# C for CPEC, Callousness and Controversy



## Icarus

_*CPEC and some politicians with new found voices have become a regular feature on national television, the opposing view has not been effectively conveyed by neither the government nor the media. All that's come out against this skullduggery is this one blog entry, about a rational reality that more people need to see for themselves. *_

The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, also known as CPEC consists of a proposed plan to establish a network of roads and rail link from the Pakistani deep sea port of Gwadar to the Kashgar Special Economic Zone and then deeper into China. The plan is intended to stimulate growth in other sectors as well and a set of gas/oil pipelines in addition to several industrial zones are set to be built around the CPEC serving as a nucleus.

Back in 2015 when China announced $ 46 Billion dollars in investment to make the CPEC a reality, it was touted throughout the political and social circles of Pakistan as the country’s big break, the game changer, the project that would rewrite Pakistan’s fortunes and transform it into the central hub of trade in the South and Central Asian region.

Only a few months in and far from completion, the project has already fallen victim to political controversy and questions are being raised about the possibility of its completion as the rhetoric around it has started to look eerily familiar to the typical arguments raised in opposition to the Kalabagh dam.







Parochial politicians have taken to the airwaves to voice their dissent over the project, citing changes to the plan to favour the Punjab province and unfortunately, their ill-informed and factually erroneous views have managed to garner a sizable following in the last few weeks.

Firstly, the politician in question have raised concerns about the ‘route’ that the CPEC is supposed to take, speaking of it as if it were a single road whereas it is far from being as such. The CPEC is intended to be a complete network of roads and railways that is supposed to connect and link up with existing facilities to serve as a web of transport infrastructure that permeates the important trade and industrial centres in the country.

Secondly, there have been claims that the eastern route running through Sindh and Punjab does not ‘make sense’ because it is longer. The eastern route is not intended to be a quick commute from point A to be point B, rather it is intended to allow access to large domestic consumptions markets such as the cities of Karachi, Hyderabad, Multan, Faisalabad, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad, etc.

Lastly, at the end of the day, the decision on which route to take will rest with the companies using the CPEC in light of their own business interests. Whereas some who simply want to move their product from point to point may choose the western route, those that wish to collect a local product or distribute their own in the local market may use another route.

In light of these brief points, the educated and well-informed segment of society should assess the validity of the political sloganeering that is being used to stir up a controversy and speak up against this petty political point scoring that has held us back from progressing as a country and threatens to continue doing so.

C for CPEC, Callousness and Controversy | Life as a Pakistani

@Side-Winder @Horus @WAJsal @HRK

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## Stealth

Sab pagal hain bas PMLN ke Govt sach bool rahe hey.. these ***** become everything related Pakistan to Punjab.... shukar hey samandar nahe lagta Punjab ko warna inhonay route waheen rook dena tha.. begerat tola rullingthe state

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Manidabest

political interest is spoiling a very good project...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Icarus said:


> Only a few months in and far from completion, the project has already fallen victim to political controversy and questions are being raised about the possibility of its completion as the rhetoric around it has started to look eerily familiar to the typical arguments raised in opposition to the Kalabagh dam.



Is anybody surprised by this turn of events? Really?

What is happening in entirely predictable and to be expected, Sir. The reality of CPEC will be very different than the hype presently being peddled.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Icarus

Stealth said:


> Sab pagal hain bas PMLN ke Govt sach bool rahe hey.. these ***** become everything related Pakistan to Punjab.... shukar hey samandar nahe lagta Punjab ko warna inhonay route waheen rook dena tha.. begerat tola rullingthe state



But thats the whole point, route wahan nahi ruk raha.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Is anybody surprised by this turn of events? Really?
> 
> What is happening in entirely predictable and to be expected, Sir. The reality of CPEC will be very different than the hype presently being peddled.



I can't say I am surprised but I had perhaps deluded myself into thinking this fractured wreck we call a country could finally agree on something. I don't get Pakistan sometimes, if the people are so sick of the Federation, why don't they just call for a referendum and cede? But when you voice that alternative, all of a sudden the most bitter critic of the federation becomes enraged and defends the federation with such vigour that he himself had declared was fleecing his people merely minutes ago. Its beyond rationality.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Sliver

IMO - The eastern route that includes most of the economically strong cities sounds more realistic plan. It will increase the overall economic productivity when compared to putting a road through less economically active regions.
The attempt to move it based on politics is not a good move, economics and Politics dont always go hand in hand

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.

In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better. 

As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Sliver

Horus said:


> They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely *trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections.* It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.



That probably is a very plausible explanation. And I agree that being closer to the Indian border will make it a worthwhile "strategic depth" replacement as the Chinese will get a reason to retaliate if any skirmish would affect its economic activity. It might also act as a deterrent with India getting partial access to the economic artery and thus increasing the stakes for all three players (and hence less rhetoric of war and more economic activity for all) but that too much to ask for in the next 30 years atleast (IMO).

CPEC will probably be the mainstay of Pakistan's economy for the foreseeable future if used well. it can be the base from which more growth can be achieved and it can be the base from which a lot of poverty reduction can happen.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

CPEC has been listed as a 'special project'. Which means it holds the same value as our nuclear program did once. It will be completed, however we would have to deal with these dumwits we elected to serve us.




Sliver said:


> That probably is a very plausible explanation. And I agree that being closer to the Indian border will make it a worthwhile "strategic depth" replacement as the Chinese will get a reason to retaliate if any skirmish would affect its economic activity. It might also act as a deterrent with India getting partial access to the economic artery and thus increasing the stakes for all three players (and hence less rhetoric of war and more economic activity for all) but that too much to ask for in the next 30 years atleast (IMO).
> 
> CPEC will probably be the mainstay of Pakistan's economy for the foreseeable future if used well. it can be the base from which more growth can be achieved and it can be the base from which a lot of poverty reduction can happen.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Icarus

Horus said:


> PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.
> 
> In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.
> 
> As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".
> 
> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar



That's a very fair analysis I must say, as ever PTI's role in this issue is one not befitting a national party that claims to represent the interests of the educated middle class. They are making this an issue of ego more than one of economics, as long as there is a western route being built, they have no rationale in demanding that it be the sole route. They are trying to either block the project entirely or at least monopolize it. A cheap tactic at best which harms the interests of the country as a whole.



Horus said:


> CPEC has been listed as a 'special project'. Which means it holds the same value as our nuclear program did once. It will be completed, however we would have to deal with these dumwits we elected to serve us.



Kalabagh Dam also remained a project of the highest priority for over two decades before being relegated to number 14. I won't doubt our capacity to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Truck traffic stalls , all traffic on highways , so if there are 3 options to move good it will be beneficial

The OFFICALs have openly stated in video there will be 3 Routes to move goods

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

PTI is in a defeatist mode. As per IK's logic Supporting CPEC = Supporting PMLN. That is disastrous. 



Icarus said:


> That's a very fair analysis I must say, as ever PTI's role in this issue is one not befitting a national party that claims to represent the interests of the educated middle class. They are making this an issue of ego more than one of economics, as long as there is a western route being built, they have no rationale in demanding that it be the sole route. They are trying to either block the project entirely or at least monopolize it. A cheap tactic at best which harms the interests of the country as a whole.
> 
> 
> Kalabagh Dam also remained a project of the highest priority for over two decades before being relegated to number 14. I won't doubt our capacity to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Icarus

Horus said:


> PTI is in a defeatist mode. As per IK's logic Supporting CPEC = Supporting PMLN. That is disastrous.



Indeed, as a national leader, he still has some way to go before he can start identifying issues for what they are actually worth. There is some consolation in knowing that this is Chinese money though and they never make a bad investment, the Chinese will complete this project even if they have to build a road that is suspended over the whole country.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thank you China for the CPEC VISIONARY cooperation












The revolutionary project

China & Pakistan





Not forgetting contribution by Musharaf for Gwadar and projects which were pro Baluchistan





People like diesel are anti Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Sugarcane

Icarus said:


> Indeed, as a national leader, he still has some way to go before he can start identifying issues for what they are actually worth. There is some consolation in knowing that this is Chinese money though and they never make a bad investment, the Chinese will complete this project even if they have to build a road that is suspended over the whole country.



I don't think IK even deserve to be called leader let alone national leader. Thanks God he was not able to win otherwise would still have been trying to negotiate with TTP on constitution avenue.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

libertycall said:


> I think most Pashtuns/Pathans and Baluchis if given the choice would secede. Let's not forget that the Baluchis were forcibly incorporated into Pakistan by the 'saintly' Jinnah, and that hundreds of peaceful Pashtuns/Pathans demonstrators were shot dead also on his orders at the Barbrra massacre.
> 
> Since they are not being given the choice, there will be endless conflict in Pakistan until those groups are allowed to go free.
> 
> Given a choice between seeing a slow motion Han Chinese takeover of the lands of the Indus a la Tibet...Pashtuns would rather be free. If the Punjabi and Kashmiri Jatts want to lick the Han boot, that is their choice.



What a crock of shyt!
Pashtuns today comprise 35% of the military ! And FC is entirely Pashtun .. Pashtuns have been Heads of State,military chiefs etc!

There is no Pashtun succession insurgency .. Even the TTP (which has other ethnic terrorists factions Aswell) demand not succession but their brand of sharia!
You foolishly mentioned barbrra.. Without knowing anything about it! It was a protest by red shirts (communists) against Anglo Saxon legal system in the country .. Which lead to a misconception (attract on the DCO) and resulted in the incident.. Both the police and the officer were from KPK .. And the protest wasn't against "forceful" merger of KPK with Pakistan.. Muslim League had won a clear victory in KPK !!-- there is no succession movement in KPK.. so stop bastardising history!

I'm a Baluch and so are several members and mods on this forum ! Several Baluch princely states had merged with Pakistan themselves .. Including Makran,Lasbella etc! The only princely state that hesitated (at first) was Kalat !! Which was in the middle of Baluchistan surrounded by states that had already merged with Pakistan.. The Khan of Kalat held negotiations with Quaid e Azam and merged with Pakistan.. It was his brother that lead resistance against the state!.. But later surrendered on amnesty offer by state! Today the Khan of Kalats grandson is a proud Pakistani!
The insurgency broke out during Bhuttos regime .. On issues like 1 unit system,, and later died.

Even today the light intensity conflict is mostly over with the militant leaders wanting talks! The sons of the previous anti state militant leaders are sitting in govt .. A Baluch Nationalist govt is ruling Baluchistan.. And our province is peaceful and going towards development thanks to good steps like 18tg amendment (provincial autonomy),NFC awards and mass campaign of recruitment by army from Baluchistan ... Along with steps like the establishment of schools,cadet colleges etc.. Even at the height of insurgency .. It was about autonomy and neglect of state ! Not succession !


So don't peddle your shyt here...

Even the person you ignorantly quoted is a Pashtun!



Selous said:


> What you need is a sulfuric acid enema.



Selous you are also Pashtun if my memory serves me right..

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
4 | Like Like:
10


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

libertycall said:


> Please provide a breakdown of the senior ranks. Even the Syrian army had a large component of Sunnis in its ranks. It doesn't mean much. So for instance did the British Indian Army, likewise doesn't mean they are regarded as equals.


You must be really dumb to say something like that.. And I mean really retarded... Do I need to list military chiefs and presidents like Ayub,Yahya,Nur Khan,Hamid Gul,Asad Durrani,Waheed Kakar,Abbas Khattak,Asghar Khan,Hakeemullah Khan Durani,Jamal A Khan,Farooq Feroze Khan.. etc etc..(to name a few mil chiefs) Who lead the military as "unequal" inferior military chiefs & 3 star generals!



> The unarmed protesters shot dead in the Barbrra massacre were members of the Khudai Khidmatgars were followers of Abdul Ghaffar Khan. Check your facts before you correct someone else.


Guess who was called Reds Shirts .. And which party is a heir to KK? .. You are either very foolish or just another sad little troll.

@farhan_9909 @Khan_patriot. @Pukhtoon. @TaimiKhan. @ghilzai. @T-Faz. @Orakzai. When are you guys succeeding from evil Pakistan!



> How peaceful Baluchistan is can be gauged by the numbers of bodies of Baluchis being found dumped by the side of the roads in Baluchistan and the murders carried out by Sayyid Pervez Musharaf. Likewise your history of the Baluchi rejection of Pakistan is as much a myth as your claim that the Khudai Khidmatgars were 'communists'. People like yourself are adept at these sorts of labeling games e.g. Pashtuns/Pathans who are deobandis become 'Wahhabis' on Pakistani television even while Urdu speakers hide their pro-Ayatollah sympathies among the Gulf Arabs.
> 
> Regarding the rest of your anecdotal proof, there are people who are asleep and there are traitors like Sayyid Mir Jaafar Ali among every group of people.
> 
> And if you're going to use abusive language you may as well not bother because as Shaykh Saadi said centuries ago, 'those whose reason fails, they have only heads filled with abuse'.



@Irfan Baloch. Is this guy just dumb or a troll ?

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Khan_patriot

libertycall said:


> I think most Pashtuns/Pathans and Baluchis if given the choice would secede. Let's not forget that the Baluchis were forcibly incorporated into Pakistan by the 'saintly' Jinnah, and that hundreds of peaceful Pashtuns/Pathans demonstrators were shot dead also on his orders at the Barbrra massacre.
> 
> Since they are not being given the choice, there will be endless conflict in Pakistan until those groups are allowed to go free.
> 
> Given a choice between seeing a slow motion Han Chinese takeover of the lands of the Indus a la Tibet...Pashtuns would rather be free. If the Punjabi and Kashmiri Jatts want to lick the Han boot, that is their choice.


What are you on mate, I am from the Pukhtoon heartland and I am proud to say that I am a proud, patriotic Pakistani.
I say that not just for myself but can safely say this about the huge majority in the region.
You might say that the tribals are the ones who want to cede but I am a tribal as well and we have a long and proud tradition of proudly fighting for the state.
Pukhtoons form a huge chunk of the military, bureaucracy, the business class and even the political process.
Some might have grievances but they are just that, they want their grievances to be addressed and not cessation.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You must be really dumb to say something like that.. And I mean really retarded... Do I need to list military chiefs and presidents like Ayub,Yahya,Nur Khan,Hamid Gul,Asad Durrani,Waheed Kakar,Abbas Khattak,Asghar Khan,Hakeemullah Khan Durani,Jamal A Khan,Farooq Feroze Khan.. etc etc..(to name a few mil chiefs) Who lead the military as "unequal" inferior military chiefs & 3 star generals!
> 
> 
> Guess who was called Reds Shirts .. And which party is a heir to KK? .. You are either very foolish or just another sad little troll.
> 
> @farhan_9909 @Khan_patriot. @Pukhtoon. @TaimiKhan. @ghilzai. @T-Faz. @Orakzai. When are you guys succeeding from evil Pakistan!
> 
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch. Is this guy just dumb or a troll ?


Bro this guy has just been on the on the pipe a bit too much, I don't know if he is genuinely naive or just a troll or a victim of Indian the shite Indians spew here more often then not.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Khan_patriot said:


> What are you on mate, I am from the Pukhtoon heartland and I am proud to say that I am a proud, patriotic Pakistani.
> I say that not just for myself but can safely say this about the huge majority in the region.
> You might say that the tribals are the ones who want to cede but I am a tribal as well and we have a long and proud tradition of proudly fighting for the state.
> Pukhtoons form a huge chunk of the military, bureaucracy, the business class and even the political process.
> Some might have grievances but they are just that, they want their grievances to be addressed and not cessation.
> 
> Bro this guy has just been on the on the pipe a bit too much, I don't know if he is genuinely naive or just a troll or a victim of Indian the shite Indians spew here more often then not.



Pashtuns or any Pak ethnic group doesn't need to prove or have a certified to show their patriotism ..! Fuk that.. That disgusts me.

As for this guy .. I have a feeling that this guy is either Indian or a pseudo intellectual type.. Like that turd "tareek fateeh" clown.

I just tagged you guys to embarrass him.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Irfan Baloch

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Irfan Baloch. Is this guy just dumb or a troll ?


guy has issues .. what can I say? Allah knows well what goes through the heart but its definately dark. the prefix to Musharraf's name is a big give away and his problem with it.

Surah Kausar comes to mind for the likes of such people.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Sugarcane

Irfan Baloch said:


> guy has issues .. what can I say? Allah knows well what goes through the heart but its definately dark. the prefix to Musharraf's name is a big give away and his problem with it.
> 
> Surah Kausar comes to mind for the likes of such people.



Looks like 2nd janam of @Porus, flag check is required.


----------



## MilSpec

Horus said:


> *PTI* is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.
> 
> In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.
> 
> As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".
> 
> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar


???


----------



## Viper0011.

Icarus said:


> _*CPEC and some politicians with new found voices have become a regular feature on national television, the opposing view has not been effectively conveyed by neither the government nor the media. All that's come out against this skullduggery is this one blog entry, about a rational reality that more people need to see for themselves. *_
> 
> The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, also known as CPEC consists of a proposed plan to establish a network of roads and rail link from the Pakistani deep sea port of Gwadar to the Kashgar Special Economic Zone and then deeper into China. The plan is intended to stimulate growth in other sectors as well and a set of gas/oil pipelines in addition to several industrial zones are set to be built around the CPEC serving as a nucleus.
> @Side-Winder @Horus @WAJsal @HRK



Great post!! I wanted to add a few comments too:

1) CPEC is a 3 phase program (not sure why Pakistani media keeps calling it a "PROJECT"). A "Program" has many projects in it. So the CPEC program has different legs / segments and each of those segments has its own projects. For example, Energy is one leg / segment and has energy production related projects. Infrastructure is another leg / segment and has its own list of projects. Port and related things are under another leg, trade routes and business districts are another leg with associated projects!!!!

So this program is a network of projects. None of which are influenced by people, states, governments, but rather, how best the entire program would work, where the businesses vs. shipping hubs, vs. the ports need to be, for which type of business and trade activity (VERY complex strategy).

