# ISRO: A lesson for Pakistan.



## karan21

I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence. 

Now the important lesson: 

I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret. 

Slow and steady we keep progressing. We face failures and fall behind with shatterred confidence, then make a comeback. Pakistan was the second in Asia to launch a space rocket, it could be a world leader, it is not because you guys never understood the meaning of sustained and long term development. Investments that will pay off in long run. Pakistan always found the easiest ways to do things. 

Finally only those countries will succeed that will keep patience, vision to do something and collaboration. 


Its never too late. India will now get ahead with its new Mk3 beast, Pakistan can make a start with small rockets in collboration with Iran.

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## AUz

Funds and priority matters.....

Pakistanis became too concerned with security after 1971' ...

Anyways , best of luck for ISRO

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## karan21

AUz said:


> Funds and priority matters.....
> 
> Pakistanis became too concerned with security after 1971' ...
> 
> Anyways , best of luck for ISRO



Never too late. Another country that thinks its never too late to start is Iran. They are making it happen. Pakistan can do it too. 
Space progress is for entire mankind.

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## The Deterrent

karan21 said:


> I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence.



It isn't about daring to enter the new fields. It is about the damn funds. SUPARCO never had the required funds, as all of them were diverted towards nuclear weapons and missiles development.

As for trolling on the failures: Haters will keep hating, and Trollers will keep trolling. They will always find new reasons to make fun. It is the opinions of mature persons that you need to pay attention to.




> Now the important lesson:
> 
> I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret.
> 
> Slow and steady we keep progressing. We face failures and fall behind with shatterred confidence, then make a comeback. Pakistan was the second in Asia to launch a space rocket, it could be a world leader, it is not because you guys never understood the meaning of sustained and long term development. Investments that will pay off in long run. Pakistan always found the easiest ways to do things.
> 
> Finally only those countries will succeed that will keep patience, vision to do something and collaboration.
> 
> 
> Its never too late. India will now get ahead with its new Mk3 beast, Pakistan can make a start with small rockets in collboration with Iran.



Yes, Pakistani Engineers are watching India. No, the reason behind Indian success is the money and intellect. What Pakistan lacks is visionary eyes and planning ahead of the time.
Pakistan's Military junta remained focused on military developments, that is why PakSLV is still in the design phase.

Pakistan's tests have also failed, because our engineers brought in their own developments. If the Military doesn't wants to disclose the failures, its not the fault of the engineers. China drew back the helping hand a long time ago.

Iranians modified a Ballistic missile and used it as the Safir SLV. Pakistan could've done the same, but they have decided to go for an SLV 6 times heavier than Safir, which will deliver 10 times more payload to the Sun-Synchronous Orbit.

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## ajtr

karan21 said:


> I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence.


Why do you look for anybody's approval/appreciation etc for whatever india does.....



> Now the important lesson:
> 
> I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret.
> 
> Slow and steady we keep progressing. We face failures and fall behind with shatterred confidence, then make a comeback. Pakistan was the second in Asia to launch a space rocket, it could be a world leader, it is not because you guys never understood the meaning of sustained and long term development. Investments that will pay off in long run. Pakistan always found the easiest ways to do things.
> 
> Finally only those countries will succeed that will keep patience, vision to do something and collaboration.
> 
> 
> Its never too late. India will now get ahead with its new Mk3 beast, Pakistan can make a start with small rockets in collboration with Iran.


Very much patronizing haan.....................

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## karan21

AhaseebA said:


> It isn't about daring to enter the new fields. It is about the damn funds. SUPARCO never had the required funds, as all of them were diverted towards nuclear weapons and missiles development.
> 
> As for trolling on the failures: Haters will keep hating, and Trollers will keep trolling. They will always find new reasons to make fun. It is the opinions of mature persons that you need to pay attention to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Pakistani Engineers are watching India. No, the reason behind Indian success is the money and intellect. What Pakistan lacks is visionary eyes and planning ahead of the time.
> Pakistan's Military junta remained focused on military developments, that is why PakSLV is still in the design phase.
> 
> Pakistan's tests have also failed, because our engineers brought in their own developments. China drew back the helping hand a long time ago.
> 
> Iranians modified a Ballistic missile and used it as the Safir SLV. Pakistan could've done the same, but they have decided to go for an SLV 6 times heavier than Safir, which will deliver 10 times more payload to the LEO.


 

Exactly the reasons are vision. Pakistan has no shortage of hardworking people. Funding is also not that big of a problem. I guess we are lucky to have Vikram Sarabhai and APJ Abdul Kalam. Two great souls.



ajtr said:


> Very much patronizing haan.....................



yes because we have something to back it with.

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## The Deterrent

karan21 said:


> Exactly the reasons are vision. Pakistan has no shortage of hardworking people. Funding is also not that big of a problem. I guess we are lucky to have Vikram Sarabhai and APJ Abdul Kalam. Two great souls.



My friend funding is the biggest problem. We don't have any shortage of civilian visionaries. The proposals for SLV were submitted by the two major Pakistani contenders way back in 2005. The f*cking PPP Government has cut all those major funds, even the military ones.


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## gslv mk3

AhaseebA said:


> Yes, Pakistani Engineers are watching India. No, the reason behind Indian success is the money and intellect. What Pakistan lacks is visionary eyes and planning ahead of the time.
> Pakistan's Military junta remained focused on military developments, that is why PakSLV is still in the design phase.
> 
> Pakistan's tests have also failed, because our engineers brought in their own developments. China drew back the helping hand a long time ago.
> 
> Iranians modified a Ballistic missile and used it as the Safir SLV. Pakistan could've done the same, but they have decided to go for an SLV 6 times heavier than Safir, which will deliver 10 times more payload to the LEO.



No money isn't all...it requires a lot of dedication....

First building for ISRO was this church in a fisher man's village in thiruvananthapuram....which he got coz the bishop and parish was ready to give up their church for benefit of their country(I salute those patriotic men)







1994 aticle.......

Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines

With the successful blast-off of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle-C1, India has stunned the world.

But it was not always a saga of sweet success and triumph for the Indian Space Research Organisation; lack of funds and technological failure were par for the course.

Monday's achievement is yet another vindication of the ability and commitment of ISRO scientists who have built the organisation from its humble birth in a Kerala church to a global technological power. This is how they did it:

Till 1963, Thumba would not have merited a second look. It was a typical Kerala fishing hamlet with boats stacked on the seafront and about 500 thatched houses set amidst coconut groves. In the midst of this cluster, about 25 km from Thiruvananthapuram, was the small Magdalene Church and the bishop&#8217;s house adjacent to it. It is in this unlikely setting that India&#8217;s soaring vision of harnessing space technology took shape.

The 1.5 sq km of Thumba was acquired in 100 days flat. The bishop&#8217;s office was converted into an office and the church became the workshop in which a handful of enthusiastic young scientists assembled their first rocket. In just about six months&#8217;s time, on November 21, 1963, India had launched the first rocket and put its signature on space. To the core group of scientists -- trained at the National Aeronautics & Space Administration of the US -- it&#8217;s still a matter of astonishment that so much was achieved with so little. The only equipment for transporting the rocket, they remember, was an old jeep and a manually operated crane that developed a leak during lift-off!

This is the stuff of legends that make up the history of the Indian Space Research Organisation. Set up with little funding and few facilities, ISRO has made India&#8217;s space programme the envy of the world, a feat that is hailed by experts as &#8216;success on a shoestring&#8217;. Even four years after that historic launch when India was building its Rohini sounding rocket, the facilities were primitive.

Vasant Gowarikar, who was wooed away from the UK Atomic Energy Authority for the difficult job of making propellants for the rockets, recalls what a shock Thumba was. &#8220;*I knew we had to start from scratch, but was not prepared for what I saw. We were all sitting in this church building, and adjacent to it there was a cowshed. I was then shown my lab. It was this cowshed.&#8221; As an incentive, he was offered the use of a nearby cattle feed store!*

Gowarikar, now vice-chancellor of Pune University, says it was a meeting with Vikram Sarabhai, the father of the space programme, that inspired him to leave the sophisticated Sommerfield Research Station *where he was working on advanced rocket components, for the cowshed in Thumba. Thanks to the dedication and skill of scientists like Gowarikar, the space programme is one of the outstanding successes of the country.*

One of just seven nations to have satellite launching capability, ISRO has given India launch vehicles, geostationary satellites (used for telecommunication, television transmission and weather forecasting) and some of the finest remote sensing satellites. In fact, IRS IC, launched in 1995, is the most sophisticated civilian remote sensing satellite in the world.

All thanks to one man&#8217;s visionary views on linking space technology with the development of a backward nation. Sarabhai was the moving spirit behind this endeavour as anyone in ISRO will vouch. Virtually every project ISRO has completed till now had been thought of by Sarabhai in the early sixties. Even the geostationary satellite launch vehicle that is expected to be ready by early 1998.


*The wonder is that all this has been achieved with funding that, by international standards, is considered frugal. When ISRO was officially formed in 1972, its budget was Rs 100 million. This has increased steadily over the years to the current Rs 9.22 billion ($ 260 million). The US budgets more than $ 15 billion for its space programme which, of course, is more ambitious and includes projects like the space shuttle. China, which has a more comparable space programme, is estimated to spend around $ 5 billion.*

But officials point out that the key factor in this success has been the unwavering support of the political establishment for the space programme. This has given ISRO a freedom rare for a government department and allowed it to develop a flexible management and administrative system. Much of the credit for this, according to the space community, goes to Satish Dhawan who, along with Sarabhai, enjoys a haloed reputation in ISRO. If Sarabhai was the visionary. Dhawan was the builder, but the latter, true to form, denies his stellar role in ISRO&#8217;s development. &#8220;It wasn&#8217;t my doing. I joined only in 1972, ISRO existed before that.&#8221;

The first decade was the toughest. When Sarabhai established the Thumba Equatorial Rocket Launching Station in 1963, few took the space programme seriously. R Narasimha, ISRO professor at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore and Space Commission member, says the Americans were convinced the Indian space programme wouldn&#8217;t amount to much. Narasimha, who was at Caltech in the US in the sixties, recalls: &#8216;There were food shortages in India and the US was giving us grain. *How could a country which couldn&#8217;t even feed itself start building rockets and satellites? They did not think that India would be able to develop the technologies.&#8221;*

Sarabhai and his band of young scientists proved them wrong but it was a painstaking process, beginning with the simple sounding rocket. These lightweight rockets go up to a height of 100 km, and are used to study a phenomenon called the equatorial jet. Pramod Kale, who moved from the Physical Research Laboratory in Ahmedabad (Sarabhai was director of PRL) to the rocket technology group of TERIS in 1966, says: &#8216;It took us three years to build the first rocket. We had a large number of failures.&#8221;

Once a rocket took off when the warning siren was switched on, a full three minutes before the actual time for launch. Another day, a rocket took off horizontally without even being fired. Some of the rockets did not reach the required heights.

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## karan21

AhaseebA said:


> My friend funding is the biggest problem. We don't have any shortage of civilian visionaries. The proposals for SLV were submitted by the two major Pakistani contenders way back in 2005. The f*cking PPP Government has cut all those major funds, even the military ones.




Well then I guess wait till u get a good leader. Lets see if Pakistan's slv takes off after it gets funding

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## OrionHunter

karan21 said:


> Pakistan always found the easiest ways to do things.


Apart from the funding for space research (which is being diverted to useless pursuits such as a nuke program with a stockpile far in excess of its requirements) Pakistani scientists think they don't need to reinvent the wheel when they can get all the rocket and missile tech off the shelf at much lower cost from China. 

Why spend on a space program when they can hitch a ride on the Chinese bandwagon at a fraction of the cost?

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## ajtr

karan21 said:


> Exactly the reasons are vision. Pakistan has no shortage of hardworking people. Funding is also not that big of a problem. I guess we are lucky to have Vikram Sarabhai and APJ Abdul Kalam. Two great souls.


The day india decide to deploy nukes in space be sure you'll find Pakistan fast closing in.Coz most of Pakistan's ST projects are viewed from defence forces perspective.They dont care for civilian purpose of any tech.





> yes because we have something to back it with.


Still lack heavy lifters.

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## karan21

OrionHunter said:


> Apart from the funding for space research (which is being diverted to useless pursuits such as a nuke program with a stockpile far in excess of its requirements) Pakistani scientists think they don't need to reinvent the wheel when they can get all the rocket and missile tech off the shelf at much lower cost from China.
> 
> Why spend on a space program when they can hitch a ride on the Chinese bandwagon at a fraction of the cost?


 
Thats stupid. National pride and honour can only be achieved by doing it by urself. Strength respects strength.



ajtr said:


> Still lack heavy lifters.



Soon sister soon, as I said patience and gradual development is what I love about Isro. :p

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## Icewolf

Its not a question of not doing it. We have missiles that can take us there, and we have missiles better than both Iran and India. Pakistan just doesn't have much knowledge on space so we dont want to send it on our own.



OrionHunter said:


> Apart from the funding for space research (which is being diverted to useless pursuits such as a nuke program with a stockpile far in excess of its requirements) Pakistani scientists think they don't need to reinvent the wheel when they can get all the rocket and missile tech off the shelf at much lower cost from China.
> 
> Why spend on a space program when they can hitch a ride on the Chinese bandwagon at a fraction of the cost?


 

Same as India - Russia

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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> Its not a question of not doing it. We have missiles that can take us there, and we have missiles better than both Iran and India. Pakistan just doesn't have much knowledge on space so we dont want to send it on our own.



Hmm interesting although what u said doesn't make any sense.

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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> Its not a question of not doing it. We have missiles that can take us there, and we have missiles better than both Iran and India. Pakistan just doesn't have much knowledge on space so we dont want to send it on our own.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as India - Russia



even after all this you cant understand eh?
maximum payload even an ICBM like agni 5 can take to space is 50 kg(LEO)
India have capability to send 5 tonnes to LEO...
and it will be increased to 10 tonnes this year........
we also have worlds third largest rocket booster ...
and still you think your missiles are better than India???

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## RiazHaq

karan21 said:


> I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence.
> 
> Now the important lesson:
> 
> I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret.



Don't be so cocky!

And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. 

_The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._

India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles

It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race. 

Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles

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## karan21

gslv mk3 said:


> even after all this you cant understand eh?
> maximum payload even an ICBM like agni 5 can take to space is 50 kg(LEO)
> India have capability to send 5 tonnes to LEO...
> and it will be increased to 10 tonnes this year........
> we also have worlds third largest rocket booster ...
> and still you think your missiles are better than India???



This thread is for people like ICewolf, please don't turn it into dick measuring contest.

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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> Same as India - Russia



russian launch ???
what?? aryabhatta back in 1975???

we have launched a lot of foreign sats...you know that??


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## karan21

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles



quickly can be over 40 yrs. It takes about a decade just to design a cryo engine given than funding is there.

In lagging in missle development, I can tell u it doesn't. Take my word.

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## gslv mk3

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.


Haqs (a)muzing joke starts..


> As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service".[/I]



even agni 3 is in service......




> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.



yeah may be launch a 50 kg sat to leo and close the gap????




> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


[/QUOTE]
as I said on an other thread....


