# Pak P-3 Orion vs India P-8I



## Nazi

P-3 Orion:








*General characteristics*
Crew: 11
Length: 116 ft 10 in (35.6 m)
Wingspan: 99 ft 8 in (30.4 m)
Height: 33 ft 8.5 in (10.3 m)
Wing area: 1300 ft&#178; (120.8 m&#178
Airfoil: NACA 0014-1.10 (Root) - NACA 0012-1.10 (Tip)
Empty weight: 77,200 lb (35,000 kg)
Loaded weight: 135,000 lb (61,400 kg)
Useful load: 57,800 lb (26,400 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 142,000 lb (64,400 kg)
Powerplant: 4&#215; Allison T56-A-14 turboprop, 4,600 shp (3,700 kW) each
Propellers: Four-bladed Hamilton Standard propeller, 1 per engine 
Propeller diameter: 13 ft 6 in (4.11 m)

*Performance*
Maximum speed: 405 kn (750 km/h)
Cruise speed: 330 kn (610 km/h)
Range: 5,600 mi ferry (9,000 km)
Service ceiling: 34,000 ft (10,400 m)
Rate of climb: 3,140 ft/min (16 m/s)
Wing loading: 107 lb/ft&#178; (530 kg/m&#178
Power/mass: 0.03 hp/lb (0.06 kW/kg)

*Armament*
Bombs: 20,000 lb (9,000 kg)
Missiles: AGM-84 Harpoon, the Standoff Land Attack Missile, AGM-65 Maverick
Sonobuoys: 48 Pre-loaded, 50+ Deployable from inside
Other: Mk 46, Mk 50 and MU90 Impact torpedoes, mines, depth charges

P-8 Poseidon:






*General characteristics*
Crew: Flight:2 Mission:7
Length: 126 ft 6 in (39.47 m)
Wingspan: 117 ft 6 in (35.72 m)
Height: 42 ft 1 in (12.83 m)
Empty weight: 138,300 lb (62,730 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 188,200 lb (85,370 kg)
Powerplant: 2&#215; CFM International CFM56-7B, 27,000 lbf (120 kN) each

*Performance*
Maximum speed: 490 knots (907 km/h)
Cruise speed: 440 kn (815 km/h)
Service ceiling: 41,000 ft (12,500 m)

*Armament*
Joint missiles, Mines and Torpedoes

*Avionics*
Raytheon APY-10 multi-mission surface search radar
(Advanced Airborne Sensor surface search radar and SIGINT package to be follow on system


----------



## Arsalan

well on paper and as far as the specs are concerned,
it is a lost battle...
but
keeping in view our requirments and the conditions P3 are good for us for time being!!

regards!


----------



## graphican

In my opinion, rate of climb, the service ceiling and Ferry range would be irrelevant in the performance comparison. We don't have as huge coast to guard as India has. In my opinion, the parameters of comparison should be how accurate, and effective they are in hunting down submarines. P8-I being new would have edge over P3 in terms of distance from which they can track and the depth at which they are able to see. So considering our requirement, we might not be as "lost" as the specs are suggesting.


----------



## GLOBAL HAWK

No doubt P-8 is far more lethal


----------



## PAFAce

The P-3 is trusted worldwide. My cousin's worked on the Canadian CP-140 Aurora upgrades, and he tells me it's served (and continues to serve) the Canadians real well. It is a very capable platform. The Canadians, the Aussies, the Americans, the Germans, the Japanese, the Brazilians and many more have trusted it to perform critical maritime missions for years, so they should do just fine for our needs as well. 

The Poseidon is very capable as well, no doubt. But, these type of 1 vs 1 comparisons are useless except in contract contests where requirements and other are aspects are exactly equal. Last time I checked, the Americans were going to go for the P-8 over a P-3 upgrade, so that really answer the question. And that really is all one needs to say on this topic.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## EagleEyes

> Armament
> Joint missiles, Mines and Torpedoes



What kind of joint missiles. Will India purchase any?


----------



## sancho

WebMaster said:


> What kind of joint missiles. Will India purchase any?





> The technical assistance agreement to `operationalise' the P-8i deal, for instance, was inked recently. Then, the contract for AGM-84L and ATM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles for $170 million is being finalised now, said defence ministry sources.



Indo-US military tango continues, two major wargames in Oct - India - NEWS - The Times of India


----------



## Arsalan

i guess PN and PAF also have the same Harpoon Missile..!


----------



## Super Falcon

P3C major ob is to hunt any inian intruder submarines in pakistani waters and P3C is capable of doing it these things are not fighte jet so stop compring both but P8 is more better in tech than P3C for sure


----------



## Righteous_Fire

When does the PN plan to change/upgrade its P-3 fleet?? with the IN getting all this hardware, it must be a concern for PN!!


----------



## Stealth

righteous_fire said:


> When does the PN plan to change/upgrade its P-3 fleet?? with the IN getting all this hardware, it must be a concern for PN!!



Exactly,

F18 or F16 Deal
C-130 Transport
P8i

not even single sign of Pakistan concern on that. Even not single statement comes from GOP, PA, PN, PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LiberalPakistani

sancho said:


> Indo-US military tango continues, two major wargames in Oct - India - NEWS - The Times of India



seems like a plan for future offensive against Pakistan just to let you know we are sleeping but not dead yet anxiously awaiting across.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sancho said:


> Indo-US military tango continues, two major wargames in Oct - India - NEWS - The Times of India



cool.... so both sides will have fairly the same harpoon. pakistan just recently bought 130 of them.


