# Pakistan-Turkey 4 Milgem Ada Class Corvettes Contract - Construction started



## BHarwana

*Technological, design excellence earn Turkey single largest defense deal*
DAILY SABAH
ISTANBUL
Published19 hours ago
The Turkish defense industry struck the single-largest export deal in its history Thursday as the country won contracts to build four corvettes for the Pakistan Navy.

The multi-billion dollar agreement came after a very competitive bidding process where Turkish firms faced all kinds of strategies, including price lowering, from other bidders.

In the end, however, the Turkish defense industry won the tender thanks to the high technology and design competence it offered, in addition to its well-calculated strategies during an exhaustive six month negotiations period.

While firms from other bidding countries lowered prices during the tender process, the Turkish team played its technology card well, in accordance with the instructions of Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli. Thanks to the superior technology, design capability and assurance it provided, Turkey eventually won the bid.

The project is expected to mobilize Turkey's domestic market. The process of building four corvettes for Pakistan will involve approximately 1,000 medium-sized companies while employing hundreds of engineers.

Shortly after the conclusion of the tender process, Turkish and Pakistani authorities signed the deal in a ceremony in Rawalpindi. The program was attended by the Deputy National Defense Minister and Military Factory and Shipyard Management Corporation (ASFAT) Board Chairman Şuay Alpay, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Deputy Board Chairman Yunus Emre Karaosmanoğlu, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Board Member Ambassador Basat Öztürk, Istanbul Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Erdinç Yetkin and Turkey's Ambassador to Pakistan Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul.

A presentation before the signing ceremony gave details about the four corvettes and the sales process. The negotiations began in 2015 and the first purchase demand was made in 2017, whereas the final sale negotiations lasted 12 days.

According to the final agreement, two ships will be built in Istanbul and two in Karachi. Two of the corvettes will join the Pakistan Naval Forces in 2023 and the other will be commissioned in 2024.

The first ship will be constructed in 54 months and the remaining will be built in 60, 66 and 72 months, respectively.

The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.

The deal also includes the sharing of engineering information and training program for engineers.

Turkey has built four corvettes so far within the framework of the national shipbuilding program (MİLGEM) namely, TCG Heybeliada, TCG Büyükada, TCG Burgazada and TCG Kınalıada, while a fifth vessel is under construction. The country's goal is to build eight corvettes within the scope of the program.



https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...lence-earn-turkey-single-largest-defense-deal

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## BHarwana

BHarwana said:


> maximum speed of 26 knots


This is a good speed for a ship of this size.

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## Shane

BHarwana said:


> The multi-billion dollar agreement came after a very competitive bidding process where Turkish firms faced all kinds of strategies, including price lowering, from other bidders



Excellent decision to go for the Turkish corvette. Opens up options to integrate western technology at source with transfer of expertise from Turkey to Pakistan. PAF benefited a lot in case of F16 MLUs and now Navy looks set to follow that route.

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## Hassan Guy

BHarwana said:


> two ships will be built in Istanbul and two in Karachi.


smart

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## Suff Shikan

BHarwana said:


> *Technological, design excellence earn Turkey single largest defense deal*
> DAILY SABAH
> ISTANBUL
> Published19 hours ago
> The Turkish defense industry struck the single-largest export deal in its history Thursday as the country won contracts to build four corvettes for the Pakistan Navy.
> 
> The multi-billion dollar agreement came after a very competitive bidding process where Turkish firms faced all kinds of strategies, including price lowering, from other bidders.
> 
> In the end, however, the Turkish defense industry won the tender thanks to the high technology and design competence it offered, in addition to its well-calculated strategies during an exhaustive six month negotiations period.
> 
> While firms from other bidding countries lowered prices during the tender process, the Turkish team played its technology card well, in accordance with the instructions of Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli. Thanks to the superior technology, design capability and assurance it provided, Turkey eventually won the bid.
> 
> The project is expected to mobilize Turkey's domestic market. The process of building four corvettes for Pakistan will involve approximately 1,000 medium-sized companies while employing hundreds of engineers.
> 
> Shortly after the conclusion of the tender process, Turkish and Pakistani authorities signed the deal in a ceremony in Rawalpindi. The program was attended by the Deputy National Defense Minister and Military Factory and Shipyard Management Corporation (ASFAT) Board Chairman Şuay Alpay, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Deputy Board Chairman Yunus Emre Karaosmanoğlu, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Board Member Ambassador Basat Öztürk, Istanbul Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Erdinç Yetkin and Turkey's Ambassador to Pakistan Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul.
> 
> A presentation before the signing ceremony gave details about the four corvettes and the sales process. The negotiations began in 2015 and the first purchase demand was made in 2017, whereas the final sale negotiations lasted 12 days.
> 
> According to the final agreement, two ships will be built in Istanbul and two in Karachi. Two of the corvettes will join the Pakistan Naval Forces in 2023 and the other will be commissioned in 2024.
> 
> The first ship will be constructed in 54 months and the remaining will be built in 60, 66 and 72 months, respectively.
> 
> The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.
> 
> The deal also includes the sharing of engineering information and training program for engineers.
> 
> Turkey has built four corvettes so far within the framework of the national shipbuilding program (MİLGEM) namely, TCG Heybeliada, TCG Büyükada, TCG Burgazada and TCG Kınalıada, while a fifth vessel is under construction. The country's goal is to build eight corvettes within the scope of the program.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...lence-earn-turkey-single-largest-defense-deal



60 - 72 months ?

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## BHarwana

Suff Shikan said:


> 60 - 72 months ?



It involves TOT which will include training Pakistani workers as well.

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## BRAVO_

this much time will allow turkey to hands on the money first and in due course the supply of corvettes .. safe play both country will end up in a win win situation

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## khanasifm

Looks last like 054a program ends in 2021 with 4 delivered to replace type 21 and then Ada and subs program kicks in

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## khanasifm

?? http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/...ls-second-railgun-weapon-system-idef-2017.htm


http://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/02/14/turkish-indigenous-laser-weapon-advances/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Looks last like 054a program ends in 2021 with 4 delivered to replace type 21 and then Ada and subs program kicks in


Yep, the first 4 Hangor (II) subs are due 2022-2023, the next 4 (built at KSEW) by 2028. So the PN is actually scheduled to get the Type 054As, Ada and Hangor (II) all in the same timeframe (much like the PAF did with Erieye, IL-78, ZDK03, Block-52, MLU, etc).

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## khanasifm

Ada http://www.navalanalyses.com/2015/06/ada-class-corvettes-of-turkish-navy.html

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## WarKa DaNG

Does ada class corvettes contains any CIWS or any other missile defense system??

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## CHI RULES

WarKa DaNG said:


> Does ada class corvettes contains any CIWS or any other missile defense system??



These corvettes shall be handed over to PN unarmed, the armament shall be installed by PN by their own choice later on.

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## Bilal Khan 777

BHarwana said:


> *Technological, design excellence earn Turkey single largest defense deal*
> DAILY SABAH
> ISTANBUL
> Published19 hours ago
> The Turkish defense industry struck the single-largest export deal in its history Thursday as the country won contracts to build four corvettes for the Pakistan Navy.
> 
> The multi-billion dollar agreement came after a very competitive bidding process where Turkish firms faced all kinds of strategies, including price lowering, from other bidders.
> 
> In the end, however, the Turkish defense industry won the tender thanks to the high technology and design competence it offered, in addition to its well-calculated strategies during an exhaustive six month negotiations period.
> 
> While firms from other bidding countries lowered prices during the tender process, the Turkish team played its technology card well, in accordance with the instructions of Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli. Thanks to the superior technology, design capability and assurance it provided, Turkey eventually won the bid.
> 
> The project is expected to mobilize Turkey's domestic market. The process of building four corvettes for Pakistan will involve approximately 1,000 medium-sized companies while employing hundreds of engineers.
> 
> Shortly after the conclusion of the tender process, Turkish and Pakistani authorities signed the deal in a ceremony in Rawalpindi. The program was attended by the Deputy National Defense Minister and Military Factory and Shipyard Management Corporation (ASFAT) Board Chairman Şuay Alpay, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Deputy Board Chairman Yunus Emre Karaosmanoğlu, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defense and ASFAT Board Member Ambassador Basat Öztürk, Istanbul Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Erdinç Yetkin and Turkey's Ambassador to Pakistan Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul.
> 
> A presentation before the signing ceremony gave details about the four corvettes and the sales process. The negotiations began in 2015 and the first purchase demand was made in 2017, whereas the final sale negotiations lasted 12 days.
> 
> According to the final agreement, two ships will be built in Istanbul and two in Karachi. Two of the corvettes will join the Pakistan Naval Forces in 2023 and the other will be commissioned in 2024.
> 
> The first ship will be constructed in 54 months and the remaining will be built in 60, 66 and 72 months, respectively.
> 
> The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.
> 
> The deal also includes the sharing of engineering information and training program for engineers.
> 
> Turkey has built four corvettes so far within the framework of the national shipbuilding program (MİLGEM) namely, TCG Heybeliada, TCG Büyükada, TCG Burgazada and TCG Kınalıada, while a fifth vessel is under construction. The country's goal is to build eight corvettes within the scope of the program.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...lence-earn-turkey-single-largest-defense-deal



I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.

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## BHarwana

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.



This is not that Hard to understand yes you are on spot but one more thing is that Turkish civilian Ship building is also very advanced and if you have some interest in Yacht you will know that and many hull designs fuel efficiencies and engine tech is coming to Turkish naval defence from there. There are a lot of things in play here.

https://iyc.com/turkey/

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## Tank131

I just have one question regarding the claims... Which other countries/corvettes were involved in this process... What other corvettes were offered? We have been hearing about MILGEM cominf to Pakistan for over 10 years, but haven't heard about Pakistan honestly giving anyone else a look.

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## Aamir Hussain

BHarwana said:


> This is a good speed for a ship of this size.


IMHO it is not. Western ships routinely do 30 knots. They have COGOG, CODAG, etc propulsion which generally give better response time at acceleration then CODAD.

I believe Milgem will have CODAG; MTU Diesel and GE LM Gas Turbine. But the speed remain slow. 

In hunter killer composite group, the slowest vessel dictates the speed of the overall patrol group.

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## dBSPL

Aamir Hussain said:


> IMHO it is not. Western ships routinely do 30 knots. They have COGOG, CODAG, etc propulsion which generally give better response time at acceleration then CODAD.
> 
> I believe Milgem will have CODAG; MTU Diesel and GE LM Gas Turbine. But the speed remain slow.
> 
> In hunter killer composite group, the slowest vessel dictates the speed of the overall patrol group.


Specified speeds are the emergency speeds.

Milgem ADA corvet's continuous full speed is 26 kts and emergency speed is +30 kts.

Also for the light frigate filotilla groups, the cruising speed is around 14/18 kts. These ship groups are not emergency response or missile boats. They generally make field defenses , escorting and patrolling.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.


Turkey covered under hidden embargo in access to almost all critical subsystems. In the last 10 years, many companies, especially in Aselsan, spend billions of dollars on material technology, electronics, optronics, microchips and nano systems, this is the result.

The delay of Göktürk observance setalite program , the delay of the Anka project and many other main system programs were affected by this implicit embargo.

You can retrieve a whole system without access to subsystems, from west. Otherwise, there are other balances. Turkey has seen and experienced this situation.

Bad neighbor makes you own property. ( proverb )

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.



Which re-packaged Western system that is offered to costumers with a Turkish made stamp?

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## syed_yusuf

cabatli_53 said:


> Which re-packaged Western system that is offered to costumers with a Turkish made stamp?


i am interested too

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## Neptune

Aamir Hussain said:


> IMHO it is not. Western ships routinely do 30 knots. They have COGOG, CODAG, etc propulsion which generally give better response time at acceleration then CODAD.
> 
> I believe Milgem will have CODAG; MTU Diesel and GE LM Gas Turbine. But the speed remain slow.
> 
> In hunter killer composite group, the slowest vessel dictates the speed of the overall patrol group.



I beg to differ. 30+ knots is for emergency use only. The maximum speed for Ada-class corvettes are 30 knots. But even in a case of rapid response the speed is relevantly less than 30. Example: When TCG Buyukada (F-512 Ada-class) performed patrol duties in Horn of Africa as part of a deployment it responded to several commercial distress calls and drills. Note that the AO is very close to Pakistani maritime jurisdiction. In addition the speed is the best you can get in both European and Chinese market for a corvette weighting around 1500-2500 tonnes.

I also would like to mention that the hunter-killer formation in navy is a post-WWII rhetoric that survived the Cold War. But its just that, not more than a threat library information. Today multi-level ASW formations consist of different tactics employed by respective navies of our nations, at least for Turkey and several others. And Ada-class fits right into these plannings not by its speed or main gun but by its sensors, countermeasures and interoperability within a network of warships 

Sorry for typo and grammar mistakes.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.


But but.. Aselsan is repackaged locally as well as well.. double repackage?

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> Which re-packaged Western system that is offered to costumers with a Turkish made stamp?



He's been pulling this line for quite some time, his only evidence, he's seen it... so, don't expect much even if he responds to you..

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## syed_yusuf

Oscar said:


> But but.. Aselsan is repackaged locally as well as well.. double repackage?


makes it heavy

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## Bilal Khan 777

BHarwana said:


> This is not that Hard to understand yes you are on spot but one more thing is that Turkish civilian Ship building is also very advanced and if you have some interest in Yacht you will know that and many hull designs fuel efficiencies and engine tech is coming to Turkish naval defence from there. There are a lot of things in play here.
> 
> https://iyc.com/turkey/





Oscar said:


> But but.. Aselsan is repackaged locally as well as well.. double repackage?


 
Yeah, that is a double irony, when a Tadiran radio goes around the world like that. Same happens in North American market.

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## BHarwana

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yeah, that is a double irony, when a Tadiran radio goes around the world like that. Same happens in North American market.



Sorry I don't understand what you mean here?

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## Aamir Hussain

"Hunter/Killer" groups might be cold war jargon but what does a patrol group do......ward off evil spirits?? They patrol and if enemy detected, hunt and of possible kill the enemy.

We can change the jargon but the tactics remain for most part the same. 

As far as multi tiered groups and using their varied combat capabilities to support the patrol group..this tactics too date back to WWII era wham Tribal Class destroyer leaders were used to in a group with W and S class destroyers

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## Armchair

cabatli_53 said:


> Which re-packaged Western system that is offered to costumers with a Turkish made stamp?



For instance the Millenium gun based Korkut
French radars
Altay based on South Korean design
Firtina
Among others.
A Saab vehicle as the Turkish national car project (maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh can also buy this off Turkey and have their own national car project too)

Turkey seems to be buying as much technology as it can from Europe. Which is a reasonable strategy, helps save time and money.

Question:
Was the Milgem Ada design consulted from a European company? (would like to know)

Just a thought - if you built a Milgem class ship using an aluminum hull and superstructure, you'd have a similarly sized ship at about 1000 tons. Of course, if it got hit it would sink much easier but, imagine how that could play out in terms of propulsion requirements and sea worthiness. If enough money is saved from propulsion, would it still be priced too high for going with an all aluminum ship?

Similarly, imagine a 500 ton all aluminum ship - that would in theory have the same capability as a 1000 ton conventional corvette.

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## BHarwana

Aamir Hussain said:


> IMHO it is not. Western ships routinely do 30 knots. They have COGOG, CODAG, etc propulsion which generally give better response time at acceleration then CODAD.
> 
> I believe Milgem will have CODAG; MTU Diesel and GE LM Gas Turbine. But the speed remain slow.
> 
> In hunter killer composite group, the slowest vessel dictates the speed of the overall patrol group.



But if you look at HMS Forth which UK inducted in April 2018 is also not faster than 24 knots. HMS Forth is 2000 ton

Even if you look at Indian corvette they are slower than Turkish corvette.

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## mehmeTcc

Armchair said:


> For instance the Millenium gun based Korkut


This is purely about the economies of scale. Turkey is more than capable to design such a product.


Armchair said:


> French radars


If it is Smart-S Mk2 you are talking about, the subsystems are almost 100% Turkish, and Aselsan actually exports its GaN transistors as a subcontractor. Besides that, Aselsan already started production of its own radar designs.


Armchair said:


> Altay based on South Korean design


Altay is not based on any South Korean design, it was designed by Turkish engineers with a similar project model being applied to TF-X and BAe Sytems.


Armchair said:


> A Saab vehicle as the Turkish national car project (maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh can also buy this off Turkey and have their own national car project too)


That was a fallacy and a mismanagement, Turkey is more than capable to produce a car of her own, including the transmission and the engine. 


Armchair said:


> Question:
> Was the Milgem Ada design consulted from a European company? (would like to know)


Milgem was designed by Central Research Command (Armerkom) which is a branch of Turkish Navy.

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## cabatli_53

Armchair said:


> For instance the Millenium gun based Korkut
> French radars
> Altay based on South Korean design
> Firtina
> Among others.
> A Saab vehicle as the Turkish national car project (maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh can also buy this off Turkey and have their own national car project too)
> 
> Turkey seems to be buying as much technology as it can from Europe. Which is a reasonable strategy, helps save time and money.
> 
> Question:
> Was the Milgem Ada design consulted from a European company? (would like to know)
> 
> Just a thought - if you built a Milgem class ship using an aluminum hull and superstructure, you'd have a similarly sized ship at about 1000 tons. Of course, if it got hit it would sink much easier but, imagine how that could play out in terms of propulsion requirements and sea worthiness. If enough money is saved from propulsion, would it still be priced too high for going with an all aluminum ship?
> 
> Similarly, imagine a 500 ton all aluminum ship - that would in theory have the same capability as a 1000 ton conventional corvette.



With those examples, you think you could explain well the logic of “re-packaged Western systems” that is being sold to third countries over Turkey with -Turkish made- stamp ? If that was such an easy task to achieve, What are rest of the World waiting to do something similar with re-packing off the shelf systems to earn some money? I believe you can also achieve something similar in your garrage with that logic.

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> With those examples, you think you could explain well the logic of “re-packaged Western systems” that is being sold to third countries over Turkey with -Turkish made- stamp ? If that was such an easy task to achieve, What are rest of the World waiting to do something similar with re-packing off the shelf systems to earn some money? I believe you can also achieve something similar in your garrage with that logic.



Nah, all that person can muster up is bullschit in their garage.

--

Hush lil'pup don't you cry, Turkey is going to develop so you can buy 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-sensor-and-detector-programs.77790/page-57#post-10510039

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## syed_yusuf

PN will need these midest size platforms with decent anti air coverage. A 23 cell fl3000n with 1130 ciws coupled with multipurpse 76mm gun and 2 STAM gun will be very decent firepower against any air threat challenging PN Ada. VLS AD system might be good, not having it is not the end game. Combination of 1130 and fl3000n is leathel and safe.


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## T-123456

Armchair said:


> For instance the Millenium gun based Korkut
> French radars
> Altay based on South Korean design
> Firtina
> Among others.
> A Saab vehicle as the Turkish national car project (maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh can also buy this off Turkey and have their own national car project too)
> 
> Turkey seems to be buying as much technology as it can from Europe. Which is a reasonable strategy, helps save time and money.
> 
> Question:
> Was the Milgem Ada design consulted from a European company? (would like to know)
> 
> "I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out".


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) whats your opinion on these claims?

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## BHarwana

T-123456 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) whats your opinion on these claims?



Any one before commenting first should read the OP as it clearly says Turkish Ships were better and cheaper. Then that person should read about Istanbul Naval Shipyard and it's capabilities and track record and if not satisfied then I will post the European ambassadors who visited NHQ just before this deal was signed.

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## Kompromat

We need VLS

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## BHarwana

Horus said:


> We need VLS



This is 2400 ton The Type 054 has VLS. On a personal note we Need type 055 but I know it is a fan boy dream


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) whats your opinion on these claims?


IMO the statements there are too broad/sweeping (I made the same mistake about steel earlier in the thread) and are not giving the Turkish defence industry its due. 

E.g. the Altay MBT example is not a good one. Hyundai helped with design work, but the design of the Altay is quite different from the K2, e.g. the Altay is much heavier and now it must be redesigned further to accommodate for the BMC engine program.

The general idea I'm seeing with Turkey is that Turkey is paying to get its own IP (that it owns and can sell at will), but is doing so via different methods, e.g. indigenous development, buying consulting/engineering services from the British or European Union, etc. "Repackaging" is just unfair.

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## BHarwana

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the statements there are too broad/sweeping (I made the same mistake about steel earlier in the thread) and are not giving the Turkish defence industry its due.
> 
> E.g. the Altay MBT example is not a good one. Hyundai helped with design work, but the design of the Altay is quite different from the K2, e.g. the Altay is much heavier and now it must be redesigned further to accommodate for the BMC engine program.
> 
> The general idea I'm seeing with Turkey is that Turkey is paying to get its own IP (that it owns and can sell at will), but is doing so via different methods, e.g. indigenous development, buying consulting/engineering services from the British or European Union, etc. "Repackaging" is just unfair.



If Turkey was using tech from Europe why is Turkey the only country in the world to have a rescue vessel to operate 600 meters?


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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> This is 2400 ton The Type 054 has VLS. On a personal note we Need type 055 but I know it is a fan boy dream


Maybe Russia can help.


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## BHarwana

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe Russia can help.



Nope Russia cannot help and USA will not sell. If Pakistan wants big ships it will only come from China.


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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> Nope Russia cannot help and USA will not sell. If Pakistan wants big ships it will only come from China.


Russia's boats with 800 tons have VLS.


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## BHarwana

LKJ86 said:


> Russia's boats with 800 tons have VLS.



VLS is in the Milgem ADA. It launches Anti Air missiles from VLS. It has MK.41 VLS for ESSM


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## KapitaanAli

BHarwana said:


> But if you look at HMS Forth which UK inducted in April 2018 is also not faster than 24 knots. HMS Forth is 2000 ton
> 
> Even if you look at Indian corvette they are slower than Turkish corvette.


Ada: 2300 tons, max 26 knots.

Kamorta: 3300 tons, exceeds 25 knots.


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## BHarwana

KapitaanAli said:


> Kamorta: 3300 tons, exceeds 25 knots.


Sorry not but what I have read is that it is 25 knots max
Ada is 26 Knots

Kora is 1350 and 25 knots


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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> VLS is in the Milgem ADA. It launches Anti Air missiles from VLS. It has MK.41 VLS for ESSM


It is said that China is developping something like ESSM for Type 055.


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## BHarwana

LKJ86 said:


> It is said that China is developping something like ESSM for Type 055.



China has no need to develop some thing like ESSM. China has already developed an upgraded HHQ-9 variant with pin point accuracy and higher speed



KapitaanAli said:


> Ada: 2300 tons, max 26 knots.
> 
> Kamorta: 3300 tons, exceeds 25 knots.



Turkish Hull design technology is better.


----------



## KapitaanAli

BHarwana said:


> Sorry not but what I have read is that it is 25 knots max
> Ada is 26 Knots
> 
> Kora is 1350 and 25 knots


Kora is from the 90s.
Kamorta and Ada are contemporaries with a huge difference in size.

Both Kamorta and Ada will likely exceed 25 and 26 knots respectively.



BHarwana said:


> Turkish Hull design technology is better.


And I'll say, no, it's not. Lol.


----------



## BHarwana

KapitaanAli said:


> Kora is from the 90s.
> Kamorta and Ada are contemporaries with a huge difference in size.
> 
> Both Kamorta and Ada will likely exceed 25 and 26 knots respectively.



In the same way you can push ADA above 26 knots but in both cases if you push Kamorta above 25 it will consume more fuel to reach it's hull speed. and if you push ADA it will also consume more fuel to reach it's hull speed. The hull speed of ADA is higher than Kamorta.

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## dBSPL

Horus said:


> We need VLS


Bro, first we need indigenous amnution group (ESSM and SM2 equivalent) for vertical launch. If you have a naval fire control system (there is) , Canister is not a very difficult job to do.



KapitaanAli said:


> Ada: 2300 tons, max 26 knots.
> 
> Kamorta: 3300 tons, exceeds 25 knots.


What kind of speed are you talking about? Emergency, avoidance maneuver or continuous full speed?

if I remember correctly , in the sea tests, the ADA class saw 35 KTS. But these top speeds are very dangerous for the Ship Machinery.

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## LKJ86

BHarwana said:


> China has no need to develop some thing like ESSM. China has already developed an upgraded HHQ-9 variant with pin point accuracy and higher speed


It will play the role like HQ-16.


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## BHarwana

LKJ86 said:


> It will play the role like HQ-16.


We are going of-topic here quote me in the Type 055 thread and we can discuss it there. it is in the Chinese defense section


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## dBSPL

BHarwana said:


> We are going of-topic here quote me in the Type 055 thread and we can discuss it there. it is in the Chinese defense section


not too much. 

Because it is quite probable that we will see Chinese ammunition groups in the Pakistan-Milgem corvettes.


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## BHarwana

dBSPL said:


> not too much.
> 
> Because it is quite probable that we will see Chinese ammunition groups in the Pakistan-Milgem corvettes.



If you are talking about VLS then Babur and Harba missile is going into ADA in the VLS. They are already capable of vertical launch. Yes Chinese missile will go in as well.

The main question remains which I cannot find answer to is that what Anti air missile system is coming in ADA.

This is the ADA. VLS is behind the main RADAR tower and there is no space to fit other missile launchers so it is going to have VLS for sure. There is no point to buy a ship that cannot launch missiles. Just simple common sense.







RADAR system French
Optical system Turkish
Laser system Turkish
Weapon system US
Hull design and rest of systems Turkish

Why Pakistan bought the ADA because this ship is coming into Pakistan Turkish Azerbaijan joint Military industrial complex.

In my understanding if USA restrict the sales of Anti-air system to Pakistan then ADA will have SAMP/T air defense system this is the best guess I can make.


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## YeBeWarned

BHarwana said:


> VLS is in the Milgem ADA. It launches Anti Air missiles from VLS. It has MK.41 VLS for ESSM



basic ADA does not have VLS, LF-2400 does have 16 cell VLS ..we should have gone for LF-2400 instead of basic ada ..

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## BHarwana

Or there might be Sea Ceptor coming. Because Sea Ceptor can intercept Brahmos anti-ship variant



Starlord said:


> basic ADA does not have VLS, LF-2400 does have 16 cell VLS ..we should have gone for LF-2400 instead of basic ada ..



I don't think we can put other missiles on top of ADA there is no space in the design. So what ever is ADA going to carry is going into VLS. USA will not supply anti-air system that is what I think and ADA will have other weapons.

In my understanding if USA is not going to supply weapons systems ADA will have Italian systems as ADA can take in all NATO equipment.


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## cabatli_53

BHarwana said:


> If you are talking about VLS then Babur and Harba missile is going into ADA in the VLS. They are already capable of vertical launch. Yes Chinese missile will go in as well.
> 
> The main question remains which I cannot find answer to is that what Anti air missile system is coming in ADA.
> 
> This is the ADA. VLS is behind the main RADAR tower and there is no space to fit other missile launchers so it is going to have VLS for sure. There is no point to buy a ship that cannot launch missiles. Just simple common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RADAR system French
> Optical system Turkish
> Laser system Turkish
> Weapon system US
> Hull design and rest of systems Turkish
> 
> Why Pakistan bought the ADA because this ship is coming into Pakistan Turkish Azerbaijan joint Military industrial complex.
> 
> In my understanding if USA restrict the sales of Anti-air system to Pakistan then ADA will have SAMP/T air defense system this is the best guess I can make.




That is the domestic TR module Aselsan produces for Smart-S radars. 




Each Smart radar have many modules like those. If we consider many other sections produced/assembled by Aselsan.






Trials of Smart radars with TR modules are even tested by Aselsan. (You can see domestic modules on pockets)





They are not that foreign anymore. It
is the reason TN requests those radars for all new warship and upgrade programs.

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## BHarwana

Starlord said:


> basic ADA does not have VLS, LF-2400 does have 16 cell VLS ..we should have gone for LF-2400 instead of basic ada ..





cabatli_53 said:


> That is the domestic TR module Aselsan produces for Smart-S radars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each Smart radar have many modules like those. If we consider many other sections produced/assembled by Aselsan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trials of Smart radars with TR modules are even tested by Aselsan. (You can see domestic modules on pockets)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not that foreign anymore. It
> is the reason TN requests those radars for all new warship and upgrade programs.



What people are forgetting here is one News. Let me remind them

*Pakistan offers Turkey and Azerbaijan a joint industrial complex*
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...azerbaijan-a-joint-industrial-complex.532020/


Pakistan is buying type 054 from China and they are full of VLS. ADA is coming to accommodate HARBAH Missile system. In future Turkey might sell ADA with Harba to other countries as well.



cabatli_53 said:


> They are not that foreign anymore. It
> is the reason TN requests those radars for all new warship and upgrade programs.



If Turkey is producing smart modules then Anti-Air system is no more issue as well because there is wide range of NATO developed missiles that can be integrated with them.

US has very little room and leverage left to do any thing in this case.

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## KapitaanAli

BHarwana said:


> In the same way you can push ADA above 26 knots but in both cases if you push Kamorta above 25 it will consume more fuel to reach it's hull speed. and if you push ADA it will also consume more fuel to reach it's hull speed. The hull speed of ADA is higher than Kamorta.





dBSPL said:


> What kind of speed are you talking about? Emergency, avoidance maneuver or continuous full speed?
> 
> if I remember correctly , in the sea tests, the ADA class saw 35 KTS. But these top speeds are very dangerous for the Ship Machinery.


We don't talk normally about emergency speeds. There are also speeds which give maximum range. These are not that either.

Anyway, Kamorta is considerably heavier than Ada and still holds about the same speed with four diesel engines against Ada's one gas turbine + two diesel engine combo.

The Indian ships in the same weight class as Ada are actually the Saryu class OPVs. It's larger and has only two diesel engines and still holds 25 knots.

Ada has considerably more power than Kamorta and Saryu. If it does only 26 knots normal max speed, it's bit of a shame.


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## YeBeWarned

BHarwana said:


> Or there might be Sea Ceptor coming. Because Sea Ceptor can intercept Brahmos anti-ship variant
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we can put other missiles on top of ADA there is no space in the design. So what ever is ADA going to carry is going into VLS. USA will not supply anti-air system that is what I think and ADA will have other weapons.
> 
> In my understanding if USA is not going to supply weapons systems ADA will have Italian systems as ADA can take in all NATO equipment.



basic ADA hull design has no space for a VLS ... and if you change the Hull you have LF-2400 .. LF-2400 is just ADA with VLS ..


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## cabatli_53

BHarwana said:


> If Turkey is producing smart modules then Anti-Air system is no more issue as well



Istanbul class frigates will have national vertical launchers onboard. I don’t know If It is going to catch the construction period of first I class frigate but They are going to be stationed on national ships certainly. 

Additions, 10-11 different surface to air missiles from VSORAD to medium and long altitude missile defence system with different guidance selections are being developed. Some of them are in active trial phase and half of them are directly related with Navy’s specific requirements.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1010592964639371265

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## BHarwana

Starlord said:


> basic ADA hull design has no space for a VLS ... and if you change the Hull you have LF-2400 .. LF-2400 is just ADA with VLS ..



My friend to have more VLS we are buying type 054. ADA serves a different purpose.


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## Mitro

Everything is getting ready before or around 2023 which is very important year

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## Bilal Khan 777

Armchair said:


> For instance the Millenium gun based Korkut
> French radars
> Altay based on South Korean design
> Firtina
> Among others.
> A Saab vehicle as the Turkish national car project (maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh can also buy this off Turkey and have their own national car project too)
> 
> Turkey seems to be buying as much technology as it can from Europe. Which is a reasonable strategy, helps save time and money.
> 
> Question:
> Was the Milgem Ada design consulted from a European company? (would like to know)
> 
> Just a thought - if you built a Milgem class ship using an aluminum hull and superstructure, you'd have a similarly sized ship at about 1000 tons. Of course, if it got hit it would sink much easier but, imagine how that could play out in terms of propulsion requirements and sea worthiness. If enough money is saved from propulsion, would it still be priced too high for going with an all aluminum ship?
> 
> Similarly, imagine a 500 ton all aluminum ship - that would in theory have the same capability as a 1000 ton conventional corvette.



Milgelm seems to have origins in BAE Systems, which has a good foothold as a technology driver for key systems and technologies in Turkey.

I don't wish for this to be a Turkey bashing thread, nor appear to demean. Turkey has made great strides, and continues to make all of us really proud of their achievements. There is a lot we can learn from the brotherly country.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Milgelm seems to have origins in BAE Systems, which has a good foothold as a technology driver for key systems and technologies in Turkey.
> 
> I don't wish for this to be a Turkey bashing thread, nor appear to demean. Turkey has made great strides, and continues to make all of us really proud of their achievements. There is a lot we can learn from the brotherly country.



Thank you so much Sir for your reply, BAe does seem to have close relationships with Turkey. 

We've seen China get a foothold on military equipment manufacture via reverse engineering and we are seeing Turkey using a more forthright strategy of buying what we call "white box solutions" in the commercial sector. This could surely play a stepping stone, just as reverse engineering did for China. 

However, the core of R&D to me is:

1. A culture of innovation, out of the box thinking, research
2. An education that emphasizes the same and not rote learning alone. 
3. Technical universities that teach real research and train real researchers
4. A military industrial complex that is run on the basis of technical capability and merit, not one run by retired / semi-retired military officers or by corrupt cronies. 
5. An effort to constantly improve products and progress rather than like the Anza or the Bakhtar Shikan, which were ultimately R&D dead ends.
6. A meaningful relationship and back and forth with the customer and their needs, and feedback on how those needs have, or have not been fulfilled. 
7. Investment of $$$. But good R&D pays for itself, as we can see in Israel and in South Africa.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Armchair said:


> Thank you so much Sir for your reply, BAe does seem to have close relationships with Turkey.
> 
> We've seen China get a foothold on military equipment manufacture via reverse engineering and we are seeing Turkey using a more forthright strategy of buying what we call "white box solutions" in the commercial sector. This could surely play a stepping stone, just as reverse engineering did for China.
> 
> However, the core of R&D to me is:
> 
> 1. A culture of innovation, out of the box thinking, research
> 2. An education that emphasizes the same and not rote learning alone.
> 3. Technical universities that teach real research and train real researchers
> 4. A military industrial complex that is run on the basis of technical capability and merit, not one run by retired / semi-retired military officers or by corrupt cronies.
> 5. An effort to constantly improve products and progress rather than like the Anza or the Bakhtar Shikan, which were ultimately R&D dead ends.
> 6. A meaningful relationship and back and forth with the customer and their needs, and feedback on how those needs have, or have not been fulfilled.
> 7. Investment of $$$. But good R&D pays for itself, as we can see in Israel and in South Africa.



What Turkey is doing is a model for any country to follow. Interestingly, the path of Turkey and Pakistan, past or future is not the same. However, both will benefit tremendously from each other.

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## -------

mehmeTcc said:


> That was a fallacy and a mismanagement, Turkey is more than capable to produce a car of her own, including the transmission and the engine.



Just for your information, SAAB platform was purchased so that it be used as a test vehicle for the development of the components for Turkey's national car project. This was explained thoroughly in Turkish media, so, don't know how you missed it.


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## Super Falcon

Which were other bidders in bidding process details please with their respective products


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## rana MRL

PN knoes best ,, but there is nit much difference in LF 2400 and ADA .... If LF 2400 choose PN got good multirole coverrte for peace and war time ... But may be due to economic issues , and saving money ... 
Hope for best .. might they also upgraded in future


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## Tank131

So a few things i just want everyone to be on the same page about.

ADA does not have a VLS nor does it appear to have the room for one in its current configuration. If PNs MILGEM does get a VLS it will be one of the modified designs like LF-2400 or I-Class. The standard SAM for the ADA is the RIM-116 RAM which likely won't be sold to Pakistan. 

The options for air defense will be
1. FL-3000N (9km range, likely 21 cells)

2. Gun style CIWS (phalanx vs type 730/1130, AK630). I Dont see Pakistan going for Korkut given its trying to save cost and already operates the other 3 types.

3. combo ciws/pdms. 
- The Type730/1130 can fit 6 HQ-10/FL-3000N missiles (9km range)

- Pantsir M which which takes twin gatling cannon of the Kashtan and fits 8 Pantsir 57e6-e missiles (20km range)

4. Modified ADA. The ADA is meant to house a medium lift ASW chopper like the SH-60 sea-hawk. IF PN utilized a smaller ASW chopper like Z-9c it could theoretically modify the front of the hangar with an 8 cell vls. The Z-9 is 7m shorter than the SeaHawk so the saved space is there.

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## khanasifm

Hq-10 / FL 3000 with 24 cell/Missile

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## syed_yusuf

Tank131 said:


> So a few things i just want everyone to be on the same page about.
> 
> ADA does not have a VLS nor does it appear to have the room for one in its current configuration. If PNs MILGEM does get a VLS it will be one of the modified designs like LF-2400 or I-Class. The standard SAM for the ADA is the RIM-116 RAM which likely won't be sold to Pakistan.
> 
> The options for air defense will be
> 1. FL-3000N (9km range, likely 21 cells)
> 
> 2. Gun style CIWS (phalanx vs type 730/1130, AK630). I Dont see Pakistan going for Korkut given its trying to save cost and already operates the other 3 types.
> 
> 3. combo ciws/pdms.
> - The Type730/1130 can fit 6 HQ-10/FL-3000N missiles (9km range)
> 
> - Pantsir M which which takes twin gatling cannon of the Kashtan and fits 8 Pantsir 57e6-e missiles (20km range)
> 
> 4. Modified ADA. The ADA is meant to house a medium lift ASW chopper like the SH-60 sea-hawk. IF PN utilized a smaller ASW chopper like Z-9c it could theoretically modify the front of the hangar with an 8 cell vls. The Z-9 is 7m shorter than the SeaHawk so the saved space is there.



i think #1 and #4 make sense without any considerable mods to the system. may be 8-12 cell VLS Ly80E plus a CIWS 1130 instead of RAM will just do it. in compensation have a smaller Heli Hanger for Z-9 type helicopter.

7 meter means it can accommodate a good 6 X 4 configuration of LY80

in all reality, a 12 cell or 16 cell will just do it while sacrificing bigger hanger to trade for smaller Z-9


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## ghazi52

According to the final agreement, two ships will be built in Istanbul and two in Karachi. Two of the corvettes will join the Pakistan Naval Forces in 2023 and the other will be commissioned in 2024.

The first ship will be constructed in 54 months and the remaining will be built in 60, 66 and 72 months, respectively.

The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.

The deal also includes the sharing of engineering information and training program for engineers.


----------



## Khamlun News Reporter

Does it have AESA main radar?


----------



## Super Falcon

Because turks are reliable partners

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## Tank131

Khamlun News Reporter said:


> Does it have AESA main radar?



I believe the SMART-S MK2 is a PESA.


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## khanasifm

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/d...ument/Datasheet Smart_Smk2_DS152_10_12_HR.pdf


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## Khamlun News Reporter

Tank131 said:


> I believe the SMART-S MK2 is a PESA.


Ok, got it. Thanks.


----------



## Arsalan

Milgem Corvette-P(Pakistan)
_Model_





Special thanks to @Corsair255 who shared these with us.

_Pictures belong to model ships made by a friend who is professionally involved in model shipbuilding and are officially assigned by the platform manufacturer._

*At a glance, note:*
2x8 16 Cells (can go up to 64 if quad packed) Vertical Launchers at the back side of main gun.
Main gun is 76 mm Oto-Malera (despite it looks like a different gun)
RAM is gone,replaced by Korkut-Naval.
2 Quad-Pack to carry eight AShM.

=====================================================================

The addition of 16 VLS, most probably for air defense missiles in a very promising development. It will be a big step forward in its current state, as it is. Also if we can find a quad-pack(able) missile to fit in 64 missiles in these VLS it will turn the ship into a formidable AAD role platform.

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## dBSPL

We can also see Chinese cooperation, on some subsystems that Turkish naval industry not yet able to localize or any embargo-threat on future logistic flow.

Pakistan is really buying a very superior package. Actually Pakistan not buy a ready product, but an industrial capacity. Now , Turkey designing its own AAW destroyers within this infrastructure . Pakistan will get this accumulation.

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## TOPGUN

Outstanding news a great move by PN thanks so much for sharing.

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## cabatli_53



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## Aamir Hussain

Arsalan said:


> Milgem Corvette-P(Pakistan)
> _Model_
> View attachment 570653
> 
> Special thanks to @Corsair255 who shared these with us.
> 
> _Pictures belong to model ships made by a friend who is professionally involved in model shipbuilding and are officially assigned by the platform manufacturer._
> 
> *At a glance, note:*
> 2x8 16 Cells (can go up to 64 if quad packed) Vertical Launchers at the back side of main gun.
> Main gun is 76 mm Oto-Malera (despite it looks like a different gun)
> RAM is gone,replaced by Korkut-Naval.
> 2 Quad-Pack to carry eight AShM.
> 
> =====================================================================
> 
> The addition of 16 VLS, most probably for air defense missiles in a very promising development. It will be a big step forward in its current state, as it is. Also if we can find a quad-pack(able) missile to fit in 64 missiles in these VLS it will turn the ship into a formidable AAD role platform.



Please tell your friend to use paint brush individual bristles for Antennas! These things look ugly with pipes sticking in the air! But thank you for sharing the pics. specially the bit on VLS

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## Arsalan

It will be interesting to know which air defense missile PN chooses initially. Will it be a Turkish system (most likely) or a Chinese one. For AShM i think PN will go with the indigenous option of Harba missile or some Chinese option in shape of C802 to keep similarity with other surface platforms.



cabatli_53 said:


> View attachment 570668


What PN is going for looks like a mix of Milgen Ada class and I-class frigate. Lets wait and see.As per reports so far, the propulsion system is different from other Milgem corvettes, the VLS is an addition too, possibility of a different AShM is there as explained above. 

Any idea on what AAD missile PN will go for?



Aamir Hussain said:


> Please tell your friend to use paint brush individual bristles for Antennas! These things look ugly with pipes sticking in the air! But thank you for sharing the pics. specially the bit on VLS


Not my friend  As i mentioned the original poster in the post boss.

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## Aamir Hussain

Arsalan said:


> It will be interesting to know which air defense missile PN chooses initially. Will it be a Turkish system (most likely) or a Chinese one. For AShM i think PN will go with the indigenous option of Harba missile or some Chinese option in shape of C802 to keep similarity with other surface platforms.
> 
> 
> What PN is going for looks like a mix of Milgen Ada class and I-class frigate. Lets wait and see.
> 
> Any idea on what AAD missile PN will go for?
> 
> 
> Not my friend  As i mentioned the original poster in the post boss.



Thank you for clarifications, my bad

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## cabatli_53

Arsalan said:


> It will be interesting to know which air defense missile PN chooses initially. Will it be a Turkish system (most likely) or a Chinese one. For AShM i think PN will go with the indigenous option of Harba missile or some Chinese option in shape of C802 to keep similarity with other surface platforms.
> 
> 
> What PN is going for looks like a mix of Milgen Ada class and I-class frigate. Lets wait and see.As per reports so far, the propulsion system is different from other Milgem corvettes, the VLS is an addition too, possibility of a different AShM is there as explained above.
> 
> Any idea on what AAD missile PN will go for?
> 
> 
> Not my friend  As i mentioned the original poster in the post boss.



I think The air defence missiles will be Chinese origin because Turkish VLS and G-40 missile option didn’t pass into production yet.

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## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> I think The air defence missiles will be Chinese origin because Turkish VLS and G-40 missile option didn’t pass into production yet.


Then it most probably will be the same we will equip our Type 54s with!

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## cabatli_53

The technology gained from Milgem program, Pakistan will commence to manufacture own corvettes based on Milgem but The cooperation between two brother state will be crowned with a further step called Tf/Pf-2000 destroyers I think.

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## Turan09

Arsalan said:


> Then it most probably will be the same we will equip our Type 54s with!


Is Pakistan gonna use any Turkish Subsystem in Type 54's? I think Pakistan can have a Chinese-Turkish synthesis in all of her warships... Which with this way your ships will be both sanction-proof and deadly.

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## Areesh

Arsalan said:


> Milgem Corvette-P(Pakistan)
> _Model_
> View attachment 570653
> 
> Special thanks to @Corsair255 who shared these with us.
> 
> _Pictures belong to model ships made by a friend who is professionally involved in model shipbuilding and are officially assigned by the platform manufacturer._
> 
> *At a glance, note:*
> 2x8 16 Cells (can go up to 64 if quad packed) Vertical Launchers at the back side of main gun.
> Main gun is 76 mm Oto-Malera (despite it looks like a different gun)
> RAM is gone,replaced by Korkut-Naval.
> 2 Quad-Pack to carry eight AShM.
> 
> =====================================================================
> 
> The addition of 16 VLS, most probably for air defense missiles in a very promising development. It will be a big step forward in its current state, as it is. Also if we can find a quad-pack(able) missile to fit in 64 missiles in these VLS it will turn the ship into a formidable AAD role platform.



So VLS part is confirmed now??


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

cabatli_53 said:


> I think The air defence missiles will be Chinese origin because Turkish VLS and G-40 missile option didn’t pass into production yet.



The G40 and maritime version of our Hisar and Aster mixture missiles will probably be ready until Pakistan's ships are delivered. You know that ships are not delivered soon

Also I know we produced the SMART-S MK2 licensed, but is there any project you know about an equivalent radar?

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> Milgem Corvette-P(Pakistan)
> _Model_
> View attachment 570653
> 
> Special thanks to @Corsair255 who shared these with us.
> 
> _Pictures belong to model ships made by a friend who is professionally involved in model shipbuilding and are officially assigned by the platform manufacturer._
> 
> *At a glance, note:*
> 2x8 16 Cells (can go up to 64 if quad packed) Vertical Launchers at the back side of main gun.
> Main gun is 76 mm Oto-Malera (despite it looks like a different gun)
> RAM is gone,replaced by Korkut-Naval.
> 2 Quad-Pack to carry eight AShM.
> 
> =====================================================================
> 
> The addition of 16 VLS, most probably for air defense missiles in a very promising development. It will be a big step forward in its current state, as it is. Also if we can find a quad-pack(able) missile to fit in 64 missiles in these VLS it will turn the ship into a formidable AAD role platform.


I was really hoping for RAM... Seems like pattern that navy doesn't want to get it..on any of its ships

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ziaulislam said:


> I was really hoping for RAM... Seems like pattern that navy doesn't want to get it..on any of its ships



Doesn't the United States give Ram to Pakistan?


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## Tamiyah

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Doesn't the United States give Ram to Pakistan?


They can but with strings.


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## YeBeWarned

cabatli_53 said:


> The technology gained from Milgem program, Pakistan will commence to manufacture own corvettes based on Milgem but The cooperation between two brother state will be crowned with a further step called Tf/Pf-2000 destroyers I think.


Inshallah brother

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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> It will be interesting to know which air defense missile PN chooses initially. Will it be a Turkish system (most likely) or a Chinese one. For AShM i think PN will go with the indigenous option of Harba missile or some Chinese option in shape of C802 to keep similarity with other surface platforms.
> 
> 
> What PN is going for looks like a mix of Milgen Ada class and I-class frigate. Lets wait and see.As per reports so far, the propulsion system is different from other Milgem corvettes, the VLS is an addition too, possibility of a different AShM is there as explained above.
> 
> Any idea on what AAD missile PN will go for?
> 
> 
> Not my friend  As i mentioned the original poster in the post boss.


I'd say the Turkish Hisar and South African Denel Umkhonto EIR are the top options.

But at IDEAS, MBDA was marketing both the Aster-15 and CAMM, so that's worth keeping an eye on...

Still unclear if this configuration is for all 4 ships OR if it's for the 1st Jinnah Class Frigate (i.e., the 4th ship which was supposed to be a bespoke design for the PN). I suspect it's the 1st Jinnah Class' design, so we'll probably see 3 standard MILGEM Ada corvettes (for ASW), but maybe through the 2030s, additional Jinnah Class frigates.

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## syed_yusuf

Quwa said:


> I'd say the Turkish Hisar and South African Denel Umkhonto EIR are the top options.
> 
> But at IDEAS, MBDA was marketing both the Aster-15 and CAMM, so that's worth keeping an eye on...
> 
> Still unclear if this configuration is for all 4 ships OR if it's for the 1st Jinnah Class Frigate (i.e., the 4th ship which was supposed to be a bespoke design for the PN). I suspect it's the 1st Jinnah Class' design, so we'll probably see 3 standard MILGEM Ada corvettes (for ASW), but maybe through the 2030s, additional Jinnah Class frigates.



my openion, this is for all MILGEM types, we have yet to see Jinnah class FFG.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Milgem Corvette-P(Pakistan)
> _Model_
> View attachment 570653
> 
> Special thanks to @Corsair255 who shared these with us.
> 
> _Pictures belong to model ships made by a friend who is professionally involved in model shipbuilding and are officially assigned by the platform manufacturer._
> 
> *At a glance, note:*
> 2x8 16 Cells (can go up to 64 if quad packed) Vertical Launchers at the back side of main gun.
> Main gun is 76 mm Oto-Malera (despite it looks like a different gun)
> RAM is gone,replaced by Korkut-Naval.
> 2 Quad-Pack to carry eight AShM.
> 
> =====================================================================
> 
> The addition of 16 VLS, most probably for air defense missiles in a very promising development. It will be a big step forward in its current state, as it is. Also if we can find a quad-pack(able) missile to fit in 64 missiles in these VLS it will turn the ship into a formidable AAD role platform.


I really hope these VLS can carry Cruise Missiles also. That is capability which we need to make sure each and every Indian city in the south like Hyderabad and Bangaluru and Chennai and Goa face hell in case of war.

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## Tank131

I think imthat the only way to get cruise missiles onto this ship will be dual use Harba. Unlikely that the launch tubes on this ship would be the requisite lenght to house Babur. 

That being said, i wish the PN would not go for HQ-16 on any of its vessels. It is a large missile for a relatively short range. If CAMM was marketed at IDEAS as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) stated and it is available for PN, then i would consider that. However #1 on my list would be the Poliment-Redut based on either that 9M96E (or if the tubes are long enough the 9M96E2). That gives you quad-packed 60km range missile or 120km if the E2 is available and can be fit. I think even the Type 054A should be equipped with these as they will give longer range and vastly superior number of missiles. Even the SKorean KS-SAM is based on the older 9M100 of this line (40km quad packed).

These give you the flexibility to load 32 missiles and reserve the other cells for other weapons including ASROC style weapons from china, or 64 missile loadout to really provide good protection to the group. The same would be true on a Type 054A equipped with these missiles. A Type 054A with these missiles and 32 cells could take advantage of numerous different loadouts including having 16 HQ-9s for longer range fleet level defense backed by 64 9M96E2s providing more medium ranged defense, also supported by having up to an additional 64 SAMs on the MILGEM in the group. It would provide the best of all options of any missile on the market that is even a potential option for PN (along with CAMM).

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## WarKa DaNG

Do these ships have CIWS


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I really hope these VLS can carry Cruise Missiles also. That is capability which we need to make sure each and every Indian city in the south like Hyderabad and Bangaluru and Chennai and Goa face hell in case of war.


They wont!
For a boat this size the VLS will be for AAD at max!



Quwa said:


> I'd say the Turkish Hisar and South African Denel Umkhonto EIR are the top options.


Not sure about the Denel Umkhonto sir. That is very rarely mentioned or talked about, not sure if the authorities will consider it. We don't have any long or strong military/defense relations with South Africa either.



> But at IDEAS, MBDA was marketing both the Aster-15 and CAMM, so that's worth keeping an eye on...


Hmmm,,, me likey!



> Still unclear if this configuration is for all 4 ships OR if it's for the 1st Jinnah Class Frigate (i.e., the 4th ship which was supposed to be a bespoke design for the PN). I suspect it's the 1st Jinnah Class' design, so we'll probably see 3 standard MILGEM Ada corvettes (for ASW), but maybe through the 2030s, additional Jinnah Class frigates.


Interesting. This is quite possible actually, missed by many of us here, thank for bringing it up.
Also interesting to note that if it indeed is the final 4th ship that will come in this configuration then there are more of the same likely to be signed and procured. Lets see.



Areesh said:


> So VLS part is confirmed now??


Looks like it! 



Turan09 said:


> Is Pakistan gonna use any Turkish Subsystem in Type 54's? I think Pakistan can have a Chinese-Turkish synthesis in all of her warships... Which with this way your ships will be both sanction-proof and deadly.


I dont think so. Some Chinese systems (weapons specially) may however find their way to the Milgem but that too is not a certainty.



WarKa DaNG said:


> Do these ships have CIWS


Yes. The model features what looks like a Korkut D air defense system.






Korkut D Air defense System

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## Test7

I noticed that the design has been modified to avoid being affected by VLS flames. A more horizontal form... I may be wrong.

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## CHI RULES

Tank131 said:


> I think imthat the only way to get cruise missiles onto this ship will be dual use Harba. Unlikely that the launch tubes on this ship would be the requisite lenght to house Babur.
> 
> That being said, i wish the PN would not go for HQ-16 on any of its vessels. It is a large missile for a relatively short range. If CAMM was marketed at IDEAS as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) stated and it is available for PN, then i would consider that. However #1 on my list would be the Poliment-Redut based on either that 9M96E (or if the tubes are long enough the 9M96E2). That gives you quad-packed 60km range missile or 120km if the E2 is available and can be fit. I think even the Type 054A should be equipped with these as they will give longer range and vastly superior number of missiles. Even the SKorean KS-SAM is based on the older 9M100 of this line (40km quad packed).
> 
> These give you the flexibility to load 32 missiles and reserve the other cells for other weapons including ASROC style weapons from china, or 64 missile loadout to really provide good protection to the group. The same would be true on a Type 054A equipped with these missiles. A Type 054A with these missiles and 32 cells could take advantage of numerous different loadouts including having 16 HQ-9s for longer range fleet level defense backed by 64 9M96E2s providing more medium ranged defense, also supported by having up to an additional 64 SAMs on the MILGEM in the group. It would provide the best of all options of any missile on the market that is even a potential option for PN (along with CAMM).


Sir as per information on net the VLS of type 54 can't accommodate HQ9 missile so far. Further more important aspect for SAM is it's ability to counter supersonic/subsonic ASHMs than range.


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## ziaulislam

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Doesn't the United States give Ram to Pakistan?


Or Chinese equivalent


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## syed_yusuf

Arsalan said:


> They wont!
> For a boat this size the VLS will be for AAD at max!
> 
> 
> Not sure about the Denel Umkhonto sir. That is very rarely mentioned or talked about, not sure if the authorities will consider it. We don't have any long or strong military/defense relations with South Africa either.
> 
> 
> Hmmm,,, me likey!
> 
> 
> Interesting. This is quite possible actually, missed by many of us here, thank for bringing it up.
> Also interesting to note that if it indeed is the final 4th ship that will come in this configuration then there are more of the same likely to be signed and procured. Lets see.
> 
> 
> Looks like it!
> 
> 
> I dont think so. Some Chinese systems (weapons specially) may however find their way to the Milgem but that too is not a certainty.
> 
> 
> Yes. The model features what looks like a Korkut D air defense system.
> View attachment 570755
> 
> 
> Korkut D Air defense System
> View attachment 570754



having 4 model of same kind laid out with Pakistani flag is the indication that this is the model that Pakistan will go for 4 initial milgim corvette. one of the four ship has turkish and Pakistani flag, that mean this is the one build in turkey, rest 4 will be build in KSEW. may be i am reading too much...

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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> I really hope these VLS can carry Cruise Missiles also. That is capability which we need to make sure each and every Indian city in the south like Hyderabad and Bangaluru and Chennai and Goa face hell in case of war.


Better leave that role for ground base babur
Besides the ships will carry dual purpose antiship land attack missles


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## Quwa

syed_yusuf said:


> having 4 model of same kind laid out with Pakistani flag is the indication that this is the model that Pakistan will go for 4 initial milgim corvette. one of the four ship has turkish and Pakistani flag, that mean this is the one build in turkey, rest 4 will be build in KSEW. may be i am reading too much...


There are 5 models, one for each Turkish and/or Pakistani official,


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## Tamiyah

aren't all same?


Quwa said:


> There are 5 models, one for each Turkish and/or Pakistani official,


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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> Then it most probably will be the same we will equip our Type 54s with!


what about European systems..i doubt that acquisition will be issue from italy..will we be able to mate the radar with chinese option?


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## Quwa

Tamiyah said:


> aren't all same?


I mean there are 5 plastic models/mock-ups, each one will be a gift for a Turkish or Pakistani official when they meet.

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## TOPGUN

ziaulislam said:


> what about European systems..i doubt that acquisition will be issue from italy..will we be able to mate the radar with chinese option?



European systems are way too expensive bro !!


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## Kamil_baku



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## FuturePAF

Kamil_baku said:


>



Are these ships going to be equipped with the ESSM Air Defense Missiles or a Turkish system or something different all together?


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## cabatli_53

Arsalan said:


> They wont!
> For a boat this size the VLS will be for AAD at max!
> 
> 
> Not sure about the Denel Umkhonto sir. That is very rarely mentioned or talked about, not sure if the authorities will consider it. We don't have any long or strong military/defense relations with South Africa either.
> 
> 
> Hmmm,,, me likey!
> 
> 
> Interesting. This is quite possible actually, missed by many of us here, thank for bringing it up.
> Also interesting to note that if it indeed is the final 4th ship that will come in this configuration then there are more of the same likely to be signed and procured. Lets see.
> 
> 
> Looks like it!
> 
> 
> I dont think so. Some Chinese systems (weapons specially) may however find their way to the Milgem but that too is not a certainty.
> 
> 
> Yes. The model features what looks like a Korkut D air defense system.
> View attachment 570755
> 
> 
> Korkut D Air defense System
> View attachment 570754



GökDeniz CIWS

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## Tank131

CHI RULES said:


> Sir as per information on net the VLS of type 54 can't accommodate HQ9 missile so far. Further more important aspect for SAM is it's ability to counter supersonic/subsonic ASHMs than range.


With a range of 60 and 120km respectively vs 40km (HQ-16) and the fact that they are newer missiles than HQ-16, AND the fact that even the new Skorean KS-SAM is based on them the i would give the edge in all aspects to the redut missiles (9M96E and 9M96E2). Add to the fact that they are both quad-packed, and they are likely to be the superior missiles vs HQ-16A.

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## truthseeker2010

Tank131 said:


> With a range of 60 and 120km respectively vs 40km (HQ-16) and the fact that they are newer missiles than HQ-16, AND the fact that even the new Skorean KS-SAM is based on them the i would give the edge in all aspects to the redut missiles (9M96E and 9M96E2). Add to the fact that they are both quad-packed, and they are likely to be the superior missiles vs HQ-16A.



Can you give a source of quad packing of redut missile on naval ships?


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## Arsalan

Tank131 said:


> With a range of 60 and 120km respectively vs 40km (HQ-16) and the fact that they are newer missiles than HQ-16, AND the fact that even the new Skorean KS-SAM is based on them the i would give the edge in all aspects to the redut missiles (9M96E and 9M96E2). Add to the fact that they are both quad-packed, and they are likely to be the superior missiles vs HQ-16A.


The question here is not only out capability comparison but availability as well!! HQ-16 is what will be available without a problem, cannot say that for these Russian systems.

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## monitor

Arsalan said:


> The question here is not only out capability comparison but availability as well!! HQ-16 is what will be available without a problem, cannot say that for these Russian systems.


Turkey and Russian relationship have improve as well as relationship with Pakistan Russian too is improving, so Russian wouldn't mind giving permission for the missile.


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## Arsalan

monitor said:


> Turkey and Russian relationship have improve as well as relationship with Pakistan Russian too is improving, so Russian wouldn't mind giving permission for the missile.


In theory, yes. No harm in trying i suppose.



syed_yusuf said:


> having 4 model of same kind laid out with Pakistani flag is the indication that this is the model that Pakistan will go for 4 initial milgim corvette. one of the four ship has turkish and Pakistani flag, that mean this is the one build in turkey, rest 4 will be build in KSEW. may be i am reading too much...


The models are exchanged during official meetings or ceremonies regarding this platform. That is why they made more than one.


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> In theory, yes. No harm in trying i suppose.
> 
> 
> The models are exchanged during official meetings or ceremonies regarding this platform. That is why they made more than one.



Last year Turkish were saying No VLS will be installed in ADA class because Pakistan didnot requested it in their tender. I guess Pakistan has modified its requirements to install VLS 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dimdex-2018-my-visit-and-highlights-of-from-there.548352/

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## Armchair

Bratva said:


> Last year Turkish were saying No VLS will be installed in ADA class because Pakistan didnot requested it in their tender. I guess Pakistan has modified its requirements to install VLS
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dimdex-2018-my-visit-and-highlights-of-from-there.548352/



Or the space is being kept for the VLS but no (Turkish) systems are being installed. A Chinese system will be installed later perhaps.

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## dBSPL

a little reminder :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/997462386410971141
Within the scope of Milgem-I class frigate project, indigenous VLS is being developed.

Why is this an important detail? Because it will be possible to use all required ammunition types in VLS. In addition, some parameters of domestic production ammunition types will not need to be shared with other countries. The Pakistani navy can adapt to the Chinese missile or Russian missile, as it can modify many critical ship navionics including CDS and FCS.

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## cabatli_53

Defence Turkey magazine Volume13, Page 42; May 19

16 VLS will be installed behind 76mm maingun. VLS will be equipped with HHQ-16/LY-80.

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> Defence Turkey magazine Volume13, Page 42; May 19
> 
> 16 VLS will be installed behind 76mm maingun. VLS will be equipped with HHQ-16/LY-80.


Would request If possible plz share the scan of that page or pic from mobile so that we could use it for reference in future

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## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> Defence Turkey magazine Volume13, Page 42; May 19
> 
> 16 VLS will be installed behind 76mm maingun. VLS will be equipped with HHQ-16/LY-80.


That settles it then. HQ16 it will be. This was the most likely choice anyway with Type 54 also likely to come equipped with the same and the ground forces also having taken delivery of this same system (LY-80)

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## cabatli_53

HRK said:


> Would request If possible plz share the scan of that page or pic from mobile so that we could use it for reference in future

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## xbat

WHO would provide VLS? China or Turkey? is Turkish VLS ready?


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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> That settles it then. HQ16 it will be. This was the most likely choice anyway with Type 54 also likely to come equipped with the same and the ground forces also having taken delivery of this same system (LY-80)


Now the interesting _possibility_ about which we were not aware before is the integration of HQ-16 with GENESIS combat management system and with Smart-S indicates the possibility that Pakistan *might be* in possession or would be given source code for HQ-16 SAM system and integration might take place in Pakistan, but for this we have to assume that all four Ada corvette will have SAM installed

Now the _other possibility_ is that it would be a configuration for _*Jinnah Class Frigate*_ if we keep in mind what @Bratva reported (click) last year, here keep in mind
- PN is working on Indigenous Combat Management System from some time
- As it was reported (click) ADA deal is signed with complete TOT and IP rights which mean we would have a platform Jinnah Class with our Indigenous CMS, therefore integrating HQ-16 with it would be a less of a hassle

========================================

This attachment as posted by Cabatli few post above clear one thing but raise more queries for other aspects of this program as per previous reports were suggesting that only the last ship was supposed to be called Jinnah Class with certain changes in configuration but this article suggest that all 4 Ada corvette will be part of Jinnah Class

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> That settles it then. HQ16 it will be. This was the most likely choice anyway with Type 54 also likely to come equipped with the same and the ground forces also having taken delivery of this same system (LY-80)


i wonder with same SAM across all forces, is Pakistan licence producing them or is it simply cheap off the shelf..as it is mass produced by china

still getting a quad packed would make sense for ships with limited space..so its shame than this SAM is used..i hop there is provision for it in the future

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## Arsalan

ziaulislam said:


> i wonder with same SAM across all forces, is Pakistan licence producing them or is it simply cheap off the shelf..as it is mass produced by china
> 
> still getting a quad packed would make sense for ships with limited space..so its shame than this SAM is used..i hop there is provision for it in the future


Lolz, that is wxactly what i was thinking about. Perhaps we will see them locally produced now if we actually start using them on two naval platforms (Type 54A and Milgem) plus with land based SAM (LY80)

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> Lolz, that is wxactly what i was thinking about. Perhaps we will see them locally produced now if we actually start using them on two naval platforms (Type 54A and Milgem) plus with land based SAM (LY80)


anyway a smart move to get VLS with milgem..especially since we are getting other ships for peace time problems..
swift covertte might open up if aid is resumed..as the lobbying will be probably done by the senators of that state..

everyone wants a chunk of federal money and there is always intense lobbying by the producers of defense equipment if the bottle neck is removed by capital hill..problem is that pakistan lost its focus on this dynamic in USA for last 5-7 years or so

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## Kamil_baku

Arsalan said:


> Lolz, that is wxactly what i was thinking about. Perhaps we will see them locally produced now if we actually start using them on two naval platforms (Type 54A and Milgem) plus with land based SAM (LY80)


You can use Turkish sam Hisar a and Hisar o in the future if you need it. 
advatage of Hisar design is that i can also stop supersonic missiles like its European examples which were tested several times. It is important for you because of Indian missiles. Turkish sam and European sams looks like a lot and thats their main difference from ESSM i guess.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Kamil_baku said:


> You can use Turkish sam Hisar a and Hisar o in the future if you need it.
> advatage of Hisar design is that i can also stop supersonic missiles like its European examples which were tested several times. It is important for you because of Indian missiles. Turkish sam and European sams looks like a lot and thats their main difference from ESSM i guess.





If you're talking about the Aster Hisar mix, its conceptual design isn't over. Not even the asters themselves are good for long-range missiles.

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## Kamil_baku

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> If you're talking about the Aster Hisar mix, its conceptual design isn't over. Not even the asters themselves are good for long-range missiles.


if you look at the design of hisar, its design is identical to aster.. its designed with new threats in mind to protect from supersonic cruise missiles too(but not from hypersonic which countries develop now). 
France did several successful hits, you can google it.. thats the reason they can agree to develop a missile that could not be used quadre in VLS like ESSM

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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Lolz, that is wxactly what i was thinking about. Perhaps we will see them locally produced now if we actually start using them on two naval platforms (Type 54A and Milgem) plus with land based SAM (LY80)


I think there was talk of local production so it might be cheaper to put these missiles on our platforms. 
A

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## Quwa

Due credit to the PN for pulling this together the right way, e.g., seemingly changing the scope of the MILGEM to include VLA, commonality in SAMs between the 054A and Jinnah Class, etc. Question is, can they take it a step further and secure the HQ-16B with 70 km range? Or maybe add a supersonic AShM to both ships?

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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## Tank131

truthseeker2010 said:


> Can you give a source of quad packing of redut missile on naval ships?


I haven't seen whether reduts themselves are quad-packed on ships, but their mobile launchers (quad packs the 9m96e and E2). With that being said, the KS-SAM which was jointly developed by Russia and S. Korea is quad packed and is based on the 9M100 and 9M96.


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## S.Y.A

khanasifm said:


>


the ship (TF4500) looks like something out of a sci-fi novel/movie. the representative of the company says that it can achieve really high speeds of up to 40knots!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> I think imthat the only way to get cruise missiles onto this ship will be dual use Harba. Unlikely that the launch tubes on this ship would be the requisite lenght to house Babur.
> 
> That being said, i wish the PN would not go for HQ-16 on any of its vessels. It is a large missile for a relatively short range. If CAMM was marketed at IDEAS as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) stated and it is available for PN, then i would consider that. However #1 on my list would be the Poliment-Redut based on either that 9M96E (or if the tubes are long enough the 9M96E2). That gives you quad-packed 60km range missile or 120km if the E2 is available and can be fit. I think even the Type 054A should be equipped with these as they will give longer range and vastly superior number of missiles. Even the SKorean KS-SAM is based on the older 9M100 of this line (40km quad packed).
> 
> These give you the flexibility to load 32 missiles and reserve the other cells for other weapons including ASROC style weapons from china, or 64 missile loadout to really provide good protection to the group. The same would be true on a Type 054A equipped with these missiles. A Type 054A with these missiles and 32 cells could take advantage of numerous different loadouts including having 16 HQ-9s for longer range fleet level defense backed by 64 9M96E2s providing more medium ranged defense, also supported by having up to an additional 64 SAMs on the MILGEM in the group. It would provide the best of all options of any missile on the market that is even a potential option for PN (along with CAMM).


Ultimately, the ships will outlast the weapons and electronics. Yes, the HHQ-16 isn't ideal, but it's good seeing the PN work towards commonality across its own fleet _and _with the PA. Of course, HHQ-16 or HHQ-16, I would prefer we co-develop SAMs with South Africa and/or Turkey. We can then update the 054A and Jinnah (JN) down the line.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, the ships will outlast the weapons and electronics. Yes, the HHQ-16 isn't ideal, but it's good seeing the PN work towards commonality across its own fleet _and _with the PA. Of course, HHQ-16 or HHQ-16, I would prefer we co-develop SAMs with South Africa and/or Turkey. We can then update the 054A and Jinnah (JN) down the line.


It does appear that PN will be looking to develop a SAM with assistance (likely turkey or china) given that there has been talk of an indigenous VLS unit being developed. That being said they need to have some foresight regarding force multipliers and ultimately try for 2 types of SAMs. A medium ranged, quad-packed sam (ideally in the 50-70km range) and a lomg range high altitude SAM with 250-300km range both of which need land and naval applications. Its a large task but Pakistans military has never given SAMs the proper respect and attention and now they are way behind the game on naval amd land front.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> It does appear that PN will be looking to develop a SAM with assistance (likely turkey or china) given that there has been talk of an indigenous VLS unit being developed. That being said they need to have some foresight regarding force multipliers and ultimately try for 2 types of SAMs. A medium ranged, quad-packed sam (ideally in the 50-70km range) and a lomg range high altitude SAM with 250-300km range both of which need land and naval applications. Its a large task but Pakistans military has never given SAMs the proper respect and attention and now they are way behind the game on naval amd land front.


Of the service arms, I think the PN is the most 'even keel' (no pun intended).

The PA seems to move slow (every program is a massive investment due to size) and, in some cases, might adopt solutions that aren't the latest or greatest (e.g., SALH HQ-16 instead of a ARH SAM). 

The PAF is more ambitious and, as of late, can swing between the extremes. Case in point, the PAF CAS said that their current plan for Project Azm is to have a twin-engine fighter with super cruise, but they also want to develop something with the goal of ending imports once and for all. It's high risk, high reward.

The PN is proving that it's open to ideas, but it also wants to expedite timelines and avoid excessive risk. In this case, the Hangor SSP, Type 054A/P FFG, JN FFG, and Damen Corvettes are all based on proven platforms, but if possible or realistic, the PN asked for future-leaning capabilities. 

With the Type 054A/P, we reportedly have supersonic-cruising ASCMs. With the JN FFG, we evidently have a VLS system that will carry a MR-SAM in the HHQ-16. Yes, it isn't ideal, but there's nothing to stop the PN from re-fitting the JN FFG and 054A/P with a next-gen MR/LR quad-packable SAM should one* become accessible in the future. *

Had the PN taken the PA way, then it'd just be the MILGEM Ada without VLS, and we would really have no shot at improving it. Had the PN taken the PAF way, then we wouldn't have either 054A/P or JN FFGs in the pipeline, but a vague plan about 8 next-gen frigates and rumours of interest in the Turkish I-Class. 

Instead, the JN FFG gives us something to work with by being good when it launches (with the HQ-16), with the potential to be much, much better 10-15 years later via a quad-pack SM-2/3-like SAM if and when available.

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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> Due credit to the PN for pulling this together the right way, e.g., seemingly changing the scope of the MILGEM to include VLA, commonality in SAMs between the 054A and Jinnah Class, etc. Question is, can they take it a step further and secure the HQ-16B with 70 km range? Or maybe add a supersonic AShM to both ships?


should be an issue of money only..hq16b is same system with same launcher

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, the ships will outlast the weapons and electronics. Yes, the HHQ-16 isn't ideal, but it's good seeing the PN work towards commonality across its own fleet _and _with the PA. Of course, HHQ-16 or HHQ-16, I would prefer we co-develop SAMs with South Africa and/or Turkey. We can then update the 054A and Jinnah (JN) down the line.


Do HQ16 and 16A have the same sized launchers or twould there be a different VLS system for both? In the former case it may just be a case of upgrade of missiles as they become available. In the later case we might have to think long term. The only question is whether availability is assured for the 16Bs.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Do HQ16 and 16A have the same sized launchers or twould there be a different VLS system for both? In the former case it may just be a case of upgrade of missiles as they become available. In the later case we might have to think long term. The only question is whether availability is assured for the 16Bs.
> A


Besides the range, I'm not too clear on the HQ-16B's differences to be honest. Someone reliable even told me that the main difference is apparently software related, so moving to HQ-16B (land or sea) shouldn't be a problem. 

So, we'll basically have to wait and see. But it'd be a weird move not to go for HQ-16B seeing how it'll give both the 054A/P and JN FFGs a 70 km-range SAM.

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## Tank131

If there are going to be Chinese MR-SAM then PN should go for a chinese CIWS (Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10). Gives you just a bit more defensive capability when you are considering the fact that you will only have 16 SAMs.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Milgem engine, gun, radar, missiles are all Europe made. Not very reliable source.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

undertakerwwefan said:


> Milgem engine, gun, radar, *missiles are all Europe made*. Not very reliable source.


Correction: the PN has opted for Chinese missiles for the MILGEM.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Correction: the PN has opted for Chinese missiles for the MILGEM.



Source?


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## Ultima Thule

undertakerwwefan said:


> Source?


go search PDF then you would find it @undertakerwwefan


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

undertakerwwefan said:


> Source?



_During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with *Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells)* installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels. 

Additionally, instead of 21-cell Mk49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) for short-range RIM-116 Block IA/HAS Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) and RMG-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles *the Jinnah Class corvettes will be will be fitted with a 16-Cell VLS (to be located behind the main gun) for the LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missile System and C-802 anti-ship missiles.* _

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

undertakerwwefan said:


> Milgem engine, gun, radar, missiles are all Europe made. Not very reliable source.



I wonder why back banned terrorist Iraqi/Kurd with slobbering mouth.

I don't think you're curious, but we have projects for all of them. The used radar T / R modules are included in the domestic production and will soon become a fully national radar. The missile of the ship is ready with the missile domestic engine (which you can see from my profile photo).

I don't think you're not interested again, but with this money we have earned from Pakistan, we plan to make more bombs and ammunition and send them to your beloved terrorist friends.


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## TheDarkKnight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> _During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with *Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells)* installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.
> 
> Additionally, instead of 21-cell Mk49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) for short-range RIM-116 Block IA/HAS Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) and RMG-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles *the Jinnah Class corvettes will be will be fitted with a 16-Cell VLS (to be located behind the main gun) for the LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missile System and C-802 anti-ship missiles.* _
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​


So all four are jinnah class corvettes now? Is there still going to be a larger frigate ?
@Rashid Mahmood


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheDarkKnight said:


> So all four are jinnah class corvettes now? Is there still going to be a larger frigate ?


It's starting to seem like all 4 MILGEMs will be with VLS, and that the PN is calling them the Jinnah-class Frigate.

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## Tamiyah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's starting to seem like all 4 MILGEMs will be with VLS, and that the PN is calling them the Jinnah-class Frigate.


So it means 4 ship will be same as of the first three?


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## Test7

@undertakerwwefan Ohhh ban addicted boy is back. It won't take long to get banned again. People aren't here to use the false flag like you. Defense industry enthusiasts are here. Not provocateurs. Enough resources available in the forum.

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Do HQ16 and 16A have the same sized launchers or twould there be a different VLS system for both? In the former case it may just be a case of upgrade of missiles as they become available. In the later case we might have to think long term. The only question is whether availability is assured for the 16Bs.
> A


HQ-16A and HQ-16B are land-based versions, while HQ-16 and HQ-16C are ship-based versions.

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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> HQ-16A and HQ-16B are land-based versions, while HQ-16 and HQ-16C are ship-based versions.


Still does not answer my question. Does extended range missiles require different types of VLS tubes or can be fired from the same VLS tube? Similarly do A and B require different typse of delivery system or not? Help would be appreciated
A

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Still does not answer my question. Does extended range missiles require different types of VLS tubes or can be fired from the same VLS tube? Similarly do A and B require different typse of delivery system or not?
> A


1. HQ-16B is slightly longer than HQ-16A.






2. HQ-16A and HQ-16B use the same delivery system or VLS tubes. 

HQ-16B

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## araz

LKJ86 said:


> 1. HQ-16B is slightly longer than HQ-16A.
> View attachment 571253
> 
> 
> 2. HQ-16A and HQ-16B use the same delivery system or VLS tubes.
> 
> HQ-16B
> View attachment 571254


Thank you for your help. 
A


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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> 1. HQ-16B is slightly longer than HQ-16A.
> View attachment 571253
> 
> 
> 2. HQ-16A and HQ-16B use the same delivery system or VLS tubes.
> 
> HQ-16B
> View attachment 571254


any idea HQ-16A is still under production or only HQ-16B is production

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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> any idea HQ-16A is still under production or only HQ-16B is production


One thing for sure is that more and more HQ-16B SAMs are used by PLA Army.

