# Babur Cruise Missile - Database



## Arsalan

Inspired by JF-17 Information pool by ANTIBODY, this is my effort to compile all available useful data on Pakistan's LACM Babur.
This is not for debate and arguments but an effort to concise information under one thread. any information related to missile, of the systems that it works on, such as the engine, the design characteristics, guidance systems etc is welcomed.

A cruise missile is a guided missile able to carry heavy warhead payload to long distances (Beyond the reach of stand-off bombs). Usually powered by a jet engine, these are able to fly at non-ballistic trajectory, under the radar range and able to carry out a pin point strike of targets.

*Babur Cruise Missile*
In August 2005 Pakistan carried out test of its first cruise missile, named Babur (Hatf VII). Babur is the first ever cruise missile, designed and developed by Pakistani scientist mainly from NESCOM and is able to carry around 450 Kg conventional or nuclear (10 to 30kT) payloads. The first test was of 500 Km range from but a newer version was available in 2007 with an extended range of 700Km. The missile was launched from a land based transporter erector launcher (TEL) and now a multi tube launcher is also available.






The Babur is described as a subsonic, low-level terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance system and a high degree of maneuverability. The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system. It is a highly effective and trustworthy weapon due to its extraordinary characteristics.

With the capability of designing and developing Babur cruise missile Pakistan has joined an exclusive group of ten countries that operate cruise missiles, and an even more exclusive group of countries that can develop and manufacture them.

*Design:*
Babur Missile has a tubular shaped fuselage with a pair of folded wings attached to the middle section and Tail assembly at the rear along with the propulsion system. It is propelled by a Turbo fan engine and has a maximum speed of approximately 880 Km/h (high sub-sonic speed). The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground. After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. The air inlet also pops out after launch.

The missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.

The missile has a high degree of maneuverability and terrain hugging capability, allowing it to "hug" the terrain. Terrain hugging ability helps the missile avoid enemy radar detection by utilizing "terrain masking", giving Babur the capability to penetrate enemy air defense systems undetected and survive until reaching the target. The design is also said to possess stealth features making it difficult for enemy radar to detect and track the missile. Since RAM paint coating is not known to exist with Pakistan Defense forces, it may be assumed that the stealth features refer to use of composites in main fuselage reducing the radar signature. Moreover most of this Stealth Capability is attributed to the low level terrain hugging flight parameter. The capabilities can be matched to American forces Tomahawk Missiles.

*Guidance:*
The Babur's guidance system uses a combination of inertial navigation systems, terrain contour matching (TERCOM), Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) and GPS satellite guidance

It is steered by an inertial navigation system (INS). INS measures every movement of the missile and every change of speed, constantly calculating the missiles position. It enables the missile to know where it is compared to its launch position all the time, enabling the mission computer to steer the missile to the designated target.




The basic components of an inertial guidance system are gyroscopes, accelerometers, and a computer. The gyroscopes provide fixed reference directions or turning rate measurements, and accelerometers measure changes in the velocity of the system. The computer processes information on changes in direction and acceleration and feeds its results to the vehicles navigation system.




Babur is also equipped with Terrain Contour Matching or TERCOM system to further increase the accuracy. TERCOM is an automated navigation system used primarily by an unmanned aerial vehicle such as a long-range cruise missile. The system uses a predefined contour map of the flight path which acts as a comparison master image.









The missile is equipped with a sophisticated radar altimeter which constantly reads the terrain it is crossing and compares the readings to the master image. When deviations are detected, the missile's guidance system makes the necessary corrections to its flight path. This makes extremely accurate navigation and collision avoidance possible. The high degree of accuracy possible in terms of exact altitude above all terrain profiles allows TERCOM-equipped missiles to maintain low altitude flight paths while avoiding obstacles. This ground hugging ability confounds enemy ground radar systems
The missile also has a GPS guidance system.

*Launch Platform:*
Babur was initially test fired from a single missile TEL but later on multiple tube launch system. The current launch platform is mobile three tube assembly mounted on truck. This motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle. The TEL has a length of 13.36 meters, width of 3.02 meters, maximum road speed of 55kph, unrefueled range of 650km, and is powered by a 600hp Deutsch diesel engine with all four axles driven. There is a separate 10kW electrical generator to power the missiles pre-launch operations and two hydraulic pumps to raise the missile canisters to their launch positions before launch. The TEL is supported by four hydraulic jacks during the missile launch.





The missiles are transported on vehicle, carrying four missiles at a time. This is not a launch platform but just a transport vehicle.





*History and current Status:*
Pakistan have publicly tested the Babur missile 7 times since its existence was announced

*August 12, 2005:* Pakistan first time successfully test fired Babur cruise missile with a range of 500 km
*March 22, 2007:* upgraded version with extended range of 700 Km was test fired
*July 26, 2007:* Test firing of same version
*December 11, 2007:* Test firing of same version
*May 6, 2009:* Test firing of same version
*October 28, 2011:* First test firing from Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle
*June 06, 2012:* Latest test, validating the Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle

The missile is in production with and is reportedly equipping the 23rd and 26th missile group of PA strategic force.

*Future:*
It is reported that Pakistan is also working on more advanced variants of the missile with the range extended to 1000 km.
Also a sea launched variant is under development and the French made Agosta submarines and/or the PN probable future QINQ submarines will carry this missile to give Pakistan a second strike capability.

*Specs:
Designation:* Land Attack Cruise Missile, Medium Range Sub-Sonic Cruise missile
*Status:* Operational
*Length:* 7.2 meter (with booster)
*Diameter:* 0.52 meters
*Wing Span: * 2.67 meter
*Weight:* 1500 Kg
*Warhead: * 450Kg conventional, 10 to 35 kT nuclear
*Speed:* 880Km/hr.
*Propulsion: * Turbo Fan engine
*Guidance:* GPS, INS, TERCOM, DSMAC

*Reference:*
_Online defence security magazine industry military technology news exhibition world land forces*-*Army Recognition_
_Army Technology_
_Extrusion Deposition Systems | Emerging Technologies | Extrusion Coating | Automated Optical Inspection Systems| nTact_
_www.warfare.ru_
_Pakistan Defence_
_Military Asia_
*Written and Compiled by Arsalan Aslam

Babur Specs Chart {Edited by AERONAUT}

Babur - Transportable Land Attack Cruise Missile System*

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## farhan_9909

any info about the engine?
where was it developed


can somebody post the margalla electronics contribution in the babur cruise missile

thanks

good thread arsalan bhai


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## Arsalan

farhan_9909 said:


> any info about the engine?
> where was it developed
> 
> 
> can somebody post the margalla electronics contribution in the babur cruise missile
> 
> thanks
> 
> good thread arsalan bhai



Thanks Dear,
Margalla Electronics is subsidiary of NESCOM and one of the main electronic parts and technology provider to NESCOM, KRL, SUPARCO etc.

it is known to have contributed to electronics of Babur Cruise missile, the INS perhaps. however, what ever they have developed will come under the name of NESCOM generally so that is not highlighted.

for Engine, nothing is available official. however, it is said that the engine was developed with some assistance from China who reverse engineered a Russian Turbo Fab engine for there C-602 but NOTHING is clear and/or confirmed.

as most of Pakistan defense projects, this system, one of our prime defense equipment is kept under strict secrecy and not much is made available to public. 

i hope someone can shed some more light on this here.

Regards!

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## Zarvan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Inspired by JF-17 Information pool by ANTIBODY, this is my effort to compile all available useful data on Pakistan's LACM Babur.
> This is not for debate and arguments but an effort to concise information under one thread. any information related to missile, of the systems that it works on, such as the engine, the design characteristics, guidance systems etc is welcomed.
> 
> 
> *Written and Compiled by Arsalan Aslam*


Pakistan needs to now focus on developing new missiles with longer range and much faster speeds because countries are developing anti missile systems and missiles and to counter than we need increase both range and speed of our missiles and we need Babur or something like Babur for Our Naval use to both for Frigates and Submarines really very soon because our enemies are growing with much faster speed than our Armed Forces


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## Bratva

We forgot the tomahawk contribution which was recovered from Baluchistan unscathed. DSMAC and TERCOM combined is not even found in chinese missiles, Correct me if i'm wrong. 

I request Arsalan to make this thread generic by including Air launched, ground launched and in future sea launched cruise missile of Pakistan

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## Bratva

History and current Status:
Pakistan have publicly tested the Babur missile 7 times since its existence was announced

August 12, 2005: Pakistan first time successfully test fired Babur cruise missile with a range of 500 km

*March 22, 2007: upgraded version with extended range of 700 Km was test fired*- In this second test, DSMAC was introduced in Babur along with TERCOM. So we can assume DSMAC plus more range was main feature of this test

July 26, 2007: Test firing of same version

December 11, 2007: Test firing of same version

May 6, 2009: Test firing of same version

October 28, 2011: First test firing from Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle

*June 06, 2012: Latest test, validating the Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle*--

In this test, CEP and the height at which missile flew was revealed. 2 meter(6 feet) CEP and at height of 50 Meter. Main feature of test was, GPS was not used as guidance. So if GPS is used, CEP will become <1M

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## Windjammer

*The evolution of Babur Cruise Missile has been very progressive indeed.*

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## Arsalan

Dear Wind Jammer, just for confirmation, this




is not a launch vehicle rather a missile carrier and transport vehicle. this is also based on same motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) that is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle.


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## Malik Usman

I want to ask very important question about Curise Missile's capability......."*Terrain Hugging*" When we talk about this...is that mean.

That target and flying path is already feeded in the missile's memory and it knows from where to avoid hurdles............???? If it is already feeded then how it will work in Desert Terrain coz in Desert not not remain the same due to winds it change the shape.....i am saying this coz i heard in IRAQ war mostly American Tom Hawks were failed due to Desert Terrain.

Or it is just fired even for targets not known before and missile itself find the way with terrain hugging.????


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## Arsalan

mafiya said:


> We forgot the tomahawk contribution which was recovered from Baluchistan unscathed. DSMAC and TERCOM combined is not even found in chinese missiles, Correct me if i'm wrong.
> 
> I request Arsalan to make this thread generic by including Air launched, ground launched and in future sea launched cruise missile of Pakistan



the Tomahawk contribution is not filed with proofs but this is a known fact that some US missile did fell in Pakistani space (6 i remember) and were recovered by Pakistan Army but when returned to US. this is from where the controversy start as some sources claim that all missiles were not returned and some were kept for study, a study that might well have formed the base of Babur missile. the design and the guidance characteristics seem to be the same. Babur do resembles Tomahawk in look as well. So there is a possibility that we might have got some useful information from those missile as well but this is also true that NESCOM and its subsidiaries have invested both time and money heavily in this product and own most of the research work done for babur!

regards!

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## Last Hope

Babur GLCM has faced many changes over it's timeline. The changes included the launch, electronics and engine.
If you notice, the change in launch of Babur was first changed to vertical launch and now multi-tube launch which is actually test for naval version of Babur cruise missile. 

The myth is actually true and Pakistan is inching towards development of naval cruise missile. All these tests are proof of the development program has gained pace and has positive success.

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## [--Leo--]

Babur Cruise Missile Pakistan - YouTube


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## killerx

whay not sa stealth version and long range like 1500 km aor 2000 km and F22P should have the capablity to launch 1000km babur cruise missile

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## Last Hope

Malik Usman said:


> I want to ask very important question about Curise Missile's capability......."*Terrain Hugging*" When we talk about this...is that mean.
> 
> That target and flying path is already feeded in the missile's memory and it knows from where to avoid hurdles............???? If it is already feeded then how it will work in Desert Terrain coz in Desert not not remain the same due to winds it change the shape.....i am saying this coz i heard in IRAQ war mostly American Tom Hawks were failed due to Desert Terrain.
> 
> Or it is just fired even for targets not known before and missile itself find the way with terrain hugging.????



Babur is guided with sophisticated systems which form a image of the terrain in the missile and guides it accordingly.



killerx said:


> whay not sa stealth version and long range like 1500 km aor 2000 km and F22P should have the capablity to launch 1000km babur cruise missile



Babur is stealth missile and the range is being developed. And sooner or latter a longer-range Babur would be integrated to be launched from frigates.

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## Windjammer

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Dear Wind Jammer, just for confirmation, this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is not a launch vehicle rather a missile carrier and transport vehicle. this is also based on same motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) that is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle.


I am well aware of that dear, but from what i understand, it was this transporter profile which led to the multi tube launch vehicle project.

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## Arsalan

Windjammer said:


> I am well aware of that dear, but from what i understand, it was this transporter profile which led to the multi tube launch vehicle project.



Yes most probably. the base machine is same so you may be quite right sir!


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## Arsalan

Malik Usman said:


> I want to ask very important question about Curise Missile's capability......."*Terrain Hugging*" When we talk about this...is that mean.
> 
> That target and flying path is already feeded in the missile's memory and it knows from where to avoid hurdles............???? If it is already feeded then how it will work in Desert Terrain coz in Desert not not remain the same due to winds it change the shape.....i am saying this coz i heard in IRAQ war mostly American Tom Hawks were failed due to Desert Terrain.
> 
> Or it is just fired even for targets not known before and missile itself find the way with terrain hugging.????



Yes, you are quite right about what Terrain Hugging is. In terrain contour matching (TERCOM), an image of the pre-defined path is fed to the missile and the missile, during its flight keep on matching the earth contour it is flying over using its on board altimeter radar and keep matching it with the pre-defined path image and if any change is found, the mission computer onboard missile takes the required steps to correct its path.
Like every system, it have its pros and cons, the disadvantage are that a pre-defined path is to be selected and fed to the system and that may cause problems in examples as the one quote by you, the ever changing contour of desert. The advantage is that it enables the missile to fly real close to ground, hugging the ground ups and downs and avoiding obstacles. This very low fly path make it difficult to be be seen on ground radars, thus, is a mean of enemy penetration and deep stealthy strikes.

*In order to over rule the disadvantage as you have pointed, missiles use multiple guaidance systems eg In this case (Babur) TERCOM, INS and GPS* 

here is a map of typical cruise missile mission profile (TOMAHAWK IN THIS EXAMPLE) and that might help better understanding











Regards!

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## Safriz

Malik Usman said:


> I want to ask very important question about Curise Missile's capability......."*Terrain Hugging*" When we talk about this...is that mean.
> 
> That target and flying path is already feeded in the missile's memory and it knows from where to avoid hurdles............???? If it is already feeded then how it will work in Desert Terrain coz in Desert not not remain the same due to winds it change the shape.....i am saying this coz i heard in IRAQ war mostly American Tom Hawks were failed due to Desert Terrain.
> 
> Or it is just fired even for targets not known before and missile itself find the way with terrain hugging.????



TERCOM in a missile is simply an altitude comparison system..The missile is fed with RADAR maps of the terrain it will fly upon and the maps aren't that detailed,the most important info is the elevation change of the terrain during flight...So if the missile has to pass above a sand dune,it is pre fed and the missile will raise its altitude before the dune,and then will dip down..hence terrain hugging...The missile has a downward looking radar for that purpose which continuously scans the ground below and compares it with stored maps,again it compares altitude....ground rises,the missile rises,ground dips the missile dips,and it can be done in deserts equally good as in any other terrain.

GPS is a general term used for all satellite based navigation systems..As accurate GPS may be,but its strings are in someone else's hands and the whole system can be switched off on the flick of a switch in Schriever Air Force Base Colorado..But then again Pakistan and surrounding area is also covered by GLONASS and Chinese Beidou Satellite Navigation systems and a cross referencing of position between the three independent systems can give a greater and reliable accuracy..
Whether NESCOM is looking into this probability? I know not...

But all Satellite Navigation systems have a much lesser accuracy in Z axis...The altitude information derived from any satellite based navigation system is 5 times less accurate than Lat-Long or x,y info derived from it.
So if at any given moment the 2D position has an error of 10 meters the 3D position will have an error of 50 meters. 
Thats where TERCOM becomes even more significant than just a back up or secondary system..It gives a continuous,reliable and greater accuracy in the 3rd dimension...

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## [--Leo--]

RGM/UGM-109B Tomahawk Anti Ship Missile (TASM) - radar guided anti-shipping variant.

can babur be anti-ship missile?in some other block


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## regular

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Dear Wind Jammer, just for confirmation, this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is not a launch vehicle rather a missile carrier and transport vehicle. this is also based on same motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) that is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle.


This is infact a transporter as well as LAUNCH vehicle cuz it has the complete control and guidance system installed in it .So don't think that this is just a transport vehicle..........


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## killerx

it can hit ships and the most ati ship missiles are short range cruse type


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## farhan_9909

killerx said:


> it can hit ships and the most ati ship missiles are short range cruse type


 
no sir it cant

because the guidance would have to be changed
from INS/TERCOM to INS/active radar guidance
would have to develop a
miniaturized slotted planar array all by itself, to fit
inside the nose of babur

beside this in sea with 800km speed would be a very easy target for SAM

for anti ship role you need a supersonic cruise missile
atleast in terminal stage

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## SQ8

Babur is truly a hybrid missile, As it is based on the US tomahawk but uses a Chinese Mini-Turbojet for power.
Its electronics have been designed in-house using electronic components from China, Europe and the United states.
However, most of the guidance electronics are based on COTS components or rather dual use tech.

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## [--Leo--]

farhan_9909 said:


> no sir it cant
> 
> because the guidance would have to be changed
> from INS/TERCOM to INS/active radar guidance
> would have to develop a
> miniaturized slotted planar array all by itself, to fit
> inside the nose of babur
> 
> beside this in sea with 800km speed would be a very easy target for SAM
> 
> for anti ship role you need a supersonic cruise missile
> atleast in terminal stage



sir i disagree

C-802 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Harpoon (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

C-802 and many cruise missile as anti-ship are at sub-sonic speed

Naval Strike Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as i see it many cruise missile can do anti-ship


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## Peaceful Civilian

[--Leo--];3025479 said:


> sir i disagree
> 
> C-802 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Harpoon (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> C-802 and many cruise missile as anti-ship are at sub-sonic speed
> 
> Naval Strike Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And as i see it many cruise missile can do anti-ship


And U.S.A and Royal navy (UK) are still using Tomahawk blockIV for the navy which is also subsonic. (880 km/h).


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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Babur is truly a hybrid missile, As it is based on the US tomahawk but uses a Chinese Mini-Turbojet for power.
> Its electronics have been designed in-house using electronic components from China, Europe and the United states.
> However, most of the guidance electronics are based on COTS components or rather dual use tech.



Hi,
Whats COTS?
the only cots i know of is this 










[--Leo--];3025479 said:


> sir i disagree
> 
> C-802 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Harpoon (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> C-802 and many cruise missile as anti-ship are at sub-sonic speed
> 
> Naval Strike Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And as i see it many cruise missile can do anti-ship



These are all sub sonic missiles but the terminal phase is always supersonic when the missile rises and then comes down at high speed both to gain kinetic energy and avoid anti missile systems.


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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> Hi,
> Whats COTS?
> the only cots i know of is this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are all sub sonic missiles but the terminal phase is always supersonic when the missile rises and then comes down at high speed both to gain kinetic energy and avoid anti missile systems.



*Commercially off the shelf. Just like the cots pic u posted, you cant make this COT in house so go to market to purchase the fully built cot. Likewise, electronic components which can not bhe made are buyed from open market

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## mdcp

What is the success rate as american used cruise missile to attack afghanistan in late 90's and more than half of them fell in pakistan


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## laiqs@mi

Tomahawk Cruise Missile - YouTube

in this video at 1.47 to 1:50 tomahawk missile drops i think cluster bombs . . . 
i want to know if same feature is available in babur or not.


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## IHK_PK

What is the difference in the engine of both ALCM RAAD and BABUR missile.... any body pls.


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## Safriz

There are many private companies who sell Synthetic Aperture Radar imagery of Different regions of the world and no wonder if NESCOM has got detailed Radar imagery of all the terrain inside Pakistan,India and Afghanistan,the three countries PA is interested in any Defense related maters...
But obviously for utmost accuracy Pakistan will need own SAR satellite...
SUPARCO has given 2014 for launching SAR satellite,we can expect Pakistani cruise missiles to "Clip treetops" after that.


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## Arsalan

laiqs@mi said:


> in this video at 1.47 to 1:50 tomahawk missile drops i think cluster bombs . . .
> i want to know if same feature is available in babur or not.



this is the BGM-109*D* variat, that is BGM-109D Tomahawk Land Attack Missile - Dispenser (TLAM-D) with sub-munitions.





The sub-munition dispensing TLAM-D was used in Desert Storm, and subsequently, for roles where the sub-munition payloads were more useful than the unitary warhead.
this TLAM-D missile carries 166 sub-munitions in 24 canisters; 22 canisters of seven each, and two canisters of six each to conform to the dimensions of the airframe. 
The missile can perform up to five separate target segments which enables it to attack multiple targets so it seems it can act as a bomber plane. *However in order to achieve a sufficient density of coverage typically all 24 canisters are dispensed sequentially from back to front. thus, this is essentially a missile carrying a Cluster Bomb*

*watch 0.34 onwards for Tomahawk attack with sub-munitions*





Babur cruise missile can carry cluster bombs but whether it can attack multiple targets with these sub-munitions is not know and i don't think this will be the case. but then again, the tomahawk even capable to do this, still don't in order to ensure kill and attack density, all sub-munitions are dropped on one target!

regards!

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## Safriz

in 2011 a 7 member delegation of Pakistan strategic command (whatever that may be) visited Chinese beidou satellite navigation command and inked agreements with them. The news was never reported on Pakistani media but was spotted on Chinese beidou official website and posted on PDF by a Chinese member.
So we can now say that Pakistan has access to military grade satellite navigation signals via beidou...
And we can now be sure about the claims Pakistan makes about missile accuracy.

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## Safriz

www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defen...peration-future-beidou-navigation-system.html

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## Last Hope

Safriz said:


> in 2011 a 7 member deligation of pakistan steategic command (whatever that may be) visited chinese beidou satellite navigation command and inked agreements with them. The news was never reported on pakistani media nut was spotted on chinese beidou official website and posted on PDF by a chinese member.
> So we can now say that pakistan has access to military grade satellite navigation signals via beidou...
> And we can now be sure about the claims pakistan makes about missile accuracy.



It is said that Babur would be guided via Satellite. It can well be this program.


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## Safriz

Last Hope said:


> It is said that Babur would be guided via Satellite. It can well be this program.


 
We can be 99% sure that the satellite navigation system used in Babur is not American gps.
Theirs is totally controlled by their military from an airbase in colorado and they induce errors during conflict...only their military grade gps signal is all time accurate,but pakistan has no access to that as its coded...
Pakistan has officially endorsed access to beidou's military grade signal and that means one added extra that isnt available with GLONASS or GPS.
Beidou allows its liscenced users to have a piece of hardware. A beidou command station. That allows two way communication with beidou using vehicle..
So babur can update the command station about its actual position during flight.. And operstor can ask babur to change flight path or target by sending babur new coordinates or new waypoints.

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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> We can be 99% sure that the satellite navigation system used in Babur is not American gps.
> Theirs is totally controlled by their military from an airbase in colorado and they induce errors during conflict...only their military grade gps signal is all time accurate,but pakistan has no access to that as its coded...
> Pakistan has officially endorsed access to beidou's military grade signal and that means one added extra that isnt available with GLONASS or GPS.
> Beidou allows its liscenced users to have a piece of hardware. A beidou command station. That allows two way communication with beidou using vehicle..
> So babur can update the command station about its actual position during flight.. And operstor can ask babur to change flight path or target by sending babur new coordinates or new waypoints.



that's why they revealed this

*



A major additional feature of todays test was the effective employment of the National Command Authoritys fully automated Strategic Command and Control Support System (SCCSS). It has enabled robust Command and Control capability of all strategic assets with round the clock situational awareness in a digitized network centric environment to decision makers at National Command Centre (NCC). The system has the added capability of real time remote monitoring of missile flight path.

Click to expand...

*
if real time flight path monitoring is possible than sending new coordinates to cruise missiles is also possible.


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> that's why they revealed this
> 
> 
> 
> if real time flight path monitoring is possible than sending new coordinates to cruise missiles is also possible.


 
The real time flight path monitoring is possible through beidou,as babur will send coordinates to commanders and commanders will know if the missile has actually hit the target or has been intercepted.
Babur launcher being multitube...commanders can launch a second or third missile through a different route...and will know if the missiles reach target or not..


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## Last Hope

Safriz said:


> The real time flight path monitoring is possible through beidou,as babur will send coordinates to commanders and commanders will know if the missile has actually hit the target or has been intercepted.
> Babur launcher being multitube...commanders can launch a second or third missile through a different route...and will know if the missiles reach target or not..



Babur is stealth and terrain-hugging missile. It is least likely to be intercepted. 
And the multi-tube launch is progress for Navy.


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## Safriz

Last Hope said:


> Babur is stealth and terrain-hugging missile. It is least likely to be intercepted.
> And the multi-tube launch is progress for Navy.


 
There can be multiple uses of same technology.
The main point was that commanders have the capability to know exactly where the missile ended up...on target or elsewhere.


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## Safriz

and i cannot understand how babur is stealth?
Is it the material? Some special coating? The design?


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## Arsalan

Safriz said:


> and i cannot understand how babur is stealth?
> Is it the material? Some special coating? The design?



the stealth is mainly attributed to its low terrain hugging flight path, enabling it to fly under the range of ground radars and some what to the composite fuselage. it do not have radar absorbent paint coatings as in the fifth generation fighter like F-22 or F-35

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## Safriz

The term "Cruise missile" is used for any self propelled missile which does not follow a path governed by gravity,such as a parabola followed by ballistic missiles..and can maintain a levelled flight under own power...
Being a cruise missile does not mean that the missile follows a low altitude flight or terrain hugging flight path..
A supersonic missile will have to rise at higher altitudes to maintain supersonic flight as air is dense at lower altitudes and the missile will consume far too much fuel and lessen its range...For that reason a supersonic missile almost always loses its stealth.
Then there is the problem of Doppler shift...Downward looking Radars use Doppler shift to differentiate between stationary ground reflections and reflections from a target moving a t high speed,the cruise missile..
A super sonic missile will show a huge massive Doppler shift due to its speed..The Doppler shift of a subsonic missile will be far less,making it more difficult to detect and track.

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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> if real time flight path monitoring is possible than sending new coordinates to cruise missiles is also possible.



yes, new coordinates can be sent...but the new PATH i.e. the new contour map has to be there in the missile's mission computer too. Which is very difficult IMO, because Pakistan does not have the ability to develop that much contour maps of military grade.
I think Babur and Ra'ad will follow the same pre-planned route.

Current Pakistani Nuclear warfare Strategy is to develop the maximum types of delivery systems, giving rise to a diverse and large nuclear arsenal, which would be very difficult for India to stop in a nuclear war.

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## Arsalan

AhaseebA said:


> yes, new coordinates can be sent...but the new PATH i.e. the new contour map has to be there in the missile's mission computer too. Which is very difficult IMO, because Pakistan does not have the ability to develop that much contour maps of military grade.
> I think Babur and Ra'ad will follow the same pre-planned route.
> 
> Current Pakistani Nuclear warfare Strategy is to develop the maximum types of delivery systems, giving rise to a diverse and large nuclear arsenal, which would be very difficult for India to stop in a nuclear war.



SUPARCO has give 2014 as the planned launch of first of PAKISTAN'S REMOTE SENSING SATELLITE SYSTEM (PRSSS) with synthetic aperture radar (SAR) that will give us military grade maps of the region. you can visit below thread for more details and map resolution etc
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...an-remote-sensing-satellite-system-prsss.html

Also as of now, it seems Pakistan and China have some sort of understanding on use of Chinese Space facilities and there maps.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ur-cruise-missile-database-3.html#post3043863

regards!

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## Safriz

Pakistan will have their own imaging satellite soon..
But lets not make any mistakes,Pakistan has full access to Chinese and commercially available SAR satellites and has enough data already to generate useful TERCOM maps for Cruise missiles.
This institution in Rawat near Islamabad is doing this as we speak,and there is one more similar station near Gawadar or Karachi...
Unfortunately or Fortunately none of these Satellite Monitoring stations are advertised and are kept secret.
Satellite Data Acquisition Zone

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## Safriz

For TERCOM Babur needs something called ORTHOIMAGE
and SUPARCO already has extensive ORTHOIMAGE databse of the region.

Special Data Products

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## Peaceful Civilian

Is this possible to guide/control the cruise missile from AWACS?


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## gambit

> Safriz said:
> 
> 
> 
> and i cannot understand how babur is stealth?
> Is it the material? Some special coating? The design?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arsalanaslam123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the stealth is mainly attributed to its low terrain hugging flight path, enabling it to fly under the range of ground radars and some what to the composite fuselage. it do not have radar absorbent paint coatings as in the fifth generation fighter like F-22 or F-35
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Whooooppsss...

Two things:

- Radar avoidance
- Low radar observability

Radar avoidance is about finding an active radar transmission, which may include a network of discrete stations, and avoid being in EM contact with said transmission. Terrain following is about being *BELOW* the radar horizon of said transmission. If there is a network, navigation through the inevitable gaps in said network is radar avoidance.

Low radar observability, aka 'stealth', is about being in actual EM contact of a transmission but the body somehow reflects so low of an EM response that the seeking radar dismiss such a low level signal as insignificant. So 'stealth' is actually a double threat in that the 'stealth' aircraft can have absolutely no EM response at all by flying below the radar horizon and if the situation compelled it to be in EM contact with a radar transmission its EM response will be so low that it will be discarded by the seeking radar.