*Is it even honest to assert that the SLV-3 was derived from the Scout? India's Space Research Organization's (ISRO) SLV-3 was designed to fulfill the same role as the Scout (i.e., put small satellites in Low Earth Orbit). It is therefore not surprising that there is superficial similarity in their shapes. However, it requires significant evidence to jump from this superficial similarity to the claim that "its design is virtually identical to the Scout's." It is necessary to re-emphasize that rockets are highly complex systems, and to compare two rockets by their external appearance is highly dubious.
*
*Even a slightly deeper analysis will indicate that the SLV-3 rocket stages have a different diameters, and different L/D ratios. The various Scout stages were culled together from an inventory of military rocket motors and consequently used a variety of solid fuels including polyurethane. The SLV-3 used hydroxyl terminated poly butadiene (HTPB) in all its stages (4). The second stage of the Scout used the Castor stage. The Castor motor used HTPB as the solid fuel. Significantly, the Castor used a different oxidiser with the Castor stage using acrylic acid (5), whereas the SLV-3 used red fuming nitric acid (RFNA) (4). It is unsurprising then, that propellant weights were also different. The information about the fuels is key, given the relatively short spectrum of solid fuel chemicals. The thrusts and burn times of the different stages are all different. Moreover, the SLV-3's payload is considerably lighter and its fairing is shaped differently. Additionally, the SLV-3 was the first rocket to use proportional control for its first stage control systems with a sharing logic software (6). Given the extent and depth of difference, it is clear that the SLV-3 is neither a "copy" nor "derivative" of the Scout. It is worth recalling the words of a far more technically astute person, Werner Von Braun: "If you want to do anything in rocketry, do it by yourself. SLV is a genuine Indian design." (4)*


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## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> even after all this you cant understand eh?
> maximum payload even an ICBM like agni 5 can take to space is 50 kg(LEO)
> India have capability to send 5 tonnes to LEO...
> and it will be increased to 10 tonnes this year........
> we also have worlds third largest rocket booster ...
> and still you think your missiles are better than India???


 
I meant we have some missiles better than India, basically in terms of payload, range to payload capita, etc. Slapping on 3 boosters on a rocket, is not what I would call a huge achievement. Rather, people want accuracy (where the missile will land), or efficiency on range to where you can waste less oil. Unfortunately India doesn't have that type of technology.


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## Bobby

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


 

That is your problem.....Comparing PSLV with a missile.....

no problem...... keep making/ buying missiles.....we are happy doing PSLV, GSLV, Chndrayaan etc...

Let see where Pakistan and India reach in their respective goals in next 20 years...

Good luck


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## ajtr

karan21 said:


> Soon sister soon, as I said patience and gradual development is what I love about Isro. :p


So till then be ready for criticism too and dont beg that none should make fun of indian failures...that opening remark in your 1st post make people think that you suffer from inferiority complex.

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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> I meant we have some missiles better than India, basically in terms of payload, range to payload capita, etc. Slapping on 3 boosters on a rocket, is not what I would call a huge achievement. Rather, people want accuracy (where the missile will land), or efficiency on range to where you can waste less oil. Unfortunately India doesn't have that type of technology.



Man I am becoming a fan of your intellect. loll


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## The Deterrent

AAAAnnnnnnnDDDD the d*ck measuring and trolling contest begins!

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> Man I am becoming a fan of your intellect. loll


 
Then tell me what I said wrong, please don't try to up your post count.


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## karan21

ajtr said:


> So till then be ready for criticism too and dont beg that none should make fun of indian failures...that opening remark in your *1st post make people think that you suffer from inferiority complex.*


 

Well i think I have been on this forum for a long time. It will help in improving quality of this forum. Rather than bringing poverty and malnutrition into missile threads we should discuss the reasons for failures.


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## Bobby

ajtr said:


> So till then be ready for criticism too and dont beg that none should make fun of indian failures...that opening remark in your 1st post make people think that you suffer from inferiority complex.


 

Making fun of Indian failure.. keep you ahead ...then be my guest.....

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## gslv mk3

karan21 said:


> This thread is for people like ICewolf, please don't turn it into dick measuring contest.


 
what ever you say...they would still troll...


And for idiots who say Isro cryogenic engines were built by
1.TOT from russia
2.Reverse engineering KVD1

Indian cryogenic engine(CE 7.5)....







Russian cryogenic engine(KVD1)....left

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## RiazHaq

karan21 said:


> quickly can be over 40 yrs. It takes about a decade just to design a cryo engine given than funding is there.
> 
> In lagging in missle development, I can tell u it doesn't. Take my word.



India got cryo from Russians. 

The cryogenic stage used in a recent satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India. 

As to taking your word, I'm sorry I'd rather take the word of the expert scientists at the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. 

Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> I meant we have some missiles better than India, basically in terms of payload, range to payload capita, etc. Slapping on 3 boosters on a rocket, is not what I would call a huge achievement. Rather, people want accuracy (where the missile will land), or efficiency on range to where you can waste less oil. Unfortunately India doesn't have that type of technology.



all space launchers in the world uses strap ons...

Payload?
compare with agni V?
talking about accuracy?
look at AKASH sam and BMD....
we also have mems based on board electronics...our own RLG based INS....
what do you have

compare your short range missiles with shaurya....


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## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> what ever you say...they would still troll...
> 
> 
> And for idiots who say Isro cryogenic engines were built by
> 1.TOT from russia
> 2.Reverse engineering KVD1
> 
> Indian cryogenic engine(CE 7.5)....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian cryogenic engine(KVD1)....left



No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.


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## karan21

RiazHaq said:


> India got cryo from Russians.
> 
> The cryogenic stage used in a recent satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.
> 
> As to taking your word, I'm sorry I'd rather take the word of the expert scientists at the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


 

Good for us and bad for Pakistan. Collaboration is important. Now we are self sufficient.



Icewolf said:


> No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.



You have internet...

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## ajtr

karan21 said:


> Well i think I have been on this forum for a long time. It will help in improving quality of this forum. Rather than bringing poverty and malnutrition into missile threads we should discuss the reasons for failures.


One thing you have to understand ..In pakistan use of science and tech is seen from military point of view.pak saw the use of nuke iand missile it got those now when its military sees the use of space launchers in its overall defence paradigm it will get the launchers too..be sure of that.

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## OrionHunter

gslv mk3 said:


> The bishops office was converted into an office and the church became the workshop in which a handful of enthusiastic young scientists assembled their first rocket. In just about six monthss time, on November 21, 1963, India had launched the first rocket and put its signature on space. Its still a matter of astonishment that so much was achieved with so little. *The only equipment for transporting the rocket, they remember, was an old jeep and a manually operated crane that developed a leak during lift-off!*
> 
> This is the stuff of legends that make up the history of the Indian Space Research Organisation.


And this is how they started...

Nose cones and rocket parts being carried during the initial phases of the space program:



























*And today...*






*We've come a long way, baby!!*

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## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> all space launchers in the world uses strap ons...
> 
> Payload?
> compare with agni V?
> talking about accuracy?
> look at AKASH sam and BMD....
> we also have mems based on board electronics...our own RLG based INS....
> what do you have
> 
> compare your short range missiles with shaurya....


 
Well I don't know about the technical stuff, but SAM's and BMD's are not that good of a achievement against our advanced missiles. Even Israel's Iron Shield missile defence system could not protect against Hezbollah's rocket launchers, I don't understand how Akash and your BMD can protect against Babur (stealth cruise missile) especially when BMD and SAM's have low success rate


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## ajtr

Bobby said:


> Making fun of Indian failure.. keep you ahead ...then be my guest.....


If begging for praise/recognition /appreciation keeps you feel superior then be my guests...

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## gslv mk3

RiazHaq said:


> India got cryo from Russians.
> 
> The cryogenic stage used in a recent satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.
> 
> As to taking your word, I'm sorry I'd rather take the word of the expert scientists at the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles



Atomic scientists commenting about SLVs???

what is the experience of that expert???qualification???

was he a spy working at ISRO???

copy??open your eyes and see??

if it was a copy of reliable russian one (KVD1) why would it fail???


gslv mk3 said:


> And for idiots who say Isro cryogenic engines were built by
> 1.TOT from russia
> 2.Reverse engineering KVD1
> 
> Indian cryogenic engine(CE 7.5)....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian cryogenic engine(KVD1)....left


 

also explain how India built a 200 kn gas generator cycle(a diffrent tech) based engine from a 75 kn engine tech transfer,.......?????

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## karan21

ajtr said:


> One thing you have to understand ..In pakistan use of science and tech is seen from military point of view.pak saw the use of nuke iand missile it got those now when its military sees the use of space launchers in its overall defence paradigm it will get the launchers too..be sure of that.


 

I dont deny that they have the capability. They possess hardworking people. But what I think is that rather than spending billions on space launchers and infra military will prefer to pay china 50 million and launch it and instead buy more planes and artillery. Its the lack of vision. I dont think Pakistan will get into a catch up race.

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> You have internet...


 
Even if I do, internet doesn't always speak the truth. Your in a high class university but you still seem like a 10 year old.


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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> Even if I do, internet doesn't always speak the truth. Your in a high class university but you still seem like a 10 year old.



I am a prodigy actually 9 yrs old..

If you search properly u will find truth. dhoondne se bhagwan bhi milta hai bhai.

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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.



India flight tests Kaveri engine in Russia

Scramjet combustor tested....

India tests scramjet engine combustor module - Satellite News - Just another satellite weblog

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> I dont deny that they have the capability. They possess hardworking people. But what I think is that rather than spending billions on space launchers and infra military will prefer to pay china 50 million and launch it and instead buy more planes and artillery. Its the lack of vision. I dont think Pakistan will get into a catch up race.


 
Well lets just say this. Pakistan doesn't really need to put rockets up in space. That only builds up ego, which is useless. Look at NASA. What has NASA achieved outerspace? Nothing. They have not even found any life or anything. They are not a space administration, rather they have turned out into a weather organization. That's why Obama keeps cutting it's funds every year.



gslv mk3 said:


> India flight tests Kaveri engine in Russia
> 
> Scramjet combustor tested....
> 
> India tests scramjet engine combustor module - Satellite News - Just another satellite weblog


 
I'm not sure if you have seen the latest news buddy. Kaveri is being used as a UAV engine becuase it didn't meet the requirements of a jet engine.


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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> Well I don't know about the technical stuff, but SAM's and BMD's are not that good of a achievement against our advanced missiles. Even Israel's Iron Shield missile defence system could not protect against Hezbollah's rocket launchers, I don't understand how Akash and your BMD can protect against Babur (stealth cruise missile) especially when BMD and SAM's have low success rate


 
advanced missiles??any thing similar to shaurya???

stealh babur???lol

low success rate??
Try to make some quasi ballistic BM or hypersonic cruise missiles to penetrate BMD


----------



## Night_Raven

> Gowarikar, now vice-chancellor of Pune University, says it was a meeting with Vikram Sarabhai, the father of the space programme, that inspired him to leave the sophisticated Sommerfield Research Station where he was working on advanced rocket components, for the cowshed in Thumba. Thanks to the dedication and skill of scientists like Gowarikar, the space programme is one of the outstanding successes of the country.



Such people are the real unsung heroes of our space programme ... real tribute to them , hats off !! 

I remember reading APJ Abdul Kalam's autobiography "Wings of Fire" and came across few such instances -



> "The launch of Agni was the common stake not only for our scientists , but for their families too.V R Nagaraj was the leader of the electrcal integration team.Dedicated technologist that he is ,Nagaraj would forget basic requirements like food and sleep while on the integration gig. His
> brother-in-law passed away while he was at ITR. His family kept information from Nagaraj so that
> there would be no interruption in his work towards the launching of Agni."

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## ajtr

karan21 said:


> I dont deny that they have the capability. They possess hardworking people. But what I think is that rather than spending billions on space launchers and infra military will prefer to pay china 50 million and launch it and instead buy more planes and artillery. Its the lack of vision. I dont think Pakistan will get into a catch up race.


Let me give you simple example Heavy Industries Taxila in pakistan will give any DRDO industry/pvt auto maker run for its money in Sciencie and tech if not better reason being it fits perfectly in its decence paradigm.same is for its nuke and missile industry it heveavily defence oriented even PM is not allowed whole details about it. so when time comes for space it will find the funding in pakistan.

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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> Well lets just say this. Pakistan doesn't really need to put rockets up in space. That only builds up ego, which is useless. Look at NASA. What has NASA achieved outerspace? Nothing. They have not even found any life or anything. They are not a space administration, rather they have turned out into a weather organization. That's why Obama keeps cutting it's funds every year.


 

Apart from ego it bring pride and respect.

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> I am a prodigy actually 9 yrs old..
> 
> If you search properly u will find truth. dhoondne se bhagwan bhi milta hai bhai.


 
How dare you associate God with the internet...


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## The Deterrent

gslv mk3 said:


> advanced missiles??any thing similar to shaurya???
> 
> stealh babur???lol
> 
> low success rate??
> Try to make some quasi ballistic BM or hypersonic cruise missiles to penetrate BMD


 
If Pakistan's military does not "announces" such developments, it doesn't means that such weapons are not being developed. You must understand, Pakistan needs to keep a low profile on these developments, so that USA/world doesn't accuse Pakistan of diverting Aid funding towards development of Military Projects.

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## OrionHunter

Icewolf said:


> How dare you associate God with the internet...


But just Google, *'God'* and you'll find him on the internet!!


----------



## zynga

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles



lOL.. completely off topic.. how and where do you find info which says Pak is better than india.. man you have [atience... bulleting of atomic scientist.. hilarious

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> Apart from ego it bring pride and respect.


 
It also brings bankruptcy.  Treat your women with respect, but don't give her a diamond ring everytime you see her.

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## karan21

AhaseebA said:


> If Pakistan's military does not "announces" such developments, it doesn't means that such weapons are not being developed. You must understand, Pakistan needs to keep a low profile on these developments, so that USA/world doesn't accuse Pakistan of diverting Aid funding towards development of Military Projects.


 

Refuse the aid and launch a satellite and see how the world will applaud Pakistan. Time is now....


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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> Well lets just say this. Pakistan doesn't really need to put rockets up in space. That only builds up ego, which is useless. Look at NASA. What has NASA achieved outerspace? Nothing. They have not even found any life or anything. They are not a space administration, rather they have turned out into a weather organization. That's why Obama keeps cutting it's funds every year.


internet?TV?weather monitoring??

India can predict annual crop harvest and cultivatable land using its satelittes?
we develop satellites for other countries

we launch satellites for other countries

we sell satellite imagery to other countries




> I'm not sure if you have seen the latest news buddy. Kaveri is being used as a UAV engine becuase it didn't meet the requirements of a jet engine.



IAF wanted a 95+kn engine.
Kaveri is a 85 kN engine(it is designed for 85 kN)

so it is used in UCAV ...


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## ajtr

Icewolf said:


> How dare you associate God with the internet...


Miyan proverb boli hai usnay woh..Aur yeh proverb hazaron saalon se chali aa rahi hai jab google bhi nahi tha..........

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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> Apart from ego it bring pride and respect.


 
Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?

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## gslv mk3

AhaseebA said:


> If Pakistan's military does not "announces" such developments, it doesn't means that such weapons are not being developed. You must understand, Pakistan needs to keep a low profile on these developments, so that USA/world doesn't accuse Pakistan of diverting Aid funding towards development of Military Projects.



Shaurya is a deployed already...
K15 SLBM is under deployment..

Be Frank...do you have capability to develop a Scramjet???


----------



## ares

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


 

It is always a good idea to read the article before making assumptions and mincing words !!

No where in the article it is said that "India lags Pakistan in missile development" but it says Pakistan and China have substantial edge over India in missile deployment( and not development).

