# Retaking Kashmir after 70 years



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
Kashmiri will be freed inshallah







So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already

Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure

May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kashmir is ready to be freed











1-2 Million people are already with Pakistan
and they just need proper moral support to bring a permanent end to the Kashmir story









Anza force is ready but it will be Kashmiri people now in Anza Force (Kashmir)

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## mastaan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir is ready to be freed
> 
> 
> 1-2 Million people are already with Pakistan
> and they just need proper moral support to bring a permanent end to the Kashmir story
> 
> View attachment 541279
> 
> 
> Anza force is ready but it will Kashmiry people now in Anza Force



wasn't this strategy the basis of 1965 attempt? it didn't work and you think an incursion into India will lead to victory? and those tanks will enter india over haji pir?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This time we got 10 million population 100% ready

India has swallowed a porcupine

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## HalfMoon

mastaan said:


> wasn't this strategy the basis of 1965 attempt? it didn't work and you think an incursion into India will lead to victory? and those tanks will enter india over haji pir?



Today, Pakistan is stronger than India. So This is a golden opportunity and time for Pakistan to take Jammu & Kashmir from India. They would be fools if they do not do it now.

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## mastaan

HalfMoon said:


> Today, Pakistan is stronger than India. So This is a golden opportunity and time for Pakistan to take Jammu & Kashmir from India. They would be fools if they do not do it now.



How? rhetoric doesn't win wars, they just push the first line of attack to their glorious deaths..

Someone said.. those who do not remember their mistakes, are condemned to repeat it

also, does this thread have a relevance for a serious defence forum?

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## HalfMoon

mastaan said:


> How? rhetoric doesn't win wars, they just push the first line of attack to their glorious deaths..
> 
> Someone said.. those who do not remember their mistakes, are condemned to repeat it
> 
> also, does this thread have a relevance for a serious defence forum?



1) Pakistan is a nuclear power and has attained parity and surpassed India

2) Pakistan has support of all major powers of the world - US, China, Russia, UK etc.

3) Pakistan has support of the Islamic world

4) Pakistan Airforce has exponentially increased its strength while Indian Airforce has greatly depleted its strength

5) Pakistan military is well fed, equipped & trained while Indian military is ill equipped and is have tough time even finding good food to eat

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

10 Million Kashmiri will be given Anza and Baktar Shiken







Anza + Kashimir = Freedom

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## truthseeker2010

mastaan said:


> How? rhetoric doesn't win wars, they just push the first line of attack to their glorious deaths..
> 
> Someone said.. those who do not remember their mistakes, are condemned to repeat it
> 
> also, does this thread have a relevance for a serious defence forum?



Pakistan have learned from mistakes and it has also mastered the game india traditionally plays...................

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## mastaan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 10 Million Kashmiri will be given Anza and Baktar Shiken


you will post them by Indian post or airfreight them?

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## SorryNotSorry

HalfMoon said:


> Today, Pakistan is stronger than India. So This is a golden opportunity and time for Pakistan to take Jammu & Kashmir from India. They would be fools if they do not do it now.


In what measure is Pakistan stronger than India?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Every Kashmiri will be given 10 Missiles 

They will win their own freedom

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## HalfMoon

SorryNotSorry said:


> In what measure is Pakistan stronger than India?



Read here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/#post-11196263


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## mastaan

HalfMoon said:


> ed while Indian military is ill eq



Yeah, and I am madonna.. Don't understand the rhetoric here from the learned friend



truthseeker2010 said:


> Pakistan have learned from mistakes and it has also mastered the game india traditionally plays...................



I don't think i was taunting.. i don;t think Pakistan Army will look at this map and repeat their mistakes.. I never said that they will repeat 1965.. It was a mere reference

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Send message to modi , stop with his speeches , we are waiting for his action
Maa ka Doodh piya hai , to order ker

70 Saal se , drama kerta hai every election year

Option #1 Election and seperation by peaceful manner
Option #2 We go the Baktar Shiken + Anza strategy

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## SorryNotSorry

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir is ready to be freed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1-2 Million people are already with Pakistan
> and they just need proper moral support to bring a permanent end to the Kashmir story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 541279
> 
> 
> Anza force is ready but it will Kashmiry people now in Anza Force


Dude, do you realize the how large these advances are?
Assuming Pakistan has the ammo, money and manpower to pull off a multi year conflict against India- what about India’s retaliatory response?

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## mastaan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Every Kashmiri will be given 10 Missiles
> 
> They will win their own freedom


 Aaho... I am from the state... we say kashmiri karsi thus karsi (all a kashmiri can do is fart loudly)

Jokes apart... my apologies, i fell for this thread.. stopping posting now

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## Tshering22

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 10 Million Kashmiri will be given Anza and Baktar Shiken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anza + Kashimir = Freedom



You really are talking like Feng Leng.

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## Agha Sher

mastaan said:


> Aaho... I am from the state... we say kashmiri karsi thus karsi (all a kashmiri can do is fart loudly)
> 
> Jokes apart... my apologies, i fell for this thread.. stopping posting now



Really? People like those from Kashmir have been butchering your ancestors for thousands of years.

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## truthseeker2010

mastaan said:


> I don't think i was taunting.. i don;t think Pakistan Army will look at this map and repeat their mistakes.. I never said that they will repeat 1965.. It was a mere reference



Indian military knows far better about its own capability and pakistan army's evolution after 9/11.


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## maverick1977

Why would Hindus and a
Sikhs kill muslims, why so much hatred towards people who took care of u for 800 years 

http://muslimmirror.com/eng/jammu-m...e-killed-in-jammu-which-led-to-kashmir-issue/


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## HalfMoon

mastaan said:


> Yeah, and I am madonna.. Don't understand the rhetoric here from the learned friend



*Pakistan's sniper ops take a hit on Indian Army thanks to old guns, low ammo*

*http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...ake-a-hit-with-old-guns-low-ammo-1917833.html*

*Since the debacle of 1962, Indian defence gets lowest budgetary allocation

https://zeenews.india.com/blogs/sin...gets-lowest-budgetary-allocation-2078205.html

Indians supply modern combat boots to US army, but our soldiers use ‘130-year-old’ designs

https://theprint.in/governance/indi...-our-soldiers-use-130-year-old-designs/92733/

Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...strength-iaf-to-govt/articleshow/67665277.cms


Aero India opens today, IAF still staring down the barrel
Air Force operating at its lowest strength of 31 fighter squadrons

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/n...iaf-still-staring-down-the-barrel/731599.html

BSF jawan | Sometimes we have to sleep hungry












*

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## SorryNotSorry

HalfMoon said:


> 1) Pakistan is a nuclear power and has attained parity and surpassed India
> 
> 2) Pakistan has support of all major powers of the world - US, China, Russia, UK etc.
> 
> 3) Pakistan has support of the Islamic world
> 
> 4) Pakistan Airforce has exponentially increased its strength while Indian Airforce has greatly depleted its strength
> 
> 5) Pakistan military is well fed, equipped & trained while Indian military is ill equipped and is have tough time even finding good food to eat


1) you can’t exchange nukes and come out the winner. Not just Kashmir, the whole region will be lost. Maybe south-India survives
2) none of the world powers will support Pakistani aggression. Especially not the ones you mentioned besides China. You’ll have sanctions on you.
3) what has the Islamic world done for all the other Muslims in need? Use modern day examples of Palestine, Iraq, Syria. Heck you’re not even Arab.
4) wrong again.
5) the Indian forces today are the best trained and equipped they’ve been in decades. Look at how all the past wars went. The answer is clear.

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## Hayreddin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir is ready to be freed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1-2 Million people are already with Pakistan
> and they just need proper moral support to bring a permanent end to the Kashmir story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 541279
> 
> 
> Anza force is ready but it will Kashmiry people now in Anza Force



Respect your passion . But personally i think its not the right time yet . Atleast atltleast pakistan needs 10 more years of polictical and economical stability with full boost in economic progress , more strengthening in Armed forces in quality and quantity . Than pakistan can achieve what you are dreaming of . 
If pakistan has target to free kashmir folloing steps should be followed for atleast decade and thn u can give a strong blow to indians. 
1: Moral and military support to local kashmiri freedom struggle which is highly unlikely in current scenerio .
2: supporting and igniting other freedom movements already on fire in india .
3 : Tit for Tat now turns the table as India did in last 1 decade now pakistan do whatever it can to destablize india economically .
4 : stablize your own economy , kill the snakes within your ranks . 
5 :Built up stronh paramilitary force on the bases of light infantry commando battalian 30k to 40 k , highly trained to fight in mountain ranges , fully charged religiously with utmost passion to free kashmir . 
6 : Get support from china and bring them in confidence that free kashmir is necessary for CEPEC .

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## SorryNotSorry

Tshering22 said:


> You really are talking like Feng Leng.


you’re right. Feng pajjis identity has been revealed.

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## Gangetic

Kashmiris need to be armed with AKs, just like the original Americans were with muskets. If they are then we will have a militia force with hundreds of thousands of people ready to overthrow their occupiers.

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## HalfMoon

SorryNotSorry said:


> 1) you can’t exchange nukes and come out the winner. Not just Kashmir, the whole region will be lost. Maybe south-India survives



Pakistanis will risk Pakistan for Kashmir. The question is can India risk India for Kashmir. The answer is NO.



SorryNotSorry said:


> 2) none of the world powers will support Pakistani aggression. Especially not the ones you mentioned besides China. You’ll have sanctions on you.



All the power have been and are supporting Pakistan. Didn't you see the weak condemnation and actions after the Phulwama attack? 



SorryNotSorry said:


> 3) what has the Islamic world done for all the other Muslims in need? Use modern day examples of Palestine, Iraq, Syria. Heck you’re not even Arab.



Saudi Arabia has fully bailed out Pakistan to come of its financial troubles.



SorryNotSorry said:


> 4) wrong again.
> 
> 5) the Indian forces today are the best trained and equipped they’ve been in decades. Look at how all the past wars went. The answer is clear.



Read this Post.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-2#post-11196320

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kashmiri , Freedom Cavalry Arms


Every Kashmiri should be given 2 Anza Missiles , 2 Baktar Shikan and 3 AK-47 with ammo box
Self Defence Pistol

10 Million Kashmiri Pakistani Citizens , and we will have permanent solution on ground

Give out few of these as well

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## SorryNotSorry

HalfMoon said:


> Pakistanis will risk Pakistan for Kashmir. The question is can India risk India for Kashmir. The answer is NO.
> 
> 
> 
> All the power have been and are supporting Pakistan. Didn't you see the weak condemnation and actions after the Phulwama attack?
> 
> 
> 
> Saudi Arabia has fully bailed out Pakistan to come of its financial troubles.
> 
> 
> 
> Read this Post.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-2#post-11196320


I don’t blame you. Logic will not work here.
You live in a Pakistan centric alternate reality like many others here.
All out war is not a viable option anymore. Otherwise your generals would have done it already.

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## Muhammad Omar

Come on it's not gonna be easy to retake free Kashmir from India 

Millions will lose their lives the US China UN will jump in and both countries will have to move back on their current positions


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kashmiri are only being opressed because they don't have means to get their own freedom
(Freedom requirs weapons and hussle) and since election is not happening , the only other outcome is a final battle

They don't need

a) Recitation of verses
b) They don't need jalasa support promise
c) They don't need a hug
d) They don't need a UN , dinner party to discuss their future going on for 70 years

What they need is 3 things

a) Anza
b) Baktar Shiken
c) Lot of AK-47

And full fledged support

They will wipe out illegal indians from their own neighborhoods by their own internal justice system


Right now even a 95 year old man will pick up arms to get rid of India

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## HalfMoon

SorryNotSorry said:


> I don’t blame you. Logic will not work here.
> You live in a Pakistan centric alternate reality like many others here.
> All out war is not a viable option anymore. Otherwise your generals would have done it already.



When I showed you the facts and reality, all you could do was call me a Pakistani.


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## Zee-shaun

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
> Kashmiri will be freed inshallah
> 
> View attachment 541270
> 
> 
> So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already
> 
> Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure
> 
> May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face



We can certainly give them a bloody nose but at what cost? How many lives are we willing to sacrifice for another temp adventure which will not solve the Kashmir problem permanently as neither Pakistan nor India can be driven away by force.

We must defend ourselves when attacked and protect every inch of our territory but donot attack India unless you can sustain the assault and give them a dicisive defeat.

If i were Pak's PM, I would start a diplomatic war first and use the media like the west does to create narratives. The world has to know what's going on in IoK and the freedom movement is indigenous. so Pakistan can not always be blamed for all that goes wrong in India. Eversince 9/11 India has successfuly used the victim card and highjacked the term 'terrorism'. The world needs to be reminded that before terrorism there was an indigenous freedom movement based on supresseion and state sponsord atteocities in Kashmir. The world needs to ask why India, worlds largest democracy ia denying basic rights to the Kashmiris, censoring media and blocking access to foreign journalists.

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## SorryNotSorry

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmiri , Freedom Cavalry Arms
> 
> 
> Every Kashmiri should be given 2 Anza Missiles , 2 Baktar Shikan and 3 AK-47 with ammo box
> Self Defence Pistol
> 
> 10 Million Kashmiri Pakistani Citizens , and we will have permanent solution on ground



Dude, calm down. This “solution” is less likely than a nuclear war.



HalfMoon said:


> When I showed you the facts and reality, all you could do was call me a Pakistani.


May peace be upon you, irrespective of your nationality. 
There.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistani flag is already waving in Kashmiri people's hand

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## AfrazulMandal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
> Kashmiri will be freed inshallah
> 
> View attachment 541270
> 
> 
> So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already
> 
> Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure
> 
> May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face


What are you on?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

On a very realistic observation

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## mudas777

Lets not carried away with the hysteria of the war and the games leaders are playing for there own agendas. Regardless who wins or losses the war we still have to sit down and talk. Its just disgraceful to think of the leaders, they want to sit down after the war when they ran out of the manoeuvring room and on the mountain of poor soldiers bodies.

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## alphibeti

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
> Kashmiri will be freed inshallah
> 
> View attachment 541270
> 
> 
> So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already
> 
> Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure
> 
> May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face


You got it right man. Luck is giving us a golden chance. You cannot find a lower moral for Indian forces and highest moral for Pak forces. A determined local support in J&K and favorable global stage. All is set right. InshaAllah.



mudas777 said:


> Lets not carried away with the hysteria of the war and the games leaders are playing for there own agendas. Regardless who wins or losses the war we still have to sit down and talk. Its just disgraceful to think of the leaders, they want to sit down after the war when they ran out of the manoeuvring room and on the mountain of poor soldiers bodies.


For how long? Another 70 years? Let me tell you this: no talks, or agreements - bilateral or international -, no resolutions, appeals, requests, and friendship will force Indians to leave occupied J&K. These animals understand one and only one thing and that is might. You resort to that today, tomorrow, next year, after a decade or after a century, but you have to do that. Their is no other nation as sick-minded as Indians. It is a disgrace that a known murderer was elected their PM just because he killed minorities especially Muslims. No where else in world you'll find that. Such a sick-minded people are a shame for humanity. But we have to fight back for our own survival.

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## niao78

alphibeti said:


> You got it right man. Luck is giving us a golden chance. You cannot find a lower moral for Indian forces and highest moral for Pak forces. A determined local support in J&K and favorable global stage. All is set right. InshaAllah.
> 
> 
> For how long? Another 70 years? Let me tell you this: no talks, or agreements - bilateral or international -, no resolutions, appeals, requests, and friendship will force Indians to leave occupied J&K. These animals understand one and only one thing and that is might. You resort to that today, tomorrow, next year, after a decade or after a century, but you have to do that. Their is no other nation as sick-minded as Indians. It is a disgrace that a known murderer was elected their PM just because he killed minorities especially Muslims. No where else in world you'll find that. Such a sick-minded people are a shame for humanity. But we have to fight back for our own survival.





alphibeti said:


> You got it right man. Luck is giving us a golden chance. You cannot find a lower moral for Indian forces and highest moral for Pak forces. A determined local support in J&K and favorable global stage. All is set right. InshaAllah.
> 
> 
> For how long? Another 70 years? Let me tell you this: no talks, or agreements - bilateral or international -, no resolutions, appeals, requests, and friendship will force Indians to leave occupied J&K. These animals understand one and only one thing and that is might. You resort to that today, tomorrow, next year, after a decade or after a century, but you have to do that. Their is no other nation as sick-minded as Indians. It is a disgrace that a known murderer was elected their PM just because he killed minorities especially Muslims. No where else in world you'll find that. Such a sick-minded people are a shame for humanity. But we have to fight back for our own survival.



As most Pakistani says here they defeated super power in afghanistan. US spent trillion dollar still couldn’t win. Yes but they won’t kill irony and will get Kashmir by mere 11 billion dollar budget. Yes good luck with you guys are showing supper intelligence.
It’s for valley only where you will get militants support forget about getting support else where in Kashmir. And yes you guys have money to spend on war right ? Please be our guest and get Kashmir.
Let me tell you few simple logic.
1. Our budget allocations is low but it’s still much more than your country, and what do you think we will be in war in still keep on spending same?
2. We have enough forex reserve surplus to spend on how you guys gonna afford war.
3. Indian army is relatively strong and indian navy is far superior. We may not have as surplus aircraft as we had but what our navy will be doing watching show? good luck with fighting indian navy.
4. What kind support you’re talking about? USA please they didn’t pay your so called expenses on war against terrorism. Or didn’t even give you cheap f16. Good luck with getting spares for it.
Russia? Just getting military exercise will make them support you ? Lol yeah and they will support you against their biggest military hardware buyer. 
5.So called islamic world support? Each islamic country has own agend all they can do is give you some funds that’s it. 
Don’t forget weaker IAF still stronger than PAF in terms of numbers and equipment. 
6. Nuclear will be suicide for Pakistan let me tell you one thing both country will eventually blow each other but will land size of India there will be still some india left, can’t say same for Pakistan.
I still have one question how you guys gonna afford a war ? money you guys received is to pay existing loan it’s not gonna stay in bank to use. 
Only thing Pakistan really capable of is proxy war. Yes ISI is capable of doing some terror attack but good luck with winning war. 
Also i am also aware of that fighting Pakistan will cost India a lot and it won’t consider as victory but don’t thing like you guys gonna crush india have some brain.

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## YeBeWarned

if War breaks out it will be on Kashmiri's to decide their Future .. Pakistan can not go deep inside Kashmir to claim overall victory, their Independence is dependent on their response , if they betray Pakistan like 65, than they should be ready for another century of slavery .

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## aziqbal

its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons 

the border is impossible to cross 

700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up 

highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine 

only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East

also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air 

that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East

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## Mace

aziqbal said:


> its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons
> 
> the border is impossible to cross
> 
> 700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up
> 
> highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine
> 
> only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East
> 
> also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air
> 
> that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East



You are assuming the rest of the civilised world will keep quiet . Chinese are not that dumb either 

India on its part will make a small change of scrapping NFU.


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## itsanufy

aziqbal said:


> its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons
> 
> the border is impossible to cross
> 
> 700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up
> 
> highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine
> 
> only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East
> 
> also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air
> 
> that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East


Why China will fight your war?