The distinction is important.

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## Last Hope

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Is this possible to guide/control the cruise missile from AWACS?


It maybe possible if you produce a missile that could be remotely controlled and integrate it with an AWACS or AEW&C. But you need to make some modifications in the plane too.


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## gambit

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Is this possible to guide/control the cruise missile from AWACS?


Yes, but not necessary. A cruise missile is essentially an aircraft. If it have such sophistication like terrain following (TF) then its avionics are sophisticated enough to be guided, not controlled. There is a difference. In principle, it is no different than if the AWACS issued a verbal instruction to a live pilot in another aircraft and trust the pilot to obey.

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## Bratva

gambit said:


> Yes, but not necessary. A cruise missile is essentially an aircraft. If it have such sophistication like terrain following (TF) then its avionics are sophisticated enough to be guided, not controlled. There is a difference. In principle, it is no different than if the AWACS issued a verbal instruction to a live pilot in another aircraft and trust the pilot to obey.




Gambit, please kindly explain, Why Tomahawk failed in a desert terrain and why it's a success in a terrain where there is hills, forests


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## gambit

mafiya said:


> Gambit, please kindly explain, Why Tomahawk failed in a desert terrain and why it's a success in a terrain where there is hills, forests


Do you have data that shows a consistent failure in desert terrain? There is not enough information here. Sorry.


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## Bratva

gambit said:


> Do you have data that shows a consistent failure in desert terrain? There is not enough information here. Sorry.



Ok let me rephrase my question. Why TERCOM face difficulty in recognizing Flat surfaces like of desert. First Iraq War showed that problem.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Self delete


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## gambit

mafiya said:


> Ok let me rephrase my question. Why TERCOM face difficulty in recognizing Flat surfaces like of desert. First Iraq War showed that problem.


Where is your data? In God We Trust, Everyone Else Please Bring Your Data. Anecdotes do not count. You must show a consistent and persistent flow of when the system encounter 'desert' terrain it failed therefore the cruise missile crashed.

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## The SC

The desert is ever changing and the movement of sand dunes is unpredictable, it is like the sea, so it needs a specific cruise missile, and this applies to any other weapon system as a matter of fact.


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## gambit

The SC said:


> The desert is ever changing and the movement of sand dunes is unpredictable, it is like the sea, so it needs a specific cruise missile, and this applies to any other weapon system as a matter of fact.


Stop making up things that you do not understand. Sand dunes movements are nowhere as *RAPIDLY* mobile as sea states. It does not 'need' a specific type of cruise missile. Yours is a made up 'fact'.

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## Desert Fox

mafiya said:


> Ok let me rephrase my question. Why TERCOM face difficulty in recognizing Flat surfaces like of desert. First Iraq War showed that problem.



If the Americans have GPS why would they use TERCOM as the main guidance system for their missiles?

In Pakistan's case it is understandable that Pakistan uses inertial and TERCOM since GPS would not be a reliable guidance source for Pakistani missiles, but not in America's case.

This is just my view.



gambit said:


> Whooooppsss...
> 
> Two things:
> 
> - Radar avoidance
> - Low radar observability
> 
> Radar avoidance is about finding an active radar transmission, which may include a network of discrete stations, and avoid being in EM contact with said transmission. Terrain following is about being *BELOW* the radar horizon of said transmission. If there is a network, navigation through the inevitable gaps in said network is radar avoidance.
> 
> Low radar observability, aka 'stealth', is about being in actual EM contact of a transmission but the body somehow reflects so low of an EM response that the seeking radar dismiss such a low level signal as insignificant. So 'stealth' is actually a double threat in that the 'stealth' aircraft can have absolutely no EM response at all by flying below the radar horizon and if the situation compelled it to be in EM contact with a radar transmission its EM response will be so low that it will be discarded by the seeking radar.
> 
> The distinction is important.



I'm glad we have knowledgeable members like you.


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## Safriz

Desert Fox said:


> If the Americans have GPS why would they use TERCOM as the main guidance system for their missiles?
> .


 
Google the keyword "WGS84 Datum" .
GPS provides height above that datum which in simple words is height above sea level. It does not give you height above ground,or hill,or mountain.
TERCOM gives you height above terrain,not sea level.
So its necessary even for american cruise missiles with military grade own GPS.

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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Ok let me rephrase my question. Why TERCOM face difficulty in recognizing Flat surfaces like of desert. First Iraq War showed that problem.


I dont know if TERCOM is hampered by Flat terrain of deserts as navigation system,but it doesnt make sense that a missile will fall opff the sky simply because it could not match ground contours.Cruise missiles dont primarily rely on TERCOM as navigaion system,as they have INS and some form of satellite navigation system.?The main purpose of TERCOM is stealth.....It is common sense that Flat terrain will effect the Missile's radar avoidance capability as it does not have any land features to blend into and hide behind.
A flat surface almost kills the whole purpose of Terrain hugging...that is Radar avoidence.
It is plausible that the americans fired their Cruise missiles via Zagros Mountains for this reason rather than TERCOM failure above flat desert?


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## gambit

Safriz said:


> I dont know if TERCOM is hampered by Flat terrain of deserts as navigation system,but it doesnt make sense that a missile will fall opff the sky simply because it could not match ground contours.Cruise missiles dont primarily rely on TERCOM as navigaion system,as they have INS and some form of satellite navigation system.?The main purpose of TERCOM is stealth.....It is common sense that Flat terrain will effect the Missile's radar avoidance capability as it does not have any land features to blend into and hide behind.
> A flat surface almost kills the whole purpose of Terrain hugging...that is Radar avoidence.
> It is plausible that the americans fired their Cruise missiles via Zagros Mountains for this reason rather than TERCOM failure above flat desert?


Please do not jump to conclusions without seeing any actual data. No terrain is completely EM 'flat'. What the radar altimeter system does is to measure any terrain return to see if it matches a certain threshold and compare that threshold against record.

GPS is for general positioning and less accurate in altitude.

Terrain Following (TF) and Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) are two methods of radar avoidance, not low radar observability. TERCOM have the advantage over TF of low EM signature because the only EM emissions are from the radar altimeter, which is pretty much straight down, perhaps one degree ahead. TF have the advantage over TERCOM of no terrain record required but that the system must have active radar transmissions for several degrees ahead of the aircraft to calculate approaching *UNKNOWN* topographic features. Both methods must be able to deal with sudden EM changes due to terrain changes. If flat topo is detrimental to TERCOM then it must also be detrimental to TF and I would not be here today because I was on the F-111.

So I really do not know the source of the accusation that somehow desert terrain will fail cruise missile using TERCOM.

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## Arsalan

the PDF file have been uploaded at:
Babur Cruise Missile (Babur LACM.pdf) - PDF Archive

have edited and added information and new graphs.

regards!


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## Safriz

gambit said:


> Please do not jump to conclusions without seeing any actual data. No terrain is completely EM 'flat'. What the radar altimeter system does is to measure any terrain return to see if it matches a certain threshold and compare that threshold against record.
> 
> GPS is for general positioning and less accurate in altitude.
> 
> Terrain Following (TF) and Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) are two methods of radar avoidance, not low radar observability. TERCOM have the advantage over TF of low EM signature because the only EM emissions are from the radar altimeter, which is pretty much straight down, perhaps one degree ahead. TF have the advantage over TERCOM of no terrain record required but that the system must have active radar transmissions for several degrees ahead of the aircraft to calculate approaching *UNKNOWN* topographic features. Both methods must be able to deal with sudden EM changes due to terrain changes. If flat topo is detrimental to TERCOM then it must also be detrimental to TF and I would not be here today because I was on the F-111.
> 
> So I really do not know the source of the accusation that somehow desert terrain will fail cruise missile using TERCOM.



No i know what i am talking about..
You are a very knowledgeable member and i wont enter into a useless argument with you.

The point of last few comments was about uses of TERCOM in a cruise missile,and if TERCOM failure can crash a missile while it has other means of Navigation in place? and i think you have answered the question...


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## Safriz

Ok this video is of Raad missile,but listen to what the news caster says...
This missile and presumably its bigger version Babur are equipped with National command authority's automated strategic command and control system (Now what the hell is that?).
The news caster goes on to say that due to integraiopn of this system the missile's path can be observed all along until it hits the target.....


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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> Ok this video is of Raad missile,but listen to what the news caster says...
> *This missile and presumably its bigger version Babur are equipped with National command authority's automated strategic command and control system (Now what the hell is that?).*
> The news caster goes on to say that due to integraiopn of this system the missile's path can be observed all along until it hits the target.....



Sire you forgot, you already discussed this thing in this thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-succesful-test-fire-hatf-viii-raad-alcm.html

Page 1,4,5,6


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Sire you forgot, you already discussed this thing in this thread
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-succesful-test-fire-hatf-viii-raad-alcm.html
> 
> Page 1,4,5,6



Yes,in that thread we werent even sure why Pakistan tested that missile again...and nobody seemed to grasp the concept of 
"strategic command and control system"..
Such a system needs secure duplex messaging service......Pakistan may have various methods to do that...Is Link 16 part of it?
But here we can say for sure that the communication between RAAd/Babur Missiles and Commanders is Via Beidou satellites,and hence the accuracy..
TERCOM is provided by terrain contour maps generated by Suparco...
The SUPARCU website shows a very large area,about 2000 Km around Pakistan,of which they have extensive satellite imagery data...Yet the Cruise missiles of Pakistan have 700 Km range....
We can assume that this is associated with Beidou giving Limited coverage at the moment but soon it will be global and Pakistan will have the ability of making a Missile Guidance system of longer range...
Does Pakistan have the engine for a long range Cruise missile?
There are many unanswered questions..still.

Anyway here is the satellite data Acqisition Zone of SUPARCO,of which they have extensive terrestrial information and imagery..

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## gambit

Safriz said:


> No i know what i am talking about..
> You are a very knowledgeable member and i wont enter into a useless argument with you.
> 
> The point of last few comments was about uses of TERCOM in a cruise missile,and if TERCOM failure can crash a missile while it has other means of Navigation in place? and i think you have answered the question...


If TERCOM actually caused a cruise missile to crash, then it is from either a poor implementation of the method, which would cause the entire program to fail in the first place, or a unique anomaly. Like I advocated -- more data.


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## Safriz

gambit said:


> If TERCOM actually caused a cruise missile to crash, then it is from either a poor implementation of the method, which would cause the entire program to fail in the first place, or a unique anomaly. Like I advocated -- more data.


May be you are not understanding the original question,or we didnt put it the right way.....Obviously a TERCOM in Tomahawk cannot be of poor quality,but the many Iraq war documentaries we watched on Nat geo or other channels did say that in the initial wave of attack on Baghdad almost all the Tomahawks were fired from Persian gulf flew via the zargos mountains,instead of flying directly over the desert to Baghdad which was the shorter route.
Do you think this flight path for tomahawk was chosen for stealth or TERCOM accuracy? or both?


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## Safriz

Here are some websites stating smae or similar things about Tomahawk


Weapons - Trainor On The Tomahawk | The Gulf War | FRONTLINE | PBS
_*Q: What's the problem with the guidance system of the Tomahawks?
*
Trainor: The Tomahawk missile was a cruise missile. And it was designed to follow specific terrain features. With using satellite photography we would get the picture of the ground and this would be digitized in a form that could go into a computer that would be in the Tomahawk missile, so that when the Tomahawk was fired it simply would match what was in its program with the terrain features on the ground and follow it like a roadmap to its target. Now the problem in the Gulf War was that the desert region over in Kuwait and in Iraq was so flat that there were very few signposts. So what the Navy did was make use of the programming that went over Iran, where there were mountains, the Zagros Mountains, which gave a very clear identifying signal. And they had programmed the missiles over the Zagros Mountains long before the Iraqi crisis. This was the route that the Tomahawk missiles were going to take when they went into the Soviet Union if there had been a war with the Soviet Union. So they simply took that and modified it so that when the missiles were halfway up the Zagros Mountains on the course to the Soviet Union they'd make a left turn and go the east towards Baghdad. So in that sense all they had to digitize was the space between where the left turn took place and Baghdad. And that's what they did and that's the way the missiles were fired._

This is a piece written in 1998
Picking Smart Weapons: From Atoms To Bits - Chicago Tribune
_*Picking Smart Weapons: From Atoms To Bits*
April 24, 1998|By Bart Kosko. Bart Kosko is an associate professor of electrical engineering at University of Southern California and author of the cyber-thriller novel "Nanotime."

How smart is it to shoot smart weapons at Iraq? Does the United States still hold a working monopoly on smart technologies? Can Saddam Hussein hit back with his own smart technology?

Smart weapons have grown smarter since the U.S. first fired Tomahawk cruise missiles against Iraq in 1991 (and again in 1993). *Those dumber missiles could not find their way over the featureless sands of the desert*. They instead had to invade Iran's air space and fly over Iran's Zagros Mountains. Then their on-board computers could match their stored terrain maps against the rich mountain features below._

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## Safriz

As far as satellite radar imagery is concerned,china has many SAR satellites,
Yaogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
in addition to that there are commercially available SAR sats which sell radar imagery..
How to Buy : Astrium GeoInformation Services
Imaging Notes Magazine ||


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## Bratva

Safriz, i always wonder... How babur gonna workout if it has to pass over thar or cholistan desert? Pakistani mission planner must have thought of this and may have chose the path which Babur will follow avoiding desert terrains...


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Safriz, i always wonder... How babur gonna workout if it has to pass over thar or cholistan desert? Pakistani mission planner must have thought of this and may have chose the path which Babur will follow avoiding desert terrains...


No the missile wont fall off the sky over cholistan as alternative more reliable navigation methods are available for babur,such as Satellite navigation via Baidou and inertial navigation.\the only thing that may be compromised is the missile's stealth as there are not many land features in a desert like cholistan for the missile to blend in and hide behind,and the sand of the desert may not allow missile to fly too low as sand ingestion will certainly effect engine.
But a course can be made round the larger more permanent sand dunes,so much that an observing enemy Radar cannot have a continuous lock on the missile and it keeps losing the missile.

The Tomahawks we were told on Nat geo and Discovery channel being Fired Via Zargos Mountains instead of Iraqi Desets were in 1990-91.
Back then GPS had about 15 meter accuracy in 2D positioning and in 3D, or the height data was much less accurate,in the order of 50 meters,and a missile flying say 50-100 meters above flat desert wont be stealthy,and since it was the first wave of attack the commanders may not be wanting to take risk and make absolutely sure that the missiles remains as stealthy as possible.
This is the video footage of Tomahawks from back in 90s.






at the end of the video the reporter says that two missiles fell off target and have caused civilian causalities...That was the 1990s technology.
Things have improved since then.
The main improvement has been in satellite navigation accuracy,available SAR data and computational power available..Now even countries like Pakistan can create very accurate TERCOM maps and , sending a missile over Desert shouldn't be a problem any more.

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## The SC

gambit said:


> Stop making up things that you do not understand. Sand dunes movements are nowhere as *RAPIDLY* mobile as sea states. It does not 'need' a specific type of cruise missile. Yours is a made up 'fact'.



You should educate yourself on the desert and correct your thoughts instead of wanting to sound professional and knowledgeable with no avail; Cruise missiles need to follow a programmed route of the terrain and the desert terrain with its ever moving and form changing sands according to the winds is just not programmable, so in reality one does not need such sophisticated missiles to fly over a desert area nor is it practical in a desert war.


Wind and sand create majestic dunes
that are constant but ever-changing.
They move across the deserts,
sing to the wind and
inspire our creativity!

Sand Dunes - Phenomena of the Wind! (DesertUSA)

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## Arsalan

Safriz said:


> As far as satellite radar imagery is concerned,china has many SAR satellites,
> Yaogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> in addition to that there are commercially available SAR sats which sell radar imagery..
> How to Buy : Astrium GeoInformation Services
> Imaging Notes Magazine ||



Dear Brother,
Satellite Images are available to even common person from Google Earth and Google Maps etc. but this is not something that is enough to guide a Missile TERCOM or navigation. for this we need military grade imaginary.
SUPARCO have given the 2014 as the year for the launch of our first Remote Sensing Satellite System (PRSSS):
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...an-remote-sensing-satellite-system-prsss.html

this will help to get what we need in satellite imaginary for missile guidance via TERCOM. 

As for now, Pakistan have an agreement with China and we have access to Military Grade Images from Beidou Navigation System. It is not that we can use ANY commercial satellite provided images for this operation as they will lack the details and precision required.

Currently the Beidou coverage area is as:





it is reported that by 2020 it will be transformed into a complete Global Navigation System.
so what i think/assume is that after the launch of PRSSS, we will have coverage of our immediate area of concern via our own satellite and for global navigation, Pakistan may well adopt the Beidou-2 navigation system.

*for the ever changing desert profile, this is not a big problem since the missile is fitted with multiple guidance systems, the inertial guidance being the main system and supported with Satellite Guidance system.*

regards!

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## Safriz

^^ We cannot say anything for sure,can only speculate with good reason....China has Yaogan series SAR satellites up there and SUPARCO may have acces to them,
But commercial services like this Elevation+ : Astrium GeoInformation Services
give 10 meter and even lesser elevation accuracy and full 3D modeling of terrain at a price...
Its same as we can say Google maps was only available to head of KGB / CIA / President of USA until 80s..But now its free for all...
Likewise very accurate SAR imagery is now commercially available and not restricted to military..


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## gambit

Safriz said:


> May be you are not understanding the original question,or we didnt put it the right way.....Obviously a TERCOM in Tomahawk cannot be of poor quality,but the many Iraq war documentaries we watched on Nat geo or other channels did say that in the initial wave of attack on Baghdad almost all the Tomahawks were fired from Persian gulf flew via the zargos mountains,instead of flying directly over the desert to Baghdad which was the shorter route.
> Do you think this flight path for tomahawk was chosen for stealth or TERCOM accuracy? or both?


You are still jumping to conclusions. Radar detection of hostile airborne intruders do not like terrain. In war, the shortest route is often the most lethal because it lulls the gullible into death traps. So if we can exploit the tactical advantage of terrain that does nothing to diminish our impact at the target and preserve element of surprise -- take the terrain.

This where I do not understand why this baseless claim that desert terrain is somehow detrimental to radar data processing is taken so seriously. The US have desert, mountainous, bodies of water, sea, and cities. Why would we deploy a cruise missile that cannot handle desert terrain? I do not understand the logic here.



The SC said:


> You should educate yourself on the desert and correct your thoughts instead of wanting to sound professional and knowledgeable with no avail; Cruise missiles need to follow a programmed route of the terrain and the desert terrain with its ever moving and form changing sands according to the winds is just not programmable, so in reality one does not need such sophisticated missiles to fly over a desert area nor is it practical in a desert war.
> 
> 
> Wind and sand create majestic dunes
> that are constant but ever-changing.
> They move across the deserts,
> sing to the wind and
> inspire our creativity!
> 
> Sand Dunes - Phenomena of the Wind! (DesertUSA)


Show me a credible source that say sand dunes moves as swiftly as sea state.


----------



## gambit

Safriz said:


> Here are some websites stating smae or similar things about Tomahawk
> 
> 
> Weapons - Trainor On The Tomahawk | The Gulf War | FRONTLINE | PBS
> _*Q: What's the problem with the guidance system of the Tomahawks?
> *
> Trainor: The Tomahawk missile was a cruise missile. And it was designed to follow specific terrain features. With using satellite photography we would get the picture of the ground and this would be digitized in a form that could go into a computer that would be in the Tomahawk missile, so that when the Tomahawk was fired it simply would match what was in its program with the terrain features on the ground and follow it like a roadmap to its target. Now the problem in the Gulf War was that the desert region over in Kuwait and in Iraq was so flat that there were very few signposts. So what the Navy did was make use of the programming that went over Iran, where there were mountains, the Zagros Mountains, which gave a very clear identifying signal. And they had programmed the missiles over the Zagros Mountains long before the Iraqi crisis. This was the route that the Tomahawk missiles were going to take when they went into the Soviet Union if there had been a war with the Soviet Union. So they simply took that and modified it so that when the missiles were halfway up the Zagros Mountains on the course to the Soviet Union they'd make a left turn and go the east towards Baghdad. So in that sense all they had to digitize was the space between where the left turn took place and Baghdad. And that's what they did and that's the way the missiles were fired._
> 
> This is a piece written in 1998
> Picking Smart Weapons: From Atoms To Bits - Chicago Tribune
> _*Picking Smart Weapons: From Atoms To Bits*
> April 24, 1998|By Bart Kosko. Bart Kosko is an associate professor of electrical engineering at University of Southern California and author of the cyber-thriller novel "Nanotime."
> 
> How smart is it to shoot smart weapons at Iraq? Does the United States still hold a working monopoly on smart technologies? Can Saddam Hussein hit back with his own smart technology?
> 
> Smart weapons have grown smarter since the U.S. first fired Tomahawk cruise missiles against Iraq in 1991 (and again in 1993). *Those dumber missiles could not find their way over the featureless sands of the desert*. They instead had to invade Iran's air space and fly over Iran's Zagros Mountains. Then their on-board computers could match their stored terrain maps against the rich mountain features below._


Those were the results of poor programming.

Here is the problem...

If I start out with the assumption that I must have terrain variability as part of a triad of data processing: altitude, position, and radar, if any of those legs do not have commensurate accuracy and precision with each other, then at certain points in the process, I will have a failure.

Take altitude for example, if I have two sources of altitude information, and if each one of them demand priority, meaning each of them insist that *IT* is the correct one, then both sources must have precision and accuracy within a certain percentage of each other. The two sources are: radar altimeter and recorded. There lies the problem: what is recorded to be 100 meters is not real time but radar information is. So if my terrain intelligence is inadequate and my programming expects both to be within 1 meters of each other, I must have a provision on how to deal with the possibility that they will out of range of each other. If I add pitot/static altimeter information into the mix, I must compensate for real time air pressure differential between a hot day, high humidity, or coming storm. Now I have three sources of altitude information: recorded, radar altimeter, pitot/static. The last two are real time information. All of them I programmed to be within 1 meter of each other. That is an extremely 'tight' criteria. Any out of bound condition and I must give the cruise missile a default alternative: pitch up or self destruct.

What happened back in Desert Storm was the result of inadequate satellite imagery of desert terrain. Inadequate in the sense that those terrain intelligence did not contain sufficient variability in features -- like hill tops -- for the system to correlate what it was programmed to expect and what it sees in real time through radar altimeter. So the argument that somehow slow moving sand dunes 'confused' the cruise missiles is absurd. When the missile is flying over the terrain at several hundreds km/h while a moving sand dune moves how many meters a day...???

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## Safriz

> Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) navigation system uses an on-board contour map of the terrain that a cruise missile will be flying over. The system "sees" the terrain it is flying over using its radar system and matches this to the map stored in memory. A Tercom system considerably increases the accuracy of a missile compared to the older and simpler inertial navigation system (INS). A Tercom system also allows a missile to fly lower, making it harder to detect by ground radar.
> TAINS
> 
> A Tercom system is usually employed together with the inertial navigation system. The inertial navigation system provides a rough positional information. The Tercom unit uses this information to find an approximate area on the map where the missile may be. By comparing the contour map with the actual contour reading provided by the radar, the Tercom obtains a more precise estimate of the position. The corrected information is fed back to the INS. This combined system is called the TAINS system (Tercom-Aided Inertial Navigation System).
> 
> A Tercom system requires very accurate maps of the path to target (for example, at 1-meter resolution) and a radar able to obtain precise changes in elevation. When flying over water, contour maps (elevation information) are replaced by magnetic field maps.



An explanation of how Tercom works and how system deals with flat surfaces.


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## The SC

gambit said:


> You are still jumping to conclusions. Radar detection of hostile airborne intruders do not like terrain. In war, the shortest route is often the most lethal because it lulls the gullible into death traps. So if we can exploit the tactical advantage of terrain that does nothing to diminish our impact at the target and preserve element of surprise -- take the terrain.
> 
> This where I do not understand why this baseless claim that desert terrain is somehow detrimental to radar data processing is taken so seriously. The US have desert, mountainous, bodies of water, sea, and cities. Why would we deploy a cruise missile that cannot handle desert terrain? I do not understand the logic here.
> 
> 
> Show me a credible source that say sand dunes moves as swiftly as sea state.




I said : like the sea, it needs specific specs, not the desert equals the sea in movements , but it is in movement too, just like the sea is in movement, sometimes swifter than the sea (depending on the winds) and sometimes calmer, again just like the sea.


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## Thorough Pro

Safriz said:


> ^^ We cannot say anything for sure,can only speculate with good reason....China has Yaogan series SAR satellites up there and SUPARCO may have acces to them,
> But commercial services like this Elevation+ : Astrium GeoInformation Services
> give 10 meter and even lesser elevation accuracy and full 3D modeling of terrain at a price...
> Its same as we can say Google maps was only available to head of KGB / CIA / President of USA until 80s..But now its free for all...
> Likewise very accurate SAR imagery is now commercially available and not restricted to military..



The only difference is that commercial imagery can not and will not provide imagery of classified zones, which are thousands of square miles around a sensitive millitary / civilian installtion. even in google earth you can not see vast areas of ,many western countries but you can see 100% of non-friendly (to west) countries, and vice versa.


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## gambit

The SC said:


> I said : like the sea, it needs specific specs, not the desert equals the sea in movements , but it is in movement too, just like the sea is in movement, sometimes swifter than the sea (depending on the winds) and sometimes calmer, again just like the sea.


This is all nonsense. I have sat in the WSO's seat of an F-111E at 50 meters altitude over the Channel. I tuned the TFR to pick up surface waves and the aircraft responded. Made for a very bumpy flight. But generally, any TFR system does not care about surface waves. As long as the rise and fall of the waves are within a programmed range determined by the Douglas Sea State scale...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...Then the FLCS will not respond. So do not tell me that shifting sand dunes moving glacially compare to the average sea state of the English Channel is going to throw off a radar.

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## Safriz

www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-stra...advanced-missile-technology-nescom-chief.html

NESCOM being an employer of 16000 engineers and technicians,plus self supporting via export of defence tech is a reliable source of all missile tech for pakistan
No wonder Baburis such high tech missile.
The thred i posted is from 2007 ,and back then NESCOM had multiple high tech gear gor pakistani defence forces....Must have improved many fold in the last 5 years.


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## SBD-3

An interview with Dr Samar Mubarik some more info about Babur at 1:04 to 1:40
Dr. Samar Mubarak Mand - Babur Cruise Missile - YouTube

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## regular

hasnain0099 said:


> An interview with Dr Samar Mubarik some more info about Babur at 1:04 to 1:40
> Dr. Samar Mubarak Mand - Babur Cruise Missile - YouTube


Man this interview is from 2007 very old now.......


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## SBD-3

regular said:


> Man this interview is from 2007 very old now.......


the point is that babur has 5 optical camras to identify and pinpoint the target and matching it with internal map


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## The Deterrent

hasnain0099 said:


> the point is that babur has 5 optical camras to identify and pinpoint the target and matching it with internal map


 
Not exactly...Dr. Mand was talking about the TOTAL number of on-board cameras. In the test-flights, there are a couple of other on-board cameras which provide live feedback of the flight and are kept for technical study later on.

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## Nishan_101

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Dear Brother,
> Satellite Images are available to even common person from Google Earth and Google Maps etc. but this is not something that is enough to guide a Missile TERCOM or navigation. for this we need military grade imaginary.
> SUPARCO have given the 2014 as the year for the launch of our first Remote Sensing Satellite System (PRSSS):
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...an-remote-sensing-satellite-system-prsss.html
> 
> this will help to get what we need in satellite imaginary for missile guidance via TERCOM.
> 
> As for now, Pakistan have an agreement with China and we have access to Military Grade Images from Beidou Navigation System. It is not that we can use ANY commercial satellite provided images for this operation as they will lack the details and precision required.
> 
> Currently the Beidou coverage area is as:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is reported that by 2020 it will be transformed into a complete Global Navigation System.
> so what i think/assume is that after the launch of PRSSS, we will have coverage of our immediate area of concern via our own satellite and for global navigation, Pakistan may well adopt the Beidou-2 navigation system.
> 
> *for the ever changing desert profile, this is not a big problem since the missile is fitted with multiple guidance systems, the inertial guidance being the main system and supported with Satellite Guidance system.*
> 
> regards!


 
I hope that Pakistan will invite KSA, Oman, UAE, Jordan, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait to make our own GPS. Ameen.


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## regular

Nishan_101 said:


> I hope that Pakistan will invite KSA, Oman, UAE, Jordan, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait to make our own GPS. Ameen.


I don't think any possibility for that to happen in future......but I could be wrong in my assessment but I'm damn sure about that assumption.........


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## Safriz

regular said:


> I don't think any possibility for that to happen in future......but I could be wrong in my assessment but I'm damn sure about that assumption.........


 
For now Chinese navigation system Beidou will do the job for Pakistani military needs...


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## KRAIT

Safriz said:


> For now Chinese navigation system Beidou will do the job for Pakistani military needs...
> In an end game scenario the American GPS satellires and Russian GLONASS can be shot down,but chinese Beidou will be much harder to be disabked as it has Geostationary satellites flying at 27000 kilometers,well out of reach of any missile.