Further it goes on to mention on how Pakistan has mostly deployed Chinese supplied Missiles along with North Korean ones and some other local missiles.

However article is wrong on many accounts wrt Indian missile development . Agni 2 and Agni 3 have been inducted long back ..are regularly tested by SFC. Further Jaguar will not be used for deploying Nuclear weapons .only other aircraft likely to be used by SFC are sukhois.

Sagarika missile is totally operational and is currently being fitted to Indian SSBN.

Dhanush is not a missile per say but stabilization platform used for firing Prithvi series of missile from surface ships.
Nuclear capable missiles which have already been deployed and are not mentioned in the article are are Prithvi 2 and Prithvi 3.

However in terms of missile development ..India is far ahead of Pakistan.

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?


 
No but atleast they will have a reason to cheer and raise the tiranga. 

Apart from that they will get better telecommunications, networking, imagery and 30 yrs from now migh t even get a chance to spend honeymoon in space.

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## gslv mk3

Rusty said:


> Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?


 
India do not use all its money for space programme...
ISRO budget is 1.1 billion...
a single welfare program that endures job to rural people cost $10 billion..
and infra budget for next 5 years is $ 1 trillion!!!!

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## zynga

Icewolf said:


> No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.


 
they are different things.. india built a jet engine, but wht they need is a better one. but the rocket engine that we builtt msy servet the purpose , but it still may not yet be the best in class.

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## Icewolf

ares said:


> It is always a good idea to read the article before making assumptions and mincing words !!
> 
> No where in the article it is said that "India lags Pakistan in missile development" but it says Pakistan and China have substantial edge over India in missile deployment( and not development).
> 
> Further it goes on to mention on how Pakistan has mostly deployed Chinese supplied Missiles along with North Korean ones and some other local missiles.
> 
> However article is wrong on many accounts wrt Indian missile development . Agni 2 and Agni 3 have been inducted long back ..are regularly tested by SFC. Further Jaguar will not be used for deploying Nuclear weapons .only other aircraft likely to be used by SFC are sukhois.
> 
> Sagarika missile is totally operational and is currently being fitted to Indian SSBN.
> 
> Dhanush is not a missile per say but stabilization platform used for firing Prithvi series of missile from surface ships.
> Nuclear capable missiles which have already been deployed and are not mentioned in the article are are Prithvi 2 and Prithvi 3.
> 
> In terms of missile development ..India is far ahead of Pakistan.



Really?? Your advanced missile is what?? ICBM? COmpare with out multi tube stealth cruise missile and come back ok


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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> No but atleast they will have a reason to cheer and raise the tiranga.
> 
> Apart from that they will get better telecommunications, networking, imagery and 30 yrs from now migh t even get a chance to spend honeymoon in space.




That is some backwards logic if I do say so. 
So you think it is more important for the people to have pride and be able to make a phone call then to have food?
please correct me if I am wrong in this impression.


----------



## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> IAF wanted a 95+kn engine.
> Kaveri is a 85 kN engine(it is designed for 85 kN)
> 
> so it is used in UCAV ...


 
And? It was still not of requirements for IAF, right?


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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> Really?? Your advanced missile is what?? ICBM? COmpare with out multi tube stealth cruise missile and come back ok


 
lolol stealth cruise missile.....







end of babur....

If you want your missile to strike India test something simlar to HSTDV






2014 tests...engine has been tested already....


----------



## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> India do not use all its money for space programme...
> ISRO budget is 1.1 billion...
> a single welfare program that endures job to rural people cost $10 billion..
> and infra budget for next 5 years is $ 1 trillion!!!!


 
Well good for you. Every country's citizens need better infrastructure.

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## The Deterrent

gslv mk3 said:


> Shaurya is a deployed already...
> K15 SLBM is under deployment..
> 
> Be Frank...do you have capability to develop a Scramjet???


 
I know that.

Negative, not indigenously.


----------



## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> lolol stealth cruise missile.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> end of babur....
> 
> If you want your missile to strike India test something simlar to HSTDV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2014 tests...engine has been tested already....


 
No, my friend. Babur goes tree top level. Your SAM's and BMD's cannot hit it. And PA knows about what a SAM does, they will launch it from the middle of Pakistan, so it goes tree top level when it hits New Delhi so SAM's and BMD's cannot hit

And don't give me bullshit about new missiles. Your quoting from a damn blogspot, and we all know India's project real dates


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## ajtr

Rusty said:


> Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?


Ask this question to ghairat brigade after all one of them gave the slogan of eating grass to make bomb.

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## Bobby

ajtr said:


> If begging for praise/recognition /appreciation keeps you feel superior then be my guests...



It is not our fault that this PSLV launch for French and Japanese satellite only....if they are begging to give us praise/recognition /appreciation.....


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

gslv mk3 said:


> even after all this you cant understand eh?
> maximum payload even an ICBM like agni 5 can take to space is 50 kg(LEO)
> India have capability to send 5 tonnes to LEO...
> and it will be increased to 10 tonnes this year........
> we also have worlds third largest rocket booster ...
> and *still you think your missiles are better than India???*



Do We really Care what Out Little neighbor thinks ? Move on



AhaseebA said:


> AAAAnnnnnnnDDDD the d*ck measuring and trolling contest begins!


 

There is No contest between Indian and Pakistan. 
Only delusions

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## Icewolf

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Do We really Care what Out Little neighbor thinks ? Move on


 
Little neighbor??? I wonder what China must think of you if we are little since China is 40 years ahead of you

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> That is some backwards logic if I do say so.
> So you think it is more important for the people to have pride and be able to make a phone call then to have food?
> please correct me if I am wrong in this impression.



Well dude u sacrifice something to achieve something. 2 billion is not even that much of money.


----------



## Rusty

ajtr said:


> Ask this question to ghairat brigade after all one of them gave the slogan of eating grass to make bomb.


 
Wasn't it Bhutto who made that slogan?
And seriously, he was rich @sshole who know that he would not be the one eating grass. 
He destroyed the country. 
But that is neither here nor there. The OP made this whole thread to boast about pride and what not. So that begs the question, why is the country with the world's largest starving population focusing it's "pride" on this and not feeding more then a billion people. Surely that would be an object of greater pride, to do what only 1 other country on earth has done, that being feeding 1 billion people.

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## Icewolf

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> There is No contest between Indian and Pakistan.
> Only delusions


 
I agree. We must wait 20 years when India's infrastructure and living conditions come on par with Pakistan, and then compare... Nice idea.


----------



## Bobby

Icewolf said:


> How dare you associate God with the internet...



are you talibani?


----------



## karan21

Icewolf said:


> I agree. We must wait 20 years when India's infrastrucure and living conditions come on par with Pakistan, and then compare... Nice idea.


 
I pity you. I can see you are a rich Pakistani, please get out of your house and see your country.


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## 1ndy

Rusty said:


> Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?


 
eating rockets, sats and jet engine is always better than eating nuclear bomb

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## Wet Shirt Contest

Icewolf said:


> Little neighbor??? I wonder what China must think of you if we are little since China is 40 years ahead of you


 

Mate, Now why are *YOU* concerned "what China" Think Of Us ? Indian Obsession Much ?

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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> Well dude u sacrifice something to achieve something. 2 billion is not even that much of money.


 
Fair enough, but let's not have false pride about things. 
How can you claim to be "Great" with the world's largest starving population?
You do realize that anything India does will be contrasted with the extreme poverty right?
If UK makes a satellite, no on cares because they can do without sacrificing human lives. 
If India does it....well like you said, gotta sacrifice something and human life is cheap in India.


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## Wet Shirt Contest

Icewolf said:


> I agree. *We must wait 20 years when India's infrastructure and living conditions come on par with Pakistan, and then compare*... Nice idea.


 

Your trolling shows, hardworking Indian are on right track.
go cry me a River

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> I pity you. I can see you are a rich Pakistani, please get out of your house and see your country.


 
Haha, I'm definitely not rich, and I've definitely seen it all on both sides, buddy.



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Mate, Now why are *YOU* concerned "what China" Think Of Us ? Indian Obsession Much ?


 
You are on a Pakistani forum and talking about another's obsession. Someone clap for this genius.



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Your trolling shows, hardworking Indian are on right track.
> go cry me a River


 

They will be on right track.. In 20 years.


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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> Can the starving people of India (And Pakistan for that matter) eat pride and respect?



Dont forget you wowed to eat grass for thousand years for Kashmir.....keep eating

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## Wet Shirt Contest

Icewolf said:


> Haha, I'm definitely not rich, and I've definitely seen it all on both sides, buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> You are on a Pakistani forum and talking about another's obsession. Someone clap for this genius.



What the Eff PDF is doing in India ? Tell Admins to ban it, we will stop visiting it.
guy talks about obsession. lol

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> Fair enough, but let's not have false pride about things.
> How can you claim to be "Great" with the world's largest starving population?
> You do realize that anything India does will be contrasted with the extreme poverty right?
> If UK makes a satellite, no on cares because they can do without sacrificing human lives.
> If India does it....well like you said, gotta sacrifice something and human life is cheap in India.


Dude are working for british aid department????
We don't care. Our death rates by hunger are going down like crazy, agricultural production was at 4 % last year. Poverty is going down. Per capita is more than Pakistan. By ppp we are 3rd largest economy. 

You will never understand, In India decisions are taken with a lot of calculations. India is not a one man show like Pakistan. We are a democracy and know our priorities after 65 years of independence. We r not a confused nation.

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## Rusty

The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India. 

Of course these Bhartis only see what their media shows them and they fully belive that all of Pakistan is like Waziristan. 

It's like a fat guy making fun of a thinner guy for being fat.


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## Wet Shirt Contest

Censored!!!!! Mod del it


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## ares

Icewolf said:


> Really?? Your advanced missile is what?? ICBM? COmpare with out multi tube stealth cruise missile and come back ok


 
Here is India's Multitube missile ..which out ranges your multitube missile by 3 times.







Here is our supersonic cruise missile and subsonic cruise missile (again which outranges your cruise missile.

http://brahmos.com/home.php
Nirbhay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now where is your ICBM or ABM or supersonic CM or SAM or even an ATGM?

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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> Dude are working for british aid department????
> We don't care. Our death rates by hunger are going down like crazy, agricultural production was at 4 % last year. Poverty is going down. Per capita is more than Pakistan. By ppp we are 3rd largest economy.
> 
> Calm down now.


 

Calm down? I don't remember getting excited in the first place.
I know that my questions and line of thought are a direct threat to your fragile ego but still man, no need to project your insecurities. 
The whole point of this thread, that you made, was to gloat and show "pride"
I am merely saying that you can't really be that proud when human life is so cheap that even you say "we don't care" about your poor and starving countrymen. 
I just hope that such Darwinian attitudes are not prevalent in India, but sadly it seems like the general consensus


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

karan21 said:


> Dude are working for british aid department????
> We don't care. Our death rates by hunger are going down like crazy, agricultural production was at 4 % last year. Poverty is going down. Per capita is more than Pakistan. By ppp we are 3rd largest economy.
> 
> *You will never understand*, In India decisions are taken with a lot of calculations. India is not a one man show like Pakistan. We are a democracy and know our priorities after 65 years of independence. We r not a confused nation.


 
They understand it, but they will never admit it. Good for us, they are still in delusion and we are progressing here.

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## 1ndy

Guys please let us die of starvation...

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India.
> 
> Of course these Bhartis only see what their media shows them and they fully belive that all of Pakistan is like Waziristan.
> 
> It's like a fat guy making fun of a thinner guy for being fat.



stop beringing poverty here.


----------



## Icewolf

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> What the Eff PDF is doing in India ? Tell Admins to ban it, we will stop visiting it.
> guy talks about obsession. lol


 
It's the INTERNET you moron. Indian people are free to click anything they want know?

And as for banning it for Indians, your govt is doing the job. If you want to talk about someone's obsession, please don't come on PDF ever again.


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## OrionHunter

Rusty said:


> The OP made this whole thread to boast about pride and what not. *So that begs the question, why is the country with the world's largest starving population focusing it's "pride" on this and not feeding more then a billion people. *


So that begs the question, *why is your country with the world's largest starving population percentage wise, focusing it's "pride" on building nuclear weapons far in excess of its requirements and which has now the fastest growing nuke arsenal, not feeding more than the 28.3 per cent starving people of Pakistan instead, who are way below the poverty line? 
*

Don't keep shooting from the hip. People in glass house shouldn't be throwing stones. You should practice what you preach!


----------



## sivadreams

On OP, missiles are cost centers untill its is used in war. where as ISRO is a profit center. Thats the major differece. Profit centers are economic powerhouses for the people and the people are benefited by its $. Not mention about creating jobs.

Lets simply compare the Defense missile complex employment rate and ISRO employment rate. That will give answers to whether people will have their meal or not.

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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> Fair enough, but let's not have false pride about things.
> How can you claim to be "Great" with the world's largest starving population?
> You do realize that anything India does will be contrasted with the extreme poverty right?
> If UK makes a satellite, no on cares because they can do without sacrificing human lives.
> If India does it....well like you said, gotta sacrifice something and human life is cheap in India.


 

Whenever your a$$ burn because of India's achievement..you start talking about India's poverty....eating grass to build PSLV is much better than eating grass for atom bombs

.....and dont forget ...we made huge money also by launching PSLV today apart from respect....


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## Icewolf

OrionHunter said:


> So that begs the question, *why is your country with the world's largest starving population percentage wise, focusing it's "pride" on building nuclear weapons far in excess of its requirements and which has now the fastest growing nuke arsenal, not feeding more than the 28.3 per cent starving people of Pakistan instead, who are way below the poverty line?
> *
> 
> Don't keep shooting from the hip. People in glass house shouldn't be throwing stones. You should practice what you preach!


 
We have 20% population in poverty. India has 70% living below $1.20 a day. Just recently your government announced anyone who lives above rs. 36 a day is considered middle class in India, while Pakistan follows international guidelines, India makes up her own. See who is i na worst place and who is not.


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## joekrish

Rusty said:


> Fair enough, but let's not have false pride about things.
> How can you claim to be "Great" with the world's largest starving population?
> You do realize that anything India does will be contrasted with the extreme poverty right?
> If UK makes a satellite, no on cares because they can do without sacrificing human lives.
> If India does it....well like you said, gotta sacrifice something and human life is cheap in India.



I'm sure you are aware that this satellites are also used for improving agriculture production and weather forecasting, so all of this is directly or indirectly involved to iradicating poverty and hunger.


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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> stop beringing poverty here.


 

Why? does it hurt your fragile ego?
The poverty point is perfectly valid. 

Canada is on the richest countries on earth, but we don't do such vanity projects, not because we can't, but because we don't need to. We don't need a multi billion dollar project to feel better about yourself. We spend that money on the people, give healthcare, education, quality of life. And Judging by the number of Indian immigrants, I would say Indians want the same.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

karan21 said:


> I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence.
> 
> Now the important lesson:
> 
> I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. *The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret. *



More than Patience, i'd credit Vikram Sarabhai , who understood the importance of space technologies.

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## Wet Shirt Contest

Icewolf said:


> Haha, I'm definitely not rich, and I've definitely seen it all on both sides, buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> *You are on a Pakistani forum and talking about another's obsession. Someone clap for this genius.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will be on right track.. In 20 years.







Icewolf said:


> It's the INTERNET you moron. Indian *people are free to click anything they want know*?
> 
> And as for banning it for Indians, your govt is doing the job. If you want to talk about someone's obsession, please don't come on PDF ever again.