----------



## niaz

There is little doubt that with higher cruising speed, a jet platform can cover larger area than a comparable propeller aircraft thus one would need fewer jet based MR aircrafts to do the job. As rightly pointed out, Indian has longer coastline to monitor, hence a jet powered platform would be more cost effective. Besides, having a higher maximum speed, P-8 can get out of the way faster than P-3 when faced with hostile aircraft.

PN has had experience with P-3s for almost a decade and have acquired sufficient experience in maintenance & training of the crews. Therefore for our needs P-3s are better suited for the foreseeable future.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## garibnawaz

Growler said:


> cool.... so both sides will have fairly the same harpoon. pakistan just recently bought 130 of them.



Pakistan has acquired Harpoon Block-I
Inda has Acquired Harpoon Block-II

Pakistan have surface/ship launched Harpoons which India don't have.
India will have air launched Harpoons. Does Pakistan have them?

GB


----------



## sancho

niaz said:


> There is little doubt that with higher cruising speed, a jet platform can cover larger area than a comparable propeller aircraft thus one would need fewer jet based MR aircrafts to do the job. As rightly pointed out, Indian has longer coastline to monitor, hence a jet powered platform would be more cost effective. Besides, having a higher maximum speed, P-8 can get out of the way faster than P-3 when faced with hostile aircraft.
> 
> PN has had experience with P-3s for almost a decade and have acquired sufficient experience in maintenance & training of the crews. Therefore for our needs P-3s are better suited for the foreseeable future.


That's it, different aircrafts for different requirement and not really comparable. That's why IN will not only get P8I for maritime patrol and ASW, there is also another competition for a medium range MP aircraft with contenders like:

ATR 72 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EADS CASA C-295 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dassault Falcon 900 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Embraer R-99 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These might be more comparable to P3, but imo there is no real need for a comparison, because they won't fight each other and will do mainly the same job, even if the one can fly faster and the other maybe longer.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Super Falcon

yes pakistan have air launch harpooon from mirage fighter jet

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## arslan_treen

garibnawaz said:


> Pakistan has acquired Harpoon Block-I
> Inda has Acquired Harpoon Block-II
> 
> Pakistan have surface/ship launched Harpoons which India don't have.
> India will have air launched Harpoons. Does Pakistan have them?
> 
> GB


Pakistan Already has Harpoon block -II and yes Pakistan has air launched Harpoons carried on P3s and mirage though i am not sure about mirage as they usually come with exsocit 
Regards


----------



## garibnawaz

Super Falcon said:


> yes pakistan have air launch harpooon from mirage fighter jet



Please enlgiht me with some sources or links.

Pics will be great.

I found the info on Pakistan's Harpoon Block - II which are launched from Surface (means ships as well in this case) however the info which I found says only testing has been done and purchases/deliveries are yet to be done.

However I still couldn't find info on Pakistani air launched Harpoons.

Please enlight me more.

Thanks.

GB


----------



## Myth_buster_1

garibnawaz said:


> Pakistan has acquired Harpoon Block-I
> Inda has Acquired Harpoon Block-II
> 
> Pakistan have surface/ship launched Harpoons which India don't have.
> India will have air launched Harpoons. Does Pakistan have them?
> 
> GB



seriously you could have done a little bit more research before you could have been so confident with your statement. 



garibnawaz said:


> Please enlgiht me with some sources or links.
> 
> Pics will be great.
> 
> I found the info on Pakistan's Harpoon Block - II which are launched from Surface (means ships as well in this case) however the info which I found says only testing has been done and purchases/deliveries are yet to be done.
> 
> However I still couldn't find info on Pakistani air launched Harpoons.
> 
> Please enlight me more.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> GB



and then here you go again. 

Deagel


> In November 2005 Boeing was awarded a $62.5 million contract for delivery of Harpoon Block II and related materiel for Pakistan, Japan, and Australia. The order included a $61.7 million contract for delivery of 40 tactical Block II AirLaunch All-Up-Round (AUR) missiles and 10 tactical Block II Grade B AUR missiles for the Government of Pakistan.
> Friday, March 30, 2007 Pakistan procurement of 30 Harpoon Block II encapsulated missiles and related equipment under the foreign military sales program. The order was part of a $191 million contract awarded to McDonnell Douglas Corp/Boeing and placed by the US Navy on March 30, 2007. The contract was scheduled for completion December 2011.
> Items: 30
> 
> Monday, February 12, 2007 Contract option for 10 Harpoon Block II Grade B All-Up-Round (AUR) missiles and 10 MK631Canister AUR Containers for the Government of Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) Program announced 12 February 2007. The contract was valued at $15.79 million and was expected to complete in February 2007.