And you think you can shoot down US and Russia's and future Indian regional navigation system satellite. If you shoot US and Russia's satellite, do you think you can get away with it. And as far as I remember Pakistan don't have ASAT capability.

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## Markus

KRAIT said:


> And you think you can shoot down US and Russia's and future Indian regional navigation system satellite. If you shoot US and Russia's satellite, do you think you can get away with it. And as far as I remember Pakistan don't have ASAT capability.



Satellites in GEO orbits CANNOT be shot down.


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## KRAIT

Markus said:


> Satellites in GEO orbits CANNOT be shot down.


Tell that to person who said they can. Only LEO satelite can be shot down, only US and China has demonstrated this ability, India just stated they too can as Agni-V would be used but India said they won't risk other satellites sincetest results in thousands of debris, and opted for simulation study to test their capability.


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## Safriz

KRAIT said:


> And you think you can shoot down US and Russia's and future Indian regional navigation system satellite. If you shoot US and Russia's satellite, do you think you can get away with it. And as far as I remember Pakistan don't have ASAT capability.


 
I didnt mention Pakistan or any other country,and didnt name a weapon system.
I was on about pissibility based on existing technolgy.


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## KRAIT

Safriz said:


> I didnt mention Pakistan or any other country,and didnt name a weapon system.
> I was on about pissibility based on existing technolgy.


My bad...but it is not easy to bring down these satellites as they travel thousands of km/hr. Way higher than any current system except US and China can, Russia and India may be....


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## Markus

Safriz said:


> I didnt mention Pakistan or any other country,and didnt name a weapon system.
> I was on about pissibility based on existing technolgy.



Existing Technology?

Is there any technology available today that can bring down the likes of GPS and company?


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## KRAIT

Markus said:


> Existing Technology?
> 
> Is there any technology available today that can bring down the likes of GPS and company?


Direct Energy Weapons, Laser....US recently test high energy Laser.....


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## regular

Safriz said:


> For now Chinese navigation system Beidou will do the job for Pakistani military needs...


But I don't think right now Beidou system is capable enough to cover every part of the globe....I guess its short of some sattelites to cover it up . yea maybe within next couple of years, possible........


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## Markus

KRAIT said:


> Direct Energy Weapons, Laser....US recently test high energy Laser.....



No mention of taking out a GEO satellite or even research towards it but may possible down the line with more deducated research.

Examples

Made by Northrop Grumman:
On March 18, 2009 Northrop Grumman announced that its engineers in Redondo Beach had successfully built and tested an electric laser capable of producing a 100-kilowatt ray of light, powerful enough to destroy cruise missiles, artillery, rockets and mortar rounds.[8] An electric laser is theoretically capable, according to Brian Strickland, manager for the United States Army's Joint High Power Solid State Laser program, of being mounted in an aircraft, ship, or vehicle because it requires much less space for its supporting equipment than a chemical laser.[9]
On April 6, 2011, the U.S. Navy successfully tested a laser gun, manufactured by Northrop Grumman, that was mounted on the former USS Paul Foster, which is currently used as the navy's test ship. When engaged during the test that occurred off the coast of Central California in the Pacific Ocean test range, the laser gun was documented as having "a destructive effect on a high-speed cruising target," said Chief of Naval Research Admiral Nevin Carr.[10] While classified, the range of the laser gun is attributed to miles, not yards.
Northrop Grumman has announced the availability of a high-energy solid-state laser weapon system that they call FIRESTRIKE, introduced on 13 November 2008. The system is modular, using 15 kW modules that can be combined to provide various levels of power.

On 19 July 2010 an anti-aircraft laser described as the Laser Close-In Weapon System was unveiled at the Farnborough Airshow.[11]

The Zeus laser weapon is the first laser and the first energy weapon of any type to be used on a battlefield. It is used for neutralizing mines and unexploded ordnance.
Laser Area Defense System.
The Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL) is an experimental U.S. Navy deuterium fluoride laser and was tested against an Air Force satellite in 1997.
In 2011, the U.S. Navy began to test the Maritime Laser Demonstrator (MLD), a laser for use aboard its warships.[12][13]
Personnel Halting and Stimulation Response, or PHaSR, is a non-lethal hand-held weapon developed by the United States Air Force [14] Its purpose is to "dazzle" or stun a target. It was developed by Air Force's Directed Energy Directorate.
Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) is a weaponized deuterium fluoride laser developed in a joint research project by Israel and the U.S. It is designed to shoot down aircraft and missiles. See also National missile defense.
The U.S. Air Force's Airborne Laser, or Advanced Tactical Laser, is a plan to mount a CO2 gas laser or COIL chemical laser on a modified Boeing 747 to shoot down missiles.[15][16]
Portable Efficient Laser Testbed (PELT)[17]
Laser AirCraft CounterMeasures (ACCM)
See also Electrolaser#Examples of electrolasers.


Directed-energy weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## KRAIT

I am taking about future weapons........there was a thread on PDF where new high power laser was discussed and if I remember correctly, it was in range of gigawatts....but the pu pluse duration was very short. Sustained laser in future will be the potential weapons against satellites.

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## Markus

KRAIT said:


> I am taking about future weapons........there was a thread on PDF where new high power laser was discussed and if I remember correctly, it was in range of gigawatts....but the pu pluse duration was very short. Sustained laser in future will be the potential weapons against satellites.



Several years away...until then the our assets in GEO are quite safe.


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## KRAIT

Markus said:


> Several years away...until then the our assets in GEO are quite safe.


If they manage to develop Laser with very minute angle of deviation, higher energy with subsequently longer time period, GEO will be the easy target as they stationary wrto the earth(Geo Synchonous).

But you are right, may be it would take years, but US and China are known for their surprises.


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## regular

KRAIT said:


> If they manage to develop Laser with very minute angle of deviation, higher energy with subsequently longer time period, GEO will be the easy target as they stationary wrto the earth(Geo Synchonous).
> 
> But you are right, may be it would take years, but US and China are known for their surprises.


Yea ure GEO sattelites are safe for now from us only but they are under the target of US and China ..........


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## KRAIT

regular said:


> Yea ure GEO sattelites are safe for now from us only but they are under the target of US and China ..........


Do you know how gar GEO satellites are from the surface of earth.....

35,786 km...does any missile has this range


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## kurup

regular said:


> Yea ure GEO sattelites are safe for now from us only but they are under the target of US and China ..........



ASAT weapons are capable of destryoing sats only in the Low Earth orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia......

The contries which posses this capability right now are US , soviet union and china ...

No country has the capabilty to destroy sats in the Geostationary orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Safriz

octopus said:


> ASAT weapons are capable of destryoing sats only in the Low Earth orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia......
> 
> The contries which posses this capability right now are US , soviet union and china ...
> 
> No country has the capabilty to destroy sats in the Geostationary orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Its not a matter of can or cannot...
There are international treaties barring nations from persuing space warfare capabilities and developed nations have billions of dollars worth satellites up there,so they abide by those treaties...

Satellites are high and fast but predictable.
Satellites maintain their orbit and their position at any given time can be known precisely.
And you dont need a big massive warhead to destroy it either,just a launcher with escape velocity,which can be rather small..


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## regular

octopus said:


> ASAT weapons are capable of destryoing sats only in the Low Earth orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia......
> 
> The contries which posses this capability right now are US , soviet union and china ...
> 
> No country has the capabilty to destroy sats in the Geostationary orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I don't wanna go into the discussion but I guess U are totally mistaken my friend in ure assumptions.U shold checkout with any missile developer scientist or engineer.........


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## kurup

regular said:


> I don't wanna go into the discussion but I guess U are totally mistaken my friend in ure assumptions.U shold checkout with any missile developer scientist or engineer.........



I am no missile developer or scientist but why dont you give the details............



Safriz said:


> Its not a matter of can or cannot...
> There are international treaties barring nations from persuing space warfare capabilities and developed nations have billions of dollars worth satellites up there,so they abide by those treaties...
> 
> Satellites are high and fast but predictable.
> Satellites maintain their orbit and their position at any given time can be known precisely.
> And you dont need a big massive warhead to destroy it either,just a launcher with escape velocity,which can be rather small..



Read post 104


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## Safriz

octopus said:


> I am no missile developer or scientist but why dont you give the details............
> 
> 
> 
> Read post 104


 Use common sense..
A man made rocket takes the satellite to that altitude...
Can the payload be changed with warhead? So yes it can be done,but not being done and no new technology is needed.


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## regular

octopus said:


> I am no missile developer or scientist but why dont you give the details............


Read post # 109 by Safriz
It gives very simple and clear answer for ure inquisitions about the anti GEO sattelite technology......


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## Arsalan

Babur Missile uses a combination of various guidance systems in order to ensure a fail safe mission accomplishment.

The Babur's guidance system uses a combination of inertial navigation systems, terrain contour matching (TERCOM), Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) and GPS satellite guidance.

The last two threads only discuss Geo Satellites and whether these can be destroyed or not and blah blah blah..

Guys, please do not derail this, lets stay focused and post if we have any information related to BABUR missile..

thanks and best regards!

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## Safriz

can rafi's thread merged here? The one about naval version of babur?


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## Bratva

i have observed whenever booster of babur separates and engine takes control. . this process happens in mili seconds. how come this change of phase is so smooth and so fast, there is no slight variation in missile altitude i.e missle loosing height during booster separation and engine starting? Does engine starts so fast that it took over the control in fraction of second? 

or is it the case engine is already in start mode and whenever booster separates it takes over the control?


Second question. Booster seapartes after attaining desired height. Wings deployed automatically when launched. Which thing in cruise missile controlling all these operations and weather this operation instructions are stored in cruise missile memory i.e hard coded instructions i.e. After certain height perform this function etc etc? Or missile takes decision on run time and deploys wing and other things by judging the readings of INS and comparing these readings with parameters defined which if are met than do this operation if not continue attaining height??

And last but not the least. The flying altitude? Is it hard coded too or missile decide on run time at how much he has to fly?


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## Safriz

One more thing we keep ignoring while discussing Anti missile systems being used against Babur..
Is the Babur's ability to navigate around the misile defences..Its "Waypoint to waypoint" navigation..
It can be pre programmed to navigate through a set of co-ordinates as in Latitude Longitudes of a pre planned route with the missile taking positioning information from Beidou Satellite navigation system,and can navigate around the areas known to be defended with SAMs or other systems used to destroy cruise missiles... or navigate Via landmarks using INS,DSMAC..Such as turn right at this mountain range and left at that mountain peak or town... (one of the reasons why cruise missiles are seldom fired over barren terrain)...
So yes..for Babur there is high probability to avaid enemy defences by navigating waypoint to waypoint around the defences and hit the target.

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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> i have observed whenever booster of babur separates and engine takes control. . this process happens in mili seconds. how come this change of phase is so smooth and so fast, there is no slight variation in missile altitude i.e missle loosing height during booster separation and engine starting? Does engine starts so fast that it took over the control in fraction of second?


The thrust of the booster motor is very high, so it pushes the missile with enough momentum that it has enough time to deploy wings, drop the air-intake and start the engine. No, the engine doesn't has enough thrust to take immediate control. Babur is subsonic (~Mach 0.7-0.8) but IMO the booster gives it more velocity than required, so after deploying the wings it can continue a stable flight till it slows down. In the meantime the engine starts.
No, the engine is not in "start mode" already.



> Second question. Booster seapartes after attaining desired height. Wings deployed automatically when launched. Which thing in cruise missile controlling all these operations and weather this operation instructions are stored in cruise missile memory i.e hard coded instructions i.e. After certain height perform this function etc etc? Or missile takes decision on run time and deploys wing and other things by judging the readings of INS and comparing these readings with parameters defined which if are met than do this operation if not continue attaining height??



The Missile's Mission Computer controls these things. Yes, they are hard-coded.
Only the guys who are involved in the program would know this, but my guess is that this operation is done by the activation of some G-switches and Pressure sensors etc.



> And last but not the least. The flying altitude? Is it hard coded too or missile decide on run time at how much he has to fly?


The whole TERCOM map is fed to the missile upon receiving the target package instructions by the launch crew. So it is a run-time thing.

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## Arsalan

Safriz said:


> can rafi's thread merged here? The one about naval version of babur?


no issues but i personally think we should wait till the news is confirmed and something materialize.
as for now it is more of a rumor and a perfect Troll Field so we better keep that away for time being.
we are all actively participating there. once the things materialize, we can merge the threads or at least share information.



Safriz said:


> One more thing we keep ignoring while discussing Anti missile systems being used against Babur..
> Is the Babur's ability to navigate around the misile defences..Its "Waypoint to waypoint" navigation..
> It can be pre programmed to navigate through a set of co-ordinates as in Latitude Longitudes of a pre planned route with the missile taking positioning information from Beidou Satellite navigation system,and can navigate around the areas known to be defended with SAMs or other systems used to destroy cruise missiles... or navigate Via landmarks using INS,DSMAC..Such as turn right at this mountain range and left at that mountain peak or town... (one of the reasons why cruise missiles are seldom fired over barren terrain)...
> So yes..for Babur there is high probability to avaid enemy defences by navigating waypoint to waypoint around the defences and hit the target.


the stealthier design along with low flight altitude makes it a bit hard to detect in first place. But, this is not THE STEALTH missile, so even if detect (that it may well be) the points as you mentioned above all help evade enemy missile defense!

regards!

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## Safriz

Pause the video at 0:22






You notice the target and the missile about to hit it..
The target is small,may be a disused tank or APC...although a Cruise missile is normally use to hit a Building sized target...Being able to hit a small target shows accuracy of the platform......
The other thing we notice is the final angle of approach of the missile...
It does not rise and dive as many other Cruise missiles so in final stage...But we do notice that the angle is very shallow,so it does remain very close to ground and relies on terrain hugging for detection prevention...

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Pause the video at 0:22
> 
> You notice the target and the missile about to hit it..
> The target is small,may be a disused tank or APC...although a Cruise missile is normally use to hit a Building sized target...Being able to hit a small target shows accuracy of the platform......
> The other thing we notice is the final angle of approach of the missile...
> It does not rise and dive as many other Cruise missiles so in final stage...But we do notice that the angle is very shallow,so it does remain very close to ground and relies on terrain hugging for detection prevention...



No, its not a target. Its just a bush, and there are hundreds of them around the area. Don't jump to conclusions because of the crappy video quality.
The video has been cut from many parts. They didn't show when it dived after 0:21 (that altitude is pretty high).
Yes, Babur descends and flies in the terrain hugging mode in the terminal stage of the flight.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> No, its not a target. Its just a bush, and there are hundreds of them around the area. Don't jump to conclusions because of the crappy video quality.
> The video has been cut from many parts. They didn't show when it dived after 0:21 (that altitude is pretty high).
> Yes, Babur descends and flies in the terrain hugging mode in the terminal stage of the flight.



yup..thanks for correcting me..
the target is visible at 0:24..and at 0:26 you see some dust/smoke rising from target..
the target is small...


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> yup..thanks for correcting me..
> the target is visible at 0:24..and at 0:26 you see some dust/smoke rising from target..
> the target is small...



I assure you, there wasn't any specific target except the target area. The video was already not professionally captured, and the quality worsened by the distributor. What you see is a pixelated bush and dirt mound, nothing else.
Furthermore, Babur is not an Anti-Tank missile, and the test does not requires placement of a target at the impact point. It has a primary nuclear role, and the present system is closest to what is required for that. Besides, it would be an airburst in that case.

It is not smoke, just the sand being thrown off when the missile made the impact. The target-hitting section of the video is in slow-motion.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> I assure you, there wasn't any specific target except the target area. The video was already not professionally captured, and the quality worsened by the distributor. What you see is a pixelated bush and dirt mound, nothing else.
> Furthermore, Babur is not an Anti-Tank missile, and the test does not requires placement of a target at the impact point. It has a primary nuclear role, and the present system is closest to what is required for that. Besides, it would be an airburst in that case.
> 
> It is not smoke, just the sand being thrown off when the missile made the impact. The target-hitting section of the video is in slow-motion.



so basicallly...it just falls into a ditch near toba tek singh...or pid dadan khan...


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> so basicallly...it just falls into a ditch near toba tek singh...or pid dadan khan...



Yeah somewhere in Baluchistan.
If a target was really needed, a simple brick wall or structure would be enough (which was done in case of Tomahawk). Babur GLCM has yet to evolve, do not over-estimate its abilities.


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## MastanKhan

Safriz said:


> Pause the video at 0:22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You notice the target and the missile about to hit it..
> The target is small,may be a disused tank or APC...although a Cruise missile is normally use to hit a Building sized target...Being able to hit a small target shows accuracy of the platform......
> The other thing we notice is the final angle of approach of the missile...
> It does not rise and dive as many other Cruise missiles so in final stage...But we do notice that the angle is very shallow,so it does remain very close to ground and relies on terrain hugging for detection prevention...



Hi,

This particular variety followed its designated path---like a building or a designated bunker---its accuracy is within feet---around 50---100 feet that was around 3 years ago---. There may be other versions that can drop bomblets or other munitions----. But this demo was focused on takeoff, levelled flight and hitting the target which was as you pointed a dirt mound----.

Just for tests---the designer can program 50---or a 100 yards hit away from the target just to confuse those that need to be---. So---if a hit is programmed 50 yards away from a visible target---then it mean the missile hit is a bulls eye---the visual target was not the real target---.

You must never be confused with what you see in case of these missiles.


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## The Deterrent

MastanKhan said:


> Just for tests---the designer can program 50---or a 100 yards hit away from the target just to confuse those that need to be---. So---if a hit is programmed 50 yards away from a visible target---then it mean the missile hit is a bulls eye---the visual target was not the real target---.



Are you suggesting that the missile was DELIBERATELY "mis-guided" during a test flight? That is a pretty lame explanation. The issue isn't really hard to understand.

See, flag marking and making white circles around the intended target area/impact point for Strategic Missiles Testing is an old thing now. This is the GPS age. The only thing needed is to "mark" the target with GPS coordinates on computer-based map. After the flight, the error can be easily calculated by the respective team. 
No foreign eye in the sky can ever know the missile's accuracy that way, because the target coordinates are only known to the concerned organization. The only other object in vicinity is an OP (observation post), which can't be helpful in this regard either.


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## MastanKhan

AhaseebA said:


> Are you suggesting that the missile was DELIBERATELY "mis-guided" during a test flight? That is a pretty lame explanation. The issue isn't really hard to understand.
> 
> See, flag marking and making white circles around the intended target area/impact point for Strategic Missiles Testing is an old thing now. This is the GPS age. The only thing needed is to "mark" the target with GPS coordinates on computer-based map. After the flight, the error can be easily calculated by the respective team.
> No foreign eye in the sky can ever know the missile's accuracy that way, because the target coordinates are only known to the concerned organization. The only other object in vicinity is an OP (observation post), which can't be helpful in this regard either.



Hi,

I am only suggesting to them--who can understand what i wrote---if you cannot comprehend it---sorry---class is over.

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## Rafi

Babur is extremely accurate - and will hit within just a few feet, after flying it's full range.

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## Bratva

Rafi said:


> Babur is extremely accurate - and will hit within just a few feet, after flying it's full range.


 
you are over estimating the capability. Without satellite guidance is it possible of having a accuracy of few feets?


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> you are over estimating the capability. Without satellite guidance is it possible of having a accuracy of few feets?


 
It has satellite guidance....


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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> It has satellite guidance....



Chinese satellite guidance not yet operationally tested and Beidou is also not deployed fully yet


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Chinese satellites not yet operationally tested.


 
It has been integrated already into raad and babur...
The only problem is that Beidou as it is called itself is in development phase and when the constellation is completed we will see babur flying into windows same as tomahawk..

Right now tests are for assessing how babur responds to inputs from satellites and from Beidou ground based command module..tests are n not aimed at assessing bulls eye accuracy....


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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> you are over estimating the capability. Without satellite guidance is it possible of having a accuracy of few feets?



Pakistan has been using Commercial GPS for a while, and that gives a moderate accuracy of 15-25m. Not much can be said about Beidou right now.
However, in future if Pakistan's capabilities evolve, a terminal guidance system based on IR imaging cameras can be put up.


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## Bratva

AhaseebA said:


> *Pakistan has been using Commercial GPS for a while, and that gives a moderate accuracy of 15-25m*. Not much can be said about Beidou right now.
> However, in future if Pakistan's capabilities evolve, *a terminal guidance system based on IR imaging cameras can be put up*.



1. TERCOM and DSMAC don't give an accuracy between 10-20 M? if not than what's the use of Cruise missile. I thought satellite guidance is only used when you need <10 Mm accuracy

2. Doesn't Ra'ad use IR guidance along with Tercom, Dsmac and Terminal guidance?


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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> 1. TERCOM and DSMAC don't give an accuracy between 10-20 M? if not than what's the use of Cruise missile. I thought satellite guidance is only used when you need <10 Mm accuracy
> 
> 2. Doesn't Ra'ad use IR guidance along with Tercom, Dsmac and Terminal guidance?



1. TERCOM is for guidance during the flight. DSMAC provides the terminal guidance, by comparing live video frames of target area with images already stored. DSMAC basically guides the missile to an "area", which could be 1000+ square meters (just an assumption). So that much accuracy is pretty good for a nuclear role.
For Pakistan, the use of a cruise missile is the nuclear use. Perhaps in future when Pakistan becomes more technologically advanced, we would see them in a conventional, tactical role.
Correct, but only military grade GPS provides ~5m accuracy.

2. No, Ra'ad ALCM is just a smaller version of Babur GLCM. There is no IR guidance for the terminal phase.


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## Arsalan

Babur in its current form is already good enough for tactical attack role. not over estimating just presenting what is true!
the missile have proved time and over again a 3m hitting accuracy after its complete flight path!
God forbade, is Pakistan see a war, Babur will be among the primary long range tactical attack platforms. The nuclear role is left for Ballistic missiles with highly accurate tactical Nukes relaying on Nasr and Abdali and for longer ranges we have Shaheen and Ghauri!

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## The Deterrent

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Babur in its current form is already good enough for tactical attack role. not over estimating just presenting what is true!
> the missile have proved time and over again a 3m hitting accuracy after its complete flight path!
> God forbade, is Pakistan see a war, Babur will be among the primary long range tactical attack platforms. The nuclear role is left for Ballistic missiles with highly accurate tactical Nukes relaying on Nasr and Abdali and for longer ranges we have Shaheen and Ghauri!



Agreed sir, but the 3 meter accuracy was stated by the same newspapers who stated the range of Shaheen-1A as 3000km, Nasr's range as 180km and what not. I'll believe when I get it confirmed myself or somebody here confirms it or ISPR releases the details _somehow_.
No, both Babur GLCM and Ra'ad ALCM have already been configured to launch a nuclear attack. Both will complement Ballistic missiles in future.

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## Arsalan

AhaseebA said:


> Agreed sir, but the 3 meter accuracy was stated by the same newspapers who stated the range of Shaheen-1A as 3000km, Nasr's range as 180km and what not. I'll believe when I get it confirmed myself or somebody here confirms it or ISPR releases the details _somehow_.
> No, both Babur GLCM and Ra'ad ALCM have already been configured to launch a nuclear attack. Both will complement Ballistic missiles in future.



 agreed with the newspaper thing but what is said by Babur is not from one source only!
while the ranges of Shaheen and Nasr were only reported wrongly there.

The accuracy details of both Babur and Raad, quoted from ISPR are available on internet. ISPR in its direct press release used "Pin Point Accuracy" 


> *No PR143/2012-ISPR Dated: June 5, 2012*
> *Rawalpindi - June 5, 2012: *
> Pakistan today conducted a successful test fire of the multi tube, indigenously developed Cruise Missile Hatf-VII (Babur) having a* range of 700 kms*. Babur Cruise Missile is a *low flying, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability, pin point accuracy and radar avoidance features*. It can carry both nuclear and conventional warheads and has stealth capabilities. It also incorporates the most *modern cruise missile technology of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC), which enhances its precision and effectiveness manifolds.*
> The missile was launched from a state of the art multi tube Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV) which significantly enhances the targeting and employment options of Babur Weapon System in *both the conventional and nuclear modes*.
> The test was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General Khalid Ahmed Kidwai (R), Chairman National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), Mr Muhammad Irfan Burney, senior officers from the armed forces and strategic organizations, scientists and engineers. The test will consolidate Pakistan&#8217;s strategic deterrence capability, and further strengthen national security.
> The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.



It is not that Babur wont be able to launch Nuclear attack or that it is not capable or configure to do so. All i am saying is that the highly accurate platform will find more use in tactical attack against air bases, ground radar and command and control centers. No one will want to go NUCLEAR in a state of war as it is a path of mutual destruction and Babur and Raad are our prime assets to prevent us from going on that track with providing potential tactical attack capabilities.


regards!

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## Safriz

Integration of Beidou is now confirmed..
Only Beidou has two way communication capability....Making it possible for the missile to continuously transmit its position for commanders..On demand..


> The system has the added capability of real time remote monitoring of missile flight path.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ulti-tube-version-tested-2.html#ixzz26ip8ImOI


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## Hyperion

mafiya said:


> you are over estimating the capability. Without satellite guidance is it possible of having a accuracy of few feets?


Yes, jane-man! It's indeed possible.

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## Hyperion

Safriz said:


> It has satellite guidance....


Even without GPS/GLONAS/BAIDU, if need be, it's possible. Depends what's the state of development are our LRG's!


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Yes, *jane-man*! It's indeed possible.



Astagfirullah !

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Astagfirullah !


Can't it be used for "buddy" etc etc?

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## Last Hope

Pakistan test fired Babur cruise missile today, which is a step closer to Navel version. 

We are about ready with the Navel version of Babur.

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## Arsalan

Congratulation Pakistan!!
We are testing this system extensively for more reliability.
Please do not speculate anything based on this test as it was a routine evaluation test firing!



> *Pakistan test fires Babur Cruise Missile Hatf-VII *
> Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful test fire of the ingeniously developed multi-tube Cruise Missile Hatf-VII (Babur), having a range of 700 kilometers.
> 
> Babur Cruise Missile is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which can strike targets both at Land and Sea with pin point accuracy. It carries stealth features. Equipped with modern cruise missile technology of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC), it can carry both nuclear and conventional warheads.
> 
> The missile was launched from a state of the art Multi Tube Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV), which significantly enhances the targeting and deployment options of Babur Weapon system.
> 
> The test was witnessed by Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (R) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) Mr. Muhammad Irfan Burney, senior officers from the armed forces and strategic organizations.
> 
> In today&#8217;s test National Command Authority&#8217;s fully automated Strategic Command and Control Support System (SCCSS) was once again employed. It enables robust Command and Control capability of all strategic assets with round the clock situational awareness in a digitized network centric environment to decision makers at National Command Centre (NCC). The system has the added capability of real time remote monitoring of missile flight path. The test consolidates and strengthens Pakistan&#8217;s deterrence capability and National security.
> 
> The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President, Prime Minister of Pakistan and Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.





Safriz said:


> Integration of Beidou is now confirmed..
> Only Beidou has two way communication capability....Making it possible for the missile to continuously transmit its position for commanders..On demand..


I might have missed this. I know the integration of BEIDOU but what in this news confirms its integration?
i mean, its not said in this report or have a missed? can you please point out.

However, whether reported today or not, PA Babur Cruise Missile is linked via Beidou and we have read and heard about the agreement earlier.


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## Hyde

congratulations Pakistan 

I hope there are some improvements in the latest test of Babur


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Can't it be used for "buddy" etc etc?



Not in my dictionary, *Khan Sahib* ! I'd call my most loved one as such not my buddy. Tell you what the next time you talk to your Dad call him 'Merei Janeman' and see how he responds.


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## Tehmasib

here come the real pic of babur with como painting.....Maj Gen noted please

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## Safriz

TERCOM...comparison oc change in altitude..
DSMAC..Actual scene matching






Thats why Tercom maps arent detailed as one type of data is requires..But DSMAC are actual pictures and for that reason detailed and need more computational power on board the missile..


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## Safriz

Now taht Pakistan has a very Flexible Missile,unlike Ballistic missiles..Many variants can be made same as there are many variants of Tomahawk,in pretty much every role for a missile.


AGM-109H/L Medium Range Air to Surface Missile (MRASM) - a *shorter range*, turbojet powered ASM with bomblet munitions; never entered service.
BGM-109A Tomahawk Land Attack Missile - Nuclear (TLAM-A) with a W80 *nuclear* warhead.
BGM-109C Tomahawk Land Attack Missile - *Conventional* (TLAM-C) with a unitary warhead.
BGM-109D Tomahawk Land Attack Missile - *Dispenser* (TLAM-D) with submunitions.
RGM/UGM-109B Tomahawk Anti Ship Missile (TASM) - *radar guided anti-shipping* variant.


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## Arsalan

Many people are talking about future Naval Version of Babur Cruise missile. Where i personally was always of view that a naval version, whenever it comes will be a submarine launched version and not surface launched system. This was bases on the fact that out surface combatants are of light to medium class and not conventionally know for land attack roles.
Land attack cruise missiles suites with heavier frigates and even better with destroyers!

