts to OPs you will clearly understand how wrong you are in concluding whats being discussed or debated here.

I request you to read atleast first 8-10 pages then decide what pakistanis & indians are exactly doing.


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## kumarkumar1867

vsdoc said:


> I am not speaking for you. I am speaking for me and us when I say that when Indians say Indian, we include you as well more often than not. Yes, we do not include the north western and western finges because we recognize that they share more with Afghanistan and Iran than you or us.
> 
> I hope you will allw me to speak for myself and us at least ......
> 
> 
> 
> Which brings me back to my early in the day assertion.
> 
> Islam is not Indian.
> 
> YOU are. Islam is NOT.
> 
> When you or others are at pains to prove that Islam integrated into India, you miss the point.
> 
> Islam did not change. Islam did not Indianize.
> 
> You Islamized. While still remaining Indian.
> 
> Some more, some less, of course.



Exellent Post Doctor !!


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## RazPaK

Joe Shearer said:


> I didn't get this bit.




As people we face similar problems, but our cultures I believe are affected by our environments, and I think they would be considered different.


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## RazPaK

free thinker said:


> Of course they don't.
> I do not want to sound smug, but the thing is most of the cultural aspects of Pakistan, can be found India (including your most prized dance form, mujra). But the reverse is not true.
> In short, Pakistani culture is a subset of the much larger and varied Indian culture.



There are various cultural dances, but your example is not exactly correct.


Punjabi bhangra can be found on both sides of the border, but attan dance cannot be found in India.

All people have different customs within marriage as well. If India has inherited culture from Pakistan, through partitioners, that is one thing, but to say Pakistani culture belongs to an Indian subset is ridiculous.


----------



## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Its you who is living in the past because i have clearly said that TODAY Islam is the fastest growing religion in West among natives.



It wasnt me who started debates on how and why your ancestors got converted.Now you are whinning about TODAY, so let me tell you Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism will never be in rat race of increasing head counts following our religion by converting non-believers, killing non-hindus, breeding like animals, inspiring conversions of infidels by religious texts & heavenly rewards, *even by influencing peoples peacefully*, etc be it TODAY, YESTERDAY or TOMMORROW.



> And I do not care how Islam was introduced to the region, I am just glad that I *am not part of Hinduism which my ancestors practiced because they were dumb*!



HYPOCRISY at its best. Pakistan dont need external enemy with people like you.

Yes I can see what your grandchildrens will talk about you if, Allah na Kare, Pakistan is occupied by America or China or Afghanistan in future.

One one hand you feel pride about IVC & claim it while on other you say your ancestors were dumb you are totally different from your ancestors whose genes biologically defines you. Nothing different than overthrowing Jinnah concept of democratic secular state & creating present day mess which is unfortunately our neighbouring country.




Myth_buster_1 said:


> So think of Pakistan that just landed from planet mars and non of the heritage of the region belongs to us. Typical brain washed cry baby Indian.



Its doesnt need to be genious to read & comprehend posts properly.

I said was Pakistan should not claim every islamic thing happened in PRESENT INDIAN BORDERS as their own, we indians means hindus muslims christians.Islamic things that flourished or originated from our lands are legacy of Indian muslims. No Indian muslim claim MInaar-E-Pakistan as his cultural stuff. 

As far as IVC is concerned it belongs to Hindus.Because there was no Pakistan nor muslims at those time, it was just hindus India/Arywrat/Bharat/Jambudweep.


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## kumarkumar1867

Ticker said:


> *The number killed in the Mahabharata War*
> 
> April 9, 2009 &#8212; Hariprasad
> 
> My previous article on the Akshouhini gave rise to some interesting discussions in the comments section. Sri Chiraan rightly pointed out that the actual number of people who participated in the war had to be much more. It was, after all, the &#8220;Maha&#8221;bharata war!
> 
> I recalled reading in the Tatparya Nirnaya that the number 18 Akshouhinis was just the core army. The actual army *had* to be much bigger! So I got down to doing some research on this and yes, the Bhaarata has captured this detail as well. We find details of the actual fatalities (and survivors) in the war in the Stri Parva. The Pandavas, along with Krishna, come to meet Dhritharashtra and Gandhari. At one point, Dhritharashtra asks Yudhishthira if he knows the number of people dead and number of survivors. The numbers that Dharma reveals are
> 
> &#8226;	*Fatalities : 1 billion, 660 million and 20,000!!!*
> &#8226;	*Survivors : 240,165*
> 
> *Today&#8217;s world population is 6 billion, 700 odd million. Even in today&#8217;s terms, about 25% of the population got wiped out in the war!
> *
> 
> This piece of information is in the Stri Parva (11th Parva) of the Mahabharata. I reproduce below the original shloka(s) and Ganguly&#8217;s translation of the same.
> 
> dashayutanam ayutam sahasrani cha vimshatihi |
> kotyah shashtishcha shat chaiva ye asmin rajamrudhe hataha ||
> alakshyaanam tu veeraanam sahasraani chaturdasha |
> dasha chaanyani rajendra shataam shashtis cha pancha cha ||
> 
> &#8220;*One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle*. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165&#8243;
> 
> Truly, the war was a Maha Yuddha!
> 
> The number killed in the Mahabharata War « Anandatirtha Prathishtana



*
Again Hypocrisy believing subset of few things for own convinience & decalring the superset or complete story totally absurd.*

Good to see you believe in Numbers of War Victims in MAHABHARTA, 
If something figures in mahabharata are credible to you I guess you should not hesitate to believe other things mentioned in Mahabharat too... 

Like World is created by Brahma, Controlled by Vishnu & Destructed by Shiva.World is nothing but a smapurna swaroop of Vasudev Kutumban. concept like Karma, Purna Janam,etc

IF YOU BELIEVE IN FIGURES STATED THEN YOU SHOULD BELIEVE OTHER THINGS STATED IN MAHABHARATA TOO.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan has inherited a Indo - Muslim culture 
One has to understand that culture is constantly changing and it diversifies by inner human interactions between communites

Examples: 

Wedding ceremonies example 
a) The mehendi rasam etc , the dancing the jewelry etc the odd barat rituals etc 
all are sorta indian inspired from my visual comparison , the `Shanhai - flute` at weddings etc

b) Music has also been influenced etc and many Muslim musicians have learned the basics of 
music from interaction with Indian culture 

c) The Shub-e-rat (lights celebrations) to me look very inspired from light festivals in indian culture
and its only celerbated to my knowledge in Pakisatan most other muslims donot have these 
celebrations to a scale how its done in Pakistan 
1) Lights
2) Lamps and oil 

Its all too Indian from comparison wise almost like influenced by it 

d) Kite festivals etc its been done thru generations 

e) Sports similarites however we do see some differences emerging but it will take 100-200 years 
for complete differences

Meanwhile India itself is a melting pot of cultures and people

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## kumarkumar1867

Myth_buster_1 said:


> You either live under a rock or simply cant think from yourself. As we speak, minorities are persecuted by Hindus for leaving Hindusim.



Well forget minorities in India, did you care about fellow muslims in Pakistan before pointing it?? Should I blame Islam for all bloodshed happening in quetta & Karachi. NO I wont blame religion for mess created by radicals a*sholes.

Secterian or Communal violence or Prosecuation of specific community is either a political strategy or job of a*sholes. NO verse or book in Hinduism allows killing of innocents. 



> Thats because Hindusim is a wrong religion which can not prove any other religion wrong.



NO COMMENTS ON THIS.
You need a BOW man ... You are far more intelligent than Mohd.Ali Jinnah, Iqbal Sahab, Badshah Akbar, and many more historic muslims who are dumb by your definition. 



> Your argument is not even worth of an atom. Islam does emphasizes on proving other religion wrong however their is not a single verse which commands to convert people by sword. expecting a out of context verse in your rants.



Tell this to some who is unaware of Aurangazeb, Timur, Ghori, Ghaznavi, etc. May be he will believe you.



> Exactly, thats the reason why im glad I do not worship human and animal gods.
> 
> Im am glad Im not a Hindu



Being Hindu means being a good human, seeing God in everything around you be it animals, plants or objects , seeing your AATMA (soul) as a particle of PARMAATMA (God). It also means *respecting faith, religion, mother of every human being including your enemy.*

World has now understood the importance of MOTHER NATURE, FLOURA & FAUNA ON EARTH, IMPORTANCE OF ANIMALS IN ECOSYSTEM, Hindus understood it thousands of years before & tried to preserve the nature by worshipping plants, animals, seeing God in everything around You.

Dont be glad much about you not being hindu, even if you want to be YOU DONT QUALIFY to be.
Any good & kind human (irrespective of his faith) can be a hindu but some fatas*holes can neither be muslims or hindus.


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## somebozo

It is other way around, much of the Indian culture is adoped from Mogual, Central Asian, Persian and a number of other influences.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

And I almost forgot being Sentimental and very emotional one of the shared aspects


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## kumarkumar1867

ishaqzaade said:


> Mohiniyattam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oddisi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sattriya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> other indian dance
> 
> Gaudiya Nritya-West bengal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andhra Natyam and Vilasini Natyam-Andhra pradesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kerala Natanam




Bhainso ke aage been mat bajaao... Ye log sirf bollywood aur Star plus ko hi indian culture samajhte hai... rehne do inhe waise hi.


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## ajtr

Gigawatt said:


> Most visible similarity is the dress culture.


South ia adapting to punjabi salwar kameez so does that make southern culture similar to pakistani culture?Or for that matter of fact sarees being worn in south and in pakistan................

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## ajtr

free thinker said:


> Lots of things, for example, both Bharatnatyam and Kathak are inspired by ancient mythical stories.
> The themes of the ballads are similar although the narration maybe different!
> There are similarities in sculptures as can be seen in various ancient temples.
> Plenty more...


I found south indian temples and sculptures depiction quite difeerent from their northern counter parts as for religion defining the culture through epic s then i must say pakistanis are not wrong when they say that their culture is arab culture.

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## kumarkumar1867

RazPaK said:


> These Indians are the people that say our culture is the same, when If I fired my rifle, they would start crying and trashing the country as unsafe. I really don't get it.



No offences but for unknown reasons your post reminded me of LAALTOPI ZAID HAMEED with Rifle.




Gigawatt said:


> Mujra originated in India from Kathak dance form but Pakistanis copied it making it vulgar.



Yes, they have Pakistani version of History, Pakistani Version of Islam, Pakistani version of bolywood movies, then why not Pakistani version of MUJRA man?? 

They mess with everything that comes to them copy or alter it and get proud with final product or their version and chest thumping that the version created by them is better than original one.

They claim about better music when most of music raaga, todi, saptsur, musical instruments they use are totally invented by indians mostly hindus & originated from our lands.


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## kumarkumar1867

somebozo said:


> It is other way around, much of the Indian culture is adoped from Mogual, Central Asian, Persian and a number of other influences.



Are you talking about a hindu culture or Indian culture??

Hindu culture relates only to Hindus, while Indian cultures has shades of hindu, portugese, islamic, buddhist, jain, n many more cultures.

Yes Our Indian culture is influenced by Moghul, Central Asian, Persian & no. of the other stuff but all these cultures collectively could not influence it more than HINDU culture. Hindu here means the culture of this land, culture of the people born & buried in this soil.

Language, religion, rituals forms culture.isnt it??

Hindi,Hinduism, Our rituals are indigenous & unique, it was followed by our ancestors 1000s years ago & followed in same form by us. Other influences are like added spices or flavours to the main dish.

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## Peshwa

jellodragon said:


> 1. Israeli have Christianity culture if you didnt notice... Look at Jerusalem.
> 2. what istanbul people claim is not our problem
> *3. WE can calim IVC as its our culture, and it was in our region, you cannot because you are dravidian. goodbye*



Ya bloody Pindu...
How about naming one aspect of similarity between your supposed "Pakistani Culture" and that of the IVC...

Hell screw that...why not just start by listing the aspects of "culture" of IVC...

People of the subcontinent weren't even aware of IVC's existence until an Englishman dug up the excavations to bring this to light...
Now you're claiming that your people share a culture with a lost civilization which your people weren't even aware of?!!!

Im starting to think that stupidity is contagious and Pakistan is on the brink of an epidemic.....You might just be patient zero...Your cheerleader RazPak Victim#1..LOL!

PS: I would start by mastering the understanding of your own culture before commenting on Israelis...Christians and other ethnic groups

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## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> 1. Israeli have Christianity culture if you didnt notice... Look at Jerusalem.
> 2. what istanbul people claim is not our problem
> 3. WE can calim IVC as its our culture, and it was in our region, you cannot because you are dravidian. goodbye



Which part of the IVC is part of contemporary Pakistani culture? Can you name ONE aspect? Just one will do.

Do you know what Dravidian means?

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## EzioAltaïr

Joe Shearer said:


> Which part of the IVC is part of contemporary Pakistani culture? Can you name ONE aspect? Just one will do.
> 
> *Do you know what Dravidian means?*



No he doesn't know what it means. Hasn't he made it terribly obvious already?


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## Peshwa

somebozo said:


> It is other way around, much of the Indian culture is adoped from Mogual, Central Asian, Persian and a number of other influences.



Certain parts of India have been influenced by the above....north India maybe..

But as one moves to the North East, South West and Deep South the influence wanes significantly..

So generalizing to "much of Indian culture" is wrong...

I do not believe there is a homogenous Indian culture (even Hindus from various parts of India have differences in their style of worship, celebration, marriages etc)...

In my my opinion, India is a group of 30 different odd races each with a unique culture, language, style of dressing etc..
What binds us is common history/historical experiences...in some cases religion and of course an innate sense of being part of the Indian nationality


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## Peshwa

Joe Shearer said:


> Which part of the IVC is part of contemporary Pakistani culture? Can you name ONE aspect? Just one will do.
> 
> Do you know what Dravidian means?



Mr. Shearer...

Frankly speaking there is no known cure for ignorance and stupidity..If you can change that you deserve an award...

You have a daunting task ahead of you...and I see you've been at it for days/months now


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## Joe Shearer

EzioAltaïr;3455269 said:


> No he doesn't know what it means. Hasn't he made it terribly obvious already?





Peshwa said:


> Mr. Shearer...
> 
> Frankly speaking there is no known cure for ignorance and stupidity..If you can change that you deserve an award...
> 
> You have a daunting task ahead of you...and I see you've been at it for days/months now



I am puzzled.

This has been explained so many times already. Some ox-like members insist on returning to the erroneous explanation again and again. Maybe it is to be irritating; perhaps some schoolboys think it hugely amusing. But is this person a schoolboy? Surely not? Then why the mind-numbing stupid replies?


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## INDIC

ajtr said:


> South ia adapting to punjabi salwar kameez so does that make southern culture similar to pakistani culture?Or for that matter of fact sarees being worn in south and in pakistan................



In Pakistan sari is considered as a symbol of nudity whereas in India and Bangladesh people don't have such narrow-mindedness.


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## yyetttt

India is mostly Dravidians people who migrated north.. These Dravidians from Australia claim the IVC which without, South Asia would be unexplored... Loser Dravidians!!



Peshwa said:


> Ya bloody Pindu...
> How about naming one aspect of similarity between your supposed "Pakistani Culture" and that of the IVC...
> 
> Hell screw that...why not just start by listing the aspects of "culture" of IVC...
> 
> People of the subcontinent weren't even aware of IVC's existence until an Englishman dug up the excavations to bring this to light...
> Now you're claiming that your people share a culture with a lost civilization which your people weren't even aware of?!!!
> 
> Im starting to think that stupidity is contagious and Pakistan is on the brink of an epidemic.....You might just be patient zero...Your cheerleader RazPak Victim#1..LOL!
> 
> PS: I would start by mastering the understanding of your own culture before commenting on Israelis...Christians and other ethnic groups



IVC was always there... It kept on carrying on... You are saying after the old IVC ended, no one lived near the Indus River? No buddy, thats where everyone wanted to be... Now hush Dravidians and sticks with yor Ganges


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## INDIC

jellodragon said:


> India is mostly Dravidians people who migrated north.. These Dravidians from Australia claim the IVC which without, South Asia would be unexplored... Loser Dravidians!!



I believe you are also an imported product in Pakistan from India.


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## yyetttt

Gigawatt said:


> In Pakistan sari is considered as a symbol of nudity whereas in India and Bangladesh people don't have such narrow-mindedness.



You shouldnt care what we wear... Anytime you see a burqa in India you label the person behind it a ISI agent... Why so much hate against Indian Muslims???? 



Gigawatt said:


> I believe you are also an imported product in Pakistan from India.



There was no India before 1947

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## indushek

Oscar said:


> Didn't do so.. for a very long time.. infact brought in a lot of converts who were tired of their daughters being burnt right after their old husbands died. The confrontation is only what has been taught in text books.. based on stories of invaders whose motivations were clearly much closer to those of Alexander than that of spreading the religion.



You seem to be mixing two social evils together child marriage and sati.

While it (sati) was done for different reasons over various periods of time and ultimately became a dirty tool in hands of men/ women / families or community leaders etc; it was done so that women who suffer the most in war are not frisked away to harems or the beds of invaders. Particularly Rajputana is famous as they mostly fought against Muslim Invaders. How it spread isn't much of a rocket science.

Regarding Child marriage also the Muslim Invasions were very helpful. Again the suffering woman instead of bringing dishonor to the father's house name by being raped or taken away was sent away early to the household where she would be either safe or bring ignominy to their house name.


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## KRAIT

jellodragon said:


> You shouldnt care what we wear... Anytime you see a burqa in India you label the person behind it a ISI agent... Why so much hate against Indian Muslims????


Anyone behind burkha is considered ISI agent........Craziest thing ever read on this forum.

We don't hate Muslims. At least I don't. I think Muslims are important part of our society. Our Muslims considere themselves Indian Muslim rather than Muslims who lives in India. For them India comes first, religion second and that's what the reason is for their respect.