> Turkey, Pakistan, Korea and Japan SLAM ER and Harpoon Foreign Military Sales
> News >> Missiles & Munitions >> Sales & Contracts
> 
> Released on Friday, March 30, 2007
> 
> McDonnell Douglas Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Co., St. Louis, Mo., is being awarded a $191,362,762 firm-fixed-priced contract for the procurement of four Standoff Land Attack Missile-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER) exercise missiles retrofitted from SLAMs to SLAM-ERs for the U.S. Navy. This contract also provides for the procurement of 48 SLAM-ER tactical missiles (Turkey) and 2 each SLAM-ER Guidance Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Warhead Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Sustainer Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Control Sections (Turkey); SLAM-ER Exercise Missiles (Turkey); SLAM-ER Captive Air Training Missiles (Turkey); Harpoon Exercise Sections (Japan); Harpoon Exercise/Warhead Containers (Japan); and Harpoon Captive Air Training Missile (CATM-84) (Ballistic Air Test Vehicle-uninstrumented) (Korea) for Foreign Military Sales. In addition, this contract provides for the procurement of 3 SLAM-ER Instrumented Recoverable Air Test Vehicles (Turkey), 59 SLAM-ER All Up Round (AUR) Missile Containers (Turkey), 40 Harpoon Tactical Block II Encapsulated AURs (Pakistan (30) and Korea (10)), 15 Harpoon Tactical Block II Air Launch AURs (Korea), 40 Harpoon Encapsulated AUR containers (Pakistan (30) and Korea (10)), 9 Harpoon Air Launch AUR Containers (Korea), and 6 Harpoon Guidance Section Containers (Japan) for Foreign Military Sales. Work will be performed in St. Charles, Mo. (45.75%); various locations across the United States (9.35%); McKinney, Texas (8.29%); the United Kingdom (8.03%); Toledo, Ohio (5.44%); Tucson, Ariz. (4.18%); Huntsville, Ala. (3.59%); Melbourne, Fla. (3.31%); Fort Washington, Pa. (2.74%);Middletown, Conn. (1.91%); Galena, Kansas (1.80%); Erlanger, Ky.. (1.44%); Elkton, Md. (1.44%); Clearwater, Fla. (1.44%); and Kirkwood, Mo. (1.29%) and is expected to be completed in December 2011. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was not competitively procured. This contract combines purchases for the U.S. Navy ($3,749,208; 1.96%) and the Governments of Turkey ($79,150,963; 41.36%); Pakistan ($63,666,450; 33.27%); Korea ($43,974,637); and Japan ($821,504; 0.43%) under the Foreign Military Sales Program. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Md. is the contracting activity (N00019-07-C-0037).




and here is a pic of P-3C with AGM-84.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## maverick2009

Comparing the old P3 with a brand new state of the art P8 is like comparing the F16 TO JSF F35.. 

ie the new P8 that are about to enter service are BRAND NEW state of the ART 21ST CENTURY maritime planes. 

A $2 billion cost to india says it all


----------



## TOPGUN

maverick2009 said:


> Comparing the old P3 with a brand new state of the art P8 is like comparing the F16 TO JSF F35..
> 
> ie the new P8 that are about to enter service are BRAND NEW state of the ART 21ST CENTURY maritime planes.
> 
> A $2 billion cost to india says it all



Perhaps you can provide some funds for Pakistan then since u got such a itch to make that comment! to inform you Pak has old P3's and also the newest version's of it and more are on the way. No one said P3's are a match for the P8's get it right if anything we can start talking about your countires mig-21/ AKA the coffins if anything so just chill out with your excitment.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Arsalan

right commented Sir.
Mr Maverick, there is no one asying that they are equally good!
if you can go through the posts on this thread it will do good to you, the only claim is that they are good enough for PN!!

better have a go through the discussion before making an argument!

regards!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## arsenal_gooner

Exocet Missile -Pakistan Test Fire 

plane and ship launched


----------



## lindsyebanks

PAF Mirage VPA's are equipped only to be armed with AM-39 Exocet and not with AGM-84L (air launched) Harpoon. PN's P-3C's will be the only aircraft whose inventory will include AGM-84L.

As has been mentioned in this post already, PN has both Block I and Block II of the Harpoon in service/on order. Further, it has all three variants - air, surface & sub-surface launched of both the Block I and Block II. The Block I has been in PN service since the mid-80's, being fitted on its surface ships initailly and then following equipment upgrade on its Agosta 70 SSN's, folowed by the Daphne SSN's. Originally slated to be delivered in 1990, but then embargoed, PN finally received its air launched Harpoon Block I in 1996, of which it received at least 28 confirmed missiles. Needless to say the surface launched and in particular the sub-surface launched Harpoons were provided in plentiful numbers as Pakistan was still on good (relatively) diplomatic terms with the US - given the duo's joint foreign policy against Soviet agression in Afghanistan. 

I have noted that a figure of 130 Harpoon Block II's has been mentioned on order for Pakistan. However an additional order for an 60 Block II's has also been placed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BlackPearll

Boeing P-8A Poseidon first flight


----------



## BlackPearll




----------



## BlackPearll

Boeing will have five P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine test planes completed by March 2009, with full production expected to commence in 2013. One hundred and twenty nine feet long aircraft with a 117 foot wingspan, the long-awaited replacement for the P-3 Orion will be incorporated into the US Navy and the Royal Australian Air Force. The Poseidon is a long-range anti-submarine plane like its predecessor, and will carry five torpedoes, four anti-ship missiles and two satellite guided bombs.

In addition to its anti-submarine capabilities, the Poseidon can be used for reconnaissance, surveillance, anti-surface warfare, shipping interdiction and intelligence gathering. It has an advanced mission system for maximum interoperability in battle space and is capable of broad-area, maritime and littoral operations.

The P-8A Poseidon has a cruising speed of 815 km/h and a maximum speed of 907km/h, with 30 million flight hours. Each CFM56-7 engine receives 27,300 pounds of takeoff thrust, and in flight the plane can reach a service ceiling of 12.5 km. While empty, it weighs 62 ,30kg, and it has a maximum takeoff weight of 85,370kg. The P-8 is based on Boeing&#8217;s 737-800, and is the first militarized version of that series. It features raked wingtips rather than blended winglets and six additional body fuel tanks. The US Navy has been searching for a replacement for the P-3 for roughly two decades.