However, all said, here is an interesting comparison:

*C-802 Anti-Ship Missiles*
PN Surface Warship fleet carry C-802/803 in anti ship role. The Dimension of this missile are:
*Weight * 715 kg
*Length* 6.392 m
*Diameter* 36 cm

*Babur Cruise Missile*
*Weight * 1200Kg appx (payload >300 kg)
*Length * 6.25 m (7 m with booster)
*Diameter * 52 cm

Now considering that C-802 are usually carried in a quad-canister assembly where four missiles are carried like:





and the multi-tube cruise missile that we have been testing is a three tube assembly:





so *may be we can replace *the C-802 four missile assembly (weighing 4 x 715kg = 2860Kg appx) with a three missile assembly of Babur (1200 x 3 = 3600 Kg) 
Just a case of MAY BE!! I don't see these being fired from C-802 like canisters. Will perhaps require heavier vessels with more displacement (at least in 4000 appx class) to incorporate a VLS system to fire Land Attack Cruise missile Babur from surface vessel.
So again, i personally think that the Naval version will be a submarine launched missile!

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## The Deterrent

^ Interesting thoughts indeed. Definitely the priority is of the SLCM version.

Here, it should be noted that the C-802 has the diameter of 36 cm, not its canister. Its canister is larger because of the folded fins. So, if it is large enough to accommodate Babur CM...well, why not?
But the problem is that the launch system has to be vertical or VLS-based, since Babur is launched vertically, unlike C-802 or YJ-82.


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## regular

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan test fired Babur cruise missile today, which is a step closer to Navel version.
> 
> We are about ready with the Navel version of Babur.



Yes its the cruise missile launched through the Augusta B subz..... they were testing it through ddep under waters....and to tell U the truth I seen all these testing in my dream....and the next day I seen it on the newspaper....Alhamdolillah!!!....isn't it strange???

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## Arsalan

regular said:


> Yes its the cruise missile launched through the Augusta B subz..... they were testing it through ddep under waters....and to tell U the truth I seen all these testing in my dream....and the next day I seen it on the newspaper....Alhamdolillah!!!....isn't it strange???


*It was a ground launch of the Army's version of Babur Land Attack Cruise missile!*

We may be nearing the naval version but it was NOT THE NAVAL VERSION!
Hopefully, we will get it soon.

The establishment of Naval Strategic Force Command&#8206; points in this direction. Pakistan is willing and working to complete its Nuclear Triad and Land Attack Cruise missiles, able to be launched from naval assets will be an important component.

regards!

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## Arsalan

A future prospect for Pakistan's Cruise Missiles, UAV's and other guided systems!



> *Suparco set to get global navigation satellite system*
> KARACHI, Sept 25: Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (Suparco) is in the process of acquiring the global navigation satellite system (GNSS) in collaboration with China, which will give a boost to its satellite communication technology.


Read more at: Suparco set to get global navigation satellite system | DAWN.COM

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## Safriz



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## Arsalan

*DEVELOPMENT IN SATELLITE NAVIGATION*

*GNSS to be functional by June 2013 *
ISLAMABAD, Oct 10 (APP): Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) acquired by Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO), with the assistance from China,will become functional by June 2013. GNSS is a set of navigation satellites orbiting around the earth and providing geo-spatial positioning service worldwide. The system allows a small electronic receiver to determine its location using time signals transmitted from these navigation satellites. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - GNSS to be functional by June 2013

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## Armstrong

Any new versions of Babur on the horizon ? Which is to say one with either greater ranges, speed or accuracy ?


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## Arsalan

Armstrong said:


> Any new versions of Babur on the horizon ? Which is to say one with either greater ranges, speed or accuracy ?



It is reported that they are working on a Naval Version (that most probably will be a submarine launched missile).
No news on increasing range but may come in future. The current Speed and Accuracy are also good enough so no news about any changes in that as well.

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## Bratva

LACM Babur in it's current configuration is possible to use against moving targets or only for fixed and stationary targets?

I think current weakness of our LACM and ALCM is their target capability against moving targets.

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## Nishan_101

Arsalan said:


> Many people are talking about future Naval Version of Babur Cruise missile. Where i personally was always of view that a naval version, whenever it comes will be a submarine launched version and not surface launched system. This was bases on the fact that out surface combatants are of light to medium class and not conventionally know for land attack roles.
> Land attack cruise missiles suites with heavier frigates and even better with destroyers!
> 
> However, all said, here is an interesting comparison:
> 
> *C-802 Anti-Ship Missiles*
> PN Surface Warship fleet carry C-802/803 in anti ship role. The Dimension of this missile are:
> *Weight * 715 kg
> *Length* 6.392 m
> *Diameter* 36 cm
> 
> *Babur Cruise Missile*
> *Weight * 1200Kg appx (payload >300 kg)
> *Length * 6.25 m (7 m with booster)
> *Diameter * 52 cm
> 
> Now considering that C-802 are usually carried in a quad-canister assembly where four missiles are carried like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the multi-tube cruise missile that we have been testing is a three tube assembly:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so *may be we can replace *the C-802 four missile assembly (weighing 4 x 715kg = 2860Kg appx) with a three missile assembly of Babur (1200 x 3 = 3600 Kg)
> Just a case of MAY BE!! I don't see these being fired from C-802 like canisters. Will perhaps require heavier vessels with more displacement (at least in 4000 appx class) to incorporate a VLS system to fire Land Attack Cruise missile Babur from surface vessel.
> So again, i personally think that the Naval version will be a submarine launched missile!



It will going to be fitted on the new F-22P Block-IIs and may be 7 of these in VLS form...

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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> It will going to be fitted on the new F-22P Block-IIs and may be 7 of these in VLS form...


and where are the so called PN F-22p Block-II???
PLEASE do not speculate about things that are not even being discussed seriously in the military circles!!! We will talk about the numbers that the frigates will/can carry only once we are confirmed that we are going for these frigates!!

regards!

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## Nishan_101

Arsalan said:


> and where are the so called PN F-22p Block-II???
> PLEASE do not speculate about things that are not even being discussed seriously in the military circles!!! We will talk about the numbers that the frigates will/can carry only once we are confirmed that we are going for these frigates!!
> 
> regards!



Thank you for that. Brother, we have heard that PN will going to procure another batch of at least 4 F-22Ps that will have some latest modifications being available to PN from the market(Most probably Chinese). So I and other also consider that it will carry some Babur Naval Version that is supposed to be developed or in development.

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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> Thank you for that. Brother, we have heard that PN will going to procure another batch of at least 4 F-22Ps that will have some latest modifications being available to PN from the market(Most probably Chinese). So I and other also consider that it will carry some Babur Naval Version that is supposed to be developed or in development.



Thanks for understanding but dear it was something that we just HEARD. Alongside these modified F-22 rumor was a report of PN going for 6 Qing Class Submarines. However, nothing have happened, in fact nothing have even been inked in this regard.
By the looks of it, it seem that that deal have gone cold, at least for now. We can only say what these systems will carry and in what numbers only once these systems are confirmed in first place.
Also the reported underdevelopment naval version of the cruise missile is said to be a submarine launch missile.

Best regards!

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## GEMINI

I have a question, is it possible to use an anti radiation seeker for the terminal phase? Just thinking of carrying SEAD missions using Babur. or may be even in the anti shipping role.


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## Arsalan

raja fawad said:


> I have a question, is it possible to use an anti radiation seeker for the terminal phase? Just thinking of carrying SEAD missions using Babur. or may be even in the anti shipping role.


Technically, Yes!
Babur is a highly maneuverable cruise missile, when fitted with a radiation seekers in nose, can act as SEAD missile. Logically, we might never see this happening as we have other weapon systems to do the SEAD job!


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## GEMINI

Arsalan said:


> Technically, Yes!
> Babur is a highly maneuverable cruise missile, when fitted with a radiation seekers in nose, can act as SEAD missile. Logically, we might never see this happening as we have other weapon systems to do the SEAD job!



Well thanks for the reply. The only advantage i was thinking of with this is higher range and payload. You did not say anything regarding the anti shipping role. Is not it possible to use the same seeker to lock on to a ship's radar in terminal phase.


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## Arsalan

raja fawad said:


> Well thanks for the reply. The only advantage i was thinking of with this is higher range and payload. You did not say anything regarding the anti shipping role. Is not it possible to use the same seeker to lock on to a ship's radar in terminal phase.


not good for anti ship role dear. Most of world know anti-ship missiles go Super Sonic in terminal stage, the fall down to just 2-5meter above sea level, are extremely highly maneuverable to avoid anti missile systems. 
Babur is not meant to be used in this role!
If you ask, can Babur hit a ship in the sea, yes it can, with its high degree of precession. But can it do this successfully all the time with all the anti-missile defense systems installed on the battle ships, perhaps no!!

regards!

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## IceCold

The role of babur i presume would be both strategic and but more importantly to hit enemy installations deep within India. The difference here between a ballistic missile and a cruise would be stealth to avoid anti ballistic shield. My question is inorder to hit areas that deep, Babur should have a range of at least 2000+ kms? The ideal would be that of a TomaHawk. 
Because otherwise a ballistic missile is going to be used to strike deep within India which possess risk of its own, specially a possible risk of being misunderstood as a nuclear attack, leading to a nuclear exchange.

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## Safriz

IceCold said:


> The role of babur i presume would be both strategic and but more importantly to hit enemy installations deep within India. The difference here between a ballistic missile and a cruise would be stealth to avoid anti ballistic shield. My question is inorder to hit areas that deep, Babur should have a range of at least 2000+ kms? The ideal would be that of a TomaHawk.
> Because otherwise a ballistic missile is going to be used to strike deep within India which possess risk of its own, specially a possible risk of being misunderstood as a nuclear attack, leading to a nuclear exchange.



Babur being an "aircraft like" turbo fan engine....will only need more or better fuel to fly greater distance...


Just for arguments sake lets compare 2500 Km range Tomahawk and 700 Km range Babur

Tomahawk : Wingspan 2.67 m
Babur : Wingspan	2.67 m

Tomahawk : Weight 1,300 kg (Without Booster Rocket)
Babur : Weight	1,500 kg (Probably with Booster Rocket)

Tomahawk :Length 5.56 m
Babur :Length	6.25 m 

All perimeters are the same of Babur and Tomahawk..and i honestly doubt that Babur has only 700 KM range....

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## Safriz



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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> All perimeters are the same of Babur and Tomahawk..and i honestly doubt that Babur has only 700 KM range....



The difference lies in both an efficient engine and better fuel.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> The difference lies in both an efficient engine and better fuel.



These small engines of around 1000KG thrust are very easy to source and freely available in international market..


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## Arsalan

AhaseebA said:


> The difference lies in both an efficient engine and better fuel.





Safriz said:


> These small engines of around 1000KG thrust are very easy to source and freely available in international market..



Babur is not fitted with a 1000Kg Thrust engine. *The Babur Cruise missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 *
The engine comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.

About fuel, The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground at time of launch/lift-off. *This is a Solid Fuel Booster Rocket. *
After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. *Babur have a Liquid Fuel Jet Engine.*

for more:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...abur-cruise-missile-database.html#post3023390

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## Gessler

Arsalan said:


> Babur is not fitted with a 1000Kg Thrust engine. *The Babur Cruise missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 *
> The engine comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.
> 
> About fuel, The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground at time of launch/lift-off. *This is a Solid Fuel Booster Rocket. *
> After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. *Babur have a Liquid Fuel Jet Engine.*
> 
> for more:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...abur-cruise-missile-database.html#post3023390



Who developed this engine and where is it currently produced in pakistan?


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## Thorough Pro

May be actual range is classified and 700 km is just for the public consumption.



Safriz said:


>


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## Safriz

Arsalan said:


> Babur is not fitted with a 1000Kg Thrust engine. *The Babur Cruise missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 *
> The engine comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.
> 
> About fuel, The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground at time of launch/lift-off. *This is a Solid Fuel Booster Rocket. *
> After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. *Babur have a Liquid Fuel Jet Engine.*
> 
> for more:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...abur-cruise-missile-database.html#post3023390



hi,
can you specify the exact or speculated model number of the engine?
Engines of this size and capacity,and bigger,all the way to 1 ton of thrust are very cheap and abundantly available off the shelf.
Why do you think the range is limoted to just 700KM?
Thanks


----------



## v9s

gessler said:


> Who developed this engine and where is it currently produced in pakistan?



It's a chinese engine. Oscar can give you more info.


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## Safriz

gessler said:


> Who developed this engine and where is it currently produced in pakistan?



You dont need to develop these small engines..Engines of this size are available off the shelf


----------



## Gessler

Safriz said:


> You dont need to develop these small engines..Engines of this size are available off the shelf



Much larger engine the likes of AL-31FP are also available off the shelf but thats not my point, I wanted
to know the origin of this engine and where its license-production line is located in pakistan.

I think v9sabove gave me what I wanted
to know alright.


----------



## Bossman

gessler said:


> to know the origin of this engine and where its license-production line is located in pakistan.



In Pakistan we don't worry about licenses too much, we buy, steal or beg for the technology and then we simply produce what we can. Pakistan has a fairly large military industrial complex and the production facilities could be anywhere. NESCOM's facilities at Fateh Jang or Taxila or AERO's facilties at Hassanabdal or PAC facilties at Kamra or Suparco's facilites in Karachi etc etc. Go figure it out. Google Earth can be useful. Also check the engines used by T37s which Pakistan has be flying for more than 50 years.

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## Arsalan

Safriz said:


> hi,
> can you specify the exact or speculated model number of the engine?
> Engines of this size and capacity,and bigger,all the way to 1 ton of thrust are very cheap and abundantly available off the shelf.
> Why do you think the range is limoted to just 700KM?
> Thanks


sorry, i cant. The above provided data is all collected from various sources and then i got it verified from two different persons from the field. Never got to discuss these details about engine. Will see if i can catch them again and get to know this.
However, it is of Chinese origin and as far as i got from my discussion, it is being locally produced now.

regards!


----------



## Safriz

Arsalan said:


> sorry, i cant. The above provided data is all collected from various sources and then i got it verified from two different persons from the field. Never got to discuss these details about engine. Will see if i can catch them again and get to know this.
> However, it is of Chinese origin and as far as i got from my discussion, it is being locally produced now.
> 
> regards!



At zouhai air show there were many small engines on display,so yes that is highly plausible.
Saying that,there is always a chance of using an improved engine and increasing the range.


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## Safriz



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## A.Rafay

Safriz said:


>



RAAD only have 350 KM range?? Not more?


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## Safriz

A.Rafay said:


> RAAD only have 350 KM range?? Not more?



look at the warhead size

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## farhan_9909

Safriz said:


>



really?Raa'd can take upto 1 ton warhead?


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## Dr. Strangelove

farhan_9909 said:


> really?Raa'd can take upto 1 ton warhead?


----------



## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> look at the warhead size



Misreporting, nothing else.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> Misreporting, nothing else.



Looks like it...
1 ton warhead for such a small missile..

Any info on the actual or more realistic warhead size?


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Looks like it...
> 1 ton warhead for such a small missile..
> 
> Any info on the actual or more realistic warhead size?



Same of that of Babur's, i.e. 450 kg.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> Same of that of Babur's, i.e. 450 kg.



I thought it should be more,due to air launch and shorter range.
But then its a much smaller missile...


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> I thought it should be more,due to air launch and shorter range.



The shorter range is because of the smaller length (size) and hence lesser fuel carrying capacity.


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## Safriz

We had a little discussion about Babur SLCM possibility for being launched from Agosta-Khalid class submarines out of existing 21 inch torpedo tubes..
here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-acquire-these-kinds-subs-6.html#post3698816

Please continue the discussion here...
@Penguin came up with the issue of canister launch..
There is enough evidence of Tomahawk (same dimensions as babur) being launched from standard 21 inch Torpedo tubes..But how tube launcvh system can be incorporated without increasing the requirement for Torpedo tube size..
@farhan_9909 mentioned that a later version of Kahlid class sub has the larger 26.5 inch torpedo tube.

what are the chances of Khalid class submarine firing Babur missile...Mention technical problems and solutions.


----------



## Penguin

Safriz said:


> We had a little discussion about Babur SLCM possibility for being launched from Agosta-Khalid class submarines out of existing 21 inch torpedo tubes..
> here
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-acquire-these-kinds-subs-6.html#post3698816
> 
> Please continue the discussion here...
> @Penguin came up with the issue of canister launch..
> There is enough evidence of Tomahawk (same dimensions as babur) being launched from standard 21 inch Torpedo tubes..But how tube launcvh system can be incorporated without increasing the requirement for Torpedo tube size..
> @farhan_9909 mentioned that a later version of Kahlid class sub has the larger 26.5 inch torpedo tube.
> 
> what are the chances of Khalid class submarine firing Babur missile...Mention technical problems and solutions.





> The Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles.


SSK Agosta 90B Class Submarine - Naval Technology

So in principal it can carry 16 Babur's (if no other weapons - such as SM39 Exocet, UGM-84 Harpoon, ECAN F17 mod 2 wireguided torpedo are carried). Realistically, they would carry 4-8 AShM, 0-4 Babur LACM, 8 dual role (ASuW/ASW) torpedoes.


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## Safriz

^^ Obviously such small numbers cannot contribute much to second strike capability


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## farhan_9909

4 Babur SLCM is pretty good..even the dolphin class submarine of israel navy has only 4 torpedo tubes of 655mm diameter

If each Babur can carry upto 450kg warhead(nuclear warhead equivalent of 30-35kt tnt)..this can bring one hell alot of destruction.i mean the nuclear warhead of Babur must be of plutonium.

the one used on japan was just 20-22kt equivalent of tnt


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## Safriz

Babur can be installed on surface ships without problem.
So chances are that Pakistan's second strike capability is distributed among ships and subs


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## farhan_9909

Canister launch of Babur

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## Safriz

farhan_9909 said:


> Canister launch of Babur



What would be the diameter of this canister?
Can it be inserted into Augosta Torpedo tubes?


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## Riz

sub version of Babur has already been tested from agosta 90b with the range on 2500 NM almost 2 years ago, please dont aske me the source............


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## Safriz

riz1978 said:


> sub version of Babur has already been tested from agosta 90b with the range on 2500 NM almost 2 years ago, please dont aske me the source............



My friend 2500 Nautical mile is 4600 kilometers.
Are you sure about the range you mention?


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> What would be the diameter of this canister?
> Can it be inserted *into* Augosta Torpedo tubes?



No! It is way too big! I think you meant "instead" of one or two torpedo tubes.
Besides it is just a test launch tube, developed as a part of development of GLCM's MLV launcher. For the SLCM, it is the capsule which is the complex part.




riz1978 said:


> sub version of Babur has already been tested from agosta 90b with the range on 2500 NM almost 2 years ago, please dont aske me the source............




You are exaggerating the range, way too much. Most probably you put a extra zero.


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## Riz

Safriz said:


> My friend 2500 Nautical mile is 4600 kilometers.
> Are you sure about the range you mention?



sorry dear it was not NM it was Km. around 1500 NM


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## Penguin

Safriz said:


> ^^ Obviously such small numbers cannot contribute much to second strike capability



5 SSKs x 4 missiles = 20 nukes. Even if you keep 1 boat in port and 1 in transit, you still have 12 nukes at sea. That is somewhat equivalent to 1 Arihant with 12 x K15 SLBM (3 in each launch tube) or 3 Arhiants with 4 x K-4 SLBM each.

That would give me a headache... if I were on the receiving end.



Safriz said:


> Babur can be installed on surface ships without problem.
> So chances are that Pakistan's second strike capability is distributed among ships and subs



Where on a Type 21 or F22P would you put Babur, considering their current armaments and the size (length, notably) of the Babur? And, as has been pointed out, what is the point of putting them on surface vessels, which are more vulnerable and less stealthy than subs and - in case of Pakistan - vastly outnumbered by the principal foe?

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## The Deterrent

Penguin said:


> Where on a Type 21 or F22P would you put Babur, considering their current armaments and the size (length, notably) of the Babur? And, as has been pointed out, what is the point of putting them on surface vessels, which are more vulnerable and less stealthy than subs and - in case of Pakistan - vastly outnumbered by the principal foe?



Exactly, PN does not possesses Destroyers aboard which we can have VLS based Babur LACMs. Entrusting the nuclear capability to any surface vessel wouldn't be something advisable.


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## Safriz

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-class-attack-submarine-information-pool.html

this thread has some interesting info..
Khalid class can fire Babur through Torpedo tubes.


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## Safriz

Bcak to Babur Cruise missile..

I want some Brain storming on something i noticed 

Why Babur is shown in 3 or 4 different types of Vehicles?
What in your Opinion is the purpose of these...

A






B






*c*






D





E

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> A



Inclined Rail-assisted test platform. Developed for initial testing, when the booster wasn't mature enough to rapidly turn the missile in the required direction.




> *C*



Thought to be a transporter vehicle for missile reloads. May be a concept design for a vertical quadruple-missile launcher (dropped later on, if there was any). 



> D



Tube-launched vertical test platform. Later developed into the triple MLV.



> B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E



Both B and E are same vehicles, i.e. the triple Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV), incorporating canisterized vertical launcher. Most probably the ultimate development of the GLCM launcher.

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## Safriz

'D' looks like vertical launch for navy.


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> 'D' looks like vertical launch for navy.



I don't think it was anything more than just a testing platform. Besides, it was utilized in one test only. If PN plans to induct Babur LACM on future vessels, a modified form of the MLV launcher (*B* & *E*) will be used most probably, as it is the evolution of the *D* platform.

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## Safriz

About *"C"* the H.Khan of Pakdef was saying its not a container..Its actual Launcher and the sides were removed for display purposes,as the picture is from a Public display..


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> About *"C"* the H.Khan of Pakdef was saying its not a container..Its actual Launcher and the sides were removed for display purposes,as the picture is from a Public display..



Yes, also in the 2007 Military Parade of 23rd March, when this Babur CM vehicle passed by, the person was who was describing the systems described it as a launcher.
My opinion is that it might be an initial concept, which was not materialized. Also, you cannot see any tubular and strengthened structure inside the quad-launcher. Furthermore, the TEL was also not very rugged looking, with any exhaust mechanism for the missile being launched.
IMO four missiles on one launch vehicle are way too much. One air-strike and we can lose a huge amount of valuable assets (if fully loaded).


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> Yes, also in the 2007 Military Parade of 23rd March, when this Babur CM vehicle passed by, the person was who was describing the systems described it as a launcher.
> My opinion is that it might be an initial concept, which was not materialized. Also, you cannot see any tubular and strengthened structure inside the quad-launcher. Furthermore, the TEL was also not very rugged looking, with any exhaust mechanism for the missile being launched.
> IMO four missiles on one launch vehicle are way too much. One air-strike and we can lose a huge amount of valuable assets (if fully loaded).



Although Tomahawk had a lancher with 4 missiles...but yes countries can have different doctrines..

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## Dr. Strangelove

Safriz said:


> Although Tomahawk had a lancher with 4 missiles...but yes countries can have different doctrines..



doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they



Safriz said:


> Although Tomahawk had a lancher with 4 missiles...but yes countries can have different doctrines..



doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they



Safriz said:


> Although Tomahawk had a lancher with 4 missiles...but yes countries can have different doctrines..



doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Although Tomahawk had a lancher with 4 missiles...but yes countries can have different doctrines..


Agreed, I was referring to Pakistani doctrine. We don't have that much funds to manufacture a lot of units for conventional role.


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## Safriz

wasm95 said:


> doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they
> 
> 
> 
> doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they
> 
> 
> 
> doesnt look like americans or britishers who are they



May be some arab soldier?
Many tomahawks were used in middle east during gulf wars.


----------



## alexx12lucyy

his is not for debate and arguments but an effort to concise information under one thread. any information related to missile,

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## Safriz

Must have been posted before..

[video]http://www.reuters.com/resources_v2/flash/video_embed.swf?videoId=237793694&edition=BETAUS'[/video]


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## Safriz



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## Safriz

Any news of submarine launch capability?


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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> Any news of submarine launch capability?



Slow progress in this regard due to funding cuts.


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Must have been posted before..
> 
> [video]http://www.reuters.com/resources_v2/flash/video_embed.swf?videoId=237793694&edition=BETAUS'[/video]


It is a new video I guess...

*Babur Missile Launch Vehicle's missile hatches:*

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## Arsalan

AhaseebA said:


> Yes, also in the 2007 Military Parade of 23rd March, when this Babur CM vehicle passed by, the person was who was describing the systems described it as a launcher.
> My opinion is that it might be an initial concept, which was not materialized. Also, you cannot see any tubular and strengthened structure inside the quad-launcher. Furthermore, the TEL was also not very rugged looking, with any exhaust mechanism for the missile being launched.
> IMO four missiles on one launch vehicle are way too much. One air-strike and we can lose a huge amount of valuable assets (if fully loaded).



PA is using Babur with three Tube Launch system. This motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle. The TEL has a length of 13.36 meters, width of 3.02 meters, maximum road speed of 55kph, unrefueled range of 650km, and is powered by a 600hp Deutsch diesel engine with all four axles driven. There is a separate 10kW electrical generator to power the missiles pre-launch operations and two hydraulic pumps to raise the missile canisters to their launch positions before launch. The TEL is supported by four hydraulic jacks during the missile launch.











This is just a transport vehicle, able to carry four missiles. This is not a launcher.




As per my information, it started as it is and this is what it was meant to be from very start, a carried vehicle for refurbishment in field. never intended to be a launch platform.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...abur-cruise-missile-database.html#post3023390

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## The Deterrent

^ Thats correct indeed.


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## diabolic_67

A lot of claim. But we cannot ask you to identify the source? Do you know the dia of Agosta 90B tubes? Do you know the dia of the above canister? I salute of patriotism, but lets keep discussions realistic and not based on rumor and bluff.

Please look into details of Submarine procurements from China, and the potential weapon fit. That may answer your curiosity.



mafiya said:


> Slow progress in this regard due to funding cuts.


----------



## The Deterrent

diabolic_67 said:


> A lot of claim. But we cannot ask you to identify the source? Do you know the dia of Agosta 90B tubes? Do you know the dia of the above canister? I salute of patriotism, but lets keep discussions realistic and not based on rumor and bluff.
> 
> Please look into details of Submarine procurements from China, and the potential weapon fit. That may answer your curiosity.



The dia of Agosta torpedo tubes is 533mm, and the above mentioned canister has nothing to do with SLCM version of Babur. That canister was tested as a stand-alone launcher first and later developed into the multi-tube launcher. Babur SLCM will be fired via Agostas' torpedo tubes.


----------



## Kompromat

@Yzd Khalifa

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## Yzd Khalifa

Aeronaut said:


> @Yzd Khalifa



That's why I'm so proud of

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## Desert Fox

Aeronaut said:


> @Yzd Khalifa



Interesting. Nasr is said to be very maneuverable as well making it difficult to intercept by ABM systems. How come Nasr cannot be launched vertically?

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## Kompromat

Desert Fox said:


> Interesting. Nasr is said to be very maneuverable as well making it difficult to intercept by ABM systems. How come Nasr cannot be launched vertically?



Angular launch does the job for battlefield ballistic missiles.

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

babur rockzzz ...... indian shockzzz ....

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## rockstar08

i love this missile

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## farhan_9909

Babur Cruise Missile Inside the Lab.

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## Kompromat

Its C-802 not Babur.


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## farhan_9909

Aeronaut said:


> Its C-802 not Babur.



But what are they doing with the missile in the lab?

the engineers loooks like Pakistanis


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## Kompromat

farhan_9909 said:


> But what are they doing with the missile in the lab?
> 
> the engineers loooks like Pakistanis



I think, this picture was taken in some university lab, now what are they doing with the missile is a question im not interested in asking

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## The Deterrent

Aeronaut said:


> I think, this picture was taken in some university lab, now what are they doing with the missile is a question im not interested in asking



This is not a university lab, rather a lab somewhere in the "organizations" . Note that there are two persons in military uniform, a very old desktop (  ). From all the wires that are attached to what could be the guidance system and the seeker, it can be assumed that the system is being tested for validation of some parameters. Probably something is being simulated or simple testing of a stored unit which is conducted from time to time.

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## ARSENAL6

I was thinking of the Chassis that the Missles will be carried and what improvement can be made

1)
ETF Mining Trucks MT-240 full turning circle - YouTube



> ETF developed a unique steering system. All wheels are steered at low to medium speeds reducing tyre wear, while at higher speeds the last two axle lines gradually change to nearly rigid resulting in better stability. ETF trucks are equipped with a special speed-proportional steering system. At very low speeds, such as when spotting the loader, the system requires only two turns from lock to lock. The whole system works automatically without interference from the operator..



ETF Mining Trucks MT-240 extreme suspension travel - YouTube



2)make it amphibious :

World Defence News: April 2011

to enable to do river a launch and make it all terrian ie Mountainous deserts able to lauch anywhere 


3) Have a better AIr defense against AIrcraft

4) Stealth and camouflage see video below: 

Invisible Tank - Chameleon Tank &#39;changes shape&#39;, invisible to infrared - YouTube



5) This next one is a very long shot to the point of fantasy but then most fantasy stuff are becoming to a reality so why not. Able to launch missiles while the truck is at speed of 100 miles/hour 

Having all these things will make Pakistan the first country in the world to build a missile carrier chassis that can launch Babur cruise missiles anywhere, undetected AND whilst moving fast.


----------



## Introvert

Does PN have any plans to develop supersonic cruise missile.


----------



## shaheenmissile

Aeronaut said:


> I think, this picture was taken in some university lab, now what are they doing with the missile is a question im not interested in asking


picture is from Bangladesh navy


----------



## LonE_WolF

iforce said:


> Pakistan should welcome Middle Eastern investment in their missile program.