----------



## yyetttt

KRAIT said:


> Anyone behind burkha is considered ISI agent........Craziest thing ever read on this forum.
> 
> We don't hate Muslims. At least I don't. I think Muslims are important part of our society. Our Muslims considere themselves Indian Muslim rather than Muslims who lives in India. For them India comes first, religion second and that's what the reason is for their respect.



ISI agent is a word for Indian Muslims spoken by Indian Hindus.... 

Alot of your buddies hate Muslims... You hate Muslims tooo but you are afraid to say it out... And ask any Muslim which comes first, nationality or religion and they will give you the answer


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## ALOK31

jellodragon said:


> India is mostly Dravidians people who migrated north.. These Dravidians from Australia claim the IVC which without, South Asia would be unexplored... Loser Dravidians!!


topic is not about draviden aryan .don't try to divert the topic .and by the way ivc is dead civilization .and no one know they were draviden or aryan .



kumarkumar1867 said:


> No offences but for unknown reasons your post reminded me of LAALTOPI ZAID HAMEED with Rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they have Pakistani version of History, Pakistani Version of Islam, Pakistani version of bolywood movies, then why not Pakistani version of MUJRA man??
> 
> They mess with everything that comes to them copy or alter it and get proud with final product or their version and chest thumping that the version created by them is better than original one.
> 
> They claim about better music when most of music raaga, todi, saptsur, musical instruments they use are totally invented by indians mostly hindus & originated from our lands.


ya i know see their funny marriages copies of hindu marriages .


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## nForce

jellodragon said:


> ISI agent is a word for Indian Muslims spoken by Indian Hindus....
> 
> Alot of your buddies hate Muslims... You hate Muslims tooo but you are afraid to say it out... And ask any Muslim which comes first, nationality or religion and they will give you the answer



assuming that you are a Pakistani Muslim,let me ask you,which one comes first for you,Pakistan, or Islam?


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## ALOK31

jellodragon said:


> There was no India before 1947


good joke .

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## KRAIT

jellodragon said:


> ISI agent is a word for Indian Muslims spoken by Indian Hindus....
> 
> Alot of your buddies hate Muslims... You hate Muslims tooo but you are afraid to say it out... And ask any Muslim which comes first, nationality or religion and they will give you the answer


No need to ask, their actions speak louder than words. Didn't they help in building weapons and technology against a Islamic nation. For them this country means more than anything.

I don't know which buddies you are talking about ? ISI and Indian Muslims...hahaha....most of the crimes and troubles are caused by Hindus just as caused by Muslims. 

I know you don't like to see anything about Indian Muslims.

Read about APJ Kalam. We made him president because of his service to the nation and respect he earned. One can never imagine a minority like Hindu or Christian as Pakistan's PM or President as your constitution doesn't allow it.


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## Ticker

ALOK31 said:


> good joke .



Whats the joke in it. 

Before 1947, there was an old India which included the current India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. 

The current India has nothing to do with old India. 

Where is the joke.

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## yyetttt

ALOK31 said:


> topic is not about draviden aryan .don't try to divert the topic .and by the way ivc is dead civilization .and no one know they were draviden or aryan .



IVC is not dead... As long as people keep living around the Indus it will never be dead



nForce said:


> assuming that you are a Pakistani Muslim,let me ask you,which one comes first for you,Pakistan, or Islam?



Pakistan..,


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## nForce

jellodragon said:


> IVC is not dead... As long as people keep living around the Indus it will never be dead
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan..,



same goes for the Indian Muslims.........because we are Indian first..


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## ALOK31

jellodragon said:


> IVC is not dead... As long as people keep living around the Indus it will never be dead


i think Joe Shearer alraedy explained on their previous post .



Joe Shearer said:


> Which part of the IVC is part of contemporary Pakistani culture? Can you name ONE aspect? Just one will do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what Dravidian means?

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## kumarkumar1867

jellodragon said:


> India is mostly Dravidians people who migrated north.. These Dravidians from Australia claim the IVC which without, South Asia would be unexplored... Loser Dravidians!!
> 
> 
> 
> IVC was always there... It kept on carrying on... You are saying after the old IVC ended, no one lived near the Indus River? No buddy, thats where everyone wanted to be... Now hush Dravidians and sticks with yor Ganges



Lol ...so when are you written book on it??

Atleast Pakistan needs a BS research thesis to cure their identity crises.

So according to you after IVC civilisation nobody lived in harappa-mohenjo daaro areas & indus valley for 3000-4000 years till MBQ invaded Raja Dahir. You people are bearer of culture IVC & also descendants of MBQ but you skip the people the civilisations which was in between the transition period. How intelligent of you.

First study what word DRAVIDA means .Google about Bruhai tribe in balochistan, origin of lahore, kashmir,karachi,etc

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## ALOK31

Ticker said:


> Whats the joke in it.
> 
> Before 1947, there was an old India which included the current India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
> 
> The current India has nothing to do with old India.
> 
> Where is the joke.


i don't want to explain this topic again so please ignore this topic .


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## Ticker

KRAIT said:


> No need to ask, their actions speak louder than words. Didn't they help in building weapons and technology against a Islamic nation. For them this country means more than anything.
> 
> I don't know which buddies you are talking about ? ISI and Indian Muslims...hahaha....most of the crimes and troubles are caused by Hindus just as caused by Muslims.
> 
> I know you don't like to see anything about Indian Muslims.
> 
> *Read about APJ Kalam*. We made him president because of his service to the nation and respect he earned. One can never imagine a minority like Hindu or Christian as Pakistan's PM or President as your constitution doesn't allow it.



Highlighting of such aspects has now become a joke - we have a Sikh PM, a Hindu President, a Muslim Vice President, a Christian _____ Minister and Air Chief, a Sikh COAS, and we are an integrated and united country and an Italian President of Congress etc etc. 

I think a new approach to explain the above may be explored. 

In Pakistan, our constitution restricts who all to be the PM, President etc, probably to avoid the jigsaw-puzzled joke one may have to narrate time and time again.

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## free thinker

ajtr said:


> I found south indian temples and sculptures depiction quite difeerent from their northern counter parts as for religion defining the culture through epic s then i must say pakistanis are not wrong when they say that their culture is arab culture.



o is that what they are saying??
I thought they were saying their culture is Indian culture as they are indus bank dwellers and we are stealing it and exporting it back to them which they find threatening and intimidating.
I thought we were the ones who were saying that they following arab culture although they are indus bank dwellers.

Anyway, what i was trying to highlight was the similarity in dances and sculpture/architecture.
if you can find it in you, you can visit temples in the south, maharashtra, orissa, and dehli and you will know what i mean.

Also there are similarities in Indian classical music with all the ragas and talas being similar.


----------



## yyetttt

KRAIT said:


> No need to ask, their actions speak louder than words. Didn't they help in building weapons and technology against a Islamic nation. For them this country means more than anything.
> 
> I don't know which buddies you are talking about ? ISI and Indian Muslims...hahaha....most of the crimes and troubles are caused by Hindus just as caused by Muslims.
> 
> I know you don't like to see anything about Indian Muslims.
> 
> Read about APJ Kalam. We made him president because of his service to the nation and respect he earned. One can never imagine a minority like Hindu or Christian as Pakistan's PM or President as your constitution doesn't allow it.



They helped building weapons to protect India... Not always against Pakistan.. 

Alot of your buddies here and in Mumbai hate Muslims (Vinod2070, Bhairava, etc), and its common slang to call a Muslim a ISI agent in India. 

Well Hindu or Christian cannot become president as Pakistan is a Islamic nation..

And you never had a Muslim prime minister in India, but had every other... Pathetic secular nation


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## ALOK31

Ticker said:


> Highlighting of such aspects has now become a joke - we have a Sikh PM, a Hindu President, a Muslim Vice President, a Christian _____ Minister and Air Chief, a Sikh COAS, and we are an integrated and united country and an Italian President of Congress etc etc.
> 
> I think a new approach to explain the above may be explored.
> 
> In Pakistan, our constitution restricts who all to be the PM, President etc, probably to avoid the jigsaw-puzzled joke one may have to narrate time and time again.



i don't think ur any democratic govt is complete their tenure.


----------



## yyetttt

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol ...so when are you written book on it??
> 
> Atleast Pakistan needs a BS research thesis to cure their identity crises.
> 
> So according to you after IVC civilisation nobody lived in harappa-mohenjo daaro areas & indus valley for 3000-4000 years till MBQ invaded Raja Dahir. You people are bearer of culture IVC & also descendants of MBQ but you skip the people the civilisations which was in between the transition period. How intelligent of you.
> 
> First study what word DRAVIDA means .Google about Bruhai tribe in balochistan, origin of lahore, kashmir,karachi,etc



No, I said, alot of people lived near Indus River... These people got converted, doesnt mean they arent ancestors and bearers of the IVC... IVC is still going on in the name of Pakistan


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## KRAIT

jellodragon said:


> They helped building weapons to protect India... Not always against Pakistan..
> 
> Alot of your buddies here and in Mumbai hate Muslims (Vinod2070, Bhairava, etc), and its common slang to call a Muslim a ISI agent in India.
> 
> Well Hindu or Christian cannot become president as Pakistan is a Islamic nation..
> 
> And you never had a Muslim prime minister in India, but had every other... Pathetic secular nation


The Supreme Commander of our Armed forces is The President. The Vice-President today is also Muslim.


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## yyetttt

KRAIT said:


> The Supreme Commander of our Armed forces is The President. The Vice-President today is also Muslim.



President in India is nothing but a ceremonial figure... You know that very well, don't you?


----------



## free thinker

jellodragon said:


> Well Hindu or Christian cannot become president as Pakistan is a Islamic nation..
> 
> And you never had a Muslim prime minister in India, but had every other... Pathetic secular nation



hmmm...
In order to impress you of our secular credentials and by deliberately making a muslim the prime minister of India, we would act in and nonsecular way...I hope you get the subtle difference.
Expanding your logic, until we have a prime minister from every religious community, we cannot claim to be secular, irrespective of what our constitution says.
Pardon my language, but that is retarded.
Also to prove your narrow minded agenda, you have ignored all the muslim presidents that we have had.


----------



## yyetttt

free thinker said:


> hmmm...
> In order to impress you of our secular credentials and by deliberately making a muslim the prime minister of India, we would act in and nonsecular way...I hope you get the subtle difference.
> Expanding your logic, until we have a prime minister from every religious community, we cannot claim to be secular, irrespective of what our constitution says.
> Pardon my language, but that is retarded.
> Also to prove your narrow minded agenda, you have ignored all the muslim presidents that we have had.



Im not saying that, but isnt it kind of odd that a Skh and Christian can be PM, but not Muslims? Even though Muslims are a bigger minority than Sikhs and Christians?

And im sure you know that president is just a ceremonial figure in India... Probably set up by BJP to make India seem secular and fair to all minorities


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## ALOK31

free thinker said:


> hmmm...
> In order to impress you of our secular credentials and by deliberately making a muslim the prime minister of India, we would act in and nonsecular way...I hope you get the subtle difference.
> Expanding your logic, until we have a prime minister from every religious community, we cannot claim to be secular, irrespective of what our constitution says.
> Pardon my language, but that is retarded.
> Also to prove your narrow minded agenda, you have ignored all the muslim presidents that we have had.


bro y are u try to become so secular truth is truth .many muslims claim they are muslim first than indian .u know in india muslims have highest crime rate,very high birth rate and very low litteracy rate (equal to pak).


----------



## nForce

jellodragon said:


> They helped building weapons to protect India... Not always against Pakistan..
> 
> Alot of your buddies here and in Mumbai hate Muslims (Vinod2070, Bhairava, etc), and its common slang to call a Muslim a ISI agent in India.
> 
> Well Hindu or Christian cannot become president as Pakistan is a Islamic nation..
> 
> And you never had a Muslim prime minister in India, but had every other... Pathetic secular nation




we dont make someone prime minister in India,just to showcase that we are secular.Its a democratic process.Probably you will not understand that. Afterall you come from a land that historically had governments either brought down by military coup(4 in total in a brief history of about 65 years) or ruled by the elites of the country. People in your country have not experienced proper democracy even for once since its inception.You should be among the last people on Earth to tell what a democracy should do,especially when that democracy is THE largest in the World.


----------



## kumarkumar1867

jellodragon said:


> You shouldnt care what we wear... Anytime you see a burqa in India you label the person behind it a ISI agent... Why so much hate against Indian Muslims????



Lol...clearly shows your lack of knowledge about India.

If you visit rural areas & muslim dominated cities like hyderabad,ahmedabad,aurangabad,kanpur,lucknow, and many more you wont open your mouth saying this $hit about our burqa wearing muslim sisters.

Just curious to know more about your hallucinations & dellusions ...may I ask a question??

Since We have more masjids than any country on this planet do you fantasize that common indian think masjids are ISI centres??





> There was no India before 1947



Yes Alexender the Great, Samrat Ashok , Babar, Akbar & their historian didnt knew & understand what you invented while sitting on PDF with your little brain.


----------



## nForce

jellodragon said:


> President in India is nothing but a ceremonial figure... You know that very well, don't you?



same as that of Pakistan,I hope you know that as well,as the constitution of both the countries were based on same models.

Now,as you are assuming that the position is ceremonial and hence insignificant,I just dont understand why would the Pakistanis deny even an insignificant position to be held by a non-Muslim?


----------



## PakistaniPacifist

ALOK31 said:


> ya i know see their funny marriages copies of hindu marriages .



That's news to me, I never knew Hindus go to a mosque before the main function and listen to a sermon, males and females sit separate halls, the female bride has her hair and limbs covered etc. Thanks for that piece of information.

Indians on here truly do suffer from an inferiority complex. It's sad to see. You would have thought that they would have sorted these issues post-1947. Looks like some things don't change on here or in the real world, and they still have a peculiar habit of worshipping their neighbours to the west.


----------



## free thinker

jellodragon said:


> Im not saying that, but isnt it kind of odd that a Skh and Christian can be PM, but not Muslims? Even though Muslims are a bigger minority than Sikhs and Christians?
> 
> And im sure you know that president is just a ceremonial figure in India... Probably set up by BJP to make India seem secular and fair to all minorities



Yes!!!
BJP came up with the post of president! They did at the time of Independence, before BJP itself was created so that no one would suspect!!
wow dude...you continue to dazzle me with your knowledge about my country and how secular and democratic countries function in general.
Manmohan singh was appointed the prime minister of India because of his strong bureaucratic credentials.
I do not know which prime minister was christian.

let me tell you this. If a forward thinking, patriotic capitalist muslim with solid development credentials stood for elections... i would vote for him.
Will you do the same for a hindu candidate irrespective of what your constitution says.
Forget our countries, your answer will determine who among us is secular.

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## yyetttt

kumarkumar1867 said:


> Lol...clearly shows your lack of knowledge about India.
> 
> If you visit rural areas & muslim dominated cities like hyderabad,ahmedabad,aurangabad,kanpur,lucknow, and many more you wont open your mouth saying this $hit about our burqa wearing muslim sisters.
> 
> Just curious to know more about your hallucinations & dellusions ...may I ask a question??
> 
> Since We have more masjids than any country on this planet do you fantasize that common indian think masjids are ISI centres??



Obviously, you dont want to talk about them, when you're the minority 

Probably common Indians think that islam should have never come to india... Ive even seen some Indian posts on PDF callling for a trade of Hindus of Pakistan exchange for Muslims of India... When you say stuff like this,it make you wonders..







kumarkumar1867 said:


> Yes Alexender the Great, Samrat Ashok , Babar, Akbar & their historian didnt knew & understand what you invented while sitting on PDF with your little brain.



Im talking about modern India.. There was no Republic of India before 1947


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## free thinker

ALOK31 said:


> bro y are u try to become so secular truth is truth .many muslims claim they are muslim first than indian .u know in india muslims have highest crime rate,very high birth rate and very low litteracy rate (equal to pak).



Aah but many muslims are not like that.
I know...i have met them...they are my friends.
Lets not judge people based on their birth rate and literacy level. A couple of generations back, my family had high birth rate and minimal education.


----------



## yyetttt

free thinker said:


> Yes!!!
> BJP came up with the post of president! They did at the time of Independence, before BJP itself was created so that no one would suspect!!
> wow dude...you continue to dazzle me with your knowledge about my country and how secular and democratic countries function in general.
> Manmohan singh was appointed the prime minister of India because of his strong bureaucratic credentials.
> I do not know which prime minister was christian.
> 
> let me tell you this. If a forward thinking, patriotic capitalist muslim with solid development credentials stood for elections... i would vote for him.
> Will you do the same for a hindu candidate irrespective of what your constitution says.
> Forget our countries, your answer will determine who among us is secular.



SO you are saying there is no Muslim, out of 150 million Muslims in India, that can qualify for the post of PM


----------



## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> India is mostly Dravidians people who migrated north.. These Dravidians from Australia claim the IVC which without, South Asia would be unexplored... Loser Dravidians!!



My poor stupid *Jellodragon*, Dravidian is not a people, it is a group of languages. Like Brahui, which still exists in Baluchistan. 

From approximately 10,000 BC onwards, India has been genetically identical. No vast migrations happened, south to north, north to south. The earlier Mundari, austric languages were overlaid by Dravidian languages, and the whole of India may have spoken this combination of Dravidian over austric. When Indo-Aryan languages were used, their influence covered northern India within two or three millennia. That's two to three thousand years. Not an overnight shift. 

Nobody shifted around, populations stayed where they were. Small crusts of the uppermost layers of society changed, some of them consisting of the common descendants of people who brought in the new languages, some of them children of those who were there already. The numbers were small, there was no big change in genetic character, just as there was none earlier. 

By the way, you ignorant loser, Dravidian speech probably came in from the middle east, not from Australia. 