----------



## Romanch

Has China developed or is developing a potent anti-submarine, ELINT military aircraft?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gambit

niaz said:


> There is little doubt that *with higher cruising speed, a jet platform can cover larger area than a comparable propeller aircraft thus one would need fewer jet based MR aircrafts to do the job.* As rightly pointed out, Indian has longer coastline to monitor, hence a jet powered platform would be more cost effective. Besides, having a higher maximum speed, P-8 can get out of the way faster than P-3 when faced with hostile aircraft.
> 
> PN has had experience with P-3&#8217;s for almost a decade and have acquired sufficient experience in maintenance & training of the crews. Therefore for our needs P-3&#8217;s are better suited for the foreseeable future.


Not necessarily fewer, here is why...

With a higher cruising speed than prop jobs, a jet AWACS platform can be a superior synthetic aperture radar system, therefore there will be a strong desire to have even more jet AWACS. Try to understand the military mindset.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Myth_buster_1

maverick2009 said:


> Comparing the old P3 with a brand new state of the art P8 is like comparing the F16 TO JSF F35..
> 
> ie the new P8 that are about to enter service are BRAND NEW state of the ART 21ST CENTURY maritime planes.
> 
> A $2 billion cost to india says it all



huh? Does P-8 has stealth? nope...
the comparison is more like P-3C update 3=F-16 block 15 MLU M3 vs P-8= FA-18 E/F...


----------



## garibnawaz

Growler said:


> seriously you could have done a little bit more research before you could have been so confident with your statement.



I didnot made a statement. I shared the knowledge that I have. Since I was not sure I asked the fellow members to enlight me more. Thats why we come on forums to gain knowledge.

Since you have been kind enough to share that knowledge Thank You.

GB

P.S: - I can't believe I am saying Thank You to Growler.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

garibnawaz said:


> I didnot made a statement. I shared the knowledge that I have. Since I was not sure I asked the fellow members to enlight me more. Thats why we come on forums to gain knowledge.
> 
> Since you have been kind enough to share that knowledge Thank You.
> 
> GB
> 
> P.S: - I can't believe I am saying Thank You to Growler.



Thank you

PS: thank you 


anyways..

these videos should sum up our upgraded P-3 update III and P-3AEW










wow check out the glass cockpit in the second video.


----------



## gubbi

Growler said:


> huh? Does P-8 has stealth?



The more important question you need to ask is: can it supercruise _and_ hover?

btw, nice info in your previous post.


----------



## Gabbar

P-8 Posiden is better than P-3. P-8 is succesor to P-3 and US is also going to replace it's 103 P-3s. India was offered P-3 as well but that offer was rejected.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Gabbar said:


> P-8 Posiden is better than P-3. P-8 is succesor to P-3 and US is also going to replace it's 103 P-3s. India was offered P-3 as well but that offer was rejected.



No.. P-3 is much better  just kidding..
on a serious note. P-8 is in fact next generation MPA however P-3 has been upgraded with up to date systems... currently their are about 50 P-3C Update III which are one of the best variant of the orions. 
and one should not forget that at the end of the day Pakistan has smaller coastal area then india...


----------



## s90

I was just thinking that can our ACLM Raad target a destroyer or a submarine?


----------



## Patriot

No, it does not have anti shipping seeker like our Harm and Exocet Missiles and i think we also have C-802 anti shipping cruise missiles.


----------



## Arsalan

yes and even the under development naval version will be a land atack missile,,
we are not developing anything like an AShM!

regards!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Patriot said:


> No, it does not have anti shipping seeker like our Harm and Exocet Missiles and i think we also have C-802 anti shipping cruise missiles.



sir g one correction. the HARM you are talking about is anti-radiation AGM and does not have a anti-ship seeker. however anti-radiation AGM can home in surface vessel's radar emitting radiation..


----------



## gambit

> s90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just thinking that can our ACLM Raad target a destroyer or a submarine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it does not have *anti shipping seeker* like our Harm and Exocet Missiles and i think we also have C-802 anti shipping cruise missiles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arsalanaslam123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes and even the under development naval version will be a land atack missile,,
> we are not developing anything like an AShM!
> 
> regards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Growler said:
> 
> 
> 
> sir g one correction. the HARM you are talking about is anti-radiation AGM and does not have a *anti-ship seeker*. however anti-radiation AGM can home in surface vessel's radar emitting radiation..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I am going to clear up some misconceptions about anti-ship missiles.

First...Radar is line-of-sight (LoS), therefore, the higher the elevation the greater distance the view, visual or electronic.

Horizon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> # For observers on the ground with eye-level at h = 5 ft 7 in (5.583 ft), the horizon is at a distance of 2.89 miles.
> 
> # For observers standing on a hill or tower *100 ft in height*, the horizon is at a distance of *12.25 miles*.



Second...Breaking the horizon or horizon break, whatever the phrasing, it is meant to describe the *INSTANT* the sensor detect an anomaly other than the constant line of the horizon. An analogy is driving on the road looking ahead at the bland horizon line between the ground and the sky, then after one millimeter or one meter or one hundred meters or one km, the driver's eyes picked up an outline of a building. That instant is informally called 'horizon break'.