Nishan_101 bro why u keep posting the same thing over nd over again? 
@Aeronaut


----------



## Kompromat



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## Rafi

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 36407
> View attachment 36408
> View attachment 36409



1,000 km range version, cannon - rumors about 1,500/2,000 range - next version, with new global positioning system and better engine coming online.

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## Basel

Our corrupt system is destroying every thing including military modernization.


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## monitor

shaheenmissile said:


> picture is from Bangladesh navy



No i just checked its a picture of Pakistan navy maintaining C-802.


----------



## fatman17



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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 37163


This one is taken at IDEAS right?
and who is this guy? you?


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> This one is taken at IDEAS right?
> and who is this guy? you?


 
yes at IDEAS and NO thats not me - i'm much older and you know what....


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> yes at IDEAS and NO thats not me - i'm much older and you know what....


 yes sir i have an idea.
Thank for sharing the picture

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## Informant

Basel said:


> Our corrupt system is destroying every thing including military modernization.



Regarding Military its the corrupt real estate gernails more like


----------



## Basel

Informant said:


> Regarding Military its the corrupt real estate gernails more like



Corruption is in all places in Pakistan, but Military is less corrupt because they at least put money where its is needed, not like politicians, bureaucrats and others who just suck every thing out of the country.


----------



## Informant

Basel said:


> Corruption is in all places in Pakistan, but Military is less corrupt because they at least put money where its is needed, not like politicians, bureaucrats and others who just suck every thing out of the country.



Baat to sahi hai jaani Army ke jarnail kam nahin chuuste. Seriously. Go to Pindi and see their movements. So much wastage, they are no better than politicians. Gernail bankay ihsaan nahin kia mujhe pe. Mere tax ka paisa porra karta hai in sab manhuuson ke akhrajaat woh bhi najaaiz. Niray sharaabi kabaabi all these generals and politiebureaus.


----------



## Basel

Informant said:


> Baat to sahi hai jaani Army ke jarnail kam nahin chuuste. Seriously. Go to Pindi and see their movements. So much wastage, they are no better than politicians. Gernail bankay ihsaan nahin kia mujhe pe. Mere tax ka paisa porra karta hai in sab manhuuson ke akhrajaat woh bhi najaaiz. Niray sharaabi kabaabi all these generals and politiebureaus.



The sad problem in Pakistan is that whole nation is ready to do corruption if they had opportunity and those who oppose it and implement true honesty mostly called stupid. Also corruption and honesty talk in our society is like sugar coated chocolate in which one only find chocolate after going through sugar, here sugar is honesty talk in society & chocolate is corruption.


----------



## shaheenmissile

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 37163



Did somebody notice the modules?


----------



## Slav Defence

Arsalan said:


> Inspired by JF-17 Information pool by ANTIBODY, this is my effort to compile all available useful data on Pakistan's LACM Babur.
> This is not for debate and arguments but an effort to concise information under one thread. any information related to missile, of the systems that it works on, such as the engine, the design characteristics, guidance systems etc is welcomed.
> 
> A cruise missile is a guided missile able to carry heavy warhead payload to long distances (Beyond the reach of stand-off bombs). Usually powered by a jet engine, these are able to fly at non-ballistic trajectory, under the radar range and able to carry out a pin point strike of targets.
> 
> *Babur Cruise Missile*
> In August 2005 Pakistan carried out test of its first cruise missile, named Babur (Hatf VII). Babur is the first ever cruise missile, designed and developed by Pakistani scientist mainly from NESCOM and is able to carry around 450 Kg conventional or nuclear (10 to 30kT) payloads. The first test was of 500 Km range from but a newer version was available in 2007 with an extended range of 700Km. The missile was launched from a land based transporter erector launcher (TEL) and now a multi tube launcher is also available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Babur is described as a subsonic, low-level terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance system and a high degree of maneuverability. The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system. It is a highly effective and trustworthy weapon due to its extraordinary characteristics.
> 
> With the capability of designing and developing Babur cruise missile Pakistan has joined an exclusive group of ten countries that operate cruise missiles, and an even more exclusive group of countries that can develop and manufacture them.
> 
> *Design:*
> Babur Missile has a tubular shaped fuselage with a pair of folded wings attached to the middle section and Tail assembly at the rear along with the propulsion system. It is propelled by a Turbo fan engine and has a maximum speed of approximately 880 Km/h (high sub-sonic speed). The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground. After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. The air inlet also pops out after launch.
> 
> The missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.
> 
> The missile has a high degree of maneuverability and terrain hugging capability, allowing it to "hug" the terrain. Terrain hugging ability helps the missile avoid enemy radar detection by utilizing "terrain masking", giving Babur the capability to penetrate enemy air defense systems undetected and survive until reaching the target. The design is also said to possess stealth features making it difficult for enemy radar to detect and track the missile. Since RAM paint coating is not known to exist with Pakistan Defense forces, it may be assumed that the stealth features refer to use of composites in main fuselage reducing the radar signature. Moreover most of this Stealth Capability is attributed to the low level terrain hugging flight parameter. The capabilities can be matched to American forces Tomahawk Missiles.
> 
> *Guidance:*
> The Babur's guidance system uses a combination of inertial navigation systems, terrain contour matching (TERCOM), Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) and GPS satellite guidance
> 
> It is steered by an inertial navigation system (INS). INS measures every movement of the missile and every change of speed, constantly calculating the missiles position. It enables the missile to know where it is compared to its launch position all the time, enabling the mission computer to steer the missile to the designated target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The basic components of an inertial guidance system are gyroscopes, accelerometers, and a computer. The gyroscopes provide fixed reference directions or turning rate measurements, and accelerometers measure changes in the velocity of the system. The computer processes information on changes in direction and acceleration and feeds its results to the vehicles navigation system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Babur is also equipped with Terrain Contour Matching or TERCOM system to further increase the accuracy. TERCOM is an automated navigation system used primarily by an unmanned aerial vehicle such as a long-range cruise missile. The system uses a predefined contour map of the flight path which acts as a comparison master image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The missile is equipped with a sophisticated radar altimeter which constantly reads the terrain it is crossing and compares the readings to the master image. When deviations are detected, the missile's guidance system makes the necessary corrections to its flight path. This makes extremely accurate navigation and collision avoidance possible. The high degree of accuracy possible in terms of exact altitude above all terrain profiles allows TERCOM-equipped missiles to maintain low altitude flight paths while avoiding obstacles. This ground hugging ability confounds enemy ground radar systems
> The missile also has a GPS guidance system.
> 
> *Launch Platform:*
> Babur was initially test fired from a single missile TEL but later on multiple tube launch system. The current launch platform is mobile three tube assembly mounted on truck. This motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle. The TEL has a length of 13.36 meters, width of 3.02 meters, maximum road speed of 55kph, unrefueled range of 650km, and is powered by a 600hp Deutsch diesel engine with all four axles driven. There is a separate 10kW electrical generator to power the missiles pre-launch operations and two hydraulic pumps to raise the missile canisters to their launch positions before launch. The TEL is supported by four hydraulic jacks during the missile launch.
> 
> 
> The missiles are transported on vehicle, carrying four missiles at a time. This is not a launch platform but just a transport vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *History and current Status:*
> Pakistan have publicly tested the Babur missile 7 times since its existence was announced
> 
> *August 12, 2005:* Pakistan first time successfully test fired Babur cruise missile with a range of 500 km
> *March 22, 2007:* upgraded version with extended range of 700 Km was test fired
> *July 26, 2007:* Test firing of same version
> *December 11, 2007:* Test firing of same version
> *May 6, 2009:* Test firing of same version
> *October 28, 2011:* First test firing from Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle
> *June 06, 2012:* Latest test, validating the Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle
> 
> The missile is in production with and is reportedly equipping the 23rd and 26th missile group of PA strategic force.
> 
> *Future:*
> It is reported that Pakistan is also working on more advanced variants of the missile with the range extended to 1000 km.
> Also a sea launched variant is under development and the French made Agosta submarines and/or the PN probable future QINQ submarines will carry this missile to give Pakistan a second strike capability.
> 
> *Specs:
> Designation:* Land Attack Cruise Missile, Medium Range Sub-Sonic Cruise missile
> *Status:* Operational
> *Length:* 7.2 meter (with booster)
> *Diameter:* 0.52 meters
> *Wing Span: * 2.67 meter
> *Weight:* 1500 Kg
> *Warhead: * 450Kg conventional, 10 to 35 kT nuclear
> *Speed:* 880Km/hr.
> *Propulsion: * Turbo Fan engine
> *Guidance:* GPS, INS, TERCOM, DSMAC
> 
> *Reference:*
> _Online defence security magazine industry military technology news exhibition world land forces*-*Army Recognition_
> _Army Technology_
> _Extrusion Deposition Systems | Emerging Technologies | Extrusion Coating | Automated Optical Inspection Systems| nTact_
> _www.warfare.ru_
> _Pakistan Defence_
> _Military Asia_
> *Written and Compiled by Arsalan Aslam
> 
> Babur Specs Chart {Edited by AERONAUT}
> 
> Babur - Transportable Land Attack Cruise Missile System*


23390, member: 11327"]Inspired by JF-17 Information pool by ANTIBODY, this is my effort to compile all available useful data on Pakistan's LACM Babur.
This is not for debate and arguments but an effort to concise information under one thread. any information related to missile, of the systems that it works on, such as the engine, the design characteristics, guidance systems etc is welcomed.

A cruise missile is a guided missile able to carry heavy warhead payload to long distances (Beyond the reach of stand-off bombs). Usually powered by a jet engine, these are able to fly at non-ballistic trajectory, under the radar range and able to carry out a pin point strike of targets.

*Babur Cruise Missile*
In August 2005 Pakistan carried out test of its first cruise missile, named Babur (Hatf VII). Babur is the first ever cruise missile, designed and developed by Pakistani scientist mainly from NESCOM and is able to carry around 450 Kg conventional or nuclear (10 to 30kT) payloads. The first test was of 500 Km range from but a newer version was available in 2007 with an extended range of 700Km. The missile was launched from a land based transporter erector launcher (TEL) and now a multi tube launcher is also available.


The Babur is described as a subsonic, low-level terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance system and a high degree of maneuverability. The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system. It is a highly effective and trustworthy weapon due to its extraordinary characteristics.

With the capability of designing and developing Babur cruise missile Pakistan has joined an exclusive group of ten countries that operate cruise missiles, and an even more exclusive group of countries that can develop and manufacture them.

*Design:*
Babur Missile has a tubular shaped fuselage with a pair of folded wings attached to the middle section and Tail assembly at the rear along with the propulsion system. It is propelled by a Turbo fan engine and has a maximum speed of approximately 880 Km/h (high sub-sonic speed). The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground. After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. The air inlet also pops out after launch.

The missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.

The missile has a high degree of maneuverability and terrain hugging capability, allowing it to "hug" the terrain. Terrain hugging ability helps the missile avoid enemy radar detection by utilizing "terrain masking", giving Babur the capability to penetrate enemy air defense systems undetected and survive until reaching the target. The design is also said to possess stealth features making it difficult for enemy radar to detect and track the missile. Since RAM paint coating is not known to exist with Pakistan Defense forces, it may be assumed that the stealth features refer to use of composites in main fuselage reducing the radar signature. Moreover most of this Stealth Capability is attributed to the low level terrain hugging flight parameter. The capabilities can be matched to American forces Tomahawk Missiles.

*Guidance:*
The Babur's guidance system uses a combination of inertial navigation systems, terrain contour matching (TERCOM), Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) and GPS satellite guidance

It is steered by an inertial navigation system (INS). INS measures every movement of the missile and every change of speed, constantly calculating the missiles position. It enables the missile to know where it is compared to its launch position all the time, enabling the mission computer to steer the missile to the designated target.




The basic components of an inertial guidance system are gyroscopes, accelerometers, and a computer. The gyroscopes provide fixed reference directions or turning rate measurements, and accelerometers measure changes in the velocity of the system. The computer processes information on changes in direction and acceleration and feeds its results to the vehicles navigation system.




Babur is also equipped with Terrain Contour Matching or TERCOM system to further increase the accuracy. TERCOM is an automated navigation system used primarily by an unmanned aerial vehicle such as a long-range cruise missile. The system uses a predefined contour map of the flight path which acts as a comparison master image.






The missile is equipped with a sophisticated radar altimeter which constantly reads the terrain it is crossing and compares the readings to the master image. When deviations are detected, the missile's guidance system makes the necessary corrections to its flight path. This makes extremely accurate navigation and collision avoidance possible. The high degree of accuracy possible in terms of exact altitude above all terrain profiles allows TERCOM-equipped missiles to maintain low altitude flight paths while avoiding obstacles. This ground hugging ability confounds enemy ground radar systems
The missile also has a GPS guidance system.

*Launch Platform:*
Babur was initially test fired from a single missile TEL but later on multiple tube launch system. The current launch platform is mobile three tube assembly mounted on truck. This motorized 8 x 8 transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) is reportedly a Chinese reverse-engineered variants of the Russian MAZ-543TLM vehicle. The TEL has a length of 13.36 meters, width of 3.02 meters, maximum road speed of 55kph, unrefueled range of 650km, and is powered by a 600hp Deutsch diesel engine with all four axles driven. There is a separate 10kW electrical generator to power the missiles pre-launch operations and two hydraulic pumps to raise the missile canisters to their launch positions before launch. The TEL is supported by four hydraulic jacks during the missile launch.





The missiles are transported on vehicle, carrying four missiles at a time. This is not a launch platform but just a transport vehicle.





*History and current Status:*
Pakistan have publicly tested the Babur missile 7 times since its existence was announced

*August 12, 2005:* Pakistan first time successfully test fired Babur cruise missile with a range of 500 km
*March 22, 2007:* upgraded version with extended range of 700 Km was test fired
*July 26, 2007:* Test firing of same version
*December 11, 2007:* Test firing of same version
*May 6, 2009:* Test firing of same version
*October 28, 2011:* First test firing from Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle
*June 06, 2012:* Latest test, validating the Multiple Tube Missile Launch Vehicle

The missile is in production with and is reportedly equipping the 23rd and 26th missile group of PA strategic force.

*Future:*
It is reported that Pakistan is also working on more advanced variants of the missile with the range extended to 1000 km.
Also a sea launched variant is under development and the French made Agosta submarines and/or the PN probable future QINQ submarines will carry this missile to give Pakistan a second strike capability.

*Specs:
Designation:* Land Attack Cruise Missile, Medium Range Sub-Sonic Cruise missile
*Status:* Operational
*Length:* 7.2 meter (with booster)
*Diameter:* 0.52 meters
*Wing Span: * 2.67 meter
*Weight:* 1500 Kg
*Warhead: * 450Kg conventional, 10 to 35 kT nuclear
*Speed:* 880Km/hr.
*Propulsion: * Turbo Fan engine
*Guidance:* GPS, INS, TERCOM, DSMAC

*Reference:*
_Online defence security magazine industry military technology news exhibition world land forces*-*Army Recognition_
_Army Technology_
_Extrusion Deposition Systems | Emerging Technologies | Extrusion Coating | Automated Optical Inspection Systems| nTact_
_www.warfare.ru_
_Pakistan Defence_
_Military Asia_
*Written and Compiled by Arsalan Aslam

Babur Specs Chart {Edited by AERONAUT}

Babur - Transportable Land Attack Cruise Missile System*[/quote]
It is a fantastic article arsalan.However,I request you to place citations,so that after slight modifications it can be uploaded to wiki pdf wiki page.
Regards

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## Mujahid Memon

why am i seeing "You have to like this post in order to see this link" all over the PDF ??


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## fatman17

Babur Cruise Missiles

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## shaheenmissile

^^^ This was just a mock up,for display purposes.


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## Malghani




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## kurup

Any video of launch from this canister ??


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## SQ8

kurup said:


> Any video of launch from this canister ??



Do a youtube search for this

"
*Babur Cruise Missile Hatf-VII successfully test fires - Made in Pakistan - February 10, 2011"*

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Oscar said:


> Do a youtube search for this
> 
> "
> *Babur Cruise Missile Hatf-VII successfully test fires - Made in Pakistan - February 10, 2011"*



So according to Dr Samar Mubarakmand, Babur can fly as low as 50 meters if we (meaning Pakistanis) want it to.

True? What's your take.


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## SQ8

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> So according to Dr Samar Mubarakmand, Babur can fly as low as 50 meters if we (meaning Pakistanis) want it to.
> 
> True? What's your take.



Yes it can if required. The guidance on the babur being able to do that was ready back in the late 90's early 2000's.

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## rockstar08

Rafi said:


> 1,000 km range version, cannon - rumors about 1,500/2,000 range - next version, with new global positioning system and better engine coming online.



there is nothing like that exist babur II or something , at least no official word so far


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## kinsr

I have a query, since BABUR uses TerCOM. It is the map data thats fed into the missile before launch. How does Pakistan have data of something 700kms inside Indian territory. Does pakistan posses a digital 3d map of India. And as far as I know even China doesnt have such high resolution satellite imagery so as to guide a cruise missile over India. Since this kind of map is not available, the efficacy of tercom seems doubtful. Can someone please enlighten me on this one,


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## farhan_9909

kinsr said:


> I have a query, since BABUR uses TerCOM. It is the map data thats fed into the missile before launch. How does Pakistan have data of something 700kms inside Indian territory. Does pakistan posses a digital 3d map of India. And as far as I know even China doesnt have such high resolution satellite imagery so as to guide a cruise missile over India. Since this kind of map is not available, the efficacy of tercom seems doubtful. Can someone please enlighten me on this one,



We now have access to beidou

Beidou Navigation Satellite System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## kurup

farhan_9909 said:


> We now have access to beidou
> 
> Beidou Navigation Satellite System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



How Beidou helps in TERCOM ??


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## kinsr

farhan_9909 said:


> We now have access to beidou
> 
> Beidou Navigation Satellite System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Bediou is more akin to GPS and nothing to do with tercom. 

By the way going through this whole thread I got to know that Pakistan has access to commercial level SAR images from various operators. But using that commercial level contour data will differ from military level resolution requirement and may be higher than 5m resolution. So how does the missile achieve a cep of ~2m.


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## Rafi

kinsr said:


> Bediou is more akin to GPS and nothing to do with tercom.
> 
> By the way going through this whole thread I got to know that Pakistan has access to commercial level SAR images from various operators. But using that commercial level contour data will differ from military level resolution requirement and may be higher than 5m resolution. So how does the missile achieve a cep of ~2m.



Classified, suffice to say Babur has the capability, no one will tell you on an open forum, believe it, or don't.

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## farhan_9909

kurup said:


> How Beidou helps in TERCOM ??





kinsr said:


> Bediou is more akin to GPS and nothing to do with tercom.
> 
> By the way going through this whole thread I got to know that Pakistan has access to commercial level SAR images from various operators. But using that commercial level contour data will differ from military level resolution requirement and may be higher than 5m resolution. So how does the missile achieve a cep of ~2m.



I don't know how beidou helps in tercom(Babur) but i do know Pakistan has military level access to beidou.


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## PakEye

kurup said:


> Any video of launch from this canister ??



Pakistan test fires Babur missile-Pakistan-World-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## Bratva

kinsr said:


> Bediou is more akin to GPS and nothing to do with tercom.
> 
> By the way going through this whole thread I got to know that Pakistan has access to commercial level SAR images from various operators. But using that commercial level contour data will differ from military level resolution requirement and may be higher than 5m resolution. So how does the missile achieve a cep of ~2m.





kurup said:


> How Beidou helps in TERCOM ??



The company claims that the GPS can provide positioning with accuracy of up to two centimeters. However, it adds that the accuracy can extend up to five millimeters after post-processing.

Pakistan becomes first country to deploy China’s BeiDou GPS network – The Express Tribune

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## razgriz19

kurup said:


> Any video of launch from this canister ??



Fired from a multiple tube launcher

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## kinsr

tercom, basically provides the terrain hugging feature to a cruise missile. The better the contour map, the more confident will be a cruise missile to fly close to the terrain. But since Pakistan doesnt have access to military grade terrain maps the ability of babur to fly closer to ground is somewhat restricted. So it wont be so stealthy after all if the missile will have to fly higher to avoid the terrain. Though I would agree about the accuracy wrt bediou and INS.


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## shaheenmissile

kinsr said:


> tercom, basically provides the terrain hugging feature to a cruise missile. The better the contour map, the more confident will be a cruise missile to fly close to the terrain. But since Pakistan doesnt have access to military grade terrain maps the ability of babur to fly closer to ground is somewhat restricted. So it wont be so stealthy after all if the missile will have to fly higher to avoid the terrain. Though I would agree about the accuracy wrt bediou and INS.


TERCOM is based around a radar altimeter and contour maps,rather than GPS.

Terrain Hugging capability can be derived from GPS/BEIDOU or any satellite navigation system,provided the positioning is accurate enough. It may be noted that in satellite positioning,any error in x-y axis or Lat,Long magnifies two folds in z axis or Altitude..
So for GPS/Beidou to Replace TERCOM, The Satellite signal should be continuous and very accurate,or the missile will bite the dust.



kinsr said:


> I have a query, since BABUR uses TerCOM. It is the map data thats fed into the missile before launch. How does Pakistan have data of something 700kms inside Indian territory. *Does pakistan posses a digital 3d map of India.* And as far as I know even China doesnt have such high resolution satellite imagery so as to guide a cruise missile over India. Since this kind of map is not available, the efficacy of tercom seems doubtful. Can someone please enlighten me on this one,



Yes. That Dirty work was done by SUPARCO using Commercially available satellite images/ Data,which is very accurate now.


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## kurup

farhan_9909 said:


> I don't know how beidou helps in tercom(Babur) but i do know Pakistan has military level access to beidou.





Bratva said:


> The company claims that the GPS can provide positioning with accuracy of up to two centimeters. However, it adds that the accuracy can extend up to five millimeters after post-processing.
> 
> Pakistan becomes first country to deploy China’s BeiDou GPS network – The Express Tribune



I know ...... my point was how can Beidou help in development of contour maps for TERCOM ??


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## Bratva

kurup said:


> I know ...... my point was how can Beidou help in development of contour maps for TERCOM ??



That's where classified info kicks in. No nation discloses how they get contour maps for TERCOM.


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## gslv mk3

shaheenmissile said:


> That Dirty work was done by SUPARCO using Commercially available satellite images/ Data,which is very accurate now



@Bratva How does that work exactly?


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## Bratva

gslv mk3 said:


> @Bratva How does that work exactly?



Many possibilities exist like a private company which is front of strategic organizations buying commercially available maps from sat imagery firm like this

Satellite Imagery and Image Processing Services | Satellite Imaging Corp

3D Terrain Visualization, 3D Terrain Flythrough, Digital Terrain Model | Satellite Imaging Corp

and updating it continuously through different means afterwards

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## kurup

Bratva said:


> That's where classified info kicks in. No nation discloses how they get contour maps for TERCOM.



I am sure Pakistan has those ....... You didnot understand my question .

How *Beidou* helps in development of contour maps ?? Afterall Beidou is a navigation system not an imaging one .


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## gslv mk3

Bratva said:


> Many possibilities exist like a private company which is front of strategic organizations buying commercially available maps from sat imagery firm like this
> 
> Satellite Imagery and Image Processing Services | Satellite Imaging Corp
> 
> 3D Terrain Visualization, 3D Terrain Flythrough, Digital Terrain Model | Satellite Imaging Corp
> 
> and updating it continuously through different means afterwards



TFS


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## Bratva

kurup said:


> I am sure Pakistan has those ....... You didnot understand my question .
> 
> How *Beidou* helps in development of contour maps ?? Afterall Beidou is a navigation system not an imaging one .



As per chinese, Beidou provides mapping capability as well

Putting Precision in Operations: Beidou Satellite Navigation System | The Jamestown Foundation

Spaceflight Now | Breaking News | China's Beidou navigation system gets new satellite

Pakistan to have Functioning Global Navigational Satellite System by June 2013

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## shaheenmissile

Dr. Samar said there are 5 cameras on babur cruise missile..
Wonder what that means.


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## Bilal.

shaheenmissile said:


> Dr. Samar said there are 5 cameras on babur cruise missile..
> Wonder what that means.



DSMAC


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## The Deterrent

shaheenmissile said:


> Dr. Samar said there are 5 cameras on babur cruise missile..
> Wonder what that means.


They are for testing purposes, to record/transmit video feed for post-test analysis.
Only one camera is needed for DSMAC.

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## amardeep mishra

@The Deterrent
@Oscar

Hi folks,
i have written an elaborate article on guidance and control system of cruise missiles,which i will be posting in a couple of days! Since a control engineer myself,i have added wee bit of control loops and kalman filtering to elucidate various concepts

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## amardeep mishra

@The Deterrent
@Oscar

We all very well know the importance of INS+GPS package for guidance of missiles.I will begin my analysis from briefly describing the INS+GPS and then eventually building on TERCOM and DASMAC guidance schemes. I have certain reservations regarding pakistani access to accurate maps- but i am guessing china would provide these to pakistan?
There are Two GPS/INS integration approaches commonly used. These are

(a) the tightly coupled integration approach, which yields higher accuracies; and
(b)the loosely coupled integration approach used for short time and/or ranges,yielding lower accuracies
Normally the GPS receiver of the missile is interfaced with
(1)altimeter
(2)flight control system,
(3)the INS’s serial/digital interface,
(4) and the carrier aircraft/launching platform

The navigator (i.e., dynamic navigation equations), consisting of a 15-state Kalman filter(in case anyone of you want an elaborate analysis of how KALMAN filters are used to fine tune/filter various sensor outputs,i can provide an indepth analysis as well- for more advanced readers- Amardeep Mishra), is normally updated by the onboard navigation computer every 50 milliseconds (or a 20-Hz rate),while the GPS is updated at1-Hz rate.The GPS will normally consist of a 8-state Kalman filter,so that both the INS and GPS Kalman filters operate in a cascaded mode.Inertial aiding provided to the GPS receiver- tracking loop is at a 10-Hz rate. (Note that the INS is of the strap down class. Thus,the basic strap-down INS algorithms that maintain the body-to-level-axis transformation matrix and transform the body-axis velocity increments to a locally level coordinate frame can be performed at a rate of 50 Hz, while the basic INS algorithms can be performed at an iteration rate of 10 Hz.).

A significant characteristic of the ALCM is the high accuracy at long missile ranges provided by its terrain correlation updated navigation system. In order to implement a terrain correlation updated navigation system, reference terrain elevations must be stored in the missile’s computer prior to launch.This elevation data must be gathered, stored in ground computers, precisely selected for each mission, stored in the carrier aircraft, and transmitted to the missile prior to launch. More specifically, the missile’s navigation and guidance unit uses a terrain contour matching (TERCOM) system that periodically updates the missile’s inertial navigation system by comparing terrain over which the missile flies with stored mapping data.

Now here is the trouble,where does pakistan sources,such an "elevation data"?In USA's case,this data is collected by Defense Mapping Agency-Aerospace Center (DMAAC).In india's case this data is gathered by most probably the RISATs in orbit(more preferabbly by RISAT-2 that has an x-band AESA SAR that can map very very accurately)






The above figure shows visually the steps involved in planning a test mission from launch
point (Point 0) to the target (Point 6). The planner first selects a path from launch to the target in the horizontal plane that passes through the required maps (maps 1 and 3, in the example). In the horizontal plane selection, the mission planner takes into account the terrain over which the missile will fly,special test objectives,and distance between maps. The mission planner has two ALCM simulation tools (or modules) available to aid him in planning missions. These are
(a) the clobber analysis module
(CAM), and
(b) the navigation accuracy module (NAM)

Both these programs reside in a ground-based computer. CAM provides the capability to the mission planner to compute either probability of ground clobber given a specified ground clearance, or ground clearance given a specified probability of clobber. CAM can operate in a rapid mode or a slower mode that provides more detailed results. NAM predicts accuracy and map crossing probabilities along the route of the mission from launch to target. Each of the horizontal maneuvers or any missile mode or speed change requires a missile waypoint. A waypoint is defined as an action point.
The vertical profile is then selected. Here again, a waypoint is needed for each vertical change either in terrain following or barometric hold. Once the mission is selected and all way point and maps defined,the defined mission is inputed to the mission data preparation system

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## amardeep mishra

Contd

The guidance software modules provide the command signals used by the auto- pilot modules to control vehicle heading, crosstrack, and altitude. The guidance modules are
(a) route definition module,
(b) lateral guidance module, and
(c) vertical guidance module.
The route definition module provides
(1) launch turn control to permit launch in a direction away from the first waypoint,
(2) calculation of unit vectors in a tangent plane coordinate frame for use in the lateral guidance module
(which will be discussed below),
(3) data control logic to sequence through profile segment data and waypoint definition data, and
(4) control of logic flags that initiate turns to change from one mission segment (or leg) to the next.

The lateral guidance module calculates the bank angle commands used by the autopilot modules in controlling vehicle heading and cross track position. In particular,the lateral guidance module provides bank angle commands for steering to the ground track defined by waypoints. Near a waypoint, the desired path (i.e., the reference for determining lateral displacement and heading) is a circular arc transition between the two directions defined by adjacent great circle path segments, as illustrated in Figure 7.3(that i have attached below for the reference). To recapitulate, the cruise missile is directed along the proper course between waypoints by the lateral steering system. The steering plane, that is, a plane containing the two waypoints and the Earth’s center, defines the course between two waypoints. The perpendicular distance between the air vehicle position and the steering plane is the crosstrack error, and its time derivative is the crosstrack error rate






During turns, the crosstrack error may be defined as follows. A turn center is defined (see the figure above) that is the center of the circle containing the desired ground track during the turn. As a result, the crosstrack error then becomes the difference in the lengths of two vectors from the turn center. One of the vectors defines air vehicle position, and the other, the ground velocity.

