# Army wants to become part of CPEC administration



## Edevelop

ISLAMABAD: The military establishment has sought a formal role in the administration and execution of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) to accelerate work on $46 billion projects – a proposal which the federal government is reluctant to accept.

The army has shared with the federal government proposal of setting up a CPEC Authority, sources told _The Express Tribune_. The authority is proposed to be headed by a chairman, who is to be assisted by director generals, responsible for execution of the CPEC projects.

They said the move is aimed at getting a formal role in the execution of all the projects, which will be financed under the $46 billion package, offered by China. The CPEC is a network of roads and rail links which will link western China to the Arabian Sea through Pakistan’s Gwadar port. However, independent analysts see it as a move to venture into an area, which is predominantly under the civilian control. Currently, the security of the CPEC is already with the army and it has raised a strong force of about 15,000 personnel to protect the Chinese investment and its citizens.

After doing spadework, which continued for about one and a half year, Pakistan and China signed agreements for implementation of the $46 billion projects in April last year. However, progress on the projects has remained slow.

*The minister for planning, development and reform, Ahsan Iqbal, confirmed to The Express Tribune that he received an informal proposal to set up the CPEC Authority about six months back.*

*Iqbal, however, said he did not find the proposal feasible. In his views, the authority would add another layer of bureaucracy, which would slow down the pace of work instead of accelerating it. “Setting up an authority will mean involving three-dozen more people in decision-making process,” Iqbal said.*

*Currently, various ministries are responsible for implementation of the CPEC projects and the Planning Ministry coordinates with all of them. He said the CPEC Authority could undermine the role of Central Development Working Party (CDWP) and Executive Committee of National Economic Council (Ecnec) –the federal bodies responsible for approval of development schemes.*

The sources said there was also a proposal for making the CPEC a part of the National Action Plan, the country’s counter terror policy adopted in the wake of the December 2014 brutal attack on a school in Peshawar. This proposal was also not accepted at the highest level of the civilian setup.

Currently, the pace of work on the CPEC projects is slow but Iqbal said it was because of China. “Pakistan has done its part of work and is waiting for approvals from the Chinese side,” he added.

For example, the contractor could not be moved on Gwadar Eastbay Expressway project at the agreed dates due to change of executing agency by Chinese authorities. Similarly, the work on Multan-Sukkur motorway and Thakhot-Havelian road projects was also delayed.

“The Chinese expect that both civilian and military sides match their pace of work for quick implementation but probably the civilian government is short on expectations”, said the Centre for Research and Security Studies’ Executive Director Imtiaz Gul

He said if there was a military desire for having a formal role in the CPEC execution, it might well be motivated by Chinese desire for quick implementation. Reportedly, over a dozen projects in infrastructure, energy, water supply and health sectors are facing significant delays.

Early this week, army chief General Raheel Sharif said for sustainability of the CPEC, transparency and good management were extremely important. He was speaking at a seminar on the CPEC held in Gwadar, Balochistan. The army chief also said socio-economic justice resulting from the balanced development would increase people’s stakes in national unity and cohesion. The planning minister said there was full transparency in the CPEC deals. He said the $34 billion energy projects were largely in the private sector and the National Electric Power Regulatory Authority (Nepra) was determining tariffs through open hearings.

“The contracts of infrastructure projects are being awarded to one of the three companies nominated by China,” he said. “Political stability and social solidarity is a must to keep the momentum of economic growth and all institutions must remain aliened.”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1085784/for-timely-completion-army-seeks-role-in-cpec-administration/




It ain't happening, simply because economy and development is PML-N's strength and its the only thing left which the Civilians have total control over. Giving away CPEC and stuff would be step for the Army to spread its influence.

Furthermore, its no secret institutions like NLC and FWO would want greater share of projects. The improvement of Railways has already created a setback for their Logistics and rise in Domestic and Foreign Construction Companies and their competitiveness have undermined their business. Its obvious they are looking to be desperate and playing pressure tactics to make sure things don't get any worse for them.

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## xyxmt

Soney ki Chirya?

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## salarsikander

Hi, 
This sounds weird, but given the magnitude of the project and the expertise required. This is something beyond the capacity and imagination of current federal govt for that matter. Men-in-Uniform should take charge, but then what will happens once the generals get expired, will they leave the seat ?

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## Mrc

Its a great idea...

Will keep things moving at a fast pace


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## punit

ye baat hai ! achha hai !


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## Rizwan Alam

And we know why govt is reluctant.

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## Kompromat

CPEC should be monitored by the Army, there is no reason to trust a corrupt regime in Islamabad.

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## Edevelop

As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?

Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Horus said:


> CPEC should be monitored by the Army, there is no reason to trust a corrupt regime in Islamabad.



I m all for it but what if army guys also lured into corruption? What about check and balance on them as we have for politicians (not that effective but still). 

There are rumors that guys at DHA are involved in corruption too but no action has been taken against them? Bahria town?

I think everyone needs to keep an eye on each other.



cb4 said:


> As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?
> 
> Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?



Well, action has been taken against Kiyani brothers? hasn't it?

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## iioal malik

Army is being ridiculous as usual...No wonder true civilian government never trusted these guys...their services must not devide with money this is last and lowest on their knees they could go...

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## باپ

Which which and which scams you arer.referring to?


cb4 said:


> As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?
> 
> Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?





iioal malik said:


> Army is being ridiculous as usual...No wonder true civilian government never trusted these guys...their services must not devide with money this is last and lowest on their knees they could go...


Really?
Then why government has asked Army for security of CPEC ? Why not give the job to police if you want to keep it a 100% civilian matter?

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## salarsikander

باپ said:


> Army for security of CPEC


Securing and administering are both different things. 

I am all for army taking over the project but what of those people who would never step down after the execution of project and let their children take over after them, after all men in uniform are from same Pakistani mentality, we cant deny that. 

So why give them the reason to corrupt it in first place


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## باپ

salarsikander said:


> Securing and administering are both different things.
> 
> I am all for army taking over the project but what of those people who would never step down after the execution of project and let their children take over after them, after all men in uniform are from same Pakistani mentality, we cant deny that.
> 
> So why give them the reason to corrupt it in first place


As if politicians don't and won't do ft that?
Even if army does what you say,still it's better option, and no security and management cannot be separated. Mismanagement by politicians creates security issues and army bears the brunt.


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## salarsikander

باپ said:


> As if politicians don't and won't do ft that?
> Even if army does what you say,still it's better option, and no security and management cannot be separated. Mismanagement by politicians creates security issues and army bears the brunt.


Hi,

So tell me what are those guys qualified for ? Security or administration ?

Your argument bears no validity, since its saying like ''just because hes wrong I have the right to be wrong too.''


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## Dubious

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> This sounds weird, but given the magnitude of the project and the expertise required. This is something beyond the capacity and imagination of current federal govt for that matter. Men-in-Uniform should take charge, but then what will happens once the generals get expired, will they leave the seat ?


Well they would be called for security might as well get them involved right from start....It is no secret some of the route does run through troubled areas....and then there is always trouble....


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## Blabla

cb4 said:


> As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?
> 
> Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?


NAwaz and zardari these politicans will make it Kalabagh than better let the army work on it


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## Viper0011.

cb4 said:


> ISLAMABAD: The military establishment has sought a formal role in the administration and execution of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) to accelerate work on $46 billion projects – a proposal which the federal government is reluctant to accept..



The Army should be involved with the security of this project (or hundreds of projects called collaterally the CPEC). Why is it that under 60 years of Army rule, no such project was made. But now the civilians who made it, and have executed it, and are moving towards success with it, will need "Army's Supervision"???? That doesn't make sense. 

The dream, the hard work to bring investments, and to come up with the entire bigger picture of what's needed, where, when and how, was all work of civilians. This is one attempt to setup institutions inside Pakistan that will end up creating next generations of educated and loyal civilian politicians, who would see this entire thing as a baseline, against which they'll have to perform (and do better) in order for them to get votes.

I am not stating my opinion due to any hate for the Army or anything, those guys do the most difficult work of securing the entire country. I am voicing my opinion in terms of developing institutions so everyone outside of the 550K Army, can benefit from these institutions and Pakistan, as a country starts going towards a much more modern, peaceful and advanced future. If Army stays in the habit of taking over everything, what would the 200 Million people do? The same thing they've been doing for the past 70 years? Which is nothing? But if the Army wants to run the security and that side of Administration, obviously, the Civilians shouldn't have any issues with it as that's Army's role. 

At the end, everyone has to see Pakistan's best interest, not Army or Civlian's best interests. And those interests means, these growth projects have always been started, funded, guaranteed and executed by the Civlians. Otherwise, what's the purpose of having a Civlian system if the Army would continue to take over things when it pleases to? Just think from a modern Pakistan's stand point, not just individuals or people belonging to either side. If this goes to Army, what's next? Firing all the Dolphin Police squad in Lahore as "useless" and putting Army soldiers on those bikes?? The country belongs to 200 million people who want work, growth and success. Let them grow into a system and modernization through developing institutions please!!!! 

You guys will call everyone corrupt all day long, but won't let institutes get developed who would eventually REMOVE the corrupt that you speak against!!

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## Stephen Cohen

Viper0011. said:


> The Army should be involved with the security of this project (or hundreds of projects called collaterally the CPEC). Why is it that under 60 years of Army rule, no such project was made. But now the civilians who made it, and have executed it, and are moving towards success with it, will need "Army's Supervision"???? That doesn't make sense.
> 
> The dream, the hard work to bring investments, and to come up with the entire bigger picture of what's needed, where, when and how, was all work of civilians. This is one attempt to setup institutions inside Pakistan that will end up creating next generations of educated and loyal civilian politicians, who would see this entire thing as a baseline, against which they'll have to perform (and do better) in order for them to get votes.
> 
> I am not stating my opinion due to any hate for the Army or anything, those guys do the most difficult work of securing the entire country. I am voicing my opinion in terms of developing institutions so everyone outside of the 550K Army, can benefit from these institutions and Pakistan, as a country starts going towards a much more modern, peaceful and advanced future. If Army stays in the habit of taking over everything, what would the 200 Million people do? The same thing they've been doing for the past 70 years? Which is nothing? But if the Army wants to run the security and that side of Administration, obviously, the Civilians shouldn't have any issues with it as that's Army's role.
> 
> At the end, everyone has to see Pakistan's best interest, not Army or Civlian's best interests. And those interests means, these growth projects have always been started, funded, guaranteed and executed by the Civlians. Otherwise, what's the purpose of having a Civlian system if the Army would continue to take over things when it pleases to? Just think from a modern Pakistan's stand point, not just individuals or people belonging to either side. If this goes to Army, what's next? Firing all the Dolphin Police squad in Lahore as "useless" and putting Army soldiers on those bikes?? The country belongs to 200 million people who want work, growth and success. Let them grow into a system and modernization through developing institutions please!!!!
> 
> You guys will call everyone corrupt all day long, but won't let institutes get developed who would eventually REMOVE the corrupt that you speak against!!



Hello Sir Welcome Back


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## Khurram2349

The only way CPEC will be successful is if military takes it over. If it is left with politicians like Nawaz Sharef or Zardari whose names have not only appeared in Panama Leaks due to corruption, but whose links with agents of our enemies are also becoming evident , for example, by finding RAW agents being employed in sugar mills of Nawaz Sharif. How can one expect such traitors to look after our national interest and being given authority over such a strategic important project like CPEC ? 

I would like to go even further and insist on military to take over Pakistan for at least 30 years and make sure that by 2047 our then generation will have a country to feel proud for !!!!! 

If our country remains in the hands of traitors like Nawaz Zardari ALtaf and their next generation including Bilawal etc. there will be no Pakistan left by 2047 !!!!!!


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## Viper0011.

Blabla said:


> NAwaz and zardari these politicans will make it Kalabagh than better let the army work on it



And you don't think any general has done corruption and gotten commissions in the past 70 years??? At the end of the day, they are ALL Pakistanis and come from the same system, and have all the same similarities, with the exception of boots, vs. suits. 

Its time these institutions got developed and helped Pakistani public in advancing forward, creating future generations of leaders, who will try to beat this progress to get votes, and will have to produce. Pakistan as country has to move forward. Not Army or the Civilians!! Somehow many of you guys on here forget about the 200 million people of Pakistan and just root for one person or institution, who you have affiliations with. That's the wrong approach, any modern country is an integrated combination of all institutions. I know there is 70 years of frustration, but that frustration has a huge role from the Army too. So please, support the country going forward. Not one group of people, individuals or institutions.

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## S.U.R.B.

Here comes another mafia...
Business is good eh?


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## Viper0011.

Khurram2349 said:


> The only way CPEC will be successful is if military takes it over. If it is left with politicians like Nawaz Sharef or Zardari whose names have not only appeared in Panama Leaks due to corruption, but whose links with agents of our enemies are also becoming evident ,* for example, by finding RAW agents being employed in sugar mills of Nawaz Sharif. *How can one expect such traitors to look after our national interest and being given authority over such a strategic important project like CPEC ?!



You are accusing someone of anti-state activities, and treason. Do you have legal proofs of it? You have other politicians who ate their donations and offshored them to Indian owned investment companies and fooled the public. Why don't I see you talk about those? Why turn a blind eye from corruption when your own favorites do it, and justify it. But someone you don't like, his name on a bathroom means there is corruption in shit that people take in there  . You've got to come up with something more logical than fake propaganda. I'd like to see you talk about the "others" who you don't even mention in corruption. Let's see how "factual" you really are and how much LOVE you really have for your country. 

Why the scale is SO pushed towards NS and not others? I get it, pull his leg, so the entire CPEC credit can go to IK or elsewhere (now Army). And eff the country and its 200 million people because people like you don't care about the growth of your country? Only about the people you like? Being power hungry, doesn't help Pakistan. Also, leg pulling, fake drama and all, doesn't also help ONE single average poor Pakistani.


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## Dubious

S.U.R.B. said:


> Here comes another mafia...
> Business is good eh?


in the hands of wrong people it can become another money siphoning scandal or worse yet, allowing enterance to unaccounted people esp since CPEC would be running through troubled areas too ...as well as being a highway into Pakistan and all over Pakistan ...Excellent route for drugs, illegal weapons and all ill!


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## Viper0011.

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir Welcome Back



Welcome back to where.....?


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## Stephen Cohen

@Viper0011. 

You are a Strong Nawaz Sharif supporter but his position has become very weak after 
these Panama leaks 

These remaining Two years will be very difficult for him 

With Imran Khan and The Army ; together putting lot of pressure on him



Viper0011. said:


> Welcome back to where.....?



You had been banned ; Isnt it


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## Viper0011.

Akheilos said:


> in the hands of wrong people it can become another money siphoning scandal or worse yet, allowing enterance to unaccounted people esp since CPEC would be running through troubled areas too ...as well as being a highway into Pakistan and all over Pakistan ...Excellent route for drugs, illegal weapons and all ill!



  like Donations channelled and laundered by IK and invested into Indian owned offshore companies? Like the 300 Canals bought from the poor people to build a mansion for IK, and people weren't paid even half the price for their land  , or like what happened in the DHA where Gen. Kiyani had to return 6 billion? 

Who are the "RIGHT" people in your mind? The right people are not the ones trying to pull legs so they can put their name on the remainder the work and call it "ours" without ever producing a freaking Egg a day. Let alone CPEC. Cheap politicians like these are not the right people, they are cheaters, liars and thieves.

The only "RIGHT" people, are the one's who dreamed it, started it, begged the Chinese, created reforms, worked with the WB and others to create an infrastructure plan that is as modern as you find stuff in the Western world. While ALL this hard work was going on, "others" were doing sit-ins and all kinds of violence to stop this work that they are obviously unable to even think about, let alone do 10% of it!!!!

And ALL this time, people like you and your leaders, kept saying all this is a waste of money. Now your post surprises me, you actually know (per your post) this project is something very important, while your leaders and you, were calling the first metro bus system a "Grill Bus" system (which was a prototype system for the CPEC project to serve as Pakistan's baseline public transportation system). Do you people have a stance you tick to, a stated direction you ever take and stand by it, or an economic plan you've ever presented (let alone being able to execute it, check out KPK)   . 

And today you care about this project this much? Do you people ever fear God and not lie and be hypocrites?


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## Edevelop

Viper0011. said:


> The Army should be involved with the security of this project (or hundreds of projects called collaterally the CPEC). Why is it that under 60 years of Army rule, no such project was made. But now the civilians who made it, and have executed it, and are moving towards success with it, will need "Army's Supervision"???? That doesn't make sense.
> 
> The dream, the hard work to bring investments, and to come up with the entire bigger picture of what's needed, where, when and how, was all work of civilians. This is one attempt to setup institutions inside Pakistan that will end up creating next generations of educated and loyal civilian politicians, who would see this entire thing as a baseline, against which they'll have to perform (and do better) in order for them to get votes.
> 
> I am not stating my opinion due to any hate for the Army or anything, those guys do the most difficult work of securing the entire country. I am voicing my opinion in terms of developing institutions so everyone outside of the 550K Army, can benefit from these institutions and Pakistan, as a country starts going towards a much more modern, peaceful and advanced future. If Army stays in the habit of taking over everything, what would the 200 Million people do? The same thing they've been doing for the past 70 years? Which is nothing? But if the Army wants to run the security and that side of Administration, obviously, the Civilians shouldn't have any issues with it as that's Army's role.
> 
> At the end, everyone has to see Pakistan's best interest, not Army or Civlian's best interests. And those interests means, these growth projects have always been started, funded, guaranteed and executed by the Civlians. Otherwise, what's the purpose of having a Civlian system if the Army would continue to take over things when it pleases to? Just think from a modern Pakistan's stand point, not just individuals or people belonging to either side. If this goes to Army, what's next? Firing all the Dolphin Police squad in Lahore as "useless" and putting Army soldiers on those bikes?? The country belongs to 200 million people who want work, growth and success. Let them grow into a system and modernization through developing institutions please!!!!
> 
> You guys will call everyone corrupt all day long, but won't let institutes get developed who would eventually REMOVE the corrupt that you speak against!!