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## mastaan

aziqbal said:


> its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons
> 
> the border is impossible to cross
> 
> 700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up
> 
> highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine
> 
> only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East
> 
> also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air
> 
> that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East



You realize the imporobables that will be needed to be true- china has spare carrier group, to come through to bay of bengal? and they will go to war with India for pakistan? and they will mobilize land and water resources on their easten side, because?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since innocent population is encircled by India soldiers against their wish

Pakistan has to free them if that is what it will take to grant them freedom
It is very simple ....we can't let 6-10 Million Kashmiri Muslims be stuck in this situation







Supply for Good Citiens of Pakistan's Kashmir
Just need a supply route open once the Kashmiri population have the weapons to defend themselves

They will take their own freedom from dogs by their own hands
















Easy weapon for Kashmiri people's freedom






Just wait and move

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## Army research

aziqbal said:


> its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons
> 
> the border is impossible to cross
> 
> 700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up
> 
> highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine
> 
> only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East
> 
> also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air
> 
> that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East


Only way as of now , also China should increase air act and sortie rate in tibet and arunachal, ac fleet in IO , that way pakistan will have parity ish and a good fight with local iok resistance

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

10,000,000 Million Kashmiri

fighting for their Rights to live !!!
fighting for Right to be connected to Pakistan!!!
fighting for right to live their lives with no fear

Odd 100,000 soldiers just there to do a job they will run as soon as the Kashmiri stars to beat them up in streets, they are there only becasue some indian politicians told them to go and beat up people with rods or sticks or punches and kicks


Indians will run for cover as soon as they will face an armed resistance






All of the valley is ground level route

An average Pakistani population can just walk there or take a taxi and get there in *30 minutes 
*
In 30 minutes 10 million Pakistani citizens can flood the area forget about Pakistani Army 

+10,000,000 Million Kashmiri Pakistani Citizens (Indian forced imprisonment)
+10,000,000 Million Pakistani Citizens 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20,000,000 Million Freedom Force

Pakistani Army is extra on the side

Already the largest Army ever assembled


We can get to Kashmir in 30 minutes
Modi can get in plane and it will take him 4 hours to get there from his Delhi

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## third eye

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
> Kashmiri will be freed inshallah
> 
> View attachment 541270
> 
> 
> So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already
> 
> Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure
> 
> May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face


How show does one “retake” something you never ‘took’ ?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Dekh le

100,000 people just show up in Pakistan like this may be this is just 75,000 people

1 Twitter !!! Call











10,000,000 Million Junooni Pakistani imagine ker le

Pindi to Srinagar will pack the roads up 

In 30 Minutes 10 Million Pakistani will reach Kashmiri Brothers help by street , and walking or taxi or bus

We will Walk by Ground ....on foot and break every barrier we will encounter till we will unite with our brothers in Kashmir


You can forget about Pakistan Army
You can forget about Chinese Army

First it will be the flood of people from Pakistan
second it will be Kashmiri people themselves that will burn down every India outpost


When Jaslsa wala Qadri says , CHLO kashmir
We will all chalo Kashmir







Pakistani Chappal uttar ker Indian Soldier ki Phanti lage gi
Nuclear war head bhool ja , Pakistani Nuclear Chappal se so damage hogo Indian soldier
zindagi bhar yar rakhe ga

How many bullet will that Indian soldier have 20-30 rounds ?

Pistol = 6 Bullet
AK-47 = 30 shots


This is just the Tsunami which will come from Pakistan Ab Imagine ker le
Kashmiri themselves who will rise up

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## qamar1990

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Dekh le
> 
> 100,000 people just show up in Pakistan like this may be this is just 75,000 people
> 
> 1 Twitter !!! Call
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10,000,000 Million Junooni Pakistani imagine ker le
> 
> Pindi to Srinagar will pack the roads up
> 
> In 30 Minutes 10 Million Pakistani will reach Kashmiri Brothers help by street , and walking or taxi or bus
> 
> We will Walk by Ground ....on foot and break every barrier we will encounter till we will unite with our brothers in Kashmir
> 
> 
> You can forget about Pakistan Army
> You can forget about Chinese Army
> 
> First it will be the flood of people from Pakistan
> second it will be Kashmiri people themselves that will burn down every India outpost
> 
> 
> When Jaslsa wala Qadri says , CHLO kashmir
> We will all chalo Kashmir
> 
> View attachment 541360
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Chappal uttar ker Indian Soldier ki Phanti lage gi
> Nuclear war head bhool ja , Pakistani Nuclear Chappal se so damage hogo Indian soldier
> zindagi bhar yar rakhe ga
> 
> How many bullet will that Indian soldier have 20-30 rounds ?
> 
> Pistol = 6 Bullet
> AK-47 = 30 shots
> 
> 
> This is just the Tsunami which will come from Pakistan Ab Imagine ker le
> Kashmiri themselves who will rise up


stop it bro....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I am 100% for Freedom for Kashmiri people for reuniting with Pakistan
100% clear on it

Only a Flood of people going from Pakistan to Kashmiri will resolve this once and for all
8-10 million people held hostage by random Indian force enough of that none sense

Freedom is always won !! if it can't be attained by discussion

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## Talwar e Pakistan

mastaan said:


> wasn't this strategy the basis of 1965 attempt? it didn't work and you think an incursion into India will lead to victory? and those tanks will enter india over haji pir?


Things are much different now. Back then people of Kashmir did not really feel India's presence, they were not politically aware; to them, there was no world outside of Kashmir. 

It was during the 1980's that Kashmir saw an era of political awareness and national reawakening.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

India has no moral ground to hold 8-10 million people hostage
They never wanted to be part of this so called happy india 70 years ago and nothing has changed it is 2019

It is time they moved on or face people's will for freedom

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## Crixus

Its been more then 30 mins now , have you reached Srinagar ???



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Dekh le
> 
> 100,000 people just show up in Pakistan like this may be this is just 75,000 people
> 
> 1 Twitter !!! Call
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10,000,000 Million Junooni Pakistani imagine ker le
> 
> Pindi to Srinagar will pack the roads up
> 
> In 30 Minutes 10 Million Pakistani will reach Kashmiri Brothers help by street , and walking or taxi or bus
> 
> We will Walk by Ground ....on foot and break every barrier we will encounter till we will unite with our brothers in Kashmir
> 
> 
> You can forget about Pakistan Army
> You can forget about Chinese Army
> 
> First it will be the flood of people from Pakistan
> second it will be Kashmiri people themselves that will burn down every India outpost
> 
> 
> When Jaslsa wala Qadri says , CHLO kashmir
> We will all chalo Kashmir
> 
> View attachment 541360
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Chappal uttar ker Indian Soldier ki Phanti lage gi
> Nuclear war head bhool ja , Pakistani Nuclear Chappal se so damage hogo Indian soldier
> zindagi bhar yar rakhe ga
> 
> How many bullet will that Indian soldier have 20-30 rounds ?
> 
> Pistol = 6 Bullet
> AK-47 = 30 shots
> 
> 
> This is just the Tsunami which will come from Pakistan Ab Imagine ker le
> Kashmiri themselves who will rise up

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I will let you know once you finish collecting the bones of your 50 Gangsters , did your crew get to them first or did the dogs in the streets had a big all you can eat

If the dogs got to them first we need to provide medicine for these poor animals , they must have a bad stomach ache

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## Jackdaws

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I will let you know once you finish collecting the bones of your 50 Gangsters , did your crew get to them first or did the dogs in the streets had a big all you can eat
> 
> If the dogs got to them first we need to provide medicine for these poor animals , they must have a bad stomach ache


Nah. We don't leave our martys' bodies behind. That's exclusively your domain.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Oh such brave souls Mr Indians can only feel big beating up unarmed civilians now they are ...martys'

When was the last times these martys' actually faced someone their own size (armed)

The people are not yours
The land is not yours
And the culture is not yours

but ...the brave gangsters are there ...to beat up people ..... to feel good ..

They must have been looking so forward to going back home after beating up countless people on streets....finally they will go home , talk big about their stories and then KABAAAAAAAAAAAAM .......dog food. Hopefully no one was waiting for these criminals ....

it's not like someone important is missing just some odd 50 losers beating up on unarmed civilians

tch tch tch how pathetic is that , like you leave your own home , and the go into some peaceful town in Pakistan's Kashmir , which is occupied by India and then you beat up un armed citizens

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

mastaan said:


> wasn't this strategy the basis of 1965 attempt? it didn't work and you think an incursion into India will lead to victory? and those tanks will enter india over haji pir?


The strategy could not have worked then as people then but now that more than 100k people have been killed by Indian army and thousand blinded, it will work.

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## Crixus

Man don't irritate him he is about to reach Srinagar ..... may be taking some rest on his way otherwise he should be there by now 


Jackdaws said:


> Nah. We don't leave our martys' bodies behind. That's exclusively your domain.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Impact of fire on martys'






Bye bye toys / pawns


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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmiri are only being opressed because they don't have means to get their own freedom
> (Freedom requirs weapons and hussle) and since election is not happening , the only other outcome is a final battle
> 
> They don't need
> 
> a) Recitation of verses
> b) They don't need jalasa support promise
> c) They don't need a hug
> d) They don't need a UN , dinner party to discuss their future going on for 70 years


They don't need recitation of verses ? are you sure ? 
In you strategy the first steps is to put the Koran(divine help from God, prayers, dua) aside and out of the equation. Wow !



> What they need is 3 things
> 
> a) Anza
> b) Baktar Shiken
> c) Lot of AK-47
> 
> And full fledged support
> 
> They will wipe out illegal indians from their own neighborhoods by their own internal justice system
> 
> 
> Right now even a 95 year old man will pick up arms to get rid of India



Mate, who will train them on ATGM and SAM ? how will you replenish the missiles ? How will you replace losses ?
You want the whole world to get on Pakistan's nerves after Anza and HJ-8 is discovered inside Indian Kashmir ?

Weapons don't win freedom, Pakistan didn't win freedom in 1947 through weaponisation of muslims in India.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Survival forces you to learn fast

 Indians who read my message knows what it means once

Rifles / Anza or Baktar Shiken gets in hand of Kashmiri

This whole , unarmed civilians vs Armed thugs can't go on
This whole drama will end in 3-5 weeks max

While India has run away from solution for 70 years, the only language they understand is the language of Riles /Anza and Baktar Shiken



Signalian said:


> They don't need recitation of verses ? are you sure ?
> In you strategy the first steps is to put the Koran(divine help from God, prayers, dua) aside and out of the equation. Wow !
> 
> 
> 
> Mate, who will train them on ATGM and SAM ? how will you replenish the missiles ? How will you replace losses ?
> You want the whole world to get on Pakistan's nerves after Anza and HJ-8 is discovered inside Indian Kashmir ?
> 
> Weapons don't win freedom, Pakistan didn't win freedom in 1947 through weaponisation of muslims in India.



It's a war , you need weapons to fight a battle not books and prayers
You do your prayers once you are at peace



Signalian said:


> They don't need recitation of verses ? are you sure ?
> In you strategy the first steps is to put the Koran(divine help from God, prayers, dua) aside and out of the equation. Wow !
> 
> 
> 
> Mate, who will train them on ATGM and SAM ? how will you replenish the missiles ? How will you replace losses ?
> You want the whole world to get on Pakistan's nerves after Anza and HJ-8 is discovered inside Indian Kashmir ?
> 
> Weapons don't win freedom, Pakistan didn't win freedom in 1947 through weaponisation of muslims in India.




And stop being timid


USA got freedom after a internal civil bloody war
France got liberated by external help
Egypt freed it's occupied lands by Military action
China's growth happened due to wars
Turkey is standing because it's own people made a last stand they stood back up from ashes

It was rare that Pakistan got freedom from British but it was due to world war 2 so indirectly war was involved
and soliders and forces did participate in that war to indirectly impact decisions

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## sathya

Lol i thought india retaking Po K.

Double edged title.

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## Crixus

Its been 3 hours no one reached Srinagar ................

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## Hiptullha

Crixus said:


> Its been 3 hours no one reached Srinagar ................



40 H's are being cooked alive in a burning place somewhere underground right now. Shouldn't India be doing something about them instead of waiting for troops to come to Srinagar?

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## Krptonite

Signalian said:


> They don't need recitation of verses ? are you sure ?
> In you strategy the first steps is to put the Koran(divine help from God, prayers, dua) aside and out of the equation. Wow !
> 
> 
> 
> Mate, who will train them on ATGM and SAM ? how will you replenish the missiles ? How will you replace losses ?
> You want the whole world to get on Pakistan's nerves after Anza and HJ-8 is discovered inside Indian Kashmir ?
> 
> Weapons don't win freedom, Pakistan didn't win freedom in 1947 through weaponisation of muslims in India.


@Signalian used logic......
Its not very effective

All the nitty gritties aside, can all those advocating supplying arms actually explain _HOW they plan to do so? _Or is Lollywood catching up.

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## IceCold

If war is to begin ever, it should not end before Kashmir is liberated from India. Only than be the future generations be at ease.

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## Jackdaws

Hiptullha said:


> 40 H's are being cooked alive in a burning place somewhere underground right now. Shouldn't India be doing something about them instead of waiting for troops to come to Srinagar?



I am sure such scoot and shoot tactics make you feel very brave. But we've seen your "ability" in open warfare.

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## Jugger

HalfMoon said:


> Today, Pakistan is stronger than India.


 Noob..!
Any general with even basic IQ will not want a conflict with India ATM.
New members like you say anything that comes to your mind.

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## Crixus

Dont worry we will choose the time and place .................... we are in no hurry to avenge their death


Hiptullha said:


> 40 H's are being cooked alive in a burning place somewhere underground right now. Shouldn't India be doing something about them instead of waiting for troops to come to Srinagar?



Some Iranian mentioned in response to Pakistani Nukes threat to then as ..... the only military record Pakistan holds is the quickest surrender in the world


Jackdaws said:


> I am sure such scoot and shoot tactics make you feel very brave. But we've seen your "ability" in open warfare.

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## scorpionx

For India, any solution of Kashmir apart from present status quo is not acceptable. Given Pakistan's financial precariousness and internal political turmoil, its upcoming severe water crisis, I see such face lifting threads quite justified. Keep going. Now, please dont reply to this one with CPEC and Nasr, please. That does not amuse me anymore.



Jugger said:


> Noob..!
> Any general with even basic IQ will not want a conflict with India ATM.
> New members like you say anything that comes to your mind.


He is just being sarcastic.

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## Riz

mastaan said:


> you will post them by Indian post or airfreight them?


 Its alot easier to panitrate 4 layer defence of hanumans aemy rather then airfreight... Now salute your soldeirs quality, quantity and sing vande motram..


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## HAIDER

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 10 Million Kashmiri will be given Anza and Baktar Shiken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anza + Kashimir = Freedom


Pakistan learn the real art of war after WOT. This is the war where all Gen and coming Gen serve on the ground and they saw there comrades dying in arms.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Khalistan and Kashmir, Buy one get one free.

Force India to fight Sikhs and Kashmiris at the same time. Get support from China in Ladakh to hunt Tibetan refugees. Surround Jammu settler population and repatriate them to India after the war.

We will need a large number of irregular fighters, Afghan, former FATA, Baloch, and local Kashmiris to move quick and fast.

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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It's a war , you need weapons to fight a battle not books and prayers
> You do your prayers once you are at peace


You are severely confused about prayers.



> And stop being timid
> 
> 
> USA got freedom after a internal civil bloody war
> France got liberated by external help
> Egypt freed it's occupied lands by Military action
> China's growth happened due to wars
> Turkey is standing because it's own people made a last stand they stood back up from ashes


Palestinians, chechens, bosinaks, Uyghur, rohingya etc. Are they timid ? 
Freedom doesn't come through weapons.



> It was rare that Pakistan got freedom from British but it was due to world war 2 so indirectly war was involved
> and soliders and forces did participate in that war to indirectly impact decisions



You so magnificently shoved aside Jinnah, discrediting him in an instant.

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## Taimur Khurram

Agha Sher said:


> Really? People like those from Kashmir have been butchering your ancestors for thousands of years.



Oof.

Anyway, the best strategy would be to create a massive uprising, and then conquer the chaotic land when India is forced to leave it due to the cost of occupying Kashmir being too much to bear. 

This should be our strategy. We should also support other independence movements in India.

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## niao78

Taimur Khurram said:


> Oof.
> 
> Anyway, the best strategy would be to create a massive uprising, and then conquer the chaotic land when India is forced to leave it due to the cost of occupying Kashmir being too much to bear.
> 
> This should be our strategy. We should also support other independence movements in India.


Please support at least yout own finances.


----------



## atya

So has Modi backed down or is this fake news?


----------



## Joe Shearer

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Send message to modi , stop with his speeches , we are waiting for his action
> Maa ka Doodh piya hai , to order ker
> 
> 70 Saal se , drama kerta hai every election year
> 
> Option #1 Election and seperation by peaceful manner
> Option #2 We go the Baktar Shiken + Anza strategy



How many years have you been listening to Modi's speeches? What is your rank in the Pakistan armed forces? Did a top general help you with your brilliant Bakhtar Shikan and Anza strategy, or was it all by yourself?



SorryNotSorry said:


> Dude, do you realize the how large these advances are?
> Assuming Pakistan has the ammo, money and manpower to pull off a multi year conflict against India- what about India’s retaliatory response?



Didn't you know? One Pakistani is equal to ten Indians. 

You must learn arithmetic before you comment on military matters.



Agha Sher said:


> Really? People like those from Kashmir have been butchering your ancestors for thousands of years.



Like what, specifically? Dardic speaking people? Or pheran wearing people? Shawl-makers and sellers?

What did you mean by that, if you don't mind sharing your thought processes?



Muhammad Omar said:


> Come on it's not gonna be easy to retake free Kashmir from India
> 
> Millions will lose their lives the US China UN will jump in and both countries will have to move back on their current positions



Nice thread on a Sunday, and you have to step in and pour cold water on it. That's pretty mean of you.



AfrazulMandal said:


> What are you on?



I support free speech!

আরে চলুক না কিছুক্ষণ!



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> On a very realistic observation



.....and galloping faster every minute.

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## ice_man

Joe Shearer said:


> How many years have you been listening to Modi's speeches? What is your rank in the Pakistan armed forces? Did a top general help you with your brilliant Bakhtar Shikan and Anza strategy, or was it all by yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you know? One Pakistani is equal to ten Indians.
> 
> You must learn arithmetic before you comment on military matters.
> 
> 
> 
> Like what, specifically? Dardic speaking people? Or pheran wearing people? Shawl-makers and sellers?
> 
> What did you mean by that, if you don't mind sharing your thought processes?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice thread on a Sunday, and you have to step in and pour cold water on it. That's pretty mean of you.
> 
> 
> 
> I support free speech!
> 
> আরে চলুক না কিছুক্ষণ!
> 
> 
> 
> .....and galloping faster every minute.



its Ok Joe we will take kashmir today install ZAID HAMID as its Chief Minister. and then on monday we will go back to work. 

enjoy your weekend. and let the trolls troll each other. don't read to much into trolls on both side.

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## Vapnope

And kids sitting in their drawing rooms who have no prior military experience neither a formal education in war fighting would change demographics using their military strategies. There is no military solution to Kashmir in the present status quo and i don't see it changing in coming decades. The senseless bloodshed will make things bitter for Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians as well. 
I hope some people in Pakistan and India are thinking about Kashmir not as a gold pot but as people with Land who have emotions and rights.

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## Joe Shearer

aziqbal said:


> its very difficult if not impossible to supply Kashmir with advanced weapons
> 
> the border is impossible to cross
> 
> 700,000 Indian soldiers with 2 Corps in reserve to follow up
> 
> highest density of foreign forces per civilian in the world even more that Palestine
> 
> only way is to split the Indian defences by asking China to move a land army in the East
> 
> also China sends carrier group in Bay of Bengal and forces India to mobilise on two fronts on land, sea and air
> 
> that way they have to fight Pakistan, hold Kashmir and tie down dozens of Indian divisions in the East



You are an analyst. Right. Let's start with your specialisation.

Organised formations in Northern Command:
XIV Corps
3rd Infantry Division (Leh)
8th Infantry Division (Kargil)
Independent formations
102nd Independent Infantry Brigade


XV Corps
19th Infantry Division (Baramulla)
28th Infantry Division (Gurez)
Independent formations
() Artillery Brigade


XVI Corps
10th Infantry Division (Akhnoor)
25th Infantry Division (Rajauri)
39th Infantry Division (Yol)


Separated out of Northern Command, assigned to Western Command
9 Corps (they like to write their name this way, I have no idea why)
26th Infantry Division (Jammu)
29th Infantry Division (Pathankot)
Independent formations
2nd Independent Armoured Brigade
3rd Independent Armoured Brigade
16th Independent Armoured Brigade


Other formations in Western Command

Summary: Out of the three Corps stationed north of Jammu, one (XIV) is concentrated on the LAC, monitoring the working border with the PLA, guarding the Kargil stretch and manning the outposts on Siachen. They are not involved in the Valley at all.

Another (XV) is in Baramula and Gurez, this is the only Corps in the Valley, and has two Infantry Divisions and an independent Artillery Brigade reporting to it. You can do the numbers I am sure.

A third is in the foothills and the hilly tracts of Himachal Pradesh, watching the Jammu Tawi border near Akhnoor, that already had been attacked by the Pakistan Army twice, in 1965 and in 1971. 