The third module, the vertical guidance module, calculates the vertical acceleration commands used by the autopilot module(i.e., vertical acceleration control) to control air vehicle altitude. Specifically, the vertical guidance module commands normal accelerations based on clearance altitude error and a selected form of feedback. Note that climbing flight generally employs a clearance rate feedback, while diving flight is executed with inertial rate feedback.

@Oscar

here is my brief analysis of TERCOM-
Terrain contour matching(TERCOM) can be defined as a technique for determination of the position location of an air borne vehicle with respect to the terrain over which the vehicle is flying.More specifically, TERCOM is a form of correlation guidance based on a comparison between the measured and the pre stored features of the profile of the ground(i.e.,terrain)over which a missile or air craftisflying.Generally,terrain height forms the basis of this comparison.Reference terrain elevation source data descriptive of the relative elevations of the terrain in the fixpoint are as are stored in the airvehicle’s onboard computer. Obtaining the reference data requires prior measurement of the ground contours of interest. These data are in the form of a horizontally arranged matrix of digital elevation numbers. A given set of these numbers describes a terrain profile. The length of contour profile necessary for a unique fit is a function of terrain roughness, but is in the range of 6 to 10 km and can be a curved path. The TERCOM profile acquisition system consists of a radar terrain sensor (RTS) or a radar altimeter and a reference altitude sensor (RAS) or barometric altimeter.
As the vehicle flies over the matrix area, data describing the actual terrain profile beneath the vehicle are acquired. That is, the actual profile is acquired using a combination of radar and barometric altimeter outputs sampled at specific intervals, and when compared against the stored matrix profiles provides the position location. This type of guidance is used for updating a midcourse guidance system on a periodic basis, and has been applied to the guidance of cruise missiles, which usually fly at subsonic speeds and fairly constant altitude. With regard to midcourse guidance, it is well known that the simplest midcourse guidance is the explicit guidance method.The guidance algorithm has the capability to guide the missile to a desired point in the air while controlling the approach angle and minimizing an appropriate cost function. Furthermore, the guidance gains of the explicit guidance law are usually selected to shape the trajectory for the desired conditions.

The TERCOM technique, first patented in 1958, relies for its operating principle on the simple fact that the altitude of the ground above sea level varies as a function of location. For example, if one were to make a rectangular map of an area 2 km ×10 km long, divide the map into squares, say, 100 meters on a side, and record in each square the average elevation of the ground in it, one would then obtain a digital map consisting of 2,000 numbers, each number corresponding to the elevation of a point of known coordinates on the ground. A set of such maps, which can be made much larger and can have squares with smaller sides if required, is stored in the memory of the missile’s onboard computer. The missile is provided with a downlooking radar altimeter capable of resolving objects on the ground smaller than the map squares from a height of several kilometers.Consequently, as the missile approaches the region for which the computer memory has a map, the altimeter starts providing a stream of ground-elevation data. Furthermore, the computer, by comparing these data with the elevation data it has in its memory, can determine the actual location of the missile with an accuracy comparable to the size of the map cell. It then instructs the autopilot to take any corrective steps necessary to return the missile to its intended trajectory. More than 20 such maps can be stored in the missile’s on board computer,enabling the missile to update its location information and correct its trajectory frequently during its overland flight

TERCOM is somewhat of a misnomer, since the process does not accurately match terrain contours to determine a fit,and thus the missile’s location.Rather,the“match” occurs by determining the minimum value of a summation of terrain altitude differences.The altitude for each cell of a reference strip is subtracted from cell altitudes derived from a combination of the missile’s radar altimeter and air data system to obtain these differences. The map strip identified by the minimum summation locates the crosstrack position of the missile. The downtrack position of the missile is deter-
mined from the time that the minimum value occurred. Significant in this process is the fact that the reference map data are stored as a 4-bit words, limiting the number of possible altitudes to 16 quantized levels. Radar altimeter data are stored as 4-bit words. It should be noted that TERCOM fix accuracy degrades with increasing altitude. Above a radar altitude of 4 to 5 times the cell size, the accuracy degrades to the point that terrain correlation is not feasible.

@Oscar

Now, the question i have is-
1)Does babur have onboard radar imaging seeker?
2)How does pakistan acquire precise altitude maps of the region?

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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> Now, the question i have is-
> 1)Does babur have onboard radar imaging seeker?
> 2)How does pakistan acquire precise altitude maps of the region?



Babur Cruise Missile - Database | Page 17

Precision of maps is limited to available commercial DeD sources.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Precision of maps is limited to available commercial DeD sources.



But what about the seeker?does babur have any kind of active radar,either for measure altitude,or even for altitude correlation?


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## shaheenmissile

amardeep mishra said:


> But what about the seeker?does babur have any kind of active radar,either for measure altitude,or even for altitude correlation?


Has RADAR altimeter. That is an integral part of TERCOM.


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## amardeep mishra

shaheenmissile said:


> Has RADAR altimeter



Hi!
I am guessing the source of this radar altimeter is again china?just like the turbojet that powers it? And finally are there no programs to indigenously design radars?i mean,radars form the basis of a lot of modern weapon systems,ranging from missiles,surveillance systems etc!
It would be great if you can shed some light on that based on credible research literature!


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> But what about the seeker?does babur have any kind of active radar,either for measure altitude,or even for altitude correlation?


It has a basic radar altimeter to correlate the data with.


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## Stephen Cohen

@amardeep mishra 

What matters from India's point of view is that whether 
our SAM systems are able to destroy Sub sonic missiles or not


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## amardeep mishra

Stephen Cohen said:


> What matters from India's point of view is that whether
> our SAM systems are able to destroy Sub sonic missiles or not



Hi
Dr saraswat in one his seminars revealed that india does have interceptor capability to take down the cruise missiles.However the main challenge associated is the early warning of cruise missiles(He mentioned this some 6-7 years back,when they were still perfecting the AAD design).To that effect DRDO is working on aerostats with longer ranges(450kms ranged aerostats is in development).The typical requirement of a aerostat radar is to have decent MTI capability(by having relatively low PRF) to detect a small cruise missile flying very low against the ground clutter. He also mentioned a network of multi-static systems to be deployed as early warning for cruise missiles.
Apart from all these,various LRDE developed LOW LEVEL RADARs are already in service to provide early warning against cruise missiles or for that matter any low level object(however their range is pretty much limited to ~50kms).
One should also note that in one the recent test launches of akash SAM,it intercepted a target merely 30m above the ground

@Oscar
Does pakistan operate any LLRs(low level radars) like LRDE's bharani and ashlesha?

This one is an AESA(designed by LRDE) and tbh,it looks a smaller variant of your TPS-77 radar

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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> @Oscar
> Does pakistan operate any LLRs(low level radars) like LRDE's bharani and ashlesha?


Army:
GIRAFFE Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giraffe 40 upgraded locally to near AMB standards in signal processing. 

LAADS system from the US, upgraded version based on MPQ-46
AN/MPQ-49 Forward Area Alerting Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Air Force:
YLC-6
More here
PLA Air Defence Radars

From what I remember from when I worked(2010-12) is there are two other low level Radar systems said to be local(as they were to be part of the 3rd and 4th layer of Net Centric system under development at the time. .no idea what nomenclature, how developed etc.


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## Muhammad Omar

pakeye said:


> Pakistan test fires Babur missile-Pakistan-World-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos



Showing NASR Missile and Saying BABUR Missile


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> From what I remember from when I worked(2010-12) *is there are two other low level Radar systems said to be local(as they were to be part of the 3rd and 4th layer of Net Centric system under development at the time*. .no idea what nomenclature, how developed etc.



Hi oscar,to be honest,i never really knew that pakistan has MPQ-49! Anyways,if possible,can you shed some light on the part i have highlighted above?


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## amardeep mishra

shaheenmissile said:


> *Terrain Hugging capability can be derived from GPS/BEIDOU or any satellite navigation system*,provided the positioning is accurate enough



hi there!
you seem to have gotten the concept of TERCOM all wrong!-Terrain hugging capability is actually autonomous to GPS and to be honest,this was developed way earlier than the GPS(the actual development of GPS aided cruise missile guidance was pioneered by USA in mid 80s and it was only in early 90s that GPS aided guidance was put to use!) In modern times though the TERCOM is usually coupled with GPS to improve accuracy.
For TERCOM you'd need altitude maps of the region- again for that you'd need MAPPING SATELLITES and not navigational satellites!- i hope now itz clear?


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## shaheenmissile

amardeep mishra said:


> hi there!
> you seem to have gotten the concept of TERCOM all wrong!-Terrain hugging capability is actually autonomous to GPS and to be honest,this was developed way earlier than the GPS(the actual development of GPS aided cruise missile guidance was pioneered by USA in mid 80s and it was only in early 90s that GPS aided guidance was put to use!) In modern times though the TERCOM is usually coupled with GPS to improve accuracy.
> For TERCOM you'd need altitude maps of the region- again for that you'd need MAPPING SATELLITES and not navigational satellites!- i hope now itz clear?


Yes true. TERCOM needs altimeter and terrain altitude data. Not GPS as per say. But the basic purpose of TERCOM was not position finding but missile survivability in stealth,as TERCOM helped missile to maintain a constant low altitude by following altitude contours of the land.
But not technology has improved.ELINT/SIGINY is much advanced and so is GPS posotioning.
An altimeter is a transmission which can give away Missile's position. Thats why radar altimeter may be switched off or replacef with an accurate satellite positioninh system to keep missiles stealth. 
Although no evidence yet of this technology in Babur. But both Babur and Raad are fitted with 2d/3d pitot tubes. Your article does not cover working and purpose of pitot tubes in missile.


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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi!
> I am guessing the source of this radar altimeter is again china?just like the turbojet that powers it? And finally are there no programs to indigenously design radars?i mean,radars form the basis of a lot of modern weapon systems,ranging from missiles,surveillance systems etc!
> It would be great if you can shed some light on that based on credible research literature!



Check PAC and AERO websites. Pakistan produces various types of radar altimeters. No need to set your self up for failure by starting every thing from scratch like DRDO. We design what we can, we manufacture what we can if it makes economic sense, we buy what is viable to buy. The idea is to have a credible defense at minimum cost and don't waste resources on basic research. You want basic research you go to the universities. The defense establishment is not for basic research


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## Zarvan

We haven't test Babur for really long time hope to see long range version and also Naval Version.


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## amardeep mishra

Bossman said:


> Check PAC and AERO websites. Pakistan produces various types of radar altimeters.* No need to set your self up for failure by starting every thing from scratch like DRDO*



Hi there!
Dont you think it is always wise do to your background research before writing any comment? Dont you think one should first be READY TO LEARN and what is happening elsewhere! In case you,got you never read any research literature from DRDO ,i would gladly post them here- have got many of them!



shaheenmissile said:


> But both Babur and Raad are fitted with 2d/3d pitot tubes. Your article does not cover working and purpose of pitot tubes in missile.



@shaheenmissile
Hi there!
I did not include pitots because they are very very simple devices that are used to measure "STAGNATING PRESSURE"(and that stagnating pressure is compared with static pressure buildup at close to the tip to get a measure of "velocity"). Pitot tube is like the very first thing any control engineer studies in his course(We studied that pretty much in the beginning of our course- 3rd semesters)- anyway,since you have asked about it,i will explain that in DETAIL!


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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi there!
> Dont you think it is always wise do to your background research before writing any comment? Dont you think one should first be READY TO LEARN and what is happening elsewhere! In case you,got you never read any research literature from DRDO ,i would gladly post them here- have got many of them!
> 
> 
> !



Are you a retard or what. This is a website and you are dealing with anonymous people and not trying to defend your Phd. thesis. Why should I research before I write, I know DRDO is total failure. I have listed their failures many time before and that is what India is the biggest weapons importer in the world. It does not even have a domestic primary trainer in service. Weren't you the one talking about how great DRDO is because it can bake epoxy or something? Baking epoxy will not defend your country


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## AUz

Babur II with 1500km range on our submarines would give Pakistan a very lethal strike capability....

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## amardeep mishra

@shaheenmissile

Here i will briefly explain the pitots and how they are typically employed for velocity measurement-
As you can clearly see in the pictures,the pressure at the tip of the pitot is known as stagnant pressure and the velocity of air at this junction is zero.Static pressure taps are located around the circumference of the tube to obtain the static pressure reading.These two pressures are fed to manometer type system to provide the differential pressure- it is the differential pressure we are interested in,because the velocity is a function of square root of differential pressure and is given by the expression-
v= SQRT(2*(differential pressure)/rho)
When pitots are used in missiles and aircrafts the static pressure reading can be used to measure the altitude- if altitude is to be measured with an error of say 30m ,then the static pressure must be accurate to 0.5%! But here is a catch that most of the people tend to ignore while talking about pitots in relation to missiles and aircrafts and that is the pitot is SUSCEPTIBLE to misalignment as the missile's angle of attack changes this is known as "*mis-alignment of tube axis with velocity vector*"
There is also an elegant solution to this problem- and that is achieved by having static pressure taps aligned at +/-37.5 degrees with the axis makes it independent of the angle of attack(AoA is nothing but the angle subtended by velocity vector or velocity of air with tube axis) alpha in the range from -2 to 12 degrees!While this method is only effective for alpha ranging between -2 to 12 degrees,a more flexible approach is by designing single vane(rotating type) that adjusts the static taps in +/-37.5 degrees with respect to the velocity vector.
Till now i have assumed the velocity to be confined in only one plane,but what if velocity vector changes plane with changing pitch and yaw of aircraft or even otherwise?what do we do then?- here is the solution
The solution lies in making a "multi-vane(usually a 5-tap sensor)" pitot mounted on a gimbal system is used(first pioneered in american X-15) that provide complete rotational freedom to adjust the static taps with respect to cross flow vector.By measuring the rotation of gimbals,these systems can also determine the direction of velocity!

Determination of AoA and yaw onboard flight vehicles is often accomplished by "vane type probes".These devices are essentially one or two axis weather vanes with suitable damping to reduce oscillations and with motion pick-ups to provide electrical angle signals.Agin gimbaled is best suited for high velocity/high alt applications as it has a gimbal that automatically align itself based on error signal generated by differential pressure P1-P2 and P3-P4(5-tap sensor)

When a pitot is employed in an incompressible fluid,the above eqn that i have mentioned doesnt hold good(although it may be sufficiently accurate if the mach numbers are low- i.e for subsonic regime).
For supersonic regime though where(N>1),a compression shock wave forms ahead of the pitot tube.Between this shock wave and the tube end,the velocity is subsonic.This subsonic velocity is the reduced to zero at the stagnation point. And the differential pressure is now given by a complex formula-
Dp= N^2{(k+1)/2)^(k/(k-1))}*[(2kN-k+1)/((N^2)(k+1)))]^(1-1/(k-1)
Where N is the mach number and k is the ratio of specific heat at constant pressure to specific heat at constant volume!






Picture Courtesy- "Measurement systems application and design"- Ernst doeblin| dhanesh n Manik

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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> @shaheenmissile
> 
> Here i will briefly explain the pitots and how they are typically employed for velocity measurement-
> As you can clearly see in the pictures,the pressure at the tip of the pitot is known as static pressure and the velocity at the junction is zero.Static pressure taps are located around the circumference of the tube to obtain the static pressure reading.These two pressures are fed to manometer type system to provide the differential pressure- it is the differential pressure we are interested in,because the velocity is a function of square root of differential pressure and is given by the expression-
> v= SQRT(2*(differential pressure)/rho)
> When pitots are used in missiles and aircrafts the static pressure reading can be used to measure the altitude- if altitude is to be measured with an error of say 30m ,then the static pressure must be accurate to 0.5%! But here is a catch that most of the people tend to ignore while talking about pitots in relation to missiles and aircrafts and that is the pitot is SUSCEPTIBLE to misalignment as the missile's angle of attack changes this is known as "*mis-alignment of tube axis with velocity vector*"
> There is also an elegant solution to this problem- and that is achieved by having static pressure taps aligned at +/-37.5 degrees with the axis makes it independent of the angle of attack alpha in the range from -2 to 12 degrees!While this method is only effective for alpha ranging between -2 to 12 degrees,a more flexible approach is by designing single vane(rotating type) that adjusts the static taps in +/-37.5 degrees with respect to the cross flow vector.IN modern times though "multi-vane" pitot mounted on a gimbal system is used(first pioneered in american X-15) that provide complete rotational freedom to adjust the static taps with respect to cross flow vector.By measuring the rotation of gimbals,these systems can also determine the direction of velocity!
> 
> Determination of AoA and yaw onboard flight vehicles is often accomplished by "vane type probes".These devices are essentially one or two axis weather vanes with suitable damping to reduce oscillations and with motion pick-ups to provide electrical angle signals.Agin gimbaled is best suited for high velocity/high alt applications as it has a gimbal that automatically align itself based on error signal generated by differential pressure P1-P2 and P3-P4(5-tap sensor)
> 
> When a pitot is employed in an incompressible fluid,the above eqn that i have mentioned doesnt hold good(although it may be sufficiently accurate if the mach numbers are low- i.e for subsonic regime).
> For supersonic regime though where(N>1),a compression shock wave forms ahead of the pitot tube.Between this shock wave and the tube end,the velocity is subsonic.This subsonic velocity is the reduced to zero at the stagnation point. And the differential pressure is now given by a complex formula-
> Dp= N^2{(k+1)/2)^(k/(k-1))}*[(2kN-k+1)/((N^2)(k+1)))]^(1-1/(k-1)
> Where N is the mach number and k is the ratio of specific heat at constant pressure to specific heat at constant volume!
> 
> View attachment 178956



Thanks for your cut and paste job. Who are you trying to impress? I think you have some very deep rooted insecurities or I would say lack of education that you are trying to compensate for.


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## amardeep mishra

Bossman said:


> Thanks for your cut and paste job. Who are you trying to impress? I think you have some very deep rooted insecurities or I would say lack of education that you are trying to compensate for.



Oh really?you have no idea about my experience or my qualifications,and yet you talk like that- impressive! 

Yes indeed the picture has been taken from "Measurement systems application and design"- Ernst doeblin| dhanesh n Manik,However the description is all mine- i still dont understand your point- either way,i am not going to reply to your posts any longer because of the simple reason that you seem to be oblivious to industrial research taking place in india and insulting my intelligence
If you care to read my explanation ,no where have i mentioned that the pics are mine- in fact have given due credit to the author as well


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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> Oh really?you have no idea about my experience or my qualifications,and yet you talk like that- impressive!
> 
> Yes indeed the picture has been taken from "Measurement systems application and design"- Ernst doeblin| dhanesh n Manik,However the description is all mine- i still dont understand your point- either way,i am not going to reply to your posts any longer because of the simple reason that you seem to be oblivious to industrial research taking place in india and insulting my intelligence
> If you care to read my explanation ,no where have i mentioned that the pics are mine- in fact have given due credit to the author as well



Obviously I don't know your experience and qualifications and that is my point in the first place. Who are you trying to impress? The person you are exchanging messages with on this board might be 12 year old kid and there are many. As far as industrial research in India is concerned, I have not doubt that it is taking place but it doesn't seems to be contributing significantly to the country's defense. It is attitude of people like you who are responsible for the problem. They are taking a lot of pride in undertaking esoteric academic research but they cannot translate it into operational defense products. Every major Indian defense project has been a failure. You are even importing small arms ammunition.


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## shaheenmissile

@amardeep mishra have a look at this pic of Raad ALCM. What can you say about these "Appendages".


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## amardeep mishra

shaheenmissile said:


> have a look at this pic of Raad ALCM. What can you say about these "Appendages"



Hi @shaheenmissile
That seems to be some sort of wind vane for velocity/angle of attack(AoA is basically the angle subtended between the wind velocity vector and zero lift line) measurement. It works on the same principle as i have mentioned above(i.e differential pressure method).However in certain cases,*ANEMOMETER* type sensing instrument is used to measure the flow.(Anemometers work by loss of heat due to convection~higher the loss higher will be the flow of fluid around the hot wire).Normally "constant current" type anemometers are preferred over "constant temperature" type.
Btw,i have composed a detailed analysis of TERCOM guidance,in case anyone is interested,i can post it here!


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## Jungibaaz

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @shaheenmissile
> That seems to be some sort of wind vane for velocity/angle of attack(AoA is basically the angle subtended between the wind velocity vector and zero lift line) measurement.



That's exactly what it is. 



shaheenmissile said:


> @amardeep mishra have a look at this pic of Raad ALCM. What can you say about these "Appendages".


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## amardeep mishra

@shaheenmissile

The equation for Anemometer type sensors for velocity/flow measurement is-
(i^2)*R=hA(Tx-Ty)
and h=a+b*sqrt(v)

Where i = current through the wire
R= Resistance of the filament
A=Area
Tx-Ty= difference in temperature between fluid and the filament
h=film coefficient of heat transfer which is a function of fluid velocity

Here i'd like to point out that from a purely industrial application perspective a normal anemometer type sensor cant be directly installed on an aircraft as the reading of anemoemter is inherently non-linear as can be seen from the equation above.Hence there is a need to linearize the circuit by placing it in the feedback path of a op-amp.Or by using software algorithms that take int account the non-linear equation


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## Bratva

Babur  stats board in Ideas 2008


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## Indus Falcon

Any updates on Babur2 and Babur Sub launched version?

@Horus @Rashid Mahmood


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## Kurlang

amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> @Oscar
> 
> We all very well know the importance of INS+GPS package for guidance of missiles.I will begin my analysis from briefly describing the INS+GPS and then eventually building on TERCOM and DASMAC guidance schemes. I have certain reservations regarding pakistani access to accurate maps- but i am guessing china would provide these to pakistan?
> There are Two GPS/INS integration approaches commonly used. These are
> 
> (a) the tightly coupled integration approach, which yields higher accuracies; and
> (b)the loosely coupled integration approach used for short time and/or ranges,yielding lower accuracies
> Normally the GPS receiver of the missile is interfaced with
> (1)altimeter
> (2)flight control system,
> (3)the INS’s serial/digital interface,
> (4) and the carrier aircraft/launching platform
> 
> The navigator (i.e., dynamic navigation equations), consisting of a* 15-state Kalman filter*(in case anyone of you want an elaborate analysis of how KALMAN filters are used to fine tune/filter various sensor outputs,i can provide an indepth analysis as well- for more advanced readers- Amardeep Mishra), is normally updated by the onboard navigation computer every 50 milliseconds (or a 20-Hz rate),while the GPS is updated at1-Hz rate.The GPS will normally consist of a 8-state Kalman filter,so that both the INS and GPS Kalman filters operate in a cascaded mode.Inertial aiding provided to the GPS receiver- tracking loop is at a 10-Hz rate. (Note that the INS is of the strap down class. Thus,the basic strap-down INS algorithms that maintain the body-to-level-axis transformation matrix and transform the body-axis velocity increments to a locally level coordinate frame can be performed at a rate of 50 Hz, while the basic INS algorithms can be performed at an iteration rate of 10 Hz.).
> 
> A significant characteristic of the ALCM is the high accuracy at long missile ranges provided by its terrain correlation updated navigation system. In order to implement a terrain correlation updated navigation system, reference terrain elevations must be stored in the missile’s computer prior to launch.This elevation data must be gathered, stored in ground computers, precisely selected for each mission, stored in the carrier aircraft, and transmitted to the missile prior to launch. More specifically, the missile’s navigation and guidance unit uses a terrain contour matching (TERCOM) system that periodically updates the missile’s inertial navigation system by comparing terrain over which the missile flies with stored mapping data.
> 
> Now here is the trouble,where does pakistan sources,such an "elevation data"?In USA's case,this data is collected by Defense Mapping Agency-Aerospace Center (DMAAC).In india's case this data is gathered by most probably the RISATs in orbit(more preferabbly by RISAT-2 that has an x-band AESA SAR that can map very very accurately)
> View attachment 178759
> 
> 
> The above figure shows visually the steps involved in planning a test mission from launch
> point (Point 0) to the target (Point 6). The planner first selects a path from launch to the target in the horizontal plane that passes through the required maps (maps 1 and 3, in the example). In the horizontal plane selection, the mission planner takes into account the terrain over which the missile will fly,special test objectives,and distance between maps. The mission planner has two ALCM simulation tools (or modules) available to aid him in planning missions. These are
> (a) the clobber analysis module
> (CAM), and
> (b) the navigation accuracy module (NAM)
> 
> Both these programs reside in a ground-based computer. CAM provides the capability to the mission planner to compute either probability of ground clobber given a specified ground clearance, or ground clearance given a specified probability of clobber. CAM can operate in a rapid mode or a slower mode that provides more detailed results. NAM predicts accuracy and map crossing probabilities along the route of the mission from launch to target. Each of the horizontal maneuvers or any missile mode or speed change requires a missile waypoint. A waypoint is defined as an action point.
> The vertical profile is then selected. Here again, a waypoint is needed for each vertical change either in terrain following or barometric hold. Once the mission is selected and all way point and maps defined,the defined mission is inputed to the mission data preparation system



Firstly, I really liked your avatar as it reminds me of the polar & spherical coordinate system I studied long long time ago in the course of electromagnetic theory. You talked about the controls system and application of adaptive signal processing however it is a defense form, I think people would not appreciate your efforts - though they should.

At least i do appreciate your effort.


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## AUz

@The Deterrent 

Did Pakistan indigenously developed turbofan engine for babur? Developing a turbofan engine that can take a cruise missile to 700km isn't small task but Pakistan doesn't have any base in engine technology. So how is Pak making decent turbofan engines for babur?

Whats the catch? Any idea/insights? or its all classified info


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## The Deterrent

AUz said:


> @The Deterrent
> 
> Did Pakistan indigenously developed turbofan engine for babur? Developing a turbofan engine that can take a cruise missile to 700km isn't small task but Pakistan doesn't have any base in engine technology. So how is Pak making decent turbofan engines for babur?
> 
> Whats the catch? Any idea/insights? or its all classified info


The all-weather friend seems to be helpful in this regard. Pakistan either bought a large number of engines or is producing/assembling them locally.


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## AUz

The Deterrent said:


> The all-weather friend seems to be helpful in this regard. Pakistan either bought a large number of engines or is producing/assembling them locally.



Janab ap ko kabhi "curiosity" nahi hui is baray mein? Kabhi pta laganay ki try nahi ki ksi se? 

I don't know why our anchors don't ask these questions from relevant authorities. Buying engines for your premiere cruise missiles isn't a very smart way to go about things. At the very least, there should be transfer of technology and know how..


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## The Deterrent

AUz said:


> Janab ap ko kabhi "curiosity" nahi hui is baray mein? Kabhi pta laganay ki try nahi ki ksi se?
> 
> I don't know why our anchors don't ask these questions from relevant authorities. Buying engines for your premiere cruise missiles isn't a very smart way to go about things. At the very least, there should be transfer of technology and know how..


_Line pe aa jaein aap._

I guess they don't ask questions which don't have any answers. Its just my opinion that the engines were either bought or produced locally (ToT).


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## Arsalan

AUz said:


> @The Deterrent
> 
> Did Pakistan indigenously developed turbofan engine for babur? Developing a turbofan engine that can take a cruise missile to 700km isn't small task but Pakistan doesn't have any base in engine technology. So how is Pak making decent turbofan engines for babur?
> 
> Whats the catch? Any idea/insights? or its all classified info



Not indegeniously developed an engine but are producing these at home as per various reports. We discussed this earlier as well but there was not much available.
You can check at:
Babur Cruise Missile - Database


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## zahidiqbalrana

What a technology they had produced ... amazing


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## Blue Marlin

Last Hope said:


> Babur is guided with sophisticated systems which form a image of the terrain in the missile and guides it accordingly.
> Babur is stealth missile and the range is being developed. And sooner or latter a longer-range Babur would be integrated to be launched from frigates.



you are partly correct. the babur missile's range is being increased but the missile would need to be based soon a frigate that has a VLS thats something Pakistan does not have. and not any time soon. let the economy grow then focus on a frigate launch able missile. its stick to land and submarine for now and surface ships later.


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## ZAC1

submarine version has been handed over to PN ?


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## Arsalan

ZAC1 said:


> submarine version has been handed over to PN ?



It is *reported *to be under development. There is no official confirmation yet. However there a plenty of developments that point in direction of a naval version, things like tube launched trails of the missile, vertical launch trails, formations of Naval Strategic Forces Command. All these point towards project to arm navy with land attack missiles. It is possible that it will be submarines that will get these missiles first and surface ships that will be inducted with missiles will be inducted at a later stage.

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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> It is *reported *to be under development. There is no official confirmation yet. However there a plenty of developments that point in direction of a naval version, things like tube launched trails of the missile, vertical launch trails, formations of Naval Strategic Forces Command. All these point towards project to arm navy with land attack missiles. It is possible that it will be submarines that will get these missiles first and surface ships that will be inducted with missiles will be inducted at a later stage.


A couple of points.

You might recall in 2008 that Pakistan and Turkey signed an agreement to jointly develop turbojet engines, and knowing the programs of both countries, it is likely that indigenous power plants for cruise missiles are on the horizon.

