# Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian occupation of Kashmir



## PakShah

Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir
NEW YORK, Nov 12 (APP): Renowned Indian novelist and political activist Arundhati Roy Friday made a strong case for Kashmiri people&#8217;s right to self-determination before an American audience, with an impassioned call for an end to the &#8220;brutal&#8221; Indian occupation of Kashmir. &#8220;I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self- determination&#8212;they have the right to choose who they want to be, and how they want to be,&#8221; she said in the course of a discussion on &#8216;Kashmir: The Case for Freedom&#8217; at Asia Society. &#8220;Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored,&#8221; Roy told a large number of people jampacking an auditorium. &#8220;While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,&#8221; said. &#8220;It (the occupation) turns us into a people who
are able to bear a kind of morally reprehensible behaviour done in our name, and the fact that so few Indians will stand up and say anything about it is such a sad thing.&#8221; 

She called for the demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. &#8220;Why the international community doesn&#8217;t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn&#8217;t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.&#8221; 
In her remarks, she lamented the fact that so little is known about the atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children. 
More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities, The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq, she pointed out. 
Two other Indian scholars&#8212;noted writer Pankaj Mishra and a Ph.D student, Mohamad Junaid ,from Indian-held Kashmir&#8212;also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people. 
Both Mishra and Junaid read out their respective papers containing moving stories of the Kashmiri victims of brutalities of Indian occupation forces. Under the Indian military rule in Kashmir, Roy added, freedom of speech is non-existent, and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and
press controlled. She said the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel were harassed and terrorized people with impunity. 
Disappearances were almost a daily occurrence as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred. Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights. 
India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge&#8212;a prospect the West feared. 
That&#8217;s why India had made no effort to bring back to the valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled to camps in New Delhi at the height of the 1998 uprising in the state. &#8220;Aren&#8217;t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?&#8221;
&#8220;Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring&#8212;three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,&#8221; she said, adding that the Indian army or the security forces were not looking away; they were killing young children. 
Roy acknowledged that Islamic sentiment was prevalent in Kashmir, but the Kashmiris were not radical Islamists, Wahabis or jihadists as India portrayed them. In this regard, she strongly deplored the Indian attempts to demonize Kashmiris who were moderate Muslims. She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing &#8220;consternation&#8221; in India over the remark, Obama hasn&#8217;t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.Despite the threat of being slapped with sedition cases, Roy told the Americans that Kashmir was not an integral part of India, as New Delhi claimed. She reiterated that Kashmir was never part of India historically.
Secularism was a misnomer in India, she said, citing the killing of Muslims and other minorities across the country. Was the killing spree in Gujerat several years ago represented secularism, she asked. India should find some other word for secularism.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know why I can't post on Dance's thread, so I decided to repost it here.


Well, Arundhati Roy is one of the few Indians I actually respect.

Arundhati Roy is a true *Indian patriot*, she wants territorial disputes that India has to be solved according to* just and moral principles*.

She knows her government is *unjust and tyrannical.* 

She deserves to be a citizen of a better country.

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

this is the third time this thread has been started, nobody is showing any interest dude.....give up...


----------



## PakShah

Shadow_Hunter said:


> this is the third time this thread has been started, nobody is showing any interest dude.....give up...



Thats what you think. Wake up! This is 2011, not 1962 where the Indian government can perpetually lie to the Indian masses.

Arundhati Roy is a true INDIAN PATRIOT. Shes knows the truth.

She knows Pakistan, China, and Nepal will never give up, because they have the moral argument and upper hand.


India has no arguments to support her stand.

India is the odd man of Asia. It is without surprise SCO hasn't reached it's full potential yet.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tshering22

> She deserves to be the citizen of a better country.



You can take her as your most honorable citizen. We don't want this dirt pile in our land. Don't be surprised if you read news about how she was found near a sewage plant still and not moving. Traitors like this will be taken out sooner than you think.

---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------




PakShah said:


> Thats what you think. Wake up! This is 2011, not 1962 where the Indian government can perpetually lie to the Indian masses.
> 
> Arundhati Roy is a true INDIAN PATRIOT. Shes knows the truth.
> 
> She knows Pakistan, China, and Nepal will never give up, because they have the moral argument and upper hand.
> 
> 
> India has no arguments to support her stand.
> 
> India is the odd man of Asia. It is without surprise SCO hasn't reached it's full potential yet.



What is stopping you then? Now you have another hero with you in the name of Suzanna Arundhati Roy


----------



## Paan Singh

PakShah said:


> Thats what you think. Wake up! This is 2011, not 1962 where the Indian government can perpetually lie to the Indian masses.
> 
> Arundhati Roy is a true INDIAN PATRIOT. Shes knows the truth.
> 
> She knows Pakistan, China, and Nepal will never give up, because they have the moral argument and upper hand.
> 
> 
> India has no arguments to support her stand.
> 
> India is the odd man of Asia. It is without surprise SCO hasn't reached it's full potential yet.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## PakShah

Tshering22 said:


> You can take her as your most honorable citizen. We don't want this dirt pile in our land. Don't be surprised if you read news about how she was found near a sewage plant still and not moving. Traitors like this will be taken out sooner than you think.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> What is stopping you then? Now you have another hero with you in the name of Suzanna Arundhati Roy



Why because Arundhati Roy is one of the few Indians who calls a spade a spade?

Its no wonder why all the South Asian countries detest India.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Prism said:


>



don't reply to the thread dude...it will go away......


----------



## 53fd

Brave woman Arundhati Roy!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> Brave woman Arundhati Roy!



Incredible brave woman you mean bilalbhai. there are good indians and she is one of them

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Pakistanisage

Indian held Kashmir should be liberated. India should pay reparations to Kashmiris for decades of enslavement and attrocities.


----------



## Paan Singh

Aryan_B said:


> Incredible brave woman you mean bilalbhai. there are good indians and she is one of them



take her ..i hope when she will praise ttp and al qaeda..then u will get lessons

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## RockyX

Pakistanisage said:


> Indian held Kashmir should be liberated. India should pay reparations to Kashmiris for decades of enslavement and attrocities.



There is only 1 solution.

Pakistan should attack India with full force. Ask for help from your friend too. If we lost our Kashmir to Pakistan, It would be yours and in that process if we take back Pakistan occupied Kashmir, It would be ours permanently. Whoever wins will keep it.  There is no other solution and Hope Pakistan will try only left solution otherwise keep posting for next 100 years and nothing will happen. Let see who wins

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## 53fd

I guess Indians have brought Pakistan into this thread as well, which has got nothing to do with it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Shadow_Hunter said:


> don't reply to the thread dude...it will go away......



Well you mean like this?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SMC

Tshering22 said:


> You can take her as your most honorable citizen. We don't want this dirt pile in our land. Don't be surprised if you read news about how she was found near a sewage plant still and not moving. Traitors like this will be taken out sooner than you think.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> What is stopping you then? Now you have another hero with you in the name of Suzanna Arundhati Roy





So she's a traitor for saying this?  And bharatis start getting angry when a Pakistani calls one our far left wing journalist a traitor. What a bunch of hypocrites these guys are. Surely it's your genes, no? I've never seen a group of people are hypocritical as the bharatis.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> I guess Indians have brought Pakistan into this thread as well, which has got nothing to do with it.



yes bilalbhai you know they are incredibley off topic. A Roy is right. A true honest Indian if i ever saw one i must say


----------



## PakShah

Arundhati Roy speaking.

Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir
NEW YORK, Nov 12 (APP): Renowned Indian novelist and political activist Arundhati Roy Friday made a strong case for Kashmiri people&#8217;s right to self-determination before an American audience, with an impassioned call for an end to the &#8220;brutal&#8221; Indian occupation of Kashmir. &#8220;I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self- determination&#8212;they have the right to choose who they want to be, and how they want to be,&#8221; she said in the course of a discussion on &#8216;Kashmir: The Case for Freedom&#8217; at Asia Society. &#8220;Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored,&#8221; Roy told a large number of people jampacking an auditorium. &#8220;While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,&#8221; said. &#8220;It (the occupation) turns us into a people who
are able to bear a kind of morally reprehensible behaviour done in our name, and the fact that so few Indians will stand up and say anything about it is such a sad thing.&#8221;

She called for the demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. &#8220;Why the international community doesn&#8217;t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn&#8217;t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.&#8221;
In her remarks, she lamented the fact that so little is known about the atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.
More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities, The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq, she pointed out.
Two other Indian scholars&#8212;noted writer Pankaj Mishra and a Ph.D student, Mohamad Junaid ,from Indian-held Kashmir&#8212;also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people.
Both Mishra and Junaid read out their respective papers containing moving stories of the Kashmiri victims of brutalities of Indian occupation forces. Under the Indian military rule in Kashmir, Roy added, freedom of speech is non-existent, and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and
press controlled. She said the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel were harassed and terrorized people with impunity.
Disappearances were almost a daily occurrence as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred. Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights.
India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge&#8212;a prospect the West feared.
That&#8217;s why India had made no effort to bring back to the valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled to camps in New Delhi at the height of the 1998 uprising in the state. &#8220;Aren&#8217;t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?&#8221;
&#8220;Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring&#8212;three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,&#8221; she said, adding that the Indian army or the security forces were not looking away; they were killing young children.
Roy acknowledged that Islamic sentiment was prevalent in Kashmir, but the Kashmiris were not radical Islamists, Wahabis or jihadists as India portrayed them. In this regard, she strongly deplored the Indian attempts to demonize Kashmiris who were moderate Muslims. She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing &#8220;consternation&#8221; in India over the remark, Obama hasn&#8217;t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.Despite the threat of being slapped with sedition cases, Roy told the Americans that Kashmir was not an integral part of India, as New Delhi claimed. She reiterated that Kashmir was never part of India historically.
Secularism was a misnomer in India, she said, citing the killing of Muslims and other minorities across the country. Was the killing spree in Gujerat several years ago represented secularism, she asked. India should find some other word for secularism.

Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian


----------



## majesticpankaj

RockyX said:


> There is only 1 solution.
> 
> Pakistan should attack India with full force. Ask for help from your friend too. If we lost our Kashmir to Pakistan, It would be yours and in that process if we take back Pakistan occupied Kashmir, It would be ours permanently. Whoever wins will keep it.  There is no other solution and Hope Pakistan will try only left solution otherwise keep posting for next 100 years and nothing will happen. Let see who wins



That is the most logical solution I guess. Pak army should attack India and take Kashmir "Back" and provide them better and secure future than under Indian rule because Indian would never let them go .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dalai Lama

bilalhaider said:


> I guess Indians have brought Pakistan into this thread as well, which has got nothing to do with it.



Oh, Pakistan has nothing to do with Kashmir? 

Kay thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

India is Not an Enemy of Pakistan - PAF Chief - YouTube

true Pakistani... patriot ...for us and traitor for you

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## RockyX

majesticpankaj said:


> That is the most logical solution I guess. Pak army should attack India and take Kashmir "Back" and provide them better and secure future than under Indian rule because Indian would never let them go .



I think Pakistan is not interested in Kashmir. They should try to attack India in order to take Kashmir. Let see who takes whose Kashmir. 

What happened after 64 years ??? Nothing. It would become extremely difficult for Pakistan once our Defence,Diplomacy and economy will become very strong. I am sure, it will and it's matter of few years. You can't negotiate against strong opponent. Once we will become very strong, we will move towards P.0.K. and won't compromise on that. So it's better if Pakistan really has desire of Indian Kashmir, Attack and try last effort to take back now without wasting any time. Otherwise they will regret later


----------



## cyphercide

The way Mrs. Arundhati Roy thinks;


India is on a massive anti-corruption drive,Everybody from corporate bigwigs to political heavy weights are getting the slammer.Anna Hazare captures the imagination of the entire nation....

Mrs Roy's mind blurbs# "Oh no!!!How ever will I ever sell fake*ss analogies on Outlook if India moves on prosperity?Time to stir some sh*t up and accuse the old man who's getting all the media publicity that I should be getting!"

India and Pakistan are moving through their peace process at a mind-numbing pace.Things have reached on such a unbelievable level that ironically India and Pakistan seem to be rooting for each other on the international arena.A permanent regional solution seems just around the horizon....

Mrs Roy's mind blurbs# "Oh no!!!How ever will I ever sell fake*ss analogies on Outlook if peace is given a chance.Time to stir some sh*t up before this Krishna and Rabbani steal all the media publicity that I should be getting!"


----------



## danger007

A Khan: Immaturity of Pakistanis - YouTube

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PakShah

*Kashmir struggle for justice, peace: Arundhati Roy
*

London, June 15: Famous Indian author and right activist Arundhati Roy has reiterated her support for the independence of Kashmir. 
&#8220;Kashmir struggle is for justice and peace,&#8221; she said during her meeting with a delegation of Kashmir leaders in London. 
The Kashmiri delegation which called on her comprised Executive Director Kashmir American Council, Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai, Senior Vice President World Kashmir Freedom Movement, Nazir Ahmed Quershi and Tehreek-e-Kashmir UK President, Muhammad Ghalib. 
They expressed their profound gratitude for her courageous and unflinching support to the struggle of Kashmiri peoples&#8217; right to self determination. She assured the delegation that she would raise her voice in favour of Kashmiris at every available platform of the world. 
She said Kashmir issue is misunderstood both in India and abroad and it needs to be presented and projected in the right context. 
Earlier briefing the Indian author and Booker Prize Winner, the members of the delegation appreciated her efforts. They said peace and prosperity in South Asian region hinged on peaceful settlement of Jammu and Kashmir conflict in accordance with the aspiration of Kashmiri people. 
Terming her a first strong voice in India on human and fundamental rights of Kashmiri people, the members of delegation said Kashmiris were indebted to her for courageous stand on Kashmir issue.

Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:30:00 Mecca time 
Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT
Lastupdate on : Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:00:00 IST

Kashmir struggle for justice peace Arundhati Roy Lastupdate:- Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com


----------



## danger007

Kargil War-Pakistan-Muh Mein Allha Allha Bagal Mein Kargil Churi Must Watch - YouTube

---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------




PakShah said:


> *Kashmir struggle for justice, peace: Arundhati Roy
> *
> 
> London, June 15: Famous Indian author and right activist Arundhati Roy has reiterated her support for the independence of Kashmir.
> &#8220;Kashmir struggle is for justice and peace,&#8221; she said during her meeting with a delegation of Kashmir leaders in London.
> The Kashmiri delegation which called on her comprised Executive Director Kashmir American Council, Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai, Senior Vice President World Kashmir Freedom Movement, Nazir Ahmed Quershi and Tehreek-e-Kashmir UK President, Muhammad Ghalib.
> They expressed their profound gratitude for her courageous and unflinching support to the struggle of Kashmiri peoples&#8217; right to self determination. She assured the delegation that she would raise her voice in favour of Kashmiris at every available platform of the world.
> She said Kashmir issue is misunderstood both in India and abroad and it needs to be presented and projected in the right context.
> Earlier briefing the Indian author and Booker Prize Winner, the members of the delegation appreciated her efforts. They said peace and prosperity in South Asian region hinged on peaceful settlement of Jammu and Kashmir conflict in accordance with the aspiration of Kashmiri people.
> Terming her a first strong voice in India on human and fundamental rights of Kashmiri people, the members of delegation said Kashmiris were indebted to her for courageous stand on Kashmir issue.
> 
> Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:30:00 Mecca time
> Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT
> Lastupdate on : Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:00:00 IST
> 
> Kashmir struggle for justice peace Arundhati Roy Lastupdate:- Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com




too much arundhati roy fans. hmm why these people after that old chick.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## PakShah

danger007 said:


> India is Not an Enemy of Pakistan - PAF Chief - YouTube
> 
> true Pakistani... patriot ...for us and traitor for you



Mr. Agha Khan's arguments are absurd. The Nuclear weapons Pakistan has is a Pakistani achievement. Pakistan should never give it up.

You are trolling because you are bringing irrelevant things to the thread. What does Pakistani Nuclear weapons have to do with India?

General Kayani would disagree with this buffoon, because General Kayani would talk on terms of just and moral principles.

And according to just and moral principles, India is an enemy of Pakistan. Just because you quote Stupid Pakistani media, doesn't mean Arundhati Roy is wrong.

In fact it shows how weak you are, because you cannot defeat Arundhati Roy's arguments, Pakistan's arguments, Chinese arguments, and Nepalese arguments.

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------




danger007 said:


> Kargil War-Pakistan-Muh Mein Allha Allha Bagal Mein Kargil Churi Must Watch - YouTube
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too much arundhati roy fans. hmm why these people after that old chick.



That is from Kashmiri media from IOK. It is not biased Indian media.


----------



## lem34

SMC said:


> So she's a traitor for saying this?  And bharatis start getting angry when a Pakistani calls one our far left wing journalist a traitor. What a bunch of hypocrites these guys are. Surely it's your genes, no? I've never seen a group of people are hypocritical as the bharatis.



they have no shame. she is a great woman


----------



## golmaal

PakShah said:


> *Kashmir struggle for justice, peace: Arundhati Roy
> *
> 
> London, June 15: Famous Indian author and right activist Arundhati Roy has reiterated her support for the independence of Kashmir.
> &#8220;Kashmir struggle is for justice and peace,&#8221; she said during her meeting with a delegation of Kashmir leaders in London.
> The Kashmiri delegation which called on her comprised Executive Director Kashmir American Council, Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai, Senior Vice President World Kashmir Freedom Movement, Nazir Ahmed Quershi and Tehreek-e-Kashmir UK President, Muhammad Ghalib.
> They expressed their profound gratitude for her courageous and unflinching support to the struggle of Kashmiri peoples&#8217; right to self determination. She assured the delegation that she would raise her voice in favour of Kashmiris at every available platform of the world.
> She said Kashmir issue is misunderstood both in India and abroad and it needs to be presented and projected in the right context.
> Earlier briefing the Indian author and Booker Prize Winner, the members of the delegation appreciated her efforts. They said peace and prosperity in South Asian region hinged on peaceful settlement of Jammu and Kashmir conflict in accordance with the aspiration of Kashmiri people.
> Terming her a first strong voice in India on human and fundamental rights of Kashmiri people, the members of delegation said Kashmiris were indebted to her for courageous stand on Kashmir issue.
> 
> Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:30:00 Mecca time
> Lastupdate on : Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT
> Lastupdate on : Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:00:00 IST
> 
> Kashmir struggle for justice peace Arundhati Roy Lastupdate:- Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com




Dont worry about our Kashmir .. Our part of Kashmir's infrastructure and people living standard is way better than Paksistan occupied Kashmir part....
Another 1000 years Kashmir will be an integral part of India no one in the world can deny that.. If Pakistan really want control of Kashmir then she need to go war with India and that is impossible on current and future condition..

So keep opening new threads and put you guys wild dreams..


----------



## SMC

Aryan_B said:


> they have no shame. she is a great woman



It's true, they really have no shame. Saying one thing in one topic, and saying the complete opposite in another topic. Not sure what's about these guys. Epic liars and hypocrites these guys are.


----------



## StandForInsaf

Arundhati Roy brave lady , i salute you.


----------



## RockyX

Arundhuti Roy is neither from Defence nor Politician. her view doesn't matter. Agha Khan's opinion are more important as he was associated with Pakistan defence establishment for long time. 

If we are ruling Kashmir forcefully and Pakistan has right then why Pakistan with help of China are not attacking India ?? Attack and take Kashmir. Who is stopping ?? If Pakistan will not take any hard step now then after few years Once our defence will become very strong we will not negotiate for Azad Kashmir, be sure on that.


----------



## PakShah

golmaal said:


> Dont worry about our Kashmir .. Our part of Kashmir's infrastructure and people living standard is way better than Paksistan occupied Kashmir part....
> Another 1000 years Kashmir will be an integral part of India no one in the world can deny that.. If Pakistan really want control of Kashmir then she need to go war with India and that is impossible on current and future condition..
> 
> So keep opening new threads and put you guys wild dreams..



The Kashmiris in IOK don't care about living in luxury. They want their freedom, and they are willing to die for it.


----------



## danger007

PakShah said:


> Mr. Agha Khan's arguments are absurd. The Nuclear weapons Pakistan has is a Pakistani achievement. Pakistan should never give it up.
> 
> You are trolling because you are bringing irrelevant things to the thread. What does Pakistani Nuclear weapons have to do with India?
> 
> General Kayani would disagree with this buffoon, because General Kayani would talk on terms of just and moral principles.
> 
> And according to just and moral principles, India is an enemy of Pakistan. Just because you quote Stupid Pakistani media, doesn't mean Arundhati Roy is wrong.
> 
> In fact it shows how weak you, because you cannot defeat Arundhati Roy's arguments, Pakistan's arguments, Chinese arguments, and Nepalese arguments.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is from Kashmiri media from IOK. It is not biased Indian media.




look whose talking .........


----------



## RockyX

PakShah said:


> The Kashmiris in IOK don't care about living in luxury. They want their freedom, and they are willing die for it.



Then continue your support by posting on PDF. 

Freedom doesn't come by posting on PDF. 

BTW, same thing happening in Baluchistan and we are not even supporting.


----------



## PakShah

danger007 said:


> look whose talking .........



I don't know why Indians keep bringing Mr. Agha Khan, when he is not even in the military anymore. Mr. Agha Khan is not even relevant to the thread. Most Pakistanis believe he is an idiot, because his arguments are not based on just and moral principles.


*Kashmir was NEVER a Part of India - Arundhati Roy
*







---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------




RockyX said:


> Then continue your support by posting on PDF.
> 
> Freedom doesn't come by posting on PDF.
> 
> BTW, same thing happening in Baluchistan and we are not even supporting.



Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir.



*Its Time to Give Up Kashmir Arundhati Roy!!*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RockyX

PakShah said:


> Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir.



May be it will become disputed. Even Durand line. You never know. Politics changes very rapidly. 

Then why no big power like U.S., Russia, Germany, U.K, France supporting you on Kashmir ? Of course if half of the world will agree with you then it would become difficult for us. Isn't it ? But everyone says it's internal matter. Every country has some dispute. Kurdistan to spratly islands. Does it make any difference ?? Not at all. BTW, P.0.K. is also disputed in that sense. 

Historically only WAR can give solution and there is no other way otherwise keep trying for next 100 years and nothing will change.


----------



## danger007

PakShah said:


> I don't know why Indians keep bringing Mr. Agha Khan, when he is not even in the military anymore. Mr. Agha Khan is not even relevant to the thread. Most Pakistanis believe he is an idiot, because his arguments are not based on just and moral principles.
> 
> 
> *Kashmir was NEVER a Part of India - Arundhati Roy
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir.



99.99% Indians wants to kick that chick, and you are praising her. epic fail, still he is an Pakistani and Ex. military but arundhati roy is not a politcian not military officer.


----------



## golmaal

PakShah said:


> The Kashmiris in IOK don't care about living in luxury. They want their freedom, and they are willing die for it.



hahaha.. only small section of the community has some kind of relation with Separatist. Large section of Kashmiris want to join mainstream that's why they are participating elections..They realize that they will not get any life and freedom if support Pakistan. 
Indian govt is making huge investment in J&K state region.. and how many your are investing at Pak Occupied Kashmir ..A Big Zero..
And any of the Kashmiris did not like to live like your people are living in NWFP / ***/ Baluchistan provinces... No Roads, No Institutions, No infrastructure, No food.. 
Tell me one normal reason why do they want to go with Pakistan (a big failed country with daily suicide bombings)


----------



## Karachiite

One of the few good Indians left.


----------



## VelocuR

Be Praise to Arundhati Roy, full of praise! 

She is very powerful role model...I missed AJRT ...


----------



## Donatello

Didn't she get death threats or something? I am surprised she is even alive....considering the nutz like Shiv Sena...


----------



## Kaniska

Army sud f** her eliminate permanently...she is a traitor...


----------



## KS

Karthic calls for an end to Arundati's endless bullshitt on everything under the sun.




bilalhaider said:


> I guess Indians have brought Pakistan into this thread as well, which has got nothing to do with it.



Ofcourse Kashmir is an *Indian internal matter* and Pakistan has absolutely nothing to do with it. Brave Pakistani

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

PakShah said:


>





*Eeeek.....Post her articles..but dont ever post her videos/images.....Her face makes me puke...Such a fugly......*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VSS

RaptorRX707 said:


> Be Praise to Arundhati Roy, full of praise!
> 
> She is very powerful role model...I missed AJRT ...



Take her....ASAp

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jade

Arundhati Roy is just an attention grabber.