2) This notion that somehow "Punjab" is taking all the love and cash is frankly stupid. I've been studying this project since the blue prints of it were discussed between NS, the Chinese, WB and ADB two years ago.

3) Now let's move to today from the 3 phases I mentioned before. Today, we are in Phase I. And in that phase, there is a network of routes the Chinese will build (first network). They will build these based on their perceived trade activities, routing, and SAFETY.

In other words, where they feel the most safe right now, they'll work on it while the new Marine force is setup and other protection is spread to other "sensitive" areas. So its obvious that due to safety concerns, some areas won't see work starting till later.

That's not due to corruption, or one state taking others money, its simple common sense. The investor rules and its their money. Pakistanis should appreciate such a large investment that would change Pakistan into an Australia (literally and GDP wise) in a decade or so!!

4) Initially, there are 17 business / industry parks to be setup in phase I. And 5 will be in KPK, 4 in Baluchistan, 5 in Sindh and later, 4 in Punjab (so the KPK and Baluchistan start out with a bigger share). The road connectivity will be all over the country to China and eventually to Iran and the Central Russian states on the other side through KPK. The M series of highways will intersect with this route in every state and in multiple points in the long run. So its not like someone is being "ignored" as the stupid, illiterate, narrow minded politicians say it all the time!!

5) The MOST benefit would be received by the people of KPK and Baluchistan. Baluchistan obviously more than anyone else. Punjab will have its share of growth due to already setup industries. But Baluchistan and the KPK will take over Punjab's place on the growth map, as the program and associated infrastructure is expanded in phases.

But people of Baluchistan and one side of the KPK will start to see an industrial revolution by 2018-2019. Much more and faster than the rest of the country.

6) There is another M series highway being built between Lahore and Karachi. Punjab will continue to use Karachi as the main port as the distance is MUCH lesser that way, then it is to many parts of Punjab to Gawader. Plus, there are already established relationships between the two states for shipping and receiving stuff through Karachi already.

At the end, all states will become peaceful, modern and richer if this program goes through. It is stupid for any politician to question a foreign investment based program which, by using common sense tells you how valuable it is for Pakistan.

Once connected to Central Russian states, majority of the share of the trade and business activity will be done in and through the KPK and Baluchistan due to shorter distance to Punjab and Sindh and to the Central Russian states.

So why don't your politicians get it? I don't know as they are damaging their own country and denying pretty much the only serious opportunity that exists for Pakistan's growth, to this nation.

Its the people's responsibility at this point to ensure this program succeeds so that Pakistan can become like a UAE (actually Pakistan will go much higher than the UAE due to her population, size of the market and young labor, more like Australia)!!

@MastanKhan @Imran Khan @Mrc : We just brought this up in a different thread briefly. I wrote a longer / detailed version of the CPEC program. Read up and let me know your thoughts.

@mr42O @Leader @Jzaib @notorious_eagle @Ammara Chaudhry : I thought I'd add you guys on here so you can understand some more about the CPEC project as you casually criticize it without knowing what it really is!!

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
6


----------



## Jungibaaz

Look, the criticism of CPEC can be valid, there is MUCH to be desired from this government and transparency, and of course it has stupidly put it's own projects under the CPEC umbrella and blurred the lines between some things that should be well defined and separate.

Opposition can fight well with the government on their disagreements, they know they can put up a fight, they have the political power to pressure the government. But halting, seriously delaying or creating a hostile atmosphere to this thing is not the way, it is a big opportunity worth more than anything we've ever seen in out lifetimes. Don't mess it up, by all means improve it, pressure the government, that is your job. 

This project is bigger than the provincial politics or party games that may be played here.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## SQ8

IK is essentially now feeling the withdrawal effects of the "Tsunami". The people have moved onto other things and his dreams of being PM are pretty much dashed to naught.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Orakzai

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You must be really dumb to say something like that.. And I mean really retarded... Do I need to list military chiefs and presidents like Ayub,Yahya,Nur Khan,Hamid Gul,Asad Durrani,Waheed Kakar,Abbas Khattak,Asghar Khan,Hakeemullah Khan Durani,Jamal A Khan,Farooq Feroze Khan.. etc etc..(to name a few mil chiefs) Who lead the military as "unequal" inferior military chiefs & 3 star generals!
> 
> 
> Guess who was called Reds Shirts .. And which party is a heir to KK? .. You are either very foolish or just another sad little troll.
> 
> @farhan_9909 @Khan_patriot. @Pukhtoon. @TaimiKhan. @ghilzai. @T-Faz. @Orakzai. When are you guys succeeding from evil Pakistan!
> 
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch. Is this guy just dumb or a troll ?


we are not, this is our country. we would raise voice against injustice when its done to our people but that doesn't mean we want secession from Pakistan, its useless to say.

But at the same time when we talk about rights of KPK FATA and Baluchistan, some idiots on PDF label us traitors, i doubt they would say it on our face but since they know that they are hiding behind computer so they do say shit as they like.
khattak's stance is very just on this whole CPEC issue.



Viper0011. said:


> Great post!! I wanted to add a few comments too:
> 
> 1) CPEC is a 3 phase program (not sure why Pakistani media keeps calling it a "PROJECT"). A "Program" has many projects in it. So the CPEC program has different legs / segments and each of those segments has its own projects. For example, Energy is one leg / segment and has energy production related projects. Infrastructure is another leg / segment and has its own list of projects. Port and related things are under another leg, trade routes and business districts are another leg with associated projects!!!!
> 
> So this program is a network of projects. None of which are influenced by people, states, governments, but rather, how best the entire program would work, where the businesses vs. shipping hubs, vs. the ports need to be, for which type of business and trade activity (VERY complex strategy).
> 
> 2) This notion that somehow "Punjab" is taking all the love and cash is frankly stupid. I've been studying this project since the blue prints of it were discussed between NS, the Chinese, WB and ADB two years ago.
> 
> 3) Now let's move to today from the 3 phases I mentioned before. Today, we are in Phase I. And in that phase, there is a network of routes the Chinese will build (first network). They will build these based on their perceived trade activities, routing, and SAFETY.
> 
> In other words, where they feel the most safe right now, they'll work on it while the new Marine force is setup and other protection is spread to other "sensitive" areas. So its obvious that due to safety concerns, some areas won't see work starting till later.
> 
> That's not due to corruption, or one state taking others money, its simple common sense. The investor rules and its their money. Pakistanis should appreciate such a large investment that would change Pakistan into an Australia (literally and GDP wise) in a decade or so!!
> 
> 4) Initially, there are 17 business / industry parks to be setup in phase I. And 5 will be in KPK, 4 in Baluchistan, 5 in Sindh and later, 4 in Punjab (so the KPK and Baluchistan start out with a bigger share). The road connectivity will be all over the country to China and eventually to Iran and the Central Russian states on the other side through KPK. The M series of highways will intersect with this route in every state and in multiple points in the long run. So its not like someone is being "ignored" as the stupid, illiterate, narrow minded politicians say it all the time!!
> 
> 5) The MOST benefit would be received by the people of KPK and Baluchistan. Baluchistan obviously more than anyone else. Punjab will have its share of growth due to already setup industries. But Baluchistan and the KPK will take over Punjab's place on the growth map, as the program and associated infrastructure is expanded in phases.
> 
> But people of Baluchistan and one side of the KPK will start to see an industrial revolution by 2018-2019. Much more and faster than the rest of the country.
> 
> 6) There is another M series highway being built between Lahore and Karachi. Punjab will continue to use Karachi as the main port as the distance is MUCH lesser that way, then it is to many parts of Punjab to Gawader. Plus, there are already established relationships between the two states for shipping and receiving stuff through Karachi already.
> 
> At the end, all states will become peaceful, modern and richer if this program goes through. It is stupid for any politician to question a foreign investment based program which, by using common sense tells you how valuable it is for Pakistan.
> 
> Once connected to Central Russian states, majority of the share of the trade and business activity will be done in and through the KPK and Baluchistan due to shorter distance to Punjab and Sindh and to the Central Russian states.
> 
> So why don't your politicians get it? I don't know as they are damaging their own country and denying pretty much the only serious opportunity that exists for Pakistan's growth, to this nation.
> 
> Its the people's responsibility at this point to ensure this program succeeds so that Pakistan can become like a UAE (actually Pakistan will go much higher than the UAE due to her population, size of the market and young labor, more like Australia)!!
> 
> @MastanKhan @Imran Khan @Mrc : We just brought this up in a different thread briefly. I wrote a longer / detailed version of the CPEC program. Read up and let me know your thoughts.
> 
> @mr42O @Leader @Jzaib @notorious_eagle @Ammara Chaudhry : I thought I'd add you guys on here so you can understand some more about the CPEC project as you casually criticize it without knowing what it really is!!



well you do have some valid points but i would like you to have a look at this CPEC project's pic, which shows where most of the power projects are going to be made hence out of $46 billion $37-$39 billion is going to be spent on energy projects. And in this whole chain of projects KPK will get only one project, so means out of $39 billion may be $700 millions -$1 billion are going in KPK share.





KPK's reservations are not the route or road but more of the unavailability of all other utilities like energy, fibre optic, gas which are vital for flourishing of any industry, its easy to say KPK is going to be benefited the most but how?

plus i was wondering what on earth METRO LAHORE has got anything to do with CPEC?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Moonlight

@viper0011 sir thanks for the tag and I was totally looking for this. 
Before I read through all the comments and arguments, I want to ask something. I read an argument somewhere made by PML(N)'s supporters, that why the rout of this network is only going to be through the cities of Punjab? Pardon my lack of knowledge to this matter. Did China draw a different map to this route? This route goes through all the four provinces? But PML (N) rejected it?


----------



## Icarus

Orakzai said:


> we are not, this is our country. we would raise voice against injustice when its done to our people but that doesn't mean we want secession from Pakistan, its useless to say.
> 
> But at the same time when we talk about rights of KPK FATA and Baluchistan, some idiots on PDF label us traitors, i doubt they would say it on our face but since they know that they are hiding behind computer so they do say shit as they like.
> khattak's stance is very just on this whole CPEC issue.
> 
> 
> 
> well you do have some valid points but i would like you to have a look at this CPEC project's pic, which shows where most of the power projects are going to be made hence out of $46 billion $37-$39 billion is going to be spent on energy projects. And in this whole chain of projects KPK will get only one project, so means out of $39 billion may be $700 millions -$1 billion are going in KPK share.
> View attachment 286915
> 
> KPK's reservations are not the route or road but more of the unavailability of all other utilities like energy, fibre optic, gas which are vital for flourishing of any industry, its easy to say KPK is going to be benefited the most but how?
> 
> plus i was wondering what on earth METRO LAHORE has got anything to do with CPEC?




This infographic is flawed, it incorporates all the development projects in Pakistan and places them under the title of CPEC, your question about Orange Line is an observation along the same limes. It is not a part of the CPEC program and nor are several of these other projects.



Ammara Chaudhry said:


> @viper0011 sir thanks for the tag and I was totally looking for this.
> Before I read through all the comments and arguments, I want to ask something. I read an argument somewhere made by PML(N)'s supporters, that why the rout of this network is only going to be through the cities of Punjab? Pardon my lack of knowledge to this matter. Did China draw a different map to this route? This route goes through all the four provinces? But PML (N) rejected it?



We are in no position to reject or accept anything, its a Chinese project and thus under their discretion. Its just political point scoring going on between parties who feel their position would be undermined if this government completes this project so they will halt it and cause a massive loss to the nation rather than let the government complete it and take credit.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

everything must become political for the media and certain vested interest groups.......CPEC is a great opportunity to connect the region and it will pay its dividends soon Inshallah. Sick and tired of the banter and whining by the morons

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

Horus said:


> PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.
> 
> In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.
> 
> As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".
> 
> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar



I think you have done a very wrong assessment of the situation. And India will never think a 100 times in case of war of not attacking the route. If its required, they will attack, rather they will make it an objective to further put us under pressure. 

And once the route of PML-N (eastern) is active before the main (western) route, i can assure you the that no further investment will be made in Baluchistan or KPK, rather all the invest and preference will go to eastern route. Western route will never materialize. 

And i feel very sorry for especially senior members on this board who are making it into a PML-N Vs PTI fight, which in reality is not.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
9


----------



## Moonlight

Icarus said:


> We are in no position to reject or accept anything, its a Chinese project and thus under their discretion. Its just political point scoring going on between parties who feel their position would be undermined if this government completes this project so they will halt it and cause a massive loss to the nation rather than let the government complete it and take credit.



Got it. Thanks! 
Here's another question, why everything has to pass via Lahore? Like motorway, M1/2? Isn't it a valid argument? Pakistan is not just Lahore.






Can you please explain this map to me?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Icarus

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> Got it. Thanks!
> Here's another question, why everything has to pass via Lahore? Like motorway, M1/2? Isn't it a valid argument? Pakistan is not just Lahore.
> View attachment 286937
> 
> 
> Can you please explain this map to me?



The because its Pakistan's second largest city? Same as why everything has to pass through Karachi.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

Icarus said:


> *There is some consolation in knowing that this is Chinese money though and they never make a bad investment, the Chinese will complete this project even if they have to build a road that is suspended over the whole country.*



Very true. $46 billion is a huge amount of money, and more importantly, it's a geostrategic imperative for us, it is a cornerstone of our overarching vision of increasing economic connectivity in the Asian landmass.

It will be completed for sure.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Moonlight

Icarus said:


> The because its Pakistan's second largest city? Same as why everything has to pass through Karachi.



Ha' Now I see the problem there. Thanks!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Orakzai said:


> well you do have some valid points but i would like you to have a look at this CPEC project's pic, which shows where most of the power projects are going to be made hence out of $46 billion $37-$39 billion is going to be spent on energy projects. And in this whole chain of projects KPK will get only one project, so means out of $39 billion may be $700 millions -$1 billion are going in KPK share.
> View attachment 286915
> 
> KPK's reservations are not the route or road but more of the unavailability of all other utilities like energy, fibre optic, gas which are vital for flourishing of any industry, its easy to say KPK is going to be benefited the most but how?
> 
> plus i was wondering what on earth METRO LAHORE has got anything to do with CPEC?



1) Wrong map. Remember, you are ONLY looking at Phase I. People are causing tremendous drama without knowing the entire roadmap over the next 10-15 years!!

2) The ONLY two most beneficial states are the KPK and Baluchistan, like i said in my explanation above. Both are the epicenter of the CPEC due to their closer proximity to the Chinese border, with Central Russian states, and with Gawader (and later with Iran). So the real wealth will be going to the KPK and Baluchistan. These foolish politicians from the KPK are making a deal out of thin air, just to score political points and deprive the nation from the ONLY real opportunity she has to turn Pakistan into an Australia in a decade or so (literally).

3) The energy projects you mentioned, are just for phase I. The map is wrong on those too. Find an original map if you have access to it. The Chinese have some security concerns, and the Pakistani Army has started working on securing a larger area. Until all those things happen, the Chinese will work on "secure zones" as they deem necessary. Its their money and they control the delivery and work zones. Just the way investments work.

4) Metro Lahore has no direct relationship with the CPEC. In other words, it may also have a huge investment from the Chinese, but its not due to the CPEC trade route. However, it is indirectly linked to the CPEC in terms of CPEC being used as a larger PROGRAM to grow Pakistan's economy. 

The Chinese, as phase II of the CPEC when starts in 2019 - 2020, will be putting big manufacturing plants around the country's most populous areas. Haer has been looking into Lahore for her first plant. 

So the infrastructure development at the province level is to create modern cities which will connect the city's population cheaply to outside industrial zones, as well as reducing traffic congestion, connecting more people for work, etc. All of which will shape up future's Lahore, Islamabad, etc when they get into real growth mode by 2018!!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Icarus

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Very true. $46 billion is a huge amount of money, and more importantly, it's a geostrategic imperative for us, it is a cornerstone of our overarching vision of increasing economic connectivity in the Asian landmass.
> 
> It will be completed for sure.



It would be more rewarding though if this project can be completed with consensus of everybody on board but unfortunately any significant project has to be deferred for petty point scoring. I remember when the Motorway was being built, Benazir Bhutto lead a mass movement against its construction on the political slogan that the poor do not drive sports cars that they need a motorway, this project is for the rich. Just imagine what a stupid campaign that was and now try to realize that this campaign actually held up the motorway for several years before it was finally constructed and since then has become the jugular vein of Pakistan's transport system.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## saiyan0321

Swat Motorway, Sharmai, Shogoin, Shushgai power stations, 500-bedded trauma burn hospital, EPZs in Rashakai, Nowshera, Hattar, D I Khan, trucking terminal in Mansehra, Peshawar, Bannu among identified projects

PESHAWAR: The Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government has conveyed to the Chinese authorities projects of critical importance to the development of the province for inclusion in the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

Sharing details with this scribe, a top-ranking official of the Planning and Development Department Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, said the Chinese leaders involved with the CPEC project had been sanitised about the projects desired by the province.

The official, pleading anonymity, said at least 12 such projects had been identified to the Chinese delegation led by special envoy of President Xi Jinping, and director China Development and Reform Commission, Xu Shaoshi.

The official said that at the Joint Cooperation Committee’s 5th meeting, the provincial government requested Xu Shaoshi to include some of the potential projects including the construction of 81 kilometres long Swat Motorway, Sharmai, Shogosin and Shusghai hydropower projects and 500-bed trauma and burn hospital in Peshawar.

The provincial government has also recommended to the Chinese Development Commission head that special Economic Zones at Rashakai, Nowshera, Hattar and Dera Ismail Khan, and trucking and logistic terminal in Mansehra, Peshawar and Bannu should also be developed as part of the CPEC, he said.

He claimed that the provincial government wanted all these projects to be included in the CPEC as part of the construction of the western route of the corridor along with all allied infrastructure of gas, LNG, optic fiber and electricity projects.