Besides this, there are 65 battalions of RR.

These are all the military forces deployed; there are ad hoc deputations of CAPF (Central Armed Police Forces) from time to time; their strength has very recently been augmented by 10,000 constables recently. Of these, the CRPF and BSF are on duty in J&K.

I hope you will be able to put these numbers together, and will realise the absurdity of the number of Indian servicemen reported to be on duty in J&K, without my intervention.

@Vibrio -FYI
@jbgt90 - the millionth time either Vibrio or I have made these summaries.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Since innocent population is encircled by India soldiers against their wish
> 
> Pakistan has to free them if that is what it will take to grant them freedom
> It is very simple ....we can't let 6-10 Million Kashmiri Muslims be stuck in this situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supply for Good Citiens of Pakistan's Kashmir
> Just need a supply route open once the Kashmiri population have the weapons to defend themselves
> 
> They will take their own freedom from dogs by their own hands
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy weapon for Kashmiri people's freedom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just wait and move



Why don't you volunteer? Before deciding, check the average life-span of the infiltrator after infiltration.

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## AfrazulMandal

Joe Shearer said:


> আরে চলুক না কিছুক্ষণ!


Gajar otirikto bebohar khotikarok.


----------



## Joe Shearer

qamar1990 said:


> stop it bro....



Please!

Don't stop him.



AfrazulMandal said:


> Gajar otirikto bebohar khotikarok.





You can be punishing!

যত কিছু নিন্দা করে থাকি অতীতে, তার জন্যে ক্ষমা চাইছি! এই একটি পোস্ট-ই ৭০ ক্ষুন মাফ। এখন থেকে আমি ভক্ত হোলাম। 



Crixus said:


> Its been more then 30 mins now , have you reached Srinagar ???



He's preparing for it, looking for his water bottle with glucose, glares, his sola topee, his hiking boots and sunblock.



Qutb-ud-din Aybak said:


> The strategy could not have worked then as people then but now that more than 100k people have been killed by Indian army and thousand blinded, it will work.



You're joining the March of a Million, too?



Hiptullha said:


> 40 H's are being cooked alive in a burning place somewhere underground right now. Shouldn't India be doing something about them instead of waiting for troops to come to Srinagar?



No. That's only for Pakistanis.



Taimur Khurram said:


> Oof.
> 
> Anyway, the best strategy would be to create a massive uprising, and then conquer the chaotic land when India is forced to leave it due to the cost of occupying Kashmir being too much to bear.
> 
> This should be our strategy. We should also support other independence movements in India.



Write about them in your blog.

That way we'll get some peace and quiet.



niao78 said:


> Please support at least yout own finances.



He won't. Nothing heroic about it. Look at him, sweating it out in a power-cut, fighting the good fight to the last bit, unafraid of the onrushing hordes as he rotates easily from target to target - oh, sorry, wrong video game.


----------



## Skies

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What they need is 3 things
> 
> a) Anza
> b) Baktar Shiken
> c) Lot of AK-47
> 
> And full fledged support



The iron is hot now, so hit it.

Also need a #FreeKashmir universal fund so that all the Muslims can give money from anywhere and anonymously.

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> Separated out of Northern Command, assigned to Western Command
> 9 Corps (they like to write their name this way, I have no idea why)
> 26th Infantry Division (Jammu)
> 29th Infantry Division (Pathankot)
> Independent formations
> 2nd Independent Armoured Brigade
> 3rd Independent Armoured Brigade
> 16th Independent Armoured Brigade
> 
> 
> Other formations in Western Command


Im assuming that these 3 independent formations are present in the area to take on 6th Armd Div of PA.

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## Joe Shearer

ice_man said:


> its Ok Joe we will take kashmir today install ZAID HAMID as its Chief Minister. and then on monday we will go back to work.
> 
> enjoy your weekend. and let the trolls troll each other. don't read to much into trolls on both side.



Arre, yaar! Sunday, bukhar charhi hai, leta huwa hun, kam se kam in sare chize se to apne ko bahlata rahun!

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## mastaan

Joe Shearer said:


> Please!
> 
> Don't stop him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can be punishing!
> 
> যত কিছু নিন্দা করে থাকি অতীতে, তার জন্যে ক্ষমা চাইছি! এই একটি পোস্ট-ই ৭০ ক্ষুন মাফ। এখন থেকে আমি ভক্ত হোলাম।
> 
> 
> 
> He's preparing for it, looking for his water bottle with glucose, glares, his sola topee, his hiking boots and sunblock.
> 
> 
> 
> You're joining the March of a Million, too?
> 
> 
> 
> No. That's only for Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> 
> Write about them in your blog.
> 
> That way we'll get some peace and quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> He won't. Nothing heroic about it. Look at him, sweating it out in a power-cut, fighting the good fight to the last bit, unafraid of the onrushing hordes as he rotates easily from target to target - oh, sorry, wrong video game.



Legend !!!


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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> Im assuming that these 3 independent formations are present in the area to take on 6th Armd Div of PA.



Yes, well, I think the thinking is that a push by a full Armoured Division against Infantry Divisions will need armoured back-up. So these are attached to that Corps, to be diverted wherever there is pressure. I suspect the thinking is two up, one down, keep that brigade in reserve until it is clear where the opposition is concentrating.

Note also that all the other divisions (XIV, XV and XVI Corps) are straight infantry; even in Aksai Chin, _nothing, no armour, is listed_.

RR is even more CI oriented; no company level heavy weapons even.



Signalian said:


> Im assuming that these 3 independent formations are present in the area to take on 6th Armd Div of PA.



You're on the ball, no doubt about it!




​

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Vapnope said:


> And kids sitting in their drawing rooms who have no prior military experience neither a formal education in war fighting would change demographics using their military strategies. There is no military solution to Kashmir in the present status quo and i don't see it changing in coming decades. The senseless bloodshed will make things bitter for Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians as well.
> I hope some people in Pakistan and India are thinking about Kashmir not as a gold pot but as people with Land who have emotions and rights.



It is the only way to secure the lives, property, and dignity of Kashmiris.

Kashmiris will rise up en masse, followed by Indian brutality cracking down and murdering them, the whole world will turn against India, and this will allow Pakistan to come in with full international support.

If Khalistan Sikhs rise up at the same time, it will not be possible for the Indian army to enter Kashmir.

China can help Pakistan clear out Indian troops. Sikhs can deal with India using Pakistani arms and support.

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## Skies

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> If Khalistan Sikhs rise up at the same time, it will not be possible for the Indian army to enter Kashmir.
> 
> China can help Pakistan clear out Indian troops. Sikhs can deal with India using Pakistani arms and support.



Just thinking if the Shik troops just sit idle or indifferent during the war

And why should the Shiks fight for India for an illegitimate cause?


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## KRAIT

Skies said:


> Just thinking if the Shik troops just sit idle or indifferent during the war
> 
> And why should the Shiks fight for India for an illegitimate cause?


HAHAHA....Sikhs and indifferent? They hate Pakistan more than anyone.


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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

KRAIT said:


> HAHAHA....Sikhs and indifferent? They hate Pakistan more than anyone.



Not true. Kartarpur is proof.



Skies said:


> Just thinking if the Shik troops just sit idle or indifferent during the war
> 
> And why should the Shiks fight for India for an illegitimate cause?



Everything would be pre-arranged. It is time to payback India for 1971 and the TTP terrorism from Afghanistan.

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## Skies

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Not true. Kartarpur is proof.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything would be pre-arranged. It is time to payback India for 1971 and the TTP terrorism from Afghanistan.



I am seeing the Bangladeshis (minus BALs) are happy as they say the Pulwama attack has satisfied them because of fact that India killed 57 BD armies in BD in the fake BDR mutiny incident in 2009.

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## Vapnope

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> China can help Pakistan clear out Indian troops.


History tells us that China never came to our help. We should understand that nobody is going to fight "our" wars. 


Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Sikhs can deal with India using Pakistani arms and support.


That happened in 1984 and both know the result. The insurgency might seem like a preferred option but it cannot change the status quo in Kashmir. There are few Khalistanis as compared to Pro Indian Sikhs in India. 
The solution lies not in war but in fair dialogue.

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## HalfMoon

Jugger said:


> Noob..!
> Any general with even basic IQ will not want a conflict with India ATM.
> New members like you say anything that comes to your mind.




Read this

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-2#post-11196320


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## SecularNationalist

OP is such a amateur seriously or may be just too emotional.
The only way we are going to take kashmir from india is through plebiscite which is a right,legal and constitutional way according to the current situation.And india will keep denying plebiscite because they know they will loose the entire kashmir.
Any attempt of war or hostility will defame pakistan in the international community as it did in the past.But apparently pakistan has learnt from its mistakes and now fighting it in a democratic manner and slowly making india weak on a international platform.Just put it that way and we will see the world demanding referendum from both india and pakistan or else its very difficult for india to continue this costly war in kashmir .Deep inside india is fed up and want a quick way out of hell but cannot or may be this will cause them to agree on plebiscite.
The conclusion is now its evident that india will never be able to enjoy the occupied piece of land like the rest of india in the foreseeable future without getting dead bodies and huge defence budgets.So basically they are controlling kashmir but at a great cost so basically they lost it already.Like few days ago indian professor himself claimed that for what we did in 1971 we lost peace forever and paying the price.

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## Hiptullha

Jackdaws said:


> am sure such scoot and shoot tactics make you feel very brave.



I never considered this a bravery or gallantry contest. If you want to be like Saif Ali Khan and carry out cool attacks in aviator shades with Bollywood music playing in the background, go for it. I just want to see as many of your kind dispatched elsewhere, then yeah, one freedom fighter getting rid of 40 H's with an IED seems pretty effective.


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## SorryNotSorry

Joe Shearer said:


> How many years have you been listening to Modi's speeches? What is your rank in the Pakistan armed forces? Did a top general help you with your brilliant Bakhtar Shikan and Anza strategy, or was it all by yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you know? One Pakistani is equal to ten Indians.
> 
> You must learn arithmetic before you comment on military matters.
> 
> 
> 
> Like what, specifically? Dardic speaking people? Or pheran wearing people? Shawl-makers and sellers?
> 
> What did you mean by that, if you don't mind sharing your thought processes?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice thread on a Sunday, and you have to step in and pour cold water on it. That's pretty mean of you.
> 
> 
> 
> I support free speech!
> 
> আরে চলুক না কিছুক্ষণ!
> 
> 
> 
> .....and galloping faster every minute.


My apologies sir.
I forgot to use the ‘equation of superior race’ where,
10 Hindu Veg Baniyas = 1 Mard e Momin

Also, considering how much better trained the Pakistanis are. It all makes sense now.

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## Joe Shearer

SecularNationalist said:


> OP is such a amateur seriously or may be just too emotional.
> The only way we are going to take kashmir from india is through plebiscite which is a right,legal and constitutional way according to the current situation.And india will keep denying plebiscite because they know they will loose the entire kashmir.
> Any attempt of war or hostility will defame pakistan in the international community as it did in the past.But apparently pakistan has learnt from its mistakes and now fighting it in a democratic manner and slowly making india weak on a international platform.Just put it that way and we will see the world demanding referendum from both india and pakistan or else its very difficult for india to continue this costly war in kashmir .Deep inside india is fed up and want a quick way out of hell but cannot or may be this will cause them to agree on plebiscite.
> The conclusion is now its evident that india will never be able to enjoy the occupied piece of land like the rest of india in the foreseeable future without getting dead bodies and huge defence budgets.So basically they are controlling kashmir but at a great cost so basically they lost it already.Like few days ago indian professor himself claimed that for what we did in 1971 we lost peace forever and paying the price.



I don't agree with you, but certainly think it is a better, more logical way forward than the cross-eyed lunacy on display in other segments of Pakistani opinion.

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## SecularNationalist

Joe Shearer said:


> I don't agree with you, but certainly think it is a better, more logical way forward than the cross-eyed lunacy on display in other segments of Pakistani opinion.


Yea war is definitely not an option for both india and pakistan because we are nuclear armed and both will cease to exist.
And i am a big advocate of free speech and you have all rights of not agreeing with me

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## Joe Shearer

Skies said:


> Just thinking if the Shik troops just sit idle or indifferent during the war
> 
> And why should the Shiks fight for India for an illegitimate cause?



Please don't keep thinking.

Unexpected activity might lead to adverse health consequences.



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Not true. Kartarpur is proof.



Proof of what?

Does the fact that some Pakistani Muslims come to Ajmer Sharif mean that they fall in love with India?

Sometimes I wonder about the Pakistani educational system.



> Everything would be pre-arranged. It is time to payback India for 1971 and the TTP terrorism from Afghanistan.



Before you submit your operational plans to GHQ, remember to run it through Spell-check.



Skies said:


> I am seeing the Bangladeshis (minus BALs) are happy as they say the Pulwama attack has satisfied them because of fact that India killed 57 BD armies in BD in the fake BDR mutiny incident in 2009.



So far you appear to be the Sole Spokesman of Bangladesh. 

Did BD ever have more than 1 Army?

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## Jackdaws

Hiptullha said:


> I never considered this a bravery or gallantry contest. If you want to be like Saif Ali Khan and carry out cool attacks in aviator shades with Bollywood music playing in the background, go for it. I just want to see as many of your kind dispatched elsewhere, then yeah, one freedom fighter getting rid of 40 H's with an IED seems pretty effective.


It's not going to get you any result you desire. Watching flop Bollywood movies with envy isn't going to help either.

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## Chhatrapati

I'm late. Did we win the war? I guess more tomatoes on road.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Vapnope said:


> The solution lies not in war but in fair dialogue.



It requires two sides willing to talk. India cannot afford peace, BJP will never win elections again.

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## Yankee-stani

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> It requires two sides willing to talk. India cannot afford peace, BJP will never win elections again.



You see I dont understand why the "Indians" claim "Kashmir" as an "Integral part of India" when they drag Kashmiris and anyone from Kashmir on the streets beat them in even "cosmopolitan" cities like Delhi and Mumbai face it no Kashmiri want to be part of India the only reason they want is to control the waters of the region and for potential resources

at least the Pakistanis say if the Kashmiris want to be a separate from Pakistan or India Pakistan would 100 percent agree on that

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> Organised formations in Northern Command:
> XIV Corps
> 3rd Infantry Division (Leh)
> 8th Infantry Division (Kargil)
> Independent formations
> 102nd Independent Infantry Brigade
> 
> 
> XV Corps
> 19th Infantry Division (Baramulla)
> 28th Infantry Division (Gurez)
> Independent formations
> () Artillery Brigade
> 
> 
> XVI Corps
> 10th Infantry Division (Akhnoor)
> 25th Infantry Division (Rajauri)
> 39th Infantry Division (Yol)


In response, PA has deployed:

*X Corps*
Divisions
1. FCNA (Gilgit)
2. 12th Infantry Division (Murree)
3. 19th Infantry Division (Mangla)
4. 23rd Infantry Division (Jhelum)
5. 34th Light Infantry Division (Chilas) (Units deployed in Kashmir, KPK, Baluchistan)(aka S S D)
Independent Brigades:
1. 111th Independent Infantry Brigade (Rawalpindi)
2. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Murree)
3. ?? Signals Brigade (Rawalpindi)

National guard units such as Janbaz and Mujahid are also attached to X-Corps.


> Separated out of Northern Command, assigned to Western Command
> 9 Corps (they like to write their name this way, I have no idea why)
> 26th Infantry Division (Jammu)
> 29th Infantry Division (Pathankot)
> Independent formations
> 2nd Independent Armoured Brigade
> 3rd Independent Armoured Brigade
> 16th Independent Armoured Brigade
> 
> 
> Other formations in Western Command


PA units South-East of LOC.

*XXX Corps*
Divisions
1. 8th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
2. 15th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
Independent Brigades:
1. 19th Independent Armored Brigade (Sialkot)
2. 54th Independent Infantry Brigade (Sialkot)
3. ?? Heavy Anti Tank Brigade (Sialkot)
4. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Sialkot)
 5. ?? Signals Brigade (Sialkot)



PA formation south of LOC and IB.

*I Corps*
Divisions
1. 6th Armored Division (Gujranwala)
2. 17th Infantry Division (Kharian)
3. 37th Infantry Division (Kharian)
Independent Brigades:
1. 8th Independent Armored Brigade (Kharian) (used to be under X- Corps)
2. ?? Signals Brigade (Kharian)

@Gryphon amend or verify

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## Great Janjua

Signalian said:


> In response, PA has deployed:
> 
> X Corps
> Divisions
> 1. FCNA (Gilgit)
> 2. 12th Infantry Division (Murree)
> 3. 19th Infantry Division (Mangla)
> 4. 23rd Infantry Division (Jhelum)
> 5. 34th Light Infantry Division (Chilas) (Units deployed in Kashmir, KPK, Baluchistan)(aka S S D)
> Brigades:
> 1. 111th Independent Infantry Brigade (Rawalpindi)
> 2. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Murree)
> 3. ?? Signals Brigade (Rawalpindi)
> 
> National guard units such as Janbaz and Mujahid are also attached to X-Corps.
> 
> PA units South-East of LOC.
> 
> XXX Corps
> Divisions
> 1. 8th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
> 2. 15th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
> Brigades:
> 1. 19th Independent Armored Brigade (Sialkot)
> 2. 54th Independent Infantry Brigade (Sialkot)
> 3. ?? Heavy Anti Tank Brigade (Sialkot)
> 4. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Sialkot)
> 5. ?? Signals Brigade (Sialkot)
> 
> PA formation south of LOC and IB.
> 
> I Corps
> Divisions
> 1. 6th Armored Division (Gujranwala)
> 2. 17th Infantry Division (Kharian)
> 3. 37th Infantry Division (Kharian)
> Brigades:
> 1. 8th Independent Armored Brigade (Kharian) (used to be under X- Corps)
> 2. ?? Signals Brigade (Kharian)
> 
> @Gryphon amend or verify


Burrahhhh kharian division will rattle these bastards

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> In response, PA has deployed:
> 
> *X Corps*
> Divisions
> 1. FCNA (Gilgit)
> 2. 12th Infantry Division (Murree)
> 3. 19th Infantry Division (Mangla)
> 4. 23rd Infantry Division (Jhelum)
> 5. 34th Light Infantry Division (Chilas) (Units deployed in Kashmir, KPK, Baluchistan)(aka S S D)
> Independent Brigades:
> 1. 111th Independent Infantry Brigade (Rawalpindi)
> 2. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Murree)
> 3. ?? Signals Brigade (Rawalpindi)
> 
> National guard units such as Janbaz and Mujahid are also attached to X-Corps.
> 
> PA units South-East of LOC.
> 
> *XXX Corps*
> Divisions
> 1. 8th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
> 2. 15th Infantry Division (Sialkot)
> Independent Brigades:
> 1. 19th Independent Armored Brigade (Sialkot)
> 2. 54th Independent Infantry Brigade (Sialkot)
> 3. ?? Heavy Anti Tank Brigade (Sialkot)
> 4. ?? Independent Artillery Brigade (Sialkot)
> 5. ?? Signals Brigade (Sialkot)
> 
> 
> 
> PA formation south of LOC and IB.
> 
> *I Corps*
> Divisions
> 1. 6th Armored Division (Gujranwala)
> 2. 17th Infantry Division (Kharian)
> 3. 37th Infantry Division (Kharian)
> Independent Brigades:
> 1. 8th Independent Armored Brigade (Kharian) (used to be under X- Corps)
> 2. ?? Signals Brigade (Kharian)
> 
> @Gryphon amend or verify



Of course, it is impossible to draw a neat line and have both forces arrayed exactly opposite each other, but it looks like your orbat (above) runs past our Northern Command into Western Command. Note that I've only included 9 Corps out of Western Command.

Nevertheless, it looks like the PA is heavily concentrated in Sialkot and Kharian, whereas their opposite numbers are echeloned into the Himachal Pradesh hills. A map, a map....

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> Of course, it is impossible to draw a neat line and have both forces arrayed exactly opposite each other, but it looks like your orbat (above) runs past our Northern Command into Western Command. Note that I've only included 9 Corps out of Western Command.
> 
> Nevertheless, it looks like the PA is heavily concentrated in Sialkot and Kharian, whereas their opposite numbers are echeloned into the Himachal Pradesh hills. A map, a map....


yeah gotta put a map up...you can do the honors 

Going more south east, PA IV Corps is facing IA II Corps and XI Corps. So yes, IA IX Corps could be poised towards providing depth to J&K territory.