----------



## Respect4Respect01

free kashmir from indian,

dont you indians realize that kashmiris dont want to be with you, they want their own country. give them freedom and stop killing innocents.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EastWest

Pakistanisage said:


> Indian held Kashmir should be liberated. India should pay reparations to Kashmiris for decades of enslavement and attrocities.



First u guys start reparations to the millions of indians and hindus u have murdered and raped...then we will think about kashmir

---------- Post added at 05:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 AM ----------




Respect4Respect01 said:


> free kashmir from indian,
> 
> *dont you indians realize that kashmiris dont want to be with you*, they want their own country. give them freedom and stop killing innocents.



just like Balochis who dont want to stay with u guys...they too want their own country


----------



## RazPaK

Chinese hate Indians, Pakistanis hate Indians, Bengalis hate Indians, Sri Lankans hate Indians, and now even Indians hate Indians. Looks like some people didn't get the memo.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 53fd

About 4 days ago:

*Police officers among 35 injured in Kashmir clashes*



> SRINAGAR, Nov 7: Almost three dozen persons including some of the senior police officers were injured as violence clashes broke out between groups of youth and police in South Kashmir&#8217;s Anantnag district and some areas falling in the Old City of Srinagar immediately after the culmination of Eid prayers.
> 
> The clashes between the protesters and police as well as security forces led to panic in entire Anantnag town disrupting Eid festivities for some time since Eid-ul-Azha was celebrated today.
> 
> Police acted swiftly and arrested more than a dozen youth in Anantnag and parts of Old City in Srinagar, who were involved in stone pelting on police and para-military personnel and were raising provocative slogans.
> 
> IGP Kashmir SM Sahai told the Excelsior that the youth indulging in stone pelting and other "undesirable activities&#8217;&#8217; like shouting provocative slogans were arrested by police and lodged in police stations, where cases have been registered against them under various provisions of law.
> 
> Mr Sahai said barring protests at two or three places, Eid celebrations across entire Kashmir valley passed off peacefully. He added that protests after Eid celebrations this year were far more less than the last year.
> 
> The IGP Kashmir said there was no provocation for the youth and they started pelting stones and indulged in sloganeering at two-three places necessitating action against them.
> 
> Reports said that as soon as Eid prayers culminated a group of youth came out on main road in the Janglat Mandi area of Anantnag town. These people wanted to take out a procession from Janglat Mandi chowk to the main Anantnag chowk, but the same was foiled by the posse of police and security forces present there.
> 
> The denial of permission to take out a procession did not go well with the youth and they got infuriated. They raised slogans against the police and Government alleging high handedness from the police and security forces.
> 
> The police personnel including some of the senior officers along with some of the senior CRPF officials tried their best to pacify the agitating youth. They asked the agitators not to push for the procession and asked them to go back their home. However, the agitating youth did not listen to the plea and still wanted to take out a procession.
> 
> These agitating youth divided into smaller groups and started pelting stones on the police and security forces. The Janglat Mandi chowk presented the scene of a virtual battlefield and both the sides got engaged in ding dong battle that continued for many hours. Clashes between the two sides led to disruption in the Eid festivities in the air and some of the people were forced to stay indoors due to the clashes.
> 
> Police and security forces resorted to cane-charge and lobbed smoke shells on the protesters in order to maintain law and order in the Anantnag area. The clashes led to disruption of the normal activities in the area and the movement of traffic both public and private was affected to a large extent.
> 
> Police officials said in the melee at least 35 persons, including Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Anantnag, Ramesh Kumar Jalla, SP (Operations) Zahid Malik, DSP (Operations) Tanveer Jeelani, SHO Anantnag, Liyaqat Khan and Assistant Sub Inspector Riyaz Ahmed along with a Commandant of CRPF and four police constables, were wounded in the clashes.
> 
> Meanwhile, a youth was injured during the police action against the protesters when a group of youth pelted stones on police and security forces in apple rich Sopore town of North Kashmir&#8217;s Baramulla district.
> 
> Reports said that as the Eid congregational prayers finished at the Jamia Masjid in the town, some of the youth assembled and wanted to take a procession towards the main Sopore chowk. This was not allowed by the police and security forces. The denial to take out the procession was not liked by this group of youth and they started pelting stones on the posse of police and security forces.
> 
> The police and security forces retaliated by lobbing smoke shells and before this they tried to disperse the protesters by resorting to lathi-charge.
> 
> Police officials said that the youth was injured during the brief protest as he fell from the stairs of Masjid and fractured his leg. They said the protesters were dispersed and normalcy returned in the area.
> 
> Clashes also erupted between protesters and police and security forces in some areas falling in the old city of Srinagar immediately after the culmination of Eid prayers. The groups of protesters were confronted by police and CRPF personnel stationed in the area to protests.
> 
> Reports said that clashes broke out in Saraf Kadal, Rajouri Kadal and the adjoining areas of the Nalamar road. The clashes carried out for a brief time and the situation turned normal in the area after the protests ended.
> 
> Meanwhile, an unidentified pistol borne militant escaped from a busy area in Anantnag area after he failed to shoot a recruit constable near Mehindi Kadal area in the Anantnag town.
> 
> "An unidentified pistol borne militant tried to shot a recruit constable near Mehindi Kadal, Anantnag, falling under the jurisdiction of police station Saddar, Anantnag. However, the vigilant constable on duty got hold of him and tried to overpower the militant. Due to huge crowd in the market, the militant couldn't fire and managed to escape," a police spokesman said.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...fficers-among-35-injured-kashmir-clashes.html


----------



## LiberalAtheist

there is no such thing as an occupied Kashmir in reality only in Pakistan and in the mind of Pakistanis there is a occupied Kashmir fools i have one question for you if you have a problem with us controlling Kashmir either do something or shut up the lessons of 1965 obviously have not been etched in your minds


----------



## 53fd

PunjabiSidhu said:


> there is no such thing as an occupied Kashmir in reality only in Pakistan and in the mind of Pakistanis there is a occupied Kashmir fools i have one question for you if you have a problem with us controlling Kashmir either do something or shut up the lessons of 1965 obviously have not been etched in your minds



Yes, you're right, there is no such thing as Pakistan occupied Kashmir, I agree with you.


----------



## LiberalAtheist

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, you're right, there is no such thing as Pakistan occupied Kashmir, I agree with you.



there is no occupied Kashmir at all that is my point.


----------



## Developereo

Aryan_B said:


> Incredible brave woman you mean bilalbhai. there are good indians and she is one of them



Yes, and what is most telling is the overwhelming Indian reaction to her. Rather than address the issues she raises, the Indian response is to attack her personally, glorify and promote threats to her life, and to adopt an attitude of denial.

The reason, of course, is that Indians have no response to the facts of Kashmir's brutalization. The only thing they have is blind nationalism and ritualistic chest beating.


----------



## KS

RazPaK said:


> Chinese hate Indians, Pakistanis hate Indians, Bengalis hate Indians, Sri Lankans hate Indians, and now even Indians hate Indians. Looks like some people didn't get the memo.


 
Afghans hate Pakistanis , Iranians hate Paks, Indians hate Paks..did Pak get the memo ?




bilalhaider said:


> Only a few days ago:
> 
> *17 security men injured as clashes mar Eid festivities*



How many times you are going to spam the same news ? Is that what they call attention _______ ?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Roybot

No way, now India is doomed, and there goes Kashmir. 

No one gives a sh*t about what this woman has to say.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Afghans hate Pakistanis , Iranians hate Paks, Indians hate Paks..did Pak get the memo ?



Iranians don't hate Pakistanis. Afghans hate everyone. 



> How many times you are going to spam the same news ? Is that what they call attention _______ ?



I'd say that it's important news, & people should know about what is transpiring in Kashmir in a thread on Kashmir.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Yes, and what is most telling is the overwhelming Indian reaction to her. Rather than address the issues she raises, the Indian response is to attack her personally, glorify and promote threats to her life, and to adopt an attitude of denial.



How many times have Paks attacked Najam Sethi's message or NFP's message than attacking them ?

Whatever they say they immediately become unpatriotic, anti-Army, liberal fascists etc..

A mirror is what you guys sorely need.



Developereo said:


> The reason, of course, is that Indians have no response to the facts of Kashmir's brutalization. The only thing they have is blind nationalism and ritualistic chest beating.


 
Nothing trumps National Sovereignty. Those who are not willing to live under Indian 'occupation' can move to the land that gives them what they want.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> How many times have Paks attacked Najam Sethi's message or NFP's message than attacking them ?



But they aren't threatened of sedition charges in Pakistan like AR is in India.


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> Iranians don't hate Pakistanis. Afghans hate everyone.



Same I can say for Bengalis or Sri Lankans....And no the common Afghan hates the "dal-roti" Pak Punjabi (that is what they call in their forums) more than anything else for causing so much destruction on their nation.



bilalhaider said:


> I'd say that it's important news, & people should know about what is transpiring in Kashmir in a thread on Kashmir.



Posting once is enough. People can read. If the same news is posted again and again it is called spamming.

---------- Post added at 07:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> But they aren't threatened of sedition charges in Pakistan like AR is in India.



That is because they don't ask for Balochistan to go independent of Pakistan. They are true Pakistanis ,who all the while condemning the excesses of the Army, don't call for secession or compromising their national sovereignity.

It does not matter id its Arundati Roy or her baap. Who ever calls for dis-memberment of Indian Union are legally liable to be prosecuted for sedition.That is called Rule of Law.Democracy does not mean giving a free run to hippie anarchists.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Posting once is enough. People can read. If the same news is posted again and again it is called spamming.



Ok, I edited my post. Happy? 



> That is because they don't ask for Balochistan to go independent of Pakistan. They are true Pakistanis ,who all the while condemning the excesses of the Army, don't call for secession or compromising their national sovereignity.



Najam Sethi calls for Baloch separatism as much as AR calls for Kashmiri separatism.


----------



## LiberalAtheist

noone gives 2 shts what this woman says and i still have not got my reply if you guys have a problem with us controlling Kashmir why not do something about it? i guess your leadership still has the painful memory of 1965 stuck in there minds where as the local populace does not because they think they achieved victory in that war i can only pity such fools.


----------



## GORKHALI

AROY again 
My point is who's listning to her plea,I mean now day even Indian news channel don't bother to call her in debate.Last time I heard in CNN IBN ,she was blabbering and repeatin same point again and again like a broken record.


----------



## sarthak

Aryan_B said:


> Incredible brave woman you mean bilalbhai. there are good indians and she is one of them



I guess she is the only good indian then. Because she's the only indian that talks of liberating kashmir


----------



## LiberalAtheist

lol this woman is a Naxalite sympathizer, Israel hater, and she even went as far to criticizing Anna Hazare only those with mental retardation agrees with her views especially those on terrorism in India like 26/11 which she claims is not the work of religious based ideals rather wider issues like poverty unemployment etc


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> Ok, I edited my post. Happy?



Its not that it makes me happy..But just makes you look a little less desperate....posting the same news over and over.



bilalhaider said:


> Najam Sethi calls for Baloch separatism as much as AR calls for Kashmiri separatism.



I dont remember him saying so..he just asks for accountability of the FC and autonomy/development of balochistan.


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Its not that it makes me happy..But just makes you look a little less desperate....



I think Indians should be the last people talking about "repeating news" 



> I dont remember him saying so..he just asks for accountability of the FC and autonomy/development of balochistan.



His words aren't any different from AR's. Neither are Pervez Hoodbhoy's words, who said Pakistan should hand over its nukes, & disband its program. But you don't see him threatened to be charged with sedition, do you?


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> I think Indians should be the last people talking about "repeating news"



And its funny coming from you who just did it few posts back 




bilalhaider said:


> His words aren't any different from AR's. Neither are Pervez Hoodbhoy's words, who said Pakistan should hand over its nukes, & disband its program. But you don't see him threatened to be charged with sedition, do you?



Yes they are different in the sense they dont ask for National sovereignity of Pakistan to be compromised..That is not the case with the anarchist hippie here..

BTW they getting charged or not is not my concern....My concern is if some Indian, whoever it may be, violates Indian law then the Rule of Law will be upheld.Nothing wrong.


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Yes they are different in the sense they dont ask for National sovereignity of Pakistan to be compromised..That is not the case with the anarchist hippie here..



You don't even know the history of Najam Sethi. Najam Sethi fought alongside Baloch nationalists in their armed struggle against the military establishment in 1973-77. So yes, he did much more than AR to compromise Pakistan's national sovereignty. 



> BTW they getting charged or not is not my concern....My concern is if some Indian, whoever it may be, violates Indian law then the Rule of Law will be upheld.Nothing wrong.



Just goes to show how 'free' India is with laws like these


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> How many times have Paks attacked Najam Sethi's message or NFP's message than attacking them ?
> 
> Whatever they say they immediately become unpatriotic, anti-Army, liberal fascists etc..



That's because they don't have an original thought between the two of them. All of their articles are just rehashed Indian/western propaganda. We might as well skip the middlemen and read the original source. In any case, there is a healthy debate within Pakistan about the balance of power between army/civilians, as well as the issue of religious extremism.

A Roy details the Indian army's actions in various internal revolts on people under IA's control. Most democracies keep a close eye on their security forces' excesses -- whether police, paramilitary or army. In India, however, the level of jingoism has reached such heights that anyone who dares stand up for their rights is dismissed as unpatriotic.



KS said:


> Nothing trumps National Sovereignty. Those who are not willing to live under Indian 'occupation' can move to the land that gives them what they want.



This begs the question. The issue itself is that Indian 'sovereignty' is illegitimate in Kashmir.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> You don't even know the history of Najam Sethi. Najam Sethi fought alongside Baloch nationalists in their armed struggle against the military establishment in 1973-77. So yes, he did much more than AR to compromise Pakistan's national sovereignty.



Have any source or is it straight out of your ________ ? 



bilalhaider said:


> Just goes to show how 'free' India is with laws like these



Every nation has its own laws to protect the National Integrity...India is a Democracy, not an Anarchy..What you say is an anarchist society where every Tom Dick and Harry can preach sedition..If a case is filed against her it just shows the Rule of Law is still there in India.


----------



## Developereo

PunjabiSidhu said:


> i still have not got my reply if you guys have a problem with us controlling Kashmir why not do something about it?



My approach would be to expose the truth about Indian occupation and brutality to the world through mass media. The whole concept of soft power is alien to the Pakistani establishment, and that has been India's greatest advantage over Pakistan.


----------



## IndoCarib

Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian occupation of Kashmir and Pakistanis getting excited, as if India will give up Kashmir ! Get this straight, Ms. Roy does not represent India just like Ajmal Kasab doesnt represent Pakistan


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> That's because they don't have an original thought between the two of them. All of their articles are just rehashed Indian/western propaganda. We might as well skip the middlemen and read the original source. In any case, there is a healthy debate within Pakistan about the balance of power between army/civilians, as well as the issue of religious extremism.



You just proved what I accused you people of.



Developereo said:


> A Roy details the Indian army's actions in various internal revolts on people under IA's control. Most democracies keep a close eye on their security forces' excesses -- whether police, paramilitary or army. In India, however, the level of jingoism has reached such heights that anyone who dares stand up for their rights is dismissed as unpatriotic.



A Roy is not given credence because she only focusses on one side of the story and worse still exaggerates it to such hyperbole by inserting her own imagination,prejudices that not even her peers give her any credibility.

And as for standing up for their 'right', their 'rights' are not absolute and *with every right comes a duty* towards the state. Dont do the duty, dont claim the right.Its really that simple.




Developereo said:


> This begs the question. The issue itself is that Indian 'sovereignty' is illegitimate in Kashmir.



We don't think so.


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Have any source or is it straight out of your ________ ?



It is common knowledge that he supported the Baloch national movement, & was caught by the forces, & remained a political prisoner from 1975-77.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> My approach would be to expose the truth about Indian occupation and brutality to the world through mass media. The whole concept of soft power is alien to the Pakistani establishment, and that has been India's greatest advantage over Pakistan.



Pakistan exposing the 'Indian brutality' comes with the real risk of theirs getting exposed as well. Beware !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> It is common knowledge that he supported the Baloch national movement, & was caught by the forces, & remained a political prisoner from 1975-77.



I'm just asking for a credible source.

BTW wasnt he imprisoned in 1999 by Nawaz for 'treason' ?


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> You just proved what I accused you people of.



Hardly. Let me spell it out.

If source 'A' makes a claim, then that claim needs to be addressed. In Pakistan's case, it has been done numerous times.

Now, if 'B' and 'C' simply parrot A's claims without adding anything new of their own, then they don't deserve a separate rebuttal. They can be dismissed as irrelevant, opportunistic parrots.



KS said:


> A Roy is not given credence because she only focusses on one side of the story and worse still exaggerates it to such hyperbole by inserting her own imagination,prejudices that not even her peers dont give her any credibility.



She never claims to be a journalist, but an advocate. The latter, by definition, advocates a particular position. It is then up to journalists or others to present the rebuttal. That does not happen; instead we get threats about sedition, death, etc.



KS said:


> And as for standing up for their 'right', their 'rights' are not absolute and *with every right comes a duty* towards the state. Dont do the duty, dont claim the right.Its really that simple.



But they do not wish to be part of the state to begin with. The rights they are demanding are not their rights as Indian citizens, hence there is no 'duty' towards the Indian state. They specifically reject any connection with the Indian state.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> Pakistan exposing the 'Indian brutality' comes with the real risk of theirs getting exposed as well. Beware !



India and the West have been doing that for a long time. It's time to return the favor.


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> I'm just asking for a credible source.
> 
> BTW wasnt he imprisoned in 1999 by Nawaz for 'treason' ?



He was a political prisoner from 1975-77 for supporting the Baloch nationalist movement against the Pakistan forces. 

Najam Sethi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was imprisoned for a month for treason charges by the Nawaz government, but freed by the Supreme Court in about a month.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Hardly. Let me spell it out.
> 
> If source 'A' makes a claim, then that claim needs to be addressed. In Pakistan's case, it has been done numerous times.
> 
> Now, if 'B' and 'C' simply parrot A's claims without adding anything new of their own, then they don't deserve a separate rebuttal. They can be dismissed as irrelevant, opportunistic parrots.



Then I can very well say A Roy 'parrots' the claim of Pakistanis.




Developereo said:


> She never claims to be a journalist, but an advocate. The latter, by definition, advocates a particular position. It is then up to journalists or others to present the rebuttal. That does not happen; instead we get threats about sedition, death, etc.



It doesn't matter who she is. And her claims are so hyperbolic and her vitriol so venomous that they dont even deserve a rebuttal. And yes if she calls for dismemberment of India the Rule of Law will kick in and she will be charged according to the relevant sections of IPC. That process is not dependent on the identity or the idealogy of that person.



Developereo said:


> But they do not wish to be part of the state to begin with. The rights they are demanding are not their rights as Indian citizens, hence there is no 'duty' towards the Indian state. They specifically reject any connection with the Indian state.



It is not for them to decide that.

No Punjabi or Bengali or Lakhnavi or Sindhi got that priviledge in 1947. I dont see what makes the Kashmiris so special to demand that right ?

If they feel so strongly they can make their way to Pakistan just like the Punjabi muslims or Bengali muslims or Lakhnavis.. I have no objection.

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> He was a political prisoner from 1975-77 for supporting the Baloch nationalist movement against the Pakistan forces.
> 
> Najam Sethi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> He was imprisoned for a month for treason charges by the Nawaz government, but freed by the Supreme Court in about a month.


 
Where you spending the time editing Wiki ? 

I asked for a credible source.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Then I can very well say A Roy 'parrots' the claim of Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter who she is. And her claims are so hyperbolic and her vitriol so venomous that they dont even deserve a rebuttal. And yes if she calls for dismemberment of India the Rule of Law will kick in and she will be charged according to the relevant sections of IPC. That process is not dependent on the identity or the idealogy of that person.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not for them to decide that.
> 
> No Punjabi or Bengali or Lakhnavi or Sindhi got that priviledge in 1947. I dont see what makes the Kashmiris so special to demand that right ?
> 
> If they feel so strongly they can make their way to Pakistan just like the Punjabi muslims or Bengali muslims or Lakhnavis.. I have no objection.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Where you spending the time editing Wiki ?
> 
> I asked for a credible source.



Did I edit the Soas website as well? It says the same thing:

SOAS CSAS Seminar - Najam Sethi 18.02.11


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> Did I edit the Soas website as well? It says the same thing:
> 
> SOAS CSAS Seminar - Najam Sethi 18.02.11



LOL this source just copies what is in Wiki...word by word...

So even though you havent edited Wiki (granted) an unreferenced claim in Wiki is hardly the paragon of credibility 

I knew that was straight out from the forbidden place with no credible proof to back it up..


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> Then I can very well say A Roy 'parrots' the claim of Pakistanis.



Except that she quotes and repeats claims by Kashmiris. Are you acknowledging, then, that Kashmiris are Pakistanis?



KS said:


> if she calls for dismemberment of India the Rule of Law will kick in



All she is asking is for the Indian army to respect human rights and for India to stand by its claim of being a democracy. If India views them as Indian citizens, then they have the right of democracy and to decide their fate (cf. Quebec in Canada). If India doesn't accord them that right, then it admits they are not Indians under the law, and must be given freedom.



KS said:


> It is not for them to decide that.
> 
> No Punjabi or Bengali or Lakhnavi or Sindhi got that priviledge in 1947. I dont see what makes the Kashmiris so special to demand that right ?
> 
> If they feel so strongly they can make their way to Pakistan just like the Punjabi muslims or Bengali muslims or Lakhnavis.. I have no objection.



Already addressed above.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Roybot

India will allow plebiscite in Kashmir, once Pakistan allows plebiscite in Balochistan


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> The issue itself is that *Indian 'sovereignty' is illegitimate in Kashmir*.


Which law is violated by India's accession of Kashmir, that makes Indian sovereignty over Kashmir 'illegitimate'.?


----------



## LiberalAtheist

Developereo said:


> My approach would be to expose the truth about Indian occupation and brutality to the world through mass media. The whole concept of soft power is alien to the Pakistani establishment, and that has been India's greatest advantage over Pakistan.



just like what your forces are doing in Balochistan and Waziristan??? a spade is a spade.


----------



## RazPaK

roy_gourav said:


> India will allow plebiscite in Kashmir, once Pakistan allows plebiscite in Balochistan



Mr. Gourav is trolling heavy.


----------



## RazPaK

PunjabiSidhu said:


> just like what your forces are doing in Balochistan and Waziristan??? a spade is a spade.



We have Balouchis and Pashtuns that live in these areas saying otherwise, stop trying to hate.

Kaka gal sun, tu Punjabi an te Hindustan tey ghod vich baan nu tyar an. Sharam auni chaiydi tinu. India ney kinay Sikh maray te fevi tinu koi sharam ney. Lanat ah twade vargay lokhan nu.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Except that she quotes and repeats claims by Kashmiris. Are you acknowledging, then, that Kashmiris are Pakistanis?



Dont we have Balochis decrying the excesses of the FC/PA in B'stan. Maybe Najam Sethi is just reiterating their claims.




Developereo said:


> All she is asking is for the Indian army to respect human rights and for India to stand by its claim of being a democracy. If India views them as Indian citizens, then they have the right of democracy and to decide their fate (cf. Quebec in Canada). If India doesn't accord them that right, then it admits they are not Indians under the law, and must be given freedom.



Democracy doesn't give the right to secede. National integrity comes before Democracy.

Famous example - American civil war. South seceded..North defeated the secessionary forces. They did not sit tight saying its a democracy. What you say is Anarchy.





Developereo said:


> Already addressed above.



I dont see how it was addressed.


----------



## Birbal

Like Arundhati Roy, many Indians actually want justice for Kashmir. Most of the Indians here are nationalist jingoists, but they aren't really a representative sample of Indians.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> India will allow plebiscite in Kashmir, once Pakistan allows plebiscite in Balochistan



Predictable derailment attempt.



PunjabiSidhu said:


> just like what your forces are doing in Balochistan and Waziristan??? a spade is a spade.



Ditto.



toxic_pus said:


> Which law is violated by India's accession of Kashmir, that makes Indian sovereignty over Kashmir 'illegitimate'.?



The need for 700,000 troops to subjugate the locals. If that's not an 'occupying force', I don't know what is.


----------



## KS

Birbal said:


> Like Arundhati Roy, many Indians actually want justice for Kashmir. Most of the Indians here are nationalist jingoists, but they aren't really a representative sample of Indians.