He said the provincial government had informed the Chinese delegation at the Joint Cooperation Committee’s conference that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had announced on May 28, 2015 in the All Parties Conference that the western route passing through Khyber Pakhtunkhwa would be the route of the corridor, but it has now been reduced to a mere highway.

He said the provincial representative Khaliqur Rehman, who is a parliamentary secretary, in his remarks at the 5th Joint Cooperation Committee’s meeting also informed the Chinese delegation that the western route of the corridor, which was the original route of the project, was 635 kilometre shorter than the realigned eastern route. Khaliqur Rehman emphasized that an immediate start on work on the western route was needed.

The P&D official referred to the document of the presentation made at the May 28 All Parties Conference, and said that the federal government had identified 14 priority power projects for the CPEC including Suki Kinari hydropower, the only one from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, having capacity of 840 megawatt and costing $1.8 billion.

The official added that one of the requirements of the CPEC was those projects that are being actively promoted by the provinces. The projects recommended by Khyber Pakhtunkhwa are actively promoted projects and part of the provincial government’s economic development vision.

He pointed out that medium-term power projects of 144 MW Shusghai in Chitral district, Shogosin (132 MW) and Sharmai (150 MW), are of part of the provincial government’s Action Plan. “These projects will be completed by the end of 2018 at the cost of just Rs130.90 billion to generate 626 megawatts electricity,” he said.

According to the official, the provincial government has established the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Economic Zones Development and Management Company (EZDMC) that is actively pursuing the projects of industrial estates and economic zones in the areas recommended by the provincial government for the CPEC and which only the other day were recommended to the prime minister by the committee formed for the purpose.

He said EZDMC was actively working on the establishment of phase seven of the Industrial Estate Hattar, Special Economic Zone along the Motorway M-I, Rashakai, Nowshera, Industrial Estate Ghazi, Haripur, Industrial Estate Jalozai, Industrial Estate, Dera Ismail Khan, Export Processing Zone (EPZ) Risalpur, Industrial Estate Nowshera, EPZ at the border of Kohat and Karak district, Industrial Estate Gadoon Amazai, Mineral Based Industrial Estate Chitral and the proposed Industrial Estate Buner, which could be “actively promoted projects” for the CPEC.

The official said if the federal government was serious in overcoming the challenges pinpointed at the JCC meeting, it would have to consider the projects identified by Khyber Pakhtunkhwa to be included in the CEPC.

- See more at: KP conveys projects to Chinese authorities for CPEC: Official | Pakistan | thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## tarrar

Anti Pakistan elements like ANP, JUI-F, MQM & surprisingly even PTI are throwing hurdles are becoming obstacle in the way of CPEC & mega Pakistani projects.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> @viper0011 sir thanks for the tag and I was totally looking for this.
> *That why the rout of this network is only going to be through the cities of Punjab?* Pardon my lack of knowledge to this matter. Did China draw a different map to this route? This route goes through all the four provinces? But PML (N) rejected it?



You are welcome. The CPEC when used in a broader term of a program to grow the Pakistani economy, is a network of trade routes, infrastructure and industrial hubs,all connected to each other so that the trade can be done optimally, goods and services can be shipped and brought in as cheaply as possible. This requires an extremely complex strategy.

The MOST benefit and wealth will go to the KPK and Baluchistan due to this program. There is no question about it. So how could this "ignoring" taking place in places which will benefit the most from the CPEC ?. Its the stupid politicians who want to stop this and make their nation suffer!!

By the time the phase II starts, you'll start to see a vast network of highways being formed. The M series highways from Punjab will intersect with the CPEC in many cities so the common person or businessman can adapt the route which helps his or her business. That's the idea. 

So people who think "all routes" will go through Punjab or the likes, are living in fool's paradise!! 

These are the same narrow minded, anti-Pakistan's growth mentality people who shouldn't be calling themselves "leaders". The nation needs growth, GDP increase, better systems of schools, healthcare, education and a growing economy. Not stupid politics of 1980's all over again in 2014. Judge by performance, not by propaganda is all I'll tell you to do, if you want Pakistan to grow. 

Enough talking, bullshiit, Marshall laws and leg pulling. Let's push Pakistan forward to a better position on the world map so her people can get a shot at the real future !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## saiyan0321

My biggest two worries stand are

a. Inflexibility of parties involved in this. Both parties federal and provincial govts need to show flexibility and give grounds to take ground. If they remain rigid then it will only result in bitterness and CPEC being halted which will result in a massive loss to Pakistan. 

B. That this project is timed till 2030. That's 14 years away and in that 14 years we will have the 2018 elections, 2023 elections and the 2028 elections... As we very well know that when the new party comes to power they shut down or disturb the previous partys projects. So if N and PTI keep jumping around in federal then that will result in massive delays and scraping of projects as both are provincial parties rather than national parties. 

This is going to be very tricky and parties will have to keep the interest of Pakistan above their vested interests.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

saiyan0321 said:


> PESHAWAR: The Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government has conveyed to the Chinese authorities projects of critical importance to the development of the province for inclusion in the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).
> 
> Sharing details with this scribe, a top-ranking official of the Planning and Development Department Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, said the Chinese leaders involved with the CPEC project had been sanitised about the projects desired by the province.
> *
> The official said that at the Joint Cooperation Committee’s 5th meeting, the provincial government requested Xu Shaoshi to include some of the potential projects including the construction of 81 kilometres long Swat Motorway, Sharmai, Shogosin and Shusghai hydropower projects and 500-bed trauma and burn hospital in Peshawar.*
> 
> The provincial government has also recommended to the Chinese Development Commission head that special Economic Zones at Rashakai, Nowshera, Hattar and Dera Ismail Khan, and trucking and logistic terminal in Mansehra, Peshawar and Bannu should also be developed as part of the CPEC, he said.



Yup. As always, Pakistanis being Pakistanis. Leg pulling at the best!! Allow me to break a "breaking news" to you. The Chinese didn't decide to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan to feed and raise babies. They have CLEAR goals for their revenue return!! So, what that means is that they have NO care or concern to build a 500 bed trauma hospital or other stuff from above. 

That should be the provincial government's responsibility to do so. But the provincial government in the KPK would just talk their way in and out of everything, but won't produce shiit. 

"There were recommendations made" to the Chinese....before these recommendations were made, there were "threats" made to "shut down the highway" like IK style. The Chinese were very concerned about it. Do you think they have credibility of the KPK government? You can recommend anything, but they have a plan and that will be executed, period.

There is a reason why NS told them to run this with full authorization and without caring for Pakistani politics as everyone remembered Kala Bagh. So this time, the government of Pakistan is JUST a facilitator to provide land, security, materials and labor. Per the contract, it can't change anything that the Chinese want to do. End result, the CPEC will be built and KPK gets the biggest share of $$$$ after Baluchistan. So why not eat the freaking pie, instead of questioning the chef?



Icarus said:


> It would be more rewarding though if this project can be completed with consensus of everybody on board but unfortunately any significant project has to be deferred for petty point scoring. I remember when the Motorway was being built, Benazir Bhutto lead a mass movement against its construction on the political slogan that the poor do not drive sports cars that they need a motorway, this project is for the rich. Just imagine what a stupid campaign that was and now try to realize that this campaign actually held up the motorway for several years before it was finally constructed and since then has become the jugular vein of Pakistan's transport system.



You are absolutely right. The sad part is, the motorway helped the country's defense a lot too. The PAF all of a sudden found herself sitting on a goldmine of FOB's which didn't exist before. Not to mention, a safer secure inter-country route that's 150-200 KM or more away from the borders with India, providing the military with a tremendous back up supply chain network. Otherwise, it used to be just the Grand Trunk road, if India (like 65 and 71), ever got to it, the country would've been cut.

So this is a prime proof on how the cheap politician can turn a nation's lifeline projects into a convoluted piece of confusion. All to score political points and avoid others doing the work. This time, I'd say the people need to be out on the street protesting against politicians who want to stop this. These projects will effect every Pakistani in a good and financially beneficial way!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TaimiKhan

Icarus said:


> The because its Pakistan's second largest city? Same as why everything has to pass through Karachi.



I am really amazed after having read your comments Icarus. I never thought you were from that group. 

I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Icarus

Viper0011. said:


> So this is a prime proof on how the cheap politician can turn a nation's lifeline projects into a convoluted piece of confusion. All to score political points and avoid others doing the work. This time,* I'd say the people need to be out on the street protesting against politicians who want to stop this.* These projects will effect every Pakistani in a good and financially beneficial way!!



That would be ideal but the problem is that this ill-informed and contorted view of the project is actually being parroted by a large segment of the population. All of a sudden, everyone is an expert on the matter and Peshawar needs a new Fibre Optic Link for some reason.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fjavaid

Icarus said:


> But thats the whole point, route wahan nahi ruk raha.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say I am surprised but I had perhaps deluded myself into thinking this fractured wreck we call a country could finally agree on something. I don't get Pakistan sometimes, if the people are so sick of the Federation, why don't they just call for a referendum and cede? But when you voice that alternative, all of a sudden the most bitter critic of the federation becomes enraged and defends the federation with such vigour that he himself had declared was fleecing his people merely minutes ago. Its beyond rationality.


Thats the irony !! ....
mentality of B grade politicians is that either their way or noting .!! i read some where " False accusations/lies are the Best ways to hide your own incompetence n failures" same is valid for Imran khan n company ....


----------



## Icarus

TaimiKhan said:


> I am really amazed after having read your comments Icarus. I never thought you were from that group.
> 
> I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.



I was merely answering the question, I hope it will not be taken out of context.

As it has been pointed out by the government in the past as well, the progress on the western route is well ahead of schedule and not only will it be the first route to be completed (with the eastern route not expected to be operational in the next three years) but also the first route to be made operational.

CPEC western route to be completed next year - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
CPEC Western route to be built as dual carriageway
PM inaugurates CPEC’s western route in Zhob - The Express Tribune


"It may be added that the CPEC is a 15-year project between Pakistan and China spanning 2015-2030, while the Western route is among the Early Harvest Projects which have to be completed by 2018."- Second Article


----------



## fjavaid

Viper0011. said:


> Great post!! I wanted to add a few comments too:
> 
> 1) CPEC is a 3 phase program (not sure why Pakistani media keeps calling it a "PROJECT"). A "Program" has many projects in it. So the CPEC program has different legs / segments and each of those segments has its own projects. For example, Energy is one leg / segment and has energy production related projects. Infrastructure is another leg / segment and has its own list of projects. Port and related things are under another leg, trade routes and business districts are another leg with associated projects!!!!
> 
> So this program is a network of projects. None of which are influenced by people, states, governments, but rather, how best the entire program would work, where the businesses vs. shipping hubs, vs. the ports need to be, for which type of business and trade activity (VERY complex strategy).
> 
> 2) This notion that somehow "Punjab" is taking all the love and cash is frankly stupid. I've been studying this project since the blue prints of it were discussed between NS, the Chinese, WB and ADB two years ago.
> 
> 3) Now let's move to today from the 3 phases I mentioned before. Today, we are in Phase I. And in that phase, there is a network of routes the Chinese will build (first network). They will build these based on their perceived trade activities, routing, and SAFETY.
> 
> In other words, where they feel the most safe right now, they'll work on it while the new Marine force is setup and other protection is spread to other "sensitive" areas. So its obvious that due to safety concerns, some areas won't see work starting till later.
> 
> That's not due to corruption, or one state taking others money, its simple common sense. The investor rules and its their money. Pakistanis should appreciate such a large investment that would change Pakistan into an Australia (literally and GDP wise) in a decade or so!!
> 
> 4) Initially, there are 17 business / industry parks to be setup in phase I. And 5 will be in KPK, 4 in Baluchistan, 5 in Sindh and later, 4 in Punjab (so the KPK and Baluchistan start out with a bigger share). The road connectivity will be all over the country to China and eventually to Iran and the Central Russian states on the other side through KPK. The M series of highways will intersect with this route in every state and in multiple points in the long run. So its not like someone is being "ignored" as the stupid, illiterate, narrow minded politicians say it all the time!!
> 
> 5) The MOST benefit would be received by the people of KPK and Baluchistan. Baluchistan obviously more than anyone else. Punjab will have its share of growth due to already setup industries. But Baluchistan and the KPK will take over Punjab's place on the growth map, as the program and associated infrastructure is expanded in phases.
> 
> But people of Baluchistan and one side of the KPK will start to see an industrial revolution by 2018-2019. Much more and faster than the rest of the country.
> 
> 6) There is another M series highway being built between Lahore and Karachi. Punjab will continue to use Karachi as the main port as the distance is MUCH lesser that way, then it is to many parts of Punjab to Gawader. Plus, there are already established relationships between the two states for shipping and receiving stuff through Karachi already.
> 
> At the end, all states will become peaceful, modern and richer if this program goes through. It is stupid for any politician to question a foreign investment based program which, by using common sense tells you how valuable it is for Pakistan.
> 
> Once connected to Central Russian states, majority of the share of the trade and business activity will be done in and through the KPK and Baluchistan due to shorter distance to Punjab and Sindh and to the Central Russian states.
> 
> So why don't your politicians get it? I don't know as they are damaging their own country and denying pretty much the only serious opportunity that exists for Pakistan's growth, to this nation.
> 
> Its the people's responsibility at this point to ensure this program succeeds so that Pakistan can become like a UAE (actually Pakistan will go much higher than the UAE due to her population, size of the market and young labor, more like Australia)!!
> 
> @MastanKhan @Imran Khan @Mrc : We just brought this up in a different thread briefly. I wrote a longer / detailed version of the CPEC program. Read up and let me know your thoughts.
> 
> @mr42O @Leader @Jzaib @notorious_eagle @Ammara Chaudhry : I thought I'd add you guys on here so you can understand some more about the CPEC project as you casually criticize it without knowing what it really is!!


Chaa gia yar ... ... 
Just look at Baluchistan ..... in just three years it has come a great distance not only in terms of security but economically n educationally .... almost all concerns raised by Baloch parties are accepted by Fed Govt ...cuz Mr mengal, achkzai were looking for solutions rather than jeopardizing the project 
n then we have sindh ..well ...not really much to say about it ...
n KPK ...... govt which is hell bent upon raising false flag just ...to go through 2018 elections n making a fool out of its voters ....



Ammara Chaudhry said:


> Got it. Thanks!
> Here's another question, why everything has to pass via Lahore? Like motorway, M1/2? Isn't it a valid argument? Pakistan is not just Lahore.
> View attachment 286937
> 
> 
> Can you please explain this map to me?


Map you hv attached is false ...incorrect ....made by anti project forces .....just go to planning n commission website for the correct map


----------



## Viper0011.

TaimiKhan said:


> *I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC*, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.



This again is lack of a real understanding about the CPEC. CPEC isn't a name of the road (although from phase I, it is essentially building a road). The CPEC route would include dozens of new cities, industrial towns, municipalities and new communities all around it. No other highway system has the ROOM to build an international corridor with supporting communities and cities. 

Where do they make new highways in the US or in the UK? ALWAYS around some major part of land, that's empty or hilly or has lower income. Why? New cities are formed, new economies and businesses emerge, the real estate values go up due to a trade route coming to otherwise barren land. New cities will have new homes, so the real estate will go up, new schools, new hotels, new factories, new distribution centers, gas stations, hospitals, airports, railway stations, new universities. 

The CPEC Program will result in so much growth that Pakistan won't even need loans and care for external economies for a decade. The internal economic activity would be so dam*n much!!

How do you get all this new infrastructure built to grow the economy WITHOUT having proper room on other existing highway systems? So you build new, around areas you want to populate and make expensive in the future. And all highways will be ALL linked in a later phase!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Sipahi

Transparency is the problem,

Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

mshahid said:


> Transparency is the problem,
> 
> Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.



Surprise Surprise!!!!! KPMG, a Chinese audit company and Transparency international are the auditors of certain parts of the program. Remember, this isn't Mushy's times when the US would deposit a few billion into a bank account. These are Chinese people and know Pakistan in and out. They pay DIRECTLY to the parties doing the work after inspection. You didn't do the work, you won't get paid. No delivery, No money !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Icarus

mshahid said:


> Transparency is the problem,
> 
> Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.



Fully agreed, there needs to be greater public access to the status, funds and details about the project. A lot of speculation is fueled by building an air of secrecy around it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Sky_123

tarrar said:


> Anti Pakistan elements like ANP, JUI-F, MQM & surprisingly even PTI are throwing hurdles are becoming obstacle in the way of CPEC & mega Pakistani projects.



What MQM said against CPEC, any source or just your hallucination?


----------



## saiyan0321

Viper0011. said:


> Yup. As always, Pakistanis being Pakistanis. Leg pulling at the best!! Allow me to break a "breaking news" to you. The Chinese didn't decide to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan to feed and raise babies. They have CLEAR goals for their revenue return!! So, what that means is that they have NO care or concern to build a 500 bed trauma hospital or other stuff from above.
> 
> That should be the provincial government's responsibility to do so. But the provincial government in the KPK would just talk their way in and out of everything, but won't produce shiit.
> 
> "There were recommendations made" to the Chinese....before these recommendations were made, there were "threats" made to "shut down the highway" like IK style. The Chinese were very concerned about it. Do you think they have credibility of the KPK government? You can recommend anything, but they have a plan and that will be executed, period.
> 
> There is a reason why NS told them to run this with full authorization and without caring for Pakistani politics as everyone remembered Kala Bagh. So this time, the government of Pakistan is JUST a facilitator to provide land, security, materials and labor. Per the contract, it can't change anything that the Chinese want to do. End result, the CPEC will be built and KPK gets the biggest share of $$$$ after Baluchistan. So why not eat the freaking pie, instead of questioning the chef?