If i go by your logic, it's a defence forum open for all nationalities. right ?
*You IDIOT* contradicting your own previous statement. 

Typical troll

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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> We have 20% population in poverty. India has 70% living below $1.20 a day. Just recently your government announced anyone who lives above rs. 36 a day is considered middle class in India, while Pakistan follows international guidelines, India makes up her own. See who is i na worst place and who is not.


 

Lol congrats. Dude when can i move into Pakistan for job in worlds largest mnc.


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## Icewolf

ares said:


> Here is India's Multitube missile ..which out ranges your multitube missile by 3 times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is our supersonic cruise missile and subsonic cruise missile (again which outranges your cruise missile.
> 
> BrahMos Aerospace-A joint venture(JV) of DRDO and NPOM
> Nirbhay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Now where is your ICBM or ABM or supersonic CM or SAM or even an ATGM?


 
You are such a idiot. I agree with the multi tube system, but range of a missile doesn't matter. Missiles don't have to be long range or short range, as long as they are designed for their own rules. Your cruise missiles may have larger range than ours, but your cruise missiles dont have the same technology as ours do, and thats what matters. Its exactly what I was saying in my other post, slapping on 3 boosters is a huge achievement for India


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## karan21

Syama Ayas said:


> More than Patience, i'd credit Vikram Sarabhai , who understood the importance of space technologies.


 

I mean patience in failure and setbacks. India fails more than average, that is truth.

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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India.
> 
> Of course these Bhartis only see what their media shows them and they fully belive that all of Pakistan is like Waziristan.
> 
> It's like a fat guy making fun of a thinner guy for being fat.



That's what I am saying a thin guy is making fun of healthy guy for being thin....


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## karan21

Rusty said:


> Why? does it hurt your fragile ego?
> The poverty point is perfectly valid.
> 
> Canada is on the richest countries on earth, but we don't do such vanity projects, not because we can't, but because we don't need to. We don't need a multi billion dollar project to feel better about yourself. We spend that money on the people, give healthcare, education, quality of life. And Judging by the number of Indian immigrants, I would say Indians want the same.


 

Yes and also spend 4 billion dollars on a g20 summit Lol

Canada to too behind to catch up. Trust me I am doing engineering in Canada. Canada today doesnt possess the capability to build a rocket on its own. It can't build space rockets or missiles or even fighter aircrafts.


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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> And? It was still not of requirements for IAF, right?



It would be used for AMCA...and AURA too....

It was designed for 85 kN......

according to your logic a Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engine is not used in boeing 787 and so that engine project is a failure...!!!!!!



Icewolf said:


> No, my friend. Babur goes tree top level. Your SAM's and BMD's cannot hit it. And PA knows about what a SAM does, they will launch it from the middle of Pakistan, so it goes tree top level when it hits New Delhi so SAM's and BMD's cannot hit
> 
> And don't give me bullshit about new missiles. Your quoting from a damn blogspot, and we all know India's project real dates



didnt you see that illustration?satellite can detect it


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## acetophenol

Icewolf said:


> No, my friend. *Babur goes tree top level. Your SAM's and BMD's cannot hit it. And PA knows about what a SAM does, they will launch it from the middle of Pakistan, so it goes tree top level when it hits New Delhi so SAM's and BMD's cannot hi*t
> 
> And don't give me bullshit about new missiles. Your quoting from a damn blogspot, and we all know India's project real dates


 

Akash SAM has the capability to intercept targets flying as low as 30mtrs at supersonic speeds.

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## ALOK31

Rusty said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India.
> 
> Of course these Bhartis only see what their media shows them and they fully belive that all of Pakistan is like Waziristan.
> 
> It's like a fat guy making fun of a thinner guy for being fat.



 91.india -3.6 
100. pakistan=3.5 
and gape is increasing day by day 


Quality of overall infrastructure - Country Rankings 2011

pakistan =middile class=20 million
india middile class=300 million 
and india is growing way faster than ur country
Demographics of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> Yes and also spend 4 billion dollars on a g20 summit Lol
> 
> Canada to too behind to catch up. Trust me I am doing engineering in Canada. Canada today doesnt possess the capability to build a rocket on its own. It can't build space rockets or missiles or even fighter aircrafts.


 
You do realize that there is a difference between "can't" and "won't"

Canada has the technical ability and the money to do it, if we were like India we would be making jets and rockets every other day. The problem would be that it would mean less resources for the people and the people would suffer a lot. Since we don't want that, we don't do vanity projects. 

And yes, Canada can afford to blow a billion dollars here and there with no one starving to death, Can India say the same?


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## Windjammer

Firstly congrats to ISRO on their success. !!

Now a question to the OP, why does every Indian goal, achievement, success has to be Pakistan centric ??? On one hand, it's often said that India is trying to chase China and whenever there is some progress, you guys start chest thumping with Pakistan embedded in your psyche. You have your own ambitions, we have our own goals. period.

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## gslv mk3

Icewolf said:


> I agree. We must wait 20 years when India's infrastructure and living conditions come on par with Pakistan, and then compare... Nice idea.






Rusty said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India.


 
'NEW DELHI: The Indian middle class, target consumers for many companies, is expected to swell up to 267 million people in the next five years, up 67 per cent from the current levels, thus providing a great market opportunity for firms, according to NCAER.

A report by National Council for Applied Economic Research's (NCAER) Centre for Macro Consumer Research said by 2015-16, India will be a country of 53.3 million middle class households, translating into 267 million people falling in the category.'

Superior pakistani infra



gslv mk3 said:


> delhi airport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delhi airport ranked second best in the world
> islamabad airport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistans concrete block airports are no match for new glass and steel airports in india.
> every tier1,tier 2,tier3 airports have one
> trivandrum airport


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## karan21

Rusty said:


> You do realize that there is a difference between "can't" and "won't"
> 
> Canada has the technical ability and the money to do it, if we were like India we would be making jets and rockets every other day. The problem would be that it would mean less resources for the people and the people would suffer a lot. Since we don't want that, we don't do vanity projects.
> 
> And yes, Canada can afford to blow a billion dollars here and there with no one starving to death, Can India say the same?



Hamare paise hum jaha chahe unhe kharche. tujhe kya problem hai??? You are now a Canadian someone who will never go back to Pakistan to settle. Dont worry about India and Pakistan.

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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> The funny thing is that Pakistan on the whole actually has better infrastructure , larger middle class and much much lower poverty then India.




You mean to say you have larger middle class than India...

Better Infrastructure...but no company is coming to Pakistan....even local companies are running away.....

How many bicycle or car factory you got....

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## ALOK31

Icewolf said:


> We have 20% population in poverty. India has 70% living below $1.20 a day. Just recently your government announced anyone who lives above rs. 36 a day is considered middle class in India, while Pakistan follows international guidelines, India makes up her own. See who is i na worst place and who is not.




Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

75% population lives below poverty line&#8217;

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## Rusty

ALOK31 said:


> 91.india -3.6
> 100. pakistan=3.5
> and gape is increasing day by day
> 
> 
> Quality of overall infrastructure - Country Rankings 2011
> 
> pakistan =middile class=20 million
> india middile class=300 million
> and india is growing way faster than ur country
> Demographics of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 

1. okay I will give you that, though we are only 9 positions away and most of your infrastructure has been built in the last 10-15 years. While Pakistan has had better infrastructure for the most part of the last 65 years. 

2. why are you comparing absolute numbers? what is the point of absolute number? in Korea I am a million air, but that money is worth 1/3 USD. 
Percentage wise Pakistan has had and still has a higher middle class and lower levels of poverty. 
(interesting how you gave absolute numbers in middle class, but didn't give any numbers in Poverty, it is because you know that India has more poverty absoute numbers wise and percentage wise?)


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## gslv mk3

Rusty said:


> 1. okay I will give you that, though we are only 9 positions away and most of your infrastructure has been built in the last 10-15 years. While Pakistan has had better infrastructure for the most part of the last 65 years.


yes pakistan was better off during '90s


> 2. why are you comparing absolute numbers? what is the point of absolute number? in Korea I am a million air, but that money is worth 1/3 USD.
> Percentage wise Pakistan has had and still has a higher middle class and lower levels of poverty.
> (interesting how you gave absolute numbers in middle class, but didn't give any numbers in Poverty, it is because you know that India has more poverty absoute numbers wise and percentage wise?)


[/QUOTE]
Indian middle class is 25% pakistan it is 10%

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## illusion8

Windjammer said:


> Firstly congrats to ISRO on their success. !!
> 
> Now a question to the OP, *why does every Indian goal, achievement, success has to be Pakistan *centric ??? On one hand, it's often said that India is trying to chase China and whenever there is some progress, you guys start chest thumping with Pakistan embedded in your psyche. You have your own ambitions, we have our own goals. period.



That's only in PDF, don't think every Indian is even bothered about beating Pakistan.

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## AUz

ALOK31 said:


> 91.india -3.6
> 100. pakistan=3.5
> and gape is increasing day by day
> 
> 
> Quality of overall infrastructure - Country Rankings 2011
> 
> pakistan =middile class=20 million
> india middile class=300 million
> and india is growing way faster than ur country
> Demographics of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 

Pakistani middle-class ...just 20 million? 

LMAO!

Dude , why are you pulling this garbage from wiki? Are you serious? People like you put me into troll mode..and then you bhartis cry...

and your "infrastructure" site is sooooooooo dumb that it puts Russia BELOW Ethiopia in infrastructure...I mean..really?!?!?! and this is just 'one' example..the list is a joke. Complete joke.

Pakistan is way ahead of India in infrastructure...India is developing fast..no doubt..but right now..Pakistan > India in Infrastructure...


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## Rusty

karan21 said:


> Hamare paise hum jaha chahe unhe kharche. tujhe kya problem hai??? You are now a Canadian someone who will never go back to Pakistan to settle. Dont worry about India and Pakistan.



I'm sorry but I don't understand that chicken scratch you wrote in the first part. 
And 2. so you concede defeat
you realize that you could not counter my argument so this is your way to not lose face. 

It's alright man, most Indians get to this point sooner or later on this thread. You are not the first, nor will be the last.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> *It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race. *
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles



:

Stupidity at its best. Not surprised coming from you.

The above mentions "_Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals_" how is it remotely even related to confirmation on advanced rocket technology? 

Even if somehow Pakistan managed to launch payloads of 1 ton, Pakistan still will still lag behind India in launch of multiple satellites, recoverable reentry vehicle, military applications of space technology.

Heck Pakistan isn't even among the top ten in Space Competitiveness Index for 2011, where India is 6th.

2011 Space Competitiveness Index: India Overtakes Canada

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> 1. okay I will give you that, though we are only 9 positions away and most of your infrastructure has been built in the last 10-15 years. While Pakistan has had better infrastructure for the most part of the last 65 years.
> 
> 2. why are you comparing absolute numbers? what is the point of absolute number? in Korea I am a million air, but that money is worth 1/3 USD.
> Percentage wise Pakistan has had and still has a higher middle class and lower levels of poverty.
> (interesting how you gave absolute numbers in middle class, but didn't give any numbers in Poverty, it is because you know that India has more poverty absoute numbers wise and percentage wise?)



kkk one of the best ways to measure middle class is to see average per capita car sales of a country. 
Indian sales in 2011: 3 million 
Pakistani sales: 1 lac or 100000 or 0.1 million. 

Dude your car sales is about 30 times less than ours that mean your middle class is tiny compared to us. Now dont say that we prefer motorcycles and sh1t.

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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> 1. okay I will give you that, though we are only 9 positions away and most of your infrastructure has been built in the last 10-15 years. While Pakistan has had better infrastructure for the most part of the last 65 years.
> 
> 2. why are you comparing absolute numbers? what is the point of absolute number? in Korea I am a million air, but that money is worth 1/3 USD.
> Percentage wise Pakistan has had and still has a higher middle class and lower levels of poverty.
> (interesting how you gave absolute numbers in middle class, but didn't give any numbers in Poverty, it is because you know that India has more poverty absoute numbers wise and percentage wise?)


 
He just replied with facts for your stupid claim of better infrastructure and larger middle class than India.....dont showcase your stupidity by comparing 10 years to 65 years or this number or that number...facts are in front of you...

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## Jade

I don't think there is any lesson for Pakistan. Both India and Pakistan had their choices to make after 1947. India choose a path of self sufficiency and indigenization, while Pakistan choose a contrasting path.

So, I hope in future we will not have India vs Pak threads. We are not even remotely comparable.

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## karan21

Rusty said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand that chicken scratch you wrote in the first part.
> And 2. so you concede defeat
> you realize that you could not counter my argument so this is your way to not lose face.
> 
> It's alright man, most Indians get to this point sooner or later on this thread. You are not the first, nor will be the last.


 
You won the argument and we won the space race. kk now bye.

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## Rusty

gslv mk3 said:


> yes pakistan was better off during '90s


 Indian middle class is 25% pakistan it is 10%[/QUOTE]

I am really not surprised buy these numbers. Indians have a habit of "bending" the truth when it comes to such matters. 
It's a self defense mechanism they have developed to cope with the fact that they live in a country withe world's largest starving. 

To cite real numbers from non biased sources (sorry, your swami doesn't count as a source)
The middle class of Pakistan is estimated to be 20 million, about 11% of the population.
While the middle class of India is about 50 million, less then 5% of the population. 

sources: 
Pakistan
Economy of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imran Khan: Youthful Pakistan Could Revolt Against Zardari - TIME

India
Standard of living in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Next big spenders: India's middle class | McKinsey Global Institute | McKinsey & Company


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## gslv mk3

AUz said:


> Pakistan is way ahead of India in infrastructure...India is developing fast..no doubt..but right now..Pakistan > India in Infrastructure...



http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits.html#post3269494
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits-4.html#post3294359
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits-4.html#post3294047
see this post.....


----------



## Bobby

Rusty said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand that chicken scratch you wrote in the first part.
> And 2. so you concede defeat
> you realize that you could not counter my argument so this is your way to not lose face.
> 
> It's alright man, most Indians get to this point sooner or later on this thread. You are not the first, nor will be the last.




Yes we concede defeat....now on ...we will not launch any PSLV or GSLV and make more atom bombs like Pakistan 

we also realized that we cant counter stupidity thrown from other side....you win....


----------



## AUz

gslv mk3 said:


> Indian middle class is 25% pakistan it is 10%


 


Source? 

Percentage wise , Pakistani middle-class is BIGGER than Indian middle class..

Pakistan is a way , way better place to live in than India.. I already went over this in another thread...

There is LESS poverty in Pakistan as compared with India....

Get your facts straight buddy...This is not your delusional brainwashed lalaland of bhartimata.


----------



## ares

Icewolf said:


> You are such a idiot. I agree with the multi tube system, but range of a missile doesn't matter. Missiles don't have to be long range or short range, as long as they are designed for their own rules. Your cruise missiles may have larger range than ours, but your cruise missiles dont have the same technology as ours do, and thats what matters. Its exactly what I was saying in my other post, slapping on 3 boosters is a huge achievement for India


 
Do yourself a favour and stop embarrassing yourself in public, by talking further about missile technology. Clearly you have as much knowledge about missiles, as a dumb hick.

If Missile range in not important then why are your scientist keen to increase the range on Baubur and Nasr(which even if done, will still be short legged compared to the Indian missile of same size?

What is this out of worldly technology does your cruise missile have?

