# Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions



## monitor

*Pakistan Pushes Artillery Upgrade Program*

By Usman Ansari
Published: 10 October 2011


ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is consolidating its howitzer inventory around the 155mm round and increasing its MRLS fleet as it strives to boost the lethality of its artillery against India.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad and South Asia analyst, said the Army has been modernizing its artillery in recent years as it plans to increase fully mechanized formations.

"There was no apocalyptic moment; it came about because of a normal reassessment of tactics and strategy consistent with the doctrine of 'hold and strike.' For rapid, if deliberately limited, advance, [self propelled] artillery is vital," Cloughley said.

The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the 155mm Panter howitzer has been a substantial improvement over existing guns.

He cites a combination of the Turkish Panter, with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, as improving the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery "under a variety of weather conditions at all ranges."

Cloughley highlights a mid-2008 deal with Nexter for the production of 155mm artillery rounds, plus the acquisition of 10 Turkish artillery simulators, which began to enter service with the School of Artillery in 2008 in this regard.

Investment also has been made in long-range MLRS capability. This included evaluation and then procurement of 36 Chinese AR1A/A100E 300mm MLRSs - first displayed to the public during last year's New Resolve military maneuvers.

"Even though [the Army has] a wide array of short-range ballistic missiles, it wanted a larger caliber long-range MRLS capable of firing smart submunitions," Khan said.

This led to the evaluation of the Chinese Wei Shi series of MRLS and signing of a contract with China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. in 2009 to procure the NORINCO-developed 300mm MLRS, he said.

The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.

Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.

While the Army is "reasonably satisfied with its artillery assets," Cloughley said, the artillery modernization program is ongoing and the Army wants "more, and better, equipment."

This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.

Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.

The Army's artillery in Kashmir, especially in more remote locations, has been transported by helicopter and the ammunition by mule train. A wheeled, self-propelled howitzer would therefore be welcome, he said.

Further developments may also be forthcoming for rocket artillery. Cloughley said there is an indigenous MLRS program called Azar, which he said is "similar to the Chinese Type 81" 122mm MLRS. Pakistan's current 122mm Grad-type MLRS is an indigenously produced variant of the North Korean BM-11, and Pakistan Ordnance Factories has developed a high-explosive 122mm rocket called Yarmuk for the system.

Another area Cloughley cites that has not received much attention is the need for a self-propelled mortar system to equip the mechanized infantry formations and provide firepower to complement the self-propelled howitzers. Improving the self-propelled howitzer assets has been the primary goal, however, so little has been done to boost mortar capabilities. Ë

Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...42&c=FEA&s=SPE

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## Areesh

> The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.
> *
> Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.*



I love this bold part.

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## TOPGUN

Awsome news thx for sharing .

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

While its a key component in war, we really need to move to 21st century weapons , such as smart bombs , automatic loading artillery - and ideally SAMs 

These artillery units are sitting ducks from threat from air and helicopters

But its still wonderful that , we are self reliant in this key technology area

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## VelocuR

> This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.
> 
> Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.















The SH1 self-propelled howitzer was developed by NORINCO for the export market. Development of this artillery system commenced in 2002. It was first revealed in 2007. Details of this artillery system were released at the same time as were details of the smaller SH2 122-mm truck-mounted howitzer. *Pakistan acquired approximately 90 SH-1 truck-mounted howitzers.* It may also enter service with the Chinese Army in the near future.

The SH1 is armed with a 155-mm / L52 howitzer. It is compatible with all standard 155-mm NATO ammunition, as well as ammunition developed by NORINCO. Claimed maximum range of fire is 53 km which was achieved with a rocket assisted V-LAP projectile using charge zone 10. In addition this artillery system is able to use indigenous precision guided munitions, based on the Russian Krasnopol technology.

Ammunition box of the SH-1 artillery system houses 25 rounds of seven different types and their modular charges.

Before firing a large spade is lowered to the ground. It provides more stable firing platform.

The SH1 is fitted with a computerized fire control system, navigation, positioning and targeting systems. Vehicle receives target information from artillery command vehicle.

Secondary armament consists of a 12.7-mm machine gun, mounted on top of the roof.

Vehicle has a crew of five. An armored driving cab provides protection against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters.

The SH1 artillery system uses 6x6 truck chassis. Vehicle can be airlifted by most medium transport aircraft.

A complete SH-1 regiment comprises 24 truck-mounted howitzers, four battery command post vehicles, one battalion command post vehicle, one meteorological radar, four 6x6 wheeled reconnaissance vehicles and one artillery locating radar.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/sh1.htm

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## S-A-B-E-R->

i never knew we had these 
SLC-2 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## jha

Good...This should wake up the lazy @$$es in India....

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## S-A-B-E-R->

jha said:


> Good...This should wake up the lazy @$$es in India....


i herd india was modrenising its Big guns?


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## Areesh

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i never knew we had these
> SLC-2 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yup they were shown in the last Azm E Nau war games.

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## fatman17

nothing new in that article - all procurement has been reported 'seperately' in land forces section. all UA has done is to 'summarize' it in one article.!

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## jha

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i herd india was modrenising its Big guns?



Nothing is moving..The BOFORS Scandal ghost has still not left the Ministry..
Around 3000 New Howitzers are to be inducted and not a single gun has been purchased in last 25 years...

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## Mosamania

I love the artillery and frankly I see it one of the Big Five in any war. A must have. Good luck Pakistan on making your own Artillery guns and hopefully you will find a customer for it in us. That of course if we did not start making our own by then

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## Cool_Soldier

PA should have precsiion strike MLRS.anyway nice progress in this field.keep it up Army.  ...


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## Jango

we are going to produce MKEK Panter at HIT?

Other than this, nothing new here.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i herd india was modrenising its Big guns?



there was some tender to acquire from USA , dunno where that went


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Syama Ayas said:


> there was some tender to acquire from USA , dunno where that went



I think Drain!!

@news...

Good for pakistan....155mm howitzer is lethal weapon. 

I wish our leaders should learn about weapon procurement from pakistan.

Lazy corrupt a$$!!


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## Jango

B_R_I_C said:


> I think Drain!!
> 
> @news...
> 
> Good for pakistan....155mm howitzer is lethal weapon.
> 
> I wish our leaders should learn about weapon procurement from pakistan.
> 
> Lazy corrupt a$$!!



You people were buying the ultra light M777 if i am not wrong. What really happened to it. Fell off, or still there in the drain?


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## Last Hope

Artillery is awesome. Great news for our Artillery unit.

I remember, when I was out there, the noise from those guns nearly made me deaf. I have now got problem hearing.

Anyways, I assume the guns would be commissioned for the first time in fight against Taliban. Artillery and air attack is the only thing that works there. Even air strikes are not as helpful as artillery. Need to build it up. Seems like we learned the lesson from Kargil now.

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## niaz

Understand towed Howitzers are very vulnerable to the Artillery locating radars. Israel armed forces are therefore consolidating to SP artillery only. Towed artillery is confined to light air transportable 105 How's.

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## Cool_Soldier

Today, in my previous post i wish Pak Army should have precision guided MRLS and another thread says today that Pakistan is going to mass produced licensed based A-100E guided MRLS with 120Km range..I am happy to hear that

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## RedBeard

*T-155 Panter*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Another news about arty:



> The official said that after delivering 50 tank guns, the HMC plans to produce artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.


Pakistan Produces Indigenous 125 Millimetre Tank Gun For Al-Khalid Tank ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


*Also its awesome to see Pakistan producing the latest variants of A-100,panter,AZAR-KRLS-122MM and now indigenous arty guns!*

Indigenous arty gus all the way..

*
Abt the Azar MLRS... Well its range was extended to 40 KM along with a precision GPRS kinda thingy was installed with help from a french company*.

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## Major Sam

any one knows abt the current status


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## Manticore

T155 Panter.




a100




M109




M110 








SH1

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## Hulk

nuclearpak said:


> You people were buying the ultra light M777 if i am not wrong. What really happened to it. Fell off, or still there in the drain?


 
work in progress for m777, I will not reveal it here, I know from horses mouth. Things will progress in December.

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## Manticore

Pakistani 155mm base-bleed shell jointly produced with Poongsan

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## Manticore

Pakistan - M109A2 -150 

Pakistan - M109A5 -115 

[new numbers give a total of 315]



> The M109A2
> This model entered production with the BMY Combat Systems in 1978, with the US Army taking delivery in 1979. It was fitted with a new M185 main gun and other improvements known as the &#8220;incorporated 27 mid-life&#8221; which includes:
> 1. redesigned rammer and improved recoil mechanism,
> 2. engine operation warning devices,
> 3. a redesigned hatch and door latches,
> 4. an improved hydraulic system
> 5. bustle designed to carry an additional 22 rounds of ammunition
> 
> 
> 
> The M109A5
> These improvements provide the M109A5 with greater range and allow for sustained fire for prolonged periods of time.
> The US M109 series Self Propelled Gun





All PA M109 have/are being upgraded to A5 standard






PLZ-45
Potential Operators-Pakistan

Any pics of pakistani M198 howitzer?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Do add to ur post tht the A2s have bee upgraded with the new A5 upgrade kits....


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## SEAL

Can't wait to see SH1 with PA.


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## monitor

*M198 howitzer*
Development 





Development of a 155 mm howitzer to replace the 155 mm howitzer M114/M114A1 began in 1968 under the direction of the Project Manager for Cannon Artillery Weapon Systems of the United States Army Armament Command at Rock Island, Illinois. A test rig was built to demonstrate how a lightweight towed 155 mm howitzer could fire the increased range of ammunition, with reasonable probability of stable dynamics and structural soundness. Design and fabrication of an advanced development prototype began in 1969 and firing trials commenced in 1970. Rock Island was responsible for the carriage and recoil mechanism, Frankford Arsenal for the fire-control equipment, Watervliet Arsenal for the ordnance and Picatinny Arsenal and the Harry Diamond Laboratory for the ammunition. The first two prototypes were delivered in April and May 1972 and were followed by a further eight prototypes. After trials, the XM198 was standardised as the M198, and production commenced at Rock Island Arsenal in 1978 with first production weapons completed in July 1978. Since then large numbers have been built for the home and export markets but there has been no US Army funding since FY82. 

The M198 replaced M114A1s in separate field artillery batteries assigned to corps/army and the general support field artillery battalions of the light divisions. It is deployed in 24 gun battalions, with every battalion having three batteries each with eight guns. The first battalion of M198s became operational at Fort Bragg in April 1979. The first Marine Corps battalion to be equipped with the M198 was the 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines, at Camp Lejeune. Production of the M198 was carried out at Rock Island Arsenal which also manufactured all components with the exception of the ordnance (which comes from Watervliet Arsenal), fire-control system and tyres. In February 1992, the 1,672nd M198 rolled off the production line at Rock Island Arsenal. During FY91, a total of 120 was manufactured followed by 120 M198s in FY92. In early 1993, the US Army had 745 systems in service, with the Marine Corps having an additional 566 weapons. Both these figures include reserve systems. In June 1992, Watervliet Arsenal was awarded a $5.402 million increment as part of a $5.509 million firm fixed price contract for 292 product improvement kits for the M198 towed howitzer with all work completed by April 1995. In December 1993, Watervliet Arsenal was awarded a $5.525 million increment as part of a $10.730 million firm fixed price contract for 602 product improvement kits for the M198 towed howitzer (quantity increased from the original 292) with the work completed by April 1995. Production of the M198 has now been completed although it could commence again if further orders were placed. In US Army service the 155 mm M198 will be supplemented by the Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Limited 155 mm Ultralightweight Field Howitzer which was selected in March 1997 following extensive trials with competing weapons. 

Description 

The weapon is mounted on a split trail carriage, fitted with a two-position rigid suspension system which can be rotated upwards to raise the wheels. This allows the weapon to rest on a non-anchored firing platform. When travelling the ordnance remains forward, but for storage it can be traversed through 180° and locked in position over the trails. The carriage consists of the top carriage, elevating mechanism, equilibrators, traversing mechanism, bottom carriage, wheel suspension assembly, speed shift, trails and firing base. An auxiliary power unit, the MC-4000, has been developed for use on the M198 during amphibious operations, but no procurement decision has yet been made. The recoil mechanism is of the hydropneumatic type with a variable recoil length. The autofrettaged ordnance has a screw-on double-baffle muzzle brake, and a screw breech mechanism with a conventional obturator pad and split ring seal obturator. The fire-control equipment includes an M137 panoramic telescope with a magnification of x4 and a 10° field of view, two elevation quadrants (M17 and M18) and an M138 elbow telescope with a magnification of x8 and a 6° field of view. The internal configuration of the Cannon Assembly M199 is in accordance with the German/British/American/Italian quadrilateral agreement and will fire all current standard and developmental ammunition of the anti-material and anti-personnel types. The weapon can fire the following types of ammunition: 

Anti-tank (M718) (containing nine anti-tank mines) with the projectile weighing 46.72 kg and a muzzle velocity of 660 m/s and a maximum range of 17,740 m 

Anti-tank (M741) (containing nine anti-tank mines) with the projectile weighing 46.72 kg, muzzle velocity of 660 m/s and a maximum range of 17,740 m 

Copperhead Cannon Launch Guided Projectile (M712) to a range of 16,400 m 

HE (M107) with the projectile weighing 42.91 kg, muzzle velocity of 684.3 m/s and maximum range of 18,100 m

HE (M449) (containing 60 anti-personnel grenades) with the projectile weighing 43.09 kg and a maximum range of 18,100 m

HE (M483) (containing 88 dual-purpose grenades) with the projectile weighing 46.53 kg, muzzle velocity of 660 m/s and maximum range of 17,500 m

HE (M692) (containing 36 anti-personnel mines) with the projectile weighing 46.5 kg, muzzle velocity of 660 m/s and a maximum range of 17,740 m

HE (M731) (containing 36 anti-personnel mines) with the projectile weighing 46.5 kg, muzzle velocity of 660 m/s and a maximum range of 17,740 m

HE (M795), registration projectile for M483 and maximum range of 22,400 m

HERA (M549 series) (RAP) with the projectile weighing 43.54 kg, maximum muzzle velocity of 826 m/s and maximum range of 30,000 m

DPICM (Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munition) M864 (type-classified late in 1987)

Illuminating (M118 series) with the projectile weighing 46.26 kg, muzzle velocity of 684.3 m/s and maximum range of 18,100 m

Illuminating (M485 series) with the projectile weighing 41.73 kg, muzzle velocity of 684 m/s and maximum range of 17,500 m

REMBASS (XM694E1), under development

Smoke WP (M110 series) with the projectile weighing 44.4 kg, muzzle velocity of 684.3 m/s and maximum range of 18,100 m

Smoke BE (M116 series) with the projectile weighing 42.22 kg, muzzle velocity of 684.3 m/s and maximum range of 18,100 m

Smoke (M825), base ejection, with a muzzle velocity of 797 m/s and a maximum range of 22,600 m


Improved M198 

Late in 1994, it was stated that the US Army and Marine Corps were considering a number of improvements to the 155 mm M198 towed howitzer. These include an electronic fire-control system, automatic digital interface, faster primer loader or laser ignition, projectile load assist mechanism and power suspension. By mid-1997, none of these proposed improvements had been carried out to the M198. In 1995 however, it was decided that the US Marine Corps fleet of 601 M198s would receive 27 separate modifications to increase safety, enhance transport, reduce cyclical repairs and extend the serviceable life of the howitzers. All these modifications were carried out by January 1997 under the M198 Product Improvement Program (PIP). 

Extended Range Modification Program 

TEXT : Rock Island Arsenal has proposed a new extended-range cannon programme to increase the range of the M198 without sacrificing weight. Listed below are some of the key features of the upgrade programme:

(1) Increased range using a new 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance. This will enable a range of 30,000 m to be achieved using unassisted ammunition, 37,500 m using the M549 RAP and 40 to 50 km using a future RAP/BB projectile
(2) Maintains current system weight
(3) Minimised retrofit cost
(4) Achieved compatibility with future advanced armament
(5) Maintains existing logistic support and training needs
(6) Extends useful life of the M198 howitzer

M198 with computer 

In mid-1997, four M198s fitted with a computer system and a hydraulic emplacement pump that allow quicker firing and wider dispersion were undergoing trials with the US Marines. The computer system consists of a Global Positioning System (GPS) and an Aiming Pointing System (APS). As the M198 is fitted with a GPS it always knows its location. The APS contains a ring laser gyrocompass used for direction finding and this also allows the howitzer to know which way it is pointing. 

The M198 section chief now uses a hand-held navigator called a plugger to position the gun and communicate with the fire direction centre. The hydraulic emplacement pump helps the howitzer team to move faster from one firing position to the next so making the weapon more survivable. 

SPECIFICATIONS : 

Calibre: 155 mm
Barrel length: 6.096 m
Muzzle brake: double-baffle
Recoil: hydropneumatic
Breech mechanism: screw
Carriage: split trail
Shield: no
Weight:
(travelling order) 7,163 kg
(firing position) 7,163 kg
Length:
(travelling) 12.34 m
(firing) 11 m
(with ordnance over trails) 7.44 m
Width:
(travelling) 2.794 m
(firing) 8.534 m
Height:
(travelling) 2.9 m
(min firing) 1.803 m
(with ordnance over trails) 2.121 m
Ground clearance:
(travelling) 0.33 m
Track: 2.362 m
Tyres: 16.5 x 19.5
Elevation/depression: +72°/-5°
Traverse:
(total) 45°
Rate of fire: 4 rds/min
Max range:
(M107 projectile) 18,150 m (Z8 charge)
(M483A1 projectile) 22,000 m (Z8C charge)
(M549A1 RAP) 30,000 m (Z8S charge)
Towing speed:
(cross-country) 8 km/h
(improved roads) 72 km/h
(secondary roads) 40 to 48 km/h
Crew: 11
Towing vehicle: M939 5 ton (6 x 6) truck

Status : Pakistan 95 plus 24 delivered in 1997 

COMPANY NAME : Rock Island Arsenal

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## Manticore

i was wondering why pa didnt go for T-155 F&#305;rt&#305;na / k9 instead of SH1


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## SEAL

ANTIBODY said:


> i was wondering why pa didnt go for T-155 F&#305;rt&#305;na / k9 instead of SH1


 
SH1 is mounted on truck you can take where ever you want from plain areas of Punjab to the hilly regions, T-155 is different.

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## nomi007

what ever be purchase but be sure that be the under the transfer of technology

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## Rafi

Pakistan Pushes Artillery Upgrade Program

By Usman Ansari
Published: 10 October 2011
Print Email
Bookmark and Share

*ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is consolidating its howitzer inventory around the 155mm round and increasing its MRLS fleet as it strives to boost the lethality of its artillery against India.*

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad and South Asia analyst, said the Army has been modernizing its artillery in recent years as it plans to increase fully mechanized formations.

"There was no apocalyptic moment; it came about because of a normal reassessment of tactics and strategy consistent with the doctrine of 'hold and strike.' For rapid, if deliberately limited, advance, [self propelled] artillery is vital," Cloughley said.

The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, *and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.*

*Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the 155mm Panter howitzer has been a substantial improvement over existing guns.

He cites a combination of the Turkish Panter, with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, as improving the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery "under a variety of weather conditions at all ranges."*

Cloughley highlights a mid-2008 deal with Nexter for the production of 155mm artillery rounds, plus the acquisition of 10 Turkish artillery simulators, which began to enter service with the School of Artillery in 2008 in this regard.

Investment also has been made in long-range MLRS capability. This included evaluation and then procurement of 36 Chinese AR1A/A100E 300mm MLRSs - first displayed to the public during last year's New Resolve military maneuvers.

"Even though [the Army has] a wide array of short-range ballistic missiles, it wanted a larger caliber long-range MRLS capable of firing smart submunitions," Khan said.

This led to the evaluation of the Chinese Wei Shi series of MRLS and signing of a contract with China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. in 2009 to procure the NORINCO-developed 300mm MLRS, he said.

The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.

Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.

While the Army is "reasonably satisfied with its artillery assets," Cloughley said, the artillery modernization program is ongoing and the Army wants "more, and better, equipment."

This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.

Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.

The Army's artillery in Kashmir, especially in more remote locations, has been transported by helicopter and the ammunition by mule train. A wheeled, self-propelled howitzer would therefore be welcome, he said.

Further developments may also be forthcoming for rocket artillery. Cloughley said there is an indigenous MLRS program called Azar, which he said is "similar to the Chinese Type 81" 122mm MLRS. Pakistan's current 122mm Grad-type MLRS is an indigenously produced variant of the North Korean BM-11, and Pakistan Ordnance Factories has developed a high-explosive 122mm rocket called Yarmuk for the system.

Another area Cloughley cites that has not received much attention is the need for a self-propelled mortar system to equip the mechanized infantry formations and provide firepower to complement the self-propelled howitzers. Improving the self-propelled howitzer assets has been the primary goal, however, so little has been done to boost mortar capabilities. Ë

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...42&c=FEA&s=SPE

Pakistani New Artillery gun demonstration, thanks to our Turkish brothers also. 






* Weapon has some self propelled ability.
* Automated so needs less crew.
* Has long range capability.

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## fd24

GreaT post brother!!
Welcome back brother Rafi you have been dearly missed by all. Great to have you back!

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## Desert Fox

Yar!!! Thanks for this good news, we need more artillery units if we're going to inflict heavy casualties on those indian IBG's in an event of war.

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## Rafi

superkaif said:


> GreaT thread brother!!
> Welcome back brother Rafi you have been dearly missed by all. Great to have you back!



Thank you brother, missed you and all my fellow brothers in arms.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

welcome back RAFI BRO... 


nice thread..... but it has been posted before.

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## Rafi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> welcome back RAFI BRO...
> 
> 
> nice thread..... but it has been posted before.



My bad, but I don't think the Panter video has been posted before, it is one cool piece of kit, you being the son of a Artillery man can appreciate it more than most.

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## BATMAN

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i herd india was modrenising its Big guns?



Your Avatar says 'do not feed the troll' and yet you just did it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rafi said:


> My bad, but I don't think the Panter video has been posted before, it is one cool piece of kit, you being the son of a Artillery man can appreciate it more than most.



Thank you for the demo though...

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## S-A-B-E-R->

BATMAN said:


> Your Avatar says 'do not feed the troll' and yet you just did it.


sorry if u felt like that but it was a question on the matter that we always had some superiority in this matter so y is or enemy lagging behing?


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## Imran Khan

rafi one of few nice members man .rafi bhai control emotions for avoid such bans please .and yes great news really what is update of pak-korea artillery 155mm made in pakistan ?

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## Rafi

Imran Khan said:


> rafi one of few nice members man .rafi bhai control emotions for avoid such bans please .and yes great news really what is update of pak-korea artillery 155mm made in pakistan ?



It is being made in Wah, brother it is awesome - we are making cargo rounds with sub munitions that can wipe out a whole column in this we are streets ahead of the indians.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Rafi said:


> It is being made in Wah, brother it is awesome - we are making cargo rounds with sub munitions that can wipe out a whole column in this we are streets ahead of the indians.


can u tell us about a100e mlrs are we producing them home ......?

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## Rafi

wasm95 said:


> can u tell us about a100e mlrs are we producing them home ......?



Process has started, we might also manufacture Chinese wheel based self propelled howitzer, artillery is going from strength to strength.


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## Areesh

Rafi said:


> It is being made in Wah, brother it is awesome - we are making cargo rounds with sub munitions that can wipe out a whole column in this we are streets ahead of the indians.


 
Rafi. Please share some info about this Pak-Korea artillery gun.


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## Rafi

Areesh said:


> Rafi. Please share some info about this Pak-Korea artillery gun.







Army includes Cargo, includes advanced CARGO rounds, (shells that deploy sub-munitions, that destroy massed armor and infantry.)

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## Perceptron

Rafi said:


> Pakistan Pushes Artillery Upgrade Program
> 
> By Usman Ansari
> Published: 10 October 2011
> Print Email
> Bookmark and Share
> 
> *ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is consolidating its howitzer inventory around the 155mm round and increasing its MRLS fleet as it strives to boost the lethality of its artillery against India.*
> 
> Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad and South Asia analyst, said the Army has been modernizing its artillery in recent years as it plans to increase fully mechanized formations.
> 
> "There was no apocalyptic moment; it came about because of a normal reassessment of tactics and strategy consistent with the doctrine of 'hold and strike.' For rapid, if deliberately limited, advance, [self propelled] artillery is vital," Cloughley said.
> 
> The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, *and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.*
> 
> *Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the 155mm Panter howitzer has been a substantial improvement over existing guns.
> 
> He cites a combination of the Turkish Panter, with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, as improving the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery "under a variety of weather conditions at all ranges."*
> 
> Cloughley highlights a mid-2008 deal with Nexter for the production of 155mm artillery rounds, plus the acquisition of 10 Turkish artillery simulators, which began to enter service with the School of Artillery in 2008 in this regard.
> 
> Investment also has been made in long-range MLRS capability. This included evaluation and then procurement of 36 Chinese AR1A/A100E 300mm MLRSs - first displayed to the public during last year's New Resolve military maneuvers.
> 
> "Even though [the Army has] a wide array of short-range ballistic missiles, it wanted a larger caliber long-range MRLS capable of firing smart submunitions," Khan said.
> 
> This led to the evaluation of the Chinese Wei Shi series of MRLS and signing of a contract with China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. in 2009 to procure the NORINCO-developed 300mm MLRS, he said.
> 
> The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.
> 
> Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.
> 
> While the Army is "reasonably satisfied with its artillery assets," Cloughley said, the artillery modernization program is ongoing and the Army wants "more, and better, equipment."
> 
> This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.
> 
> Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.
> 
> The Army's artillery in Kashmir, especially in more remote locations, has been transported by helicopter and the ammunition by mule train. A wheeled, self-propelled howitzer would therefore be welcome, he said.
> 
> Further developments may also be forthcoming for rocket artillery. Cloughley said there is an indigenous MLRS program called Azar, which he said is "similar to the Chinese Type 81" 122mm MLRS. Pakistan's current 122mm Grad-type MLRS is an indigenously produced variant of the North Korean BM-11, and Pakistan Ordnance Factories has developed a high-explosive 122mm rocket called Yarmuk for the system.
> 
> Another area Cloughley cites that has not received much attention is the need for a self-propelled mortar system to equip the mechanized infantry formations and provide firepower to complement the self-propelled howitzers. Improving the self-propelled howitzer assets has been the primary goal, however, so little has been done to boost mortar capabilities. Ë
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...42&c=FEA&s=SPE


Wonderful developments by Pakistan, where i have always felt that PA holds the upper-edge. Can you give me a general idea on the Artillery doctrine of PA ? How does Panther complement/supplement the MLRS Smerch derivatives ? Can someone compare and contrast the Range/CEP/Cyclical rate of both these systems ?


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## Rafi

Perceptron said:


> Wonderful developments by Pakistan, where i have always felt that PA holds the upper-edge. Can you give me a general idea on the Artillery doctrine of PA ? How does Panther complement/supplement the MLRS Smerch derivatives ? Can someone compare and contrast the Range/CEP/Cyclical rate of both these systems ?



Perceptron - the MLRS - would engage installations and massed formations - whereas - the 155mm artillery would be used for more tactical purposes, another reason for Panter and SH-1 is the automation of these systems - means less soldiers can have more affect.

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## Cool_Soldier

Azar System is under development?


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## Zarvan

monitor said:


> *Pakistan Pushes Artillery Upgrade Program*
> 
> By Usman Ansari
> Published: 10 October 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is consolidating its howitzer inventory around the 155mm round and increasing its MRLS fleet as it strives to boost the lethality of its artillery against India.
> 
> Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad and South Asia analyst, said the Army has been modernizing its artillery in recent years as it plans to increase fully mechanized formations.
> 
> "There was no apocalyptic moment; it came about because of a normal reassessment of tactics and strategy consistent with the doctrine of 'hold and strike.' For rapid, if deliberately limited, advance, [self propelled] artillery is vital," Cloughley said.
> 
> The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.
> 
> Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the 155mm Panter howitzer has been a substantial improvement over existing guns.
> 
> He cites a combination of the Turkish Panter, with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, as improving the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery "under a variety of weather conditions at all ranges."
> 
> Cloughley highlights a mid-2008 deal with Nexter for the production of 155mm artillery rounds, plus the acquisition of 10 Turkish artillery simulators, which began to enter service with the School of Artillery in 2008 in this regard.
> 
> Investment also has been made in long-range MLRS capability. This included evaluation and then procurement of 36 Chinese AR1A/A100E 300mm MLRSs - first displayed to the public during last year's New Resolve military maneuvers.
> 
> "Even though [the Army has] a wide array of short-range ballistic missiles, it wanted a larger caliber long-range MRLS capable of firing smart submunitions," Khan said.
> 
> This led to the evaluation of the Chinese Wei Shi series of MRLS and signing of a contract with China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. in 2009 to procure the NORINCO-developed 300mm MLRS, he said.
> 
> The system differs from previous Chinese 300mm MLRS types that were modeled on the Russian Smerch rocket artillery by having 10 instead of 12 tubes. However, the new arrangement of two five-tube pods allows for faster reloading.
> 
> Khan said the Army is "very pleased" with the system, and additional numbers are being procured. Having hitherto only imported the system, Khan said, the Army would like to shift to indigenous production.
> 
> While the Army is "reasonably satisfied with its artillery assets," Cloughley said, the artillery modernization program is ongoing and the Army wants "more, and better, equipment."
> 
> This could lead to a future order for about 90 NORINCO SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzers, two of which were tested in 2008, he said.
> 
> Being a more deployable six-wheel-drive platform, the SH-1 could considerably boost the Army's ability to deter Indian aggression in Kashmir, where road improvements have been undertaken, Khan said.
> 
> The Army's artillery in Kashmir, especially in more remote locations, has been transported by helicopter and the ammunition by mule train. A wheeled, self-propelled howitzer would therefore be welcome, he said.
> 
> Further developments may also be forthcoming for rocket artillery. Cloughley said there is an indigenous MLRS program called Azar, which he said is "similar to the Chinese Type 81" 122mm MLRS. Pakistan's current 122mm Grad-type MLRS is an indigenously produced variant of the North Korean BM-11, and Pakistan Ordnance Factories has developed a high-explosive 122mm rocket called Yarmuk for the system.
> 
> Another area Cloughley cites that has not received much attention is the need for a self-propelled mortar system to equip the mechanized infantry formations and provide firepower to complement the self-propelled howitzers. Improving the self-propelled howitzer assets has been the primary goal, however, so little has been done to boost mortar capabilities. Ë
> 
> Email: uansari@defensenews.com.
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...42&c=FEA&s=SPE


Army should go for more Chinees MRLS as well as Artillery


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## Zarvan

Mosamania said:


> I love the artillery and frankly I see it one of the Big Five in any war. A must have. Good luck Pakistan on making your own Artillery guns and hopefully you will find a customer for it in us. That of course if we did not start making our own by then


Sir what Kind of Artillery Saudi Army uses by the way Has Pakistan already acquired SH-1 Guns or it is still evaluating by thy way Pakistan should get every Artillery with TOT

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## Zarvan

According to wikkipedia Pakistan has above 800 M-109 and 220 SH-1 Artillery and also 512 Panther
Pakistan Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Manticore

guys , please go through the first 2pages of the thread before reposting


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## Zarvan

ANTIBODY said:


> guys , please go through the first 2pages of the thread before reposting


Sir How Many SH-1 Pakistan have to this date and has Pakistan started its Mass Production in Pakistan


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## Manticore

my info in the matter is limited to wiki-- pak is concentrating on gradually manufacturing a100 and panther 40 units? --to my limited knowledge


sir fatman can provide far better insight

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## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> According to wikkipedia Pakistan has above 800 M-109 and 220 SH-1 Artillery and also 512 Panther
> Pakistan Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


i know about 90 sh1 which we have already procured and by the way who believes in wiki everyday the data changes there


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## Dr. Strangelove

according to wiki pakistan army operates the following self propelled systems
260 M110 howitzer
250 M109A2/A3
300 M109A4BE
115 M109A5
AND I THINK ITS 90 SH1 IF I M NOT WRONG
NOT KNOW ABOUT MKEK PANTHER IT IS POSSIBLE IF WE R PRODUCING THEM IN WAH


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wasm95 said:


> according to wiki pakistan army operates the following self propelled systems
> 260 M110 howitzer
> 250 M109A2/A3
> 300 M109A4BE
> 115 M109A5
> AND I THINK ITS 90 SH1 IF I M NOT WRONG
> NOT KNOW ABOUT MKEK PANTHER IT IS POSSIBLE IF WE R PRODUCING THEM IN WAH



Dont know abt the exact number(probably more) ... but what i know is tht all earlier models of M109 have been upgraded to A5 status... while we r producind A-100(latest version) and Panter howitzers.

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## PakShaheen79

That is good going for PA. Now they must also concentrate on development of SAMs to protect these assets from air threats.

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## Dr. Strangelove

PakShaheen79 said:


> That is good going for PA. Now they must also concentrate on development of SAMs to protect these assets from air threats.


 there is a sam system under development called hatf 10 if i m not wrong


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## PakShaheen79

^ name must be different as Hatf is name of land attack missile series (both ballistic and cruise )


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## Dr. Strangelove

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ name must be different as Hatf is name of land attack missile series (both ballistic and cruise )


what ever is the name i want to see this sam


----------



## blain2

wasm95 said:


> according to wiki pakistan army operates the following self propelled systems
> 260 M110 howitzer
> 250 M109A2/A3
> 300 M109A4BE
> 115 M109A5
> AND I THINK ITS 90 SH1 IF I M NOT WRONG
> NOT KNOW ABOUT MKEK PANTHER IT IS POSSIBLE IF WE R PRODUCING THEM IN WAH



This Wiki content is the wishful thinking of some adolescent.

Pakistan only has 40 M110s and no more have been purchased since 1987.
The M109 number is also hugely inflated with Pakistan having no more than 250 of these SP guns (including the 115 A5s).
I have no idea about the SH1s numbering 90 until and unless they were pulled out of PLA inventory, which is not the norm.

The above numbers are being mixed up between the SP and Towed artillery pieces which Pakistan has in both the 203mm and 155mm calibers. However even with the two numbers combined, the number of 8 inch guns seems very high.


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## monitor

http://www.google.com.bd/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pakistan%20army%20%20artilary%20pakdef&source=video&cd=10&ved=0CFUQtwIwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dypy2Rvfum0c&ei=QtWoToKoFIbV4QSNppXsDw&usg=AFQjCNHS4KZ8zdaxAve03gcpy7KyIsBpsQ


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## Super Falcon

i heared german made artillery and south african which is wheeled are worlds best artillery systems


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## cabatli_53

Pakistan produces the T-155 Panters ? Vaaaay !!! That's great news indeed. I think We can call this howitzer like Pakistani-Turkish Howitzer called Panter... Super






















---------- Post added at 03:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 AM ----------

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## Manticore

* PAK tanks*

http://i.imgur.com/KYyM2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DLVPy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7PgKt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DXb4a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RVRck.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RZIuB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y7uEH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HvBhJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QmXbP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/18HAQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MAbm9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyuP5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Klgds.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bI1KG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bklb8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VXypO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V9YXc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JjYOo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DZ1qL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/C2s5P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EU0O7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1p5b.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4S10y.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4S10y.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qb49Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NDIaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HqvBC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/38m5A.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NdmE5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IRL8b.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JKQuG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MaK2c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i0XHB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Sw23k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jy6yE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vSZZP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bEDpJ.jpg
TYPE 69-II
http://i.imgur.com/QfKI4.jpg
Type-85-II
http://i.imgur.com/zdfHj.jpg
alkhalid
http://i.imgur.com/asHYh.jpg
Type-69II 
http://i.imgur.com/R60G6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/U1rCM.jpg

Type-85-II modified to T-85-III
http://i.imgur.com/XWm30.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YyTeT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xl2kp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S4AQc.png
http://i.imgur.com/WjbZ6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Glrah.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4mRs7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ur9k9.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/NlDp6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3CSRA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Unlh3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DeeDi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HgbPI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bWtbt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ot51p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CyInI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qb29n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FMYA6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FsFbx.jpg

type 59
http://i.imgur.com/LvPVB.jpg
alzarrar
http://i.imgur.com/BQfMy.jpg


ak
[http://i.imgur.com/HK1RK.jpg

az
http://i.imgur.com/X03HT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lkLWD.jpg
type59
http://i.imgur.com/8v6A8.jpg
t80
http://i.imgur.com/r2NAo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5P3Un.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VgOtL.jpg

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...489-al-khalid-mbt-photos-videos-thread-6.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/106975-tank-designs-17.html

Wouldnt these count in Artillery as well?

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## Super Falcon

only thing worries me alot of wires on the system if one got hit by bullet and brooken well in war you are one leg short anyway good system though very capable but i have also one answer how quickly this system can change its positions becoz our opponents have fire locator system to soo we need to make them fool by firing from different positions


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## Donatello

Super Falcon said:


> only thing worries me alot of wires on the system if one got hit by bullet and brooken well in war you are one leg short anyway good system though very capable but i have also one answer how quickly this system can change its positions becoz our opponents have fire locator system to soo we need to make them fool by firing from different positions



Sir jee,

Artillery plays in the range that is well beyond the range of any sniper rifle/ assault rifles.

If the enemy is actually using bullets on your artillery hardware, then they are probably nearby and you have bigger problems to worry about than a bullet hitting your wires.....

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## Rafi

Our artillery is going from strength to strength. Both long range MLRS and 155mm guns will help our armored formations achieve the offensive punch.


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## cabatli_53

Havelsan Forward observer system Pakistan ordered...

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## Edevelop

Model: Calibre: Quantity:

M110: 203 mm 860
M109 155 mm 500
Norinco 155 mm 213
A-100 300 mm ? 
KRL-21 155 mm ?
M115 203 mm 356
MKEK (Panter) 155 mm 30
M114 155 mm 244
Type 59I 130 mm 410
Type 54 122 mm 490
M56 105 mm 113
M101 105 mm 216

Does anyone know whether Pakistan has placed orders for more MKEK Panter Howitzer from Turkey because what we have right now is quite few.... I also see that KRL-21 is Pakistani made. Is the induction for that completed or are we waiting for deliveries?


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## ejaz007

what is your source for the info. The figures do not seem to be correct.


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## Edevelop

ejaz007 said:


> what is your source for the info. The figures do not seem to be correct.



Wikipedia...


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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> Wikipedia...



bingo !!!!

just check the pakistan army information thread......


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## Edevelop




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## Jango

At around 1:39, the way that thing comes out, somebody could get his hands or body part blown off if not careful. 

I have never been familiar with artillery, but respect for Artillery guys. THe smoke in 40C in a desert.



cb4 said:


>



That is a huge turret, 8 inch M110 SP.


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## Manticore

T155 Panter.





a100




apologies if posted esrlier

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## Manticore

M109




M110*








SH1





we need a dedicated artillery thread and an armoured vehicles [tanks + apc thread in pak section] -- I've bumped 2 threads in this respect

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## Manticore



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## Manticore

credits to original uploaders

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore

need pictures for KRL-21,KRL 122 mm*,KRL_120mm_Ghazab, KRL_30_X_120mm_Ghazab_Azar, WS-1B 







pak def

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## Manticore

Development / Description 

Abdul Qadeer Khan Research Dr. laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly and two sets of 122.4 mm caliber, 3.1 meters of stainless steel pipe missiles are arranged in three lines of five years and mounted on a rack. Assembly can be either a vehicle mounted (for example, a series M35 (6 × 6) truck and used by the Pakistani army) or trailer to pull the vehicle. 

Firing mechanism is the type of electricity that can either be operated from the fire box to control provided in the cockpit of the car or from a protected location at a distance of about 50-60 m from the launcher using a remote control connected via cable launcher. The rockets can be launched singularly or in rocket fire. Pass the Assembly is 180 degrees with no height limit being 0-55 degrees. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. The rocket fire from Grad 122 mm standard fin stabilized and produced by Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of this system is 20380 meters. 

Status: 

Production. In service with the Pakistan Army. 

Company Name: Dr. Khan Research Laboratories Q 

Has developed KRL 122 - Kahuta Research Laboratories of Pakistan rocket launcher that is very similar to 11 North Korean BM. And was originally based 122 KRL Isuzu truck but later models of used trucks M35 Rio. Some remember Gadab sources label or Azar. Except the original Soviet missiles, "Yarmuk" developed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories can be launched. 

B) Abdul Qadeer Khan Research Dr. laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly and two sets of 122.4 mm caliber, 3.1 meters of stainless steel pipe missiles are arranged in three lines of five years and mounted on a rack. Assembly can be either a vehicle mounted (for example, a series M35 (6 × 6) mounted on trucks or towing a trailer. 

Firing mechanism is the type of electricity that can either be operated from the fire box to control provided in the cockpit of the car or from a protected location at a distance of about 50-60 m from the launcher using a remote control connected via cable launcher. The rockets can be launched singularly or in rocket fire. Pass the Assembly is 180 degrees with no height limit being 0-55 degrees. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. 

The rocket fire from Grad 122 mm standard fin stabilized and produced by Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of this system is 20380 meters. 

Pakistan origin 
Type self-propelled multiple rocket launcher 
122 mm caliber 
Pipe 30 
Rocket along the N / A 
Weight no missile 
Warhead weight N / A 
N Minimum chucking / A. 
Maximum shooting 20380 
Rate of Fire N / A 
Re n / Time 
High N / A 
Pass N / A 
Site N / A 
Launch vehicle M35 6 x 6 truck 
Anti weight N / A 
Vehicle speed on the roads N / A 


Launch vehicle n Range / A. 





KRL 122 mm (30-round) MRLS 

Development / Description 
The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly has two groups of 122.4 mm calibre, 3.1 m long stainless steel rocket tubes arranged in three lines of five and mounted on a cradle. The assembly can either be vehicle mounted (for example, on an M35 series (6 x 6) truck as used by the Pakistan Army) or trailer mounted for towing. 
The firing mechanism is an electric type which can either be operated from a fire-control box provided in the vehicle's cabin or from a sheltered position at a distance of some 50 to 60 m from the launcher using a remote-control device connected to the launcher by cable. The rockets can be launched singularly or in salvo. Traverse of the assembly is 180 ° with elevation limits being 0 to 55 °. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. The rockets are of the standard 122 mm Grad fin-stabilised type and are produced by the Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of the system is 20,380 metres. 
Status: 
Production. In service with the Pakistani Army. COMPANY NAME: Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories 
KRL 122 - Kahuta Research Laboratories from Pakistan have developed a rocket launcher that is very similar to the North-Korean BM-11. The KRL 122 was originally based on an Isuzu truck but later models use the Reo M35 truck. Some sources mention the designator Gadab or Azar. Except for the original Soviet rockets, the "Yarmuk" developed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories can be launched. 

b) The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly has two groups of 122.4 mm calibre, 3.1 m long stainless steel rocket tubes arranged in three lines of five and mounted on a cradle. The assembly can either be vehicle mounted (for example, on an M35 series (6 x 6) truck or trailer mounted for towing. 

The firing mechanism is an electric type which can either be operated from a fire-control box provided in the vehicle's cabin or from a sheltered position at a distance of some 50 to 60 m from the launcher using a remote-control device connected to the launcher by cable. The rockets can be launched singularly or in salvo. Traverse of the assembly is 180 ° with elevation limits being 0 to 55 °. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. 

The rockets are of the standard 122 mm Grad fin-stabilised type and are produced by the Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of the system is 20,380 metres. 

Origin Pakistan 
Type Self-Propelled Multiple Rocket Launcher 
Calibre 122 mm 
Tubes 30 
Rocket Length N / A 
Rocket Weight N / A 
Warhead Weight N / A 
Minimum Firing Range N / A 
Maximum Firing Range 20,380 m 
Rate of Fire N / A 
Reloading Time N / A 
Elevation N / A 
Traverse N / A 
Crew N / A 
Launcher Vehicle M35 6 x 6 truck 
Combat Weight N / A 
Vehicle Road Speed &#8203;&#8203;N / A 
Launcher Vehicle Range N / A 

http://armpoli.montadarabi.com/t4325-topic

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## Manticore

2009
*Pakistan Ordnance Factories and French Company signs MOU on rocket technology*

Pakistan Ordnance Factories and a French company signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on upgrading the capabilities of 122 mm rockets used by the Pakistani armed forces on the sidelines of the Defence Systems and Equipment International Exhibition which opened in East London Tuesday.

The MOU was signed on behalf of POF by its chairman Lt.General Shujaat Zamir Dar and by David Quancard, president, Roxel company, which is a leading French company dealing in rocket technology. Federal Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi was also present on the occasion.

*The contract when materialised will help Pakistan armed forces to enhance the firing range of the present stock of 122 mm rockets in its arsenal from its current range of 20 kilometres to 40 km and beyond.*

The French company chief sales executive Francis Rodriguez speaking to the media said the present Pakistani rockets are equipped with the Russian technology and are quite outdated and once actual agreement is signed with his company, the induction of new technology will not only increase the range but make the weapon more lethal and effective.

He said POF is manufacturing defence equipment of international standard and his company trust the Pakistan technology and is happy to assist POF in bringning further new advancements.

Rodriguez said since the induction of a democratic government in Pakistan, its relations with France has deepened and both President Asif Ali Zardari and Nicholas Sarkozy are keen to see that these are further consolidated in all fields particularly in the defence sector. France is already a major defence supplier to Pakistan including Mirage warplanes and submarines and other equipment for its forces.


----
http://i30.tinypic.com/nv60km.jpg

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## Manticore

> This is the first time for China to export the A-100 MLRS to a foreign country. South Asian military industry analysts believe that Pakistans procurement of the A-100 is in response to Indias acquisition of the Russian Smerch, or Tornado, MLRS. Both the Smerch and the A-100 are 300-mm calibre rocket launch systems.
> 
> In 2001, India signed a contract with Russia to purchase US$450 million worth of Smerch MLRS, which made their first appearance at Indias 2008 National Day military parade. A source from the Chinese military industry claims that the Smerchs maximum range is 90 kilometers, while the A-100 can fire its latest submunitions as far as 120 kilometers. After being fitted with a simplified strike correction system, the A-100s strike accuracy is increased to 33 percent.
> 
> The Pakistani military is considering a possible transfer of production site for the A-100 out of China. However, at the current stage, Pakistan will continue to import the system, according to the military industry source.
> 
> Some international analysts are of the opinion that the A-100 and the AR-2 300-mm MLRS produced by Chinese manufacturer Norinco are both imitation versions of the Russian Smerch MLRS. But the manufacturers of the A-100 and the AR-2 insist that these three types of MLRS are completely different. Neither the A-100 nor the AR-2 can fire Smerch rocket munitions, nor do they use the same propellant rocket motors or components.
> 
> In addition, China is now undertaking technological and structural upgrades of both the A-100 and AR-2 multi-rocket launch systems. These upgrades may include replacing their tube-shaped launchers with box-shaped launchers, as the former are much more expensive, cannot be quickly and easily reloaded and are more difficult to maintain. The similar AR-1 MLRS, which are fitted with box-shaped launchers, no longer require transloaders to load the rockets.





> Determined to maintain its already commanding lead in the arena of long-range field artillery over its Indian counterpart, the Pakistan Army is gearing up to induct into service two Regiments (or 36 launchers) of the 10-barrel, 300mm A-100E multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) and its related ground-based fire-control systems from China&#8217;s China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp (CPMIEC) and CETC. Also being acquired are approximately 90 SH-1 155mm/52-calibre motorised howitzers from NORINCO of China, plus three Regiments of the CPMIEC-built HQ-9 long-range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) system (these being acquired by the Pakistan Air Force, or PAF), while from Ukraine the Pakistan Army will be acquiring about 400 T-84U main battle tanks (MBT) off-the-shelf.
> 
> It was during the visit last October to China of Pakistan&#8217;s Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani that Islamabad and Beijing inked the contracts for the initial 36 A-100Es and two CETC-built SLC-2 passive phased-array weapons locating radars (WLR), plus the SH-1s. This followed the round of competitive evaluations conducted by the Pakistan Army of the A-100E and the competing NORINCO-built AR-2, another 300mm MBRL also of Chinese origin. The A-100E comprises a launch vehicle, and reloading vehicle and command-and-control vehicles, all of which are mounted on the WS-2400 8 x 8 wheeled chassis (the same truck also tows the launcher for the Babur multi-role cruise missile). All 10 rockets, each equipped with a 200kg warhead, can be fired within 60 seconds out to a range of 100km, and it can be reloaded in 20 minutes. The NORINCO-built AR-2 MBRL, on the other hand, has 12 launch tubes from which rockets armed with a wide variety of warheads are fired. The warhead options for the A-100E include fragmentation sub-munitions warhead, anti-tank mine scattering warhead, shaped-charge fragmentation submunitions warhead, separable HE-fragmentation warhead, fuel-air explosive warhead, and HE-fragmentation warhead. The target acquisition and fire-control system elements include the CETC-built 702D meteorological radar station and SLC-2 WLR.
> 
> The NORINCO-built SH-1 motorized 155mm/52-calibre howitzer underwent extensive mobility and firepower trials in December 2007 in Pakistan&#8217;s Northern Areas, and underwent similar field trials last June in the Thar Desert. The SH-1 can fire rocket-assisted V-LAP projectiles out to 53km, as well as laser-guided projectiles like NORINCO&#8217;s &#8216;Red Mud&#8217; and KBP Instrument Design Bureau&#8217;s Krasnopol-M2. The SH-1 can also fire base-bleed 155mm rounds out to 42.5km, and its truck chassis houses a fibre-optic gyro-based north positioning-cum-navigation system, battlespace management system, autonomous orientation-cum-muzzle velocity radar, gun loader&#8217;s display-cum-ramming control box, ammunition box housing 25 rounds (of seven different types) and their modular charges, and a network-centric artillery fire direction system. A complete SH-1 Regiment comprises 24 SH-1s, four Battery Command Post vehicles, one Battalion Command Post vehicle, one road-mobile CETC-built JY-30 C-band meteorological radar, four 6 x 6 wheeled reconnaissance vehicles, and an S-band CETC-built Type 904-1 artillery locating-cum-fire correction radar. Earlier, on September 9, 2007 the Pakistan Army accepted at its Nowshera-based School of Artillery the first of twelve 18-tonne T-155 Panter 155mm/52-calibre towed howitzers from Turkey&#8217;s state-owned Machines and Chemical Industry Board (MKEK). The Panter was co-developed in the late 1990s by MKEK and Singapore Technologies Kinetics. For producing the 155mm family of munitions, Wah Cantonment-based Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) has teamed up with South Korea&#8217;s Poongsan and on April 12 last year, Gen Kayani symbolically received the first lot of licence-assembled K-307 BB-HE and K-310 155mm BB dual purpose improvised conventional munitions (DPICM) Ammunition from POF Chairman Pakistan Lt Gen Syed Sabahat Hussain.





TaimiKhan said:


> PHL-03 is the same system as A-100, difference is PHL-03 is Chinese Army designation, while its export name is AR-2.
> 
> A-100 and AR-2 difference is, A-100 is a ten barrel 120KM range system, while PHL-03 or AR-2 is a 12 barrel 150Km range system.
> 
> But A-100s can also be upgraded to have the 12 barrels launcher with 150KM range rockets.



PHL03 - Chinese development of PHL96. Only very limited number of PHL96 entered Chinese service because its successor PHL03, soon entered service shorter after. PHL03 is a highly digitized PHL96 with computerized fire control system (FCS), and the crew is increased to 4 from the original of 3 of BM-30/PHL96, entering service around 2004-2005,[15] only a year or two after its predecessor PHL96. The FCS of PHL03 incorporates and GPS/GLONASS, similar to that of Type 90A SPMRL. As with its predecessor PHL96, strictly speaking, PHL03 is not exactly a guided SPMRL because like PHL96, PHL03 does not have any guided rocket, and the guidance was achieved via sub-munitions.
AR-1 - Chinese development of PHL03. This is actually the first model in among the Chinese versions of BM-30 SPMRL that is a truly guided rocket system in that the rocket itself is guided by a simple primitive cascade inertial terminal guidance used on WS series SPMRL, which became standard for later Chinese versions. Russia had already developed a guided version of BM-30 with mid-course radio command guidance to immediately correct the error in the flight of the rocket once detected by the ballistic tracking radar, but this was not adopted due to financial constraints.[16] Unconfirmed Chinese internet sources have claimed that when China negotiated the license production right in 2008, this guided design was also purchased, but such claims has yet to be verified by official or independent sources.
AR-1A - Chinese development of AR-1. A 10 round version of AR-1, with 2 launching boxes each containing 5 expandable launching tubes. Once rockets are lunched, the entire launch box is replaced, instead of individually reloading each tube in earlier version, thus greatly reducing the time to reload.[17][18]
AR-2 - Chinese development of AR-1/1A manufactured by Norinco, with range increased to 130 km.[19]
AR-3 - Chinese development of AR-2 manufactured by Norinco, with caliber increased to 370 mm, but can also adopt 300 mm caliber as well. As with AR-1/1A/2, AR-3 adopts modular design by incorporating 2 launching boxes containing several launching tubes, with the launching boxes replaced after the launching of rockets. When using 300 mm caliber rockets, each launching box contains 5 launching tubes like earlier AR-1/1A/2, and when using 370 mm caliber rockets, each launching box contains 4 launching tubes.

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## Nishan_101

POF, HIT and HMC should have joined with Germans as well as with Ukranians for their Artillery programs and Tank programs that have proved to be much more lethal...


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## Zarvan

Nishan_101 said:


> POF, HIT and HMC should have joined with Germans as well as with Ukranians for their Artillery programs and Tank programs that have proved to be much more lethal...


We can get very latest Artillery from China and Turkey and other countries from them it will be easy to get them by the way @ANTIBODY can you tell in last 8 years which new Artillery guns we got and How many in number ?


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## fatman17

PA is looking to induct a SP mortar system and increase the numbers of their MRL's.


Self-propelled mortar system
Value: USD1.5 billion
In service: Up to 2020
Status: Medium probability

Summary: The procurement of a self-propelled mortar (SPM) system will provide Pakistan&#8217;s mechanized infantry with its own organic fire support capability. Unlike self-propelled howitzers, which are generally brigade-level assets, SPMs as a battalion asset could respond faster to calls for fire from individual infantry companies. The Pakistan Army has already converted a large number of its locally produced BAE Systems M113 platforms into support vehicles and it is likely that any SPM will be based on the M113. This is a medium probability forecast based on Pakistani media reports in 2010 and 2011 that the government is interested in acquiring an SPM system.

Probable Supplier; US, China
Financial Mechanism; FMS, Soft loans.
Type; ?



Source: The Emerging Defense Procurement Market &#8226; Pakistan

China's howitzer-mortar

China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) uses 82 mm and 120 mm mortars in both the SP and dismounted roles. The former are mounted in fully tracked APCs, are fired through open hatch covers and can be dismounted for conventional ground use. 
Meanwhile, the 120 mm PLL-05 wheeled SP mortar system made its first public appearance during Beijing's military parade held in October 2009 and has now entered service with the PLA. 

Currently marketed by China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) as the 120 mm self-propelled howitzer-mortar, it is based on the latest production WMZ551 (6x6) amphibious APC, which is used in a wide range of roles by the PLA. 

In terms of armament, the PLL-05 has both a direct and indirect fire capability and is armed with a turret-mounted 120 mm rifled ordnance, for which a total of 36 rounds are carried. A 12.7 mm machine gun (MG) is mounted on the roof for both air defence and self-defence purposes. 

In addition, two types of high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) projectiles for use in the direct fire role can be fired with an effective range of 1,200 m. The indirect fire is handled by preformed high-explosive (HE) and cargo rounds carrying 30 bomblets. The maximum range for indirect fire is currently being quoted as 8.5 km. China has also developed a laser-guided 120 mm mortar projectile, although it is not known whether this can be fired from the PLL-05 SP system. 

would the PA mount this system on their M113 APC? 

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jr-tt-...rocurement-market-pakistan.html#ixzz2LFRrOAyH

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

ANTIBODY said:


> pak tanks and artillery pictures are already posted
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-artillery-upgrade-program-5.html#post2232912
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...489-al-khalid-mbt-photos-videos-thread-6.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/106975-tank-designs-17.html


Sir Pakistan should replace its some really old Towed Artillery guns especially like M115 and some other guns


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## ejaz007

cb4 said:


> Wikipedia...



Not an 100% authentic source. Wikipedia should only be quoted when one has personal knowledge of the issue he or she is quoting Wikipedia for and knows that the information is correct.

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## Gryphon

According to wiki, Pak Army has 300 M109 A4BE SPH's ...Can anyone confirm whether we have A4's too along with A2's & A5's....

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## Gryphon

Is *Azar* & *KRL 122* MLRS the same?

Azar (Type 81) 122 mm is Chinese copy of Russian BM 21 Grad MLRS while KRL 122 mm (Gazab) is Pakistan made BM-11 (North Korean BM 21 Grad).

Which of them uses Yarmuk developed by POF?

Plz mention their ranges and no. of rockets too if they are two different MLRS...


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## Gentelman

KRL uses Yarmook 30 in numbers....
range =I don't know....
much info are classified and not out yet...
KRL is indigenous development of Kahota Research Laboratory soo Azar and KRL are not same...

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## Fieldmarshal

all M109 are being/have been up graded to to A5 standard

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## Gryphon

Any source to verify the claim and how many M109 A5's do we currently have (including updated ones) ..any info??


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## The King Hamza

about hundred.


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## fatman17

all are being updated to A5 standard.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> all are being updated to A5 standard.



Is Pakistan planning to get some new Artillery or MRL ?


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## Gryphon

*SELF PROPELLED ARTILLERY:*

*M109A5* - 297 to be acquired under FMS .. 115 delivered till 2010






*TOWED ARTILLERY:*

*MKEK Panter* / *T-155 Panter howitzer* (equipped with American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars) - 57+ in service ; Local Production going on at Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT)






*Multiple Launch Rocket Systems*

*A-100E / AR1A* (Range 120 km) - 36 in service (More to be procured & believed to be manufactured at Suparco Factory, Karachi)






*WS-1B MLRS* (Range 180 km) - Unknown numbers on order from China.






*KRL 122 (Gazab) * (40 km range with upgraded *Yarmuk* Rockets) - 40 in service & production ongoing.






*AZAR MLRS (Type 81)* (122 mm)(40 tube MLRS with 20 km range) - 52+ in service , local production going on..

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## Imran Khan

brand new damn they never even used it ever

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## fatman17

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Any source to verify the claim and how many M109 A5's do we currently have (including updated ones) ..any info??



go to pakistan army info thread (sticky)


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## Manticore

Regiment of Artillery
Field Artillery - Pakistan Military Photos

Please do not open another artillery thread with the same old pics posted a couple of years back in this relevant thread -- All new artillery threads will be merged with this one & the thread title has been changed

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## Manticore

Pakistan Builds Smarter Shells
Next Article &#8594; LEADERSHIP: The "Year of the Soldier" In Pakistan
April 22, 2008: Pakistan has begun production of DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition) 155mm artillery shells (each one carrying 88 bomblets). DPICM is more effective against enemy troops than conventional shells. The bomblets are basically anti-vehicle weapons with a fragmentation effect that kills or injures most people within 20 feet of one going off. In use for over three decades, the DPICM bomblets (also used in cluster bombs) have a dud rate of about one percent. That means one percent do not explode when they hit something (after being expelled from the shell, before the shell hits the ground). These duds can explode later if picked up or stepped on.

That's a lower dud rate than for most munitions, but one shell carries 88 separate small bombs, while each MLRS rocket carries 644. So you have a lot more dud munitions sitting around on the battlefield, ready to injure your own troops and civilians. DPICM continues to be used because the bomblets more than triple the effectiveness of each conventional shell (which is just filled with an explosive charge.)

Pakistan licensed the technology for this shell from a South Korean company. The Pakistani shell also uses base bleed technology to increase range 20 percent. This is done by having a solid fuel in the base of the shell burn after firing, releasing gas that reduces drag and extends range.

Artillery: Pakistan Builds Smarter Shells

India artillery upgrade stuck, Pak gets howitzers from US 
New Delhi, Tue Aug 25 2009

India's artillery modernisation has been stuck due to scam scares ever since the Bofors scandal but Pakistan has gone ahead, equipping its army with the latest guns that now threaten to give it an edge over the Indian Army.
While India has not received even a single new artillery gun in the last two decades, Pakistan recently received a batch of 67 self-propelled artillery guns from the US using War against Terror funds granted by Washington.
Latest United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan.
Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. The most modern guns in the Indian Army are the Bofors that were procured in the 1980s.
"While the Indian Army modernisation is getting nowhere, Pakistan is steadily modernising not only its artillery but other arms and services as well. This will lead to erosion in India's conventional superiority if not checked immediately," said Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, a former artillery officer, who heads the Army's think tank, Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS).
In the Nineties, the Indian Army had put forward a requirement for guns similar to the ones that Pakistan has now got. While the plan took off in 1999, it got scrapped after eight years of trials after South African firm Denel was blacklisted by the government.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-artillery-upgrade-stuck-pak-gets-howitzers-from-us/506762/1

U.S. delivers 48 field artillery cannons to Pakistan Army
10:11, February 14, 2010
The United States delivered 48 self-propelled field artillery cannons to the Pakistan Army on Saturday at the Malir Cantonment in the southern port city of Karachi, the U.S embassy said.

The delivery marks the completion of a total purchase of 115 field artillery cannons by Pakistan through the U.S. foreign military sales/foreign military finance program, the embassy spokesman said.

The FMS/FMF case was initiated by Pakistan in 2006 and enabled the government of Pakistan to obtain the cannons from the United States at a greatly discounted rate.

"These field artillery cannons are an important part of enhancing the capabilities of Pakistan's Army as it continues to wage its courageous fight against terrorists who seek to destroy Pakistan's people and way of life," said U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, U.S. Office of the Defense Representative-Pakistan.

"It is our hope that these weapons are ultimately able to play an important role in ending extremist violence and bringing peace once again to this great nation," he said.

During the last three years, U.S. civilian and security assistance to Pakistan has totaled more than 4 billion dollars.

Assistance provided and delivered has included support for medical aid, school refurbishment, bridge and well reconstruction, food distribution, agricultural and education projects, 14 F-16 fighter aircraft, 10 Mi-17 helicopters, more than 450 vehicles for Pakistan's Frontier Corps, hundreds of night vision goggles, day/ night scopes, radios, and thousands of protective vests and first- aid items for Pakistan's security forces.

In addition, the U.S. funded and provided training for more than 370 Pakistani military officers in a wide range of leadership and development programs covering topics such as counterterrorism, intelligence, logistics, medical, flight safety, and military law.

U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, U.S. Office of the Defense Representative-Pakistan deputy commander, officially handed over the M1095A5 Howitzer self-propelled cannons to Pakistan Army Brigadier Farrukh Saeed, 25th Mechanized Division Artillery Commander, during a ceremony in Karachi. The event was attended by Steve Fakan, U.S. Consul General to Karachi, and more than a dozen U.S. and Pakistani military representatives.
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/6894852.html

North Korea Helps Pakistan Get It Right
April 24, 2011: Pakistan recently successfully tested a new, short range, ballistic missile. The Hatf 9 is the latest model in the Hatf line of nuclear armed missiles. With a range of only 60 kilometers, Hatf 9 is small enough for two to be mounted on one vehicle. It's trajectory is flatter than most ballistic missiles, making it more difficult for anti-missile systems to hit. The apparent size and range of the Hatf 9 is similar to the Russian OTR-21 (SS-21). Introduced in the late 1970s, this two ton, 650mm diameter, 6.4 meter (21 foot) long SS-21 had a range of 70 kilometers and a half ton warhead (large enough for existing Pakistani nuclear warheads). North Korea, a regular supplier of missile technology to Pakistan, had built its own version of the SS-21, and could have provided the needed technical assistance to Pakistan.

Pakistan has a full range of solid fuel rockets. In addition to the Hatf 9, there is the 1.5 ton Hatf 1, which appeared in 1989, has a range of 80 kilometers and a half ton warhead. The Hatf 1 apparently never entered service, due to reliability problems. Thus the Hatf 9 is basically the Hatf 1 done right.

Also showing up in 1989, the 2.5 ton Hatf 2 has a range of 180 kilometers, and also carries a half ton warhead. Then there is the four ton Ghaznavi (Hatf 3), which was first tested four years ago, and appears to be based on the Chinese DF-11. This missile has a range of some 300 kilometers and also carries a half ton warhead. The Shaheen 1 (Hatf 4), which weighs 9.5 tons, and carries a one ton warhead, has a maximum range of 700 kilometers. The Shaheen 1 entered service in 2003, and is apparently a variant of the Chinese DF-9 missile. Pakistan is believed to have received the solid fuel DF-9 in the 1990s, and has modified it somewhat. Pakistan began producing the Hatf 4 in the late 1990s, although it was not tested until 1999. The design appears to be well thought out, for the Hatf 4 has had several successful tests. It's not known if Pakistan has a nuclear warhead of equal reliability. Such warheads are difficult to design, manufacture and test. China has long been selling military technology to Pakistan, but it appears that nuclear warhead technology has not been offered.

The largest Pakistani ballistic missile is the Shaheen 2, which is believed to be an upgraded Pakistani version of the Chinese M-18, which was originally shown at the 1987 Beijing air show as a two-stage missile with a 1,000 km range and carrying a 900-1100 pound payload. This M-18 missile has the longest range of any of the current M/DF-series missiles. The mobile, two-stage missile is said to be able to carry a one ton payload. There have been over half a dozen successful test launches of the Shaheen 2 in the last six years. The missiles now have a range of 2,000 kilometers, which puts Bombay, New Delhi, Lucknow, and Jaipur, as well as all military targets in northern India, within range. Satellite photos of a Pakistani factory 30 kilometers southwest of the capital show transporter erector launchers (TELs) being assembled for the Shaheen 2 ballistic missile. It appears that several dozen of the fifty foot long, six axle vehicles have been built there in the last four years.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/20110424.aspx

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ANTIBODY said:


> Development / Description
> 
> Abdul Qadeer Khan Research Dr. laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly and two sets of 122.4 mm caliber, 3.1 meters of stainless steel pipe missiles are arranged in three lines of five years and mounted on a rack. Assembly can be either a vehicle mounted (for example, a series M35 (6 × 6) truck and used by the Pakistani army) or trailer to pull the vehicle.
> 
> Firing mechanism is the type of electricity that can either be operated from the fire box to control provided in the cockpit of the car or from a protected location at a distance of about 50-60 m from the launcher using a remote control connected via cable launcher. The rockets can be launched singularly or in rocket fire. Pass the Assembly is 180 degrees with no height limit being 0-55 degrees. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. The rocket fire from Grad 122 mm standard fin stabilized and produced by Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of this system is 20380 meters.
> 
> Status:
> 
> Production. In service with the Pakistan Army.
> 
> Company Name: Dr. Khan Research Laboratories Q
> 
> Has developed KRL 122 - Kahuta Research Laboratories of Pakistan rocket launcher that is very similar to 11 North Korean BM. And was originally based 122 KRL Isuzu truck but later models of used trucks M35 Rio. Some remember Gadab sources label or Azar. Except the original Soviet missiles, "Yarmuk" developed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories can be launched.
> 
> B) Abdul Qadeer Khan Research Dr. laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly and two sets of 122.4 mm caliber, 3.1 meters of stainless steel pipe missiles are arranged in three lines of five years and mounted on a rack. Assembly can be either a vehicle mounted (for example, a series M35 (6 × 6) mounted on trucks or towing a trailer.
> 
> Firing mechanism is the type of electricity that can either be operated from the fire box to control provided in the cockpit of the car or from a protected location at a distance of about 50-60 m from the launcher using a remote control connected via cable launcher. The rockets can be launched singularly or in rocket fire. Pass the Assembly is 180 degrees with no height limit being 0-55 degrees. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled.
> 
> The rocket fire from Grad 122 mm standard fin stabilized and produced by Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of this system is 20380 meters.
> 
> Pakistan origin
> Type self-propelled multiple rocket launcher
> 122 mm caliber
> Pipe 30
> Rocket along the N / A
> Weight no missile
> Warhead weight N / A
> N Minimum chucking / A.
> Maximum shooting 20380
> Rate of Fire N / A
> Re n / Time
> High N / A
> Pass N / A
> Site N / A
> Launch vehicle M35 6 x 6 truck
> Anti weight N / A
> Vehicle speed on the roads N / A
> 
> 
> Launch vehicle n Range / A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KRL 122 mm (30-round) MRLS
> 
> Development / Description
> The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly has two groups of 122.4 mm calibre, 3.1 m long stainless steel rocket tubes arranged in three lines of five and mounted on a cradle. The assembly can either be vehicle mounted (for example, on an M35 series (6 x 6) truck as used by the Pakistan Army) or trailer mounted for towing.
> The firing mechanism is an electric type which can either be operated from a fire-control box provided in the vehicle's cabin or from a sheltered position at a distance of some 50 to 60 m from the launcher using a remote-control device connected to the launcher by cable. The rockets can be launched singularly or in salvo. Traverse of the assembly is 180 ° with elevation limits being 0 to 55 °. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled. The rockets are of the standard 122 mm Grad fin-stabilised type and are produced by the Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of the system is 20,380 metres.
> Status:
> Production. In service with the Pakistani Army. COMPANY NAME: Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories
> KRL 122 - Kahuta Research Laboratories from Pakistan have developed a rocket launcher that is very similar to the North-Korean BM-11. The KRL 122 was originally based on an Isuzu truck but later models use the Reo M35 truck. Some sources mention the designator Gadab or Azar. Except for the original Soviet rockets, the "Yarmuk" developed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories can be launched.
> 
> b) The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories multiple rocket launcher assembly has two groups of 122.4 mm calibre, 3.1 m long stainless steel rocket tubes arranged in three lines of five and mounted on a cradle. The assembly can either be vehicle mounted (for example, on an M35 series (6 x 6) truck or trailer mounted for towing.
> 
> The firing mechanism is an electric type which can either be operated from a fire-control box provided in the vehicle's cabin or from a sheltered position at a distance of some 50 to 60 m from the launcher using a remote-control device connected to the launcher by cable. The rockets can be launched singularly or in salvo. Traverse of the assembly is 180 ° with elevation limits being 0 to 55 °. The latter can be either electrically or manually controlled.
> 
> The rockets are of the standard 122 mm Grad fin-stabilised type and are produced by the Pakistan Ordnance Factories. Maximum range of the system is 20,380 metres.
> 
> Origin Pakistan
> Type Self-Propelled Multiple Rocket Launcher
> Calibre 122 mm
> Tubes 30
> Rocket Length N / A
> Rocket Weight N / A
> Warhead Weight N / A
> Minimum Firing Range N / A
> Maximum Firing Range 20,380 m
> Rate of Fire N / A
> Reloading Time N / A
> Elevation N / A
> Traverse N / A
> Crew N / A
> Launcher Vehicle M35 6 x 6 truck
> Combat Weight N / A
> Vehicle Road Speed &#8203;&#8203;N / A
> Launcher Vehicle Range N / A
> 
> ãæÓæÚÉ ÇáÑÇÌãÇÊ ÈÇáÕæÑ



*Some excellent news..... the range of KRL-122mm has been improved and is now 45km.
*


> *Advance technology made it possible to refurbish and enhance the range of 122mm MBRL rockets up to 45 Km as compared to its original range of 20 Km.* Refurbished extended range version of the rocket has also undergone various design improvements which guaranties reliability and greater safety during operation.
> Various types of warheads with enhanced features and capabilities have been developed besides traditional HE warhead (WH). These include Enhanced Lethality Pre-fragmented and Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM) Cargo warheads.



GIDS Official website:
:: GIDS - REFURBISHMENT-RANGE-ENHANCEMENT-OF-122MM-MBRL-AMMUNITION ::

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## Path-Finder

Has anyone seen pictures or know of the service of SH-1 which has been rumored to have entered service, seen the picture of Panter but none for SH-1.


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## Mian H Amin.

good one, as we realised in kargil war that our artillery was not as upgraded as it should be. so i can say its a good step.
2nd. i think Pakistan also upgrade and develop its navy which is the weakest one among the 3 forces.


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## Manticore

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...2012/rs5-5-billion-foul-play-in-defence-funds

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## naseem shah

ANTIBODY said:


> Rs5.5 billion foul play in defence funds | The Nation



you are good at pics 
why are guys in this pic are jumping or diving


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## AUSTERLITZ

ANTIBODY said:


> Regiment of Artillery
> Field Artillery - Pakistan Military Photos
> 
> Please do not open another artillery thread with the same old pics posted a couple of years back in this relevant thread -- All new artillery threads will be merged with this one & the thread title has been changed



Superb pic,only showing its business end.

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## AUSTERLITZ

What's the range of the panter?Does it have a fire control system?What number will eventually be procured?
I'm envious of pak army artillery but i think they are using too many varieties which could cause logistical nightmare,should standardize.


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## Armstrong

AUSTERLITZ said:


> What's the range of the panter?Does it have a fire control system?What number will eventually be procured?
> I'm envious of pak army artillery but i think they are using too many varieties which could cause logistical nightmare,should standardize.



Apnaa @DESERT FIGHTER talked about PA looking to standardize the Artillery to a 155mm caliber, I think !


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## fatman17

PK is developing its own MRLS the AZAR. this is being done in conjuction with China as it appears similar to the Type 81. PK has signed on to acquire 36 300mm A100 MRLS from China.

PK is seeking to procure self-propelled mortar systems SPMS to equip the rapidly increasing mechanised infantry formations with their own firepower to complement the recently improved self propelled SP artillery formations.

the arty directorate and strike corps are more interested to improve the effectiveness of the self propelled SP howitzers, there fore the SPMS procurement is likely to take a back seat to the SP requirements.

the most likely system to base SPMS will be the APC 113s or similar systems.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Armstrong said:


> Apnaa @DESERT FIGHTER talked about PA looking to standardize the Artillery to a 155mm caliber, I think !



Not calibre,i meant types of systems,will all these different artillery systems fire same rounds.If not then logistical problem.

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## fatman17

155mm M109A2 - being updated to A5
155mm MIO9A5
203mm M110A2
155mm M198
155mm M114
155mm T-155 PANTER
155mm M59 MEDIUM GUN
155mm SH-1 NORINCO - unconfirmed

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## Dr. Strangelove

so we still dont know about SH-1? 
i think it is inducted already because we heard about the news a while ago


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## Imran Khan

wasm95 said:


> so we still dont know about SH-1?
> i think it is inducted already because we heard about the news a while ago



wait for live fire dear may be we found it like A-100



AUSTERLITZ said:


> What's the range of the panter?Does it have a fire control system?What number will eventually be procured?
> I'm envious of pak army artillery but i think they are using too many varieties which could cause logistical nightmare,should standardize.



range max 40kms and pakistan got first batch of 12 and second batch 42 now we have TOT and will made in pakistan HIT wait i think max 300 to 400 they will make

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## Gryphon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *Some excellent news..... the range of KRL-122mm has been improved and is now 45km.
> *



POF & French firm Roxel had signed an MOU to upgrade 122 mm rockets used in the Gadab (KRL 122) in September, 2009

POF, French company sign agreement on rocket technology

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## nomi007

China's ALMT Offering 155mm Guided Shell WS-35 With 100km Range

WS-35 Guided by GNSS/INS and presumably fired from PLZ-05. It was offered at an exposition in SE Asia, according to Kanwa.

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Indigenous or foriegn?



i think it will be a little bit of both it will be based on m113 or some other platform


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wasm95 said:


> i think it will be a little bit of both it will be based on m113 or some other platform



Scratch tht... my question was childish.. POF does produce 120mm mortars...as for the platform... In my humble opinion... i think Raad would be more suitable... any how im more interested in the arty guns promised by HIT last year....

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Scratch tht... my question was childish.. POF does produce 120mm mortars...as for the platform... In my humble opinion... i think Raad would be more suitable... any how im more interested in the arty guns promised by HIT last year....



yes raad indeed is a good option 
we will just have to wait and see


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## fahad196

i like it very much


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## revojam




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## Inception-06

We did never see the Panthers in service with Pakistan Army, may be Pakistan did not have the cash to buy more than 12 Guns ?


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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> We did never see the Panthers in service with Pakistan Army, may be Pakistan did not have the cash to buy more than 12 Guns ?



52 Panter howitzers are currently in service (Source: SIPRI). Now, they are produced by Heavy Industries Taxila under ToT ..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/133983-pakistans-artillery-upgrade-discussions.html

Pakistan's first locally produced tank gun ready for use by defence | GulfNews.com

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## Inception-06

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 52 Panter howitzers are currently in service (Source: SIPRI). Now, they are produced by Heavy Industries Taxila under ToT ..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/133983-pakistans-artillery-upgrade-discussions.html




Till today HIT has not offical confirmed the production of the Panthers.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> 52 Panter howitzers are currently in service (Source: SIPRI). Now, they are produced by Heavy Industries Taxila under ToT ..
> 
> Pakistan's first locally produced tank gun ready for use by defence | GulfNews.com




This are 50 Tank Guns not Panthers !


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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> Till today HIT has not offical confirmed the production of the Panthers.





> The main acquisitions are at least 297 M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers that have been supplied since 2007 under a $56 million deal made in 2006, and local production of the Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers, by Heavy Industries Taxila's Heavy Mechanical Complex, after 12 were delivered for evaluation in 2007.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...illery-upgrade-discussions.html#ixzz2eBrQbjq4

There were two reports which I have mentioned before. Both of these 2011 reports confirm ToT and plans to produce MKEK Panters. No report since then. However, As Artillery Modernization Program is progressing steadily, It is believed that production has started. We will have to wait for Sir Usman Ansari to write one more article about Pakistan Army's Artillery Modernization program on Defense News. 

115 M109A5's were delivered. Around 152 M109A2's are currently in service & as many upgrade kits were delivered by US. Some 30 - 40 more M109's will be delivered. This will take the number to around 300. 



Ulla said:


> This are 50 Tank Guns not Panthers !





> The official said that after delivering 50 tank guns,* the HMC plans to produce artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.*



Where did I say 50 Panters were produced ?? 12 + 40 = 52 Panters were delivered by Turkey according to SIPRI . Final number will be around 200.

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## Hammad Bin majid

Its a good news if Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

In a modern military, a missile is a self-propelled guided weapon system, as opposed to an unguided self-propelled munition, referred to as just a rocket. Missiles have four system components: targeting and/or guidance, flight system, engine, and warhead. Missiles come in types adapted for different purposes: surface-to-surface and air-to-surface missiles (ballistic, cruise, anti-ship, anti-tank, etc.), surface-to-air missiles (anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic), air-to-air missiles, and anti-satellite missiles. All known existing missiles are designed to be propelled during powered flight by chemical reactions inside a rocket engine, jet engine, or other type of engine.[citation needed] Non-self-propelled airborne explosive devices are generally referred to as shells and usually have a shorter range than missiles.

An ordinary English-language usage predating guided weapons is "any thrown object", such as objects thrown at players by rowdy spectators at a sporting event.


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## Hammad Bin majid

In a modern military, a missile is a self-propelled guided weapon system, as opposed to an unguided self-propelled munition, referred to as just a rocket. Missiles have four system components: targeting and/or guidance, flight system, engine, and warhead. Missiles come in types adapted for different purposes: surface-to-surface and air-to-surface missiles (ballistic, cruise, anti-ship, anti-tank, etc.), surface-to-air missiles (anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic), air-to-air missiles, and anti-satellite missiles. All known existing missiles are designed to be propelled during powered flight by chemical reactions inside a rocket engine, jet engine, or other type of engine.[citation needed] Non-self-propelled airborne explosive devices are generally referred to as shells and usually have a shorter range than missiles.

An ordinary English-language usage predating guided weapons is "any thrown object", such as objects thrown at players by rowdy spectators at a sporting event.

yeah u r rite


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## Last Hope

Official picture from Tirah Valley:






Official picture of Arty unit deployed near border, which I believe is to be Cholistan:

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## rockstar08




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## DESERT FIGHTER

Last Hope said:


> Official picture from Tirah Valley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official picture of Arty unit deployed near border, which I believe is to be Cholistan:



Very old pics..


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## Inception-06

I think this are the 130mm M-59IIM, the firing Position looks well prepared, it shows the dicipline of the Pakistani Gunners. What I cant understand is why they ise blue sand sacks whick can bee seen from 100 of meters by the Enemy. 





Pakitani military personnels man long-range guns mounted on ditches along the Pakistan and Afghanistan border near Mohmand, 27 August 2003. Guns !






A 81mm Mortar, I think it is the M3 81mm Mortar, ituth African mortar based upon the French Hotchkiss-Brandt MO-81-61 mortar, adapted for local manufacture. The M3 81mm Mortar fires a 4.4 kgbomb between 100 metres and 5000 metres at a rate of fire of up to 15 rounds-per-minute.

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## Inception-06

Pakistani 122mm Rocket launcher mounted on a chinese Truck.










The Trucks are the chinese Dongfeng EQ240/2081E and EQ245/2100E or simple the russian *Ural-375D.


Type 65/74 Twin-37mm Towed Anti-Aircraft Artillery






Type 59 57mm Towed Anti-Aircraft Artillery






When used in groups, the AA weapon can provide not only intensive anti-aircraft fire power, but also violent psychological effects on Indian aviation crews to reduce their effectiveness.*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Older KRL-122 in Bangladesh Army service:

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Older KRL-122 in Bangladesh Army service:
> 
> View attachment 12199
> 
> 
> View attachment 12200



That mean we did export it to Bangladesh ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> That mean we did export it to Bangladesh ?



Yeah we did... even exported Baktar Shikan ATGMs if im not wrong.


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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah we did... even exported Baktar Shikan ATGMs if im not wrong.



I know that we did export Bakthars Shikans to them but never about the KRL-122 ...good to know.


----------



## MilSpec

Aren't Tracked towed arty's just so freaking beautiful....

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## Inception-06

sandy_3126 said:


> Aren't Tracked towed arty's just so freaking beautiful....



which one you mean ? ........we have two tracked Systems ?


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## MilSpec

Ulla said:


> which one you mean ? ........we have two tracked Systems ?


in general, I am a heavy machinery fanboy, Huge howitzer barrels protruding out of a tank chasis is a sight to see...


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## HAIDER



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## Basel

@HAIDER: what are specifications of M110A2s of PA and have they upgraded them to current standards?


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## Kompromat

sandy_3126 said:


> in general, I am a heavy machinery fanboy, Huge howitzer barrels protruding out of a tank chasis is a sight to see...




M-110A2, these things are pornographic

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## blain2

Ulla said:


> I think this are the 130mm M-59IIM, the firing Position looks well prepared, it shows the dicipline of the Pakistani Gunners. What I cant understand is why they ise blue sand sacks whick can bee seen from 100 of meters by the Enemy.
> View attachment 10268
> 
> 
> Pakitani military personnels man long-range guns mounted on ditches along the Pakistan and Afghanistan border near Mohmand, 27 August 2003. Guns !
> 
> View attachment 10265
> 
> 
> A 81mm Mortar, I think it is the M3 81mm Mortar, ituth African mortar based upon the French Hotchkiss-Brandt MO-81-61 mortar, adapted for local manufacture. The M3 81mm Mortar fires a 4.4 kgbomb between 100 metres and 5000 metres at a rate of fire of up to 15 rounds-per-minute.
> 
> View attachment 10267


The blue sandbags were probably what was available to prepare the gun emplacement. These guns are usually deployed in secure rear locations where the chances of attack are fairly low due to the security around.



Basel said:


> @HAIDER: what are specifications of M110A2s of PA and have they upgraded them to current standards?


These 8 inch SPHs are out of service with most armies. There are no upgrades ongoing for them. We are maintaining them to the standards originally built.

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## Basel

blain2 said:


> These 8 inch SPHs are out of service with most armies. There are no upgrades ongoing for them. We are maintaining them to the standards originally built.



Why they are obsolete for most armies? is it not worth it? if yes then why PA is maintaining them what capability those add which other systems in PA don't offer?


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## Tacticool

blain2 said:


> The blue sandbags were probably what was available to prepare the gun emplacement. These guns are usually deployed in secure rear locations where the chances of attack are fairly low due to the security around.


These blue bags were for foundation later covered with mud. Compare two pics of arty gun

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> I know that we did export Bakthars Shikans to them but never about the KRL-122 ...good to know.


 
B/Shikans were exported to Malaysia.

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## fatman17

Artillery

acquisitions of artillery with advanced capabilities is in marked contrast to the problems being experienced by the indian army in this domain.

Self-Propelled Howitzers
it was decided in 2005 that the army urgently required more self-propelled medium and heavy artillery pieces, and agreement with the US was reached in 2006 for supply of M109A5 155mm SPH at an estimated cost of USD56m. deliveries were completed in 2010, with the order totalling 115 units.
NORINCO may also supply approx. 90 SH1 155mm SPH although no contract negotiations have been announced.

155mm M109A2 - 200 in service
155mm M109A5 - 115 in service
203mm M110A2 - 40 in service (60 original)
105mm M7 - 50 in service (kept in reserve)

Towed Howitzers
in 2007, 12 turkish 155mm T-155 Panter towed howitzers were delivered and it is understood that local assembly has been undertaken in Pakistan, at the HIT facility for a further 18 platforms. ammo for the T-155 is also being manufactured domestically by POF under a deal signed in 2008 with Nexter munitions of France. additionally Pakistan has purchased 10 artillery simulators from Turkey, the first of which entered service at the School of Artillery in 2008.

105mm Model 56P - Pack Howitzer - 110 in service
105mm M101 - Howitzer - 216 in service (original 300)
122mm Type 83 (D-30) - Howitzer - 143 in service
122mm Type 54 (M-30) - Howitzer - 490 in service
155mm M198 - Howitzer - 124 in service
155mm M114 - Howitzer - 144 in service
155mm T-155 Panter - Howitzer - 30 in service and / or assembly underway.
8in (203mm) M115 - Howitzer - 28 in service.
130mm Type 59-1 (M-46) - Field Gun - 400 in service
85mm Type 56 - Field Gun - 180 in service
100mm Type 59 - Field Gun - n/a
122mm Type 60 (D-74) - Field Gun - 200 in service
155mm M59 - Medium Gun - 30 in service

Multiple Rocket Launcher System
Pakistan is developing its own MRLS, the Azar. this is likely being done in conjunction with China as it appears similar to the Chinese Type 81. Pakistan may also have an agreement to acquire 36 300mm A100 MRLS from China, but formal details have not been forthcoming.

107mm Type 81 - MRS - n/a
122mm Type 83 (Azar) - MRS - 45 in service
122mm BM-11 - MRS - n/a
122mm HE Yarmuk - MRS - n/a

Self-Propelled Mortars
Pakistan is seeking to procure self-propelled mortar systems to equip mechanized infantry formations with indigenous firepower to complement the recent improvement in Pakistans SP artillery formations. this capability is seen as a requirement given the planned increases in the number of fully mechanized formations, but both the Artillery Directorate and Strike Corps are more concerned with the effectiveness of SP Howitzers, and hence mortar procurement is likely to take second place and be based around converted M113's or similar systems.

120mm - Heavy Mortar - n/a
81mm - Light Mortar - n/a
60mm - Light Mortar - n/a


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## monitor

@Fatman Are Pakistan going to produce A100 under license ? a reputed Indian defence blog is reporting .


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## fatman17

monitor said:


> @Fatman Are Pakistan going to produce A100 under license ? a reputed Indian defence blog is reporting .


 
very likely as they seem to have the capability.


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## Inception-06

*BL 5.5-inch Medium Gun British artillery gun in service with the Pakistan Artillary in Kargil war 1999.*


Pakistani soldiers examine the British-made long range gun at Brasil Chu, 2 kilometers from the Line of Control, Tuesday, June 15, 1999 aiming at Kargil sector in India.

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## Inception-06

PAKISTANI 130mm heavy Guns on the way to to the Frontline !





Recently arrived heavy artillery guns are parked at Rawlpindi railway station for onward destiny at Pakistan-India border, Monday, June 28, 1999.

Pakistani soldier fixes target to Indian post in Gultari sector in northern Pakistan at the Line of Control between Pakistan and India, Thursday, Aug 29, 2002.

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## Alpha1

*Source: SIPRI Arms transfer Database*

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## Inception-06

Alpha1 said:


> View attachment 19606
> 
> *Source: SIPRI Arms transfer Database*



Have we still such HIGH (ca.400) numbers of the M30 122mm Gun in service ? (last time I did see this guns was in 2009 in operation against TTP).






Pakistani army troops arrive with their artillery in the Umar Abad area outside the troubled Buner district on April 29, 2009.

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## fatman17

Alpha1 said:


> View attachment 19606
> 
> *Source: SIPRI Arms transfer Database*


 
already posted. bhai check kia karo before posting



Ulla said:


> Have we still such HIGH (ca.400) numbers of the M30 122mm Gun in service ? (last time I did see this guns was in 2009 in operation against TTP).
> 
> View attachment 19677
> 
> 
> Pakistani army troops arrive with their artillery in the Umar Abad area outside the troubled Buner district on April 29, 2009.
> 
> View attachment 19678


 
if a weapon is well maintained as these artillery assets are, they still remain effective, as in this case against militants.

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## niaz

Hon Fatman 17,

I see you have included Chinese field guns under ‘Towed Howitzer’. To the best of my knowledge Type -59 Field Gun is a copy of Russian M-46 Towed Gun and not a Howitzer. Is there any other ‘GUN’ (capable of firing at angles less than 45 degree) in Pak Army service?


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## MilSpec

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i herd india was modrenising its Big guns?


nopes....


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## fatman17

niaz said:


> Hon Fatman 17,
> 
> I see you have included Chinese field guns under ‘Towed Howitzer’. To the best of my knowledge Type -59 Field Gun is a copy of Russian M-46 Towed Gun and not a Howitzer. Is there any other ‘GUN’ (capable of firing at angles less than 45 degree) in Pak Army service?


 
sir it is a field gun.

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## niaz

fatman17 said:


> sir it is a field gun.



Thanks, just wanted to know that in addition to the Chinese guns do we have other field guns (Not howitzers) in PA inventory.


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Artillery
> 
> acquisitions of artillery with advanced capabilities is in marked contrast to the problems being experienced by the indian army in this domain.
> 
> Self-Propelled Howitzers
> it was decided in 2005 that the army urgently required more self-propelled medium and heavy artillery pieces, and agreement with the US was reached in 2006 for supply of M109A5 155mm SPH at an estimated cost of USD56m. deliveries were completed in 2010, with the order totalling 115 units.
> NORINCO may also supply approx. 90 SH1 155mm SPH although no contract negotiations have been announced.
> 
> 155mm M109A2 - 200 in service
> 155mm M109A5 - 115 in service
> 203mm M110A2 - 40 in service (60 original)
> 105mm M7 - 50 in service (kept in reserve)
> 
> Towed Howitzers
> in 2007, 12 turkish 155mm T-155 Panter towed howitzers were delivered and it is understood that local assembly has been undertaken in Pakistan, at the HIT facility for a further 18 platforms. ammo for the T-155 is also being manufactured domestically by POF under a deal signed in 2008 with Nexter munitions of France. additionally Pakistan has purchased 10 artillery simulators from Turkey, the first of which entered service at the School of Artillery in 2008.
> 
> 105mm Model 56P - Pack Howitzer - 110 in service
> 105mm M101 - Howitzer - 216 in service (original 300)
> 122mm Type 83 (D-30) - Howitzer - 143 in service
> 122mm Type 54 (M-30) - Howitzer - 490 in service
> 155mm M198 - Howitzer - 124 in service
> 155mm M114 - Howitzer - 144 in service
> 155mm T-155 Panter - Howitzer - 30 in service and / or assembly underway.
> 8in (203mm) M115 - Howitzer - 28 in service.
> 130mm Type 59-1 (M-46) - Field Gun - 400 in service
> 85mm Type 56 - Field Gun - 180 in service
> 100mm Type 59 - Field Gun - n/a
> 122mm Type 60 (D-74) - Field Gun - 200 in service
> 155mm M59 - Medium Gun - 30 in service
> 
> Multiple Rocket Launcher System
> Pakistan is developing its own MRLS, the Azar. this is likely being done in conjunction with China as it appears similar to the Chinese Type 81. Pakistan may also have an agreement to acquire 36 300mm A100 MRLS from China, but formal details have not been forthcoming.
> 
> 107mm Type 81 - MRS - n/a
> 122mm Type 83 (Azar) - MRS - 45 in service
> 122mm BM-11 - MRS - n/a
> 122mm HE Yarmuk - MRS - n/a
> 
> Self-Propelled Mortars
> Pakistan is seeking to procure self-propelled mortar systems to equip mechanized infantry formations with indigenous firepower to complement the recent improvement in Pakistans SP artillery formations. this capability is seen as a requirement given the planned increases in the number of fully mechanized formations, but both the Artillery Directorate and Strike Corps are more concerned with the effectiveness of SP Howitzers, and hence mortar procurement is likely to take second place and be based around converted M113's or similar systems.
> 
> 120mm - Heavy Mortar - n/a
> 81mm - Light Mortar - n/a
> 60mm - Light Mortar - n/a


Hey Guys do we really have SH-1 or not because no deal was signed also for A-100 MRLS but we have those in our Arsenal so wikkipedia is saying we have more than 200 SH-1 Artillery is their any truth in it or not @Rashid Mahmood @Alpha1 @

@jaibi @Oscar @Aeronaut


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> Hey Guys do we really have SH-1 or not because no deal was signed also for A-100 MRLS but we have those in our Arsenal so wikkipedia is saying we have more than 200 SH-1 Artillery is their any truth in it or not @Rashid Mahmood @Alpha1 @
> 
> @jaibi @Oscar @Aeronaut




As per this site, Pakistan initially acquired 90 SH-1 pieces in 2011.

SH1 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com


The AR1A multiple launch rocket system was developed from the A-100. The previous A-100 was introduced in the late 1990s, but it was not accepted to service with the Chinese army. The AR1A artillery rocket system was first demonstrated in 2009. This MLRS is based on the Russian 9K58 Smerch technology. It is a further development of the PHL 03 which is in service with the Chinese army. *The AR1A is being actively proposed for export customers. Some sources claim, that Pakistan procured a battalion of the AR1A systems (36 launchers) for trials and evaluation. It is referred as the A-100E. A follow-on order is also likely.* It was purchased in response to India's acquisition of the Russian 9A52-2T Smerch (variant of the original 9K58 Smerch). Pakistan also considers transferring production of this system from China. Both the Smerch and the A-100E are 300-mm MLRS systems. Recently it was reported that Armenia ordered unspecified number of these artillery systems.

AR1A Multiple Launch Rocket System | Military-Today.com

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## Bilal.

Rashid Mahmood said:


> As per this site, Pakistan initially acquired 90 SH-1 pieces in 2011.
> 
> SH1 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com



Are we manufacturing Turkish Panter locally? There were TV news long time ago but nothing was heard after that...


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## Zarvan

Bilal. said:


> Are we manufacturing Turkish Panter locally? There were TV news long time ago but nothing was heard after that...


yes we are

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## Informant

Those are some real old pics!


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## Rashid Mahmood

Bilal. said:


> Are we manufacturing Turkish Panter locally? There were TV news long time ago but nothing was heard after that...





: Pakistan Army - 52 in Service. 12 ordered for evaluation in 2007 from Turkey and delivered between 2008-2009. 
40 more ordered in 2009 & delivered between 2011-2012. Locally produced under license by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

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## waz

AR3 Multiple Launch Rocket System | Military-Today.com

Pakistan should go up one level in the MLRS range.


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## Inception-06

Rashid Mahmood said:


> : Pakistan Army - 52 in Service. 12 ordered for evaluation in 2007 from Turkey and delivered between 2008-2009.
> 40 more ordered in 2009 & delivered between 2011-2012. Locally produced under license by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).



are you sure ? If that is the case why it was never presented on Pakistan Ideas exhibition......


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> are you sure ? If that is the case why it was never presented on Pakistan Ideas exhibition......


 
PK not allowed to sell to other countries. the Panter is for PA use only.

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> PK not allowed to sell to other countries. the Panter is for PA use only.


But even then they can show it in exhibition to show case the manufacturing capabilities the same way we display our ballistic missiles.

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> PK not allowed to sell to other countries. the Panter is for PA use only.



We did show in passt also our atomic-missile inventory which is not for sell !!!!


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> We did show in passt also our atomic-missile inventory which is not for sell !!!!


 only at march 23rd parade.


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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> : Pakistan Army - 52 in Service. 12 ordered for evaluation in 2007 from Turkey and delivered between 2008-2009.
> 40 more ordered in 2009 & delivered between 2011-2012. Locally produced under license by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).


52 are those we got from Turkey how many we have produced in Pakistan on our own its not known yet I think we would have produced at least 20 more by now


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> only at march 23rd parade.



Galat-wronge ^^

we had showm our missiles not only at 23rd parade but also at the exhibition Pakistan Ideas 2008 !


was said:


>



Images from IDEAS 2008 | Page 7


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## fatman17

SH-1 is not in PK service.
60 Panters are now in service.



Ulla said:


> Galat-wronge ^^
> 
> we had showm our missiles not only at 23rd parade but also at the exhibition Pakistan Ideas 2008 !
> 
> 
> Images from IDEAS 2008 | Page 7


 
true but not for sales to any country. just to show that Pk Defence industry products.


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## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> 52 are those we got from Turkey how many we have produced in Pakistan on our own its not known yet I think we would have produced at least 20 more by now



12 Panters were delivered for tests/evaluation and 60 more were produced by Pakistan under ToT between 2011 and 2013. So, the no. in PA service now stands at 72.....







I believe the final no. will be around 120...

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> SH-1 is not in PK service.
> 60 Panters are now in service.
> 
> 
> .



SH-1 is in service with Pakistan Army, I will post latter pictures, I have go now to janaza, father of my friend died !

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## Indus Falcon

Ulla said:


> SH-1 is in service with Pakistan Army, I will post latter pictures, I have go now to janaza, father of my friend died !


Very sorry to hear about the loss of your friends father.

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## PWFI

Ulla said:


> SH-1 is in service with Pakistan Army, I will post latter pictures, I have go now to janaza, father of my friend died !


inalila hai wa ina ilayhi rajioun

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## Inception-06

Abu Nasar said:


> Very sorry to hear about the loss of your friends father.



Yes it is sad, because the friend is 20, the same age when my father died, and he did came to my fathers Janazza,thx for your words ! Inshallah they will get their place in Jannad !



PWFI said:


> inalila hai wa ina ilayhi rajioun


Inshallah they will get their place in Jannad !

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## Nishan_101

Why not JV with Turkey on Building 56mm, 70mm, 110mm and 155mm guns

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## Manticore

Ulla said:


> SH-1 is in service with Pakistan Army, I will post latter pictures,


I had posted the online available pics on page 5-6 however am eagerly waiting your pics


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## Inception-06

Manticore said:


> I had posted the online available pics on page 5-6 however am eagerly waiting your pics



OK I am sorry


fatman17 said:


> SH-1 is not in PK service.
> 60 Panters are now in service.
> 
> 
> 
> true but not for sales to any country. just to show that Pk Defence industry products.





OK I admit, I have made a mistake, I have the M110 203mm SP Gun confused on the images of Azme e nau 2010 with the SH-1. We dont have the SH-1 is not in service, such as Fatman has been reported correctly. But why not ? ^^

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Army is holding one of those 23rd march exhibitions... il try to get pics of A-100 etc..

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## Hakan

Nishan_101 said:


> Why not JV with Turkey on Building 56mm, 70mm, 110mm and 155mm guns



MKEK - Mechanical and Chemical Industry Company

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

I have a question...

Why does Pakistan lack self-propelled guns/artillery? Majority of Pakistani artillery is towed-artillery....but why not Self-propelled guns?

I mean, Pakistan has very few SPGs while thousands of towed-artillery pieces. Any idea why?


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## SQ8

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> I have a question...
> 
> Why does Pakistan lack self-propelled guns/artillery? Majority of Pakistani artillery is towed-artillery....but why not Self-propelled guns?
> 
> I mean, Pakistan has very few SPGs while thousands of towed-artillery pieces. Any idea why?



Defensive posture perhaps.

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## Sinnerman108

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> I have a question...
> 
> Why does Pakistan lack self-propelled guns/artillery? Majority of Pakistani artillery is towed-artillery....but why not Self-propelled guns?
> 
> I mean, Pakistan has very few SPGs while thousands of towed-artillery pieces. Any idea why?



You are incorrect.
Pakistan has a well equipped SP line.
Actually we have more SP pieces than India.

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## Imran Khan

salman108 said:


> You are incorrect.
> Pakistan has a well equipped SP line.
> Actually we have more SP pieces than India.


 I think over all not SP boss


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Defensive posture perhaps.



That or perhaps, the towed ones can be deployed equally swiftly at the borders. Not much terrain to cover. So why go with an expensive and cumbersome self propelled one.

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## cabatli_53

T-155 Panter and Firtina Howitzers were tested by Saudi Arabia as well.

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## cabatli_53

T-155 Panter Howitzer is under upgrading process in Aselsan installations. Aselsan is re-designing the moving sections of it to be lighter, simplier for use. With this way, The maintenance costs of Panter would be decreased. It is going to be stationed on field much quicker. With new designed gears, The probability of broken down of startegic moving parts would be decreased and new Fire control computers on body will provide better results to fire targets sensitively.

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## Kompromat

@cabatli_53 @Casus Belli 

Is there any development of a guided 155mm projectile and tracked mortar system in #Turkey?

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## revojam

Aeronaut said:


> @cabatli_53 @Casus Belli
> 
> Is there any development of a guided 155mm projectile and tracked mortar system in #Turkey?


No not yet.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> OK I am sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK I admit, I have made a mistake, I have the M110 203mm SP Gun confused on the images of Azme e nau 2010 with the SH-1. We dont have the SH-1 is not in service, such as Fatman has been reported correctly. But why not ? ^^


 
inferior to what we already have in our inventory.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

salman108 said:


> You are incorrect.
> Pakistan has a well equipped SP line.
> Actually we have more SP pieces than India.



They dont have SPGs.. unless u count the obsolete abbots?

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They dont have SPGs.. unless u count the obsolete abbots?



How many SPG we have, ca.300 ?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> How many SPG we have, ca.300 ?


 
thats about correct and they would like to have a total of 500.

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## razgriz19



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> How many SPG we have, ca.300 ?



"Almost" 400ish.


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## cabatli_53

Hope to see collaborations for Self Propelled Howitzers in following years. Turkey was planned to produce hundreds of Panter towed howitzers but Cause of changing requirements in additions to mobility disadvantages of towed platforms against self propelled one, Turkey stopped production of Panter's at 54.


At present, While 300+ Firtina SPH are being under production phase, Industry has succesfully developed Ammunition resupply vehicle for Firtina and delivered some of totally planned 72 ARV vehicles.

Prototipe ARV during trials...






I expect Pakistan armed forces are also going to invest on new generation SPH's in following years...

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## fatman17

cabatli_53 said:


> Hope to see collaborations for Self Propelled Howitzers in following years. Turkey was planned to produce hundreds of Panter towed howitzers but Cause of changing requirements in additions to mobility disadvantages of towed platforms against self propelled one, Turkey stopped production of Panter's at 54.
> 
> 
> At present, While 300+ Firtina SPH are being under production phase, Industry has succesfully developed Ammunition resupply vehicle for Firtina and delivered some of totally planned 72 ARV vehicles.
> 
> Prototipe ARV during trials...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I expect Pakistan armed forces are also going to invest on new generation SPH's in following years...


 
aslong as the M109A5 continues to be available via EDA, PK army will invest in them.

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## Nishan_101

Will Pakistan also wants US to transfer of all of its 209mm Artillery .....


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## Inception-06

Nishan_101 said:


> Will Pakistan also wants US to transfer of all of its 209mm Artillery .....



yes yes, did you not know it ?


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## airmarshal

Are Firtina & Panter Turkey's indigenously developed platforms? @cabatli_53


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## Nishan_101

Ulla said:


> yes yes, did you not know it ?


Then that is great! I wish it would happen as its needed....

Also I would really like to see more Cobras in action...


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## theprofessor

does Pakistan army use any guided artillery shells, for instance The M982 Excalibur.


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## Inception-06

What is written on the barrel of this Pakistani Artillary Guns ? Is it a parole ?


"First Quantry of Life" ? I could read this also on many picture from Guns at Siachen

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## Indus Falcon

I think it's written "with best wishes"

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## Inception-06

Abu Nasar said:


> I think it's written "with best wishes"



come on plz take it more serious !^^


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## Indus Falcon

Ulla said:


> come on plz take it more serious !^^


When I was young Lt., I remember once being stuck in a trench ,with my platoon, taking heavy machine gunfire, we screamed on the radio send best wishes to XXXXX. AND when we would hear the shells flying overhead - music to our ears! Believe me buddy it doesn't get any serious than that!

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## Gryphon

What happened to the WS-1B MLRS program? Can you shed some light on the topic considering this article and some unconfirmed reports.

@Aeronaut @fatman17 

Or it was cancelled in favour of A-100E ??


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## Dazzler

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> What happened to the WS-1B MLRS program? Can you shed some light on the topic considering this article and some unconfirmed reports.
> 
> @Aeronaut @fatman17
> 
> Or it was cancelled in favour of A-100E ??




WS-1B was tested along with A100, latter was selected.

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## fatman17

M109A5




N.Waziristan

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## Inception-06

notice the "empty boxes" of the Artillary rounds were used for the "Bunkers"

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## Indus Falcon

Ulla said:


> View attachment 32882


How old is this pic?


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## Inception-06

Abu Nasar said:


> How old is this pic?



I dont know, I would say 2-5 years old ?

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## A.P. Richelieu

theprofessor said:


> does Pakistan army use any guided artillery shells, for instance The M982 Excalibur.



Excalibur users: 



 Australia—pending FMS request


 Canada


 Norway—pending FMS request


 Sweden


 United States Army and Marine Corps


 Germany

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## Inception-06

Ulla said:


> I dont know, I would say 2-5 years old ?



A selam Brother but why are you asking ?

The Trucks are old systems imported from China Ural-4320/5557 with dual four-door cab.
..with the new upgraded 122mm Rockets which have a range of 40 km, this Systems are still efective to hammer down the enemy Tank and Infantry lines with deadly fire !


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> View attachment 32882
> 
> 
> View attachment 32884
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice the "empty boxes" of the Artillary rounds were used for the "Bunkers"





Abu Nasar said:


> How old is this pic?



its from the 90s...


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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> its from the 90s...



why Its from the 90s ? Because of the old Truck ?

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## Indus Falcon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> its from the 90s...


Thats what I thought. We don't have this truck chassis anymore.


----------



## fatman17



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## M.harishussain

i don't get that very much

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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 33569



The A-5 variant
i believe this is the first pic ever taken in the field in Pak

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## fatman17

*Oto Melara, Diehl Test Fire New Guided 155mm munition*
*
Jun. 17, 2014 - 11:59AM | By TOM KINGTON | *





*A successful test firing of the Vulcano 155mm ammunition was announced at Eurosatory. (Oto Melara)
PARIS* — Italy’s Oto Melara and Germany’s Diehl Defence have carried out a successful test firing of Oto Melara’s Vulcano 155mm munition, the firm said here at the Eurosatory exhibition.
Oto Melara and Diehl signed to team on large-caliber conventional and guided ammunition for navies and armies at Eurosatory two years ago.
The latest firing took place at Alkantpan Proving Ground in South Africa in May using a German PzH 2000 howitzer.
Oto Melara is testing unguided as well as guided 155mm and 127mm munitions that use GPS and an inertial measurement unit (IMU), as well as variants adding infrared targeting for naval use and semi-active laser targeting.
The 155mm rounds fired during the tests in South Africa were unguided as well as guided, and used GPS, IMU and semi-active laser targeting.
Infrared guidance was also tested, although IR will only be used with the 127mm naval munition.
An unguided shell was fired 52 kilometers, the maximum allowed at the test range. Oto Melara said the guided munition could have reached 80 kilometers.
The 155mm shell configuration has now been settled, an official at the show said, with full qualification expected to start by year end, qualification to be achieved in 2015 followed by production in 2016.
Italy and Germany, already customers for the Vulcano 127mm naval shell, are seen as potential customers for the 155mm version.
*Pakistan, which has sent officials to witness test firings in Italy, is also seen as a possible buyer of the 155mm munition.
Email: tkington@defensenews.com.*

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## HAIDER

Old tanks modified for counter insurgency.

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## Inception-06

Fieldmarshal said:


> The A-5 variant
> i believe this is the first pic ever taken in the field in Pak




And that here ?







HAIDER said:


> Old tanks modified for counter insurgency.




wrong topic or not ? --->*Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions*

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## Kompromat



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## fatman17

Pounding the militants

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 37165
> 
> Pounding the militants


Which Gun is this ?

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> Which Gun is this ?



The *130 mm towed field gun M-46 M1954 or the chinese which we have *Type-59IIM

Here is an legend example/picture/paint when we used more than 300 of this Guns in Kargil war against India.