Don't beak it to me. Break it to those that don't understand investment.. The Chinese have not given N 46b and told them go nuts with it. Every project, every advancement, every addition and every route is done in the eye of the Chinese while the Chinese are kept in the loop about everything. That's why khattak didn't send these investment opportunities to federal for approval of their addition but to the Chinese for approval since they control all after all its their money. 

Investment minds were understood on this forum when people were posting that the private investment of that Disney park should be diverted towards making hospitals or schools or should make one in balochistan or south Punjab. It was understood in that moment that normal people have no understanding about investments nor about the power of investor and his strength and vision in planning. 

Anyhow it seems the demands are in and it could be that through all of this khattak is trying to make up for that lost opportunity when all CMs went to China apart from him and is getting these projects.... 

CPEC will happen but it's much better if all parties are taken together so I hope the Chinese approve a few of them and with the work being done on western route, it should keep them satisfied and should allow CPEC to move forward without any issues. 


As long as diplomacy and flexibility and transparency reign supreme in these talks, we should do OK. After all the beauty of democratic politicians is diplomacy and flexibility in contrast to dictators and monarchs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Icarus said:


> Fully agreed, there needs to be greater public access to the status, funds and details about the project. A lot of speculation is fueled by building an air of secrecy around it.



Ever seen the J-31 and the J-20 thread on this very forum? People still take pictures from behind that dam*n tree we've been seeing for the past 10 years due to "secrecy". The secrecy isn't due to Pakistan. That's how the Chinese like to play it. Its their money and their implementation. Pakistan should just sit tight help out, provide labor and land and let them do the work. There isn't much you could do. 

It kind of makes sense, they know they are putting the wrong foot inside Kashmir and India will get pissed off. They also know Pakistan has historically been pro-US and there is still a lot of influence from the US. So in order to avoid any issues by declassifying all details, they may be managing the risk by not having to deal with India or the US, even at a verbal level.

Don't you think the South China Sea by itself has become a real big issue for them? The US is now putting USN and USAF permanently in the Philippines. So why grab more attention? Audits happen to ensure the party spending the money didn't get cheated on. In this case, it is their money and governance and auditing over it. So let them manage the way they want to (not that Pakistan has a control over it anyway).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

Icarus said:


> I was merely answering the question, I hope it will not be taken out of context.
> 
> As it has been pointed out by the government in the past as well, the progress on the western route is well ahead of schedule and not only will it be the first route to be completed (with the eastern route not expected to be operational in the next three years) but also the first route to be made operational.
> 
> CPEC western route to be completed next year - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> CPEC Western route to be built as dual carriageway
> PM inaugurates CPEC’s western route in Zhob - The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> "It may be added that the CPEC is a 15-year project between Pakistan and China spanning 2015-2030, while the Western route is among the Early Harvest Projects which have to be completed by 2018."- Second Article



The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.

This road which was inaugurated was already on the cards.

National Highway Network Development in Balochistan Project | Asian Development Bank

ADB okays $197m for Balochistan roads | The Banker Pakistan
Economic Affairs Division

Below is a document from 2011 regarding the said project.

http://downloads.nha.gov.pk/nhadocs/icb-n-50-lot-1-rd-wrk.pdf


These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Icarus

TaimiKhan said:


> The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.
> 
> This road which was inaugurated was already on the cards.
> 
> National Highway Network Development in Balochistan Project | Asian Development Bank
> 
> ADB okays $197m for Balochistan roads | The Banker Pakistan
> Economic Affairs Division
> 
> Below is a document from 2011 regarding the said project.
> 
> http://downloads.nha.gov.pk/nhadocs/icb-n-50-lot-1-rd-wrk.pdf
> 
> 
> These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.



Sir that is incorrect, you are citing a document from 2011 at which time this was offered as a proposal but was not implemented, fast forward to 2015 where the same road has been upgraded and is being extended from a simple road restoration project to integration into a new national highway network which will comprise "Route-1" also known as the Western Route from Gwadar>Quetta>DI Khan> Peshawar>Noweshera.
These minutes from the NHA are from before the controversy even began, they should tell the real story:
http://nha.gov.pk/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/250ExB-Meeting-Agenda.pdf

The Route-1 has been given first priority so that the concerns of Balochistan and KPK may be met, and all genuine concerns must be met, it is their right to demand as much but it would be impossible to meet Khattak's demand of fast-tracking all stages of the project for KPK and giving them Tier-2/3 services in the early harvest program.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

TaimiKhan said:


> *The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.*
> 
> These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.



You should read my previous post. You are continuing to post stuff without even understanding the CPEC and what it means or is designed to do. Take a deep breathe and go through my previous posts so you gain some knowledge as your posts clearly show the same emotional stuff we find in IK's followers. Constant questioning to be "right" then listen to the explanation that would answer your questions. CPEC has TWO references. 

1: Commonly known as "the road" or the trade corridor".
2: CPEC as a an over arching PROGRAM (consists of many, many projects) which are designed to create an infrastructure footprint which would then allow different parts of the entire country to link together and optimize areas for trade, business, supply chain and business growth. So like the Metro Lahore, it doesn't have a direct relationship with CPEC (number 1 above, the road), but as the CPEC is a PROGRAM, it indirectly links to it in the future when Hair and others will open plants in Lahore as part of the CPEC. So these are connected to the CPEC program at a higher level, beyond just the road.

3: In the projects that are connected at a higher level under the CPEC program, there are many which will be financed by the WB and by the ADB. In fact, the US and the UK will be helping with some projects which will support future growth when phase I of CPEC goes live. Theoretically, these are supportive projects, but they'd still be listed under the broader CPEC program (not the road). Hope this helps!


----------



## TaimiKhan

Viper0011. said:


> You should read my previous post. You are continuing to post stuff without even understanding the CPEC and what it means or is designed to do. Take a deep breathe and go through my previous posts so you gain some knowledge as your posts clearly show the same emotional stuff we find in IK's followers. Constant questioning to be "right" then listen to the explanation that would answer your questions. CPEC has TWO references.
> 
> 1: Commonly known as "the road" or the trade corridor".
> 2: CPEC as a an over arching PROGRAM (consists of many, many projects) which are designed to create an infrastructure footprint which would then allow different parts of the entire country to link together and optimize areas for trade, business, supply chain and business growth. So like the Metro Lahore, it doesn't have a direct relationship with CPEC (number 1 above, the road), but as the CPEC is a PROGRAM, it indirectly links to it in the future when Hair and others will open plants in Lahore as part of the CPEC. So these are connected to the CPEC program at a higher level, beyond just the road.
> 
> 3: In the projects that are connected at a higher level under the CPEC program, there are many which will be financed by the WB and by the ADB. In fact, the US and the UK will be helping with some projects which will support future growth when phase I of CPEC goes live. Theoretically, these are supportive projects, but they'd still be listed under the broader CPEC program (not the road). Hope this helps!



I have read your posts and i have a very clear understanding of CPEC. Your posts talk about an ideal situation where all is well. And as per our past and present, all is not well. 

And i can tell you with 100% confidence, if initially eastern route is made operational, all investment will go on that side and once that starts, nothing will go towards the area known as western route. I hope we never see that day, but if we did then hope we both are here on this forum and i will ask you that now tell who was right and who was wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## VCheng

Icarus said:


> It would be more rewarding though if this project can be completed with consensus of everybody on board but unfortunately any significant project has to be deferred for petty point scoring. I remember when the Motorway was being built, Benazir Bhutto lead a mass movement against its construction on the political slogan that the poor do not drive sports cars that they need a motorway, this project is for the rich. Just imagine what a stupid campaign that was and now try to realize that this campaign actually held up the motorway for several years before it was finally constructed and since then has become the jugular vein of Pakistan's transport system.





TaimiKhan said:


> I am really amazed after having read your comments Icarus. I never thought you were from that group.
> 
> I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.



Sirs:

Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly _how _will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? _What _will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Leviza

After Careful calculations and keeping in mind the importance of CPEC for all the people of Pakistani , the CPEC route is redefined.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Viper0011.

TaimiKhan said:


> I have read your posts and i have a very clear understanding of CPEC. Your posts talk about an ideal situation where all is well. And as per our past and present, all is not well.
> 
> *And i can tell you with 100% confidence, if initially eastern route is made operational, all investment will go on that side and once that starts, nothing will go towards the area known as western route.* I hope we never see that day, but if we did then hope we both are here on this forum and i will ask you that now tell who was right and who was wrong.




No one said ALL is well. But no one said, holly shiit, the CPEC will ruin the world and will break Pakistan. Its senseless to think that a party in the government, who brought this entire thing to existence doesn't want to broaden their vote bank to other places (even if you took their selfish agenda to remain in power always). So its senseless to think they'll ignore a whole province or two, when you connect to China THROUGH those provinces.

Your 100% confidence is speculation and gossip to me as I know a LOT of actual detail that you have no clue about. So "gossip" can't be 100% or even 10%. I can assure you with 200% FACT based knowledge that the biggest beneficiary and wealth recipients of this program after phase I (around 2018) will be the KPK and Baluchistan.

Now you can remain negative, or learn to be optimistic. World lives on hope. Ever been to an African country? There are hundreds of millions of people who can't eat properly three times a day. But they life off of hope that their next generation will get educated and some will bring in investments and grow their economies, resulting in changing the life the way it exists in there.

You have $ 46 billion worth of INVESTMENT coming in (without having an economy to even qualify for such a large investment), now Pakistan Stock Exchange went live this week, there is estimated $ 120 BILLION worth of investments about to start flowing through it, between now and 2019. Plus Russian, America, and British investments ongoing. So your country went from Bankrupt (almost) in 2012 to having $ 180 BILLION (give or take some) worth of investments in just 5 years. Something that's not happened in the ENTIRE LIFE of Pakistan.

So with $ 170-180 billion worth of $$$$, you can be rest assured this money isn't going to people's bank accounts, its going to industry and Punjab and Sindh can't absorb more than $ 30-40 billion as they already have plenty of industry and land is rare in major hubs. Majority of this money is going to the KPK and Baluchistan. None of you brought in a billion to Pakistan, including the cry babies. So common sense tells me, the people who DID bring such massive amounts of investments in, deserve to complete their vision. You have a right to criticize them when they finish their term in 2018. But don't stop the work, don't derail the progress and don't deny your country from the ONLY and most significant opportunity it has got till her existence!! Have hope and faith, world lives off hope and you ain't no African nation!!


----------



## Spectre

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sirs:
> 
> Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly _how _will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? _What _will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.



Refer the below post to get a crash course on how 180 Billion USD of investment is gonna flow in to Pakistan by 2020. A miraculous 36 Billion USD a year. I wouldn't consider capital inflows in stock market as investment but hey what do I know

Future certainly looks bright and all is hunky dory.



Viper0011. said:


> To be honest with you, just by reading your posts, you are a very negative person in nature. Which is why, you like others who are ALSO negative like IK (guiessing here). Its pure psychology at works, a magnet attracts a magnet. Like minded people attract other like minded people and that includes negative and pessimistic personalities too. I am not meaning this as an offense, just letting you know your psycho-profile.
> 
> No one said ALL is well. But no one said, holly shiit, the CPEC will ruin the world and will break Pakistan. Its senseless to think that a party in the government, who brought this entire thing to existence doesn't want to broaden their vote bank to other places (even if you took their selfish agenda to remain in power always). So its senseless to think they'll ignore a whole province or two, when you connect to China THROUGH those provinces.
> 
> Your 100% confidence is speculation and gossip to me as I know a LOT of actual detail that you have no clue about. So "gossip" can't be 100% or even 10%. I can assure you with 200% FACT based knowledge that the biggest beneficiary and wealth recipients of this program after phase I (around 2018) will be the KPK and Baluchistan.
> 
> Now you can remain negative, or learn to be optimistic. World lives on hope. Ever been to an African country? There are hundreds of millions of people who can't eat properly three times a day. But they life off of hope that their next generation will get educated and some will bring in investments and grow their economies, resulting in changing the life the way it exists in there.
> 
> You have $ 46 billion worth of INVESTMENT coming in (without having an economy to even qualify for such a large investment), now Pakistan Stock Exchange went live this week, there is estimated $ 120 BILLION worth of investments about to start flowing through it, between now and 2019. Plus Russian, America, and British investments ongoing. So your country went from Bankrupt (almost) in 2012 to having $ 180 BILLION (give or take some) worth of investments in just 5 years. Something that's not happened in the ENTIRE LIFE of Pakistan.
> 
> So with $ 170-180 billion worth of $$$$, you can be rest assured this money isn't going to people's bank accounts, its going to industry and Punjab and Sindh can't absorb more than $ 30-40 billion as they already have plenty of industry and land is rare in major hubs. Majority of this money is going to the KPK and Baluchistan. None of you brought in a billion to Pakistan, including the cry babies. So common sense tells me, the people who DID bring such massive amounts of investments in, deserve to complete their vision. You have a right to criticize them when they finish their term in 2018. But don't stop the work, don't derail the progress and don't deny your country from the ONLY and most significant opportunity it has got till her existence!! Have hope and faith, world lives off hope and you ain't no African nation!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly _how _will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? _What _will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.



I don't know where you live in the US. But next time you are on a highway, look around it on either side. It will be the SAME scene around CPEC!!!!! Too many negative people just derailing what they know for a fact is the best thing for Pakistan!!

1) Estimated 50- 100,000 trucks will pass by daily (phase I) giving tolls and gas and services (tire, engine mechanics, etc) across this entire CPEC system. So there is your many billions in tolls and thousands of new mechanics, service, gas stations, truck stops, restaurants, etc, required to serve this transportation system.By phase III, a MILLION plus trucks will go through a day!!

2) New hotels and hospitals will be built across the CPEC corridor where business people, truckers, etc will have to stay, or get to a doctor if they get sick, etc, etc. To support these areas, more doctors will come to this area, more nurses will come, more construction companies will build housing communities.

3) Real estate will become more expensive than today. New homes will be built to support people moving here. More schools, universities, colleges will open up to support people living in these new cities. More banks, grocer stores, malls, police, fire fighters, military bases will open up. 

4) More businesses and labor will move here, specially the one's that are in shipping and distribution business. 
When the population here is growing and this connects to China, Central Russian states and to Iran......where do you think companies like Nestle, Proctor and Gamble and others will open up their distribution centers? Remember, this area will get a lot of tax incentives for the businesses to move here. Same thing the US, the UK and others do. 

5) The Chinese have signed MOU's already, where they'll setup Huwaei, Hair and other electronics and manufacturing giants to build assemble and ship products DIRECTLY from CPEC areas / industry hubs to the destination country. This will revolutionize Pakistan's job market and industry by itself!!

A good comparison of what is about to happen here, is Texas. Texas has attracted the largest business migration from across the US into Texas based on her superior infrastructure around Dallas and Austin area. They have cities filled with all kinds of industries and the economy is stable. Even oil crash has no impact on Texas's economy. The CPEC is being built on the SAME concept. It will be an economy of its own!!

Good thing is, since this is all going to be brand new, everything will be computerized and on the record, meaning no one can evade taxes like older business have been doing. So that alone will increase your tax payers by 200% over the next 5-10 years, providing serious amounts of cash to help finance other public welfare projects and get off the loan wagon!!

This new CPEC related economy, will actually be stronger and more profitable for Pakistan as a state, and without any impact from other countries economy, etc, as you are connecting to many countries directly. Do you have more questions? I have a feeling that you'll still come up with some more negativity!!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Refer the below post to get a crash course on how 180 Billion USD of investment is gonna flow in to Pakistan by 2020. A miraculous 36 Billion USD a year. *I wouldn't consider capital inflows in stock market as investment but hey what do I know*
> 
> Future certainly looks bright and all is hunky dory.



What's a "capital influx" when you buy stocks....what is it called? Investing into Securities!!!! "INVESTING" is the key word. So Capital Inflows are really "investments" (and have always been). Your jealousy doesn't change the fact 

Also, when HCL or other got billions of investments (or "capital influx" as you called it) what do they do with that moeny? Invest into OTHER projects to grow their businesses and then grow the stocks so the people providing "capital influx" can gain profit on the stock. So the $ 120 billion through the stock marekt will ALSO go into MORE projects which will grow Pakistani businesses.

Lack of common sense mixed with jealousy much???? Yea, it'll burn for a LONG time!! Sorry.

Allow me to show you how Pakistan's stock market related funds are doing, and I am listing what was available BEFORE the actual stock market started this week. From this point on, things will ONLY go higher and better (above Google, Amazon and others due to top returns over the past three years, since the current government took the office). The lowest stock price is $ 1124.21 per stock and highest is like $ 2901.00.

*Symbol* *Name* *Last Trade* *Type* *Industry/Category* *Exchange*
^DJSAFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Total R $ 2,895.17 Last Trade Index DJI

^DJSAFPK Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Index $ 1,716.28 Last Trade Index DJI

^DWPKDT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,839.98 Last Trade Index DJI

^DJSFPKTR Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 2,901.11 Last Trade Index DJI

^DWPKD Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,124.21 Last Trade Index DJI

^DJSFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 1,602.65 Last Trade Index DJI

WIPAK.L FTSE Pakistan Index $ 2,133.98 Last Trade Index LSE

^DWPK Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,964.41 Last Trade Index DJI

^DWPKT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 3,215.11 Last Trade Index DJI

@Icarus @Syed.Ali.Haider @TaimiKhan @saiyan0321 @Ammara Chaudhry @mr42O @Leader @Jaanbaz @Jango : Guys - check out the above Pakistani securities and their last trade value as of yesterday. If this isn't performance, I don't know what is. 

Google is trading at $705, Amazon is at $ 584, GE is at $ 28.02, Lockheed Martin is at $ 214.99, Apple is at $ 97.39, and ALL the above Pakistani ETF's are WAY over all these top US stocks!!!!! 

I hope this explains to you how the entire globe is looking at Pakistani market that they are willing to pay 3 times the cost of Google and Apple to hold Pakistani ETF's due to extreme profits the Pakistani market has been providing!! And these were the same people / financial institutes who declared Pakistan bankrupt in 2012!!

