# Arjun News & Discussions



## HAIDER

Bangalore: The Indian Army would conduct field trials of the indigenous main battle tank Arjun "in a month or two" along with the T-72 battle tanks, Chief of Indian Army Gen J J Singh said today.

The Army had placed order for 124 Arjun tanks and "we will find out during trials this summer where exactly we can exploit the capabilities of these tanks in the best manner and accordingly, we will use the tanks," he told reporters here.

He admitted that there had been delay in delivery and induction of Arjun but added "I believe when a country makes any state-of-the-art equipment, the production cycle takes a long time."

"But, we are going to try out these tanks and based on their performance, we will be able to decide how best we can exploit them," the Army chief said.

Asked how the Army rated Arjun in its class, he said, "as per the literature, it is supposed to be the state-of-the-art and compares very favourably with the equipment of similar class anywhere in the world." The Arjun tank, he said, had most of the advanced features in its gunnery, firing systems, fire control system, communication system and survivability in an NBC (Nuclear, Biological and chemical) environment.

Asked if, considering the upswing in Indo-US relations, the Indian Army favoured shopping of military equipment from the US, Singh said "it is a government's decision."

He said the Army projects its requirements from the national security point of view and "if it can be produced indigenously, that is our first preference. If not, the second preference is that we produce within our country but get technology from outside and any Public Sector Undertaking or other company can do that. We prefer that."

However, Singh said, if nothing could be done "like this", "then we would like to meet the requirements from imports."

Emphasising that the equipment itself was the "most important criterion," he said, "if it is the best equipment and if we are getting it from them, we will be happy to receive them."

Asked if the Army was "open" to receiving the equipment from the US, he said "yes. We are happy to receive the equipment which is in the best class from any source and it is the

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## HAIDER

Bangalore: The Indian Army would conduct field trials of the indigenous main battle tank Arjun "in a month or two" along with the T-72 battle tanks, Chief of Indian Army Gen J J Singh said today.

The Army had placed order for 124 Arjun tanks and "we will find out during trials this summer where exactly we can exploit the capabilities of these tanks in the best manner and accordingly, we will use the tanks," he told reporters here.

He admitted that there had been delay in delivery and induction of Arjun but added "I believe when a country makes any state-of-the-art equipment, the production cycle takes a long time."

"But, we are going to try out these tanks and based on their performance, we will be able to decide how best we can exploit them," the Army chief said.

Asked how the Army rated Arjun in its class, he said, "as per the literature, it is supposed to be the state-of-the-art and compares very favourably with the equipment of similar class anywhere in the world." The Arjun tank, he said, had most of the advanced features in its gunnery, firing systems, fire control system, communication system and survivability in an NBC (Nuclear, Biological and chemical) environment.

Asked if, considering the upswing in Indo-US relations, the Indian Army favoured shopping of military equipment from the US, Singh said "it is a government's decision."

He said the Army projects its requirements from the national security point of view and "if it can be produced indigenously, that is our first preference. If not, the second preference is that we produce within our country but get technology from outside and any Public Sector Undertaking or other company can do that. We prefer that."

However, Singh said, if nothing could be done "like this", "then we would like to meet the requirements from imports."

Emphasising that the equipment itself was the "most important criterion," he said, "if it is the best equipment and if we are getting it from them, we will be happy to receive them."

Asked if the Army was "open" to receiving the equipment from the US, he said "yes. We are happy to receive the equipment which is in the best class from any source and it is the decision of the government.


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## HAIDER

Moderator can you please delete this post...posted twice same thread,
my fault


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## Keysersoze

*India's Arjun MBT remains on the starting block
An Indian parliamentary committee has urged the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to seek foreign assistance to overcome continuing problems with the Arjun main...
23-Mar-2007

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml


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## EagleEyes

Post all the updates here.


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## Keysersoze

Another intersting post on Tanks in general. (including the Arjun) got it from IDF


The media has recently been criticizing the Arjun for its cost, developmental problems, weight, lack of indigenous components, and the fact that the army has no Ã¢â¬ÅrequirementÃ¢â¬Â for it. They conveniently nit pick about ArjunÃ¢â¬â¢s finances and DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s inefficiencies but they quietly leave out details about the T-90 purchase. For example, the government choosing to deal with Rosvoorouzenie instead of Uralvagonzavod State United Enterprises, despite the formers 15-20 percent higher price tag. When questioned, Ã¢â¬ÅThe official explanation for routing purchase through Rosvoorouzenie, however, is that it is the nodal agency for all defense deals with Moscow and that New Delhi has been dealing with it since its inception.Ã¢â¬Â The government has not made any further comments on why they made this decision. Compare the T-90 to the T-72 and it is easy to see differences and similarities. The Indian Army needed modern MBTs to keep up with PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s later acquisitions; however, the already existent T-72M1 Ajeya, if upgraded to the Ã¢â¬ÅsÃ¢â¬Â standard, had the capacity to mount the T-90 fire control system, newer 125 mm tank gun, 1000hp engine, guided anti tank rounds, SBIR and anti-tank guided missile protective system. This would be about 5 or 6 crores cheaper than the T-90 for each model. Although the T-72Ã¢â¬â¢s upgraded FCS and thermal sights have also proven to be a problem, army personnel believe that these can be rectified with the addition of an air-conditioning unit that would keep temperatures in the tank down. ArjunÃ¢â¬â¢s detractors also are quick to state that it did poorly in army trials and tests. The reason could be attributed to the comprehensive nature of the testing; it remains to be seen if this same level of testing was conducted upon the T-90s before their rushed induction. Ã¢â¬ÅInitially, the tank engines worked well, as the trials were being conducted at night. Problems, however, emerged once daytime trials began, with the power packs de-rating and at least one of three tank engines suffering extensive damage in high desert temperatures.Ã¢â¬Â Despite the problems encountered, the MOD went ahead with the acquisition of the tank, dismissing the objections as Ã¢â¬Åeasily fixable.Ã¢â¬Â The Arjun on the other hand suffered engine failures only after rigorous testing in the middle of the day. Also, one must take into account the dimensions of the engine. The T-90Ã¢â¬â¢s power-plant was in the 800hp class and had to propel 40 tons; whereas, the ArjunÃ¢â¬â¢s 1400hp power-plant had to push along 58 tons. The Arjun's powerplant operated under much more stress.

The ArmyÃ¢â¬â¢s solution, to the FCS problem, was to integrate the Catherine TI sight with the IG-46 from Belarus, which further delayed indigenous licensed production. The T-90 was rushed into service under the pretense of Ã¢â¬Ånational security.Ã¢â¬Â According to the government, the country could not wait for DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s Arjun to be ready. Instead, the induction and production of an overpriced foreign tank, which had not been tested thoroughly in all situations and climates, was to be integrated. Ideally, the T-90 would have been integrated into the defense industry quickly and production would be in full swing. The reality is very different with full production still years away: Ã¢â¬ÅThe T-90Ã¢â¬â¢s IG-46 sights were to be made at the Opto Electrics Factory at Dehra Dun, the gun at the Ordnance Factory Board facility at Rishikesh and its 1,000-horsepower engine by Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. All the three projects stand deferred, official sources said.Ã¢â¬Â In the past, IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s license production T-72 Ajeyas has had certain complaints regarding quality. Ã¢â¬ÅIn order to manufacture T-72 tanks, Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi procured 1237 sets of hydraulic control system (Code-66), from Hindustan Machine Tools (HMT) Ltd., Ajmer between August 1993 and April 2000 against four supply orders of Ministry of Defense placed between September 1987 and February 1999. Code-66 items comprised of value device, pipeline assembly etc. Indian Army had complained about the failure noticed in Code-66 ex-HMT assembled in T-72 Tanks. A meeting was therefore arranged in December 2000 between HMT, Controller of Quality Assurance/Heavy Vehicles, Avadi and HVF and it was held that though some damages could have been caused to some components in transit, poor quality of Code-66 ex-HMT could not be ignored. It was therefore decided to backload all the available stock of pipelines/hoses held by HVF to HMT for revalidation of quality problem and also for servicing/rectification.Ã¢â¬Â What assurances are there that we will not see similar or even newer problems with the domestically produced T-90s? The government is naÃÂ¯ve to think that the armyÃ¢â¬â¢s MBT problems are solved by making outright purchases and by signing production deals. If the MOD continues to overlook quality control procedures and does not impose stringent regulations, new problems will continually arise with the T-90 and licensed production will be further delayed.

The government approved an additional purchase of 300 T-90s because of delays in assembly. The justification: the need for modern MBTS to replace the Vijayantas and T-55s and that these newer acquisitions would tip the armored scales in IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s balance. The newer acquisition T-90s are still facing glitches and are generally considered not Ã¢â¬Åbattle-worthy.Ã¢â¬Â The T-90s have not met their objectives through a lack of ammunition, continuing technical problems with the FCS, and continual delays with the production line. Ã¢â¬ÅInitially, the T-90S fired Russian-made AMK-338 and AMK-339 rounds, but these were soon exhausted in training and presently the tanks are without any ammunition as their 125 mm smoothbore guns have not yet been configured to fire the locally manufactured AMK-340 rounds.Ã¢â¬Â The AMK-340 rounds have been a source of controversy. As a result of factory defects, IA had to discard almost 150,000 rounds as AMK-340 rounds have caused barrel bursts, which have resulted in serious injury and death among army personnel. The other main justification for the T-90 purchase was the transfer of technology. The AT-11 Sniper provided the T-90s with a 5km reach on enemy tanks and helicopters. The superior ERA and electronic counter measures gave it a much higher survival rating than the previous Ajeyas. In the original deal, the Indian T-90s did not come with the Shtora suite; however, it is reported that the Indian govt. is in negotiation for Shtora systems for the additional T-90s and for upgraded BMPs. It would have been cheaper to have ordered the Shtora systems along with the original deal from the factory. The AT-11 sniper (Russian designation refleks) had its share of technical problems as well. Ã¢â¬ÅSecunderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), which was scheduled to start production of 9M119 Refleks missiles for the T-90 early this year, has also fallen badly behind schedule amid failed trials. BDL is believed to have sought technical assistance from the Russians in building the Refleks.Ã¢â¬Â In comparison, the Arjun has already been integrated with the Israeli Lahat and historically, the Israelis have proven to be more reliable with spares and more competent with technical assistance.

DRDOÃ¢â¬â¢s critics have expressed their frustration over the issue of accountability and the fact that DRDO needs better planning. The T-90 deal is the epitome of bad planning and miscommunication on several levels. On the home front, we have the technical delays and glitches, the fact that we are overpaying the Russians for each tank, the rushed service (based on in-sufficient testing) and inadequate steps to making HVF more efficient. On the Russian side, Ã¢â¬Åmany accessory manufacturers of 'Uralvagonozavod' were not ready for realization of such a large project. According to the Sverdlovsk Governor, he was horrified when he found out how the matters are going on for implementation of the contract. At that time, Uralvagonozavod had only a complete contract with the Chelyabinsk tractor factory on delivery of tank engines. It looked like the partners from Izhevsk, Magnitogorsk, northwest part of Russia had only recently have learnt that they are the participants of the project too. Some plants of VPK (military production complex) that were involved in the project already had suspended the manufacturing facilities, and have dismissed their people.Ã¢â¬Â The delays, in license production, are not without additional costs. For example: the cost of purchasing a T-72M1 from the OFB is still higher than purchasing refurbished or even new build T-72s from abroad. When the production line at Avadi decongests and the T-90 is being churned out, the government will realize that after the costs of production are taken into account, the final price will be higher than the foreign produced T-90s which were supplied in kits. Furthermore, the end product T-90 still has multiple parts' suppliers; this combination increases the chances of not having accountability in the event of glitches or malfunctions. When the problems with the thermal sights first happened, they were covered under factory warranty but as the years go on, it will be up to Indian companies to provide quality assurance and service. When they fail to do this, as in the past, DRDO will need to step in; the technical experience they gain with the Arjun could be invaluable in solving future glitches. When the T-72s had the code-66 quality problem, further delays, in production, were caused by the dispute between HMT and HVF, Ã¢â¬ÅHMT, however, refused to undertake repair/revalidation at their cost on the ground that (i) stores had been damaged while storing at HVF, heavy damage had taken place due to improper loose packing done in old and extraordinary big packing cases, (ii) items supplied from 1996 onwards had not been used, (iii) studs in the oil priming pump were broken due to mishandling at HVF, (iv) leakage through breather hole was due to aging effect of oil seal since the stores were kept unused for long duration at HVF and (v) warranty period.Ã¢â¬Â

The necessity for the immediate purchase of T-90s was attributed to the obsolescence of older tank models in the tank inventory; however, ArjunÃ¢â¬â¢s recent critics have forgotten that these tanks (T-55s and Vijayantas) should have been replaced with newer build T-72s from Avadi years before the T-90 purchase. Instead of pointing at DRDO and blaming the Arjun project for the shortfall in numbers, perhaps these critics could look to the mismanagement of the existing production line. In one year, for example, Avadi had the potential to create 100-200 tanks per annum; in reality only 70 were produced. In the authorÃ¢â¬â¢s opinion, it would have been more effective to incorporate the upgraded technological design features (which made the T-90 attractive) into an already existent but expanded T-72 production line. The threat of PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s T-80s, Type-85s, Al-khalids and Al Zarrars could have been abated through a combination of newer generation ATGMs and upgraded T-72s. The acquisition of fire and forget Atgms, such as the American Javelin or the Israeli Gill, would have provided many of the infantry divisions stationed near the LOC with the ability to repulse any major armored thrusts at a fraction of the cost. Along with the implementation of larger numbers of upgraded T-72s, the IA would be in a better position in the event of a ground war. Many of the older generation T-72s have passed their operational life and need to be replaced. It would be more efficient to replace some of these models with newer builds instead of conducting upgrades and surplus eastern block T-72s could have been a cheap alternative. Although the ArjunÃ¢â¬â¢s cost is higher per model, it reflects different abilities and design characteristics. The media continually compares a Leo-2 style tank with a Russian T-series. Arjun's delays reflect the changes in IA specifications and parameters. Ã¢â¬ÅThe first 120 tanks to be built would cost $4.2 million each, while other cost estimates places the figure at $5.6 million each per tank by 2001, given a purchase of 124 tanks to equip two regiments. Production of the first batch of tanks might take more than the planned five years, given the capacity at the Avadi factory.Ã¢â¬Â The unit price could decrease further with additional orders for Arjun turrets and components, which would be utilized in the Ã¢â¬ËKaranÃ¢â¬â¢ program. The capabilities between the T-72S, T-80, and the T-90 are marginal. As with aircraft, the deciding factor is the sub-systems and technology that one incorporates. In the modern battlefield, one must not forget about the qualitative edge; however, one must also not forget the age old rule of numbers. 1000 upgraded T-72s offer much more of a tactical advantage than 200 T-90s; and the marginal difference can and is made up through air-power, advanced atgms, and support helicopters. One needs to realize the value of indigenous defense; the Ã¢â¬ÅmiracleÃ¢â¬Â T-90 purchase is not a complete or efficient solution. Although the production line will stabilize in a few years and the glitches will be worked out, the cost in resources will be exorbitant. Although there is no use in crying over spilt milk, one can always look to the past and learn not to repeat the same mistakes. Hopefully, the government will realize how to better manage facilities and utilize resources and hopefully the media can take this into account and not lay the sole blame on DRDO.


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## PakSniper

Yup, I read that report as well awhile ago, also from the get go, I have a feeling this project might be dropped or delayed even further. Recently, India is going to buy Russian T-90s about 1000 of them, and 300 (that to cause of delay in assembly) will come from Russia. I just find it hard to believe a tank will take 2-3 decades to build, M1A1 took about 5-10 years (80's) and bring it into production starting from 1985-1993 and US have about 8,000+ of them and on top of that export with license build for Egypt, and US build for KSA. And the new M1A2 (Mechanized Godzilla rolling land).


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## Adux

Its a stupid piece of Engneering, Anyways they should be buying a western tank on ToT. Learn it, and then go for it again. Drop the Project now.


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## Keysersoze

Foreign technical know-how demanded for Arjun tanks
New Delhi, March 18: Even seven years after it was cleared for serial production, the country's main battle tank Arjun is yet to pass Army user trials and now recommendations have been made to DRDO to seek foreign tie-ups to overcome shortcomings in the tanks.

Army had put out requirement of 3,500 new tanks for its strike and armoured formations and with the induction of 300 T-90 tanks and upgradation of about 700 T-72 tanks, it is still far short of the mark.

Though the Army has given the nod for 300 more upgraded T-90 tanks to be built at the heavy vehicle factory at Avadi near Chennai, under technology transfer, the remaining Army tank rolls had to be filled by the Mbt Arjun.

Taking exception to what it labelled as "inordinate delay" in induction of these tanks, the parliamentary standing committee on defence has recommended that to remove any flaw or snag, the DRDO should take foreign help.

"The Ministry of Defence should think seriously as how to comply Arjun's requirements in a time-bound manner with the help of private industry-- joint ventureship or otherwise," the high-level committee said in its latest report just tabled in Parliament.

For the past one year, the Army and DRDO have been saying that Arjun would undergo comparative trails against Russian Mbt's T-90 and T-72m, but the exercise is yet to take off.

The committee in its report censured the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) saying it had failed the country in efforts to make it self-reliant in weapons systems and platforms and called for its total revamp by making it accountable through independent performance audits.

"It is perturbing," the committee said, adding "though the government accorded clearance for an indigenous MBT Arjun in May 1974, even after the lapse of 32 years, DRDO could not execute the mission."

"Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of the MBT project from Rs 15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs 306 crore in 2005," it said, noting "yet no tank in service for all this money".

Army has serious reservation on the tank saying its large silhouette makes it a "sitting duck" in a tank to tank confrontation. Chief of Army Staff Gen J J Singh has said that Army could use the tank in different role in subsidiary sectors of confrontation.



Out of the 124 tanks ordered for production by the government, only 15 tanks have so far been built by the Avadi plant and only five have been given to armoured formations for trials.

While Arjun has been face teething problems, the country's main adversary Pakistan has produced and inducted the MBT al Khalid and Chinese Red Army has already produced fourth of the series of MBTs.

DRDO officials try to make light of the defects claiming that Arjun is far superior to both T-90 and upgraded T-72 tanks boasting of a second generation thermal imager to give it capability to engage targets at 2,500 metres.

"The tank has now been made capable of firing homing anti-tank Lahat missiles from its gun barrel, a capability which only T-90 has," the officials said.

While Pakistan has secured orders for export of al Khalid tanks to Persian Gulf and Arab states, the DRDO is saying that MBT Arjun has a good potential of exports to some "African countries".

They say the entire bulk of 124 tanks would be produced in 2008, but as per figures placed before the Defence Ministry, the Indian tank, priced at Rs 17.20 crore, is proving to be far costlier option than Russian T-90 tanks which the Army is currently buying for just Rs 12 crore a piece.

But for the Army, Arjun seems to be poser as the tank weighs 60 tons compared to 50-ton T-90 and T-72 tanks.

DRDO officials said once they get the Army nod, the heavy vehicle factory could roll out 50 tanks a year by 2009 and they are saying that initial snags could be rectified when future version of Arjun rolls out.

Bureau Report


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8417


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## Keysersoze

Incidently I have discoverd th reason for the "boxy" shape to the Arjun.
Apparently. If you slope Ceramic armour you expose more of the tiles in the armour package to damage.


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## con

keysersoze said:


> Foreign technical know-how demanded for Arjun tanks
> New Delhi, March 18: Even seven years after it was cleared for serial production, the country's main battle tank Arjun is yet to pass Army user trials and now recommendations have been made to DRDO to seek foreign tie-ups to overcome shortcomings in the tanks.
> 
> Army had put out requirement of 3,500 new tanks for its strike and armoured formations and with the induction of 300 T-90 tanks and upgradation of about 700 T-72 tanks, it is still far short of the mark.
> 
> Though the Army has given the nod for 300 more upgraded T-90 tanks to be built at the heavy vehicle factory at Avadi near Chennai, under technology transfer, the remaining Army tank rolls had to be filled by the Mbt Arjun.
> 
> Taking exception to what it labelled as "inordinate delay" in induction of these tanks, the parliamentary standing committee on defence has recommended that to remove any flaw or snag, the DRDO should take foreign help.
> 
> "The Ministry of Defence should think seriously as how to comply Arjun's requirements in a time-bound manner with the help of private industry-- joint ventureship or otherwise," the high-level committee said in its latest report just tabled in Parliament.
> 
> For the past one year, the Army and DRDO have been saying that Arjun would undergo comparative trails against Russian Mbt's T-90 and T-72m, but the exercise is yet to take off.
> 
> The committee in its report censured the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) saying it had failed the country in efforts to make it self-reliant in weapons systems and platforms and called for its total revamp by making it accountable through independent performance audits.
> 
> "It is perturbing," the committee said, adding "though the government accorded clearance for an indigenous MBT Arjun in May 1974, even after the lapse of 32 years, DRDO could not execute the mission."
> 
> "Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of the MBT project from Rs 15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs 306 crore in 2005," it said, noting "yet no tank in service for all this money".
> 
> Army has serious reservation on the tank saying its large silhouette makes it a "sitting duck" in a tank to tank confrontation. Chief of Army Staff Gen J J Singh has said that Army could use the tank in different role in subsidiary sectors of confrontation.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of the 124 tanks ordered for production by the government, only 15 tanks have so far been built by the Avadi plant and only five have been given to armoured formations for trials.
> 
> While Arjun has been face teething problems, the country's main adversary Pakistan has produced and inducted the MBT al Khalid and Chinese Red Army has already produced fourth of the series of MBTs.
> 
> DRDO officials try to make light of the defects claiming that Arjun is far superior to both T-90 and upgraded T-72 tanks boasting of a second generation thermal imager to give it capability to engage targets at 2,500 metres.
> 
> "The tank has now been made capable of firing homing anti-tank Lahat missiles from its gun barrel, a capability which only T-90 has," the officials said.
> 
> While Pakistan has secured orders for export of al Khalid tanks to Persian Gulf and Arab states, the DRDO is saying that MBT Arjun has a good potential of exports to some "African countries".
> 
> They say the entire bulk of 124 tanks would be produced in 2008, but as per figures placed before the Defence Ministry, the Indian tank, priced at Rs 17.20 crore, is proving to be far costlier option than Russian T-90 tanks which the Army is currently buying for just Rs 12 crore a piece.
> 
> But for the Army, Arjun seems to be poser as the tank weighs 60 tons compared to 50-ton T-90 and T-72 tanks.
> 
> DRDO officials said once they get the Army nod, the heavy vehicle factory could roll out 50 tanks a year by 2009 and they are saying that initial snags could be rectified when future version of Arjun rolls out.
> 
> Bureau Report
> 
> 
> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8417



This is one of those "milk it again" reports. Take all the old comments ad put them together and make a report.The tanks are already in production and this report talks about obtaining israel's help. And for what?

The previous report sums up the problems at the production facilities. With years of TOT and license productions those dorks cannot produce an tank from scratch. DRDO doesnot produce tanks. Production agencies at Avadi do. They are only good at assemblying them not producing.


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## con

Adux said:


> Its a stupid piece of Engneering, Anyways they should be buying a western tank on ToT. Learn it, and then go for it again. Drop the Project now.



Mate if Avadi cannot assembly together a T-90 do you think they will fare better in assembling a western tank. Problem is not with Arjun,problem is with the units that manufactured them. They have to modernise to produce a tank of Arjun's type. Until them you will keep hearing about "Arjun being sitting duck" crap :wall:


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## Keysersoze

I don't think it is an issue of production (or if it is, it is a simple thing to correct) The issue is that of goverment agencies and their ability to screw things up. I shudder to think the number of changes required over the years to the original design.

I think the problem started waaaay back in the 70's when the tank was originally envisaged. I think that the Indian Govt bit off more than it could chew back then. And thus it created a ripple effect which has carried on for 32 years. The nature of tank design evolved over the last 30 years. Consequently the design of the Arjun was forced to keep pace with these developments. The problem is that the requirements are still one step ahead of the abilities to make them real.


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## con

keysersoze said:


> I don't think it is an issue of production (or if it is, it is a simple thing to correct) The issue is that of goverment agencies and their ability to screw things up. I shudder to think the number of changes required over the years to the original design.
> 
> I think the problem started waaaay back in the 70's when the tank was originally envisaged. I think that the Indian Govt bit off more than it could chew back then. And thus it created a ripple effect which has carried on for 32 years. The nature of tank design evolved over the last 30 years. Consequently the design of the Arjun was forced to keep pace with these developments. The problem is that the requirements are still one step ahead of the abilities to make them real.



The development of Arjun was an example of varying requirements. DRDO always complains that IA just reads a brochue from international companies and demands that it be included in Arjun.That's why you see cermanic armour,MTU engine,120 mm NATO style gun,blast off panel,BMS etc.None of them were present in any of the IA current tanks. If you dont firm your requirement, development will never stop. I currently work in the same kind of situation where my client keeps changing requirements so much that we had to throw off everything every 3 months. :wall: 

The first test invariably showed lot of problems. Meanwhile as Pakistan moved on with T-series tanks IA lost interest in Arjun.By the way plan to build one was carried out in the late 70,but the funding started after 80s.
Hence I would not consider it 30 years of development.

Ofcourse since there was no base for a western style tank,it added to the overall delay.

And now the production.Productions lines are jammed with orders for T-72 upgrade,T-90 TOT. Hence they dont bother about Arjun production while is much more complicated. There was news about another Arjun specific line would be opened at BEML(another company which produces heavy vehicles). IA wants 50 Arjuns per year. Avadi is not able to keep up this number as they are overloaded with T-72 and T-90s.


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## gnat

completely agreed


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## Adux

*43rd Armour Regiment and ex-officerâs satisfied with Arjun Tank *
7 May, 2007 (FIDSNS)

Replying to Standing Committe on Defence(2004-2005) the representative of the Ministry of Defence during oral evidence has stated âWe have no difficulty to go this summer with the five tanks which the Army would like to put through its own accelerated user trials. Arjun has been checked by the DRDO alongwith 43 Armour Regimentâ

On April 22, 2006, in an âKnow Your Armyâ exhibition, when asked by a reporter on Arjun tank, Brig (Retd) Prabir Goswami replied âitâs a highly-sophisticated tank with several state-of-the-art components and a âvery high first round hit capability,â a must to survive in an increasingly hostile battlefield having multiple anti-tank threats compounded by developed terrain restrictions on Indiaâs western border.â

On being asked that the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) developed MBT Arjunâs 120 mm-calibre rifled gun was of the same diameter as the M256 smoothbore gun on the US Armyâs M1A2 Abrams, the expert said, âThe gun is very important but it is a part of a weapon system - the whole tank - and the difference is that the Americans are old hands at this game.

âThe American advantage of private firms manufacturing prototypes for trials, as part of a competitive environment entailing selection of the best, bespeaks of the amount of finances these firms are willing to spend to develop such sophisticated weaponry. Still, the MBT has several good points and should help the DRDO develop more efficient models in future.â

Brig (Retd) Prabir Goswami who commanded 16 Independent Armoured Brigade during Operation Vijay the Kargil conflict is also awarded with Vishisht Seva Medal.

Arjun Tank and DRDO have been under attack from vested interest from both within the Indian Army, middlemen and foreign agencies who would not like to see India to produce major weapon systems indegenously. While there have doctored media report in media against Arjun Tank, the Indian Army Tank users do not have problems with Arjun Tank. The T-90S tanks imported from Russia are under cloud as the tanks have developed defects. The tanks were imported without proper testing and despite the T-90S failing tests in Indian desert conditions. T-90S is not ment for Indian conditions, where as, Arjun Tank has been tested more than 100,000 kilometers and perfected in Indian conditions.


http://*****************/43rd-armour-regiment-and-ex-officers-satisfied-with-arjun-tank/


----------



## con

> The production of Main Battle Tank Arjun has commenced at Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) -- Avadi, Chennai. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 Tanks at a cost of Rs. 1760 crore. As on 31st March 2007, HVF has made an expenditure of Rs. 1270.82 crore against this indent.
> 
> An indent for manufacture of 124 Tanks has been placed on Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000. Five Tanks have already been handed over to Army in 2005 and nine more Tanks are ready for delivery. The remaining quantity is expected to be delivered by 2009.
> 
> All issues related to production of MBT Arjun have been resolved and the production is getting stabilized. At present there is no such proposal to take cooperation of private sector as a joint venture. However, private sector is involved in the project as supplier of various components/assemblies.
> 
> Presently, Army is using tanks imported from various countries. This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today.
> 
> The Arjun (Mk I) was developed after three decades of identifying requirements, design, evaluation, redesign process involving the DRDO and the Indian Army. Weighing in at 58.5 tons, it is significantly heavier than the Soviet-era T-series tanks used presently by the Indian Army, and requires changes to the army's logistics establishment. This along with concerns about the imported content and the required changes in production facilities has slowed adoption by the Indian Army.
> 
> Armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, it is capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds and the Israeli semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile. In addition, it is armed with a 12.7 mm AA machine gun and a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.
> 
> A special prefragmented round is also under development. This shell has a proximity fuse designed to be used against low-flying aircraft, such as attack helicopters. This round could now be supplanted by the LAHAT ATGM which is to be acquired for the Arjuns.
> 
> The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 90% Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to the extreme conditions during tests. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and Thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) is the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army, will have an all digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The design and development of the BEL IGMS (Indigenous Gunners Main Sight), the name for the local fire control system, is a huge step forward for Indian industry, given its demanding specifications. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight, allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun was to be supplied by an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode, but space constraints may have led to this requirement being dropped.
> 
> The tank incorporates GPS based navigation systems, sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, developed by DRDO allows it to network with other fighting units. It is protected by a Laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.
> 
> Arjun has been designed with Western design practices in mind, especially reflected in its crew protection features. With a crew of four, it incorporates heavy composite armour and significant crew protection measures, including ammunition separated from the crew, and blow off panels on the turret bustle, and an integrated fire detection and suppression system. It also incorporates nuclear, biological and chemical protection. Further, Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) panels can be added, though the current Kanchan armour is deemed sufficient for the Arjuns tank-killing role. The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" (gold) composite armour. A new honeycomb design Non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is being tested on the Arjun and is reported to be working perfectly. The turret has been designed with the ergonomics of Indian Army troops in mind. The typical crew consists of a Gunner, Commander, Loader and Driver.
> 
> The engine and transmission are provided by MTU and Renk respectively. The engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and gearbox. A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit. The tracks which were being supplied by Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company. The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations. The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design. The Arjun, despite using a bulkier and older powerplant than comparable western tanks, still boasts a lower silhouette. This was a significant design success for Indian engineers.
> 
> The Arjun has a state of the art hydro-pneumatic suspension. This coupled with the Arjun's excellent stabilisation and fire control system, allows the tank superb first-hit probability. Its ride comfort is highly praised, though on the negative side, it is a more maintenance-intensive and expensive system, even if more capable, than the simpler and cheaper torsion bar system utilized on many tanks worldwide.
> 
> The Arjun has a capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, referred to as the "Wolfpack/Hunter Network", several Arjun Tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and eliminate him in a chase or ambuscade.



http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3162


----------



## Bull

CHENNAI: The first batch of 14 Arjun MBTs (Main Battle Tanks), the Defence Research and Development Organisation's flagship weapons system, has been delivered to the Army and they are to be put on reliability analysis in Rajasthan deserts this June. 

Talking to reporters, who visited the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) of the DRDO here on Saturday, S. Sundaresh, Director, said that in 2000 the Army had placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks, enough to equip two regiments. 

Rs. 50-cr. facility 


The CVRDE established a Rs. 50-crore facility here to complete delivery of the entire consignment to the Army by July 2009. "We, however, are keen to get orders for another batch of at least 124 MBTs to put the facility to its optimum use," said R. Jayakumar, Additional Director, CVRDE. 

Earlier, Mr. Sundaresh said Arjun underwent exhaustive field trials before the Army placed the orders. Thermal imaging for nigh-time warfare, high acceleration, mobility and hydro gas suspension were some of the significant features of the totally indigenous Arjun, comparable to all tanks of its class in the world. 

Factory's progress 


Highlighting the performance of the factory, Mr. Sundaresh said noteworthy progress had been made in armoured patrol car, armoured recovery vehicle, self-propelled medium artillery gun and bridge layer tanks. Scientists were working on missile firing capability, advance air defence gun, automatic target tracking and stealth technology such as unmanned drones, which detect and clear mines. 

Mr. Jayakumar said Arjun was the most tested battle tank in the world, as it had clocked 70,000 km, in addition to about 10,000 trial firings. Major General H.M. Singh, Additional Director in charge of trial and evaluation, said last year's user field trial report had certified that the accuracy and consistency of the weapon system was proved beyond doubt. 

R. Shankar, Director of Combat Vehicles, DRDO headquarters at New Delhi, said a total of 27 tanks â 15 pre-production and 12 prototype â were produced with a budget outlay of a "paltry" Rs. 300 crore. Arjun was the cheapest tank in its class, he said, adding the CVRDE was ready to supply the system to friendly nations if the Government takes a policy decision


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8679


----------



## ahussains

Adux said:


> *43rd Armour Regiment and ex-officerâs satisfied with Arjun Tank *
> 7 May, 2007 (FIDSNS)
> 
> Replying to Standing Committe on Defence(2004-2005) the representative of the Ministry of Defence during oral evidence has stated âWe have no difficulty to go this summer with the five tanks which the Army would like to put through its own accelerated user trials. Arjun has been checked by the DRDO alongwith 43 Armour Regimentâ
> 
> On April 22, 2006, in an âKnow Your Armyâ exhibition, when asked by a reporter on Arjun tank, Brig (Retd) Prabir Goswami replied âitâs a highly-sophisticated tank with several state-of-the-art components and a âvery high first round hit capability,â a must to survive in an increasingly hostile battlefield having multiple anti-tank threats compounded by developed terrain restrictions on Indiaâs western border.â
> 
> On being asked that the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) developed MBT Arjunâs 120 mm-calibre rifled gun was of the same diameter as the M256 smoothbore gun on the US Armyâs M1A2 Abrams, the expert said, âThe gun is very important but it is a part of a weapon system - the whole tank - and the difference is that the Americans are old hands at this game.
> 
> âThe American advantage of private firms manufacturing prototypes for trials, as part of a competitive environment entailing selection of the best, bespeaks of the amount of finances these firms are willing to spend to develop such sophisticated weaponry. Still, the MBT has several good points and should help the DRDO develop more efficient models in future.â
> 
> Brig (Retd) Prabir Goswami who commanded 16 Independent Armoured Brigade during Operation Vijay the Kargil conflict is also awarded with Vishisht Seva Medal.
> 
> Arjun Tank and DRDO have been under attack from vested interest from both within the Indian Army, middlemen and foreign agencies who would not like to see India to produce major weapon systems indegenously. While there have doctored media report in media against Arjun Tank, the Indian Army Tank users do not have problems with Arjun Tank. The T-90S tanks imported from Russia are under cloud as the tanks have developed defects. The tanks were imported without proper testing and despite the T-90S failing tests in Indian desert conditions. T-90S is not ment for Indian conditions, where as, Arjun Tank has been tested more than 100,000 kilometers and perfected in Indian conditions.
> 
> 
> http://*****************/43rd-armour-regiment-and-ex-officers-satisfied-with-arjun-tank/



Well Well its really nice to here at last some thing about the Arjun is it finally completed or handed over for the Trials to 43 Regiment. Did they make some more changes in the Design Weight Armour Engine or in any other area ??


----------



## Adux




----------



## Interceptor

Cool kit for soldiers in tanks
JOY SENGUPTA
Heat escape

Ranchi, May 5: Indiaâs main battle tank will never be the same again.

A team of engineers, led by Suchitangshu Chatterjee, from the Ranchi-based Metallurgical and Engineering Consultants (Mecon) Ltd, has developed the technology to keep gunners cool in the confined space and for a long period.

The device, smaller than a tabletop computer, took eight years to develop. It was tested in desert conditions on Indiaâs western front and in Chennai, where the main battle tank, Arjun, is built, says a communication from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The army has found it suitable for use.

An elated Chatterjee told The Telegraph that only the US had the technology so far to keep a tank in motion âcoolâ.

Conditions inside a tank, he said, are demanding and the temperature hovers between 45 and 50 degrees Celsius. Sitting in the cramped conditions and in such heat takes a toll on the toughest of soldiers. Many gunners have suffered anxiety syndrome, loss of memory and even temporary insanity.

An airconditioner cannot be fitted in the tank, Chatterjee, a deputy general manager in the company he joined in 1987, said. Any device to be designed by the team had to be small and access energy conveniently. The device ensures continuous air-flow, through tubes, to a special costume that keeps body temperature hovering between 18 and 22 degrees Celsius. This will now protect the gunners from fatigue.

The Mecon team has also developed a pair of battery-operated gloves and socks for soldiers camping at high altitudes and in severe cold. They are yet to undergo field tests, though.

But Chatterjee exuded confidence that they would function in Siachen, where the field tests are likely to be conducted.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060506/asp/frontpage/index.asp


----------



## Adux

Now that is an impressive equipment, 22 - 24 degree's in my opinion the best temperatures to work in.