> IVC was always there... It kept on carrying on... You are saying after the old IVC ended, no one lived near the Indus River? No buddy, thats where everyone wanted to be... Now hush Dravidians and sticks with yor Ganges



O scholar, the IVC collapsed and vanished from human memory around 1300 BC. There were no large cities there which succeeded, none, not for several centuries more, when first Lahore, then Peshawar, then Takshashila and Sialkot were established, and then much later Karachi. I am not sure about Multan and Quetta. 

People lived near the Indus River but without a shred of the culture of the IVC. No cities, no drains, baths,harbors, no administrative buildings, no foreign trade, no sculpture, no seals, NOTHING.

Find out for yourself. Ask an educated friend, since you are obviously not educated yourself.

And also learn from your educated friend that although the Indo-Aryan speaking people may have been in numbers too small to displace any older people, the Scythians, then the Pahlava, then the Kushans, then the Ephthalite Huns swept in and overran the Indus Valley, with their herds of oxen and horses, their families, their tribal belongings, their steppe culture, everything. Whole provinces changed their names, Arachosia, for instance, to Sakasthan, the land of the Sakas, to today's Seisthan. So whatever tiny fragments of the original settlers may have survived between 1300 BC and 100 AD, 1400 years, would have been well and truly swept away.

Try to learn about these things before you open your mouth next time.

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## Ticker

EzioAltaïr;3455269 said:


> No he doesn't know what it means. Hasn't he made it terribly obvious already?



Do you know which part of contemporary or current India represents IVC culture.


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## free thinker

jellodragon said:


> Im talking about modern India.. There was no Republic of India before 1947



There was no republic and there was no constitution before 1947.
but in many ancient Indian texts...India has been described as stretching from himalayas to the north, sea to the west south and east.
Fits the description of subcontinent today.
But never mind this, I cannot convince you as long as you dont want to be convinced.


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## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> You shouldnt care what we wear... Anytime you see a burqa in India you label the person behind it a ISI agent... Why so much hate against Indian Muslims????
> 
> 
> 
> There was no India before 1947



Wrong again. 

Read the Indian Independence Act. It says clearly that British India, a crown colony, was being given independence, and it consisted of the listed territories and provinces, except those listed as Pakistan, which was separated from British India and also given independence.

Where do you get this nonsense from?


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## free thinker

jellodragon said:


> SO you are saying there is no Muslim, out of 150 million Muslims in India, that can qualify for the post of PM



of course there can be. I do not know who he is.
If you do please let me know.

List of members of the 15th Lok Sabha (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also your reply proves you are not secular in your thinking.
And you are simply trying to malign others who are secular so that you can bring them down to your level in order to feel better about yourself.
At least the people who pretend to be secular know that not being so is wrong.


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## kumarkumar1867

ALOK31 said:


> i don't think ur any democratic govt is complete their tenure.



I guess Zardari will.Pakistani people can bear only Zardari type democracy not better than that.I see no chances of Imran Khan or Nawaz to match zardari in this feat.


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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> My poor stupid *Jellodragon*, Dravidian is not a people, it is a group of languages. Like Brahui, which still exists in Baluchistan.
> 
> From approximately 10,000 BC onwards, India has been genetically identical. No vast migrations happened, south to north, north to south. The earlier Mundari, austric languages were overlaid by Dravidian languages, and the whole of India may have spoken this combination of Dravidian over austric. When Indo-Aryan languages were used, their influence covered northern India within two or three millennia. That's two to three thousand years. Not an overnight shift.
> 
> Nobody shifted around, populations stayed where they were. Small crusts of the uppermost layers of society changed, some of them consisting of the common descendants of people who brought in the new languages, some of them children of those who were there already. The numbers were small, there was no big change in genetic character, just as there was none earlier.



Sir,

There are many who may not agree with the above description, that no major movement of peoples took place during the end of IVC as it existed then. For one, how do you presume the Brahui language is linked to the Dravidian, considering the huge distance between the two locations and the era that we talk about. Yes, trade was taking place even between the IVC and rest of india and even Mesopotamia and the IVC seals were located in present day UAE. However, the language linkages may only happen when there is some movement of peoples between two places is taking place, even if takes a millennium or more.

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## yyetttt

free thinker said:


> of course there can be. I do not know who he is.
> If you do please let me know.
> 
> List of members of the 15th Lok Sabha (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also your reply proves you are not secular in your thinking.
> And you are simply trying to malign others who are secular so that you can bring them down to your level in order to feel better about yourself.
> At least the people who pretend to be secular know that not being so is wrong.



Your post answers this:

"let me tell you this. If a forward thinking, patriotic capitalist muslim with solid development credentials stood for elections... i would vote for him.
Will you do the same for a hindu candidate irrespective of what your constitution says.
Forget our countries, your answer will determine who among us is secular."


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> Whats the joke in it.
> 
> Before 1947, there was an old India which included the current India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
> 
> The current India has nothing to do with old India.
> 
> Where is the joke.



When you yourself say that there was an old India which included the current India, how can you say with a straight face that the current India has nothing to do with the old India? It wad the legal successor; it took over the old India's UN seat, it retained the same administrative system that was brought in by the 1935 Act, the judicial system was the same, the civil service was the same, the police service was the same, the educational system, the schools, colleges and universities were the same, the hospitals and nursing homes were the same, the Railways, the postal services were the same, the ports and harbours were the same, the canals, dams and power stations were the same, the military was the same....what, in your opinion,changed? 

What are you trying to say? You cannot cover your own nakedness by pretending that your neighbour has lost his clothes.



jellodragon said:


> IVC is not dead... As long as people keep living around the Indus it will never be dead
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan..,



Good.

What element of the IVC did you inherit?


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## free thinker

jellodragon said:


> Your post answers this:
> 
> "let me tell you this. If a forward thinking, patriotic capitalist muslim with solid development credentials stood for elections... i would vote for him.
> Will you do the same for a hindu candidate irrespective of what your constitution says.
> Forget our countries, your answer will determine who among us is secular."



R i g h t.....

How about a straight answer for once?
without actually answering my question...you are saying that i have myself answered my question to you in another one of my posts??

Your confusion about your culture and ancestry reflects in your failure to comprehend the most basic conversations. that too online when you can read and reread if you dont get something the first time.


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> Highlighting of such aspects has now become a joke - we have a Sikh PM, a Hindu President, a Muslim Vice President, a Christian _____ Minister and Air Chief, a Sikh COAS, and we are an integrated and united country and an Italian President of Congress etc etc.
> 
> I think a new approach to explain the above may be explored.
> 
> In Pakistan, our constitution restricts who all to be the PM, President etc, probably to avoid the jigsaw-puzzled joke one may have to narrate time and time again.



Don't you feel ashamed to reply like this? Just curious. Can you be so dishonest and justify it on the grounds that it helps you in your war with Internet Hindus to distort the truth and strike dishonest postures? The others are bone stupid. You are not. What do you hope to achieve by these tactics? Credibility? In whose eyes?

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## indushek

This nautanki will never end here will it

somebody says oh god Pakistan is being invaded culturally lets be careful

start the culture difference or similarity, then the tu tu main main

then the IVC brigade with no idea what it is says don't worry Indian culture is actually Pakistani!!!

Look at the present and future guys, India is being eaten slowly by pseudo secular corrupt Congress and Pakistan is suffering with Mr. 10% on one side and the crazy Taliban on the other side.


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## INDIC

Joe Sir, Jellodragon is a Gujarati Bohra, he is just trolling.


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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> When you yourself say that there was an old India which included the current India, how can you say with a straight face that the current India has nothing to do with the old India? It wad the legal successor; it took over the old India's UN seat, it retained the same administrative system that was brought in by the 1935 Act, the judicial system was the same, the civil service was the same, the police service was the same, the educational system, the schools, colleges and universities were the same, the hospitals and nursing homes were the same, the Railways, the postal services were the same, the ports and harbours were the same, the canals, dams and power stations were the same, the military was the same....what, in your opinion,changed?
> 
> What are you trying to say? You cannot cover your own nakedness by pretending that your neighbour has lost his clothes.
> 
> 
> 
> Good.
> 
> What element of the IVC did you inherit?



Look, please do not mix the international governance order and history in the manner that you are suggesting. 1935 was an administrative act, promulgated by Mountbatten whose inclinations were more clearer in the proceedings up to 1947. 

I do not agree with your contention. The known history of old India emanated from what is now Pakistan. You can claim some historical aspects because a lot of people who existed in old India remained in new India. You can not take away the fact that IVC and its original peoples are Pakistanis and a limited portion of India. I have already answered to your contention in another post, that as the IVC ended, its people some how died with it. Have a heart Sir, where did you come out with this unacceptable theory.


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## Joe Shearer

jellodragon said:


> Im not saying that, but isnt it kind of odd that a Skh and Christian can be PM, but not Muslims? Even though Muslims are a bigger minority than Sikhs and Christians?
> 
> And im sure you know that president is just a ceremonial figure in India... Probably set up by BJP to make India seem secular and fair to all minorities



It is true that you are the most ignorant person I have met on PDF, but it is also true that you smash your own records for being stupid and ill-informed with effortless ease. Except Kalam, *all* the other Muslim presidents, Zakir Hussain, Mohammed Hidayatullah, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, were non-BJP appointees.

There has been no Muslim prime minister because it is the most sought after political job in India. People do not get it because of their religion; they get it because the political situation dictates that they do. Like Manmohan Singh got it.

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## KRAIT

Joe Shearer said:


> It is true that you are the most ignorant person I have met on PDF, but it is also true that you smash your own records for being stupid and ill-informed with effortless ease. Except Kalam, *all* the other Muslim presidents, Zakir Hussain, Mohammed Hidayatullah, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, were non-BJP appointees.


Joe sir, I had to admit that you posted one of the sophisticated insult on PDF. 

Respect *_/|\_*

This guy is way too confused.

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> Sir,
> 
> There are many who may not agree with the above description, that no major movement of peoples took place during the end of IVC as it existed then. For one, how do you presume the Brahui language is linked to the Dravidian, considering the huge distance between the two locations and the era that we talk about. Yes, trade was taking place even between the IVC and rest of india and even Mesopotamia and the IVC seals were located in present day UAE. However, the language linkages may only happen when there is some movement of peoples between two places is taking place, even if takes a millennium or more.




My dear Ticker,

I am genuinely distressed that you should lend yourself to these hair-pulling contests. You should also consider the facts and consult references before comment. 

Brahui links to Dravidian language family is a linguistic determination, not a political one. Neither I nor any other Indian had anything to do with it, I can assure you. 

The distances are irrelevant; it seems that you have not read the copious information in the notes that I submit on historical or proto-historical topics. The whole of peninsular India spoke Dravidian languages before the superior (linguistically speaking) Indo-Aryan languages came in, sometime around 1500 BC.

So everybody around the present pockets of Brahui are thought to have spoken some version of a Dravidian language. Traces of these languages are still detectable today, through the IVC and the Gangetic plain. The language went to people, people did not go to the language.

It was not due to trade, then, or to the movement of populations, but due to the movement of languages. Consider the spread of Persian in mediaeval India and you will understand. It was adopted far beyond its number of native speakers and their own immediate environment, it became the administrative language for northern India. Yet if you check the numbers of ethnic Persians, they may not have been more than a fraction of the Persian-speaking, reading and writing population. 

I request you to play a positive role in today's milieu. The members from both the Internet Hindu community and the Internet Muslims include some very stupid people, and all rational people should educate them and keep them under control.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> Don't you feel ashamed to reply like this? Just curious. Can you be so dishonest and justify it on the grounds that it helps you in your war with Internet Hindus to distort the truth and strike dishonest postures? The others are bone stupid. You are not. What do you hope to achieve by these tactics? Credibility? In whose eyes?



Why are you getting flustered about a comment I made in a context and you were not addressed. Relax.


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## Don Jaguar

Mein tu kafi deer pehlay hi chup ho gaya tha lakin ye loog abhi tak lagay hain.

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> Look, please do not mix the international governance order and history in the manner that you are suggesting. 1935 was an administrative act, promulgated by Mountbatten whose inclinations were more clearer in the proceedings up to 1947.
> 
> I do not agree with your contention. The known history of old India emanated from what is now Pakistan. You can claim some historical aspects because a lot of people who existed in old India remained in new India. You can not take away the fact that IVC and its original peoples are Pakistanis and a limited portion of India. I have already answered to your contention in another post, that as the IVC ended, its people some how died with it. Have a heart Sir, where did you come out with this unacceptable theory.



I have already, on another occasion, listed the historical, political, religious, social, artistic, architectural and military aspects of India before 1947 which had no origination in the Indus. The known history of old India did not emanate from what is now Pakistan, as that elaborate but incomplete presentation showed. 

Regarding the IVC, how could it die so completely that its existing people maintained not even a shred of remembrance or contact with it? What is the value of your claim of an ongoing link considering that the remains were found by a Bengali babu working for the British, and that the British taught us every thing we know today about the IVC? If the people living around it had a link, they should be able to display at least a shred of a connection? They should have informed the British that their ancient ruins lay below? They had no idea what was under the debris. 

So how do you link the culture and the people? Just physical proximity?



Ticker said:


> Why are you getting flustered about a comment I made in a context and you were not addressed. Relax.




Flustered? No, saddened.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> *It is true that you are the most ignorant person I have met on PDF, but it is also true that you smash your own records for being stupid and ill-informed with effortless ease.* Except Kalam, *all* the other Muslim presidents, Zakir Hussain, Mohammed Hidayatullah, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, were non-BJP appointees.
> 
> There has been no Muslim prime minister because it is the most sought after political job in India. People do not get it because of their religion; they get it because the political situation dictates that they do. Like Manmohan Singh got it.



Sir, 

And then you get flustered on some of my comments, when I have to respond to certain gentlemen. 

And on many such occasions I don't use the Victorian sophistication which may escape certain cells meant to activate understanding.


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## RazPaK

Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?


Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.

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## Don Jaguar

RazPaK said:


> Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?
> 
> 
> *Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy*. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.



We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?

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## RazPaK

Don Jaguar said:


> We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?



Because the thread won't end, If we don't.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> My dear Ticker,
> 
> I am genuinely distressed that you should lend yourself to these hair-pulling contests. You should also consider the facts and consult references before comment.
> 
> Brahui links to Dravidian language family is a linguistic determination, not a political one. Neither I nor any other Indian had anything to do with it, I can assure you.
> 
> The distances are irrelevant; it seems that you have not read the copious information in the notes that I submit on historical or proto-historical topics. The whole of peninsular India spoke Dravidian languages before the superior (linguistically speaking) Indo-Aryan languages came in, sometime around 1500 BC.
> 
> So everybody around the present pockets of Brahui are thought to have spoken some version of a Dravidian language. Traces of these languages are still detectable today, through the IVC and the Gangetic plain. The language went to people, people did not go to the language.
> 
> It was not due to trade, then, or to the movement of populations, but due to the movement of languages. Consider the spread of Persian in mediaeval India and you will understand. It was adopted far beyond its number of native speakers and their own immediate environment, it became the administrative language for northern India. Yet if you check the numbers of ethnic Persians, they may not have been more than a fraction of the Persian-speaking, reading and writing population.
> 
> I request you to play a positive role in today's milieu. The members from both the Internet Hindu community and the Internet Muslims include some very stupid people, and all rational people should educate them and keep them under control.



I am sorry I distress you. Please forgive me. I respect you for your abilities and the vision you project. You are a rare intellectual. 

I am different though. I am what I am, and I like to interject frustration amongst the lot on certain occasions - probably because I can. I know it does not sound good on almost all the occasions, but I do want to have fun at times. Let me. 

I though still have some difference of opinion with regard to the linguistics theory that you profess. How and why did Persian language spread as it did and the spread of other languages. A lot has been written about this and is indeed very interesting. But that for some later time. 

I am again sorry if I distress you Sir. But I am not going to even attempt to change. Please let me remain what I am - may be an outlaw of sorts in your jargon.

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## INDIC

Don Jaguar said:


> We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?



You once told your ancestors were from Uttar Pradesh.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> I have already, on another occasion, listed the historical, political, religious, social, artistic, architectural and military aspects of India before 1947 which had no origination in the Indus. The known history of old India did not emanate from what is now Pakistan, as that elaborate but incomplete presentation showed.
> 
> Regarding the IVC, how could it die so completely that its existing people maintained not even a shred of remembrance or contact with it? What is the value of your claim of an ongoing link considering that the remains were found by a Bengali babu working for the British, and that the British taught us every thing we know today about the IVC? If the people living around it had a link, they should be able to display at least a shred of a connection? They should have informed the British that their ancient ruins lay below? They had no idea what was under the debris.
> 
> So how do you link the culture and the people? Just physical proximity?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flustered? No, saddened.



I am sorry you are saddened. Please don't be. I still have to learn a lot from you. On occasions I will challenge you for the sake of challenge, to learn more. And on other occasions, I will contest your outlay because I may feel that I am on the right. 

I posted a reply to your earlier statement regarding no IVC linkages with the current times. There are some very renowned Pakistani archeologists who have written about these aspects. I will try to get the links, if these are available or the books or papers they have written on the subject. 

Here if I may, I will re-post some of my comments which I posted earlier. 

To say that Harappan people just vanished out of thin air and no trace of them has been left is factually wrong. Their legacy also remains in many forms even to this day. 

After 1900 BC there were no longer references to Meluhha in Mesopotamian writings, and no Indus seals are found in Mesopotamia after that date. Whatever the reasons of their diminishing trade &#8211; may it be changing course of river, drought, Aryan invasion, decease, earthquakes or whatever, the fact remains that their cities shrank in the second millennium BC, yes, but people still lived in places like Harappa long after that. 