*BTW ..you skipped the part where you were suppose to show Pakistani equivalent to Indian ICMB, Supersonic CM, SLBM, SAM, ATGM, ABM, ASM??*


----------



## ALOK31

Rusty said:


> 1. okay I will give you that, though we are only 9 positions away and most of your infrastructure has been built in the last 10-15 years. While Pakistan has had better infrastructure for the most part of the last 65 years.


India to invest one trillion dollars in infrastructure
bro gap will be increasing in near future .i think after 20 years gap will be more than 30 rank.




Rusty said:


> 2. why are you comparing absolute numbers? what is the point of absolute number? in Korea I am a million air, but that money is worth 1/3 USD.
> Percentage wise Pakistan has had and still has a higher middle class and lower levels of poverty.
> (interesting how you gave absolute numbers in middle class, but didn't give any numbers in Poverty, it is because you know that India has more poverty absoute numbers wise and percentage wise?)


are u kidding ur population is 200 million according to recent report and india population is 1.21 billion so india population wise 6X times bigger than ur country but india middile class more than 15X bigger than ur country .and gape is incrasing vary fast and never forget ur country vary high population growth.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2049747,00.html


----------



## Jade

RiazHaq said:


> Don't be so cocky!
> 
> And don't forget that India lags Pakistan in missile development as recently reported by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
> 
> _The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, India's missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012. As the Bulletin notes, "the Agni I and Agni II , despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service"._
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles
> 
> It confirms that Pakistan possesses advanced rocket technology. Pak can deploy it for space launches if it so chooses and quickly close the gap with India in the space race.
> 
> Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles


 
Now Riaz, you are making a joke of yourself. Initially, Pak may at an advantage, because of the ready-made missile models Pak brought from NK, and China. Pak record on missile proliferation is well recorded in internationally- one of the reasons why you were denied Civilian nuke deal that is similar to India - while India progressed step by step. Now India has the capability to make ICBM and SLBM and more, while Pak is nowhere near that, moreover, our missile program immensely benefited from our space program. 

With tight control on nuke and missile proliferation, Pak nuke and missile program will remain stagnated, while India's program will grow leaps and bounds.


----------



## gslv mk3

Rusty said:


> Indian middle class is 25% pakistan it is 10%


 

To cite real numbers from non biased sources (sorry, your swami doesn't count as a source)
The middle class of Pakistan is estimated to be 20 million, about 11% of the population.
While the middle class of India is about 50 million, less then 5% of the population. 

[/url][/QUOTE]
50 billion lol.....Indias middle class is estimated at 170 million

Read more: Faber: India's Middle Class Will Soon Be Larger Than America's - Business Insider

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## Bobby

double post


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## Rusty

Bobby said:


> Yes we concede defeat....now on ...we will not launch any PSLV or GSLV and make more atom bombs like Pakistan
> 
> we also realized that we cant counter stupidity thrown from other side....you win....



Hey man do what you want, I don't really care. 
But once you start opening threads about your own vanity then be prepared to defend yourself. 
Clearly the OP expected everyone to just agree with him and was not ready to answer any hard questions. 
Rookie mistake, hopefully he will learn form it.


----------



## gslv mk3

AUz said:


> Source?
> 
> Percentage wise , Pakistani middle-class is BIGGER than Indian middle class..
> 
> Pakistan is a way , way better place to live in than India.. I already went over this in another thread...
> 
> There is LESS poverty in Pakistan as compared with India....
> 
> Get your facts straight buddy...This is not your delusional brainwashed lalaland of bhartimata.


 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits.html#post3269494
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits-4.html#post3294359
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/198359-indian-journalists-writers-share-eye-opener-stories-pakistan-visits-4.html#post3294047
see this post........

myth of 'superior' infrastructure busted


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## Bobby

double post


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## Rusty

ALOK31 said:


> India to invest one trillion dollars in infrastructure
> bro gap will be increasing in near future .i think after 20 years gap will be more than 30 rank.
> 
> 
> 
> are u kidding ur population is 200 million according to recent report and india population is 1.21 billion so india population wise 6X times bigger than ur country but india middile class more than 15X bigger than ur country .and gape is incrasing vary fast and never forget ur country vary high population growth.
> 
> Imran Khan: Youthful Pakistan Could Revolt Against Zardari - TIME



Right, good for you on the investment bit. I am sure in 5 years you guys will become number 30, but do you remember how everyone was saying India would have 10+% growth rate this year....what happened to that?


ANd where are you getting your numbers form? You do realize that making up numbers is not a credible way to have a discussion right?
I cited my sources, kindly site yours. 

Again, I realize you are emotionally invested in this idea that India is a galactic supa dupa pawa,lets face it if I lived in a country with the world's largest starving population I would do the same, but that doesn't give you the right to just make up numbers according to your feelings.

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## Bobby

Rusty said:


> Indian middle class is 25% pakistan it is 10%


 
I am really not surprised buy these numbers. Indians have a habit of "bending" the truth when it comes to such matters. 
It's a self defense mechanism they have developed to cope with the fact that they live in a country withe world's largest starving. 

To cite real numbers from non biased sources (sorry, your swami doesn't count as a source)
The middle class of Pakistan is estimated to be 20 million, about 11% of the population.
While the middle class of India is about 50 million, less then 5% of the population. 

sources: 
Pakistan
Economy of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imran Khan: Youthful Pakistan Could Revolt Against Zardari - TIME

India
Standard of living in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Next big spenders: India's middle class | McKinsey Global Institute | McKinsey & Company[/QUOTE]


For India you posted 5.5 years old data ..you truth bender

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## arp2041

karan21 said:


> I just want to say that from today please don't make fun of Indian failures. We don't deserve it. It is not fair because India tries new things and fails, Pakistan never dares to enter high tech fields, so it is succeding since independence.
> 
> Now the important lesson:
> 
> I am sure Pakistani engineers today are watching India. The reason why India is so ahead in this field is that we have patience. Patience is the ultimate success secret.
> 
> Slow and steady we keep progressing. We face failures and fall behind with shatterred confidence, then make a comeback. Pakistan was the second in Asia to launch a space rocket, it could be a world leader, it is not because you guys never understood the meaning of sustained and long term development. Investments that will pay off in long run. Pakistan always found the easiest ways to do things.
> 
> Finally only those countries will succeed that will keep patience, vision to do something and collaboration.
> 
> 
> Its never too late. India will now get ahead with its new Mk3 beast, Pakistan can make a start with small rockets in collboration with Iran.



@karan.....we don't need anyone's approval for our accomplishments.

+ I really don't understand why we compare ourselves always to Pakistan (we have good space tech. than Pak, missile tech., military, etc.), it is a economy 1/8th of ours. I ask u does China compare itself with India in whatever it achieves?? China wants to be US & compares itself with it in whatever it does & if we really are obsessed to compare ourselves to others than why not with China.

+ If Pakistan wants to have a good success in space, it has to take lessons from it's own as well as India's experience:

1. SUPARCO had a full 8 years lead over ISRO, but it has never taken advantage of first entry in space over India.

2. ISRO is one govt. organisation which has complete autonomy & GOI doesn't interfere much in it's affairs unlike others & scientists are the one who take all the decisions for ISRO (right man for right job), the best example is the Mars mission, when the ISRO scientists said that this mission is a must for India than GOI approved the mission as quickly as possible, if the same request was made by other govt. organisations for some other project, i don't think it would have been passed so swiftly. On the other hand SUPARCO has been under the eye of PA for many years after it's formation. The only thing the PA personnel presiding over SUPARCO were interested in was the missile & nuclear tech that can defend themselves against attack from India, the importance of satellites & other space tech (even for fulfilling purpose of war) was the thing they hardly were interested in. 

3. The budget of just $75 million is in no way will do any better for the space aspiration of Pakistan, i know Pakistan is a poor country like India, but GOI has made a healthy budget for ISRO in $1.3 billion to fulfill the country's space needs. The first thing the GOP can do is to increase the Space body's budget to atleast $200 to $ 300 million (some sacrifices should be made for the long term development of the country, why not start with a decrease in budget for nuclear arsenal??). 

4. Pakistan has to set goals for it's space agency like India does for ISRO, short term goal should be to make it's own completely indigenous communication satellites, mid term goal should be to develop indigenously all possible satellites (communication, spy etc.) & the long term goal (in a decade or so) should be to make it&#8217;s own rockets on the lines of PSLV & GSLV.

5. Sign MOU's & take help from whichever space agency or country that is ready to offer help to Pakistan, & for that matter why not take help from ISRO itself, i have no doubt whatsoever ISRO will be ready to help in tech. that is not of dual use to Pakistan.



Patience, Experience, sustained budget & non interference by either the GOI or the PA will be the key to achieve all this.

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## Yogi

Icewolf said:


> I agree. We must wait 20 years when India's infrastructure and living conditions come on par with Pakistan, and then compare... Nice idea.



Yep i agree in matters of infrastucture n social welfare Pakistan is in a league of its own

www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/206537-25m-children-out-school-pakistan.html

www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/160371-karachi-get-country-s-tallest-building-again.html

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## Riteon

STOP MAKING THIS INTO A D!CK MEASRUING CONTEST BETWEEN PAK AND IND

1] DONT DRAG INFRASTRUCTURE,POVERTY,MALNUTRITION OR ANY OTHER TROLLING CRAP INTO THIUS

2] INDIANS STOP ENCOURAGING THE TROLLS AND PLEASE KEEP THE CHEST THUMPING TO ISRO AND SPACE TECH ONLY

3] THIS THREAD WAS GOING FINE TILL RIAZ AND HIS MOOSINGS GAVE THE BAIT....SO PLEASE REFRAIN 




Paksitan is seriously missing out on the importance of Space race......Soon how airwarfare changed how Wars are played out...........space based abilities will be the deciding factor soon


NASA is truly an admirablel Program......the amount knowledge obtained and technology thatthey had to develop is truly remarkable and worth pursuing...................

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## Windjammer

ALOK31 said:


> bro see ur own country one of the most dangerous country in the world and low HDI country and top 10 failed state , daily bomb blast ,half population is illiterate ,vary high population growth 2-3% gdp growth .


 
Can't say i can blame you for splitting open your single cell Bharti brain. 

You see nature has been very cruel to your kind,... small in stature, undernourished.....result, every time you get a decent bowl of rice, you find it hard to digest...hence the verbal diarrhoea.

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## gslv mk3

Windjammer said:


> Can't say i can blame you for splitting open your single cell Bharti brain.
> 
> You see nature has been very cruel to your kind,... small in stature, undernourished.....result, every time you get a decent bowl of rice, you find it hard to digest...hence the verbal diarrhoea.


every thing is RAW zionist prpoaganda...


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## Windjammer

gslv mk3 said:


> every thing is RAW zionist prpoaganda...


 
And the Sub-Saharan comparison dates from last century.


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## gslv mk3

Windjammer said:


> And the Sub-Saharan comparison dates from last century.


 
Again going on to compare HDI??fine....


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## gslv mk3

*From here....*

Dr Kalam and coleague assembling a solid stage of a sounding rocket






*to here*

India Successfully Repeats Test Of Asia









*All of these due to the of the dedicated work of our scientists....And we do get enraged when Idiots who doesnt know anything about space research critisize our failures...*

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## manojb

Windjammer said:


> whenever there is some progress, you guys start chest thumping with Pakistan embedded in your psyche. .


 oh oh .. please take a look at the thread started by you .. exposes what is embedded in who?? !!

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## Gessler

Icewolf said:


> Well I don't know about the technical stuff, but SAM's and BMD's are not that good of a achievement against our advanced missiles. Even Israel's Iron Shield missile defence system could not protect against Hezbollah's rocket launchers, I don't understand how Akash and your BMD can protect against Babur (stealth cruise missile) especially when BMD and SAM's have low success rate


 
Stealth cruise missile my foot.

Did you forget how Iraqis shot down American T-LAMs (which use the same
terrain hugging method) in 1991 Gulf War with Euromissile Roland SHORADS
, which is actually designed in early 60's. 

Now figure out how Babur plans to escape state-of-the-art missiles like SpyDer,
or even Tunguska Anti-aircraft guns. Terrain-hugging is useless if enemy is
equipped with AWACS, Aerostats and low-level medium/high power radars and
modern SAM systems.

As soon as we inducted BrahMos Block-II LACM, Indian SAM and AA gun 
emplacements have started training about intercepting missiles coming at that 
speed (2.8 Mach), directly relevent to the reaction time available. What is
Babur's max speed? 0.8 Mach (the speed of a commercial airliner), quite a
very long reaction time is availble because our radars would be scanning your
missile silos/canister launchers anywhere in Pakistan straight from the
second the missile is launched.

Enough time to have a cup of tea and then think of intercepting the
incoming slowpoke missile

And btw, BMD is for ballistic missiles, not cruise missiles.

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## Rafi

Windjammer said:


> Can't say i can blame you for splitting open your single cell Bharti brain.
> 
> You see nature has been very cruel to your kind,... small in stature, undernourished.....result, every time you get a decent bowl of rice, you find it hard to digest...hence the verbal diarrhoea.



Having been to india - and seen the condition of the vast majority of it's people - the claims of this and that fade into insignificance when you see young children in india sleeping on the footpath.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Can't say i can blame you for splitting open your single cell Bharti brain.
> 
> You see nature has been very cruel to your kind,... small in stature, undernourished.....result, every time you get a decent bowl of rice, you find it hard to digest...hence the verbal diarrhoea.



Pakistan ranks worse in nutrition, education and HDI(in HDI, actually in a lower segment itself )... But higher in verbal diarrhoea 



Rafi said:


> Having been to india - and seen the condition of the vast majority of it's people - the claims of this and that fade into insignificance when you see young children in india sleeping on the footpath.


 
By that logic we can negate everything good about Pakistan because that would fade into insignificance in front of seeing people getting blown up into bits almost daily, either by the terrorists or by the drones..

Learn to stick to the topic while making counter points.. Else it just seems a lame cop out...

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## Luffy 500

Reasons for the inability of Pak to launch their own SLV IMO:

- A muslim majority state, officially an islamic republic attracts the evil eyes of yankis and zionist terrorist along with a hegemonic aggressor like India.

- Yanki imposed TOT and by default a crippling economy.( the most obvious reason. Any body making fun of PAK under such circumstances is a brain dead clown, nothing else)

- Overwhelming amount of made up myths and propaganda by RAW & CIA about PAK nuclear and missile programme.

- Constant security threat from India and state sponsor of terrorism from India.

- Water terrorism from India to cripple PAK

- A jealous hegemonic neighbor which 7 times larger and is dead set to destroy her.

All these has PAK occupied and focused rather than an expensive venture like space programme.
They look for the best way for survival in a tough and hostile neighborhood and world at large.
I pray to Allah(swt) that PAk can come out of her current predicament and teach her terrorist enemies a lesson that they will never forget.

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## Bobby

Luffy 500 said:


> Reasons for the inability of Pak to launch their own SLV IMO:
> 
> - A muslim majority state, officially an islamic republic attracts the evil eyes of yankis and zionist terrorist along with a hegemonic aggressor like India.
> 
> - Yanki imposed TOT and by default a crippling economy.( the most obvious reason. Any body making fun of PAK under such circumstances is a brain dead clown, nothing else)
> 
> - Overwhelming amount of made up myths and propaganda by RAW & CIA about PAK nuclear and missile programme.
> 
> - Constant security threat from India and state sponsor of terrorism from India.
> 
> - Water terrorism from India to cripple PAK
> 
> - A jealous hegemonic neighbor which 7 times larger and is dead set to destroy her.
> 
> All these has PAK occupied and focused rather than an expensive venture like space programme.
> They look for the best way for survival in a tough and hostile neighborhood and world at large.
> I pray to Allah(swt) that PAk can come out of her current predicament and teach her terrorist enemies a lesson that they will never forget.