In 70 years, Army lost territories like East Pakistan and Kashmir while Civilians bought a territory called Gwadar from Oman and initiated friendship with China. There is a lesson to be learned here when we speak about the importance and success of Civilian governments.



Blabla said:


> NAwaz and zardari these politicans will make it Kalabagh than better let the army work on it



The PML-N government itself launched it. Its in their interest it materializes so they can get re-elected. It will be made another Kalabagh Dam from those who are in opposition like PTI because they know how much it can impact their politics.

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## Viper0011.

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Viper0011.
> 
> You are a Strong Nawaz Sharif supporter but his position has become very weak after
> these Panama leaks



  WRONG!!!!!! I am a Progress Supporter. I would be saying the SAME thing if IK was doing all this work and transforming Pakistan. I am a Pro-Progress, NS is just the person in the seat who is making this happen. People have to start thinking out of their little personal box. Majority of the people here, have no freaking clue about global engagements and a second opinion or a third party view. I am providing that third party view and that is, PROGRESS must continue and Pakistan (finally on a growth path), MUST grow and become an advance country with a real civilian system like any other modern country. 

On Panama leaks, everyone knows why the Panama leaks were "leaked". Here's Mr. Gates surprised on Panama leaks as of yesterday, hear him yourself:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/14/bill-gates-surprised-whos-is-not-in-panama-papers.html

This interview from Bill G, explains everything to people in power / money and other positions and to educated ordinary people a lot about the Panama leaks. But you have people on here, who have no background in any of these business, strategy and other things. All they do is bit*ch like little children. And I can't change that. I just write the truth and its for Pakistan's growth. Not towards a personality.




> You had been banned ; Isnt it



You "think" I was banned. And so does the person who pressed the button does too. I was here, and was responding. I may be standing behind you, turn around and don't be scared!! BOOO . I ama Ghost!!

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## Stephen Cohen

Viper0011. said:


> You "think" I was banned. And so does the person who pressed the button does too. I was here, and was responding. I may be standing behind you, turn around and don't be scared!! BOOO . I ama Ghost!!



So you have just declared that you have a SECOND ID 

what was the need to declare ; it could have remained a secret


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## Viper0011.

Stephen Cohen said:


> So you have just declared that you have a SECOND ID
> 
> what was the need to declare ; it could have remained a secret



I have ten ID's, 15 passports, 25 mustaches and 19 hair wigs, and only ONE suite. They call me Jason Bourne from that movie the Bourne Identity, and James Bond in the UK.....   . I have a Toyota Camry that looks like an Aston Martin and can submerge like a Submarine and Fly like a spaceship . And then I woke up and the dream was over 

I don't like secrecy, I like to share with people so everyone can benefit from good ideas


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## PWFI

cb4 said:


> *Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army* ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?


Who told you that? wait few days you will be surprised


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## Viper0011.

PWFI said:


> Who told you that? wait few days you will be surprised



Gen. Sharif is working on establishing strict rules for military accountability. I don't know if those will hold true after he'll leave. Wish Pakistan has a few more generals after him, who are like him so this ship called Pakistan, can head in a good direction. Together with civil and military accountability, you'd solve a huge issue of accountability all across!! Fair play or everyone

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## Zaneesh852

Horus said:


> CPEC should be monitored by the Army, there is no reason to trust a corrupt regime in Islamabad.


And who would ensure that Army is properly overseen?



PWFI said:


> Who told you that? wait few days you will be surprised


yeah we have been hearing this for how much a decade. Heck they can't even take the name of Musharraf in Panama leaks and you're talking about serving ones


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zaneesh852 said:


> And who would ensure that Army is properly overseen?
> 
> 
> yeah we have been hearing this for how much a decade. Heck they can't even take the name of Musharraf in Panama leaks and you're talking about serving ones



Because Musharafs name isn't on the Panama list.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/201...ticians-businessmen-who-own-companies-abroad/



cb4 said:


> ISLAMABAD: The military establishment has sought a formal role in the administration and execution of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) to accelerate work on $46 billion projects – a proposal which the federal government is reluctant to accept.
> 
> The army has shared with the federal government proposal of setting up a CPEC Authority, sources told _The Express Tribune_. The authority is proposed to be headed by a chairman, who is to be assisted by director generals, responsible for execution of the CPEC projects.
> 
> They said the move is aimed at getting a formal role in the execution of all the projects, which will be financed under the $46 billion package, offered by China. The CPEC is a network of roads and rail links which will link western China to the Arabian Sea through Pakistan’s Gwadar port. However, independent analysts see it as a move to venture into an area, which is predominantly under the civilian control. Currently, the security of the CPEC is already with the army and it has raised a strong force of about 15,000 personnel to protect the Chinese investment and its citizens.
> 
> After doing spadework, which continued for about one and a half year, Pakistan and China signed agreements for implementation of the $46 billion projects in April last year. However, progress on the projects has remained slow.
> 
> *The minister for planning, development and reform, Ahsan Iqbal, confirmed to The Express Tribune that he received an informal proposal to set up the CPEC Authority about six months back.*
> 
> *Iqbal, however, said he did not find the proposal feasible. In his views, the authority would add another layer of bureaucracy, which would slow down the pace of work instead of accelerating it. “Setting up an authority will mean involving three-dozen more people in decision-making process,” Iqbal said.*
> 
> *Currently, various ministries are responsible for implementation of the CPEC projects and the Planning Ministry coordinates with all of them. He said the CPEC Authority could undermine the role of Central Development Working Party (CDWP) and Executive Committee of National Economic Council (Ecnec) –the federal bodies responsible for approval of development schemes.*
> 
> The sources said there was also a proposal for making the CPEC a part of the National Action Plan, the country’s counter terror policy adopted in the wake of the December 2014 brutal attack on a school in Peshawar. This proposal was also not accepted at the highest level of the civilian setup.
> 
> Currently, the pace of work on the CPEC projects is slow but Iqbal said it was because of China. “Pakistan has done its part of work and is waiting for approvals from the Chinese side,” he added.
> 
> For example, the contractor could not be moved on Gwadar Eastbay Expressway project at the agreed dates due to change of executing agency by Chinese authorities. Similarly, the work on Multan-Sukkur motorway and Thakhot-Havelian road projects was also delayed.
> 
> “The Chinese expect that both civilian and military sides match their pace of work for quick implementation but probably the civilian government is short on expectations”, said the Centre for Research and Security Studies’ Executive Director Imtiaz Gul
> 
> He said if there was a military desire for having a formal role in the CPEC execution, it might well be motivated by Chinese desire for quick implementation. Reportedly, over a dozen projects in infrastructure, energy, water supply and health sectors are facing significant delays.
> 
> Early this week, army chief General Raheel Sharif said for sustainability of the CPEC, transparency and good management were extremely important. He was speaking at a seminar on the CPEC held in Gwadar, Balochistan. The army chief also said socio-economic justice resulting from the balanced development would increase people’s stakes in national unity and cohesion. The planning minister said there was full transparency in the CPEC deals. He said the $34 billion energy projects were largely in the private sector and the National Electric Power Regulatory Authority (Nepra) was determining tariffs through open hearings.
> 
> “The contracts of infrastructure projects are being awarded to one of the three companies nominated by China,” he said. “Political stability and social solidarity is a must to keep the momentum of economic growth and all institutions must remain aliened.”
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1085784/for-timely-completion-army-seeks-role-in-cpec-administration/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It ain't happening, simply because economy and development is PML-N's strength and its the only thing left which the Civilians have total control over. Giving away CPEC and stuff would be step for the Army to spread its influence.
> 
> Furthermore, its no secret institutions like NLC and FWO would want greater share of projects. The improvement of Railways has already created a setback for their Logistics and rise in Domestic and Foreign Construction Companies and their competitiveness have undermined their business. Its obvious they are looking to be desperate and playing pressure tactics to make sure things don't get any worse for them.



The amount of corruption PML N does through the development programs dwarfs the Fukups of PPP.. 

PML n = corrupt businessmen who hide corruption really well

PPP = corrupt land owners who can't hide their corruption.

Check out the New Islamabad Airport progress .. The cost has ballooned from 400 $ to over 1.2+ billion dollars .... Small pot hole filled roads that connect nearby villages (that were built decades ago) are being claimed by Maryum Nawazs "samdhis" as their own.. The massive corruption going on there is an example of PMLN "development"... Even PVC pipes and marbles are being imported from China or their "chosen" companies ..

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## Zarvan

cb4 said:


> ISLAMABAD: The military establishment has sought a formal role in the administration and execution of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) to accelerate work on $46 billion projects – a proposal which the federal government is reluctant to accept.
> 
> The army has shared with the federal government proposal of setting up a CPEC Authority, sources told _The Express Tribune_. The authority is proposed to be headed by a chairman, who is to be assisted by director generals, responsible for execution of the CPEC projects.
> 
> They said the move is aimed at getting a formal role in the execution of all the projects, which will be financed under the $46 billion package, offered by China. The CPEC is a network of roads and rail links which will link western China to the Arabian Sea through Pakistan’s Gwadar port. However, independent analysts see it as a move to venture into an area, which is predominantly under the civilian control. Currently, the security of the CPEC is already with the army and it has raised a strong force of about 15,000 personnel to protect the Chinese investment and its citizens.
> 
> After doing spadework, which continued for about one and a half year, Pakistan and China signed agreements for implementation of the $46 billion projects in April last year. However, progress on the projects has remained slow.
> 
> *The minister for planning, development and reform, Ahsan Iqbal, confirmed to The Express Tribune that he received an informal proposal to set up the CPEC Authority about six months back.*
> 
> *Iqbal, however, said he did not find the proposal feasible. In his views, the authority would add another layer of bureaucracy, which would slow down the pace of work instead of accelerating it. “Setting up an authority will mean involving three-dozen more people in decision-making process,” Iqbal said.*
> 
> *Currently, various ministries are responsible for implementation of the CPEC projects and the Planning Ministry coordinates with all of them. He said the CPEC Authority could undermine the role of Central Development Working Party (CDWP) and Executive Committee of National Economic Council (Ecnec) –the federal bodies responsible for approval of development schemes.*
> 
> The sources said there was also a proposal for making the CPEC a part of the National Action Plan, the country’s counter terror policy adopted in the wake of the December 2014 brutal attack on a school in Peshawar. This proposal was also not accepted at the highest level of the civilian setup.
> 
> Currently, the pace of work on the CPEC projects is slow but Iqbal said it was because of China. “Pakistan has done its part of work and is waiting for approvals from the Chinese side,” he added.
> 
> For example, the contractor could not be moved on Gwadar Eastbay Expressway project at the agreed dates due to change of executing agency by Chinese authorities. Similarly, the work on Multan-Sukkur motorway and Thakhot-Havelian road projects was also delayed.
> 
> “The Chinese expect that both civilian and military sides match their pace of work for quick implementation but probably the civilian government is short on expectations”, said the Centre for Research and Security Studies’ Executive Director Imtiaz Gul
> 
> He said if there was a military desire for having a formal role in the CPEC execution, it might well be motivated by Chinese desire for quick implementation. Reportedly, over a dozen projects in infrastructure, energy, water supply and health sectors are facing significant delays.
> 
> Early this week, army chief General Raheel Sharif said for sustainability of the CPEC, transparency and good management were extremely important. He was speaking at a seminar on the CPEC held in Gwadar, Balochistan. The army chief also said socio-economic justice resulting from the balanced development would increase people’s stakes in national unity and cohesion. The planning minister said there was full transparency in the CPEC deals. He said the $34 billion energy projects were largely in the private sector and the National Electric Power Regulatory Authority (Nepra) was determining tariffs through open hearings.
> 
> “The contracts of infrastructure projects are being awarded to one of the three companies nominated by China,” he said. “Political stability and social solidarity is a must to keep the momentum of economic growth and all institutions must remain aliened.”
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1085784/for-timely-completion-army-seeks-role-in-cpec-administration/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It ain't happening, simply because economy and development is PML-N's strength and its the only thing left which the Civilians have total control over. Giving away CPEC and stuff would be step for the Army to spread its influence.
> 
> Furthermore, its no secret institutions like NLC and FWO would want greater share of projects. The improvement of Railways has already created a setback for their Logistics and rise in Domestic and Foreign Construction Companies and their competitiveness have undermined their business. Its obvious they are looking to be desperate and playing pressure tactics to make sure things don't get any worse for them.


@cb4 If Army has decided than they will be part of it. No matter what !!!! This always in trouble and massively corrupt Government can do nothing to stop it.



iioal malik said:


> Army is being ridiculous as usual...No wonder true civilian government never trusted these guys...their services must not devide with money this is last and lowest on their knees they could go...


True civilian and most corrupt Government. Please complete the sentance . As for Army they are doing write thing other wise this mafia family and party PML N will destroy everything


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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> This sounds weird, but given the magnitude of the project and the expertise required. This is something beyond the capacity and imagination of current federal govt for that matter. Men-in-Uniform should take charge, but then what will happens once the generals get expired, will they leave the seat ?


It shouldn't be the role of any military in the world handle the civil administration of a country, if your government isn't given the chance to rise to the occasion, to build their own capacity and gain their own expertise how will they learn? Of course, it is in the PA's best interests to keep the civlian government weak and ineffective and to be seen as the great saviours but the people of Pakistan should demand more.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> It shouldn't be the role of any military in the world handle the civil administration of a country, if your government isn't given the chance to rise to the occasion, to build their own capacity and gain their own expertise how will they learn? Of course, it is in the PA's best interests to keep the civlian government weak and ineffective and to be seen as the great saviours but the people of Pakistan should demand more.



Should you keep your beak shut in our domestic matters? Nobody needs your nonsensical rants .. We understand our country better than some British Indian teenager known for his biased rants ..

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## Edevelop

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Because Musharafs name isn't on the Panama list.
> 
> http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/201...ticians-businessmen-who-own-companies-abroad/
> 
> 
> The amount of corruption PML N does through the development programs dwarfs the Fukups of PPP..
> 
> PML n = corrupt businessmen who hide corruption really well
> 
> PPP = corrupt land owners who can't hide their corruption.
> 
> Check out the New Islamabad Airport progress .. The cost has ballooned from 400 $ to over 1.2+ billion dollars .... Small pot hole filled roads that connect nearby villages (that were built decades ago) are being claimed by Maryum Nawazs "samdhis" as their own.. The massive corruption going on there is an example of PMLN "development"... Even PVC pipes and marbles are being imported from China or their "chosen" companies ..



Musharraf's name is on many other lists. Kindly explain how a General with less than Rs 50,000 pension can become a Billionaire overnight and own properties in London, Dubai, New York and San Francisco and god knows where else.

The New Islamabad Airport is a project which was proposed in the 80s during Zia's era. Since then it has been an example of corruption from all kinds of governments, civil and military. Maybe you should explain why the military has a habit of making residential schemes around airports. It was certainly the case in the 90s and early 2000s in Lahore where we saw Askaris being built. Its not like this behaviour has stopped. We are seeing a repeat, this time in Islamabad.

Who could be more corrupt than Malik Riaz ? The guy picked up cement sacks in Karachi and came out a middle man for Generals. Corruption is in our people's genes but when we speak about governance, lets not forget it was the military that had ruled for over 60 years. Maybe some questions need to be asked. How the hell do they get land so cheap and how DHA was able to fetch over $ 2 Billion in the name martyrs. Lets not go there. People know how NLC destroyed Railways along with ANP's Bilour to run auto business and logistics. Its exactly the same way way Americans under Regan and GM did to buy off Light Rail companies only to close them down. Now things have been making revival under Saad Rafique, expect no mercy and backing down.


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## notorious_eagle

Blabla said:


> NAwaz and zardari these politicans will make it Kalabagh than better let the army work on it



Unfortunately it looks like it. 

First project for CPEC worth $1.9 billion, guess who PML-N awards to, Saif ur Rehman. The deal making corrupt pimp and the front man for PML-N's mega project corruption. I think this is why Raheel Sharif issued the recent statement.

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## The Eagle

More than the informal requests etc, there will be accountability sooner or later but will be fruitful for Pakistan hence Gen. Raheel Sharif statement about accountability across the board.


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## Ind4Ever

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> This sounds weird, but given the magnitude of the project and the expertise required. This is something beyond the capacity and imagination of current federal govt for that matter. Men-in-Uniform should take charge, but then what will happens once the generals get expired, will they leave the seat ?


I don't think that the government of Pakistan which owns Pakistan and all other assets of Pakistan is incapable to manage CPEC? And who is army to claim or do business.Which obviously belongs to People of Pakistan . Govt of Pakistan means By the people for the people. ?


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## salarsikander

Akheilos said:


> Well they would be called for security might as well get them involved right from start....It is no secret some of the route does run through troubled areas....and then there is always trouble....


Hi,


Abingdonboy said:


> It shouldn't be the role of any military in the world handle the civil administration of a country, if your government isn't given the chance to rise to the occasion, to build their own capacity and gain their own expertise how will they learn? Of course, it is in the PA's best interests to keep the civlian government weak and ineffective and to be seen as the great saviours but the people of Pakistan should demand more.


Hi, 

Total Bullshit ! this is what i expected from a person across the border. Opps i forgot youre british and not even Indian National. Secondly the only thing that is keep us together is Army. We Pakistanis look at these Men with great respect, You will never find our society or Women saying that we Pak army come and rape us (woman protesting naked).

If the civil govt is corrupt and inept then someone has to do the job ! our dynamics doesnt allow us to become complacent, otherwise will just end up like a vassal state which was broken from us in 71'.

You believe in giving chances to the bastards?? the very same bastards who are out of country, because they are leaking some deep shit after panama scandal ? I would rather have men in uniform anyday and twice on Holi to not only protect us but to demonstrate others that we can take strict action against any stupid misadventure



cb4 said:


> a Billionaire overnight and own properties in London, Dubai, New York and San Francisco and god knows where else.


Kindly provided the source of bullshit claim.