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## CHI RULES

Kamil_baku said:


> You can use Turkish sam Hisar a and Hisar o in the future if you need it.
> advatage of Hisar design is that i can also stop supersonic missiles like its European examples which were tested several times. It is important for you because of Indian missiles. Turkish sam and European sams looks like a lot and thats their main difference from ESSM i guess.



Sir as per news available HQ16s are installed by China near Indo/China border, the SAM is quite capable to counter Indian Brahmos along with other missiles. Moreover range of missile has been also increased extensively up to 70 KM+ in latest version. Hope Pak gets latest version for naval usage.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Ultimately, the ships will outlast the weapons and electronics. Yes, the HHQ-16 isn't ideal, but it's good seeing the PN work towards commonality across its own fleet _and _with the PA. Of course, HHQ-16 or HHQ-16, I would prefer we co-develop SAMs with South Africa and/or Turkey. We can then update the 054A and Jinnah (JN) down the line.



Sir why not to go for JV on HQ 16b and later on use this experience to manufacture own medium to long range SAMs just like happened in case of Harba or Azb. Further the progress should have been started years ago with development of Anza versions.

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## khanasifm

https://www.janes.com/article/84369/third-milgem-corvette-delivered-to-turkish-navy


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## khanasifm

Took asw platform and turned it into multi role Jinnah class

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## S.Y.A

I remember Mastan khan getting pissed off because the Navy only went for the Subs and not for a few frigates, when the news about 8 subs broke. Turns out the Navy does listen to Mastan Khan

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## Areesh

Quwa said:


> Due credit to the PN for pulling this together the right way, e.g., seemingly changing the scope of the MILGEM to include VLA, commonality in SAMs between the 054A and Jinnah Class, etc. Question is, can they take it a step further and secure the HQ-16B with 70 km range? Or maybe add a supersonic AShM to both ships?



Pak bahria zindabad


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## khanasifm

Plus torpedo tubes bay

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Still does not answer my question. Does extended range missiles require different types of VLS tubes or can be fired from the same VLS tube? Similarly do A and B require different typse of delivery system or not? Help would be appreciated
> A


all the Chinese sources quote that HQ16 & hq16b are same launcher with just updated missiles aerodynamics and rocket fuel quality, extending the range

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## Test7

*Pakistan's Milgems- Classification Agreement Signed Between TURK LOYDU and ASFAT*

The classification activities of 4 MİLGEM type Corvette, which have been contracted in accordance with the agreement signed with the Asfat A.Ş. and Pakistan, will be realized by Türk Loydu.

The signing ceremony of the classification contract was held with the participation of Türk Loydu General Manager Lütfü SAVAŞKAN and ASFAT A.Ş. General Manager Mr. Asat AKGÜN at the Project Management Office of Asfat A.Ş.

The ships, two of which will be built at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard and the other two at the Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan, are expected to be 99.56 meters long, 14.42 meters wide and a maximum speed of 26 knots.

MİLGEM type corvettes, which have the ability to take an active role in military operations, intelligence gathering, monitoring and search and rescue, will be built according to Türk Loydu naval ship classification rules.

https://www.turkloydu.org/en-us/hab...-ve-asfat-arasında-klaslama-sozlesmesi-i.aspx

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## TheDarkKnight

Quwa said:


> Due credit to the PN for pulling this together the right way, e.g., seemingly changing the scope of the MILGEM to include VLA, commonality in SAMs between the 054A and Jinnah Class, etc. Question is, can they take it a step further and secure the HQ-16B with 70 km range? Or maybe add a supersonic AShM to both ships?


The question is how does PN and Pak forces in general plan on countering supersonic missiles like Brahmos ? As per my understanding LY80 cannot counter it neither can the CIWS. But then why are the forces investing in a platform like ly80 which cannot counter major threats like brahmos?
@Oscar @Rashid Mahmood


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## Ultima Thule

TheDarkKnight said:


> The question is how does PN and Pak forces in general plan on countering supersonic missiles like Brahmos ? As per my understanding LY80 cannot counter it neither can the CIWS. But then why are the forces investing in a platform like ly80 which cannot counter major threats like brahmos?
> @Oscar @Rashid Mahmood


With upcoming Frigate for Pakistan Type 54 it will be equipped with FL-3000 Which specially designed to kill supersonic anti ship missiles just like US RAM and UK CAMM @TheDarkKnight

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## SoftKill

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156869452555837440

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## cabatli_53

Pakistani Milgem will use Yakamos sonar system developed by Meteksan.

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## Test7

More information about the Meteksan- Yakamos Sonar





http://www.meteksan.com/media/file/yakamos-brosur-eng_1522760303.pdf

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## M.AsfandYar

cabatli_53 said:


> Pakistani Milgem will use Yakamos sonar system developed by Meteksan.


@HRK 
Translation of that tweet.

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## SQ8

TheDarkKnight said:


> The question is how does PN and Pak forces in general plan on countering supersonic missiles like Brahmos ? As per my understanding LY80 cannot counter it neither can the CIWS. But then why are the forces investing in a platform like ly80 which cannot counter major threats like brahmos?
> @Oscar @Rashid Mahmood


Countermeasures are in the works involving a known CIWS used on US made ships; but currently no effective one exists.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

It was supposed to be Ram where Gokdeniz Ciws was. Gokdeniz had to be located elsewhere. That's why I mentioned the relations between Usa and Pakistan.


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## Quwa

The FL-3000N and RAM were both on offer (RAM via Germany), but the PN has clearly opted for a gun-based CIWS across both the MILGEM and the 054A/P. So it's clearly a technical decision more so than political.

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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> The FL-3000N and RAM were both on offer (RAM via Germany), but the PN has clearly opted for a gun-based CIWS across both the MILGEM and the 054A/P. So it's clearly a technical decision more so than political.


which is a pattern, if RAM was available it should have been the choice


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## Tamiyah

ziaulislam said:


> which is a pattern, if RAM was available it should have been the choice


PN knows better. Better go with option which has no string attached.

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## Muhammad Omar

Tamiyah said:


> PN knows better. Better go with option which has no string attached.



In war the equipment and technical specifications that matters not the strings we have strings attached with F-16's as well

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## MIRauf

Oscar said:


> Countermeasures are in the works involving a known CIWS used on US made ships; but currently no effective one exists.



Energy ( light beam ) based ?


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## SQ8

MIRauf said:


> Energy ( light beam ) based ?


No
Guided projectile.


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## Quwa

ziaulislam said:


> which is a pattern, if RAM was available it should have been the choice


RAM has its appeal, but bear in mind, you're now dealing with lots of little missiles and their individual shelf-life. If in 5-10 years you need to refresh your stocks and the US or EU embargo you, you're done. It's also an issue of high cost, which applies to the FL-3000N as well (vs. other options). 

Looks like the Jinnah Class is stepping away from guided Western munitions where possible, even though fancy kits were on offer from MBDA and Leonardo.

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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> RAM has its appeal, but bear in mind, you're now dealing with lots of little missiles and their individual shelf-life. If in 5-10 years you need to refresh your stocks and the US or EU embargo you, you're done. It's also an issue of high cost, which applies to the FL-3000N as well (vs. other options).
> 
> Looks like the Jinnah Class is stepping away from guided Western munitions where possible, even though fancy kits were on offer from MBDA and Leonardo.


Which really mean that ibdigentor joint venture must be sought..
As all ships even the smaller one will need a RAM rather than gun based CIWS

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> Which really mean that ibdigentor joint venture must be sought..
> As all ships even the smaller one will need a RAM rather than gun based CIWS


It may have to do with economy of scale and lack of finding. I do however wonder that if we get our teeth into HOBS missiles whether this could be utilized for a generalized defensive role with local manufacturing.
A


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## khanasifm

Pn harpoons can still be on some western platform, Turkish and danish platform are only options 

Lastly not sure if newer agosta -90 are capable of sub launch harpoon but older a-70 had that capability 

Pn has almost 100 plus harpoons and they would need a platform to continue their deployment till they run out of life or are used in training


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## Cool_Soldier

Two ships are coming from Damen, I think.
Why not install these on those ships.


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## Armchair

US CIWS is only 20mm which is effective against regular sized, subsonic anti-ship missiles. But what about the Brahmos? It's huge and supersonic. It will not be stopped by the 20mm which will mean that even after a successful hit, the debris will be kinetic enough and have enough mass to damage the ship. 

Now, Turkey has a weapon which is a copy of the millenium gun, something like 35mm, if memory serves me right. It has the mass and kinetics to stop a supersonic heavy missile much better. If this can be coupled with a Turkic close-in SAM, you have a winner. 

Problem with Chinese equipment, now they are exhorbitantly priced, often unreliable operationally. 

If only Pak would develop its own SAM systems. PN, PA and PAF could have all benefited.

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## Turan09

Armchair said:


> US CIWS is only 20mm which is effective against regular sized, subsonic anti-ship missiles. But what about the Brahmos? It's huge and supersonic. It will not be stopped by the 20mm which will mean that even after a successful hit, the debris will be kinetic enough and have enough mass to damage the ship.
> 
> Now, Turkey has a weapon which is a copy of the millenium gun, something like 35mm, if memory serves me right. It has the mass and kinetics to stop a supersonic heavy missile much better. If this can be coupled with a Turkic close-in SAM, you have a winner.
> 
> Problem with Chinese equipment, now they are exhorbitantly priced, often unreliable operationally.
> 
> If only Pak would develop its own SAM systems. PN, PA and PAF could have all benefited.



I want to add some info, 
1) You are talking about Korkut-D - Gökdeniz And yes it is 35 mm. And it is not a copy it is original Turkish Design.
2)Korkut-D-Gökdeniz has special ammunition called ''Atom'' And Turkish defence Industry is really proud of this new ammunation because they say ATOM dont just tear to pieces... it creates a ''special barriel'' against cruise missiles And destroy them with this way. Imagine like cruise missiles will hit a wall of special 35mm ammunition. And thanks to that warships will be protected.

So it would be a good solution against Brahmos but we shouldnt forget, it is the last Defence of warships.

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## Armchair

There is no harm in buying off a design from the Europeans. I believe that is what happened. Its a Millenium Gun CIWS


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## Turan09

Armchair said:


> There is no harm in buying off a design from the Europeans. I believe that is what happened. Its a Millenium Gun CIWS



Of course there is no harm, for example we get some tect transfer about T-129 from İtaly, (which it wasnt a secret) but as far as I know Gökdeniz and Korkut (land version) is original Turkish design. Are you Saying this ''copy'' thing just because they both 35mm? Or do you have any other info?


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## Armchair

Turan09 said:


> Of course there is no harm, for example we get some tect transfer about T-129 from İtaly, (which it wasnt a secret) but as far as I know Gökdeniz and Korkut (land version) is original Turkish design. Are you Saying this ''copy'' thing just because they both 35mm? Or do you have any other info?



The specs (not only just calibre) are very similar.


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## Turan09

Armchair said:


> The specs (not only just calibre) are very similar.



So? There is so many similar weapon systems in World (tanks etc) that wont make Gökdeniz a copy. Very Similar... might be... but copy? No. (There wasnt any technology transfer btw)


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## cabatli_53

Armchair said:


> The specs (not only just calibre) are very similar.



Bro, Both weapon uses same Oerlikon 35mm barrel but Gökdeniz uses twin barrel and domestic feeding mechanism to improve the effectiveness. Gökdeniz Barrels are being produced by MKEK in Turkiye. BTW, German Milenium guns was tested by German engineers in Turkiye. If there is a similarity of design between guns, It is about visual inspiration. Otherwise, None of Aselsan engineers have any idea about German Milenium guns technically.

An image from Milenium gun test carried out in Turkiye.

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## cabatli_53

The GÖKDENİZ CIWS System was designed and manufactured by the cooperation between TÜBİTAK - SAGE and MKEK (Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation) and Aselsan was the Main Contractor of the project. GÖKDENİZ CIWS System was equipped with Airburst Munition (ParM/ATOM) programmed with ‘35mm Mod 95 Airburst Munition’ code by MKEK. The system will enable the most effective air defence against anti-ship guided missiles, Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAV), Aircrafts and Helicopters. It will be efficient against close asymmetrical surface naval threats as well. GÖKDENİZ will be able to conduct target acquisition, identification, tracking and destruction fully autonomously. The 3-Dimensional Search Radar, Fire Control Radar and E/O sensors within the system will enable the efficient utilization of GÖKDENİZ at night and under adverse weather conditions. The system could be operated under the control of an operator and *it is also able to fulfil its tasks fully automatically, without requiring the intervention of an operator.* With the help of the Automatic Linkless Ammunition Feed Mechanism within the system, munition in two different types could be fed to the system and switching between munition types is possible. GÖKDENİZ demonstrated its capabilities at the ballistic tests conducted in May 2018 with the support of the SSB and the TNFC; a high-speed target aircraft simulating a guided missile attack was fired and crashed during this test.

Utilizing the matured sub-systems of the KORKUT Self Propelled Air Defence Gun System, the serial production deliveries to Turkish Land Forces of which started in March 2019 (3 Weapon System Vehicles and 1 Command Control Vehicle), GÖKDENİZ was adopted to sea conditions during the development process and was brought to a size capable of being installed within the I Class Frigates. Different from KORKUT-D, the barrel of the gun is stabilized at the back of the turret and the swept area was narrowed. The same weapon and ammunition (*MKEK/ÇANSAŞ product 35mm KDC-02 automatic gun) is being used by KORKUT and GÖKDENİZ. A total of 200 ammunitions could be carried in the the ammunition boxes at the right and left sides of the front of the GÖKDENİZ CIWS turret. According to the information we received, on account of the smart ammunition utilization, GÖKDENİZ could be effective at lower ammunition different from the other CIWS systems such as the rapid shot Phalanx and Goalkeeper CIWS. It has been mentioned that 200 missiles are sufficient for an average of 5-6 engagements including the supersonic anti-ship guided missile types.* In case the ammunition in the boxes runs out, the ammunition feed is actualized simultaneously by two personnel from the lids at the sides. The ammunition could be fed to the turret again in less than a total of 10 minutes in the form of ammunition clips of five pieces. 

The indigenous electrical servo systems manufactured by Aselsan are being utilized in GÖKDENİZ. The top part is fully independent from the turret and it is stabilized. The turret is already stabilized. The Automatic Linkless Ammunition Feed System is similar with the one in the KORKUT System. In fact, it is the same sub-system but while KORKUT features a feeder mechanism under the armor without getting out of the vehicle, in GÖKDENİZ the missile feeder mechanism is designed in a way to feed over the turret from the top. The reason behind this is based on the requirement for not allowing penetration to the deck of the ship as not all ships have under-decks available for penetration. For example, the under-deck of the I Class Frigate does not allow penetration.

As all the sub-systems are placed within the turret and since power-related units are located under the turret, GÖKDENİZ CIWS could be easily installed to a surface platform as it also does not require any penetration to the under-body/under-deck. Expressed that it could be installed over the ship and availed directly to utilization, GÖKDENİZ CIWS is capable of operating fully autonomously according to the selected configuration with the MAR-D Search Radar over it as well. MAR-D is the same with the land version, yet there is an increase in the angles of its coverage area. After MAR-D accomplishes its target acquisition, the system tracks the anti-ship guided missiles targeting the ship. Then it utilizes the E/O camera and radar in a hybrid form, heads toward the target and processes the shooting decision. According to the information we gathered, GÖKDENİZ CIWS is integrated to ADVENT and GENESIS CMS, too. One of the two operator consoles on the system is designed in the structure of a remote console integrated to the CMS, and the other is designed in order to be located at the selected region as the own weapon console of GÖKDENİZ. The full control of the system could be accomplished over both consoles. 

The data collected by the search radar over GÖKDENİZ could be utilized also for the other weapons over the ship. It is possible to transfer these data to the CMS. The tracking radar could also be used in order to direct another weapon. The system could receive engagement via other radars over the ship with the data provided by the CMS and head towards the target. It could fire the target displayed by the other E/O sensors over the ship. This capability constitutes the most critical feature of GÖKDENİZ compared with other CIWS systems. Moreover, GÖKDENİZ is capable of executing surface naval threat engagement via the radar and E/O radar both over the ship and over itself. In fact, the main reason behind the system’s being named as GÖKDENİZ (SKYSEA) is its capability of engagement to targets in the sky and at sea. 

Even though such capability does not exist in our country yet, the utilization of a single barrel, revolver type rotary feeder weapon system as the one used in the Millennium CIWS manufactured by Rheinmetall is possible in the GÖKDENİZ System. In this case, as the single barrel will cover less space, the volume of the turret will be decreased to a certain extent and the weight of the system will be reduced. Although, the presently utilized double barrel KDC-02 automatic gun has certain advantages. The twin gun is critical in terms of redundant operations, the firing continues with the single barrel when the gun is stuck. Another advantage is that the measures should be adopted, and active sensors should be used for the cooling of the drum in the rotary drum weapon systems referred as the revolver type, and this complicates the weapon in terms of operation and maintenance. Though the revolver type is a higher-level weapon as they have a relatively new design and new technology, as the single barrel is excessively heated when fired rapidly, a water-cooling system is required for the barrel. Therefore, from a technological perspective, though it has an older design compared with the single barrel, the revolver type rotary feeder weapon in the Millennium CIWS, the KDC-02 automatic guns proved themselves and they have quite significant advantages in terms of both maintenance echelon and logistics.

Within the scope of the Capability Demonstration activity, GÖKDENİZ CIWS was integrated to the TNFC training ship TCG Sokullu Mehmet Paşa (A-577) in 2018. The depression angle of -5 was sufficient as it was an on-board configuration at the KORKUT turret. But when it was installed over a ship, it was observed that the -5 degrees was not convenient for compensating the swaying of the ship. Therefore, the turret was placed over the ship in an inclined position. In line with the information we gathered, this layout configuration was only used for the tests over the TCG Sokullu Mehmet Paşa training ship and no such demand is in question for the time being. In its current form, the GÖKDENİZ CIWS turret is capable of descending and ascending to -15 and +85 degrees. At the ballistic tests carried out on May 4, 2018, two types of shooting - slow and fast targets - yet 3 types of targets were used. Two types of slow targets were shot and within this scope a target similar to the Harpoon Surface to Surface Guided Missile was shot as well. Over 6 drones were shot down during the shooting of the slow targets. The rapid target conducting sea-skimming simulation and approaching the ship under 50 feet (15,24m) with high speed was shot twice (the Banshee Jet 80 target aircraft manufactured by Qinetiq, with two turbojet engines with 40kg propulsion power over it and capable of executing attack scenarios at an altitude of 5m). 

*According to the latest information we received, GÖKDENİZ is designed in a way to be effective against kamikaze drones conducting swarm attacks and supersonic anti-ship guided missiles similar to BRAHMOS. The design of the system is executed to fully enable efficiency against supersonic targets as well and both the target acquisition and tracking ranges of GÖKDENİZ is at the level that allows acquisition, tracking and shooting of the targets at the speed of Mach 3 and over. Analyses and simulations regarding this issue were conducted and striking probabilities were estimated. No problems occurred related to this subject. In line with the information we gathered, execution of additional ballistic tests in the near future with GÖKDENİZ CIWS is planned and also conducting ballistic tests against supersonic targets (if provided) is aimed. *

The total weight of the Close-In Weapon System for GÖKDENİZ Naval Platforms is expected to be around 8,5 tons including the ammunition and two operator consoles. We learned that Aselsan is currently conducting negotiations on the delivery of GÖKDENİZ for both I Class Frigates and the DİMDEG Fleet Replenishment Ship. By the way, the very first export of GÖKDENİZ was made to one of the Turkic Republics countries. According to the information we received, GÖKDENİZ will be utilized in a corvette type platform of the related country. 80% of GÖKDENİZ is presently composed of indigenous parts, the remaining 20% is not composed of critical foreign parts and they could be provided through multiple sources. As all the critical parts of GÖKDENİZ is fully indigenous, no export-related problems are expected.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...us-solutions-make-their-debut-at-idef-19-3555

Land based variant of GökDeniz called Korkut proved effectivenes with 35mm ATOM munitions in Land Forces.

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## cabatli_53

I think Pakistani Milgems will be one of the most advanced and capable corvettes compared to rival ships. The armaments to be installed on those corvettes will create a massive firepower in both defensive and attacking purposes. 16cell VLS, Cruise missile launch capability, 8+SSM, advanced CIWS, 3D radar, sonar, torpedo defense system, network centric command control which make other Milgems to be operated as the fingers of one hand on seas.





The image presents the contribution of Turkish industry into Tf-2000 destroyer program in terms of subsystem level. Not only striking but also defensive missiles will be provided by national institutes. In that image, It is showed that VL tubes (“Dikey Atım Sistemi-MDAS” typed on image) will fire Turkish cruise missile called Gezgin (“Seyir Füzesi” typed on image) which will be TomaHawk equivalent. Same national launchers will fire national long range surface to air missiles called Siper (“Satıhtan Havaya Güdümlü Mermi” typed on image) which will have a range around 120km. CIWS system seems Phlanax but Gökdeniz will replace them. I posted this image to introduce the capabilities of national industry in subsystem level to tell How big opportunities Pakistan and Turkiye are going to have in following 4-5 years. I believe Pakistan will proceed to cooperate with Turkiye for bigger platforms like Tf-2000 when Construction of Milgem came to the end. Fleet tanker, Agosta submarine upgrade, mini-sub cooperation and Milgem deals are the reference to our strong partnership ambitious in naval field.

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## CHI RULES

cabatli_53 said:


> I think Pakistani Milgems will be one of the most advanced and capable corvettes compared to rival ships. The armaments to be installed on those corvettes will create a massive firepower in both defensive and attacking purposes. 16cell VLS, Cruise missile launch capability, 8+SSM, advanced CIWS, 3D radar, sonar, torpedo defense system, network centric command control which make other Milgems to be operated as the fingers of one hand on seas.
> 
> View attachment 572561
> 
> The image presents the contribution of Turkish industry into Tf-2000 destroyer program in terms of subsystem level. Not only striking but also defensive missiles will be provided by national institutes. In that image, It is showed that VL tubes (“Dikey Atım Sistemi-MDAS” typed on image) will fire Turkish cruise missile called Gezgin (“Seyir Füzesi” typed on image) which will be TomaHawk equivalent. Same national launchers will fire national long range surface to air missiles called Siper (“Satıhtan Havaya Güdümlü Mermi” typed on image) which will have a range around 120km. CIWS system seems Phlanax but Gökdeniz will replace them. I posted this image to introduce the capabilities of national industry in subsystem level to tell How big opportunities Pakistan and Turkiye are going to have in following 4-5 years. I believe Pakistan will proceed to cooperate with Turkiye for bigger platforms like Tf-2000 when Construction of Milgem came to the end. Fleet tanker, Agosta submarine upgrade, mini-sub cooperation and Milgem deals are the reference to our strong partnership ambitious in naval field.



Sir one major aspect of the Milgem which is much important is it's stealthiness which is much better than any existing Pak platform so it shall be difficult to be targeted from long range ASHMs by enemy.

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## cabatli_53



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## Test7

Allegedly the welding ceremony of the first Jinnah Class vessel will take place at the end of this month.
P.s: The ceremony will also include the delivery of TCG Kinaliada, the fourth ship of the Turkish Navy.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175425384374046728

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## Imran Khan

Test7 said:


> Allegedly the welding ceremony of the first Jinnah Class vessel will take place at the end of this month.
> P.s: The ceremony will also include the delivery of TCG Kinaliada, the fourth ship of the Turkish Navy.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175425384374046728


give me a hug man

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## Lone Ranger

Imran Khan said:


> give me a hug man

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## Imran Khan

Lone Ranger said:


>


like this hug will damage his and mine reputation in our societies . i asked him hug like brothers

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## cabatli_53

Advent, new generation network centric command control center installed on 4th Milgem called KinalıAda and trials have completed with success. Tf-2000 destroyers will also receve same network centric command control system.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Pakistan MİLGEM Corvette begins construction*
by
Contact Anil directly
-
September 28, 2019
0


Share



Pakistan and Turkey issued last year by the contract signing ceremony of the hair cutting ceremony for the first of the 4 pieces MILGEM Corvette, will be performed the ceremony to be held September 29. On the same day, Turkey's MİLGEM Project, which produced the fourth corvette TCG Kınalıada (F-514) corvettes from the Turkish Naval Forces Command ceremony will be held.

The design of the MILGEM Corvettes exported to Pakistan has been modified at the request of the Pakistan Navy. In this context; Two of them will be in Istanbul Shipyard Command and two of them will be produced in Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan. ASFAT A.Ş. The first MİLGEM corvette to be built for Pakistan under its main contractor is estimated to be delivered between 2022 and 2023.


https://savunmasanayist.com/haberle...9jRRfAROq0kpIJwFvZfPzY9cXB2BqxcRQRpczzBFtXNdA

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## dBSPL

Steel cutting ceremony will be held today for the Pakistan Navy's first Milgem-based light frigate. May Allah(cc) perpetuate our oneness.

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## cabatli_53

I believe IP rights of Milgem to be shared with Pakistan will boost Pakistani naval industry to design/develop Pakistani corvette/frigates under a strong cooperation with Turkiye and It will be an important milestone to proceed deeper cooperations with Turkiye. After this process, Pakistan and Turkiye will have a very strong agenda to achieve common goals to design/develop indigenous destroyers and AIP submarines having capability of launching national long range land attack cruise missiles. I think Milgem collaboration/Agosta sub upgrade/Fleet tanker/Mini-sub programs are a good start to step in more strategic targets...

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## Viper27

Any idea when will we receive the first of the MILGEM, 54AP and Chinese subs?


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## Haris Ali2140

Viper27 said:


> Any idea when will we receive the first of the MILGEM, 54AP and Chinese subs?


Mainly after 2025.


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## cabatli_53

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Mainly after 2025.



First ship will be launched on sea in 2021, to be delivered in 2023. Other ships will be delivered at intervals of 6 months...

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## Haris Ali2140

cabatli_53 said:


> First ship will be launched on sea in 2021, to be delivered in 2023. Other ships will be delivered at intervals of 6 months...
> 
> View attachment 581656
> View attachment 581657


I was also talking about subs.

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## Imran Khan

cabatli_53 said:


> First ship will be launched on sea in 2021, to be delivered in 2023. Other ships will be delivered at intervals of 6 months...
> 
> View attachment 581656
> View attachment 581657


finally we see it before we die

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## dBSPL

Some highlights from Erdogan's statements:

In the first part of the speech, Erdoğan thank the entire team who worked under the MILGEM program and pray for the first ship to be made for Pakistan. It was also commemorated the victory of Preveze due to the anniversary. The main part of the speech includes information on the Turkish defense industry localization rate and engineering capacity. In addition, reference was made to the main and subcontractor companies within the scope of MILGEM program.

A few important details caught my attention.

First one is about our submarine project, "*which is designed for the needs of the Turkish Navy and our brotherly country*!, in progress" , said by Erdoğan.

- Also he said that Izmir shipyard will be expanded. Thus, three large facilities will serve within the navy comand. (Currently Gölcük shipyard command specializes in submarine construction, while Pendik shipyard command specializes in surface platforms.) Integration with civil shipyards will be deepened. We plan to expand our share in the world market. "We will have domestic products in every area from ship propulsion systems to cannon, torpedo, missile systems or all navionic areas." he said. And of course , some rhetorics and messages given:

- "We will never forget the implicit embargo imposed on us when we want to reach qualified systems in the past."

- "We have reduced our external dependence rate from 80% to 30% in the defense industry. Together with the projects in the tender process, the total size of the defense industry projects has exceeded 75 billion dollars. There are currently over 700 active projects in the defense industry. There are 5 Turkish company among the 100 largest defense companies in the world, hopefully this number will increase soon. Our goal is to get rid of the critical external dependence completely in 2023. Another reason for all these investments is to ensure that our brotherly countries benefit from this accumulation when needed, and to deter those who want to disrupt our unity and integrity. The cause of most problems we faced in the last 6 years is to dissuade Turkey from this purpose. If they awakened the sleeping giant, they will suffer the consequences. "

The admiral of the Pakistani navy and also Erdoğan reserved a place in theirs speech for Cemmu-Kashmir . Some of Erdogan's statements:

- 8 million people are sentenced to live in like an open air prison. There is a situation just like in Palestine. What is humanity doing against this tragedy?

- Except Pakistan, only Turkey and Malaysia spoke for our Kashmiri brothers, in UN Assembly. We need to understand this silence well, so there are other scenarios in minds?

- (probably he referring to the Malaysia-Pakistan-Turkey trilateral) In our minds, it will be only to stand by the righteous and innocent people . In our belief, there is a world where the righteous is strong, we're not condemned to a world where the powerful crush the righteous.. We will continue to fight together for this.






When the entire ceremony is uploaded to the Internet, I will edit and add this message. In short, It was an important ceremony for show our friendship and common understanding to the audience.

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## Sulman Badshah

dBSPL said:


> First one is about our submarine project, "*which is designed for the needs of the Turkish Navy and our brotherly country*!, in progress" , said by Erdoğan.


Pakistan recently went to Turkey regarding midget submarines (They might be talking about that one)

here is Bilal (quwa) article about it 

https://quwa.org/2017/05/23/pakistan-mini-submarines/

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bol news reporting that 4 milgem handed over to pakistan


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## ali_raza

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bol news reporting that 4 milgem handed over to pakistan


hahahaha


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## Haris Ali2140

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bol news reporting that 4 milgem handed over to pakistan


Hum news covered it good. Gave time line and also referenced TOT.


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## TsAr

cabatli_53 said:


> First ship will be launched on sea in 2021, to be delivered in 2023. Other ships will be delivered at intervals of 6 months...
> 
> View attachment 581656
> View attachment 581657


Any idea what changes were requested by PN and what sub systems are being incorporated on them?


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## cabatli_53

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan recently went to Turkey regarding midget submarines (They might be talking about that one)
> 
> here is Bilal (quwa) article about it
> 
> https://quwa.org/2017/05/23/pakistan-mini-submarines/




"We have many more projects to strengthen our navy, and work on the diesel-electric submarine project, which will meet the needs of both our country and friendly states, is ongoing," Erdogan said.

Source:AA

He is talking about 3000t class MilDen indigenous submarine program.

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## eagleeye

another video about the ceremony with a speak of pakistan navel officer

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yoKMzOQoVdGQ#

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

cabatli_53 said:


> "We have many more projects to strengthen our navy, and work on the diesel-electric submarine project, which will meet the needs of both our country and friendly states, is ongoing," Erdogan said.
> 
> Source:AA
> 
> He is talking about 3000t class MilDen indigenous submarine program.
> 
> View attachment 581715


TFX, MilDen etc. are the ultimate stuffs!! If Pak is even after MilGem, ATAK etc. I am pretty sure these projects are too lucrative for Pak to not to participate....

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## The Ronin

On 29 September, the Istanbul Shipyard held the steel-cutting ceremony of the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) first MILGEM corvette. The Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan presided over the event alongside various government, naval and industry officials from Turkey and Pakistan.

The PN currently has four MILGEM corvettes on order, with all four ships due for delivery to the PN by 2023-2024. Construction of the first ship will last 54 months, but the remaining three ships will follow the first in quicker succession, i.e., at six month intervals of one another (ASFAT A.S).

Under the contract, which was signed in 2018, two of the ships will be built in Turkey, while the remaining two in Pakistan. Pakistan will also receive “_complete transfer of technology and the transfer of intellectual property rights for the design of these ships._”

The fourth ship was to be a new frigate class (i.e., Jinnah-class) jointly designed by the primary contractor, ASFAT A.S. (Military Factories and Shipyards Management Inc), and Pakistan’s Maritime Technologies Complex (MTC). However, it appears that the new frigate design will apply to all four ships.

During AMAN-19, the Pakistan Navy’s biennial multi-national exercise, the PN Chief of Naval Staff (CNS), Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, reportedly outlined that the PN’s MILGEMs will be equipped with the Chinese HQ-16 surface-to-air missile (SAM) system through a 16-cell vertical launch system (VLS).

The VLS will be installed at the fore of the ship, behind the main gun. In addition, the PN’s MILGEMs will deploy a modified version of the GENESIS combat management system (CMS).

The PN MILGEMs will also deploy an “indigenously developed missile system,” which could be the Harba subsonic dual-anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM) and land-attack cruise missile (LACM). However, the most recent Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) report also disclosed the development of a new supersonic missile for the PN, so the PN’s MILGEMs may deploy something other than the Harba ASCM/LACM as well.

The CNS did not specify if the inclusion of VLS was limited to solely the fourth ship, implying that all four MILGEM ships will be configured along identical lines. One indication for this change could be that in 2016, the PN was expected to procure four MILGEM Ada corvettes configured along similar lines to the Turkish Navy’s ships at $1 billion US. However, the deal is now reportedly worth $1.5 billion US.

The PN’s forthcoming Type 054A/P frigates will also deploy the HQ-16, but through 32 VLS cells. All four Type 054A/Ps are due by 2021. Interestingly, the Pakistan Army also inducted the HQ-16/LY-80, which shows that there is a measure of commonality between the Navy and Army on SAMs.

*Notes & Comments:*

In addition to the significant modifications (which will at least apply to the fourth ship, if not all ships) is the fact that Pakistan owns the intellectual property (IP) rights to the design. Thus, it appears that the PN will commit to the design for the long-term and, potentially, add more ships of this type in the future.

The Jinnah-class corvette/light frigate is a fully multi-mission design. The HQ-16/LY-80 — which could have a range of 40 km or, if the PN opts for the newer configuration, 70 km – provides anti-air warfare (AAW) coverage. In addition, the Harba ASCM/LACM would provide long-range anti-shipping and stand-off range land-attack capability. If the Jinnah-class arrives by the time the PN deploys its supersonic missile (which is likely to be an ASCM), it could have a varied – and difficult to stop – anti-shipping load-out as well.

https://quwa.org/2019/09/29/steel-c...Ic3WOwxJZdQ5M11E-K9zA_8VpS8HvRA46nU4fEoyLqMMU

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

In entire World and of all Muslim Countries I Respect n Love Turkey after Pakistan or with Pakistan . Pakistan has many enemies , few good friends like China ,Saudi Arabia but only One Brother ( Elder Brother ) i.e Turkey .Alot of Love and Repect for Turkish Nation . ON Cyprus or Armenia (Azerbaijan issue too ) we are with Turkey

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## Devil Soul

*Turkey kicks off construction of warship for Pakistan*
*By anadolu agency*
Sep.30,2019
_





*Turkish president decries how no other countries besides Turkey and Malaysia have spoken out on Kashmir issue
ANKARA: *Turkey President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Sunday attended a dual ceremony commissioning a new Turkish naval ship while starting construction of a ship for Pakistan’s navy.

Turkey is one of 10 countries worldwide able to build, design, and maintain warships using its own national capabilities, President Erdogan told the ceremony for the TCG Kinaliada, commissioned today for the Turkish navy, and a MILGEM (Turkish national warship program)-class ship being built for Pakistan.

In his speech, Erdogan said he hopes the Kinaliad, an Ada-class corvette, will benefit the Turkish nation and its sailors and further hopes Pakistan, a friendly sister nation to Turkey, will also benefit from the ship whose construction started today.

In July 2018, Pakistan Navy signed a contract for the acquisition of four MILGEM-class ships from Turkey.

“Our navy, rich with glorious victories, is carrying this legacy into the future by further strengthening it,” said Erdogan. Its top-class “equipment, discipline, qualified personnel and all the accomplishments it undertakes” make Turkey proud, he added.

*‘Turkey, Pakistan stand together’*

Erdogan said recent events globally and especially in the Mediterranean point to the need to strengthen Turkey at sea, as in all other areas.

Greece and Greek Cyprus have recently challenged Turkey’s right to use the energy resources of the Eastern Mediterranean, but Turkey has not backed down, and continues to send drill ships to the region with military escorts.






PHOTO: ANADOLU AGENCY

Turkey is resolved to reach heights domestically in all areas including shipbuilding, artillery, missiles, torpedoes, and electronic systems, Erdogan said.

Erdogan said the time is also close for Turkey to build its own fighter jets, just as it has built its own manned and unmanned aerial vehicles and satellites.

“We have not forgotten the time when we could not buy ships, planes and tools that we wanted, even when we wanted to pay for them,” he said.

Erdogan stressed that the corvettes that have been put into service to date have successfully fulfilled their duties by taking part in numerous national and international exercises.

“We have many more projects to strengthen our navy, and work on the diesel-electric submarine project, which will meet the needs of both our country and friendly states, is ongoing,” Erdogan said.

*Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia announce English TV channel to ‘counter Islamophobia’*

Erdogan stressed that Turkey’s dependence on foreign trade in the defense industry has dropped from 80% to 30%.

“Today, we have five firms among the world’s top 100 defense companies, and hopefully this number will continue to climb.

“Our goal is to eliminate our dependence on the foreign defense industry completely by 2023,” Turkey’s centennial, he said.

*Kashmir issue*

Commenting on the Kashmir dispute, Erdogan decried how no other countries besides Turkey and Malaysia have spoken out on the issue.

The India Occupied Jammu and Kashmir has been facing a clampdown since August 5, when the Indian government revoked Article 370 of the Indian Constitution, which conferred it a special status.

Hundreds of people, mostly political leaders, have been detained or arrested by authorities since the Indian government made the move.
_

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## xbat

i see Gokdeniz CIWS on pakistani milgem pic.

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## BRAVO_

it seems in current UN meetings Pakistan Turkey and Malaysia all three have cooked something big and i am expecting a joint venture in shape of TFX, because in July Dr. Mahatir Mohammad already show his willingness to participate in Turkish aerospace projects, more involvement of partner countries mean less cost, more resources for research and execution of project, commercially more viability, it would be a win win situation for all three...

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## python-000

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> In entire World and of all Muslim Countries I Respect n Love Turkey after Pakistan or with Pakistan . Pakistan has many enemies , few good friends like China ,Saudi Arabia but only One Brother ( Elder Brother ) i.e Turkey .Alot of Love and Repect for Turkish Nation . ON Cyprus or Armenia (Azerbaijan issue too ) we are with Turkey


U forget Russia my brother...


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

python-000 said:


> U forget Russia my brother...


Respected brother Russia untill today not came open . Although Pakistan Russia relations improved after OBL Incident (2011) and especially after 2014 visit of Russian defence minister but still Russia cant be campared with Turkey , China , Saudi Arabia . We hope our relations with Russia builds further which are Thanks to ALLAH on positive trajectory . America Indo - Pacific command strategy will ultimately bring Pakistan Russia much closer in future IA .

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## aziqbal

Thanks Turkey and I love Erdogan 

But please make this with 48 months and not 15 years like you did your own 

The 4 for Turkey Ada class started in 2005 and last one was only just commissioned 

Having said that we should have gone for Istanbul class with VLS

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## Maarkhoor

aziqbal said:


> Istanbul class with VLS


Nothing less.

@Rashid Mahmood


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## Sulman Badshah

Viper27 said:


> Any idea when will we receive the first of the MILGEM, 54AP and Chinese subs?


Milgem 2023 
First Submarine 2023
Type 054A ??


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## Viper27

Sulman Badshah said:


> Milgem 2023
> First Submarine 2023
> Type 054A ??



Shouldn’t we be getting the first Type 54 and Hangor sub by the beginning of 2021?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Sulman Badshah said:


> Milgem 2023
> First Submarine 2023
> Type 054A ??


All 4 Type 054A/P frigates by 2021 end 
Agosta first upgraded Submarine 2020 
Agosta 2nd upgraded submarine 2021 
2 Milgems before 2023 end

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## Sulman Badshah

Viper27 said:


> Shouldn’t we be getting the first Type 54 and Hangor sub by the beginning of 2021?


Hangor class deliveries are from 2023-2028

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## Stealth



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## dBSPL

aziqbal said:


> Thanks Turkey and I love Erdogan
> 
> But please make this with 48 months and not 15 years like you did your own
> 
> The 4 for Turkey Ada class started in 2005 and last one was only just commissioned
> 
> Having said that we should have gone for Istanbul class with VLS


Milgem corvettes did not have a continuous construction process.

The first two ships F-511 and F-512 were launched in 36 months. The period 2005-2011 can be seen as the most important stage of development of the MILGEM program. With the experience gained during the construction of the first two ships and additional sub-system indigenization deemed necessary, it was turned into an excellent engineering package.

But after that, due to planning errors and the wrong strategies of policy makers, mass production could not be started in the project. The tender given to the private shipyard was canceled after a while. During the same period, turbulent processes such as Gezi events took place. We could not take any kind of step, in a ready and finished project . Anyway, as a result, the project continued with the Istanbul Pendik shipyard command for the third and fourth ships.

The construction period for the last two ships is 18 months. The reason for the long ship acceptance tests of the last ship could be ADVENT and Atmaca-SSM upgrades.

Accordingly, the 18-24 months range is very realistic target for the Pakistan Navy. As far as I know, the other two ships will be built in Karachi. As an example, Turkey gave an undertaking to launch the first ship in the 10th month to Saudia Arabia's tender. ( it was variant of ADA class corvette. )

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## cabatli_53

Gökdeniz CIWS on Pakistani Milgem

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## dBSPL

cabatli_53 said:


> Gökdeniz CIWS on Pakistani Milgem
> 
> View attachment 581758


I think the important question is, which VLS will be used on ship? Turkey's VLS project or Chinese one ?

In the long term , the MILGEM-Pakistan project will allow Pakistan to become the 11th or 12th country in the world which can develop and produce indigenous frigates.

However, another important detail is that we can see the Chinese and Turkish navionic systems for the first time on a common platform. If these three countries move forward with a common strategy, they can provide simultaneous activity in both Russian, EU and US potential markets in the future.

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## cabatli_53

dBSPL said:


> I think the important question is, which VLS will be used on ship? Turkey's VLS project or Chinese one ?
> 
> In the long term , the MILGEM-Pakistan project will allow Pakistan to become the 11th or 12th country in the world which can develop and produce indigenous frigates.
> 
> However, another important detail is that we can see the Chinese and Turkish navionic systems for the first time on a common platform. If these three countries move forward with a common strategy, they can provide simultaneous activity in both Russian, EU and US potential markets in the future.



The SAM missiles to be installed on corvette will be Chinese so I think the VLS will also be purchased from China bro.

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## Quwa

cabatli_53 said:


> Gökdeniz CIWS on Pakistani Milgem
> 
> View attachment 581758


You can just barely see the VLS, but it's there.

I think @cabatli_53 is witness to the fact that this forum willed the VLS on MILGEM into reality. Let's now proceed to the TF-2000

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## aziqbal

What is it a 8 cell VLS?


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## Quwa

aziqbal said:


> What is it a 8 cell VLS?


16 cell VLS for the HQ-16. The ships will also use an 'indigenous missile system,' so either Harbah or the supersonic missile the PN is developing (as per 2017-2018 MoDP report).

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## aziqbal

Quwa said:


> 16 cell VLS for the HQ-16.



On MILGEM?


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## Quwa

aziqbal said:


> On MILGEM?


Yes.

@aziqbal


> During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.



https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454

The PN came in clutch.

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## The Eagle

Quwa said:


> 16 cell VLS for the HQ-16. The ships will also use an 'indigenous missile system,' so either Harbah or the supersonic missile the PN is developing (as per 2017-2018 MoDP report).



I think Harbah already went onto FACs so most probably, a diversification will take place here in this regard. May be for the last two ships but seems the case for new supersonic Missile.

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## Quwa

The Eagle said:


> I think Harbah already went onto FACs so most probably, a diversification will take place here in this regard. May be for the last two ships but seems the case for new supersonic Missile.


For anti-ship warfare, I'd equip the supersonic ASCM (i.e. on MILGEM, 054A/P, F-22P and the Damen corvettes). Leave land attack to the FACs.

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## The Eagle

Quwa said:


> For anti-ship warfare, I'd equip the supersonic ASCM (i.e. on MILGEM, 054A/P, F-22P and the Damen corvettes). Leave land attack to the FACs.



That my be the case however, I will deploy my battle group in mix & complex weapon offensive. FACs can move around under SAM/AAM cover waiting to off-load for land attack but having the capability of net centric where my forward deployed battleship can take control of weapon in-case FACs can't get closer for favourable range. In the meantime, 054A/P will also carry Harbah beside other limited goodies around and Jinnah class may carry the 16VLS HQ9 with Supersonic Missile in forward deployed mission. F-22P with Damen corvettes can supplement the anti-ship warfare but not necessarily with supersonic ASCM alone. Conclusively, why should I let my enemy guess as what's heading towards them.

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## Cornered Tiger

@Quwa @The Eagle @Sulman Badshah @Rashid Mahmood What is the armament storage capacity for Milgems, Type-054 A/Ps, F-22P or any other ship in/ will be in PN? Which of these ships also deploy Auto-loaders as well?


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## The Eagle

Cornered Tiger said:


> @Quwa @The Eagle @Sulman Badshah @Rashid Mahmood What is the armament storage capacity for Milgems, Type-054 A/Ps, F-22P or any other ship in/ will be in PN? Which of these ships also deploy Auto-loaders as well?



You may be asking for too much my friend beside that, there is less for public domain but say what; couple of these ships may carry an anti-Sub capability beyond one can expect. I hope that it will like hunting in pack like wolf to exhaust your prey to give up.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178636909029085184

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## Sulman Badshah

Detail design mockup of 4 corvette

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## TOPGUN

Outstanding news for PN, a much needed punch.

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## Khafee

TOPGUN said:


> Outstanding news for PN, a much needed punch.


InShaAllah

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## dBSPL

Viper27 said:


> Any idea when will we receive the first of the MILGEM, 54AP and Chinese subs?


Pakistan MILGEM Corvette project actually began on 11 March 2019. scheduled to be delivered the first corvette, August 2023. The first ship will be completed in the 54th month in Turkey. Second ship in Pakistan, 60th month, third ship will be complete in Turkey , 66th months.The last ship will be completed in the 72nd month in Pakistan. The last corvette will be delivered in Karachi in 2025 and will be included in the Pakistan Navy inventory.

https://www.asfat.com.tr/pnmilgemkorvet/

Since it is a highly differentiated variant, it will take a long time for the first ship to be launched. However, after this process, the other ships will begin to launch at 6-month intervals.

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## Quwa

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan MILGEM Corvette project actually began on 11 March 2019. scheduled to be delivered the first corvette, August 2023. The first ship will be completed in the 54th month in Turkey. Second ship in Pakistan, 60th month, third ship will be complete in Turkey , 66th months.The last ship will be completed in the 72nd month in Pakistan. The last corvette will be delivered in Karachi in 2025 and will be included in the Pakistan Navy inventory.
> 
> https://www.asfat.com.tr/pnmilgemkorvet/
> 
> Since it is a highly differentiated variant, it will take a long time for the first ship to be launched. However, after this process, the other ships will begin to launch at 6-month intervals.


Since Pakistan's Maritime Technologies Complex (MTC) bought the design rights, I think we'll see more of these ships in the long-run.

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## cabatli_53

Quwa said:


> You can just barely see the VLS, but it's there.
> 
> I think @cabatli_53 is witness to the fact that this forum willed the VLS on MILGEM into reality. Let's now proceed to the TF-2000




The Tf-2000 destroyer program will be started in 2022/23. Delivery of Pakistani Milgem corvettes will also be completed around 2024/25. It will be good timing to form a joint-venture for giant 7000t Tf-2000 with 64cell national VLS system with quad packable G-40 medium range and Siper long range missiles. Hope to see both nation forming a strong partnership for one of the most challenging platform.

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## TsAr

Quwa said:


> 16 cell VLS for the HQ-16. The ships will also use an 'indigenous missile system,' so either Harbah or the supersonic missile the PN is developing (as per 2017-2018 MoDP report).


I think the Supersonics missile should already be final phase and would be ready to be deployed when these ships are comissioned.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Romania finished the ship construction in 2 years for 2 ships 
I was expecting the Turkish ships would have similar timelines 


2 Ships in 2 Years not 1 Ship in 5 year

Otherwise the deal is quite good


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## polanski

*Turkey begins work on first MILGEM-class corvette for Pakistan Navy*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
30 September 2019
Follow

RSS


Istanbul Naval Shipyard has begun work on the first (MILGEM)-class corvette for the Pakistan Navy (PN).

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, the PN's Chief of the Naval Staff, presided over a steel-cutting ceremony for the vessel held at the shipyard on 29 September.

In July 2018 Turkish defence engineering firm Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret (STM) and other Turkish companies won a tender for the supply of four corvettes of the class to the PN as part of what the then-Turkish National Defence Minister Nurettin Canikli described as the “largest single export [deal] in the history of the Turkish defence industry”.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

aziqbal said:


> Thanks Turkey and I love Erdogan
> 
> But please make this with 48 months and not 15 years like you did your own
> 
> The 4 for Turkey Ada class started in 2005 and last one was only just commissioned
> 
> Having said that we should have gone for Istanbul class with VLS


The delay was due to sabotage by FETO proxy terrorist org members within the Navy. Top project managers and engineers got arrested in false coup acquisitions. After the removal of FETO moles all defense related projects are gaining steams....

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## Amigator

Is VLS system on Pakistani Corvettes are confirmed?


Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The delay was due to sabotage by FETO proxy terrorist org members within the Navy. Top project managers and engineers got arrested in false coup acquisitions. After the removal of FETO moles all defense related projects are gaining steams....


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## khanasifm

Largest order the president comes to greet the customer naval chief [emoji6]

But I think it’s also due to Turkish navy new type launch ??


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## Turan09

khanasifm said:


> Largest order the president comes to greet the customer naval chief [emoji6]
> 
> But I think it’s also due to Turkish navy new type launch ??


No, Istanbul Class isn't ready to launch yet. Erdogan came to cut the first steal of Pakistani Milgem. Now you can feel proud that even your warships are technically builded by another countries president. Brough more weapons from us and Erdogan will work day and night. (Smile)

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## Rashid Mahmood

TheDarkKnight said:


> So all four are jinnah class corvettes now? Is there still going to be a larger frigate ?
> @Rashid Mahmood



Jinnah Class is the name given to the Milgem Class by the PN.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Construction in Turkey is taking too long and this brings down the potency of this system by at least 25%


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## Turan09

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Construction in Turkey is taking too long and this brings down the potency of this system by at least 25%


Quality takes time.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Cornered Tiger said:


> @Quwa @The Eagle @Sulman Badshah @Rashid Mahmood What is the armament storage capacity for Milgems, Type-054 A/Ps, F-22P or any other ship in/ will be in PN? Which of these ships also deploy Auto-loaders as well?



Sorry classified info bro.



Maarkhoor said:


> Nothing less.
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood



Yes.

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## GriffinsRule

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Jinnah Class is the name given to the Milgem Class by the PN.


Per the speech given by the PN chief during the ceremony, he says the Jinnah Class will be produced beyond the 4 Milgem Class frigates.

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## Haris Ali2140

GriffinsRule said:


> Per the speech given by the PN chief during the ceremony, he says the Jinnah Class will be produced beyond the 4 Milgem Class frigates.


Are they frigates or Corvettes???


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## GriffinsRule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Are they frigates or Corvettes???


Not much difference between the two now ... lines are more or less blurred.

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## Cornered Tiger

Sulman Badshah said:


> Detail design mockup of 4 corvette
> 
> View attachment 581812



Either new launchers arrangement for Harba or the newer supersonic Anti-Ship Missile. Interesting.


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## Sulman Badshah

Cornered Tiger said:


> Either new launchers arrangement for Harba or the newer supersonic Anti-Ship Missile. Interesting.


those vls are for MRSAM


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## dBSPL

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Are they frigates or Corvettes???


The MILGEM - ADA class was originally designed as a highly deterrent platform in terms of ASW features. As you know, especially the Aegean Sea is surrounded by hundreds of islands and the submarine capacities of the countries in the region are quite high. Therefore, the main technological advantages over the ship are related to magnetic trace and ECM systems.

Class I frigates were designed as multi-role frigates that could provide more effective field defense against close-to-mid air defense and surface targets. While the ATMACA missile system and Genesis Advent allow both ships ( Ada and I class ) to engage land targets, the ability to attack deep land targets will be provided with GEZGIN missiles.

In the Turkish navy, classification is made lower than many other navy. For example, a ship classified as a frigate in many navy is classified as a corvette in the Turkish navy. There are many strategic and technical reasons for this. However, the most important reason we need to know is that meeting the demands of the Turkish Navy during the projects creates a very challenging process.

Today, the LHD project, which you know as TCG Anadolu, started as an LPD project. At the final level of project, ship had become an executable platform for fixed wing aircraft operations on deck.

The ADA class, the first phase of MILGEM, was originally planned as around 1400 tons of ASW corvettes. When the project was completed, it became the world's largest corvette in its class. In the TF2000 project, preliminary reports predicted that the vessel would be around 5000 tons. TF code means Turkish Frigate. However, when it became a ship of approximately 8000 tons in its final form, it was forced to be described as destroyer. 

In short, when we look at the structural differences between the Ada class and the Jinnah class model , it is clear that the ship will be around 2800 to 3000 tons. So it doesn't matter what the classification will be. It will probably be described as a light frigate. The key issue will be the capacity and role of the ship. Given the information on the last pages, the ship will have a full multirole frigate capacity.

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## UzaySan

ziaulislam said:


> I was really hoping for RAM... Seems like pattern that navy doesn't want to get it..on any of its ships


Turkish Ram called SAPAN is under development. But I dont know if it will be ready until Pakistan milgems are ready.

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## cabatli_53

An important point, Tork anti-torpedo torpedo program has almost completed and When It is finished, I believe They will be integrated into Pakistani Agosta submarines. Pakistan has already selected Aselsan Zargana soft kill system. (As a side note, Zargana jammed German DM2A4 torpedos in trials). I don’t know whether surface platforms will be able to launch Tork torpedo defense system but It is for sure that The submarines having this capability to use Tork hard-kill torpedos along with Zargana soft-kill system will almost be untouchable.

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## Bullzz

Turan09 said:


> No, Istanbul Class isn't ready to launch yet. Erdogan came to cut the first steal of Pakistani Milgem. Now you can feel proud that even your warships are technically builded by another countries president. Brough more weapons from us and Erdogan will work day and night. (Smile)



Mr. Erdogan came for the love and respect for Pakistan. We Pakistanis consider Turkey as our second home and have the same love and respect for them.

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## Champion_Usmani

In Istanbul Naval Shipyard September 29, 2019 Sunday with actual ceremony TCG Kınalıada was delivered to the Turkish Navy and Pakistan, the first of two corvettes will be produced in Turkey for the Navy "Pakistan MILGEM Corvette Project 1st Marine Sheet Cutting Ceremony" was held.

Pakistan Navy corvettes will be produced in Turkey, "Pakistan MILGEM Corvette Project 1st Marine Sheet Cutting Ceremony" will be produced in the projected image with the press in the as close air defense system in the Corvette ASELSAN produced by Gökdeniz yhss'n's seems to be favored by Pakistan.






*GÖKDENİZ- Close Air Defense System*
KORKUT Self Propelled Low Altitude Air Defense Weapon  System developed within the scope of the contract executed by the Presidency of Defense Industry (SSB) of the Republic of Turkey , was developed nationally as a result of the adaptation of the Naval Platforms to the Near Air Defense System (YHSS) by ASELSAN at IDEF 2019. was introduced.

GÖKDENİZ, which will provide the most effective coverage of the ship's defenses against Airborne Missiles, Navigation Missiles, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, Airplanes and Helicopters of the ship platforms, especially guided projectiles (G / M), together with the 35mm Particle Ammunition and the ship's self-defense against current weather threats. provides an effective solution.

Gökdeniz; With 3D search radar, fire control radar and E / O sensors on it, it will be able to perform target detection, diagnosis, tracking and destruction in full autonomous conditions. System; it can be operated under operator control, and can perform its tasks fully automatically without the need for operator intervention.

*ADA Class Corvettes First Export Success: Pakistan*
Minister of National Defense Canikli the period, "Pakistan needed by the Navy 4 corvette tender was finalized and we have received this contract as Turkey," the tender with expressions so far in the Turkish defense industry, announced that it is the highest-numbered exports at a time.






Between Turkey and Pakistan signed an agreement for the sale of four Corvettes were thrown Milgem

Rawalpindi representing the Defense Production in Turkey to do a signing ceremony at the Ministry in the town quarter of Minister of National Defense (MND) and Deputy Military Factory and Shipyard Property Corporation (asphaltene) Chairman Suay Alpay, Ministry of Defense Deputy Undersecretary and asphaltene Vice Chairman Yunus Emre Karaosmanoğlu, Deputy Undersecretary of the Ministry of National Defense and Member of the Board asphaltene Ambassador Basat Ozturk, Istanbul Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Erdinc Islamabad's ambassador to Turkey and joined Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul Authority.

Under the agreement signed in September 2018, Pakistan will supply four ships. Two of the ships will be built at the Istanbul Shipyard Command and two will be built in Karachi, Pakistan.

In the first place, a corvette in Istanbul and Karachi will be added to the Pakistani Navy inventory in 2023. The other 2 ships will enter the inventory in 2024.

The production process will last 54 months on the first ship, 60 months on the second ship, 66 months on the third ship and 72 months on the last ship.

https://www.defenceturk.net/pakista...gokdeniz-yakin-hava-savunma-sistemi-koruyacak

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## Champion_Usmani

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Rashid Mahmood @Major Sam @Zarvan


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178699347703275520

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## Haris Ali2140

@Nein @dBSPL @cabatli_53

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## Path-Finder

any info on its radar?


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## Cornered Tiger

Sulman Badshah said:


> those vls are for MRSAM



I am talking about mid-deck 2 x 4 launchers.


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## cabatli_53

Path-Finder said:


> any info on its radar?




Main 3D radar at the top of the mast will guide Gökdeniz with precision target datas. It can also be operated with Aselsan MAR-D radar independantly. The Advent CMS with autonomous decision support fusion is able to determine ship’s priorities based on environmental images created by ship’s sensor in order to guide operators to take quick action in correct time for any defensive or agressive actions against enemy assets.

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## TURUL

The I-class frigate is basically a larger Ada-class with VLS right ? So the 4 milgem ships that Turkey is selling the PakNavy are I-class frigates or am I wrong ?


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## dBSPL

Path-Finder said:


> any info on its radar?


Its 3-dimensional, multi-beam marine platform search radar produced by ASELSAN.It can be used from short range to medium range and is able to detect targets with air and surface surveillance. It is a modular, light and low power consumption radar with active phase array antenna structure and solid state power amplifier modules. Operational features include 3D target search, tracking and classification, sector search, high target location accuracy, and can be used in small ships and attack boats due to its light weight.

Product features:
• 3D air target search and tracking
• 2D surface search and tracking
• Active phase array antenna
• Low Visibility (LPI) Mode
• Solid state sender modules (Send / Receive Modules)
• Doppler processor for moving specification
• FoE detection
• IFF Integration
• Air Cooling
• Sector Dimming and Sector Trimming
• In-Device Testing capability
• Jamming Detection and Direction Finding and Tracking
• Providing realtime Surveillance video
• naval artillery gun Support
• MIL-STD compatibility

Technical Specifications
• Operating Frequency : X-Bant
• Instrumented Range : 100 km
• Minimum range: 50 m
• Coverage: 360º
• Altitude Coverage: -5º / + 70º
• Rise tracking accuracy (rms): <0.6º
• Rotation speed (rpm): 10-60
• Power consumption: <6 kW
• Stabilization: Electronic
• Weight (Above Deck): <350 kg
• Tracking capacity: 200 targets

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## dBSPL

TURUL said:


> The I-class frigate is basically a larger Ada-class with VLS right ? So the 4 milgem ships that Turkey is selling the PakNavy are I-class frigates or am I wrong ?


Very briefly, the Pakistani Navy will be the user of a variant that uses MILGEM infrastructure , but differentiates from Ada class. More like Advanced Ada. This is called the Jinnah class. Subsequently, with the transfer of this infrastructure and tech, the Pakistani Navy will be able to produce advanced variants with its own acquired capacity.

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## TURUL

dBSPL said:


> Very briefly, the Pakistani Navy will be the user of a variant that uses MILGEM infrastructure , but differentiates from Ada class. More like Advanced Ada. This is called the Jinnah class. Subsequently, with the transfer of this infrastructure and tech, the Pakistani Navy will be able to produce advanced variants with its own acquired capacity.


ok thank you, so at the end the Jinnah-class will be similar in size,armament end mission to a I-class

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## Pakhtoon yum

Turan09 said:


> Quality takes time.


Time is of the essence 
If it's not delivered on time then it's not worth it. The actual time frame shouldve been 2020-2022


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## CHI RULES

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Time is of the essence
> If it's not delivered on time then it's not worth it. The actual time frame shouldve been 2020-2022


Sir considering the Indo Pak tensions we immediately require some capable naval platforms.

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## TsAr

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Time is of the essence
> If it's not delivered on time then it's not worth it. The actual time frame shouldve been 2020-2022


PN would have surely discussed the time frame involved before signing the final deal. Stop whining about this now.

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## Turan09

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Time is of the essence
> If it's not delivered on time then it's not worth it. The actual time frame shouldve been 2020-2022


It's not. Look, you know we are not China that build ships like cars... this is the case on this side of the world, France or Britain would prabably build this kind of vessel in a similiar time frame. Which both Turkey and Pakistan agreed upon this time frame. Btw, don't tell me damian, it was an OPV not a stealth warship, and it was pretty basic design. You can see the difference when you look how Jinnah Class is different than our original Ada.
I understand your point, you believe your state needs this warships urgently because of tension but there is nothing we can do about that, All this modifications and building stealth warships needs time. I wish Pakistan ordered them before so you could have them now, but the rules of the real world it is different.

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## TOPGUN

Good things come to those who are patient, in due time they shall be with us thanks to our Turkish brothers.

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## cabatli_53

When the construction of first ship is completed, It will be launched on sea as a prototype of Jinnah class, since Pakistani Milgem configuration will have a bigger displacement cause of heavier missile payload and larger fuel tanks so It will be needed to perform navigation trials from the beggining. This activity will reveal all manoeuvring, steering, sea-keeping, endurance characteristics of this ship at different speeds to correct calculations that has been done on naval labratory on design phase. All those will also takes time. When the ship proved its maturity to carry out the missions related with ship’s performance and target engagement capabilities, The qualification will be over and The ship will be handed over to Pakistan Navy.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

cabatli_53 said:


> When the construction of first ship is completed, It will be launched on sea as a prototype of Jinnah class, since Pakistani Milgem configuration will have a bigger displacement cause of heavier missile payload and larger fuel tanks so It will be needed to perform navigation trials from the beggining. This activity will reveal all manoeuvring, steering, sea-keeping, endurance characteristics of this ship at different speeds to correct calculations that has been done on naval labratory on design phase. All those will also takes time. When the ship proved its maturity to carry out the missions related with ship’s performance and target engagement capabilities, The qualification will be over and The ship will be handed over to Pakistan Navy.


Can you be kind enough by also providing approximate time for these trials.

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## Sunny4pak

*Pakistan's Milgem Corvettes Explained in Detail.*





@Stealth @Imran Khan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @cabatli_53

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## The Eagle

cabatli_53 said:


> When the construction of first ship is completed, It will be launched on sea as a prototype of Jinnah class, since Pakistani Milgem configuration will have a bigger displacement cause of heavier missile payload and larger fuel tanks so It will be needed to perform navigation trials from the beggining. This activity will reveal all manoeuvring, steering, sea-keeping, endurance characteristics of this ship at different speeds to correct calculations that has been done on naval labratory on design phase. All those will also takes time. When the ship proved its maturity to carry out the missions related with ship’s performance and target engagement capabilities, The qualification will be over and The ship will be handed over to Pakistan Navy.



People needs to understand the complex science that takes time in such matters for the first time. Once we are on track, it's just the matter of time when new ships starts to join battle group. Patience is the key here.

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## cabatli_53

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can you be kind enough by also providing approximate time for these trials.



It took around 2 years for the first ship of Milgem class but It was the first
time We have experienced all processes of a complex warship program. Turkish engineers now have a vast of knowledge on this affairs so I believe It will take ~1 years until PN takes delivery of first ship.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TURUL said:


> ok thank you, so at the end the Jinnah-class will be similar in size,armament end mission to a I-class


Not necessarily, it might be fairly close to the size of the Ada. Delta Marine had a design concept of a light frigate -- LF-2400 -- which basically seems like a variant of the Ada, but with VLS. So, it's possible that the Jinnah-class is close in specifications to the LF-2400 (e.g. ~108 m length, 2,400 tons displacement).

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not necessarily, it might be fairly close to the size of the Ada. Delta Marine had a design concept of a light frigate -- LF-2400 -- which basically seems like a variant of the Ada, but with VLS. So, it's possible that the Jinnah-class is close in specifications to the LF-2400 (e.g. ~108 m length, 2,400 tons displacement).


I wish we learn and come up with our own indigenous warships.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Turan09 said:


> It's not. Look, you know we are not China that build ships like cars... this is the case on this side of the world, France or Britain would prabably build this kind of vessel in a similiar time frame. Which both Turkey and Pakistan agreed upon this time frame. Btw, don't tell me damian, it was an OPV not a stealth warship, and it was pretty basic design. You can see the difference when you look how Jinnah Class is different than our original Ada.
> I understand your point, you believe your state needs this warships urgently because of tension but there is nothing we can do about that, All this modifications and building stealth warships needs time. I wish Pakistan ordered them before so you could have them now, but the rules of the real world it is different.


Ya I know, I don't blame Turkey for this. I blame PN for this mess, they should've worked on this while it was still a blueprint.



TOPGUN said:


> Good things come to those who are patient, in due time they shall be with us thanks to our Turkish brothers.


Unfortunately that doesnt work when war in on your doorstep



TsAr said:


> PN would have surely discussed the time frame involved before signing the final deal. Stop whining about this now.


Whining? Watch your mouth boi. I merely stated that it's a tight squeeze



CHI RULES said:


> Sir considering the Indo Pak tensions we immediately require some capable naval platforms.


Exactly my point, PN shouldve saw this coming and realized they are the weak link.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I wish we learn and come up with our own indigenous warships.


Why reinvent the wheel? Take both Turkish and Chinese experience and make something that is your own. Shouldn't be hard to do after all they are getting the technology for both designs. I fully believe that's what PN is doing now. Collecting as much experience and knowledge about ship building, to compensate for the lost time.

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## TsAr

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Whining? Watch your mouth boi. I merely stated that it's a tight squeeze
> 
> 
> Exactly my point, PN shouldve saw this coming and realized they are the weak link.



A statement is made once, you have continuously mentioned in the thread that its taking too long.....we are talking about a ship boi not a toyota corolla....

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## monitor

SFAT, Pakistan MILGEM Corvette project stages:

• September 2018 contract
• Actual start of March 2019
• August 2023 Delivery of the 1st Corvette in Istanbul
• February 2024 2nd delivery of the corvette to the liver
• August 2024 Delivery of the 3rd Corvette in Istanbul
• February 2025 4th delivery of the corvette in the liver

collected

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## CHI RULES

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Ya I know, I don't blame Turkey for this. I blame PN for this mess, they should've worked on this while it was still a blueprint.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that doesnt work when war in on your doorstep
> 
> 
> Whining? Watch your mouth boi. I merely stated that it's a tight squeeze
> 
> 
> Exactly my point, PN shouldve saw this coming and realized they are the weak link.
> 
> 
> Why reinvent the wheel? Take both Turkish and Chinese experience and make something that is your own. Shouldn't be hard to do after all they are getting the technology for both designs. I fully believe that's what PN is doing now. Collecting as much experience and knowledge about ship building, to compensate for the lost time.


In cas of Jinnah class Pakistan shall get some sort of self reliance in ship building but it is a long term project further we cannot blame PN alone as I am quite assured that previous naval heads may have had their plans but due to sanctions first we were unable to get at least two to three more OHPs, further our finances and preference in funds by ranking i.e Army, Air force and Navy may have hindered the required progress as AK MBT production is slow and we are still searching for well required attack helicopters, in case of PAF we are unable to get 4.5 th Gen jet in medium to heavy category.
But fact is that Indo Pak situation is serious and PN at least in case of air defense is below par as compared to adversary. May be PN if considers the current scenario should go for immediate upgrade of four F22P with capable SAM/Radar combo, meanwhile if OHP is even if armed with capable SAM can play an effective role in case of any expected conflict. Meanwhile perhaps our Agosta 90 submarines upgraded with Babur CM can play the most vital role in near future.

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## Pakhtoon yum

TsAr said:


> A statement is made once, you have continuously mentioned in the thread that its taking too long.....we are talking about a ship boi not a toyota corolla....


Muffin that's becuse I've been quoted and answering those quotes. So do keep your nasty words to yourself of you dont have anything worth contributing


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## Ark_Angel

Turan09 said:


> It's not. Look, you know we are not China that build ships like cars... this is the case on this side of the world, France or Britain would prabably build this kind of vessel in a similiar time frame. Which both Turkey and Pakistan agreed upon this time frame. Btw, don't tell me damian, it was an OPV not a stealth warship, and it was pretty basic design. You can see the difference when you look how Jinnah Class is different than our original Ada.
> I understand your point, you believe your state needs this warships urgently because of tension but there is nothing we can do about that, All this modifications and building stealth warships needs time. I wish Pakistan ordered them before so you could have them now, but the rules of the real world it is different.


Kardesim, the delay was caused by your end not on the Part of PN. The deal was previously negotiated with The Shipyard directly and the first J-Class vessel was to be Commisioned by 2021 the same timeline was to be followed with the Type-054APs for the J-Class vessels. The design and specs had already been finalised by Istanbul Shipyards back in 2015 when they responded to the tender. URD(User Required Document) covers all the specs which are to be needed in a platform to which the OEMs respond to. However consequent to the final signing of the document Your Govt formally asked MoD to wait till the formulation of ASFAT consortium. Consequently when ASFAT was formulated the whole cycle of Negotiations restarted as it has to cover each and every nitty gritty involved. And those negotiations only completed in the first quarter of 2019 totally delaying the timeline for the project and vessels induction. For information of all the members here on the forum don't jump to conclusions and always blame your own institutions. If it were upto PN they would have had 054s,Milgems by now but Geo Politics and Techalities are always at play for us.

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## Quwa

Ark_Angel said:


> Kardesim, the delay was caused by your end not on the Part of PN. The deal was previously negotiated with The Shipyard directly and the first J-Class vessel was to be Commisioned by 2021 the same timeline was to be followed with the Type-054APs for the J-Class vessels. The design and specs had already been finalised by Istanbul Shipyards back in 2015 when they responded to the tender. URD(User Required Document) covers all the specs which are to be needed in a platform to which the OEMs respond to. However consequent to the final signing of the document Your Govt formally asked MoD to wait till the formulation of ASFAT consortium. Consequently when ASFAT was formulated the whole cycle of Negotiations restarted as it has to cover each and every nitty gritty involved. And those negotiations only completed in the first quarter of 2019 totally delaying the timeline for the project and vessels induction. For information of all the members here on the forum don't jump to conclusions and always blame your own institutions. If it were upto PN they would have had 054s,Milgems by now but Geo Politics and Techalities are always at play for us.


hmmm... I wonder where that leaves the PN mini-SSK. STM said they submitted the design proposal, but the last we heard of the mini-SSK was in the 16-17 MoDP report.

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## UzaySan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182959701060915202
Low altidute Surface to Air Missile Hisar-A completed tests and goes to serial production. I believe Pakistan can use this missiles naval version on its modified Ada class frigates instead of chinese one.

More information about Hisar missiles can be found here http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/product/hisar-hava-savunma-fuzeleri/

Medium altidute and range Hisar missile is development phase and expected to be ready with in a year. Long range Hisar Missile(New name -Siper Missile) will be aster mssile equalivent and will be efective against both air breating targets and balistic mcissiles

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

UzaySan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182959701060915202
> Low altidute Surface to Air Missile Hisar-A completed tests and goes to serial production. I believe Pakistan can use this missiles naval version on its modified Ada class frigates instead of chinese one.
> 
> More information about Hisar missiles can be found here http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/product/hisar-hava-savunma-fuzeleri/
> 
> Medium altidute and range Hisar missile is development phase and expected to be ready with in a year. Long range Hisar Missile(New name -Siper Missile) will be aster mssile equalivent and will be efective against both air breating targets and balistic mcissiles


The PN selected the HQ-16 for now, but if they're going to make a switch, I'd prefer we opt for the Umkhonto EIR with ToT (for that and the 60-km range Umkhonto ER or Marlin SAM) to manufacture turn-key and develop further. 

The Army went ahead with the HQ-16, but I hope, somehow or someway, the PAF and PN pivot and go for a ToT-driven solution together. 

That said, I'd love for us to buy into the Hisar-U and SIPER long-range SAM projects. Either or both could be a solid fit on the Type 054A/P frigates.

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## khanasifm

https://www.ssb.gov.tr/urunkatalog/en/106/


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## dBSPL

I class Frigate subsystems :

Torpedo Jamming and Counter Measure System - Indigenous
*Close-in weapon system (imported for the first ship, indeginous for other ships)
Torpedo Launcher system - Indigenous
**Anti-sub Lightweight torpedo -
25mm remote controlled stabilized naval gun system - indigenous
ASW countermeasure suites - indigenous
ASW decoys and launchers - indigenous
Surface-to-Surface / Anti Ship Cruise missile - indigenous
Naval Combat Management Systems - indigenous
SATCOM - indigenous
Search and rescue radar - Indigenous
Hull mounted Sonar - Indigenous
Towed Sonar - Indigenous
Fire control radar - indigenous
WAIS - indigenous
IFF Suite - indigenous
Navigation radar - indigenous
Electronic Attack Suites - indigenous
Electronic Support Suites - indigenous
*****3D search radar
Infrared search tracking system - indigenous
LPI radar -indigenous
Electro Optical director - indigenous
Laser warning system - indigenous
Chaff and decoys - indigenous
**Medium-range surface-to-air missile
***Vertical Launching System
****76mm Main Gun System

****** Ship's propulsion and transmission sub systems

* Indigenous product is ready.
** Indigenous product testing and/or acceptance process is ongoing.
*** Project activities are ongoing. No images have been shared with the press yet.
**** Indigenous product project has not been announced yet. However, electromagnetic weapons as main gun development projects are officially in progress.
***** Production under license. However, indigenous production capacity has been reached.
****** There is no indigenous project. However, such a planning was announced.

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## Imran Khan

dBSPL said:


> I class Frigate subsystems :
> 
> Torpedo Jamming and Counter Measure System - Indigenous
> *Close-in weapon system (imported for the first ship, indeginous for other ships)
> Torpedo Launcher system - Indigenous
> **Anti-sub Lightweight torpedo -
> 25mm remote controlled stabilized naval gun system - indigenous
> ASW countermeasure suites - indigenous
> ASW decoys and launchers - indigenous
> Surface-to-Surface / Anti Ship Cruise missile - indigenous
> Naval Combat Management Systems - indigenous
> SATCOM - indigenous
> Search and rescue radar - Indigenous
> Hull mounted Sonar - Indigenous
> Towed Sonar - Indigenous
> Fire control radar - indigenous
> WAIS - indigenous
> IFF Suite - indigenous
> Navigation radar - indigenous
> Electronic Attack Suites - indigenous
> Electronic Support Suites - indigenous
> *****3D search radar
> Infrared search tracking system - indigenous
> LPI radar -indigenous
> Electro Optical director - indigenous
> Laser warning system - indigenous
> Chaff and decoys - indigenous
> **Medium-range surface-to-air missile
> ***Vertical Launching System
> ****76mm Main Gun System
> 
> ****** Ship's propulsion and transmission sub systems
> 
> * Indigenous product is ready.
> ** Indigenous product testing and/or acceptance process is ongoing.
> *** Project activities are ongoing. No images have been shared with the press yet.
> **** Indigenous product project has not been announced yet. However, electromagnetic weapons as main gun development projects are officially in progress.
> ***** Production under license. However, indigenous production capacity has been reached.
> ****** There is no indigenous project. However, such a planning was announced.


what will happen of choppers sir ?



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN selected the HQ-16 for now, but if they're going to make a switch, I'd prefer we opt for the Umkhonto EIR with ToT (for that and the 60-km range Umkhonto ER or Marlin SAM) to manufacture turn-key and develop further.
> 
> The Army went ahead with the HQ-16, but I hope, somehow or someway, the PAF and PN pivot and go for a ToT-driven solution together.
> 
> That said, I'd love for us to buy into the Hisar-U and SIPER long-range SAM projects. Either or both could be a solid fit on the Type 054A/P frigates.


any sam less then 100km range is not worth for TOT we have tons of sams less then 100km ranges


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## Affanakad0t.

Z-20 ?


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## Imran Khan

Affanakad0t. said:


> Z-20 ?


a new type ? we arleady have so many types of choppers then better stick on z9s


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009




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## Ahmet Pasha

Dont remember very clearly. But not too long ago I read news right here on PDF that PN was looking at other proposals foreign and domestic too. Could've been false tho. Not too sure


Quwa said:


> hmmm... I wonder where that leaves the PN mini-SSK. STM said they submitted the design proposal, but the last we heard of the mini-SSK was in the 16-17 MoDP report.