----------



## Interceptor

The source is from 2006 though, what is happening to the Arjun from that point I am still puzzeled with. The report you showed is weired with respect it shows a opposite opinion from the past when the tank was said not performing up to need and now its performing this is probably a media spining.


----------



## Interceptor

The thing about the Arjun I like is that its robust it has that flair to become a top tank but it requires lots safe tuning I mean why not ask Russia to participate in the Arjun its your close ally and it has the Worlds best tanks I really mean that.


----------



## BATMAN

> The device ensures continuous air-flow, through tubes, to a special costume that keeps body temperature hovering between 18 and 22 degrees Celsius.


I wonder how long it can work. 
I strongly believe that it would be some thing very impractical for tanks application.
The details of device are not mentioned but I assume it may be some sort of tubes assembly which is sprayed with nitrogen sort of gas through tubes, with tiny jets.
Hence at some point this device may needs to be refilled or connected to a larger gas storage tank, again impractical in war situation.


----------



## Keysersoze

Interceptor said:


> Cool kit for soldiers in tanks
> JOY SENGUPTA
> Heat escape
> 
> Ranchi, May 5: Indiaâs main battle tank will never be the same again.
> 
> A team of engineers, led by Suchitangshu Chatterjee, from the Ranchi-based Metallurgical and Engineering Consultants (Mecon) Ltd, has developed the technology to keep gunners cool in the confined space and for a long period.
> 
> The device, smaller than a tabletop computer, took eight years to develop. It was tested in desert conditions on Indiaâs western front and in Chennai, where the main battle tank, Arjun, is built, says a communication from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The army has found it suitable for use.
> 
> An elated Chatterjee told The Telegraph that only the US had the technology so far to keep a tank in motion âcoolâ.
> 
> Conditions inside a tank, he said, are demanding and the temperature hovers between 45 and 50 degrees Celsius. Sitting in the cramped conditions and in such heat takes a toll on the toughest of soldiers. Many gunners have suffered anxiety syndrome, loss of memory and even temporary insanity.
> 
> An airconditioner cannot be fitted in the tank, Chatterjee, a deputy general manager in the company he joined in 1987, said. Any device to be designed by the team had to be small and access energy conveniently. The device ensures continuous air-flow, through tubes, to a special costume that keeps body temperature hovering between 18 and 22 degrees Celsius. This will now protect the gunners from fatigue.
> 
> The Mecon team has also developed a pair of battery-operated gloves and socks for soldiers camping at high altitudes and in severe cold. They are yet to undergo field tests, though.
> 
> But Chatterjee exuded confidence that they would function in Siachen, where the field tests are likely to be conducted.
> 
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060506/asp/frontpage/index.asp



I believe that this is not related to the Arjun but to the T-series of tanks. The T-series cannot retro-actively fit a air-con unit because of the turret size (The air-con units were not ordered with the tanks) It doesn't make sense that a large turret like the one on the Arjun would not have room to fit a air-con unit. and if it didn't have one electronics on the system would be under greater stress because of the heat etc etc.


----------



## Interceptor

Keysersoze said:


> I believe that this is not related to the Arjun but to the T-series of tanks. The T-series cannot retro-actively fit a air-con unit because of the turret size (The air-con units were not ordered with the tanks) It doesn't make sense that a large turret like the one on the Arjun would not have room to fit a air-con unit. and if it didn't have one electronics on the system would be under greater stress because of the heat etc etc.



Keys for your information Arjun is still under development .


----------



## Interceptor

Keys when I read it I thought it was about the Arjun tank if you believe it shouldn't belong here delete its probably my mistake. However, I remember reading that the Arjun had heating problems with engine and crew.


----------



## Keysersoze

Interceptor said:


> Keys when I read it I thought it was about the Arjun tank if you believe it shouldn't belong here delete its probably my mistake. However, I remember reading that the Arjun had heating problems with engine and crew.



Hey it might be relevant to this thread I am not sure.....so it will stay for now.


----------



## Keysersoze

Interceptor said:


> The Mecon team has also developed a pair of battery-operated gloves and socks for soldiers camping at high altitudes and in severe cold. They are yet to undergo field tests, though.
> 
> But Chatterjee exuded confidence that they would function in Siachen, where the field tests are likely to be conducted.
> 
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060506/asp/frontpage/index.asp



On a related note the above ideas are a utter waste of time. They were commercially marketed for a while (for skiers)and were a failure because a) battery life is poor and b) the weight is still prohibitive when working at higher altitudes (where every gram counts)


----------



## con

Keysersoze said:


> I believe that this is not related to the Arjun but to the T-series of tanks. The T-series cannot retro-actively fit a air-con unit because of the turret size (The air-con units were not ordered with the tanks) It doesn't make sense that a large turret like the one on the Arjun would not have room to fit a air-con unit. and if it didn't have one electronics on the system would be under greater stress because of the heat etc etc.



IA did not want a air-con as they thought it degrates the engines.. habit of using T-72.
But then it did not stop them from complaining that Arjun is too hot inside in desert


----------



## Adux

Arjun has Air-Con inside, got the info from BR.


----------



## con

Adux said:


> Arjun has Air-Con inside, got the info from BR.



This complain was around couple of years back.I guess the new Arjun examples do have air con.


----------



## Keysersoze

con said:


> IA did not want a air-con as they thought it degrates the engines.. habit of using T-72.
> But then it did not stop them from complaining that Arjun is too hot inside in desert



Yeah, but the issue I am referring to here is the is the specific problems they were having with the thermal imaging systems overheating within the turret. (T-72/T-90 rather than the ARJUN) and the problems in regards to this. Obviously crew comfort is an additional bonus but they could not fit a device in for the electronics.


----------



## con

Some more news on Arjun



> Arjun MBT Project: Reports of the Standing Committee on Defence
> 
> Daily News & Updates
> India Defence Premium
> Dated 16/5/2007
> Printer Friendly Subscribe
> 
> The following are excerpts of the response of DRDO and the Ministry of Defence to the 14th and 15th Standing Committee on Defence regarding the development, progress and present status of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (Arjun MBT):
> 
> -- Technical issues in the Gunnerâs Main Sight and Gun Control System have been resolved. Suitable modifications have been carried out in these sub-systems on the initial five tanks of MBT Arjun by DRDO, the agency involved for conception and development of the project;
> 
> -- DRDO has conducted successful evaluation and handed over five tanks to the Army on 20th Jun 2006;
> 
> -- Between February and March 2007, DRDO and the Indian Army conducted Joint Receipt Inspections (JRI) of up to 29-40 Arjun MBT's;
> 
> -- Price comparison between 60 ton Arjun MBT and 50 ton T-90S not viable due to inherent difference;
> 
> -- Firing accuracy of Arjun MBT far superior to T-90s or T-72s, can engage targets at 2500 meters;
> 
> -- Production model of Arjun MBT costs Rs 16.80 to 17.20 crore per system;
> 
> -- Power pack, Gunnerâs Main Sight and Track are imported components, which work out to 58% of the cost per tank; I
> 
> -- Import content can be progressively reduced with increased production orders;
> 
> -- Indigenous Gunnerâs Main Sight (IGMS) enables the crew of the tank to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions by day and night with enhanced hit probability;
> 
> -- Indigenous production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for Arjun MBT considering the economy of scale;
> 
> -- Arjun MBTs been driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds, no defects detected;
> 
> -- DRDO's involvement to cease after OFB produces 30 Tanks, DGQA to take over;
> 
> -- Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) to produce 50 tanks a year from 2009 onwards;



http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3199


----------



## Bull

What more is needed to shut the mouthhs of the DRDO critics. I was one of them, mine is shut now.
Im really impressed with the report. Hope the IA follows this up with a massive order for Arjun.


----------



## Adux

Good Job DRDO.


----------



## Adux

*Indian Army To Conduct Final User Trials of Arjun MBT in June*




Dated 18/5/2007
Printer Friendly Subscribe 
Close on the heels of their baptism during war games in the Thar desert, the country's indigenous Arjun battle tanks would undergo final user comparative trials next month, leading to their induction into the Army.

"It is the topmost priority of his Government to operationalise the Arjun tanks," Defence Minister A K Antony said today said. "There were some defects, which have now been removed," Antony told reporters on the sidelines of a defence function here.

While admitting that some more problems were there with the tanks, Antony said that 14 Arjun tanks would undergo comparative summer trials against Russia supplied T-90 and upgraded T-72 in the Thar desert next month, prior to their induction. During the recent exercise 'Ashwamedh', army had for the first time fielded Arjun tanks in war manoeuvres.

Government has already cleared commercial production of 124 Arjun tanks to equip two armoured regiments. "After their induction, we may consider proposals to manufacture more tanks," the Defence Minister said.

The Arjun (Mk I) was developed after three decades of identifying requirements, design, evaluation, redesign process involving the DRDO and the Indian Army. Weighing in at 58.5 tons, it is significantly heavier than the Soviet-era T-series tanks used presently by the Indian Army, and requires changes to the army's logistics establishment. This along with concerns about the imported content and the required changes in production facilities has slowed adoption by the Indian Army.

Armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, it is capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds and the Israeli semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile. In addition, it is armed with a 12.7 mm AA machine gun and a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.

A special prefragmented round is also under development. This shell has a proximity fuse designed to be used against low-flying aircraft, such as attack helicopters. This round could now be supplanted by the LAHAT ATGM which is to be acquired for the Arjuns.

The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 90% Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to the extreme conditions during tests. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and Thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) is the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army, will have an all digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The design and development of the BEL IGMS (Indigenous Gunners Main Sight), the name for the local fire control system, is a huge step forward for Indian industry, given its demanding specifications. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight, allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun was to be supplied by an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode, but space constraints may have led to this requirement being dropped.

The tank incorporates GPS based navigation systems, sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, developed by DRDO allows it to network with other fighting units. It is protected by a Laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.

Arjun has been designed with Western design practices in mind, especially reflected in its crew protection features. With a crew of four, it incorporates heavy composite armour and significant crew protection measures, including ammunition separated from the crew, and blow off panels on the turret bustle, and an integrated fire detection and suppression system. It also incorporates nuclear, biological and chemical protection. Further, Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) panels can be added, though the current Kanchan armour is deemed sufficient for the Arjuns tank-killing role. The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" (gold) composite armour. A new honeycomb design Non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is being tested on the Arjun and is reported to be working perfectly. The turret has been designed with the ergonomics of Indian Army troops in mind. The typical crew consists of a Gunner, Commander, Loader and Driver.

The engine and transmission are provided by MTU and Renk respectively. The engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and gearbox. A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit. The tracks which were being supplied by Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company. The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations. The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design. The Arjun, despite using a bulkier and older powerplant than comparable western tanks, still boasts a lower silhouette. This was a significant design success for Indian engineers.

The Arjun has a state of the art hydro-pneumatic suspension. This coupled with the Arjun's excellent stabilisation and fire control system, allows the tank superb first-hit probability. Its ride comfort is highly praised, though on the negative side, it is a more maintenance-intensive and expensive system, even if more capable, than the simpler and cheaper torsion bar system utilized on many tanks worldwide.

The Arjun has a capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, referred to as the "Wolfpack/Hunter Network", several Arjun Tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and eliminate him in a chase or ambuscade.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3217


----------



## Bull

Good news is pouring in about Arjun. Just wondering how fast the tide changed in favour of Arjun, till afew weeks back it was all anti-arjun and now i cant see a single news thats skeptical about Arjun.


----------



## Adux

From what I have heard about Arjun, All of the Brass are really impressed, cost could be again brought down quite a lot...


----------



## Adux

*Indian Army finds no major defects with Arjun Tank during Ex Ashvamegh* 
19 May, 2007, (FIDSNS)

Excercise Ashvamegh results are out. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has now formal results of the Arjun MBT performance. Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) has a copy Army&#8217;s report on Arjun Tank as a user feedback.

The report states that, Indian Army had Seven Arjun Tanks during Excercise Ashvamegh ,i.e, 5 LSP&#8217;s (limited series) and 2 PPS (pre production). Six Arjun Tanks participated in the excercise. The cumulative distance travelled by Arjun Tank in the excercise is 180 kilometers. All the Tanks had (inner) air getting dirty faster remark and one PPS tank had maintainence related *minor issue of engine oil leak and end connector getting loose.*
Indian Army observations as recorded in the document 

a) No major problems faced during Ex-Ashvamegh.
b) No other defects found during Ex-Ashvamegh.

On asked about the Arjuns Tanks minor issues that croped up during Ex Ashvamegh , FIDSNS was told that the LSP&#8217;s and PPS&#8217;s had run a cumulative distance of 1000 kms before participating in Ex Ashvamegh with normal maintainence.


----------



## Adux

So the Israeli guy in IDF was right on dot!!!!


----------



## Bull

Adux said:


> From what I have heard about Arjun, All of the Brass are really impressed, cost could be again brought down quite a lot...



Well they have already stated by what % they can bring it won in the report. Just waiting to see the initial orders? Whats your guess?


----------



## con

A high resolution Arjun Image

http://www.geocities.com/bhramanti1/auli/arjun.jpg

Compare it with the chap on the left .It's huge


----------



## Bull

oh my god...no wonder it weighs so much.


----------



## TexasJohn

Bull said:


> oh my god...no wonder it weighs so much.



Size does matter!! 

But seriously, it does have a lighter footprint compared to the T-90


----------



## con

Another piece of news 1500 hp engine development already on the move

http://www.drdo.org/tender/desidoc/desidoc29mar07sp2.pdf

Something to notice, a comment from the document
"GSQR exists for futuristic MBT"..Interesting!


----------



## con

FINALLY PEOPLE ..FINALLY

WE HAVE A ARJUN IN ACTION 

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videos.aspx

choose the link on the right which says Arjun


----------



## BATMAN

India To Test Arjun in Exercise; Army Claims Tank Is Faulty 
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI 

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2776224&C=asiapac



> India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert exercises alongside, and in comparison to, Russian T-90 and T-72 tanks.
> But Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat.
> *Conceived in 1974 at an original design and development cost of $3.6 million*, the Arjun tank program under the Defence Research and Development Organization *now costs $83.33 million*. The Arjun tank was to have replaced the aging T-72, but development delays led the service to order T-90s after the Kargil battle in 1999, and the *Army still says it has a serious shortage of main battle tanks.* The T-90 now serves as Indiaâs main battle tank.
> An Army official said next monthâs exercises are user and comparative trials in the deserts of Rajasthan.
> Army sources said the Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
> But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjunâs defects have been removed, and if it passes next monthâs tests, more production orders will be placed with the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadhi.
> Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.
> The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern for the Parliamentâs Standing Committee for Defence, which in its 16th Report in 2006-â07 said that one official had testified, âI am afraid our quality control is very poor. I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made.
> *âThe biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it?â The Defence Ministry official admitted that there is a shortfall of about 3,500 tanks and that the delivery schedule of the Arjun is not satisfactory. The Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years than it will be inducting, which will lead to further shortfalls. The Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008.*
> If the Arjun is not cleared for combat, the Army will need to purchase more tanks besides the T-90 from overseas markets and upgrade more than 1,600 of its T-72 tanks, the Army sources said.
> E-mail: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.


----------



## con

Another idiot reporter who spins out reports.
Pick up the comments from parliamentary and report only partially.
Questions by some idiot MPs are passed as "comments" from experts.

This given the head of Arjun R&D from Army a Major General saying contrary.

A reporter who doesn't even know that there has a AC in the first place to be faulty. Arjun does not have a AC.
What a dork.


----------



## BATMAN

He wrote 'air conditioning' dosn't neccesarily mean lack of cooling units similar to civil vehicles. 
I interpret it as a poor ventilation, improper cabin layout, not enough insulation from hot components and wrong choice of construction materials etc. etc.


----------



## Samudra

BATMAN said:


> He wrote 'air conditioning' dosn't neccesarily mean lack of cooling units similar to civil vehicles.


 
No. 'Air conditioning' means an air conditioning unit and not what we intepret or rather badly wish it to be. The author was wrong.



> not enough insulation from hot components and wrong choice of construction materials



There is no relation between these and an AC. Stop trying to make up facts.


----------



## Keysersoze

When talking about aircon units I would think it meant for the electronics systems.


----------



## EagleEyes

Is the fire control system fixed?


----------



## Samudra

> When talking about aircon units I would think it meant for the electronics systems.



I think we have to stop looking for things that are not obvious in the hope of trying to find faults.



> The tank, without air-conditioning, can dissipate heat



Dr.Natarajan, DRDO Chief. *Circa 2004.*



> Is the fire control system fixed?



Yes. 


> The Army has absolutely 'zero complaints' from the performance of the Arjun Tank in dusty, hot desert conditions in Rajasthan.


----------



## Keysersoze

Samudra said:


> I think we have to stop looking for things that are not obvious in the hope of trying to find faults.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr.Natarajan, DRDO Chief. *Circa 2004.*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.



Actually there was a specific problem with FCS units that were overheating due to no aircon units on the T-series of tanks which could not be retro fitted. If they did not fit a aircon system to a similar unit then the same problems would reoccur.


----------



## Samudra

Keysersoze said:


> Actually there was a specific problem with FCS units that were overheating due to no aircon units on the T-series of tanks which could not be retro fitted. If they did not fit a aircon system to a similar unit then the same problems would reoccur.



When a report says ''zero complaints' do you read it as 'zero plus one complaints' ?


----------



## Keysersoze

Samudra said:


> When a report says ''zero complaints' do you read it as 'zero plus one complaints' ?



I was merely commenting upon air conditioning units and how their lack can cause problems not on the report. A problem not anticipated previously.

Also lets take a look at something here.....

Volume 21 - Issue 17, Aug. 14 - 27, 2004

If the guys in the article were correct the tank should be out by now or are they merely bidding their time......?


----------



## Samudra

Keysersoze said:


> Volume 21 - Issue 17, Aug. 14 - 27, 2004
> 
> If the guys in the article were correct the tank should be out by now or are they merely bidding their time......?



The tank has been out since 2002.


----------



## Interceptor

The report by the Indian media is complete and utter ignorance its propoganda in plane words.
Keys is right the Arjun has problems, have a read from a dedicated source.

*Jane's Defence Weekly Mag
16 May 2007*


----------



## Keysersoze

Samudra said:


> The tank has been out since 2002.



And how many have been produced since then?


----------



## Samudra

Keysersoze said:


> And how many have been produced since then?



124 are being produced after extensive trails.


----------



## Keysersoze

Samudra said:


> 124 are being produced after extensive trails.



Dude this is the thing.....the tank has supposedly been in production for a while now....and if there are still trials going on then it would suggest that something still needs testing.....Those 124 tanks have been on the production line a loooooooooong time.


----------



## Samudra

Five years is nothing for a country like India to productionise a tank like ARJUN which is totally different from anything it has made before. Plus trials of production models.


----------



## EagleEyes

Does anyone know what was wrong with guns? and fire control system?

If it has been fixed. Any link?


----------



## Samudra

> The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 90% Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to the extreme conditions during tests. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and Thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) is the gunner's primary sight.



http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3217

All FCS issues resolved. 

Army initially wanted 105mm guns later changed mind and wanted 120mm rifled bore.


----------



## EagleEyes

Good to know that they finally seeked help and resolved this issue. 

http://www.sagem-ds.com/eng/site.php?spage=02010404


----------



## con

Keysersoze said:


> Dude this is the thing.....the tank has supposedly been in production for a while now....and if there are still trials going on then it would suggest that something still needs testing.....Those 124 tanks have been on the production line a loooooooooong time.



Keys,
DRDO does not produce Arjuns. They are the developers.Once the user trials are complete and an production example is finalised,which was done in 2002, it is handed over the production agency called HVF.

The IA loathes anything from HVF.Since HVF is already busy with T-72's and T-90 assesmbly they dont bother about Arjun. Plus since Arjun is their first full production tank,they mess up the production.

What you see some reports on issues they are from the test trials of PRODUCTION models. Th e IA wants perfect production pieces.They find faults,they will send it to HVF
The media will take up this issue and keep ranting that faults are with Arjun.

For example one of the tanks during the recent war games has a suspension oil leakage.
What did the press do.They brought out a report that "Army is unsure about Arjun blah blah .... there was failure of suspension..blah blah"

One tank leakage and the whole Arjun is at fault! 

If Arjun was so much faulty,the man reporting the Arjun test on the video is the most famous critic of Arjun, he also had to eat his own words.

Observe when he comments about suspension.

Here is a youtube video.


----------



## con

A full history of Arjun development.

http://*****************/history-of-arjun-tank-development/



> Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) uncovers the story of Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), which is one of the world&#8217;s best main battle tanks. Indian indigenous Arjun MBT development history is a facinating story of Indian quest to develop a formidable Tank.The article covers the design, development and operational use of Arjun Tank. FIDSNS is greatfull to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for its time and efforts to make this article.
> The main battle tank MBT-80 which is now called MBT Arjun was conceived by the Indian Army after it realised the futility of its tanks mainly in desert conditions, during the 1971 war.
> 
> 1972 &#8211; 1975
> In October 1970 a symposium was held on the Indian Main Battle Tank (MBT) at Armoured Corps Center and School. It was attended by the representatives from Indian Army General Staff (GS), Defence Research and Development Organisation DRDO), Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) and Department of Defence Production (DODP). The main aim of the symposium was to formulate GSQR for future Indian MBT.
> The first draft of Qualitative Requirement (QR) was prepared by Armoured Corps Directorate and discussed with Vice Chief of Army Staff (VCOAS).
> The first General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was issued in August 1972 as QR No. 326 for the design and development of MBT. The QR 326 was not exhaustive and with regard to specifications but featured only skeleton specifications.
> The design and development of MBT based on GSQR No. 326 was taken up by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE). The initial outlay of Rs. 15.50 Crore was sanctioned vide the Government of India (GOI) letter dated 02 May, 1974. Project Development Certification (PDC) of the project was 10 years from the date of sanction.
> The MBT was to be designed around imported engine as the design and development experience to create a tank engine was not available within the time frame of the project. In 1974, DRDO had to take up design and development of a tank engine as Government of India could not import a tank engine because of political and other reasons.
> 
> 1975 -1980
> DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank. Indigenous engine hardware was assembled and motoring test commenced by 1979. Indigenous suspension and transmission hardware was ready for development test. The main 115mm armament was developed and trials were carried out for proof at Balasore ranges. The gun system and fire control system design was configured. One prototype hull in mild steel was fabricated to check the fitment and assembly.
> In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions. The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army, chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.
> The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were
> a)Increase in width and weight
> b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
> c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.
> Essentially it meant creation of entirely new design and systems. A sum of Rs. 56.55 Crores was obtained mainly to cater to cater to GSQR changes and price escalation due to inflation/ rise in import costs.
> The PDC of the project was revised. The first prototype was to be built by October 1980 and subsequently 12 prototypes were to be developed, one in every 6 months.
> The indigenous engine and transmission evaluation on dynamometer was carried out during 1979-81.
> 
> 1980 &#8211; 1985
> As already mentioned that the country had no experience in building an basic internal combustion engine. The tank engine development slipped as this engine was to be made after experimenting with basics of an internal combustion engine. Project of this scale was almost impossible for nascent Indian research laboratories. By this time, the western governments had shown willingness to supply the engines. A decision was taken to import a limited number of engines (also called &#8220;power packs&#8221 from M/S MTU, Germany. For the fitment On Mark 1 (Mk 1) prototypes so as not to let the development schedule of the MBT slip.
> Initially MTU supplied a 700hp engine for fitment trials and subsequently supplied 1100hp engine for prototypes. The MTU was also developing a 1400hp engine as per the specifications laid down by CVRDE.
> The first prototype of the MBT was developed based on GSQR No. 326 of 1972 and No. 431 of 1982.
> The prototype was subjected to limited technical trials by DRDO at Avadi and Jodhpur desert area.
> Subsequently, few more prototypes were produced with different configuration by 1985.
> In the initial development phase, suspension, running gear and other automotive systems were being evaluated with 1100 hp engine.
> 
> 1985 &#8211; 1990
> There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent. This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued. The changes in GSQR were:
> a)More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.
> b)Requirement of Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)
> c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
> d)Integrated Fire Control System based on sight stabilized system with periscopic gunner sight.
> e)Thermal Imaging system for gunner&#8217;s main sight for night fighting capabilities.
> f)Provision of &#8220;Kanchan Armour&#8221; for enhanced immunity.
> In addition following conditions were in the new GSQR:
> &#8226;Manufacture of 23 Pre production Series (PPS) Tanks to enable full scale troop trials and after that smooth transfer technology (TOT) to a production agency.
> &#8226;Setting of Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV) evaluation center and augmentation of infrastructure facilities.
> &#8226;Realistic assessment of technical and user trial.
> &#8226;Import of engines for prototypes and PPS.
> The revised financial implication because of the new GSQR was Rs. 280.80 Crores which was issued in 1987. The GSQR escalated the cost of materials, stores and the import cost spiraled due to weakening Rupee.
> The development of the tank was progressed with reference to the new GSQR. DRDO had to re &#8211; design the structure of chassis/ hull. The turret had to be designed again to cater to improved armour protection and a high power to weight ratio power pack. The MBT now also to feature Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare and protection system, Medium Fording capability, auxiliary power unit (APU), Laser Warning System (LWS) and Global Positioning System (GPS).
> The period of 1985 &#8211; 1990 was significant in history of Arjun Tank for the progressive evolution of a number of systems through exhaustive field testing. A total of 12 Arjun Tank prototypes were built in order to prove the design, development and system integration of a number of systems through field testing.
> The integration of first prototype with a proper 1400 hp engine was accomplished in 1989. During the automotive trials of the prototypes a total of 20,000 Kilometer run in various terrain. Arjun MBT covered 11000 kilometers in dessert terrain and 1000 kilometers in river bed terrain. The weapon system was also tested by firing 540 FSAPDS and 560 HESH.
> 
> 1990 &#8211; 1995
> The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
> The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
> MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
> The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.
> The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and &#8220;bottom line requirements&#8221; were laid down. After the completion of the 1994 trials on MBT Arjun, a presentation was made to the COAS and he laid down &#8220;Imperatives&#8221; in August 1994.
> All the additional 9 PPS tanks were handed over to Army progressively and the final handing over of the 9th PPS Tank to Army happened in 1996. The last PPS tank (i.e. XV) incorporating improvements as suggested by the Army and with add on features viz. APU, NBC, Medium Fording Capability was demonstrated to COAS and users at Avadi.
> The PPS Tanks delivered to the Army during this period had covered 70,000 kilometers of automotive trials and fired 7000 rounds. The average kilometer run by a PPS tank was 4500 kilometers and 460 rounds fired from each tank.
> DRDO addressed the bottom line requirements and imperatives as demanded by the COAS. The overall design of the Arjun Tank was cleared.
> 
> 1995 &#8211; 2000
> A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August &#8211; December 1995 successfully.
> The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.
> The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.
> In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise &#8220;AGNIR.ATI-t.&#8221; (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and &#8220;joint Action Plan&#8221; for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.
> The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.
> The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.
> DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.
> *The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.*



The last statement indicates the problem in production at HVF.

The IA gives a requirement for increased weight, i.e heavy armour. But then the media dorks print reports that IA complains about weight.

The requirements for what Arjun is today was given by the IA in 1987. That is 20 years ago. So much for the cribbing that it took 35 years.


----------



## foxhound

Salaam!

News Update: 

*India To Test Arjun in Exercise; Army Claims Tank Is Faulty *

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI 
Ref:http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2776224&C=asiapac

India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert exercises alongside, and in comparison to, Russian T-90 and T-72 tanks.
*But Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat*. 
Conceived in 1974 at an original design and development cost of $3.6 million, the Arjun tank program under the Defence Research and Development Organization now costs $83.33 million. _The Arjun tank was to have replaced the aging T-72, but development delays led the service to order T-90s after the Kargil battle in 1999, and the Army still says it has a serious shortage of main battle tanks. _*The T-90 now serves as Indiaâs main battle tank*.
An Army official said next monthâs exercises are user and comparative trials in the deserts of Rajasthan. 

Army sources said the *Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat*, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjunâs defects have been removed, and if it passes next monthâs tests, more production orders will be placed with the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadhi.
Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.

The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern for the Parliamentâs Standing Committee for Defence, which in its 16th Report in 2006-â07 said that one official had testified, âI am afraid our quality control is very poor. I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. 
âThe biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control. *If China can do it, why can we not do it?â*

The Defence Ministry official *admitted that there is a shortfall of about 3,500 tanks and that the delivery schedule of the Arjun is not satisfactory.* The Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years than it will be inducting, which will lead to further shortfalls. The *Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008.*

*If the Arjun is not cleared for combat, the Army will need to purchase more tanks besides the T-90 from overseas markets and upgrade more than 1,600 of its T-72 tanks, the Army sources said.* â¢


----------



## Samudra

So the final configurations were confirmed in 1985 and the money was sanctioned in 1987. Thats exactly twenty years and only some 20 odd crores over the budget. Considering the inflation and rise of various other expenses including trials and production of PPS variants building a tank like ARJUN is a great achievement.

Only the imagers, engine and transmission are foreign now. Locally developed transmission will be available very soon. Infact its already in trials.


----------



## Interceptor

1990 &#8211; 1995
The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.


----------------------------
The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army&#8217;s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even &#8220;freeze&#8221; the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the &#8220;Chetek&#8221; was produced and displayed on India&#8217;s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named &#8220;Arjun&#8221;. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.

The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was &#8220;frozen&#8221; for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army&#8217;s &#8220;diluted&#8221; requirements. Despite the Army&#8217;s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a &#8216;fait accompli&#8217; and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm


----------



## Bull

olssssss newsssss...the excersice is over the verdict is out...wake up.....


----------



## con

Interceptor said:


> 1990 â 1995
> The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
> The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
> MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
> The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------
> The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Armyâs Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even âfreezeâ the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the âChetekâ was produced and displayed on Indiaâs Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named âArjunâ. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.
> 
> The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was âfrozenâ for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Armyâs âdilutedâ requirements. Despite the Armyâs reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a âfait accompliâ and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.
> 
> http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm



A pakistani author on Arjun development. Please.

When an author goes about on self praise to bring down another nation's equipment,it is not worth reading any more.
So what is this "diluted requirement"? Can you tell me?


----------



## Interceptor

But reading crtics will tell people what other nations think, you can call the Al-Khalid the greatest tank on the planet but in reality it is medium low tech tank. Why would the Arjun stand out more there is a still a big question mark if it is going to be conducted or not. 

The Jane report shows the Indians are not satisfied with its performance. Hence they bought a large number of T-90s to keep up the stratigic need.


----------



## Samudra

> The Jane report shows the Indians are not satisfied with its performance. Hence they bought a large number of T-90s to keep up the stratigic need.



The Janes report is full of BS, my friend. I've already made a number of posts reg the errors in the article. Care to read ?

ARJUN has arrived.


----------



## Interceptor

Samudra said:


> The Janes report is full of BS, my friend. I've already made a number of posts reg the errors in the article. Care to read ?
> 
> ARJUN has arrived.



Yep, I dont mind reading it.


----------



## BATMAN

Samudra said:


> ARJUN has arrived.



Correction> T-90 has arrived.


----------



## zraver

BATMAN said:


> Correction> T-90 has arrived.



Correction, the Arjun has arrived for head to head comparisons with the T-90 and T-72 starting in June. The video shot by a local TV station (local to the test course) did not show much but it did show the extremily smooth suspencion of the Arjun on a rough course. This is going to give the Arjun a huge edge over any tank in Asia but the US Abrams and South Korean K1/A1 and XK2. The Arjun's ride is smoother than the Abrams in fact, and that is an impressive feat.


----------



## Neo

Yes, I can confirm that.


----------



## con

zraver said:


> Correction, the Arjun has arrived for head to head comparisons with the T-90 and T-72 starting in June. The video shot by a local TV station (local to the test course) did not show much but it did show the extremily smooth suspencion of the Arjun on a rough course. This is going to give the Arjun a huge edge over any tank in Asia but the US Abrams and South Korean K1/A1 and XK2. The Arjun's ride is smoother than the Abrams in fact, and that is an impressive feat.



That was first ever video of Arjun on a testing range. It always been a enigma tank. We dont have any proper video of Arjun shooting at targets.
However reading from numerous reports over the years, I can safely conclude that Arjun atleast does not issues overs shooting on the move,range or ability of armour.

This conclusion is based on the "cribbing" reports that generally come out. The Indian media has been cribbing about the most silly thing about these tanks.Hence if there were any issues with the gun or the armour,the IA would have gladly complained to the press and they would ripped DRDO apart.
Infact suspension was one of the most complained about in the press.

During the late 90's testing ,IA had complained that it is more accurate while shooting on the move,than when stationary. . (I guess also an effect of IA was using it as a T-72,by expecting it to shoot better when stationary!)

Hopefully in the coming months,we have better videos on the tank.

There was this report over development of 1500hp engine for the tank.Within the report it had a comment about futuristic tank requirements being already in place. I guess this is probably a hint that Arjun MK2 in the pipeline/already worked on.


----------



## joey

WebMaster said:


> Good to know that they finally seeked help and resolved this issue.
> 
> http://www.sagem-ds.com/eng/site.php?spage=02010404



IIRC The FCS has been planned to use Indian one, just wait till BR article on Arjun comes online, the details is mind blogging hehe.

where does Sagem comes here?


----------



## BATMAN

zraver said:


> Correction, the Arjun has arrived for head to head comparisons with the T-90 and T-72 starting in June.



Oh, I see.... Arjun will be tested against those 350, T-90 tanks, but I wonder if there will be any deliveries from Russia by june for your head to head comparisons.

Still Arjun prototypes had to under go testing and there are chances of rejection.
Even if it pass IA testing still lot of logistics related changes will be required before it can be used in battels.
If its over all cost hit more or same as T-90 than again there inductions may be very limited and will be for iconic reasons, only.


----------



## Interceptor

con said:


> This conclusion is based on the "cribbing" reports that generally come out. The Indian media has been cribbing about the most silly thing about these tanks.Hence if there were any issues with the gun or the armour,the IA would have gladly complained to the press and they would ripped DRDO apart.
> Infact suspension was one of the most complained about in the press.



I think it is a good thing that the Arjun has been exposed by the Media, because of the critics look where the Arjun is now it is far advanced and developed tank. It is probably among the top tanks when its finished its initial trials. 



con said:


> During the late 90's testing ,IA had complained that it is more accurate while shooting on the move,than when stationary. . (I guess also an effect of IA was using it as a T-72,by expecting it to shoot better when stationary!)



Does the Arjun have the ability of Hunter Killer?



con said:


> Hopefully in the coming months,we have better videos on the tank.
> 
> There was this report over development of 1500hp engine for the tank.Within the report it had a comment about futuristic tank requirements being already in place. I guess this is probably a hint that Arjun MK2 in the pipeline/already worked on.



Well there was a similar report about the Al-Khalid durings its initial career, however, Arjun needs to be first inducted into the Indian Army before there is Mk2 version. This report you read is the engine forign or Indian made.


----------



## zraver

> Does the Arjun have the ability of Hunter Killer?



based on published photes, and reports and my own trained eye- NO it does not posses a hunter killer apsect but such modificatiosn inside the roomy Arjun turret should be easy enough if the tank is inducted in large enough numbers to make it cost effective.


----------



## joey

zraver what is hunter-killer?


----------



## joey

oh one needs CITV for hunter-killer right? just a upgrade.

zraver if you recall post by dberwal to you who personally evaluated the Arjun, ( link )




> ARJUN for the Nth time has a true Hunter - Killer capability..... it has a commanders panoramic sight commander can keep on hunting for the TGT and gunner can keep on killing the TGT as assigned/passed by cmdr..



but, CITV would provide better work I guess.


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## Neo

Its getting too technical for me to follow...I'm lost. Ehm..excuse my ignorance but whats a hunter killer and CITV?


----------



## joey

BATMAN said:


> Oh, I see.... Arjun will be tested against those 350, T-90 tanks, but I wonder if there will be any deliveries from Russia by june for your head to head comparisons.


No the T90S we had, we dont need new ones for test.



> Still Arjun prototypes had to under go testing and there are chances of rejection.


Heard of JRI? around 30 Arjuns are reado for JRI (joint reception Inspection), to make the production line smoother, Arjun has to go through trails and inspection after each batch is being build, till the production line gets perfected.

there are no problems in Arjun so far.



> Even if it pass IA testing still lot of logistics related changes will be required before it can be used in battels.


Wrong, Indias new logistics are all 70+ rated.



> If its over all cost hit more or same as T-90


MBT and T series doesnt hits same, it is always more and more.



> than again there inductions may be very limited and will be for iconic reasons, only.


Grapes are sour, 124 will equip 2 regiments, more will come.


Neo CITV means commanders independent thermal viewer, can be itnegrated in the Arjun but will escalate cost so it havent been kept on table with already screaming army for 4mn$ per piece..

hunter-killer means hunting while killing, You'll know if it has it or not just wait till June 8th a team of FIDNs will visit Arjun and ask it


----------



## joey

Interceptor said:


> I think it is a good thing that the Arjun has been exposed by the Media, because of the critics look where the Arjun is now it is far advanced and developed tank. It is probably among the top tanks when its finished its initial trials.


Thanks, we knew it much before.