In case you dint know General also gives lectures at several renowned institutions of the world, Just go and check how much he earns from them

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## PWFI

Zaneesh852 said:


> yeah we have been hearing this for how much a decade. Heck they can't even take the name of Musharraf in Panama leaks and you're talking about serving ones


First, is there Musharraf name in Panama Leak? I don't need to prove you anything, lots of things are happenning behind the doors as of now, so politicians won't cry their mama when they will be punished---A hint, yestarday RS annoucement

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## salarsikander

Ind4Ever said:


> I don't think that the government of Pakistan which owns Pakistan and all other assets of Pakistan is incapable to manage CPEC? And who is army to claim or do business.Which obviously belongs to People of Pakistan . Govt of Pakistan means By the people for the people. ?


Incapable??? what do you know of govt of Pakistan ?
when an entire civil admin is out of country, how do you expect the bastard to run the country ?
They are not incapable of running the CPEC, it is beyond their imagination ! 
And we people of Pkaistan dont need your opinion, we have already given our preference



Viper0011. said:


> If Army stays in the habit of taking over everything, what would the 200 Million people do


And the bullshit opnion of a confused desi will matter here, huh?
The guys who has not even spenta month in pakistan alone can dictate us what is right and wrong.

The whole cunning leadership is out of country because their pajamma leaked

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kamban2017 said:


> Moderator this guy abusing fellow poster



Even mods know the chap.. Cry me a river.



cb4 said:


> Musharraf's name is on many other lists. Kindly explain how a General with less than Rs 50,000 pension can become a Billionaire overnight and own properties in London, Dubai, New York and San Francisco and god knows where else.




A generals pension is much more than 50,000 .. A president actually gets 2 pensions .. Apart from that his parents were also well off and he does earn money by giving lectures in Foriegn universities.. There is no corruption case against him .. And if there is what's Nawazs govt doing about that? Oh wait .. The fuk will they do when their 15 year old bubblo son buys multimillion dollar properties in Mayfair ? Hahaha .. What the fuk are they gonna do when they are exposed by international sources? What is nawaz going to do when every lalu panju in Nawazs family is sitting in the govt? When they bury model town massacre investigation reported ? When they own steel mills in KSA ? And so on ?? 


> The New Islamabad Airport is a project which was proposed in the 80s during Zia's era. Since then it has been an example of corruption from all kinds of governments, civil and military.



And work started in ? During PPPs tenure ! And is still going on despite screwing the competition date of 2016.. Oh wait .. I get your logic .. If PPP does corruption how can Noora league obstain?



> Maybe you should explain why the military has a habit of making residential schemes around airports. It was certainly the case in the 90s and early 2000s in Lahore where we saw Askaris being built. Its not like this behaviour has stopped. We are seeing a repeat, this time in Islamabad.



Whose stopping them or any institution for starting residential schemes on army owned lands for retired troops on "No profit no Loss basis" ? They pay taxes for that .. Definitely not a few hundred rupees like Noora league!


> Who could be more corrupt than Malik Riaz






n league which is not taking any action against him? Oh wait that's surely not the corrupt govts responsibility .. Why? Coz it's in bed with him too..


> guy picked up cement sacks in Karachi and came out a middle man for General



Actually he was a contractor for MES .. Which is a civilian department .. 


> . Corruption is in our people's genes but when we speak about governance, lets not forget it was the military that had ruled for over 60 years.



Ironic you forgot how old Pakistan is .. !

Ironic that you are questioning the military's governance when this country ironically has always prospered during their regimes ..

Ironically .. Nawaz himself used to cal Gen Zia his spiritual "Father".. 



> Maybe some questions need to be asked. How the hell do they get land so cheap and how DHA was able to fetch over $ 2 Billion in the name martyrs.



2 billion? Source please? Also DHA builds on lands far away from cities .. Land worth nothing in the open market .. Develops it on heard earned money .. Invested by Pak officers who pay the money through Funds/instalments .. DHA also pays money,revenue to the govt! 
Unlike Noora league that's all about "making $$$$".



> Lets not go there. People know how NLC destroyed Railways along with ANP's Bilour to run auto business and logistics.




What? How did NLC destroy PR? That honour is granted to Bilour who runs transportation empire not NLC .. Which itself was in losses .. And where 2 retired generals were court-martialled -- thats accountability!

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## somebozo

After successful introduction of DHA now introducing Defense Economic Corridor.


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## SBD-3

Mera Khayal hay Mulk wapis plate ma rakh ky army ko wapis kardena chaheyay,"Maibaap hum se galti hogye".



kamban2017 said:


> Moderator this guy abusing fellow poster


Moderation team has deliberately bred some trolls here. So always rest your argument whenever you run into one.

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## Edevelop

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> In case you dint know General also gives lectures at several renowned institutions of the world, Just go and check how much he earns from them





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even mods know the chap.. Cry me a river.
> 
> 
> A generals pension is much more than 50,000 .. A president actually gets 2 pensions .. Apart from that his parents were also well off and he does earn money by giving lectures in Foriegn universities.. There is no corruption case against him .. And if there is what's Nawazs govt doing about that? Oh wait .. The fuk will they do when their 15 year old bubblo son buys multimillion dollar properties in Mayfair ? Hahaha .. What the fuk are they gonna do when they are exposed by international sources? What is nawaz going to do when every lalu panju in Nawazs family is sitting in the govt? When they bury model town massacre investigation reported ? When they own steel mills in KSA ? And so on ??
> 
> And work started in ? During PPPs tenure ! And is still going on despite screwing the competition date of 2016.. Oh wait .. I get your logic .. If PPP does corruption how can Noora league obstain?
> 
> Whose stopping them or any institution for starting residential schemes on army owned lands for retired troops on "No profit no Loss basis" ? They pay taxes for that .. Definitely not a few hundred rupees like Noora league!
> 
> n league which is not taking any action against him? Oh wait that's surely not the corrupt govts responsibility .. Why? Coz it's in bed with him too..
> 
> Actually he was a contractor for MES .. Which is a civilian department ..
> 
> Ironic you forgot how old Pakistan is .. !
> 
> Ironic that you are questioning the military's governance when this country ironically has always prospered during their regimes ..
> 
> Ironically .. Nawaz himself used to cal Gen Zia his spiritual "Father"..
> 
> 2 billion? Source please? Also DHA builds on lands far away from cities .. Land worth nothing in the open market .. Develops it on heard earned money .. Invested by Pak officers who pay the money through Funds/instalments .. DHA also pays money,revenue to the govt!
> Unlike Noora league that's all about "making $$$$".
> 
> What? How did NLC destroy PR? That honour is granted to Bilour who runs transportation empire not NLC .. Which itself was in losses .. And where 2 retired generals were court-martialled -- thats accountability!




Do you know how long Clintons have been in politics ??? Thats right... more than 20 fucking years and the whole world knows they get money from corporations and do public speaking at major institutions'. Still in their entire career their combined net worth is no more than 1/5th of a Billion dollars. But Musharraf, lol a 3rd class individual somehow is able to earn more than them...

Comparing Nawaz with Generals is a joke. Nawaz owned a Mercedes when he was studying in College and his father worked hard to get them there. Musharraf on the other hand was a chawal like all people who join Army and a poor soldier who refused to go to war against India and decided to go into hiding in Karachi. The guy is responsible for looting and letting others loot and making terrorists like MQM terrorists strong.

Yes we know how competent these Generals were. They were smarter than bloody civilians like Zulfqar Ali Bhutto who was educated from Oxford and Harvard, smarter than Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a revolutionary Poet, smarter than Abdus Salaam, a Nobel Prize recipient and founder of SUPARCO, Abdul Qadeer Khan and Munir Ahmed, leading scientists in Nuclear Program, Mehboob ul Haq, the inventor of Human Development Index and father of South Korea's economy. Pity all these people were either suppressed by Army or had their contributions discredited and robbed.

lol DHA is for the elite by the elite. In 60+ years of military rule thats what they had been doing. Create a state within a state and benefit those who are in your family. They should be ashamed, taking over Rawalpindi and subjecting sons of the soil to live in densely populated areas where there is no water and electricity, taking over lands in GB and AJK where an average Pakistani is not allowed due to disputed territory clauses


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## SBD-3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even mods know the chap.. Cry me a river.
> 
> 
> 2 billion? Source please? Also DHA builds on lands far away from cities .. Land worth nothing in the open market .. Develops it on heard earned money .. Invested by Pak officers who pay the money through Funds/instalments .. DHA also pays money,revenue to the govt!
> Unlike Noora league that's all about "making $$$$".


http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/110685-How-does-Musharraf-own-over-Rs2-billion-deposits
bechara subha shaam lectures de de kar dil ka mareez ban gya 
But Khan sahib aur paakbaz anchors ko pata hy isky baray ma baat ki to danda G**** se ghusay ga aur Munh se niklay ga.


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## salarsikander

cb4 said:


> Do you know how long Clintons have been in politics ??? Thats right... more than 20 fucking years and the whole world knows they get money from corporations and do public speaking at major institutions'. Still in their entire career their combined net worth is no more than 1/5th of a Billion dollars. But Musharraf, lol somehow, he is able to earn more than them...
> 
> Comparing Nawaz with Generals is a joke. Nawaz owned a Mercedes when he was studying in College and his father worked hard to get them there. Musharraf on the other hand was a chawal like all people who join Army and a poor soldier who refused to go to war against India and decided to go into hiding in Karachi. The guy is responsible for looting and letting others loot and making terrorists like MQM terrorists strong.
> 
> Yes we know how competent these Generals were. They were smarter than bloody civilians like Zulfqar Ali Bhutto who was educated from Oxford and Harvard, smarter than Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a revolutionary Poet, smarter than Abdus Salaam, a Nobel Prize recipient and founder of SUPARCO, Abdul Qadeer Khan and Munir Ahmed, leading scientists in Nuclear Program, Mehboob ul Haq, the inventor of Human Development Index and father of South Korea's economy. Pity all these people were either suppressed by Army or had their contributions discredited and robbed.
> 
> lol DHA is for the elite by the elite. In 60+ years of military rule thats what they had been doing. Create a state within a state and benefit those who are in your family. They should be ashamed, taking over Rawalpindi and subjecting sons of the soil to live in densely populated areas where there is no water and electricity, taking over lands in GB and AJK where an average Pakistani is not allowed due to disputed territory clause.


As I said show me any real hard evidence which says musharraf net worth is way more than clinton, do not present your illogical and emotional speech here.

What Ganja did out there we all know very much


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## SBD-3

CPEC is Nawaz's ace in the hole. And army like politicians doesn't like to lose political space. It's only a miracle that Nawaz has been able to survive so far. Otherwise hawaldars along with Khan and Co are relentlessly aiming for his hole for last couple of years.


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## Blabla

cb4 said:


> In 70 years, Army lost territories like East Pakistan and Kashmir while Civilians bought a territory called Gwadar from Oman and initiated friendship with China. There is a lesson to be learned here when we speak about the importance and success of Civilian governments.
> 
> 
> 
> The PML-N government itself launched it. Its in their interest it materializes so they can get re-elected. It will be made another Kalabagh Dam from those who are in opposition like PTI because they know how much it can impact their politics.


Zulfiqar Ali bhutto divided pakistan he was a civilian


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## VCheng

And Jinnah divided India, and he was a civilian too. Political processes create and destroy new entities all the time.


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## iioal malik

True civilian and most corrupt Government. Please complete the sentance . As for Army they are doing write thing other wise this mafia family and party PML N will destroy everything[/QUOTE]

Army should not even think of doing anything close to this...army reputation was down until General Raheel came on the scene .also it won't take long for it to go down again....army didn't bring this 45 billion plus investment never did and never will...so shut up and don't let this get into you head...
civil war in Pakistan and army responsible for it last few things left for army before pakistanis head on GHQ mission ...


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## Blabla

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> And Jinnah divided India, and he was a civilian too. Political processes create and destroy new entities all the time.


Jinnah did the right thing Muslims of subcontinent got there home land Muslims and hindus are two different nation


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## SBD-3

Blabla said:


> Zulfiqar Ali bhutto divided pakistan he was a civilian


Ever knew anything about Tikka khan?
http://news.sky.com/story/86859/pakistans-butcher-of-bengal-dies
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/mar/30/local/me-passings30.1
http://tribune.com.pk/story/405014/genetic-engineering-in-east-pakistan/
Probably you should try reading what actually happened in Bangladesh rather than what's being told here. India didn't succeed in achieving something out of thin air, which she failed in 1965.


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## Blabla

iioal malik said:


> Army lives on Pakistanis tax money they should obay the order of civil governments...this terrorism cursed
> 
> 
> Army should not even think of doing anything close to this...army reputation was down until General Raheel came on the scene .also it won't take long for it to go down again....army didn't bring this 45 billion plus investment never did and never will...so shut up and don't let this get into you head...
> civil war in Pakistan and army responsible for it last few things left for army before pakistanis head on GHQ mission ...



Nawaz sharif and these Politicans are scum of Pakistan there are some general like Musharraf and Kyani . Nawaz cannot bring this own money from the panama Island how can he bring a investment of 46 billion dollar ? . In last 20 years of his governance he did nothing tell me one police station , school college hospital , venue office which has gone better ? Army on the other hand sacrificed a lot in the war in terror and economy always gets better in Pakistan when there is dictator ship



SBD-3 said:


> Ever knew anything about Tikka khan?
> http://news.sky.com/story/86859/pakistans-butcher-of-bengal-dies
> http://articles.latimes.com/2002/mar/30/local/me-passings30.1
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/405014/genetic-engineering-in-east-pakistan/
> Probably you should try reading what actually happened in Bangladesh rather than what's being told here.


Stop telling me stories now Modi has already accepted it was India and there 1.5 million people who conspired against Pakistan to make Bangladesh


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## Edevelop

SBD-3 said:


> CPEC is Nawaz's ace in the hole. And army like politicians doesn't like to lose political space. It's only a miracle that Nawaz has been able to survive so far. Otherwise hawaldars along with Khan and Co are fully after his hole for last couple of years.



Its really no surprise. The Army and politicians in oppositions have always tried to discredit his work or tried to takeover. There is no limit to this. The Makraan Coast Highway and M-2 Motorway was under construction in the 90s until Musharraf came and laballed it as his. CPEC again is Nawaz's pet project which has been negotiated with Chinese. Since they can't takeover now, they'll try to use security perimeters and opposition's hue and cry to spread influence.



Blabla said:


> Zulfiqar Ali bhutto divided pakistan he was a civilian



Was Bhutto responsible for 90,000 POWs? What in hell was Yahya doing ? What was Ayub doing when China told him during their 1962 war with India to take Kashmir ? Zia obviously was a radical islamist, and Musharraf, he along with 4 other Generals planned Kargil to oust Sharif and disrupt a deal in which Vajpaye had agreed to solve Kashmir.

Civilians never lost a territory but gained a territory and created alliances. A democratically elected government under Bhutto had great ties with Iran, Suharwardy initiated alliance with China, and Iskandar Mirza bought Gwadar from Oman.

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## SBD-3

Blabla said:


> Stop telling me stories now Modi has already accepted it was India and there 1.5 million people who conspired against Pakistan to make Bangladesh


See, how you try to dismiss the truth terming it as stories. India didn't succeed for nothing. If Niazi and his men were brave sons of soil, they would have fought till the last man. Heck even Japanese soldiers used to be more brave than Niazi and his band as to overrun them, the opponent would have to literally kill the last soldier in the trench. And this courage required only a vow to their Empror, no Hoors, No Jannat, No Jihad nothing. Niazi and his men knew it coming so they chose of save their lives rather than fighting like honorable men.

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## Blabla

cb4 said:


> Its really no surprise. The Army and politicians in oppositions have always tried to discredit his work or tried to takeover. There is no limit to this. The Makraan Coast Highway and M-2 Motorway was under construction in the 90s until Musharraf came and laballed it as his. CPEC again is Nawaz's pet project which has been negotiated with Chinese. Since they can't takeover now, they'll try to use security perimeters and opposition's hue and cry to spread influence.
> 
> 
> 
> Was Bhutto responsible for 90,000 POWs? What in hell was Yahya doing ? What was Ayub doing when China told him during their 1962 war with India to take Kashmir ? Zia obviously was a radical islamist, and Musharraf, he along with 4 other Generals planned Kargil to oust Sharif and disrupt a deal in which Vajpaye had agreed to solve Kashmir.
> 
> Civilians never lost a territory but gained a territory and created alliances. A democratically elected government under Bhutto had great ties with Iran, Suharwardy initiated alliance with China, and Iskandar Mirza bought Gwadar from Oman.


Chinese are interested in making CPEC its not a initiative of Nawaz sharif . Nawaz is good in money laundering and corruption . The main task of any Govt in the world is to have make tax collection better , better health opportunities better education law and order should be made better he did nothing in last 20 years . 
On the other hand all the dams were made in the time of dictatorship public get job on merit and inflation reduces but when people like Nawaz and zardari come in power they take billions of dollars of loan there aim is to make Pakistan Bankcrupt and in return for further Loan pakistan has to give up its nuclear program its deterrence thats it



SBD-3 said:


> See, how you try to dismiss the truth terming it as stories. India didn't succeed for nothing. If Niazi and his men were brave sons of soil, they would have fought till the last man. Heck even Japanese soldiers used to be more brave than Niazi and his band as to overrun them, the opponent would have to literally kill the last soldier in the trench. And this courage required only a vow to their Empror, no Hoors, No Jannat, No Jihad nothing. Niazi and his men knew it coming so they chose of save their lives rather than fighting like honorable men.


India has conspired in our territory what ever was happening in East pakistan was the internal matter of Pakistan .India has committed a war crime


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## The Sword Of Allah

The army is made for the defence of the country not for monitoring of the building of roads but i agree that the current government is not capable of handling the project
So just do it the army should take in


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## Blabla

Syed mohammad said:


> The army is made for the defence of the country not for monitoring of the building of roads but i agree that the current government is not capable of handling the project
> So just do it the army should take in


Pakistan does not need democracy we need something like China army rule or communism is better for a nation like Pak



SBD-3 said:


> See, how you try to dismiss the truth terming it as stories. India didn't succeed for nothing. If Niazi and his men were brave sons of soil, they would have fought till the last man. Heck even Japanese soldiers used to be more brave than Niazi and his band as to overrun them, the opponent would have to literally kill the last soldier in the trench. And this courage required only a vow to their Empror, no Hoors, No Jannat, No Jihad nothing. Niazi and his men knew it coming so they chose of save their lives rather than fighting like honorable men.