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## Gryphon

Havelsan also takes part in the production and delivery of the GENESIS-based Combat Management System (CMS), which will be used in four Jinnah Class Corvettes built for the Pakistan Navy. Havelsan engineers are currently working on an improved version of the system. The Jinnah Class Corvettes will accommodate a number of differences in weapon and sensor equipment compared to the ADA Class Corvettes, therefore, the GENESIS-based CMS to be installed on the ships requires a number of modifications and updates for the integration of new sensor and weapon systems.* The ships will be equipped with the SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar and include LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System and C802 Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles.* For the integration of these new Chinese weapon systems into the vessels, the necessary Interface Control Documents (ICDs) must be shared with Havelsan. As of February 2019, the negotiations with Chinese officials on this issue were continuing.



Excerpt from:

Turkish Defence Industry Displays its Muscles During | defenceturkey.com
by İbrahim SÜNNETCİ

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## khanasifm

Just curious if smart-s is going to be on pn Turkish vessels than why not 054a/p as turkey is producing it locally and exporting it as well 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART-S

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?view=article&id=750


SR2410C 3D Multifunctional Radar

SR2410C 3D multifunctional radar is a modular, highly reliable, countermeasure-resistant, medium-range air and surface surveillance system.

The Beijing-based China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) promoted SR2410C, a new phased array radar at the LIMA 2017 exhibition.

According to the Chinese language news cjdby, the radar is a fully coherent three-dimensional phased array S-band radar capable of fully automatic detection, track initiation, and classification of various types of targets. Even under severe clutter conditions encountered in the littoral, it detects and tracks with a particular emphasis on small, fast and low-flying aircraft, missiles, hovering helicopters and asymmetric threats. This ensures minimal operator workload and maximises operational effectiveness analogous to the Thales SMART-S MK2 radar.

The radar’s anti-jamming capabilities include resistance to narrowband and broadband active jamming. Other electronic countermeasures include constant false alarm mode, digital pulse compression plus it has a low side lobe.

Richard Fisher, vice president of the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center said that the radar is clearly designed to add another layer of medium and point surveillance defence capability for surface ships.

According to the CSOC brochure, the radar can track up to 150 targets per rotation. Limitations include air targets over Mach 3 and at ranges of more than 150km. The radar has a fire control capability to track missiles, but only at a maximum range of 60km. It is also capable of tracking moving ground vehicles and surface ships. It is capable to complete the task of identifying friend and foes.

The radar can be mounted on a vehicle or a littoral combat ship such as type 056 Corvette. The radar has been installed on Bangladesh Navy’s type 056 Corvette – BNS Shongram and BNS Prottasha. The SR2410C radar is fully compatible with shipboard missile systems such as FM-3000.

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## khanasifm

In tres ting

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> In tres ting
> 
> View attachment 586523
> 
> 
> View attachment 586524


This kind of confirms that the HHQ-16 issue isn't 100% settled, it says at the end that negotiations with the Chinese are still continuing. So, if the Chinese said "no," then the PN will have to look at the Aster-15, CAMM or Umkhonto.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This kind of confirms that the HHQ-16 issue isn't 100% settled, it says at the end that negotiations with the Chinese are still continuing. So, if the Chinese said "no," then the PN will have to look at the Aster-15, CAMM or Umkhonto.


There is no so-called HHQ-16.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> There is no so-called HHQ-16.


HQ-16/LY-80

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## aliaselin

khanasifm said:


> Just curious if smart-s is going to be on pn Turkish vessels than why not 054a/p as turkey is producing it locally and exporting it as well


SMART-s is a low end 3D radar with 16 antenna composed of travelling wave tube, in which 12 independent elevation beams are produced, after which DFFT processing and automatic tracking is carried out. 
https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/07.naval/karte007.en.html
While SR2410C is an AESA radar composed of TR units, 2 generation ahead of SMART-S


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This kind of confirms that the HHQ-16 issue isn't 100% settled, it says at the end that negotiations with the Chinese are still continuing. So, if the Chinese said "no," then the PN will have to look at the Aster-15, CAMM or Umkhonto.


its probable that china will not share codes..its a trend we have been seeing

unless it allowed Pakistan to licence manufacture this weapon/SAM..
i am seeing less and less of that trend of recent years

good news is there are ample of other options available

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## khanasifm

aliaselin said:


> SMART-s is a low end 3D radar with 16 antenna composed of travelling wave tube, in which 12 independent elevation beams are produced, after which DFFT processing and automatic tracking is carried out.
> https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/07.naval/karte007.en.html
> While SR2410C is an AESA radar composed of TR units, 2 generation ahead of SMART-S



There is mk2 version which is latest


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## aliaselin

khanasifm said:


> There is mk2 version which is latest


Latest but with old outdated technology. Even MK2 has only 12 beams, which means it still use travelling wave tube
http://www.thales7seas.com/html5/pr...eet_SMART-S_Mk2_DS116_10_10_H_nw_stijl_HR.pdf


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## khanasifm

aliaselin said:


> Latest but with old outdated technology. Even MK2 has only 12 beams, which means it still use travelling wave tube
> http://www.thales7seas.com/html5/pr...eet_SMART-S_Mk2_DS116_10_10_H_nw_stijl_HR.pdf



Than why get it on Turkish version and why is turkey putting it on their version??


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## aliaselin

khanasifm said:


> Than why get it on Turkish version and why is turkey putting it on their version??


I don't know. Maybe because travelling wave tube is much cheaper than GaAs or GaN T/R units.


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## cabatli_53

Turkey is evaluating to integrate ÇafRad Lite X band non rotating ÇFR AESA radar to I class frigates but there is not a given decision yet.

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## Tank131

Italian defense chief was in Pakistan and held discussions with PN. Could CAMM or CAMM-ER have come up? Personally i think CAMM is the most ideal for PN. If they can get it, i would put the F-22P through a genesis upgrade of sorts with SMART S mk2 and get an 8-12 cell sylver A50 and quad pack CAMM into that and Jinnah class. That would give 64 missiles of 60km range for Jinnah and 32-48 for F-22P. BOTH would then exceed the amti-air capability of the Type 054A.

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## CHI RULES

aliaselin said:


> SMART-s is a low end 3D radar with 16 antenna composed of travelling wave tube, in which 12 independent elevation beams are produced, after which DFFT processing and automatic tracking is carried out.
> https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/07.naval/karte007.en.html
> While SR2410C is an AESA radar composed of TR units, 2 generation ahead of SMART-S


Sir can you explain these limitations of SR2410C as if it such limitations are there then it should not be slected for Type54 AP. Further you have stated it as AESA meanwhile at many sites it is mentioned as *PESA radar.*
*According to the CSOC brochure, the radar can track up to 150 targets per rotation. Limitations include air targets over Mach 3 and at ranges of more than 150km. The radar has a fire control capability to track missiles, but only at a maximum range of 60km. It is also capable of tracking moving ground vehicles and surface ships. It is capable to complete the task of identifying friend and foes.*



Tank131 said:


> Italian defense chief was in Pakistan and held discussions with PN. Could CAMM or CAMM-ER have come up? Personally i think CAMM is the most ideal for PN. If they can get it, i would put the F-22P through a genesis upgrade of sorts with SMART S mk2 and get an 8-12 cell sylver A50 and quad pack CAMM into that and Jinnah class. That would give 64 missiles of 60km range for Jinnah and 32-48 for F-22P. BOTH would then exceed the amti-air capability of the Type 054A.



Sir cost shall be a factor further the HQ16B is stated as more capable and has reported range of 70 KM+. As cost has remained an important factor through out defense deals history of Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Italian defense chief was in Pakistan and held discussions with PN. Could CAMM or CAMM-ER have come up? Personally i think CAMM is the most ideal for PN. If they can get it, i would put the F-22P through a genesis upgrade of sorts with SMART S mk2 and get an 8-12 cell sylver A50 and quad pack CAMM into that and Jinnah class. That would give 64 missiles of 60km range for Jinnah and 32-48 for F-22P. BOTH would then exceed the amti-air capability of the Type 054A.


Algeria fit each MEKO A-200AN with Umkhonto IRs (32 cells per ship) for $30-35 m per ship. If each Jinnah-class has 16 cells, then we could fit each one for $20-25 m per ship.

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## cabatli_53

If Pakistan seeks an alternative missile, It means China won’t let integration of HQ-16 missiles to Genesis Advent CMS. When Turkish missile family pass into serial production, there will no longer be a need of seeking permission for foreign missiles. 



> weapon systems such as 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS, HİSAR-A short, HİSAR-Nokta medium and SİPER (formerly known as HİSAR-U) long-range air defence missiles. The TF-2000 ADW Destroyers are also expected to be fitted with the naval variant of the Enhanced Long-Range Area Air and Missile Defence System (GUMS/UMBFSS, with BMD capability and EuroSam has been selected as the technical support provider) missile systems to be fired from national VLSs.



https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...of-turkish-naval-industrial-capabilities-3632

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## aliaselin

CHI RULES said:


> Sir can you explain these limitations of SR2410C as if it such limitations are there then it should not be slected for Type54 AP. Further you have stated it as AESA meanwhile at many sites it is mentioned as *PESA radar.*
> *According to the CSOC brochure, the radar can track up to 150 targets per rotation. Limitations include air targets over Mach 3 and at ranges of more than 150km. The radar has a fire control capability to track missiles, but only at a maximum range of 60km. It is also capable of tracking moving ground vehicles and surface ships. It is capable to complete the task of identifying friend and foes.*


Several weeks ago, I have dicussed with somebody who had read CSOC‘s brochure, and he told me it was an AESA. Also SR2410C is a series of radar also including SR2420C and SR2403B，to fit with different scale of ships , so most probable *054A/P does not use SR2410C, but SR2420C or SR2403B*.

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## HRK

aliaselin said:


> but SR2420C or SR2403B


any specification or some more detail about these radars ...... ??

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## Tank131

CHI RULES said:


> Sir cost shall be a factor further the HQ16B is stated as more capable and has reported range of 70 KM+. As cost has remained an important factor through out defense deals history of Pakistan.



I would willingly sacrifice 10kms of range (60km vs 70km) for the ability to quad pack the missiles when you consider instead of 16 70km missiles you would have 64 60km missiles if you get CAMM. Infact the Royal Navy made the same calculation on the Daring class destroyers when the removed 12 cells of Aster 15/30 and replaced them with quad packed CAMM. That gave a load out of 20 Aster 30 (long range) 16 Aster 15 (medium) and 48 CAMM (short to med range) vs 20 and 28 with just the asters. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Algeria fit each MEKO A-200AN with Umkhonto IRs (32 cells per ship) for $30-35 m per ship. If each Jinnah-class has 16 cells, then we could fit each one for $20-25 m per ship.



I would be good with Umkhonto but the problem is with only 35km range i would hope to have more missiles. But if it was marlin or umkhonto r id be far more amenable. 



cabatli_53 said:


> If Pakistan seeks an alternative missile, It means China won’t let integration of HQ-16 missiles to Genesis Advent CMS. When Turkish missile family pass into serial production, there will no longer be a need of seeking permission for foreign missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...of-turkish-naval-industrial-capabilities-3632



With the right range absolutely. But it needs to be at least 40km.i would hope that Turkey and Pakistan would work together to make a quad packed medium range missile.

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## Khagan1923

Tank131 said:


> With the right range absolutely. But it needs to be at least 40km.i would hope that Turkey and Pakistan would work together to make a quad packed medium range missile.



Tübitak is working on an missile named G40, shown off at IDEF19. 40KM range.

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## UzaySan

Turkish anti-ship misille is ready and Pakistan can use it on its milgems.

This is latest test video. Turkish ship Turkish software(Operation System) and Turkish missile. And Pakistan can use it for its enemies

Atmaca also has sea skimming. According to officials atmaca did fly only 1 meter above sea and hit successfully target


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191272558227795968
Turkish anti-ship missile did a zigzag move like exocet missile. This is effective way to protect itself from ciws systems.
And block 2 will be able to launched from submarine.

Engine development project is still going for atmaca.






Also engine will be ready until pakistan milgems ready.

You guys can use this misiile againt whoever you want without limit.






Atmaca missile serial production agreement signed.






Atmaca and others comparison

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

UzaySan said:


> Turkish anti-ship misille is ready and Pakistan can use it on its milgems.
> 
> This is latest test video. Turkish ship Turkish software(Operation System) and Turkish missile. And Pakistan can use it for its enemies
> 
> Atmaca also has sea skimming. According to officials atmaca did fly only 1 meter above sea and hit successfully target
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191272558227795968
> Turkish anti-ship missile did a zigzag move like exocet missile. This is effective way to protect itself from ciws systems.
> And block 2 will be able to launched from submarine.
> 
> Engine development project is still going for atmaca.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also engine will be ready until pakistan milgems ready.
> 
> You guys can use this misiile againt whoever you want without limit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atmaca missile serial production agreement signed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atmaca and others comparison



Pakistan already has much more advanced cruise missiles. When do you plan to stop copying and paste?

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## UzaySan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Pakistan already has much more advanced cruise missiles. When do you plan to stop copying and paste?


Not gonna ask you what to do. And you are right. Pakistan has better missiles.

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## waz

The PN currently has four MILGEM corvettes on order, with all four ships due for delivery to the PN by 2023-2024. Construction of the first ship will last 54 months, but the remaining three ships will follow the first in quicker succession, i.e., at six-month intervals of one another (ASFAT A.S).

Under the contract, which was signed in 2018, two of the ships will be built in Turkey, while the remaining two in Pakistan. Pakistan will also receive “complete transfer of technology and the transfer of intellectual property rights for the design of these ships.”

The fourth ship was to be a new frigate class (i.e., Jinnah-class) jointly designed by the primary contractor, ASFAT A.S. (Military Factories and Shipyards Management Inc), and Pakistan’s Maritime Technologies Complex (MTC). However, it appears that the new frigate design will apply to all four ships.

*During AMAN-19, the Pakistan Navy’s biennial multi-national exercise, the PN Chief of Naval Staff (CNS), Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, reportedly outlined that the PN’s MILGEMs will be equipped with the Chinese HQ-16 surface-to-air missile (SAM) system through a 16-cell vertical launch system (VLS).*

The VLS will be installed at the fore of the ship, behind the main gun. In addition, the PN’s MILGEMs will deploy a modified version of the GENESIS combat management system (CMS).

The PN MILGEMs will also deploy an “indigenously developed missile system,” which could be the Harba subsonic dual-anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM) and land-attack cruise missile (LACM). *However, the most recent Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) report also disclosed the development of a new supersonic missile for the PN, so the PN’s MILGEMs may deploy something other than the Harba ASCM/LACM as well.*

The CNS did not specify if the inclusion of VLS was limited to solely the fourth ship, implying that all four MILGEM ships will be configured along identical lines. One indication for this change could be that in 2016, the PN was expected to procure four MILGEM Ada corvettes configured along similar lines to the Turkish Navy’s ships at $1 billion US. However, the deal is now reportedly worth $1.5 billion US.

*The PN’s forthcoming Type 054A/P frigates will also deploy the HQ-16 but through 32 VLS cells. *All four Type 054A/Ps are due by 2021. Interestingly, the Pakistan Army also inducted the HQ-16/LY-80, which shows that there is a measure of commonality between the Navy and Army on SAMs.

The Jinnah-class corvette/light frigate is a fully multi-mission design. T*he HQ-16/LY-80 — which could have a range of 40 km or, if the PN opts for the newer configuration, 70 km – provides anti-air warfare (AAW) coverage. In addition, the Harba ASCM/LACM would provide long-range anti-shipping and stand-off range land-attack capability. If the Jinnah-class arrives by the time the PN deploys its supersonic missile (which is likely to be an ASCM), it could have a varied – and difficult to stop – anti-shipping load-out as well.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...tte-under-construction-for-pakistan-navy.html*

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## dBSPL

Pakistan wants the configuration of a 5.000-ton ship on a 2800-3000-ton ship. We will probably see a ship full of weapons/sensors and ECM systems , just like Israeli navy combatant ships. A standard Ada-class corvettes' cost could be reduced to $ 250 million, if some parts production can be shift to Pakistan. However, there is a lot of information showing that the additional cost of $ 100 million per ship is not just ToT or infrastructure construction.As far as I can see, the Jinnah class will have a crowder configuration than the I-class. A portion of the contract amount will be used to transfer infrastructure to Pakistan but the real big share seems to go to subsystem contractors.

The fact that these Integration activities will take place on a ready and proven platform with all engineering solutions completed for nearly 15 years, will provide more predictable risk management.

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## khanasifm

The Turkish ciws which ship /platform already installed and operational ? T pn is first customer ?

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## dBSPL

Khagan1923 said:


> No, Turkmenistan will be the first costumer acc. to Aselsan official at IDEF19. Gökdeniz could also be used on the I-Class and maybe on MLU of the Barbaros-Class Frigates instead of Phalanx.







*CGI of the Turkmen class multi role corvettes, with Aselsan Gökdeniz CIWS

A contract was signed between the Turkish companies Gülhan and Dearsan with Turkmenistan to build a 92-meter corvette. It was learned that the ship to be built in Turkmenbashi Port will be named as Turkmen class. ASELSAN product Gökdeniz CIWS will be used in corvettes to be exported to Turkmenistan. In 2016, Dearsan signed a memorandum of understanding for the Corvette tender in Kazakhstan. Also, Dearsan is continuing its efforts to export 16 different types of ships to Azerbaijan. Since 2010, Dearsan has exported a total of 25 ships to the Navy and Border Guards of Turkmenistan.

Therefore, we will probably see quite a large number of Gökdeniz CIWS in the Caspian, in near future.

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## RangeMaster

On 14 November 2019, Aselsan revealed that is got a €176.9 m contract from ASFAT A.Ş (Military Factory and Shipyard Management Inc) to supply subsystems for the Pakistan Navy’s four MILGEM (i.e., Jinnah-class) multi-mission corvettes/light frigates (via Anadolu Agency).

Aselsan may be supplying the electronic support measures (ESM), radars (main and/or low probability-of-intercept), sonars, and other subsystems. One of these could be the Aselsan Gökdeniz close-in-weapons-system (CIWS) for low-altitude air defence coverage, especially against incoming missiles.

This is Aselsan’s second large contract involving Pakistan, the first was a $254.73 m US deal in July for the Pakistan Army’s T129 ATAK attack helicopter program.

Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) signed a contract with ASFAT A.Ş for the four MILGEMs in July 2018, following two years of negotiations with the Turkish government.

The value of the Pakistani MILGEM contract is reportedly $1.5 billion US. The four ships are due to delivery to the PN by 2023-2024, with the first ship set to arrive in 2022-2023.

Under the contract, Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) will manufacture two of the ships, with the other two being built in Turkey. Pakistan will also receive “complete transfer of technology and the transfer of intellectual property for the design of (the MILGEM).”

In September 2019, Istanbul Shipyard held the steel-cutting ceremony of the PN’s first MILGEM.

During the steel-cutting ceremony, ASFAT A.Ş also revealed an impression of the PN’s MILGEM. As shown in the tweet below (courtesy of Ahmad Ibrahim), Pakistan’s ships will differ from their Turkish equivalents. The most apparent of these changes is the inclusion of a vertical launch system (VLS) at the bow of the ship (behind the main gun) and the use of a CIWS – possibly the Aselsan Gökdeniz.





https://quwa.org/2019/11/18/aselsan-secures-e176-9-m-contract-for-pakistans-milgem-corvette-program/

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> The PN currently has four MILGEM corvettes on order, with all four ships due for delivery to the PN by 2023-2024. Construction of the first ship will last 54 months, but the remaining three ships will follow the first in quicker succession, i.e., at six-month intervals of one another (ASFAT A.S).
> 
> Under the contract, which was signed in 2018, two of the ships will be built in Turkey, while the remaining two in Pakistan. Pakistan will also receive “complete transfer of technology and the transfer of intellectual property rights for the design of these ships.”
> 
> The fourth ship was to be a new frigate class (i.e., Jinnah-class) jointly designed by the primary contractor, ASFAT A.S. (Military Factories and Shipyards Management Inc), and Pakistan’s Maritime Technologies Complex (MTC). However, it appears that the new frigate design will apply to all four ships.
> 
> *During AMAN-19, the Pakistan Navy’s biennial multi-national exercise, the PN Chief of Naval Staff (CNS), Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, reportedly outlined that the PN’s MILGEMs will be equipped with the Chinese HQ-16 surface-to-air missile (SAM) system through a 16-cell vertical launch system (VLS).*
> 
> The VLS will be installed at the fore of the ship, behind the main gun. In addition, the PN’s MILGEMs will deploy a modified version of the GENESIS combat management system (CMS).
> 
> The PN MILGEMs will also deploy an “indigenously developed missile system,” which could be the Harba subsonic dual-anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM) and land-attack cruise missile (LACM). *However, the most recent Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) report also disclosed the development of a new supersonic missile for the PN, so the PN’s MILGEMs may deploy something other than the Harba ASCM/LACM as well.*
> 
> The CNS did not specify if the inclusion of VLS was limited to solely the fourth ship, implying that all four MILGEM ships will be configured along identical lines. One indication for this change could be that in 2016, the PN was expected to procure four MILGEM Ada corvettes configured along similar lines to the Turkish Navy’s ships at $1 billion US. However, the deal is now reportedly worth $1.5 billion US.
> 
> *The PN’s forthcoming Type 054A/P frigates will also deploy the HQ-16 but through 32 VLS cells. *All four Type 054A/Ps are due by 2021. Interestingly, the Pakistan Army also inducted the HQ-16/LY-80, which shows that there is a measure of commonality between the Navy and Army on SAMs.
> 
> The Jinnah-class corvette/light frigate is a fully multi-mission design. T*he HQ-16/LY-80 — which could have a range of 40 km or, if the PN opts for the newer configuration, 70 km – provides anti-air warfare (AAW) coverage. In addition, the Harba ASCM/LACM would provide long-range anti-shipping and stand-off range land-attack capability. If the Jinnah-class arrives by the time the PN deploys its supersonic missile (which is likely to be an ASCM), it could have a varied – and difficult to stop – anti-shipping load-out as well.
> 
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...tte-under-construction-for-pakistan-navy.html*



Im excited about the new supersonic CM. But we should also do some R&D on hypersonic vehicles too. World is changing rapidly and even hypersonic missiles are the future.

@HRK. Any progress on Advanced MLRS MODP yearbook mentioned?

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## HRK

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @HRK. Any progress on Advanced MLRS MODP yearbook mentioned?


not in my knowledge .... but its almost 3 years from the time of announcement so the chances are they are not disclosing the progress .... as per their age old customs

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## DrWatson775

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This kind of confirms that the HHQ-16 issue isn't 100% settled, it says at the end that negotiations with the Chinese are still continuing. So, if the Chinese said "no," then the PN will have to look at the Aster-15, CAMM or Umkhonto.



Chinese reluctance may be due to pressure from the US during trade talks - asking to limit proliferation of technology.

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## Rafi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im excited about the new supersonic CM. But we should also do some R&D on hypersonic vehicles too. World is changing rapidly and even hypersonic missiles are the future.
> 
> @HRK. Any progress on Advanced MLRS MODP yearbook mentioned?



Yes, we should be hearing some good news on this project in the next year or so. Only if they don't want to hold back for a surprise.

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## Tank131

DrWatson775 said:


> Chinese reluctance may be due to pressure from the US during trade talks - asking to limit proliferation of technology.



Unlikely. Hq-16 will already be in PN aboard the Type 054A/P. Beyond this the Pak Army already operates this missile. And lastly the is zero ground breaking tech on the HQ-16. The US has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with China not wanting to share source codes with a competitor which would then have to integrate the missiles on the MILGEM, especially when that competitor is in NATO. It is the same reasons that they didnt allow the source codes for SD-10 to be integrated into a western radar for JF-17. You want their munitions, then you need their tech and missiles. US does the same thing with a few countries that are granted exceptions.

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## monitor

Tank131 said:


> Unlikely. Hq-16 will already be in PN aboard the Type 054A/P. Beyond this the Pak Army already operates this missile. And lastly the is zero ground breaking tech on the HQ-16. The US has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with China not wanting to share source codes with a competitor which would then have to integrate the missiles on the MILGEM, especially when that competitor is in NATO. It is the same reasons that they didnt allow the source codes for SD-10 to be integrated into a western radar for JF-17. You want their munitions, then you need their tech and missiles. US does the same thing with a few countries that are granted exceptions.




So basically you can't have East west sub system integrate in your JF-17 or in any frigate as expected by many member's here .


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## Tank131

monitor said:


> So basically you can't have East west sub system integrate in your JF-17 or in any frigate as expected by many member's here .


That seems to be the case. It is an issue of China's willingness to allow a western country to perform the integration and vice versa. The Europeans are not likely to allow China access to sensitive tech in order to integrate their weapons on european platforms either. Now, one could ask, why not just allow Pakistan to perform the integration? The likely scenario is, why should we let Pakistan pick and choose weaponry when we want to maintain that line of funds. The chinese want Pakistan to buy Chinese platforms and weapons to use on those platforms. Even if it is on loans, that gives their industry credibility and eventually will be a source of revenue. The same is true for western suppliers

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

monitor said:


> So basically you can't have East west sub system integrate in your JF-17 or in any frigate as expected by many member's here .


Pakistan owns most of the JF-17 project, so any constraint there is largely removable if you put money into it. That's why PAC/AvRID is working on sourcing an original AESA radar internally.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Pakistan owns most of the JF-17 project, so any constraint there is largely removable if you put money into it. That's why PAC/AvRID is working on sourcing an original AESA radar internally.


Exactly, but the entire "ecosystem" needs to change for that. For western weapons Pakistan needs western radars (or its own if its willing to give access to Europeans/Americans to intergrate their weapons and vice versa). For Chinese weapons the reverse is true. For block I and II, the west was being stingy on radar specs and PAF was very gun shy on relying on west for munitions. The Chinese were offering a better radar and while the weapon (sd-10) was unproven, it was embargo free. Come to block 3, and now Pakistan wants the western radar but PAF has a huge cache of Chinese weapons from SD-10, c802, cm-400AKG and numerous a2g weapons. Rather than going on a munitions shopping spree for blk III, they just want to integrate the weapons to the western radar (likely vixen 1000E). Additionally, the west will likley not be willing to match the future weapons of blk III (PL-15 and PL-10) with meteor and asraam, so it again is in the same ballpark as blk I/II.

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## cabatli_53

Turkey is accelerating the naval programs with expanding the number of naval shipyards that is going to construct warships/submarines. İzmir Alaybey shipyard will start construction under the Asfat As. 






3 floating dock is also under the construction. All will have a length more than 170m and 10000t capacity. First floating dock will be delivered in this month.

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## Rafi



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## dBSPL

Rafi said:


>


Bro, thank you for sharing. Network centric warfare is currently the most intensive concept of the TN and TAF working on. All infrastructures from guidance systems to platform navigations and communication protocols are building around this concept.

By the way, the interface and management system that you watched the demo consists of 6 million lines of code. And this opens up to the Pakistani navy to privatize its ships. It will be an important achievement for Pakistan.

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## Rafi

dBSPL said:


> Bro, thank you for sharing. Network centric warfare is currently the most intensive concept of the TN and TAF working on. All infrastructures from guidance systems to platform navigations and communication protocols are building around this concept.
> 
> By the way, the interface and management system that you watched the demo consists of 6 million lines of code. And this opens up to the Pakistani navy to privatize its ships. It will be an important achievement for Pakistan.



Really impressed with this and proud of the whole Turkish defence industry. The MLU of the Agosta subs is also very impressive.

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## cabatli_53

In 2020 when burgazada get Advent CMS, there will be a demonstration exercise of working together concept. One ship with Advent will collect the target datas while others deactivate all radar/sensor system and the nonactive ship will get all needed info from active ship and launch missiles at target.

Thanks to Advent CMS, The ships with only 40km SAM missiles will provide aerial protection for hundreds km square as if One ship with long range SAM missiles. If one ship detect enemy aircraft position, other ships will passively strike the target from different locations without being detected by enemy sensors. For this reason, The smaller ships will also receive ADVENT upgrade.

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## Basel

Tank131 said:


> Unlikely. Hq-16 will already be in PN aboard the Type 054A/P. Beyond this the Pak Army already operates this missile. And lastly the is zero ground breaking tech on the HQ-16. The US has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with China not wanting to share source codes with a competitor which would then have to integrate the missiles on the MILGEM, especially when that competitor is in NATO. It is the same reasons that they didnt allow the source codes for SD-10 to be integrated into a western radar for JF-17. You want their munitions, then you need their tech and missiles. US does the same thing with a few countries that are granted exceptions.



Pakistan always use mix of eastern and western systems, so its possible if Turkish boats have western radar then western weapons are deployed with them too.



monitor said:


> So basically you can't have East west sub system integrate in your JF-17 or in any frigate as expected by many member's here .



Nope, Pakistan have combo of west+east systems on many platforms already.


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## Tank131

Basel said:


> Pakistan always use mix of eastern and western systems, so its possible if Turkish boats have western radar then western weapons are deployed with them too.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Pakistan have combo of west+east systems on many platforms already.


That is not entirely accurate/true. You may be referring to F-7s which operate sidewinders. While the platform is indeed Chinese/Russian in origin, the fire control radar is Italian and as such integration of sidewinders is a given. The reverse is true for the Amazons which operates the LY-60 SAM. They are British in origin and while the LY-60 is actually an Aspide (Italian) which itself is based on Aim-7 Sparrow. Beyond that, these all were already obsolete at the time of induction. Think about the fact that F-7PG was inducted in 2001!!! No one gave a shit if it operates sidewinder or not. But when you talk about HQ-16A operating from SMART-S mk2, thats a different ballgame. The PLA, PLAAF, PLAN all actively operate this weapon. The Chinese dont want its source codes in western hands. Same is true for SD-10.That is the reason why PAF JF-17 will operate Chinese AESA AND WEAPONS. Otherwise the JF-17 Would be armed with AMRAAM. The reverse is also true. Italians dont want Chinese knowing their radar codes (to integrate sd-10 or pl-15 onto Vixen 1000E). Hence PAF wont operate it. BUT it would be am option married to Meteor and ASRAAM for a foreign buyer.


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## Basel

Tank131 said:


> That is not entirely accurate/true. You may be referring to F-7s which operate sidewinders. While the platform is indeed Chinese/Russian in origin, the fire control radar is Italian and as such integration of sidewinders is a given. The reverse is true for the Amazons which operates the LY-60 SAM. They are British in origin and while the LY-60 is actually an Aspide (Italian) which itself is based on Aim-7 Sparrow. Beyond that, these all were already obsolete at the time of induction. Think about the fact that F-7PG was inducted in 2001!!! No one gave a shit if it operates sidewinder or not. But when you talk about HQ-16A operating from SMART-S mk2, thats a different ballgame. The PLA, PLAAF, PLAN all actively operate this weapon. The Chinese dont want its source codes in western hands. Same is true for SD-10.That is the reason why PAF JF-17 will operate Chinese AESA AND WEAPONS. Otherwise the JF-17 Would be armed with AMRAAM. The reverse is also true. Italians dont want Chinese knowing their radar codes (to integrate sd-10 or pl-15 onto Vixen 1000E). Hence PAF wont operate it. BUT it would be am option married to Meteor and ASRAAM for a foreign buyer.



Nope, many systems from east have western subsystems including F-22P & AK tank.


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## Tank131

Basel said:


> Nope, many systems from east have western subsystems including F-22P & AK tank.


Subsystems maybe, but these are more plug and play and often serve a particular function. They are not integrating weapons systems from one are with radars and firing controls of another. Btw i am unaware of ANY western system on F-22P. Can you shed more light on this?

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## HRK

Tank131 said:


> Subsystems maybe, but these are more plug and play and often serve a particular function. They are not integrating weapons systems from one are with radars and firing controls of another. Btw i am unaware of ANY western system on F-22P. Can you shed more light on this?


Sonar Suit, Engine .... are two publicly known western system installed on F-22P

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## Tank131

HRK said:


> Sonar Suit, Engine .... are two publicly known western system installed on F-22P


Thanks. But again my point regarding weapons systems integration stands. You can add to the above list honeywell engine in K-8 and Martin bakee ejection seats but those again dont require sharing sensitive information

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## HRK

Tank131 said:


> Thanks. But again my point regarding weapons systems integration stands. You can add to the above list honeywell engine in K-8 and Martin bakee ejection seats but those again dont require sharing sensitive information


Actually I was not following your discussion with Basel about weapon integration .... I just read that post of your saw the query about western subsystem on F-22P so replied .....

But one thing we can say about the upgrades of F-22P is that PN is looking other than OEM sources as well .... so what could be the upgrade package is premature to comment at this stage ....


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## Basel

Tank131 said:


> Subsystems maybe, but these are more plug and play and often serve a particular function. They are not integrating weapons systems from one are with radars and firing controls of another. Btw i am unaware of ANY western system on F-22P. Can you shed more light on this?



You are unaware of many things, kindly get awareness then talk on subject please.


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## Tank131

Basel said:


> You are unaware of many things, kindly get awareness then talk on subject please.


 Tell you what, l get awareness when you stop being a rude jackass. I asked you ernestly to expand on your comments on F-22P. HRK kindly did so. But my point remained that nothing to do with the integration of weapons systems and sensors has crossed East/West in Pakistans modern military. IE radars from china married to missiles from the west or vice versa. It is this way obviously due to political issues but is it true. It could be made untrue if china or a western oem budges, but that doesnt seem likely. Now unless you can enlighten us as to the exceptions i suggest you stop puffing out your chest like some beauty pagent reject.

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## Basel

Tank131 said:


> Tell you what, l get awareness when you stop being a rude jackass. I asked you ernestly to expand on your comments on F-22P. HRK kindly did so. But my point remained that nothing to do with the integration of weapons systems and sensors has crossed East/West in Pakistans modern military. IE radars from china married to missiles from the west or vice versa. It is this way obviously due to political issues but is it true. It could be made untrue if china or a western oem budges, but that doesnt seem likely. Now unless you can enlighten us as to the exceptions i suggest you stop puffing out your chest like some beauty pagent reject.



First learn ethics then talk to other, people like you are burden on Pakistan.

Post reported.

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## ARMalik

The Turks utilise Naval equivalent MIL-STD 1553, MIL-STD 1760 (and so on) or Equivalent NATO standards. This applies to Milgem ships as well. Hence PN can literally plug and play anything, East or West, as long as the provider is also producing products as per these standards. So technically, there is nothing stopping PN from using variety of radars, weapons and so on, unless there is political decision not to do so. But I would find it highly unlikely that PN or Pakistan Military would put some sort of restrictions on the weapons originating from East or West because it defeats the whole purpose of Pakistan Military's diversification plans.

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## Tank131

Basel said:


> First learn ethics then talk to other, people like you are burden on Pakistan.
> 
> Post reported.


Good to know since i am not technically pakistani but of Pakistani origin. As far as ethics you hypocrite, you are the one who took a legitimate question where i was seeking your input and made a deragatory comment. People like you who think they are entitled to abuse others on this forum because they are hidden behind their keyboards are not only a burden on Pakistan but on healthy discussions here. Fix your arrogant attitude before you ever talk to anyone here again. Look on this forum and you will never find me having talked to anyone in the manner you have, but im not gonna sit back and listen to abuse from dillweeds like yourself. Needless to say you have not been able to answer my question because you are too wrapper into a rage bender so i will be ignoring you for now.

You are also reported.

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## araz

Basel said:


> You are unaware of many things, kindly get awareness then talk on subject please.


Iam sorry to say but your remark came as a disappointment to me. You havealways been a keen and level headed poster but this one is very unlike you. As a senior poster you have certin responsibilities and a level of professionalism you need to maintain. If you dont agree with another poster but cannot disclose information please agree to disagree and move on.
I hope you will take this post in the light in which it is written.
Regards
A



Tank131 said:


> Thanks. But again my point regarding weapons systems integration stands. You can add to the above list honeywell engine in K-8 and Martin bakee ejection seats but those again dont require sharing sensitive information


PN has had issues in the past integrating Eastern and Western systems. They tried to integrate systems on the F21s and did not succeed. However things have moved on from there. As the aviation industry has moved people are gaining more and more confidence and trying to integrate armaments from multiple providers. However, from the recent contracts on the 90Bs it seems we still have some way to go. The real test may well come with the refitting of the 22s.
To a rank outsider like me it seems PN and indeed multiple branches of Pak forces appear not to be collaborating with each other to utilize each other's skill sets. Lets see how this pans out.
A

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Pakistan owns most of the JF-17 project, so any constraint there is largely removable if you put money into it. That's why PAC/AvRID is working on sourcing an original AESA radar internally.


I wonder if someone could shed some light on the issue of collaboration between the various branches of the Pak forces.
The point I am trying to make is that whereas AWC is working on an indegenous AESA could this effort on success be translated into AESA radars for the PA and PN. I fail to understand why we cannot translate one aspect of success into another. 
A2A missiles are another sphere of interoperability. Can it be translated into SAMs as the tech for the rocket should be the same. Possibly the constraints of miniaturization might not be required for a SAM as it would for an AAM. Once in case of success with MRAAM can we translate it into Medium to long range SAMS and so on.
If someone can highlight what the tech difficulties are I would be obliged. To me commonality of armaments will lead to economy of scale as well as enough orders for the country to be able to manufacture the systems.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> I wonder if someone could shed some light on the issue of collaboration between the various branches of the Pak forces.
> The point I am trying to make is that whereas AWC is working on an indegenous AESA could this effort on success be translated into AESA radars for the PA and PN. I fail to understand why we cannot translate one aspect of success into another.
> A2A missiles are another sphere of interoperability. Can it be translated into SAMs as the tech for the rocket should be the same. Possibly the constraints of miniaturization might not be required for a SAM as it would for an AAM. Once in case of success with MRAAM can we translate it into Medium to long range SAMS and so on.
> If someone can highlight what the tech difficulties are I would be obliged. To me commonality of armaments will lead to economy of scale as well as enough orders for the country to be able to manufacture the systems.
> A


It's probably still siloed.

There's some cooperation, e.g. PAC was rewiring the PAA's AH-1s, and if PAA and PN select AW139, PAC can support them. 

Otherwise, it seems AvRID and AWC are primarily doing PAF work.

We don't yet have an overarching electronics bureau to streamline interservices radar work, though NRTC could be a starting point.

Sadly, silos and limited vision prevail.

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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> You are unaware of many things, kindly get awareness then talk on subject please.



Hi,

Oh wow---. 

Seems like you got a promotion at work or got the ear of your boss.

This kind of attitude with one of the most literate person on naval weapons systems on the forum is strange to say the least---.

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## Tank131

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh wow---.
> 
> Seems like you got a promotion at work or got the ear of your boss.
> 
> This kind of attitude with one of the most literate person on naval weapons systems on the forum is strange to say the least---.


I dont think i would go that far as there are many well respected and far more knowledgeable members here than myself, but very much appreciate your kind words.

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## Armchair

araz said:


> I wonder if someone could shed some light on the issue of collaboration between the various branches of the Pak forces.
> The point I am trying to make is that whereas AWC is working on an indegenous AESA could this effort on success be translated into AESA radars for the PA and PN. I fail to understand why we cannot translate one aspect of success into another.
> A2A missiles are another sphere of interoperability. Can it be translated into SAMs as the tech for the rocket should be the same. Possibly the constraints of miniaturization might not be required for a SAM as it would for an AAM. Once in case of success with MRAAM can we translate it into Medium to long range SAMS and so on.
> If someone can highlight what the tech difficulties are I would be obliged. To me commonality of armaments will lead to economy of scale as well as enough orders for the country to be able to manufacture the systems.
> A



I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread

It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
Local AShMs.
Sam system based on the SD10.
Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
In short:
1000 tons
KORKUT
SD10 medium SAMs
6x AShMs
Hull mounted sonar
Crew 20
Camcopter type UAV

If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.

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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread
> 
> It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
> A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
> Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
> Local AShMs.
> Sam system based on the SD10.
> Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
> Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
> In short:
> 1000 tons
> KORKUT
> SD10 medium SAMs
> 6x AShMs
> Hull mounted sonar
> Crew 20
> Camcopter type UAV
> 
> If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.



Considering our requirement jf17 ewuivallent of navy is difficult. However we need to invest in sub systems that can be used with little modifications in all the three branches.

Radars, seekers, warheads, armoured vehicles, communication equipment and different type of sensors.

Investment in these areas will create local jobs as well save the foreign reserves which can be used in procuring the latest technologies

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread
> 
> It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
> A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
> Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
> Local AShMs.
> Sam system based on the SD10.
> Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
> Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
> In short:
> 1000 tons
> KORKUT
> SD10 medium SAMs
> 6x AShMs
> Hull mounted sonar
> Crew 20
> Camcopter type UAV
> 
> If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.



I think enlarging Azmat to 2x its size will enable such a corvette. Im not sure the DK-10 (SAM version of sd-10) is navalized just yet, nor if it would fit on such a corvette, but the Umkhonto EIR would and with a 35km range is better than anything currently in PN. You could fit 4 C-802 on it and instead of Korkurt/Gokdeniz CIWS i would consider Pantsir-M.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> I think enlarging Azmat to 2x its size will enable such a corvette. Im not sure the DK-10 (SAM version of sd-10) is navalized just yet, nor if it would fit on such a corvette, but the Umkhonto EIR would and with a 35km range is better than anything currently in PN. You could fit 4 C-802 on it and instead of Korkurt/Gokdeniz CIWS i would consider Pantsir-M.



If you put all that it will cost about 100 million per ship.

What I am suggesting gets us a capable corvette for about half that amount and little of that money goes out of the country.

Enlarging Azmat is an option but problem with Azmat is structurally it is not amenable to enlargement. You would basically have to enlarge it from a fresh piece of paper.

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> If you put all that it will cost about 100 million per ship.
> 
> What I am suggesting gets us a capable corvette for about half that amount and little of that money goes out of the country.
> 
> Enlarging Azmat is an option but problem with Azmat is structurally it is not amenable to enlargement. You would basically have to enlarge it from a fresh piece of paper.


I think if you want a 1000t ship with sufficient Aianti air, surface and sub capabilities you will need to spend around $100M per ship. But compare that to the price of current F-22P ($175M) which are 3x the size with similar capabilities (except carrying more ASHM but inferior Air defense) i think it is a reasonable price. If you want it cheaper you would need to skimp on something (likely anti sub capability). In that case you may as well restructure the Azmat but keep its size.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> I think if you want a 1000t ship with sufficient Aianti air, surface and sub capabilities you will need to spend around $100M per ship. But compare that to the price of current F-22P ($175M) which are 3x the size with similar capabilities (except carrying more ASHM but inferior Air defense) i think it is a reasonable price. If you want it cheaper you would need to skimp on something (likely anti sub capability). In that case you may as well restructure the Azmat but keep its size.



If we use Turkish Hull mounted sonar, local SAM, local antiship, and ciws at A position, and reduce the helicopter to a UAV, we can have all of that at about 50 million. 
Umkhomto itself will cost minimum 25 million. 
These foreign systems in your spec sheet double the price... 
Now imagine if we use a single AESA radar for both fire and scan, and if this AESA is developed from the JFT indigenous radar being developed. 
Would be an 80 - 20 solution.
Yes, such a configuration would not have the full blown capabilities of the Turkish corvettes, but give 80 percent of the capability and 20% of the price.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The delivery time is not favorable

60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame

Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years

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## Armchair

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The delivery time is not favorable
> 
> 60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame
> 
> Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years



KSEW had a learning curve and also needs and org restructuring.
And if all else fails get China or Damen to build the specified frame.


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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> If we use Turkish Hull mounted sonar, local SAM, local antiship, and ciws at A position, and reduce the helicopter to a UAV, we can have all of that at about 50 million.
> Umkhomto itself will cost minimum 25 million.
> These foreign systems in your spec sheet double the price...
> Now imagine if we use a single AESA radar for both fire and scan, and if this AESA is developed from the JFT indigenous radar being developed.
> Would be an 80 - 20 solution.
> Yes, such a configuration would not have the full blown capabilities of the Turkish corvettes, but give 80 percent of the capability and 20% of the price.


The problem is there is no local sam exceot Anza (so why even add it), and no local CIWS, nor a helicopter drone. The development of these would be over 100m each. While i get what you are saying, the entire problem is off the shelf solutions are needed because Pakistan doesn't have these things. Now we know the hulls likely could be cheap as Pakistan sourced Damen hulls for ~$50M/ship (if im not mistaken @Bilal Khan (Quwa)). I would suggest going for an 850-1000t up scaled design based on Azmat design (its the same concept that the Turks were doing milgem/tf-100/tf-2000 designs). Add a hulk mounted sonar, torpedos, and rocket oropelled depth charges If you dont want to spendthe money for Umkhonto, then remove the current main gun of Azmat and replace it with Pantsir-M which has 2 gatling style CIWS guns and 8 missiles with 20km range. Keep the rear AK-630 move the RHIB dock to a side bay. Replace the rear RHIB dock with a small helipad for a SAR/light attack/dipped sonar unmanned utility chopper...like a modied AVIC AV-500W. It already is armed with 2 8kg antitank missiles with 5km range. Im sure the thing could also be modified to drop life saving equipment (like a self inflatable raft) if utilized for SAR and remain on station until help from the main ship (a RHIB or mother ship itself) arrived. It could also be modified to use dipped sonar array and maybe a few depth charges for antisub role (probably too small for even a light torpedo)



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The delivery time is not favorable
> 
> 60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame
> 
> Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years


That doesn't mean you dont build capacity. Remember there are changes made to 4th Azmat that apparently done in house. Some of that likely extended the time for construction. Are they going to pumpnout ships as fast as china right away, no but slowly they will build capacity. I thino the planning though must start from today.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> The problem is there is no local sam exceot Anza (so why even add it), and no local CIWS, nor a helicopter drone. The development of these would be over 100m each. While i get what you are saying, the entire problem is off the shelf solutions are needed because Pakistan doesn't have these things. Now we know the hulls likely could be cheap as Pakistan sourced Damen hulls for ~$50M/ship (if im not mistaken @Bilal Khan (Quwa)). I would suggest going for an 850-1000t up scaled design based on Azmat design (its the same concept that the Turks were doing milgem/tf-100/tf-2000 designs). Add a hulk mounted sonar, torpedos, and rocket oropelled depth charges If you dont want to spendthe money for Umkhonto, then remove the current main gun of Azmat and replace it with Pantsir-M which has 2 gatling style CIWS guns and 8 missiles with 20km range. Keep the rear AK-630 move the RHIB dock to a side bay. Replace the rear RHIB dock with a small helipad for a SAR/light attack/dipped sonar unmanned utility chopper...like a modied AVIC AV-500W. It already is armed with 2 8kg antitank missiles with 5km range. Im sure the thing could also be modified to drop life saving equipment (like a self inflatable raft) if utilized for SAR and remain on station until help from the main ship (a RHIB or mother ship itself) arrived. It could also be modified to use dipped sonar array and maybe a few depth charges for antisub role (probably too small for even a light torpedo)
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean you dont build capacity. Remember there are changes made to 4th Azmat that apparently done in house. Some of that likely extended the time for construction. Are they going to pumpnout ships as fast as china right away, no but slowly they will build capacity. I thino the planning though must start from today.



Ask your boys in black - there is an indigenous SAM in development maybe you may see it on a ship soon...
You don't need an indigenous ciws, korkut or a 630 will do. 630s are dirt cheap... 
Unlike the umkhomto which costs minimum 25 million usd.

Go for a Turkish sonar, they are equal to any Western system. 

Are we done?

Regarding uav - go with the seibel camcopter or the cheaper Korean system. At worse case go with a DJI Drone - costs about 20000 usd only. I used to be a dealer

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Ask your boys in black - there is an indigenous SAM in development maybe you may see it on a ship soon...
> You don't need an indigenous ciws, korkut or a 630 will do. 630s are dirt cheap...
> Unlike the umkhomto which costs minimum 25 million usd.
> 
> Go for a Turkish sonar, they are equal to any Western system.
> 
> Are we done?
> 
> Regarding uav - go with the seibel camcopter or the cheaper Korean system. At worse case go with a DJI Drone - costs about 20000 usd only. I used to be a dealer



I hope you are correct on the SAM, but i am confident i will be underwhelmed (likely low to medium ranged, single packed not navalized). Lol, i know i have nothing to base that on but we all know how it goes lolz!

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## ziya

in a interview with meteksan officals he said pakistan intented to use sonar system on milgem that different from original but we showed that our sonar system is better and cheaper so they decided to go meteksan yakamos sonar system as original milgem,so ı understand that pakistan is not easy customer its good for you and also for us to challenge

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## HRK

ziya said:


> in a interview with meteksan officals he said pakistan intented to use sonar system on milgem that different from original but we showed that our sonar system is better and cheaper so they decided to go meteksan yakamos sonar system as original milgem,so ı understand that pakistan is not easy customer its good for you and also for us to challenge


any idea PN was interested sonar system of which country initially other then Turkish sonar .... ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> any idea PN was interested sonar system of which country initially other then Turkish sonar .... ???


Didn't Pakistan at one point make its own TAS?

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Didn't Pakistan at one point make its own TAS?


yaap .... Slim Line Towed Array Sonar-SLTA from GIDS [link]

Turkish Yakamos is a Hull mounted Sonar and Jinnah Class Frigate would have the improved version named Yakamos-2020 rather the baseline version of the same sonar system


> We are constantly improving YAKAMOS, *and the sonars we will deliver to Pakistan shall be the most up-to-date, harbouring all of the mentioned improvements.*


Source Meteksan Website

But it is just my guess that Yakamos was competing against one of the version of German Atlas Elektronik Hull mounted Sonar-ASO, interesting thing about this sonar is that as we know ASO-94 sonar is installed in F-22P Zulfiqar Class Frigates which was superior to anything Indian Navy previously had but in *2018* Indian Navy has also adopted one of the Towed Array Sonar-TASO from ATLAS ELEKTRONIK which offer approximately 60 km range depending upon water conditions [link]

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## ziya

HRK said:


> any idea PN was interested sonar system of which country initially other then Turkish sonar .... ???


we do not know which country but sonar is already in use for a long time

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## Max

I don't like the way every minor detail is being published by Turkish media about equipment. There should be some surprise element for enemy.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Turks want to be a major arms exporter in the world. Mash-hoori.


Max said:


> I don't like the way every minor detail is being published by Turkish media about equipment. There should be some surprise element for enemy.

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## HRK

ziya said:


> we do not know which country but sonar is already in use for a long time


Yaap I know that it is operational with Milgem corvettes and If I am not wrong would also installed on Barbaros class Frigates of TN during their mid life refit/modernization program.

So I was not questioning the capabilities of Yakamoz sonar but was interested to know the second contender which I believe was German sonar, I was just trying to know is there anything related to second contender published in Turkish media.

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## ziya

barbaros class modernization sonar is different its from aselsan-armelsan,sorry for misunderstanding the sonar has been using on pakistan navy for a long time so pak officials continue to use it but changed their mind in favour of turkish one

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## cabatli_53

Max said:


> I don't like the way every minor detail is being published by Turkish media about equipment. There should be some surprise element for enemy.



Surprises are on features. We just give the details about what is being allowed. Turkey has almost all detail features about European and US tools as well snce we were the major costumers of them until Turkish industry replaced them with domestic equivalents. Atlas electronic sonars, Ultra electronic torpedo defense systems, dippling/intercept sonars, DM2A4 torpedos all are actively used by TN so What Turkey is developing must be revealed with more advanced features. This policy is a “Must” otherwise, No need to replace them with inferior systems. In this situation, Meteksan promotes Yakamos2020 sonar with claiming to be a superior than the one Atlas offers and Turkish institutes have secret informations that is gained while comparing both systems. Most likely, officials reveal those datas in front of a major costumers to convince them.

Yakamos sonar for Milgem corvettes






Yakamos2020 will be the main sonar of I class and Jinnah class frigates.






Aselsan Fersah sonar will be used on Barbaros(MEKO track IIA/B) modernization

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## ziya

what is the difference between fersah and yakamoz sonar sytems?


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## cabatli_53

ziya said:


> what is the difference between fersah and yakamoz sonar sytems?



I believe Aselsan is packing Meteksan made piezoelectric seramics to produce their sonar transfucers in order to form Fersah sonar since Meteksan has vast of experience and great reseach, development and test center for acoustic system/subsystem technologies. SSB has even charged Meteksan to develop seeker head sonar of Akya heavy weight torpedos as well but Aselsan has longer arms on export markets. That must be a win-win deal betwen them.

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## ziya



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## HRK

ziya said:


> View attachment 606229


name of magazine / source plz ....


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## xbat

i couldnt understand why they needed additional 40 personnel, the ship basically have only VLS as a difference.


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## ziya

defence turkey latest issue

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## Kabotar

ziya said:


> View attachment 606229


The last line that got cut was probably the most important one.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*A Look at Latest Status of the PN MİLGEM Project*
Issue 97

The project, which was signed on September 6, 2018, and started on March 11, 2019 (T0), includes the construction of a total of 4 frigates based on the ADA Class Corvette design for the Pakistan Navy. Two of the ships will be built at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard and the other two at the Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan.

This agreement is the single highest value contract signed by the Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry to date, and it marks a historic moment as it is the first domestically designed warship export. Taking the floor at the 9th Naval Systems Seminar held on October 14-15, 2019, at METU Culture and Congress Center, Ministry of National Defence (MSB) Shipyard's Deputy Director-General Rear Admiral (Lower Half) Mehmet SARI, made a speech about the PN MİLGEM Project and said, “We received the project worth over €1 billion from Pakistan despite all kinds of negative attempts by the Americans and this also paved the way for the Helicopter (T129B ATAK) Project.”

The construction of the first frigate was officially commenced with the first steel cutting ceremony held within the scope of the Delivery Ceremony of the TCG Kınalıada Corvette on September 29, 2019. The first steel to be used on the first ship of the Pakistan Navy MİLGEM (PN MİLGEM) Project was cut by President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN and Pakistan Navy Commander Admiral Zafar Mahmood ABBASI. The first ship under the PN MİLGEM project is planned to be delivered in Turkey in August 2023.

According to the production process calendar shared by the main contractor of the project, Military Factory and Shipyard Management Inc. (ASFAT), the first ship will be completed in the T0+54th month in Turkey, the second ship in the 60th month in Pakistan, the third ship in the 66th month in Turkey, and the last ship in the 72th month in Pakistan. There will be a 6-year time difference between the construction of the first ship and the delivery of the fourth ship. The last frigate of the Jinnah Class will be delivered at Karachi in 2025 and will enter the Pakistan Navy inventory.

Within the scope of the AMAN-2019 Exercise, which was hosted by the Pakistan Navy on February 8-12, 2019, in the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean with the participation of Defence Turkey Magazine as a special guest, Pakistan Navy (PN) Commander Admiral ABBASI visited the TCG Gökçeada Frigate and announced that Jinnah Class Corvettes (Pakistan Navy classifies them as Corvettes) will be equipped with a Vertical Launching System (VLS). However, he did not share any information about the number of ships to be equipped with the VLS. The ship image, which was shown at the PN MİLGEM Project 1st Steel Cutting Ceremony on September 29, 2019, featured two 8-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) modules behind the main cannon as well as an Aselsan GÖKDENİZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS) where the RIM-116 Mk49 Lancer is located. We also learned that there would be some differences in the design of the fourth Jinnah Class Frigate. Pakistani engineers and technicians who will begin on-the-job training during the construction of the first ship are expected to acquire the necessary know-how to make changes to the ADA Class Corvette design until the construction of the fourth ship. It was also stated that the fourth vessel would be designed jointly, and it will also be the first frigate designed by Pakistan with its own means. Due to VLS integration, the Jinnah Class will be longer and heavier than the ADA Class.

It is considered that the propulsion system to be used in Jinnah Class Frigates, which will be shaped according to the requirements of the Pakistan Navy, will include only diesel engines and not the LM2500 gas turbine. ADA Class Corvettes can reach a maximum speed of 31 knots with their propulsion system in the Combined Diesel and Gas (CODAG) configuration, which consists of two 32MW diesel engines and a gas turbine, while the maximum cruising speed of the Jinnah Class is 26 knots. We learned that the Jinnah Class Frigates will accommodate an additional 40 personnel compared to the ADA Class, and include ablution rooms and a small mosque. Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future. As noted above, the RIM-116B (Block 1A) Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) and the 21-cell Mk 49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) located on the helicopter hangar, will be replaced with 20mm Phalanx or Aselsan product 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS. The ships will also be equipped with two 8-cell VLS, which can launch LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missiles. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. Some of those are the Havelsan ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan ARES-2N ESM (ships are also expected to use AREAS-2NC ECM System), HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System, SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar, YALTES product EPKİS Integrated Platform Management System, and the Meteksan Defence product the YAKAMOS Hull-Mounted Sonar System. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSoft for the Pakistan Navy and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green.” The Pakistan Navy has established a nationwide communication infrastructure called RedLine to enable communication between NIXS-equipped platforms.

Meanwhile, the Main Contractor ASFAT and Aselsan signed a €176.9 million contract on November 14, 2019, for the supply and integration of Aselsan product systems and equipment to be included in the Jinnah Class Frigates. Under this contract, Aselsan will make its deliveries between 2022-2023.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824

@JamD @Tank131

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> “We received the project worth over €1 billion from Pakistan despite all kinds of negative attempts by the Americans and this also paved the way for the Helicopter (T129B ATAK) Project.”[/USER]




What objections did the Americans have and do they have to inject their legs into everyone's business.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> which can launch LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missiles


Are there any air defence systems which have a longer range than HHQ 16 and can be available to us?

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *A Look at Latest Status of the PN MİLGEM Project*
> Issue 97
> 
> The project, which was signed on September 6, 2018, and started on March 11, 2019 (T0), includes the construction of a total of 4 frigates based on the ADA Class Corvette design for the Pakistan Navy. Two of the ships will be built at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard and the other two at the Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan.
> 
> This agreement is the single highest value contract signed by the Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry to date, and it marks a historic moment as it is the first domestically designed warship export. Taking the floor at the 9th Naval Systems Seminar held on October 14-15, 2019, at METU Culture and Congress Center, Ministry of National Defence (MSB) Shipyard's Deputy Director-General Rear Admiral (Lower Half) Mehmet SARI, made a speech about the PN MİLGEM Project and said, “We received the project worth over €1 billion from Pakistan despite all kinds of negative attempts by the Americans and this also paved the way for the Helicopter (T129B ATAK) Project.”
> 
> The construction of the first frigate was officially commenced with the first steel cutting ceremony held within the scope of the Delivery Ceremony of the TCG Kınalıada Corvette on September 29, 2019. The first steel to be used on the first ship of the Pakistan Navy MİLGEM (PN MİLGEM) Project was cut by President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN and Pakistan Navy Commander Admiral Zafar Mahmood ABBASI. The first ship under the PN MİLGEM project is planned to be delivered in Turkey in August 2023.
> 
> According to the production process calendar shared by the main contractor of the project, Military Factory and Shipyard Management Inc. (ASFAT), the first ship will be completed in the T0+54th month in Turkey, the second ship in the 60th month in Pakistan, the third ship in the 66th month in Turkey, and the last ship in the 72th month in Pakistan. There will be a 6-year time difference between the construction of the first ship and the delivery of the fourth ship. The last frigate of the Jinnah Class will be delivered at Karachi in 2025 and will enter the Pakistan Navy inventory.
> 
> Within the scope of the AMAN-2019 Exercise, which was hosted by the Pakistan Navy on February 8-12, 2019, in the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean with the participation of Defence Turkey Magazine as a special guest, Pakistan Navy (PN) Commander Admiral ABBASI visited the TCG Gökçeada Frigate and announced that Jinnah Class Corvettes (Pakistan Navy classifies them as Corvettes) will be equipped with a Vertical Launching System (VLS). However, he did not share any information about the number of ships to be equipped with the VLS. The ship image, which was shown at the PN MİLGEM Project 1st Steel Cutting Ceremony on September 29, 2019, featured two 8-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) modules behind the main cannon as well as an Aselsan GÖKDENİZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS) where the RIM-116 Mk49 Lancer is located. We also learned that there would be some differences in the design of the fourth Jinnah Class Frigate. Pakistani engineers and technicians who will begin on-the-job training during the construction of the first ship are expected to acquire the necessary know-how to make changes to the ADA Class Corvette design until the construction of the fourth ship. It was also stated that the fourth vessel would be designed jointly, and it will also be the first frigate designed by Pakistan with its own means. Due to VLS integration, the Jinnah Class will be longer and heavier than the ADA Class.
> 
> It is considered that the propulsion system to be used in Jinnah Class Frigates, which will be shaped according to the requirements of the Pakistan Navy, will include only diesel engines and not the LM2500 gas turbine. ADA Class Corvettes can reach a maximum speed of 31 knots with their propulsion system in the Combined Diesel and Gas (CODAG) configuration, which consists of two 32MW diesel engines and a gas turbine, while the maximum cruising speed of the Jinnah Class is 26 knots. We learned that the Jinnah Class Frigates will accommodate an additional 40 personnel compared to the ADA Class, and include ablution rooms and a small mosque. Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future. As noted above, the RIM-116B (Block 1A) Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) and the 21-cell Mk 49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) located on the helicopter hangar, will be replaced with 20mm Phalanx or Aselsan product 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS. The ships will also be equipped with two 8-cell VLS, which can launch LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missiles. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. Some of those are the Havelsan ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan ARES-2N ESM (ships are also expected to use AREAS-2NC ECM System), HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System, SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar, YALTES product EPKİS Integrated Platform Management System, and the Meteksan Defence product the YAKAMOS Hull-Mounted Sonar System. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSoft for the Pakistan Navy and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green.” The Pakistan Navy has established a nationwide communication infrastructure called RedLine to enable communication between NIXS-equipped platforms.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Main Contractor ASFAT and Aselsan signed a €176.9 million contract on November 14, 2019, for the supply and integration of Aselsan product systems and equipment to be included in the Jinnah Class Frigates. Under this contract, Aselsan will make its deliveries between 2022-2023.
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824
> 
> @JamD @Tank131



I'm assuming this means that all Jinnah class will have vls and that the 4th will be further modified. That is good news (although we were all speculating as much). Beyond this it appears that the chinese have allowed integration of both C-802A AND HQ-16, although i am still hopeful the PN will pursue CAMM-ER for equipment on its vessels (maybe in the future when CAMM-ER hits markets). perhaps that will be one of the changes on 4th Jinnah class. All and all, with Damen (hopefully another 4 to be ordered), all Jinnahs by 2025, 4 Type 054A, Hangor, upgrades to A90b, PN is like a Phoenix, rising from ashes of ineptitude. Hopefully the F-22P will get some love next woth an MLU (and if CAMM-ER comes to milgem, hopefully they will come to F-22Pmlu as well). That will be a potent fleet.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *A Look at Latest Status of the PN MİLGEM Project*
> Issue 97
> 
> The project, which was signed on September 6, 2018, and started on March 11, 2019 (T0), includes the construction of a total of 4 frigates based on the ADA Class Corvette design for the Pakistan Navy. Two of the ships will be built at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard and the other two at the Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan.
> 
> This agreement is the single highest value contract signed by the Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry to date, and it marks a historic moment as it is the first domestically designed warship export. Taking the floor at the 9th Naval Systems Seminar held on October 14-15, 2019, at METU Culture and Congress Center, Ministry of National Defence (MSB) Shipyard's Deputy Director-General Rear Admiral (Lower Half) Mehmet SARI, made a speech about the PN MİLGEM Project and said, “We received the project worth over €1 billion from Pakistan despite all kinds of negative attempts by the Americans and this also paved the way for the Helicopter (T129B ATAK) Project.”
> 
> The construction of the first frigate was officially commenced with the first steel cutting ceremony held within the scope of the Delivery Ceremony of the TCG Kınalıada Corvette on September 29, 2019. The first steel to be used on the first ship of the Pakistan Navy MİLGEM (PN MİLGEM) Project was cut by President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN and Pakistan Navy Commander Admiral Zafar Mahmood ABBASI. The first ship under the PN MİLGEM project is planned to be delivered in Turkey in August 2023.
> 
> According to the production process calendar shared by the main contractor of the project, Military Factory and Shipyard Management Inc. (ASFAT), the first ship will be completed in the T0+54th month in Turkey, the second ship in the 60th month in Pakistan, the third ship in the 66th month in Turkey, and the last ship in the 72th month in Pakistan. There will be a 6-year time difference between the construction of the first ship and the delivery of the fourth ship. The last frigate of the Jinnah Class will be delivered at Karachi in 2025 and will enter the Pakistan Navy inventory.
> 
> Within the scope of the AMAN-2019 Exercise, which was hosted by the Pakistan Navy on February 8-12, 2019, in the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean with the participation of Defence Turkey Magazine as a special guest, Pakistan Navy (PN) Commander Admiral ABBASI visited the TCG Gökçeada Frigate and announced that Jinnah Class Corvettes (Pakistan Navy classifies them as Corvettes) will be equipped with a Vertical Launching System (VLS). However, he did not share any information about the number of ships to be equipped with the VLS. The ship image, which was shown at the PN MİLGEM Project 1st Steel Cutting Ceremony on September 29, 2019, featured two 8-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) modules behind the main cannon as well as an Aselsan GÖKDENİZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS) where the RIM-116 Mk49 Lancer is located. We also learned that there would be some differences in the design of the fourth Jinnah Class Frigate. Pakistani engineers and technicians who will begin on-the-job training during the construction of the first ship are expected to acquire the necessary know-how to make changes to the ADA Class Corvette design until the construction of the fourth ship. It was also stated that the fourth vessel would be designed jointly, and it will also be the first frigate designed by Pakistan with its own means. Due to VLS integration, the Jinnah Class will be longer and heavier than the ADA Class.
> 
> It is considered that the propulsion system to be used in Jinnah Class Frigates, which will be shaped according to the requirements of the Pakistan Navy, will include only diesel engines and not the LM2500 gas turbine. ADA Class Corvettes can reach a maximum speed of 31 knots with their propulsion system in the Combined Diesel and Gas (CODAG) configuration, which consists of two 32MW diesel engines and a gas turbine, while the maximum cruising speed of the Jinnah Class is 26 knots. We learned that the Jinnah Class Frigates will accommodate an additional 40 personnel compared to the ADA Class, and include ablution rooms and a small mosque. Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future. As noted above, the RIM-116B (Block 1A) Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) and the 21-cell Mk 49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) located on the helicopter hangar, will be replaced with 20mm Phalanx or Aselsan product 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS. The ships will also be equipped with two 8-cell VLS, which can launch LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missiles. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. Some of those are the Havelsan ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan ARES-2N ESM (ships are also expected to use AREAS-2NC ECM System), HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System, SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar, YALTES product EPKİS Integrated Platform Management System, and the Meteksan Defence product the YAKAMOS Hull-Mounted Sonar System. The Jinnah Class Frigates will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSoft for the Pakistan Navy and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green.” The Pakistan Navy has established a nationwide communication infrastructure called RedLine to enable communication between NIXS-equipped platforms.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Main Contractor ASFAT and Aselsan signed a €176.9 million contract on November 14, 2019, for the supply and integration of Aselsan product systems and equipment to be included in the Jinnah Class Frigates. Under this contract, Aselsan will make its deliveries between 2022-2023.
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824
> 
> @JamD @Tank131


The Search Radar is from Thales and Aselsan and the weapons LY 80 and C 802 are Chineese. Have Chineese allowed the integeration of their weapons with Turkish Radar? 
Moreover, there is a size difference between Harbah and C 802 means there will alterations when Harbah will be fitted. Does'nt it shows that harbah is not operational as of now otherwise there is no need of first fitting it with C 802 and then Harbah



Tank131 said:


> I'm assuming this means that all Jinnah class will have vls and that the 4th will be further modified. That is good news (although we were all speculating as much). Beyond this it appears that the chinese have allowed integration of both C-802A AND HQ-16, although i am still hopeful the PN will pursue CAMM-ER for equipment on its vessels (maybe in the future when CAMM-ER hits markets). perhaps that will be one of the changes on 4th Jinnah class. All and all, with Damen (hopefully another 4 to be ordered), all Jinnahs by 2025, 4 Type 054A, Hangor, upgrades to A90b, PN is like a Phoenix, rising from ashes of ineptitude. Hopefully the F-22P will get some love next woth an MLU (and if CAMM-ER comes to milgem, hopefully they will come to F-22Pmlu as well). That will be a potent fleet.


Dont u think we need 4 destroyers now with each accompanying 1 PN Battalion. We need long range Air defence systems like that of HQ 9 which PLAN have on its destroyers. The long range air defence offer better protection against likes of Supersonic AshM like Brahmos

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> The Search Radar is from Thales and Aselsan and the weapons LY 80 and C 802 are Chineese. Have Chineese allowed the integeration of their weapons with Turkish Radar?
> Moreover, there is a size difference between Harbah and C 802 means there will alterations when Harbah will be fitted. Does'nt it shows that harbah is not operational as of now otherwise there is no need of first fitting it with C 802 and then Harbah


Do research before you post, most of modern weapons (Russian/Chinese) have the capability to integrate each other because they using open architectural philosophy, our JF-17 can carry and fire all weapons that utilized by our F-16 including AMRRAM with little to no modifications because our JF-17 using 1553 data bus that are also being used on our F-16

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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> Do research before you post,


Thats what I am doing. Asking capable people to increase my knowledge

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## Haris Ali2140

seven0seven said:


> Do research before you post, most of modern weapons (Russian/Chinese) have the capability to integrate each other because they using open architectural philosophy, our JF-17 can carry and fire all weapons that utilized by our F-16 including AMRRAM with little to no modifications because our JF-17 using 1553 data bus that are also being used on our F-16


Don't get triggered. He is asking a legitimate question.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Thats what I am doing. Asking capable people to increase my knowledge


not i am trying say go to respected defense sites and dig deeply their, they gave you just a general perception of modern tech, and respected defense site gaves you in details/technical view points so you understand more easily
and yes it is possible to Integrate Western AESA and Chinese weapon because they are both using OPEN architectural philosophies


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## GreyHat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As noted above, the RIM-116B (Block 1A) Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) and the 21-cell Mk 49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) located on the helicopter hangar, will be replaced with 20mm Phalanx or Aselsan product 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS.


I remember you mentioning the possibility of RAM R-116 from the German side Raytheon. Is it confirmed that Phalanx will be only used and the possibility of SeaRAM has gone out?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GreyHat said:


> I remember you mentioning the possibility of RAM R-116 from the German side Raytheon. Is it confirmed that Phalanx will be only used and the possibility of SeaRAM has gone out?


The PN must have gone with the Turkish Phalanx-type solution because it couldn't get the RAM via Germany. The German rep I spoke to said the German govt approved it and that it would deal with the US. I guess, like Turkey, it didn't pan out. But it may also be an issue of cost as well.

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## Tank131

GreyHat said:


> I remember you mentioning the possibility of RAM R-116 from the German side Raytheon. Is it confirmed that Phalanx will be only used and the possibility of SeaRAM has gone out?


It doesnt matter which company makes the deal, if the tech of a nation is part of the item, that nation has to give permission for the sale. That is why Pakistan is seeking ITAR free solutions. Any US tech found in an item will require US permission for a sale, even if the other vendor is main manufacturer. For example Israel is not allowed to sell its radars from Elta unless it gets US approval. For a long time EL/M was expected to equip the LCA but US refused. Only now its possibily going to equip Jaguars (not sure if us has approved that already or not). When there was word that a chinese company copied the 2052,the US launched an investigation to make sure that wasnt given by Israel because most of Eltas tech is based on US. Even Phalcon AWAC sale to china was vetoed. So to sell RAM to Pakistan, even through Germany would require US approval. That will usually never happen for a complete system like RAM because if the US was ok with the sale, they would tell Pakistan to buy from us directly. The situation with ATAK is also in front of you and is similar (US engine).

Only thing i dont get is if the Chinese have approved C802 AND HQ-16, Why not go for FL-3000N instead of a phalanx or Gokdeniz, or at least a Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10?

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## LKJ86

seven0seven said:


> most of modern weapons (Russian/Chinese) have the capability to integrate each other because they using open architectural philosophy


The answer is no.
For example, China's J-11B/15/16 can't use Russia's munitions, and PLAAF's Su-35SK also can't use China's munitions.

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> The answer is no.
> For example, China's J-11B/15/16 can't use Russia's munitions, and PLAAF's Su-35SK also can't use China's munitions.


I mean export oriented jets like Mig-35/J-10C


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## LKJ86

seven0seven said:


> yes it is possible to Integrate Western AESA and Chinese weapon because they are both using OPEN architectural philosophies


It isn't that simple.



seven0seven said:


> I mean export oriented jets like Mig-35/J-10C


I don't think so.

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## Corsair255

*'Pakistan to be playmaker with Turkey’s ship project'*
*Pakistan's acquisition of 4 Turkish corvettes to change balance in region, says Turkish official*

*ISLAMABAD*

*A Turkish official praised Tuesday an agreement between Pakistan and Turkey on the sales of four corvettes to Pakistan as part of Turkey’s National Ship (MILGEM) project.*

*“Pakistan's possession of four MILGEM corvettes will change the balance in the region and will carry the country to the position of a playmaker,” Esad Akgun, director general of Military Factory and Shipyard Management Inc. (ASFAT), a company operating under Turkey’s Defense Ministry, told Anadolu Agency.*

*“It is very important for us to have Pakistan in this position as we do not see the Pakistani army separate from our own army,” Akgun said.*

*Akgun visited Pakistan to attend Pakistan-Turkey Business Investment Forum organized by Turkey's Foreign Economic Relations Board (DEIK).*

*In line with the 2018 agreement, Pakistan will buy four MILGEM corvettes, two of them will be constructed in the Istanbul Shipyard and the others will be built in Pakistan’s port city of Karachi.*

*“In the first phase, one corvette each to be built in Istanbul and Karachi will participate in the Pakistan Navy inventory in 2023,” ASFAT said in its official website.*

*The other two ships will be inscribed in the inventory in 2024, ASFAT added.*

*Underlining the importance of the agreement, Akgun said the agreement cannot be considered as just a ship export, but it is a multi-faceted project that contributes to the world peace.*

*“One of the ASFAT's founding missions is to improve the capabilities of the Turkish Armed Forces, to share them with brotherly countries, and to contribute to world peace by strengthening them,” he stressed.*

*Turkey transfers technical information and technology to Pakistan through this agreement, he added.*

*The company’s goal is to “bring a new breath” to the Turkish defense industry sector, Akgun said, and added: “Defense industry export is not an option but an obligation for Turkey.”*

*Turkey is currently negotiating with brother countries in the Pacific, the Balkans and North Africa for new initiatives, he added.*


*https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/pakistan-to-be-playmaker-with-turkey-s-ship-project/1744923*

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## cabatli_53

I class detail design image

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## Tipu7

cabatli_53 said:


> I class detail design image


Just curious, why no VLS for AShM?

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## Muhammad Omar

cabatli_53 said:


> I class detail design image


Is Pakistan getting this version??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is Pakistan getting this version??


No. They're getting the MILGEM Ada with VLS.

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## Tank131

Tipu7 said:


> Just curious, why no VLS for AShM?


Likely the depth of the tubes is too much. Additionally, VL of AShM will decrease the range of the missile, which is unnecessary when u don't need 360 degree coverage.

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## Armchair

Apparently China overproduced the Type 56 corvette, how much cheaper would those be to supplement these ships? Could be fitted similarly perhaps.

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## LKJ86

Armchair said:


> Apparently China overproduced the Type 56 corvette


Why???

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## Armchair

LKJ86 said:


> Why???
> 
> View attachment 612804



According to a Chinese member on the board...


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## LKJ86

Armchair said:


> According to a Chinese member on the board...


......

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## Crystal-Clear

sharpen your steel you will soon be tested .

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## Neptune

Tipu7 said:


> Just curious, why no VLS for AShM?



Makes no advantage over traditional launching pads. I know US has its new anti-ship missile VLS compatible but they are not likely to fit them into tubes either. Even for certain scenarios, it might come with disadvantages. Either you give up from missile's range or from deck space in the hull. Turkish Naval Forces has an ongoing VLS program under development but they only want it for surface-to-air missiles and cruise missiles.

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## LKJ86

Neptune said:


> Makes no advantage over traditional launching pads. I know US has its new anti-ship missile VLS compatible but they are not likely to fit them into tubes either. Even for certain scenarios, it might come with disadvantages. Either you give up from missile's range or from deck space in the hull. Turkish Naval Forces has an ongoing VLS program under development but they only want it for surface-to-air missiles and cruise missiles.


All of SAMs, AShMs, SGMs, ASROCs, and so on can be put into the same VLS.

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## Neptune

LKJ86 said:


> All of SAMs, AShMs, SGMs, ASROCs, and so on can be put into the same VLS.



And the point is..?

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## LKJ86

Neptune said:


> And the point is..?


The point is that all your concerns are meaningless.

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## Neptune

LKJ86 said:


> The point is that all your concerns are meaningless.



Ahh okay. Meaningless it is then


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## TURUL

will the Jinnah-Class ships radar be the Smart S MK2 or a Chinese one ?


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## Pakistani Fighter

TURUL said:


> will the Jinnah-Class ships radar be the Smart S MK2 or a Chinese one ?