The Indians over here are a better representative sample than A Roy. That is for sure.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LiberalAtheist

RazPaK said:


> *We have Balouchis and Pashtuns that live in these areas saying otherwise,* stop trying to hate.
> 
> Kaka gal sun, tu Punjabi an te Hindustan tey ghod vich baan nu tyar an. Sharam auni chaiydi tinu. India ney kinay Sikh maray te fevi tinu koi sharam ney. Lanat ah twade vargay lokhan nu.



on the payroll of security forces or gov't or maybe threatened to say the false statements? i have proof that completely contradicts the first half of your post 

what happened in the 1980s was the result of a once pure Granthi turned radical extremist trying to separate a state from the union and a corrupt autocrat along with her political party that played divisive and dirty politics since the early 90s Punjab has been peaceful and prosperous the majority of Indian Sikhs think the same look below 

Say &#39;NO&#39; to KHALISTAN. - The Voice of Indian Sikhs - YouTube

Khalistan Will Never Be Created - An Indian Sikh - YouTube

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> Democracy doesn't give the right to secede. National integrity comes before Democracy.
> 
> Famous example - American civil war. South seceded..North defeated the secessionary forces. They did not sit tight saying its a democracy. What you say is Anarchy.



Actually democracy provides precisely for such a situation. That is why I mentioned Quebec. Also look up referendums in Puerto Rico, if you are interested.

As for history, lots of things were done differently in the past. That is no excuse to deny people's rights in the 21st century.



KS said:


> I dont see how it was addressed.



OK, I expanded above.


----------



## nForce

What stakes do the Pakistanis have if Kashmir gets liberated?
Why dont they liberate their part of Kashmir first?

I guess Arundhati Roy meant that too.


----------



## Developereo

nForce said:


> What stakes do the Pakistanis have if Kashmir gets liberated?



1. It's unfinished business from 1947.
2- It is our moral duty to support them as long as they keep asking for our support by flying our flag.



nForce said:


> Why dont they liberate their part of Kashmir first?
> 
> I guess Arundhati Roy meant that too.



We don't need to keep 700,000 troops in our Kashmir to quash any independence movement.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Actually democracy provides precisely for such a situation. That is why I mentioned Quebec. Also look up referendums in Puerto Rico, if you are interested.



And that is why I mentioned US civil war in which secession was dealt with the way it should be.

You think Quebec model is good, I think US model is good.



Developereo said:


> As for history, lots of things were done differently in the past. That is no excuse to deny people's rights in the 21st century.



I guess then artificial UN stamp should not be a hinderance in Pakistan conducting a referendum in Balochistan ? Surely they are also humans.




Developereo said:


> 1. It's unfinished business from 1947.



True. They should do what the millions of UP,Bihari, Punjabi, Hyderabadi,Sindhi, Bengali Muslims did during Partition. Pack their bags and migrate to Pakistan. I absolutely have no problem with that.



Developereo said:


> 2- It is our moral duty to support them as long as they keep asking for our support by flying our flag


 
The latest Chatham house polls say less than 2% of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan. So I guess you should stop supporting them.They dont want you.


----------



## nForce

Developereo said:


> 1. It's unfinished business from 1947.
> 2- It is our moral duty to support them as long as they keep asking for our support by flying our flag.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't need to keep 700,000 troops in our Kashmir to quash any independence movement.



Yeah yeah..we know all too very well about that attitude.The Pakistani leadership has this attitude of biting more than they can chew.They are involved in military activities against Soviets(providing bases to US),they are present in Afghanistan,they are present in war against Israel,they are present in the form of Occupation force in Gulf war,they think Palestine is their problem as well,they think Kashmir to be their birth rights etc etc...Not many Pakistanis show the same zeal and enthusiasm when it comes to working for their own country.They just like to poke their nose in others' business,and try to have a stake at matters beyond their means.

We keep a lot of troops there because there has been wars for that region in the past and not to mention we had a problem with insurgency until recently.Thats a logical deduction.Now how much cautious we will be,thats upto us,not you,isnt it?


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> And that is why I mentioned US civil war in which secession was dealt with the way it should be.
> 
> You think Quebec model is good, I think US model is good.



It's not about Canadian or US model. They are both the same: Quebec in Canada and Puerto Rico in US.

It's about how modern democracies handle these situations.



KS said:


> I guess then artificial UN stamp should not be a hinderance in Pakistan conducting a referendum in Balochistan ? Surely they are also humans.



Once again, Baluchistan is not the subject of discussion. I only mentioned Quebec and PR because you guys claimed that national sovereignty trumps democracy. US and Canada showed that, for true democracies, it does not.



KS said:


> True. They should do what the millions of UP,Bihari, Punjabi, Hyderabadi,Sindhi, Bengali Muslims did during Partition. Pack their bags and migrate to Pakistan. I absolutely have no problem with that.



This is not 1947 and the situation on the ground is not the same. Therefore, that 'solution' is not relevant.

What is relevant is India's claim to be a democracy. As an area under India's control, these people are entitled to democracy and I just showed how real democracies handle these situations.



KS said:


> The latest Chatham house polls say less than 2% of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan. So I guess you should stop supporting them.They dont want you.



A British poll telling us what our own citizens want? When there is no independence movement of comparable magnitude to the one in Indian held Kashmir? Once again, we don't need an occupying force of 700,000 men to hold on to our Kashmir.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Soumitra

Lets have a deal. You take Arundhati and give us Veena Malik


----------



## Developereo

nForce said:


> We keep a lot of troops there because there has been wars for that region in the past and not to mention we had a problem with insurgency until recently.Thats a logical deduction.Now how much cautious we will be,thats upto us,not you,isnt it?



Do you honestly think the 700,000 troops are there to repel a Pakistani invasion? Do you think Pakistan will pour a million men into Kashmir and leave the rest of the country undefended?

Let's face it: the Indian army is there to subdue the ordinary population. It is there to demoralize and terrorize the population into submission. To break their spirit by a show of force.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Pakistan is ready to hold a plebiscite as soon as Indian troops leave the region. It's just you Indians that are too butt-hurt to hold a plebiscite even when Pakistan was ready to hold one in the state of Junagadh.


----------



## nForce

Developereo said:


> Do you honestly think the 700,000 troops are there to repel a Pakistani invasion? Do you think Pakistan will pour a million men into Kashmir and leave the rest of the country undefended?
> 
> Let's face it: the Indian army is there to subdue the ordinary population. It is there to demoralize and terrorize the population into submission. To break their spirit by a show of force.



conclusions can be drawn in various ways.Let us say,your version differs from what the Indian military thinks


----------



## Paan Singh

RazPaK said:


> Pakistan is ready to hold a plebiscite as soon as Indian troops leave the region. It's just you Indians that are too butt-hurt to hold a plebiscite even when Pakistan was ready to hold one in the state of Junagadh.



plebiscite can only take place if kashmir is united..wat about chinese occupied?


----------



## Nirvana

plebiscite In Kashmir is not possible unless and Until Pakistan Vacate occupied Kashmir !! It was Pakistan who Invaded and Occupied Kashmir first in 1947...

The Brutal Occupation of Pakistan in Pokashmir is Ignored by the world and People their are Oppresed of their Own Rights

Roy should also speak on That ! But what can we Expect from Geelani sympathiser


----------



## RazPaK

Prism said:


> plebiscite can only take place if kashmir is united..wat about chinese occupied?



Who lives there? Please name me the city?


----------



## Paan Singh

@pakistanis,

see this video,he clearly mentions how paksitanis attacked kashmir first and even started all war and how u ppl are brainwashed?
i have a lot like this.


----------



## Nirvana

RazPaK said:


> Pakistan is ready to hold a plebiscite as soon as Indian troops leave the region. It's just you Indians that are too butt-hurt to hold a plebiscite even when Pakistan was ready to hold one in the state of Junagadh.



What about Pakistan Occupied Kashmir , That aint Occupied ? 

Troops from both nation should be withdrawn to hold a Plebliscite


----------



## Vinod2070

Developereo said:


> Do you honestly think the 700,000 troops are there to repel a Pakistani invasion? Do you think Pakistan will pour a million men into Kashmir and leave the rest of the country undefended?
> 
> Let's face it: the Indian army is there to subdue the ordinary population. It is there to demoralize and terrorize the population into submission. To break their spirit by a show of force.


 
The reason for the number of forces is this.

Some genius in Pakistan (Zia) calculated that if India is forced to increase the number of troops in Kashmir beyond 500,000, it will sink due to the burden.

So Pakistan calibrated the terror tap accordingly.

needless to say, there was a wee bit error in his calculation. The number of troops that Pakistan claims is 700,000.

And India has progressed like never before despite all that terror from Pakistan.


----------



## Paan Singh

RazPaK said:


> Who lives there? Please name me the city?



i meant to say,china will have to vacate that part..


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> The reason for the number of forces is this.
> 
> Some genius in Pakistan (Zia) calculated that if India is forced to increase the number of troops in Kashmir beyond 500,000, it will sink due to the burden.
> 
> So Pakistan calibrated the terror tap accordingly.
> 
> needless to say, there was a wee bit error in his calculation. *The number of troops that Pakistan claims is 700,000*.
> 
> And India has progressed like never before despite all that terror from Pakistan.



I didn't know that the Time magazine was run by Pakistan. Hmmm...

Kashmir's New Warriors -- Printout -- TIME



> In 1989, Kashmiri rebels, fighting either for independence or union with Pakistan, rose up against New Delhi; Islamabad supported some of them, as well as bands of cross-border militants. India sent in some 700,000 troops and paramilitaries, who are still there.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Nirvana said:


> What about Pakistan Occupied Kashmir , That aint Occupied ?
> 
> Troops from both nation should be withdrawn to hold a Plebliscite



I agree. That's what I've been saying from the start, but India needs to take the initiative since they have 700,000 troops there in the first place.


----------



## Developereo

Prism said:


> plebiscite can only take place if kashmir is united..wat about chinese occupied?





Nirvana said:


> plebiscite In Kashmir is not possible unless and Until Pakistan Vacate occupied Kashmir



What kind of screwed up logic is that? It's like saying you will not stop beating your wife until the other guy allegedly doing the same stops first.

India is responsible for the welfare of people under *its* occupation. Can it not do the right thing by them -- the democratic thing -- without looking for excuses all over the place?

*Does India hold its democracy ransom to how Pakistan handles its affairs?*



Prism said:


> @pakistanis,
> 
> see this video,he clearly mentions how paksitanis attacked kashmir first and even started all war and how u ppl are brainwashed?
> i have a lot like this.



None of it changes the fact that ordinary Kashmiri civilians are flying the Pakistani flag and asking for our help.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Prism said:


> i meant to say,china will have to vacate that part..



China will vacate as soon as we agree to a plebiscite. China has already issued indpenedent visas to Kasmiris on both sides of the border.


----------



## Paan Singh

Developereo said:


> What kind of screwed up logic is that? It's like saying you will not stop beating your wife until the other guy allegedly doing the same stops first.
> 
> India is responsible for the welfare of people under *its* occupation. Can it not do the right thing by them -- the democratic thing -- without looking for excuses all over the place?
> 
> *Does India hold its democracy ransom to how Pakistan handles its affairs?*
> 
> 
> 
> None of it changes the fact that ordinary Kashmiri civilians are flying the Pakistani flag and asking for our help.





> What kind of screwed up logic is that?



read UN resolution then..its the pre condition..



> None of it changes the fact that ordinary Kashmiri civilians are flying the Pakistani flag and asking for our help.



no..you sent tribals on the bases of the muslim majority..i never heard this b4 that they needed you..there was no terror inside kashmir b4 1989...even king was forced to join india when u ppl attacked..you did mistake at first step..my be you could get it without attacking it first..

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------




RazPaK said:


> China will vacate as soon as we agree to a plebiscite. China has already issued indpenedent visas to Kasmiris on both sides of the border.



talk with me when they will do so..
and even paksitan is not ready to vacate its part in actual sense.


----------



## Nirvana

> What kind of screwed up logic is that? *It's like saying you will not stop beating your wife until the other guy allegedly doing the same stops first.*
> 
> India is responsible for the welfare of people under its occupation. Can it not do the right thing by them -- the democratic thing -- without looking for excuses all over the place?
> 
> Does India hold its democracy ransom to how Pakistan handles its affairs?



Kashmir [PoKashmir and J&k] are one Part that is Divided or Occupied by 2 nations , so the thing you are saying is Inappropriate

My Point is That People from Pakistan bark a lot about Kashmir and Indian brutal Occupation but they forget how they themselves are Handling Pokashmir 

why dont Pakistan first take the Initiative to Leave its part of Kashmir then talk about India doing same 

You people care about Kashmiris , I dont think so


----------



## toxic_pus

bilalhaider said:


> I didn't know that the Time magazine was run by Pakistan. Hmmm...
> 
> Kashmir's New Warriors -- Printout -- TIME


Where does it say that India _currently_ deploys 700,000 troops in Kashmir?

Anyway, I am still waiting to learn how Kashmir's accession to India was in violation of law, and therefore sovereignty of India over Kashmir is 'illegitimate'.


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> I didn't know that the Time magazine was run by Pakistan. Hmmm...
> 
> Kashmir's New Warriors -- Printout -- TIME


 
It doesn't change the facts.

And the fact is that Pakistani terror is responsible for the troop numbers.

Pakistan was successful in tying up Indian troops in Kashmir. It was a deliberate strategy.

You are responsible for it and now are faking to shed crocodile tears!


----------



## Developereo

Vinod2070 said:


> The reason for the number of forces is this.
> 
> Some genius in Pakistan (Zia) calculated that if India is forced to increase the number of troops in Kashmir beyond 500,000, it will sink due to the burden.
> 
> So Pakistan calibrated the terror tap accordingly.
> 
> needless to say, there was a wee bit error in his calculation. The number of troops that Pakistan claims is 700,000.
> 
> And India has progressed like never before despite all that terror from Pakistan.



So NATO, with all its vast resources, only committed 150K troops against an entrenched adversary in an active war zone, and you are telling me India placed 700K troops to intercept the occasional interloper across the border?

Like I said, the troops are there to terrorize the native Kashmiris and to break their spirit.


----------



## RazPaK

Indians moved troops into Junagadh when clearly the state was trying to seceede to Pakistan. Indians take pride in being dishonest and cheaters. Kashmir will be azad, because they don't want anything to do with you. I don't care if it's 200 years from now. They may align themselves with India to improve their infrastructure and global awareness, but they will separate from you Imperialists as soon as they get the chance, because you do not respect their wishes.

Looks likes Indians are stuck in stockholm syndrome and now emulating their British masters by oppressing people. What a sad day.


----------



## Nirvana

> The Indian forces landed in Kashmir on the morning of 27 October 1947; and Pakistani governments and Pakistani backed parties are encouraged and helped to observe that day as a Black Day. I have no problem with that. However, this fact should be understood that if there was no tribal attack on 22 October 1947, there would not have been any need to seek help from India, and the Indian troops would not have landed on 27 October. In other words, 27 October is a by product of the events that started on 22 October; and without this unprovoked aggression, aim of which was to capture the Kashmiri Capital, we could have been an independent State.





> Some people in order to justify the &#8216;Tribal Invasion&#8217; claim that the tribesmen came there to help Muslims who were being butchered by Hindus and Sikhs in Jammu. This story is totally wrong; and is advanced only to provide a cover to the atrocities of these savage tribesmen. Communal riots started in Jammu in third week of August 1947 when non Muslims uprooted from Pakistani Punjab poured in to Jammu from Sialkot and Gujrat areas. Horror stories and condition of these &#8216;migrants&#8217; provided fuel required to start riots and non Muslims from outside the State also took part in these riots in which Muslims were the main target.
> 
> 
> 
> If aim of this tribal attack was to help Muslims who were killed in riots then they should have proceeded towards Jammu where Muslims were in minority. They could have entered the State territory from Sialkot which is only about 28 miles from Jammu or from Gujrat. Furthermore, why did they wait till 22 October (two months) before they launched this tribal attack, Muslims of Jammu needed urgent help in August 1947, but Pakistani government and these Tribesmen did not make any move, they did not even issues a statement against these riots.
> 
> The reason for this is that until mid October 1947, Pakistani authorities were under this impression that the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir will accede with Pakistan; and by helping Muslims of Jammu (when they were under attack) or by speaking in their support the Government of Pakistan did not want to annoy the Maharaja and risk losing Jammu and Kashmir. However, when Pakistani government realised that the Maharaja did not want to join Pakistan and wanted to remain independent; and he even refused to allow Mohammed Ali Jinnah to visit Srinagar for a holiday, they decided to teach him a lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani government was really annoyed and felt humiliated and let down. They decided to punish the Maharaja and take over Kashmir by force. In complete violation of the Standstill Agreement they stopped all the essential supplies including food and oil entering the State; and despite repeated requests from the Maharaja government, Pakistan did not allow resumption of supplies of essential goods to Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> To make matters worse for the Maharaja, Pakistan government encouraged a rebellion in Poonch where Muslims were very resentful. Muslim soldiers who took part in the Second World War had returned to their homes and were more conscious of their rights and use of gun. Furthermore Pakistan accused the Maharajah government for attacking Pakistani territory; and demanded that either the Maharaja or his Prime Minister should immediately visit Karachi (Pakistan) to resolve these issues.
> 
> 
> 
> The Maharaja denied these charges, and said how his small army (8000, in total and scattered in various parts of the State) could attack Pakistan; and for what purpose he would do that. Both governments exchanged telegrams to resolve these issues between second week of October and 19th October 1947; and the Maharaja suggested to set up a Joint Commission to investigate these matters. Pakistani government showed no interest in any kind of investigation or any Commission; and while these communications were going on, Pakistan assembled tribesmen from North West Frontier in name of Jihad and attacked the Valley of Kashmir which had overwhelming Muslim majority, and where there were no riots and Muslims were not under attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the aim was not to help surrounded Muslims of Jammu, but to punish the Maharaja by capturing his capital &#8211; Srinagar. As noted earlier if the aim was to help Muslims of Jammu then the tribesmen should have been directed to Jammu Province via Sialkot and Gujrat; and that attack should have taken place in August 1947, and not on 22 October.
> 
> 
> 
> In this brutal attack non Muslims were the main target &#8211; their men were systematically killed, their women were raped and kidnapped and taken back to North West Frontier. Their houses were burnt; however, the tribesmen showed great equality when it came to looting- they looted everyone; even those items which were stored in a Masjid (Mosque) by Muslims and non Muslims hoping that Muslim tribesmen will not loot their belongings from a place of worship, were also looted. Any Muslim who tried to protect non Muslims and criticised these tribesmen were also killed on spot. It is believed that more than 30 thousands people lost their lives in this brutal attack.
> 
> 
> 
> To us 22 October is rightly called a Black Day, but to rub salt in our wounds, and to hide their crimes, imperialists of Pakistan and their foot soldiers camouflaged their crimes in name of religion and fabricated false stories to justify their atrocities and naked aggression. Sad thing is that these people have not learnt anything, and they still continue to promote those policies which divide people in name of religion; and time has come that we people of Jammu and Kashmir stand up and be counted.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/137002-tribal-invasion-pakistan-s-first-proxy-war.html

Truth About Kashmir that you people Ignore

---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------




> The Indian forces landed in Kashmir on the morning of 27 October 1947; and Pakistani governments and Pakistani backed parties are encouraged and helped to observe that day as a Black Day. I have no problem with that. However, this fact should be understood that if there was no tribal attack on 22 October 1947, there would not have been any need to seek help from India, and the Indian troops would not have landed on 27 October. In other words, 27 October is a by product of the events that started on 22 October; and without this unprovoked aggression, aim of which was to capture the Kashmiri Capital, we could have been an independent State.





> Some people in order to justify the Tribal Invasion claim that the tribesmen came there to help Muslims who were being butchered by Hindus and Sikhs in Jammu. This story is totally wrong; and is advanced only to provide a cover to the atrocities of these savage tribesmen. Communal riots started in Jammu in third week of August 1947 when non Muslims uprooted from Pakistani Punjab poured in to Jammu from Sialkot and Gujrat areas. Horror stories and condition of these migrants provided fuel required to start riots and non Muslims from outside the State also took part in these riots in which Muslims were the main target.
> 
> 
> 
> If aim of this tribal attack was to help Muslims who were killed in riots then they should have proceeded towards Jammu where Muslims were in minority. They could have entered the State territory from Sialkot which is only about 28 miles from Jammu or from Gujrat. Furthermore, why did they wait till 22 October (two months) before they launched this tribal attack, Muslims of Jammu needed urgent help in August 1947, but Pakistani government and these Tribesmen did not make any move, they did not even issues a statement against these riots.
> 
> The reason for this is that until mid October 1947, Pakistani authorities were under this impression that the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir will accede with Pakistan; and by helping Muslims of Jammu (when they were under attack) or by speaking in their support the Government of Pakistan did not want to annoy the Maharaja and risk losing Jammu and Kashmir. However, when Pakistani government realised that the Maharaja did not want to join Pakistan and wanted to remain independent; and he even refused to allow Mohammed Ali Jinnah to visit Srinagar for a holiday, they decided to teach him a lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani government was really annoyed and felt humiliated and let down. They decided to punish the Maharaja and take over Kashmir by force. In complete violation of the Standstill Agreement they stopped all the essential supplies including food and oil entering the State; and despite repeated requests from the Maharaja government, Pakistan did not allow resumption of supplies of essential goods to Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> To make matters worse for the Maharaja, Pakistan government encouraged a rebellion in Poonch where Muslims were very resentful. Muslim soldiers who took part in the Second World War had returned to their homes and were more conscious of their rights and use of gun. Furthermore Pakistan accused the Maharajah government for attacking Pakistani territory; and demanded that either the Maharaja or his Prime Minister should immediately visit Karachi (Pakistan) to resolve these issues.
> 
> 
> 
> The Maharaja denied these charges, and said how his small army (8000, in total and scattered in various parts of the State) could attack Pakistan; and for what purpose he would do that. Both governments exchanged telegrams to resolve these issues between second week of October and 19th October 1947; and the Maharaja suggested to set up a Joint Commission to investigate these matters. Pakistani government showed no interest in any kind of investigation or any Commission; and while these communications were going on, Pakistan assembled tribesmen from North West Frontier in name of Jihad and attacked the Valley of Kashmir which had overwhelming Muslim majority, and where there were no riots and Muslims were not under attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the aim was not to help surrounded Muslims of Jammu, but to punish the Maharaja by capturing his capital  Srinagar. As noted earlier if the aim was to help Muslims of Jammu then the tribesmen should have been directed to Jammu Province via Sialkot and Gujrat; and that attack should have taken place in August 1947, and not on 22 October.
> 
> 
> 
> In this brutal attack non Muslims were the main target  their men were systematically killed, their women were raped and kidnapped and taken back to North West Frontier. Their houses were burnt; however, the tribesmen showed great equality when it came to looting- they looted everyone; even those items which were stored in a Masjid (Mosque) by Muslims and non Muslims hoping that Muslim tribesmen will not loot their belongings from a place of worship, were also looted. Any Muslim who tried to protect non Muslims and criticised these tribesmen were also killed on spot. It is believed that more than 30 thousands people lost their lives in this brutal attack.
> 
> 
> 
> To us 22 October is rightly called a Black Day, but to rub salt in our wounds, and to hide their crimes, imperialists of Pakistan and their foot soldiers camouflaged their crimes in name of religion and fabricated false stories to justify their atrocities and naked aggression. Sad thing is that these people have not learnt anything, and they still continue to promote those policies which divide people in name of religion; and time has come that we people of Jammu and Kashmir stand up and be counted.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/137002-tribal-invasion-pakistan-s-first-proxy-war.html

Truth About Kashmir that you people Ignore

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

toxic_pus said:


> Where does it say that India _currently_ deploys 700,000 troops in Kashmir?



well this figure is used by pakistanis..they increase zeros or multiply it by 2or 3..
few paksitanis says in gujrat riots 10000 muslims killed ,few says 30000 killed..

upto maximum,2-3 lakh soldiers are there including police or paramilitary force but they say 700000..3 times


----------



## 53fd

toxic_pus said:


> Where does it say that India _currently_ deploys 700,000 troops in Kashmir?
> 
> Anyway, I am still waiting to learn how Kashmir's accession to India was in violation of law, and therefore sovereignty of India over Kashmir is 'illegitimate'.



My English must be lacking I guess:



> India sent in some 700,000 troops and paramilitaries, *who are still there*.



But I agree with you that this article was from last year. So they took out most of at least 500,000 of their personnel from there.


----------



## SpArK

A.Roy should move to pk... She doesn't even get good crowd in literary meets.

Speaking against the system is the funky new trend for limelight.