> Well there was a similar report about the Al-Khalid durings its initial career, however, Arjun needs to be first inducted into the Indian Army before there is Mk2 version. This report you read is the engine forign or Indian made.



Very Very correct, IA needs to induct Arjun and the whole works this way you induct some then you make upgrades.
Arjun has always huge room for expansion.

Another thing note, There was once a MK2 version tested using torson bar, was once reported way back in mod report, but it was rejected by developers, it was done to compare the suspensions, wait for the BR article it will have these nifty details with source.


----------



## Neo

joey said:


> Neo CITV means commanders independent thermal viewer, can be itnegrated in the Arjun but will escalate cost so it havent been kept on table with already screaming army for 4mn$ per piece..
> 
> hunter-killer means hunting while killing, You'll know if it has it or not just wait till June 8th a team of FIDNs will visit Arjun and ask it



Thanks mate.


----------



## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> I think it is a good thing that the Arjun has been exposed by the Media, because of the critics look where the Arjun is now it is far advanced and developed tank. It is probably among the top tanks when its finished its initial trials.



What are the grounds of your sense less claim.


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## Interceptor

BATMAN said:


> What are the grounds of your sense less claim.



What does the above sentence mean?

I cant understand it!


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## BATMAN

joey said:


> No the T90S we had, we dont need new ones for test.


So you will be testing new Arjuns with used tanks.


> Heard of JRI? around 30 Arjuns are reado for JRI (joint reception Inspection), to make the production line smoother, Arjun has to go through trails and inspection after each batch is being build, till the production line gets perfected.


How many batches had been built so far and how many are under production? 
Why do you need to test every batch? 
Why are you building batches if your production line is not yet perfected? 
When do you think perfections in assembly will be acheived?
I didn't understood the rest!


> there are no problems in Arjun so far.


How can you claim this before any testing.


> Wrong, Indias new logistics are all 70+ rated.


 Wrong, IA need to build new carriers for transportation.
What is 70+ rating?


> MBT and T series doesnt hits same, it is always more and more.


Isn't T-90 the existing MBT in IA! Arjun is surely not the most favorite tank of IA.


> Grapes are sour, 124 will equip 2 regiments, more will come.


Building 124 Arjuns before it pass IA requsites!!!!!.... Any inductions now will be seen with suspisions.


> for 4mn$ per piece..


I will do little research before believing this figure!


> hunter-killer means hunting while killing, You'll know if it has it or not
> just wait till June 8th a team of FIDNs will visit Arjun and ask it


Isn't is this same as tracking target while engaged in shooting, it can't be a modern tank if it dosn't have it.
What is FIDNs and what will the ask?


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## joey

My dear Batman, I'm afraid your woefully immature in the sidelines of briefing about Arjuns Developement, However I'll try my best to reply you, kindly do a little bit research while posting things.



BATMAN said:


> So you will be testing new Arjuns with used tanks.


lol, Does used tanks means they wont perform as new ones?



> How many batches had been built so far and how many are under production?


Roughly around 30 or so are ready, if you want more details let me know.



> Why do you need to test every batch?


The secret lies in extremely finer tolerance issue of Arjuns construction which tests the rep taped OFB organisation to its limits.
If you have seen M1 Abrams production line in National Geographic you would knew how mechanized is a modern MBT production line, Indian OFB is a red tape organisation and doesnt has capability/infrastructure to produce Arjun in mass scale basis as per the requirements of tolerance and quality control laid out by DRDO to them, they have been building infrastructure for it for past few years, thus testing of each batch would ensure transition from zero production lineup to a steady production line up, and thus it is needed.



> Why are you building batches if your production line is not yet perfected?


See above, how can you perfect production line without producing batches?



> When do you think perfections in assembly will be acheived?


It is being been achievded as we speak with each batch being tested.



> I didn't understood the rest!


there is no rest lol.



> How can you claim this before any testing.


Arjun has been problem free for a couple of years now, It is from official MOD report.



> Wrong, IA need to build new carriers for transportation.
> What is 70+ rating?


No, not wrong, ask zraver, 70+ in short means carriers which can carry Arjun.



> Isn't T-90 the existing MBT in IA!


T90 is not a MBT, Arjun is a MBT, We have 3500 tank fleet, so a high-lo mix is needed, thus the T90S would supplement Arjun.



> Arjun is surely not the most favorite tank of IA.


Your wrong here, Arjun has been plagued with arms lobby game, If you check the original QSR, IA initially asked for a 60 tonne MBT , 120 mm from 105 mm gun so dont believe what you see in normal eyes read more!

Arjun was is will outpace any T series tanks, and was designed keeping that specific details in mind, Thanks you.



> Building 124 Arjuns before it pass IA requsites!!!!!.... Any inductions now will be seen with suspisions.


I did not understood what you said, or what your suspicion has to do with reality.



> I will do little research before believing this figure!


Your welcome to do it, Arjun as of now cost some 17 crores with some thing imported and will be subsequently replaced by home grown things where cost will be brought down.



> Isn't is this same as tracking target while engaged in shooting, it can't be a modern tank if it dosn't have it.


It does have it, as per someone who evaluated Arjun himself.



> What is FIDNs and what will the ask?


never mind.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> What does the above sentence mean?
> 
> I cant understand it!





Interceptor said:


> I think it is a good thing that the Arjun has been exposed by the Media, because of the critics look where the Arjun is now it is far advanced and developed tank. It is probably among the top tanks when its finished its initial trials.



I can see you have difficulties with English. Your whole sentence makes no sense.
I guessed you are claiming arjun to be the best tank in the world though it was rejected by IA. 
Hence, I wondered what are your interests for glorifying a rejected hardware?


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## joey

Batman, Your problem in understanding him is bringing in question the ability of your technical expertise, refrain from such thing as honestly you dont make any sense, because Arjun is not rejected.


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## Interceptor

joey said:


> Batman, Your problem in understanding him is bringing in question the ability of your technical expertise, refrain from such thing as honestly you dont make any sense, because Arjun is not rejected.



Exactly as stated by Joey, Arjun is here to stay, there were malign reports about Arjun, however, the recent test has shut them up!


----------



## zraver

joey said:


> oh one needs CITV for hunter-killer right? just a upgrade.
> 
> zraver if you recall post by dberwal to you who personally evaluated the Arjun, ( link )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but, CITV would provide better work I guess.



A panoramic day sight does not give the tank hunter killer capabilites no matter what he thinks. The first thing a pakistani tank force is going to do when engaged is pop smoke and that panaramic daysight is useless. That sight also lacks automatic sector scanning- commanders override, and a laser range finder.

An M1A2 or an Al Kalid can have the gunner engaging one target, while the commander finds the next target day or night, smoke or no smoke. Not sure about the AK, but the Abrams computers remember this info and help lay the gun so the gunner can aquire the next target faster-while the commander is already looking for and lasing more targets. This is a huge advantage and is the Arjuns only weakness besides cost and low numbers.



> It does have it, as per someone who evaluated Arjun himself.



dberwal is like a colorblind mna describing a rainbow. What he thinks is a hunter-killer capability and what is really a hunter killer capability are two different things. All the panoramic day sight does is allow the tank commander to look around him unbuttoned in fair weather during the day without smoke.

Hunter-Killer

The ability of the tank to hunt for fresh targets while the gunner is actively killing the first target. The Arjun does not have this abilityunder any realistic scenarios.

CITV

Commander Indipendant Thermal Viewer with laser range finder and a computer that can lay the gun on target for the gunner. This lets the commander find and lase new targets for the gunner to aquire as soon as the gunner has killed the first target. The really good systems like the Abrams allow the commander to get several targets ahead of the gunner under ideal circumstances.



> No, not wrong, ask zraver, 70+ in short means carriers which can carry Arjun.



Joey is right, the Arjun coems in at 58.5 metric tonnes while the IA has upgraded thier assult bridging and transporter fleet to class 70 (70 metric tonnes) the shortage is in rail cars (but India does hav ethe needed cars jsut not many) but this is a peace time concern as front line units wont go to war on flatbed cars.



> What is FIDNs and what will the ask?



its a TV station so the questions it will ask and the answer sit will get don't mean much. What is important will be the video. The video will be reviewed by people who know what they are looking at who will then render thier judgement. The little bit of pre-trial video released showed a very impressive and highly effective suspencion that totally outclasses every other tank on the Sub continent. If not fore the new XK-2 it would probalby be the best in the world in that department. Thats from a 2 minute video that had 5 seconds of really useful footage. What it doe snot show is how relaible it is. if the system holds up then India has a war winner in mobile combat beucase the Arjuns gun envelope will probalby be 15-25KPH faster than the AK/T-84/T-90. Most older tanks and older suspencion designs have a gun envelope of between 15-35kph. faster of slow and the vibratiosn outpace the stablisation system, this includes the Al Khalid that uses an older suspencion model. Truly modern tanks have a 0-40kph gun envelope the Abrams can go to 45 the leclerc to 50 and the Arjun promises to be a 50kph gun platform. That is mindblowing and very dangerous.

What I am wating to see now is some gunnery footage, turret traverse and a few other things to make a better overall evaluation.


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## joey

zraver thanks, so one needs CITV for true hunter-killer, well no big deal I guess, you just need to add a Gunners main sight 2 which will be cued with the computer and will be used by the Commander.

and zraver, FIDNS is not a TV station, it is a online group which will visit Arjun for 3 days to check it, you can ask questions to them which they'll ask the developers inturn, i gave you the link already.


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## zraver

joey said:


> and zraver, FIDNS is not a TV station, it is a online group which will visit Arjun for 3 days to check it, you can ask questions to them which they'll ask the developers inturn, i gave you the link already.



My bad, I thought it was the TV station that would be doing the filming, I am waiting on the video.


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## joey

I'll ask them to ask the developers on this hunter-killer issue, as you said Arjun does not has true hunter killer as it is being having a independent CITV, but it can still do hunter-killer role using its commanders sight right? ofcourse when not in smoke et al.

I dont know why Army didnt asked for including a CITV, what can be the reason? cost? As i understand you just need to put a second gunners sight which will e used by commander instead of gunner and both sights will work in tandem with the onboard computer.

I hope in next batch beyond 124 they will integrate it, as one can always put it.


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## Interceptor

It requires a small subsystem and software, thats about it for the Hunter Killer system.
Nothing big for India to develop they have booming technology companies and it will probably be added in the next batch or maybe is added?


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## joey

Interceptor it requires a CITV means you need to use one more gunners idnependent sight exclusively for commander, zraver I think i got the reason why it doesnt has CITV, remember Arjuns gunners sight was yet not indigenous other than the new batch IIRC.

Thus i guess not to escalate cost it didnt put CITV, and will put it when in next batch it will use the indigenous gunners main sight which will be considerably cheaper.

It clready costs 2x times the T90 lol.


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## joey

no interceptor, the sight lack requisite details, hehe.
It used open source information iirc.

Though some details are revealed very nicely like the original QSR which army only asked for a 60 tonne class tank, and details on the NBC system.

The BR article will be much detailed 

As zraver said smoke can jam your pan view as it lacks laser range finder, it needs a CITV period.

Plus the details I think it is giving of ashwamedha exercise, and one cannot judge Arjuns full parametres through it, as zraver said its suspension along with two axis electro-hydraulic gun stabilizer will give it exceptional speed while firing.

Check the Arjun video in youtube and check rhe speed on gun stabilised mode when the two tanks is dashing through a water pit.


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## joey

Plus you simply cannot compare T series with a MBT, the very nature of the two has difference in doctrined warfare, There are LOTS of issues of T series tanks which has been overcomed in western type design.


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## joey

Interceptor said:


> Cool kit for soldiers in tanks
> JOY SENGUPTA
> Heat escape
> 
> Ranchi, May 5: Indiaâs main battle tank will never be the same again.
> 
> A team of engineers, led by Suchitangshu Chatterjee, from the Ranchi-based Metallurgical and Engineering Consultants (Mecon) Ltd, has developed the technology to keep gunners cool in the confined space and for a long period.
> 
> *The device, smaller than a tabletop computer, took eight years to develop. It was tested in desert conditions on Indiaâs western front and in Chennai, where the main battle tank, Arjun, is built, says a communication from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).*
> 
> The army has found it suitable for use.
> 
> An elated Chatterjee told The Telegraph that only the US had the technology so far to keep a tank in motion âcoolâ.
> 
> Conditions inside a tank, he said, are demanding and the temperature hovers between 45 and 50 degrees Celsius. Sitting in the cramped conditions and in such heat takes a toll on the toughest of soldiers. Many gunners have suffered anxiety syndrome, loss of memory and even temporary insanity.
> 
> An airconditioner cannot be fitted in the tank, Chatterjee, a deputy general manager in the company he joined in 1987, said. Any device to be designed by the team had to be small and access energy conveniently. The device ensures continuous air-flow, through tubes, to a special costume that keeps body temperature hovering between 18 and 22 degrees Celsius. This will now protect the gunners from fatigue.
> 
> The Mecon team has also developed a pair of battery-operated gloves and socks for soldiers camping at high altitudes and in severe cold. They are yet to undergo field tests, though.
> 
> But Chatterjee exuded confidence that they would function in Siachen, where the field tests are likely to be conducted.
> 
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060506/asp/frontpage/index.asp



since you have bought up this, let me give you some more information on Arjuns cooling system,

*Something about Arjuns Cooling system*

Solid-State Cooling Garment for Tank Crew 
http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/apr2001/biomed.htm 



> The field studies conducted by DRDO on the problems of tank crew in desert environment have identified the need for the development of microclimate cooling device to combat the high heat loads encountered by the tank crew. The microclimate of the crew component gets heated to temperatures beyond 50 Â° C. Exposure to such high temperature leads to heat disorders, causing deterioration in the mental and physical work capacity of the crew members.
> 
> Human factors considerations and the process of heat transfer from the human body have revealed that microclimate cooling close to body surface of the crew members is the only possible and effective solution to the problem. With this in view, the design parameters for the development of thermoelectric solid-state cooling garment based on Peltier's effect of cooling finalized.
> 
> The unit is devised by using TE modules having suitable coefficient of performance. The modules I are sandwitched between two copper plates that act as hot side and cold side plates, Water is used as heat exchanger that circulates through the grooves in the cold plate and cool down to approximately 20 :t 1Â° C. The cold water is then allowed to circulate through the thin PVC linings of the tubing which are in contact with body surface. The cold water picks up heat from the body surface and cools it.
> 
> The application of the solid-state cooling garment has been demonstrated in the human climatic chamber and also in the crew compartments of T -72 and MBT Arjun, The system has been found to be effective and provides more than 300 W of cooling at power input of 460 W. In this endeavour, MECON Ltd, Ranchi, has lend their expertise. Miniaturization of the system has been planned.



This report is from 2001. 

Thereafter: 

http://www.mecon.co.in/rnd.htm 





> Solid State Microclimate Conditioning Unit developed by MECON, funded by DIPAS, Delhi, (Unit of DRDO), provides powerful solutions to the problems presented by demanding thermal conditions i.e. minimizing heat stress and fatigue for persons working in high ambient. Such systems are solid state, CFC free, highly reliable and easily maintainable.



take care, the above is the miniaturized cooling unit, which DRDO mentions as yet to be developed, in 2001.

By 2006, it was ready and trialled. 

For reference: Annual report 05-06 

http://www.meconinfo.co.in/Tenders/Annual-Report-05-06.pdf 

The system under testing from a old image



Also Mosnews in 2006 states,

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/10/27/rustankstoindia.shtml



> Army chief Gen J J Singh recently declared that the Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was considering proposals to âpartiallyâ air-condition the T-90S to overcome the overheating problem. But he did not elaborate as to how a cooling plant could be successfully engineered into the tank.



Turns out it was T90 who had the overheating problems..but then, the turret of T90 is too small to fit these things I guess, Arjun can also use fording method when not under war time for cooling which means the engine weill breathe through turret, while the other inlet vanes will be shut.


----------



## Interceptor

joey said:


> Interceptor it requires a CITV means you need to use one more gunners idnependent sight exclusively for commander, zraver I think i got the reason why it doesnt has CITV, remember Arjuns gunners sight was yet not indigenous other than the new batch IIRC.
> 
> Thus i guess not to escalate cost it didnt put CITV, and will put it when in next batch it will use the indigenous gunners main sight which will be considerably cheaper.
> 
> It clready costs 2x times the T90 lol.



Not really, its a bit like when Intel sells very expensive products, the point is that Research of a product could cost billions and in the end the Product has to give performance and the Product must share the price of the Research investment.

Intel spent billions on research and designing the perfect temperture coeficient and the way to stop over heating, in the end because there is this law that the maximum a silicon chip can have product is about 3.6GHz thats the max and therefore that is also the max if the particles at maximum endurance temperature will start to seperate, similar to the UTS ultimate tensile stress. The chip had such problems that it would lose its pin because of the high temperatures, therefore they used dual chips on one silicon board so that both chips can share the process load, and therefore there is less use of one processor at same time and then it is less prone to high temperature. They also made the processor pinless to avoid the pins melting etc...

Umm I got very much off topic here .

But in short the research will pay off.


----------



## Interceptor

Thanks Joey for explaining that,

That device I know what that is, the device cools electorlite fluid or umm coper fluid its really microlized, because metals are good conductors they will take the heat and the heat later can be cooled by the radiator and the fan.

However, my understanding of that system on a person, I believe it is very dangerous and should be avoided if the fluid could get in contact with the body it will harm the person severely. There is also the variable of if the system has the ability to monitor human temperature in such a manner that it can change with it, like a climate change system it essential otherwise the person will not feel comfortable.


----------



## BATMAN

joey said:


> My dear Batman, I'm afraid your woefully immature in the sidelines of briefing about Arjuns Developement, However I'll try my best to reply you, kindly do a little bit research while posting things.


I'm sorry Joey you are misserably ignorant to the fact that Arjun has about dozen defects.
Please do some research before you claim arjun better than T-90. 
I quote some references from a latest article on arjun:


> India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert ....
> Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat.....
> Conceived in 1974...
> costs $83.33 million.....
> The T-90 now serves as India&#8217;s main battle tank.
> Army sources said the Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
> But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjun&#8217;s defects have been removed, and if it passes next month&#8217;s tests, more production orders will be placed ....
> Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern..
> one official had testified, &#8220;I am afraid our quality control is very poor.
> I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory..
> &#8220;The biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control.
> 
> Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008....
> Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years ...
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...6224&C=asiapac






> lol, Does used tanks means they wont perform as new ones?


A tank near the end of his life will not perform as new one, you see Indian army will be junking 1000 in 2008 and remaining in next couple of years and if you will not import new you will end up testing arjun against junk as written in article.



> Roughly around 30 or so are ready, if you want more details let me know.


Few moments ago you were talking of two regiments.
Please correct wikipeda it still says only five are produced.
I quote from wiki and now don't say that it is written by me.


> The Indian Army has 124 Arjuns on order.
> The first 15 tanks of the 124 have already been activated. Of the remaining 109 tanks, the Indian Army is currently putting the first five tanks from the production lines at Avadi, through accelerated build quality and reliability trials. The intent is to verify whether the Arjun production has stabilized, with the requisite quality and performance requirements. Upon successful completion, the remaining 104 tanks will be manufactured in batches. The planned production rate is currently pegged at thirty tanks per year, with the Army requesting fifty per year as the ideal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_(tank)#History





joey said:


> The secret lies in extremely finer tolerance issue of Arjuns construction which tests the rep taped OFB organisation to its limits.
> If you have seen M1 Abrams production line in National Geographic you would knew how mechanized is a modern MBT production line, Indian OFB is a red tape organisation and doesnt has capability/infrastructure to produce Arjun in mass scale basis as per the requirements of tolerance and quality control laid out by DRDO to them, they have been building infrastructure for it for past few years, thus testing of each batch would ensure transition from zero production lineup to a steady production line up, and thus it is needed.


Find answers about quality, in above quote from arjun article.


> See above, how can you perfect production line without producing batches?
> It is being been achievded as we speak with each batch being tested.
> there is no rest lol.


Article says orders for production will be placed only when the tests in june will be succesful, so nothing is going on as we speak.


> Arjun has been problem free for a couple of years now, It is from official MOD report.


How can I trust it before any reports from future tests.


> No, not wrong, ask zraver, 70+ in short means carriers which can carry Arjun.


What a secret development.... arjun's fate is still not clear and IA already finished producing special carriers!!!!
what was the cost and which year did it happen?
Would these 70+ includes rail carriers too? Did you fortified the rail tracks all over India to bear 60tons?
Any news report supporting your claim?


> T90 is not a MBT, Arjun is a MBT, We have 3500 tank fleet, so a high-lo mix is needed, thus the T90S would supplement Arjun.


Read the big font in article above. It says T-90 serve as India's main battle tank



> Your wrong here, Arjun has been plagued with arms lobby game, If you check the original QSR, IA initially asked for a 60 tonne MBT , 120 mm from 105 mm gun so dont believe what you see in normal eyes read more!


No one told this before that Arms lobby was responsible for the delay in making of arjun.


> Arjun was is will outpace any T series tanks, and was designed keeping that specific details in mind, Thanks you.


No comments!!!!!!!



> I did not understood what you said, or what your suspicion has to do with reality.


You claimed 124 tanks has been produced so far and I was suspicious but you reduced the numbers to 30 in next post so now I'm more suspicious.


> Your welcome to do it, Arjun as of now cost some 17 crores with some thing imported and will be subsequently replaced by home grown things where cost will be brought down.


84MUSD+ development cost (Indian sources) and than production costs!!!! How do you calculate 17 crore?


> It does have it, as per someone who evaluated Arjun himself.
> never mind.


I previous post you said this feature will be tested only in june.


----------



## BATMAN

joey said:


> Batman, Your problem in understanding him is bringing in question the ability of your technical expertise, refrain from such thing as honestly you dont make any sense, because Arjun is not rejected.



I challenge all Indians and PPP to prove me that arjun is far better than Abram as claimed by PPP.
If you cant do it this will put question on your technical ability and the element of truth in your statements.


----------



## Samudra

In case you did not know....all answers related to ARJUN has already been posted in the last few pages. Cut the bravado and try reading previous pages before trying to make big posts and issuing challenges.


----------



## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> Exactly as stated by Joey, Arjun is here to stay, there were malign reports about Arjun, however, the recent test has shut them up!


I never disputed that, I even say that arjun is here since last 4 decades.
arjun was rejected in last tests and is struggling to make its way in IA.
Stop issuing false statements.


----------



## BATMAN

Samudra said:


> In case you did not know....all answers related to ARJUN has already been posted in the last few pages. Cut the bravado and try reading previous pages before trying to make big posts and issuing challenges.



Read this dude, this is comming from Indian mouth.  



> India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert ....
> Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat.....
> Conceived in 1974...
> costs $83.33 million.....
> The T-90 now serves as Indiaâs main battle tank.
> Army sources said the Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
> But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjunâs defects have been removed, and if it passes next monthâs tests, more production orders will be placed ....
> Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern..
> one official had testified, âI am afraid our quality control is very poor.
> I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory..
> âThe biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control.
> 
> Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008....
> Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years ...
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...6224&C=asiapac


----------



## Samudra

> Read this dude, this is comming from Indian mouth.



That crap was already posted and discussed. Get something new to tell us.


----------



## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> "Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS.



Dude, if fire control system is deficient how can it be superior than T-90. arjun has the worst firing accuracy and it has been confirmed in past by IA. should I google for u. 
Actually this was the main reason for its rejection.
Don't claim some thing which is not proven yet.


----------



## BATMAN

Samudra said:


> That crap was already posted and discussed. Get something new to tell us.



At least I have some thing to support my post and you have nothing to support yours.
Actually, I have proved all your claims crap.


----------



## joey

Since you are so much interested in this, I'll bust your false sense of security, and this will be my last reply to you unless ofcourse you bring something new to the table,



BATMAN said:


> I'm sorry Joey you are misserably ignorant to the fact that Arjun has about dozen defects.
> Please do some research before you claim arjun better than T-90.
> I quote some references from a latest article on arjun:



Your teaching me to do research?  oh well.

Number 1 - That article is a fake propaganda here is how I prove it, your welcome to prove it otherwise.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Note the quick claims on behalf of the Army...when the Army itself is very positive about the tank..the guy is shilling for wheeler dealers.. see the push for more tanks from outside.."army sources", my musharraf.. 
Also note how he picks up an unnamed sources sour grapes deposition to the Std Committee on Def.. the rest of the sources were categorical about the tanks FCS and assorted gear being top notch.. 
The slimy SOB says that the Arjun has a bad AC...the fool...no Indian tank has an AC...the liar.. 
Heat inside the tank is being addressed by a microclimate cooling garment.. 
Inaccurate gun rofl...the Arjuns gun has had the best, ie the lowest dispersion in Army trials.. 
Its pretty amusing to see *how these slime crawl out of the woodwork* when their *paymasters racket is threatened..* 
I think if the *CBI tracks his "sources", * it will find a nice "paper trail" of wheeler dealers.. 
_Thapar was in touch with that dude who got arrested recently..the guy who posted on BR saying he was "innocent", till the knock on the door.._ 
Vivek R has been asked to quickly trot out this article before the Arjun trials..and so he has..
------------------------------------------------------------------------
His another claim,

We are facing a shortfall of 3500 tanks. 
" The Defence Ministry official admitted that there is a shortfall of about 3,500 tanks and that the delivery schedule of the Arjun is not satisfactory. The Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years than it will be inducting, which will lead to further shortfalls. The Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008."

Then look what he says: the army is retiring 1000 tanks out of 3000. so either he wants us to maintain a force of 7000 tanks or that 3000 minus 1000 leads to a deficit of 3500. 

somebody teach this guy some maths or batman you dont know maths? We Indians are very good at maths just for you know 

This guy is full of it, and i don't mean his maths skills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another point, How can Arjuns AC fail when it dont even have a AC?
Which Army sources is it referring to when You have a video and a army general saying that he is 200% confident about Arjuns superiority?

His claims,

"inaccurate gun and *faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate* in very hot conditions."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another point to prove how he uses selective reports to manipulate view,

He says,

"_Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern..
*one official had testified* (note from parliamentary commmitte how he ommitted the non-expert tag) , &#8220;I am afraid our quality control is very poor. 
I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory..
&#8220;The biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control._ " , (_ note : so he concluded his conslusion by stating what a non-expert *questioned* in the parliament without feeling the need to *write on the answer* coming from the Army/MOD mouth? how amusing!_ )

*I'll put you Official Mod PArliamentary Report and You have to decide how he manipulated it*,



> *3.39 During oral evidence, on the quality of Arjun Tank, the non-official expert informed the Committee :-*
> 
> *&#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it ?&#8221;*
> 
> _During oral evidence, on the production of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :-_
> 
> &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;.. Arjun is certified by DGQA. The responsibility of Arjun
> certification is not with DGQA and still it is with DRDO
> themselves&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;These 124 tanks which have been ordered for production by the
> Army, are produced in the Ordnance Factory. We have given
> clearance for the Ordnance Factory to do internal QC. This is only
> quality control. Then, the overall AHSP, that is, Authorised Holder
> of the Sealed Particulars continues to be with DRDO till certain
> maturity level is reached in production. Now, DGQA is
> participating throughout in the inspection. They are not AHSP.
> They will become AHSP only after DRDO gives the documents to
> them. Then, the become the ultimate authority for the sealed
> particulars. Today, sealed particulars are held by DRDO. DGQA is
> fully involved in inspection&#8221;.
> 
> _*During oral evidence, on the production of MBT Arjun, the
> representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :&#8212;[/*I]
> 
> &#8220;After we took over the production from the DRDO first year we decided to deliver five tanks. These tanks were delivered last year. This year we are delivering 15 tanks more. Now 14 tanks which we had promised are ready. But while the tanks were handed over to the Army, they went for an extensive user trial. Now in the user trial some minor defects were noticed and these defects are being rectified one-by-one. Now the corrective actions which are required are expected to be completed by January this year. After this corrective action, further trials will take place. Now these are very small defects&#8221;.
> 
> *3.41 Regarding the snag, he further stated :-[/*I]
> 
> &#8220;Sir, we have driven them and for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem. What happens is that in the gun control system, there are power amplifiers which are used in the fire control system. Some temperature settings were not properly done by the parent company. These were tucked inside. As you know, now-a-days, the deck is packaged so densely even to get access to that you have to take out the whole module. So, when this type of settings get disturbed, the rule says that one has to go through the whole qualification process again. There is no change in the design. It is a temperature re-setting which was got done. That has been rectified. Now the tanks would be there by the middle of January&#8221;.
> 
> *3.42 During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :-[/*I]
> 
> &#8220;In the Arjun, we got into a little bit of a problem because certain temperature-setting switches were not tuned properly. They had to be returned. Yes, this was a problem of the Defence Research Scientists who have not seen that 60 degree setting was not kept at 60, but at 55 which is a normal standard of that company which supplied those parts follow. But we had in the prototype modified that for the 60. so, this had to be done. Once this got done, now we are ready. So some of these productions hiccup if they do take place in the initial phase, they should not dispirit us because whenever we do new products like that, we may face these kinds of problems&#8221;.
> 
> *8.17 During oral evidence, on the status of MBT Arjun, the
> representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :-[/*I]
> 
> &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.The MBT Arjun started off with a 110 mm gun but at
> the point of delivery it is already featuring 120 mm gun the stateof-
> art. We started off a rifled gun for which there was no missile
> which could be pushed through that. But we have now identified
> that missile which can be fired through that. Similarly, we have
> built in certain electronic package as part of our processing,
> computing power within the tank which will allow us to network
> into the future&#8221;.
> 
> *8.18 During oral evidence, on the production of MBT Arjun, the
> representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :-[/*I]
> 
> &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I want to tell you the roadmap of MBT Arjun as an
> hon/ Member had asked about this issue. I want to assure you that after these 15 tanks are tried by the Army, the DRDO will be
> involved only for 15 more tanks. As soon as the Ordnance Factory
> produces these 30 tanks, the DGQA will take over the responsibility
> for giving technical clearance &#8211; which DRDO is doing today &#8211; and
> the links will be broken. Thereafter, it will be entirely the Ordnance
> Factory production, and the DGQA will be responsible for its
> certification. Hopefully, this situation will remain till DRDO does
> some more research and makes a Mark II of Arjun Tank. If they
> decide to do that, then, again, the Government will start, but that
> will be only after producing 124 Tanks and not before that. We
> will produce 124 Tanks, as the Army has accepted and told us to
> produce these Tanks&#8221;.
> _


_

I gave you the official Report, care to explain the lineage of how it has been used and manipulated in the article have with the authenticated parliamentary report?

Now quickly Prove these claims of the articles,

1> Arjun has inefficient FCS - Prove it, I can prove its FCS issue has been solved by live firing of 8000 rounds.
2> Arjuns gun is not accurate - Prove it, Proof of arjuns accurate gun can be seen from the video and from the 800 live firing, plus from various other reports where Army never really complained about the gun.
3> The report claims Arjun Air conditioning failed - Prove it (when it doesnt even has a ac ROFLMAO)
4> The report cites Army sources - Show me the source, I can show you the contrary , check the video.
5> The report selectively quotes only a question asked in parliament by a non-expert and manipulates opinion, I have given you part of the original April 2007 Parliamantary report which I have, Prove it that it has not manipulated and plagiarised selective quote from parliamentary report without putting the full image forward, *prove it how can his article be authenticate when he concludes the article by making a non-official expert as official expert and reporting on the basis of what Question he asked without going into the actual answer given out off the question by MOd/Army in the parliament* (as per the original parliamentary report).




A tank near the end of his life will not perform as new one, you see Indian army will be junking 1000 in 2008 and remaining in next couple of years and

Click to expand...

The T90S are not in end of life , hell the T72's are fairly modern as well, Prove me the T90S which are nmewly acquired are at end of life.




if you will not import new you will end up testing arjun against junk as written in article.

Click to expand...

The T90S are not old ones, The article has been rebuffed already by me.




Few moments ago you were talking of two regiments.
Please correct wikipeda it still says only five are produced.
I quote from wiki and now don't say that it is written by me.

Click to expand...

124 tanks , iirc 62 per regiment was supposed to come in first batch.




Find answers about quality, in above quote from arjun article.

Click to expand...

already done , Its your turn to prove the contraries.




Article says orders for production will be placed only when the tests in june will be succesful, so nothing is going on as we speak.

Click to expand...

The production order has been placed long ago, facilities were coming up, army was doing repeatitive tests, thats how research and developement works, We fired 56 times the Nag anti tank missile, over 28 times the Akash SAM and now they are inducted.

Proof, from official parliamentary report,



*3.43 On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied as under :-*

&#8220;Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility, HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.&#8221;

Click to expand...






How can I trust it before any reports from future tests.

Click to expand...

I was talking about reports form succesful tests in ashwamedha exercises.




What a secret development.... arjun's fate is still not clear and IA already finished producing special carriers!!!!
what was the cost and which year did it happen?
Would these 70+ includes rail carriers too? Did you fortified the rail tracks all over India to bear 60tons?
Any news report supporting your claim?

Click to expand...

I have told you once, do some research on your own, IA has now all 70+ rated stuffs, and oh incase you think we dont have them fine, We will use aladins flying carpet, each for one arjun.




Read the big font in article above. It says T-90 serve as India's main battle tank

Click to expand...

Read IA's new doctrine first before lecturing me about T90 being MBT, a 3500 big tank fleet and T90S wont be the MBT, they are a part of hi-lo mix of IA's doctrine.




No one told this before that Arms lobby was responsible for the delay in making of arjun.

Click to expand...

the report you pasted is a brilliant example of one manipulated report even before test happens.

Dont you see the trend?

1> akash fails even before its trails, abc sources says what abc sources? my ***! Janes reported last Trial of Akash with C&C guidance was succesful.
2> Arjun fails even before its trials? when the ashwamedha exercise was a success and you have a video of that? got the folly?




You claimed 124 tanks has been produced so far and I was suspicious but you reduced the numbers to 30 in next post so now I'm more suspicious.

Click to expand...

Get your facts straight, 124 tanks are to be produced in first batch around 30 to 40 are ready for JRI - Joint Reception Inspection which will held in June.




I previous post you said this feature will be tested only in june.

Click to expand...

It has been tested as such in ashwamedha exercises._


----------



## joey

Interceptor said:


> Thanks Joey for explaining that,
> 
> That device I know what that is, the device cools electorlite fluid or umm coper fluid its really microlized, because metals are good conductors they will take the heat and the heat later can be cooled by the radiator and the fan.


the device does not uses copper fluid but cold water which is formed by the small system, it took 7 years to develope it, check the salient features, it uses solid state systems, it does not liberates any CFC, most importantly it consumes around 400 W power and produces around 360 W power, the efficiency is what was needed which a full fledged AC cannot give.

Arjun uses APU, a Auxillary power unit which provides Arjun with the capability to stay silent while in ready mode and can fire anytime (silent attack mode) , I think this thing gets its power off the APU.



> However, my understanding of that system on a person, I believe it is very dangerous and should be avoided if the fluid could get in contact with the body it will harm the person severely. There is also the variable of if the system has the ability to monitor human temperature in such a manner that it can change with it, like a climate change system it essential otherwise the person will not feel comfortable.


There is no fluid, it is cold water check it again.
The system ofcourse has sensors which will work just like ac, i.e. keep the temperature constant aorund 22 to 25 degrees.


----------



## EagleEyes

BATMAN said:


> At least I have some thing to support my post and you have nothing to support yours.
> Actually, I have proved all your claims crap.



BATMAN,

Please try to read a few posts that have been posted. If you still have questions. Please PM me.

Thanks.


----------



## Interceptor

joey said:


> the device does not uses copper fluid but cold water which is formed by the small system, it took 7 years to develope it, check the salient features, it uses solid state systems, it does not liberates any CFC, most importantly it consumes around 400 W power and produces around 360 W power, the efficiency is what was needed which a full fledged AC cannot give.



Cant comment on that because I dont know the internal max watt consumption, however, if you report that to be efficient as you claim then it is excellent.



joey said:


> Arjun uses APU, a Auxillary power unit which provides Arjun with the capability to stay silent while in ready mode and can fire anytime (silent attack mode) , I think this thing gets its power off the APU.



Right that is smart invention to use for that case which I understand now.



joey said:


> There is no fluid, it is cold water check it again.
> The system ofcourse has sensors which will work just like ac, i.e. keep the temperature constant aorund 22 to 25 degrees.



My mistake, because I built something very similar to that and it was for a project, and I just miss read that part, in that case the system is safe and able system to be applied to the Indian tanks which is what the system was built for I believe it was to be inducted to all of the tanks in the Indian army?


----------



## zraver

Bantam,


> Would these 70+ includes rail carriers too? Did you fortified the rail tracks all over India to bear 60tons?



trains way thousands of tons with indivual cars often exceeding 120 tons, they rails do not nee d-reinforcement



> arjun's fate is still not clear and IA already finished producing special carriers!!!!


 low boy style tank transport trailers are not very complex or expensive plus India is buddy buddy with israel who uses tanks in the Arjuns weight range, what exaclty is your point?