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar,

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## Gryphon

*Pakistan – PN MILGEM Combat Systems Contract *







Issue 97

Within the scope of the Pakistan MILGEM Project (PN MILGEM), which is the biggest export ever achieved by the Turkish defence industry in a single batch and includes the construction of 4 corvettes, the Pakistan MILGEM (PN MILGEM) Combat Systems Contract was signed between ASFAT, Havelsan and Aselsan. During the contract signing ceremony for the procurement and integration of combat systems, National Defence Minister Hulusi AKAR, Havelsan Chairman of the Board Prof. Hacı Ali MANTAR, Havelsan General Manager Ahmet Hamdi ATALAY, Aselsan Chairman of the Board and CEO Haluk GÖRGÜN were present.

ASFAT CEO Esad AKGÜN, the main contractor of the project, said in his speech at the ceremony that the project is important to reveal that Turkish engineers performed the design and production within international standards and even beyond and share these capabilities generously with their Pakistani brothers. Emphasizing that exports are the only solution for the sustainability and dynamism of the defence industry, AKGÜN said exports are not just an option for the defence industry, they are a necessity. Esad AKGÜN pointed out that the Pakistan Corvette Project will be completed with the principle of the lowest cost, highest quality and shortest time period and added that Pakistan will gain new capabilities in design and shipbuilding when the project is completed.

Minister of National Defence Hulusi AKAR expressed his gratitude to all employees who contributed to the project, while Havelsan General Manager Ahmet Hamdi ATALAY placed emphasis on the ADVENT Combat Management System in his speech and said: “We are proud that the next generation Network Enabled Data Integrated Combat Management System (ADVENT), jointly developed by Havelsan and the Turkish Navy and which is owned by only a few countries in the world, will be used on the ships of friendly and our brother country Pakistan”. Underlining that this system developed by nearly 6 million lines of code is being used for the first time on Turkey’s 4th MİLGEM ship, he said they aim to gain ADVENT also to other platforms in the inventory. ATALAY said that they will assume the task of integrating all weapons and sensors in the project as well. Havelsan, the Main Integrator of the project's Combat System, will also supply the ADVENT Combat Management System, Ship Data Distribution System and Ship Information System of the Pakistani Ships.

Aselsan CEO Haluk GÖRGÜN said the Electronic Warfare System, Fire Control Radar, Laser Warning System, Torpedo Countermeasure System, 3D Search Radar, Navigation and LPI Radar, Navigation Support Systems, Inertial Navigation System, Combat Systems, 76 mm Gun Fire Control System and 25 mm Stabilized Gun System will be provided by Aselsan.

Pakistan – PN MILGEM Combat Systems Contract | defenceturkey.com

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> *Pakistan – PN MILGEM Combat Systems Contract *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Issue 97
> 
> Within the scope of the Pakistan MILGEM Project (PN MILGEM), which is the biggest export ever achieved by the Turkish defence industry in a single batch and includes the construction of 4 corvettes, the Pakistan MILGEM (PN MILGEM) Combat Systems Contract was signed between ASFAT, Havelsan and Aselsan. During the contract signing ceremony for the procurement and integration of combat systems, National Defence Minister Hulusi AKAR, Havelsan Chairman of the Board Prof. Hacı Ali MANTAR, Havelsan General Manager Ahmet Hamdi ATALAY, Aselsan Chairman of the Board and CEO Haluk GÖRGÜN were present.
> 
> ASFAT CEO Esad AKGÜN, the main contractor of the project, said in his speech at the ceremony that the project is important to reveal that Turkish engineers performed the design and production within international standards and even beyond and share these capabilities generously with their Pakistani brothers. Emphasizing that exports are the only solution for the sustainability and dynamism of the defence industry, AKGÜN said exports are not just an option for the defence industry, they are a necessity. Esad AKGÜN pointed out that the Pakistan Corvette Project will be completed with the principle of the lowest cost, highest quality and shortest time period and added that Pakistan will gain new capabilities in design and shipbuilding when the project is completed.
> 
> Minister of National Defence Hulusi AKAR expressed his gratitude to all employees who contributed to the project, while Havelsan General Manager Ahmet Hamdi ATALAY placed emphasis on the ADVENT Combat Management System in his speech and said: “We are proud that the next generation Network Enabled Data Integrated Combat Management System (ADVENT), jointly developed by Havelsan and the Turkish Navy and which is owned by only a few countries in the world, will be used on the ships of friendly and our brother country Pakistan”. Underlining that this system developed by nearly 6 million lines of code is being used for the first time on Turkey’s 4th MİLGEM ship, he said they aim to gain ADVENT also to other platforms in the inventory. ATALAY said that they will assume the task of integrating all weapons and sensors in the project as well. Havelsan, the Main Integrator of the project's Combat System, will also supply the ADVENT Combat Management System, Ship Data Distribution System and Ship Information System of the Pakistani Ships.
> 
> Aselsan CEO Haluk GÖRGÜN said the Electronic Warfare System, Fire Control Radar, Laser Warning System, Torpedo Countermeasure System, 3D Search Radar, Navigation and LPI Radar, Navigation Support Systems, Inertial Navigation System, Combat Systems, 76 mm Gun Fire Control System and 25 mm Stabilized Gun System will be provided by Aselsan.
> 
> Pakistan – PN MILGEM Combat Systems Contract | defenceturkey.com


Any news about its Air Defence Missiles and Anti Submarine systems?


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## Sulman Badshah

IMP Points from Article

> he first ship will be completed in the T0+54th month in Turkey, the second ship in the 60th month in Pakistan, the third ship in the 66th month in Turkey, and the last ship in the 72th month in Pakistan. There will be a 6-year time difference between the construction of the first ship and the delivery of the fourth ship

> will be equipped with a Vertical Launching System (VLS). However, he did not share any information about the number of ships to be equipped with the VLS.

> there would be some differences in the design of the fourth Jinnah Class Frigate. the fourth vessel would be designed jointly, and it will also be the first frigate designed by Pakistan with its own means.

> Due to VLS integration, the Jinnah Class will be longer and heavier than the ADA Class.

> C802 / Harpoon/ Atmaca / Harbah will be deployed

> can launch LY-80/HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defence Missiles.

> Havelsan ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan ARES-2N ESM (ships are also expected to use AREAS-2NC ECM System), HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System, SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar, YALTES product EPKİS Integrated Platform Management System, and the Meteksan Defence product the YAKAMOS Hull-Mounted Sonar System.

> The Jinnah Class Frigates will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSoft for the Pakistan Navy and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green.”

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824

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## ali_raza

totally supplementery purchase 
nothing much in it after yarmouk induction seems like navy had to please someone

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## SBUS-CXK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> The Search Radar is from Thales and Aselsan and the weapons LY 80 and C 802 are Chineese. Have Chineese allowed the integeration of their weapons with Turkish Radar?
> Moreover, there is a size difference between Harbah and C 802 means there will alterations when Harbah will be fitted. Does'nt it shows that harbah is not operational as of now otherwise there is no need of first fitting it with C 802 and then Harbah
> 
> 
> Dont u think we need 4 destroyers now with each accompanying 1 PN Battalion. We need long range Air defence systems like that of HQ 9 which PLAN have on its destroyers. The long range air defence offer better protection against likes of Supersonic AshM like Brahmos


don't worry. "Export-oriented arms" don't need to consider these problem. Turkey warships free to use Chinese missiles.

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## Tipu7

ali_raza said:


> totally supplementery purchase
> nothing much in it after yarmouk induction seems like navy had to please someone


Hold on a minute. These two are entirely different cetagory of ships meant to play entirely different roles. One is a corvette, other is frigate. 

Y-class is meant to deploy in North Arabia Sea while J-class work exists in South Arabian Sea.

In over simple comparison: 1 J-class, in terms of multidimensional combat capability, is equivalent to 3 Y-class vessels (if each Y-class is modeled specifically for surface, subsurface and air defense missions).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Hold on a minute. These two are entirely different cetagory of ships meant to play entirely different roles. One is a corvette, other is frigate.
> 
> Y-class is meant to deploy in North Arabia Sea while J-class work exists in South Arabian Sea.
> 
> In over simple comparison: 1 J-class, in terms of multidimensional combat capability, is equivalent to 3 Y-class vessels (if each Y-class is modeled specifically for surface, subsurface and air defense missions).


Agreed. Moreover, because the J-Class is coming with IP transfer (with the 4th ship being designed in Pakistan), this ship will also be the basis of next-generation PN frigates. But those contracts will go to NRDI, KSEW, Gwadar, etc. 

That said, there have been reports of the PN working with other vendors on corvettes and large patrol vessels (the latter with Swiftships). So, it'll be interesting to see if they buyout design rights for a smaller, low-cost ship too.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Moreover, because the J-Class is coming with IP transfer (with the 4th ship being designed in Pakistan), this ship will also be the basis of next-generation PN frigates. But those contracts will go to NRDI, KSEW, Gwadar, etc.


And this explains why J-class is uniquely important for PN despite purchasing Type-54AP frigates.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, there have been reports of the PN working with other vendors on corvettes and large patrol vessels (the latter with Swiftships). So, it'll be interesting to see if they buyout design rights for a smaller, low-cost ship too


Not aware of other vendors, but PN is acquiring Y-class (as far as I know) in different configurations. PNS Yarmook is more focussed towards Anti-Ship role while PNS Tabook will be configured differently (probably will house Torpedo tubes in place of ASM and SHORADS in place of CIWS).

And let's not forget, option for two more vessels is there too.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> And this explains why J-class is uniquely important for PN despite purchasing Type-54AP frigates.
> 
> Not aware of other vendors, but PN is acquiring Y-class (as far as I know) in different configurations. PNS Yarmook is more focussed towards Anti-Ship role while PNS Tabook will be configured differently (probably will house Torpedo tubes in place of ASM and SHORADS in place of CIWS).
> 
> And let's not forget, option for two more vessels is there too.


Yep, there's the option for 2 additional corvettes, but Swiftships is also working on a FPC/LPC in Pakistan.

_Mr Shah confirmed the company was also in Pakistan to build a 45m steel FPV at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works as part of a joint venture._

https://swiftships.com/swiftly-redefining-tomorrows-navies-today/​The Y-Class is a commercial spec ship (steel hull, aluminium superstructure) at heart, it doesn't cost more than $50-60 m per ship (minus sensors and weapons). It's a cost-effective way to police the EEZ, but can also be the basis for low-cost littoral defence corvettes (i.e., armed with ASW, AShW, and AAW). 

Basically, imagine taking the ship design expertise from the J-Class, and then designing a low-cost multi-mission corvette -- i.e., built like a OPV, but armed like a frigate (AShM, LWTs, MR-SAMs).

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Swiftships is also working on a FPC/LPC in Pakistan.
> 
> _Mr Shah confirmed the company was also in Pakistan to build a 45m steel FPV at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works as part of a joint venture._



,

I thought Swiftship and Daman shipyard were in competition for same order of PN. It's good thing if Swiftclass are in equation, separately.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> ,
> 
> I thought Swiftship and Daman shipyard were in competition for same order of PN. It's good thing if Swiftclass are in equation.


They were, but Swiftships wants to work with the PN in other ways, besides ships. If things go according to plan, I think we could see an original Pakistani corvette with localized steel hull and aluminium superstructure supply. And Project Azm's industry inputs take off, then we may be able to factor in composite production too.

_*Karachi Shipyard Engineering Works Ltd has joined hands with USA based ships manufacturer M/s Swiftship for co-production of steel, Aluminium and fibre hull boards for Pakistan Navy, fisheries and commercial sector.* The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed between rear admiral Athar Saleem and Shehraze Shah on the third day of International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)-2018.

Talking to Business Recorder, Commodore Jahanzeb Ahsan SI (M), project director, Karachi Shipyard Engineering Works Ltd said that this MoU was for collaboration regarding co-production of steel, Aluminium and fibre hull boards for Pakistan Navy, fisheries and commercial sector. He said that Karachi Shipyard would work as regional manufacturing hub for USA based ship building company and do co-production of steel, Aluminium and fibre hull boards for Pakistan Navy, fisheries and commercial sector in Karachi._

https://fp.brecorder.com/2018/11/20181130427471/​@Tipu7, seriously think about it, we're sitting on an amazing competitive edge, we just don't realize it nor are we leveraging it. Basically, _because _we've been sanctioned, and _because _we are low on fiscal flexibility, our forces must think outside of the box, and create solutions that deliver national security interests at an unrealistically low cost, except we made it a reality.

Combine the J-Class' design expertise with localized hull and superstructure manufacturing, original/domestic subsystem design (with mixed foreign and local inputs), and local weapons development (again with mixed foreign and COTS inputs), you can get a multirole corvette.

Now combine that with JF-17, MALE UAV, LRMPA, a PAC turboprop that can double as a special mission aircraft (AEW&C, MPA, ISTAR, etc), a mini-SSK/SWAT, etc. It's a turnkey defence package. We'll just need a helicopter program (utility, special mission and attack), and we're all good to go.

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## ali_raza

Tipu7 said:


> Hold on a minute. These two are entirely different cetagory of ships meant to play entirely different roles. One is a corvette, other is frigate.
> 
> Y-class is meant to deploy in North Arabia Sea while J-class work exists in South Arabian Sea.
> 
> In over simple comparison: 1 J-class, in terms of multidimensional combat capability, is equivalent to 3 Y-class vessels (if each Y-class is modeled specifically for surface, subsurface and air defense missions).


dont hold on my account buddy 
i m not talking about jinnah class which we will see in 2028
m talking about milgem which is a corvette with a price of frigate


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## Tipu7

ali_raza said:


> dont hold on my account buddy
> i m not talking about jinnah class which we will see in 2028
> m talking about milgem which is a corvette with a price of frigate


The three Pakistan Navy Milgems are J-class frigates. Fourth Ship will be even different. We are not buying the Milgem corvettes in configuration which are operational in Turkish Navy.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Tipu7, seriously think about it, we're sitting on an amazing competitive edge, we just don't realize it nor are we leveraging it. Basically, _because _we've been sanctioned, and _because _we are low on fiscal flexibility, our forces must think outside of the box, and create solutions that deliver national security interests at an unrealistically low cost, except we made it a reality.
> 
> Combine the J-Class' design expertise with localized hull and superstructure manufacturing, original/domestic subsystem design (with mixed foreign and local inputs), and local weapons development (again with mixed foreign and COTS inputs), you can get a multirole corvette.
> 
> Now combine that with JF-17, MALE UAV, LRMPA, a PAC turboprop that can double as a special mission aircraft (AEW&C, MPA, ISTAR, etc), a mini-SSK/SWAT, etc. It's a turnkey defence package. We'll just need a helicopter program (utility, special mission and attack), and we're all good to go.


Yeah Air Force and Navy are slowly moving towards enhanced indigenization and development of domestically tailored weapon systems and support equipment, but our industrial and economic capability is very limited. We have barely managed to keep Jf17 project on track and are still struggling to evolve it into a project of our expectations. All because the economic support is limited. As long as the economic support is limited, all our initiatives of local defense production will end up in jeopardy.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> The three Pakistan Navy Milgems are J-class frigates. Fourth Ship will be even different. We are not buying the Milgem corvettes in configuration which are operational in Turkish Navy.
> 
> 
> Yeah Air Force and Navy are slowly moving towards enhanced indigenization and development of domestically tailored weapon systems and support equipment, but our industrial and economic capability is very limited. We have barely managed to keep Jf17 project on track and are still struggling to evolve it into a project of our expectations. All because the economic support is limited. As long as the economic support is limited, all our initiatives of local defense production will end up in jeopardy.


The economic support can come from industrial capability, but it needs investment to work. That's basically the biggest reason why I recommend attaching offsets to our contracts moving forward, so that we get some money into these industries. If not, then hold-off on imports entirely, and divert that money to dual-use inputs.

This is a risky strategy because India is moving ahead, but I think of it this way:

Would you rather keep taking one step at a time and remain 2 steps behind India? Or would you take 2 steps back, and try leapfrogging 4-6+ steps and catch up to India? If we invest $500 m in developing ship grade steel at home, we'd save $1-2 bn in ForEx for future ships, and possibly export $1-2 bn in said steel.

It's a $2-4 bn gain, and we'd be able to put it towards more advanced systems (by investing in R&D, high-tech sectors, etc, i.e., help both the economy, generate ForEx and domestic revenue, and make it easier to buy arms locally).

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The economic support can come from industrial capability, but it needs investment to work. That's basically the biggest reason why I recommend attaching offsets to our contracts moving forward, so that we get some money into these industries. If not, then hold-off on imports entirely, and divert that money to dual-use inputs.
> 
> This is a risky strategy because India is moving ahead, but I think of it this way:
> 
> Would you rather keep taking one step at a time and remain 2 steps behind India? Or would you take 2 steps back, and try leapfrogging 4-6+ steps and catch up to India? If we invest $500 m in developing ship grade steel at home, we'd save $1-2 bn in ForEx for future ships, and possibly export $1-2 bn in said steel. It's a $2-4 bn gain, and we'd be able to put it towards more advanced systems.



Pakistan, Turkey may be following in the footsteps of. Turkey produces its own steel, send out a Millux in Finland, was buying after a certain proccesor and was dependent. After Turkey's Army Pension Fund (OYAK), bought Miilux Company and set up factories in Turkey with technology transfer. Those, foreign dependency in this area is over. But as I said before, money and dedication is required for this. There are similar companies in Ukraine or other Eastern European countries, I think Pakistan should take a look

https://www.miilux.fi/en/miilux-partnering-with-oyak-steel-hardening-capacity-to-be-doubled/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Pakistan, Turkey may be following in the footsteps of. Turkey produces its own steel, send out a Millux in Finland, was buying after a certain proccesor and was dependent. After Turkey's Army Pension Fund (OYAK), bought Millux Company and set up factories in Turkey with technology transfer. Those, foreign dependency in this area is over. But as I said before, money and dedication is required for this. There are similar companies in Ukraine or other Eastern European countries, I think Pakistan should take a look
> 
> https://www.miilux.fi/en/miilux-partnering-with-oyak-steel-hardening-capacity-to-be-doubled/


You're right.


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## ÇölKaplanı

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Pakistan, Turkey may be following in the footsteps of. Turkey produces its own steel, send out a Millux in Finland, was buying after a certain proccesor and was dependent. After Turkey's Army Pension Fund (OYAK), bought Miilux Company and set up factories in Turkey with technology transfer. Those, foreign dependency in this area is over. But as I said before, money and dedication is required for this. There are similar companies in Ukraine or other Eastern European countries, I think Pakistan should take a look
> 
> https://www.miilux.fi/en/miilux-partnering-with-oyak-steel-hardening-capacity-to-be-doubled/


I swear to God this was the smartest move we ever did for all this time. We should keep doing these kind of moves when the time is right.

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## TURUL

ÇölKaplanı said:


> I swear to God this was the smartest move we ever did for all this time. We should keep doing these kind of moves when the time is right.


wasn't Oyak trying to buy British steel too ?


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## ÇölKaplanı

TURUL said:


> wasn't Oyak trying to buy British steel too ?


I never heard about it.


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## ziya



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## CHI RULES

ali_raza said:


> dont hold on my account buddy
> i m not talking about jinnah class which we will see in 2028
> m talking about milgem which is a corvette with a price of frigate



Sir capabilities wise and as per designation reported on net is frigate for Turkish ships being manufactured for PN. As per cost the capabilities of the coming ships are far better than any existing platforms of PN both in case of offensive and defensive capabilities. Other factor which shall be much important in future is enhanced stealth structure which shall ensure that enemy shall be unable to target them from longer ranges. 
So far as per budget the most capable SAM available to PN is HQ16 and if it's latest version is acquired the range shall be up to 70 KM+ with enhanced capabilities to counter Brahmos like CMs along with other superior defensive gadgets. In future if Chinese are able to develop HQ9 lighter version we may be able to arm them with LRSAMs as well as Turkish options shall also be there in Medium term.

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## ziya

In terms of defence for anti ship missiles more than 50-60 km is not needed because of the curvature of the earth,instead aktif seeker of missile is more important which do not need radar illumunation of for all the way to hit target so you can engage more anti ship missiles simultaneously thats whar evolved sea sparrow block 2 have tihis capabilty,if its not you have vulnurable to multiple subsonic missiles as well,milgem was tested against on coast of south africa against 3 subsonic drones smultaneously and hit all of them that was the first case in turkish navys history,your ships will have aselsan areas system electronic attack capabilty for jamming of incoming missiles so pak ships gains tree layer defence HQ16 long range gökdeniz short range electronic attack-jamming the last one there is no fourth layer in any ship on the world

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## aziqbal

Ok so what’s the latest ? 

steel cut of keel laid ?


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## T-123456

TURUL said:


> wasn't Oyak trying to buy British steel too ?


Yes,lost to China's Jingye.

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## SBUS-CXK

T-123456 said:


> Yes,lost to China's China's Jingye.


thank you very much. the first time I know jingye. and this company is in our Hebei province.


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## cabatli_53

MiiluxOY is producing not only high grade civilian steel but also steel armour protection solutions for mostly land vehicles (Kirpi-2, Cobra-2, Vuran, IFV). A new steel armour facility is being constructed in Manisa. Before Oyak purchased Miilux, Erdemir, the biggest steel manufacturing facility of Oyak group, was providing warship hull steel (DH-36 steel) solutions for Milgem. They are working on HY-80/100 ferromagnetic steel alloy solutions for national submarine program Milden. U-214TN constructed of German HY-80 steels.



TURUL said:


> wasn't Oyak trying to buy British steel too ?



OYAK was choosed by British government. When they started negotiations, OYAK realised that they will lose more than planned in order to re-activate a giant facility so they left the negotiations.

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## Pakistani Fighter

CHI RULES said:


> HQ16


Confirmed for Turkish Ships?



ziya said:


> In terms of defence for anti ship missiles more than 50-60 km is not needed because of the curvature of the earth,instead aktif seeker of missile is more important which do not need radar illumunation of for all the way to hit target so you can engage more anti ship missiles simultaneously thats whar evolved sea sparrow block 2 have tihis capabilty,if its not you have vulnurable to multiple subsonic missiles as well,milgem was tested against on coast of south africa against 3 subsonic drones smultaneously and hit all of them that was the first case in turkish navys history,your ships will have aselsan areas system electronic attack capabilty for jamming of incoming missiles so pak ships gains tree layer defence HQ16 long range gökdeniz short range electronic attack-jamming the last one there is no fourth layer in any ship on the world


What about for Supersonic Brahmos?


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Confirmed for Turkish Ships?


Yes its confirmed that Turkish ship will have HQ-16 by various senior and professional members here on PDF


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about for Supersonic Brahmos?


HQ-16/LY-80 has capability to intercept supersonic targets like Brahmos

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## ziya

supersonic missiles can not fly as low as subsonics,they also not stealth,can not maneuveur so at the end almost equevalant to new age high subsonic missiles,the most challenge for the warships is several incoming missiles from multiple directions.Turkish atmaca anti ship missile has capable of low sea skimming,target identification,2D maneuveurable,and have a data link connection and on future she will gain dual seeker-j band plus IIR,amd I hope target timing of multiple missiles.

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## Pax Ottomana

ziya said:


> supersonic missiles can not fly as low as subsonics,they also not stealth,can not maneuveur so at the end almost equevalant to new age high subsonic missiles,the most challenge for the warships is several incoming missiles from multiple directions.Turkish atmaca anti ship missile has capable of low sea skimming,target identification,2D maneuveurable,and have a data link connection and on future she will gain dual seeker-j band plus IIR,amd I hope target timing of multiple missiles.


And top attack capability.

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## Path-Finder

*Jinnah-Class Frigate: Pakistan Navy’s JF-17*
A mega defense deal was signed between Turkey & Pakistan. In which Pak was to acquire navy ships from Turkey. But it is not acquiring Turkish Ada class corvettes, instead it is acquiring its heavily modified version called Jinnah class corvette - which we may call JF-17 of Pak Navy.

https://www.globalvillagespace.com/jinnah-class-frigate-pakistan-navys-jf-17/


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## aziqbal

With MILGEM the electronic support measure suites will allow better operability with the Agosta 90B since both are similar ESM suites 

and we know how well Pakistan used radar emissions in operation swift retort 

so using ESM to collect enemy radar emissions and then using our own electronic attack assets to counteract is very goods news 

glad Pakistan is focussing on this spectrum of operations than just planting big missiles on their boats like the Russians 

lastly for VLS 4 x Type 054AP (32) + 4 x MILGEM (16) = 192 missiles within 3-5 years 

a very modest and great capability within a short period of time 

Pakistan navy is seeing its decade come true

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## polanski

Turkish STM Lays Keel Of Pakistan Navy’s First MILGEM-Class Corvette: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...f-pakistan-navys-first-milgem-class-corvette/


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## SoftKill

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270313943689502722


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## khanasifm

Do not see chines version of hq-16 guidance radar poor image only thing visible is radar type and Vls


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 640207
> Do not see chines version of hq-16 guidance radar poor image only thing visible is radar type and Vls
> 
> View attachment 640207


Clear pic. I think the PN selected LY-80N -- probable illumination radar on top of bridge.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Clear pic. I think the PN selected LY-80N -- probable illumination radar on top of bridge.




054a/p hq-16 Sam guidance radar

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## cabatli_53

Anti-ship missiles seems Harbah ? PN Milgem looks impressive.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Anti-ship missiles seems Harbah ? PN Milgem looks impressive.


Harbah or the Supersonic-Cruising AShM. Or both?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Harbah or the Supersonic-Cruising AShM. Or both?


No C802?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> No C802?


C-802 is a 2x4 launcher. We clearly see 2x3.

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## Syntage

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Harbah or the Supersonic-Cruising AShM. Or both?



Do we have one?


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## HRK

Syntage said:


> Do we have one?


under development

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## Ark_Angel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Clear pic. I think the PN selected LY-80N -- probable illumination radar on top of bridge.


SAM still under finalisation stage.

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## Bratva

Ark_Angel said:


> SAM still under finalisation stage.



any update on Supersonic Anti-Ship missile under development? Is it still on track?

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## Ark_Angel

Bratva said:


> any update on Supersonic Anti-Ship missile under development? Is it still on track?


On track, on time, exceeding requirements

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## Armchair

Ark_Angel said:


> On track, on time, exceeding requirements



Any info on the indigenous SAM program? Would really lower costs. 

Also, rumour has it PN is going for AW-101 helicopters... any truth to this? What are the items Pakistan buying for 900 million from the Italians? Sorry for the many questions.

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## cabatli_53

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) Could you reach any info about VLS ? What is the origin of it ? It doesn’t seem a system that has been used by any Navy at present. I have searched Chinese VLS models but They don’t have much similarity with the one to be integrated for Pakistani Milgem. Having any idea ?

That is Chinese VLS hosting HQ-16 missiles for example.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I don't know, but if we look really closely, the silos might look circular.






Denel Dynamics uses circular silos in their VLS. But I wouldn't say this is a concrete sign or anything, it can just be difference in perspective/in how each of our eyes see things.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know, but if we look really closely, the silos might look circular.
> 
> View attachment 641135
> 
> 
> Denel Dynamics uses circular silos in their VLS. But I wouldn't say this is a concrete sign or anything, it can just be difference in perspective/in how each of our eyes see things.


Looks square to me

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## SBUS-CXK

cabatli_53 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Could you reach any info about VLS ? What is the origin of it ? It doesn’t seem a system that has been used by any Navy at present. I have searched Chinese VLS models but They don’t have much similarity with the one to be integrated for Pakistani Milgem. Having any idea ?
> 
> That is Chinese VLS hosting HQ-16 missiles for example.
> 
> View attachment 641100


Big brother. This is a reference for you.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know, but if we look really closely, the silos might look circular.
> 
> View attachment 641135
> 
> 
> Denel Dynamics uses circular silos in their VLS. But I wouldn't say this is a concrete sign or anything, it can just be difference in perspective/in how each of our eyes see things.




Here is Algerian A200 ships mock-up. It has also roundy launchers equipped with Umkhonto missiles. From this angel, Both launchers seems quite similar.













SBUS-CXK said:


> Big brother. This is a reference for you.
> 
> View attachment 641169
> 
> View attachment 641170




Impressive image. Great capability indeed. Thanks for sharing.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Looks square to me


Check if you can see the shadow of each canister/silo.



cabatli_53 said:


> Here is Algerian A200 ships mock-up. It has also roundy launchers equipped with Umkhonto missiles. From this angel, Both launchers seems quite similar.
> 
> View attachment 641174
> 
> 
> View attachment 641175


Yep that was my thought as well. Assuming the silos are indeed circular (which might be the case given the shadow).

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## Aamir Hussain

Gents this is a model and seems to me, not to scale. So I would not surmise on the dimensions or the actual finished build.

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## Akh1112

cabatli_53 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Could you reach any info about VLS ? What is the origin of it ? It doesn’t seem a system that has been used by any Navy at present. I have searched Chinese VLS models but They don’t have much similarity with the one to be integrated for Pakistani Milgem. Having any idea ?
> 
> That is Chinese VLS hosting HQ-16 missiles for example.
> 
> View attachment 641100




Me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) had discussed this. I personally am of the belief its the CAMM/Seaceptor if the graphic is accurate. 

"Im fairly certain itll either be the CAMM or the HQ-16, this is based off of two probabilities:

1. the designer of the graphic got lazy and didnt add a common uptake and we did select the HQ-16, which would be reasonable because we already are operating HHQ-16's.

2. The design is accurate, however, there are no VLS systems outside of like Russia that dont make use of a common uptake, there is a possibility of a CCL VLS but we dont know. However, the CAMM would fit the bill as it uses a cold launch system and also has a square VLS tube shape, the MBDA graphic i posted aligns with the graphic of the Jinnah class"

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> Gents this is a model and seems to me, not to scale. So I would not surmise on the dimensions or the actual finished build.





Akh1112 said:


> Me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) had discussed this. I personally am of the belief its the CAMM/Seaceptor if the graphic is accurate.
> 
> "Im fairly certain itll either be the CAMM or the HQ-16, this is based off of two probabilities:
> 
> 1. the designer of the graphic got lazy and didnt add a common uptake and we did select the HQ-16, which would be reasonable because we already are operating HHQ-16's.
> 
> 2. The design is accurate, however, there are no VLS systems outside of like Russia that dont make use of a common uptake, there is a possibility of a CCL VLS but we dont know. However, the CAMM would fit the bill as it uses a cold launch system and also has a square VLS tube shape, the MBDA graphic i posted aligns with the graphic of the Jinnah class"


...all said and typed, it's worth noting that, in theory, a ship of this size can carry the Aster 30.

I know it's a stretch, a real stretch, but Qatar's corvettes from Fincantieri (which is very similar to the PN MILGEM in dimensions) will carry 16 Aster 30 Block 1NT. Yes, it's expensive, but the cost is confined to 4 ships (at this time) -- so it isn't prohibitive in absolute terms. Moreover, it can change things in the region a bit if the PN ships carry SAMs with 100+ km range.

IMO this is one of those situations where it depends on (1) the supplying gov't's approval and (2) availability of financing/installments. But it'd be a real stretch, but the PN MILGEM has also been one of those cases where our dreams kept coming true (e.g., VLS).

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 100+ km range.


Wow


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...all said and typed, it's worth noting that, in theory, a ship of this size can carry the Aster 30.
> 
> I know it's a stretch, a real stretch, but Qatar's corvettes from Fincantieri (which is very similar to the PN MILGEM in dimensions) will carry 16 Aster 30 Block 1NT. Yes, it's expensive, but the cost is confined to 4 ships (at this time) -- so it isn't prohibitive in absolute terms. Moreover, it can change things in the region a bit if the PN ships carry SAMs with 100+ km range.
> 
> IMO this is one of those situations where it depends on (1) the supplying gov't's approval and (2) availability of financing/installments. But it'd be a real stretch, but the PN MILGEM has also been one of those cases where our dreams kept coming true (e.g., VLS).


If CAMM is a possibility then CAMM-ER is alsona possibility and i think would be far more likely than CAMM or Aster given its what Italy is planning on using and there is said to be a big defense deal with Italy. It is only slightly longer than CAMM and is equally diameter. While its rated at 45km+,we know CAMM is rated for 25km+ and Janes has reported it was tested to ranges of 60km so i think CAMM-ER could range out to 80-100km as well. With that said, thisnis just a graphic and i dont think we can draw any conclusions beyond the confirmation of a VLS. It will most likely be HQ-16 BUT only time will tell.

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## Yasser76

CAMM-ER would be amazing. I am now starting to get an idea of the PN logic, maybe battle groups of a couple MILGEM to provide an air defence bubble with western missiles/radar for a couple of Type 054 Frigates which can launch long range land attack missiles at stand off ranges using Pakistani/Chinese systems



Yasser76 said:


> CAMM-ER would be amazing. I am now starting to get an idea of the PN logic, maybe battle groups of a couple MILGEM to provide an air defence bubble with western missiles/radar for a couple of Type 054 Frigates/AZMATS which can launch long range land attack missiles at stand off ranges using Pakistani/Chinese systems



These could be an offensive asset and strike from unexpected areas whilst F-22P, Yarmook could be used nearer our coast for defence.

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## Ark_Angel

Armchair said:


> Any info on the indigenous SAM program? Would really lower costs.
> It's under Dev and progressing pretty decently.
> Also, rumour has it PN is going for AW-101 helicopters... any truth to this? What are the items Pakistan buying for 900 million from the Italians? Sorry for the many questions.


PN is looking at multiple options from East and West. There is truth to it but it's a time consuming process. It will wait for while to come to frutition.
As far as Italians go multiple stuff

*Pakistan has recently won a major tender for 24 UCAVs from a Major Middle Eastern Country. That is a testimony to how far our Defence industry has progressed.*

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## Armchair

Ark_Angel said:


> PN is looking at multiple options from East and West. There is truth to it but it's a time consuming process. It will wait for while to come to frutition.
> As far as Italians go multiple stuff
> 
> *Pakistan has recently won a major tender for 24 UCAVs from a Major Middle Eastern Country. That is a testimony to how far our Defence industry has progressed.*



Thank you so much for the reply and most interesting information!


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## SoftKill

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274027987470598151

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## dBSPL

SoftKill said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274027987470598151




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273992929548349444
_'As part of the PN MİLGEM Project carried out by ASFAT: Contract was signed between ASFAT and STM on 16 June 2020, in order to supply the Main Propulsion Systems of 4 Corvettes warships to be build for Pakistan.'_

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## Tipu7

Turkey’s STM Defense Technologies Engineering and Trade Inc. has signed an agreement with the state-owned Military Factory and Shipyard Management Corporation (ASFAT) on the supply and integration of the main drive system that is to be used in corvettes that are produced by Turkey for the Pakistan Navy.

The four Ada-class corvettes are being developed within the scope of Turkey’s MILGEM (National Ship) project and will be delivered to Pakistan as part of Ankara's largest-ever single defense export deal.

The main propulsion systems, which constitute the most important platform systems of the ships, power the movement of the vessels.

In May 2017, Turkish and Pakistani defense companies signed a goodwill agreement outlining the construction of four Turkish Ada-class MILGEM corvettes at the Karachi Shipyard. According to the final agreement, two ships will be built in Istanbul and two others in Karachi thanks to a technology transfer.

*Two of the corvettes will join the inventory of the Pakistan Navy in 2023 and the remaining two will join in 2024*.

In July 2018, the Pakistan Navy signed a contract for the acquisition of four MILGEM-class ships with Turkey's state-owned defense firm ASFAT. MILGEM vessels are 99 meters long, have a displacement capacity of 24,00 tons and can reach a speed of 29 nautical miles.

STM is directly involved in several military maritime projects to meet Pakistan's needs. The company delivered the Pakistan Marine Supply Ship (PNS MOAWIN) in October 2018 as part of a deal it signed in January 2013. STM also continues to operate in the country in the ongoing Agosta 90 B submarine modernization project signed in June 2016.

The firm is taking firm steps toward becoming a global brand in Turkey's military maritime area with projects undertaken in the international arena.

STM also took critical roles in the development of Turkish navy corvettes within the scope of the MILGEM Project. With its engineering experience, the company made significant contributions to the nationalization of the defense industry.

https://www.dailysabah.com/business...for-turkish-built-pakistan-navy-corvettes/amp

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## In arduis fidelis

Are the 4x Ada class ordered by PN going to designated as Jinnah class or those are separate ships? If so how many Jinnah class are we acquiring?


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## dBSPL

In arduis fidelis said:


> Are the 4x Ada class ordered by PN going to designated as Jinnah class or those are separate ships? If so how many Jinnah class are we acquiring?


Pakistan will not buy any ADA class corvettes. PN will be the user of a new class called Jinnah with over Turkey's MILGEM(national ship) Program's design and system engineering packages.

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## In arduis fidelis

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan will not buy any ADA class corvettes. PN will be the user of a new class called Jinnah with over Turkey's MILGEM(national ship) Program's design and system engineering packages.


Thats what i thought. Wikipedia had me confused because they have listed them separately i.e. 4x ada class corvettes and 4+2x Jinnah Class frigates.


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## T-123456

Ark_Angel said:


> Pakistan has recently won a major tender for 24 UCAVs from a Major Middle Eastern Country. That is a testimony to how far our Defence industry has progressed.


Pakistan produces UCAV's?


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## dBSPL

In arduis fidelis said:


> Thats what i thought. Wikipedia had me confused because they have listed them separately i.e. 4x ada class corvettes and 4+2x Jinnah Class frigates.


There are currently 4 exact orders. 2 ships will start naval service in 2023 and the other 2 ships in 2024. After from that it is about the planning of the PN Navy and the Pakistan Ministry of Defense.

However, if you ask for my estimate, it is not the construction of 4 ships that makes this deal worthwhile. With this agreement, Pakistan significantly transfers the accumulation of a warship program that has been going on for nearly 20 years, to its national industry. In other words, Pakistan will have the ability to build unique type of ships according to its need with Milgem infrastructure in the next step.

In my opinion, the main consideration in naval modernization plans is the ability progressions. Quantitative approaches are secondary issues.

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## Ark_Angel

T-123456 said:


> Pakistan produces UCAV's?


Damn right they do. And you will see their performance in a low intensity conflict very soon.

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## Bilal.

Ark_Angel said:


> Damn right they do. And you will see their performance in a low intensity conflict very soon.


Hope it’s something other than burraq/ch-3.


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## Ark_Angel

Bilal. said:


> Hope it’s something other than burraq/ch-3.


Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ark_Angel said:


> Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.


@JamD I think ... it looks like the PAF's trying to change things for the better...

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## JamD

Ark_Angel said:


> Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.


I'm usually a serious person but you've said such a thing that "aik pappi idhar, aik pappi udhar" 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @JamD I think ... it looks like the PAF's trying to change things for the better...


Might not be PAF.

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## T-123456

Ark_Angel said:


> Damn right they do. And you will see their performance in a low intensity conflict very soon.


I'll wait and see then.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Sincerely hope that's true.


Ark_Angel said:


> Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.


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## Bratva

Ark_Angel said:


> Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.



Is it linked with Beidou Satellites?


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## Ark_Angel

Bratva said:


> Is it linked with Beidou Satellites?


It can be but not yet.


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## Bratva

Ark_Angel said:


> It can be but not yet.



Zaid Hamid leaked the Pakistani drone attack video on his twitter last year. Takeaway from that video was, Pakistan drone operators observing movement through GCS consoles and dropping a payload on terrorists. The missile was of low yield and it only killed 1 and 2 terrorists ran away and then Pakistani drone operator enthusiastically asking to send another drone to finish the job

So analysis of the video showed existing drones has 1 or 2 missile capacity only. The missile is of low yield low weight, cant be used for one shot one kill scenarios like Hell fire missile. Also that drone was being operated through Line of Sight. And Pakistan has to send multiple drones to kill few terrorists due to very low payload capacity.

If the new drone that you are talking about is gonna be operated through LoS, then I assume using it in Balochistan and Fata hilly terrain would cause an issue due Line of Sight. And Linking it up with Beidou should be utmost priority if the strikes has to be carried across Afghanistan or you want the Drone to loiter and reconnoiter over an area for 10-12 hours at a stretch

Take an example of turkish drone performance in Libya recently and how it helped G NA against Haftar forces. It is LoS but drones were used in Urban warfare where LoS is not an issue.

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## JamD

Bratva said:


> Zaid Hamid leaked the Pakistani drone attack video on his twitter last year. Takeaway from that video was, Pakistan drone operators observing movement through GCS consoles and dropping a payload on terrorists. The missile was of low yield and it only killed 1 and 2 terrorists ran away and then Pakistani drone operator enthusiastically asking to send another drone to finish the job
> 
> So analysis of the video showed existing drones has 1 or 2 missile capacity only. The missile is of low yield low weight, cant be used for one shot one kill scenarios like Hell fire missile. Also that drone was being operated through Line of Sight. And Pakistan has to send multiple drones to kill few terrorists due to very low payload capacity.
> 
> If the new drone that you are talking about is gonna be operated through LoS, then I assume using it in Balochistan and Fata hilly terrain would cause an issue due Line of Sight. And Linking it up with Beidou should be utmost priority if the strikes has to be carried across Afghanistan or you want the Drone to loiter and reconnoiter over an area for 10-12 hours at a stretch
> 
> Take an example of turkish drone performance in Libya recently and how it helped G NA against Haftar forces. It is LoS but drones were used in Urban warfare where LoS is not an issue.


The need for satcom is not lost on the people developing these systems. This I can say for sure based on personal interactions. Also, I don't think Beidou are used for communication, just positioning. I suspect the development of PAKSAT-MM1 is basically to enable satcom for Pakistani UAVs. 

Note: There is a PAKSAT-MM1 already in orbit but that's not the one I am talking about. This old PAKSAT-MM1 was AsiaSat or something that we bought. We are supposed to launch another PAKSAT-MM1 later (I don't know why the same name).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> The need for satcom is not lost on the people developing these systems. This I can say for sure based on personal interactions. Also, I don't think Beidou are used for communication, just positioning. I suspect the development of PAKSAT-MM1 is basically to enable satcom for Pakistani UAVs.
> 
> Note: There is a PAKSAT-MM1 already in orbit but that's not the one I am talking about. This old PAKSAT-MM1 was AsiaSat or something that we bought. We are supposed to launch another PAKSAT-MM1 later (I don't know why the same name).


It looks like they still have to tippy-toe around SATCOM. At IDEAS 2018, SUPARCO told me that PAKSAT-MM1 will continue using Ku-band, instead of Ka-band (which other militaries are moving to with their comms satellites). There are also no immediate plans for X-band.

To me it seems that we're actually having trouble accessing Ka-band and X-band, at least for now. The military utility of those frequencies isn't lost on anyone, certainly not the US. Of course, they'll need to keep replacing satellites every 7-10 years, so it could be a cost issue (and something they'll rectify in a future satellite).

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks like they still have to tippy-toe around SATCOM. At IDEAS 2018, SUPARCO told me that PAKSAT-MM1 will continue using Ku-band, instead of Ka-band (which other militaries are moving to with their comms satellites). There are also no immediate plans for X-band.
> 
> To me it seems that we're actually having trouble accessing Ka-band and X-band, at least for now. The military utility of those frequencies isn't lost on anyone, certainly not the US. Of course, they'll need to keep replacing satellites every 7-10 years, so it could be a cost issue (and something they'll rectify in a future satellite).


I believe Ku band is fine for our needs, at least for the near future. We are not planning to fly 100s of UAVs at the same time with 4K video feeds. I wouldn't surprised if there no immediate plans for Ka satellites.


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## Ark_Angel

Bratva said:


> Zaid Hamid leaked the Pakistani drone attack video on his twitter last year. Takeaway from that video was, Pakistan drone operators observing movement through GCS consoles and dropping a payload on terrorists. The missile was of low yield and it only killed 1 and 2 terrorists ran away and then Pakistani drone operator enthusiastically asking to send another drone to finish the job
> 
> So analysis of the video showed existing drones has 1 or 2 missile capacity only. The missile is of low yield low weight, cant be used for one shot one kill scenarios like Hell fire missile. Also that drone was being operated through Line of Sight. And Pakistan has to send multiple drones to kill few terrorists due to very low payload capacity.
> 
> If the new drone that you are talking about is gonna be operated through LoS, then I assume using it in Balochistan and Fata hilly terrain would cause an issue due Line of Sight. And Linking it up with Beidou should be utmost priority if the strikes has to be carried across Afghanistan or you want the Drone to loiter and reconnoiter over an area for 10-12 hours at a stretch
> 
> Take an example of turkish drone performance in Libya recently and how it helped G NA against Haftar forces. It is LoS but drones were used in Urban warfare where LoS is not an issue.


That video was of an older platform which the World Knows as Burraq UCAV. Burraq is a tactical UCAV which requires LOS. The newer bird is not from NESCOM and is from a different entity, is MALE in its true sense and carries A newer Improved and heavier payload. It has a SATCOM link/INS/Jamming/Spoofing Proof protocols. It a different beast.

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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> The need for satcom is not lost on the people developing these systems. This I can say for sure based on personal interactions. Also, I don't think Beidou are used for communication, just positioning. I suspect the development of PAKSAT-MM1 is basically to enable satcom for Pakistani UAVs.
> 
> Note: There is a PAKSAT-MM1 already in orbit but that's not the one I am talking about. This old PAKSAT-MM1 was AsiaSat or something that we bought. We are supposed to launch another PAKSAT-MM1 later (I don't know why the same name).



Yes. There appears to be a genuine realization of the importance of SATCOM among the military policymakers. 
The SATCOM-capable Sea Eagle for the PN is one such example. 
And the PN probably has the heaviest requirement for secure SATCOM among the 3 services owing to the distances generally involved in Naval missions.
There are some other PN-related developments and acquisitions that corroborate the high importance the PN accords to SATCOM.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

T-123456 said:


> I'll wait and see then.


They have been developing several systems and platforms under Project Azm.






Can you see what appears to be a fuselage in the background:











The high speed target drone was tested last year in december 19..

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## JamD

Ark_Angel said:


> That video was of an older platform which the World Knows as Burraq UCAV. Burraq is a tactical UCAV which requires LOS. The newer bird is not from NESCOM and is from a different entity, is MALE in its true sense and carries A newer Improved and heavier payload. It has a SATCOM link/INS/Jamming/Spoofing Proof protocols. It a different beast.


My gut feel says AWC which is technically NESCOM but you say it's not NESCOM. So I'm either confused, excited, or skeptical lol.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They have been developing several systems and platforms under Project Azm.
> View attachment 649813
> 
> 
> Can you see what appears to be a fuselage in the background:
> 
> View attachment 649817
> View attachment 649816
> View attachment 649815
> 
> The high speed target drone was tested last year in december 19..


We need to stop derailing this thread but that target drone has had some serious problems to say the least.

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> My gut feel says AWC which is technically NESCOM but you say it's not NESCOM. So I'm either confused, excited, or skeptical lol.


PAC?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> PAC?


That would be interesting. We can barely see two or (at best) four fuselage jigs, so reports of an export order for such a system would imply that the UAV line at AMF is much, much bigger now. I don't we we'd be able to balance export orders + domestic needs without said expansion. So, I wonder, did they clear room from the K-8 area, or is it some net-new expansion? OTOH it might take less time to build fuselages, so what we see in the pics is enough?

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## TheDarkKnight

Ark_Angel said:


> That video was of an older platform which the World Knows as Burraq UCAV. Burraq is a tactical UCAV which requires LOS. The newer bird is not from NESCOM and is from a different entity, is MALE in its true sense and carries A newer Improved and heavier payload. It has a SATCOM link/INS/Jamming/Spoofing Proof protocols. It a different beast.


Well if we are exporting it then it means PAF and PA must be an operator of these drones in a good number. Does this open options for us to take action against sanctuaries in neighboring countries such as Afghanistan?
Also if you dont mind can you let us know of a comparable UCAV to this new Pakistani drone? Is it like CH5 or Predator?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That would be interesting. We can barely see two or (at best) four fuselage jigs, so reports of an export order for such a system would imply that the UAV line at AMF is much, much bigger now. I don't we we'd be able to balance export orders + domestic needs without said expansion. So, I wonder, did they clear room from the K-8 area, or is it some net-new expansion? OTOH it might take less time to build fuselages, so what we see in the pics is enough?


Per what @JamD had share. 19 jigs have been commissioned at the beginning of 2020. Also We don’t know about the delivery schedule on the said export order. It it could be over next couple or few years:

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## Ark_Angel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That would be interesting. We can barely see two or (at best) four fuselage jigs, so reports of an export order for such a system would imply that the UAV line at AMF is much, much bigger now. I don't we we'd be able to balance export orders + domestic needs without said expansion. So, I wonder, did they clear room from the K-8 area, or is it some net-new expansion? OTOH it might take less time to build fuselages, so what we see in the pics is enough?


Own orders being diverted currently to fill the immediate need for the export order. No expansion currently undertaken but it's in the pipeline.

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## Kabotar

I have a few questions. 

1. Is export order is for new UAV we have developed in house?

2. Is it UAV or UCAV?

3. If it is a UCAV are we also making payloads? Cause that's where repeat ordered are and alot more money. 

4. What's the total value of the deal?


Ark_Angel said:


> Own orders being diverted currently to fill the immediate need for the export order. No expansion currently undertaken but it's in the pipeline.


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## ziya



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## BaybarsHan



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## -------

Hizir Torpedo Countermeasure System to be integrated into Pakistani Corvettes






4 KULAÇ Echo sounder Systems export for Pakistan MİLGEM, will be produced and integrated into platforms.






ASELSAN shall supply Combat Systems for four Corvettes to be constructed for Pakistan Navy. In this scope, a contract was signed between ASFAT A.Ş. and ASELSAN on 14th November, 2019.

Source - Aselsan Annual Report 2019

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

I was wondering if Turkey got the license to resell engine and radar considering Ada class uses engine and radar imported from Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada-class_corvette

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Austin Powers said:


> I was wondering if Turkey got the license to resell engine and radar considering Ada class uses engine and radar imported from Germany.


Aselsan manufactures the radar domestically. The original OEM -- Thales -- even imports the TRMs from Turkey. So, the radar isn't the issue. And even if it was an issue, the PN can probably import a similar or better radar from Saab or Hensoldt. As for the engines, the PN is able to buy them from Germany itself, there are no restrictions (at least for MTU diesel engines) on that front.

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## SQ8

Ark_Angel said:


> That video was of an older platform which the World Knows as Burraq UCAV. Burraq is a tactical UCAV which requires LOS. The newer bird is not from NESCOM and is from a different entity, is MALE in its true sense and carries A newer Improved and heavier payload. It has a SATCOM link/INS/Jamming/Spoofing Proof protocols. It a different beast.


Whatever happened to SATUMA? It was a private group that had interesting tandem wing configuration which could have been scaled up.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## JamD

SQ8 said:


> Whatever happened to SATUMA? It was a private group that had interesting tandem wing configuration which could have been scaled up.
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I don't know if this is a valid way to judge a company but I recently went through their website and I don't think they are doing too well.

They're last military contracts were 2014, after which they have been doing commercial stuff, which in itself is a good thing, but these are small scale things so looks more like desperation and less like diversification.





Secondly, their product line seems to be scaled version of the same basic design. I feel like they've got too many models that don't distinguish themselves from each other.

Thirdly, since the military is now making their own UAVs in large numbers I think SATUMA has lost that market.

On a separate note their optical payload looks like a webcam on a mount:





I know SATUMA is an old company with a lot of heritage but I believe they are not getting any attention from the biggest buyer (military) and are being forced to go into commercial projects. Also it appears they have not kept with the times and seem to be stuck in the 90s. The military may be ignoring them because they're stuck in the 90's or they might be stuck in the 90's because the military is ignoring them which results in little R&D. Not sure which. But I wouldn't expect SATUMA to do anything useful anytime soon (other than target drones).

For some reason ID seems to be doing well (or maybe they've learnt to show off better lol). I know your opinion of Sabri and I have my own reasons to mostly agree too lol.
EDIT: Doing well = lots of new and diverse products, which usually means money to spend for development.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I don't know if this is a valid way to judge a company but I recently went through their website and I don't think they are doing too well.
> 
> They're last military contracts were 2014, after which they have been doing commercial stuff, which in itself is a good thing, but these are small scale things so looks more like desperation and less like diversification.
> View attachment 657371
> 
> 
> Secondly, their product line seems to be scaled version of the same basic design. I feel like they've got too many models that don't distinguish themselves from each other.
> 
> Thirdly, since the military is now making their own UAVs in large numbers I think SATUMA has lost that market.
> 
> On a separate note their optical payload looks like a webcam on a mount:
> View attachment 657370
> 
> 
> I know SATUMA is an old company with a lot of heritage but I believe they are not getting any attention from the biggest buyer (military) and are being forced to go into commercial projects. Also it appears they have not kept with the times and seem to be stuck in the 90s. The military may be ignoring them because they're stuck in the 90's or they might be stuck in the 90's because the military is ignoring them which results in little R&D. Not sure which. But I wouldn't expect SATUMA to do anything useful anytime soon (other than target drones).
> 
> For some reason ID seems to be doing well (or maybe they've learnt to show off better lol). I know your opinion of Sabri and I have my own reasons to mostly agree too lol.
> EDIT: Doing well = lots of new and diverse products, which usually means money to spend for development.


ID's pseudo-satellite/HAPS projects look really interesting, let's see if NESCOM thiefs it Lol. If there was a way to trigger ID, it'd be copying the HAPS IMO.

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## ziya

milsoft system on milgem

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## ziya



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## ziya



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## aziqbal

MILGEM seems a like a great warship


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## nomi007



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## Path-Finder

Bratva said:


> Zaid Hamid leaked the Pakistani drone attack video on his twitter last year. Takeaway from that video was, Pakistan drone operators observing movement through GCS consoles and dropping a payload on terrorists. The missile was of low yield and it only killed 1 and 2 terrorists ran away and then Pakistani drone operator enthusiastically asking to send another drone to finish the job
> 
> So analysis of the video showed existing drones has 1 or 2 missile capacity only. The missile is of low yield low weight, cant be used for one shot one kill scenarios like Hell fire missile. Also that drone was being operated through Line of Sight. And Pakistan has to send multiple drones to kill few terrorists due to very low payload capacity.
> 
> If the new drone that you are talking about is gonna be operated through LoS, then I assume using it in Balochistan and Fata hilly terrain would cause an issue due Line of Sight. And Linking it up with Beidou should be utmost priority if the strikes has to be carried across Afghanistan or you want the Drone to loiter and reconnoiter over an area for 10-12 hours at a stretch
> 
> Take an example of turkish drone performance in Libya recently and how it helped G NA against Haftar forces. It is LoS but drones were used in Urban warfare where LoS is not an issue.


can you post that video? Thanks.


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## ziya



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## Vapour

ziya said:


> View attachment 676550



In terms of comparison with the blocking of engines for the T-129 Atak helicopters, hope that these turbines aren't at risk of being blocked by the US Govt upon the fitting date.


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## Yasser76

Vapour said:


> In terms of comparison with the blocking of engines for the T-129 Atak helicopters, hope that these turbines aren't at risk of being blocked by the US Govt upon the fitting date.



These are civil engines like many on warships, so unlikely.

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## Vapour

Yasser76 said:


> These are civil engines like many on warships, so unlikely.



You may be right but not sure if there was in-depth disclosure about the exact reason why the LHTEC T800 was blocked for export. the T-129 issue pertains to supplying engines for export, I.e. the export licence not being granted to sell to Pakistan, similarly, the LM2500, though it may be dual-use, is marketed as a primarily Navy use gas turbine. So just hoping that PN has done its homework and that this isn't the nth time that we get bitten by the US.

However, guess there are more alternatives out there for this vis-a-vis attack helicopter engines.


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## Pak_Sher

ziya said:


> View attachment 676550


GE Turbines with US Technology will last long with good quality

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## The Accountant

Vapour said:


> You may be right but not sure if there was in-depth disclosure about the exact reason why the LHTEC T800 was blocked for export. the T-129 issue pertains to supplying engines for export, I.e. the export licence not being granted to sell to Pakistan, similarly, the LM2500, though it may be dual-use, is marketed as a primarily Navy use gas turbine. So just hoping that PN has done its homework and that this isn't the nth time that we get bitten by the US.
> 
> However, guess there are more alternatives out there for this vis-a-vis attack helicopter engines.


Probably to stop turkey from helicopter export market as alternate are few. In case of ship alternate are available so GE dont want to loose business

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## Scorpiooo

Can they host heli ?


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## syed_yusuf

I predict that the length of these ships will be between 106 meters and 108 meters


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## mingle

Which Heli PN gonna use on milgem and Damin corvettes???


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## Tipu7

Construction of both Milgem class is going smoothly.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Construction of both Milgem class is going smoothly.
> 
> View attachment 693349
> View attachment 693350


I have a feeling that Pakistan will increase the order of both Type 54 A and MILGEM Corvettes. I am not talking about Jinah class. Just Type 54 A and MILGEM.

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## Aamir Hussain

Sir Type 54 definitely but Milgem will be taken over by Jinnah class boats of which 4 will be produced. Lots of common component will be between both classes. The Sensor suit, Combat Management, Armament (Except for SAM) and propulsion systems will be, to a large extent, common. I believe only the load out will see changes; more VLS.

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## xbat

wow! while our ISTIF(istanbul) class ship is lying like a wreck , pakistani milgem grows fast.

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## The Eagle

@Zarvan However, I feel that Jinnah class will be the further evolution of Milgem stopping at 4 ships only.

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## RealNapster

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan However, I feel that Jinnah class will be the further evolution of Milgem stopping at 4 ships only.



6-8 Type 054A
4 Milgem
8 Jinnah Class. 

That would be something awesome.

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## The Eagle

RealNapster said:


> 6-8 Type 054A
> 4 Milgem
> 8 Jinnah Class.
> 
> That would be something awesome.



The initial number of Type 054A and Milgem class is finalized. However, we have news of one JInnah class at this stage but I feel that there will be mokre of Jinnah class. I agree- it is going to be an awesome fleet as you mentioned.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> @Zarvan However, I feel that Jinnah class will be the further evolution of Milgem stopping at 4 ships only.


Jinah class off course will come. No one is doubting that. What I am saying we would see more Milgem corvettes and more Type 54 A. I mean more than four.


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Jinah class off course will come. No one is doubting that. What I am saying we would see more Milgem corvettes and more Type 54 A. I mean more than four.



I understand bro and cannot deny you as I don't have anything to state as official plan. However, I felt differently in this regard that Milgem acquisition might stop at 4 and then the fleet will be growing with Jinnah class as the evolution of same Milgem, 

@RealNapster allow me to add further to my previous post that I observe the PN also procures number of platforms based upon quality & their different roles per doctrine. Conclusively, as I believe, PN will be adding ships but there will be untold difference of capability of respective platform and that is not going to be mere numbers of ships.

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## syed_yusuf

Once jinnah class start crunching put the modified ada class of PN will stop at 4. However type54a might see more orders or may be on shifts to 52d 

Crossover m3v will see day light by 2023 and by end of next decade PN. Will a major force in IoR

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## ACE OF HEARTS

Follow on order of Milgem Corvettes, could / should / would be the Tf - 2000 AAW Destroyer, depending on the developments and progress made by Turkey.


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## aziqbal

great news 

cant wait till Pakistan takes delivery of these units


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## The Eagle

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=401545051054939

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## Tank131

I doubt there will be more MILGEM or Type 054A. With 4 modified MILGEM and 4 054A the foreign frigate builds should be complete unless PN cannot produce enough Jinnah in a timely fashion. The entire point of acquiring the rights to Jinnah was to produce the needed frigates in house. Acquiring more Frigates from foreign suppliers (unless there is an urgent need to quickly add to the fleet) would be counterproductive. Future acquisitions from China or Turkey would be either heavy frigates (5000t range) or destroyer (6000-7000t range). If there is this would most likely include Type 054B (aka the 057) which is in the 5000t range or 052D destroyer in the 7500t range. My money would be on the 054B. 

Ideally they need to figure out a way to get a quad packed missile for standard use across all platforms with VLS in PN. There are reports of their interest in CAMM-ER (40km + range but likely to be out to 80-90km ormmaybe more) and with good relations with Italy, it may yet be possible...although im not sure if UK could pose an issue there. Other options are the K-SAAM from SKorea but that may require Russian approval. There is also the G-40 missile in development from Turkey. If its development is successful it would be the easiest to acquire. CAMM-ER would be my choice. 

These would enable more flexibility for all vessel, allowing 64 medium range missiles for MILGEM, up to 128 for 054A (but more likely 64 with the other 16 celks used for other weapson like CY-5 and or Babur or possibly 16 HQ-9.
On larger vessels it would allow for similar mix of weapons.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Tank131 said:


> I doubt there will be more MILGEM or Type 054A. With 4 modified MILGEM and 4 054A the foreign frigate builds should be complete unless PN cannot produce enough Jinnah in a timely fashion. The entire point of acquiring the rights to Jinnah was to produce the needed frigates in house. Acquiring more Frigates from foreign suppliers (unless there is an urgent need to quickly add to the fleet) would be counterproductive. Future acquisitions from China or Turkey would be either heavy frigates (5000t range) or destroyer (6000-7000t range). If there is this would most likely include Type 054B (aka the 057) which is in the 5000t range or 052D destroyer in the 7500t range. My money would be on the 054B.
> 
> Ideally they need to figure out a way to get a quad packed missile for standard use across all platforms with VLS in PN. There are reports of their interest in CAMM-ER (40km + range but likely to be out to 80-90km ormmaybe more) and with good relations with Italy, it may yet be possible...although im not sure if UK could pose an issue there. Other options are the K-SAAM from SKorea but that may require Russian approval. There is also the G-40 missile in development from Turkey. If its development is successful it would be the easiest to acquire. CAMM-ER would be my choice.
> 
> These would enable more flexibility for all vessel, allowing 64 medium range missiles for MILGEM, up to 128 for 054A (but more likely 64 with the other 16 celks used for other weapson like CY-5 and or Babur or possibly 16 HQ-9.
> On larger vessels it would allow for similar mix of weapons.




G40 Just a capability acquisition project, not entirely precise and low altitude. It is planned to replace ESSMs even if it happens, missiles such as CAMM \ CAMM-ER with speed coincide with some land-based and sea-adapted Chinese Sams. At these altitudes and ranges, Hisar O + starts production within 3 months and uses a double impact engine, so you don't need to analyze in vain, even if you don't buy from China (which you will get), you will not be without missiles.

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## Zarvan

Tank131 said:


> I doubt there will be more MILGEM or Type 054A. With 4 modified MILGEM and 4 054A the foreign frigate builds should be complete unless PN cannot produce enough Jinnah in a timely fashion. The entire point of acquiring the rights to Jinnah was to produce the needed frigates in house. Acquiring more Frigates from foreign suppliers (unless there is an urgent need to quickly add to the fleet) would be counterproductive. Future acquisitions from China or Turkey would be either heavy frigates (5000t range) or destroyer (6000-7000t range). If there is this would most likely include Type 054B (aka the 057) which is in the 5000t range or 052D destroyer in the 7500t range. My money would be on the 054B.
> 
> Ideally they need to figure out a way to get a quad packed missile for standard use across all platforms with VLS in PN. There are reports of their interest in CAMM-ER (40km + range but likely to be out to 80-90km ormmaybe more) and with good relations with Italy, it may yet be possible...although im not sure if UK could pose an issue there. Other options are the K-SAAM from SKorea but that may require Russian approval. There is also the G-40 missile in development from Turkey. If its development is successful it would be the easiest to acquire. CAMM-ER would be my choice.
> 
> These would enable more flexibility for all vessel, allowing 64 medium range missiles for MILGEM, up to 128 for 054A (but more likely 64 with the other 16 celks used for other weapson like CY-5 and or Babur or possibly 16 HQ-9.
> On larger vessels it would allow for similar mix of weapons.


More Type 54 A and MILGEM depends on the size of Navy we want and do we want an aggressive Navy or not. So I am quite hopeful that both Type 54 A and MILGEM will get doubled and then will come Jinah class that too will be eight in total.


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## ziya

this picture taken from aselsan hakim project


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## Aamir Hussain

IMHO 2 follow on orders of Type 54 X (Yes it is still to be sub classified -- maybe around 2023), no more modified Milgem (Might eventually be known as Jinnah Class Flight 1 because it is not the standard Milgem) after the four ordered. The Jinnah Class will be a heavier version of modified Milgem/Jinnah. 

To support the program of Jinnah Class, Azmat Class and two follow-on Tankers, PN plans to setup another Shipyard. That alone is an indicator that somewhere around 2022-23 we will see another spurt of orders for surface vessels.

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## HRK

ziya said:


> this picture taken from aselsan hakim project


could you plz explain this pic in little bit of detail ....

It appear this pic is showing Turkish underdevelopment cruise missile .... but no launcher is visible on the ship ....

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## ziya

we do not know but roketsan atmaca anti ship missile will get land attack capability on future

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## Tank131

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> G40 Just a capability acquisition project, not entirely precise and low altitude. It is planned to replace ESSMs even if it happens, missiles such as CAMM \ CAMM-ER with speed coincide with some land-based and sea-adapted Chinese Sams. At these altitudes and ranges, Hisar O + starts production within 3 months and uses a double impact engine, so you don't need to analyze in vain, even if you don't buy from China (which you will get), you will not be without missiles.



What i was saying wasn't that PN shipsnwould be without missiles, rather that those ships would benefit from replacing those missiles (be it Hisar O or Hq-16) with another medium ranged missile which is quad packed in order to 1) carry more missiles per ship and 2) allow for better utilization of available VLS cells without sacrificing protection (for example 16 cells on a type 054A could carry 64 missiles and allow for utilizing the other 16 cells for CY-5, Babur, or even longer ranged missile like HQ-9 if itnfits the type 054A VLS).


Zarvan said:


> More Type 54 A and MILGEM depends on the size of Navy we want and do we want an aggressive Navy or not. So I am quite hopeful that both Type 54 A and MILGEM will get doubled and then will come Jinah class that too will be eight in total.


IF PN needs to further expand the fleet quickly then yes (as i said) i could see a follow up order (Type 054A rather than MILGEM if we are talking necessity for speed), but if not necessarily need rapid addition to the fleet, i dont see it happening. Any follow-up orders would need to add further capabilities (ie a bigger ship with new, longer range weapons) like 052D or 054B.

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## HRK

ziya said:


> we do not know but roketsan atmaca anti ship missile will get land attack capability on future


but the missile shown in the pic is somewhat similar to Gezgin Cruise Missile of Turkey which I think is more intriguing factor in that pic than Milgem Corvette ....

so my interest is to know that is it just another imagination of some fanboy or there is some new development in this regards .... ???

Thnx in advance ...

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## Viking 63

I dont understand why spend 1 billion usd to buy 4 corvettes when for the money we could have bought 4-5 Type 054 from China ??

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## Tank131

Viking 63 said:


> I dont understand why spend 1 billion usd to buy 4 corvettes when for the money we could have bought 4-5 Type 054 from China ??


There is a operations cost to the ships as well (example is complement of Ada is 93 vs. 165 for type 054A). The cost of operating MILGEM is significantly less than Type 054A. But also remember a big chunk of the PN Milgem program is getting the ToT and rights to the design

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## Tejas Spokesman

Sorry the tweet is in Turkish:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338586951444701184
Google translate: 
Export of any platform using US-made systems, subsystems and parts, especially T129 and MilGem, is not possible until a replacement is found.

The same is true for equipment etc. to be produced for the TAF & whose contracts have not yet been signed (Ex: the remaining ships of class I)


Please rectify if there was any translation error.


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## nomi007

Pak have to buy engines directly from USA for ada class.


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> Pak have to buy engines directly from USA for ada class.


pakistan already purchased . 

4 LM-2500 Gas turbine (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey.






Trade Registers
 






armstrade.sipri.org

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## Neurath

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan already purchased .
> 
> 4 LM-2500 Gas turbine (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trade Registers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> armstrade.sipri.org


Thank you for telling this!
I was so worried, thought that the entire project was over.


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## Imran Khan

Neurath said:


> Thank you for telling this!
> I was so worried, thought that the entire project was over.


it was signed in 2018 as i remember sir

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## waz

Tejas Spokesman said:


> Sorry the tweet is in Turkish:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338586951444701184
> Google translate:
> Export of any platform using US-made systems, subsystems and parts, especially T129 and MilGem, is not possible until a replacement is found.
> 
> The same is true for equipment etc. to be produced for the TAF & whose contracts have not yet been signed (Ex: the remaining ships of class I)
> 
> 
> Please rectify if there was any translation error.



Everything was cleared, this was discussed a while back now. The first two ships are nearing completion.
The first will be launched in the year coming 2021 and delivered to Pakistan Navy in 2023. The remaining ships will follow her in 6-month intervals. The last ship will be handed over in 2025.

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan already purchased .
> 
> 4 LM-2500 Gas turbine (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trade Registers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> armstrade.sipri.org


Also engines for T-129 attack helicopter.


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> Also engines for T-129 attack helicopter.


no sir not T-129 that was turkish contract and that is in trouble boss  Erdogan made a mistake.


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## Syntage

Imran Khan said:


> no sir not T-129 that was turkish contract and that is in trouble boss  udogan maked stupidity


Can't we get those engines directly and complete our order same as turbines for MILGEM corvettes?


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## The Eagle

Viking 63 said:


> I dont understand why spend 1 billion usd to buy 4 corvettes when for the money we could have bought 4-5 Type 054 from China ??



Beside the calculation in the end in Pakistan's favour, Milgem gives the freedom to produce in-house along with technical experience/teachings/training and build Jinnah class for ourselves. I will in-fact say Thanks to the Turkey for such a support in these times. 054A and Milgem are different in its specifications.

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## Imran Khan

Syntage said:


> Can't we get those engines directly and complete our order same as turbines for MILGEM corvettes?


i dont think so sir if we can we have did it long ago


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## Zarvan

ziya said:


> this picture taken from aselsan hakim project


What is this project ? Can you tell about it


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## ziya

Zarvan said:


> What is this project ? Can you tell about it

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## Incog_nito

Can someone post some pictures of the Turkish future Frigate and Destroyers?
I have heard PN is quite interested in these too.

This is besides the possible Chinese origin fleet of PN which seems to be like:

4 F-22P Corvettes - Light Frigates
4 Type-54A Frigates
4 Type-52D/Type-55 Destroyers

I'm assuming similar fleet numbers for PN from Turkish origin:

4 Milgem Corvettes - Light Frigates
4 Turkish Origin Frigates
4 Turkish Origin Destroyers

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## Aamir Hussain

Incog_nito said:


> Can someone post some pictures of the Turkish future Frigate and Destroyers?
> I have heard PN is quite interested in these too.
> 
> This is besides the possible Chinese origin fleet of PN which seems to be like:
> 
> 4 F-22P Corvettes - Light Frigates
> 4 Type-54A Frigates
> 4 Type-52D/Type-55 Destroyers
> 
> I'm assuming similar fleet numbers for PN from Turkish origin:
> 
> 4 Milgem Corvettes - Light Frigates
> 4 Turkish Origin Frigates
> 4 Turkish Origin Destroyers



4 F22P Light Frigates
4+(2) Type 54A & X Frigates (Yet to be designated sub class)
That is where the Chinese Surface Platform induction ends

4 Milgem Class Light Frigates (Or re-designated as Jinnah Class Flight 1)
4 Jinnah Class Frigates (Made in Pakistan versions of Milgem design that will possibly 32VLS Cells)

2+(2) Damen Corvettes/OPV's. Original plan for PN was to get 4 OPV's 2 from Damen and 2 from Swiftships. The Swiftship deal got canceled so there are, theoretically, need and funding available for 2 further OPV's. 

I don't think PN will go for an induction of anything bigger than a heavy frigate due to operating costs of a now standard 7000+ ton destroyer. PN never operated a warship larger than 6000 ton Ex HMS Diadem or HMS London that too for a short duration. 

The only thing that is not factored in a 24 boat surface fleet are the 2? yet to be identified surface combatants.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> 4 F22P Light Frigates
> 4+(2) Type 54A & X Frigates (Yet to be designated sub class)
> That is where the Chinese Surface Platform induction ends
> 
> 4 Milgem Class Light Frigates (Or re-designated as Jinnah Class Flight 1)
> 4 Jinnah Class Frigates (Made in Pakistan versions of Milgem design that will possibly 32VLS Cells)
> 
> 2+(2) Damen Corvettes/OPV's. Original plan for PN was to get 4 OPV's 2 from Damen and 2 from Swiftships. The Swiftship deal got canceled so there are, theoretically, need and funding available for 2 further OPV's.
> 
> I don't think PN will go for an induction of anything bigger than a heavy frigate due to operating costs of a now standard 7000+ ton destroyer. PN never operated a warship larger than 6000 ton Ex HMS Diadem or HMS London that too for a short duration.
> 
> The only thing that is not factored in a 24 boat surface fleet are the 2? yet to be identified surface combatants.


They should go for 4 Type 52Ds


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## khansaheeb

What's the defence against sea skimming missiles, does anyone know what this ship has to protect itself against Exocet type missiles?


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## Tipu7

khansaheeb said:


> What's the defence against sea skimming missiles, does anyone know what this ship has to protect itself against Exocet type missiles?
> 
> View attachment 698073


RAM Mk31 GMWS for physical defense, decoys/EW suite for passive defense.


Aamir Hussain said:


> 4 F22P Light Frigates
> 4+(2) Type 54A & X Frigates (Yet to be designated sub class)
> That is where the Chinese Surface Platform induction ends
> 
> 4 Milgem Class Light Frigates (Or re-designated as Jinnah Class Flight 1)
> 4 Jinnah Class Frigates (Made in Pakistan versions of Milgem design that will possibly 32VLS Cells)
> 
> 2+(2) Damen Corvettes/OPV's. Original plan for PN was to get 4 OPV's 2 from Damen and 2 from Swiftships. The Swiftship deal got canceled so there are, theoretically, need and funding available for 2 further OPV's.
> 
> I don't think PN will go for an induction of anything bigger than a heavy frigate due to operating costs of a now standard 7000+ ton destroyer. PN never operated a warship larger than 6000 ton Ex HMS Diadem or HMS London that too for a short duration.
> 
> The only thing that is not factored in a 24 boat surface fleet are the 2? yet to be identified surface combatants.


Out going Chief has given a framework. 

20 Major Warships 
4: F22P FFGs
4: Type 54AP FFGs 
4: Milgum FFAs
6: Undisclosed FFAs (or FFG/DDG) 
2: Yarmook class FFAs

30 other lighter warships will comprise of combination of FACs and FACMs. 

PN modernization plans have multiple phases. The one we are looking at is pre 2028 modernization plan.

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## Areesh

Tipu7 said:


> 20 Major Warships
> 4: F22P FFGs
> 4: Type 54AP FFGs
> 4: Milgum FFAs
> 6: Undisclosed FFAs
> 2: Yarmook class FFAs
> 
> 30 other lighter warships will comprise of combination of FACs and FACMs.
> 
> PN modernization plans have multiple phases. The one we are looking at is pre 2028 modernization plan.



The remaining 6 undisclosed FFA are Jinnah class frigates. At least some of them if not all

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## Tipu7

Areesh said:


> The remaining 6 undisclosed FFA are Jinnah class frigates. At least some of them if not all


There are two theories in this regard, 
1: 6 heavier tonnage vessels are heavier corvettes possibly from Daman. 
2: 6 heavier tonnage vessels are either Destroyers or combo of destroyer & frigates.

Jinnah class is a separate thing.

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## Tank131

khansaheeb said:


> What's the defence against sea skimming missiles, does anyone know what this ship has to protect itself against Exocet type missiles?
> 
> View attachment 698073



For Ada class (turkish) it has 21 cell RAM launcher. 

For PNs MILGEM they have 16 Medium range missiles in VLS (Likely Hq-16) and GOKDENIZ CIWS.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

The first Ada class could be delayed to 2030 or so due to US sanction against Turkey's defense industry. The engine of this ship is from the US.


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## Fighting Falcon 01

Tai Hai Chen said:


> The first Ada class could be delayed to 2030 or so due to US sanction against Turkey's defense industry. The engine of this ship is from the US.


The engines were already procured the project will be completed on time

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tai Hai Chen said:


> The first Ada class could be delayed to 2030 or so due to US sanction against Turkey's defense industry. The engine of this ship is from the US.


The PN can buy MTUs from Germany.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Tai Hai Chen said:


> The first Ada class could be delayed to 2030 or so due to US sanction against Turkey's defense industry. The engine of this ship is from the US.



Noop, It only affects SSB and is only for new deals. STM does the order, not SSB. As can be seen with the details of Article 2, these obstacles do not include previously purchased products. There is no official phrase "US sanction against Turkey's defense industry", this is your a*s.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Noop, It only affects SSB and is only for new deals. STM does the order, not SSB. As can be seen with the details of Article 2, these obstacles do not include previously purchased products. There is no official phrase "US sanction against Turkey's defense industry", this is your a*s.



Okay then where is Milgem? Where is picture? Type 054A already delivered. I don't see Milgem.


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## Aamir Hussain

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN can buy MTUs from Germany.


MTU Diesel engines are already procured. LM Turbines already ordered and thee is no issue with their export to Turkey. The configuration seems to be CODAG or CODOG since LM2500 is a gas turbine engine. My guess would be CODOG since this configuration requires a less complex gearbox.