The continuing prosperity of the bigger cities, like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, may have made them grow too large and unwieldy to administer, and so groups may have split off into smaller settlements. But those settlements were held together by their common culture. Perhaps the dispersal was a way of providing flexibility to deal with the reasons I explained above. 

Some of the aspects that we can still trace their legacy to are the commerce routes they developed. Traders from the highlands of Pakistan&#8217;s Baluchistan and northern Afghanistan brought in copper, tin and lapis lazuli. The Makran and southern coasts of Pakistan provided decorative shells. Timber was floated down the rivers from the Himalayas and gold from southern Central Asia. Skilled Harappan artisans and specialized craftsmen turned such raw materials into useful and beautiful products for regional distribution and&#8212;as finds elsewhere have shown&#8212;for export by land and sea to Mesopotamia, Persia and Central Asia.

&#8220;The southern states controlled the sea trade, just as Karachi does today. Ships from Meluhha [the Mesopotamian name for the Harappan nation] regularly sailed from Lothal near modern-day Karachi, Pakistan for the ports of Babylon.&#8221; And they evidently made stops all along the way, as I mentioned earlier that Indus River seals have been found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The modern city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of the Harappans&#8217; main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar south into rugged tribal territory, through the modern towns of Pakistan&#8217;s Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Pakistan&#8217;s Sulaiman Mountains, and on down across the Gomal Plain to the early Harappan site of Rehman Dheri, where an important excavation was conducted from 1976 to 1980. 

I agree with you that Hindu Aryan culture was distinctly different than the culture of the Indus Valley Civilization, which was not Hindu and yes were not Muslim either. 

The IVC was mostly restricted to the valley of the Indus&#8212;however at the tail end of the civilization some of it dispersed into areas beyond the IVC. 

The 3 Major IVC cities are all located in Pakistan. One in Western Pakistan, one in South and the last one approx in central Pakistan. 

Current day India didn&#8217;t exist during IVC, and their religion had nothing to do with IVC, and major IVC settlements are not even located in India. However, Indians still refer to India as the &#8220;Home of Indus Valley Civilization&#8221; which is indeed surprising. 

Indus Valley Civilization&#8217;s legacy is linked to Pakistan and it cannot be denied, because various peoples after their decline ruled or invaded the area. 

Therefore, we the people of Pakistan rightly claim ourselves to be the scions of and holders of Indus Valley Civilization.

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## Storm Force

We live in YEAR 2012 & NOT year 3000 BC 

Cultures religions traditions EVOVLE & MATURE over time.

IVC (indus valley civilastion) is a western term/reference

99% OF THE GL;OBAL POPLULATION has no idea what IVC means 

99% of the world live in YEAR 2012.

to them pakistan is 

1. located in the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT
2. Has the INDIAN OCEAN on its shores
3. Was divided only 65 years from GREATER india

Pakistanis have been a seperate entity for 65 years of a 3000 year old IVC . IE less than 2% of the histrical timeframe..

IT SEEMS TO ME THE WORD INDIA surrounds PAKISTAN geopgraphically, historically, tradiotionaly etc.

ITS WILL BE HARD TO CREATE YOUR OWN PAKISTANI CULTURE which the GLOBAL WORLD CAN RELATE TOO as INDIA. INDIANS carry too much clout TODAY & THROUGHT TIME./HISTORY


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## Ticker

Storm Force said:


> We live in YEAR 2012 & NOT year 3000 BC
> 
> Cultures religions traditions EVOVLE & MATURE over time.
> 
> IVC (indus valley civilastion) is a western term/reference
> 
> 99% OF THE GL;OBAL POPLULATION has no idea what IVC means
> 
> 99% of the world live in YEAR 2012.
> 
> to them pakistan is
> 
> 1. located in the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT
> 2. Has the INDIAN OCEAN on its shores
> 3. Was divided only 65 years from GREATER india
> 
> Pakistanis have been a seperate entity for 65 years of a 3000 year old IVC . IE less than 2% of the histrical timeframe..
> 
> IT SEEMS TO ME THE WORD INDIA surrounds PAKISTAN geopgraphically, historically, tradiotionaly etc.
> 
> ITS WILL BE HARD TO CREATE YOUR OWN PAKISTANI CULTURE which the GLOBAL WORLD CAN RELATE TOO as INDIA. INDIANS carry too much clout TODAY & THROUGHT TIME./HISTORY



These clouts come and go in a nation's history. 

You were nobody's some years ago. 

Geopolitically you are still weaker than Pakistan despite your growing and now receding economy. 

The Indian sub continent that you refer to is now called South Asia and only current Indians call it Indian sub continent and feel great about it. 

Indian instead of surrounding Pakistan in any capacity is surrounded on three sides by powerful and nuclear armed China and Pakistan. The only place you can move out to is the sea. You can go and pea in it for all we care. 

India in its current form came in to being only 65 years ago from British India and before that Muslim India and before that was divided in to hundreds of small or slightly bigger principalities. Before that, it was more than 4000 years ago that the great Mauriyan Empire ruled it. And you you are clinging to that 4000 year old entity and some much smaller entities thereafter, till Muslims came and constructed what was subsequently called India. 

What global world do you relate to. The one which comes to you for payment of pittance to seek services of your poor slave labour. For half a billion souls living under poverty line. 

What are you talking about. First learn to relate yourself to the current India itself and then talk about how big India was 4000 years ago. 

Currently, the current India just shines like a mirage and nothing more.

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## Rafi

Pakistani culture is unique with many flavors.

Plus - "Peccavi" -

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Joe Sir, Jellodragon is a Gujarati Bohra, he is just trolling.



Oye shakaiti. Har waqt shakaitein hi lagata rehta hai.

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## Desert Fox

*How much of Pakistani culture is Indian? *

A: 0% of it.

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## Don Jaguar

Gigawatt said:


> You once told your ancestors were from Uttar Pradesh.



In 7th century yes in 15th century they came to punjab.

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## Don Jaguar

Desert Fox said:


> *How much of Pakistani culture is Indian? *
> 
> A: 0% of it.



O jaani tera intezar ker raha tha mein.

You once proved how present day Pakistani culture is modernised version of ancient indus valley civilization with pictures, Please if you remember it post it again.


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## INDIC

Don Jaguar said:


> In 7th century yes in 15th century they came to punjab.



So, you too don't have claim on IVC!


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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> So, you too don't have claim on IVC!



What claim do you have on IVC.


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## Don Jaguar

Gigawatt said:


> So, you too don't have claim on IVC!



Yes i have.


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## Dubious

Oh GOD! IVC IVC IVC! Dudes! grow up! It's large chunk is in Pakistan...WELL RECOGNIZED all over the world...End of story...Whose it was is not that important nor shoul it matter! 

No Muslim shows off how much of INDIA they had! 

PLUS it is HISTORY! Why bring it up...Can ANY of you change anything by claiming it as yours?

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## Sashan

Mods - it is time to add IVC to the list of banned topics.

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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> Because the thread won't end, If we don't.



I don't know what others are up to, but for me, this thread is worthwhile only because I get a chance to drill some holes in your head and into *Ticker's* head and get some rational thinking in. Rather concentrate on a couple of worthwhile people than on an unwashed mass.


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## Myth_buster_1

Don Jaguar said:


> O jaani tera intezar ker raha tha mein.
> 
> You once proved how present day Pakistani culture is modernised version of ancient indus valley civilization with pictures, Please if you remember it post it again.



What the hell is modernized version of ancient Indus valley? We are Muslims and our culture should not be associated with stone worshipers.

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## Zarvan

Myth_buster_1 said:


> What the hell is modernized version of ancient Indus valley? We are Muslims and our culture should not be associated with stone worshipers.


After this no Muslim can say more just perfect


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## Ticker

Myth_buster_1 said:


> What the hell is modernized version of ancient Indus valley? We are Muslims and our culture should not be associated with stone worshipers.



Sir,

Could you please tell me what were Muslims before they accepted the divine faith and accepted the light of truth. 

They were not Muslims, before they became Muslims. 

I am very lucky that I was born a Muslim. Are you by any chance suggesting that those who converted after accepting the divine truth were or are somehow lesser Muslims. 

Please do not confuse local culture with religion. 

For example, a local culture in Old India was that the caps were worn and heads were covered when visiting the elders or those who were respected. It is till being practiced in many places. Contrarily in UK and many Muslim countries also, the headgear is removed as a mark of respect. This is cultural difference. 

Such cultural practices at times become a norm and may also be reflected in religion in many places. In some places and countries, Muslims always wear caps and cover their heads while entering the mosques, in other places and countries however, this practice is not there - all are Muslims though. This divergence is aptly visible during the Haj and also when you go to perform Umra. This is due to cultural difference also. 

My ancestors may not have received the message sent by the God Almighty through His 124,000 prophets for whatever reason, but the fact that I became a Muslim at a certain stage and accepted the true faith, amply negated the follies committed by my ancestors. I pray to God Almighty to forgive my ancestors for not following the true faith. 

I am the original inhabitant of this area. I have a history of thousands of years and I am also very proud of my heritage. I should be, because I feel that my ancestors kept my heritage alive and prepared me to see the truth presented by the God Almighty and for me to become a Muslim. 

That is why, I still am the scion of Indus Valley Civilization and also hold the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization, which once was Hindu, Buddhist, but is now proudly Muslim. Due to the effort put in by numerous ancestors of ours, this civilization has come true and has completed the cycle for most of us. I am proud to be the inhabitant of, scion of and holder of the cradle of this civilization. 

And my name is Pakistan.

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## DarkPrince

ye thread abhi bhi chal rahi hai

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## Ticker

Myth_buster_1 said:


> What the hell is modernized version of ancient Indus valley? We are Muslims and our culture should not be associated with* stone worshipers*.



Interestingly, the religion of IVC has not been ascertained as yet. Even the language they used has not been deciphered as yet. 

But they were our ancestors and I am still here as the scion.

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## Armstrong

Ticker said:


> Sir,
> 
> Could you please tell me what were Muslims before they accepted the divine faith and accepted the light of truth.
> 
> They were not Muslims, before they became Muslims.
> 
> I am very lucky that I was born a Muslim. Are you by any chance suggesting that those who converted after accepting the divine truth were or are somehow lesser Muslims.
> 
> Please do not confuse local culture with religion.
> 
> For example, a local culture in Old India was that the caps were worn and heads were covered when visiting the elders or those who were respected. It is till being practiced in many places. Contrarily in UK and many Muslim countries also, the headgear is removed as a mark of respect. This is cultural difference.
> 
> Such cultural practices at times become a norm and may also be reflected in religion in many places. In some places and countries, Muslims always wear caps and cover their heads while entering the mosques, in other places and countries however, this practice is not there - all are Muslims though. This divergence is aptly visible during the Haj and also when you go to perform Umra. This is due to cultural difference also.
> 
> My ancestors may not have received the message sent by the God Almighty through His 124,000 prophets for whatever reason, but the fact that I became a Muslim at a certain stage and accepted the true faith, amply negated the follies committed by my ancestors. I pray to God Almighty to forgive my ancestors for not following the true faith.
> 
> I am the original inhabitant of this area. I have a history of thousands of years and I am also very proud of my heritage. I should be, because I feel that my ancestors kept my heritage alive and prepared me to see the truth presented by the God Almighty and for me to become a Muslim.
> 
> That is why, I still am the scion of Indus Valley Civilization and also hold the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization, which once was Hindu, Buddhist, but is now proudly Muslim. Due to the effort put in by numerous ancestors of ours, this civilization has come true and has completed the cycle for most of us. I am proud to be the inhabitant of, scion of and holder of the cradle of this civilization.
> 
> *And my name is Pakistan.*



Ulllu ke rullaiii ga kiyaa itnaa emotional piece likkh kar ! 

But well said...proud of you, young man !

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Interestingly, the religion of IVC has not been ascertained as yet. Even the language they used has not been deciphered as yet.
> 
> *But they were our ancestors* and I am still here as the scion.



Not your ancestors, Pashtuns arrived very lately in the subcontinent.

About the language part many words from the Mesopotamia on IVC has been recovered which finds striking similarity with South Indian languages. Like Sesame oil was known as 'ellu/illu' in Sumerian which was imported from IVC, in South Indian languages same is called 'el/ellu'.


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## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> Not your ancestors, Pashtuns arrived very lately in the subcontinent.
> 
> About the language part many words from the Mesopotamia on IVC has been recovered which finds striking similarity with South Indian languages. Like Sesame oil was known as 'ellu/illu' in Sumerian which was imported from IVC, in South Indian languages same is called 'el/ellu'.



tum logon ko alaf be ki samaj he 

ticker is always rite......

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Not your ancestors, Pashtuns arrived very lately in the subcontinent.
> 
> About the language part *many words from the Mesopotamia on IVC has been recovered* which finds striking similarity with South Indian languages. Like Sesame oil was known as 'ellu/illu' in Sumerian which was imported from IVC, in South Indian languages same is called 'el/ellu'.




Have you heard of a language called Brahui, currently spoken by the largest tribe in Baluchistan Province of Pakistan. 

What the ancient Dravidian spoke also have linkages to Brahui. 

I know where my ancestors came from. I am the scion of IVC. 

You can lump it.

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## Armstrong

Ticker said:


> Have you heard of a language called Brahui, currently spoken by the largest tribe in Baluchistan Province of Pakistan.
> 
> What the ancient Dravidian spoke also have linkages to Brahui.
> 
> I know where my ancestors came from. I am the scion of IVC.
> 
> You can lump it.



Wait did he call you a Pathan ? 



pk_baloch said:


> tum logon ko alaf be ki samaj he
> 
> ticker is always rite......



Oh my sister from Balochistan...how are you ? 

Oyee achaa tum Baloch ho ya Barahui ?

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## pk_baloch

Ticker said:


> Have you heard of a language called Brahui, currently spoken by the largest tribe in Baluchistan Province of Pakistan.
> 
> What the ancient Dravidian spoke also have linkages to Brahui.
> 
> I know where my ancestors came from. I am the scion of IVC.
> 
> You can lump it.



aur Ivc wale hindu naee khelate the ...the hindu name was given in A.D nd muslim had imposed this name hindu ...indians are so confused for their identity .......


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Have you heard of a language called Brahui, currently spoken by the largest tribe in Baluchistan Province of Pakistan.
> 
> What the ancient Dravidian spoke also have linkages to Brahui.
> 
> I know where my ancestors came from. I am the scion of IVC.
> 
> You can lump it.



That's the bizarre claim coming from you. Pakistanis claim they are noway related to Dravidian people but for claiming IVC you got instantly related to Dravidian people.


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## Ticker

Armstrong said:


> Wait did he call you a Pathan ?



He doesn't know that I am a Sindhi, a Balochi, a Punjabi, a Pathan, a Kashmiri - because I am a Pakistani.

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## pk_baloch

Armstrong said:


> Wait did he call you a Pathan ?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my sister from Balochistan...how are you ?
> 
> Oyee achaa tum Baloch ho ya Barahui ?




my mother is pathan ,im baloch ,language is siraiki 

baqee tumare sehri agle ramzan mein pakkiii

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## Armstrong

Ticker said:


> He doesn't know that I am a Sindhi, a Balochi, a Punjabi, a Pathan, a Kashmiri - because I am a Pakistani.



Kiyaaa tu Butttt nahin hai ? 

I'm a Pakistani too & thats how I'd like to be addressed. Period !


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## Federer

pk_baloch said:


> aur Ivc wale hindu naee khelate the ...the hindu name was given in A.D nd muslim had imposed this name hindu ...indians are so confused for their identity .......



You are not even a Part of Indic Race.

There exists a Fault Line in Pakistan.

Indic People - Punjabi, Sindhi, Kashmiris (Occupied) and Muhajirs (Pakistan was made for these People)

Non-Indic People who were a War Booty in 1893 War - Pathans, Balochis and Ashrafs.

The First set of People can lay claim to every part of Indic civilization (As Long they consider themselves Indian).

The Second Set has no claim. They can bug off to Afghan, Iran or Arab History.

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> He doesn't know that I am a Sindhi, a Balochi, a Punjabi, a Pathan, a Kashmiri - because I am a Pakistani.



But Pakistanis "seena thok ke" claim that they are noway related to Dravidians.

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## Armstrong

pk_baloch said:


> my mother is pathan ,im baloch ,language is siraiki
> 
> baqee tumare sehri agle ramzan mein pakkiii



Kitni ghalaat baaat hai ! Is your Mom's blood any less red or thicker than your dads ? You're both a Baloch & a Pathan....taaatuuuu ! 

Aur siraiki - Ahaa...its a beautiful language ! I was listening to a Siraiki song the other day that went to the tune of 'Aaakho saikyooo allah saiiinee merei sabraaan nu waaal laaavai' - Very beautiful especially after my friend told me what it meant ! 

Aur abbb ramazan guzaaar giyaaa hai !  I want a treat now...when your project is completed !

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> That's the bizarre claim coming from you. Pakistanis claim they are noway related to Dravidian people but for claiming IVC you got instantly related to Dravidian people.



You need to educate yourself. 

Most of what you currently claim is because of my civilization. 

I am the scion of this civilization. 

Who are you guys - just followers of a religion - Hinduism. 

And then you say that Pakistan was created because of Islam. 

Infact, it is you people who fought for a Hindu India and falsely called it a secular socialist state. It is neither secular, because it professes Hinduism and nor is it socialist because it follows capitalism and keep over 500 million Indians under the poverty line. 

Identify yourself - who are you.

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## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> That's the bizarre claim coming from you. Pakistanis claim they are noway related to Dravidian people but for claiming IVC you got instantly related to Dravidian people.




mujhe pata he ye kis prophEt and nation se the ...hamen prophets and their nations parhaeen gaee hein G .......
CHASMA PHEN LO ....................................

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Infact, it is you people who fought for a Hindu India and falsely called it a secular socialist state. It is neither secular, because it professes Hinduism and nor is it socialist because it follows capitalism and keep over 500 million Indians under the poverty line.