----------



## Paan Singh

RazPaK said:


> Indians moved troops into Junagadh when clearly the state was trying to seceede to Pakistan. Indians take pride in being dishonest and cheaters. Kashmir will be azad, because they don't want anything to do with you. I don't care if it's 200 years from now. They may align themselves with India to improve their infrastructure and global awareness, but they will separate from you Imperialists as soon as they get the chance, because you do not respect their wishes.
> 
> Looks likes Indians are stuck in stockholm syndrome and now emulating their British masters by oppressing people. What a sad day.



let me give you simple answer by not twisting any thing.

1)kashmir is source of water for us.
2)if kashmir is gone then many other states of india will start to ask freedom..which means destablization of whole india.
3)and we will kill every body who is against our intergrity.
4)simple option for pakistan is to accept the status quo,you cant do anything other than this.
5)you will lit up kashmir..we will do retaliate in baluchistan too.
6)and from now,there ill be no body to support you on platform coz west is with us and very hard against you.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

Prism said:


> 5)you will lit up kashmir..we will do retaliate in baluchistan too.



So you will kill each other with terrorism, and let China surge ahead?

That does sound like Indian thinking.


----------



## toxic_pus

bilalhaider said:


> My English must be lacking I guess:


'_700,000_' were sent when insurgency broke out and the '_troops and paramilitaries_' are still there. DUH!


----------



## RazPaK

Prism said:


> let me give you simple answer by not twisting any thing.
> 
> 1)kashmir is source of water for us.
> 2)if kashmir is gone then many other states of india will start to ask freedom..which means destablization of whole india.
> 3)and we will kill every body who is against our intergrity.
> 4)simple option for pakistan is to accept the status quo,you cant do anything other than this.
> 5)you will lit up kashmir..we will do retaliate in baluchistan too.
> 6)and from now,there ill be no body to support you on platform coz west is with us and very hard against you.



And the Indians show their asal roop when given cold hard facts. Sigh.


----------



## 53fd

SpArK said:


> A.Roy should move to pk... She doesn't even get good crowd in literary meets.
> 
> Speaking against the system is the funky new trend for limelight.



Her viewpoint is understood by the majority of Indians living in India who have been neglected their basic facilities of life by the government.

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------




toxic_pus said:


> '_700,000_' were sent when insurgency broke out and the '_troops and paramilitaries_' are still there. DUH!



The English says the 700,000 troops went there, & are still there today.


----------



## StandForInsaf

Prism said:


> let me give you simple answer by not twisting any thing.
> 
> 1)kashmir is source of water for us.
> 2)if kashmir is gone then many other states of india will start to ask freedom..which means destablization of whole india.
> 3)and we will kill every body who is against our intergrity.
> 4)simple option for pakistan is to accept the status quo,you cant do anything other than this.
> 5)you will lit up kashmir..we will do retaliate in baluchistan too.
> 6)and from now,there ill be no body to support you on platform coz west is with us and very hard against you.


----------



## Nelson

RazPaK said:


> I agree. That's what I've been saying from the start, but India needs to take the initiative since they have 700,000 troops there in the first place.


According to UN resolution, Pakistan should withdraw from Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Once you do that then India may think about plebiscite at its own time.


----------



## Paan Singh

RazPaK said:


> And the Indians show their asal roop when given cold hard facts. Sigh.



these are hard facts..apply it on your self..are u willing to give up B..no..why??it will create problem in other states too.
for further clue,read how usa was formed??they were all against each other but now standing united


----------



## jayron

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So you will kill each other with terrorism, and let China surge ahead?
> 
> That does sound like Indian thinking.



You are almost right except that you forgot to mention the chinese arming Pakistan so that both the countries fight each other and the Chinese can surge ahead.


----------



## SpArK

bilalhaider said:


> Her viewpoint is understood by the majority of Indians living in India who have been neglected their basic facilities of life by the government.
> 
> .




WHAT???????????????????????????

Come on ..cant laugh on jokes this lame.


----------



## toxic_pus

bilalhaider said:


> The English says the 700,000 troops went there, & are still there today.


Does it now?

EDIT: Anybody care to explain how Kashmir's accession to India was in violation of law.


----------



## harshad

it would be fun if all the countries in the world listen to one general individual and decides its policies 
it was pakistan who attacked kashmir in the first place,we are ready for plebicite but you should read the condition for that which pakistan will not do


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

jayron said:


> You are almost right except that you forgot to mention the chinese arming Pakistan so that both the countries fight each other and the Chinese can surge ahead.



LOL don't be biased, the country you are living in (USA) contributes by FAR the largest amount of money to the Pakistani Army every year.

And they justify it like this:

US envoy to Pak justified funds as &#8216;defence&#8217; against &#8216;threat from India&#8217; - Indian Express

Though no one really believed that those F-16's were for fighting terrorists anyway.


----------



## 53fd

SpArK said:


> WHAT???????????????????????????
> 
> Come on ..cant laugh on jokes this lame.



I'm glad you find it funny that you find 'the people she stands up for' effectively control 1/3rd of India (at the expense of the Indian government).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

bilalhaider said:


> I'm glad you find it funny that you find 'the people she stands up for' effectively control 1/3rd of India (at the expense of the Indian government).


She stands up for herself, and herself only. Occasionally she talks sense. But mostly it's 'me, myself and I'. Essentially, she is a casuist.


----------



## Aryavart

She is getting paid from ISI, ******* lady


----------



## SpArK

bilalhaider said:


> I'm glad you find it funny that you find 'the people she stands up for' effectively control 1/3rd of India (at the expense of the Indian government).



As always your post didnt make any sense. Jump from Roy to poor people to voice and blah blah...

I met Roy in a literary meet not so long ago and yes she is from my state and I also know what "state of mind " she is in, more than a "keyboard hate monger" sitting comfortably miles away "defending" his nation online without know a thing and debates on basis on whats been spoon-feed on hate articles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## harshad

bilalhaider said:


> I'm glad you find it funny that you find 'the people she stands up for' effectively control 1/3rd of India (at the expense of the Indian government).



the people she stand for dont want to destroy india,they are just fed up of the govt. policies which dont help them economically so if you think the naxals support giving up of kashmir you are mistaken


----------



## Developereo

Prism said:


> read UN resolution then..its the pre condition..



I thought Indian position was that the UN resolution is no longer relevant?

In any case, what I am saying has nothing to do with the UN resolution. It is simple 'The Right Thing To Do' for a democracy. Canada and the US showed how real democracies handle such a situation.

It doesn't matter what Pakistan does or doesn't do. This is a test of *Indian* democracy.



Prism said:


> no..you sent tribals on the bases of the muslim majority..i never heard this b4 that they needed you..there was no terror inside kashmir b4 1989...even king was forced to join india when u ppl attacked..you did mistake at first step..my be you could get it without attacking it first..



It's not a question of what happened 60 years ago, but what is happening on the ground right now. They are flying the Pakistani flag -- not necessarily because they want to join with Pakistan, but simply to ask for our support against Indian occupation.



Nirvana said:


> Kashmir [PoKashmir and J&k] are one Part that is Divided or Occupied by 2 nations , so the thing you are saying is Inappropriate
> 
> My Point is That People from Pakistan bark a lot about Kashmir and Indian brutal Occupation but they forget how they themselves are Handling Pokashmir
> 
> why dont Pakistan first take the Initiative to Leave its part of Kashmir then talk about India doing same
> 
> You people care about Kashmiris , I dont think so



Addressed just above.

This is not about Pakistan; it's purely about Indian democracy in a land under its occupation.



Prism said:


> well this figure is used by pakistanis..they increase zeros or multiply it by 2or 3..
> few paksitanis says in gujrat riots 10000 muslims killed ,few says 30000 killed..
> 
> upto maximum,2-3 lakh soldiers are there including police or paramilitary force but they say 700000..3 times



India Withdraws Troops From Kashmir, Spurring Hopes - Global - The Atlantic Wire

_This week, India announced it had pulled 30,000 troops from Kashmir, the largest draw-down since 1999. It is a small step, given that up to 500,000 Indian troops remain in the region _

The actual figure is obviously confidential. 500K, 700K; it's all in the same league.


----------



## 53fd

SpArK said:


> As always your post didnt make any sense.



It make sense for the Indian people the Indian government is fighting, not you.


----------



## RazPaK

No Indian could answer/respond to what I've provided, because they are liars. True story.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

SpArK said:


> As always your post didnt make any sense. Jump from Roy to poor people to voice and blah blah...
> 
> I met Roy in a literary meet not so long ago and yes she is from my state and I also know what "state of mind " she is in, more than a "keyboard hate monger" sitting comfortably miles away "defending" his nation online without know a thing and debates on basis on whats been spoon-feed on hate articles.



Why are you talking about me on a thread that has got nothing to do with me? Reverting to your old habits it seems, eh?


----------



## Vinod2070

Developereo said:


> So NATO, with all its vast resources, only committed 150K troops against an entrenched adversary in an active war zone, and you are telling me India placed 700K troops to intercept the occasional interloper across the border?
> 
> Like I said, the troops are there to terrorize the native Kashmiris and to break their spirit.



It should be surprising that you don't see the obvious.

But for obvious reasons, it is not really surprising.

NATO is in a state of war. They don't mind using heavy weapons of war, fighter planes, artillery against their adversaries. They try to minimize the collateral damage but only so much.

We have two models. One the Pakistan model used in Balochistan and tribal areas like Bajour.

This model is, use heavy weapons of war. Don't bother about the collateral civilian deaths. Create hundreds of thousands of IDPs.

This does minimize the army casualties though.

This is the easier and cheaper method but is not so friendly to the civilians. They bear the brunt.

The other method is Indian one. No heavy weapons. No aircraft and artillery in civilian areas. try and protect the dispersed civilians from the cowardly terrorists using small weapons and minimize the collateral damage.

Very difficult. Needs more manpower. Much more expensive. But comparatively much more civilian friendly.

We made our choice.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Developereo

Prism said:


> Anybody care to explain how Kashmir's accession to India was in violation of law.



India's occupation of Kashmir valley is illegal.

*Two thirds in Kashmir want independence*

_About two thirds of residents in India-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in 10 seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey shows.
[...]
The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 per cent and 70 per cent wanted a "complete merger" of the state into India.
_

Forget the history, look at it this way: if tomorrow, 66% of Tamils wanted to secede from India and India sent in 500K troops to subdue them, it would be an occupation force.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

jayron said:


> You are almost right except that you forgot to mention the chinese arming Pakistan so that both the countries fight each other and the Chinese can surge ahead.



Except that facts say that it has barely made a dent in India's progress.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> India's occupation of Kashmir valley is illegal.


How? Care to explain?


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

SpArK said:


> I met Roy in a literary meet not so long ago and yes she is from my state and I also know what "state of mind " she is in, more than a "keyboard hate monger" sitting comfortably miles away "defending" his nation online without know a thing and debates on basis on whats been spoon-feed on hate articles.



I read she was born in Meghalaya, is that where you are from Benny?


----------



## Vinod2070

Pakistani export of terror to Kashmir was illegal. The wars of 1965 and 1999 were also illegal!

After trying everything, terror, wars et al for 5 decades, Pakistan can't say, give us Kashmir as you are a democracy.

Doesn't work that way.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jayron

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL don't be biased, the country you are living in (USA) contributes by FAR the largest amount of money to the Pakistani Army every year.
> 
> And they justify it like this:
> 
> US envoy to Pak justified funds as &#8216;defence&#8217; against &#8216;threat from India&#8217; - Indian Express
> 
> Though no one really believed that those F-16's were for fighting terrorists anyway.



umm.. I don't see an American amusing at Indians and Pakistanis fighting each other.


----------



## SpArK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I read she was born in Meghalaya, is that where you are from Benny?



Nope. I am from Kerala. She too is from there atleast partially and spend her childhood and school here in a place called kottayam.

Have u read her booker award winning novel yet or are u in supporting role here as always?


----------



## harshad

RazPaK said:


> Indians moved troops into Junagadh when clearly the state was trying to seceede to Pakistan. Indians take pride in being dishonest and cheaters. Kashmir will be azad, because they don't want anything to do with you. I don't care if it's 200 years from now. They may align themselves with India to improve their infrastructure and global awareness, but they will separate from you Imperialists as soon as they get the chance, because you do not respect their wishes.
> 
> Looks likes Indians are stuck in stockholm syndrome and now emulating their British masters by oppressing people. What a sad day.



kashmir was azad,it was pakistan who invaded it and the king asked india to help in countering pakistan so we did it after he aceeded to india
so dont know why pakistan hype azad kashmir so much,even pakistan itself gives lower freedom to media than indian side of kashmir so we know how much freedom azad kashmir has
and no kashmiri ever wanted to join pakistan or india even now they dont want to join either


----------



## nForce

bilalhaider said:


> I'm glad you find it funny that you find 'the people she stands up for' effectively control 1/3rd of India (at the expense of the Indian government).



I think you are way too far to understand realities.When the news finally reaches you it is either massively cooked up or highly distorted.Maoist activity has been noticed in various parts of India,as much as 1/3 rd part of the territory.That does not mean they control that territory


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

SpArK said:


> Have u read her booker award winning novel yet or are u in supporting role here as always?



Why would I read that Indian book? 

I've seen some interviews of her on the internet though, the Western media loves to have her as a guest for some reason.


----------



## RazPaK

harshad said:


> kashmir was azad,it was pakistan who invaded it and the king asked india to help in countering pakistan so we did it after he aceeded to india
> so dont know why pakistan hype azad kashmir so much,even pakistan itself gives lower freedom to media than indian side of kashmir so we know how much freedom azad kashmir has
> and no kashmiri ever wanted to join pakistan or india even now they dont want to join either






Is this a joke?
*You have not adressed any of the points I've made.
*Pakistan has one the world's most liberal media institutions. 


Facepalmz


----------



## SpArK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Why would I read that Indian book?
> 
> I've seen some interviews of her on the internet though, the Western media loves to have her as a guest for some reason.



The reason is that book. Read it.


----------



## RazPaK

I'm going to bed.  Looks like there are only Indian novices out tonight.


----------



## Vinod2070

Pakistan tried to get Jungarh and Hyderbad as they were ruled by Muslim rulers (probablt invaders) despite 90% Hindu population. Despite seceding on the basis of Islam and promptly indulging in ethnic cleansing of Hindu Sikhs.

It also tried to get Kashmir because it had Muslim majority. Even though it has barely 2-3% of Indian Muslims.

It failed in all three.

Learn to deal with it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## harshad

RazPaK said:


> Is this a joke?
> *You have not adressed any of the points I've made.
> *Pakistan has one the world's most liberal media institutions.
> 
> 
> Facepalmz



no not joking,you can see that if you have an open mind and are not dependent on propaganda
what points have you made i dont care to see all your previous posts,show me where you posted it
liberal institutions is different from media freedom


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> It's not about Canadian or US model. They are both the same: Quebec in Canada and Puerto Rico in US.
> 
> It's about how modern democracies handle these situations.



I specifically told you the American civil war to show there is also another way to handle these situations. And I think the Kashmir is more analogous to this as armed insurgency was not a part of Puerto Rico issue but it was a part of the American civil war.




Developereo said:


> Once again, Baluchistan is not the subject of discussion. I only mentioned Quebec and PR because you guys claimed that national sovereignty trumps democracy. US and Canada showed that, for true democracies, it does not.



Ok lets make it then as it is very much relevant to this discussion. And I mentioned the American civil war to show that Sovereignity and territorial integrity trumps democracy. BTW since democracy is the will of the majority, the majority in India says No to a referendum..So there goes our democracy discussion.




Developereo said:


> This is not 1947 and the situation on the ground is not the same. Therefore, that 'solution' is not relevant.



How it is any different. Care to elaborate ? I think it is still the same. The inability of a section of Muslims to live with Hindus.



Developereo said:


> What is relevant is India's claim to be a democracy. As an area under India's control, these people are entitled to democracy and I just showed how real democracies handle these situations.



True that. They are entitled to democracy *under Indian Constitution* and they also exercised it recently with a huge 88% turnout in local polls.




Developereo said:


> A British poll telling us what our own citizens want? When there is no independence movement of comparable magnitude to the one in Indian held Kashmir?



British poll or Martian poll. The respondents were still Kashmiris.



Developereo said:


> Once again, we don't need an occupying force of 700,000 men to hold on to our Kashmir.



The official estimate is 3.5 Lakh troops and moreover the Army is present only in the border. There is no visible presence in civilian areas.

BTW noticed that "our Kashmir" and laughed at it. Come take it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Double post


----------



## 53fd

I must say that the "God of small things" was a very good read. It vividly described all the facets of the general culture in Kottayam, & the ills of the society & culture there.


----------



## rockstarIN

RazPaK said:


> Is this a joke?
> *You have not adressed any of the points I've made.
> **Pakistan has one the world's most liberal media institutions. *
> 
> 
> Facepalmz



A graveyard of journalists too..by terrorists as well as by state.


----------



## Developereo

Vinod2070 said:


> The other method is Indian one. No heavy weapons. No aircraft and artillery in civilian areas. try and protect the dispersed civilians from the cowardly terrorists using small weapons and minimize the collateral damage.



I know some of you are incapable of discussing a topic without bringing in Baluchistan and God knows what else but, to return to the topic, the civilians need protection *from* the Indian army.

*Call for fresh probe into alleged mass rapes in Kashmir*

_Kashmir&#8217;s State Human Rights Commission (SHRC) has recommended that the government set up a special team to reinvestigate the alleged mass gang rape of at least 31 women by Indian army personnel in 1991._

*Kashmir's Mass Graves Come To Light - By Basharat Peer | Foreign Policy*

_Two decades of insurgency and counterinsurgency have resulted in the creation of a state of affairs that provides incentives to troops and policemen to show "kills." Counterinsurgency officers receive fast-track promotions, as well as monetary and other rewards, for showing results. 
[...]
This August, the SHRC finally submitted its report on the unmarked graves, which marked the first acknowledgement from any Indian official body of the presence of mass graves and murdered civilians being buried after being *falsely described by Indian troops and police as foreign terrorists.*
[...]
India continues to garrison *half a million soldiers in Kashmir*, nearly three times the number of U.S. troops in Iraq at the peak of the occupation. And India's half-century-old Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which was extended to Kashmir in 1990, gives troops the legal authority to shoot any person they suspect of being a threat and *guarantees them immunity from prosecution*. To bring a soldier before a civilian court requires the permission of India's Home Affairs Ministry; there are more than 400 cases still waiting for permission to prosecute troops known to have killed Kashmiri noncombatant civilians. _

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> None of it changes the fact that ordinary Kashmiri civilians are flying the Pakistani flag and asking for our help.



You are welcome to help. It will help us sort out the issue once and for all.


----------



## Aryavart

Teri Pein di Arundhati...for those who is saying abt IOK..my simple answer is 

*Jiski Laathi uski Bhains...*

Kashmir chaiye toh do-do hath kar lo...jiske andar dum hoga kashmir wo le jaega...till then shut ur mouth..keep sending ur bhagora's(jihadi)


----------



## RazPaK

Indians=cry babies=cheaters

Shoveling **** at Pakistan, while India has been known for doing worse. Roy is from the better part of your society.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

SpArK said:


> The reason is that book. Read it.



I might try to buy an ebook copy, I don't think it would look nice sitting on my shelf in paperback.

But first, why exactly do you want me to read it?

When I see her being invited to Western talk shows, it is usually to talk about the Maoists.


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> BTW noticed that "our Kashmir" and laughed at it. Come take it.



Funny. Isn't it.

Kashmir has never been "their" and they are so enamored by it.

Bangladesh (East Pakistan) was actually theirs, is much bigger and had a larger population that West Pakistan.

Never even a talk of reuniting with them for some reason.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

RazPaK said:


> No Indian could answer/respond to what I've provided, because they are liars. True story.




are you telling about your grand parents???? what do you provide. ok then tell me
1. Who attacked Maha Raja when the decision is pending. 
2. Who supplying militants to Kashmir valley 
3. Who started war.
4. If you really want peace in Kashmir valley Why did you fought 4 wars instead peace talk.
5. Who started Brain washing Kashmir people
6. Is Pak govn gave freedom in P.O.K 


we can't argue with brain washed people so no body didn't answered you. May be they found waste of time in it.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Forget the history, look at it this way: if tomorrow, 66% of Tamils wanted to secede from India and India sent in 500K troops to subdue them, it would be an occupation force.


 
Not happening. A thing with more probability is Punjab seceding from Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------




toxic_pus said:


> How? Care to explain?


 
I like your persistence. But you will not get your answer..coz there aint one.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Developereo said:


> I know some of you are incapable of discussing a topic without bringing in Baluchistan and God knows what else but, to return to the topic, the civilians need protection *from* the Indian army.
> 
> *Call for fresh probe into alleged mass rapes in Kashmir*
> 
> _Kashmirs State Human Rights Commission (SHRC) has recommended that the government set up a special team to reinvestigate the alleged mass gang rape of at least 31 women by Indian army personnel in 1991._
> 
> *Kashmir's Mass Graves Come To Light - By Basharat Peer | Foreign Policy*
> 
> _Two decades of insurgency and counterinsurgency have resulted in the creation of a state of affairs that provides incentives to troops and policemen to show "kills." Counterinsurgency officers receive fast-track promotions, as well as monetary and other rewards, for showing results.
> [...]
> This August, the SHRC finally submitted its report on the unmarked graves, which marked the first acknowledgement from any Indian official body of the presence of mass graves and murdered civilians being buried after being *falsely described by Indian troops and police as foreign terrorists.*
> [...]
> India continues to garrison *half a million soldiers in Kashmir*, nearly three times the number of U.S. troops in Iraq at the peak of the occupation. And India's half-century-old Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which was extended to Kashmir in 1990, gives troops the legal authority to shoot any person they suspect of being a threat and *guarantees them immunity from prosecution*. To bring a soldier before a civilian court requires the permission of India's Home Affairs Ministry; there are more than 400 cases still waiting for permission to prosecute troops known to have killed Kashmiri noncombatant civilians. _


 
I know you get a bit uncomfortable when we discuss the reality of Pakistan versus your pious talks.

The facts I mentioned still remain. There are some excesses in any insurgency but that is not a policy.

You may remember innocent Pushtun tribals being beaten by Pakistani army in Swat and other areas.

And I am not even talking of Farhat Taj's accusations against Pakistan as of now about the killing of innocent tribals in the name of fighting Taliban, while actually not really fighting them.


----------



## SpArK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I might try to buy an ebook copy, I don't think it would look nice sitting on my shelf in paperback.
> 
> But first, why exactly do you want me to read it?
> 
> When I see her being invited to Western talk shows, it is usually to talk about the Maoists.



Yes read it and commend on it based on what u read not on wikipedia infos.

Yeah lately the western talk show ones gets people to talk against nations are in demand, thats the issue when we have a very competitive field in there with 1000s of media outlets.


----------



## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> How? Care to explain?



I did in that post itself.

When the vast majority of the population refuses to accept the government as legitimate and a large military presence is deployed to brutally quash dissent, then that government becomes illegitimate for that region. The military presence then becomes an occupying force and there's no such thing as a 'legal' occupation.


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> I know you get a bit uncomfortable when we discuss the reality of Pakistan versus your pious talks.
> 
> The facts I mentioned still remain. There are some excesses in any insurgency but that is not a policy.
> 
> You may remember innocent Pushtun tribals being beaten by Pakistani army in Swat and other areas.
> 
> And I am not even talking of Farhat Taj's accusations against Pakistan as of now about the killing of innocent tribals in the name of fighting Taliban, while actually not really fighting them.



Can you focus on Arundhati Roy & Kashmir please?


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

SpArK said:


> Yes read it and commend on it based on what u read not on wikipedia infos.
> 
> Yeah lately the western talk show ones gets people to talk against nations are in demand, thats the issue when we have a very competitive field in there with 1000s of media outlets.



Hahaha, what you are trying to do... is to stop me from trolling Indian members, and instead get me to read a book that was written by an Indian troll (Ahrundati Roy).

I'll try to find a copy online.


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> Can you focus on Arundhati Roy & Kashmir please?



It is on topic.

It is about explaining a situation and certain policies by drawing parallels that you guys can understand.


----------



## PakShah

bilalhaider said:


> Can you focus on Arundhati Roy & Kashmir please?



I know right, the Indian members only try to lie or distract members from the topic at hand.

India has no reason to be in IOK. Let the Kashmiris choose to be with either Pakistan or independent.

We all know the Kashmiris don't want to be with India.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> I did in that post itself.
> 
> When the vast majority of the population refuses to accept the government as legitimate and a large military presence is deployed to brutally quash dissent, then that government becomes illegitimate for that region. The military presence then becomes an occupying force and there's no such thing as a 'legal' occupation.