----------



## joey

Traverse of turret = 360
Some more on ARJUN:

Traverse rate = 45 degree per second

Elevation (+/-) = -10 and +20

Fording Ability

* Unprepared, at full speed = 1.45m
* Prepared fording (shallow fording) = 2.15m
* Snorkel = 5m



-- Angle Position Indicator

DRDO has developed the complete module including the miniature gear box and the necessary mechanical interface required to mount the resolver. The necessary electronics to process the signal for sensing the angular position to an accuracy of +2 milli radian has been developed. Currently, this unit is being used in the tank for sensing turret position.

-- Hydropneumatic Suspension system

An extremely effective hydropneumatic suspension system has been developed for MBT Arjun. The suspension is externally mounted and provides vehicle springing and damping. It consists of one bogey wheel pair for each suspension station. Gaseous medium in the hydropneumatic suspension is for all terrain maneuverability for exploiting the power available. Casing and hub of the hydropneumatic suspension are sealed for preventing dust ingression and water seepage into the casing during operation in marshy area or shallow/medium fording.

-- Touch-Screen Computers & Expert System

The integrated electrolumine- scent touch-screen display controller developed by DRDO provides excellent soldier/machine interface through appealing graphics and touch buttons. It integrates a number of sub-systems via multiple page set-up display diagnostic information through expert system software programmed in the touch-screen dashboard and consumes less power. In addition, an extensive database of a number of sub-systems of MBT can be accessed by the commander and driver through the touch of a button. This system can also be used for civilian applications. 

-- Rotary Base Junction

Rotary base junctions (RBJs) are intended to be used in AFVs for transfer and distribution of power and control signals from their stationary chassis (like the hull of a tank) to the revolving structure turret of the tank. Therefore, RBJs are required to be very highly reliable and should withstand varying environmental conditions like very high and low temperatures, dust, varying levels of shocks, bumps and vibrations. The RBJs developed indigenously for MBT Arjun weigh approximately 30 kg and provide uninterrupted supply to the turret up to 600 A of load current with a minimal voltage drop.

-- Chassis & Automotive Systems (CAS)

Chassis and Automative System of MBT Arjun comprises main chassis, power pack (1400 HP engine coupled to hydromech transmission), running gear with hydropneumatic suspension, integrated fuel system, advanced electrical system and other dedicated special systems like integrated fire detection and suppression system. The chassis is fabricated from rolled homogenous armour plate using advanced welding technique. Frontal armour is of Kanchan composite sandwitched between armour plates. This fully integrated Arjun chassis and Automative System having smooth riding characteristics can be used as a mobile platform for any advanced weapon system. 

-- Ballistic Louvers

Ballistic louvers are used in the hull structure of tank. These are configured to give protection against small arms fire and splinters and to provide adequate passage for coolant air to cool the 1500 HP power pack. These louvers are made out of alloy steel. Indigenous source for manufacturing these louvers using special extrusion technique has now been established. 

-- Track

Track is required to keep the traction of the vehicle unaffected while the vehicle is mobile even in cross-country terrain operation. The MBT Arjun is fitted with double-pin steel track with detachable rubber pads. It is made out of steel casting having two bores for insertion of rubberised pins. It is an integral piece incorporating guide horns and has got a provision for insertion of detachable pads. The end connectors are induction-hardened in the area which comes in contact with the sprocket teeth to prevent wear. 

-- Integrated Fire Suppression System for MBT Arjun 

The integrated fire and explosion suppression system developed for MBT Arjun is based on state-of-the-art technology. The indigenous development of this system is considered to be a breakthrough in the field of fire protection engineering. It is capable of suppressing hydrocarbon fuel fire/explosion resulting from an enemy hit on the tank or due to any malfunctioning of the engine, transmission or any electrical short circuiting.

The system is based on infra-red detectors for the detection of fire/explosion in the crew compartment of the battle tank and a continuous type of linear thermal detector popularly known as fire-wire

for the engine compartment. Halon-1301 has been employed as a fire extinguishing medium. The system is capable of detection and suppression of hydrocarbon fuel fire/explosion in the crew compartment within 200 milliseconds and in the engine compartment within 15 s thereby enhancing the chances of survivability of the crew and battle effectiveness of the tank. 

-- Recoil System

The Arjun recoil system is a compact, lightweight, short recoil hydro-spring type, capable Arjun recoil systemof absorbing the thrust of high pressure and high velocity gun. The system consists of two hydro-spring buffers mounted diagonally to meet the stringent space requirement inside the fighting compartment. The innovative design of taper control rod gives uniform recoil and run-out, thereby enhancing the accuracy and life of the system and the high rate of fire. The high pressure and durable packing rings coupled with high surface-finish of mating components ensure longer life and high reliability. This is a sealed system, which requires practically no maintenance. 

-- Gamma Flash Sensor

Gamma Flash Sensor is a solid-state detector-based nuclear sensor used to sense the Gamma Flash Sensornuclear explosion and provide an, electrical output that activates nuclear protection system of the tank. It meets all JSS 55555-L3 test series specifications. 
(-- Flash Sensor: 
This sensor gives the first signature of a nuclear detonation and activates the automatic NBC system of the tanks. The equipment can be mounted in tracked vehicles and can be connected to the other control units through multicore cable of convenient length.

-- Roentgenometer RMI 102
This vehicle-mounted instrument measures the gamma radiation level at a place due to a nuclear fallout or leakage in a nuclear reactor installation

The above two indigenous products have been approved for use in MBT Arjun and T-72 tanks and have replaced imported systems fitted till now in these tanks thus saving valuable foreign exchange. These are under production through trade. )

-- Filter Elements for MBT Arjun Gun Control System

Three types of filter elements for gun control system of MBT Arjun have been designed and developed. These filters ensure efficient operation of servo actuators in the MBT gun control system. The filter elements have been fabricated with fibreglass media and stainless steel wiremesh for higher collapse rating.


----------



## BATMAN

Arjun facts and remarks it earned after every field trials, ever conducted by IA.
Naturally, all this past history tend us not to believe any claims before any trials or credible certification of its features.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/16589.html


> The Arjun tank has no future. It still cannot fire straight. The T-90, a far superior tank, can kill the Arjun. We would not cross any border with these tanks.
> Strong words, from Brigadier D K Babbar, the Armyâs pointsman for the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun project at the Mechanised Forces directorate.....
> According to the Armyâs latest trials, the decade-old problem of overheating persists. Two of the tankâs main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunnerâs main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjunâs abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee.....
> trials in summer 1997, which were criticized in a 1998 CAG report for a series of malfunctions, transmission failures and overheating.....
> Pak Al-Khalid tank was productionised and had begun inductions. When contacted, Roy Choudhary said: âI was a strong proponent of the Arjun tank but its performance was disappointing.â .....
> On October 12, Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh told The Indian Express that it was decided â after the recent trials â that the production-series tanks will be stripped of their indigenous tracks and will have imported ones. So will the first few tanks that roll out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory outside Chennai. In other words, after three decades of research, Main Battle Tank Arjun cannot stand on its own âindigenousâ feet....



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm


> The automotive trials of two prototypes carried out by Army during 1988-89 revealed major deficiencies. The Army, therefore, on 26 July 1989 wanted these deficiencies to be sorted out before commencement of production of pre-production series (PPS). However, on 31 July 1989 Ministry decided to place orders for the production of PPS tanks. Two fully integrated prototypes were given to the Army for full fledged evaluation only in March 1990 after the commencement of production of PPS tanks. The evaluation trials of the prototypes also revealed major deficiencies. Subsequent trials were conducted on PPS tanks. Till July 1997, 15 pre-production series tanks which were subjected to extensive user and troop trials failed to meet fully even the bottom line parameters of the user.



http://www.india-today.com/itoday/24111997/defence.html


> As for Arjun, "it is a tank with potential," says a senior armoured corps officer, "but it is far from a world-class tank". Arjun is typical of how the DRDO built up plenty of hype but failed to deliver, both in terms of performance and time schedules.....
> the engine available is a 1400 hp German diesel, which is not powerful enough, especially in summer when high temperature reduces its performance. Most disturbing are continuing doubts about the accuracy of its gun, which, strangely enough, is more accurate when it fires on the move, rather than when it's standing still. ???????????



Apparently the poorest element of the tank being its Fire Control System and its shooting accuracy.
Not suitable for hot climates i.e. deserts.
Low power to weight ratio makes it less agile too.
Very old design and I expect it to be out matched by new rival tanks, comming out in a decade or so.
Due to above grave issues associated, I also expect it to be inducted in limited numbers by IA.


----------



## zraver

Yup, the Indian's haven't spent the last 8-9 years fixing the deficencies discovered in 88-89. The T-90 is junk compared to the Arjun with inferior armor and survivability, inferior mobility and fire on the move envelope, an inferior power pack and power to weight ratio, increased gorund pressure, reduced crew effectiveness and increased combat fatigue, inferior battle management systems, inferior electronics, no room for major moderinisation etc.

As for the fire control issue specifically, the Israelies have been involved for a number of years now and they are world class fire control designers so betting Pakistan's future on an article written years ago is fool hardy.


----------



## joey

so your now posting old articles? geez sooo insecure!! carry on regardless of what you believe you can *never* come to technical grounds and argue 

I wont feed you much but just it happens that now I'm free.



BATMAN said:


> Arjun facts and remarks it earned after every field trials, ever conducted by IA.


Arjun as per MOD 2007 report has conducted



> .41 Regarding the snag, he further stated :-
> 
> *âSir, we have driven them and for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds*. There was no problem. What happens is that in the gun control system, there are power amplifiers which are used in the fire control system. Some temperature settings were not properly done by the parent company. These were tucked inside. As you know, now-a-days, the deck is packaged so densely even to get access to that you have to take out the whole module. So, when this type of settings get disturbed, the rule says that one has to go through the whole qualification process again. There is no change in the design. It is a temperature re-setting which was got done. That has been rectified. Now the tanks would be there by the middle of Januaryâ.



Can you prove me all these exercises or trials you quoted have constituted 60000 kms?  



> Naturally, all this past history tend us not to believe any claims before any trials or credible certification of its features.


I'm talking of Ashwamedha trials, since your talking of history of Arjun tanks why not look what is the proper QGSR OF IT? (QUALITITATIVE GENERAL STAFF REQUIREMENTS)

History of Arjun tank,
http://*****************/history-of-arjun-tank-development

History of past trials?
I want you to proove official figures here that the number of trials you quoted, how come it can cover 60000 kms?

Credible Certification? Who does that? Definitely not PAC for Arjun nor PDF, or I'm missing something here?



> 8.18 During oral evidence, on the production of MBT Arjun, the
> representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :-
> 
> ââ¦â¦â¦â¦.I want to tell you the roadmap of MBT Arjun as an
> hon/ Member had asked about this issue. I want to assure you that after these 15 tanks are tried by the Army, the DRDO will be
> involved only for 15 more tanks. As soon as the Ordnance Factory
> produces these 30 tanks, the DGQA will take over the responsibility
> for giving technical clearance â which DRDO is doing today â and
> the links will be broken. *Thereafter, it will be entirely the Ordnance
> Factory production, and the DGQA will be responsible for its
> certification.* Hopefully, this situation will remain till DRDO does
> some more research and makes a Mark II of Arjun Tank. If they
> decide to do that, then, again, the Government will start, but that
> will be only after producing 124 Tanks and not before that. We
> will produce 124 Tanks, as the Army has accepted and told us to
> produce these Tanksâ.



Do you have official DGQA report to prove your claims and not some indian exprele a la story.



> http://www.indianexpress.com/story/16589.html


Dont quote me Indian Express, neither Shiv arror, if you want to substantiate your claims, contact Army headquerters and check if the officers said above and their rank and from which corps they are.

I'm not here to listen blabaering of Shiv arror, which you should know from my past response to you.



> In other words, after three decades of research, Main Battle Tank Arjun cannot stand on its own âindigenousâ feet


Indeed, how amusing  So the gun of Abrams must be imported thus Abrams after so many decades cannot stand on its won feet  what knid of logic? 




> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm


It is very very correct, There were 14 problems around 1995, This is 2007, 10 years from then the problems has been resolved.

I'm sorry but if you expect India to make the perfect in its first try, it cannot because it has to do 60000 kms run and 8000 round fire before it gets certified.



> http://www.india-today.com/itoday/24111997/defence.html


Again quoting from Army generals? I'll quote you peoples who loves mig 35, some who likes F18, so? There is a divide inside Army headquarters over change in certain things of induction of Arjun, and ofcourse change in their pockets from the special lobbies.

I can quote you from a IIt professor who thinks ndia should have better went off of joining the Mig 33 project with RSK-Mig, so thats gospel? eh?



> Apparently the poorest element of the tank being its Fire Control System and its shooting accuracy.


Says who you?

From Official MOD Report 2007,



> MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at over 2500 meters.



Do you want me to bring peoples here who have witnessed Arjuns firing? 
Or you want me to believe what a abc person of Army , media quotes? out of 1 million + army?

Latest report are with frontier India, kindly check the accuracy of gun, check DRDO's 120mm gun section and its MRS (muzzle reference system) and its accuracy provided by two axis electro-hydraulic stabilized platform as well.



> Not suitable for hot climates i.e. deserts.


Prove it with FACTS.



> Low power to weight ratio makes it less agile too.


Hehe, Less agile like? you want this to make a AoA or a Roll rate?

Some points to measure agility,

1> Lower GPSI than T90!! means it is less weighty than T90 in a inertial reference frame where if you think your the ground and Arjun is sitting on you.

thjere is a APU, thus 100 Hp is not signifantly decreasing any mroeo T/W's , 1500 HP would have been good surely, but then again so CITV would have been good, it will come there is upgrade potential.



> Very old design


Check JDR(Janes) 88-91 one od the issues, had a complete coverage of ARJUN Technology.
and oh would love to know what will be a new design? 



> and I expect it to be out matched by new rival tanks, comming out in a decade or so.


Indeed, it will be out-matched by XK2, M1A2 SEP etc , definitely not by some 125 mm T stuff, Thanks, Remember There will be a MK2 as well.



> Due to above grave issues associated,


Correction : Grave issues which *were* there in 1995.



> I also expect it to be inducted in limited numbers by IA.


hehe the last resort a man in insecurity goes to, 124 is not limited numbers, what do you think Army will induct 200-300 tanks and inevest over 1.2 billion dollars to keep it in my backyard?

Let the delivery of 124 complete first.


----------



## joey

zraver said:


> As for the fire control issue specifically, the Israelies have been involved for a number of years now and they are world class fire control designers so betting Pakistan's future on an article written years ago is fool hardy.



zraver the Army has never complained about Gun/FCS (ask dberwal, and there are other sources which i'll giove you later), the issue was with suspension first, issue was with tracks which are now fixed by L&T, India , issue was with IGMS, remember BEL was manufacturing liscenced produced 2nd Generation ITT from a dutch company, but US stopped that after when they knew about it, it delayed the developement of TI/IGMS. Issue was with overheating of certain LRU's which was fixed, issue was with making it modern, so it outpaces the T90 and meets the QSR, please check the developement of Arjun tank,

http://*****************/history-of-arjun-tank-development

The HUGE HUGE issue was with production, OFB cannot even make properly T90 till now, and it has ZLICH infrastructure to manufacture Arjun tank with its finer tolerance!

These are the countries that makes ITT rest imports them or liscenced manufactures them.

USA - Litton, ITT, Northrop Grumman - Gen3 GaAs standard
Russia - JSC Katod, Novosibirsk - Gen2+ multialkali and Gen3 GaAs standard
Japan - Hamamatsu - Gen3 GaAs standard
France/Netherlands - Photonis-DEP - XD-4, XR5, eXtended Hypergen XH72


----------



## joey

Arjun as you see today , revised work started around 1995 only, while only one prorotype was built from 1989, after change in QGSR in around 1986, 1989 to 1995 saw changes being made to prototypes and get around 5 to 6 tans ready by 1995~1997, then further developements, and developement was completed around 2004!

With 5 tanks rolling out of factory in 2004.


----------



## Bull

BATMAN said:


> Arjun facts and remarks it earned after every field trials, ever conducted by IA.
> Naturally, all this past history tend us not to believe any claims before any trials or credible certification of its features.
> 
> http://www.indianexpress.com/story/16589.html
> 
> 
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.india-today.com/itoday/24111997/defence.html
> 
> 
> Apparently the poorest element of the tank being its Fire Control System and its shooting accuracy.
> Not suitable for hot climates i.e. deserts.
> Low power to weight ratio makes it less agile too.
> Very old design and I expect it to be out matched by new rival tanks, comming out in a decade or so.
> Due to above grave issues associated, I also expect it to be inducted in limited numbers by IA.



Well i guess this is yr 2007 and not 1997. Whats the point in making such rubbish and idiotic posts which are decades old. If you dont know any **** about whats happenign then ask a few who knows or start reading up.


----------



## Bull

joey said:


> so your now posting old articles? geez sooo insecure!! carry on regardless of what you believe you can *never* come to technical grounds and argue
> 
> I wont feed you much but just it happens that now I'm free.



Joey, pls just dont bother. He is not here learn or discuss anything. Its just one of those losers who are killing time here.


----------



## BATMAN

Bull said:


> Joey, pls just dont bother. He is not here learn or discuss anything. Its just one of those losers who are killing time here.



Dude, I'm content of what God have blessed me with (Al-Hamdullilah).
Do you know you are a big sucker hanging around here who know nothing of me and what will be coming of me.


----------



## BATMAN

Bull said:


> Well i guess this is yr 2007 and not 1997. Whats the point in making such rubbish and idiotic posts which are decades old. If you dont know any **** about whats happenign then ask a few who knows or start reading up.



I thought you knew the latest, any how go inform yourself at below link. It is about week old.

https://defence.pk/forums/showpost.php?p=73018&postcount=47

I think you are only reading what suits you, otherwise you would have never asked for it.
I hope, now you are all informed about Arjun, old and new. i.e. 1997 and 2007.


----------



## BATMAN

Dear Joey, what ever I have said was referenced from (Indian) press reports.
I believe those article writers\reporters cannot make up every thing by themself!

And, In response to all what you have written above; I say Arjun is still a testing tank, which has not passed a single field trial as of today. 
Only definate thing about Arjun development is that half century is a (world) record making time.
As you explained that some (hell of a) lobby is keeping it away from induction, than why don't DRDO go for international certifications.


----------



## BATMAN

Another latest article in support of my arguments/posts 
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070013436


> Next month's trials will determine whether the Arjun will be just a token presence in the army's fleet or maybe someday its backbone. So far, an unconvinced army has ordered just 124 tanks for its 3800 strong fleet.



Certifying any specifications or issuing comparison statement before any proper testing do no good other than raising doubts and suspisions on subject item.
All what you have posted above is lot of bla bla without understanding my point. Do you see it now?
I also questioned the number of already manufactured tanks, quote from same article:


> Fourteen Arjun tanks are ready for the June comparative trials against the T-72s and T-90s that the army puts its faith in. Will the Arjun come out tops?


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> Dear Joey, what ever I have said was referenced from (Indian) press reports.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe those article writers\reporters cannot make up every thing by themself!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok does your sentiment apply to those writer's who have written good about the tank, or only the one's who have bashed it.
> 
> 
> 
> And, In response to all what you have written above; I say Arjun is still a testing tank, which has not passed a single field trial as of today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> single trial, you have access to arjun's testing!!! from what i know most people dont know the test specifications. And it has passed several test. Maybe someone should post video's of arjun doing the 3m obstacle clearance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only definate thing about Arjun development is that half century is a (world) record making time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> shows your knowledge of the arjun development cycle. you are here to just drum up something without any knowledge of facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> international certifications.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please tell us about the international certifications for tanks?
> do you have a body that we dont know of, the secret international society which clears tanks for production even though the local government hasnt.
Click to expand...


----------



## Adux




----------



## JK!

What I like about the Arjun program is the proposed variants to give a common heavy armour fleet. 

These include AEV, ARRV, AVLB, Air Defence and the artillary piece. 

I only wish Pakistan had something like these planned for Al Khalid.


----------



## BATMAN

JK! said:


> What I like about the Arjun program is the proposed variants to give a common heavy armour fleet.
> These include AEV, ARRV, AVLB, Air Defence and the artillary piece.



How unfortunate for a decade's long MBT programme to end like this.
Many analysts had already predicted in past that Arjun will only be inducted (if they ever will be) in IA as a token tank and will never be a MBT horse.
Finally, a support vehicle is an intelligent solution.
BTW, any news of June testing? 



> I only wish Pakistan had something like these planned for Al Khalid.



Al-Khalid is MBT and has a great furture.


----------



## joey

Batman your spoilling this thread and repeating the article that I refutted point by point WITH OFFICIAL SOURCE, June testing wont be reported like you want it to be its not testing but JRI (joint reception inspection) of around 30 tanks which is a batch production.


----------



## BATMAN

If quoting from an unofficial source is considered as 'spoiling the thread' than still I count my self in last runners. 

What the hell is JRI !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> If quoting from an unofficial source is considered as 'spoiling the thread' than still I count my self in last runners.
> 
> What the hell is JRI !!!!!!!!!



You find no testing only strange in other countries, 
Pakistan inducts without testing..


----------



## con

It is almost the end of june. Wonder where the testing is?


----------



## con

JK! said:


> What I like about the Arjun program is the proposed variants to give a common heavy armour fleet.
> 
> These include AEV, ARRV, AVLB, Air Defence and the artillary piece.
> 
> I only wish Pakistan had something like these planned for Al Khalid.



It is good to have a multi-purpose base which can be used for other vehicles,however there is one "expensive" element to it. The engine.
It could be used for things like SPA and bridge layers,but would be expensive for stuff like SAM carriers etc.


----------



## Contrarian

Adux said:


> Pakistan inducts without testing..



That is cuz its already tested in China


----------



## BATMAN

and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and has been tested in Pakistan by PA and military delegates from various other countries.  

*What the hell is JRI ????*


----------



## Adux

There is a visible lack of knowledge in this fellow


----------



## con

BATMAN said:


> and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and has been tested in Pakistan by PA and military delegates from various other countries.
> 
> *What the hell is JRI ????*



What was tested? AK? 
I always wondered what was the feedback from the Saudi test? It was reported almost 3 years back. Long time to test a tank isn't it?

why didn't the Saudi's accept the tank?


----------



## JK!

con said:


> It is good to have a multi-purpose base which can be used for other vehicles,however there is one "expensive" element to it. The engine.
> It could be used for things like SPA and bridge layers,but would be expensive for stuff like SAM carriers etc.



I see your point but I think they are probably referring to a German Gepard type SPAAG system with automatic cannons


----------



## JK!

BATMAN said:


> Al-Khalid is MBT and has a great furture.



Look up Zravers criticisms in the army section for tank upgrades and it is clear that things need rectifying.


----------



## Keysersoze

JK! said:


> Look up Zravers criticisms in the army section for tank upgrades and it is clear that things need rectifying.



There may be criticisms to be aimed at the AK however you have to bear in mind that it would mostly be facing T-72's or T-90's. Which the estimable Mr Zraver has also stated that it would have an edge over. I am sure the AK-2 would have more than enough punch to deal with another problems that would arise from the smaller number of Arjuns.


----------



## BATMAN

Sorry folks Arjun testing didn't took place in June and the date has been moved forward to September but again as we all know it will be hard to find 50 deg. in september, so I don't see a logical point in holding the tests dates other than June.
It seems Arjun will never be placed in hot conditions and recent order of Russian tanks confirms that it was decided long before.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...eadline=Army+to+get+14+Arjun+tanks+for+trials


> Indian Army to get 14 Arjun tanks for field trials
> The Indian Army has agreed to take 14 indigenously developed main battle tanks (MBT) Arjun for field trials by September 30, it was announced on Monday.
> 
> The decision was taken after successful demonstration of all modifications including medium fording or crossing a water body to Defence Minister AK Antony and other senior officials at Avadi in Tamil Nadu where the tank is being built, a defence ministry statement said.
> 
> It is learnt that these tanks are the same ones that were fielded in desert conditions for the first time at an army war game in Rajasthan in May after which some modifications were sought.
> 
> Antony, who was on a day's visit to the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, was apprised of the various capabilities of the Arjun that has been 34 years in the making.
> 
> "The defence minister congratulated all the stake holders for jointly solving the problems relating to the tank to the satisfaction of the armed forces," the statement said.
> 
> Senior defence ministry officials, including Secretary (Defence Production) KP Singh, and senior army officers witnessed the demonstration.
> 
> *While not officially going on record, the army is known to be extremely unhappy with the Arjun, having listed 14 defects that need to be rectified.
> 
> These include a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally deserts - and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees celsius.*
> 
> At a review meeting with the DRDO in April, Antony is known to have asked the organisation to get its act together to rectify these defects or the government might have to take another look at the entire programme.
> 
> Parliament's Standing Committee on Defence has, in two reports earlier this year, remarked adversely on the slow pace of Arjun's development and asked the DRDO to quicken the process.
> 
> The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO had announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled only in 1995.
> 
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne vehicle with a 120 mm gun.
> 
> The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. However, delays in the Arjun project, and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.
> 
> Of these, 186 were built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.
> 
> With the Arjun development delayed still further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s.


----------



## con

Buddy,
Please read the report properly. If the tanks were used in a war excerise,what is left to trial in September?
The writer is a dork. Go through a few pages back and you will find the same words which you have highlighted. That "14 defects" is doing the rounds from lot of months now.
14 defects and still it was used in a war games?

They just copy from earlier report without knowing the head or tail.


----------



## BATMAN

Dear con, I can post many news links on June testing, would you term all of them headless writers? Again you believe what serve you but reject the rest.


> war game in Rajasthan in May after which some modifications were sought.


Have you ever wonderd why those tanks were returned to DRDO after exercises. Why are you ignoring the visit of defence minister, he visited the factory to see the results of modifations made in response of those 14 famous defects.

There are reliable news and reports on internet which says DRDO has decided to scrap its fire control system which cannot operate in temperatures above 41 deg. and will buy what ever is available off the shelf.

I read in another article that Army was forced by the government to place order of 124 tanks (in 2001), which are still in production ever since. What do you think those tanks will be ever produced.

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/154119.php/Indian-Army-to-conduct-trials-of-modified-Arjun-tanks


> The Army was asked by the Government to purchase 124 Arjun tanks.


Principaly local tank should be in major numbers but the fact is opposite. Does this tells nothing, to you.
There is nothing to be proud of Arjun.


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> Principaly local tank should be in major numbers but the fact is opposite. Does this tells nothing, to you.
> There is nothing to be proud of Arjun.



Guess, what einstien, all the members of tanknet are so friggin impressed by it especially its suspension. If you cant understand good literature not our problem!!!! 

But then again under-estimating is your trait.


----------



## BATMAN

Guess what newton, I'm more impressed by the suspension of BMW, but can it play MBT ???? 
All those reports are written by Indians not by me and ask IA why they are underestimating the wonder of world.
Go fix your fire control.


----------



## zeus

army already has 30+14 arjun tank and other tanks will be delivered by 2009 and it is initial order and no were final order ( try proving that ) 14 defects was mentioned in 2003 it is classic case of cut Paste and copy and standing committee report on arjun by GOI says that all major issues have been solved ,another classic example is that visit of Defence Minister Shri AK Antony and other senior officials from the Ministry of Defence including the Secretary Defence Production Shri KP Singh and senior Army officials was to check Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, was apprised of the various capabilities of MBT Arjun Tank and not to check any defects in the tank.they were shown the various production capabilities at HVF. The Defence Minister congratulated all the stake holders for jointly solving the problems relating to the tank to the satisfaction of the Armed Forces.and *Arjun performed medium fording ( i.e. going underwater)* in front of all the delegates


----------



## zeus

BATMAN said:


> Guess what newton, I'm more impressed by the suspension of BMW, but can it play MBT ????
> All those reports are written by Indians not by me.
> Go fix your fire control.




try what arjun did with your BMW


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> Guess what newton, I'm more impressed by the suspension of BMW, but can it play MBT ????
> All those reports are written by Indians not by me and ask IA why they are underestimating the wonder of world.
> Go fix your fire control.



Dont try to be funny, you dont have it in you!!!!!So please dont try it.
Please register yourself in Tanknet or have a discussion with Zraver, People who have actually used Tanks. 

And dont waste my time,


----------



## BATMAN

Zeus my point was that first thing tank need to do is fire and Arjun cannot fire straight and cannot fire at all at temperatures above 41 deg.
It dosn't make difference if your suspension equates that of BMW.

About the order I have also posted Indian news links, which says that IA was forced to place order of those tanks.

Those 14 tanks you are ranting around are prototypes and nothing more.


----------



## zeus

double post deleted


----------



## zeus

BATMAN if you keep on reading article by those writers well i cannot help (still understandable) 

Delay in induction of the new Arjun tanks averted

Induction of the new Arjun Tanks which was being delayed by Indian Army successfully passed all tests.* Indian Army delayed the induction of the 9 Arjun Tanks by giving reason that Arjun Tank should have medium fording capability. Defence research and Development Organisation pointed out that Arjun Tank already has the capability of medium fording and could remain in medium waters for more than 20 minutes against just 3 minutes of T-72 kind of tanks. The Arjun Tank Radiator is capable of using water as a cooling agent when medium fording, where as, the T-72 radiator is shut off during medium fording resulting in rise in engine temperature. Even without modifications Arjun Tanks collects only 5-10 liters of water inside in those 15 and more minutes which is of no consequence. Barring some minor instances Indian Army never had to medium ford in both western and eastern borders in 1971. *The modifications are more of time consuming mechanical in nature. Indian Army wanted complete ceiling which DRDO promised in future makes.

More at *****************


----------



## zeus

BATMAN said:


> Zeus my point was that first thing tank need to do is fire and Arjun cannot fire straight and cannot fire at all at temperatures above 41 deg.
> It dosn't make difference if your suspension equates that of BMW.
> 
> About the order I have also posted Indian news links, which says that IA was forced to place order of those tanks.
> 
> Those 14 tanks you are ranting around are prototypes and nothing more.



14 tanks i am ranting is Limited production tanks and not prototypes get your facts right ,and Arjun fired 600 rounds from the same tank and same gun in test condition and even fired lahat accurately ,army has never complained about its gun ever other then DDM articles ,even Arjun tanker who is veteran in T-72 claims it has much more fire power then other tanks in army inventory ,this news and reports are from horses mouth other then this DDM writers so called sources


----------



## BATMAN

Are you saying that only those are believeable whom you certify!
Here are the best remarks of Army cheif about Arjun.
IA returned the tanks to DRDO after these games.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3113


> Arjun Tanks Tested in Ashwamedh War Games; Performance Evaluated: Army ChiefDated 2/5/2007
> Almost 24 years after its first prototype rolled out, the country's indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun today underwent baptism by fire as it took part for the first time in the biggest Indian army exercises in last two years.
> 
> 14 Arjun tanks crossed swords with the 100s of Russian-supplied T-90 and T-72 tanks in the final phase of month-long exercises 'Ashwamedha' and the Army Chief Gen JJ Singh, who witnessed the war games close to Pakistan border, said "performance of the tanks would be analysed".
> 
> Notwithstanding the indigenous tanks taking part for the first time in the exercises in which live ammunition was used, Singh said Arjun would still have to go through comparative trials with Russian tanks later this year.
> 
> "The comparative trials would clear the induction of the first batch of Arjuns," senior officers told PTI. DRDO's Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi has rolled out and handed over 15 tanks to the Army for evaluation.
> 
> DRDO officials said that only after certification by the Army, a go ahead would be given for full commercial production of 124 Arjun tanks.
> 
> "Arjun tanks were fielded in the exercise to test their capability and to see how best to deploy them" Army Chief told reporters.


----------



## zeus

BATMAN IA as not yet inducted them so they (14 tanks) had to be returned to them (DRDO) and after further testing in September only then Arjun will be part of IA Armour and whole testing is done under supervision of army officials by army tankers and not by drdo ,


----------



## BATMAN

Army to rectify Arjuns mobility defects 
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/29951.html
Suman Sharma 


> The first lot of the indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tanks (MBT), which made their debut at the ongoing corps level war-game in the deserts of Rajasthan, will be scrutinised by Army Chief General JJ Singh during field trials scheduled for July this year at the Mahajan field firing range. After a two-month exercise here, the Army has recognised persisting mobility defects in the tank, problems that have dogged the tank programme for years.
> Regarding the performance of a squadron of 15 MBT Arjuns from the Bikaner-based 43 Armoured Regiment, General Singh said today, We dont want to be at a disadvantage when we are challenged. We cannot put the lives of our men in danger on account of malfunctioning of any component of the tank. The concerns will be addressed.
> Highly placed sources said the Arjun squadron, which has been deployed in the five-day Army exercise Ashwamedha in Rajasthan, had serious problems in its torsion bar, which broke owing to jerks while speed driving. Besides, the leakage in the hydro pneumatic suspension system, the tanks German MTU 838 Ka-501 engine is also a cause of concern.
> Exercise results till the fourth-day showed that the tank was neither ready for induction nor was suitable for war-maneuvers. A personnel said that the height of the tank was also not suited for wars.
> Other challenges gripping the tank were the non-integration of the fire control system and the gunners main sight. According to a source, the sight, which may have two in ten chances of falling, could be entertained as those two chances could be predicted in a real war. The fire control system, which took into account the wind, heat and internal temperature, had to be integrated for accurate firing. The turret made of Kanchan armour is the only thing that the DRDO can boast of.
> The Directorate General Mechanised Forces of the Army has made it clear that the Arjun, in its present state, was unacceptable to the Army, said a source. With a cost overrun of almost 20 times the original estimate, this appears to be the highest percentage overrun for any DRDO project so far.


----------



## BATMAN

IA have all the justification for rejecting this crap.
I respect Singh for the reason that he did not bow down to the imense political pressure and put his mens life at risk.


----------



## Contrarian

How old is the report you are posting? Over 2 months old. How long back were the excercises conducted...the army war excercises? Does timing mean anything to you?


----------



## Adux

_*hydro pneumatic suspension system*_


HUH!!!!! The Arjun doesnt have such a System as far as I know.


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## con

BATMAN said:


> Army to rectify Arjun&#8217;s mobility defects
> http://www.indianexpress.com/story/29951.html
> Suman Sharma



Now since you "sound" intelligent,with posting lot of proofs etc,now tell me can a tank have a torsion bar and hydro pnenumatic suspension at the same time?
How can a torsion bar break when it is not even present in Arjun?

Now lets says Indians are idiots.They cant do anything. But then do you believe Germans wont be able to make the MTU engine work in the desert even after so many years.? So you saying even the German are useless?

Hence I suggest first "read" and understand the report you post. You would be doing a lot of good for yourself by knowing what is a good report.

As far as dismissing reports is concerned,Indians themselves are the biggest critics of Arjun. We have bee keeping track of Arjun development for a long time.Lets says we a good position to know what is good and what is a junk report.


----------



## con

Adux said:


> _*hydro pneumatic suspension system*_
> 
> 
> HUH!!!!! The Arjun doesnt have such a System as far as I know.



Arjun has hydro pneumatic suspension not the WW2 style torsion bar. 
This is the reason for the amazing suspension display you saw.
Gives ability to shoot at 0-40kmph.


----------



## zeus

BATMAN again you posted a article where writer claims according to the " source " while i can show you reports of standing committee report on Arjun 


Committee Observation: "The Committee are deeply concerned about the progress of Arjun Tank as its production schedule are going very slow. The Committee, as recommended in their earlier reports, desire that Ordnance Factory in coordination with DRDO should carry out suitable modifications in &#8216;Gunners main sight&#8217; and &#8216;Gun control system&#8217; of the Arjun Tank at the earliest and hand over the rectified Tanks to the Army 2007-08. The Committee also stress that time limit prescribed should not be further extended. The Committee also desire that accountability for delay in production of the Arjun Tank may be fixed".

MoD/DRDO Response: *All the technical issues in the Gunner&#8217;s Main Sight and Gun Control System have been resolved. Suitable modifications have been carried out in these sub-systems on the initial five tanks of MBT Arjun by DRDO, the agency involved for conception and development of the project. After successful DRDO evaluation, five tanks have already been handed over to Army on 20th Jun 2006. *Army has been invited for Joint Receipt Inspection (JRI) of Nine more tanks. The JRI is likely to commence from 1st week of February 2007. It is expected that a total of 29 MBT Arjun tanks will be ready for inspection by Army by the end of March 2007. The concern of the Committee for fixing up accountability for delays is noted. In a project of this magnitude involving design, development, manufacturing, and integration of diverse technologies, delays normally happen due to technical hitches in perfecting the technology. (Ministry of Defence OM No. H-11013/15/2006/D(Parl) dated 15.2.2007)

Committee Recommendation: The Committee note that all technical issues relating to Arjun Tank have been resolved and after successful evaluation five tanks have been handed over to Army in June 2006 and 29 MBT Arjun Tanks will be ready for inspection by Army by the end of March 2007. The Committee hope that progress of Arjun Tank will go on as per schedule and in future there will not be any technical problem in operation of Arjun Tank in any form in order to avoid frequent discussion on this matter. The Committee strongly recommend that accountability may be fixed for inordinate delay in production of MBT Arjun and the Committee may be informed about the action taken in this matter.