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## Tipu7

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Okay then where is Milgem? Where is picture? Type 054A already delivered. I don't see Milgem.


Type 54AP deliveries will complete by 2023. Milgem deliveries will start from 2023. 
Below is the under construction Milgem of Pakistan Navy.

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## ARMalik

Aamir Hussain said:


> MTU Diesel engines are already procured. LM Turbines already ordered and thee is no issue with their export to Turkey. The configuration seems to be CODAG or CODOG since LM2500 is a gas turbine engine. My guess would be CODOG since this configuration requires a less complex gearbox.



CODAG/CODOG are old engine configurations and no one does this in modern warships. It is IEP configuration.

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## aziqbal

Tipu7 said:


> Type 54AP deliveries will complete by 2023. Milgem deliveries will start from 2023.
> Below is the under construction Milgem of Pakistan Navy.
> View attachment 700632



really must say Pakistan has achieved a great success in last 5 years and next 5 years look even more promising 

having following for over 2 decades these are some of the most exciting times and times to come are amazing 

especially so for the Navy + Air Force

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## Areesh

Tipu7 said:


> There are two theories in this regard,
> 1: 6 heavier tonnage vessels are heavier corvettes possibly from Daman.



I don't agree with this theory. If all are heavier Damen corvettes then where are Jinnah class frigates? Where do they fit in?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Tipu7 said:


> Type 54AP deliveries will complete by 2023. Milgem deliveries will start from 2023.
> Below is the under construction Milgem of Pakistan Navy.
> View attachment 700632



What makes this so expensive is the western electronics, armament, engines.


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## Zarvan

Aamir Hussain said:


> 4 F22P Light Frigates
> 4+(2) Type 54A & X Frigates (Yet to be designated sub class)
> That is where the Chinese Surface Platform induction ends
> 
> 4 Milgem Class Light Frigates (Or re-designated as Jinnah Class Flight 1)
> 4 Jinnah Class Frigates (Made in Pakistan versions of Milgem design that will possibly 32VLS Cells)
> 
> 2+(2) Damen Corvettes/OPV's. Original plan for PN was to get 4 OPV's 2 from Damen and 2 from Swiftships. The Swiftship deal got canceled so there are, theoretically, need and funding available for 2 further OPV's.
> 
> I don't think PN will go for an induction of anything bigger than a heavy frigate due to operating costs of a now standard 7000+ ton destroyer. PN never operated a warship larger than 6000 ton Ex HMS Diadem or HMS London that too for a short duration.
> 
> The only thing that is not factored in a 24 boat surface fleet are the 2? yet to be identified surface combatants.


PN will go for a Destroyer. Type 52 D is most likely candidate. The twenty ship announcement by former Naval Chief is not making any sense. And it seem he deliberately told a reduced figure.


Tipu7 said:


> There are two theories in this regard,
> 1: 6 heavier tonnage vessels are heavier corvettes possibly from Daman.
> 2: 6 heavier tonnage vessels are either Destroyers or combo of destroyer & frigates.
> 
> Jinnah class is a separate thing.


That remaining heavier corvettes are Damen class. But that doesn't mean Destroyers won't come. There is no point of working ship to surface ballistic missile and a super sonic cruise missile if you don't have any plans to induct destroyers.


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## Tipu7

Areesh said:


> I don't agree with this theory. If all are heavier Damen corvettes then where are Jinnah class frigates? Where do they fit in?


Post 2028 plans. Jinnah class will be produced in Gwadar ship yard, a yard which is yet to hit construction. 
Former Chief specifically mentioned HTVs and Jinnah class separately. Therefore I don't think J-class and HTVs are same things. 

I myself is skeptical about HTVs being heavier corvettes. But his speech sentence was making this impression.

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## Tank131

Please no further Damens if you are talking corvette this is not a corvette but a OPV which can function as a corvette if need be during war. It is a inexpensive and modern design yes BUT is not set up structurally to be able to defend itself properly, not perform all the multirole/littoral defense against other warships. Small vessels aand small arms only. It can be used as a missile platform, but that alone does not a corvette make.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Post 2028 plans. Jinnah class will be produced in Gwadar ship yard, a yard which is yet to hit construction.
> Former Chief specifically mentioned HTVs and Jinnah class separately. Therefore I don't think J-class and HTVs are same things.
> 
> I myself is skeptical about HTVs being heavier corvettes. But his speech sentence was making this impression.


No they are not. Listen to speech again. Those 6 heavier class ships he mentioned are heavier version of Tabuk Class. What made me sure that Pakistan will go for Destroyer was mentioned of Ship to land Hypersonic Ballistic Missile. If that comes forward and has range of around 1500 KM or even more. Then that for sure means Pakistan will go for Destroyers.


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## Max

Sure, Destroyers are next in line after Type 54..



Zarvan said:


> No they are not. Listen to speech again. Those 6 heavier class ships he mentioned are heavier version of Tabuk Class. What made me sure that Pakistan will go for Destroyer was mentioned of Ship to land Hypersonic Ballistic Missile. If that comes forward and has range of around 1500 KM or even more. Then that for sure means Pakistan will go for Destroyers.

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## waz

Official PN Milgem stats. Heavier and larger than the ADA class.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

waz said:


> Official PN Milgem stats. Heavier and larger than the ADA class.
> 
> View attachment 705880


Members on Pakistan Defence: man I hope pak navy doesn't get the regular MILGEM without VLS...we need VLS...

Pakistan Navy: say no more fam. 

@JamD @Tank131

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Members on Pakistan Defence: man I hope pak navy doesn't get the regular MILGEM without VLS...we need VLS...
> 
> Pakistan Navy: say no more fam.
> 
> @JamD @Tank131



Obvious now and official.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

waz said:


> Official PN Milgem stats. Heavier and larger than the ADA class.
> 
> View attachment 705880



It should be similar to Venezuela's Guaiquerí class corvettes which have the same hull and radar and main gun.









Guaiquerí-class patrol boat - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## TheDarkKnight

waz said:


> Official PN Milgem stats. Heavier and larger than the ADA class.
> 
> View attachment 705880


Comparison with the standard ADA class in Turkish Navy


ParameterTNPNDisplacement2400 tonnes2988 tonnesLength99.56m108.8mBeam14.40m14.8mDraft3.9m4.1m
I think the extra dimensions and tonnage are definitely for VLS.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Members on Pakistan Defence: man I hope pak navy doesn't get the regular MILGEM without VLS...we need VLS...
> 
> Pakistan Navy: say no more fam.
> 
> @JamD @Tank131



I think it does not have VLS. It uses European missile same as on Ada.


----------



## waz

Tai Hai Chen said:


> It should be similar to Venezuela's Guaiquerí class corvettes which have the same hull and radar and main gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guaiquerí-class patrol boat - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



It’s quite noticeably larger. This is a corvette, the PN Milgem is a light frigate by size.


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## Areesh

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Members on Pakistan Defence: man I hope pak navy doesn't get the regular MILGEM without VLS...we need VLS...
> 
> Pakistan Navy: say no more fam.
> 
> @JamD @Tank131



Members on Pakistan Defence: We should buy bigger MILGEM with better weapons and sensors and VLS for air defence missiles 

Pakistan Navy: Yes

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## waz

Tai Hai Chen said:


> I think it does not have VLS. It uses European missile same as on Ada.



Yes it does, confirmed by many sources.


TheDarkKnight said:


> Comparison with the standard ADA class in Turkish Navy
> 
> 
> ParameterTNPNDisplacement2400 tonnes2988 tonnesLength99.56m108.8mBeam14.40m14.8mDraft3.9m4.1m
> I think the extra dimensions and tonnage are definitely for VLS.



Yes for sure.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

I think Pakistan can build its own corvette rather than buy from Turkey which has a fraction the population of Pakistan. The radar, gun, sonar, missiles used on Ada are all from Europe anyway. There is no European sanction against Pakistan.


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## Titanium100

Tai Hai Chen said:


> I think Pakistan can build its own corvette rather than buy from Turkey which has a fraction the population of Pakistan. The radar, gun, sonar, missiles used on Ada are all from Europe anyway. There is no European sanction against Pakistan.



Turkey's tech is arguably one of the best in the world currently if the not the best. Pakistan has alot of local productions going but what is best on the market is bought to increase the defensive capabilities and Turkey happen to offer state of the art tech. Turkey doesn't really need parts but produce it locally As they are doing with their 5th generation fighter


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tai Hai Chen said:


> I think it does not have VLS. It uses European missile same as on Ada.


It has VLS.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It has VLS.
> 
> View attachment 705930



VLS for SAM. Canister launchers for SSM. Similar to Type 054A but falls short of the latest Russian corvettes which don't have canister launchers anymore.









Dawn of a new era as Gremyashchiy class corvette enters service


World's first corvette equipped with AESA and VLS for both anti air and anti surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremyashchiy-class_corvette @White and Green with M/S @nahtanbob @vostok @mike2000 is back @zectech @925boy



defence.pk


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## Titanium100

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nah. Turkey can't even make a radar. Something invented in the 1930s.
> 
> 
> VLS for SAM. Canister launchers for SSM. Similar to Type 054A but falls short of the latest Russian corvettes which don't have canister launchers anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn of a new era as Gremyashchiy class corvette enters service
> 
> 
> World's first corvette equipped with AESA and VLS for both anti air and anti surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremyashchiy-class_corvette @White and Green with M/S @nahtanbob @vostok @mike2000 is back @zectech @925boy
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



How am I suppose to take this reply serious and sane. This is trash spamming as usual. They have gone space and you are talking about insignificiant stuff. Waste of my time.


KALKAN air defense Radar





Kalkan (radar) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nah. Turkey can't even make a radar. Something invented in the 1930s.
> 
> 
> VLS for SAM. Canister launchers for SSM. Similar to Type 054A but falls short of the latest Russian corvettes which don't have canister launchers anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn of a new era as Gremyashchiy class corvette enters service
> 
> 
> World's first corvette equipped with AESA and VLS for both anti air and anti surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremyashchiy-class_corvette @White and Green with M/S @nahtanbob @vostok @mike2000 is back @zectech @925boy
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Yea, but the latest Western and Chinese ships use canister launchers.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yea, but the latest Western and Chinese ships use canister launchers.



Latest Chinese ships don't have anymore canister launchers. Type 052D and Type 055 don't have canister launchers. Upcoming Type 054B don't have canister launchers. Type 054A is a 2000s ship. It still has canister launchers for SSM.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Latest Chinese ships don't have anymore canister launchers. Type 052D and Type 055 don't have canister launchers. Upcoming Type 054B don't have canister launchers. Type 054A is a 2000s ship. It still has canister launchers for SSM.


...are those for sale?

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nah. Turkey can't even make a radar. Something invented in the 1930s.
> 
> 
> VLS for SAM. Canister launchers for SSM. Similar to Type 054A but falls short of the latest Russian corvettes which don't have canister launchers anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn of a new era as Gremyashchiy class corvette enters service
> 
> 
> World's first corvette equipped with AESA and VLS for both anti air and anti surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremyashchiy-class_corvette @White and Green with M/S @nahtanbob @vostok @mike2000 is back @zectech @925boy
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



Yes, Turkey can not make the radar.
What a bitch on this page. At least in bilateral agreements, I stayed in the forum to inform Pakistanis from Turkish sources, but since you still can't ban this troll, I guess you don't want these few people either.









SSB - TÜRK SAVUNMA SANAYİİ ÜRÜN KATALOĞU


SSB - TÜRK SAVUNMA SANAYİİ ÜRÜN KATALOĞU




www.ssb.gov.tr

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## ziaulislam

Areesh said:


> The remaining 6 undisclosed FFA are Jinnah class frigates. At least some of them if not all


i hope so
3500tones 32(quad pak) VLS Jinnah frigates should be good enough to coutner india

type 54 are important because they are cheap, let us get back lost time(very quick to build) and help us to syn with china but out focus should be jinnah class for the future 

next Pakistan needs a mass produced medium range quad pack SAM that it can use among all services (air, land and sea)

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## ziaulislam

Tai Hai Chen said:


> I think it does not have VLS. It uses European missile same as on Ada.


Shhh.... 
please stay quiet

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## SBUS-CXK

054A can help Pakistan carry out a long-range strike（Offensive operations）. Milgem can help Pakistan to achieve offshore defense.

China uses 70+ 056 for coastal defense. This allows 054A and other advanced warships to cruise around the world.

I believe Pakistan has the same strategy.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

SBUS-CXK said:


> 054A can help Pakistan carry out a long-range strike（Offensive operations）. Milgem can help Pakistan to achieve offshore defense.
> 
> China uses 70+ 056 for coastal defense. This allows 054A and other advanced warships to cruise around the world.
> 
> I believe Pakistan has the same strategy.



Type 054A is old design from early 2000s. Type 054B is the one to watch.


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## SBUS-CXK

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Type 054A is old design from early 2000s. Type 054B is the one to watch.


054A has been improving and upgrading. new 054A is completely different from the earlier 054A. and according to the current information. 054B may only serve the 003 aircraft carrier strike group. or 075 amphibious assault group. there will be no other uses..............………

Back to Milgem. It's a new ship. New design. some new weapon systems. Good weapon platform. But I think it can still be more progressive, more stronger and more advanced. In fact, China and the Turkish brothers can have a lot of military cooperation. It's a pity that China has no ports in the Mediterranean. so many projects cannot be carried out. yes. we have a port in Greece. but we can't dock warships. If the Turkish brothers give us a port. I believe in 5-10 years. you'll see a stronger Turkish Navy.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

SBUS-CXK said:


> 054A has been improving and upgrading. new 054A is completely different from the earlier 054A. and according to the current information. 054B may only serve the 003 aircraft carrier strike group. or 075 amphibious assault group. there will be no other uses..............………
> 
> Back to Milgem. It's a new ship. New design. some new weapon systems. Good weapon platform. But I think it can still be more progressive, more stronger and more advanced. In fact, China and the Turkish brothers can have a lot of military cooperation. It's a pity that China has no ports in the Mediterranean. so many projects cannot be carried out. yes. we have a port in Greece. but we can't dock warships. If the Turkish brothers give us a port. I believe in 5-10 years. you'll see a stronger Turkish Navy.




I thought you had a lot of assets in Africa, Tunisia? Libya vs Couldn't it be for you?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Nah. Turkey can't even make a radar. Something invented in the 1930s.


*Please refrain from inflammatory comments such as these. They do NOTHING other than hijack the discussion and ruin the forum.*

*Post has been edited to remove referenced comment, I'd like to advise those who responded to also go back an edit their posts to remove references to said comment.*

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## SBUS-CXK

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I thought you had a lot of assets in Africa, Tunisia? Libya vs Couldn't it be for you?


If the Turkish brothers give us a port (It can dock warships and subs). we will also invite Turkish brothers to jointly develop Africa.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

SBUS-CXK said:


> If the Turkish brothers give us a port (It can dock warships and subs). we will also invite Turkish brothers to jointly develop Africa.




Yes, if your Turkish brothers do this thing, unfortunately, they will need Africa a lot.


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## waz

The more that comes out about this ship the understanding of just how capable this vessel is goes up. It seriously is a fantastic ship.

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## aziqbal

SBUS-CXK said:


> If the Turkish brothers give us a port (It can dock warships and subs). we will also invite Turkish brothers to jointly develop Africa.



Yes it would be good if China can work with Turkey

Turkey has super advanced EW systems and also China can hugely help in the shipbuilding sector

image a Chinese Carrier Strike Group Transit the Suez Canal with 5,000 sailors 

1 x Carrier
1 x Type 901 Tanker
3 x Type 055
2 x Type 052DL
1 x SSN

or a Amphibious ready group (ARG)

1 x Type 075 LHD
2 x Type 071 LPD
2 x Type 052DL
2 x Type 055
1 x SSN

it would have the West looking in horror

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## peagle

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Yes, Turkey can not make the radar.
> What a bitch on this page. At least in bilateral agreements, I stayed in the forum to inform Pakistanis from Turkish sources, but since you still can't ban this troll, I guess you don't want these few people either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SSB - TÜRK SAVUNMA SANAYİİ ÜRÜN KATALOĞU
> 
> 
> SSB - TÜRK SAVUNMA SANAYİİ ÜRÜN KATALOĞU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ssb.gov.tr



Come on, brother.
Life is full of characters, do your thing without getting angry. 
Odd people may annoy you, but, I can assure you the vast majority have nothing expect love and respect for you guys.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

waz said:


> Official PN Milgem stats. Heavier and larger than the ADA class.
> 
> View attachment 705880


Hey @waz where did you find the image?


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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Members on Pakistan Defence: man I hope pak navy doesn't get the regular MILGEM without VLS...we need VLS...
> 
> Pakistan Navy: say no more fam.
> 
> @JamD @Tank131


ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, you didnt tag the main man our derwaish Hazrat @Zarvan

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Hey @waz where did you find the image?



Turkish Navy personal.

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## Falcon26

_Additional key details about these ships @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz _


*A Look At PN MILGEM/JINNAH Program*






When the the high-resolution image of MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvette is examined, which was prepared and shared in an electronic environment at the ceremony, it can be immediately noticed that it differs in external appearance from both ADA Class Corvettes and İSTİF Class Frigates of the Turkish Navy. *In terms of technical features the JINNAH Class Corvettes can be located between the 2,400-ton (at full load) ADA Class Corvettes (have an overall length of 99.56m, an overall beam of 14.4m and draught of 3.89m) and the 3,000-ton İSTİF Class Frigates (have an overall length of 113.2m, an overall beam of 14.42m and draught of 4,05).* According to PN MILGEM brochure issued by ASFAT recently the JINNAH Class Corvettes with mono-hull, displacement-type hull form, will have an overall length of 108.8 metres, an overall beam of 14.8m, draught of 4.1m, maximum speed of 26+ knots and displacement of 2.988 tons. As in the İSTİF Class, *JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with Leonardo DRS (Oto Melara) 76 mm Super Rapid gun* (it is claimed that the order was placed for 4 guns in the second half of 2019, but according to the information we have obtained the contract was signed only for one ship). *The Fire Control System of the 76 mm Super Rapid gun will be an Aselsan product, and the required Fire Control Radars will also be provided by Aselsan* (the product in the image is similar to the AKR-D Block-1, one is right above the bridge and the other is right behind the GÖKDENİZ CIWS placed at the stern of the ship.)

*Just behind the bow gun there is a 16-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) for the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System. *The HHQ-16/LY-80N, which is a medium-range, semi-active radar-guided air defense missile system from China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CASC), is also used at the Type 054A/P Frigates that are under construction in China for the Pakistan Navy (together with 32-cell VLS). *The HHQ-16, with a maximum range of 42 km (HHQ-16B, the upgraded version of the missile has a range of 70 km), *has a warhead weighing 70 kg and is claimed to be capable of intercepting targets at altitudes between 15 m and 18 km. Pakistan Land Forces, on the other hand, ordered 6 batteries from the land-based version of the HHQ-16 System (HQ-16A/LY-80) for US$ 373 million (another source indicates as US$ 226 million for 3 batteries) and 8 IBIS-150 Radars (HQ-16A/LY-80 Air Surveillance Radar) for US$ 40 million and inducted into service in March 2017. One of the HQ-16A/LY-80 batteries is deployed in Karachi. On board the JINNAH Class there are two Type 345 (NATO code MR-90 Front Dome) Illuminating Radars which are part of the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System, the first one is located right in front of the mast and the other one is located just behind the funnel.

*MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid *(used for reducing the RCS of the ship) at the port and starboard at the pool section right behind the mainmast, two 25 mm Remote Controlled Stabilized Naval Guns (STOP) manufactured by Aselsan (at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse) and again two Mk32 two-barrel surface vessel torpedo tubes in 324 mm diameter and to be placed at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse.

The JINNAH Class Corvettes will incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. *Some of them are as follows: Havelsan’s GENESİS ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan’s SMART-S Mk2 Three Dimensional Naval Search Radar (3BAR), ALPER Navigation and LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) Radar, ARES-2N Radar ESM (AREAS-2NC Radar Electronic Attack System is also expected to be deployed at these ships), Laser Warning System, HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System and Inertial Navigation System (LN-270 INS/GPS), Integrated Platform Control and Monitoring System manufactured by YALTES and METEKSAN Defence’s YAKAMOS Hull Mounted Sonar System. *The JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSOFT for the PN and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green”. *The Pakistan Naval Forces established a communication infrastructure named RedLine across the country to enable communication among NIXS equipped platforms *

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## Yasser76

Falcon26 said:


> _Additional key details about these ships @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz _
> 
> 
> *A Look At PN MILGEM/JINNAH Program*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the the high-resolution image of MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvette is examined, which was prepared and shared in an electronic environment at the ceremony, it can be immediately noticed that it differs in external appearance from both ADA Class Corvettes and İSTİF Class Frigates of the Turkish Navy. *In terms of technical features the JINNAH Class Corvettes can be located between the 2,400-ton (at full load) ADA Class Corvettes (have an overall length of 99.56m, an overall beam of 14.4m and draught of 3.89m) and the 3,000-ton İSTİF Class Frigates (have an overall length of 113.2m, an overall beam of 14.42m and draught of 4,05).* According to PN MILGEM brochure issued by ASFAT recently the JINNAH Class Corvettes with mono-hull, displacement-type hull form, will have an overall length of 108.8 metres, an overall beam of 14.8m, draught of 4.1m, maximum speed of 26+ knots and displacement of 2.988 tons. As in the İSTİF Class, *JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with Leonardo DRS (Oto Melara) 76 mm Super Rapid gun* (it is claimed that the order was placed for 4 guns in the second half of 2019, but according to the information we have obtained the contract was signed only for one ship). *The Fire Control System of the 76 mm Super Rapid gun will be an Aselsan product, and the required Fire Control Radars will also be provided by Aselsan* (the product in the image is similar to the AKR-D Block-1, one is right above the bridge and the other is right behind the GÖKDENİZ CIWS placed at the stern of the ship.)
> 
> *Just behind the bow gun there is a 16-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) for the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System. *The HHQ-16/LY-80N, which is a medium-range, semi-active radar-guided air defense missile system from China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CASC), is also used at the Type 054A/P Frigates that are under construction in China for the Pakistan Navy (together with 32-cell VLS). *The HHQ-16, with a maximum range of 42 km (HHQ-16B, the upgraded version of the missile has a range of 70 km), *has a warhead weighing 70 kg and is claimed to be capable of intercepting targets at altitudes between 15 m and 18 km. Pakistan Land Forces, on the other hand, ordered 6 batteries from the land-based version of the HHQ-16 System (HQ-16A/LY-80) for US$ 373 million (another source indicates as US$ 226 million for 3 batteries) and 8 IBIS-150 Radars (HQ-16A/LY-80 Air Surveillance Radar) for US$ 40 million and inducted into service in March 2017. One of the HQ-16A/LY-80 batteries is deployed in Karachi. On board the JINNAH Class there are two Type 345 (NATO code MR-90 Front Dome) Illuminating Radars which are part of the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System, the first one is located right in front of the mast and the other one is located just behind the funnel.
> 
> *MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid *(used for reducing the RCS of the ship) at the port and starboard at the pool section right behind the mainmast, two 25 mm Remote Controlled Stabilized Naval Guns (STOP) manufactured by Aselsan (at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse) and again two Mk32 two-barrel surface vessel torpedo tubes in 324 mm diameter and to be placed at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse.
> 
> The JINNAH Class Corvettes will incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. *Some of them are as follows: Havelsan’s GENESİS ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan’s SMART-S Mk2 Three Dimensional Naval Search Radar (3BAR), ALPER Navigation and LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) Radar, ARES-2N Radar ESM (AREAS-2NC Radar Electronic Attack System is also expected to be deployed at these ships), Laser Warning System, HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System and Inertial Navigation System (LN-270 INS/GPS), Integrated Platform Control and Monitoring System manufactured by YALTES and METEKSAN Defence’s YAKAMOS Hull Mounted Sonar System. *The JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSOFT for the PN and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green”. *The Pakistan Naval Forces established a communication infrastructure named RedLine across the country to enable communication among NIXS equipped platforms *




Wow, first detailed revealation of equipment fit, very impressive. Interesting that weapons will be Chinese and we managed to integrate with Turkish battle management system and radar. Good to see them fully networked via "Link Green" too.

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## Turcici Imperium

Some photos from the preparations of ceremony for TCG-Istanbul are leaked in twitter












You may ask how it's relevant to the PN's Milgem. Well, we got some specs and valid delivery date there:









May 11.08.2024 be a happy day.

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## waz

*MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid




*

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## mingle

waz said:


> *MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid
> 
> View attachment 708789
> *


Which Heli??


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## Tipu7

waz said:


> MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid
> 
> 
> 
> giphy.gif



The anti ship missiles will not be in VLS, instead they will follow port-starboard configuration.
And missile choice is still tentative. Who knows it will be Harbah or something else.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> The anti ship missiles will not be in VLS, instead they will follow port-starboard configuration.
> And missile choice is still tentative. Who knows it will be Harbah or something else.
> 
> View attachment 708849


Which Heli will be fly from this corvette?


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## Awan68

waz said:


> *MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid
> 
> View attachment 708789
> *


Question, does a 6 missile load out mean that is the ships total capacity or additonal missiles are carried as reserve ammo?

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## Tipu7

mingle said:


> Which Heli will be fly from this corvette?


The ship can support 10 Ton cetagory helicopter.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> The ship can support 10 Ton cetagory helicopter.


So no final choice? Even PN can have sea eagles now if they want


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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Wow, first detailed revealation of equipment fit, very impressive. Interesting that weapons will be Chinese and we managed to integrate with Turkish battle management system and radar. Good to see them fully networked via "Link Green" too.


Very interesting observation. I suspect there are 2 aspects to consider. The Chinese must have provided Source codes forcthe missiles to be integrated. The wider incoeporation of these missiles could mean some sort of local manufacturing of the rockets. At some stage if required the 16As could be replaced by 16Bs if the requirement is there.
Secondly PN has come a long way from the type 21 days when a similar project of integration of hardware from multiple providers had to be abandoned. We now have a skills lab. Whether this is a separate on to the one PAF has or the same needs to be seen. However good steps all around
A

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## waz

Tipu7 said:


> The anti ship missiles will not be in VLS, instead they will follow port-starboard configuration.
> And missile choice is still tentative. Who knows it will be Harbah or something else.
> 
> View attachment 708849



Yes that's correct the VLS system will only be used for air defence.
If the HARBAH is not up and running then the ATMACA will be used, which is potent in itself.

I did a thread on it a while back.









The teeth of the Milgem light frigate, the Atmaca beyond line of sight strike missile


Much is being made of the Pakistani navy's modernisation program after the lost last two decades. The Milgem corvette/light frigate is an integral part of this modernisation drive. With the ship being inducted at a sizeable batch, attention should be drawn to the ship's strike capability and the...



defence.pk

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

waz said:


> Yes that's correct the VLS system will only be used for air defence.
> If the HARBAH is not up and running then the ATMACA will be used, which is potent in itself.
> 
> I did a thread on it a while back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The teeth of the Milgem light frigate, the Atmaca beyond line of sight strike missile
> 
> 
> Much is being made of the Pakistani navy's modernisation program after the lost last two decades. The Milgem corvette/light frigate is an integral part of this modernisation drive. With the ship being inducted at a sizeable batch, attention should be drawn to the ship's strike capability and the...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



Introduced in Chinese missiles


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## Tipu7

waz said:


> Yes that's correct the VLS system will only be used for air defence.
> If the HARBAH is not up and running then the ATMACA will be used, which is potent in itself.
> 
> I did a thread on it a while back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The teeth of the Milgem light frigate, the Atmaca beyond line of sight strike missile
> 
> 
> Much is being made of the Pakistani navy's modernisation program after the lost last two decades. The Milgem corvette/light frigate is an integral part of this modernisation drive. With the ship being inducted at a sizeable batch, attention should be drawn to the ship's strike capability and the...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


*there is a high supersonic anti ship missile in development. Remember?

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Very interesting observation. I suspect there are 2 aspects to consider. The Chinese must have provided Source codes forcthe missiles to be integrated. The wider incoeporation of these missiles could mean some sort of local manufacturing of the rockets. At some stage if required the 16As could be replaced by 16Bs if the requirement is there.
> Secondly PN has come a long way from the type 21 days when a similar project of integration of hardware from multiple providers had to be abandoned. We now have a skills lab. Whether this is a separate on to the one PAF has or the same needs to be seen. However good steps all around
> A


I wonder if Pakistan did acquire some sort of ToT on ly-80 given integrstion and broad order among all three services(unlikely since army has poor track record)

Still i would prefer they found a quad pack system. Will 16 be enough


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## Akh1112

Falcon26 said:


> _Additional key details about these ships @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz _
> 
> 
> *A Look At PN MILGEM/JINNAH Program*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the the high-resolution image of MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvette is examined, which was prepared and shared in an electronic environment at the ceremony, it can be immediately noticed that it differs in external appearance from both ADA Class Corvettes and İSTİF Class Frigates of the Turkish Navy. *In terms of technical features the JINNAH Class Corvettes can be located between the 2,400-ton (at full load) ADA Class Corvettes (have an overall length of 99.56m, an overall beam of 14.4m and draught of 3.89m) and the 3,000-ton İSTİF Class Frigates (have an overall length of 113.2m, an overall beam of 14.42m and draught of 4,05).* According to PN MILGEM brochure issued by ASFAT recently the JINNAH Class Corvettes with mono-hull, displacement-type hull form, will have an overall length of 108.8 metres, an overall beam of 14.8m, draught of 4.1m, maximum speed of 26+ knots and displacement of 2.988 tons. As in the İSTİF Class, *JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with Leonardo DRS (Oto Melara) 76 mm Super Rapid gun* (it is claimed that the order was placed for 4 guns in the second half of 2019, but according to the information we have obtained the contract was signed only for one ship). *The Fire Control System of the 76 mm Super Rapid gun will be an Aselsan product, and the required Fire Control Radars will also be provided by Aselsan* (the product in the image is similar to the AKR-D Block-1, one is right above the bridge and the other is right behind the GÖKDENİZ CIWS placed at the stern of the ship.)
> 
> *Just behind the bow gun there is a 16-cell Vertical Launching System (VLS) for the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System. *The HHQ-16/LY-80N, which is a medium-range, semi-active radar-guided air defense missile system from China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CASC), is also used at the Type 054A/P Frigates that are under construction in China for the Pakistan Navy (together with 32-cell VLS). *The HHQ-16, with a maximum range of 42 km (HHQ-16B, the upgraded version of the missile has a range of 70 km), *has a warhead weighing 70 kg and is claimed to be capable of intercepting targets at altitudes between 15 m and 18 km. Pakistan Land Forces, on the other hand, ordered 6 batteries from the land-based version of the HHQ-16 System (HQ-16A/LY-80) for US$ 373 million (another source indicates as US$ 226 million for 3 batteries) and 8 IBIS-150 Radars (HQ-16A/LY-80 Air Surveillance Radar) for US$ 40 million and inducted into service in March 2017. One of the HQ-16A/LY-80 batteries is deployed in Karachi. On board the JINNAH Class there are two Type 345 (NATO code MR-90 Front Dome) Illuminating Radars which are part of the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System, the first one is located right in front of the mast and the other one is located just behind the funnel.
> 
> *MILGEM-J/JINNAH Class Corvettes will also contain 6 Harbah Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM/LACM projected to reach a range of 450 km to 750 km) that are to be placed at a 90 degree angle with each other and hidden behind the lid *(used for reducing the RCS of the ship) at the port and starboard at the pool section right behind the mainmast, two 25 mm Remote Controlled Stabilized Naval Guns (STOP) manufactured by Aselsan (at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse) and again two Mk32 two-barrel surface vessel torpedo tubes in 324 mm diameter and to be placed at the stationary port and starboard deckhouse.
> 
> The JINNAH Class Corvettes will incorporate several critical sub-systems of the ADA Class Corvette. *Some of them are as follows: Havelsan’s GENESİS ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS), Aselsan’s SMART-S Mk2 Three Dimensional Naval Search Radar (3BAR), ALPER Navigation and LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) Radar, ARES-2N Radar ESM (AREAS-2NC Radar Electronic Attack System is also expected to be deployed at these ships), Laser Warning System, HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System and Inertial Navigation System (LN-270 INS/GPS), Integrated Platform Control and Monitoring System manufactured by YALTES and METEKSAN Defence’s YAKAMOS Hull Mounted Sonar System. *The JINNAH Class Corvettes will also be equipped with the Naval Information Exchange System (NIXS) developed by MilSOFT for the PN and the indigenous data-link system “Link Green”. *The Pakistan Naval Forces established a communication infrastructure named RedLine across the country to enable communication among NIXS equipped platforms *




They will NOT use HQ-16 and H/AJK-16. I cant really be bothered to go in depth, scroll through Quwa a bit and you'll see my article on it.


ziaulislam said:


> I wonder if Pakistan did acquire some sort of ToT on ly-80 given integrstion and broad order among all three services(unlikely since army has poor track record)
> 
> Still i would prefer they found a quad pack system. Will 16 be enough


its not HQ-16.


Itll be CAMM-ER.

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## waz

Tipu7 said:


> *there is a high supersonic anti ship missile in development. Remember?



Ah yes of course. It will be interesting to know what stage we are at with this. Will it be in time for the Milgems? The 054A's have their own version.


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## Areesh

Akh1112 said:


> its not HQ-16.
> 
> 
> Itll be CAMM-ER.



Are you sure? Source for this?


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## waz

Akh1112 said:


> Itll be CAMM-ER.











CAMM-ER missile completes trials milestone


MBDA say it has successfully completed a series of trials of the CAMM-ER air defence missile, validating the high-performance of the system.




ukdefencejournal.org.uk


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## Akh1112

Areesh said:


> Are you sure? Source for this?



Im the source, 

aside, do a bit of digging. Ive talked about it in the past using information out there. ill follow this comment up with an effort post clearing up misconceptions re this design in a few hours and then tag you.

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## Areesh

Akh1112 said:


> Im the source,
> 
> aside, do a bit of digging. Ive talked about it in the past using information out there. ill follow this comment up with an effort post clearing up misconceptions re this design in a few hours and then tag you.



I hope its true. Would be a great upgrade of PN


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## Basel

waz said:


> CAMM-ER missile completes trials milestone
> 
> 
> MBDA say it has successfully completed a series of trials of the CAMM-ER air defence missile, validating the high-performance of the system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ukdefencejournal.org.uk

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## MIRauf

Awan68 said:


> Question, does a 6 missile load out mean that is the ships total capacity or additonal missiles are carried as reserve ammo?


Back at base as it requires crane to lift and bring it closer to containers for the reload. Unless part of Flotilla and Supply ship has the crane to reload but can be dicey out in open ocean due to the ocean state ( rough waves etc. )

"PS: Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Cliff Notes."

-- .. .-.


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## AKINCI



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## Turcici Imperium

I read that construction of third PN-Milgem would also start today

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## ACE OF HEARTS

Turcici Imperium said:


> I read that construction of third PN-Milgem would also start today


This Stealthy Radar Mast is amazing

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## Muhammad Omar

Launch and Steel welding of 3rd MILGEM Corvette for Pakistan Navy

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## Sulman Badshah

Turcici Imperium said:


> I read that construction of third PN-Milgem would also start today


3rd one started couple of months ago in Karachi i guess , Turkish defence minister was there as well


Muhammad Omar said:


> Launch and Steel welding of 3rd MILGEM Corvette for Pakistan Navy
> 
> View attachment 709683
> View attachment 709684
> View attachment 709685
> View attachment 709686
> View attachment 709687
> View attachment 709688


Third one was launched in October in Karachi Shipyard








Construction of 3rd Turkish warship for Pakistan starts


Turkey to share defense industry knowledge with Pakistan, says Turkish defense chief - Anadolu Agency




www.aa.com.tr


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## Turcici Imperium

Sulman Badshah said:


> 3rd one started couple of months ago in Karachi i guess , Turkish defence minister was there as well


All i can say is that, both head of SSB, MoD of Turkey, president of Turkey said that it is to be the start of the construction of PN-Milgem 3, and then both president and Pakistani ambassador went to the first part of PN-Milgem 3 and made first welding together there on TV.

So appereantly previous news were fake news.

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## Sulman Badshah

Turcici Imperium said:


> All i can say is that, both head of SSB, MoD of Turkey, president of Turkey said that it is to be the start of the construction of PN-Milgem 3, and then both president and Pakistani ambassador went to the first part of PN-Milgem 3 and made first welding together there on TV.
> 
> So appereantly previous news were fake news.


There might be numbering confusion .. It is supposed to make 2 in Turkey and 2 in Pakistan .. This one should be 3rd overall Corvette

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## aziqbal

can anyone identify this warship under construction?


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## xbat

aziqbal said:


> can anyone identify this warship under construction?
> 
> View attachment 709730


must be another module of the PN ship on left


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## aziqbal

xbat said:


> must be another module of the PN ship on left



that is not a module its a entire ship


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## dBSPL

aziqbal said:


> can anyone identify this warship under construction?
> 
> View attachment 709730



The ship on the left of the photo is the first PN-NationalShip (aka MILGEM Jinnah Class) and the other right (which you are asking) is the third PN ship will be in its class that Its first welding ceremony was held today. The ship can be seen with its prow and bulb in the middle, F515 TCG Istanbul frigate, which is launched today. Also the ship seen in the right-background is the ADA class MILGEM corvette.

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## xbat

"that is not a module its a entire ship "

no its not

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## The Eagle

aziqbal said:


> can anyone identify this warship under construction?
> 
> View attachment 709730



The one being launched today for PN.... picture from manufacturing dock angle...





and picture from back of the stage...jetty






And, the following one seems to be previously launched PN Milgem which is currently under construction...









Or wait a minute; shall we treat the hull seen in the last picture as a ready piece for 3rd PN Milgem?

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## aziqbal

I am not talking about the module here 

maybe I miss-posted the last photo 

I am talking about this ship? the one with the Turkish flag


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## aziqbal

dBSPL said:


> The ship on the left of the photo is the first PN-NationalShip (aka MILGEM Jinnah Class) and the other right (which you are asking) is the third PN ship will be in its class that Its first welding ceremony was held today. The ship can be seen with its prow and bulb in the middle, F515 TCG Istanbul frigate, which is launched today. Also the ship seen in the right-background is the ADA class MILGEM corvette.



I dont agree because when Pakistan started the 1st Jinnah class it was referred to as the 3rd MILGEM

this can only happen if the keel for the second was already laid in Istanbul as 1st one is clearly progressing

so I doubt this is the 4th


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## dBSPL

aziqbal said:


> I dont agree because when Pakistan started the 1st Jinnah class it was referred to as the 3rd MILGEM
> 
> this can only happen if the keel for the second was already laid in Istanbul as 1st one is clearly progressing
> 
> so I doubt this is the 4th



Azizim, How many first welding ceremonies have been held for PN-Milgems to date? first in Pendik Shipyard, then in Karachi. If there was another ceremony held between, I apologize for my ignorance. Today It was* announced as the 3rd Pakistan corvette first welding* in the ceremony area, after then the Pakistani ambasador and represantatives were invited to the stage.

I do not know in what order the ships will be put into service. There are many sub-work areas related to construction and equipment activities that we haven't mentioned here. Perhaps the ships built in Pendik will be launched first. In that case, the 3rd hull built in Karachi could be the third ship will be launch, even if it was the second ship as first welding-cutting ceremony.





 1:10:45 It is announced here as the 3rd first welding ceremony

edit: I assume you know that 2 ships will be built in Istanbul and 2 in Karachi. Pakistan shipyard will have incorporated Milgem technical infrastructure to a large extent with the 4th ship.

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## aziqbal

dBSPL said:


> Azizim, How many first welding ceremonies have been held for PN-Milgems to date? first in Pendik Shipyard, then in Karachi. If there was another ceremony held between, I apologize for my ignorance. Today It was* announced as the 3rd Pakistan corvette first welding* in the ceremony area, after then the Pakistani ambasador and represantatives were invited to the stage.
> 
> I do not know in what order the ships will be put into service. There are many sub-work areas related to construction and equipment activities that we haven't mentioned here. Perhaps the ships built in Pendik will be launched first. In that case, the 3rd hull built in Karachi could be the third ship will be launch, even if it was the second ship as first welding-cutting ceremony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1:10:45 It is announced here as the 3rd first welding ceremony



maybe I am wrong here is my list 

1st MILGEM keel laid 4th June 2020 in Turkey steel cut was done 30th Sep 2019 

2nd MILGEM Keel laid 25th October 2020 and steel cut was 10th June 2020 in Pakistan HOWEVER they call this the 3rd 

media report it as 3rd so means 2nd keel was already laid before Oct 2020 

I have not found any info on 3rd steel cut or keel laying in Turkey 

anyone see any more info?


dBSPL said:


> 1:10:45 It is announced here as the 3rd first welding ceremony



thank you ! so all previous news about 3rd was just not informed media as usual, poor journalism 

so this one where Erdogan was welding is the 3rd and the other one on the left is the 1st with the 2nd under construction in Pakistan 

the 6 month timeline also makes sense 

we expect then the 4th to start end of 2021 in Karachi

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## dBSPL

aziqbal said:


> thank you ! so all previous news about 3rd was just not informed media as usual, poor journalism
> 
> so this one where Erdogan was welding is the 3rd and the other one on the left is the 1st with the 2nd under construction in Pakistan
> 
> the 6 month timeline also makes sense
> 
> we expect then the 4th to start end of 2021 in Karachi



Yes, the last welding ceremony(for 4th hull) will be in Karachi. Then, first launch ceramonies will follow to that.

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## eagleeye

1st and 3rd ship will be build in Turkiye and 2nd and 4 th will be build in pakistan. We will see the welding ceremony(for 4th hull) in Karachi after this.

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## syed_yusuf

Why Pakistan navy choose to modify base line ada class for its use why they did not just go for I CLASS frigate . It would have saved lots of time

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> The one being launched today for PN.... picture from manufacturing dock angle...
> 
> View attachment 709757
> 
> and picture from back of the stage...jetty
> View attachment 709759
> 
> 
> 
> And, the following one seems to be previously launched PN Milgem which is currently under construction...
> View attachment 709758
> 
> View attachment 709760
> 
> 
> Or wait a minute; shall we treat the hull seen in the last picture as a ready piece for 3rd PN Milgem?


So basically all four MILGEM we ordered are under construction. Two in Pakistan and two in Turkey.


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## aziqbal

yes so basically within 6 months we have seen the start of 3 out of the 4 warships

this is amazing speed as Turkey took 15 years to build 4 x Ada Class

the worry was this was going to also be a slow and painful process

but looks like Turkey has mastered this art now

I predict before June 2021 which is exactly 1 year since the 1st started we will have all 4 under construction

not to mention that the 4 x Type 054A/P from China are also progressing at break neck speed

its good the Type 054A/P will all be built in China as this would have seriously slowed down if Karachi tried to build them 

guys hold on this ride is going to be great

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## Jinn Baba

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353055796649578496

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## HAIDER

*Erdogan launches welding of 3rd Milgem warship being constructed for Pakistan Navy*
APPPublished January 24, 2021Updated about 9 hours ago
Facebook Count
Twitter Share
 
73





Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan attends the launching ceremony of the welding of the third ship to be constructed for Pakistan Navy under MILGEM project. — Photo courtesy: Radio Pak
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday launched the welding of the third ship to be constructed for Pakistan Navy under the Milgem project.
Ambassador of Pakistan in Turkey Mohammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi also accompanied Erdogan at the groundbreaking of the third out of a total of four Milgem Ada-class corvette for Pakistan Navy in Istanbul.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353055796649578496
Speaker of the Turkish Grand National Assembly Mustafa Sentop, Minister of National Defence of Turkey Hulusi Akar, Chief of Turkish General Staff General Yasar Guler, Commander of Turkish Naval Forces Admiral Adnan Ozbal, and other dignitaries attended the ceremony that also marked the launching of I-class Turkish Navy 'Istanbul' frigate.
Speaking at the ceremony, President Erdogan said Pakistan is "our brotherly country with whom Turkey enjoys excellent relations".
He underscored that the defence collaboration for the construction of Milgem class warships was another milestone in Turkey-Pakistan defence ties.
*Read:* _Pakistan Navy begins constructing modern warships in coordination with Turkey_
President Erdogan said both Pakistan and Turkey were living in difficult geographical regions and both countries were facing similar challenges. He affirmed that Turkey would continue to support friendly and allied countries in the defence field.
Referring to his visit to Pakistan last year, President Erdogan said the two countries signed a Strategic Economic Framework that would provide the necessary institutional framework to further enhance bilateral ties.
All Turkish dignitaries who spoke at the ceremony hailed the Pakistan-Turkish brotherly relations and reiterated Turkey's support to Pakistan on core issues of its national interest.
The contract for four Milgem class corvettes for Pakistan Navy with concurrent Transfer of Technology (ToT) was signed with ASFAT Inc, a Turkish state-owned Defence contractor firm in 2018.
According to the plan, two corvettes will be built in Turkey and the other two will be built in Pakistan, at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) — Pakistan Navy's specialised shipbuilding division — that also involves technology transfer.
Milgem vessels are 99 metres long with a displacement capacity of 2,400 tonnes and can move at a speed of 29 nautical miles.
These anti-submarine combat frigates, which can be hidden from the radar, will further enhance the defence capability of the Pakistan Navy.

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## NAS & GOA

Alhamdulillah.... The project is proceeding at good pace.... I believe the milgem project must fully complete by 2025 and act as keystone for kick-starting the construction of jinnah class project

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## Cool_Soldier

Which project will be named as Jinnah Class ?
Milgem OR something else?


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## waz

Cool_Soldier said:


> Which project will be named as Jinnah Class ?
> Milgem OR something else?



Jinnah class is something else and bigger ships, in the class of the 054A or larger. They may use the Milgem as a base design point.

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## syed_yusuf

waz said:


> Jinnah class is something else and bigger ships, in the class of the 054A or larger. They may use the Milgem as a base design point.


So we have to wait to find the name of this extended ada class for PN. just wondering why pn went for redesign ada class instead of going for I CLASS Frigate direct. That would have a better investment .. ?

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## Goritoes

syed_yusuf said:


> So we have to wait to find the name of this extended ada class for PN. just wondering why pn went for redesign ada class instead of going for I CLASS Frigate direct. That would have a better investment .. ?



Jinnah Class would be a hybrid of I-Class and Ada Class, but PN will have their own inputs which they learned from F-22's and Type 54's. Plus the Jinnah class will see an extended order from PN after this order ends.

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## ghazi52

*Director General Public Relations - Navy*

Welding Ceremony of third ship of MILGEM class corvettes for Pakistan Navy held at Istanbul Naval Shipyard (INSY), Turkey. President of Republic of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Ambassador of Pakistan to Turkey, H.E Muhammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi graced the occasion and jointly kicked off the project by performing the block welding.

While addressing the ceremony, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan highlighted deep rooted relationships between the two strategically aligned nations. He underscored the defense collaboration for construction of MILGEM class warships as major milestone in Pak-Turkey defense ties. The President also underlined the Strategic Economic Framework signed between the two countries as step to enhance bilateral ties and reaffirmed Turkey's support in the field of defense.

The MILGEM class corvettes will be state-of-the-art surface platforms equipped with modern surface, subsurface and anti-air weapons & sensors integrated through a network centric Combat Management System. MILGEM corvettes will significantly enhance maritime defence and deterrence capabilities of Pakistan Navy. These ships will augment Pakistan Navy’s kinetic punch and will significantly contribute in maintaining peace, stability and balance of power in Indian Ocean Region.

The contract for four MILGEM class corvettes for Pakistan Navy with concurrent Transfer of Technology was signed with ASFAT Inc, a Turkish state owned Defence contractor in 2018. The Transfer of Technology entails construction of two corvettes at Istanbul Naval Shipyard while another two at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW).

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## ghazi52

*Director General Public Relations - Navy*

Welding Ceremony of third ship of MILGEM class corvettes for Pakistan Navy held at Istanbul Naval Shipyard (INSY), Turkey. President of Republic of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Ambassador of Pakistan to Turkey, H.E Muhammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi graced the occasion and jointly kicked off the project by performing the block welding.

While addressing the ceremony, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan highlighted deep rooted relationships between the two strategically aligned nations. He underscored the defense collaboration for construction of MILGEM class warships as major milestone in Pak-Turkey defense ties. The President also underlined the Strategic Economic Framework signed between the two countries as step to enhance bilateral ties and reaffirmed Turkey's support in the field of defense.

The MILGEM class corvettes will be state-of-the-art surface platforms equipped with modern surface, subsurface and anti-air weapons & sensors integrated through a network centric Combat Management System. MILGEM corvettes will significantly enhance maritime defence and deterrence capabilities of Pakistan Navy. These ships will augment Pakistan Navy’s kinetic punch and will significantly contribute in maintaining peace, stability and balance of power in Indian Ocean Region.

The contract for four MILGEM class corvettes for Pakistan Navy with concurrent Transfer of Technology was signed with ASFAT Inc, a Turkish state owned Defence contractor in 2018. The Transfer of Technology entails construction of two corvettes at Istanbul Naval Shipyard while another two at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW).

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## Crystal-Clear

HAIDER said:


> *Erdogan launches welding of 3rd Milgem warship being constructed for Pakistan Navy*
> APPPublished January 24, 2021Updated about 9 hours ago
> Facebook Count
> Twitter Share
> 
> 73
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan attends the launching ceremony of the welding of the third ship to be constructed for Pakistan Navy under MILGEM project. — Photo courtesy: Radio Pak
> Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday launched the welding of the third ship to be constructed for Pakistan Navy under the Milgem project.
> Ambassador of Pakistan in Turkey Mohammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi also accompanied Erdogan at the groundbreaking of the third out of a total of four Milgem Ada-class corvette for Pakistan Navy in Istanbul.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353055796649578496
> Speaker of the Turkish Grand National Assembly Mustafa Sentop, Minister of National Defence of Turkey Hulusi Akar, Chief of Turkish General Staff General Yasar Guler, Commander of Turkish Naval Forces Admiral Adnan Ozbal, and other dignitaries attended the ceremony that also marked the launching of I-class Turkish Navy 'Istanbul' frigate.
> Speaking at the ceremony, President Erdogan said Pakistan is "our brotherly country with whom Turkey enjoys excellent relations".
> He underscored that the defence collaboration for the construction of Milgem class warships was another milestone in Turkey-Pakistan defence ties.
> *Read:* _Pakistan Navy begins constructing modern warships in coordination with Turkey_
> President Erdogan said both Pakistan and Turkey were living in difficult geographical regions and both countries were facing similar challenges. He affirmed that Turkey would continue to support friendly and allied countries in the defence field.
> Referring to his visit to Pakistan last year, President Erdogan said the two countries signed a Strategic Economic Framework that would provide the necessary institutional framework to further enhance bilateral ties.
> All Turkish dignitaries who spoke at the ceremony hailed the Pakistan-Turkish brotherly relations and reiterated Turkey's support to Pakistan on core issues of its national interest.
> The contract for four Milgem class corvettes for Pakistan Navy with concurrent Transfer of Technology (ToT) was signed with ASFAT Inc, a Turkish state-owned Defence contractor firm in 2018.
> According to the plan, two corvettes will be built in Turkey and the other two will be built in Pakistan, at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) — Pakistan Navy's specialised shipbuilding division — that also involves technology transfer.
> Milgem vessels are 99 metres long with a displacement capacity of 2,400 tonnes and can move at a speed of 29 nautical miles.
> These anti-submarine combat frigates, which can be hidden from the radar, will further enhance the defence capability of the Pakistan Navy.


is it milgem of ada class ?😞😞


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Good initiative in right direction


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## Cool_Soldier

good addition indeed
Milgem Class ships
Type 54 P
and Then Jinnah Class which still need to be finalized.


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> So basically all four MILGEM we ordered are under construction. Two in Pakistan and two in Turkey.



Not exactly bro. 2 under construction in Turkey while the 1 is under construction in Pakistan. 4th Ship first wielding announcement will take some time from Pakistan.

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## MIRauf

Question is that under the new CNS, will he still go for the Surface Fleet Route or diverge future undecided platforms to be Sub-Surface.

I would say the Jinnah class may or may not be, but then again it's just my opinion without any inside knowledge.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Cliff Notes."

-- .. .-.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## syed_yusuf

Goritoes said:


> Jinnah Class would be a hybrid of I-Class and Ada Class, but PN will have their own inputs which they learned from F-22's and Type 54's. Plus the Jinnah class will see an extended order from PN after this order ends.


Isn't the hybrid of ada and I class is what PN is getting ?

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## Goritoes

syed_yusuf said:


> Isn't the hybrid of ada and I class is what PN is getting ?



Not the first 3, they are Ada with VLS afaik

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## imranyounus

well it doesn't make much sense if Jinnah class is an extended version of Milgem. We are already getting it as per our specifications. an VSL and local ASM or LACM. 

Further when PN is getting Type 54 why go for a similar size ship from another source instead of customization of same.

On both above ground I believe that Jinnah class will most likely be even bigger some thing in TF 2000 class or an extended version of I class in similar size to TF 2000.

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## khanasifm

Two Jinnah class frigates ? ??









پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر | پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر | By 92 News HD Plus | Facebook


280K views, 9K likes, 835 loves, 145 comments, 1.9K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from 92 News HD Plus: پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر




fb.watch

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Two Jinnah class frigates ? ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر | پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر | By 92 News HD Plus | Facebook
> 
> 
> 280K views, 9K likes, 835 loves, 145 comments, 1.9K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from 92 News HD Plus: پاکستان کے ساتھ دوستی کو ایک قدم آگے بڑا رہے ہیں، ترک صدر
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch


So they've started the design work for 2 Jinnah-class frigates?

Does that mean the PN MILGEM program is now 6 ships (4 corvettes + 2 frigates)?

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So they've started the design work for 2 Jinnah-class frigates?
> 
> Does that mean the PN MILGEM program is now 6 ships (4 corvettes + 2 frigates)?


That is what the news anchor said.


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## aziqbal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So they've started the design work for 2 Jinnah-class frigates?
> 
> Does that mean the PN MILGEM program is now 6 ships (4 corvettes + 2 frigates)?



Pakistani journalism

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So they've started the design work for 2 Jinnah-class frigates?
> 
> Does that mean the PN MILGEM program is now 6 ships (4 corvettes + 2 frigates)?


Report seems pretty clear
4 coverttes and 2 frigates that will probably be a form of istanbul class and will be inhouse designed for IP rights and experience 

Will such an experience be thrown away or will navy keep on slowly building upon

We should never import any more ships..we should build upon jinnah class
These 8 ships+ 8 subs(milgem t54) are enough for stop gap
Future should be inhouse/JVs


aziqbal said:


> Pakistani journalism


Possible

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aziqbal said:


> Pakistani journalism


True, but this report seems a little too logical for typical Pakistani news reports.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True, but this report seems a little too logical for typical Pakistani news reports.


The report as far as I have understood is related to the design phase of Jinnah class Frigate. Maybe the lead ship may be built either in Turkey or under Turkish guidence atPN shipyard.
A

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True, but this report seems a little too logical for typical Pakistani news reports.


i think you're reading too far into it.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> i think you're reading too far into it.


With the PN? Never.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So they've started the design work for 2 Jinnah-class frigates?
> 
> Does that mean the PN MILGEM program is now 6 ships (4 corvettes + 2 frigates)?


Ofcourse What comes after Milgems are Jinnah. 
If Jinnah is further evolution of Milgem, then starting the Jinnah production right after Milgem make complete sense. 

Now I am thinking again, 
How Jinnah class factors in PN? Further additions to surface fleet (six heavy tonnage vessels)? Or replacement of Zulfiqar class (highly unlikely)?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Ofcourse What comes after Milgems are Jinnah.
> If Jinnah is further evolution of Milgem, then starting the Jinnah production right after Milgem make complete sense.
> 
> Now I am thinking again,
> How Jinnah class factors in PN? Further additions to surface fleet (six heavy tonnage vessels)? Or replacement of Zulfiqar class (highly unlikely)?


We both read from a reliable member that the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' thing may not matter as much, at least in the sense of getting additional OPVs from Damen Shipyards.

So, the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' are still either OPVs, or the PN is changing its plans at a deeper level. If the PN is changing its plans, then I don't think the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' part matters much anymore; we'll have to wait for new info.

I suspect the PN is simply moving to a fleet of at least 12 ships that can fully deliver on AShW, ASW, and AAW (via VLS).

It currently has 8 such ships in the pipeline via the Type 054A/P and the MILGEM corvettes. So, it may be planning for 4 Jinnah-class frigates to complete this fleet goal. But overall, the 12 ships will add to the 4 F-22P and 2 Damen OPVs, hence giving the PN a total of 18 2,000+ ton ships (of which 12 are fully capable, and 6 are AShW + ASW capable).

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We both read from a reliable member that the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' thing may not matter as much, at least in the sense of getting additional OPVs from Damen Shipyards.
> 
> So, the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' are still either OPVs, or the PN is changing its plans at a deeper level. If the PN is changing its plans, then I don't think the 'six heavy tonnage vessels' part matters much anymore; we'll have to wait for new info.
> 
> I suspect the PN is simply moving to a fleet of at least 12 ships that can fully deliver on AShW, ASW, and AAW (via VLS).
> 
> It currently has 8 such ships in the pipeline via the Type 054A/P and the MILGEM corvettes. So, it may be planning for 4 Jinnah-class frigates to complete this fleet goal. But overall, the 12 ships will add to the 4 F-22P and 2 Damen OPVs, hence giving the PN a total of 18 2,000+ ton ships (of which 12 are fully capable, and 6 are AShW + ASW capable).




My concern is that it seems for hull numbers we are going to start looking good, but the question in war will be how many we can effectively field in combat? We will need to train a massive number of men now, can we do this? Do we have refit facilities for all these ships? What about modern helicopters? We simply do not have enough. We will need more replenshiment vessals, we only got one new one from Turkey, we need a follow on from that.

Ship numbers are great, but useless if most of them remain in port

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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> *Ship numbers are great, but useless if most of them remain in port*



Hi,

That sound very eager of you---.

Has this situation occurred in any other military branch regarding number of men to equipment---?

*This is a type of question that would would have been asked by Eliahu Cohen to an unsuspecting high ranking Syrian officer at the Golan Heights to splurge out the details of the number of trained staff to man all the ships---in a fit of zealous nationalism.*

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## ZAMURD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> With the PN? Never.


Bilal Bhai why Naval base at gwadar is not complete like ormara base???


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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That sound very eager of you---.
> 
> Has this situation occurred in any other military branch regarding number of men to equipment---?
> 
> *This is a type of question that would would have been asked by Eliahu Cohen to an unsuspecting high ranking Syrian officer at the Golan Heights to splurge out the details of the number of trained staff to man all the ships---in a fit of zealous nationalism.*



Unsure of the point (if any) you are trying to make here?

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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure of the point (if any) you are trying to make here?



Hi,

Have you read the history of Eliahu Cohen---.

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## khanasifm

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure of the point (if any) you are trying to make here?



Few things about pn version of ada pn version is longer weigh more and can stay at Sea for 20 days vs Turkish Ada the follow specs are not correct of o am
Not mistake.


The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.

correction sorry it went from 10 days for Turkish 2300 Tons to 15 days at sea plus 2960 tons ship for pak navy also pn ship is 108 meter vs Turkish 99 meter

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> Few things about pn version of ada pn version is longer weigh more and can stay at Sea for 20 days vs Turkish Ada the follow specs are not correct of o am
> Not mistake.
> 
> 
> The corvettes, which can cruise uninterrupted for 15 days, will be 99.56 meters long and 14.42 meters wide with a maximum speed of 26 knots.
> 
> correction sorry it went from 10 days for Turkish 2300 Tons to 15 days at sea plus 2960 tons ship for pak navy frigate or not corvette .
> ,also pn ship is 108 meter vs Turkish 99 meter

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 712053
> 
> View attachment 712054
> View attachment 712054


you have mistakenly attached same page twice rather to attached the second page, so if it is not a hassle for you kindly attach 2nd page and also mention magazine name & month of issue

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

The components such as engine, radar, gun which are imported from Europe are delayed by COVID.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Seems like Milgem Project will complete on Time
3 Ships now on the construction Yard , now that is some progress

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## iLION12345_1

imranyounus said:


> well it doesn't make much sense if Jinnah class is an extended version of Milgem. We are already getting it as per our specifications. an VSL and local ASM or LACM.
> 
> Further when PN is getting Type 54 why go for a similar size ship from another source instead of customization of same.
> 
> On both above ground I believe that Jinnah class will most likely be even bigger some thing in TF 2000 class or an extended version of I class in similar size to TF 2000.


It’s good to not put all your eggs in one basket, one may have capabilities the other one doesn’t, secondly Jinnah class can be produced locally, unlike Type 54 or 53. This also means we can get more ships in a shorter amount of time. It may not seem like it but Jinnah class is a step towards indigenization.

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## NAS & GOA

Jinnah class is a keystone project, wherein for the first time, u will have ur own design & KOM (kit of material). This would be a quantum leap for future production of one or many types of ships; affording commonality of construction techNology and Inventory.... 
Lot many other cost benefits in long term scenario
Moreover, the boost that shipbuilding industry would accrue is unimaginable... InshaaAllah

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## The Eagle

_How about if we merge related threads created separately due to launching/steel cutting/first welding ceremony?_
_
That will help keep discussion at one place and easy to track and discuss._

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## T-SaGe

I know it has nothing to do with the subject. But this great photo could cause a faint smile on the faces of my Pakistani friends while thinking PN-Milgem. I hope it won't be considered as spam.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

T-SaGe said:


> I know it has nothing to do with the subject. But this great photo could cause a faint smile on the faces of my Pakistani friends while thinking PN-Milgem. I hope it won't be considered as spam.



Does Turkey have license from the US to export RIM-116 used on Ada class?


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


>



If HQ-18 or ly80N than why not HQ-10 as well ?? Instead of gun and why not Chinese why Turkish ?

some questions

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## Tipu7

Weapon package of PN Milgems is not finalized yet. (or atleast not known yet)
If requisite options are available, PN will naturally opt for Western solutions. Be it CIWS, be it SAMs.


khanasifm said:


> View attachment 724668
> 
> 
> 
> If HQ-18 or ly80N than why not HQ-10 as well ?? Instead of gun and why not Chinese why Turkish ?
> 
> some questions

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Easily the most technologically advanced warship in PN

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Does Turkey have license from the US to export RIM-116 used on Ada class?




RIM 116 will not be available on PN Milgem anyway.

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## khanasifm

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> RIM 116 will not be available on PN Milgem anyway.



If pn can opt for GQ-16/ly80 than it can also opt for HQ-10 which are equivalent of rim116  gun is ok too


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## ziya

havelsan advent sys on milgem/PN milgem

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## araz

ziya said:


> havelsan advent sys on milgem/PN milgem
> View attachment 725896
> View attachment 725897


Where have you been? Have missed your posts

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## LightUponLight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, the first 4 Hangor (II) subs are due 2022-2023, the next 4 (built at KSEW) by 2028. So the PN is actually scheduled to get the Type 054As, Ada and Hangor (II) all in the same timeframe (much like the PAF did with Erieye, IL-78, ZDK03, Block-52, MLU, etc).



Can you provide a very brief summary of what the PN will have by 2030 given these new acquisitions, please? 

How do these Turkish corvettes fit into the PN doctrine? 

It's amazing to see the PN modernize and become a capable force in its own right. I sincerely hope they make the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee a proper command post in the future (populated by members of any of the three services.)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LightUponLight said:


> Can you provide a very brief summary of what the PN will have by 2030 given these new acquisitions, please?
> 
> How do these Turkish corvettes fit into the PN doctrine?
> 
> It's amazing to see the PN modernize and become a capable force in its own right. I sincerely hope they make the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee a proper command post in the future (populated by members of any of the three services.)


4 Type 054A/P frigates
4 MILGEM Corvettes
4 F-22P (existing)
2 OPV 1900

8 Hangor SSP
3 Agosta 90B SSP

Unknown no. of shallow-water attack (SWAT) submarines, UAVs, helicopters, and E190/Lineage-based LRMPA.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 4 Type 054A/P frigates
> 4 MILGEM Corvettes
> 4 F-22P (existing)
> 2 OPV 1900
> 
> 8 Hangor SSP
> 3 Agosta 90B SSP
> 
> Unknown no. of shallow-water attack (SWAT) submarines, UAVs, helicopters, and E190/Lineage-based LRMPA.



6 additional heavy unknown type per cns close to be ordered bringing. Total of > 2000 ton class to 20

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 4 Type 054A/P frigates
> 4 MILGEM Corvettes
> 4 F-22P (existing)
> 2 OPV 1900
> 
> 8 Hangor SSP
> 3 Agosta 90B SSP
> 
> Unknown no. of shallow-water attack (SWAT) submarines, UAVs, helicopters, and E190/Lineage-based LRMPA.



Surely Jinnah class of at least 3 ships will be ready by then too no?

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## HAIDER

Engine used in Pak corvette .








LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Gas Power


GE's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.




www.ge.com

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Surely Jinnah class of at least 3 ships will be ready by then too no?


I think 2030 may be too short of a timeline for those ships.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think 2030 may be too short of a timeline for those ships.



Yes, see the point, but surely if design phase is now and Turks are half way through there end and enticipating delivery in 2025, but then both Karachi and Turkey should have capacity for new builds? If so I think 2025-2030 is generous enough for at least another 2 ships? I find it hard to believe current MILGEM/Chinese projects will keep the yards busy for the next 9 years....

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## Tank131

khanasifm said:


> If pn can opt for GQ-16/ly80 than it can also opt for HQ-10 which are equivalent of rim116  gun is ok too


Frankly i think a Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10 may have been the better way to go.

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## xbat



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## CHI RULES

Tank131 said:


> Frankly i think a Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10 may have been the better way to go.


PN modern ships though have better capabilities till look to have shortage of ammo i.e Milgem possibly have 12-14 VLS for LY80 but lack short range AD some what i.e not having short range SAM like HQ10 meanwhile perhaps both Milgem and Type 54 have canisters for 6 ASHM/land attack missiles which also look to be much lesser at least the type 54 should have 8-10 ASHM/land attack missiles on it with short range HQ10 availability. Meanwhile PN lighter Azmat class/FACs only have CIWS for AD purposes. Even F22P frigates require much better AD along with sole OHP. Even latest inducted OPVs perhaps have also not armed so far as no news so so far came out.


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## Scorpiooo

Is there chance of new helicopters for these ships from turkey or Europe or PN will keep using Chinese Z9s even on them


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## eagleeye

Picture with better quality

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## mdmm

Members.
Kindly update this forum on above topics, regarding Turkey manufacturing Ships, T-129 and Drones, by names of the products, please ??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

eagleeye said:


> Picture with better quality


The current deal is for 4 corvettes (which you see above) and 2 frigates. It'll be interesting to see how the frigates turn out. Japan's Mogami-class frigate looks like a really nice design.

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## T-SaGe

eagleeye said:


> Picture with better quality


Pakistan Navy's Milgem-corvette program represents its pinnacle which was the dream of Turkish defense industry enthusiasts for years. It will be one of the most deterrent and cost effective platform in its class. It is also a source of happiness for us that Turkish companies can play a role in the development of Pakistan's navy.

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## Aamir Hussain

As far as I know Jinnah Class is the definitive shape of Milgem Program as opted by Pakistan. All the four corvettes will be configure to Jinnah class specs. All four boats will be Jinnah Class boats with VLS, HQ-16, Harbah or Supersonic ASCM, Korkut CIWS.

I was not aware of any 2 x Frigate program with the Turks

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## khanasifm

xbat said:


> View attachment 735468








It’s hard to tell which system is on the side








Analysis: Weapons and Turrets of Turkish Industry for Naval Platforms


The Turkish defence industry offers high-technology and cost efficient solutions in compliance with NATO standards to navies in the world, notably the Turkish Naval Forces, in need of various types of sea platforms. The




www.navyrecognition.com





It is 12.7 STAMP






Karachi Shipyard Lays Keel Of Pakistan Navy’ Second MILGEM-Class Corvette - Naval News


The keel laying ceremony of the second MILGEM type corvette for Pakistan Navy was held on October 25 at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) in Pakistan.




www.navalnews.com

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## Akh1112

Just want to correct something, these* will NOT be using HQ-16* if the KSEW graphic is to believed. HQ-16 can ONLY be launched out of H/AJK-16 which features a common uptake for exhaust gasses, this is missing on the graphic, implying the missile will be a cold launch missile, so perhaps something along the lines of CAMM/ER, which is very possible considering MBDA IT visited PN very close to the announcement of Jinnah.






On the other hand, ExLS is designed for applications where space is limited, such as on this ship type, it is a cold launch system, can quadpack CAMM/ER and comes in 4 cell configs (as present in the graphic). Its the ONLY cold launch VLS available to the PN. Theres a chance they could use SYLVER but the graphic really does not look like SYLVER cells+ SYLVER is expensive and Bulky.







*One other thing to note, the existance of a 4 cell ExLS solution is assumed based off of this MBDA graphic, i have only ever seen evidence for a 3 cell ExLS, adding more mystery to the setup. Oh, also, the graphic was missing illuminators for HQ-16*

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## Scorpiooo

But no news of 2 frigates was shared additional to these 4 by Pak Navy with turkish.. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Or you referring to jinnah class will developed locally as follow up 

Can pleases share its detial with us


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> But no news of 2 frigates was shared additional to these 4 by Pak Navy with turkish.. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Or you referring to jinnah class will developed locally as follow up
> 
> Can pleases share its detial with us


what is your question?


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## T-SaGe

@Akh1112 The absence of the uptake hatch you marked may indicate that a cold launch type missile family will be used in this VLS. CAMM is one of them, but not the only one.. UK and Italy, more open to military cooperation both with Pakistan and Turkey, so that CAMM is the usual candidate for politics part.

The model(MBDA launcher) you show: one of some "peripheral" VLS system development works that have increasing in recent years. Another and -on the service- example is MARK-57. These launch cells are mostly in tactical length, as they can be positioned on very different superstructure sections other than the middle deck or bow of the ships, compared to centralized magazines. In addition to being an extremely modular and easy to maintain launch system with the ammunition types used SVL compatible, as far as I can understand, it can be applied to all types of ships much more easily.


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## Scorpiooo

2 additional frigates he mentioned. Was the question ? Is any official order or he meant jinnah class


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> But no news of 2 frigates was shared additional to these 4 by Pak Navy with turkish.. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Or you referring to jinnah class will developed locally as follow up
> 
> Can pleases share its detial with us


Jinnah-class frigates. There are 2 ships on the roadmap for the time being.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Jinnah-class frigates. There are 2 ships on the roadmap for the time being.


Thanks for clarification


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## Scorpiooo

Any idea when this jinnah class construction will be expected to start .. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> Any idea when this jinnah class construction will be expected to start .. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Late 2020s at the earliest.

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## khanasifm

T-SaGe said:


> @Akh1112 The absence of the uptake hatch you marked may indicate that a cold launch type missile family will be used in this VLS. CAMM is one of them, but not the only one.. UK and Italy, more open to military cooperation both with Pakistan and Turkey, so that CAMM is the usual candidate for politics part.
> 
> The model(MBDA launcher) you show: one of some "peripheral" VLS system development works that have increasing in recent years. Another and -on the service- example is MARK-57. These launch cells are mostly in tactical length, as they can be positioned on very different superstructure sections other than the middle deck or bow of the ships, compared to centralized magazines. In addition to being an extremely modular and easy to maintain launch system with the ammunition types used SVL compatible, as far as I can understand, it can be applied to all types of ships much more easily.



It’s just aimage , check first image of jf 17 Loojs different

During the Aman Naval Exercise held in February 2019, Admiral Abbasi said that Pakistan ships will be fitted with a 16-Cell VLS behind the main gun for Chinese made medium-range air defense missiles probably LY-80/HHQ-16 variant.

Unless since then chief is wrong 😑?? Possible or changed after he left

only known naval Chinese medium range sam is Ly-80

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Late 2020s at the earliest.


That very positive.. time frame if they start in construction

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> It’s just aimage , check first image of jf 17 Loojs different
> 
> During the Aman Naval Exercise held in February 2019, Admiral Abbasi said that Pakistan ships will be fitted with a 16-Cell VLS behind the main gun for Chinese made medium-range air defense missiles probably LY-80/HHQ-16 variant.
> 
> Unless since then chief is wrong 😑?? Possible or changed after he left
> 
> only known naval Chinese medium range sam is Ly-80


Sure but then that image also has a 2x3 AShM configuration. So, if we're to take that seriously, then we also have to pay careful attention to the VLS image too. Also, at AMAN, the PN said the corvettes will be CODAD, but the PN ultimately ordered LM2500s from the US (i.e., for CODAG).

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## Aamir Hussain

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sure but then that image also has a 2x3 AShM configuration. So, if we're to take that seriously, then we also have to pay careful attention to the VLS image too. Also, at AMAN, the PN said the corvettes will be CODAD, but the PN ultimately ordered LM2500s from the US (i.e., for CODAG).



The LM Turbines were on order for more than one year, it is on SIPRI report too. So where did the CNS come up with CODAD...strange.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> The LM Turbines were on order for more than one year, it is on SIPRI report too. So where did the CNS come up with CODAD...strange.


When the PN originally revealed the specifications of the MILGEMs in 2019 (to publications, but none of the Pakistani ones present at Aman thought to report it Lol).

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## Scorpiooo

Can Chinese weapons be integrated on them


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## Titanium100

Scorpiooo said:


> Can Chinese weapons be integrated on them



It depends if the Chinese systems are not connect to their grid or not


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## Scorpiooo

Titanium100 said:


> It depends if the Chinese systems are not connect to their grid or not


But if PN want use Chinese weapons form them, then provision is already discussed will be on roadmap


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## AKINCI

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1388168652600586244

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## Imran Khan

what is update for first one


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## syed_yusuf

I expect the first one to join PN by mid next year, followed by 2nd one under construction at KSEW by end of next year or beginning of 2023. Followed by this one and the last example by 2024. In next 3 years PN will add 8 new ships of similar capabilities.

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## manowar

First one to join PN Navy in 2023 according to schedule. It will be launched in July this year. It takes apprx. one year for installation then takes 4-6 months for HAT&SAT. So, delivery could be in end of the 2022 at best but most likely in 2023.

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## Scorpiooo

No 3 and 4 to be build in karachi Pakistan, then onword jinnah class
As per @Tipu7 , contract of 2 Jinnah class is done with turkish and first one construction will start within a year in pakistan 

So it will be interesting that ada and jinnah will in construction at similar time frames in pakistan

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## xbat

Imran Khan said:


> what is update for first one


i think the one next to new module is the old one, ship body looks near to complete for me

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## khanasifm

A Look At PN MILGEM/JINNAH Program







www.defenceturkey.com

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## khansaheeb

Pakistan needs to stop wasting money on low tech items and should be focusing on drone carriers integrated with Satellites and AWACs.

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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> A Look At PN MILGEM/JINNAH Program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceturkey.com


He has old info, as per him ada for Pakistan are Jinnah-class, but as per last cheif of naval jinnah is post ada entirely improved design for future

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## T-SaGe

From Aselsan's Annual Report - p.94 https://www.aselsan.com.tr/2020_Faaliyet_Raporu_2314.pdf

"In the MİLGEM-5 Project, the Combat System Contract for the first frigate (Istanbul Class Frigate) to be designed and built nationally and locally was signed in 2020 and entered into force. Unlike the previous MİLGEM Corvette Platforms in the project:
ALPER Illumination Radar,
Pulse Type LPI Radar,
Extended Band Electronic Warfare Suite,
AKREP Fire Control Radar,
PIRI Infrared Search and Tracking System,
National Torpedo Tube System,
FERSAH Hull Mounted Sonar System,
GÖKDENİZ close-in weapon system,
CENK search radar,
and National IFF System, included in new configuration."

I bring this part to the attention of Pakistani defense enthusiasts, due to the maximum similarity between TCG Istanbul frigate and the PN-MILGEM project navionic equipment.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## iLION12345_1

khansaheeb said:


> Pakistan needs to stop wasting money on low tech items and should be focusing on drone carriers integrated with Satellites and AWACs.


The fact that you called these low tech shows how you perceive military technology. Drones are near useless in Pak-India warfare. They have been overhyped due to conflicts where one side had a major edge. They are almost unprotected against SAMS and fighter aircraft. Any country with decent AD or AF will shoot them like mosquitos.

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## khansaheeb

iLION12345_1 said:


> The fact that you called these low tech shows how you perceive military technology. Drones are near useless in Pak-India warfare. They have been overhyped due to conflicts where one side had a major edge. They are almost unprotected against SAMS and fighter aircraft. Any country with decent AD or AF will shoot them like mosquitos.


True for low tech drones but my vision is for Hitech drones with stealth, ECM and anti-jamming capabilities. Not low speed propeller drones but high speed turbofan or rocket powered drones. Also your vision of application may differ from mine. My vision for Pak Navy is for drones to extend reconnaissance, guidance, early warning and targeting for Missiles and planes. There will be offensive drones, defensive drones, sensor carriers and weapons carriers, drones for submarine hunting, drones for ship hunting , drones for guiding torpedoes, drones for early warning etc etc. To protect drones from jamming we would need intelligent autonomous drones.