 
As I said they can very well finish the unfinished business of partition of liquidating their assets and moving on to the land of milk and honey.

Good for you,good for Kashmiri Muslims and good for us. Win-win situation for all.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SpArK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hahaha, what you are trying to do... is to stop me from trolling Indian members, and instead get me to read a book that was written by an Indian troll (Ahrundati Roy).
> 
> I'll try to find a copy online.




Oops sorry, you continue the trolling mate.

Book is available on ebay.


----------



## Vinod2070

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hahaha, what you are trying to do... is to stop me from trolling Indian members, and instead get me to read a book that was written by an Indian troll (Ahrundati Roy).
> 
> I'll try to find a copy online.



You better take a leave from this thread as evidently you have nothing to contribute.

I will do your job here.

Great power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Global Peace Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Done for now.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> It is on topic.
> 
> It is about explaining a situation and certain policies by drawing parallels that you guys can understand.



There is no parallel. 66% of Kashmiris want to separate from India, KPK or FATA do not have one separatist movement. There are 700,000 troops in Indian occupied Kashmir as well, so there is no similarity or parallels between the situations. So it would be advisable if you focus on the topic of the thread. Appreciate it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LiberalAtheist

off topic but CD i will be coming to Hong Kong soon en route to New Delhi or Amritsar this december  

@topic i cannot believe that people are getting so excited over what this maoist sympathizer says just because she says we should do something doesn't mean we will listen to her and do it. she is no Anna Hazare


----------



## jayron

Vinod2070 said:


> Pakistan tried to get Jungarh and Hyderbad as they were ruled by Muslim rulers (probablt invaders) despite 90% Hindu population. Despite seceding on the basis of Islam and promptly indulging in ethnic cleansing of Hindu Sikhs.
> 
> It also tried to get Kashmir because it had Muslim majority. Even though it has barely 2-3% of Indian Muslims.
> 
> It failed in all three.
> 
> Learn to deal with it.



wow we are so evil. I like it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PakShah

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hahaha, what you are trying to do... is to stop me from trolling Indian members, and instead get me to read a book that was written by an Indian troll (Ahrundati Roy).
> 
> I'll try to find a copy online.



Chinese-Dragon I hope you understand why the Pakistanis, many of your own countrymen, and Nepalese detest India.

Even Arundhati Roy, who is an Indian, knows the truth and knows that the Indian government is full cheaters, hypocrites, and corrupt ********.

Even Mr. Modi, who everybody says has blood on his hands had been reelected as the Chief Minister of Gujarat!

It's simply outrageous!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> There is no parallel. 66% of Kashmiris want to separate from India, KPK or FATA do not have one separatist movement. There are 700,000 troops in Indian occupied Kashmir as well, so there is no similarity or parallels between the situations. So it would be advisable if you focus on the topic of the thread. Appreciate it.



I explained myself. If you don't understand, it is only natural.

Understanding facts and objective has never been a strong point with you guys.


----------



## LiberalAtheist

PakShah said:


> Chinese-Dragon I hope you understand why the Pakistanis, many of your own countrymen, and Nepalese detest India.
> 
> Even Arundhati Roy, who is an Indian, knows the truth and knows* that the Indian government is full cheaters, hypocrites, and corrupt ********.*
> 
> Even Mr. Modi, who everybody says has blood on his hands had been reelected as the Chief Ministers of Gujarat!
> 
> It's simply outrageous!



the bold part we all agree with but it is the same and in fact worse in Pakistan since your gov't does not even run the country the army does  

Modi got reelected because the people of Gujarat voted for him why are you getting mad at the gov't for that? get mad at the people who voted him for him while you Pakistanis hate Modi it will be the day of enlightenment for us if and when he becomes PM in 2014.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

PunjabiSidhu said:


> off topic but CD i will be coming to Hong Kong soon en route to New Delhi or Amritsar this december



If you're only visiting as a transit point, then at least you'll get to check out our airport. Hong Kong airport was voted the best airport in the world several years in a row.  Our airline Cathay Pacific was also voted the best airline several years in a row.

Depending on how much time you get you might want to check out the Peak and the Harbour too, there is an excellent train service to and from the airport.



PakShah said:


> Chinese-Dragon I hope you understand why the Pakistanis, many of your own countrymen, and Nepalese detest India.



Don't worry buddy, I have first hand experience and I know exactly what you are talking about.


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> Not happening. A thing with more probability is Punjab seceding from Pakistan.


 
Their obsession with Tamil Nadu is equally fascinating.

I can never understand what they are taught about it in their * institutes* but they never seem to move beyond a certain date in history. 

My personal guess is, Punjab will be the last man standing.


----------



## nForce

bilalhaider said:


> There is no parallel. 66% of Kashmiris want to separate from India, KPK or FATA do not have one separatist movement. There are 700,000 troops in Indian occupied Kashmir as well, so there is no similarity or parallels between the situations. So it would be advisable if you focus on the topic of the thread. Appreciate it.



where are you getting your figures from? Quote your source.


----------



## KS

Vinod2070 said:


> It failed in all three.
> 
> Learn to deal with it.



It did not end there.

They failed also to retake Siachen four times continuously and now they are singing that Indian presence on the glacier is affecting the ecosystem.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

PakShah said:


> Chinese-Dragon I hope you understand why the Pakistanis, many of your own countrymen, and Nepalese detest India.
> 
> Even Arundhati Roy, who is an Indian, knows the truth and knows that the Indian government is full cheaters, hypocrites, and corrupt ********.
> 
> Even Mr. Modi, who everybody says has blood on his hands had been reelected as the Chief Minister of Gujarat!
> 
> It's simply outrageous!


 
But China is rolling out the red carpet for the same Modi.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> Their obsession with Tamil Nadu is equally fascinating.
> 
> I can never understand what they are taught about it in their * institutes* but they never seem to move beyond a certain date in history.
> 
> My personal guess is, Punjab will be the last man standing.



Is Arundhati Roy from Tamil Nadu or Punjab? Did she talk about either in this thread?

So what does this post have to do with the topic of the thread?


----------



## PakShah

PunjabiSidhu said:


> the bold part we all agree with but it is the same and in fact worse in Pakistan since your gov't does not even run the country the army does
> 
> Modi got reelected because the people of Gujarat voted for him why are you getting mad at the gov't for that? get mad at the people who voted him for him while you Pakistanis hate Modi it will be the day of enlightenment for us if and when he becomes PM in 2014.



Although, this is not the topic at hand, but you support that man who can be charged for crimes against humanity?
Are you insane?

Hahaha, if Mr. Modi gets elected as PM of India, he might share the same destiny as Indira Gandhi's. 

Pakistan has her own problems, but not as much problems or severity India has. Just wait until the War in Terrorism ends, and Pakistan will start prosper.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> I specifically told you the American civil war to show there is also another way to handle these situations. And I think the Kashmir is more analogous to this as armed insurgency was not a part of Puerto Rico issue but it was a part of the American civil war.



Not at all. The Puerto Rico situation also had armed groups but a true democracy like the US handled the situation in a more mature and humane way without resorting to jingoism.



KS said:


> Ok lets make it then as it is very much relevant to this discussion. And I mentioned the American civil war to show that Sovereignity and territorial integrity trumps democracy. BTW since democracy is the will of the majority, the majority in India says No to a referendum..So there goes our democracy discussion.



Again, the Canadian and American scenarios are about individual provinces or territories and their right to decide their future. The future is not dictated be external groups.



KS said:


> How it is any different. Care to elaborate ? I think it is still the same. The inability of a section of Muslims to live with Hindus.



They want what is their due from 1947. The means of achieving the results may change with the times, but their original rights remain unaffected.



KS said:


> True that. They are entitled to democracy *under Indian Constitution* and they also exercised it recently with a huge 88% turnout in local polls.


 
Read above.



KS said:


> British poll or Martian poll. The respondents were still Kashmiris.



And, like I wrote, the ground realities do not mesh with this British poll. We know there are some 'interesting' characters enjoying British hospitality, so we won't lose too much sleep over their propaganda when the actual people living in our areas are not complaining. 



KS said:


> The official estimate is 3.5 Lakh troops and moreover the Army is present only in the border. There is no visible presence in civilian areas.



The actual figure is less important than the magnitude. You say 3.5; international media says 5, some say 7.



KS said:


> BTW noticed that "our Kashmir" and laughed at it. Come take it.



Uh, read that again. I was referring to 'our Kashmir', as in Gilgit, etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

Vinod2070 said:


> But China is rolling out the red carpet for the same Modi.



Hahaha that's probably the one big thing that I disagree with the Pakistanis on.

I like Narenda Modi, his economic and administrative style is very impressive to me. He has a strong result-orientated administrative style, combined with a heavy focus on industrial output. Ticks all the right boxes.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

PakShah said:


> Chinese-Dragon I hope you understand why the Pakistanis, many of your own countrymen, and Nepalese detest India.
> 
> Even Arundhati Roy, who is an Indian, knows the truth and knows that the Indian government is full cheaters, hypocrites, and corrupt ********.
> 
> Even Mr. Modi, who everybody says has blood on his hands had been reelected as the Chief Minister of Gujarat!
> 
> It's simply outrageous!


 
Where did the Nepalese fit in ? 

Their citizens took part in all four wars on our side and served courageously and are still doing so. SO gimme your definition of hate.

They need no visas to visit India and so do Indians to visit Nepal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> I did in that post itself.
> 
> When the vast majority of the population refuses to accept the government as legitimate and a large military presence is deployed to brutally quash dissent, then that government becomes illegitimate for that region. The military presence then becomes an occupying force and there's no such thing as a 'legal' occupation.


Hokum. 

Something is 'illegitimate' if it violates a law (written or unwritten). What you are talking of is 'morality' of State, which is not the same as legitimacy of a State's 'sovereignty'.


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> It did not end there.
> 
> They failed also to retake Siachen four times continuously and now they are singing that Indian presence on the glacier is affecting the ecosystem.


 
This is what I like about them.

They can win consolation prizes for themselves from any situation. Helps them deal with the bad bad world. 

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

It is interesting that USA is now a "true democracy".

Wonder who said they were mere sheeple and that 9/11 was staged by the US government to control that sheeple. 

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Is Arundhati Roy from Tamil Nadu or Punjab? Did she talk about either in this thread?
> 
> So what does this post have to do with the topic of the thread?


 
A "thread" is not about endlessly repeating the same things like a parrot.

It is about discussing the issues being raised by members.


----------



## Developereo

Aryavart said:


> *Jiski Laathi uski Bhains...*



Thank you for being honest.

This is all about military subjugation of the Kashmiri people.


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> Where did the Nepalese fit in ?
> 
> Their citizens took part in all four wars on our side and served courageously and are still doing so. SO gimme your definition of hate.
> 
> They need no visas to visit India and so do Indians to visit Nepal.


 
They need to bring in a non Muslim country as well. Just that compulsive need.


----------



## rockstarIN

PakShah said:


> I know right, the Indian members only try to lie or distract members from the topic at hand.
> 
> India has no reason to be in IOK. Let the Kashmiris choose to be with either Pakistan or independent.
> 
> We all know the Kashmiris don't want to be with India.



They have already chosen by exercising in polls. Get over with Kashmir, you lost years of development coz of 'kashmir emotion'

And if the river water is the real problem, talk with India and share it amicably. In fact that is the real reason, nothing else... No sentiments at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> A "thread" is not about endlessly repeating the same things like a parrot.
> 
> It is about discussing the issues being raised by members.



Yes, discussing on-topic issues. Not talking about 9/11, the US or anything in a thread called "Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir". You can post on other threads about 9/11 or the US. But please, don't post off-topic stuff here. Thanks bro. Appreciate it.


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> Not at all. The Puerto Rico situation also had armed groups but a true democracy like the US handled the situation in a more mature and humane way without resorting to jingoism.


Puerto Rico was a colony of USA. Kashmir is not a colony of India. Different equation. UN has a specific resolution (Millennium resolution) which specifically recognizes the right of self-determination of colonies.

And the residents of Quebec didn't just pick up AK-47s and start shooting the non-French.


----------



## WAQAS119

I salute you Arundati Roy for calling a spade a spade.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> As I said they can very well finish the unfinished business of partition of liquidating their assets and moving on to the land of milk and honey.
> 
> Good for you,good for Kashmiri Muslims and good for us. Win-win situation for all.



Why should they move? It is the Indian occupation forces that should move.

Once again, a true democracy is not afraid to let the people decide and it is precisely in highly controversial issues that the real test of democracy lies. India's refusal to honor democracy in Kashmir speaks volumes.


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, discussing on-topic issues. Not talking about 9/11, the US or anything in a thread called "Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir".



People discuss the issues raised by other members or to draw a parallel.

Don't try and police here. You don't have that job as yet.


----------



## nForce

KS said:


> Where did the Nepalese fit in ?
> 
> Their citizens took part in all four wars on our side and served courageously and are still doing so. SO gimme your definition of hate.
> 
> They need no visas to visit India and so do Indians to visit Nepal.



In addition to that,the Nepalese,Bhutanese people can work in India,without any work-visa.I have got many friends from my college who were Nepalese or Bhutanese and now they are working for various Indian companies just like any other Indian.


----------



## LiberalAtheist

PakShah said:


> Although, this is not the topic at hand, but you support that man who can be charged for crimes against humanity?
> Are you insane.
> 
> Hahaha, if Mr. Modi gets elected as PM of India, he might share the same destiny as Mrs. Gandhi.
> 
> Pakistan has her own problems, but as much problems or severity India has. Just wait* until the War in Terrorism ends, *and Pakistan will start prosper.



Lol the war on terrorism is like the war on drugs you cannot eradicate both completely it is impossible besides there is not even a internationally accepted definition of what a terrorist is. 

what is your proof that Modi has committed crimes against humanity did Modi himself go and kill people or even go as far as helping those commit the crimes? the only thing which he is responsible for is inaction his slow response time in sending in forces caused the damage to be done what you claim to be crimes against humanity you have the wrong CM Mayawati would be a perfect person for trial on charges of crimes against humanity 

Narendra Modi has turned Gujarat into India's most prosperous state by modernization and urbanization if he becomes PM he will do the same for the nation as a whole btw Indira Gandhi was a corrupt autocrat who played corrupt and divisive politics to achieve her means Modi is not corrupt and is a saint compared to Indira Gandhi 

dude your problems have caused your country to be considered a failed state we have 1/3 of our population living in poverty yet we are not considered a failed state not to mention Pakistan is also considered the worlds most dangerous country. even when US leaves Afghanistan you think you will prosper? what happened during Bhutto and Sharif's regimes? did you prosper then?


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> People discuss the issues raised by other members or to draw a parallel.



What parallel does 9/11 & US have with Kashmir or Arundhati Roy? Care to explain?


----------



## Vinod2070

Democracy is a system of governance. Not perfect by any means.

Let's not get carried away. It is not final and perfect like some other systems anyway.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> What parallel does 9/11 & US have with Kashmir or Arundhati Roy? Care to explain?



Read the thread. It is obvious.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Not at all. The Puerto Rico situation also had armed groups but a true democracy like the US handled the situation in a more mature and humane way without resorting to jingoism.



LOL googled Puerto Rican insurgency and google did a blank.

But anyway we look upto the American civil war as an inspiration.




Developereo said:


> Again, the Canadian and American scenarios are about individual provinces or territories and their right to decide their future.



Again I say refer American civil war.If you are not satisfied with it refer the ETA, refer the IRA, refer the LTTE.

Oh BTW using your logic should not have Pakistan not supported the Lankans wo were brutally quashing an insurgency (in your parlance, people's movement for freedom) ?



Developereo said:


> The future is not dictated be external groups.



But in Kashmir, external groups are involved.




Developereo said:


> They want what is their due from 1947. The means of achieving the results may change with the times, but their original rights remain unaffected.



Thats what I am saying. They still can achieve what the millions of Punjabis, Biharis, Hyderabadis achieved - migration to the land of the pure. 




Developereo said:


> Read above.



Read and I still say Kashmiris are happily exercising their democratic right to vote every five years and the last time they did was with a turnout of 88%. Impressive, I must say.




Developereo said:


> And, like I wrote, the ground realities do not mesh with this British poll. We know there are some 'interesting' characters enjoying British hospitality, so we won't lose too much sleep over their propaganda when the actual people living in our areas are not complaining.



Is it 'ground reality' or your version of reality. I am inclined to believe it is the latter.




Developereo said:


> The actual figure is less important than the magnitude. You say 3.5; international media says 5, some say 7.



Actual figure is important as we are the ones deploying them and we know the best. BTW the need for the numbers, Vinod clearly explained.



Developereo said:


> Uh, read that again. I was referring to 'our Kashmir', as in Gilgit, etc.



Oh ok. Be happy with that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LiberalAtheist

Pakistanis hate Modi because they ignorantly consider him to be a mass murderer whereas his governance and economic liberalization of Gujarat has earned him praise world wide no proof exists that ties Modi directly to the riots in fact the people of Gujarat no better as well which is why they reelected him because of him Gujarat is prosperous.


----------



## MilSpec

Does M/s Roy hold an opinion on kashmiri pandits, LET, JEM too? its very easy to see one side of the coin . What about pakistans proxy war?


----------



## rockstarIN

sandy_3126 said:


> Does M/s Roy hold an opinion on kashmiri pandits, LET, JEM too? its very easy to see one side of the coin . What about pakistans proxy war?



She is afraid of those, she knew Indians will tolerate her.


----------



## Developereo

bilalhaider said:


> it would be advisable if you focus on the topic of the thread. Appreciate it.



They will never do that.

This is the signature _modus operandi_ of the Indian troll parade. When they can't address the topic at hand, they wander off into self-invoked tangents and launch into a posting binge of off-topic propaganda to derail the thread.

It's only a matter of time before the 'Muslim invasion of India' gets dragged in here somehow, full of videos and links about that period. Some people use every thread as an opportunity to vomit their stock propaganda.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Why should they move? It is the Indian occupation forces that should move.
> 
> Once again, a true democracy is not afraid to let the people decide and it is precisely in highly controversial issues that the real test of democracy lies. India's refusal to honor democracy in Kashmir speaks volumes.



They should move because that was Partition.

I dont know why a choice that was not given to millions of Punjabis, Bengalis,Biharis,Sindhis be given to the Kashmiri Muslims alone ?

ROFL.. let go of the democracy charade will ya ? I have given you many examples of functioning democracies like US,UK,Spain etc not tolerating a threat to their sovereignty and upholding it by all means necessary.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

Vinod2070 said:


> Read the thread. It is obvious.



It's not. 9/11 & US have no parallels with Kashmir or Arundhati Roy.


----------



## Vinod2070

Arundhati has only made a fool of herself after she started dabbling into issues where she has limited experience.

She should continue writing the books.


----------



## PakShah

*Arundhati calls for revoking AFSPA from J&K*
New York: Indian writer Arundhati Roy has said revoking the armed forces act from Jammu and Kashmir and demilitarisation is required to ensure the right of self-determination to the people of the state and a country cannot call itself a democracy if people are forced to live under military rule.



"I want to say unambiguously that I do not think any country that calls itself a democracy has the right to force people to remain in it in a militaristic way, the way that India is doing in order to prove that it's a secular country," Roy said at a panel discussion on Kashmir at the Asia Society here.

"I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination, they have the right to choose who they want to be and how they want to be. The first step would be to demilitarise, to withdraw this absolutely unbelievable law the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA)," Roy said. 

PTI

http://zeenews.**********/news/jamm...lls-for-revoking-afspa-from-jandk_741448.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

lol 
Even Indian media cannot keep lying forever, because she spoke at an international place, and international media picked it up.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WAQAS119

sandy_3126 said:


> Does M/s Roy hold an opinion on kashmiri pandits, LET, JEM too? its very easy to see one side of the coin .


According to her, it is just like 1857 onwards scenario. Fighting against occupation forces.


----------



## harshad

why doesnt any pakistani show the same concern they share with kashmiri with srilankan tamils and chinese tibetans?
hypocracy or the kafir thing?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LiberalAtheist

you Pakistanis are going crazy as if something will happen just because she said something  you think we care what a Naxalite and terrorist sympathizer thinks?


----------



## danger007

WAQAS119 said:


> I salute you Arundati Roy for calling a spade a spade.



is she PDF member or is she ready marriage


so many flirting that old chick


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> They should move because that was Partition.
> 
> I dont know why a choice that was not given to millions of Punjabis, Bengalis,Biharis,Sindhis be given to the Kashmiri Muslims alone ?
> 
> ROFL.. let go of the democracy charade will ya ? I have given you many examples of functioning democracies like US,UK,Spain etc not tolerating a threat to their sovereignty and upholding it by all means necessary.


 
Now you are talking facts.


----------



## 53fd

PunjabiSidhu said:


> you Pakistanis are going crazy as if something will happen just because she said something  you think we care what a Naxalite and terrorist sympathizer thinks?



you clearly do care enough because you continue to post on this thread relentlessly.


----------



## Paan Singh

so why is A ROy given too much importance??
whats the relation of her with pakistanis??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LiberalAtheist

bilalhaider said:


> you clearly do care enough because you continue to post on this thread relentlessly.



are you kidding? i'm just enjoying reading all the troll posts made by both sides on this thread  quite entertaining and its funny at the level of off topic posting going on of course i am guessing you agree with me on the fact that just because she says something it ain't gonna happen


----------



## PakShah

bilalhaider said:


> you clearly do care enough because you continue to post on this thread relentlessly.



On Mr. Modi this is response to Chinese-Dragon, I'm not denying that he not good at his job, that is working for the economic prosperity of Gujarat, but there is a lot of people who say he is biased against Muslims.


----------



## LaBong

India is bad. 

But you couldn't do a shyt about it!


----------



## KS

LOL..Pakistan's modus operandi on Kashmir is a lesson on how *NOT* to do things when you are going to stake claim on a territory.

when staking claim on Kashmir on the basis of population they for some reason accepted the accession of Hyderabad an Junagadh in which > 90% were Hindus. Mistake #1.

If decided to attack they should have attacked with full force and not sent in a raiding party..this gave the Majaraja time to ponder and accede to India..Mistake # 2.

Should not have trusted the Kashmiri Muslims fully with their plans..usually leads to disaster as in 1965 war....and should not have thought lightly of the enemy due to some theory of 1 Pak = 10 Hidus...Mistake # 3

Should not have unilaterally initiated operations on Western front knowing fully well they are going to be defeated..Mistake # 4

While trying to capture Siachen should not have ordered arctic gear with the firm that supplies the Indian Army..Mistake # 5

The thought that since russia could be defeated by jihad...so can be India...mistake # 6 

I can go on...but this will give countries with future plans to claim territories on what not to do while doing so..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Developereo

toxic_pus said:


> Hokum.
> 
> Something is 'illegitimate' if it violates a law (written or unwritten). What you are talking of is 'morality' of State, which is not the same as legitimacy of a State's 'sovereignty'.



When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'. The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.



toxic_pus said:


> Puerto Rico was a colony of USA. Kashmir is not a colony of India. Different equation. UN has a specific resolution (Millennium resolution) which specifically recognizes the right of self-determination of colonies.
> 
> And the residents of Quebec didn't just pick up AK-47s and start shooting the non-French.



Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.

The residents of Kashmir wouldn't pick up guns either if their peaceful demands had been respected. They gave peace a chance for 40+ years.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LaBong

SMC said:


> So she's a traitor for saying this?  And bharatis start getting angry when a Pakistani calls one our far left wing journalist a traitor. What a bunch of hypocrites these guys are. Surely it's your genes, no? I've never seen a group of people are hypocritical as the bharatis.



Wrong analogy, the far left journalist don't call for sedition of Pakistan. Those who do, ISI takes care of them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'. The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.


 
Are you talking about Balochistan. ? .I see that Sovereignity there is maintained only at the gun point fby FC and Army..



Developereo said:


> Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.
> .



I dont know about US..we dont call it 'Administered'. It is one of the 28 states in the Indian Union ..like for example Texas is one of the 50 states in US.


----------



## LaBong

Developereo said:


> When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'. The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.



If we use the same yardstick, then Baluchistan and Fata also become occupied territory. Heck even Karachi becomes too! 





> Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.
> 
> The residents of Kashmir wouldn't pick up guns either if their peaceful demands had been respected. They gave peace a chance for 40+ years.



Please understand what Toxic_Pus has said, the situation doesn't become analogous just because you say so.



> *UN has a specific resolution (Millennium resolution) *which specifically recognizes the right of self-determination of colonies.