I think this ends the debate IMO as to the future of Pakistan from an investments and CPEC's related growth, and the current government's efforts to boost Pakistan's economy.

The journey is about to take Pakistan right below Australia in the next 10+ years. Just watch

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
1


----------



## Neutron

A true story
There were three ships which were nearby when the Titanic sunk.

One of them was known as the Sampson. It was 7 miles away from the Titanic and they saw the white flares signaling danger, but because the crew had been hunting seals illegally and didn’t want to be caught, they turned and went the opposite direction away from the Titanic. This ship represents us and people like us if we are so busy looking inward at our own sin and lives that we can’t recognize when someone else is in need.

The next ship was the Californian. This ship was only 14 miles away from the Titanic, but they were surrounded by ice fields and the captain looked out and saw the white flares, but because the conditions weren’t favorable and it was dark, he decided to go back to bed and wait until morning. The crew tried to convince themselves that nothing was happening. This ship represents those of us who say I can’t do anything now. The conditions aren’t right for it and so we wait until conditions are perfect before going out.

The last ship was the Carpathia. This ship was actually headed in a southern direction 58 miles away from the Titanic when they heard the distress cries over the radio. The captain of this ship knelt down, prayed to God for direction and then turned the ship around and went full steam ahead through the ice fields. This was the ship that saved the 705 survivors of the Titanic.

When the captain looked back at the ice fields they had come through, he said Someone else hands must have been at the helm of this ship! This ship represents those who would pray to God for direction and then go without hesitation.
+++
Life whispers in your soul and speaks to your heart. We need to take time to listen and to these whispers and take heed.

My take: Pakistan needs Carpathia.. Got plenty of other types around.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
6


----------



## Icarus

TaimiKhan said:


> I have read your posts and i have a very clear understanding of CPEC. Your posts talk about an ideal situation where all is well. And as per our past and present, all is not well.
> 
> And i can tell you with 100% confidence, if initially eastern route is made operational, all investment will go on that side and once that starts, nothing will go towards the area known as western route. I hope we never see that day, but if we did then hope we both are here on this forum and i will ask you that now tell who was right and who was wrong.



Sir Inshallah the Western Route will be the first to be operationalized provided that the project is not halted by this political immaturity that is being displayed by our leaders.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sirs:
> 
> Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly _how _will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? _What _will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.



First phase is to establish Gwadar as a trading outpost and as a transit point. Then the haulage of goods to and from China, intended for Africa, Europe and Middle East will be routed through the CPEC which is a significant portion of the global trade volume, the duties off that should be a significant source of income in itself and then subsequently this trade impetus, theoretically speaking, should spur more investment. Its an ambitious goal but its something to work towards.


----------



## VCheng

Icarus said:


> First phase is to establish Gwadar as a trading outpost and as a transit point. Then the haulage of goods to and from China, intended for Africa, Europe and Middle East will be routed through the CPEC which is a significant portion of the global trade volume, the duties off that should be a significant source of income in itself and then subsequently this trade impetus, theoretically speaking, should spur more investment. Its an ambitious goal but its something to work towards.



But my question is precisely this: what "goods" are these? Who is producing them and where are they going? Chinese goods already have great transportation networks originating from its eastern seaboard.


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> What's a "capital influx" when you buy stocks....what is it called? Investing into Securities!!!! "INVESTING" is the key word. So Capital Inflows are really "investments" have always been. Your jealousy doesn't change the fact
> 
> Also, when HCL or other got billions of investments (or "capital influx" as you called it) what do they do with that moeny? Invest into OTHER projects to grow their businesses and then grow the stocks so the people providing "capital influx" can gain profit on the stock. So the $ 120 billion through the stock marekt will ALSO go into MORE projects which will grow Pakistani businesses.
> 
> Lack of common sense mixed with jealousy much???? Yea, it'll burn for a LONG time!! Sorry.
> 
> Allow me to show you how Pakistan's stock market related funds are doing, and I am listing what was available BEFORE the actual start market started this week. From this point on, things will ONLY go higher and better (above Google, Amazon and others due to top returns over the past three years, since the current government took the office). The lowest stock price is $ 1124.21 per stock and highest is like $ 2901.00.
> 
> *Symbol* *Name* *Last Trade* *Type* *Industry/Category* *Exchange*
> ^DJSAFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Total R $ 2,895.17 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSAFPK Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Index $ 1,716.28 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKDT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,839.98 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSFPKTR Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 2,901.11 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKD Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,124.21 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 1,602.65 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> WIPAK.L FTSE Pakistan Index $ 2,133.98 Last Trade Index LSE
> 
> ^DWPK Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,964.41 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 3,215.11 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> @Icarus @Syed.Ali.Haider @TaimiKhan @saiyan0321 @Ammara Chaudhry @mr42O @Leader @Jaanbaz @Jango : Guys - check out the above Pakistani securities and their last trade value as of yesterday. If this isn't performance, I don't know what is. Google is trading at $705, Amazon is at $ 584, GE is at $ 28.02, Lockheed Martin is at 214.99, Apple is at 97.39 and ALL the above from Pakistan are WAY over all these top US stocks!!!!! I hope this explains to you how the entire globe is looking at Pakistani market that they are willing to pay 3 times the cost of Google and Apple to hold Pakistani EFT's due to extreme profits Pakistani market has been providing!!And these were the same people who declared Pakistan bankrupt in 2012!!
> 
> I think this ends the debate IMO as to the future of Pakistan from an investments and CPEC's related growth. The journey is about to take Pakistan right below Australia in the next 10+ years. Just watch



@Icarus it is indeed sad to see that you have rated the quoted positively considering this post doesn't even have even an iota of financial logic.

FYI investment in stock markets or HCL in this example are secondary investment. The company in these cases doesn't get a single pence out of this "investment" the gain/losses are shared by the traders who are often themselves foreign institutions . The money which comes in is easy money with no lock in period like in FDI.

All traders are looking to* make a quick buck and capitalize on the low base*. As soon as they deem that the stocks are over-valued they will bail out. Real investors in stock market who bring in certain stability are domestic retail investors.

We have all seen that BSE/NSE or for that matter Shanghai Stock Markets suffer from* flight to quality* in turbulent times. In such cases the losses are often born by small local investors. Companies as I have earlier stated remain divorced too an extent from both the secondary investments which* constitute majority of stock market activity* and pull outs.

The thing which could have been beneficial is not quick and easy money in stock exchanges but *funding of start-ups, Foreign Direct Investment and greenfield investment*. Thus Chinese investment is Gold in this regard and I would consider the 46 Billion out of 180 Billion as Kosher. 

_The only real investment happens in STOCK MARKET are in primary securities like IPO's or follow on offers which are once in a blue moon event for any company. _

Anyway if you remember from our earlier conversations I have nothing against Pakistan - infact I whole heartedly support it's economic development and prosperity as that would give Pakistan a substantial stake in peace process b/w our countries. I just cant stand the blatant ignorance and smug arrogance on display. It is better to be realistic and plan for the future based on ground realities than indulging in wool-gathering.

@Syed.Ali.Haider @rainman @Nihonjin1051 your views on the veracity of my post as you guys have experience in financial markets as I assume.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
3 | Like Like:
1


----------



## Icarus

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> But my question is precisely this: what "goods" are these? Who is producing them and where are they going? Chinese goods already have great transportation networks originating from its eastern seaboard.



Indeed, however the eastern ports are not suitable for traffic towards ME, Africa and Europe when a land route through Pakistan can cut the travelling time by up to two-thirds and correspondingly the travel time as well. As for the "Products", they include Chinese exports intended for said region as well as fossil fuels as imports for West and Central China.


----------



## VCheng

Spectre said:


> @Syed.Ali.Haider @rainman @Nihonjin1051 your views on the veracity of my post.



Just look at the historical trends, returns and volume of trade for all those funds quoted and the truth is before all to see. 

50k trucks a day is a truck every two seconds. A million trucks is 11 trucks per second. 36 billion dollars of annual investment is 3 billion per month.

That is a lot.





(Of BS.)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## tested

Neutron said:


> A true story
> There were three ships which were nearby when the Titanic sunk.
> 
> One of them was known as the Sampson. It was 7 miles away from the Titanic and they saw the white flares signaling danger, but because the crew had been hunting seals illegally and didn’t want to be caught, they turned and went the opposite direction away from the Titanic. This ship represents us and people like us if we are so busy looking inward at our own sin and lives that we can’t recognize when someone else is in need.
> 
> The next ship was the Californian. This ship was only 14 miles away from the Titanic, but they were surrounded by ice fields and the captain looked out and saw the white flares, but because the conditions weren’t favorable and it was dark, he decided to go back to bed and wait until morning. The crew tried to convince themselves that nothing was happening. This ship represents those of us who say I can’t do anything now. The conditions aren’t right for it and so we wait until conditions are perfect before going out.
> 
> The last ship was the Carpathia. This ship was actually headed in a southern direction 58 miles away from the Titanic when they heard the distress cries over the radio. The captain of this ship knelt down, prayed to God for direction and then turned the ship around and went full steam ahead through the ice fields. This was the ship that saved the 705 survivors of the Titanic.
> 
> When the captain looked back at the ice fields they had come through, he said Someone else hands must have been at the helm of this ship! This ship represents those who would pray to God for direction and then go without hesitation.
> +++
> Life whispers in your soul and speaks to your heart. We need to take time to listen and to these whispers and take heed.
> 
> My take: Pakistan needs Carpathia.. Got plenty of other types around.


Extremely well written


----------



## VCheng

Icarus said:


> Indeed, however the eastern ports are not suitable for traffic towards ME, Africa and Europe when a land route through Pakistan can cut the travelling time by up to two-thirds and correspondingly the travel time as well. As for the "Products", they include Chinese exports intended for said region as well as fossil fuels as imports for West and Central China.



Sir, that would work only if the goods were time-critical and if the cost for transport is competitive. And oil would need its own infrastructure that will likely be not economically feasible for many reasons.



tested said:


> Extremely well written



Sir Rostron was not a Muslim, was he?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Spectre

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Just look at the historical trends, returns and volume of trade for all those funds quoted and the truth is before all to see.
> 
> 50k trucks a day is a truck every two seconds. A million trucks is 11 trucks per second. 36 billion dollars of investment is 3 billion per month.
> 
> That is a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Of BS.)



Even discounting historing trends of returns and volumes - Even assuming they are providing stellar returns and are blue chip securities - it still doesn't help but see the complete ignorance on display when the person claiming to be know all in such matters states that these investments would fuel Pakistan's growth.

In most stable of Markets like US and UK there is at best a tangential correlation b/w stock markets and economy in developing markets like India and China that correlation is even more tenuous and in Pakistan where the Stock Market is just in it's infancy it is laughable to presume that the Stock Markets would fuel growth even if the "Bulls are reigning Supreme"

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## tested

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sir, that would work only if the goods were time-critical and if the cost for transport is competitive. And oil would need its own infrastructure that will likely be not economically feasible for many reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir Rostron was not a Muslim, was he?


No, but we are all humans are we not. All capable of good and all capable of bad.



Icarus said:


> Indeed, however the eastern ports are not suitable for traffic towards ME, Africa and Europe when a land route through Pakistan can cut the travelling time by up to two-thirds and correspondingly the travel time as well. As for the "Products", they include Chinese exports intended for said region as well as fossil fuels as imports for West and Central China.


Icarus, I will say this and only this much , because I am a person of analysis...and because me being an Indian automatically means that if I say its 'day' outside, Pakistanis would make it out to be 'night'.

Take it for what you feel it is worth based on a shallow analysis.

1. The *overwhelming *majority of Chinese factories are located on or near their Eastern seaboard.
2. The overwhelming consumers/population density in China are in the Eastern half.
----
3. Pakistan is connected to China at its Western most tip.
4. The distance between where Pakistan is connected to China to its Eastern most tip is roughly 4000kms(I increased it a little for the sake of ease of comprehension)
5. The length of Pakistan from its Northern tip to its port in Gwadar is roughly around 2300 kms

Therefore for any goods to be transported from Chinese factories to Africa would have to traverse a road distance of around 6000 kms give or take.

The terrain between Western China and Eastern China is not naturally advantageous.
-----

6. Cost of sea transportation is around half that of road transportation per kilometer.
7. Change of mode of transport adds to costs and delays and companies prefer not to do it- there will be a change of transport mode as goods will have to be shifted to ships at Gwadar.
8. Chinese ports are the most efficient ports in the world and there is an existing eco system of ports and factories in Eastern China.

Goods (the kind that China really ships out to the world) are highly price sensitive, not _highly_ time sensitive.


That said.

There are many advantages to be had if Pakistan is able to do it...and *if successful it will make CPEC all that Pakistanis want it to be:*

1. Convince Chinese companies to shift their factories to CPEC routes (with labour costs being far lower in Pakistan and other advantages)
This ranges from electronics to textiles!
2. Build an oil pipeline (oil can be pumped across vast distances) and this would be a sure shot earner.
3. Build a dedicated freight line from Gwadar to Eastern China.

Best of luck in the endeavor.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> @Icarus it is indeed sad to see that you have rated the quoted positively considering this post doesn't even have even an iota of financial logic.
> 
> FYI investment in stock markets or HCL in this example are secondary investment. The company in these cases doesn't get a single pence out of this "investment" the gain/losses are shared by the traders who are often themselves foreign institutions . The money which comes in is easy money with no lock in period like in FDI.
> 
> @Syed.Ali.Haider @rainman @Nihonjin1051 your views on the veracity of my post as you guys have experience in financial markets as I assume.



Hurt???!!!! Bring facts, not gossip. Ever worked with a team to take a company public? I have!!!!! Ever worked at the Wall Street? I have!!!! In fact as I type, on various monitors in front of me, are showing me market actions and other details from Asia, to Europe to the US!! So these investments and larger business strategy is my domain. In the next couple of years, I'll be TEACHING business strategy to the future generations of business pioneers at some top business school!! Find someone to reason with me factually and then I can respond to lower quality emotional posts of yours!!

The post I wrote had perfect content in there. I listed Pakistani EFT's which you can check yourself on google, against top Western companies. I listed their last trade value vs. Google and Apples of the world as of yesterday. And you didn't see these ultimate FACTS, you just wanted to cry instead!!!!

And I can tell how "experienced" you are. If all you think about the stocks as a "broker" trying to make a buck or two!! This is capital money coming to a business based on their performance, profit to share holders (called Share Holder's Equity). And when you do an IPO, your shares are sold, the company gets investments and the reason others want to put their hard earned money under a business in terms of stock, is they expect the business to use the stock money and grow and be MORE profitable. In turn, increasing stock values and distributions per stock in the future!! Google as an example was way below $ 100 not too many years ago. Its not over $ 700 per stock!!



tested said:


> *1. The overwhelming majority of Chinese factories are located on or near their Eastern seaboard.
> 2. The overwhelming consumers/population density in China are in the Eastern half.*
> ----
> 3. Pakistan is connected to China at its Western most tip.
> 4. The distance between where Pakistan is connected to China to its Eastern most tip is roughly 4000kms(I increased it a little for the sake of ease of comprehension)
> 5. The length of Pakistan from its Northern tip to its port in Gwadar is roughly around 2300 kms
> .



The first two are the MAIN reason for the CPEC. The Chinese shippings take month or more to get to destinations (certain destinations) through Sea routes. Through the Western China to the ME, and Central Russian states, you cut this distance down to days!!

Plus, the Chinese businesses are planning MASSIVE investments and expansion in the Western China to grow that region (350 million + people) and that will happen primarily from the CPEC. From Eastern ports to Western China, the distance is too much and a lot more expensive. Plus you still can't connect China with Russian states and have a port close by. CPEC through Gawader does that. These same business expansions will create business hubs in Pakistan also, to assemble (and build some products too), as well as setup distribution centers. So its a win win situation for Pakistan, no matter which Arm you use to grab your ear.


----------



## tested

Viper0011. said:


> So its a win win situation for Pakistan, no matter which Arm you use to grab your ear.


Its a win-win without a doubt. It was the magnitude that was under discussion.


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> Hurt???!!!! Bring facts, not gossip. Ever worked with a team to take a company public? I have!!!!! Ever worked at the Wall Street? I have!!!! In fact as I type, on various monitors in front of me, are showing me market actions and other details from Asia, to Europe to the US!! So these investments and larger business strategy is my domain. In the next couple of years, I'll be TEACHING business strategy to the future generations of business pioneers at some top business school!! Find someone to reason with me factually and then I can respond to lower quality emotional posts of yours!!
> 
> The post I wrote had perfect content in there. I listed Pakistani EFT's which you can check yourself on google, against top Western companies. I listed their last trade value vs. Google and Apples of the world as of yesterday. And you didn't see these ultimate FACTS, you just wanted to cry instead!!!!
> 
> And I can tell how "experienced" you are. If all you think about the stocks as a "broker" trying to make a buck or two!! This is capital money coming to a business based on their performance, profit to share holders (called Share Holder's Equity). And when you do an IPO, your shares are sold, the company gets investments and the reason others want to put their hard earned money under a business in terms of stock, is they expect the business to use the stock money and grow and be MORE profitable. In turn, increasing stock values and distributions per stock in the future!! Google as an example was way below $ 100 not too many years ago. Its not over $ 700 per stock!!



Below is my complete post which you haven't quoted. Please read it again and you would understand where you went wrong.

From the content of your posts I doubt you have any real world financial experience let alone qualifications for teaching financial investments in ivy league colleges.

I have clearly stated that IPO is an exception but it happens only once in company's lifetime. 99.99% of all activity in stock market brings no money to the company.

The other point is that you cannot compare two stocks just based on prices they are trading, you simply cannot. It is like comparing apples to oranges. 