"Allah u Akbar - Shelling Indian military positions. "-Kargil war 1999

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## fatman17

"bad boy"


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## Inception-06

The Elite Units of Pakistan Artillery are equipped with 140 pieces of the M198 155mm howitzer.





A Pakistani Mortar crew in training the fire skills.

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## Basel

Ulla said:


> The Elite Units of Pakistan Artillery are equipped with 140 pieces of the M198 155mm howitzer.



140 is too little for PA and they are towed and they don't look compatible with NCW warfare.



Ulla said:


> The 130 mm towed field gun M-46 M1954 or the chinese which we have Type-59IIM
> Here is an legend example/picture/paint when we used more than 300 of this Guns in Kargil war against India.
> "Allah u Akbar - Shelling Indian military positions. "-Kargil war 1999



Seen those in Kashmir during conflict, they did real damage to Indian side.


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## Reichmarshal

Ulla said:


> And that here ?
> View attachment 37006


 Thats not a A-5 variant
It's the earlier version, before the upgrade

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## WaLeEdK2

Do we use smart shells or smart bomb for our artillery? For example we have the GIDS takbir smart bomb but do we have that for artillery as well?


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## NP-complete

Right now Pakistan has around 2500 artillery pieces. We should increase them to around 4000. Concentrated artillery fire is more important than concentrated armour.


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## Inception-06

NP-complete said:


> Right now Pakistan has around 2500 artillery pieces. We should increase them to around 4000. Concentrated artillery fire is more important than concentrated armour.



What senseless comments are you 2014 Members posting ?



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Do we use smart shells or smart bomb for our artillery? For example we have the GIDS takbir smart bomb but do we have that for artillery as well?



Please use wikipedia, Artillery use grenades not bombs !


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## NP-complete

Ulla said:


> What senseless comments are you 2014 Members are posting ?


Whats senseless about it ? Should i mention how many artillery pieces were involved in various wars ?


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## WaLeEdK2

Please use wikipedia, Artillery use grenades not bombs ![/quote]



K so do we use any satellite guided technology for our artillery?


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## Inception-06

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please use wikipedia, Artillery use grenades not bombs !





K so do we use any satellite guided technology for our artillery?[/quote]

Yes.



NP-complete said:


> Whats senseless about it ? Should i mention how many artillery pieces were involved in various wars ?



Yes explain how many artillery pieces were involved in India-Pakistan wars !


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## NP-complete

Ulla said:


> Yes explain how many artillery pieces were involved in India-Pakistan wars !


Pakistan-India wars cannot be considered as proper wars. Just petty fights. Pakistan should build a total war capacity. India would never think about fighting us.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It would be nice to see an article on site that talks about relevance of Artillery in modern warfare, considering so much damage is done now a days by Air Strikes and precision guided weapons and cruise missiles and other Air to ground weapons. Or Even GPS based Missiles that are fired from Sea base platform

Is Artillery , still relevant in today's battle field vs usage of Tanks or Missile based systems or even Rocket launchers that seem to do massive damage


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## Inception-06

This picture were not posted before in this originals ! They are old but gold because in the Kargil war our Artillery was very effective and deadly for the Indian infantry, bunkers and logistic lines........So enjoy this glorious images.














Pakistan Artillery of Type-59 130 mm gun at Mushung (05.Jun.1999) during the Kargil War. Pakistani troops were able to bring down effective artillery fire on Indian positions through much of the conflict, since we commanded all heights.
















*Ordnance QF 25-pounder guns in service with the Frontier Corps (P.O.F is still selling the rounds for this gun).*
*



*

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## AUSTERLITZ

Pakistani self propelled artillery is very impressive-far better than ours atm,the rocket artillery too is modern but i find both india and pakistan having utterly old and obsolete towed artillery.I don't understand why PA bought panter artillery gun.It lacks an electronic fire control system,automatic crane and auto loader-necessary features of modern towed gun.Should have looked at a new chinese gun probably.
But still something is better than nothing which is the case for us.

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## Inception-06

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Pakistani self propelled artillery is very impressive-far better than ours atm,the rocket artillery too is modern but i find both india and pakistan having utterly old and obsolete towed artillery.I don't understand why PA bought panter artillery gun.It lacks an electronic fire control system,automatic crane and auto loader-necessary features of modern towed gun.Should have looked at a new chinese gun probably.
> But still something is better than nothing which is the case for us.




All Pakistani 130mm Type-59IIM towed gun (ca. 500) are upgraded to 155mm standard, according to a indian source.

Indian Analysts Rap Plan To Buy Homemade 130mm Artillery Gun | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## AUSTERLITZ

Ulla said:


> All Pakistani 130mm Type-59IIM towed gun (ca. 500) are upgraded to 155mm standard, according to a indian source.
> 
> Indian Analysts Rap Plan To Buy Homemade 130mm Artillery Gun | Defense News | defensenews.com



Yeah i think IA too upgraded 200 odd 130 mm guns from israelis,but these guns themselves are very old designs and lack modern features of towed guns like Electronic FCS,crane,autoloader etc.Even bofors and m198 which are the most advnaced towed guns in respective armies lack these features.All these towed guns in the subcontinent are a generation behind modern guns currently in use.

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## Inception-06

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Yeah i think IA too upgraded 200 odd 130 mm guns from israelis,but these guns themselves are very old designs and lack modern features of towed guns like Electronic FCS,crane,autoloader etc.Even bofors and m198 which are the most advnaced towed guns in respective armies lack these features.All these towed guns in the subcontinent are a generation behind modern guns currently in use.



Yes you are right, but I think both Armys are capable to use older equipment very effective. For example in high altitudes like Siachen and Kargil. The soviet equipment here the 130mm/155mm Type.59IIM/M-46 Guns is easier to maintain and cost effective compared to hightech guns. Highttech requires more education, highly qualified staff, more spare parts, more cost, more time, it's worth all this? So it comes also down to at what a battlefield is located, is it Siachen ? Desert of Thar ? Punjab ? etc.



just a example: Effects on Weapons
"Low barometric pressure affects the tools of war with a severity that equals its
impact on man. Thin air at high altitudes alters the trajectory of all projectiles that move
through the atmosphere. Projectiles are more efficient in low air pressure because of the ........

Cold weather affects weapon performance as well. Cyclic weapons perform 
poorly due to lubricant freezing and metal brittleness.50 A weapon fired in subzero 
temperatures crystallizes water vapor in the air, creating ice fog that hangs over the 
weapon and vapor trails that follow the round and obscures the gunner's vision.51 Frigid 
air reduces the range of projectiles and affects the burst characteristics of artillery 
projectiles. Deep snow absorbs most of the impact burst of artillery rounds. Mortars are 
significantly affected; a cold tube can prevent the propellant from completely burning, 
causing the round to lose range.
So I dont know if the 4 generations of Artillery guns would perform better than the Russian cold weather proofed 130mm Guns.....!

The Pakistan Army was even in 1999 very professional to bring fast, effective and deadly fire with the "old" 130mm Guns (not upgraded at this time) and WW2 british towed guns on Indian positions (indian source:in Kargil, 80% of indian casualties were attributed to Pakistani artillery). While the Indian Army did enjoy the luxery of the Bofors guns Electronic crane, autoloader etc......

source:

NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
Monterey, California
THESIS
Approved for public release, distribution is unlimited
HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT
AND THE FUTURE


Link:

http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

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## Inception-06

Ulla said:


> This picture were not posted before in this originals ! They are old but gold because in the Kargil war our Artillery was very effective and deadly for the Indian infantry, bunkers and logistic lines........So enjoy this glorious images.
> 
> 
> View attachment 136851
> View attachment 136853
> View attachment 136852
> 
> 
> Pakistan Artillery of Type-59 130 mm gun at Mushung (05.Jun.1999) during the Kargil War. Pakistani troops were able to bring down effective artillery fire on Indian positions through much of the conflict, since we commanded all heights.
> View attachment 136867
> View attachment 136868
> View attachment 136869
> View attachment 136870
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 136866
> *




The Pakistan Artillery during Kargil war here in detail:


"Doctors attributed over half of the Indian casualties evacuated to the military
hospital at Leh to indirect fire. NLI artillery frustrated troop movements on the
Srinagar-Leh Highway and destroyed the Indian Army's ammunition dump in the town of
Kargil. The firepower provided by NLI artillery and mortars thwarted initial Indian
Army assaults, but it would not be enough for the undermanned force to hold its
mountain outposts"

Three 120-mm and two 81-mm mortars stopped Indian assaults on the Tiger Hill
complex for several weeks. Well-developed mule tracks and wire communications
connected the positions, which sat in nullahs protected by steep mountainsides.
Coordinated indirect fire confused Indian offensives and inflicted heavy casualties

while India needed a massive artillery barrage, with as many as 1,200 rounds impacting
every 5 minutes to force an NLI retreat.....at Tiger Hill.
http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

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## Inception-06

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Yeah i think IA too upgraded 200 odd 130 mm guns from israelis,but these guns themselves are very old designs and lack modern features of towed guns like Electronic FCS,crane,autoloader etc.Even bofors and m198 which are the most advnaced towed guns in respective armies lack these features.All these towed guns in the subcontinent are a generation behind modern guns currently in use.




by the way 

"The lightweight Russian-designed M-46, which had been in service
with the Indian Army for decades, once again proved its worth on the battlefield. Its
ability to fire rapidly at low angles made it an indispensable source of close range fire
support, and harkened back to the German mountain guns that devastated Greek defenses
with direct fire during the Second World War"

http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

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## Capt.Popeye

Ulla said:


> by the way
> 
> "The lightweight Russian-designed M-46, which had been in service
> with the Indian Army for decades, once again proved its worth on the battlefield. Its
> ability to fire rapidly at low angles made it an indispensable source of close range fire
> support, and harkened back to the German mountain guns that devastated Greek defenses
> with direct fire during the Second World War"
> 
> http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf




You are absolutely correct about the M-46. Even though its an old gun, it has a tremendous punch. All that it lacks is mobility and a modern FCS. To offset that the IA has mounted some of them on Tank Chassis to make them into SPGH and has modified the FCS to some extent, though BFSR units are also embedded with some units to provide the necessary FC information. A few hundred have been up-gunned to 155mm caliber under the IA's Metamorphosis Project. Its pretty much IA's mainstay in Med. Arty.
A noteworthy point is that the M-46 was derived from a Naval Gun, which was a great success. Its success story some-what parallels that of the famed 88mm Gun of the Wehrmacht in WW 2. What was a high-velocity ack-ack gun became the most formidable anti-tank gun. It was simply the best gun produced by an combatant nation in that war.

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## Inception-06

Pakistani crew operates a 155 mm M-198:










The *M198 howitzer* is a medium-sized, towed artillery piece.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> Pakistani crew operates a 155 mm M-198:
> 
> View attachment 182757
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The *M198 howitzer* is a medium-sized, towed artillery piece.



@Xeric (hes a gunner) and posted some nice pics of the M-198... in some thread.

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## Xeric

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Xeric (hes a gunner) and posted some nice pics of the M-198... in some thread.


Like this: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/542389163517947906

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## Sulman Badshah

Difference between artillery shell caliber .... It is my shot 

25 pdr 
105 mm
130 mm
155 mm
203 mm

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Xeric said:


> Like this:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/542389163517947906

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 183187
> View attachment 183188
> View attachment 183189



@DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric

A selam Brothers>

What are your experience as a gunner ?

Is it a standard in all Pakistani Artillery regiments to have 12.7mm AA Gun mounted on the Truck for self-protection or is this only a decesion made by local commander ? Because sometimes I miss the 12.7mm AA guns as a secondary weapon on Pakistani A.Trucks ! What is the official order and tactic ?


To install the 12.7mm on (Artillery) Trucks is soviet military doctrine/tactic from WW2 (a very effective tactic to protect the Artillery guns from air and ground threat):

some examples:





Pakistani example with 12.7mm :

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric
> 
> A selam Brothers>
> 
> What are your experience as a gunner ?
> 
> Is it a standard in all Pakistani Artillery regiments to have 12.7mm AA Gun mounted on the Truck for self-protection or is this only a decesion made by local commander ? Because sometimes I miss the 12.7mm AA guns as a secondary weapon on Pakistani A.Trucks ! What is the official order and tactic ?
> 
> 
> To install the 12.7mm on (Artillery) Trucks is soviet military doctrine/tactic from WW2 (a very effective tactic to protect the Artillery guns from air and ground threat):
> 
> some examples:
> View attachment 183286
> 
> 
> Pakistani example with 12.7mm :
> View attachment 183287
> 
> View attachment 183290



atleast on all armoured vehicles..

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## ghazi52

Nice sharing.....................

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## Path-Finder

Still waiting to get solid confirmation if SH-1 will/has entered service, infact we should induct self propell all guns. Norinco AH-4 155mm should be looked into for northern areas as light 155mm.

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> atleast on all armoured vehicles..



@DESERT FIGHTER thx for the answer !

For armoured vehicles its clear and logical, but for Artillery Trucks it looks different from the situation, which I have analysed over the years, some Trucks have it and some not. The Mercedes Benz Trucks (like in the pictures above) which carry the US-155mm M198 guns always were equipped with the 12.7mm AA Guns, while older and other types like the 105mm artillery Gun- Truck units did not have this secondary weapon, cant understand the logic of Pakistan Army, is it corruption, lack of funds (cant be because 12.7mm is mass produced in Pakistan) or is just undiciplin by the Artillery commanders...or is it like that: only the Elite Artillery Units (M198) have the luxery and dicipline for the secondary weapon @Xeric ?


donty worry I will ask two more questions later !

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## Xeric

Ulla said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER thx for the answer !
> 
> For armoured vehicles its clear and logical, but for Artillery Trucks it looks different from the situation, which I have analysed over the years, some Trucks have it and some not. The Mercedes Benz Trucks (like in the pictures above) which carry the US-155mm M198 guns always were equipped with the 12.7mm AA Guns, while older and other types like the 105mm artillery Gun- Truck units did not have this secondary weapon, cant understand the logic of Pakistan Army, is it corruption, lack of funds (cant be because 12.7mm is mass produced in Pakistan) or is just undiciplin by the Artillery commanders...or is it like that: only the Elite Artillery Units (M198) have the luxery and dicipline for the secondary weapon @Xeric ?
> 
> 
> donty worry I will ask two more questions later !


Stop overloading your commonsense and blaming the army for being undisciplined or corrupt as there is no 'tactics' involved in placing an 12.7 or an MG on a Gun-Tower.

Unlike a tank or any other armored vehical, an artillery gun does not go into battle while it is still attached to a truck. The 12.7 is there for protection from air during move only. Once deployed, there are other measures which ofcourse will not be discussed. Any artillery unit or battery is authorized with a specific number of air defence weapons which may not be restricted to 12.7s only. So, just because you cant see a 12.7 mounted on every (Pakistani) gun-tower in the pictures that you see on the internet, it would not automatically imply that there is 'lack of funds,' corruption,' or 'lack of discipline' in the military per se.

Now, if you want that i should elaborate upon how we protect our guns from air attack to include the number / type of AA weapons authorized to a unit, just so that your ignorance can be tackled, sorry sir, that's not something i would like to dwell upon.

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## TheFlyingPretzel

The PA really ought to invest in a handful of Denel G6's. These things mean business!

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## Path-Finder

Yea Denel G6 is a Beast. It would do wonders for our Arty

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Yea Denel G6 is a Beast. It would do wonders for our Arty


G5/G6 are top of the line long range base bleed howitzers. i have been close both these during several field exercises long time back. It is dead accurate over 40km and more. The issue we have in selling is the kickbacks and pressure US puts on other countries.

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## Sulman Badshah

denel said:


> G5/G6 are top of the line long range base bleed howitzers. i have been close both these during several field exercises long time back. It is dead accurate over 40km and more. The issue we have in selling is the kickbacks and pressure US puts on other countries.


I think G6 will be suitable desert regions ....PA should acquire them under TOT


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## denel

Sulman Badshah said:


> I think G6 will be suitable desert regions ....PA should acquire them under TOT


It is perfecty suited for dusty conditions like we have over the kalahari and temperatures are in the same range. we tried to sell long time ago but PA is influenced by US and own procurement officers wanted too many kickbacks .. so it was abandoned.
UAE and Morocco use them. Our surplus retired MRAP Casspirs from late 70s' are in Sri-Lanka and India (Kashmir footage... you can see them).


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## Sulman Badshah

denel said:


> It is perfecty suited for dusty conditions like we have over the kalahari and temperatures are in the same range. we tried to sell long time ago but PA is influenced by US and own procurement officers wanted too many kickbacks .. so it was abandoned.
> UAE and Morocco use them. Our surplus retired MRAP Casspirs from late 70s' are in Sri-Lanka and India (Kashmir footage... you can see them).



Now PA isn't interested in USA in arty ... PA is more likely to get chinese or turkish one ... 

I personally think south african G6 is a better option because it have good range , accuracy and moreover it got good speed so it is more suitable for shoot and scoot 

denel tech is acceptable and meet the west standards ....

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## denel

dont forget it is also mine resistant proof.
Even the G5 comes with a power unit which allows it to move the G5 from place to place without a need of a truck.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> G5/G6 are top of the line long range base bleed howitzers. i have been close both these during several field exercises long time back. It is dead accurate over 40km and more. The issue we have in selling is the kickbacks and pressure US puts on other countries.


India has the truck Chassis based G5? with TOT being produced. G6 we should be able to acquire and stick a middle finger at uncle sam unless India sabotages the deal.


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## -SINAN-

Sulman Badshah said:


> Now PA isn't interested in USA in arty ... PA is more likely to get chinese or turkish one ...
> 
> I personally think south african G6 is a better option because it have good range , accuracy and moreover it got good speed so it is more suitable for shoot and scoot
> 
> denel tech is acceptable and meet the west standards ....



Here you go brother.

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## Selous

Don't forget that the G6 does not require additional units to protect it...it is capable of self defense.
@denel boet where can one go to see this beast ? I don't recall seeing it in the Bloem armour museum. I have seen the G5 though.


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## VelocuR

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> The PA really ought to invest in a handful of Denel G6's. These things mean business!
> 
> View attachment 183379
> View attachment 183380



Not necessary, Pakistan doesn't need this, new technology of latest planes like F-35 is capable to destroy these artilleries in no time. Advanced Drones can detect it as well.


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## Selous

VelocuR said:


> Not necessary, Pakistan doesn't need this, new technology of latest planes like F-35 is capable to destroy these artilleries in no time. Advanced Drones can detect it as well.


No man...artillery is always necessary. How else are we going to provide effective support for ground troops ? We are not always going to fight the US...besides a gun battery can be protected by SAMs.


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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


> Here you go brother.



I personally like firtina more (probably one of best in chassis ) ... wish that our army should have gone for it instead of M109 A5 

I like G6 because of its tyres instead of chassis . tyres provide better shoot and scoot capability

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## VelocuR

Selous said:


> No man...artillery is always necessary. How else are we going to provide effective support for ground troops ? We are not always going to fight the US...besides a gun battery can be protected by SAMs.



No, I know we don't going to fight US, there are some countries that has technology to destroy old-fashioned artilleries, think something else better next ten years. Maybe A-10 Thunderbolt better suit for PA to detect bad talibans and reduce loss of our 200 soldiers from North Waziristan including these artilleries.


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## Inception-06

Xeric said:


> Stop overloading your commonsense and blaming the army for being undisciplined or corrupt as there is no 'tactics' involved in placing an 12.7 or an MG on a Gun-Tower.
> 
> Unlike a tank or any other armored vehical, an artillery gun does not go into battle while it is still attached to a truck. The 12.7 is there for protection from air during move only. Once deployed, there are other measures which ofcourse will not be discussed. Any artillery unit or battery is authorized with a specific number of air defence weapons which may not be restricted to 12.7s only. So, just because you cant see a 12.7 mounted on every (Pakistani) gun-tower in the pictures that you see on the internet, it would not automatically imply that there is 'lack of funds,' corruption,' or 'lack of discipline' in the military per se.
> 
> Now, if you want that i should elaborate upon how we protect our guns from air attack to include the number / type of AA weapons authorized to a unit, just so that your ignorance can be tackled, sorry sir, that's not something i would like to dwell upon.





A selam

I dont have so much time right now, thus I will reply again thoroughly to your post later, but first of all: I dont blame Pakistani Army in fact I love Pakistani Army because I am Pakistani as well, and I dont expect you to give me any high classified Information about anything related to Army, I know that you are a Soldier but you dont have to be so rude, anyways, I didnt want to be rude or dissrespectful to anyone, I am just curios and interested in army of my beloved country Pakistan.

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## Xeric

Ulla said:


> A selam
> 
> I dont have so much time right now, thus i will reply again thoroughly to your post later, but first of all: I dont blame Pakistani Army in fact I love Pakistani Army because I am Pakistani as well, and I dont expect you to give me any high classified Information about anything related to Army, I know that you are a Soldier but you dont have to be so rude, anyways, I didnt want to be rude or *dissrespectful to anyone*, I am just curios and interested in army of my beloved country Pakistan.


Yeah, you can begin by using some commonsense


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## Inception-06

Xeric said:


> Yeah, you can begin by using some commonsense



OK sir !

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## Zarvan

Xeric said:


> Yeah, you can begin by using some commonsense


There were reports by Indian media few months ago than Pakistan is getting one of its old Artillery Guns upgraded to 155 MM standard a Towed Gun in China around 400 of them do you know which Artillery Gun is that ?
@Ulla @fatman17 @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> There were reports by Indian media few months ago than Pakistan is getting one of its old Artillery Guns upgraded to 155 MM standard a Towed Gun in China around 400 of them do you know which Artillery Gun is that ?
> @Ulla @fatman17 @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER



Dont believe in india media reports - mainly propaganda to buy more weapons.

If PA has the option / opportunity they would prefer additional M109A5s.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> India has the truck Chassis based G5? with TOT being produced. G6 we should be able to acquire and stick a middle finger at uncle sam unless India sabotages the deal.



no india doesnt... the denel gun was offered to india .. (denel was also blacklisted-- for offering kickbacks)..


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## Bilal.

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> no india doesnt... the denel gun was offered to india .. (denel was also blacklisted-- for offering kickbacks)..



What happened to the panter deal. There is no news after the initial report of 12 procured.


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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> no india doesnt... the denel gun was offered to india .. (denel was also blacklisted-- for offering kickbacks)..



there is a TATA - Denel venture. looks like a decent platform.
TRISHUL: TATA Power SED's 155mm/52-cal Motorised Howitzer Detailed


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> there is a TATA - Denel venture. looks like a decent platform.
> TRISHUL: TATA Power SED's 155mm/52-cal Motorised Howitzer Detailed



Denel gun on a tata truck.. not in service.. just offered..


Bilal. said:


> What happened to the panter deal. There is no news after the initial report of 12 procured.



In service.


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## Bilal.

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Denel gun on a tata truck.. not in service.. just offered..
> 
> 
> In service.



Just 12? That's quite a low number.


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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Denel gun on a tata truck.. not in service.. just offered..


No 155mm for hindia?


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## HANI

What is the status of chines truck mounted SH 1 ........? There r some reports last year that we are getting those


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal. said:


> Just 12? That's quite a low number.



Nope... unless you think regiments can be raised with just 12 ...(nobody just gets 12).

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> There were reports by Indian media few months ago than Pakistan is getting one of its old Artillery Guns upgraded to 155 MM standard a Towed Gun in China around 400 of them do you know which Artillery Gun is that ?
> @Ulla @fatman17 @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER



I cant confirm the upgrade, only know the China is capable of doing that, India has upgraded a large number of his M-46 130mm Artillery inventory, so why not Pakistan. But for that you should better ask @Xeric, hes is a expert in Artillery !


The M-46 original soviet name, was sold to China, from where Pakistan did buy the Type-59 130mm and Type-59-1 (upgraded and lighter Variant).


Here is picture, it was the main Gun during the Kargil war with India and the main used Artillery gun against Taliban by Pakistan Army:

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## fatman17

Bilal. said:


> What happened to the panter deal. There is no news after the initial report of 12 procured.



Upto 40 have been inducted according to some sources

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> Upto 40 have been inducted according to some sources



I think that's according to SIPRI which isn't very reliable. If MODP year book says so then it would be a confirmed case.


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## humza_313

What is the latest news about upgrading artillery units currently in possession of 130mm guns to M-109 Howitzer? Because I have heard that they are being de-commissioned.



fatman17 said:


> Upto 40 have been inducted according to some sources


Sir, what about replacement of the obsolete M-46 (130mm) guns with the new M-109A2/A5?


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## Reichmarshal

humza_313 said:


> What is the latest news about upgrading artillery units currently in possession of 130mm guns to M-109 Howitzer? Because I have heard that they are being de-commissioned.
> 
> 
> Sir, what about replacement of the obsolete M-46 (130mm) guns with the new M-109A2/A5?


Their no A2. All M 109have been upgraded to A5 standardstandard


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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> Upto 40 have been inducted according to some sources


I am sure that 40 is 2 to 3 years ago when production was initiated a year before 40 were inducted now its plus 80


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## Inception-06

humza_313 said:


> What is the latest news about upgrading artillery units currently in possession of 130mm guns to M-109 Howitzer? Because I have heard that they are being de-commissioned.
> 
> 
> Sir, what about replacement of the obsolete M-46 (130mm) guns with the new M-109A2/A5?




read my last post !

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## fatman17

Bilal. said:


> I think that's according to SIPRI which isn't very reliable. If MODP year book says so then it would be a confirmed case.



Why sipri not reliable?



alimobin memon said:


> I am sure that 40 is 2 to 3 years ago when production was initiated a year before 40 were inducted now its plus 80



Doubt it very much



humza_313 said:


> What is the latest news about upgrading artillery units currently in possession of 130mm guns to M-109 Howitzer? Because I have heard that they are being de-commissioned.
> 
> 
> Sir, what about replacement of the obsolete M-46 (130mm) guns with the new M-109A2/A5?



The chinese copy of the M46 is not obsolete

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> Why sipri not reliable?



Because many of their figures are estimates and projections.


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## fatman17

Bilal. said:


> Because many of their figures are estimates and projections.



One needs to read the comments section to understand the details.


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## Neutron

Pakistan artillery upgrade Discussion. Isn't it very complex when you imagine about artillery? 

No one asked any question about accuracy , complex procedures, modren target acquisition means. OP and CP procedures and complex met messages. I don't know what is the mandate of this thread and I am new on this forum don't know much about PDF. It is intresting forum with good military debates.


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## Super Falcon

Today multi purpise rocket launchers system are main pevit of any artillery force we have A 100 we need to induct more systems with greater range and power these are easy to use and bring max damage than artillery


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## fatman17

Threads not about tactics and training


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## Basel

I found this interesting video (sorry if already posted)

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## wiseone2

fatman17 said:


> Why sipri not reliable?
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt it very much
> 
> 
> 
> The chinese copy of the M46 is not obsolete



it depends on your definition for being obsolete. i am sure they can be lethal. are they accurate ? are they reliable ? what is the wear and tear ?


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## JPMM

alimobin memon said:


> I am sure that 40 is 2 to 3 years ago when production was initiated a year before 40 were inducted now its plus 80


 
They must have some 72 Panther, 12 ordered in 2007, delivered for evaluation on 2008-2009 and 60 signed in 2009 and delivered in 2011-2013. They must be employed in 6 Medium Artillery Regiments, these are groupped in 3 Artillery Brigades (24 each) (GUESS)!!!!!!!

They must have some 124 M198, 75 ordered in 1981, delivered in 1984-1986, 49 ordered in 1988, 25 delivered in 1989 and 24 embargoed in 1992-1995, delivered in 1996. They must be employed in 10 Medium Artillery Regiments, these are groupped in 5 Artillery Brigades (24 each), 4 are in the Artillery School (GUESS)!!!!!!!

The M114 155mm, M115 203mm, M101 105mm, M46 130mm (Russian Made)and M59 155mm are in reserve!! (GUESS)!!!!!!!

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## fatman17

Meanwhile china has delivered 39 out of a total of 90 SH-1 SP guns contracted during 2012-13.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Meanwhile china has delivered 39 out of a total of 90 SH-1 SP guns contracted during 2012-13.


bro do u have any pic in Pak colours of these guns ???

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## fatman17

^^ will search

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Meanwhile china has delivered 39 out of a total of 90 SH-1 SP guns contracted during 2012-13.


Are you sure about this ??? @DESERT FIGHTER

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Are you sure about this ??? @DESERT FIGHTER




Quite sure

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## Inception-06

Sorry for asking again, but what is the meaning this words "IST QTR OF LIFE" it is now written on every Pakistani Artillery barrel !


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## fatman17

Was talking to a recently retd officer abt the parade. I questioned him abt some systems not part of the parade. His opinion was that the missing systems are either deployed in sensitive areas or are still under training of crews. I specifically asked about the SH1 SP gun the Spada SAM Ra'ad the A 100 etc

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> Was talking to a recently retd officer abt the parade. I questioned him abt some systems not part of the parade. His opinion was that the missing systems are either deployed in sensitive areas or are still under training of crews. I specifically asked about the SH1 SP gun the Spada SAM Ra'ad the A 100 etc



A-100s,M109s (15 SP),M110s were displayed along with SLC-2s... Yeah they didn't show a lot of equipment..


P.S: Sir SH-1 confirmed???
I'm guess the "worn out" lookin SH-1 in army camo dip layer at IDEAS 15 was from our own inventory ?







Also the Panter production has stopped (Turks are developing an upgraded+ lighter variant) so probably HIT routing for those too.

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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A-100s,M109s (15 SP),M110s were displayed along with SLC-2s... Yeah they didn't show a lot of equipment..
> 
> 
> P.S: Sir SH-1 confirmed???
> I'm guess the "worn out" lookin SH-1 in army camo dip layer at IDEAS 15 was from our own inventory ?
> 
> View attachment 207284
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Panter production has stopped (Turks are developing an upgraded+ lighter variant) so probably HIT routing for those too.




This particular SH1 was the 1st example received for test and evaluation.

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## fatman17

WTF

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> This particular SH1 was the 1st example received for test and evaluation.



This rumour has been going around since 09... Good to see something come out of it.



fatman17 said:


> WTF


Arab rebels


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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> This rumour has been going around since 09... Good to see something come out of it.
> 
> 
> Arab rebels



U mean IS l thought they looked like FC


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A-100s,M109s (15 SP),M110s were displayed along with SLC-2s... Yeah they didn't show a lot of equipment..
> 
> 
> P.S: Sir SH-1 confirmed???
> I'm guess the "worn out" lookin SH-1 in army camo dip layer at IDEAS 15 was from our own inventory ?
> 
> View attachment 207284
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Panter production has stopped (Turks are developing an upgraded+ lighter variant) so probably HIT routing for those too.


Well I agree because I don't think this Como is used by China


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> U mean IS l thought they looked like FC



Probably fsa ... thats a homemade mortar..


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## fatman17

In the rear with the gear


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## fatman17

Artillery in action

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## fatman17

Power

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## fatman17

On the move

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## black-hawk_101

Pakistan should procure more and more 203mm artillery from US and other operators at Cheap. Upgrade them and use them all over Pakistan against terrorist. Try to develop guided rounds for such gun.


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## AsifIjaz

lolz.... all over Pakistan... nishan thanks for the few minutes of laughter. much appreciate it

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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> Pakistan should procure more and more 203mm artillery from US and other operators at Cheap. Upgrade them and use them all over Pakistan against terrorist. Try to develop guided rounds for such gun.


203 mm is old school system ... they have more weight 
difficult to transport and their firing rate is very slow 

all of the modern systems are 155 MM standards ... Should procure truck mounted 155 mm shoot and scoot capable ... these system can easily be transported and have internal magazine
advantages of 155 mm over 203 mm
their range is better and almost doubled than 203 mm 
their sustain rate of fire is higher than 203mm
their accuracy and firing rate is better 
all of the guided shells are available in world market are 155mm 
they are easy to deploy

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## fatman17

203 mm is obsolete


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## black-hawk_101

Sulman Badshah said:


> 203 mm is old school system ... they have more weight
> difficult to transport and their firing rate is very slow
> 
> all of the modern systems are 155 MM standards ... Should procure truck mounted 155 mm shoot and scoot capable ... these system can easily be transported and have internal magazine
> advantages of 155 mm over 203 mm
> their range is better and almost doubled than 203 mm
> their sustain rate of fire is higher than 203mm
> their accuracy and firing rate is better
> all of the guided shells are available in world market are 155mm
> they are easy to deploy


 But if its for free then get it. Good for urban areas to shoot on Taliban hide outs.

As USA is going for a new 155mm then PA should ask for older 155mm from US.


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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> But if its for free then get it. Good for urban areas to shoot on Taliban hide outs.
> 
> As USA is going for a new 155mm then PA should ask for older 155mm from US.



in US SP howitzer Paladin is worth inducting .. but US isn't replacing them 
while in Towed M198....M777 are best 

again they aren't going to replace them

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## fatman17

We are well stocked with artillery. We have formed 2 artillery divisions now. Surplus 155mm are available world wide


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> We are well stocked with artillery. We have formed 2 artillery divisions now. Surplus 155mm are available world wide


was visiting Sipri ... and saw that Panter 155mm will be starting to be inducted in 2017


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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> was visiting Sipri ... and saw that Panter 155mm will be starting to be inducted in 2017


Any thing about SH-1??


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## alimobin memon

I believe Air support is best support but if its not their Artillery is way better then tanks cripple and disperse enemy formations and as important as can be psychologically terrify them. A self propelled artillery is the only system that should be kept in mind and mrls and in least the towed. Pakistan should start inducting more and more mrls and Self propelled artillery's whether obsolete or new they are always better then towed. Towed are difficult to deploy and if caught in counter barrage are extremely difficult to flee.


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## Sulman Badshah

Path-Finder said:


> Any thing about SH-1??


Sipri data states that 36 SH1 have been delivered so far ... 

But A pictorial evidence of service in PA is yet to seen ... 
PA haven't release pictures publicly i guess

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## Sulman Badshah

alimobin memon said:


> I believe Air support is best support but if its not their Artillery is way better then tanks cripple and disperse enemy formations and as important as can be psychologically terrify them. A self propelled artillery is the only system that should be kept in mind and mrls and in least the towed. Pakistan should start inducting more and more mrls and Self propelled artillery's whether obsolete or new they are always better then towed. Towed are difficult to deploy and if caught in counter barrage are extremely difficult to flee.



Many majors battle will be held in Kashmir and GB fronts ... SP arty there is no or little use ... PA should also focus on modern towed howitzers specially light weight that can be carry with Helicopter and can be deployed in harsh mountainous peaks .... 

as india is going for M777 , the best bet for pakistan against it is Chinese light weight 155mm

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## nomi007

*300mm A-100/PHL rockets*

Shown here is a comparison of size between a 120km range 300mm rocket, compared to lighter 122mm rockets and portable 107mm rockets.

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## Zarvan

According to @DESERT FIGHTER Pakistan is testing Serbian SP Artillery Nora

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## DESERT FIGHTER

79 more M109s have landed.. Confirmation!

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## mingle

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 79 more M109s have landed.. Confirmation!


It's free from chachu yank ?but it's good now pak picking momentum


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## Sulman Badshah

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 79 more M109s have landed.. Confirmation!


which version's ???


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 79 more M109s have landed.. Confirmation!


M109 ? pictures


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> M109 ? pictures



@kaonalpha


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## kaonalpha

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @kaonalpha


All dispatched 4 remaining for repair at karachi

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## Sulman Badshah

kaonalpha said:


> All dispatched 4 remaining for repair at karachi


they are delivered for PA .. or they were just here for repairs


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## kaonalpha

Sulman Badshah said:


> they are delivered for PA .. or they were just here for repairs



No we paid for them

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## mingle

kaonalpha said:


> No we paid for them


Any chance to get UK and Canadian equipment from afghan leftover .?


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## Sulman Badshah

kaonalpha said:


> No we paid for them


which version they are A5 or A6


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## kaonalpha

mingle said:


> Any chance to get UK and Canadian equipment from afghan leftover .?




DO I LOOK LIKE A QMG to you that I know everything. No I don't. 


Sulman Badshah said:


> which version they are A5 or A6


70 M 109-A5 and 5 M 109-A6

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## Sulman Badshah

kaonalpha said:


> DO I LOOK LIKE A QMG to you that I know everything. No I don't.
> 
> 70 M 109-A5 and 5 M 109-A6


thanks for your time brother .... it will really boost the army capabilities


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## Thorough Pro

I think either he is mentally retarded or a super troll. Even a monkey would have learned to post some logic had he spent as much time as this poster



AsifIjaz said:


> lolz.... all over Pakistan... nishan thanks for the few minutes of laughter. much appreciate it

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## mingle

kaonalpha said:


> DO I LOOK LIKE A QMG to you that I know everything. No I don't.
> 
> 70 M 109-A5 and 5 M 109-A6


On this forum UR our QMG


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## Super Falcon

What other wheeled artilery we have


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## fatman17

Can we get some verification please.


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## Tacticool

kaonalpha said:


> 70 M 109-A5 and 5 M 109-A6


I thinks these are first A6s we have received.........


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## fatman17

M109A6 is the Paladin. Are we sure we have this?

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> M109A6 is the Paladin. Are we sure we have this?


Great beast we need more Artillery


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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 79 more M109s have landed.. Confirmation!


Now Pakistan has a huge and deadly inventar of SPA ca. 400 ? compared to the Indians we are leading in this warfare !



fatman17 said:


> M109A6 is the Paladin. Are we sure we have this?



We have the A5 which is also modern and deadly ! We have now ca. 400 SPA

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## انگریز

Base bleed artillery shell being used by PA

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## Sulman Badshah

General Raheel get briefed on South african G series howitzers

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## fatman17

Type 66 152mm towed howitzer. Looks awesome


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## Super Falcon

Best artillery in the world

Hope pak buy them they are wheeled most of our artileery is tracked


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Type 66 152mm towed howitzer. Looks awesome



Can be used as a tank buster just like the Germans did with their 88 mm in ww2.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Can be used as a tank buster just like the Germans did with their 88 mm in ww2.


Sir any new Artillery coming ? @Icarus @kaonalpha


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Can be used as a tank buster just like the Germans did with their 88 mm in ww2.


but nowadays tanks are far more agile than ww2 scnerio

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## kaonalpha

Not that I know of any. But I hope that we have some actual brains at HIT . Who can develop a gps guided semi-automatic artillery gun including synchronisation with ariel drone for better tagging high profile targets. 




Zarvan said:


> Sir any new Artillery coming ? @Icarus @kaonalpha

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## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> Sir any new Artillery coming ? @Icarus @kaonalpha



Bhai Arty kay maamlat kayliye @Xeric ya @Oscar say rujuu karain! I have very little understanding of artillery other than the fact that they are large guns that go boom and make the enemy go bye bye.

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> Bhai Arty kay maamlat kayliye @Xeric ya @Oscar say rujuu karain! I have very little understanding of artillery other than the fact that they are large guns that go boom and make the enemy go bye bye.



Artillery is the Queen of the Army - Usss ka nahin pataaa ?  

Sethi Sahib, tanks ka aap ko nahin pataaa, jahaaz ka aap nahin janteiii, bandook seh aaap ko durr lagtaa hai - Fauj mein kiya papaaar bailneiii gaiii thaiii aaap ?


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## araz

Jibran Ahmad.
I have reported your post for irrelevance and being off topic. Please refrain from posting irrelevant topics and post in the relevant section or Qand A section. 
Araz


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## Icarus

Armstrong said:


> Artillery is the Queen of the Army - Usss ka nahin pataaa ?



That's infantry.

*Queen of Battle

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## Super Falcon

Hope pak buy them they are wheeled most of our artileery is tracked


kaonalpha said:


> Not that I know of any. But I hope that we have some actual brains at HIT . Who can develop a gps guided semi-automatic artillery gun including synchronisation with ariel drone for better tagging high profile targets.



Hope they hire u im not joking u were right on nuckle dear i agree with today war is all about hitting enemy precisly where it hurts if u have weapons like them u won half a war before going to war


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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> That's infantry.
> 
> *Queen of Battle



Sethi Sahib your replies are so serious that sometimes I dunno if you're talking to a brother or the Havaldar Major under you !

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## fatman17

PLZ04/05 155mm SP Howitzer capable of firing guided projectile 100 KM.

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## 21 Dec 2012

fatman17 said:


> guided projectile 100 KM.


Are you joking?


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## fatman17

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Are you joking?



No sir I don't joke

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## 21 Dec 2012

fatman17 said:


> No sir I don't joke


Is there any reputable source for this 100 km range.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> M109A6 is the Paladin. Are we sure we have this?


Have a few pics in my cell... Will post later.. Apart from these a few ex Kuwaiti PLZ's were also delivered (in bad condition)... Courtesy : Kaonaplha

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## fatman17

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Is there any reputable source for this 100 km range.



The Chinese

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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have a few pics in my cell... Will post later.. Apart from these a few ex Kuwaiti PLZ's were also delivered (in bad condition)... Courtesy : Kaonaplha



Your source is iffy at best


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## 21 Dec 2012

fatman17 said:


> The Chinese


Your source is iffy at best


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## fatman17

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Your source is iffy at best



China Defense Blog


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## fatman17

One of the best Chinese blogs. Also try to be more innovative

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## fatman17

And don't get into a pissing match with me.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> Your source is iffy at best


You mean pics of the guns at a Pak Army Ordinance workshop ?


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## 21 Dec 2012

fatman17 said:


> One of the best Chinese blogs. Also try to be more innovative


Sure. 


fatman17 said:


> And don't get into a pissing match with me.


Try to be a little less sensitive.


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## fatman17

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Sure.
> 
> Try to be a little less sensitive.



Try to be a bit respectful.

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## araz

21 Dec 2012 said:


> A blog?
> Lets ask the Chinese about it.
> @Deino


@21 December 2012.
Sir fatman17 is a senior and respected poster on this forum. You need to open your ears widely and listen clearly. We are not happy when you get into an argument for the heck of it with a senior and respected poster. This is not acceptable and any further infringement will result in penalization.
Araz

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## 21 Dec 2012

araz said:


> @21 December 2012.
> Sir fatman17 is a senior and respected poster on this forum. You need to open your ears widely and listen clearly. We are not happy when you get into an argument for the heck of it with a senior and respected poster. This is not acceptable and any further infringement will result in penalization.
> Araz


I didn't start any argument. I gave a cheeky reply but only in response to a response to a similarly facetious reply by Sir fatman


fatman17 said:


> The Chinese


No need to make a big deal about it.

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## araz

21 Dec 2012 said:


> I didn't start any argument. I gave a cheeky reply but only in response to a response to a similarly facetious reply by Sir fatman
> 
> No need to make a big deal about it.


OK fine lets just cool down and move on.


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## MastanKhan

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Your source is iffy at best



So---instead of blabbering why don't you contradict the source and state what it is----. I mean to say that does one want to stay as an idiot forever or would one like to research the answer before putting the one liner----.

Here is a paste and copy from and older wiki :---

" -05 / Type 05[edit]
Self-propelled howitzer with a 52 caliber barrel, 800 hp diesel engine & gross weight of 35 tonnes.[4] It is deployed only with the People's Liberation Army.[1] The PLZ-05 can fire the WS-35 shell, a 40 lb (18 kg) guided munition with accuracy of 40 m (130 ft) and a max range reported to be 100 km (62 mi). It is guided using Beidou Navigation Satellite System, the Chinese version of global positioning system, and inertial guidance.[5] "

PLZ-05 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## nomi007

near my village

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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


> near my village



Spotted Panter 155mm.

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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> near my village


Tilla range jehlum ???



Path-Finder said:


> Spotted Panter 155mm.


on third number near M109 ?

Panter is four wheeled instead of two

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## nomi007

Sulman Badshah said:


> Tilla range jehlum ???
> 
> 
> on third number near M109 ?


yp


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## Super Falcon

Hope new artillery like southafrican should be bought too

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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> Tilla range jehlum ???
> 
> 
> on third number near M109 ?
> 
> Panter is four wheeled instead of two



Actually it may not be. it might be M198 Howitzer!


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## fatman17

Path-Finder said:


> Spotted Panter 155mm.



Upto 40 panters are in service.

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> near my village


There is no Panter in the picture

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Upto 40 panters are in service.


no 60 of them

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## Neutron

How many units of 155mm calibre ? Are we going to replace them with any calibre or going to raise new unit?


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> no 60 of them
> 
> View attachment 243973


60 are those which Turkey delivered to us we also produced few on our own


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> 60 are those which Turkey delivered to us we also produced few on our own


turkey delivered us 12 of them .. we produced rest of them

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## Neutron

SP guns are better, why we are not replacing our all medium guns with SP?


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Happy Independence day to all fellow countrymen.
Today there is an advertisement by HIT in Dawn. There is a mention of SP Gun in that.
Does anyone have info about it, which SP gun is that?

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## Sulman Badshah

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Happy Independence day to all fellow countrymen.
> Today there is an advertisement by HIT in Dawn. There is a mention of SP Gun in that.
> Does anyone have info about it, which SP gun is that?



M109 .. HIT can assmble them 

Our own project of 155mm SP is under development since 2002 and will be revealed in 2020


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## Tipu7

Sulman Badshah said:


> M109 .. HIT can assmble them
> 
> Our own project of 155mm SP is under development since 2002 and will be revealed in 2020


Can you provide info about that gun?
Basic info.....?


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## Sulman Badshah

Tipu7 said:


> Basic info.....?


don't have one .. the only announcement was made in 2002 IDEAS .. it will be SP 155mm howitzer


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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> M109 .. HIT can assmble them
> 
> Our own project of 155mm SP is under development since 2002 and will be revealed in 2020



 18 years? my goodness a child born in 2002 will be legaly an adult in 2020.


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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> M109 .. HIT can assmble them
> 
> Our own project of 155mm SP is under development since 2002 and will be revealed in 2020



Upgrade not assemble


----------



## fatman17

PLA's first-rate artillery force boasts high accuracy

China Daily, August 17, 2015

A new type of long-range multiple rocket launcher is used during training by a rocket artillery battalion under the People's Liberation Army Ji'nan Military Command. [Photo / China Daily]

Many of those who have heard about the prowess of the People's Liberation Army's rocket artillery force are still amazed when they visit Major Wang Peicheng's battalion and learn about its capabilities.

"The power of each of my battalion's rocket launchers is equal to that of a whole battalion equipped with traditional artillery guns," said Wang, political supervisor at one of the long-range rocket artillery battalions under the PLA Ji'nan Military Command.

"To be specific, each rocket can cover and destroy a vast area equivalent to several football fields, while each launcher can fire more than 10 rockets within several minutes.

"Using some simple calculations, you can know how deadly this weapon could be in actual combat," Wang said.

"Moreover, as the result of stringent training, we now boast accuracy rates that are almost as high as those of surface-to-surface missiles. All these mean no enemy can survive our strike."

Wang made the remarks during a rare open house for domestic journalists earlier this month. Reporters were invited to visit the unit, which is regarded by the military as a top rocket artillery battalion.

Major Xuan Jidong, head of the training section at the brigade and former commander of the battalion, said the battalion will continue to improve its combat capability and is always ready to "inflict a metal storm" on the enemy.

The battalion's long-range multiple rocket launcher made its public debut during the Tian'anmen Square military parade in 2009. It was introduced as an effective complement to the PLA's surface-to-surface strike arsenal, composed of tactical missiles and traditional artillery guns.

The rocket launcher has a maximum firing range of 150 km, according to battalion commanders. In comparison, Russia's BM-30 Smerch has a maximum range of 90 km and the United States' M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System has a top range of about 70 km.

China began to deploy multiple rocket launchers in the PLA ground force in the early 1950s. It has used four types of such weapons since.

Compared with its predecessors, the new rocket launcher has a higher automation level, better accuracy, larger range and is very convenient to operate and maintain, Xinhua News Agency previously reported.

Senior Colonel Yang Guobin, commander of the brigade, said: "Compared with multiple rocket launchers used by foreign military forces, ours is stronger in terms of automation, computerization and firepower. It is fair to say that this weapon is the PLA ground force's most powerful tactical deterrent."

When the battalion replaced its traditional artillery guns with the multiple rocket launchers in 2009, the new weapon seemed to be so sophisticated that many gunners at the battalion had to drop all they knew about conventional artillery guns and started to learn how to operate the launchers almost from scratch.

Since the battalion received the advanced weapon, it has taken part in a series of exercises, Yang said.

All of the nearly 100 rockets the battalion launched in drills over the past several years hit their targets, which means that the battalion has achieved top accuracy rates, he said.

To fit the advanced weapon to various combat scenarios, such as those in coastal regions, plateaus and mountainous areas, artillerists in the battalion have prepared 12 combat deployment plans as well as several launch front layouts, the senior colonel said.

"Battalion commanders are aware that future combat operations require their weapons to be used in collaboration with the air force's aircraft and the navy's vessels, so they have carried out a lot of research on joint operations," Yang said. "They are still continuing to explore how to better integrate their weapons in these operations."

Officers and soldiers at the battalion spend more than five months each year performing field training and exercises, Wang said.

Follow China.org.cn on Twitter and Facebook to join the conversation.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> don't have one .. the only announcement was made in 2002 IDEAS .. it will be SP 155mm howitzer


Revealed in 2020 Are you serious our SP project doesn't exist any more we got lot more M-109 and SH-1 and others and we are testing others also. So no need of spending money on our own.


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Revealed in 2020 Are you serious our SP project doesn't exist any more we got lot more M-109 and SH-1 and others and we are testing others also. So no need of spending money on our own.


there is a speculation related 2020.. nothing confirmed 

Abondance of the project is also not confirmed


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## Signalian

In towed type, the pick of the inventory is :
M198
Panter
Type-59-1

Lots of obsolete equipment and low calibre guns needs to be replaced of caliber 105mm.122mm....almost 1500 guns.
Some 155mm are also obsolete..M-114,M-115,M-59, M-56.


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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> In towed type, the pick of the inventory is :
> M198
> Panter
> Type-59-1
> 
> Lots of obsolete equipment and low calibre guns needs to be replaced of caliber 105mm.122mm....almost 1500 guns.
> Some 155mm are also obsolete..M-114,M-115,M-59, M-56.



105s are effective v militants


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> 105s are effective v militants



Cant say about effectiveness but there can be a few reasons why 105mm is used against militants.

FC is given only 105mm pieces to use and FC is the first in combat usually. 105mm is cheaper to operate, ammo cheaper to produce. Negligent advantage but doesnt damage important single lane roads due to lighter weight than 155/203mm. Can be taken to far flung areas and difficult terrain easily than heavier guns towed by better offroad/lighter trucks. The 105mm's used by PA have ranges near about 10km or so and there is no threat of counter battery fire. Better to use barrel life of 105mm than expensive calibres. Stocks of 105mm stored since decades not only makes space for newer 155mm storage but also put to good use. More ammo can be carried in a pallet for 105mm compared to larger calibres.

Mainly it has a logistical advantage. Larger caliber carries more punch.


----------



## Neutron

Manticore said:


> 2009
> *Pakistan Ordnance Factories and French Company signs MOU on rocket technology*
> 
> Pakistan Ordnance Factories and a French company signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on upgrading the capabilities of 122 mm rockets used by the Pakistani armed forces on the sidelines of the Defence Systems and Equipment International Exhibition which opened in East London Tuesday.
> 
> The MOU was signed on behalf of POF by its chairman Lt.General Shujaat Zamir Dar and by David Quancard, president, Roxel company, which is a leading French company dealing in rocket technology. Federal Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi was also present on the occasion.
> 
> *The contract when materialised will help Pakistan armed forces to enhance the firing range of the present stock of 122 mm rockets in its arsenal from its current range of 20 kilometres to 40 km and beyond.*
> 
> The French company chief sales executive Francis Rodriguez speaking to the media said the present Pakistani rockets are equipped with the Russian technology and are quite outdated and once actual agreement is signed with his company, the induction of new technology will not only increase the range but make the weapon more lethal and effective.
> 
> He said POF is manufacturing defence equipment of international standard and his company trust the Pakistan technology and is happy to assist POF in bringning further new advancements.
> 
> Rodriguez said since the induction of a democratic government in Pakistan, its relations with France has deepened and both President Asif Ali Zardari and Nicholas Sarkozy are keen to see that these are further consolidated in all fields particularly in the defence sector. France is already a major defence supplier to Pakistan including Mirage warplanes and submarines and other equipment for its forces.
> 
> 
> ----
> http://i30.tinypic.com/nv60km.jpg



Failed to enhance range
No update anymore???


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## Sulman Badshah

Neutron said:


> Failed to enhance range
> No update anymore???



GIDS have refurbished these rockets to 45 km range ...

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## Neutron

Sulman Badshah said:


> GIDS have refurbished these rockets to 45 km range ...



GIDS mean????
What about old stock issued to units??


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## Sulman Badshah

Neutron said:


> GIDS mean????
> What about old stock issued to units??


Global integrated defence systems 

follow the link 
:: GIDS - REFURBISHMENT-RANGE-ENHANCEMENT-OF-122MM-MBRL-AMMUNITION ::

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## alimobin memon

Artillery System is one of the most Important and somewhat strategic weapon system for any country whether be a defense or an offense. Pakistan has long inventory of different types of Artillery system but most of these are towed. Towed is also a good means of artillery but they are slow and vulnerable. 
At the other hand is MRLS which is one of the most devastated weapon in big area of a location that fires salvo of rockets towards its targets. Pakistan has around 130 of them including A100, KRL and azar. Pakistan should procure more of these and according to my knowledge they cannot cost more than any medium tank except a100 which is around 11 million USD according to this: NationsDawnOfAnEra 
Next is SPA Pakistan has good number of SPA especially M109's. While they project a greater firepower Pakistan must and need to increase their number. 

My point is that Artillery systems are must if we cant buy many planes for ground attack missions we can buy long range artillery systems with around that have 100km range in MRLS type and 30 - 45 km in SPA or towed type these can be used in case of cold start and any other attacks that could happen from border. if Pak can induct them in numbers it can be hurdle for india to penetrate the artillery shield. which ofcourse be guided by sams and infantry too.

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## fatman17

Army is investing heavily in its artillery assets. It has 2 artillery divisions now and expect a 3rd in the pipeline.

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## ghazi52

Nice development...............


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## Hell hound

fatman17 said:


> Army is investing heavily in its artillery assets. It has 2 artillery divisions now and expect a 3rd in the pipeline.


sir i am still little confused about panter .have we already inducted 72 of these and now waiting for new lighter version? or we have yet to induct panter system in either its current or possible future lighter version form.


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## fatman17

Hell hound said:


> sir i am still little confused about panter .have we already inducted 72 of these and now waiting for new lighter version? or we have yet to induct panter system in either its current or possible future lighter version form.



Lots of confusion here. 
12 were delivered by Turkey for evaluation some years ago. Then SIPRI reported that a total of 40 have been delivered including the 12 aforementioned, but we have never seen pictures of the panter in army livery or action. Atleast l haven't.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Lots of confusion here.
> 12 were delivered by Turkey for evaluation some years ago. Then SIPRI reported that a total of 40 have been delivered including the 12 aforementioned, but we have never seen pictures of the panter in army livery or action. Atleast l haven't.


I heard that Pakistan and Turkey are developing Self Propelled version of Panter. Do you have any news about it ?


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> I heard that Pakistan and Turkey are developing Self Propelled version of Panter. Do you have any news about it ?



Currently lots of discussion. nothing finalised.

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## HRK

alimobin memon said:


> My point is that Artillery systems are must if we cant buy many planes for ground attack missions we can buy long range artillery systems with around that have 100km range in MRLS type



Pakistan is producing A-100 MLRS ....

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## Quwa

The Pakistan Army ought to consider lightweight howitzers for use in mountainous areas. India is planning to acquire and deploy the M777, but there aren't many other 155mm caliber howitzers. The Army could consider teaming up with South Africa's Denel to develop a 155mm version of the G7. Imagine the capability to easily move this kind of firepower up hills or even by air using CN-235 or even a heavy-lift helicopter (one day, hopefully).

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## Gen Padmanabhan

Quwa said:


> The Pakistan Army ought to consider lightweight howitzers for use in mountainous areas. India is planning to acquire and deploy the M777, but there aren't many other 155mm caliber howitzers. The Army could consider teaming up with South Africa's Denel to develop a 155mm version of the G7. Imagine the capability to easily move this kind of firepower up hills or even by air using CN-235 or even a heavy-lift helicopter (one day, hopefully).


But that M777 is for Mountain Divisions & new Mountain Corp.


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## Blue Marlin

how 


Quwa said:


> The Pakistan Army ought to consider lightweight howitzers for use in mountainous areas. India is planning to acquire and deploy the M777, but there aren't many other 155mm caliber howitzers. The Army could consider teaming up with South Africa's Denel to develop a 155mm version of the G7. Imagine the capability to easily move this kind of firepower up hills or even by air using CN-235 or even a heavy-lift helicopter (one day, hopefully).


about the slwh Pegasus?

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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> how
> 
> about the slwh Pegasus?


I don't think Singapore would sell them to Pakistan, India has a lot of credible hooks in Asia Pacific.


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> I don't think Singapore would sell them to Pakistan, India has a lot of credible hooks in Asia Pacific.


if you dont try you dont get. besides a little warning/threat. if you refuse to sell we will make sure nobody buys them from you. india has money but you have have influence (in the name of religion) . but then again it is Singapore and it is a hypocritical to the bone. they turned gwadar into a sh*t hole on purpose so that it cant be used as a gateway to central Asia.

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## Hell hound

Quwa said:


> I don't think Singapore would sell them to Pakistan, India has a lot of credible hooks in Asia Pacific.


do we really need light howitzers we already have M198 its not as light as M777 but still is a great system.


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## Quwa

Hell hound said:


> do we really need light howitzers we already have M198 its not as light as M777 but still is a great system.


That is what a new generation towed howitzer would replace, albeit gradually. The lighter weight helps with mobility, which helps in terms of tactical flexibility (especially in mountainous regions) and general deployment. STOL and VSTOL transports as well as heavy-lift helicopters could potentially move a new light howitzer around.

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## Hell hound

Quwa said:


> That is what a new generation towed howitzer would replace, albeit gradually. The lighter weight helps with mobility, which helps in terms of tactical flexibility (especially in mountainous regions) and general deployment. STOL and VSTOL transports as well as heavy-lift helicopters could potentially move a new light howitzer around.


don't you think there are lot more obsolete Chinese artillery systems which need replacing first M198 is relatively new system.
apart from that we don't have heavy helis neither do we have plans to buy them in near future so M777 type light howitzer don't bring much to the table.because its main advantage is air lift which we can't use

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## Quwa

Hell hound said:


> don't you think there are lot more obsolete Chinese artillery systems which need replacing first M198 is relatively new system.
> apart from that we don't have heavy helis neither do we have plans to buy them in near future so M777 type light howitzer don't bring much to the table.because its main advantage is air lift which we can't use


The PAF does have CN-235s, and it might resume buying them once money is available, and the Army has had its eye on CH-47 Chinook a few times in the last few years. But I agree, the obsolete Chinese systems do need replacing. Wouldn't it be a good idea to phase out the Chinese field howitzers with a new-generation light howitzer? It'd a way to mainstream 155mm shells as well as standardize different logistics and maintenance channels.

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## Hell hound

Quwa said:


> The PAF does have CN-235s, and it might resume buying them once money is available, and the Army has had its eye on CH-47 Chinook a few times in the last few years. But I agree, the obsolete Chinese systems do need replacing. Wouldn't it be a good idea to phase out the Chinese field howitzers with a new-generation light howitzer? It'd a way to mainstream 155mm shells as well as standardize different logistics and maintenance channels.


that will be great all the above mentioned points will make great case in cost benefit analysis but how many types of light howitzer are there in market except M777.


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## Quwa

Hell hound said:


> that will be great all the above mentioned points will make great case in cost benefit analysis but how many types of light howitzer are there in market except M777.


There's the Pegasus by Singapore. Otherwise, there are several companies capable of producing a lightweight howitzer, such as the South African Denel Land Systems. Although the G7 is a 105mm gun, the South African government had the company do some development work on a modern lightweight system. Pakistan could work with them to get a Pegasus/M777-like system.

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## Hell hound

Quwa said:


> There's the Pegasus by Singapore. Otherwise, there are several companies capable of producing a lightweight howitzer, such as the South African Denel Land Systems. Although the G7 is a 105mm gun, the South African government had the company do some development work on a modern lightweight system. Pakistan could work with them to get a Pegasus/M777-like system.


so this means we don't have much options and might have to do joint venture with someone.

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## Quwa

Hell hound said:


> so this means we don't have much options and might have to do joint venture with someone.


Actually, there is a Chinese option, the NORINCO AH-4.

China presents its AH4 155mm lightweight towed howitzer as counterpart of American M777 10411153 | Defense Security 2015 News Official Online Show Daily Coverage Report | Defence security military exhibition 2015

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## madmusti




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## Hell hound

Quwa said:


> Actually, there is a Chinese option, the NORINCO AH-4.
> 
> China presents its AH4 155mm lightweight towed howitzer as counterpart of American M777 10411153 | Defense Security 2015 News Official Online Show Daily Coverage Report | Defence security military exhibition 2015


now thats a weapon hope it is as reliable,durable and accurate as its counterparts.


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## madmusti




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## Path-Finder

I like the sound of *SLWH Pegasus* we do need a light 155mm Howitzer for mountain troops on both eastern and western border.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> Lots of confusion here.
> 12 were delivered by Turkey for evaluation some years ago. Then SIPRI reported that a total of 40 have been delivered including the 12 aforementioned, but we have never seen pictures of the panter in army livery or action. Atleast l haven't.



I have .. They raised new units with those... Infact k was there when the first guns came to Arty School Nowshehra.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> I like the sound of *SLWH Pegasus* we do need a light 155mm Howitzer for mountain troops on both eastern and western border.


Useless in siachin.. For western border even the Chinese built D30 series are enough..

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hell hound said:


> now thats a weapon hope it is as reliable,durable and accurate as its counterparts.



Arty guns don't need any war to prove themselves ... All you gotta do is test them .. And decide on the basis of the result..

Chinese are making some excellent arty guns .. From PLZ-45 SPGs,SH-1 SPGs down to 105mm lightly arty guns .. Not to forget long range MLRS.

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## Desertfalcon

For a lightweight 155mm piece, it's hard to beat the M777 howitzer. 

M777 howitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hell hound

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Arty guns don't need any war to prove themselves ... All you gotta do is test them .. And decide on the basis of the result..
> 
> Chinese are making some excellent arty guns .. From PLZ-45 SPGs,SH-1 SPGs down to 105mm lightly arty guns .. Not to forget long range MLRS.


do we any use of 155mm ultra light howitzer of any origin in any terrain.most our boarder is plane area so sp arty is much better then towed one in those areas.but what about mountainous region do we really need 155mm light system there.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I have .. They raised new units with those... Infact k was there when the first guns came to Arty School Nowshehra.


how many do we have and how was there performance.

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## Path-Finder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Useless in siachin.. For western border even the Chinese built D30 series are enough..



D30 as in 130mm? Man they are outdated and obsolete. PA announced in Kyani's tenure that all guns will be 155mm standardized. But yes D30 for western border is good choice


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## Penguin

Path-Finder said:


> D30 as in 130mm? Man they are outdated and obsolete. PA announced in Kyani's tenure that all guns will be 155mm standardized. But yes D30 for western border is good choice


D-30 is 122mm, IIRC.

Type 59-I, the Chinese version of the Russian M1954 (M-46) ordnance mated to the carriage of the Type 60 (copy of Russian D-74 122mm), is a 130mm gun in Pakiastan Army service. For 130mm ordnance, some options for upgrading to 155mm are available:

Norinco (China North Industries Corporation) developed this upgrade package where the original barrel of the Type 59 is replaced by the 155/45 mm ordnance of the PLL01/WA021m a Chinese copy of the Denel GC-45. (Army Guide

Soltam Systems Ltd, of Israel, now part of Elbit, also has an upgrade kit where the original barrel is replaced by a new model of 155/45mm (https://www.elbitsystems.com/elbitpr/files/Artillery.doc)

Similar upgrade was available from the Netherlands (from now defunct RDM Technology Army Guide and 

Yugoslavia (today Serb republic UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport

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## Zarvan

@fatman17 Will SH-1 SP Artillery be shown during this year parade ?


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> @fatman17 Will SH-1 SP Artillery be shown during this year parade ?



Have we inducted it? To me it's a big Q?


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Have we inducted it? To me it's a big Q?


Wait a minute !!! it was you who first gave this news and even said that most of them have arrived in Pakistan. So what changed your views now ?


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## Stimpy75

Sry typo


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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Arty guns don't need any war to prove themselves ... All you gotta do is test them .. And decide on the basis of the result..
> 
> Chinese are making some excellent arty guns .. From PLZ-45 SPGs,SH-1 SPGs down to 105mm lightly arty guns .. Not to forget long range MLRS.




I thought our 130mm inventory was upgraded to 155mm by China ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I just feel these artillery weapon is obsolete considering the availability of Helicopter gun ships and stealth cruise missiles

Mobility and rate of fire factor improvements is worth it but I just don't feel tanks and these artillery weapons impact much if you are facing an enemy that has ample Gunships

It would have been ideal had these artillery units were protected with locally produced SAM systems and then ample Anti Aircraft weapons


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## Inception-06

@DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17 

122 mm How D-30 A-Gun- incl Braking Sys- 36 -US$ 5.476 M

Sipri also reports that we have bought additional 122mm artillery guns may be because of their excellent mobility in the ongoing operations in the mountains. I think from the point of mobility the 122mm D-30 howitzer is the best gun in our inventory.

With its striking three-leg mounting, the D-30 can be rapidly traversed through 360 degrees and the low silhouette of the piece, its wide and rapid top-traverse and its shield, simple to handle and maintain,suitable for all conditions that howitzer is a excellent low price gun for the Pakistani mountain Troops.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The only way such Artillery units make an impact is if these area are protected by a SAM , made in Pakistan and network of radars that protect from Ariel threats so these ground units can maintain point attack and prevent progress of enemy units on grounds.

With out a proper SAM system to protect these Military units a column of 2-16 Helicopter gunships can disrupt the function of these units on ground

The raw guns / artillery are just too crude of weapon out of place and reminder of WW2 level weaponry











With out radars & Missile systems , the Artillery units are vulnerable

Artillery bombardment is only impactful , if it itself has ample protection from Air


Since Pakistan does not have Gunship helicopters 

Since Pakistan does not have proper locally build Radar & SAM system

In a real conflict the modern smart bombs would make short work of artillery units does not matter if its 100 units or 1000 Units as these would be sitting ducks on ground


Also mobility units also need improvement
While it may be questionable if we have ability to transport these over mountains or tight road areas but still we need some of these babies

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## Inception-06

Kargil war 1999: The best Idea was to build Artillery positions very near the rivers and on the little islands in the river (only a enough place for a artillery gun), so it was more difficult to locate the gun for the indians, would you expect 130mm artillery guns in the river ?






notice the water is surrounding the little island and the empty ammo boxes were used to build the shelters for the Guns, just brilliant !

@Quwa Sir wold you like to comment that Artillery position in this picture (its from the Kargil war)

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## Path-Finder

Ulla said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17
> 
> 122 mm How D-30 A-Gun- incl Braking Sys- 36 -US$ 5.476 M
> 
> Sipri also reports that we have bought additional 122mm artillery guns may be because of their excellent mobility in the ongoing operations in the mountains. I think from the point of mobility the 122mm D-30 howitzer is the best gun in our inventory.
> 
> With its striking three-leg mounting, the D-30 can be rapidly traversed through 360 degrees and the low silhouette of the piece, its wide and rapid top-traverse and its shield, simple to handle and maintain,suitable for all conditions that howitzer is a excellent low price gun for the Pakistani mountain Troops.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 297137


This if could be upgraded to a 155mm barrel with additional modern electronics would a bad *** gun but most likely not possible

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## Inception-06

Path-Finder said:


> This if could be upgraded to a 155mm barrel with additional modern electronics would a bad *** gun but most likely not possible




At siachen this gun suits perfect its a all weather gun, will fire his rounds also by minus 20C without heavy maintance, which is not case for the modern guns with more electronic equipment !

We can say that this howitzer is the AK-47 of the Artillery !


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Wait a minute !!! it was you who first gave this news and even said that most of them have arrived in Pakistan. So what changed your views now ?



Haven't seen any further news just like the panters.


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Haven't seen any further news just like the panters.


Well than we should wait for the parade we may get to see some new weapons

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> Have we inducted it? To me it's a big Q?



According to MODP Report yes.. 36 were delivered .. Total order 92 guns.



Ulla said:


> Kargil war 1999: The best Idea was to build Artillery positions very near the rivers and on the little islands in the river (only a enough place for a artillery gun), so it was more difficult to locate the gun for the indians, would you expect 130mm artillery guns in the river ?
> 
> View attachment 297288
> 
> 
> notice the water is surrounding the little island and the empty ammo boxes were used to build the shelters for the Guns, just brilliant !
> 
> @Quwa Sir wold you like to comment that Artillery position in this picture (its from the Kargil war)



Back than the indians didn't have fire locating radars... Today they probably do... All one has to do is let the ballistic computer do the calculations and direct arty barrage on the location (found by the arty locating radars)... That's why mobility is also important for arty... 

The shelter/cover on the gun (pic) is to camouflage it.

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## Inception-06

This Artillery gun were used extensively during the Kargil war:

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## Tipu7

fatman17 said:


> Haven't seen any further news just like the panters.


Can you confirm the presence of SH1 and Panter in Pakistan inventory?
How many units are here in Pakistan? And how many are in pipe line?
We are raising new Artillery Division so what new units we should expect? M109A5?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> Can you confirm the presence of SH1 and Panter in Pakistan inventory?
> How many units are here in Pakistan? And how many are in pipe line?
> We are raising new Artillery Division so what new units we should expect? M109A5?


You are becoming second zarvan 2.0D .. Instead of asking why don't you read previous posts?

MODP report stated production of panter guns.
SIPRI etc prove transfer of 48 A-100s,36 Sh-1s (order around 90-92 guns).



Tipu7 said:


> Can you confirm the presence of SH1 and Panter in Pakistan inventory?
> How many units are here in Pakistan? And how many are in pipe line?
> We are raising new Artillery Division so what new units we should expect? M109A5?


You are becoming second zarvan 2.0D .. Instead of asking why don't you read previous posts?

MODP report stated production of panter guns.
SIPRI etc prove transfer of 48 A-100s,36 Sh-1s (order around 90-92 guns).


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You are becoming second zarvan 2.0D .. Instead of asking why don't you read previous posts?
> 
> MODP report stated production of panter guns.
> SIPRI etc prove transfer of 48 A-100s,36 Sh-1s (order around 90-92 guns).
> 
> 
> You are becoming second zarvan 2.0D .. Instead of asking why don't you read previous posts?
> 
> MODP report stated production of panter guns.
> SIPRI etc prove transfer of 48 A-100s,36 Sh-1s (order around 90-92 guns).


Pakistan got A-100 with TOT. So How many we have produced in Pakistan. That's is not clear also of Panter


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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You are becoming second zarvan 2.0D .. Instead of asking why don't you read previous posts?
> 
> MODP report stated production of panter guns.
> SIPRI etc prove transfer of 48 A-100s,36 Sh-1s (order around 90-92 guns)


Zarvan is my friend on FB as well as in real life 
So many times I ask what I know Zarvan will ask, or what Zarvan ask me to ask

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Zarvan is my friend on FB as well as in real life
> So many times I ask what I know Zarvan will ask, or what Zarvan ask me to ask


The number of Panter and A-100 are those which are came from Turkey and China but How many we produced in Pakistan that is real question and we need at least 3 more types of MRL. Look at China they have at least 20 different Kinds of MRLS


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## Tipu7

Chinese military doctrine is different, they face different sort of threats. 
They got huge army with strong budget. They can do that, we can't 

We got AZRA MLRS which is clone of Bm21
We got A100E which is one of the best MLRS in World...... out range all sort of artillery India got......

We should keep focus on these two systems and develop tgermobaric ordinance too for these MLRS.
Like Pinaka or TOS1



Zarvan said:


> The number of Panter and A-100 are those which are came from Turkey and China but How many we produced in Pakistan that is real question and we need at least 3 more types of MRL. Look at China they have at least 20 different Kinds of MRLS


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> We should keep focus on these two systems and develop tgermobaric ordinance too for these MLRS.
> Like Pinaka or TOS1


What are these things ?


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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> Zarvan is my friend on FB as well as in real life
> So many times I ask what I know Zarvan will ask, or what Zarvan ask me to ask



Now are now on my watch list ... 

I suspect your account is the duplicate account of Zarvan .... 

.........

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## Tipu7

Is this good thing or bad thing?
To be on your watch list?


HRK said:


> Now are now on my watch list ...
> 
> I suspect your account is the duplicate account of Zarvan ....
> 
> .........


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## Inception-06

Tipu7 said:


> Is this good thing or bad thing?
> To be on your watch list?



what happen to Zarvan ?


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## Zarvan

Ulla said:


> what happen to Zarvan ?


I am here nothing happened to me

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## Tipu7

M110 203mm & M109 155mm SPA








KRL 155mm MLRS








Ulla said:


> SH-1 is in service with Pakistan Army, I will post latter pictures


Still waiting .........................

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> M110 203mm & M109 155mm SPA
> 
> View attachment 313885
> 
> 
> 
> KRL 155mm MLRS
> 
> View attachment 313886
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting .........................



36 delivered accordance to MODP report 14-15.

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## Penguin

Ulla said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17
> 
> 122 mm How D-30 A-Gun- incl Braking Sys- 36 -US$ 5.476 M
> 
> Sipri also reports that we have bought additional 122mm artillery guns may be because of their excellent mobility in the ongoing operations in the mountains. I think from the point of mobility the 122mm D-30 howitzer is the best gun in our inventory.
> 
> With its striking three-leg mounting, the D-30 can be rapidly traversed through 360 degrees and the low silhouette of the piece, its wide and rapid top-traverse and its shield, simple to handle and maintain,suitable for all conditions that howitzer is a excellent low price gun for the Pakistani mountain Troops.



See https://defence.pk/threads/bosnian-defense-industry.388269/#post-7439510 for a 100mm direct fire version, from Bosnia (could possibly be made to work with Russian 9K116 Kastet CL-ATGW system. Using the 9M117M1 _Arkan_ Tandem HEAT missile (developed from 9M117 Bastion) with 6,000 m range, average armour penetration is 750 mm RHAe after ERA.






D-30 design ows much to the German 10,5 cm leFH 43 (Modell Skoda > Czech)










And similar heavy guns (15cm sFH43)

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## ConcealCarry

How did you come up with that need? Is that official PA stance or your analysis? if your analysis what are your assumptions and crieteria for coming up with three more types? And exactly what are those three types? what specific role would they fill? Please share your valueable knowledge with us 



Zarvan said:


> The number of Panter and A-100 are those which are came from Turkey and China but How many we produced in Pakistan that is real question and *we need at least 3 more types of MRL*. Look at China they have at least 20 different Kinds of MRLS

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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 36 delivered accordance to MODP report 14-15.


Yr I know it.
But I want pic of Sh1 & Panter for "dil ki tasali"
In our arsenal ......



ConcealCarry said:


> How did you come up with that need? Is that official PA stance or your analysis? if your analysis what are your assumptions and crieteria for coming up with three more types? And exactly what are those three types? what specific role would they fill? Please share your valueable knowledge with us


He want one 122mm MLRS, one 270mm MLRS and one multiple ballistic launch system similar to M270


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## ConcealCarry

Says it all



Tipu7 said:


> Yr I know it.
> But I want pic of Sh1 & Panter for "dil ki tasali"
> In our arsenal ......
> 
> 
> *He want* one 122mm MLRS, one 270mm MLRS and one multiple ballistic launch system similar to M270


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## Zarvan

ConcealCarry said:


> Says it all


Well those beasts are needed to stop India's Armor Brigades. This tactical nuclear thing is nothing but totally suicidal move. We need massive firepower which can be provided through the MRLs @Tipu7 mentioned


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## Tipu7

Yara
You need to understand that non nuclear tactical missile artillery system do not have enough punch to destroy an armored brigade/division invasion.

In armored invasion in desert & plains, tanks are distinct apart. They move in formation of two or four tanks not in bulk. And MLRS is good against bulk targets or fixed targets. Since you have to deploy them and they need very long time for reload compared to self propelled artillery.

If you want a tactical multiple ballistic missile system of non nuclear origin then what type of war head it will carry? High explosive.

And in invasion where tanks are rolling towards you at high speed and are distinct apart from each other, HE missile will be simply under power. You will need precise hitting, one missile per tank, and if two enemy armored regiments are there (120+ Tanks) then you can simply calculate how many missiles & launchers you will need to sustain such heavy damage that they literally stop an invasion. 

Hence instead of making an expensive unit, which destroy one tank per BALLISTIC missile you have a unit which can knock out them in large numbers in one shot.

M270 type missile system simply don't have enough capability and punch to stop a full armored + mechanized invasion......
Hence using Nuclear Radiation warhead come to picture......
And let me tell you one thing more, NASR can also carry high explosive missiles...... but in the presence of A100, they are not needed ...

Got the point?


Zarvan said:


> Well those beasts are needed to stop India's Armor Brigades. This tactical nuclear thing is nothing but totally suicidal move. We need massive firepower which can be provided through the MRLs @Tipu7 mentioned

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Yara
> You need to understand that non nuclear tactical missile artillery system do not have enough punch to destroy an armored brigade/division invasion.
> 
> In armored invasion in desert & plains, tanks are distinct apart. They move in formation of two or four tanks not in bulk. And MLRS is good against bulk targets or fixed targets. Since you have to deploy them and they need very long time for reload compared to self propelled artillery.
> 
> If you want a tactical multiple ballistic missile system of non nuclear origin then what type of war head it will carry? High explosive.
> 
> And in invasion where tanks are rolling towards you at high speed and are distinct apart from each other, HE missile will be simply under power. You will need precise hitting, one missile per tank, and if two enemy armored regiments are there (120+ Tanks) then you can simply calculate how many missiles & launchers you will need to sustain such heavy damage that they literally stop an invasion.
> 
> Hence instead of making an expensive unit, which destroy one tank per BALLISTIC missile you have a unit which can knock out them in large numbers in one shot.
> 
> M270 type missile system simply don't have enough capability and punch to stop a full armored + mechanized invasion......
> Hence using Nuclear Radiation warhead come to picture......
> And let me tell you one thing more, NASR can also carry high explosive missiles...... but in the presence of A100, they are not needed ...
> 
> Got the point?


Too add punch you need to develop a warhead which is not nuclear but still almost equally destructive.


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## Tipu7

Which war head?
Name it......
High explosive? Thermobaric? 



Zarvan said:


> Too add punch you need to develop a warhead which is not nuclear but still almost equally destructive.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> Yr I know it.
> But I want pic of Sh1 & Panter for "dil ki tasali"
> In our arsenal ......
> 
> 
> He want one 122mm MLRS, one 270mm MLRS and one multiple ballistic launch system similar to M270



I had a few pics of Panter in service but my device got stolen so...

The SH-1 shown during IDEAS was also the one that was tested in Pakistan.



Tipu7 said:


> Which war head?
> Name it......
> High explosive? Thermobaric?


A-100s come with theromobaric warheads ... Several types of missiles for it are being produced in a certain factory/worshop setup for A-100 and its ammo... Don't ask me where... Not sure if it's smart to disclose the stuff..

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## ConcealCarry

To deal with that, you need this










Zarvan said:


> Well those beasts are needed to stop India's Armor Brigades. This tactical nuclear thing is nothing but totally suicidal move. We need massive firepower which can be provided through the MRLs @Tipu7 mentioned





Zarvan said:


> Well those beasts are needed to stop India's Armor Brigades. This tactical nuclear thing is nothing but totally suicidal move. We need massive firepower which can be provided through the MRLs @Tipu7 mentioned

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## Wolf

is there any chinese copy or version of M 777 155mm howitzers? How effective is panter 155mm howitzer as compared to M 777? Regards.


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## Inception-06

Wolf said:


> is there any chinese copy or version of M 777 155mm howitzers? How effective is panter 155mm howitzer as compared to M 777? Regards.



Its mobility is higher !


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## Zarvan

Ulla said:


> Its mobility is higher !


China has already developed a light weight 155 mm Artillery Gun. Also one unknown country has placed orders for it

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## Army research

Tipu7 said:


> M110 203mm & M109 155mm SPA
> 
> View attachment 313885
> 
> 
> 
> KRL 155mm MLRS
> 
> View attachment 313886
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting .........................


 that is not a krl mrls it is a mine launching vehicle genius


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> that is not a krl mrls it is a mine launching vehicle genius


They are MRLS not mine launching vechiles

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> They are MRLS not mine launching vechiles


Okay man thanks it's just that there engineer guys and my dads from core of engineers so when we were watching 23 March parade the commentator and my dad said its mine launching vehicle you can watch YouTube video and when it comes it's says mine vehicle in 23 March parade 2016 anyway if I'm wrong correct me



Tipu7 said:


> M110 203mm & M109 155mm SPA
> 
> View attachment 313885
> 
> 
> 
> KRL 155mm MLRS
> 
> View attachment 313886
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting .........................





Zarvan said:


> They are MRLS not mine launching vechiles


 damn sure it's a mine launching vehicle



Army research said:


> Okay man thanks it's just that there engineer guys and my dads from core of engineers so when we were watching 23 March parade the commentator and my dad said its mine launching vehicle you can watch YouTube video and when it comes it's says mine vehicle in 23 March parade 2016 anyway if I'm wrong correct me
> 
> 
> 
> damn sure it's a mine launching vehicle


Still correct if I'm wrong


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Okay man thanks it's just that there engineer guys and my dads from core of engineers so when we were watching 23 March parade the commentator and my dad said its mine launching vehicle you can watch YouTube video and when it comes it's says mine vehicle in 23 March parade 2016 anyway if I'm wrong correct me
> 
> 
> 
> damn sure it's a mine launching vehicle
> 
> 
> Still correct if I'm wrong


Sir I have watched the video. Camera work was late and really bad so most vechiles detail either came or late


----------



## Tipu7

Army research said:


> that is not a krl mrls it is a mine launching vehicle genius


My dear, platform is same. It's up to you what you carry above. Rocket system or mine disperser. 
KRL122 is MLRS, but if Army have managed to develop its version on similar chassis which can disperse mines then it's good news......


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## Army research

Tipu7 said:


> My dear, platform is same. It's up to you what you carry above. Rocket system or mine disperser.
> KRL122 is MLRS, but if Army have managed to develop its version on similar chassis which can disperse mines then it's good news......


It's okay you guys probably know more it's just that my dad and video and engineer core guys on the truck (blue caps have one in home) made me believe it anyways thanks for telling me 


Zarvan said:


> Sir I have watched the video. Camera work was late and really bad so most vechiles detail either came or late


----------



## Kaavinsky

:O! Aweeesome.


----------



## jermankill

A noob question....
do we have air burst warhead in artillery ?


----------



## Army research

Y


jermankill said:


> A noob question....
> do we have air burst warhead in artillery ?


 yes even our RPG have anti infantry air burst and yes RPG fires lots of different rounds

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## Arsalan

jermankill said:


> A noob question....
> do we have air burst warhead in artillery ?


Yes!

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## Army research

jermankill said:


> A noob question....
> do we have air burst warhead in artillery ?


 don't feel shy asking noob questions mate just

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> They are MRLS not mine launching vechiles


It is called RDMS rocket delivered mine system. Why do you suppose it it is in possession of engineers.

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## Army research

kaonalpha said:


> It is called RDMS rocket delivered mine system. Why do you suppose it it is in possession of engineers.


Told you @Zarvan


----------



## fatman17

*China completes development of 155 mm AH4 howitzer*
*Christopher F Foss, London* - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
18 July 2016






An AH4 155 mm/39 calibre LGH shown deployed in its firing position with the stabilisers presented. Source: NORINCO
China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has confirmed that development of its AH4 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight gun-howitzer (LGH) has been completed and the company is ready to begin production when orders are placed.

In many respects the Chinese AH4 155 mm/39 calibre LGH is very similar in concept to the BAE Systems M777 155 mm/39 calibre Lightweight Howitzer (LH) that was originally developed as a private venture by Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Limited (VSEL) and is now in service with Australia, Canada, and the US Army and Marine Corps.

NORINCO states that the AH4 has a combat weight of 4,500 kg, including its hydro-pneumatic suspension that enables the weapon to be deployed in firing position within three minutes and returned to its towed position in two minutes.

The AH4's elevation and traverse limits are almost identical to the M777 at -3 to 72° and 22.5° respectively.

It is operated by a crew of seven and when travelling the AH4 is towed by its muzzle.

A maximum range of 25 km can be achieved when firing the 155 mm Extended-Range Full-Bore Hollow-Base High-Explosive (ERFB-HB/HE) projectile.

The range can be extended to 30 km if the ERFB-Base Bleed/HE is employed. The weapon can engage targets out to 40 km with the latest ERFB-BB-Rocket Assist/HE projectile, although this may result in a loss of accuracy.

NORINCO has confirmed that the AH4 is also capable of firing its expanded family of 155 mm precision-guided munitions (PGMs). These include the latest 155 mm laser-guided projectile (LGP) GP6, which has a maximum range of 25 km with a first round hit probability of 90% and is capable of engaging stationary and moving targets.

This is a follow-on to the earlier 155 mm GP1 LGP and is claimed to have a higher resistance to jamming. Its multiple laser coding technology enables co-operative multi-target engagement.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> *China completes development of 155 mm AH4 howitzer*
> *Christopher F Foss, London* - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 18 July 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An AH4 155 mm/39 calibre LGH shown deployed in its firing position with the stabilisers presented. Source: NORINCO
> China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has confirmed that development of its AH4 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight gun-howitzer (LGH) has been completed and the company is ready to begin production when orders are placed.
> 
> In many respects the Chinese AH4 155 mm/39 calibre LGH is very similar in concept to the BAE Systems M777 155 mm/39 calibre Lightweight Howitzer (LH) that was originally developed as a private venture by Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Limited (VSEL) and is now in service with Australia, Canada, and the US Army and Marine Corps.
> 
> NORINCO states that the AH4 has a combat weight of 4,500 kg, including its hydro-pneumatic suspension that enables the weapon to be deployed in firing position within three minutes and returned to its towed position in two minutes.
> 
> The AH4's elevation and traverse limits are almost identical to the M777 at -3 to 72° and 22.5° respectively.
> 
> It is operated by a crew of seven and when travelling the AH4 is towed by its muzzle.
> 
> A maximum range of 25 km can be achieved when firing the 155 mm Extended-Range Full-Bore Hollow-Base High-Explosive (ERFB-HB/HE) projectile.
> 
> The range can be extended to 30 km if the ERFB-Base Bleed/HE is employed. The weapon can engage targets out to 40 km with the latest ERFB-BB-Rocket Assist/HE projectile, although this may result in a loss of accuracy.
> 
> NORINCO has confirmed that the AH4 is also capable of firing its expanded family of 155 mm precision-guided munitions (PGMs). These include the latest 155 mm laser-guided projectile (LGP) GP6, which has a maximum range of 25 km with a first round hit probability of 90% and is capable of engaging stationary and moving targets.
> 
> This is a follow-on to the earlier 155 mm GP1 LGP and is claimed to have a higher resistance to jamming. Its multiple laser coding technology enables co-operative multi-target engagement.


One country has already placed order for this Gun. China hasn't revealed the name of that country

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> One country has already placed order for this Gun. China hasn't revealed the name of that country


Source?

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## aamirzs

*Comment and Analysis*

While the NORINCO AH4 is in its infancy as a program, China’s possession of a lightweight platform cannot be understated. As the AH4 line matures, the People Liberation Army (PLA) and Chinese defence industry will be among a handful of players in the world capable of fielding lightweight 155mm howitzers.

In the past, lightweight artillery applications made use of smaller shells (e.g. 105mm and 85mm) in order to achieve the weight parameters necessary for aerial lift or easy mobility, which is essential for use in less accessible battlefields, such as mountainous areas.

With the M777, Pegasus (Singapore) and AH4, countries now have the option to bring heavier shells to areas where it was previously not feasible, and in turn, elevate the offensive pressure.

While India is procuring the M777, it is unclear if Pakistan would opt for the AH4 in response. The value of the AH4 rests in its lightweight nature, but to make use of it, one still needs assets capable of lifting a 4500kg gun piece. Pakistan does possess fixed-wing transports such as the C-130 and CN-235, but for rapid field deployment and use, a helicopter capable of pulling the AH4 is necessary.

Pakistan does not have such an aircraft, though it did show interest in acquiring surplus CH-47 from Italy in 2011-2012. It is likely a requirement for heavy-lift helicopters exists. Pakistan was especially pleased at the CH-47’s performance during the aftermath of the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake. Should the Pakistan Army acquire heavy-lift helicopters, either in the form of surplus CH-47 or an alternative (e.g. the Russian Mi-26 or Sino-Russian ALH), the AH4 would be a natural addition.

Pakistan could also consider using the AH4 as a self-propelled solution. This could be done by binding the gun to a truck or wheeled armoured personnel carrier. It is not clear how much use Pakistan would have for such a system, but given the increasing presence of roads in the region as well as potential long-term tensions on its Western front, a lightweight self-propelled howitzer could be of interest to the Army.


Source: http://quwa.org/2016/07/19/norinco-ready-produce-ah4-lightweight-howitzer/



Path-Finder said:


> Source?



_Modern Weaponry _magazine, the AH-4 was already able to win its first export order, with a Middle Eastern country allegedly picking China’s new lightweight howitzer over BAE Systems’ M777, China Defense Blog revealed.

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## WaLeEdK2

Zarvan said:


> One country has already placed order for this Gun. China hasn't revealed the name of that country



What other countries other than Pakistan could be possible?


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## Path-Finder

aamirzs said:


> *Comment and Analysis*
> 
> While the NORINCO AH4 is in its infancy as a program, China’s possession of a lightweight platform cannot be understated. As the AH4 line matures, the People Liberation Army (PLA) and Chinese defence industry will be among a handful of players in the world capable of fielding lightweight 155mm howitzers.
> 
> In the past, lightweight artillery applications made use of smaller shells (e.g. 105mm and 85mm) in order to achieve the weight parameters necessary for aerial lift or easy mobility, which is essential for use in less accessible battlefields, such as mountainous areas.
> 
> With the M777, Pegasus (Singapore) and AH4, countries now have the option to bring heavier shells to areas where it was previously not feasible, and in turn, elevate the offensive pressure.
> 
> While India is procuring the M777, it is unclear if Pakistan would opt for the AH4 in response. The value of the AH4 rests in its lightweight nature, but to make use of it, one still needs assets capable of lifting a 4500kg gun piece. Pakistan does possess fixed-wing transports such as the C-130 and CN-235, but for rapid field deployment and use, a helicopter capable of pulling the AH4 is necessary.
> 
> Pakistan does not have such an aircraft, though it did show interest in acquiring surplus CH-47 from Italy in 2011-2012. It is likely a requirement for heavy-lift helicopters exists. Pakistan was especially pleased at the CH-47’s performance during the aftermath of the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake. Should the Pakistan Army acquire heavy-lift helicopters, either in the form of surplus CH-47 or an alternative (e.g. the Russian Mi-26 or Sino-Russian ALH), the AH4 would be a natural addition.
> 
> Pakistan could also consider using the AH4 as a self-propelled solution. This could be done by binding the gun to a truck or wheeled armoured personnel carrier. It is not clear how much use Pakistan would have for such a system, but given the increasing presence of roads in the region as well as potential long-term tensions on its Western front, a lightweight self-propelled howitzer could be of interest to the Army.
> 
> 
> Source: http://quwa.org/2016/07/19/norinco-ready-produce-ah4-lightweight-howitzer/
> 
> 
> 
> _Modern Weaponry _magazine, the AH-4 was already able to win its first export order, with a Middle Eastern country allegedly picking China’s new lightweight howitzer over BAE Systems’ M777, China Defense Blog revealed.


it can be UAE or Saudi? Or not.


----------



## Army research

aamirzs said:


> *Comment and Analysis*
> 
> While the NORINCO AH4 is in its infancy as a program, China’s possession of a lightweight platform cannot be understated. As the AH4 line matures, the People Liberation Army (PLA) and Chinese defence industry will be among a handful of players in the world capable of fielding lightweight 155mm howitzers.
> 
> In the past, lightweight artillery applications made use of smaller shells (e.g. 105mm and 85mm) in order to achieve the weight parameters necessary for aerial lift or easy mobility, which is essential for use in less accessible battlefields, such as mountainous areas.
> 
> With the M777, Pegasus (Singapore) and AH4, countries now have the option to bring heavier shells to areas where it was previously not feasible, and in turn, elevate the offensive pressure.
> 
> While India is procuring the M777, it is unclear if Pakistan would opt for the AH4 in response. The value of the AH4 rests in its lightweight nature, but to make use of it, one still needs assets capable of lifting a 4500kg gun piece. Pakistan does possess fixed-wing transports such as the C-130 and CN-235, but for rapid field deployment and use, a helicopter capable of pulling the AH4 is necessary.
> 
> Pakistan does not have such an aircraft, though it did show interest in acquiring surplus CH-47 from Italy in 2011-2012. It is likely a requirement for heavy-lift helicopters exists. Pakistan was especially pleased at the CH-47’s performance during the aftermath of the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake. Should the Pakistan Army acquire heavy-lift helicopters, either in the form of surplus CH-47 or an alternative (e.g. the Russian Mi-26 or Sino-Russian ALH), the AH4 would be a natural addition.
> 
> Pakistan could also consider using the AH4 as a self-propelled solution. This could be done by binding the gun to a truck or wheeled armoured personnel carrier. It is not clear how much use Pakistan would have for such a system, but given the increasing presence of roads in the region as well as potential long-term tensions on its Western front, a lightweight self-propelled howitzer could be of interest to the Army.
> 
> 
> Source: http://quwa.org/2016/07/19/norinco-ready-produce-ah4-lightweight-howitzer/
> 
> 
> 
> _Modern Weaponry _magazine, the AH-4 was already able to win its first export order, with a Middle Eastern country allegedly picking China’s new lightweight howitzer over BAE Systems’ M777, China Defense Blog revealed.


Would it not be more suitable for Pakistan to have heavy self propelled mortars on the western front what do you say any way for conventional deterrence on east we need these baby's on m113 apc with pgm to knock out Indian army cold start attacks also with help of Sam's protecting them 
And does anyone know what happened to Pakistan indigenous I remember in ideas 2001 they had one


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## fatman17

it is a good opportunity for ToT for this weapon system if Pakistan opts for it.

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## Army research

Army research said:


> Would it not be more suitable for Pakistan to have heavy self propelled mortars on the western front what do you say any way for conventional deterrence on east we need these baby's on m113 apc with pgm to knock out Indian army cold start attacks also with help of Sam's protecting them
> And does anyone know what happened to Pakistan indigenous I remember in ideas 2001 they had one


On m113 with pgm shells IE thermal seeking shells


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## Arsalan

Must opt for ToT for this gun. There are not many other options out there. However i surely will like to add that PA must conduct extensive trials this time before selecting a gun to go with. We have had some mess ups in the past.

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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> Must opt for ToT for this gun. There are not many other options out there. However i surely will like to add that PA must conduct extensive trials this time before selecting a gun to go with. We have had some mess ups in the past.


Of course they will sir in past army did not even have architects so engineers made flawed designs now we are very much trained sir and I'll try to get info from some friends in artillery core OK


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## Joe Shearer

Army research said:


> Of course they will sir in past army did not even have architects so engineers made flawed designs now we are very much trained sir and I'll try to get info from some friends in artillery core OK



@Arsalan 

Nobody talks to me like that. What's the secret?


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## Army research

Joe Shearer said:


> @Arsalan
> 
> Nobody talks to me like that. What's the secret?


There is no secret mate haha haha

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## RAMPAGE

Joe Shearer said:


> @Arsalan
> 
> Nobody talks to me like that. What's the secret?


Pakistani members show better manners when they converse with (Pakistani) seniors?

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## Army research

RAMPAGE said:


> Pakistani members show better manners when they converse with (Pakistani) seniors?


Yes sir

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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> What other countries other than Pakistan could be possible?


KSA as they are already operating Chinese SP artillery Gun or even Morroco or Algeria or also Bangladesh


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## RAMPAGE

Arsalan said:


> Must opt for ToT for this gun. There are not many other options out there. However i surely will like to add that PA must conduct extensive trials this time before selecting a gun to go with. We have had some mess ups in the past.


Didn't those Panters came with some ToT?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAMPAGE said:


> Didn't those Panters came with some ToT?


Panters aren't mighty guns.. They are more like a hybrid tow cum SP guns..

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## RAMPAGE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Panters aren't mighty guns.. They are more like a hybrid tow cum SP guns..


They're as mighty as a M777 aren't they? Just a little heavier.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

RAMPAGE said:


> They're as mighty as a M777 aren't they? Just a little heavier.


Yup hardly 300 kg.


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## fatman17

Army research said:


> Would it not be more suitable for Pakistan to have heavy self propelled mortars on the western front what do you say any way for conventional deterrence on east we need these baby's on m113 apc with pgm to knock out Indian army cold start attacks also with help of Sam's protecting them
> And does anyone know what happened to Pakistan indigenous I remember in ideas 2001 they had one



This item is on the procurement list of the army. extensive funds up to 1.5 bill US will be utilised over the next 5 years.


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## Arsalan

RAMPAGE said:


> Didn't those Panters came with some ToT?


Some! 
But we never made more than we actually planned for (72 guns if i am remembering correctly). AND, this was never the number of guns required. So now we will opt for some new gun when an options arise.



Army research said:


> Of course they will sir in past army did not even have architects so engineers made flawed designs now we are very much trained sir and I'll try to get info from some friends in artillery core OK


Dear we had almost same capabilities when we opted for Panter but still... 
Anyway, you may check with your artillery core friends and may be you can get some idea of what they are thinking for future. Not very likely but still, no harm in trying right? 



Joe Shearer said:


> @Arsalan
> 
> Nobody talks to me like that. What's the secret?


Dont I sir?


----------



## Joe Shearer

Arsalan said:


> Some!
> But we never made more than we actually planned for (72 guns if i am remembering correctly). AND, this was never the number of guns required. So now we will opt for some new gun when an options arise.
> 
> 
> Dear we had almost same capabilities when we opted for Panter but still...
> Anyway, you may check with your artillery core friends and may be you can get some idea of what they are thinking for future. Not very likely but still, no harm in trying right?
> 
> 
> Dont I sir?



Ah, the noble and very flattering exception. I was speaking about the younglings.

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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> This item is on the procurement list of the army. extensive funds up to 1.5 bill US will be utilised over the next 5 years.


Which item? Chinese AH-4 Howitzer?


----------



## Arsalan

Joe Shearer said:


> Ah, the noble and very flattering exception. I was speaking about the younglings.


Give them some time and they will realize it as well. Till then, excuse there lack of knowledge sir  Bachay han sir  

On Topic: Do any one with some connections have any idea if we are actually looking to buy AH4? 
@fatman17 @Dazzler @balixd @Bratva 

I seriously we invest wisely in this, ToT with HIT manufacturing guns to meet our needs will be great and we can then actually start working towards fulfilling that dream of standardizing the field artillery to 155mm.


----------



## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Give them some time and they will realize it as well. Till then, excuse there lack of knowledge sir  Bachay han sir
> 
> On Topic: Do any one with some connections have any idea if we are actually looking to buy AH4?
> @fatman17 @Dazzler @balixd @Bratva
> 
> I seriously we invest wisely in this, ToT with HIT manufacturing guns to meet our needs will be great and we can then actually start working towards fulfilling that dream of standardizing the field artillery to 155mm.



It will be presented to Pakistan as an option at some point which may be the refusal by US of supplying additional M109A5s which are SP and this is a towed variant. It's all about the numbers.


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> It will be presented to Pakistan as an option at some point which may be the refusal by US of supplying additional M109A5s which are SP and this is a towed variant. It's all about the numbers.


I hope we do not stupidly sir and procure towed artillery in place of the denied SP howitzers. There are plenty of options in SP as well and any future replacement or addition to M109s should come in shape of SP howitzers. A5 however can be a great system to achieve that standardization ammunition goal set in Musharaf era which aimed at phasing out all others guns and sticking to 155mm only (then there were some ideas of keeping 122mm as well later on if i remember correctly)

If we can get TOT we can keep making them at a phase that we can afford and keep replacing our old guns of different calibers with this 1555mm and make this a standard for the armed forces. Easier to maintain and even more easy to resupply in battle field.

It is more about thinking on these lines and taking the required action rather than funding or finance!!

What do you think about this Sir @fatman17


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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> Must opt for ToT for this gun. There are not many other options out there. However i surely will like to add that PA must conduct extensive trials this time before selecting a gun to go with. We have had some mess ups in the past.


A lightweight gun is a lightweight gun, which isn't common in today's marketplace. So, if the rifle has performance problems, the PA could invest in its improvement, and in turn, demand ToT for the updated version.

As for alternative SPH. We spoke of this before, but take a modern tank hull - e.g. VT-4 or Oplot - and convert into a SPH. The South Africans have (or at least had) experience in this area. We could also attach the AH-4 or MKEK Panter to Czech Tatra trucks, like Nexter did.

http://defence-blog.com/army/nexter-unveiled-new-caesar-8x8-self-propelled-artillery-system.html

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> I hope we do not stupidly sir and procure towed artillery in place of the denied SP howitzers. There are plenty of options in SP as well and any future replacement or addition to M109s should come in shape of SP howitzers. A5 however can be a great system to achieve that standardization ammunition goal set in Musharaf era which aimed at phasing out all others guns and sticking to 155mm only (then there were some ideas of keeping 122mm as well later on if i remember correctly)
> 
> If we can get TOT we can keep making them at a phase that we can afford and keep replacing our old guns of different calibers with this 1555mm and make this a standard for the armed forces. Easier to maintain and even more easy to resupply in battle field.
> 
> It is more about thinking on these lines and taking the required action rather than funding or finance!!
> 
> What do you think about this Sir @fatman17



These would come in handy in hilly terrain like fata or azad kashmir LOC.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> These would come in handy in hilly terrain like fata or azad kashmir LOC.


They sure will sir. We do need the light weight artillery no doubt about that. I was just saying that we cannot take them as a replacement of self-propelled howitzers and provided there are no more additions in for of M109 we should look for other options in that field as well. Side by side with the towed artillery for less accessible terrain.


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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> A lightweight gun is a lightweight gun, which isn't common in today's marketplace. So, if the rifle has performance problems, the PA could invest in its improvement, and in turn, demand ToT for the updated version.


Yes, i just hope they do. Those glitches (if any) need to be addressed and we do need some light weight artillery for our area with relatively difficult access. I am just saying that those problems should be identified before any big deal is struck, addressed and resolved. Do not need to go for direct purchase with TOT, plan an initial batch of 72 guns and then realize that there is some serious problem that eventually stops the project altogether (no more guns made even though we initially planned for more and that is why we got TOT as well) 
We have seen that happen in past and we should be more sensible going forward. 



> As for alternative SPH. We spoke of this before, but take a modern tank hull - e.g. VT-4 or Oplot - and convert into a SPH. The South Africans have (or at least had) experience in this area. We could also attach the AH-4 or MKEK Panter to Czech Tatra trucks, like Nexter did.
> 
> http://defence-blog.com/army/nexter-unveiled-new-caesar-8x8-self-propelled-artillery-system.html


Yes we indeed discussed this before and that surely is THE BEST option. Our very own ARMATA as i would like to call it . 
The thing here is that is that is not happening still we wont or at least shouldn't try to manage the SP howitzer requirement with light weight artillery.


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## This Man

I love the artillery ....


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## Army research

News from a guy I know in artillery ah4 was tested in Kashmir it was declined


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## monitor

Army research said:


> News from a guy I know in artillery ah4 was tested in Kashmir it was declined



Why it was decline ?

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## Army research

monitor said:


> Why it was decline ?


He said that after trials it was declined because does it does not meet operational requirements

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## Gryphon

Army research said:


> He said that after trials *it was declined* because does *it does not meet operational requirements*



It looked quite awesome. 



@DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Irfan Baloch

Defense News reported in June 2015 that


> *Serbia has sent one of its APC and SPA systems for evaluation*


 Any update on this SPA system (certainly Nora B-52).


----------



## Signalian

Army research said:


> He said that after trials it was declined because does it does not meet operational requirements





monitor said:


> Why it was decline ?





Army research said:


> News from a guy I know in artillery ah4 was tested in Kashmir it was declined



The Type-59-I , 130mm gun , used in kashmir region already has a range of 27 km unassisted with max range 38km. 

AH-4 although 155mm doesnt offer anything substantial over Type-59. Its range is 25km unassisted with 40km assisted.

Its light weight, 4500kg but Mi-17 can carry external sling cargo in range of 3000kg, so air lifting can be tricky

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## Basel

Quwa said:


> A lightweight gun is a lightweight gun, which isn't common in today's marketplace. So, if the rifle has performance problems, the PA could invest in its improvement, and in turn, demand ToT for the updated version.
> 
> As for alternative SPH. We spoke of this before, but take a modern tank hull - e.g. VT-4 or Oplot - and convert into a SPH. The South Africans have (or at least had) experience in this area. We could also attach the AH-4 or MKEK Panter to Czech Tatra trucks, like Nexter did.
> 
> http://defence-blog.com/army/nexter-unveiled-new-caesar-8x8-self-propelled-artillery-system.html



We also have SH-1s SPH why they cant be built (TOT) or purchased to add SPH numbers?



Army research said:


> He said that after trials it was declined because does it does not meet operational requirements



Turkey can also provide its SPH if it fits the requirements of PA.







Chinese one:


----------



## Amaa'n

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It looked quite awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Irfan Baloch
> 
> Defense News reported in June 2015 that Any update on this SPA system (certainly Nora B-52).


What lead me to this Thread is something that I came across tonight on the road ---- moments ago, i passed by a Truck mounted Howitzer not sure what make it was, plus it was odd to stop near such a beast when it is surrounded by Personnel with ready to shoot position ----- since i was driving so i could not take a good look at this machine but my search led me to believe that it was either Nora B52 because the gun was just resting on the Driver cabin, had it been Eva 155 or other, then design would have been different -----

@Quwa @Arsalan , so are we testing this machine or what??

now am pissed off with myself for not stopping by and taking a good look at that machine ---- i should have stopped ----

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## Basel

balixd said:


> What lead me to this Thread is something that I came across tonight on the road ---- moments ago, i passed by a Truck mounted Howitzer not sure what make it was, plus it was odd to stop near such a beast when it is surrounded by Personnel with ready to shoot position ----- since i was driving so i could not take a good look at this machine but my search led me to believe that it was either Nora B52 because the gun was just resting on the Driver cabin, had it been Eva 155 or other, then design would have been different -----
> 
> @Quwa @Arsalan , so are we testing this machine or what??
> 
> now am missed off with myself for not stopping by and taking a good look at that machine ---- i should have stopped ----



May be your thoughts are right, but it could be SH-1 too.

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## Amaa'n

Basel said:


> May be your thoughts are right, but it could be SH-1 too.


nah! SH-1 has a Hood popping out at the front ----- this had a flat front end + SH-1 Gun falls out of the driver cabin at front - length of the gun is more than that of Truck -----
The one I saw had Gun shorter in length

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## Areesh

balixd said:


> What lead me to this Thread is something that I came across tonight on the road ---- moments ago, i passed by a Truck mounted Howitzer not sure what make it was, plus it was odd to stop near such a beast when it is surrounded by Personnel with ready to shoot position ----- since i was driving so i could not take a good look at this machine but my search led me to believe that it was either *Nora B52* because the gun was just resting on the Driver cabin, had it been Eva 155 or other, then design would have been different -----
> 
> @Quwa @Arsalan , so are we testing this machine or what??
> 
> now am pissed off with myself for not stopping by and taking a good look at that machine ---- i should have stopped ----



Nice nice.

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## Amaa'n

@Horus @fatman17 you guys have any info of any Truck mounted Howitzer under trails
?

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## Basel

balixd said:


> nah! SH-1 has a Hood popping out at the front ----- this had a flat front end + SH-1 Gun falls out of the driver cabin at front - length of the gun is more than that of Truck -----
> The one I saw had Gun shorter in length



If true then it's good for PA, and may be stealthy system too, compared to SH-1s.



balixd said:


> @Horus @fatman17 you guys have any info of any Truck mounted Howitzer under trails
> ?



http://defence-blog.com/army/konstr...6-155-mm-self-propelled-howitzer-at-idet.html








http://www.military-today.com/artillery/nora_b52.htm











http://www.military-today.com/artillery/caesar.htm






Edit.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/sh1.htm

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> What lead me to this Thread is something that I came across tonight on the road ---- moments ago, i passed by a Truck mounted Howitzer not sure what make it was, plus it was odd to stop near such a beast when it is surrounded by Personnel with ready to shoot position ----- since i was driving so i could not take a good look at this machine but my search led me to believe that it was either Nora B52 because the gun was just resting on the Driver cabin, had it been Eva 155 or other, then design would have been different -----
> 
> @Quwa @Arsalan , so are we testing this machine or what??
> 
> now am pissed off with myself for not stopping by and taking a good look at that machine ---- i should have stopped ----


You know what, i am MORE pissed off at your for not stopping and having a good look! 