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> Wrong analogy, the far left journalist don't call for sedition of Pakistan. Those who do, ISI takes care of them.



Not the ISI, the government of Pakistan. According to Mike Mullen.


----------



## nForce

Developereo said:


> When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'. The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.
> 
> 
> 
> Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.
> 
> The residents of Kashmir wouldn't pick up guns either if their peaceful demands had been respected. They gave peace a chance for 40+ years.



it was not the people declaring secession.It was more like Pakistan trying an occupation before even it has learnt to stand on own feet.Till then Kashmir used to be a free territory.We all know how things turned out to be.

Pakistani leadership has historically shown their shortsightedness and incapability to take decisions using their mind over heart,and this incident is no exception.


----------



## PakShah

KS said:


> Are you talking about Balochistan. ? .I see that Sovereignity there is maintained only at the gun point fby FC and Army..



Stop trolling about Balochistan. Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir is.

Even ask Balochis on defence.pk and they say they are very patriotic Pakistanis.


----------



## Paan Singh

PakShah said:


> Stop trolling about Balochistan. Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir is.
> 
> Even ask Balochis on defence.pk and they say they are very patriotic Pakistanis.



kashmir issue is unbindable in UN and these issues are not solved mostly..


----------



## xTra

PakShah said:


> Stop trolling about Balochistan. Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir is.
> 
> Even ask Balochis on defence.pk and they say they are very patriotic Pakistanis.



What about Azad Kashmir.


----------



## KS

PakShah said:


> Stop trolling about Balochistan. Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir is.
> 
> Even ask Balochis on defence.pk and they say they are very patriotic Pakistanis.



But I thought that if people declare secession from a country and Army is sent there to crush it..it automatically becomes 'occupied and disputed'. 

Both has happened in Balochistan..and according to the same criteria laid down by a Pak member, B'stan is occupied.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PakShah

KS said:


> But I thought that if people declare secession from a country and Army is sent there to crush it..it automatically becomes 'occupied and disputed'.
> 
> Both has happened in Balochistan..and according to the same criteria laid down by a Pak member, B'stan is occupied.



Almost all Balochis want to stay with Pakistan. Stop talking nonsense.

*Roy slams world&#8217;s silence on Indian occupation of Kashmir*






Renowned Indian writer and activist Arundhati Roy.&#8212;File Photo

NEW YORK: Renowned Indian activist and novelist Arundhati Roy has decried the silence of the international community over the continued &#8220;brutal Indian occupation of Kashmir&#8221; and said Kashmiris should be given the right to self-determination.



&#8220;Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world &#8212; and one of the most ignored,&#8221; she told a large audience at the Asia Society during a discussion on &#8220;Kashmir &#8212; a case for freedom&#8221;.

Under the Indian military rule in Kashmir, Ms Roy said, freedom of speech was non-existent and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and the press controlled.

She said the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-totting security personnel who harassed and terrorised people with impunity, adding that disappearances were almost a daily occurrence as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remains unstirred.

The outspoken activist, who surprised the audience with her candour, called for demilitarising Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. &#8220;Why the international community doesn&#8217;t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn&#8217;t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.&#8221;

Ms Roy accused US President Barack Obama of stepping back from calling for a solution of the Kashmir issue after initially supporting it, but relenting after seeing `consternation&#8217; in India over his remarks.

&#8220;He (Mr Obama) hasn&#8217;t said a word about Kashmir since,&#8221; she said, adding that the US president was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.

The apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, Ms Roy said, was because of their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to &#8220;sell their goods than human rights&#8221;.

She said India had also successfully used the argument that if it gave up Kashmir another Islamic state would emerge &#8212; a prospect the West feared. &#8220;That&#8217;s why India had made no effort to bring back to the valley Kashmiri Pandits who fled to camps in New Delhi at the height of the 1998 uprising in the state. Aren&#8217;t 700,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?&#8221;

She said so little was known about the atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.

More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with checkpoints at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence, she added, was in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq.

Ms Roy alleged that Indian army or security personnel were killing young children, adding that Kashmiris were not radical Islamists or jihadists as India portrayed them. She deplored the Indian government&#8217;s attempts to demonise Kashmiris who were moderate Muslims.

Roy slams world

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## WAQAS119

Abir said:


> If we use the same yardstick, then Baluchistan and Fata also become occupied territory. Heck even Karachi becomes too!



Go, tell that to UN. 
United Nations has a resolution on Kashmir.



> Please understand what Toxic_Pus has said, the situation doesn't become analogous just because you say so.



We say so?
Guardian is not a Pakistan news agency, or is it?
WikiLeaks cables: India accused of systematic use of torture in Kashmir | World news | The Guardian

Arundhati Roy faces arrest over Kashmir remark | World news | The Guardian

Kashmir unmarked graves hold thousands of bodies | World news | The Guardian

Shame on India.


----------



## LaBong

WAQAS119 said:


> Go, tell that to UN.
> United Nations has a resolution on Kashmir.
> 
> 
> 
> We say so?
> Guardian is not a Pakistan news agency, or is it?
> WikiLeaks cables: India accused of systematic use of torture in Kashmir | World news | The Guardian
> 
> Arundhati Roy faces arrest over Kashmir remark | World news | The Guardian
> 
> Kashmir unmarked graves hold thousands of bodies | World news | The Guardian
> 
> Same on India.



Understand the context of post and then try again.


----------



## KS

PakShah said:


> Almost all Balochis want to stay with Pakistan. Don't know what you are talking about.


 
'Almost' all Balochis....Not 'All' Balochis right ?

p.s: - Please dont post her picture even if you are posting her article..She is so fugly that it makes me puke...


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> LOL googled Puerto Rican insurgency and google did a blank.



Try FALN



KS said:


> Again I say refer American civil war.If you are not satisfied with it refer the ETA, refer the IRA, refer the LTTE.



Perhaps you can show me where Spain or England brutalised the Basque or Irish civilians, the way India is documented to have done in Kashmir.

Even little old Sudan allowed a referendum to allow the south to secede. Perhaps India can learn democracy from Sudan!



KS said:


> Oh BTW using your logic should not have Pakistan not supported the Lankans wo were brutally quashing an insurgency (in your parlance, people's movement for freedom) ?



The Kashmiris are explicitly asking our support; the Tamils were asking India.



KS said:


> But in Kashmir, external groups are involved.



Regardless of Pakistani involvement, indigenous Kashmiris are asking for independence. 66 percent of them.



KS said:


> Thats what I am saying. They still can achieve what the millions of Punjabis, Biharis, Hyderabadis achieved - migration to the land of the pure.



Again, that is not what democracies do. Either India is a democracy or it's not.



KS said:


> Is it 'ground reality' or your version of reality. I am inclined to believe it is the latter.



It's the reality that doesn't require us to place 500K boots on the ground.



KS said:


> Actual figure is important as we are the ones deploying them and we know the best. BTW the need for the numbers, Vinod clearly explained.



The actual figure is confidential. The best recourse is to accept the international figure of 500K which splits the Indian/Pakistani difference.


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> But I thought that if people declare secession from a country and Army is sent there to crush it..it automatically becomes 'occupied and disputed'.
> 
> Both has happened in Balochistan..and according to the same criteria laid down by a Pak member, B'stan is occupied.



Except that there isn't any Army sent to crush it. Just the Frontier Corps personnel. It falls under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of States and Frontier Regions, not the Army. They are regular security personnel. In Kashmir though, there are 700,000 Indian troops and paramilitaries


----------



## WAQAS119

KS said:


> Both has happened in Balochistan..and according to the same criteria laid down by a Pak member, B'stan is occupied.



It could be, according to you, but not according to world, as you are looking for a justification of mass killings in Kashmir and unjustifiable occupation of Kashmir.


----------



## Paan Singh

bilalhaider said:


> Except that there isn't any Army sent to crush it. Just the Frontier Corps personnel. It falls under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of States and Frontier Regions, not the Army. They are regular security personnel. In Kashmir though, there are 700,000 Indian troops and paramilitaries




there are no 700000 personnel ,upto maximum 300000


----------



## LaBong

WAQAS119 said:


> It could be, according to you, but not according to world, as you are looking for a justification of mass killings in Kashmir and unjustifiable occupation of Kashmir.



And let me guess, world == PDF!


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> If we use the same yardstick, then Baluchistan and Fata also become occupied territory. Heck even Karachi becomes too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand what Toxic_Pus has said, the situation doesn't become analogous just because you say so.



When did the people of Karachi/FATA declare secession from the state? When did Pakistan send the Army in Karachi?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WAQAS119

KS said:


> 'Almost' all Balochis....Not 'All' Balochis right ?



Yeap! Almost all, not all. And you think those two or three culprits are enough for you to justify unjustifiable Kashmir Occupation by India?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

Prism said:


> there are no 700000 personnel ,upto maximum 300000



According to Indians yes, there are 300,000. But I quoted the Time magazine that stated there are 700,000 Indian troops and paramilitaries in Kashmir.


----------



## WAQAS119

Abir said:


> And let me guess, world == PDF!



Let me again remind you of a United Nations resolution on Kashmir not Baluchistan.


----------



## PakShah

KS said:


> 'Almost' all Balochis....Not 'All' Balochis right ?
> 
> p.s: - Please dont post her picture even if you are posting her article..She is so fugly that it makes me puke...



There is only one Balochi who wants independence for Balochistan and he is hiding in Switzerland. 

Don't talk nonsense. Balochistan is not disputed territory.

As for China and Mr. Modi, whatever happens in India, is India's internal affairs. All Muslim countries know whatever happens in India, is India's internal affair. That is why Pakistan was not disturbed by China hosting Mr. Modi, because Pakistan would have done the same, even if Mr. Modi is a muderer.

If the Indians want to elect a person who people think is a murderer as their Chief Minister or Prime Minister that is their internal affair.

Its aganist Islam to intervene in other countries's internal affairs.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> Are you talking about Balochistan. ? .I see that Sovereignity there is maintained only at the gun point fby FC and Army..



Do you have consistent, reliable polls showing an overwhelming majority of Baluchis want to secede?



KS said:


> I dont know about US..we dont call it 'Administered'. It is one of the 28 states in the Indian Union ..like for example Texas is one of the 50 states in US.



PR is an administered territory of the US. Kashmir is officially considered 'Indian administered Kashmir' by the international community.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> When did the people of Karachi/FATA declare secession from the state? When did Pakistan send the Army in Karachi?



Google it me boy.


----------



## Developereo

nForce said:


> it was not the people declaring secession.It was more like Pakistan trying an occupation before even it has learnt to stand on own feet.Till then Kashmir used to be a free territory.We all know how things turned out to be.
> 
> Pakistani leadership has historically shown their shortsightedness and incapability to take decisions using their mind over heart,and this incident is no exception.



I already posted a link showing 66% of people in the valley want to secede from India.


----------



## LaBong

Developereo said:


> Do you have consistent, reliable polls showing an overwhelming majority of Baluchis want to secede?



Show me a poll where it says whole of Kashmir want secede.


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> Google it me boy.



I think you need to understand the difference between Frontier Corps, Frontier Constabulary & other types of forces.


----------



## LaBong

Developereo said:


> I already posted a link showing 66% of people in the valley want to secede from India.



There you go, in your twisted logic, valley becomes the voice of whole of Kashmir.

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> I think you need to understand the difference between Frontier Corps, Frontier Constabulary & other types of forces.



I think you need understand the meaning of armed forces.


----------



## WAQAS119

Developereo said:


> I already posted a link showing 66% of people in the valley want to secede from India.



And those 34% includes hindu families migrating from different parts of India to Indian Occupied Kashmir.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> Try FALN



A marxist Leninist terrorist group that set of 100 bombs from '74 to '83 and has been dissolved two decades back. I see no analogy with Kashmir.




Developereo said:


> Perhaps you can show me where Spain or England brutalised the Basque or Irish civilians, the way India is documented to have done in Kashmir.



Goalpost shift.

The question was never Brutalising..Was it ? It was always about Democracy vs Territoral Integrity and which took primacy..The actions of US, UK, Spain, Lanka clearly show the Territorial Integrity trumped democracy.




Developereo said:


> Even little old Sudan allowed a referendum to allow the south to secede. Perhaps India can learn democracy from Sudan!



Sudan was 'forced' to allow. The Janjaweed were in no mood to let go of the supposedly inferior blacks. But then...




Developereo said:


> The Kashmiris are explicitly asking our support; the Tamils were asking India.



You are more than welcome to help them..If that does not sink your country even deeper..




Developereo said:


> Regardless of Pakistani involvement, indigenous Kashmiris are asking for independence. 66 percent of them.



And they can do what the Punjabis,Sindhis,Bengalis,Biharis did in 1947..Liquidating the assets and packing their bags.




Developereo said:


> Again, that is not what democracies do. Either India is a democracy or it's not.



That is what happened during Partition and that is what will happen if Partition is to be completed. NO new set of criteria.



Developereo said:


> It's the reality that doesn't require us to place 500K boots on the ground.



Boots that are required to keep the rats crawling in from the other side in check. You dont have that problem.




Developereo said:


> The actual figure is confidential. The best recourse is to accept the international figure of 500K which splits the Indian/Pakistani difference.



It is not so confidential when you have relatives serving there..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> I think you need understand the meaning of armed forces.



You better understand some security forces fall under the jurisdiction of the government, whereas others fall under the jurisdiction of the military. Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?


----------



## nForce

WAQAS119 said:


> Let me again remind you of a United Nations resolution on Kashmir not Baluchistan.



The same resolution says Pakistan has to vacate the part of Kashmir that they occupied before Indian military stepped in,for plebiscite to happen.


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> PR is an administered territory of the US. Kashmir is officially considered 'Indian administered Kashmir' by the international community.


 
International community.

When do we people heed to the concerns of the international community. Is it not the interests of our nations that take primacy ? (this is a trick question )


----------



## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> You better understand some security forces fall under the jurisdiction of the government, whereas others fall under the jurisdiction of the military. Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?



Doesn't matter what jurisdiction and what corps as long as you keep crushing indigenous movement by virtue of arms, those who getting mowed down don't fret over semantics.


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> Now I'm asking you again, *when* has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?



Way back in 1948 to invade Balochistan, arrest the Khan of Kalat, take him to Karachi at gunpoint and make him sign the accession document and to crush the rebellion of Prince Abdul Karim Khan to present for crushing the Fifth Baloch war of Independence..


----------



## PakShah

bilalhaider said:


> You better understand some security forces fall under the jurisdiction of the government, whereas others fall under the jurisdiction of the military. Now I'm asking you again, when has the Pakistan Army been deployed in Karachi or Balochistan?



These jingoistic Indians keep derailing the thread by inviting Mr. Agha Khan, Mr. Modi in China, calling Arundhati Roy fugly, Balochistan, Karachi, FATA,...  

There are no UN resolutions against Pakistan on Balochistan. There are no protests of Balochis who want a plebiscite on independence from Pakistan.

There is only one Balochi who wants independence for Balochistan and he is hiding in Switzerland.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

Developereo said:


> When a people declare secession from a state and the state refuses to accept it and sends an army, then the territoty becomes an 'occupied territory'.


Wrong. 

You have put the cart before the horse. What is needed to be examined is if 'peoples' (note the 's') have the right to declare secession from a State, and under what circumstances. This is to be viewed along with the State's right of territorial integrity. And it is in this context I had asked the question, if Kashmir's accession to India was illegitimate i.e. in violation of any extant law. 

If the territorial integration of Kashmir is good in law, then India has _de jure_ sovereignty over Kashmir. That means, India's right to territorial integrity is good in law as well. Sending an army to such a territory, ostensibly in rebellion, is not an act of 'occupation' but is an exercise of State's right (e.g. PA in Balochistan).

This leads us to examine if Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. UN Millennium resolution clearly identifies right to self determination under two conditions - 'colonial domination' and 'foreign occupation'. Kashmir fulfills none of the conditions. 

Q.E.D



> The state's 'sovereignty' is only enforced at the point of a gun.


May be so. The question however is not how it is being enforced. The question is if State has the right to do so.




> Both PR and Kashmir are officially classified as 'administered' by their respective powers. The situation is entirely analogous.


Not really. The so called official classification is merely for convenience of identification. UN officially doesn't recognize these terminologies, although it uses these for convenience. UN maps clearly label the entire Kashmir (Indian and Pakistan) as 'Jammu and Kashmir'.


> The residents of Kashmir wouldn't pick up guns either if their peaceful demands had been respected. They gave peace a chance for 40+ years.


Actually, before 1989 their demand had very little currency in Kashmir. It started only with a little 'help' from their good friends.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nForce

Developereo said:


> I already posted a link showing 66% of people in the valley want to secede from India.



Can I get the link again?the thread has become quite long and its getting difficult to browse through.


----------



## KS

PakShah said:


> These jingoist Indians keep derailing the thread by inviting Mr. Agha Khan, Mr. Modi in China, calling Arundhati Roy fugly, Balochistan, Karachi, FATA,...
> 
> There are no UN resolutions against Pakistan on Balochistan. There are no protests of Balochis who want a plebiscite on independence from Pakistan.
> 
> There is only one Balochi who wants independence for Balochistan and he is hiding in Switzerland.



Again Mr.Shah according to your ThinkTank , if a set of people unilaterally declare secession and if the Army is sent to crush that then automatically the territory becomes "occupied and disputed" and Balochistan satisfies both the criteria.


----------



## LaBong

WAQAS119 said:


> And those 34% includes hindu families migrating from different parts of India to Indian Occupied Kashmir.



It really should have done, but our myopic leaders void us of that choice.

However that survey doesn't include exiled Kashmiri Pundits.


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> Doesn't matter what jurisdiction and what corps as long as you keep crushing indigenous movement by virtue of arms, those who getting mowed down don't fret over semantics.



There is a fundamental difference between regular security personnel & military personnel, which I have exposed you to. Pakistan has regular security personnel in Karachi & Balochistan, like India has in its Naxal hit states. Now India has 700,000 military troops & paramilitaries, completely different to what you have in your Naxal hit areas. You have CRPFs in your Naxal areas. Pakistan has about 120,000 military troops & paramilitary in FATA & KPK. Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> There is a fundamental difference between regular security personnel & military personnel, which I have exposed you to. Pakistan has regular security personnel in Karachi & Balochistan, like India has in its Naxal hit states. Now India has 700,000 military troops & paramilitaries, completely different to what you have in your Naxal hit areas. Pakistan has about 120,000 military troops & paramilitary in FATA & KPK. Don't talk about things you know little about.



So according to your logic as Indian Army has more personnel than Pakistan Army - Baluchistan, KP and FATA is justified but Kashmir is not. 

You better go into your bot mode and start posting from random missionary site, logic is not exactly your strong point.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> A marxist Leninist terrorist group that set of 100 bombs from '74 to '83 and has been dissolved two decades back. I see no analogy with Kashmir.



It doesn't matter if they were cat worshippers. The point is that they opposed US control of PR and did so with military force.



KS said:


> Goalpost shift.
> 
> The question was never Brutalising..Was it ? It was always about Democracy vs Territoral Integrity and which took primacy..The actions of US, UK, Spain, Lanka clearly show the Territorial Integrity trumped democracy.



No shift. I was pointing out the difference in the way these countries approached the problem. It was in the context of your reference to armed resistance.

Also, I notice you consistently put US in there, as if the 200 year old civil war has any relevance today. Try using the more contemporary example of Puerto Rico to see how a true democracy handles it.

As for Britain and Spain, it just shows they hadn't lost their colonial mindset even towards their own people. Ironic that India should use ex-colonists as a role model instead of more progressive examples like the US and Canada.



KS said:


> Sudan was 'forced' to allow. The Janjaweed were in no mood to let go of the supposedly inferior blacks. But then...



Either way, that's the democractic approach.



KS said:


> You are more than welcome to help them..If that does not sink your country even deeper..



We are not the world's policeman; we can only help people who explicitly ask our help.

But I understand India was more than willing to help the Sri Lankan Tamils by creating/funding/training the LTTE. That is, until they went crazy and started causing trouble within India itself.



KS said:


> And they can do what the Punjabis,Sindhis,Bengalis,Biharis did in 1947..Liquidating the assets and packing their bags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what happened during Partition and that is what will happen if Partition is to be completed. NO new set of criteria.



You are just repeating yourself, so this is not going anywhere.



KS said:


> Boots that are required to keep the rats crawling in from the other side in check. You dont have that problem.



Already debunked. You don't need 500K troops to catch stragglers across the border.

The link I already posted showed how the army is systematically engaged in brutalizing the civilians population and gets rewarded monetarily and senioritywise for 'kills'. Even when the 'kills' are innocent civilians falsely accused of terrorism.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## PakShah

*Revoke AFSPA, demilitarise JK: Arundhati*







&#8216;People In Kashmir Should Be Given Right To Self-Determination&#8217;
PRESS TRUST OF INDIA
SmallerDefaultLarger

New York, Nov 12: Noted Indian writer Arundhati Roy has said revoking the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from Jammu and Kashmir and demilitarisation is required to ensure the right of self-determination to the people of the state. She said a country cannot call itself a democracy if people are forced to live under military rule.
&#8220;I want to say unambiguously that I do not think any country that calls itself a democracy has the right to force people to remain in it in a militaristic way, the way that India is doing in order to prove that it&#8217;s a secular country,&#8221; Roy said at a panel discussion on &#8216;Kashmir: The Case for Freedom&#8217; at the Asia Society here.
&#8220;I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination, they have the right to choose who they want to be and how they want to be. The first step would be to demilitarise, to withdraw this absolutely unbelievable law the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA),&#8221; Roy said.
She said Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored. &#8220;While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,&#8221; she said and called for demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. &#8220;Why the international community doesn&#8217;t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn&#8217;t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.&#8221;
She lamented that so little is known about the &#8220;atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.&#8221;
&#8220;More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq,&#8221; she pointed out.
Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights.
&#8220;Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring&#8212;three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,&#8221; she said, adding that the security forces there were not looking away; &#8220;they were killing young children.&#8221;
&#8220;In Kashmir freedom of speech is non-existent and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and press controlled and the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel,&#8221; Roy said and added that disappearances were almost a daily occurrence in Kashmir as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. &#8220;Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred,&#8221; she said.
She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing &#8220;consternation&#8221; in India over the remark, Obama hasn&#8217;t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.
Roy said India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge - a prospect the West feared. &#8220;That&#8217;s why India had made no effort to bring back to the Valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled at the height of armed uprising in the state. Aren&#8217;t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?&#8221; she asked.
Two other Indian writers - Pankaj Mishra and a PhD student, Muhammad Junaid, from Kashmir - also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people. (with inputs from other agencies)

Lastupdate on : Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:30:00 Mecca time 
Lastupdate on : Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:30:00 GMT
Lastupdate on : Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:00:00 IST

Revoke AFSPA demilitarise JK Arundhati Lastupdate:- Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

This article is from Kashmiri's media in IOK. This is not Indian biased media.


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> So according to your logic as Indian Army has more personnel than Pakistan Army - Baluchistan, KP and FATA is justified but Kashmir is not.



Kid, the Pakistan Army is not involved in Balochistan. How many times have I told you 

I never said anything like that. You are free to have your troops there. Just try to learn the difference between regular security personnel & military personnel before you start to talk about secessionist movements.


----------



## blackjack

66% of the people of valley. My question is then, what about people of Jammu, People of Ladakh. Doesn't their opinion count as well? Or Pakistani members will want to ignore those regions simply because they are non Muslim majority areas? What about Kargil, Drass and Batalik? 

Also didn't the UN resolution include that Kashmir areas that are under Pakistani control now? And what about the UN resolution condition that Pakistani forces have to fall back to their Sep 1947 position for the referendum to take place?


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> Again Mr.Shah according to your ThinkTank , if a set of people unilaterally declare secession and if the Army is sent to crush that then automatically the territory becomes "occupied and disputed" and Balochistan satisfies both the criteria.



The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces. It's similar to the CRPFs in your Naxal areas.


----------



## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> Kid, the Pakistan Army is not involved in Balochistan. How many times have I told you
> 
> I never said anything like that. You are free to have your troops there. Just try to learn the difference between regular security personnel & military personnel before you start to talk about secessionist movements.



You should go back and read all the posts again, this time slowly.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces.



So does the Rashtriya Rifles.