What if the driver is instructed to 'home in' on the largest object, visually speaking, he finds? That mean the moment he detect an outline of a hill, or a tree or a building (note the 'OR' operator), he will steer towards that object. What if at horizon break, he detect an outline of a hill and a building (note the 'AND' operator)? What are his instructions? None? Then he will continue on a 'null' course, meaning he will steer towards neither as both objects effectively cancelled each other out.

Remember that radar is line-of-sight. The higher the elevation, the more likely that the missile will see multiple targets, if there are within its field-of-view (FoV). But the missile is traveling at several hundreds km/h, perhaps even supersonic, and that leave the missile's target processor extremely little time, as in seconds, to make any decision upon multiple targets detection. The lower the elevation, the more likely the missile can see only one target at horizon break, making the decision process easier. The higher the elevation, the odds increases that the missile can be detected by the ship's radar, alerting the defenders to take defensive measures, whatever those might be. The lower the elevation, the odds decreases that the missile can be detected by the ship, but then the missile faced with the original problem of much shorter response time upon detection of an anomaly which is 'ship'.

Radar RCS is highly influenced by target aspect angle to the radar, meaning that to a radar, broadside is much larger than head-on. Ship, car, aircraft or a ***, all objects will have different RCS depending how each is presented (aspect angle) to the radar. So if an anti-ship missile at 10 meters elevation suddenly on horizon break detect two targets, one that is several decibels smaller than the other, how does it know which is a capital ship like an aircraft carrier and one is a supply ship? What if the smaller target is the aicraft carrier in a head-on aspect angle to the missile's radar? What if the larger RCS is a chaff bloom? Fuel is finite so programmed maneuvers reduces launch distance and the ability of a missile to *ATTEMPT* to reacquire a target in the event of a miss, so how much maneuvers should there be? One meter off by any defensive method and the victory belongs to the ship.

There is a problem unique to water regarding radar. Multipaths propagation exists when the radar transmission is largely horizontal to a surface, earth or water. Basically, the radar wave signal deflects off the surface...

Multipath propagation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> In radar processing, *multipath causes ghost targets to appear, deceiving the radar receiver.* These ghosts are particularly bothersome since they move and behave like the normal targets (which they echo), and so the receiver has difficulty in isolating the correct target echo. These problems can be overcome by incorporating a ground map of the radar's surroundings and eliminating all echoes which appear to originate below ground or above a certain height.


Water can cause the target, even as large as an aircraft carrier, to appear to be below the surface. An early problem with ship radars at detecting low altitude anti-ship missiles is 'nodding' where the antenna, upon receiving commands from the radar computer, attempt to track a false underwater moving target, actually 'nods' itself in the up-down motion.

There are four distinct multipaths to explain the image in the above link:

1- Direct/direct. This is where the radar transmission and target echo has direct paths between sensor and target.

2- Direct/indirect. This is where the transmission has a direct path from sensor to target but part of the target echo deflects off a surface, earth or water, before heading back to the sensor.

3- Indirect/direct. This is where part of the transmission deflects off a surface, earth or water, impact the target, and part of the target echo take the direct path back to the sensor.

4- Indirect/indirect. This is where part of the transmission deflects off a surface, earth or water, impact the target, and part of the target echo deflects off that same surface before heading back to the sensor.

Keep in mind that because this is a wave that spreads over distance that created those paths. Target echo behaves the same. All four conditions occurs at once. The lower the transmission elevation, aka flight altitude, the more difficult it will be for the overall radar system. Larger ship radar systems can incorporate multiple radars at different angles and sophisticated algorithms to compensate. Small missiles do not have that space luxury, making a missile's radar system far less capable at dealing with multipath propagation.

Douglas Sea States also matters...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The Douglas Sea Scale is a scale which measures the height of the waves and also measures the swell of the sea. The scale is very simple to follow. The Douglas Sea Scale is expressed in one of 10 degrees.


It is embarassing to have one's missile swatted out of the air by a wave if it is not programmed to compensate for higher sea state. However, higher flight altitude by the missile increases the odds of detection by the ship.

These are basic issues for any missile designer to address. From these basic issues there are competing claims about superiority of one missile over the other on target discrimination, radar performance, speed, etc...etc...Seduction/distraction chaff falls under 'target discrimination'. But once the reader understand that these basic issues cannot be eliminated, only dealt with in some ways, he can look at those competing claims with a more critical eye. A larger missile does not automatically equal to a more sophisticated missile in terms of avionics, may be just a larger explosive load. A faster missile can just simply mean the designer decided to use speed to reduce or perhaps even deny the defenders response time.

Clear as mud?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## SBD-3

Gabbar said:


> P-8 Posiden is better than P-3. P-8 is succesor to P-3 and US is also going to replace it's 103 P-3s. India was offered P-3 as well but that offer was rejected.


What I can think that why PN is going for P-3 are
1)Obviously more economical
2)Past experience
3)Small coastline
4)Operational History

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ejaz007

Both systems belong to a different generation. No point in comparing them technically. The only thing that can be compared is their role and use.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SBD-3

ejaz007 said:


> Both systems belong to a different generation. No point in comparing them technically. The only thing that can be compared is their role and use.


Both seem to possess the same role


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Both seem to possess the same role



and both satsify the need of there operators, P3 are good wiht PN, atleast for time being!!

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

yap I think so we should be satisfied no need to eye big lollipop


----------



## NSG Commando

The Indian navy is the first international customer for the P-8. Boeing signed a contract Jan. 1, 2009 to deliver eight long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft to the Indian navy. Boeing will deliver the first P-8I within 48 months of contract signing, and the remaining seven by 2015.