As for naval LACM, it is clear the reason why we haven't seen PN really push on it is because we lack adequate platforms to carry and launch these missiles. I think the actual missile technology is in the late stages of development, if not complete, but in the absence of a suitable SSK and/or FFG, what is the point of saying we have one? Yes, it'll let the world know what we're capable of, but I would prefer seeing a complete triad. That said, solid LACM capability from frigates should come from a 5000+ ton design with wide area air defence (90-120+ km range).

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## Arsalan

Mark Sien said:


> A couple of points.
> 
> You might recall in 2008 that Pakistan and Turkey signed an agreement to jointly develop turbojet engines, and knowing the programs of both countries, it is likely that indigenous power plants for cruise missiles are on the horizon.
> 
> As for naval LACM, it is clear the reason why we haven't seen PN really push on it is because we lack adequate platforms to carry and launch these missiles. I think the actual missile technology is in the late stages of development, if not complete, but in the absence of a suitable SSK and/or FFG, what is the point of saying we have one? Yes, it'll let the world know what we're capable of, but I would prefer seeing a complete triad. That said, solid LACM capability from frigates should come from a 5000+ ton design with wide area air defence (90-120+ km range).



True!
However PN is really not looking for 5000+ ton frigates/destroyers so our naval arm of nuclear triad will be formed by submarine force. For the foreseeable future at least. Heavier frigates are on cards but appx 4000-5000 ton category with a view to provide better air defense capabilities. Land attack role will be left for the submarines and the recent drive to buy 8 submarines from China seem to be a part of it.

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## HRK

Mark Sien said:


> A couple of points.
> 
> You might recall in 2008 that Pakistan and Turkey signed an agreement to jointly develop turbojet engines, and knowing the programs of both countries, it is likely that indigenous power plants for cruise missiles are on the horizon.



If you could plz post some more detail or link that will be helpful .....


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It would be good to have an air to surface version of this Babur missile as well.


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## black-hawk_101

When it will going to be integrated on F-22Ps and also is there any chance of using it against IS and other terrorists?


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## In arduis fidelis

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would be good to have an air to surface version of this Babur missile as well.


Don't we have Ra'ad for that role already?Or this has advantage over Ra'ad?


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## shaheenmissile

Arsalan said:


> It is *reported *to be under development. There is no official confirmation yet. However there a plenty of developments that point in direction of a naval version, things like tube launched trails of the missile, vertical launch trails, formations of Naval Strategic Forces Command. All these point towards project to arm navy with land attack missiles. It is possible that it will be submarines that will get these missiles first and surface ships that will be inducted with missiles will be inducted at a later stage.


I think Pakistan will never publicly accept any Submarine based Nuclear capability due to international politics. The subs we use are French not Pakistani . So the French may still have some say on what we can do with the subs and what we cannot. Specially when the AIP is 100% made in France and all spares come from France. An embargo and stoppage of spares will outweigh any gains from chest thumping while showing off Babur being fired from a Sub.
Things may change once we have Chinese subs.

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## ZAC1

Babur serial production starts in 2004 end.so how many of them are produced.just want to know how much hell can we can give to our enemies with these


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## Maarkhoor

ZAC1 said:


> Babur serial production starts in 2004 end.so how many of them are produced.just want to know how much hell can we can give to our enemies with these


Cruise and ballistic missiles are not produced in bulk quantities but we have enough to keep our enemies at bay.


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## [--Leo--]

there is a question 
i was comparing tomahak and babur weight size almost every thing is same but babur range is 700km and tomahak 2500 km 
i saw in one clip that babur using normal fan but tomahak using turbo fan which gives extra range?
my question is what is the reason behind this difference in range?


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## Arsalan

[--Leo--] said:


> there is a question
> i was comparing tomahak and babur weight size almost every thing is same but babur range is 700km and tomahak 2500 km
> i saw in one clip that babur using normal fan but tomahak using turbo fan which gives extra range?
> my question is what is the reason behind this difference in range?


Babur uses a turbo fan engine as well. The tomahawk weights slightly more however that alone is not/can not b responsible for the much increased range. One main thing to consider is the engine efficiency. Just like in different cars give different mileage with similar CC engines, same goes for these missiles as well. US over the years have a much more efficient engine that they use with there Tomahawk while we lack such technology. Other thing is the fuel type, a very efficient fuel as well. Not sure what we are using with Barbur but that too also contributes to the range.

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## ZAC1

Arsalan said:


> Babur uses a turbo fan engine as well. The tomahawk weights slightly more however that alone is not/can not b responsible for the much increased range. One main thing to consider is the engine efficiency. Just like in different cars give different mileage with similar CC engines, same goes for these missiles as well. US over the years have a much more efficient engine that they use with there Tomahawk while we lack such technology. Other thing is the fuel type, a very efficient fuel as well. Not sure what we are using with Barbur but that too also contributes to the range.


few of tomahawk fall during afghanistan attack in to pakistan tribal area i dont think reverse engg in material used as fuel can be done these days.the only reason i only see is our planning division that they donot want long range cruise missiles

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## Arsalan

ZAC1 said:


> few of tomahawk fall during afghanistan attack in to pakistan tribal area i dont think reverse engg in material used as fuel can be done these days.the only reason i only see is our planning division that they donot want long range cruise missiles


Even by this logic sir, I don't think there would be any fuel left in the missiles that apparently "crashed". By the time we recovered those, would there be any fuel left in the tanks of crashed missiles?


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## ZAC1

Arsalan said:


> Even by this logic sir, I don't think there would be any fuel left in the missiles that apparently "crashed". By the time we recovered those, would there be any fuel left in the tanks of crashed missiles?


they didn't reached their destination as per my thinking fuel should be remained there


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## Arsalan

ZAC1 said:


> they didn't reached their destination as per my thinking fuel should be remained there


Sir they CRASHED.




ZAC1 said:


> they didn't reached their destination as per my thinking fuel should be remained there


Sir they crashed.
Like,, you know!! CRASHED!!!






Anyway, that is a non-issue i think, there are other ways to work on the fuel efficiency and more importantly on engine efficiency. The reason that is not worked upon, we cannot know for sure.

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## ZAC1

Arsalan said:


> Sir they CRASHED.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir they crashed.
> Like,, you know!! CRASHED!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, that is a non-issue i think, there are other ways to work on the fuel efficiency and more importantly on engine efficiency. The reason that is not worked upon, we cannot know for sure.


my dear ones i think there should be something something that had been left


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## Arsalan

ZAC1 said:


> my dear ones i think there should be something something that had been left


Well I cannot and am not stopping you from thinking somethings, just presenting some facts to help that thought process get on the right track. 
What can i say!


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> Babur is not fitted with a 1000Kg Thrust engine. *The Babur Cruise missile is powered by 700lb thrust engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.8:1 *
> The engine comprises a single-stage centrifugal compressor, two-stage fan with a two-stage low-pressure booster, a reverse-flow annular combustor with rotary injection, a turbine section with one high-pressure and two low-pressure stages. It uses a special high-density blended aviation turbine fuel that has more energy for a given volume than standard fuels, and can endure harsh weather conditions and long storage periods.
> 
> About fuel, The missile has a booster rocket provides additional thrust to accelerate the missile away from the launch vehicle and ground at time of launch/lift-off. *This is a Solid Fuel Booster Rocket. *
> After the launch the middle section flight wings unfold, the booster rocket is jettisoned and the jet engine takes on for the rest of flight path. *Babur have a Liquid Fuel Jet Engine.*
> 
> for more:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...abur-cruise-missile-database.html#post3023390


how reliable is this source ? i dont think its reliable. its got a centrifugal compressor? rc turbines for model jets have this type of compressor. so how can a cruise missile have it.


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## Arsalan

Blue Marlin said:


> how reliable is this source ? i dont think its reliable. its got a centrifugal compressor? rc turbines for model jets have this type of compressor. so how can a cruise missile have it.


What thing you doubt about?
The "single stage centrifugal compressor" description of the engine? Let me know and i will see what details i can find again to share with you.


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> What thing you doubt about?
> The "single stage centrifugal compressor" description of the engine? Let me know and i will see what details i can find again to share with you.


both. i refuse to believe you have such an imature engine heck the chinese have the tri-40 you can stick that in it and it would be better and have the same thrust


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## tommytrant20

pakistan missiles with sufficient deterrence, the neighboring countries especially china


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## Arsalan

Blue Marlin said:


> both. i refuse to believe you have such an imature engine heck the chinese have the tri-40 you can stick that in it and it would be better and have the same thrust


again sir, can you please elaborate what is that you doubt to be wrong? I will surely look into it and get back to you but you have to let me know what is the thing that you have doubts about?


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> again sir, can you please elaborate what is that you doubt to be wrong? I will surely look into it and get back to you but you have to let me know what is the thing that you have doubts about?


the range of the missile. the engine must be awfull for it to have a range of 700km yet have the same power as other cruise missile engines. i would know for a fact the chinese have somthing better as they have the tri-40 engine which they have no doubt reverse engineered. the chinese must have helped you setup your miniturbojet facility.


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> Babur uses a turbo fan engine as well. The tomahawk weights slightly more however that alone is not/can not b responsible for the much increased range. One main thing to consider is the engine efficiency. Just like in different cars give different mileage with similar CC engines, same goes for these missiles as well. US over the years have a much more efficient engine that they use with there Tomahawk while we lack such technology. Other thing is the fuel type, a very efficient fuel as well. Not sure what we are using with Barbur but that too also contributes to the range.



JP-10 is used in Tomahawk. Same fuel used in Commercial airlines

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## Arsalan

Blue Marlin said:


> the range of the missile. the engine must be awfull for it to have a range of 700km yet have the same power as other cruise missile engines. i would know for a fact the chinese have somthing better as they have the tri-40 engine which they have no doubt reverse engineered. the chinese must have helped you setup your miniturbojet facility.


So you mean that the stated range is wrong? That we should be using the Chinese engine that would give us better range and the claims of 700 KM are wrong? If that is the case, i doubt i will be able to help you much as that is a published fact and if it is a coverup you wont find many talking about the reality.



Bratva said:


> JP-10 is used in Tomahawk. Same fuel used in Commercial airlines


What about Babur? 
As far as i was able to study it this is the same we are using for Babur. You have any further details? 
There were some things being worked on related to engine as well but not sure what happened to that since i moved from Taxila two years ago and was better informed when i was there  
If you have anything that can be shared i will be happy to know about it.


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> So you mean that the stated range is wrong? That we should be using the Chinese engine that would give us better range and the claims of 700 KM are wrong? If that is the case, i doubt i will be able to help you much as that is a published fact and if it is a coverup you wont find many talking about the reality.


yes the "stated"range is wrong. it should be at least 1000km. remember this thing is going on a sub. look below a slcm with a range of 700km cant even reach new dehli





even at 1000km its no good




you have ground launched missiles that can cover all of india but you dont have second strike capability on all of india.

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## Arsalan

Blue Marlin said:


> yes the "stated"range is wrong. it should be at least 1000km. remember this thing is going on a sub. look below a slcm with a range of 700km cant even reach new dehli
> View attachment 313155
> 
> even at 1000km its no good
> View attachment 313157
> 
> you have ground launched missiles that can cover all of india but you dont have second strike capability on all of india.


Well as i said sir, all i can say on this matter is what is being officially confirmed and that is the source. If it is a cover-up there wont be many willing to answer that on internet.  All we can do is speculate!


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> Well as i said sir, all i can say on this matter is what is being officially confirmed and that is the source. If it is a cover-up there wont be many willing to answer that on internet.  All we can do is speculate!


indeed........... but there a thing as being realistic and just plain obivous same applies to the raad to come to think of it.


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## Danish saleem

when Babur cruise missile system will be the part of our Navy?


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## Arsalan

Danish saleem said:


> when Babur cruise missile system will be the part of our Navy?


We will eventually see a LACM being deployed aboard our future submarines but it it is quite some time from happening. Years i would say.

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## SQ8

Arsalan said:


> We will eventually see a LACM being deployed aboard our future submarines but it it is quite some time from happening. Years i would say.


I would not be so sure.


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> I would not be so sure.


i think what he meant to say was that there will be an slcm version of the babur


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> i think what he meant to say was that there will be an slcm version of the babur


And I meant to say that dont overestimate the timeline.

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## Danish saleem

Arsalan said:


> We will eventually see a LACM being deployed aboard our future submarines but it it is quite some time from happening. Years i would say.



i dont think babur will be placed on subs, i think we need to place it on Frigates as soon as possible.


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> And I meant to say that dont overestimate the timeline.


according to rashid mahmood its been tested. so i would assume its good to go ,and i would imagine its range is more than 700km


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> according to rashid mahmood its been tested. so i would assume its good to go ,and i would imagine its range is more than 700km


Not exactly. That range figure is less than that due to certain changes in design and size; and the launch methods arent so sophisticated for now(although that will change). However, the move is now beyond a SLCM and towards a SLBM.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. That range figure is less than that due to certain changes in design and size; and the launch methods arent so sophisticated for now(although that will change). However, the move is now beyond a SLCM and towards a SLBM.


do what the french are doing and made a bad a$$ cruise missile and put it in a canister or get some help from the chinese. the baburs specs are near that of other cruise missiles of its class but its range is way of.
tbh i refuse to belive the range is 700km the second strike capability is weakened.
as for an slbm well you need to have ssbn to launch slbm and thats about 15 years away at least your talking 2030. and pakistan cant exactly redesign the yaun to hold slbms. and no the type 32 is a test bed.





the chinese would have to help you or you have your hands on some existing designs. heck even the indian ssbn was made with help from the russain and they admitted it. if they got help you will need help to and even more.

also ksew is unsuitable to built subs as it made in the open and rolled out when launching. you dont have that. look at us.







mean while in karachi you have this





i say stick to slcm and develop them with larger ranges and try getting a conventional type 93 sub for them.


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. That range figure is less than that due to certain changes in design and size; and the launch methods arent so sophisticated for now(although that will change). However, the move is now beyond a SLCM and towards a SLBM.



SPD should take a leaf out of Indian boasting strategy and should fire whatever slcm they developed from pontoon . Just as the unexpected and surprised launch of Babur LACM in August 2005, though it took 8 years afterwards to complete the development and ope-rationalize it.

If we are thinking about the time line, LACM project started somewhere in 1999, matured in 2005. Made Became Operational in 2012-2013

Now similarly, SLCM project started somewhere around 2009-2010. Its been 6-7 years now So it should what is good for the goose should be good for the gander as well.

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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> SPD should take a leaf out of Indian boasting strategy and should fire whatever slcm they developed from pontoon . Just as the unexpected and surprised launch of Babur LACM in August 2005, though it took 8 years afterwards to complete the development and ope-rationalize it.
> 
> If we are thinking about the time line, LACM project started somewhere in 1999, matured in 2005. Made Became Operational in 2012-2013
> 
> Now similarly, SLCM project started somewhere around 2009-2010. Its been 6-7 years now So it should what is good for the goose should be good for the gander as well.


Why should they worry about a SLCM design and testing when we can get the blueprints straight out of China, modify it to our needs and then test it?
That saves us tens of millions in costs.

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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> So you mean that the stated range is wrong? That we should be using the Chinese engine that would give us better range and the claims of 700 KM are wrong? If that is the case, i doubt i will be able to help you much as that is a published fact and if it is a coverup you wont find many talking about the reality.
> 
> 
> What about Babur?
> As far as i was able to study it this is the same we are using for Babur. You have any further details?
> There were some things being worked on related to engine as well but not sure what happened to that since i moved from Taxila two years ago and was better informed when i was there
> If you have anything that can be shared i will be happy to know about it.



Nah more or less the same details that you have 

The problem is inefficient or what they say, Gas guzzling engine. Chinese somehow provided them the early model of engines, If I'm not wrong since project was initated in 1999. And it seems NESCOM has been trying to upgrade the engine inhouse instead of depending on China to provide upgraded engine models.



Oscar said:


> Why should they worry about a SLCM design and testing when we can get the blueprints straight out of China, modify it to our needs and then test it?
> That saves us tens of millions in costs.



Perhaps, some nerds at the NESCOM decide that no more cheating, it is time to show our collective genius to world and make some dhotis wet in the process ?

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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> Perhaps, some nerds at the NESCOM decide that no more cheating, it is time to show our collective genius to world and make some dhotis wet in the process ?



ill reiterate this again(and again where I have to):

Pakistan only spends R&D where it cannot source the material or where there is a chance the material may have a unreliable supplier.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> ill reiterate this again(and again where I have to):
> 
> Pakistan only spends R&D where it cannot source the material or where there is a chance the material may have a unreliable supplier.


thats only in the feild of strategic weapons then


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> thats only in the feild of strategic weapons then


Every weapon.


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> Every weapon.


depends on how you define everything. what about the c802 or sd-10? or have you been tweeking them to violate the mtcr? (in the case of the c802 and the c602)


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> depends on how you define everything. what about the c802 or sd-10? or have you been tweeking them to violate the mtcr? (in the case of the c802 and the c602)


If tweaked in house, there is no violation.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> If tweaked in house, there is no violation.


did i say it was a violation ? you can only do that on chinese kit though i doubt you modded the harpoon. they was some rumours going around a while ago, that pakistan tweeked them for land targets and an inspection revieled they were fine and all accounted for.


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> did i say it was a violation ? you can only do that on chinese kit though i doubt you modded the harpoon. they was some rumours going around a while ago, that pakistan tweeked them for land targets and an inspection revieled they were fine and all accounted for.


The harpoon was never touched because the technical expertise to pull that off successfully never existed. That story was just an Indian lobby plant.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> The harpoon was never touched because the technical expertise to pull that off successfully never existed. That story was just an Indian lobby plant.


i got that while ago now you need to as you have mor capable weapons. also the harpoons are getting quite old now and its getting to the point of using them or losing them.


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## ConcealCarry

Makes sense, as no need to re-invent the wheel if you can buy one.




Oscar said:


> ill reiterate this again(and again where I have to):
> 
> Pakistan only spends R&D where it cannot source the material or where there is a chance the material may have a unreliable supplier.


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## Arsalan

Danish saleem said:


> i dont think babur will be placed on subs, i think we need to place it on Frigates as soon as possible.


Not happening for now.



Oscar said:


> And I meant to say that don't overestimate the timeline.


I say that based on:

Lack on any submerged test launches
Lack of a proper platform. We are still not very sure if we will be able to use a SLCM from Augusta and the Chinese options a few years away from induction.
Even working on some Chinese blueprints for a SLCM as you suggested in a later post will need some time. It will surely not be same as designing a new system but it sure will need some time. Furthermore, i would say that the better option will be to take "Submarine launched" part of SLCM from some Chinese missile and keep the "Cruise missile" part of SLCM same as Babur. A complete Chinese system should only be acceptable if it comes in form of blueprints, complete control over its designing and development.



Oscar said:


> ill reiterate this again(and again where I have to):
> 
> Pakistan only spends R&D where it cannot source the material or where there is a chance the material may have a unreliable supplier.


Totally agreed with and despite what fanboys have to say about it, completely sensible. Even though there are some disadvantages but the advantages it offers to a country like ours are going to outweigh the disadvantages for some years to come.



Bratva said:


> Nah more or less the same details that you have
> 
> The problem is inefficient or what they say, Gas guzzling engine. Chinese somehow provided them the early model of engines, If I'm not wrong since project was initated in 1999. *And it seems NESCOM has been trying to upgrade the engine inhouse instead of depending on China *to provide upgraded engine models.


Yup that is what i was talking about when i said "some work was being done related to engines".
The concern is that there have been no tests or report about an increased range missile. Not it may mean two things:

The NESCOM guys were not very successful in there project and thus we are stuck with that same engine.
The things are being kept under wraps
Now frankly, point 1 is not very likely and point 2 don't makes much sense.

Point one is not likely because firstly i believe NESCOM guys would have sorted it out themselves and even if for some reason they were not able to do so there was always that Chinese option. In short improving the range would not have been that much of a problem.

Point two don't makes much sense because why would PA want to keep such details secret. I guess we should let enemy know what will we fight with if provoked. The only way to WIN a war in today's nuclear armed world is to avoid it from happening and potent platforms will always help keep your enemies at bay.
One little point in its favor however is that it is a strategic weapons and perhaps PA will want to keep details like range hidden but still if would have opted for a public test and a confirmation of range over 700Km and give a range figure few hundred Km short of the actual. At least make people know that we will be a hard nut to crack. I stress this to be VERY important for so many other weapon platforms at the very least. No point hiding things like general capabilities, off course no one is asking to actually discuss the technical details or anything but at least be vocal about what you are capable of. 
AVOID THOSE HOSTILITIES IF YOU WANT TO WIN THEM.

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## Incog_nito

I think PN needs to add VLS launchers in F-22P.


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## Hassan Guy

What are the future upgrades for the next variant of the Babur?


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## Max



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## Hassan Guy

Max said:


>


That is an older variant, it looks more like this now;


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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> That is an older variant, it looks more like this now;
> View attachment 345458


no bro this not a launcher but specially built vehicle for parade event that shows the missile

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## Incog_nito

Max said:


>


I think this cylo is for PN

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## Max

Oxair Online said:


> I think this cylo is for PN



correct.



Oxair Online said:


> I think this cylo is for PN



correct. Thats why we have naval strategic forces command..

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## Incog_nito

For Submarine launch and Frigates VLS.


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## ahsanhaider




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## Bratva



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## The Eagle

*Pakistan Reveals Test of Submarine-Launched Missile*



> “It has proven the speculation that Pakistan will not follow India’s pathway to a naval leg of the triad via nuclear submarines but opt for a more cost-effective solution tailored to its own strategic calculus and capabilities,” he said.
> 
> Combined with the very low frequency communication facility unveiled last year, Ahmed believes Pakistan’s Naval Strategic Force Command can now deploy nuclear-armed cruise missiles on its conventional submarines to ensure a credible second-strike capability.
> 
> This is likely to be fully utilized onboard the forthcoming air-independent propulsion-equipped Hangor-class submarines designed by and co-produced with China.


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## SQ8

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Oscar kahan ghayab hogaye sirrrrr .  agr raad 2 aya 23rd march ko to meri postive rating by u and @Bratva


I am in Dubai on business so not using pdf

Hopefully you are right


I don't care much for ratings so sure

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## Rocky rock



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## Thorough Pro

These are not test rounds (even if dummies for demo), why are the painted in bright orange? The real ones should be light blue/grey to merge with the background



Rocky rock said:


> View attachment 386686


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## Arsalan

Thorough Pro said:


> These are not test rounds (even if dummies for demo), why are the painted in bright orange? The real ones should be light blue/grey to merge with the background


The operational ones are!

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## Bratva

Thorough Pro said:


> These are not test rounds (even if dummies for demo), why are the painted in bright orange? The real ones should be light blue/grey to merge with the background

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## Areesh

Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784


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## koolio

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784


If that is the case, what chances are the Indian S400 missiles going to stop Babur cruise missiles, the Babur cruise missile is very similar to tomahawk cruise missile.

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## Areesh

koolio said:


> If that is the case, what chances are the Indian S400 missiles going to stop Babur cruise missiles, the Babur cruise missile is very similar to tomahawk cruise missile.



Wait for a d!ckhead from India to come and brag about it.


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## Path-Finder

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784


Highly interesting. No wonder they fired 59 Tomahawk and 23 hit apparently so a huge volley of missile can overcome air defence IF it's not complete. one or two Pantsir can only do so much.


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## WarFariX

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784


Also it depends on the concentration of pantsir present there.....


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## Army research

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784


Nope, first of all Russian point air defence like panstir or only at the Russian base in Latakia, secondly long range SAM's like the s400 were silent as the US had informed Russia before the stike

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## Rocky rock

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784



This isn't true Russian Defense expert has just said there was a deal between Russia and US to not to engage any Aerial target until it's direct threat to Russian forces. which Russia has now break after this attack. now in any future attack if same thing happens then we must admit those Air defense are useless in front of Tomahawk.

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## ziaulislam

Army research said:


> Nope, first of all Russian point air defence like panstir or only at the Russian base in Latakia, secondly long range SAM's like the s400 were silent as the US had informed Russia before the stike


long range sams will not pick up terrain hugging cruise missiles, unless you have a strong AWECS in air
panstir is short range system, it can pick up and probably destroy a few


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## monitor

Areesh said:


> Off topic but apparently Russian Pantisr failed to detect and destroy Tomahawk cruise missiles in Syria
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850682393816182784




Couldn't read what the pictures about. But seeing the picture it seems pantisr themselves destroyed instead of savings others.


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## fatman17

Air Weapons: Pakistani Cruise Missiles

April 13, 2017: During a March 23rd parade Pakistan showed off the Raad 2 ALCM (air launched cruise missile) for the first time. It appeared to be the same size and shape of the original Raad but with a longer range of 550 kilometers. The original Raad had a range of 350 kilometers. Also called Hatf 8, Raad is a 1.1 ton, 4.85 meter (16 foot) long missile that entered service in 2007. Raad did not use pop-out wings like Western cruise missiles and its design is based more on Russian Cold War era ASMs (air-to-surface missiles). 

A more familiar cruise missile is the Pakistani Babur (Hatf 7), which entered service in 2005. This is a larger 1.5 ton, 7 meter (23 foot) long GLCM (ground launched cruise missile) with a 500 kilometers range and by 2007 range was extended to 700 kilometers. Like the American Tomahawk cruise missile Babur used terrain following and GPS for guidance. In late 2016 Babur 2 entered service. It had a range of 750 kilometers and an improved guidance system that could be used without GPS and was able to attack ships at sea. Raad and Babur can both carry nuclear warheads.

In January 2017 Babur 3, a submarine launched version, entered service. This version has a range of 450 kilometers and can carry a nuclear warhead. Babur uses 1980s era technology pioneered by the United States with their Tomahawk. This novel 1.3 ton American cruise missile entered service in 1983 and air and sea launched versions are still used. The GLCM version never entered service. Ranges varied from 1,300 t0 2,500 kilometers. The Tomahawk is widely imitated because it does not use any exotic tech breakthroughs.

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## Abdullah Rahat

.................


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## Safriz

December 2016 Babur-2 ISPR press release said "All-Time DSMAC" . Meaning the missile also has Infra red vision for use at Night. This capability wasnt there before.

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## Arsalan

شاھین میزایل said:


> December 2016 Babur-2 ISPR press release said "All-Time DSMAC" . Meaning the missile also has Infra red vision for use at Night. This capability wasn't there before.


IR was not part of earlier missiles. Not aware if these were incorporated in Blk-II or Babur-II either. May be a recent development, may be nothing but wrong choice of words!


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## Safriz

Arsalan said:


> IR was not part of earlier missiles. Not aware if these were incorporated in Blk-II or Babur-II either. May be a recent development, may be nothing but wrong choice of words!


Not, not wrong choice of words. IR is now part of Pakistani cruise missile guidance systems.


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## Arsalan

شاھین میزایل said:


> Not, not wrong choice of words. IR is now part of Pakistani cruise missile guidance systems.


But is it on Babur-II? 
That is where i said "wrong choice of words" 
It may be a recent development but not something all the Babur-II missiles have already, at least i am not aware (not saying that me not being aware means that it is not authentic, it may very well be)


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## Safriz

Arsalan said:


> But is it on Babur-II?
> That is where i said "wrong choice of words"
> It may be a recent development but not something all the Babur-II missiles have already, at least i am not aware (not saying that me not being aware means that it is not authentic, it may very well be)


Babur II was made anti ship capable as description said , capable of hitting targets at sea. So must have some form of active seeker.


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## Arsalan

شاھین میزایل said:


> Babur II was made anti ship capable as description said , capable of hitting targets at sea. So must have some form of active seeker.


That too was not part of plan during designing phase! Incorporated later i think. Or do you think it was planned as such from the very start?


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## Safriz

Arsalan said:


> That too was not part of plan during designing phase! Incorporated later i think. Or do you think it was planned as such from the very start?


As of now its 20 year old system , so improvements must have been made over 2 decades.
Also babur had a modular design from beginning which makes adding new features all too easy, as modules can be swapped with new better ones instead of changing the whole missile.
I see six modules bolted together







For adding new sensors, just the front module needs changing and changes in software. The rest of the missile remains the same.

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## Safriz

four years ago , how wrong people were in this thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what-is-the-status-of-babur-ii.280548/


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## Fabricio Tavares

That was an interesting image.


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## Safriz

This document says that F17 MOD 2 Torpedoes used by Agosta 90B are 1.2 Million USD each and are only 5.38 Meters long.
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1731


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## The Accountant

شاھین میزایل said:


> This document says that F17 MOD 2 Torpedoes used by Agosta 90B are 1.2 Million USD each and are only 5.38 Meters long.
> https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1731


It's hell of expensive


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## Safriz

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Arsalan

*Pakistan successfully test launches enhanced version of Babur cruise missile*

Pakistan on Saturday conducted a successful test of an enhanced range version of the indigenously developed Babur cruise missile to bolster the country’s deterrence capabilities, an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) press release said.

The tested missile — described by the ISPR as 'Babur Weapon System-1 (B)' — incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700 kilometres.

The Babur missile was unveiled in 2005 and since then has undergone several upgrades. It is a low-flying, terrain-hugging missile, which can hit targets both at land and sea with pinpoint accuracy, even in the absence of GPS navigation. It also has stealth features.