I know why you said that, because Secular India always causes identity crisis with Pakistan.


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## pk_baloch

Gigawatt said:


> I know why you said that, because Secular India always causes identity crisis with Pakistan.




PAKISTAN SECULAR TO NAEE HAAN INDIA ISLMIC BANE GA ,CHASMA PHENO .........................

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> But Pakistanis "seena thok ke" claim that they are noway related to Dravidians.



Nope. 

There is no Dravidian civilization. Dravidians may have linkages to our civilization. 

We are the emanation from where this civilization originated from. 

Rishtay dariyan ki baat kon raha hai.


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## pk_baloch

Armstrong said:


> Kitni ghalaat baaat hai ! Is your Mom's blood any less red or thicker than your dads ? You're both a Baloch & a Pathan....taaatuuuu !
> 
> Aur siraiki - Ahaa...its a beautiful language ! I was listening to a Siraiki song the other day that went to the tune of 'Aaakho saikyooo allah saiiinee merei sabraaan nu waaal laaavai' - Very beautiful especially after my friend told me what it meant !
> 
> Aur abbb ramazan guzaaar giyaaa hai !  I want a treat now...when your project is completed !




SEHRI TUMARE POHANH JAEE GE ....HAMARE LOG HEN LAHORE MEIN ......AUR MEIN TO TEEN BAR ACHUCKE HUN.......

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## INDIC

Armstrong said:


> Kiyaaa tu Butttt nahin hai ?
> 
> I'm a Pakistani too & thats how I'd like to be addressed. Period !



Dude you can use tt instead of ttt now.

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## pk_baloch

Armstrong said:


> Kitni ghalaat baaat hai ! Is your Mom's blood any less red or thicker than your dads ? You're both a Baloch & a Pathan....taaatuuuu !
> 
> Aur siraiki - Ahaa...its a beautiful language ! I was listening to a Siraiki song the other day that went to the tune of 'Aaakho saikyooo allah saiiinee merei sabraaan nu waaal laaavai' - Very beautiful especially after my friend told me what it meant !
> 
> Aur abbb ramazan guzaaar giyaaa hai !  I want a treat now...when your project is completed !



MERE FATHER KI COMPANY KI BRANCH HE LAHORE MEIN.....MEIN GUEST HOUSE MEIN REHNE ATY HUN .......

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Myth_buster_1 said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> From Weddings to Religious events such as Eid celebration Indian cultural dominates in Pakistani Society! Bollywood is perhaps the most discussed topic after politics and personal issues and here we are claiming to have "indigenous" culture? Indian (so called) Muslim celebrities are looked upon as ideals of the society and for almost everyone Sharuk khan Slman Khan are their kings. Im sorry but our society is proving itself to be failures which is losing its identity to Indian and western culture and here we are declaring them our number 1 enemies? These days its a norm to have a premarital relationship and if you dont then you are abnormal which also proves that we are subliminally pursing Indian lifestyle.



Mainstream pakistani culture is punjabi and urdu, it is indic.....while peripheral cultures (pashtun, baloch) are not indian.

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## pk_baloch

Armstrong said:


> Kitni ghalaat baaat hai ! Is your Mom's blood any less red or thicker than your dads ? You're both a Baloch & a Pathan....taaatuuuu !
> 
> Aur siraiki - Ahaa...its a beautiful language ! I was listening to a Siraiki song the other day that went to the tune of 'Aaakho saikyooo allah saiiinee merei sabraaan nu waaal laaavai' - Very beautiful especially after my friend told me what it meant !
> 
> Aur abbb ramazan guzaaar giyaaa hai !  I want a treat now...when your project is completed !



ACHA BHAE HUM JATY HE THORA KAAMM HE .....

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Nope.
> 
> There is no Dravidian civilization. *Dravidians may have linkages to our civilization.*
> 
> We are the emanation from where this civilization originated from.
> 
> Rishtay dariyan ki baat kon raha hai.



What is special about the words 'may have'.


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## Ticker

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Mainstream pakistani culture is punjabi and urdu, it is indic.....while peripheral cultures (pashtun, baloch) are not indian.



Kindly explain what is indic. 

India, historically is a contemporary and a rather recent name given to South Asia and that too not by Indians themselves.


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## Armstrong

Gigawatt said:


> Dude you can use tt instead of ttt now.



Sweet mother of Jesus Christ ! Yes...yes...thank you Webby !

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> What is special about the words 'may have'.



Khud hi samajh lo, meray se ziyada akalmand ho.


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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Mainstream pakistani culture is punjabi and urdu, it is indic.....while peripheral cultures (pashtun, baloch) are not indian.



Rora, what about Sindhis ? 

By the way I'm not sure if there is anything called as 'mainstream Pakistani culture' ! If you move to Balochistan they have their own culture, the Pukhtoons with their Pashtunwali, the Punjabis with their own even the Sarikis & the Hindkowans have a different culture then ours, the Sindhis definitely have that ! And yet because we've interacted with each other for so long & been living in each others traditionally thought off areas, we've have certain cultural practices which overlap with each others.

And I will never forgive you for bringing Bilor to power ! Kameenei ne mujheee 4 ghantiii railway station pe wait karvayaaa thaaa !

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## MilSpec

the entire thread summarizes the fear of pakistan and it's culture being overshadowed by India. There is enough culture in pakistan, no need to worry, where is rafi sir and his 1000 year rant!

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Khud hi samajh lo, meray se ziyada akalmand ho.


kaliyug ke brahamans ka yehi haal hai ata jata kuch nahi bas hawaai baatein karte hain.

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## Armstrong

sandy_3126 said:


> the entire thread summarizes the fear of pakistan and it's culture being overshadowed by India. There is enough culture in pakistan, no need to worry, where is rafi *sir* and his 1000 year rant!



They revoked his Knighthood, Dame Sandy !

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Kindly explain what is indic.
> 
> India, historically is a contemporary and a rather recent name given to South Asia and that too not by Indians themselves.



Punjabi culture is transnational spreading into India and Pakistan, Muhajirs are North-Indians.


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## ajtr

sandy_3126 said:


> the entire thread summarizes the fear of pakistan and it's culture being overshadowed by India. There is enough culture in pakistan, no need to worry, where is rafi sir and his 1000 year rant!


Actually every region of indian subcontinent has their own thousands of year evolving unique culture.Pakistan's problem is not the culture where it has its own different shares of culture in different region.pakistan's main justjoo is to escape from the shadows of india which its unable to do.more it trie more it get amalgamated into indian shadow.

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## INDIC

Armstrong said:


> Rora, what about Sindhis ?



I have heard Sindhi, it is easy to understand a large part of it but Pashto and Baloch are extremely different.

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## ajtr

Gigawatt said:


> I have heard Sindhi, it is easy to understand a large part of it but Pashto and Baloch are extremely different.


ritik roshan will teach you balochi if you want..........


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> kaliyug ke brahamans ka yehi haal hai ata jata kuch nahi bas hawaai baatein karte hain.




Ye kaliyog kya hota hai


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## Developereo

How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?

It's a trick question.

Much of Pakistani culture is Indian (= belonging to Indus Valley surrounds of the subcontinent), which does not mean that it is Indian (= belonging to Republic of India).

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabi culture is transnational spreading into India and Pakistan, Muhajirs are North-Indians.



All are Pakistanis.

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## notsuperstitious

sandy_3126 said:


> the entire thread summarizes the fear of pakistan and it's culture being overshadowed by India. There is enough culture in pakistan, no need to worry, where is rafi sir and his 1000 year rant!



Of course there is enough culture in Pakistan, but obviously many like to imagine it to be something else than what it is.

For them, Pakistan = Not India.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Ye kaliyog kya hota hai




The ages see a gradual decline of dharma, wisdom, knowledge, intellectual capability, life span, emotional and physical strength.
*Satya Yuga:*- Virtue reigns supreme. Human stature was 21 cubits. Average human lifespan was 100,000 years.
*Treta Yuga:* - There was 3 quarter virtue & 1 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 14 cubits. Average human lifespan was 10,000 years.(*Ram* was born in this yuga)
*Dwapar Yuga:* - There was 1 half virtue & 1 half sin. Normal human stature was 7 cubits. Average human lifespan was 1000 years.(krishna was born in this yug)
*Kali Yuga:* - There was 1 quarter virtue & 3 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 3.5 cubits. Average human lifespan will be 100 years. Towards the end of the Yuga this will come down to 20 years.(at present running )

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## Joe Shearer

Developereo said:


> How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?
> 
> It's a trick question.
> 
> Much of Pakistani culture is Indian (= belonging to Indus Valley surrounds of the subcontinent), which does not mean that it is Indian (= belonging to Republic of India).




And where were you all this bleeding time?

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> All are Pakistanis.



What about the craze for Lakhnavi or Awadhi Tehzeeb.


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## ALOK31

ishaqzaade said:


> Bharat natyam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kochipudi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kathak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manipuri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> katkhakali



bro our dress is also very different than pak

pakistan

salwar kameez 







hijab







burqa


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## Developereo

Joe Shearer said:


> And where were you all this bleeding time?



Been spending too much time here; trying to curb the addiction...

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Actually every region of indian subcontinent has their own thousands of year evolving unique culture.Pakistan's problem is not the culture where it has its own different shares of culture in different region.pakistan's main justjoo is to escape from the shadows of india which its unable to do.more it trie more it get amalgamated into indian shadow.




It infact is the other way around. 

It is Indians who are trying hard to de-link themselves from Pakistan, however they themselves don't want to also. 

They even tell the Americans, don't do equal=equal with Pakistan. Strab Talbot talks about it in his book. 

Indians are surprisingly saying that their civilization is IVC, yet don't want that Pakistan should become its scion and hold its cradle. 

Arrey, sab kuch mera istimal kartay ho, aur naam apna. Bhag jao idhar say.


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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> And where were you all this bleeding time?


Deserts of Arabia.

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## ALOK31

indian women

saree-gujrati style







saree-bangali






ghagra choli-rajasthan






utterakhand

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## MilSpec

ajtr said:


> Actually every region of indian subcontinent has their own thousands of year evolving unique culture.Pakistan's problem is not the culture where it has its own different shares of culture in different region.pakistan's main justjoo is to escape from the shadows of india which its unable to do.more it trie more it get amalgamated into indian shadow.



Sucessfull societies have dynamic cultures with ability to absorb trends in foriegn cultures best suited and desired by the people. Urban Indians gave up thier dhotis and kurtas to make way for jeans and shirts, our entertainment changed with heavy influence from hollywood, still maintaining the space for shastriya sangeet and religious rituals (which have mostly transcended into cultural events).

We sucessfully absorbed food fabric and cultural aspects originating from persia into modern day indian culture, whereas it seems a few dandiya sequences and wedding songs threatens the very existence of pakistani culture (as the OP says it).

Pakistani members (as in the first page) who are even will to shoot dead the artists who collaberate with indians need to realize that, pakistanis dont learn thier culture from the television or the silverscreen, they learn it from thier parents, from thier schools. There is no need to panic if a few pakistanis like to dance to a bollywood number, your pakistaniyat is still intact.

And the ones who love to harp on IVC on every thread, other than a few ruins, what part of IVC Mehergarh culture has survived in pakistan?

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## Zarvan

Ticker said:


> Sir,
> 
> Could you please tell me what were Muslims before they accepted the divine faith and accepted the light of truth.
> 
> They were not Muslims, before they became Muslims.
> 
> I am very lucky that I was born a Muslim. Are you by any chance suggesting that those who converted after accepting the divine truth were or are somehow lesser Muslims.
> 
> Please do not confuse local culture with religion.
> 
> For example, a local culture in Old India was that the caps were worn and heads were covered when visiting the elders or those who were respected. It is till being practiced in many places. Contrarily in UK and many Muslim countries also, the headgear is removed as a mark of respect. This is cultural difference.
> 
> Such cultural practices at times become a norm and may also be reflected in religion in many places. In some places and countries, Muslims always wear caps and cover their heads while entering the mosques, in other places and countries however, this practice is not there - all are Muslims though. This divergence is aptly visible during the Haj and also when you go to perform Umra. This is due to cultural difference also.
> 
> My ancestors may not have received the message sent by the God Almighty through His 124,000 prophets for whatever reason, but the fact that I became a Muslim at a certain stage and accepted the true faith, amply negated the follies committed by my ancestors. I pray to God Almighty to forgive my ancestors for not following the true faith.
> 
> I am the original inhabitant of this area. I have a history of thousands of years and I am also very proud of my heritage. I should be, because I feel that my ancestors kept my heritage alive and prepared me to see the truth presented by the God Almighty and for me to become a Muslim.
> 
> That is why, I still am the scion of Indus Valley Civilization and also hold the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization, which once was Hindu, Buddhist, but is now proudly Muslim. Due to the effort put in by numerous ancestors of ours, this civilization has come true and has completed the cycle for most of us. I am proud to be the inhabitant of, scion of and holder of the cradle of this civilization.
> 
> And my name is Pakistan.


Yes Sir we not Muslims that means we not on the right Path that is why we don't take pride that we were kafirs ignorants and doing things which were against order of ALLAH and so we give dam about what we were before converting to Islam for us our history starts when we became Muslims


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## DarkPrince

ajtr said:


> Deserts of Arabia.



well u r married 2 a desert dweller


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## pk_baloch

Ticker said:


> You need to educate yourself.
> 
> Most of what you currently claim is because of my civilization.
> 
> I am the scion of this civilization.
> 
> Who are you guys - just followers of a religion - Hinduism.
> 
> And then you say that Pakistan was created because of Islam.
> 
> Infact, it is you people who fought for a Hindu India and falsely called it a secular socialist state. It is neither secular, because it professes Hinduism and nor is it socialist because it follows capitalism and keep over 500 million Indians under the poverty line.
> 
> Identify yourself - who are you.

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> The ages see a gradual decline of dharma, wisdom, knowledge, intellectual capability, life span, emotional and physical strength.
> *Satya Yuga:*- Virtue reigns supreme. Human stature was 21 cubits. Average human lifespan was 100,000 years.
> *Treta Yuga:* - There was 3 quarter virtue & 1 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 14 cubits. Average human lifespan was 10,000 years.(*Ram* was born in this yuga)
> *Dwapar Yuga:* - There was 1 half virtue & 1 half sin. Normal human stature was 7 cubits. Average human lifespan was 1000 years.(krishna was born in this yug)
> *Kali Yuga:* - There was 1 quarter virtue & 3 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 3.5 cubits. Average human lifespan will be 100 years. Towards the end of the Yuga this will come down to 20 years.(at present running )



I belong to Satya Yuga. Due to my old age, I have started forgetting things. Please forgive me. 

Thanks for the information - God, I even forgot this.


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## DarkPrince

pk_baloch said:


>



nice pic


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> It infact is the other way around.
> 
> It is Indians who are trying hard to de-link themselves from Pakistan, however they themselves don't want to also.
> 
> They even tell the Americans, don't do equal=equal with Pakistan. Strab Talbot talks about it in his book.
> 
> Indians are surprisingly saying that their civilization is IVC, yet don't want that Pakistan should become its scion and hold its cradle.
> 
> Arrey, sab kuch mera istimal kartay ho, aur naam apna. Bhag jao idhar say.


For indians threse is no pakistan.its west of india .so when its india itself then there is no delinking rather its like a continuous circuit.And when india said Strobe Talbot not to do do "==" in that sense india infact was correcting americans as they try to see two parts in indian subcontinent where there is only one continuous body.



DarkPrince said:


> well u r married 2 a desert dweller


not really but a gandhar dweller.....


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## Joe Shearer

Gigawatt said:


> I have heard Sindhi, it is easy to understand a large part of it but Pashto and Baloch are extremely different.




They are not Indo-Aryan derivatives, remember? One is Iranian (Indo-Iranian), one is Dravidian (Brahui only; Standard Balochi is an Iranian language).


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> I belong to Satya Yuga. Due to my old age, I have started forgetting things. Please forgive me.
> 
> Thanks for the information - God, I even forgot this.


Thats why its said that brahmans who are suppose to be epitome of knowledge and dharma will fall low in kaliyug.



Zarvan said:


> Yes Sir we not Muslims that means we not on the right Path that is why we don't take pride that we were kafirs ignorants and doing things which were against order of ALLAH and so we give dam about what we were before converting to Islam for us our history starts when we became Muslims


zaravan bhi har thread main islam ki tooti hi bajata hai.


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## kumarkumar1867

jellodragon said:


> No, I said, alot of people lived near Indus River... These people got converted, doesnt mean they arent ancestors and bearers of the IVC... IVC is still going on in the name of Pakistan



Forget about detailed explaination about Indian tribes, I will give a single example

Just google about LEVA PATIL community on google, these group is descendants of Shri Rama's Son King LAVA who founded LAHORE in punjab. This people now form a community in maharashtra which i belong to.Also there are clear evidences of our roots in presnt day Lahore.

Natural disasters, fluctuations in mansoons, droughts, desert like conditions in sindh & balochistan caused people living in IVC to shift towards east. They are definitely the bearer of IVC & all the people who settled in present day pakistan much later after IVC perished are by no way all bearers of IVC, yes part of them may be but not all.


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## Ticker

Zarvan said:


> Yes Sir we not Muslims that means we not on the right Path that is why we don't take pride that we were kafirs ignorants and doing things which were against order of ALLAH and so we give dam about what we were before converting to Islam for us our history starts when we became Muslims



I am sorry I disagree with you. 

Khalid Bin Walid, (Saifullah - The Sword of Allah) was the only human to have caused a tactical defeat to the Muslims in the Battle of Uhud, under the Prophet (SAW) when the archers placed by the Prophet (SAW) moved away and Khalid took the advantage. This he did before he embraced Islam. Was he not brave or intelligent to have taken such an advantage before embracing Islam. Yes, he defeated the great Roman Empire in the Battle of Tabuk after he embraced Islam. And I am sure you would know why and when was he given the title of Saifullah by the Prophet (SAW). 