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## iLION12345_1

khansaheeb said:


> True for low tech drones but my vision is for Hitech drones with stealth, ECM and anti-jamming capabilities. Not low speed propeller drones but high speed turbofan or rocket powered drones. Also your vision of application may differ from mine. My vision for Pak Navy is for drones to extend reconnaissance, guidance, early warning and targeting for Missiles and planes. There will be offensive drones, defensive drones, sensor carriers and weapons carriers, drones for submarine hunting, drones for ship hunting , drones for guiding torpedoes, drones for early warning etc etc. To protect drones from jamming we would need intelligent autonomous drones.


Pakistan doesn’t have the technology to make anything even close to that. Not even the USA and China have it yet. If we start working on that now we will be undefended for the next 50 years. We cannot be too idealistic. As drones advance, so will normal aircraft and SAM systems.

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## khansaheeb

iLION12345_1 said:


> Pakistan doesn’t have the technology to make anything even close to that. Not even the USA and China have it yet. If we start working on that now we will be undefended for the next 50 years. We cannot be too idealistic. As drones advance, so will normal aircraft and SAM systems.


In Engineering we always start off with ideal requirements and try to achieve the ideal.

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## waz

Guys let's leave the drones talk.


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## khansaheeb

iLION12345_1 said:


> Pakistan doesn’t have the technology to make anything even close to that. Not even the USA and China have it yet. If we start working on that now we will be undefended for the next 50 years. We cannot be too idealistic. As drones advance, so will normal aircraft and SAM systems.


\
What world do you live in?

The more I discover Pakistani technology and Pakistani talent I am flabbergasted how much Pakistan has changed. Not sure if it is the plans of 20 years ago or the Chinese input but Pakistan is rocketing. We need to throw away the shrouds of financial insecurity and look towards making Pakistan the great nation it can be. I am using Pakistani programmers/developers in Karachi and am just awed how brilliant they are. With the right policies and plans we can further shift from manual labor workforce to talent and skills based society. The key is education and then post education development. Industry and the armed forces must make their input by interacting with schools and universities to encourage, motivate and inspire them into innovation and development. Every Pakistani must have a value of their contribution to Pakistan and an admiration and love for the country.


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## iLION12345_1

khansaheeb said:


> \
> What world do you live in?
> 
> The more I discover Pakistani technology and Pakistani talent I am flabbergasted how much Pakistan has changed. Not sure if it is the plans of 20 years ago or the Chinese input but Pakistan is rocketing. We need to throw away the shrouds of financial insecurity and look towards making Pakistan the great nation it can be. I am using Pakistani programmers/developers in Karachi and am just awed how brilliant they are. With the right policies and plans we can further shift from manual labor workforce to talent and skills based society. The key is education and then post education development. Industry and the armed forces must make their input by interacting with schools and universities to encourage, motivate and inspire them into innovation and development. Every Pakistani must have a value of their contribution to Pakistan and an admiration and love for the country.


I will leave you and your idealism here since the moderators have asked me to. Pakistanis are amazing at everything except at being realistic.

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## xbat

today, new block added

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396413915320487936

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## syed_yusuf

First one hull is almost complete , 2023 is not too far


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Navy Modernization is a very slow process we have been hearing the discussions since 2016-2017 about the ships

But Pakistan is taking the necessary small steps to improve the Navy

It would have been ideal if the Turn around was 1 Ship a Year but it is what it is

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## ARMalik

In my opinion these ships along with the Chinese should have ALREADY been up and running. I am afraid PN is running late, and in no position to provide any real offensive or defensive value presently. And to top it of, even if they were running late, they should already have J-16/J-15/JH-7 type fighters up and running but they have failed on all accounts.

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## khansaheeb

khansaheeb said:


> Pakistan needs to stop wasting money on low tech items and should be focusing on drone carriers integrated with Satellites and AWACs.


What's so funny?


khansaheeb said:


> Pakistan needs to stop wasting money on low tech items and should be focusing on drone carriers integrated with Satellites and AWACs.


*@Affanakad0t *What do you find so funny?

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## iLION12345_1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The Navy Modernization is a very slow process we have been hearing the discussions since 2016-2017 about the ships
> 
> But Pakistan is taking the necessary small steps to improve the Navy
> 
> It would have been ideal if the Turn around was 1 Ship a Year but it is what it is


Read my posts on the previous page, these delivery times are normal, rather even quicker than they should be. 1 ship a year is impossible except if you’re china, and even then, that’s when it’s a large order and the ship isn’t a new design.

All of what Pakistan has ordered are new designs, not the same as the Turkish or Chinese ones, they need to go through a design phase, then a design test phase, then the building phase and then another test phase before delivery. These are massive warships and submarines brother. Even China is taking years and years to deliver our Hangor submarines because they are a new design, but the Type 054AP were finished very quickly because they are an existing design which China has made many of.

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## Syntage

iLION12345_1 said:


> Read my posts on the previous page, these delivery times are normal, rather even quicker than they should be. 1 ship a year is impossible except if you’re china, and even then, that’s when it’s a large order and the ship isn’t a new design.
> 
> All of what Pakistan has ordered are new designs, not the same as the Turkish or Chinese ones, they need to go through a design phase, then a design test phase, then the building phase and then another test phase before delivery. These are massive warships and submarines brother. Even China is taking years and years to deliver our Hangor submarines because they are a new design, but the Type 054AP were finished very quickly because they are an existing design which China has made many of.


Turks are really slow in this domain.Its been 6-8 months since the construction started of the 1st the first ship and look at the timeline.With the regional conflicts looming, we don't have much time to prepare.As per current pace of Turks, when the conflict starts they will still be working on the ships.What good they will be for us?Same goes for Chinese Submarines.Payments can be rescheduled but the delivery should be made possible asap.

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## iLION12345_1

Syntage said:


> Turks are really slow in this domain.Its been 6-8 months since the construction started of the 1st the first ship and look at the timeline.With the regional conflicts looming, we don't have much time to prepare.As per current pace of Turks, when the conflict starts they will still be working on the ships.What good they will be for us?Same goes for Chinese Submarines.Payments can be rescheduled but the delivery should be made possible asap.


Didn’t I literally just answer this twice? Do you know how long it normally takes to construct a ship, Especially when it’s a new design? This isn’t a Suzuki Mehran bro, it’s a 3000+ ton warship, it takes time because there is a design phase involved before the construction too. The submarines are even bigger and more complex.

For example, the average time from contract signing to delivery for a US Navy Burke class destroyer is _*FOUR YEARS.*_ And that’s excluding the design phase. The time taken for the same destroyer from starting of construction to the launch of the ship is *10-11 months*, and that’s before the testing phase, which takes a further few months. So *18 *_*months*_ from start of construction to delivery.
Let’s take a smaller ship, like a frigate, on average it takes *2 years* for a US navy frigate to go from contract to launching. So close to 2.5 years for delivery. That’s apart from the 4 years taken to design it, granted ours are not starting from the ground up but based off an existing design, it still takes a few months in that phase.
Sources:
https://ingalls.huntingtoningalls.com/our-products/ddg/








Here’s the timeline for the US Navy’s next-generation frigate


Meet the FFG(X).




www.defensenews.com





So what makes you think Turkey or China are going to cut that down to 6 months?
I hope this puts an end to the needless hue and cry about the timeline of delivery for all our vessels.

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## Syntage

iLION12345_1 said:


> Didn’t I literally just answer this twice? Do you know how long it normally takes to construct a ship, Especially when it’s a new design? This isn’t a Suzuki Mehran bro, it’s a 3000+ ton warship, it takes time because there is a design phase involved before the construction too. The submarines are even bigger and more complex.
> 
> For example, the average time from contract signing to delivery for a US Navy Burke class destroyer is _*FOUR YEARS.*_ And that’s excluding the design phase. The time taken for the same destroyer from starting of construction to the launch of the ship is *10-11 months*, and that’s before the testing phase, which takes a further few months. So *18 *_*months*_ from start of construction to delivery.
> Let’s take a smaller ship, like a frigate, on average it takes *2 years* for a US navy frigate to go from contract to launching. So close to 2.5 years for delivery. That’s apart from the 4 years taken to design it, granted ours are not starting from the ground up but based off an existing design, it still takes a few months in that phase.
> Sources:
> https://ingalls.huntingtoningalls.com/our-products/ddg/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s the timeline for the US Navy’s next-generation frigate
> 
> 
> Meet the FFG(X).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what makes you think Turkey or China are going to cut that down to 6 months?
> I hope this puts an end to the needless hue and cry about the timeline of delivery for all our vessels.



I know bro n i agree with you that building a ship takes time considering the redesigning involved but we as well as Turks know that we don't have years n years to complete these boats.In emergencies they should work like Chinese (in terms of Type 54APs).Chinese know whats at stake so they work around the clock but Turks I think work 8 hrs a day.Times like these require preparations.
Look at their pace of work, they built 4 ships in 15 yrs.Look at constant changing situations & emerging threats and then look at their pace.Its irritating and annoying.

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## Tipu7

Syntage said:


> I know bro n i agree with you that building a ship takes time considering the redesigning involved but we as well as Turks know that we don't have years n years to complete these boats.In emergencies they should work like Chinese (in terms of Type 54APs).Chinese know whats at stake so they work around the clock but Turks I think work 8 hrs a day.Times like these require preparations.
> Look at their pace of work, they built 4 ships in 15 yrs.Look at constant changing situations & emerging threats and then look at their pace.Its irritating and annoying.


What emergency we are facing?
Are we planning to fight war with India by 2025?
Turks have recently started warship production and simply do not have natural production capacity as that of Chinese. Infact, no one in World can match Chinese as far as ship production pace is concerned.

Plus, look at development cost and time period. How much different PN Type-54A/P are from PLAN Type-54A? Not very much. Few new radars, new weapons, that's it. No major structural changes, no difference in size or displacement.

Now How much PN Milgem are different from Turkish ones? Entirely different class. A design based upon Turkish Milgem (2600 Tons) entirely upscaled to I-clas frigate level (3000 tons). And lets not forget that Milgem is bringing new technologies in Pakistan and a pair of ships will be producing in KSEW. All these tech tranfers also consume significant chunk of time.
Just have a look at Indian Kolkatta, Shivalik case, and you'll see how time consuming ship production is in actuality.

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## khansaheeb

iLION12345_1 said:


> Didn’t I literally just answer this twice? Do you know how long it normally takes to construct a ship, Especially when it’s a new design? This isn’t a Suzuki Mehran bro, it’s a 3000+ ton warship, it takes time because there is a design phase involved before the construction too. The submarines are even bigger and more complex.
> 
> For example, the average time from contract signing to delivery for a US Navy Burke class destroyer is _*FOUR YEARS.*_ And that’s excluding the design phase. The time taken for the same destroyer from starting of construction to the launch of the ship is *10-11 months*, and that’s before the testing phase, which takes a further few months. So *18 *_*months*_ from start of construction to delivery.
> Let’s take a smaller ship, like a frigate, on average it takes *2 years* for a US navy frigate to go from contract to launching. So close to 2.5 years for delivery. That’s apart from the 4 years taken to design it, granted ours are not starting from the ground up but based off an existing design, it still takes a few months in that phase.
> Sources:
> https://ingalls.huntingtoningalls.com/our-products/ddg/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s the timeline for the US Navy’s next-generation frigate
> 
> 
> Meet the FFG(X).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what makes you think Turkey or China are going to cut that down to 6 months?
> I hope this puts an end to the needless hue and cry about the timeline of delivery for all our vessels.


There are ways to cut down the manufacturing times but it requires experience and techniques. If the the ship is modular and the assembly of multiple ships is done concurrently/parallel then yes 6 months is feasible. You just need giant cranes, giant belts, giant machinery and 24/7 hour work force.


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## Akh1112

BTW, i have measured the size of the VLS cutout on the Ada's for the PN and the VLS hole seems to align with the dimensions of SYLVER-A43.

nudge @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## DHSquare

Akh1112 said:


> BTW, i have measured the size of the VLS cutout on the Ada's for the PN and the VLS hole seems to align with the dimensions of SYLVER-A43.
> 
> nudge @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


As per the image, does than mean only 8x missiles on each boat?


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## Tipu7

Akh1112 said:


> BTW, i have measured the size of the VLS cutout on the Ada's for the PN and the VLS hole seems to align with the dimensions of SYLVER-A43.
> 
> nudge @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


SYLVER-A43 supports CAMM, Mica, Crotale and Aster-15.


DHSquare said:


> As per the image, does than mean only 8x missiles on each boat?


Two sets of 8 VLS tubes: total 16 tubes. 
In case of CAMM:
Each tube can carry four missile.
Therefore, 
16X4 = 64 missiles in total per ship.

In case of Crotale, Aster-15 and Mica,
One missile per tube, totalling 16 missiles per ship.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> BTW, i have measured the size of the VLS cutout on the Ada's for the PN and the VLS hole seems to align with the dimensions of SYLVER-A43.
> 
> nudge @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


CEO of MBDA Italia was at NHQ in Oct 2019.


Tipu7 said:


> What emergency we are facing?
> Are we planning to fight war with India by 2025?
> Turks have recently started warship production and simply do not have natural production capacity as that of Chinese. Infact, no one in World can match Chinese as far as ship production pace is concerned.
> 
> Plus, look at development cost and time period. How much different PN Type-54A/P are from PLAN Type-54A? Not very much. Few new radars, new weapons, that's it. No major structural changes, no difference in size or displacement.
> 
> Now How much PN Milgem are different from Turkish ones? Entirely different class. A design based upon Turkish Milgem (2600 Tons) entirely upscaled to I-clas frigate level (3000 tons). And lets not forget that Milgem is bringing new technologies in Pakistan and a pair of ships will be producing in KSEW. All these tech tranfers also consume significant chunk of time.
> Just have a look at Indian Kolkatta, Shivalik case, and you'll see how time consuming ship production is in actuality.


I'd say the PN MILGEM is different from the I-Class family. The PN MILGEM is actually a scaled-up ADA (which could apparently go as far as 3,500 tons as a design) with capabilities comparable to the I-Class. However, the I-Class seems to be a different sub-family. 

It'll be interesting to see if the Jinnah-class FFG follows from the PN MILGEM or the I-Class. And if it's the latter, might the PN still keep buying PN MILGEM corvettes in parallel to Jinnah-class frigates?

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> CEO of MBDA Italia was at NHQ in Oct 2019.
> 
> I'd say the PN MILGEM is different from the I-Class family. The PN MILGEM is actually a scaled-up ADA (which could apparently go as far as 3,500 tons as a design) with capabilities comparable to the I-Class. However, the I-Class seems to be a different sub-family.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see if the Jinnah-class FFG follows from the PN MILGEM or the I-Class. And if it's the latter, might the PN still keep buying PN MILGEM corvettes in parallel to Jinnah-class frigates?



Mbda Italian can offer naval sparrow or spada an upgrade of albatross not sure about anything else



Albatros


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## FuturePAF

Tipu7 said:


> SYLVER-A43 supports CAMM, Mica, Crotale and Aster-15.
> 
> Two sets of 8 VLS tubes: total 16 tubes.
> In case of CAMM:
> Each tube can carry four missile.
> Therefore,
> 16X4 = 64 missiles in total per ship.
> 
> In case of Crotale, Aster-15 and Mica,
> One missile per tube, totalling 16 missiles per ship.



Is Turkey working on an equivalent to the CAMM? A Turkish equivalent (perhaps based on the Hisar series of missiles) would keep the ship sanction proof, and be a missile system the PN could fit to its F-22P as part of a midlife refit.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Mbda Italian can offer naval sparrow or spada an upgrade of albatross not sure about anything else
> 
> 
> 
> Albatros





Italy Restores Funding for CAMM ER Air-Defense Missiles

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## T-SaGe

FuturePAF said:


> Is Turkey working on an equivalent to the CAMM?



Yes G-40 project is very similiar to CAMM-ER.

TÜBİTAK SAGE Institute Director Gürcan Okumuş gave important information about the air defense system studies for ships in an interview with MaviVatan.net. Some key parts from his statements:


"TÜBİTAK SAGE has primarily worked on a NASAMS-like system using GÖKDOĞAN and BOZDOĞAN missiles and made a larger engined version pre-designing to increase the range and altitude value.

"The missile we call G-40 is an air defense missile that uses GÖKDOĞAN technologies that can reach 40 km range and 40k feet altitude. Although this missile can be used as a land based medium altitude air defense missile, it also has an ESSM equivalent structure as a Ship Air Defense Missile."

"The idea of developing the G-40 missile with the Flexible Vertical laucnch System, which includes a kind of cold launch technology, in an integrated manner has started with the developments in this area. With the Flexible Vertical Firing System (EDAS/FVLS), the G-40 missile will provide safe use from ships and can be used in land-based systems too."

"TÜBİTAK SAGE is not only developing the cold vertical launch technology, but also a similar technology called soft vertical launch with some differences. Our aim here is to develop alternative launch methods. Hot launch technology already exists in the industry and we focused on developing a non-existent capability rather than a technology that has been developed as usual. We started by making predictions about what the present and future needs of the naval forces might be. We set out on what could be the alternative domestic counterparts of our naval close, medium range and high altitude air defense systems. If you ask why the cold launch, this system is a better tech that will keep our ships relatively safe. You not to ignite the engine in the ship and you prevent possible accidents. In addition, the system will take up less space and will be lighter. This means more missile load on our ships."

sources- https://mavivatan.net/tubitak-sage-...enin-devam-eden-projeleri-ve-gelecek-vizyonu/
https://www.defenceturk.net/tubitak-sageden-savas-gemileri-icin-hava-savunma-ailesi-plani

While there is an ADVENT solution for the need for an indigenous modern combat management system in Turkey, integration and test activities on radar projects such as ÇAFRAD and CENK-S continue. So the most critical system in Turkey's air defense system needs for ships are: missiles, launching techs and launcher systems suitable for these missiles, which all are expected to be put into use gradually in the near term.

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## Akh1112

FuturePAF said:


> Is Turkey working on an equivalent to the CAMM? A Turkish equivalent (perhaps based on the Hisar series of missiles) would keep the ship sanction proof, and be a missile system the PN could fit to its F-22P as part of a midlife refit.


CAMM-ER is an Italian funded project, we have had Italian equiptment on our platforms for decades now. Its rather sanction proof.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

T-SaGe said:


> Yes G-40 project is very similiar to CAMM-ER.
> 
> TÜBİTAK SAGE Institute Director Gürcan Okumuş gave important information about the air defense system studies for ships in an interview with MaviVatan.net. Some key parts from his statements:
> 
> 
> "TÜBİTAK SAGE has primarily worked on a NASAMS-like system using GÖKDOĞAN and BOZDOĞAN missiles and made a larger engined version pre-designing to increase the range and altitude value.
> 
> "The missile we call G-40 is an air defense missile that uses GÖKDOĞAN technologies that can reach 40 km range and 40k feet altitude. Although this missile can be used as a land based medium altitude air defense missile, it also has an ESSM equivalent structure as a Ship Air Defense Missile."
> 
> "The idea of developing the G-40 missile with the Flexible Vertical laucnch System, which includes a kind of cold launch technology, in an integrated manner has started with the developments in this area. With the Flexible Vertical Firing System (EDAS/FVLS), the G-40 missile will provide safe use from ships and can be used in land-based systems too."
> 
> "TÜBİTAK SAGE is not only developing the cold vertical launch technology, but also a similar technology called soft vertical launch with some differences. Our aim here is to develop alternative launch methods. Hot launch technology already exists in the industry and we focused on developing a non-existent capability rather than a technology that has been developed as usual. We started by making predictions about what the present and future needs of the naval forces might be. We set out on what could be the alternative domestic counterparts of our naval close, medium range and high altitude air defense systems. If you ask why the cold launch, this system is a better tech that will keep our ships relatively safe. You not to ignite the engine in the ship and you prevent possible accidents. In addition, the system will take up less space and will be lighter. This means more missile load on our ships."
> 
> sources- https://mavivatan.net/tubitak-sage-...enin-devam-eden-projeleri-ve-gelecek-vizyonu/
> https://www.defenceturk.net/tubitak-sageden-savas-gemileri-icin-hava-savunma-ailesi-plani
> 
> While there is an ADVENT solution for the need for an indigenous modern combat management system in Turkey, integration and test activities on radar projects such as ÇAFRAD and CENK-S continue. So the most critical system in Turkey's air defense system needs for ships are: missiles, launching techs and launcher systems suitable for these missiles, which all are expected to be put into use gradually in the near term.




The G40 will likely always remain a concept. I think Roketsan has customized Hisar RF for the needs of the naval forces.

If you look at the diameter of the RF seeker coil in this photo, it looks very comfortable fit for the quadpack.

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## PakShaheen79

Google Translation:

In the PN MİLGEM Project, which includes the construction of a total of 4 corvettes to be shaped on the ADA Class Corvette design for the Pakistan Navy, two of the ships will be built at the Istanbul Shipyard Command and the other two at the Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) in Pakistan. The construction of 3 corvettes is currently underway and the first ship of the Project will be launched in July 2021 and delivered in Turkey in August 2023, and the construction of the 4th ship of the Project, which is expected to be delivered in Karachi in February 2025, will be completed in June 2021 by Karachi Shipyard and It is planned to start at the Engineering Factory. It was previously announced that there will be a number of differences in the design of the fourth of the PN-MİLGEM Corvettes. In this context, it was stated that Pakistani engineers and technicians who received on-the-job training during the construction of the first ship would gain the ability to make changes on the ADA Class Corvette design up to the fourth ship. With the PN-MİLGEM Project, Pakistan will gain the ability to design and build its own unique warship with the support of Turkish engineers. The new design ships that will be built as a continuation of the PN-MİLGEM Project are classified as JINNAH Class Frigates. The JINNAH Class Frigate concept, which is expected to be a joint design of Turkey and Pakistan, is expected to be introduced through the scale model to be exhibited at the IDEF '21 Fair, which will be held next August. When we examined the previously shared Computerized Images (CGI) of the PN MİLGEM Corvette, which will have a tonnage between the ADA Class of 2,400 tons and the STACK Class of 3,000 tons with a displacement of 2,926 tons, Leonardo (Oto Melara) product is right behind the 76mm Super Rapid head cannon HHQ-16 Medium Range Airborne. For the Defense Missile System, there was a 16-cell Vertical Firing System (VLS). HHQ-16/LY-80N, a medium-range, semi-active radar-guided air defense missile system produced by the Chinese China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CASC), is also used in Type 054A/P Frigates (which are under construction in China) for the Pakistan Navy. with 32-cell VLS). With a maximum range of 42km (the extended range version of the missile, the HHQ-16B, has a range of 70km), the HHQ-16 has a 70kg warhead and is claimed to be able to intercept at altitudes between 15m and 18km. One of the Type 345 (NATO code MR-90 Front Dome) Illumination Radars, which is part of the HHQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defense Missile System, was deployed just in front of the mast and the other just behind the chimney. With the preference of the MBDA product Albatros NG System, a different 16-cell VLS will be placed behind the bow gun for CAMM-ER/Albatros NG missiles. CAMM-ER/Albatros NG missiles, which have their own unique launch canister, can also be used as a 'quad-pack' (ability to place 4 missiles per cell) in Sylver, ExLS and Mk-41 VLS Systems. The CAMM-ER missile is basically a version of the CAMM missile with a booster (ejection motor) and the 3.2m long, 166mm diameter and 99kg CAMM missile has a range of 25km, while the 4.2m long, 190mm diameter and 160kg weight CAMM-ER has a maximum range of 45km+ The prevention altitude is estimated to be 10 km. Missiles have Active RF (radar) guidance and bidirectional data link, and they do not need target illumination radar (SMART-S Mk 2 3BAR data on the ship will be sufficient). Engagement information about the target (position, altitude, speed, etc.) can be transferred to the missile via the data link. As the need for illumination radar has been removed, Type 345 (NATO code MR-90 Front Dome) Illumination Radars, which were previously included in the PN MİLGEM Corvette drawings and were a part of the HHQ-16 Medium Range Air Defense Missile System, will be removed and two data link antennas will be installed on the ships. Thanks to the throw-and-forget-type CAMM-ER/Albatros NG NBAD System, PN MİLGEM Corvettes will be able to engage more air targets at the same time compared to the semi-active radar-guided HHQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defense Missile System and will be able to perform missions with a higher performance in the EH environment. . In MİLGEM-PN MİLGEM Class Corvettes, a total of 6 Harbah Anti-Ship and Land Attack Cruise Missiles (ASCM) are located at 90 degrees to each other, hidden behind the cover on the port and starboard sides (used to reduce the RKA/RCS value of the ship) in the pool section just behind the main mast. /LACM is estimated to be able to reach a range of 450km to 750km) or another missile system, whose name is still under development, and 2 Aselsan products 25mm Stabilized Gun (STOP/GUARDIAN) Systems (port and starboard sides) and the SKYDENİZ Close Air Defense System (CIWS) , its use is finalized) will be used. Main Propulsion System (ATS) to be used in PN MİLGEM Corvettes with a length of 108.2m, a width of 14.8m and a draft of 4.05m, LM2500 gas turbine and 4,300kW/5,766hp each.

Original Turkish link
https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...albatros-ng-nbad-sistemi-ile-donatiliyor-4601

Link to MBDA's contract the article talks about
https://www.mbda-systems.com/?action=force-download-attachment&attachment_id=19928

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Meanwhile, according to Turkish sources, Chinese missiles will not be used on board. Albatros NG is expected to be the first platform of Pakistan's ADA. It is stated that the fire control radars will also be removed.

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## Areesh

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Meanwhile, according to Turkish sources, Chinese missiles will not be used on board. Albatros NG is expected to be the first platform of Pakistan's ADA. It is stated that the fire control radars will also be removed.



Why fire control radars would be removed?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Areesh said:


> Why fire control radars would be removed?




Missiles will be have active radar homing.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Pakistan Navy Forum 'wishing well' strikes again. 

Literally everything we wish for on this forum comes true apparently.

...so...who wants aircraft carriers?

@JamD @SQ8 @Falcon26 @CriticalThought

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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Pakistan Navy Forum 'wishing well' strikes again.
> 
> Literally everything we wish for on this forum comes true apparently.
> 
> ...so...who wants aircraft carriers?
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @Falcon26 @CriticalThought


I’ll take one


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## Tipu7

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Meanwhile, according to Turkish sources, Chinese missiles will not be used on board. Albatros NG is expected to be the first platform of Pakistan's ADA. It is stated that the fire control radars will also be removed.


Here is the link,
The deal has already been signed with a 'undisclosed customer'. Deliveries by 2024.
Excellent choice by Navy ...

@Bilal Khan (Quwa), it's Quad packed, right? 🤔








PN MİLGEM Korvetleri Albatros NG NBAD Sistemi ile Donatılıyor!







www.defenceturkey.com

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> I’ll take one


PNS Badr let's goooo

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Pakistan Navy Forum 'wishing well' strikes again.
> 
> Literally everything we wish for on this forum comes true apparently.
> 
> ...so...who wants aircraft carriers?
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @Falcon26 @CriticalThought



We should start posting PAF acquisition wishlist on this forum so our concerns can be passed to the right people lol

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## The Eagle

Congrats. The reason why we had meetings and visits. Not every meeting is a mere formality for photos.


Falcon26 said:


> We should start posting PAF acquisition wishlist on this forum so our concerns can be passed to the right people lol



You will see something in high level.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> We should start posting PAF acquisition wishlist on this forum so our concerns can be passed to the right people lol


Like, seriously...what happened on this forum?

When the PN was negotiating for the MILGEM, we asked for VLS...we got VLS.

When the PN was seeking an aircraft for the LRMPA, we asked for Embraer...we got Embraer.

When we asked for CAMM-ER...we got CAMM-ER.

I hope the forthcoming Jinnah-class frigate gets Aster-30. There, I said it. 



The Eagle said:


> Congrats. The reason why we had meetings and visits. Not every meeting is a mere formality for photos.


The CEO of MBDA Italy visited NHQ in 2019.









Italian Defence Industry Heads Visit Pakistan


On 17 October 2019, the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi officially met with the President of the Italian Companies for Aerospace, Defence and Security (A...




quwa.org

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## PakShaheen79

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Missiles will be have active radar homing.


Illumination radar will be removed.


----------



## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Like, seriously...what happened on this forum?
> 
> When the PN was negotiating for the MILGEM, we asked for VLS...we got VLS.
> 
> When the PN was seeking an aircraft for the LRMPA, we asked for Embraer...we got Embraer.
> 
> When we asked for CAMM-ER...we got CAMM-ER.
> 
> I hope the forthcoming Jinnah-class frigate gets Aster-30. There, I said it.
> 
> 
> The CEO of MBDA Italy visited NHQ in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italian Defence Industry Heads Visit Pakistan
> 
> 
> On 17 October 2019, the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi officially met with the President of the Italian Companies for Aerospace, Defence and Security (A...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org



How does it compare to the Israeli systems in use by the Indians?


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Pakistan Navy Forum 'wishing well' strikes again.
> 
> Literally everything we wish for on this forum comes true apparently.
> 
> ...so...who wants aircraft carriers?
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @Falcon26 @CriticalThought


Not unless they are submarines as well

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## Akh1112

Tipu7 said:


> Here is the link,
> The deal has already been signed with a 'undisclosed customer'. Deliveries by 2024.
> Excellent choice by Navy ...
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa), it's Quad packed, right? 🤔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PN MİLGEM Korvetleri Albatros NG NBAD Sistemi ile Donatılıyor!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceturkey.com


yes.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Like, seriously...what happened on this forum?
> 
> When the PN was negotiating for the MILGEM, we asked for VLS...we got VLS.
> 
> When the PN was seeking an aircraft for the LRMPA, we asked for Embraer...we got Embraer.
> 
> When we asked for CAMM-ER...we got CAMM-ER.
> 
> I hope the forthcoming Jinnah-class frigate gets Aster-30. There, I said it.
> 
> 
> The CEO of MBDA Italy visited NHQ in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italian Defence Industry Heads Visit Pakistan
> 
> 
> On 17 October 2019, the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi officially met with the President of the Italian Companies for Aerospace, Defence and Security (A...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org


Sir we were demanding VLS for something specific and that is not Air Defense system. But Pakistan having heavy Frigates and Destroyers which have those VLS which can carry and fire long range cruise missiles like 1600 KM to 2400 KM cruise missiles. I really hope and wish Jinah class Frigate is exactly like French FREMM Frigate. Not Italian FREMM but the French version with 16 VLS for Air Defence system and 16 VLS for Ship to Land Cruise Missile and 8 Anti Ship Missile and other systems.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Sir we were demanding VLS for something specific and that is not Air Defense system. But Pakistan having heavy Frigates and Destroyers which have those VLS which can carry and fire long range cruise missiles like 1600 KM to 2400 KM cruise missiles. I really hope and wish Jinah class Frigate is exactly like French FREMM Frigate. Not Italian FREMM but the French version with 16 VLS for Air Defence system and 16 VLS for Ship to Land Cruise Missile and 8 Anti Ship Missile and other systems.
> 
> View attachment 752812


I think there's a fair chance the Jinnah-class frigate will be a 5,000+ ton ship like the FREMM. If that's the case, then I'd expect a long-range anti-air warfare capability plus, possibly, a long-range surface-attack element.

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## Akh1112

i dont see why this is a surprise, this is something we have been predicting ever since the deal was incepted.

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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> Sir we were demanding VLS for something specific and that is not Air Defense system. But Pakistan having heavy Frigates and Destroyers which have those VLS which can carry and fire long range cruise missiles like 1600 KM to 2400 KM cruise missiles. I really hope and wish Jinah class Frigate is exactly like French FREMM Frigate. Not Italian FREMM but the French version with 16 VLS for Air Defence system and 16 VLS for Ship to Land Cruise Missile and 8 Anti Ship Missile and other systems.
> 
> View attachment 752812


Just wait two months, Jinnah class model will be revealed. (Provided that plans will not change)

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## ziya

fire control radar guide oto melara 76mm with a provided aselsan software is very good

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ziya said:


> fire control radar guide oto melara 76mm with a provided aselsan software is very good




As far as I know, the cannon already has its own radar.

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## waz

EDR News
*Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed*
09/04/2021 Albatros, Albatros NG, Aspide, Aster, CAMM, CAMM-ER, Italy, MBDA, PPA, SAAM ESD, Sea Ceptor
_By Luca Peruzzi_
Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click *HERE* to read the press release), the Albatros NG (New Generation) is another member of the family of surface-based land and naval air defence system centered on the CAMM (Common Anti-air Modular Missile) missile. EDR On-Line worked on the subject in order to get as many details as possible on this new product, the following article being based on the answers provided by the company to our questions. What remains undisclosed are details about the first contract obtained, first and foremost the identity of the launch customer.
Conceived and developed as a fifth-generation entry-level naval air defence system based on the CAMM ER (Extended Range) munition and characterized by reduced footprint and weight, low procurement and life-cycle costs, the Albatros NG is presented by MBDA Italia as a self-defence and limited consort ships protection system capable to be installed on a wide range of naval platforms, from first to second-line combatant ships, such as corvettes, large patrol vessels or light frigates, for both new shipbuilding and retrofit or mid-life upgrade projects.


click on image to enlarge
*As a successor of the Albatros naval air defence system based on the Aspide/Aspide 2000 munition, which was sold to 17 nations for naval (Albatros) as well as land (Spada and Skyguard) applications, the Albatros NG was conceived by MBDA Italia as a longer shooter with a range of over 40 km thanks to the CAMM ER munition, to cope with the full range of latest generation threats. These range from challenging anti-ship supersonic high-diving and surface-skimming, to transonic or subsonic low-signature cruise missiles, from manned and unmanned, fixed and rotary-wing platforms to precision-guided munitions, across 360° coverage and with a short reaction time in all weather and modern electronic countermeasures (ECM) operational scenarios.*


click on image to enlarge
The programme was initially developed with company funding, and today is being continued under a contract signed in late 2019 with the Italian MoD for both Air Force and Army Ground-Based Air Defence (GBAD) applications. The CAMM ER munition has been conceived to retain the maximum commonality with the short-range CAMM variant, with the insertion of airframe and components modification due to the longer range and national customization. The ER variant maintains all the benefits of the CAMM’s soft vertical-launch system, which has several advantages over ‘hot’ vertical-launch systems such as reduced minimum engagement range, launch signature and system complexity, in addition to lower maintenance and life-cycle costs.


click on image to enlarge
While retaining the CAMM’s basic architecture (RF Seeker, warhead, active laser proximity, actuators, inertial measurement unit, electronics and power unit, two-way datalink and programmable systems), the ER variant is longer (4.2 meters) to incorporate an extended booster/sustainer rocket motor developed specifically for the MBDA missile by Italian company’s Avio, in a larger calibre (190 mm) propulsion section. Consequently, the overall weight of the missile has increased from 99 kg to 160 kg. The interceptor’s aerodynamics have also been improved, adding strakes to the missile central body which design has been subsequently refined, alongside small fins to the forward section and a redesigned and more performing front seeker radome. *According to MBDA, improved kinematic characteristics embodied in the CAMM ER increase the maximum range, the over 40 km official range, this being however considered a conservative figure according to different industrial sources*. The CAMM/CAMM ER family of munitions is equipped with the same solid-state digital active radar seeker, offering true all-weather performances with excellent clutter rejection capabilities. Having the co-design authority (with MBDA UK) and being the manufacturer of the seeker for the CAMM ER at Italy’s Fusaro centre of excellence for guidance systems of the European group, MBDA Italia also designed and produced the new ceramic front seeker radome applied not only to the CAMM ER but also to the CAMM munition.


click on image to enlarge
The CAMM ER version is today in the qualification phase having already completed firing trials with success in 2019. *These firing trials, of which the first was performed at long range and high apogee while the second at medium range and lower altitude apogee, successfully validated the missile aerodynamic behavior and maneuverability in addition to the munition simulation models.* Having completed the critical design review, a subsequent firing trial, aimed to verify the seeker search and tracking functionalities in real conditions was planned in 2020, but no data were released on this test. The new munition is going through its final trials and qualification activities as planned. According to Italian MoD documentation issued to the Parliament, the ammunition development, qualification and integration with the future air defence system is to be completed in 2023.
In addition to its expanded performances, the Albatros NG is characterized by a reduced footprint and power consumption which facilitate the integration on smaller platforms, such as corvettes and larger patrol vessels, with the only requirement to work with a modern multifunction radar, capable to provide the necessary and precise target detection and tracking information at distance compatible with the enlarged range and engagement envelope of the CAMM ER, to fully exploit the capabilities of the new missile. Thanks to the CAMM ER performances, the system can be used for both ship self-defence as well as for protection of consort ships, but in the latter case this will depend on the distance between ships as well as the engagements geometry.
The Albatros NG is characterized by a system configuration conceived to offer reduced footprint, modular and flexible open architecture to satisfy both new shipbuilding and retrofit programme requirements. Exploiting the architectural and technical solutions already developed by MBDA UK for the Sea Ceptor CAMM naval version and by MBDA Italia for the Italian Navy’s newest PPA (Pattugliatore Polivalente d’Altura) combatant ship developed under the Legge Navale programme, the Albatros NG is centered on a modular, compact and low-weight maritime launching system, firing (weapon control) units and platform data link terminal (PDLT), all managed by the system command and control (C2) unit. The Albatros NG suite also includes a system control panel (SCP) to conduct pre-operational and safety activities on system components.


click on image to enlarge
The CAMM ER maritime launching system (MLS) is based on the compact design developments by MBDA UK for the Royal Navy’s Type 26 and Type 31 frigates.* The CAMM ER MLS solution is functionally identical to the single cells MLS for Type 23 frigates, characterized by a basic but cost effective solution, which sees the single missile launch canister with the same upper chimery assembly of the CAMM, maintaining the same bolting mechanism to the ship through a simple shock mount, without a dedicated launcher system and ancillaries with related weight, power and space requirements. The solution selected for the new UK Type 26 and Type 31 frigates’ MLS is based on a multiple of new six-cell (2×3) modules characterized by a reduced footprint allowing for more missiles to be accommodated in the same space of the Type 23 solution. The Albatros NG MLS is based on the same six-cell baseline solution, except for longer canisters due to the CAMM ER extended length. The modules are spaced to allow canisters inspection. Providing power, target reference data and initialization impulses to the munitions, the Albatros NG firing unit is derived from the solution developed by MBDA Italia for the PPA’s SAAM ESD system based on the Aster family of missiles. Each Albatros NG firing unit manages up to 12 munitions, requiring the installation of multiple firing units should a higher number of missiles be required.*
The platform data link terminal (PDLT) comes from the adaption for shipborne operations by MBDA Italia of the CAMM ER land-based programme solution developed by the Fusaro centre, to provide the required range to cope with the more capable missile version. The shipborne solution will feature four small arrays, of around 40 cm per side, which can be mounted on the main mast to offer 360° coverage, or rearranged inside two turrets on the upper deck of the ship, each one accommodating three arrays covering 180°, as already adopted on Type 23 platforms. The PDLT, which also includes the power generation system below the deck, provides the two-way communication between the ship and the CAMM ER missile; target positional updates can be uplinked from the ship to the missile in flight, while missile status information and diagnostics can be sent back to the ship.
All these subsystems are managed by the C2 module hosted in a cabinet of (2020 (W) x 1720 (L) x 1500 (H) mm) which is the core of the Albatros NG system, also derived from system developed by MBDA Italia for the SAAM ESD air defence suite for the PPA platforms. The C2 module provides a number of functions, the primary ones being the threat evaluation and the weapon assignment, based on target information provided by the radar and the instructions coming from the command management system (CMS) operators, together with the management of both the PDLT and firing unit, as well as diagnostic for both the overall system and missiles. The C2 can work providing information to the CMS or to a dedicated console in a stand-alone configuration.


click on image to enlarge
Based on the agreement signed in 2011 when the two MBDA companies (UK and Italia) decided to invest on the new GBAD (Ground Based Air Defence) for both national and export requirements, followed by the two UK and Italy Government statement of intent, the two nations recently signed the implementing agreement for system components and technologies workshare as well as export campaigns and rights. In addition to being the system co-design authority (with MBDA UK) and manufacturer of the seeker for the CAMM ER, MBDA Italia is also responsible for the design and production of the CAMM ER launcher system, PDLT and national land-based (Army and Air Force) air defence systems for the Italian MoD, as well as the other sub-components of the Albatros NG system. The CAMM ER ammunitions for national and international customers will be assembled in Italy with components supplied by MBDA group. More specifically, the locally produced seeker and radome will be sent to the UK where the front-end will be assembled and returned to Italy. Here, the missile will be assembled, including the warhead integration at the Italian MoD joint armed forces advanced ammunition centre (CIMA, Centro Interforze Munizionamento Avanzato) near La Spezia. Thanks to the limited footprint, performances, easy integration and reduced acquisition and life cycle costs, the Albatros NG is a strong candidate not only for international customers but also for the Italian Navy. A wide range of shipbuilders on the international market, in Europe, Turkey, the Middle and the Far East, is offering small-to-medium naval platforms, requiring a surface-to-air missile system, as an alternative to US and other national and international solutions. Although the Italian Navy decided to extend the life of the Aster 15 and 30 munitions, the CAMM ER will be the perfect candidate for platforms like the PPA Light and the future European Patrol Corvette (EPC) joint-programme with France, Spain and Greece, providing in the Italian case a reduced logistic footprint, thanks to the sharing of subsystems with the PPA SAAM ESD and complete ammunition commonality with Army and Air Force systems, compared to the current Navy’s inventory of Aster 15/30 and ageing Aspide missiles.










Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine


By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG




www.edrmagazine.eu

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## TheDarkKnight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Like, seriously...what happened on this forum?
> 
> When the PN was negotiating for the MILGEM, we asked for VLS...we got VLS.
> 
> When the PN was seeking an aircraft for the LRMPA, we asked for Embraer...we got Embraer.
> 
> When we asked for CAMM-ER...we got CAMM-ER.
> 
> I hope the forthcoming Jinnah-class frigate gets Aster-30. There, I said it.
> 
> 
> The CEO of MBDA Italy visited NHQ in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italian Defence Industry Heads Visit Pakistan
> 
> 
> On 17 October 2019, the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi officially met with the President of the Italian Companies for Aerospace, Defence and Security (A...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org


I pray to Allah for a $ Trillion plus GDP, with debt to GDP ratio of less than 20% and tax to GDP ratio of 20%.

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## mingle

@Tipu7 So as U said news about PN start flowing I pretty sure PN will opt Italian Heli for both Type54 and Milgem Corvettes

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## Dreamer.

Sure don't give a positive rating to the guy who breaks the news but give one to the 2nd guy who repeats the same.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

Curious 

1. If PN Milgem Corvettes / Frigate is better than Ada Class, higher tonnage etc, then why PN simply not opt for the I - Class frigate, which already had VLS and which was approved for production for the Turkish Navy? 

2. Jinnah Class looks closer to the Tf - 2000 Frigate, 5000 Ton Class destroyer, with emphasis on AAW, with slight PN modifications e.g LACM?

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## Zarvan

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Curious
> 
> 1. If PN Milgem Corvettes / Frigate is better than Ada Class, higher tonnage etc, then why PN simply not opt for the I - Class frigate, which already had VLS and which was approved for production for the Turkish Navy?
> 
> 2. Jinnah Class looks closer to the Tf - 2000 Frigate, 5000 Ton Class destroyer, with emphasis on AAW, with slight PN modifications e.g LACM?


I really hope so. Jinah class should have VLS for both AAW and Land Attack Cruise Missiles. If it doesn't then it would total waste of money and energy.

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## Goritoes

Zarvan said:


> I really hope so. Jinah class should have VLS for both AAW and Land Attack Cruise Missiles. If it doesn't then it would total waste of money and energy.



You do know that New upcoming Subs will have the capability of launching CM's? Why is it that if future Frigate can't fire CM's a Waste of Time? Surface vessels are vulnerable to attacks from the enemy, while Subs are sneaky and under water, they can shoot and run deep without altering the enemy. The surface fleet is doing fine which they are supposed to, let them be the defensive fleet for whatever IN is planning to throw at PN, let the Modern AIP subs be our offensive punch, it will be much better.


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## iLION12345_1

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Curious
> 
> 1. If PN Milgem Corvettes / Frigate is better than Ada Class, higher tonnage etc, then why PN simply not opt for the I - Class frigate, which already had VLS and which was approved for production for the Turkish Navy?
> 
> 2. Jinnah Class looks closer to the Tf - 2000 Frigate, 5000 Ton Class destroyer, with emphasis on AAW, with slight PN modifications e.g LACM?


The requirements of the PN are different from the TN, these ships are nearly custom designs just for Us. Which makes them more useful for our navy’s roles. Many many underlying factors play a part here, everything from cost, timing, reliability, ease of manufacture and use, upgradability and so on, there’s large feasibility studies before any such decision is made. Rest assured they made the correct decision for their use case scenario.

Jinnah class may be based on either the Istanbul or the TF-2000, or maybe both, it’s not exactly the same as either of them, its customized for PNs specifications. it’s too soon to assume anything as all of what we hear about it is subject to change. We were all assuming HQ16 on these Milgems until just now. Given its size it’ll likely have all the capabilities that the navy needs it to have. Don’t forget that There are likely more large Chinese ships coming after Type 054AP too which might fill the role we want these ones to fill, or Vice versa.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Pakistan Navy Forum 'wishing well' strikes again.
> 
> Literally everything we wish for on this forum comes true apparently.
> 
> ...so...who wants aircraft carriers?
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @Falcon26 @CriticalThought



True story. I once said to my Chinese friends, once you are done with your current aircraft carrier, we will buy it from you. And they are like, you are going to get it anyway. What are we going to do with it? It has no use for us!

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## Zarvan

Goritoes said:


> You do know that New upcoming Subs will have the capability of launching CM's? Why is it that if future Frigate can't fire CM's a Waste of Time? Surface vessels are vulnerable to attacks from the enemy, while Subs are sneaky and under water, they can shoot and run deep without altering the enemy. The surface fleet is doing fine which they are supposed to, let them be the defensive fleet for whatever IN is planning to throw at PN, let the Modern AIP subs be our offensive punch, it will be much better.


Well because our mindset is based on those few hundred years ago old ships. In modern times ships won't be involved in dog fight. In modern times war and ships have changed. Now more and more ships will have VLS with cruise missiles like 1500 KM range which can hit targets on land as well as moving ships with exactly same accuracy. If you have ships with Air Defence system and let say 8 Anti Ship Missile which has only 400 KM range then what will happen is your enemy if it's bigger then you will come up with a Brahmos 1000 KM version and fire 8 towards your ship and your ship will only be able to stop 3 at best and others will hit you. But if you have Ships and Frigates which can fire 1600 to 2400 KM range missiles and they can hit targets deep inside India as well as its ships that will prevent from you getting engaged in Naval blockade. Ships who can remain as far away from your enemy is the safest bet. Plus initiating offensive war.

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## monitor

If Pakistan Wants to see Jinnah Class Frigate as its premiere surface ship design and build in {pakistan based on an existing design by a friendly and brotherly country I would like to see it a 5000-5500 ton class frigate with AAW and Land Attack Cruise Missiles.


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## Goritoes

Zarvan said:


> Well because our mindset is based on those few hundred years ago old ships. In modern times ships won't be involved in dog fight. In modern times war and ships have changed. Now more and more ships will have VLS with cruise missiles like 1500 KM range which can hit targets on land as well as moving ships with exactly same accuracy. If you ships with Air Defence system and let say 8 Anti Ship Missile which has only 400 KM range then what will happen is your enemy if it's bigger then you will come up with a Brahmos 1000 KM version and fire 8 towards your ship and your ship will only be able to stop 3 at best and others will hit you. But if you have Ships and Frigates which can fire 1600 to 2400 KM range missiles and they can hit targets deep inside India that will prevent from you getting engaged in Naval blockade. Ships who can remain as far away from your enemy is the safest bet. Plus initiating offensive war.



You miss the point in my post, Why do you think that PN is not looking to do exactly (Launching CM's) at India from a Distance using Subs? Submarines will be far more secured from the IN, having 4 heavy Frigates with the ability to fire CM range 1000+ will not give you an edge over IN, but 4 AIP equipped Subs, with 6-8 Babur III and torpedos will give nightmare to any IN CBG even attempting to do a blockade. CM from Surface ship is not something PN running after because they very well know that they easily achieve that from their newly ordered subs with far better protective positions (Deep Under Water).

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## Zarvan

Goritoes said:


> You miss the point in my post, Why do you think that PN is not looking to do exactly (Launching CM's) at India from a Distance using Subs? Submarines will be far more secured from the IN, having 4 heavy Frigates with the ability to fire CM range 1000+ will not give you an edge over IN, but 4 AIP equipped Subs, with 6-8 Babur III and torpedos will give nightmare to any IN CBG even attempting to do a blockade. CM from Surface ship is not something PN running after because they very well know that they easily achieve that from their newly ordered subs with far better protective positions (Deep Under Water).


Yes you should have Sub but that doesn't you should not have Ships. Every country is working on destroyers. China inducting two as we speak. USA launching several every year. So does India and other powers. You want CPEC you want to be a power you have to go for ships and destroyers which have both Air Defence system and Ship to Land Cruise Missile attack system


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## Goritoes

Zarvan said:


> Yes you should have Sub but that doesn't you should not have Ships. Every country is working on destroyers. China inducting two as we speak. USA launching several every year. So does India and other powers. You want CPEC you want to be a power you have to go for ships and destroyers which have both Air Defence system and Ship to Land Cruise Missile attack system



You just want Frigates to fire long-range CM because everyone else is inducting it? Mashallah Logic 
So I am glad that PN does not hire people like you who just want something that others have, instead of going for the stuff which best suits their needs and role... 
I keep telling you having a couple of Surface ships with the ability to fire Long Range CM will not give you an edge over the IN, Surface fleets are easy Targets especially for IN rising Anti Ship capabilities, so PN is looking towards their submarine fleet, remember the Gazi? One sub Paralyzed the entire IN, its fear was that strong even for a Sub that wasn't the top-notch of that time, now PN has signed for 8 Subs with AIP+Launch CM, they are testing it (Babur III). Submarines never even have to come to the surface to fire the CM, they can launch it while remaining hidden, Hell with the right strategy they can literally travel down to extreme close proximity of Indian naval bases, or Cities to launch missiles on their targets, but Surface fleets will always remain vulnerable to other Anti-ship missiles, IN has a large fleet which carries hundreds of Anti-ship missiles, many FAC's and anyone hit can literally disable your heavy Frigate with 1000 CM, then you have bring that ship back to base, while Subs can remain hidden, set up ambushes, and even take detours against any blockades (highly unlikely after the inductions of new subs). You are only repeating the same thing over and over again without giving a strong reason why PN should go for the surface fleet with the ability to launch CM's rather than going for Sumerage Fleets of Submarines which pose a far greater threat to any Navy let alone IN.


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## Zarvan

Goritoes said:


> You just want Frigates to fire long-range CM because everyone else is inducting it? Mashallah Logic
> So I am glad that PN does not hire people like you who just want something that others have, instead of going for the stuff which best suits their needs and role...
> I keep telling you having a couple of Surface ships with the ability to fire Long Range CM will not give you an edge over the IN, Surface fleets are easy Targets especially for IN rising Anti Ship capabilities, so PN is looking towards their submarine fleet, remember the Gazi? One sub Paralyzed the entire IN, its fear was that strong even for a Sub that wasn't the top-notch of that time, now PN has signed for 8 Subs with AIP+Launch CM, they are testing it (Babur III). Submarines never even have to come to the surface to fire the CM, they can launch it while remaining hidden, Hell with the right strategy they can literally travel down to extreme close proximity of Indian naval bases, or Cities to launch missiles on their targets, but Surface fleets will always remain vulnerable to other Anti-ship missiles, IN has a large fleet which carries hundreds of Anti-ship missiles, many FAC's and anyone hit can literally disable your heavy Frigate with 1000 CM, then you have bring that ship back to base, while Subs can remain hidden, set up ambushes, and even take detours against any blockades (highly unlikely after the inductions of new subs). You are only repeating the same thing over and over again without giving a strong reason why PN should go for the surface fleet with the ability to launch CM's rather than going for Sumerage Fleets of Submarines which pose a far greater threat to any Navy let alone IN.


What I want is Ships with those VLS which when needed can carry Air Defence missiles and when needed can carry Land Attack Cruise Misisles and if a ship has let say 24 or 30 VLS then divide them and put Land Attack Cruise Missiles in half and in other half put Air Defence missiles.

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## Goritoes

Zarvan said:


> What I want is Ships with those VLS which when needed can carry Air Defence missiles and when needed can carry Land Attack Cruise Misisles and if a ship has let say 24 or 30 VLS then divide them and put Land Attack Cruise Missiles in half and in other half put Air Defence missiles.



Ok...

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## Tipu7

Dreamer. said:


> Sure don't give a positive rating to the guy who breaks the news but give one to the 2nd guy who repeats the same.


Who broke the news first?


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## Reichsmarschall

Would it be safe to say these ships are now now better equipped and more lethal that type-54s?


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## Akh1112

Reichsmarschall said:


> Would it be safe to say these ships are now now better equipped and more lethal that type-54s?




yes.


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## Dreamer.

Tipu7 said:


> Who broke the news first?


@PakShaheen79 in post #816 in this thread, and with source links too! (You gave the rating to Post #817).





__





Pakistan-Turkey 4 Milgem Ada Class Corvettes Contract - Construction started


SYLVER-A43 supports CAMM, Mica, Crotale and Aster-15. Two sets of 8 VLS tubes: total 16 tubes. In case of CAMM: Each tube can carry four missile. Therefore, 16X4 = 64 missiles in total per ship. In case of Crotale, Aster-15 and Mica, One missile per tube, totalling 16 missiles per ship. Is...



defence.pk

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## Yasser76

Interesting that PN is still taking a dual approach to weapons supply choosing both NATO standard and Chinese when it comes to Frigates. . This makes me think the next batch of Subs after Hangor may well be Turkish/Italian.

Increasingly it seems Pak Armed forces will remain on course to continue to have western and Chinese systems and not go completely Chinese.

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## iLION12345_1

Yasser76 said:


> Interesting that PN is still taking a dual approach to weapons supply choosing both NATO standard and Chinese when it comes to Frigates. . This makes me think the next batch of Subs after Hangor may well be Turkish/Italian.
> 
> Increasingly it seems Pak Armed forces will remain on course to continue to have western and Chinese systems and not go completely Chinese.


It’s always good to not put all your eggs in one basket, Pakistan has shown interest in the MILDEN project, that could turn into a good long-term submarine project for the country after the Hangors.

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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> yes.


In which domain ..... ??

just on the basis of air defence missiles don't you think it would be a bold claim .... ???

secondly it is still not clear that which VLS will be used to install Albratros NG, my bet is on the dedicated single individual cell of CAMM missiles rather on the US or French VLS systems which offer quad-pack capability. In this case the maximum number of air defence missile would be 16 as shown in CGI of Pakistan's Milgem class ships ....

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

It has become clear that an active phased array radar named Cenk will be used in İ class frigates. I wish there was an AESA in Pakistan's ships, regardless of the manufacturer.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> It has become clear that an active phased array radar named Cenk will be used in İ class frigates. I wish there was an AESA in Pakistan's ships, regardless of the manufacturer.


Please share Cenk AESA radar specs if available

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Please share Cenk AESA radar specs if available




Unofficially, it is expected to be a radar with a range of 220-250 km. 

This is the only image officially shown by Aselsan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> It has become clear that an active phased array radar named Cenk will be used in İ class frigates. I wish there was an AESA in Pakistan's ships, regardless of the manufacturer.


Well, the Pakistan Navy forum has a penchant for making dreams come through. The CAMM-ER news was a bit unlikely, so you never know, the PN might swap out the SMART-S Mk2 with an AESA radar (e.g., Sea Giraffe 4, TRML-4D, or Cenk).

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, the Pakistan Navy forum has a penchant for making dreams come through. The CAMM-ER news was a bit unlikely, so you never know, the PN might swap out the SMART-S Mk2 with an AESA radar (e.g., Sea Giraffe 4, TRML-4D, or Cenk).



On a level and I'm being serious they listen i.e. the higher ups. If not take everything on board but food for thought.....


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## TNT

Its good that we have chinese and Turkish weapons and systems in PN but what about the interoperability between them? The PN need to have some level of interoperability between chinese systems and Turkish ones or else we wont be fully utilizing the capabilities of the diverse fleet.


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## Yasser76

With it looking like Z-9 chopper for Chinese frigates it will be interesting to see what chopper PN chooses for MILGEM, Z-9 will be incompatible with all the NATO systems in it. My best is on Wildcat, SH-60 (unlikley I think) or we pay Italy to develop a Naval version of AW139


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## Waterboy

I


waz said:


> On a level and I'm being serious they listen i.e. the higher ups. If not take everything on board but food for thought.....


I feel like PAF and navy people are more competent and professional. They do think critically and end up getting good stuff. The army generals on the other hand have their own vested interests, no mraps, no attack helicopter, aging transport heli fleet are just some examples


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## Zarvan

The only thing left about these ships are there helicopters. We still don't know which helicopter will be used on these ships ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> With it looking like Z-9 chopper for Chinese frigates it will be interesting to see what chopper PN chooses for MILGEM, Z-9 will be incompatible with all the NATO systems in it. My best is on Wildcat, SH-60 (unlikley I think) or we pay Italy to develop a Naval version of AW139


If the PAA had received their T129s, I think the PN would've acquired the AW159 -- the two platforms use the same engine. However, that aside, I think the AW159 has a solid shot. The unit cost is around $50 m all-in, and the PN could probably source a credit line from the UK and Italy.

IMHO, the PN will work to get 12 AW159s (for the MILGEM corvettes and Jinnah-class frigates) and 6 AW101s through this decade.

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## Tipu7

You know, the tri services rarely bother with supply-spare chain commonality. Each branch think it knows the best, and it will acquire its own solution, no matter how much out of box. 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the PAA had received their T129s, I think the PN would've acquired the AW159 -- the two platforms use the same engine. However, that aside, I think the AW159 has a solid shot. The unit cost is around $50 m all-in, and the PN could probably source a credit line from the UK and Italy.
> 
> IMHO, the PN will work to get 12 AW159s (for the MILGEM corvettes and Jinnah-class frigates) and 6 AW101s through this decade.


We should start advocating for AW-159. Afterall, several times our advocacy on this forum has been realized by the navy. 😂

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> You know, the tri services rarely bother with supply-spare chain commonality. Each branch think it knows the best, and it will acquire its own solution, no matter how much out of box.
> 
> We should start advocating for AW-159. Afterall, several times our advocacy on this forum has been realized by the navy. 😂


In the case of the AW159 and T129, the issue was less of inter-services commonality and more of taking advantage of PAC's CTS800 MRO. But as I suggested above, even with no PAA T129s, the PN will still look at the AW159.

The one dark horse would be the AW149.

The PN prefers a 9-10-ton helicopter. So a navalized AW149 could be a bet. 

Since this will be a new configuration, the PN could also ask Leonardo to add some PN-specific customizations (e.g. making them compatible with Turkey's AShMs and torpedoes, instead of only MBDA/Leonardo ones). The OEM could be open to sharing the NRE cost since they can offer the platform to other customers.

Going with the AW149 would also eliminate the need for the AW101. The AW149 can work as the principal anti-ship, anti-sub, CSAR, and marines support helicopter. IMHO 18 AW149s for $50-60 m each could also be an option.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the case of the AW159 and T129, the issue was less of inter-services commonality and more of taking advantage of PAC's CTS800 MRO. But as I suggested above, even with no PAA T129s, the PN will still look at the AW159.
> 
> The one dark horse would be the AW149.
> 
> The PN prefers a 9-10-ton helicopter. So a navalized AW149 could be a bet.
> 
> Since this will be a new configuration, the PN could also ask Leonardo to add some PN-specific customizations (e.g. making them compatible with Turkey's AShMs and torpedoes, instead of only MBDA/Leonardo ones). The OEM could be open to sharing the NRE cost since they can offer the platform to other customers.
> 
> Going with the AW149 would also eliminate the need for the AW101. The AW149 can work as the principal anti-ship, anti-sub, CSAR, and marines support helicopter. IMHO 18 AW149s for $50-60 m each could also be an option.



As others have mentioned, it never made sense to me why Pakistan hasn’t taken a commonality approach among the tri-service in its helicopter procurement. Like Turkey, Pakistan could have manufactured these helicopters domestically and used them for both military and civilian applications. The cost of the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK initial deal to transfer the technology rights to Turkey cost $1.2 billion. There’s no question that Pakistan could have obtained a similar deal from Italy.

Yet again, Pakistan has opted for the more expensive and inefficient option of off-shelf procurement rather than making a cost effective and smart decision anchored on a long-term vision.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Falcon26 said:


> As others have mentioned, it never made sense to me why Pakistan hasn’t taken a commonality approach among the tri-service in its helicopter procurement. Like Turkey, Pakistan could have manufactured these helicopters domestically and used them for both military and civilian applications. The cost of the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK initial deal to transfer the technology rights to Turkey cost $1.2 billion. There’s no question that Pakistan could have obtained a similar deal from Italy.
> 
> Yet again, Pakistan has opted for the more expensive and inefficient option of off-shelf procurement rather than making a cost effective and smart decision anchored on a long-term vision.




TAI had already produced and delivered over 300 AW hulls to Italy, likewise since they already had all their avionics in place, they went this route. Of course, you can manufacture any helicopter domestically, it can be any western or eastern manufacturer, but it's a mystery how much it will help you when you get everything out of the way.

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## Falcon26

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TAI had already produced and delivered over 300 AW hulls to Italy, likewise since they already had all their avionics in place, they went this route. Of course, you can manufacture any helicopter domestically, it can be any western or eastern manufacturer, but it's a mystery how much it will help you when you get everything out of the way.



The purpose of the post wasn’t to compare Turkey and Pakistan per say, but rather to shed light on the differences between procurement philosophy of the countries.

Obviously, Turkey had certain inherent advantages viz a viz Pakistan, but nothing insurmountable had Pakistan adopted a forward-looking mindset rather than the present-constrained approach that has come to define its procurement philosophy.

But then the entire Pakistan economy is a consumption based, rather than production, so there might be deeply engrained societal underpinnings that inform the procurement philosophy of Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> As others have mentioned, it never made sense to me why Pakistan hasn’t taken a commonality approach among the tri-service in its helicopter procurement. Like Turkey, Pakistan could have manufactured these helicopters domestically and used them for both military and civilian applications. The cost of the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK initial deal to transfer the technology rights to Turkey cost $1.2 billion. There’s no question that Pakistan could have obtained a similar deal from Italy.
> 
> Yet again, Pakistan has opted for the more expensive and inefficient option of off-shelf procurement rather than making a cost effective and smart decision anchored on a long-term vision.


It likely stems from a lack of trust in the political leadership (very much earned) and an unwillingness to concede authority to one Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), which is understandable.

Ideally, the PM/President and CDS would formulate a defence strategy for the next 5-10 years. In that strategy, they will add goals like commonality, local manufacturing, R&D, etc.

To ensure accountability, we would also have a CAG-like office to make sure both the defence strategy is tenable and that we are implementing it according to plan and within budget. And if parts of the plan are at risk of going off the rails or changing, the CAG would investigate why and find people to blame.

If we get Pakistan's governing in order, then I think the rest -- i.e., commonality, industry-first approach, etc -- will follow.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the case of the AW159 and T129, the issue was less of inter-services commonality and more of taking advantage of PAC's CTS800 MRO. But as I suggested above, even with no PAA T129s, the PN will still look at the AW159.
> 
> The one dark horse would be the AW149.
> 
> The PN prefers a 9-10-ton helicopter. So a navalized AW149 could be a bet.
> 
> Since this will be a new configuration, the PN could also ask Leonardo to add some PN-specific customizations (e.g. making them compatible with Turkey's AShMs and torpedoes, instead of only MBDA/Leonardo ones). The OEM could be open to sharing the NRE cost since they can offer the platform to other customers.
> 
> Going with the AW149 would also eliminate the need for the AW101. The AW149 can work as the principal anti-ship, anti-sub, CSAR, and marines support helicopter. IMHO 18 AW149s for $50-60 m each could also be an option.


But AW-149 is roughly 50% smaller than AW-101. With increment in size of Marines, special forces and development of infrastructure at three different locations, Navy needs a robust troop/cargo rotary wing carrier fleet. This is where AW-101 steps in as direct replacement of Sea Kings. AW-149 is bit small for this role. 

As far as ASW from a Western platform like Milgem is concerned, AW-159 is there to play its role. In the presence of AW-159 as dedicated ASW helicopter, I (IMO) will give no credible consideration to attempting a blend of two different requirements into one platform. It will increase overall cost and will cause timeline delays. 

I assume, PN is for time being looking for 4 squadrons of helicopter which will eventually expand to 6. 2X Z-9C/D, 1X AW-101 and 1X AW159 can be the right combination. In future, more squadrons of existing platform could be raised depending upon requirements.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> But AW-149 is roughly 50% smaller than AW-101. With increment in size of Marines, special forces and development of infrastructure at three different locations, Navy needs a robust troop/cargo rotary wing carrier fleet. This is where AW-101 steps in as direct replacement of Sea Kings. AW-149 is bit small for this role.
> 
> As far as ASW from a Western platform like Milgem is concerned, AW-159 is there to play its role. In the presence of AW-159 as dedicated ASW helicopter, I (IMO) will give no credible consideration to attempting a blend of two different requirements into one platform. It will increase overall cost and will cause timeline delays.
> 
> I assume, PN is for time being looking for 4 squadrons of helicopter which will eventually expand to 6. 2X Z-9C/D, 1X AW-101 and 1X AW159 can be the right combination. In future, more squadrons of existing platform could be raised depending upon requirements.


The individual Sea King can carry more troops, but the troop-capable Sea King force in PN is very small.

The alternate approach is to have more helicopters available -- albeit with a medium-lift (12-16 troop) -- capacity on hand. The operating cost of the AW149 is also lower thanks to heavier COTS use. In the long-term, it's easier to add more of this type than specialized platforms like AW101 and AW159. Granted, the ASW/AShW variant of AW149 isn't going to carry troops; but the two variants would still be identical from a maintenance and support standpoint.

Besides, the risk of the AW101 and AW159 is actually long-term operating cost, it will be higher than the AW149 (the latter was designed to be low-cost upfront and through-life). Finally, having more helicopters on hand helps offset for downtime and non-availability rates. The PN is (or at least was) thinking along the Sea Hawk and Black Hawk lines.

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> But AW-149 is roughly 50% smaller than AW-101. With increment in size of Marines, special forces and development of infrastructure at three different locations, Navy needs a robust troop/cargo rotary wing carrier fleet. This is where AW-101 steps in as direct replacement of Sea Kings. AW-149 is bit small for this role.
> 
> As far as ASW from a Western platform like Milgem is concerned, AW-159 is there to play its role. In the presence of AW-159 as dedicated ASW helicopter, I (IMO) will give no credible consideration to attempting a blend of two different requirements into one platform. It will increase overall cost and will cause timeline delays.
> 
> I assume, PN is for time being looking for 4 squadrons of helicopter which will eventually expand to 6. 2X Z-9C/D, 1X AW-101 and 1X AW159 can be the right combination. In future, more squadrons of existing platform could be raised depending upon requirements.


What is sqr size for PN?


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## syed_yusuf

Why not considered z20


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> What is sqr size for PN?


6 - 8 units.

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## Rafi

We will hear some good news regarding choppers, InshAllah.

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## ziaulislam

Falcon26 said:


> As others have mentioned, it never made sense to me why Pakistan hasn’t taken a commonality approach among the tri-service in its helicopter procurement. Like Turkey, Pakistan could have manufactured these helicopters domestically and used them for both military and civilian applications. The cost of the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK initial deal to transfer the technology rights to Turkey cost $1.2 billion. There’s no question that Pakistan could have obtained a similar deal from Italy.
> 
> Yet again, Pakistan has opted for the more expensive and inefficient option of off-shelf procurement rather than making a cost effective and smart decision anchored on a long-term vision.


This is true everywhere
One of the reason is small incremental spending rather then 1 time deal

Look at our tanks..and so many other equipment


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## Tipu7

Rafi said:


> We will hear some good news regarding choppers, InshAllah.


انشاء اللہ

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the PAA had received their T129s, I think the PN would've acquired the AW159 -- the two platforms use the same engine. However, that aside, I think the AW159 has a solid shot. The unit cost is around $50 m all-in, and the PN could probably source a credit line from the UK and Italy.
> 
> IMHO, the PN will work to get 12 AW159s (for the MILGEM corvettes and Jinnah-class frigates) and 6 AW101s through this decade.



As-159 is basically British Aws heli ie Lynx modified version that pn was trying to get rid of [emoji6]


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## mingle

Rafi said:


> We will hear some good news regarding choppers, InshAllah.


About PN or PAA?


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## Rafi

mingle said:


> About PN or PAA?



Both.

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> Both.


Eager especially PAA what shows Up??


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## Yasser76

khanasifm said:


> As-159 is basically British Aws heli ie Lynx modified version that pn was trying to get rid of [emoji6]



No, very different beast all together. Basic airframe the same but very different. Like camparing F-15A with F-15Q

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## Yasser76

Steel cut on 4th MILGEM at Karachi, pic shows launchers for CAMM-ER and what I think maybe Wild Cat AW159!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404765702465196036

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Steel cut on 4th MILGEM at Karachi, pic shows launchers for CAMM-ER and what I think maybe Wild Cat AW159!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404765702465196036


they change them every time wtf.

Also, thats the proprietary British VLS which absolutely sucks, i sincerely hope thats not what is selected. I measured the cutout to be Sylver A43 size. Aside from that they speced 16 missiles with only 12 being shown there.


more importantly, those AShM canisters imply its gonna be a new missile, probably PNs supersonic one.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

*STEEL CUTTING OF MILGEM CLASS CORVETTE HELD AT KARACHI SHIPYARD & ENGINEERING WORKS*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404769253518155776

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404769256177287174

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404769258089992196

#SteelCuttingCeremony of fourth MILGEM Class Corvettes for Pakistan Navy was held at #Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW), Pakistan. Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi graced the occasion as Chief Guest. The event marked an important milestone in the construction schedule for fourth MILGEM Corvette for PN. Pakistan Navy has concluded contract with M/s ASFAT for construction of 04 x corvettes out of which two are being constructed at Istanbul Naval Shipyard whereas the remaining two at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. These corvettes will be fitted with state-of-art Surface, Sub-Surface and Anti-Air Weapons & Sensors, integrated through an advanced Network Centric Combat Management System. Speaking at the occasion, Chief of the Naval Staff expressed that it is a matter of pride to witness the Steel Cutting of fourth PN MILGEM Corvettes at KS&EW. He added that it is a historic occasion as Ministry of Defence Production, Pakistan Navy, Karachi Shipyard and M/s ASFAT of Turkey have joined hands for construction of this Corvette. The Admiral in his address said that today's event is a defining moment to further cement the bond of friendship between the two strategically aligned nations with common shared values, culture and principles. Naval Chief acknowledged the commitment and dedication of KS&EW and M/s ASFAT for meeting the challenging construction schedule despite ongoing global pandemic. The induction of MILGEM Corvettes will significantly enhance maritime defence and deterrence capabilities of Pakistan Navy. These corvettes will become a core element of PN's kinetic response to traditional and non-traditional challenges and to maintain balance of power in the Indian Ocean Region.

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## gmres

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Curious
> 
> 1. If PN Milgem Corvettes / Frigate is better than Ada Class, higher tonnage etc, then why PN simply not opt for the I - Class frigate, which already had VLS and which was approved for production for the Turkish Navy?
> 
> 2. Jinnah Class looks closer to the Tf - 2000 Frigate, 5000 Ton Class destroyer, with emphasis on AAW, with slight PN modifications e.g LACM?


TF-2000 is above 7000 tonnes of full displacement. 

Ada Class was designed to fulfill a role, ASW-Escort and Littoral Patrol corvette.

I Class was re-designed Ada class, customized for Turkish Navy's need as an escort frigate. I class also incorporates a new integrated mast with additional bays for sensors. It was aimed to have 16/32 diagonal launcher tubes, designed to have superior sea-keeping for blue water operations.

Jinnah Class was a re-designed Ada class, customized for Pakistan Navy's need with customized equipment's. 

Ada class is also customized as intelligence ship and OPV for Turkish Navy, and corvettes for Ukraine.


Akh1112 said:


> they change them every time wtf.
> 
> Also, thats the proprietary British VLS which absolutely sucks, i sincerely hope thats not what is selected. I measured the cutout to be Sylver A43 size. Aside from that they speced 16 missiles with only 12 being shown there.
> 
> 
> more importantly, those AShM canisters imply its gonna be a new missile, probably PNs supersonic one.


As requested by Pakistan 
The design has gone through one major re-design, 2 minor re-design. Great opportunity for future cooperation as Both engineers work on the project.

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## Tipu7

Yasser76 said:


> Steel cut on 4th MILGEM at Karachi, pic shows launchers for CAMM-ER and what I think maybe Wild Cat AW159!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404765702465196036


So observations,
Each Pak-Milgem will be equipped with 12 GWS-26 VLS instead of 16 Sylver-A43 VLS. So total 12 missiles per ship.
The fire control radars have been removed for good as active RF CAMM-ER will work using two way secure data link with Smart-S radar of the warship.

12 is kinda small number. The figure of 16 was good enough. Looks like price adjustment measure... Still, an excellent warship for its size.

We will learn about its anti-ship missiles soon.

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## gmres

Tipu7 said:


> So observations,
> Each Pak-Milgem will be equipped with 12 GWS-26 VLS instead of 16 Sylver-A43 VLS. So total 12 missiles per ship.
> The fire control radars have been removed for good as active RF CAMM-ER will work using two way secure data link with Smart-S radar of the warship.
> 
> 12 is kinda small number. The figure of 16 was good enough. Looks like price adjustment measure... Still, an excellent warship for its size.
> 
> We will learn about its anti-ship missiles soon.
> 
> View attachment 753648


Also Chinese 3D search radar, target illumination radars were removed. Now it looks clean. 
Personally i was expecting them to keep VLS platform, make it lower and fill it with 24-32 Camm-ER.


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> they change them every time wtf.
> 
> Also, thats the proprietary British VLS which absolutely sucks, i sincerely hope thats not what is selected. I measured the cutout to be Sylver A43 size. Aside from that they speced 16 missiles with only 12 being shown there.
> 
> 
> more importantly, those AShM canisters imply its gonna be a new missile, probably PNs supersonic one.




Well it is a British/Italian missile so we may of had no choice but to use their own VLS as opposed to they Turkish one.

On another note, if that is a Wild Cat, then the UK selling us modern SAMs and choppers is a massive change as they had been very pro Indian in their stance over last 10 years

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## Dreamer.

Tipu7 said:


> So observations,
> Each Pak-Milgem will be equipped with 12 GWS-26 VLS instead of 16 Sylver-A43 VLS. So total 12 missiles per ship.
> The fire control radars have been removed for good as active RF CAMM-ER will work using two way secure data link with Smart-S radar of the warship.
> 
> 12 is kinda small number. The figure of 16 was good enough. Looks like price adjustment measure... Still, an excellent warship for its size.
> 
> We will learn about its anti-ship missiles soon.
> 
> View attachment 753648


What does the picture show?


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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Well it is a British/Italian missile so we may of had no choice but to use their own VLS as opposed to they Turkish one.
> 
> On another note, if that is a Wild Cat, then the UK selling us modern SAMs and choppers is a massive change as they had been very pro Indian in their stance over last 10 years




Nobody said it would be Turk VLS, i said Sylver A43. Aside from that, this is an Italian project and not a british one, the workshare and funding is majority Italian.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Well it is a British/Italian missile so we may of had no choice but to use their own VLS as opposed to they Turkish one.
> 
> On another note, if that is a Wild Cat, then the UK selling us modern SAMs and choppers is a massive change as they had been very pro Indian in their stance over last 10 years


IMHO...When the PN picked the CAMM-ER, I think MBDA Italy said, "we can guarantee this VLS right now, but we'll work on getting approvals for the SYLVER in the mean time." So the PN probably went with what's sure (and avoid T129-type issues), but it's still hoping for the SYLVER.

@Akh1112 The CAMM-ER isn't tied to one specific VLS type.

The end-user can ask for Mk41 or SYLVER. It's possible that the Turkish VLS can also be an option for this provided it meets the missile's specifications and someone pays up for NREs of integrating it.

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> Nobody said it would be Turk VLS, i said Sylver A43. Aside from that, this is an Italian project and not a british one, the workshare and funding is majority Italian.



It has British input and it may means the VLS was already adapted and a good off the shelf solution, PN may of had to pay for integrating with another, but why do that if it is working perfectly for the Royal Navy?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> It has British input and it may means the VLS was already adapted and a good off the shelf solution, PN may of had to pay for integrating with another, but why do that if it is working perfectly for the Royal Navy?