To provide strength and back up to PA X-Corps, especially to FCNA in Gilgit and 12 Inf Div on LOC, PA uses 7 Inf Div and 9 Inf Div out of KPK XI Corps.

GHQ might even use the Indep Armd Bde Grp (Nowshera, KPK) of XI Corps as reserve in case 6th Armd Div is badly mauled by IA Armd formations.

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## SorryNotSorry

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> It is the only way to secure the lives, property, and dignity of Kashmiris.
> 
> Kashmiris will rise up en masse, followed by Indian brutality cracking down and murdering them, the whole world will turn against India, and this will allow Pakistan to come in with full international support.
> 
> If Khalistan Sikhs rise up at the same time, it will not be possible for the Indian army to enter Kashmir.
> 
> China can help Pakistan clear out Indian troops. Sikhs can deal with India using Pakistani arms and support.



Only a handful of men in India are willing to fight for Khalistan today. The loudest voices are out in the West.

Not gonna happen.

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> yeah gotta put a map up...you can do the honors
> 
> Going more south east, PA IV Corps is facing IA II Corps and XI Corps. So yes, IA IX Corps could be poised towards providing depth to J&K territory.
> 
> To provide strength and back up to PA X-Corps, especially to FCNA in Gilgit and 12 Inf Div on LOC, PA uses 7 Inf Div and 9 Inf Div out of KPK XI Corps.
> 
> GHQ might even use the Indep Armd Bde Grp (Nowshera, KPK) of XI Corps as reserve in case 6th Armd Div is badly mauled by IA Armd formations.



I didn't have this readily at hand, but thanks to you, the position becomes clearer. This is where the missing boots are - just a hop, step and a jump away in Nowshera.

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> I didn't have this readily at hand, but thanks to you, the position becomes clearer. This is where the missing boots are - just a hop, step and a jump away in Nowshera.


7th Infantry Division from Peshawar XI Corps has operated on LOC, near Chamb in 1965, where as in 1971 it was set to operate with PA 1st Armd Div, never happened. In 1999, it was sent to reinforce 12 Infantry Divisional areas along LOC, almost opposite to kargil.

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> yeah gotta put a map up...you can do the honors
> 
> Going more south east, PA IV Corps is facing IA II Corps and XI Corps. So yes, IA IX Corps could be poised towards providing depth to J&K territory.
> 
> To provide strength and back up to PA X-Corps, especially to FCNA in Gilgit and 12 Inf Div on LOC, PA uses 7 Inf Div and 9 Inf Div out of KPK XI Corps.
> 
> GHQ might even use the Indep Armd Bde Grp (Nowshera, KPK) of XI Corps as reserve in case 6th Armd Div is badly mauled by IA Armd formations.



And it also looks like XI Corps is a milch cow for eastward facing formations, particularly for X Corps, and just down below, for the Gujranwala based 6 Armoured. Hmm, interesting; so nobody really expects any trouble in the west. That border just helps by providing cantonment areas.

It may not be unfair to point out that, although almost pure infantry, XIV Corps could provide back-up unless the PLA seem to be doing warming up exercises.



Signalian said:


> 7th Infantry Division from Peshawar XI Corps has operated on LOC, near Chamb in 1965, where as in 1971 it was set to operate with PA 1st Armd Div, never happened. In 1999, it was sent to reinforce 12 Infantry Divisional areas along LOC, almost opposite to kargil.



The whole situation is so much clearer after your helpful insights. Thank you very much.

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## Nilgiri

Skies said:


> I am seeing the Bangladeshis (minus BALs) are happy as they say the Pulwama attack has satisfied them because of fact that India killed 57 BD armies in BD in the fake BDR mutiny incident in 2009.



Thats fine because non-BAL bangladeshis are obviously quite weak and few.



Joe Shearer said:


> Did BD ever have more than 1 Army?



Each BD soldier is his own army! Get with the program here!



Signalian said:


> yeah gotta put a map up...you can do the honors



I can do it (when I get a little time)....for small fee of + rating from Joe. I will let @Gryphon add/subtract anything first.

Absolutely enjoyed the convo you two just had. Brought back some nostalgia for me when I mapped out various formations in WW2 theatres.

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> And it also looks like XI Corps is a milch cow for eastward facing formations, particularly for X Corps, and just down below, for the Gujranwala based 6 Armoured. Hmm, interesting; so nobody really expects any trouble in the west. That border just helps by providing cantonment areas.
> 
> It may not be unfair to point out that, although almost pure infantry, XIV Corps could provide back-up unless the PLA seem to be doing warming up exercises.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole situation is so much clearer after your helpful insights. Thank you very much.



Go towards south in Pakistan and IX Corps, Quetta, has the same purpose. 33 Inf Div and 41st Inf Div are supposed to reinforce V Corps in Sindh. 
In march 1965, a PA Inf Div was sent from Quetta to Rann of Kutch and took part in offensive Ops against Indian Army. I am not sure which Div was it, maybe 8th Infantry Div. Talking of Rann of Kucth, the Tanks were sent from Lahore to reinforce this Inf Div in Rann.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> Thats fine because non-BAL bangladeshis are obviously quite weak and few.
> 
> 
> 
> Each BD soldier is his own army! Get with the program here!
> 
> 
> 
> I can do it (when I get a little time)....for small fee of + rating from Joe. I will let @Gryphon add/subtract anything first.
> 
> Absolutely enjoyed the convo you two just had. Brought back some nostalgia for me when I mapped out various formations in WW2 theatres.



Deal. 

Could you mark Infantry Divisions and Armoured separately?

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> Deal.
> 
> Could you mark Infantry Divisions and Armoured separately?



Haha that goes without saying my friend.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Haha that goes without saying my friend.


There has been a movement of IA Armoured Forces near Akhnur in previous years. throw some light on that also. I didnt follow that up. 2 Armd Regts and 2 Mech Inf Bn's were said to have moved there.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> There has been a movement of IA Armoured Forces near Akhnur in previous years. throw some light on that also. I didnt follow that up. 2 Armd Regts and 2 Mech Inf Bn's were said to have moved there.



I will draw one version out for starters on the best of info we have at that point (in thread)...and we can iterate/correct etc from there (hopefully vibrio, jbgt and gryphon etc...will add their inputs as well). 

Will have to first compile all you, Joe and any others contribute here over next few days etc. I plan to do this proper  ...it wont be a quickie.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> I will draw one version out for starters on the best of info we have at that point (in thread)...and we can iterate/correct etc from there (hopefully vibrio, jbgt and gryphon etc...will add their inputs as well).
> 
> Will have to first compile all you, Joe and any others contribute here over next few days etc. I plan to do this proper  ...it wont be a quickie.


I posted a few maps in 2017 in this thread, pretty general and simple ones, post # 107, page 8

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...counter-cold-start.485506/page-8#post-9329263

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> I posted a few maps in 2017 in this thread, pretty general and simple ones, post # 107, page 8
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...counter-cold-start.485506/page-8#post-9329263



Thanks bud, yeah that will be useful as reference point.

I will probably use standard NATO field symbols. A few arrows I will add just like you too.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> I will draw one version out for starters on the best of info we have at that point (in thread)...and we can iterate/correct etc from there (hopefully vibrio, jbgt and gryphon etc...will add their inputs as well).
> 
> Will have to first compile all you, Joe and any others contribute here over next few days etc. I plan to do this proper  ...it wont be a quickie.




PLEASE improve on @Signalian 's terrible choice of font and point, and spare these 68 year old eyes.

And colour: sheesh, try working out what's in red!

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## Indian Libertarian

Ok, so you want another Kargil? 


HalfMoon said:


> 1) Pakistan is a nuclear power and has attained parity and surpassed India
> 
> 2) Pakistan has support of all major powers of the world - US, China, Russia, UK etc.
> 
> 3) Pakistan has support of the Islamic world
> 
> 4) Pakistan Airforce has exponentially increased its strength while Indian Airforce has greatly depleted its strength
> 
> 5) Pakistan military is well fed, equipped & trained while Indian military is ill equipped and is have tough time even finding good food to eat


i don’t think Pakistan has the support of lost oil money.

Seems like some Pakistanis on pdf are engaged in a form of wishful thinking which I find hyperbolic.


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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> PLEASE improve on @Signalian 's terrible choice of font and point, and spare these 68 year old eyes.
> 
> And colour: sheesh, try working out what's in red!


Thank you....I wasn't giving a presentation to a GOC, i was making a point regarding armored warfare and yes i'm not proud of fonts in those maps but they make a point and save me from writing long sentences.

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## Hiptullha

Jackdaws said:


> It's not going to get you any result you desire.



It's not gotten any result at all so far, has it? If we can blow up 40 of your kind with no reaction, why not?


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## Krptonite

Hiptullha said:


> It's not gotten any result at all so far, has it? If we can blow up 40 of your kind with no reaction, why not?


Violence begets violence, its only going to be a game of some sort of macabre upmanship while both sides suffer. Why celebrate it?.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The only solution is a Million People March from Rawalpindi to Srinagar and Kashmiri people should be asked to do a similar Million People march from Srinagar to Rawalpindim bring out the green flag and make a declaration for Joining with Pakistan

And any barrier which will come between the brothers should be destroyed like berlin war


We need to expose India for what they are conjurers of lies and deceit they have no business over that land or the people who reside there

If India uses force on the Marching people , Pakistan will reply with Force from our side

Pakistan should invite press channel from all the world to cover this unique unification of Kashmiri with Pakistan

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

SorryNotSorry said:


> Only a handful of men in India are willing to fight for Khalistan today. The loudest voices are out in the West.
> 
> Not gonna happen.



I’m glad you think this way. Very good

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## Mugwop

Let's suppose we take kashmir from india then what? 
india will still be our neighbor and their belligerence won't go away.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nothing after that we focus on our own nations and economy


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## Gryphon

*11 Corps (HQ Peshawar):*

7 Infantry Division - Peshawar
9 Infantry Division - Kohat
No IABG / IMBG.

*10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*

FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
Reserve 10 Corps:

34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
19 Infantry Division - Mangla
111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
No IABG / IMBG.

*30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
Reserve 30 Corps:

19 IABG - Gujranwala
30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
*1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
17 Infantry Division - Kharian
37 Infantry Division - Kharian
8 IABG - Kharian
*4 Corps (HQ Lahore; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

10 Infantry Division - Lahore
11 Infantry Division - Lahore
212 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Chunian
Reserve 4 Corps:

3 IABG - Chunian
*12 Corps (HQ Quetta; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

33 Infantry Division - Quetta
41 Infantry Division - Quetta
No IABG / IMBG.

*31 Corps (HQ Bahawalpur; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

14 Infantry Division - Okara
35 Infantry Division - Bahawalpur
Reserve 31 Corps:

HQ 26 Mechanized Division - Bahawalpur (commands 10 IABG - Bahawalpur, 14 IABG - Bahawalpur and 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur)
*2 Strike Corps (HQ Multan; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

1 Armoured Division - Multan
40 Infantry Division - Okara
42 IABG - Multan
*5 Corps (HQ Karachi; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

16 Infantry Division - Pano Aqil
18 Infantry Division - Hyderabad
21 Artillery Division - Pano Aqil
Reserve 5 Corps:

HQ 25 Mechanized Division - Malir (commands 12 IABG - Malir, 330 IABG - Malir and 31 IMBG - Malir)
2 IABG - Karachi

*NOTES:*

Both Infantry Divisions of 11 Corps heavily involved in COIN, op HQ's established elsewhere.
HAT battalions to Corps HQ's & HAT companies / LAT battalions to Divisions are assigned as per operational requirements.
IABG's at Nowshera / Khuzdar reported on Wiki only, no evidence these exist.
Corps with no Arty Div have Arty Bde (I am unable to identify all these Bdes & their loc).
Most Corps have own Air Defence Bde.

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## Jackdaws

Hiptullha said:


> It's not gotten any result at all so far, has it? If we can blow up 40 of your kind with no reaction, why not?


Good to know you admit you lot did it. You are only entenching the Indian position. You too will lose soldiers and that's the difference - we won't be celebrating loss of life. To you cowardly attacks are a badge of honor and then you deny you did it.

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## Signalian

Mugwop said:


> Let's suppose we take kashmir from india then what?
> india will still be our neighbor and their belligerence won't go away.


The border with India is then reduced to half of current size. Dismantle 4-5 Infantry Divisions of Pakistan straightaway, sell the equipment and make new universities and hospitals. Insurgency ends on both sides. Siachen issue gets resolved forever. Deaths of muslims stop occurring on both sides of LOC.

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## Joe Shearer

Gryphon said:


> *10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*
> 
> FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
> 12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
> 23 Infantry Division - Jhelum (includes few HAT companies)
> Reserve 10 Corps:
> 
> 34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
> 19 Infantry Division - Mangla
> 111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
> No IABG / IMBG.
> 
> *30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
> Reserve 30 Corps:
> 
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala
> 30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
> HAT battalion (under Corps HQ)
> *1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
> 2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
> 17 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 37 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 8 IABG - Kharian
> HAT battalion (under Corps HQ)
> 
> *NOTES:*
> 
> Corps with no Arty Div have Arty Bde (I am unable to identify all these Bdes & their loc).
> Few Corps are supported by Air Defence Divisions, most have own AD Bde.
> 8 IABG, Kharian was never under HQ 10 Corps. This is incorrect Wiki info.
> Remaining 6x Corps, I will post later.
> 
> @Signalian @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer



Many thanks. Looking forward to your awesome posts, without denigrating @Signalian for his primary efforts. This is turning out so fruitful.



Signalian said:


> The border with India is then reduced to half of current size. Dismantle 4-5 Infantry Divisions of Pakistan straightaway, sell the equipment and make new universities and hospitals. Insurgency ends on both sides. Siachen issue gets resolved forever. Deaths of muslims stop occurring on both sides of LOC.



I must be honest.

Leaving aside the morality of the situation that you outline, with the hint implicit that @Mugwop made that this would be voluntary, or semi-involuntary on the part of India, you should be made aware that there is a segment of thought among responsible people that the situation you have suggested will never solve anything.

That there is an interested party in your society that is dependent on the creation of strife and warfare between our two countries for its institutional existence. That you are sounding its death-knell when you talk of dismantling 4 to 5 Infantry Divisions. That you frighten its leadership when you talk about building new universities and hospitals (incidentally, that is precisely what India did commencing 70 years ago, with the difference between her military budget and yours). That you raise to them the grim spectre of progressive reduction to just another institution among a number of other institutions. That from a position of leadership and absolute authority you propose that they should behave like ordinary human beings. 

This segment of opinion believes that you will promptly find another cause for war, or for war-like behaviour. Read that as such a cause will be found for you. That besides the deep-rooted desire for dominance over the entire sub-continent that lay behind most of the political impulse that led to the creation of Pakistan in the first place, besides the evocation of a thousand years of rule that ill-educated schoolkids reach back to in their imagining of the situation between the two countries, which they reduce to the situation between two religious communities, that behind the veneer of diplomatic behaviour that your foreign service displays lies the overheated boast of the ghazwa-e-Hind that we hear so often, in perfect rhythm with our own unbalanced rabble mouthing their own slogans of Akhand Bharat, that the aim is not peace, the aim is a reversion to domination, a domination unluckily interrupted by the British interregnum. 

Leaving aside other aspects, this part is not one that is likely to disappear from the thinking of Indians. Even peace-loving and hopeful Indians.

Sorry, but there is a credibility deficit.



Signalian said:


> I posted a few maps in 2017 in this thread, pretty general and simple ones, post # 107, page 8
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...counter-cold-start.485506/page-8#post-9329263



Incidentally, I read through your posts there with great interest. Once again, you have effectively made the point that you made in that brilliant post where you pointed out the pyramid of conversational topics, from glittering pieces of equipment to formations and their value to tactical discussions and battlefield analyses to strategic issues. Only a very, very few will ever survive that climb up the slippery ladder - slippery pyramid??? - and ever bother to discuss higher capabilities or options.

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## baajey

superb thread....

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## Viny

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 10 Million Kashmiri will be given Anza and Baktar Shiken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anza + Kashimir = Freedom




How was your maths in school?
Did you checked your forex reserves?



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistani flag is already waving in Kashmiri people's hand




If an indian mistakes Islamic flag to be pakistani flag i can understand...but if a pakistani does it..it must be Azadpakistan2009



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> All of the valley is ground level route
> 
> An average Pakistani population can just walk there or take a taxi and get there in *30 minutes
> *
> In 30 minutes 10 million Pakistani citizens can flood the area forget about Pakistani Army
> 
> +10,000,000 Million Kashmiri Pakistani Citizens (Indian forced imprisonment)
> +10,000,000 Million Pakistani Citizens
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 20,000,000 Million Freedom Force
> 
> Pakistani Army is extra on the side



You are talking about numbers and movements, seriously its for sure not the afgan weed, you got something much stronger there...


Guys its been one of the most hilarious thread in recent days ....

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## alphibeti

niao78 said:


> As most Pakistani says here they defeated super power in afghanistan. US spent trillion dollar still couldn’t win. Yes but they won’t kill irony and will get Kashmir by mere 11 billion dollar budget. Yes good luck with you guys are showing supper intelligence.
> It’s for valley only where you will get militants support forget about getting support else where in Kashmir. And yes you guys have money to spend on war right ? Please be our guest and get Kashmir.
> Let me tell you few simple logic.
> 1. Our budget allocations is low but it’s still much more than your country, and what do you think we will be in war in still keep on spending same?
> 2. We have enough forex reserve surplus to spend on how you guys gonna afford war.
> 3. Indian army is relatively strong and indian navy is far superior. We may not have as surplus aircraft as we had but what our navy will be doing watching show? good luck with fighting indian navy.
> 4. What kind support you’re talking about? USA please they didn’t pay your so called expenses on war against terrorism. Or didn’t even give you cheap f16. Good luck with getting spares for it.
> Russia? Just getting military exercise will make them support you ? Lol yeah and they will support you against their biggest military hardware buyer.
> 5.So called islamic world support? Each islamic country has own agend all they can do is give you some funds that’s it.
> Don’t forget weaker IAF still stronger than PAF in terms of numbers and equipment.
> 6. Nuclear will be suicide for Pakistan let me tell you one thing both country will eventually blow each other but will land size of India there will be still some india left, can’t say same for Pakistan.
> I still have one question how you guys gonna afford a war ? money you guys received is to pay existing loan it’s not gonna stay in bank to use.
> Only thing Pakistan really capable of is proxy war. Yes ISI is capable of doing some terror attack but good luck with winning war.
> Also i am also aware of that fighting Pakistan will cost India a lot and it won’t consider as victory but don’t thing like you guys gonna crush india have some brain.


Only a coward like you gets lost in a 'simple' logic (which is non-sense BTW). If you have balls, do what the heck you leaders, media, and sena have been saying - teach a lesson to Pakistan. I have seen them screaming non-stop like a mad dog. You can have all your budget up your legs if you cannot teach a lesson to a country nine times smaller than you.



Viny said:


> How was your maths in school?
> Did you checked your forex reserves?


How was your English in Temple School, BTW?


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## Gryphon

@Signalian @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer 

I have posted the ORBAT of PA on pg 9, #132.
Errors, if any, may be mentioned.

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## Joe Shearer

Gryphon said:


> @Signalian @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer
> 
> I have posted the ORBAT of PA on pg 9, #132.
> Errors, if any, may be mentioned.



Thank you very much.



baajey said:


> superb thread....



I agree, but let us give credit where it is due. It is awesome to encounter the level of information that @Gryphon and @Signalian have hit us with. It is to be hoped that when @Nilgiri graphs it, we can see at a glance the thinking and the strategic vision behind each side's planning.

For instance, we see one Corps completely devoted to counter-insurgency; they presumably also have broad oversight of their western borders. Other formations form a ring around their critical living areas: Islamabad, Rawalpindi, and Lahore and Sialkot are enclosed in a ring of steel, heavily infantry, with some units even more greatly than the normal equipped for anti-tank warfare and attached to various headquarters. Obviously these are the fall-back units, the second line of defence. All their mountain infantry is in these parts, to the north of the urban complexes that populate the Punjab. Apparently they are not particularly exercised about the possibility of attack, probably because of the difficult topography there.