Point is India has broken a international Law simple

Bhutto is also responsible for the creation of Bangladesh


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## SBD-3

Blabla said:


> Point is India has broken a international Law simple


There's only one law, survival of the fittest. What was military brass able to do when US invaded Pakistan and killed OBL near abbotabad? another violation of international law 
Pakistanis should be more thankful to Chinese who has been blocking diplomatic attempts by Indians to brand Pakistan as a terrorist state.

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## Blabla

My question if a country is bigger and powerful who gave them the right to bully there neighbors and conspire on them ?



SBD-3 said:


> There's only one law, survival of the fittest. What was military brass able to do when US invaded Pakistan and killed OBL near abbotabad? another violation of international law


That is a different story . USA has captured a global terrorist & destroyed him its justified and East Pakistan was a legal part of Pakistan .


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## SBD-3

Blabla said:


> That is a different story . *USA has captured a global terrorist* & destroyed him its justified and East Pakistan was a legal part of Pakistan .


To hamari fauj kya AC laga ky so rahi thee?


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## The Sword Of Allah

Blabla said:


> Pakistan does not need democracy we need something like China army rule or communism is better for a nation like Pak
> 
> 
> Point is India has broken a international Law simple
> 
> Bhutto is also responsible for the creation of Bangladesh



Blabla asalamualikum 

What ever you have said about no democracy is right as this system is not democracy someone should come and change the entire system


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## Edevelop

Blabla said:


> Chinese are interested in making CPEC its not a initiative of Nawaz sharif . Nawaz is good in money laundering and corruption . The main task of any Govt in the world is to have make tax collection better , better health opportunities better education law and order should be made better he did nothing in last 20 years .
> On the other hand all the dams were made in the time of dictatorship public get job on merit and inflation reduces but when people like Nawaz and zardari come in power they take billions of dollars of loan there aim is to make Pakistan Bankcrupt and in return for further Loan pakistan has to give up its nuclear program its deterrence thats it



The few development projects were built by the Americans under conditions it gets a Military base against Soviet Union. An American Pilot in a U-2 Aircraft was shot down and subsequently told Russians he came from Peshawar, landing Ayub in mess. There is a difference between a soldier who is trained to use bullets and a diplomat who is trained to stay in peace and use his education and brain.

What Nawaz is able to do in his 6th year as Prime Minister is what no one had done in the last 60 years. All this time in power, why couldn't Army make CPEC ? Forget that even, explain who is able to build so many energy projects with China, yet also getting deals done with Central Asians, Qataris, and Russians to import electricity and gas all the same time ? Who is able to improve railways ? Who is able to launch a nationwide national health insurance ? Who was the last leader popular with people ?

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## SBD-3

cb4 said:


> The few development projects were built by the Americans under conditions it gets a Military base against Soviet Union. An American Pilot was shot down by a U-2 Aircraft and subsequently told Russians he came from Peshawar, landing Ayub in mess. There is a difference between a soldier who is trained to use bullets and a diplomat who is trained to stay in peace and use his education and brain.
> 
> What Nawaz is able to do in his 6th year as Prime Minister is what no one had done in the last 60 years. All this time in power, why couldn't Army make CPEC ? Forget that even, explain who is able to build so many energy projects with China, yet also getting deals done with Central Asians, Qataris, and Russians to import electricity and gas all the same time ? Who is able to improve railways ? Who is able to launch a nationwide national health insurance ? Who was the last leader popular with people ?


These folks don't know that India has grown to such economic and diplomatic importance that no country (maybe except China) is willing to lose ties with India on the cost of Pakistan. Perhaps our military planners don't think that there are about 148 countries around us rather than just China,India,US and KSA. How Iranian president's visit was neutralized is a testament to the fact that they want to keep their diplomacy to these four countries.
Indian lobby in US is now so strong that US never objects to any Indian move against Pakistan. And how Gulbashan Jhadav's story was effectively shrugged aside by world should serve as a stark reminder than no one is willing to believe our military junta , despite them being correct.

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## iioal malik

Blabla said:


> Nawaz sharif and these Politicans are scum of Pakistan there are some general like Musharraf and Kyani . Nawaz cannot bring this own money from the panama Island how can he bring a investment of 46 billion dollar ? . In last 20 years of his governance he did nothing tell me one police station , school college hospital , venue office which has gone better ? Army on the other hand sacrificed a lot in the war in terror and economy always gets better in Pakistan when there is dictator ship
> 
> Army has very little reputation left if they lose this then army will be stones on the roads when they live for office in uniform.these fillty corrupt army generals are bigger threat to Pakistan then India...Raheel sharif is cleaning the mess left behind of last dictator ...god knows if next general who comes bring more dirty mess or good vision ...stop calling all politicans names imran khan must be your favourite I believe...
> Raheel sharif is working with Nawaz sharif not against him reason behind gen Raheel success


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## Edevelop

SBD-3 said:


> These folks don't know that India has grown to such economic and diplomatic importance that no country (maybe except China) is willing to lose ties with India on the cost of Pakistan. Perhaps our military planners don't think that there are about 148 countries around us rather than just China,India,US and KSA. How Iranian president's visit was neutralized is a testament to the fact that they want to keep their diplomacy to these four countries.
> Indian lobby in US is now so strong that US never objects to any Indian move against Pakistan. And how Gulbashan Jhadav's story was effectively shrugged aside by world should serve as a stark reminder than no one is willing to believe our military junta , despite them being correct.



Back of their minds they think every economic ties have to be made strategic ties. In the past 70 years thats what they has been trying to do. Even having got ditched and used like a tissue paper by Americans, they are finding it very difficult to let go of the hand. Sometime you need to accept reality and learn your lessons. A good approach has been made by the government to stay neutral between Saudis and Iranians and not to get caught up in their proxy wars. But you know when money is gold for military folks, they will do anything. Likewise, its also great that some headway has been made to restore relations with Russia. Hopefully these planners come to senses we can't replace a big market like India and what we must do is stay purely in economic interests. I would say even Turkey and Italy approach has not been bad and we have seen considerable growth in ties. We must keep looking for countries that can be part of mutual interests


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## SBD-3

cb4 said:


> Back of their minds they think every economic ties have to be made strategic ties. In the past 70 years thats what they has been trying to do. Even having got ditched and used like a tissue paper by Americans, they are finding it very difficult to let go of the hand. Sometime you need to accept reality and learn your lessons. A good approach has been made by the government to stay neutral between Saudis and Iranians and not to get caught up in their proxy wars. But you know when money is gold for military folks, they will do anything. Likewise, its also great that some headway has been made to restore relations with Russia. Hopefully these planners come to senses we can't replace a big market like India and what we must do is stay purely in economic interests. I would say even Turkey and Italy approach has not been bad and we have seen considerable growth in ties. We must keep looking for countries that can be part of mutual interests


Turkey, yes to some extent. Italy and Europe, I don't think so.


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## salarsikander

cb4 said:


> The few development projects were built by the Americans under conditions it gets a Military base against Soviet Union. An American Pilot in a U-2 Aircraft was shot down and subsequently told Russians he came from Peshawar, landing Ayub in mess. There is a difference between a soldier who is trained to use bullets and a diplomat who is trained to stay in peace and use his education and brain.
> 
> What Nawaz is able to do in his 6th year as Prime Minister is what no one had done in the last 60 years. All this time in power, why couldn't Army make CPEC ? Forget that even, explain who is able to build so many energy projects with China, yet also getting deals done with Central Asians, Qataris, and Russians to import electricity and gas all the same time ? Who is able to improve railways ? Who is able to launch a nationwide national health insurance ? Who was the last leader popular with people ?


So where did he run off to now ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

cb4 said:


> Do you know how long Clintons have been in politics ??? Thats right... more than 20 fucking years and the whole world knows they get money from corporations and do public speaking at major institutions'. Still in their entire career their combined net worth is no more than 1/5th of a Billion dollars. But Musharraf, lol a 3rd class individual somehow is able to earn more than them...



Does he? Can you prove that? Do you have his tax details? Does he have any corruption case against him? Any allegations ? Even if he does .. What's stopping N league from pursuing legal action against him?

BC bubblo shareef made billions when he was 15? Haien? Sharam magar tum ko nahin aati!


> Comparing Nawaz with Generals is a joke.



Nawaz himself is the illegitimate child of Gen Zia .. 


> Nawaz owned a Mercedes when he was studying in College and his father worked hard to get them there.


Nawaz shareef papa made billions of dollars of dollars? No wonder he gives a few hundred rupees in tax?

His fat sons also became billionaires at the age of 15.. Buying Mayfair apartments in central London? Also ended up creating fake/shell companies ?? Sharam kar bhai!

Here is his Mercedes ;








> Musharraf on the other hand was a chawal like all people who join Army



Why did they do chawaloos things to his mother and his the mothers of his supporters ? Chutiye zuban sambhal k rakh! Haramis like you sleep at night because of men who bleed to save your arses!



> and a poor soldier who refused to go to war against India and decided to go into hiding in Karachi


.

Son .. He was awarded Sitara e Jurat as a complain .. For risking his life and getting troops out of a hit SPG!

Idiots like you wouldn't know.


> The guy is responsible for looting and letting others loot and making terrorists like MQM terrorists strong.



Looting what beta?

Your Noora has been sitting in MQMs lap .. Making no alliances with them ..


> Yes we know how competent these Generals were. They were smarter than bloody civilians like Zulfqar Ali Bhutto who was educated from Oxford and Harvard, smarter than Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a revolutionary Poet, smarter than Abdus Salaam, a Nobel Prize recipient and founder of SUPARCO, Abdul Qadeer Khan and Munir Ahmed, leading scientists in Nuclear Program, Mehboob ul Haq, the inventor of Human Development Index and father of South Korea's economists




Bar Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who did considerable damage to the country with his EP policy,islamisation campaign .. None of them were politicians ! Which degrees does nawaz or his brother hold? Degree in chutiyapa?

Your Nawazs was Gen Zias bastard son .. Do you want me to post the video clippings?


.


> Pity all these people were either suppressed by Army or had their contributions discredited and robbed.




Really and how did army decredit them ?

Barking and attacking people is nawaz leagues work .. Recently model town massacre and fully butt !



> lol DHA is for the elite by the elite.




My boy it isn't Fuaji Foundations issue .. They work for welfare of retired troops who buy land by paying for it through relevant funds .. Pay taxes .. So instead of barking .. Itna dum hai you prove them wrong .. Go to court ? Phatti kyun hai tum logoun ki?


> In 60+ years of military rule thats what they had been doing.



Oh boy.. Pak is barely 69 years old .. Your Ganja chutiya has ruled thrice .. That means army ruled this country for 60+ years and chutiyas like nawaz ruled for what? Shyt? 

Lmao.. Gas dimagh kou char gai hai kya?


> Create a state within a state and benefit those who are in your family. They should be ashamed, taking over Rawalpindi



I live in RWP .. Tell me how army is taking over Rawalpindi? Khar dimagh.

Also tell us about the benefits !



> and subjecting sons of the soil to live in densely populated areas where there is no water and electricity



BS! Haha .. What a chutiyapa .. Swinging like a pendulum .. Lying through your teeth.. Hahaha patwari.


> , taking over lands in GB and AJK where an average Pakistani is not allowed due to disputed territory clauses




Really? I'm from a military family .. Mujay bhi lay dei wahan lands ? Oh wait .. Harami jhooti hi Bol saktay haien .. Bolo bhai.

Stop soiling your pants !

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## Blabla

cb4 said:


> The few development projects were built by the Americans under conditions it gets a Military base against Soviet Union. An American Pilot in a U-2 Aircraft was shot down and subsequently told Russians he came from Peshawar, landing Ayub in mess. There is a difference between a soldier who is trained to use bullets and a diplomat who is trained to stay in peace and use his education and brain.
> 
> What Nawaz is able to do in his 6th year as Prime Minister is what no one had done in the last 60 years. All this time in power, why couldn't Army make CPEC ? Forget that even, explain who is able to build so many energy projects with China, yet also getting deals done with Central Asians, Qataris, and Russians to import electricity and gas all the same time ? Who is able to improve railways ? Who is able to launch a nationwide national health insurance ? Who was the last leader popular with people ?


we know the level of corruption nawaz has done in qatar LNG Deal tell me the job of Govt is to do tax collection , law and order , education health make civil institution . Name one of them which he made better ? .Pakistan is the biggest ally of America after NATO what ever Pakistan did against soviet union was in the biggest interest of Pakistan . Nawaz sharif is corruption having companies in Pannama island and illegal billion of dollar . Nawaz and zardari if these few hundred families bring there wealth of over 100 billion dollar back to Pak all over problems get solved . CPEC army is making and first time in the history of Pakistan a lowest rank solider of army think now economy is the biggest weapon of a state and army is committed to sacrifice there selves and will go to any level to fulfill it . If Nawaz is a real leader why he didnt even just for public consumption condemn India for the terrorism its doing all over Pakistan ? 
I dont follow any leader even Imran khan I always see the broader interest of the nation and ofcourse myselves but there is no politican who want to work for our future


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## Edevelop

SBD-3 said:


> Turkey, yes to some extent. Italy and Europe, I don't think so.



I say Italy because it is our 3rd largest contributor in FDI and 2nd largest trading partner in EU. And since Indians have diplomatic rows due to some cases involving Navy officers, we have been been successful to some extent.


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## Blabla

Syed mohammad said:


> Blabla asalamualikum
> 
> What ever you have said about no democracy is right as this system is not democracy someone should come and change the entire system


We dont need democracy it cannot work on this part of the world look at chinese they are the world biggest economy with Communism

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## Edevelop

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Really? I'm from a military family ..



Nough said


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## DESERT FIGHTER

cb4 said:


> Nough said




Prove me wrong kakay.. Prove 1 thing wrong .. "Nough said".

As for my family.. Betay .. Been serving this country for several generations.. Including The ongoing operations in FATA.
I'm a practicing lawyer too.. Aja Lahore high court .. Chai pilaoun tujhay..

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## salarsikander

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Prove me wrong kakay.. Prove 1 thing wrong .. "Nough said".
> 
> 
> I'm a practicing lawyer too.. Aja Lahore high court .. Chai pilaoun tujhay..


When I m coming next to lahore TU mannu Kashmiri chai pilaaega !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

salarsikander said:


> When I m coming next to lahore TU mannu Kashmiri chai pilaaega !



Bhai .. Jab kaho gai... 

P.S; I'm not Panjabi,


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## The Sandman

cb4 said:


> and 2nd largest trading partner in EU.


Which one is 1st Germany?


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## Moonlight

Involvement of army in this particular project is need of the time. It's hard to believe corrupt politicians. This is a huge project and a tiny risk can lead to many other problems.

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## salarsikander

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhai .. Jab kaho gai...
> 
> P.S; I'm not Panjabi,


So you are not in Lahore then?
I know i am speaking to Balochi bhai

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## DESERT FIGHTER

salarsikander said:


> So you are not in Lahore then?
> I know i am speaking to Balochi bhai



Bhai shuttling between RWP - Lhr

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## salarsikander

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhai shuttling between RWP - Lhr


so basically ap either LHR or RWP pai jaao g ?

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## Edevelop

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Prove me wrong kakay..
> I'm a practicing lawyer too.. Aja Lahore high court .. Chai pilaoun tujhay..



I have family in the military also but doesn't mean I have to defend everyone. Except for poor jawans, the Military's Officers are nothing but badmash. You will never find an unemployed person whether he is serving or retired. They will be in road building, customs, residential schemes, or anything else which makes them quick money. I have seen officers slapping the sh!t out of traffic wardens with my own eyes just because of chalan. The only thing they are good at is speaking English but what can you say when they have been groomed to act like Colonists since independence.

Chai kya pilanee hai. Judge bhe pressure mai akar verdict tum hai dayga.


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## Blabla

SBD-3 said:


> To hamari fauj kya AC laga ky so rahi thee?


What CIA and FBI was doing when 9 / 11 happened ?


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## Viper0011.

Blabla said:


> What CIA and FBI was doing when 9 / 11 happened ?



Your post tells me the level of sense in your head!!!! You are comparing TWO civilian agencies with the Pakistani MILITARY  !!!! That's not a comparison to begin with. 

For your information, since the sad events of 911, our law enforcement agencies have un-foiled and stopped countless plots. Sadly, you only see the one that went through. But in Pakistan's case (pretty sad example), this terrorism drama has been going on since Zia. There were 10-15 years between Zia and US forces stepping foot in Afghanistan, why didn't the Pakistani army fix this mess? In fact, they were supporting these barbaric terrorists as the "strategic depth"!!! And these same people have killed thousands of Pakistani soldiers and civilians since then.

The point is, it is TIME that the Army allowed civilian institutions to be created. 1971, Zia, Rise of Taliban as strategic depth, post 911 and till date, a constant battle with the extremist mentality has resulted in the Army stretched too thin. They can't do EVERYTHING in the country. 

The country was built by a civilian movement, not a military coupe!! Its time that the Civilians get their country back and civilian focused institutions are built. If the institutions are allowed to be built, within 10 years, you'll start to produce nationalistic loyal leaders. But so far, the civilian rule gets cut in the middle, everything goes back to 0, and then Marshall law comes in and the cycle repeats. Nothing gets done.

A nation and a successful country is really an integrated system running with ALL parties working together like the Civilians, Military, Judiciary, etc. Its not one party thinking they can have it all.


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## salarsikander

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_...MiAy2_eU2EHQhLDuNPuG8HXeCV55oq2IMt8SfjoZqqGdg

He comes unprepared, a proper unprofessional style to discuss ties with Chinese, let alone handling CPEC


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## Zarvan

iioal malik said:


> Army is being ridiculous as usual...No wonder true civilian government never trusted these guys...their services must not devide with money this is last and lowest on their knees they could go...