Whatever case, can we all agree the project manager for the PN MILGEM hates his life with all of these random scope changes. Man joined thinking it'd be a carbon copy version of Turkey's ASW Ada, but then added VLS, enlarged the ship, and now changed the SAMs multiple times. @SQ8

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO...When the PN picked the CAMM-ER, I think MBDA Italy said, "we can guarantee this VLS right now, but we'll work on getting approvals for the SYLVER in the mean time." So the PN probably went with what's sure (and avoid T129-type issues), but it's still hoping for the SYLVER.
> 
> @Akh1112 The CAMM-ER isn't tied to one specific VLS type.
> 
> The end-user can ask for Mk41 or SYLVER. It's possible that the Turkish VLS can also be an option for this provided it meets the missile's specifications and someone pays up for NREs of integrating it.




It isnt certified yet for numerous types, just ExLS at the moment from memory, potentially MK41


Dreamer. said:


> What does the picture show?



the worlds stupidest VLS design, a system on par weight and dimensions wise to MK41 while providing 1/4th the max missile capacity.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Whatever case, can we all agree the project manager for the PN MILGEM hates his life with all of these random scope changes. Man joined thinking it'd be a carbon copy version of Turkey's ASW Ada, but then added VLS, enlarged the ship, and now changed the SAMs multiple times. @SQ8

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## Dreamer.

Akh1112 said:


> the worlds stupidest VLS design, a system on par weight and dimensions wise to MK41 while providing 1/4th the max missile capacity.


Which one is it, does it have a name? And any idea what ship it is on , in the picture?


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## Akh1112

Dreamer. said:


> Which one is it, does it have a name? And any idea what ship it is on , in the picture?




GWS-26, Type 21, Type 31 and Type-26

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## Tipu7

Akh1112 said:


> It isnt certified yet for numerous types, just ExLS at the moment from memory, potentially MK41
> 
> 
> the worlds stupidest VLS design, a system on par weight and dimensions wise to MK41 while providing 1/4th the max missile capacity.


We still don't know for sure that either Sylver-A43 was being followed in first place. 
It was either the combo of H/AKJ-16 and HHQ-16, or GWS-26 and CAMM-ER. PN eventually followed the better of two.


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## Akh1112

Tipu7 said:


> We still don't know for sure that either Sylver-A43 was being followed in first place.
> It was either the combo of H/AKJ-16 and HHQ-16, or GWS-26 and CAMM-ER. PN eventually followed the better of two.




i measured the VLS cutout and its exactly the dimensions of the a43. Also, if it was to follow this arrangement we would have seen two smaller offset cutouts as opposed to one large centralized cutout

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## Scorpiooo

So all these 4 have same weaponry specifications or we can see some change


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## Tipu7

I don't think it's a good idea to carve out any solid answer based upon a 'loosely made' CGI model. 



Akh1112 said:


> i measured the VLS cutout and its exactly the dimensions of the a43. Also, if it was to follow this arrangement we would have seen two smaller offset cutouts as opposed to one large centralized cutout

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Whatever case, can we all agree the project manager for the PN MILGEM hates his life with all of these random scope changes. Man joined thinking it'd be a carbon copy version of Turkey's ASW Ada, but then added VLS, enlarged the ship, and now changed the SAMs multiple times. @SQ8







All we want is a quad packed (at least) 16 cell VLS and an AESA

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> All we want is a quad packed (at least) 16 cell VLS and an AESA


PN MILGEM Meeting

Turkish Project Manager: So, this is a streamlined anti-sub corvette?

PN Admiral: Yes, we are finalizing the requirements. Speak to the Commodore?

PN Commodore: *reading Defence.pk*

@JamD @Yasser76

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PN MILGEM Meeting
> 
> Turkish Project Manager: So, this is a streamlined anti-sub corvette?
> 
> PN Admiral: Yes, we are finalizing the requirements. Speak to the Commodore?
> 
> PN Commodore: *reading Defence.pk*
> 
> @JamD @Yasser76


Say… can it also do AAW


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## Akh1112

Tipu7 said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to carve out any solid answer based upon a 'loosely made' CGI model.




Im talking about satellite imagery.


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## Dreamer.

Akh1112 said:


> Im talking about satellite imagery.



Where would you get satellite imagery of VLS that isn't even installed yet? Which is what tipu is referring to. i.e. The pictures of pakistani milgem should not be taken as accurate models but only as loosely made CGI.

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## Akh1112

Dreamer. said:


> Where would you get satellite imagery of VLS that isn't even installed yet? Which is what tipu is referring to. i.e. The pictures of pakistani milgem should not be taken as accurate models but only as loosely made CGI.




The cutout for the VLS...

But yes, nobody is arguing that they are nothing more than just cgi for now, hence why i said reality seems different

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## Tipu7

You won't believe it, but some geeks in military do keep an eye on this forum for some ideas. 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PN MILGEM Meeting
> 
> Turkish Project Manager: So, this is a streamlined anti-sub corvette?
> 
> PN Admiral: Yes, we are finalizing the requirements. Speak to the Commodore?
> 
> PN Commodore: *reading Defence.pk*
> 
> @JamD @Yasser76

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TheDarkKnight said:


> I pray to Allah for a $ Trillion plus GDP, with debt to GDP ratio of less than 20% and tax to GDP ratio of 20%.


With Afganistan consolidated, CPEC energized and the undocumented economy curtailed via automation it's quite plausible within the next 5 years...

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## gmres

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PN MILGEM Meeting
> 
> Turkish Project Manager: So, this is a streamlined anti-sub corvette?
> 
> PN Admiral: Yes, we are finalizing the requirements. Speak to the Commodore?
> 
> PN Commodore: *reading Defence.pk*
> 
> @JamD @Yasser76


I can assure you Turkish naval architects and project managers are quite familiar with changes on the go.Turkish shipbuilding industry still shines despite of cheaper and quicker solutions in asia for this reason. customization and tailoring is their upper hand , which they can do even while during the construction.
So if it is what those people are good at it, changing design or even remaking some parts on during construction

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## Bilal.

Tipu7 said:


> You won't believe it, but some geeks in military do keep an eye on this forum for some ideas.


So PDF is becoming the RAND corporation of Pakistan

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## ghazi52

Steel Cutting ceremony of fourth MILGEM Class Corvettes for Pakistan Navy was held at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW), Pakistan. Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi graced the occasion as Chief Guest.
The event marked an important milestone in the construction schedule for fourth MILGEM Corvette for PN. Pakistan Navy has concluded contract with M/s ASFAT for construction of 04 x corvettes out of which two are being constructed at Istanbul Naval Shipyard whereas the remaining two at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. These corvettes will be fitted with state-of-art Surface, Sub-Surface and Anti-Air Weapons & Sensors, integrated through an advanced Network Centric Combat Management System.
Speaking at the occasion, Chief of the Naval Staff expressed that it is a matter of pride to witness the Steel Cutting of fourth PN MILGEM Corvettes at KS&EW. He added that it is a historic occasion as Ministry of Defence Production, Pakistan Navy, Karachi Shipyard and M/s ASFAT of Turkey have joined hands for construction of this Corvette. The Admiral in his address said that today's event is a defining moment to further cement the bond of friendship between the two strategically aligned nations with common shared values, culture and principles. Naval Chief acknowledged the commitment and dedication of KS&EW and M/s ASFAT for meeting the challenging construction schedule despite ongoing global pandemic.
The induction of MILGEM Corvettes will significantly enhance maritime defence and deterrence capabilities of Pakistan Navy. These corvettes will become a core element of PN's kinetic response to traditional and non-traditional challenges and to maintain balance of power in the Indian Ocean Region.

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## Basel

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Meanwhile, according to Turkish sources, Chinese missiles will not be used on board. Albatros NG is expected to be the first platform of Pakistan's ADA. It is stated that the fire control radars will also be removed.



It seems MBDA CEO visited to workout the deal, also CAMM-ER may become what ESSM block-2 is for NATO navies.

Question is can CAMM-ER handle future threats like drone swarms, Hypersonic and high supersonic AShMs?

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## Basel

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Unofficially, it is expected to be a radar with a range of 220-250 km.
> 
> This is the only image officially shown by Aselsan.



What is different between SMART-S Mk-2 and aforesaid radar??


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Basel said:


> What is different between SMART-S Mk-2 and aforesaid radar??




With the simplest logic, each module dynamically provides the power output as desired in an AESA type radar. In this way, you can adjust the range/resolution difference dynamically when needed, much more easily than a Pesa type radar, it is also more resistant to indirect EW attacks.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The individual Sea King can carry more troops, but the troop-capable Sea King force in PN is very small.
> 
> The alternate approach is to have more helicopters available -- albeit with a medium-lift (12-16 troop) -- capacity on hand. The operating cost of the AW149 is also lower thanks to heavier COTS use. In the long-term, it's easier to add more of this type than specialized platforms like AW101 and AW159. Granted, the ASW/AShW variant of AW149 isn't going to carry troops; but the two variants would still be identical from a maintenance and support standpoint.
> 
> Besides, the risk of the AW101 and AW159 is actually long-term operating cost, it will be higher than the AW149 (the latter was designed to be low-cost upfront and through-life). Finally, having more helicopters on hand helps offset for downtime and non-availability rates. The PN is (or at least was) thinking along the Sea Hawk and Black Hawk lines.


Isnt AW-189 a better option for troop carrying then the 149? And with more operators.

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## xbat

is that HARBA missile that big? i doubt it, overall width of the ship is 14mt and harba looks 14 mt long too and launcher box looks 1,5mtx1,5mt for me.


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## Akh1112

xbat said:


> is that HARBA missile that big? i doubt it, overall width of the ship is 14mt and harba looks 14 mt long too and launcher box looks 1,5mtx1,5mt for me.




Harbah is huge but thats not a harbah canister. Thatll be the new supersonic ascm

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## HRK

xbat said:


> is that HARBA missile that big? i doubt it, overall width of the ship is 14mt and harba looks 14 mt long too and launcher box looks 1,5mtx1,5mt for me.


PN Milgem might carry new supersonic anti-ship missile named SMASH

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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> PN Milgem might carry new supersonic anti-ship missile named SMASH




where did the name come from


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## JamD

Akh1112 said:


> where did the name come from





Ark_Angel said:


> Original In House Project. Its Designated *SMASH: Supersonic Missile Anti-Ship*.





Ark_Angel said:


> P-282 is a separate program. *SMASH is separate. SmASH is super sonic anti ship missile that we’ll be outfitting on 1 of the new vessels that we’ll be acquiring. *

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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> where did the name come from


plz see JamD post below your post

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## Tipu7

Thanks for reminding the Missile name @HRK , I was trying my best to remember it, but couldn't help myself. 
The information about Air Defense and Ship Borne Cruise Missile was missing till now.
Anyway, with this piece of information, I have completed the long pending updated label work of Pakistan Navy Milgem corvette.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Isnt AW-189 a better option for troop carrying then the 149? And with more operators.


They seem very close to identical.

I think Leonardo designed the AW189 for offshore rig operations and SAR.

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 753973


Same for all 4 or for 3 , as intially shared info 4th will have some different customiztion for base of Jinnah


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> Same for all 4 or for 3 , as intially shared info 4th will have some different customiztion for base of Jinnah


All four warships will have same configuration. 
Currently, the hulls are under construction, and Ship's super structure is modular enough to compensate final limited structural updates.

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## Dreamer.

Tipu7 said:


> All four warships will have same configuration.
> Currently, the hulls are under construction, and Ship's super structure is modular enough to compensate final limited structural updates.


So only 12 VLS instead of 16? Is that confirmed? 
And will they be quad-packed or is that unlikely?


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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> All four warships will have same configuration.
> Currently, the hulls are under construction, and Ship's super structure is modular enough to compensate final limited structural updates.


So 4th ship customisation news actually was for Jinnah class 1st ship related.. in simple words


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Steel cut on 4th MILGEM at Karachi, pic shows launchers for CAMM-ER and what I think maybe Wild Cat AW159!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404765702465196036


Its also probably be quad packed?
That is very strong fire power


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> So 4th ship customisation news actually was for Jinnah class 1st ship related.. in simple words


Once all these four Milgem corvettes will materialize, the Jinnah class frigate project will initiate.
The frigates, AFAIK, will be constructed in new Shipyard.



Dreamer. said:


> So only 12 VLS instead of 16? Is that confirmed?
> And will they be quad-packed or is that unlikely?


Yes, 12 GWS-26 VLS tubes for one CAMM-ER each, totalling 12 missiles per ship. No Quad configuration.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Once all these four Milgem corvettes will materialize, the Jinnah class frigate project will initiate.
> The frigates, AFAIK, will be constructed in new Shipyard.
> 
> 
> Yes, 12 GWS-26 VLS tubs for one CAMM-ER each totalling 12 missiles per ship. No Quad configuration.


PN with that build up should look her own strike airarm 24-36 jets for deep strike maritime ops

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## monitor

Tipu7 said:


> Once all these four Milgem corvettes will materialize, the Jinnah class frigate project will initiate.
> The frigates, AFAIK, will be constructed in new Shipyard.
> 
> 
> Yes, 12 GWS-26 VLS tubes for one CAMM-ER each, totalling 12 missiles per ship. No Quad configuration.



Can it later upgrade with quad configuration?


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## Tipu7

monitor said:


> Can it later upgrade with quad configuration?


Nope. But I guess (it's just my thought) that more VLS modules can be added if needed after structural modifications.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Turkey begins construction of 4th Ada-class corvette for Pakistan


The steel cutting ceremony for the fourth Turkey-made corvette tailored for Pakistan’s navy was held in the southern port city of Karachi Tuesday.The...




www.dailysabah.com












The steel cutting ceremony for the fourth Turkey-made corvette tailored for Pakistan’s navy was held in the southern port city of Karachi Tuesday.
The ceremony at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works – Pakistan Navy's specialized shipbuilding division – was attended by Pakistan Navy chief Adm. Amjad Khan Niazi, Esad Akgün, the chief executive officer of Turkey's state-run defense firm ASFAT, and other senior officials from both countries.
In July 2018, the Pakistan Navy signed a contract for the acquisition of four MILGEM (National Ship) Ada class ships with Turkish state-owned defense firm ASFAT.
According to the plan, two corvettes will be built in Turkey and the other two in Pakistan, which will also include technology transfer.
Addressing the ceremony, Niazi hailed ASFAT for achieving this milestone despite the global impacts of the coronavirus pandemic.

He praised the cooperation of the Pakistan Navy, ASFAT, Karachi Shipyard and the Defense Production Ministry for the construction of the warships.
The navy chief also thanked Ankara for its assistance and cooperation in the defense and security fields.
Niazi said that Tuesday's event is a defining moment to further cement the bond of friendship between the two strategically aligned nations with common shared values, culture and principles.
These corvettes will be fitted with the state-of-art surface, sub-surface and anti-air weapons and sensors, integrated through an advanced network central combat management system.
"The induction of MILGEM Corvettes will significantly enhance maritime defense and deterrence capabilities of the Pakistan Navy. These corvettes will become a core element of Pakistan Navy's kinetic response to traditional and nontraditional challenges and to maintain the balance of power in the Indian Ocean Region," said a statement from the Pakistan Navy.
*'Deep-rooted brotherhood'*
Akgün, in his remarks, said that with the groundbreaking of the fourth corvette, the project is entering a phase of constructing all four ships at the same time.
Despite the setbacks of the pandemic, he said, ASFAT is doing "everything humanly possible to complete the project on time and in budget."
Briefing on the ongoing MILGEM project, he said the production and installation of some 32 blocks on the slipway have been completed, both in Karachi and Istanbul.
Of these 32 blocks, he went on to say, 23 were produced and installed in Istanbul, while the remaining nine in Karachi.
Another 14 blocks have been produced in Turkey, and are ready to be installed, he added.
Some 38 blocks are under construction in Pakistan.
A total of 1,600 tons of steel, he further said, have been processed.
"With 19 shipments, more than 2,000 documents, 145 containers and almost 3,800 tons of material and equipment have been sent to Karachi," he said.
"Every event (like this) is another steel plate welded to our brotherhood roots," Akgün said.
*State-of-the-art vessels*
MILGEM vessels are 99 meters (325 feet) long with a displacement capacity of 24,00 tons and can move at a speed of 29 nautical miles.
MILGEM anti-submarine combat frigates, which can be hidden from the radar, will further enhance the defense capability of the Pakistan Navy.
In October 2019, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan along with the then Pakistan Navy Chief Adm. Zafar Mahmood Abbasi had cut the first metal plate of the first MILGEM Ada-class corvette during a ceremony in Istanbul.
Turkey is one of only 10 countries in the world that can design, build and maintain warships using its national capabilities.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They seem very close to identical.
> 
> I think Leonardo designed the AW189 for offshore rig operations and SAR.


They are the same. The AW149 came first as a proper military variant developed from the AW139. The AW189 came later as its civilian version.

Compared to AW139M the AW149 was designed from GITGO as a military helicopter, hence more rugged, and more ballistic protection, unlike the AW139M which had a few features added later.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

These types of capabilities are like the last nails into the Hindutva's coffin....

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## Dreamer.

Tipu7 said:


> Nope. But I guess (it's just my thought) that more VLS modules can be added if needed after structural modifications.



What I don't get is, why reduce VLS to 12 when 16 was already planned? Can't be a space issue, can it...if 16 were already planned earlier.....?? What other reason is there? Even cost doesn't seem logical reason. 

Also would appreciate if someone can shed light on how CAMM-ER is superior to the Chinese alternative that was planned earlier.


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## ghazi52

BEFORE PN MILGEM AFTER

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## khanasifm

Dreamer. said:


> What I don't get is, why reduce VLS to 12 when 16 was already planned? Can't be a space issue, can it...if 16 were already planned earlier.....?? What other reason is there? Even cost doesn't seem logical reason.
> 
> Also would appreciate if someone can shed light on how CAMM-ER is superior to the Chinese alternative that was planned earlier.



I would guess not the space but cost may be next step would have been another 6 totaling 3x6 =18 Vls which were perhaps cost going up too much not sure but space does not seems to be a problem especially when chines/Russian Vls and missiles are usually far larger than western types

As far as sam goes two way data link and active guidance vs passive meaning missile seaker pick up 10-15 km after launch not needing ship providing updates also leading to more simultaneous engagement of targets I think hq-16 can do 6 vs say camm twice as many or more but then there are total 12 missiles not sure if in case of camm there is auto loading and Can Cary another load of 12 down under the Vls in the front ??

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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> I would guess not the space but cost may be next step would have been another 6 totaling 3x6 =18 Vls which were perhaps cost going up too much not sure but space does not seems to be a problem especially when chines/Russian Vls and missiles are usually far larger than western types
> 
> As far as sam goes two way data link and active guidance vs passive meaning missile seaker pick up 10-15 km after launch not needing ship providing updates also leading to more simultaneous engagement of targets I think hq-16 can do 6 vs say camm twice as many or more but then there are total 12 missiles not sure if in case of camm there is auto loading and Can Cary another load of 12 down under the Vls in the front ??


That was answered by @Tipu7 that there will be 12 missile per ship no additional, if i am not wrong

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## Scorpiooo

@Tipu7. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Is there any possibility that we can see both western VLS and Chinese VLS together on our upcoming Jinnah-class (based on milgem class)


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> @Tipu7. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Is these any possibility that we can see both western VLS and Chinese VLS together on Jinnah-class based on milgem class


Not that I am an expert but in general mixing equipment brings about complexities both with maintenance, operations, training and repairs. As such it might be better to install one sort of equipment on one platform. 
It is intersting and I am not-sure why posters have not latched on to it, but changing equipment such as SAMs midplanning leads to a-few-questions. Firstly, is this really necessary or is-this a cryptic message to someone to up their game and produce and install comparable equipment? PAF has on multiple occasions asked for western equipment for the main vendor to come up with a comparable but cost effective product.
Secondly is this an indication of the infefiority or lack of maturity of the previously planned equipment or simply a bait to the Western providers that we have comparable products in case there is some reluctance?
Lastly what are the plans for indegenization? I dont think we need to worry too much about the system but the ammo can be built in house saving us costs and providing us-with an avenue to build up-our future weaponry?
Perhaps @bilal khan Quwa or @Tipu7 or @Aakh1112 or @Blacklight migt want to comment on this aspect.
Regards

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## waz

Scorpiooo said:


> @Tipu7. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Is these any possibility that we can see both western VLS and Chinese VLS together on Jinnah-class based on milgem class



No different systems, integration will be complex and not worth the time. The Milgem will have Turkish or western i.e. NATO compatible systems.

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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> @Tipu7. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Is these any possibility that we can see both western VLS and Chinese VLS together on Jinnah-class based on milgem class




Theres no benefit to such a thing.

Whats the point, the smallest AAW missile the chinese make for ships is the HQ-16

The HQ-16 is a pretty meh missile for modern standards. Alongside this, the entire HQ-16 complex(Radars, illuminators, missiles) cannot stand saturation attacks. They can only engage 4 at a time. Theoretically, the CAMM based solution could expend all of its missiles in rapid succession to take on saturation attacks.

Alongside this, range wise, the CAMM-ER is the same as, if not superior to HQ-16(baseline CAMM has been proven to take out targets at ranges of 40km when its stated range is 20km-ish,m of course, with far far degraded pK, it will only really be useful against slow, non-maneuvering targets.)

Chinese VLS is also large and bulky, vs something like ExLS, SYLVER A43 or even GWS-26(as much as i hate the latter).

This isnt a problem of integration, Chinese munitions can be easily integrated into the CMS of the ship, yes you may need to carry a seperate set of radars(+illuminators) , so integration is not an issue. Its a matter of it not being worth it.

The HQ-16 is a far inferior AAW missile to stuff like CAMM/ER, ESSM, BARAK, etc. CAMM also serves as a far better point defence weapon, an important capability as the J/Ada lacks Missile based PD systems (RIM-116, HQ-10) which are far better for defeating faster and larger threats, like the ones we're facing vs gun based CIWS.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Akh1112 said:


> Theres no benefit to such a thing.
> 
> Whats the point, the smallest AAW missile the chinese make for ships is the HQ-16
> 
> The HQ-16 is a pretty meh missile for modern standards. Alongside this, the entire HQ-16 complex(Radars, illuminators, missiles) cannot stand saturation attacks. They can only engage 4 at a time. Theoretically, the CAMM based solution could expend all of its missiles in rapid succession to take on saturation attacks.
> 
> Alongside this, range wise, the CAMM-ER is the same as, if not superior to HQ-16(baseline CAMM has been proven to take out targets at ranges of 40km when its stated range is 20km-ish,m of course, with far far degraded pK, it will only really be useful against slow, non-maneuvering targets.)
> 
> Chinese VLS is also large and bulky, vs something like ExLS, SYLVER A43 or even GWS-26(as much as i hate the latter).
> 
> This isnt a problem of integration, Chinese munitions can be easily integrated into the CMS of the ship, yes you may need to carry a seperate set of radars(+illuminators) , so integration is not an issue. Its a matter of it not being worth it.
> 
> The HQ-16 is a far inferior AAW missile to stuff like CAMM/ER, ESSM, BARAK, etc. CAMM also serves as a far better point defence weapon, an important capability as the J/Ada lacks Missile based PD systems (RIM-116, HQ-10) which are far better for defeating faster and larger threats, like the ones we're facing vs gun based CIWS.




Camm has already been finalized for saturation attacks. I don't usually sample Turkish solutions here, but for area defense, Hisar RF and Siper will be ready by 2023.

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## Dreamer.

Akh1112 said:


> Chinese VLS is also large and bulky, vs something like ExLS, SYLVER A43 or even GWS-26(as much as i hate the latter).


And yet when switching from chinese VLS to western we reduce numbers?? How come?
If the western options were less bulky, should we not have more than 16 vls now?


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## Akh1112

Dreamer. said:


> And yet when switching from chinese VLS to western we reduce numbers?? How come?
> If the western options were less bulky, should we not have more than 16 vls now?




theres a very good chance this graphic is a placeholder. Its incomplete, for example, its missing the Datalink domes for CAMM.

GWS.26 is also not rated for CAMM-ER yet anyway.

Im relatively confident we are not going for GWS.26 and will go for a sylver or another VLS solution in the end.

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## Tipu7

Dreamer. said:


> And yet when switching from chinese VLS to western we reduce numbers?? How come?
> If the western options were less bulky, should we not have more than 16 vls now?


Possibly this decision is related to Economics. Otherwise, generally speaking from visual observation, that there is space for two additional sets of VLS modules (six missiles each). 
In theory, the total missile load out can reach 24 CAMM-ER per ship provided Navy pockets allow to do so.


Akh1112 said:


> theres a very good chance this graphic is a placeholder. Its incomplete, for example, its missing the Datalink domes for CAMM.
> 
> GWS.26 is also not rated for CAMM-ER yet anyway.
> 
> Im relatively confident we are not going for GWS.26 and will go for a sylver or another VLS solution in the end.


Best will be a Sylver-A43 set with 8 Tubes. Ship will be able to carry 32 missiles in Quad configuration.

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## Akh1112

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Camm has already been finalized for saturation attacks. I don't usually sample Turkish solutions here, but for area defense, Hisar RF and Siper will be ready by 2023.




If a navalized siper can be readied, theres a chance we could see it on Jinnah since i expect them to focus on area wide air defence as opposed to localized AD like the vessels in the pipeline do so. Its a matter of timelines, for the same reason i also see potential for an ASTER based solution for Jinnah Class- a more risky option being the Navy's domestic SAM project but @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can talk more about that.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> If a navalized siper can be readied, theres a chance we could see it on Jinnah since i expect them to focus on area wide air defence as opposed to localized AD like the vessels in the pipeline do so. Its a matter of timelines, for the same reason i also see potential for an ASTER based solution for Jinnah Class- a more risky option being the Navy's domestic SAM project but @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can talk more about that.


I agree that the Jinnah-class frigate will likely be an AAW-focused system. IMHO, the PN is leaning towards the Aster-30. Obviously, if that falls through, the PN will look at other options if they're available, but IMHO, Aster-30 would be the preferred solution.

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> In theory, the total missile load out can reach 24 CAMM-ER per ship provided Navy pockets allow to do so.
> 
> Best will be a Sylver-A43 set with 8 Tubes. Ship will be able to carry 32 missiles in Quad configuration.


But question is can we afford it now or even in future?


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> But question is can we afford it now or even in future?


Who knows. its just a speculation on my part ...


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## khanasifm

Not sure why pn ship has 40 plus personal capacity vs Turkish Ada 

?


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## T-SaGe

There are developments in the design and building capability transfer of nationally corvettes/frigates, one of the main objectives of the PN-MILGEM project. Within the scope of the project, the activities of the 5th ship have started. 5th Ship design will be realized with the partnership of Turkey and Pakistan.

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## khanasifm

Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine


By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG




www.edrmagazine.eu

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## khanasifm

Camm-er vs mica Vls vs aster -15

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## Titanium100

waz said:


> No different systems, integration will be complex and not worth the time. The Milgem will have Turkish or western i.e. NATO compatible systems.



It can have whatever you want. You can chose what types of weaponry you wanna equip it with..


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## Zarvan

Pakistan's first Milgem Corvette

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 767315
> 
> View attachment 767316
> 
> 
> Pakistan's first Milgem Corvette


May it bring Khair, Bereket, Rahmet and Zafer to Pak…..

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## syedakm

PN-MILGEM & Jinnah Class


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422907687403147277

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## khanasifm

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402558619669909507

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## BaybarsHan

*15.08.2021*

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## Goenitz

khanasifm said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402558619669909507


The double barrel weapon is equivalent to swiss Oerlikon guns? I was just hoping that we shd have a close in weapon to counter what India was thinking on 27th Feb night.


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## HRK

BaybarsHan said:


> *15.08.2021*


??


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## truthseeker2010

HRK said:


> ??



First milgem launch date

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> ??


Expected launch date of very first vessel.

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## Corsair255

On schedule.
Counting down.....

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## syed_yusuf

I am very confused, is this Corvette or a light frigate ?


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## Yasser76

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused, is this Corvette or a light frigate ?



I would say Frigate but different countries classify ships in different ways, for example some use tonnage, some use size, some use capability. 

In terms of tonnage and capability this is certainly in Frigate territory.

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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused, is this Corvette or a light frigate ?


A frigate, not just a light frigate, a proper frigate. The Turkish versions of the Ada are corvettes, the Pakistani versions are much bigger and better armed.

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## waz

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused, is this Corvette or a light frigate ?



Near 2,926 tones it's a frigate, and with comparable weaponry, to other modern frigates in that class.

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## AKINCI

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424411590477107203
More pics from different angles

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## Areesh

Is it me or these milgem ships are better looking visually than the type 054a that we are getting?

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## Zarvan

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused, is this Corvette or a light frigate ?


Corvette


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## khanasifm

AKINCI said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424411590477107203
> More pics from different angles



Az kaldı o geliyor…
Or 
It's almost coming…


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> Corvette



Bhai at least they are light frigate


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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Bhai at least they are light frigate








Doha Class Corvette 




Gowind Class Corvette. 

There are many modern day Corvettes which are very heavily equipped. But they are still called corvettes. Although I think it doesn't matter what you call them.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The PN is calling the MILGEMs "corvettes" (source: ex-CNS speech), but they're more capable than our F-22Ps, which we call frigates. However, a growing number of navies would consider even a 3,000-ton ship like the PN MILGEM a 'corvette' -- the trends I guess.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

A nice video on FERSAH anti-submarine sensor systems, developed by ASELSAN. It’s incorporated into MILGEM…

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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 768411
> 
> Doha Class Corvette
> View attachment 768412
> 
> Gowind Class Corvette.
> 
> There are many modern day Corvettes which are very heavily equipped. But they are still called corvettes. Although I think it doesn't matter what you call them.



I don't care what others say. These ships are more capable than f22p which are called frigates by PN. So there is no reason to call Milgem as corvettes

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## Zarvan



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## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 768503



Looks fantastic!


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## xbat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN is calling the MILGEMs "corvettes" (source: ex-CNS speech), but they're more capable than our F-22Ps, which we call frigates. However, a growing number of navies would consider even a 3,000-ton ship like the PN MILGEM a 'corvette' -- the trends I guess.


Turkish Yavuz class frigate is 2919 tons but still a frigate with much lower weapon/elctronic suite load

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## PakFactor

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 768503



As my favorite character Kopec used to say, AALAA.

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## Muhammad Omar

Corvette or Light Frigate whatever these ships will give Pakistan Navy a much needed punch 

Can't wait to see Jinnah Class Frigates.. Excited 

Any news about them or launch dates etc??

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## Corsair255

Muhammad Omar said:


> Corvette or Light Frigate whatever these ships will give Pakistan Navy a much needed punch
> 
> Can't wait to see Jinnah Class Frigates.. Excited
> 
> Any news about them or *launch dates* etc??



18th August for first PN Milgem.

Corection: 15th August....

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Corvette or Light Frigate whatever these ships will give Pakistan Navy a much needed punch
> 
> Can't wait to see Jinnah Class Frigates.. Excited
> 
> Any news about them or launch dates etc??


If the defence exhibition in Turkey takes place this year the model of Jinnah class will be revealed in them.

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

Corsair255 said:


> 18th August for first PN Milgem.



what is 18th ?? Launch 🚀?

the delivery date for first one is 2023 so looks like mostly time spent on integration and testing 😉

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## Corsair255

khanasifm said:


> what is 18th ?? Launch 🚀?
> 
> the delivery date for first one is 2023 so looks like mostly time spent on integration and testing 😉



Correction: 15th August.
Yes Launch date.

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## Zarvan

Turkey is going ahead with its defence exibition which will start on 17th August. That means INSHALLAH Jinah Class model will be revealed in that exhibition

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## AKINCI

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425904903210295299
Last 2 days

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## KaiserX

How many jinnah class frigates is Pakistan getting from Turkey? I have heard that Pakistan is thoroughly impressed by the Milgems and is looking to place an order for 4 more?

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## syed_yusuf

PNS Babur
It will be known as Babur class

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## iLION12345_1

KaiserX said:


> How many jinnah class frigates is Pakistan getting from Turkey? I have heard that Pakistan is thoroughly impressed by the Milgems and is looking to place an order for 4 more?


These are not Jinnah class. These are MILGEM class. 4 of these, then an unknown number of Jinnah class. Possibly 4-6+

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## Corsair255

Translated from Mr. Emre Koray GENÇSOY's Linkedin Post (He's Naval Platforms Tecnical Manager at ASFAT, Turkey):

At the launching ceremony of TCG Istanbul, the first ship of the İ-Class, held at the end of January 2021, PNS BABUR, with 6 blocks visible on the slipway, is ready to launch after 7 months with 37 blocks.










We sincerely congratulate the Istanbul Shipyard Command, which completed the construction with a superior performance, especially the Asfat personnel who struggled tirelessly for this cause, our design stakeholder Navtek, who did not give up the fight despite the changing design, and all our subsystem providers and subcontractors who continued to work under Covid conditions.
It was a difficult work, but thanks to the planning and collaborative method, we were able to take this rope proudly together.
Now we have a busy year ahead of us; while aiming to quickly complete the remaining activities and start the tests, at the same time; We continue our struggle on a difficult schedule, as there is 9 months for the launching of ship 3 in Karachi and 13 months for the launching of ship 2 in ITK.
In addition to all these, we are proud of the fact that the steel cutting of TCG AKHİSAR, which is the first ship of the Offshore Patrol Ship project, whose critical design activities continue, will be carried out together with this launching ceremony.
The range is long, the goals are big, we still have a long way to go. With our team that aims to walk together with all stakeholders and is getting stronger day by day, we are determined to take every step to reach this goal.
The result so far; It is a clear proof of what can be done when action is taken in a planned manner, together with all project stakeholders.

Common goal, common success...

I would say....
Respect people...

PS: According to information received, both Pakistani and Turkish presidents will be attending to the ceremnony.









Emre Koray Gençsoy on LinkedIn: Ocak 2021 sonunda gerçekleşen İ-Sınıfı'nın ilk gemisi TCG İstanbul'un | 20 comments


Ocak 2021 sonunda gerçekleşen İ-Sınıfı'nın ilk gemisi TCG İstanbul'un denize iniş töreninde, kızakta 6 bloğu gözüken PNS BABUR, 7 ay sonra 37 bloğuyla ... 20 comments on LinkedIn




www.linkedin.com

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> These are not Jinnah class. These are MILGEM class. 4 of these, then an unknown number of Jinnah class. Possibly 4-6+


The PN MILGEM is now the Babur-class corvette.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN MILGEM is now the Babur-class corvette.



Is the PN officially classing this as a Corvette? Seems strange as it is heavier and more capable then the F-22Ps that we class as Frigates.

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## Rafi

Yasser76 said:


> Is the PN officially classing this as a Corvette? Seems strange as it is heavier and more capable then the F-22Ps that we class as Frigates.



Will be called frigate in our service IMHO.

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## Yasser76

Rafi said:


> Will be called frigate in our service IMHO.



That is what I thought unless there is a possibility that PN has decided to completely change it's naming convention for different classes. As we are getting MILGEMS (3k tons) these may be called Corvettes now, TYPE 054P (4k tons) will be frigates and Jinnah class (6k tons?) become destroyers!?

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## Rafi

Yasser76 said:


> That is what I thought unless there is a possibility that PN has decided to completely change it's naming convention for different classes. As we are getting MILGEMS (3k tons) these may be called Corvettes now, TYPE 054P (4k tons) will be frigates and Jinnah class (6k tons?) become destroyers!?



Classifications are academic really, these vessels are better than our F22Ps.

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Is the PN officially classing this as a Corvette? Seems strange as it is heavier and more capable then the F-22Ps that we class as Frigates.


I say this a lot but classifications are irrelevant at this point. The waters have been super muddied.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The nomenclature may not mean much anymore, the PN will probably organize based on the size and capability of its ships.

The previous CNS said the PN is aiming for 20+ "major surface vessels" -- I think these are likely 2,000+ ton ships with ASW, AShW and AAW.

If accurate, the PN would have at least 12 such vessels in the roadmap (4 F-22P, 4 MILGEM, 4 Type 054A/P). I suspect the remaining 8 ships would likely be Jinnah-class frigates (assuming the PN retains the F-22Ps).

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

AKINCI said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425904903210295299
> Last 2 days


So, the name is Babur Han…..

What a conjecture?!?!!

Babur Han conquered Kabul first
Babur Han was a Turkic style military genius. He introduced canons, gun powder, matchlocks etc. along with tactics and strategies unknown hitherto in the subcontinent
Babur Han believed in Allah. After a couple of failures to conquer Hindustan he broke his wine jars, and offered Namaz to atone for his sins. He conquered Delhi in the next try at Panipat with only 6K troops against 100K strong opponents
Babur Han was an ambitious leader. While sleeping under the trees at the Fergana Valley and being penniless, he dreamt about conquering Hindustan, the richest country of that time
Etc.

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## DJ_Viper

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I will tell you what card they played son! Turkey is now a backdoor for western technology. Companies and countries not able to sell to Pakistan sell to Turkey so that it can be re-packaged as Aselsan etc. Secondly, the product comes with a Loan, so PN does not have to pay upfront. This is is the same formula by which Chinese were winning. Now other smart countries are figuring it out.



Corvette building has nothing to do with access to the Western tech per say. It's really a reflection of a growing defense cooperation (strategic) between Turkey and Pakistan. These ships don't come with real Western tech like advance AD and AS/AS missiles like PAC , etc. So it's not backdoor access to the Western tech. 

The PN will be installing it's own weapon systems, which could be European or Chinese made. This contract probably has a TOT component so that alone is worth the price.

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## TheDarkKnight

Yasser76 said:


> Is the PN officially classing this as a Corvette? Seems strange as it is heavier and more capable then the F-22Ps that we class as Frigates.


Doesn’t matter what its called, they may as well classify it as an armed speed boat or a ching qi rakshaw.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN MILGEM is now the Babur-class corvette.



Baber class has almost same tonnage as f22 2900 plus vs 3000 plus f22


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## Corsair255

Corsair255 said:


> ....design stakeholder Navtek, who did not give up the fight despite the changing design....



This part, apart from the other parts, caught my attention.

One of the most difficult things in an ongoing project is to modify the existing design. Especially if this is a shipbuilding activity. People working in the shipyard or shipbuilding industry, if there is any here, can understand what I'm talking about.

As it is understood; Turkish engineers and workers made and implemented these design changes while shipbuilding was going on. This is a really difficult and tedious process. Normally, if it were another manufacturer (or country), they would either reject such changes in advance, demand extra time, or demand a whopping price increase (perhaps even to dissuade the customer).

However, in the PN_Milgem (Babur Class) corvette project, despite all the negativities (design changes, Covid 19 epidemic, etc.), it is understood that the project is progressing smoothly in accordance with the planned schedule (i'm not telling easily). This shows the flexibility of Turkish design, level of experience, knowledge and professionalism of Turkish engineers/experts and workers.

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## S A L M A N.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The nomenclature may not mean much anymore, the PN will probably organize based on the size and capability of its ships.
> 
> The previous CNS said the PN is aiming for 20+ "major surface vessels" -- I think these are likely 2,000+ ton ships with ASW, AShW and AAW.
> 
> If accurate, the PN would have at least 12 such vessels in the roadmap (4 F-22P, 4 MILGEM, 4 Type 054A/P). I suspect the remaining 8 ships would likely be Jinnah-class frigates (assuming the PN retains the F-22Ps).



Lets also not forget the 'larger' variants of the Damen OPVs (Yarmook-class) that the ex-CNS Abbasi mentioned in his farewell address, 6 vessels were under negotiations.

That would give us:
- 4 Zulfiqar-class (F-22P), 4 Babur-class (MILGEM), 4 Type 054A/P
AND
- 2 Yarmook-class (Damen 1900 OPV) @ 2300 tons, 6 'larger' Yarmook-class variants
AND
- ?? Jinnah-class frigates

In total: 20 + 4 or 5 = 24-25 surface vessels of 2000+ tons each

The recent special news supplement of the KSEW also mentioned that the 1st 'gunboat' was under construction

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## Yasser76

S A L M A N. said:


> Lets also not forget the 'larger' variants of the Damen OPVs (Yarmook-class) that the ex-CNS Abbasi mentioned in his farewell address, 6 vessels were under negotiations.
> 
> That would give us:
> - 4 Zulfiqar-class (F-22P), 4 Babur-class (MILGEM), 4 Type 054A/P
> AND
> - 2 Yarmook-class (Damen 1900 OPV) @ 2300 tons, 6 'larger' Yarmook-class variants
> AND
> - ?? Jinnah-class frigates
> 
> In total: 20 + 4 or 5 = 24-25 surface vessels of 2000+ tons each
> 
> The recent special news supplement of the KSEW also mentioned that the 1st 'gunboat' was under construction



I think there is some ambuguity regarding the 6 vessels being from Damen or being the Jinnahs

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## AR KHAN

Ships are classified by their roles & capability and not by their tonnage. Earlier, tonnage was used as a reference to state the capability of a ship, but not anymore. 
Europeans' characterization of ships is different to that of US's and so are the roles. Some of European navies classify their frigates as destroyer. That is why you would sometimes listen from Pakistan Naval officers stating their F22P's as destroyers.

To understand the concepts & differences between every kind of ship, watch this:






As far as PN Milgem is concerned, it's a frigate. They may call it Corvette, it's because it is evolved from Corvette class of a ship.

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## Tipu7

There are no plans for any larger/heavier version of ship from Daman shipyard.

The six heavy tonnage ships will be "heavy" in true sense. (Not Corvettes)



S A L M A N. said:


> Lets also not forget the 'larger' variants of the Damen OPVs (Yarmook-class) that the ex-CNS Abbasi mentioned in his farewell address, 6 vessels were under negotiations.
> 
> That would give us:
> - 4 Zulfiqar-class (F-22P), 4 Babur-class (MILGEM), 4 Type 054A/P
> AND
> - 2 Yarmook-class (Damen 1900 OPV) @ 2300 tons, 6 'larger' Yarmook-class variants
> AND
> - ?? Jinnah-class frigates
> 
> In total: 20 + 4 or 5 = 24-25 surface vessels of 2000+ tons each
> 
> The recent special news supplement of the KSEW also mentioned that the 1st 'gunboat' was under construction

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> There are no plans for any larger/heavier version of ship from Daman shipyard.
> 
> The six heavy tonnage ships will be "heavy" in true sense. (Not Corvettes)


I have serious doubt about the number 20 main vessels which former Naval Chief said. I think it would be more then 20. Even close to 30. What I mean is that I doubt that F-22 P or Damen Corvettes will be counted among those 20. Secondly in his speech former Naval Chief was clearly referring to heavier version of Damen Corvette.


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## S A L M A N.

Yasser76 said:


> I think there is some ambuguity regarding the 6 vessels being from Damen or being the Jinnahs



If going by Admiral (R) Abbasi's speech, there is no ambiguity.

He clearly mentioned the 1x Jinnah-class frigate which will be a followup to the MILGEM class (i.e. Babur-class):
"4 Turkish MILGEM-class ships will be inducted between 2023 and 2025. Under the MILGEM project, complete design knowhow will be transferred to Pakistan Navy. Thus, the 5th ship, presently under design phase will be Pakistan's first Jinnah-class frigate, designed and built in Pakistan."

He went on to mention seperately,
"Of the 2x2300 ton corvettes, the lead ship PNS Yarmook has been inducted while the second ship Tabuk will join Pakistan Navy fleet by November this year. As a follow-up, six additional ships of larger tonnage are being contracted. "

Watch this video from 14.20 onwards








Zarvan said:


> I have serious doubt about the number 20 main vessels which former Naval Chief said. I think it would be more then 20. Even close to 30. What I mean is that I doubt that F-22 P or Damen Corvettes will be counted among those 20. Secondly in his speech former Naval Chief was clearly referring to heavier version of Damen Corvette.



Yes, agreed. 
The admiral probably gave the '20 ships' figure in light of programs which are currently under execution. Future ships such as the Jinnah-class (only 1 ship on order) and the 'larger' Damen ships are probably not counted among the 20. Also, the PN may not count the 2x Yarmook-class (Damen) corvettes and the followup 6 in its main fleet. They may be intended as OPVs/Littoral ships for security and patrol duties only. 



Tipu7 said:


> There are no plans for any larger/heavier version of ship from Daman shipyard.
> 
> The six heavy tonnage ships will be "heavy" in true sense. (Not Corvettes)



Please refer to Admiral Abbasi's speech linked above.
Plans are obviously subject to change but we are only discussing in light of what was revealed in the speech.
The 6 ships of 'larger tonnage' were mentioned as follow-ups to the Damen corvettes, therefore it can be assumed that Damen will be supplying them, probably to the PN's own specifications.
We don't know what 'larger tonnage' means in a quantitative sense

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## Tipu7

Sometimes a misplaced comma or difference in voice tone can change the entire meaning. 
And this is what has happened.

Plans change. His speech is no longer the fresh information.


S A L M A N. said:


> Please refer to Admiral Abbasi's speech linked above.
> Plans are obviously subject to change but we are only discussing in light of what was revealed in the speech.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Sometimes a misplaced comma or difference in voice tone can change the entire meaning.
> And this is what has happened.
> 
> Plans change. His speech is no longer the fresh information.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426868216207380489

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## AKINCI

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426876150295498754
LIVE

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=314990660415803

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426880637009604617

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## ghazi52

Turk President Tayyip Erdogan and Pakistan President Dr. Arif Alvi arrive for the launch ceremony of of Milgem corvette.

Aug 15, 2021

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## Muhammad Omar



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## ZAC1

Before time


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426930183144153093

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## Muslim Warrior

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426930183144153093


Alhamdulilah ..!


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## The Ronin

__ https://www.facebook.com/DgprNavy/posts/3010050772610209

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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

*First Pak Navy Milgem Corvette/Babur Class Ship Launched in Turkey*










Pak Navy First Milgem Corvette Launched - Current Affairs


Pak Navy First Milgem Corvette Launched Today in Turkey. Presidents of Pakistan & Turkey participated in launching of the 1st Ship PNS Babur.




www.currentaffairs.com.pk


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## xbat

Maasallah!

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## SeaEagle

Source: https://navalpost.com/turkey-launched-the-first-pn-milgem-corvette/





Photo courtesy of the Turkish Presidency

The first PN MILGEM-class corvette, PNS Babur (F-280) built in Turkey for the Pakistan Navy was launched on August 15 during a ceremony at the Istanbul Military Shipyard. The event was attended by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his Pakistani counterpart Arif Alvi.

Following the ceremony, the first steel of Turkey’s first offshore patrol vessel, the future TCG AKHISAR, was cut to mark the start of construction.

“Four MILGEM class corvettes will be built for the Pakistan Navy as part of the project that has brought us together today. Two of these will be manufactured in our country and two in Pakistan. Additional technology and equipment for use in corvettes will be chosen from our country’s defense industry products,” said the Turkish President said in his speech during the ceremony.

“Today is the launching ceremony for the first ship whose steel cutting ceremony we held in 2019. The second ship’s laying ceremony took place in April (2021). The keel-laying ceremony for the third ship produced in Pakistan took place in October of last year, and the sheet cutting ceremony for the fourth ship took place in June of this year. The corvettes will be delivered by 2025, according to the project’s contract, which was signed about three years ago.” Mr Erdogan added.



Turkish Presidency Image

Pakistan will induct four corvettes under the terms of an agreement signed in September 2018. Two of the corvettes will be constructed at the Istanbul Shipyard Command, while the other two will be constructed in Karachi, Pakistan.

A corvette, which will be built in Istanbul and Karachi in the first stage, will be added to the Pakistan Navy’s inventory in 2023. The other two ships will be added to the inventory in 2024. The first ship will take 54 months to build, the second ship 60 months, the third ship 66 months, and the last ship 72 months.

*Check out Naval Library App to find out the specifications of the PN MILGEM-class corvettes.*

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## airbus101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426894665874354177Can someone please translate this
And also I got this translation from Erdôgans tweet
We launched the first of the 4 MİLGEM corvettes to be exported to Pakistan and welded the sheet metal of our *first Offshore Patrol Ship.*

One of the greatest gifts we will give to our nation in 2023 will be to reach the top league of the world in the defense industry.

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## airbus101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426987544617627654*The 1st Ship Sheet Metal Cutting Ceremony of the Offshore Patrol Ship, of which HAVELSAN is the Combat System Integrator, was also held.*

HAVELSAN; It will provide the combat management system, electronic warfare support system and remote-controlled weapon system.

HAVELSAN General Manager attended the ceremony.@manacar1 also participated.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426987544617627654*The 1st Ship Sheet Metal Cutting Ceremony of the Offshore Patrol Ship, of which HAVELSAN is the Combat System Integrator, was also held.*

HAVELSAN; It will provide the combat management system, electronic warfare support system and remote-controlled weapon system.

HAVELSAN General Manager attended the ceremony.@manacar1 also participated.

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## python-000




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## waz

What a beautiful ship mashallah derived from a project with our brothers. 
Long may she sail., long may she defend, and Allah bless all those who guide her path in our waters.

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## Solidify

We need all warships vessels just to confront Indian Navy alone, forget allies.

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## Dreamer.

AKINCI said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426876150295498754LIVE


The model that appears from 9:15 onwards in the video shows great detail of the ship. 6 x Anti-Ship missile and 12xVLS arrangements are quite clearly visible.


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## khanasifm

Dreamer. said:


> The model that appears from 9:15 onwards in the video shows great detail of the ship. 6 x Anti-Ship missile and 12xVLS arrangements are quite clearly visible.




















Z-9er ??

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## Muhammad Omar

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 770131
> View attachment 770131
> View attachment 770132
> View attachment 770134
> View attachment 770133
> 
> Z-9er ??
> View attachment 770135



Looks more like Airbus Helicopters AS565MBe Panther can be the choice if Pakistan Navy isn't going for the Chinese VLS system I don't think they will station Chinese Helicopter on it... Maybe I'm wrong


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 770131
> View attachment 770131
> View attachment 770132
> View attachment 770134
> View attachment 770133
> 
> Z-9er ??
> View attachment 770135


Just a generic scale model of a helicopter. It doesn't look like anything (definitely not Z-9/Panther as the model has landing skids, not gears with wheels).

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## khanasifm

Muhammad Omar said:


> Looks more like Airbus Helicopters AS565MBe Panther can be the choice if Pakistan Navy isn't going for the Chinese VLS system I don't think they will station Chinese Helicopter on it... Maybe I'm wrong
> 
> View attachment 770138
> View attachment 770139
> View attachment 770140



z9 is basically licensed copy also the anti sub suite is also copy so why introduced another supplier?


khanasifm said:


> z9 is basically licensed copy also the anti sub suite is also copy so why introduced another supplier?



Also even z9 has various roles sar model is different than asw version internally as on the back asw hardware occupy the heli vs sar is empty ans can carry 4 stretchers






SAR version with winches


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## imranyounus

Why the subsequent ships taking longer time. shouldn't it be other way around.


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## Cool_Soldier

Welcome new Shark in the sea.

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## 313ghazi

Congratulations to Pakistan Navy. Getting the long overdue support it needs.

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## Pandora

These ships pack more punch than Chinese frigates. I really hope we fully utilize TOT that will come with Jinnah class ships rather than sitting on their blueprints waiting for tech to be obsolete.

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## Dreamer.

Tipu7 said:


> Sometimes a misplaced comma or difference in voice tone can change the entire meaning.
> And this is what has happened.



Well, this explanation is difficult to accept and I would say probably not correct. The CNS after mentioning both Damen Ships one by one _and referencing them with their tonnage_ (the ONLY ships he referenced with tonnage btw) said,

"As a followup...six additional ships with larger tonnage are being contracted".

I fail to see how this can be a case of misplaced comma or a case of voice tone or emphasis on something rather than other etc. etc. That's not plausible AT ALL.

If at all the Admiral made any mistake in the speech (if) then it was definitely someting more than a comma!


Tipu7 said:


> Plans change. His speech is no longer the fresh information.


This is much more plausible. Of course one has to accept that plans can change, either due to a new CNS having different vision or due to some other reason.


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## Tipu7

New CNS has more realistic vision. 


Dreamer. said:


> Well, this explanation is difficult to accept and I would say probably not correct. The CNS after mentioning both Damen Ships one by one _and referencing them with their tonnage_ (the ONLY ships he referenced with tonnage btw) said,
> 
> "As a followup...six additional ships with larger tonnage are being contracted".
> 
> I fail to see how this can be a case of misplaced comma or a case of voice tone or emphasis on something rather than other etc. etc. That's not plausible AT ALL.
> 
> If at all the Admiral made any mistake in the speech (if) then it was definitely someting more than a comma!
> 
> This is much more plausible. Of course one has to accept that plans can change, either due to a new CNS having different vision or due to some other reason.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> New CNS has more realistic vision.


IMO...the current CNS is pivoting from OPVs to more submarines of various types (i.e., SWATs, UUVs, and full-sized AIP-equipped boats). The remaining 8-12+ "major surface vessels" as envisioned by the preceding CNS will likely be the Jinnah-class frigate. It's obvious from that design that the PN was looking for a cost-effective platform through which it can build its future mainstay fleet. In turn, the F-22P will likely move into the OPV-type role.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...the current CNS is pivoting from OPVs to more submarines of various types (i.e., SWATs, UUVs, and full-sized AIP-equipped boats). The remaining 8-12+ "major surface vessels" as envisioned by the preceding CNS will likely be the Jinnah-class frigate. It's obvious from that design that the PN was looking for a cost-effective platform through which it can build its future mainstay fleet. In turn, the F-22P will likely move into the OPV-type role.



Yeah, F-22P can be used in such a role as it will be the lowest tech amongst our fleet in 2-3 years. Just that traditionally the benefit of OPV were that they were cheap, required little manpower and did not have long range cruise missiles of choppers, all of which F-22P does. Better we upgrade these then use them to patrol Gwadar. It is still a decent sized platform

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Yeah, F-22P can be used in such a role as it will be the lowest tech amongst our fleet in 2-3 years. Just that traditionally the benefit of OPV were that they were cheap, required little manpower and did not have long range cruise missiles of choppers, all of which F-22P does. Better we upgrade these then use them to patrol Gwadar. It is still a decent sized platform


It'd be funny if the PN decided, "hey, let's use the MILGEM as the basis for an OPV!" Granted, ASFAT designed this for the market in general, but at some point (and perhaps to this day) the PN had a need for follow-on OPVs.

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## PakFactor

waz said:


> What a beautiful ship mashallah derived from a project with our brothers.
> Long may she sail., long may she defend, and Allah bless all those who guide her path in our waters.



Ameen bro!

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be funny if the PN decided, "hey, let's use the MILGEM as the basis for an OPV!" Granted, ASFAT designed this for the market in general, but at some point (and perhaps to this day) the PN had a need for follow-on OPVs.
> 
> View attachment 770960



I am really surprised we did not go for more AZMAT class boats as a basis for OPV. 

Made in Pakistan
Very cheap and light on manpower
good endurance for it's size
Just replace the long range missiles with say a MANPADs launcher and have space for 2 inflatables and say two 8 man marine sqauds, would of been perfect

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...the current CNS is pivoting from OPVs to more submarines of various types (i.e., SWATs, UUVs, and full-sized AIP-equipped boats). The remaining 8-12+ "major surface vessels" as envisioned by the preceding CNS will likely be the Jinnah-class frigate. It's obvious from that design that the PN was looking for a cost-effective platform through which it can build its future mainstay fleet. In turn, the F-22P will likely move into the OPV-type role.



The F22P will receive a mid life upgrade which will involve all primary systems replacement with new weapons including SAM, and AShM.
It is still on the drawing board at the moment.

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## TNT

The weaponry will be interesting. I hope we have the flexibility we need. What kind of land attack and anti ship missiles can be used with our milgem VLS?


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## Rafi

A form of destroyer class is definitely in the plans, finance is currently only a hindrance, PN wants our patrol aircraft and subs to have anti aircraft cover.

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## CriticalThought

Rafi said:


> A form of destroyer class is definitely in the plans, finance is currently only a hindrance, PN wants our patrol aircraft and subs to have anti aircraft cover.



Please anti-aircraft cover from the surface only goes so far. You need long legged fighter jets for cover.

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## Primus

TNT said:


> The weaponry will be interesting. I hope we have the flexibility we need. What kind of land attack and anti ship missiles can be used with our milgem VLS?


Harbah

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## syedakm

Rafi said:


> The F22P will receive a mid life upgrade which will involve all primary systems replacement with new weapons including SAM, and AShM.
> It is still on the drawing board at the moment.



wondering if F22P would be get the same CAMM-ER upgrade unless we have a Turkish solution.


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## Rafi

syedakm said:


> wondering if F22P would be get the same CAMM-ER upgrade unless we have a Turkish solution.



Could be, it's still in the architectural stage.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syedakm said:


> wondering if F22P would be get the same CAMM-ER upgrade unless we have a Turkish solution.


It should be doable. But if they're using the GWS VLS they might not get more than 8 cells, but still an improvement over the current set-up.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...the current CNS is pivoting from OPVs to more submarines of various types (i.e., SWATs, UUVs, and full-sized AIP-equipped boats).



What about boomers?

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## khanasifm

Number of ciws with pn assuming at least 10 and may be some used for spares during embargo’s ??









Outlook India Magazine Online- Read News India, Latest News Analysis, World, Sports, Entertainment | Best Online Magazine India


Outlook covers the latest India news, analysis, business news and long-form stories on culture, money market and personal finance. Read India's best online magazine.




www.outlookindia.com


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## syed_yusuf

Pandora said:


> These ships pack more punch than Chinese frigates. I really hope we fully utilize TOT that will come with Jinnah class ships rather than sitting on their blueprints waiting for tech to be obsolete.


Babur class Corvette are not having bigger punch than tyoe54ap . They are very good but bit on bit comparison and type54ap comes out on top


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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> Babur class Corvette are not having bigger punch than tyoe54ap . They are very good but bit on bit comparison and type54ap comes out on top


No it doesn’t, Babur class comes out on top. At least from what we know of their weapon systems so far. Realistically we can only decide when they both get armed because we truly know jack about what they’re getting.

If 054A gets HHQ-16A and CM302 and Babur gets CAMM-ER and the upcoming Pakistani Supersonic AsHM then Babur will have superior SAMs and comparable ASHMs, but what they’re actually getting remains to be seen.

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## Yasser76

iLION12345_1 said:


> No it doesn’t, Babur class comes out on top. At least from what we know of their weapon systems so far. Realistically we can only decide when they both get armed because we truly know jack about what they’re getting.
> 
> If 054A gets HHQ-16A and CM302 and Babur gets CAMM-ER and the upcoming Pakistani Supersonic AsHM then Babur will have superior SAMs and comparable ASHMs, but what they’re actually getting remains to be seen.



Well, it coudl well be both are just equal but PN (like PAF) wants to have both western and chinese systems as a fail safe, both will likely fill very similar roles despite 054A being a bit heavier.

I would say these 8 boats, plus upgraded 4 F-22Ps and 6 Jinnahs will gives us a very very optimal mix of western/chinese systems and also decent numbers. In fact vis a vis the IN, this will be the biggest the PN has every been in terms of force rations, add 11 AIP subs and 14 odd MPAs to that and for a country with our coastline this is a really formidable punch. Easily bigger then anything in Mid East and more then half the size of IN.

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## Basel

This could be future point defense weapon system of PN in future.

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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> Babur class Corvette are not having bigger punch than tyoe54ap . They are very good but bit on bit comparison and type54ap comes out on top



200s millions vs 350ish million per ship and 1000 tons plus difference well cannot compare apple and oranges 🍊 😉


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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be funny if the PN decided, "hey, let's use the MILGEM as the basis for an OPV!" Granted, ASFAT designed this for the market in general, but at some point (and perhaps to this day) the PN had a need for follow-on OPVs.
> 
> View attachment 770960



maybe they read my article 😫😛


syed_yusuf said:


> Babur class Corvette are not having bigger punch than tyoe54ap . They are very good but bit on bit comparison and type54ap comes out on top



they really don’t but i’m not going to explain this again for the trillionth time

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## FuturePAF

Have we retired all of the Type 21 ships already or with this will we be retiring the last of the Type 21s? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432075769036083201


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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> No it doesn’t, Babur class comes out on top. At least from what we know of their weapon systems so far. Realistically we can only decide when they both get armed because we truly know jack about what they’re getting.
> 
> If 054A gets HHQ-16A and CM302 and Babur gets CAMM-ER and the upcoming Pakistani Supersonic AsHM then Babur will have superior SAMs and comparable ASHMs, but what they’re actually getting remains to be seen.


Babur is not even close to Type 54. Type 54 in all probability has 32 VLS for Air Defence and some sort of Anti Submarine rocket. Plus Anti Ship Missiles and Anti Submarine Torpedoes

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## Primus

FuturePAF said:


> Have we retired the Type 21 ships or with this will we be retiring the last of the Type 21s?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432075769036083201


Only 2 type 21 ships remain in PN service. 

That being the PNS Tariq and the PNS Khaibar. ALL type 21 ships are going to be replaced by the type 054a and Jinnah class frigates including the OHP i believe.


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Babur is not even close to Type 54. Type 54 in all probability has 32 VLS for Air Defence and some sort of Anti Submarine rocket. Plus Anti Ship Missiles and Anti Submarine Torpedoes


Don’t just look at what it carries. Also look at the capability of what it carries, The type 054A are great frigates, but if you were following mine and Akh112s conversation you’d see there’s some issues with it due to its age and the age of the weapon systems on it. While it’s certainly bigger and carries more ordinance, the systems on Babur class are more modern, regardless, for PNs needs and uses, compared to what they have now and what the enemy has, they're both very capable ships.
I also believe both will be upgraded further as time goes on and if China completes work on its next-Gen SAMs and we install them on 54A (and F22P as well hopefully) then it could certainly bring 054A above Babur too.

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## Foinikas

Is this ship considered to be "stealth"? In 2014 the Buyukada corvette was roaming between Greek islands for about 26 hours. All the while it was being followed by the frigate Elli. If it was supposed to test if the Hellenic Navy would be able to locate it or not,it failed. Then in 2018 the Buyukada provoked again.

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## iLION12345_1

Foinikas said:


> Is this ship considered to be "stealth"? In 2014 the Buyukada corvette was roaming between Greek islands for about 26 hours. All the while it was being followed by the frigate Elli. If it was supposed to test if the Hellenic Navy would be able to locate it or not,it failed.
> View attachment 774284
> View attachment 774285
> View attachment 774286


What do you think is a “stealth” Ship? An invisible one? So you’re telling me the Hellenic navy spotted a ship off their coast after it roamed around there for *26 *hours? My god! What an Achievement!
If the Hellenic navy had failed to detect that thing then Greece should have surrendered its rights to have a navy in the first place. Theres no such thing as a stealth ship, lowering the RCS of a ship doesn’t mean making it a “stealth ship“, any country that’s hostile to another is always tracking and following the others fleet, Turkey probably has an eye on every single Hellenic navy ship before they leave port. Because guess what, real time satellite imagery exists.

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## Foinikas

iLION12345_1 said:


> What do you think is a “stealth” Ship? An invisible one? So you’re telling me the Hellenic navy spotted a ship off their coast after it roamed around there for *26 *hours? My god! What an Achievement!
> If the Hellenic navy had failed to detect that thing then Greece should have surrendered its rights to have a navy in the first place.


No,they didn't spot it after 26 hours lol! *They were following it for 26 hours* since it entered into that weird roaming. The rumors were the Turkish side considered or presented this class,at least back then,as stealth ships or with some stealth elements. Supposedly back in the early 2010s there was a lot of bragging about the Ada class.

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## iLION12345_1

Foinikas said:


> No,they didn't spot it after 26 hours lol! *They were following it for 26 hours* since it entered into that weird roaming. The rumors were the Turkish side considered or presented this class,at least back then,as stealth ships or with some stealth elements. Supposedly back in the early 2010s there was a lot of bragging about the Ada class.


I don’t think anyone here has claimed the Ada is a stealth ship, I know a lot of BS bragging goes on between Turks and Greeks about their own stuff on their forums and social media (not unique to them, it goes on between any two countries that don’t get along, India and Pakistan are no different), but the ship is just like any other modern ship, it has elements and design choices in it to reduce its RCS, but there cannot truly be a “stealth“ ship, even the US zummwalt and freedom class can be seen from quite far on radars, it’s just that looking at them on radars wouldn’t tell you what you‘re looking at as the RCS is much smaller than it’s size and the shape comes out to be different, in a nutshell that’s what all RCS reduction measures are trying to do, make the ship a little harder to detect, but much harder to identify, and such elements are in all ships that have been designed after radars became common place.

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## Foinikas

iLION12345_1 said:


> don’t think anyone here has claimed the Ada is a stealth ship


Oh no,not here. I meant back in the early and mid-2010s in the Turkish media,press,internet in general.
You see back then,this was one of the Erdogan government's pieces of propaganda. You know,new class with a "stealth design" and all. But when it was followed and the navy knew all its movements,the media here was talking like...debunking a myth or something.

I'm not saying it's not good for Pakistan. Especially if you put your own stuff on. Pakistan needs more ships. A renewal of the Pakistani Navy.

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## Akh1112

Foinikas said:


> No,they didn't spot it after 26 hours lol! *They were following it for 26 hours* since it entered into that weird roaming. The rumors were the Turkish side considered or presented this class,at least back then,as stealth ships or with some stealth elements. Supposedly back in the early 2010s there was a lot of bragging about the Ada class.



damn you followed a ship with a known route. Do you want a medal

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## Foinikas

Akh1112 said:


> damn you followed a ship with a known route. Do you want a medal


The route wasn't known. Do Indians send you a report when their warships come out and go for a stroll? This only happens with a NAVTEX for war exercises in certain areas. The ship's route and destination wasn't known and it was especially suspicious,considering the weird how close it passed from Euboia,Attica and the islands.


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## Akh1112

Foinikas said:


> The route wasn't known. Do Indians send you a report when their warships come out and go for a stroll? This only happens with a NAVTEX for war exercises in certain areas. The ship's route and destination wasn't known and it was especially suspicious,considering the weird how close it passed from Euboia,Attica and the islands.


You generally will know the whereabouts/ route of a warship in peacetime. I can tell you right now where each of the Pakistan navy’s F22P’s are.


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## Foinikas

Akh1112 said:


> You generally will know the whereabouts/ route of a warship in peacetime. I can tell you right now where each of the Pakistan navy’s F22P’s are.


Not with Turks man,not always. Especially when they're on such "missions". Provoke,test,propaganda etc.


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## Akh1112

Foinikas said:


> Not with Turks man,not always. Especially when they're on such "missions". Provoke,test,propaganda etc.


If it’ll make you feel better about yourself I’ll agree with you, even though that’s not true.

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## Akh1112

Foinikas said:


> You don't have to agree with me. I don't expect you to just nod and agree,I know you are pro-Turkish



I’ll be pro Greek if you pay me, I don’t care

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Babur is not even close to Type 54. Type 54 in all probability has 32 VLS for Air Defence and some sort of Anti Submarine rocket. Plus Anti Ship Missiles and Anti Submarine Torpedoes


Just as @iLION12345_1 said, you need to pay more attention to the technical discussions we're having on these forums. If you miss the technical details, you'll end up missing most of the cool programs the PN is working on.

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## hoopoe

IMO.. with the information at hand, Babur class is bit of a disappointment when compared to Sa’ar 6 class of corvettes…

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## khanasifm

hoopoe said:


> IMO.. with the information at hand, Babur class is bit of a disappointment when compared to Sa’ar 6 class of corvettes…



With 500 million plus each cannot cannot compare to 250/300 million ship, throw lot $ per ship and you will get more 

isreali economy and Indiatrial capability is also a factor

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## alimobin memon

Yasser76 said:


> Well, it coudl well be both are just equal but PN (like PAF) wants to have both western and chinese systems as a fail safe, both will likely fill very similar roles despite 054A being a bit heavier.
> 
> I would say these 8 boats, plus upgraded 4 F-22Ps and 6 Jinnahs will gives us a very very optimal mix of western/chinese systems and also decent numbers. In fact vis a vis the IN, this will be the biggest the PN has every been in terms of force rations, add 11 AIP subs and 14 odd MPAs to that and for a country with our coastline this is a really formidable punch. Easily bigger then anything in Mid East and more then half the size of IN.


is there evidence that CAMM-ER is better than HHQ 16 A ? maybe B version of HHQ16 B is also in tables. Tables have changed I think Chinese HHQ16 A is as potent as any counter part. West dillema needs to end. I may be wrong so please enlighten if CAMM-ER is better.

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## khanasifm

alimobin memon said:


> is there evidence that CAMM-ER is better than HHQ 16 A ? maybe B version of HHQ16 B is also in tables. Tables have changed I think Chinese HHQ16 A is as potent as any counter part. West dillema needs to end. I may be wrong so please enlighten if CAMM-ER is better.


Active radar vs semi active 😉 range is not always the only parameter

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## alimobin memon

khanasifm said:


> Active radar vs semi active 😉 range is not always the only parameter


No ones talking about range. Plus not always active is better then semi active. I still believe semi active has its benefits.

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## lcloo

alimobin memon said:


> No ones talking about range. Plus not always active is better then semi active. I still believe semi active has its benefits.


Agree with you. Semi-active is better at being stealthy because the target will not pick up radar wave emission from the missile until the terminal point of the missile's flight, which give them shorter reaction time.


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## xbat

oh! does active radar seeker activates just after launch? i dont think so, until terminal phase missile seeker is silent gets corrections from battery radar(ship radar), so ? active is much better


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## alimobin memon

xbat said:


> oh! does active radar seeker activates just after launch? i dont think so, until terminal phase missile seeker is silent gets corrections from battery radar(ship radar), so ? active is much better


Not really


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## Akh1112

alimobin memon said:


> is there evidence that CAMM-ER is better than HHQ 16 A ? maybe B version of HHQ16 B is also in tables. Tables have changed I think Chinese HHQ16 A is as potent as any counter part. West dillema needs to end. I may be wrong so please enlighten if CAMM-ER is better.


Yes, there is, I have discussed it to death in the 054a forum, go read there,

Also, nothing to states a b variant of the ship based hq-16 exists, it’s never been ‘on the tables’ or ever been adopted by anyone so. Heck, idek if ‘B’ is exported, we operate rhe hq16a


xbat said:


> oh! does active radar seeker activates just after launch? i dont think so, until terminal phase missile seeker is silent gets corrections from battery radar(ship radar), so ? active is much better


Yes, mid course by ships sensors, terminal guidance by its own. No limitations like crappy old illuminators being used on the 054a which gimp the missiles range, capabilities and engagements

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## Akh1112

so ours COULD be armed more heavily but they didn’t


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Akh1112 said:


> Yes, there is, I have discussed it to death in the 054a forum, go read there,
> 
> Also, nothing to states a b variant of the ship based hq-16 exists, it’s never been ‘on the tables’ or ever been adopted by anyone so. Heck, idek if ‘B’ is exported, we operate rhe hq16a
> 
> Yes, mid course by ships sensors, terminal guidance by its own. No limitations like crappy old illuminators being used on the 054a which gimp the missiles range, capabilities and engagements


Can CAMM ER stop Brahmose supersonic missile?
Somewhere on PDF,one indian member was saying that brahmose can be stoped by Barak 8.As Barak is active radar homing defence system and CAMM ER is also featured with active radar homing ability,so it should stop brahmose.

Also what are chances of CAMM ER against Brahmose 2?


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## iLION12345_1

Akh1112 said:


> Yes, there is, I have discussed it to death in the 054a forum, go read there,
> 
> Also, nothing to states a b variant of the ship based hq-16 exists, it’s never been ‘on the tables’ or ever been adopted by anyone so. Heck, idek if ‘B’ is exported, we operate rhe hq16a
> 
> Yes, mid course by ships sensors, terminal guidance by its own. No limitations like crappy old illuminators being used on the 054a which gimp the missiles range, capabilities and engagements


This is correct, HQ-16B is not going to be ship-borne at all, it’s only land based and so far not offered for export. 

The improved HQ-16 for naval purposes will be the HQ-16C according to Chinese and other sources, however that system is not fully ready yet, at least one source says it has been tested and a couple others say it’s at least under the works, which would make sense, China has to take these missiles somewhere and the improved land based version can be a basis for that; so maybe we will see them on our Type 054As in the future when they get upgraded, but right now, we are only get HQ-16A.


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Can CAMM ER stop Brahmose supersonic missile?
> Somewhere on PDF,one indian member was saying that brahmose can be stoped by Barak 8.As Barak is active radar homing defence system and CAMM ER is also featured with active radar homing ability,so it should stop brahmose.
> 
> Also what are chances of CAMM ER against Brahmose 2?


I’ll let the person you asked answer but just know the Brahmos isn’t actually anything special. It’s literally just a rebranded and renamed Russian P800 missile from early 2000s that the Indians like to hype up a lot As being their creation or being some god-like missile. It’s not even the better version of the P800. Just the downgraded export version, as always Indians keep saying 20 years in advance that they will “upgrade it to the better version” but always Get to it several years later.…

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## Akh1112

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Can CAMM ER stop Brahmose supersonic missile?
> Somewhere on PDF,one indian member was saying that brahmose can be stoped by Barak 8.As Barak is active radar homing defence system and CAMM ER is also featured with active radar homing ability,so it should stop brahmose.
> 
> Also what are chances of CAMM ER against Brahmose 2?



CAMM/ER are more than capable of stopping hypersonics, this has nothing to do with the type of seeker onboard, the HQ-16 can also engage hypersonics, just not as well, CAMM is far more manoeuvrable and when used in the most optimal config (ExLS, MK41,SYLVER) offers you 4x your cell count in missiles, it’s a very good system, providing our ships with a great layer of self defence, the only problem is that that’s all it is, a layer of self defence, you will not have that wide area AAW coverage SM2MR/Aster 30 would get you, but it’ll do the job just fine.


on the note of Barak-8, i don’t understand that missile, kinematically it seems particularly poor, i’m not sure whether it has some sort of sustainer motor or what but it tops out at high mach 2, meaning it’s gonna bleed energy real fast against a manoeuvring target

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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> so ours COULD be armed more heavily but they didn’t


expand on this plz ....

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Akh1112 said:


> CAMM/ER are more than capable of stopping hypersonics, this has nothing to do with the type of seeker onboard, the HQ-16 can also engage hypersonics, just not as well, CAMM is far more manoeuvrable and when used in the most optimal config (ExLS, MK41,SYLVER) offers you 4x your cell count in missiles, it’s a very good system, providing our ships with a great layer of self defence, the only problem is that that’s all it is, a layer of self defence, you will not have that wide area AAW coverage SM2MR/Aster 30 would get you, but it’ll do the job just fine.
> 
> 
> on the note of Barak-8, i don’t understand that missile, kinematically it seems particularly poor, i’m not sure whether it has some sort of sustainer motor or what but it tops out at high mach 2, meaning it’s gonna bleed energy real fast against a manoeuvring target


Just one question more bro I will not disturb you any more 🙂

If i am on warship and anti ship missile is following me, should I stop the ship and then engage the missile as if I ship will move,missile will also maneuver so it will be difficult to intercept it.

I am just wondering how our naval men handle the psychological pressure and what is their tactic in handling the incoming missile?


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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> expand on this plz ....



Right, you’re going to need to bare with me because I don’t actually know the appropriate names for the parts of a ship, so I’m going to just call them whatever lol.

so on Jinnah/Babur, we have 12-16 gws26 at the front, in front of the superstructure. The Ukrainians, did not do this, their version has 2x4 vls at the back of the ship, *without *cutting into the hull, it’s almost like a mk56 vls setup, where it’s not baked into the hull, but is sort of an add on, granted, in the Ukrainian ships it’s attached to the structures of the ship. I will attach a photo below. Of course, if space was the biggest issue, why wouldn’t they just get a 4 cell SYLVER set up and cram 16 camm-er in there, I suspect, the original plan was SYLVER, 16 cells, which would have meant 64 missiles, but in the end, the french denied us, meaning we had to go for the worst of the worst option, gws, which meant we are heavily limited in our load out, capping us at 1 per cell, vs 4 per cell like ExLS, mk41 or some SYLVER would allow. Though, as I mentioned above, we might have been able to cram an additional 12 cells towards the back of the ship, where the Ukrainians have theirs, allowing for 24 missiles.


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Just one question more bro I will not disturb you any more 🙂
> 
> If i am on warship and anti ship missile is following me, should I stop the ship and then engage the missile as if I ship will move,missile will also maneuver so it will be difficult to intercept it.
> 
> 
> I am just wondering how our naval men handle the psychological pressure and what is their tactic in handling the incoming missile?