I think it is Nora B52 as *there were talks of some Serbian systems coming to Pakistan for evaluation (included an IFV or APC as well/most probable Lazar).* I will check to be sure. 
However i do not completely understand why we are looking to buy so many weapon systems in the same class. We already have SH-1 and we acquired it with ToT and produced some 60 guns at home. Continuing with that would have made more sense. Nora however do offer that MRSI option, my personal fav.  



Basel said:


> May be your thoughts are right, but it could be SH-1 too.


I do not think HE would mix a Nora with SH-1. They both look quite different.



Basel said:


> If true then it's good for PA, and *may be stealthy system too*, compared to SH-1s.


O nai bahi!! No "stealth" ambitions in this regard. Just a front flat design by default and choice of truck and that is it.

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## Inception-06

Arsalan said:


> You know what, i am MORE pissed off at your for not stopping and having a good look!
> 
> I think it is Nora B52 as *there were talks of some Serbian systems coming to Pakistan for evaluation (included an IFV or APC as well/most probable Lazar).* I will check to be sure.
> However i do not completely understand why we are looking to buy so many weapon systems in the same class. We already have SH-1 and we acquired it with ToT and produced some 60 guns at home. Continuing with that would have made more sense. Nora however do offer that MRSI option, my personal fav.
> 
> 
> I do not think HE would mix a Nora with SH-1. They both look quite different.
> 
> 
> O nai bahi!! No "stealth" ambitions in this regard. Just a front flat design by default and choice of truck and that is it.



I doubt that the SH-1 is in service with our army,it was never shown on any parade, exercise or listed in any offical document.


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> You know what, i am MORE pissed off at your for not stopping and having a good look!
> 
> I think it is Nora B52 as *there were talks of some Serbian systems coming to Pakistan for evaluation (included an IFV or APC as well/most probable Lazar).* I will check to be sure.
> However i do not completely understand why we are looking to buy so many weapon systems in the same class. We already have SH-1 and we acquired it with ToT and produced some 60 guns at home. Continuing with that would have made more sense. Nora however do offer that MRSI option, my personal fav.
> 
> 
> I do not think HE would mix a Nora with SH-1. They both look quite different.
> 
> 
> O nai bahi!! No "stealth" ambitions in this regard. Just a front flat design by default and choice of truck and that is it.


I know man, tell me about it, and i feel worst everytime i think about that moment, i wanted to stop but my younger sibling sitting beside me was a bit scared --- he was already saying "bhai janay chalaty jain, ye marein ge" -----it was midnight 
am asking around lets see if i can get this confirmed

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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> I know man, tell me about it, and i feel worst everytime i think about that moment, i wanted to stop but my younger sibling sitting beside me was a bit scared --- he was already saying "bhai janay chalaty jain, ye marein ge" -----it was midnight
> am asking around lets see if i can get this confirmed


It is about 80% confirmed already based on the chatter going around for past two three days. 
Have asked a couple of guys directly at the Artillery school Nowshera  
ya tu galiaan nekalain gy ka how i know about it ya phr insaan ka bachon ke trha bta dain gy 



Ulla said:


> I doubt that the SH-1 is in service with our army,it was never shown on any parade, exercise or listed in any offical document.


No reason to doubt that. We have taken delivery of first batch of SH-1 back in 2013-2014.

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## Inception-06

Arsalan said:


> It is about 80% confirmed already based on the chatter going around for past two three days.
> Have asked a couple of guys directly at the Artillery school Nowshera
> ya tu galiaan nekalain gy ka how i know about it ya phr insaan ka bachon ke trha bta dain gy
> 
> 
> No reason to doubt that. We have taken delivery of first batch of SH-1 back in 2013-2014.
> 
> [/Q



I shut my mouth ! You have delivered the ultimate proof, regards !

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## Basel

Arsalan said:


> You know what, i am MORE pissed off at your for not stopping and having a good look!
> 
> I think it is Nora B52 as *there were talks of some Serbian systems coming to Pakistan for evaluation (included an IFV or APC as well/most probable Lazar).* I will check to be sure.
> However i do not completely understand why we are looking to buy so many weapon systems in the same class. We already have SH-1 and we acquired it with ToT and produced some 60 guns at home. Continuing with that would have made more sense. Nora however do offer that MRSI option, my personal fav.
> 
> 
> I do not think HE would mix a Nora with SH-1. They both look quite different.
> 
> 
> O nai bahi!! No "stealth" ambitions in this regard. Just a front flat design by default and choice of truck and that is it.



There is big difference between stealth & stealthy. SH-1 may have more RCS then Nora.

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## Arsalan

Basel said:


> There is big difference between stealth & stealthy. SH-1 may have more RCS then Nora.


I understand that you said "Stealthy", i was just saying that the front flat configuration is not with those* intentions*.

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## pzfz

Could be the denel t-52 (truck mounted g52). RS was seen checking it out in SAfrica.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

balixd said:


> What lead me to this Thread is something that I came across tonight on the road ---- moments ago, i passed by a Truck mounted Howitzer not sure what make it was, plus it was odd to stop near such a beast when it is surrounded by Personnel with ready to shoot position ----- since i was driving so i could not take a good look at this machine but my search led me to believe that it was either Nora B52 because the gun was just resting on the Driver cabin, had it been Eva 155 or other, then design would have been different -----
> 
> @Quwa @Arsalan , so are we testing this machine or what??
> 
> now am pissed off with myself for not stopping by and taking a good look at that machine ---- i should have stopped ----


This might interest you all - article is dated 26 August 2016 (i.e. last week).



> Ntsehpe revealed that Denel is testing its T5-52 truck mounted G5 artillery piece in a foreign country (possibly Pakistan) and that it has performed very well. He said he hopes the weapon will penetrate the Asia-Pacific market.


http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...eo-artillery-project&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

@balixd @Arsalan

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## pzfz

A lot of arty in China is also based off of the venerable SAfrican G5 - 45 cal. UAE has the wheeled version in the G6.


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## mdcp

Pakistan should prepare small vehicles like jeep used in world war with anti tank, anti air missile and heavy machine guns on top 

We can produce in large numbers, can be cheaper and quicker to operate

Indian intentions not looking good so we should prepare ourselves for any emergency adventure by our enemy


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might interest you all - article is dated 26 August 2016 (i.e. last week).
> 
> 
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...eo-artillery-project&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105
> 
> @balixd @Arsalan


The word is that we are looking for some wheeled SPH for the northern areas. The heli transportable is really not for us right now with the current helicopter fleet plus considering the good road network in most parts of that region (northern) we are looking for a good wheeled SPH. Denel T5 is part of that interest. So is Serbia Nora B52. The main advantage they offer over the existing SH-1 is the MRSI capability with 6 and 4 rounds respectively. SH-1 is not reported to have any major issues so that is not the reason for looking for other options. We had some problems with some of our recent artillery purchases but that was not with SH-1. So the look for new system is not because of that reason. Not sure how many guns are being looked at but it is confirmed that we are considering a few options.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might interest you all - article is dated 26 August 2016 (i.e. last week).
> 
> 
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...eo-artillery-project&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105
> 
> @balixd


Ok here is what i just got! 
We were looking at wheeled SPH options a few months back. They were not just for northern areas since i am being told that all systems failed in desert setup. However now there are new options being considered and it is not confirmed whether these are totally new players or are the modified versions of initially tested options. 

Now as far as i can tell from this available information and connect a few dots, this article is pointing towards those initial trails and evaluations. However that gun @balixd is for the new round of evaluation. I am not sure how much info will get out and unless it is confirmed i wont be comfortable sharing it so for now this is all we can say. There is interest being shown in wheeled SPH for some time now, after evaluation the initial options were rejected how the process is still on going and yes we are looking into some options still for wheeled SPH.

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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> Ok here is what i just got!
> We were looking at wheeled SPH options a few months back. They were not just for northern areas since i am being told that all systems failed in desert setup. However now there are new options being considered and it is not confirmed whether these are totally new players or are the modified versions of initially tested options.
> 
> Now as far as i can tell from this available information and connect a few dots, this article is pointing towards those initial trails and evaluations. However that gun @balixd is for the new round of evaluation. I am not sure how much info will get out and unless it is confirmed i wont be comfortable sharing it so for now this is all we can say. There is interest being shown in wheeled SPH for some time now, after evaluation the initial options were rejected how the process is still on going and yes we are looking into some options still for wheeled SPH.


i think for the sake of confidentiality we better dig up a hole and bury it all for now ----- lets wait for news to pop up here and there and then we can start the discussion ----- @*Bilal Khan (Quwa)* thanks for that reference post

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Ok here is what i just got!
> We were looking at wheeled SPH options a few months back. They were not just for northern areas since i am being told that all systems failed in desert setup. However now there are new options being considered and it is not confirmed whether these are totally new players or are the modified versions of initially tested options.
> 
> Now as far as i can tell from this available information and connect a few dots, this article is pointing towards those initial trails and evaluations. However that gun @balixd is for the new round of evaluation. I am not sure how much info will get out and unless it is confirmed i wont be comfortable sharing it so for now this is all we can say. There is interest being shown in wheeled SPH for some time now, after evaluation the initial options were rejected how the process is still on going and yes we are looking into some options still for wheeled SPH.


Did those already tested include this South African one ?


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## Arsalan

balixd said:


> i think for the sake of confidentiality we better dig up a hole and bury it all for now ----- lets wait for news to pop up here and there and then we can start the discussion ----- @*Bilal Khan (Quwa)* thanks for that reference post


lolz
I saw the alert that you have quoted me here and was thinking to drop you a message to say thay lets bury it for now. I have said all we can say for now. Glad i didnt went ahead with it without seeing this message  Would have made a fool of myself.

anyway, totally agreed and zipping it up for now on the note that there is some activity and we might be able to talk about this in more details in a few months. 



Zarvan said:


> Did those already tested include this South African one ?


Bro i suggest we do not speculate any further for now. Things will be out pretty soon.

@balixd by the way i am glad you saw that on the road, mentioned it here and got us all interested and involved. The call and digging uncovered some other developments as well, small but promising. That too will be out soon so lets wait till then.

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## pzfz

45 cal vs 52 cal might be better in the heat.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Arsalan The Denel LEO 105mm is light enough to be carried by our Mi-171s.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Arsalan The Denel LEO 105mm is light enough to be carried by our Mi-171s.


Yes sir. It will be tricky with weight reaching 3800 Kg but it is possible. Also it will be a good option considering it have a decent range in 105mm. We can always leave a few exceptions for special requirement and do not try and standardize them to 155mm. 
Anyway, till that happens the Type 59-I are in place and holding well. Plus a wheeled SPH will also cover a large part of problem area. Lets see how things progress.


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## Gryphon

Take a look at this picture posted by someone on social media. It is clearly Denel T5-52 155 mm SPH mounted on 8x8 truck chassis.







Also,







@DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Arsalan @Areesh @fatman17 @pzfz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan @Horus

I guess Nora B-52 has lagged in trials.. 

Pakistan Boosts Defense Budget | Defense News

Denel still pursuing LEO artillery project - defenceWeb

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Take a look at this picture posted by someone on social media. It is clearly Denel T5-52 155 mm SPH mounted on 8x8 truck chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Arsalan @Areesh @fatman17 @pzfz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan @Horus
> 
> I guess Nora B-52 has lagged in trials..
> 
> Pakistan Boosts Defense Budget | Defense News
> 
> Denel still pursuing LEO artillery project - defenceWeb



I think few Artillery systems will come from South Africa sooner or later also MRAPs


----------



## monitor

☰ MENU






A T5-52 howitzer. Photo credit: Denel Dynamics
Daily News
Aug 31, 2016Bilal Khan -
*DENEL SEEKING PARTNERS FOR LIGHTWEIGHT ARTILLERY*


South Africa’s Denel Group recently announced that it was still committed to completing the development of its Lightweight Experimental Ordnance (LEO) howitzer program. Denel Group’s acting CEO Zwelakhe Ntshepe also stated that the company was seeking partners to co-develop the howitzer. (Defence Web).

With the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) potentially seeking new artillery, the LEO program has returned to relevance. However, existing programs, most notably the 155mm G5 towed howitzer and G6 self-propelled howitzer (SPH), continue to show promise in the global artillery market.

For example, Denel announced that the G5-T52, which is a G5 gun mounted onto an 8×8 truck provided by the Czech vendor Tatra is being tested in an undisclosed foreign country (with positive results). Furthermore, an unnamed state in the Middle East is actively interesting in acquiring the G6 SPH, with two potential deals being close to fruition.

*Notes, Comments & Analysis:*

The LEO (also designated G7) is a 52-calibre 105mm howitzer with a weight of 3,800kg. This howitzer is noticeably lighter than current lightweight guns on the market, such as the BAE Systems M777 (4,200kg) and AH4 by NORINCO (4,500kg).

Although the M777 and AH4 are 155mm designs, Denel is pushing the G7 as a worthwhile lightweight artillery solution in its own right. Defence Web described it as a gun with the “_logistics footprint of a 105 mm howitzer but the range and terminal performance of a 155 mm system._”

As discussed in an earlier article on Quwa, lightweight artillery systems of this nature enable armies to field strong offensive power without being beset by severe logistical challenges. To put it into perspective, the Denel G7 could theoretically be carried by a Mi-171 utility helicopter via an external sling (assuming Army-Technology’s report of the Mi-171’s external payload being 4,000kg is correct).

Purely an example, but Pakistan could rapidly field artillery positions in its mountainous regions through the use of aviation assets such as the utility helicopters present in its fleet. If LEO development continues, there may even come a howitzer that is lighter than 3,000kg (Engineering News).

For Denel, the LEO’s entry into the world artillery market, especially with a co-development partner as well as large initial customer, would be ideal. In this respect, there is an opportunity for the company to scale and potentially offer a solution that is competitive in cost and performance to the likes of the AH4 and M777, respectively.

In addition, there is a vertical integration opportunity in that LEO customers could also procure artillery munitions, including base bleed shells capable of reaching 30km, from Rheinmetall Denel Munition. It could also draw upon the competencies of Denel Land Systems and Paramount Group to develop new self-propelled howitzer solutions using the LEO.

*QUWA DAILY*
Last Name

First Name

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*ADVERTISEMENT*

*ABOUT QUWA*
The Quwa Defence News & Analysis Group aims to provide relevant analysis on modern defence systems and their tactical applications; our work is specially focused on the acquisitions and activities of countries in Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

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## fatman17

This Rocket Assisted Norinco 155mm projectile has a range of 53KM. It can be GPS guided and with a maximum rate of fire of up to eight rounds a minute. 

The PLZ-05 below firing the ERFB-BBBRA are members of the Arty Regt, 123rd Mech Inf Div, 41 Group Army, Southern Theater Command.

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> This Rocket Assisted Norinco 155mm projectile has a range of 53KM. It can be GPS guided and with a maximum rate of fire of up to eight rounds a minute.
> 
> The PLZ-05 below firing the ERFB-BBBRA are members of the Arty Regt, 123rd Mech Inf Div, 41 Group Army, Southern Theater Command.



Lets first increase our armoured and mechanised formations then new supporting arms will make way.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Take a look at this picture posted by someone on social media. It is clearly Denel T5-52 155 mm SPH mounted on 8x8 truck chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Arsalan @Areesh @fatman17 @pzfz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan @Horus
> 
> I guess Nora B-52 has lagged in trials..
> 
> Pakistan Boosts Defense Budget | Defense News
> 
> Denel still pursuing LEO artillery project - defenceWeb



Both Denel T5-52 and Nora B52 are excellent systems as per our needs. Both have a good rate of fire, excellent range for a 52 cal howitzer, are self propelled and wheeled so that makes access to the northern areas easy and both come with MRSI impact which is the big thing in artillery these days and increases combat effectiveness multi-folds!


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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Both Denel T5-52 and Nora B52 are excellent systems as per our needs. Both have a good rate of fire, excellent range for a 52 cal howitzer, are self propelled and wheeled so that makes access to the northern areas easy and both come with MRSI impact which is the big thing in artillery these days and increases combat effectiveness multi-folds!



Both are based on 8x8 truck chassis. They are most likely for units responsible for arid areas of Sindh and South Punjab. 90 Norinco SH-1's based on 6x6 truck chassis were ordered for GB & AJK few years back. I believe the lighter (22 ton) SH-1 is more suitable for those areas than 28 ton T5-52 or Nora B-52K1. Driving a 8x8 truck (with more length than a 6x6 truck) on narrow hilly roads is prone to mishaps.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Both are based on 8x8 truck chassis. They are most likely for units responsible for arid areas of Sindh and South Punjab. 90 Norinco SH-1's based on 6x6 truck chassis were ordered for GB & AJK few years back. I believe the lighter (22 ton) SH-1 is more suitable for those areas than 28 ton T5-52 or Nora B-52K1. Driving a 8x8 truck (with more length than a 6x6 truck) on narrow hilly roads is prone to mishaps.


True. These are primarily meant for Sindh and South Punjab plains however they still are easier to take to the northern areas than the tracked ones and will find good use there was well. SH-1 lacked on a few fronts and both these can fill in that gap effectively and are being looked at with that in mind. However the main application is in south.

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> True. These are primarily meant for Sindh and South Punjab plains however they still are easier to take to the northern areas than the tracked ones and will find good use there was well. SH-1 lacked on a few fronts and both these can fill in that gap effectively and are being looked at with that in mind. However the main application is in south.



A few regiments may be put to service in somewhat less hilly areas in AJK like Mirpur, Muzaffarabad, etc but I don't see them going to GB (which has horrible terrain, poor roads). One Nora B-52 SPH (K1 or the armoured K-I variant) was in Pakistan in the first half of 2015 (May or June) and was extensively trialed. I believe it has lagged in some conditions. That is the reason PA sent RFI on T5-52 to Denel this year. And now Denel Group Acting CEO Zwelakhe Ntshepe is claiming it has performed very well.

I expect a contract by the end of 2016.

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## fatman17

India has a lot of influence on Denel /RSA.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A few regiments may be put to service in somewhat less hilly areas in AJK like Mirpur, Muzaffarabad, etc but I don't see them going to GB (which has horrible terrain, poor roads). One Nora B-52 SPH (K1 or the armoured K-I variant) was in Pakistan in the first half of 2015 (May or June) and was extensively trialed. I believe it has lagged in some conditions. That is the reason PA sent RFI on T5-52 to Denel this year. And now Denel Group Acting CEO Zwelakhe Ntshepe is claiming it has performed very well.
> 
> I expect a contract by the end of 2016.


It was not here alone in 2015 and ALL of them were sent back. Some have returned back and are under evaluation again. It is not the right time to talk about which ones or where or other details like that. However now that you mentioned 2015 trials i can confirm that those are over, no gun was selected and now there are some guns back in Pakistan for further evaluation after some modifications and improvements were made.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> India has a lot of influence on Denel /RSA.



But they are still helping us out


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> But they are still helping us out



Anything that doesn't offend the Indians


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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> But they are still helping us out


We can lot of weapons from South Africa from Artillery to MRAP and Sniper Guns and yes India has influence but not to forget Denel was banned by India so Indian influence is thing of past.


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> We can lot of weapons from South Africa from Artillery to MRAP and Sniper Guns and yes India has influence but not to forget Denel was banned by India so Indian influence is thing of past.



Ban is removed bcuz too much money had to be made.

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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> But they are still helping us out


And i heard that a private organization from our side is involved in some business as well. Bringing some goodies for PA



Zarvan said:


> We can lot of weapons from South Africa from Artillery to MRAP and Sniper Guns and yes India has influence but not to forget Denel was banned by India so Indian influence is thing of past.


No dear, the ban was removed a couple of years back.


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## Gryphon

Any news about towed light howitzers (like Norinco AH4) ??

@Arsalan


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> And i heard that a private organization from our side is involved in some business as well. Bringing some goodies for PA
> 
> 
> No dear, the ban was removed a couple of years back.


To be honest, South Africa doesn't have a single thing India can't get from elsewhere, especially Israel or the West. The only reason why they'd butt in is to basically interdict Pakistan's efforts. However, their last attempt at the Indian market did not turn out well, so there are people in the industry who will think twice about cutting Pakistan out. That still doesn't change the need for Pakistan to work doubly or triply hard to form key relationships in the South African defence industry. Unfortunately, proactive foreign policy work isn't our forte.

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## Signalian

*Transportation of 130mm Artillery Guns by Helicopters to Shaqma & Olding using combination of Lama and Mi-17*


The next phase after successful trials of high altitude Mi-17 landings was the transportation of 130mm arty guns to Shaqma and Olding Sectors from Skardu. 

Lt. Col Tughral Bashir Commanding Officer 27 Squadron along with his team of pilots, Maj Nasir Iftikhar and Capt Naeem Masood Khan reached Skardu on 26 July 1996. At Shaqma the ground was descending all along after crossing Bari La at 16000 feet density altitude over Deosai into a narrow valley. Helicopter approach had to be terminated on a critically located helipad with no room to go-around. This place is known as Fultukush. There was a stream of water just short of helipad which would take away the ground cushion as well. Where as at Olding the ground was rising with terraces every 25 to 30 feet. Two terraces were cut and made one making it big enough for MI- 17 helicopter to land. 

It indeed was a challenging task, Guns were disassembled and the heaviest part was the barrel which had to be transported in one piece of course. And it had to be put inside the cargo compartment in absence of sling equipment. The weight calculations necessitated that least quantity of fuel with no reserve be filled in the fuel tanks and even the crew chief and the ladder to climb into and come out of the helicopter be left behind. When barrel including breach block was adjusted inside the cargo compartment the barrel remained 6 feet out from rear cargo door. 

Lama pilots were tasked to give the wind direction before descending from Deosai. Because without favorable wind landing was not possible and MI- 17 could not climb out of valley with the load of barrel once descend had been initiated. With all the factors are calculated and taken care of three 130mm guns were flown to Hassan Gun Position from 27 July to 8 August 1996 in eight sorties. After this preparations were made to fly remaining three guns to Olding Sector.

After successful gun transportation by helicopter in Shaqma sector FCNA planned to shift more artillery guns to different sectors. The weight of one gun was approximately 7500 kilograms. 

MI- 17s proved equal to the task and *1x 57mm, 15 x 105mm and 43 x 130mm guns along with crew and ammunition, defence stores, troops, overhead protection, engineers stores* were successfully transported to the desired locations.

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## Gryphon

FCNA is inadequate for a large area like GB. If a war breaks out, how will it hold against three divisions of IA attacking from Turtuk , Skardu-Kargil and Minimarg-Gurez sectors ? Even air support from Skardu Airfield and possibly Gilgit Airport will prove ineffective as IA will have much more air support from Leh, Kargil, Srinagar and Awantipur Airbases. The result will be rapid loss of territory in GB. So, a new Corps for PA in GB (with several light artillery battalions) is required as soon as possible.

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## Gryphon

Sarge said:


> *Transportation of 130mm Artillery Guns by Helicopters to Shaqma & Olding using combination of Lama and Mi-17*
> 
> 
> The next phase after successful trials of high altitude Mi-17 landings was the transportation of 130mm arty guns to Shaqma and Olding Sectors from Skardu.
> 
> Lt. Col Tughral Bashir Commanding Officer 27 Squadron along with his team of pilots, Maj Nasir Iftikhar and Capt Naeem Masood Khan reached Skardu on 26 July 1996. At Shaqma the ground was descending all along after crossing Bari La at 16000 feet density altitude over Deosai into a narrow valley. Helicopter approach had to be terminated on a critically located helipad with no room to go-around. This place is known as Fultukush. There was a stream of water just short of helipad which would take away the ground cushion as well. Where as at Olding the ground was rising with terraces every 25 to 30 feet. Two terraces were cut and made one making it big enough for MI- 17 helicopter to land.
> 
> It indeed was a challenging task, Guns were disassembled and the heaviest part was the barrel which had to be transported in one piece of course. And it had to be put inside the cargo compartment in absence of sling equipment. The weight calculations necessitated that least quantity of fuel with no reserve be filled in the fuel tanks and even the crew chief and the ladder to climb into and come out of the helicopter be left behind. When barrel including breach block was adjusted inside the cargo compartment the barrel remained 6 feet out from rear cargo door.
> 
> Lama pilots were tasked to give the wind direction before descending from Deosai. Because without favorable wind landing was not possible and MI- 17 could not climb out of valley with the load of barrel once descend had been initiated. With all the factors are calculated and taken care of three 130mm guns were flown to Hassan Gun Position from 27 July to 8 August 1996 in eight sorties. After this preparations were made to fly remaining three guns to Olding Sector.
> 
> After successful gun transportation by helicopter in Shaqma sector FCNA planned to shift more artillery guns to different sectors. The weight of one gun was approximately 7500 kilograms.
> 
> MI- 17s proved equal to the task and *1x 57mm, 15 x 105mm and 43 x 130mm guns along with crew and ammunition, defence stores, troops, overhead protection, engineers stores* were successfully transported to the desired locations.



Too much time-consuming process... Light howitzers like LEO can be quickly deployed at forward locations using Mi-17 attached with sling equipment. 

For 155 mm guns like AH4, heavy transport choppers are needed. Russia can sell Pakistan one such type if PA decides to go for 155 mm light towed guns.

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## Signalian

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> FCNA is inadequate for a large area like GB. If a war breaks out, how will it hold against three divisions of IA attacking from Turtuk , Skardu-Kargil and Minimarg-Gurez sectors ? Even air support from Skardu Airfield and possibly Gilgit Airport will prove ineffective as IA will have much more air support from Leh, Kargil, Srinagar and Awantipur Airbases. The result will be rapid loss of territory in GB. So, a new Corps for PA in GB (with several light artillery battalions) is required as soon as possible.



Put GB scouts in defensive positions between regulars. Give heavy weapons like RR, RL's, Mortars, SAM's to hold ground through fire power, making up for inadequate man power. A stop gap till the plan for raising a new formation is made.

Chaklala and Peshawar airbases/airport also cater for AJK sector.

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## Gryphon

Sarge said:


> Put GB scouts in defensive positions between regulars. Give heavy weapons like RR, RL's, Mortars, SAM's to hold ground through fire power, making up for inadequate man power. A stop gap till the plan for raising a new formation is made.
> 
> Chaklala and Peshawar airbases/airport also cater for AJK sector.



Paramilitary GB Scouts has three wings only, i.e. roughly 2400 men. So, GB Scouts as a reinforcement would help very little.

Last year, a new division of PA namely Special Security Division (SSD) with 9 army battalions was being raised with its HQ at Chilas in GB (not far away from Minimarg Sector).Will SSD have an area of responsibility or it is for CPEC security only ??


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## Signalian

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Paramilitary GB Scouts has three wings only, i.e. roughly 2400 men. So, GB Scouts as a reinforcement would help very little.
> 
> Last year, a new division of PA namely Special Security Division (SSD) with 9 army battalions was being raised with its HQ in Chilas in GB (not far away from Minimarg Sector).Will it have any area of responsibility ??


CPEC routes.


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## fatman17

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Paramilitary GB Scouts has three wings only, i.e. roughly 2400 men. So, GB Scouts as a reinforcement would help very little.
> 
> Last year, a new division of PA namely Special Security Division (SSD) with 9 army battalions was being raised with its HQ at Chilas in GB (not far away from Minimarg Sector).Will SSD have an area of responsibility or it is for CPEC security only ??



SSD is for nuclear sites and now CPEC infrastructure.


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## fatman17

M109A7


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## Michael Corleone

Noice. Why don't bd get something like this.


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> M109A7


ours are A5.

A7 is a major upgrade.

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## Gryphon

Mohammed Khaled said:


> Noice. Why don't bd get something like this.



BD can get Dhanush and Tata gun.

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> You can't make a 1996 Honda Civic into 2016 one no matter How much you upgrade it. And these Artillery Guns were last produced in 1955. They are way way way old. Upgrading them won't do much



@Zarvan 

I cant agree with your argument, it does not clear anything, thats not a rational argument in the context of military view, try to explain in a detailed Reply why we should retire ca. 500-600 Type-59IIM 130mm Artillery Guns. What are the tactical disadvantegs/advantages, where we will get the reseurces etc. Can you ? Do you know where and how many Type-59 130mm Guns are actually in service with Pakistan Army, do you know the specific role ? Half of our Artillery infrastructure is build for this guns, half of our crews are trained for this guns, many parts for the Type-59 130mm maintaince are now made in Pakistan or can be important for a low price from China. It has a exelent service battle history a la Kargil and wars in FATA and KPK... ..

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## Inception-06

Whats that ? a Rockte launcher ? 122mm ? @Sarge @DESERT FIGHTER

@Zarvan checkt it out this are rare pictures of our Military History ! Study it carefully.


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## Inception-06

and here is one more, both pictures are from the Kargil war 1999,It did took me 3 hours to finde all that stuff ^^:





This are interesting things and tactics which we used during Kargil war 1999.

@Sarge @DESERT FIGHTER






*GRAD-P - Calibre 122 mm*
*Portable Tripod-mounted Rocket Launcher*
GRAD-P Light portable rocket system is the complete system comprises a standard BM-21 Grad monotube single-round man-portable launcher (it can be reloaded and used again), a standard-long 9M22U 122 mm high-explosive fragmentation rocket and a fire control panel. This system has been adopted in recent years by various African and Middle-east countries within the last terrorist-groups and various fractions civil wars as well as it is still popular with the paramilitary and guerrilla forces. The system is light-weight and thus highly mobile and can be carried by 2 soldiers after shot for changing position in order to not be detected. It can be also mounted on the pick-ups and other lightly armoured military or paramilitary vehicles. The rocket launcher is loaded from the rear part and is very easy and simple for operation and maintenance. Grad-P system can be used for direct as well as indirect fire against point or surface targets. The system is very reliable and is controlled remotely by the Fire control panel to avoid jeopardy for the operator.

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## HRK

Ulla said:


> and here is one more, both pictures are from the Kargil war 1999,I did took me 3 hours to finde all that stuff ^^:
> View attachment 343636
> 
> 
> This are interesting things and tactics which we used during Kargil war 1999.
> 
> @Sarge @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> 
> View attachment 343642
> 
> *GRAD-P - Calibre 122 mm*
> *Portable Tripod-mounted Rocket Launcher*
> GRAD-P Light portable rocket system is the complete system comprises a standard BM-21 Grad monotube single-round man-portable launcher (it can be reloaded and used again), a standard-long 9M22U 122 mm high-explosive fragmentation rocket and a fire control panel. This system has been adopted in recent years by various African and Middle-east countries within the last terrorist-groups and various fractions civil wars as well as it is still popular with the paramilitary and guerrilla forces. The system is light-weight and thus highly mobile and can be carried by 2 soldiers after shot for changing position in order to not be detected. It can be also mounted on the pick-ups and other lightly armoured military or paramilitary vehicles. The rocket launcher is loaded from the rear part and is very easy and simple for operation and maintenance. Grad-P system can be used for direct as well as indirect fire against point or surface targets. The system is very reliable and is controlled remotely by the Fire control panel to avoid jeopardy for the operator.



If I am not wrong the idea for this was the first coined by ISI Afghan desk during Afghan Jihad .... & first such system was made available to us by Chinese ....

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> If I am not wrong the idea for this was the first coined by ISI Afghan desk during Afghan Jihad .... & first such system was made available to us by Chinese ....






HRK said:


> If I am not wrong the idea for this was the first coined by ISI Afghan desk during Afghan Jihad .... & first such system was made available to us by Chinese ....



And the tactical advantage in Kargil was ?

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## HRK

Ulla said:


> And the tactical advantage in Kargil was ?



1- Mobility
2- Force Multiplication 
3- Range (at that time it was around 20-30 Km not quit sure about that)

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## Army research

HRK said:


> 1- Mobility
> 2- Force Multiplication
> 3- Range (at that time it was around 20-30 Km not quit sure about that)





Ulla said:


> And the tactical advantage in Kargil was ?


Also in kargil artillery could not be used so this filled the role

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## Evil Genius

nice thread bro


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sarge said:


> ours are A5.
> 
> A7 is a major upgrade.



SP gunners would love that.

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## Army research

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> SP gunners would love that.


Your damn right sir


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## Gryphon

*Pakistan ordered PLZ-45 Self-Propelled Howitzers, Book claims*
*



*
_PLZ-45 SPH_

Pakistan has ordered an undisclosed number of the Chinese PLZ-45 self propelled howitzers, author *Muhamad S. Olimat* has reported in his book _China and the Middle East Since World War II: A Bilateral Approach.
_
In early 2014, there were media reports which mentioned sale of PLZ-45 howitzers to many countries including Pakistan.


@Irfan Baloch @balixd @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Quwa @Arsalan @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Areesh @fatman17 @Zarvan @Horus @monitor @Sarge @Ulla @Manticore

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Pakistan ordered PLZ-45 Self-Propelled Howitzers, Book claims*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _PLZ-45 SPH_
> 
> Pakistan has ordered an undisclosed number of the Chinese PLZ-45 self propelled howitzers, author *Muhamad S. Olimat* has reported in his book _China and the Middle East Since World War II: A Bilateral Approach.
> _
> In early 2014, there were media reports which mentioned sale of PLZ-45 howitzers to many countries including Pakistan.
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Quwa @Arsalan @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Areesh @fatman17 @Zarvan @Horus @monitor @Sarge @Ulla @Manticore



I seriously doubt this claim but you never know so @Dazzler and @DESERT FIGHTER you guys are needed here

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/plz05.htm

This one is improved version I hope if we decide we go for this one although I prefer Turkish Artillery Gun over this Chinese one

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Could just be a small order for evaluation purposes.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Could just be a small order for evaluation purposes.



There were rumours in 2013 that PA had conducted trials of PLZ-45 as well as PLZ-52. And PLZ-45 was selected.


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Pakistan ordered PLZ-45 Self-Propelled Howitzers, Book claims*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _PLZ-45 SPH_
> 
> Pakistan has ordered an undisclosed number of the Chinese PLZ-45 self propelled howitzers, author *Muhamad S. Olimat* has reported in his book _China and the Middle East Since World War II: A Bilateral Approach.
> _
> In early 2014, there were media reports which mentioned sale of PLZ-45 howitzers to many countries including Pakistan.
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Quwa @Arsalan @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha @Areesh @fatman17 @Zarvan @Horus @monitor @Sarge @Ulla @Manticore


I am not aware of any big order. Perhaps for evaluation purpose. We are looking at wheeled SPH at the moment anyway and i wont be surprised if tracked ones follow...

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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Could just be a small order for evaluation purposes.



we tested and skipped plz45

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## Gryphon

Dazzler said:


> we tested and skipped plz45



Did it fail in the trials? What does PA intend to procure instead ?

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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Did it fail in the trials? What does PA intend to procure instead ?


i heard about g5

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## Signalian

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Did it fail in the trials? What does PA intend to procure instead ?


SH-1

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## Zarvan

Well for evaluation we won't need to order them could take on lease 10 to 12 of them and test them and than decide. If this news is true than we have went for them in good numbers or news is not true.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Did it fail in the trials? What does PA intend to procure instead ?


We are tested few wheeled Artillery Guns from different countries like South Africa and other but I am hoping see Artillery Guns from Sweden or Britain or Germany in Pakistani Arsenal


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## Gryphon

Sarge said:


> SH-1



SH-1 is already in service.

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## Signalian

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> SH-1 is already in service.


Nora B-52

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## fatman17

The book is wrong about plz45


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## Gryphon

Sarge said:


> Nora B-52



Denel T5-52 and Nora are under trials.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Denel T5-52 and Nora are under trials.


T5-52 is here. Nora also arrived back a month or so ago. 
That is both in wheeled SPH category. We may look at tracked ones as well.

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## princefaisal

South Korean K9 is also good and should be considered.


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## Photon

princefaisal said:


> South Korean K9 is also good and should be considered.



Won't be , India has already ordered them.


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## pzfz

princefaisal said:


> South Korean K9 is also good and should be considered.


 Basically already tested, same gun as the Turkish firtina sph.


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## princefaisal

pzfz said:


> Basically already tested, same gun as the Turkish firtina sph.


Then whats the problem with Turkish firtina sph?


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## Gryphon

It does not appear PA is looking for a new tracked SP howitzer. Denel T5-52 and Nora B-52 are under trials. We may hear more about the program at IDEAS 2016.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> T5-52 is here. Nora also arrived back a month or so ago.
> That is both in wheeled SPH category. We may look at tracked ones as well.


UK company is also working on wheeled Artillery Gun. Are there any chances we would test those also Swedish one ?

*Top 10 Truck-Mounted Howitzers*


Truck-mounted howitzers are artillery systems, based on wheeled rather than tracked chassis. Recently there is a trend to obtain truck-mounted howitzers opposed to traditional tracked artillery systems. Typically truck-mounted howitzers are less expensive to produce and to maintain, but as capable as tracked artillery systems. Yet still truck-mounted howitzers are much more mobile than towed howitzers. These artillery systems are used as combat support weapons. Normally they provide indirect fire, however, if needed, they also have direct-fire capability. Some modern self-propelled howitzers have armored cabs. In modern combat these artillery systems often exploit their mobility for shoot-and-scoot type attacks in order to avoid counter-battery fire.

So which is the best truck-mounted howitzer in the world? Which is the most advanced, capable and effective truck-mounted howitzer? This Top 10 analysis is based on firepower, rate of fire, ammunition load, deployment and redeployment time, protection, and some other factors.

This list only includes truck-mounted howitzers, that are currently in service. It does not include artillery systems that are under development or at the prototype stage. Also it does not include artillery systems, that received no production orders.

Currently top 10 truck-mounted howitzers in the world are these:











Nr.1 Archer (Sweden)



The Archer is a Swedish next-generation self-propelled howitzer. Development of this artillery system began in 2003. First Archer's were delivered to the Swedish Army in 2013.

The Archer has a rapid, automatic loading system. The whole artillery system is operated remotely, so there is no need for the crew to leave an armored cabin. There is a high degree of automation.

Maximum range of fire is 30 km with ordinary projectile and 40 km with rocket-assisted projectile. The Archer also fires Excalibur precision guided extended range projectiles with a maximum range of 60 km. It is also compatible with Bonus precision guided projectiles.

Maximum rate of fire of 8 - 9 rounds per minute. The Archer is capable of multiple-round simultaneous impact firing. It fires up to 6 rounds in 30 seconds, each in different trajectories, so that all of the shells arrive on target at the same time. The Archer transports 20 rounds.

It takes only 30 seconds to stop and be ready for firing. Out of action time is also as short as 30 seconds. Brief redeployment time allows to avoid counter-battery fire.

This artillery system is mounted on the commercially available Volvo A30D 6x6 articulated hauler chassis. It looses in terms of cross-country mobility to tracked vehicles. It is one of the most advanced and capable truck-mounted howitzers.

Each Archer truck-mounted howitzer is supported by an associated ammunition re-supply vehicle. Reloading time is up to 8 minutes. If necessary the gun can be loaded by re-supply personnel alone. The Archer is also assigned with one support (maintenance) vehicle per unit. It conducts refueling and simple maintenance.










Nr.2 G6 Rhino (South Africa)



Even though the G6 Rhino is an old design, it is still a very successful artillery system. First prototype was built in 1981. This artillery system saw action in Angola, even before it was mass produced. It entered service with the South African National Defense Forces in 1988. A number of these self-propelled howitzers were exported to United Arab Emirates and Oman.

The G6 Rhino was designed to meet a South African National Defense Forces requirement. A 6x6 wheeled chassis was preferred over tracked one due to their terrain. The G6 uses a specially-developed wheeled chassis that is well armored. Its front arc provides protection against 20 mm rounds. All-round protection is against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. This vehicle is well protected against landmines. It is also fitted with automatic fire suppression system.

This artillery system is fitted with a 155 mm/L45 gun-howitzer, developed from the G5 field gun. It is completed with a semi-automatic ammunition loading system. The G6 Rhino is compatible with all NATO 155 mm ammunition. Maximum range of fire is 30 km with standard HE-FRAG projectile and 39 km with rocket-assisted. It also fires newly developed velocity enhanced long range projectiles with a maximum range of 50 km. Maximum rate of fire is 4 rounds per minute. A total of 47 rounds are carried.

Out of action time is as short as 30 seconds. It allows to exploit hit-and-run tactics and avoid counter-battery fire.

This artillery system is operated by a crew of five. All crew members operate under complete armor protection.

The G6 Rhino might not be the most modern in terms of technology, but it is superior to most other wheeled self-propelled howitzers both in terms of firepower and protection.










Nr.3 Zuzana (Slovakia)



The Zuzana is a Slovak 155 mm NATO compatible version of the DANA. It has improved fire control system and some other improvements. The first prototype was built in 1995. This artillery system has been adopted by Slovakia in 1998. As of 2015 Slovak Army operates 16 of these systems. This artillery system is also in service with Cyprus (12).

The Zuzana is armed with a turret-mounted 155 mm/L45 gun-howitzer. This gun is compatible with all standard NATO ammunition. Range of fire depends on projectile and charge combination.Maximum range of fire is 40 km with rocket-assisted shells.

The gun is mounted externally between two separated compartments of the turret. In this way the crew is completely isolated from potentially dangerous gun and autoloader mechanisms and is protected from the powder gasses generated during firing. The gun is fitted with an autoloader, so rounds are fed automatically. The autoloader loads shells and charges at any elevation. A total of 40 rounds are carried by this artillery system. This artillery system can automatically launch 6 rounds within the first minute, or 30 rounds within 6 minutes. Manual rate of fire is reduced to 2 rounds per minute. Sustained rate of fire is around 1.5 rounds per minute.

This artillery system has an automatic gun-laying mode, when the firing data is calculated by the onboard computer and the gun is automatically laid on the target. Developers claim that this system is capable of Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact Firing (MRSI). It can launch a couple of projectiles at different trajectories in order for them to hit the target simultaneously.

This artillery system uses a special 8x8 chassis developed by Tatra. It uses many mechanical components of the Tatra T815 Koloss heavy high mobility truck.










Nr.4 NORA B-52 (Serbia)



The NORA B-52 is a Serbian self-propelled artillery system. It was developed to replace older artillery equipment in service with Serbian Army. First batch of 12 artillery systems was delivered in 2007. It has been exported to Bangladesh (18), Myanmar (30), and Kenya (30).

The NORA B-52 is fitted with 155 mm/L52 gun-howitzer. It is a further development of the Yugoslavian M84 NORA A field howitzer. It fires all standard NATO 155 mm ammunition. It is fitted with an automatic gun loader enabling rate of fire of 6 rounds per minute. Vehicle carries a total of 36 rounds. Autoloader holds 12 rounds. Maximum firing range is 20 km with ordinary projectile and 41 km with rocket-assisted projectile.

First versions of the NORA B-52 were mounted on Serbian FAP 2832 trucks. However improved production versions were mounted on the Russian KamAZ 8x8 trucks chassis.

There is also an armored version of this artillery system. Vehicle provides the crew protection against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. There is also an NBC protection system for the crew. Vehicle withstands blasts equivalent to 6 kg of TNT anywhere under the hull.










Nr.5 ATMOS (Israel)



The ATMOS (Autonomous Truck MOunted howitzer System) self-propelled gun-howitzer was developed by Soltam of Israel as a private venture. It was aimed mainly at export customers. Official details on this artillery system were released in 2001. In 2003 an undisclosed export customer ordered an undisclosed batch of these artillery systems. In 2013 deliveries commenced to Thailand.

The ATMOS is armed with a 155 mm/L52 gun-howitzer. It was developed from the Soltam ATHOS 2052 towed howitzer. This artillery system is fitted with a load assisting system. It is compatible with all standard 155 mm NATO ammunition. Maximum range of fire is 30 km with standard HE projectile and 41 km with rocket assisted projectile. Vehicle carries a total of 32 projectiles and associated charges. Rate of fire is between 4 and 9 rounds per minute.

The ATMOS is also proposed with other guns, including a shorter Soltam 155 mm/L39 and 155 mm/L45 guns. This artillery system can also be fitted with a Soviet M-46 130 mm field gun.

Advanced fire control system of the ATMOS receives target information from forward observers. It includes navigation and aiming systems and ballistic computer.

Vehicle is normally operated by a crew of four, including two loaders. Cab of the ATMOS is armored and protects the crew during travelling from small arms fire and artillery shell splinters.

The ATMOS is based on a Tatra T815 6x6 truck chassis.










Nr.6 Caesar (France)



The Caesar is a French truck-mounted howitzer. It was developed by GIAT to meet the fire support requirements of rapid deployment forces. The main concept behind the Caesar was to mount a howitzer on an army truck, rather than to tow it. This artillery system is in service with France. It has been exported to Saudi Arabia and Thailand.

The Caesar evolved from the ageing F3 self-propelled howitzer, based on the AMX-13 light tank chassis. It is armed with a 155 mm/L52 gun-howitzer, that has a semi-automatic ammunition loading system. It fires all standard NATO 155 mm ammunition, including ordinary and rocket-assisted HE-FRAG rounds, cargo rounds with anti-tank or fragmentation bomblets, smoke and illumination projectiles. Maximum range of fire with rocket-assisted projectile is 42 km. It is also capable of firing Bonus precision-guided anti-tank munitions with a range of 34 km. Maximum rate of fire is 6 rounds per minute. Vehicle carries only 18 rounds and associated charges.

The Caesar can be set into and out of action in less than one minute. Brief redeployment time allows to avoid counter-battery fire. Vehicle can be also used on shoot-and-scoot missions.

This artillery system is operated by a crew of 6. The Caesar has an armored cab which protects the crew during traveling. However once in operation the gun crew has got no protection.

Each Caesar truck-mounted howitzer is supported by an associated ammunition supply vehicle, that is also based on a 6x6 truck chassis.

The Caesar is fully air transportable and can be airlifted by the C-130 Hercules or A400Mtransport aircraft.










Nr.7 SH-1 (China)



The SH-1 155 mm truck-mounted howitzer was developed in China. It was first publicly revealed in 2007. It is a capable design. However it was not adopted by the Chinese armed forces. The SH-1 has been exported to Pakistan, and Myanmar.

The SH1 is armed with a 155 mm/L52 howitzer. It is compatible with all standard 155 mm NATO ammunition, as well as ammunition developed by NORINCO. Claimed maximum range of fire is 53 km which was achieved with a rocket assisted V-LAP projectile. This artillery system is able to use Chinese precision guided munitions, based on the Russian Krasnopol technology.

Ammunition box of the SH-1 artillery system houses 25 rounds of seven different types and their modular charges.

The SH1 is fitted with a computerized fire control system, navigation, positioning and targeting systems. Vehicle receives target information from a battery command post vehicle.

Vehicle has a crew of five. In traveling order an armored cab provides protection against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. However once in operation the gun crew has got no protection.










Nr.8 DANA (Czechoslovakia)



The DANA 152 mm artillery system was developed in the former Czechoslovakia. It was designed as an alternative for the Soviet 2S3 Akatsiya. Unlike many other howitzers of that period the DANA is based on a wheeled chassis. Its production commenced in 1981 and ceased in 1994 with over 750 units built. Currently it is in service with Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland and Libya.

The DANA is armed with a turret-mounted 152 mm/L39 gun-howitzer. It fires all standard Soviet and indigenous 152 mm rounds. Czech army currently uses three main types of ammunition, high-explosive rounds with a maximum range of 18 km, improved shape high-explosive with a maximum range of 20 km, and high-explosive anti-tank rounds for direct fire at armored targets. The DANA carries 60 rounds. Around 40 rounds are stored in the autoloader and are fed automatically.

It is worth mentioning that the DANA's autoloader was unique for its time. It is able to load shell and cartridge in any elevation. This feature is considered as standard nowadays and DANA was one of the first artillery systems with such loader in service.

All crew members of the DANA operate under complete armor protection.

This artillery system uses an 8x8 armored chassis, that is based around automotive components of the Tatra T815 Koloss heavy high mobility truck. Czechoslovakia preferred a wheeled chassis, because it was less expensive to build and to maintain comparing with a tracked chassis.


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## Zarvan

Nr.9 Bereg (Russia)



The A-222 or Bereg is a Russian coastal defense artillery system. It was developed in the late 1980s. It was developed as a supplement to mobile costal defense missile systems. A small number of these artillery system is currently in service with Russia. First systems were delivered in 2003. The Bereg is being proposed for export, however as of 2015 it received no orders from other countries.

The main mission of this artillery system is to engage surface ships and prevent over-the-beach landings of enemy forces. It can also engage small-size fast moving naval targets, such as small landing ships, fast attack craft and air-cushioned vessels at a range of up to 20 km. It can also engage ground targets.

The Bereg is armed with a 130 mm/L54 gun. The gun has a load-assisting system. The Bereg fires HE-FRAG, armor-piercing and illumination rounds. It is also compatible with laser-guided rounds, however this feature is proposed as an option. Maximum range of fire is 27 km. Maximum rate of fire is up to 10 rounds per minute. A total of 40 rounds are carried.

This artillery system is operated by a crew of 8.

The Bereg is based on a MAZ-543M 8x8 high-mobility chassis. It has great cross-country performance.










Nr.10 Semser (Israel / Kazakhstan)



The Semser self-propelled 122 mm howitzer was developed by Soltam of Israel to meet requirements of the Kazakhstan Ministry of Defense. This artillery system is manufactured in Kazakhstan by Kazakh companies. It was adopted in 2008.

This artillery system is armed with a 122 mm/L38 howitzer, that is a modified variant of the D-30 towed howitzer. The D-30 was produced in large numbers by the former Soviet Union, and Kazakhstan has plenty of 122 mm ammunition in storage. It was one of the reasons, why a 122 mm caliber was selected over Russian 152 mm or NATO 155 mm. However maximum range of fire is only 15.3 km.

The Semser has an integrated automated command and control system, provided by Soltam and Elbit.

This artillery system is based on KamAZ-6350 8x8 heavy truck chassis.

However s me Kazakh sources claim that design of the Semser appeared to be unsuccessful and that the system has many shortcomings.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/top_10_truck_mounted_howitzers.htm


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> UK company is also working on wheeled Artillery Gun. Are there any chances we would test those also Swedish one ?


\
HIGHLY unlikely!


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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> \
> HIGHLY unlikely!



PLZ-52 is what PA will likely test in the future. It is much advanced than PLZ-45.

72 Panter and 90 SH-1 were acquired by PA according to SIPRI. But, there is no pic/official statement/highly reliable media report to confirm if they are operational.


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> PLZ-52 is what PA will likely test in the future. It is much advanced than PLZ-45.
> 
> 72 Panter and 90 SH-1 were acquired by PA according to SIPRI. But, there is no pic/official statement/highly reliable media report to confirm if they are operational.


SH-1 got the nod of approval, Panter not so well received. 

PLZ-45 was looked at just for the sake of looking really. PLZ-52 MIGHT be a more serious prospect but that is for the future. Currently it is all about wheeled SPH.


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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> SH-1 got the nod of approval, Panter not so well received.
> 
> PLZ-45 was looked at just for the sake of looking really. PLZ-52 MIGHT be a more serious prospect but that is for the future. Currently it is all about wheeled SPH.


what are deficiencies in pantar?


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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> SH-1 got the nod of approval, Panter not so well received.



If Norinco SH-1 was selected and around 90 howitzers purchased (according to media reports), why not go for additional units (considering some unconfirmed reports that it was tested in GB/AJK as well as in Sindh/South Punjab). Why is PA testing Denel T5-52 & Nora B-52 ??

PA acquired 72 Panter towed howitzers (according to SIPRI). It weighs 18 t. Since PA already has a number of towed howitzers in service, I believe they were purchased to equip new artillery regiments. But I have not heard about PA being unsatisfied with Panter's.

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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> what are deficiencies in pantar?


Still not "officially inducted" and the units with the guns are reportedly "not satisfied" The details are not made public as well so i will stick to that.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> If Norinco SH-1 was selected and around 90 howitzers purchased (according to media reports), why not go for additional units (considering some unconfirmed reports that it was tested in GB/AJK as well as in Sindh/South Punjab). Why is PA testing Denel T5-52 & Nora B-52 ??


That is a mystery to me too. I mean, it is being said that SH-1 users are happy with the gun performance and thus we should have opted for more in the same but still we are looking at other options. The only reason i can think of is an enhanced MRSI capability of both T5-52 and Nora! MRSI will going to be the lifeline, the feature that will keep artillery relevant in the future as well and i wont be surprised if PA is pursuing that capability. 



> PA acquired 72 Panter towed howitzers (according to SIPRI). It weighs 18 t. Since PA already has a number of towed howitzers in service, I believe they were purchased to equip new artillery regiments. But I have not heard about PA being unsatisfied with Panter's.


Well, consider yourself "informed" now

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Still not "officially inducted" and the units with the guns are reportedly "not satisfied" The details are not made public as well so i will stick to that.
> 
> 
> That is a mystery to me too. I mean, it is being said that SH-1 users are happy with the gun performance and thus we should have opted for more in the same but still we are looking at other options. The only reason i can think of is an enhanced MRSI capability of both T5-52 and Nora! MRSI will going to be the lifeline, the feature that will keep artillery relevant in the future as well and i wont be surprised if PA is pursuing that capability.
> 
> 
> Well, consider yourself "informed" now


mrsi is great capability


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## proka89

After all this time Serbian army is becoming the fourth user of Nora B52. 6 of them will be presented at military parade in Novi Sad tomorrow, and soon after that handed over to Serbian army.

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## Gryphon

proka89 said:


> After all this time Serbian army is becoming the fourth user of Nora B52. 6 of them will be presented at military parade in Novi Sad tomorrow, and soon after that handed over to Serbian army.



Is this the K1 variant ??


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## MystryMan

Arsalan said:


> Still not "officially inducted" and the units with the guns are reportedly "not satisfied" The details are not made public as well so i will stick to that.
> 
> 
> That is a mystery to me too. I mean, it is being said that SH-1 users are happy with the gun performance and thus we should have opted for more in the same but still we are looking at other options. The only reason i can think of is an enhanced MRSI capability of both T5-52 and Nora! MRSI will going to be the lifeline, the feature that will keep artillery relevant in the future as well and i wont be surprised if PA is pursuing that capability.
> 
> 
> Well, consider yourself "informed" now



IIRC, I read somewhere that Turks were developing a new version of PANTER with reduced weight and other enhancements. Can this be the reason of PA holding the current inventory at 72 and waiting on the new improved version?

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## Army research

Any chance , any that of an indigenous cannon like the truck mounted one shown in ideas 2002 I think , what about ideas 2016 could there be any news


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## proka89

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Is this the K1 variant ??



Not sure what is the full name of this version but it's similar to K1 version that was sold to Bangladesh.


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## Gryphon

proka89 said:


> Not sure what is the full name of this version but it's similar to K1 version that was sold to Bangladesh.



Any update in Serbian media on Pakistan trials of Nora ??


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## proka89

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Any update in Serbian media on Pakistan trials of Nora ??


Not that i know of.


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## Arsalan

MystryMan said:


> IIRC, I read somewhere that Turks were developing a new version of PANTER with reduced weight and other enhancements. Can this be the reason of PA holding the current inventory at 72 and waiting on the new improved version?


Not happy with it is what i have been told.



Army research said:


> Any chance , any that of an indigenous cannon like the truck mounted one shown in ideas 2002 I think , what about ideas 2016 could there be any news


Which one are you talking about? An indigenous system for SPH  Can you share that pic from IDEAS 2002? I think there is some confusion.

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## Army research

Arsalan said:


> Not happy with it is what i have been told.
> 
> 
> Which one are you talking about? An indigenous system for SPH  Can you share that pic from IDEAS 2002? I think there is some confusion.


Can't really member saw the pic some where over here


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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> Can't really member saw the pic some where over here


It must be some foreign system. Someone mixed/confused it.


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## Army research

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-army-to-preempt-indias-cold-start-doctrine.258666/page-3
The multi launcher anti tank vehicle in service ?


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-army-to-preempt-indias-cold-start-doctrine.258666/page-3
> The multi launcher anti tank vehicle in service ?



Which one?


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## Army research

TaimiKhan said:


> Which one?


Scroll down the page A little



TaimiKhan said:


> Which one?


http://s223.photobucket.com/user/susorail/media/M-901ITV/M901ITVjl1415.jpg.html?sort=3&o=18


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> Scroll down the page A little
> 
> http://s223.photobucket.com/user/susorail/media/M-901ITV/M901ITVjl1415.jpg.html?sort=3&o=18



Yes limited numbers are in service. I think 2 regiments or a single regiment.

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## Army research

TaimiKhan said:


> Yes limited numbers are in service. I think 2 regiments or a single regiment.


Nice thanks sir what missles hj8 or other ?


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## TaimiKhan

Army research said:


> Nice thanks sir what missles hj8 or other ?



TOW missiles only.

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## Sulman Badshah

a Video by CASC...

Described A100/200/300 munitions includes

> Cluster Warhead 
>Penetration blast warhead 
>Fragmentation blast warhead 
>Blast warhead






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1214051825342382

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Army research said:


> Nice thanks sir what missles hj8 or other ?



Barq Laser guided ATGM.. used by Burraq UCAV.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

Airshow China 2016: NORINCO introduces new lightweight SPH

Christopher F Foss, Zhuhai - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

04 November 2016

The CS/SH4 SPH leverages elements of the Type 96 howitzer. Source: Christopher F Foss

China North Industries' (NORINCO's) China South Division has developed and tested a new self-propelled howitzer (SPH), although full technical details have yet to be revealed.

The CS/SH4 lightweight 122 mm system consists of a cross-country (4x4) chassis with a fully protected cab at the front and the 122 mm armament mounted at the rear.

While in the travelling configuration the 122 mm weapon is traversed to the front and lowered into the horizontal position so that is rests within the upper part of the cab.

When deployed in the firing position the complete 122 mm weapon - with its distinctive slotted muzzle brake - is moved to the rear hydraulically so that the baseplate rests on the ground. On either side of the baseplate are two stabilisers that are extended to provide a more stable firing platform.

The cross-country chassis is provided with a central tyre-inflation system and on either side of the platform are stowage boxes for ammunition.

While the original Chinese 122 mm Type 96 howitzer had standard optical direct and indirect sights fitted, the CS/SH4 may have some elements of a navigation and gun laying system, but traverse and elevation are still manual.

Assuming that the ballistics are the same as the baseline 122 mm Type 96 towed howitzer, maximum range firing a standard high-explosive projectile is 15.3 km but this can be increased to 18 km with a special charge.

NORINCO are also marketing a 122 mm extended range full-bore hollow base (ERFB HB) projectile with a maximum range of 18 km as well as an ERFB Base Bleed (ERFB BB) type that increases its range to 21 m.

The latest 122 mm round to be revealed by NORINCO is a 122 mm BB round with rocket assist (BB RA), which gives a maximum range of 27 km but with a potential loss of accuracy.

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## ZedZeeshan

Sulman Badshah said:


> a Video by CASC...
> 
> Described A100/200/300 munitions includes
> 
> > Cluster Warhead
> >Penetration blast warhead
> >Fragmentation blast warhead
> >Blast warhead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1214051825342382


how many of these systems Pakistan has..???


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 349501
> Land Platforms
> 
> Airshow China 2016: NORINCO introduces new lightweight SPH
> 
> Christopher F Foss, Zhuhai - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 04 November 2016
> 
> The CS/SH4 SPH leverages elements of the Type 96 howitzer. Source: Christopher F Foss
> 
> China North Industries' (NORINCO's) China South Division has developed and tested a new self-propelled howitzer (SPH), although full technical details have yet to be revealed.
> 
> The CS/SH4 lightweight 122 mm system consists of a cross-country (4x4) chassis with a fully protected cab at the front and the 122 mm armament mounted at the rear.
> 
> While in the travelling configuration the 122 mm weapon is traversed to the front and lowered into the horizontal position so that is rests within the upper part of the cab.
> 
> When deployed in the firing position the complete 122 mm weapon - with its distinctive slotted muzzle brake - is moved to the rear hydraulically so that the baseplate rests on the ground. On either side of the baseplate are two stabilisers that are extended to provide a more stable firing platform.
> 
> The cross-country chassis is provided with a central tyre-inflation system and on either side of the platform are stowage boxes for ammunition.
> 
> While the original Chinese 122 mm Type 96 howitzer had standard optical direct and indirect sights fitted, the CS/SH4 may have some elements of a navigation and gun laying system, but traverse and elevation are still manual.
> 
> Assuming that the ballistics are the same as the baseline 122 mm Type 96 towed howitzer, maximum range firing a standard high-explosive projectile is 15.3 km but this can be increased to 18 km with a special charge.
> 
> NORINCO are also marketing a 122 mm extended range full-bore hollow base (ERFB HB) projectile with a maximum range of 18 km as well as an ERFB Base Bleed (ERFB BB) type that increases its range to 21 m.
> 
> The latest 122 mm round to be revealed by NORINCO is a 122 mm BB round with rocket assist (BB RA), which gives a maximum range of 27 km but with a potential loss of accuracy.



We need to get few more towed Artillery and also replace old ones. Specially 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> We need to get few more towed Artillery and also replace old ones. Specially 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery



105s are good for hilly terrain

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## Khafee

Zarvan said:


> We need to get few more towed Artillery and also replace old ones. Specially 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery


Buy new ones by all means, but why replace them? Why not refurbish them, if it makes financial sense.

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## Areesh

ZedZeeshan said:


> how many of these systems Pakistan has..???



Pakistan has A100

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## Path-Finder

fatman17 said:


> 105s are good for hilly terrain


what about AH-4 for hilly terrain?


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## ali_raza

we should go for paladins.who knows we might end up having some EDa stocks


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## Sulman Badshah

Denel will give briefing about T5 in IDEAS 2016

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Denel will give briefing about T5 in IDEAS 2016


They are giving briefing on Denel company one day and than on next day special briefing on this Artillery Gun it says a lot. I think we are going for this Gun

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> what about AH-4 for hilly terrain?


Failed trials

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Failed trials


That is the question How it failed trials and when it was tested. @Dazzler @fatman17


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## monitor

*South African Army lines up Denel T5-45 howitzers*
*Helmoed-Römer Heitman, Pretoria* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
15 July 2016





A Denel 155 mm T5-45 self-propelled howitzer seen on the range. Source: Denel Land Systems
The South African Army is discussing with Denel Land Systems the possible acquisition of six 155 mm T5-45 self-propelled howitzers, a source in the Denel group has revealed.

The T5-45 is comprised of a 155 mm 45 calibre gun mounted on an 8x8 Tatra T815-7 truck that has a road speed of 85 km/h and a range of some 600 km. The complete system weighs 28 tonnes.

The truck is powered by a 300 kW turbo-charged diesel, coupled to a seven-speed manual gearbox with a two-speed transfer gearbox. A central tyre inflation system aids mobility over soft ground.

The gun has an elevation of -3° to +72°, a 60° unrestricted arc of fire at all elevations, 360° at 48° elevation, can engage targets with direct fire over a 180° arc out to 3,000 m, and can fire a five-round time-on-target mission to ranges between 13 and 30 km.

It uses the same ammunition family as the army's existing G5-45 towed and G6-45 self-propelled howitzers.

An auxiliary power unit (APU) provides hydraulic and electrical power for deployment, loading and firing of the gun, with a truck-mounted hydraulic pump for back-up hydraulic power.

It can be brought into action within one minute of stopping in its firing position and can be taken out of action within one minute to avoid counter-battery fire. There is on-board stowage for 24 projectiles and 24 charges. A power-operated projectile loading arm simplifies loading ammunition from the ground next to the vehicle.

The integral command-and-control system is comprised of an automatic laying and navigation system, muzzle velocity radar, gun management computer, and a communications system, as well as a back-up optical/mechanical panoramic sight with cant compensation. A telescopic sight allows self-defence direct fire.
*
The army could upgrade to a 52 calibre gun by changing just the barrel and acquiring the new M2000 Assegaai or M9 ERFB projectiles.*

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　**ihs.com/contact*




To read the full article, Client Login
(333 of 386 words)


----------



## Zarvan

monitor said:


> *South African Army lines up Denel T5-45 howitzers*
> *Helmoed-Römer Heitman, Pretoria* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 15 July 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Denel 155 mm T5-45 self-propelled howitzer seen on the range. Source: Denel Land Systems
> The South African Army is discussing with Denel Land Systems the possible acquisition of six 155 mm T5-45 self-propelled howitzers, a source in the Denel group has revealed.
> 
> The T5-45 is comprised of a 155 mm 45 calibre gun mounted on an 8x8 Tatra T815-7 truck that has a road speed of 85 km/h and a range of some 600 km. The complete system weighs 28 tonnes.
> 
> The truck is powered by a 300 kW turbo-charged diesel, coupled to a seven-speed manual gearbox with a two-speed transfer gearbox. A central tyre inflation system aids mobility over soft ground.
> 
> The gun has an elevation of -3° to +72°, a 60° unrestricted arc of fire at all elevations, 360° at 48° elevation, can engage targets with direct fire over a 180° arc out to 3,000 m, and can fire a five-round time-on-target mission to ranges between 13 and 30 km.
> 
> It uses the same ammunition family as the army's existing G5-45 towed and G6-45 self-propelled howitzers.
> 
> An auxiliary power unit (APU) provides hydraulic and electrical power for deployment, loading and firing of the gun, with a truck-mounted hydraulic pump for back-up hydraulic power.
> 
> It can be brought into action within one minute of stopping in its firing position and can be taken out of action within one minute to avoid counter-battery fire. There is on-board stowage for 24 projectiles and 24 charges. A power-operated projectile loading arm simplifies loading ammunition from the ground next to the vehicle.
> 
> The integral command-and-control system is comprised of an automatic laying and navigation system, muzzle velocity radar, gun management computer, and a communications system, as well as a back-up optical/mechanical panoramic sight with cant compensation. A telescopic sight allows self-defence direct fire.
> *
> The army could upgrade to a 52 calibre gun by changing just the barrel and acquiring the new M2000 Assegaai or M9 ERFB projectiles.*
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　**ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (333 of 386 words)


I have a strong feeling Pakistan is going to induct this Gun. I am hoping we get it with TOT and we also consider the towed 155 MM artillery gun which Denel company produces


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> That is the question How it failed trials and when it was tested. @Dazzler @fatman17



Not failed, but PA sent back with request for a few modifications. Still good chance of induction, utility of having in mountainous areas such as AK, GB, Swat, FATA. Second to none.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Not failed, but PA sent back with request for a few modifications. Still good chance of induction, utility of having in mountainous areas such as AK, GB, Swat, FATA. Second to none.


If it arrives before indian m777 with improvements then we are talking


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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> If it arrives before indian m777 with improvements then we are talking



NO ONE beats the Chinese in manufacturing, they are absolute beasts in it. I firmly believe it will be in out forces in the near future.

Might be like the A100 MLRS never hear anything and will see it in some exercise or 23rd March Parade lol.

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> I have a strong feeling Pakistan is going to induct this Gun. I am hoping we get it with TOT and we also consider the towed 155 MM artillery gun which Denel company produces



Feeling comes from where

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## fatman17



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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Feeling comes from where


Denel Group is giving presentation about itself at one day at IDEAS and than on next day special seminar on this Artillery Gun and on top of that Pakistan is testing this Artillery Gun also so I think chances are high


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Denel Group is giving presentation about itself at one day at IDEAS and than on next day special seminar on this Artillery Gun and on top of that Pakistan is testing this Artillery Gun also do I think chances are high



Let's see what happens

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## Sulman Badshah

*Denel from South Africa presents its T5-52 155mm truck-mounted howitzer at IDEAS 2016.*
The South African Defense Company Denel Land Systems presents its *T5-52 155mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer* at IDEAS 2016, the International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, to response to the needs of the Pakistani army for a new artillery vehicle. 



*Denel Land Systems T5-52 155 truck-mounted self-propelled howitzer at IDEAS 2016, International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan.*

*The Pakistan Army has been in the process of modernizing its artillery units in the next few years. In 2008, the Pakistani Army procured two Chinese-made SH-1 truck-mounted 155 mm howitzers for testing these vehicles failed the operational tests of the Pakistani army.*

The *Denel T5-52* is a truck-mounted gun-Howitzer 155 mm/52 calibre using a Czech-made Tatra T815-7 8×8 modified military truck chassis. 

The T5-52 has an operating crew of four crew members, and two crew members to prepare and supply the ammunition. The elevating mass consists of the ordnance, the cradle with an integrated buffer system, and the ammunition handling and ramming system.

The *T5-52* carries a total of 30 projectiles and 30 charges. The 155mm cannon is fitted with a semi-automatic loading system with 6 ammunition ready to fire, the remaining of 24 ammunition are in storage box located at the rear of the crew cabin. 

The ordnance has been optimized for the 52 caliber 155mm ballistic system. The projectiles are the extended range type and provide an increased range and target effectiveness when compared with existing systems. Using base bleed projectiles, the weapon has a range of 42,5 km at sea level. NATO and other ammunition can be fired, after consultation with the supplier.

A panoramic optical-mechanical sight is mounted directly to the trunnion, incorporating a compensation system for trunnion cant, which forms a backup for indirect fire. A telescopic sight for direct fire is mounted to the compensation system and gives a direct fire range of up to 3000m.

The *Denel T5-52* artillery system has excellent tactical and road strategic mobility thanks to the use of the Tatra truck chassis offering a road speed of 85 km/h with a maximum cruising range of 600 km.

Source: Army Recognition

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sh-1-was...ted-howitzer-ideas-2016.462621/#ixzz4Qo0r00gk

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Denel from South Africa presents its T5-52 155mm truck-mounted howitzer at IDEAS 2016.*
> The South African Defense Company Denel Land Systems presents its *T5-52 155mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer* at IDEAS 2016, the International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, to response to the needs of the Pakistani army for a new artillery vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> *Denel Land Systems T5-52 155 truck-mounted self-propelled howitzer at IDEAS 2016, International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan.*
> 
> *The Pakistan Army has been in the process of modernizing its artillery units in the next few years. In 2008, the Pakistani Army procured two Chinese-made SH-1 truck-mounted 155 mm howitzers for testing these vehicles failed the operational tests of the Pakistani army.*
> 
> The *Denel T5-52* is a truck-mounted gun-Howitzer 155 mm/52 calibre using a Czech-made Tatra T815-7 8×8 modified military truck chassis.
> 
> The T5-52 has an operating crew of four crew members, and two crew members to prepare and supply the ammunition. The elevating mass consists of the ordnance, the cradle with an integrated buffer system, and the ammunition handling and ramming system.
> 
> The *T5-52* carries a total of 30 projectiles and 30 charges. The 155mm cannon is fitted with a semi-automatic loading system with 6 ammunition ready to fire, the remaining of 24 ammunition are in storage box located at the rear of the crew cabin.
> 
> The ordnance has been optimized for the 52 caliber 155mm ballistic system. The projectiles are the extended range type and provide an increased range and target effectiveness when compared with existing systems. Using base bleed projectiles, the weapon has a range of 42,5 km at sea level. NATO and other ammunition can be fired, after consultation with the supplier.
> 
> A panoramic optical-mechanical sight is mounted directly to the trunnion, incorporating a compensation system for trunnion cant, which forms a backup for indirect fire. A telescopic sight for direct fire is mounted to the compensation system and gives a direct fire range of up to 3000m.
> 
> The *Denel T5-52* artillery system has excellent tactical and road strategic mobility thanks to the use of the Tatra truck chassis offering a road speed of 85 km/h with a maximum cruising range of 600 km.
> 
> Source: Army Recognition
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sh-1-was...ted-howitzer-ideas-2016.462621/#ixzz4Qo0r00gk



Serbian Nora is also here. They have arrived also

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## peruni

I will try to describe few pointers about NORA 155mm self propelled gun and possible procurement of some optional equipment:


1.Modular charges that allow quick and effective use of different maximum ranges
2.Battlefield management system software - it allows commandeers on any level from gun to battalion HQ to use weapons most effectively. It has a lots of different possibilities. For example:

- Commander of battery or division can directly take command of any individual weapon and give separate or joint command to all of them. That allows that battery (usual 6 weapons) or division- battalion (usual 18 weapons) concentrate to a target with a single click of button by commander. Or it can direct every weapon to different target or any other combination of interaction between HQ, weapon and target is possible.

-Mobile Geographical Information Systems integrated in battlefield management software is based on loaded local maps and is easy to integrate with lower and higher level of command giving full C4I2 

-Commandeer has real time insight in all weapons ammunition, fuel, position etc for evry single weapon

-Maintenance could be scheduled by data from every weapon based on its use(for example some will carry shooting more and some less and similar)

3.Automatic loader with 12 projectiles ready to fire. Loader can be refilled from the container on the deck of the vehicle.
4.All ballistic computation is automatic after desired target coordinates are inserted
5.Auxiliary power unit (APU) provides power to the system during weapon start-up at the fire position without needs for main engine to work.
6.High muzzle velocity of 925ms, and optional radar for projectile muzzle velocity measuring exact speed of projectile in moment of firing that increase precision of every shot that is fired
7.Remote control of weapon trough encrypted communication
8.Intercom for all crew members and tactical chat mode for communication inside battery and battalion - division
9.Automatic line of fire
10.From traveling to combat position transition takes one minute
11.After action review of all procedures and and data made during actual guns use - very important for training and better understanding of eventual mishaps in order to increase efficiency of crew and staff involved in practice


Options with Nora B-52 gun from same manufacturer

1.BOV-11 artillery reconnaissance vehicle with FCS computer, artillery electronic direction finder and communication equipment that works out of box with Nora B-52 self propelled gun
2.Logistic and Maintenance vehicles
3.HERA system for acoustic source location of artillery and rocket weapons with detection range of 30km that works in situation with heavy electronic interference
4.Towed 155mm Nora A1 with 8 rpm rate of fire and integrated FCS that is easy to integrate and complement with self propelled version
5.In case when you purchase more then 6 weapon and let say form a battalion with 3 battery and 18 weapons there is battalion level fire control and command system that comprise of:

- 3 battery command post - one for each battalion

- up to 3 observer posts

- battalion command posts

- voice/data communication between battalion elements and higher command

I hope you will find this post interesting 

Nora B-52 is very nice product and for Pakistan in case of bigger procurement of guns maybe some technology transfer could be interesting like for example local ammunition production.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

peruni said:


> I will try to describe few pointers about NORA 155mm self propelled gun and possible procurement of some optional equipment:
> 
> 
> 1.Modular charges that allow quick and effective use of different maximum ranges
> 2.Battlefield management system software - it allows commandeers on any level from gun to battalion HQ to use weapons most effectively. It has a lots of different possibilities. For example:
> 
> - Commander of battery or division can directly take command of any individual weapon and give separate or joint command to all of them. That allows that battery (usual 6 weapons) or division- battalion (usual 18 weapons) concentrate to a target with a single click of button by commander. Or it can direct every weapon to different target or any other combination of interaction between HQ, weapon and target is possible.
> 
> -Mobile Geographical Information Systems integrated in battlefield management software is based on loaded local maps and is easy to integrate with lower and higher level of command giving full C4I2
> 
> -Commandeer has real time insight in all weapons ammunition, fuel, position etc for evry single weapon
> 
> -Maintenance could be scheduled by data from every weapon based on its use(for example some will carry shooting more and some less and similar)
> 
> 3.Automatic loader with 12 projectiles ready to fire. Loader can be refilled from the container on the deck of the vehicle.
> 4.All ballistic computation is automatic after desired target coordinates are inserted
> 5.Auxiliary power unit (APU) provides power to the system during weapon start-up at the fire position without needs for main engine to work.
> 6.High muzzle velocity of 925ms, and optional radar for projectile muzzle velocity measuring exact speed of projectile in moment of firing that increase precision of every shot that is fired
> 7.Remote control of weapon trough encrypted communication
> 8.Intercom for all crew members and tactical chat mode for communication inside battery and battalion - division
> 9.Automatic line of fire
> 10.From traveling to combat position transition takes one minute
> 11.After action review of all procedures and and data made during actual guns use - very important for training and better understanding of eventual mishaps in order to increase efficiency of crew and staff involved in practice
> 
> 
> Options with Nora B-52 gun from same manufacturer
> 
> 1.BOV-11 artillery reconnaissance vehicle with FCS computer, artillery electronic direction finder and communication equipment that works out of box with Nora B-52 self propelled gun
> 2.Logistic and Maintenance vehicles
> 3.HERA system for acoustic source location of artillery and rocket weapons with detection range of 30km that works in situation with heavy electronic interference
> 4.Towed 155mm Nora A1 with 8 rpm rate of fire and integrated FCS that is easy to integrate and complement with self propelled version
> 5.In case when you purchase more then 6 weapon and let say form a battalion with 3 battery and 18 weapons there is battalion level fire control and command system that comprise of:
> 
> - 3 battery command post - one for each battalion
> 
> - up to 3 observer posts
> 
> - battalion command posts
> 
> - voice/data communication between battalion elements and higher command
> 
> I hope you will find this post interesting
> 
> Nora B-52 is very nice product and for Pakistan in case of bigger procurement of guns maybe some technology transfer could be interesting like for example local ammunition production.



Ammo production?  Dude we make and export ammo... 155mm Base bleed,cluster packin ammo etc.

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## saumyasupratik

Hello, any photos of the Panter 155/L52 in Pakistani Service?

All I could find was this.






Also what 155mm shells is POF producing, I know POF produces the HE M101, M107 and has a JV with Poongsang for K310 BB DPICM rounds (178 million contract for 8,600 rounds), is the K307 being manufactured? What ERFB, ERFB-BB and V-LAP shells are being produced by POF?

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## Path-Finder

From 2:48 the firing of AH-4 155mm is shown here!!

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> From 2:48 the firing of AH-4 155mm is shown here!!


Sir AH-4 has not been selected after trials

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Sir AH-4 has not been selected after trials


can you share more details?

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> can you share more details?


No details , it just wasn't approved after trials

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## JK!

Are there plans to procure any more Panter guns from Turkey?


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> No details , it just wasn't approved after trials


According to senior members here AH-4 has not been rejected. Pakistan has requested some changes to be made in them and when those changes are made Pakistan will again test those Guns.


----------



## fatman17

Land Platforms

NORINCO launches new tank destroyer

Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

09 January 2017

The ST2 tracked tank destroying vehicle is fitted with a three-person turret armed with a 105 mm rifled gun that can fire a wide range of ammunition. Source: NORINCO

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has expanded its armoured vehicle portfolio with the development of the ST2 tracked 105 mm Tank Destroying Vehicle (TDV), which is understood to have been developed specifically for the export market rather than the People's Liberation Army (PLA).

The hull is similar to that used on the earlier generation NORINCO YW534 (Type 89) armoured personnel carrier (APC) - which has not been manufactured for some years - but with six road wheel stations either side rather than five.

While new platforms could be built, it is possible that the ST2 could use refurbished and upgraded vehicles.

The forward part of the hull sides slope inwards but at the rear they are more vertical to enable the turret, with its larger ring, to be installed. The driver is seated front left with the diesel powerpack to the right.

The ST2 TDV consists of a fully tracked platform fitted with a welded steel three-person turret mounted in the middle. The 105 mm rifled gun has a muzzle brake, fume extractor, and thermal sleeve, but does not currently appear to be fitted with a muzzle reference system (MRS), which would enable the weapon to be bore sighted without the crew leaving the vehicle.

A total of 32 rounds of 105 mm ammunition are carried with the mix depending on the role the ST2 TDV is expected to undertake.

As well as firing the standard natures of 105 mm ammunition including armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding sabot - tracer (APFSDS-T), high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT), high explosive (HE), and a recently developed bunker busting round, it can also fire a gun-launched guided projectile (GLGP), which NORINCO is marketing as the GP2.

The GLGP has a maximum range of up to 5,000 m and is fitted with a tandem HEAT warhead that is claimed to penetrate 650 mm of rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) protected by explosive reactive armour (ERA).

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> According to senior members here AH-4 has not been rejected. Pakistan has requested some changes to be made in them and when those changes are made Pakistan will again test those Guns.


Would the corps of artillery not know better ?? Also if a gun with upgrades and changes does come it will be a **** variant not the original AH-4

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## proka89

Pakistan delegation led by maj general Farhan Akhtar (chief of artillery department) is visiting Serba, in organization by Yugoimport SDPR.






They were received yesterday by Serbian Defence minister Zoran Djordjevic.


Djordjevic and Akhtar agreed that the establishment of new partnerships, technology transfer for the purposes of defense industry of Pakistan and joint appearances on third markets represent the main opportunities for the development of military economic cooperation between the two countries. They also discussed the specific modalities of cooperation between the defense industries of Serbia and Pakistan.

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## Friendly

Yugos shouldnt underestimated. They are good. YUGO SLAVYA = South Russia

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

proka89 said:


> Pakistan delegation led by maj general Farhan Akhtar (chief of artillery department) is visiting Serba, in organization by Yugoimport SDPR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were received yesterday by Serbian Defence minister Zoran Djordjevic.
> 
> 
> Djordjevic and Akhtar agreed that the establishment of new partnerships, technology transfer for the purposes of defense industry of Pakistan and joint appearances on third markets represent the main opportunities for the development of military economic cooperation between the two countries. They also discussed the specific modalities of cooperation between the defense industries of Serbia and Pakistan.


@Path-Finder You want to have some fun? 

Watch this: @Zarvan Zastava.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Path-Finder You want to have some fun?
> 
> Watch this: @Zarvan Zastava.


Yes


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## Friendly

Path-Finder said:


> Yes


 Pakistan is interested in some special product






http://www.zastava-arms.rs/

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## Path-Finder

Friendly said:


> Pakistan is interested in some special product
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.zastava-arms.rs/


No to understand the running gag you have to go here!

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-service-rifle-g-3-type-56-replacement-competition-2016.426049/

you can skip the first 50 or so pages to get to the juicy bits

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Seriously though, with the DG Artillery visiting Serbia, I wonder if there's interest in more than just interest in the NORA B-52. Yugoimport-SDPR also has the LRSVM Morava MLRS and Spider ATGM.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Path-Finder You want to have some fun?
> 
> Watch this: @Zarvan Zastava.


Zastava Rifle is not coming but I think this visit is for Artillery Gun Nora or may be the other products you mentioned



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seriously though, with the DG Artillery visiting Serbia, I wonder if there's interest in more than just interest in the NORA B-52. Yugoimport-SDPR also has the LRSVM Morava MLRS and Spider ATGM.

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## Path-Finder

In My opinion Denel with its great Range out shoots almost anything its rivals have! Denel G6 is what PA should aspire to, But NORA is a very good gun as well to its credit! Another little side note South Africa has good abundance of Titanium so maybe Denel could come up with a light gun like M777!!



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seriously though, with the DG Artillery visiting Serbia, I wonder if there's interest in more than just interest in the NORA B-52. Yugoimport-SDPR also has the LRSVM Morava MLRS and Spider ATGM.





Zarvan said:


> Zastava Rifle is not coming but I think this visit is for Artillery Gun Nora or may be the other products you mentioned


Hazrat @Zarvan relax it was a joke.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> In My opinion Denel with its great Range out shoots almost anything its rivals have! Denel G6 is what PA should aspire to, But NORA is a very good gun as well to its credit! Another little side though South Africa has good abundance of Titanium so maybe Denel could come up with a light gun like M777!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan relax it was a joke.


Denel is developing the G7 Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO), a 3,800 kg towed howitzer. It's 105 mm, but it has the terminal velocity of 155 mm. With a funding partner, Denel is aiming to pull the weight to less than 3,000 kg. I don't think a 155 mm gun is impossible for them, but they don't have one yet.

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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> In My opinion Denel with its great Range out shoots almost anything its rivals have! Denel G6 is what PA should aspire to, But NORA is a very good gun as well to its credit! Another little side though South Africa has good abundance of Titanium so maybe Denel could come up with a light gun like M777!!



Max range depends on ammunition used, and since all those modern 155mm howitzers have the main armament with same characteristics (155mm 52cal gun), when using the same ammunition the max range will be similar. 

And don't be to excited about all those max ranges from the producers catalogs. It's not that hard to make artillery shell fly that far, but it's hard to actually hit something, especially with those rocket assisted shells. Unless you are using something like M982 Excalibur, you can only dream about hitting anything at those ranges. Thats why today in even the most advanced armies you probably won't find shells that are supposed to fly over 40km. And you probably won't have effective and precise fire over the range of 30 km, unless you are using some kind of expensive guided munition.

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## Sher_Ali

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ammo production? [emoji38] Dude we make and export ammo... 155mm Base bleed,cluster packin ammo etc.


Do we produce ex-caliber grade artillery munitions too?


----------



## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> Max range depends on ammunition used, and since all those modern 155mm howitzers have the main armament with same characteristics (155mm 52cal gun), when using the same ammunition the max range will be similar.
> 
> And don't be to excited about all those max ranges from the producers catalogs. It's not that hard to make artillery shell fly that far, but it's hard to actually hit something, especially with those rocket assisted shells. Unless you are using something like M982 Excalibur, you can only dream about hitting anything at those ranges. Thats why today in even the most advanced armies you probably won't find shells that are supposed to fly over 40km. And you probably won't have effective and precise fire over the range of 30 km, unless you are using some kind of expensive guided munition.


I wasn't knocking the NORA its a great Gun, as for guided ammo There is a unconfirmed rumour of a certain guided ammo in use, as a guess its either the Chinese Guided or Italian Precision shell in use!

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## Zarvan

proka89 said:


> Max range depends on ammunition used, and since all those modern 155mm howitzers have the main armament with same characteristics (155mm 52cal gun), when using the same ammunition the max range will be similar.
> 
> And don't be to excited about all those max ranges from the producers catalogs. It's not that hard to make artillery shell fly that far, but it's hard to actually hit something, especially with those rocket assisted shells. Unless you are using something like M982 Excalibur, you can only dream about hitting anything at those ranges. Thats why today in even the most advanced armies you probably won't find shells that are supposed to fly over 40km. And you probably won't have effective and precise fire over the range of 30 km, unless you are using some kind of expensive guided munition.


By the way is Serbia developing manpad launcher for Spider Missile also ? I mean Manpad similar to Javelin system


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> By the way is Serbia developing manpad launcher for Spider Missile also ? I mean Manpad similar to Javelin system


Hazrat Javelin is not a manpad it is a ATGM!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat Javelin is not a manpad it is a ATGM!








It's entire system not just missile. Whole system is called Javelin


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> It's entire system not just missile. Whole system is called Javelin


And that system is an anti tank guided missile system and has very very limited capability to hit hovering aerial targets those targeted by other systems eg laser designaters

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> And that system is an anti tank guided missile system and has very very limited capability to hit hovering aerial targets those targeted by other systems eg laser designaters


Mr the Anti Tank system which a single soldier can is also called manpad

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Mr the Anti Tank system which a single soldier can is also called manpad


Hazrat @Zarvan what does MANPAD stand for?



Zarvan said:


> It's entire system not just missile. Whole system is called Javelin


Hazrat @Zarvan I think you need a break from this forum!!!

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## proka89

Zarvan said:


> By the way is Serbia developing manpad launcher for Spider Missile also ? I mean Manpad similar to Javelin system



Serbia is developing ALAS and SPIDER missiles. ALAS is ground to ground, or sea to ground missile, and SPIDER can be also fired from the helicopters. You should know that MANPAD is short from *MAN* *P*ortable *A*ir *D*efense system. ALAS and SPIDER are not air defence systems. And they are not meant to be carried by a single soldier, both those rockets are to big for something like that.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Mr the Anti Tank system which a single soldier can is also called manpad


Meray bhai, manpad Is man portable air system main qiun tumharay say jhuut bolon gaa!!

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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Meray bhai, manpad Is man portable air system main qiun tumharay say jhuut bolon gaa!!


hehehe  Hazrat @Zarvan is in stealth mode now, twice now he has cocked up once with the weight of ARX and now MANPAD. It's all your fault

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## fatman17

Turkish 105mm light howitzer

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Turkish 105mm light howitzer


We need them because our 105 MM and 120 MM artillery are 70 years old so we need them now

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## Army research

fatman17 said:


> Turkish 105mm light howitzer





Zarvan said:


> We need them because our 105 MM and 120 MM artillery are 70 years old so we need them now


That as a light weight para forces howitzer,
Unless we need it in a mountain assault formation or heavy para brigade , we have no need of these

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> That as a light weight para forces howitzer,
> Unless we need it in a mountain assault formation or heavy para brigade , we have no need of these



They can be great for LOC. And yes with few changes we can use them every where

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> They can be great for LOC. And yes with few changes we can use them every where


With few changes you get a different weapon , with different barrel size, ammo loader, ballistics which would make a better gun for stationary loc

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

China enhances PGZ-07 capability

Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

20 January 2017

The PGZ-07 twin 35 mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun system has been upgraded with the installation of a new sensor pod. Source: Christopher F Foss

The PGZ-07 twin 35 mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) system currently in service with China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been upgraded with the addition of a new sensor pod.

The existing sensor pod is positioned above the tracking radar, which is mounted on the forward part of the turret, and includes a laser rangefinder to ensure that the target is within the effective range of the 35 mm cannon. The additional sensor pod is mounted to the right of the tracking radar.

The sensor pods contain a number of systems, including a charge-couple device (CCD) camera and a thermal imager, that enable the 35 mm cannon to be used in almost all weather conditions.

Furthermore, the pods can be used if electronic countermeasures are jamming the surveillance and tracking radars, or if adversaries are using anti-radiation missiles (ARM).

The 35 mm cannon used in the PGZ-07 are Chinese-manufactured versions of the Swiss Oerlikon (today Rheinmetall Air Defence) KDA, which are also used in the similar German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Gepard twin 35 mm SPAAG.

Close-up of the tracking radar mounted on the forward part of the turret and showing two sensor pods; the new unit is on the left. (Christopher F Foss)

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has confirmed that it now manufactures a complete family of 35 mm ammunition, including high-explosive incendiary (HEI), high-explosive incendiary - tracer (HEI-T) and semi armour-piercing high-explosive incendiary - tracer (SAPHEI-T) with all of these having a muzzle velocity of 1,175 m/s.

The latest NORINCO 35 mm round is the Programmable Time Fuze Pre-fragmented (PTFP), which has a muzzle velocity of 1,050 m/s; currently this cannot be fired by the PGZ-07. The PTFP is similar in concept to the Rheinmetall Air Defence Advanced Hit Efficiency and Destruction (AHEAD) 35 mm, which has been sold to a number of export customers for use with upgraded twin 35 mm GDF series towed anti-aircraft gun (AAG) systems.

The 35 mm PTFP projectile consists of more than 100 spin-stabilised tungsten sub-projectiles and has a time fuze that is programmed as the projectile passes through the muzzle coil, according to the exact velocity and target parameters.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Land Platforms
> 
> China enhances PGZ-07 capability
> 
> Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 20 January 2017
> 
> The PGZ-07 twin 35 mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun system has been upgraded with the installation of a new sensor pod. Source: Christopher F Foss
> 
> The PGZ-07 twin 35 mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) system currently in service with China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been upgraded with the addition of a new sensor pod.
> 
> The existing sensor pod is positioned above the tracking radar, which is mounted on the forward part of the turret, and includes a laser rangefinder to ensure that the target is within the effective range of the 35 mm cannon. The additional sensor pod is mounted to the right of the tracking radar.
> 
> The sensor pods contain a number of systems, including a charge-couple device (CCD) camera and a thermal imager, that enable the 35 mm cannon to be used in almost all weather conditions.
> 
> Furthermore, the pods can be used if electronic countermeasures are jamming the surveillance and tracking radars, or if adversaries are using anti-radiation missiles (ARM).
> 
> The 35 mm cannon used in the PGZ-07 are Chinese-manufactured versions of the Swiss Oerlikon (today Rheinmetall Air Defence) KDA, which are also used in the similar German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Gepard twin 35 mm SPAAG.
> 
> Close-up of the tracking radar mounted on the forward part of the turret and showing two sensor pods; the new unit is on the left. (Christopher F Foss)
> 
> China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has confirmed that it now manufactures a complete family of 35 mm ammunition, including high-explosive incendiary (HEI), high-explosive incendiary - tracer (HEI-T) and semi armour-piercing high-explosive incendiary - tracer (SAPHEI-T) with all of these having a muzzle velocity of 1,175 m/s.
> 
> The latest NORINCO 35 mm round is the Programmable Time Fuze Pre-fragmented (PTFP), which has a muzzle velocity of 1,050 m/s; currently this cannot be fired by the PGZ-07. The PTFP is similar in concept to the Rheinmetall Air Defence Advanced Hit Efficiency and Destruction (AHEAD) 35 mm, which has been sold to a number of export customers for use with upgraded twin 35 mm GDF series towed anti-aircraft gun (AAG) systems.
> 
> The 35 mm PTFP projectile consists of more than 100 spin-stabilised tungsten sub-projectiles and has a time fuze that is programmed as the projectile passes through the muzzle coil, according to the exact velocity and target parameters.



Which is the other system visible on side in first picture ???


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Which is the other system visible on side in first picture ???



SAM system perhaps HQ?


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## fatman17

The Beast M109 SPH

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1333579040046413

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## Inception-06

Ulla said:


> This picture were not posted before in this originals ! They are old but gold because in the Kargil war our Artillery was very effective and deadly for the Indian infantry, bunkers and logistic lines........So enjoy this glorious images.
> 
> 
> View attachment 136851
> View attachment 136853
> View attachment 136852
> 
> 
> Pakistan Artillery of Type-59 130 mm gun at Mushung (05.Jun.1999) during the Kargil War. Pakistani troops were able to bring down effective artillery fire on Indian positions through much of the conflict, since we commanded all heights.
> View attachment 136867
> View attachment 136868
> View attachment 136869
> View attachment 136870
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ordnance QF 25-pounder guns in service with the Frontier Corps (P.O.F is still selling the rounds for this gun).
> 
> View attachment 136866
> *



@Sarge Read this page and check my posts about the Kargil war ! (you have to read at page 17 !



Ulla said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric
> 
> A selam Brothers>
> 
> What are your experience as a gunner ?
> 
> Is it a standard in all Pakistani Artillery regiments to have 12.7mm AA Gun mounted on the Truck for self-protection or is this only a decesion made by local commander ? Because sometimes I miss the 12.7mm AA guns as a secondary weapon on Pakistani A.Trucks ! What is the official order and tactic ?
> 
> 
> To install the 12.7mm on (Artillery) Trucks is soviet military doctrine/tactic from WW2 (a very effective tactic to protect the Artillery guns from air and ground threat):
> 
> some examples:
> View attachment 183286
> 
> 
> Pakistani example with 12.7mm :
> View attachment 183287
> 
> View attachment 183290




@Sarge Thats also a amazing analyse from the past, check it, if you got time !



Unlike a tank or any other armored vehical, an artillery gun does not go into battle while it is still attached to a truck. The 12.7 is there for protection from air during move only. Once deployed, there are other measures which ofcourse will not be discussed. Any artillery unit or battery is authorized with a specific number of air defence weapons which may not be restricted to 12.7s only. So, just because you cant see a 12.7 mounted on every (Pakistani) gun-tower in the pictures that you see on the internet, it would not automatically imply that there is 'lack of funds,' corruption,' or 'lack of discipline' in the military per se.

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> @Sarge Read this page and check my posts about the Kargil war ! (you have to read at page 17 !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Sarge Thats also a amazing analyse from the past, check it, if you got time !
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike a tank or any other armored vehical, an artillery gun does not go into battle while it is still attached to a truck. The 12.7 is there for protection from air during move only. Once deployed, there are other measures which ofcourse will not be discussed. Any artillery unit or battery is authorized with a specific number of air defence weapons which may not be restricted to 12.7s only. So, just because you cant see a 12.7 mounted on every (Pakistani) gun-tower in the pictures that you see on the internet, it would not automatically imply that there is 'lack of funds,' corruption,' or 'lack of discipline' in the military per se.



yes sir 

Your analysis is to the point and the 130mm's range is what makes it an effective weapon in mountains even though its not a howitzer.

please give me link of page also

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## Inception-06

Sarge said:


> yes sir
> 
> Your analysis is to the point and the 130mm's range is what makes it an effective weapon in mountains even though its not a howitzer.
> 
> please give me link of page also




Which Link Sir, everything is wirtten on page 17 ? Sorry maybe I misunderstood something.

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## Signalian

somewhere recently in Pakistan

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## HRK

Sarge said:


> somewhere recently in Pakistan
> View attachment 372916


 which one .. ??
203mm ...??

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## Signalian

M-110 A2 Range 30km

31:15








HRK said:


> which one .. ??
> 203mm ...??


yes...M-110, 203mm.



HRK said:


> which one .. ??
> 203mm ...??


yes...M-110, 203mm.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should look for new Towed Artillery Guns we are good at SP and we are already testing Wheel Mounted Artillery systems to induct one and produce them in Pakistan so we need to focus on towed Artillery systems as well as getting at least 2 to 3 different kind of MRLS. Specially like the one used by USA that M270

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## MystryMan

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should look for new Towed Artillery Guns we are good at SP and we are already testing Wheel Mounted Artillery systems to induct one and produce them in Pakistan so we need to focus on towed Artillery systems as well as getting at least 2 to 3 different kind of MRLS. Specially like the one used by USA that M270


M270 were said to be part of EDA stocks offered to PA from Afghan theatre. I think it didn't materialized. May be someone knowledgeable can shed some light.

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## fatman17

MystryMan said:


> M270 were said to be part of EDA stocks offered to PA from Afghan theatre. I think it didn't materialized. May be someone knowledgeable can shed some light.



No EDA from Afghanistan materialised due to poor relationship

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## ghazi52

M198 155mm towed Howitzer

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## Signalian

^^

All the best weapons of Pak Army go to formations deployed in desert regions.

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## HRK



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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> View attachment 376732


One thing i never quite understood, Why did PA drop the M2 Browning and adopt DShK?


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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> One thing i never quite understood, Why did PA drop the M2 Browning and adopt DShK?


very valid question


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## proka89

Nora B52. Parts of this video are from Pakistan testing:
https://www.defenceprocurementinter...fence-procurement-international-nora-b-52.mp4

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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> Nora B52. Parts of this video are from Pakistan testing:
> https://www.defenceprocurementinter...fence-procurement-international-nora-b-52.mp4


did it pass the test?


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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> did it pass the test?


As far as i know testing in Pakistan is not over yet. Or if it is over, i don't know the results.


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## fatman17

proka89 said:


> As far as i know testing in Pakistan is not over yet. Or if it is over, i don't know the results.



testing on militants across the border.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> testing on militants across the border.


We are most probably using Towed Artillery for that

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## ali_raza

proka89 said:


> Nora B52. Parts of this video are from Pakistan testing:
> https://www.defenceprocurementinter...fence-procurement-international-nora-b-52.mp4


geography is definitely of pakistan


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## mdcp

View attachment 378427
View attachment 378428


South African 155mm, had chance to visit defense exhibition in Durban few days ago

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## proka89

My translation of the part of article from Serbian newspaper "Politika". This is what their reporter (which is in Abu Dhabi at the moment) wrote:

_On the first day Pakistani Minister of Military Industry twice came to our booth for "Lazar-3" and "Nora B-52." Pakistan expressed need for a 500 Nora B 52 howitzers. From that number they would buy 100 of them directly from Serbia, and 400 would be produced locally in Pakistan under technology transfer for production of that SPG. Pakistan also showed interest in new Serbian 122mm Grad missile G2000/52, with a range of 52 km._

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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> My translation of the part of article from Serbian newspaper "Politika". This is what their reporter (which is in Abu Dhabi at the moment) wrote:
> 
> _On the first day Pakistani Minister of Military Industry twice came to our booth for "Lazar-3" and "Nora B-52." Pakistan expressed need for a 500 Nora B 52 howitzers. From that number they would buy 100 of them directly from Serbia, and 400 would be produced locally in Pakistan under technology transfer for production of that SPG. Pakistan also showed interest in new Serbian 122mm Grad missile G2000/52, with a range of 52 km._


I think congrats are in order. even though the deal is not finalised


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I think congrats are in order. even though the deal is not finalised


Never trust our visits on boots. As for trials they are still taking place and we are not even close on deciding which one to go. Secondly that Missile is good thing. Pakistan needs more MRLS at least 3 new MRLs of various range are needed. Serbia is also showing some good Anti Tank Weapons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Never trust our visits on boots. As for trials they are still taking place and we are not even close on deciding which one to go. Secondly that Missile is good thing. Pakistan needs more MRLS at least 3 new MRLs of various range are needed. Serbia is also showing some good Anti Tank Weapons.


If anything we now know the scale the Army is planning ... 500 self-propelled howitzers, 400 of which to be built in Pakistan.

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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> I think congrats are in order. even though the deal is not finalised


Nothing is sure yet. I hope for Nora to win, because it would be a great success for Serbian defence industry, but what will Pakistan choose at the end, is yet to be seen.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

proka89 said:


> Nothing is sure yet. I hope for Nora to win, because it would be a great success for Serbian defence industry, but what will Pakistan choose at the end, is yet to be seen.


Pakistan could also be interested in the Lazar and/or MILOSH. I'm not sure about single sourcing a massive order, but various armed forces and interior ministry branches have recurring requirements for such vehicles.


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## proka89

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Pakistan could also be interested in the Lazar and/or MILOSH. I'm not sure about single sourcing a massive order, but various armed forces and interior ministry branches have recurring requirements for such vehicles.



What i also heard (this is not confirmed information) is that Pakistan is cooperating with EdePro, to modernize 122mm rockets for Grad up to G2000 standard. This basically means replacement of rocket engine with the new one, which alows the missile to fly up to 40 km.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Never trust our visits on boots. As for trials they are still taking place and we are not even close on deciding which one to go. Secondly that Missile is good thing. Pakistan needs more MRLS at least 3 new MRLs of various range are needed. Serbia is also showing some good Anti Tank Weapons.


The need for self propelled guns is becoming more and more critical. Both Denel and Nora are good platforms i hope a decision is made soon enough. MRLS are always a welcome addition of course.



proka89 said:


> Nothing is sure yet. I hope for Nora to win, because it would be a great success for Serbian defence industry, but what will Pakistan choose at the end, is yet to be seen.


The evolution of Nora is remarkable from what it was to its current form. It's in the league of Denel G6 which is saying something!

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Pakistan could also be interested in the Lazar and/or MILOSH. I'm not sure about single sourcing a massive order, but various armed forces and interior ministry branches have recurring requirements for such vehicles.


Lazar was tested and I don't think Army liked it. So now either Serbia has made some massive improvements or something else is going on. By the way why Pakistan doesn't go for wheeled APC mostly ? We always prefer tracked ones. I can understand about love for tracked APC in desert but why on plains of Punjab ?



Path-Finder said:


> The need for self propelled guns is becoming more and more critical. Both Denel and Nora are good platforms i hope a decision is made soon enough. MRLS are always a welcome addition of course.
> 
> 
> The evolution of Nora is remarkable from what it was to its current form. It's in the league of Denel G6 which is saying something!


We are quite sufficient in SP even now and yes Truck Mounted will be a great addition but I am worried about the towed ones specially 155 MM category. Many countries are coming up with 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery Guns and they are light weight but still not much options are available when it comes to 155 MM Artillery Guns.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Lazar was tested and I don't think Army liked it. So now either Serbia has made some massive improvements or something else is going on. By the way why Pakistan doesn't go for wheeled APC mostly ? We always prefer tracked ones. I can understand about love for tracked APC in desert but why on plains of Punjab ?
> 
> 
> We are quite sufficient in SP even now and yes Truck Mounted will be a great addition but I am worried about the towed ones specially 155 MM category. Many countries are coming up with 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery Guns and they are light weight but still not much options are available when it comes to 155 MM Artillery Guns.


The Army tested the Lazar 2, there's now an improved variant in the Lazar 3. But beside that, Serbia recently revealed the MILOSH general purpose armoured vehicle, which might be something the MoD or Interior Ministry could look at to replace their older armoured vehicle platforms.

Wheeled AFVs are probably being sought for the plains of Punjab (as you said) and to utilize Pakistan's increasingly pervasive road network.

I'm not sure how far along Pakistan's east-facing road-networks are, but it seems the west-facing and north-south roads are major. Wheeled AFVs will enable the Army to move infantry, light offensive power (e.g. 105 mm guns attached to AFVs), etc, in these areas.

Besides looking at foreign options, we also have Blitzkrieg Defence Solutions working on the Hamza MCV. It is essentially a mine-resistant 8x8 AFV. Shouldn't be difficult to re-use the chassis for a typical 8x8 AFV.

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## Sulman Badshah

proka89 said:


> What i also heard (this is not confirmed information) is that Pakistan is cooperating with EdePro, to modernize 122mm rockets for Grad up to G2000 standard. This basically means replacement of rocket engine with the new one, which alows the missile to fly up to 40 km.


Pakistan was already modernizing 122mm with GIDS one ... which can go utpo 45 km

Maybe PA is looking for carrier and system replacement

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## Zarvan

proka89 said:


> Nothing is sure yet. I hope for Nora to win, because it would be a great success for Serbian defence industry, but what will Pakistan choose at the end, is yet to be seen.


By the way has Pakistan showed any interest in your future soldier program ?

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Army tested the Lazar 2



Is there any confirm report, i think it was just Sindh Police last time ...??


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Certainly having 100-1000 of these units handly along side Afghan (Rouge) region areas , to come out of Barracks unload their furry , if suspected camps are found in Afghan (Rouge) regions

Afghan Rough Regions (*ARR*)

These can go in DEEP STRIKE , with Gunship support and come back at 12 for lunch at home after mission is completed or just maintain their Won over territories / positions

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## HRK

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan was already modernizing 122mm with GIDS one ... which can go utpo 45 km
> 
> Maybe PA is looking for carrier and system replacement



this is what actually I was also wondering as G-2000 does not offer any additional range over the existing system in PA .... but below attached pic indicate that this system was at least discussed even for sake of getting information ...

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Lazar was tested and I don't think Army liked it. So now either Serbia has made some massive improvements or something else is going on. By the way why Pakistan doesn't go for wheeled APC mostly ? We always prefer tracked ones. I can understand about love for tracked APC in desert but why on plains of Punjab ?
> 
> 
> We are quite sufficient in SP even now and yes Truck Mounted will be a great addition but I am worried about the towed ones specially 155 MM category. Many countries are coming up with 105 MM and 120 MM Artillery Guns and they are light weight but still not much options are available when it comes to 155 MM Artillery Guns.


Most of the 155 guns are old with the exception of Panter if it was adopted! Need for new 155mm will become urgent that is for sure.

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> did it pass the test?


Still here!


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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Still here!


i want to ask.
why army phased out m1 browning


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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> i want to ask.
> why army phased out m1 browning


Ok ask.
But please do that in a relevant thread. 

BTW, are you talking about M1919?i guess you wanted to say M2 and also that you wanted to ask this AFTER:


Path-Finder said:


> One thing i never quite understood, Why did PA drop the M2 Browning and adopt DShK?



*Lets take the discussion to some relevant thread. *


----------



## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Ok ask.
> But please do that in a relevant thread.
> 
> BTW, are you talking about M1919?i guess you wanted to say M2 and also that you wanted to ask this AFTER:
> 
> 
> *Lets take the discussion to some relevant thread. *


hahahahha yeaa sorry but i saw this gun in the pic above


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## proka89

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan was already modernizing 122mm with GIDS one ... which can go utpo 45 km
> 
> Maybe PA is looking for carrier and system replacement


Like i said it's just the unconfirmed information. For G2000 EdePro is only selling the rocket engine.



HRK said:


> Is there any confirm report, i think it was just Sindh Police last time ...??


I also don't have any information about Lazar being tested by Pakistan Army.



Zarvan said:


> By the way has Pakistan showed any interest in your future soldier program ?



There were some talks few years ago that Pakistan showed certain interest in that program, what happened after that, i don't know.

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## Rajput Warrior

proka89 said:


> What i also heard (this is not confirmed information) is that Pakistan is cooperating with EdePro, to modernize 122mm rockets for Grad up to G2000 standard. This basically means replacement of rocket engine with the new one, which alows the missile to fly up to 40 km.