I am proud of my ancestry, whoever they were. I am even more proud that I am the scion of and hold the cradle of this civilization now as a Muslim. 

You don't want to agree with me. Please don't. I am not going to change my thinking because of you or anyone else.

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## Zarvan

ajtr said:


> Thats why its said that brahmans who are suppose to be epitome of knowledge and dharma will fall low in kaliyug.
> 
> zaravan bhi har thread main islam ki tooti hi bajata hai.


Sir because Islam is not a religion Islam is a deen that is it is a way of life which includes everything that is politics economy laws related to crime many things which are called part of culture everything is in Islam


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## ajtr

Zarvan said:


> Sir because Islam is not a religion Islam is a deen that is it is a way of life which includes everything that is politics economy laws related to crime many things which are called part of culture everything is in Islam


mainu maaf ka do praaji .assi abhi lecture sunnay de mood vich nahi aan.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Thats why its said that brahmans who are suppose to be epitome of knowledge and dharma will fall low in kaliyug.
> 
> zaravan bhi har thread main islam ki tooti hi bajata hai.



Arrey nahin nahin ..... 

I still belong to Satya Yuga. Thori umar ziyada ho gayee hai. 

I am about 90,000 years old na, isi liye.


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## Zarvan

Ticker said:


> I am sorry I disagree with you.
> 
> Khalid Bi Walid, (Saifullah - The Sword of Allah) was the only human to have caused a tactical defeat to the Muslims in the Battle of Uhud, under the Prophet (SAW) when the archers placed by the Prophet (SAW) moved away and Khalid took the advantage. This he did before he embraced Islam. Was he not brave or intelligent to have taken such an advantage before embracing Islam. Yes, he defeated the great Roman Empire in the Battle of Tabuk after he embraced Islam. And I am sure you would know why and when was he given the title of Saifullah by the Prophet (SAW).
> 
> I am proud of my ancestry, whoever they were. I am even more proud that I am the scion of and hold the cradle of this civilization now as a Muslim.
> 
> You don't want to agree with me. Please don't. I am not going to change my thinking because of you or anyone else.


Sir when he was proud on what he did I am saying that we Muslims don't take in pride that we were kafirs before no Sahabi took pride in what he was before converting to Islam Sir first read their lives Sir before commenting on them in fact Sahabas when talk about their age they some times use to count their age from the day they converted to Islam Sir He was given the tile of Saifulllah after he fought for Muslims in Tabuk after his conversion not before converting Mr

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## INDIC

Joe Shearer said:


> They are not Indo-Aryan derivatives, remember? One is Iranian (Indo-Iranian), one is Dravidian (Brahui only; Standard Balochi is an Iranian language).



Moreover, Sindhi language sounds more similar to Marwari or Gujarati than Punjabi.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> For indians threse is no pakistan.its west of india .so when its india itself then there is no delinking rather its like a continuous circuit.And when india said Strobe Talbot not to do do "==" in that sense india infact was correcting americans as they try to see two parts in indian subcontinent where there is only one continuous body.
> 
> not really but a gandhar dweller.....



Oh silly me. 

I thought that Indians are claiming America because Red Indians used to live there.


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## kumarkumar1867

Ticker said:


> These clouts come and go in a nation's history.
> 
> *You were nobody's some years ago. *
> 
> Geopolitically you are still weaker than Pakistan despite your growing and now receding economy.
> 
> The Indian sub continent that you refer to is now called South Asia and only current Indians call it Indian sub continent and feel great about it.
> 
> Indian instead of surrounding Pakistan in any capacity is surrounded on three sides by powerful and nuclear armed China and Pakistan. The only place you can move out to is the sea. You can go and pea in it for all we care.
> 
> *
> India in its current form came in to being only 65 years ago from British India and before that Muslim India and before that was divided in to hundreds of small or slightly bigger principalities. Before that, it was more than 4000 years ago that the great Mauriyan Empire ruled it. And you you are clinging to that 4000 year old entity and some much smaller entities thereafter, till Muslims came and constructed what was subsequently called India. *.




FOR BLOODED PART.

You are perfect model of bigot products that Pakistan education systems produces. Muslim ruled only in north-western & northern parts of India. Huge part of india specially western, southern, north eastern were still unislamic.

India was there when Samrat Chandragupta Maurya & Samrat Ashok rule indian sub continent.
*
Do you know what SAMRAT means??? It means head of the kings of all small kingdoms & territories afflitiated to some huge COUNTRY OR RULE.*


> What global world do you relate to. The one which comes to you for payment of pittance to seek services of your poor slave labour. For half a billion souls living under poverty line.
> 
> What are you talking about. First learn to relate yourself to the current India itself and then talk about how big India was 4000 years ago.
> 
> Currently, the current India just shines like a mirage and nothing more.



We are independent since 65 years, being diverse & huge country its difficult to us to be best country in world with in 65 years, we are improving our economy & trades with global support. Service industry is a small part of our interaction with global trade & bussiness partners.

But my question is ....Isnt providing service industries better than waiting for China to build dams in India or waiting for western economic aids to plan our national budgets???

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## Armstrong

Zarvan said:


> Sir because Islam is not a religion Islam is a deen that is it is a way of life which includes everything that is politics economy laws related to crime many things which are called part of culture everything is in Islam



Yaaraa tell me something ! Why is that the contribution of the so-called 'Religious Right' has rarely, if ever been, positive ? These protests of a few days ago are a very recent example; vandalizing Pakistani property for a deed committed by someone sitting in the US is hardly sensible & yet these religious parties were at the forefront of it ! There are numerous cases of innocent Pakistanis (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) being behind bars after having been charged with blasphemy with little or no evidence; my own Taya *a lawyer* had to handle such a case where the brother charged his own brother for blasphemy due to a property dispute. By some estimates I read that a woman is raped in Pakistan every 3 hours...why is that our religiously oriented people who have a say in the public sphere declare a Jihad against this, against honor killings, against acid attacks, against domestic violence etc. & then come up with a workable solution to deal with them ? Why is it that most of their contributions amount to little more than chest thumping or worse reactive measures which harm Pakistanis themselves ? 

Don't get me wrong ! I am a Muslim & I would want the Shariah to be implemented here in Pakistan but so far these so-called Religious Parties even the so-called Ulema themselves have disappointed me to no end ! Many of them are a joke 'scholarship' *try comparing them with Al-Ghazali, Ibn-Sina etc. & see where they stand* & many are actually bigoted hate-mongers !


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Oh silly me.
> 
> I thought that Indians are claiming America because Red Indians used to live there.


indians may /may not calim america but they sure claim india west of Radcliffe line.Aur woh bhi poore haq ke saath.


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## Zarvan

Armstrong said:


> Yaaraa tell me something ! Why is that the contribution of the so-called 'Religious Right' has rarely, if ever been, positive ? These protests of a few days ago are a very recent example; vandalizing Pakistani property for a deed committed by someone sitting in the US is hardly sensible & yet these religious parties were at the forefront of it ! There are numerous cases of innocent Pakistanis (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) being behind bars after having been charged with blasphemy with little or no evidence; my own Taya *a lawyer* had to handle such a case where the brother charged his own brother for blasphemy due to a property dispute. By some estimates I read that a woman is raped in Pakistan every 3 hours...why is that our religiously oriented people who have a say in the public sphere declare a Jihad against this, against honor killings, against acid attacks, against domestic violence etc. & then come up with a workable solution to deal with them ? Why is it that most of their contributions amount to little more than chest thumping or worse reactive measures which harm Pakistanis themselves ?
> 
> Don't get me wrong ! I am a Muslim & I would want the Shariah to be implemented here in Pakistan but so far these so-called Religious Parties even the so-called Ulema themselves have disappointed me to no end ! Many of them are a joke 'scholarship' *try comparing them with Al-Ghazali, Ibn-Sina etc. & see where they stand* & many are actually bigoted hate-mongers !



Sir why are you waiting for an Alim to do it you yourself don't want to do anything so you find an easy target and bash Uleams Sir Islam is safe because of these Ulemas yes some so called Ulemas are also their and as far as honour killings and other stuff are raised Sir its government duty to do it and Ulema can tell people they are wrong although things which in result in such kind of acts are also wrong but that is another debate Sir do your job and stop blaming others fight for Islam win or die its all worth it even if Al Ghazali would have been alive today so called those people who love to quote them after their death would have stood against them too


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## notsuperstitious

Every fool forgets when he claims India came into existence in 1947 that by the same logic Pakistan came into existence in 1971.

Being so weak in logic, history and generally any objective knowledge and immersed in ideological polemics, they... well, no point repeating. Just read my signature.

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## Zarvan

fateh71 said:


> Every fool forgets when he claims India came into existence in 1947 that by the same logic Pakistan came into existence in 1971.
> 
> Being so weak in logic, history and generally any objective knowledge and immersed in ideological polemics, they... well, no point repeating. Just read my signature.


Sir when people say India came into existence in 1947 the mean the current India which exists on Map on modern Maps


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## Joe Shearer

ajtr said:


> Actually every region of indian subcontinent has their own thousands of year evolving unique culture.Pakistan's problem is not the culture where it has its own different shares of culture in different region.pakistan's main justjoo is to escape from the shadows of india which its unable to do.more it trie more it get amalgamated into indian shadow.



<sigh>

Some days I feel like bursting into tears.

For three years now, I've been saying, to whoever will listen, that on the sub-continent, there are eight river systems around which cultural systems have evolved, and several others isolated around these, which all go into an Indian cultural aggregation. Typically each of these has affiliations to its neighbours, and not any one of them is totally isolated. Just think it over.

The eight rivers around which these cultures have developed are:

The Ganges,
The Brahmaputra,
The Mahanadi,
The Godavari,
The Krishna,
The Kaveri (or Cauvery),
The Narmada,
The Indus.

The others include hill cultures, along the fringes of one or the other of these river systems, the desert culture around the Thar desert, and the forest cultures of central India and north east India.

These cultural building blocks go into more than one independent nation, but do not belong to those nations; in a manner of speaking, the nations belong to them. Pakistan, for instance, almost entirely is defined by what developed around the Indus Valley _after_ the IVC, and the surroundings hills and plains. It is influenced by the desert culture, the Gangetic culture and the Narmada culture, but is distinct from them. They, in turn, are influenced by it, but are distinct from it.

Understanding this makes it clear that ethnicities, languages, cultures, religions are all elements that go into a nation, and it is a grotesque mistake to imagine that the nation goes into the building blocks.



Zarvan said:


> Sir when people say India came into existence in 1947 the mean the current India which exists on Map on modern Maps



The political India. Of course. In a sense, although strictly speaking, it came into existence in 1857.

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## INDIC

Joe Shearer said:


> <sigh>
> 
> Some days I feel like bursting into tears.
> 
> For three years now, I've been saying, to whoever will listen, that on the sub-continent, there are eight river systems around which cultural systems have evolved, and several others isolated around these, which all go into an Indian cultural aggregation. Typically each of these has affiliations to its neighbours, and not any one of them is totally isolated. Just think it over.
> 
> The eight rivers around which these cultures have developed are:
> 
> The Ganges,
> The Brahmaputra,
> The Mahanadi,
> The Godavari,
> The Krishna,
> The Kaveri (or Cauvery),
> The Narmada,
> The Indus.
> 
> The others include hill cultures, along the fringes of one or the other of these river systems, the desert culture around the Thar desert, and the forest cultures of central India and north east India.
> 
> These cultural building blocks go into more than one independent nation, but do not belong to those nations; in a manner of speaking, the nations belong to them. Pakistan, for instance, almost entirely is defined by what developed around the Indus Valley _after_ the IVC, and the surroundings hills and plains. It is influenced by the desert culture, the Gangetic culture and the Narmada culture, but is distinct from them. They, in turn, are influenced by it, but are distinct from it.
> 
> Understanding this makes it clear that ethnicities, languages, cultures, religions are all elements that go into a nation, and it is a grotesque mistake to imagine that the nation goes into the building blocks.
> 
> 
> 
> The political India. Of course. In a sense, although strictly speaking, it came into existence in 1857.



Just confused, how Pakistanis defined their identity from 1947-71 when half of Pakistan was Bengali. How does Muhajirs fit in their current definition of Pakistani identity.


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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Yaaraa tell me something ! Why is that the contribution of the so-called 'Religious Right' has rarely, if ever been, positive ? These protests of a few days ago are a very recent example; vandalizing Pakistani property for a deed committed by someone sitting in the US is hardly sensible & yet these religious parties were at the forefront of it ! There are numerous cases of innocent Pakistanis (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) being behind bars after having been charged with blasphemy with little or no evidence; my own Taya *a lawyer* had to handle such a case where the brother charged his own brother for blasphemy due to a property dispute. By some estimates I read that a woman is raped in Pakistan every 3 hours...why is that our religiously oriented people who have a say in the public sphere declare a Jihad against this, against honor killings, against acid attacks, against domestic violence etc. & then come up with a workable solution to deal with them ? Why is it that most of their contributions amount to little more than chest thumping or worse reactive measures which harm Pakistanis themselves ?
> 
> Don't get me wrong ! I am a Muslim & I would want the Shariah to be implemented here in Pakistan but so far these so-called Religious Parties even the so-called Ulema themselves have disappointed me to no end ! Many of them are a joke 'scholarship' *try comparing them with Al-Ghazali, Ibn-Sina etc. & see where they stand* & many are actually bigoted hate-mongers !



Hey, easy! 

I don't want to get between you and Zarwan but in spite of his spirited Defence of al Ghazali, I personally believe that the turning point was "the closing of the gates of Ijtehad".

This is personal, and I don't want to get into controversies. But the vibrant nature of Islamic civilisation before and after surely speaks of some causality.

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## MilSpec

Zarvan said:


> Sir when people say India came into existence in 1947 the mean the current India which exists on Map on modern Maps



And current map of pakistan??

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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Yaaraa tell me something ! Why is that the contribution of the so-called 'Religious Right' has rarely, if ever been, positive ? These protests of a few days ago are a very recent example; vandalizing Pakistani property for a deed committed by someone sitting in the US is hardly sensible & yet these religious parties were at the forefront of it ! There are numerous cases of innocent Pakistanis (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) being behind bars after having been charged with blasphemy with little or no evidence; my own Taya *a lawyer* had to handle such a case where the brother charged his own brother for blasphemy due to a property dispute. By some estimates I read that a woman is raped in Pakistan every 3 hours...why is that our religiously oriented people who have a say in the public sphere declare a Jihad against this, against honor killings, against acid attacks, against domestic violence etc. & then come up with a workable solution to deal with them ? Why is it that most of their contributions amount to little more than chest thumping or worse reactive measures which harm Pakistanis themselves ?
> 
> Don't get me wrong ! I am a Muslim & I would want the Shariah to be implemented here in Pakistan but so far these so-called Religious Parties even the so-called Ulema themselves have disappointed me to no end ! Many of them are a joke 'scholarship' *try comparing them with Al-Ghazali, Ibn-Sina etc. & see where they stand* & many are actually bigoted hate-mongers !



Hey, easy! 

I don't want to get between you and Zarwan but in spite of his spirited Defence of al Ghazali, I personally believe that the turning point was "the closing of the gates of Ijtehad".

This is personal, and I don't want to get into controversies. But the vibrant nature of Islamic civilisation before and conditions that prevailed after surely speaks.

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## INDIC

Zarvan said:


> Sir when people say India came into existence in 1947 the mean the current India which exists on Map on modern Maps



In 1947 we got new political system but our country as Bharat, India or Hind have existed since ancient time.


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> I am sorry I disagree with you.
> 
> Khalid Bin Walid, (Saifullah - The Sword of Allah) was the only human to have caused a tactical defeat to the Muslims in the Battle of Uhud, under the Prophet (SAW) when the archers placed by the Prophet (SAW) moved away and Khalid took the advantage. This he did before he embraced Islam. Was he not brave or intelligent to have taken such an advantage before embracing Islam. Yes, he defeated the great Roman Empire in the Battle of Tabuk after he embraced Islam. And I am sure you would know why and when was he given the title of Saifullah by the Prophet (SAW).
> 
> I am proud of my ancestry, whoever they were. I am even more proud that I am the scion of and hold the cradle of this civilization now as a Muslim.
> 
> You don't want to agree with me. Please don't. I am not going to change my thinking because of you or anyone else.




An excellent example and a good point. Although I personally hold the man to be a man of blood. What he did in cold blood, not in the heat of battle, is sickening.

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## Armstrong

Zarvan said:


> Sir why are you waiting for an Alim to do it you yourself don't want to do anything so you find an easy target and bash Uleams Sir Islam is safe because of these Ulemas yes some so called Ulemas are also their and as far as honour killings and other stuff are raised Sir its government duty to do it and Ulema can tell people they are wrong although things which in result in such kind of acts are also wrong but that is another debate Sir do your job and stop blaming others fight for Islam win or die its all worth it even if Al Ghazali would have been alive today so called those people who love to quote them after their death would have stood against them too



Dude, first off I wasn't knighted by the Queen so dispense with the 'Sir', merei Bhai ! 

Zarvan Sahib, I do what I can to try to understand Islam on my own but what I was referring to was one of two things; one - these Ulemas have political clout which means when they speak even the Government listens why then have they not pressurized the Government into aggressively addressing these issues ? If someone insults our Prophet (PBUH) they go ballistic but when our mother & our daughters are abused, raped or worse killed on a routine basis they pay only lip service to it ! What is more insulting - Pissing over what the Prophet (PBUH) stood for or just his name ? And this is not to say that we mustn't register our protest when he is insulted but only to impress upon you that it is more insulting when we violate everything he taught & yet claim so much reverence to him that we're willing to vandalize our own country ? Why this dichotomy ? Why not stand up for what he stood for first ? 