Indias immediate need is for eight aircraft, but Boeing believes there is long-term potential for additional aircraft sales.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Which anti-submarine warfare missile will equip P-8I's of IN? Thanks in Advance.


----------



## IBM

hasnain0099 said:


> What I can think that why PN is going for P-3 are
> 1)Obviously more economical
> 2)Past experience
> 3)Small coastline
> 4)Operational History



I fullly agree with you.


----------



## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> Which anti-submarine warfare missile will equip P-8I's of IN? Thanks in Advance.


Check post #7 on the first page.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Harpoon-II, Hmmm... Good weapon for Naval use.

Any idea where these will be stationed? At which bases.


----------



## Arsalan

we got the same blk II recently and in addition we have the older ones that were supplie in 80z! these are the ones that indians are cryong about that we have modified them for land attack!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

I think in reality Pakistan may modify Block Is into Block-IIs with US assistance or permission. But i hope i am wrong and Pakistan Navy has tested one of our own weapon.


----------



## Arsalan

but PN may not be intrested in upgrading them as it will again involve US and now we are fine enough with original blkII and chines C802,803!

regards!


----------



## nomi007

p-8 is latest advance long range maritime security aircraft
where as p-3 is also advance but not like p-8
but for Pakistan p-3 is the best due to offensive position


----------



## Tajdar adil

P3C is an American and P 81 is ?


----------



## Vibs

As far as effectiveness against submarines and new weapon systems go p-8 wins. But given Pakistan's small coastline,p 3's should suffice. I mean they aren't facing each other. They are both trying to take out enemy Subs.


----------



## Markus

Tajdar adil said:


> P3C is an American and P 81 is ?


 
P8 is also American....


----------



## Markus

Capabilities-wise, P8i is superior but its more expensive too!

So again boils down to money.


----------



## I FLY HIGH

Romanch said:


> Has China developed or is developing a potent anti-submarine, ELINT military aircraft?


 
very good question? can anybody throw a light on it .


----------



## Vibs

I FLY HIGH said:


> very good question? can anybody throw a light on it .


 
I guess they have the y-8 series. Don't have too much details though.


----------



## Mo12

The price difference between the 2 planes are crazyly high.


----------



## DarK-LorD

Mo12 said:


> The price difference between the 2 planes are crazyly high.


That's because the capability difference between the 2 planes is crazily high.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SBD-3

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> That's because the capability difference between the 2 planes is crazily high.


 


> May 23, 2008: The U.S. and Indian navies will both receive the new American P-8 maritime reconnaissance aircraft at about the same time (2013-14). The Indians are getting eight P-8Is, which will be customized for Indian needs, and be slightly different than the P-8A the Americans will use.
> 
> 
> 
> The P-8A Poseidon is based on the widely used Boeing 737 airliner. Although the Boeing 737 based P-8A is a two engine jet, compared to the four engine turboprop P-3, it is a more capable plane. The P-8A has 23 percent more floor space than the P-3, and is larger (118 foot wingspan, versus 100 foot) and heavier (83 tons versus 61). Most other characteristics are the same. Both can stay in the air about ten hours per sortie. Speed is different. Cruise speed for the 737 is 910 kilometers an hour, versus 590 for the P-3. This makes it possible for the P-8A to get to a patrol area faster, which is a major advantage when chasing down subs first spotted by sonar arrays or satellites. However, the P-3 can carry more weapons (9 tons, versus 5.6.) This is less of a factor as the weapons (torpedoes, missiles, mines, sonobouys) are, pound for pound, more effective today and that trend continues. Both carry the same size crew, of 10-11 pilots and equipment operators. Both aircraft carry search radar and various other sensors.
> 
> 
> 
> The 737 has, like the P-3. been equipped with hard points on the wings for torpedoes or missiles. The B-737 is a more modern design, and has been used successfully since the 1960s by commercial aviation. Navy aviators are confident that it will be as reliable as the P-3 (which was based on the Electra civilian airliner that first flew in 1954, although only 170 were built, plus 600 P-3s. About 40 Electras are still in service). The Boeing 737 first flew in 1965, and over 5,000 have been built. The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.Naval Air: India Getting the P-8


The only added capability is more speed and bigger room. P-3 exceeds in Weapons load. Else than this both platforms are almost at par...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xracer2

p-8l is far better than ours p3 this is the truth

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tajdar adil

Markus said:


> Capabilities-wise, P8i is superior but its more expensive too!
> 
> So again boils down to money.


 
I have a question that why India want to destroy our P3C..


----------



## majesticpankaj

Tajdar adil said:


> I have a question that why India want to destroy our P3C..


 
India and Pakistan are enemy ..that's why


----------



## Tajdar adil

majesticpankaj said:


> India and Pakistan are enemy ..that's why


 
Yes we are enemy but Pakistan was not going to destroy an Indian jets so why India want to destroy our jets..


----------



## Vibs

Tajdar adil said:


> I have a question that why India want to destroy our P3C..


 
Who said anything about India wanting to destroy the P3C right now? In a war situation it becomes obvious but right now we are just comparing capabilities.


----------



## Last Hope

Xracer2 said:


> p-8l is far better than ours p3 this is the truth


Nothing in the world of micro-processors (science) is perfect nor it can be. Its the scenario, the requirements and the feasibility. P3Cs are near perfect for Pakistan seeing the size of its water boundary and price range. 11-13 PC3s in inventory are doing the job perfectly as of now. 