*Refurbishment/Range Enhancement of 122 mm MBRL Ammunition*
Advance technology made it possible to refurbish and enhance the range of 122mm MBRL rockets up to* 45 Km* as compared to its original range of 20 Km. Refurbished extended range version of the rocket has also undergone various design improvements which guaranties reliability and greater safety during operation.

http://gids.com.pk/refurbishment-range-enhancement-of-122mm-MBRL-ammunition

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## proka89

Rajput Warrior said:


> *Refurbishment/Range Enhancement of 122 mm MBRL Ammunition*
> Advance technology made it possible to refurbish and enhance the range of 122mm MBRL rockets up to* 45 Km* as compared to its original range of 20 Km. Refurbished extended range version of the rocket has also undergone various design improvements which guaranties reliability and greater safety during operation.
> 
> http://gids.com.pk/refurbishment-range-enhancement-of-122mm-MBRL-ammunition



Maybe there is some kind of cooperation between them. This was published by your Ministry of defence production in 2008:

_As part of the Vision-2020, POF has undertaken a number of joint venture propositions with foreign partners on the basis of co-production and co-marketing, to allow inflow of Technology and enhance our capacity. Some of the joint ventures are:_

M/S POONGSAN, SOUTH KOREA (155MM BB DPICM)

M/S NEXTER – FRANCE (155MM BASE BLEED ARTILLERY AMMO)

M/S UNIS PRETIS – BOSNIA (COPRODUCTION OF 125 MM HEAT ROUND)

M/S MKEK – TURKEY (JOINT R&D)

M/S INFLEX ARGENTOIL (CNG CYLINDERS)

*M/S EDEPRO - SERBIA (EXTENSION IN RANGE OF 122MM MBRL)*

M/S OERLIKON - SWITZERLAND (35MM ANTI AIRCRAFT AMMO)

M/S FN HERSTAL OF BELGIUM – (9.MM PISTOL)

M/S DIEHL BGT DEFENCE GERMANY (ARTY AMMO)

M/S NITROCHEME – SWITZERLAND (155MM MODULAR CHARGE SYSTEM)

http://202.83.164.29/modp/userfiles1/file/MoDP Data/NEW YEAR BOOK 2008.pdf

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## Zarvan

proka89 said:


> Like i said it's just the unconfirmed information. For G2000 EdePro is only selling the rocket engine.
> 
> 
> I also don't have any information about Lazar being tested by Pakistan Army.
> 
> 
> 
> There were some talks few years ago that Pakistan showed certain interest in that program, what happened after that, i don't know.


By the way start a thread and tell about your future soldier program in that. I haven't found much details on internet

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> By the way start a thread and tell about your future soldier program in that. I haven't found much details on internet


Some details:

http://www.yugoimport.com/cir/proizvodi/vb-10-vojnik-buducnosti

http://www.blic.rs/vesti/drustvo/srbija-i-azerbejdzan-zajedno-prave-vojnika-buducnosti/fxr6gxp


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## Basel

Just came accross following European gun system, is it good or better then Nora & G-6??






@proka89 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> Just came accross following European gun system, is it good or better then Nora & G-6??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @proka89 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK


it is pzh2000 on a different tracked vehicle and that's it!


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## Basel

Path-Finder said:


> it is pzh2000 on a different tracked vehicle and that's it!



It looks quite effective system only 2 ember crew can oprerate in field.


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> It looks quite effective system only 2 ember crew can oprerate in field.


well the problem would be, that it will have to be driven to operational area like tanks on truck and then made operational, while truck chassis based can be driven and ready to use!


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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> it is pzh2000 on a different tracked vehicle and that's it!


did that system able to do mrsi?


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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> did that system able to do mrsi?


yes that was its party trick that its on board computer could do MRSI

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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> yes that was its party trick that its on board computer could do MRSI


does pakistan have any system capable of that? currently


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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> does pakistan have any system capable of that? currently


I doubt it unless Panter can do it! actually No

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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> I doubt it unless Panter can do it! actually No


does these surbian guns are capable?


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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> does these surbian guns are capable?


best to ask @proka89


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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> best to ask @proka89


According to some info Nora is capable to do MRSI with 3 rounds, but i can't say for sure.

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## Basel

Path-Finder said:


> well the problem would be, that it will have to be driven to operational area like tanks on truck and then made operational, while truck chassis based can be driven and ready to use!



Yes but Pakistan also need advance track mounted 155mm guns as 109s are not in sufficient numbers and PA will need more similar systems and this gun seems good as more 109s are not possible in future.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> Yes but Pakistan also need advance track mounted 155mm guns as 109s are not in sufficient numbers and PA will need more similar systems and this gun seems good as more 109s are not possible in future.


why is M 109 not in sufficient numbers?


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## Basel

Signalian said:


> why is M 109 not in sufficient numbers?



I don't know, but current numbers are below desired requirements, as PA want those with all attacking and defending units specially in areas of Punjab and Sindh bordering India.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> I don't know, but current numbers are below desired requirements, as PA want those with all attacking and defending units specially in areas of Punjab and Sindh bordering India.


The new batch of 115 seems to have been absorbed in older units. if you have info of new SP units raised through induction of these 115, do share.


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## Basel

Signalian said:


> The new batch of 115 seems to have been absorbed in older units. if you have info of new SP units raised through induction of these 115, do share.



Currently had no info regarding this?


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## ali_raza

Basel said:


> Currently had no info regarding this?


what about new orders being formulated what are these for?


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> Yes but Pakistan also need advance track mounted 155mm guns as 109s are not in sufficient numbers and PA will need more similar systems and this gun seems good as more 109s are not possible in future.


The world is moving quickly towards Truck Chassis based Howitzers for a reason! So is PA if 500 wheeled SP are being sought then it is for good reason.

Anything that is tracked will burden you with extra unnecessary logistics which wheeled simply doesn't have.

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## British SAS

Nora and Denel both offer great products... Greater cooperation with both Serbia and South Africa will prove to be fruitful; the latter can assist with the JF-17 programme, amongst other things. I would imagine 'Nora' would be selected on this occasion. Conversely, the 'light artillery' shortage needs to be addressed.. That particular cupboard is bare.

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## mdcp

The denel artiliary is towed with truck and also got option to drive atleast two km on its own and i think that is added advantage


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## ali_raza

mdcp said:


> The denel artiliary is towed with truck and also got option to drive atleast two km on its own and i think that is added advantage


how it drives itself


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## mdcp

ali_raza said:


> how it drives itself[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 379393
> 
> View attachment 379394
> 
> Sorry for mistake, it is basically towed with heavy truck or machinery and also has function that some driver can drive it upto two km with low speed without any vehicle, if you look at front left there is seat for driver and steering etc and it got 4 single tyre ( double axle type) with canon and two tyres with arms used for towing so all in all it got 6 wheels etc

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## ali_raza

maybe some engine is installed or maybe backup power battery power the motors


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## Basel

ali_raza said:


> what about new orders being formulated what are these for?



PA desired full SP Artillery capabilty due to its advantage since long as towed are bit difficult to rapidly deploy, so might be they are trying to achieve that.



Path-Finder said:


> The world is moving quickly towards Truck Chassis based Howitzers for a reason! So is PA if 500 wheeled SP are being sought then it is for good reason.
> 
> Anything that is tracked will burden you with extra unnecessary logistics which wheeled simply doesn't have.



Trackef has its advantages they are good in sindh and areas of punjab wheeled ones are good on roads but in dessert tracked ones are prefered.

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## Super Falcon

Pak should consider G 6 from denel far better faster and offer better protection and in tracked I think Chinese type 45 is far better another option join Turkish programe

Russia also can offer its latest artillery

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## fatman17

Basel said:


> PA desired full SP Artillery capabilty due to its advantage since long as towed are bit difficult to rapidly deploy, so might be they are trying to achieve that.
> 
> 
> 
> Trackef has its advantages they are good in sindh and areas of punjab wheeled ones are good on roads but in dessert tracked ones are prefered.



wheeled SP guns can also be used along the LOC. Pakistan has good GLOCs along the LOC. this could be one reason for interest shown in NORA.

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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> Pak should consider G 6 from denel far better faster and offer better protection and in tracked I think Chinese type 45 is far better another option join Turkish programe
> 
> Russia also can offer its latest artillery


T5-52 from SA and Nora B52 are being looked upon for future wheeled SPH procurement.



> Chinese type 45


You mean PLZ45?
PLZ05 or its development PLZ52 are MUCH BETTER options. However i am not aware if we are currently looking at new tracked options. The current need and interest is in wheeled howitzers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Czech Tatra truck used with the Denel T5-52 - i.e. Tatra T-815-7 - might also be worth manufacturing under license. The Pakistan Army could use it as a common platform for wheeled SPH, MLRS, transport, SAMs, SRBMs, etc. The thing has a payload of 24 tons.

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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> PA desired full SP Artillery capabilty due to its advantage since long as towed are bit difficult to rapidly deploy, so might be they are trying to achieve that.
> 
> 
> 
> Trackef has its advantages they are good in sindh and areas of punjab wheeled ones are good on roads but in dessert tracked ones are prefered.


The French who moved completely from tracked based howitzer to truck mounted Caesar is a great example which works better than tracked in the tropics and deserts of Africa and even in Iraqi desert right now they are shelling ISIS. Truck chassis is always lighter and faster than a tracked vehicle and with a big engine and electronics it can handle sand and mud better!

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## ali_raza

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That Czech Tatra truck used with the Denel T5-52 - i.e. Tatra T-815-7 - might also be worth manufacturing under license. The Pakistan Army could use it as a common platform for wheeled SPH, MLRS, transport, SAMs, SRBMs, etc. The thing has a payload of 24 tons.


we can negotiate it with gun deal.might get a better deal

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That Czech Tatra truck used with the Denel T5-52 - i.e. Tatra T-815-7 - might also be worth manufacturing under license. The Pakistan Army could use it as a common platform for wheeled SPH, MLRS, transport, SAMs, SRBMs, etc. The thing has a payload of 24 tons.


The problem is which institute will manufacture them? AND this is just one problem! 
The best solutiin CAN be to get some private firm involved!

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> wheeled SP guns can also be used along the LOC. Pakistan has good GLOCs along the LOC. this could be one reason for interest shown in NORA.



They can be deployed in punjab and sindh too but strike units may not be prefered with wheeled ones., specially in dessert.

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## Army research

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Arsalan 
Basically PA is mega investing towards shoot and scoot wheeled sph, could it be that they would follow general trend of strategic depth defence as towed would be knocked out quick in modern wars, also this would leave tracked option for our strike corps in south ?

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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Arsalan
> Basically PA is mega investing towards shoot and scoot wheeled sph, could it be that they would follow general trend of strategic depth defence as towed would be knocked out quick in modern wars, also this would leave tracked option for our strike corps in south ?


Plus it gives insight to the modern fire control, computerized targetting and MOST importantky MRSI. This is what we are after otherwise we do operate SH1 already. 

For those who have been following the thread, they will know i am a big fan of MRSI on a personal level and explained tge reasons as well. To me it is big and it is what will keep artillery relevant in comming years as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> The problem is which institute will manufacture them? AND this is just one problem!
> The best solutiin CAN be to get some private firm involved!


Best to order the trucks in large numbers, and then ask Tatra to set up or invest in a subsidiary to manufacture in Pakistan. The Pakistani co-investor could be a split between the MoDP and a private company.

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Plus it gives insight to the modern fire control, computerized targetting and MOST importantky MRSI. This is what we are after otherwise we do operate SH1 already.



Norinco SH-1 badly failed Pakistan Army trials. Reports mentioning sale of 90 howitzers to Pakistan are wrong.



There are rumours that PA is raising two new mechanized divisions. If true, most of the 500 SP howitzers to be acquired will go to these divisions.

Korkut SPAAG will be in Pakistan for trials according to Turkish officials.
There are also unconfirmed reports that Aerospace Long-March International (China) has offered an AD system to Pak.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Norinco SH-1 badly failed Pakistan Army trials. Reports mentioning sale of 90 howitzers to Pakistan are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> There are rumours that PA is raising two new mechanized divisions. If true, most of the 500 SP howitzers to be acquired will go to these divisions.
> 
> Korkut SPAAG will be in Pakistan for trials according to Turkish officials.
> There are also unconfirmed reports that Aerospace Long-March International (China) has offered an AD system to Pak.


We now know that SH-1 failed the trials because we are testing Denel & Nora, But can now say that Panter failed the trials as well because there is nothing indicating that it is serving in any regiment?

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## Super Falcon

Hope we get soom


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## fatman17

Path-Finder said:


> We now know that SH-1 failed the trials because we are testing Denel & Nora, But can now say that Panter failed the trials as well because there is nothing indicating that it is serving in any regiment?



true on each count.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Norinco SH-1 badly failed Pakistan Army trials. Reports mentioning sale of 90 howitzers to Pakistan are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> There are rumours that PA is raising two new mechanized divisions. If true, most of the 500 SP howitzers to be acquired will go to these divisions.
> 
> Korkut SPAAG will be in Pakistan for trials according to Turkish officials.
> There are also unconfirmed reports that Aerospace Long-March International (China) has offered an AD system to Pak.


No sir we did acquired some units of SH1 (can be conformed by SIPRI as well/not basing the argument on that alone.  ) and Panter (the Turkish towed artillery) While the reviews of Panter have been exceptionally BAD the SH1 are just OK. The interest in these two new systems T5 and Nora B52 is because they both offer MUCH more than SH1 does (again, MRSI being one key feature here). Also there is a more than decent demand (500 units) so we are looking at all our options and that is how it should be.

Korkut is for AD duties obviously but i am not aware of that development. However about ALIT we are already operating LY-80 and FN series MANPADS.



Path-Finder said:


> We now know that SH-1 failed the trials because we are testing Denel & Nora, But can now say that Panter failed the trials as well because there is nothing indicating that it is serving in any regiment?





fatman17 said:


> true on each count.


Actually SH1, though not as good as predicted or hoped for are still working in a very limited number (this part i am sure about, the number is 36 i believe but not sure about this). Panter are reportedly getting rust (we bought a few of those as well, one example can be seen at artillery school Nowshera). Both turned out to be not up to the mark. The interested in new SPH is on a large part dependent on this fact as well as the fact that the new options come with lots of goodies and that we are looking for a very decent number so it means it is wise to reevaluate all the options.

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## Cool_Soldier

These wheeled guns are better option as PA need them in Punjab grounds border as well as deserted areas of sindh border.
It looks planning is continued to equip heavily strike division with such weapons to respond quickly Indian Doctrine as they are planning to deploy 500 tanks near border areas along with other weapons.

500 units of modern guns with definitely boost PA fire power deep inside battlefield.

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## Inception-06

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Korkut SPAAG





Arsalan said:


> No sir we did acquired some units of SH1 (can be conformed by SIPRI as well/not basing the argument on that alone.  ) and Panter (the Turkish towed artillery) While the reviews of Panter have been exceptionally BAD the SH1 are just OK. The interest in these two new systems T5 and Nora B52 is because they both offer MUCH more than SH1 does (again, MRSI being one key feature here). Also there is a more than decent demand (500 units) so we are looking at all our options and that is how it should be.
> 
> Korkut is for AD duties obviously but i am not aware of that development. However about ALIT we are already operating LY-80 and FN series MANPADS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually SH1, though not as good as predicted or hoped for are still working in a very limited number (this part i am sure about, the number is 36 i believe but not sure about this). Panter are reportedly getting rust (we bought a few of those as well, one example can be seen at artillery school Nowshera). Both turned out to be not up to the mark. The interested in new SPH is on a large part dependent on this fact as well as the fact that the new options come with lots of goodies and that we are looking for a very decent number so it means it is wise to reevaluate all the options.



Why did we buy Panthers and SH-1 if they are not good enough ? Could they not test it before ordering ? Strange !

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## Cool_Soldier

No, They (Panter, SH-1)are quite good, but current requirement and available options are better than those.
Then we must go for better option as compared to past procurement.

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## Gryphon

MKEK Boran 





Path-Finder said:


> But can now say that Panter failed the trials as well because there is nothing indicating that it is serving in any regiment?



No, it did not.

The first howitzer was handed over to the Nowshera-based School of Artillery in September 2007. ISPR Press Release said an MoU was signed with Turkey to co-produce the Panter.






Simulators were also acquired.






http://www.ssm.gov.tr/urunkatalog/

According to a 2013 *Defense News* article:



> However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.
> 
> Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.



SIPRI reported direct purchase of 12 & local production of 60 Panter's.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Arsalan said:


> No sir we did acquired some units of SH1 (can be conformed by SIPRI as well/not basing the argument on that alone.  ) and Panter (the Turkish towed artillery)
> 
> Actually SH1, though not as good as predicted or hoped for are still working in a very limited number (this part i am sure about, the number is 36 i believe but not sure about this). *Panter are reportedly getting rust (we bought a few of those as well, one example can be seen at artillery school Nowshera).*



Your info about SH-1 is wrong. SIPRI removed the SH-1 info (a year after it was added).

Well, I must ask. Is the rust news from a reliable source or not ?



Ulla said:


> Why did we buy Panthers and SH-1 if they are not good enough ? Could they not test it before ordering ? Strange !



Both were tested.

Reportedly,the SH-1 was tested in December 2007 in GB. Desert trials followed in June 2008. It was again tested in 2013-2014 & rejected (for the second time). No SH-1 was ordered.

Panter's are in service.

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Your info about SH-1 is wrong. SIPRI removed the SH-1 info (a year after it was added).
> 
> *Well, I must ask. Is the rust news from a reliable source or not ?*


YES, it is from someone who was at the artillery school only two months ago and i specifically asked him about both SH1 and Panter. To be honest, he was not aware of any SH1 operational either but i was following what other have been saying and was of view that this piece of info is just not in his notice. However it seem he was right about both.

Panter was also confirmed about someone serving in artillery and posted in Pano Aqil these days.

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> MKEK Boran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it did not.
> 
> The first howitzer was handed over to the Nowshera-based School of Artillery in September 2007. ISPR Press Release said an MoU was signed with Turkey to co-produce the Panter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simulators were also acquired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ssm.gov.tr/urunkatalog/
> 
> According to a 2013 *Defense News* article:
> 
> 
> 
> SIPRI reported direct purchase of 12 & local production of 60 Panter's.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> 
> 
> Your info about SH-1 is wrong. SIPRI removed the SH-1 info (a year after it was added).
> 
> Well, I must ask. Is the rust news from a reliable source or not ?
> 
> 
> 
> Both were tested.
> 
> Reportedly,the SH-1 was tested in December 2007 in GB. Desert trials followed in June 2008. It was again tested in 2013-2014 & rejected (for the second time). No SH-1 was ordered.
> 
> Panter's are in service.


We haven't seen any viable evidence of Panter deployment in the form of pics which usually pop-up once they have been deployed.



Arsalan said:


> YES, it is from someone who was at the artillery school only two months ago and i specifically asked him about both SH1 and Panter. To be honest, he was not aware of any SH1 operational either but i was following what other have been saying and was of view that this piece of info is just not in his notice. However it seem he was right about both.
> 
> Panter was also confirmed about someone serving in artillery and posted in Pano Aqil these days.


So Panter is in service?

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## Gryphon

Arsalan said:


> Panter was also confirmed about someone serving in artillery and posted in Pano Aqil these days.



Did your source say Panter's are in service with Pano Aqil based artillery units or somewhere else ? 



Path-Finder said:


> We haven't seen any viable evidence of Panter deployment in the form of pics which usually pop-up once they have been deployed.



Above picture is likely from School of Artillery, Nowshera. No other pic is available.

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## ali_raza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Did your source say Panter's are in service with Pano Aqil based artillery units or somewhere else ?
> 
> 
> 
> Above picture is likely from School of Artillery, Nowshera. No other pic is available.


why cant we test the equipment properly before ordering

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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Did your source say Panter's are in service with Pano Aqil based artillery units or somewhere else ?
> 
> 
> 
> Above picture is likely from School of Artillery, Nowshera. No other pic is available.


Nops!!!
He was in Noshera and saw one there with the comments that i mentioned.
The guy in Pano Aqil is SEPRATE and completed his training some time back, had the same reviews. Panters are NOT in Pano Aqil!

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> Nops!!!
> He was in Noshera and saw one there with the comments that i mentioned.
> The guy in Pano Aqil is SEPRATE and completed his training some time back, had the same reviews. Panters are NOT in Pano Aqil!


dear what about we move our heavy guns to LOC permanently


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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> dear what about we move our heavy guns to LOC permanently


and why would we do that? I am not EVEN commenting on the HOW part!!

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> and why would we do that? I am not EVEN commenting on the HOW part!!


we are not very deep country once enemy comes in it means they are in our heartland.
we need to be pro active rather then reactive.
india should know the consiquences of messing with us

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## Arsalan

ali_raza said:


> we are not very deep country once enemy comes in it means they are in our heartland.
> we need to be pro active rather then reactive.
> india should know the consiquences of messing with us


and you think that this or any of this can/will be achieved, and i quote:


> what about we move our heavy guns to LOC *permanently*


Still leaving the HOW part alone!! 

You say LOC and you saw PERMANENTLY!! 

Either i am not getting what you are saying or you are suggesting something that to not makes any sense at all.

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## ali_raza

Arsalan said:


> and you think that this or any of this can/will be achieved, and i quote:
> 
> Still leaving the HOW part alone!!
> 
> You say LOC and you saw PERMANENTLY!!
> 
> Either i am not getting what you are saying or you are suggesting something that to not makes any sense at all.


what i mean to say is we should have maximum offensive posture towards enemy.cos we cant afford to lose anything.one small incident and india should be punished so heavily they loose there moral.
the actual idea is to make the war so costly for india that even the idea of it doesn't come in our neighbors banya mind.
about or how part.i have full faith in our military transportation system m sure they can implement this task once given orders.


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## Gryphon

The variant of Nora SP howitzer displayed at IDEAS 2016 is the 155 mm M03 (NORA K-I).


*155 mm M03 (NORA K-I) TRUCK MOUNTED ARTILLERY*

*



*

*



*

*



*

*



*

*



*

*



*

*



*

*



*

In the past decade the needs of contemporary battlefield particularly pointed out the importance of introducing some subsystems and conceptual solutions. In principle, this was announced on the market parallel to the development of the second generation of NORA system, however full development of the subsystems has been completed in the past several years thus creating the third generation of NORA system. The latest technology in design and manufacture were applied in designing of the third generation of NORA, which resulted in multiple savings in time as well as in the increased accuracy. The weapon is modular, which provides for the delivery of a number of different options depending on the user’s choice.

The third generation NORA incorporates a number of new technical solutions such as complete armor protection of all sides of the vehicle which is most notable on the outside, and which has changed general outside appearance of the system.

The introduction of ballistic protection has increased the probability of survival of the weapon when exposed to fragmentation effect of ordnance and missiles. Apart from protection against fragmentation effect, the applied solution of ballistic protection also provides resistance against ambush or effects of small calibre arms, as well as certain resistance of vital parts of the weapon against antipersonnel and anti-vehicle mines and improvised explosive devices.

Introducing auxiliary power unit (APU) intended for power supply of the all subsystems: elevation and traverse mechanism, automatic loader, firing mechanism, front and rear trails increases autonomous engagement of the weapon. (optional)


*“NORA K-I” features the following basic automatic functions:*


Semiautomatic breechblock,
Automatic loader of missiles and powder charges,
Electro-hydraulic laying of the weapon in traverse and elevation,
Automatic line of sight, (optional)
Electric and hydraulic extracting and retracting of front and rear trails,
Navigation and orientation system, (GPS optional INS)
Fire control system.

*DESCRIPTION OF NEW TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS OF THE SUBSYSTEMS APPLIED ON THE THIRD GENERATION NORA*


The modifications introduced on Nora K-I include the following:
Increased speed of assuming firing position and automatic aiming,
Increased precision of determination of own position,
Increased crew security,
Increased weapon mobility,
Increased reliability of all weapon systems,
Increased autonomy,
Decreased number of crew members, and
Decreased fatigue of the crew.
The teared generation incorporates following innovations namely:


Development and manufacture of armor protection system including unique armor assembly for crew cabin and ammunition magazine, as well as armor assembly of the turret with armament system, automatic loader and places for the commander and gunner; as well as anti-mine protection (optional) and armor protection of all fuel tanks;

Development of new software and installation of contemporary equipment for automated navigation system, and automated fire control system;


Redesign of new assemblies of the breech and the breechblock;
Redesign of modified automatic loader,
Introduction of new chassis with higher mobility and bearing capacity,
Development of original system for internal crew communication,
Installation of a radar on the weapon for measurement of muzzle velocity 
Implementation of back-up functions for trail elevation and traverse mechanism

155 mm M03 (NORA K-I) TRUCK MOUNTED ARTILLERY

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## fatman17

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The variant of Nora SP howitzer displayed at IDEAS 2016 is the 155 mm M03 (NORA K-I).
> 
> 
> *155 mm M03 (NORA K-I) TRUCK MOUNTED ARTILLERY*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> In the past decade the needs of contemporary battlefield particularly pointed out the importance of introducing some subsystems and conceptual solutions. In principle, this was announced on the market parallel to the development of the second generation of NORA system, however full development of the subsystems has been completed in the past several years thus creating the third generation of NORA system. The latest technology in design and manufacture were applied in designing of the third generation of NORA, which resulted in multiple savings in time as well as in the increased accuracy. The weapon is modular, which provides for the delivery of a number of different options depending on the user’s choice.
> 
> The third generation NORA incorporates a number of new technical solutions such as complete armor protection of all sides of the vehicle which is most notable on the outside, and which has changed general outside appearance of the system.
> 
> The introduction of ballistic protection has increased the probability of survival of the weapon when exposed to fragmentation effect of ordnance and missiles. Apart from protection against fragmentation effect, the applied solution of ballistic protection also provides resistance against ambush or effects of small calibre arms, as well as certain resistance of vital parts of the weapon against antipersonnel and anti-vehicle mines and improvised explosive devices.
> 
> Introducing auxiliary power unit (APU) intended for power supply of the all subsystems: elevation and traverse mechanism, automatic loader, firing mechanism, front and rear trails increases autonomous engagement of the weapon. (optional)
> 
> 
> *“NORA K-I” features the following basic automatic functions:*
> 
> 
> Semiautomatic breechblock,
> Automatic loader of missiles and powder charges,
> Electro-hydraulic laying of the weapon in traverse and elevation,
> Automatic line of sight, (optional)
> Electric and hydraulic extracting and retracting of front and rear trails,
> Navigation and orientation system, (GPS optional INS)
> Fire control system.
> 
> *DESCRIPTION OF NEW TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS OF THE SUBSYSTEMS APPLIED ON THE THIRD GENERATION NORA*
> 
> 
> The modifications introduced on Nora K-I include the following:
> Increased speed of assuming firing position and automatic aiming,
> Increased precision of determination of own position,
> Increased crew security,
> Increased weapon mobility,
> Increased reliability of all weapon systems,
> Increased autonomy,
> Decreased number of crew members, and
> Decreased fatigue of the crew.
> The teared generation incorporates following innovations namely:
> 
> 
> Development and manufacture of armor protection system including unique armor assembly for crew cabin and ammunition magazine, as well as armor assembly of the turret with armament system, automatic loader and places for the commander and gunner; as well as anti-mine protection (optional) and armor protection of all fuel tanks;
> 
> Development of new software and installation of contemporary equipment for automated navigation system, and automated fire control system;
> 
> 
> Redesign of new assemblies of the breech and the breechblock;
> Redesign of modified automatic loader,
> Introduction of new chassis with higher mobility and bearing capacity,
> Development of original system for internal crew communication,
> Installation of a radar on the weapon for measurement of muzzle velocity
> Implementation of back-up functions for trail elevation and traverse mechanism
> 
> 155 mm M03 (NORA K-I) TRUCK MOUNTED ARTILLERY



if NORA deal is signed 100 will be purchased off-the-shelf and upto 400 will be produced in-house with ToT. this means probably end to further purchases of M109A5

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> if NORA deal is signed 100 will be purchased off-the-shelf and upto 400 will be produced in-house with ToT. this means probably end to further purchases of M109A5


I wonder ... if we are going to manufacture NORA (or whatever wheeled SPH that's picked), then that might mean we'll be manufacturing its 155/52-cal gun too. If so, then this deal could also end future towed howitzer imports too (at least anything heavier than 4,000 kg).

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## Signalian

@HAKIKAT 

Turkish Army will induct T-155 Firtina. will they replace 200+ M-110 A2? 

Whats the future of M-110 A2 in Turkish Army?

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## ZedZeeshan

Signalian said:


> @HAKIKAT
> 
> Turkish Army will induct T-155 Firtina. will they replace 200+ M-110 A2?
> 
> Whats the future of M-110 A2 in Turkish Army?


Junk...


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## Inception-06

ZedZeeshan said:


> Junk...



Junk because of the bad condition, or Junk because of the type it is ?



ZedZeeshan said:


> Junk...



Try to bring more quality in your posts, such posts are not needed here, you must explain and argument or write a whole understandable statement!

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## Signalian

@Ulla @Tipu7 @Basel 
I was checking used american artillery like M-109 and M-110 in friendly countries for acquisition by PA in emergency situations as replacement in war since PA troops are already trained on them. With the relations between USA and Pak deteriorating, and Pakistan SP Artillery all being US origin since 1947, USA many not replace tracked artillery systems in wars due to embargo. Newer mobile artillery will take take years in induction and training. Moroccan Artillery caught my sight as they have 200+ M-109's and Turkey has 200+ M-110. If possible, its better to strike an understanding before war but embargo is possible in war. 
Tracked systems like PLZ-05 and T-155 can be embargo free.

Pakistan fares better in towed artillery inventory but all 155mm systems are US origin, towed and SP. Panter can be excluded due to mixed reviews by PA.

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> @Ulla @Tipu7 @Basel
> I was checking used american artillery like M-109 and M-110 in friendly countries for acquisition by PA in emergency situations as replacement in war since PA troops are already trained on them. With the relations between USA and Pak deteriorating, and Pakistan SP Artillery all being US origin since 1947, USA many not replace tracked artillery systems in wars due to embargo. Newer mobile artillery will take take years in induction and training. Moroccan Artillery caught my sight as they have 200+ M-109's and Turkey has 200+ M-110. If possible, its better to strike an understanding before war but embargo is possible in war.
> Tracked systems like PLZ-05 and T-155 can be embargo free.
> 
> Pakistan fares better in towed artillery inventory but all 155mm systems are US origin, towed and SP. Panter can be excluded due to mixed reviews by PA.


we are opting for truck chassis based guns in the number of 500 according to some sources! as for M-109 they wont get affected so severely so soon. there are many nations making parts and offering upgrades for them so nothing to worry about!

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Ulla @Tipu7 @Basel
> I was checking used american artillery like M-109 and M-110 in friendly countries for acquisition by PA in emergency situations as replacement in war since PA troops are already trained on them. With the relations between USA and Pak deteriorating, and Pakistan SP Artillery all being US origin since 1947, USA many not replace tracked artillery systems in wars due to embargo. Newer mobile artillery will take take years in induction and training. Moroccan Artillery caught my sight as they have 200+ M-109's and Turkey has 200+ M-110. If possible, its better to strike an understanding before war but embargo is possible in war.
> Tracked systems like PLZ-05 and T-155 can be embargo free.
> 
> Pakistan fares better in towed artillery inventory but all 155mm systems are US origin, towed and SP. Panter can be excluded due to mixed reviews by PA.




hahaha, I was thinking the same when I did read that Turkey has 200 M-109 and would replace them, I think we should not only make contracts for war reserves but also try to acquire, upgrade, refurbish and storage it!

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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> hahaha, I was thinking the same when I did read that Turkey has 200 M-109 and would replace them, I we should not only make contracts for war reserves but also try to acquire, upgrade, refurbish and storage it!


200 M-110, not M-109 

You are right, Pakistan needs lots of equipment for storage as replacements and reserve.

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## Tipu7

Unlike aircrafts sanction do not effect armor & big guns as it's ammo & spares can be sourced through multiple channels.
American Artillery is not so special in operation when compared with Chinese, Turkish or Russian counter parts.
We have sufficient tracked artillery and wheeled SPA is need of time. We are evaluating multiple wheeled systems and soon we will introduce new artillery system in armed forces.

India is still working to raise tracked SPA in the form of K9. By that time we will maintain our edge by introducing wheeled SPA which is no where to be seen in case of Indian army acquisition.....



Signalian said:


> @Ulla @Tipu7 @Basel
> I was checking used american artillery like M-109 and M-110 in friendly countries for acquisition by PA in emergency situations as replacement in war since PA troops are already trained on them. With the relations between USA and Pak deteriorating, and Pakistan SP Artillery all being US origin since 1947, USA many not replace tracked artillery systems in wars due to embargo. Newer mobile artillery will take take years in induction and training. Moroccan Artillery caught my sight as they have 200+ M-109's and Turkey has 200+ M-110. If possible, its better to strike an understanding before war but embargo is possible in war.
> Tracked systems like PLZ-05 and T-155 can be embargo free.
> 
> Pakistan fares better in towed artillery inventory but all 155mm systems are US origin, towed and SP. Panter can be excluded due to mixed reviews by PA.

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## SDS1

Signalian said:


> 200 M-110, not M-109
> 
> You are right, Pakistan needs lots of equipment for storage as replacements and reserve.



What is use to buying Old guns they have very less range , wont have any use in Artillery dual.


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## Inception-06

SDS1 said:


> What is use to buying Old guns they have very less range, wont have any use in Artillery dual.



less range because of the caliber 203mm or deterioration
abrasion of the barrels?

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## Umaish Khan

Always a great to hear the army progressing in its capabilities

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## Tipu7

I would love to know about it ...... (If it really exist) 



Gregor Clegane said:


> Our wheeled artillery acquisition program is at a much better stage than Pakistan's wheeled artillery acquisition program.

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## Tipu7

Stories......... 

You do understand what I meant by Wheeled SPA here?

Bring some thing real or do not detail the thread .....



Gregor Clegane said:


> It would be off-topic but several Indian companies(L&T) have tied up with the major companies like Nexter for shelled artillery.
> 
> As per MoD roadmap this will be the path for artillery gun acquisitions from foreign manufacturers:
> Ultra light howitzer then SPHs and then wheeled artillery.
> 
> Anyways back on topic it appears Pakistan does not operate Panters:

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## Inception-06

Gregor Clegane said:


> Our wheeled artillery acquisition program is at a much better stage than Pakistan's wheeled artillery acquisition program.



Why so ?

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## SDS1

Ulla said:


> less range because of the caliber 203mm or deterioration
> abrasion of the barrels?


Range is depend on calibre mostly and not MM, Pak has 203mm guns, India has 155/52 Cal gun with 50+ km range. now check your 203 mm gun range and 155/52cal. gun range


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## Tipu7

Gregor Clegane said:


> Then so is Pakistan's wheeled SPA acquisition program a story.


This is snap of Nora SPA trials (final stages) in Pakistan.

Where is your artillery acquisition?
Still on paper as usual?

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## ali_raza

Tipu7 said:


> This is snap of Nora SPA trials (final stages) in Pakistan.
> 
> Where is your artillery acquisition?
> Still on paper as usual?
> 
> View attachment 381554


do u have the video


----------



## The Eagle

Members! do not quote trolls or any post causing derailing. Simply report without engaging and move-on as this how few trolls expects others to divert the topic.

We are discussing the upgrade program about the need and possible induction as per subject not some contest.

Regards,

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## Inception-06

SDS1 said:


> Range is depend on calibre mostly and not MM, Pak has 203mm guns, India has 155/52 Cal gun with 50+ km range. now check your 203 mm gun range and 155/52cal. gun range



The maximum effective range is different depending on the weapon- type and caliber. 

And the thing about India, yes nice, and good luck.

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## Signalian

@Ulla 

Stop quoting this troll ^^
IA doesnt have any SP gun in inventory currently which can match M-109 or M-110.

By the time IA gets K-9, Pakistan would have finalised for wheeled Artillery platform, a contender Nora B-52 has 56 Km range. IA will never have any edge in SP.

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## Tipu7

Heavy artillery Guns of Pakistan






Wish to see Panter & AH4 in our arsenal to replace old guns.........

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> This is snap of Nora SPA trials (final stages) in Pakistan.
> 
> Where is your artillery acquisition?
> Still on paper as usual?
> 
> View attachment 381554


Its a good gun i hopw Pak will buy it i guess it will End American Era in Pak .

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## proka89

At IDEX 2017 Yugoimport received request from UAE for Nora B 52 to be sent in that country for testing.

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## Basel

How capable South African G-6 is, compared to NORA B-52 gun system?

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## Basel

SDS1 said:


> Kindly provide the Calibre / Range ...
> 
> 
> Are you taking about M109 guns which has Conventional range of of 18Km vs *Indian 2S1 Gvozdika 22km range? *
> 
> I always wonder why you people hide the calibre of guns which shows the guns range
> 
> *FYI , The K-9 also has 56KM range*



Kindly stop spreading lies here, M-109 A5s which Pakistan have can hit 22kms with standard rounds and 30km with base bleed rounds.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109.htm

Till your K-9 arrive PA will also have new truck mounted 155mm/52 cal guns with similar or better range, although few towed Panters are already with PA with similar range.

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## Army research

Trolls aside, can some member please elaborate to me how we intend to use our towed howitzers in war ? Battery set up and shoot and then relocation ? Also how much range would our medium 130 have ?


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## Basel

SDS1 said:


> yes , A5 have 22 km rounds... the same Indian Russian origin , *yes with Rocket Assisted Projectile it can goto 30KM.* While Russian have 21.9km range (std)
> 
> 
> 
> *Can you answer one simple question, how many guns you have which has range 35-40+ km?*
> 
> how many units you have ??
> 150+ *Panters - 155m
> Effective firing range* 18 km (M107), 30 km (M549A1(RAP)), 40 km (ERFB/Base Bleed)
> *Maximum firing range* 40 km (with ERFB/BB round)
> 
> 
> If you are forgetting. *India has 900 M-46 / 130mm which has range of
> Maximum firing range* 27.5 km(unassisted) 38 km(assisted)
> 
> Now out of those 130mm, most of 900 units had been upgraded to 155 mm by Israeli. now u can guess the range.
> 
> BTW ,India almost placed the order and in 2020 India will have all units delivered , you have any date?



PA have till now procure and inducted system much rapidly then IA even Indian members agree on that.

Just see how Panters were inducted also Truck mounted gun trials started when SH-1 arrived so SPA will join PA soon, PA also have M-198 155mm guns in good numbers and M-46, Type-59 130mm are in good numbers too and proved very effective in conflicts with India, POF is making better shells for guns now and in process to improve capability of shells to 21st century standards.


@Tipu7 your experties are needed to handle quoted person so spreading lies can be stopped here.

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## Tipu7

How many guns you have with artillery gun + engine + tracks?

Don't tell me you are living in perception that India has operational & deployed Self propelled artillery. Current Indian fleet of SPA is grounded and no longer exist. Stop relying on wikipedia.



SDS1 said:


> I asked specially, how many numbers of guns you have which fire 35-40+ km range. if you got the figure more then 500 units , then ping me.
> 
> how many guns you intended to Procure? and by When?

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## Tipu7

Kindly do not derail the thread. Answer the thing which I am demanding. A live proof of Indian SPA in active duty will be a pleasant experience. And why are you asking Childish stuff? Max Range Max Range Max Range ........? Why comparing only one parameter of one thing with entirely different thing?

Rest @The Eagle will full fill your quest of knowledge.



SDS1 said:


> here you go....
> http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/01/11/how_the_indian_army_lost_its_catapult_40743
> 
> BTW 130mm upgraded to 155mm from 27 to 39KM range.. cheers ....
> 
> now can you tell me how many Guns you have which has range of 39km + , Number of units?


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## SDS1

Tipu7 said:


> Kindly do not derail the thread. Answer the thing which I am demanding. A live proof of Indian SPA in active duty will be a pleasant experience. And why are you asking Childish stuff? Max Range Max Range Max Range ........? Why comparing only one parameter of one thing with entirely different thing?
> 
> Rest @The Eagle will full fill your quest of knowledge.


Have you read the link before asking a question again? READ IT FIRST then talk. I can post pic also.

*I simply want to know , Just for my information, how many Artillery Guns you have right now which can fire 40km +-2 km range? and *

how many you planning to buy? ( Since your posters claimed you have superior guns and bla bla and cannot able to backup by claims and neither you can)


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## The Eagle

SDS1 said:


> Have you read the link before asking a question again? READ IT FIRST then talk. I can post pic also.
> 
> *I simply want to know , Just for my information, how many Artillery Guns you have right now which can fire 40km +-2 km range? and *
> 
> how many you planning to buy? ( Since your posters claimed you have superior guns and bla bla and cannot able to backup by claims and neither you can)



Go through the thread, read each & every post for information that is shared as available in public domain. Rest about asking for something that should not be told, or none knows, refrain from derailing the topic. The thread is about upgrade discussion.

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## Gryphon

Serial Production Time for KORKUT | en.c4defence.com

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Serial Production Time for KORKUT | en.c4defence.com


Is this still on track for coming to Pakistan for tests/trials?


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## WaLeEdK2

Tipu7 said:


> Heavy artillery Guns of Pakistan
> 
> View attachment 381657
> 
> 
> Wish to see Panter & AH4 in our arsenal to replace old guns.........



Pakistan already operates panters


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## ali_raza

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Pakistan already operates panters


but i heard they are not very good


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Is this still on track for coming to Pakistan for tests/trials?

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## fatman17

SDS1 said:


> Have you read the link before asking a question again? READ IT FIRST then talk. I can post pic also.
> 
> *I simply want to know , Just for my information, how many Artillery Guns you have right now which can fire 40km +-2 km range? and *
> 
> how many you planning to buy? ( Since your posters claimed you have superior guns and bla bla and cannot able to backup by claims and neither you can)



plenty.

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Advocate Pakistan

Did PA evaluate Denel G6 for their wheeled artillery requirements?


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## Zarvan

Zohaib Advocate said:


> Did PA evaluate Denel G6 for their wheeled artillery requirements?


No we haven't evaluated that because are looking for truck mounted artillery gun


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No we haven't evaluated that because are looking for truck mounted artillery gun


Hazrat @Zarvan G6 is wheel based so is anything that is truck mounted!


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## Gregor Clegane

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Pakistan already operates panters


No.
Pakistan has only one Panter it got for trials at Nowshera.
No further panters were delivered.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> No we haven't evaluated that because are looking for truck mounted artillery gun



I wish we get this beast, even the look strikes fear
Denel G6 Rhino






Another view




However if really want something more like a truck than the Swedish Archer is a good system too
Archer




Other view




This carpet thing is a good camouflage idea BTW.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gregor Clegane said:


> No.
> Pakistan has only one Panter it got for trials at Nowshera.
> No further panters were delivered.

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## Gregor Clegane

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 385469


SIPRI has many instances of wrong data, for example for many years it mentioned that India operated SA-24 when no such orders were ever placed.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gregor Clegane said:


> SIPRI has many instances of wrong data, for example for many years it mentioned that India operated SA-24 when no such orders were ever placed.


Ive seen em myself ma nigga.

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## Gregor Clegane

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ive seen em myself ma nigga.


Without proof your words have ZERO credibility, kiddo.
Your own artillery officer confirmed that PA has no Panters:


> Pakistan doesnot operate Panter it failed the trials, only one example is present in Nowshera


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...mps-in-afghanistan.479901/page-2#post-9240734


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## fatman17

Gregor Clegane said:


> SIPRI has many instances of wrong data, for example for many years it mentioned that India operated SA-24 when no such orders were ever placed.


That's true

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## OgaBoga

why Pakistan can not make there own Artillery guns...i mean we are making tanks ...so whats stoping them...


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## fatman17

OgaBoga said:


> why Pakistan can not make there own Artillery guns...i mean we are making tanks ...so whats stoping them...


True but the tank 125mm SBG are imported

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> True but the tank 125mm SBG are imported


I thought they are made at HIT


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## Path-Finder

Maybe we could test this for air defence its similar to the BAE 40mm CTA


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## WaLeEdK2

@fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER which artillery piece is this. It's a little hard to see. If I had to guess it looks a lot like the Panter.


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## WaLeEdK2

Here's a closer pick but the SPH gets in the way a little.


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## Arsalan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> View attachment 385651
> 
> @fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER which artillery piece is this. It's a little hard to see. If I had to guess it looks a lot like the Panter.



Looks like the M198 to me.

Look at the bulkier round section at the base!





Also the barrel diameter varies slightly in middle, same as in the picture you shared. In Panter it is almost the same through out the barrel length.







WaLeEdK2 said:


> View attachment 385657
> 
> 
> Here's a closer pick but the SPH gets in the way a little.


Again, a M198 as far as i can see! 

And thanks for the clearer picture!


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## WaLeEdK2

Yea I think so too.


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## Rocky rock

WaLeEdK2 said:


> View attachment 385651
> 
> @fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER which artillery piece is this. It's a little hard to see. If I had to guess it looks a lot like the Panter.



*1: M110 SPH 203mm
2: M109-A2 SPH 155mm
3: M-198 Howitzer 155mm
4: M114 Howitzer 155mm
5: Type 60 Howitzer 122mm
6: D-30 Howitzer 122mm*


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## MystryMan

fatman17 said:


> True but the tank 125mm SBG are imported


They are made at peoples steel mills?


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## Cool_Soldier

All assets are great indeed

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> True but the tank 125mm SBG are imported





MystryMan said:


> They are made at peoples steel mills?




Blanks were imported from france ... BUT HIT came up with an indigenous gun back in 2011:

http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun barrel 125mm.html
Gun Factory has the capability of producing barrels ranging 105mm to 203mm caliber. It has a long standing experience in manufacture of 105mm Gun Barrel for upgraded T-59 & T-69 IIMP tanks and 125mm Guns/Barrels for the ongoing programmes of Tank Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar. The auto frettaged barrels are manufactured fro very high quality electro slag refined steel. Each barrel is processed through precision machining operations and subjected to stringten control parameters.




http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun-f.html


Gun Factory is an ISO certified factory which was established during 1992. Initially only 105 mm rifled bore tank gun barrel was machined in the factory but with enhancement of skill and absorption of modern state of the art technology Gun Factory is now capable to produce 125 mm smooth bore autofrettaged chrome plated tank gun.



*Locally-produced gun delivered to HIT for tanks*
FROM THE NEWSPAPERPUBLISHED APR 17, 2011 11:22PM


ISLAMABAD, April 17: *The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks.*

So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre 'blanks' from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.


*The first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army -- the end-user.*

An HIT official told Dawn that the army had given a go-ahead for the production of 50 125mm barrels for the two MBTs at the HMC after a joint team assured it of meeting strict standards.

According to sources, the army and the HIT wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a minute, and for the automatic ammunition handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire magazine of Al-Khalid tank.

The official said that the manufacturing of the first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the Strategic Plans Division (SPD) set up in 2000 to improve the control of nuclear operations and monitor and develop coordination among various defence production and research organisations in the country.

*The specialised weapons grade steel was manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities under the heavy forge and foundry section.* The block of specialised metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel.

The HMC also has specialised facilities of large vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat treatments several times. Since it was the first job for the HMC, experts from other defence organisations monitored the process which took almost two to three months to complete.

The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50 barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel procured from France.

The official said that after the completion of 50 tank barrels, *the HMC would consider producing artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.*

Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59 tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and III now under way at the HIT.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Arsalan said:


> No sir we did acquired some units of SH1 (can be conformed by SIPRI as well/not basing the argument on that alone.  ) and Panter (the Turkish towed artillery) While the reviews of Panter have been exceptionally BAD the SH1 are just OK. The interest in these two new systems T5 and Nora B52 is because they both offer MUCH more than SH1 does (again, MRSI being one key feature here). Also there is a more than decent demand (500 units) so we are looking at all our options and that is how it should be.
> 
> Korkut is for AD duties obviously but i am not aware of that development. However about ALIT we are already operating LY-80 and FN series MANPADS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually SH1, though not as good as predicted or hoped for are still working in a very limited number (this part i am sure about, the number is 36 i believe but not sure about this). Panter are reportedly getting rust (we bought a few of those as well, one example can be seen at artillery school Nowshera). Both turned out to be not up to the mark. The interested in new SPH is on a large part dependent on this fact as well as the fact that the new options come with lots of goodies and that we are looking for a very decent number so it means it is wise to reevaluate all the options.



According to the Turkish media, Panter is already being put into action by the Turkish army. Have they made improvements since the ones available in Pak?



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> MKEK Boran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it did not.
> 
> The first howitzer was handed over to the Nowshera-based School of Artillery in September 2007. ISPR Press Release said an MoU was signed with Turkey to co-produce the Panter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simulators were also acquired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ssm.gov.tr/urunkatalog/
> 
> According to a 2013 *Defense News* article:
> 
> 
> 
> SIPRI reported direct purchase of 12 & local production of 60 Panter's.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> 
> 
> Your info about SH-1 is wrong. SIPRI removed the SH-1 info (a year after it was added).
> 
> Well, I must ask. Is the rust news from a reliable source or not ?
> 
> 
> 
> Both were tested.
> 
> Reportedly,the SH-1 was tested in December 2007 in GB. Desert trials followed in June 2008. It was again tested in 2013-2014 & rejected (for the second time). No SH-1 was ordered.
> 
> Panter's are in service.



_Teshekkurlar Arkadashim!!_ Relieved!!!


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

proka89 said:


> Serbia is developing ALAS and SPIDER missiles. ALAS is ground to ground, or sea to ground missile, and SPIDER can be also fired from the helicopters. You should know that MANPAD is short from *MAN* *P*ortable *A*ir *D*efense system. ALAS and SPIDER are not air defence systems. And they are not meant to be carried by a single soldier, both those rockets are to big for something like that.


Good to see the Serb folks back into weapons manufacturing business!!! They were very good during Tito's time. Sorry to be back to the past!!!

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## fatman17

Rocky rock said:


> *1: M110 SPH 203mm
> 2: M109-A2 SPH 155mm
> 3: M-198 Howitzer 155mm
> 4: M114 Howitzer 155mm
> 5: Type 60 Howitzer 122mm
> 6: D-30 Howitzer 122mm*


Chinese copy of D30


----------



## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Blanks were imported from france ... BUT HIT came up with an indigenous gun back in 2011:
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun barrel 125mm.html
> Gun Factory has the capability of producing barrels ranging 105mm to 203mm caliber. It has a long standing experience in manufacture of 105mm Gun Barrel for upgraded T-59 & T-69 IIMP tanks and 125mm Guns/Barrels for the ongoing programmes of Tank Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar. The auto frettaged barrels are manufactured fro very high quality electro slag refined steel. Each barrel is processed through precision machining operations and subjected to stringten control parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun-f.html
> 
> 
> Gun Factory is an ISO certified factory which was established during 1992. Initially only 105 mm rifled bore tank gun barrel was machined in the factory but with enhancement of skill and absorption of modern state of the art technology Gun Factory is now capable to produce 125 mm smooth bore autofrettaged chrome plated tank gun.
> 
> 
> 
> *Locally-produced gun delivered to HIT for tanks*
> FROM THE NEWSPAPERPUBLISHED APR 17, 2011 11:22PM
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, April 17: *The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks.*
> 
> So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre 'blanks' from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.
> 
> 
> *The first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army -- the end-user.*
> 
> An HIT official told Dawn that the army had given a go-ahead for the production of 50 125mm barrels for the two MBTs at the HMC after a joint team assured it of meeting strict standards.
> 
> According to sources, the army and the HIT wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a minute, and for the automatic ammunition handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire magazine of Al-Khalid tank.
> 
> The official said that the manufacturing of the first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the Strategic Plans Division (SPD) set up in 2000 to improve the control of nuclear operations and monitor and develop coordination among various defence production and research organisations in the country.
> 
> *The specialised weapons grade steel was manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities under the heavy forge and foundry section.* The block of specialised metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel.
> 
> The HMC also has specialised facilities of large vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat treatments several times. Since it was the first job for the HMC, experts from other defence organisations monitored the process which took almost two to three months to complete.
> 
> The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50 barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel procured from France.
> 
> The official said that after the completion of 50 tank barrels, *the HMC would consider producing artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.*
> 
> Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59 tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and III now under way at the HIT.


Certainly news to me but now that the steel mill is shut, it seems back to square one.


----------



## Arsalan

HAKIKAT said:


> According to the Turkish media, Panter is already being put into action by the Turkish army. Have they made improvements since the ones available in Pak?
> 
> 
> 
> _Teshekkurlar Arkadashim!!_ Relieved!!!


May be they did made those improvements, may be it was just our conditions that hampered the performance of Panters!!


----------



## fatman17

Land Platforms

Enhanced capability for WMA029 mortar system

Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

23 March 2017

The WMA029 (PLL-05) SPHM is capable of operating with two guided mortar bombs. Source: Christopher F Foss

China North Industries Corporation's (NORINCO's) WMA029 6x6 self-propelled howitzer-mortar (SPHM) has been qualified to operate with at least two 120 mm guided mortar bombs: the GP120 and GP120A.

The use of the guided munitions is intended to provide the 120 mm rifled main gun with an enhanced precision effect.

The GP120 (also referred to as the GP4) is a terminal corrected 120 mm mortar bomb; it is 1,080 mm long, weighs 18 kg, and is used in conjunction with a normal clip on mortar propelling charge system. Terminal correction is achieved during the final stages using impulse thrusters located near the mortar bomb's centre of gravity.

According to NORINCO the GP120 has a minimum range of 1 km and a maximum range of 6 km. It is claimed to have a circular error probable (CEP) of not more than 5 m.

The GP120A (also referred to as GP9) utilises semi-active laser (SAL) guidance and like the GP120 also has the standard clip-on change system.

In this case terminal correction is achieved during flight via four flip-out control fins located further forward than the thrusters used in the GP120.

Terminal correction for the GP120 is undertaken during the final stages using impulse thrusters located near the mortar bomb's centre of gravity. (Christopher F Foss)

The GP120A has an overall length of 980 mm and a launch weight of 20 kg; NORINCO is quoting a minimum range of 2 km and a maximum range of 7.5 km. It is designed to engage stationary and moving targets, and has a claimed hit probability against moving vehicles of 90% when the target is moving at a speed of less than 36 km/h.

In order to designate the target, the GP120A is used in conjunction with either the Laser Target Designator Rangefinder (LTDR OL1), which has a maximum range of 5 km, or the LTDR 0L2 (7.5 km).

It is understood that Chinese industry has also developed a 120 mm mortar bomb carrying two top attack anti-armour submunitions, similar to that used in a 155 mm artillery projectile.








Pakistan Army has a long standing requirement for a mobile 120mm mobile system.


----------



## Thorough Pro

watch the full vid, it gives details of all guns








WaLeEdK2 said:


> View attachment 385651
> 
> @fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER which artillery piece is this. It's a little hard to see. If I had to guess it looks a lot like the Panter.

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## fatman17

M110 is obsolete. should be put in reserve.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> True but the tank 125mm SBG are imported


Sir, sorry to contradict you but the barrels are being made in Pakistan for some years now. I am sure of at least 3 batches of 50 barrels each made at a factory in taxila. That is when dad retired and we moved to Faisalabad. So while i cannot vouch for on going production but i can confirm that they were being made in Pakistan and it is likely that they still are.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

MKEK develops new SP artillery system

Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

07 April 2017

Turkey's Makina ve Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu (MKEK) is developing a 155 mm self-propelled (SP) artillery system based on a 6x6 cross-country chassis.

Scale model of the Turkish 155 mm self-propelled artillery system, based on a 6x6 cross-country chassis, with stabiliser lowered at the rear. (Christopher F Foss)

The vehicle mounts the 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance taken from the MKEK Panter towed artillery system at its rear. Panter is in service with the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC).

The system has a gross vehicle weight of 20 tonnes and is powered by a diesel developing 473 hp coupled to an automatic transmission. This gives a maximum road speed of 60 km/h with a range of 600 km. The vehicle has a fully enclosed four-door forward control cab.

The 155 mm/52 calibre weapon is fitted with a muzzle brake with elevation and traverse being powered with manual back-up. Like other systems of this type, when deployed in the firing position a large spade is lowered at the rear.

The maximum range depends on the 155 mm projectile/charge combination. It is stated as being 39 km when firing the locally developed MKEK 155 mm high-explosive extended range (HE ER) Mod 274 projectile. This has a TNT filling and weighs 45.35 kg complete with lifting plug, and has a maximum muzzle velocity of 945 m/s.

When firing the older US 155 mm M107 HE projectile a maximum range of 18.5 km is claimed. It can also fire the 155 mm M549A1 HE rocket-assisted projectile (RAP) out to a claimed maximum range of 30 km.

A flick rammer is installed to increase the rate of fire and reduce crew fatigue. A maximum rate of fire of six 155 mm rounds per minute can be achieved.

MKEK (Mechanical and Chemical Industries Corporation) has extensive experience in the design, development, and production of barrels, including 105 mm and 120 mm tank barrels and 155 mm 39/calibre and 152/52 calibre artillery barrels. The latter are for the Panther 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery system and Firtina 155 mm/52 calibre tracked SP artillery system used by the TLFC.

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## Zarvan

So guys what happened to those trials which were taking place of Truck Mounted Artillery Guns ?


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> So guys what happened to those trials which were taking place of Truck Mounted Artillery Guns ?


You mean the serbian and south African guns. no further news except that the serbian gun may have the inside track but with the defence collaboration agreement with RSA, things could change.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> You mean the serbian and south African guns. no further news except that the serbian gun may have the inside track but with the defence collaboration agreement with RSA, things could change.


Yes exactly those ones well I am waiting for the decision to be made soon we should also work with South Africa in developing a 155 MM Towed Light Weight Artillery Gun


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Yes exactly those ones well I am waiting for the decision to be made soon we should also work with South Africa in developing a 155 MM Towed Light Weight Artillery Gun


It's a big order 400 to 500 guns so could take a while to decide.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Land Platforms
> 
> MKEK develops new SP artillery system
> 
> Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 07 April 2017
> 
> Turkey's Makina ve Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu (MKEK) is developing a 155 mm self-propelled (SP) artillery system based on a 6x6 cross-country chassis.
> 
> Scale model of the Turkish 155 mm self-propelled artillery system, based on a 6x6 cross-country chassis, with stabiliser lowered at the rear. (Christopher F Foss)
> 
> The vehicle mounts the 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance taken from the MKEK Panter towed artillery system at its rear. Panter is in service with the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC).
> 
> The system has a gross vehicle weight of 20 tonnes and is powered by a diesel developing 473 hp coupled to an automatic transmission. This gives a maximum road speed of 60 km/h with a range of 600 km. The vehicle has a fully enclosed four-door forward control cab.
> 
> The 155 mm/52 calibre weapon is fitted with a muzzle brake with elevation and traverse being powered with manual back-up. Like other systems of this type, when deployed in the firing position a large spade is lowered at the rear.
> 
> The maximum range depends on the 155 mm projectile/charge combination. It is stated as being 39 km when firing the locally developed MKEK 155 mm high-explosive extended range (HE ER) Mod 274 projectile. This has a TNT filling and weighs 45.35 kg complete with lifting plug, and has a maximum muzzle velocity of 945 m/s.
> 
> When firing the older US 155 mm M107 HE projectile a maximum range of 18.5 km is claimed. It can also fire the 155 mm M549A1 HE rocket-assisted projectile (RAP) out to a claimed maximum range of 30 km.
> 
> A flick rammer is installed to increase the rate of fire and reduce crew fatigue. A maximum rate of fire of six 155 mm rounds per minute can be achieved.
> 
> MKEK (Mechanical and Chemical Industries Corporation) has extensive experience in the design, development, and production of barrels, including 105 mm and 120 mm tank barrels and 155 mm 39/calibre and 152/52 calibre artillery barrels. The latter are for the Panther 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery system and Firtina 155 mm/52 calibre tracked SP artillery system used by the TLFC.
> 
> View attachment 389742


I think we will keep our distance from the. The Turkish Panters responded poorly and unless there are huge improvements and everything is verified by trials and evaulation in the field, we will keep away from these.

For now the major interest is in the wheeled SPH and is likely to be followed by tracked ones. With no real option in light weight towed artillery that can be carried by OUR helicopter fleet this will take some more time. For tracked SPH, we are likely to look towards USA.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> So guys what happened to those trials which were taking place of Truck Mounted Artillery Guns ?


Hazrat which gun are you supporting? the Serbian.






Denel T5


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat which gun are you supporting? the Serbian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Denel T5


I don't know it feels that moving Serbian Gun is a little difficult the way it's made but it depends on tests. South Africa has the issue of its truck being made by Indian company so I am a little confused here. But as South Africa has a bigger defence industry I think we may opt for South African one. I have no clue on this Which one you support or let say want to win ?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I don't know it feels that moving Serbian Gun is a little difficult the way it's made but it depends on tests. South Africa has the issue of its truck being made by Indian company so I am a little confused here. But as South Africa has a bigger defence industry I think we may opt for South African one. I have no clue on this Which one you support or let say want to win ?


NO Hazrat its NOT indian truck its CZECH! Same country CZ comes from!!

http://www.tatratrucks.com/trucks/customer-segment-catalog/defence/

You got confused with TATA. its TATRA!!!


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I don't know it feels that moving Serbian Gun is a little difficult the way it's made but it depends on tests. South Africa has the issue of its truck being made by Indian company so I am a little confused here. But as South Africa has a bigger defence industry I think we may opt for South African one. I have no clue on this Which one you support or let say want to win ?


Wel.... if i may.... the trucks are not made by India and there is this Czech option for trucks. TATRA.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> NO Hazrat its NOT indian truck its CZECH! Same country CZ comes from!!
> 
> http://www.tatratrucks.com/trucks/customer-segment-catalog/defence/
> 
> You got confused with TATA. its TATRA!!!


Okay it was Indians who confused me than it depends on tests but the way Nora is designed I don't it has lots of chacnes and recent deal with South Africa also puts South African on front


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Okay it was Indians who confused me than it depends on tests but the way Nora is designed I don't it has lots of chacnes and recent deal with South Africa also puts South African on front


that's not the only confusion ahem!! Hazrat is there a source behind you claim that Denel is ahead of Nora? can you be clear on why Nora design is not suitable??


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> that's not the only confusion ahem!! Hazrat is there a source behind you claim that Denel is ahead of Nora? can you be clear on why Nora design is not suitable??


No that is my assumption but now I will try to find out what is happening with tests


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> No that is my assumption but now I will try to find out what is happening with tests


Please do we are always looking forward to hear from your sources.


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## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> You mean the serbian and south African guns. no further news except that the serbian gun may have the inside track but with the defence collaboration agreement with RSA, things could change.








i wish they select this one T5-52 155mm south african.

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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> View attachment 389866
> 
> 
> i wish they select this one T5-52 155mm south african.


A friend just told me that a HIT delegation was recently in South Africa and visited Denel company also @Path-Finder but can't say whether it's selected or they were actually visiting for something else. I hope they also had MRAP in mind

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> A friend just told me that a HIT delegation was recently in South Africa and visited Denel company also @Path-Finder but can't say whether it's selected or they were actually visiting for something else. I hope they also had MRAP in mind


We need MRAP's more urgently than artillery that is a fact. Combination of MRAP and Artillery is a win win situation so South Africa will have an edge on this.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> We need MRAP's more urgently than artillery that is a fact. Combination of MRAP and Artillery is a win win situation so South Africa will have an edge on this.


Can't agree more these Toyota Trucks are death trap even a cracker results in death of our soldiers. We have lost so many lives due to stupid Toyota Trucks we need MRAP and South Africa makes best ones that is why USA comes to them for MRAP we should take at least two to three different MRAP with TOT from them. According to @Bilal Khan (Quwa) UAE boughts right of NIMR MRAP only in 60 million dollars


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## Basel

Which SA gun we are testing, G-6 or T-5??

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/g6_52.htm

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/t5_52.htm


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> A friend just told me that a HIT delegation was recently in South Africa and visited Denel company also @Path-Finder but can't say whether it's selected or they were actually visiting for something else. I hope they also had MRAP in mind



They should've go for this one it's much more advance than "Nora" and if we start this project in JV it would surely boost our industry. 

But the chances of visit could also be for "A-darter" and "Umkhonto IR ADF". Because there isn't any such talk going for MRAP from SA?

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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> They should've go for this one it's much more advance than "Nora" and if we start this project in JV it would surely boost our industry.
> 
> But the chances of visit could also be for "A-darter" and "Umkhonto IR ADF". Because there isn't any such talk going for MRAP from SA?


HIT delegation won't visit South Africa for A-Darter or Air Defence systems those are dealt by different guys. HIT guys were either there for Artillery or MRAP



Basel said:


> Which SA gun we are testing, G-6 or T-5??


We are testing T5


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## Rocky rock

Basel said:


> Which SA gun we are testing, G-6 or T-5??



We've tested T5-52 155 SPH. but most of our friends here were advising to go for G6.


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> HIT delegation won't visit South Africa for A-Darter or Air Defence systems those are dealt by different guys. HIT guys were either there for Artillery or MRAP
> 
> 
> We are testing T5


Why G-6 is not included both are good, G-6 hit longer while T-5 can fire faster.


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> HIT delegation won't visit South Africa for A-Darter or Air Defence systems those are dealt by different guys. HIT guys were either there for Artillery or MRAP



Sorry my bad i just missed the HIT part, than it must be T5-52  Get ready to test some shots on LOC.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Can't agree more these Toyota Trucks are death trap even a cracker results in death of our soldiers. We have lost so many lives due to stupid Toyota Trucks we need MRAP and South Africa makes best ones that is why USA comes to them for MRAP we should take at least two to three different MRAP with TOT from them. According to @Bilal Khan (Quwa) UAE boughts right of NIMR MRAP only in 60 million dollars



Even Buffel from the 70's will be enough for us Buffel can be upgraded like this and of course it is cheap and expendable;














Sri Lanka is still using them for over 30 years now and they are still going strong!!


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## pzfz

t5-52. It's the same gun as the g6-52 just different platform (the uae has the 45 cal gun not the 52). The T5 affords more flexibility as you can usually decouple the gun and the cockpit/engine/chassis and use it as a powered-towed howitzer. two birds with one stone.


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## Basel

Rocky rock said:


> We've tested T5-52 155 SPH. but most of our friends here were advising to go for G6.



Specs of G-6:






Specs of T-5:


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Even Buffle from the 70's will be enough for us Buffle can be upgraded like this and of course it is cheap and expendable;
> View attachment 389867
> View attachment 389868
> View attachment 389869
> View attachment 389870
> 
> 
> Sri Lanka is still using them for over 30 years now and they are still going strong!!


What the HELL is this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> What the HELL is this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Its Buffel MRAP. the daddy or granddaddy of all MRAP's but its modernised!
this is original Buffel


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> What the HELL is this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



 yea it looks weird. 

but i think the truth is we couldn't afford MRAP's for whole army. we must find something which is cheaper in terms of price and maintenance but can keep our soldiers safe. and that thing is M113 or Hamza APC.


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> yea it looks weird.
> 
> but i think the truth is we couldn't afford MRAP's for whole army. we must find something which is cheaper in terms of price and maintenance but can keep our soldiers safe. and that thing is M113 or Hamza APC.


Dude 1000 to 1500 MRAP in operational areas are more than enough


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> Dude 1000 to 1500 MRAP in operational areas are more than enough



Couldn't even bear the fare of 1.5k so this is the only policy of PA which'll fill the gap until any new project comes to fruition with TOT like M113.


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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> yea it looks weird.
> 
> but i think the truth is we couldn't afford MRAP's for whole army. we must find something which is cheaper in terms of price and maintenance but can keep our soldiers safe. and that thing is M113 or Hamza APC.


This MRAP has been in service with Sri Lanka and Its cheaper than buying toyota pickups. if a IED goes off under a toyota pick up their will be guaranteed fatalities. Now Sri Lanka has built these under license from South Africa since 1986 and it has saved countless lives. All it is a Chassis of a Mercedes Unimog Truck with Mercedes engine and armored compartment and V shaped hull. If Sri Lanka can build them why can't we?

Our lohar ruler can build them if he so wishes 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn_APC

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## Rocky rock

Path-Finder said:


> This MRAP has been in service with Sri Lanka and Its cheaper than buying toyota pickups. if a IED goes off under a toyota pick up their will be guaranteed fatalities. Now Sri Lanka has built these under license from South Africa since 1986 and it has saved countless lives. All it is a Chassis of a Mercedes Unimog Truck with Mercedes engine and armored compartment and V shaped hull. If Sri Lanka can build them why can't we?
> 
> Our lohar ruler can build them if he so wishes
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn_APC



so what's so bad with M113 and Hamza APC? they're filling the gap quite well.


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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> so what's so bad with M113 and Hamza APC? they're filling the gap quite well.


 they do not have the V shaped hull. Its is all about the V shaped hull that deflects the blast away. 
The APC like M113 when a IED goes off all the blast is absorbed and it blows the APC killing troops. Buffel for example is higher off the ground so if the chassis is damaged its no loss at all because its made from cheap components. The troops can repair it if not just leave it as it is.

Most important thing is troops survive it, far too many IEDs/ambushes have killed officers and jawans. those who survive have injuries for life all because they were in pickups.

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## Advocate Pakistan

I thought we were discussing artillery here and not APC and MRAPs.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> that's not the only confusion ahem!! Hazrat is there a source behind you claim that Denel is ahead of Nora? can you be clear on why Nora design is not suitable??


I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!

You are such as a**!!!


Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).

AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs



Basel said:


> Which SA gun we are testing, G-6 or T-5??
> 
> http://www.military-today.com/artillery/g6_52.htm
> 
> http://www.military-today.com/artillery/t5_52.htm



T5-52.



Basel said:


> Why G-6 is not included both are good, G-6 hit longer while T-5 can fire faster.





pzfz said:


> t5-52. It's the same gun as the g6-52 just different platform (the uae has the 45 cal gun not the 52). The T5 affords more flexibility as you can usually decouple the gun and the cockpit/engine/chassis and use it as a powered-towed howitzer. two birds with one stone.


G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!
> 
> You are such as a**!!!
> 
> 
> Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).
> 
> AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs
> 
> 
> 
> T5-52.
> 
> 
> 
> G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)





I will however say that Buffel MRAP the one I mentioned is far far cheaper than the other ones available like MAXXPRO and Toyota pickup plus we can get them for peanuts. Literally peanuts, Sri Lanka is making them under license and so can we. My whole argument is Buffel is far better protection than the death trap Toyota Pickups. If Buffle can Survive the extremely harsh environment like Namibia then it will be absolutely at home in Pakistan. @denel can back me up here!


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!
> 
> You are such as a**!!!
> 
> 
> Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).
> 
> AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs
> 
> 
> 
> T5-52.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)


UAE got rights for producing quality MRAP in 63 million dollars not that expensive if we have the will. A soldier dying paying his family and giving plots and taking care if injure cost lot more but to understand that common sense is needed which sorry but our leadership is not showing. I forgot recruiting and training new guys.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> UAE got rights for producing quality MRAP in 63 million dollars not that expensive if we have the will. A soldier dying paying his family and giving plots and taking care if injure cost lot more but to understand that common sense is needed which sorry but our leadership is not showing. I forgot recruiting and training new guys.


As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.


You are ready to sent more money on when tragedy has taken place but not ready to prevent it from happening in first place. Really Genius Thoughts

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> You are ready to sent more money on when tragedy has taken place but not ready to prevent it from happening in first place. Really Genius Thoughts


I am ready to only as much money as available. Do not like building castles in the air.
Your post confirms that you have absolutely no idea how many pick-ups and trucks are there in use of our army, if you do you would have understood what i meant. Go check the numbers and then tell what you think about it. The MRAPs are and will be for hot zones alone. Do not expect them to be running around in Islamabad (even if there is that risk of terror strikes, this is just not feasible to move all troops in MRAPs) NO ONE DOES!!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.


It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.






Speaking of artillery, might be worth talking to Denel about the G7 Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO). Weighing 3,800 kg, our Mi-171s can carry them.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.


Brilliant!! (if better than Pick-ups)
Still sir i hope you know that we will need around 10000 of these to replace all pick-ups! 
12000 something to be more precise. Wont be feasible. The Pick-ups are likely to stay for routine transportation and tasks. However these do offer a much more sensible replacement than having 12000 MRAPs running around gulping down that imported fuel.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Brilliant!!
> Still sir i hope you know that we will need around 10000 of these to replace all pick-ups!
> 12000 something to be more precise. Wont be feasible. The Pick-ups are likely to stay for routine transportation and tasks. However these do offer a much more sensible replacement than having 12000 MRAPs running around gulping down that imported fuel.


They can gradually replace those 12,000 vehicles over a 40-50 year period. There's no difference between an old Humvee and a new Humvee to the casual observer.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They can gradually replace those 12,000 vehicles over a 40-50 year period. There's no difference between an old Humvee and a new Humvee to the casual observer.


Yup, THESE as i mentioned make a much more sensible replacement option and that too over an extended period of time as you suggested. They are more like stronger better protected Pick-Up trucks. On other hand the MRAPs are a special platform and will find wide application in special fields and scenarios. Will however love if we can acquire the MRAPs in large number to meet our war time needs and also serve in conflict zones against the terrorists (that is where they are most useful). What numbers would you suggest? 800-1200 units perhaps? We must look for a good supplier and sign a ToT. (Currently we are looking to US for those used ones but that will have to change as they are very expensive to operate)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Yup, THESE as i mentioned make a much more sensible replacement option and that too over an extended period of time as you suggested. They are more like stronger better protected Pick-Up trucks. On other hand the MRAPs are a special platform and will find wide application in special fields and scenarios. Will however love if we can acquire the MRAPs in large number to meet our war time needs and also serve in conflict zones against the terrorists (that is where they are most useful). What numbers would you suggest? 800-1200 units perhaps? We must look for a good supplier and sign a ToT. (Currently we are looking to US for those used ones but that will have to change as they are very expensive to operate)


Since the PA isn't pushing for local MRAP production at this point, I don't think they'll cross 300 vehicles. It's beginning to seem like COIN operations are drawing down, at least to an extent where the Army in mass isn't needed. Long-term, I think GHQ will want to pass COIN to a nimbler force comprising of specialist Army, FC and LEAs.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of artillery, might be worth talking to Denel about the G7 Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO). Weighing 3,800 kg, our Mi-171s can carry them.


Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.






I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!


Yea, but the Humvee was mentioned in the context of general utility, not COIN.

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## Army research

Path-Finder said:


> Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!


Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> ...anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?


Unlikely since Pakistan didn't really pursue the towed Panter @Arsalan

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## Arsalan

Army research said:


> Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?



Unlikely.

I have heard on this forum that Turkish have done some modification in the gun system and that they are fully operation with Turkish armed forces now. However as far as PA is concerned they were not very impressed with the system. The only possibility will be that we get to see that modified gun, it suites our needs and then we opt for the same technology, both in the towed guns in shape of Panter and also the upcoming wheeled SPH version if the same. However as mentioned by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is all very unlikely. For now, T5-52 and Nora B52 are the two options and we are going for one of them. The next step (logically) will be tracked SPH and our first choice is likely to me more M109s from USA. However there are some very impressive Chinese options available as well.

Personally, i will like our top brass to work on a universal modular platform on the lines of Armata. Get one hull that then meets our needs of next generation tank, SPH, IFVs, Recovery Vehicle, APC and may be even anti-air point defence system. This will be a long term solution. The basic idea will be to design or seek a modern hull with good design features and excellent materials and couple it with two or may be even three different types of engines to make the basic platform for all the above mentioned roles. For examples, a 1500hp engine for the tank and a 1200hp or even 800hp for SPH, IFV and other stuff. Next is a modern APS suite, ideally with some hard kill mechanism to be fitted where required. This will address our needs for coming decades and we can focus our energies on other things as the mechanized divisions will be able to handle pretty much anything our adversary an throw at them and will give us our own ARMATA! I just wish the concept is there. We may seek other systems in relatively lower numbers to get our hands on all the required technologies. Like dealing with Ukraine in tanks (OPLOT version) may give us access to that engine tech. We can do the same for other sub systems, get the best bang for buck from various suppliers and use it all to make a tailor made platform to meet all our needs.

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?


If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8





@Path-Finder @Arsalan


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Unlikely.
> 
> I have heard on this forum that Turkish have done some modification in the gun system and that they are fully operation with Turkish armed forces now. However as far as PA is concerned they were not very impressed with the system. The only possibility will be that we get to see that modified gun, it suites our needs and then we opt for the same technology, both in the towed guns in shape of Panter and also the upcoming wheeled SPH version if the same. However as mentioned by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is all very unlikely. For now, T5-52 and Nora B52 are the two options and we are going for one of them. The next step (logically) will be tracked SPH and our first choice is likely to me more M109s from USA. However there are some very impressive Chinese options available as well.
> 
> Personally, i will like our top brass to work on a universal modular platform on the lines of Armata. Get one hull that then meets our needs of next generation tank, SPH, IFVs, Recovery Vehicle, APC and may be even anti-air point defence system. This will be a long term solution. The basic idea will be to design or seek a modern hull with good design features and excellent materials and couple it with two or may be even three different types of engines to make the basic platform for all the above mentioned roles. For examples, a 1500hp engine for the tank and a 1200hp or even 800hp for SPH, IFV and other stuff. Next is a modern APS suite, ideally with some hard kill mechanism to be fitted where required. This will address our needs for coming decades and we can focus our energies on other things as the mechanized divisions will be able to handle pretty much anything our adversary an throw at them and will give us our own ARMATA! I just wish the concept is there. We may seek other systems in relatively lower numbers to get our hands on all the required technologies. Like dealing with Ukraine in tanks (OPLOT version) may give us access to that engine tech. We can do the same for other sub systems, get the best bang for buck from various suppliers and use it all to make a tailor made platform to meet all our needs.


Be it the NORA B-52, T5-52 or (for discussion's sake) Panter, media rumours have it that Pakistan will seek to manufacture 80% of its order domestically. If they're finally going to pull in a 155 mm gun, then I suspect it'll be for towed, wheeled SPH and, in time, tracked SPH. Should the gun be accessible, then building an armoured turret and placing it on a chassis, even a tank chassis, is doable - and there are several, e.g. South Africa, Slovenia, Poland, Ukraine, etc - with experience doing it.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan


The numbers will matter here. Plus we are talking about SPH not IFV or wheeled APC here. The main thing is about the artillery procurement, Wheeled SPH to be exact.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Be it the NORA B-52, T5-52 or (for discussion's sake) Panter, media rumours have it that Pakistan will seek to manufacture 80% of its order domestically. If they're finally going to pull in a 155 mm gun, then I suspect it'll be for towed, wheeled SPH and, in time, tracked SPH. Should the gun be accessible, then building an armoured turret and placing it on a chassis, even a tank chassis, is doable - and there are several, e.g. South Africa, Slovenia, Poland, Ukraine, etc - with experience doing it.


True sir. BTW, we do make those 125 barrels for our tanks, perhaps we should have ventured working on a 155mm for artillery too. However that have not happened.


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> I will however say that Buffel MRAP the one I mentioned is far far cheaper than the other ones available like MAXXPRO and Toyota pickup plus we can get them for peanuts. Literally peanuts, Sri Lanka is making them under license and so can we. My whole argument is Buffel is far better protection than the death trap Toyota Pickups. If Buffle can Survive the extremely harsh environment like Namibia then it will be absolutely at home in Pakistan. @denel can back me up here!


absolutely. ther are thousands lying in storage outside Pretoria and Bloemfontien.


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## Path-Finder

Army research said:


> Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?


What would be extra cost for maintenance? maintenance will be lower if its made in Pakistan 100% surely?



Zarvan said:


> If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan


I read that post by horus and as always I will wait for official confirmation. before Turkey there was talk of IFV from China which according to some people was as good as done deal. but nothing further happened other than years went by and the news got old.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What would be extra cost for maintenance? maintenance will be lower if its made in Pakistan 100% surely?
> 
> 
> I read that post by horus and as always I will wait for official confirmation. before Turkey there was talk of IFV from China which according to some people was as good as done deal. but nothing further happened other than years went by and the news got old.


After wheeled IFV is next and you may never hear any official announcement you would only a picture of it in Pakistan army use or a video of some exercise where you would see this weapon. From China and Pakistan we now a days most of the times quietly get a weapon


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> After wheeled IFV is next and you may never hear any official announcement you would only a picture of it in Pakistan army use or a video of some exercise where you would see this weapon. From China and Pakistan we now a days most of the times quietly get a weapon


If it comes from Turkey we will know about it as they will announce it in their news. Only China keeps things tight lipped.


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## Basel

Arsalan said:


> I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!
> 
> You are such as a**!!!
> 
> 
> Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).
> 
> AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs
> 
> 
> 
> T5-52.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)



Your post about G-6 suggest it can be good contender to be part of strike units of PA.


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Path-Finder @Arsalan



This gonna be Awesome we need them in very good Numbers 

this gonna be awesome with this Turret installed on top of PARS 8x8


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> If it comes from Turkey we will know about it as they will announce it in their news. Only China keeps things tight lipped.


Many things we get from Turkey are not announced but I think the upcoming defence exibition we would sign deal for both ships and these APC


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Many things we get from Turkey are not announced but I think the upcoming defence exibition we would sign deal for both ships and these APC


Hazrat APC is not the size of the match box. Images would appear online and you would likely post them.


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## Arsalan

Basel said:


> Your post about G-6 suggest it can be good contender to be part of strike units of PA.


It is an excellent platform no doubt. However, not a contender as it is not being considered. We are currently looking at wheeled SPH and only looking at Nora and T5 having looked and considered SH1 previously. G6 was not in the picture. Next step, whenever it comes, will be tracked SPH and for that M109s will be top priority i guess.

As for G6, again, it is great. At time of its introduction it was considered the market leader in wheeled platforms. Very mobile and very tough. Mobile is what we are looking for when we are considering wheeled SPH and tough is what we need. It is reported to have survived MULTIPLE anti-tank mine blasts during trials and have a very decent mine resistant body. Have very high speed (90km/hr) and long range (600 km) and have the shoot and scoot ability as it can be put into firing position, fire and then be made ready to move and change position again, all in around 2 min only, avoiding any anti-battery fire. Have a 6 rounds MRSI mode which for me is the technology that is keeping artillery not only relevant but also very lethal in modern warfare. It can fire these rounds and move away, all rounds will hit the target TOGETHER. Consider a battery of 10 or 12 guns firing at an advancing enemy column in MRSI mode. The enemy will be rained upon by 60 - 72 rounds, all at once. This will be extremely efficient, the best part is the guns can run away after firing these rounds and change position to avoid enemy counter fire and live to engage them again in similar manner. The firing range is also massive with some special V-LAP rounds reported to have hit targets as far as 65km.

All said, the T5-52 that we are evaluating is also a pretty decent platform. While it lacks the anti-mine protection of G6 it is also very mobile, have similar top speed and range, firing range, response time is same if not better, can also fire in MRSI mode so overall T5-52 will be a good choice as well. Same for Nora B52.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> It is an excellent platform no doubt. However, not a contender as it is not being considered. We are currently looking at wheeled SPH and only looking at Nora and T5 having looked and considered SH1 previously. G6 was not in the picture. Next step, whenever it comes, will be tracked SPH and for that M109s will be top priority i guess.
> 
> As for G6, again, it is great. At time of its introduction it was considered the market leader in wheeled platforms. Very mobile and very tough. Mobile is what we are looking for when we are considering wheeled SPH and tough is what we need. It is reported to have survived MULTIPLE anti-tank mine blasts during trials and have a very decent mine resistant body. Have very high speed (90km/hr) and long range (600 km) and have the shoot and scoot ability as it can be put into firing position, fire and then be made ready to move and change position again, all in around 2 min only, avoiding any anti-battery fire. Have a 6 rounds MRSI mode which for me is the technology that is keeping artillery not only relevant but also very lethal in modern warfare. It can fire these rounds and move away, all rounds will hit the target TOGETHER. Consider a battery of 10 or 12 guns firing at an advancing enemy column in MRSI mode. The enemy will be rained upon by 60 - 72 rounds, all at once. This will be extremely efficient, the best part is the guns can run away after firing these rounds and change position to avoid enemy counter fire and live to engage them again in similar manner. The firing range is also massive with some special V-LAP rounds reported to have hit targets as far as 65km.
> 
> All said, the T5-52 that we are evaluating is also a pretty decent platform. While it lacks the anti-mine protection of G6 it is also very mobile, have similar top speed and range, firing range, response time is same if not better, can also fire in MRSI mode so overall T5-52 will be a good choice as well. Same for Nora B52.



We already have enough M-109 but time to say bye bye to M-110 way to big and difficult to move. And I don't think we should try to replace them with same caliber instead we should try to get 155MM Tracked Artillery from Turkey.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> We already have enough M-109 but time to say bye bye to M-110 way to big and difficult to move. And I don't think we should try to replace them with same caliber instead we should try to get 155MM Tracked Artillery from Turkey.


We are pursuing a standarization program to make 155mm as the standard so M110 are here only for as long as we do not acquire better more suitable guns in numbers. M109 is with us in good quantity and we absolutely LOVE it. The newer versions have MRSI and other goodies as well. So when we start looking for tracked SPH M109 will be there on top of the list for sure. We wont choose a different weapons just because we want different machines running, in fact, we will always try to standardize things and us USA is ready to play ball they wont find us hesitant. More A5s as planned, perhaps a few A6s too. If those are not available, then the next most probably option in the Chinese PLZ-05 or PLZ-45.

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## peruni

Nora B-52 could be produced on some local made 8x8 truck. Pakistan had in past assembled Kamaz truck but could also use some other manufacturer. Nora is modular weapon system and it is not tied for one truck or chassis manufacturer. Could be even mounted on battleships or tracked vehicles with appropriate adjustments . 

With Nora B-52 Pakistan gets one of best artillery software and fire control in world, software that is in dreams of African Denel and software that has brought up China interest in Nora B-52 and possible military cooperation of Serbia with China in artillery production.

Software that can direct battery fire of six Nora B-52 with one press of button on a one or multiple targets. 

Serbia had first in world developed gun mounted howitzer on truck while rest has been trying to keep up with (look new Cesar now on 8x8 trying to get more automation, Konstrukta 155mm 6x6 and many other trying to cope with Nora level of automation and development). 

Serbia has long tradition with artillery dating from Medieval period early as 1350 when "humka" bombard or canon was used in wars. You could not say that for South Africa.

Pakistan is already using some products from military industry of Serbia and was very pleased with them. In past M-84 tank developed in Belgrade MTI was in Pakistan on test when it negotiated buying of tanks. Tank was not purchased because of war in Yugoslava but according to my knowledge Pakistan has obtained some construction documentation by side channels for M-84 and implemented knowledge from it it in tank Al-Khalid you are now producing. Even today more than 20 years after M-84 was produced fire control system developed by MTI Belgrade is better than one in latest Russia version of T-72 - T-72B4 and many other tanks in world.

Pakistan has a line for artillery ammo from South Korea but still lacks some type of ammo that Serbia can offer with Nora. And not just 155mm but others calibers as well. 

Software from Nora could be implemented in other artillery Pakistan have that needs modernization. And Serbia could for example integrate new ammo and software on M109 155mm. Serbia could modernize Pakistan towed artillery D-30 on Sora 122mm level on Pakistan 6x6 chassis for example or develop package for modernization of other towed 155mm Pakistan has in armament.

Serbia could modernize Pakistan 130mm M-46 - Type 59 by up-gunning it to 155mm with 45caliber something that Serbia developed more than 20 years ago for domestic and foreign M-46.

Serbia could offer you to transfer technology and produce domestic Nora towed howitzer in 155mm caliber
and you would have complete line of towed and truck mounted artillery domestically produced . 

So there is a lot possibilities for mutual cooperation in artillery field if Pakistan buy Nora B-52 155mm not to mention other areas.

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## HRK

peruni said:


> Pakistan has a line for artillery ammo from South Korea but still lacks some type of ammo that Serbia can offer with Nora


With Nora B-52 VLAP should attract additional interest .... 


peruni said:


> So there is a lot possibilities for mutual cooperation in artillery field if Pakistan buy Nora B-52 155mm not to mention other areas.


Yes there could be many possibilities in future such as NORA-A1 LIGHT GUN-HOWITZER (155 mm/39 CAL.)

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## pzfz

the m109s are not 52 caliber, hence they'll always have a shorter range than the 52 caliber guns. the first g6s are also not 52 caliber, pretty sure they're 45 cal.

if pak is smart, they'll go for the denel t5-52. that same gun provides a lot of flexibility regarding platforms:wheeled chassis, truck wheeled, or tracked chassis.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

pzfz said:


> the m109s are not 52 caliber, hence they'll always have a shorter range than the 52 caliber guns. the first g6s are also not 52 caliber, pretty sure they're 45 cal.
> 
> if pak is smart, they'll go for the denel t5-52. that same gun provides a lot of flexibility regarding platforms:wheeled chassis, truck wheeled, or tracked chassis.


Yep I hope they actually procure the requisite ToT to fully manufacture the gun. If HIT has to raise its own steel mill, then so be it, the benefit would be localized supply of 155 mm artillery and 125 mm tank guns. VLAP and INS/GPS-guided shells for artillery would be positives as well.


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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If HIT has to raise its own steel mill, then so be it,


I think Heavy Mechanical complex have casting & forging facility available though one can't term it as STEEL MILL 


> All its processing facilities are in-house including Designing, Fabrication, Machining, *Iron and Steel Castings, Forgings, *Heat Treatment, Assembly, Sand Blasting, Painting and Galvanizing etc.

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## Advocate Pakistan

HRK said:


> I think Heavy Mechanical complex have casting & forging facility available though one can't term it as STEEL MILL



Good to know. But that is pretty much every functioning of a steel mill mentioned there, especially in regards to the refining stages. Don't exactly know what else should a steel mill do? Enlighten me please.


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## HRK

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Good to know. But that is pretty much every functioning of a steel mill mentioned there, especially in regards to the refining stages. Don't exactly know what else should a steel mill do? Enlighten me please.



Forging & Casting are the ONLY TWO functions that all STEEL MILLS perform ... ??

& for enlightenment part ... plz help yourself ...


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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> the m109s are not 52 caliber, hence they'll always have a shorter range than the 52 caliber guns. the first g6s are also not 52 caliber, pretty sure they're 45 cal.
> 
> if pak is smart, they'll go for the denel t5-52. that same gun provides a lot of flexibility regarding platforms:wheeled chassis, truck wheeled, or tracked chassis.


I agree and also we can also get Towed Artillery Guns from South Africa and start joint ventures


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/853635616327815170
Sorry but just pointing it out.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/853635616327815170
> Sorry but just pointing it out.


Well according to data sheet it's good against only Small Arms. We need MRAP like Coughar


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well according to data sheet it's good against only Small Arms. We need MRAP like Coughar


This is South African Marauder MRAP built in US

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> This is South African Marauder MRAP built in US


Great vechile and we should get it from South Africa with TOT and also other vehicles


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> Great vechile and* we should get it from South Africa with TOT and also other vehicles*



Is there anything in this world that Pakistan shouldn't get or shouldn't get without TOT?

Molana you are an old member now. Refrain from such stupid statements.

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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Is there anything in this world that Pakistan shouldn't get or shouldn't get without TOT?
> 
> Molana you are an old member now. Refrain from such stupid statements.


Yes every smart country tries to get as many weapons with TOT as they can and if every second day you hear soldiers dying due to IED even if that doesn't makes you realize the importance of these beasts than nothing can


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## Basel

It seems G-6 is what Pakistan need to add in its arsenal to counter Indian fast moving IBG.

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## Fledgingwings




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## Rocky rock

Fledgingwings said:


>



What are you trying to do? just to increase the numbers?



Basel said:


> It seems G-6 is what Pakistan need to add in its arsenal to counter Indian fast moving IBG.



G-6 is not include in trials so no need to start any new Discussion which isn't in the list.

T5-52 and Nora B-52 are competing.


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## Basel

Rocky rock said:


> What are you trying to do? just to increase the numbers?
> 
> 
> 
> G-6 is not include in trials so no need to start any new Discussion which isn't in the list.
> 
> T5-52 and Nora B-52 are competing.



Are you from DPD or DGDP or DGMP of MoDP?? or Are you a Admin or moderator here? 

If not, dont bother to give instruction to me again, this thread is not bound to discuss what is being tested or not.


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## Rocky rock

Basel said:


> Are you from DPD or DGDP or DGMP of MoDP?? or Are you a Admin or moderator here?
> 
> If not, dont bother to give instruction to me again, this thread is not bound to discuss what is being tested or not.



 Calm down man! No offence i'm just saying because it's useless to Discuss what Pakistan should procure and what shouldn't coz by your saying it isn't goona happen. So better to compare the possible options. 

it's just like one starts saying Pakistan Should go for Raptor . So it's good to debate on what's on the Table.


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## monitor



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## Arsalan

Basel said:


> It seems G-6 is what Pakistan need to add in its arsenal to counter Indian fast moving IBG.


T5 and NORA B52 is what we looked into and both are good on paper. Some modified/altered version was also presented after initial trials by NORA so i think they are leading the race. T5 is an excellent platform too. G6 is not really what we are after right now. It do offers some improvements over T5-52 but our requirements (of a highly mobile, wheeled SPH) are met by T5 and NORA as well so we may not be spending extra of G6.

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## fatman17

Basel said:


> It seems G-6 is what Pakistan need to add in its arsenal to counter Indian fast moving IBG.


NASR have been inducted for Indian IBGs


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## Kompromat

Caesar 155mm


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## HRK

Horus said:


> Caesar 155mm



no way ..... are you sure ....?? You are not teasing .... 
has it reached Pakistan for testing ...??


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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan's more interest is in Nora B-52

What is selected must go under thorough trial as it would be billion dollar deal and equipment will play its role in long term strategy.


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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Caesar 155mm


What do you mean by that ????????????


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## Kompromat

Expected. 



HRK said:


> no way ..... are you sure ....?? You are not teasing ....
> has it reached Pakistan for testing ...??

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## Muhammad Omar

*Is it gonna be this one??*

*CAESAR self-propelled 155mm gun-howitzer installed on an 8X8 truck chassis*
























Would you Look at that BEAST

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## Path-Finder

Well one thing is certain that TATRA chassis is being adopted for Caesar 8x8 and already adopted for Denel T5. Can be adopted to NORA B52. Its all about the Gun now which gun will be chosen.

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## Basel

Arsalan said:


> T5 and NORA B52 is what we looked into and both are good on paper. Some modified/altered version was also presented after initial trials by NORA so i think they are leading the race. T5 is an excellent platform too. G6 is not really what we are after right now. It do offers some improvements over T5-52 but our requirements (of a highly mobile, wheeled SPH) are met by T5 and NORA as well so we may not be spending extra of G6.



G-6 or similar system is what actually needed due to various factors and NBC protection, mobility, rate of fire, protection against exploded shell splinters are just few of those factors, its better or comparable to B-52, T-5 will have survivability issues against heavy fire power from land and air.



fatman17 said:


> NASR have been inducted for Indian IBGs



Its last line of defense not primary weapon, go through Azm e Nau exercise to understand how Pakistan will respond.

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## Muhammad Omar

Path-Finder said:


> Well one thing is certain that TATRA chassis is being adopted for Caesar 8x8 and already adopted for Denel T5. Can be adopted to NORA B52. Its all about the Gun now which gun will be chosen.




So we will have the TATRA Chassis no matter what the same one 1 posted?

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## Path-Finder

Muhammad Omar said:


> So we will have the TATRA Chassis no matter what the same one 1 posted?


 No I didn't say that. The Tatra Chassis is being chosen for artillery systems by various nations. Denmark has chosen TATRA for Caesar last month. It is a very good Truck and if Pakistan choses it then It will be the right decision, IMO.

*Denmark to purchase CAESAR howitzers on the Tatra chassis*
18 March, 2017

The tender for new howitzers for the Danish army was awarded to the French company Nexter Systems for the CAESAR 8x8 on the Tatra chassis. Deliveries are to be made by the end of this decade. This is the first project where the Tatra chassis has been projected as a new weapons platform for a Western member of NATO.





The Danish Ministry of Defence announced that they have chosen the CAESAR 8x8 type offered by the French company Nexter Systems in a tender for a new self-propelled 155 mm NATO howitzer. In the final phase, the choice was between the CAESAR howitzer on a four-axle Tatra chassis and the Israeli-type ATMOS made by the ELBIT Corporation, also mounted on the Tatra chassis. The Danish army's order is for 15 howitzers with an option for six more.

The French arms maker NEXTER Systems is one of the three largest and most important European companies of its kind. The latest version of the 155mm CAESAR 8x8 howitzer on the Tatra chassis was officially unveiled recently. _"After a jointly developed TITUS vehicle, it's another example of the successful cooperation between NEXTER Systems and Tatra,"_ said the Chairman of the Board of TATRA TRUCKS Petr Rusek. The latest version of the CAESAR 8x8 howitzer is built on a four-axle TATRA FORCE chassis and in its basic configuration uses the entire drive train made by the truck maker from Kopřivnice. Specifically, the original eight-cylinder direct air-cooled Tatra engine, Tatra main transmission equipped with the semiautomatic TATRA-NORGREN gear-shifting system and auxiliary transmission (drop box), also Tatra-branded. The chassis is equipped with all-wheel drive and air suspension on all axles, which is unique for vehicles of this weight category.

_"Thanks to its unique and exceptional concept with a rigid central tube and independently suspended half-axles, the Tatra chassis offers completely new possibilities for the CEASAR project and our customers. "It significantly expands the use of the weapon system not only in terms of its mobility, but also in its structural modularity and the possibility of using a substantially increased payload with a simultaneously higher horsepower-to-GVW ratio. These benefits were decisive in our choice of the chassis supplier," _said Alexander Penley, the Vice President of NEXTER Systems for Europe and Central Asia.

http://www.tatratrucks.com/about-th...rchase-caesar-howitzers-on-the-tatra-chassis/

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## JK!

South Africa also have the T6-52 turret which is basically the turret from the G6 that can be fitted to a tank chassis.

If we're thinking long term this provides scope for commonality between wheeled and tracked armoured systems.

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## pzfz

Nora isn't on the same planet as the Denel or Nexter gun. If the Nora is chosen, someone's on the take.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No I didn't say that. The Tatra Chassis is being chosen for artillery systems by various nations. Denmark has chosen TATRA for Caesar last month. It is a very good Truck and if Pakistan choses it then It will be the right decision, IMO.
> 
> *Denmark to purchase CAESAR howitzers on the Tatra chassis*
> 18 March, 2017
> 
> The tender for new howitzers for the Danish army was awarded to the French company Nexter Systems for the CAESAR 8x8 on the Tatra chassis. Deliveries are to be made by the end of this decade. This is the first project where the Tatra chassis has been projected as a new weapons platform for a Western member of NATO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Danish Ministry of Defence announced that they have chosen the CAESAR 8x8 type offered by the French company Nexter Systems in a tender for a new self-propelled 155 mm NATO howitzer. In the final phase, the choice was between the CAESAR howitzer on a four-axle Tatra chassis and the Israeli-type ATMOS made by the ELBIT Corporation, also mounted on the Tatra chassis. The Danish army's order is for 15 howitzers with an option for six more.
> 
> The French arms maker NEXTER Systems is one of the three largest and most important European companies of its kind. The latest version of the 155mm CAESAR 8x8 howitzer on the Tatra chassis was officially unveiled recently. _"After a jointly developed TITUS vehicle, it's another example of the successful cooperation between NEXTER Systems and Tatra,"_ said the Chairman of the Board of TATRA TRUCKS Petr Rusek. The latest version of the CAESAR 8x8 howitzer is built on a four-axle TATRA FORCE chassis and in its basic configuration uses the entire drive train made by the truck maker from Kopřivnice. Specifically, the original eight-cylinder direct air-cooled Tatra engine, Tatra main transmission equipped with the semiautomatic TATRA-NORGREN gear-shifting system and auxiliary transmission (drop box), also Tatra-branded. The chassis is equipped with all-wheel drive and air suspension on all axles, which is unique for vehicles of this weight category.
> 
> _"Thanks to its unique and exceptional concept with a rigid central tube and independently suspended half-axles, the Tatra chassis offers completely new possibilities for the CEASAR project and our customers. "It significantly expands the use of the weapon system not only in terms of its mobility, but also in its structural modularity and the possibility of using a substantially increased payload with a simultaneously higher horsepower-to-GVW ratio. These benefits were decisive in our choice of the chassis supplier," _said Alexander Penley, the Vice President of NEXTER Systems for Europe and Central Asia.
> 
> http://www.tatratrucks.com/about-th...rchase-caesar-howitzers-on-the-tatra-chassis/



The truck seriously looks cool by the way what is the range of this Artillery system


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## pzfz

all the guns (52 cal) have roughly the same range, depends on the ammunition. range should not be what decides the gun.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Denmark will pay $2.9m for each Nexter CAESAR SPH.

http://www.janes.com/article/68983/denmark-orders-caesar-howitzers-on-8x8-tatra-trucks


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## HRK

pzfz said:


> Nora isn't on the same planet as the Denel or Nexter gun. If the Nora is chosen, someone's on the take.



plz elaborate further ....


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> The truck seriously looks cool by the way what is the range of this Artillery system



The CAESAR has a firing range of approximately 42 km using an Extended Range, Full Bore (ERFB) shell, and more than 50 km using rocket assisted shells.

While Nora B-52 Ammo has range From 32 KM till 56 KM

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## monitor

Muhammad Omar said:


> The CAESAR has a firing range of approximately 42 km using an Extended Range, Full Bore (ERFB) shell, and more than 50 km using rocket assisted shells.
> 
> While Nora B-52 Ammo has range From 32 KM till 56 KM


Nora B-52 also has high rate of fire 
‎6-12 projectiles per minute depending on version.

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## The Accountant

Muhammad Omar said:


> *Is it gonna be this one??*
> 
> *CAESAR self-propelled 155mm gun-howitzer installed on an 8X8 truck chassis*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you Look at that BEAST


Why dont we manufacture our own chasis ... Pakistan continously have a need of chasis be it missile delivery, self propelled howitzer and armoured personnel carrier ...


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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Denmark will pay $2.9m for each Nexter CAESAR SPH.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/68983/denmark-orders-caesar-howitzers-on-8x8-tatra-trucks


That is robbery!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That is robbery!


Well it's expensive but if manage to get it with TOT well price would get reduced I seriously think we may go for two types we may opt for total 800 Truck Mounted Artillery systems and induction of new weapons all suggest Army finally has come to sense and is developing a conventional answer to Indian cold start that NASR was never a good idea. We also need to go for few more MRLS.


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## Path-Finder

Here is a spanner in the mix. We need the complete body of the NORA B52 as it is protected from the elements with its armored cabin for the gunners. Another factor is that it's completely automated loading But we need the Denel Gun and Denel Ammo because it combined is the best gun on the market. Chassis hopefully Tatra. In an ideal world this would be the best solution. NORA with Denel Gun



Zarvan said:


> Well it's expensive but if manage to get it with TOT well price would get reduced I seriously think we may go for two types we may opt for total 800 Truck Mounted Artillery systems and induction of new weapons all suggest Army finally has come to sense and is developing a conventional answer to Indian cold start that NASR was never a good idea. We also need to go for few more MRLS.


Hazrat Only NORA B52 can come with complete ToT, Denel wont give ToT for their best product either. Tatra can give ToT to make trucks in Pakistan infact I hope We go full Tatra both civil and military for trucks. There is NO way Nextar will give complete ToT either.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Here is a spanner in the mix. We need the complete body of the NORA B52 as it is protected from the elements with its armored cabin for the gunners. Another factor is that it's completely automated loading But we need the Denel Gun and Denel Ammo because it combined is the best gun on the market. Chassis hopefully Tatra. In an ideal world this would be the best solution. NORA with Denel Gun
> 
> 
> Hazrat Only NORA B52 can come with complete ToT, Denel wont give ToT for their best product either. Tatra can give ToT to make trucks in Pakistan infact I hope We go full Tatra both civil and military for trucks. There is NO way Nextar will give complete ToT either.


Artillery are being tested with condition of TOT. This was the condition which was told to companies before we started trials


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Artillery are being tested with condition of TOT. This was the condition which was told to companies before we started trials


Hazrat Trials and ToT are two different things. What if for example Nexter beats Denel and NORA? Then they negotiate and Nexter declines ToT. We should keep Trials and Negotiations for manufacturing separate.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat Trials and ToT are two different things. What if for example Nexter beats Denel and NORA? Then they negotiate and Nexter declines ToT. We should keep Trials and Negotiations for manufacturing separate.


The companies were told that if there Artillery Guns with Pakistan gets them with TOT only when they agreed they were invited for trials


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> The companies were told that if there Artillery Guns with Pakistan gets them with TOT only when they agreed they were invited for trials


What if they refuse ToT after the trials?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> What if they refuse ToT after the trials?


They will be thrown out but South Africa and Nora both agreed. Getting TOT from South Africa is the most easy thing to do. They themselves offer TOT even if you don't ask


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> Caesar 155mm


Is it expected to arrive for Trials?
If so then perhaps the modified/improved Nora B52 didn't fared well either. Caesar is an excellent platform no doubt but it will surely be quite expensive as other deals suggest. T5-52 or Nora B52 IF THEY give satisfactory results in our high temperatures may prove to be better choice financially as well as because they will offer us the technology as well. Not sure NEXTER will do the same. (Although they offered atleast assembly to Saudia)

Anyway, it is a good platform as well and it is great news if we are going to evaluate this one too. I hope the best option is selected, our high summer temperatures and performance in these conditions is going to play the key role in selection here.







It will be interesting to note whether they come with this 6x6 chassis or the new TATRA 8x8!

*TATRA 8x8 is becoming more and more relevant these days. I do hope that we sign some kind of deal with TATRA for some of there trucks (both for SPH as well as general logistics) *
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Path-Finder

India trialed both Denel & Nexter but chose K9. Now we are possibly going to test Nexter as well. Why didn't they choose these guns? Turkish Fritna is K9 as well maybe we can trial that however it is clear that PA wants truck chassis since testing Chinese SH1 almost a decade ago and not tracked as M109 is in adequett numbers.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> India trialed both Denel & Nexter but chose K9. Now we are possibly going to test Nexter as well. Why didn't they choose these guns? Turkish Fritna is K9 as well maybe we can trial that however it is clear that PA wants truck chassis since testing Chinese SH1 almost a decade ago and not tracked as M109 is in adequett numbers.


T5-52 and G6 by Denel, Caesar by NEXTER, B52 Nora are all WHEELED SPH. 
K9 is a tracked system.

*Different uses and applications. *

Our current interest is in WHEELED SPH, the tracked ones might follow on at a later stage, the current immediate requirement/interest is only in wheeled SPHs.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> T5-52 and G6 by Denel, Caesar by NEXTER, B52 Nora are all WHEELED SPH.
> K9 is a tracked system.
> 
> *Different uses and applications. *
> 
> Our current interest is in WHEELED SPH, the tracked ones might follow on at a later stage, the current immediate requirement/interest is only in wheeled SPHs.


No. What I am trying to say is that india didn't go for Denel or Nexter. that is what i am trying to find out.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> No. What I am trying to say is that india didn't go for Denel or Nexter. that is what i am trying to find out.


They didn't selected a wheeled SPH rather opted for the tracked one in shape of K-9. The wheeled ones may come later plus with a good base for making these heavy chassis vehicles and lessons learned from K-9, they may roll out a wheeled version themselves.

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## Imran Khan

we have so much of tracked SPH we need wheeled now


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No. What I am trying to say is that india didn't go for Denel or Nexter. that is what i am trying to find out.


If they tested Truck Mounted Artillery Guns and ended up selecting a tracked one than they need first do research and than decide what actually they want.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If they tested Truck Mounted Artillery Guns and ended up selecting a tracked one than they need first do research and than decide what actually they want.


No they testd SP guns both wheeled and tracked. There was only one SP that was tracked K9 and two wheeled Denel & Nexter. Along with bofors as well and some dordo gun. They selected K9 and M777 will be domestically made.

We need to look at M777 equivelant as some stage.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> No they testd SP guns both wheeled and tracked. There was only one SP that was tracked K9 and two wheeled Denel & Nexter. Along with bofors as well and some dordo gun. They selected K9 and M777 will be domestically made.
> 
> We need to look at M777 equivelant as some stage.


Well those are Artillery Machines but for different role and areas. This kind of actions makes me think Indian Military leadership is facing some serious crisis.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Well those are Artillery Machines but for different role and areas. This kind of actions makes me think Indian Military leadership is facing some serious crisis.


As far as i can read the situation, the requirement is/was for both wheeled and tracked SPH. They trialed both systems, have selected K-9 for tracked SPH and may roll out a Wheeled one on Tata Chassis using the lessons learned from K-9 and M777 deal. Makes sense.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> As far as i can read the situation, the requirement is/was for both wheeled and tracked SPH. They trialed both systems, have selected K-9 for tracked SPH and may roll out a Wheeled one on Tata Chassis using the lessons learned from K-9 and M777 deal. Makes sense.


Off Course than it would make sense but if they don't it than they were confused themselves


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## Lord Of Gondor

Arsalan said:


> They didn't selected a wheeled SPH rather opted for the tracked one in shape of K-9. The wheeled ones may come later plus with a good base for making these heavy chassis vehicles and lessons learned from K-9, they may roll out a wheeled version themselves.


The Tracked Howitzer program in India included the Russian Msta and the RoK K9, here the K9 has been chosen.
The wheeled Howitzer program better known as the "Mounted Gun System" is still ongoing and the competition includes the Nexter-Ashok Leyland Caesar, Swedish Archer and the Denel-Tata T5.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Off Course than it would make sense but if they don't it than they were confused themselves


I do not think they were confused. Both projects were running parallel. It is pretty clear that tracked one have been selected (K-9) and the wheeled one will come at some later stage. It can be a local product of a JV with some other manufacturer. Surely it is not like they were testing wheeled SPH and ended up buying K-9. People are not THAT stupid.