True civilian and most corrupt Government. Please complete the sentance . As for Army they are doing write thing other wise this mafia family and party PML N will destroy everythin


iioal malik said:


> True civilian and most corrupt Government. Please complete the sentance . As for Army they are doing write thing other wise this mafia family and party PML N will destroy everything



Army should not even think of doing anything close to this...army reputation was down until General Raheel came on the scene .also it won't take long for it to go down again....army didn't bring this 45 billion plus investment never did and never will...so shut up and don't let this get into you head...
civil war in Pakistan and army responsible for it last few things left for army before pakistanis head on GHQ mission ...[/QUOTE]
It was Army in first place and Army reputation was restored by Kiyani and got the boost by Raheel and without Army in this CPEC won't get completed


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## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> True civilian and most corrupt Government. Please complete the sentance . As for Army they are doing write thing other wise this mafia family and party PML N will destroy everythin
> 
> 
> Army should not even think of doing anything close to this...army reputation was down until General Raheel came on the scene .also it won't take long for it to go down again....army didn't bring this 45 billion plus investment never did and never will...so shut up and don't let this get into you head...
> civil war in Pakistan and army responsible for it last few things left for army before pakistanis head on GHQ mission ...



Poeple like you, have got to quit playing favorites when it comes to your country's national interest. Its sad to see how you people play groups and institutions and lie off your teeth to do propaganda!!

Most corrupt government? I thought that was every government but any military government. But the country never say a dollar worth of real growth in the military's rule????? How come? 

You forgot to mention people who bring "political consultants" from India to architect the sit-ins which nearly broke Pakistan like 1971. Same people take dozens of millions from Pakistan out to Indian offshore companies to make more money.Same people have millions under their British kids name. Same people have relations with land mafia lords like Aleem Khan, and the home they live in, was aquired by threatening hundreds of families to death to acquire land for peanuts in the most expensive real estate in Pakistan (Islamabad). And all these are allowed. But the one person you don't like, they HAVE to be the most corrupt. But you'll close your eyes from Kiyani, previous heads of Navy, NLC, Mushy (my leaks are real and they go pretty deep so I'll shut my mouth, you got the point). 





> It was Army in first place and Army reputation was restored by Kiyani and got the boost by Raheel and without Army in this CPEC won't get completed



Army's reputation was "RESTORED" by Kiyani? By doing that 6 billion worth of corruption in DHA?? (just listing ONE example) . Gen. Raheel, hell yea, he is the real man of honor. Better and loyal to country than ANY other general I've met since Zia's time. This is the ONLY gentleman who'se truly restored the Army's reputation. I will give him props. For everyone before him, you are miss-stating facts!! 




Zarvan said:


> Army should not even think of doing anything close to this...army reputation was down until General Raheel came on the scene .




Here, I totally agree with you on everything in the above line. Gen. Raheel has done a great job in re-establishing Army's image. It MUST not be distroyed again by putting these brave men into situations where they'll become greedy (part of being a human) and will do corruption like administering the CPEC. Things like those, bring out power hungry generals and then coupes and power-punches wanting to own Pakistan like they bought it from a store!!!!!


Pakistan needs true civilian institutions. The military needs to allow that development. The CPEC would create a political and mental bench mark for people that would bring a LOT of awareness in the political arena. Anyone in the next government and going forward, will need to do just as much work, to be compared to the CPEC, to get people's votes. This mindset MUST not be damaged by any ventures politically or through the military. This alone will turn people away from who they like, or ethnic crap, to performance based measurements. That is the begining of decline of corruption and all from Pakistan. As anyone in their 5 years, who couldn't develop significantly larger projects like the CPEC, will become a political history. THAT is what you want, people (the voters) knowing they vote for people who have grown the country and have created opportunity for the nation. Not "talkers", "Liars" "Gossippers" and Lazy as* politicians who can't produce an Egg a day, let alone producing CPEC like projects. But they would love to come from the backdoor and sieze the show to put their name at the end of this work. People aren't stupid at the end.

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## Zarvan

Viper0011. said:


> Poeple like you, have got to quit playing favorites when it comes to your country's national interest. Its sad to see how you people play groups and institutions and lie off your teeth to do propaganda!!
> 
> Most corrupt government? I thought that was every government but any military government. But the country never say a dollar worth of real growth in the military's rule????? How come?
> 
> You forgot to mention people who bring "political consultants" from India to architect the sit-ins which nearly broke Pakistan like 1971. Same people take dozens of millions from Pakistan out to Indian offshore companies to make more money.Same people have millions under their British kids name. Same people have relations with land mafia lords like Aleem Khan, and the home they live in, was aquired by threatening hundreds of families to death to acquire land for peanuts in the most expensive real estate in Pakistan (Islamabad). And all these are allowed. But the one person you don't like, they HAVE to be the most corrupt. But you'll close your eyes from Kiyani, previous heads of Navy, NLC, Mushy (my leaks are real and they go pretty deep so I'll shut my mouth, you got the point).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army's reputation was "RESTORED" by Kiyani? By doing that 6 billion worth of corruption in DHA?? (just listing ONE example) . Gen. Raheel, hell yea, he is the real man of honor. Better and loyal to country than ANY other general I've met since Zia's time. This is the ONLY gentleman who'se truly restored the Army's reputation. I will give him props. For everyone before him, you are miss-stating facts!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, I totally agree with you on everything in the above line. Gen. Raheel has done a great job in re-establishing Army's image. It MUST not be distroyed again by putting these brave men into situations where they'll become greedy (part of being a human) and will do corruption like administering the CPEC. Things like those, bring out power hungry generals and then coupes and power-punches wanting to own Pakistan like they bought it from a store!!!!!
> 
> 
> Pakistan needs true civilian institutions. The military needs to allow that development. The CPEC would create a political and mental bench mark for people that would bring a LOT of awareness in the political arena. Anyone in the next government and going forward, will need to do just as much work, to be compared to the CPEC, to get people's votes. This mindset MUST not be damaged by any ventures politically or through the military. This alone will turn people away from who they like, or ethnic crap, to performance based measurements. That is the begining of decline of corruption and all from Pakistan. As anyone in their 5 years, who couldn't develop significantly larger projects like the CPEC, will become a political history. THAT is what you want, people (the voters) knowing they vote for people who have grown the country and have created opportunity for the nation. Not "talkers", "Liars" "Gossippers" and Lazy as* politicians who can't produce an Egg a day, let alone producing CPEC like projects. But they would love to come from the backdoor and sieze the show to put their name at the end of this work. People aren't stupid at the end.



Military Governments are not that corrupt their problem is others like becoming USA puppet like Musharraf did. Musharraf didn't face much corruption charges his problem was again becoming USA puppet which led to disastrous results. As for PPP and PML N and ANP and MQM man they compete in corruption with each other and MQM also in target killing and bhatta. These parties have made world records in corruption.


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## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> Military Governments are not that corrupt their problem is others like becoming USA puppet like Musharraf did. Musharraf didn't face much corruption charges his problem was again becoming USA puppet which led to disastrous results. As for PPP and PML N and ANP and MQM man they compete in corruption with each other and MQM also in target killing and bhatta. These parties have made world records in corruption.




  you know what you are talking about for sure? You are mixing two topics into 1. On corruption, I can literally tell you which general made what, let me know if you want me to "leak" it on here. The ONLY general who's clean is Gen. Shariff (since Zia's time). That's it.

On Mushy, lol, his son's net worth was $ 15 million in 2002. He was worth $ 105 + million by the end of 2011!!!!! Majority of this money was sent from channeling US aid back to him, and the US aid was for the Pakistanis mind you !! Mushy has over 15 million pounds worth of real estate in the UK. I never realized all generals are paid with Diamonds and Gold, instead of rupees .

The ONLY non corruption 5 years in the past 50 years of the entire history of Pakisan, will be these ones (and hopefully future one's too). The civil-military relations have put in a solid foundation for an advancing Pakistan. The fools just need to stay away from damaging the progress.

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## Zarvan

Viper0011. said:


> you know what you are talking about for sure? You are mixing two topics into 1. On corruption, I can literally tell you which general made what, let me know if you want me to "leak" it on here. The ONLY general who's clean is Gen. Shariff (since Zia's time). That's it.
> 
> On Mushy, lol, his son's net worth was $ 15 million in 2002. He was worth $ 105 + million by the end of 2011!!!!! Majority of this money was sent from channeling US aid back to him, and the US aid was for the Pakistanis mind you !! Mushy has over 15 million pounds worth of real estate in the UK. I never realized all generals are paid with Diamonds and Gold, instead of rupees .
> 
> The ONLY non corruption 5 years in the past 50 years of the entire history of Pakisan, will be these ones (and hopefully future one's too). The civil-military relations have put in a solid foundation for an advancing Pakistan. The fools just need to stay away from damaging the progress.


Most Generals are clean and I know I don't trust any one blindly Mr. I am the most suspicious person and no Musharraf doesn't have this worth all wrong. These PML N and PPP and ANP have looted billions of dollars


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## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> Most Generals are clean and I know I don't trust any one blindly Mr. I am the most suspicious person and no Musharraf doesn't have this worth all wrong. These PML N and PPP and ANP have looted billions of dollars




I don't do suspicious anything about people. I trust verified information. I tell my employees every day, NO EMOTIONS, just DATA!!!!

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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> You believe in giving chances to the bastards?? the very same bastards who are out of country, because they are leaking some deep shit after panama scandal ? I would rather have men in uniform anyday and twice on Holi to not only protect us but to demonstrate others that we can take strict action against any stupid misadventure


Don't make it a personal thing, don't be blinded by your dislike for this set of politcans but understand that the only way Pakistan is going to progress is through stability and democracy. For that, you need to give the SYSTEM a chance, constantly undermine it at every turn and is it any surprise you get b*astards in the civlian governement today? 

Past failure does not mean they are always destined to fail but giving all the power to an unelected organisation like the military is going to ensure more of the same for the rest of time. I am yet to see any evidence that the military in Pakistan is actually more useful for Pakistan's economic postion than the civlians, the only difference is the military is better at hiding their failures and there is no power that will oust them from office (as they will do to the civlians). Why would a general who is meant to have devouted their entire career to learning how to wage war be better than a civilain who is well versed in administration at administering an entire nation?

Show me another succesful economy that has generals administrating civlian projects.

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## I FLY HIGH

Any parallel govt is not allowed in the country . Govt must look into it and army must act in accordance with the law to secure the areas where insurgency exists .


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## salarsikander

Abingdonboy said:


> a civilain who is well versed in administration at administering an entire nation?


Hi, 

This is where you are wrong. A guy who can barely present himself in front of Chinese, is qualified enough to run a country?
Democracy will only work when you have sincere and qualified people working for the interest of the country and not for their own.


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## SBD-3

cb4 said:


> I say Italy because it is our 3rd largest contributor in FDI and 2nd largest trading partner in EU. And since Indians have diplomatic rows due to some cases involving Navy officers, we have been been successful to some extent.


Italians have always been a more closed diplomats. Havent seen them active outside EU. But I am sure that they would also prefer benifits of Indian partnership more than Pak.


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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is where you are wrong. A guy who can barely present himself in front of Chinese, is qualified enough to run a country?
> Democracy will only work when you have sincere and qualified people working for the interest of the country and not for their own.


But you want civlians to be qualified at some point, right? Whilst the leaders of today may not be what you would like they need to be given a chance. How else does capacity building take place? Or is the army destined to take charge for the rest of Pakistan's history?


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## salarsikander

Abingdonboy said:


> But you want civlians to be qualified at some point, right? Whilst the leaders of today may not be what you would like they need to be given a chance. How else does capacity building take place? Or is the army destined to take charge for the rest of Pakistan's history?


Who is in charge now?

You cant ignore what the mass wants from themselves


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## Shah01

@Abingdonboy Totally agree with you.
@salarsikander Army has been fiddling with the system for almost 60 years and I think it is time they should concentrate on the job they have been trained for rather than manage the country.
Have you ever thought about why Army has not fixed the police department or the Judiciary in the last 6-7 decades (training them and put a process to maintain fitness etc) if they were the only well wishers of the nation?
Why they didn't reform the education system? The budget for Armed forces is almost $7.6 billion and $800 million for Education (a mere 10% of the armed forces budget)..... The next generation will still be uneducated and will elect the same Bhutto (abhi bhi zinda hai, till he stays alive there will be no respite) and Nawaz (metrobus etc) unless as @Abingdonboy said, we need to give it a chance and in time democracy will evolve (through performance evaluation... hopefully the 58% literate people will start the performance evaluation process and choose a leader accordingly). 
Corruptions will happen, be it democracy or dictatorship. The aim should be to minimize corruption and inefficiencies (you cannot totally eliminate these two). The civil *servants* are well educated but corrupt to the core... As Quad rightly said in one of his speech that civil *servants* are there to *serve* the population and not rule. Sad to say in Pakistan they are rulers (this is where the problem is, this is where the initial reforms are needed and this is where army should make amends internally and externally).

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## salarsikander

Shah01 said:


> @Abingdonboy Totally agree with you.
> @salarsikander Army has been fiddling with the system for almost 60 years and I think it is time they should concentrate on the job they have been trained for rather than manage the country.
> Have you ever thought about why Army has not fixed the police department or the Judiciary in the last 6-7 decades (training them and put a process to maintain fitness etc) if they were the only well wishers of the nation?
> Why they didn't reform the education system? The budget for Armed forces is almost $7.6 billion and $800 million for Education (a mere 10% of the armed forces budget)..... The next generation will still be uneducated and will elect the same Bhutto (abhi bhi zinda hai, till he stays alive there will be no respite) and Nawaz (metrobus etc) unless as @Abingdonboy said, we need to give it a chance and in time democracy will evolve (through performance evaluation... hopefully the 58% literate people will start the performance evaluation process and choose a leader accordingly).
> Corruptions will happen, be it democracy or dictatorship. The aim should be to minimize corruption and inefficiencies (you cannot totally eliminate these two). The civil *servants* are well educated but corrupt to the core... As Quad rightly said in one of his speech that civil *servants* are there to *serve* the population and not rule. Sad to say in Pakistan they are rulers (this is where the problem is, this is where the initial reforms are needed and this is where army should make amends internally and externally).


Hi, 
Out of that budget Tell me how well have they performed in their department ? 
Whose fault it is if the education budget is so low ? ARMED Forces or the federal sucker ?

Tell me how much (if Any) time have you spent in pak ? 
It seems your are not aware of the ground realities and its dynamics


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## Shah01

Well education sector performed ok with the budget available (catering for almost 40 million students). I say both are at fault. Legacy of past/current mistakes.
I have spent more time in Pakistan than any other country. Being abroad does not mean I am less patriotic or not aware of the ground realities. I may be able to see with a bit more clarity than someone residing in Pakistan (don't take this personally). 
I did not side with democracy or dictatorship but indicated at giving democracy a chance. Together with reforms in police, judiciary and education (this is where army should help) will give a permanent solution to current problems and instability. 
I will say this again that armed forces are trained to fight and not to rule and think as well as their civilian equivalents.

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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> Out of that budget Tell me how well have they performed in their department ?
> Whose fault it is if the education budget is so low ? ARMED Forces or the federal sucker ?
> 
> Tell me how much (if Any) time have you spent in pak ?
> It seems your are not aware of the ground realities and its dynamics


I don't see why you need to have visited Pakistan to be able to offer (possible) prescriptions. There is nothing unique about Pakistan or its people, they have the same basic desires, functions and cognitive abilities as any other member of the human race. What is unique to Pakistan is its history and specific model of governance over the past 70 years.

I am still failing to understand why in a nation of 200 million people just 100 or so (the very top brass of the PA) at any one time can be considered qualified to run the country. What is it in the Pak Mil training that makes these men so special? Nothing other than they are the ones with the guns (which they have used to cease all the power/resources). Democracy is not an instant product, it needs to be treated like a fragile flower intially, constantly watered and taken care of so that its roots can grow deeper and deeper and then eventually it can be fully self sufficent and strong in its own right. What the PA are constantly doing is killing it off whilst it is still in its gestation stage. It is simply inconceviable that the Pakistan Army will outperform civlian elected governements in the long run- they just need to be given the chance. 

Right now the system as it is will attract the corrupt and those out to loot whilst the sun is shining because the shadow of the PA is looming and thus the incentive is to take take take whilst you can and perhaps know that the PA is always there to pick up the slack. But if you establish a real democracy where the military works for the civlians then the entire dynamic will change, the civlians should be put in a postion to sink or swim on their own, as it stands dual power centres are tripping over themselves and making a mess of the entire show.


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## VCheng

Abingdonboy said:


> It is simply inconceviable that the Pakistan Army will outperform civlian elected governements in the long run- they just need to be given the chance.



If your premise as stated is true, then it follows that it is in the interests of the Army never to let such a chance materialize.


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## salarsikander

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see why you need to have visited Pakistan to be able to offer (possible) prescriptions. There is nothing unique about Pakistan or its people, they have the same basic desires, functions and cognitive abilities as any other member of the human race. What is unique to Pakistan is its history and specific model of governance over the past 70 years.
> 
> I am still failing to understand why in a nation of 200 million people just 100 or so (the very top brass of the PA) at any one time can be considered qualified to run the country. What is it in the Pak Mil training that makes these men so special? Nothing other than they are the ones with the guns (which they have used to cease all the power/resources). Democracy is not an instant product, it needs to be treated like a fragile flower intially, constantly watered and taken care of so that its roots can grow deeper and deeper and then eventually it can be fully self sufficent and strong in its own right. What the PA are constantly doing is killing it off whilst it is still in its gestation stage. It is simply inconceviable that the Pakistan Army will outperform civlian elected governements in the long run- they just need to be given the chance.
> 
> Right now the system as it is will attract the corrupt and those out to loot whilst the sun is shining because the shadow of the PA is looming and thus the incentive is to take take take whilst you can and perhaps know that the PA is always there to pick up the slack. But if you establish a real democracy where the military works for the civlians then the entire dynamic will change, the civlians should be put in a postion to sink or swim on their own, as it stands dual power centres are tripping over themselves and making a mess of the entire show.