Looking at their 4th Corps shows a similar picture. I haven't yet read Gryphon's full post, only his' original truncated one. Reading his (and, earlier, that by @Signalian) accounts, and reading the Orbat, quite clearly speaks to the interested reader. We hear it say lots of things. Let's wait till the Indian version comes in as well.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> IABG's at Nowshera / Khuzdar reported on Wiki only, no evidence these exist.


You have put Independent Brigades under Mechanized Divisions. Divisional troops are not independent at Brigade level.

Wiki information cannot be trusted.

There was armor movement from Nowshera to Peshawar during border wall conflict with Afghanistan a year or two back, there was a video about it. That armor didn't belong to Armor School where as the Armor Regiments of 7 ID and 9 ID are deployed ahead with infantry. 

Khuzdar housed an Armored Brigade under 12 Corps back in 2000's. Khuzdar cantonment was also used as a transit camp for forces travelling between karachi- Quetta. If that Brigade has been moved or joined 25th or 26th Mech Divs, i can't say for sure.

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## Nilgiri

Gryphon said:


> *11 Corps (HQ Peshawar):*
> 
> 7 Infantry Division - Peshawar
> 9 Infantry Division - Kohat
> No IABG / IMBG.
> 
> *10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*
> 
> FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
> 12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
> 23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
> Reserve 10 Corps:
> 
> 34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
> 19 Infantry Division - Mangla
> 111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
> No IABG / IMBG.
> 
> *30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
> Reserve 30 Corps:
> 
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala
> 30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
> *1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
> 2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
> 17 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 37 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 8 IABG - Kharian
> *4 Corps (HQ Lahore; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 10 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 11 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 212 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Chunian
> Reserve 4 Corps:
> 
> 3 IABG - Chunian
> *12 Corps (HQ Quetta; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 33 Infantry Division - Quetta
> 41 Infantry Division - Quetta
> No IABG / IMBG.
> 
> *31 Corps (HQ Bahawalpur; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 14 Infantry Division - Okara
> 35 Infantry Division - Bahawalpur
> Reserve 31 Corps:
> 
> HQ 26 Mechanized Division - Bahawalpur (commands 10 IABG - Bahawalpur, 14 IABG - Bahawalpur and 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur)
> *2 Strike Corps (HQ Multan; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 1 Armoured Division - Multan
> 40 Infantry Division - Okara
> 42 IABG - Multan
> *5 Corps (HQ Karachi; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 16 Infantry Division - Pano Aqil
> 18 Infantry Division - Hyderabad
> 21 Artillery Division - Pano Aqil
> Reserve 5 Corps:
> 
> HQ 25 Mechanized Division - Malir (commands 12 IABG - Malir, 330 IABG - Malir and 31 IMBG - Malir)
> 2 IABG - Karachi
> 
> *NOTES:*
> 
> Both Infantry Divisions of 11 Corps heavily involved in COIN, op HQ's established elsewhere.
> HAT battalions to Corps HQ's & HAT companies / LAT battalions to Divisions are assigned as per operational requirements.
> IABG's at Nowshera / Khuzdar reported on Wiki only, no evidence these exist.
> Corps with no Arty Div have Arty Bde (I am unable to identify all these Bdes & their loc).
> Most Corps have own Air Defence Bde.



Thanks!

I'm having a look at this thread too, with some useful info:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-armor-division-of-pakistan-army.552525/

@Signalian

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm having a look at this thread too, with some useful info:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-armor-division-of-pakistan-army.552525/
> 
> @Signalian


Hahaha yeah good old thread, PA mixes up its formations in war time. i wrote peace time stats.

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## Signalian

@Armchair @FuturePAF any input in this thread will be appreciated.


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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> You have put Independent Brigades under Mechanized Divisions. Divisional troops are not independent at Brigade level.



Mechanized Divisions were raised as the higher HQ to manage 31 and 5 Corps Independent Bdes which were in existence as of early 2000's. The brigades retain their independent character, but are integrated be operate as a division.



> Wiki information cannot be trusted.
> 
> There was armor movement from Nowshera to Peshawar during border wall conflict with Afghanistan a year or two back, there was a video about it. That armor didn't belong to Armor School where as the Armor Regiments of 7 ID and 9 ID are deployed ahead with infantry.
> 
> Khuzdar housed an Armored Brigade under 12 Corps back in 2000's. Khuzdar cantonment was also used as a transit camp for forces travelling between karachi- Quetta. If that Brigade has been moved or joined 25th or 26th Mech Divs, i can't say for sure.



KPK / FATA is op area, units (incl. Armd Bdes) from eastern formations have been involved, you have an Arty Div presently moved to Swat (and beyond), then you also have 17 Inf Div elements involved as well (in the same area).

Existed/may have existed is not being discussed here. Bring us evidence - at least name the Bdes or post some tank pics with 11/12 Corps insignia.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Mechanized Divisions were raised as the higher HQ to manage 31 and 5 Corps Independent Bdes which were in existence as of early 2000's. The brigades retain their independent character, but are integrated be operate as a division.
> 
> 
> 
> KPK / FATA is op area, units (incl. Armd Bdes) from eastern formations have been involved, you have an Arty Div presently moved to Swat (and beyond), then you also have 17 ID Inf Div elements involved as well (in the same area).
> 
> Existed/may have existed is not being discussed here. Bring us evidence - at least name the Bdes or post some tank pics with 11/12 Corps insignia.


I check about Armd Bdes, you are right, none in 11/12 Corps.

Will check about Mech Div's and Indp Bdes.

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Will check about Mech Div's and Indp Bdes.



Wish PA had a Mech Div + 3x Indp Armd Bde Gp's in each of these Corps. The current inventory of MBT's does not support such a structure.

I saw a PA Infantry Div with a Mechanized Bde: 1 Armd Regt + 2 MIB's. Clearly, PA wants IA RAPID like formations, but with MBT & IFV induction/selection progressing at snail's pace, this is unlikely to materialize in the short-to-medium term.


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Wish PA had a Mech Div + 3x Indp Armd Bde Gp's in each of these Corps. The current inventory of MBT's does not support such a structure.
> 
> I saw a PA Infantry Div with a Mechanized Bde: 1 Armd Regt + 2 MIB's. Clearly, PA wants IA RAPID like formations, but with MBT & IFV induction/selection progressing at snail's pace, this is unlikely to materialize in the short-to-medium term.


Which Div


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Forget division, get to people , and unleash the anger of local Kashmiri people on enemy soldiers , they will win their own freedom

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Which Div



35 ID.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri 

This thread was supposed to yield some ORBAT mapping. Dead?

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## Joe Shearer

Gryphon said:


> 35 ID.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri
> 
> This thread was supposed to yield some ORBAT mapping. Dead?



Good Heavens, no! I believe @Nilgiri is at it, but he had, if you recall, asked for time. Let us leave him to it.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Taking Kashmir is possible only need b..ls of steel and assuming the following scenarios.
a) Embracing short term(2-6months) economic meltdown and sanctions.
b)2 million volunteers recruited from tribals,religious seminaries,ex servicemen and political parties.
c)Indigenous Kashmiri volunteers around 10k-100k.
d)Ex mujahideen and taliban recruits 10k-50k.
e)Assuming the hostilities only confine to the valley and Jammu region.
f)Pak army with air and mechanised support primarily focus in the Jammu region.
g)The Razakars of different origins focus in the valley and populated areas with air support and supplies.
h)All the communication links,airfields and supply routes as primary tasks for the Razakar corps.
i)Small towns and villages liberation stage two by combined forces.
j)Achieving air superiority in Kashmir primary task for PAF.
k)Involving friendly states in legitimising our gains.
l)Politically reaching out to pro Indian elements as well.
m)After ceasefire and occupation asking UN for a referendum to legitimise the merger with Pakistan.
n)If Indians seek more trouble help the Khalistan and other movements etc etc.
I know the Generals can achieve the above in a matter of months with meticulous plannings . The environment is very conducive and differs a lot from 1965(Operation Gibraltar). Just trust Allah and give it a go. Pakistan Zindabad


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## Signalian

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Taking Kashmir is possible only need b..ls of steel and assuming the following scenarios.
> a) Embracing short term(2-6months) economic meltdown and sanctions.
> b)2 million volunteers recruited from tribals,religious seminaries,ex servicemen and political parties.
> c)Indigenous Kashmiri volunteers around 10k-100k.
> d)Ex mujahideen and taliban recruits 10k-50k.
> e)Assuming the hostilities only confine to the valley and Jammu region.
> f)Pak army with air and mechanised support primarily focus in the Jammu region.
> g)The Razakars of different origins focus in the valley and populated areas with air support and supplies.
> h)All the communication links,airfields and supply routes as primary tasks for the Razakar corps.
> i)Small towns and villages liberation stage two by combined forces.
> j)Achieving air superiority in Kashmir primary task for PAF.
> k)Involving friendly states in legitimising our gains.
> l)Politically reaching out to pro Indian elements as well.
> m)After ceasefire and occupation asking UN for a referendum to legitimise the merger with Pakistan.
> n)If Indians seek more trouble help the Khalistan and other movements etc etc.
> I know the Generals can achieve the above in a matter of months with meticulous plannings . The environment is very conducive and differs a lot from 1965(Operation Gibraltar). Just trust Allah and give it a go. Pakistan Zindabad



Its not that easy. India will get wind of mobilisation considering such sheer numbers you mentioned. As soon as India sees that Kashmir is falling into Pakistan's hands, it will send warnings of usage of nuclear weapons. Mountain warfare is complicated, taking peaks becomes priority along with fast movement of troops to reinforce peaks and take control of highways as well as areas over looking them.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Signalian said:


> Its not that easy. India will get wind of mobilisation considering such sheer numbers you mentioned. As soon as India sees that Kashmir is falling into Pakistan's hands, it will send warnings of usage of nuclear weapons. Mountain warfare is complicated, taking peaks becomes priority along with fast movement of troops to reinforce peaks and take control of highways as well as areas over looking them.


Indians were given a bloody nose during Zia era with scores of mujahideens organisations fighting in the region.We dont need to take each and every hill just cut of their supplies and take the population centres.I know it does not sound easy but do remember ISI did manage to take 95% Afghanistan(10 times bigger). Razakars can be inducted gradually to make up the numbers. Kashmir is surrounded by Pakistan makes the task better than Afghanistan. There can be other better scenarios but i think now is the time and enough is enough we need to conclude this Kashmir conundrum once for all.


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## Signalian

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Indians were given a bloody nose during Zia era with scores of mujahideens organisations fighting in the region.We dont need to take each and every hill just cut of their supplies and take the population centres.I know it does not sound easy but do remember ISI did manage to take 95% Afghanistan(10 times bigger). Razakars can be inducted gradually to make up the numbers. Kashmir is surrounded by Pakistan makes the task better than Afghanistan. There can be other better scenarios but i think now is the time and enough is enough we need to conclude this Kashmir conundrum once for all.


That is why IA brought in BSF and CPRF. Pakistan did the same thing by increasing FC to counter insurgency.

Peaks and Hills needs to be taken for:

1. Defense against an IA counter attack and ability to cut off PA forces fighting in the region.
2. Thwart IA SF warfare against PA
3. Protect supply lines entering into J&K if any progress is made.
4. Deny enemy space on all sides of that peak
5. To control movement on the roads

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## aziqbal

India now has two Corps in reserve for Kashmir 

on top of the 700,000 inside Kashmir 

only way is to get China to moves a PLA army group to Indian border 

Splitting the Indian defences in two 

Maybe we can force something then 

But its not going to be easy


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Forget about Corps and Corporals

People of Kashmir = 10 Million people !!!!

Just give them the weapons they need and they will retake their own freedom back

Kashmiri are fighting for their families and children and future of their children 
Indians in Kashmir are there to beat them up and torture


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## Signalian

aziqbal said:


> India now has two Corps in reserve for Kashmir
> 
> on top of the 700,000 inside Kashmir
> 
> only way is to get China to moves a PLA army group to Indian border
> 
> Splitting the Indian defences in two
> 
> Maybe we can force something then
> 
> But its not going to be easy


Indians will start bringing in reinforcements from the air in Jammu and Srinagar as well as push from Pathankot ground forces towards Jammu, Anantnag and Srinagar and air lift forces towards Leh.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Forget about Corps and Corporals
> 
> People of Kashmir = 10 Million people !!!!
> 
> Just give them the weapons they need and they will retake their own freedom back
> 
> Kashmiri are fighting for their families and children and future of their children
> Indians in Kashmir are there to beat them up and torture


Wasn't this tried already in 1947-48, 1965, 1971, 1990-1999 and it didn't work out?

FATA was somewhat the same. Militants equipped with guns, having sympathy from local population. When PA arrived, then some ran away, some gave up weapons, many got killed. Kashmiri civilians have betrayed Pakistan in the past (1965). They will assist Indian Forces like before.


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## Philip the Arab

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> India has no moral ground to hold 8-10 million people hostage
> They never wanted to be part of this so called happy india 70 years ago and nothing has changed it is 2019
> 
> It is time they moved on or face people's will for freedom


How about hitting Kashmir from Islamabad area, waiting for the Indian army to come which they most likely will and trying to encircle them from near where the top arrow is near Srinagar and hitting them from Sialkot at the same time. A dedicated push could trap soldiers if air superiority is won.

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## ghazi52




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## Signalian

Philip the Arab said:


> How about hitting Kashmir from Islamabad area, waiting for the Indian army to come which they most likely will and trying to encircle them from near where the top arrow is near Srinagar and hitting them from Sialkot at the same time. A dedicated push could trap soldiers if air superiority is won.


Forces in Shakargarh and Narowal are poised towards Pathankot.


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Gangetic

The only way to annex Kashmir is by a referendum (which India will never allow) or if the Kashmiris support us (probably not fully yet, but in the future when RSS types take over), if we have their support then we must mass-arm them with AKs, RPGs, etc and encircle the Indian army by attacking from all sides.


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## CHI RULES

ghazi52 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



The whole world is having blind eye towards India and Israel including our so called brotherly Muslim countries. May be it's time to end OIC and form a new alliance with Turkey , China and even close cooperation with North Korea. In addition should go for mediation between KSA and Iran, to make alliance with both of them.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Kashmiri people are imprision by a mere 50 KM zone for last 70 years


50KM = 30 minutes of car drive







8-10 Million Muslims are imprisoned in that 50km zone
99% of them will pick up arms


a) Sticks
b) Brooms
c) Axe
d) Kneif
e) Pistol gun
f) AK-47
g) Anza


3 Million pakistanis can reach Srinagar by Motor cycles route in 20 minutes

Gujrat / Sialkot to Jammu is 25 miutes ride for those who drive fast



Range 100+ KM

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

When there is a will there is a way.If the generals feel they will be redundant after annexing Kashmir than let the masses take this noble cause. A few days old news claimed propping up of multiple camps for war volunteers all over the country with significant news of signings coming from 3000 tribals from Landikotal,30,000 from JI camps in Karachi and hundreds in Dir for Al Badar organisation.
In Karachi a mother brought her 12 year old son to volunteer which was quite moving.A general request from the Govt for war razakars can easily surpass the current strength of our Armed forces within days.

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## Nilgiri

Gryphon said:


> 35 ID.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri
> 
> This thread was supposed to yield some ORBAT mapping. Dead?



I will come back to it bit later, sorry my friend...mind has been occupied elsewhere.



Joe Shearer said:


> Good Heavens, no! I believe @Nilgiri is at it, but he had, if you recall, asked for time. Let us leave him to it.



Just been so busy lately, also the situation that has developed has not been conducive to any free time I have.

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## Mercenary

The only way to take Kashmir is to force India to fight a two front war with China and Pakistan. If China threatens central India, then Pakistan can launch a massive invasion into Kashmir proper. But we don't know what India's redline is in terms of Nuclear option.

In short, since both countries have nuclear weapons, neither can defeat the other.

So what you have is a stalemate. Best to turn the LOC into a permanent border and give people on both sides of Kashmir ID special cards so they can travel and visit relatives on both sides of the border.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> I will come back to it bit later, sorry my friend...mind has been occupied elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Just been so busy lately, also the situation that has developed has not been conducive to any free time I have.



Oops. 

Read your posts most recent backwards!

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## Joe Shearer

Gryphon said:


> 35 ID.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri
> 
> This thread was supposed to yield some ORBAT mapping. Dead?




Just tried; didn't work. Do you have a suitable e-mail id? I'm just sending it to @Nilgiri.


-


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## JohnWick

SorryNotSorry said:


> In what measure is Pakistan stronger than India?


Courtesy 








Joe Shearer said:


> Just tried; didn't work. Do you have a suitable e-mail id? I'm just sending it to @Nilgiri.
> 
> 
> -


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## prashantazazel

We are mainly interested in the land and the pro India people.
Be happy with what you have.


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## MuslimRao

Arm them with high tech cameras. Produce documentaries at a world class level that showcase the plight of kashmiris. 

They will come to us for weapons when they are sick of seeing the circulating video of a child blinded, girl raped, or innocent murdered. The world will no longer be able to support India and many will sympathize with their rebellion. Perhaps other countries would turn a blind eye to Pakistan arming these groups as long as we have no intention of taking territory in India other than Kashmir. 

The Indians are playing with fire here. We are used to the flames. The game they are playing will consume them if they are not careful.


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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> Done; please check and confirm.
> 
> @Nilgiri
> 
> Hope you got it also, in earlier despatch.
> 
> Ed.: Thanks, @Nilgiri.



Joe you should probably delete this message now. I have got the email now, thanks!

@Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer 

Sneak peek....this is just Indian kashmir side, and only infantry divisions (and corps + command labels) for time being:






I will adjust scaling, layering, positioning etc after I have plotted everything. This is just an early look at it, any inputs/suggestions you have at this early stage is also welcome.

I should have something big and basic done by this week some time.

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## Fledgingwings

mastaan said:


> How? rhetoric doesn't win wars, they just push the first line of attack to their glorious deaths..
> 
> Someone said.. those who do not remember their mistakes, are condemned to repeat it
> 
> also, does this thread have a relevance for a serious defence forum?


He is mocking pakistanis you indian FOOL.......

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Joe you should probably delete this message now. I have got the email now, thanks!
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer
> 
> Sneak peek....this is just Indian kashmir side, and only infantry divisions (and corps + command labels) for time being:
> 
> View attachment 545932
> 
> 
> I will adjust scaling, layering, positioning etc after I have plotted everything. This is just an early look at it, any inputs/suggestions you have at this early stage is also welcome.
> 
> I should have something big and basic done by this week some time.


can you hurry up a bit

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> can you hurry up a bit



Yes your highness  ....truth be told I only started cpl days back lol...but I will commit spare time each day to it now (starting inertia has been overcome, momentum/incentive has been generated).

You will get more updates at the discord place (which I hope you bookmarked)....do drop by whenever you can

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Yes your highness  ....truth be told I only started cpl days back lol...but I will commit spare time each day to it now (starting inertia has been overcome, momentum/incentive has been generated).
> 
> You will get more updates at the discord place (which I hope you bookmarked)....do drop by whenever you can


As far as im looking at the map, PA seems to have more Regular forces in the area.



Nilgiri said:


> Joe you should probably delete this message now. I have got the email now, thanks!
> 
> @Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer
> 
> Sneak peek....this is just Indian kashmir side, and only infantry divisions (and corps + command labels) for time being:
> 
> View attachment 545932
> 
> 
> I will adjust scaling, layering, positioning etc after I have plotted everything. This is just an early look at it, any inputs/suggestions you have at this early stage is also welcome.
> 
> I should have something big and basic done by this week some time.



Im quoting data from @Gryphon post.

Opposite Indian Army 10th Infantry Div, Pakistan has some elements of 1 Strike Corps:

*1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

17 Infantry Division - Kharian
37 Infantry Division - Kharian
8 IABG - Kharian

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> As far as im looking at the map, PA seems to have more Regular forces in the area.



I'm gonna finish up the Indian side first.....then I will do the Pakistan side....I think blue would be a reasonable colour.


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## Signalian

@Nilgiri 

Similarly, Opposite to Indian Army, 25th Infantry Division, Pakistan Army has deployed:

*10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*

23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
Reserve 10 Corps:

19 Infantry Division - Mangla



Nilgiri said:


> I'm gonna finish up the Indian side first.....then I will do the Pakistan side....I think blue would be a reasonable colour.