Lord Of Gondor said:


> The Tracked Howitzer program in India included the Russian Msta and the RoK K9, here the K9 has been chosen.
> The wheeled Howitzer program better known as the "Mounted Gun System" is still ongoing and the competition includes the Nexter-Ashok Leyland Caesar, Swedish Archer and the Denel-Tata T5.


Thank you. That is pretty much same as what we know.  

Are you aware whether there were any problems found with T5-52 in particular and other wheeled systems in general that this deal was delayed?



Imran Khan said:


> we have so much of tracked SPH we need wheeled now


Around 300 guns sir. It is not "so much" considering the long border. Plus some 50-60 of these are M110 that need to be phased out. There were plans of acquiring some 300 guns M109A5 from USA. Around 120-130 examples were delivered in 2010-2011 time frame (and are included in the total 300 guns that we have that i mentioned in the start). Not sure if the rest of those were delivered too. If so then the total number will be around 500 and then that is a decent strength.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Arsalan said:


> Are you aware whether there were any problems found with T5-52 in particular and other wheeled systems in general that this deal was delayed?


No public source information on the progress of the Mounted Gun System tender as of yet, although the trials might have been completed.
The MGS tender is for a huge sum of 814 units($2.5 Billion) and we may see movement soon as the artillery is gearing towards a massive upgrade to "Medium Guns".
But considering that this went the way of L&T, the Nexter/Ashok Leyland/L&T Caesar may be the frontrunner.

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## cabatli_53

A good option for friend states appeared. Turkey's new truck mounted howitzer called Yavuz introduced.

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> A good option for friend states appeared. Turkey's new truck mounted howitzer called Yavuz introduced.


What chassis is this based on?


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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> What chassis is this based on?


seems tatra


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> seems tatra


I don't think so several Turkish companies make good trucks and are also in defence production so it could be one of them


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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> I don't think so several Turkish companies make good trucks and are also in defence production so it could be one of them


turks are just new kids in defense productions they has alote of western exposure that's why they are trying there abilities to manufacture there own needs as well exporting them.
but i think in many fields they are even behind pakistan


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## Zarvan

ali_raza said:


> turks are just new kids in defense productions they has alote of western exposure that's why they are trying there abilities to manufacture there own needs as well exporting them.
> but i think in many fields they are even behind pakistan


When it comes to Land systems they are way ahead and now in Ship and Submarine production also we only defeat them in Missile program although there new Cruise Missiles and also rockets for MRLS are more advanced than what we use also the Anti Tank Missiles.

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## ali_raza

Zarvan said:


> When it comes to Land systems they are way ahead and now in Ship and Submarine production also we only defeat them in Missile program although there new Cruise Missiles and also rockets for MRLS are more advanced than what we use also the Anti Tank Missiles.


we are actually on halt these days thanks to zardari dark era we lost almost entirely on R&D every planed project got cancelled or stalled this puts us years behind.thats why we are resorting to import nowadays not making anything even thunder was musharraf era project


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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> seems tatra


Its definetly not Tatra.


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## -------

Path-Finder said:


> What chassis is this based on?



Looks like an IVECO 6x6 to me;

There are however Turkish alternatives

Nurol Kunter 6x6 truck




BMC 6x6 truck

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## Rocky rock

cabatli_53 said:


> A good option for friend states appeared. Turkey's new truck mounted howitzer called Yavuz introduced.



It's same Panter 155mm Gun on some Turkish truck. We can do the same i think we already making this gun under license and Turkey won't have any problem regarding this i think?


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## Muhammad Omar

Rocky rock said:


> It's same Panter 155mm Gun on some Turkish truck. We can do the same i think we already making this gun under license and Turkey won't have any problem regarding this i think?



Production of Panter 155mm Was stopped long ago read it on this forum


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> It's same Panter 155mm Gun on some Turkish truck. We can do the same i think we already making this gun under license and Turkey won't have any problem regarding this i think?


Than it's not a good idea if it's same Panter Gun because Panter is way to heavy


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## Rocky rock

Muhammad Omar said:


> Production of Panter 155mm Was stopped long ago read it on this forum



That doesn't mean we can't manufacture it again.


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> That doesn't mean we can't manufacture it again.


We stopped it for a reason !!!! and that is it's way to heavy


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> We stopped it for a reason !!!! and that is it's way to heavy



Nope that's not the reason we completed the desired order. We can't just keep manufacture something even if we don't have any further order. 

Pakistan Army is now just looking for SPH to full fill future requirements.


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> Nope that's not the reason we completed the desired order. We can't just keep manufacture something even if we don't have any further order.
> 
> Pakistan Army is now just looking for SPH to full fill future requirements.


Sir production was stopped and this means Army didn't wanted this Artillery after inducting few they realized How heavy it is so production was stopped Army wanted lot more towed Artillery Guns but Panter was way to heavy

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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> Sir production was stopped and this means Army didn't wanted this Artillery after inducting few they realized How heavy it is so production was stopped Army wanted lot more towed Artillery Guns but Panter was way to heavy



Haven't they knew about it's weight earlier? Thing's not happens like the way you're saying. orders doesn't take so long without reasons customer always aware of his needs then they analyze the product test it if it get successful then the order gets green signal.

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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> Nope that's not the reason we completed the desired order. We can't just keep manufacture something even if we don't have any further order.
> 
> Pakistan Army is now just looking for SPH to full fill future requirements.


Panter is a bit of a mystery there was a report of it being inducted but it never went any further. Army then started Trials of SH1 which didn't do well because just in the past months Denel T5 and NORA B52 were tested. So we can safely say that Panter and SH1 are not being considered. However the search for Truck Chassis based gun is on.

If Panter was going to be produced and as our Hazrat is saying that it was the weight issue then who knows it mounted on Truck Chassis might make PA consider it again.


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## Rocky rock

Path-Finder said:


> Panter is a bit of a mystery there was a report of it being inducted but it never went any further. Army then started Trials of SH1 which didn't do well because just in the past months Denel T5 and NORA B52 were tested. So we can safely say that Panter and SH1 are not being considered. However the search for Truck Chassis based gun is on.
> 
> If Panter was going to be produced and as our Hazrat is saying that it was the weight issue then who knows it mounted on Truck Chassis might make PA consider it again.



You're claiming something new. but all the valid sources confirms Pakistan has inducted Panter even manufacture under license in HIT.


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## Path-Finder

Rocky rock said:


> You're claiming something new. but all the valid sources confirms Pakistan has inducted Panter even manufacture under license in HIT.


We have discussed it on this very thread go back some pages, some of the senior members have even brought some info to enforce the argument that Panther is in limited few numbers


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> We stopped it for a reason !!!! and that is it's way to heavy



It was heavy and having difficulties on maneuvrability although she has its own propulsion. No need to mention the number of crew and time to be ready to fire and difficulties to change the position. Complexity made Panter howitzer open to malfuctions on field so Turkish Army has stopped production when it was ~40 and MKE Yavuz truck mounted howitzer project was borned. It uses same Panter gun on a truck and it just need 1minutes to be ready for fire, 1-2minutes to change position with 90km max speed. 150 MKE Yavuz in order. I suppose All existing Panter howitzers will be upgraded to Yavuz. 






As far as I know, A few Panter howitzer is given to Pakistani Artillery school as a gift or cheaper prize under the friendship of two brother states. I don't suppose Pakistan ordered Panter howitzers officially.

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## ali_raza

cabatli_53 said:


> It was heavy and having difficulties on maneuvrability although she has its own propulsion. No need to mention the number of crew and time to be ready to fire and difficulties to change the position. Complexity made Panter howitzer open to malfuctions on field so Turkish Army has stopped production when it was ~40 and MKE Yavuz truck mounted howitzer project was borned. It uses same Panter gun on a truck and it just need 1minutes to be ready for fire, 1-2minutes to change position with 90km max speed. 150 MKE Yavuz in order. I suppose All existing Panter howitzers will be upgraded to Yavuz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, A few Panter howitzer is given to Pakistani Artillery school as a gift or cheaper prize under the friendship of two brother states. I don't suppose Pakistan ordered Panter howitzers officially.


very promising project

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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> Haven't they knew about it's weight earlier? Thing's not happens like the way you're saying. orders doesn't take so long without reasons customer always aware of his needs then they analyze the product test it if it get successful then the order gets green signal.



Exactly !


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## Zarvan

Ulla said:


> Exactly !


They knew about the weight but no matter how many trials you do and how tough they are real time situation is always different

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## Blue Marlin

how many guns would pakistan be looking to buy?


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## Zarvan

Blue Marlin said:


> how many guns would pakistan be looking to buy?


Reports suggest Pakistan wants to have 500 of Truck Mounted Artillery Guns


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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> Reports suggest Pakistan wants to have 500 of Truck Mounted Artillery Guns



wasn't it 800 Guns??


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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> wasn't it 800 Guns??


I hope it would get increased to 800 but this is what some of our guys told Serbian Guys at IDEX 2017

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## Path-Finder

With the current situation with afghanistan I hope and I sincerely hope that wheeled SPH procurement are fast tracked because towed guns are a waste of time and rapid response can be carried out successfully with Wheeled SPH.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Pakistan needs a rapid change of doctrine. Consider vehicle mounted rapid deployment 105s and 155s. Integrate with C3, ability to direct fire and engage in mountainous and desert.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistan needs a rapid change of doctrine. Consider vehicle mounted rapid deployment 105s and 155s. Integrate with C3, ability to direct fire and engage in mountainous and desert.


I agree, new guns should be accompanied with digital FCS and forward ISTAR systems. 

Besides wheeled-SPH, lightweight towed howitzers ought to be of interest too - e.g. Denel LEO G7, a 105 mm gun weighing 3,800 kg (light enough for the Mi-17s to carry by sling). GDLS tested the G7 a while back and said it has the terminal performance of 155 mm.

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## JK!

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistan needs a rapid change of doctrine. Consider vehicle mounted rapid deployment 105s and 155s. Integrate with C3, ability to direct fire and engage in mountainous and desert.



Yes but a balance still needs to be struck in terms of mobility and armour. Most Western nations like USA and Britain started gearing towards rapid deployment vehicles which were great until bogged in static situations like in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

I've previously said that South Africa could be a source for complete overhauling of Pakistani Artilery with the T6-52 turret on an Al Khalid chassis, the Truck mounted 52 howitzer and also the light gun Bilal Quwa has mentioned there.

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## LZ-MARS

New Aselsan Truck Mounted 155mm Panter at IDEF17


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/861556237573521409

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## ebrahym

can we not mount our existing towed artillery arsenal on a truck ........ i mean converting it into self-propelled designation with upgrades should not be harder and even if not self propelled it will give a shoot and scoot edge


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## Basel

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Pakistan needs a rapid change of doctrine. Consider vehicle mounted rapid deployment 105s and 155s. Integrate with C3, ability to direct fire and engage in mountainous and desert.



Pakistan also need NLOS type weapon systems too. 

Something like that:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ires-missiles-in-a-box-program-updated-02653/


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> They knew about the weight but no matter how many trials you do and how tough they are real time situation is always different


Trails are not theorems man, every possible scenario in armys book is tried out extensively on said systems, systems go through more extensive exposure than even active a battle sometimes.


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## S.Y.A

JK! said:


> Yes but a balance still needs to be struck in terms of mobility and armour. Most Western nations like USA and Britain started gearing towards rapid deployment vehicles which were great until bogged in static situations like in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Yes, you are right, but if one considers the terrain in the vicinity of the India-Pakistan border i.e. large swathes of desert in the south(cholistan, thar etc.) and the plains in Punjab region, that doctrine still holds. There are towns and cities close to the border, but continuous fighting in the north-west provided a lot of urban warfare experience to the army as well as the air force.

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## fatman17

Basel said:


> Pakistan also need NLOS type weapon systems too.
> 
> Something like that:
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ires-missiles-in-a-box-program-updated-02653/


China has developed one

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> China has developed one



Can you share more details about it?


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> Can you share more details about it?


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## Basel

Path-Finder said:


>



This is not in class of what I posted, its similar to Hellfire.

I m talking about this:


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## proka89



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## TaimiKhan

Basel said:


> This is not in class of what I posted, its similar to Hellfire.
> 
> I m talking about this:


As i have said on multiple occasions, PA needs to invest heavily in precision guided munitions and its systems. Just imagine HJ-10 kind of system with 10-15Km range linked with hand portable or VTOL kind of UAV or forward observers on the ground who see enemy armor advancing and these missiles get unleashed, the enemy wont know what and from where they got hit. 

Precision munitions is the key.

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## -------

TaimiKhan said:


> As i have said on multiple occasions, PA needs to invest heavily in precision guided munitions and its systems. Just imagine HJ-10 kind of system with 10-15Km range linked with hand portable or VTOL kind of UAV or forward observers on the ground who see enemy armor advancing and these missiles get unleashed, the enemy wont know what and from where they got hit.
> 
> Precision munitions is the key.



Pakistan can develop an NLOS type of weapon very cheaply. Pakistan can develop a catapult launched UAV with 20kg of explosives with loitering capabilities of >4 hours and a 50km ranged data-link. It's definitely doable, whether Pakistan would invest in such a venture, is another question..

Loitering munition concept was experimented in Turkey with TAI Gozcu UAV similar to Israels HAROP. Unfortunately, it was left in it's experimental stage..

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## TaimiKhan

Combat-Master said:


> Pakistan can develop an NLOS type of weapon very cheaply. Pakistan can develop a catapult launched UAV with 20kg of explosives with loitering capabilities of >4 hours and a 50km ranged data-link. It's definitely doable, whether Pakistan would invest in such a venture, is another question..
> 
> Loitering munition concept was experimented in Turkey with TAI Gozcu UAV similar to Israels HAROP. Unfortunately, it was left in it's experimental stage..


Everything is doable provided they have the will. We have money, human resource and can built infrastructure with partners who want to help. Chinese and turks.

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## Path-Finder

just nicked it from the Turkish section!

At one point Panter was going to be made in HIT which never went any farther, however as we are looking for Truck mounted guns this can be great candidate.



Basel said:


> This is not in class of what I posted, its similar to Hellfire.
> 
> I m talking about this:


This is very similar to the Spike NLOS

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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> This is very similar to the Spike NLOS



Another possible area for cooperation with Serbia is ALAS. Development phase is near the end, and just recently ALAS demonstrated ability to hit a moving target at distance of 12.5km (which is maximum range on that training field, ALAS max range is 25km):

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## Path-Finder

proka89 said:


> Another possible area for cooperation with Serbia is ALAS. Development phase is near the end, and just recently ALAS demonstrated ability to hit a moving target at distance of 12.5km (which is maximum range on that training field, ALAS max range is 25km):


Didn't UAE buy these?


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## proka89

Path-Finder said:


> Didn't UAE buy these?



ALAS C is being specifically developed according to UAE needs, with their financial support.

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## Arsalan

Basel said:


> Pakistan also need NLOS type weapon systems too.
> 
> Something like that:
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ires-missiles-in-a-box-program-updated-02653/


A must have in today's warfare!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Combat-Master said:


> Pakistan can develop an NLOS type of weapon very cheaply. Pakistan can develop a catapult launched UAV with 20kg of explosives with loitering capabilities of >4 hours and a 50km ranged data-link. It's definitely doable, whether Pakistan would invest in such a venture, is another question..
> 
> Loitering munition concept was experimented in Turkey with TAI Gozcu UAV similar to Israels HAROP. Unfortunately, it was left in it's experimental stage..



Pak has UCAVs,MALE UAVs etc.

But we lack a NLOS.



Path-Finder said:


> just nicked it from the Turkish section!
> 
> At one point Panter was going to be made in HIT which never went any farther, however as we are looking for Truck mounted guns this can be great candidate.
> 
> 
> This is very similar to the Spike NLOS


Ironic, we build tank guns,MLRS,CMs,ALCMs,SLCMs,IRBMs,work on SLVs... and we stop work on arty?

What stops Pak from investing as little as perhaps 25 million dollars on R&D? 

Or a similiar amount on an NLOS ?

Even the officers of the army institutions like POF,HIT etc are working on the mantra of "Jaisa hai chalnay do"...

No Lack of will,laziness ... i bet only superceeded,ordinance type officers are posted to such places... to retire.

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## -------

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak has UCAVs,MALE UAVs etc.
> 
> But we lack a NLOS.
> 
> Ironic, we build tank guns,MLRS,CMs,ALCMs,SLCMs,IRBMs,work on SLVs... and we stop work on arty?
> 
> What stops Pak from investing as little as perhaps 25 million dollars on R&D?
> 
> Or a similiar amount on an NLOS ?
> 
> Even the officers of the army institutions like POF,HIT etc are working on the mantra of "Jaisa hai chalnay do"...
> 
> No Lack of will,laziness ... i bet only superceeded,ordinance type officers are posted to such places... to retire.



NLOS simply means, None Line Of Sight. It does not have to be a missile to be NLOS, you can easily convert a prop powered drone into a loitering munition and have NLOS capability. Loitering munition has the added capability to stay in the air longer allowing for RECON of suspected threats, categorising multiple threats and neutralising highest threat perceived by the command structure.

Azerbaijan has used their HAROP Loitering Munition against Armenia to great effect. IMO Loitering Munition is not only cheaper to develop and operate but it gives much more added advancements then a NLOS Missile.


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## Gryphon

Reportedly, Pakistan Army has acquired a 155 mm KH-179 howitzer from South Korea.

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## Basel

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Reportedly, Pakistan Army has acquired a 155 mm KH-179 howitzer from South Korea.



Source please.

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## Rocky rock

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Reportedly, Pakistan Army has acquired a 155 mm KH-179 howitzer from South Korea.


Source please? And is this the lighter version?


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## Gryphon

Basel said:


> Source please.





Rocky rock said:


> Source please? And is this the lighter version?



http://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/kh179


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## Rocky rock

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> http://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/kh179


Source doesn't seems to be credible enough.
But it mentioned only 2 pieces? Are they coming for trials yet?


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Reportedly, Pakistan Army has acquired a 155 mm KH-179 howitzer from South Korea.


What are they doing!!

There were reports of interest in towed artillery (following the SPH wheeled guns that were trialed earlier) but they idea was to look for a light weight gun that can be transported by our helicopters. At around 6.5 ton this is NOT feasible for that role. However over all it will be a satisfactory gun. One advantage it might offer is that it is based on the American M114s that we already operate.


I would have loved PA continuing the SPH procurement plan with Nora B-52 or T5-52 or some other suitable gun and wait on the towed one. Chinese may soon be able to offer there AH-4. Better yet, compromise on that standardization plan to 155mm and a keep a few ultra light weight PA's helicopter transportable smaller guns like the much discussed excellent G7 which is 105 mm but performance is comparable to 155mm and it weights only 3800 Kg so can be transported by our Mi17 when required.



Rocky rock said:


> Source doesn't seems to be credible enough.
> But it mentioned only 2 pieces? Are they coming for trials yet?


It seems to be true. There were some reports of interest in towed artiller and this might well be a result of that.


Anyway, these are just trials and i hope that they do consider the weight issue and since no other option is present (that can be carried by our helicopter) opt for G7 with compromise on that standardization. However, first get done with those wheeled SPH PLEASE!


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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Reportedly, Pakistan Army has acquired a 155 mm KH-179 howitzer from South Korea.


Finally some good news if true. We have quite good SP Artillery Systems but our Towed Artillery Guns are way old we needed new beasts and South Korea has been offering us weapons and also interested in building shipyard in Gawader. Media a year back also reported that Pakistan showed interest in PAK-50 Fighter Trainer but no news of that. But if this is true than it's good start @Horus


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Finally some good news if true. We have quite good SP Artillery Systems but our Towed Artillery Guns are way old we needed new beasts and South Korea has been offering us weapons and also interested in building shipyard in Gawader. Media a year back also reported that Pakistan showed interest in PAK-50 Fighter Trainer but no news of that. But if this is true than it's good start @Horus


Lolz!! 
So here comes the list! GREAT!!


BTW, there is no such thing as a PAK-50 Fighter Trainer. Perhaps you wanted to say KAI T-50 Golden Eagle






JF17B is the answer. T-50 interest is sort of over now though it was reported to have been THOUGHT about (not saying looked into).


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Lolz!!
> So here comes the list! GREAT!!
> 
> 
> BTW, there is no such thing as a PAK-50 Fighter Trainer. Perhaps you wanted to say KAI T-50 Golden Eagle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF17B is the answer. T-50 interest is sort of over now though it was reported to have been THOUGHT about (not saying looked into).


Yes a year two ago media reported that Pakistan may buy these and also interested in Tank engine from South Korea


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> Lolz!!
> So here comes the list! GREAT!!
> 
> 
> BTW, there is no such thing as a PAK-50 Fighter Trainer. Perhaps you wanted to say KAI T-50 Golden Eagle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF17B is the answer. T-50 interest is sort of over now though it was reported to have been THOUGHT about (not saying looked into).


If they want hundreds of guns, they should have looked for a local solution or atleast get complete transfer of technology for the guns.

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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> If they want hundreds of guns, they should have looked for a local solution or atleast get complete transfer of technology for the guns.


And where have ANYONE said that we are not going to do that?

Please understand this my dear:

The is a supposed news (though likely)
It is just ONE gun that we have accquired (most definitely confirming trials)
It is most likely that other options will be looked at as well
In other words, the decision of importing or making them at home is far from being finalized.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Yes a year two ago media reported that Pakistan may buy these and also interested in Tank engine from South Korea


KH-179 is an upgrade of old M114,39 howitzer... not really a new gun.



Arsalan said:


> And where have ANYONE said that we are not going to do that?
> 
> Please understand this my dear:
> 
> The is a supposed news (though likely)
> It is just ONE gun that we have accquired (most definitely confirming trials)
> It is most likely that other options will be looked at as well
> In other words, the decision of importing or making them at home is far from being finalized.


You can ask the Koreans to upgrade our older M-114 ... instead of buying these.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Yes a year two ago media reported that Pakistan may buy these and also interested in Tank engine from South Korea


Media also shows picture of Babur missile when reporting the test firing of Shaheed three so there is that!!

Yes we were looking for a LIFT but JF17B is most likely an response to that (along with export requirement).
For tank engine, Ukraine is what we would be relying upon for some years to come. Best to get both 1200 hp and 1500 hp with ToT and look for some 800-1000 hp as well if possible. 
Yes there were some talks about these things but that was not an official interest and it is long dead story now.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> KH-179 is an upgrade of old M114,39 howitzer... not really a new gun.
> 
> 
> You can ask the Koreans to upgrade our older M-114 ... instead of buying these.


And dont you think we need to first see for our self how good those M-114 can be after upgrade? Ergo the procurement of one Kh179 for trials?

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## Path-Finder

This gun is used on board the K9 SPH. K9 is made by Turkey as well and its procured by India!






DesertFighter is right we should get the M114 upgraded to this standard at least.

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## AUSTERLITZ

How many panters were actually inducted?
Wikipedia shows 200 plus A-100E MBRL systems for PA.Is this true?If true it seems an enormous amount.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> Media also shows picture of Babur missile when reporting the test firing of Shaheed three so there is that!!
> 
> Yes we were looking for a LIFT but JF17B is most likely an response to that (along with export requirement).
> For tank engine, Ukraine is what we would be relying upon for some years to come. Best to get both 1200 hp and 1500 hp with ToT and look for some 800-1000 hp as well if possible.
> Yes there were some talks about these things but that was not an official interest and it is long dead story now.
> 
> 
> And dont you think we need to first see for our self how good those M-114 can be after upgrade? Ergo the procurement of one Kh179 for trials?


We have over 150 of those guns, and we can either replace them or give them a cheap upgrade.

And not alot of upgrades are available on the market...

Now, dont get riled up over nothing im not zarvan with wish lists.

And i merely talk about giving preferance to R&D (local/indigenous solutions).

Buying hundreds of arty guns for billions of dollars is foolish, if u have the capabilty to develop and produce them at home.... billions of dollars could help develop jobs,experience and expertise for future projects.



Path-Finder said:


> This gun is used on board the K9 SPH. K9 is made by Turkey as well and its procured by India!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DesertFighter is right we should get the M114 upgraded to this standard at least.


PA's M114:







KH 179 upgrade:

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## Gryphon

Rocky rock said:


> Source doesn't seems to be credible enough.



The source is reliable. Doesn't need authentication.










INDODEFENCE 2014
*Upgraded KH178 artillery system offers more range - Indo14-Day3*

Christopher F Foss
07 November 2014






South Korea’s WIA, part of the Hyundai Group, is pushing for further export sales of its 105mm/ 38 calibre KH178 towed artillery system. This was developed some years ago to meet the operational requirements of the Republic of Korea Army, but has now been exported to a number of countries.

Indonesia is understood to deploy three artillery battalions equipped with the KH178, with each of these having three batteries each with six weapons.

The 105mm KH178 is essentially the US M101 105mm howitzer, which was originally developed shortly before the Second World War and built in large numbers for the US Army and Marine Corps.

Although an old design, the M101 105mm howitzer is still used by many other countries all over the world, although by today’s standards it has a very short firing range of only 11.72km.

On the upgraded KH178, the original 105mm barrel has been replaced by a new longer 105mm/ 38 calibre barrel fitted with a double-baffle muzzle brake. Firing the old M1 105mm high explosive (HE) projectile, a maximum range of 14.7km can be achieved, which can be increased to 18km with a rocket assisted projectile (RAP) or a base-bleed (BB) projectile. The upgraded KH178 also has a useful direct-fire capability of 1.5km, but this would only be used in an emergency.

As well as marketing the upgraded 105mm KH178, the company is offering an upgrade kit for the 155mm M114 towed howitzer, which has been supplied in large numbers to the ROK Army.

The original M114 has a maximum range of 14.6km firing a standard M107 HE projectile with Charge 7.

The upgraded M114 is called the KH179 and includes replacing the original barrel with a new 155mm/39 calibre barrel. Firing the 155mm M107 projectile, a maximum range of 22km can be achieved, which increases to 30km with a rocket-assisted projectile.

(307 words)

Upgraded KH178 artillery system offers more range - Indo14-Day3

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> Media also shows picture of Babur missile when reporting the test firing of Shaheed three so there is that!!
> 
> Yes we were looking for a LIFT but JF17B is most likely an response to that (along with export requirement).
> For tank engine, Ukraine is what we would be relying upon for some years to come. Best to get both 1200 hp and 1500 hp with ToT and look for some 800-1000 hp as well if possible.
> Yes there were some talks about these things but that was not an official interest and it is long dead story now.
> 
> 
> And dont you think we need to first see for our self how good those M-114 can be after upgrade? Ergo the procurement of one Kh179 for trials?


Actually, the JF-17B won't be the PAF's LIFT. From his recent interactions with ACM Sohail Aman, Alan Warnes said the PAF doesn't think that current LIFT platforms offer much value relative to the cost. In fact, the LIFTs on the market today are too complex and over-equipped for the role. So the PAF will use FT-7s as LIFT.

That said, I personally suspect the PAF is awaiting the TAI-SNC Freedom Trainer. If you read through Aviation Week's interview with SNC, you'll find that the Freedom Trainer is being designed to the ignore complex and costly subsystems the PAF was uncomfortable with in the L-15 and T-50. It'll even use non-afterburning turbofans (something the PAF implied it would prefer). No secondary role for light fighter or strike, just a pure FBW-equipped trainer for LIFT with low acquisition and operating costs.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/sierra-nevada-corp-tai-team-offer-freedom-trainer-t-x

Sorry for going off topic, back to artillery. A recent Serbian article says something about the Pakistan Army wanting 700 SPHs and testing a Serb rocket too? @proka89 would you be able to translate or explain what's being said in the link below?

http://www.pravda.rs/2017/05/11/snaga-srpskog-oruzja/

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## fatman17

Pakistan offered KH179 155mm towed artillery by South Korea


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## Gryphon

AUSTERLITZ said:


> How many panters were actually inducted?
> Wikipedia shows 200 plus A-100E MBRL systems for PA.Is this true?If true it seems an enormous amount.



Some unverified reports say 72 were produced.

But none was seen in Pakistan in the last decade (the first gun arrived for trials in 2007 or 2008). Probably, it failed the tests and Army decided to upgrade existing M114.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> A recent Serbian article says something about the Pakistan Army wanting 700 SPHs and testing a Serb rocket too? @proka89 would you be able to translate or explain what's being said in the link below?
> 
> http://www.pravda.rs/2017/05/11/snaga-srpskog-oruzja/



Thanks for the news.

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## Path-Finder

Many years ago a production line was obtained from SK for making ammo for 155mm guns but no modern guns were acquired. Bizarre way defence procurements works in Pakistan.


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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We have over 150 of those guns, and we can either replace them or give them a cheap upgrade.
> 
> And not alot of upgrades are available on the market...
> 
> Now, dont get riled up over nothing im not zarvan with wish lists.
> 
> And i merely talk about giving preferance to R&D (local/indigenous solutions).
> 
> Buying hundreds of arty guns for billions of dollars is foolish, if u have the capabilty to develop and produce them at home.... billions of dollars could help develop jobs,experience and expertise for future projects.
> 
> 
> PA's M114:
> 
> View attachment 402814
> 
> 
> 
> KH 179 upgrade:
> 
> View attachment 402815


Lolz
ooye kya matlab ha kay i am not zarvan? so now he is to be used as an example? 

Not getting riled up, may be roza laga hua ho so my words were a bit strong, sorry about that. There were no wrong intentions.

All i am saying is that it is wrong to start saying that they should have prefered local manufacturing because it is not clear yet what they are opting for. They might very well go for ToT and already be thinking about locl production. It id not like they ha e IMPORTED hundreds of guns for billuons of dollars as you say. Truals and evaluation will happen even with local production.

These are some unconfirmed news following some confimred reports of interest in towed artillery. This gun, if real, is coming for evaluatiin and there surely will be be more types too. Evaluating this may help us decide on upgrading those M114 or not so that too will be benificial.

In short, a bit early to comment what should or should not have been. WE DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

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## Sliver

isnt India getting new arty guns from S.Korea too?


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sorry for going off topic, back to artillery. A recent Serbian article says something about the Pakistan Army wanting 700 SPHs and testing a Serb rocket too? @proka89 would you be able to translate or explain what's being said in the link below?
> 
> http://www.pravda.rs/2017/05/11/snaga-srpskog-oruzja/


That off-topic part was very informative as well. Thank you. 

As for the Serbian gun, it will confirm upon that Nora B52 that was being evaluated. One gun was confirmed and there are reports that it was sent back and then arrived back again after some modifications. If the new article can be translated i think it will only further confirm the existence of that on going oroject and may be even shed some light upon a possible winner. As far as i know, Nora B52 and T5-52 were evaluated. After trials they went back but the Nora came back again with some changes. Perhaps this gun was deemed best fit and some tweaks were requested. I am not aware of Caesar in Pakistan however. 



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Some unverified reports say 72 were produced.
> 
> But none was seen in Pakistan in the last decade (the first gun arrived for trials in 2007 or 2008). Probably, it failed the tests and Army decided to upgrade existing M114.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the news.


12 were to be imported. 60 were to be made at HIT. At least the imported ones are here and some suggest that HIT also made but that is not confirmed and i am not sure about it. These were a failuer however and are not active duty. One was said to be present at artillery school, again, not active (not even part of training).

SPH will surely be a different project.


----------



## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Many years ago a production line was obtained from SK for making ammo for 155mm guns but no modern guns were acquired. Bizarre way defence procurements works in Pakistan.



Army did intend to acquire Norinco SH-1 and MKEK Panter. 



Arsalan said:


> These are some unconfirmed news following some confimred reports of interest in towed artillery. This gun, if real, is coming for evaluatiin and there surely will be be more types too. Evaluating this may help us decide on upgrading those M114 or not so that too will be benificial.
> 
> In short, a bit early to comment what should or should not have been. WE DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.



The Korean howitzer arrived in Pakistan on 3 January 2017 and the recipient was INSPECTORATE OF ARMAMENTS. The exporter was HANWHA CORPORATION. Visit the below link.

http://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/kh179

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## Path-Finder

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Army did intend to acquire Norinco SH-1 and MKEK Panter.
> 
> 
> 
> The Korean howitzer arrived in Pakistan on 3 January 2017 and the recipient was INSPECTORATE OF ARMAMENTS. The exporter was HANWHA CORPORATION. Visit the below link.
> 
> http://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/kh179



Any news on Caesar as per @Horus it was being inspected?

Makes sense to buy Korean Gun for Korean Ammo. Even though its NATO standard to be fired from any NATO standard barrel


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## Arsalan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Army did intend to acquire Norinco SH-1 and MKEK Panter.
> 
> 
> 
> The Korean howitzer arrived in Pakistan on 3 January 2017 and the recipient was INSPECTORATE OF ARMAMENTS. The exporter was HANWHA CORPORATION. Visit the below link.
> 
> http://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/kh179


So it means its aurely here then. It must indicate that a few more might come for trials? There were some report of Turkey offering an improved Panter as well. Lets see.



Path-Finder said:


> Any news on Caesar as per @Horus it was being inspected?
> 
> Makes sense to buy Korean Gun for Korean Ammo. Even though its NATO standard to be fired from any NATO standard barrel


You replied the question yourself. Its not Korean ammo as such as far as standardization is concerned. Its a NATO standard so there are many guns that can make use of it. 

We are looking for wheeled SPH. Now here is news regarding towed artillery as well, we were said to look at them after SPH. Also there is a report regarding 700 SPH from Serbia (Nora B52 was evaluated and certain tweaks were requested) 

I would say its enough ammo to engage in speculations!! 

readyyyyyyy.....


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> So it means its aurely here then. It must indicate that a few more might come for trials? There were some report of Turkey offering an improved Panter as well. Lets see.
> 
> 
> You replied the question yourself. Its not Korean ammo as such as far as standardization is concerned. Its a NATO standard so there are many guns that can make use of it.
> 
> We are looking for wheeled SPH. Now here is news regarding towed artillery as well, we were said to look at them after SPH. Also there is a report regarding 700 SPH from Serbia (Nora B52 was evaluated and certain tweaks were requested)
> 
> I would say its enough ammo to engage in speculations!!
> 
> readyyyyyyy.....


The interesting thing is this gun is used in K9 with longer barrel which is built in Turkey as Fritna. But that is altogether a different discussion. I wonder How well the Denel did. Regardless I hope wheeled SPH procurement is fast tracked with additionally it must come with the most favorite word of our Hazrat 'ToT' 

come on now Speculation is the basis of this Forum.


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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> I wonder How well the Denel did.


Apprantly not so well.
Two guns came, both went back after evaluation only for one of them to return. Then this article shared above about the same gun. 

Just saying.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Apprantly not so well.
> Two guns came, both went back after evaluation only for one of them to return. Then this article shared above about the same gun.
> 
> Just saying.



Just read the article and I didn't know until now that Nora meant crazy! 

"Test and test-fired a ballistic missile from the system "šumadija" a range of 300 km, will be done these days in Pakistan, because the local desert still higher than polygons in Nikinci. In Pakistan successfully completed the testing of our self-propelled howitzers "Crazy 52" Pakistanis have announced the purchase of 700 fantastic "crazy".

Welcome 700 Fantastic Crazy

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Just read the article and I didn't know until now that Nora meant crazy!
> 
> "Test and test-fired a ballistic missile from the system "šumadija" a range of 300 km, will be done these days in Pakistan, because the local desert still higher than polygons in Nikinci. In Pakistan successfully completed the testing of our self-propelled howitzers "Crazy 52" Pakistanis have announced the purchase of 700 fantastic "crazy".
> 
> Welcome 700 Fantastic Crazy


Reading about Nora all i love is MRSI. 

Serously, it is a good system and MRSI also is a game changer. As i said, this is what keep artillery relevant in modern combat. There are unit level efforts to make our existing guns computerized and that will be a huge advantage if aupported by top brass. There is some real talent out there, USE IT is the message


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> Many years ago a production line was obtained from SK for making ammo for 155mm guns but no modern guns were acquired. Bizarre way defence procurements works in Pakistan.


Base bleed and other rounds.


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Reading about Nora all i love is MRSI.
> 
> Serously, it is a good system and MRSI also is a game changer. As i said, this is what keep artillery relevant in modern combat. There are unit level efforts to make our existing guns computerized and that will be a huge advantage if aupported by top brass. There is some real talent out there, USE IT is the message


A very wise decision going for this gun as it offers the crew protection from the element with its armored compartment for gun crews. The Nora has come a long way from its original inception, A lesson FN can learn on how to improve things

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> A very wise decision going for this gun as it offers the crew protection from the element with its armored compartment for gun crews. The Nora has come a long way from its original inception, A lesson FN can learn on how to improve things


I see what you did there.
I am not taking the bait!


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Any news on Caesar as per @Horus it was being inspected?
> 
> Makes sense to buy Korean Gun for Korean Ammo. Even though its NATO standard to be fired from any NATO standard barrel



No news regarding Caesar.

On 3 January 2017, also arrived 40mm AGL from Hanwha Corporation and 155mm artillery ammo from Poongsan Corporation.

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## HRK

(Off-topic)
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*WIDE AREA DENIAL MUNITION*




Our Wide Area Denial Munition is _an intelligent munition that utilizes sensors and communications technology to autonomously *detect and strike the adversary's moving weapons. *Once its warhead is launched, the infrared sensor mounted on the warhead identifies the selected target and fires an explosively formed penetrator (EFP) to attack and penetrate the upper part of the target.
http://www.hanwhacorp.co.kr/eng/defense/business/area2_1.jsp_
========================
Interesting item I must say it should attract some interest form our side ...

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## cabatli_53

Firtina and K-9 harbor some similar technologies on chassis and overall design but turret and FCS units are different. Turkey is working on a new version self propelled howitzer called Firtina-II. It is going to be much more effective on longer ranges and operability on hot conflict zones thanks to situation awareness and stabilized gun. The new version is being developed thanks to lessons received at Syria operation. It is planned to be revealed/inducted into Army in 2019.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> (Off-topic)
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *WIDE AREA DENIAL MUNITION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Wide Area Denial Munition is _an intelligent munition that utilizes sensors and communications technology to autonomously *detect and strike the adversary's moving weapons. *Once its warhead is launched, the infrared sensor mounted on the warhead identifies the selected target and fires an explosively formed penetrator (EFP) to attack and penetrate the upper part of the target.
> http://www.hanwhacorp.co.kr/eng/defense/business/area2_1.jsp_
> ========================
> Interesting item I must say it should attract some interest form our side ...


Absolutely! If not the exact munition (with ToT) then at least some technical assistance so that Pakistan can build its own different equivalent.

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## fatman17

Path-Finder said:


> Many years ago a production line was obtained from SK for making ammo for 155mm guns but no modern guns were acquired. Bizarre way defence procurements works in Pakistan.


That ammo was common for all 155mm in our inventory. It dosnt have to have SK guns.

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## Rocky rock

List of Artillery Guns Pakistan Army is using now.


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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> (Off-topic)
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *WIDE AREA DENIAL MUNITION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Wide Area Denial Munition is _an intelligent munition that utilizes sensors and communications technology to autonomously *detect and strike the adversary's moving weapons. *Once its warhead is launched, the infrared sensor mounted on the warhead identifies the selected target and fires an explosively formed penetrator (EFP) to attack and penetrate the upper part of the target.
> http://www.hanwhacorp.co.kr/eng/defense/business/area2_1.jsp_
> ========================
> Interesting item I must say it should attract some interest form our side ...


VERY VERY interesting indeed. We (me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ) were talking about the advantages of such a weapons system but were of the view that there is really nothing in the league of CBU-97.
Now this might not exactly be that but a very interesting system indeed. No detail of its size are available on the site but if we can fit 6 or 8 of these in a cluster bomb dispenser it will be very lethal against enemy armored formations.

Great share sir.

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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> List of Artillery Guns Pakistan Army is using now.
> 
> View attachment 402976


The Number of D-30 might be higher, I think ca. 180 !


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> VERY VERY interesting indeed. We (me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ) were talking about the advantages of such a weapons system but were of the view that there is really nothing in the league of CBU-97.
> Now this might not exactly be that but a very interesting system indeed. No detail of its size are available on the site but if we can fit 6 or 8 of these in a cluster bomb dispenser it will be very lethal against enemy armored formations.
> 
> Great share sir.


If each one is the size a coffee mug, they can probably fit several dozen of these into a single GB6.

http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci...._1x_/public/gb-6_glide_bomb.jpg?itok=IgPhbsfe

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If each one is the size a coffee mug, they can probably fit several dozen of these into a single GB6.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci...._1x_/public/gb-6_glide_bomb.jpg?itok=IgPhbsfe


I think it will be bigger
If its around 80 100 pound still we can get around 8 of them in a single shell. That can be very effective. Our own CBU 97.
Well lets take this discussion to its appropiate thread then




Rocky rock said:


> List of Artillery Guns Pakistan Army is using now.
> 
> View attachment 402976


The idea is to standardize all these to two or three tiwed artillery, one or max two SPH wheeled options and one or two SPH tracked options, ALL in 155mm. Basiclly, the plan is to standardize to 155.

However personally i will like at least one gun in 105mm for northern area as there are loght weight options available tht can be carried by our helicopters. 150-200/220 of thise light weigh guns will not only serve us well in Kashmir region but also be a must for rapid deployment units in other areas due to its helicopter transportable weight.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Denel G7 LEO is a good example of a relevant 105mm gun. It has the range and terminal performance of a 155mm gun, but it's much lighter at 3,800 kg. At less than 5,000 kg (i.e. the Mi-17's payload), one can ferry the gun and its ammunition.

@Arsalan Theoretically, it may be possible to fit guided sub-munitions to an artillery shell. Rheinmetall already does it with the SMArt-155:

Standing for Sensor-fused Munition for Artillery, Calibre 155mm, SMArt 155 is a robust, highly effective "fire and forget" artillery shell. Each round carries a payload consisting of two autonomous, intelligent, high-performance submunitions. These are capable of neutralizing stationary and moving armoured vehicles of all types, including main battle tanks, in any environment and in all weathers. SMArt 155 makes it possible to halt an armoured assault with minimum ammunition expenditure and pinpoint accuracy, even at long ranges of engagement. The risk of collateral damage is reduced to a minimum.

https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1433.php​

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> VERY VERY interesting indeed. We (me and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ) were talking about the advantages of such a weapons system but were of the view that there is really nothing in the league of CBU-97.
> Now this might not exactly be that but a very interesting system indeed. No detail of its size are available on the site but if we can fit 6 or 8 of these in a cluster bomb dispenser it will be very lethal against enemy armored formations.
> 
> Great share sir.


Damn I actually pointed out Chinese and Russian sensor fuzed/fused ammo on the other thread but no + for me. This resembles the Russian one quite a bit.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Denel G7 LEO is a good example of a relevant 105mm gun. It has the range and terminal performance of a 155mm gun, but it's much lighter at 3,800 kg. At less than 5,000 kg (i.e. the Mi-17's payload), one can ferry the gun and its ammunition.
> 
> @Arsalan Theoretically, it may be possible to fit guided sub-munitions to an artillery shell. Rheinmetall already does it with the SMArt-155:
> 
> Standing for Sensor-fused Munition for Artillery, Calibre 155mm, SMArt 155 is a robust, highly effective "fire and forget" artillery shell. Each round carries a payload consisting of two autonomous, intelligent, high-performance submunitions. These are capable of neutralizing stationary and moving armoured vehicles of all types, including main battle tanks, in any environment and in all weathers. SMArt 155 makes it possible to halt an armoured assault with minimum ammunition expenditure and pinpoint accuracy, even at long ranges of engagement. The risk of collateral damage is reduced to a minimum.
> 
> https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1433.php​


Actually you mentioned G7 perviously and then i studied more about it. The more i learned the better it looked, suiting our requirments perfectly. That is why i am of the view now that other than following that standardization project aiming for an all 155mm artillery, we need to keep 200/220 guns in 105mm, light weight as G7 so that:

we can usethem in northern areas, transportable by our Mi17 fleet
Use them with rapid deployment units in punjab and sindh as well where these can be moved quickly by air.
An excellent choice for us and a must required to be honest. Using artillery rockets with these will be an additional bonus for sure but these are required even without it. In today's warfare you cannot move those artillery on mules and expect your guys to defend against rapidly moving enemy. Yes our northern areas have good road access but a few guns that can be caried by our helicopter fleet will be a huge plus for sure. I hope our military planners are thinking about this as well.



Path-Finder said:


> Damn I actually pointed out Chinese and Russian sensor fuzed/fused ammo on the other thread but no + for me. This resembles the Russian one quite a bit.


Sorry that i missed it. Do guide me to that post please!


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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Sorry that i missed it. Do guide me to that post please!


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/cbu-105-the-real-threat-to-our-armored-columns.496964/page-6

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## Gryphon

*Pakistan Machine Tool Factory 60mm Commando mortar*
*




*
_This 60mm Commando mortar is very lightweight & uses a bipod as shown. This is from Pakistan Machine Tool Factory, Ltd. (PMTF)_


*DEVELOPMENT OF MORTAR 60 MM (COMMANDO TYPE)*
Through our in-house R&D efforts PMTF has developed Commando Type Mortar 60 MM. this is
light and easy to use. The service of this Mortar will support agencies to execute commando
actions with quick respond of the weapons. The sample of the Mortar is handed over to
inspectorate of Armaments (Inspection Authority for Pak Army) to carryout detailed inspection of
the developed weapons and also conducts its live firing tests. So that PMTF may include these
weapons in our regular production cycle. Since currently, we foresee the increasing requirement
of these weapons to the different agencies in local and for export.

http://moip.gov.pk/moip/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2013-14 (Final).pdf

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## Super Falcon

Nora should be bought or G 5


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## Gryphon

*Denel Land Systems upgrading SA Army G6s*

_Written by Guy Martin, Tuesday, 20 June 2017_






Denel Land Systems is in the process of executing an Armscor contract that will lead to an upgrade of the South African Army’s G6s to address obsolescence.

In addition, Denel Land Systems is in the process of qualifying a new Laying and Navigation system for the SA Army that will incorporate the latest computing systems and inertial navigation mechanisms. The new system integrates seamlessly with the SA Army Artillery Target Acquisition and Tracking system, and will speed up the ability to navigate and fire accurately, Denel Land Systems said.

This system will be deployed on the SA Army G5s, G6s and Bateleur Multiple Launch Rocket Systems. The development and qualification of both projects will last about another year before the system is delivered.

The South African Army is believed to have approximately six G6s in active service and around 40 in storage, as well as over 70 G5 towed 155 mm artillery pieces, with the majority also in storage.

Various upgrades and improvements have been made over the years to the South African Army’s G6s, including powerpack upgrades, updating of the charge and ammunition system and new target acquisition and fire control system.

Denel Land Systems CEO Stephan Burger told defenceWeb artillery is a medium term growth area for Denel Land Systems, with the 155mm T5-52 Mounted Gun System the biggest focus area as it is a capable, affordable system. The 155mm G6-52 Self Propelled Gun System is also a big focus as well as G6 upgrades – a number of clients have requested upgrades for their systems.

Burger said the company is pursuing four to five opportunities on the artillery front, and even if only two of those opportunities are realised, the company will have its hands full, but he is confident three of those will be realised in the foreseeable future. Denel last year completed very successful trials of the T5-52 in Pakistan, but Burger said India also has a requirement for mounted artillery that Denel might participate in.

He said the United Arab Emirates and African countries have also expressed interest in Denel’s T5 Mounted Gun Systems. Denel’s artillery systems are currently operational in South Africa, the UAE, Oman and Malaysia.

The 105mm Light Artillery Gun, which stems from the Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO) 105 mm artillery piece, is on the backburner, and is a medium to long term opportunity – the focus at the moment is on other artillery opportunities with existing weapons. The105 mm howitzer still needs to complete its qualification, which includes the ammunition suite.

Burger said Denel gets many enquiries about the 105mm system and is looking for partners to invest in the conclusion of its development. The South African Army is contemplating the acquisition of new light artillery, and issued a request for information last year. If this project goes ahead, it may hasten 105mm Light Gun development.

The 105 mm Light Artillery Gun has the logistics footprint of a 105 mm howitzer but the range and terminal performance of a 155 mm system, with superior accuracy. Work on the 58-calibre project started during the 1990s under Project LEO, a South African Army/Armscor research and development programme.

Rheinmetall Denel Munition developed a range of munitions for the 105mm Light Artillery Gun. Boat tail rounds achieved a range of 24 km in testing, while the base bleed shells have a range of more than 30 km. The 105mm IHE PFF (Insensitive High Explosive Pre-Formed Fragmentation) projectile has recently been type classified for use in USA and NATO artillery guns.

Denel Land Systems upgrading SA Army G6s | defenceWeb

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877458583327297536

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877458583327297536


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877458583327297536
> View attachment 405263


I believe they r getting the info from our page as it was first disclosed here. 

Right sir ?

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe they r getting the info from our page as it was first disclosed here.
> 
> Right sir ?


Possible.


----------



## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe they r getting the info from our page as it was first disclosed here.
> 
> Right sir ?


Yes Sir some of these news are being taken from this forum now. Many were taken by firearmblog also


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## Gryphon

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe they r getting the info from our page as it was first disclosed here.
> 
> Right sir ?



It is based on import data, text is copied from quwa.org (the article has few errors like date).

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## Ahmet Pasha

How do these guns stack up against the ones india recently bought from uncle sam?


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> How do these guns stack up against the ones india recently bought from uncle sam?


South Korean Guns are quite Good but the advantage M777 has is that it's light weight so easy to transport


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## Hulk

jha said:


> Good...This should wake up the lazy @$$es in India....


Things have started rolling for us already. We have 4 types of guns in different process. Yeah maybe this can help speed up little bit.



jha said:


> Nothing is moving..The BOFORS Scandal ghost has still not left the Ministry..
> Around 3000 New Howitzers are to be inducted and not a single gun has been purchased in last 25 years...


Did we not have two M777 already. Dhanush ATGS and K9 in different stages of manufacturing.


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## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> How do these guns stack up against the ones india recently bought from uncle sam?


M777 are ultra light weight guns in 155mm category. Advantage, air transport via chopper. 
This korean gun is essentially an upgraded M114. Our interest in this seem to based on two points or anyone of them

We were originally look for towed guns and that was planned, SPH wheeled were being looked at and towed were to follow. If that interest is the reason, there may be more types comming for trials
We are looking to upgrade our M114 and are evaluating this gun so we can get a few of these and get our M114 upgraded as well.
Wheeled SPH program is not dead either.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879980244240871428

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879979631172079616

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879985178218770432
very interesting developments from Serbia!

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879979631172079616



A report by Pravda (Serbia) said Sumadija is under trials in Pakistan.

@Penguin 

Here it is.

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## monitor

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A report by Pravda (Serbia) said Sumadija is under trials in Pakistan.
> 
> @Penguin
> 
> Here it is.


Interesting thing is Aleksandar new 155 mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer also use same chasis as Sumajia . It will lessen logistics nightmare for it's customer.


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## proka89

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A report by Pravda (Serbia) said Sumadija is under trials in Pakistan.


Most probably false report. I don't believe that Sumadija will be ready for testing any time soon, it's still under development.



monitor said:


> Interesting thing is Aleksandar new 155 mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer also use same chasis as Sumajia . It will lessen logistics nightmare for it's customer.



Nora B52, Aleksandar and Sumadija are using modified KAMAZ 6560 chasis.

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## Ahmet Pasha

When last checked Pakistan was intersted in Nora B52/2


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## Path-Finder



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## Ahmet Pasha

Can it reload by itself cuz I saw a french sph that could reload itself operating in ME


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## Penguin

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A report by Pravda (Serbia) said Sumadija is under trials in Pakistan.
> 
> @Penguin
> 
> Here it is.


Finally ;-)
Thx.

So, Sumadija rocket can be fired from 4-rocket carrying 8x8 truck chassis, or from recapitalized FROG-7 TEL (Zil 135)

"The Sumadija can be configured with different types of launcher station according to the mission requirements. To fire the Jerina 1 missile, the vehicle can be fitted with two to four tube launchers each containing two missiles. With the use of the Jerina 2 unguided rocket, the vehicle can be fitted with four modules of 3 tube launchers offering the possibility to carried a total of 12 unguided rockets.

The Jerina 1 is guided ammunition using a inertial navigation system INS/GPS and a guidance system to control the fly of the missile. This missile can be fire from a range of 70 km to 285 km. The front of the missile is fitted with an HE fragmentation warhead which has a weight of 20 kg.

The Jerina 2 is unguided rocket with a caliber of 267mm and an HE/fragmentation warhead with a weight of 110 kg."

http://www.armyrecognition.com/part..._system_yugoimport_partner_2017_12706172.html



proka89 said:


> Nora B52, Aleksandar and Sumadija are using modified KAMAZ 6560 chasis.



Sure?

"At Partner 2017, the Defense Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbian Defense Company Yugoimport unveils the Sumadija, a new multiple rocket and missile launcher system based on a 8x8 _Tatra _truck chassis. This artillery system is able to fire guided missiles and unguided rockets. "
See http://worlddefencenews.blogspot.nl/2017/06/yugoimport-unveils-sumadija-multiple.html

"The new Sumadija is based on the same Tatra truck chassis which is used for the self-propelled artillery howitzer Nora B-52. "
See http://www.armyrecognition.com/part..._system_yugoimport_partner_2017_12706172.html

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## proka89

Penguin said:


> Sure?
> 
> "At Partner 2017, the Defense Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbian Defense Company Yugoimport unveils the Sumadija, a new multiple rocket and missile launcher system based on a 8x8 _Tatra _truck chassis. This artillery system is able to fire guided missiles and unguided rockets. "
> See http://worlddefencenews.blogspot.nl/2017/06/yugoimport-unveils-sumadija-multiple.html
> 
> "The new Sumadija is based on the same Tatra truck chassis which is used for the self-propelled artillery howitzer Nora B-52. "
> See http://www.armyrecognition.com/part..._system_yugoimport_partner_2017_12706172.html



Probably mistake made by armyrecognition. Since 2008 Yugoimport is using KAMAZ chassis. First version of Nora B52 without any armor that went to Burma, used KAMAZ 63501, and now they are using KAMAZ 6560


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## Ahmet Pasha

@Penguin @Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

Guys any chances of new turkish sph's to be trialed in Pakistan?


----------



## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> @Penguin @Path-Finder @TheOccupiedKashmir @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Guys any chances of new turkish sph's to be trialed in Pakistan?


Stay tuned to find out more!


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## peruni

New 155mm Nora MGS-25 is now in market.

Designed to be automatic and in future can easy became full robot 155mm gun.

Design was planed since 2009 and was designated as K2.

Crucial better improvements from predecessors and new features was planed:

-25 liter chamber
-higher rate of fire
-laser guided long range ammunition
-smaller crew of 3 man
-new automated functions like automatic re-upload of gun automatic loader
-smaller weight~25 tonnes
-automatic leveling of gun in north direction
-new VLAP, smoke and light grenade

Development started in 2012.

Nora MGS-25 named "Alexander" comes with 12 rounds ready for fire in a revolver type of automatic loader and has 12 additional ammunition that are stored in a storage box located at back after the crew cabin and engine-hydraulic compartment.

New automatic loading system can reload ammunition compartment in a back of a gun with 12 shells.
MGS-25 has a rate of fire of 6 rounds per minute and can continue firing operations until all ammunition is used on vehicle.
Maximum range is 56 km with new the 155 mm HE ERFB RA/BB (VLAP) domestically produced. 

It is planned to finish development and domestically produce new 155mm laser guided projectile.

MGS-25 can be remotely controlled by its crew via separate remote control up to 100 meters from vehicle thanks to high level of automation of all functions. It is a robotic platform essentially. 

New module can be placed on any chassis including vehicle and tracked that can handle its dimensions and weight and could be used as a main gun or artillery gun on warships.

There is a new development in Mortars in Serbia with a new round for 120mm mortars with a range of 13.5km.

As I mentioned before Pakistan could make great deals if it partners with Serbia for many different artillery upgrades and production.

That includes Nora MGS-25, Nora B-52, producing VLAP rounds and other round, upguning Pakistan existing 130mm to 155mm(we had this in offering for a few decades now since 1986), automation of Pakistan existing 122mm to Sora 122mm level with 6 barrel auto-loader, making 105mm with longer caliber barrel mounted on trucks, producing towed 155mm Nora A1 or M08 with longer barrel and many others including upgrading yours M114 155mm guns.

And we are open for some new joint ventures like new light 105mm gun, laser guided air to ground missiles, COIN airplanes and many more. 

We had developed artillery Nora M-84 system before 1984 that had a range of 24km without unassisted projectile and today it is 2017 and still many countries had not achieved such a result with their guns.

I personally don't see what South Korea has to offer that we did not already done decades before in artillery segment. Only thing they have better is tracked vehicle for 155mm K-9 artillery because we had stop our producing of tracked vehicles and development of vehicles that could be used for such a purpose. When you talk about artillery gun we have our share of technology in world that has long time ago showed our capabilities and we are still improving and we are leading in many segments and offering unbeatable price/performance ratio.

MGS-25 comes with modern FCS and can be commanded on battery and division level trough appropriate communications and software.

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## Path-Finder

peruni said:


> New 155mm Nora MGS-25 is now in market.
> 
> Designed to be automatic and in future can easy became full robot 155mm gun.
> 
> Design was planed since 2009 and was designated as K2.
> 
> Crucial better improvements from predecessors and new features was planed:
> 
> -25 liter chamber
> -higher rate of fire
> -laser guided long range ammunition
> -smaller crew of 3 man
> -new automated functions like automatic re-upload of gun automatic loader
> -smaller weight~25 tonnes
> -automatic leveling of gun in north direction
> -new VLAP, smoke and light grenade
> 
> Development started in 2012.
> 
> Nora MGS-25 named "Alexander" comes with 12 rounds ready for fire in a revolver type of automatic loader and has 12 additional ammunition that are stored in a storage box located at back after the crew cabin and engine-hydraulic compartment.
> 
> New automatic loading system can reload ammunition compartment in a back of a gun with 12 shells.
> MGS-25 has a rate of fire of 6 rounds per minute and can continue firing operations until all ammunition is used on vehicle.
> Maximum range is 56 km with new the 155 mm HE ERFB RA/BB (VLAP) domestically produced.
> 
> It is planned to finish development and domestically produce new 155mm laser guided projectile.
> 
> MGS-25 can be remotely controlled by its crew via separate remote control up to 100 meters from vehicle thanks to high level of automation of all functions. It is a robotic platform essentially.
> 
> New module can be placed on any chassis including vehicle and tracked that can handle its dimensions and weight and could be used as a main gun or artillery gun on warships.
> 
> There is a new development in Mortars in Serbia with a new round for 120mm mortars with a range of 13.5km.
> 
> As I mentioned before Pakistan could make great deals if it partners with Serbia for many different artillery upgrades and production.
> 
> That includes Nora MGS-25, Nora B-52, producing VLAP rounds and other round, upguning Pakistan existing 130mm to 155mm(we had this in offering for a few decades now since 1986), automation of Pakistan existing 122mm to Sora 122mm level with 6 barrel auto-loader, making 105mm with longer caliber barrel mounted on trucks, producing towed 155mm Nora A1 or M08 with longer barrel and many others including upgrading yours M114 155mm guns.
> 
> And we are open for some new joint ventures like new light 105mm gun, laser guided air to ground missiles, COIN airplanes and many more.
> 
> We had developed artillery Nora M-84 system before 1984 that had a range of 24km without unassisted projectile and today it is 2017 and still many countries had not achieved such a result with their guns.
> 
> I personally don't see what South Korea has to offer that we did not already done decades before in artillery segment. Only thing they have better is tracked vehicle for 155mm K-9 artillery because we had stop our producing of tracked vehicles and development of vehicles that could be used for such a purpose. When you talk about artillery gun we have our share of technology in world that has long time ago showed our capabilities and we are still improving and we are leading in many segments and offering unbeatable price/performance ratio.
> 
> MGS-25 comes with modern FCS and can be commanded on battery and division level trough appropriate communications and software.


any more info on the 120mm mortar with 13 km range?


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## peruni

It is a range of a new ammo fired from our existing mortars including first and foremost heavy M-95 120mm mortar made currently by domestic producer Prva Petoletka Trstenik. 

M-95 mortar has range of 9300 meters with VD HM-95 mortar mine and with this new range goes up to 13.5km. 
M-95 mortar has greater range compared to older M-74 120mm mortar that is still produced. 
M-95 120mm mortar has rate of fire of about 9 to 15 mines per minute and it is about 212kg. 
M-74 mortar has maximum range of about 6.4km and has shorter barrel than M-95 mortar. 
We alsa have M-75 light mortar that weights 178kg and has range od 9.4km with Mk12P1-L mortar shell. 

With new long range 120mm shell M-95 and M-75 light mortar could have range of about 13km. Mortar shell is produced by Krusik Valjevo and they will produce a new 13.5km shell.


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## Penguin

proka89 said:


> Probably mistake made by armyrecognition. Since 2008 Yugoimport is using KAMAZ chassis. First version of Nora B52 without any armor that went to Burma, used KAMAZ 63501, and now they are using KAMAZ 6560


Could be. Since Nora B52 dates back to last century. Although Army Recognition generally is proven trustworthy. Tatra did take over the _Serbian_ state-owned construction and agricultural machinery maker _IMK_ 14. This produces

LRSVM Morava
M-94 Plamen-S
M-96 Orkan II
Tank power packs
http://www.armyrecognition.com/part...owitzer_yugoimport_partner_2017_12706173.html
_Serbian_ state-owned construction and agricultural machinery maker _IMK_ 14.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMK_14._oktobar_Kruševac#Military_program

But those FAP trucks are Benz based IIRC

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## DESERT FIGHTER

peruni said:


> New 155mm Nora MGS-25 is now in market.
> 
> Designed to be automatic and in future can easy became full robot 155mm gun.
> 
> Design was planed since 2009 and was designated as K2.
> 
> Crucial better improvements from predecessors and new features was planed:
> 
> -25 liter chamber
> -higher rate of fire
> -laser guided long range ammunition
> -smaller crew of 3 man
> -new automated functions like automatic re-upload of gun automatic loader
> -smaller weight~25 tonnes
> -automatic leveling of gun in north direction
> -new VLAP, smoke and light grenade
> 
> Development started in 2012.
> 
> Nora MGS-25 named "Alexander" comes with 12 rounds ready for fire in a revolver type of automatic loader and has 12 additional ammunition that are stored in a storage box located at back after the crew cabin and engine-hydraulic compartment.
> 
> New automatic loading system can reload ammunition compartment in a back of a gun with 12 shells.
> MGS-25 has a rate of fire of 6 rounds per minute and can continue firing operations until all ammunition is used on vehicle.
> Maximum range is 56 km with new the 155 mm HE ERFB RA/BB (VLAP) domestically produced.
> 
> It is planned to finish development and domestically produce new 155mm laser guided projectile.
> 
> MGS-25 can be remotely controlled by its crew via separate remote control up to 100 meters from vehicle thanks to high level of automation of all functions. It is a robotic platform essentially.
> 
> New module can be placed on any chassis including vehicle and tracked that can handle its dimensions and weight and could be used as a main gun or artillery gun on warships.
> 
> There is a new development in Mortars in Serbia with a new round for 120mm mortars with a range of 13.5km.
> 
> As I mentioned before Pakistan could make great deals if it partners with Serbia for many different artillery upgrades and production.
> 
> That includes Nora MGS-25, Nora B-52, producing VLAP rounds and other round, upguning Pakistan existing 130mm to 155mm(we had this in offering for a few decades now since 1986), automation of Pakistan existing 122mm to Sora 122mm level with 6 barrel auto-loader, making 105mm with longer caliber barrel mounted on trucks, producing towed 155mm Nora A1 or M08 with longer barrel and many others including upgrading yours M114 155mm guns.
> 
> And we are open for some new joint ventures like new light 105mm gun, laser guided air to ground missiles, COIN airplanes and many more.
> 
> We had developed artillery Nora M-84 system before 1984 that had a range of 24km without unassisted projectile and today it is 2017 and still many countries had not achieved such a result with their guns.
> 
> I personally don't see what South Korea has to offer that we did not already done decades before in artillery segment. Only thing they have better is tracked vehicle for 155mm K-9 artillery because we had stop our producing of tracked vehicles and development of vehicles that could be used for such a purpose. When you talk about artillery gun we have our share of technology in world that has long time ago showed our capabilities and we are still improving and we are leading in many segments and offering unbeatable price/performance ratio.
> 
> MGS-25 comes with modern FCS and can be commanded on battery and division level trough appropriate communications and software.


Upgrading old 130mm guns would be helpful.. I wonder if Serbia is in talks.. considering Koreans have sent their KHs for the same purpose..

And they helped Pak produce VLAP ammunition.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> A report by Pravda (Serbia) said Sumadija is under trials in Pakistan.
> 
> @Penguin
> 
> Here it is.


@Dazzler. @The Deterrent @Penguin. can't we work out older Abdali/Haft series short range missiles into something like this?

Maybe that's what they are thinking wrt new "indigenous advanced MLRS" modp report mentioned?


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Upgrading old 130mm guns would be helpful.. I wonder if Serbia is in talks.. considering Koreans have sent their KHs for the same purpose..
> 
> And they helped Pak produce VLAP ammunition.
> 
> 
> @Dazzler. @The Deterrent @Penguin. can't we work out older Abdali/Haft series short range missiles into something like this?
> 
> Maybe that's what they are thinking wrt new "indigenous advanced MLRS" modp report mentioned?


Exactly why we can't we work on Missiles like Abdali and Ghazali and make a MRL like similar to M270 and launch them.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Exactly why we can't we work on Missiles like Abdali and Ghazali and make a MRL like similar to M270 and launch them.



They have been retired?

And are pretty outdated and "big" physically.

Although Ghaznavi or Abdali used the same rail type launcher as the Long
Ranged Serbian missile.


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They have been retired?
> 
> And are pretty outdated and "big" physically.
> 
> Although Ghaznavi or Abdali used the same rail type launcher as the Long
> Ranged Serbian missile.


Not exactly those Missiles but if we can develop Missiles of those size and we can develop NASR why can't we develop a MRL like M270 of USA or some other MRL in the world


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## Super Falcon

Pak armed forces takes decades over decades to finally think of buying and waste decades to choose another half decade to sign and another half to finally induct budget of 4 decades and buys 1 equipment which will be outdated at time of induction

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## Muhammad Omar

Super Falcon said:


> Pak armed forces takes decades over decades to finally think of buying and waste decades to choose another half decade to sign and another half to finally induct budget of 4 decades and buys 1 equipment which will be outdated at time of induction



So true...


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## The Deterrent

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Dazzler. @The Deterrent @Penguin. can't we work out older Abdali/Haft series short range missiles into something like this?
> 
> Maybe that's what they are thinking wrt new "indigenous advanced MLRS" modp report mentioned?


Abdali never entered series production, there was a plan to add more systems on a single launcher along similar lines. The "Indigenous MLRS" stuff might refer to this but I'm not sure.

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> Abdali never entered series production, there was a plan to add more systems on a single launcher along similar lines. The "Indigenous MLRS" stuff might refer to this but I'm not sure.



If Abdali is not Operational with Pakistan, than it could be made available for commercial markets ....?? R&D ke Karacha hi poora ho jay ga ....

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## Path-Finder

You can see it in Pakistani Desert

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## Kompromat

More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.

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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.


looks like you got yourself on ISPR's payrole


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## Kompromat

Nahh, I just have a good set of ears 



balixd said:


> looks like you got yourself on ISPR's payrole

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.


Why South African System not tested ???



Horus said:


> Nahh, I just have a good set of ears


Yes Yes Off Course


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## Path-Finder

I take Caesar coming was not true!!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I take Caesar coming was not true!!


Well can't say it can come the real surprise is that South African system not tested yet.

@Horus


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## Suff Shikan

Zarvan said:


> Well can't say it can come the real surprise is that South African system not tested yet.
> 
> @Horus



G6 Rhino should be considered

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## Zarvan

Suff Shikan said:


> G6 Rhino should be considered


Pakistan is looking for Truck Mounted Artillery Gun. G6 is different thing

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## Arsalan

Suff Shikan said:


> G6 Rhino should be considered


T5-52 was considered.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> T5-52 was considered.


But Horus is saying it was not even tested I wonder why ????


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.


European country ?


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Well can't say it can come the real surprise is that South African system not tested yet.
> 
> @Horus


more confusion and nothing more! there are people who said it has been tested and horus says completely something else.



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is looking for Truck Mounted Artillery Gun. G6 is different thing


Hazrat Trucks are on wheels so is G6, think about it Truck based is because it is using wheels instead to tank tracks.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is looking for Truck Mounted Artillery Gun. G6 is different thing


We are looking for WHEELED artillery, G6 is also wheeled!



Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.


The M109 WONT effect "WHEELED SPH" procurement plans. Wont make sense. Just saying.

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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> Nahh, I just have a good set of ears


heheheh---just know, i meant it on a lighter note as a jk

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## Army research

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.


Horus tell me these are used cheap ones so they don't affect the main plan of getting wheeled sph?


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## pzfz

more M109s is good but it adds nothing in terms of capability. Still the same restricted movement 39 caliber short ranged gun compared to what Pak needs. Good for Cholistan and Thar but nowhere else.

G6 might be on a wheeled chassis but that's not the same thing as being on a wheeled truck. Usually the truck mounted ones can be decoupled if one of the components (chassis/motor and the gun) break down. The G6 breaks down you're done for the whole system.

Can't believe people are still enamored by the Yugo gun (Nora B52). It's basically an upgunned soviet era M46. It doesn't have the firing rate nor the range of the Denel gun. If it's selected it will be another one on a list of questionable procurement decisions by the Pak armed forces.

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## khanasifm

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.



Middle East ?? The South Korean gun being tested looks like light weight class 6k kg for mountain corps 11, 10 etc replacing 105 mm with heavier Caliber ?? Guessing


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## Suff Shikan

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is looking for Truck Mounted Artillery Gun. G6 is different thing



Then Caesar looks a better option.... even t5-52 and NORA are not bad


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## fatman17

THE WORLD’S NUMBER ONE MILITARY AVIATION MAGAZINE

Home › News › Russian Helicopters reveals Mi-171Sh-VN gunship

Russian Helicopters reveals Mi-171Sh-VN gunship

Published: July 25th, 2017

Photo: Stanislav Bazhenov








Russian Helicopters, a subsidiary of the Rostec state corporation, has unveiled a new, heavily armed, variant of the Mi-171Sh military transport helicopter at the MAKS 2017 airshow at Zhukovsky, outside Moscow.

The Mi-171Sh-VN is configured as a gunship for special operations and according to officials has been developed in light of experience from Russia’s campaign in Syria.

As well as additional weapons, the Mi-171Sh-VN includes other features to improve survivability. In addition to three crew, the helicopter can accommodate up to 37 troops.

The package of features incorporated in the Mi-171Sh-VN will apparently be offered to international customers as an option for the basic Mi-171Sh assault transport model.

Data published by Russian Helicopters includes a maximum take-off weight of 13,500kg, a maximum payload of 4,000kg, a ferry range of 1,065km, a service ceiling of 6,000m, a maximum speed of 280km/h, and a cruising speed of 260km/h.

The basic Mi-171Sh is an export version of the Russian military Mi-8AMTSh, which has been used in Syria. This latter aircraft is basically similar to the Mi-8MTV-5 but is produced by the Ulan-Ude plant, rather than Kazan Helicopters.



Stanislav Bazhenov


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## peruni

pzfz said:


> Can't believe people are still enamored by the Yugo gun (Nora B52). It's basically an upgunned soviet era M46. It doesn't have the firing rate nor the range of the Denel gun. If it's selected it will be another one on a list of questionable procurement decisions by the Pak armed forces.




Nora B52 is not upgunned M46. We have developed more then two decades ago a separate kit for upgunning M-46 based partial on previously developed Nora M84 technology. And Pakistan could use that kit to modernise existing M-46 - Type 59, 59-1. It includes new longer barrel, combustible powder charges, FCS and many other improvements. 

Nora B-52 has a range depending on charge and missile used between 27km and 56km when we talk about ammo that Serbia produce and additionally can use ammo from any other manufacturer for 155mm guns with appropriate characteristics. There is currently few version of Nora B-52 that Serbia offers: K-I, K1 and KE version. All have different features and level of automation and all have one of the best FCS in world for artillery.

Newly developed version MGS-25 it is fully robotic system that can be operated by remote control. It could be operated with only 1 crewman in a case of need , standard crew is three.

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## Gryphon

Horus said:


> More M-109s coming from a country i can't disclosed right now. Big boost for our gun slingers it will be.



Any info about the number of guns to be delivered ?



khanasifm said:


> Middle East ?? The South Korean gun being tested looks like light weight class 6k kg for mountain corps 11, 10 etc replacing 105 mm with heavier Caliber ?? Guessing



X Corps and XI Corps mostly use 122mm and 130mm towed guns. Not the M114.

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## denel

pzfz said:


> more M109s is good but it adds nothing in terms of capability. Still the same restricted movement 39 caliber short ranged gun compared to what Pak needs. Good for Cholistan and Thar but nowhere else.
> 
> G6 might be on a wheeled chassis but that's not the same thing as being on a wheeled truck. Usually the truck mounted ones can be decoupled if one of the components (chassis/motor and the gun) break down. The G6 breaks down you're done for the whole system.
> 
> Can't believe people are still enamored by the Yugo gun (Nora B52). It's basically an upgunned soviet era M46. It doesn't have the firing rate nor the range of the Denel gun. If it's selected it will be another one on a list of questionable procurement decisions by the Pak armed forces.


Thank you. G6 is a complete mobile system not a bolted G5 on back of a commercial truck. G5 is a wheeled unit which is towed by a SAMIL truck; it has its own apu which is used to move it from place to place as well. The range of G5/G6 is well know as well as its accuracy.

We got our backsides kicked by Nora in first Angola ops which prompted us to start work on G5/G6s. Following engagements, G5/G6s proved themselves worthy against the cubans.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Thank you. G6 is a complete mobile system not a bolted G5 on back of a commercial truck. G5 is a wheeled unit which is towed by a SAMIL truck; it has its own apu which is used to move it from place to place as well. The range of G5/G6 is well know as well as its accuracy.
> 
> We got our backsides kicked by Nora in first Angola ops which prompted us to start work on G5/G6s. Following engagements, G5/G6s proved themselves worthy against the cubans.


I'm impressed by the goals laid in the G7 LEO program. Granted, there are some very lightweight 105 mm guns emerging from the US and Turkey, but a 105 mm guns with the terminal performance and range of a 155 mm - whilst being 50-60% the total mass - is enticing. If Denel can bring the weight down to less than 3,000kg then it'd be possible to Integrate the gun to a light armoured vehicle and use as an agile SPH. Not to mention ease of lifting it by air (with its crew and munitions).

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## pzfz

peruni said:


> Nora B52 is not upgunned M46. We have developed more then two decades ago a separate kit for upgunning M-46 based partial on previously developed Nora M84 technology. And Pakistan could use that kit to modernise existing M-46 - Type 59, 59-1. It includes new longer barrel, combustible powder charges, FCS and many other improvements.
> 
> Nora B-52 has a range depending on charge and missile used between 27km and 56km when we talk about ammo that Serbia produce and additionally can use ammo from any other manufacturer for 155mm guns with appropriate characteristics. There is currently few version of Nora B-52 that Serbia offers: K-I, K1 and KE version. All have different features and level of automation and all have one of the best FCS in world for artillery.
> 
> Newly developed version MGS-25 it is fully robotic system that can be operated by remote control. It could be operated with only 1 crewman in a case of need , standard crew is three.



The M84 is the result of work done on the M46 and the US M114. Nora SPA is essentially a M84 mated to a truck.

Don't get me wrong, Nora would be excellent to up-gun the existing type 59s in service; but as the primary modern howitzer for the next 50 years? No Thanks. Using different ammo isn't something new to the Nora, nor is the range. Denel outguns it - that too with a higher rate of fire. Denel also provides a full range of products: tracked, wheeled, trucked, and apu. Simply i like the lineage of the Denel gun (Gerard Bull's GC45) vs that of the Nora.

The Aleksandar is like i (and you) said an automated Nora B52 similar to the Swedish Archer. A very good feature. But the gun remains the same.


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm impressed by the goals laid in the G7 LEO program. Granted, there are some very lightweight 105 mm guns emerging from the US and Turkey, but a 105 mm guns with the terminal performance and range of a 155 mm - whilst being 50-60% the total mass - is enticing. If Denel can bring the weight down to less than 3,000kg then it'd be possible to Integrate the gun to a light armoured vehicle and use as an agile SPH. Not to mention ease of lifting it by air (with its crew and munitions).


Yes, 105mm was specifically evolved from the need during an internal conference to address the needs of SANDF deployment on AU missions for light weight artillery which could give same results as G5. Our biggest challenge has been from European competitors who try to block and use proxy dominions to get their sales in; everyone knows that neither the US artillery or europeans are capable of matching this for past several decades.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Also their mraps are good enough today because of South African technical expertise.


denel said:


> Yes, 105mm was specifically evolved from the need during an internal conference to address the needs of SANDF deployment on AU missions for light weight artillery which could give same results as G5. Our biggest challenge has been from European competitors who try to block and use proxy dominions to get their sales in; everyone knows that neither the US artillery or europeans are capable of matching this for past several decades.


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## denel

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Also their mraps are good enough today because of South African technical expertise.


Yes they are. I was on flight with GM chief engineer and when I told him, the casualties which would be incurred with their vehicles in Iraq because of flatbeds, he laughed at me. My 2cents were, time will tell and you will see our expertise come to serve you. That is exactly what then occurred in 2008.


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## Ahmet Pasha

denel said:


> Yes they are. I was on flight with GM chief engineer and when I told him, the casualties which would be incurred with their vehicles in Iraq because of flatbeds, he laughed at me. My 2cents were, time will tell and you will see our expertise come to serve you. That is exactly what then occurred in 2008.



Yeah muricans are hard headed that way. Too arrogant towards other people until they need help.


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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Yes they are. I was on flight with GM chief engineer and when I told him, the casualties which would be incurred with their vehicles in Iraq because of flatbeds, he laughed at me. My 2cents were, time will tell and you will see our expertise come to serve you. That is exactly what then occurred in 2008.


Damn you got around! GM make bad cars that is a fact

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Damn you got around! GM make bad cars that is a fact


ja man. we have opel here which is rubbish. GM just pulled out completely.


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## peruni

pzfz said:


> The M84 is the result of work done on the M46 and the US M114. Nora SPA is essentially a M84 mated to a truck.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Nora would be excellent to up-gun the existing type 59s in service; but as the primary modern howitzer for the next 50 years? No Thanks. Using different ammo isn't something new to the Nora, nor is the range. Denel outguns it - that too with a higher rate of fire. Denel also provides a full range of products: tracked, wheeled, trucked, and apu. Simply i like the lineage of the Denel gun (Gerard Bull's GC45) vs that of the Nora.
> 
> The Aleksandar is like i (and you) said an automated Nora B52 similar to the Swedish Archer. A very good feature. But the gun remains the same.



*Nora M-84* has nothing to do with *M-46*. It is a program started in 1975 in order to get better gun than *M-65* that was based on US *M-114* and was graded as unsatisfactory by Yugoslavia Peoples Army and was already produced in SFRY(Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia) in small series. New gun *NORA*(short for - New artillery weapon - in Serbian) program had many other goals like to be better than *D-20* but in same time to use ammo for D-20 and etc. I repeat Nora M-84 has nothing to do with M-46. Later when M-84 was already since 1984 in production and use in 1986 MTI(*Military Technical Institute in Belgrade*) developed a set for modernization of existing M-46 called *M-46/86* in two calibers:155 and 152mm one for domestic use and one for export. That set was finally developed in 1986 and has been modernized since then. Latest version of M-46 set in 155mm caliber has designation *M46/10 *and was developed in 2010 it comes with many improvements and comes with new charges and modern FCS*.*

Don't you get me wrong but if you knew anything about NORA and artillery development in Yugoslavia and now in Serbia you would knew that Gerard Bull was employee of Yugoslavia Peoples Army in 80's as specialist consultant for development of new artillery weapons and he assisted partially in *M-46/86 *program.
Later in 80's trough many Yugoslavia armament deals with Iraq(we sold them *D-30J* license, *Orkan M-87* and there was many more industry military cooperation including export of constructing documentation for 400mm 120km rocket etc.) he was introduced by Yugoslavian officers directly to Saddam Hussein and started selling his constructions and actively working in Iraq in order to develop super-gun and to improve Iraq Scud missile.

*Nora-B* was self — propelled 152mm gun M-84 with 45 caliber barrel that used FAP-2832 truck with manual loading and it was first version of TMG that used commercial truck chassis for a gun with such caliber and had scope and shot concept in mind.* Nora B52* is a new developed weapon in 155mm caliber and has little to do with Nora-B except part of a name.

Gun *MGS-25* has larger chamber and only big thing(not counting cables, hydraulic pipes, valves, switches, most part of FCS software and other smaller parts that has in common) the same with Nora B-52 is caliber 155mm and possibility to use same Kamaz truck chassis. MGS-25 has fully automated features including new auto-loader, new automatic reloading mechanism, new bigger chamber, new barrel, better FCS that use all new automated features etc.

*Archer* does not have automatic reloading and lacks many other features compared to MGS-25 and it was only in 2013 introduced with technical improvements that was common on Nora B-52 since 2008 as a working model. Working prototypes of Archer was delivered first time in 2014 and it was plagued with technical problems that delayed further deliveries.

Archer is not fully automated and not on pair with latest version of Nora-B52 in terms of automation and FCS.

And when we talk about history, technology and tradition in artillery you should know that in '80 Military Technical Institute in Belgrade was developing rail-gun and successfully tested two working prototypes. And now is 2017 and how many countries have achieved anything similar as of today?

As I sad before in terms of artillery Serbia is one of leading countries in world. You cannot find better deals in terms of money/performance and we could develop for money many solutions even to complete new designs according your needs as we had done for many other customers around world.

You already for example use *M-56* 105mm gun developed in Military Technical Institute in Belgrade and we have introduced new model *M-56A1* of that gun with 33 caliber and possibility to be mounted of truck called
*M-09 Soko 105mm* self-propelled gun. We are now developing a new light version of 105mm gun.

*G6-52* with same ammo and in same firing condition would probably have equal range like *NORA B-52, *but it still lacks automation level of NORA B-52.

*G-52 extended range* is probably similar with ranges of MGS-25 with same ammo but it is a lot worse in terms of automation compared to MGS-25.

*T5-52 *is a copy of NORA-B SP concept from 1984 with low level of automation mostly in electronics field(automatic laying and navigation system, new telecommunication, muzzle velocity radar and gun management computer). If we add this electronic to Nora-B concept from 1984 you get "modern" T5-52. Nora B-52 K0 first version produced in 2007 for Myanmar had more automatic features than this Denel version except automatic laying that is introduced in B-52 Nora K1. 

How many soldiers and how big logistic you need to supply for example 18 battery of 6 MGS-25 or Nora B-52 K-I and how many for same number of G6-52 or T5-52? That is one question aside weapons characteristic in terms of rate of fire and range that is very important. 

And one more but not less important thing that is not connected with any specific type of weapon. You should carefully chose country you cooperate. In terms of dealing with South Africa they are known as not reliable partner when it come to military cooperation. They depend largely on US Congress and other countries to give them go ahead for many deals. Serbia is reliable partner in all military cooperation since ever, even if you are struck by sanction we would honor our part of deal.

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## denel

peruni said:


> *Nora M-84* has nothing to do with *M-46*. It is a program started in 1975 in order to get better gun than *M-65* that was based on US *M-114* and was graded as unsatisfactory by Yugoslavia Peoples Army and was already produced in SFRY(Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia) in small series. New gun *NORA*(short for - New artillery weapon - in Serbian) program had many other goals like to be better than *D-20* but in same time to use ammo for D-20 and etc. I repeat Nora M-84 has nothing to do with M-46. Later when M-84 was already since 1984 in production and use in 1986 MTI(*Military Technical Institute in Belgrade*) developed a set for modernization of existing M-46 called *M-46/86* in two calibers:155 and 152mm one for domestic use and one for export. That set was finally developed in 1986 and has been modernized since then. Latest version of M-46 set in 155mm caliber has designation *M46/10 *and was developed in 2010 it comes with many improvements and comes with new charges and modern FCS*.*
> 
> Don't you get me wrong but if you knew anything about NORA and artillery development in Yugoslavia and now in Serbia you would knew that Gerard Bull was employee of Yugoslavia Peoples Army in 80's as specialist consultant for development of new artillery weapons and he assisted partially in *M-46/86 *program.
> Later in 80's trough many Yugoslavia armament deals with Iraq(we sold them *D-30J* license, *Orkan M-87* and there was many more industry military cooperation including export of constructing documentation for 400mm 120km rocket etc.) he was introduced by Yugoslavian officers directly to Saddam Hussein and started selling his constructions and actively working in Iraq in order to develop super-gun and to improve Iraq Scud missile.
> 
> *Nora-B* was self — propelled 152mm gun M-84 with 45 caliber barrel that used FAP-2832 truck with manual loading and it was first version of TMG that used commercial truck chassis for a gun with such caliber and had scope and shot concept in mind.* Nora B52* is a new developed weapon in 155mm caliber and has little to do with Nora-B except part of a name.
> 
> Gun *MGS-25* has larger chamber and only big thing(not counting cables, hydraulic pipes, valves, switches, most part of FCS software and other smaller parts that has in common) the same with Nora B-52 is caliber 155mm and possibility to use same Kamaz truck chassis. MGS-25 has fully automated features including new auto-loader, new automatic reloading mechanism, new bigger chamber, new barrel, better FCS that use all new automated features etc.
> 
> *Archer* does not have automatic reloading and lacks many other features compared to MGS-25 and it was only in 2013 introduced with technical improvements that was common on Nora B-52 since 2008 as a working model. Working prototypes of Archer was delivered first time in 2014 and it was plagued with technical problems that delayed further deliveries.
> 
> Archer is not fully automated and not on pair with latest version of Nora-B52 in terms of automation and FCS.
> 
> And when we talk about history, technology and tradition in artillery you should know that in '80 Military Technical Institute in Belgrade was developing rail-gun and successfully tested two working prototypes. And now is 2017 and how many countries have achieved anything similar as of today?
> 
> As I sad before in terms of artillery Serbia is one of leading countries in world. You cannot find better deals in terms of money/performance and we could develop for money many solutions even to complete new designs according your needs as we had done for many other customers around world.
> 
> You already for example use *M-56* 105mm gun developed in Military Technical Institute in Belgrade and we have introduced new model *M-56A1* of that gun with 33 caliber and possibility to be mounted of truck called
> *M-09 Soko 105mm* self-propelled gun. We are now developing a new light version of 105mm gun.
> 
> *G6-52* with same ammo and in same firing condition would probably have equal range like *NORA B-52, *but it still lacks automation level of NORA B-52.
> 
> *G-52 extended range* is probably similar with ranges of MGS-25 with same ammo but it is a lot worse in terms of automation compared to MGS-25.
> 
> *T5-52 *is a copy of NORA-B SP concept from 1984 with low level of automation mostly in electronics field(automatic laying and navigation system, new telecommunication, muzzle velocity radar and gun management computer). If we add this electronic to Nora-B concept from 1984 you get "modern" T5-52. Nora B-52 K0 first version produced in 2007 for Myanmar had more automatic features than this Denel version except automatic laying that is introduced in B-52 Nora K1.
> 
> How many soldiers and how big logistic you need to supply for example 18 battery of 6 MGS-25 or Nora B-52 K-I and how many for same number of G6-52 or T5-52? That is one question aside weapons characteristic in terms of rate of fire and range that is very important.
> 
> And one more but not less important thing that is not connected with any specific type of weapon. You should carefully chose country you cooperate. In terms of dealing with South Africa they are known as not reliable partner when it come to military cooperation. They depend largely on US Congress and other countries to give them go ahead for many deals. Serbia is reliable partner in all military cooperation since ever, even if you are struck by sanction we would honor our part of deal.



My friend. Your last note that we need US congress authorisation. We are not US puppets; in fact our former president told Clinton to jump in a swimming pool in front on the world media. We choose our alliances are not subject to anything from US especially given the long history of US support for Apartheid and how they shafted us time and time again.

South Africa is not dependent on anything from US. In fact it has been the US and Europeans who have muzzled every attempt to sell our weaponry. We have nothing from US in our technology that we need authorisation for. Please check your facts before writing this. In fact it has been the US who has come to us with a begging bowl for mine proof vehicles and thousands of vehicles were dispatched across to Iraq from here; Casspir then others formed the basis of their oshkosh and other named vehicles.

South Africa has been a reliable partner and supplier - Look at PAF, all the IFRs and mirage changes, H2 into Raad and so many other areas. We would have have been solid partners with Finns and others for technologies such as HMS etc if that was not the case; we have very specific and niece products and battle tested from radar, HMS, EW, ECM, artillery, Comms, AAms, stand off weapons, not to mention leaders in the field of mine proof vehicles (note, MARP is america coinage - we dont use that term here).

Biggest issue is corruption and minions that Europeans and Americans have at their fingers. They have proxies minions who sell out where ever we try to sell and we keep getting shut out because of that. For example, Pakistan is crying for mine proof vehicles; there is no political will to go against the establishment which is on US payroll to get useless vehicles instead of establishing a TOT/JV for complete in house development with either Armscor, or Paramount or additional smaller companies which are able to do this work.

Will appreciate you getting facts right before putting such false narratives out there. We know what sanctions are and that was a blessing for us to get our industries in place. thank you.

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## peruni

denel said:


> My friend. Your last note that we need US congress authorisation. We are not US puppets; in fact our former president told Clinton to jump in a swimming pool in front on the world media. We choose our alliances are not subject to anything from US especially given the long history of US support for Apartheid and how they shafted us time and time again.
> 
> South Africa is not dependent on anything from US. In fact it has been the US and Europeans who have muzzled every attempt to sell our weaponry. We have nothing from US in our technology that we need authorisation for. Please check your facts before writing this. In fact it has been the US who has come to us with a begging bowl for mine proof vehicles and thousands of vehicles were dispatched across to Iraq from here; Casspir then others formed the basis of their oshkosh and other named vehicles.
> 
> South Africa has been a reliable partner and supplier - Look at PAF, all the IFRs and mirage changes, H2 into Raad and so many other areas. We would have have been solid partners with Finns and others for technologies such as HMS etc if that was not the case; we have very specific and niece products and battle tested from radar, HMS, EW, ECM, artillery, Comms, AAms, stand off weapons, not to mention leaders in the field of mine proof vehicles (note, MARP is america coinage - we dont use that term here).
> 
> Biggest issue is corruption and minions that Europeans and Americans have at their fingers. They have proxies minions who sell out where ever we try to sell and we keep getting shut out because of that. For example, Pakistan is crying for mine proof vehicles; there is no political will to go against the establishment which is on US payroll to get useless vehicles instead of establishing a TOT/JV for complete in house development with either Armscor, or Paramount or additional smaller companies which are able to do this work.
> 
> Will appreciate you getting facts right before putting such false narratives out there. We know what sanctions are and that was a blessing for us to get our industries in place. thank you.




Ok, first I understand your point of view. But some things has nothing to do with puppet state or not puppet state.

Gerald Bull was later in his life US citizen that developed weapons and his howitzer technology is developed in USA and in one stage of his life he transferred that technology developed in USA and in part in Canada to Denel in South Africa. Any design and or technology developed in US and in case of transfer or sale under US law is required to have clearance of State Department office of Munitions Control in order to sale internationally. Gerald got approval so he was able to transfer technology to Denel. But that does not means that Denel can sell US technology again to third party without again seeking approval.

If you think that you can sale any peace of hardware or technology for military use and not just you but any country(it is not related to South Africa only) in world that is in part or fully developed or produced in US without their approval you are wrong.

In case of G-6 or any associated weapon with this design you are not just selling your own product and or design but a design developed in USA.

And you have many weapons system for example developed with technology from Israel and they will ask you also if you have permit to sale their technology to third party if you want to sale their designs in part or full.

This is in accordance of many domestic and international laws that are connected and regulate arms sale. Nothing to do with puppet or not.

And that is just one point of view...

One example of other point of view.

You have tried to sale in recent years weapons to Syria.

Than it came this:
USA: US WARNING TO SOUTH AFRICA OVER WEAPONS SALE TO SYRIA 





And this was why in some cases you could have made deals:
"Because of the international stature of South African President Nelson Mandela, the United States has up to now been willing to overlook the close ties he maintains with nations at odds with the United States, including Libya and Cuba."

But president Mandela is not longer among as living so they don't care any more about media picture related to South Africa and they will not turn a blind eye.

Did you finish sale of 650 millions USD weapons to Syria?

Nora is fully developed in Serbia, no other party can stop sales as no third party technology is involved. That is one point of view, and about other we proved that despite heavy sanctions or other meddling of third parties we always honored our deals for example take Iraq. 

I wish you and South Africa all the best...And let the best weapon win


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## denel

peruni said:


> Ok, first I understand your point of view. But some things has nothing to do with puppet state or not puppet state.
> 
> Gerald Bull was later in his life US citizen that developed weapons and his howitzer technology is developed in USA and in one stage of his life he transferred that technology developed in USA and in part in Canada to Denel in South Africa. Any design and or technology developed in US and in case of transfer or sale under US law is required to have clearance of State Department office of Munitions Control in order to sale internationally. Gerald got approval so he was able to transfer technology to Denel. But that does not means that Denel can sell US technology again to third party without again seeking approval.
> 
> If you think that you can sale any peace of hardware or technology for military use and not just you but any country(it is not related to South Africa only) in world that is in part or fully developed or produced in US without their approval you are wrong.
> 
> In case of G-6 or any associated weapon with this design you are not just selling your own product and or design but a design developed in USA.
> 
> And you have many weapons system for example developed with technology from Israel and they will ask you also if you have permit to sale their technology to third party if you want to sale their designs in part or full.
> 
> This is in accordance of many domestic and international laws that are connected and regulate arms sale. Nothing to do with puppet or not.
> 
> And that is just one point of view...
> 
> One example of other point of view.
> 
> You have tried to sale in recent years weapons to Syria.
> 
> Than it came this:
> USA: US WARNING TO SOUTH AFRICA OVER WEAPONS SALE TO SYRIA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this was why in some cases you could have made deals:
> "Because of the international stature of South African President Nelson Mandela, the United States has up to now been willing to overlook the close ties he maintains with nations at odds with the United States, including Libya and Cuba."
> 
> But president Mandela is not longer among as living so they don't care any more about media picture related to South Africa and they will not turn a blind eye.
> 
> Did you finish sale of 650 millions USD weapons to Syria?
> 
> Nora is fully developed in Serbia, no other party can stop sales as no third party technology is involved. That is one point of view, and about other we proved that despite heavy sanctions or other meddling of third parties we always honored our deals for example take Iraq.
> 
> I wish you and South Africa all the best...And let the best weapon win


that is fine from your view point. it was CSRC GC45 not US for correction. G5 had so many changes that it is a completely new system (rather was); Mr Bull was here as an independent contractor. We have continued so much work thereafter which is a credit; G6 was a much later development and Mr bull was long gone. The fact that we have continued forward with 105mm is a testament on its own.

In terms of US warnings, it is a matter of prespective; they continue to supply lethal weapons which have been used in the indiscriminate use by KSA and GCC, they really have no leg to stand on.

Lets see, it is very unlikely G5/G6 will win frankly; as I said I expect Europeans to take this just like with others they keep stealing by virtue of paying more than us. It is fine, this is really not a high ticket item for us to be hung up on as we are making more money in others very high margin items.


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## Gryphon

OTO-Melara Mod 56

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## Zarvan

Any updates on Wheeled Artillery Systems we were testing ???

@Horus @balixd


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## jupiter2007

MGS-25 Aleksandar self-propelled 155 mm artillery system???


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## Zarvan

peruni said:


> Ok, first I understand your point of view. But some things has nothing to do with puppet state or not puppet state.
> 
> Gerald Bull was later in his life US citizen that developed weapons and his howitzer technology is developed in USA and in one stage of his life he transferred that technology developed in USA and in part in Canada to Denel in South Africa. Any design and or technology developed in US and in case of transfer or sale under US law is required to have clearance of State Department office of Munitions Control in order to sale internationally. Gerald got approval so he was able to transfer technology to Denel. But that does not means that Denel can sell US technology again to third party without again seeking approval.
> 
> If you think that you can sale any peace of hardware or technology for military use and not just you but any country(it is not related to South Africa only) in world that is in part or fully developed or produced in US without their approval you are wrong.
> 
> In case of G-6 or any associated weapon with this design you are not just selling your own product and or design but a design developed in USA.
> 
> And you have many weapons system for example developed with technology from Israel and they will ask you also if you have permit to sale their technology to third party if you want to sale their designs in part or full.
> 
> This is in accordance of many domestic and international laws that are connected and regulate arms sale. Nothing to do with puppet or not.
> 
> And that is just one point of view...
> 
> One example of other point of view.
> 
> You have tried to sale in recent years weapons to Syria.
> 
> Than it came this:
> USA: US WARNING TO SOUTH AFRICA OVER WEAPONS SALE TO SYRIA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this was why in some cases you could have made deals:
> "Because of the international stature of South African President Nelson Mandela, the United States has up to now been willing to overlook the close ties he maintains with nations at odds with the United States, including Libya and Cuba."
> 
> But president Mandela is not longer among as living so they don't care any more about media picture related to South Africa and they will not turn a blind eye.
> 
> Did you finish sale of 650 millions USD weapons to Syria?
> 
> Nora is fully developed in Serbia, no other party can stop sales as no third party technology is involved. That is one point of view, and about other we proved that despite heavy sanctions or other meddling of third parties we always honored our deals for example take Iraq.
> 
> I wish you and South Africa all the best...And let the best weapon win




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/924235628954386434
Any idea what it means ?


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/924235628954386434
> Any idea what it means ?



Developed by Serbia, the 50km-range TV / DataLink guided land-to-land Kosava-1 faction has been sold to Pakistan.

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## The Accountant

Signalian said:


> Developed by Serbia, the 50km-range TV / DataLink guided land-to-land Kosava-1 faction has been sold to Pakistan.


Why tv guided for land attack ? Is this for targeting high value target ? Or some sort of long distance anti armour missile ... By the way whats thw cost of the system


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## peruni

Kosava 1 is in its later phase of flight is guided weapon via data-link using TV/IR head for terminal guidance. Operator can chose and lock on any target. Would that be a fortification, command post or command vehicle, tank, ship, section of bridge or something else that 100kg warhead can damage or destroy it on weapons officer to decide based on orders, battlefield condition, possibilities of system he uses, importance and value of target.

It is made to be launched from a same canisters like Alas/Lorana system, and it is primary designed to be used from a new Modular MLRS Morava that Serbia has developed. It is cheaper to operate than Alas and has greater range than basic Alas missile system. It is possible to use this type of weapon system from ground type launcher -MLRS- or from ship(smaller patrol ships, corvettes and frigates) and it is possible to make similar air launched weapon that will have greater range(approximately 75km) from ground launched if launched from airplane at large height above 7000 meters.

MLRS Morava can fire newly developed Grad 122mm rocket with 52km range, Oganj 128mm correctable rocket with 50km range(very precise rocket with a small CEP), all other Grad and Oganj rocket, Plamen 128mm rocket with 12.5km range, 107mm rocket with 11.5km range, Kosava guided rocket and Alas guided missile.

It is one of the best modular rocket system in world accompanied with many different types of rocket and missiles that allows him to resolve any tactical situation by simple changing ammunition.

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## Zarvan

*Yugoimport from Serbia introduces new artillery systems in the Asian market*


Serbian Company Yugoimport introduces new artillery systems Aleksandar 155mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer and Sumadija multi-caliber MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) in the Asian military market at the Defense and Security Thailand 2017 exhibition in Bangkok.






*Scale model of Yugoimport Sumadija multi-caliber MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 in Bangkok.*

The Sumadija is a multi-caliber MLRS which was launched during the defense exhibition Partner in June 2017, the rocket launcher system is mounted on a KAMAZ 8x8 military truck chassis fitted with an armoured cab at the front.

The Sumadija can fire two types of rocket, the Jerina 1 guided rockets and Jerina 2 unguided rockets. The Jerina 1 is a 400mm INS/GPS-guided missile with a range of 285 km with a 200-kg warhead. The Jerina 2 is a 267mm calibre unguided rocket with a range of 75 km and 110 kg warhead.

To fire the Jerina 1 missile, the Sumadiaj can be fitted with two to four tube launchers each containing two missiles. With the use of the Jerina 2 unguided rocket, the vehicle can be fitted with four modules of 3 tube launchers offering the possibility to carried a total of 12 unguided rockets.

*




Scale model of Yugoimport Aleksandar 155 8x8 self-propelled howitzer at Defense and Security Thailand 2017 in Bangkok.*

The Aleksandar 155mm 8x8 self-propelled howitzer was also launched during the Serbian defense exhibition in June 2017. This new artillery system is based on the NORA B-52, a 155 mm/52-caliber self-propelled howitzer weapon system also developed in Serbia by Yugoimport.

The main feature of the new Aleksandar is the use of a fully automatic loading system mounted at the rear of main gun which has a total of 12 rounds ready to the fire.

To increase the speed for the reload of ammunition, 12 additional ammunition are stored in a storage box located at the rear of the crew cab. In a few seconds, the automatic loading system can be reloaded and continue firing operations.

The Aleksandar has a maximum firing range of 32,5 km with standard ammunition and 52 km with the 155 mm HE ERFB RA/BB (VLAP), a new generation of very long range artillery projectiles designed for importantly improving operational range performances of a modern towed and self-propelled 155 mm gun - howitzers with 39, 45 and 52 caliber barrel length.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...ew_artillery_systems_in_the_asian_market.html


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## Muhammad Omar

What Happened to Nora B-52 Trials???


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## Zarvan




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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


>



280km rocket arty should be top of the list

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> 280km rocket arty should be top of the list







We seriously need to consider these from South Korea


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> We seriously need to consider these from South Korea



Its Serbian!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Its Serbian!


I know the one I posted is Serbian I posted the picture of South Korean MRL after that


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I know the one I posted is Serbian I posted the picture of South Korean MRL after that


where?


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## Zarvan

Zarvan said:


> We seriously need to consider these from South Korea


Here Please check this is South Korean system


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## Gryphon

With the induction of 2 more A-100 battalions, the number of A-100 launchers in PA service has reportedly reached 60.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> With the induction of 2 more A-100 battalions, the number of A-100 launchers in PA service has reportedly reached 60.



A-100 System is imported right ?


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## Muhammad Omar

Ulla said:


> A-100 System is imported right ?



Nope A-100 MRLS are being made in Karachi by SUPARCO since 2011

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## Bossman

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope A-100 MRLS are being made in Karachi by SUPARCO since 2011



Just the rockets


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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> A-100 System is imported right ?



Yes. The rockets are,however, produced locally.

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## Muhammad Omar

Bossman said:


> Just the rockets



thanks


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## Bilal Khan 777

Gryphon said:


> With the induction of 2 more A-100 battalions, the number of A-100 launchers in PA service has reportedly reached 60.


And this will continue to counteract Indian Artillery developments and strike formation augmentation.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> And this will continue to counteract Indian Artillery developments and strike formation augmentation.


We need other MRLs also I mean other types. China and Turkey and South Korea are way forward


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## Bilal Khan 777

Zarvan said:


> We need other MRLs also I mean other types. China and Turkey and South Korea are way forward



All dev and proc is related to relative developments in the sub-continent. For now, we are ahead of the curve in all kinds of artillery, but work is needed in towed and SP guns.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> All dev and proc is related to relative developments in the sub-continent. For now, we are ahead of the curve in all kinds of artillery, but work is needed in towed and SP guns.


SP we have enough at least tracked ones yes Truck Mounted ones are needed as for Towed most of them are way way way too old they need to be changed


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> We need other MRLs also I mean other types. China and Turkey and South Korea are way forward


A new “Advanced MLRS” is under development...

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## Bilal Khan 777

Zarvan said:


> SP we have enough at least tracked ones yes Truck Mounted ones are needed as for Towed most of them are way way way too old they need to be changed



My dear our tracked SP guns will all be obsolete. All our potent guns are 155MM/39 calibre, while India is headed towards 155/52 caliber. We will soon be outgunned in tube artillery, but we are head on rocket artillery. This tit of tat arms race is a real drain on our nations blood.

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## Reichsmarschall

Gryphon said:


> With the induction of 2 more A-100 battalions, the number of A-100 launchers in PA service has reportedly reached 60.


how many launchers and rockets in one battalion?


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> My dear our tracked SP guns will all be obsolete. All our potent guns are 155MM/39 calibre, while India is headed towards 155/52 caliber. We will soon be outgunned in tube artillery, but we are head on rocket artillery. This tit of tat arms race is a real drain on our nations blood.


whats the difference b/w 155/52 caliber and 155/39 caliber
whats the caliber of m109 we have


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## Gryphon

Jon-Snow said:


> how many launchers and rockets in one battalion?



6 launchers.
6 x 10=60 rockets loaded.


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## Army research

ziaulislam said:


> whats the difference b/w 155/52 caliber and 155/39 caliber
> whats the caliber of m109 we have


Barrel length , while both have the same rounds, the 52 calibre has a larger barrel which in turn leads do higher muzzle velocity and range

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## Muhammad Omar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A new “Advanced MLRS” is under development...



Any proposed date when it will be launched

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> My dear our tracked SP guns will all be obsolete. All our potent guns are 155MM/39 calibre, while India is headed towards 155/52 caliber. We will soon be outgunned in tube artillery, but we are head on rocket artillery. This tit of tat arms race is a real drain on our nations blood.


Correct. K-9 to be procured by IA is ahead of M-109 of PA.

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## Bilal Khan 777

ziaulislam said:


> whats the difference b/w 155/52 caliber and 155/39 caliber
> whats the caliber of m109 we have



Calibre Lengths. 155MM is NATO Standard, and 39 is caliber lengths. 52 is longer than 39, but there are other performance parameters as well in artillery.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Calibre Lengths. 155MM is NATO Standard, and 39 is caliber lengths. 52 is longer than 39, but there are other performance parameters as well in artillery.


What are your thoughts about procuring new lightweight howitzers in the 105 mm (e.g. MKEK Boran weighs 1,710 kg) or even 155 mm (e.g. NORINCO AH4 - weighs 4,500 kg)

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## monitor



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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What are your thoughts about procuring new lightweight howitzers in the 105 mm (e.g. MKEK Boran weighs 1,710 kg) or even 155 mm (e.g. NORINCO AH4 - weighs 4,500 kg)



unless sitting on a jeep for rapid shoot and scoot, no joy.

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## Blue Marlin

any news on the nora b52 or the t5-52?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> any news on the nora b52 or the t5-52?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Nope. But in Sept. 2017 MKEK said that Pakistan was interested in seeing the firing results of their Yavuz SPH system. So, Pakistan is probably still looking.


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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> Have we still such HIGH (ca.400) numbers of the M30 122mm Gun in service ? (last time I did see this guns was in 2009 in operation against TTP).
> 
> View attachment 19677
> 
> 
> Pakistani army troops arrive with their artillery in the Umar Abad area outside the troubled Buner district on April 29, 2009.
> 
> View attachment 19678



Type 54-1 towed howitzer in 2012






@Signalian @Ulla

When was the last time 130mm Type 59-1 field guns were reported / pictured in GB/AJK? I think PA has replaced them with 122mm D-30 and 105mm M101 in these areas

M101

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> Type 54-1 towed howitzer in 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Signalian @Ulla
> 
> When was the last time 130mm Type 59-1 field guns were reported / pictured in GB/AJK? I think PA has replaced them with 122mm D-30 and 105mm M101 in these areas
> 
> M101



I dont think that they have retired the Type 54-1, there is no reason to do so.

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## Gryphon

Ulla said:


> I dont think that they have retired the Type 54-1, there is no reason to do so.



Yes they will remain in service. Do you have any pic/video of 130mm field gun Type 59-1 on LOC?



Reichsmarschall said:


> what is the status of Panter? how many we produced?



One Panter came for trials, but the type never made it to Pakistan Army service.

Army scrapped the 155mm towed howitzer tender, procured 36 D-30 howitzers at a low price of US$ 150,000 each, KH-179 upgrade to in service M114 howitzers is being considered along with new base bleed ammo production at POF (under license from a European company), so that the 39 caliber howitzers could fire to a range > than 30km and the 52 cals over 40km.

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## Zarvan

Gryphon said:


> Type 54-1 towed howitzer in 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Signalian @Ulla
> 
> When was the last time 130mm Type 59-1 field guns were reported / pictured in GB/AJK? I think PA has replaced them with 122mm D-30 and 105mm M101 in these areas
> 
> M101


The line We would Love to fire was the best one


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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> Yes they will remain in service. Do you have any pic/video of 130mm field gun Type 59-1 on LOC?
> 
> 
> 
> One Panter came for trials, but the type never made it to Pakistan Army service.
> 
> Army scrapped the 155mm towed howitzer tender, procured 36 D-30 howitzers at a low price of US$ 150,000 each, KH-179 upgrade to in service M114 howitzers is being considered along with new base bleed ammo production at POF (under license from a European company), so that the 39 caliber howitzers could fire to a range > than 30km and the 52 cals over 40km.