----------



## Developereo

KS said:


> International community.
> 
> When do we people heed to the concerns of the international community. Is it not the interests of our nations that take primacy ? (this is a trick question )



See below.



toxic_pus said:


> Wrong.
> 
> You have put the cart before the horse. What is needed to be examined is if 'peoples' (note the 's') have the right to declare secession from a State, and under what circumstances. This is to be viewed along with the State's right of territorial integrity. And it is in this context I had asked the question, if Kashmir's accession to India was illegitimate i.e. in violation of any extant law.
> 
> If the territorial integration of Kashmir is good in law, then India has _de jure_ sovereignty over Kashmir. That means, India's right to territorial integrity is good in law as well. Sending an army to such a territory, ostensibly in rebellion, is not an act of 'occupation' but is an exercise of State's right (e.g. PA in Balochistan).
> 
> This leads us to examine if Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. UN Millennium resolution clearly identifies right to self determination under two conditions - 'colonial domination' and 'foreign occupation'. Kashmir fulfills none of the conditions.
> 
> Q.E.D



That's fundamentally flawed.

The international community considers Kashmir is being under Indian administration; i.e. it does not 'belong' to India. India currently controls a territory whose status is under dispute.

From the UN map you posted states

_The final status of Jammu and Kashmir has not been agreed upon by the parties.

The boundaries and names shown on this map *do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations.*_

In plain English, it means the area is 'on loan' to India to be administered until its status is resolved to the satisfaction of the international community.



toxic_pus said:


> Actually, before 1989 their demand had very little currency in Kashmir. It started only with a little 'help' from their good friends.



Sure. They were all asleep until Pakistan came and woke them up. Pakistan manufactured the 66% secession support out of the blue.

PS. Gotta go. Talk later.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Developereo said:


> It doesn't matter if they were cat worshippers. The point is that they opposed US control of PR and did so with military force.



And they did not achieve their goal. Neither are the pak backed Kashmiri groups going to.




Developereo said:


> No shift. I was pointing out the difference in the way these countries approached the problem. It was in the context of your reference to armed resistance.



Again there were armed insurgencies in US,UK,Spain,Lanka etc and they went the way India has gone. I dont know what is so hard to understand here.




Developereo said:


> Also, I notice you consistently put US in there, as if the 200 year old civil war has any relevance today. Try using the more contemporary example of Puerto Rico to see how a true democracy handles it.



200 years ? Your maths suck big time.

Anyway it is not a question of when..it is a question of "did they" and they did. BTW I gave you the most recent example, a late as 2008, Lanka.




Developereo said:


> As for Britain and Spain, it just shows they hadn't lost their colonial mindset even towards their own people. Ironic that India should use ex-colonists as a role model instead of more progressive examples like the US and Canada.



LOL Rationalizations. 
We chose what we chose. Not what others want us to chose. Got it sonny ?



Developereo said:


> Either way, that's the democractic approach.



Good for them.




Developereo said:


> We are not the world's policeman; we can only help people who explicitly ask our help.
> 
> But I understand India was more than willing to help the Sri Lankan Tamils by creating/funding/training the LTTE. That is, until they went crazy and started causing trouble within India itself.



As I said you are more than welcome to help them..if only it doesn't sink your country deeper into chaos..




Developereo said:


> You are just repeating yourself, so this is not going anywhere.



Exactly.

We can never see face to face on anything. So stop complaining on an online fora and do something to help the Kashmiris..Clearly you are not doing enough..




Developereo said:


> Already debunked. You don't need 500K troops to catch stragglers across the border.



I never knew you were a real Army general who knew the intricacies of manpower need. You ought to be on the border fighting those Talibs..



Developereo said:


> The link I already posted showed how the army is systematically engaged in brutalizing the civilians population and gets rewarded monetarily and senioritywise for 'kills'. Even when the 'kills' are innocent civilians falsely accused of terrorism.



It did not show anything except to what extent you people can be brainwashed. If the people start an armed insurgency to win freedom there is no point cribbing about loss of life. We will do everything in our means to crush it.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces. It's similar to the CRPFs in your Naxal areas.


 
So is the case here sonny.



Abir said:


> So does the Rashtriya Rifles.



BTW I also said the Army was sent there in 1948 itself to annex Balochistan, capture its leader, take him to karachi where he was forced to accede to Pakistan and be ever there to crush the five wars of independence..the last one which is still goin on.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> So does the Rashtriya Rifles.



The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir. 

India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps there.


----------



## KS

bilalhaider said:


> The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir.
> 
> India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps.



And they are on the border on the LoC not in civvie areas.

Dont tell me now that the Iranian border is policed by the FC..


----------



## LaBong

Let me quote from &#8220;Shadow War&#8221; written by Arif Jamal [Page 172], a visiting fellow at NYU. He is a Pakistani journalist and so I believe that this will not be dismissed as Indian/Hindu/Kashmiri Pandit propaganda.



> Another significant early act was the murder of Keshav Nath Pandit, who was the first Hindu killed in the violence inaugurated after July 1988. A follower of the Jamat-i-Islami of Indian-controlled Jammu and Kashmir, Constable Mohammed Yousuf, was on duty guarding a temple in Vicharnag. After a dispute, he dragged Mahant Keshav Nath Pandit out of the temple on the morning of December 9, 1988 and asked him to convert to Islam. When he refused, Yousuf kileld him by beating him with the butt of his gun.



Very righteous struggle indeed!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

bilalhaider said:


> The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir.
> 
> India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps there.



mostly paramilitary forces conducts operations inside territory..army is not for fighting inside


----------



## 53fd

KS said:


> And they are on the border on the LoC not in civvie areas.
> 
> Dont tell me now that the Iranian border is policed by the FC..



My point was making the distinction b/w the Kashmir & Balochistan situation which your fellow countryman failed to understand.


----------



## LaBong

Anyway Indian Army is there so that Pakistan Army doesn't do a misadventure yet again just as they did in 1948 and 65.


----------



## LaBong

bilalhaider said:


> My point was making the distinction b/w the Kashmir & Balochistan situation which your fellow countryman failed to understand.



Would you please scribe your point in short and coherent paragraph. So far you kept ranting about who falls under what jurisdiction, ignoring that it doesn't matter as long as you keep killing people and crushing indigenous struggle by brute force. 

Now when I pointed out India also have deployed what you call Paramilitary forces in Kashmir under Home ministries jurisdiction, you pretend as if your point has already been made!


----------



## MINK

*Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan*

*By Aleem Maqbool
BBC News, Muzaffarabad*

"There are different types of duties I can now be sent to do," says the man we have come to meet, but whose identity we have to conceal.

"I can be kept here in the reserves, be asked to recruit new members, or they can send me across into Indian-held Kashmir for jihad," he says.

Until the spring, this 25-year-old had been studying engineering; now he is a militant.

As he describes why he left his studies, he quotes from the Koran and repeats justifications for his choice, which have clearly been taught to him.

"While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group," he says.

"I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan.

"The Indians are killing our brothers and sisters. If everyone sits around doing nothing, who will bring liberation?

"God willing, our blood will bring change," the young man adds.

He tells me his family are happy about his choice, and that they will be proud if he becomes a martyr and goes to heaven.

But that turns out not to be the case. After much persuasion, he allows us to meet his mother.

*'Brainwashed'*

"Only over my dead body will my son go for jihad," she says.

She tells us that she thought her son was going for Koranic teaching but that she was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.

"I pray to God to keep him here and not let him go. I won't let him," she adds.

And the man's brother, we find, is furious.

"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him.

"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he says.

The implication being that it is the Pakistani state that is behind the radicalisation and preparation of his brother as a militant.

In 1947, India was partitioned. Muslim-majority Indian states formed the new nation of Pakistan. But in the hastiness of the split, the fate of Kashmir, whose population was more than three-quarters Muslim, was never fully resolved.

In the late 1940s, the United Nations had demanded that India allow a vote in Kashmir so people there could decide upon their future. India said it agreed, but the poll was never held.

The territory is now split between the two regional powers. They have fought wars for its overall control, but in the last 20 years, an insurgency has also taken root.

There was a time when it was an open secret that the Pakistani authorities were directly supporting militancy in Kashmir.

But now Pakistan claims those days are over.

"I assure you, as a state, as a government, there is no such policy of training Kashmiri militants to be sent across [to Indian-administered Kashmir]," Pakistan's Interior Minister, Rehman Malik, tells me.

He says that because of the monitoring of his government, militant groups have been brought under control, that they are no longer a threat to India, and that fighters cannot cross into the Indian-run side of Kashmir.

When I tell him about the militant we had met, and the organised training camp he had talked of, Mr Malik admitted there might be "some non-state groups" still operating.

*'Supporting militancy'*

But most people living in Pakistani-administered Kashmir will say the government is not telling the full story.

"The intelligence agencies in Pakistan are still fully supporting and financing militant groups here and the government is completely aware," says Zahid Habib Sheikh, from the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).

"They will tell you there are no training camps but, of course, there are. This has always been Pakistan's Kashmir strategy, but it is a selfish policy that has only damaged our cause," he adds.

*Mr Sheikh says he feels Pakistan is supporting militancy here not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.*

"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," he says.

The organisation he belongs to re-launched its "Quit Kashmir" campaign earlier this year. It calls for both India and Pakistan to end their involvement in the region.

In what is traditionally protest season in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, where all political groups hold rallies, the march by JKLF was one of the biggest in Muzaffarabad, blocking the centre of the city.

People across Pakistani-administered Kashmir are united in their anger over the recent deaths of over a hundred Kashmiris in the Indian-administered side, killed while protesting against Indian control.

Just as we are leaving Muzaffarabad, after the "Quit Kashmir" rally, we hear crowd noise coming from a marketplace.

There, in the middle of the day, stands a bearded man on a platform, surrounded by armed men in military-type fatigues.

Scores of people have gathered to listen to what he has to say, and respond to his slogans by chanting them back.

He is a senior militant leader, openly urging new recruits to step forward. Undoubtedly more of them will.

UPDATE: Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a statement after this article's publication saying "When his attention was drawn to a recent BBC report alleging existence of terrorist training camps in AJK [Azad Jammu and Kashmir], the [ministry] spokesman termed the report as baseless and malicious." 

BBC News - Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan


----------



## KS

Abir said:


> Would you please scribe your point in short and coherent paragraph. So far you kept ranting about who falls under what jurisdiction, ignoring that it doesn't matter as long as you keep killing people and crushing indigenous struggle by brute force.
> 
> Now when I pointed out India also have deployed what you call Paramilitary forces in Kashmir under Home ministries jurisdiction, you pretend as if your point has already been made!



Welcome to debating world of billo bhaiyya..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Fireurimagination

Let's see how many of 1,400,000,000+ Indians agree with Arundhati Roy?

1-2-3-4 Duh FAIL

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> LOL..Pakistan;s modus operandi on Kashmir is a lesson on how *NOT* to do things when you are going to stake claim on a territory.
> 
> when staking claim on Kashmir on the basis of population they for some reason accepted the accession of Hyderabad an Junagadh in which > 90% were Hindus. Mistake #1.
> 
> If decided to attack they should have attacked with full force and not sent in a raiding party..this gave the Majaraja time to ponder and accede to India..Mistake # 2.
> 
> Should not have trusted the Kashmiri Muslims fully with their plans..usually leads to disaster as in 1965 war....and should not have thought lightly of the enemy due to some theory of 1 Pak = 10 Hidus...Mistake # 3
> 
> Should not have unilaterally initiated operations on Western front knowing fully well they are going to be defeated..Mistake # 4
> 
> *While trying to capture Siachen should not have ordered arctic gear with the firm that supplies the Indian Army..Mistake # 5*
> 
> The thought that since russia could be defeated by jihad...so can be India...mistake # 6
> 
> I can go on...but this will give countries with future plans to claim territories on what not to do while doing so..


 
Mistake#5 is interesting.

What happened?


----------



## Tshering22

pritamkonar said:


> *Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan*



That is fine. If they stop, our forces will become rusty and out-of-practice. If only our troops could have more effective protective gear, I'd say bring it on more happily.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Some interesting mental gymnastics by the think tanks here.

One day the USA is all bad, the US people are sheeple, their democracy a sham, the 9/11 staged by the US establishment to keep the sheeple in check and to stop the progress of the goody goody two shoes China unkil.

On this thread, it becomes a "perfect democracy"!

After trying illegal terror and wars, causing ethnic cleansing by Islamic goons in Kashmir (as they had earlier done in Pakistan itself), they now want us to give up Kashmir due to our democracy! 

Not happening. Just come to terms with the reality.

*Kashmir nahi banega Pakistan.*

Not by terror, not by wars, not by pathetic logic of democracy and not due to *Indian business interests* (Yes some people even imagine this!).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## nForce

bilalhaider said:


> The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir.
> 
> India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps there.



But you see, kashmir is a frontier province,with history of war and insurgency.So,you tell me,is it unjustified for Army to be present there?


----------



## Tshering22

Vinod2070 said:


> After trying illegal terror and wars, causing ethnic cleansing by Islamic goons in Kashmir (as they had earlier done in Pakistan itself), they now want us to give up Kashmir due to our democracy!



US can wail and bawl all it wants; nothing is happening other than their weakening day by day. The more they indulge in useless wars like Libya and Iraq, the worse they are likely to get economically. Both wars were fought for oil and neither oil came nor money nor the precious soldiers they lost. OTOH, their economy got worse. 

I had to say this but the Kissinger brigade in USA is just undoing all the positive turn that US tried to make a couple of years ago. J&K will stay ours even if we have to fight nuclear war against anyone.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Fireurimagination

nForce said:


> But you see, kashmir is a frontier province,with history of war and insurgency.So,you tell me,is it unjustified for Army to be present there?



Also army is present in other states as well that share a border with other countries


----------



## nForce

Fireurimagination said:


> Also army is present in other states as well that share a border with other countries



exactly the point I am trying to make.


----------



## KS

Vinod2070 said:


> Mistake#5 is interesting.
> 
> What happened?


 
Its a comedy of errors 

Follow this Link

And also read about Subedar Major Bana Singh whose PVC winning heroic feat caused a peak (which he won from the Pakistanis in hand to hand conflict) to be renamed "Bana post".

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

KS said:


> Its a comedy of errors
> 
> Follow this Link



From your link:



> "It's costing them far more than us," says Iqbal. "We can deliver our men and supplies to the front line using roads, while the Indians have to bring in everything using helicopters and snowmobiles." Islamabad political analyst Hussain calculates that it costs the Indians $438 million a year to fight for Siachen (Indian officials claim it is less than $300 million), while Pakistan's bill is estimated at $182 million.



Read more: Cover Story: War at the top of the World - TIME

Always interesting, this willingness to cut their nose to spite the face. Always thinking zero sum.

Hope things will change and the military starts serving the country rather than the other way round.


----------



## StandForInsaf

well said Arundhati India should end its barbaric occupation.


----------



## majesticpankaj

StandForInsaf said:


> well said Arundhati India should end its barbaric occupation.



I don't think India will -- Now it is the duty of international community especially Pakistan to stand and deliver. War is looking more and more imminent .


----------



## SpArK

well said arundhati.. you should go to a barber.


----------



## StandForInsaf

majesticpankaj said:


> I don't think India will -- Now it is the duty of international community especially Pakistan to stand and deliver. War is looking more and more imminent .



whatever, Kashmiris will kick india out.


----------



## majesticpankaj

StandForInsaf said:


> whatever, Kashmiris will kick india out.



surely


----------



## SpArK

StandForInsaf said:


> whatever, Kashmiris will kick india out.


----------



## KS

For God sake people please dont post AR's picture....never....


----------



## SpArK

KS said:


> For God sake people please dont post AR's picture....never....






SORRY again.


----------



## StandForInsaf

SpArK said:


>



dil pay mat lay yar marjain ga.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SpArK

StandForInsaf said:


> dil pay mat lay yar marjain ga.



No yaar.. its just funny for us.. we are just loving it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IndianArmy

Well I have an Autobiography of hers to tell. She started her Anti-India career dated 1999 after India's nuclear weaponization. The Heartbeat followed with criticism's in public media but she chose her path steady and still, that even parliament attacks prompted her to speak in support of it. And she branched out to Israel and Sri lanka criticizing both the govts, when the result of it was not even a fly lending its ears she narrowed in to only India and started supporting Maoists and Incidents like 26/11 and even Anna Hazare was not left alone..

And like an ending to humble fairy tale, She lives ever so happily even after speaking almost everything which even cannot be expected out of our worst enemies... Some times being in a democratic country feels worse than a military dictatorship.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Skull and Bones

SpArK said:


> No yaar.. its just funny for us.. we are just loving it.


----------



## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> Well I have an Autobiography of hers to tell. She started her Anti-India career dated 1999 after India's nuclear weaponization. The Heartbeat followed with criticism's in public media but she chose her path steady and still, that even parliament attacks prompted her to speak in support of it. And she branched out to Israel and Sri lanka criticizing both the govts, when the result of it was not even a fly lending its ears she narrowed in to only India and started supporting Maoists and Incidents like 26/11 and even Anna Hazare was not left alone..
> 
> And like an ending to humble fairy tale, She lives ever so happily even after speaking almost everything which even cannot be expected out of our worst enemies... Some times being in a democratic country feels worse than a military dictatorship.



Reminds me of this old cartoon.






Btwn.. sirjii there is an imposter with ur screen name here..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## StandForInsaf

Jai ho Arundhati mata ke .She speaks for truth.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## IndianArmy

SpArK said:


> Btwn.. sirjii there is an imposter with ur screen name here..



Well I am too old to be challenged... An Imposter. Will He has a Space in between his First and Last name...No one can fill the Gap Except for me. Thanks to some coding done somewhere stopping this from happening.


----------



## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> Well I am too old to be challenged... An Imposter. Will He has a Space in between his First and Last name...No one can fill the Gap Except for me. Thanks to some coding done somewhere stopping this from happening.



yes there is a space between .. but seems a nice guy.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/134561indian-army.html


----------



## IndianArmy

SpArK said:


> yes there is a space between .. but seems a nice guy.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/134561indian-army.html



As Long as I am not held responsible for his endeavors.


----------



## matrix_neo

[/IMG]

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Don Jaguar

KS said:


> For God sake people please dont post AR's picture....never....


----------



## Secur

matrix_neo said:


> [/IMG]


 Good brownie point scoring ... But it wasn't even India then


----------



## Heinz89

Don't u people have enough land already.. for govern.. why going for more... Let the beautiful mountains stay as they are..


----------



## Paan Singh

Secur said:


> Good brownie point scoring ... But it wasn't even India then



it was bharat or akhand bharat


----------



## Secur

Prism said:


> it was bharat or akhand bharat


 Maybe the Indian subcontinent is a better word ... Akhand Bharat ceased to exist thousands of year ago ... Wake up and smell the coffee

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Guli Danda

She's a ******...publicity hungry


----------



## Guli Danda

There can be a great solution to this..Pakistan wants it?It can come and take it..the winner takes it all and the looser takes the ball


----------



## Paan Singh

Secur said:


> Maybe the Indian subcontinent is a better word ... Akhand Bharat ceased to exist thousands of year ago ... Wake up and smell the coffee




thks ..for.*indian subcontinent*


----------



## lem34

Secur said:


> Maybe the Indian subcontinent is a better word ... Akhand Bharat ceased to exist thousands of year ago ... Wake up and smell the coffee



it never existed most indians i come accross are incredibly ignorant about their history and even their religion

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Heinz89

Aryan_B said:


> it never existed most indians i come accross are incredibly ignorant about their history and even their religion


 So are you not Ignorant about your religion and history.. are u not a part of India before the separation???


----------



## Guli Danda

Aryan_B said:


> it never existed most indians i come accross are incredibly ignorant about their history and even their religion


 Hinduism is the only religion for which no date of origin is known..the father of surgery and the first major operation in the history of human civilization was carried out by Sushruta and mentioned in the Vedas.
You seriously live in a delusion about Hinduism and certainly India.


----------



## Paan Singh

Aryan_B said:


> it never existed most indians i come accross are incredibly ignorant about their history and even their religion



Greater India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Vinod2070

We think the same about converts.


----------



## Guli Danda

Arundhati says Kashmir should be separated Pakistanis say the same..Syed Geelani says the same...
Result:We know!


----------



## Secur

Guli Danda said:


> Hinduism is the only religion for which no date of origin is known..the father of surgery and the first major operation in the history of human civilization was carried out by Sushruta and mentioned in the Vedas.
> You seriously live in a delusion about Hinduism and certainly India.


 Did you see anyone mention anything about Hinduism ?


----------



## Heinz89

Guli Danda said:


> Hinduism is the only religion for which no date of origin is known..the father of surgery and the first major operation in the history of human civilization was carried out by Sushruta and mentioned in the Vedas.
> You seriously live in a delusion about Hinduism and certainly India.


 It dosen't mean that performing surgery make Hinduism the perfect religion.. don't u know that India had more than 1000 sects who searched for the meaning of life around the time of the Siddhartha the Buddha...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Guli Danda

Secur said:


> Did you see anyone mention anything about Hinduism ?


You do know what he meant here:-



Aryan_B said:


> it never existed most indians i come accross are incredibly ignorant about their history and even their religion


----------



## Heinz89

Ok guyz back to the topic.. back to the topic


----------



## Secur

Prism said:


> Greater India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 *Greater India (also referred as the Indosphere) is a term that refers to the historical spread of the culture of India beyond the Indian subcontinent.
*

And ?


----------



## Guli Danda

Heinz89 said:


> It dosen't mean that performing surgery make Hinduism the perfect religion.. don't u know that India had more than 1000 sects who searched for the meaning of life around the time of the Siddhartha the Buddha...


Hinduism has its share of faults Gautam Buddh,was a Shakya and Buddhism came into existence way way after Hinduism.


----------



## nomi007

Prism said:


> take her ..i hope when she will praise ttp and al qaeda..then u will get lessons


you take her and she is enjoying bal tharkure and other Hindus extremist but you must leave the kashmir


----------



## Heinz89

Guli Danda said:


> Hinduism has its share of faults Gautam Buddh,was a Shakya and Buddhism came into existence way way after Hinduism.


 Shakyas aren't hindu!! how you gonna say they are Hindus??


----------



## nomi007

Pakistanism


----------



## StandForInsaf

Guli Danda said:


> Hinduism has its share of faults Gautam Buddh,was a Shakya and Buddhism came into existence way way after Hinduism.



one question if you dont mind can i ask ?


----------



## Guli Danda

Heinz89 said:


> Shakyas aren't hindu!! how you gonna say they are Hindus??


Full detail...they aren't Hindus but there existed a connection between them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya


----------



## Heinz89

Guli Danda said:


> Full detail...they aren't Hindus but there existed a connection between them
> Shakya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 Having a connection doesn't mean anything


----------



## lem34

Prism said:


> Greater India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Oh so thats where you get your history lessons from,

India was not under the control of one person as a Akhand Bharat ideology and several rulers were ruling different states and all the Rajas or the Emperors were fighting with each other for the expansion of their territory and this division itself portrays the false claims of Akhand Bharat. Even the Muslims could never say Akhand Muslim kind of word as they were also divided among themselves in the name of Sassanid Empire, Khilji, Mughals, Mysore, Hyderebad Daccan, Rajputs and not to forget the Sikh Empire that was established before the British Raj. 

Several different smaller kingdoms were different countries in itself just like todays Pakistan and India and there was never a moment when an Emperor could keep a major control of Indian subcontinent under his Kingdom and we also must not forget these are only Kingdoms but during this period of thousands of years Indian subcontinent was further divided into different religions, languages, cultures, traditions, moral values, interests and so on. The list is never ending. Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together


----------



## Vinod2070

Aryan_B said:


> Oh so thats where you get your history lessons from,
> 
> India was not under the control of one person as a Akhand Bharat ideology and several rulers were ruling different states and all the Rajas or the Emperors were fighting with each other for the expansion of their territory and this division itself portrays the false claims of Akhand Bharat. Even the Muslims could never say Akhand Muslim kind of word as they were also divided among themselves in the name of Sassanid Empire, Khilji, Mughals, Mysore, Hyderebad Daccan, Rajputs and not to forget the Sikh Empire that was established before the British Raj.
> 
> Several different smaller kingdoms were different countries in itself just like todays Pakistan and India and there was never a moment when an Emperor could keep a major control of Indian subcontinent under his Kingdom and we also must not forget these are only Kingdoms but during this period of thousands of years Indian subcontinent was further divided into different religions, languages, cultures, traditions, moral values, interests and so on. The list is never ending. *Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together*



Your post shows the inherent flaw of the two nation theory.

It was never about a separate homeland for the Muslims. It was always about hatred, sheer hatred.

The rage of the convert. The need to be accepted as an equal of those that converted you.

How do you achieve that, by digging dirt on your past, your ancestors, your identity.