Which brings me to, two - the Ulemas too form a portion of our so-called 'Civil Society' & just as journalists, defense analysts, social activists, lawyers etc. raise their voice & address a certain issue to give guidance or at least words to the thoughts of masses out there, so should the Ulema ! And yet instead they're more worried about where you place your hands when you pray & how much above from the ankle should your shalwar be then addressing the real issues ! When was the last time Sunni, Shi'ite & Ulema of some of the more, shall we say, not-mainstream, got together to address what the 'Shariah' really is ? How do we go about implementing it in Pakistan ! What are the laws that need to be revoked, what changed, what added to make our current system more Islamic ! When was the last time they actually got together to talk about these things whereby all Muslim sects were brought on board to achieve a consensus of a sorts instead of one Molvi in that Mosque & the other Molvi in the one adjacent to it declaring each other Kafir & what not ! For godsake can't you see that they have a role to play & yet they're busy either minting money like those naat khawans who'd put most pop-stars to shame or they're bickering amongst themselves as idiots ? Where is their contribution ?


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## vsdoc

What is the locha with the site?

Down two whole days?

Where has this discussion progressed?

Any conclusions?

Halfway meeting point?

Should Indians allow Pakistanis their unique identity and culture because we thrashed them last night?

P.S. Did you all see the gyrating Sri Lankan cheerleaders?

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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> Hey, easy!
> 
> I don't want to get between you and Zarwan but in spite of his spirited Defence of al Ghazali, I personally believe that the turning point was "*the closing of the gates of Ijtehad*".
> 
> This is personal, and I don't want to get into controversies. But the vibrant nature of Islamic civilisation before and conditions that prevailed after surely speaks.



Yup thats something that Iqbal laments in his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam' ! But I mentioned both Al-Ghazali & Ibn-Sina to represent two scholarly conflicting view points in a way that the latter could be pegged with the Mutazil'la (the Rationalists) whereas the former with the 'Pre-Destinarians' *dunno what the Arabic of it was...the Ashari'ite I think !*.

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## notsuperstitious

Zarvan said:


> Sir when people say India came into existence in 1947 the mean the current India which exists on Map on modern Maps



Sir, Islam which is not a religion but a deen does not recognize maps and boundaries.

Seriously though, maps keep changing. For example, Sikkim joined India only in 1975

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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?
> 
> 
> Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.




I can't understand.

Anyone might claim anything. If you want to refute them, why don't you do that with relevance and the right kind of evidence? 

Somebody needs to do his homework, and it isn't the people claiming that it is one culture.


----------



## kumarkumar1867

pk_baloch said:


> aur Ivc wale hindu naee khelate the ...the hindu name was given in A.D nd muslim had imposed this name hindu ...indians are so confused for their identity .......



O Behan, Alexender's historians who accompained with him during his conquest wrote poems & stories about INDIA & HINDU. 

Now dont tell ke Alexender can to India in AD not BC.



Ticker said:


> He doesn't know that I am a Sindhi, a Balochi, a Punjabi, a Pathan, a Kashmiri - because I am a Pakistani.



Nice way to get THANKS miyaaa mitthoo.... clapss clapss clapsss !!



Myth_buster_1 said:


> What the hell is modernized version of ancient Indus valley? We are Muslims and our culture should not be associated with *stone worshipers*.



Tell this to worshippers of BLACK STONE or SANG-E-SAYAHH in Kaaba.




RazPaK said:


> Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?
> 
> 
> Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.



On lighter nore, following same culture is a different thing here thing is slightly different. We just dont follow same culture, we follow ours & you copy it. 

PS: This answer is specially for HARDCORE TROLLS. Genuine pakistanis please ignore this one.


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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> I can't understand.
> 
> Anyone might claim anything. If you want to refute them, why don't you do that with relevance and the right kind of evidence?
> 
> Somebody needs to do his homework, and it isn't the people claiming that it is one culture.



You still didn't get back to me with my remarks on that Bangladeshi Thread about 'all identities being created identities', 'paradigmatic shifts' & 'the prerogative of one to choose & refuse an identity' ! I feel so left out !

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## Ticker

Zarvan said:


> Sir when he was proud on what he did I am saying that we Muslims don't take in pride that we were kafirs before no Sahabi took pride in what he was before converting to Islam Sir first read their lives Sir before commenting on them in fact Sahabas when talk about their age they some times use to count their age from the day they converted to Islam Sir He was given the tile of Saifulllah after he fought for Muslims in Tabuk after his conversion not before converting Mr



It is the respect which a human deserves for his abilities, whatever his religious beliefs are. I would be proud of my ancestors if they had done respectable things, whatever their religious beliefs were. Even our Prophet was respected and was known for his qualities before the God sent the angle. I hope you understand my points - you may not agree with these. I respect your point of view but reserve the right to disagree. 

The title Saifullah was given to Hazrat Khalid after the battle of Mutah. In this battle, when he was given the command after nine of his predecessors embraced Shahadat, he re-organized the Muslim Army, launched a fierce attack to push the enemy back and then withdrew the Muslim Army to Madina. 

When he arrived at Madina, people started throwing dirt at the soldiers and were angry at their first withdrawal after the battle of Uhud. "O you who have fled!" they cried. "You have fled from the way of Allah." The Prophet (SAW) restrained them and said, "They have not fled. They shall return to fight, if Allah wills it." Then the Prophet (SAW) raised his voice and shouted, "Khalid is the Sword of Allah."

Later the resentment against Hazrat Khalid died down, and the Muslims realised the wisdom, judgement and courage which he had shown in the Battle of Mutah. And the name stuck to Khalid. He now became known as Saifullah, i.e. Sword of Allah. *When the Prophet gave Khalid this title, he virtually guaranteed his success in future battles. *

Some historians have described the battle of Mutah as a victory for the Muslims; others have called it a defeat. As a matter of fact it was neither. It was a drawn battle; but drawn in favour of the Christians, for the Muslims withdrew from the battlefield and left it in possession of their opponents. We should have the courage to respect the opponents for causing us a withdrawal.

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## ajtr

Armstrong said:


> You still didn't get back to me with my remarks on that Bangladeshi Thread about 'all identities being created identities', 'paradigmatic shifts' & 'the prerogative of one to choose & refuse an identity' ! I feel so left out !


An individual makes his/her own identity with their actions baki sab dada-pardada ki identity etc.bakwas hai.

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> indians may /may not calim america but they sure claim india west of Radcliffe line.Aur woh bhi poore haq ke saath.



hmmmm ...... go back to sleep. Your thinking pot is producing steam.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> hmmmm ...... go back to sleep. Your thinking pot is producing steam.


Abhi to chai pakoray ka time hai sone ka nahi.......

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## KRAIT

ajtr said:


> An individual makes his/her own identity with their actions baki sab dada-pardada ki identity etc.bakwas hai.


An individual's identity and character develops according to exposure to social, economic. spiritual and political environment and family values transferred by parents if not from generation. 

An individual does make its own destiny but for doing that one needs inspiration and resolve which comes from the experience of others, the failure and success of previous generations etc.

Its about what a person witness through out his life, the social structure, the hardships created by others, day to day events which leaves small imprints on his/her mind.

If one needs to understand it, kindly watch a documentary on Discover Channel about how child's brain develops.

One simple example: No one is born terrorist. It was hi destiny, yeah why not, considering the education he got, the torture or stress he went through, the resentment and frustration, poison injected by extremist leaders, his economic condition etc.

Also see Steve Jobs speech on Stay Hungry Stay Foolish. He tell about how you connect the dots backward.

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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Rora, what about Sindhis ?
> 
> By the way I'm not sure if there is anything called as 'mainstream Pakistani culture' ! If you move to Balochistan they have their own culture, the Pukhtoons with their Pashtunwali, the Punjabis with their own even the Sarikis & the Hindkowans have a different culture then ours, the Sindhis definitely have that ! And yet because we've interacted with each other for so long & been living in each others traditionally thought off areas, we've have certain cultural practices which overlap with each others.
> 
> And I will never forgive you for bringing Bilor to power ! Kameenei ne mujheee 4 ghantiii railway station pe wait karvayaaa thaaa !



He was probably counting his cash to make sure he could make good if asked.

There is no such thing as mainstream Pakistani culture. Culture goes into nations, nations don't go into cultures. You are right to say that Pakistan is Baloch + Pashtun + Punjabi + Seraiki + Hindko + Sindhi + Urdu-dominated upper Gangetic plain. What's wrong with that? Isn't that what happens in other countries? Look at a tiny country like Great Britain, or a huge one like India. Both are built of many building blocks. It doesn't stop any of them from being a nation, why should having many building blocks bother Pakistan?

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> <sigh>
> 
> Some days I feel like bursting into tears.
> 
> For three years now, I've been saying, to whoever will listen, that on the sub-continent, there are eight river systems around which cultural systems have evolved, and several others isolated around these, which all go into an Indian cultural aggregation. Typically each of these has affiliations to its neighbours, and not any one of them is totally isolated. Just think it over.
> 
> The eight rivers around which these cultures have developed are:
> 
> The Ganges,
> The Brahmaputra,
> The Mahanadi,
> The Godavari,
> The Krishna,
> The Kaveri (or Cauvery),
> The Narmada,
> The Indus.
> 
> The others include hill cultures, along the fringes of one or the other of these river systems, the desert culture around the Thar desert, and the forest cultures of central India and north east India.
> 
> These cultural building blocks go into more than one independent nation, but do not belong to those nations; in a manner of speaking, the nations belong to them. Pakistan, for instance, almost entirely is defined by what developed around the Indus Valley _after_ the IVC, and the surroundings hills and plains. It is influenced by the desert culture, the Gangetic culture and the Narmada culture, but is distinct from them. They, in turn, are influenced by it, but are distinct from it.
> 
> Understanding this makes it clear that ethnicities, languages, cultures, religions are all elements that go into a nation, and it is a grotesque mistake to imagine that the nation goes into the building blocks.



There are thirteen such rivers flowing through Pakistan alone and not five as many believe. The development of river cultures therefore is also distinctly different in many ways. I agree to a large extent of what you have highlighted. 



> The political India. Of course. In a sense, although strictly speaking, it came into existence in 1857.


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## Joe Shearer

ajtr said:


> Abhi to chai pakoray ka time hai sone ka nahi.......



WHERE do you get these horrible little monsters from?

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Just confused, how Pakistanis defined their identity from 1947-71 when half of Pakistan was Bengali. How does Muhajirs fit in their current definition of Pakistani identity.



Please remain confused. It is in everybody's interest.


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## Hyperion

Who cares. I just wish that we had imported 'Idli Dossa' and few other South Indian dishes as well!

Me a dedicated foodie!

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## INDIC

Hyperion said:


> Who cares. I just wish that we had imported 'Idli Dossa' and few other South Indian dishes as well!
> 
> Me a dedicated foodie!



Dude, have you tried Pav Bhaji nimbu maar ke.


----------



## Hyperion

Gigawatt said:


> Dude, have you tried Pav Bhaji nimbu maar ke.


Nahiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnn....... Tell me how how how how is it? 


Me love all "thali" South Indian vegetable dishes... can't seem to get that taste anywhere else. I have an aunty in Stockholm, whom I visit just for eating her AWESOME veggie dishes.... (drooling......)


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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> WHERE do you get these horrible little monsters from?


baby pics on google.but sir they are not horrible they are adorable little angels.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> An excellent example and a good point. Although I personally hold the man to be a man of blood. What he did in cold blood, not in the heat of battle, is sickening.



He was one of the best thinking military generals I have ever read about. I don't find a comparable individual.


----------



## Ticker

fateh71 said:


> Sir, Islam which is not a religion but a deen does not recognize maps and boundaries.
> 
> Seriously though, maps keep changing. For example, *Sikkim joined India only in 1975*



India invaded and captured Sikkim in 1975, for heaven's sake don't attempt to re-write history here.


----------



## dollarman

Ticker said:


> India invaded and captured Sikkim in 1975, for heaven's sake don't attempt to *re-write history* here.



Funny coming from a Pakistani, you guys have a PHD on that. What next, you are going to lecture us about women's rights and terrorism?


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## INDIC

Hyperion, Pav Bhaji is from Maharashtra, contains different vegetables but tastes really good. The bun's one side is roasted over melting butter sometime with spices.

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> An individual makes his/her own identity with their actions baki sab dada-pardada ki identity etc.bakwas hai.



Many a human like to live on her dada/parrdad's identity and feel proud. What's wrong with that. It is his or her identity, whatever way he or she may like to identify with.


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## Hyperion

You bushtard, you made me so hungry now!!!! 

The hell with it, you can continue with more pictures  ...... (droooooooooling)




Gigawatt said:


> Hyperion, Pav Bhaji is from Maharashtra, contains different vegetables but tastes really good. The bun's one side is roasted over melting butter sometime with spices.


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## notsuperstitious

Ticker said:


> India invaded and captured Sikkim in 1975, for heaven's sake don't attempt to re-write history here.



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

The vacuum created when shame left has been flled with some quality humor.

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> There are thirteen such rivers flowing through Pakistan alone and not five as many believe. The development of river cultures therefore is also distinctly different in many ways. I agree to a large extent of what you have highlighted.



I was generalizing, and I was counting the major river around which culture grew as one. When I say the Indus culture, I don't literally mean only those settlements on the banks of the Indus, any more than I want to exclude Madurai and Coimbatore, or Chettinad, because they are not literally on the banks of the Kaveri.

And if you take me literally, what happens to my people? Do we belong to the Ganges or to the Brahmaputra? The correct answer is 'both'. If you look at our features, you cannot fail to notice the Tibeto-Burman influence.

So read the description as a means of getting away from that very silly way of looking at history and culture that some people have, which lands up irritating not only Pakistanis, but also eastern Indians, southern Indians, western Indians - everyone but dwellers of the Gangetic plain.



Ticker said:


> Please remain confused. It is in everybody's interest.



Naughty, naughty!


----------



## Ticker

Hyperion said:


> Who cares. I just wish that we had imported 'Idli Dossa' and few other South Indian dishes as well!
> 
> Me a dedicated foodie!



Delhi's Mauriya Sheraton makes a very tasty dosa. Order it for breakfast with mithi lassi. It is indeed yummy.

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## Joe Shearer

Gigawatt said:


> Just confused, how Pakistanis defined their identity from 1947-71 when half of Pakistan was Bengali. How does Muhajirs fit in their current definition of Pakistani identity.




If it wasn't rapidly thinning on top, I'd be tearing my hair out in large handfuls.

Pakistan is those who believe in Pakistan. India (the nation) is those who believe in India. Bangladesh is those who believe in Bangladesh. 

Various cultures go into these three nations. They make up the cultural composition of these states. The reverse is NOT true! How can these artificial creations, these nation-states, become cultures themselves?


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## Ticker

fateh71 said:


> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!
> 
> The vacuum created when shame left has been flled with some quality humor.



If debunking reality is humour to you, you should only watch reality shows.


----------



## Hyperion

Ticker said:


> Delhi's Mauriya Sheraton makes a very tasty dosa. Order it for breakfast with mithi lassi. It is indeed yummy.


Dude, never been to Delhi! 

Could you recommend some neutral territory? Dubai, AE, UK.... etc etc.....


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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> I was generalizing, and I was counting the major river around which culture grew as one. When I say the Indus culture, I don't literally mean only those settlements on the banks of the Indus, any more than I want to exclude Madurai and Coimbatore, or Chettinad, because they are not literally on the banks of the Kaveri.
> 
> And if you take me literally, what happens to my people? Do we belong to the Ganges or to the Brahmaputra? The correct answer is 'both'. If you look at our features, you cannot fail to notice the Tibeto-Burman influence.
> 
> So read the description as a means of getting away from that very silly way of looking at history and culture that some people have, which lands up irritating not only Pakistanis, but also eastern Indians, southern Indians, western Indians - everyone but dwellers of the Gangetic plain



You left out Saraswati. 



> Naughty, naughty!


----------



## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> If it wasn't rapidly thinning on top, I'd be tearing my hair out in large handfuls.
> 
> Pakistan is those who believe in Pakistan. India (the nation) is those who believe in India. Bangladesh is those who believe in Bangladesh.
> 
> Various cultures go into these three nations. They make up the cultural composition of these states. *The reverse is NOT true! How can these artificial creations, these nation-states, become cultures themselves?*



Aren't all creations 'artificial' in nature ?


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## Ticker

Hyperion said:


> Dude, never been to Delhi!
> 
> Could you recommend some neutral territory? Dubai, AE, UK.... etc etc.....



Oh ..... did I say that I went to Delhi. 

There are Indians here who will kill me for saying this.

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## INDIC

Joe Shearer said:


> If it wasn't rapidly thinning on top, I'd be tearing my hair out in large handfuls.
> 
> Pakistan is those who believe in Pakistan. India (the nation) is those who believe in India. Bangladesh is those who believe in Bangladesh.
> 
> Various cultures go into these three nations. They make up the cultural composition of these states. The reverse is NOT true! How can these artificial creations, these nation-states, become cultures themselves?



You will see Pakistanis with Muhajir heritage refrain from commenting on this type of threads.


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> You left out Saraswati.

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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Delhi's Mauriya Sheraton makes a very tasty dosa. Order it for breakfast with mithi lassi. It is indeed yummy.



How much is your monthy income.


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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Aren't all creations 'artificial' in nature ?



Ouch! Ouch!



Ticker said:


> Oh ..... did I say that I went to Delhi.
> 
> There are Indians here who will kill me for saying this.



Why would anyone do that?

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## Hyperion

Ticker said:


> Oh ..... did I say that I went to Delhi.
> 
> There are Indians here who will kill me for saying this.


But why would the Indians say that? 