Tajdar adil said:


> I have a question that why India want to destroy our P3C..


That's not the question. A better question would be, the advantage of India through our destroyed P3Cs. It is the maritime patrol and ability to send submarines in the waters, within certain range or point.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Last Hope

s90 said:


> I was just thinking that can our ACLM Raad target a destroyer or a submarine?


Destroy a Submarine? Never can it do it! Destroyer? Nopes. We have got others for the purpose. Those are *Mk-46 · A244-S · ET-52C*. Pakistan has *Mk-46 · ET-52C · F17P Mod 2 · Tp 43X2 · A244-S · SUT Mod 2 · ECAN L5 Mod 3 · DM2A4 · ASROC · VL-ASROC* torpedos to target the Destroyers, that'll do work real fine.

Anyways, we are working on Naval versions of Babur.


----------



## MZUBAIR

So far we have 2-3 P3, which ofcourse is an edge on the Indian Navy but not enough.

When India will get P8 _[cant get before 2015, Standard P8 will be intriduced in 2013, P8I will be in 2015 and the time of maufacturing and delivery & training of P8I to Indin Navy would take 2-3 more years.....overall IN will get them opertional after 2018]_, ofcurse they will get edge in quality and quantity both.

But we have enough time ........8 years long period

---------- Post added at 05:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------




Last Hope said:


> Destroy a Submarine? Never can it do it! Destroyer? Nopes. We have got others for the purpose. Those are *Mk-46 · A244-S · ET-52C*. Pakistan has *Mk-46 · ET-52C · F17P Mod 2 · Tp 43X2 · A244-S · SUT Mod 2 · ECAN L5 Mod 3 · DM2A4 · ASROC · VL-ASROC* torpedos to target the Destroyers, that'll do work real fine.
> 
> Anyways, we are working on *Naval versions of Babur*.



Naval versions will be launched from Submarines and Frigates for land targets not sea targets.


----------



## acetophenol

> When India will get P8 [cant get before 2015, Standard P8 will be intriduced in 2013



according to the latest reports,our p-8s will fly this month
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/128008-indian-navy-s-first-p-8i-fly-month.html


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

MZUBAIR said:


> So far we have 2-3 P3, which ofcourse is an edge on the Indian Navy but not enough.
> 
> When India will get P8 _[cant get before 2015, Standard P8 will be intriduced in 2013, P8I will be in 2015 and the time of maufacturing and delivery & training of P8I to Indin Navy would take 2-3 more years.....overall IN will get them opertional after 2018]_, ofcurse they will get edge in quality and quantity both.


The first P8I will get into IN in 2013 not in 2015 and in 2015 you should see all the eight P8-I's(use the link provided below).
The first batch of technicians and pilots may go there(U.S.A) as early as next year.
Don't make such ridiculous statements
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/9507-india-eyes-2b-defence-deal-us-p-8i-2.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SBD-3

acetophenol said:


> according to the latest reports,our p-8s will fly this month
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/128008-indian-navy-s-first-p-8i-fly-month.html


Even the prime customer USN's order is yet to be fulfilled and likely timeline for delivery to them is 2013 IMHO....


----------



## DelhiDareDevil

hasnain0099 said:


> Even the prime customer USN's order is yet to be fulfilled and likely timeline for delivery to them is 2013 IMHO....



I know, think its a ploy by USA, to try to please India, by making them the 1st nation to have it. If reports are true, it will be delivered this year.


----------



## Roybot

MZUBAIR said:


> *So far we have 2-3 P3, which ofcourse is an edge on the Indian Navy but not enough.*
> 
> When India will get P8 _[cant get before 2015, Standard P8 will be intriduced in 2013, P8I will be in 2015 and the time of maufacturing and delivery & training of P8I to Indin Navy would take 2-3 more years.....overall IN will get them opertional after 2018]_, ofcurse they will get edge in quality and quantity both.



Indian Navy has got *8 Tu-142 and 5 Ilyushin Il-38*. You talk like P-8I is the first ever anti submarine warfare to be inducted in the Indian Navy

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Abingdonboy

MZUBAIR said:


> So far we have 2-3 P3, which ofcourse is an edge on the Indian Navy but not enough.
> 
> When India will get P8 _[cant get before 2015, Standard P8 will be intriduced in 2013, P8I will be in 2015 and the time of maufacturing and delivery & training of P8I to Indin Navy would take 2-3 more years.....overall IN will get them opertional after 2018]_, ofcurse they will get edge in quality and quantity both.
> 
> But we have enough time ........8 years long period
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Naval versions will be launched from Submarines and Frigates for land targets not sea targets.



The first IN P-8I is to fly by the end of THIS month (Sept '11) and deliveries WILL commence 1st quarter of 2013 with all 8 (first batch) deliveries being made BY 2015. The technicians/pilots will all be fully trained and experienced with the P-8I from day 1 (2013) as the IN has commissioned state of the art simulators for pilots and crew and IN teams are set to commence training in US VERY soon. 



hasnain0099 said:


> Even the prime customer USN's order is yet to be fulfilled and likely timeline for delivery to them is 2013 IMHO....