I stock having a market price of 100 USD can be more valuable than stock having market price of 1000 USD depending on number of shares outstanding. There are various factors which come into play like share splits etc If you cannot understand this basic financial fact than I simply urge you to enrol yourself in community college to understand this and stop making a mockery out of yourself.
_
@@Icarus it is indeed sad to see that you have rated the quoted positively considering this post doesn't even have even an iota of financial logic.

FYI investment in stock markets or HCL in this example are secondary investment. The company in these cases doesn't get a single pence out of this "investment" the gain/losses are shared by the traders who are often themselves foreign institutions . The money which comes in is easy money with no lock in period like in FDI.

All traders are looking to* make a quick buck and capitalize on the low base*. As soon as they deem that the stocks are over-valued they will bail out. Real investors in stock market who bring in certain stability are domestic retail investors.

We have all seen that BSE/NSE or for that matter Shanghai Stock Markets suffer from* flight to quality* in turbulent times. In such cases the losses are often born by small local investors. Companies as I have earlier stated remain divorced too an extent from both the secondary investments which* constitute majority of stock market activity* and pull outs.

The thing which could have been beneficial is not quick and easy money in stock exchanges but *funding of start-ups, Foreign Direct Investment and greenfield investment*. Thus Chinese investment is Gold in this regard and I would consider the 46 Billion out of 180 Billion as Kosher. 

The only real investment happens in STOCK MARKET are in primary securities like IPO's or follow on offers which are once in a blue moon event for any company. 

Anyway if you remember from our earlier conversations I have nothing against Pakistan - infact I whole heartedly support it's economic development and prosperity as that would give Pakistan a substantial stake in peace process b/w our countries. I just cant stand the blatant ignorance and smug arrogance on display. It is better to be realistic and plan for the future based on ground realities than indulging in wool-gathering.

@@Syed.Ali.Haider@@rainman@@Nihonjin1051 your views on the veracity of my post as you guys have experience in financial markets as I assume.

Source: C for CPEC, Callousness and Controversy | Page 5_

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
2


----------



## ghilzai

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You must be really dumb to say something like that.. And I mean really retarded... Do I need to list military chiefs and presidents like Ayub,Yahya,Nur Khan,Hamid Gul,Asad Durrani,Waheed Kakar,Abbas Khattak,Asghar Khan,Hakeemullah Khan Durani,Jamal A Khan,Farooq Feroze Khan.. etc etc..(to name a few mil chiefs) Who lead the military as "unequal" inferior military chiefs & 3 star generals!
> 
> 
> Guess who was called Reds Shirts .. And which party is a heir to KK? .. You are either very foolish or just another sad little troll.
> 
> @farhan_9909 @Khan_patriot. @Pukhtoon. @TaimiKhan. @ghilzai. @T-Faz. @Orakzai. When are you guys succeeding from evil Pakistan!
> 
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch. Is this guy just dumb or a troll ?



Pakistan is our country, our heart, soul and our religion, we are proud and patriotic Pakistanis, even if everyone else gives up on the idea of Pakistan we will always will be Pakistan and Pakistanis.

We might have difference of an opinion with the state but we loyal sons of the soil, never have I been discriminated by anyone based on my ethnicity.

And me am a tribal and feel like that and imagine how an ordinary pukhtoon feels.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Lavrentiy

One has to be youthiya to believe that the Chinese would invest in these God forsaken areas of KPK and Baluchistan.

In addition, if CPEC gets going, Nawaz will win the 2018 elections with 200% surety. Imran Khan knows this and he has to counter it.


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Below is my complete post which you haven't quoted. Please read it again and you would understand where you went wrong.
> 
> From the content of your posts I doubt you have any real world financial experience let alone qualifications for teaching financial investments in ivy league colleges.



Like I said, I gave you my credentials. Establish yours. I am not here to entertain gossip on serious matters that require serious expertise and a ton of other related expertise to become an expert in this industry. There are plenty of fan boys like you on here with a different educational background. Just by investing a thousand or a million in the stock market, you don't become a broker or a strategist!! Similarly, just by knowing you can buy Aspirin from the Pharmacy, you don't become a doctor. Enough said. 

My suggestion to you and others (respectfully), this entire economy and CPEC thing, is WAY over you guys head. And its not a bad thing, just that you guys specialize in other things. So in which case, instead of "gossip" or spreading rumors. How about you sit, watch and enjoy the show and see Pakistan growing?? I like that idea. I can focus on business that way, instead of countering crap-shoot posts on here.



Lavrentiy said:


> *In addition, if CPEC gets going, Nawaz will win the 2018 elections with 200% surety. Imran Khan knows this and he has to counter it*.



He is countering it, but on what price? The price of an entire nation's GROWTH and OPPORTUNITY? That, to me should be treason straight up. Pakistan FINALLY is becoming peaceful, and growing and isn't considered a failed state. 

In fact, everyone wants a piece of the growing pie (including INDIA!!!!). So anyone who stands between Pakistan and her nation's economic growth and prosperity should be charged with treason. Clean up the mess once for all. Bring positive leaders who actually WORK and bring investments and growth. Not bullshiit to an already weak and confused nation!!


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> Like I said, I gave you my credentials. Establish yours. I am not here to entertain gossip on serious matters that require serious expertise and a ton of other related expertise to become an expert in this industry. There are plenty of fan boys like you on here with a different educational background. Just by investing a thousand or a million in the stock market, you don't become a broker or a strategist!! Similarly, just by knowing you can buy Aspirin from the Pharmacy, you don't become a doctor. Enough said.
> My suggestion to you and others (respectfully), this entire economy and CPEC thing, is WAY over you guys head. And its not a bad thing, just that you guys specialize in other things. So in which case, instead of "gossip" or spreading rumors. How about you sit, watch and enjoy the show and see Pakistan growing?? I like that idea. I can focus on business that way, instead of countering crap-shoot posts on here.



So running away from the argument are we? you dont have any more BS to post to contradict my arguments? 

You have not provided any proof of your credential - as i said the level of ignorance you have displayed makes it ample clear that your nothing but a LIAR. I have not offered my credentials as I feel my arguments speak for themselves without any need for padding in form of fictitious credentials.

Henceforth try not to speak out of your depth. 

Good Day sir.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mr.robot

Viper0011. said:


> What's a "capital influx" when you buy stocks....what is it called? Investing into Securities!!!! "INVESTING" is the key word. So Capital Inflows are really "investments" have always been. Your jealousy doesn't change the fact
> 
> Also, when HCL or other got billions of investments (or "capital influx" as you called it) what do they do with that moeny? Invest into OTHER projects to grow their businesses and then grow the stocks so the people providing "capital influx" can gain profit on the stock. So the $ 120 billion through the stock marekt will ALSO go into MORE projects which will grow Pakistani businesses.
> 
> Lack of common sense mixed with jealousy much???? Yea, it'll burn for a LONG time!! Sorry.
> 
> Allow me to show you how Pakistan's stock market related funds are doing, and I am listing what was available BEFORE the actual start market started this week. From this point on, things will ONLY go higher and better (above Google, Amazon and others due to top returns over the past three years, since the current government took the office). The lowest stock price is $ 1124.21 per stock and highest is like $ 2901.00.
> 
> *Symbol* *Name* *Last Trade* *Type* *Industry/Category* *Exchange*
> ^DJSAFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Total R $ 2,895.17 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSAFPK Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Index $ 1,716.28 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKDT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,839.98 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSFPKTR Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 2,901.11 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKD Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,124.21 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DJSFPKT Dow Jones SAFE Pakistan Titans $ 1,602.65 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> WIPAK.L FTSE Pakistan Index $ 2,133.98 Last Trade Index LSE
> 
> ^DWPK Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 1,964.41 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> ^DWPKT Dow Jones Pakistan Total Stock $ 3,215.11 Last Trade Index DJI
> 
> @Icarus @Syed.Ali.Haider @TaimiKhan @saiyan0321 @Ammara Chaudhry @mr42O @Leader @Jaanbaz @Jango : Guys - check out the above Pakistani securities and their last trade value as of yesterday. If this isn't performance, I don't know what is. Google is trading at $705, Amazon is at $ 584, GE is at $ 28.02, Lockheed Martin is at 214.99, Apple is at 97.39 and ALL the above from Pakistan are WAY over all these top US stocks!!!!! I hope this explains to you how the entire globe is looking at Pakistani market that they are willing to pay 3 times the cost of Google and Apple to hold Pakistani *EFT's* due to extreme profits Pakistani market has been providing!!And these were the same people who declared Pakistan bankrupt in 2012!!
> 
> I think this ends the debate IMO as to the future of Pakistan from an investments and CPEC's related growth. The journey is about to take Pakistan right below Australia in the next 10+ years. Just watch



 Dear stock analysis, business expert and future professor, first learn it is ETF not EFT. If you still have the courage to comapre Pakistan's ETFs with likes of Google and Apple , kindly do share trading volume of these ETFs as you must be sitting in front of multiple monitors observing stocks from US to Asia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> So running away from the argument are we? you dont have any more BS to post to contradict my arguments?
> 
> You have not provided any proof of your credential - as i said the level of ignorance you have displayed makes it ample clear that your nothing but a LIAR. I have not offered my credentials as I feel my arguments speak for themselves without any need for padding in form of fictitious credentials.
> 
> Henceforth try not to speak out of your depth.
> 
> Good Day sir.



No one's running away. I asked you two things and you ignored them because the answer is a no:

1) Ever worked with a team to take a company public? I told you I have!!
2) Ever worked at Wall Street and in Corporate Strategy and Economic Development? I do this for a living!!

3) If you like my references, and say there was a $ 50,000 bet on here. I would LOVE to make you call Mr. De'souza. (Francisco De'spuza, CEO of Cognizant and a friend). He would LOVE to tell you who developed their corporate strategy for the US based operations . More needed? How does Accenture and Dell sound to you  

So now back to the topic, I am not running away. I just don't want to waste time with people that look at economy and stocks to make a few bucks on the side and have no real credentials. Everyone can read books and write formulas (we've had many of these discussions), but the ones in the field are the ones making it happen!!


----------



## Spectre

@Icarus Kindly see @viper0011 posting pattern in the last 3 or 4 posts. He is selectively quoting me - he is conveniently omitting all the areas where I have proved him to be wrong and just quoting excerpts and then tangentially posting irrelevant stuff

It is extremely frustrating to indulge in constructive debate with this Chap as all he seems to be an expert is in claiming outlandish qualifications.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

epicname said:


> Dear stock analysis, business expert and future professor, first learn it is ETF not EFT. If you still have the courage to comapre Pakistan's ETFs with likes of Google and Apple , kindly do share trading volume of these ETFs as you must be sitting in front of multiple monitors observing stocks from US to Asia



Hey man, what a catch. Ever wrote on an IPAD touch screen, watching 4 monitors and being in a conference call with having thick fingers? Yea, typos do happen. Sorry, we are all humans. But, on the other side, you never responded to anything factually, I can cry and write personal stuff too. But what good is it for? Just shows one's tiny little mental capacity like your post represents yours!!



Spectre said:


> @Icarus Kindly see @viper0011 posting pattern in the last 3 or 4 posts. He is selectively quoting me - he is conveniently omitting all the areas where I have proved him to be wrong and just quoting excerpts and then tangentially posting irrelevant stuff
> 
> It is extremely frustrating to indulge in constructive debate with this Chap as all he seems to be an expert in claiming outlandish qualifications.



Oh poor cup cake!!!!! You are so hurt!!!!! Well, don't cry. Eat a pie. If you don't like the content or the person.....don't indulge in a conversation with me.

By the way, in the last message, you were going to show me credentials. Here, you are calling Mods for help to save your hurt emotions....where are the manly, man, proud credentials I was waiting on??


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> No one's running away. I asked you two things and you ignored them because the answer is a no:
> 
> 1) Ever worked with a team to take a company public? I told you I have!!
> 2) Ever worked at Wall Street and in Corporate Strategy and Economic Development? I do this for a living!!
> 
> 3) If you like my references, and say there was a $ 50,000 bet on here. I would LOVE to make you call Mr. De'souza. (Francisco De'spuza, CEO of Cognizant and a friend). He would LOVE to tell you who developed their corporate strategy for the US based operations . More needed? How does Accenture and Dell sound to you
> 
> So now back to the topic, I am not running away. I just don't want to waste time with people that look at economy and stocks to make a few bucks on the side and have no real credentials. Everyone can read books and write formulas (we've had many of these discussions), but the ones in the field are the ones making it happen!!



I have clearly stated that I don't like to make give out information where it is not relevant but be assured I am not speaking out of ignorance or half understood market phenomenons. Prove my below arguments to be wrong where I have contradicted you and dont obfuscate the issue 

1. You cannot compare stocks and securities based just on trading price.
2. Most of the activities in stock market don't bring money to the company exception being IPO which happens once in company's lifetime
3. Most capital inflow in stock market is looking to make a quick buck not for long term investment. 
4. Infant stock markets like Pakistan Stock Exchange are extremely unstable and are not correlated to economy of Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mr.robot

Viper0011. said:


> Hey man, what a catch. Every wrote on an IPAD watching 4 monitors and being in a conference call? Yea, typos do happen. Sorry, we are all humans. But, on the other side, you never responded to anything factually, I can cry and write personal stuff too. But what good is it for? Just shows one's tiny little mental capacity like your post represents yours!!


I will respond factually but I am giving you the opprotunity to share trade volume of these ETFs as you must have exact information regarding trade volume as you are working in Wall Street.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> Oh poor cup cake!!!!! You are so hurt!!!!! Well, don't cry. Eat a pie. If you don't like the content or the person.....don't indulge in a conversation with me.
> 
> By the way, in the last message, you were going to show me credentials. Here, you are calling Mods for help to save your hurt emotions....where are the manly, man, proud credentials I was waiting on??



I have never told you that I will show you my credentials - Put simply I have stated nothing proprietory which would require such exposition. All my arguments can be understood and verified by a basic Fin -101 student. When I need to put across some dense theory then I will state my qualification to back my theory up. As of now I am just stating facts. 

You dont need to prove that You were a Portfolio Manager for Merrill Lynch, Blackstone and Mizuho for stating 2+2=4

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> I have clearly stated that I don't like to make give out information where it is not relevant but be assured I am not speaking out of ignorance or half understood market phenomenons. Prove my below arguments to be wrong where I have contradicted you and dont obfuscate the issue
> 
> 1. You cannot compare stocks and securities based just on trading price.
> 2. Most of the activities in stock market don't bring money to the company exception being IPO which happens once in company's lifetime
> 3. Most capital inflow in stock market is looking to make a quick buck not for long term investment.
> 4. Infant stock markets like Pakistan Stock Exchange are extremely unstable and are not correlated to economy of Pakistan.



So you are telling me the Western investors paying thousands for each Security I listed for Pakistan are pure stupid and have freaking clue??  . And YOU, somehow, having NO experience in this arena, are smarter than people who've been running economies and securities across the globe for like 80 years   !!

So per the bullet points above in your post, these people, who invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Pakistani securities, decided to pay three to five times the money to LOSE money....and while they can otherwise pay to buy Google, Apple, GE and other securities much cheaper, and all inside US and more secure apparently???? 

Your logic is as small as a Child age 4 who gets a first Space Ship toy and thinks the Moon is as high as his hand can go in the air!! If you couldn't understand numbers I provided from the Dow and other places, the actual physical fact, there is nothing I can provide to you which would help you. Go on writing silly posts. I think I am done. You can make sense out of logic, but you can't make sense out of rants and opinions without facts!!


----------



## WaLeEdK2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pashtuns or any Pak ethnic group doesn't need to prove or have a certified to show their patriotism ..! Fuk that.. That disgusts me.
> 
> As for this guy .. I have a feeling that this guy is either Indian or a pseudo intellectual type.. Like that turd "tareek fateeh" clown.
> 
> I just tagged you guys to embarrass him.


If you go on YouTube, there's a channel about him . Indians are desperate lol. But I would like YouTube to be allowed in Pakistan. I can't stand Indian comments everywhere on Pakistani videos.


----------



## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> I have never told you that I will show you my credentials - Put simply I have stated nothing proprietory which would require such exposition. All my arguments can be understood and verified by a basic Fin -101 student. When I need to put across some dense theory then I will state my qualification to back my theory up. As of now I am just stating facts.
> 
> You dont need to prove that You were a Portfolio Manager for Merrill Lynch, Blackstone and Mizuho for stating 2+2=4



You just told me how high your brain power can work in this area!!!! Portfolio Manager!!!!! I have a few who work for me


----------



## mr.robot

Viper0011. said:


> Hey man, what a catch. Ever wrote on an IPAD touch screen, watching 4 monitors and being in a conference call with having thick fingers? Yea, typos do happen. Sorry, we are all humans. But, on the other side, you never responded to anything factually, I can cry and write personal stuff too. But what good is it for? Just shows one's tiny little mental capacity like your post represents yours!!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh poor cup cake!!!!! You are so hurt!!!!! Well, don't cry. Eat a pie. If you don't like the content or the person.....don't indulge in a conversation with me.
> 
> By the way, in the last message, you were going to show me credentials. Here, you are calling Mods for help to save your hurt emotions....where are the manly, man, proud credentials I was waiting on??


 Did your monitors went blank or servers of Dow Jones went down while accessing information regarding trade volume of Pakistan's ETFs or your iPad's iOS crashed while typing that big number?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Khan_patriot

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pashtuns or any Pak ethnic group doesn't need to prove or have a certified to show their patriotism ..! Fuk that.. That disgusts me.
> 
> As for this guy .. I have a feeling that this guy is either Indian or a pseudo intellectual type.. Like that turd "tareek fateeh" clown.
> 
> I just tagged you guys to embarrass him.