I loved your comments.....

You guys are so naive ....really rest of the world so cruel to you all.....

so cute...what is your age?

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## Gessler

Luffy 500 said:


> Reasons for the inability of Pak to launch their own SLV IMO:
> 
> - A muslim majority state, officially an islamic republic attracts the evil eyes of yankis and zionist terrorist along with a hegemonic aggressor like India.
> 
> - Yanki imposed TOT and by default a crippling economy.( the most obvious reason. Any body making fun of PAK under such circumstances is a brain dead clown, nothing else)
> 
> - Overwhelming amount of made up myths and propaganda by RAW & CIA about PAK nuclear and missile programme.
> 
> - Constant security threat from India and state sponsor of terrorism from India.
> 
> - Water terrorism from India to cripple PAK
> 
> - A jealous hegemonic neighbor which 7 times larger and is dead set to destroy her.
> 
> All these has PAK occupied and focused rather than an expensive venture like space programme.
> They look for the best way for survival in a tough and hostile neighborhood and world at large.
> I pray to Allah(swt) that PAk can come out of her current predicament and teach her terrorist enemies a lesson that they will never forget.


 
India faced all these problems and still we launched 100 missions into
space, most of them launched with our own PSLV rocket using our own
Vikas rocket engine.

The simple reasons why Pakistan cannot be as capable is because of four
basic points -

1) Pakistan made the mistake of thumb$ucking in American lap for 65 years.
2) Pakistan throws away every penny it has and every penny others give it
as annual bheek into making silly weapons which can never win against
Indian Military.
3) An average Pakistani spends 75% of his time praying to the invisible one.
4) Pakistanis are not intelligent enough.

And you wanna know why countries like Bangladesh are even more unsuccesful
in this? reason I see -

1) Bangladeshis are too gullible that they believe everything that is told to them.
2) Bangladeshis forget all favours done to them by countries in a trice.
3) Bangladeshis sit in the lap of countries who raped and killed their people
mercilessly years ago. People who forget A and B by the time they reach C can
never even complete their kindergarten education.

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## Arav_Rana

Pakistani can not touch ISRO in short time,, but they should try hard to do better. Even we also need to work more harder in devlopment of our country..
and i think both India and pakistan should work in their backyard for country development... We may say that this country is our ally and blah blah , but because of we are giving them money that's why they are our ally.. and this point is valid on both country..


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## gslv mk3

deleted wrong thread.


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## RiazHaq

ajtr said:


> One thing you have to understand ..In pakistan use of science and tech is seen from military point of view.pak saw the use of nuke iand missile it got those now when its military sees the use of space launchers in its overall defence paradigm it will get the launchers too..be sure of that.



Defense requirements have always primarily driven tech advancements ranging from computers, semiconductors, software to the Internet. 

If you read the history of space technology, you'll find that launch rockets were developed first for defense purposes by Von Braun..first in Nazi Germany and then in US after WW II. 

Chinese and Indian interest in space technology has also been driven by defense. 

Haq's Musings: Pakistan Military Business and Industrial Revolution


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## RiazHaq

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistan ranks worse in nutrition, education and HDI(in HDI, actually in a lower segment itself )... But higher in verbal diarrhoea



It only exists only in imagination. Here's the real data from 2012 Save the Children survey:

Save the Childrens survey results showed that: in India, one of the worlds biggest boom economies and where half of all children are stunted, more than a quarter of parents surveyed said their children went without food sometimes or often; in Nigeria, nearly a third of parents had pulled their children out of school so they could work to help pay for food; in Bangladesh, 87% of those surveyed said the price of food had been their most pressing concern in 2010.

The survey was carried out by Globescan, international research consultancy, in December 2011 and January 2012 in Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Peru and Nigeria. These countries are the home of half of the worlds 170m million stunted children. Proportion of stunted children in countries surveyed: Pakistan 42% (10.1M) of children stunted,

Bangladesh 43% (7M), India 48% (60.5M), Nigeria 43% (10.9M), Peru 24% (712,560)[7] .

GlobeScan - A Life Free from Hunger: Tackling Child Malnutrition

Here's more from Bloomberg.com:

Early Death Assured in India Where 900M Dont Eat Enough

Early Death Assured in India Where 900M Don

Pakistan has more high school and college grads as percent of population than India, according to Harvard researchers Barro and Lee.

Haq's Musings: Educational Attainment in India & Pakistan

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## A.Rafay

Indians always trying to post their toys in pakistani sections to get praise! Shhoo Shooo Indiots, This is Pakistani development section.

Writing full articles about their new Useless Toy and Add Pakistans Name in it And post it here U ******* Indians!


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## ANPP

Icewolf said:


> No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.


 

There is too much difference in rocket & jet engine.
Kaveri trials are successful exept after burner phase which is essential for fighter planes.

SLV, PSLV & our missiles are best example for that our rocket engine tech is great.

And for your kind information India develop the rocket engine before jet engine, of course same goes to PAK who develop their missiles before developing jet if no I think they are using chinese rocket s/s which is...................

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## Icewolf

gslv mk3 said:


> To cite real numbers from non biased sources (sorry, your swami doesn't count as a source)
> The middle class of Pakistan is estimated to be 20 million, about 11% of the population.
> While the middle class of India is about 50 million, less then 5% of the population.
> 
> [/url]


50 billion lol.....Indias middle class is estimated at 170 million

Read more: Faber: India's Middle Class Will Soon Be Larger Than America's - Business Insider[/QUOTE]

Im not sure what is real middle class in India. Your govt plays cheap and says anyone who earns more than rs. 36 is middle class. lolz


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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> 50 billion lol.....Indias middle class is estimated at 170 million
> 
> Read more: Faber: India's Middle Class Will Soon Be Larger Than America's - Business Insider


 
Im not sure what is real middle class in India. Your govt plays cheap and says anyone who earns more than rs. 36 is middle class. lolz[/QUOTE]


No govt of India has said that anyone over rs 36 is middle class. LOll you claim that Pakistan has amazing middle class, then why Pakistani car sales are only 1/30 of Indian car sales. NO big company wants to invest in Pak. lolll dude ur a joke.


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## IndoUS

Icewolf said:


> 50 billion lol.....India&#8217;s middle class is estimated at 170 million
> 
> Read more: Faber: India's Middle Class Will Soon Be Larger Than America's - Business Insider


 
Im not sure what is real middle class in India. Your govt plays cheap and says anyone who earns more than rs. 36 is middle class. lolz[/QUOTE]

Because that Rs. 36 buys more in India, I can buy a Five star for Rs. 5 in India and the same damn candu would be selling for $1-2 in US so if you convert its about Rs. 50-100. So yes compared to India Rs. 36 is just fine.


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## Bobby

Icewolf said:


> 50 billion lol.....Indias middle class is estimated at 170 million
> 
> Read more: Faber: India's Middle Class Will Soon Be Larger Than America's - Business Insider


 
Im not sure what is real middle class in India. Your govt plays cheap and says anyone who earns more than rs. 36 is middle class. lolz[/QUOTE]


Where did you get number 50 billion


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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> No govt of India has said that anyone over rs 36 is middle class. LOll you claim that Pakistan has amazing middle class, then why Pakistani car sales are only 1/30 of Indian car sales. NO big company wants to invest in Pak. lolll dude ur a joke.


 
Here you go- _A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission whose Deputy Chairman's foreign trips between May and October last year cost a daily average of Rs. 2.02 lakh_

And Toyota, Suzuki, Honda are not big companies? Heck, even BMW is coming to Pakistan



IndoUS said:


> Because that Rs. 36 buys more in India, I can buy a Five star for Rs. 5 in India and the same damn candu would be selling for $1-2 in US so if you convert its about Rs. 50-100. So yes compared to India Rs. 36 is just fine.


 
Sure you can. But Indian govt doesn't follow international standards of below $1.25 a day is poverty. Your govt just wants FDI.



IndoUS said:


> Because that Rs. 36 buys more in India, I can buy a Five star for Rs. 5 in India and the same damn candu would be selling for $1-2 in US so if you convert its about Rs. 50-100. So yes compared to India Rs. 36 is just fine.


 
Sure you can. But Indian govt doesn't follow international standards of below $1.25 a day is poverty. Your govt just wants FDI.



Bobby said:


> Where did you get number 50 billion


 
Meant 50 million.

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## INDIC

Icewolf said:


> Here you go- _A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission_
> 
> Sure you can. But Indian govt doesn't follow international standards of below $1.25 a day is poverty. Your govt just wants FDI.


 
Prove your conflicting claims. Aaj kal har aira gaira nathu khaira khud ko economist samjhta hai, jaise ek tu hai.


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## karan21

Indian strong 350 million middle class will keep driving India forward. It will soon be 600 million by 2025.


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## Icewolf

Gigawatt said:


> Prove your conflicting claims. Aaj kal har aira gaira nathu khaira khud ko economist samjhta hai, jaise ek tu hai.


 
_"A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission whose Deputy Chairman's foreign trips between May and October last year cost a daily average of Rs. 2.02 lakh"_



karan21 said:


> Indian strong 350 million middle class will keep driving India forward. It will soon be 600 million by 2025.


 
Almost 75% of your so called middle class can't earn more than rs. 36 a day.

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## karan.1970

RiazHaq said:


> It only exists only in imagination. Here's the real data from 2012 Save the Children survey:


 
So much is bad with India, and still Pakistan is one full category lower than India in Human Development Index.. It must really suck in Pakistan on the parameters of HDI that UNDP saw it fit to demote Pakistan from Medium HDI to Low HDI last year..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/139212-pakistan-sinks-hdi-low-category.html

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## Icewolf

karan.1970 said:


> So much is bad with India, and still Pakistan is one full category lower than India in Human Development Index.. It must really suck in Pakistan on the parameters of HDI that UNDP saw it fit to demote Pakistan from Medium HDI to Low HDI last year..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/139212-pakistan-sinks-hdi-low-category.html


 
Pakistan is in a war... And India is only 10 places away from us. You are not special ok grandpa


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## karan.1970

Icewolf said:


> Pakistan is in a war... And India is only 10 places away from us. You are not special ok grandpa


 

excuses.. excuses... I thought you guys always claimed that India has more insurgent groups than Pakistan and whole of India is either being hit by Maoists or by Kashmiri freedom fighters ... 

Cant have it both ways mate...

anyway, Pakistan has been below India in HDI since 1985 

Time for a different excuse mate

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## Icewolf

karan.1970 said:


> excuses.. excuses... I thought you guys always claimed that India has more insurgent groups than Pakistan and whole of India is either being hit by Maoists or by Kashmiri freedom fighters ...
> 
> Cant have it both ways mate...
> 
> anyway, Pakistan has been below India in HDI since 1985
> 
> Time for a different excuse mate


 
Doesnt change the fact that Pakistan is in a bigger mess than India and yet - still India is only 10 places away from us


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## INDIC

Icewolf said:


> _"A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission whose Deputy Chairman's foreign trips between May and October last year cost a daily average of Rs. 2.02 lakh"_
> 
> 
> 
> Almost 75% of your so called middle class can't earn more than rs. 36 a day.



I was talking about 1.25 dollars part. What do you understand by that.


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## karan.1970

Icewolf said:


> Doesnt change the fact that Pakistan is in a bigger mess than India and yet - still India is only 10 places away from us


 

The fact that Pakistan has been below India since 1985 shows that the mess Pakistan is in (no 2 thoughts about it), has nothing (or very little) to do with the HDI situation..


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## k&#7779;am&#257;

Icewolf said:


> . . . . . slapping on 3 boosters is a huge achievement for India


 I donn take u to have a formal college education in basic physics or mathematics, or else u would not have even thought a bit b4 hitting the post button. 

For starters just imagine the force/thrust being handed and handelled by the rocket. Next think of the coordination of the, as per u, "Strap-ons". Each and every mechanical, electrical or software component must operate in a highly rigid coordination. . . 

I can write this post whole night long but I think I have lead u on a path of self discovery. Keep Learning.


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## Icewolf

karan.1970 said:


> The fact that Pakistan has been below India since 1985 shows that the mess Pakistan is in (no 2 thoughts about it), has nothing (or very little) to do with the HDI situation..


 
You are back on square one.


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## karan.1970

Icewolf said:


> You are back on square one.


 
Please do elaborate


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## Icewolf

Gigawatt said:


> I was talking about 1.25 dollars part. What do you understand by that.


 
If someone earns below $1.25 a day, that is the international guideline for poverty. India has made up her own, saying who ever earns more than rs. 36 a day is middle class.



karan.1970 said:


> Please do elaborate



I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about now. India is only 10 places ahead of us in HDI even though we are in a war. It's surely nothing to brag about, and it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

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## INDIC

Icewolf said:


> If someone earns below $1.25 a day, that is the international guideline for poverty. India has made up her own, saying who ever earns more than rs. 36 a day is middle class.


 
Bingo,how much is that in Indian and Pakistani rupees.


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## RiazHaq

karan.1970 said:


> So much is bad with India, and still Pakistan is one full category lower than India in Human Development Index.. It must really suck in Pakistan on the parameters of HDI that UNDP saw it fit to demote Pakistan from Medium HDI to Low HDI last year..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/139212-pakistan-sinks-hdi-low-category.html




It's an indictment of HDI which puts a nation with higher poverty, greater hunger and worse sanitation higher than its neighbors. 

Haq's Musings: 63 Years After Independence, India Remains Home to World's Largest Population of Poor, Hungry and Illiterates


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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> If someone earns below $1.25 a day, that is the international guideline for poverty. India has made up her own, saying who ever earns more than rs. 36 a day is middle class.
> .



Nonsense. We don't classify anyone like that as middle class. We classify them as APL, and even they have their own schemes such as ration cards and such, that gives them prices lower than a true middle class, but not as low as a BPL. The 300 million middle class we brag about are the people who live adequately good lives, without any Government help, and can afford a few luxuries. In this we also have 40 million higher middle class, who can afford more luxuries than others.


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## Hyperion

It's just a matter of funding. Have enough pays @ SUPRCO, give us the equipment we need, sit back, smoke a joint and it will be done, no questions about it! 



Rafi said:


> Having been to india - and seen the condition of the vast majority of it's people - the claims of this and that fade into insignificance when you see young children in india sleeping on the footpath.


Yara, what has that got to do with scientific progress?

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## Icewolf

Gigawatt said:


> Bingo,how much is that in Indian and Pakistani rupees.


 
Whoever earns more than 65 cents in India is considered middle class



EzioAltaïr;3389768 said:


> Nonsense. We don't classify anyone like that as middle class. We classify them as APL, and even they have their own schemes such as ration cards and such, that gives them prices lower than a true middle class, but not as low as a BPL. The 300 million middle class we brag about are the people who live adequately good lives, without any Government help, and can afford a few luxuries. In this we also have 40 million higher middle class, who can afford more luxuries than others.


 
_Govt of India says anyone who earns more than rs. 36 in cities is middle class_


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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> Whoever earns more than 65 cents in India is considered middle class


 
BS. Care to back up your claims with a credible source?


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## Icewolf

EzioAltaïr;3389784 said:


> BS. Care to back up your claims with a credible source?