As per the legally binding contract the IN will receive their P-8Is at the same time as USN receives theirs and IN's P-8s have already begun manufacturing. The USN plans to buy 200+ P-8s so of what you're saying is right (IN won't receive their P-8s till after all USN contract is fulfilled) then the IN will be waiting till at least 2022-which they are NOT. Boeing added this speedy delivery as a "sweetener" to help clinch the deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gessler

Roybot said:


> Indian Navy has got *8 Tu-142 and 5 Ilyushin Il-38*. You talk like P-8I is the first ever anti submarine warfare to be inducted in the Indian Navy



good one! he thinks he's the only one to have maritime patrol aircraft!!! hahah!!!!

those aircraft (Tu-142 & Il-38SD) are truely awesome planes! i wish we buy more of these...rumor was we're
buying up to 10 more Tu-142s, is it true?


----------



## Penguin

gessler said:


> good one! he thinks he's the only one to have maritime patrol aircraft!!! hahah!!!!
> 
> those aircraft (Tu-142 & Il-38SD) are truely awesome planes! i wish we buy more of these...rumor was we're
> buying up to 10 more Tu-142s, is it true?



So, you dig up an inactive thread dating back to 09-06-2011 to hurrah the fact that India has these planes (which are in fact the planes the P-8I will complement and eventually replace)



> The Indian Navy operates eight Tu-142 aircraft. _The aircraft was inducted into service in the year 1988._ Upgrading of the aircraft are taking place, which helps to extend the service life of the aircraft by sixteen years. One the upgraded aircraft has been handed over to the Indian Navy. The aircraft operates from INS Rajali and INS Hansa. Two Tu-142 aircraft are being fitted with the air launched version of the Brahmos. The aircraft will be the test platform for the Brahmos cruise missiles. The integration and tests of the missile is expected to be completed by 2010. The eight aircraft will be fitted with the Brahmos cruise missiles.
> ...
> P-8I Neptune: New Delhi and Boeing have inked a lucrative, $2.1 billion contract for the delivery of 12 P-8I Neptune sub hunters. _The new aircraft will replace a fleet of Russian-manufactured Tupolev-142M planes._ P-8I varies from the P-8A. The Magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) has been kept intact while an aft-mounted radar provides 360 degree aerial radar surveillance capability. The aircraft is being readied for debut flight


 Indian Naval Air Arm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also bharat-rakshak on Tupolev-Tu142m



> India received three ex-Soviet Naval Aviation Il-38s in 1977, with two more arriving in 1983. Indian modifications included fitting pylons to the fuselage side to carry the Sea Eagle Anti-ship missile
> ..
> The Il-38s of the Indian Navy have been sent back to Russia for upgrades. They will incorporate the new Sea Dragon avionic suite, incorporating a new radar, a Forward looking infrared (FLIR) turret under the nose and an electronic intelligence (ELINT) system housed in a box-like structure mounted on struts above the forward fuselage.[4] Three aircraft have been delivered to the Indian Navy. The new version is designated Il-38 SD.
> 
> There are reports of efforts towards adding the capability to fire the Indo-Russian Brahmos cruise missile from this aircraft. Mockups have been displayed with air-launched Brahmos attached to underwing pylons on the Indian Navy aircraft.


Ilyushin Il-38 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also bharat-rakshak on Illyushin-Il38

(hoping the references aren't considered against forum guidelines...)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lets not Forget Chinese platform that is under development 





Back to Discussion 






Pakistan has 8 P3Orions , which can carry Anti Submarine weapons 

*Also it is slower (Which is not bad thing as it allows to encircle a suspected Zone MUCH better ) as you know Submarines don't move very fast *, the speed for the plane is ideal for Naval operations - It just realized this , when noticing why USA has 130 P3C onions in its inventory 

Initially I was skeptic why its a propeller based plane why is it in service and then it MADE SENSE
and I laughed at the simplicity .. and realized , why this plane is such a great asset to not only target Ships but also Submarines 


It can carry missiles that can be ANTI SHIP 
It can carry weapons that can take out Submarines 

That is its intended role 

We have 8 of these wonderful planes these are more then enough for out needs and we got


Breguet Atlantic 2 of these extra babies







Posiden vs P3 Orion is 






vs 





If you put them against the head they will damage anyone ... as they both carry the same arms


But lets not count out





Best response against Posiden fleet is 
40 J11 for Pakistan Navy


----------



## T90TankGuy

i would also not forget that the IN will have close to 100 fighter planes too mate. not to mention the overall number of 500 aircrafts in the Navy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Alphacharlie

Best response against Posiden fleet is 
40 J11 for Pakistan Navy 

But Where is the Money!!

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------




jbgt90 said:


> i would also not forget that the IN will have close to 100 fighter planes too mate. not to mention the overall number of 500 aircrafts in the Navy



You forgot to mention IAF support to "The Navy"


----------



## Penguin

Why won't this thread DIE!?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Alphacharlie

Mr Penguin it wont die as Our Pakistani Friends believe Chinese support will come and the issue will become fare and square!!!


----------



## Johny D

its like comparing windows 98 with windows XP (i wont say vista or 7..I hate them!)....both are awesome OS and developed by the same company....


----------



## God of Death

Pak P-3 Orion vs India P-8I.

Is a useless thread as India's P-8I have everything that pakistani P-3 orion have and then loaded with the state of art next generation systems, technology and futuristic designs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

P3 ORION is called "The Hunter" for a reason

It earned the title due to its "Success and efficiency"


----------



## jackyy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> P3 ORION is called "The Hunter" for a reason
> 
> It earned the title due to its "Success and efficiency"



thats why U.S navy is switching to p8


----------