You could make Indian Army Blue colored, Pakistan Army Green.....since @Joe Shearer is not a fan of RED

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> You could make Indian Army Blue colored, Pakistan Army Green.....since @Joe Shearer is not a fan of RED



It's all easily changeable later ....right now I'm just going to get something out there first .

Good thing is because the program has layering, its very easy to move and change things later as needed (once you put them in etc)....without leaving weird stuff behind (i.e base map stays unaffected).

Then in the very final iterations we can add arrows etc on top (you lot can scribble, we can discuss etc...and then I'll add them to the main picture etc).

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> It's all easily changeable later ....right now I'm just going to get something out there first .
> 
> Good thing is because the program has layering, its very easy to move and change things later as needed (once you put them in etc)....without leaving weird stuff behind (i.e base map stays unaffected).
> 
> Then in the very final iterations we can add arrows etc on top (you lot can scribble, we can discuss etc...and then I'll add them to the main picture etc).


yar im not running ahead of you...

Somethings come easy to me, i can map the whole scenario in my head and then can form out a detailed plan drawn on aims to be completed. Since you sent the picture of of that area, so the terrain, roads, peaks, hills, available forces, reserves, attacking and counter attacking avenues, defensive lines etc started to form a picture in my head.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> yar im not running ahead of you...
> 
> Somethings come easy to me, i can map the whole scenario in my head and then can form out a detailed plan drawn on aims to be completed. Since you sent the picture of of that area, so the terrain, roads, peaks, hills, available forces, reserves, attacking and counter attacking avenues, defensive lines etc started to form a picture in my head.



Great, its only going to get better with time as I put more stuff in . @The Sandman asked me "where are the air force bases?" when he looked at the sneak peek lol....and fair enough, thats something to think about integrating in at later point too.


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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Great, its only going to get better with time as I put more stuff in . @The Sandman asked me "where are the air force bases?" when he looked at the sneak peek lol....and fair enough, thats something to think about integrating in at later point too.


You have a list of FOB's ?

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> You have a list of FOB's ?



We'll figure all that out bit later. Sticking to the higher order + ground based stuff for now.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> We'll figure all that out bit later. Sticking to the higher order + ground based stuff for now.


ohhh no no no..... im not letting you go that easy ..... is there any information on air combat over this zone in 65 or 71 ?

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> ohhh no no no..... im not letting you go that easy ..... is there any information on air combat over this zone in 65 or 71 ?



@Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 would be the ones to ask  I'm not that big into the detailed war history of modern subcontinent.

Thats why I think the discord would be useful place to do stuff real time - research + interaction wise 

@Signalian @Gryphon 

In meantime, if either of you could get a word document in one place of the most up to date official orbat of Pak army like what @Joe Shearer sent me, that would be great. It just makes things lot more convenient for me to refer to (you can see I can just add "done" to task as I plot something):

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> @Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 would be the ones to ask  I'm not that big into the detailed war history of modern subcontinent.
> 
> Thats why I think the discord would be useful place to do stuff real time - research + interaction wise
> 
> @Signalian @Gryphon
> 
> In meantime, if either of you could get a word document in one place of the most up to date official orbat of Pak army like what @Joe Shearer sent me, that would be great. It just makes things lot more convenient for me to refer to (you can see I can just add "done" to task as I plot something):
> 
> View attachment 546165




If @Gryphon is lazy, then i will jump in.

Meanwhile, do factor in IA IX Corps since it seems to have 26 ID In Jammu and 29 ID in Pathankot and the area east and south of Pathankot is very crucial as it will bring in IA reinforcements from Yol and it also joins up with Amritsar in south to defend the area.

From Pakistan perspective, XXX Corps in Sialkot will have to defend Shakargarh opposite Pathankot, as well as ingress north towards Jammu so it gets divided straightaway.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> do factor in



If its in Joe's list, it will be included don't you worry (he's done a good job)....yes IX Corps is on it (just didn't get to mapping it yet....but lot of it will be done tonite and tm nite). Though good thing you brought it up, coz I just checked on globalsecurity and you are indeed correct 26th is in Jammu and 29th in pathankot (Joe had these reversed by mistake I think).

I will thus be cross verifying with globalsecurity and other sources at the end of it all too to catch any errors like this on Joe's list....coz I noticed a few divisions might be missing as well.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> If its in Joe's list, it will be included don't you worry (he's done a good job)....yes IX Corps is on it (just didn't get to mapping it yet....but lot of it will be done tonite and tm nite). Though good thing you brought it up, coz I just checked on globalsecurity and you are indeed correct 26th is in Jammu and 29th in pathankot (Joe had these reversed by mistake I think).
> 
> I will thus be cross verifying with globalsecurity and other sources at the end of it all too to catch any errors like this on Joe's list....coz I noticed a few divisions might be missing as well.


Chup ho ja please  You shouldn't have brought it up coz now Joe will point his guns at me that I'm fully monitoring IA formations as well as pointing out mistakes in his work .....abhi to mein map zoom in kar k Yol cantonment mein ghussnay laga tha to see if T-72's were the only MBT's parked in IA Armd Bde's inventory or T-90 can be seen too haha.

By the way i was looking at terrain for armored combat and unfortunately that terrain is mostly inside Pakistan since inside India, hilly area starts straightaway around Jammu, Kathua and Pathankot, whereas inside Pakistan area, Shakargarh, Zafarwal, Pasrur, Daska, Sialkot is mostly flat terrain and plains.

I think a jump off point for 6th Armored Division could be Shakargarh....either going east towards Pathankot and then turning south towards Gurdaspur. Or Just towards Gurdaspur or Batala, heading towards Amritsar.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Chup ho ja please  You shouldn't have brought it up coz now Joe will point his guns at me that I'm fully monitoring IA formations as well as pointing out mistakes in his work .....abhi to mein map zoom in kar k Yol cantonment mein ghussnay laga tha to see if T-72's were the only MBT's parked in IA Armd Bde's inventory or T-90 can be seen too haha.
> 
> By the way i was looking at terrain for armored combat and unfortunately that terrain is mostly inside Pakistan since inside India, hilly area starts straightaway around Jammu, Kathua and Pathankot, whereas inside Pakistan area, Shakargarh, Zafarwal, Pasrur, Daska, Sialkot is mostly flat terrain and plains.
> 
> I think a jump off point for 6th Armored Division could be Shakargarh....either going east towards Pathankot and then turning south towards Gurdaspur. Or Just towards Gurdaspur or Batala, heading towards Amritsar.



Let's get everything mapped out and then this fun discussion can commence in earnest 

More stuff has been populated tonite (all purely IA INF divisions are done I believe + corps + command labelling), updated it to discord too:











Tomorrow and next cpl days... I will work on mountain divisions, armoured divisions, RAPID, artillery divisions, IABGs, other brigades etc.

Symbols coming up:







etc...

Again dont worry about the "squishing" due to zoom out, I will make it neat and clear in the end in one fell swoop (at whichever zoom level we deem as the "base zoom") ....after populating PAK side as well with all its stuff.

Might as well do everything right now (in large master version) to save time later if we are gonna do any ORBAT/wargaming for other scenarios/locales.

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> If @Gryphon is lazy, then i will jump in.
> 
> Meanwhile, do factor in IA IX Corps since it seems to have 26 ID In Jammu and 29 ID in Pathankot and the area east and south of Pathankot is very crucial as it will bring in IA reinforcements from Yol and it also joins up with Amritsar in south to defend the area.
> 
> From Pakistan perspective, XXX Corps in Sialkot will have to defend Shakargarh opposite Pathankot, as well as ingress north towards Jammu so it gets divided straightaway.



?? 9 Corps (they like that way, instead of IX) was there in my tables. I will revise and send @Nilgiri that revision.

I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts. Your comment about XXX Corps noted. More after the boss finishes his diagramming.

About air combat, I don't know of anything readymade; the best option is @jbgt90 once he is a little free (busy time for him now).

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> ?? 9 Corps (they like that way, instead of IX) was there in my tables. I will revise and send @Nilgiri that revision.
> 
> I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts. Your comment about XXX Corps noted. More after the boss finishes his diagramming.
> 
> About air combat, I don't know of anything readymade; the best option is @jbgt90 once he is a little free (busy time for him now).



its fine, I already switched it around (jammu to pathankot for 26th and 29th) on the version I am working off. I will do a full final check at the end using globalsecurity and run anything discrepancy wise by you lot:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/divisions.htm



Joe Shearer said:


> I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts.



Excellent, in this case nothing much needed from @Signalian and @Gryphon (for now) ....please ignore my previous request

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## CrazyZ

Retaking Kashmir through conventional war is not possible at this time. It is good that its being discussed at PDF, Pakistan has been too gun shy in even thinking of liberating Kashmir with conventional warfare. That mind set has to end going forward with the change in the Indian posture. India wants to challenge Pakistan's "nuclear bluff" with hit and raids with a low enough threshold so WMD won't be used. The current crisis showed India was not serious about escalation and Pakistan is free to counter strike. If it becomes possible to do so Pakistan should counter strike with an all out air land assault to liberate Kashmir.


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## MIG21DOWN

Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir. Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.

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## Gryphon

@Signalian

Reply to posts #179, #189 and #191.

After PA moved 6 Armoured Division from Kharian to Gujranwala, IA converted the Akhnoor based 10 Inf Div into RAPID, which means it has an integral armd bde now besides the infantry bdes.

PA responded by adding few HAT companies to 23 Inf Div (its AOR extends upto Chenab river), supplementing the existing armoured regiment.

8 IABG (of 1 Corps) remains in Kharian and can opt to mount a counter-offensive towards Akhnoor either through Pallanwala or through the Chicken's neck (after crossing the Chenab within Pak territory). 17 Inf Div or 37 Inf Div (both Kharian-based) may provide additional mechanized/motorized infantry.

Little down south, 8 Inf Div and 15 Inf Div (both Sialkot-based) along with the Gujranwala based 19 IABG are expected to defend Sialkot-Shakargarh area from IA's Jammu based 26 Inf Div and Pathankot based 29 Inf Div backed by 2x or 3x IABG's.

Gujranwala based 6 Armd Div along with the co-located 2 Arty Div and an Inf Div from Kharian may be used to assault a selected tract in the Jammu-Samba-Kathua-Pathankot axis relieving pressure off 30 Corps formations.

IA also has the 39 Mountain Div at Palampur, from which mountain infantry/artillery may be harvested.

Overall, I see PA's position better.

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## CrazyZ

MIG21DOWN said:


> Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides.



One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Using unconventional warfare will only reinforce India's position that Pakistan supports terrorism. There will be massive pressure to stop backing terrorists from the international community. 

Its better to go the conventional route. Let India be the aggressor, let them execute a hit and run raid and we counter with an all out air land assault into the valley and northern portions of Kashmir. We would have 3 - 5 days before the international community step's in. Leh and srinigar air bases would have to be destroyed, if successful the Paf can establish local air superiority over the valley and go to work bombing Indian positions on the Loc and in the valley. Local militants can help by attacking behind the Loc. Then the pa attacks.

I would only attempt this if we can reach our objectives within a few days. If its not possible then we wait for a better time. If they want to escalate in the south that's what the nuke are for.


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## Nilgiri

@Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer 

I have found a few discrepancies in some sources from what Joe sent me for Pak ORBAT. 

Could you guys look this over real quick (from wiki) and tell me if this checks out commands/corps/organisation wise?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Pakistan_Army_Structure.png







just as a starting place, its fine right?

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> @Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer
> 
> I have found a few discrepancies in some sources from what Joe sent me for Pak ORBAT.
> 
> Could you guys look this over real quick (from wiki) and tell me if this checks out commands/corps/organisation wise?:
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Pakistan_Army_Structure.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just as a starting place, its fine right?


Post # 132



Gryphon said:


> @Signalian
> 
> Reply to posts #179, #189 and #191.
> 
> After PA moved 6 Armoured Division from Kharian to Gujranwala, IA converted the Akhnoor based 10 Inf Div into RAPID, which means it has an integral armd bde now besides the infantry bdes.
> 
> PA responded by adding few HAT companies to 23 Inf Div (its AOR extends upto Chenab river), supplementing the existing armoured regiment.
> 
> 8 IABG (of 1 Corps) remains in Kharian and can opt to mount a counter-offensive towards Akhnoor either through Pallanwala or through the Chicken's neck (after crossing the Chenab within Pak territory). 17 Inf Div or 37 Inf Div (both Kharian-based) may provide additional mechanized/motorized infantry.
> 
> Little down south, 8 Inf Div and 15 Inf Div (both Sialkot-based) along with the Gujranwala based 19 IABG are expected to defend Sialkot-Shakargarh area from IA's Jammu based 26 Inf Div and Pathankot based 29 Inf Div backed by 2x or 3x IABG's.
> 
> Gujranwala based 6 Armd Div along with the co-located 2 Arty Div and an Inf Div from Kharian may be used to assault a selected tract in the Jammu-Samba-Kathua-Pathankot axis relieving pressure off 30 Corps formations.
> 
> IA also has the 39 Mountain Div at Palampur, from which mountain infantry/artillery may be harvested.
> 
> Overall, I see PA's position better.




If 6 Armoured Division blocks enemy pouring into Jammu from Pathankot (and beyond it from east) and completely takes over the area ensuring IA armor don't cross Pathankot, then there is a slight chance of success in taking Jammu and the rest of the belt towards west.

However, IAF will start flying in infantry reinforcements from all over India into Srinagar and thus IA forces in J&K will get supplemeted.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Post # 132



Yeah but I mean in terms of the higher level "commands" to have equivalency with what I got for northern, western etc etc commands on Indian side.

In both gryphon and Joe table, X and XI corps have no command.

Are central and southern commands (which now seems to be called western + sindh commands in some places)...the old or new system of organisation?

Or is it more because of newer parlance? i.e on wiki it says the punjab strike command was "formerly" the central command etc.

Have a lookie @Gryphon :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army#Commands


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## Nilgiri

OK gryphon told me just Central and Southern commands exist. Please ignore last post.

@Gryphon Are X and XI corps assigned to any command?

More symbols are ready now:

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## Signalian

@Nilgiri 

PA uses Mujahid and Janbaz battalions as well as Rangers atleast at Sialkot and onwards on IB towards Lahore...while IA uses BSF? what about CPRF?


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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> PA uses Mujahid and Janbaz battalions as well as Rangers atleast at Sialkot and onwards on IB towards Lahore...while IA uses BSF? what about CPRF?



Yes MoD has deployed BSF mostly (at border), CRPF is deployed little more interior. ITBP also comes into picture in the area to some degree.

Paramilitary wise, do you think we should map them out later?


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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Yes MoD has deployed BSF mostly (at border), CRPF is deployed little more interior. ITBP also comes into picture in the area to some degree.
> 
> Paramilitary wise, do you think we should map them out later?


yes later...i think that some of PA regular formations have NG battalions.

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## Tom M

MIG21DOWN said:


> Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. *Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir.* Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.



Idea sounds really good. But then Pakistan won't need any enemies rather the so called assets for your doom. FATF, UNO, UNSC, sanctions. Does the above ring a bell ???


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## Tom M

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
> Kashmiri will be freed inshallah
> 
> View attachment 541270
> 
> 
> So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already
> 
> Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure
> 
> May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face



Pakistan is ready to use nukes if your territorial integrity is under threat. Then why is the world people live under the impression that it can be same for others as well??

Kashmir is very much an India territory like Delhi, Mumbai or any other place.

If it comes to a bloody civil war (highly unlikely) where do you think the local militias will get their advanced and sophisticated weapons ?? And then how can it stop from being a full fudged war between two countries ?? 

India is ready to commit our entire GDP, defence forces as well as 1.3 Billion population on Kashmir. We think Kashmir is worth it. The real question to you,is Kashmir worth entire Pakistan???

Well in the event of a war, TAMACHA it will be but not sure about face though.

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## Signalian

@Gryphon 
Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.

Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
*Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. *Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. Is there any other road leading to Jammu?
*ORANGE *depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.

6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.

*TARGET A:* A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.

*TARGET A Extended:* 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.

*TARGET B:* 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.

*TARGET C:* 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.

Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> View attachment 546505
> 
> @Gryphon
> Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
> Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.
> 
> Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
> *Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. *Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. Is there any other road leading to Jammu?
> *ORANGE *depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.
> 
> 6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.
> 
> *TARGET A:* A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.
> 
> *TARGET A Extended:* 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.
> 
> *TARGET B:* 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.
> 
> *TARGET C:* 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.
> 
> Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.




I LOVE your maps and HATE your fonts. They are meant (the fonts) for 30-somethings. 

Your general appreciation is fair enough, but there are other considerations; let @Nilgiri's picturisation appear, and we can talk about it.

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> However, IAF will start flying in infantry reinforcements from all over India into Srinagar and thus IA forces in J&K will get supplemeted.



Light infantry reinforcements are already there in Jammu & Kashmir in the shape of 5× Rashtriya Rifles Div sized forces. Plus, plenty of BSF, SSB, CRPF and ITBP battalions.



Signalian said:


> View attachment 546505
> 
> @Gryphon
> Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
> Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.
> 
> Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
> *Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. *Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. *Is there any other road leading to Jammu?*



Near Pathankot, two separate roads leading to Jammu emerge. The main highway runs close to the Working boundary, the other is a hilly route through Mahanpur (see in above pic).



> *ORANGE* depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.
> 
> 6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.
> 
> *TARGET A:* A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.
> 
> *TARGET A Extended:* 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.
> 
> *TARGET B:* 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.
> 
> *TARGET C:* 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.
> 
> Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.



The Ravi sits on the approaches to Pathankot and Gurdaspur, making a Div sized assault difficult.

If the aim is Jammu, it should be a simultaneous assault from two sides - one by 8 IABG + 23 Inf Div + 17 or 37 Inf Div on Akhnoor (defender: 10 RAPID) through the Chicken's neck and the main offensive by 6 Armd Div + 19 IABG + 37 or 17 Inf Div + 2 Arty Div on Jammu through Charwa (defenders: 2 or 3 IABG's + 26 Inf Div).

8 and 15 Inf Div's may be used to defend Shakargarh from the Pathankot based 29 Inf Div. 30 Corps established a new Cantt at Pasrur few years back to better manage this area.

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## Nilgiri

OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).

Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.

In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer






When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.

@waz @WAJsal @Horus

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).
> 
> Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.
> 
> In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.
> 
> @Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.
> 
> @waz @WAJsal @Horus




Awaiting reactions from the other two. @[S]Gryphon[/S]Signalian has already crossed the Jammu Tawi and is well on the way to Patni Top.

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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> @[S]Gryphon[/S]Signalian has already crossed the Jammu Tawi and is well on the way to Patni Top.


What was that famous dialogue in that movie.... "You just hate me coz im Black" !!!



Nilgiri said:


> OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).
> 
> Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.
> 
> In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.
> 
> @Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.
> 
> @waz @WAJsal @Horus


Yar it seems good to me.

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> What was that famous dialogue in that movie.... "You just hate me coz im Black" !!!
> 
> 
> Yar it seems good to me.



LOL.

Just waiting to spring my revised configuration on youse.

On the existing orbat, we are sitting ducks.

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## A.P. Richelieu

MIG21DOWN said:


> Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir. Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.



So You admit that Pakistan is fighting the US in Afghanistan?
That might not be the smartest thing to do.
If the US has no more forces in Afghanistan, they might see the opportunity to get even.


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## Nilgiri

Got a few questions in the meantime I compiled as I plotted @Joe Shearer ....no rush and no biggie if you don't know (I've just gone and assumed a few things to get them on paper):

72nd MTN division in Pathankot? even though its under Eastern command?

Any info on the third MTN division in XVII Corps? I've left it out from the map for now...its a "?" in the orbat table.

MTN divisions in wiki ORBAT missing from list (and new ones on your list aren't present in the wiki)...is the wiki stuff outdated (i.e stuff has been re-organised etc)? You can see on the left hand side here:






340th mechanized brigade --- I am assuming its mechanized infantry brigade?

The seperately listed Armoured regiments in XVII Corps (Eastern)....should I include them? Right now not included.

Regarding 23rd ARMR and 4th ARMR brigades...are they independent (IABG) like the rest or just regular units assigned to the corps?