 
_"A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission whose Deputy Chairman's foreign trips between May and October last year cost a daily average of Rs. 2.02 lakh"_


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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> _"A rural Indian making Rs. 22.50 a day would not be considered poor by a Planning Commission whose Deputy Chairman's foreign trips between May and October last year cost a daily average of Rs. 2.02 lakh"_



That just says the poverty line is Rs 22.5 (which it isn't by the way. The PL has been raised after the recent inflation, it's closer to 30). We don't consider an APL guy to be middle class. Just Above the PL people also have their own system of rations, and subsidies. Our 300 million middle class are middle class by international standards.


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## INDIC

--deleted--

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## Icewolf

EzioAltaïr;3389794 said:


> That just says the poverty line is Rs 22.5 (which it isn't by the way. The PL has been raised after the recent inflation, it's closer to 30). We don't consider an APL guy to be middle class. Just Above the PL people also have their own system of rations, and subsidies. Our 300 million middle class are middle class by international standards.


 
BS. Care to back up your claims with facts?

Compared to China, India has more of its middle class precariously perched just above the poor, a spot from where it is very easy to tumble back into poverty.

Indias middle classdefined as those able to spend between $2 to $20 a day in 2005 purchasing power parity dollarshas expanded to about 420 million, according to an Asian Development Bank report on Asias middle class out Thursday.

*But almost 60% of them live on between $2 and $4 a day. Thats about 20 to 40 rupees a day in nominal terms *(using an exchange rate of 15.66 rupees to one purchasing power parity dollar) or between $300 to $600 in parity terms (4,700 rupees to 9,400 rupees) a month for a family of five.

Making the middle class stay middle class is very important. In India the majority of the people are still in the lower middle class, the Asian Development Banks chief economist Jong-Wha Lee said as the findings of the report that looked at changes in the Indian middle class between 1993 and 2004 were released in Delhi. *These groups are very vulnerable. If they lose their job or if there are major shocks they will go back to poverty.
*
The people in the vulnerable lower middle class category number about 244 million. India also has approximately 26 million affluent people, those who can spend more than $20 a day.

*Figuring out how big the middle class is, is a tricky business. The ADB report notes that by using spending between $2 and $13 a day as the gauge,* the World Banks Martin Ravallion puts Indias middle class at 264 million and Chinas at around 800 million.

Continue reading on India Real Time.


OWNED!!!!

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## Hyperion

Oh my god.... Whats wrong with everyone..... The thread is about science..... Why is every one behaving as economists and gauging poverty levels in the subcontinent..... If you have no interest in pslv/gslv and it's history, why not do the honorable thing and just stay away.

This goes both ways.

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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> BS. Care to back up your claims with facts?
> 
> Compared to China, India has more of its middle class precariously perched just above the poor, a spot from where it is very easy to tumble back into poverty.
> 
> Indias middle classdefined as those able to spend between $2 to $20 a day in 2005 purchasing power parity dollarshas expanded to about 420 million, according to an Asian Development Bank report on Asias middle class out Thursday.
> 
> *But almost 60% of them live on between $2 and $4 a day. Thats about 20 to 40 rupees a day in nominal terms *(using an exchange rate of 15.66 rupees to one purchasing power parity dollar) or between $300 to $600 in parity terms (4,700 rupees to 9,400 rupees) a month for a family of five.
> 
> Making the middle class stay middle class is very important. In India the majority of the people are still in the lower middle class, the Asian Development Banks chief economist Jong-Wha Lee said as the findings of the report that looked at changes in the Indian middle class between 1993 and 2004 were released in Delhi. *These groups are very vulnerable. If they lose their job or if there are major shocks they will go back to poverty.
> *
> The people in the vulnerable lower middle class category number about 244 million. India also has approximately 26 million affluent people, those who can spend more than $20 a day.
> 
> *Figuring out how big the middle class is, is a tricky business. The ADB report notes that by using spending between $2 and $13 a day as the gauge,* the World Banks Martin Ravallion puts Indias middle class at 264 million and Chinas at around 800 million.
> 
> Continue reading on India Real Time.
> 
> 
> OWNED!!!!



Uh yeah? I got owned because India has 264 million middle class, which is by the way terribly close to the figure put, of 300 million? Wow man, really, wow. I always said we have 300 million by international standards.


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## Icewolf

EzioAltaïr;3389802 said:


> Uh yeah? I got owned because India has 264 million middle class, which is by the way terribly close to the figure put, of 300 million? Wow man, really, wow. I always said we have 300 million by international standards.


 
But most of your middle class is close to poverty, earning more than rs.36 a day


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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> But most of your middle class is close to poverty, earning more than rs.36 a day


 
*Sigh*

Read the source you provided. Without considering the people who earn between 2$ and 20$ a day, they have reached the figure of 264 million. Then there is 200 million who earn just above 2$ (I do not count them as our middle class in our argument, even though the cost of living in India is much lower, and these people get subsidies too, meaning that they can live as well as a middle class guy, let's consider 'em lower middle class). 

So your argument that the Indian middle class mostly consists of poor people, is useless. If earning more than 20$ a day per person is not enough, then there's no one who's not poor.


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## karan.1970

Icewolf said:


> If someone earns below $1.25 a day, that is the international guideline for poverty. India has made up her own, saying who ever earns more than rs. 36 a day is middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about now. India is only 10 places ahead of us in HDI even though we are in a war. It's surely nothing to brag about, and it's like the pot calling the kettle black.


 
Shuru kisne kiya tha


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## Icewolf

EzioAltaïr;3389826 said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Read the source you provided. Without considering the people who earn between 2$ and 20$ a day, they have reached the figure of 264 million. Then there is 200 million who earn just above 2$ (I do not count them as our middle class in our argument, even though the cost of living in India is much lower, and these people get subsidies too, meaning that they can live as well as a middle class guy, let's consider 'em lower middle class).
> 
> So your argument that the Indian middle class mostly consists of poor people, is useless. If earning more than 20$ a day per person is not enough, then there's no one who's not poor.


 
Most of Indian middle class doesn't earn more than $1.25 a day. Thats my arguement. The article says there are some Indians in middle class who earn more that $20 a day, but most earn in the range of 30-50 rs


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## Dushmann

RiazHaq said:


> It only exists only in imagination. Here's the real data from 2012 Save the Children survey:
> 
> Save the Children&#8217;s survey results showed that: in India, one of the world&#8217;s biggest boom economies and where half of all children are stunted, more than a quarter of parents surveyed said their children went without food sometimes or often


 
Children these days. khaane peeney ke bahot nakhre karte hai.


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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> Most of Indian middle class doesn't earn more than $1.25 a day. Thats my arguement. The article says there are some Indians in middle class who earn more that $20 a day, but most earn in the range of 30-50 rs


 
The article says that half of India's middle class get more than 20$ a day, while the other half get between 2$ to 20$ a day.


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## karan.1970

Hyperion said:


> Oh my god.... Whats wrong with everyone..... The thread is about science..... Why is every one behaving as economists and gauging poverty levels in the subcontinent..... If you have no interest in pslv/gslv and it's history, why not do the honorable thing and just stay away.
> 
> This goes both ways.


 

I give you exhibit A.. The moron who started it 




Rusty said:


> Fair enough, but let's not have false pride about things.
> How can you claim to be "Great" with the world's largest starving population?
> You do realize that anything India does will be contrasted with the extreme poverty right?
> If UK makes a satellite, no on cares because they can do without sacrificing human lives.
> If India does it....well like you said, gotta sacrifice something and human life is cheap in India.

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## Icewolf

EzioAltaïr;3389882 said:


> The article says that half of India's middle class get more than 20$ a day, while the other half get between 2$ to 20$ a day.


 
So half of India's middle class is poor


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## Hyperion

karan.1970 said:


> I give you exhibit A.. The moron who started it


Mate, don't be passive aggressive. If he did start it, why do you have to retaliate, why not be the bigger person?

This could have been an outstanding thread, the kid who started it is very informative in rocket propulsion and mild mannered. Why do others have to come and crap all over the thread. We are not seven any more, are we?

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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> So half of India's middle class is poor



India has a 400 million strong middle class. 264 million are middle class by international standards. 200 million are lower middle class. Leave it there, if you wanna discuss economics, start a new thread.

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistan ranks worse in nutrition, education and HDI(in HDI, actually in a lower segment itself )... But higher in verbal diarrhoea


 One wonders why unlike our SMS slapped neighbour, Pakistan is not mentioned in the same breath as say Ethiopia, Somalia, Congo.....I guess the cheap banter by OP is right down your ally.


> By that logic we can negate everything good about Pakistan because that would fade into insignificance in front of seeing people getting blown up into bits almost daily, either by the terrorists or by the drones..



By the virtue, suffice to say, visitors would be tripping over dead bodies of Farmers and Dalits if one was to take a saffron safari.


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## Windjammer

Hyperion said:


> Mate, don't be passive aggressive. If he did start it, why do you have to retaliate, why not be the bigger person?
> 
> This could have been an outstanding thread, the kid who started it is very informative in rocket propulsion and mild mannered. Why do others have to come and crap all over the thread. We are not seven any more, are we?


 
How else would you distinguish a drama queen.....our Karan takes the lead in the field.


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## karan21

Wow i cant believe that a thread started on sciencd and rockets is now a world economic forum where investments and middle class incomes are being discussed. Lolll this is crazy.

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> Wow i cant believe that a thread started on sciencd and rockets is now a world economic forum where investments and middle class incomes are being discussed. Lolll this is crazy.


 
You started this useless thread to troll Pakistan



Hyperion said:


> This could have been an outstanding thread, *the kid who started it is very informative in rocket propulsion and mild mannered.* Why do others have to come and crap all over the thread. We are not seven any more, are we?


 
Hahahahah...  The kid who started this thread has recently just stopped trolling and being retarded. Look at his earlier posts to see what I mean.. And he has no knowledge about rocket propulsion, that much I know


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## Hyperion

Icewolf said:


> You started this useless thread to troll Pakistan


There is nothing useless about this thread. This thread was a nice wake-up call for ALL of us. The facts are simple, if India can do it, so can we!

What's so wrong in someone trying to wake you up? I can understand the motivation of "Indian" trolls on this forum, however, what baffles me the most is individuals such as yourself. Why not acknowledge "lost" opportunities, stand up and work doubly hard to make up for the lost time.

Dude, loose the sentimental attitude, it has never served any nation. Pakistan is gifted with some of the brightest engineers in the world, however, we're sick and tired of mismanagement, self doubt and conspiracy theories.

Add something of value to this thread, and then you have the right to nag!

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Hyperion said:


> There is nothing useless about this thread. This thread was a nice wake-up call for ALL of us. The facts are simple, if India can do it, so can we!
> 
> What's so wrong in someone trying to wake you up? I can understand the motivation of "Indian" trolls on this forum, however, what baffles me the most is individuals such as yourself. Why not acknowledge "lost" opportunities, stand up and work doubly hard to make up for the lost time.
> 
> Dude, loose the sentimental attitude, it has never served any nation. Pakistan is gifted with some of the brightest engineers in the world, however, we're sick and tired of mismanagement, self doubt and conspiracy theories.
> 
> Add something of value to this thread, and then you have the right to nag!



This thread doesn't serve as a purpose, as its to do with some Pakistanis mocking Indian space launch failures in some thread. it could have had a better purpose though, like the importance of space program.


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## karan21

Let me say the purpose of thread was to tell Pakistanis that India today suffers extreme poverty. We r trying to build rockets and send man to space and simultaneously feed 1.3 billion nation. I don't care who is poorer India or Pakistan, the only thing the matters is that India tries but Pakistan never dares to. So stop trolling and bringing poverty in it. It will not change anything. We have 1.1 billion telecommunication connections in our country and 3rd largest smartphone market today is India. Our country depends a lot on agriculture and weather. We want to contribute in research in space, thats why we are sending moon, mars and astrophysics missions. This will benefit the entire world. 

Pakistan's contribution in this field is negative so why we have to listen to hate comments from such a country.

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> Let me say the purpose of thread was to tell Pakistanis that India today suffers extreme poverty. We r trying to build rockets and send man to space and simultaneously feed 1.3 billion nation. I don't care who is poorer India or Pakistan, the only thing the matters is that India tries but Pakistan never dares to. So stop trolling and bringing poverty in it. It will not change anything. We have 1.1 billion telecommunication connections in our country and 3rd largest smartphone market today is India. Our country depends a lot on agriculture and weather. We want to contribute in research in space, thats why we are sending moon, mars and astrophysics missions. This will benefit the entire world.
> 
> Pakistan's contribution in this field is negative so why we have to listen to hate comments from such a country.



Then don't come on a Pakistan Forum and troll.


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## karan21

Icewolf said:


> Then don't come on a Pakistan Forum and troll.



You literally destroyed the entire thread from page 3 to now. Thanks man, its because people like you that Pakistan today suffers.

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## EzioAltaïr

Icewolf said:


> Then don't come on a Pakistan Forum and troll.



You'll never learn. Your fellow Pakistani is so receptive to constructive criticism, why aren't you?


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## Hyperion

karan21 said:


> Pakistan's contribution in this field is negative so why we have to listen to hate comments from such a *country*.


Dude, don't generalize. What's up? I better just leave the god damn forum.

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## karan21

Hyperion said:


> Dude, don't generalize. What's up? I better just leave the god damn forum.


 

Sorry man, dont go we need good posters like you here. I know you are into engineering like me and appreciate developments happening in any part of the world. keep it up

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## ADAMANSKA

Why don't you guys ignore this retarded burfani bhediya and continue with the discussion? A simple ignore would make the quality of this forum a lot better. You won't see his retarded posts. He just seeks attention, like a spoilt kid who just needs 2 tight slaps on his face.

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## EzioAltaïr

ADAMANSKA said:


> Why don't you guys ignore this retarded burfani bhediya and continue with the discussion? A simple ignore would make the quality of this forum a lot better. You won't see his retarded posts. He just seeks attention, like a spoilt kid who just needs 2 tight slaps on his face.


 
Exactly let's continue the discussion.  I got carried away with that guy.


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## Hyperion

karan21 said:


> Sorry man, dont go we need good posters like you here. I know you are into engineering like me and appreciate developments happening in any part of the world. keep it up


Dude, I like this field as my father is also an engineer, he started his career at JPL in the 60's (end), he is retired now. I know at least 16 other uncles (father friends) who recently (2000 - 2005) retired from JPL/NASA etc.

We have crazy talent in Pakistan, only problem no one wants to build anything yet, and the saddest part is these people won't be there long to guide the nation. Imagine, thousand others just like them, if properly utilized, it wouldn't take long at ALL to enter the space age with a BANG!

Keep in persepective, until the early 2000's, Pakistani engineers were more than welcome @ Uncle Sam's top secret shops


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## karan21

Hyperion said:


> Dude, I like this field as my father is also an engineer, he started his career at JPL in the 60's (end), he is retired now. I know at least 16 other uncles (father friends) who recently (2000 - 2005) retired from JPL/NASA etc.
> 
> We have crazy talent in Pakistan, only problem no one wants to build anything yet, and the saddest part is these people won't be there long to guide the nation. Imagine, thousand others just like them, if properly utilized, it wouldn't take long at ALL to enter the space age with a BANG!
> 
> Keep in persepective, until the early 2000's, Pakistani engineers were more than welcome @ Uncle Sam's top secret shops


 

Dude the thing is unless we create world class competitive institutions in our countries all top talent will go out. 

As an Indian and an engineer from Canada I would prefer to join ISRO over any other organisation. It is just a matter of time now of a few years when it will launch human in space and join international space station. It is a proactive organisation working on forefront of space research or atleast trying to be. Pakistan needs to do something similiar so that the top talent stays home and innovates rather than going to america or europe or in future China. 