MoD/DRDO Testimony on What Went Wrong: In March 1974, the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) in order to put India on the world map along with other countries capable of mastering the technology of designing and developing their own MBTs. DRDO was nominated to execute the mission. The Chronology of Development is as under:

Development of first prototype &#8212; November 1983
Development and production of next &#8212; November 1983 to 1992
Series prototypes (12 Numbers) Development and production of Pre-Production Series &#8212; 1992 to 1995
Production of another three PPS tanks &#8212; 1995-1996
Rolling out of five Limited Series &#8212; 07 August 2004
Production (LSP) tanks Five LSP tanks handed over to 43 Armoured Regiment &#8212; February 2005

Committee: The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied as under:

MoD/DRDO: MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T- 90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank. A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised. Some of the salient features of the three tanks are: Four men operated crew, 120 mm gun, 60 tons weight, powered by1400-1500 hp engine. And for T-90/72 tanks: three men operated crew, 125 mm gun, 50 tons weight, powered by 780-1000 hp engine*. MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank
(LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability.* MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs.

Committee: The Committee desired to know the reason behind the cost escalation as the original cost of MBT project was Rs. 15.50 crore in 1974 which escalated to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Ministry submitted the following reason:

MoD/DRDO: The original scope & requirement of 15 pre-Prod tanks was enhanced. 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks involving production cost of Rs. 110 cr. is included in the development cost.* Accuracy of fire has been enhanced&#8221;.*

Committee: The Ministry was asked to provide the latest status and import content in MBT Arjun. The Ministry supplied the information as under:

MoD/DRDO: Main Battle Tank Arjun is currently under production at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi under the aegis of Ordnance Factory Board, Users have placed an indent for 124 tanks, out of which the production for the year 2005-06 is expected to be 15 Nos. The entire quantity of 124 Nos. is planned to be produced by March 2008. Power pack, Gunner&#8217;s Main Sight and Track are imported items, which work out to 58&#37; of the cost per tank. The import content can be progressively reduced with increased production orders.

Commitee: The Ministry was again asked when the import content of the tank is 58%, how increased indigenous production can reduce import contents. The Ministry was also asked to give price comparison of Arjun Tank with T &#8211; 90 Tank. The Ministry replied as under:

MoD/DRDO: Indigenous Gunner&#8217;s Main Sight (IGMS) is an integrated gyrostabilized sight consisting of thermal imager, laser range finder, and day sight with inbuilt fire control computer for ballistic computation. This system enables the crew of the tank to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions by day and night with enhanced hit probability. Suitable indigenous power Packs are not available for application in MBT. Indigenous production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for MBT Arjun considering the economy of scale. A project for development of indigenous power pack is planned in XI Five Year Plan. There are few vendors in the world who can manufacture gunner&#8217;s main sight. DRDO is developing indigenous gunner&#8217;s main sight. It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks. Indigenous track is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos. Licensed production of the above items may be feasible with enhanced order quality for Arjun tanks and may result in reduction in import contents. T-90 is a forty-ton class tank. It cannot be compared with MBT Arjun in terms of lethality power and protection. The present cost of MBT Arjun is 16.80 crore. The production cost of T-90 is being ascertained from Ordnance Factory Board.

During oral evidence, on the quality of Arjun Tank, the nonofficial expert informed the Committee:MoD/DRDO: Arjun is certified by DGQA. The responsibility of Arjun certification is not with DGQA and still it is with DRDO themselves. These 124 tanks which have been ordered for production by the Army, are produced in the Ordnance Factory. We have given clearance for the Ordnance Factory to do internal QC. This is only quality control. Then, the overall AHSP, that is, Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars continues to be with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production. Now, DGQA is participating throughout in the inspection. They are not AHSP. They will become AHSP only after DRDO gives the documents to them. Then, the become the ultimate authority for the sealed particulars. Today, sealed particulars are held by DRDO. DGQA is fully involved in inspection.

After we took over the production from the DRDO first year we decided to deliver five tanks. These tanks were delivered last year. This year we are delivering 15 tanks more. Now 14 tanks which we had promised are ready. But while the tanks were handed over to the Army, they went for an extensive user trial. Now in the user trial some minor defects were noticed and these defects are being rectified one-by-one. Now the corrective actions which are required are expected to be completed by January this year. After this corrective action, further trials will take place. Now these are very small defects.

MoD/DRDO: Si*r, we have driven them and for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem. *What happens is that in the gun control system, there are power amplifiers which are used in the fire control system. Some temperature settings were not properly done by the parent company. These were tucked inside. As you know, now-a-days, the deck is packaged so densely even to get access to that you have to take out the whole module. So, when this type of settings get disturbed, the rule says that one has to go through the whole qualification process again. There is no change in the design. It is a temperature re-setting which was got done. That has been rectified. Now the tanks would be there by the middle of January.

Commiteee: During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee:

MoD/DRDO: In the Arjun, we got into a little bit of a problem because certain temperature-setting switches were not tuned properly. They had to be returned. Yes, this was a problem of the Defence Research Scientists who have not seen that 60 degree setting was not kept at 60, but at 55 which is a normal standard of that company which supplied those parts follow. But we had in the prototype modified that for the 60. so, this had to be done. Once this got done, now we are ready. So some of these productions hiccup if they do take place in the initial phase, they should not dispirit us because whenever we do new products like that, we may face these kinds of problems.

The MBT Arjun started off with a 110 mm gun but at the point of delivery it is already featuring 120 mm gun the state-of-art. We started off a rifled gun for which there was no missile which could be pushed through that. But we have now identified that missile which can be fired through that. Similarly, we have built in certain electronic package as part of our processing, computing power within the tank which will allow us to network into the future.

MoD/DRDO: I want to tell you the roadmap of MBT Arjun as an hon/ Member had asked about this issue. I want to assure you that after these 15 tanks are tried by the Army, the DRDO will be involved only for 15 more tanks. As soon as the Ordnance Factory produces these 30 tanks, the DGQA will take over the responsibility for giving technical clearance &#8211; which DRDO is doing today &#8211; and the links will be broken. Thereafter, it will be entirely the Ordnance Factory production, and the DGQA will be responsible for its certification. Hopefully, this situation will remain till DRDO does some more research and makes a Mark II of Arjun Tank. If they decide to do that, then, again, the Government will start, but that will be only after producing 124 Tanks and not before that. We will produce 124 Tanks, as the Army has accepted and told us to
produce these Tanks. As of now all the 124 MBT Arjun production tanks is planned with M/s MTU engine integrated with M/s Renk Transmission of Germany as a power pack. The cost of MTU power pack (Engine & Transmission) was Rs. 5.2 crore, as per the last ordered price during mid-nineties. The features of MTU engine are as follows: built on modular concept, 1400 HP with V 90, 10 cylinder, turbocharged and water cooled, made of light weight aluminum alloy with built in safety features, state of art cooling system and Air cleaning system to withstand hot and desert environmental condition. T-90 Tank is fitted with 1000 hp Engine. The cost of T-90 (engine and transmission) is Rs. 2.15 crore as ascertained from Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). It is proposed to take up a project on &#8220;Development of 1500 hp Engine&#8221; in the XI Five Year Plan. Preliminary design work has already commenced.

Commitee: On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied as under:

MoD/DRDO: Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) 50 Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility,* HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.*

Final Observations/Recommendations by the Committee: The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than 32 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi.

Total requirement of Army is about 3500 Tanks. Army has placed an indent the manufacture 124 MBT Arjun and Arjun assembly has just started functioning. The Factory will produce 50 Arjun Tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement of the user. Users should be empowered to certify the products produced by the ordnance factories. The Committee also like to be apprised how they will comply the demand of the user.


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## JK!

So out of the 3500 how many will be Arjuns?


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## Keysersoze

JK! said:


> So out of the 3500 how many will be Arjuns?



Thats quite an important question. if you factor in the t-90 purchases and the T-72 upgrades......


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## Contrarian

Arjun is WAY too expensive to constitute the bulk of the force. They would be used in smaller numbers either as the head of any tank formation or the rear, with T-90's forming the second tier and the T-72's the third. Their armour and firing ability makes them suitable for both, sustaining hits at the front and shooting as well as being protected and firing accurately from the rear of the force.

I read that somewhere, dont remember where.


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## Adux

Best estimates are put at 650-950


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> Arjun is WAY too expensive to constitute the bulk of the force. They would be used in smaller numbers either as the head of any tank formation or the rear, with T-90's forming the second tier and the T-72's the third. Their armour and firing ability makes them suitable for both, sustaining hits at the front and shooting as well as being protected and firing accurately from the rear of the force.
> 
> I read that somewhere, dont remember where.



Well that would work if you were using the Russian Elchon system. However the Arjun would require an entirely different logistic train as it's ammo and spare parts would be different. so it would have have to be a seperate entity rather than combined .with t-series tanks


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Best estimates are put at 650-950



anyone got a break down of the numbers?


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## Contrarian

Keysersoze said:


> Well that would work if you were using the Russian Elchon system. However the Arjun would require an entirely different logistic train as it's ammo and spare parts would be different. so it would have have to be a seperate entity rather than combined .with t-series tanks



Yes, but IA will get the logistics and equipment manufactured required to place arjun at their desired spots. There would be depots, just as they are maintained for other tanks, so that the tanks can be deployed without worries or ammo, spare parts etc.


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## blain2

Keysersoze said:


> anyone got a break down of the numbers?



Of what? Arjun? Last I remember it was 124 units and I am not even sure if all 124 have been delivered. Pardon me but Arjun is dead in its tack. Regardless of the many many reverse progress and forward progress articles, Arjun has not even met all of IA's GSRs as per very many of the same articles. The fact that you have so many different PoVs about the delay in its induction is a barometer of where the program is going. We have been discussing the Arjun on various forums at least since 2000. In the past 7 years, this tank has not moved beyond its current status (which is not even IOC).

Sorry to disagree with the Indian members here and their library of articles, the proof is in the eating of the pudding. I have yet to see the IAC orbat showing any armoured unit of relevance fielding these tanks (I know a couple are but its been the same couple of units ever since 2002 or so).


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## Keysersoze

I was think specifically along the lines of numbers of t-90s and t-72s in service. If the stated claim of 3500 tanks being the requirement, then I am wondering what the numbers would be. If i recall there were 1900 t-90's and 1200 t-72's (I don't have any references on that as I am currently on a train and don't have my resources at hand or inb the country for that matter ) So how can 650-950 be correct?


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## con

blain2 said:


> Of what? Arjun? Last I remember it was 124 units and I am not even sure if all 124 have been delivered. Pardon me but Arjun is dead in its tack. Regardless of the many many reverse progress and forward progress articles, Arjun has not even met all of IA's GSRs as per very many of the same articles. The fact that you have so many different PoVs about the delay in its induction is a barometer of where the program is going. We have been discussing the Arjun on various forums at least since 2000. In the past 7 years, this tank has not moved beyond its current status (which is not even IOC).
> 
> Sorry to disagree with the Indian members here and their library of articles, the proof is in the eating of the pudding. I have yet to see the IAC orbat showing any armoured unit of relevance fielding these tanks (I know a couple are but its been the same couple of units ever since 2002 or so).



I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004. 
Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC? 
Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design? 
Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?

Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?


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## con

Keysersoze said:


> I was think specifically along the lines of numbers of t-90s and t-72s in service. If the stated claim of 3500 tanks being the requirement, then I am wondering what the numbers would be. If i recall there were 1900 t-90's and 1200 t-72's (I don't have any references on that as I am currently on a train and don't have my resources at hand or inb the country for that matter ) So how can 650-950 be correct?



Keys,
Arjun is not meant to replace 1-1 with T-72. T-72 and T-90 is purely t fill in the numbers,while Arjun will be added in phases. 
It will be distraous to completely replace the T-72. Imagine the amount of training that needs to go in. 
Arjun will always be smaller in numbers. some where around 500-700. 
Britian has 700 challengers. Iraq had 3500 T-series. Which won finally?


----------



## Keysersoze

con said:


> I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004.
> Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC?
> Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design?
> Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
> What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?
> 
> Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
> How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?



A quick point. the change over would not as big a change (or should not be) as the IA operated western mbts within the recent past. So the operational doctrine .would not a be a huge drama. SO 3 years is a bit too long for that to be valid. In that time frame there would at least be a few operational units by now.


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## con

Keysersoze said:


> A quick point. the change over would not as big a change (or should not be) as the IA operated western mbts within the recent past. So the operational doctrine .would not a be a huge drama. SO 3 years is a bit too long for that to be valid. In that time frame there would at least be a few operational units by now.



Keys,
IA did use British tanks.However the majority of the tankers are now T-series "graduates".
and most of the British tank graduates are lesser in numbers. Arjun has been a turf war between this two camps. Tanker who have been with British tanks love Arjun,while T-series are not used to it and get a cultural shock.

A simple example. A tankers driving T-series cannot so easily handle a much bigger Arjun.
There have been reports about they screwing up tracks etc. DRDO has always been complaining that IA use Arjun like T-series.

The doctrine as well is also a big issue. Take the example of range. A reporter named Ajai Shukla ,an ex-IA tanker complained that the Arjun longer range guns is no use because IA ha always fought battle at under 900 mts. 
What is the issue here? The problem in the range of T-72. He says under 900 because the tech used to limit the range and they are trained to max out the T-72,which to be effective should be close to the target.
Now if you Arjun which can crack at 2km+ what do you do? Dont you need to train to use this range effectively?

Keys,if you observe any complains about IA you wil see that it is all through T-series lens.
You can see Arjun at 1km,but not T-series..hence T-72 better etc..etc..
That is the problem...


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## BATMAN

blain2 said:


> Of what? Arjun? Last I remember it was 124 units and I am not even sure if all 124 have been delivered.


IA was forced to place order of 124 Arjun, in 2001 but they are not produced till todate. Before the may war games the known numbers were 5 prototypes but some how by news papers this surprise poped up that the number of participated Arjun were 14.
After the trials DRDO informed the newsmen they will only produce more after the green signal from Army.


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## blain2

con said:


> I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004.
> Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC?
> Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design?
> Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
> What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?
> 
> Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
> How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?



No my point about IOC is that there has been no mention of it aside from the fact that 124 initial models (not even the ones with chages) were pushed off to the IA.

To train crews on new types usually in the Indo-Pak Armies is done on the basis of train the trainer. This allows for the initial cadres to get into units and train other crews. Not sure why it would take 3 years for a tank crew to convert to Arjun from a Russian T series (usually a Tank conversion course is ver much less than a year but you have ongoing training in the units).

As far as your point about how long it takes to assemble a tank when a country already has T series assembly line, then my answer is "ideally shorter than it took Pakistan to assemble AK series from scratch".

AK series development started in 1988 or so with the first prototype delivered in 1991. Currently 4 Cavalry units (part of the Pakistani Strike Corps) are equipped with AK.

PA decided against the Abrams because it failed some of the tests that it was put through and eventually the cost and susceptibility to US sanctions led to ruling out of Abrams for PA.


----------



## Mohammad Ali Akanda

Keysersoze said:


> *India's Arjun MBT remains on the starting block
> An Indian parliamentary committee has urged the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to seek foreign assistance to overcome continuing problems with the Arjun main...
> 23-Mar-2007
> 
> http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml


Which Indian Tank is the best?


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## Mohammad Ali Akanda

Adux said:


> Its a stupid piece of Engneering, Anyways they should be buying a western tank on ToT. Learn it, and then go for it again. Drop the Project now.


It is better to drop this project of Arjun.


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## con

blain2 said:


> No my point about IOC is that there has been no mention of it aside from the fact that 124 initial models (not even the ones with chages) were pushed off to the IA.
> 
> To train crews on new types usually in the Indo-Pak Armies is done on the basis of train the trainer. This allows for the initial cadres to get into units and train other crews. Not sure why it would take 3 years for a tank crew to convert to Arjun from a Russian T series (usually a Tank conversion course is ver much less than a year but you have ongoing training in the units).
> 
> As far as your point about how long it takes to assemble a tank when a country already has T series assembly line, then my answer is "ideally shorter than it took Pakistan to assemble AK series from scratch".
> 
> AK series development started in 1988 or so with the first prototype delivered in 1991. Currently 4 Cavalry units (part of the Pakistani Strike Corps) are equipped with AK.
> 
> PA decided against the Abrams because it failed some of the tests that it was put through and eventually the cost and susceptibility to US sanctions led to ruling out of Abrams for PA.



blain2,
Let me put across to you the saga about Arjun.
The development of current Arjun,whose requirements was put across in 1987-1988(after PA started evaluating M1A1) and it was completed in 2004. In 2004 a test completed, production prototype was finalised.
Now DRDO doesnot produce tanks.They develop it. The production is carried out by another unit which was already had it's hands full on T-72 upgrade and T-90 infra set for assembling further T-90 units. 

The production units don't care about what work they until their productions lines are full i.e T-72 and T-90. which means they did not bother about setting up line for Arjun.
Second point, all they have been doing is assembling T series..screw driver tech.
Imagine the setup required if you need to build something from scratch. They took their own time to setup the lines. Meanwhile DRDO's Arjun developer CVRDE build couple of the initial examples themselves which could be given to the IA for training purpose.

Now the issue was if you dont have enough numbers what will you train on? Until the production are up to the task there is no tanks to train on. Somehow they managed to setup the production and initial around 8 or something was delivered. Now the IA was furious because the production unit screwed up the production of Arjun tanks. They send them back to the production units. This is what the Indian media report about "Arjun not yet finished etc etc... " without knowing the difference b/w development prototype and production examples.

Now to the aspect of training. Arjun gives abilities which are not present in any of IA's tank fleet. Long range guns,TI, Heavy armour, BMS, various electronics, missile firing ability,bigger tank, hydro pnuematic suspension. Training will not involve just learning to shoot. They have learn to maintain these machines. Would it possible to train tankers with so much details within less than a year?
IA's 43 regiment(Indian member correct me if I am wrong) is equipped with Arjun. At the last count, there seem to around 40+ Arjun in IA with end of 2008 set for completion of 124. Recent reports have indicated a follow on order on after 124. The production unit are so pathetic that DRDO would not be offically handing over Arjun to production units until they have produced 50 examples without issues.

Now why PA did not go for M1A1. Personally I would it has nothing to do failed test. we all know what M1A1 is capable of and PA test was not far from first gulf war.
PA did not induct them because of the infra and training issue. Remember tanker within PA/IA are not educated lot. Teaching them to maintain things like hydro-pnuematic susp is not easy. A reason why PA still sticks with T-series evolution like AK. T-series always been a tankers tank. It works and can be maintained very easily.

Do you know that IA was talking to the germans for inducting Leo's as PA was testing M1A1. since PA lost interest in M1A1 and russian provided T-72 at rock bottom price,IA choose T-72. else we could have Leo's and M1A1 in the subcontinent. So much for the "light tanks" constraint for the subcontinent.


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## joey

zraver, now you might help us and tell if if Arjun can do hunter killer or not..

The only thing CMS lacks is a laser range finder? anythign else? seems to be a stripped down version of IGMS to keep costs low.


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## Averroes

*Indegenious Development?*

While the project had started as an in-house project, there has been a significant level of foreign involvement in the past few years in this project. Israeli contracters working with DRDO on the Tank has already been well documented in the public media, but sources confirm participation of American and South Korean entities in the recent stages.

In fact American firms are said to have been consulted for setting up large scale production facilities for the Tank.

Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence


----------



## joey

Averroes said:


> *Indegenious Development?*
> 
> While the project had started as an in-house project, there has been a significant level of foreign involvement in the past few years in this project. Israeli contracters working with DRDO on the Tank has already been well documented in the public media, but sources confirm participation of American and South Korean entities in the recent stages.
> 
> In fact American firms are said to have been consulted for setting up large scale production facilities for the Tank.
> 
> Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence



Production Facility is independent on a Tanks developement, If you have actually seen Tanks production facility specially abrams, problem is to mass produce a tank you need highly mechanised production facility one of the problems i have told here several thousand times is due to very fine tolerance of Arjun it was getting much harder slower and erroneous to build by the method OFB builds T series tanks the reason to mechanize/robotize production line in which in handling several things we might as well see some american instruments.

The rest of the report is completely junk, Actually there was a keen possibility of tatas manufacturing the korean tank but thats pure rumour, Israeli participation yes electro-optical instruments, lahat et al, SAGEM's role is there but it has been replaced by BEL's role home made.


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## Titanium

joey said:


> due to *very fine tolerance of Arjun *it was getting much harder slower and erroneous to build by the method OFB builds T series tanks the reason to mechanize/robotize production line in which in handling several things we might as well see some american instruments.



Seems like baby doll, which need to be kept in Airconditioned environment, certaninly not a war equipment.  Joey you are very funny man


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## con

There you go.
A report praising Arjun(as required to prove it is working)!



> Ajai Shukla
> Sunday, September 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
> For three decades, India's Arjun tank project has struggled and has been scoffed at by experts and dismissed by the army.
> 
> The army, in fact, refused to accept the tank into service until comparative trials were held pitting the Arjun against the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.
> 
> But now, *mysteriously the army has asked the Ministry of Defence to call off the comparative trials*.
> 
> The T-72 has proved itself over years, says the army, and the T-90 is even better - only the Arjun needs to prove itself.
> 
> Meanwhile, the army is going ahead with buying 347 more T-90s paying a billion dollars to Russia. The army chief will be visiting Russia next week and the defence minister will follow next month.
> 
> The MoD itself had insisted on comparative trials before this turnaround. *Now it says that you can't compare a 46-tonne T-90 with a 60-tonne Arjun.*
> 
> But the men who built the tank in the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment in Chennai believe that's just an excuse to avoid comparative trials which would prove that Arjun is the best tank.
> 
> *''People have been asking that question, how can you compare a 40 tonne class tank with a 60 tonne class tank, and I think the golden question is that irrespective of the weight and other features, if one is given a choice as to which tank he'd like to ride to battle, which tank would you choose?'' said Major General HM Singh, Additional DG, CVRDE.*
> 
> This competitiveness is a sign of the Arjun's new confidence. After three decades of public criticism, the Arjun seems to have ironed out its defects.
> 
> *''Over a period of five years, we have evaluated this tank in the deserts of Rajasthan. We have evaluated over 70,000 km of cumulative run with 15 tanks we have fired over 10,000 rounds,'' *said R Jayakumar, Associate Director, CVRDE.
> 
> But success came only in 2005 after the Arjun hardened its electronics to work in the desert heat and fixed chronic suspension leakages.
> 
> The army then demanded that the tank be able to drive for 20 minutes under six feet of water, and that's been done too.
> 
> Now as the Arjun races over these rumble strips, it has logged up notable successes.
> 
> In the year 2000, the Indian Kanchan Armour proved itself in trials - a T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun even from point blank range.
> 
> Last June firing trials noted that the ''accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt.''
> 
> *While the T-90 plans to install an air conditioner to keep its electronics working, the Arjun's electronics now work at up to 60 degrees.*
> 
> The MoD admitted this year to the Parliament's Committee on Defence that the ''Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks.''
> 
> And that that ''MBT Arjun is specifically configured for Indian Army requirements, and the T-90 does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun.''
> 
> But the Arjun's makers don't just want acceptance and a token order of 124 tanks.
> 
> They want the Arjun to be the backbone of India's 3500 tank fleet, and the comparative trials, they say, will prove the Arjun deserves that.
> 
> The MoD is backpedaling. It says the army could accept another 124 tanks of the improved Arjun and perhaps many more, if the army likes the tank.
> 
> ''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production.
> 
> The Army's opposition to the Arjun tank is partly the fault of the Arjun team. It took three decades to develop the tank and the generals lost faith in the project.
> 
> And today, with the Arjun ready to prove its worth the army seems unwilling to listen.


http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070025577&ch=9/9/2007 10:45:00 PM

Just proved that the so called trials was just hogwash.


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## Bull

Arjun Tank is now going to under go accelerated usage cum reliability trial (AUCRT) over 5 months and 5000 kms from november 2007

AUCRT is normally an internal test procedure for army after induction of a armored vehicle. It is normally done for the engineering and logistical performance for Army&#8217;s self evaluation. But knowing the history of Arjun Tank development and Army&#8217;s disposition, this would well mean another assessment exercise. AUCRT trials were carried out on T-90S tanks last summer and its reported that problems have been observed.

Surprisingly Indian Army has canceled the so called &#8220;comparative trials&#8221; which was never scheduled. In 2005 when last comparative trials were held, Arjun Tank did not fire at all. The reason was the French Sagem gun sights, which was a higher version of the earlier model, was installed due to due to embargo on the earlier supplier. The sights were checked and installed into the Arjun electronics. However in the desert heat of Rajasthan, the sensitive laser range finder did not perform. Target range is an important parameter, required for accurate firing and hence firing could not be done. 

Subsequently, the Sagem officials and DRDO worked on the entire electronics and presented it for trials in 2006. The guns performed, however the Army came up with another observation of the higher fuel consumption in Arjun Tank compared to T-72. The Fuel consumption issue was proven wrong during the later trials meant for the purpose. Indian Army refused to bring in a T-72 for comparative fuel consumption trials. 

Subsequently Indian Army came up with another observation that water was leaking into Arjun Tank. As per the standard norm, 1 tank in 10 production tank is to be tested for medium fording. However the loophole is that there are no standards mentioned in GSQR for Medium Fording. The problem identified was that Heavy vehicles Factory and Indian Army use different standards for testing T-72 tanks. However, DRDO ran Arjun Tanks 20 minutes in water to demonstrate medium fording.

Now since the CVRDE is calling the Indian Army for the challenge, Indian Army is out to go in for AUCRT. Unfortunately there is no third party watchdog for AUCRT.

It&#8217;s now a open fact that the drivers and officers of the Indian Army armoured corps but its induction is held at bay for some reason or the other. 

The history is repeating itself. The Vijayanta Tanks came late hence T-72&#8217;s were inducted. Now the T-90S have filled in 10 + regiments which Indian Army is converting from T-72&#8217;s. Next armoured regiment conversion is scheduled beyond 2015.

India Defence Consultants


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## Titanium

STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE

(FOURTEENTH LOK SABHA)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DEMANDS FOR GRANTS
(2007-2008)
SIXTEENTH REPORT​
*New issues?*
3.42 During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :-

*&#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do
it ?&#8221;*

RECOMMENDATION SL. NO. 15
3.45 The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the d*evelopment of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974.* Even after the lapse of* more than 34 years*, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjun&#8217;s requirement in a time bound manner.


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## Bull

Titanium said:


> STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE
> 
> (FOURTEENTH LOK SABHA)
> MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
> DEMANDS FOR GRANTS
> (2007-2008)
> SIXTEENTH REPORT​
> *New issues?*
> 3.42 During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :-
> 
> * I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do
> it ?*
> 
> RECOMMENDATION SL. NO. 15
> 3.45 The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the d*evelopment of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974.* Even after the lapse of* more than 34 years*, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjuns requirement in a time bound manner.



Link please!


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## zraver

watched the first of the videos, it didn't really show much but here is what I was able to see.

1- digital touch screen computers for the driver. Big plus for the individual tank in combat. But full color throught the tank including the fire control system would allow the integration of a superior battlefield management system.

2- Hull storage of extra rounds. the 120mm rifled uses the bagged charge system so I am assuming the combustibles are kept in the turret bustle. while the penetrators, HEAT, and HESH rounds are kept in both the turret and hull (in armored boxes) but I could be wrong.


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## Bull

zraver said:


> watched the first of the videos, it didn't really show much but here is what I was able to see.
> 
> 1- digital touch screen computers for the driver. Big plus for the individual tank in combat. But full color throught the tank including the fire control system would allow the integration of a superior battlefield management system.
> 
> 2- Hull storage of extra rounds. the 120mm rifled uses the bagged charge system so I am assuming the combustibles are kept in the turret bustle. while the penetrators, HEAT, and HESH rounds are kept in both the turret and hull (in armored boxes) but I could be wrong.



Whats your view on Arjun after the latest round of testing. Will it nd up with IA?


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## zraver

I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.


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## KENT

zraver said:


> I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.



Pls tell me on what grounds you are claiming MBT Arjun inferiority with all otherMBT you have mentioned above. On what sorts of technical specification you have arrive at this conclusion. It is wide known fact that MBT Arjun has suffered delay and cost overrrun, but on what basis all this shortfall makes MBT Arjun obsolete. Since its inception, Indian have come across all sorts of technical glitches, but all they have been ractified on rountine basis. Just because T-90,T-72,T-80ud and MBT-2000 are operationalized, is that mean they are superior to MBT Arjun in all its aspects?. There are several articales recently published about MBT Arjuns performance parameteres, it has screaming that MBT Arjun has succeded in meeting all its performance parameters as specify by IA. Now IA is also quite relucant to place their top of front line tank against MBT Arjun. IA relucantance does't imply MBT Arjun is obsoleate. IA seems to have quite irritated with ever increasing technical glitches that came across during previous user trial. DRDO has recently shown kind of confidence like never before in respect of Arjun capability. 

As far as Russian behaviour is concerned in respect MBT Arjun, it is not uncommon. Since on previous occassion as well during HF-24 Marut project they declined to provide powerful engine to increase it engine thrust, becuase russian know very well that with the HF-24 Marut is direct competitor to MIG-21.


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## Bull

KENT said:


> Pls tell me on what grounds you are claiming MBT Arjun inferiority with all otherMBT you have mentioned above. On what sorts of technical specification you have arrive at this conclusion.



Before you open your big mouth read what he wrote exactly and read his other posts to understand his credentials.


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## Bull

zraver said:


> I thik India needs this tank even though it is technologically obsolete as far as electronics go, the T-90 and T-72 Ajeya are too closely matched by the Al Khalid and T-80UD. But will the Russian money win out? I am convinced base don some of the idiotic nonsensical claims and buercratic manuvering that the Russians are tryign to kill the project.



Electronics. Well wouldnt it be easier to change the electronics part than making structural changes. Most of the negative remarks have come for its weight, size/dimension/suspension. Like whatw e do for planes cant we/India induct it and wait for the mark2 to be developed and then return the mark 1 to be upgraded?


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## Titanium

Bull, rather than getting excited, accept the fact that the quality issues are what preventing the Arjun in IA. The trails were conducted over a period of no less than 15 years.

The problem with DRDO is the *lack of visionary people like of Sarabhai, Homi Bhaba, Abdul kalam, who laid solid foundation for Space, atomic power and Missile Systems*. 

Unfortunately the people who lead(if you call that) LCA and Arjun are midgets, in front of the towering personalities mentioned above. Moreover they lack the conviction and Political backing the trioka had.

So stop blaming army and IAF for the lack of enthusiasm. No one(including me) cast aspiration on the capability on Indian scientific potential. IT is just that wrong people are heading those projects.


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## Bull

Titanium said:


> Bull, rather than getting excited, accept the fact that the quality issues are what preventing the Arjun in IA. The trails were conducted over a period of no less than 15 years.
> 
> The problem with DRDO is the *lack of visionary people like of Sarabhai, Homi Bhaba, Abdul kalam, who laid solid foundation for Space, atomic power and Missile Systems*.
> 
> Unfortunately the people who lead(if you call that) LCA and Arjun are midgets, in front of the towering personalities mentioned above. Moreover they lack the conviction and Political backing the trioka had.
> 
> So stop blaming army and IAF for the lack of enthusiasm. No one(including me) cast aspiration on the capability on Indian scientific potential. IT is just that wrong people are heading those projects.



Where did i get excited? Where did i blame the army and IAF?


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## Bull

As per the 14th parliamentary report of 2006 - 2007, Arjun Tank Mark - II production will be taken up after the successful completion of the first order of 124 Arjun tanks order.

The ministry of defence informed the parliamentary committee that  I want to tell you the roadmap of MBT Arjun as an hon/ Member had asked about this issue. I want to assure you that after these 15 tanks are tried by the Army, the DRDO will be involved only for 15 more tanks. As soon as the Ordnance Factory produces these 30 tanks, the DGQA will take over the responsibility for giving technical clearance  which DRDO is doing today  and the links will be broken. Thereafter, it will be entirely the Ordnance Factory production, and the DGQA will be responsible for its certification. Hopefully, this situation will remain till DRDO does some more research and makes a Mark II of Arjun Tank. If they decide to do that, then, again, the Government will start, but that will be only after producing 124 Tanks and not before that. We will produce 124 Tanks, as the Army has accepted and told us to produce these Tanks.

The representative of the Ministry expressed  Whether it is MBT Arjun, whether it is going to be Akash missile or whether is LCA, for everyone of these projects, I am prepared to take the blame organizationally for the delay due to certain inability to assess in entirety all the technological complexities involved. But I also wish to assure this Committee that at the point of introduction it has a useful life appropriate to the product of this kind and the Services have appreciated this.

The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied  MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank. A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised. MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs

The Ministry was asked to provide the latest status and import content in MBT Arjun. The Ministry supplied the information  Main Battle Tank Arjun is currently under production at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi under the aegis of Ordnance Factory Board,Users have placed an indent for 124 tanks, out of which the production for the year 2005-06 is expected to be 15 Nos. The entire quantity of 124 Nos. is planned to be produced by March 2008. Power pack, Gunners Main Sight and Track are imported items, which work out to 58% of the cost per tank. The import content can be progressively reduced with increased production orders.

The Ministry was again asked when the import content of the tank is 58%, how increased indigenous production can reduce import contents. The Ministry was also asked to give price comparison of Arjun Tank with T-90 Tank. The ministry replied Indigenous Gunners Main Sight (IGMS) is an integrated gyrostabilized sight consisting of thermal imager, laser range finder, and day sight with inbuilt fire control computer for ballistic computation. This system enables the crew of the tank to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions by day and night with enhanced hit probability. Suitable indigenous power Packs are not available for application in MBT. Indigenous production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for MBT Arjun considering the economy of scale. A project for development of indigenous power pack is planned in XI Five Year Plan. There are few vendors in the world who can manufacture gunners main sight. DRDO is developing indigenous gunners main sight. It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks. Indigenous track is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos. Licensed production of the above items may be feasible with enhanced order quality for Arjun tanks and may result in reduction in import contents. T-90 is a forty-ton class tank. It cannot be compared with MBT Arjun in terms of lethality power and protection. The present cost of MBT Arjun is 16.80 crore. The production cost of T-90 is being ascertained from Ordnance Factory Board.

On the certification of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee .. Arjun is certified by DGQA. The responsibility of Arjun certification is not with DGQA and still it is with DRDO themselves.

These 124 tanks which have been ordered for production by the Army, are produced in the Ordnance Factory. We have given clearance for the Ordnance Factory to do internal QC. This is only quality control. Then, the overall AHSP, that is, Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars continues to be with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production. Now, DGQA is participating throughout in the inspection. They are not AHSP. They will become AHSP only after DRDO gives the documents to them. Then, the become the ultimate authority for the sealed particulars. Today, sealed particulars are held by DRDO. DGQA is fully involved in inspection.

On the production of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee After we took over the production from the DRDO first year we decided to deliver five tanks. These tanks were delivered last year. This year we are delivering 15 tanks more. Now 14 tanks which we had promised are ready. But while the tanks were handed over to the Army, they went for an extensive user trial. Now in the user trial some minor defects were noticed and these defects are being rectified one-by-one. Now the corrective actions which are required are expected to be completed by January this (2007) year.After this corrective action, further trials will take place. Now these are very small defects.

On the status of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee .The MBT Arjun started off with a 110 mm gun but at the point of delivery it is already featuring 120 mm gun the state of-art. We started off a rifled gun for which there was no missile which could be pushed through that. But we have now identified that missile which can be fired through that. Similarly, we have built in certain electronic package as part of our processing, computing power within the tank which will allow us to network into the future.

On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility, HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.


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## Titanium

Let the first 124 to be built with Quality in mind, acceptable to army, then you can dream about Mk II or Mr 2


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## Titanium

*New Adventures of DRDO:*

Indian defence research and development establishments are looking for joint venture partners, domestic and foreign, to co-develop and co-produce engines for the* indigenously *designed and built Arjun main battle tank, now entering serial production at a state-owned ordnance factory.

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) floated a domestic and global expression of interest on October 31 for the co-development of the 1,500-horsepower Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine. The CVRDE is a tank development laboratory operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The new engine is expected to replace the current German-built MTU engine. Currently, an order for 124 Arjun tanks has been given to the Heavy Vehicles Ordnance Factory at Avadi in Chennai, with the expectation of additional orders being placed over the next two years.

_The newly developed engine is also expected to power the Russian T-90S tanks to be licence built in India as well as an Arjun derivative, the Tank X._

_The newly floated contract, according to DRDO officials, would look at developing an engine that will be fuel efficient, with a state-of-the-art fuel injection system, electronic controls, turbo charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurized multistage air cleaning system._


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> *New Adventures of DRDO:*
> 
> Indian defence research and development establishments are looking for joint venture partners, domestic and foreign, to co-develop and co-produce engines for the* indigenously *designed and built Arjun main battle tank, now entering serial production at a state-owned ordnance factory.
> 
> The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) floated a domestic and global expression of interest on October 31 for the co-development of the 1,500-horsepower Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine. The CVRDE is a tank development laboratory operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The new engine is expected to replace the current German-built MTU engine. Currently, an order for 124 Arjun tanks has been given to the Heavy Vehicles Ordnance Factory at Avadi in Chennai, with the expectation of additional orders being placed over the next two years.
> 
> _The newly developed engine is also expected to power the Russian T-90S tanks to be licence built in India as well as an Arjun derivative, the Tank X._
> 
> _The newly floated contract, according to DRDO officials, would look at developing an engine that will be fuel efficient, with a state-of-the-art fuel injection system, electronic controls, turbo charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurized multistage air cleaning system._



Old news...