EDIT: Also are the map colours fine so far? Not too jarring? I used the more lighter coloured terrain so the red isnt too jarring with deep green etc.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> If the aim is Jammu, it should be a simultaneous assault from two sides - one by 8 IABG + 23 Inf Div + 17 or 37 Inf Div on Akhnoor (defender: 10 RAPID) through the Chicken's neck and the main offensive by 6 Armd Div + 19 IABG + 37 or 17 Inf Div + 2 Arty Div on Jammu through Charwa (defenders: 2 or 3 IABG's + 26 Inf Div).
> 
> 8 and 15 Inf Div's may be used to defend Shakargarh from the Pathankot based 29 Inf Div. 30 Corps established a new Cantt at Pasrur few years back to better manage this area.


6th Armored will have more freedom in open areas and plains to operate than to converge at Jammu. 8 IABG can do the job. India will retaliate with full force to relieve Jammu .

6th Armored Div should be sent on offensive towards Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur to block the roads leading upto Jammu:
1. Any Indian armored forces rushing to Jammu from Pathankot and beyond, have to be stopped.

2. An offensive by 6th Armd Div into India will force India to commit one of its Armd Divs into that salient instead of keeping it reserve for later. 

3. IA armored formations could open a new front near Shakargarh and Sialkot, 8 IABG will have a lot of front to cover which cannot be managed if 6th Armored Div is sent towards Jammu. 

4. By sending 6th Armored Div east, PA will dissect IA formations by opening two fronts simultaneously, one at Jammu and one at Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur through 6th Armd Div.

5. IA will need to stop 6th Armored Div entering into India before it commits its forces to counter attack at Shakargarh-Sialkot axis.6th Armored will ensure that IA doesnt enter Shakargarh-Sialkot axis so this area will get defended automatically through offensive of 6th Armd Div, and the Div could also fall back if it needs to retreat and defend this area. Defense through offense basically. 

6. 8 IABG and IABG's of XXX Corps are decent in numbers to provide armored force for attack on Jammu, supporting 1 or 2 PA infantry Divs.

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## Nilgiri

@Signalian @Joe Shearer @Gryphon

Everything on Joe's tables from both sides has been populated, here is sneak peek:






All that remains now is for me to put in some lines for networking the commands and corps etc and then export/compile the mega file. You can point out any corrections/inputs then.

Then I will update anything you guys want that was missed.

BTW for now I am ignoring specialised regiments and battalions etc (i.e anything lower than brigade level)...I will put them in later if we feel the need.

Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.

EDIT: the bigger higher resolution file (of sneak peek) is on discord

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> @Signalian @Joe Shearer @Gryphon
> 
> Everything on Joe's tables from both sides has been populated, here is sneak peek:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All that remains now is for me to put in some lines for networking the commands and corps etc and then export/compile the mega file. You can point out any corrections/inputs then.
> 
> Then I will update anything you guys want that was missed.
> 
> BTW for now I am ignoring specialised regiments and battalions etc (i.e anything lower than brigade level)...I will put them in later if we feel the need.
> 
> Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.
> 
> EDIT: the bigger higher resolution file (of sneak peek) is on discord


How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?


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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?



The info on joe's table says they are under XVI Corps (Nagrota) under Northern Command. It is placeholder area for now because there is no specific location assigned to them....unless anyone can update more specific info for me etc.

In any wargaming you guys do I can easily move them around as you guys want. This is just master "peacetime" assignment. We will make any iterations as you guys want to.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> The info on joe's table says they are under XVI Corps (Nagrota) under Northern Command. It is placeholder area for now because there is no specific location assigned to them....unless anyone can update more specific info for me etc.
> 
> In any wargaming you guys do I can easily move them around as you guys want. This is just master "peacetime" assignment. We will make any iterations as you guys want to.


Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front 

A job well done @Nilgiri

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> A job well done @Nilgiri



Thanks mate. This should be a resilient architecture for long term use (so the time invested now pays itself off easily and quickly I think). I will figure out a bit later best way to make it easily accessible for any interested forum users etc to use over time....in like a sandbox/playground format

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## Gryphon

Nilgiri said:


> Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.




There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.
_EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's)._



Signalian said:


> How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?



I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.

26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.

2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).

The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.



BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.


IABG ?


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## Nilgiri

Gryphon said:


> There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.
> 
> 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.
> 
> There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.
> 
> I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.
> _EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's)._
> 
> 
> 
> I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.
> 
> 26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.
> 
> 2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).
> 
> The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.



Buddy, once I have the final draft version, please add all the arrows to move things around and cross things out and add any more info/units you want to see etc.

Then hopefully we can get consensus with @Joe Shearer and hopefully @jbgt90 too. @Vibrio will be bit busy and away for sometime.

Then I will give the final agreed release with all corrections. This was just using Joe Table as exercise to get familiar with the program I was using quickly.

With final release again, people can scribble lines on it etc as they want to...and I can update that to specific iterations etc.

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## Signalian

@Gryphon 

PA formations are sometimes lesser in strength than IA. For an offensive, a division could be reinforced with brigades or battalions or company from other formations. This is very disappointing. A formation should be able to sustain its operations by itself, it should be given all such assets fully dedicated to it.

PA psyche is, if a formation is swelled up and is usually bigger than a regular formation, either attach more troops to it and start an offensive against an even bigger enemy formation otherwise start diluting it and bring it to regular sized formation strength and send its shaved off troops elsewhere. Conversely, If a formation is smaller than regular formation, start attaching paramilitary troops to it to make up the numbers.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> @Gryphon
> 
> PA formations are sometimes lesser in strength than IA. For an offensive, a division could be reinforced with brigades or battalions or company from other formations. This is very disappointing. A formation should be able to sustain its operations by itself, it should be given all such assets fully dedicated to it.
> 
> PA psyche is, if a formation is swelled up and is usually bigger than a regular formation, either attach more troops to it and start an offensive against an even bigger enemy formation otherwise start diluting it and bring it to regular sized formation strength and send its shaved off troops elsewhere. Conversely, If a formation is smaller than regular formation, start attaching paramilitary troops to it to make up the numbers.



Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.

Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.
> 
> Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...



PA plays around with formations and their strengths alot. As an example, lets have a look at 8th Independent Armored Brigade. It usually has the following composition:
1. Armored Regiment
2. Armored Regiment
3. Mechanized Infantry Battalion
4. Artillery Regiment
5. Indp Coy Signals


Where as, following is the composition of 8th Independent Armored Brigade in 1971 war:
1. 13 Lancers (Armored Regiment)
2. 27 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
3. 31 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
4. 11 Indp Armored Squadron (Armored Squadron)
5. 29 FF (Mechanized Infantry Battalion)

and when you look at 6th Armored Division composition in 1971 war:
1. 24 Cavalry
2. 25 Cavalry
3. 51 lancers
4. 11 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division) 
5. 28 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)

Ironically, 6th Armored Division's strength was lesser than 8th Independent Armored Brigade in the process of the 1971 war.

I hope you get an idea how Pakistan mixes up formations and attaches brigades, battalions, regiments, companies etc from one formation to another in course of war.

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## Nilgiri

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer 

The issue that presents now is both exporting and hosting at (max) resolution. I have found a few quick workarounds for time being (in interests of time) but will investigate further if required.

For now I will come back to the ORBAT map after we have first list of corrections/suggestions from all interested.

In the master (exported) map, I have left out Eastern India for time being (I might make that a separate export etc)....I'll get around to adding it later once we have fixed anything in immediate IND-PAK border area. There are couple stitching issues (because of max export size available...that I will again look into later if required (and if they are even relevant/noticeable).

For now I feel these will serve our purpose for identifying mistakes/corrections in crucial areas in zoomed in area... (the zoomed outversion is just to show you the size of the master image). Remember I can go much more detailed resolution (for say version 2 - which I think will be the "FINAL") etc once we have fixed anything that need to be fixed in this "chicken neck" area. The labelling etc all becomes lot better/clearer at max resolution...so dont worry about that.

Also if you want any other zoomed in spots right now to check out whats there...just request me here.

(Click for bigger):

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## Signalian

@Nilgiri 

@Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> @Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios



That is hopefully what the discord area will be, so we can be more interactive + real time on suggestions etc

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## nahtanbob

CrazyZ said:


> One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Using unconventional warfare will only reinforce India's position that Pakistan supports terrorism. There will be massive pressure to stop backing terrorists from the international community.
> 
> Its better to go the conventional route. Let India be the aggressor, let them execute a hit and run raid and we counter with an all out air land assault into the valley and northern portions of Kashmir. We would have 3 - 5 days before the international community step's in. Leh and srinigar air bases would have to be destroyed, if successful the Paf can establish local air superiority over the valley and go to work bombing Indian positions on the Loc and in the valley. Local militants can help by attacking behind the Loc. Then the pa attacks.
> 
> I would only attempt this if we can reach our objectives within a few days. If its not possible then we wait for a better time. If they want to escalate in the south that's what the nuke are for.



ignoring military matters for a moment an all out conventional war with india will cost pakistan billion dollars a day


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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> IABG ?



Bde got 31 Corps insignia, and not that of 26 Mech Div.

I have just noticed some recent re-organization in PA, involves multiple divisions, will update when more details are received.
Will also include PA Air Defence formations in my update to post #132. 

@Joe Shearer FYI


@Nilgiri 

Remove Arty / AD Bdes from IA map, these are mostly U/I and don't serve any purpose here if their PA equivalents aren't mentioned.

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## Jugger

Mercenary said:


> The only way to take Kashmir is to force India to fight a two front war with China and Pakistan. If China threatens central India, then Pakistan can launch a massive invasion into Kashmir proper. But we don't know what India's redline is in terms of Nuclear option.
> 
> In short, since both countries have nuclear weapons, neither can defeat the other.
> 
> So what you have is a stalemate. Best to turn the LOC into a permanent border and give people on both sides of Kashmir ID special cards so they can travel and visit relatives on both sides of the border.


This is the most practical answer to the Kashmir issue ATM.


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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> @Nilgiri
> 
> @Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios



Great idea!



Nilgiri said:


> That is hopefully what the discord area will be, so we can be more interactive + real time on suggestions etc



Tell me more about the 'discord' thingy. I have had a few bad days, spent at home in bed, so will concentrate on activating that asap. TIA.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Kashmir is important for us from strategic point of view and rivers are also flowing from Kashmir. We should continue their support & liberate kashmir..

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## Joe Shearer

Signalian said:


> PA plays around with formations and their strengths alot. As an example, lets have a look at 8th Independent Armored Brigade. It usually has the following composition:
> 1. Armored Regiment
> 2. Armored Regiment
> 3. Mechanized Infantry Battalion
> 4. Artillery Regiment
> 5. Indp Coy Signals
> 
> 
> Where as, following is the composition of 8th Independent Armored Brigade in 1971 war:
> 1. 13 Lancers (Armored Regiment)
> 2. 27 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
> 3. 31 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
> 4. 11 Indp Armored Squadron (Armored Squadron)
> 5. 29 FF (Mechanized Infantry Battalion)
> 
> and when you look at 6th Armored Division composition in 1971 war:
> 1. 24 Cavalry
> 2. 25 Cavalry
> 3. 51 lancers
> 4. 11 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)
> 5. 28 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)
> 
> Ironically, 6th Armored Division's strength was lesser than 8th Independent Armored Brigade in the process of the 1971 war.
> 
> I hope you get an idea how Pakistan mixes up formations and attaches brigades, battalions, regiments, companies etc from one formation to another in course of war.



I noticed that, trying to reconstruct events in that conflict, and in 1965, and got thoroughly muddled. Why is that, @Signalian?



Nilgiri said:


> Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.
> 
> Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...



Not well. So sorry.



Signalian said:


> Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front
> 
> A job well done @Nilgiri



Very well done.

As for the T-90 bit, forget about @jbgt90; ever wondered why I have been consistently for the Arjuna, and always opposed this Dinky toy? I'll have to reduce my waist size back to 36 from the present 40.



Signalian said:


> Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front
> 
> A job well done @Nilgiri



AND I'd rather concentrate on beefing up our artillery. What we really need is a counter-measure to the PA's damned Chinese MBRLs, with a range of at least 150 kms. Five batteries ranged along the lower slopes of the mountains overlooking the Shakargarh bulge.



Gryphon said:


> There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.
> 
> 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.
> 
> There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.
> 
> I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.
> _EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's)._
> 
> 
> 
> I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.



All the information is not available in public. Plus different sources have different accounts.



> 26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.
> 
> 2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).
> 
> The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.



Two points:

Samba is barely 40 kms from Jammu; it takes a T-90 less than an hour to get to Jammu.
16th Light Cavalry is a legacy regiment; look it up when you have some spare time. Muchu Chaudhuri was a CO (Harbaksh thought he thought too much of himself as an authority on armoured warfare); Leslie Sawhney and Bubbles Habibullah were both officers. I mention Leslie Sawhney being a former Tata employee; Tata employees will 'get it'.
They are fiddling around with 9 Corps; there will be changes if there are not already changes. The only person who can tell us is better advised not to comment on these, and has been holding his silence. About 9 Corps, I was told that they write it as '9', not as 'IX' because 'XI' Corps is also a part of the Command and there would be too many Xs and Is flying around. Not my story; just repeating what was learnt over a beer many moons ago.





> BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.



Not the right time for a detailed response, but one or two points:



Signalian said:


> 6th Armored will have more freedom in open areas and plains to operate than to converge at Jammu. 8 IABG can do the job. India will retaliate with full force to relieve Jammu .



There is already reinforcement at Nagrota, which is only 12 kms from Jammu, admittedly over difficult roads (a good way to get a map reference is to select a walking transit from A to B; the gradients show up as a cross-section below).



> 6th Armored Div should be sent on offensive towards Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur to block the roads leading upto Jammu:
> 1. Any Indian armored forces rushing to Jammu from Pathankot and beyond, have to be stopped.
> 
> 2. An offensive by 6th Armd Div into India will force India to commit one of its Armd Divs into that salient instead of keeping it reserve for later.
> 
> 3. IA armored formations could open a new front near Shakargarh and Sialkot, 8 IABG will have a lot of front to cover which cannot be managed if 6th Armored Div is sent towards Jammu.





> 4. By sending 6th Armored Div east, PA will dissect IA formations by opening two fronts simultaneously, one at Jammu and one at Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur through 6th Armd Div.



IMHO, a bad idea for the smaller force to divide its resources. They should concentrate everything into one consolidated push. 

On the other side of the wall, I do hope that is what will happen.



> 5. IA will need to stop 6th Armored Div entering into India before it commits its forces to counter attack at Shakargarh-Sialkot axis.6th Armored will ensure that IA doesnt enter Shakargarh-Sialkot axis so this area will get defended automatically through offensive of 6th Armd Div, and the Div could also fall back if it needs to retreat and defend this area. Defense through offense basically.
> 
> 6. 8 IABG and IABG's of XXX Corps are decent in numbers to provide armored force for attack on Jammu, supporting 1 or 2 PA infantry Divs.

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## Nilgiri

OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed. 

I spent a while making those AAD symbols . 

Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.

I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.

@Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.

Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed.
> 
> I spent a while making those AAD symbols .
> 
> Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.
> 
> I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.
> 
> @Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.
> 
> Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.



Go ahead and put those Bde's.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Go ahead and put those Bde's.



OK can you list any on Pakistan side for me too? (Indepndent Arty and AAD brigades) Or at least the most prominent ones that you think will play the biggest role etc.

I know gryphon mentioned few earlier already...lets pick which ones we want on the map:


_There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's._

_1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each._

_There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ._

_I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132._
i.e:

Clarification of point 1 needed.

Point 2, both PA arty divs are on map (one at gujranwala, one near Sukkur)

Point 3 clarification, AD division? @Joe Shearer Does India have something like this?

Point 4, I could use some engineer brigade info for PA (at least the main prominent ones) since I have those on Indian side. Signals and support stuff we will ignore I think....just assume they are tagged with relevant formations.

@Gryphon I will make an iteration just for you without any brigades at all except IABGs.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed.
> 
> I spent a while making those AAD symbols .
> 
> Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.
> 
> I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.
> 
> @Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.
> 
> Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.



Let it stay, I think. If there is war-gaming in the future of all this, then there could be a formal chin-wag on what goes in and what stays out. For now, more information is better than scrutinised and equated information.



Nilgiri said:


> OK can you list any on Pakistan side for me too? (Indepndent Arty and AAD brigades) Or at least the most prominent ones that you think will play the biggest role etc.
> 
> I know gryphon mentioned few earlier already...lets pick which ones we want on the map:
> 
> 
> _There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's._
> 
> _1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each._
> 
> _There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ._
> 
> _I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132._
> i.e:
> 
> Clarification of point 1 needed.
> 
> Point 2, both PA arty divs are on map (one at gujranwala, one near Sukkur)
> 
> Point 3 clarification, AD division? @Joe Shearer Does India have something like this?
> 
> Point 4, I could use some engineer brigade info for PA (at least the main prominent ones) since I have those on Indian side. Signals and support stuff we will ignore I think....just assume they are tagged with relevant formations.
> 
> @Gryphon I will make an iteration just for you without any brigades at all except IABGs.



On point 3, I've asked somebody; my understanding is that AD is left to a different service. Give me time to get a response.

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## Gryphon

_PA ORBAT - Updated_
*
11 Corps (HQ Peshawar):*

7 Infantry Division - Peshawar
9 Infantry Division - Kohat
104 AD Brigade - Peshawar
Corps Artillery Brigade
*10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*

FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
Corps Artillery Brigade
Reserve 10 Corps:

34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
*30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
Corps Artillery Brigade
Reserve 30 Corps:

19 IABG - Gujranwala
30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
*1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
17 Infantry Division - Kharian
19 Infantry Division - Mangla

37 Infantry Division - Kharian
8 IABG - Kharian
101 AD Brigade - Mangla
Corps Artillery Brigade
*4 Corps (HQ Lahore; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*

10 Infantry Division - Lahore
11 Infantry Division - Lahore
212 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Chunian
4 AD Brigade - Lahore
Corps Artillery Brigade
Reserve 4 Corps:

3 IABG - Chunian
*12 Corps (HQ Quetta; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

33 Infantry Division - Quetta
41 Infantry Division - Quetta
109 AD Brigade - Quetta
Corps Artillery Brigade
*31 Corps (HQ Bahawalpur; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

14 Infantry Division - Okara
35 Infantry Division - Bahawalpur
101 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Bahawalpur
105 AD Brigade - Mailsi
Corps Artillery Brigade
Reserve 31 Corps:

HQ 26 Mechanized Division - Bahawalpur (commands 10 IABG - Bahawalpur, 14 IABG - Bahawalpur and 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur)
*2 Strike Corps (HQ Multan; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

1 Armoured Division - Multan
40 Infantry Division - Okara
42 IABG - Multan
102 AD Brigade - Multan
Corps Artillery Brigade
*5 Corps (HQ Karachi; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*

16 Infantry Division - Pano Aqil
18 Infantry Division - Hyderabad
21 Artillery Division - Pano Aqil
Corps Artillery Brigade
Reserve 5 Corps:

HQ 25 Mechanized Division - Malir (commands 2 IABG - Malir, 12 IABG - Malir and 330 IABG - Malir)
31 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Karachi

*Army Air Defence Command (HQ Rawalpindi; Corps-equivalent):*

3 AD Division - Sargodha
4 AD Division - Malir

*NOTE:*

Both Infantry Divisions of 11 Corps heavily involved in COIN, op HQ's established elsewhere.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Signalian

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## Nilgiri

Gryphon said:


> _PA ORBAT - Updated_
> *
> 11 Corps (HQ Peshawar):*
> 
> 7 Infantry Division - Peshawar
> 9 Infantry Division - Kohat
> 104 AD Brigade - Peshawar
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*
> 
> FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
> 12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
> 23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 10 Corps:
> 
> 34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
> 111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
> *30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
> 8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 30 Corps:
> 
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala
> 30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
> *1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
> 17 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 19 Infantry Division - Mangla
> 
> 37 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 8 IABG - Kharian
> 101 AD Brigade - Mangla
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *4 Corps (HQ Lahore; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 10 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 11 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 212 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Chunian
> 4 AD Brigade - Lahore
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 4 Corps:
> 
> 3 IABG - Chunian
> *12 Corps (HQ Quetta; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 33 Infantry Division - Quetta
> 41 Infantry Division - Quetta
> 109 AD Brigade - Quetta
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *31 Corps (HQ Bahawalpur; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 14 Infantry Division - Okara
> 35 Infantry Division - Bahawalpur
> 101 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Bahawalpur
> 105 AD Brigade - Mailsi
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 31 Corps:
> 
> HQ 26 Mechanized Division - Bahawalpur (commands 10 IABG - Bahawalpur, 14 IABG - Bahawalpur and 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur)
> *2 Strike Corps (HQ Multan; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 1 Armoured Division - Multan
> 40 Infantry Division - Okara
> 42 IABG - Multan
> 102 AD Brigade - Multan
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *5 Corps (HQ Karachi; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 16 Infantry Division - Pano Aqil
> 18 Infantry Division - Hyderabad
> 21 Artillery Division - Pano Aqil
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 5 Corps:
> 
> HQ 25 Mechanized Division - Malir (commands 2 IABG - Malir, 12 IABG - Malir and 330 IABG - Malir)
> 31 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Karachi
> 
> *Army Air Defence Command (HQ Rawalpindi; Corps-equivalent):*
> 
> 3 AD Division - Sargodha
> 4 AD Division - Malir
> 
> *NOTE:*
> 
> Both Infantry Divisions of 11 Corps heavily involved in COIN, op HQ's established elsewhere.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Signalian



OK thanks buddy, will update as soon I got time to map.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> OK thanks buddy, will update as soon I got time to map.