I have only pics from 1999, which you can find very easy at google.

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## Basel

Ulla said:


> I have only pics from 1999, which you can find very easy at google.



If you have pics from Kargil war then you can share it here.

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## Inception-06

Basel said:


> If you have pics from Kargil war then you can share it here.




welcome bro but that would only a repost, had posted it many time, wait I will search the post.

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## Basel

Ulla said:


> welcome bro but that would only a repost, had posted it many time, wait I will search the post.



Bro some times you have to remind world what you can do if attacked.

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## Inception-06

Basel said:


> Bro some times you have to remind world what you can do if attacked.




@Gryphon Go to page 17 my posts from 2014:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-artillery-upgrade-discussions.133983/page-17#post-6304298

The Pakistan Artillery during Kargil war here in detail:


"Doctors attributed over half of the Indian casualties evacuated to the military
hospital at Leh to indirect fire. NLI artillery frustrated troop movements on the
Srinagar-Leh Highway and destroyed the Indian Army's ammunition dump in the town of
Kargil. The firepower provided by NLI artillery and mortars thwarted initial Indian
Army assaults, but it would not be enough for the undermanned force to hold its
mountain outposts"

Three 120-mm and two 81-mm mortars stopped Indian assaults on the Tiger Hill
complex for several weeks. Well-developed mule tracks and wire communications
connected the positions, which sat in nullahs protected by steep mountainsides.
Coordinated indirect fire confused Indian offensives and inflicted heavy casualties

while India needed a massive artillery barrage, with as many as 1,200 rounds impacting
every 5 minutes to force an NLI retreat.....at Tiger Hill.
http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf
Notice the "empty boxes" of the Artillery rounds were used to build "Bunkers and shelters" for the firing positions.







Related to 130mm Guns in Pakistan Artmy, my posts from 2014.

Yes you are right, but I think both Armys are capable to use older equipment very effective. For example in high altitudes like Siachen and Kargil. The soviet equipment here the 130mm/155mm Type.59IIM/M-46 Guns is easier to maintain and cost effective compared to hightech guns. Highttech requires more education, highly qualified staff, more spare parts, more cost, more time, it's worth all this? So it comes also down to at what a battlefield is located, is it Siachen ? Desert of Thar ? Punjab ? etc.



just a example: Effects on Weapons
"Low barometric pressure affects the tools of war with a severity that equals its
impact on man. Thin air at high altitudes alters the trajectory of all projectiles that move
through the atmosphere. Projectiles are more efficient in low air pressure because of the ........

Cold weather affects weapon performance as well. Cyclic weapons perform
poorly due to lubricant freezing and metal brittleness.50 A weapon fired in subzero
temperatures crystallizes water vapor in the air, creating ice fog that hangs over the
weapon and vapor trails that follow the round and obscures the gunner's vision.51 Frigid
air reduces the range of projectiles and affects the burst characteristics of artillery
projectiles. Deep snow absorbs most of the impact burst of artillery rounds. Mortars are
significantly affected; a cold tube can prevent the propellant from completely burning,
causing the round to lose range.
So I dont know if the 4 generations of Artillery guns would perform better than the Russian cold weather proofed 130mm Guns.....!

The Pakistan Army was even in 1999 very professional to bring fast, effective and deadly fire with the "old" 130mm Guns (not upgraded at this time) and WW2 british towed guns on Indian positions (indian source:in Kargil, 80% of indian casualties were attributed to Pakistani artillery). While the Indian Army did enjoy the luxery of the Bofors guns Electronic crane, autoloader etc......

source:

NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
Monterey, California
THESIS
Approved for public release, distribution is unlimited
HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT
AND THE FUTURE


Link:

http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf


@Gryphon check also that post from me 2014:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-artillery-upgrade-discussions.133983/page-18#post-6649111


Is it a standard in all Pakistani Artillery regiments to have 12.7mm AA Gun mounted on the Truck for self-protection or is this only a decesion made by local commander ? Because sometimes I miss the 12.7mm AA guns as a secondary weapon on Pakistani A.Trucks ! What is the official order and tactic ?


To install the 12.7mm on (Artillery) Trucks is soviet military doctrine/tactic from WW2 (a very effective tactic to protect the Artillery guns from air and ground threat):

some examples:

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## Dazzler

Panters serving the nation..

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## AMG_12

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 460101
> Panters serving the nation..


No, they aren't. They were evaluated, not inducted. Don't believe SIPRI.

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## Dazzler

Game.Invade said:


> No, they aren't. They were evaluated, not inducted. Don't believe SIPRI.


Yes they are, have seen them at an undisclosed location.

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## Mumm-Ra

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 460101
> Panters serving the nation..



weren't they inducted in very limited numbers?

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## Dazzler

Xlvee01 said:


> weren't they inducted in very limited numbers?



Thats true.

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## AMG_12

Dazzler said:


> Yes they are, have seen them at an undisclosed location.


Maybe you've seen the 2 that were here for evaluation. They were here for trials under a tender for fielding 155mm but was later on cancelled due to funding issues. One of them made it to Artillery school Nowshera, the other stayed at Div HQ Panu Aqil.

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## khanasifm



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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 460101
> Panters serving the nation..


Not serving VERY WELL if artillery brats are to be believed 
Lets hope we change that with new procurement (the wheeled SPH is on sleep mode as well)

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## fatman17

Russia: 2S7M Malka 203mm self-propelled guns destroy targets at 50km
Something to consider


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Russia: 2S7M Malka 203mm self-propelled guns destroy targets at 50km
> Something to consider
> View attachment 463223


203 sir??
Not a chance!


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> 203 sir??
> Not a chance!


Why not we have M110s in our inventory


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## HariPrasad

Artillery is very important weapon in indoipak conflict so both the armies are pushihi very hard for it. Both are going to get state of art artilaries in years to come. New ATAGS and pinaka 2 are great weapon systems made by India which shall give India an edge in any future conflict with pakistanP China can not provide such sophesticated weapons to pakistan.


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## Muhammad Omar

What happened to Caesar 155mm Howitzer there was a thread last year that it's coming to Pakistan for trails 






And Nora B-52???


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## HariPrasad

Muhammad Omar said:


> What happened to Caesar 155mm Howitzer there was a thread last year that it's coming to Pakistan for trails
> 
> View attachment 463303
> 
> 
> And Nora B-52???
> View attachment 463304



Is it 155x52?


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## Bossman

HariPrasad said:


> Artillery is very important weapon in indoipak conflict so both the armies are pushihi very hard for it. Both are going to get state of art artilaries in years to come. New ATAGS and pinaka 2 are great weapon systems made by India which shall give India an edge in any future conflict with pakistanP China can not provide such sophesticated weapons to pakistan.


How come when India gets something it becomes the world best super duper earth shaking weapon in the world. Let me tell you a few things. If Pinaka was so good why did India had to buy SMERCH from the Russians. As far as Pakistan is concerned it already something better than both Pinaka and SMERCH l.e A100. The rockets have guidance and extended range and they are locally made. As far ATAG, they are prototypes with imported barrels and other parts and if they were so good why is India buying M77s from the US. One of you fellow country on this forum wrote that M77 were the best thing that ever happened since the invention of gunpowder. It is a sad situation when one of the largest army’s does not have an SP gun in its inventory.

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## HariPrasad

Bossman said:


> Let me tell you a few things. If Pinaka was so good why did India had to buy SMERCH from the Russians.


 Smearch was bought 2 decade ago before we made pinaka mk2.


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## Bossman

HariPrasad said:


> Smearch was bought 2 decade ago before we made pinaka mk2.


But what happened to Pinaka1. Total failure like Tejas and Arjun, right? Sorry Indian BS only impresses the Indians.


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## HariPrasad

Bossman said:


> they were so good why is India buying M77s from the US. One of you fellow country on this forum wrote that M77



Do you even know the difference between the two.? M 777is bought as it weighs just 1/4 th of our ATAGS. We can airlift this gun to any place with chopper. This is for chinese border having mountain terr terrain.


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## Bossman

So why did India buy SMERCH after testing Pinaka ? Also do you know that the ATAGs is being redesigned because the shells are hitting the muzzle break. Also the range of PInaka 2 is only 75 km compared to A100 with the range of 100 km and A100 has inertial guidance


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## HariPrasad

Bossman said:


> But what happened to Pinaka1. Total failure like Tejas and Arjun, right? Sorry Indian BS only impresses the Indians.


Pinaka 1 has proved its worth in Kargil which cleared its way in Kargil. Because it succeed, we did not buy smearch. We are now working on pinaka 3 with 120 km range 250 kg payload with guidance.



Bossman said:


> How come when India gets something it becomes the world best super duper earth shaking weapon in the world



It's not super dupperd because we buy it bur we buy super dupper only. Our gun threw the rounds at world record distance even in trial. So itsi super duper not simply because it is ours.


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## Ultima Thule

Bossman said:


> So why did India buy SMERCH after testing Pinaka ? Also do you know that the ATAGs is being redesigned because the shells are hitting the muzzle break. Also the range of PInaka 2 is only 75 km compared to A100 with the range of 100 km and A100 has inertial guidance


Bro don't engage with a clowns like @HariPrasad , @randomradio and @wiseone2 those guys think that india have or going to be have weapons is/will be out this universe, 100000000000 gen ahead from rest of the world @Bossman


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## HariPrasad

pakistanipower said:


> Bro don't engage with a clowns like @HariPrasad , @randomradio and @wiseone2 those guys think that india have or going to be have weapons is/will be out this universe, 100000000000 gen ahead from rest of the world @Bossman


 Well come.


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## Ultima Thule

HariPrasad said:


> Well come.


You live in this world you stupid sir @HariPrasad not on mars or another galaxy you stupid sir @HariPrasad


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## Muhammad Omar

HariPrasad said:


> Is it 155x52?


If you are asking about caliber then yes 155mm 52 caliber

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bossman said:


> So why did India buy SMERCH after testing Pinaka ? Also do you know that the ATAGs is being redesigned because the shells are hitting the muzzle break. Also the range of PInaka 2 is only 75 km compared to A100 with the range of 100 km and A100 has inertial guidance


A) Pinaka has a range of 35km
B) Pinaka 2 is under development and not in service , it’s range is around 60km.
C)A-100 is much more advanced than anything you have and it’s range is over 120Km.
D)Pakistan has KRL-122 whose range is 45-50km.
E)A-100
F) And a new AMLRS is under development by Pak.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Why not we have M110s in our inventory


Sir the plan is to phase them out as well, go to an all 155mm arsenal! 
The only exception i can see (or HOPE for to be honest) is lighter artillery (towed) that can be transported by our helicopter fleet. All other (SPH and Towed) will be gradually phased out to have an all 155mm inventory.

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Sir the plan is to phase them out as well, go to an all 155mm arsenal!
> The only exception i can see (or HOPE for to be honest) is lighter artillery (towed) that can be transported by our helicopter fleet. All other (SPH and Towed) will be gradually phased out to have an all 155mm inventory.


203mm is very effective from behind operational lines esp at the start of a attack, combined with MLRS.

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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> You live in this world you stupid sir @HariPrasad not on mars or another galaxy you stupid sir @HariPrasad


Please no name calling. Respond with proof or ignore, but dont break forum rules.
A

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 203mm is very effective from behind operational lines esp at the start of a attack, combined with MLRS.


That indeed is true sir but as per authorities or their vision if i may say, different caliber guns, maintaining supply of different ammunition to front line presents a much tougher task. Something that may very well offset the benefits of long range. Plus now with advancement in ammunition, advanced VLAP rounds, Rocket assisted (RA) and Base Bleed (BB) the 155mm more of less meat the range criteria as well and what little it lacks it makes more in terms of standardization to one single caliber! The long range tasks can also be handled by MLRS as you said. It is the ability to be transported by choppers that will come in handy, especially for a country with terrain like ours (Norther areas). That is where a light caliber gun that we can transport by helicopters SHOULD be considered an exception to this standardization as there are limited options in 155mm category that we can airlift if required (Just two in fact, M777 (USA) and AH4 (Norinco-China)). This is where the South Africa G7 (105mm) SHOULD be inducted as an exception. It also nearly matches the characteristics (range and accuracy) of most of 155mm

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## Inception-06



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## Signalian

Ulla said:


> View attachment 464524


@Ulla 

Your posts are gems on PDF

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Your posts are gems on PDF




haha thx Bro, and yours are excellent! I am reading all your posts!



Signalian said:


> @Ulla
> 
> Your posts are gems on PDF



The 122mm rocket launcher is very simple to build, and with the extended range of 40km it's not bad, I don't know why we haven't mass produced it and upgraded it with a better Truck!

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## Chimgathar

Hi, few years back Gen. Raheel Sharif visited South Africa, he was checking an artillery system with keen interest. Any progress on this?


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## Zarvan

Chimgathar said:


> Hi, few years back Gen. Raheel Sharif visited South Africa, he was checking an artillery system with keen interest. Any progress on this?


We have no news. It could be lot of progress behind the curtains or it could be none so we don't know

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> We have no news. It could be lot of progress behind the curtains or it could be none so we don't know


They just should make up their mind and go for G5/G6's and call it end of story.


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## Khagan1923

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/992673684019171329


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## Zarvan

What the hell happened to our wheeled Artillery Trials ???


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> That indeed is true sir but as per authorities or their vision if i may say, different caliber guns, maintaining supply of different ammunition to front line presents a much tougher task. Something that may very well offset the benefits of long range. Plus now with advancement in ammunition, advanced VLAP rounds, Rocket assisted (RA) and Base Bleed (BB) the 155mm more of less meat the range criteria as well and what little it lacks it makes more in terms of standardization to one single caliber! The long range tasks can also be handled by MLRS as you said. It is the ability to be transported by choppers that will come in handy, especially for a country with terrain like ours (Norther areas). That is where a light caliber gun that we can transport by helicopters SHOULD be considered an exception to this standardization as there are limited options in 155mm category that we can airlift if required (Just two in fact, M777 (USA) and AH4 (Norinco-China)). This is where the South Africa G7 (105mm) SHOULD be inducted as an exception. It also nearly matches the characteristics (range and accuracy) of most of 155mm


There has to be a reason for keeping these guns in service. Pakistan, Turkey and SKorea are the only 3 countries left who have the 203mm in service.

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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> There has to be a reason for keeping these guns in service. Pakistan, Turkey and SKorea are the only 3 countries left who have the 203mm in service.



Bunker Demolition

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> There has to be a reason for keeping these guns in service. Pakistan, Turkey and SKorea are the only 3 countries left who have the 203mm in service.


Counter battery.. 1 hit is enough to destroy enemy howitzer., towed or SP.
Nuclear round delivery. Chemical round delivery.

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> Counter battery.. 1 hit is enough to destroy enemy howitzer., towed or SP.
> Nuclear round delivery. Chemical round delivery.


No No! It has no range to do the counter battery job, and has a very low firing rate, it will be knocked out by the weapons that it was trying to destroy. Chemical round probably yes, but no nuke. The main advantage is the weight of the charge it fires, its a howitzer so with the right tragetory its the best bunker buster. Its the job for wich it was invented.
Thanks


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## denel

JPMM said:


> No No! It has no range to do the counter battery job, and has a very low firing rate, it will be knocked out by the weapons that it was trying to destroy. Chemical round probably yes, but no nuke. The main advantage is the weight of the charge it fires, its a howitzer so with the right tragetory its the best bunker buster. Its the job for wich it was invented.
> Thanks


pa... absolutely right.
I was there when we blasted cuban positions in cuito quaneval with G5s.

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## JPMM

In 1965 Pak Heavy Regs had a mix composition of M115 203mm Howitzers and M59 155mm Long Toms Guns, the main M59 job (23513m range) was to keep IA guns away from the M115s, so they could blast the heavy positions.
Thanks

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## denel

JPMM said:


> In 1965 Pak Heavy Regs had a mix composition of M115 203mm Howitzers and M59 155mm Long Toms Guns, the main M59 job (23513m range) was to keep IA guns away from the M115s, so they could blast the heavy positions.
> Thanks


Pa... had many ex-angolan/moz portugese with me in our units.

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## Signalian

JPMM said:


> No No! It has no range to do the counter battery job, and has a very low firing rate, it will be knocked out by the weapons that it was trying to destroy. Chemical round probably yes, but no nuke. The main advantage is the weight of the charge it fires, its a howitzer so with the right tragetory its the best bunker buster. Its the job for wich it was invented.
> Thanks


M-650 projectile extends range.


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## Signalian

denel said:


> pa... absolutely right.
> I was there when we blasted cuban positions in cuito quaneval with G5s.


Very Strange, with such a statement coming out from you. 
The shoot and scoot tactics as well as SP guns needing to constantly keep moving along with armored advance relegates the range factor by a large extent. Sufficiently armored and well protected SP guns need to be taken out by heavy projectiles.


----------



## amardeep mishra

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A) Pinaka has a range of 35km
> B) Pinaka 2 is under development and not in service , it’s range is around 60km.
> C)A-100 is much more advanced than anything you have and it’s range is over 120Km.
> D)Pakistan has KRL-122 whose range is 45-50km.
> E)A-100
> F) And a new AMLRS is under development by Pak.


Hi @DESERT FIGHTER
There are some factual in-accuracies in your points and I believe I must correct them.
1) In response to your point #B, the development run of Pinaka-2 is already over and it has "demonstrated" a guided range of 75km in field trials. Here is a report directly from GoI-
The trials established an accuracy of 60-80m at maximum ranges.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=157988

2) The maximum range of KRL-122 is 45km based on the evidence-
http://gids.com.pk/refurbishment-range-enhancement-of-122mm-MBRL-ammunition

3) There is already a program going on to upgrade Pinaka-2 to range of more than 110kms. This is going to be Pinaka-3.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> Very Strange, with such a statement coming out from you.
> The shoot and scoot tactics as well as SP guns needing to constantly keep moving along with armored advance relegates the range factor by a large extent. Sufficiently armored and well protected SP guns need to be taken out by heavy projectiles.


Indeed, study G5s; it has an apu for movement. cuito ops was a siege. read up on it. The other advantage was G5s were able to hit 40km out making them unreachable by return fire.


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## JPMM

denel said:


> Pa... had many ex-angolan/moz portugese with me in our units.


OK, agora já percebo o pa...


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## denel

JPMM said:


> OK, agora já percebo o pa...


cim pa....  pili-pili frango ..... bacalhau... pao milho... 
best friend is like my brother is portugese.

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## JPMM

We have change a lot from the 70/80s, but the Soul is the same!

Signalian is right about towed artillery, it sucks!
But sometimes is the cheapest solution and most practical (for fast deplyment)

See this vídeo of the Portuguese M119 battery deployd to NRF (Nato Response Force) in 2015 to Lithuania. The time it takes to put them in position and get out of it its to much.




This battery belongs to Portuguese Rapid Reaction Brigade, it trains in Lithuania becouse it will be the first to deploy there.

Can any Pakistan friends tell me what type of Artillery is employed by 37th Infantry Division, its your Rapid Reaction Force.

As you can see "Signalian" it cant be M109 for it, if so would be "Slow Reaction Force"!

Thanks (Obrigado Amigo)

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## Altab Asif

Bossman said:


> But what happened to Pinaka1. Total failure like Tejas and Arjun, right? Sorry Indian BS only impresses the Indians.


I am new to PDF and I am wondering with one fact I observed throughout that this platform is a virtual battlefiled


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## fatman17

Altab Asif said:


> I am new to PDF and I am wondering with one fact I observed throughout that this platform is a virtual battlefiled


If you want it to be one, it will, otherwise there are ways to survive.

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## Altab Asif

fatman17 said:


> If you want it to be one, it will, otherwise there are ways to survive.


Yeah this kind of feeling new to me...I have to be accustomed


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## MimophantSlayer

Bossman said:


> So why did India buy SMERCH after testing Pinaka ? Also do you know that the ATAGs is being redesigned because the shells are hitting the muzzle break. Also the range of PInaka 2 is only 75 km compared to A100 with the range of 100 km and A100 has inertial guidance



India bought Smerch because Pinaka though a great system does not have the range of Smerch.
The Pinaka Mk3 which is under development will far supersede the Smerch with a range of 120km, hence replacing it.

And no, Pinaka has not failed, it is serving with the Indian Army which continues to order more of it.

ATAGS 155/52 has had an accident free run while simultaneously breaking a world record and is racing towards induction.

You must be thinking of Dhanush 155/45 which suffered barrel bursts during trials just like the battle tested M777 did here in India, which we are buying because it is a mature 155/39 system that is lightweight therefore easily transportable and is of a different calibre than both Dhanush and ATAGS.
Since then however, Dhanush has fired some 5000 rounds without fail and enters service before ATAGS a few months from now.


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## Signalian

denel said:


> Indeed, study G5s; it has an apu for movement. cuito ops was a siege. read up on it. The other advantage was G5s were able to hit 40km out making them unreachable by return fire.



M110 was procured a long time back. Indians couldn't match their SP with this gun. The range of 30km was decent enough but as far as I have been told, range in this regard in armored formations is secondary as all the formations are always on the move. Rest I have explained in earlier post as my discussion went with an SP guy and thus the surprise element on your post.

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## Signalian

JPMM said:


> We have change a lot from the 70/80s, but the Soul is the same!
> 
> Signalian is right about towed artillery, it sucks!
> But sometimes is the cheapest solution and most practical (for fast deplyment)
> 
> See this vídeo of the Portuguese M119 battery deployd to NRF (Nato Response Force) in 2015 to Lithuania. The time it takes to put them in position and get out of it its to much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This battery belongs to Portuguese Rapid Reaction Brigade, it trains in Lithuania becouse it will be the first to deploy there.
> 
> Can any Pakistan friends tell me what type of Artillery is employed by 37th Infantry Division, its your Rapid Reaction Force.
> 
> As you can see "Signalian" it cant be M109 for it, if so would be "Slow Reaction Force"!
> 
> Thanks (Obrigado Amigo)



I can't start writing which artillery unit uses which gun but dedicated SP's have been allotted to IABG's and if you are smart you will get an idea , if you still dis agree, then I can only say good luck And will move on to another post. 

37 ID is an infantry formation. It's part of a Strike Corps.
What do you mean by rapid reaction force ?

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## Signalian

Altab Asif said:


> I am new to PDF and I am wondering with one fact I observed throughout that this platform is a virtual battlefiled



Before implementation, every tactic and strategy is conceived and presented on paper.

Whether it's devised in the battlefield is another story.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> M110 was procured a long time back. Indians couldn't match their SP with this gun. The range of 30km was decent enough but as far as I have been told, range in this regard in armored formations is secondary as all the formations are always on the move. Rest I have explained in earlier post as my discussion went with an SP guy and thus the surprise element on your post.


Yes, that is absolutely correct, it is standard protocol to keep shifting to prevent return fire; that is also one reason G5 stands out as it has a small motorised unit with it to move it.
However in this case, it was very different. Cubans were pinned down and dug deep in. They were unable to send air cover either and 122mms they had did not have the range. You must know G5s with some different propellants were able to hit 45km away and more depending on altitude we were in.

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## Mrc

Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....


Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets.... 

They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...

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## The Accountant

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...


Idea is good ,,, however keeping the cost low will be a big challenge as rockets are comparatively way too cheap therefore can be used in quantities ...

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## Zarvan

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...


China has already done something similar


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## Muhammad Omar

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...


Great idea 

Nasr II cruise missile heheh

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## Mrc

The Accountant said:


> Idea is good ,,, however keeping the cost low will be a big challenge as rockets are comparatively way too cheap therefore can be used in quantities ...




That's the main issue ... cost... but also remember cruise missiles can put a 500 pounder in heart of enemy with pin point accuracy... also can over whelm any defences that may develop in future

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Zarvan



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## Arsalan

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...


Rather than a cruise missile, it is more like a guided MBRL system. Though they wont be as cheap as simple MBRL due to guidance kits. Can try to keep them as simple and cheap as possible.

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## Armchair

Arsalan said:


> Rather than a cruise missile, it is more like a guided MBRL system. Though they wont be as cheap as simple MBRL due to guidance kits. Can try to keep them as simple and cheap as possible.



I think Turkey has a guided MBRL. Its an interesting weapon and could be very useful at the Corps level.


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## Arsalan

Armchair said:


> I think Turkey has a guided MBRL. Its an interesting weapon and could be very useful at the Corps level.


Indeed!
Only think i know about which is effective and still relatively cheaper is a good SPH with MRSI feature. A battery can wreck havoc really.

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Not bad - man, if you want to see the ground shake experience it when G6s are on a roll at over 100km/h.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1030759478499495936

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1030767324071002113
@Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan @Zarvan

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## YeBeWarned

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...



That is where Guided MRLS and Glide Bombs comes into play ( Takbir ) ... CM cost will remain costly because of its turbo-shaft Engines and guidance system ..


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## Mrc

Starlord said:


> That is where Guided MRLS and Glide Bombs comes into play ( Takbir ) ... CM cost will remain costly because of its turbo-shaft Engines and guidance system ..




Sure cost would b an issue... u don't replace your usual artillery... u just augment it... give forward troops percission strike capability


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## Fawadqasim1

Guided mlrs all the way


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## YeBeWarned

Mrc said:


> Sure cost would b an issue... u don't replace your usual artillery... u just augment it... give forward troops percission strike capability



that is my point you don't need CM for precision strikes , Glided bombs and Guided Art/MRLS can do the job in much lesser cost


----------



## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045536416527048704

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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> Pakistan shud look into developing short range cruise missiles.. less than 100km range ... and try to keep.them relatively cheap and mass produce....
> 
> 
> Given our familiarity with systems ... its possible a.nd they can be used to augment the arttillary units to take out high value fixed targets....
> 
> They will be far better force multipliers then long range rockets...



Hi,

Those SRCM's are called MLRS---with a smart guidance system---it is the least expensive and most accurate tool in shorter ranges---.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049947795593940992
alternative to Denel G6

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1049947795593940992
> alternative to Denel G6


yes this appears to be a cloned G6.... but ground clearance is not good;

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050968148537692161
New Upgrades for the M109's with range extended to 70Km and with special ammo to 100Km



denel said:


> yes this appears to be a cloned G6.... but ground clearance is not good;



What is the chassis or the platform that G6 based on? there isn't much info available on it. The vehicle has many possibilities that is for sure!

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050968148537692161
> New Upgrades for the M109's with range extended to 70Km and with special ammo to 100Km
> 
> 
> 
> What is the chassis or the platform that G6 based on? there isn't much info available on it. The vehicle has many possibilities that is for sure!


No friend. not possible to get 70km or even 100km. Please recheck. G6 gets up to 70 with vlap's. you are confusing with hypers' which are only being tested not production.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1058263370351165440


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## Chimgathar

Path-Finder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1058263370351165440


Is that an air burst projectile at 00:39 ?


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## Zarvan

*AirShow China 2018: New SH15 155mm 8x8 self-propelled howitzer*


Chinese Defense Company China North Industries Group Corporation Limited (NORINCO) unveils the SH15, a new 155mm wheeled self-propelled howitzer during AirShow China 2018, the International Aerospace and Aviation Exhibition that was held in Zhuhai, China.






*Chinese-made SH15 155mm wheeled 8x8 self-propelled howitzer at AirShow China 2018, Zhuihai. (Picture source Army Recognition)*

The SH15 uses 6x6 wheeled Shaanxi truck chassis with an armored cabin at the front and one 155 mm gun-howitzer mounted at the rear of the truck. These new howitzer is protected against firing of small arms and artillery shell splinters. The crew cab has two large bulletproof windows at the front and there are two doors on each side.

According to NORINCO, this artillery system is based on the AH-2 155 mm/L52 howitzer which is able to fire all standard 155 mm NATO ammunition, as well as Chinese-made ammunition developed by NORINCO.

The 155mm howitzer mounted at the rear of the SH15 uses a semi-automatic loading system. The 155 mm 52 caliber ordnance is fitted with a double baffle muzzle brake and when travelling the ordnance is held in position by a clamp, located to the immediate rear of the cab, which is operated by remote control. When the SH15 is deployed in the firing position two large spades are lowered at the rear to provide a more stable firing platform.

The SH15 has a maximum firing range of 20 km with standard ammunition and 53 km with 53 km with a rocket-assisted artillery projectile. This artillery vehicle can be operated by a crew of five. According to some military sources, the vehicle will have a maximum weight of 22 tons.

The SH15 has a maximum rate of around 4-6 rounds per minute. On each side of the truck chassis, there are storage boxes to carried charges and ammunition. Elevation and traverse is hydraulic with manual controls being provided as a back-up. The SH15 can be used to perform indirect and direct firing.






https://www.armyrecognition.com/air...w_sh15_155mm_8x8_self-propelled_howitzer.html

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## fatman17

40mm remote controlled platform

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 519334
> 
> 40mm remote controlled platform



Good for bunker busting at LOC

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## AMG_12

Horus said:


> Good for bunker busting at LOC


Not a feasible option, limited to no application across the stretch of LOC and prone to detection unlike RRs and ATGMs.


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## Kompromat

For some reason, a buddy deployed on LOC didn't say what you're saying when I shared this with him a few days back.



Game.Invade said:


> Not a feasible option, limited to no application across the stretch of LOC and prone to detection unlike RRs and ATGMs.

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## AMG_12

Horus said:


> For some reason, a buddy deployed on LOC didn't say what you're saying when I shared this with him a few days back.


Well I said what I heard from people deployed on LOC in the past, specifically how impractical deployment of heavy vehicles is on LOC.

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## Kompromat

Game.Invade said:


> Well I said what I heard from people deployed on LOC in the past, specifically how impractical deployment of heavy vehicles is on LOC.




This is not classified as a heavy weapon and it is perfectly suited for taking our dug in positions. The vehicle is mobile and it won't be an easy pick for ATGMs.

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## AMG_12

Horus said:


> This is not classified as a heavy weapon and it is perfectly suited for taking our dug in positions. The vehicle is mobile and it won't be an easy pick for ATGMs.


It's pretty heavy if you consider that most of our posts aren't even accessible by roads and you've to use mules to supply them. It's mobile but for a terrain different than LOC. Yeah, we do have some low laying areas towards the south but those are supplemented by armoured corps in Gujranwala and Sialkot. So again it come to the plains.

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## Army research

Game.Invade said:


> It's pretty heavy if you consider that most of our posts aren't even accessible by roads and you've to use mules to supply them. It's mobile but for a terrain different than LOC. Yeah, we do have some low laying areas towards the south but those are supplemented by armoured corps in Gujranwala and Sialkot. So again it come to the plains.


I think what sir horus is saying ,
The loc is not one line , there's forward posts behind them company HQ( firaeupport base with mortar and company sniper plus HMG and anti bunker anti air ) behind them is the battalion HQ with heavy weapons support , a vehicle like that could easily reach at least the battalion HQ if not the company HQ , thus can be used On the ' LOC ' but not on the actual line that divides 
I hope this answers?

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> This is not classified as a heavy weapon and it is perfectly suited for taking our dug in positions. The vehicle is mobile and it won't be an easy pick for ATGMs.

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## Zarvan

*AirShow China 2018: Poly Technology Type 66 152mm 6x6 mobile gun howitzer*


Chinese Company Poly Technology unveils one new wheeled vehicle mounted Type 66 152mm gun howitzer during AirShow China 2018, Aerospace and Aviation Defense Exhibition that was held in Zhuhai from the 6 to 11 November 2018. The vehicle is based on a 6x6 cross country light truck chassis manufactured by the Chinese Company Xiaolong Automotive Technology Co., Ltd.





*Poly Technology Type 66 152mm mobile gun-howitzer at AirShow China 2018, Zhuhai. (Picture source Army Recognition)*

The Type 66 mobile gun howitzer is fitted with a four doors armor cabin mounted at the front of the chassis which provide a protection for the crew against small arms firing and shell splinters. The rear part of the vehicle is fitted with a Type 66 152mm howitzer, but it can be also fitted with the PL-96 122mm howitzer, a Chinese copy of the Russian towed howitzer *D-30*, in this configuration the vehicle is called *SH2*.

This mobile artillery howitzer has a crew of four and a combat weight of around 18,000 kg. It can fire at a maximum firing range of 22 km. Aiming of the artillery system can be performed in manual and automatic mode. It can come into action in less than 1 minute and come out of action in a similar period. The first shell can be fired in less than 30 seconds.

The vehicle is also is equipped with two hydraulically operated stabilizers mounted at the rear of the chassis which are lowered on the ground in firing position.

The Type 66 is the Chinese version of the Russian 152 mm gun-howitzer D-20. It differs in appearance from the original in few details. It has 152 mm /L26 ordnance and is capable of direct and indirect firing.

The Type 66 can fire different types of ammunition including fragmentation, High-Explosive Fragmentation (HE-FRAG), High Explosive (HE), concrete-busting, and illumination rounds. China also developed number indigenous projectiles for this howitzer, including rocket-assisted projectiles.







https://www.armyrecognition.com/air...gy_type_66_152mm_6x6_mobile_gun_howitzer.html


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## AMG_12

Army research said:


> I think what sir horus is saying ,
> The loc is not one line , there's forward posts behind them company HQ( firaeupport base with mortar and company sniper plus HMG and anti bunker anti air ) behind them is the battalion HQ with heavy weapons support , a vehicle like that could easily reach at least the battalion HQ if not the company HQ , thus can be used On the ' LOC ' but not on the actual line that divides
> I hope this answers?


No, he mentioned dug up positions which are right in front of Indian positions, usually entrenched in the forests. You don't park these vehicles in your Rear HQs. It makes the idea of their deployment on LOC redundant.

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## CriticalThought

Horus said:


> For some reason, a buddy deployed on LOC didn't say what you're saying when I shared this with him a few days back.



Biggest lesson to learn from China: roads are a necessity for modern warfare. We should develop the capability to build roads in the most unforgiving of terrains. I mean, what plan do we have in any future war? Supply through mules????


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## Army research

Game.Invade said:


> No, he mentioned dug up positions which are right in front of Indian positions, usually entrenched in the forests. You don't park these vehicles in your Rear HQs. It makes the idea of their deployment on LOC redundant.


My bad then, but company head quarters are within 12.7 range of enemy , could go there


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## Hassan Guy

Zarvan said:


> *AirShow China 2018: Poly Technology Type 66 152mm 6x6 mobile gun howitzer*
> 
> 
> Chinese Company Poly Technology unveils one new wheeled vehicle mounted Type 66 152mm gun howitzer during AirShow China 2018, Aerospace and Aviation Defense Exhibition that was held in Zhuhai from the 6 to 11 November 2018. The vehicle is based on a 6x6 cross country light truck chassis manufactured by the Chinese Company Xiaolong Automotive Technology Co., Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Poly Technology Type 66 152mm mobile gun-howitzer at AirShow China 2018, Zhuhai. (Picture source Army Recognition)*
> 
> The Type 66 mobile gun howitzer is fitted with a four doors armor cabin mounted at the front of the chassis which provide a protection for the crew against small arms firing and shell splinters. The rear part of the vehicle is fitted with a Type 66 152mm howitzer, but it can be also fitted with the PL-96 122mm howitzer, a Chinese copy of the Russian towed howitzer *D-30*, in this configuration the vehicle is called *SH2*.
> 
> This mobile artillery howitzer has a crew of four and a combat weight of around 18,000 kg. It can fire at a maximum firing range of 22 km. Aiming of the artillery system can be performed in manual and automatic mode. It can come into action in less than 1 minute and come out of action in a similar period. The first shell can be fired in less than 30 seconds.
> 
> The vehicle is also is equipped with two hydraulically operated stabilizers mounted at the rear of the chassis which are lowered on the ground in firing position.
> 
> The Type 66 is the Chinese version of the Russian 152 mm gun-howitzer D-20. It differs in appearance from the original in few details. It has 152 mm /L26 ordnance and is capable of direct and indirect firing.
> 
> The Type 66 can fire different types of ammunition including fragmentation, High-Explosive Fragmentation (HE-FRAG), High Explosive (HE), concrete-busting, and illumination rounds. China also developed number indigenous projectiles for this howitzer, including rocket-assisted projectiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.armyrecognition.com/air...gy_type_66_152mm_6x6_mobile_gun_howitzer.html


bro if HIT can't put something like this together then big time laanat

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## Zarvan




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## Type59

Laser guided weaponry for artillery should be introduced. The guided mortar would be very effective in loc. Very easy to conceal.


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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> Biggest lesson to learn from China: roads are a necessity for modern warfare. We should develop the capability to build roads in the most unforgiving of terrains. I mean, what plan do we have in any future war? Supply through mules????


you know that is what happens in the worst of cases. nothing wrong with mules ... it was done in height of soviet afghan war


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## Psychic

CriticalThought said:


> Biggest lesson to learn from China: roads are a necessity for modern warfare. We should develop the capability to build roads in the most unforgiving of terrains. I mean, what plan do we have in any future war? Supply through mules????


1- Roads cannot be built everywhere e.g on isolated posts up on a mountain.
2- Our forces are deployed to cover large rugged frontiers on both Eastern and Western borders. Not every area is suitable for roads.
3- Armies even employ human porters, mules are a far better option. 
4- Roads cost money.
5- What about friendly forces occupying an enemy area with no roads? 
6- Watch the video and think about this


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## CriticalThought

denel said:


> you know that is what happens in the worst of cases. nothing wrong with mules ... it was done in height of soviet afghan war





Psychic said:


> 1- Roads cannot be built everywhere e.g on isolated posts up on a mountain.
> 2- Our forces are deployed to cover large rugged frontiers on both Eastern and Western borders. Not every area is suitable for roads.
> 3- Armies even employ human porters, mules are a far better option.
> 4- Roads cost money.
> 5- What about friendly forces occupying an enemy area with no roads?
> 6- Watch the video and think about this



China has shown that construction is possible in the worst of terrains. Difficult terrain is no longer an excuse. The point IS that there should be no such thing as 'remote outpost'.

Roads are not just for supplies. They also enable armor and heavy artillery to get closer. The mule capability should be there, but it should not be the first recourse.

For difficult terrain in hostile territory, we need a good number of supply helis.

Finally, the noise made by the robot vehicle in the video will attract fire and give away the position.


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## Cuirassier

Type59 said:


> Laser guided weaponry for artillery should be introduced. The guided mortar would be very effective in loc. Very easy to conceal.


Only if we use 120mm or 160mm mortars as the rest have little impact on reinforced sanghars.


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 519334
> 
> 40mm remote controlled platform





Horus said:


> Good for bunker busting at LOC





Army research said:


> I think what sir horus is saying ,
> The loc is not one line , there's forward posts behind them company HQ( firaeupport base with mortar and company sniper plus HMG and anti bunker anti air ) behind them is the battalion HQ with heavy weapons support , a vehicle like that could easily reach at least the battalion HQ if not the company HQ , thus can be used On the ' LOC ' but not on the actual line that divides
> I hope this answers?





Game.Invade said:


> No, he mentioned dug up positions which are right in front of Indian positions, usually entrenched in the forests. You don't park these vehicles in your Rear HQs. It makes the idea of their deployment on LOC redundant.



Army AD units heavy calibre AAA like 35mm or 40mm already, so the weapon is already available in the area. The mobility that this vehicle offers, tracked or wheels, can help as logistics vehicle for supply and med evac between own lines.



Psychic said:


> 1- Roads cannot be built everywhere e.g on isolated posts up on a mountain.
> 2- Our forces are deployed to cover large rugged frontiers on both Eastern and Western borders. Not every area is suitable for roads.
> 4- Roads cost money.
> 5- What about friendly forces occupying an enemy area with no roads?


Army Engineers can carve the area as they want: Dirt Roads (Paths made for vehicles), trenches, obstacles, bunkers, bridges etc.



> 3- Armies even employ human porters, mules are a far better option.


Mules are the cheapest option but take many days to arrive.



> 6- Watch the video and think about this


Heli drop should be made possible in majority of areas, followed by shorter version of Al-Qaswa M-113 variant for logistics. Last option: Mules where nothing else can negotiate the terrain.



Hassan Guy said:


> bro if HIT can't put something like this together then big time laanat


Need to make 105mm or 155mm towed piece first then SP



Type59 said:


> Laser guided weaponry for artillery should be introduced. The guided mortar would be very effective in loc. Very easy to conceal.


An artillery round was displayed in a presentation back in 2001-2 which locked on the top side of targets like MBT's and other vehicles. i dont remember if it was laser or not.



TF141 said:


> Only if we use 120mm or 160mm mortars as the rest have little impact on reinforced sanghars.


81mm packs a good punch too with excellent rate of fire.

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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> China has shown that construction is possible in the worst of terrains. Difficult terrain is no longer an excuse. The point IS that there should be no such thing as 'remote outpost'.
> 
> Roads are not just for supplies. They also enable armor and heavy artillery to get closer. The mule capability should be there, but it should not be the first recourse.
> 
> For difficult terrain in hostile territory, we need a good number of supply helis.
> 
> Finally, the noise made by the robot vehicle in the video will attract fire and give away the position.


Unfotunately making roads is tantamount to giving the advantage to the otherwise to deny and take it to their own advantage.

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## CriticalThought

denel said:


> Unfotunately making roads is tantamount to giving the advantage to the otherwise to deny and take it to their own advantage.



If you can build, you can destroy as well.


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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> If you can build, you can destroy as well.


best is to not do it. we used the kalahari landscape to our advantage and built vehicles to traverse it vs building roads. That is an advantage you want to have.

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## CriticalThought

denel said:


> best is to not do it. we used the kalahari landscape to our advantage and built vehicles to traverse it vs building roads. That is an advantage you want to have.



I disagree. There are only advantages:

1. Allow use of heavy armor and artillery.
2. Predict enemy movement in case of retreat.
3. Due to predictability, booby trap the path.

The enemy would be extremely foolish to use those roads.


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> I disagree. There are only advantages:
> 
> 1. Allow use of heavy armor and artillery.
> 2. Predict enemy movement in case of retreat.
> 3. Due to predictability, booby trap the path.
> 
> The enemy would be extremely foolish to use those roads.


LOC ?


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> LOC ?



Even the most unforgiving mountains can be tunneled, or shaped. You need to invest, that's all.


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## Psychic

Signalian said:


> Army Engineers can carve the area as they want: Dirt Roads (Paths made for vehicles), trenches, obstacles, bunkers, bridges etc.


Is there really a good reason to carve dirt road to a difficult mountain top post where mules or human porters can do the job e.g posts on LOC.
We used human porters during Kargil war. No roads were carved out, in fact many volunteers were frustrated that they volunteered to fight but were used for portering duties.


Signalian said:


> Mules where nothing else can negotiate the terrain.


Obviously!

And if one is employing human porters, using mules instead will almost always be better.
We employ mules on LOC, Siachen, and even areas of FATA.

Monabao is there for a reason.



CriticalThought said:


> *China* has shown that construction is possible in the worst of terrains. Difficult terrain is no longer an excuse. The point IS that there should be no such thing as 'remote outpost'.


One does not necessarily need to build roads in every nook and cranny of the country.




Chinese soldiers carrying luggage on their backs. Mules could've helped.
And god forbid if the enemy achieves a breakthrough, he will put his trucks on the same road. We already have good mobility in Northern Punjab and along the LOC. We can deploy troops to operational areas in Punjab in a very short time(roads are present). Same goes for LOC where Indian lines of communication are much exposed, and moreover Indians also employ human porters even use Kashmiri villagers as porters.


CriticalThought said:


> the noise made by the robot vehicle in the video will attract fire and give away the position.


I think it's in trials and testing phase atm.
What about noise made by trucks?
What about fuel consumed by trucks? For supplying a mountain post merely a few thousand meters away from supply dump, in difficult terrain? Will you bring an engineer battalion engaged somehwere else during the conflict all the way up to build a 500 meter dirt track because the men cannot haul light luggage on their backs?

Mules are not for supplying troops all the way from Pindi to Bhimber, they are for short range supply.


CriticalThought said:


> Roads are not just for supplies. They also enable armor and heavy artillery to get closer.


The main roads and highways for heavy arty and Armour are already present. 
Isolated small posts on some remote mountains just 500 meters away from main road really need a link road ? So that trucks can move (and also consume fuel ---and so close to the front line)

No one said to move back to Napoleonic era and disband trucks altogether. There is no point in having a road up a small hill maned by a section.

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## CriticalThought

Psychic said:


> Is there really a good reason to carve dirt road to a difficult mountain top post where mules or human porters can do the job e.g posts on LOC.
> We used human porters during Kargil war. No roads were carved out, in fact many volunteers were frustrated that they volunteered to fight but were used for portering duties.
> 
> Obviously!
> 
> And if one is employing human porters, using mules instead will almost always be better.
> We employ mules on LOC, Siachen, and even areas of FATA.
> 
> Monabao is there for a reason.
> 
> 
> One does not necessarily need to build roads in every nook and cranny of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese soldiers carrying luggage on their backs. Mules could've helped.
> And god forbid if the enemy achieves a breakthrough, he will put his trucks on the same road. We already have good mobility in Northern Punjab and along the LOC. We can deploy troops to operational areas in Punjab in a very short time(roads are present). Same goes for LOC where Indian lines of communication are much exposed, and moreover Indians also employ human porters even use Kashmiri villagers as porters.
> 
> I think it's in trials and testing phase atm.
> What about noise made by trucks?
> What about fuel consumed by trucks? For supplying a mountain post merely a few thousand meters away from supply dump, in difficult terrain? Will you bring an engineer battalion engaged somehwere else during the conflict all the way up to build a 500 meter dirt track because the men cannot haul light luggage on their backs?
> 
> Mules are not for supplying troops all the way from Pindi to Bhimber, they are for short range supply.
> 
> The main roads and highways for heavy arty and Armour are already present.
> Isolated small posts on some remote mountains just 500 meters away from main road really need a link road ? So that trucks can move (and also consume fuel ---and so close to the front line)
> 
> No one said to move back to Napoleonic era and disband trucks altogether. There is no point in having a road up a small hill maned by a section.



There is the grand war fighting strategy, and the tiny skirmishes. My suggestion is to ensure road access so Indian forward posts can be easily and accurately targeted through armor and artillery across all of LoC. Remember some time ago, there was talk of Indians attacking through armor hidden in bunkers. It was even mentioned in Mahaaz. Also, supplies should be brought by roads in general.

Yes, in isolated instances, such as a post that is 500m away, a road doesn't make sense. Or a post on a glacier that has nothing but ice all the way. But these are very specialized cases.

The video you posted is of a mine clearing operation. Obviously they are not going to create a road for that.

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## Psychic

CriticalThought said:


> , there was talk of Indians attacking through armor hidden in bunkers.


That is true or maybe its a rumor. They did something like that in 48 war in Zojilla pass, however that was against mujahideen lacking any anti-tank weaponry. 

There are much cheaper alternatives for that. We have been fielding long range AAA 14.5mm( very long range) in bunkers to hit IA posts along with 106mm recoilless and even ATGMs(3KM+) which are doing the same job as tanks and are much cheaper alternatives. Tank will fire the same range as ATGM, and become exposed when going in and out of bunker along a dirt track on rough terrain at slow speed. 

Maybe in FATA, tanks are OK for such use where enemy doesn't have long range anti tank capability. Or in an offensive posture against TTP like groups in terrain similar to FATA or LOC. In that case, you are already in enemy territory.

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## CriticalThought

Psychic said:


> That is true or maybe its a rumor. They did something like that in 48 war in Zojilla pass, however that was against mujahideen lacking any anti-tank weaponry.
> 
> There are much cheaper alternatives for that. We have been fielding long range AAA 14.5mm( very long range) in bunkers to hit IA posts along with 106mm recoilless and even ATGMs(3KM+) which are doing the same job as tanks and are much cheaper alternatives. Tank will fire the same range as ATGM, and become exposed when going in and out of bunker along a dirt track on rough terrain at slow speed.
> 
> Maybe in FATA, tanks are OK for such use where enemy doesn't have long range anti tank capability. Or in an offensive posture against TTP like groups in terrain similar to FATA or LOC. In that case, you are already in enemy territory.



That's interesting, ATGMs having the same effect as tanks! I thought tanks impart a higher kinematic energy due to explosive charge which cannot be equaled by a mere ATGM? Also, the type of warheads on the shells is also different. I am guessing the equivalence is against a specific type if target such as reinforced bunkers? Right?

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## Army research

CriticalThought said:


> That's interesting, ATGMs having the same effect as tanks! I thought tanks impart a higher kinematic energy due to explosive charge which cannot be equaled by a mere ATGM? Also, the type of warheads on the shells is also different. I am guessing the equivalence is against a specific type if target such as reinforced bunkers? Right?


A machine gun nest or HMG/ AA and reccoiless/ATGM nest are an enemies main defensive positions, however whether you shoot a 125 mm HE round or a ATGM missile, both can accomplish the task, with the former just doing it with a louder noise and exposing it self

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## Psychic

CriticalThought said:


> That's interesting, ATGMs having the same effect as tanks! I thought tanks impart a higher kinematic energy due to explosive charge which cannot be equaled by a mere ATGM? Also, the type of warheads on the shells is also different. I am guessing the equivalence is against a specific type if target such as reinforced bunkers? Right?


ATGMs are also employed in hitting bunkers. Just like 106mm RR. Similarly 14.5mm AA is also very good.
Reinforced concrete bunkers I am not sure tho.

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## Cuirassier

Psychic said:


> ATGMs are also employed in hitting bunkers. Just like 106mm RR. Similarly 14.5mm AA is also very good.
> Reinforced concrete bunkers I am not sure tho.


We also employ SPG-9 73mm recoiless rifles and in some instances I've seen 37mm single barreled AA guns for counterfire to Indian 23mm. Retaliation is always according to calibre used by the adversary.

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## denel

CriticalThought said:


> I disagree. There are only advantages:
> 
> 1. Allow use of heavy armor and artillery.
> 2. Predict enemy movement in case of retreat.
> 3. Due to predictability, booby trap the path.
> 
> The enemy would be extremely foolish to use those roads.


no friend, heavy armor and artillery are prone to becoming completely stuck. no good.
Let us define what exact terrain we are after? mountainous? then we can discuss more on . please define then we can elaborate.


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Unfotunately making roads is tantamount to giving the advantage to the otherwise to deny and take it to their own advantage.





denel said:


> best is to not do it. we used the kalahari landscape to our advantage and built vehicles to traverse it vs building roads. That is an advantage you want to have.



Hi,

Something so simple in thought---yet many cannot grasp the issue---.


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## Zarvan

*Mekatronik 81mm mortar on its trailer (Picture source: Army Recognition)*
*




Mekatronik 81mm mortar, a weapon with autoloader much appreciated by its users (Picture source: Army Recognition)*


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## Signalian

Psychic said:


> Is there really a good reason to carve dirt road to a difficult mountain top post where mules or human porters can do the job e.g posts on LOC.
> We used human porters during Kargil war. No roads were carved out, in fact many volunteers were frustrated that they volunteered to fight but were used for portering duties.


Yes, Med evac, which is priority and heavy logistics which stand out of human/animal loading capability.


> Obviously!
> 
> And if one is employing human porters, using mules instead will almost always be better.
> We employ mules on LOC, Siachen, and even areas of FATA.
> 
> Monabao is there for a reason.


Heli is always preferred but ranges around LOC restricts its flight. Most of the area around AK and LOC can be easily covered by helis. Mules are not better in any sense, they are cheap to operate but the downsides are there, they are slow which cause delays, round trips get extended. Motorised transport is secondary choice, ATV's are an option, then 4x4 and after that 6x6 or 8x8 trucks.



Psychic said:


> One does not necessarily need to build roads in every nook and cranny of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese soldiers carrying luggage on their backs. Mules could've helped.


Maybe company level supplies to posts scattered around. If its a Battalion sized, Brigade sized or Div sized Ops and you are using human or mules for supplies, then dont even start the Ops.

You are quoting wrong example of Kargil. The Kargil Ops was section/platoon level strengths, occupying strategic posts like peaks. It wasnt a major offensive or defensive Ops. Next Ops will never be like Kargil Ops. Fast transports for logistics, assisting Battalion/Brigade level Ops, will be required.



Psychic said:


> No one said to move back to Napoleonic era and disband trucks altogether. There is no point in having a road up a small hill maned by a section.


That small hill (just like Leepa valley Ops) maybe a start-off point for a future major Ops as it maybe strategically located. 
That small hill may also be utilized as a transit check point through which logistics would be passing in case an Ops is going to be conducted in the area. 
That small hill maybe becomes a defensive point for friendly retreating forces during Ops.
All these requires roads. 
I am sorry to say but with your thinking pattern, no Ops will be able to take place due to logistics issue.

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## Psychic

Signalian said:


> *I am sorry to say but with your thinking pattern, no Ops will be able to take place due to logistics issue*.



I *never* talked about *supplying entire divisions with mules*, or launching *major offensives* supplied by* mule trains.*



I already gave the example of Kargil *which was a real conflict*. [I never compared it to something like Chamb offensive yet you declared it a wrong example]. When I said that mules are useful in certain situations I was not talking about moving troops from Kharian to Bhimber on mules* and I am sorry to say that you failed to get the gist of my posts. 
*
And you won't be building roads to each and every isolated section level post in a fluid battlefield deep inside enemy territory in the mountains when majority of engineers will be engaged in the plains and deserts building roads and river crossings. Mountain warfare rules are entirely different my friend.


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## Signalian

Psychic said:


> I *never* talked about *supplying entire divisions with mules*, or launching *major offensives* supplied by* mule trains.*
> 
> 
> 
> I already gave the example of Kargil *which was a real conflict*. [I never compared it to something like Chamb offensive yet you declared it a wrong example]. When I said that mules are useful in certain situations I was not talking about moving troops from Kharian to Bhimber on mules* and I am sorry to say that you failed to get the gist of my posts.
> *
> And you won't be building roads to each and every isolated section level post in a fluid battlefield deep inside enemy territory in the mountains when majority of engineers will be engaged in the plains and deserts building roads and river crossings. Mountain warfare rules are entirely different my friend.


On the contrary: Leepa Valley. Ingress and Retreat route of an Ops whether through a post or a whole front covered by isolated posts. Ring any bells why roads is important?


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## LKJ86



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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 522339


any more details ....


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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> any more details ....

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## Akasa

HRK said:


> any more details ....



SH-15 howitzer (export version of PCL181) being trialled by the Pakistani Army.

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## Cuirassier

We're looking for wheeled SPH and I hope a deal is struck.


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## Dazzler

Akasa said:


> SH-15 howitzer (export version of PCL181) being trialled by the Pakistani Army.



It is competing with Denel T-5 and Nora B-52. Both excellent options and have shown quite a performance. Let's see what happens.

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## HRK

Akasa said:


> SH-15 howitzer (export version of PCL181) being trialled by the Pakistani Army.


it was trailed in Pakistan or in China .... ??


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## Akasa

HRK said:


> it was trailed in Pakistan or in China .... ??



Uncertain, but more likely in Pakistan since the system would need to face the climate and terrain of the region during its trials. 

There is also a photo of the SH15 being prepared for the IDEAS 2018 exhibition in Pakistan.

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## GriffinsRule

Whats Bangladesh's experience with Nore B-52? Anyone got insights?


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## Dreamer.

Dazzler said:


> It is competing with Denel T-5 and Nora B-52. Both excellent options and have shown quite a performance. Let's see what happens.


What is difference between Denel T-5 and G-6? Both are wheeled SPH, which one is better?


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## LKJ86

SH15

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## Muhammad Omar

Every year we see new Howitzer at IDEAS 

SH-1 at IDEAS 2014 





Nora B-52 at IDEAS 2016 






Now SH-15 at IDEAS 2018

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## Hassan Guy

Muhammad Omar said:


> Every year we see new Howitzer at IDEAS
> 
> SH-1 at IDEAS 2014
> View attachment 522773
> 
> 
> Nora B-52 at IDEAS 2016
> 
> View attachment 522774
> 
> 
> Now SH-15 at IDEAS 2018
> View attachment 522775
> View attachment 522776


B-52 will be back at IDEAS 2020, but the SH-1 will return at IDEAS 2022


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## LKJ86

Hassan Guy said:


> B-52 will be back at IDEAS 2020, but the SH-1 will return at IDEAS 2022


SH15 is developed on the proposal of PA.

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## Zulfiqar

R&D work is also being done for an MLRS with range greater than A-100.

Don't have exact details but we might see a prototype in next 1-2 years.

Success will be with us.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## Path-Finder

Muhammad Omar said:


> Every year we see new Howitzer at IDEAS
> 
> SH-1 at IDEAS 2014
> View attachment 522773
> 
> 
> Nora B-52 at IDEAS 2016
> 
> View attachment 522774
> 
> 
> Now SH-15 at IDEAS 2018
> View attachment 522775
> View attachment 522776


Denel T5 not Nora!


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## Sulman Badshah

Maj Gen Ehsan Mehmood saluting Nation Hero Havaldar Lalak Jan Shaheed

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zulfiqar said:


> R&D work is also being done for an MLRS with range greater than A-100.
> 
> Don't have exact details but we might see a prototype in next 1-2 years.
> 
> Success will be with us.


Probably earlier.

Advanced MLRS was mentioned in MODP report.

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## Zulfiqar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Probably earlier.
> 
> Advanced MLRS was mentioned in MODP report.



Yes, I hope so.

In previous post, I meant a weapon that can be shown to media under another kamiyab tujraba head. Other than that it is already here.

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## Type59

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Probably earlier.
> 
> Advanced MLRS was mentioned in MODP report.



Nasr rocket could be packed with sensor fused cluster munitions. Rocket is large enough to carry various payloads.


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## Cuirassier

How many wheeled SPHs are we looking for? 90?


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## Sine Nomine

Dazzler said:


> It is competing with Denel T-5 and Nora B-52. Both excellent options and have shown quite a performance. Let's see what happens.


No G6-52.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> It is competing with Denel T-5 and Nora B-52. Both excellent options and have shown quite a performance. Let's see what happens.


T-5s are out. Nora B-52 did arrived again after some modification (i suppose) and was evaluated. Not 100% sure if it is still here but i think it is and i also think it will be going through winter trials again. SH15 is here for sure and will be going through winter trials. A decision to be made once that is complete and i am expecting a development March/April next year.



TF141 said:


> How many wheeled SPHs are we looking for? 90?


60+60 = 120 initially 
May go up to 150.

personally i think it may well go even beyond that. 



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> No G6-52.


No sir, T5-52

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> T-5s are out. Nora B-52 did arrived again after some modification (i suppose) and was evaluated. Not 100% sure if it is still here but i think it is and i also think it will be going through winter trials again. SH15 is here for sure and will be going through winter trials. A decision to be made once that is complete and i am expecting a development March/April next year.
> 
> 
> 60+60 = 120 initially
> May go up to 150.
> 
> personally i think it may well go even beyond that.
> 
> 
> No sir, T5-52


What Pakistani Army told Serbians and South Africans when they brought their Artillery Guns for trials was that total number we want is 500.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> T-5s are out. Nora B-52 did arrived again after some modification (i suppose) and was evaluated. Not 100% sure if it is still here but i think it is and i also think it will be going through winter trials again. SH15 is here for sure and will be going through winter trials. A decision to be made once that is complete and i am expecting a development March/April next year.
> 
> 
> 60+60 = 120 initially
> May go up to 150.
> 
> personally i think it may well go even beyond that.
> 
> 
> No sir, T5-52



The number is ~400 as per Serbian news paper report!

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## AMG_12

Path-Finder said:


> The number is ~400 as per Serbian news paper report!


400 is a big number, It's definitely gonna come with ToT. Recently, I have witnessed most of our contracts/procurement are ToT based and also it has kick started standardisation of equipment. In the past, the process was hampered by western aid.


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## Path-Finder

Game.Invade said:


> 400 is a big number, It's definitely gonna come with ToT. Recently, I have witnessed most of our contracts/procurement are ToT based and also it has kick started standardisation of equipment. In the past, the process was hampered by western aid.



My mistake its ~500 total with ~400 to be assembled in Pakistan I stand corrected!



> Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) met with Yugoimport-SDPR in February at IDEX in the United Arab Emirates. Serbian news outlets, such as Politika, reported that Pakistan told Yugoimport-SDPR that it would seek 500 SPH, of which 400 would need to be built in Pakistan. The Pakistan Army’s Director General of Artillery also visited Serbia in January.



https://quwa.org/2017/06/28/serbias-yugoimport-sdpr-showcases-new-artillery-solutions-partner-2017/

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## HRK

Game.Invade said:


> I have witnessed most of our contracts/procurement are ToT based and also it has kick started standardisation of equipment.


as per policy any import contract above $ 15 million should have offset clause

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## Path-Finder

what are 120mm mortars in Pakistani service? 120mm mortar seem to be hot product at the moment.

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## fatman17

Path-Finder said:


> what are 120mm mortars in Pakistani service? 120mm mortar seem to be hot product at the moment.


Pakistan needs the 120mm SP mortar in bad way.

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> what are 120mm mortars in Pakistani service? 120mm mortar seem to be hot product at the moment.



Brandt MO-120-AM-50 M67, manufactured by PMTF Karachi.



fatman17 said:


> Pakistan needs the 120mm SP mortar in bad way.



PA acquired M106A2 mortar carriers from Jordan 3 years back, I was hoping the 107mm mortar will be replaced with 81 or 120mm, but the recent MODP report revealed the first batch of 39 has been converted for troop carrier role which is so disappointing.

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## fatman17

Chinese SM4 120MM SP Mortar

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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Chinese SM4 120MM SP Mortar
> View attachment 533147


Looks ugly and it would better if it had RWS for machine gun.


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## Army research

monitor said:


> Looks ugly and it would better if it had RWS for machine gun.


It's a mortar carrier, not a close range fighting machine


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## Sulman Badshah

Italian Surplus M109 L howitzers

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## Kompromat

According to a source these Italian Howitzers are as new and have rarely been put to use. Upgrade their subsystems and they're at par with our A5s.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> According to a source these Italian Howitzers are as new and have rarely been put to use. Upgrade their subsystems and they're at par with our A5s.


Italy had 256 of them locally produced most are in storage if we can get all of them it would be great

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## khanasifm

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3729.html

The main change on the M109L is the replacement of the existing 23 calibre barrel with a 39 calibre barrel. Externally this is configured to the M109 mounting, but internally it is ballistically similar to the FH-70 configuration and can thus fire existing M107 ammunition or FH-70 ammunition. Firing L15 HE projectiles the M109L has a maximum range of 24,000 or 30,000 m with assisted ammunition.

In addition to the installation of a new ordnance, the following have been modified:

(1) recoil buffers and run-out buffer

(2) cradle to fit the new ordnance

(3) replacement of the equilibrator and elevating cylinder

(4) barrel clamp to fit new barrel.

The new 155 mm 39 calibre barrel is fitted with a revised muzzle brake, with the maximum recoil increase on the M109L being only 100 mm. The existing breech and breech ring of the original M109 have been retained.

The elevating mass, as modified, is interchangeable with that on the basic M109, furthermore the mechanical interface between the elevating mass and saddle, as well as the mountings of the optical device, do not require any modification.

To reduce operator fatigue and increase rate of fire, a rammer can also be fitted to the M109L system.


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## TheDarkKnight

Is anyone aware of the status of panter from Turkey? Wasnt there some sort of local assembly or production at HIT?

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## princefaisal

Zarvan said:


> Italy had 256 of them locally produced most are in storage if we can get all of them it would be great


Upgrade from whom? Can Italy upgrade them? Whether US permission will be required for its upgradation?


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## mingle

princefaisal said:


> Upgrade from whom? Can Italy upgrade them? Whether US permission will be required for its upgradation?


It's gonna leonardo upgrade no problem.


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## Great Janjua

Update???Also what happened too the MKEK Panter howitzer


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## Path-Finder

TheDarkKnight said:


> Is anyone aware of the status of panter from Turkey? Wasnt there some sort of local assembly or production at HIT?





Great Janjua said:


> Update???Also what happened too the MKEK Panter howitzer



it doesn't fit the criteria, its too heavy.


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## Philip the Arab

What about making Pakistan's M101s and Oto Melara Mod 56 or truck mounted or vehicle mounted? KADDB a Jordanian company manufactures these which use "Shoot and Scoot" tactics.


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## Amaa'n

Arsalan said:


> T-5s are out. Nora B-52 did arrived again after some modification (i suppose) and was evaluated. Not 100% sure if it is still here but i think it is and i also think it will be going through winter trials again. SH15 is here for sure and will be going through winter trials. A decision to be made once that is complete and i am expecting a development March/April next year.
> 
> 
> 60+60 = 120 initially
> May go up to 150.
> 
> personally i think it may well go even beyond that.
> 
> 
> No sir, T5-52


any word on the Nora b-52? am kinda missing this badboy, been a while since i last saw it.....

we should do the trails at LOC

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## HRK

balixd said:


> any word on the Nora b-52? am kinda missing this badboy, been a while since i last saw it.....
> 
> we should do the trails at LOC



SH-15 ..??


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## Amaa'n

HRK said:


> SH-15 ..??


no, it was Nora -52...i couldn't take the pic back then, i was on bike, but i knew how it looked. @Arsalan helped me ID the machine....it was Nora - 52 that I had seen.....this was back in 2015? the first time when they came to Pakistan.....

if it's back again...we should put it to use for proper field trail

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## Signalian

balixd said:


> no, it was Nora -52...i couldn't take the pic back then, i was on bike, but i knew how it looked. @Arsalan helped me ID the machine....it was Nora - 52 that I had seen.....this was back in 2015? the first time when they came to Pakistan.....
> 
> if it's back again...we should put it to use for proper field trail


Whats the advantage of B-52 over others?


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108313484285087745


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## Arsalan

Signalian said:


> Whats the advantage of B-52 over others?


What others? At that time SH-15 was not in the picture and it was mainly between Nora B-52, SH1 and as per some reports the South African T5-52. Now the new Chinese SH-15 may have changed things but previously B-52 was top runner in SPH (wheeled). Some modifications were requested and the gun did came back after those modifications. 



balixd said:


> any word on the Nora b-52? am kinda missing this badboy, been a while since i last saw it.....
> 
> we should do the trails at LOC


Nothing on my side


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## fatman17

S15 with modifications has the inside track

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## Evora



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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108313484285087745


What does Rheinmetall Partnership with Denel mean? @denel will rheinmetall be a hurdle?


----------



## Selous

Path-Finder said:


> What does Rheinmetall Partnership with Denel mean? @denel will rheinmetall be a hurdle?


I believe the partnership is actually quite old. Since 2008 if I am not mistaken. Rheinmetall purchased a controlling share in Denel's munition interests. Denel is facing some severe internal troubles at the moment. They are in need of a bailout as well it seems.

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## denel

Selous said:


> I believe the partnership is actually quite old. Since 2008 if I am not mistaken. Rheinmetall purchased a controlling share in Denel's munition interests. Denel is facing some severe internal troubles at the moment. They are in need of a bailout as well it seems.


yes they have severe financial crunch. In comparison Paramount is going places leaps and bound. I am expecting either a take over internally from Paramount - you must note, many technologies and staff in Paramount are from various branches of Armscor.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

Denel looking for T5-52 howitzer sale in Asia

Grant Turnbull, Cape Town - Jane's Defence Weekly

22 March 2019

Denel Land Systems is in negotiations with an Asian country to purchase the company’s latest T5-52 wheeled self-propelled artillery system, a company source told Jane’s .

A T5-52 is seen in action at Overberg test range. (Denel Land Systems)

The source said negotiations with the undisclosed country were ongoing and that other countries had also shown interest. Exact quantities or a potential contract value were not disclosed. The source also noted that trials had recently taken place in Pakistan.

The 155 mm/52 calibre howitzer was demonstrated to international delegates, including Jane’s , at Denel’s Overberg Test Range on 19–20 March.

The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) is still undecided whether it will order a substantial number of T5-52s or upgrade its legacy G6 self-propelled howitzers.

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> Land Platforms
> 
> Denel looking for T5-52 howitzer sale in Asia
> 
> Grant Turnbull, Cape Town - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 22 March 2019
> 
> Denel Land Systems is in negotiations with an Asian country to purchase the company’s latest T5-52 wheeled self-propelled artillery system, a company source told Jane’s .
> 
> A T5-52 is seen in action at Overberg test range. (Denel Land Systems)
> 
> The source said negotiations with the undisclosed country were ongoing and that other countries had also shown interest. Exact quantities or a potential contract value were not disclosed. The source also noted that trials had recently taken place in Pakistan.
> 
> The 155 mm/52 calibre howitzer was demonstrated to international delegates, including Jane’s , at Denel’s Overberg Test Range on 19–20 March.
> 
> The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) is still undecided whether it will order a substantial number of T5-52s or upgrade its legacy G6 self-propelled howitzers.
> 
> View attachment 549183


I am very sure Pak is the buyer.



Path-Finder said:


> What does Rheinmetall Partnership with Denel mean? @denel will rheinmetall be a hurdle?


No. this is no concern just a dotted line post 1996 JVs.

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## Cookie Monster

denel said:


> I am very sure Pak is the buyer.
> 
> 
> No. this is no concern just a dotted line post 1996 JVs.


Wasn't there some news earlier about Pak purchasing some Chinese truck mounted artillery...SH15 I think it was called. Can anyone plz shine some light on this?

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## Signalian

TheDarkKnight said:


> Is anyone aware of the status of panter from Turkey? Wasnt there some sort of local assembly or production at HIT?





Great Janjua said:


> Update???Also what happened too the MKEK Panter howitzer


It was not produced. The ones acquired were trialed and thats it.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1124658742216151043


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## fatman17

205mm Howitzer

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## Ghost 125

fatman17 said:


> 205mm Howitzer
> View attachment 560538


203*

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## fatman17

Ghost 125 said:


> 203*


My bad [emoji5]


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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> 205mm Howitzer
> View attachment 560538


Are these still being made..????


----------



## fatman17

ZedZeeshan said:


> Are these still being made..????


Probably not


----------



## Signalian

ZedZeeshan said:


> Are these still being made..????


That is a WW2 weapon. Pakistan Military is moving towards medium howitzers, not heavy.


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## Sine Nomine

@fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha 
Why we haven't tried G-6?


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## fatman17

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha
> Why we haven't tried G-6?


Good Q


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## Amaa'n

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha
> Why we haven't tried G-6?


not sure why, from what I understand we were looking for SPH- Truck mounted artillery system that can be deployed along LoC - (witnessed one being moved at some time in the history)......T-52 had an advantage as it has independent drive system on each wheel, outriggers are present for added stability of the platform...and to top it all, it was being offered cheaper than the G-6....


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## fatman17

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> not sure why, from what I understand we were looking for SPH- Truck mounted artillery system that can be deployed along LoC - (witnessed one being moved at some time in the history)......T-52 had an advantage as it has independent drive system on each wheel, outriggers are present for added stability of the platform...and to top it all, it was being offered cheaper than the G-6....


Pakistan seems to have a paranoia with wheeled SP guns, they love the M109s, and will search all over for EDA.

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## Sine Nomine

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> not sure why, from what I understand we were looking for SPH- Truck mounted artillery system that can be deployed along LoC - (witnessed one being moved at some time in the history)......T-52 had an advantage as it has independent drive system on each wheel, outriggers are present for added stability of the platform...and to top it all, it was being offered cheaper than the G-6....


When it comes to Mobility G-6 is no different then the truck mounted arty.
It seems more at many places that we are not clear about our goal.


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## Army research

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> When it comes to Mobility G-6 is no different then the truck mounted arty.
> It seems more at many places that we are not clear about our goal.


Not really , a tracked vehicle will always be less mobile on roads than a road tire vehicle, 
Kashmir valleys have perfectly covered from enemy fire roads due to mountains which then lead to ideal firing spots and then you scoot back into cover , these roads are not motorway quality and to use a tracked vehicle you would have to use rubber tracks , 
Wheeled vehicle while not having the armour of the tracked one would be lighter and faster
As for supporting our armoured regiments with tracked one's , we already have plenty of M109 working perfectly fine

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## Sine Nomine

Army research said:


> Not really , a tracked vehicle will always be less mobile on roads than a road tire vehicle,
> Kashmir valleys have perfectly covered from enemy fire roads due to mountains which then lead to ideal firing spots and then you scoot back into cover , these roads are not motorway quality and to use a tracked vehicle you would have to use rubber tracks ,
> Wheeled vehicle while not having the armour of the tracked one would be lighter and faster
> As for supporting our armoured regiments with tracked one's , we already have plenty of M109 working perfectly fine


Sir do take look at G6 Rhino,it's a wheeled system.


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## Army research

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Sir do take look at G6 Rhino,it's a wheeled system.


Ik, that's why I mentioned the weight and speed parts in my post


----------



## Ghost 125

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha
> Why we haven't tried G-6?


heavy price tag... you can get a battery of other guns in price of one G 6


----------



## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> It was not produced. The ones acquired were trialed and thats it.


Are you sure sir? Several sources on this forum and outside it suggested that Pakistan bought 12 for evaluation and 60 were produced at HIT. There was at least one news article posted on this very forum that claimed that one regiment of 40 PANTER howitzers has been raised. So it might be in service? 
That being said I spend a lot of time around our army gunners and am yet to see one.


----------



## Ghost 125

iLION12345_1 said:


> Are you sure sir? Several sources on this forum and outside it suggested that Pakistan bought 12 for evaluation and 60 were produced at HIT. There was at least one news article posted on this very forum that claimed that one regiment of 40 PANTER howitzers has been raised. So it might be in service?
> That being said I spend a lot of time around our army gunners and am yet to see one.


no panters in Pak Army, never inducted, chapter closed plus a regiment alays have 18 guns not 40


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## iLION12345_1

Ghost 125 said:


> no panters in Pak Army, never inducted, chapter closed plus a regiment alays have 18 guns not 40


My statement was a little confusing with words I admit, I know there’s 18 guns. I meant that we had 40 and one regiment had been raised. Not that it had 40 guns (again, my fault). I was just making sure that the news articles and references were false. If anything I can confirm it personally tomorrow from actual gunners, thanks for confirming though

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## Signalian

Bossman said:


> But what happened to Pinaka1. Total failure like Tejas and Arjun, right? Sorry Indian BS only impresses the Indians.


did you know that Indians actually helped in raising an Artillery Regiment for Pakistan Army ?
40 Field Regiment was booty from Chamb in 1965 - where the Indians had left their 25 Pounders intact before fleeing the place.



MystryMan said:


> M270 were said to be part of EDA stocks offered to PA from Afghan theatre. I think it didn't materialized. May be someone knowledgeable can shed some light.


For M270, a division as such has 9 Launchers - with each firing 12 rockets (each with 644 bomblets) per minute. The delivery of bomblets per minute at the target comes to 9 x 12 x 644 or 69552 bomblets which amounts to almost 1 bomblet per m2 over an area of 300x300 metres (as occupied by a division).



Path-Finder said:


> No they testd SP guns both wheeled and tracked. There was only one SP that was tracked K9 and two wheeled Denel & Nexter. Along with bofors as well and some dordo gun. They selected K9 and M777 will be domestically made.
> 
> We need to look at M777 equivelant as some stage.


In case of bofors, it uses propellant charge of approximately 13 Kg, it will need a bigger charge to achieve longer range, like weight of 19 Kg to achieve a range of 40 Km

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## Zarvan

New version of Aleksandar 155mm self-propelled howitzer based on a MAN 8x8 truck chassis unveiled at Partner 2019, defense exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 25, 2019.





New Yugoimport modular MLRS Multiple Launch Rocket System unveiled at Partner 2019, the International Fair of Armament and Defense Equipment Exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. June 25, 2019.

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## Reichsmarschall

any update on denel's t5-52 procurement?


----------



## fatman17

Land Platforms
*Aselsan developing 155 mm Course Correction System*
*Christopher F Foss, London* - Jane's International Defence Review
22 August 2019
Follow

 
 
 RSS 


Turkey’s Aselsan is developing the Atom 155 mm Course Correction System (CCS) to meet potential artillery requirements for the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC).

This would be a direct replacement for the existing 155 mm nose-mounted artillery fuze and would provide the weapon with an increase in accuracy that, according to Aselsan, “gives a circular error of probability (CEP) of less than 50 m, independent of range, as it reduces the dispersion”.

The CCS can be fitted to any 155 mm artillery projectile with a standard NATO two-inch deep well fuze, and it is activated at a distance of about 60 m from the muzzle of the weapon.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> When it comes to Mobility G-6 is no different then the truck mounted arty.
> It seems more at many places that we are not clear about our goal.


Not true; G6's clearance and traversing capabilities not to mention mine resistance plus; you cannot compare artillery mounted on a truck to this; there are complete battlefield awareness systems including fire control systems.






Look at 1:53min section; but it can go over really bad rocky terrain especially those found in Namibia; no truck can withstand it except Ratels/Buffel/Mambas/G6s. Find me a truck that can traverse a gradient of 60 deg like G6.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Not true; G6's clearance and traversing capabilities not to mention mine resistance plus; you cannot compare artillery mounted on a truck to this; there are complete battlefield awareness systems including fire control systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at 1:53min section; but it can go over really bad rocky terrain especially those found in Namibia; no truck can withstand it except Ratels/Buffel/Mambas/G6s. Find me a truck that can traverse a gradient of 60 deg like G6.


what is the powerplant/engine in G6?


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> what is the powerplant/engine in G6?


From what i recall, it was from Deutz (diesel) built locally in Pretoria for decades. Most technologies we used across all our mine proof vehicles, transport trucks are completely dual nature. Deutz engine can be replaced with others based on customer's choice.

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## ali_raza

Ghost 125 said:


> heavy price tag... you can get a battery of other guns in price of one G 6


@denel


----------



## denel

ali_raza said:


> @denel


Not true; that is a myth propagated by other sellers or buyers. This baby can nail a fly on a wall over 50km, mine proof, go where no truck or tracked vehicle can go - sure you will pay a bit more because there is nothing else in this league. 

Try take US or Russian tracked equipment across the namib - they will all break down within 300km if not less.

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## Signalian

@Inception-06 and @Arsalan , i find both of you well versed on Artillery systems. The purposes of all artillery systems are the same, they have various construction, fire and maneuver possibilities and battle applicability methods. Below are some inputs on which mathematical calculations are subjected to simulations to design Artillery systems of the future.

*The calibre* – the large shell (mine) calibre the large degree of fire destruction, it acts positively on the fire power, the measurement unit is mm. 

*Maximum gunfire range *– the large gunfire range the further destruction distance and the more hit of enemy targets, it acts positively on the fire power; also, the large gunfire range the low probability to hit own objects, it acts positively on the durability; the measurement unit is m. 

*The rotation angle of gun tube* – the large angle the less time of fire maneuver and of take aim, it acts positively on the fire power. The vertical rotation angle provides a shooting range and the horizontal one provides a broad battlefront of take aim; the measurement unit is a degree. 

*Number of tubes (for MLRS)* – the more number the much volley intensity and the large bombardment area, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is a piece. 

*Weight of the shell * – the large weight the large destruction degree of target, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is kq. 

*Fire rate *– the high rate the many affected targets in unit time, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is 1/min (shoot/min). 

*Shell's initial velocity* – the high velocity the less dispersion angle of shells and the high shooting accuracy and target hit probability, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is m/san. 

*The weight of ordnance* – the more weight the less maneuver possibilities, it acts negatively on the mobility and applicability; the measurement unit is kq. 

*Size of ordnance* – the large size the less maneuver possibilities on the battle field, it acts negatively on the mobility, the much revealing probability on the enemy part, it acts negatively on the durability; the measurement unit is m3(meter cube) . 

*Number of operating staff* – the more number the much probability revealing and hitting probability on the enemy part; if the ordnance is destroyed then the loss of staff is more, therefore it acts negatively on the durability. This impact is proportional to staff number.

*Ammunition equipment* – the many equipment the more duration of uninterrupted fight activities on the battle field, it acts positively on the fier power and durability; the measurement unit is a piece. 

*Movement possibility (for SPG)* – it acts positively on the movement on the battlefield. It is an integrated factor of the velocity movement and one fuellng determined of passed distance; the measurement unit is km2 /hour.

Above factors when relating to Combat effectiveness and the performance characteristics of Artillery subsystems weapons : 

1) *Mortars:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, vertical and horizontal rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment 

2) *Howitzers and Field Guns:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment and size of ordnance 

Howitzers are able to achieve better elevation angles than field Guns.

3) *Multiple rocket weapons:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance, number of tubes and maneuver possibilities; 

4) *Self-propelled artillery:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance and movement possibilities.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Inception-06 and @Arsalan , i find both of you well versed on Artillery systems. The purposes of all artillery systems are the same, they have various construction, fire and maneuver possibilities and battle applicability methods. Below are some inputs on which mathematical calculations are subjected to simulations to design Artillery systems of the future.
> 
> *The calibre* – the large shell (mine) calibre the large degree of fire destruction, it acts positively on the fire power, the measurement unit is mm.
> 
> *Maximum gunfire range *– the large gunfire range the further destruction distance and the more hit of enemy targets, it acts positively on the fire power; also, the large gunfire range the low probability to hit own objects, it acts positively on the durability; the measurement unit is m.
> 
> *The rotation angle of gun tube* – the large angle the less time of fire maneuver and of take aim, it acts positively on the fire power. The vertical rotation angle provides a shooting range and the horizontal one provides a broad battlefront of take aim; the measurement unit is a degree.
> 
> *Number of tubes (for MLRS)* – the more number the much volley intensity and the large bombardment area, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is a piece.
> 
> *Weight of the shell * – the large weight the large destruction degree of target, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is kq.
> 
> *Fire rate *– the high rate the many affected targets in unit time, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is 1/min (shoot/min).
> 
> *Shell's initial velocity* – the high velocity the less dispersion angle of shells and the high shooting accuracy and target hit probability, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is m/san.
> 
> *The weight of ordnance* – the more weight the less maneuver possibilities, it acts negatively on the mobility and applicability; the measurement unit is kq.
> 
> *Size of ordnance* – the large size the less maneuver possibilities on the battle field, it acts negatively on the mobility, the much revealing probability on the enemy part, it acts negatively on the durability; the measurement unit is m3(meter cube) .
> 
> *Number of operating staff* – the more number the much probability revealing and hitting probability on the enemy part; if the ordnance is destroyed then the loss of staff is more, therefore it acts negatively on the durability. This impact is proportional to staff number.
> 
> *Ammunition equipment* – the many equipment the more duration of uninterrupted fight activities on the battle field, it acts positively on the fier power and durability; the measurement unit is a piece.
> 
> *Movement possibility (for SPG)* – it acts positively on the movement on the battlefield. It is an integrated factor of the velocity movement and one fuellng determined of passed distance; the measurement unit is km2 /hour.
> 
> Above factors when relating to Combat effectiveness and the performance characteristics of Artillery subsystems weapons :
> 
> 1) *Mortars:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, vertical and horizontal rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment
> 
> 2) *Howitzers and Field Guns:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment and size of ordnance
> 
> Howitzers are able to achieve better elevation angles than field Guns.
> 
> 3) *Multiple rocket weapons:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance, number of tubes and maneuver possibilities;
> 
> 4) *Self-propelled artillery:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance and movement possibilities.




Good morning friend, since weeks you are writing excellent articles, I hope I haven't over see any, now I am on the way to matallurgie-academy, I will read your post , and join the discussion after the training, I have some vital points to discuss, which are overseen here since years, wish you the best take care.

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## Path-Finder

*Nammo unveils ramjet artillery shell*
Written by defenceWeb -
15th Jun 2018
2494



Rocket-assisted projectiles (RAP) have been around for decades, but Nammo has gone a step further by using a solid fuel ramjet to reach ranges of over 100km, which requires no modification to the 155mm gun.

Nammo on 12 June introduced the new round. “This could be a game-changer for artillery. With the exception of a small number of precision-guided shells with 50-60 km range, most artillery systems still fire across the same distances as they did when the M109 was introduced more than 50 years ago. This could completely change that,” said Thomas Danbolt, VP of Nammo’s Large Caliber Ammunitions unit.

Nammo’s new design is built around a compact solid fuel ramjet which is kick-started by launching it from a cannon, and is a collaborative program between ammunition and rocket engineers in Nammo.
“We have been building rocket motors for about 60 years, and have specialised in small and powerful motors for air-to-air missiles, such as Sidewinder, IRIS-T and AMRAAM. Some years ago, we began looking at using air-breathing motors to help extend their range, but we quickly saw the massive impact this could have if we fitted it to an artillery shell,” said Erland Ørbekk, VP Technology with Nammo’s business unit for Aerospace Propulsion.

Test firing of the new projectile is planned to commence in 2019-2020, while the new artillery ammunition concept will likely be operational around 2023-2024.
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/joint/...hnology/nammo-unveils-ramjet-artillery-shell/

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Inception-06 and @Arsalan , i find both of you well versed on Artillery systems. The purposes of all artillery systems are the same, they have various construction, fire and maneuver possibilities and battle applicability methods. Below are some inputs on which mathematical calculations are subjected to simulations to design Artillery systems of the future.
> 
> *The calibre* – the large shell (mine) calibre the large degree of fire destruction, it acts positively on the fire power, the measurement unit is mm.
> 
> *Maximum gunfire range *– the large gunfire range the further destruction distance and the more hit of enemy targets, it acts positively on the fire power; also, the large gunfire range the low probability to hit own objects, it acts positively on the durability; the measurement unit is m.
> 
> *The rotation angle of gun tube* – the large angle the less time of fire maneuver and of take aim, it acts positively on the fire power. The vertical rotation angle provides a shooting range and the horizontal one provides a broad battlefront of take aim; the measurement unit is a degree.
> 
> *Number of tubes (for MLRS)* – the more number the much volley intensity and the large bombardment area, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is a piece.
> 
> *Weight of the shell * – the large weight the large destruction degree of target, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is kq.
> 
> *Fire rate *– the high rate the many affected targets in unit time, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is 1/min (shoot/min).
> 
> *Shell's initial velocity* – the high velocity the less dispersion angle of shells and the high shooting accuracy and target hit probability, it acts positively on the fire power; the measurement unit is m/san.
> 
> *The weight of ordnance* – the more weight the less maneuver possibilities, it acts negatively on the mobility and applicability; the measurement unit is kq.
> 
> *Size of ordnance* – the large size the less maneuver possibilities on the battle field, it acts negatively on the mobility, the much revealing probability on the enemy part, it acts negatively on the durability; the measurement unit is m3(meter cube) .
> 
> *Number of operating staff* – the more number the much probability revealing and hitting probability on the enemy part; if the ordnance is destroyed then the loss of staff is more, therefore it acts negatively on the durability. This impact is proportional to staff number.
> 
> *Ammunition equipment* – the many equipment the more duration of uninterrupted fight activities on the battle field, it acts positively on the fier power and durability; the measurement unit is a piece.
> 
> *Movement possibility (for SPG)* – it acts positively on the movement on the battlefield. It is an integrated factor of the velocity movement and one fuellng determined of passed distance; the measurement unit is km2 /hour.
> 
> Above factors when relating to Combat effectiveness and the performance characteristics of Artillery subsystems weapons :
> 
> 1) *Mortars:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, vertical and horizontal rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment
> 
> 2) *Howitzers and Field Guns:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, shell initial velocity, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment and size of ordnance
> 
> Howitzers are able to achieve better elevation angles than field Guns.
> 
> 3) *Multiple rocket weapons:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance, number of tubes and maneuver possibilities;
> 
> 4) *Self-propelled artillery:* calibre, maximum gunfire range, rotation angle of gun tube, weight of shell, fire rate, weight of ordnance, number of operating staff, ammunition equipment, size of ordnance and movement possibilities.



Our better times, when our guns brought fear in the Indian soldiers bone!

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## Rafi

Inception-06 said:


> Our better times, when our guns brought fear in the Indian soldier bones!
> 
> View attachment 586212
> View attachment 586213
> View attachment 586214
> View attachment 586215
> View attachment 586216



Even now our guns killing injuns, left right and centre.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> Our better times, when our guns brought fear in the Indian soldier bones!
> 
> View attachment 586212
> View attachment 586213
> View attachment 586214
> View attachment 586215
> View attachment 586216


They are proving their mettle on CFL. Different calibers 105 mm, 122 mm, 130 mm - all for IA.
AAA is another component for long range LOS fire with 12.7 mm, 14.5 mm, 35 mm.



denel said:


> Not true; that is a myth propagated by other sellers or buyers. This baby can nail a fly on a wall over 50km, mine proof, go where no truck or tracked vehicle can go - sure you will pay a bit more because there is nothing else in this league.
> 
> Try take US or Russian tracked equipment across the namib - they will all break down within 300km if not less.


UAE Army has found Rhino very effective.

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## iLION12345_1

Even the 155 SPs almost saw action in February this year. Were moved right to the border in a certain city of Punjab with their guns at the ready. I don’t believe they’ve been used since 1999. Maybe in the standoff.
Edit: I had been following their upgrade progression till winter 2018. There were still A2s in service at that time but the majority had been upgraded to A5. 
Where exactly do the M109L’s fit into this upgrade chain? The regiments I was in contact with never got those.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> Even the 155 SPs almost saw action in February this year. Were moved right to the border in a certain city of Punjab with their guns at the ready. I don’t believe they’ve been used since 1999. Maybe in the standoff.
> Edit: I had been following their upgrade progression till winter 2018. There were still A2s in service at that time but the majority had been upgraded to A5.
> Where exactly do the M109L’s fit into this upgrade chain? The regiments I was in contact with never got those.


I think they raised new SP regiments, not sure though.

I believe our @Signalian would know, considering he is also a Gunner’s son.

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I think they raised new SP regiments, not sure though.
> 
> I believe our @Signalian would know, considering he is also a Gunner’s son.



May be from your fathers (respect for him) era? Induction of SPG-9 (@Signalian your favourite LOC gun) and 122mm KRL multiple rocket launcher?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> They are proving their mettle on CFL. Different calibers 105 mm, 122 mm, 130 mm - all for IA.
> AAA is another component for long range LOS fire with 12.7 mm, 14.5 mm, 35 mm.
> 
> 
> UAE Army has found Rhino very effective.


I remember I asked u a thing. You didnt replied


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I wonder, what would it take to _reverse engineer_ the M109 series? I mean, we maintain a rebuild factory for these, so we understand how to put the M109s together. The issue is fabricating a new chassis, but if we invest in it, would it really be outside of our ability? The main challenges would likely be the howitzer gun, engine and electronics, but we could those off-the-shelf (or build under license via South Africa, Ukraine, China, etc).

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## jamal18

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder, what would it take to _reverse engineer_ the M109 series? I mean, we maintain a rebuild factory for these, so we understand how to put the M109s together. The issue is fabricating a new chassis, but if we invest in it, would it really be outside of our ability? The main challenges would likely be the howitzer gun, engine and electronics, but we could those off-the-shelf (or build under license via South Africa, Ukraine, China, etc).



I believe that we cannot manufacture a Gun barrel. The rest should be no different to copying a heavy duty commercial vehicle.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Inception-06 said:


> May be from your fathers (respect for him) era? Induction of SPG-9 (@Signalian your favourite LOC gun) and 122mm KRL multiple rocket launcher?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 586299



Thats way way before my father commanded an MLRS battery.

Heck my father joined graduated in 89.



jamal18 said:


> I believe that we cannot manufacture a Gun barrel. The rest should be no different to copying a heavy duty commercial vehicle.


We do manufacture tank guns/smoothbore.

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## jamal18

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We do manufacture tank guns/smoothbore.



I don't think we make Guns as per tank and artillery Guns, if we do it would be a pleasant surprise. I thought the Gun for the Al-Khalid was made in China.

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder, what would it take to _reverse engineer_ the M109 series? I mean, we maintain a rebuild factory for these, so we understand how to put the M109s together. The issue is fabricating a new chassis, but if we invest in it, would it really be outside of our ability? The main challenges would likely be the howitzer gun, engine and electronics, but we could those off-the-shelf (or build under license via South Africa, Ukraine, China, etc).


If only we can make the gun and FCU loader etc and other minor components , that too as a first start is good enough

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> If only we can make the gun and FCU loader etc and other minor components , that too as a first start is good enough


Yeah. 100% indigenization might not be feasible, but I do think there's enough at play locally and from abroad to make a SPH based on the M109. We can acquire the actual gun/turret system from China or South Africa, and the engine from Ukraine. The rest (chassis and integration) we should be able to handle drawing on our experience with the al-Khalid and Talha (i.e., licensed/localized M113).

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yeah. 100% indigenization might not be feasible, but I do think there's enough at play locally and from abroad to make a SPH based on the M109. We can acquire the actual gun/turret system from China or South Africa, and the engine from Ukraine. The rest (chassis and integration) we should be able to handle drawing on our experience with the al-Khalid and Talha (i.e., licensed/localized M113).


I agree but being a bit of an optimist , 
Seeing how we've been manufacturing 125 barrels , 
Maybe we can step up a notch to 155 howitzer guns ? The manufacturing capability will have to be acquired but I'm sure the RND capability exists

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> I agree but being a bit of an optimist ,
> Seeing how we've been manufacturing 125 barrels ,
> Maybe we can step up a notch to 155 howitzer guns ? The manufacturing capability will have to be acquired but I'm sure the RND capability exists


I think so to. I don't think the barrel should be an issue, mostly the dynamic components around the barrel (which make the gun). One idea could be to take a hit on near-term quality issues by co-funding an original project with SA based on their T6-52 platform? That way, we can accelerate the R&D.

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I think they raised new SP regiments, not sure though.
> 
> I believe our @Signalian would know, considering he is also a Gunner’s son.


Some medium towed converted to SP inducting M-109L.



Inception-06 said:


> May be from your fathers (respect for him) era? Induction of SPG-9 (@Signalian your favourite LOC gun) and 122mm KRL multiple rocket launcher?
> View attachment 586299


 My favourite on LOC is SPG-9 ? 

Hahahahahaha



jamal18 said:


> I don't think we make Guns as per tank and artillery Guns, if we do it would be a pleasant surprise. I thought the Gun for the Al-Khalid was made in China.


GUN Factory has the capability of producing barrels ranging from 105mm to 203mm caliber. It has a long standing experience in manufacture of 105mm Gun barrel for upgraded T-59 & T-69 II MP tanks and 125mm Guns / Barrels for the ongoing programmes of Tank Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar. The autofrettaged barrels are manufactured from very high quality Electro Slag Refined Steel.

http://www.hit.gov.pk/defence-tab.php

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think so to. I don't think the barrel should be an issue, mostly the dynamic components around the barrel (which make the gun). One idea could be to take a hit on near-term quality issues by co-funding an original project with SA based on their T6-52 platform? That way, we can accelerate the R&D.


Yeah that's why I said 155 howitzers instead of barrel, much more complex than standard mbt barrels, 
However since the M777ER is almost ready , and India being a customer of base version will most likely also order the ER version in the future as well , 
A threat like that we can't counter with off the shelf purchases , similar to how AZM is going something ambitious needs to be done for the army , Sort of a future army instead of a future soldier program , ie encompassing all the main fighting components

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## The Accountant

jamal18 said:


> I believe that we cannot manufacture a Gun barrel. The rest should be no different to copying a heavy duty commercial vehicle.


We were making gun barrel for al khalid


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## Smarana Mitra

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think so to. I don't think the barrel should be an issue, mostly the dynamic components around the barrel (which make the gun). One idea could be to take a hit on near-term quality issues by co-funding an original project with SA based on their T6-52 platform? That way, we can accelerate the R&D.



Barrel is an issue when it comes to higher power/caliber artillery. The barrel will have to bear enormous pressure from the charge as well as stay straight despite the heavy barrel being pulled down by gravity. If proper quality control is not made, the barrel will start to bend in few weeks time and also, the chances that the barrel will burst when firing will increase drastically


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## HRK

jamal18 said:


> I believe that we cannot manufacture a Gun barrel. The rest should be no different to copying a heavy duty commercial vehicle.


HIT is capable of manufacturing any gun barrel from 105 mm till 203 mm

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder, what would it take to _reverse engineer_ the M109 series? I mean, we maintain a rebuild factory for these, so we understand how to put the M109s together. The issue is fabricating a new chassis, but if we invest in it, would it really be outside of our ability? The main challenges would likely be the howitzer gun, engine and electronics, but we could those off-the-shelf (or build under license via South Africa, Ukraine, China, etc).


We can do that,we fear Uncle Sam.


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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I think they raised new SP regiments, not sure though.
> 
> I believe our @Signalian would know, considering he is also a Gunner’s son.


I know they raised new regiments, what I meant to ask was, where does the M109”L” variant fit in. Is it an A2? An A5? Or something different all-together.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Thats way way before my father commanded an MLRS battery.
> 
> Heck my father joined graduated in 89.
> 
> 
> We do manufacture tank guns/smoothbore.




My father joined in 1981. 71st L/C. He’s Also a gunner.

Also to add to the discussion. HIT is indeed capable of producing 155MM guns for the M109s. But they do not do it currently. Technically they can produce Most of the components for an M109 and have often done so while overhauling them. But I do believe there would be other issues in producing them.



jamal18 said:


> I don't think we make Guns as per tank and artillery Guns, if we do it would be a pleasant surprise. I thought the Gun for the Al-Khalid was made in China.


HIT produces 105 and 125MM smoothbore guns. All of Al-khalids guns are made there. They have that capability for quite a while now.
The pictures are some barrels made in HIT that they have on display.

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## khanasifm

iLION12345_1 said:


> I know they raised new regiments, what I meant to ask was, where does the M109”L” variant fit in. Is it an A2? An A5? Or something different all-together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My father joined in 1981. 71st L/C. He’s Also a gunner.
> 
> Also to add to the discussion. HIT is indeed capable of producing 155MM guns for the M109s. But they do not do it currently. Technically they can produce Most of the components for an M109 and have often done so while overhauling them. But I do believe there would be other issues in producing them.
> 
> 
> HIT produces 105 and 125MM smoothbore guns. All of Al-khalids guns are made there. They have that capability for quite a while now.
> The pictures are some barrels made in HIT that they have on display.



The original plan was to build barrels for 105 mm all the way to 155 mm but not sure if that has materialized 

Gun barrel factory

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## jamal18

Making the barrel is the most technically difficult part. If we can make the barrel, then why aren't we making our own artillery, SP or towed. What's stopping us?

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## Signalian

iLION12345_1 said:


> I know they raised new regiments, what I meant to ask was, where does the M109”L” variant fit in. Is it an A2? An A5? Or something different all-together.


M-109 L is a variant of M-109 A3 with L/39 Gun. Auto loader is not present. FCS is of M-109 A3G (german variant) which makes M-109 L capable as an MBT in direct fire mode.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

jamal18 said:


> I don't think we make Guns as per tank and artillery Guns, if we do it would be a pleasant surprise. I thought the Gun for the Al-Khalid was made in China.



We used ti import tank guns (AK) from France not China.

Till 2011:





http://www.dawn.com/news/621771



jamal18 said:


> Making the barrel is the most technically difficult part. If we can make the barrel, then why aren't we making our own artillery, SP or towed. What's stopping us?


There was a project to produce arty guns. Seems it was put on hibernation or worse.

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## Bossman

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We used ti import tank guns (AK) from France not China.
> 
> Till 2011:
> View attachment 586743
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/621771
> 
> 
> There was a project to produce arty guns. Seems it was put on hibernation or worse.



I don’t think we imported the finished guns from France but the blanks for the barrel which were machined locally. The blanks are now procured from either Peoples Steel Mills or Heavy Mechanical Complex, I am not sure.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bossman said:


> I don’t think we imported the finished guns from France but the blanks for the barrel which were machined locally. The blanks are now procured from either Peoples Steel Mills or Heavy Mechanical Complex, I am not sure.



ISLAMABAD, April 17: *The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks. *

So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre '*blanks' from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.*


The *first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army -- the end-user.*



According to sources, the army and the HIT wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a minute, and for the automatic ammunition handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire magazine of Al-Khalid tank.

The official said that the *manufacturing of the first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the Strategic Plans Division (SPD)* set up in 2000 to improve the control of nuclear operations and monitor and develop coordination among various defence production and research organisations in the country.

The *specialised weapons grade steel was manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities under the heavy forge and foundry section*. The block of specialised metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel.

The HMC also has specialised facilities of large vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat treatments several times. Since it was the first job for the HMC, experts from other defence organisations monitored the process which took almost two to three months to complete.

The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50 barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel procured from France.

The official said that after the completion of 50 tank barrels, the *HMC would consider producing artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.*

Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59 tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and III now under way at the HIT.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We used ti import tank guns (AK) from France not China.
> 
> Till 2011:
> View attachment 586743
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/621771
> 
> 
> There was a project to produce arty guns. Seems it was put on hibernation or worse.

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> ISLAMABAD, April 17: *The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks. *
> 
> So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre '*blanks' from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.*
> 
> 
> The *first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army -- the end-user.*
> 
> 
> 
> According to sources, the army and the HIT wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a minute, and for the automatic ammunition handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire magazine of Al-Khalid tank.
> 
> The official said that the *manufacturing of the first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the Strategic Plans Division (SPD)* set up in 2000 to improve the control of nuclear operations and monitor and develop coordination among various defence production and research organisations in the country.
> 
> The *specialised weapons grade steel was manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities under the heavy forge and foundry section*. The block of specialised metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel.
> 
> The HMC also has specialised facilities of large vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat treatments several times. Since it was the first job for the HMC, experts from other defence organisations monitored the process which took almost two to three months to complete.
> 
> The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50 barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel procured from France.
> 
> The official said that after the completion of 50 tank barrels, the *HMC would consider producing artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.*
> 
> Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59 tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and III now under way at the HIT.



If we can produce Tank Main Gun why can't we produce new Towed 155 MM Artillery Gun on our own

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## Ahmet Pasha

Pakistan sab kuch kar sakta hai bas motivation chahiye. And we need to get rid of the Afsar Syndrome.


Zarvan said:


> If we can produce Tank Main Gun why can't we produce new Towed 155 MM Artillery Gun on our own

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## Smarana Mitra

Zarvan said:


> If we can produce Tank Main Gun why can't we produce new Towed 155 MM Artillery Gun on our own


Do you know the pressure difference n between tend gun and 155mm artillery gum? Just compare the weight and the muzzle velocity of the shells to understand

155mm barrel requires massive strength to resist the blast pressure and also to resist gravity pull in bending the barrel under its own weight


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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> M-109 L is a variant of M-109 A3 with L/39 Gun. Auto loader is not present. FCS is of M-109 A3G (german variant) which makes M-109 L capable as an MBT in direct fire mode.


Thanks. That’s interesting to hear.



Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you know the pressure difference n between tend gun and 155mm artillery gum? Just compare the weight and the muzzle velocity of the shells to understand
> 
> 155mm barrel requires massive strength to resist the blast pressure and also to resist gravity pull in bending the barrel under its own weight


Pakistan is capable of producing those barrels. We probably might even have done so once or twice in the past. But they are not mass producing them. There could be a few reasons as to why.

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## ali_raza

Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you know the pressure difference n between tend gun and 155mm artillery gum? Just compare the weight and the muzzle velocity of the shells to understand
> 
> 155mm barrel requires massive strength to resist the blast pressure and also to resist gravity pull in bending the barrel under its own weight


tiny european nations r making the same things since 20s
here we r crying about steel fabrication 
serbia in smaller then azad kashmir and producers of some of nice equipment 
cz factory is barely 5000 sqm and productive like hell

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## Smarana Mitra

ali_raza said:


> tiny european nations r making the same things since 20s
> here we r crying about steel fabrication
> serbia in smaller then azad kashmir and producers of some of nice equipment
> cz factory is barely 5000 sqm and productive like hell


Serbian factories is using USSR technology. When USSR split, the factories in Serbia, Ukraine etc remained there. As a result, these countries have high end technology despite not having put any efforts.

Next, EU countries did not make 155mm barrels in 1920s. It was only in WW2 that USA made them. Even these were not as stable as they are now and usually exploded or bent in operation. But since there was urgency and sudden starting of WW2 made a compulsion, USA made them in a hurry. So, if Pakistan makes them in a hurry, it will also get artillery that is unreliable and explodes now and them. If Pakistan is OK with loss of few soldiers and just wants immediate manufacturing, it can go for inferior design. There is always a way to trade off quality with speed. The question is whether it is worth it

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## Bossman

Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you know the pressure difference n between tend gun and 155mm artillery gum? Just compare the weight and the muzzle velocity of the shells to understand
> 
> 155mm barrel requires massive strength to resist the blast pressure and also to resist gravity pull in bending the barrel under its own weight


No difference for tank guns. Modern tanks including AKs and AZs have devices which measure the change in barrel due to gravity and include it in the ballistics calculations

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## ali_raza

Smarana Mitra said:


> Serbian factories is using USSR technology. When USSR split, the factories in Serbia, Ukraine etc remained there. As a result, these countries have high end technology despite not having put any efforts.
> 
> Next, EU countries did not make 155mm barrels in 1920s. It was only in WW2 that USA made them. Even these were not as stable as they are now and usually exploded or bent in operation. But since there was urgency and sudden starting of WW2 made a compulsion, USA made them in a hurry. So, if Pakistan makes them in a hurry, it will also get artillery that is unreliable and explodes now and them. If Pakistan is OK with loss of few soldiers and just wants immediate manufacturing, it can go for inferior design. There is always a way to trade off quality with speed. The question is whether it is worth it


who was stopping us from starting some crucial projects in 60-90s 
when we were close to americans 
or 90s when ex soviets were in disaster 
everything was up for grab.
i even heard there nuclear scientists approached us but we gave them cold shoulder 
back then CARs states were even struggling to gather food.we were very much in picture cos of afghan jihad.
we got good deal of tot from ukrain.but that was it.we didn’t pursued much further

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## Ahmet Pasha

Afsar syndrome bro.
Just sit back sip coolaid and just be an afsar.


ali_raza said:


> who was stopping us from starting some crucial projects in 60-90s
> when we were close to americans
> or 90s when ex soviets were in disaster
> everything was up for grab.
> i even heard there nuclear scientists approached us but we gave them cold shoulder
> back then CARs states were even struggling to gather food.we were very much in picture cos of afghan jihad.
> we got good deal of tot from ukrain.but that was it.we didn’t pursued much further

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## ali_raza

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Afsar syndrome bro.
> Just sit back sip coolaid and just be an afsar.


lol


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## Smarana Mitra

ali_raza said:


> who was stopping us from starting some crucial projects in 60-90s
> when we were close to americans
> or 90s when ex soviets were in disaster
> everything was up for grab.
> i even heard there nuclear scientists approached us but we gave them cold shoulder
> back then CARs states were even struggling to gather food.we were very much in picture cos of afghan jihad.
> we got good deal of tot from ukrain.but that was it.we didn’t pursued much further



Do you really think that nuclear scientists will approach Pakistan? Or that USSR will sell their technology to Pakistan for money? USSR dissolution was mainly about splitting of industrial base of USSR amongst the new countries. For example, some countries like Ukraine got Antonov factory, countries like Yugoslavia got factories to make some other heavy equipments etc and as a result, no single country had all the infrastructure to make proper weapons. For example, Russia could not make transport planes because of Ukraine having the antonov factory whereas Ukraine had no other industry and hence could not do anything else. All the countries that split from USSR did so after USA assured them of soft loans and hence they did not have funds deficit. The problem was not with funds but with industrial base. Only those countries like India, China, which already had industrial base, managed to gain somethings from USSR. India, China offered their domestic industry to help Russia get equipments and parts for their weapons and in turn USSR allowed India and China to have full license to manufacture all the items which was jointly produced. India offered HAL, which already had ability to make MiG21 to develop Su30 and hence India got Su30 technology as return. It is unlikely that Pakistan could offer anything meaningful to these countries to get any technology during 90s.

Yes, Pakistan could have developed technology and its know how earlier itself. But Pakistan never industrialized. Pakistan did not have enough technical manpower and never had enough engineers and scientists to form large base of scientific community to start new projects. Pakistan was indeed close to USA but that does not mean that USA will spoon feed Pakistan. For example, Iran was also close to USA but Iran managed to get several technology and even developed a small industrial base with USA support. Iran then used it after revolution to get some amount of indigenisation. Pakistan on the other hand, did not even think of developing any industry and never tried to develop enough skilled manpower for industry.