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## Titanium

Wonder what happened to the previus engine story...make it adventure?


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## Titanium

Stealth Assassin said:


> Old news...



A month old, year or a couple of decade in planning drdo news! Drdo plans are...


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## Titanium

*Some more adventures of Arjun and DRDO:*

Here's what the MoD had to say in March to the House Panel on Defence about manufacturing tank powerpacks in India: "Suitable indigenous power Packs are not available for application in MBT. *Indigenous *production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for MBT Arjun considering the economy of scale. A project for developmentof indigenous power pack is *planned* in XI Five Year Plan."

Not much headway has been made on an* indigenous GMS *-- an *indigenous laser range finder, day sight, thermal imager and fire control computer won't be part of the Arjun until beyond *the hopeful second batch order. Here's what the MoD had to say about it: "There are few vendors in the world who can manufacture gunners main sight. DRDO is developing indigenous gunners main sight. *It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks."* ..The perpetual dream goes on beyond 30 years into infinity.

*Now the funny stuff:*
And finally, the tracks -- when I was at Avadi, I got the picture about why we're still importing tracks: *the indigenously made rubber-coated metal pins that hold the indigenous track links together couldn't withstand the friction. The rubber would fray quickly allowing the pin's metal to come into contact with the track's metal, thereby quickly distorting it and resulting in a mobility breakdown.* Since DRDO is _still developing _resistant rubber for those pins, we're importing the entire track assembly. *Shouldn't take long though -- the CVRDE has apparently asked for this technology as well from some specialist agencies abroad.* And this is what the MoD said in March: "Indigenoustrack is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos."


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## r4rehan

i think india needs pakistan's AL-KHALID engineers to make ARJUN Pakistaniz are so talented and hard workers they can make their own MBT , SUB, and JF 17 thunder, Shaheen Etc !!! now it is possible we are friendz right na


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## amunhotep

Titanium said:


> _The newly developed engine is also expected to power the Russian T-90S tanks to be licence built in India as well as an Arjun derivative, the Tank X._




i just don't get it

how can the same engine power two tanks in completely *different weight categories*

the arjun derivative is much heavier than the T-90S

it simply dosen't make much sense to me honestly


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## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> *Some more adventures of Arjun and DRDO:*
> 
> Here's what the MoD had to say in March to the House Panel on Defence about manufacturing tank powerpacks in India: "Suitable indigenous power Packs are not available for application in MBT. *Indigenous *production of power pack through license production is feasible with enhanced production order for MBT Arjun considering the economy of scale. A project for developmentof indigenous power pack is *planned* in XI Five Year Plan."
> 
> Not much headway has been made on an* indigenous GMS *-- an *indigenous laser range finder, day sight, thermal imager and fire control computer won't be part of the Arjun until beyond *the hopeful second batch order. Here's what the MoD had to say about it: "There are few vendors in the world who can manufacture gunners main sight. DRDO is developing indigenous gunners main sight. *It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks."* ..The perpetual dream goes on beyond 30 years into infinity.
> 
> *Now the funny stuff:*
> And finally, the tracks -- when I was at Avadi, I got the picture about why we're still importing tracks: *the indigenously made rubber-coated metal pins that hold the indigenous track links together couldn't withstand the friction. The rubber would fray quickly allowing the pin's metal to come into contact with the track's metal, thereby quickly distorting it and resulting in a mobility breakdown.* Since DRDO is _still developing _resistant rubber for those pins, we're importing the entire track assembly. *Shouldn't take long though -- the CVRDE has apparently asked for this technology as well from some specialist agencies abroad.* And this is what the MoD said in March: "Indigenoustrack is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos."



What are you jumping about? Name one developing country that has made a battle tank from scratch without outside help.


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## amunhotep

some pics of tank-x


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## con

Titanium said:


> *Now the funny stuff:
> *


*
What is funny about it?*


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## Titanium

con said:


> What is funny about it?



A nation set out to develop tank "indigenously" (is it copyrighted?) is stuck at rubber coated pins

Is it not funny....



> the i*ndigenously *made rubber-coated metal pins that hold the* indigenous* track links together couldn't withstand the friction. The rubber would fray quickly allowing the pin's metal to come into contact with the track's metal, thereby quickly distorting it and resulting in a mobility breakdown. Since DRDO is still developing resistant rubber for those pins, we're importing the entire track assembly.



Don't they fell in love with indigenous word, hardly anyone uses as frequently as these ........


----------



## Titanium

amunhotep said:


> i just don't get it
> 
> how can the same engine power two tanks in completely *different weight categories*
> 
> the arjun derivative is much heavier than the T-90S
> 
> it simply dosen't make much sense to me honestly



You get it, these suckers(DRDO) will come with propsal, name a good catchy name, show how much we can save by Indigenous design and development, get approval from politician. After a decade or two of dithering, they start whining how difficult it is to manufacture.......

Now you maybe wondering how come a nation which had so much engoineering talent as seen in vijayanagar period to mughal so much regressed. Well the DRDO as most of the organisation are infested with Brahmin/Bania, those who have not worked productively in their entire history and known only for swindling.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Now you maybe wondering how come a nation which had so much engoineering talent as seen in vijayanagar period to mughal so much regressed.



So what is you idea of super duper engineering? Renaming a rejected Chinese tank and calling it indigenous? Or declaring a missile can carry all types of guidance found in the world with just one test?



> Well the DRDO as most of the organisation are infested with Brahmin/Bania, those who have not worked productively in their entire history and known only for swindling.


Still better than people who sell national nuclear assets to make cash for themselves.


----------



## Flintlock

Titanium said:


> Now you maybe wondering how come a nation which had so much engoineering talent as seen in vijayanagar period to mughal so much regressed. Well the DRDO as most of the organisation are infested with Brahmin/Bania, those who have not worked productively in their entire history and known only for swindling.



 Lovely!! Keep up the good research work on Brahmins/Banias!!


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> So what is you idea of super duper engineering? Renaming a rejected Chinese tank and calling it indigenous? Or declaring a missile can carry all types of guidance found in the world with just one test?




So the point is.... you are no better, do I have to say anything then? Hope the above statements are "Indigenous" (I falling in love with the word)not copy pasted


----------



## Keysersoze

Guys I suggest all sides take a break as this is not productive.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

con said:


> What is funny about it?



Real funny to find it funny!

What is the big deal about the tracks I really don't understand, but because I do want to understand, I hope someone will clarify.

There are many glitches when an equipment is being developed. Therefore, I fail to understand what is so funny since it has not been explained.

For instance, for artillery pieces, the autofrettage, technically and if viewed superficially, is a simple process. But if it not done correctly, the equipment is as good as a slingshot and much more dangerous to the user!


----------



## Titanium

www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing

*The Indian Army has sought a new generation main battle tank (MBT) even as it reluctantly prepares to receive the homegrown Arjun tank that has been over three decades in the making.*

*'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.*

'I have no doubt that the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) will be able to develop indigenous capabilities for coming up with a better answer and more versatile armoured fighting vehicle (than Arjun) in the future,' he added while speaking at the inaugural session of an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles, the first to be held here.

Kapoor also called for synergy between scientists, users and producers to ensure the delivery of a cutting-edge-technology tank.

'The scientists cannot work in isolation. The users (the army) should be with them. So also should the producers, be they the public sector undertakings or private players. Only then will we see an indigenous armoured fighting vehicle of international quality,' the army chief maintained.

*Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.*

These tanks, in fact, had been handed over for user trials last year and were returned to the manufacturer -- the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment -- with a list of defects that have now apparently been ironed out.

*These include a deficient *

fire control system, 
inaccuracy of its guns,
 low speeds in tactical areas -- principally deserts -- 
and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.


The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.

Genral Kapoor is a what....now? bafoon, idiot...lifafa for import ....keep it coming Indigenous Apologists.


----------



## zeus

know one develops a Mark-II if the Mark-I is a failure this reports confirms that Army is happy with tank ,and development of Mark-II as been heared some years ago ,and development of new Tank engine is also for Mark-I and Mark-II Arjuns ,some reports say that new breakthrough in composite Armour has been developed


----------



## su-47

The problem with the arjun is simple. Its nmot russian. The IA just doesnt want to accept a indegenous tank, coz of their stereotyping that indegenous stuff sucks. The arjun was below par when it first came out, but after many modifications, it has transformed into a potent MBT. Some israeli scientists working on it rate it better than the T-90.

The problem is that arjun is 50 tonnes and army says it will b too heavy fo thar desert. But the pressure exerted by the tanks' tracks on the soil is actually lesser than that of the T-90. I dunno why the army doesnt consider that.

Anyway, once the 126 arjuns ordered comes out, we'll how good it really is.


----------



## EagleEyes

> But the pressure exerted by the tanks' tracks on the soil is actually lesser than that of the T-90.



Please prove it.


----------



## su-47

WebMaster said:


> Please prove it.



this was, as i said, quoted by an israeli scientist on the arjun's tracks. i read it on indiandefenceforum. the article had a link. i have to go dig thru the files there to find it. i'll post it when i get time.


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

Not Sure about Israeli comment, and I am not a very technical guy to comment on the Specifications..

but check this article on Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service dated May 2007

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs

*Check the Ground Pressure*

Mobility performance

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Sam Dhanraj

Another report on IPCS.org Published in June 2006

http://www.ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf .. measures

*T90's Ground Pressure as 12.5 PSI *
and 
*Arjun's Ground Pressure as 11.9 PSI*

Is this what you were referring to SU-47 ?


----------



## Titanium

This is more due to the Mating the imported track of tank in 65 ton class to to 58 ton tank. You got the idea right, a track designed to withstand 65-70 ton when mated to 58 ton, the ground pressure will be less ....like kalam says "fantastic". 

Does anything matter how good the DRDO fanboys say it is, Arjun is dead, at least for the Army. Gen Kapoor should know better than Fan boy fantasies dished here. 



> *'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday*
> 
> Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.


----------



## con

Titanium said:


> Does anything matter how good the DRDO fanboys say it is, Arjun is dead, at least for the Army. Gen Kapoor should know better than Fan boy fantasies dished here.



Where does he say Arjun is not needed?I would be very interested to know. Please dont show me "opinions" of these reporters who dish out the same issue of engine heating etc etc every year despite it been resolved long back.Just shows how much they bother to verify the other side of the story and just copy past years old news.

Why would India want to develop a tank engine if Arjun is a failure? What is it going to do with it? Stick it into T-90? 
With the same logic AK must be dead as well,as almost every Pakistani posters on defence forums are fully convinced there is a AK2 coming.

If IA chief says it is a "medium tech" tank,then that is what they asked for. Arjun is built on IA spec,which basically means they gave out "medium tech" requirements. 
Despite that there is nothing wrong with what is said.Compared to international tanks like M1A1s and Leo,Arjun is medium tech.He just stated the fact. What is the big deal about it.

There have been numerous chaps who have saying Arjun is never gonna see the light.Chaps like Shiv Aroor,whose blog you frequently visit to gain "enlightenment" had to eat his words,when he was found wanting after visiting Arjun's assembly lines. Ranting hardly changes the reality.


----------



## JK!

So what is the current satus of the Arjun MBT?

Have any of the 124 ordered arrived or been inducted?


----------



## Titanium

con said:


> Where does he say Arjun is not needed?I would be very interested to know. *Please dont show me "opinions" of these reporters* who dish out the same issue of engine heating etc etc every year despite it been resolved long back.Just shows how much they bother to verify the other side of the story and just copy past years old news.



This is not the opinion of your dear Reporters, but the army chief, read it again:
'*What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' *Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.

These tanks, in fact, had been handed over for user trials last year and were returned to the manufacturer -- the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment -- with a list of defects that have now apparently been ironed out.

These include a deficient

1. fire control system,
2. inaccuracy of its guns,
3. low speeds in tactical areas -- principally deserts --
4. and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.




> If IA chief says it is a "medium tech" tank,then that is what they asked for. Arjun is built on IA spec,which basically means they gave out "medium tech" requirements.
> Despite that there is nothing wrong with what is said.Compared to international tanks like M1A1s and Leo,Arjun is medium tech.He just stated the fact. What is the big deal about it.



Let me see, if I got it right...Army provided medium tech specification and new expect ABRAM and LEO performance and quality...is that right?

Man then the Army officer including its chief should be.....


----------



## ejaz007

Found an article to some extent relating to Arjun. I think India is going to induct some Arjuns then quietly replace them. I hope India's latest tank endeavor doesnt end up like Arjun. It could be Arjun Part 2.

DefenseNews.com - India Tackles Second Tank Design Project - 11/26/07 17:19


----------



## con

ejaz007 said:


> Found an article to some extent relating to Arjun. I think India is going to induct some Arjuns then quietly replace them. I hope India's latest tank endeavor doesnt end up like Arjun. It could be Arjun Part 2.
> 
> DefenseNews.com - India Tackles Second Tank Design Project - 11/26/07 17:19



Another stupid report from Vivek ragu***. Of all the "requirements" he has mentioned for the next version tank,bar the active defense,everything else is already present o Arjun.

The dude expects 1000 T-90s to be build in 3 years,starting in 2008 and ending in 2011! What an idiot.


----------



## BATMAN

Hello Con,
Here, I help you finding another stupid writer:
Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank : India World


> Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank
> Posted on : 2007-11-13 | Author : IANS
> News Category : India
> 
> 
> New Delhi, Nov 13 - The Indian Army has sought a new generation main battle tank (MBT) even as it reluctantly prepares to receive the homegrown Arjun tank that has been over three decades in the making.
> 
> 'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.
> 
> 'I have no doubt that the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) will be able to develop indigenous capabilities for coming up with a better answer and more versatile armoured fighting vehicle (than Arjun) in the future,' he added while speaking at the inaugural session of an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles, the first to be held here.
> 
> Kapoor also called for synergy between scientists, users and producers to ensure the delivery of a cutting-edge-technology tank.
> 
> 'The scientists cannot work in isolation. The users (the army) should be with them. So also should the producers, be they the public sector undertakings or private players. Only then will we see an indigenous armoured fighting vehicle of international quality,' the army chief maintained.
> 
> *Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.*
> 
> *These tanks, in fact, had been handed over for user trials last year and were returned to the manufacturer -- the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment -- with a list of defects that have now apparently been ironed out.*
> 
> These include a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas -- principally deserts -- and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.
> 
> At a review meeting with the DRDO in April, Defence Minister A.K. Antony is known to have asked the organisation to get its act together to rectify these defects or the government might have to take another look at the entire programme.
> 
> Parliament's Standing Committee on Defence has, in two reports earlier this year, remarked adversely on the slow pace of Arjun's development and asked the DRDO to quicken the process.
> 
> The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.
> 
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.



It is clear now that one of the major problem with Arjun was its weight and size, which makes it a sitting duck. Since this was a design related deficiency so ironing out other defects was irrelevant for IA.


----------



## con

BATMAN said:


> Hello Con,
> Here, I help you finding another stupid writer:
> Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank : India World
> 
> 
> It is clear now that one of the major problem with Arjun was its weight and size, which makes it a sitting duck. Since this was a design related deficiency so ironing out other defects was irrelevant for IA.



Really? How does Arjun's weight and size make it a sitting duck? 
You say the size and T-90 & AK will spare it from attack? By your logic M1a2,Leo,Chally which all are more heavier than Arjun must be easily knocked out. Isn't it? Please enlighten me how did you reach that conclusion.

The reports which you have mention are good until they just report. The moment they give out opinions, any one who has been following Indian Armour development will make out that these reporters are just hot air! Read the report correctly. The comments are not from IA,but their own hyperbola! No matter what ever bu***** they report,T-90 will the LAST tank India will import. The future of Indian Armour will be Arjun and it's derivative. Indian Ministry of Defence has already cleared the production of the next batch of 124 Arjun, after the first batch of 124 Arjun will be completed delivery by the end of 2008.

You dont need to extra smart to understand that it is virtually impossible to built 1000 T-90 tanks in 3 years in peace time.The guy thinks it can be easily done.What a joke. 
Add to this the report thinks a 40 tonne tank will be able to handle future anti-tank weapons and that too a decade from now.Even today there is hardly any answer for pure kinetic anti-tank missiles.Imagine what it will be decade later. The reporter is just talking nonsense.
Do you want me to take these reports as authoritative reference of Indian Armour development? Please spare me. I prefer refering better sources.


----------



## BATMAN

> The reports which you have mention are good until they just report. The moment they give out opinions, any one who has been following Indian Armour development will make out that these reporters are just hot air! Read the report correctly. The comments are not from IA,but their own hyperbola! No matter what ever bu***** they report



Con, Almost similar report is published in Janes. 
I find it hard to believe your claim of rejecting it and labeling it as personal views of some anti-Indian journalist and not accepting it as news!

India eyes new MBT despite Arjun's arrival - Jane's Land Forces News



> The Indian Army is seeking a new generation main battle tank (MBT) even as it prepares to receive the locally designed Arjun MBT that has been over three decades in the making.
> 
> "What we have today *[Arjun] is mid-level technology*. What we need is a tank of international quality," India's army chief General Deepak Kapoor said in New Delhi at an international seminar on armoured fighting vehicles.
> 
> "I have no doubt that the Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] will be able to develop indigenous capabilities for coming up with a better answer and more versatile armoured fighting vehicle [than Arjun] in the future," he added. Arjun was designed by the DRDO.
> 
> Referring to the DRDO's much criticised inefficiencies, Gen Kapoor also called for greater synergy between defence scientists, users and producers to ensure the delivery of a 'cutting-edge-technology' MBT.
> 
> "The [defence] scientists cannot work in isolation. The users [the army] should be with them. So also should the producers, be they the public sector undertakings or private players. Only then will we see an indigenous armoured fighting vehicle of international quality," the army chief said.
> 
> 186 of 561 words
> © 2007 Jane's Information Group
> End of non-subscriber extract


----------



## Logic note

Its a big game of perception , DRDO or any Indian research establishment has to counter this perception of "west is the best" .



> The 14th report of the Balasaheb Vikhe Patil-headed parliamentary standing committee on defence has vindicated THE WEEK's reports (Feb. 19, 2006 and February 18, 2007) that the services are as much to blame for Defence Research and Development Organisation's project delay. The committee has noted that many of DRDO's difficulties are caused by the changing of the qualitative requirements (QR) by the services midstream, and the long and extended trials by them. Said a DRDO scientist to THE WEEK: "When it comes to imported systems, the services are willing to dilute their QR if the supplier can bring down the price. Why can't they extend the same concession to systems developed by our own scientists?"
> 
> The committee, too, has criticised the services' phoren craze. "...indigenously developed product is subjected to prolonged and exhaustive trial and evaluation, whereas imported products are not subjected to the same evaluation, but are readily accepted...," it noted.


----------



## Logic note

DRDO products compared to Israeli products .



> the Barak had a 50&#37; rate of failure since tests conducted between 1994- or 1996-2000 as per a note sent by the then Scientific advisor, Dr. Kalam to the defence ministry. Even after purchasing the Barak, the Navy has admitted to 2 failures in its own tests (one of which was witnessed by PM Dr. Manmohan Singh). Now, in contrast during the period of 2003-2006* the Trishul has had exactly 14 successful tests out of 20*, but still the IAF/Navy refused to accept it.


----------



## BATMAN

Army re-evaluating battle tank Arjun
Gulf Times &#8211; Qatar&#8217;s top-selling English daily newspaper - India



> &#8220;We are currently re-evaluating the Arjun but will have to wait for the summer trials (in May-June) to find out if the defects we had pointed out have *truly *been rectified,&#8221; a senior army officer said.



AGAIN?


----------



## KENT

BATMAN said:


> Army re-evaluating battle tank Arjun
> Gulf Times  Qatars top-selling English daily newspaper - India
> 
> 
> 
> AGAIN?




Yes chap it is again! afterall it is Indian Army who will going to used it.


----------



## ejaz007

Instead of reevaluating Arjun wouldn't it be better to design another tank. The experience gained from Arjun could be useful.


----------



## KENT

ejaz007 said:


> Instead of reevaluating Arjun wouldn't it be better to design another tank. The experience gained from Arjun could be useful.




It would be much better to learn how to walk before trying to run.

Unless and until in a particuler project, you don't endure the period of facing technical glitches as well dedicating competence in solving those technical glitches, you can't become versatile and hardcore in terms of experience of building challenging engineering marvels. This is exactly what India is doing right now with Arjun. 

DRDO has already embarked upon design all new MBT apart from Arjun like MBT Karna as well as Arjun Mk-II.


----------



## ak56

KENT said:


> It would be much better to learn how to walk before trying to run.
> 
> Unless and until in a particuler project, you don't endure the period of facing technical glitches as well dedicating competence in solving those technical glitches, you can't become versatile and hardcore in terms of experience of building challenging engineering marvels. This is exactly what India is doing right now with Arjun.
> 
> DRDO has already embarked upon design all new MBT apart from Arjun like MBT Karna as well as Arjun Mk-II.



Arjun or Karna- both will be destroyed by our superior Al-Khalids in a real war scenario. Then guys like you will shut up their bloody mouths.


----------



## BATMAN

KENT said:


> DRDO has already embarked upon design all new MBT apart from Arjun like MBT Karna as well as Arjun Mk-II.



Very impressive!
I knew only one Arjun, can you tell us more about those new projects?
Will those be indigenous attempts as before? What are the allocated budgets? Difference in specifications?


----------



## Titanium

Developers of MBT for the last 30 years and producing T-72 for how long....and a so-called software prowess to boot......is looking for FCS:
March 17, 2008 

India Requests Proposals for Tank Fire-Control Systems 

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI 

NEW DELHI &#8212; The Indian Army in mid-February asked industry for proposals as it prepares to buy 1,000 thermal-imaging fire-control systems for its T-72 tanks. 

A request for bids is expected later this year, as the need is urgent, one Indian Army official said. Army officials want the vendors &#8212; Sagem and Thales, France; Elbit, Israel; Bumar, Poland; and Rosoboronexport, Russia &#8212; to supply various kinds of information about their products, including physical, operational and maintenance characteristics, such as weight and gun elevation, azimuth and positioning. 

Other questions are: Does the gunner sight have a stabilized head mirror, thermal sight, day optical channel, laser rangefinder? Is the sight independently physically stabilized in both planes? What is accuracy of sight in milliradians? What is the operative range of the infrared spectrum of the thermal imager camera? 

The officials also want to know how the systems work when their computers fail: How do operators manually zero the readings, find the range and target speed, adjust for variation in muzzle velocity, and more? 

The purchase will be part of India&#8217;s more-than-$1 billion effort to upgrade its 1,200 operational T-72 M1s, which were purchased from the former Soviet Union or produced in India under license. Other planned improvements include night-fighting systems, nuclear-biological-chemical protection, radios, fire-detectionand-suppression gear, gyros and laser-warning systems. 

*The Army must also buy foreign tanks in the next five to seven years to shore up its dwindling inventory*, a senior Indian Defence Ministry official said. 

In December, Army officials confirmed a $1.2 billion-plus order for 347 T-90 tanks from Russia. India already owns 310 T-90s. The Army will retire about onethird of its 3,000 total tanks by 2009 or 2010: Vijayantas, T-55s and about 400 older T-72s.


----------



## baqai

i have seen people both from our (Pakistan) and Indian side going for each other throats when it comes to jf-17 or LCA or Argun or any other product which respective country is trying to develop.

If we step out of our typical "we are enemies" mind frame than we have to accept the fact that both the countries regardless of success or failure of the project will end up having valuable and precious EXPERIENCE which unfortunately none of the western nations were willing to share with us.

So Arjun or LCA might be failure today and being Pakistani that doesn't really give me a very big grin, the experience Indians will gain from their attempts which will be utilized to further develop any other projects however is something which will worry me 

just my 2 cents other might differ from my POV


----------



## blain2

Valid point Baqai!


----------



## IceCold

baqai said:


> i have seen people both from our (Pakistan) and Indian side going for each other throats when it comes to jf-17 or LCA or Argun or any other product which respective country is trying to develop.
> 
> If we step out of our typical "we are enemies" mind frame than we have to accept the fact that both the countries regardless of success or failure of the project will end up having valuable and precious EXPERIENCE which unfortunately none of the western nations were willing to share with us.
> 
> So Arjun or LCA might be failure today and being Pakistani that doesn't really give me a very big grin, the experience Indians will gain from their attempts which will be utilized to further develop any other projects however is something which will worry me
> 
> just my 2 cents other might differ from my POV



Indeed the experience gained by the indians will be very valuable for their future indegious projects however the same scenario cannot be hold true for pakistan. The reason is we being a small nation with a small budget cannot simply afford to reinvent the wheel when it has already been invented and can be easily found in the market. What we can do however is that we can buy the wheel and make it better to suit our needs. So just because indians will be able to develop something entirely on their own doesnt make me loose my sleep.


----------



## Titanium

baqai said:


> So Arjun or LCA might be failure today and being Pakistani that doesn't really give me a very big grin, the experience Indians will gain from their attempts which will be utilized to further develop any other projects however is something which will worry me
> 
> just my 2 cents other might differ from my POV



Not with the current set of People, you know who am mentioning. DRDO could have got so much from building mig-21, Mig-27, jaguar etcc..but is it any helpfull??

Same with tanks........India has a history of building both british as well as soviet....... still FCS tender is called for upgradation, from guess who.......poland!!! which is also a licence builder of T-72 just like India.


----------



## JEFF

IceCold said:


> Indeed the experience gained by the indians will be very valuable for their future indegious projects however the same scenario cannot be hold true for pakistan. The reason is we being a small nation with a small budget cannot simply afford to reinvent the wheel when it has already been invented and can be easily found in the market. What we can do however is that we can buy the wheel and make it better to suit our needs. So just because indians will be able to develop something entirely on their own doesnt make me loose my sleep.



The theory of indigenous production is that it not only make country self relient but also it helps to save its precious foriegn exchange and that is exactly what happening with India and on top of that they have also introduces the offset clause. On the face of it, having a self reliant means that it will also attract foreign especially western firm to collabratation with us as they come to know the caliber of ours in manufacturing of weapons. 

Regarding your point of purchases of weapon from outside and then refurbish it to suit the needs have their own disadvantages as well. As Pakistan can't no longer afford to import the weapon from outside as considering its slow economic growth and precious foriegn exchange reserves. And hence it becomes impertive for pakistan to built on by own rather then depending upon others theyby making itself hostage to other countries.


----------



## JEFF

Titanium said:


> Not with the current set of People, you know who am mentioning. DRDO could have got so much from building mig-21, Mig-27, jaguar etcc..but is it any helpfull??



But you also have to take into account Buidling of Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar was liceance production and on the top of it they were roughly from the catagory of 2nd and 3rd generation fighter planes, whereas what India is developing is 4th generation fighter plane which it never even liceance produced and hence delays are out to crop up. As well as the technolgical gadets that have been fitted with Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar are no where nearer to what Indin is developing with Tejas. On the face of it India has already successfully manage to produce 2nd generation fighter plane in the form of Marut. 




Titanium said:


> Same with tanks........India has a history of building both british as well as soviet....... still FCS tender is called for upgradation, from guess who.......poland!!! which is also a licence builder of T-72 just like India.




History of developing tanks but you also have to elabroate what kind of Tanks Indian were manufacturing. Theory that I have elobrated above about differnce between 2nd & 3rd generation fighter plane and 4th generation fighter and their buidling is also applicable in case of Tank Development especially when country have the history of liceance production of Tanks.


----------



## Titanium

JEFF said:


> But you also have to take into account Buidling of Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar was liceance production and on the top of it they were roughly from the catagory of 2nd and 3rd generation fighter planes, whereas what India is developing is 4th generation fighter plane which it never even liceance produced and hence delays are out to crop up. As well as the technolgical gadets that have been fitted with Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar are no where nearer to what Indin is developing with Tejas. On the face of it India has already successfully manage to produce 2nd generation fighter plane in the form of Marut.



The idea of licence building is to learn and establish a aeronautical industry, so that we can develop the next gen aircraft. But did the idea translated into any meaning ful contribution in the development of the next fighter??? 

this is where the developers of LCA failed in raising to the occasion of 3 to 4th gen.
Suppose India wants to go alone with 5th gen aircraft......your above example fall flat that DRDO is only developed 4 th and govt asking for 5th gen??



> History of developing tanks but you also have to elabroate what kind of Tanks Indian were manufacturing. Theory that I have elobrated above about differnce between 2nd & 3rd generation fighter plane and 4th generation fighter and their buidling is also applicable in case of Tank Development especially when country have the history of liceance production of Tanks.



That is the reason I gave the example of Poland, they able to assimilate the T-72 technology, being same like india a licence producer. where as India could not graduate from assembling, now looks to poland for help in upgrading...... this is Sameful, don't you think???


----------



## JEFF

Titanium said:


> The idea of licence building is to learn and establish a aeronautical industry, so that we can develop the next gen aircraft.



See to certain extent it might be true, but licenace production is all about assembling differnt compenant in knock down or semi knock down kit and hence you have don't have battle with design of liceance produced aircraft since all its design parameters are validate, in contrast in indigeous production of aircraft you have to design each and every compenant of aircraft on by own as well as airframe as well and hence it ought to take time in their validation as compared to liceance production. Another part is that engine development, LCA major worry is its engine, definetly India also have liceanse produced engines as well but design and thurst of those engine were validate and predetermined and hence you don't have to brainstrom while manufacuring but in case of India, it has brainstrom regarding thrust of the engine of its own which it never try to do in liceance production. 




Titanium said:


> But did the idea translated into any meaning ful contribution in the development of the next fighter???



Definetly the idea is contributed a lot as you can see in the form of upgradation of Mig-27, Mig-21, Jaguars, Mig-29 as well as Su-30MKI, all these upgradation also involve various components of Indian origin as were developed during design and development of Tejas. 




Titanium said:


> this is where the developers of LCA failed in raising to the occasion of 3 to 4th gen.



Since they never learn during the liceance production of other jet with regards to raising engine thrust, Radar etc. since during liceance production of the jets it is highly unlikely that you have to deal with competence regarding increasing thurst of engine and developing pulse doppler radar.




Titanium said:


> Suppose India wants to go alone with 5th gen aircraft......your above example fall flat that DRDO is only developed 4 th and govt asking for 5th gen??



And this is exactly the reason why India has first going for Joint production of 5th genenration of PAK-FA with russians, because Indian designers will incorporate the learning that they have gained in PAK-FA in MCA and also this is the reason why it has taking time in raising the thrust of the Kaveri.





Titanium said:


> That is the reason I gave the example of Poland, they able to assimilate the T-72 technology, being same like india a licence producer. where as India could not graduate from assembling, now looks to poland for help in upgrading...... this is Sameful, don't you think???



Once again I want to ask you, wheather India was involved in FCS development during license production of T-72? It is not then how do you supposed to raise finger over India&#8217;s competence in FCS development, infact BEL is currently designing FCS but only thing is that they have fell short of polish on account of extensive experience of Poland since world war-II.

Why does it matter of shameful, even you don't have to taken into account their Polish experience in buidling tanks, they have involved in design and development of tanks since 1930, and hence there is no match for Indian and Polish tank development. If even it was matter of shame then why does Poland is still licensed manufacturing T-72 when they have legacy of extensive armoured vehicle development dates back to prior of world war II.


----------



## Iceman

heyyy . i resent that RANT remark ... i am off for some official work .. but i sure am gonna come back with a gang ...  wait up dudes .....i am gonna desecrate the Arjun ...now that the dude has asked for it


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> The Pakistani contributions weer mentioned in Icecolds post.
> 
> AS in the case of the JF-17 - Pakistani scientists and engineers worked in China (presumably because we lacked the extensive infrastructure to undertake such a project in Pakistan) with the Chinese during development of the JF-17. Possibly the same in this case



I completely agree with you agno, this is one of the first step in the learning curve which will eventually lead to indegenous design capability and development. My replies were based on Icemans post where posted certain issues without substantiating them.

Cheers


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> heyyy . i resent that RANT remark ... i am off for some official work .. but i sure am gonna come back with a gang ... wait up dudes .....i am gonna desecrate the Arjun ...now that the dude has asked for it



Sure you are welcome.


----------



## Titanium

OHH...... Lets wait for one more winter........summer....

*
Arjun tank fails winter trials, Army Chief writes to Antony*

Manu Pubby

Posted online: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at 2317 hrs IST

New Delhi, April 16
In a major setback to indigenous development project, the Arjun tank has failed to clear a crucial round of winter trials that were to decide whether the tank will be cleared for bulk production by the Army.

*While the tank has been consistently suffering transmission problems and trouble in its suspension unit, the latest round of user trials that concluded in March brought out major problems with German engines fitted on the indigenous tank.
*
Now, a disappointed Army Chief has written to Defence Minister A K Antony saying a *&#8220;lot of improvements&#8221; are needed before the tank can be cleared *for bulk intake into its armoured regiments.

During the five months of Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in Rajasthan, two Arjun tanks that were tested by the Army suffered engine failures on four separate occasions. This, when the Main Battle Tanks had been put through only 1,000 km of trials. The tank is fitted with German MTU 838 Ka 501 engines.

While this has come as a major embarrassment for DRDO that has been claiming that all defects on the tank have been rectified, the Army has made it clear that given the present problems on the tank, bulk intake is not an option. The Army has already ordered 124 tanks but had kept its options open for further purchases.

*&#8220;The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far. The tanks have done about 1,000 km each. There is a problem,*&#8221; a senior Army officer informed the Parliament Standing Committee on Defence last month.

The tanks are now set for an even more gruelling round of summer trials in Rajasthan next month where they will be tested in temperatures of over 40 degrees Celsius.


----------



## Always Neutral

Titanium said:


> OHH...... Lets wait for one more winter........summer....
> 
> *
> Arjun tank fails winter trials, Army Chief writes to Antony*
> 
> Manu Pubby
> 
> Posted online: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at 2317 hrs IST
> 
> New Delhi, April 16
> In a major setback to indigenous development project, the Arjun tank has failed to clear a crucial round of winter trials that were to decide whether the tank will be cleared for bulk production by the Army.
> 
> *While the tank has been consistently suffering transmission problems and trouble in its suspension unit, the latest round of user trials that concluded in March brought out major problems with German engines fitted on the indigenous tank.
> *
> Now, a disappointed Army Chief has written to Defence Minister A K Antony saying a *lot of improvements are needed before the tank can be cleared *for bulk intake into its armoured regiments.
> 
> During the five months of Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in Rajasthan, two Arjun tanks that were tested by the Army suffered engine failures on four separate occasions. This, when the Main Battle Tanks had been put through only 1,000 km of trials. The tank is fitted with German MTU 838 Ka 501 engines.
> 
> While this has come as a major embarrassment for DRDO that has been claiming that all defects on the tank have been rectified, the Army has made it clear that given the present problems on the tank, bulk intake is not an option. The Army has already ordered 124 tanks but had kept its options open for further purchases.
> 
> *The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far. The tanks have done about 1,000 km each. There is a problem,* a senior Army officer informed the Parliament Standing Committee on Defence last month.
> 
> The tanks are now set for an even more gruelling round of summer trials in Rajasthan next month where they will be tested in temperatures of over 40 degrees Celsius.



The tank is a failure no doubt but the learning curve to come to that conclusion will hopefully be usefull in future.

Regards


----------



## ejaz007

*Arjun Main Battle Tanks Fail Winter Trials 2007: Indian Army*
Dated 17/4/2008

An indigenous main battle tank (MBT) that has been in the development for nearly 36 years has failed to deliver at the just-concluded winter trials, the Indian Army has told a key parliamentary panel.

'We have just carried out the trial in winter. The tank performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far,' parliament's Standing Committee on Defence quotes an Indian Army officer as saying. Defence Minister A.K. Antony tabled the committee's 29th report in both houses of parliament Wednesday. 'The defence ministry has been apprised. A lot of improvements have to be done before the army is satisfied with the tank,' the report quotes the army officer as telling the committee at its meeting here last month.

The report could prove to be the last nail in the MBT project, analysts said. Ahead of the winter trials, conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, an army officer had told IANS: 'We are currently re-evaluating the Arjun (as the MBT is named) to find out if the defects we had pointed out have truly been rectified.' 'In any case, even if the defects are removed, the army is unlikely to go beyond the figure of 124 that it has initially contracted to purchase,' the officer said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

*Fourteen Arjun tanks had been handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the deserts - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius. Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor and his predecessor, General J.J. Singh, had on separate occasions expressed their unhappiness with the tank.*

'What we have today is a mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Kapoor said last November. Singh had spoken in much in the same vein during a major Indian Army exercise in the desert of Rajasthan in April-May, 2007. 'We have to make sure the troops are not exposed to any disadvantage,' Singh replied cryptically when asked about Arjun's performance during the five-day Exercise 'Ashwamedh' for which a squadron of 14 Arjun tanks was deployed.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995. Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project, and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001. Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s. With the Arjun development delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s.