Disturb me all you want, I’m happy to explain 
Missiles don’t follow, rather, they meet you at a given way point, adjusting their course on the way there to ensure there is an optimum intercept point. You don’t need to stop anything, you fire on the go as your self defence missile will do the exact same, it will calculate an optimum point of interception using its own, or off board guidance, to then destroy the inbound missile. But yeah, you can defeat a missile kinematically by bleeding all of its energy, however, most anti ship missiles are powered until the very end, so it’s unlikely you can do so, this also paired with the fact that ships are slow and can’t evade as well as a plane (I don’t really want to expand on that so I’ve left it really simplified lol), defeating an AShM kinematically is rare unless you’re a small fast manueverable boat, like the azmat class fac. But nah, you manuevering will have little to no effect on interception, missiles are smart, they don’t need input from the launcher*, they’ll do all of the work themselves

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

[


Akh1112 said:


> Right, you’re going to need to bare with me because I don’t actually know the appropriate names for the parts of a ship, so I’m going to just call them whatever lol.
> 
> so on Jinnah/Babur, we have 12-16 gws26 at the front, in front of the superstructure. The Ukrainians, did not do this, their version has 2x4 vls at the back of the ship, *without *cutting into the hull, it’s almost like a mk56 vls setup, where it’s not baked into the hull, but is sort of an add on, granted, in the Ukrainian ships it’s attached to the structures of the ship. I will attach a photo below. Of course, if space was the biggest issue, why wouldn’t they just get a 4 cell SYLVER set up and cram 16 camm-er in there, I suspect, the original plan was SYLVER, 16 cells, which would have meant 64 missiles, but in the end, the french denied us, meaning we had to go for the worst of the worst option, gws, which meant we are heavily limited in our load out, capping us at 1 per cell, vs 4 per cell like ExLS, mk41 or some SYLVER would allow. Though, as I mentioned above, we might have been able to cram an additional 12 cells towards the back of the ship, where the Ukrainians have theirs, allowing for 24 missiles.
> 
> 
> Disturb me all you want, I’m happy to explain
> Missiles don’t follow, rather, they meet you at a given way point, adjusting their course on the way there to ensure there is an optimum intercept point. You don’t need to stop anything, you fire on the go as your self defence missile will do the exact same, it will calculate an optimum point of interception using its own, or off board guidance, to then destroy the inbound missile. But yeah, you can defeat a missile kinematically by bleeding all of its energy, however, most anti ship missiles are powered until the very end, so it’s unlikely you can do so, this also paired with the fact that ships are slow and can’t evade as well as a plane (I don’t really want to expand on that so I’ve left it really simplified lol), defeating an AShM kinematically is rare unless you’re a small fast manueverable boat, like the azmat class fac. But nah, you manuevering will have little to no effect on interception, missiles are smart, they don’t need input from the launcher*, they’ll do all of the work themselves


Thank you bhai for such a detailed answer

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## Akh1112

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> [
> 
> Thank you bhai for such a detailed answer







Ignore literally everything about this video, just watch how the missile moves relative to the target.

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## AR KHAN

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be funny if the PN decided, "hey, let's use the MILGEM as the basis for an OPV!" Granted, ASFAT designed this for the market in general, but at some point (and perhaps to this day) the PN had a need for follow-on OPVs.
> 
> View attachment 770960


Two more Yarmouk have already been contracted.

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## iLION12345_1

AR KHAN said:


> Two more Yarmouk have already been contracted.


Source?

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## AR KHAN

iLION12345_1 said:


> Source?


Dear, munasib nahi hai. All I would say is that, I'm well informed. Filhal rumor hi samaj lain.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438850904283918343

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## Akh1112

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438850904283918343



X to doubt


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## ziya

aselsan areas electronic attack system?

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## ziya

is it V/UHF spoofing?

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Which anti ship missile will be used on Babur?
Jinnah class will have p282
Type54 ap will have yj12.
Babur class???


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438850904283918343


Any source?


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Which anti ship missile will be used on Babur?
> Jinnah class will have p282
> Type54 ap will have yj12.
> Babur class???


Likely P282 as well.


Akh1112 said:


> X to doubt


Same.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438850904283918343




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438852614901358592

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438852614901358592


Seems lime someone has been too quick off the mark without getting confirmation. I thinl we need to wait on it for a while.
A


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> Likely P282 as well


What happened to SMASH??
I have still hope for Smash.


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## iLION12345_1

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> What happened to SMASH??
> I have still hope for Smash.


Actually I believe Jinnah and Babur are both meant to have SMASH As AShM. 
P282 is meant to be a cruise missile if I’m not mistaken. Not necessarily an AShM.
@Tipu7 can confirm.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> Actually I believe Jinnah and Babur are both meant to have SMASH As AShM.
> P282 is meant to be a cruise missile if I’m not mistaken. Not necessarily an AShM.
> @Tipu7 can confirm.


And my theory is:

P282 mentioned on Jinnah class brochure is supersonic cruise missile( what we call SMASH)

And p282+ is its next step ( hypersonic)
ballistic missile.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) share your opinion plz

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ziya said:


> aselsan areas electronic attack system?
> View attachment 778422



Even Trump knows that Ares will be used.


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## ziya

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Even Trump knows that Ares will be used.


are you joking its not ares its areas,you do not know the difference,addionally its not spotted like this one on the top


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## Tipu7

iLION12345_1 said:


> Actually I believe Jinnah and Babur are both meant to have SMASH As AShM.
> P282 is meant to be a cruise missile if I’m not mistaken. Not necessarily an AShM.
> @Tipu7 can confirm.


All I know is that a new missile is coming. It will be standardized in every new vessel. Is it called Smash? P282? P282+? Who knows...

And I have always doubted the "ballistic" part as far as upcoming missiles are concerned.

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## AKINCI



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## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438852614901358592


Maybe it's not confirmed yet, but it's more likely than anything else.

With all the modernization going on in the PN, I fear where the helicopters are concerned it's going to continue to be Z-9's and seakings for some time.


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## Yasser76

Z-9 makes no sense at all, we would have to reconfigure the chopper into something totally new to integrate it with systems and weapons on MILGEM

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## The Eagle

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Which anti ship missile will be used on Babur?
> Jinnah class will have p282
> Type54 ap will have yj12.
> Babur class???



I don't think P282 is considered.

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## khanasifm

AKINCI said:


>



Interesting all 3 weapons system are 35mm ie 2x STOP and CIWS so commonality of caliber


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## monitor

Yasser76 said:


> Z-9 makes no sense at all, we would have to reconfigure the chopper into something totally new to integrate it with systems and weapons on MILGEM




AW-159 wildcat could be considered.

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## khanasifm



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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

The Eagle said:


> I don't think P282 is considered.








This picture says that p282 will be used for Jinnah class frigate

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## ziya



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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

ziya said:


> View attachment 782049
> 
> View attachment 782050
> 
> View attachment 782051
> 
> View attachment 782052


@Akh1112 @Tipu7 So it is now confirmed that Harbah anti ship missile will be used on Milgem Corvettes
PN has confidence on Harbah it seems.

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## Tipu7

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @Akh1112 @Tipu7 So it is now confirmed that Harbah anti ship missile will be used on Milgem Corvettes
> PN has confidence on Harbah it seems.


Not confirmed yet ...

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## ziya

on board turkish navy milgem burgazada with pakistan officers

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## Scorpiooo

Any update of Jinnah-class design specifications


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## khanasifm

Navy planning to bring back at-sea missile reload capability


The Navy is planning to bring back its at-sea missile reloading capability — a move analysts say reflects the growing conventional threats facing the sea service.




www.navytimes.com


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## The Ronin

__ https://www.facebook.com/DgprNavy/posts/430029975156396

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456564888147464195

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## ziya

View attachment 790564

pakistan milgem will get sortam

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## khanasifm



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## Bilal9

WarKa DaNG said:


> Does ada class corvettes contains any CIWS or any other missile defense system??



If you're asking CIWS, ADA class may not have it, larger Turkish frigates and destroyers carry US Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS.

ASELSAN has its own CIWS though (Gokdeniz) - I don't know if that will be fitted to the ADA classes for Pakistan. If not. then fitment of Chinese CIWS (Type 730 or 1130 is possible). These Chinese CIWS are gatling gun type while Gokdeniz is a heavier caliber rapid cannon with airburst rounds providing very effective blanket of ammunition for incoming missiles.

Some discussion was done in 2018 by brother @MMM-E, maybe he can kindly confirm your query.









Turkish Navy modernization plans through 2030


Without doubt Turkey today has the strongest and most numerous naval forces in the Eastern Mediterranean Turkish Navy has more Frigates, Submarines and Fast Attack Missile Boats than any other navy with significant naval fleet in the region such as the Hellenic Navy, Egyptian Navy and Israeli...



defence.pk













GOKDENIZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS)


GOKDENIZ CIWS along with 35 mm Airburst Ammunition (ATOM) developed by ASELSAN is a close-in weapon system (CIWS) highly effective




en.defenceturk.net













Type 730 CIWS - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






monitor said:


> AW-159 wildcat could be considered.



Bhai AW159 program is halted as far as I know. They could revive it but not sure.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal9 said:


> If you're asking CIWS, ADA class may not have it, larger Turkish frigates and destroyers carry US Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS.
> 
> ASELSAN has its own CIWS though (Gokdeniz) - I don't know if that will be fitted to the ADA classes for Pakistan. If not. then fitment of Chinese CIWS (Type 730 or 1130 is possible). These Chinese CIWS are gatling gun type while Gokdeniz is a heavier caliber rapid cannon with airburst rounds providing very effective blanket of ammunition for incoming missiles.
> 
> Some discussion was done in 2018 by brother @MMM-E, maybe he can kindly confirm your query.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish Navy modernization plans through 2030
> 
> 
> Without doubt Turkey today has the strongest and most numerous naval forces in the Eastern Mediterranean Turkish Navy has more Frigates, Submarines and Fast Attack Missile Boats than any other navy with significant naval fleet in the region such as the Hellenic Navy, Egyptian Navy and Israeli...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS)
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ CIWS along with 35 mm Airburst Ammunition (ATOM) developed by ASELSAN is a close-in weapon system (CIWS) highly effective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.defenceturk.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 730 CIWS - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai AW159 program is halted as far as I know. They could revive it but not sure.


Pakistani Ada Class (Babur) will have GOKDENIZ as far as we know. It’s over 800 tons Heavier and much longer than a normal Ada class.

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## WarKa DaNG

Bilal9 said:


> If you're asking CIWS, ADA class may not have it, larger Turkish frigates and destroyers carry US Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS.
> 
> ASELSAN has its own CIWS though (Gokdeniz) - I don't know if that will be fitted to the ADA classes for Pakistan. If not. then fitment of Chinese CIWS (Type 730 or 1130 is possible). These Chinese CIWS are gatling gun type while Gokdeniz is a heavier caliber rapid cannon with airburst rounds providing very effective blanket of ammunition for incoming missiles.
> 
> Some discussion was done in 2018 by brother @MMM-E, maybe he can kindly confirm your query.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish Navy modernization plans through 2030
> 
> 
> Without doubt Turkey today has the strongest and most numerous naval forces in the Eastern Mediterranean Turkish Navy has more Frigates, Submarines and Fast Attack Missile Boats than any other navy with significant naval fleet in the region such as the Hellenic Navy, Egyptian Navy and Israeli...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS)
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ CIWS along with 35 mm Airburst Ammunition (ATOM) developed by ASELSAN is a close-in weapon system (CIWS) highly effective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.defenceturk.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 730 CIWS - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai AW159 program is halted as far as I know. They could revive it but not sure.


Thanks for clearing my doubt

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## khanasifm

Bilal9 said:


> If you're asking CIWS, ADA class may not have it, larger Turkish frigates and destroyers carry US Phalanx Mk.15 CIWS.
> 
> ASELSAN has its own CIWS though (Gokdeniz) - I don't know if that will be fitted to the ADA classes for Pakistan. If not. then fitment of Chinese CIWS (Type 730 or 1130 is possible). These Chinese CIWS are gatling gun type while Gokdeniz is a heavier caliber rapid cannon with airburst rounds providing very effective blanket of ammunition for incoming missiles.
> 
> Some discussion was done in 2018 by brother @MMM-E, maybe he can kindly confirm your query.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish Navy modernization plans through 2030
> 
> 
> Without doubt Turkey today has the strongest and most numerous naval forces in the Eastern Mediterranean Turkish Navy has more Frigates, Submarines and Fast Attack Missile Boats than any other navy with significant naval fleet in the region such as the Hellenic Navy, Egyptian Navy and Israeli...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ Close-in Weapon System (CIWS)
> 
> 
> GOKDENIZ CIWS along with 35 mm Airburst Ammunition (ATOM) developed by ASELSAN is a close-in weapon system (CIWS) highly effective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.defenceturk.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 730 CIWS - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai AW159 program is halted as far as I know. They could revive it but not sure.



pn has about dozenUS phynx where at least four were on type 21 so possible danishopv and babar class will get then time will tell

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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> pn has about dozenUS phynx where at least four were on type 21 so possible danishopv and babar class will get then time will tell


PN has 12 Phalanx Block 1B systems. They’re currently being used on the PN tankers as well as the Tabuk and Yarmuk.

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## Bilal9

khanasifm said:


> pn has about dozenUS phynx where at least four were on type 21 so possible danishopv and babar class will get then time will tell





iLION12345_1 said:


> PN has 12 Phalanx Block 1B systems. They’re currently being used on the PN tankers as well as the Tabuk and Yarmuk.



If PN can re-use them then good on them.

I wonder if you can get these suckers on the used weapons market and refurbish them (and if they'd be worth it after the fact). Seems like a lot of the radar electronics and programming involved would be proprietary and re-calibrating them would be a bit tough. Turkish Navy has these things all over their larger boats.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal9 said:


> If PN can re-use them then good on them.
> 
> I wonder if you can get these suckers on the used weapons market and refurbish them (and if they'd be worth it after the fact). Seems like a lot of the radar electronics and programming involved would be proprietary and re-calibrating them would be a bit tough. Turkish Navy has these things all over their larger boats.


All 12 systems will remain in use, Block 1B is currently the most modern version of Phalanx, still the mainstay CIWS of the US navy as well, So it’s definitely got a lot of life left in it. They will likely end up on any ship that doesn’t get GOKDENIZ or AK1130. Currently at least 5 are known to be in Use on Different PN ships +2 on the Tariq class that will also be reused.

As for finding them in the black market, maybe, many of them have been made, but I assume US is careful with them to not let them fall into the wrong hands.

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## Bilal9

iLION12345_1 said:


> All 12 systems will remain in use, Block 1B is currently the most modern version of Phalanx, still the mainstay CIWS of the US navy as well, So it’s definitely got a lot of life left in it. They will likely end up on any ship that doesn’t get GOKDENIZ or AK1130. Currently at least 5 are known to be in Use on Different PN ships +2 on the Tariq class that will also be reused.
> 
> As for finding them in the black market, maybe, many of them have been made, but I assume US is careful with them to not let them fall into the wrong hands.



Thanks for the tidbits - great to know.

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## dBSPL

On-the-job training of PN personnel, who will be assigned to Babur class frigates, continues with full-speed.
















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465697929994268678

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## aziqbal

Great to see 

there will be training and Turkish continent will be onboard the Pakistani warships during the commissioning and active service for quite a few months before Pakistan goes solo 

even then Turkish will have contract to take care of any issues arising 

this co-operation does not just mean we are buying warships from Turkey this goes much deeper

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat



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## dBSPL

F280 PNS Babur 
F515 TCG Istanbul
F511 TCG Heybeliada
and Atatürk's memory, Savarona.

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## nomi007

dBSPL said:


> F280 PNS Babur
> F515 TCG Istanbul
> F511 TCG Heybeliada
> and Atatürk's memory, Savarona.


i was thinking that f515 is babur.


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## syed_yusuf

It seems that babur will be inducted to PN by this year. Along with two type 54ap. Three new frigates in one year ,. Good addition to PN. I am also assuming that in 2022 first of the hangout will join PN
A very good fleet upgrade by any means


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## xbat

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems that babur will be inducted to PN by this year.


very unlikely

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## JawadKKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems that babur will be inducted to PN by this year. Along with two type 54ap. Three new frigates in one year ,. Good addition to PN. I am also assuming that in 2022 first of the hangout will join PN
> A very good fleet upgrade by any means


Nope. if everything goes on schedule then deliveries are expected between 2023 to 2025. IMO, mid of 2023 for first ship at best. But yes chinese ship industry is giant, we will have 2 more tughrils and perhaps 1 hangoor.

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## ghazi52

The second ship of the Babur class, PNS Khaibar is currently under construction in Istanbul, and two more ships, PNS Badr and Tariq are being constructed in Karachi. PNS Badr is expected to be launched in mid-summer 2022.

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## xbat



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## ziya

jinnah class more beatiful than istif class

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## Scorpiooo

Most of the ships will join PN till 2025 , and hope fully construction of jinnah may be starts at that time


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## nomi007

Turkish ship industry is very slow,

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## araz

nomi007 said:


> Turkish ship industry is very slow,


It does not need to be any faster than what it is. You develop your industry based on the demand. The reason the Chinese are so quick is because their navy has a huge requirement for build up and all of their produce is mostly absorbed locally. No one can produce ships as quickly as the Chinese because of this demand. If the same demand was there is South Korea they would also be producing the ships at this rate.
A

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

nomi007 said:


> Turkish ship industry is very slow,


There are transferable ship-building techniques/skills/people, etc. that countries can utilise in naval ship-building industry from their civilian/commercial side. And since the three East Asian countries (China/S. Korea/Japan) accounted for over 95% of the global commericial vessels production by deadweight, they are in a huge advantage to utilise those resources.

Techniques such as "block construction", which makes considerable use of prefabricated sections with pre-installed equipment/pipes/electrical cables, to minimize the effort needed to assemble or install components later on deep within the hull once it is welded together.

By building entire multi-deck segments of the hull/superstructure elsewhere in the yard, then transported to the building dock or slipway, then lifted into place using a gantry style crane which has a lift capacity of 1,000+ tonnes, will be a far more efficient and quick way to build. (Mind you, some of these gantry style cranes having a lift capacity of 4,000+ tonnes, are used to build aircraft carriers). Those multi-deck segments are welded together by the laser hybrid welding technique. You really need to be at the top of your game to pump out ships from the yards like crazy.

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## dBSPL

Although Milgem ADA class corvettes are 4 sister ships in the same class, there is a significant localization difference (during the system design and first construction), especially between the 1st and 3rd,4th ships. So, Could the MILGEM program actually aim to acquire a technological competence and elimination of foreign dependency for the Turkish naval industry? At the beginning of the MILGEM's first ship project, locality rate was around 25-30%. We have now reached the level of 75% with TCG Istanbul. For the TF-2000 and other further MILGEM frigates, it is aimed to exceed 80%.

Could we be missing the fact that the integration of newly developed systems with ships is the first time? Could we be missing the fact that these shipbuilding schedules and subsequent testing and evaluation processes are proceeding with a schedule in line with the navy's own inventory and a resource management within the budget allocated to it? Or, does anyone know here which import items of MILGEM program has had supply problems with after they started ship production? Or more specifically, after a private shipyard won the tender for 3 MILGEM class corvettes in 2013 (3 ships were to be delivered in 36 months) and despite having the physical-technical competence, does anyone know for what political reasons the tender was cancelled? I'm afraid you need a little more than wikipedia for answers to these kinds of questions.

If we are talking about a ship that has all engineering packages completed, ship classification and certification completed and mass production process started... If there is a smooth cash flow, unhindered and timely delivery of subsystems; there is at least 6-7 shipyards in Turkiye that could launch a corvette every 6 months which have the enough processing capacity/tech and technical infrastructure. When there is no problem in these areas, or have hurry for some reason: SSB anounced that Turkish navy will it put 4 I-class frigates into service by 2025? As similiar example, Ukrainian corvette be delivered to Ukranian navy in this year...

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## Super Falcon

Pros and cons of these corvetes

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan should focus on 7000 ton destroyers collabration with turkey

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## dBSPL

PN MİLGEM 3rd Project Review Meeting was held at ITK ASFAT Building with the participation of the 2nd Chief of Pakistan Navy Vice Admiral Imran Ahmed and the accompanying delegation. Despite the pandemic, it was confirmed that the project was progressing on its schedule and that there was no disruption in the planning.

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## Joe Shearer

BHarwana said:


> This is a good speed for a ship of this size.


For a corvette?


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## aziqbal

dBSPL said:


> Although Milgem ADA class corvettes are 4 sister ships in the same class, there is a significant localization difference (during the system design and first construction), especially between the 1st and 3rd,4th ships. So, Could the MILGEM program actually aim to acquire a technological competence and elimination of foreign dependency for the Turkish naval industry? At the beginning of the MILGEM's first ship project, locality rate was around 25-30%. We have now reached the level of 75% with TCG Istanbul. For the TF-2000 and other further MILGEM frigates, it is aimed to exceed 80%.
> 
> Could we be missing the fact that the integration of newly developed systems with ships is the first time? Could we be missing the fact that these shipbuilding schedules and subsequent testing and evaluation processes are proceeding with a schedule in line with the navy's own inventory and a resource management within the budget allocated to it? Or, does anyone know here which import items of MILGEM program has had supply problems with after they started ship production? Or more specifically, after a private shipyard won the tender for 3 MILGEM class corvettes in 2013 (3 ships were to be delivered in 36 months) and despite having the physical-technical competence, does anyone know for what political reasons the tender was cancelled? I'm afraid you need a little more than wikipedia for answers to these kinds of questions.
> 
> If we are talking about a ship that has all engineering packages completed, ship classification and certification completed and mass production process started... If there is a smooth cash flow, unhindered and timely delivery of subsystems; there is at least 6-7 shipyards in Turkiye that could launch a corvette every 6 months which have the enough processing capacity/tech and technical infrastructure. When there is no problem in these areas, or have hurry for some reason: SSB anounced that Turkish navy will it put 4 I-class frigates into service by 2025? As similiar example, Ukrainian corvette be delivered to Ukranian navy in this year...



the hard graft is done from 2005-2020 these 15 years allowed Turkey to work out how to build warships 

they built 1 and then they found out the mistake they were making and it looks years of blood, sweat and tears + added political issues 

now that experience is in the bag and we are seeing a break neck speed of warship construction both for Turkey + Exporters 

I was very worried at the start it would take Turkey another 15 years to build 4 x MILGEM for Pakistan and I would go on forever and even strain our friendship 

clearly I was wrong and Turkey has shown what a great player it is in the warship business

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## HRK



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## RAMPAGE

HRK said:


>


Is this the first time we are hearing that the PN Milgems will be armed with a Pakistani cruise missile or is this old news?


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## Reichsmarschall

HRK said:


>


Not happy with the choice of vls

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## HRK

Reichsmarschall said:


> Not happy with the choice of vls


I think we do not have another VLS sys available as alternative. Chinese system is coming with Type-54A/P

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## HRK

RAMPAGE said:


> Is this the first time we are hearing that the PN Milgems will be armed with a Pakistani cruise missile or is this old news?


old news


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

RAMPAGE said:


> Is this the first time


Yes first time. it will be Harbah.

he said 
"For the surface to surface missile,We have the Pakistan national made guided missile, *which we saw*"

this part"which we saw" indicates towards Harbah cruise Missile because it was shown there.

@HRK

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## HRK

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Yes first time. it will be Harbah.
> 
> he said
> "For the surface to surface missile,We have the Pakistan national made guided missile, *which we saw*"
> 
> this part"which we saw" indicates towards Harbah cruise Missile because it was shown there.
> 
> @HRK


Harba is one of the possible missiles which will be integrated other one is SMASH.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

HRK said:


> Harba is one of the possible missiles which will be integrated other one is SMASH.


But he said:
"Which we saw".
This line clarifies that it will surely be Harbah.

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## HRK

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> But he said:
> "Which we saw".
> This line clarifies that it will surely be Harbah.


yes it is as of now but Milgem is not getting deliver soon so in my opinion we should wait for final choice.

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## Wesen Hunter

No Towed sonar in these and Jinnah class frigates?


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## Tipu7

The second vessel should have launched by now. Apparently, there is delay of couple of weeks if not months.

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## dBSPL

Wesen Hunter said:


> No Towed sonar in these and Jinnah class frigates?


In MILGEM-I class frigates, which we can call sister class of PN-Milgem ships, Aselsan DÜFAS towed sonar system integrated into the HIZIR TKAS System will be used.

DÜFAS (Low Frequency Towed Active Sonar), where materials and transducers with piezoelectric single crystal ceramic technology that will operate in the low frequency band (3kHz) below 5kHz in active mode will be used, It is designed to be placed in place of the Towed Decoy on the towed structure (also known as the Torpedo Detection Array) in the Aselsan product HIZIR TKAS. Thanks to DÜFAS, HIZIR TKAS Torpedo Detection Array will be able to operate both passive and active modes.

DÜFAS


https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HIZIRLFAS_Aselsan_Low_Frequency_Towed_Active_Sonar_8613.pdf


HIZIR


https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HIZIR_Torpedo_Countermeasure_System_for_Surface_Ships_7722.pdf



PN, will be the second user of the HIZIR System within the scope of the PN-MILGEM Project. In other words, although there is no explanation on this subject, we can say that the Pakistani navy will almost certainly use DÜFAS on the ships in question.

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## YurtDefence

ASFAT;
Production of PN MILGEM #3 PNS BADR continues in accordance with the calendar at KS&EW Shipyard. In the PN MİlGEM project, we are one step closer to the goal of launching 2 ships in 2022.

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## ABBASIA

Third Milgem getting ready in Karachi

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## Cool_Soldier

Keep the excellent work up


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## ghazi52

.,.,.
At Karachi Ship yard..

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519275543790858241
CHARACTERISTICS OF CAMM-ER MISSILE​





*Weight:* 160 kg





*Length:* 4.2 m





*Diameter:* 190 mm





*Range:* In excess of 40 km





*Speed:* Supersonic





FEATURES​




*Operational features:*

Advanced RF digital seeker combined with data link for target updates delivers exceptional missile accuracy and high single shot kill probability
Self defence for vessels operating alone and autonomously as well as local area defence of other vessels in the vicinity
Albatros NG can operate with any 3D surveillance radar
Two-way RF data link with full 360 degrees coverage
Soft Vertical Launch (SVL) reduces system weight, provides flexible installation and fast reaction times
*Platform integration:*

The Albatros NG Command & Control (C2) is designed to enable flexible integration with both new and existing naval Combat Management Systems (CMS).
Albatros NG provides air defence capability for platforms from patrol vessel, corvettes to destroyers. It also provides a complementary air defence layer for larger vessels such as frigates and destroyers already equipped with a long range air defence system.
Albatros NG, in coordination with the ship’s Command Management System (CMS), can operate in integrated mode under the ship’s CMS control or in autonomous mode when control is exercised by the Albatros NG operator.
Compact size and low weight enable high missile load out.
SVL eliminates the need for an efflux management system within the vertical launch module thereby reducing the space taken up by the launcher as well as reducing launcher maintenance and stress on the ship hull.

=====================================

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## Tank131

Pakistan should have tried to contract Italy to provide Sylver A50 launchers which would have enabled quad packing. As it is Albatross NG allows for smaller footprint launch cell enabling more cells per square foot. If they had an 8 call A50 though, it would enable 32 missiles.

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## Abid123

2800 ton Corvette? That's a pretty massive Corvette. Frigates start at around 3000 ton.


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## dBSPL

Abid123 said:


> 2800 ton Corvette? That's a pretty massive Corvette. Frigates start at around 3000 ton.


Say hello to Turkish type classification.

Let me introduce you to the Turkish type LPD project.








LPD İhalesi'ni Sedef Tersanesi kazandı


Savunma Sanayi Müsteşarlığı tarafından ihaleye çıkarılan Havuzlu Çıkarma Gemisi (LPD) ihalesini Sedef Tersanesi'nin kazandığı açıklandı.



www.denizhaber.net




( 27.12.2013 / SEDEF won the LPD tender )

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## BaybarsHan



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## merzifonlu

Pakistan MİLGEMs will use Atmaca anti-ship missiles. 









Pakistan MİLGEM'leri ATMACA ile vuracak


Pakistan MİLGEM projesi kapsamında Pakistan Deniz Kuvvetleri için inşa ve donatım faaliyetleri devam eden MİLGEM korvetleri, ATMACA Gemisavar Füzesini kullanacak. ASELSAN’ın 2021 Faaliyet Raporunda, Pakistan MİLGEM’leri için ATMACA Atış/ Kontrol Sistemninin üretildiği ve sistemin fabrika kabul...




m5dergi.com

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

merzifonlu said:


> Pakistan MİLGEMs will use Atmaca anti-ship missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan MİLGEM'leri ATMACA ile vuracak
> 
> 
> Pakistan MİLGEM projesi kapsamında Pakistan Deniz Kuvvetleri için inşa ve donatım faaliyetleri devam eden MİLGEM korvetleri, ATMACA Gemisavar Füzesini kullanacak. ASELSAN’ın 2021 Faaliyet Raporunda, Pakistan MİLGEM’leri için ATMACA Atış/ Kontrol Sistemninin üretildiği ve sistemin fabrika kabul...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m5dergi.com


@Tipu7 sab khalas hu gia.
In-house missile ka sapna dekh rahe the ham tu


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## HRK

merzifonlu said:


> Pakistan MİLGEMs will use Atmaca anti-ship missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan MİLGEM'leri ATMACA ile vuracak
> 
> 
> Pakistan MİLGEM projesi kapsamında Pakistan Deniz Kuvvetleri için inşa ve donatım faaliyetleri devam eden MİLGEM korvetleri, ATMACA Gemisavar Füzesini kullanacak. ASELSAN’ın 2021 Faaliyet Raporunda, Pakistan MİLGEM’leri için ATMACA Atış/ Kontrol Sistemninin üretildiği ve sistemin fabrika kabul...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m5dergi.com


Error 404 page not found .... ???


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## araz

HRK said:


> Error 404 page not found .... ???


Does not make sense as HArbah is active in PN.
A

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

araz said:


> Does not make sense as HArbah is active in PN


There was only limited production of Harbah.We were waiting for SMASh but with Atmaca.
Sab khatam

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## sparten

So, can these stop a conspiracy or interference?

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## Bratva

araz said:


> Does not make sense as HArbah is active in PN.
> A



There are some issues with HARBA which is one of the reasons its limited role out is only for FAC-M 3 & 4. Once Harba issues are sorted out, It will see fleet wide deployment

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## merzifonlu

Interesting. This page removed


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## dBSPL

"The use of the HARBAH Cruise Missile on ships was expected, but as in the JINNAH Class, a new hypersonic missile named P282 is planned to be use on these ships."

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524407807440822274

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

It looks like the reports of the PN planning on 6 Jinnah-class frigates were confirmed/verified by the PN.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

dBSPL said:


> "The use of the HARBAH Cruise Missile on ships was expected, but as in the JINNAH Class, a new hypersonic missile named P282 is planned to be use on these ships."
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524407807440822274


He is speculating on the basis of just a poster.

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## farooqbhai007

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> He is speculating on the basis of just a poster.


His news is based on his inside links into the turkish def sector , that poster is of Jinnah class not Milgem that he has linked , 
Further more every PN Milgem poster that has been released so far has 3 cell rectangular missile rack , so in no way was the Harba or Atamca ever even depicted on the PN Milgem
Posting 3 PN Milgem posters , First poster from cutting ceremony of first ship in turkey , second from cutting ceremony of 4th ship at ksew , and third poster is from ASFAT official brochure of PN Milgem from DIMDEX 2022
If u see in the first poster the containers depicted are the same size and shape as P282 , while that changed in 2nd and 3rd posters , so its pretty clear Harba was never intended to be deployed on it as the circular canisters of harba are not shown in any image, but P282 has always had a greater chance.

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## HRK

araz said:


> Does not make sense as HArbah is active in PN.
> A


Source Article is not reliable as the article is removed


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> There was only limited production of Harbah.We were waiting for SMASh but with Atmaca.
> Sab khatam


Bhai sabar aur Hosla rakhoo ... it's not doom and gloom scenario


Bratva said:


> There are some issues with HARBA


Such as ... ??

Harba is ship based Babur as per reports .... so I don't think there must be some issue with this system, but your input about this matter would be valuable


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks like the reports of the PN planning on 6 Jinnah-class frigates were confirmed/verified by the PN.


Good news but If you could share the article or some other source then plz share

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## syedakm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks like the reports of the PN planning on 6 Jinnah-class frigates were confirmed/verified by the PN.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519147928866197507

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## Aamir Hussain

dBSPL said:


> "The use of the HARBAH Cruise Missile on ships was expected, but as in the JINNAH Class, a new hypersonic missile named P282 is planned to be use on these ships."
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524407807440822274



Hmmm I see no torps!!


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It looks like the reports of the PN planning on 6 Jinnah-class frigates were confirmed/verified by the PN.


Now That's huge.
Phir agle 10 saal koi naval ship kharidne ki zururat nahi pare gi.

4 Type 054 A P Frigates.
4 Babar Corvettes 
6 upcoming Jinnah class frigates.

Ab 16 vls ki koi shikaet nahi PN se.


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## Primus

Areesh said:


> Should have been named
> 
> Nawaz
> Hasan
> Hussain
> Shehbaz
> Maryam
> Hamza
> 
> While Milgem coervettes can be named
> 
> Zardari
> Bakhtawar
> Bilawal
> Asifa
> 
> Disappointed with these names that PN has chosen


This made me laugh and cry at the same time


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## Tipu7

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @Tipu7 sab khalas hu gia.
> In-house missile ka sapna dekh rahe the ham tu


Lets see how things will end up. The configuration of Pakistan Milgems has changed several times. Till the release of final product, we should keep space for variabilities in sensors and weapons.

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## TheDarkKnight

Areesh said:


> Should have been named
> 
> Nawaz
> Hasan
> Hussain
> Shehbaz
> Maryam
> Hamza
> 
> While Milgem coervettes can be named
> 
> Zardari
> Bakhtawar
> Bilawal
> Asifa
> 
> Disappointed with these names that PN has chosen


The supply tankers, used to supply diesel to ships, can be called Fazlu.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Pakistan to launch 3rd Babur class guided missile heavy corvette this month​
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/author/web-desk
Web Desk

12:21 AM | 13 May, 2022








KARACHI – Pakistan will launch the 3rd Babur class guided missile heavy corvette, PNS Badr, on May 20.

According to the Pakistan Strategic Forum, "The class of four Babur corvettes are being built under the joint venture MILGEM project between Pakistan and Turkey, with 2 ships being built in Istanbul, Turkey and 2 in Karachi, Pakistan at a cost of around $1.5 Billion to the Pakistan Navy. The Babur Class Corvettes are 3,000 tonne multi-mission platforms, equipped for anti-ship warfare (AShW), anti-submarine warfare (ASW) as well as anti-air warfare (AAW).

"In the Anti-Surface category, the corvettes will be armed with ATMACA anti-ship missiles, with two four-cell launchers. ASuW helicopters can also be deployed from the ship, carrying anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons.


"In anti-air warfare, the corvettes have a 12 cell GWS-26 vertical launch system (VLS) that carries the MBDA Albatros NG/Common Anti-Air Modular Missile-Extended Range (CAMM-ER) surface-to-air missile (SAM) with a range of between 50-65 kilometres. The Babur-class will also use an Aselsan Gökdeniz dual 35 mm close-in-weapon-system (CIWS) with Aselsan ATOM airburst ammunition for terminal and point air defense.

"In Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), the corvettes have two 3-cell 324 mm lightweight torpedoes launchers as well as the Yakamos hull-mounted sonar and a HIZIR towed array sonar system as well as decoy. ASW helicopters can also be deployed from the ship with submarine hunter-killer capabilities.

"Other weapons systems include a 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapid main naval gun and two Aselsan STOP 25 mm machine guns. The ships will also have a 10-ton capacity helicopter hangar and deck. The warships have a range of 9,300 kilometres and are powered by General Electric LM2500 CODAD engines.

"The electronics suit for the four ships will be supplied by Aselsan at a cost of 215 million dollars which includes a main 3D AESA S-band naval radar, ASELSAN ALPER LPI Surface Radar, AKREP (AKR-D Block B-1/2) Fire Control Radar, SATCOM, a new network-oriented battle-management system, ARES-2NC ESM modules, ELINT and SIGINT modules, Electronic Warfare (EW) modules, SeaEye-AHTAPOT EO Reconnaisance and Survellience System, ASELSAN Piri (Infrared Search and Track) IRST system, as well as the Yakamos hull-mounted sonar system and HIZIR torpedo countermeasure system. The HIZIR is a complete suite consisting of a towed array, decoy array and expendable decoys."










Pakistan to launch 3rd Babur class guided missile heavy corvette this month


KARACHI – Pakistan will launch the 3rd Babur class guided missile heavy corvette, PNS Badr, on May 20. googletag.cmd.push(function() {




en.dailypakistan.com.pk

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## PakFactor

Bratva said:


> There are some issues with HARBA which is one of the reasons its limited role out is only for FAC-M 3 & 4. Once Harba issues are sorted out, It will see fleet wide deployment



Question, what's the issue with HARBA?


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## -blitzkrieg-

Huffal said:


> This made me laugh and cry at the same time


Dont u know we have pns zulfiqar and pns larkana..



Areesh said:


> Should have been named
> 
> Nawaz
> Hasan
> Hussain
> Shehbaz
> Maryam
> Hamza
> 
> While Milgem coervettes can be named
> 
> Zardari
> Bakhtawar
> Bilawal
> Asifa
> 
> Disappointed with these names that PN has chosen


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## Madni Bappa

Areesh said:


> Should have been named
> 
> Nawaz
> Hasan
> Hussain
> Shehbaz
> Maryam
> Hamza
> 
> While Milgem coervettes can be named
> 
> Zardari
> Bakhtawar
> Bilawal
> Asifa
> 
> Disappointed with these names that PN has chosen


Leave Navy and Air Force out of it.

It's mostly the melodramatic teenage drama queen Army with it's "afsar" minded uncles. Who have been shafting Pakistan for decades.

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## Aamir Hussain

GE LM2500 is a gas turbine engine. I wonder where the CODAD configuration is coming from when it should be CODAG if gas turbine is Being used.


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## Gripen9

Aamir Hussain said:


> GE LM2500 is a gas turbine engine. I wonder where the CODAD configuration is coming from when it should be CODAG if gas turbine is Being used.


Let's hope the gas turbine is not embargoes by unkil at the last moment...


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## Sohail Niazai

-blitzkrieg- said:


> Dont u know we have pns zulfiqar and pns larkana..


PNS Zulfiqar is not Zulfiqar Bhutto. Its named after Zulfiqar Sword. All ships of this class are sword names.

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## -blitzkrieg-

Sohail Niazai said:


> PNS Zulfiqar is not Zulfiqar Bhutto. Its named after Zulfiqar Sword. All ships of this class are sword names.


Yea dear I know but such dual reasonings is our past time.. esp.. as there was a time our navy was hijacked by Zardari. A lot of shameful tales that I dont want to go to here. I wouldnt have had such doubts if zulfiqar wasnt Inaugurated in 2009 during ppp era.

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## Primus

-blitzkrieg- said:


> Dont u know we have pns zulfiqar and pns larkana..


Pns zulfiqar means sword. Not ZAB 😂


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## Bratva

PakFactor said:


> Question, what's the issue with HARBA?



Nothing wrong with its long range or sensor suit. But Making things indigenous while under sanction from America tend to cause issues and those issues will take a decade or so to resolve. The indigenous program started with the advent of Harba. Hence Harba is being offered for exports. 

But those issues still exist and are preventing Harba for fleet wide adoption and it is still restricted to FAC-3 and FAC-4 and C-802 and CM-402 are pretty much primary weapon for the rest of the fleet

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## Abid123

Great but need to replace our "ancient" Zulfiqar class with 4 new modern frigates.


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## Sulman Badshah

Abid123 said:


> Great but need to replace our "ancient" Zulfiqar class with 4 new modern frigates.


they are not ancient .. we got them in 2007 and they can serve us beyond 2030 
They can be upgraded with better sensors 
although their hull have pretty much life left

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Bratva said:


> Nothing wrong with its long range or sensor suit. But Making things indigenous while under sanction from America tend to cause issues and those issues will take a decade or so to resolve. The indigenous program started with the advent of Harba. Hence Harba is being offered for exports.
> 
> But those issues still exist and are preventing Harba for fleet wide adoption and it is still restricted to FAC-3 and FAC-4 and C-802 and CM-402 are pretty much primary weapon for the rest of the fleet


How can we offer it in international markete when we at home have issues with this?
Strange.
If we have still not mastered our indeginous anti ship technology,why offer it to other countries?

If we are facing issues with subsonic cruise Missile,then dream of supersonic cruise missile will then take another decade to be materialized.


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## Bratva

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> How can we offer it in international marketed when we at home have issues with this?
> Strange.
> If we have still not mastered our indigenous anti ship technology,why offer it to other countries?
> 
> If we are facing issues with subsonic cruise Missile,then dream of supersonic cruise missile will then take another decade to be materialized.



The deal was sweetened with ToT offer to potential customer A.K.A Qatar. I doubt anyone will buy the missile with the intent to make it a primary Cruise missile for their warships . Whoever buys the missile only with the intent to gain ToT with missile. So they can make their own ASCM tech. 

Offering for export vs Anyone interested in buying is 2 different things. 

Nobody bought Block-1 JF-17 while it was cleared for exports in 2010. 

Block-2 which rectified and enhanced the the performance of Block-1 was bought by Nigeria and Myanmar only. Post 2015

Qatar, Azerbaijan, Argentina, IRAQ all wanted JF-17 from 2015 onwards. But they didnt buy block-2 did they now? They waited for Block-3 to come and now interest is gaining once again. Block-2 and 2 seater crashed did dampen the mood of those countries as @Raider 21 mentioned. Now they back to wait and watch and be cautious about the purchase once again

Point being at this stage, Only that country will buy Harba who wanna develop their cruise missile industry. Other serious potential buyers will go for Chinese or Western solutions for Anti Ship Cruise Missile

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## Cool_Soldier

Second Ship has been Launched today in Karachi.
Congrats .
Remaining two are under construction in one Pakistan and other in Turkey.


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## Sohail Niazai

Cool_Soldier said:


> Second Ship has been Launched today in Karachi.
> Congrats .
> Remaining two are under construction in one Pakistan and other in Turkey.


I was third ship launch


----------



## ghazi52

,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=423709452537097

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Launching Ceremony of MILGEM Class Corvette PNS BADR held at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW). Prime Minister of Islamic Republic of Pakistan Mian Muhammad Shehbaz Sharif graced the occasion as Chief Guest.

The newly launched corvette is equipped with state of the art weapons & sensors including surface to surface, surface to air missiles and anti-submarine weapons, which would significantly boost Pakistan Navy’s defensive and offensive capabilities. Contract for construction of four MILGEM Corvettes for PN was signed between DGMP and M/s ASFAT in 2018; wherein, two ships will be constructed at Istanbul Naval Shipyard (INSY), Turkey and other two ships at KS&EW, Pakistan. In this regard, 1st Ship of the Project, PNS BABUR was launched at Turkey in August 2021.

On the occasion, the honorable Chief Guest expressed it a historic occasion as Ministry of Defence Production, Pakistan Navy, Karachi Shipyard and M/s ASFAT of Turkey had jointly supported construction of this state of the art platform. 

The Prime Minister appreciated the performance of KS&EW and reiterated that indigenization is at the forefront of our national policy and it is very encouraging to see modern warships being built in Pakistan. The Chief Guest also highlighted that MILGEM Project will enable acquisition of much needed design and construction capability for future needs and export potential.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in his message on the occasion extended felicitation on timely completion of ongoing Pakistan-Turkey MILGEM project despite COVID pandemic. He highlighted that MILGEM project is manifestation of deep rooted historical ties and willingness to share of expertise in the Defence industry between the two brotherly countries.

Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi, in his address underscored that Pakistan’s geographical position and current geo strategic environment demands building of a strong Navy to defend maritime interests. Our sea trade routes and vast Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) needs to be effectively safeguarded. 

The Naval Chief underlined that PN MILGEM Ships will play an important role in catering operational needs of Pakistan Navy. He highlighted that Karachi Shipyard is one of the few public sector organizations that made remarkable turnaround during last decade. Growth of such a heavy engineering and shipbuilding complex, paves way for broadening technological base of the country in maritime domain, which is essentially required for future development of Pakistan.

Earlier MD KS&EW, Rear Admiral Ather Saleem in his welcome note highlighted that Karachi Shipyard is fully cognizant and aligned with goals set forth by Govt and Pakistan Navy for pursuing self-reliance in naval shipbuilding sector. PN MILGEM corvette is a testimony of our commitment to this national cause.

The ceremony was also attended by Minister of National Defence Turkey and other high ranking government officials of Pakistan & Turkey, Pakistan Navy and KS&EW.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Oublious

Congrats to Pakistan, you have a corvette that is not downgraded like the countries in the middle east , you have SIGINT and EW capable ships what is real important in a warfare. Only ECM is not enough, so againg congrats with your newtoy.

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## waz

Oublious said:


> Congrats to Pakistan, you have a corvette that is not downgraded like the countries in the middle east , you have SIGINT and EW capable ships what is real important in a warfare. Only ECM is not enough, so againg congrats with your newtoy.



Yep hilarious seeing how much the ME nations paid for those ships as well.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Congrats to the PN...

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## TheDarkKnight

Oublious said:


> Congrats to Pakistan, you have a corvette that is not downgraded like the countries in the middle east , you have SIGINT and EW capable ships what is real important in a warfare. Only ECM is not enough, so againg congrats with your newtoy.


There are so many more points:
- For the capabilities PN got, it was very cost effective
- Joint partnership and TOT
- This will help develop the defense industry of a close ally and friend Turkey. Pakistan is glad that Turk defense industry is growing as well with these projects.
- The freedom to modify and add subsystems. Its not tied or closed to the OEM only.

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## Oublious

TheDarkKnight said:


> - The freedom to modify and add subsystems. Its not tied or closed to the OEM only.




The last part is really important, imagine PN want to upgrade ther ships with x weapon. You will able to put that weapon in that ship, what would happen if you haved a german or france ship  ? They will ask billion dollars to intregate your own weapons to ther CMS.

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## CHI RULES

Oublious said:


> Congrats to Pakistan, you have a corvette that is not downgraded like the countries in the middle east , you have SIGINT and EW capable ships what is real important in a warfare. Only ECM is not enough, so againg congrats with your newtoy.


Cheers but it is fact that Pak defence forces since decades have the habit either to get tailor made products or to upgrade them later on. The visible examples are Type-21 frigates, Agosta 90s, Mirages and F7PGs. Similarly if I am not wrong Pak Milgem corvettes have heavy tonnage with VLS and perhaps different type ASHM from Turkey. Same goes for Pak MBTS and even lighter weapons.

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## TheDarkKnight

Oublious said:


> The last part is really important, imagine PN want to upgrade ther ships with x weapon. You will able to put that weapon in that ship, what would happen if you haved a german or france ship  ? They will ask billion dollars to intregate your own weapons to ther CMS.


A lot of times the issue with OEMs is not just monetary. They will flatly refuse due to political or intellectual property related reasons, which cannot be overcome by any cash offer. Take a look at how EAF despite having F16s and Rafales doesn’t yet have bvr missiles just because of security concerns of a neighbor!

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## Tank131

TheDarkKnight said:


> A lot of times the issue with OEMs is not just monetary. They will flatly refuse due to political or intellectual property related reasons, which cannot be overcome by any cash offer. Take a look at how EAF despite having F16s and Rafales doesn’t yet have bvr missiles just because of security concerns of a neighbor!


The notion of EAF not having BVR is not only not entirely true in the past, but it is definitely ot true since ~2014. EAF has had Sparrows (Aim-7M) for some time. These have an 85km range (albeit are old, unreliable and are SARH rather than active seekers). Additionally when EAF bought Rafale, they got MICA with it,so they have at least 60km range with those. I dont think they got Meteor though. They did get R-77 with Su-35 as well.

With respect to MILGEM this was a very good deal no only for the fact that is created a new frigate/corvette line (Baburs) but a second more advanced frigate line in Jinnah too and it further deepened Turkish/Pak alliance as well as deepening ties with Italians. It also clearly involved upgrading Pakistan's production capacity. That is what was most impressive. They laid down the ship and then launched it in 17 months. That is impressive construction speed for Pakistan considering Turkey itself took 14 months. Very happy with that speed.

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## TheDarkKnight

Tank131 said:


> The notion of EAF not having BVR is not only not entirely true in the past, but it is definitely ot true since ~2014. EAF has had Sparrows (Aim-7M) for some time. These have an 85km range (albeit are old, unreliable and are SARH rather than active seekers). Additionally when EAF bought Rafale, they got MICA with it,so they have at least 60km range with those. I dont think they got Meteor though. They did get R-77 with Su-35 as well.


Rafale with RBE2 radar but with a AAM of 60km only! This is a travesty. Same for f16s.
Now compare that with PAF F16s which came with cutting edge aim120c5 of that time in 2005 - it was just one version less than the latest and greatest c7 for USAF. These F16s and even the jf17s b2 (let alone j10s and block 3s) outgun EAF F16s and Rafales.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TheDarkKnight said:


> Rafale with RBE2 radar but with a AAM of 60km only! This is a travesty. Same for f16s.
> Now compare that with PAF F16s which came with cutting edge aim120c5 of that time in 2005 - it was just one version less than the latest and greatest c7 for USAF. These F16s and even the jf17s b2 (let alone j10s and block 3s) outgun EAF F16s and Rafales.


EAF and PAF aren't the same....

As for the corruption, the best Egyptian general <<<<< the worst Pak general....

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

You people are unnecessarily calling Egyptians in this thread.
It will become d#ick measuring contest thread in no time.

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## Oublious

TheDarkKnight said:


> A lot of times the issue with OEMs is not just monetary. They will flatly refuse due to political or intellectual property related reasons, which cannot be overcome by any cash offer. Take a look at how EAF despite having F16s and Rafales doesn’t yet have bvr missiles just because of security concerns of a neighbor!




This is something Turkey have experienced, if they not allow you for somekind reason you will not able put your desired weapon on that CMS. Or they will ask the software of the weapon to intregate it by them self and let you pay billions or millions. They will now how your weapon works, it is something giving your weapon away.



Tank131 said:


> The notion of EAF not having BVR is not only not entirely true in the past, but it is definitely ot true since ~2014. EAF has had Sparrows (Aim-7M) for some time. These have an 85km range (albeit are old, unreliable and are SARH rather than active seekers). Additionally when EAF bought Rafale, they got MICA with it,so they have at least 60km range with those. I dont think they got Meteor though. They did get R-77 with Su-35 as well.
> 
> With respect to MILGEM this was a very good deal no only for the fact that is created a new frigate/corvette line (Baburs) but a second more advanced frigate line in Jinnah too and it further deepened Turkish/Pak alliance as well as deepening ties with Italians. It also clearly involved upgrading Pakistan's production capacity. That is what was most impressive. They laid down the ship and then launched it in 17 months. That is impressive construction speed for Pakistan considering Turkey itself took 14 months. Very happy with that speed.




Why give the name of Egypt? It is not only Egypt i would named with out hesistate. IT is Marocco, KSA, Algerian and others to, if they have ESM they don't have EW. You can look to ther ships, it is really sensetive technology. And if they get it how good is it? Who cares about Egypt BVR story?

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## Oublious

Even the Turkish ship didn't have EW and ESM suite for a while....

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## dBSPL



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## CSAW

*PNS Badr MILGEM Highlights :*

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Its still unclear which anti ship missile will be used on Milgems.


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## waz

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Its still unclear which anti ship missile will be used on Milgems.



Harba more than likely but the Turks also have the Atmaca. So no issue.

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.,


Drone footage here would have made it much nicer to watch

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## CSAW

*POSSIBLY ARMED WITH FOLLOWING TEETH :*


















Overview: Babur 1B, Zarb and Harba Cruise Missiles


Since at least 2016, Pakistan has test-fired a number of new long-range anti-ship cruising missiles (ASCM), most notably the Zarb coastal/land-based ASCM, Harba dual-ASCM and land-attack cruise missil...




quwa.org













Pakistan test-fires indigenous anti-ship missile


Pakistan has announced a successful test of its indigenous anti-ship missile, which appears to be a variant of the Babur land-attack cruise missile family.




www.defensenews.com

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## dBSPL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529382910960275457

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## Super Falcon

Based on milgem Jinnah class corvetes also on Navy's pipeline

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## Abid123

Sulman Badshah said:


> they are not ancient .. we got them in 2007 and they can serve us beyond 2030
> They can be upgraded with better sensors
> although their hull have pretty much life left


Can we replace them with 4 type 052D beyond 2030? If we are in a better financial situation? If we had the money we would have replaced them with more capable frigates. Lets be honest. Mogami class of Japan looks stunning.


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## MIRauf

Abid123 said:


> Can we replace them with 4 type 052D beyond 2030? If we are in a better financial situation? If we had the money we would have replaced them with more capable frigates. Lets be honest. Mogami class of Japan looks stunning.
> 
> View attachment 849714


Why replace light Frigates with Destroyers ? PN should replace them with upgraded Jinnah Class when times come, however adding Type 052D as the Lead / flagship for each squadron does makes sense ( $ permitted off course. )

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## Super Falcon

Unmaned surface vehicle will be carried with milgem corvetes due to its Unmanned and can do conduct minesweeping surveillance near the ship

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## ziya

I am disapointed because no aselsan areas system

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## arslank03

ziya said:


> I am disapointed because no aselsan areas system


They get GIDS RIBAT for ESM.

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## Super Falcon

PN buying ulaq USV with these as support boats and few FNSS Amphibious vehicle for marines in future


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## arslank03

waz said:


> Harba more than likely but the Turks also have the Atmaca. So no issue.


Atmaca current block nowhere near as capable as Harbah, i myself was surprised when i saw the Harbah brochure. I had known of the guidance solutions but didnt believe it lol


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## ziya

arslank03 said:


> They get GIDS RIBAT for ESM.


ASelsan Ares 2NG is already an ESM system,my expectation was areas 2 that is electronic attack-jammer system.

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## arslank03

ziya said:


> ASelsan Ares 2NG is already an ESM system,my expectation was areas 2 that is electronic attack-jammer system.




No, ARES has always been ESM.


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## ziya

arslank03 said:


> No, ARES has always been ESM.


ares-ESM
areas-ECM
babür class will not have ECM system,that is clear…


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## arslank03

ziya said:


> ares-ESM
> areas-ECM
> babür class will not have ECM system,that is clear…




It is integrated into the Mast. This is a very expensive project, it is beyond likely they will


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## Tank131

ziya said:


> ares-ESM
> areas-ECM
> babür class will not have ECM system,that is clear…


I believe they Baburs will have GIDS Ribat ECM

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## monitor

Launch Ceremony of Warship No. 3 of the #Pakistan Navy’s Babur class of air defense and guided missile heavy corvettes, PNS Khaibar (F-282) will be held on 21 September 2022. 






credit : twitter

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563110506235576320

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## Tank131

These are heavier and better equipped than F-22P...never understood why they insist on referring to it as a corvette in PN.

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## waz

Tank131 said:


> Thesenare heavier and better equipped than F-22P...never understood why they insist on referring to it as a corvette in PN.



I've been thinking the same thing for a while.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> These are heavier and better equipped than F-22P...never understood why they insist on referring to it as a corvette in PN.


Hi,

It is good---creates confusion.

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## yasin_csoy

Third milgem class ship is ready to launch but they are looking for a suitable date for officials to attend.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577277709423476737

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## Tank131

Would love to get a look at what the VLS will actually look like


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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578695816818364417

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575425665234599937

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

monitor said:


> Launch Ceremony of Warship No. 3 of the #Pakistan Navy’s Babur class of air defense and guided missile heavy corvettes, PNS Khaibar (F-282) will be held on 21 September 2022.
> View attachment 872395
> 
> 
> credit : twitter





yasin_csoy said:


> Third milgem class ship is ready to launch but they are looking for a suitable date for officials to attend.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577277709423476737





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is good---creates confusion.





dBSPL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529382910960275457





ziya said:


> ASelsan Ares 2NG is already an ESM system,my expectation was areas 2 that is electronic attack-jammer system.

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## dBSPL

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


>


It will be the most powerful platform in the PN fleet.

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## Primus

dBSPL said:


> It will be the most powerful platform in the PN fleet.


Up until the induction of the Jinnah class frigate InshAllah

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## Tank131

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578695816818364417
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575425665234599937


Glad to hear amout the MILDAS System being able to quadpack. The good thing about CAMM-ER is it justs needs a VLS with enough room as the weapons come in prefabed cannisters (single pack and quadpack) and its fairly plug and play from what i got from MBDA sales director interview. That said Sylver A35 for Baburs is a no go. A35 is, as the name suggests 3.5m long unit and could not hold the 4.2m long CAMM-ER. The A43 and A50 would be required which can bost 4.3m long and 5m long missoles respectively. As we know, CAMM also comes in its own launch canisters (single pack), or alternately can be quad-packed into the SYLVER, ExLS and Mk41 VLS. So if Sylver are even available for Babur it would need to be A43 or A50 and both SHOULD allow quad packing. Otherwise, I hope work is underway to have MILDAS host CAMM-ER and allow for its quad packing. If there is any accuracy in the videos above, it looks like Babur will have 12 cell VLS, likely a derivative of GWS.35. If MILDAS is able to be certified for CAMM-ER, Babur could be refitt with 8 cell MILDAS and more than double the missile capacity.

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## ziya

It is not always to make more missiles on the ships are good,but may be dangeourus,you have to look at russian moskva incident.Babur class is a very good ship with the two stage defence against antiship missiles,It is also will give oppurtunity to build network center warfare.I wish Turkish navy gets babur class as well.


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## Tank131

ziya said:


> It is not always to make more missiles on the ships are good,but may be dangeourus,you have to look at russian moskva incident.Babur class is a very good ship with the two stage defence against antiship missiles,It is also will give oppurtunity to build network center warfare.I wish Turkish navy gets babur class as well.


Their plan is Istanbul class frigates which will likely be similar in size/functions to Jinnah (frankly i think Jinnah will likely be a modification of I-class rather than an actual i original/semi-original design). Both Jinnah and I-class are enlarged Ada/Milgems


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## ziya

Babür class and jinnah class will be a good base for network centeric warfare with the aim of advent sys,and it will go further with the MPA having advent/martı so this structure is more important than any gun and missile.Turkey is also working hard for multistatik sonar system,if the ships use same sonar structure,and this gives more oppurtunity to detect enemy subs.

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## ziya

yakamos 2020 sonar already bistatik and multistatik.Warships with bistatik/multistatik sonar sytems,one ship is on passif mode but the other one/two-tree is on aktif mode or two ship passif mode and one is active mode,so the on passive modes ship is not detected easily by enemy subs.If this concept is supported by surfaceships with electric motors,or with unmanned satellit ships it makes surfaces ships very silient ,and will be game changer


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586066749094473728


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## waz

ALBATROS NG | Maritime Superiority, FORCE PROTECTION | MBDA


ALBATROS NG Maritime Superiority, FORCE PROTECTION NAVAL SURFACE-TO-AIR | NEW GENERATION NAVAL BASED AIR DEFENCE SYSTEM | All-weather day and night air defence of host platform and protected assets beyond 40km



www.mbda-systems.com













Albatros NG naval air defence system detailed - EDR Magazine


By Luca Peruzzi Unveiled by MBDA on March 3rd, 2021 (click HERE to read the press release), the Albatros NG




www.edrmagazine.eu

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## Tank131

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586066749094473728


So with CAMM-ER /Albatross, remember the 45km+. The CAMM is 25km+ but it has been tested to be able to hit targets out to 60km. Id imagine camm-er has a real range of 75-90km.

Also, are we sure Tughrails have HQ-16B because only thing i have seen show that PN will have HQ-16A. Do we have any real confirmation that it will be the B version? I dont think even PLAN operates HQ-16B yet.


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## Scorpiooo

Any update when work will start on Jinnah class ?

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## huanghong

Tank131 said:


> So with CAMM-ER /Albatross, remember the 45km+. The CAMM is 25km+ but it has been tested to be able to hit targets out to 60km. Id imagine camm-er has a real range of 75-90km.
> 
> Also, are we sure Tughrails have HQ-16B because only thing i have seen show that PN will have HQ-16A. Do we have any real confirmation that it will be the B version? I dont think even PLAN operates HQ-16B yet.


The latest 054A operation of PLA should be HQ-16F, 160km range, and active and passive composite guidance. This is consistent with the radar description at the Zhuhai Air Show. AESA radar replaces MR90 with a search distance of 250km.

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## Tank131

huanghong said:


> The latest 054A operation of PLA should be HQ-16F, 160km range, and active and passive composite guidance. This is consistent with the radar description at the Zhuhai Air Show. AESA radar replaces MR90 with a search distance of 250km.


Will believe it when it happens. Right now PLAN is not even equipped with HQ-16B. And a jump from 70km to 160km in the same from factor is a little hard to believe in such a short span of time. So even if its a real thing (not convinced) it is probably a few years away from PLA and subsequently PLAN induction let alone being available to PN.

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## huanghong

Tank131 said:


> Will believe it when it happens. Right now PLAN is not even equipped with HQ-16B. And a jump from 70km to 160km in the same from factor is a little hard to believe in such a short span of time. So even if its a real thing (not convinced) it is probably a few years away from PLA and subsequently PLAN induction let alone being available to PN.


This is a very simple reason, the latest 054A has AESA guidance radar,
The display boards of hq-16a and ha-16b at Zhuhai Air Show never mentioned having AESA guidance radar,
So the only AESA guidance radar that can match the latest 054A is the HQ-16F.


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## huanghong

Tank131 said:


> Will believe it when it happens. Right now PLAN is not even equipped with HQ-16B. And a jump from 70km to 160km in the same from factor is a little hard to believe in such a short span of time. So even if its a real thing (not convinced) it is probably a few years away from PLA and subsequently PLAN induction let alone being available to PN.


As for the hq-16b, this is the signal used by the Army. This model appeared in the Army during the Zhurihe exercise in 2017.


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## LKJ86

huanghong said:


> As for the hq-16b, this is the signal used by the Army. This model appeared in the Army during the Zhurihe exercise in 2017.
> View attachment 893668


HQ-16A and HQ-16B are land-based variants.


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## huanghong

LKJ86 said:


> HQ-16A and HQ-16B are land-based variants.


Yes, the Navy uses the HQ-16, but it is said that the Navy has a Hongqi-16c similar to the HQ-16b with a range of 70km. But considering the 054A was using a 40km MR90 until the latest batch. I doubt it.
However, after the emergence of hq-16f, due to its active seeker, it is no longer limited by the irradiation distance of MR90. If you change missles for the old version of 054a, you only need to change the software to have a range of 160km.


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## Tank131

huanghong said:


> This is a very simple reason, the latest 054A has AESA guidance radar,
> The display boards of hq-16a and ha-16b at Zhuhai Air Show never mentioned having AESA guidance radar,
> So the only AESA guidance radar that can match the latest 054A is the HQ-16F.


What? I dont understand what you are saying... Are you imply that because the 054AP has an AESA radar it needs an AESA equipped missile? That is not how it works. The missiles can be guided by any FRC they are integrated with AESA or otherwise. While the SR2410C works as the multifunction (long range Air and surface detection/tracking radar and probably has targeting capabilities) the main surface to air FCR is the MR-90 Front Dome which tracks and provides updates for the SARH HQ-16A. EVEN if the targeting and tracking was done by SR2410C, the missile radar doesnt need to be AESA equipped. It needs a radar to provide it navigational updates via a 2 way datalink to get tonits moving target. Furthermore, IF the radar of the missile was an Active homing AESA, it would not need and AESA FCR to make it work either. It just needs a radar to tell it where to go and it will hunt the target on its own.


huanghong said:


> As for the hq-16b, this is the signal used by the Army. This model appeared in the Army during the Zhurihe exercise in 2017.
> View attachment 893668


I didnt say PLA didnt adopt tge HQ-16B. I said PLAN has not be equipped with it... Meaning as of yet, the HQ-16B or HHQ-16B (which i dont think is an actual destination) or thr LY-80NB or however you want to call it, has not yet been inducted to the People's Liberation Army Navy. That means no PLAN Type 054A has officially been refit with HQ-16B. SO If PLAN doesn't have it YET (not saying they won't in the future), then How would PN have it?

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## huanghong

Tank131 said:


> What? I dont understand what you are saying... Are you imply that because the 054AP has an AESA radar it needs an AESA equipped missile? That is not how it works. The missiles can be guided by any FRC they are integrated with AESA or otherwise. While the SR2410C works as the multifunction (long range Air and surface detection/tracking radar and probably has targeting capabilities) the main surface to air FCR is the MR-90 Front Dome which tracks and provides updates for the SARH HQ-16A. EVEN if the targeting and tracking was done by SR2410C, the missile radar doesnt need to be AESA equipped. It needs a radar to provide it navigational updates via a 2 way datalink to get tonits moving target. Furthermore, IF the radar of the missile was an Active homing AESA, it would not need and AESA FCR to make it work either. It just needs a radar to tell it where to go and it will hunt the target on its own.
> 
> I didnt say PLA didnt adopt tge HQ-16B. I said PLAN has not be equipped with it... Meaning as of yet, the HQ-16B or HHQ-16B (which i dont think is an actual destination) or thr LY-80NB or however you want to call it, has not yet been inducted to the People's Liberation Army Navy. That means no PLAN Type 054A has officially been refit with HQ-16B. SO If PLAN doesn't have it YET (not saying they won't in the future), then How would PN have it?


No, I mean the latest 054A why needs to be equipped with aesa guidance radar? Unless the missile used by the latest 054A needs to be equipped with aesa guidance radar to play its performance.


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## Tank131

huanghong said:


> No, I mean the latest 054A why needs to be equipped with aesa guidance radar? Unless the missile used by the latest 054A needs to be equipped with aesa guidance radar to play its performance.


It needs aesa for because it provides better and more reliable performance is harder to jam and has superior EW, ECM ECCM capabilities. It isnt necessarily a longer range. That has nothing to do with the weapons selection.


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## huanghong

Tank131 said:


> It needs aesa for because it provides better and more reliable performance is harder to jam and has superior EW, ECM ECCM capabilities. It isnt necessarily a longer range. That has nothing to do with the weapons selection.


Considering that the 382 search radar is retained, it is obvious that the fire control radar does not need to be replaced unless it is to exert the performance of the missile.
If it is for superior EW, ECM ECCM capabilities., then the 382 search radar should also be replaced by AESA's SR2410C.


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## syed_yusuf

Bhai , what is the range of Pakistan navy 54ap anti air missile


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## Princeps Senatus

syed_yusuf said:


> Bhai , what is the range of Pakistan navy 54ap anti air missile


40km


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## syed_yusuf

Princeps Senatus said:


> 40km


All other debate is just a debate then I guess


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## Tank131

syed_yusuf said:


> All other debate is just a debate then I guess


Correct. No-one needs to speculate about HQ-16B or HQ-16F until those are first adopted by PLAN. They aren't coming for PN until they are in use by PLAN first, so all other discussions about them are moot.

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## ziya

The most beatiful and effective version of milgem version

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595008510697373699

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## dBSPL

PN F-280 PNS BABUR
F-515 TCG İSTANBUL 
F-511 TCG HEYBELİADA

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## Bleek

A Turkish member should start a thread regarding the PKK issue and intervention in Syria, Iraq, etc so we can get regular updates

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## dBSPL

Bleek said:


> A Turkish member should start a thread regarding the PKK issue and intervention in Syria, Iraq, etc so we can get regular updates


Regular news flow will not be possible because, as soon as the thread is opened, it will be spammed and attacked by a few paid trolls and lifeless obsessives, and it will instantly go off-topic. Therefore, it would be better to follow developments on this event from other channels.

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## HRK

dBSPL said:


> Regular news flow will not be possible because, as soon as the thread is opened, it will be spammed and attacked by a few paid trolls and lifeless obsessives, and it will instantly go off-topic. Therefore, it would be better to follow developments on this event from other channels.


Solution to this problem is to open an information thread only, by this discussion on that thread would not be allowed & by this restriction all the trolling attempts will be met with moderation without going into right or wrong POV of any member participating in that thread

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595347086706630657

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596138633568071682

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## Edevelop



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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## ghazi52

/../././.







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596156986831560705

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## Tank131

Turkey Tests MILDAS

I think this will be very relevant to Babur's and more importantly Jinnah class. PN should target MILDAS as the VLS for Jinnahs. They should also plan on replacing the 16 cells of the GWS.35 type CAMM-ER launcher on Baburs with 8-12 cells of the MILDAS VLS as these will allow for quad-packing the CAMM-ER (if italy allows integration which i think should be doable). IF Jinnahs get 16 cells MILDAS you could carry 8 Siper (150km) and 32 CAMM-ER (probable 45-85km) missiles.

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## dBSPL

Tank131 said:


> Turkey Tests MILDAS
> 
> I think this will be very relevant to Babur's and more importantly Jinnah class. PN should target MILDAS as the VLS for Jinnahs. They should also plan on replacing the 16 cells of the GWS.35 type CAMM-ER launcher on Baburs with 8-12 cells of the MILDAS VLS as these will allow for quad-packing the CAMM-ER (if italy allows integration which i think should be doable). IF Jinnahs get 16 cells MILDAS you could carry 8 Siper (150km) and 32 CAMM-ER (probable 45-85km) missiles.


The use of ESSM-B1s as quadpacks was among the main requirements of the Navy in the MIDLAS project. It was also said by a source from the project that the naval version of SIPER could be quadpacked. A few days ago, one of the most reliable defense sources, Mr. Ibrahim Sünnetçi, confirmed this. In other words, the use of HISAR-RF and SIPER missile systems in dual and quad packs, may not in the first block productions, but definetly is among the main objectives of the project. SIPER-ABM to be produced in ABM class may not be included in this group. Because there are different targets in terms of altitude and flight profiles, the folding of the missile's wings may not be sufficient for multi-packing. However, in summary, we can say that MIDLAS is very similar to the MK41 in terms of interface and dimensions.

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## ghazi52

At Karachi ... KS & EW
PNS Badr ( 281 )

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## ziya

Defencey Turkey magazine.Jinnah class probably will use MBDA albatros,and its bigger than istif class,not slower than babur class

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## Tank131

ziya said:


> Defencey Turkey magazine.Jinnah class probably will use MBDA albatros,and its bigger than istif class,not slower than babur class


I think the bigger news in this the notion of upgrading F-22p with Albatross...ideally,if they can get albatross integrated to MILDAS an 8 cell MILDAS for F-22P would enable 32 CAMM-ER missiles. The radars and CMS would also need updating. My suspicion is such an upgrade would cost $150-200M/ship.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> I think the bigger news in this the notion of upgrading F-22p with Albatross...ideally,if they can get albatross integrated to MILDAS an 8 cell MILDAS for F-22P would enable 32 CAMM-ER missiles. The radars and CMS would also need updating. My suspicion is such an upgrade would cost $150-200M/ship.


It'll cost much less than that per ship. Probably around $75-100 M per ship at most.

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## CivilianSupremacy

Tank131 said:


> I think the bigger news in this the notion of upgrading F-22p with Albatross...ideally,if they can get albatross integrated to MILDAS an 8 cell MILDAS for F-22P would enable 32 CAMM-ER missiles. The radars and CMS would also need updating. My suspicion is such an upgrade would cost $150-200M/ship.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll cost much less than that per ship. Probably around $75-100 M per ship at most.



I think the VLS option will be only for Jinnah. However, I think for F22Ps, the PN most likely will go for external launcher. (Least expensive / easier integration option). 















ALBATROS | FORCE PROTECTION, Maritime Superiority | MBDA


ALBATROS is a well proven, all weather and highly ECM resistant naval system designed to counter aircraft, UAVs, helicopters at sea, as well as sea skimming and diving anti-ship missiles and PGMs.



www.mbda-systems.com

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## Tank131

CivilianSupremacy said:


> I think the VLS option will be only for Jinnah. However, I think for F22Ps, the PN most likely will go for external launcher. (Least expensive / easier integration option).
> 
> View attachment 907537
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALBATROS | FORCE PROTECTION, Maritime Superiority | MBDA
> 
> 
> ALBATROS is a well proven, all weather and highly ECM resistant naval system designed to counter aircraft, UAVs, helicopters at sea, as well as sea skimming and diving anti-ship missiles and PGMs.
> 
> 
> 
> www.mbda-systems.com


I think you are conflating Albatross and Albatross NG. Albatross is a legacy system based around Aspide 2000 (this is essentially the Sea/ship mounted version of SPADA 2000). The Albatross NG is based on CAMM-ER and is VLS based. I dont think it comes in box launcher form. That said, there is definitely room for an 8 cell VLS for something like MILDAS or a 12 cell GWS.35 where the current FM-90 sits. Some of the cell may need to protude up, but it is doable. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll cost much less than that per ship. Probably around $75-100 M per ship at most.


Well, NZ did a similar refit on their Anzacs, with similar systems (though they also did propulsion changes). Their upgrades were originally to cost $440M NZD ($280M usd) but eventually ballooned to $770M ($485M usd) for 2 ships. Without the propulsion changes, Italian/Turkish electronics instead of US, AND Turkish/Pakistani workforce, id imagine PN would still end up with over $150M spent per ship to make this happen

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> I think you are conflating Albatross and Albatross NG. Albatross is a legacy system based around Aspide 2000 (this is essentially the Sea/ship mounted version of SPADA 2000). The Albatross NG is based on CAMM-ER and is VLS based. I dont think it comes in box launcher form. That said, there is definitely room for an 8 cell VLS for something like MILDAS or a 12 cell GWS.35 where the current FM-90 sits. Some of the cell may need to protude up, but it is doable.
> 
> 
> Well, NZ did a similar refit on their Anzacs, with similar systems (though they also did propulsion changes). Their upgrades were originally to cost $440M NZD ($280M usd) but eventually ballooned to $770M ($485M usd) for 2 ships. Without the propulsion changes, Italian/Turkish electronics instead of US, AND Turkish/Pakistani workforce, id imagine PN would still end up with over $150M spent per ship to make this happen


Keep in mind that the way the West typically tracks procurement programs is by accounting for upfront and lifecycle costs. So, yeah, the lifecycle cost of upgrading the F-22P could be around $150M. However, the upfront will not be as high. There are other factors too, e.g., the fall in the value of the Euro vs the USD, lower labour costs in Pakistan, etc. It's an important distinction because in Pakistan, the maintenance and ops cost goes into the annual budget, while the procurement funds come separately. So, if the F-22P's lifecycle cost is about to go up by $150M due to an upgrade, that'll reflect in a bigger annual budget for the PN.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Keep in mind that the way the West typically tracks procurement programs is by accounting for upfront and lifecycle costs. So, yeah, the lifecycle cost of upgrading the F-22P could be around $150M. However, the upfront will not be as high. There are other factors too, e.g., the fall in the value of the Euro vs the USD, lower labour costs in Pakistan, etc. It's an important distinction because in Pakistan, the maintenance and ops cost goes into the annual budget, while the procurement funds come separately. So, if the F-22P's lifecycle cost is about to go up by $150M due to an upgrade, that'll reflect in a bigger annual budget for the PN.


All i know is that i am convinced that you and I have prayed some of these exact upgrades into existence,including CAMM-ER, MILGEM, and the supposed upgrade of F-22P

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> All i know is that i am convinced that you and I have prayed some of these exact upgrades into existence,including CAMM-ER, MILGEM, and the supposed upgrade of F-22P


You're slacking on the aircraft carrier.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're slacking on the aircraft carrier.


Like the Indian flat bed that carried Tejas at one point?


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## CivilianSupremacy

Tank131 said:


> I think you are conflating Albatross and Albatross NG. Albatross is a legacy system based around Aspide 2000 (this is essentially the Sea/ship mounted version of SPADA 2000). The Albatross NG is based on CAMM-ER and is VLS based. I dont think it comes in box launcher form. That said, there is definitely room for an 8 cell VLS for something like MILDAS or a 12 cell GWS.35 where the current FM-90 sits. Some of the cell may need to protude up, but it is doable.



The Aspide 2000 is upgraded version of Aspide. 
Here's the supplier more info/specs: https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/aspide-2000/

That's true its not as recent as the CAMM-ER. But I am hesitant to believe that PN would install a VLS / a major upgrade and spend that much on F-22Ps. I still believe the new VLS would be only for newer ships like Jinnah and maybe possible for Yarmooks batch II as well. 

For F-22Ps, I always thought PN may replace the FM-90 with 15 or 24 cell HHQ10 point defense. (Just like what PLAN did). If not that then the other option could be Albatross based external launcher as shown in the below link: 








ALBATROS | FORCE PROTECTION, Maritime Superiority | MBDA


ALBATROS is a well proven, all weather and highly ECM resistant naval system designed to counter aircraft, UAVs, helicopters at sea, as well as sea skimming and diving anti-ship missiles and PGMs.



www.mbda-systems.com





But we'll see. Ofcourse I would love to see the VLS in Zulfiqars if PN really take the daring step of major upgrade & able to approve good bucks $$ for it.


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## Tank131

CivilianSupremacy said:


> For F-22Ps, I always thought PN may replace the FM-90 with 15 or 24 cell HHQ10 point defense. (Just like what PLAN did). If not that then the other option could be Albatross based external launcher as shown in the below


This i agree with. I would think the logical, low cost upgrade is with FL-3000N (HHQ-10), BUT, if they really wanted to get the most out of F-22P, they would go with the VLS. Even if this upgrade (new radars, VLS/Albatross NG, and a new CMS, like the Genesis upgrade for the G-class frigates) costs. $150M per ship, it is still half the cost of a new similarly equipped frigate. Also the interview specifically mentioned Albatross for F-22P.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608869541358219265


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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608872053809238017


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