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## ali_raza

Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you really think that nuclear scientists will approach Pakistan? Or that USSR will sell their technology to Pakistan for money? USSR dissolution was mainly about splitting of industrial base of USSR amongst the new countries. For example, some countries like Ukraine got Antonov factory, countries like Yugoslavia got factories to make some other heavy equipments etc and as a result, no single country had all the infrastructure to make proper weapons. For example, Russia could not make transport planes because of Ukraine having the antonov factory whereas Ukraine had no other industry and hence could not do anything else. All the countries that split from USSR did so after USA assured them of soft loans and hence they did not have funds deficit. The problem was not with funds but with industrial base. Only those countries like India, China, which already had industrial base, managed to gain somethings from USSR. India, China offered their domestic industry to help Russia get equipments and parts for their weapons and in turn USSR allowed India and China to have full license to manufacture all the items which was jointly produced. India offered HAL, which already had ability to make MiG21 to develop Su30 and hence India got Su30 technology as return. It is unlikely that Pakistan could offer anything meaningful to these countries to get any technology during 90s.
> 
> Yes, Pakistan could have developed technology and its know how earlier itself. But Pakistan never industrialized. Pakistan did not have enough technical manpower and never had enough engineers and scientists to form large base of scientific community to start new projects. Pakistan was indeed close to USA but that does not mean that USA will spoon feed Pakistan. For example, Iran was also close to USA but Iran managed to get several technology and even developed a small industrial base with USA support. Iran then used it after revolution to get some amount of indigenisation. Pakistan on the other hand, did not even think of developing any industry and never tried to develop enough skilled manpower for industry.


i m not joking 
i have solid information 
i met people who met them in peshawar 
cant disclose there identities but its solid

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## SD 10

ali_raza said:


> i m not joking
> i have solid information
> i met people who met them in peshawar
> cant disclose there identities but its solid


if you dont mind me saying if you can't disclose anything, then why talk about it in the first place.


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## ali_raza

SD 10 said:


> if you dont mind me saying if you can't disclose anything, then why talk about it in the first place.


wht do want to know.names of those people?
or projects they wanted to work on?
wht else u wana know 
missile launch codes?
coordinates to silos?


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## HRK

ali_raza said:


> i m not joking
> i have solid information
> i met people who met them in peshawar
> cant disclose there identities but its solid


though it is a fact of a distant past but not known publicly, I would advice you to plz stop here ....

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## ali_raza

HRK said:


> though it is a fact of a distant past but not known publicly, I would advice you to plz stop here ....


sure thing buddy

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## SD 10

ali_raza said:


> wht do want to know.names of those people?
> or projects they wanted to work on?
> wht else u wana know
> missile launch codes?
> coordinates to silos?


Naah man! i am just saying that why even talk about that , let it stay a secret.


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## ali_raza

SD 10 said:


> Naah man! i am just saying that why even talk about that , let it stay a secret.


just to give it a context about our laziness


----------



## Signalian

Mounting a howitzer on a truck from paper:

" *Launching dynamic analysis for truck mounted howitzer by using flexible multi-body techniques* "

*Basic structure of a truck on which howitzer will be mounted*






*Design layout of a 122 mm Howitzer mounted on a truck*







*Model of the Howitzer mounted Truck with flexible TLC (Truck lower chassis)*






*Design showing Truck upper chassis and truck lower chassis (both types flexible)*






*Completely RIGID chassis (RED and Green)*






*Partial Flexible chassis (Truck Lower Chassis RED ) TLC*





*Completely flexible chassis ( TUC and TLC ) upper and lower chassis*







*Howitzer mounted truck Assembly in firing position using flexible chassis*

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## ali_raza

Signalian said:


> Mounting a howitzer on a truck from paper:
> 
> " *Launching dynamic analysis for truck mounted howitzer by using flexible multi-body techniques* "
> 
> *Basic structure of a truck on which howitzer will be mounted*
> View attachment 588883
> 
> 
> *Design layout of a 122 mm Howitzer mounted on a truck*
> 
> View attachment 588882
> 
> 
> 
> *Model of the Howitzer mounted Truck with flexible TLC (Truck lower chassis)*
> View attachment 588884
> 
> 
> 
> *Design showing Truck upper chassis and truck lower chassis (both types flexible)*
> 
> View attachment 588885
> 
> 
> *Completely RIGID chassis (RED and Green)*
> View attachment 588886
> 
> 
> 
> *Partial Flexible chassis (Truck Lower Chassis RED ) TLC*
> View attachment 588887
> 
> 
> *Completely flexible chassis ( TUC and TLC ) upper and lower chassis*
> View attachment 588888
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Howitzer mounted truck Assembly in firing position using flexible chassis*
> View attachment 588889


action speak louder then words.
when r we doing it


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## Hassan Guy

ali_raza said:


> action speak louder then words.
> when r we doing it

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


>


...or when we're rich enough so that these systems stop failing when we test them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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## ali_raza

Hassan Guy said:


>


lol


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## PakFactor

Hassan Guy said:


>



lol


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## Philip the Arab

Hassan Guy said:


>


lol


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## Signalian

ali_raza said:


> action speak louder then words.
> when r we doing it


R&D..... required.

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## Hassan Guy

Signalian said:


> R&D..... required.


bruh, these guys got tomahawk equivalent missiles in production, they could attach a howitzer to a truck if they wanted

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> bruh, these guys got tomahawk equivalent missiles in production, they could attach a howitzer to a truck if they wanted


...but we gotta test foreign systems so we can tell foreign OEMs that their stuff sucks.

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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> who was stopping us from starting some crucial projects in 60-90s
> when we were close to americans
> or 90s when ex soviets were in disaster
> everything was up for grab.
> i even heard there nuclear scientists approached us but we gave them cold shoulder
> back then CARs states were even struggling to gather food.we were very much in picture cos of afghan jihad.
> we got good deal of tot from ukrain.but that was it.we didn’t pursued much further


china did, it grabbed everything, look where it is now..remember china wasnt rich in 1990s

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## Signalian

Hassan Guy said:


> bruh, these guys got tomahawk equivalent missiles in production, they could attach a howitzer to a truck if they wanted


comparing two different things. Tech comes through R&D. Divert R&D towards a certain area and you will get results

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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> china did, it grabbed everything, look where it is now..remember china wasnt rich in 1990s


exactly my point and i was told exactly same by my guy that chinese weren’t afraid to welcome everyone

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## Sunny4pak

*Pak Army Artillery Guns & MRLs*


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## Sulman Badshah

Official Brochure States that A-100 is Capable of Launching Guided Rockets as well

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## Bratva

New threat for Pakistan at LoC 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204406588452167680

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## Haris Ali2140

Bratva said:


> New threat for Pakistan at LoC
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204406588452167680


What's the counter???

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What's the counter???


Lol, none.

If you want guided shells, can always buy Chinese GP-1/WS-35

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## Haris Ali2140

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol, none.
> 
> If you want guided shells, can always buy Chinese GP-1/WS-35
> 
> View attachment 593633


So besides guidance its the same thing???

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## Great Janjua

Bratva said:


> New threat for Pakistan at LoC
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204406588452167680


Take a trip to China buy their equivalent off the Indian purchase and pray it works

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> M-109 L is a variant of M-109 A3 with L/39 Gun. Auto loader is not present. FCS is of M-109 A3G (german variant) which makes M-109 L capable as an MBT in direct fire mode.


In Portuguese Army, during Mechanized Brigade assault on a urban position, its standard operation procedure to detach a M109A5 Battery with the first wave to make direct fire against the edge.​

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204556823161786368
reason for posting is Pakistan has large number of M109 and this is the next evolution for M109.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> R&D..... required.



Perhaps also a combined arms ideology required,
A clear mindset required of how to achieve that theory, 
Execution of that theory into practice.

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## Basel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What's the counter???



WLRs and capable strike capability against enemy artillery.

How M-109 A6 works in field.


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## Gryphon

Inception-06 said:


> Indian Artillery is totally underestimated, especially their numbers in 130mm is overwhelming



No. of towed arty pcs (105mm, 122mm, 130mm field) in PA service is underestimated. 

Rest assured, IA superior positions in Neelum wont hold back PA response.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> No. of towed arty pcs (105mm, 122mm, 130mm field) in PA service is underestimated.
> 
> Rest assured, IA superior positions in Neelum wont hold back PA response.


Sir do we manufacture artillery like we do Tanks, APCs?


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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> No. of towed arty pcs (105mm, 122mm, 130mm field) in PA service is underestimated.
> 
> Rest assured, IA superior positions in Neelum wont hold back PA response.



Sure !

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## Inception-06

Artillery in Anti Tank role!

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## PanzerKiel

Inception-06 said:


> Artillery in Anti Tank role!
> 
> View attachment 622908
> 
> View attachment 622910


Its basically artillery in assault role, our artillery is employed in this configuration for bunker busting of bunkers along enemy DCBs.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Sir do we manufacture artillery like we do Tanks, APCs?


It all comes whether you have the expertise in making of the barrels...they require complex metallurgy, something which our country still cant do. You can judge this from the fact that how many universities of our country are teaching metallurgy.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> No. of towed arty pcs (105mm, 122mm, 130mm field) in PA service is underestimated.
> 
> Rest assured, IA superior positions in Neelum wont hold back PA response.

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## Armchair

The most important artillery upgrade for Pak is to integrate UAVs with artillery fire. This has been revolutionary from the Turkish experience.



PanzerKiel said:


> Its basically artillery in assault role, our artillery is employed in this configuration for bunker busting of bunkers along enemy DCBs.
> 
> 
> It all comes whether you have the expertise in making of the barrels...they require complex metallurgy, something which our country still cant do. You can judge this from the fact that how many universities of our country are teaching metallurgy.



my brother I have missed you, where have you been? Are you still a lieutenant in PA?

B/w there are ways around the metallurgy problem. We have some capability if we are now building Al Khalid gun from scratch within Pak. The other is to think innovatively with recoil and recoilless mechanisms building something between a recoiless gun and a high velocity artillery piece.

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## Basel

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 622940



Which gun is that and is it still in use in Anti tank role??

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## PanzerKiel

Armchair said:


> The most important artillery upgrade for Pak is to integrate UAVs with artillery fire. This has been revolutionary from the Turkish experience.
> 
> 
> 
> my brother I have missed you, where have you been? Are you still a lieutenant in PA?
> 
> B/w there are ways around the metallurgy problem. We have some capability if we are now building Al Khalid gun from scratch within Pak. The other is to think innovatively with recoil and recoilless mechanisms building something between a recoiless gun and a high velocity artillery piece.



C130s and Bell 412s are already integrated with our artillery and have been very successful.

We may be building tanks, but as i said before, the barrels remains our weak link, its quality of metal, whether its chromed or not, you can judge this from the fact that we still fire, in some instances, famous US Long Tom Rifles (155 / 8 inch)from WW2, imagine their barrel's metallurgy that they are worthy and barrel in such a superb condition that they are able to pour accurate fire on a target. Its because they have got long quarters of life. Chinese barrels have very less quarter life.

Another example is our Type 56-2 Assault Rifle. Ask anyone what happens if you fire 2-3 mags in a row. The barrels we make in no way match the international standards.



Basel said:


> Which gun is that and is it still in use in Anti tank role??


Thats M-40 105mm Recoilless Rifle mounted on a Jeep. Previously used to be in our R&S Units. Then they became part of our LAT units. Now they have almost been phased out by BSWS.

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## Gryphon

PanzerKiel said:


> you can judge this from the fact that we still fire, in some instances, famous US Long Tom Rifles (155 / 8 inch)from WW2, imagine their barrel's metallurgy that they are worthy and barrel in such a superb condition that they are able to pour accurate fire on a target. Its because they have got long quarters of life.



8 inch M115 or 155mm Long Tom ?

I believe the latter serves museums now.

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## PanzerKiel

Gryphon said:


> 8 inch M115 or 155mm Long Tom ?
> 
> I believe the latter serves museums now.


The latter, until lately artillery officers under training used to fire it.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> The latter, until lately artillery officers under training used to fire it.


Sometimes its more to do with how the barrels are tempered rather than the quality of the actual steel. Some processes involve cold treatment and various other kinds of treatment. But I understand what you are saying, point made.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> 8 inch M115 or 155mm Long Tom ?
> 
> I believe the latter serves museums now.



8 inch M155 and 15mm Long Tom are the same!


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## PanzerKiel

Inception-06 said:


> 8 inch M155 and 15mm Long Tom are the same!


Nopes, one is short barreled howitzer, one is long barreled gun, one is M115 while the other is M1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M115_howitzer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_gun_M1

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## Inception-06

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, one is short barreled howitzer, one is long barreled gun, one is M115 while the other is M1.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M115_howitzer
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_gun_M1



Would it make sense to buy old stocks and spare parts from around the world to increase the numbers and service for the M1 and M115 or invest in the less expensive and proven 130mm type-59 field gun? Do we need more barrels to keep India at bay in the field of artillery?


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## PanzerKiel

Inception-06 said:


> Would it make sense to buy old stocks and spare parts from around the world to increase the numbers and service for the M1 and M115 or invest in the less expensive and proven 130mm type-59 field gun? Do we need more barrels to keep India at bay in the field of artillery?



Right now we are using a combination of both. Like we still use 25 Pdr in some areas. But otherwise, we are going for new ones.

Answer would be the same. Numbers wont and dont decide. Tactics, the way they are employed, that will decide. In 1965, our 4 Corps Artillery, though less in number, played havoc with Indians since it was employed as a punch. Indians, though superior in numbers, distributed theirs in penny packets. Kudos to Brig Amjad Chaudhary for that.

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## Inception-06

PanzerKiel said:


> Right now we are using a combination of both. Like we still use 25 Pdr in some areas. But otherwise, we are going for new ones.
> 
> Answer would be the same. Numbers wont and dont decide. Tactics, the way they are employed, that will decide. In 1965, our 4 Corps Artillery, though less in number, played havoc with Indians since it was employed as a punch. Indians, though superior in numbers, distributed theirs in penny packets. Kudos to Brig Amjad Chaudhary for that.



What's the best tactical artillery move or reaction regarding the Indian bombardments in the Nheelum valley?


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## PanzerKiel

Inception-06 said:


> What's the best tactical artillery move or reaction regarding the Indian bombardments in the Nheelum valley?



Target Indian posts which are firing or directing the fire.

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## Kompromat

Send in the BATs to mow down a patrol party. Indian Army understands coffins very well. The most effective tool is to inflict casualties, not to waste the precious ammunition. 




Inception-06 said:


> What's the best tactical artillery move or reaction regarding the Indian bombardments in the Nheelum valley?

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## kursed

Time to put SH-15 with ERFB RA/BB ammo to good use, not sure if we have the BeiDou guidance incorporated but if we do, their FSBs should get obliterated.

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## Cuirassier

kursed said:


> Time to put SH-15 with ERFB RA/BB ammo to good use, not sure if we have the BeiDou guidance incorporated but if we do, their FSBs should get obliterated.


I guess the maximum calibre we use along LC is 130mm. Which was used today hence the casualties in Kupwara occured pretty deep.

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## kursed

Yes but India has introduced Dhanush to the theater now, so Pakistan will need to respond in kind or via some other way. I'd prefer guided projectiles at their FSBs for a one-time lesson.

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## Pakistani Fighter

TF141 said:


> Which was used today hence the casualties in Kupwara occured pretty deep.


Link of casualties?


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## kursed

TF141 said:


> I guess the maximum calibre we use along LC is 130mm. Which was used today hence the casualties in Kupwara occured pretty deep.


Have we responded yet? Did not see any details on that.

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## Pakistani Fighter

PanzerKiel said:


> Target Indian posts which are firing or directing the fire.


This is an only an ideal response unfortunately



kursed said:


> Have we responded yet? Did not see any details on that.


We are responding obviously. But how much effective thats not known uptill now


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## PanzerKiel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> This is an only an ideal response unfortunately


Nops, this is a very normal response, as per procedure.happens often.

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## Phantom.

Whats the number of towed artillery and self propelled artillery which is in service??????


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## Cuirassier

kursed said:


> Have we responded yet? Did not see any details on that.


I was referring to the 3 civvie casualties, apparently happened pretty deep inside IoK.

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## Cuirassier

kursed said:


> Yes but India has introduced Dhanush to the theater now, so Pakistan will need to respond in kind or via some other way. I'd prefer guided projectiles at their FSBs for a one-time lesson.


GPS guided mortars are needed IMO.


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## kursed

TF141 said:


> GPS guided mortars are needed IMO.


We have their FSBs mapped out. Would hope they match the caliber, like the usual.

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## mingle

After artillery match Up what option india has?? Can't use air power saw her effectiveness last year? I think no practical option left for india after heavy artillery use.

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> It all comes whether you have the expertise in making of the barrels...they require complex metallurgy, something which our country still cant do. You can judge this from the fact that how many universities of our country are teaching metallurgy.




Here is a kind of system that is inbetween the capability of traditional artillery and mortar systems. This doesn't require the same grade of metallurgy due to the lower velocity and stress on the barrels. One could make these as a way to supplant traditional artillery perhaps. 
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...avily-armed-and-air-droppable-gun-mortar-tank

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## Shabi1

mingle said:


> After artillery match Up what option india has?? Can't use air power saw her effectiveness last year? I think no practical option left for india after heavy artillery use.


She will go back to try and use unconventional means as before. Proxies that they paid for or used indirectly have failed so maybe direct covert terrorism means by own operatives but this will be very risky as when caught there will be huge consequences.

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## Pakistani Fighter

We must look into Light Weight Howitzer AH 4

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## Khanivore

Are PA's M109s networked yet?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256803803036151809

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Its basically artillery in assault role, our artillery is employed in this configuration for bunker busting of bunkers along enemy DCBs.
> 
> 
> It all comes whether you have the expertise in making of the barrels...they require complex metallurgy, something which our country still cant do. You can judge this from the fact that how many universities of our country are teaching metallurgy.



I wonder if Pak military knows about heat treatment post manufacturing. After the barrels are milled, they need to go through various processes of heat treatment. The aim is to harden the steel and achieve higher carbon content on critical sections (such as the inner surface of barrels). This can increase strength by as much as 3 times. 

There are a hundred ways to do this and this needs serious research and practical metallurgy. Some methods include using carbon monoxide and plasma, while less sophisticated methods include packing coal in the barrels. Or using bitumen. Multiple stages have to be repeated, sometimes such processes can take over 12 hours.

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## ali_raza

Khanivore said:


> Are PA's M109s networked yet?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256803803036151809


@PanzerKiel



Armchair said:


> I wonder if Pak military knows about heat treatment post manufacturing. After the barrels are milled, they need to go through various processes of heat treatment. The aim is to harden the steel and achieve higher carbon content on critical sections (such as the inner surface of barrels). This can increase strength by as much as 3 times.
> 
> There are a hundred ways to do this and this needs serious research and practical metallurgy. Some methods include using carbon monoxide and plasma, while less sophisticated methods include packing coal in the barrels. Or using bitumen. Multiple stages have to be repeated, sometimes such processes can take over 12 hours.


specialized steel mills r required 
we dont have traditionally whts called stell industry neither do anyone in subcontinent for that matter 
germany in my view in ww2 more strong and advanced then indian pakistan bangladesh combined of 2020

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## PanzerKiel

ali_raza said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> 
> specialized steel mills r required
> we dont have traditionally whts called stell industry neither do anyone in subcontinent for that matter
> germany in my view in ww2 more strong and advanced then indian pakistan bangladesh combined of 2020



Networked in which sense?

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> Networked in which sense?


they fired shells at the same time at the same target they were i guess connected together some how
i guess is still a concept


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## PanzerKiel

ali_raza said:


> they fired shells at the same time at the same target they were i guess connected together some how
> i guess is still a concept



No networking required for that. Pretty simple, all are in communication with each other, the Commander gives the firing command, everyone fires together.

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## Joe Shearer

ali_raza said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> 
> specialized steel mills r required
> we dont have traditionally whts called stell industry neither do anyone in subcontinent for that matter
> germany in my view in ww2 more strong and advanced then indian pakistan bangladesh combined of 2020



Sir, that is very far from correct. I have worked in the steel industry in India and abroad for 12 years, and have worked in every single kind of specialisation of a particular kind of product, uniquely in Indian industry. If you look for Bharat Forge and look for what they are doing, in conjunction with specialised manufacturers of steel billets and barrel blanks, you might get a different view of things. 

I have no comment about Germany in WWII, but very many of those whom I knew were trained in Germany, in the best metallurgical industries there. When I read some stuff in some other post on this thread (not yours), I was aghast at the abysmal ignorance on display. On reading your present post, I can only reflect that for someone who for his age and service has displayed almost an encyclopaedic knowledge of matters military, this is a little lacking.

My apologies if I have spoken out of turn.

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## ali_raza

Joe Shearer said:


> Sir, that is very far from correct. I have worked in the steel industry in India and abroad for 12 years, and have worked in every single kind of specialisation of a particular kind of product, uniquely in Indian industry. If you look for Bharat Forge and look for what they are doing, in conjunction with specialised manufacturers of steel billets and barrel blanks, you might get a different view of things.
> 
> I have no comment about Germany in WWII, but very many of those whom I knew were trained in Germany, in the best metallurgical industries there. When I read some stuff in some other post on this thread (not yours), I was aghast at the abysmal ignorance on display. On reading your present post, I can only reflect that for someone who for his age and service has displayed almost an encyclopaedic knowledge of matters military, this is a little lacking.
> 
> My apologies if I have spoken out of turn.


wht i was referring to was military and collective superiority of third riche
they were class of there own.
there efficiency and total outclassed expertise in planning is unmatched 
we desis r yet to reach there.



ali_raza said:


> wht i was referring to was military and collective superiority of third riche
> they were class of there own.
> there efficiency and total outclassed expertise in planning is unmatched
> we desis r yet to reach there.


i rather thankful for ur words
but me personally haven spent time in many countries 
lived and studied in US i can say for sure that we as subcontinent r behind because we lack the discipline required 
and the attitude of half measures 
these habits creat a mess which always gets bigger and bigger 
we r poor not because lack of opportunity but because lack of education

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## Joe Shearer

ali_raza said:


> wht i was referring to was military and collective superiority of third riche
> they were class of there own.
> there efficiency and total outclassed expertise in planning is unmatched
> we desis r yet to reach there.
> 
> 
> i rather thankful for ur words
> but me personally haven spent time in many countries
> lived and studied in US i can say for sure that we as subcontinent r behind because we lack the discipline required
> and the attitude of half measures
> these habits creat a mess which always gets bigger and bigger
> we r poor not because lack of opportunity but because lack of education



In a generic kind of way, you may be right, but we have two separate sets of towed medium artillery - 155 mm howitzers - one a DRDO design de novo, another a re-working of Bofors transferred technology that was completely overlooked for decades. In addition, the older, but very, very reliable 130 mm Russian guns are being up-gunned to 155 mm at a cost of a crore apiece - this has been reported earlier. These are quite apart from the M777 heli-portable titanium-built gun procured, ironically, from BAE Systems US, and the self-propelled K9 howitzer re-named Vajra and bought from the Koreans for manufacture by the Indian partner.

It may be noted that both the two developments ATAGS and Dhanush have ranges in excess of the Bofors 27 kms.; I was flabbergasted to read of 100 kms. ranges in one post.

While there is a major emphasis on standardisation on 155 mm, there is also the capability to manufacture 105 mm field guns, both towed and truck/vehicle mounted (not SP), and a technology demonstration of the same field gun in titanium, hence heli-portable like the M777.

In the same context, keeping in view the Major's comments on the relevance of towed artillery and self-propelled artillery in mountain areas, there is urgent work going on for the strengthening of roads to bear up to 40 tonnes load throughout Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. Part of this programme includes building - annually - 3 miles of bridges (through the two border areas). 

@Arsalan 
@PanzerKiel

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## ali_raza

Joe Shearer said:


> In a generic kind of way, you may be right, but we have two separate sets of towed medium artillery - 155 mm howitzers - one a DRDO design de novo, another a re-working of Bofors transferred technology that was completely overlooked for decades. In addition, the older, but very, very reliable 130 mm Russian guns are being up-gunned to 155 mm at a cost of a crore apiece - this has been reported earlier. These are quite apart from the M777 heli-portable titanium-built gun procured, ironically, from BAE Systems US, and the self-propelled K9 howitzer re-named Vajra and bought from the Koreans for manufacture by the Indian partner.
> 
> It may be noted that both the two developments ATAGS and Dhanush have ranges in excess of the Bofors 27 kms.; I was flabbergasted to read of 100 kms. ranges in one post.
> 
> While there is a major emphasis on standardisation on 155 mm, there is also the capability to manufacture 105 mm field guns, both towed and truck/vehicle mounted (not SP), and a technology demonstration of the same field gun in titanium, hence heli-portable like the M777.
> 
> In the same context, keeping in view the Major's comments on the relevance of towed artillery and self-propelled artillery in mountain areas, there is urgent work going on for the strengthening of roads to bear up to 40 tonnes load throughout Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. Part of this programme includes building - annually - 3 miles of bridges (through the two border areas).
> 
> @Arsalan
> @PanzerKiel


u just answered urself 
u r forced to work on the products made by westerners 5 decades ago.
i will be happy if a new out of box thing was invented 
its not against india but as my notion that we lack the vision of creativity 
that’s reality of situation

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## Joe Shearer

ali_raza said:


> u just answered urself
> u r forced to work on the products made by westerners 5 decades ago.
> i will be happy if a new out of box thing was invented
> its not against india but as my notion that we lack the vision of creativity
> that’s reality of situation



LOL.

We don't need creativity. We need two artillery divisions with converging fire trajectories firing shells 45 kms in and around the areas hinted at for deployment of all the brand new armoured brigades and motorised infantry formations being put together. The creativity can come later; at the moment, we need to hold what we have.

We don't need to conquer a country several times bigger than ours for the sake of lebensraum; we don't need to drive through armies stronger than ours; we just need to see off whoever wants to shoot us up.


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## ali_raza

Joe Shearer said:


> LOL.
> 
> We don't need creativity. We need two artillery divisions with converging fire trajectories firing shells 45 kms in and around the areas hinted at for deployment of all the brand new armoured brigades and motorised infantry formations being put together. The creativity can come later; at the moment, we need to hold what we have.
> 
> We don't need to conquer a country several times bigger than ours for the sake of lebensraum; we don't need to drive through armies stronger than ours; we just need to see off whoever wants to shoot us up.


half measures buddy 
or i must say desperate measures 
from both sides

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## niaz

Joe Shearer said:


> Sir, that is very far from correct. I have worked in the steel industry in India and abroad for 12 years, and have worked in every single kind of specialisation of a particular kind of product, uniquely in Indian industry. If you look for Bharat Forge and look for what they are doing, in conjunction with specialised manufacturers of steel billets and barrel blanks, you might get a different view of things.
> 
> I have no comment about Germany in WWII, but very many of those whom I knew were trained in Germany, in the best metallurgical industries there. When I read some stuff in some other post on this thread (not yours), I was aghast at the abysmal ignorance on display. On reading your present post, I can only reflect that for someone who for his age and service has displayed almost an encyclopaedic knowledge of matters military, this is a little lacking.
> 
> My apologies if I have spoken out of turn.




Hon Joe Shearer,

What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.

As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.

Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.

I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.

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## Joe Shearer

ali_raza said:


> half measures buddy
> or i must say desperate measures
> from both sides



I was joking; channeling an aggressive bhakt bent on death and destruction.



niaz said:


> Hon Joe Shearer,
> 
> What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.
> 
> As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.
> 
> Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.
> 
> I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.



Dear Niaz Sahib, 

I have never made any bones about my high regard for your interventions; it is an honour that you chose to write on this. How I wish there was a climate conducive to allow a free movement of technicians between our two countries; even - I know I am being foolish, given today's dire straits that one of us is in - a collaboration to explore space together, with the wonderful engineers and scientists cordially welcoming other south Asian nations and nationals to participate.

My sincere good wishes for this holy month, and I hope you and your near and dear ones are enduring our afflictions of disease with fortitude and in comfort.

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## Armchair

I think the 100 km range being discussed is for rockets fired through the gun. I also don't think India is a benign state only looking to defend itself. This statement falls flat on how the status of Kashmir was unilaterally changed and sabre rattling by Indian officials about taking back Pakistani Kashmir. 

Making basic grades of steel is one thing. Turning them into guns quite another. Going back in history, the British found that if they made canon balls by casting using fine graphite powder they could make smoother casts, which gave them a strategic advantage - giving them the ability to shoot their guns further out and lower gun wear and tear. 

Did it matter how good the steel of the canon balls were? Probably did but less so than the manufacturing method. If I had to guess, this was also the problem with the Turkish artillery imported - they just weren't tough enough - not because they were made with sub-standard steel, but because of the various treatments that the West has perfected over time and history. 

At the heart of this advantage of the West - which in their communities they mention - is the poor metallurgical intellectual maturity of the East. At the most basic level, our boys can go to the West and get a degree after memorizing notes, but few if any of them have a hands on "playing with the process". 

Just go on Youtube and you will find all kinds of white guys making videos about bullion, steel, metal works, from bubas to sophisticated sounding Europeans. There are no Muslim or Indian equivalents of this. You had recently a Texan in his garage figuring out how Muslims made Damascus blades (also known as blades from Hind, or blades of India) that were the renowned swords of the elite Ottoman Janissaries. 

These swords were not replicable until this buba figured it out. No one, for centuries could build them anymore. They would glow lightly in the dark and later research found nanotube construction. Known famously to cut through a falling silk scarf. And very likely a concept that gave rise to the Star Wars light saber. 

When you don't have that level of a culture of metallurgy, or even a remote culture of metallurgy (you'll almost never find a desi graduate doing his own metal works and having fun with it), you really don't have a competitive basis for metallurgical innovation. I would wager, you won't find a Masters degree holder actually playing around with his trade. 

You see, most of our graduates are trained from a young age to hate education but treat it as a social status. They earn degrees, often by rote learning, not because knowledge excites them but because their families and society expects them to get these degrees. These paper degrees really have little to no use for actually achieving technological advantage. 

If you look further, you'd find "Lord" Macauley's Minute on Indian Education, and some underpinnings on why our whole educational epistemology is messed up, which ultimately nips us intellectually from the bud. 

Anyways, my apologies for branching out.

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## ali_raza

Armchair said:


> I think the 100 km range being discussed is for rockets fired through the gun. I also don't think India is a benign state only looking to defend itself. This statement falls flat on how the status of Kashmir was unilaterally changed and sabre rattling by Indian officials about taking back Pakistani Kashmir.
> 
> Making basic grades of steel is one thing. Turning them into guns quite another. Going back in history, the British found that if they made canon balls by casting using fine graphite powder they could make smoother casts, which gave them a strategic advantage - giving them the ability to shoot their guns further out and lower gun wear and tear.
> 
> Did it matter how good the steel of the canon balls were? Probably did but less so than the manufacturing method. If I had to guess, this was also the problem with the Turkish artillery imported - they just weren't tough enough - not because they were made with sub-standard steel, but because of the various treatments that the West has perfected over time and history.
> 
> At the heart of this advantage of the West - which in their communities they mention - is the poor metallurgical intellectual maturity of the East. At the most basic level, our boys can go to the West and get a degree after memorizing notes, but few if any of them have a hands on "playing with the process".
> 
> Just go on Youtube and you will find all kinds of white guys making videos about bullion, steel, metal works, from bubas to sophisticated sounding Europeans. There are no Muslim or Indian equivalents of this. You had recently a Texan in his garage figuring out how Muslims made Damascus blades (also known as blades from Hind, or blades of India) that were the renowned swords of the elite Ottoman Janissaries.
> 
> These swords were not replicable until this buba figured it out. No one, for centuries could build them anymore. They would glow lightly in the dark and later research found nanotube construction. Known famously to cut through a falling silk scarf. And very likely a concept that gave rise to the Star Wars light saber.
> 
> When you don't have that level of a culture of metallurgy, or even a remote culture of metallurgy (you'll almost never find a desi graduate doing his own metal works and having fun with it), you really don't have a competitive basis for metallurgical innovation. I would wager, you won't find a Masters degree holder actually playing around with his trade.
> 
> You see, most of our graduates are trained from a young age to hate education but treat it as a social status. They earn degrees, often by rote learning, not because knowledge excites them but because their families and society expects them to get these degrees. These paper degrees really have little to no use for actually achieving technological advantage.
> 
> If you look further, you'd find "Lord" Macauley's Minute on Indian Education, and some underpinnings on why our whole educational epistemology is messed up, which ultimately nips us intellectually from the bud.
> 
> Anyways, my apologies for branching out.


and ironically its not limited to steel it’s everywhere 
the problem is youngsters r not given the flames in there bellies by elders to jump on the other side.
allama iqbal died crying and writing this very concept 
his eagle portry is all about doing something extra ordinary 
and no half measures

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## Basel

TF141 said:


> I guess the maximum calibre we use along LC is 130mm. Which was used today hence the casualties in Kupwara occured pretty deep.



If I m not wrong 155mm M-198s are also used when India take matters to 155mm caliber on LOC.



kursed said:


> Yes but India has introduced Dhanush to the theater now, so Pakistan will need to respond in kind or via some other way. I'd prefer guided projectiles at their FSBs for a one-time lesson.



What caliber it has and what it adds over Bofors they use??


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## peagle

niaz said:


> Hon Joe Shearer,
> 
> What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.
> 
> As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.
> 
> Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.
> 
> I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.



I have to take exception to this thinking of India as a historical nation, we apportion historical ownership of South Asian history to the modern state of India too readily.

Whilst I have no issue with the fact that India has a bigger industrial base, after all, it did inherit British India's industrial capacity, on which, it built with foreign help from the Europeans and the Soviets.

A sword or steel made at some point in history was made by the empire or Kingdom of that time, not by India, as represented in the form of the modern nation-state of India. India was a region, not a country, only post 1947 India is a country. it is an important differentiation that needs to be kept alive in this identity conscious world in which we live.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

peagle said:


> India was a region, not a country, only post 1947 India is a country. it is an important differentiation that needs to be kept alive in this identity conscious world in which we live.


I 100% agree with you.

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## nomi007

*PCL-181 is SH15 
 PCL-181 brings great improvement for PLA artillery troops
Source
http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2020-05/07/content_9808544.htm
Editor
Wang Xinjuan
Time
2020-05-07 10:31:47

The domestically developed PCL-181155mm wheeled vehicle-mounted howitzers are commissioned to an army brigade under the PLA Eastern Theater Command. (Photo/Courtesy of Weibo @ CNR guofangshikong) Recently, it has been widely reported that China's new generation of 155mm vehicle-mounted howitzers, the PCL-181, have been delivered to troops of a brigade under the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Eastern Theater Command in batches. This reveals both the renewal of the main equipment, and even the overall improvement of the authorization system, tactical thinking, and equipment system of the PLA Army artillery troops.
Faster in response
The PCL-181 currently delivered to the PLA Army artillery troops will be mainly used to replace the active PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzers and a small part of the remaining Type 59-1 130-mm towed cannons. Compared with the latter two, the PCL-181 features "fastness" as its most prominent technical advantage --- to be specific, its "fastness" in response, marching, and aiming.
First, its response is fast. Within three minutes, the PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzer can only complete the transition from marching state to combat state; while thanks to its integrated wheeled chassis and highly automated electromechanical hydraulic servo system, the PCL-181 can realize the whole process from parking to combat state, then to launching six projectiles, and finally to withdrawing and transferring. This means a qualitative leap for the tactics of the PLA Army artillery troops.
Second, its marching is fast. With the integration of wheeled chassis and artillery, the PCL-181 can reach the maximum design speed in marching, with no need to worry about the rollover accident caused by overspeed, which is hardly possible for the PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzer.
Third, its aiming is fast. The PCL-181 is equipped with the world-leading automatic fire control system (AFCS). Following the input of the target azimuth data, the vehicle-mounted fire control computer can automatically settle the shooting elements and automatically adjust the azimuth and height of the artillery. However, such element adjustments of the PL-66 rely entirely on manual operation.
Lighter and smaller
At present, the PLA Army artillery troops have already been equipped with the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzers. Why is the PCL-181 still needed?




The full combat weight of the PCL-181 vehicle-mounted howitzer is 25 tons, only about half compared with the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzer.(Photo/Courtesy of Weibo @ CNR guofangshikong) The PCL-181 has a full combat weight of 25 tons, only about half compared with the PLZ-05. Since there are certain restrictions on the total weight of vehicles on many bridges and highways, the PCL-181 is superior to such heavy-duty tracked vehicles as the PLZ-05 in terms of mobility. In addition, with a smaller overall size, the PCL-181 has no worries about "overrun"(the overall height exceeds 3.6 meters or overall width exceeds the train cabin) when transported by rail, and can get through almost all railway sections to reach a freight station nearest to the destination.
Besides, the PCL-181 weighs only 25 tons, which is just within the cargo capacity of China's Y-9 tactical transport aircraft. Each Y-9 tactical transport aircraft can carry one PCL-181, and as long as there are a sufficient number of transport aircraft groups, the rapid deployment of the organically assigned artillery troops as a whole within nearly a thousand kilometers can be realized. This will undoubtedly greatly improve the rapid reaction capability of the PLA Army.
In addition, the PCL-181 is more cost-effective with a lower price, so the procurement cost can be reduced to a considerable extent while ensuring equivalent firepower. Under the premise of controlling the procurement cost, it is possible to completely replace the old towed artilleries such as the Type 59-1 the PL-66, which are now active in quantity. In this way, the situation in which a variety of large-caliber artillery coexist in the equipment system of the PLA Army artillery units will be thoroughly changed: artillery of 130 mm and 152 mm calibers are to be completely eliminated, only with that of 122 mm and 155 mm calibers retained.
More flexible

The PCL-181 vehicle-mounted howitzer is equipped with the military high-mobility truck chassis, which make it good at long-distance mobility on road. It was reported that the service members of an Army brigade under the Eastern Theater Command just drove the PCL-181 to their camp after unloading at the freight station. However, when it came to receiving the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzers in the past, they had to carry them back with heavy-duty wheeled trailers.
According to statistics, the total mileage of China's expressway network has exceeded 100,000 kilometers at present. Therefore, the PCL-181 can quickly reach designated areas by using its wheeled chassis of long-distance rapid maneuverability in North China, East China, and South China where the expressway network is relatively dense. In addition, the PCL-181 is also superior to the PLZ-05 in terms of maneuverability and operational flexibility in mountainous areas, deserts, Gobi deserts, and plateaus.*


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## Affanakad0t.

Do we have turkish PANTER 155MM HOWITZER. WIKI SAYS WE PURCHASED IT IN 2008 09


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## niaz

peagle said:


> I have to take exception to this thinking of India as a historical nation, we apportion historical ownership of South Asian history to the modern state of India too readily.
> 
> Whilst I have no issue with the fact that India has a bigger industrial base, after all, it did inherit British India's industrial capacity, on which, it built with foreign help from the Europeans and the Soviets.
> 
> A sword or steel made at some point in history was made by the empire or Kingdom of that time, not by India, as represented in the form of the modern nation-state of India. India was a region, not a country, only post 1947 India is a country. it is an important differentiation that needs to be kept alive in this identity conscious world in which we live.




Honorable Sir,

It is a historical fact that iron/steel manufacture in the Indian subcontinent is very old. There would be hardly anyone visiting Delhi, a Muslim in particular, who has not gone to see the Qutub Minar. Right next to it is the ‘Asoka ki lat’ or the iron pillar of Asoka. This means that India blacksmiths were making Iron pillar during the 3rd century B.C.

You can buy Shahnameh Firdousi from large book shops or even try to read it online; you will surely come across mention of Indian Swords may times; clearly indicating that Indian armament was known in Persia during 10th Century AD. By the way, by Hindustan Firdausi, means the North-Western subcontinent as he mentions 'Qanauj' as the seat of the Indian King.

Incidentally, the first ordinance factory in Indian was established in 1712 when the Dutch Ostend Company established a Gun Powder factory in 1712 at Ichhapur, West Bengal. Currently, there are 41 ordinance factories in India. (https://ofb.gov.in/ )

This is no doubt true that present-day India is different from old Hindustan. Nevertheless, Iron ore mines of ancient times happen to be in the regions that are now part of modern India.

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## peagle

niaz said:


> Honorable Sir,
> 
> It is a historical fact that iron/steel manufacture in the Indian subcontinent is very old. There would be hardly anyone visiting Delhi, a Muslim in particular, who has not gone to see the Qutub Minar. Right next to it is the ‘Asoka ki lat’ or the iron pillar of Asoka. This means that India blacksmiths were making Iron pillar during the 3rd century B.C.
> 
> You can buy Shahnameh Firdousi from large book shops or even try to read it online; you will surely come across mention of Indian Swords may times; clearly indicating that Indian armament was known in Persia during 10th Century AD. By the way, by Hindustan Firdausi, means North-Western subcontinent as he mentions 'Qanauj' as the seat of the Indian King.
> 
> Incidentally, the first ordinance factory in Indian was established in 1712 when the Dutch Ostend Compo nay established a Gun Powder factory in 1712 at Ichhapur, West Bengal. Currently, there are 41 ordinance factories in India. (https://ofb.gov.in/ )
> 
> This is no doubt true that present-day India is different from old Hindustan. Nevertheless, Iron ore mines of ancient times happen to be in the regions that are now part of modern India.



It is heartening to know you are well-read, probably more than myself on this particular topic. but, if you read my reply, I never disputed your facts, in fact, I added to them and provided a reason why it is so. My contention was that your original argument was pitting India in comparison to Pakistan and you had used ancient history to justify your answers. 

My point was and is that historical India and modern India are two different entities and how they are to be used to prove a given point must be done with some considerations. You had blanketly given modern India a historical linkage that was not appropriate in your argument.

It is fair to say India has a history of metallurgy going back into its ancient past, but you cannot use that point when comparing it to Pakistan, because Pakistan also has a rich history in metallurgy going back into its own ancient past. The modern state of India is more advance than the modern state of Pakistan because it had inherited a more advanced industrial base at independence, whereas Pakistan did not have an industrial base at all at independence, nothing, zero, zilch, and other countries were very willing to help India far more than Pakistan with new technologies. This interpretation I think is fair and accurate.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Indian steel and Indian swords were very famous with Arabs even in times of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Hind was an exotic place for them. Still Hind/Pak is kinda exotic for Arabs. That's why some women were called Hind adding to their allure etc.


niaz said:


> Hon Joe Shearer,
> 
> What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.
> 
> As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.
> 
> Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.
> 
> I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.

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## niaz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Indian steel and Indian swords were very famous with Arabs even in times of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Hind was an exotic place for them. Still Hind/Pak is kinda exotic for Arabs. That's why some women were called Hind adding to their allure etc.



One of my Emirati colleagues had a daughter named Hind, on inquiry he told me it meant someone owning 100 camels (signifying wealth in old times). However, you could be right as I came across the word 'Muhannad' meaning a sword made in India; thus the name Hind could be related to Hind (India in Arabic).

There are also families with the surname 'Al'Hindi'. This refers to those who had been trading with India. One must not forget that trade relations between the subcontinent & Arabian Peninsula are very old. According to legends, the Cheramaan Juma Mosque in Kerala is said to have been built around 630 AD implying during Holy Prophet (PBUH) lifetime! Perhaps a member from Kerala could shed more light on it.

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## Armchair

FYI the reason Damascus blades, those used by the elite Ottomans, were called blades of Hind, was because the peculiar iron ore (which had a certain impurity that made them extra special) were mined in the Subcontinent and exported - for a long time perhaps hundreds of years. They then went through a special (proprietary) process to turn them into the famous Damascus blades. 

When those iron ore mines eventually dried up, the technology was lost due to disuse (and other deeper sociological, economic, political and fundamentally theological factors).

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## Blacklight

niaz said:


> According to legends, the Cheramaan Juma Mosque in Kerala is said to have been built around 630 AD implying during Holy Prophet (PBUH) lifetime! Perhaps a member from Kerala could shed more light on it.



I'm so full of sin, that I am ashamed to comment on this, What I heard was that the King saw the moon split, and then (traveled to Arabia maybe) and accepted Islam.

Only the Lord knows best.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> If I m not wrong 155mm M-198s are also used when India take matters to 155mm caliber on LOC.


122mm does the job too.

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## Cuirassier

an estimate on the current Towed and SP Artillery pieces held and the potential regiments they could hold:

Mountain Artillery - 22 regiments (potential)
116 x OTO Italian 105mm in 6 regiments
300 x M101 105mm in 16 regiments

Field Artillery - 32 regiments (potential)
400 x Type 54 122mm in 22 regiments
179 x D-30 Chinese 122mm in 10 regiments

Medium Artillery - 29 regiments (potential)
100 x M46 130mm in 5 regiments
260 x Type 59/59-1 130mm in 14 regiments
60 x M114 Silver Barrel 155mm in 3 regiments
124 x M198 155mm in 7 regiments

Heavy Artillery - 2 regiments (potential)
26 x M115 203mm in 2 regiments

SP Medium Arty - 21 regiments (potential)
152 x M109A2 155mm in 8 regiments
115 x M109A5 155mm in 6 regiments
122/130 x M109L 155mm in 7 regiments

SP Heavy Arty - 3 regiments (optional)
40 x M110 203mm in 3 regiments

induction in process:

236 x SH-15 155mm in 13 regiments (potential)

Will be interesting to see which pieces will be retired after this induction. could be M114 and M46; phasing out of M115 too?

will appreciate feedback from sources with insight.

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## Signalian

If HIT produced its own 105mm or 155mm, then standardisation would have helped modernise Artillery. Also more formations could be brought up in war since reservists are called for desk jobs in HQs and active personnel managing desk jobs in peacetime are sent forward for combat.

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## ali_raza

why our artillery is stuck in past
this day and age armies r focused on mbrls to bring maximum firepower in shortest time with accuracy


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## vi-va

Cuirassier said:


> an estimate on the current Towed and SP Artillery pieces held and the potential regiments they could hold:
> 
> Mountain Artillery - 22 regiments (potential)
> 116 x OTO Italian 105mm in 6 regiments
> 300 x M101 105mm in 16 regiments
> 
> Field Artillery - 32 regiments (potential)
> 400 x Type 54 122mm in 22 regiments
> 179 x D-30 Chinese 122mm in 10 regiments
> 
> Medium Artillery - 29 regiments (potential)
> 100 x M46 130mm in 5 regiments
> 260 x Type 59/59-1 130mm in 14 regiments
> 60 x M114 Silver Barrel 155mm in 3 regiments
> 124 x M198 155mm in 7 regiments
> 
> Heavy Artillery - 2 regiments (potential)
> 26 x M115 203mm in 2 regiments
> 
> SP Medium Arty - 21 regiments (potential)
> 152 x M109A2 155mm in 8 regiments
> 115 x M109A5 155mm in 6 regiments
> 122/130 x M109L 155mm in 7 regiments
> 
> SP Heavy Arty - 3 regiments (optional)
> 40 x M110 203mm in 3 regiments
> 
> induction in process:
> 
> 236 x SH-15 155mm in 13 regiments (potential)
> 
> Will be interesting to see which pieces will be retired after this induction. could be M114 and M46; phasing out of M115 too?
> 
> will appreciate feedback from sources with insight.


China use 122mm 155mm only, as well as 120mm mortar. I think 130, 105 is outdated, too many caliber is bad for Army.
105 mm can be replaced by 120 mortar. The rest can be consolidated by 122mm and 155mm. Other caliber will fade out. That's the future.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Reddit › WarCollege › comments
conventional artillery vs MLRS?
^^^^^
Guys check out the above on reddit.
It is a very interesting look at MLRS how they can wreak havoc on enemy. Modern MRLS with basic INS/GPS and range extension kit rockets can also do danger close/pin point(with a margin of error just like arty of course) strike missions.


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## Oldman1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Reddit › WarCollege › comments
> conventional artillery vs MLRS?
> ^^^^^
> Guys check out the above on reddit.
> It is a very interesting look at MLRS how they can wreak havoc on enemy. Modern MRLS with basic INS/GPS and range extension kit rockets can also do danger close/pin point(with a margin of error just like arty of course) strike missions.


Its good to have both artillery and MLRS.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Reddit › WarCollege › comments
> conventional artillery vs MLRS?
> ^^^^^
> Guys check out the above on reddit.
> It is a very interesting look at MLRS how they can wreak havoc on enemy. Modern MRLS with basic INS/GPS and range extension kit rockets can also do danger close/pin point(with a margin of error just like arty of course) strike missions.


Its good to have both artillery and MLRS.

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## Dazzler

Blacklight said:


> I'm so full of sin, that I am ashamed to comment on this, What I heard was that the King saw the moon split, and then (traveled to Arabia maybe) and accepted Islam.
> 
> Only the Lord knows best.







__





The Kerala king who embraced Islam


It did not take much time to spread the news in Malabar, through Arab merchants, about the emergence of a prophet named Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Makkah and his religion, Islam. When the moon was split into two as a miracle from Prophet Muhammad, many people inside and outside the Arabian...




www.arabnews.com

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## kursed

Cuirassier said:


> an estimate on the current Towed and SP Artillery pieces held and the potential regiments they could hold:
> 
> Mountain Artillery - 22 regiments (potential)
> 116 x OTO Italian 105mm in 6 regiments
> 300 x M101 105mm in 16 regiments
> 
> Field Artillery - 32 regiments (potential)
> 400 x Type 54 122mm in 22 regiments
> 179 x D-30 Chinese 122mm in 10 regiments
> 
> Medium Artillery - 29 regiments (potential)
> 100 x M46 130mm in 5 regiments
> 260 x Type 59/59-1 130mm in 14 regiments
> 60 x M114 Silver Barrel 155mm in 3 regiments
> 124 x M198 155mm in 7 regiments
> 
> Heavy Artillery - 2 regiments (potential)
> 26 x M115 203mm in 2 regiments
> 
> SP Medium Arty - 21 regiments (potential)
> 152 x M109A2 155mm in 8 regiments
> 115 x M109A5 155mm in 6 regiments
> 122/130 x M109L 155mm in 7 regiments
> 
> SP Heavy Arty - 3 regiments (optional)
> 40 x M110 203mm in 3 regiments
> 
> induction in process:
> 
> 236 x SH-15 155mm in 13 regiments (potential)
> 
> Will be interesting to see which pieces will be retired after this induction. could be M114 and M46; phasing out of M115 too?
> 
> will appreciate feedback from sources with insight.


SH-15 alongside ERFB-BB/RA (50 Km, 30Km) and laser-guided shells have been integrated.

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## KaiserX

Pakistan has a decent sized artillery fleet. More focused should be given to self propelled artillery and MBRL systems on the other hand and also artillery tracking radars.

- Pakistan is acquiring 236 SH-15 self propelled artillery and has already acquired 90 SH-1s a few years back. Requirement is around 500 wheeled units.
- 200 pieced of heavy tracked artillery similar to the M-109 should also be acquired. On top of the current 389 M-109s and 60 M110s should be a 650 mechanized artillery units.
- Another acquisition of 100-150 heavy MBRLs similar to the A-100/Smerch. Currently Pakistan has around 70 M-100s total should be 200 units of large MBRLs
- Hundreds of units of small and truck sized artillery tracking radars to act as force multipliers in providing counter artillery battery

Would easily make up for current gaps in Pakistans artillery units providing mobile, Precise, and powerful firepower.

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## Signalian

KaiserX said:


> and has already acquired 90 SH-1s a few years back.


😐

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## Pandora

Signalian said:


> 😐


I think you mean to say

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> I'm so full of sin, that I am ashamed to comment on this, What I heard was that the King saw the moon split, and then (traveled to Arabia maybe) and accepted Islam.
> 
> Only the Lord knows best.


Yes this is what I have heard also. He was awake and saw it happen with his own eyes and was stunned. And as arabs used to come for trade in this region he inquired about it and he was told about Hazrat MUHAMMAD SAW. Than he decided to travel to Arabia.


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## Zulfiqar

Zulfiqar said:


> R&D work is also being done for an MLRS with range greater than A-100.
> 
> Don't have exact details but we might see a prototype in next 1-2 years.
> 
> *Success* will be with us.




@HRK @DESERT FIGHTER 

Read my signature and the word I used in the post.


Zulfiqar said:


> Yes, I hope so.
> 
> In previous post, I meant a weapon that can be shown to media under another kamiyab tujraba head. Other than that it is already here.



1st test during same period.

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## HRK

Zulfiqar said:


> @HRK @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Read my signature and the word I used in the post.
> 
> 
> 1st test during same period.


so I was right


HRK said:


> Version of Nasr with conventional warhead .... ??

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> so I was right



From the same strat org that is behind NASR.



All I can say for now. Rest as and when disclosed by ISPR.

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## Bilal.

Zulfiqar said:


> From the same strat org that is behind NASR.
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say for now. Rest as and when disclosed by ISPR.


So it’s indigenous/original product and not a local production of a Chinese system?

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## Zulfiqar

Bilal. said:


> So it’s indigenous/original product and not a local production of a Chinese system?



Same org is also responsible for A-100 local prod and one of the solid fueled missiles apart from NASR.

Commonality can be there but it is local effort. The org has been at it for years (as partially confirmed from my 2018 post).

Rest of the details will be obvious when images come out later on.

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## Bilal.

Zulfiqar said:


> Same org is also responsible for A-100 local prod and one of the solid fueled missiles apart from NASR.
> 
> Commonality can be there but it is local effort. The org has been at it for years (as partially confirmed from my 2018 post).
> 
> Rest of the details will be obvious when images come out later on.


That makes perfect sense. Leveraging technology from previous efforts both from indigenous and license production would be the right approach and satisfactory. If it was just another license production, it would have been a bit of a let down. Glad it’s not.

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## HRK

Zulfiqar said:


> Same org


'S' is the initial

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> 'S' is the initial


Same that makes the solid boosters of H SOWs?

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> 'S' is the initial



Enough hints for now sir but No.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347124088301563905

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zulfiqar said:


> @HRK @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Read my signature and the word I used in the post.
> 
> 
> 1st test during same period.



Yes I read the MODP yearbook @HRK posted aswell as your post. Regarding "Advanced MLRS".


Zulfiqar said:


> Same org is also responsible for A-100 local prod and one of the solid fueled missiles apart from NASR.
> 
> Commonality can be there but it is local effort. The org has been at it for years (as partially confirmed from my 2018 post).
> 
> Rest of the details will be obvious when images come out later on.


Dont think we produce the A-100 system but we do produce its rockets and have an overhauling facility.
Several times indians have mistaken ....

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## Zulfiqar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes I read the MODP yearbook @HRK posted aswell as your post. Regarding "Advanced MLRS".
> 
> Dont think we produce the A-100 system but we do produce its rockets and have an overhauling facility.
> Several times indians have mistaken ....



Yes, have heard the same i.e rockets only for A-100.

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## Zarvan

@PanzerKiel Sir what is latest on our Artillery project. Mainly of SH15 Artillery Gun.


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir what is latest on our Artillery project. Mainly of SH15 Artillery Gun.
> View attachment 710316


23 March parade is such a nice event, I always look forward to it each year..... Every year something new gets marched across....

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> 23 March parade is such a nice event, I always look forward to it each year..... Every year something new gets marched across....


Let's hope Corona doesn't rise

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## TsAr

PanzerKiel said:


> 23 March parade is such a nice event, I always look forward to it each year..... Every year something new gets marched across....


I hope its not postponed due to covid.

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## farooqbhai007

A-100s are well placed to tackle enemy , and more than enough.
Aside from Indian grads , they have 4 Pinaka Batteries/Regiments & 3 Smerch Regiments active , of these 3 Pinaka & 2 Smerch are based at Pakistani borders,

40 AD Smerch , Northen Punjab, India






41 AD, Southern Rajasthan, Full Regiment visible




all in all thats 12 x 3 = 36 Smerch launchers in active regiments, plus 6 in the Artillery training school.

For Pinaka we have 6 x 4 = 24 Pinaka launchers in active regiments plus unkown numbers in Training school.

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## Sine Nomine

Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.

Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.

Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.

Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
Shell weight would increase damage.
Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.
In longer run a single cal means that;

 Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency. 
Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.
Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
*UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN*



Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:

combat weight of 7680 kg,
field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.
Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
*Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:*

Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display 
 
B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:

34% increase in range
260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
330% increase in lethal area.
Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
No crew training required.
Small increase in total weight.
The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.
In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.





UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport







yugoimport.com




@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
@Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian

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## Vapour

farooqbhai007 said:


> A-100s are well placed to tackle enemy , and more than enough.
> Aside from Indian grads , they have 4 Pinaka Batteries/Regiments & 3 Smerch Regiments active , of these 3 Pinaka & 2 Smerch are based at Pakistani borders,
> 
> 40 AD Smerch , Northen Punjab, India
> View attachment 710574
> 
> 
> 41 AD, Southern Rajasthan, Full Regiment visible
> View attachment 710575
> 
> all in all thats 12 x 3 = 36 Smerch launchers in active regiments, plus 6 in the Artillery training school.
> 
> For Pinaka we have 6 x 4 = 24 Pinaka launchers in active regiments plus unkown numbers in Training school.



Does Pakistan have an equivalent to the BM Grads?


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## farooqbhai007

Vapour said:


> Does Pakistan have an equivalent to the BM Grads?


yea krl-122 with gids yarmook rockets with 45km range (compared to 40km indian grads ) and a new unkown 122mm system or maybe just a modernized krl-122 with digital fire control.

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## Inception-06

Sine Nomine said:


> Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
> It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
> With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
> Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.
> 
> Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
> is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
> Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.
> 
> Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.
> 
> Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
> Shell weight would increase damage.
> Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
> It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.
> In longer run a single cal means that;
> 
> Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
> This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency.
> Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
> In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.
> Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
> *UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN*
> 
> 
> 
> Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:
> 
> combat weight of 7680 kg,
> field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
> capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.
> Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
> *Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:*
> 
> Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
> Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
> Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
> New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
> New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
> New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
> Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display
> 
> B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
> Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:
> 
> 34% increase in range
> 260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
> 330% increase in lethal area.
> Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
> No crew training required.
> Small increase in total weight.
> The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
> Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.
> In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yugoimport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
> @Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian



I heard the Indian upgrade from 130mm to 155 was not successful, you have sources about successfully continuing of this program ?


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## Sine Nomine

Inception-06 said:


> I heard the Indian upgrade from 130mm to 155 was not successful, you have sources about successfully continuing of this program ?


There was upgunning contract between Bharat and Soltam in place in mid 2000, 180 pieces were upgraded under this project before it was terminated,that work was done in Bharat.Later around 2013 OFB restarted that program,in 2018 OFB won a Govt contract for upgunning of 300 M-46 pieces.It's known as OFB Sharang 155mm Arty uses a 45 cal barrel.

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## Inception-06

Sine Nomine said:


> There was upgunning contract between Bharat and Soltam in place in mid 2000, 180 pieces were upgraded under this project before it was terminated,that work was done in Bharat.Later around 2013 OFB restarted that program,in 2018 OFB won a Govt contract for upgunning of 300 M-46 pieces.It's known as OFB Sharang 155mm Arty uses a 45 cal barrel.



Maybe we have produced too much ammunition for the different artillery calibres, and it would be not economical! Question is the price of the upgrade programme, what to do with old ammunition?

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## Sine Nomine

Inception-06 said:


> Maybe we have produced too much ammunition for the different artillery calibres, and it would be not economical! Question is the price of the upgrade programme, what to do with old ammunition?


More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?
I hope when one would consider this,upgunning would be an obvious ans or a new system.
Regarding price as per serbs,this upgrade would cost 5 times less than a new system and mind that we have already greater no of 155's in service as compared to 130's.
That ammo can be probably sold to another state.

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## Inception-06

Sine Nomine said:


> More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?
> I hope when one would consider this,upgunning would be an obvious ans or a new system.
> Regarding price as per serbs,this upgrade would cost 5 times less than a new system and mind that we have already greater no of 155's in service as compared to 130's.
> That ammo can be probably sold to another state.



I agree but the Generals wouldn’t. May be because there will never be again a full scale war without nuclear weapons, between two nuclear states. If we would successfully capture Kashmir, the indians would nuclear us, the same we would do. Big weapon purchases are just to keep balance, but not to conquer India or liberate Kashmir. I guess that’s reason why they don’t invest in a rifle or artillery replacement program.

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## Sine Nomine

Inception-06 said:


> I agree but the Generals wouldn’t. May be because there will never be again a full scale war without nuclear weapons, between two nuclear states. If we would successfully capture Kashmir, the indians would nuclear us, the same we would do. Big weapon purchases are just to keep balance, but not to conquer India or liberate Kashmir. I guess that’s reason why they don’t invest in a rifle or artillery replacement program.


I think that's Bluff,since a nuke for a nuke policy is among all nuclear powers of world,it means that no one would risk a whole country for few thousand km².
Pakistan has budget issues,lot of money is going into debt servicing and for keeping PSM,PIA and PR afloat.


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## Signalian

Sine Nomine said:


> More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?


This is calculated before sending equipment into the deployment area. Then they are deployed in a manner so that they remain safe from CB fire of enemy. Mortars are easily transported over rough terrain and are used in good effect against enemy fire also. Range extending ammo can also be used.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> This is calculated before sending equipment into the deployment area. Then they are deployed in a manner so that they remain safe from CB fire of enemy. Mortars are easily transported over rough terrain and are used in good effect against enemy fire also. Range extending ammo can also be used.


This solely depends upon intel a commander has in hand.
We are talking here in context of IA Arty Modernisation goal 2027,which calls for only 155mm as main cal for every use.Looks like M777's are going to be main weapon on LOC and LAC,while other new guns are going to be used in plains.
Extended ammo both RAP and BB,won't make 130 to fire beyond 37000 meters while a 155mm gun cal 45 can fire Extended Range Full Bore - Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) upto 39,000 m.M777 can fire upto 40 km using guided ammo.
If they proceed with this plan as it's drawn,we would be outgunned by 2027.


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## Path-Finder

I thought a conversion programme was taking place to convert 130mm to 155mm? or was that just talk?

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## Signalian

Sine Nomine said:


> This solely depends upon intel a commander has in hand.


CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.


What kind of Calculation?


----------



## ziaulislam

Sine Nomine said:


> Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
> It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
> With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
> Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.
> 
> Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
> is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
> Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.
> 
> Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.
> 
> Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
> Shell weight would increase damage.
> Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
> It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.
> In longer run a single cal means that;
> 
> Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
> This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency.
> Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
> In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.
> Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
> *UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN*
> 
> 
> 
> Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:
> 
> combat weight of 7680 kg,
> field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
> capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.
> Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
> *Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:*
> 
> Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
> Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
> Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
> New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
> New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
> New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
> Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display
> 
> B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
> Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:
> 
> 34% increase in range
> 260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
> 330% increase in lethal area.
> Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
> No crew training required.
> Small increase in total weight.
> The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
> Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.
> In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yugoimport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
> @Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian


I agree a single standarad 155 gun should be brought

For light operations get a chopper and light 155mm gun

I think we should more focus on Self propelled guns. May be trying getting used ones from europe/usa EDA

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.


That's why they are called totay, because they are good memorising and calculations 😁

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## Signalian

Desert Fox 1 said:


> That's why they are called totay, because they are good memorising and calculations 😁


If by totay you mean parrots, then that goes in many domains, even technical. By the way, 'totay' when written in roman english gives out a totally different meaning on first look 


Sine Nomine said:


> What kind of Calculation?


Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.

@PanzerKiel can you fill in.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.
> 
> @PanzerKiel can you fill in.


If i am not wrong these things come much later and are related to operation of guns, survey section etc while we are solely talking about gun ranges.


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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> If by totay you mean parrots, then that goes in many domains, even technical. By the way, 'totay' when written in roman english gives out a totally different meaning on first look
> 
> Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.
> 
> @PanzerKiel can you fill in.


The battery command post (BCP) calculates the map bearing, range and angle of sight between the gun and the target and applies corrections to compensate for nonstandard conditions to produce predicted data. The predicted data is then placed onto the sights of the guns and to the projectile’s fuze.

The corrections applied to the map data are:
* Altitude Corrections.
* Correction of the Moment.
* Drift Corrections.
* Corrections for Rotation of the Earth.
* Non-Standard Projectile Correction. 
* Muzzle Velocity Corrections.
* Distribution Corrections.
* Corrections to Fuze Settings.

Crest clearance / safety for own troops deployed on ground is also important, for which projectile's path is also calculated. The path of the projectile when it has left the muzzle is determined by the following factors: 
* The muzzle velocity.
* The direction of the line of departure.
* Gravity.
* Resistance of the air.
* The weight and shape of the projectile.
* The spin of the projectile.
* The rotation of the earth.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> The battery command post (BCP) calculates the map bearing, range and angle of sight between the gun and the target and applies corrections to compensate for nonstandard conditions to produce predicted data. The predicted data is then placed onto the sights of the guns and to the projectile’s fuze.
> 
> The corrections applied to the map data are:
> * Altitude Corrections.
> * Correction of the Moment.
> * Drift Corrections.
> * Corrections for Rotation of the Earth.
> * Non-Standard Projectile Correction.
> * Muzzle Velocity Corrections.
> * Distribution Corrections.
> * Corrections to Fuze Settings.
> 
> Crest clearance / safety for own troops deployed on ground is also important, for which projectile's path is also calculated. The path of the projectile when it has left the muzzle is determined by the following factors:
> * The muzzle velocity.
> * The direction of the line of departure.
> * Gravity.
> * Resistance of the air.
> * The weight and shape of the projectile.
> * The spin of the projectile.
> * The rotation of the earth.


Sir we are doing good when it comes to self propelled artillery guns. We have M 109 in large numbers and we are most likely going for SH 15 and if we want more we have lots of options available. My worry is about towed artillery guns. SP are really good but in our LOC region still we need Towed Artillery Guns. Some of our guns are really old. We need new guns. I heard we tested AH 4 but were not fully satisfied. And in towed artillery guns there doesn't seem to have lot of options for us. So if you can please shed some light on it.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are doing good when it comes to self propelled artillery guns. We have M 109 in large numbers and we are most likely going for SH 15 and if we want more we have lots of options available. My worry is about towed artillery guns. SP are really good but in our LOC region still we need Towed Artillery Guns. Some of our guns are really old. We need new guns. I heard we tested AH 4 but were not fully satisfied. And in towed artillery guns there doesn't seem to have lot of options for us. So if you can please shed some light on it.


Speaking specifically regarding LOC....we have enough guns there, being old doesnt matter much, they fire accurate and the weight of the shell is also good.....range doesnt matter there because most of the enemy defences and static installations are within already our range and registered..... in the remaining the area is mostly civilian population which we do not target in any case.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> I agree a single standarad 155 gun should be brought
> 
> For light operations get a chopper and light 155mm gun
> 
> I think we should more focus on Self propelled guns. May be trying getting used ones from europe/usa EDA


IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.

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## PanzerKiel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.


Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.












__





New 105mm air transportable light towed howitzer from the Turkish Company MKE 10406163 | KADEX 2016 Official Online Show Daily News | Defence security military exhibition 2016 daily news category






www.armyrecognition.com





We have some good options in 105 MM category


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354071716935454721

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354072061422002176

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## araz

PanzerKiel said:


> Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.


Do you know what POF has done with regards to canon manufacturing? Do we/Did we have a programme or are we sleeping as usual. Help would be appreciated. 
A

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## PanzerKiel

araz said:


> Do you know what POF has done with regards to canon manufacturing? Do we/Did we have a programme or are we sleeping as usual. Help would be appreciated.
> A


We are not making any canons, barrels are being overhauled at base or regional workshops.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356529125914259458


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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.


If an offensive is going to take place then yes, but sitting at dug-in, defensive and stationary positions for decades, the comms and support lines are already being managed.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> We are not making any canons, barrels are being overhauled at base or regional workshops.


In end of 1990's there were around 20-25 (a def magazine quoted 30 also) artillery brigades supporting infantry and armor in PA. Even if few SPs are taken away, there were still a big number of towed regts. During a visit o HIT, there was a 105 mm L-7 gun (copy i think) placed on display which was being manufactured we were told. Considering that HIT claims," _GUN Factory has the capability of producing barrels ranging from 105mm to 203mm caliber_", and that 105 mm is rifled while 125 mm is smooth bore, then producing a howitzer of 105 mm or 155 mm caliber shouldn't be a big deviation, in fact much needed indigenization.

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## Basel

Where this gun stands compared to other option available for Pakistan in terms of SPAs?

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## PanzerKiel

Basel said:


> Where this gun stands compared to other option available for Pakistan in terms of SPAs?


Nora B52 was awesome in the trials as well. My personal favourite.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Nora B52 was awesome in the trials as well. My personal favourite.


Can we expect to see SH-15 on Pakistan day parade?

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Nora B52 was awesome in the trials as well. My personal favourite.


But SH-15 won the trials?

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Nora B52 was awesome in the trials as well. My personal favourite.


As initial plan was to buy two different Wheeled Artillery Guns. Any chance we may select two different types in coming months or years.

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> Nora B52 was awesome in the trials as well. My personal favourite.


isnt the one in the vid the czech DANA M2 SpGH , called as the DITA SpGH , successor to DANA M1

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> isnt the one in the vid the czech DANA M2 SpGH , called as the DITA SpGH , successor to DANA M1


Yes of course, sorry I wasn't referring to this as NORA B52.... just wanted to mention that NORA was there in the trials as well.

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## Path-Finder

Denel G6!

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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


> Denel G6!


Has PA choosen it? Strange but Good choice.Has good range and mobility. Has it veen selected along with SH-15?
Also did you see it at the parade?

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## Path-Finder

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Has PA choosen it? Strange but Good choice.Has good range and mobility. Has it veen selected along with SH-15?
> Also did you see it at the parade?


I mentioned it because it fits the needs very well. or checks all the boxes.

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## Ghost 125

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Has PA choosen it? Strange but Good choice.Has good range and mobility. Has it veen selected along with SH-15?
> Also did you see it at the parade?


hmmmm....NO

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## syedakm

Do we have any intel on if Pakistan ever bought Chinese SH-1 122mm SPAs. Global Security and few other websites have mentioned PA got 90 SH-1s referencing SIPRI, but I haven't been able to find anything.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Denel G6!


Sorry bro won't happen. 

South African stuff requires too much investment because it has a high upside and lots of benefits for us in the long-term. Instead, we'll take out a loan and buy 300 units of some existing system, and like, never add to it.

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## vi-va

Path-Finder said:


> Denel G6!


Denel G6 is $3,272,000 while 46 ton. Rate of fire: 4 round/min, 2 round/min sustained.

Very bad choice.

South Africa rivals are just some guerilla, rebellions, while India is not.

46 tons weight vs 25 tons, totally different bridge and road adaptability. Not to mention desert area.

edit:
and by the way, the extra armor helps, but not very helpful against terminal-phase guided munition like below

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sorry bro won't happen.
> 
> South African stuff requires too much investment because it has a high upside and lots of benefits for us in the long-term. Instead, we'll take out a loan and buy 300 units of some existing system, and like, never add to it.


Well put. No long term thinking - Your latest articles on Quwa hit the nail on the head of the malaise.

Mentality to get the toys for boys but not how to construct them from basic building blocks for future to stand on own two feet and run.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379080006689828864

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## ghazi52



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## Abid123

Well K-9 Thunder seems like a good option for the Pakistani Army?

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## truthfollower

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 731903
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 731904


@PanzerKiel 
what this guy watching in the left corner? 2nd picture.


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## PanzerKiel

truthfollower said:


> @PanzerKiel
> what this guy watching in the left corner? 2nd picture.


It's an equipment to make sure all the guns are given the same data , pointing towards the same target.

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## khanasifm

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379080006689828864



Artillery and airforce yes 

Let’s leave it at that

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## Primus

khanasifm said:


> Artillery and airforce yes
> 
> Let’s leave it at that


Too bad for you

Without Allah they wouldnt have been any sort of victory for Pakistan. In fact Pakistan would have not been here without Allah. Let's leave it at that

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## Signalian

Which SP Howitzer will replace M-109s when the time comes ?

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## Blacklight

Signalian said:


> Which SP Howitzer will replace M-109s when the time comes ?


Maybe PLZ-45, Hanwha K-9 / Turkish clone T-155 Firtina, OR change in doctrine and MLRS + wheeled howitzers?

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> Which SP Howitzer will replace M-109s when the time comes ?


I doubt that time will be soon since most modern SPs offer too less improvements as compared to our M109s so they are not worth the dollars. Also we have atleast parity if not an edge as far as artillery is concerned and hence it is not in our priority list


Blacklight said:


> Maybe PLZ-45, Hanwha K-9 / Turkish clone T-155 Firtina,


PLZ-45 is quite similar to m109s while the K9s have already been procured by IA so I think we won't go for it. BTW won't it be better to upgrade our M109s to A7 or similar level.



Blacklight said:


> wheeled


What about our southern Punjab and Sindh areas since that is where most of our tracked SP is depl and wheeled might not be that suitable for the soft sands. Thus wheeled SPs might be procured only in limited numbers for northern punjab are.

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## Blacklight

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I doubt that time will be soon since most modern SPs offer too less improvements as compared to our M109s so they are not worth the dollars. Also we have atleast parity if not an edge as far as artillery is concerned and hence it is not in our priority list


True



Desert Fox 1 said:


> PLZ-45 is quite similar to m109s while the K9s have already been procured by IA so I think we won't go for it. BTW won't it be better to uograde our M109s.


There is a limit to how much they can be upgraded, and despite overhauls, old eqpt becomes maintenance intensive.



Desert Fox 1 said:


> What about our southern Punjab and Sindh areas since that is where most of our tracked SP is depl and wheeled might not be that suitable for the soft sands. Thus wheeled SPs might be procured only in limited numbers for northern punjab are.


Technology has improved alot, wheeled SPH's are nearly there. The biggest advantage is their rapid mobility.

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## iLION12345_1

The M109s aren’t going anywhere for a good while still, they’ll stay at least till the current options on the market aren’t that relevant either, so PA will likely go for something entirely new by then.
The Wheeled SP induction is still gonna happen sooner or later…SH-155…

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## Signalian

@iLION12345_1 @Desert Fox 1 

Wordings - "when the time comes". 
And SH-15 is wheeled, a tracked option could be a suitable replacement. This also points towards HIT making a gun or using a platform as well as a future Turkish or Chinese option. A5 hasn't been upgraded to A6 Paladin, so technology wise it needs to keep up, not every upgrade is to match India but to suit own doctrines and inter-operability. 10-15 years ahead, technology might improve even further.

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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> @iLION12345_1 @Desert Fox 1
> 
> Wordings - "when the time comes".
> And SH-15 is wheeled, a tracked option could be a suitable replacement. This also points towards HIT making a gun or using a platform as well as a future Turkish or Chinese option. A5 hasn't been upgraded to A6 Paladin, so technology wise it needs to keep up, not every upgrade is to match India but to suit own doctrines and inter-operability. 10-15 years ahead, technology might improve even further.


Yes, I meant that by the time Our M109A5s are ready to be replaced, the current options on the market will also be 10-15 years old, so we will likely go for a system that hasn’t been developed yet. I’m hoping for a local one too. locally upgrading our M109s with Italian or Turkish support is also an option, the K9 and T-155 don’t stray too far from the same basic design of the M109. Turkey made its T-155 based off the K-9s, which were in turn based off older M109s, Pakistan can pursue something similar a few years down the line especially if our industry keeps improving, there’s already work being done on artillery guns at HIT if MoDP yearbooks are to be believed.
This will keep costs down and keep logistics easy. PA definitely has a need for tracked Howitzers as well as wheeled ones, any artillery gun we make can be used in both SP and towed roles.

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## vi-va

Blacklight said:


> True
> 
> 
> There is a limit to how much they can be upgraded, and despite overhauls, old eqpt becomes maintenance intensive.
> 
> 
> Technology has improved alot, wheeled SPH's are nearly there. The biggest advantage is their rapid mobility.


China will upgrade the PLZ-52. It will be a huge upgrade I suppose.

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## Blacklight

vi-va said:


> China will upgrade the PLZ-52. It will be a huge upgrade I suppose.


Do keep us posted.

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## vi-va

Blacklight said:


> Do keep us posted.


PLZ-52







All new chassis and turret. I believe there are other major upgrades as well.













New Chinese 155mm self-propelled howitzer spotted on public roads


Chinese latest 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzer has been spotted being towed on a trailer. The new self-propelled howitzer reportable developed by the People's Liberation Army of China to replace the PLZ-05. Local sources reported that a new artillery gun system designed to provide...




defence-blog.com

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## Affanakad0t.

What happened to our SH-15 Deal?

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## Viper27

Passed a column of at least 10 of these coming towards Lahore on the motorway yesterday. Very poor picture quality and since I am not an artillery expert I don’t know what kind of gun this is.

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## Raja Porus

Viper27 said:


> Passed a column of at least 10 of these coming towards Lahore on the motorway yesterday. Very poor picture quality and since I am not an artillery expert I don’t know what kind of gun this is.


Most probably an M198.
Though pictures posting pictures is fine but please do not mention their location and especially their destinations
Btw I think I saw these in Rawalpindi, from where they moved towards the location you specified, however their div markings were different.

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## Viper27

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Most probably an M198.
> Though pictures posting pictures is fine but please do not mention their location and especially their destinations
> Btw I think I saw these in Rawalpindi, from where they moved towards the location you specified, however their div markings were different.



I thought a few times before sharing it. The reason I did was because the boys were all resting at a service station with hundreds of passengers in plain sight..the exact location I won’t share but it doesn’t really make any difference because everybody there was taking pictures. Not everyday you come across a convoy of big guns on the motorway

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## iLION12345_1

@PanzerKiel B52 and G6 SPs in Bahawalpur again, more testing? Or are they from before?

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## PanzerKiel

iLION12345_1 said:


> @PanzerKiel B52 and GL-5 SPs in Bahawalpur again, more testing? Or are they from before?


I prefer to stay a bit quiet nowadays, because so much is happening around.... Security of information is much more important than breaking the news.


iLION12345_1 said:


> @PanzerKiel B52 and GL-5 SPs in Bahawalpur again, more testing? Or are they from before?


... And then, you haven't seen all of them yet....

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## iLION12345_1

PanzerKiel said:


> I prefer to stay a bit quiet nowadays, because so much is happening around.... Security of information is much more important than breaking the news.
> 
> ... And then, you haven't seen all of them yet....


Understood Sir, thank you for the response.

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## Akh1112

iLION12345_1 said:


> @PanzerKiel B52 and G6 SPs in Bahawalpur again, more testing? Or are they from before?



theyve been there for a while

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## iLION12345_1

Akh1112 said:


> theyve been there for a while


Some Movement again with them recently from what I’ve heard, that’s why I asked. I know they were tested before.


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## Bilal.

iLION12345_1 said:


> @PanzerKiel B52 and G6 SPs in Bahawalpur again, more testing? Or are they from before?


G6 or T5? We were testing T5 last time.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> G6 or T5? We were testing T5 last time.


Correct, my bad. Just thought “South African howitzer” and G6 was the first one to come to mind.

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## Primus

I thought we got sh15s? Did that turn out to be false or is testing still going on?

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Correct, my bad. Just thought “South African howitzer” and G6 was the first one to come to mind.


Is it same weapon system which was first showcased in Ideas in 2016?

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Is it same weapon system which was first showcased in Ideas in 2016?


Yes, and it was the front runner for the PA wheeled artillery procurement competition before the SH15 was given more interest I believe.

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## Zarvan

Huffal said:


> I thought we got sh15s? Did that turn out to be false or is testing still going on?


Even if we induct them we may never announce them. Or announce them after months or year.


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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> Even if we induct them we may never announce them. Or announce them after months or year.


Yes our policies of telling about new inductions have changed in the past few yeas , but the 2nd phase of trials is indeed happening , with SH15 , T5 & Nora B52 and others taking part in it but so far none has been selected for production.

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yes our policies of telling about new inductions have changed in the past few yeas , but the 2nd phase of trials is indeed happening , with SH15 , T5 & Nora B52 and others taking part in it but so far none has been selected for production.


Trials were completed long ago


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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> Trials were completed long ago


new trials are happening again it has been confirmed , it seems PA was not satisfied , and hence this time more systems are taking part in trials,

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## Bilal.

farooqbhai007 said:


> new trials are happening again it has been confirmed , it seems PA was not satisfied , and hence this time more systems are taking part in trials,


Hope is the newest Alaksandar from Serbia. And hopefully 25 liter chamber.

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> new trials are happening again it has been confirmed , it seems PA was not satisfied , and hence this time more systems are taking part in trials,


any idea about the participating countries & competing artillery systems ... ?


----------



## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> any idea about the participating countries & competing artillery systems ... ?


no info so far on which new systems are participating but the 3 systems from 1st trials the SH15 , Denels T5 & Nora B52 have been confirmed to be participating based on visual evidence,

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> no info so far on which new systems are participating but the 3 systems from 1st trials the SH15 , Denels T5 & Nora B52 have been confirmed to be participating based on visual evidence,


thnx


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## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> thnx


Another reason for new trials is because PA has changed some of the requirements , added some new ones that it wants to be present on its howitzers.

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> new trials are happening again it has been confirmed , it seems PA was not satisfied , and hence this time more systems are taking part in trials,


@PanzerKiel Sir is it true ?

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## denel

farooqbhai007 said:


> Another reason for new trials is because PA has changed some of the requirements , added some new ones that it wants to be present on its howitzers.


interesting, what are these new requirements?


----------



## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir is it true ?


I asked him earlier, you can see the response :p


denel said:


> interesting, what are these new requirements?


Apparently a fully automated loading system and remote firing capabilities.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> I asked him earlier, you can see the response :p
> 
> Apparently a fully automated loading system and remote firing capabilities.


Can you post the link

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## denel

iLION12345_1 said:


> I asked him earlier, you can see the response :p
> 
> Apparently a fully automated loading system and remote firing capabilities.


That is what i had suspected - i had raised it long back as the chinese was seriously lacking on this capability as well as shoot/schoot capability not to mention ground clearing - it is pathetically low.
Another capability which may be missing along the lines of remote firing was the ability to receive sensor telemetry from remote stations

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Can you post the link







__





Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions


True There is a limit to how much they can be upgraded, and despite overhauls, old eqpt becomes maintenance intensive. Technology has improved alot, wheeled SPH's are nearly there. The biggest advantage is their rapid mobility. China will upgrade the PLZ-52. It will be a huge upgrade I suppose.



defence.pk




post #1689

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## iLION12345_1

denel said:


> That is what i had suspected - i had raised it long back as the chinese was seriously lacking on this capability as well as shoot/schoot capability not to mention ground clearing - it is pathetically low.
> Another capability which may be missing along the lines of remote firing was the ability to receive sensor telemetry from remote stations


That makes a lot of sense, might be why no system was picked in the first trials, Hopefully we see some results this Time. T5 and B-52 K2 seem like promising systems, however with Chinese ones, they’re often willing to upgrade them if they don’t get picked in the first time trials (VT-4s and F7PGs come to mind…), so those might still be on the cards too with added capability.


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## denel

iLION12345_1 said:


> That makes a lot of sense, might be why no system was picked in the first trials, Hopefully we see some results this Time. T5 and B-52 K2 seem like promising systems, however with Chinese ones, they’re often willing to upgrade them if they don’t get picked in the first time trials (VT-4s and F7PGs come to mind…), so those might still be on the cards too with added capability.


that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough. 

This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.

No offence meant.

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## Primus

denel said:


> that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.
> 
> This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.
> 
> No offence meant.


Or it could be because China has been a very reliable partner over time, they upgrade their weaponry to our likings and it might actually be better than the stuff the Serbians and SA are offering.

But time will only tell.


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## denel

Huffal said:


> Or it could be because China has been a very reliable partner over time, they upgrade their weaponry to our likings and it might actually be better than the stuff the Serbians and SA are offering.
> 
> But time will only tell.


The problem is far graver .... we have commented on it many times in other threads.


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## iLION12345_1

denel said:


> that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.
> 
> This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.
> 
> No offence meant.


None taken at all, I understand what you mean, I’ve seen you and others talk about it before, it’s a concern I have too.

But on the other hand one has to consider some real factors that make them favor China too, like the fact that whatever China is gives is probably cheaper and easier to get with physical supply chains present and that there’s no threat of their industry not delivering, which may be an issue with a smaller supplier like Serbia or Czechia. With both my aforementioned examples China went out of their way to create something that was closer to what Pakistan needed, and both of these systems were such that Pakistani already had limited options due to its funds and foreign relations. I don’t still think it justifies the issue, it just makes the choice easier for PA (or rather China makes themselves the best option, changing their systems in ways some other countries might not, which maybe also points to a lack of confidence in China for their own systems, making them Pakistan specific because they know Pakistan will buy, while other countries try to meet a global standard) hence trapping them into this cycle of Chinese systems. (Something seen more with the PA and less with PAF/PN)

However going into the future Pakistans options are only increasing and not decreasing, and starting with this procurement I hope they see that and don’t just buy a Chinese system.

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.
> 
> This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.
> 
> No offence meant.



T-80UD trials. Our guys were like please put this in it oh and that as well. 

Ukrainians were like, Man who are these people. Peak summers touching 48 degree celcius😂

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## denel

Dazzler said:


> T-80UD trials. Our guys were like please put this in it oh and that as well.
> 
> Ukrainians were like, Man who are these people. Peak summers touching 48 degree celcius😂
> 
> View attachment 754592
> 
> 
> View attachment 754592
> View attachment 754593


that is typical soviet/russian/ukranian mentality... i did not see any vodkha with them .

No joke... out of mmabatho airbase, i was asked to help out with repairs to their comms system; i went over - of course they being far from home - had over 200 bottles of their brand.... After fixing their comms, they gave me 10 bottles... no english of course. i said nah - i dont drink. they offered to give me a joy ride on the an72. highlight of my day . my friend who heads the airbase had told them of me as i had experience with soviet radio equipment.

morale of the story... you can take a russian/ukrainian out of their motherland but you cannot take a soviet out of them

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## farooqbhai007

Pakistan army to modernise Artillery corps: COAS


The Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Qamar Javed Bajwa, on Friday visited the Artillery Centre and interacted with several officers and troops. According




nation.com.pk

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## denel

iLION12345_1 said:


> None taken at all, I understand what you mean, I’ve seen you and others talk about it before, it’s a concern I have too.
> 
> But on the other hand one has to consider some real factors that make them favor China too, like the fact that whatever China is gives is probably cheaper and easier to get with physical supply chains present and that there’s no threat of their industry not delivering, which may be an issue with a smaller supplier like Serbia or Czechia. With both my aforementioned examples China went out of their way to create something that was closer to what Pakistan needed, and both of these systems were such that Pakistani already had limited options due to its funds and foreign relations. I don’t still think it justifies the issue, it just makes the choice easier for PA (or rather China makes themselves the best option, changing their systems in ways some other countries might not, which maybe also points to a lack of confidence in China for their own systems, making them Pakistan specific because they know Pakistan will buy, while other countries try to meet a global standard) hence trapping them into this cycle of Chinese systems. (Something seen more with the PA and less with PAF/PN)
> 
> However going into the future Pakistans options are only increasing and not decreasing, and starting with this procurement I hope they see that and don’t just buy a Chinese system.


Absolutely appreciate your frankness. this is what I enjoy about this forum, we can exchange great ideas insights (minus the noise of chinese bots on their section)

this is exactly the issue - Let us take material sciences - in the education institutions, there will be engineering or research programs but how many can take it to next level because you dont have actual industries that can make use of it. Alloys and new materials are key for very high pressure blasts. In terms of artillery - let us for the moment forget about alloys - let us focus on basebleed projectiles. has anyone been looking to see propellent or further improvisation that can occur or even at a much lower level e.g. 76mm or 105mm level. This kind of research needs to start with baby feet. I dont see that happening. That is what makes it worrisome; people want the end product but dont realise what is going into it. Similarly on aircraft front - if you look at Super M... did we see any innovation in terms of next levels; in past 40 yrs; it just moved from one version to next - in fact i digress - your hockey sticks are more innovative in using composites vs PAC - just food for thought (Malik is my fav stick).

I would have loved to see based technology - let us take the much useless old barrels of older UK pounders and be used to research base projectiles.

Fortune favours those who are bold and willing to take inniatives; if there is an idea - it needs to be kept in wraps and added to priority of R&D project works. This is where the decoupling of R&D needs to happen. Monies need to be added for this work. Take CSIR or even Turkish institutions; they are getting a lot of funding from the govt; that is where incubation hubs are.... they are not in dodo brained general controlled institutions - you cannot think or have free thought - you are just a bot.

I digressed. I will write to put a small write up later on some work i did for G5/G6 long back.

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## iLION12345_1

denel said:


> Absolutely appreciate your frankness. this is what I enjoy about this forum, we can exchange great ideas insights (minus the noise of chinese bots on their section)
> 
> this is exactly the issue - Let us take material sciences - in the education institutions, there will be engineering or research programs but how many can take it to next level because you dont have actual industries that can make use of it. Alloys and new materials are key for very high pressure blasts. In terms of artillery - let us for the moment forget about alloys - let us focus on basebleed projectiles. has anyone been looking to see propellent or further improvisation that can occur or even at a much lower level e.g. 76mm or 105mm level. This kind of research needs to start with baby feet. I dont see that happening. That is what makes it worrisome; people want the end product but dont realise what is going into it. Similarly on aircraft front - if you look at Super M... did we see any innovation in terms of next levels; in past 40 yrs; it just moved from one version to next - in fact i digress - your hockey sticks are more innovative in using composites vs PAC - just food for thought (Malik is my fav stick).
> 
> I would have loved to see based technology - let us take the much useless old barrels of older UK pounders and be used to research base projectiles.
> 
> Fortune favours those who are bold and willing to take inniatives; if there is an idea - it needs to be kept in wraps and added to priority of R&D project works. This is where the decoupling of R&D needs to happen. Monies need to be added for this work. Take CSIR or even Turkish institutions; they are getting a lot of funding from the govt; that is where incubation hubs are.... they are not in dodo brained general controlled institutions - you cannot think or have free thought - you are just a bot.
> 
> I digressed. I will write to put a small write up later on some work i did for G5/G6 long back.



I wish I could add something to this but you said all I wanted to and more, much better than I ever could have.

Pakistans military “industry” has just been settled at whatever the military needs from them. The bare minimum. And so are their foreign acquisitions. There’s no future proofing…even if we excuse the lack of progress so far, at least whatever they’ve made has given them some experience, the Al-Khalid, the JF-17, whatever else, I don’t see that experience being used to do enough research, because they feel like the research is too basic and won’t get them anything, but if no one ever starts then there’s no future in any of these projects.

The frankly non-ideal solution I see for this is the next generation of people reaching the top, it will be a slow process, even more so than what it has been so far, but eventually someone will get up there that will be more visionary and realize this, they’ll start it off and things will follow. I just hope it doesn’t come so late that the second cycle of Pakistani defense production starts just as the first one is going right now.

it’s like healthcare, caring about preventive healthcare, making yourself healthy so you never have to worry about being sick and going to the doctor, or never caring about preventive healthcare and then getting really sick and having to go to a doctor. Eventually Pakistan is gonna get sick, be it sanctions, geopolitical issues, whatever. Pakistan is not preparing for that so far, as it wasn’t prepared when sanctions hit it the first time and it was forced to make some progress in the 90s and early 2000s. We can’t have that, but we’re holding out on hope, at least there’s small glimmers of it in projects like AZM.

Thank you for your insight though. It is a discussion forum after all, and these are the kinds of opinions we need.

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## Inception-06

This are the italian ones !

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## denel

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 754921


any basebleed ammunition used in these one?

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## Bilal.

denel said:


> any basebleed ammunition used in these one?


I don’t see why not when POF makes ERFB-BB and basebleed DP-ICM rounds:





Also notice MACS charges.

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## Dazzler

Bilal. said:


> I don’t see why not when POF makes ERFB-BB and basebleed DP-ICM rounds:
> 
> View attachment 754924
> 
> Also notice MACS charges.



Thanks to license arrangements with Poongsan and Nexter.

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## Bilal.

Dazzler said:


> Thanks to license arrangements with Poongsan and Nexter.


Yes ERFB-BB thanks to Nexter and DPICM from Poongsan. There was also a rocket assisted 120mm mortar, most likely indigenous, tested in late 90s or early 2000s.

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## Inception-06

Italy's Leonardo Defence Systems upgraded M109L SP artillery system

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## Raja Porus

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 755346
> 
> 
> 
> Italy's Leonardo Defence Systems upgraded M109L SP artillery system


1st SP, what a great regiment.

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 1st SP, what a great regiment.


Sorry but 139SP is the one for me

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411243192414924800

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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411243192414924800


K-9

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## ali_raza

why not we have 52 caliber arty guns


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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> why not we have 52 caliber arty guns


PA is currently testing 5 or more such systems for acquisition, wait a few months

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> PA is currently testing 5 or more such systems for acquisition, wait a few months


wow nice
btw why we didn’t got the whole lot of italian guns 
they are cool stuff for dirt prices

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> wow nice
> btw why we didn’t got the whole lot of italian guns
> they are cool stuff for dirt prices


We already did…they had 221 guns, not all of them would be in the same condition. PA got more than half of them. PA has more than 500 M109 systems. A5, modernized A2s (being further modernized to A5) and M109L (Italy)

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> PA is currently testing 5 or more such systems for acquisition, wait a few months


Is South African G6 one of those ?

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## Bilal.

iLION12345_1 said:


> PA is currently testing 5 or more such systems for acquisition, wait a few months


I think the trend now in the world would be towards 54cal guns.

If PA goes for 54Cal with 25litre chamber. That would give it a range of 70ish Km with RAP rounds.

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Is South African G6 one of those ?


Better, T5-52. Unsure if G6 is there.
Chinese SH-15
Serbian Nora B52 (my personal favorite is this one in the K2 variant).
Maybe Czech DANA and Ukrainian 2S22 is also present, in the previous trials another Chinese SP was present too, the SH-1A-155.


Bilal. said:


> I think the trend now in the world would be towards 54cal guns.
> 
> If PA goes for 54Cal with 25litre chamber. That would give it a range of 70ish Km with RAP rounds.


Almost all modern SPs are 52 caliber. However the Nora B52 K2 does have a 25 liter chamber. Going with something very few nations in the world currently operate would make logistics and options very narrow.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> PA is currently testing 5 or more such systems for acquisition, wait a few months


PA will selecting one or more


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> PA will selecting one or more


Just one most likely, no need to get multiple systems In this case, they’re competing against each other.

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> We already did…they had 221 guns, not all of them would be in the same condition. PA got more than half of them. PA has more than 500 M109 systems. A5, modernized A2s (being further modernized to A5) and M109L (Italy)


the ones we got were crispy new barely used 
i think we got 90 pieces we should have got the whole kot


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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> the ones we got were crispy new barely used
> i think we got 90 pieces we should have got the whole kot


122-130 pieces from Italy. More were offered, Maybe we got them too. Not all were in such good condition and not all were needed, as I said PA has nearly 500 such Guns + 60~ M110A2s.

Add to that the new wheeled SPGs that are coming, considering the first trials requirements were for nearly 250 systems, we can assume we will get at this many guns, but most likely more than this. 

comapre this to India which operates fewer than 200 SPG systems…PA has always had the edge in SP systems, I guess part of that is down to doctrine, as india has a similar major edge in towed artillery systems.

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> 122-130 pieces from Italy. More were offered, Maybe we got them too. Not all were in such good condition and not all were needed, as I said PA has nearly 500 such Guns + 60~ M110A2s.
> 
> Add to that the new wheeled SPGs that are coming, considering the first trials requirements were for nearly 250 systems, we can assume we will get at this many guns, but most likely more than this.
> 
> comapre this to India which operates fewer than 200 SPG systems…PA has always had the edge in SP systems, I guess part of that is down to doctrine, as india has a similar major edge in towed artillery systems.


why don’t we go the route of a6 or a7 
which has 52 caliber and mrsi options


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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> why don’t we go the route of a6 or a7
> which has 52 caliber and mrsi options


Do you think the US would sell those to us a day after putting us on a list of countries that uses child soldiers…? US is pissed at us because they couldn’t bully us into giving them what they want.

Also just to be clear, the M109A7 is a very poor system for the modern era, so are the systems derived from it like the K9 and the AS90, while they do improve a bit on its ROF issue (all M109s have a sustained ROF of 1 and a maximum of 4) because it’s fundamental design is outdated and it’s low range issue remains. The most all three of those can shoot to is 40KM, not a big improvement over M109A5 (34KM) Meanwhile something like the modern Russian 155mm SPG can shoot as far as 80KM at 8 RPM, while the German one can shoot at 10 RPM upto 67 KM, the chinese one can shoot upto 100km at 10 RPM.

It’s a good thing we’re not getting the M109A7 or any derivative of it but are getting a modern SPG which will have similar ranges and ROFs to the above mentioned systems, why PA wants wheeled over tracked, well that’s gonna be down to doctrine, I’ll trust the experts that decided on that. I’ll go as far as to say india made a mistake buying K-9s…

For PAs use the M109s are a good system as we have a large number of them and we got many of them for cheap. The enemy has a small number of not-much-better Guns which will be surpassed by PAs next purchase anyways. Just like the Armored core, the core of artillery has outplayed the Indian army despite having less funds. Seems Those generals are good for something after all 🤣

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> Do you think the US would sell those to us a day after putting us on a list of countries that uses child soldiers…? US is pissed at us because they couldn’t bully us into giving them what they want.
> 
> Also just to be clear, the M109A7 is a very poor system for the modern era, so are the systems derived from it like the K9 and the AS90, while they do improve a bit on its ROF issue (all M109s have a sustained ROF of 1 and a maximum of 4) because it’s fundamental design is outdated and it’s low range issue remains. The most all three of those can shoot to is 40KM, not a big improvement over M109A5 (34KM) Meanwhile something like the modern Russian 155mm SPG can shoot as far as 80KM at 8 RPM, while the German one can shoot at 10 RPM upto 67 KM, the chinese one can shoot upto 100km at 10 RPM.
> 
> It’s a good thing we’re not getting the M109A7 or any derivative of it but are getting a modern SPG which will have similar ranges and ROFs to the above mentioned systems, why PA wants wheeled over tracked, well that’s gonna be down to doctrine, I’ll trust the experts that decided on that. I’ll go as far as to say india made a mistake buying K-9s…
> 
> For PAs use the M109s are a good system as we have a large number of them and we got many of them for cheap. The enemy has a small number of not-much-better Guns which will be surpassed by PAs next purchase anyways. Just like the Armored core, the core of artillery has outplayed the Indian army despite having less funds. Seems Those generals are good for something after all 🤣


we pakistanis are intelligent lol
but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> we pakistanis are intelligent lol
> but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
> and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight


One that was publicly acknowledged was the A100.









Pakistan Army inducts A-100 rocket in MLRS of its Artillery Corps


RAWALPINDI: Pakistan Army inducted A-100 Rocket in Multiple Launch Rocket System of its Corps of Artillery.Inter Services Public Relations said “A- 100 Rocket has been indigenously developed...




www.thenews.com.pk

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## Great Janjua

Just a little observation.From my point,Why don't we induct ifvs,There are many roles an IFV can play,But one that suits this conversation the most.Is artillery,IFVS can be manipulated in many ways,One of the many possibilities is, hunter killer,And Would you believe it, Artillery support,Along with troop transport.And that is all in just one package, quite remarkable,To say the least. But our generals are stuck in the 1940s,With their battle taxis concept so who am I to say anything.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> One that was publicly acknowledged was the A100.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army inducts A-100 rocket in MLRS of its Artillery Corps
> 
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan Army inducted A-100 Rocket in Multiple Launch Rocket System of its Corps of Artillery.Inter Services Public Relations said “A- 100 Rocket has been indigenously developed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenews.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 759434
> 
> View attachment 759435
> 
> View attachment 759436


does it fire thermoberic projectiles?

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## Great Janjua

Yes.Its a modern artillery piece,Of course it has all the bell's,And whistle's.


ali_raza said:


> does it fire thermoberic projectiles?

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## Sayfullah

iLION12345_1 said:


> Almost all modern SPs are 52 caliber. However the Nora B52 K2 does have a 25 liter chamber. Going with something very few nations in the world currently operate would make logistics and options very narrow.



What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> we pakistanis are intelligent lol
> but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
> and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight


There are other factors apart from range too, as mentioned ROF is one, mobility is another. Range may not be the most important metric for PA but it’s obviously going to be in consideration. Plus the added requirements of automatic loading systems and remote firing and data receiving capabilities make it so that only some of the best systems will fill PAs needs. SH-15 btw does not have any of these added capabilities and according to Denels assessment, very low ground clearance as well, however knowing China I fully expect them to upgrade their System for PA so it can compete with the others.

and to add to the heavy MLRS, we are making A100 locally as black light said, we also have Guided heavy MLRS in the Fatah series. Fatah-1 was unveiled a while back…


Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?


To keep it simple, Caliber Is the length of the barrel, 54 being longer than 52. Longer gun means more range usually.

the liters are to measure chamber volume, the place where the ammo and charge will be loaded into before firing. Its measured in liters, more chamber volume means larger ammo and charges can be loaded and fired.

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## iLION12345_1

Great Janjua said:


> Just a little observation.From my point,Why don't we induct ifvs,There are many roles an IFV can play,But one that suits this conversation the most.Is artillery,IFVS can be manipulated in many ways,One of the many possibilities is, hunter killer,And Would you believe it, Artillery support,Along with troop transport.And that is all in just one package, quite remarkable,To say the least. But our generals are stuck in the 1940s,With their battle taxis concept so who am I to say anything.


This has been discussed a lot on the forum and it’s simply down to doctrine and cost. If PA could afford to buy thousands and thousands of Modern IFVs to carry all the troops Into battle, they surely would. But that’s simply too expensive, and if PA just buys a few then it can’t change its doctrine and those few won’t fit anywhere into the doctrine which involves lightly armed APCs dropping off troops near objectives and not being used in firefights. If you look around the world The modern IFV concept only works for small, rich countries or ones with alot of money.
India is a poor example in this case because their massive fleet of IFVs are older BMP2 models that won’t be much better protected or armed than our APCs carrying ATGMs, remote HMGs and RBS-70 systems. But since their doctrine is based off IFVs they went for those, and our doctrine is based off APCs so we went for those (PA is testing modern APCs for acquisition).

I don’t mean to be rude but kindly think a little for yourself before you start commenting negatively on PAs generals. If you’re willing to pay for all the IFVs please contact them so they army can follow your vision. It’s obviously not an ideal solution but we don’t have unlimited funds and options. PA does the best it can with what it has.

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## PanzerKiel

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?


Simply put, if there is 52 caliber gun of 155 mm Caliber..... You multiply 52 with 155 and then you'll get the length of the barrel itself.

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> Simply put, if there is 52 caliber gun of 155 mm Caliber..... You multiply 52 with 155 and then you'll get the length of the barrel itself.


sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to


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## Bossman

ali_raza said:


> sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to


Tactical Nuclear Shell


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## ali_raza

Bossman said:


> Tactical Nuclear Shell


isn’t we operate nasr for that

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> isn’t we operate nasr for that


True, I personally am not of the opinion, that it fits into our nuclear doctrine any more. Maybe as a last line of defence.

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## PanzerKiel

ali_raza said:


> sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to





ali_raza said:


> sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to


It packs a big enough punch... Primary role being counter bombardment and neutralizing enemy gun positions along with interdiction and harassing fire.

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to


Hitting something with a 155mm projectile and hitting something with a 203mm projectile has some differences. It’s not the most modern system anymore but it doesn’t hurt to have a few of them for special purposes.


Bossman said:


> Tactical Nuclear Shell


we do not use those. It has a 18-23 kilometer range…30 with rocket projectiles.

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> Hitting something with a 155mm projectile and hitting something with a 203mm projectile has some differences. It’s not the most modern system anymore but it doesn’t hurt to have a few of them for special purposes.
> 
> we do not use those. It has a 18-23 kilometer range…30 with rocket projectiles.


after reading this comment i went into search 
found a old clip about artillery regiments of pakistan army 
some major was saying 203 mm direct hit on a tank can destroy even the best armor is it true?


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## Bossman

iLION12345_1 said:


> Hitting something with a 155mm projectile and hitting something with a 203mm projectile has some differences. It’s not the most modern system anymore but it doesn’t hurt to have a few of them for special purposes.
> 
> we do not use those. It has a 18-23 kilometer range…30 with rocket projectiles.


Not any more, but before NASR a nuclear shell was developed

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## Raja Porus

ali_raza said:


> after reading this comment i went into search
> found a old clip about artillery regiments of pakistan army
> some major was saying 203 mm direct hit on a tank can destroy even the best armor is it true?


Of course.
Or atleast it will destroy its optics/tracks.
I've heard that if it hits near the tank, it can cause it to topple(though I doubt a modern one).


ali_raza said:


> sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to


When one sees it firing from close up, only then can he realize the destruction it causes. However its rate of fire and large crew is bit if an issue.

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> after reading this comment i went into search
> found a old clip about artillery regiments of pakistan army
> some major was saying 203 mm direct hit on a tank can destroy even the best armor is it true?


He’s correct, the speed and the mass of a 203mm projectile fired directly at a tank will tear stuff to pieces just due to the sheer explosive force (these are explosive HE projectiles, artillery guns like this don’t carry AP)
The optics, tracks, gun and other external systems won’t survive the blast. However an outward explosion like these (not a shaped charge) won’t break through the armor itself, it’s meant to do area damage and not penetrating damage.

Artillery crews are trained for direct-fire situations too, in case the enemy somehow breaks through the front lines and reaches the artillery guns before they can retreat, they will fire at the enemy tanks directly. Any 155-203MM gun in this case will do devastating damage in a direct hit.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Artillery crews are trained for direct-fire situations too


Pakistani artillery especially and they are fond of it as well.


iLION12345_1 said:


> armor itself, it’s meant to do area damage and not penetrating damage.


Artillery shells especially of such a large caliber can achieve a mobility kill or can destroy the main gun (Firepower kill)
or can destroy optics (mission kill). Any one of these (or all of them together) will effectively reduce the tank to a box of metal and all these weaknesses can be exploited afterwards

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## Ghost 125

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I've heard that if it hits near the tank, it can cause it to topple(though I doubt a modern one).


this is based on an actual incident, when a sherman was "bodily lifted" due to an 8 inch shell falling close to its tracks, during battle of zafarwal in 1965. tank belonged to 2 Lancer of indian army. its unlikely tht any tank other thn sherman (heavier and modern) will recieve the same treatment. but without a doubt a direct hit from 93 kg shell on any tank will knock it out of action.

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## Raja Porus

Ghost 125 said:


> 8 inch shell


Our artillery outclassed anything that India could present especially due to these guns. They felt hopeless against them and that's why artillery earned the greatest amount of respect both by friend and foe in 65.
The aggressiveness with which we used our artillery including mortars at the most critical times proved to be the deciding factor,often.

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## Raja Porus

Ghost 125 said:


> but without a doubt a direct hit from 93 kg shell on any tank will knock it out of action


However it will decimate the bmp2s which AFAIK are lighter than Shermans.

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## ali_raza

Desert Fox 1 said:


> However it will decimate the bmp2s which AFAIK are lighter than Shermans.


pure aggression

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## Hassan Guy



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## Dazzler

Hassan Guy said:


> View attachment 764667


Desperate times call for desperate measures.

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## bananarepublic

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Pakistani artillery especially and they are fond of it as well


First time I'm hearing about it. Soviets were extremely aggressive in their use of artillery in direct-fire. 
Neither US or British are fond of such use of artillery, an organic development of tactics in Pakistan army. 
Wondering what are the basic philosophy and tactics on how arty is used by our army


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## Great Janjua

I think our artillery procurement plans are on the same page as our Rifle replacement program,Time wasted yet nothing has been finalized what a joke.


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## iLION12345_1

Great Janjua said:


> I think our artillery procurement plans are on the same page as our Rifle replacement program,Time wasted yet nothing has been finalized what a joke.


The first trials didn’t prove satisfactory that’s why, PA added new requirements to the second trials and made them much stricter, second trials started not more than a month ago. It does take time, so give it some time. It will come. We can’t buy 6 things at once either, money has to be considered.

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## Inception-06

bananarepublic said:


> First time I'm hearing about it. Soviets were extremely aggressive in their use of artillery in direct-fire.
> Neither US or British are fond of such use of artillery, an organic development of tactics in Pakistan army.
> Wondering what are the basic philosophy and tactics on how arty is used by our army



Artillery in direct fire was employed and mastered first by the German Wehrmacht against the Soviet mass attacks of Tank during operation Barbarossa.

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## bananarepublic

Inception-06 said:


> Artillery in direct fire was employed and mastered first by the German Wehrmacht against the Soviet mass attacks of Tank during operation Barbarossa.


Soviets had integrated the idea of direct fire even before Barbarossa or WW2 all the way from company level to divisional level. 
Germans only realized effectiveness of direct fire during campaign against the Czech tank and later on the more Armored French tank. They realized after these campaigns of the effectiveness of artillery against tanks. That is the reason they started to put more and more heavier guns on the older panzer I and II chasis. Those were sporadic use and you are right that they mastered the working against the USSR.

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## Sifar zero

Hassan Guy said:


> View attachment 764667

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## Raja Porus

Inception-06 said:


> Artillery in direct fire was employed and mastered first by the German Wehrmacht against the Soviet mass attacks of Tank during operation Barbarossa.





bananarepublic said:


> Soviets had integrated the idea of direct fire even before Barbarossa or WW2 all the way from company level to divisional level.
> Germans only realized effectiveness of direct fire during campaign against the Czech tank and later on the more Armored French tank. They realized after these campaigns of the effectiveness of artillery against tanks. That is the reason they started to put more and more heavier guns on the older panzer I and II chasis. Those were sporadic use and you are right that they mastered the working against the USSR.