Hi, 

In order to understand the dynamics it is better to see at hand what is happening, merely forming an opnion based on news that you receive is not good enough !

Secondly the dynamics that we share, unless and until literacy improves and we have qualified politicians
(not some those who have fake degrees) we will not be able to reap the benefits offered by Democracy. Right now the current ruling party has sugar mills, steel mills, theuir entire family in politics. I am not sure where in democracy that happens. If we do not have a above of the mentioned point, we will just become another vassal state like Bangladesh( no offence to Bengali memebers) 

And we have already seen the love story of Nawaz with his Indian counterpart, the gusy is willing to put national security at stake. As I said, democracy will only work when we have qualified and selfless people, not some politician who will use everything is his power to increase his influence and wealth



Shah01 said:


> I will say this again that armed forces are trained to fight and not to rule and think as well as their civilian equivalents.


Hi, 
If you bother to read my first post on this topic, you will know what i endorsed. 

The system will only work when you dont have chaudary and wadres as your leaders !

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## SBD-3

Give us a pie or our puppets are back!


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## Shah01

salarsikander said:


> Secondly the dynamics that we share, unless and until literacy improves and we have qualified politicians
> (not some those who have fake degrees) we will not be able to reap the benefits offered by Democracy. Right now the current ruling party has sugar mills, steel mills, theuir entire family in politics. I am not sure where in democracy that happens.


As I mentioned in my earlier post education is the key (hence I compared the budget of armed forces and education, for example here in UK almost £90 billion is spent on education to cater for almost 10-11 million students and half that £45 billion on armed forces). As long as we do not support education sector seriously we will still be discussing the same issues 50 years in future.
In UK almost all the MPs will be from very well off families (educated in private schools and from oxbridge mainly) with businesses etc. So it happens even in developed countries with the exception of the last point (entire family in politics).



salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> If you bother to read my first post on this topic, you will know what i endorsed.
> 
> The system will only work when you dont have chaudary and wadres as your leaders !



Yes did read your first post. And we are alluding to the same thing.... my argument is what concrete reforms the army has done while in power which has benefited the vast majority?
They could've reformed the land ownership laws almost 60 years ago but they didn't. This would've replaced the chaudary and waderas once and for all. These feudals are the worst thing happened to Pakistan and partly the Army is to blame.
The successive governments failed to reform laws, which on the other hand India did as soon as they got independence.


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## salarsikander

Shah01 said:


> Yes did read your first post. And we are alluding to the same thing.... my argument is what concrete reforms the army has done while in power which has benefited the vast majority?
> They could've reformed the land ownership laws almost 60 years ago but they didn't. This would've replaced the chaudary and waderas once and for all. These feudals are the worst thing happened to Pakistan and partly the Army is to blame.
> The successive governments failed to reform laws, which on the other hand India did as soon as they got independence.


The army was on;y called when the losers couldn't govern the country. I for one believe we shouldnt be ha;f and half, if its democracy then let it be (principally) if its not then hand it over to generals . simple. write or wrong that is entirely different matter. 

We have already seen how the last 5 years under the family politics of Bhutto zinda has done to country


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## GoldenRatio1618

CPEC & GAWADAR Port city should be under Pak Army control untill it become fully developed & functional economic hub for south Asia.


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## egodoc222

Excellent news!! 
Pakistan army is ideal candidate with enough knowledge of economics and administration...


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## Abingdonboy

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> If your premise as stated is true, then it follows that it is in the interests of the Army never to let such a chance materialize.


Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?


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## Stealth

cb4 said:


> As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?
> 
> Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?



tell your PM... What is the purpose of Govt.. if they are not capable to accountable anyone thn go home simple rather providing justifications and just put allegations and blame on others because in real Govt is Incompetent and core to corrupt...

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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> Secondly the dynamics that we share, unless and until literacy improves and we have qualified politicians
> (not some those who have fake degrees) we will not be able to reap the benefits offered by Democracy. Right now the current ruling party has sugar mills, steel mills, theuir entire family in politics. I am not sure where in democracy that happens. If we do not have a above of the mentioned point, we will just become another vassal state like Bangladesh( no offence to Bengali memebers)
> 
> And we have already seen the love story of Nawaz with his Indian counterpart, the gusy is willing to put national security at stake. As I said, democracy will only work when we have qualified and selfless people, not some politician who will use everything is his power to increase his influence and wealth


See, this is not a chicken and egg situation, as I have said leave your personal feelings for the current of crop of politcans to one side. Your complaint that there are no properly qualified civlian leaders is rather moot as how do you expect to get such qualified people into politics with the current situation? The present day system is not designed as a mertiocracy, the best are not rising to the top as the ebst likely never saw politcs as a viable option for them and if I'm being cynical I would say the Pak Army has designed the system in such a way.

No leaders are magically going to descend from the skies and be incorruptible or different overnight, there is a saying that one gets the leaders/government that one deserves. But this is not a call to give up on the entire process but to demand better. Calling in the army or relying on them to somehow correct the course of the nation is not going to fix anything, it may put a bandaid on the problems but will never address them. The system needs to evolve organically, there is no magical bullet and as bad as the leaders you may have may be they are what you have and you need to make it work, washing your hands of them and providing legitimacy to a coup is replacing one set of seld serving induviduals with another except this time they have a stronger PR strategy and are better at hiding their negatives and demand no accountability.


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## Spring Onion

A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?


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## salarsikander

Abingdonboy said:


> See, this is not a chicken and egg situation, as I have said leave your personal feelings for the current of crop of politcans to one side. Your complaint that there are no properly qualified civlian leaders is rather moot as how do you expect to get such qualified people into politics with the current situation? The present day system is not designed as a mertiocracy, the best are not rising to the top as the ebst likely never saw politcs as a viable option for them and if I'm being cynical I would say the Pak Army has designed the system in such a way.
> 
> No leaders are magically going to descend from the skies and be incorruptible or different overnight, there is a saying that one gets the leaders/government that one deserves. But this is not a call to give up on the entire process but to demand better. Calling in the army or relying on them to somehow correct the course of the nation is not going to fix anything, it may put a bandaid on the problems but will never address them. The system needs to evolve organically, there is no magical bullet and as bad as the leaders you may have may be they are what you have and you need to make it work, washing your hands of them and providing legitimacy to a coup is replacing one set of seld serving induviduals with another except this time they have a stronger PR strategy and are better at hiding their negatives and demand no accountability.



Again the situation doesn't allow us to. Last time a sucker politician was there, after killing his opponents he handed entire country to army when he couldnt handle east Pakistan and we had the result. The sucker wasnt ready to acknowledge the results and then these lot put entire blame on army !c


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## Shah01

salarsikander said:


> We have already seen how the last 5 years under the family politics of Bhutto zinda has done to country


Answered below. The stress here is to let the system evolve organically.


Abingdonboy said:


> The system needs to evolve organically, there is no magical bullet and as bad as the leaders you may have may be they are what you have and you need to make it work, washing your hands of them and providing legitimacy to a coup is replacing one set of seld serving induviduals with another except this time they have a stronger PR strategy and are better at hiding their negatives and demand no accountability.





salarsikander said:


> Again the situation doesn't allow us to. Last time a sucker politician was there, after killing his opponents he handed entire country to army when he could handle east Pakistan and we had the result. The sucker wasnt ready to acknowledge the results and then these lot put entire blame on army !c


This will be covered in the upcoming note by @WAJsal on history of Pakistan. My opinion is that army tried to find a military solution to a political problem (Gen Yahya made the right system for the elections but his call for military action was uncalled for).

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?



And what happened during the "drama" with Imran Khan (the head of second largest political party in Pakistan)? Please tell us who called on the army chief to negotiate with the protesters? And then lied in the parliament and got owned?

Seems Indians know more about our domestic politics than us? Or maybe your blind hatred towards our state and our armed forces ... forces you to take cheap shots in matters that don't concern you? That's one helluve OCD you folks suffer from.

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## salarsikander

Shah01 said:


> Answered below. The stress here is to let the system evolve organically.


And let the country fuk itself from the inside with a neighbor six times your size who hasnt digested your existence waiting for opportune moment to.....



Abingdonboy said:


> And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?


And in your esteemed why should he be behind
bars ?

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## VCheng

Spring Onion said:


> A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?



The very definition of Pakistan itself.

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## Spring Onion

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The very definition of Pakistan itself.



Civilian government in Balochistan is non-existent so there is no issue if such a huge project is protected by national army.


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## Abingdonboy

salarsikander said:


> Again the situation doesn't allow us to. Last time a sucker politician was there, after killing his opponents he handed entire country to army when he couldnt handle east Pakistan and we had the result. The sucker wasnt ready to acknowledge the results and then these lot put entire blame on army !c


Why does it have to be so extreme? You either get the best politcans in the world or they will lead you to destruction? Like I have said, you aren't going to get the ideal candidates overnight, they won't simply root out of the ground but the entire system needs to be given a chance over decades to flourish. Expecting perfect performance immediately is simply setting them up to fail and it seems to me that that Pak Army have created such a narrative. There is nothing wrong in being cynical towards the civlians but to generalise that they are all terrible and that is inherent to their "kind" creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. 



salarsikander said:


> And in your esteemed why should he be behind
> bars ?


I don't have an opnion on the matter but this was a case that was lodged agaisnt him and now he is living in Dubai.


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## firestorm77

Zarvan said:


> Most Generals are clean and I know I don't trust any one blindly Mr. I am the most suspicious person and no Musharraf doesn't have this worth all wrong.



http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/114758-How-Mr-clean-Musharraf-became-a-billionaire

http://www.dawn.com/news/1253863/retired-generals-sold-etpb-land-illegally

btw remember it was Mushy who allowed drone strikes & CIA to operate freely in Pakistan.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/12/musharraf-admits-permitting-drone-strikes


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## Shah01

salarsikander said:


> And let the country fuk itself from the inside with a neighbor six times your size who hasnt digested your existence waiting for opportune moment to.....


I talked about where army should help rather than overtaking the governance. These institutions include Judiciary, Police and Education. These three institutions will bring law and order, accountability and awareness. Army can also fund some research work in universities so that a new generation of scientists and engineers can be trained. This will give a chance to future generation in competing with the rest of the world (today science and technology has overtaken other fields and increasingly used in defence).
As long India is concerned we need to understand that we cannot compete with them and this disparity will only widen. The only way to match them is on educating the masses, setting up a knowledge based economy and having a stable governance.


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## VCheng

Spring Onion said:


> Civilian government in Balochistan is non-existent so there is no issue if such a huge project is protected by national army.



Protection is very different than management.


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## Spring Onion

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Protection is very different than management.



NOT Much. if their infrastructure development apparatus deliver in time than dead slow work of our civilian one then nothing wrong. We need to speed-up work on CPEC infra


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## VCheng

Spring Onion said:


> NOT Much. if their infrastructure development apparatus deliver in time than dead slow work of our civilian one then nothing wrong. We need to speed-up work on CPEC infra



Yes, the work needs to be speeded up, but it does not mean that those who are assigned protection duties also must administer and manage the entire edifice. However, it makes for a great tactic to seize control.

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## Nike

good or bad politician has it roots from the people they came from, if you want to get the best politician for your country you need to overhaul and upgrading the societies they will came from.

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## Spring Onion

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Yes, the work needs to be speeded up, but it does not mean that those who are assigned protection duties also must administer and manage the entire edifice. However, it makes for a great tactic to seize control.



why not they have road building organization that had executed far difficult infrastructure projects under civilian government rules. And it is not about entire edifice but infrastructure development. 

It is up to the government to accept the proposal or not


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## VCheng

Spring Onion said:


> why not they have road building organization that had executed far difficult infrastructure projects under civilian government rules. And it is not about entire edifice but infrastructure development.
> 
> It is up to the government to accept the proposal or not



Let's see what the government decides, or is forced to decide.



Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?



May be your basic premise as stated previously is sound?

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## WAJsal

Shah01 said:


> Answered below. The stress here is to let the system evolve organically.
> 
> 
> This will be covered in the upcoming note by @WAJsal on history of Pakistan. My opinion is that army tried to find a military solution to a political problem (Gen Yahya made the right system for the elections but his call for military action was uncalled for).


It certainly will be and in the coming parts we will also present a comprehensive solution to the stated problems...I think our good friend @Abingdonboy has missed my previous write-ups. Here you go:
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-political-history-part-1.407849/
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-political-history-part-2.419934/

Part 3 will take some time, can't give a timeline. The last part will be the most crucial part and will be the most exciting too for the readers.


Abingdonboy said:


> The system needs to evolve organically, there is no magical bullet and as bad as the leaders you may have may be they are what you have and you need to make it work, washing your hands of them and providing legitimacy to a coup is replacing one set of seld serving induviduals with another except this time they have a stronger PR strategy and are better at hiding their negatives and demand no accountability.


Well said and totally agreed with the point made. Proof is India itself, Pakistani folks here need to find the reasons behind the political stability in India. Is that not why they are ahead of us?

My take on the topic is quite a common opinion, since the project requires additional help from the army, build a consensus look to make it corruption-free. I think this is a sane route to take. This is the realistic voice in my head talking.
Ideally speaking i would look to strengthen my civilian government, through parliament, through stability and etc, etc. Since the current government looks to complete it's tenure regardless of what it's doing for the country, they are ready to make the sacrifices. I would personally make sure the army is not strong enough to question any move taken by the government. That is not by forcing the army, only way to do so is by making a Pakistan our forefathers dreamt of.
Or we could follow the Indian model, which would be ideal; though it would require some doing and a lot of effort, especially since the times have changed...



salarsikander said:


> And let the country fuk itself from the inside with a neighbor six times your size who hasnt digested your existence waiting for opportune moment to.....


I would rather take that route than let another dictator destroy this country to stay in power.



Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?


Dharna didn't have the armies support. It might have to do something with retired officers. IK seems like a genuine person, i don't think he'd be involved in something like that.


cb4 said:


> As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?
> 
> Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
> DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?


You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.

@That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The very definition of Pakistan itself.


Highly incorrect statement and very insulting to our founding fathers. What was the logic behind this post? feeling embarrassed and sad.

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## notorious_eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see why you need to have visited Pakistan to be able to offer (possible) prescriptions. There is nothing unique about Pakistan or its people, they have the same basic desires, functions and cognitive abilities as any other member of the human race. What is unique to Pakistan is its history and specific model of governance over the past 70 years.



If you have not visited the country, how would you know what the reality is on the ground? Pakistan is not India, and India is not Pakistan. Average Pakistani is starved off good governance and deliverance by the State. The Average Pakistani has lost faith in civilian institutions and only trusts the Army because he can see that they are the only ones going above and beyond to deliver results for the common folk. 



Abingdonboy said:


> I am still failing to understand why in a nation of 200 million people just 100 or so (the very top brass of the PA) at any one time can be considered qualified to run the country. What is it in the Pak Mil training that makes these men so special? Nothing other than they are the ones with the guns (which they have used to cease all the power/resources).



It's the mismatch in intellect. While the Army is a professional institution which promotes talent within, Pakistan's Political Parties are not institutions but family built mafias which rely on nepotism, patronage and corruption to cement its rank. Nawaz Sharif and Zardari run their parties like King's and are deeply involved in looting the meagre resources of the country. Nawaz Sharif first became PM in 1990 when Raheel Sharif was probably a Major in the Army, its 2016 now and Nawaz Sharif is again the PM but it appears he hasn't learned squat. He is still the same corrupt filthy swine that he was in 1990. Compare his intellect with Raheel Sharif who has always been an overachiever, you will see the difference between the Army and our Political Institutions. It's not the guns, but deliverance that has allowed PA to remain the most popular institution in Pakistan. 



Abingdonboy said:


> Democracy is not an instant product, it needs to be treated like a fragile flower intially, constantly watered and taken care of so that its roots can grow deeper and deeper and then eventually it can be fully self sufficent and strong in its own right.



True, but seriously PPP and PML-N have been in politics for the past 40 years and they still haven't learned. What makes you think they will start learning now? 



Abingdonboy said:


> It is simply inconceviable that the Pakistan Army will outperform civlian elected governements in the long run- they just need to be given the chance.



8 years and counting, 11 years from 1988 to 1999. That's long enough for the politicians to learn in the past 3 deades. 



Abingdonboy said:


> Right now the system as it is will attract the corrupt and those out to loot whilst the sun is shining because the shadow of the PA is looming and thus the incentive is to take take take whilst you can and perhaps know that the PA is always there to pick up the slack. *But if you establish a real democracy *where the military works for the civlians then the entire dynamic will change, the civlians should be put in a postion to sink or swim on their own, as it stands dual power centres are tripping over themselves and making a mess of the entire show.



Easier said than done. Until the politicians pick up the slack and start delivering, Pakistani people will always look towards the Army as the saviour. If the politicians want to permanently shut the Army out of politics, they need to start delivering. Case in point, Erdogan in Turkey.

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## Edevelop

Stealth said:


> tell your PM... What is the purpose of Govt.. if they are not capable to accountable anyone thn go home simple rather providing justifications and just put allegations and blame on others because in real Govt is Incompetent and core to corrupt...





WAJsal said:


> You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.
> 
> @That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...




What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?

How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?

'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.

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## SBD-3

cb4 said:


> What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?
> 
> How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?
> 
> 'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.


Its funny but in such scenario his GB will go straight to China and he will enjoy the life Xinjiang style

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## VCheng

WAJsal said:


> Highly incorrect statement and very insulting to our founding fathers. What was the logic behind this post? feeling embarrassed and sad.



Sir, Pakistan is a show run by the Army, and for the Army, the present thread topic included. What is incorrect or insulting in saying that? Do you think that acting illegally and usurping power honors the memory of the founding fathers any better?


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## Hiptullha

WAJsal said:


> Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government



Incompetence?  It's fear of reprecussions at the hands of the army which is stopping the government from probing army corruption.
It certainly doesn't help that the average Pakistani citizen would cheer on the army if it decided to punish and dismantle the government for 'unnecessary' involvement in army affairs.


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## That Guy

[QUOTE="WAJsal, post: 8261383, member: 161741"
You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.

@That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...[/QUOTE]
@cb4 
What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.