Gigawatt said:


> How much is your monthy income.


Buddy whatever the income, I bet Dossa can't be more expensive than a couple hundred rupees @Hilton/@Sheraton..... etc etc....!


----------



## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


>



Never saw so many iconic figures together.


----------



## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> You will see Pakistanis with Muhajir heritage refrain from commenting on this type of threads.



Probably because the originals back home fill the streets doing it for them. 

But seriously, how do you know that?



Gigawatt said:


> How much is your monthy income.



The good ol' dictum, never ask a woman her age and never ask a man his salary.


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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> Ouch! Ouch!
> 
> 
> 
> Why would anyone do that?



I have almost been killed a couple of times before on this aspect, here on PDF.


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## Joe Shearer

Hyperion said:


> But why would the Indians say that?
> 
> 
> Buddy whatever the income, I bet Dossa can't be more expensive than a couple hundred rupees @Hilton/@Sheraton..... etc etc....!



I'd HATE to eat a 200 rupee dosa! It just wouldn't feel right! Though I have to admit it does climb to 40, 50 bucks in the SI restaurant near my house.

Wish I could treat you to a Mysore dosa first, then to ragi and jowar dosas.

Why am I doing this to myself?

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> I have almost been killed a couple of times before on this aspect, here on PDF.




I still fail to understand and shan't try any more.

Next time, just point me in that direction (and don't be vulgar, you know what I mean), step back and shut your eyes.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> I'd HATE to eat a 200 rupee dosa! It just wouldn't feel right! Though I have to admit it does climb to 40, 50 bucks in the SI restaurant near my house.
> 
> Wish I could treat you to a Mysore dosa first, then to ragi and jowar dosas.
> 
> Why am I doing this to myself?



Sir,

Apko bhook lagi hai. Kuch kha hi lijiye.


----------



## Joe Shearer

ajtr said:


> baby pics on google.but sir they are not horrible they are adorable little angels.




OK, OK, adorable little angels they are. I'd like to check with you once more after the first six months of changing nappies.


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## Hyperion

Joe Shearer said:


> Wish I could treat you to a Mysore dosa first, then to ragi and jowar dosas.



Oh oh.... so many choices.....


----------



## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> Sir,
> 
> Apko bhook lagi hai. Kuch kha hi lijiye.




Heh.

Too late. You may not have noticed, but I have a powerful intellect. It gets inputs and diagnoses the situation - FAST. I've just finished eight salt biscuits slathered with a sandwich spread, followed by a piece of toast with Indian mustard (kasoondi) on top.

Now I'm good till dinner.

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## Hyperion

Joe Shearer said:


> Heh.
> 
> Too late. You may not have noticed, but I have a powerful intellect. It gets inputs and diagnoses the situation - FAST. I've just finished eight salt biscuits slathered with a sandwich spread, followed by a piece of toast with Indian mustard (kasoondi) on top.
> 
> Now I'm good till dinner.



LOL... I had something similar... I slathered a whole chunk of peanut butter on a digestive biscuit, and took it down with hot coffee.... 

Now all good till I'm home... yippee......

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## Joe Shearer

Hyperion said:


> Oh oh.... so many choices.....




Thats just to soften you up. Next would be a legendary Gujarati thali, all you can eat, for 300 bucks. Then we go over in the evening, around tea time, to a proper north Calcutta sweet shop for REAL sweets, not the nancyfied stuff that passes for them in other parts of India. Dinner could be Bhojohari Manna, or something close.


----------



## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> Heh.
> 
> Too late. You may not have noticed, but I have a powerful intellect. It gets inputs and diagnoses the situation - FAST. I've just finished eight salt biscuits slathered with a sandwich spread, followed by a piece of toast with Indian mustard (kasoondi) on top.
> 
> Now I'm good till dinner.



A wonderful starter ! Wait...did you say 'You're good till dinner' ?  

And so our friendship ends Mr.Shearer, I cannot be friends with one with such a miserly appetite ! I as a Butt with all the food related stereotypes associated with it have a name to consider...so Bon Voyage, Joe !


----------



## Kavin

Ticker said:


> If debunking reality is humour to you, you should only watch reality shows.



In 1975, the Prime Minister of Sikkim appealed to the Indian Parliament for Sikkim to become a state of India. In April of that year, the Indian Army took over the city of Gangtok and disarmed the Chogyal's palace guards. Thereafter, a referendum was held in which 97.5% of voters supported abolishing the monarchy, effectively approving union with India. On 16 May 1975, Sikkim became the 22nd state of the Indian Union, and the monarchy was abolished. To enable the incorporation of the new state, the Indian Parliament amended the Indian Constitution. First, the 35th Amendment laid down a set of conditions that made Sikkim an "Associate State," a special designation not used by any other state. Later, the 36th Amendment repealed the 35th Amendment, and made Sikkim a full state, adding its name to the First Schedule of the Constitution.

Source


----------



## Joe Shearer

Hyperion said:


> LOL... I had something similar... I slathered a whole chunk of peanut butter on a digestive biscuit, and took it down with hot coffee....
> 
> Now all good till I'm home... yippee......



You are so phenomenally on target. That is a great combo. We have these things called butter biscuits, which are almost as good, creamier than digestives, which is NOT good, but heaven with mild cheeses and a strongish red wine.

Now you're starting me off again. I have to lose twenty kilos before my daughter's wedding, and this conversation is not getting me there.



Armstrong said:


> A wonderful starter ! Wait...did you say 'You're good till dinner' ?
> 
> And so our friendship ends Mr.Shearer, I cannot be friends with one with such a miserly appetite ! I as a Butt with all the food related stereotypes associated with it have a name to consider...so Bon Voyage, Joe !



Have a heart. Read #914.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> OK, OK, adorable little angels they are. I'd like to check with you once more after the first six months of changing nappies.



Hey @ajtr

abhi tumharay bhus bharay damagh ko kuch samajh aya hai.


----------



## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> You are so phenomenally on target. That is a great combo. We have these things called butter biscuits, which are almost as good, creamier than digestives, which is NOT good, but heaven with mild cheeses and a strongish red wine.
> 
> Now you're starting me off again. I have to lose *twenty kilos* before my daughter's wedding, and this conversation is not getting me there.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a heart. Read #914.



OMG...the markings of an honorary Buttt Sahib - that made me so proud !

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> Heh.
> 
> Too late. You may not have noticed, but I have a powerful intellect. It gets inputs and diagnoses the situation - FAST. I've just finished eight salt biscuits slathered with a sandwich spread, followed by a piece of toast with Indian mustard (kasoondi) on top.
> 
> Now I'm good till dinner.



Abhi mujhay bhook lag gayee hai.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> India invaded and captured Sikkim in 1975, for heaven's sake don't attempt to re-write history here.


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## Ticker

Hyperion said:


> LOL... I had something similar... I slathered a whole chunk of peanut butter on a digestive biscuit, and took it down with hot coffee....
> 
> Now all good till I'm home... yippee......



oho ...... ek do biscuiton ke upar kuch mal shal ke kha lena aur khush ho jana. 

Pet bhar ke khana khao, chaudhary ki tarha, I wonder where is he. 

Baad mein dinner bhi kar lena.

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> Thats just to soften you up. Next would be a legendary Gujarati thali, all you can eat, for 300 bucks. Then we go over in the evening, around tea time, to a proper north Calcutta sweet shop for REAL sweets, not the nancyfied stuff that passes for them in other parts of India. Dinner could be Bhojohari Manna, or something close.



For a good sweet mouthful, have an actual Turkish delight - Baklava.

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> oho ...... ek do biscuiton ke upar kuch mal shal ke kha lena aur khush ho jana.
> 
> Pet bhar ke khana khao, chaudhary ki tarha, I wonder where is he.
> 
> Baad mein dinner bhi kar lena.




Agar beti ki shaadi tak apne kapray na pehan sakun to nak kat jayegi. Rahim karo, yeh khana-shana lekar baad mein bola karo.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Many a human like to live on her dada/parrdad's identity and feel proud. What's wrong with that. It is his or her identity, whatever way he or she may like to identify with.


Living on dada /pardada's identity is like individual has failed in life.So create your own unique identity dont borrow someone else identity.


----------



## Ticker

Kavin said:


> In 1975, the Prime Minister of Sikkim appealed to the Indian Parliament for Sikkim to become a state of India. In April of that year, the Indian Army took over the city of Gangtok and disarmed the Chogyal's palace guards. Thereafter, a referendum was held in which 97.5% of voters supported abolishing the monarchy, effectively approving union with India. On 16 May 1975, Sikkim became the 22nd state of the Indian Union, and the monarchy was abolished. To enable the incorporation of the new state, the Indian Parliament amended the Indian Constitution. First, the 35th Amendment laid down a set of conditions that made Sikkim an "Associate State," a special designation not used by any other state. Later, the 36th Amendment repealed the 35th Amendment, and made Sikkim a full state, adding its name to the First Schedule of the Constitution.
> 
> Source


................

Because @Joe Shearer is here.

OK.


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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> For a good sweet mouthful, have an actual Turkish delight - Baklava.




Please, please, none of your IVC gol-maal. You are talking to a bengali. No discussion on sweets please. You guys just don't get it. Just come along, eat what you can and some more, and depart without speech.

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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> Agar beti ki shaadi tak apne kapray na pehan sakun to nak kat jayegi. Rahim karo, yeh khana-shana lekar baad mein bola karo.









Joe posted something in Urdu/Hindi !

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## ajtr

Joe Shearer said:


> OK, OK, adorable little angels they are. I'd like to check with you once more after the first six months of changing nappies.


sure sir.i'm getting ready for that war too.............

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## Joe Shearer

Ticker said:


> ................
> 
> Because @Joe Shearer is here.
> 
> OK.



No, no, I'll keep my trap shut.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> abhi tumharay bhus bharay damagh ko kuch samajh aya hai.


you dont worry hunza hai na nappies dhnay ko.


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## Hyperion

Joe Shearer said:


> I have to lose twenty kilos before my daughter's wedding, and this conversation is not getting me there..


Mate, what can I do? I have sort of a similar problem (a relatives marriage in December), however, not as acute. I need to loose only 4 kilos!

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## Armstrong

ajtr said:


> sure sir.i'm getting ready for that war too.............



Are you telling me that you're ready for a sneak attack by Zainab in the middle of the night with phosphorous grenades coming from each direction ? 

My baby sister who is 14 years my junior once, as a few months old baby, pissed on me whilst I had her sleeping on my chest whilst I watched TV !


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


>



*CHUP*


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## ajtr

i


Armstrong said:


> Joe posted something in Urdu/Hindi !


indians are multifaceted personalities wrt to languages.........try their tongue with every language.........

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Mate, what can I do? I have sort of a similar problem (a relatives marriage in December), however, not as acute. *I need to loose only 4 kilos*!



Christ don't embarrass me with that sorry excuse for a pot belly, rora !

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## Ticker

Joe Shearer said:


> Agar beti ki shaadi tak apne kapray na pehan sakun to nak kat jayegi. Rahim karo, yeh khana-shana lekar baad mein bola karo.



Sir,

It is @ajtr's fault. 

Ghussay mein insaan ziyada khata hai.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> *CHUP*

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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Joe posted something in Urdu/Hindi !

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Living on dada /pardada's identity is like individual has failed in life.So create your own unique identity dont borrow someone else identity.



What about furthering a heritage. 

arrey kuch upper story mein hai bhi ya siraf peanut butter hi bhara hai.


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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Christ don't embarrass me with that sorry excuse for a pot belly, rora !



Mara, preda!

_Did nahin to kuch nahin!_

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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


>



Dude, otherwise you're very uptight with your prim & proper Shakespearean English - 'Oh come hither ye fair maiden *Balan * from yonder hill' !


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## ajtr

Armstrong said:


> Are you telling me that you're ready for a sneak attack by Zainab in the middle of the night with phosphorous grenades coming from each direction ?
> 
> My baby sister who is *14 years my junior once*, as a few months old baby, pissed on me whilst I had her sleeping on my chest whilst I watched TV !


i feel ke i'll lose.

14 yrs junior

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## Armstrong

ajtr said:


> i feel ke i'll lose.
> 
> 14 yrs junior



Yup I'm 22 & shes only 7 ! Shes my baby sister !


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is @ajtr's fault.
> 
> Ghussay mein insaan ziyada khata hai.


My fault ?howcome..?Apni sari galatiyan mere oper daal di.

Ghussay main to mujhe bhookh hi nahi lagati.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> you dont worry hunza hai na nappies dhnay ko.



Never use Hunza Water for nappy dhonay ke liye. Rash kar dega. 

You guys don't understand simple things, do you.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Mara, preda!
> 
> _Did nahin to kuch nahin!_



Yup as the saying goes - O Butt nai jidei tiddd tei wuttt nai' - He isn't a Butt who hasn't layers of flab on his belly !

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> What about furthering a heritage.
> 
> arrey kuch upper story mein hai bhi ya siraf peanut butter hi bhara hai.


heritage are like khandar imarat.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> My fault ?howcome..?Apni sari galatiyan mere oper daal di.
> 
> Ghussay main to mujhe bhookh hi nahi lagati.



You need to go to a neurologist.


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## ajtr

Armstrong said:


> Yup I'm 22 & shes only 7 ! Shes my baby sister !


wow ur parents waited 14 yrs for 2nd child.yeh to koi gunisses record hoga fir.

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## Armstrong

Ticker said:


> You need to go to a neurologist.



Abbaiii koi nervous system ka maslaaa nahin hai...if anything it should be psychiatrist ! 

But shes alright...its just them hormones talking not Ajtr !

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> You need to go to a neurologist.


mujhay kya zaroorat mere dad already hain neurosurgeon.

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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Dude, otherwise you're very uptight with your prim & proper Shakespearean English - 'Oh come hither ye fair maiden *Balan * from yonder hill' !




My English is very good.

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## Armstrong

ajtr said:


> wow ur parents waited 14 yrs for 2nd child.yeh to koi gunisses record hoga fir.



Beechmenin eik aur bhi hai ! Shes 5 years my junior !

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> heritage are like khandar imarat.



It is beyond you to understand and appreciate the beauty of what was old. 

khadday mein raho, mujhay kya.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> Never use Hunza Water for nappy dhonay ke liye. Rash kar dega.
> 
> You guys don't understand simple things, do you.


Hunza to mujhe vasiyat main mili hai.meri marji chahe kaise bhi use karoon...



Ticker said:


> It is beyond you to understand and appreciate the beauty of what was old.
> 
> khadday mein raho, mujhay kya.


Ah generation gap................


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## Armstrong

ajtr said:


> Hunza to mujhe vasiyat main mili hai.meri marji chahe kaise bhi use karoon...



Yeh 'marji' Pakistan mein bol kar deekhna aagai seh eik chapppair aayee geee keh Urdu ki laaat tooor dei hai !

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## ajtr

Armstrong said:


> Beechmenin eik aur bhi hai ! Shes 5 years my junior !


again wow...5 yrs and then 9 yrs.but i'll cap it at only 2.



Armstrong said:


> Yeh 'marji' Pakistan mein bol kar deekhna aagai seh eik chapppair aayee geee keh Urdu ki laaat tooor dei hai !


"marji" word bhi virasat main mila hai.



Armstrong said:


> Abbaiii koi nervous system ka maslaaa nahin hai...if anything it should be psychiatrist !
> 
> But shes alright...its just them hormones talking not Ajtr !


no its zainab's tantrums

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


>



ha ha ha ......

I don't know where to get these horrible pics. 

I accept defeat. 

ha ha ha


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## Armstrong

Achaa tou hum chaltei hain !

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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> mujhay kya zaroorat mere dad already hain neurosurgeon.



To tumharay pech waghera tight karna kiyun bhool gaye.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Hunza to mujhe vasiyat main mili hai.meri marji chahe kaise bhi use karoon...
> 
> Ah generation gap................



ha ha ha ..... 

bas napiyan na dhona. 

Hunza aur hunza Water mein farq hai. bas.


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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> To tumharay pech waghera tight karna kiyun bhool gaye.


Tumne apna pech tight karwana hai to bolo .lagta hai meherghar ke time se jang kha ke dheela ho gaya hai.



Ticker said:


> ha ha ha .....
> 
> bas napiyan na dhona.
> 
> Hunza aur hunza Water mein farq hai. bas.


hunza meri uska pani mera.


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Tumne apna pech tight karwana hai to bolo .lagta hai meherghar ke time se jang kha ke dheela ho gaya hai.
> 
> hunza meri uska pani mera.



Pehlay apnay pech thik karwa lo, phir meri baat karna. 

Tum to bahot hi purani aatma ho - Mehrgarh se bhi purani. Tumhein ziyada zaroorat hai.

Hunza Water pii kar apna naam bhi bhool jaogi. Mera tera bhi yaad nahin rahay ga.


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## AsianLion

10% to 20% Only Indian

I have grown up in Pakistan and I know how formal our culture is. One is supposed to say salaam each time one sees a person, even if you said salaam in the morning and are coming home from school, you see that person first thing you have to say is salaam. In school one is supposed to say "yes sir" and "yes madam". 

"Jab barey baat kar rahey hoon tu bachey nahi boltey" (although people are loosening up on this aspect)

I see some fellow Pakistani members of this forum always say "hi" before they type a post or "wasalam" after it or they say "regards" each and every single time. 

I came to Uk and was shocked to see UK kids calling their teacher by their names, putting their feet on the desk, or completely ignoring what the teacher said. Here UK kids talk to their parents in a manner a Pakistani kid can never dream of. Pakistani people say UK kids don't respect their parents, and that may be true, but I've also noticed UK kids also say "I love you mom" before hanging up the phone after talking to their mother. This is something we never do.


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## abc123xyx

it would be much better had you asked how much pakistani culture is chinese...
brother have same culture....not enemies.
..you know..


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