It was Rommel who first used the Flak 88mm anti-aircraft guns as anti-tank weapons in Arras,France against the English tanks. It was the the last major counter attack by the allies in Western Europe during the invasion of France. The plan of the allies was to attack at the over extended and vulnerable flanks of German forces (especially Rommel's 7th panzer division). The brits were to attack from north while the French from south to form a pincer, but French weakened couldn't muster up the forces and were unable to reach in time. The Allied tank force was reduced to more than half due to French absence and they had only 88 Matilda tanks. Running out of time, the brits decided to commit this outnumbered outfit. The Matilda tank had a frontal armour of 78 mm, impenetrable to all German weapons. The British tanks kept advancing against the German positions and the situation became so dire that Rommel himself had to rush there to take command. Seeing the futility of the German AT weapons he ordered the AA guns to fire at the Matilda. The Flaks were able to penetrate the Matilda's armour easily and the day was saved. Had the Brits infantry support or French tanks the German offensive mihht had been rolled back.
Rommel employed this tactic in North Africa as well. He used his tanks to lure the enemy armour into the trap laid by infantry with 88mm flaks. As much as people adore Rommel for his armoured tactics he should be credited more for the way in which he used his tanks and Infantry i.e combined arms warfare.

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## JPMM

I have allready said that direct-fire of M109s in those hedge houses/buildings of Urban places makes a diference. Its Portuguese Standard Operation Procedure in Mech formations.
There you will blow those traaps, and kill those snipers, MGs, nests, ATGMs that make your first casualties on Urban assault.
The morale diference its huge.

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> It was Rommel who first used the Flak 88mm anti-aircraft guns as anti-tank weapons in Arras,France against the English tanks. It was the the last major counter attack by the allies in Western Europe during the invasion of France. The plan of the allies was to attack at the over extended and vulnerable flanks of German forces (especially Rommel's 7th panzer division). The brits were to attack from north while the French from south to form a pincer, but French weakened couldn't muster up the forces and were unable to reach in time. The Allied tank force was reduced to more than half due to French absence and they had only 88 Matilda tanks. Running out of time, the brits decided to commit this outnumbered outfit. The Matilda tank had a frontal armour of 78 mm, impenetrable to all German weapons. The British tanks kept advancing against the German positions and the situation became so dire that Rommel himself had to rush there to take command. Seeing the futility of the German AT weapons he ordered the AA guns to fire at the Matilda. The Flaks were able to penetrate the Matilda's armour easily and the day was saved. Had the Brits infantry support or French tanks the German offensive mihht had been rolled back.
> Rommel employed this tactic in North Africa as well. He used his tanks to lure the enemy armour into the trap laid by infantry with 88mm flaks. As much as people adore Rommel for his armoured tactics he should be credited more for the way in which he used his tanks and Infantry i.e combined arms warfare.



Where you read that ? Book or digital Media ? Just asking, because when I was younger I had to read everything from books, internet was not available and established like now, for pakdefence, I had to go library to get access for 1 hour free Internet.

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## Raja Porus

Inception-06 said:


> Where you read that ? Book or digital Media ? Just asking, because when I was younger I had to read everything from books, internet was not available and established like now, for pakdefence, I had to go library to get access for 1 hour free Internet.


Sir it is part of my interest so there is no particular source. I use books, internet,pdfs and documentaries
Btw I also have the pdf of the Rommel Papers, Manstein's lost Victories and Guderian Panzer Leader and other books if you or someone else wants.

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## bananarepublic

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Sir it is part of my interest so there is no particular source. I use books, internet,pdfs and documentaries
> Btw I also have the pdf of the Rommel Papers, Manstein's lost Victories and Guderian Panzer Leader and other books if you or someone else wants.


Someone should create a thread to bring together all of these resources so that other user could learn from them

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## Great Janjua

It's pin-drop silence here it would be terrible if someone ruined it.

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## iLION12345_1

Great Janjua said:


> It's pin-drop silence here it would be terrible if someone ruined it.


All in due time. Both SPs and Towed guns are coming sooner or later.

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## Great Janjua

iLION12345_1 said:


> All in due time. Both SPs and Towed guns are coming sooner or later.


Peace of mind, finally. Now let's get back to slumber.

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## iLION12345_1

Great Janjua said:


> Peace of mind, finally. Now let's get back to slumber.


The reason we do not hear much about PAs procurements as compared to say IAs is because PA likes to stay very quiet.

In India they make their intentions to buy a new weapon clear before they even ask the relevant companies to send them in for testing, and to add on top of that, they start acting like the system is now already in service. If you ask them, they’ve had S400 in service for a few years already because they expressed their intentions of buying it, while the reality is that they won’t have in operational for a couple of years more.

in Pakistan, the first time we hear about a weapon is when the military decides that it’s time to send a message. By this point the talks, the trials and usually even the induction and operationalization already complete. And we basically never heard about the first few stages of this unless someone reveals it on a platform like this forum. PA has had HQ-9P for a couple of years now yet nobody even knew. 

Otherwise if we look at the time taken from “intention to operation”, PA does it much faster than IA.

PA has been testing both towed and SP artillery, in fact they’ve had multiple trials at this point. They could pick a gun, order it and have it in service and we wouldn’t even hear about it until we’re meant to. So rest assured, the systems are coming, so is everything else the PA has planned. Maybe they’re already here too.
Why spoil a surprise and lose an advantage though

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## Great Janjua

iLION12345_1 said:


> The reason we do not hear much about PAs procurements as compared to say IAs is because PA likes to stay very quiet.
> 
> In India they make their intentions to buy a new weapon clear before they even ask the relevant companies to send them in for testing and to add on top of that, they start acting like the system is now already in service. If you ask them, they’ve had S400 in service for a few years already because they expressed their intentions of buying it, while the reality is that they won’t have in operational for a couple of years more.
> 
> in Pakistan, the first time we hear about a weapon is when the military decides that it’s time to send a message. By this point the talks, the trials and usually even the induction and operationalization already complete. And we basically never heard about the first few stages of this unless someone reveals it on a platform like this forum. PA has had HQ-9P for a couple of years now yet nobody even knew.
> 
> Otherwise if we look at the time taken from “intention to operation”, PA does it much faster than IA.
> 
> PA has been testing both towed and SP artillery they’ve had multiple trials at this point. They could pick a gun, order it and have it in service and we wouldn’t even hear about it until we’re meant to. So rest assured, the systems are coming, so is everything else the PA has planned. Maybe they’re already here too.
> Why spoil a surprise and lose an advantage though


True. This also explains protocols the army has put in place for showing training videos online. In the past shows like mahaaz have dealt significant damage to the ways our forces operate and train these videos were studied leading to alter of tactics in enemy indoctrination, especially in their special forces.

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## Zarvan

HIT told about the artillery gun they have developed but they didn't showed any picture. I really hope they reveal the Artillery Gun soon

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> HIT told about the artillery gun they have developed but they didn't showed any picture. I really hope they reveal the Artillery Gun soon


Has been seen in satellite images, PA didn’t want it to be publicized before they had done trials on it, in case they liked it and bought it. You know how they are with the secrecy of weapons they purchase.
Here’s the gun at HITs own trials before it would be send off to the army.

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## pakpride00090

Great Janjua said:


> True. This also explains protocols the army has put in place for showing training videos online. In the past shows like mahaaz have dealt significant damage to the ways our forces operate and train these videos were studied leading to alter of tactics in enemy indoctrination, especially in their special forces.



Enemy watch these shows ?

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## Riz

iLION12345_1 said:


> All in due time. Both SPs and Towed guns are coming sooner or later.


What is the status of our home made Towed gun when we are going to induct after trails ??


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## iLION12345_1

iLION12345_1 said:


> Has been seen in satellite images, PA didn’t want it to be publicized before they had done trials on it, in case they liked it and bought it. You know how they are with the secrecy of weapons they purchase.
> Here’s the gun at HITs own trials before it would be send off to the army.
> View attachment 786020





Riz said:


> What is the status of our home made Towed gun when we are going to induct after trails ??


No idea. Only the military knows. They haven’t gotten to the artillery modernizations yet, only testing has been done, if they have picked the guns then we won’t know until induction or after it. As for the local gun, the plus side is that it can be modified and improved by HIT as needed, so there’s a good chance we’ll see it in service.

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## Thorough Pro

your statement is factually incorrect. readup



bananarepublic said:


> First time I'm hearing about it. Soviets were extremely aggressive in their use of artillery in direct-fire.
> Neither US or British are fond of such use of artillery, an organic development of tactics in Pakistan army.
> Wondering what are the basic philosophy and tactics on how arty is used by our army


field trials take more than a year as the equipment is tested in all geographical locations in all types of extreme weather.



iLION12345_1 said:


> The first trials didn’t prove satisfactory that’s why, PA added new requirements to the second trials and made them much stricter, second trials started not more than a month ago. It does take time, so give it some time. It will come. We can’t buy 6 things at once either, money has to be considered.


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## Sayfullah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451228238345383944

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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451228238345383944


No official confirmation as of yet, but we will get it soon, if PA has infact picked SH-15, they have either gotten the upgrades they wanted on it or lowered their requirements to go along with the cheaper prices.
Though I still hope they haven’t picked the Chinese system for once, given all the other Chinese weaponry they’ve bought, it makes sense for them to get the system which will easily integrate into the others.

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## ghazi52



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## Bilal.

iLION12345_1 said:


> No official confirmation as of yet, but we will get it soon, if PA has infact picked SH-15, they have either gotten the upgrades they wanted on it or lowered their requirements to go along with the cheaper prices.
> Though I still hope they haven’t picked the Chinese system for once, given all the other Chinese weaponry they’ve bought, it makes sense for them to get the system which will easily integrate into the others.


Is SH15 the export version of PCL181?


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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> Is SH15 the export version of PCL181?


Yes.


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## Bilal.

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes.


I thought PCL181 is an excellent system. But you are suggesting buying it is a compromise?


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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> I thought PCL181 is an excellent system. But you are suggesting buying it is a compromise?


It doesn’t have a fully automatic loading system (semi-automatic) and it lacks proper remote operating capabilities as PLA doesn’t consider them necessary for its doctrine. The other systems PA was testing had them and PA did seem to be wanting both of them. However in the basic attributes such as the Range, accuracy and mobility of the system, it is excellent. Even better than the others at times due to its lighter weight, it’s also cheaper due to the lack of the Aforementioned capabilities. It’ll be interesting to see if PA added them as it did with the VT-4 or bought the stock system.

At the time of the first trials however VT-4 hadn’t been inducted and Pantsir was still on the cards, now with the Chinese MBT in service and the Chinese SHORAD likely to come, it makes a lot more sense to buy the SH-15 due to its interoperability with the other systems. Plus the cheaper cost will mean we can get more of them.

Either way, it will be a good upgrade to PAs artillery capabilities if purchased, and if rumors are to be believed, there’s another system from the west coming too, The point about “remote operation capabilities” is important in that regard. The fully-automatic loader can be overlooked given how much bulkier it can make these guns.

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## Reddawn

iLION12345_1 said:


> It doesn’t have a fully automatic loading system (semi-automatic) and it lacks proper remote operating capabilities as PLA doesn’t consider them necessary for its doctrine. The other systems PA was testing had them and PA did seem to be wanting both of them. However in the basic attributes such as the Range, accuracy and mobility of the system, it is excellent. Even better than the others at times due to its lighter weight, it’s also cheaper due to the lack of the Aforementioned capabilities. It’ll be interesting to see if PA added them as it did with the VT-4 or bought the stock system.
> 
> At the time of the first trials however VT-4 hadn’t been inducted and Pantsir was still on the cards, now with the Chinese MBT in service and the Chinese SHORAD likely to come, it makes a lot more sense to buy the SH-15 due to its interoperability with the other systems. Plus the cheaper cost will mean we can get more of them.
> 
> Either way, it will be a good upgrade to PAs artillery capabilities if purchased, and if rumors are to be believed, there’s another system from the west coming too, The point about “remote operation capabilities” is important in that regard. The fully-automatic loader can be overlooked given how much bulkier it can make these guns.



Which system from the West is rumoured to be coming?


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## vi-va

iLION12345_1 said:


> It doesn’t have a fully automatic loading system (semi-automatic) and it lacks proper remote operating capabilities as PLA doesn’t consider them necessary for its doctrine. The other systems PA was testing had them and PA did seem to be wanting both of them. However in the basic attributes such as the Range, accuracy and mobility of the system, it is excellent. Even better than the others at times due to its lighter weight, it’s also cheaper due to the lack of the Aforementioned capabilities. It’ll be interesting to see if PA added them as it did with the VT-4 or bought the stock system.
> 
> At the time of the first trials however VT-4 hadn’t been inducted and Pantsir was still on the cards, now with the Chinese MBT in service and the Chinese SHORAD likely to come, it makes a lot more sense to buy the SH-15 due to its interoperability with the other systems. Plus the cheaper cost will mean we can get more of them.
> 
> Either way, it will be a good upgrade to PAs artillery capabilities if purchased, and if rumors are to be believed, there’s another system from the west coming too, The point about “remote operation capabilities” is important in that regard. The fully-automatic loader can be overlooked given how much bulkier it can make these guns.


Agree.


There isn't any 155mm self-propelled howitzers other than PCL181 has weight of less than 25 tons on the market.
Wheeled self-propelled howitzers normally can't beat K-9 Thunder or Panzerhaubitze 2000 on accuracy. What I heard that PLA requires no accuracy compromise. PCL181 has same accuracy of PLZ-05
SP with autoloader is much more expensive, and harder to maintain. PCL181 is semi-auto, the loading height is much lower than other wheeled SP on the market. Loading speed is very good.
Wheeled SP is designed for mass production with much less cost per unit. Otherwise, it will fail like ARCHER Artillery System which cost 4.5 millions USD per unit. Only Indian will buy it with tons of kickbacks.

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## Raja Porus

From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?


Not sure about that.... Why don't you join and find out yourself?

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?


Of course they don't know yet how to employ these. What happened was they just brought all these artillery pieces off the self without taking into account the training of manpower, maintainence base requirements, phasing out of old guns...... Dumb asses, aren't they.... Gosh..... No doubt we have already lost half of our country half a century before.... With us losing soldiers every day, it sure is a pseudo army we are talking about....

And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.... All our field commanders are like him....

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.


No doubt

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## siegecrossbow

First VT-4, then HQ-9, now SH-15. I’m sensing a strategic message here.

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## iLION12345_1

Reddawn said:


> Which system from the West is rumoured to be coming?


I tend not to give into rumors, so I won’t look into it or mention it until I can be more sure of it. Let’s wait a bit, we should hear sooner or later.

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## iLION12345_1

vi-va said:


> Agree.
> 
> 
> There isn't any 155mm self-propelled howitzers other than PCL181 has weight of less than 25 tons on the market.
> Wheeled self-propelled howitzers normally can't beat K-9 Thunder or Panzerhaubitze 2000 on accuracy. What I heard that PLA requires no accuracy compromise. PCL181 has same accuracy of PLZ-05
> SP with autoloader is much more expensive, and harder to maintain. PCL181 is semi-auto, the loading height is much lower than other wheeled SP on the market. Loading speed is very good.
> Wheeled SP is designed for mass production with much less cost per unit. Otherwise, it will fail like ARCHER Artillery System which cost 4.5 millions USD per unit. Only Indian will buy it with tons of kickbacks.


PZH-2000 is an excellent system as well, my personal gripes are only with systems based on the M109 platform. Meaning the K-9, the T-155 and the M109A6.

They have poor designs from the ground up. Back when PA was purchasing hundreds of M109A2s and A5s the decision made sense given the reliance on American tech and that there were less of these new artillery guns on the market. They were still good guns then and are decent now especially given their large numbers, but Nowadays to me it makes little sense to purchase the systems based on those old designs as the basic issues with them cannot be fixed, the biggest being the ROF. Russian Cold War SP artillery can fire several times faster than the M109A5 and A6 at little accuracy cost and similar ranges. That’s why US is also working on its Next-Gen SP artillery. Germany, Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, UK, all of them retired the M109 for local artillery guns when possible.

Maybe that is what kept PA away from turkish T-155 as well. The range in these guns were very limited too until very recently, and that new ammo longer range ammo is only in American service so far. They have also started working on ramjet rounds to push the ranges upto 150KM. Chinese RAP rounds from 54 calibre PLZ-05 (maybe SH-15 can fire them too?) are already certified for 100KM ranges as well.

Regardless, the guns in their basic attributes are as good as any other, accuracy, range, mobility. The lack of a full auto-loader is what hampers remote firing capabilities as well, along with the inability to receive firing data remotely, however they do have data-links for other forms of data communication. When working in tandem with other Chinese systems, these will work great. It is interesting to see PA go for a wheeled design but it makes sense given the nearly 500 M109A5 systems are still relevant and don’t need replacing.

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## vi-va

iLION12345_1 said:


> PZH-2000 is an excellent system as well, my personal gripes are only with systems based on the M109 platform. Meaning the K-9, the T-155 and the M109A6.
> 
> They have poor designs from the ground up. Back when PA was purchasing hundreds of M109A2s and A5s the decision made sense given the reliance on American tech and that there were less of these new artillery guns on the market. They were still good guns then and are decent now especially given their large numbers, but Nowadays to me it makes little sense to purchase the systems based on those old designs as the basic issues with them cannot be fixed, the biggest being the ROF. Russian Cold War SP artillery can fire several times faster than the M109A5 and A6 at little accuracy cost and similar ranges. That’s why US is also working on its Next-Gen SP artillery. Germany, Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, UK, all of them retired the M109 for local artillery guns when possible.
> 
> Maybe that is what kept PA away from turkish T-155 as well. The range in these guns were very limited too until very recently, and that new ammo longer range ammo is only in American service so far. They have also started working on ramjet rounds to push the ranges upto 150KM. Chinese RAP rounds from 54 calibre PLZ-05 (maybe SH-15 can fire them too?) are already certified for 100KM ranges as well.
> 
> Regardless, the guns in their basic attributes are as good as any other, accuracy, range, mobility. The lack of a full auto-loader is what hampers remote firing capabilities as well, along with the inability to receive firing data remotely, however they do have data-links for other forms of data communication. When working in tandem with other Chinese systems, these will work great. It is interesting to see PA go for a wheeled design but it makes sense given the nearly 500 M109A5 systems are still relevant and don’t need replacing.


*France CAESAR *

See the height of gun, and semi-autoloader.





See how high it is





PLA & PA PCL181, the soldiers are standing on the ground, see the height of the gun, how low it is











The gun height is almost as low as the towed gun. No other wheeled SP can do it.





PLA next generation armored SP. Larger, higher rate of fire

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Of course they don't know yet how to employ these. What happened was they just brought all these artillery pieces off the self without taking into account the training of manpower, maintainence base requirements, phasing out of old guns...... Dumb asses, aren't they.... Gosh..... No doubt we have already lost half of our country half a century before.... With us losing soldiers every day, it sure is a pseudo army we are talking about....
> 
> And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.... All our field commanders are like him....
> View attachment 786802


Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.


Whatever i tell, i dont have the desired proof to back it up, reputations generally dont matter here anymore... so lets keep it that way.

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> Whatever i tell, i dont have the desired proof to back it up, reputations generally dont matter here anymore... so lets keep it that way.


Not saying you should disclose anything you are not comfortable with, but lot of people on this forum respect you from the bottom of their hearts. For those respectable people, no proof is required, even a hint is more than enough.

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> Not saying you should disclose anything you are not comfortable with, but lot of people on this forum respect you from the bottom of their hearts. For those respectable people, no proof is required, even a hint is more than enough.


Sir has made a great point. @PanzerKiel Although if it can raise problems for you then please don't Sir.

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## Reichmarshal

PanzerKiel said:


> Of course they don't know yet how to employ these. What happened was they just brought all these artillery pieces off the self without taking into account the training of manpower, maintainence base requirements, phasing out of old guns...... Dumb asses, aren't they.... Gosh..... No doubt we have already lost half of our country half a century before.... With us losing soldiers every day, it sure is a pseudo army we are talking about....
> 
> And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.... All our field commanders are like him....
> View attachment 786802


When did this appointment take place......n did come with his lamp i presume.

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## Aasimkhan

Which PA guns can fire smart (GPS/Laser guided) rounds like US Excalber rounds ?

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## Pandora

PanzerKiel said:


> Not sure about that.... Why don't you join and find out yourself?


I once carried a 155 mm shell and i worship my army ever since 😂. Those days without autoloaders must have been a nightmare.

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## TheDarkKnight

Blacklight said:


> Not saying you should disclose anything you are not comfortable with, but lot of people on this forum respect you from the bottom of their hearts. For those respectable people, no proof is required, even a hint is more than enough.


@PanzerKiel 
Aap meray kaan ma bata dain. Mai kisi ko nahi bataon ga.

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## farooqbhai007

In all the recent exercise PA has been only showing these Rocket Based Mine delivery systems , what about the other standard 122mm MRLS , they were all upgraded with electronic fire control system but no pics yet , 
@PanzerKiel

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 787339
> 
> View attachment 787340
> 
> In all the recent exercise PA has been only showing these Rocket Based Mine delivery systems , what about the other standard 122mm MRLS , they were all upgraded with electronic fire control system but no pics yet ,
> @PanzerKiel


The new ones are called Mine Dispensing SYSTEMS. Pics are here somewhere on PDF.

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> The new ones are called Mine Dispensing SYSTEMS. Pics are here somewhere on PDF.


You mean the MAN 6x6 based ones which were also shown in parade ? I am talking about the new simple 122mm MRLS based on 6x4 Isuzu Chassis with a large Electronic box , no pics of these ones

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## Raja Porus

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 787339
> 
> View attachment 787340
> 
> In all the recent exercise PA has been only showing these Rocket Based Mine delivery systems , what about the other standard 122mm MRLS , they were all upgraded with electronic fire control system but no pics yet ,
> @PanzerKiel


It has a range of 15km and laying depth of 600m right?


PanzerKiel said:


> The new ones are called Mine Dispensing SYSTEMS. Pics are here somewhere on PDF.


Mine dispensing systems are different from Rocket delivery systems.

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 787339
> 
> View attachment 787340
> 
> In all the recent exercise PA has been only showing these Rocket Based Mine delivery systems , what about the other standard 122mm MRLS , they were all upgraded with electronic fire control system but no pics yet ,
> @PanzerKiel


Are you talking about the upgraded KRL 122mm system? If so then I haven't seen any pics either.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

PanzerKiel said:


> The new ones are called Mine Dispensing SYSTEMS. Pics are here somewhere on PDF.

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## kursed

Just saying... 


kursed said:


> SH-15 alongside ERFB-BB/RA (50 Km, 30Km) and laser-guided shells have been integrated.

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## Sayfullah

We’re buying everything Chinese from fighter jets to tanks to air defence systems to artillery. I don’t think we should rely on one supplier that much. Even if their our “iron brother” relying on only one supplier is completely stupid.

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## Pak Nationalist

kursed said:


> SH-15 alongside ERFB-BB/RA (50 Km, 30Km) and laser-guided shells have been integrated.


@Vapnope @Vapour

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## kursed

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> We’re buying everything Chinese from fighter jets to tanks to air defence systems to artillery. I don’t think we should rely on one supplier that much. Even if their our “iron brother” relying on only one supplier is completely stupid.


PN is buying both Chinese and European systems, so is PAF. PA too recently bought hundreds of M109s. VT-4 was a fairly natural choice, after the tests in Pak. The same goes for recent SAM acquisitions.

Americans are largely out as suppliers due to their restrictions on weapon sales to Pak, else PA was buying both Super Cobras and T129s. That Pakistan is now pushed entirely into Chinese camp as far as weapon sales are concerned is a byproduct of the country’s geopolitical position.

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## farooqbhai007

Great Janjua said:


> Are you talking about the upgraded KRL 122mm system? If so then I haven't seen any pics either.


Yea , I did see one a few years ago on the road , but no pictures of it


----------



## Oldman1

iLION12345_1 said:


> PZH-2000 is an excellent system as well, my personal gripes are only with systems based on the M109 platform. Meaning the K-9, the T-155 and the M109A6.
> 
> They have poor designs from the ground up. Back when PA was purchasing hundreds of M109A2s and A5s the decision made sense given the reliance on American tech and that there were less of these new artillery guns on the market. They were still good guns then and are decent now especially given their large numbers, but Nowadays to me it makes little sense to purchase the systems based on those old designs as the basic issues with them cannot be fixed, the biggest being the ROF. Russian Cold War SP artillery can fire several times faster than the M109A5 and A6 at little accuracy cost and similar ranges. That’s why US is also working on its Next-Gen SP artillery. Germany, Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, UK, all of them retired the M109 for local artillery guns when possible.
> 
> Maybe that is what kept PA away from turkish T-155 as well. The range in these guns were very limited too until very recently, and that new ammo longer range ammo is only in American service so far. They have also started working on ramjet rounds to push the ranges upto 150KM. Chinese RAP rounds from 54 calibre PLZ-05 (maybe SH-15 can fire them too?) are already certified for 100KM ranges as well.
> 
> Regardless, the guns in their basic attributes are as good as any other, accuracy, range, mobility. The lack of a full auto-loader is what hampers remote firing capabilities as well, along with the inability to receive firing data remotely, however they do have data-links for other forms of data communication. When working in tandem with other Chinese systems, these will work great. It is interesting to see PA go for a wheeled design but it makes sense given the nearly 500 M109A5 systems are still relevant and don’t need replacing.



The U.S. military is planning to deploy the new M109s with autoloader and longer barrel for better range (able to shoot over 100km) and rate of fire.

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## iLION12345_1

Oldman1 said:


> The U.S. military is planning to deploy the new M109s with autoloader and longer barrel for better range (able to shoot over 100km) and rate of fire.


Yep, but this doesn’t qualify for my criticism because the platform is completely new (everything including the hull and the turret is changed), so it doesn’t have the issues that the Normal M109 design has, even if it Has the same name.

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## Vapnope

Is there an artillery shell in Pakistan's inventory that breaks into bomblets near target like CBU 105 but ground launched.
@iLION12345_1 @kursed @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Phantom.

Vapnope said:


> Is there an artillery shell in Pakistan's inventory that breaks into bomblets near target like CBU 105 but ground launched.
> @iLION12345_1 @kursed @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


If you are asking about a artillery based cluster ammunition shell then POF produces M483A1 155mm Cluster ammunition shell but PA or PAF dont have a sensor fused cluster bomb similar to CBU-105

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## Vapnope

Phantom. said:


> If you are asking about a artillery based cluster ammunition shell then POF produces M483A1 155mm Cluster ammunition shell but PA or PAF dont have a sensor fused cluster bomb similar to CBU-105


Yes cluster munitions shell but it has a max range of 17km? Any other shell that has 40-50km range?


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## Phantom.

Vapnope said:


> Yes cluster munitions shell but it has a max range of 17km? Any other shell that has 40-50km range?


AFAIK there is no other cluster artillery shell with a range of 40-50km in PA other then the M483A1 POF produces K-310 155mm cluster shell which has a max range of 36km depending on the propellent

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## Bilal.

Phantom. said:


> AFAIK there is no other cluster artillery shell with a range of 40-50km in PA other then the M483A1 POF produces K-310 155mm cluster shell which has a max range of 36km depending on the propellent


Chinese have sensor fused weapon on 300mm rocket. Any chance PA got them for A100s?


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## Phantom.

Bilal. said:


> Chinese have sensor fused weapon on 300mm rocket. Any chance PA got them for A100s?


I dont know brother.Maybe someone else who knows can answer this question.

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## Reichmarshal

Vapnope said:


> Is there an artillery shell in Pakistan's inventory that breaks into bomblets near target like CBU 105 but ground launched.
> @iLION12345_1 @kursed @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


u mean an air burst shell


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## Vapnope

Reichmarshal said:


> u mean an air burst shell


Not exactly but a shell that packs multiple smaller shells like cluster and they spread before detonation.


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## Waterboy

SH 15 guns have arrived.

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## farooqbhai007

Waterboy said:


> SH 15 guns have arrived.


Wo to 2018 sey hi idhar hain ,

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> Wo to 2018 sey hi idhar hain ,


wait a min r u talking the gun came for trial or you are saying we received batch of SH-15 in 2018?

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## Waterboy

@Panzer
Sir if you know you know.

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## Zarvan

Waterboy said:


> SH 15 guns have arrived.


You mean first batch ? And if yes what is the size of our order ?


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## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> wait a min r u talking the gun came for trial or you are saying we received batch of SH-15 in 2018?


Several units came for trials , and never left ever since , then second phase of trials happened. But let's see if we get to see them on the parade then they are here in large numbers, if we dont then the news is just a rumor as it has already been told several times before , in this year alone.
Though something to keep in mind is PA is going for two different types of Wheeled Systems as SH15 doesn't fill all requirements. Let's wait and see.

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> PA is going for two different types of Wheeled Systems


possibility of any other detail related to this you can share

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## Riz

HRK said:


> possibility of any other detail related to this you can share


PA received first batch in last October, from the order of 230 units

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## HRK

Riz said:


> PA received first batch in last October, from the order of 230 units


any knowledge about the other type of wheeled Howitzer ?

as @farooqbhai007 was indicating 2 types of systems in his post.

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## Riz

HRK said:


> any knowledge about the other type of wheeled Howitzer ?
> 
> as @farooqbhai007 was indicating 2 types of systems in his post.


Sh-15 is export version of PLC-181 , maybe he is confused about its name

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## HRK

Riz said:


> Sh-15 export version is PLC-181


Sh-15 is the export version of PLC-181 which is in PLA service.

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## Riz

HRK said:


> Sh-15 is the export version of PLC-181 which is in PLA service.


Oh sorry , my mistake

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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> Oh sorry , my mistake


He is not confused. Even it was told here on this forum that initial plan was to go for two systems. Still that plan is not fully abolished. So we can end up adopting two different artillery systems

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> He is not confused. Even it was told here on this forum that initial plan was to go for two systems. Still that plan is not fully abolished. So we can end up adopting two different artillery systems


Pak army tested 155 mm system from china , south africa and serbia , don’t know what other system they selected


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## farooqbhai007

Riz said:


> Pak army tested 155 mm system from china , south africa and serbia , don’t know what other system they selected


These 3 were part of the first phase of trials in which SH-15 was selected , the PA then conducted a second set of trials last year with expanded number of participants and a new set of requirements which the ones from first trial didnt full-fill , so the second system was or has been selected based on 2nd phase of trials.

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> These 3 were part of the first phase of trials in which SH-15 was selected , the PA then conducted a second set of trials last year with expanded number of participants and a new set of requirements which the ones from first trial didnt full-fill , so the second system was or has been selected based on 2nd phase of trials.


@PanzerKiel Sir any comments

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> @PanzerKiel Sir any comments

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 808336


I like that

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## araz

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 808336


Ab aa gaye tum jawan ho kar???????

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 808336


This is how I alway imaging the condition of PanzerKiel whenever someone ask him a query and he posts this meme

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## Windjammer

Raining Fire: Pakistan Army's M-198 155mm/39 Cal Towed Howitzer.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485482660730667008

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## Akatosh

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485482660730667008


Contract to be signed during Defexpo in March.

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## farooqbhai007

Looks like several units of SH15 have been spotted , indicating that the SH15 is indeed in service.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485960931863666694

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Looks like several units of SH15 have been spotted , indicating that the SH15 is indeed in service.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485960931863666694




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485980264811708421

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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485980264811708421


Chuss , They have been spotted by several people and a large number has been spotted , these aren't for trials.
PSF is making a joke of itself, the trials were being conducted in Southern Punjab where they were spotted on sat imagery as well. While these pictures were taken in northern Punjab.

.



These are 3 different units in the pictures alone. That basically debunks there claim.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485989676834082819

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486009970470629377

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486009970470629377


Bhai kya post kiya tha ???

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## kursed

I can confirm that Pakistan has received operational units of SH-15 (more than 50), deal included TOT on its ERFB ammo as well. Details of the transfer already shared with @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Phantom.

HRK said:


> Bhai kya post kiya tha ???


Videos of SH-15.

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## farooqbhai007

HRK said:


> Bhai kya post kiya tha ???


They posted a video of SH15s convoy in which more than 3 were visible , and said that Update we can confirm SH15 has arrived.



kursed said:


> I can confirm that Pakistan has received operational units of SH-15 (more than 50), deal included TOT on its ERBB ammo as well. Details of the transfer already shared with @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


3 Regiments delivered so far at the very least with more being delivered

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## kursed

Yep, Army had already received thousands of ERFB RA/BB rounds. And now have added TOT for the same.

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## Bilal.

kursed said:


> Yep, Army had already received thousands of ERFB RA/BB rounds. And now have added TOT for the same.


Were the GP series guided rounds part of the deal?


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## kursed

Bilal. said:


> Were the GP series guided rounds part of the deal?


I do know that ERFB/RABB rounds were acquired, not sure of the guided series. CBU ammo is also part of the deal.

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## Super Falcon

India will have more K 9 than oak army howitzers

And israeli artilery is also under consideration ATHOS


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## Primus

Super Falcon said:


> India will have more K 9 than oak army howitzers
> 
> And israeli artilery is also under consideration ATHOS


Not really. In this domain (spg) pakistan dominates. 389 m109 (a2, a5 and L variants) and now 250+ sh15.

Compared to Indias 100 k9 (200 more ordered)


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## iLION12345_1

Huffal said:


> Not really. In this domain (spg) pakistan dominates. 389 m109 (a2, a5 and L variants) and now 250+ sh15.
> 
> Compared to Indias 100 k9 (200 more ordered)


Pakistan received in excess of 500 M109s.
115 M109A5
200+ M109A2 (most of these are modernized to either M109A5 or M109A2M)
150+ M109L. 

However not all of them are in service, some of the M109Ls at least were bought for spares.

I’d still guess we have 400+ operational. Add to that the 60-70 M110A2s and now modern SPGs in the form of SH15 (and one more platform might be on the way )

PA has over 600 SPGs in service with several hundred more planned.

However, IA has a much larger and more modern tower artillery fleet, thats just more down to doctrine, hopefully PA will get a new platform in that regard soon too, I pray HITs proposal passes the army trials.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486251592475160579
Better resolution

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## Inception-06

iLION12345_1 said:


> Pakistan received in excess of 500 M109s.
> 115 M109A5
> 200+ M109A2 (most of these are modernized to either M109A5 or M109A2M)
> 150+ M109L.
> 
> However not all of them are in service, some of the M109Ls at least were bought for spares.
> 
> I’d still guess we have 400+ operational. Add to that the 60-70 M110A2s and now modern SPGs in the form of SH15 (and one more platform might be on the way )
> 
> PA has over 600 SPGs in service with several hundred more planned.
> 
> However, IA has a much larger and more modern tower artillery fleet, thats just more down to doctrine, hopefully PA will get a new platform in that regard soon too, I pray HITs proposal passes the army trials.



What are the strategic and tactical doctrine and thoughts regarding deployment, role, advantage and disadvantage, maintenance circles of this Artillery System ?

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> What are the strategic and tactical doctrine and thoughts regarding deployment, role, advantage and disadvantage, maintenance circles of this Artillery System ?


Sorry for my failure to understand but Which system exactly? The M109? The SH-15? Or SP arty in general.

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## farooqbhai007

@PanzerKiel Could we be seeing a M109 upgrade or replacement program (for the Older versions) anytime soon

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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> @PanzerKiel Could we be seeing a M109 upgrade or replacement program (for the Older versions) anytime soon


I don’t think they’ll get upgraded, but they won’t be retired anytime soon either, they’ve got lots of life left in them. They’ll just get supplanted by the more modern artillery where needed. There is not all that much difference in the performance of M109A5s and M109A2/M109L. Keep in mind that PA M109A2s also have some basic upgrades to keep them relevant.

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## Inception-06

iLION12345_1 said:


> Sorry for my failure to understand but Which system exactly? The M109? The SH-15? Or SP arty in general.



Sorry, I was at work when I tipped hastily, the SH-15 please ( are the SH-15s suitable for the Desert warfare ..) .

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## MH.Yang

Inception-06 said:


> Sorry, I was at work when I tipped hastily, the SH-15 please ( are the SH-15s suitable for the Desert warfare ..) .


British Defense Weekly once nicknamed PCL-181 "the king of global truck guns". 
It weighs only 25 tons and is suitable for combat in any terrain.

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> Sorry, I was at work when I tipped hastily, the SH-15 please ( are the SH-15s suitable for the Desert warfare ..) .


No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).

The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper. 

I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.

But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.

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## Inception-06

iLION12345_1 said:


> No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).
> 
> The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.
> 
> I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
> China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.
> 
> But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.


Very well written and explained you should write for ISPR or @Quwa !

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## Bilal.

@iLION12345_1 you also used to mention remote firing capability. What exactly is that?



Inception-06 said:


> Very well written and explained you should write for ISPR or @Quwa !


I recommend you read his posts on Al Khalid an VT4. Very informative and well written (and researched).

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## Inception-06

Bilal. said:


> @iLION12345_1 you also used to mention remote firing capability. What exactly is that?
> 
> 
> I recommend you read his posts on Al Khalid an VT4. Very informative and well written (and researched).



I had read 90% of his valuable posts, since he is posting ! He is the new kid on the Block in the line with @Signalian @PanzerKiel @Desert Fox 1

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## truthseeker2010

iLION12345_1 said:


> Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.


 any idea of numbers on both sides (sp and tg)?

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## Khan vilatey

iLION12345_1 said:


> No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).
> 
> The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.
> 
> I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
> China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.
> 
> But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.


Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars

k

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## Path-Finder

iLION12345_1 said:


> No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).
> 
> The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.
> 
> I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
> China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.
> 
> But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.


SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?


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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> @iLION12345_1 you also used to mention remote firing capability. What exactly is that?
> 
> 
> I recommend you read his posts on Al Khalid an VT4. Very informative and well written (and researched).


Remote firing means being able to use the gun “unmanned”, as in, being able to fire it remotely from another location, for example a command post. This is also useful for firing multiple guns at the same time, all stationed at different locations, being controlled from a single command post or command gun. Reduces the manpower needed. It’s not a necessity, but can be useful in some conditions, especially when manpower is needed elsewhere. 

Although I must say, I don’t understand the full application of the system yet either, since it also seems a little counterintuitive in some occasions to be leaving guns unmanned/with a smaller crew.

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## iLION12345_1

Khan vilatey said:


> Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars
> 
> k


Towed arty does have a few advantages over SP. One being weight and size, another being cost, and a third one being a lack of constraints that may come with having to design the gun carrier under the gun. Without that carriage, the guns capabilities can be greater, as they don’t have to factor in things like recoil (though modern tech has mostly covered this gap). It comes down to doctrine at the end of the day, PA prefers SPs over Towed, IA prefers Towed over SP. While this does allow IA to have a larger lead in Towed arty than we do in SP, I do think our strategy is more superior and forward thinking as more modern SP guns are starting to cover the demerits of the older ones over towed arty, doubly so in the case of wheeled SPs.



Khan vilatey said:


> Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars
> 
> k


Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable 



Path-Finder said:


> SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?


Yes, I’m sure, it has a semi-automatic loader and not a fully automatic one unlike most Wheeled SP guns. You can see the large box on the back when it’s present. 
While it does make it considerably lighter (something that was important for China in regards to their terrain and airlift capability), it does reduce the ROF and remove remote firing capabilities.

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## iLION12345_1

truthseeker2010 said:


> any idea of numbers on both sides (sp and tg)?


SPs are easy to keep track of, Towed guns not as much.
PA has nearly 550 SPs before any SH-15 orders (200 or more expected). India has 100, with 200 more on order.

India has over 2000 Towed artillery guns. Don’t really know the exact numbers but 2200~ would be a decent estimate.

Pakistan has somewhere between 1700-2500 depending on the estimate you use, I would say the numbers are maybe 2000~ At most, yes it’s quite a large spectrum, but too many of these guns are old or small calibre (105MM and below) and don’t have modern FCS or other systems, unlike the Indian guns. PA is working on this domain as well, HIT is making a towed arty gun for PA, foreign options will likely be considered too.

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## Basel

kursed said:


> I can confirm that Pakistan has received operational units of SH-15 (more than 50), deal included TOT on its ERFB ammo as well. Details of the transfer already shared with @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Did PA purchased WS-36 shells?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

What happened to HITs towed howitzer?

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What happened to HITs towed howitzer?


Still under trials, PA has not officially opened the trials/requirements for their Towed howitzers yet AFAIK. They’re focusing on SPs according to their doctrine atm. I’m sure they’ll start looking at towed guns after, HITs option should be among the competitors for that along side foreign options.

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## truthseeker2010

iLION12345_1 said:


> SPs are easy to keep track of, Towed guns not as much.
> PA has nearly 550 SPs before any SH-15 orders (200 or more expected). India has 100, with 200 more on order.
> 
> India has over 2000 Towed artillery guns. Don’t really know the exact numbers but 2200~ would be a decent estimate.
> 
> Pakistan has somewhere between 1700-2500 depending on the estimate you use, I would say the numbers are maybe 2000~ At most, yes it’s quite a large spectrum, but too many of these guns are old or small calibre (105MM and below) and don’t have modern FCS or other systems, unlike the Indian guns. PA is working on this domain as well, HIT is making a towed arty gun for PA, foreign options will likely be considered too.



2300 guns for army of 1.2 million is way underequiped. I think it would be at least 3000+ given that pak has 2000.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> Still under trials, PA has not officially opened the trials/requirements for their Towed howitzers yet AFAIK. They’re focusing on SPs according to their doctrine atm. I’m sure they’ll start looking at towed guns after, HITs option should be among the competitors for that along side foreign options.


With this massive SPG deal they should have gotten licensed production deal and used the know how to fast track local gun programe.

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## iLION12345_1

truthseeker2010 said:


> 2300 guns for army of 1.2 million is way underequiped. I think it would be at least 3000+ given that pak has 2000.


Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> With this massive SPG deal they should have gotten licensed production deal and used the know how to fast track local gun programe.


I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.
> 
> 
> I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.


I think the Army's SPH procurement may depend on HIT's in-house gun. If it meets the Army's requirements, HIT may develop it further into a truck-mounted SPH. This solution may give the Army that relatively low-cost solution to supplant the bulk of its guns.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).
> 
> The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.
> 
> I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
> China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.
> 
> But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.


We didn't went for tracked one because right now we were looking for wheeled ones. Right now we have enough of M-109. We would upgrade them further and when time will come we would look for tracked ones also. Turkey and China will be main contenders in that one also. Right now PA was looking for wheeled ones and we got them now. As for towed that is also under works.


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## ARMalik

There is Much more stuff on its way across all services. Serious Heavy Military build continues.


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## truthseeker2010

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.
> 
> 
> I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.



I get the quality part, but you still need to fill the TOE given that IA is infantry heavy so each div has arty bde. IA has 37 div and each with 54 guns are at least 2000 guns without reserves. The independent brigades and arty divs (3) are separate.

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## PanzerKiel

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What happened to HITs towed howitzer?


Regimental trials are going on somewhere. Lets wait for the results.

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> We didn't went for tracked one because right now we were looking for wheeled ones. Right now we have enough of M-109. We would upgrade them further and when time will come we would look for tracked ones also. Turkey and China will be main contenders in that one also. Right now PA was looking for wheeled ones and we got them now. As for towed that is also under works.


Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.


Even if K9 is version of it was recently upgraded. Secondly we would get it changed according to our requirements. Finally even Chinese option have improved over the years.


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## kursed

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.


Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?

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## Phantom.

kursed said:


> Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?


I think what he said is that rather then just upgrading the M109s PA should just replace them when the time comes imo upgrading M109s is really not worth it unless you are going to upgrade the gun to 52Caliber which will increase the range of conventional rounds by a substantial amount but the problems like the turret design will still remain unless PA upgrades them to T-155 other chinese tracked options like the PZL-05 have semi auto loading as well i think only propellent has to be placed manually so its just better to replace them when the time comes italian M109Ls were in service since 1986 PA Probably got them at a very cheap price italians did put up another stock i wonder if PA purchased that as well.


iLION12345_1 said:


> 200+ M109A2


According to Zaloga and sipri PA only got 152 M109A2s.

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## Khan vilatey

iLION12345_1 said:


> Towed arty does have a few advantages over SP. One being weight and size, another being cost, and a third one being a lack of constraints that may come with having to design the gun carrier under the gun. Without that carriage, the guns capabilities can be greater, as they don’t have to factor in things like recoil (though modern tech has mostly covered this gap). It comes down to doctrine at the end of the day, PA prefers SPs over Towed, IA prefers Towed over SP. While this does allow IA to have a larger lead in Towed arty than we do in SP, I do think our strategy is more superior and forward thinking as more modern SP guns are starting to cover the demerits of the older ones over towed arty, doubly so in the case of wheeled SPs.
> 
> 
> Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable
> 
> 
> Yes, I’m sure, it has a semi-automatic loader and not a fully automatic one unlike most Wheeled SP guns. You can see the large box on the back when it’s present.
> While it does make it considerably lighter (something that was important for China in regards to their terrain and airlift capability), it does reduce the ROF and remove remote firing capabilities.


Thank you for the response, I completely agree with having more SP artillery, the only down side I see for the SH-15 when compared the m109 or k9 is the ability to fire on the move.

Truck mounted sp would have to
1)get into position setup 45-60 seconds,
2) send some lucky Indian militarily personal to hell by firing around 4-6 rounds in one minute , remember these ususally operate in batteries of 4 guns so it’s around 12-16 rounds on target
3) pack up 1 minute
Drive to new location before Indian counter battery fire comes .

The sh-15 counter battery radar picks these up!

From new position on the mountain / proposed skurdu road fire another 12-16 rounds at the towed battery that had fired at the sh-15. Expediting the movements of more Indian military to hell!

Rinse repeat!

Now the most important question which Chinese artillery location radar was bought with this ?

Was it the SLC-2 or something better









SLC-2 Radar - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





K

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## iLION12345_1

truthseeker2010 said:


> I get the quality part, but you still need to fill the TOE given that IA is infantry heavy so each div has arty bde. IA has 37 div and each with 54 guns are at least 2000 guns without reserves. The independent brigades and arty divs (3) are separate.


Well, that’s what I meant when I said the towed guns are hard to keep track of 
You’re probably right, I don’t keep up with regiments and such.


kursed said:


> Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?


They did, I didn’t mean the M109s are going to be replaced soon, I meant that PAs money would be better used replacing the guns altogether when the time comes rather than trying to upgrade them more.



Phantom. said:


> I think what he said is that rather then just upgrading the M109s PA should just replace them when the time comes imo upgrading M109s is really not worth it unless you are going to upgrade the gun to 52Caliber which will increase the range of conventional rounds by a substantial amount but the problems like the turret design will still remain unless PA upgrades them to T-155 other chinese tracked options like the PZL-05 have semi auto loading as well i think only propellent has to be placed manually so its just better to replace them when the time comes italian M109Ls were in service since 1986 PA Probably got them at a very cheap price italians did put up another stock i wonder if PA purchased that as well.
> 
> According to Zaloga and sipri PA only got 152 M109A2s.


Thank you, that’s what I meant. ZALOGA and SIPRI aren’t always accurate, but even if PA only got 152 M109A2s, that’s still 115+152+ all the M109Ls put up by Italy, which was quite a substantial number (italy had 273 M109Ls in Total). We know PA got at least 150~ of them, and then more were put up for sale by Italy, but we don’t know if PA got those. I believe SIPRI may not be covering for the data of the M109A2s delivered at the end (before A5s and Ls) as aid.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.


IIRC in the Mushy days, the Army apparently liked the PzH-2000. It's a high-cost monster, but tracked SPHs are also niche. I think the mainstay of the PA's SPH will comprise of wheeled solutions (they get the job done in 90%). However, I think a small number of high-quality tracked SPHs (likely Eastern) and, potentially, an RC turret-based SPH will come down towards the end of this decade.

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## iLION12345_1

i don’t think you fully read what I said. The K-9 is an upgrade over the M109 with a similar design, the T-155 is just a Turkish K-9. No matter how many upgrades you give to both, they’ll still carry forward some of issues that exist due to the M109 platform. Hence they’re not the best picks for tracked artillery these days imo. The best options would be Russia (S-35), Chinese (PLZ-05, and yes, China caught up in this regard quite a while back) or European (though most of them are making new wheeled SPs and not tracked ones because of the versatility). 


Zarvan said:


> Even if K9 is version of it was recently upgraded. Secondly we would get it changed according to our requirements. Finally even Chinese option have improved over the years.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> i don’t think you fully read what I said. The K-9 is an upgrade over the M109 with a similar design, the T-155 is just a Turkish K-9. No matter how many upgrades you give to both, they’ll still carry forward some of issues that exist due to the M109 platform. Hence they’re not the best picks for tracked artillery these days imo. The best options would be Russia (S-35), Chinese (PLZ-05, and yes, China caught up in this regard quite a while back) or European (though most of them are making new wheeled SPs and not tracked ones because of the versatility).


There's also the gnarly option of using an IFV as the basis for a tracked SPH. The Czechs and Poles have been experimenting with quite a few designs along those lines. I'm sure the Army saw the concepts. Something akin to Singapore's Primus:

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's also the gnarly option of using an IFV as the basis for a tracked SPH. The Czechs and Poles have been experimenting with quite a few designs along those lines. I'm sure the Army saw the concepts. Something akin to Singapore's Primus:
> 
> View attachment 811845


Perhaps this one or a derivative





also recently saw a photo of an unnamed Chinese wheeled SPH under development that looked like that but with 6 wheels, but can’t seem to find the picture.

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## MikeZulu

Path-Finder said:


> SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?


Even if it has, and I've heard that it does, we aren't getting it.


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## MikeZulu

Khan vilatey said:


> Thank you for the response, I completely agree with having more SP artillery, the only down side I see for the SH-15 when compared the m109 or k9 is the ability to fire on the move.
> 
> Truck mounted sp would have to
> 1)get into position setup 45-60 seconds,
> 2) send some lucky Indian militarily personal to hell by firing around 4-6 rounds in one minute , remember these ususally operate in batteries of 4 guns so it’s around 12-16 rounds on target
> 3) pack up 1 minute
> Drive to new location before Indian counter battery fire comes .
> 
> The sh-15 counter battery radar picks these up!
> 
> From new position on the mountain / proposed skurdu road fire another 12-16 rounds at the towed battery that had fired at the sh-15. Expediting the movements of more Indian military to hell!
> 
> Rinse repeat!
> 
> Now the most important question which Chinese artillery location radar was bought with this ?
> 
> Was it the SLC-2 or something better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SLC-2 Radar - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K


Normal artillery has to operate within the framework of a battery due to technical reasons but mainly for ease of command and control whereas SH 15 is an independent and complete system in itself and it doesn't require to be in close proximity of other guns to work on the same grid and to communicate so they will not operate in traditional setup of batteries, as of now.

Plus 4 guns per battery is for heavy regiments, and 6 for field/medium.

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## Inception-06

MikeZulu said:


> Normal artillery has to operate within the framework of a battery due to technical reasons but mainly for ease of command and control whereas SH 15 is an independent and complete system in itself and it doesn't require to be in close proximity of other guns to work on the same grid and to communicate so they will not operate in traditional setup of batteries, as of now.
> 
> Plus 4 guns per battery is for heavy regiments, and 6 for field/medium.



Do you knowing which year the 25 pounders we’re retired ? And which gun is that in your profile picture 105 mm US made system ?


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## vi-va

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps this one or a derivative
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also recently saw a photo of an unnamed Chinese wheeled SPH under development that looked like that but with 6 wheels, but can’t seem to find the picture.


not 6 wheels, but 7 pair of wheels.


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## MikeZulu

Inception-06 said:


> Do you knowing which year the 25 pounders we’re retired ? And which gun is that in your profile picture 105 mm US made system ?


I don't know the year but 25 pounders have been retired since long, now they are only with FC/Mujahid Artillery at few places. 
And maybe in Waziristan as well because there isn't any single system there at a place.
A single gun position consists of a mixture of 130mm Gun, 122 mm How, D 30, 155 mm Gun, 8 inch How Towed etc.. 

And yes, it's a 105 mm How.

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## FuturePAF

vi-va said:


> not 6 wheels, but 7 pair of wheels.








Actually I think it’s 8 wheels

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## farooqbhai007

FuturePAF said:


> View attachment 811910
> 
> Actually I think it’s 8 wheels


This ones different , the 7 wheel one was a tracked system of a new type


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## iLION12345_1

MikeZulu said:


> Even if it has, and I've heard that it does, we aren't getting it.


It doesn’t have it, if it did it would be very clearly visible on the gun. It has a semi-automatic loading system. You can clearly see it being hand-loaded in videos.

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## FuturePAF

farooqbhai007 said:


> This ones different , the 7 wheel one was a tracked system of a new type


Yeah, this was a compact design I saw with a 155mm? artillery system on top. A potentially very capable system in the right circumstances.

probably has an auto-loader? Maybe good for Shoot and scoot missions in areas with decent enough roads.


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## vi-va

FuturePAF said:


> View attachment 811910
> 
> Actually I think it’s 8 wheels


I misread his post. What I mean is this one

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## HRK

vi-va said:


> I misread his post. What I mean is this one
> View attachment 811947
> 
> 
> View attachment 811948
> 
> 
> View attachment 811949


name of this system ???


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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> He is not confused. Even it was told here on this forum that initial plan was to go for two systems. Still that plan is not fully abolished. So we can end up adopting two different artillery systems


Both from china or other will be from west ?


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## FuturePAF

vi-va said:


> I misread his post. What I mean is this one
> View attachment 811947
> 
> 
> View attachment 811948
> 
> 
> View attachment 811949


I understood you meant tracked. While I meant wheeled. Misunderstanding cleared up, both systems are good in their own terrains

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## Bilal.

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps this one or a derivative
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also recently saw a photo of an unnamed Chinese wheeled SPH under development that looked like that but with 6 wheels, but can’t seem to find the picture.


Interesting. They have a BONUS style sensor-fused top attack munition.



HRK said:


> name of this system ???


I think it’s PLZ05.

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## Phantom.

HRK said:


> name of this system ???





Bilal. said:


> I think it’s PLZ05


New Self propelled Gun still under development.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal. said:


> Interesting. They have a BONUS style sensor-fused top attack munition.
> 
> 
> I think it’s PLZ05.


All they need now is to be paired with some kind of Stealthy but fast Tilt Rotor drone to do recon and hide behind terrain and evade enemy air defense (hence tilt rotor over helicopter). In the US marine modernization, the focus is on more unarmed sensors linked with a limited but dispersed number of shooters. Spotting with cheaper and simpler sensors and a robust network that allows data to be shared with the artillery will be the critical points in future battles, IMHO.

Imagine one of these with a long range targeting pod and EW

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## Scorpiooo

Is HiT capable of producing some quality stuff at all ?

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## Basel

Huffal said:


> Not really. In this domain (spg) pakistan dominates. 389 m109 (a2, a5 and L variants) and now 250+ sh15.
> 
> Compared to Indias 100 k9 (200 more ordered)



What happened to modernization of towed gun to 155 mm standard with K-9 gun from Korea??



Path-Finder said:


> SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?



It has semi auto loader.

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> Both from china or other will be from west ?


No idea. But from other then China most likely. That was the original plan. If that plan still is there or abandoned that is not known.


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## MikeZulu

iLION12345_1 said:


> It doesn’t have it, if it did it would be very clearly visible on the gun. It has a semi-automatic loading system. You can clearly see it being hand-loaded in videos.


You are right 😊

Hadn't seen the video and haven't seen it in person, as of yet but soon I will In Sha Allah.

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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> No idea. But from other then China most likely. That was the original plan. If that plan still is there or abandoned that is not known.


If they go for it must have some features missing in SH 15 , will not be truck based and may be auto loader may be in heavier category

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488437327529758721

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## MikeZulu

Cluster munitions? Does China manufacture DPICM shells? Or something similar? 


Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488437327529758721

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## Super Falcon

Do these are superior than k 9 og india


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## MikeZulu

Super Falcon said:


> Do these are superior than k 9 og india


Not going into technicalities, wheeled SPs are more mobile, tracked are more well protected/armored.


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## iLION12345_1

MikeZulu said:


> Not going into technicalities, wheeled SPs are more mobile, tracked are more well protected/armored.


Not really a good comparison or contrast of either. Tracked SPs can be more mobile than wheeled ones depending on terrain. Tracked SPs don’t have much armor either, nor is it a major consideration when testing them. At most it can stop small arms fire (which wheeled SPs cabins can too). If you’re ever in a position where your artillery needs to be armored to stop direct fire then something has gone very wrong.

There are several other advantages and disadvantages of both, just not particularly those two.



Super Falcon said:


> Do these are superior than k 9 og india


Read my previous posts in regard to K-9 and other SPs based off M109. The FCS systems are impossible to comparable because we don’t know enough about them. K9 obviously reserves the advantages of a tracked SP while the SH-15 reserves those of a wheeled SP. However I believe the SH-15 currently has longer range with its best ammunition than the K-9. I wouldn’t say one is significantly better than the other because it’s an apples to oranges comparison, they’re just two different things. 

If we want to compare the correct guns, it would be the Chinese PLZ-05 versus the K-9, in which case the PLZ-05 definitely has some advantages.

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## Beast

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not really a good comparison or contrast of either. Tracked SPs can be more mobile than wheeled ones depending on terrain. Tracked SPs don’t have much armor either, nor is it a major consideration when testing them. At most it can stop small arms fire (which wheeled SPs cabins can too). If you’re ever in a position where your artillery needs to be armored to stop direct fire then something has gone very wrong.


The fact that SH-15 is partial armour and semi auto , got to do with it doctrine. SH-15 are designed to mass replace tow 155mm howitzer, they are meant to be light, mobile and mostly self independence without too much support.

Sure, u can added more amour, give it more protection all round, and u can even give it full auto loading at expense of heavier , bigger loading mechanism which will make the new SPH 50 % increase in mass and volume compare to current SH-15.

Then u will end up with a wheel SPH that cannot fit into a C-130J or Y-9 transport plane or transport over certain soft terrain.
A wheel SPH that is more costly to replace every tow howitzer in service.

This is not what PA and PLA wants.

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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> The fact that SH-15 is partial armour and semi auto , got to do with it doctrine. SH-15 are designed to mass replace tow 155mm howitzer, they are meant to be light, mobile and mostly self independence without too much support.
> 
> Sure, u can added more amour, give it more protection all round, and u can even give it full auto loading at expense of heavier , bigger loading mechanism which will make the new SPH 50 % increase in mass and volume compare to current SH-15.
> 
> Then u will end up with a wheel SPH that cannot fit into a C-130J or Y-9 transport plane or transport over certain soft terrain.
> A wheel SPH that is more costly to replace every tow howitzer in service.
> 
> This is not what PA and PLA wants.


I’m aware of the doctrinal decisions that led to the creation of the SH-15, I’ve already detailed all of what you said in one my previous posts and agreed with you when you repeated it, there’s no need to repeat it again 

However I will comment on the last line, SH-15 is designed according to PLA doctrine, but PA doesn’t have the same doctrine, they’d have preferred a heavier SP with an auto-loader, but China gives the better deal, they give ToT and they are willing to modify their guns, hence it makes them a more appealing option for the PA, even if it doesn’t fully fit their criteria. Pakistan is never going to need to transport these guns by air.

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## Beast

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’m aware of the doctrinal decisions that led to the creation of the SH-15, I’ve already detailed all of what you said in one my previous posts and agreed with you when you repeated it, there’s no need to repeat it again
> 
> However I will comment on the last line, SH-15 is designed according to PLA doctrine, but PA doesn’t have the same doctrine, they’d have preferred a heavier SP with an auto-loader, but China gives the better deal, they give ToT and they are willing to modify their guns, hence it makes them a more appealing option for the PA, even if it doesn’t fully fit their criteria. Pakistan is never going to need to transport these guns by air.


I don't think PA prefer a heavier SP. They will never go for SH-15 if that is the case.


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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> I don't think PA prefer a heavier SP. They will never go for SH-15 if that is the case.


I already told you the reason why PA went for the SH-15. SH-15 was the only lighter SP trialed by PA among half a dozen competitors, that should easily show PAs preferences.

They Seem to have made a decision between a much better deal on a lighter SP without an auto-loader and some extra features or a heavier SP with all the features but a worst deal and possible loss of ToT. The kinetic performance of the guns themselves I cannot comment on since no information was released, but I’d comfortably say the Chinese gun is as good (if not better, seeing as PA has picked it) as it’s competitors in that regard.

PLA has little need for the air-transportability or the lower weight of SH-15 due to their doctrine.


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## Beast

iLION12345_1 said:


> I already told you the reason why PA went for the SH-15. SH-15 was the only lighter SP trialed by PA among half a dozen competitors, that should easily show PAs preferences.
> 
> They Seem to have made a decision between a much better deal on a lighter SP without an auto-loader and some extra features or a heavier SP with all the features but a worst deal and possible loss of ToT. The kinetic performance of the guns themselves I cannot comment on since no information was released, but I’d comfortably say the Chinese gun is as good (if not better, seeing as PA has picked it) as it’s competitors in that regard.
> 
> PLA has little need for the air-transportability or the lower weight of SH-15 due to their doctrine.



I don't think any transfer of ToT is mention in the deal plus, during the trial, PA tow many of these SP to hilly mountains in Pakistan. I dare to bet none of those western SP will perform as good as SH-15 in mobility and speed in changing of position to avoid enemy counter fire.

You can have the best armour protection, best auto loader, longer firing range but if u are slow in switching your firing position or being limited in terrain u can travel due to its weight. It is good as zero becos enemy can easy launch counter fire to wipe out your position.

SH-15 won PA tender purely by its virtue spec.


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## MH.Yang

Bilal. said:


> Interesting. They have a BONUS style sensor-fused top attack munition.
> 
> 
> I think it’s PLZ05.


PLZ05 has six wheels, and that is seven wheels. That is a new type of self-propelled gun under development.

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## Scorpiooo

Whats


MH.Yang said:


> PLZ05 has six wheels, and that is seven wheels. That is a new type of self-propelled gun under development.


Whats the name of that gun ?


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## kursed

Beast said:


> I don't think any transfer of ToT is mention in the deal plus, during the trial, PA tow many of these SP to hilly mountains in Pakistan. I dare to bet none of those western SP will perform as good as SH-15 in mobility and speed in changing of position to avoid enemy counter fire.
> 
> You can have the best armour protection, best auto loader, longer firing range but if u are slow in switching your firing position or being limited in terrain u can travel due to its weight. It is good as zero becos enemy can easy launch counter fire to wipe out your position.
> 
> SH-15 won PA tender purely by its virtue spec.


Munition TOT is very much part of the deal.

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## MH.Yang

Scorpiooo said:


> Whats
> Whats the name of that gun ?



I don't know, Now we call it PLZ05B. 
But the name must be wrong.


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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> I don't think any transfer of ToT is mention in the deal plus, during the trial, PA tow many of these SP to hilly mountains in Pakistan. I dare to bet none of those western SP will perform as good as SH-15 in mobility and speed in changing of position to avoid enemy counter fire.
> 
> You can have the best armour protection, best auto loader, longer firing range but if u are slow in switching your firing position or being limited in terrain u can travel due to its weight. It is good as zero becos enemy can easy launch counter fire to wipe out your position.
> 
> SH-15 won PA tender purely by its virtue spec.


I mean no offense, but you know absolutely nothing about the trials or PAs requirements and you’re well known for being extremely biased towards China. You have absolutely zero sources to prove your claims that western SPs wouldn’t do as well in the mountains as Chinese ones, And there’s nothing to point towards that fact anyways given the Western SPs cover for their increased weight with increased power and better transport platforms (SH-15 doesn’t have a dedicated platform below It, it uses a generic military truck, and even had a few ground clearance issues due to that, but you don’t see me bringing those up because they’re minor issues). I swear to god if the SH-15 had an auto-loader you’d be vehemently defending it right now for the sole fact that it’s made by the _*glorious Chinese republic that can do absolutely no wrong*_.

You’re trying to defend the Chinese SP despite me not even calling it bad. I already explained what The possible reasons could be for PAs decision to pick it, that obviously means it passed the trials when it came to range, mobility and other specifications, that doesn’t mean a compromise couldn’t have been made. So Please, Stop making stuff up, thank you.

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## Beast

iLION12345_1 said:


> I mean no offense, but you know absolutely nothing about the trials or PAs requirements and you’re well known for being extremely biased towards China. You’re trying to defend the Chinese SP despite me not even calling it bad. So Please, Stop making stuff up, thank you.


Are you telling me PA pick a SP that don't fits it requirement? What I mention are correct. Those bulky western SP don't perform well in hilly terrain. Condition for the SP to operate in those terrains are one of the requirement. SH-15 win the contest.


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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> Are you telling me PA pick a SP that don't fits it requirement?


No I’m telling you that you don’t know anything about PAs requirements. There’s a difference. I’ll leave it at that.

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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> I think you are bluffing. I have stay here long enough to see this type of misinfo against Chinese arms. I am the one who break the news of VT-4 being chosen by PA which of cos a lot of Pakistanis like you who are biased against Chinese arms refuse to accept.
> 
> And how did I know it? Becos we have our sources from Chinese side with engineer working on the project who happened to interact with us in Chinese forum. His statement totally contradict all the BS I heard from here. And here as I have predicted correctly. VT-4 is chosen by PA as it's MBT to face India T-90S.
> 
> Please don't have that kind of attitude that only Pakistan has the source to know the Info becos end of the day, the arms you received are produced by none other than Chinese themselves.


I don’t doubt that there are many Chinese members here who are Unbiased in their posting, are actually knowledgeable about Chinese weaponry, and have links to the Chinese defense industry, I respect all such posters. You are not one of them. You find an issue where there is none.

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## Beast

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t doubt that there are many Chinese members here who are Unbiased in their posting, are actually knowledgeable about Chinese weaponry, and have links to the Chinese defense industry, I respect all such posters. You are not one of them. You find an issue where there is none.


And as if Pakistanis here no biased against Chinese arms and u r are definitely one of them. I have even seen Pakistanis member make the claim about JF-17 more sophisticated than J-10C before PAF chosen it as new fighter.

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## araz

Beast said:


> And as if Pakistanis here no biased against Chinese arms and u r are definitely one of them. I have even seen Pakistanis member make the claim about JF-17 more sophisticated than J-10C before PAF chosen it as new fighter.


Have you gone bonkers or something? No one is biased. However people are allowed to express an opinion which reflects their experiences/knowledge. The Chinese have made substantial progress in their armaments industry and some of their products are good. In other areas they still lag behind. You make it look as if pointing out a deficiency is a slur on China. This sort of attitude is uncalled for and counterproductive. 
The other aspect of this debate is when one buys an item it may not be the best in the market but may be adequate for the purpose. The reasons are many, price being one of them, ease of service, easy replacement, provision of TOT allowing buyer to establish the industry are others. It is not a question of having chosen the best but what suits us and our pockets. What is so difficult to understand with this concept? 
Your incessent arguments are becoming boring and reflect poorly on the relationship between China and Pakistan and your own knoeledge. Please stop this silly childish attitude or you will be asked to leave.
A

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## Beast

araz said:


> Have you gone bonkers or something? No one is biased. However people are allowed to express an opinion which reflects their experiences/knowledge. The Chinese have made substantial progress in their armaments industry and some of their products are good. In other areas they still lag behind. You make it look as if pointing out a deficiency is a slur on China. This sort of attitude is uncalled for and counterproductive.
> The other aspect of this debate is when one buys an item it may not be the best in the market but may be adequate for the purpose. The reasons are many, price being one of them, ease of service, easy replacement, provision of TOT allowing buyer to establish the industry are others. It is not a question of having chosen the best but what suits us and our pockets. What is so difficult to understand with this concept?
> Your incessent arguments are becoming boring and reflect poorly on the relationship between China and Pakistan and your own knoeledge. Please stop this silly childish attitude or you will be asked to leave.
> A


I just want to have a last sentence. If you think there is no biased from Pakistanis side regards to Chinese weapon, you are just in denial. I am not claiming it all but definitely certain element from Pakistan that will regard anything from China as inferior to west. One of your long time senior members like @Super Falcon is great example. I think I do not want to explain it more.

Plenty of mis comparison, plenty of biased and mis information. Like some who can claim VT-5 is not a good tank. In what way, its not a good tank in its category as light tank? Precisely, it has the tag as light tank. Its not gonna fight a M1A2 or Challenger 2 on a sea level flat hard terrain. So that means its not a good tank? @iLION12345_1

Finally, flip thru the VT-4 tank earlier thread and see how much hatre and misinformation against this tank from many long time Pakistanis members , only for haters to eat humble pie when its selected by PA as it main strike force. Go ahead and keep denial there is no biased and no preference. I been here long enough to know whats happening.

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## SD 10

Beast said:


> I just want to have a last sentence. If you think there is no biased from Pakistanis side regards to Chinese weapon, you are just in denial. I am not claiming it all but definitely certain element from Pakistan that will regard anything from China as inferior to west. One of your long time senior members like @Super Falcon is great example. I think I do not want to explain it more.
> 
> Plenty of mis comparison, plenty of biased and mis information. Like some who can claim VT-5 is not a good tank. In what way, its not a good tank in its category as light tank? Precisely, it has the tag as light tank. Its not gonna fight a M1A2 or Challenger 2 on a sea level flat hard terrain. So that means its not a good tank? @iLION12345_1
> 
> Finally, flip thru the VT-4 tank earlier thread and see how much hatre and misinformation against this tank from many long time Pakistanis members , only for haters to eat humble pie when its selected by PA as it main strike force. Go ahead and keep denial there is no biased and no preference. I been here long enough to know whats happening.


there is a biase , or maybe i noted it but it will go away with time as Pakistan further transition away from the west but it will take time. Most of the people here grow up watching american arms kicking Indian *** but with time Chinese arms will do the same and the opinion will change. Its easier for me to say mainly because i am much younger than the normal audience of pdf so give it some time. No one disputes China's role in helping Pakistan and if someone does, well there is no bigger fool than them but leave it. Opinions will change with time. We Pakistanis are slow learners!

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## araz

Beast said:


> I just want to have a last sentence. If you think there is no biased from Pakistanis side regards to Chinese weapon, you are just in denial. I am not claiming it all but definitely certain element from Pakistan that will regard anything from China as inferior to west. One of your long time senior members like @Super Falcon is great example. I think I do not want to explain it more.
> 
> Plenty of mis comparison, plenty of biased and mis information. Like some who can claim VT-5 is not a good tank. In what way, its not a good tank in its category as light tank? Precisely, it has the tag as light tank. Its not gonna fight a M1A2 or Challenger 2 on a sea level flat hard terrain. So that means its not a good tank? @iLION12345_1
> 
> Finally, flip thru the VT-4 tank earlier thread and see how much hatre and misinformation against this tank from many long time Pakistanis members , only for haters to eat humble pie when its selected by PA as it main strike force. Go ahead and keep denial there is no biased and no preference. I been here long enough to know whats happening.


People on an open forum are allowed to express an opinion based on what they know. @iLION12345_1 has merely exercised his right and when questioned has presented the reasons for the opinion. As explained earlier Pakistan's choice of a weapons system is not only based on the best in the world but what is financially and otherwise viable as a project. If someone says XYZ system lacks ABC hardware it is not a sin to say so nor is it a bias.
People like you and a few more of your ilk are entirely the reason why senior posters have stopped posting due to harrassment by posters when faults of a system are counted.
I can respond to the glaring deficiencies in the Chinese system in the 90s as was related to me by senior PAF officials but obviously things have moved on . Are the Chinese now the best?........ NO. Are they getting there? Very definitely Yes.
The point I am trying to make is on several occasions the Chinese have come back with better products when one product is rated as deficient. Its relationship with PAF has evolved because of this aspect. It is what makes them better in that they learn from the input they get and improve their products more to satisfy the customer. I can give you 3-4 examples. We know the Z10 was sent back after extensive trials. J10A had problems poimted out by PAF. JFT radar saga with Leonardo Radars and then Chinese production of KLJ7 improved on PAF demands for a competitive system. Block 2 had MAWS from Indra till the Chinese came out with the ones on Block 3.
054A missiles are not as good as the ones on MILGEMS, till the Chinese come out with better ones.
I personally dont see a problem with pointing out what is wrong with systems as the Chinese make an effort to get a better system on board.
Your failure to understand this is simply a very myopic view point and needs to stop. I know you have been shown the door before for similar behaviour and if you dont stop this it will happen again.
The ball is very much in your court.
A

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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> I just want to have a last sentence. If you think there is no biased from Pakistanis side regards to Chinese weapon, you are just in denial. I am not claiming it all but definitely certain element from Pakistan that will regard anything from China as inferior to west. One of your long time senior members like @Super Falcon is great example. I think I do not want to explain it more.
> 
> Plenty of mis comparison, plenty of biased and mis information. Like some who can claim VT-5 is not a good tank. In what way, its not a good tank in its category as light tank? Precisely, it has the tag as light tank. Its not gonna fight a M1A2 or Challenger 2 on a sea level flat hard terrain. So that means its not a good tank? @iLION12345_1
> 
> Finally, flip thru the VT-4 tank earlier thread and see how much hatre and misinformation against this tank from many long time Pakistanis members , only for haters to eat humble pie when its selected by PA as it main strike force. Go ahead and keep denial there is no biased and no preference. I been here long enough to know whats happening.


Again, you find a problem where there is none, I didn’t even call the VT-5 bad, it’s just that you lack basic comprehension skills. I said it’s not good for Pakistan because we have no use for it, a proper MBT is more useful for Pakistan. That’s why we buy the VT-4 and make the Al-Khalid-1. Though to be fair, the VT-5 is only average at best itself when it comes to light tanks.

As for your VT-4, it’s criticism was justified, it’s not a good MBT when compared to what else is available in the world apart from maybe in _*some*_ of it’s C4I and Fire control systems BUT It’s the best by a long margin in the Indo-Pak theatre though, and the best option available for Pakistan.
In fact China doesn’t make any tank that’s comparable to the best of what’s available in the west or Russia, the ZTZ-99A is also average at best. It improves upon firepower and protection a little bit over the VT-4, but falls behind in technology, so it ends up at the same place. but don’t take it from me, I’m far too biased.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493555159116312576
@iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal

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## mingle

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493555159116312576
> @iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal


Another great option for PA to induct as new Gun and can be use to replace old M109 the way China coming Up in military Hardware field is simply amazing no doubt they will leave US behind in future


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## Zarvan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493555159116312576
> @iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal


This one and newly upgraded Turkish one could be our next target. Also I hope in towed artillery we consider AH 4.


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493555159116312576
> @iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal


The M109 is 38 or 39 calibers depending on the model. Even then, there might be minor changes in the loading and firing systems that may make the ammo incompatible, either way, If PA purchases any new Chinese SP guns, it’ll try its best to have the gun shared with the SH-15, or at least use the same ammo.

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## HRK

Desert Fox 1 said:


> M109 is 52.ca


I think M-109 which we have are 155mm/39 caliber

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## Zarvan

HRK said:


> I think M-109 which we have are 155mm/39 caliber


Sir @PanzerKiel is angry with me these days but I hope he can understand shed some light on the question you are raising. Also future of our tracked artillery systems where we stand and where we may go from here.

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## AsifIjaz

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, you find a problem where there is none, I didn’t even call the VT-5 bad, it’s just that you lack basic comprehension skills. I said it’s not good for Pakistan because we have no use for it, a proper MBT is more useful for Pakistan. That’s why we buy the VT-4 and make the Al-Khalid-1. Though to be fair, the VT-5 is only average at best itself when it comes to light tanks.
> 
> As for your VT-4, it’s criticism was justified, it’s not a good MBT when compared to what else is available in the world apart from maybe in _*some*_ of it’s C4I and Fire control systems BUT It’s the best by a long margin in the Indo-Pak theatre though, and the best option available for Pakistan.
> In fact China doesn’t make any tank that’s comparable to the best of what’s available in the west or Russia, the ZTZ-99A is also average at best. It improves upon firepower and protection a little bit over the VT-4, but falls behind in technology, so it ends up at the same place. but don’t take it from me, I’m far too biased.



Wow.. what a beautiful (and for me atleast credible too) way to answer a question and lay bait as well. I am sure he will come back charging and the history will repeat itself. 
Please don't stop as we get to learn a thing here and there.. and I love the way you take the mick outta him

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## Phantom.

HRK said:


> I think M-109 which we have are 155mm/39 caliber


Yep all M109 A variants use the 39cal gun only the original M109 used the 20 Caliber Gun the the difference between our M109s A2s and A5s is the Gun A5s use XM284 Gun which gives extended range compared to the M185 Gun on A2 the range of normal rounds increases from 18km to 22km and the range of HERA increases 23.5km to 30km.IMO the replacement of M109 will not come any time soon considering the fact PA bought Ex italian Pcs afew years ago the range of M109 can be a problem in Counter battery fire but that can be taken care of by MBRLs Gids makes extended range rockets with 45km range.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493555159116312576
> @iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal


Yes almost all chinese export SPHs are compatible with Nato Standard M-107 155MM HE rounds.SH-15s are also compatible with Nato standard rounds.

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## Raja Porus

Phantom. said:


> Yep all M109 A variants use the 39cal gun only the original M109 used the 20 Caliber Gun the the difference between our M109s A2s and A5s is the Gun A5s use XM284 Gun which gives extended range compared to the M185 Gun on A2 the range of normal rounds increases from 18km to 22km and the range of HERA increases 23.5km to 30km.IMO the replacement of M109 will not come any time soon considering the fact PA bought Ex italian Pcs afew years ago the range of M109 can be a problem in Counter battery fire but that can be taken care of by MBRLs Gids makes extended range rockets with 45km range.
> 
> Yes almost all chinese export SPHs are compatible with Nato Standard M-107 155MM HE rounds.SH-15s are also compatible with Nato standard rounds.
> View attachment 816437


Thanks

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## HRK

Phantom. said:


> Yep all M109 A variants use the 39cal gun only the original M109 used the 20 Caliber Gun the the difference between our M109s A2s and A5s is the Gun A5s use XM284 Gun which gives extended range compared to the M185 Gun on A2 the range of normal rounds increases from 18km to 22km and the range of HERA increases 23.5km to 30km.IMO the replacement of M109 will not come any time soon considering the fact PA bought Ex italian Pcs afew years ago the range of M109 can be a problem in Counter battery fire but that can be taken care of by MBRLs Gids makes extended range rockets with 45km range.
> 
> Yes almost all chinese export SPHs are compatible with Nato Standard M-107 155MM HE rounds.SH-15s are also compatible with Nato standard rounds.
> View attachment 816437


thnx .... 

BTW do you have any knowledge or aware about the rumour related to the rest of Italian M-109L fleet which were on offer ... ???

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> thnx ....
> 
> BTW do you have any knowledge or aware about the rumour related to the rest of Italian M-109L fleet which were on offer ... ???


As far as I know,
"Eaten up in kickbacks".

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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> As far as I know,
> "Eaten up in kickbacks".


very saddening affair ....

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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> As far as I know,
> "Eaten up in kickbacks".


btw any chance of acquiring them in future ... ??

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> btw any chance of acquiring them in future ... ??


I have no idea about it ...

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> btw any chance of acquiring them in future ... ??








The *M114 155 mm howitzer* is a towed howitzer developed and used by the United States Army. It was first produced in 1942 as a medium artillery piece under the designation of *155 mm Howitzer M1*.

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## Raja Porus

Lahore Garrison: SH-15 have been officially inducted; COAS was also present - ISPR.
Hopefully they'll be there on 23 March.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503592012464930820

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## Raja Porus

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503592012464930820


So these guns have been inducted in the 2 Artillery Division- Central Command.





Also the number of Command scrolls indicate that 3 NEW regiments have been raised.

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## Path-Finder

Barrels of storm howitzers are entrusted to domestic technology!​For the barrel maintenance of T-155 Storm howitzers in the TAF inventory, the existing device and cleaning methods were examined and a domestic production automatic barrel cleaning device, Çingi, was developed.







*Çıngı, a domestic production automatic barrel cleaning device,* has been developed for the barrel maintenance of the *Fırtına howitzer* , which makes a great contribution to the firepower *of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF) .
SSTEK Defense Industry Technologies Inc., a subsidiary of the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB),* operates to support the domestic and national development and production of critical technologies for the defense of the country.
*SSTEK's subsidiaries DELTAV, ULAK, GGTEK and TRTEST* will introduce their products and works at the company's booth, which will take place *at the 14th International Defense Industry Fair (IDEF'19) . SSTEK* will also introduce the first product bearing its own brand at *IDEF'19 . *Launching the first domestic automatic barrel cleaning device, the company will exhibit 155, 120 and 203 millimeter versions of the product called *Çıngı at the fair.*



Barrel life is reduced in traditional methods​In parallel with the rapid development of today's weapon systems and ammunition, the importance of barrel cleaning and maintenance is increasing. While barrel maintenance and cleaning methods require cost-effective solutions, traditional cleaning methods; It brings along logistical problems such as high labor requirement and long maintenance time.

While cleaning the barrel takes a lot of time under current conditions, it is done manually by a group of soldiers with a brush longer than the barrel, special oil and fabric. Since the cleaning is completely done according to the dexterity of the soldier, the sensitivity of cleaning changes. This situation reduces the barrel life due to not reaching the desired cleaning level and causes high costs afterwards.
*Cringing* , which has the ability to work automatically in barrel cleaning , greatly shortens the cleaning times, cleans the barrel with the desired precision and prevents copperization that may occur in the barrel.
Locality will bring many advantages​*The locally produced Çıngı* was manufactured with a unique design for the barrel maintenance of the T-155 Storm howitzers, which are in the TAF inventory, by examining the existing equipment and cleaning methods.
With the advantage of local supply and spare parts in design and manufacturing, maximum failure feedback in every part of the battlefield, effective use of the barrels and precise shooting capability are aimed. *The Çıngı,* which was manufactured as a prototype in various barrel diameters , was tested under real combat conditions and was put into the service of the Turkish defense industry and the needy authorities under the *SSTEK brand .
Çıngı,* which is shaped in line with the needs of *TAF user unions ; *It can operate successfully in *barreled weapon systems on land, sea and air platforms . With its easy-to-carry design, Çıngı* performs barrel cleaning in the shortest time and with minimum labor requirement.



Weapon system not out of service​The device is designed to start cleaning from the muzzle of the muzzle if desired, or from the breech section if desired, and can move forward and backward independently in the barrel by means of the sensitive sensors on it. The vibrating movement of the forward/backward-moving brush system in the front of the device removes the dirt and debris formed in the barrel from the surface, while the brush in the rear section cleans the barrel by sweeping the inside of the barrel with the rotation effect of the grooves and sets. The cleaning effect is increased by spraying the cleaning liquid in the device into the entire barrel or to the desired parts of the barrel. Barrel cleaning can be done in less than 30 minutes for the storm howitzer. Weapon systems do not need to be taken out of service during the cleaning process.
Designed with military standards and waterproof for ease of transport, the carrying case weighs less than 22 kilograms, including all accessories for the 155 millimeter kit.









Fırtına obüslerinin namluları, yerli teknolojiye emanet! - Yeni Akit


TSK envanterinde bulunan T-155 Fırtına obüslerinin namlu bakımı için, mevcut cihaz ve temizleme yöntemleri incelenerek, yerli üretim otomatik namlu temizleme cihazı Çıngı geliştirildi.




www.yeniakit.com.tr





*put this on the shopping list!*

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Sir @PanzerKiel is angry with me these days


@PanzerKiel Please invite Zarvan to dinner in Artillery mess Rawalpindi (now garrison mess). 
Order their signature chicken karahi and seekh kebabs with raita and fluffly nans. Then gift Zarvan a scaled down model of SH-1 gun with his name engraved on the barrel

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> @PanzerKiel Please invite Zarvan to dinner in Artillery mess Rawalpindi (now garrison mess).
> Order their signature chicken karahi and seekh kebabs with raita and fluffly nans. Then gift Zarvan a scaled down model of SH-1 gun with his name engraved on the barrel


Cant oblige you in this case. After the meal, he will start bashing me and the mess that soldiers are dying around and here army is enjoying.

As i said before, some people hold on to things like this for a long time.






PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion


Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds. Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any...



defence.pk

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> Cant oblige you in this case. After the meal, he will start bashing me and the mess that soldiers are dying around and here army is enjoying.
> 
> As i said before, some people hold on to things like this for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds. Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Wo jo saddar mey naya M47 lagaya hai chowk mey usko wahan sey utarna chahiyey cause thats a waste of money u know (we need these tanks for coin ops) , instead us M47 ko overhaul karkey usmey zarvan bhai ko driver seat par betha kar Quetta bhejna chahiyey. 😃

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## Dazzler

PanzerKiel said:


> Cant oblige you in this case. After the meal, he will start bashing me and the mess that soldiers are dying around and here army is enjoying.
> 
> As i said before, some people hold on to things like this for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds. Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Attitude of military/ rangers towards civilians is plain disgusting. Speaking from a recent personal experience. 

Off topic.

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## Primus

Is it true the army/fc still operates the QF 25 Pounder?

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## Ghost 125

Dazzler said:


> Attitude of military/ rangers towards civilians is plain disgusting. Speaking from a recent personal experience.
> 
> Off topic.


attitude of everyone towards everyone else in this country is disgusting, rangers or army is not the only ones, i think they are still better thn, police, lawyers, civil servants etc etc etc

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## Dazzler

Maarkhoor said:


> Some civilian needs dressing.


So do you. Don't quote me again.

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## Maarkhoor

Dazzler said:


> So do you. Don't quote me again.


I will, If I need to quote you.

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> Please invite Zarvan to dinner in Artillery mess Rawalpindi (now garrison mess).
> Order their signature chicken karahi and seekh kebabs with raita and fluffly nans


Kiya yaad karwa diya.


Dazzler said:


> Attitude of military/ rangers towards civilians is plain disgusting


Nowadays, military (army) has become very cautious of its interactions with civs because of the recent trends. Rangers behave often more like civilians or police.


Huffal said:


> Is it true the army/fc still operates the QF 25 Pounder?


They can still blow up bad guys.

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## Dazzler

Ghost 125 said:


> attitude of everyone towards everyone else in this country is disgusting, rangers or army is not the only ones, i think they are still better thn, police, lawyers, civil servants etc etc etc


Partly agreed


----------



## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Cant oblige you in this case. After the meal, he will start bashing me and the mess that soldiers are dying around and here army is enjoying.
> 
> As i said before, some people hold on to things like this for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds. Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


My problem will be food. And as for Artillery Sir no towed showed this time. Yes we had little time but now can we expect more use of SP even in mountainous areas like Azad Kashmir or we would see new towed also ?

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## Dazzler

Maarkhoor said:


> Why negative ratting ?
> 
> @WebMaster @Horus @waz
> 
> 
> I will, If I need to quote you.


Koi aur bacha hai to usko bhi tag krdo.

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## Maarkhoor

Dazzler said:


> Koi aur bacha hai to usko bhi tag krdo.


@Slav Defence @The Eagle @LeGenD @krash 

Wish granted....

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## bananarepublic

Dazzler said:


> Attitude of military/ rangers towards civilians is plain disgusting. Speaking from a recent personal experience.
> 
> Off topic.


If you makes yourself look a little bit of a big shot. They mellow immediately
But, I get disappointed when I do see soldiers being rude and obnoxious


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## Reichmarshal

Signalian said:


> @PanzerKiel Please invite Zarvan to dinner in Artillery mess Rawalpindi (now garrison mess).
> Order their signature chicken karahi and seekh kebabs with raita and fluffly nans. Then gift Zarvan a scaled down model of SH-1 gun with his name engraved on the barrel


Too much "tamatar " in the karahi, so much so that it tastes sweet.....but than again when u have been eating it for as long as one can remember u develop a craving for it.

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## Dazzler

bananarepublic said:


> If you makes yourself look a little bit of a big shot. They mellow immediately
> But, I get disappointed when I do see soldiers being rude and obnoxious


Strange but true.


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## Primus

Desert Fox 1 said:


> They can still blow up bad guys.


I dont doubt its ability to blow up the bad guys. 

Is it upgraded in any way tho?

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> Too much "tamatar " in the karahi, so much so that it tastes sweet.....but than again when u have been eating it for as long as one can remember u develop a craving for it.


I think we have discussed that already on some other thread. Try shinwari one instead of normal


Huffal said:


> I dont doubt its ability to blow up the bad guys.
> 
> Is it upgraded in any way tho?


It is mostly deployed by FCNA and FC.

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## Inception-06

Huffal said:


> I dont doubt its ability to blow up the bad guys.
> 
> Is it upgraded in any way tho?



It can, haven’t you read about Kargil war, Pakistans main choices was WW2 Era Artillery gun,The *BL 5.5-inch gun* was a British artillery gun introduced during the middle of the Second World War to equip medium batteries.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508847777857552386
Am pretty sure these upgrades are for mass production of towed artillery gun given the expansion is of the HIT Gun Factory.

@PanzerKiel @Desert Fox 1

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## Slav Defence

Dazzler said:


> Koi aur bacha hai to usko bhi tag krdo.


کیوں بیچارے کا دل توڑتے ہو۔ نرم سا تو ہے بیچارہ🤦

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## gl-CHN

好消息谢谢分享


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## Primus

Inception-06 said:


> It can, haven’t you read about Kargil war, Pakistans main choices was WW2 Era Artillery gun,The *BL 5.5-inch gun* was a British artillery gun introduced during the middle of the Second World War to equip medium batteries.


I havent. Please do link any articles regarding it.

Thanks in advance 
--------------------------------------------------
Does Pakistan have any sort of guided munition which is similar to Excalibur or Krasnopol in its inventory?

@PanzerKiel @iLION12345_1 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Desert Fox 1

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## Phantom.

Huffal said:


> I havent. Please do link any articles regarding it.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> --------------------------------------------------
> Does Pakistan have any sort of guided munition which is similar to Excalibur or Krasnopol in its inventory?
> 
> @PanzerKiel @iLION12345_1 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Desert Fox 1


According to @kursed PA also inducted laser guided shells with SH-15s it could be GP155 or 155A as these are offered with SH-15

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## Maula Jatt

gl-CHN said:


> 好消息谢谢分享


very eloquent

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## Joe Shearer

Sainthood 101 said:


> very eloquent


Just sneak up on him and whisper in his ear 

不客气 随时

Watch him jump.


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## Signalian

Joe Shearer said:


> Just sneak up on him and whisper in his ear
> 
> 不客气 随时
> 
> Watch him jump.


Which US weapon system is associated with the term - whispering death ?



Inception-06 said:


> It can, haven’t you read about Kargil war, Pakistans main choices was WW2 Era Artillery gun,The *BL 5.5-inch gun* was a British artillery gun introduced during the middle of the Second World War to equip medium batteries.


PA took 130mm also up there.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> PA took 130mm also up there.


... And airlifted 105s into IHK.

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## Great Janjua

PanzerKiel said:


> IHK


IOK

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## Inception-06

PanzerKiel said:


> ... And airlifted 105s into IHK.


Which 105 was airlifted US made or Chinese origin?



Signalian said:


> Which US weapon system is associated with the term - whispering death ?
> 
> 
> PA took 130mm also up there.


New Pakistani
Made 155mm Howitzer was shown here:

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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> Which 105 was airlifted US made or Chinese origin?
> 
> 
> New Pakistani
> Made 155mm Howitzer was shown here:
> 
> View attachment 872186


CAD model of 155 mm M-114 towed howitzer

EDIT: CAD model of 155mm M-198 towed howitzer

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> CAD model of 155 mm M-114 towed howitzer


After CAD come the translation in CNC, computerised numerical control production !

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## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> Which 105 was airlifted US made or Chinese origin?
> 
> 
> New Pakistani
> Made 155mm Howitzer was shown here:
> 
> View attachment 872186


M198 155mm model , written on top
But yea HIT has developed its own towed 155mm howitzer which was shown at Ideas soft launch as well and the howitzer seems to have passed PA trials and is now awaiting mass production. HIT is building new facility for enmasse production of the towed howitzer as they likely have gotten a big order.

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## Primus

farooqbhai007 said:


> M198 155mm model , written on top
> But yea HIT has developed its own towed 155mm howitzer which was shown at Ideas soft launch as well and the howitzer seems to have passed PA trials and is now awaiting mass production. HIT is building new facility for enmasse production of the towed howitzer as they likely have gotten a big order.


Are they any specs for it, or is it too early to tell?


----------



## Inception-06

farooqbhai007 said:


> M198 155mm model , written on top
> But yea HIT has developed its own towed 155mm howitzer which was shown at Ideas soft launch as well and the howitzer seems to have passed PA trials and is now awaiting mass production. HIT is building new facility for enmasse production of the towed howitzer as they likely have gotten a big order.



Do you have any picture of that developed Howitzer by HIT ?


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## Signalian

HRK said:


> CAD model of 155 mm M-114 towed howitzer
> 
> EDIT: CAD model of 155mm M-198 towed howitzer


Dil torr diya 😊.



Inception-06 said:


> Which 105 was airlifted US made or Chinese origin?
> 
> 
> New Pakistani
> Made 155mm Howitzer was shown here:
> 
> View attachment 872186


Pack howitzers are American or Italian.

I doubt that PA will admit HIT’s 155 mm medium howitzer. Fingers crossed

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## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> Do you have any picture of that developed Howitzer by HIT ?


Sat image of it undergoing testing was shared a while back from 2021. Looked similar to M198 in imagery with a lack of apu but according to panzerkiel apu is a requirement as well.


Signalian said:


> Dil torr diya 😊.
> 
> 
> Pack howitzers are American or Italian.
> 
> I doubt that PA will admit HIT’s 155 mm medium howitzer. Fingers crossed


? HIT 155mm howitzer was shown officially in a promo video during IDEAS soft launch ceremony few week back.

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## HRK

Signalian said:


> Dil torr diya 😊.


IA during coming IDEAS exhibition we will have a good news

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## farooqbhai007

farooqbhai007 said:


> Sat image of it undergoing testing was shared a while back from 2021. Looked similar to M198 in imagery with a lack of apu but according to panzerkiel apu is a requirement as well.
> 
> ? HIT 155mm howitzer was shown officially in a promo video during IDEAS soft launch ceremony few week back.







picture is from open source info .

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## Zarvan

Inception-06 said:


> Do you have any picture of that developed Howitzer by HIT ?


We are all waiting for the pictures.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> ... And airlifted 105s into IHK.


Can you provide the source... Only for further reading.






farooqbhai007 said:


> M198 155mm model , written on top
> But yea HIT has developed its own towed 155mm howitzer which was shown at Ideas soft launch as well and the howitzer seems to have passed PA trials and is now awaiting mass production. HIT is building new facility for enmasse production of the towed howitzer as they likely have gotten a big order.


This means we'll be seeing alot of field regts being converted to medium. The first being those of Inf divs?
Btw imagine a PA div supported by 5-7 med regt instead of 3-5 fld regts.

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## PanzerKiel

Raja Porus said:


> Can you provide the source... Only for further reading.


Sources are first hand accounts of officers who are still around us and who went with these guns.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources are first hand accounts of officers who are still around us and who went with these guns.







Sir any chance of this beast coming to Pakistan.

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources are first hand accounts of officers who are still around us and who went with these guns.


Panzerkiel will the PA go for the acquisiton of only a single type of towed 155mm howitzer (HIT one) or are multiple towed 155mm howitzers on the table.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources are first hand accounts of officers who are still around us and who went with these guns.


I've heard a first hand account of the 14.5mm that was carried to Kargil (IIRC) for interdiction of the road.

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> Panzerkiel will the PA go for the acquisiton of only a single type of towed 155mm howitzer (HIT one) or are multiple towed 155mm howitzers on the table.


As of now, multiple options are on the table.

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## Bilal.

Raja Porus said:


> I've heard a first hand account of the 14.5mm that was carried to Kargil (IIRC) for interdiction of the road.



57mm too.








Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com


By GHULAM HASNAIN The Line of Control, PakistanDragging deeply on a cigarette, Major Nadeem Ahmed contemplates his map, which shows more than a dozen




content.time.com


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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> As of now, multiple options are on the table.


Using different guns of same caliber has any affects on logistics?
Still, is it to induct greater numbers as soon a possible?

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Panzerkiel will the PA go for the acquisiton of only a single type of towed 155mm howitzer (HIT one) or are multiple towed 155mm howitzers on the table.


What I knew was that when first Pakistan Army started trials of 155 MM wheel mounted artillery gun the initial plan was to go for two different ones in large numbers. Now we are going for SH 15 as of now. Can't say if other one would come or not. Now for Towed Guns if the plan is same or not that is good question

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## Raja Porus

Bilal. said:


> 57mm too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com
> 
> 
> By GHULAM HASNAIN The Line of Control, PakistanDragging deeply on a cigarette, Major Nadeem Ahmed contemplates his map, which shows more than a dozen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> content.time.com


Thanks for sharing.
I think the account which was narrated by that officer also included an anti-aircraft wpn which was carried in disassembled form... And I suppose this the one he was talking about.
I must have confused 14.5 with 57.

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## Signalian

Raja Porus said:


> Can you provide the source... Only for further reading.


Mortar is still Infantry's best friend in mountains.

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> Sources are first hand accounts of officers who are still around us and who went with these guns.


IF possible could you or your source write about it I mean a short article summarize the issues of logistics, air lift of gun itself, and supply line .... ?? or any interesting incident etc etc

That will be an interesting read ... 



PanzerKiel said:


> As of now, multiple options are on the table.


In your opinion what are the future prospects of HIT gun ... ??? 

would it be inducted in PA or not ... ???

Any idea of its performance in trials

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## Raja Porus

General Karamat says:
Kargil came up several times. The Dras-Kargil Road was an interdiction target for indirect artillery fire. During my tenure, Indians interdicted Neelam Valley Road, cutting off AJK [Azad Jammu and Kashmir]. We had a major planning conference to develop a response. We decided to construct a bypass and continue interdiction
on Dras-Kargil Road. This did not work and Indians continued. In the next
conference we considered physical interdiction of the road but decided the consequences would create problems for locals and hamper covert operations in IHK [Indian Held Kashmir] (the freedom struggle was in full swing). We decided
to move heavy weapons forward and carry out interdiction with direct fire. This was enormously effective. The Indians got the message and backed [off] on Neelam
Valley Road. In any case, we had decided to develop an alternative route for
logistics into AJK—this was completed.



PerhapsKaramat is talking about this incident.

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## iLION12345_1

M109A2s were also used during Kargil conflict.

Edit: not IN Kargil itself, during the conflict, I had meant to elaborate this more but a WiFi outtage happened, my bad.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> M109A2s were also used in Kargil.


Difficult to believe, since even 57mm and 105mm had to be disassembled.
Would love to read your source.

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## blain2

iLION12345_1 said:


> M109A2s were also used in Kargil.


Not true.

Pakistan has ample 155mm Towed artillery, the terrain does not allow the employment of SP guns.

Type-59 130mm was the mainstay of the Pakistani arty in Kargil.



Raja Porus said:


> General Karamat says:
> Kargil came up several times. The Dras-Kargil Road was an interdiction target for indirect artillery fire. During my tenure, Indians interdicted Neelam Valley Road, cutting off AJK [Azad Jammu and Kashmir]. We had a major planning conference to develop a response. We decided to construct a bypass and continue interdiction
> on Dras-Kargil Road. This did not work and Indians continued. In the next
> conference we considered physical interdiction of the road but decided the consequences would create problems for locals and hamper covert operations in IHK [Indian Held Kashmir] (the freedom struggle was in full swing). We decided
> to move heavy weapons forward and carry out interdiction with direct fire. This was enormously effective. The Indians got the message and backed [off] on Neelam
> Valley Road. In any case, we had decided to develop an alternative route for
> logistics into AJK—this was completed.
> 
> 
> 
> PerhapsKaramat is talking about this incident.


This was one of the major reasons as to why the Kargil operation happened in the first place.

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## Signalian

iLION12345_1 said:


> M109A2s were also used in Kargil.


Kargil sector itself or during escalation near LOC ?

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> M109A2s were also used in Kargil.


Thats not true, other than commander FCNA no body knew wt the fu@#k was going on n I mean no one including mush, who by the way was made the biggest a$s of all.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> Kargil sector itself or during escalation near LOC ?


I meant to elaborate more but the WiFi outtage last night hit me before i could, obviously that single sentence paints a weird picture. Nobody was disassembling or airlifting M109A2s across the border or into the mountains tops. I meant that they were used during the Kargil conflict and the relevant escalations (which I’m aware is not exactly the topic that was being discussed so it gave a false image). My source is my own father, because he was one of the guys manning them 
I’ve never heard the fully story from him, I’ll have to ask him and his mates where they were stationed exactly.


blain2 said:


> Not true.
> 
> Pakistan has ample 155mm Towed artillery, the terrain does not allow the employment of SP guns.
> 
> Type-59 130mm was the mainstay of the Pakistani arty in Kargil.
> 
> 
> This was one of the major reasons as to why the Kargil operation happened in the first place.





Raja Porus said:


> Difficult to believe, since even 57mm and 105mm had to be disassembled.
> Would love to read your source.





Reichmarshal said:


> Thats not true, other than commander FCNA no body knew wt the fu@#k was going on n I mean no one including mush, who by the way was made the biggest a$s of all.


True or not, I’m Not sure what that has to do with what assets were being used.

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## Signalian

iLION12345_1 said:


> I meant to elaborate more but the WiFi outtage last night hit me before i could, obviously that single sentence paints a weird picture. Nobody was disassembling or airlifting M109A2s across the border or into the mountains tops. I meant that they were used during the Kargil conflict and the relevant escalations (which I’m aware is not exactly the topic that was being discussed so it gave a false image). My source is my own father, because he was one of the guys manning them
> I’ve never heard the fully story from him, I’ll have to ask him and his mates where they were stationed exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True or not, I’m Not sure what that has to do with what assets were being used.


Near Sialkot ? Jammu area ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Signalian said:


> Near Sialkot ? Jammu area ?


Lo ji aik hor Gunner da munda mil gya

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Signalian said:


> Near Sialkot ? Jammu area ?


Pasroor

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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> Near Sialkot ? Jammu area ?


They were deployed to Sialkot at a more recent time, a certain incident just a couple of years back. 

During Kargil, I’m not sure, from what I recall it was in the north so might have been jammu, don’t quote me on that though, haven’t been able to confirm yet.


----------



## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563124350588702725pics via @INTELPSF on twitter

@PanzerKiel SLC-2E was acquired with SH15s or was a different counter batter radar acquired with SH15 package.

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563124350588702725pics via @INTELPSF on twitter
> 
> @PanzerKiel SLC-2E was acquired with SH15s or was a different counter batter radar acquired with SH15 package.


Different radar. For counter battery fire of SH15, there is another platform.

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lo ji aik hor Gunner da munda mil gya


seems to be from SP again.



WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Pasroor


I thought there is a going to be an extended cantt somewhere in that region.

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563124350588702725pics via @INTELPSF on twitter
> 
> @PanzerKiel SLC-2E was acquired with SH15s or was a different counter batter radar acquired with SH15 package.


A bit surprising to see a system in conjunction with SP forces, tested up in the mountains. Every picture gives some sort of hints. Couple that with any current circumstances and modernization.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> I thought there is a going to be an extended cantt somewhere in that region.


There is... Very extended.

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## farooqbhai007

Signalian said:


> A bit surprising to see a system in conjunction with SP forces, tested up in the mountains. Every picture gives some sort of hints. Couple that with any current circumstances and modernization.


1 vehicle system , perfect for mountain ops.
Similar to why Indians made a mountain version of swathi. Which has 50km range.

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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> 1 vehicle system , perfect for mountain ops.
> Similar to why Indians made a mountain version of swathi. Which has 50km range.


Radar can face a lot of issues in mountains. And PA might not test a system used with Armored forces there.

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## farooqbhai007

Signalian said:


> Radar can face a lot of issues in mountains. And PA might not test a system used with Armored forces there.


Perhaps was a deployment , afaik several units of SLC2E had been spotted in some Garrison in the plains several months ago.

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> 1 vehicle system , perfect for mountain ops.
> Similar to why Indians made a mountain version of swathi. Which has 50km range.


Is it based on the same vehicle what's the difference?


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582379662583689216


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## Signalian

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582379662583689216


@Inception-06 Can you please identify all pieces from top to bottom ?

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## Path-Finder

whats the purpose of the 122mm?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Path-Finder said:


> whats the purpose of the 122mm?


Foreplay.

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## khansaheeb

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> While its a key component in war, we really need to move to 21st century weapons , such as smart bombs , automatic loading artillery - and ideally SAMs
> 
> These artillery units are sitting ducks from threat from air and helicopters
> 
> But its still wonderful that , we are self reliant in this key technology area


Pakistan needs to study the Ukraine-Russia conflict in detail and find out what works and what doesn't in real combat. A full spectrum analysis from the satellites, cyber and intelligence to the bullets being fired. Blind purchases to fill quantities isn't going to work we have to purchase the right products for the right adversary and time.

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## MikeZulu

Signalian said:


> @Inception-06 Can you please identify all pieces from top to bottom ?


Top to bottom:
105 mm How
122 mm How
122 mm How D 30
130 mm Gun
155 mm How M198
8 inch (Self-propelled) How M110
155 mm (SP) How M109(Could be A2, A5 or Lima)
SH-15 155 mm Wheeled SP How

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## emotionless_teenage

Path-Finder said:


> whats the purpose of the 122mm?


It has the lightweight munition of 105mm with the range of 155mm

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Inception-06 Can you please identify all pieces from top to bottom ?



Already done in the discription of the Video easy task.

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## MikeZulu

Path-Finder said:


> whats the purpose of the 122mm?


122 mm shell has much higher explosive to weight ratio than other shells in our inventory, thus having more destructive power i.e kill radius than 105 and not just because of heavier calibre.

Also, the D-30 variant is amazingly accurate, especially in terms of correction of fire, and is often nicknamed by gunners as 'sniper gun.

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## Signalian

MikeZulu said:


> 122 mm shell has much higher explosive to weight ratio than other shells in our inventory, thus having more destructive power i.e kill radius than 105 and not just because of heavier calibre.
> 
> Also, the D-30 variant is amazingly accurate, especially in terms of correction of fire, and is often nicknamed by gunners as 'sniper gun.


Aiming, elevation and Rotation is quick and easier than most guns

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## Signalian

@PanzerKiel 

Status of look alikes in PA ?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

SH-15 155mm self-propelled howitzer


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## Path-Finder

on your marks. ready, steady. SPECULATION!!

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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 889664
> 
> 
> View attachment 889665
> 
> 
> on your marks. ready, steady. SPECULATION!!


He is any artillery officer, though....



Signalian said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Status of look alikes in PA ?


Do we have M981?


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## HRK

Raja Porus said:


> Do we have M981?


no only M901 in very limited number

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## Raja Porus

HRK said:


> no only M901 in very limited number


36

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## Signalian

Raja Porus said:


> 36


I think PK quoted 24 or lesser



Raja Porus said:


> He is any artillery officer, though....
> 
> 
> Do we have M981?


I am guessing that a local attempt through foreign help is there, APC mounted.

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## PanzerKiel

Raja Porus said:


> 36


More than that now.



Signalian said:


> I think PK quoted 24 or lesser


Much more than that.

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> am guessing that a local attempt through foreign help is there, APC mounted.


Can you tell more about that?
@farooqbhai007 @iLION12345_1 @HRK

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> More than that now.
> 
> 
> Much more than that.


Those are the Talha TOW variants or the ‘M901 itself

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Those are the Talha TOW variants or the ‘M901 itself


M901 itself. Talhas are separate.

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## HRK

Raja Porus said:


> Can you tell more about that?
> @farooqbhai007 @iLION12345_1 @HRK


Sorry I have now idea ...

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> M901 itself. Talhas are separate.


When did we get more. Also why don't we bring them to 23 March parade?

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## PanzerKiel

Raja Porus said:


> When did we get more. Also why don't we bring them to 23 March parade?


There are several pieces of equipment, in service with all three services, which have not been displayed at all during the parade for obvious reasons. Moreover, i was just going tthrough wiki article on Pakistan Army...in the list of equipment, even they show a figure of 50 for M901s.....interesting.

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## iLION12345_1

Raja Porus said:


> Can you tell more about that?
> @farooqbhai007 @iLION12345_1 @HRK





Raja Porus said:


> When did we get more. Also why don't we bring them to 23 March parade?


Some things are best left unsaid until they are ready to be revealed. sometimes it feels like there’s more things that _*aren’t *_shown in the parade than those that are 😂

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> M901 itself. Talhas are separate.


The original numbers of M-901s were increased. last time the M-113 variants were bought from Italy.

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## IblinI

Interesting pic, the first test photo of an unmanned turret for next gen SPG.

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## MikeZulu

IblinI said:


> Interesting pic, the first test photo of an unmanned turret for next gen SPG.
> 
> View attachment 905463


For SH-16 probably, if I'm not wrong?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1605833252832526336

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## Path-Finder

SH-15 using the laser homing artillery shell in training.

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## blain2

Signalian said:


> The original numbers of M-901s were increased. last time the M-113 variants were bought from Italy.


I suspect you are referring to M-109s, correct?

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## Signalian

blain2 said:


> I suspect you are referring to M-109s, correct?


901- the TOW variant of M-113

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