Take the US, did you know that for decades the Pentagon was simply not audited? No one knew where hundreds of billions of dollars went, and to this day, military officials continue to resist future audits.

Not to say that a stronger civilian government can't pressure the military for more transparency, it can, but Pakistan's government is nowhere near that level yet. It will take at least a few more governments for Pakistan to have truly effective civilian government, that can challenge the military's supremacy.

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## Edevelop

That Guy said:


> What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.
> 
> Take the US, did you know that for decades the Pentagon was simply not audited? No one knew where hundreds of billions of dollars went, and to this day, military officials continue to resist future audits.
> 
> Not to say that a stronger civilian government can't pressure the military for more transparency, it can, but Pakistan's government is nowhere near that level yet. It will take at least a few more governments for Pakistan to have truly effective civilian government, that can challenge the military's supremacy.



Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.

CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.

Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.

Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.

They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey


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## That Guy

cb4 said:


> Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.


That's a myth. The government never had control over foreign policy, if it did, the NDMA would have passed, which it didn't.

Though, I will agree that IK and TUQ made the government weaker than necessary. I was one of the biggest mistakes that IK could have made.



> CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.


The military was involved since the beginning. The Chinese didn't go to Nawaz Sharif, they went to Raheel Sharif to guarantee security for their personnel. As for planning, there have been plans since before 2006, when we first heard about Gwadar's true potential.

But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.



> Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.


Geo? It's still around, it didn't get closed down at all. In fact, it's still the most popular news channel in Pakistan.

Military meddling was expected. When you've been in power for so long, it is difficult to simply let it go. Civilian incompetence has (in some ways) forced the military to pressure the government into action.

Just like the military had to pressure the government into owning ZeA, and the Karachi operations, it has had to once again pressure the government into owning the operation in Punjab. These are operations that the government should never have had to be pressured into, they should have owned up to them willingly, yet incompetence and self-service made the military step in.



> Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.


I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.

This is why Erdogan is known as a strong-man, with accusations that he's acting like a dictator.



> They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey


I don't know if they've earned the hearts of the lower class, simply because they continue to tax the poor and middle class, and subsidize corporate entities.

Anyway, that's my take on the matter. It's up to you to believe what you want. Good luck.


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## ito

To much interference in CPEC will just increasing the political risk thereby undermining the viability of the project. Now, I am not sure of the effects of CPEC on Pakistanis economy. CPEC is a classical case on how to spoil everything when you have a great treasure before


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## notorious_eagle

That Guy said:


> But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.



The Government has only itself to blame for making a mockery of CPEC. First, the Government for the longest time did not take the Parliament on board in regards. Not a single agreement or plans shared with the Opposition or smaller Provinces. While the CM of Punjab was happily invited to China, other CM's were not even extended an invitation to travel with the PM to conduct CPEC negotiations. Second, PML-N staying true to its core has already started engaging in massive corruption in CPEC Projects. The first CPEC project worth $1.9 billion has been awarded to Saif Ur Rehman, Nawaz Sharif's front man. Go figure. 

And you're saying that the Opposition is to blame for CPEC. 



That Guy said:


> I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.



You're forgetting the most important ingredient in Erdogan's success, and that is deliverance of governance and economic growth. Turkish Real Economy grew by 64% between 2002 and 2012. Respect is earned with performance, not begged for. This is something our politicians need to learn.

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## mingle

notorious_eagle said:


> The Government has only itself to blame for making a mockery of CPEC. First, the Government for the longest time did not take the Parliament on board in regards. Not a single agreement or plans shared with the Opposition or smaller Provinces. While the CM of Punjab was happily invited to China, other CM's were not even extended an invitation to travel with the PM to conduct CPEC negotiations. Second, PML-N staying true to its core has already started engaging in massive corruption in CPEC Projects. The first CPEC project worth $1.9 billion has been awarded to Saif Ur Rehman, Nawaz Sharif's front man. Go figure.
> 
> And you're saying that the Opposition is to blame for CPEC.
> 
> 
> 
> You're forgetting the most important ingredient in Erdogan's success, and that is deliverance of governance and economic growth. Turkish Real Economy grew by 64% between 2002 and 2012. Respect is earned with performance, not begged for. This is something our politicians need to learn.


Only thing politicians learned is offshore .

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## WAJsal

cb4 said:


> What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?


Do we not have democracy in action? what are you on about? it's the duty of civilian government to strengthen democracy, don't take dictations. Look to evolve, you have the majorities support. But the fact remains civilian governments do not care much about democracy, just like they don't give a shit about democracy in their parties...They look to finish their tenures.


cb4 said:


> How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?


Army was made a stake-holder by NS himself. If Army was asked to supervise this project and provide security for it, this was bound to happen. And NS being scared of saying 'no' will obviously agree to the suggestions made by the army.
Weak government results in stronger Establishment.


cb4 said:


> 'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.


Your was meant to point at NS. Any sane government would never let itself be dictated. And please do not take cheap shots, it is our government. With all it's incompetence and stupidity it is still our government. Please don't take cheap shots.


That Guy said:


> What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.


Exactly my point. But he seems not to accept the incompetence of civilian government in this regard. One can't blame the army for anything(it's basically a culture here). What exactly has civilian government done to strengthen democracy or the say the system? I would blame the civilian government more here.


Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sir, Pakistan is a show run by the Army, and for the Army, the present thread topic included. What is incorrect or insulting in saying that? Do you think that acting illegally and usurping power honors the memory of the founding fathers any better?


I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.
Quoted Post:
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project. Pakistan is being run by an incompetent civilian government, not the Army. Army will look to keep it self strong. That is for the civilian government to minimize its role.



Hiptullha said:


> It certainly doesn't help that the average Pakistani citizen would cheer on the army if it decided to punish and dismantle the government for 'unnecessary' involvement in army affairs.


Army falls under the government. I say move to army the day we clean our political system, everything in the army should be audited. Everyone should be audited and it should all be done under the civilian government. Ideally speaking.



SBD-3 said:


> Its funny but in such scenario his GB will go straight to China and he will enjoy the life Xinjiang style


Cheap shots will only result in disappointment. Since you never cared to read my post, or maybe you had a tough time understanding it. I have agreed with points made by @cb4 , i am the biggest supporter of CPEC. I have always been. Please do not get confused here. 
One should accept that stronger Establishment only means that the civilian government is weak and incompetent. Maybe the truth is too hard to swallow. Ideally the army should never talk about administration in any project, maybe they realise the incompetence of the federal government and wish to stomp their authority. 
PS: Our PM will accept to this demand without much thinking. 


notorious_eagle said:


> It's the mismatch in intellect. While the Army is a professional institution which promotes talent within, Pakistan's Political Parties are not institutions but family built mafias which rely on nepotism, patronage and corruption to cement its rank. Nawaz Sharif and Zardari run their parties like King's and are deeply involved in looting the meagre resources of the country. Nawaz Sharif first became PM in 1990 when Raheel Sharif was probably a Major in the Army, its 2016 now and Nawaz Sharif is again the PM but it appears he hasn't learned squat. He is still the same corrupt filthy swine that he was in 1990. Compare his intellect with Raheel Sharif who has always been an overachiever, you will see the difference between the Army and our Political Institutions. It's not the guns, but deliverance that has allowed PA to remain the most popular institution in Pakistan


A better term to describe these political mafias in power would be: civilian dictators. As long as we have these mafias around don't expect the system to get any better. In fact they are a threat to the system. 
@Abingdonboy , to get the system right over time you need to have right people in the right place. That is what is lacking. In some cases you don't require time to for the system to evolve you have the right people who correct the system and overcome the flaws. Army lobby being stronger only means that the civilian government doesn't wish to bring the army under the civilian government. We literally have two governments running Pakistan most of the time. We have got the Americans negotiating with the Army rather than talking to the civilian government. All in all one would blame the incompetence of civilian government here, they have the majority behind them. Our political system is too incompetent to curb out this culture from the Army. All in all no one is any better.

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## SBD-3

WAJsal said:


> Cheap shots will only result in disappointment. Since you never cared to read my post, or maybe you had a tough time understanding it. I have agreed with points made by @cb4 , i am the biggest supporter of CPEC. I have always been. Please do not get confused here.
> One should accept that *stronger Establishment only means that the civilian government is weak and incompetent*. Maybe the truth is too hard to swallow. Ideally the army should never talk about administration in any project, maybe they realise the incompetence of the federal government and wish to stomp their authority.
> PS: Our PM will accept to this demand without much thinking.


It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics. It also means that Establishment uses the shoulder of government for all non-popular decision but rushes to grab all the popular hu-haw. They use Government's shoulder in KSA issue but sabotage the opportunity to broaden relationships with Iran. Don't you guys know that people see all this?
I don't know what was cheap about the argument? was it the hypothetical scenario or something else?


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## Bratva

SBD-3 said:


> It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics. It also means that Establishment uses the shoulder of government for all non-popular decision but rushes to grab all the popular hu-haw. They use Government's shoulder in KSA issue but sabotage the opportunity to broaden relationships with Iran. Don't you guys know that people see all this?
> I don't know what was cheap about the argument? was it the hypothetical scenario or something else?



Why government is so indecisive in every matter which makes army to make a move ? Give me one example from recent past where Nawaz sharif took a proactive approach and defended Pakistan. Kal Bhuhsan Yadav ? Creating Pakistani narrative all over the world through information and foreign ministry? What is the duty of pervaiz rasheed ? Defend nawaz sharif and PML-N or defend Pakistan all over the world ? 

If you cant take bold actions then expect incursions in your dominion by the one's who wants decisive actions on every national security matter

A recent example is of CPEC eastern vs Western route. How much fuss and uproar was created on it. The truth is Noon wants western corridor on priority and they should have defended this decision with proper facts and figures. How much factual replies we seen from NOON except rehtorics, empty promises on eastern route. This is kind of indecisiveness and procrastination that screws so called civilian and democratic government.

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## saiyan0321

The thing us that the civilian govts both federal and provincial have been constantly bickering on who wants a bigger slice of the pie and their Egis have only harmed cpec. This has promoted the Army to come forward and make this demand and this remand highlights the incompetence and weak nature of our civilian institutions. Its true that Pakistan never had a long democratic period but its been democracy for 8 years now and we are civilian institutions getting weaker. Its not the Armys fault. Its the federal govts that does not strengthen its institution to create a power nexus of control who h eventually places the army under govt.. 

We got army doing development in FATA, we have military courts for terrorists bcz the govt accepted that they cannot punish terrorists. They created military courts rather than create free and fair and speedy justice institutional courts under the govt. The army started anti-corruption drive through rangers and the govt allowed them which means the govt accepted that they cannot control corruption. Rather than strenghtening NAB.. The govt did by elections under army which means they accepted that they cannot combat nor stop rigging and rather than strengthening ECP they did this. The army asked for anti-terror operation in Karachi and all over Pakistan and the givt agreed which means that rather than strengthening the police system or law enforcement you bring in the army. The govt allows army to do developments in FATA rather than take initiative and do it themselves.. Its not the armys fault here. 

The govt has only itself to blame vcz they have cobtinouaky weakened institutions rather than strengthening them. They have made themselves weak and vuberable. If the govt was strong, if they were doing all of this, proactive then the army would feel no need to interfere. The thing is that the people are this. They see that the army cones in picks up the govts slack which accounts to the unprecedented fame of the army and it's chief. If the govt was strong and proactive the people would look at them. A building collapses and we have army coming in to save the people. The govt is nowhere to be seen. Any calamity that comes , the Army stands the most proactive institution and the govt does jack. Weakness of the civilian govt after 8 years going on nine can no longer be blamed on the army.

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## Edevelop

That Guy said:


> That's a myth. The government never had control over foreign policy, if it did, the NDMA would have passed, which it didn't.
> 
> Though, I will agree that IK and TUQ made the government weaker than necessary. I was one of the biggest mistakes that IK could have made.



Did it ? Back in 2007, the period when Musharraf got booted out and Judiciary's movement was at it's peek, the 2008 federal elections was considered purely democratic and while most people including myself would agree the PPP government was truly corrupt and incompetent during its term, the momentum for the most part was on their side.

Kiyani and rest of the military had absolutely no control over any foreign policy and to prove my point, the military which has a history of siding with Saudis, couldn't do much to stop Zardari from siding with Iran and writing letters to Americans.



That Guy said:


> The military was involved since the beginning. The Chinese didn't go to Nawaz Sharif, they went to Raheel Sharif to guarantee security for their personnel. As for planning, there have been plans since before 2006, when we first heard about Gwadar's true potential.
> 
> But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.



There are differences between security perimeters and complexity of Baluchistan and other provinces so I'm not surprised why Chinese would approach Raheel.

Yes its true there was some plans back in 2006, but lets be honest that CPEC had just 1 motorway Line, 1 railway Line, and development of Gwadar Port.

The CPEC under Nawaz has 4 motorway Lines, 4 railway Lines, energy projects of coal, wind, gas, solar, and hydel, and industrial zones across all provinces and territories.

And its not like this is the only thing that has happened. A gas deal has been reached with Turkmenistan, Qatar, and Russia, and electricity deal with Tajikistan and Iran. Another regional connectivity by the name CAREC, Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation was launched during Nawaz's government back in 1997 and its once again he is credited for implementation.




That Guy said:


> Geo? It's still around, it didn't get closed down at all. In fact, it's still the most popular news channel in Pakistan.
> 
> Military meddling was expected. When you've been in power for so long, it is difficult to simply let it go. Civilian incompetence has (in some ways) forced the military to pressure the government into action.
> 
> Just like the military had to pressure the government into owning ZeA, and the Karachi operations, it has had to once again pressure the government into owning the operation in Punjab. These are operations that the government should never have had to be pressured into, they should have owned up to them willingly, yet incompetence and self-service made the military step in.



I said this in the past context and my point is it did happen at some point. I don't agree its the most popular channel but it is debatable.

The government is far from perfect but again some blame also lies with the military as we all know they have been playing the good and bad cop games. They are just lucky they got a guy like Raheel firm in his policy to change their institution's perception.



That Guy said:


> I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.
> 
> This is why Erdogan is known as a strong-man, with accusations that he's acting like a dictator.



You can't compare Turkey with Pakistan. Maybe you are not aware, the political dynamics are totally different. There it was Secular vs Islam with rich and military being Secular and poor being Muslim. In Pakistan, the political parties, military, and the people have no identity and that said you can't use any motive.

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## VCheng

WAJsal said:


> I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.
> Quoted Post:
> "A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
> reply:
> "The very definition of Pakistan."
> 
> So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project. Pakistan is being run by an incompetent civilian government, not the Army. Army will look to keep it self strong. That is for the civilian government to minimize its role.



Sir, for the second time, you fail to explain what is it that you find insulting in my posts that you quote. You have you opinion and I have mine. My views, as stated above, have plenty to support them.


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## Edevelop

WAJsal said:


> Do we not have democracy in action? what are you on about? it's the duty of civilian government to strengthen democracy, don't take dictations. Look to evolve, you have the majorities support. But the fact remains civilian governments do not care much about democracy, just like they don't give a shit about democracy in their parties...They look to finish their tenures.



That still doesn't answer my question. If you are not going to let democracy run, how can you evolve with time ? In two successive democratic transitions, if you can't see the difference in governance between PPP and PML-N, there is seriously something wrong with you, maybe its just your personal ego.



WAJsal said:


> Army was made a stake-holder by NS himself. If Army was asked to supervise this project and provide security for it, this was bound to happen. And NS being scared of saying 'no' will obviously agree to the suggestions made by the army.
> Weak government results in stronger Establishment.



Lets not blow this out of proportion. Its security in Balochistan... know the difference between that and other provinces.

A weak government results because of hostile, immature opposition. People like Imran take salaries but don't attend assembly sessions and his plans to hit the road to take on rigging has completely made the government miserable. No democracy can work until ISI's political cell is demolished for good. There is always a reason for General Pasha's name to come up and a guy like TUQ coming of out the blue and spending millions in his useless campaign is no secret.



WAJsal said:


> Your was meant to point at NS. Any sane government would never let itself be dictated. And please do not take cheap shots, it is our government. With all it's incompetence and stupidity it is still our government. Please don't take cheap shots.



Pakistanis always have something to say. If you get dictated, you are a looser. But if you don't let anyone dictate you, you become a dictator and undemocratic : )

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## WAJsal

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sir, for the second time, you fail to explain what is it that you find insulting in my posts that you quote. You have you opinion and I have mine. My views, as stated above, have plenty to support them.


First line of my post:


WAJsal said:


> I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.



Let me try to put it in simpler words...
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project.

Your post suggested what exactly? quite clear you meant to say 'Pakistan was a project of the Army', also add 'administrated by the army' too. Or please prove me wrong. What exactly did you post mean? 
Heading towards a dead end. It's best to accept one's mistakes at times. 



SBD-3 said:


> It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics.


You have the support of the majority, you are in power. This things only reflect the incompetence of civilian governments. If factions within the army is involved in such activity, what action has the federal government taken against them? or can it even take any action against them? By using the parliament the government can easily bring the army under it's rule. 
PS: one can even try and be Amir al-Mu'minin if he is in power. 
The government has the support of the majority, only reason why it will never look to stand up to the establishment is because it wishes to complete it's tenure. It doesn't give a crap about democracy, or the system to be more exact. 


cb4 said:


> If you are not going to let democracy run, how can you evolve with time ?


So Pakistan is not under Democratic rule? if there are forces working to derail the system what measures have the government taken against these forces? How are they not letting democracy run? Whose responsibility is it to run democracy? Just need to ask yourself, no need to answer these questions. 
All in all establishment working against you only reflects the incompetence of federal government. A powerful government would never let the Army dictate anything. 


cb4 said:


> In two successive democratic transitions, if you can't see the difference in governance between PPP and PML-N, there is seriously something wrong with you, maybe its just your personal ego.


What is democratic about PPP and PMLN? I would like to use the term 'civilian dictators' here. I can't wait for Princess Maryam to take over her father. Master Bilawal has already done that. Pardon me please, i love these moments.



cb4 said:


> A weak government results because of hostile, immature opposition.