Calling it Jahiliyah, calling your ancestors as jahils and trying to embrace the history of the invaders.

Guess what, it earns you only contempt. From your invaders and from those that didn't surrender their faith in the face of that tyranny.

All you have left is this impotent rage.

And a burning hate.

Its not a hate for us or for India.

It is a hate for yourself. That's why it is unquenchable.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

I said

Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together

because I want people in the neighbourhood including india to live happy peacefull lives. Some indians like Ms Roy clearly agreee with the many indian nation theory


----------



## Vinod2070

Aryan_B said:


> I said
> 
> Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together
> 
> because I want people in the neighbourhood including india to live happy peacefull lives. Some indians like Ms Roy clearly agreee with the many indian nation theory


 
*Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together*

Shows it all, doesn't it.

Some people say the same about Islam and Muslims. Not too much bloodshed, just get rid of it. Do you agree that is the way to stop Islamic terror?

The hatred is a self-hatred. The impotent rage of the convert.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## harshad

Aryan_B said:


> I said
> 
> Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together
> 
> because I want people in the neighbourhood including india to live happy peacefull lives. Some indians like Ms Roy clearly agreee with the many indian nation theory



the 30 or so small countries you are talking about decided to form a union before 1947 which is now called india
you are overestimating your military abilities,it couldent even win or have a bigger advantage over india in any war
we are more than happy with your jelousy

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## StandForInsaf

Vinod2070 said:


> Your post shows the inherent flaw of the two nation theory.
> 
> It was never about a separate homeland for the Muslims. It was always about hatred, sheer hatred.
> 
> The rage of the convert. The need to be accepted as an equal of those that converted you.
> 
> How do you achieve that, by digging dirt on your past, your ancestors, your identity.
> 
> Calling it Jahiliyah, calling your ancestors as jahils and trying to embrace the history of the invaders.
> 
> Guess what, it earns you only contempt. From your invaders and from those that didn't surrender their faith in the face of that tyranny.
> 
> All you have left is this impotent rage.
> 
> And a burning hate.
> 
> Its not a hate for us or for India.
> 
> It is a hate for yourself. That's why it is unquenchable.






> It was never about a separate homeland for the Muslims


every one has right to live according to their own will , if ppl of pakistan want to live in their own separate homeland they have full right to do so , you should have no problem , you should have accepted it gracefully , like we accepted *Bangladesh *as our beloved brother.



> rage of the convert


this is madness i see most of your quotes include similar hatred sentences , every one his right to choose right theory / religion for him , you are no one to question on it you must shut-up



> Calling it Jahiliyah, calling your ancestors as jahils and trying to embrace the history of the invaders.


this is just your stupid thought we never say our ancestors jahils , you close minded zombie..



> hate for yourself



we don't hate any one we love every one , some right wing retardos like you do this...

*This thread is about "Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir " do not de-rail it.*


----------



## Heinz89

harshad said:


> the 30 or so small countries you are talking about decided to form a union before 1947 which is now called india
> you are overestimating your military abilities,it couldent even win or have a bigger advantage over india in any war
> we are more than happy with your jelousy



Yeah... thumbs up for Indian leaders who tried so hard to keep it together,.....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## alphamale

*Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian &#8216;occupation&#8217; of Kashmir .*

indians don't give a damn abt ur opinion mam, now go prepare ur next statement under the shield of great Indian democracy which allows u to do so.


----------



## lem34

Heinz89 said:


> Yeah... thumbs up for Indian leaders who tried so hard to keep it together,.....



and like modi committed crimes to keep it together. but as ms roy points out you cant kill people to make them live with you some day all indians will learn this


----------



## harshad

Aryan_B said:


> and like modi committed crimes to keep it together. but as ms roy points out you cant kill people to make them live with you some day all indians will learn this



really did modi commit crime to keep india together,did someone hit on you head
how can a riot keep a country together,your logic fails

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## regular

So we realli got some human journalist/political activists who is supporting the rightful cause for the poor Kashmiri pplz....Excellent Arundhati Roy...we support ure rightful humanitarian struggle for the innocent Kashmiri pplz in Indian occupied lands.Hope that Kashmiri pplz get their freedom of rights granted and liberation for the brutal occupation......


----------



## Stumper

IndianArmy said:


> Well I have an Autobiography of hers to tell. She started her Anti-India career dated 1999 after India's nuclear weaponization. The Heartbeat followed with criticism's in public media but she chose her path steady and still, that even parliament attacks prompted her to speak in support of it. And she branched out to Israel and Sri lanka criticizing both the govts, when the result of it was not even a fly lending its ears she narrowed in to only India and started supporting Maoists and Incidents like 26/11 and even Anna Hazare was not left alone..
> 
> And like an ending to humble fairy tale, She lives ever so happily even after speaking almost everything which even cannot be expected out of our worst enemies... Some times being in a democratic country feels worse than a military dictatorship.


 
Well, no matter what, she has a right to speak, even if its something we do not wish to hear. Do you see any other democratic & civil liberties activists bold enough to fight for the fallen?

The reason i responded to your post, is that your autobiography skipped her fight for rights of Naxals, adivasi's of Kerala, etc.

As of now, she just is a lady, wanting to be called a "Rebel", who is slowly loosing her supporters (like me) when she refused "Sahitya Akademy" citing Indian Government as being a US puppet!!


----------



## alphamale

regular said:


> So we realli got some human journalist/political activists who is supporting the rightful cause for the poor Kashmiri pplz....Excellent Arundhati Roy...we *support* ure rightful humanitarian struggle for the innocent Kashmiri pplz in Indian occupied lands.*Hope* that Kashmiri pplz get their freedom of rights granted and liberation for the brutal occupation......



endless times we've heard these words before. now we are very much familiar with these words.


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> I said
> 
> Thats why I think perhaps all neighbours should invade and dismember india it wouldnt take china and pakistan alone more than a week or so to achieve this relativly quickly without too much bloodshed into maybe 30 or so countries. You cant force people to live together
> 
> because I want people in the neighbourhood including india to live happy peacefull lives. Some indians like Ms Roy clearly agreee with the many indian nation theory


 

In the words of George W. Bush - *Bring It On !* Even better if you volunteer to lead the armies yourself. We will organise the proper Mehman Nawazi for you & your army!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Stumper

Aryan_B said:


> but as ms roy points out you cant kill people to make them live with you some day all indians will learn this


Mate, A suggestion, you do not know or understand what Ms.Roy stands for, simply because she herself does not know. She is a known Anti Democratic activist. She has called Naxals as "Gandhi With Guns".


----------



## Vinod2070

Bang Galore said:


> In the words of George W. Bush - *Bring It On !* Even better if you volunteer to lead the armies yourself. We will organise the proper Mehman Nawazi for you & your army!



The last time we had 90000 POWs on our hands. And they did a shoddy job on the Delhi Meerut road.

This time we have the Golden quadrilateral in the works. We can use some.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Polemos

Seems like Arundhati has found her soulmate- Pankaj Mishra. After marriage she should emigrate to UK and pander her nonsense to the Guardian newspaper.


----------



## STEELMAN

READY TO EXCHANGE HER WITH VINA MALIK ALSO.


----------



## divya

PakShah said:


> Thats what you think. Wake up! This is 2011, not 1962 where the Indian government can perpetually lie to the Indian masses.
> 
> *Arundhati Roy is a true INDIAN PATRIOT. *Shes knows the truth.
> 
> She knows Pakistan, China, and Nepal will never give up, because they have the moral argument and upper hand.
> 
> 
> India has no arguments to support her stand.
> 
> India is the odd man of Asia. It is without surprise SCO hasn't reached it's full potential yet.




Have you considered Indians if they consider her even a patriot... or Pakistanis have become official spoke person for who is a true patriot or not. Please keep it upto who is a muslim and who is not stop decieding the truthfulness of Indians.


----------



## WAQAS119

*Salute to Arundati Roy yet again for speaking truth and taking risk for the sake of lives of innocent Kashmiris.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## divya

WAQAS119 said:


> *Salute to Arundati Roy yet again for speaking truth and taking risk for the sake of lives of innocent Kashmiris.*




*And we are ready to salute the one man who is ready to make this risk into reality....*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Don Jaguar

WAQAS119 said:


> *Salute to Arundati Roy yet again for speaking truth and taking risk for the sake of lives of innocent Kashmiris.*



Dukhti rug pe hath rakh dia aap ne.


----------



## divya

Don Jaguar said:


> Dukhti rug pe hath rakh dia aap ne.




kya dukhti rag kahawat hai

hathi chale bazar kutte bhokhe hazaar

At least we allowed her to speak up. if she was to be in china she would be locked up and keys thrown away. in middle east she would be stoned to death. in pakistan by now she would be blasted in quest for some virgins by a mullah. in US she would be in Guantanamo bay. In the end it gives the feel how great my nation is.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WAQAS119

divya said:


> *And we are ready to salute the one man who is ready to make this risk into reality....*



Time will defiantly award Kashmir a man like Quaid-e-Azam JINNAH to free Kashmir out of Indian Occupation like what JINNAH did with British Occupation, and that will be a reality.


----------



## BJP*

how old is arundhati??
I waiting when would she die!!


----------



## Paan Singh

WAQAS119 said:


> Time will defiantly award Kashmir a man like Quaid-e-Azam JINNAH to free Kashmir out of Indian Occupation like what JINNAH did with British Occupation, and that will be a reality.



and same jinnah said later on that pakistan is his biggest mistake

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Don Jaguar

divya said:


> kya dukhti rag kahawat hai
> 
> hathi chale bazar kutte bhokhe hazaar



Kion baan honay wali harkatein ker rahi ho.


----------



## divya

WAQAS119 said:


> Time will defiantly award Kashmir a man like Quaid-e-Azam JINNAH to free Kashmir out of Indian Occupation like what JINNAH did with British Occupation, and that will be a reality.



time is telling for past 64 years to not to phuck with Kashmir but then their are some people who are very dheet and continuouslystrive for something which is root cause of all their problems down the line ....  i think the time and god both changed sides to the infidel side.


----------



## Don Jaguar

Prism said:


> and same jinnah said later on that pakistan is his biggest mistake



He never said like this.


----------



## divya

Don Jaguar said:


> Kion baan honay wali harkatein ker rahi ho.



kahawat hai ya kahawat forum rules k against hai... nahi pasand to ignore kar do...


----------



## WAQAS119

divya said:


> time is telling for past 64 years to not to phuck with Kashmir but then their are some people who are very dheet and continuouslystrive for something which is root cause of all their problems down the line ....  i think the time and god both changed sides to the infidel side.



You keep brushing the issue under the carpet and using words like "dheet' etc and people like Arundati Roy will keep saying truth until truth prevails and believe me, truth do prevail ultimatly, it may take sometime.


----------



## divya

WAQAS119 said:


> You keep brushing the issue under the carpet and using words like "dheet' etc and people like Arundati Roy will keep saying truth until truth prevails and believe me, truth do prevail ultimatly, it may take sometime.




well other 1.25 billion Indians say otherwise.... its upto your ears that you can only hear the music that suits you.


----------



## Don Jaguar

divya said:


> kahawat hai ya kahawat forum rules k against hai... nahi pasand to ignore kar do...



Mein ne ignore ker dia isi liay post report nahi ki, ab dekho moderators kia kertay hain.


----------



## WAQAS119

divya said:


> well other 1.25 billion Indians say otherwise.... its upto your ears that you can only hear the music that suits you.



If Indians are not allowed to hear truth than this is a serious problem. But world listens to truth clearly.

WikiLeaks cables: India accused of systematic use of torture in Kashmir | World news | The Guardian

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## divya

WAQAS119 said:


> If Indians are not allowed to hear truth than this is a serious problem. But world listens truth clearly.
> 
> WikiLeaks cables: India accused of systematic use of torture in Kashmir | World news | The Guardian




Stop sending your holymen and godmen to India and all will be fine in Kashmir.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WAQAS119

divya said:


> Stop sending your holymen and godmen to India and all will be fine in Kashmir.



All those innocent mothers and sisters who randomly get rapped by Indian Army personnel are sent by Pakistan to cause trouble?
My hands are shaking typing this post and my heart is crying for them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Don Jaguar

divya said:


> Stop sending your holymen and godmen to India and all will be fine in Kashmir.



We sent all these?


----------



## divya

WAQAS119 said:


> All those innocent mothers and sisters who randomly get rapped by Indian Army personnel are sent by Pakistan to cause trouble?
> My hands are shaking typing this post and my heart is crying for them.




there are not always saints in all the armies. kashmir is still saner in comparison to the heroes of yours of the past whose armies were just the army of rapists and plunderers. Indian army is saint in front of them. 

Secondly with no international media present in kashmir it is we indians only who bring out this picture and process the accused. Cases are filed by the Indians when they can just let it go. It is just in India that leaders are allowed to speak anti India in heartland of India.


----------



## WAQAS119

divya said:


> there are not always saints in all the armies. kashmir is still saner in comparison to the heroes of yours of the past whose armies were just the army of rapists and plunderers. Indian army is saint in front of them.



So you are justifying rapes, massacre, kidnappings etc by Indian Army because someone else is/was doing that.



> Secondly with no international media present in kashmir it is we indians only who bring out this picture and process the accused. Cases are filed by the Indians when they can just let it go. It is just in India that leaders are allowed to speak anti India in heartland of India.



If this is that a clear process than what is the reason behind stopping media to access and report true stories of atrocities of Indian Army. Making fool of the world?


----------



## xTra

WAQAS119 said:


> So you are justifying rapes, massacre, kidnappings etc by Indian Army because someone else is/was doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is that a clear process than what is the reason behind stopping media to access and report true stories of atrocities of Indian Army. Making fool of the world?



Stop sending militants, I don't see any need for Army their.


----------



## StandForInsaf

divya said:


> there are not *always saints* in all the armies. kashmir is still saner in comparison to the heroes of yours of the past whose armies were just the army of rapists and plunderers. Indian army is saint in front of them.
> 
> Secondly with no international media present in kashmir it is we indians only who bring out this picture and process the accused. Cases are filed by the Indians when they can just let it go. It is just in India that leaders are allowed to speak anti India in heartland of India.



look who is defending rapes a bhariti nari  ... what a shame....


----------



## Tshering22

StandForInsaf said:


> look who is defending rapes a bhariti nari  ... what a shame....



Because rapes are done by LET and other lunatics and the families are threatened to blame the army. The point is, you will continue to support militancy against us; but once this government falls in Delhi and stronger leaders come, you're in for a good payback. Wait for it.


----------



## lem34

Ms Roy is a true incredible indian patriot. we ned more indians like her to speak up against the injustices of non secular indian govt

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## nForce

Aryan_B said:


> Ms Roy is a true incredible indian patriot. we ned more indians like her to speak up against the injustices of non secular indian govt



Chill.. at the end of the day..Kashmir is not going anywhere...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

nForce said:


> Chill.. at the end of the day..Kashmir is not going anywhere...



tell that to the kashmiris. Eventually all indians with elimination of ignorance and Illiteracy will come to the incredible realisation that forcing minorities to live in a way they dont want will not work

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

Aryan_B said:


> tell that to the kashmiris. Eventually all indians with elimination of ignorance and Illiteracy will come to the incredible realisation that forcing minorities to live in a way they dont want will not work



we are not forcing..those stooges can go where ever they want..and it will work..


----------



## Hulk

Who cares what she says, she is just attention seeking socialist who none cares about.


----------



## xTra

Aryan_B said:


> tell that to the kashmiris. Eventually all indians with elimination of ignorance and Illiteracy will come to the incredible realisation that forcing minorities to live in a way they dont want will not work



Why not to scrap Artcle 370, are Kashmiris landed from moon, fcking Indian politics, this is where I feel we must be ruled by some sycho General.


----------



## xTra

I have nothing to say abt Roy, its simple if i say I like Mahatma gandhi, no body will care, but if I say I hate MHATHMA Gandhi , I would be on National TV, somebody can go very low for publicity, Mrs Roy is one of hem.


----------



## nForce

Aryan_B said:


> tell that to the kashmiris. Eventually all indians with elimination of ignorance and Illiteracy will come to the incredible realisation that forcing minorities to live in a way they dont want will not work



I dont understand why people start acting like a wannabe Nostradamus and start giving wild predictions when they have no argument left..

Dont you people ever learn anything from history? Oh well, Pakistani history is full repetitive historical mistakes.

Okay,let me break this down for you.
Back in 1948,some brilliant guy came up with a brilliant plan of winning over Kashmir by force.The entire plan was based upon the idea that when the tribals attack the local Kashmiris will revolt.The locals did not revolt,but did exactly opposite,they held the tribals until the Indian army came to rescue.
Back in 1965,some other super brilliant general plans to take over Kashmir banking upon the very same idea,that they will attack and local Kashmiris will join the party.Nothing like that happened.The locals informed the army about incursions and the army took prompt action.Pakistan could not achieve their objective.
In the 1980s someone again comes up with the idea of pseudo war with India by pumping in insurgents.It is the same JKLI,formed from local Kashmiris and the local Police who did the job of clean-up the most.
Again in 1999,some one proves himself to be foolish enough to walk on the same failed path as in 1965,yet again thinking that local Kashmiris will support the invasion.This time the it was the very same local Kashmiri shepherds who alerted the army about enemy activities...

Now tell me,dont you people ever learn from your mistakes????


----------



## StandForInsaf

Tshering22 said:


> Because rapes are done by LET and other lunatics and the families are threatened to blame the army. The point is, you will continue to support militancy against us; but once this government falls in Delhi and stronger leaders come, you're in for a good payback. Wait for it.



WoW , worrier you haven't read previous chat carefully ?


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> tell that to the kashmiris. Eventually all indians with elimination of ignorance and Illiteracy will come to the incredible realisation that forcing minorities to live in a way they dont want will not work



Ms Roy is one of the first, in due course all indians will realise that she is an incredible wise indian patriot

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

nForce said:


> Chill.. at the end of the day..Kashmir is not going anywhere...



neither is pakistan. But according to wise and incredible indian ms roy kashmiris may want some say in their future

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RockyX

Aryan_B said:


> Ms Roy is one of the first, in due course all indians will realise that she is an incredible wise indian patriot



I will prefer people like Nazam Sethi than roy.

If you are interested in Kashmir then attack India and take it. Simple


----------



## lem34

RockyX said:


> I will prefer people like Nazam Sethi than roy.
> 
> If you are interested in Kashmir then attack India and take it. Simple



dont need to it will happen in due course all indians will get educated and not tryforce people to live withthem. You know Indians like Ms Roy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

Aryan_B said:


> Ms Roy is a true incredible indian patriot. we ned more indians like her to speak up against the injustices of non secular indian govt



So sensitive about Indians? are you just 'enjoying' these conversations?


----------



## nForce

Aryan_B said:


> dont need to it will happen in due course all indians will get educated and not tryforce people to live withthem. You know Indians like Ms Roy



I know another Ms Roy.. lol she is my mom..yeah my title is Roy as well.. what a coincidence

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Indians need to appreciatee true patriots like Ms Roy and example to all indians

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------




nForce said:


> I know another Ms Roy.. lol she is my mom..yeah my title is Roy as well.. what a coincidence



give her our regards and tell her she has a great woman with her name

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## nForce

Aryan_B said:


> Indians need to appreciatee true patriots like Ms Roy and example to all indians
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> give her our regards and tell her she has a great woman with her name



chill man.. at the end of the day.. she is just someone who is making a show of moving against the tide to make a lot of clutter that will get some attention towards her,an attention seeker,out and out.

Something sort of what the Pakistanis say about Veena Malik,does make little difference anyhow.

---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------




Aryan_B said:


> give her our regards and tell her she has a great woman with her name



Its not a name,its a surname.. anyways,I will give her your regards


----------



## Paan Singh

Aryan_B said:


> Indians need to appreciatee true patriots like Ms Roy and example to all indians
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> give her our regards and tell her she has a great woman with her name



ida shonk hai te apne ghar lai ja us nu


----------



## lem34

Prism said:


> ida shonk hai te apne ghar lai ja us nu



hey you not gonna be popular wwith Mrs B


----------



## SpArK

Aryan_B said:


> hey you not gonna be popular wwith Mrs B


----------



## lem34

SpArK said:


>




you are ssoooo clever

Back to topic Ms Roys views are appreciated she is incredibly wise


----------



## SpArK




----------



## nForce

Aryan_B said:


> you are ssoooo clever
> 
> Back to topic Ms Roys views are appreciated she is incredibly wise



I know she is incredibly wise..my mom afterall


----------



## SpArK

Aryan_B said:


> you are ssoooo clever
> 
> Back to topic Ms Roys views are appreciated she is incredibly wise



ok tell me whats so clever in it?


----------



## lem34

SpArK said:


> ok tell me whats so clever in it?



sorry mate missed your point didnt realise who he was?


----------



## KS

Aryan_B said:


> neither is pakistan. But according to wise and incredible indian ms roy kashmiris may want some say in their future



So is India....so status quo prevails


----------



## KS

StandForInsaf said:


> every one has right to live according to their own will , if ppl of pakistan want to live in their own separate homeland they have full right to do so , you should have no problem , you should have accepted it gracefully , like we accepted *Bangladesh *as our beloved brother.



That is news to me !

Pakistan 'gracefully' accepted Bangladesh ? Oh my, then what was 1971 war for ?



Stumper said:


> Mate, A suggestion, you do not know or understand what Ms.Roy stands for, *simply because she herself does not know.* She is a known Anti Democratic activist. She has called Naxals as "Gandhi With Guns".


 
Epic.


----------



## lem34

Ms Roy is correct please end occupation of kashmir listen to wise indians like Ms Roy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## KS

Pakistanis should listen to wise patriots like dr.Pervez Hoodboy and get rid of their nukes and listen Dr.Najam Sethi and get rid of Balochistan.

Lets listen to wise patriots on both sides.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

KS said:


> Pakistanis should listen to wise patriots like dr.Pervez Hoodboy and get rid of their nukes and listen Dr.Najam Sethi and get rid of Balochistan.
> 
> Lets listen to wise patriots on both sides.



Lol.. none of them say anything like tht.

U MAD BRAH!


----------



## Developereo

nForce said:


> I know another Ms Roy.. lol she is my mom..yeah my title is Roy as well.. what a coincidence



Arundhati Jr. , get off the computer and come to dinner at once!


----------



## KS

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol.. none of them say anything like tht.
> 
> U MAD BRAH!



Hey bud, I can say the same about Pakistanis jumping about Kashmir.

DEAL WITH IT !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

hats off to the brave women , im sure India has more of them.


----------



## Arsalan

i wonder what happened to worlds largest Democracy 
i remember someone saying they give complete freedom of speech, what worng now??


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> Would you please scribe your point in short and coherent paragraph. So far you kept ranting about who falls under what jurisdiction, ignoring that it doesn't matter as long as you keep killing people and crushing indigenous struggle by brute force.
> 
> Now when I pointed out India also have deployed what you call Paramilitary forces in Kashmir under Home ministries jurisdiction, you pretend as if your point has already been made!



You fail to understand the difference between regular security personnel & military security personnel, who fall under different jurisdictions, & have completely different capabilities & roles/tasks. You're one stubborn kid. The argument made earlier by your fellow Indians was that where an *Army/military* (not Armed personnel FFS) is involved where the people want secession, there is trouble. According to your logic, the CRPF & the BSF deployed would fall under the same category as well.


----------



## Dalai Lama

Arundathi Roy - Brave Woman.


----------



## LaBong

"you are one stubborn kid"

Sweet! I was told same line by my lady superviser once!  

Not that I'm hinting any similarity!


----------



## gubbi

Aeronaut said:


> hats off to the brave women , im sure India has more of them.


Unfortunately for you, NO. She's the only one with insanity of that caliber! Want her? Take her!

---------- Post added at 08:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 AM ----------




arsalanaslam123 said:


> i wonder what happened to worlds largest Democracy
> i remember someone saying they give complete freedom of speech, what worng now??


The fact that your beloved Ms Roy's still free to make such stupid statements says about Indian democracy. Its not like someone's shooting her or calling for her beheading or even issuing fatwas, no?


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> "you are one stubborn kid"
> 
> Sweet! I was told same line by my lady superviser once!
> 
> Not that I'm hinting any similarity!



Yeah, she's supervising you


----------



## LaBong

^That's what a team lead supposed to do, get a job, you'd understand!


----------



## 53fd

Abir said:


> ^That's what a team lead supposed to do, get a job, you'd understand!



Yes, I understand you need supervision.


----------



## LaBong

^More so when the supervisor is lady, anyways back to topic. Arundhati and her brave deeds.


----------