Always available to take care of trolls who claim to advocate Pukhtoon rights and dissent when they have no idea about who and what we are

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> So you are telling me the Western investors paying thousands for each Security I listed for Pakistan are pure stupid and have freaking clue??  . And YOU, somehow, having NO experience in this arena, are smarter than people who've been running economies and securities across the globe for like 80 years   !!
> 
> So per the bullet points above in your post, these people, who invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Pakistani securities, decided to pay three to five times the money to LOSE money....and while they can otherwise pay to buy Google, Apple, GE and other securities much cheaper, and all inside US and more secure apparently????
> 
> Your logic is as small as a Child age 4 who gets a first Space Ship toy and thinks the Moon is as high as his hand can go in the air!! If you couldn't understand numbers I provided from the Dow and other places, the actual physical fact, there is nothing I can provide to you which would help you. Go on writing silly posts. I think I am done. You can make sense out of logic, but you can't make sense out of rants and opinions without facts!!



I say this with all due respect and cognizant of the fact that I am committing ad-hominem* that you are a fool and moreover deliberately not understanding what I am saying just so that you can have the last word. *

I will state this for the last time -

1. Most investors are looking to make profit and not loss. They are investing in Pakistan Stock Market because it has a low base and they realize that they can pump it up and then bail out leaving local investors high and dry as their is not enough liquidity in these markets. Most of the investments are in secondary market not primary like in IPOs. *Morover stock market of Pakistan like markets are never correlated to it's economy. Correlation happens only in case of Advanced and Mature Stock Markets with ample liquidity like NYSE and NASDAQ*

2. Google and Apple are not worth less just because their share price might be low. Share price cannot be just compared b/w two securities. You have to take various factors into account like liquidity, stock splits, dividends etc. You are an ignoramus if you think one can just compare two securities based on share price.



Viper0011. said:


> You just told me how high your brain power can work in this area!!!! Portfolio Manager!!!!! I have a few who work for me



I highly doubt it unless you are Bill Gates. A typical portfolio manager in the above companies handles more than 10 Billion of investment money/assets.

If you have such people working under you than what the heck are you doing on this forum?

P.S. I have still not claimed any credentials if you have intelligence enough to comprehend what I posted.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

Spectre said:


> Even discounting historing trends of returns and volumes - Even assuming they are providing stellar returns and are blue chip securities - it still doesn't help but see the complete ignorance on display when the person claiming to be know all in such matters states that these investments would fuel Pakistan's growth.
> 
> In most stable of Markets like US and UK there is at best a tangential correlation b/w stock markets and economy in developing markets like India and China that correlation is even more tenuous and in Pakistan where the Stock Market is just in it's infancy it is laughable to presume that the Stock Markets would fuel growth even if the "Bulls are reigning Supreme"



Forget the financial technicalities, some people need to look at an atlas to remind themselves of _basic _geography. Seriously. Getting to Europe and CAS via Gawadar is a huge detour for China. Getting oil from the ME to the consumption centers on the Chinese coast is best done via tankers. And so on, but let us just let this go.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mrc

Also people need to consider trade flow in opposite direction..oil from persian and arabian oil fields to china...which in turn will also attract presence of chinese navy to protect this vital route.... which in turn may also bring around down fall of un disputed american hagemony in middle east...which in turn can only be good.....
Which in turn leads to huge fire in a prticular part of body that some powers are feeling from this project.....

Moving back to PTI and domestic politics.... greatest appeal of IK is that he is not corrupt
...thats why people have forgiven his great foolishness like dharna ....
He shud continue to concentrate on his strong points.....i dont see completion of this project bringing his popularity down caz peole dont like him due to his ability to make (or break) big projects.... but his honesty.... that is the only thing going for him....only if he had a brain....alas


----------



## Orakzai

Viper0011. said:


> 1) Wrong map. Remember, you are ONLY looking at Phase I. People are causing tremendous drama without knowing the entire roadmap over the next 10-15 years!!
> 
> 2) The ONLY two most beneficial states are the KPK and Baluchistan, like i said in my explanation above. Both are the epicenter of the CPEC due to their closer proximity to the Chinese border, with Central Russian states, and with Gawader (and later with Iran). So the real wealth will be going to the KPK and Baluchistan. These foolish politicians from the KPK are making a deal out of thin air, just to score political points and deprive the nation from the ONLY real opportunity she has to turn Pakistan into an Australia in a decade or so (literally).
> 
> 3) The energy projects you mentioned, are just for phase I. The map is wrong on those too. Find an original map if you have access to it. The Chinese have some security concerns, and the Pakistani Army has started working on securing a larger area. Until all those things happen, the Chinese will work on "secure zones" as they deem necessary. Its their money and they control the delivery and work zones. Just the way investments work.
> 
> 4) Metro Lahore has no direct relationship with the CPEC. In other words, it may also have a huge investment from the Chinese, but its not due to the CPEC trade route. However, it is indirectly linked to the CPEC in terms of CPEC being used as a larger PROGRAM to grow Pakistan's economy.
> 
> The Chinese, as phase II of the CPEC when starts in 2019 - 2020, will be putting big manufacturing plants around the country's most populous areas. Haer has been looking into Lahore for her first plant.
> 
> So the infrastructure development at the province level is to create modern cities which will connect the city's population cheaply to outside industrial zones, as well as reducing traffic congestion, connecting more people for work, etc. All of which will shape up future's Lahore, Islamabad, etc when they get into real growth mode by 2018!!



My friend since you seem to be more informed about CPEC then me how about you tell me how many projects or what kind of projects (not roads) KPK is getting through this who CPEC deal? and show me some official maps of the project as you have clearly rejected the one i posted. i for surely see only one I SAY IT AGAIN ONLY ONE PROJECT for KPK in the whole CPEC.

why don't the federal government come out clean on CPEC and release all maps and documents signed with Chinese? this will shut KPK's politicians as they are blamed to be just doing politics on it. i mean i see no clear answer from government on reservations of KPK and about the whole CPEC. i watched so many government ministers on tv and none of them could even clearly explain what CPEC actually is.



Icarus said:


> The because its Pakistan's second largest city? Same as why everything has to pass through Karachi.


WRONG not because its second largest city of Pakistan but rather a vote bank for PMLN.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Just look at the historical trends, returns and volume of trade for all those funds quoted and the truth is before all to see.
> 
> 50k trucks a day is a truck every two seconds. A million trucks is 11 trucks per second. 36 billion dollars of annual investment is 3 billion per month. That is a lot. (Of BS.)



What about the history of "those funds"? And why does it matter? Hyundai and Kia when introduced in the US, were considered the shiitiest cars. But today, they are starting to compete with other regular brands like GM, Nissan, etc because the Koreans IMPROVED.

So should I take those cars value from ten years ago and bit*ch about it??? Or do I take their current value that's in the market? I'll take their price today as that's what I am paying. Same thing with these funds. When the market was shiity and the new government was starting, of course they were low. But see where those are today, WAY the hell above Google and Apples and Lockheed Martin, JP Morgan, etc!!

I have interacted with you once before and I am sure you remember...which is why you don't address me directly. You along with a few others are generally negative and pessimistic people. Pakistan has 200 million people.....can you tell me how many trucks does it have? It will be WELL over 50,000 trucks!!

The Western Chinese part Pakistan will provide freight services for, has 350 MILLION people (so 1.5 times more population than Pakistan), plus add other countries later too. The trucks routing will go way over a million in the long run. I can assure you of that, if you don't want to use the population numbers and use common sense that you don't want to bother using!!


Ever done strategic work on economy and commodities? If yes, then you should know two ways to estimate these scenarios. For example, the following are two methods used to estimate the number of trucks a certain route may get.

1) Commodity Group Density Model

2) Commodity Weight Density Data

Please don't post anything after reading the following on google. Its very apparent on how much expertise folks have in this arena on here. And YET, everyone wants to sound like the Chief Economist of Pakistan, while their real experience with commodities, markets and economic strategy may be as limited as investing a few thousand in the stock market.

Here is an excerpt from the American Trucking Association that serves the  330 Million American population in terms of their freight needs (remember, Western China and Pakistan and other countries will have over 600 MILLION consumers to use CPEC for combined).

Please note, on the following, they are ONLY talking about heavy duty trucks. Not 12-14 wheel trucks, which will be used a LOT in Pakistan and China's case!!

"The trucking industry is the lifeblood of the U.S. economy. Nearly 70% of all the freight tonnage moved in the U.S. goes on trucks. Without the industry and our truck drivers, the economy would come to a standstill. To move 9.2 billion tons of freight annually requires nearly 3 million heavy-duty Class 8 trucks and over 3 million truck drivers. It also takes over 37 billion gallons of diesel fuel to move all of that freight. Simply – without trucks, America stops"

American Trucking Associations



Orakzai said:


> *My friend since you seem to be more informed about CPEC then me how about you tell me how many projects or what kind of projects (not roads) KPK is getting through this who CPEC deal?* and show me some official maps of the project as you have clearly rejected the one i posted. i for surely see only one I SAY IT AGAIN ONLY ONE PROJECT for KPK in the whole CPEC.
> 
> Not because its second largest city of Pakistan but rather a vote bank for PMLN.



1) I don't think you are paying attention or caring to effing listen!!!! When you build a house, you just have a map of how the "structure" will look like. Then the colors and the furniture is added at the end. So right now, the infrastructure is limited to highway network and power generation. THEN there will be economic zone development and other projects that will be listed out.

2) Just to satisfy your ego, here is the list of "INITIAL" economic zones. NOTE: see my point 1 again. This was an INITIAL list, as the foundation is laid down, this list will be updated a LOT and its an ongoing process. So don't take these preliminary details thinking this is THE CPEC project!! And the image below, also provides you with some basic details of phase 1 (again, infrastructure roads and power generation) and once the feasibilities are done, the work on Phase II will be announced with updated maps and projects list.

3) YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FACT: that this is NOT under the Pakistani government. You keep bringing NS and his people in and it sounds childish and silly. They don't develop maps and lists of projects. The Chinese do. Why don't you write an email to the Chinese and let us know when you get an answer back. Really? This is getting flat out stupid to be honest. Its like dealing with a bunch of 12 year old kids who don't read, pay attention but keep crying about the same shiit again and again!!

Here's the map for you. Again, version 1. The one being circulated with nothing in KPK, was created by one of you in IK's labs of bullshiit. Thank him for fukking with your country's future progress. But it WILL happen. You can take my words for it


----------



## Orakzai

Viper0011. said:


> What about the history of "those funds"? And why does it matter? Hyundai and Kia when introduced in the US, were considered the shiitiest cars. But today, they are starting to compete with other regular brands like GM, Nissan, etc because the Koreans IMPROVED.
> 
> So should I take those cars value from ten years ago and bit*ch about it??? Or do I take their current value that's in the market? I'll take their price today as that's what I am paying. Same thing with these funds. When the market was shiity and the new government was starting, of course they were low. But see where those are today, WAY the hell above Google and Apples and Lockheed Martin, JP Morgan, etc!!
> 
> I have interacted with you once before and I am sure you remember...which is why you don't address me directly. You along with a few others are generally negative and pessimistic people. Pakistan has 200 million people.....can you tell me how many trucks does it have? It will be WELL over 50,000 trucks!!
> 
> The Western Chinese part Pakistan will provide freight services for, has 350 MILLION people (so 1.5 times more population than Pakistan), plus add other countries later too. The trucks routing will go way over a million in the long run. I can assure you of that, if you don't want to use the population numbers and use common sense that you don't want to bother using!!
> 
> 
> Ever done strategic work on economy and commodities? If yes, then you should know two ways to estimate these scenarios. For example, the following are two methods used to estimate the number of trucks a certain route may get.
> 
> 1) Commodity Group Density Model
> 
> 2) Commodity Weight Density Data
> 
> Please don't post anything after reading the following on google. Its very apparent on how much expertise folks have in this arena on here. And YET, everyone wants to sound like the Chief Economist of Pakistan, while their real experience with commodities, markets and economic strategy may be as limited as investing a few thousand in the stock market.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from the American Trucking Association that serves the  330 Million American population in terms of their freight needs (remember, Western China and Pakistan and other countries will have over 600 MILLION consumers to use CPEC for combined).
> 
> Please note, on the following, they are ONLY talking about heavy duty trucks. Not 12-14 wheel trucks, which will be used a LOT in Pakistan and China's case!!
> 
> "The trucking industry is the lifeblood of the U.S. economy. Nearly 70% of all the freight tonnage moved in the U.S. goes on trucks. Without the industry and our truck drivers, the economy would come to a standstill. To move 9.2 billion tons of freight annually requires nearly 3 million heavy-duty Class 8 trucks and over 3 million truck drivers. It also takes over 37 billion gallons of diesel fuel to move all of that freight. Simply – without trucks, America stops"
> 
> American Trucking Associations
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I don't think you are paying attention or caring to effing listen!!!! When you build a house, you just have a map of how the "structure" will look like. Then the colors and the furniture is added at the end. So right now, the infrastructure is limited to highway network and power generation. THEN there will be economic zone development and other projects that will be listed out.
> 
> 2) Just to satisfy your ego, here is the list of "INITIAL" economic zones. NOTE: see my point 1 again. This was an INITIAL list, as the foundation is laid down, this list will be updated a LOT and its an ongoing process. So don't take these preliminary details thinking this is THE CPEC project!! And the image below, also provides you with some basic details of phase 1 (again, infrastructure roads and power generation) and once the feasibilities are done, the work on Phase II will be announced with updated maps and projects list.
> 
> 3) YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FACT: that this is NOT under the Pakistani government. You keep bringing NS and his people in and it sounds childish and silly. They don't develop maps and lists of projects. The Chinese do. Why don't you write an email to the Chinese and let us know when you get an answer back. Really? This is getting flat out stupid to be honest. Its like dealing with a bunch of 12 year old kids who don't read, pay attention but keep crying about the same shiit again and again!!
> 
> Here's the map for you. Again, version 1. The one being circulated with nothing in KPK, was created by one of you in IK's labs of bullshiit. Thank him for fukking with your country's future progress. But it WILL happen. You can take my words for it
> 
> View attachment 287172


you know for once i was expecting that i might be talking to some sane PMLN supporter and i genuinely thought that you might come up with some satisfying and logical facts but you proved me wrong your reply is full of utterly bullcrap and jingoism of typical PMLN supporter and thanks to the language you used proved me wrong about expecting any valuable output from you. i just can't get my head around the fact that how easily you threw away the INFO GRAPH i posted here and labeled it as the creation of IK's lab, which infect was presented by one like you(blind PMLN supporter) on some other forum. Did you even pay attention to it for a second that there might be something which will shame you later? i mean i'll post both (yours and mine info graphs) can you pinpoint me what is the difference between them both EXCEPT mine is much more in details with all the locations of the ENERGY projects.











After you are done with comparing complaining about IK, come down of your high horses let me tell you one more thing that now its not only KPK's government who are screaming their lungs out to be taken on board and promises made be fulfilled now Sindh as well as some parties of Baluchistan has risen up (wouldn't be surprised if you call them all traitors). i said it before and i'll say it again our incompetent officials of the government can't even explain what the project is all about. watch 10 federal ministers today on TV and everyone would have their own version of CPEC explanation and everyone of them is different from the other one.


----------



## Viper0011.

Orakzai said:


> *i just can't get my head around the fact that how easily you threw away the INFO GRAPH i posted here and labeled it as the creation of IK's lab, which infect was presented by one like you(blind PMLN supporter) on some other forum.*
> 
> *Did you even pay attention to it for a second that there might be something which will shame you later? i mean i'll post both (yours and mine info graphs) can you pinpoint me what is the difference between them both EXCEPT mine is much more in details with all the locations of the ENERGY projects.*



So you are running this entire propaganda campaign because a PMLN lover posted a map somewhere on a forum, and you considered it the word of God????? Sums it ALL up   . It sounds like "someone told IK there was rigging", but it can't be proven in the SC 

I and a couple of others told you before, the map you posted, isn't real. The "Detail" you mentioned above, isn't real. 

Like I said, let's resolve this. So, write to the Chinese embassy in Islamabad to get a REAL map as nothing I provide will satisfy the liars and the propagandist. Unlike paid propagandists, I am on no one's payroll. I write the truth without caring who's rear hearts reading it. I measure my life and others, through performance!! Vs. some on here including you, who judge others through how much bullshiit comes out of their mouth.

So write to the Chinese embassy and post the map when you get from them. Make sure it has a SEAL on it so no one can Photoshop it. How about that? You own it and we'll trust you to obtain the real document and present it. 

In-fact, IK went to the Chinese embassy (without invitation, like he went to India to meet Modi, creating false importance of himself ). So post the true map with seals on it. And we'll just follow you. 

I'll debate with you when you post the real map with TRUE details on it  ( I am almost sure, like IK and his people's past, this here, won't bear any results either and its ALL talk, like hot gas coming out of the bottom of a balloon )!!


----------



## Alpha BeeTee

Horus said:


> PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.
> 
> In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.
> 
> As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".
> 
> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar


Horus bhai..
Do you really see any real threat to CPEC ?
These rants were always expected from the politicians..
I think the stakes are too high for even China to back off from this whole thing just because of our politicians.
I dont fear the haulting of this project entirely but I fear glitches and slowing down of things.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Horus said:


> PTI is in a defeatist mode. As per IK's logic Supporting CPEC = Supporting PMLN. That is disastrous.





Icarus said:


> Indeed, as a national leader, he still has some way to go before he can start identifying issues for what they are actually worth. There is some consolation in knowing that this is Chinese money though and they never make a bad investment, the Chinese will complete this project even if they have to build a road that is suspended over the whole country.



Gentlemen, I must respectfully disagree. I believe you both are misinformed, and i myself was under the same impression till i heard both of their interviews. They both have clearly said they support the Project whole heartedly, the only thing they have asked for is *TRANSPARENCY*. 