That only highlights the incompetence of the federal government. A strong government will always keep it's opposition in check, if it can't it simply shows the governments incompetence. Lets take current situation for example, how hard is to listen to the opposition? why can't the opposition be consulted regarding the TOR's of the commission. Or even when the Panama Papers were leaked out, the government gave the opportunity to the opposition.


cb4 said:


> No democracy can work until ISI's political cell is demolished for good. There is always a reason for General Pasha's name to come up and a guy like TUQ coming of out the blue and spending millions in his useless campaign is no secret.


Thank you for further highlighting the incompetence of civilian government. Pray do tell whose job is it exactly to demolish this political wing? Whose job is it to keep the army in check? Current government doesn't care and will continue to be dictated looking to finish it's tenure. 



cb4 said:


> Pakistanis always have something to say. If you get dictated, you are a looser. But if you don't let anyone dictate you, you become a dictator and undemocratic : )


And if i listen to your opinion and you listen to mine and we continue to have a sane argument, like all arguments it will reach to it's end...it's pretty democratic. 
The problem with Nawaz is that he is too scared to make a stand, lets face it.


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## SBD-3

WAJsal said:


> You have the support of the majority, you are in power. This things only reflect the incompetence of civilian governments. If factions within the army is involved in such activity, what action has the federal government taken against them? or can it even take any action against them? By using the parliament the government can easily bring the army under it's rule.
> PS: one can even try and be Amir al-Mu'minin if he is in power.
> The government has the support of the majority, only reason why it will never look to stand up to the establishment is because it wishes to complete it's tenure. It doesn't give a crap about democracy, or the system to be more exact.


 who are you trying to fool here? The ones who had the gun have always been all over those who had the majority. This is the case from 1948 to date starting from the men with gun denying Quaid's orders to attack Kashmir.

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## Edevelop

WAJsal said:


> So Pakistan is not under Democratic rule? if there are forces working to derail the system what measures have the government taken against these forces? How are they not letting democracy run? Whose responsibility is it to run democracy? Just need to ask yourself, no need to answer these questions.
> All in all establishment working against you only reflects the incompetence of federal government. A powerful government would never let the Army dictate anything.



When you have politicians like Sheikh Rasheed, Imran Khan, Chaudharies, and Altaf Hussain who sat in the laps of Musharraf and today coming on media spreading lies and waging cold wars, who needs to control military when they fit perfectly part of their agenda ?

Maybe you forgot the day when TUQ and Imran attacked PTV, gates of Parliament, and disturbed the lives of people of twin cities. Why do these politicians need democracy when the military was just standing by them not following the orders of government ?



WAJsal said:


> What is democratic about PPP and PMLN? I would like to use the term 'civilian dictators' here. I can't wait for Princess Maryam to take over her father. Master Bilawal has already done that. Pardon me please, i love these moments.



'Civilian dictators' elected by people of Pakistan... Anything else ?




WAJsal said:


> That only highlights the incompetence of the federal government. A strong government will always keep it's opposition in check, if it can't it simply shows the governments incompetence. Lets take current situation for example, how hard is to listen to the opposition? why can't the opposition be consulted regarding the TOR's of the commission. Or even when the Panama Papers were leaked out, the government gave the opportunity to the opposition.



Listen to opposition who don't show up in assembly sessions ?

How about not backtracking Judical commission's verdicts agreed and signed by opposition ?



WAJsal said:


> Current government doesn't care and will continue to be dictated looking to finish it's tenure.



Why not finish their tenure ? Its their right to complete 5 years and they have done a fabulous job improving economy and practically spending on development. Some people shouldn't be scared of next elections.

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## VCheng

WAJsal said:


> Let me try to put it in simpler words...
> "A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
> reply:
> "The very definition of Pakistan."
> 
> So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project.
> 
> Your post suggested what exactly? quite clear you meant to say 'Pakistan was a project of the Army', also add 'administrated by the army' too. Or please prove me wrong. What exactly did you post mean?
> Heading towards a dead end. It's best to accept one's mistakes at times.



Sir, it is quite clear who controls Pakistan. I have said nothing that is too far from that reality. There is nothing wrong or insulting in recognizing the state of affairs in Paksitan as it exists. What the founding fathers created died in 1971. What remains is run by the Army, for the Army. This will be my last post on this aspect. Peace!


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## That Guy

cb4 said:


> Did it ? Back in 2007, the period when Musharraf got booted out and Judiciary's movement was at it's peek, the 2008 federal elections was considered purely democratic and while most people including myself would agree the PPP government was truly corrupt and incompetent during its term, the momentum for the most part was on their side.


Not really, at that point, Musharraf was deeply unpopular within the military as well. As many within the military accused him of ruining the organization's image.



> Kiyani and rest of the military had absolutely no control over any foreign policy and to prove my point, the military which has a history of siding with Saudis, couldn't do much to stop Zardari from siding with Iran and writing letters to Americans.


Keyani deliberately stayed out of politics to rebuild the army's image, but that doesn't mean the army didn't have control over foreign policy. Writing a few letters and standing with Iran doesn't mean that Zardari was in control of foreign policy, it just means that he tried to wrest it out of military hands, and failed.

The fact that no one took Zardari's efforts at foreign policy serious is evidence of that. While Zardari was talking with Iran, Keyani was in KSA reassuring them of Pakistan's commitments.

While Keyani stayed out of politics, he did not let this one thing out of the army's control. 



> There are differences between security perimeters and complexity of Baluchistan and other provinces so I'm not surprised why Chinese would approach Raheel.


Not just that, but Raheel is still absolutely in control of the security establishment, why would the Chinese ever go to the government? The Chinese went to NS only as a formality, but let's be honest, the Chinese knew who was really in control.



> Yes its true there was some plans back in 2006, but lets be honest that CPEC had just 1 motorway Line, 1 railway Line, and development of Gwadar Port.


Just to clarify, back then, it was known as the Gwadar mega port city project. CPEC actually came as a surprise to many Pakistanis, even the government, as no one was actually expecting the $46 billion figure. From what I've read, NS was expecting at most $10 billion over 5 years, not $46 billion in about 4.



> The CPEC under Nawaz has 4 motorway Lines, 4 railway Lines, energy projects of coal, wind, gas, solar, and hydel, and industrial zones across all provinces and territories.


On the other hand, Nawaz did make one major mistake: he didn't start with the western route first. Thankfully, that mistake has been rectified, and final approval has been given for it. Having said that, the fact that he started with the much less vital eastern route smells of political interference, and corruption, even you can't deny that.



> And its not like this is the only thing that has happened. A gas deal has been reached with Turkmenistan, Qatar, and Russia, and electricity deal with Tajikistan and Iran. Another regional connectivity by the name CAREC, Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation was launched during Nawaz's government back in 1997 and its once again he is credited for implementation.


On the other hand, the gas deal that was initially signed with Qatar was extremely bad, and was only renegotiated, when Nawaz was pressured by the opposition to drop the original deal.

Not to mention that Nawaz is still hesitant to implement the IP pipeline, which would dramatically help Pakistan's energy security for decades to come.



> I said this in the past context and my point is it did happen at some point. I don't agree its the most popular channel but it is debatable.


Fair enough.



> The government is far from perfect but again some blame also lies with the military as we all know they have been playing the good and bad cop games. They are just lucky they got a guy like Raheel firm in his policy to change their institution's perception.


I actually agree with this, but I would actually be far harsher and say a good amount of the fault is with the military, not just a little bit.



> You can't compare Turkey with Pakistan. Maybe you are not aware, the political dynamics are totally different. There it was Secular vs Islam with rich and military being Secular and poor being Muslim. In Pakistan, the political parties, military, and the people have no identity and that said you can't use any motive.


The principle is the same, so the comparison stands. The political balance in Turkey was similar to Pakistan, where the military had massive influence, while the civilian government and judiciary was almost completely subservient.



WAJsal said:


> Exactly my point. But he seems not to accept the incompetence of civilian government in this regard. One can't blame the army for anything(it's basically a culture here). What exactly has civilian government done to strengthen democracy or the say the system? I would blame the civilian government more here.


I would argue that the army also shares quite a bit of the blame, as "ambitious" generals have always interfered in the democratic process far too many times.


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## SBD-3

That Guy said:


> On the other hand, Nawaz did make one major mistake: he didn't start with the western route first. Thankfully, that mistake has been rectified, and final approval has been given for it. Having said that, the fact that he started with the much less vital eastern route smells of political interference, and corruption, even you can't deny that.


Eastern route is less vital? Seriously? Can you please tell me the location of major Chinese investments? Can you tell me the location of current available infrastructure which can handle mass transit? I just don't understand how people make such sweeping statements. On western route, you need everything to build from scratch, no industrial base, no industrial labor. Have you ever wondered why Chinese invested even in Sindh and not the KPK? economically eastern route was the route which could be activated in minimal time with minimal spending. Western route would take at least 4-5 years at least to operationalize because there's no high grade highways that can carry the continuous load of heavy traffic. Like the D I khan motorway which is now approved. It has started, but its a long haul.


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## That Guy

SBD-3 said:


> Eastern route is less vital? Seriously? Can you please tell me the location of major Chinese investments?


Considering that there is more poverty in the western route, it would create far more tens of thousands of jobs, thus the western route is far more vital. Perhaps I should have clarified, I meant this in local level investment, not the trade route itself. Creating jobs in far more impoverished areas is a better idea than creating them in Punjab, especially since the insurgency is mainly in the west of the country. You find and give jobs to people, they'll be less likely to join or help the insurgency.



> Can you tell me the location of current available infrastructure which can handle mass transit? I just don't understand how people make such sweeping statements. On western route, you need everything to build from scratch, no industrial base, no industrial labor. Have you ever wondered why Chinese invested even in Sindh and not the KPK?* economically eastern route was the route which could be activated in minimal time with minimal spending*. Western route would take at least 4-5 years at least to operationalize because there's no high grade highways that can carry the continuous load of heavy traffic. Like the D I khan motorway which is now approved. It has started, but its a long haul.


Except for the fact that the eastern route has taken about 94% of the funding, not due to Chinese preference, but due to NS playing politics.

Funny thing is, this comment only proves me right.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

cb4 said:


> Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.
> 
> CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.
> 
> Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.
> 
> Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.
> 
> They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey



There is no alternative to a strong elected government under a charismatic leader. Turkish people learnt it after paying heavy prices to the rules by the tutelage (Secular elites, Army etc.). Military shouldn't conduct a coup for it costs the national defense most as the discipline and fighting capability get decimated. There's no harm in relegating some duties like COIN to the Army. If the Paks think General Sharif will be a competent national leader then they should encourage him to get into politics after retirement and run for the highest office.

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## Zaneesh852

That Guy said:


> Considering that there is more poverty in the western route, it would create far more tens of thousands of jobs, thus the western route is far more vital. Perhaps I should have clarified, I meant this in local level investment, not the trade route itself. Creating jobs in far more impoverished areas is a better idea than creating them in Punjab, especially since the insurgency is mainly in the west of the country. You find and give jobs to people, they'll be less likely to join or help the insurgency.


I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif

With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.


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## WAJsal

SBD-3 said:


> who are you trying to fool here? The ones who had the gun have always been all over those who had the majority. This is the case from 1948 to date starting from the men with gun denying Quaid's orders to attack Kashmir.


Who are you trying to fool here? Who is in power? who is taking dictations?  Stop complaining about the problem, look to solve it. 
We have never had a strong civilian government who could challenge the establishment, they will sacrifice what needs to be done to stay in power. Just like Nawaz Sharif will let the army dictate foreign policy and important issues. Ideally he should not take any dictation and take all actions himself. And if the army is unhappy and we see another coup, this time the majority will be behind the civilian government. Why doesn't the civilian government do something about Armies superiority? Easy to answer: it's because they don't give a shit about improving or strengthening the system. 


cb4 said:


> When you have politicians like Sheikh Rasheed, Imran Khan, Chaudharies, and Altaf Hussain who sat in the laps of Musharraf and today coming on media spreading lies and waging cold wars, who needs to control military when they fit perfectly part of their agenda ?


The opposition can never be blamed in this case. NS himself has taken help from Establishment before. My point is what is he doing to curb Armies power? lol, he is not doing anything. 
PS: NS was a product of his Siyasi Father Zia-ul-haq. 


cb4 said:


> Why do these politicians need democracy when the military was just standing by them not following the orders of government ?


And did the government take any action agaisnt these people or the army for not listening to it? Why are you complaing for? You are in power. 


cb4 said:


> 'Civilian dictators' elected by people of Pakistan... Anything else ?


You missed my point. What exactly is democratic about these people that you expect them to run a democracy. 
PS: even the dictators did a referendum, and an election from time to time. They liked to call themselves elected too. Anything else? 


cb4 said:


> Listen to opposition who don't show up in assembly sessions ?


I bet IK has been to the assembly more than Nawaz Shairf has been to it. I bet NS has been to London for medical check-ups more than he has been to the assembly.  Government doesn't give any significance to the assembly. And in this case government should listen to the opposition. And you complain why there is a political instability. The government creates this instability. 


cb4 said:


> Why not finish their tenure ? Its their right to complete 5 years and they have done a fabulous job improving economy and practically spending on development. Some people shouldn't be scared of next elections.


Do you know the meaning of 'Fabulous'? no need to be blinded in love. Do you want me to get an experts opinion here? come on, stop being so blinded in love. 

Back too the point: don't twist and turn, stick to the topic. What exactly is the government doing to bring army under its rule? and in this case NS will be too scared to think twice. debate on this, rather than twisting and turning. The only reason why this government will continue taking dictation is because it is too scared of standing up to the military establishment. And i have got two PMLN supporters crying about military dictation, while they fail to realize it's their party taking dictation and it's their party that is not standing up to the Army.



That Guy said:


> I would argue that the army also shares quite a bit of the blame, as "ambitious" generals have always interfered in the democratic process far too many times.


Quite obvious. In recent times the civilian government has done nothing to address the issue.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sir, it is quite clear who controls Pakistan. I have said nothing that is too far from that reality. There is nothing wrong or insulting in recognizing the state of affairs in Paksitan as it exists. What the founding fathers created died in 1971. What remains is run by the Army, for the Army. This will be my last post on this aspect. Peace!


(No need to further continue this debate)
Good to see you jumping to 1971. And i thought maybe your version of the history was different than mine. I mean how can, 'Pakistan be a project of the Army'? 
PS: a piece of advice from a friend...I have said this before too, there is no need to be so persistent. I bet this persistence has led to some troubles in the past too(troubles, complications call them what you like. And i know it has).



Zaneesh852 said:


> I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
> http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif
> 
> With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.


Same complication in Baluchistan. I agree with the point made by @That Guy , western route should be given more importance. We should also look at the long-term benefits.

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## barbarosa

Army is right because civil administration is corrupt and they can facilitate enemy country such as India for a few thousand of dollars, Indian traders will play the game for RAW.They will creates problems for Pak Army.


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## Zaneesh852

WAJsal said:


> Same complication in Baluchistan. I agree with the point made by @That Guy , western route should be given more importance. We should also look at the long-term benefits.


What kind of complications remain in Balochistan? Have you ever heard a factory being destroyed, a businessman being kidnapped? Its Ironic but Balochistan has a more business friendly environment partly because of future hub of manufacturing and core of CPEC. For reaping long term benefits, you need to plan today and start acting which is absent in KPK administration's actions. You have the right to agree and disagree but also provide convincing evidences to support your arguments.



barbarosa said:


> Army is right because civil administration is corrupt and *they can facilitate enemy country such as India for a few thousand of dollars, Indian traders will play the game for RAW*.They will creates problems for Pak Army.


Looks like we have a new breed of educated lal-topis.


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## That Guy

Zaneesh852 said:


> I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
> http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif
> 
> With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.


On the other hand, I doubt extortion would be a major problem, considering both the PA and the Chinese are involved.


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## Lavrentiy

The Western route is a fanciful dream. Balochistan and FATA will always be terror-infested badlands where no trade route is ever going to be feasible. Even in peaceful times, criminals had sanctuaries in these areas.

The Chinese are not brain-dead that they don't know this. As they have a long history of relationship with Pakistan, they know what areas of Pakistan are relatively safer. The Eastern route through Punjab is the only one that that will ever be built.


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## Zaneesh852

That Guy said:


> On the other hand,* I doubt extortion would be a major problem*, considering both the PA and the Chinese are involved.


Sab kuch Chinese he nay to nahi dalna. Here's another one from yesterday. And you wonder why despite holding investment roadshows, nobody comes to invest in KPK.





That aside, the murder of Soren Singh and now this are also pointing to a rise in the target killing. What used to be the hallmark of Karachi is now becoming that of Peshawar


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## That Guy

Zaneesh852 said:


> Sab kuch Chinese he nay to nahi dalna. Here's another one from yesterday. And you wonder why despite holding investment roadshows, nobody comes to invest in KPK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That aside, the murder of Soren Singh and now this are also pointing to a rise in the target killing. What used to be the hallmark of Karachi is now becoming that of Peshawar


Sorry, I can't read a lick of urdu anymore. I'll take your word on it.


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## Zaneesh852

That Guy said:


> Sorry, I can't read a lick of urdu anymore. I'll take your word on it.


read or understand?


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## Gufi

WAJsal said:


> Same complication in Baluchistan. I agree with the point made by @That Guy , western route should be given more importance. We should also look at the long-term benefits.


Baluchistan is where it is right now because of the policies of let us ignore it... the same mistakes should not be repeated and we should favor KPK and Baluchistan more
As for extortions and other issues, these are small issues when the project is being run under army protection these little thugs will disappear.. Chotu gang will still be fresh in their memories

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## That Guy

Zaneesh852 said:


> read or understand?


Read. I can understand it just fine, and it's the language I speak at home.


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## I.R.A

Neither Army nor Civilian government ................... Privatise the damn projects, that would ensure better administration, better accountability, more transparent business results and healthy competition. Army and Civilians don't go well when it comes to Army being involved in administration. Army can monitor and supervise the security and protection of national interests and government can look after the infrastructure and relations with China etc...................... but both of them should leave the business to qualified civilian people.


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