He granted your wish 



Joe Shearer said:


> I noticed that, trying to reconstruct events in that conflict, and in 1965, and got thoroughly muddled. Why is that, @Signalian?


Command level set up was not efficient. Things don't go always as planned. Planning at GHQ level went awry since Corps HQ were missing. Its difficult to command Divisions from GHQ. In the end, ad hoc formations were made out of existing formations. Commanders should be with troops to lead them. Corps HQ/Div HQ/Bde HQ move forward as the troops make progress. Now the command levels have further improved by making zones like northern central, southern etc.

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## Nilgiri

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer , please check the orbat on discord when u got a chance. 

I will then post it here. I think northern theatre is of most relevance to this thread anyway, but I will also produce the updated southern theatre and master map etc a bit later depending on interest.

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> @Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer , please check the orbat on discord when u got a chance.
> 
> I will then post it here. I think northern theatre is of most relevance to this thread anyway, but I will also produce the updated southern theatre and master map etc a bit later depending on interest.


FCNA has 4 Bde's:
1. 28 Bde
2. 62 Bde
3. 80 Bde
4. 323 Bde 

Gryphon can confirm. 
FCNA Ops area looks deserted on the mountain in the north west side of Kashmir.

on your map in discord

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> FCNA has 4 Bde's:
> 1. 28 Bde
> 2. 62 Bde
> 3. 80 Bde
> 4. 323 Bde
> 
> Gryphon can confirm.
> FCNA Ops area looks deserted on the mountain in the north west side of Kashmir.
> 
> on your map in discord



Well I put it as division....we can do another variant (later) where we split all the divisions into their brigades....but things will get crowded in other parts of map. Maybe particular zones with more details we can do that kind of thing.

Let's just have understanding for now that Divisions have brigades under them....the brigades I did highlight have some individual purpose to them fairly separate/independent of the divisions around them etc (i.e IABG, IIBG, arty bde, aad bde etc).

Right now I just need to hear from Joe or someone from our end as to where to even go from here on what we want to project/analyse.


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## ali_raza

kashmir lena tha uska kia socha

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Well I put it as division....we can do another variant (later) where we split all the divisions into their brigades....but things will get crowded in other parts of map. Maybe particular zones with more details we can do that kind of thing.
> 
> Let's just have understanding for now that Divisions have brigades under them....the brigades I did highlight have some individual purpose to them fairly separate/independent of the divisions around them etc (i.e IABG, IIBG, arty bde, aad bde etc).
> 
> Right now I just need to hear from Joe or someone from our end as to where to even go from here on what we want to project/analyse.


Thats alright. 
PA is heavily armed at south of LOC, moving north the deployments become sparse, terrain becomes difficult.

plus there is paramilitary units attached in FCNA just like NG units in 12 Inf Div

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## Nilgiri

Ok first (major) release for people here to have fun with, can download and put in arrows/analysis...best ones/consensus... I will make more detailed variants for etc.

https://pichub.site/images/2019/06/07/orbatv3.jpg

@waz @WAJsal what are you thoughts on creating a pinned ORBAT analysis thread somewhere in the forum?

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## Signalian

post 246. 
28 Brigade was attached later, FCNA has 3 bde's.


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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Ok first (major) release for people here to have fun with, can download and put in arrows/analysis...best ones/consensus... I will make more detailed variants for etc.
> 
> https://pichub.site/images/2019/06/07/orbatv3.jpg
> 
> @waz @WAJsal what are you thoughts on creating a pinned ORBAT analysis thread somewhere in the forum?


Any reply from the mods ?


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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Any reply from the mods ?



Nope. Let me tag @Arsalan @Oscar too.

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## SQ8

Nilgiri said:


> Nope. Let me tag @Arsalan @Oscar too.


Wouldn’t be able to contribute mon ami. 
Plus in the heightened sec environment it behooves both ourselves to avoid being over enthusiastic lest either be branded a RAW/ISI agent.

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## Arsalan

Nilgiri said:


> Nope. Let me tag @Arsalan @Oscar too.


It will be better to avoid doing it!

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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Nope. Let me tag @Arsalan @Oscar too.


Good effort nonetheless.

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## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Good effort nonetheless.



I will resurrect and improve at a better time hopefully.

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## PanzerKiel

Gryphon said:


> _PA ORBAT - Updated_
> *
> 11 Corps (HQ Peshawar):*
> 
> 7 Infantry Division - Peshawar
> 9 Infantry Division - Kohat
> 104 AD Brigade - Peshawar
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *10 Corps (HQ Rawalpindi):*
> 
> FCNA - Gilgit (Mountain Infantry)
> 12 Infantry Division - Murree (Mountain Infantry)
> 23 Infantry Division - Jhelum
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 10 Corps:
> 
> 34 Light Infantry Division (Special Security Division) - Rawalpindi
> 111 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Rawalpindi
> *30 Corps (HQ Gujranwala; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 2 Artillery Division - Gujranwala
> 8 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 15 Infantry Division - Sialkot
> 54 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Sialkot
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 30 Corps:
> 
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala
> 30 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Lahore
> *1 Strike Corps (HQ Mangla; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 6 Armoured Division - Gujranwala
> 17 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 19 Infantry Division - Mangla
> 
> 37 Infantry Division - Kharian
> 8 IABG - Kharian
> 101 AD Brigade - Mangla
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *4 Corps (HQ Lahore; subordinate to Central Command, Kharian):*
> 
> 10 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 11 Infantry Division - Lahore
> 212 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Chunian
> 4 AD Brigade - Lahore
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 4 Corps:
> 
> 3 IABG - Chunian
> *12 Corps (HQ Quetta; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 33 Infantry Division - Quetta
> 41 Infantry Division - Quetta
> 109 AD Brigade - Quetta
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *31 Corps (HQ Bahawalpur; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 14 Infantry Division - Okara
> 35 Infantry Division - Bahawalpur
> 101 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Bahawalpur
> 105 AD Brigade - Mailsi
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 31 Corps:
> 
> HQ 26 Mechanized Division - Bahawalpur (commands 10 IABG - Bahawalpur, 14 IABG - Bahawalpur and 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur)
> *2 Strike Corps (HQ Multan; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 1 Armoured Division - Multan
> 40 Infantry Division - Okara
> 42 IABG - Multan
> 102 AD Brigade - Multan
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> *5 Corps (HQ Karachi; subordinate to Southern Command, Quetta):*
> 
> 16 Infantry Division - Pano Aqil
> 18 Infantry Division - Hyderabad
> 21 Artillery Division - Pano Aqil
> Corps Artillery Brigade
> Reserve 5 Corps:
> 
> HQ 25 Mechanized Division - Malir (commands 2 IABG - Malir, 12 IABG - Malir and 330 IABG - Malir)
> 31 Independent Infantry Brigade Group - Karachi
> 
> *Army Air Defence Command (HQ Rawalpindi; Corps-equivalent):*
> 
> 3 AD Division - Sargodha
> 4 AD Division - Malir
> 
> *NOTE:*
> 
> Both Infantry Divisions of 11 Corps heavily involved in COIN, op HQ's established elsewhere.
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Signalian



A major change occurred in this ORBAT recently. Lets wait for it to come out on PDF.



Signalian said:


> post 246.
> 28 Brigade was attached later, FCNA has 3 bde's.



28 Brigade is integral to 19 Division with an entirely different operational role, instead of operating in FCNA.

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## Gryphon

PanzerKiel said:


> A major change occurred in this ORBAT recently. Lets wait for it to come out on PDF.



@Armchair 

Look at this guy, he is creating suspense here.

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## PanzerKiel

Gryphon said:


> @Armchair
> 
> Look at this guy, he is creating suspense here.



We can have an interesting discussing on this thread if you want to revive it. Or should I stop creating suspense?

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> 28 Brigade is integral to 19 Division with an entirely different operational role, instead of operating in FCNA.


where was 28 Bde deployed in 99


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## PanzerKiel

@Gryphon
In not sure , but can we rehash IA orbat if it is around somewhere?



Signalian said:


> where was 28 Bde deployed in 99



I'll have to check.

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## Joe Shearer

PanzerKiel said:


> @Gryphon
> In not sure , but can we rehash IA orbat if it is around somewhere?



Feel free, @Signalian.

You have all the data, wherever it was first offered for consideration.



> I'll have to check.


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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> where was 28 Bde deployed in 99



It was moved and deployed in Jun 99 opposite Kargil.

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## Nilgiri

PanzerKiel said:


> @Gryphon
> In not sure , but can we rehash IA orbat if it is around somewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to check.



I have the word doc I got from Joe. Let me attach it, ignore the "done's" I filled in on left column.

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## PanzerKiel

Nilgiri said:


> I have the word doc I got from Joe. Let me attach it, ignore the "done's" I filled in on left column.



Should I amend this word file, or will discuss this orbat here?


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## Nilgiri

PanzerKiel said:


> Should I amend this word file, or will discuss this orbat here?



Definitely discuss here first (if you like to). But feel free to amend on your end as you would like too...as and when you want. It can be a "version 5".

@Joe Shearer likely will know more on this stuff overall.... (and some other members but they no longer drop by here)

I just was a mule that took what he gave me to a map layout.

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## PanzerKiel

Nilgiri said:


> Definitely discuss here first (if you like to). .
> .



That would be fine. Remember, PA has to and always keeps upto date ORBAT of IA. Likewise, they keep ours as well.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> Definitely discuss here first (if you like to). But feel free to amend on your end as you would like too...as and when you want. It can be a "version 5".
> 
> @Joe Shearer likely will know more on this stuff overall.... (and some other members but they no longer drop by here)
> 
> I just was a mule that took what he gave me to a map layout.



I was given a broad hint about my presence in these discussions, and about the possible link between the discussions and the sudden surge in the number of 'guest' onlookers during these. Perhaps I am too thin-skinned, but it seems better not to intrude in what is not intended for, shall we say, intruders.

So please, everybody, feel free to move things around as you know best. I am fine with it, and with anything else that needs to be done.

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## PanzerKiel

Joe Shearer said:


> I was given a broad hint about my presence in these discussions, and about the possible link between the discussions and the sudden surge in the number of 'guest' onlookers during these. Perhaps I am too thin-skinned, but it seems better not to intrude in what is not intended for, shall we say, intruders.
> 
> So please, everybody, feel free to move things around as you know best. I am fine with it, and with anything else that needs to be done.



No problems. And i assure you, with regards to IA orbat, i will not let the observers here feel your absence.

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## Joe Shearer

PanzerKiel said:


> No problems. And i assure you, with regards to IA orbat, i will not let the observers here feel your absence.



LOL. I am sure you will not. There are sufficient numbers of youthful experts to more than supplant my modest efforts.


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## PanzerKiel

Coming to NC...
@Nilgiri 

Do please add an additional mountain brigade directly under 14 Corps. Moreover, for 15 Corps, directly under Corps, there are additional two mountain brigades and and AD Brigade.

For 16 Corps, 39 Division is not part of it. You can also minus the three IABs from 16 Corps. You can add additional infantry brigade directly under 16 Corps.

Another thing, for all Commands of IA, do not forget that there are command reserves as well.
In case of NC, these are 39 Mountain Division and an additional AD Brigade.

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## Joe Shearer

PanzerKiel said:


> Coming to NC...
> @Nilgiri
> 
> Do please add an additional mountain brigade directly under 14 Corps. Moreover, for 15 Corps, directly under Corps, there are additional two mountain brigades and and AD Brigade.
> 
> For 16 Corps, 39 Division is not part of it. You can also minus the three IABs from 16 Corps. You can add additional infantry brigade directly under 16 Corps.
> 
> Another thing, for all Commands of IA, do not forget that there are command reserves as well.
> In case of NC, these are 39 Mountain Division and an additional AD Brigade.



My mistake about 39 Div., placing it under 16th Corps rather than direct under Northern Command. That is what it seemed like at the time. 

Where, according to you, should the three Independent Armoured Brigades go? Further south, to be attached to the next Corps, that was to engage in action in tank country?



Joe Shearer said:


> My mistake about 39 Div., placing it under 16th Corps rather than direct under Northern Command. That is what it seemed like at the time.
> 
> Where, according to you, should the three Independent Armoured Brigades go? Further south, to be attached to the next Corps, that was to engage in action in tank country?



If your corrections are correct (I have no doubt they are, I have no intention of interrogating them or my earlier informants), then, considering that all the counter-insurgency is conducted by the Rashtriya Rifles, and that these are not under the complement of any of the Corps, other than forming part of the Joint Committee along with the local police, the CAPF and politicians and administrators, each of the three Corps, including the China-facing one, has more reach and power than was thought of them.

More than mere border defence, unless it reflects a timorous attitude packing on layers and layers of formations against any disastrous breakthrough at any part of the border. This is a troubling vision.

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## PanzerKiel

Joe Shearer said:


> My mistake about 39 Div., placing it under 16th Corps rather than direct under Northern Command. That is what it seemed like at the time.
> 
> Where, according to you, should the three Independent Armoured Brigades go? Further south, to be attached to the next Corps, that was to engage in action in tank country?
> 
> 
> 
> If your corrections are correct (I have no doubt they are, I have no intention of interrogating them or my earlier informants), then, considering that all the counter-insurgency is conducted by the Rashtriya Rifles, and that these are not under the complement of any of the Corps, other than forming part of the Joint Committee along with the local police, the CAPF and politicians and administrators, each of the three Corps, including the China-facing one, has more reach and power than was thought of them.
> 
> More than mere border defence, unless it reflects a timorous attitude packing on layers and layers of formations against any disastrous breakthrough at any part of the border. This is a troubling vision.



IABs are further south. Of course in tankable country.

There are upwards of 200 battalions of RR organized into 5 Sectors for internal security. There capabilities are not less than our Mujahid units.

Yes, all these three Corps are potent enough.

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## Joe Shearer

PanzerKiel said:


> IABs are further south. Of course in tankable country.
> 
> There are upwards of 200 battalions of RR organized into 5 Sectors for internal security. There capabilities are not less than our Mujahid units.
> 
> Yes, all these three Corps are potent enough.



I have mentioned the RR extensively when doing a head-count for the 700,000 gang. But that was probably just before you returned to the forum.

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## Nilgiri

PanzerKiel said:


> Coming to NC...
> @Nilgiri
> 
> Do please add an additional mountain brigade directly under 14 Corps. Moreover, for 15 Corps, directly under Corps, there are additional two mountain brigades and and AD Brigade.
> 
> For 16 Corps, 39 Division is not part of it. You can also minus the three IABs from 16 Corps. You can add additional infantry brigade directly under 16 Corps.
> 
> Another thing, for all Commands of IA, do not forget that there are command reserves as well.
> In case of NC, these are 39 Mountain Division and an additional AD Brigade.



Thanks sir, I will create a "version 5" on the doc file with this info.

Later I will make a new map version with the final updates too.

Lets indeed go through IA side completely first for your input/updates on it.

Then you can give input on PA ORBAT side that I used (thus far)...which I believe was overall earlier combined effort of Joe, Signalian and Gryphon.

I will post that word doc later for your convenience.

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## PanzerKiel

For WC

For 9 Corps, do please add two independent armored brigades, an arty brigade, an AD brigade and an independent infantry brigade (that much) as Corps Reserves.

For 11 Corps, add one Corps AD Brigade.



Nilgiri said:


> Thanks sir, I will create a "version 5" on the doc file with this info.
> 
> Later I will make a new map version with the final updates too.
> 
> Lets indeed go through IA side completely first for your input/updates on it.
> 
> Then you can give input on PA ORBAT side that I used (thus far)...which I believe was overall earlier combined effort of Joe, Signalian and Gryphon.
> 
> I will post that word doc later for your convenience.



Would be fine. i'm intentionally not correcting the locations you have written in the ORBAT file. Some people here might feel perturbed, worried or insecure.

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## Signalian

This area south west of Badin, is it passable by tanks ?

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> This area south west of Badin, is it passable by tanks ?
> View attachment 627287



Nopes. Then, its its not only tanks, its the wheeled logistics as well.


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## Nilgiri

PanzerKiel said:


> Would be fine. i'm intentionally not correcting the locations you have written in the ORBAT file. Some people here might feel perturbed, worried or insecure.



Hehe, yep! Maybe not so much the case if India and Pakistan were same land size....but India got lot of "spare" "distant" "official" quartering...may or may not be the case in reality....and I'd expect PA knows quite well on the matter too.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes. Then, its its not only tanks, its the wheeled logistics as well.


Engineering solutions for making terrain passable ?


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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Engineering solutions for making terrain passable ?



There are, but then, engineering solutions take time and moreover, no one has that many assets to make it possible. If it were the case, IA would have poured in through the Nara.


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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> There are, but then, engineering solutions take time and moreover, no one has that many assets to make it possible. If it were the case, IA would have poured in through the Nara.


Cant be sure if this is on the drawing board in the planning rooms of Indian Military


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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Cant be sure if this is on the drawing board in the planning rooms of Indian Military



Its beyond their own capability as well. Even if they try, move of engineering assets(being big and easily identifiable) are good advance indicators of the other side planning to do something. In that case, airforce becomes in handy. But otherwise, its beyond their capability.

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## Joe Shearer

Nilgiri said:


> Hehe, yep! Maybe not so much the case if India and Pakistan were same land size....but India got lot of "spare" "distant" "official" quartering...may or may not be the case in reality....and I'd expect PA knows quite well on the matter too.



Please look at the next three or four posts (#281 to 284). Those are the most interesting. The evaluation is correct, and it has been made in more than one place.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> Its beyond their own capability as well. Even if they try, move of engineering assets(being big and easily identifiable) are good advance indicators of the other side planning to do something. In that case, airforce becomes in handy. But otherwise, its beyond their capability.



Passable by Amphibious vehs like M113 or BMP2? 
Hovercraft

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Passable by Amphibious vehs like M113 or BMP2?
> Hovercraft



Hovercraft yes, not the APCs.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Hovercraft yes, not the APCs.



There is a bridge and a road network not far from the immediate border. If the bridge can be taken before it is blown, it would be a major coup de grace. Let me illustrate the map.


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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> There is a bridge and a road network not far from the immediate border. If the bridge can be taken before it is blown, it would be a major coup de grace. Let me illustrate the map.



.... Map?

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> .... Map?


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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> There is a bridge and a road network not far from the immediate border. If the bridge can be taken before it is blown, it would be a major coup de grace. Let me illustrate the map.



In the present age of Sat imagery and ISR capabilities... Attacker will be compromised while moving from cantts and assembling for attack.... Defender will probably have ample time to either reinforce bridge defenses or blow out up.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> In the present age of Sat imagery and ISR capabilities... Attacker will be compromised while moving from cantts and assembling for attack.... Defender will probably have ample time to either reinforce bridge defenses or blow out up.



Use small units from diverse locations / vectors / methods. No major cantt movement of forces until initial ops are underway. Bit like Kargil except Pak never reinforced initial small numbers.

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## Signalian

We were starting to get somewhere but alas. Good effort by everyone involved


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