Building a small physics lab in a rented room can turn into a world class research institution in 40 yrs. Like Tata institute of Fundamental physics, where physicists from all over come to do research. India has a long way to go and these small steps taken at right time will give fruits. Time is running out for Pakistan right now.

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## Icewolf

karan21 said:


> You literally destroyed the entire thread from page 3 to now. Thanks man, its because people like you that Pakistan today suffers.


 
WE are doing alright. It's because of trolls like you India to this day suffers.


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## Indian Tiger

Congrats to ISRO!!! 

But i will not call this as a successful, we have failed to send our MMS and Italian waitress with this rocket. If we could have sent them with that, then India would have really shined and that will be the greatest job ever to do. ISRO, you missed it, angry on you!!!

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## Black Widow

Pakistan don't want to take any lesson, Thread closed...


What a stupid thread, A country need stability before having space programs. There are some priorities in nation building, Space program should not be Paistan'd priorities now...

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## Green Hornet

And for the rest of the pakistanis, please stop living in the dillusion that your country has great talant and its the politics that holding you back. There is no world class talent in pakistan, just the world class ego. The ony thing world class is the great terror factory of pakistan. Your iconic talent abdul kadir khan was termed as a nuclear smuggler and was house arrested. But our hero mr apj abdul kalam was made the president. This speaks volumes about your country. Great talent, what a joke!!


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## karan.1970

Hyperion said:


> Mate, don't be passive aggressive. If he did start it, why do you have to retaliate, why not be the bigger person?
> 
> This could have been an outstanding thread, the kid who started it is very informative in rocket propulsion and mild mannered. Why do others have to come and crap all over the thread. *We are not seven any more, are we?*


 
Talk about yourself.. I am still a kid 


Point taken

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## Agni5000

Indian Tiger said:


> Congrats to ISRO!!!
> 
> But i will not call this as a successful, we have failed to send our MMS and Italian waitress with this rocket. If we could have sent them with that, then India would have really shined and that will be the greatest job ever to do. ISRO, you missed it, angry on you!!!


 
you forgot yuvraj rahul.


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## karan21

Green Hornet said:


> And for the rest of the pakistanis, please stop living in the dillusion that your country has great talant and its the politics that holding you back. There is no world class talent in pakistan, just the world class ego. The ony thing world class is the great terror factory of pakistan. Your iconic talent abdul kadir khan was termed as a nuclear smuggler and was house arrested. But our hero mr apj abdul kalam was made the president. This speaks volumes about your country. Great talent, what a joke!!


 

Sorry to say but talent is born irrespective of country or religion. Pakistan has talent, but they will never get them. All nations have idiots and talented. In Pakistan Idiots rule and talented are house arrested and dont know what to do. 

Fortunately Indian politics is a mixture of idiots and talented thats why we know our priorities.

There are many Vikram sarabhais and kalams which keep coming up in Indian politics and guide our nation towards progress.


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## Icewolf

Green Hornet said:


> And for the rest of the pakistanis, please stop living in the dillusion that your country has great talant and its the politics that holding you back. There is no world class talent in pakistan, just the world class ego. The ony thing world class is the great terror factory of pakistan. Your iconic talent abdul kadir khan was termed as a nuclear smuggler and was house arrested. But our hero mr apj abdul kalam was made the president. This speaks volumes about your country. Great talent, what a joke!!


 
Nope, alot of people have talent. Im sure lots of slum dwellers in India have talent.. Indian govt just needs to give them a better life. Too bad India is a open air shithole and the worlds rape capital. On top of that, 5000 innocent children die everyday in India thanks to your poverty. Thanks for killing 5000 children everyday. Are you proud of it??



Black Widow said:


> Pakistan don't want to take any lesson, Thread closed...
> 
> 
> What a stupid thread,* A country need stability before having space programs.* There are some priorities in nation building, Space program should not be Paistan'd priorities now...


 
A country needs to atleast feed 70% of its population before thinking of wasting money on space programs and military. It can go both ways, son.


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## k&#7779;am&#257;

Last night when I checked it was a thread we were discussing technological breakthroughs but I donn wat happened it converted to a economy discussion then to a human nature and now to brain drain. Can't the so called senior posters stick to the topic.

And @kid from the OP, when u have a thread u started, donn comment back at those ppl who go off topic. This behavior instigates others to jump in, and drag the thread further from the theme. I think u knew that already, it was just a friendly reminder 4 u.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> How else would you distinguish a drama queen.....our Karan takes the lead in the field.



"personal attacks ... etc.. etc... "


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## Hope Loust II

RiazHaq said:


> ........ Proportion of stunted children in countries surveyed: Pakistan 42% (10.1M) of children stunted, Bangladesh 43% (7M), India 48% (60.5M), Nigeria 43% (10.9M), Peru 24% (712,560).............



This sounds about right, as it is related to what World Bank is reporting---


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## karan.1970

RiazHaq said:


> It only exists only in imagination. Here's the real data from 2012 Save the Children survey:



From the same report

Pakistan 2nd worst country in terms of acceptable diet for kids below 2 years.. India even in 2005 was better (7%) than Pakistan in 2011 (4%)


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## Hope Loust II

RiazHaq said:


> It's an indictment of HDI which puts a nation with higher poverty, greater hunger and worse sanitation higher than its neighbors......



First they got rid of Dr. Abdus Salam and denigrated all his important Nobel-prize winning work. 

Now they are going about denigrating the hard-work of Pakistan's most famous Economist by ridiculing his salient achievement in developing the HDI itself:

Mahbub ul Haq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is there no end to this? Why are Pakistanis always trying to drag down the achievements of other fellow-Pakistanis? Is Jealousy a culturally acceptable thing in Pakistan?


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## My-Analogous

gslv mk3 said:


> even after all this you cant understand eh?
> maximum payload even an ICBM like agni 5 can take to space is 50 kg(LEO)
> India have capability to send 5 tonnes to LEO...
> and it will be increased to 10 tonnes this year........
> we also have worlds third largest rocket booster ...
> and still you think your missiles are better than India???



The reason of Indian success is because India have an hands of Russia, whereas Pakistan don't have such luxuries.


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## nForce

ghazaliy2k said:


> The reason of Indian success is because India have an hands of Russia, whereas Pakistan don't have such luxuries.



You are ill informed...While you are correct that India was getting help from the Soviets,you overlook that at the same time Pakistan was being helped by the US,who had the technical upper edge over the Soviets.But Pakistan was mostly concerned with getting military technology and materials from US and even more so during Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.In the mean time,we were taking help from the Soviets in building our iron and steel plants.

You see,its all a matter of priority and planning.Its not like you did not have any options.There is always an option,its all about which one you choose.

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## k&#7779;am&#257;

ppl fail to realize that no one helped those big boys. And for a sustained and self reliance one needs to be self reliant. ISRO started after her sister organization in pak even then surpasses it by leaps and bounds. Every one will speculate we are painting US USSR rockets and sending them to space, but fact is ISRO has become one stop destination for many countries for small - mid weight sat launches. And it has emerged as expert in PSLV/GSLV launches by indigenous vehicles.


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## nForce

*This is how they started.....*































*This is how they dong it now*

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## Mitro

ghazaliy2k said:


> The reason of Indian success is because India have an hands of Russia, whereas Pakistan don't have such luxuries.



here you go bro 

U.S. Missile Nonproliferation Policy and India&#8217;s Path to an ICBM Capability Richard Speier
The path to India&#8217;s ICBM capability has spanned more than four decades and is largely based on space-launch vehicle technology obtained from foreign sources. The United States has taken measures over the last several decades to restrict missile proliferation, but the policies took effect only after India&#8217;s missile program had begun. Moreover, U.S. nonproliferation policy has also not been consistently applied, particularly in India&#8217;s case. Indeed, the relationship between space launch vehicles and missile proliferation seems to have been obscured.

1960s: NASA trains Indian scientists at Wallops Island, Virginia, in sounding rockets and provides Nike-Apache sounding rockets to India.[1] France, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union also supply sounding rockets.[2]
1963-1964: A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, an Indian engineer, works at Wallops Island, where the Scout space-launch vehicle (an adaptation of Minuteman ICBM solid-fuel rocket technology) is flown.[3]

1965: Following Kalam&#8217;s return to India, the Indian Atomic Energy Commission requests U.S. assistance with the Scout, and NASA provides unclassified reports.[4]

1969-1970: U.S. firms supply equipment for the Solid Propellant Space Booster Plant at Sriharikota.[5]

1970s: Kalam becomes head of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), in charge of developing space launch vehicles. During the same time period, the United States begins to consider a broad policy against missile proliferation.
May 1974: India conducts a &#8220;peaceful nuclear explosion.&#8221;
1980s: The United States and its six economic sum mit partners secretly negotiate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). After one and a half years of difficult negotiations on the question of space launch vehicles, all partners agree that they must be treated as restrictively as ballistic missiles because their hardware, technology, and production facilities are interchangeable. The MTCR is informally implemented in 1985 and is publicly announced in 1987.
July 1980: India launches its first satellite with the SLV-3 rocket, a close copy of the NASA Scout.[6]
February 1982: Kalam becomes head of the Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), in charge of adapting space-launch vehicle technology to ballistic missiles.
May 1989: India launches its first Agni &#8220;technology demonstrator&#8221; surface-to-surface missile. The Agni&#8217;s first stage is essentially the first stage of the SLV-3. Later, the Agni becomes a family of three short- to intermediate-range ballistic missiles.[7]
1990: The United States enacts a sanctions law against missile proliferation. Two weeks later, the Soviet Union agrees to supply India with cryogenic upper-stage rockets and technology, and the two parties become the first countries sanctioned under the new U.S. law.[8]
1993: The United States lifts sanctions on Russia after Moscow agrees to limit the transfer to a small number of rocket engines and not production technology.[9]
1994: India launches the Polar Space Launch Ve hicle (PSLV). Stages 1 and 3 are 2.8-meter-diameter solid-fuel rockets. Stages 2 and 4 are liquid-fuel Vikas engines derived from 1980s French technology transfers.
The earliest reported date for when the Surya ICBM program, using PSLV technology, is said to have been officially authorized. However, India&#8217;s space and missile en gineers, if not the &#8220;official&#8221; Indian government, had opened the option much earlier.
May 1998: India tests nuclear weapons after decades of protesting that its nuclear program was exclu sively peaceful. The United States imposes broad sanctions on nuclear- and missile/space-related transfers.
April 1999: India launches the Agni II, an extended range missile that tests re-entry vehicle &#8220;technology [that] can be integrated with the PSLV programme to create an ICBM&#8221; according to a defense ministry official.[10]
Kalam quoted in Jane&#8217;s Defence Weekly that he wants to &#8220;neutralise&#8221; the &#8220;stranglehold&#8221; some nations have through the MTCR, which had tried but failed to &#8220;throttle&#8221; India&#8217;s missile program. &#8220;I would like to devalue missiles by selling the technology to many nations and break their stranglehold.&#8221;[11]
May 1999: Defense News cites DRDO officials as stating that the Surya is under development.[12]
November 1999
India &#8216;s minister of state for defense (and former head of DRDO), Bachi Singh Rawat, says India is developing an ICBM known as Surya that would &#8220;have a range of up to&#8221; 5,000 kilometers. A little more than two weeks later, Rawat is reportedly stripped of his portfolio because of his disclosure.[13]
2000s
April 2001: Khrunichev State Space Science and Pro duction Center announces that it will supply five more cryogenic upper stages to India within the next three years.[14]
September 2001
The United States lifts many of the technology sanctions it imposed in 1998. Subsequently, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee visits the United States amid agreement to broaden the technology dialogue.
December 2001: A U.S. National Intelligence Estimate states, &#8221; India could convert its polar space launch vehicle into an ICBM within a year or two of a decision to do so.&#8221;[15]
July 2002: Kalam becomes president of India.
September 2002: The United States tells India it will not object to India launching foreign satellites as long as they do not contain U.S.-origin components.[16]
April 2003: The last mention of India as a proliferator or a supplier to proliferators is made in the director of central intelligence&#8217;s unclassified semi-annual report to Congress on the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction.[17]
January 2004: President George W. Bush agrees to expand cooperation with India in &#8220;civilian space programs&#8221; but not explicitly to cooperate with space launches. This measure is part of a bilateral initiative dubbed &#8220;Next Steps in Strategic Partnership.&#8221;[18]
October 2004
A Russian Academy of Sciences deputy director reportedly states that India is planning to increase the range of the Agni missile to 5,000 kilometers and to design the Surya ICBM with a range of 8,000-12,000 kilometers.[19]
July 2005: Bush agrees to cooperate with India on &#8220;satellite navigation and launch,&#8221; and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh agrees to &#8220;adherence to Missile Technology Control Regime&#8230;guidelines.&#8221;[20]
August 2005: According to Indian Ministry of Defense sources, there are plans to use the noncryogenic Vikas stage for the Surya and to have the missile deliver a 2.5-3.5-metric-ton payload with two or three warheads with explosive yields of 15-20 kilotons.[21]


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## Hope Loust II

Icewolf said:


> No offense, but India can't even build a jet engine, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that India made a rocket engine before a jet engine.



1) Rocket engines (not cryogenic ones, just regular solid & liquid fuel ones) have been around a lot longer than Jet engines. Jet engines are more complex and difficult to make than regular Rocket engines. 

If you meant specifically "cryogenic rocket engines" when you said "rocket engines", then:

2) There are no international restrictions on transfer or sale jet engines. Anyone can buy them at any time from France, Russia, US, Canada, UK. However, there are severe restrictions on international sale or transfer of cryogenic rocket engines. So people who want cryogenic rocket engines have no choice but to build their own.

Note that even China still does not have a reliable jet engines and continues to use Russian-made ones; whereas China makes its own cryogenic rocket engines on "high-priority" basis as it is not available from outside.

Hope that clarifies the situation. 

Glad to be back.

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## Hope Loust II

Icewolf said:


> Nope, alot of people have talent. Im sure lots of slum dwellers in India have talent.. Indian govt just needs to give them a better life. Too bad India is a open air shithole and the worlds rape capital. On top of that, 5000 innocent children die everyday in India thanks to your poverty. Thanks for killing 5000 children everyday. Are you proud of it??
> 
> What you say may be true for military rocket programs under certain circumstances, but it is not true for civilian launcher & satellite programs.
> 
> A country needs to atleast feed 70% of its population before thinking of wasting money on space programs and military. It can go both ways, son.



1) Even if a country like India eliminates its entire space program, it will not make a dent in the social issues of poverty. The question is one of scale. The entire space program in India & China is probably 1-5 Billion$ a year (India at lower end and China at higher end). So it is about 1$ per person per year and eliminating it will not make any difference whatsoever; most likely this sum would have been lost in all the corruption & inefficiencies of their subsidies-for-the-poor program.

2) Most space programs pay for themselves. A country without a space program will have to either use another country's satellite systems (weather, agriculture, communication et cetera) or have another country launch an imported satellite. These recurring current account costs turn out to be more expensive in the long run than learning to do it yourself. For countries of the size of India and China, their space programs actually generate a profit in terms of positive externalities for their countries.

However, for a smaller country like Pakistan, you are correct, that it might not be cost-effective to have its own space program. It may be more efficient to pay China to use their and let them make a profit.....

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## Water Car Engineer

Yeah sure, everyone just totally helped India build up it's space capability.

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## gslv mk3



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