Equipped with the Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) technologies, it can carry both nuclear and conventional warheads.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1401591/p...ches-enhanced-version-of-babur-cruise-missile


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985166721421111298
@Dazzler @HRK @TaimiKhan @fatman17 @Signalian

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## Maxpane

Congrats pakistan


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## syed_yusuf

The wording enhanced range version is seriously bothering me specially when in the same tweet it says 700km


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## Safriz




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## fanna4paf2




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## Mr ambassador

nice job .

please increase its range .


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## Safriz

__ https://www.facebook.com/





Hint.... Look underneath

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## syed_yusuf

Is it air intake?


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## Mitho1980

What does it take to increase range of a cruise missile aroud 1200km? Technically speaking


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## Safriz

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...no-drop-down-air-intake.553685/#post-10413523

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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> The wording enhanced range version is seriously bothering me specially when in the same tweet it says 700km


earlier BABUR-1 version had a range of 500 KM

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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


> earlier BABUR-1 version had a range of 500 KM


But it was never operational, the operational version of babur has 700 km range with 300kg warhead


Not too sure what range extension is he talking about


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Yaseen1

tomohawk can be fired from ship standing at 2000km away so we should have atleast this range anti ship missile to strike back to ship

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## Arsalan

شاھین میزایل said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hint.... Look underneath


Nope dear, there is a drop down air intake present in the latest test as well. 
You missed it because of angel of the camera












__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## AUz

Mitho1980 said:


> What does it take to increase range of a cruise missile aroud 1200km? Technically speaking



Far more efficient engine...and significantly improved fuel 

It's not easy. Developing more efficient fuel requires a lot of R&D...

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## The Deterrent

AUz said:


> Far more efficient engine...and significantly improved fuel
> 
> It's not easy. Developing more efficient fuel requires a lot of R&D...


The fuel is usually standard. Its all about the engine, a turbojet can do only so much.

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## Bratva

http://www.china.org.cn/business/2017-05/23/content_40873203.htm

*Pakistan benefits from China's Sat-Nav system*

By Sabena Siddiqui 

May 23, 2017 

Currently operational in the coastal city of Karachi in Pakistan, it is the very first time that China has brought its full, highly accurate Beidou system, to a foreign nation. A Long March-3C carrier rocket carrying the 23rd satellite in the BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS) lifts off from Xichang Satellite Launch Center, southwest China's Sichuan Province, June 12, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua] A Long March-3C carrier rocket carrying the 23rd satellite in the BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS) lifts off from Xichang Satellite Launch Center, southwest China's Sichuan Province, June 12, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua] The system was initially launched after discussion with Pakistan's Strategic Planning Division for military applications and with Pakistan's national space agency, Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission for civilian use under an agreement in 2013. During the initial phase, the first ground based augmentation system is to be installed in Karachi. Providing a safer and more reliable alternate to the American GPS, the new navigation system will offer better precision and accuracy as more satellites and reference stations are gradually launched. According to the agreement, 

China provided the Beidou-equipped infrastructure for government and military use at subsidized costs which included the building of differential ground stations that increase the system's accuracy on the ground. Once the second stage is completed, the whole area of Pakistan will be covered. Based in Beijing, the UniStrong Science and Technology Co, navigation satellite system, positioning and timing service provider, has five base stations and a processing center in Karachi since May 21, 2014. Zhang Ruifeng, head of the Unistrong's publicity department, gave details that the network installed in Karachi is the full Beidou system with a 2-centimetre accuracy rate. This can be extended up to five millimetres after post-processing and has hitherto been unavailable outside China. The arrangement transpired as a result of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's trip to Pakistan in May 2013, where both countries enhanced their strategic cooperation in inter-connectivity, maritime cooperation, aerospace and aviation. Pakistan is the first country in the world to sign an official cooperation agreement on BDS, especially in the fields of aerospace and aviation. Experiencing difficulty at first in finding a suitable site for the navigation system, Wang Yun, manager of UniStrong's product department and leader of the construction team in Karachi, related how she and her team walked around barren hills for days, “because in this arid area, there was scarcely any Internet or communication services, and there were no compatible devices for BDS, we had to keep walking to try and find a proper site." After the selection of the location, the high precision network took some months to complete and now it enhances the efficacy of basic geographic surveying, land management and port dispatching at a lower cost. 

As to Pakistan's concerns, BDS has a vast number of military and civilian uses, it helps with urban planning, surveying, mapping environmental supervision, disaster relief efforts, traffic monitoring as well as space technology. While space technology applications are widely used by shipping lines and airlines, it is also a strategic milestone as BDS will prove to be a revolutionary development for defence and security mechanisms by providing dual navigational layers. After covering the rest of Pakistan, the company looks ahead to equipping more Belt and Road countries with the satellite navigation system. With plans to expand cooperation involving BDS to Thailand, Sri Lanka and other countries in Southeast Asia, the company aims to continue the establishment and joint construction of base stations as well as to participate in international scientific and technical development and research on BDS. Most of the countries participating in the Belt and Road Initiative would be offered the navigation system as part of economic diplomacy. Other notable global navigation systems are Russia's Glonass, the European Space Agency's Galileo and the United States' GPS. 

As of now, the vision of BDS is to spread beyond the borders of China. Professor Li Deren from the School of Remote Sensing and Information Engineering of Wuhan University said, "Our priority is to expand BDS from China to the frontline of the Belt and Road Initiative, and in this Optics Valley Beidou is a pioneer." Finally, Beidou is projected to complete global coverage with 35 satellites by 2020, meeting national security requirements by ending military reliance on GPS as well as availing of the quickly expanding market. Though both GPS and Beidou signals are free services and there is no rivalry over any market share, owning and operating one of only four such international navigation systems carries its own clout. 

The navigation satellite system brings enhanced prestige and diplomatic opportunities for China as well as leverage to obtain more influence in several international and regional organizations that deal with global satellite navigation issues. Lastly, this development also establishes China as a leading space power, Beidou has often been referred to as a top space project and it is expected to provide international cooperation opportunities once a Chinese space station is fully functional and in orbit by 2020.

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## Darbari

Your youtube link is not working


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## Bratva




----------



## Path-Finder

*Power up [AAD18D1]*
*Sam J Basch*
19 September 2018






South Africa's aerospace industry is now investing in a propulsion sector, with several role players actively engaged in various aspects of it. One of these is Cape Town-based Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), which works in conjunction with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and various universities. CAT is displaying its micro gas turbine engines under the auspices of the Department of Trade and Industry in Hanger 1, Stand E6.

According to chief executive David Krige, the company designs, manufactures and tests high-performance gas turbines for use in high-speed target drones, UAVs, experimental aircraft, full-size gliders and model aircraft.

"Gas turbines represent a specialised, extremely fine tolerance niche in the science of manufacturing, particularly at this scale," he explained. "CAT owes its success to a meticulous in-house design-to-manufacture process, including engine and subsystem assembly and testing."

The turbines (pictured), ranging from the CAT 120 to the CAT 400 Newton, are compactly designed to feature an excellent thrust-to-weight ratio and low specific fuel consumption. Their operating altitude is 8,000m. Krige said the turbines operate on diesel, kerosene or Jet A1 fuel, and include an electronic control unit, a ground support unit and ancillaries required for engine operation during flight.

In addition, CAT's turbines feature a fuel-atomising direct kerostart system, which also enables a relighting capability for high-altitude starts.

The company prides itself on getting the first new gas turbine engine running in South Africa since the late 1980s.

https://www.janes.com/article/83092/power-up-aad18d1
*============================================*
Some info I got at the last AAD (2016) show concerning mini gas turbine development (specifically for PGMS and missiles) that I have been meaning to share for a while now.

There has been a sudden re-resurrection in terms of South Africa's development in this regard over the last 2 years or so. As per my earlier posts in this thread (#84 and #102 specifically), the 1980's project Apartment has also been widely mentioned and covered in these and other posts.

Here are some pics of the 200N micro gas turbine in development by Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), with CSIR help and guidance. It apparently will quickly become the top turbine in the enthusiast/model hobby market should they get it to match their projected specs. It's also an important step in getting a new (or rather renewed) grassroots level of expertise growing within the South African gas turbine development environment. Once perfected, it can also be scaled up to start meeting the 600N and perhaps even the 1000N thrust ranges. Once thus up-scaled, it will start matching the criteria for military PGM's etc. I suspect that Umbani/Al-Tariq or Raptor III could be a potential receiver of these higher thrust turbines - this will dramatically extend their range and combat flexibility. Naturally various existing and new UAV's being developed could benefit from this gas turbine range.

The bottom pic is my own - the top pic shows the difference in physical size to the project Apartment turbine and is off of the CAT website. There are some differences in the pics of each one respectively, more than likely earlier and later development versions.






https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-307964
=============================================
So while the above micro gas turbine is in essence more aimed at the hobby market and as a test bed (and perhaps for smaller PGM/UAV applications), this 1000N (1kN) turbojet is a much more serious design in terms of military applications. It was as of August 2016 in the detailed design phase, so it should by now be something pretty real. Quoting from a CSIR dossier, the following relates to both this turbojet, as well as the above posted micro turbine:

"the core for both designs are based on mixed flow compressor design, simultaneously enabling high mass flow and pressure ratios in single stages. The compressors that have been tested thus far all show that the designs should meet their targets. The technology has many potential applications and spin-offs."

Later the article goes on further to say:

"there are many variant designs possible; for instance, by adding turbine stages or converting the engine to bypass engines with higher thrust for helicopter applications and UAVs, respectively".

Speaking to the principal engineer, he told me that they has specifically gone the turbojet route with the 1 kN project as it was a rough and tough design that could pretty much handle anything thrown at it. My pic below depicts a 1:1 scale model of the turbojet, made using a 3D printing process. It's a fair bit larger than the 200N design - at about a third longer and much wider IIRC. He also indicated that the combustion chamber could easily be lengthened, allowing for in-flight relight, or more importantly for military purposes - the ability to launch at high altitudes. This I think perhaps alludes to the project Apartment's potential short-coming, in that it might only have been capable of ground start/launch (in a high oxygen density environment). I assume project Apartment would have been further developed for air launch - but before that could happen the French stepped in and offered us their Micro Turbo turbine (initially denied to us, but when they saw we were getting it right on our own....). As mentioned above the new turbine could grow into a far more powerful one, including a bypass version.

The new turbojet does not have any oil mist lubrication in order to comply with international ITAR regulations, it's current theoretically calculated range without any lubrication is about 300km's. There is however certainly a requirement for a much higher thrust design than just 1kN, so we are definitely going to see more from this project in the future.

I was told that the (black) air inlet portion at the front of the turbojet was simply added on to the model for demonstration purposes only, and certainly is not something that has been correctly calculated and tested in any way.

I think I might have some more info on it somewhere, as soon as I find it I will post more on this project....





https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-308090
================================================
As can be seen by the big change in the internal layout, a different direction in it's design has been taken (compare to my post #180), it's now much more conventional in it's layout and is also pretty much frozen in terms of it's final design - It's about 50cm long and 25cm wide. Testing of the compressor section is scheduled for March 2019, and I guess that the complete system will have been tested (fully?) by the end of 2019. One of the designers told me that he would more than likely scale it up (3,3 kN I mentioned in post #180?), and then go on to use it as a core for a turbofan model/version.

*I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?



*
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-336825

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> *Power up [AAD18D1]*
> *Sam J Basch*
> 19 September 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Africa's aerospace industry is now investing in a propulsion sector, with several role players actively engaged in various aspects of it. One of these is Cape Town-based Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), which works in conjunction with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and various universities. CAT is displaying its micro gas turbine engines under the auspices of the Department of Trade and Industry in Hanger 1, Stand E6.
> 
> According to chief executive David Krige, the company designs, manufactures and tests high-performance gas turbines for use in high-speed target drones, UAVs, experimental aircraft, full-size gliders and model aircraft.
> 
> "Gas turbines represent a specialised, extremely fine tolerance niche in the science of manufacturing, particularly at this scale," he explained. "CAT owes its success to a meticulous in-house design-to-manufacture process, including engine and subsystem assembly and testing."
> 
> The turbines (pictured), ranging from the CAT 120 to the CAT 400 Newton, are compactly designed to feature an excellent thrust-to-weight ratio and low specific fuel consumption. Their operating altitude is 8,000m. Krige said the turbines operate on diesel, kerosene or Jet A1 fuel, and include an electronic control unit, a ground support unit and ancillaries required for engine operation during flight.
> 
> In addition, CAT's turbines feature a fuel-atomising direct kerostart system, which also enables a relighting capability for high-altitude starts.
> 
> The company prides itself on getting the first new gas turbine engine running in South Africa since the late 1980s.
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/83092/power-up-aad18d1
> *============================================*
> Some info I got at the last AAD (2016) show concerning mini gas turbine development (specifically for PGMS and missiles) that I have been meaning to share for a while now.
> 
> There has been a sudden re-resurrection in terms of South Africa's development in this regard over the last 2 years or so. As per my earlier posts in this thread (#84 and #102 specifically), the 1980's project Apartment has also been widely mentioned and covered in these and other posts.
> 
> Here are some pics of the 200N micro gas turbine in development by Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), with CSIR help and guidance. It apparently will quickly become the top turbine in the enthusiast/model hobby market should they get it to match their projected specs. It's also an important step in getting a new (or rather renewed) grassroots level of expertise growing within the South African gas turbine development environment. Once perfected, it can also be scaled up to start meeting the 600N and perhaps even the 1000N thrust ranges. Once thus up-scaled, it will start matching the criteria for military PGM's etc. I suspect that Umbani/Al-Tariq or Raptor III could be a potential receiver of these higher thrust turbines - this will dramatically extend their range and combat flexibility. Naturally various existing and new UAV's being developed could benefit from this gas turbine range.
> 
> The bottom pic is my own - the top pic shows the difference in physical size to the project Apartment turbine and is off of the CAT website. There are some differences in the pics of each one respectively, more than likely earlier and later development versions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-307964
> =============================================
> So while the above micro gas turbine is in essence more aimed at the hobby market and as a test bed (and perhaps for smaller PGM/UAV applications), this 1000N (1kN) turbojet is a much more serious design in terms of military applications. It was as of August 2016 in the detailed design phase, so it should by now be something pretty real. Quoting from a CSIR dossier, the following relates to both this turbojet, as well as the above posted micro turbine:
> 
> "the core for both designs are based on mixed flow compressor design, simultaneously enabling high mass flow and pressure ratios in single stages. The compressors that have been tested thus far all show that the designs should meet their targets. The technology has many potential applications and spin-offs."
> 
> Later the article goes on further to say:
> 
> "there are many variant designs possible; for instance, by adding turbine stages or converting the engine to bypass engines with higher thrust for helicopter applications and UAVs, respectively".
> 
> Speaking to the principal engineer, he told me that they has specifically gone the turbojet route with the 1 kN project as it was a rough and tough design that could pretty much handle anything thrown at it. My pic below depicts a 1:1 scale model of the turbojet, made using a 3D printing process. It's a fair bit larger than the 200N design - at about a third longer and much wider IIRC. He also indicated that the combustion chamber could easily be lengthened, allowing for in-flight relight, or more importantly for military purposes - the ability to launch at high altitudes. This I think perhaps alludes to the project Apartment's potential short-coming, in that it might only have been capable of ground start/launch (in a high oxygen density environment). I assume project Apartment would have been further developed for air launch - but before that could happen the French stepped in and offered us their Micro Turbo turbine (initially denied to us, but when they saw we were getting it right on our own....). As mentioned above the new turbine could grow into a far more powerful one, including a bypass version.
> 
> The new turbojet does not have any oil mist lubrication in order to comply with international ITAR regulations, it's current theoretically calculated range without any lubrication is about 300km's. There is however certainly a requirement for a much higher thrust design than just 1kN, so we are definitely going to see more from this project in the future.
> 
> I was told that the (black) air inlet portion at the front of the turbojet was simply added on to the model for demonstration purposes only, and certainly is not something that has been correctly calculated and tested in any way.
> 
> I think I might have some more info on it somewhere, as soon as I find it I will post more on this project....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-308090
> ================================================
> As can be seen by the big change in the internal layout, a different direction in it's design has been taken (compare to my post #180), it's now much more conventional in it's layout and is also pretty much frozen in terms of it's final design - It's about 50cm long and 25cm wide. Testing of the compressor section is scheduled for March 2019, and I guess that the complete system will have been tested (fully?) by the end of 2019. One of the designers told me that he would more than likely scale it up (3,3 kN I mentioned in post #180?), and then go on to use it as a core for a turbofan model/version.
> 
> *I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?
> 
> 
> 
> *
> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...types-projects-concepts-etc.21179/post-336825


Well, of the countries making cruise missiles today, only Turkey and Pakistan lack their own miniature turbojet propulsion. However, Turkey has its own project(s); so that basically leaves Pakistan. And since CSIR started its project, Pakistan unveiled the Ra'ad 2, Babur 3, Harba, Zarb, and Babur Version 2.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, of the countries making cruise missiles today, only Turkey and Pakistan lack their own miniature turbojet propulsion. However, Turkey has its own project(s); so that basically leaves Pakistan. And since CSIR started its project, Pakistan unveiled the Ra'ad 2, Babur 3, Harba, Zarb, and Babur Version 2.


While work on a supersonic cruise missile continues.

Im sure we have achieved self reliance in this field.

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## Fawadqasim1

We need an excellent turbofan engine for our cms

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, of the countries making cruise missiles today, only Turkey and Pakistan lack their own miniature turbojet propulsion. However, Turkey has its own project(s); so that basically leaves Pakistan. And since CSIR started its project, Pakistan unveiled the Ra'ad 2, Babur 3, Harba, Zarb, and Babur Version 2.



This might be the next surprise but tell no one! 

Stealth Ra'ad!

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## Safriz

Path-Finder said:


> This might be the next surprise but tell no one!
> 
> Stealth Ra'ad!


Raad in Its current form is already stealth..

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Guys, I'm assuming that you're the people who understand these things. I wonder how many miles of this missile can drive a 3200N power and have 5-hour engine.


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## Bratva

http://www.nust.edu.pk/Research/Research Linkages/Pages/National.aspx

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## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Guys, I'm assuming that you're the people who understand these things. I wonder how many miles of this missile can drive a 3200N power and have 5-hour engine.


KSA can also offer indigenous turbofans in 3.5kn and 5.35kn class but the latter has too much unneeded thrust. Hoping that there could be a JV for future cruise missile using KSA engine, and Pakistan expertise in cruise missiles for stealthy cruise missile for JF-17, and KSA platforms.

787 lbs of thrust





1202 lbs of thrust

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## Falcon26

Bratva said:


> View attachment 591852
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nust.edu.pk/Research/Research Linkages/Pages/National.aspx



some interesting projects in that list. Thanks for sharing @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> KSA can also offer indigenous turbofans in 3.5kn and 5.35kn class but the latter has too much unneeded thrust. Hoping that there could be a JV for future cruise missile using KSA engine, and Pakistan expertise in cruise missiles for stealthy cruise missile for JF-17, and KSA platforms.
> 
> 787 lbs of thrust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1202 lbs of thrust



Even if we have a great relationship with Ksa, the country that owns a licensed model can impose an embargo against us. I mean, even if we didn't do it ourselves, we'd never take it from you. At risk of embargo, there are European countries like France, which are already much better producers.


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## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Even if we have a great relationship with Ksa, the country that owns a licensed model can impose an embargo against us. I mean, even if we didn't do it ourselves, we'd never take it from you. At risk of embargo, there are European countries like France, which are already much better producers.


Talking about PK, not Turkey. KSA relationship with Turkey is garbage because of politics. KSA doesn't have a licensed model, it took roughly 3 years to finish development of joint project between Brazil's turbomachine. IT HAS *FULL IP*.


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## Path-Finder

Philip the Arab said:


> KSA can also offer indigenous turbofans in 3.5kn and 5.35kn class but the latter has too much unneeded thrust. Hoping that there could be a JV for future cruise missile using KSA engine, and Pakistan expertise in cruise missiles for stealthy cruise missile for JF-17, and KSA platforms.
> 
> 787 lbs of thrust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1202 lbs of thrust






@denel


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> Talking about PK, not Turkey. KSA relationship with Turkey is garbage because of politics. KSA doesn't have a licensed model, it took roughly 3 years to finish development of joint project between Brazil's turbomachine. IT HAS *FULL IP*.



When you enter the FULL IP crap, there are many people who think that the T70 and F16 are domestic, but it doesn't. Even after more than $ 3 billion spent in T129, it was revealed that the transmission was produced in Italy until 1.5-2 years ago. Turbine engines are made up of many parts and you need more than $ 10 billion to license all parts on your behalf.


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## Philip the Arab

Path-Finder said:


> @denel


What model is that?



RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> When you enter the FULL IP crap, there are many people who think that the T70 and F16 are domestic, but it doesn't. Even after more than $ 3 billion spent in T129, it was revealed that the transmission was produced in Italy until 1.5-2 years ago. Turbine engines are made up of many parts and you need more than $ 10 billion to license all parts on your behalf.


The program took almost 3 years and involved manufacturing of facilities, and TOT. Brazil is NOT Italy, they need money and are willing to give TOT for the right price and are becoming allies of KSA and trying to get into OPEC.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, of the countries making cruise missiles today, only Turkey and Pakistan lack their own miniature turbojet propulsion. However, Turkey has its own project(s); so that basically leaves Pakistan. And since CSIR started its project, Pakistan unveiled the Ra'ad 2, Babur 3, Harba, Zarb, and Babur Version 2.


You can buy COTS JetCat engines that are impossible to sanction and are similar to South African ones above.
I would sure like a LOCAAS type cruise missile that only needs a small engine

Motor: 30 lbf (130 N) thrust class turbojet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Cost_Autonomous_Attack_System





Weight: 100 lb (45 kg)

Length: 36 in (910 mm)
Speed: 200 knots (370 km/h)
Search altitude: 750 ft (230 m)
Footprint: 25 sq nmi (86 km2)
Motor: 30 lbf (130 N) thrust class turbojet.
Range: >100 nmi (190 km)
Loiter time: 30 min max.
Guidance: GPS/INS with LADAR terminal seeker
Warhead: 7.7 kg (17 lb) multi-mode explosively formed projectile (long rod penetrator, aerostable slug or fragmentation)[3]




Using a COTS engine like this would be perfect solution.


https://carf-models.com/en/products/jetcat-p140-rx

32 LB @ 125,000 RPM


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> What model is that?
> 
> 
> The program took almost 3 years and involved manufacturing of facilities, and TOT. Brazil is NOT Italy, they need money and are willing to give TOT for the right price and are becoming allies of KSA and trying to get into OPEC.
> 
> 
> You can buy COTS JetCat engines that are impossible to sanction and are similar to South African ones above.
> I would sure like a LOCAAS type cruise missile that only needs a small engine
> 
> Motor: 30 lbf (130 N) thrust class turbojet.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Cost_Autonomous_Attack_System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weight: 100 lb (45 kg)
> 
> Length: 36 in (910 mm)
> Speed: 200 knots (370 km/h)
> Search altitude: 750 ft (230 m)
> Footprint: 25 sq nmi (86 km2)
> Motor: 30 lbf (130 N) thrust class turbojet.
> Range: >100 nmi (190 km)
> Loiter time: 30 min max.
> Guidance: GPS/INS with LADAR terminal seeker
> Warhead: 7.7 kg (17 lb) multi-mode explosively formed projectile (long rod penetrator, aerostable slug or fragmentation)[3]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using a COTS engine like this would be perfect solution.
> 
> 
> https://carf-models.com/en/products/jetcat-p140-rx
> 
> 32 LB @ 125,000 RPM


South African small would be nice but we have get with TOT if possible, US engine would have least chance to get in view of current relation with Russia, and why we could get Chinese engine with TOT for Babar, this is a best bet if we get


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## Philip the Arab

seven0seven said:


> South African small would be nice but we have get with TOT if possible, US engine would have least chance to get in view of current relation with Russia, and why we could get Chinese engine with TOT for Babar, this is a best bet if we get


Jetcat is commercial engine from a German company that is impossible to be sanctioned, and is cheap. I would definitely go for it if I was trying to develop a small cm.


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Jetcat is commercial engine from a German company that is impossible to be sanctioned, and is cheap. I would definitely go for it if I was trying to develop a small cm.


We need a small turbofan for long range cruise missiles, we ain't need a small CM up to 100 km because we have precision guided glide bombs like H-2 range 60 km/H-4 with a range of 120 Km and RECK with a range of 70-80 km


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## Philip the Arab

seven0seven said:


> We need a small turbofan for long range cruise missiles, we ain't need a small CM up to 100 km because we have precision guided glide bombs like H-2 range 60 km/H-4 with a range of 120 Km and RECK with a range of 70-80 km


Ground launching can be useful though, Imagine a truck with the ability to launch 10 small 100km range CMs.


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Ground launching can be useful though, Imagine a truck with the ability to launch 10 small 100km range CMs.


We don't need such type weapons though, its useful only on destroying enemy radars (Fixed) which are deep inside enemy land where this weapon can't able to reach


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## Philip the Arab

seven0seven said:


> We don't need such type weapons though, its useful only on destroying enemy radars (Fixed) which are deep inside enemy land where this weapon can't able to reach


Also, airbases within 100km which are numerous.


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Also, airbases within 100km which are numerous.


In India Pakistan scenario main bases is well beyond 100 km radius, only forward bases within the 100 km radius which lack top notch radars/equipment, and we have RAAD/BABAR CM if fired from safe distance from enemy attack like from Baluchistan its easily disable those airbases at war


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Philip the Arab said:


> Also, airbases within 100km which are numerous.


In that case, we have MLRS like A-100 (120+km range), Nasr 90 (tactical/conventional) & short ranged battlefield missiles.
And soon a new AMLRS.

100km ground launched CMs make no sense.



seven0seven said:


> We need a small turbofan for long range cruise missiles, we ain't need a small CM up to 100 km because we have precision guided glide bombs like H-2 range 60 km/H-4 with a range of 120 Km and RECK with a range of 70-80 km


REK has a range of 100KM.





And H series arent the only PGMs in service. We have a few others in production too.

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## Ultima Thule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> REK has a range of 100KM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And H series arent the only PGMs in service. We have a few others in production too.


thanks sir but name few other that have that have 100+ km range


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## DESERT FIGHTER

seven0seven said:


> thanks sir but name few other that have that have 100+ km range


Takbir






H4


And another unnamed weapon which looks like our version of GBU.






This one was also marketed at IDEAS. Im trying to find that pic.

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## Ultima Thule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Takbir
> View attachment 591917
> 
> 
> 
> H4
> 
> 
> And another unnamed weapon which looks like our version of GBU.
> View attachment 591918
> 
> 
> 
> This one was also marketed at IDEAS. Im trying to find that pic.


thanks sir

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## DESERT FIGHTER

seven0seven said:


> thanks sir


Dont call me sir yaar. We are probably the same age.


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## Ultima Thule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Dont call me sir yaar. We are probably the same age.


my age is 42 and yours

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## DESERT FIGHTER

seven0seven said:


> my age is 42 and yours


Im almost 30. I guess I should be calling you sir.


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## Ultima Thule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im almost 30. I guess I should be calling you sir.


 you can called me big bro not sir my little bro


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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> you can called me big bro not sir my little bro


Oye hoye 42? Ap to uncle ho


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Oye hoye 42? Ap to uncle ho


No, there is no uncle or aunt in PDF, we are brothers and sisters here on PDF, and what is your age can i ask you bro


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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> No, there is no uncle or aunt in PDF, we are brothers and sisters here on PDF, and what is your age can i ask you bro


23


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 23


i am your big bro then

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## Zarvan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile) 

USA Tomahawk has three versions with three different ranges. One has 2500 KM range second version has 1800 KM range and third one has 1300 KM range. Pakistan should have at least 1800 KM Land Attack and Naval Version of Babur. Also increasing the warhead size specially nuclear one so it can carry 150 to 200 KT warhead.


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## Fawadqasim1

Zarvan said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)
> 
> USA Tomahawk has three versions with three different ranges. One has 2500 KM range second version has 1800 KM range and third one has 1300 KM range. Pakistan should have at least 1800 KM Land Attack and Naval Version of Babur. Also increasing the warhead size specially nuclear one so it can carry 150 to 200 KT warhead.


For a 150 to 200 KT TN weapon the size and weight concerned we will need a few hot tests and for the ranges mentioned above we will need an excellent turbofan engine among others.
P.s how are you sir


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## Zarvan

Fawadqasim1 said:


> For a 150 to 200 KT TN weapon the size and weight concerned we will need a few hot tests and for the ranges mentioned above we will need an excellent turbofan engine among others.
> P.s how are you sir


I am good. And yes we would need a great engine but for true second strike capability Cruise Missile with at least 1800 KM range and warhead capacity I mean nuclear warhead of 150 to 200 KT is must and also for conventional strikes these are must along with Submarines and Destroyers which have VLS to carry these long range land attack Cruise Missiles.

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## Abid123

Zarvan said:


> I am good. And yes we would need a great engine but for true second strike capability Cruise Missile with at least 1800 KM range and warhead capacity I mean nuclear warhead of 150 to 200 KT is must and also for conventional strikes these are must along with Submarines and Destroyers which have VLS to carry these long range land attack Cruise Missiles.


Pakistan needs to increase range to 2500 km. Need to have atleast 1000 conventional babur cruise missiles.

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