I believe their demands are just and they are well within their rights to make these demands. They have been urging the Fed Govt for the past 1 year to reveal the agreements and the plans for the Project. Not only has the Fed Govt failed to share any information with the CM's of the smaller provinces, they have largely bull dozed the project without the consent of any of the stakeholders from the smaller Provinces. IK and Khattak have asked time and again, that either a CCI meeting be called which the Fed Govt is deliberately not calling or a resolution is tabled in Parliament. My question is, why is the Fed Govt so scared of sharing any information with the other stakeholders. IK has even offered that if the Fed Govt does not want to share the information in the Parliament, they are more than welcome to share it with the Parliamentary Leaders of all the political parties. 

Just to add a cherry on top, all the other political parties have backed IK and his stance for demanding transparency in this project, and i for one as a citizen of Pakistan also demand that. The last thing we want is this money is squandered away in corruption.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Viper0011.

Alpha BeeTee said:


> *Where the heck do you get all this info from !! ?*
> 
> Regardless of the destiny of CPEC,you are an important contribution to this forum because you keep on providing an alternate opinion. I appreciate that Sir !



I have my own resources . And thank you for the compliment. I hope I can put this in the heads of these negative people that politics and personal favorites are NOT above your country and your nation. Support the work the government is doing as there is a LOT of opportunity for all Pakistanis coming up. Opportunity that was a right of every single Pakistani, but they were denied it for decades, through various means and power plays!!!! 

This is your time, Carpe Diem !!!!


----------



## TaimiKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sirs:
> 
> Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly _how _will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? _What _will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.



Dear Sir, 

The dollars or yuans will start raining after a very long time provided we have good infrastructure to support it. Personally i believe this is a very long haul project. First the route has to be made operational, then we need to have electricity which for the time being we don't have for ourselves and it should be cheap & with that other supporting infrastructure should be there. 

After that may be to cut further cost, industries start getting set up in Pakistan as till then local industry may get small portion of the trade. 

Its a long term and very ambitious project and i believe only Chinese are capable to finish it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Echo_419

Horus said:


> PTI is playing cock block here on the CPEC issue. KP is getting a share of every major project. The so called nationalists want to deprive the biggest province, the biggest domestic economy and the biggest industrial hub from the biggest project in nation's history. This is stupid at best. Also the eastern alignment serves us as a military deterrent. By placing a major Chinese, Pakistani asset within 100km of Indian border you are creating a strategic line in the sand.
> 
> In an event of a conflict the Indians would think a 100 times before attacking the Lines of Communication which serve billions of dollars worth of trade interests to not only Pakistan but China and other CPEC partner states. The only mission of PTI here is to look as if they are "doing opposition". They have no solid argument to hide the fact that they are merely trying to deny PMLN the 'credit' that comes with completing CPEC which they fear might translate into vote bank in 2018 elections. It also allows Imran Khan and PK to tap into the vote bank of far left ultra nationalists associated to ANP. This of course is being done without any regard for the project that might change Pakistan as a state for the better.
> 
> As Iqbal said : "The Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they however wither and die at the hands of the politicians".
> 
> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @Hyperion @Oscar




I think the era of Major wars between India & Pakistan is over,only proxy wars will happen now


----------



## tarrar

Sky_123 said:


> What MQM said against CPEC, any source or just your hallucination?



Bhata khory ka business.


----------



## Orakzai

Viper0011. said:


> So you are running this entire propaganda campaign because a PMLN lover posted a map somewhere on a forum, and you considered it the word of God????? Sums it ALL up   . It sounds like "someone told IK there was rigging", but it can't be proven in the SC
> 
> I and a couple of others told you before, the map you posted, isn't real. The "Detail" you mentioned above, isn't real.
> 
> Like I said, let's resolve this. So, write to the Chinese embassy in Islamabad to get a REAL map as nothing I provide will satisfy the liars and the propagandist. Unlike paid propagandists, I am on no one's payroll. I write the truth without caring who's rear hearts reading it. I measure my life and others, through performance!! Vs. some on here including you, who judge others through how much bullshiit comes out of their mouth.
> 
> So write to the Chinese embassy and post the map when you get from them. Make sure it has a SEAL on it so no one can Photoshop it. How about that? You own it and we'll trust you to obtain the real document and present it.
> 
> In-fact, IK went to the Chinese embassy (without invitation, like he went to India to meet Modi, creating false importance of himself ). So post the true map with seals on it. And we'll just follow you.
> 
> I'll debate with you when you post the real map with TRUE details on it  ( I am almost sure, like IK and his people's past, this here, won't bear any results either and its ALL talk, like hot gas coming out of the bottom of a balloon )!!



Typical darbari reply again. Do not deviate from the question i asked you. CAN YOU FIND A SINGLE DIFFERENCE IN BOTH THE INFO GRAPHS (except one has got the energy projects details)? and forget about who made the map can you dare to refuse or bet me that all these projects are not REAL PROJECTS? 

The rigging have already shamed you guys enough mate. 3 out of 4 of those constituencies asked to be opened have already fallen and later took stay order from SC. now if you want to argue on rigging open a separate thread and we will talk there too, plus we all know how effective SC already is we have hundreds of clear cases SC abusing its powers.

Talking about GAS COMING OUT OF BOTTOM HAHAHA when dharna started did you see how your fat Leader was farting 126 days?? and then he had to beg Zardari to save him? the same Zardari who he was suppose to drag on the streets of lahore??

How about i give you an even a simpler formula ask your fat leader or his darbaris to release the official papers of the whole project it will end all the hoo haaa from other polititions straight away, its much more simpler. is it not? or hold on off course he wouldn't even let you near him coz you are not SHARIF. no matter how much hard you try to defend your master my friend he will never consider you more then a darbari hahaha.

KHAIR END OF ARGUMENT FROM ME. but do pay attention to my suggestion I HOPE HE LISTENS TO YOU and invite you for a nihari some day.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muhammad Omar

*PM forms committee for redressal of reservations on CPEC*






Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in a meeting with representatives of all political parties and provinces at the Prime Minister's House in Islamabad on January 15, 2016. PHOTO: PM HOUSE

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has formed a high-powered steering committee for periodical consultation with the provinces on matters related to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

Besides constituting the 11-member committee, a number of important agreements were also made during a consultative meeting held in Islamabad under the chair of the premier to address the reservations of political parties regarding CPEC, a statement issued by the PM House said on Friday.

Representatives of all parties and provincial governments attended the meeting.

According to the statement, it was decided to carry out the construction of the western route of CPEC on priority.

*PPP urges PM to address concerns on corridor*

“Working on the principle of one corridor, multiple passages, the western alignment for CPEC will be constructed on priority, with a timeline of two years and six months, i.e. July 15, 2018,” the statement read.

All parties, the statement claimed, affirmed their support to the CPEC, agreeing that the new institutional framework will be able to better accommodate the regional concerns in future.

It was also decided that the western alignment for CPEC will be a four-lane expressway in the first phase, but with a provision for subsequent conversion into six-lane limited access motorway, for which land acquisition will be the responsibility of the Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (K-P) government.

*China-Pakistan Economic Corridor: K-P digs deeper to alter course of outcome*

The development comes a week after the Chinese government urged the government, its allies and opposition parties to resolve their differences on the route of the multibillion dollar project.

“China hopes the relevant parties in Pakistan could strengthen communication and coordination on the CPEC to create favourable conditions for the project,” the Chinese embassy in Islamabad said in a statement.

Earlier this month, the K-P government also threatened to take extreme steps if the federal government did not complete the western alignment of the project on a priority basis.

*K-P censures change in route of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor*

Pakistan and China had signed an agreement on April 20 last year to commence work on CPEC development projects worth over $46 billion, which comes to roughly 20 per cent of Pakistan’s annual GDP.

The corridor aims to connect Gwadar port in Balochistan to China’s Xinjiang region via a network of highways, railways and pipelines spread over 3,000km. Work on several sections has already started but the entire project is expected to take several years to complete.





Statement available with The Express Tribune

This will end the Controversy


----------



## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> The dollars or yuans will start raining after a very long time provided we have good infrastructure to support it. Personally i believe this is a very long haul project. First the route has to be made operational, then we need to have electricity which for the time being we don't have for ourselves and it should be cheap & with that other supporting infrastructure should be there.
> 
> After that may be to cut further cost, industries start getting set up in Pakistan as till then local industry may get small portion of the trade.
> 
> Its a long term and very ambitious project and i believe only Chinese are capable to finish it.



CPEC will improve roads, rails and the power supply, that is for sure. But the economic bonanza is unlikely to the extent that is being claimed, given that the basics remain adverse given the business climate in Pakistan and fierce international competition.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> @Icarus it is indeed sad to see that you have rated the quoted positively considering this post doesn't even have even an iota of financial logic.
> 
> FYI investment in stock markets or HCL in this example are secondary investment. The company in these cases doesn't get a single pence out of this "investment" the gain/losses are shared by the traders who are often themselves foreign institutions . The money which comes in is easy money with no lock in period like in FDI.
> 
> All traders are looking to* make a quick buck and capitalize on the low base*. As soon as they deem that the stocks are over-valued they will bail out. Real investors in stock market who bring in certain stability are domestic retail investors.
> 
> We have all seen that BSE/NSE or for that matter Shanghai Stock Markets suffer from* flight to quality* in turbulent times. In such cases the losses are often born by small local investors. Companies as I have earlier stated remain divorced too an extent from both the secondary investments which* constitute majority of stock market activity* and pull outs.
> 
> The thing which could have been beneficial is not quick and easy money in stock exchanges but *funding of start-ups, Foreign Direct Investment and greenfield investment*. Thus Chinese investment is Gold in this regard and I would consider the 46 Billion out of 180 Billion as Kosher.
> 
> _The only real investment happens in STOCK MARKET are in primary securities like IPO's or follow on offers which are once in a blue moon event for any company. _
> 
> Anyway if you remember from our earlier conversations I have nothing against Pakistan - infact I whole heartedly support it's economic development and prosperity as that would give Pakistan a substantial stake in peace process b/w our countries. I just cant stand the blatant ignorance and smug arrogance on display. It is better to be realistic and plan for the future based on ground realities than indulging in wool-gathering.
> 
> @Syed.Ali.Haider @rainman @Nihonjin1051 your views on the veracity of my post as you guys have experience in financial markets as I assume.


Sir, I think the funniest part is that @Viper0011 is citing the abnormally high prices fo Pakistani securities as compared to "value stocks" (Google, Apple etc) as a positive reflection of the health of Pakistan's securities market but seems to entirely ignore the inherent relationship between risk and reward built into the securities market. The high security prices in Pakistan are a reflection of this higher inherent risk in Pakistani securities.

Blue chip companies/value stocks have tradtionally traded at lower P/E multiples than so-called "glamour" stocks (tech companies in the late 90s/earl 00s, electronics in the 60s/70s etc) but they have also, on average, far outperformed these glamour stocks. We all know what happened to many of these entities who were seeing ridiculous P/E multiples at the height of their respective bubbles. Only a fool would judge the quality and thus future performance of a security by its current price alone.



Viper0011. said:


> And I can tell how "experienced" you are. If all you think about the stocks as a "broker" trying to make a buck or two!! This is capital money coming to a business based on their performance, profit to share holders (called Share Holder's Equity). And when you do an IPO, your shares are sold, the company gets investments and the reason others want to put their hard earned money under a business in terms of stock, is they expect the business to use the stock money and grow and be MORE profitable. In turn, increasing stock values and distributions per stock in the future!! Google as an example was way below $ 100 not too many years ago. Its not over $ 700 per stock!!


I think @Spectre has addressed this quite clearly- after IPOs or subsequent issues (primary market) all shares will be traded in the secondary market ie between traders. The entity will not benefit if the price of its stock goes up in the secondary market- it will not be able to convert that into an increase in capital outlay.



Viper0011. said:


> So per the bullet points above in your post, these people, who invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Pakistani securities, decided to pay three to five times the money to LOSE money....and while they can otherwise pay to buy Google, Apple, GE and other securities much cheaper, and all inside US and more secure apparently????


Again, you are being completly ignorant of financial history. There is an inherent relationship between risk and return, there is a reason value stocks like Apple, Google, GE etc trade at lower prices to Pakistani securities. It is NOT because the Pakistani securities are considered more successful or expected to deliver greater returns in the future. In 1967 ATO inc traded at high $73 with a P/E multiple of 51, in 1969 it traded at low of $10 with a P/E multiple of 13- security prices do NOT tell you the full picture of the future prospects of a security.

@Spectre do you think Warren Buffett would be agreeing with our friend?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir, I think the funniest part is that @Viper0011 is citing the abnormally high prices fo Pakistani securities as compared to "value stocks" (Google, Apple etc) as a positive reflection of the health of Pakistan's securities market but seems to entirely ignore the inherent relationship between risk and reward built into the securities market. The high security prices in Pakistan are a reflection of this higher inherent risk in Pakistani securities.
> 
> Blue chip companies/value stocks have tradtionally traded at lower P/E multiples than so-called "glamour" stocks (tech companies in the late 90s/earl 00s, electronics in the 60s/70s etc) but they have also, on average, far outperformed these glamour stocks. We all know what happened to many of these entities who were seeing ridiculous P/E multiples at the height of their respective bubbles. Only a fool would judge the quality and thus future performance of a security by its current price alone.
> 
> 
> I think @Spectre has addressed this quite clearly- after IPOs or subsequent issues (primary market) all shares will be traded in the secondary market ie between traders. The entity will not benefit if the price of its stock goes up in the secondary market- it will not be able to convert that into an increase in capital outlay.
> 
> 
> Again, you are being completly ignorant of financial history. There is an inherent relationship between risk and return, there is a reason value stocks like Apple, Google, GE etc trade at lower prices to Pakistani securities. It is NOT because the Pakistani securities are considered more successful or expected to deliver greater returns in the future. In 1967 ATO inc traded at high $73 with a P/E multiple of 51, in 1969 it traded at low of $10 with a P/E multiple of 13- security prices do NOT tell you the full picture of the future prospects of a security.
> 
> @Spectre do you think Warren Buffett would be agreeing with our friend?



Let it go, he is an old troll. I shouldn't have got into that meaningless discussion with him but then I did - my fault that I wasted my time and energy. 

Regards

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir, I think the funniest part is that @Viper0011 is citing the abnormally high prices fo Pakistani securities as compared to "value stocks" (Google, Apple etc) as a positive reflection of the health of Pakistan's securities market but seems to entirely ignore the inherent relationship between risk and reward built into the securities market. The high security prices in Pakistan are a reflection of this higher inherent risk in Pakistani securities.
> 
> Again, you are being completly ignorant of financial history. There is an inherent relationship between risk and return, there is a reason value stocks like Apple, Google, GE etc trade at lower prices to Pakistani securities. It is NOT because the Pakistani securities are considered more successful or expected to deliver greater returns in the future. In 1967 ATO inc traded at high $73 with a P/E multiple of 51, in 1969 it traded at low of $10 with a P/E multiple of 13- security prices do NOT tell you the full picture of the future prospects of a security.
> 
> @Spectre do you think Warren Buffett would be agreeing with our friend?




   ....either one of you ever did stock evaluations or economic planning or IPO's???? Obviously, just from the post, the answer is a HELL NO, but I thought I'd repeat it to double check, may be somewhere a few thousands were invested to "gain" experience from Google articles!! Ever worked as a Chief Investment Office or headed an organization focused on Securities, Hedge Funding, Real State Infrastructure development???? The answer is HELL NO again!!

SO let me get it right. Per your post, when people can make great returns from stable, globally well known and STABLE organizations like Apple, JP Morgan, Citi, Google......from $ 45 - 700 per security....they'd INSTEAD pick high risk securities like the Pakistani ETF's, for EACH of which, they would have to pay double from the above list, and in some cases 4, 5 times the money for each security??? 

So you are saying that a guy who has $ 20K in savings, can buy a TOTAL of *6 * individual units of the top end Pakistani ETF (selling over $ 2900.00 per one unit), by spending $ 20,000 dollars (with VERY higher risk as per your post).....

OR, he could go and buy, approximately 33 shares of Google, or 357 stocks of JP Morgan, or 444 stocks of Citi bank, or 1250 stocks of Bank of America (slated to go way up if the market can stabilize and then give a nice quarter or two). All the above are much more stable and known American stocks with tremendous return capability!!!! Its time I do this to your posts  and this is to your buddy's post  !!!!! If the Text books actually ran the Market, ALL PhD and Masters in Economics, would all be stock brokers, or CIO (Chief Investments Officer, not the CIO which the Indian community loves, the Information Officer !!

By the way, in real life, PE is worth not even two shiits. People like Mr. Cramer uses these for his shows. Take a look at the market and see where the securities are for weeks now, with PE of 1 or in the "exceptional" range. When people were jumping with "Bullish" markets in early 2015....we were predicting "the Bear is here, save yourself"!!

Also, respectful Mr. Buffet would ABSOLUTELY agree with me. He is my indirect teacher / mentor. I follow every single principle the guy's ever exercised. THE MOST critical of Mr. Buffet is to never look at the PE  . 

You go sell him something at a billion dollar profit today, if he sees no intrinsic value, he won't even care for the billion and a week or a few months after, you'll realize what the hell he was thinking. On the other hand, he'll buy anything or invest into anything that has some intrinsic value. When he invested into Geico insurance, people were like, WTF ?

And when he opened up Berkshire Hathaway Real Estate group and started to buy all major call dealerships, the same critics were like "holly shiit", we get it now, Goddamn, this guy is a genius!!!  . Thanks for adding his name to the post as to show me "some" credentials. Its always entertaining dealing with our egoistic Indian members who throw names and titles to gain credentials


----------



## Salik

Leviza said:


> After Careful calculations and keeping in mind the importance of CPEC for all the people of Pakistani , the CPEC route is redefined.
> 
> View attachment 287020



This map is highly appreciated. Why, Jamshed Dasti has announced sit ins against CPEC neglecting Saraiki areas.

I've solution for these politicians. For the time being announce CPEC is being cancelled, it'll give them shock of 440 VOLTS. It is enough for a shut up call.


----------