Arjun Main Battle Tanks Fail Winter Trials 2007: Indian Army | India Defence


----------



## Logic note

Broadsword: ONLY FOR HARDCORE TANK BUFFS: The Arjun controversy





> This post is a prelude to an article that I'm writing on the recent controversy over the Army&#8217;s statement to Parliament&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence, which was tabled in parliament as a part of the Committee&#8217;s 29th Report. The part relating to the Arjun, in Para 8.18 of the report, is quoted below:
> 
> 8.18. During evidence before the Committee, a representative of the Army clarifying the position regarding performance of the Arjun tank submitted as under:-
> 
> &#8220;Sir, we have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far. The tanks have done about 1000 km each. There has been a problem. The Defence Minister has been apprised by the Chief. I think two or three days back, he has written a DO letter giving the exact position. So a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied with the Arjun tank.&#8221;
> 
> The factual position
> 
> During the AUCRT in Pokhran, there was NO problem with either of the two engines. The problems were actually with four transmission systems: supplied by Renk AG, from Germany.
> 
> The problem: When the oil temperature went up, the oil viscosity was reduced&#8230; and the oil pressure was therefore insufficient. As a result, the bearing gave way, and the main shaft in the transmission also got damaged. Pieces were flying around and, when the transmission gearbox was opened, it looked pretty ugly.
> 
> The investigations are focusing on three aspects:
> 
> 1. The possibility that the use of indigenous oil, rather than German oil, may have led to a failure of lubrication. The CQA (PP)&#8230; that is Controller of Quality Assurance (Petroleum Products)&#8230; has examined the oil and said that it is of the same grade as the foreign oil. However, the experts from Renk AG are still not convinced. They have taken samples of the oil to Germany to analyse, are will reach a conclusion by Monday, 21st April.
> 
> 2. The possibility that recent changes made to the Arjun&#8217;s system of dual gear levers might have led to the problem. The driver has a Mode Selector Switch (with options: Forward-Neutral-Reverse)&#8230; and also a gear lever (with options: 1, 2, 3, Automatic). So totally, the tank has four forward and two reverse gears. Recently, when the production series tanks began being manufactured, the Gear Lever options were changed to (1, 2, Automatic). In the new system, gears 3 and 4 engage and disengage automatically. In fact, one school of thought amongst the designers is to have just the first gear manual&#8230; and then 2-4 automatic, i.e. (1, Automatic).
> 
> The CVRDE&#8217;s Transmission Group Team has recommended that another Manual Gear lever be introduced. That would be used while tow starting the tank. There are also problems with the logic of gear change in the Pokharan area where the tests are taking place. Unlike the Suratgarh desert, which had heavy sand, the Pokhran desert has hard, flat ground. Since the driving conditions are different, the logic for gear changing has to be different, and the micro-switches that signal the gear changes have to be calibrated differently.
> 
> 3. There is also a possibility that a recent change in the supplier of the bearing that failed might have led to the problem. [Renk AG, which manufactures the gearbox, recently changed its bearing supplier.]
> 
> Experts from Renk AG are reaching the trial area and also CVRDE, Avadi, on 22nd April. Renk AG is one of the world&#8217;s most respected suppliers of transmission systems and it&#8217;s prestige is at stake here. A top Arjun designer says, &#8220;Renk&#8217;s prestige is at stake. I have no doubt they will fix the problem fast.&#8221;
> 
> Problems with four HSUs
> 
> The second problem that the Arjun faced was in some Hydro-pneumatic Suspension Units (HSUs). The Arjun has 7 road wheel stations on each side, which means that each tank has 14 HSUs. With two tanks participating in the trials, there were 28 HSUs that were effectively taking part. Of these, four HSUs failed.
> 
> One of them was a genuine failure, in which the HSU&#8217;s breather pipe got damaged and sand went in through that. The other three HSUs failed after 2000 km of running. HVF lays down a service life of 2000 km for each HSU, so that was predictable. This was not a problem at all.
> 
> It might also be noted that it takes just two hours to replace an HSU in the Arjun. This tank does not have a torsion bar suspension, in which replacing a road wheel station was a major undertaking.
> 
> Incidentally, the HSU has been an area where the Arjun&#8217;s designers have put in some really serious thinking. The terrain in Pokhran, which is flat and hard, generates in the HSU pistons a low amplitude, high frequency vibration. That is in contrast to heavy sand dune country like Suratgarh, where the HSU pistons undergo a high amplitude, low frequency vibration. In Suratgarh there were no problems, but the resurfacing of problems (albeit after the specified service life) in Pokhran brings to mind the earlier problems in which HSUs were leaking while the tank was being transported by train. The low-amplitude, high frequency vibrations generated by the vibrations of a train were enough to cause the HSUs to leak. That problem was resolved by changing the rings of the floating piston in the HSU. Also, the CVRDE tried out different types of piston rings, including imported ones from Hunger, Germany. Eventually, a life of 2000 km was achieved.
> 
> Problems with top rollers
> 
> Three or four top rollers also failed. That is being investigated.
> 
> Problems with tank Muzzle Reference Sight (MRS)
> 
> Of the two tanks undergoing AUCRT, one had a problem with the MRS, which was found to shift when the tank fired. This could have been easily overcome by firing through other means, disregarding the MRS. But suffice to say, the MRS had a problem.
> 
> These are very interesting dimensions to the trials in Pokhran, but far more interesting is the way the Army has reacted to them&#8230; taking the opportunity to slam the CVRDE for a &#8220;substandard&#8221; tank. An article on that will be appearing in the Business Standard on Saturday morning.


----------



## Logic note

Broadsword: Battle-lines drawn on the Arjun tank: Armed Forces prefer Russian armour



> by Ajai Shukla
> (Business Standard: 19th April 2008)
> 
> The battle-lines have been drawn. At stake is the future of one of India&#8217;s most prestigious defence products: the Arjun main battle tank (MBT). In its 29th report, which was tabled in parliament yesterday, Parliament&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence writes that it was &#8220;startled&#8221; to be told that the Arjun tank had performed poorly in winter trials conducted by the army, and that it was miles away from meeting the army&#8217;s requirements.
> 
> Business Standard has learned from three different members of the Standing Committee on Defence that it is more than &#8220;startled&#8221;; it is frankly disbelieving of the army&#8217;s deposition. In its last annual report for 2007-08, the committee was told by the MoD that the Arjun tank was:
> 
> &#8226; &#8220;A product unique in its class&#8221;, and &#8220;an improved system over the T-72.&#8221;
> 
> &#8226; &#8220;Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West&#8221;.
> 
> &#8226; &#8220;Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)&#8221;.
> 
> &#8226; &#8220;Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.&#8221;
> 
> After the army representative slammed the Arjun, the Standing Committee chairman, Balasaheb Vikhe Patil, as well as the Defence Secretary, and several other members agreed that the committee would formulate a clear policy on India&#8217;s tank of the future. Underlying this decision is the belief amongst most members of the Standing Committee that the army is biased against the Arjun tank, and in favour of continuing to use Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.
> 
> There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army&#8217;s deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army&#8217;s suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun&#8217;s performance. In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said, &#8220;The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.&#8221;
> 
> The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3000 kilometers, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank&#8217;s requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life. In fact, it is the Arjun&#8217;s developer, the Central Vehicle R&D Laboratory (CVRDE), Avadi, that has long demanded comparative trials, where the performance of five Arjuns would be gauged against five Russian T-90s and T-72s. The army has consistently sidestepped that invitation.
> 
> The army has also testified incorrectly to the Standing Committee about four engine failures during the recent AUCRT. In fact, sources closely associated with the trials say, the problems were with four gearboxes, manufactured by German company, Renk AG. A world leader in transmission systems, Renk representatives are already in Pokhran and Avadi, analysing and resolving the problem.
> 
> The army does not mention, but problems were also experienced with four hydro-pneumatic suspension units (HSUs), which leaked after the Arjuns had run 2000 kilometers. But the Arjun&#8217;s makers say 2000 kilometers is the service life of the suspension; normally they would have been replaced before the point at which they leaked.
> 
> Officers closely associated with the Arjun, as well as several members of the Standing Committee on Defence contrast the army&#8217;s approach to the Arjun with the navy&#8217;s acceptance of indigenous projects. They say the navy has achieved striking success in building its own warships, by associating itself with the project right from the design stage; warships are accepted into service and many hiccups overcome during their service lives. In contrast, the army is resisting accepting the Arjun until every last hiccup is resolved by the DRDO.
> 
> An application to interview the army&#8217;s Director General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) was approved by the MoD eight months ago. However, the DGMF has not granted an interview so far because of &#8220;scheduling problems.&#8221;


----------



## ejaz007

*Govt looking into `sabotage possibility` of Arjun tank *

New Delhi, April 24: Government on Thursday spoke of the "possibility of sabotage" in winter trials of country`s indigenous Arjun tank prompting army chief, Gen Deepak Kapoor, and other top officials to rush to the Avadi tank factory to carry out fresh inspections. 

Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh told reporters that the possibility of sabotage of the recent winter trials of the Arjun tanks should be examined. 

He said though the German engines in the tanks had been used for over 15 years, "it should be examined how they broke down during the winter trials. 

"How can this happen all of a sudden?" he wondered as he responded to questions whether the tanks had failed in winter trials conducted by the army. 

Eight years after the force placed an order for 124 tanks with the ordinance factory board, the army, in a scathing indictment of the tank`s performance, has told the parliamentary standing committee on defence that the tanks had "faired very badly". 

Army officers have informed the committee that the tanks were miles away from meeting the army`s requirement and several improvements needed to be carried out before they could be declared battle worthy. 

Soon after the minister`s comments, a high-level defence ministry team, comprising the army chief and secretary, defence production Pradeep Kumar left for Avadi tank factory near Chennai to carry out on-the-spot inspection of the tank. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

*Funny theory. Any guess who possibly could have carried out the sabotage. Normally the blame would go to ISI.
Regards,*


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Funny theory. Any guess who possibly could have carried out the sabotage. Normally the blame would go to ISI.



Naaah cmon we are not that bad.. I think the blame will go towards ruskie agents, army personell in their payroll etc etc


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## BATMAN

Sabotage allegations &#8216;baseless&#8217; 
Publish Date: Tuesday,29 April, 2008, at 09:02 AM Doha Time 



> NEW DELHI: The army yesterday refuted allegations of &#8220;sabotage&#8221; in the trials of the indigenously developed main battle tank (MBT) Arjun saying any speculation on this score was &#8220;misconceived&#8217;&#8217;.
> &#8220;During the winter trials of the Arjun tank, the DRDO&#8217;s (Defence Research and Development Organisation) involvement was complete and of the same extent as the user&#8217;s (the army). Hence, any speculation of sabotage in the conduct of the trials is totally uncalled for, misconceived and baseless,&#8221; an army official said.
> Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the army for user trials last May but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These were handed back to the army in December for the winter trials that were conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan.
> The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this month that the Arjun tank, which has been in development for nearly 36 years, failed to deliver at the winter trials. The army said a number of improvements still needed to be carried out before it was satisfied.
> Last Thursday, Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh had hinted at the possibility of the &#8220;sabotage&#8221; during the winter trials. Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor then visited the production unit to inspect the tanks.
> &#8220;The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined,&#8221; Singh had said.
> &#8220;The engines fitted in the tanks were German and were performing well for the past 15 years. I wonder what has happened to them overnight,&#8221; Singh said, referring to the reported failures of the tank.
> Clarifying the issue, the army official said: &#8220;Despite the removal of a large number of defects at the joint receipt inspection (JRI) stage, duly assisted by the Indian Army, major assemblies of the two tanks failed in the winter trials.&#8221;
> The major assemblies included four power packs of German origin and one indigenous gun.
> The army has also pointed to the tank&#8217;s deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.
> The army had laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120mm gun.
> The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.
> However, delays in the Arjun project, and Pakistan&#8217;s decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.
> Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Chennai. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.
> With the development of the Arjun delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s. &#8211; IANS


Army denies sabotage of Arjun trial - National News â News â MSN India - News

half a century for making a tank is simply too bad to be true.
I strongly believe it is Indian army which has sabotaged Arjun tank project.
It needs no investigation and responsible officers should be trialed in public for toying with billion plus nation's pride.

Can some tank specialist tell us what is the significance of winter trials of a machine which sieze to work at temperatures above 45&#176;C? 
Perhaps it was an attempt to induct Arjun as a seasonal tank!


----------



## BATMAN

Army tank fares poorly in latest trials

The Arjun tank is nowhere close to becoming Indias trump card on the battlefield. The Arjun tank project, beset by huge delays and cost overruns, has *once again *failed to meet the armys requirements. Eight years after the force placed an indent for 124 tanks with the Ordnance Factory Board, the Arjun has performed very poorly in winter trials conducted by the army. 

In a blistering indictment of the tanks performance, the army has told a parliamentary panel that the *Arjun requires several improvements before it can be declared battle worthy. * The Standing Committee on Defence was startled to learn that the *tank is miles away from meeting the armys requirements *and several parameters need to be fine-tuned.

The Arjun has been plagued with a mix of problems concerning its fire control system, suspension and poor mobility. The 29th report of the Committee, tabled in Parliament on Wednesday, quotes an army officer as saying, *We have carried out winter trials. The tanks have performed very poorly *and there have been four engine failures. The tanks have done about 1,000 km each.


----------



## BATMAN

Now, a tank of worms crawl out of DRDOs Arjun 

Natteri Adigal 

30 April 2008, Wednesday 

CLOSE ON the heels of the Indian Air Force (IAF) being slammed by ultra-patriotic scientists and technologists, it is now the turn of the Directorate General of Mechanised Warfare (DGMF) to get the beating from bureaucrats and politicians, batting for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The R&D behemoth, which routinely hogs media limelight for the feel-good factor involved in its breakthroughs, considers IAF as insensitive to national pride. The airmen have chosen to be disloyal to the country and send out a Request for Proposal (RFP) to six global manufacturers for the acquisition of 126 multi-role combat aircrafts. If IAF is unpatriotic for losing faith in the ever-elusive Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), the Army is accused of being extremely reluctant to induct Arjun battle tanks, successfully developed indigenously by it. Citing that the indigenous tank has undergone extensive trials  driven over 75,000 km, fired over10,000 ammunition rounds  they claim the Arjuns have proven themselves. 


The Army seems more keen on inducting foreign tanks at great cost rather than indigenous ones, says a high profile lobbyist engaged by DRDO. The Indian Army has been obliquely accused of internal sabotage of the nationally important strategic project. Rao Inderjit Singh, the honourable minister of state in charge of defence production in the Manmohan Singh government has implied disloyalty of the combat officers from the mechanised forces of the Army, by stating, The possibility of sabotage in the recent winter trials of the (Arjun) tanks should be examined. The dignitary is not  as one might imagine from his authoritative note  a knowledgeable one-time military officer, well versed in tank warfare. Inderjit Singh is supposed to be a humble farmer cum lawyer and owes his position to former chief minister of Haryana and his illustrious father, Rao Birender Singh, noted as past master in the game of political disloyalty and defection. Far from being a decorated officer, he is unlikely to have attended any National Cadet Corps (NCC) drill as a student!


DRDO was assigned the work of building Indias own Main Battle Tank (MBT) in 1974. The then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was set on projecting herself as a formidable leader of the Indian Ocean region after her triumph in creating Bangladesh and becoming Durga in the eyes of gullible Indians. Just like the indigenous development of nuclear reactors and weapons undertaken by Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), the only achievement of DRDO in the MBT project was to give it a formidable name  Arjun! It missed deadline after deadline on targets set by itself. While the unfulfilled promises of BARC about a breakthrough in nuclear power sector being just around the corner, could be made up by setting up numerous inefficient thermal power plants, similar hollow promises by DRDO about the MBT (as well as about the LCA) did not present any such alternative to the defence services. Eventually, the organisation that has become noted for sky-high levels of nepotism, corruption and non-performance, lost any semblance of trust it had enjoyed with the Army and the IAF.


The army had to buy the T-72 tanks in late 1970s and T-90 tanks in the 1990s from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). The trusted friend of India was the monopoly supplier, enjoying good clout with top politicians and bureaucrats of New Delhi. So, the Army had to live with numerous technical glitches in these second grade tanks. Moscow sucked up billions of dollars from Indians in the guise of rupee trade, while worthies from Congress and communist parties were content with the crumbs thrown at them. In 2000, the Army was forced, despite serious deficiencies in the half baked imitations touted by DRDO, to place an order for 124 Arjun tanks. These were supposed to be manufactured by the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi, near Chennai and handed over by 2008-09. Even as five machines submitted after long delays to the Army for Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AURT) are yet to be cleared, HVF claims to have almost completed assembly of several tanks under this order at great expense.


Reporting on the third round of AURT last winter, when the tanks miserably failed to stand up to the stringent requirements, the Army told honourable MPs, comprising of the standing committee on defence, We (Army) have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far... There has been a problem. The defence minister has been apprised by the (Army) chief... So, a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied with the Arjun tank.


The public relation folk of DRDO and Indias breed of armchair strategic analysts started finding fault with the Army, claiming that the DGMF systematically undermined the project. The super-brilliant scientists of DRDO went to the extent of questioning the intelligence of the Army officers. It was said that whenever they approached a technology solution, the Army would get new ideas from the latest issue of Janes Defence Weekly and upgrade the design goalposts! The logic of the soldiers that they could not accept a tank-equivalent of PC-XT in the age of Pentium 4 has been portrayed as their keenness to please foreign arms dealers!


Interestingly, the indigenous Arjun is powered by a German engine and the transmission components are designed according to German technology, just like the indigenous Tejas LCA has a General Electric power plant.In both cases, suboptimal design of the other components, awry integration of systems and too high a weight have led to the failure of proven engines.

The MPs, in their superior wisdom, have observed, The committee, however, is startled to hear now from a representative of the Army that the Arjun tanks have performed very poorly and a lot of improvements have to be made before the Army is satisfied with the Arjun tank. It is not clear why things went wrong with the Arjun tank. In any case, the causes for the failure of the Arjun tank should be identified without loss of time...It requires only a little bit of common sense to make the causes clear!


The netas and babus want the Army and IAF to emulate the Indian Navy and fully participate in indigenous design and development of their needs. The worthies have found fault with the soldiers for seeing the Arjun not as a national defence project, but as a tank that they must drive into battle! In effect, the netas are against adopting a judgmental approach in approving indigenous items. Army Chief, Gen Deepak Kapoor has rushed to HVF as part of the stocktaking by the government, in the wake of failure of the trials. High pressure lobbying has been mounted to force the Army to somehow give grace marks and pass the Arjuns in the fourth round of AUCRT in May.

No rational person will find fault with combat officers from the mechanised forces for seeing the Arjun as a tank. After all, the Army is supposed to maintain the tanks over extended periods in combat-ready condition and can compromise on reliability only at the countrys peril. If the netas need to peddle feel-good euphoria to their illiterate vote banks, there are other areas for that. They can boast of any number of make-believe breakthroughs on other fronts  like Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBM), moon missions, submarine-fired nukes and such other fictitious strengths, which are never intended to be used. Any number of desk-bound, bogus scientists and technologists could be employed for that purpose. Similarly, our Navy is minuscule and has only a ceremonial presence. Even if all the allocated money is siphoned off in junks like Kitty Hawk or Admiral Gorshkov, it is not going to make much difference. But, when it comes to real military might, there can be no compromise on quality. It is heartening that the Army and IAF top brass are standing firm and not betraying their fighters. They simply cannot accept mediocre products that are even worse than Russian ones, just because they are indigenous and can generate euphoria. Hopefully, the Army and IAF will succeed in drilling sanity into the heads of the babus and netas that manufacture of mission-critical equipment  and subsequently R&D at a later stage  are better left to be done by entities with core skills and requisite investments. They cannot be achieved just by hollow self-pride. Also, cutting edge R&D can have meaning only after high-tech manufacture is mastered.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Now, a tank of worms crawl out of DRDO&#8217;s Arjun
> 
> Natteri Adigal
> 
> 30 April 2008, Wednesday
> 
> CLOSE ON the heels of the Indian Air Force (IAF) being slammed by ultra-patriotic scientists and technologists, it is now the turn of the Directorate General of Mechanised Warfare (DGMF) to get the beating from bureaucrats and politicians, batting for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The R&D behemoth, which routinely hogs media limelight for the feel-good factor involved in its &#8216;breakthroughs&#8217;, considers IAF as insensitive to national pride. The airmen have chosen to be &#8216;disloyal&#8217; to the country and send out a Request for Proposal (RFP) to six global manufacturers for the acquisition of 126 multi-role combat aircrafts. If IAF is unpatriotic for losing faith in the ever-elusive &#8216;Tejas&#8217; light combat aircraft (LCA), the Army is accused of being extremely reluctant to induct &#8217;Arjun&#8217; battle tanks, &#8220;successfully developed indigenously&#8221; by it. Citing that the indigenous tank has undergone extensive trials &#8211; driven over 75,000 km, fired over10,000 ammunition rounds &#8211; they claim the Arjuns have proven themselves.
> 
> 
> The Army seems more keen on inducting foreign tanks at great cost rather than indigenous ones,&#8221; says a high profile lobbyist engaged by DRDO. The Indian Army has been obliquely accused of &#8217;internal sabotage&#8217; of the nationally important strategic project. Rao Inderjit Singh, the honourable minister of state in charge of defence production in the Manmohan Singh government has implied disloyalty of the combat officers from the mechanised forces of the Army, by stating, &#8220;The possibility of sabotage in the recent winter trials of the (Arjun) tanks should be examined.&#8221; The dignitary is not &#8211; as one might imagine from his authoritative note &#8211; a knowledgeable one-time military officer, well versed in tank warfare. Inderjit Singh is supposed to be a &#8217;humble&#8217; farmer cum lawyer and owes his position to former chief minister of Haryana and his illustrious father, Rao Birender Singh, noted as past master in the game of political disloyalty and defection. Far from being a decorated officer, he is unlikely to have attended any National Cadet Corps (NCC) drill as a student!
> 
> 
> DRDO was assigned the work of building India&#8217;s own Main Battle Tank (MBT) in 1974. The then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was set on projecting herself as a formidable leader of the Indian Ocean region after her &#8216;triumph&#8217; in creating Bangladesh and becoming &#8216;Durga&#8217; in the eyes of gullible Indians. Just like the indigenous development of nuclear reactors and weapons undertaken by Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), the only achievement of DRDO in the MBT project was to give it a formidable name &#8211; Arjun! It missed deadline after deadline on targets set by itself. While the unfulfilled promises of BARC about a breakthrough in nuclear power sector being just around the corner, could be made up by setting up numerous inefficient thermal power plants, similar hollow promises by DRDO about the MBT (as well as about the LCA) did not present any such alternative to the defence services. Eventually, the organisation that has become noted for sky-high levels of nepotism, corruption and non-performance, lost any semblance of trust it had enjoyed with the Army and the IAF.
> 
> 
> The army had to buy the T-72 tanks in late 1970s and T-90 tanks in the 1990s from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). The &#8216;trusted friend&#8217; of India was the monopoly supplier, enjoying good clout with top politicians and bureaucrats of New Delhi. So, the Army had to live with numerous technical glitches in these second grade tanks. Moscow sucked up billions of dollars from Indians in the guise of &#8216;rupee trade&#8217;, while worthies from Congress and communist parties were content with the crumbs thrown at them. In 2000, the Army was forced, despite serious deficiencies in the half baked imitations touted by DRDO, to place an order for 124 Arjun tanks. These were supposed to be manufactured by the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi, near Chennai and handed over by 2008-09. Even as five machines submitted after long delays to the Army for Accelerated Usage-cum-Reliability Trials (AURT) are yet to be cleared, HVF claims to have &#8216;almost completed&#8217; assembly of several tanks under this order at great expense.
> 
> 
> Reporting on the third round of AURT last winter, when the tanks miserably failed to stand up to the stringent requirements, the Army told honourable MPs, comprising of the standing committee on defence, &#8220;We (Army) have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far... There has been a problem. The defence minister has been apprised by the (Army) chief... So, a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied with the Arjun tank.
> 
> 
> The public relation folk of DRDO and India&#8217;s breed of armchair strategic analysts started finding fault with the Army, claiming that the DGMF systematically undermined the project. The super-brilliant scientists of DRDO went to the extent of questioning the intelligence of the Army officers. It was said that whenever they approached a technology solution, the Army would get new ideas from the latest issue of Jane&#8217;s Defence Weekly and upgrade the design goalposts! The logic of the soldiers that they could not accept a tank-equivalent of PC-XT in the age of Pentium 4 has been portrayed as their keenness to please foreign arms dealers!
> 
> 
> Interestingly, the &#8216;indigenous&#8217; Arjun is powered by a German engine and the transmission components are designed according to German technology, just like the &#8216;indigenous&#8217; Tejas LCA has a General Electric power plant.In both cases, suboptimal design of the other components, awry integration of systems and too high a weight have led to the failure of proven engines.
> 
> The MPs, in their superior wisdom, have observed, &#8220;The committee, however, is startled to hear now from a representative of the Army that the Arjun tanks have performed very poorly and a lot of improvements have to be made before the Army is satisfied with the Arjun tank. It is not clear why things went wrong with the Arjun tank. In any case, the causes for the failure of the Arjun tank should be identified without loss of time...&#8221;It requires only a little bit of common sense to make the causes clear!
> 
> 
> The netas and babus want the Army and IAF to emulate the Indian Navy and fully participate in indigenous design and development of their needs. The worthies have found fault with the soldiers for seeing &#8220;the Arjun not as a national defence project, but as a tank that they must drive into battle!&#8221; In effect, the netas are against adopting a &#8216;judgmental&#8217; approach in approving indigenous items. Army Chief, Gen Deepak Kapoor has rushed to HVF as part of the stocktaking by the government, in the wake of failure of the trials. High pressure lobbying has been mounted to force the Army to somehow give grace marks and pass the Arjuns in the fourth round of AUCRT in May.
> 
> No rational person will find fault with combat officers from the mechanised forces for seeing the Arjun as a &#8217;tank&#8217;. After all, the Army is supposed to maintain the tanks over extended periods in &#8216;combat-ready&#8217; condition and can compromise on reliability only at the country&#8217;s peril. If the netas need to peddle feel-good euphoria to their illiterate vote banks, there are other areas for that. They can boast of any number of make-believe breakthroughs on other fronts &#8211; like Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles&#8217; (ICBM), moon missions, submarine-fired nukes and such other fictitious strengths, which are never intended to be used. Any number of desk-bound, bogus scientists and technologists could be employed for that purpose. Similarly, our Navy is minuscule and has only a ceremonial presence. Even if all the allocated money is siphoned off in junks like Kitty Hawk or Admiral Gorshkov, it is not going to make much difference. But, when it comes to real military might, there can be no compromise on quality. It is heartening that the Army and IAF top brass are standing firm and not betraying their fighters. They simply cannot accept mediocre products that are even worse than Russian ones, just because they are &#8216;indigenous&#8217; and can generate euphoria. Hopefully, the Army and IAF will succeed in drilling sanity into the heads of the babus and netas that manufacture of mission-critical equipment &#8211; and subsequently R&D at a later stage &#8211; are better left to be done by entities with core skills and requisite investments. They cannot be achieved just by hollow self-pride. Also, cutting edge R&D can have meaning only after high-tech manufacture is mastered.



In short welcome to the world of high tech manufacturing


----------



## BATMAN

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> In short welcome to the world of high tech manufacturing



Indeed very short. I suppose you meant high quality manufacturing, instead.

Technology can be acquired through T.o.T using diplomatic tactics, can be stolen or copied but there is no shortcut in the process of developing quality awareness and workmanship skills.
Good luck.


----------



## BATMAN

Arjun Tanks Failed To Deliver On Many Fronts: Defence Ministry 
Monday 05th of May 2008



> The defence ministry Monday admitted in Parliament that the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) *Arjun has shown some recurring defects*, besides having some faulty parts, in the just-concluded winter trials.
> 
> 'Failure of power packs, *lower accuracy and consistency have been noticed *during the ongoing Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials by the Army,' Minister of State for Defence (production) Rao Inderjit Singh told the Lok Sabha.
> 
> *'During the trial, the tank also witnessed shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels*,' Singh added.
> 
> Last year, 14 Arjun tanks had been handed over to the Indian Army for user trials, but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects.
> 
> *These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.*
> 
> Army Chief Gen Deepak Kapoor had gone to the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Tamil Nadu April 24 to inspect the Arjun tank after it failed the winter trials.
> 
> The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this month that the Arjun tank, which has been in development for nearly 36 years, had *failed to deliver at the just-concluded winter trials in Rajasthan. After the winter trials, conducted at below 40 degrees Celsius, the army said the tank needed a lot of improvement before it could be inducted.*
> 
> Kapoor and his predecessor J.J. Singh have on separate occasions expressed their unhappiness with the tank.
> 
> 'What we have today is a mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Kapoor had said in November.
> 
> *J.J. Singh had spoken in much the same vein during a major Indian Army exercise in the deserts of Rajasthan in April-May 2007*.
> 
> The army had laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.
> 
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.
> 
> The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.
> 
> However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 tank from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.
> 
> Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the HVF at Avadi. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.
> 
> With the development of the Arjun delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s.
> 
> *The summer trials will be conducted in Rajasthan soon.*


*NOT AGAIN* 
All not well with Arjun tanks, admits Govt


----------



## BATMAN

Five defects in Arjun tanks listed
New Delhi, May 5: The government has listed five "defects" noticed in the Arjun tanks during user trials conducted by the Army. These are *"failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers, and chipping of gun barrels".*


----------



## ejaz007

*Defects found in Arjun tank during trial: Govt*
5 May 2008, 2126 hrs IST,PTI

NEW DELHI: The country's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday. 

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply. 

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said. 

The minister's findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks' final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out. 

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified. 

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials. 

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


----------



## nitesh

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

T-20 tanks need cooling

*Now what is this T-20*

Army proposes air-conditioners 
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, May 20
India&#8217;s main battle tank, the Russian-built T-90, is facing problems with its sophisticated computerised systems as they are not working properly in high temperatures which is a routine during the summer in Rajasthan and parts of Gujarat.

The Army has now requested the ministry of defence to install air-conditioners in the tanks as the electronics have been failing when temperatures rise above the 45&#176; Celsius. Sources said the project to install air-conditioners would be handled in India only. It will be a big task as about 300 T-90 tanks are required to be re-fitted and equipped with a cooling system.

The heat is hampering the working of the sophisticated system on board and also slows down the firing capability. Modern tanks, like modern aircraft, have a very sensitive sensor and computer-based firing and navigation system. The source added that the Defence Research and Development Organisation would be roped in for the project that would require some hardcore engineering work.

However, it will not be an easy job. The tank does not have space within its exterior armour that can take an AC unit. Moreover, an externally mounted AC unit will be a liability in case of a conflict. Also an auxillary power unit will be required to power the AC. Again fitting this power unit will be task in itself, said a top official.

The existing power system drawn from a 1000 horse power engine may not be enough to run the 46-tonne tank and also power the AC. And this is not some normal air conditioning it will require a powerful AC as the temperatures in the desert areas like Barmer, located smack on the border with Pakistan, go up to the 50&#176; C mark. And the inside of the tank can be even more heat generating. The temperature inside the chamber will be required to be brought down to a comfortable 30 degrees as the hood will be required to be closed to make the AC effective.

Even if the auxiliary power system is fitted it will need fuel to run and this will mean drawing fuel from the tank&#8217;s existing supplies.

In the past it has been observed that the systems of the tanks gets heated so much that ice packs were needed to cool them.


----------



## shrivatsa

Arjun Mk2 MBT&#8217;s pre-production prototype to rollout by mid-2009


By Prasun K. Sengupta

May (2008)
Feature / Report
The Field is Open
Pay Back Time
Smooth Sailing
Eastern Showcase


Unfazed and undeterred by the quality-control problems that have beset the series-production phase of the Arjun Mk1 main battle tank (MBT) at the assembly line of the ministry of defence-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi, the DRDO&#8217;s Avadi-based Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment has embarked upon the development of the third-generation Arjun Mk2 MBT, whose first pre-production prototype is due for rollout by mid-2009, as per present estimates. As per the Army HQ&#8217;s General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR), this MBT &#8212; to be manned by a three-man crew complement will have a redesigned rear hull section and turret, an enhanced powerpack, a turret-mounted autoloader coupled to a redesigned turret bustle, an improved 120mm rifled-bore main gun controlled by a new hunter-killer digital fire-control system (DFCS), and a novel environment control system being co-developed with Israel&#8217;s Kinetics Ltd that will provide NBC air filtration/over-pressure generation, as well as cooling for the vectronics (all built by the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd) and crew compartment. The redesign of the Arjun Mk2&#8217;s hull and turret sections, and R&D work on the autoloader is being undertaken with the help of France&#8217;s Nexter Systems.

The main gun, which currently has a barrel length of 44 calibres, will be increased to 52 calibres by the DRDO&#8217;s Pune-based Armaments R&D Establishment. The gyro-stabilised gun will be insulated with a thermal sleeve and will incorporate a muzzle reference system, as well as an automatic compressed air fume extraction system instead of the Arjun Mk1&#8217;s existing fume extraction cylinder. The turret, to have a rotation time of nine seconds through 360 degrees, is being redesigned around the ammunition autoloader, which will hold 22 rounds of up to five types of ready-to-fire rounds and will permit a rate of fire of 12 shots per minute. Another 20 rounds and their modular charges will be housed within a pressurised turret bustle whose temperature will be cryogenically controlled. The main gun, to have a combat range of 5.5km when firing FSAPDS kinetic-energy rounds, will have maximum elevation/depression angles of +20 degrees and -9 degrees. The Arjun Mk2 will share with its predecessor the same imported all-electric power traverse system (supplied by Germany&#8217;s ESW Extel Systems Wedel), which comprises the automatic elevating and traversing drives with semi-automatic back-up, direct gun-laying with electrical instruments control and manual control. The DFCS will include an independent commander&#8217;s panoramic sight incorporating a medium-range uncooled thermal imager, and the Sagem D&#233;fense S&#233;curit&#233;-built IRIS thermal camera of the gunner&#8217;s sight that can &#8216;see&#8217; at around 5.5km, recognise a target at 3.1km and identify targets at 2.5km. The gunner&#8217;s sight will incorporate an &#8216;auto tracker&#8217; &#8212; an optronic system based on image processing that will simultaneously track up to six moving targets. As the gunner&#8217;s sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis will take place. When the target moves, the 120mm gun and the gunner&#8217;s sight will get aligned with the target and will move automatically while keeping the target in focus. This is particularly good in cross-country terrain when the target is moving and the MBT might go through bumps or twists or turns for manoeuvring, but the &#8216;auto tracker&#8217; will not lose sight of the target. Presently, the Arjun Mk1 uses a &#8216;director mode&#8217; for track initiation. On the Arjun Mk2, the top mirror of the gunner&#8217;s sight will be independently stabilised, and a digital ballistics computer will evaluate the elevation of both the top mirror and the main gun, as well as the angle of the turret. There will be a continuous feeding of these parameters into the ballistics computer, which in turn will give electronic instructions to the all-electric gun-control system. Hence, the crosshairs of the gunner&#8217;s sight will be right in the middle of the target even in a cross-country environment. If, momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit will remain closed and the gunner will not be able to fire. The DFCS will receive all required meteorological data from IRDAM SA of Switzerland&#8217;s Model 2156B sensor that will measure wind speed, wind direction, air temperature and atmospheric pressure. All-terrain navigational accuracy will be provided by a fibre optic gyro-based autonomous land navigation system (ALNS) that can store more than 100 routes and 500 waypoints. The communications element of the Arjun Mk2&#8217;s vectronics suite will include a digital universal control harness duplex communications system for ensuring voice and data communications between the MBT commander, gunner and driver, and an AQ-6411 intercom system meant for inter-communications between crews of the host MBT and also with other MBT crews through the STARS V50WFF LVM-271 radio. Also using this radio will be a BEL-built battlespace management system (BMS), which will allow all friendly MBTs to share a common operating picture and give senior armoured corps commanders a comprehensive view of the battle space. It will also free up frontline MBT commanders from routine reporting tasks. The BMS will be capable of displaying relevant digital moving map data (in 2-D) and plotting of own position, will offer zooming, panning, fit-all, overlay and refresh modes, will plot the positions of friend or foe as well as mines, bunkers etc using different symbols, will generate path profiles, will send situation reports and receive operational order updates. The BMS will also be linked to the MBT&#8217;s on-board health and usage monitoring system (HUMS), an achievement that will significantly reduce the MBT&#8217;s operational logistics demands.

A Complete News Magazine on National Security


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Threads merged.

All Arjun News and discussion here please.


----------



## nitesh

shrivatsa said:


> Arjun Mk2 MBTs pre-production prototype to rollout by mid-2009
> 
> Unfazed and undeterred by the quality-control problems that have beset the series-production phase of the Arjun Mk1 main battle tank (MBT) at the assembly line of the ministry of defence-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi,
> 
> A Complete News Magazine on National Security



So this means the army is not cribbing about the TANK as such, also the so called defects are more to do with Avadi. Thats finally a good news after a very long time.


----------



## shrivatsa

The Arjun battle tank acquires a growing fan club


India's own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5,000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert.

During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the army's 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjun's endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.

The army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun.

The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby.

After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.

Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On June 29, 2006, the commander of the elite 31 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away (see picture).

That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun's firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun have been proved beyond doubt."

But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by the then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for "not conducting the trials properly". But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakur's brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.

In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts: "I've spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)&#8230; who have been testing the tank&#8230; I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun.

I said, you've driven this tank and you've driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I've found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank."

With new confidence, the Arjun's developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for "comparative trials", in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the army's T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.


----------



## nitesh

shrivatsa said:


> The Arjun battle tank acquires a growing fan club
> 
> 
> India's own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth.



Finally some good news for beleaguered program. But the shootout between different models is unnecessary. Army operates around 3000 tanks. and they ordered almost 1500 T-90. So rest can be Arjun. The shootout between two will put the morale down among tank crews.


----------



## shrivatsa

Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials



Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding "comparative trials", where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.

But the army &#8212; particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) &#8212; is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials.

Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.

DRDO sources say the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver. Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.

The DRDO's fears are grounded in experience. On July 28, 2005, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, "The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army."

But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4,900 crores. That despite the MoD's admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.

A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.

But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, "The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) is inducted in the army."

This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 8. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s.

The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now, the Arjun is ready but the army is not.

Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF's argument that the Arjun is a dud. The MoD wants comparative trials too. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, "The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert &#8230; and see which comes off best."

Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better.

But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical - and therefore subjective - dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.

The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun's development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun.

In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew - something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank - can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, "What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?"


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## nitesh

</TITLE> <meta name="keywords" content="" /> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript"> </SCRIPT> </HEAD> <BODY leftmargin=0 topmargin=0 > <table cellpadding = 0 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=780> <tr><td valign=top><SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript"> </SCRIPT> <link 
Ajai Shukla: Finding the right bullies
BROADSWORD
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi June 17, 2008, 4:47 IST
The unseemly squabbling between the army and the DRDO over the Arjun tank invites a wider debate on how India must shape its mechanised forces. This vital branch of any military launches attacks into an enemy country, its tanks, armoured carriers and airmobile forces sweeping into the opponent's heartland, dislocating his planning and breaking his will to fight. If it came to war with Pakistan, India's three "strike corps", as these mechanised formations are termed, would not dally at the border. Their objective would be the towns and cities along the Indus.


As Lt. Gen. BM Kapur (Retired), one of India's more flamboyant strike corps commanders, loved to declare, "My corps has no tasks on the territory of India."

The key player in these strike operations is the main battle tank  the MBT in military parlance  which, for India, is the Russian T-72 and T-90 tank. The "bully of the battlefield", as the MBT has been called, must be a multi-faceted fellow. It must be highly mobile on roads and cross-country; it must have a capable, computer-enhanced gun to dominate the battlefield; it must be strongly armoured to protect its crew; and it must be self-contained, carrying ammunition and fuel for days of battle deep inside enemy territory.

In the late 20th century India could get by with its Russian fleet. Those tanks were cheap, rugged, effective, and faced simpler threats. Pakistan's tank fleet was outdated, its air force was not getting additional F-16s from the US and JF-17s from China, and the Dragon himself was a relatively benign blip on the threat radar.

But now India's tank fleet must cater for a wider range of threats than the Pakistan border, where 58 out of the army's 59 tank regiments are currently deployed. The entire northeast of the country  an 11,000-kilometre border with China, Bangladesh and Myanmar is allotted just one regiment of 45 tanks.

Though the Russian T-72s and T-90s are too heavy for the riverine and mountainous northeast, the army has dragged its feet for decades in identifying and procuring a lighter tank. China is flexing its muscles over the so-called Finger Area in North Sikkim, an ideal deployment area for a detachment of Indian light tanks. But the long-standing proposal for acquiring a brigade (three regiments) of light tanks for northeast India is still in the seminar rooms of the army; it has not yet been sent on to the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

When asked why, the army's Director General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, responded with a terse written statement: "The current fleet of tanks in Mech(anised) Forces (sic) is well equipped to execute operations efficiently in all types of terrain i.e. deserts, canal and riverine terrain. We are studying the proposal for a lighter weight tank for other terrains, specifically in the NE (northeast). This of course is a futuristic requirement."

Light tanks are needed also for India's amphibious forces, which protect island territories like the Andaman and the Lakshadweep archipelagos and offshore assets like Bombay High. The Hyderabad-based 54 Infantry Division is earmarked for amphibious tasks; the Indian Navy has built landing ships for tanks; it has bought the INS Jalashwa (formerly the USS Trenton) from the United States. But it hasn't bought the light tanks that will be launched from these ships  an essential component of any amphibious force.

Light tanks are required also for airmobile operations. India has one of the world's very few militaries with strategic airlift capability, its giant IL-76 aircraft able to drop a brigade of paratroopers onto objectives far from India. In November 1988, when Tamil mercenaries invaded the Maldives, two Indian battalions were dropped from IL-76 aircraft to restore peace. They did what was asked but if a parachute force were to encounter serious fighting, they would need tank backup that isn't there today. The IL-76 can just about carry one Russian MBT, but it cannot para-drop it. A light tank, which could be air-transported and para-dropped, is a critical need.

A light tank is also needed against the growing threat of urban terrorism. Currently, India's military, police and paramilitary forces use a variety of improvised vehicles, with armour-plates welded on, when they need fire support for operations in towns or cities. Lives would be saved by a light tank, which can drive and manoeuvre in twisty streets and elevate its gun to fire at terrorists holed up in higher floors. A cleft turret fitted onto a light tank would give India this capability.

The military's inertia on the light tank is matched by its foot-dragging over the heavy Arjun MBT. Compared to the 42-ton T-72 and the 46-ton T-90, the muscular 58-ton Arjun is just the right bully for a battlefield where tank killing is an increasingly popular activity. Its Kanchan armour (named after Kanchanbagh, Hyderabad, where it was designed) adds weight; but provides reassuring protection against enemy aircraft, artillery, attack helicopters, tanks, missile carriers and shoulder-fired rocket launchers, all of which are seeking to make their day by destroying a tank.

While the weight of the Arjun would be a liability in the canal-crossed plains of Punjab, it would be transformed into an asset in the open deserts of southern Rajasthan, where one of India's strike corps invariably operates. Equipping that formation with the Arjun would dramatically increase its punch. Such a decision would also provide the tank's designers with a clear idea of what strengths they must build into future variations of the Arjun.


----------



## Interceptor

Is Arjun still go ahead or is it being avoided by the Indian Army.


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## vish

Interceptor said:


> Is Arjun still go ahead or is it being avoided by the Indian Army.



The IA is increasingly getting polarized on the Arjun issue.

It does look like as though the pro-Arjun faction is gaining strength day by day.

Arjun won't be ignored by the IA; the implications of such a move would be huge.

Plus, its a significant improvement over the T-90/72s that the IA is used to.


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## SU 30 MKI

vish said:


> The IA is increasingly getting polarized on the Arjun issue.
> 
> It does look like as though the pro-Arjun faction is gaining strength day by day.
> 
> Arjun won't be ignored by the IA; the implications of such a move would be huge.
> 
> Plus, its a significant improvement over the T-90/72s that the IA is used to.



Well I have few worlds with Army Insiders they have told me that Arjun is Very Good tank and in fact it is good accuracy while on move which not their in Russian Tanks and its Armour is very good but only disadvantage is that is heavy.

Most of the Problems is being rectified. But due to Russian lobby its getting delayed....They Dont that becasue they will loose Indan $$$$$


----------



## Interceptor

vish said:


> The IA is increasingly getting polarized on the Arjun issue.
> 
> It does look like as though the pro-Arjun faction is gaining strength day by day.
> 
> Arjun won't be ignored by the IA; the implications of such a move would be huge.
> 
> Plus, its a significant improvement over the T-90/72s that the IA is used to.



Some one should pick up the pieces and show some Advantages and Disadvantage, last year when I was debating on the Arjun, the DRDO was to induct it on full scale what is going on.


----------



## blain2

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...44,curpg-2.cms
*No more Arjuns for Indian Army*
5 Jul 2008, 1540 hrs IST,PTI

NEW DELHI: As doubts over viability of the three-decade-old Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) are being raised, the Army has indicated it would place no more orders than 124 already made to Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, sounding the death knell of the DRDO project.

"*Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT,*" Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj, Army Director General (Mechanised Infantry), said here.

Though Bharadwaj discounted suggestions that it would mean the end of DRDO's Arjun project that began in 1972, he did point out induction of more Arjun MBTs at this stage would only mean India lagging behind in the technological race in armoured fighting vehicles.

"Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for a technologically advanced, next generation warfare some two decades hence," Bhardwaj said on the sidelines of an interactive session with defence private industry at CII.

After 36 years into its design and development, Arjun had as recently as in December 2007 failed winter trials, as stated in a Parliamentary report. It is yet to go through crucial comparative trials with Russian tanks, a mandatory process before induction into Army.

With uncertainty looming over Arjun tanks, Army has already increased its orders for Russian T-90 tanks by another 330 last year, over and above the 1000 it had ordered, clearly indicating T-90s would be the MBT of Indian Army for the next decade.

Chennai-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) had last year handed over 14 Arjuns to the Army for trials, but they were returned with a list of defects in its fire control systems, inaccuracy of guns, low speeds in tactical areas such as deserts and inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius.

This summer too Army and the DRDO took out Arjuns for trials, but the results were yet to be made public. Meanwhile, the Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks, though reasons for the suspicion were not spelt out by Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh.

The DRDO's new project 'Tank-X' too did not find favour with the Army. "Tank-X is a hybrid of T-90 and T-72, which are both contemporary technology tanks. There is no point in having technologically obsolete tanks for warfare two decades hence," the DG (Mechanised Forces) said.

Bharadwaj also announced that the Army, along with CII, would organise a two-day international technology seminar on Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) here on July 22 and 23 to discuss global challenges in designing, developing and producing FMBT and FICV.

To be inaugurated by Defence Minister A K Antony and Rao Inderjit Singh, Bhardwaj said the seminar would debate the kind of MBT Army needed, considering that might of the military was judged by both deterrent and offensive capabilities of Mechanised Forces and on the quality and quantity of equipment.

"Time has come to reassess our requirements. We are at the threshold of formulating qualitative requirements of FMBT and FICV. This is the future, as it takes about a decade for completing the process of designing and being ready with a prototype of FMBT and FICV. It could take another 5 to 10 years to finally induct futuristic MBTs and ICVs into the forces," he said.

The meeting would also provide defence planners, end-users, scientists and both private and public defence manufacturers a holistic view of applicability of tanks, be they heavy, medium or light, and wheeled or tracked in modern warfare.

"Considering India's expanding strategic reach and widening global standing as a military power, future armoured vehicles should be capable of performing roles during out-of-area contingencies beyond its territorial boundaries," Bharadwaj said.

The meet would also try to provide defence industry an insight into Mechanised Forces' aspirations and try to gauge their capability to meet Army's future requirements.

Apart from looking at varying global perceptions on use of armoured vehicles, the seminar would identify critical emerging technologies in the field to meet Army's requirements of FMBT and FICV.

Already, seven foreign countries have confirmed their participation in the seminar including US, Israel, Russia, Germany, UK and France.


----------



## vish

What I do not understand is if the Arjun isn't the future, then what is? The one thousand odd T-90s?


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> *No more Arjuns for Indian Army*
> 5 Jul 2008, 1540 hrs IST,PTI
> 
> "Considering India's expanding strategic reach and widening global standing as a military power, future armoured vehicles should be capable of performing roles during out-of-area contingencies beyond its territorial boundaries," Bharadwaj said.



So finally Indian army is looking for postings outside India also.


----------



## cactuslily58

vish said:


> What I do not understand is if the Arjun isn't the future, then what is? The one thousand odd T-90s?



One generation has lived through the trauma of the Vijayanta..do we want to create another Vijayanta for to keep the next generation occupied ?

It must not be forced upon Cavalrymen unless they accept it.


----------



## vish

cactuslily58 said:


> One generation has lived through the trauma of the Vijayanta..do we want to create another Vijayanta for to keep the next generation occupied ?
> 
> It must not be forced upon Cavalrymen unless they accept it.



No offense sir, but why is it that the Army is rejecting the Arjun? I'm serious here for I do not know the answer... the news has been quiet contradictory and confusing.

I don't see logic here and hence my statement; I"ll be glad if anyone could clarify me doubt.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> No offense sir, but why is it that the Army is rejecting the Arjun? I'm serious here for I do not know the answer... the news has been quiet contradictory and confusing.
> 
> I don't see logic here and hence my statement; I"ll be glad if anyone could clarify me doubt.



Your point is correct, the news is very confusing, but overall it looks like army is thinking that till next decade T90 will fit in there doctrine according to the threats they will be facing. Another issue is that Army wants to bulk up the numbers. so 330 made in russia and 1000 built in India will suffice the needs. So, they might be thinking why not use the arjun experience in to building something new. Check these links, seems there is nothing new in not placing orders for more then 124 tanks. More of media twisting the news:


----------



## ejaz007

*Indian Army Will Not Order More Than 124 Arjun MBT*
Dated 6/7/2008

The Indian Army has indicated it would place no more orders than 124 already made to Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, sounding the death knell of the DRDO project. "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT," Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj, Army Director General (Mechanised Infantry), said here.

Though Bharadwaj discounted suggestions that it would mean the end of DRDO's Arjun project that began in 1972, he did point out induction of more Arjun MBTs at this stage would only mean India lagging behind in the technological race in armored fighting vehicles. "Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for a technologically advanced, next generation warfare some two decades hence," Bhardwaj said on the sidelines of an interactive session with defence private industry at CII.

After 36 years into its design and development, Arjun had as recently as in December 2007 failed winter trials, as stated in a Parliamentary report. It is yet to go through crucial comparative trials with Russian tanks, a mandatory process before induction into Army. With uncertainty looming over Arjun tanks, Army has already increased its orders for Russian T-90 tanks by another 330 last year, over and above the 1000 it had ordered, clearly indicating T-90s would be the MBT of Indian Army for the next decade.

Chennai-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) had last year handed over 14 Arjuns to the Army for trials, but they were returned with a list of defects in its fire control systems, inaccuracy of guns, low speeds in tactical areas such as deserts and inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius. This summer too Army and the DRDO took out Arjun MBTs for trials, but the results were yet to be made public. Meanwhile, the Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks, though reasons for the suspicion were not spelt out by Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh.
The DRDO's new project 'Tank-X' too did not find favor with the Army. "Tank-X is a hybrid of T-90 and T-72, which are both contemporary technology tanks. There is no point in having technologically obsolete tanks for warfare two decades hence," the DG (Mechanized Forces) said.

Bharadwaj also announced that the Army, along with CII, would organize a two-day international technology seminar on Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) here on July 22 and 23 to discuss global challenges in designing, developing and producing FMBT and FICV. To be inaugurated by Defence Minister A K Antony and Rao Inderjit Singh, Bhardwaj said the seminar would debate the kind of MBT Army needed, considering that might of the military was judged by both deterrent and offensive capabilities of Mechanized Forces and on the quality and quantity of equipment.

"Time has come to reassess our requirements. We are at the threshold of formulating qualitative requirements of FMBT and FICV. This is the future, as it takes about a decade for completing the process of designing and being ready with a prototype of FMBT and FICV. It could take another 5 to 10 years to finally induct futuristic MBTs and ICVs into the forces," he said. The meeting would also provide defence planners, end-users, scientists and both private and public defence manufacturers a holistic view of applicability of tanks, be they heavy, medium or light, and wheeled or tracked in modern warfare.

"Considering India's expanding strategic reach and widening global standing as a military power, future armored vehicles should be capable of performing roles during out-of-area contingencies beyond its territorial boundaries," Bharadwaj said. The meet would also try to provide defence industry an insight into Mechanized Forces' aspirations and try to gauge their capability to meet Army's future requirements.

Apart from looking at varying global perceptions on use of armored vehicles, the seminar would identify critical emerging technologies in the field to meet Army's requirements of FMBT and FICV. Already, seven foreign countries have confirmed their participation in the seminar including US, Israel, Russia, Germany, UK and France.

Indian Army Will Not Order More Than 124 Arjun MBT | India Defence


----------



## nitesh

looks like we will se more twists and turns in Arjun saga, it is not going to end soon.

LiveFist: Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT

MONDAY, JULY 07, 2008

Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
It's been a sombre week for the Arjun main battle tank. Last week, the Army's DG Mechanised Forces Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj said that the Army would place no further orders beyond the 124 already indented for with the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. That alone has been the cherry on top for a morbid quarter for the tank programme. The Army is still stubbornly resistant to comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 and T-72. And earlier this year, the tank's gearbox failed during accelerated usage cum reliability trials at Pokhran. It now appears that the DRDO has lost faith in the Army as well.

According to my sources at Avadi, the CVRDE is now scouting for a "third party quality assurance agency" to undertake the inspection and quality assurance of the manufacture of the running gear, hydro-pneumatic suspension and track adjuster, manufactured by BEML, Kirloskar Pneumatic Company (KPC) Limited and KGF respectively.

Currently, CVRDE is the "inspecting authority" of all tanks produced by HVF. But it appears convinced that an outside certificate of approval is now necessary as a last ditch effort to persuade an obstinate Army. The agency will be identified by next month following a tender process -- the agency can be Indian or foreign.

The uproar over Arjun continues limitlessly, but one thing is clear. There is still no clear logic from the Army about why it refuses to conduct the promised comparative trials of the Arjun with the two Russian types. Enough has been said about the rationale, so I won't say more, though the clamour has gotten louder, and it's making the Army (or at least some of its generals) look like it's/they've got something to hide.


----------



## cactuslily58

nitesh said:


> looks like we will se more twists and turns in Arjun saga, it is not going to end soon.
> 
> LiveFist: Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
> 
> MONDAY, JULY 07, 2008
> 
> Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
> It's been a sombre week for the Arjun main battle tank. Last week, the Army's DG Mechanised Forces Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj said that the Army would place no further orders beyond the 124 already indented for with the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. That alone has been the cherry on top for a morbid quarter for the tank programme. The Army is still stubbornly resistant to comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 and T-72. And earlier this year, the tank's gearbox failed during accelerated usage cum reliability trials at Pokhran. It now appears that the DRDO has lost faith in the Army as well.
> 
> According to my sources at Avadi, the CVRDE is now scouting for a "third party quality assurance agency" to undertake the inspection and quality assurance of the manufacture of the running gear, hydro-pneumatic suspension and track adjuster, manufactured by BEML, Kirloskar Pneumatic Company (KPC) Limited and KGF respectively.
> 
> Currently, CVRDE is the "inspecting authority" of all tanks produced by HVF. But it appears convinced that an outside certificate of approval is now necessary as a last ditch effort to persuade an obstinate Army. The agency will be identified by next month following a tender process -- the agency can be Indian or foreign.
> 
> The uproar over Arjun continues limitlessly, but one thing is clear. There is still no clear logic from the Army about why it refuses to conduct the promised comparative trials of the Arjun with the two Russian types. Enough has been said about the rationale, so I won't say more, though the clamour has gotten louder, and it's making the Army (or at least some of its generals) look like it's/they've got something to hide.




Who is the author of these pearls of wisdom ?


----------



## nitesh

cactuslily58 said:


> Who is the author of these pearls of wisdom ?



shiv aroor


----------



## cactuslily58

nitesh said:


> looks like we will se more twists and turns in Arjun saga, it is not going to end soon.
> 
> LiveFist: Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
> 
> MONDAY, JULY 07, 2008
> 
> Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
> It's been a sombre week for the Arjun main battle tank. Last week, the Army's DG Mechanised Forces Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj said that the Army would place no further orders beyond the 124 already indented for with the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. That alone has been the cherry on top for a morbid quarter for the tank programme. The Army is still stubbornly resistant to comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 and T-72. And earlier this year, the tank's gearbox failed during accelerated usage cum reliability trials at Pokhran. It now appears that the DRDO has lost faith in the Army as well.
> 
> According to my sources at Avadi, the CVRDE is now scouting for a "third party quality assurance agency" to undertake the inspection and quality assurance of the manufacture of the running gear, hydro-pneumatic suspension and track adjuster, manufactured by BEML, Kirloskar Pneumatic Company (KPC) Limited and KGF respectively.
> 
> Currently, CVRDE is the "inspecting authority" of all tanks produced by HVF. But it appears convinced that an outside certificate of approval is now necessary as a last ditch effort to persuade an obstinate Army. The agency will be identified by next month following a tender process -- the agency can be Indian or foreign.
> 
> The uproar over Arjun continues limitlessly, but one thing is clear. There is still no clear logic from the Army about why it refuses to conduct the promised comparative trials of the Arjun with the two Russian types. Enough has been said about the rationale, *so I won't say more, though the clamour has gotten louder, and it's making the Army (or at least some of its generals) look like it's/they've got something to hide.*



The Boffins are trying to sell a lemon. The stand taken by the army is correct.


----------



## nitesh

cactuslily58 said:


> The Boffins are trying to sell a lemon. The stand taken by the army is correct.



Both sides are correct on there sides. But agree with you as the end user is army and if they are not satisfied in the current form, better start working on MarkII as they are not averse of that idea. So overall the project is not a failure, as it is being portrayed by media. Or use the expertise developed with some international partner to make a new generation of tank. may be we will have some clear idea after 23rd july.


----------



## IceCold

Just a question here. If army is unwilling to accept any more Arjuns, why does DRDO forces them too. I mean they can export the tank in the international market and if DRDO is able to satisfy its international customers, it will not only generate valuable amount of revenue for the DRDO to continue its research but also it will prove the indian army wrong in their decision about not inducting the tank in large numbers.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Just a question here. If army is unwilling to accept any more Arjuns, why does DRDO forces them too. I mean they can export the tank in the international market and if DRDO is able to satisfy its international customers, it will not only generate valuable amount of revenue for the DRDO to continue its research but also it will prove the indian army wrong in their decision about not inducting the tank in large numbers.



You have a point, but without domestic orders it will be very tough to convince others to buy it.


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## nitesh

Some words from DRDO side, but Army top brass not having experience on tank battle? I think this was unnecessary

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

ank tussle hots up 
Induct 500 Arjuns: DRDO 
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, July 8

The ongoing tussle over inducting Arjun tank in the Indian Army has become a hot topic of discussion in the past few days. After the director general Mechanised Infantry, Lt-Gen Dalip Bharadwaj, was quoted in the media saying that the Army would not buy more than 124 Arjun tanks, *the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has reportedly told defence minister A.K. Antony that at least 500 such tanks should be manufactured and inducted.*

Senior functionaries of the DRDO have briefed the minister that capacity exists to manufacturing 500 tanks at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi. The Army is to decide on it next set of requirements. The balance is tilted in favour of the Russian tank T-90.

*Rather the DRDO has informed that 70 tanks are ready for delivery at the Avadi plant and the Army contracted number of 124 tanks would be met in the next six months. Hundreds of crores of rupees have been invested in building capacities at the Avadi plant and more tanks should be purchased. Since the tanks have shaped up very well in the just concluded summer trials there is no reason why more should not be inducted, the DRDO is learnt to have told Antony in the past few days.*

*Notably, the DRDO&#8217;s claim that Arjun was a good tank has been buffered by a personal letter, written by the retired Lieutenant General to the defence minister. The Chandigarh-based former Army officer has alleged that the Army was opposing the Arjun tank, as most of the top brass of the Army did not have much experience in a tank battles.*

Sources said the DRDO had reacted sharply to the Army officers assertion in the media on the status of the Arjun tank and briefed the defence minister. *Rather a note is being put up by the DRDO on how the tanks fared in the just concluded trials and how new systems and technologies have been incorporated.* Five discrepancies had been pointed out during the winter trials in 2007 that were about the gearbox, the firing accuracy and quality control over some equipment.

It may be mentioned that the DRDO has been gunning for comparative trial between the Arjun and the Russian made T-90 tanks.

The defence minister and the ministry of defence officials are keen that such comparison be conducted. The DRDO has also reportedly informed the minister that Arjun is a contemporary tank and is far superior to T-54, T-55 and T-72 tanks used by the Army in the past.


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## cactuslily58

This is what marketing is all about...selling a lemon .


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## vish

cactuslily58 said:


> This is what marketing is all about...selling a lemon .




Sir,
Sorry to bother, but why do you say that the Arjun is a lemon?


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## cactuslily58

vish said:


> Sir,
> Sorry to bother, but why do you say that the Arjun is a lemon?



Not here....


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## vish

cactuslily58 said:


> Not here....



Sir,

Is there any which way we can communicate otherwise?

Rather, Sir, am I allowed to know what you know?

Sorry if I'm intruding; it is just that my curiosity in this matter is somewhat very high.


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## nitesh

cactuslily58 said:


> This is what marketing is all about...selling a lemon .



Can you please back up your point with some sort of technical info, it will be good.


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## Goodperson

vish said:


> Sir,
> 
> Is there any which way we can communicate otherwise?
> 
> Rather, Sir, am I allowed to know what you know?
> 
> Sorry if I'm intruding; it is just that my curiosity in this matter is somewhat very high.



vish, Even I think DRDO was not able to market Arjun well, Even if Army may have inclination towards Russian tanks but glitches in Arjun have not helped either. I remember some glitches were reported few years back, But why were the problems not sorted out ? Now there were even reports of sabotage. But it is not going to help professional army.

Still I think Arjun is quite capable tank even zraver (tank expert from Israel) seconded the same, DRDO should sort out issues if any ASAP trials cannot go on and on.


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## Always Neutral

Goodperson said:


> vish, Even I think DRDO was not able to market Arjun well, Even if Army may have inclination towards Russian tanks but glitches in Arjun have not helped either. I remember some glitches were reported few years back, But why were the problems not sorted out ? Now there were even reports of sabotage. But it is not going to help professional army.
> 
> Still I think Arjun is quite capable tank even zraver (tank expert from Israel) seconded the same, DRDO should sort out issues if any ASAP trials cannot go on and on.



Dear GP,

Actually its a decent Tank from a development point of view and lot of valuable lessons have been probably been learnt while building it but no armed forces should be forced to accept something which they have limited utility for. 

It will be good to see where these 124 tanks are deployed. Maybe on the eastern borders or for peace keeping missions ?

Regards


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## fatman17

Jane's Login

_The End Of The Line For Arjun..._

Indian Army abandons plans to order more Arjuns

Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent - New Delhi

Key Points
No Arjun main battle tanks will be built beyond the 124 already on order

The Indian army is exploring alternatives to meet its requirement for next-generation warfare


The Indian army has confirmed that it will not place additional orders for the locally designed Arjun main battle tank (MBT) beyond the 124 already under construction. 

General Dalip Bhardwaj, the army's director general of mechanised infantry, said on 5 July that "the army will place no more orders for the Arjun". While the Arjun "might be used in the next decade or so", he added that it was not suitable "for next-generation warfare". "The army ... is looking 20 to 25 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT," he said. 

The Indian Ministry of Defence ordered 124 Arjuns in 2000 - which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been developing since 1972 - to be built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in southern India. These were meant to be delivered by 2009 but will not be completed on time. 

Gen Bhardwaj was echoing comments made by army chief General Deepak Kapoor that the Arjun was not of "international quality" after the tank performed badly in winter trials in December 2007. 

The army, along with the Confederation of Indian Industry, is now organising a two-day seminar to be held later in July on 'Future Main Battle Tanks and Future Infantry Combat Vehicles' to discuss global challenges in designing, developing and producing these platforms. Participants from France, Germany, Israel, the UK and the US are expected to attend. 

Gen Bhardwaj also rejected the DRDO's hybrid 48-ton 'Tank-EX': an amalgam of the Arjun's turret with a locally built T72M1 chassis. 

Consistent development delays and cost overruns with the Arjun resulted in India importing 310 T-90S tanks in 2001 and agreeing in November 2007 to buy 347 more and build a further 1,000 locally under licence. The army is also upgrading its T-72M1 fleet. 

Separately, the army has issued a request for information for integrating an air-conditioning system alongside a supporting auxiliary power unit in its T-90S tanks, which have suffered breakdowns in their fire-control systems in the desert heat. Official sources said attempts by various overseas and local engineering companies to air condition the T-90S had not worked. 

*The Indian army has effectively killed the Arjun main battle tank project*


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## M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY]

ARJUN TANK IS NOT DANGEROUS FOR PAKISTAN.


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## Keysersoze

M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY];173002 said:


> ARJUN TANK IS NOT DANGEROUS FOR PAKISTAN.



CAPS off and more substance to your posts please

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## M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY]

OK, ARJUN Tank is not better for india.Pakistani alkhalid tank breaks down arjun tank.


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## Keysersoze

M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY];173017 said:


> OK, ARJUN Tank is not better for india.Pakistani alkhalid tank breaks down arjun tank.



Ok. Now some more substance to back up your claims please.


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## ejaz007

*DRDO tries to ram Arjun tanks down Army throat*
12 Jul 2008, 0051 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN 

NEW DELHI: A war has erupted in the Indian defence establishment over the indigenous Arjun main-battle tank (MBT), once again. After Army made it quite clear it did not want more than the 124 Arjuns already ordered, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has fired a retaliatory salvo. 

Seeking the government's intervention to ensure "indigenous efforts" are "appropriately rewarded", DRDO says Army should order a minimum of 500 Arjuns to stabilise production lines and pave the way for the development of a "futuristic" MBT. 

"We are working on the development of a futuristic Mark-II MBT with suitable technological upgrades, which can be introduced later after the completion of production of at least 500 Arjuns of the present version," said a DRDO official. 

Nothing doing, responds Army. "Our requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 Russian-origin T-90S tanks and 124 Arjuns," said a senior officer. 

After getting 310 T-90S tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, India signed a Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia last November to import another 347 T-90S tanks. The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, in turn, has also begun the licensed manufacture of another 1,000 T-90S tanks. 

Moreover, the ongoing upgradation of 692 T-72 tanks to "combat-improved Ajeya standards", of which 415 have already been delivered, will add more punch to India's armoured might. 

"So, we have already catered for adequate numbers. We are now looking 20 years ahead and want DRDO to come up with a next-generation MBT. We are not against indigenous efforts...let DRDO make something better," said the officer. 

DRDO, however, is crying foul over moves to demand "higher performance" from the 58.5-tonne Arjuns, which are "superior" to even the 46.5-tonne T-90s in some respects like its "excellent weight-to-power ratio and very accurate firepower on the move". 

With 64 of the 124 Arjuns already ready for delivery, DRDO holds that the Army is shying away from "comparative trials" between them and the T-90S tanks, which interestingly enough have been christened "Bhishma". 

While acknowledging that the Arjun project was sanctioned as far back as in 1974 at a cost of Rs 15.50 crore, which zoomed up to Rs 300 crore by 1995, DRDO says one of the main reasons for the delay was the frequently changing "qualitative requirements" of the Army. 

"Development of tanks of similar capabilities in a foreign country will cost 10 times the development cost we have incurred in India. The present cost of one Arjun is Rs 16.80 crore, while it is around Rs 12 crore for the T-90S. Arjun's cost compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs, which cost Rs 17 crore to Rs 24 crore," said a DRDO official. 

Admitting there are "teething problems in productionization", DRDO says the process will "mature and stabilize" only after 200 to 300 tanks have actually been produced. "Consequently, we need patronage in terms of more orders for Arjuns. Since it's an indigenous tank, it will be all the more easier to bring upgrades and use it as a viable platform for futuristic development," he said. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

Thank god they are trying to ram through army throat and not through ***.


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## GHATAK

http://bp1.blogger.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/SAlQaGnK_9I/AAAAAAAAAJA/Z0C1Na0nxvs/s1600-h/P5200018.JPG


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## HAIDER

Indias indigenous Arjun tank project began in 1974, and originally aimed to replace the Russian T-54 and T-72 tanks which made up the bulk of that countrys armored firepower. As has often been the case in India, its DRDO government weapons development agency sought an entirely made in India solution, even though this would require major advances on a number of fronts for Indian industry. As has often been the case in India, the result was a long and checkered history filled with development delays, performance issues, mid-project specifications changes by Indias military, and the eventual purchase of both foreign substitutions within the project (now 58% of the tanks cost) and foreign competitors from outside it (the T-90S).

As of July 2008, the 58.5 tonne Arjun tank still hasnt been fielded with the Indian Army. In contrast, Pakistans much more time-limited, scope-limited, and budget conscious approach in developing and successfully fielding its T-80UD Al-Khalid tank is often cited by Arjuns detractors.

Now reports from India indicate that the Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of its future force, despite that tanks performance issues in hot weather. At the same time, the Indian Army wants to cap production of indigenous Arjun tanks
Production of the Arjun will be capped at the already-committed total of 124 vehicles. Instead, development will begin on a new next-generation tank, which will be able to serve the Indian Army over the next 20-30 years.

Opinion in India appears to be sharply split. Many observers are citing this as the final failure that will close the book on a failed project. Other are noting the problems with the T-90s, and the Armys refusal to conduct side-by-side tests, alongside recent test successes that are earning the Arun some military fans.

DRDO has made allegation of sabotage involving the Arjuns engine, and insists that a 500 vehicle order will give it the volume needed to iron out all production difficulties and provide a platform for future development. In contrast, the Armys plan calls for 1,657 T-90S Bhishma tanks at about 12 crore (currently $2.78 million) each if prices remain stable, about 1,000 of which are slated to be built in India. They will be joined by just 124 Arjuns at about 16.8 crore (currently $3.92 million) each, as well as 692 older T-72 tanks upgraded to the T-72M1 Ajeya standard.

See also: Janes | Times of India | Indian Business Standard (pro) | Hindustan Times | domain-B | Thaindian News | Thaindian News (re: sabotage) |
Business Standard (April, pro) | Rediff (April, pro).
India Plans to Cap Arjun Tank Production

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## GHATAK

No other country in the world is inducting futuristic tanks that would last for 20 years.
I really dont understand what the Indian meahanised forces are expecting ?

Btw, Arjun and Al-khalid are completely in a differnt class and cannot be compaired.
Al-khalid and T-90 can be compaired.

In desert warware, Arjun is more lethal than T-90.
I think even if IA orders 300 Arjuns, CVRDE can come up with Arjun Mark II by then and then continue with the production of Mark II tanks.

Take Dhruv, initially it had lot of problems, but now production lines have stablized.


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## GHATAK

Interesting Article..must read for those interested in Arjun.

The weight of the Arjun MBT is incidental to the Indian Army General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR). Arjun Tank weight arises due to the systems and protection levels as monitored by the Vice Chiefs of Army Staff right from the project inception. Since Arjun Tank project was initiated to match the current western MBT&#8217;s, naturally, the Arjun MBT weight will also match them.

Some senior Indian army officers have the opinion that the Arjun is too heavy for bridges on Indian western border and for the bridging equipment held by the Indian Army Corps of Engineers. We need to look at the Arjun MBT weight issue in a broader perspective, at the entirety of reasons and implications. It has to be analyzed based on tactical and strategic mobility of the Arjun Tank.

India busted the myth of the Patton&#8217;s in 1965, with Centurions Mk VII which weighed close to 52t. In 35 years gone by, Indian infrastructural woes has caught up with Arjun Tanks too, in addition to not being able to run heavier cost efficient big trucks on the roads and bridges. In comparission to Centurions Mk VII, the Arjun Tank is a mere 7 ton heavier. As the China builds &#8220;otherwise&#8221; impossible rail and road networks on Indian border to counter a future threat, India has not bothered to make infrastructural improvements to take on current threats.

The Arjun MBT is the heaviest tank in our inventory, but that is not a reflection of its agility and gradability. Being powered with a 1400 HP engine, its HP / t ratio is 23.9 which is substantially better than 20.4 of the BMP which is its combat support. 

Arjun MBT has a bigger track-print, hence, its Nominal Ground Pressure is only 0.84 kg/cm2 which compares well with other MBTs of the world . Further, with a combination of low NGP and high power / weight ratio, it has commendable going ability. The proof being Arjun MBT crossing the Ravi at Lassian, without any engineer support, whatsoever and it has crossed numerous patches of marshy terrain which are marked &#8216;non-tankable&#8217; in going maps of the Gurdaspur-Pathankot sector.

MBT Arjun is broader and heavier than other tanks in our fleet, resulting in special, but not insurmountable, difficulties in transportation. During the last 15 years, various prototypes of Arjun MBT has been moved for trials to various sectors, by both, rail and road, by existing means of transportation, albeit with adhoc expedients, but without facing any serious difficulties.

The existing BWTA wagons have pay load capacity of 60+ tons ; the Arjun weighs 58.5 tons. The only issue is that the width of the tank is more than that of the flat and so, the tracks protrude on both sides. A six inch wooden sleepers when placed on the floor of the wagons before loading the Arjun MBT ensures that the tank tracks move over adjacent platforms without fouling with them. With this arrangement Arjun MBT&#8217;s were moved as class &#8216;A&#8217; ODC on Chennai-Delhi, Delhi-Suratgarh, Delhi-Jaiselmer, Chennai-Balasore and Balasore-Delhi lines, on several occasions.

In addition, Ministry of Railways, RDSO, Lucknow were approached in 1992 to conduct a feasibility study for rail transportation of MBT Arjun. The study was based on a two pronged approach i.e. design of a new wagon and modification of existing BWTA wagon. The feasibility report was submitted along with all-India broad gauge railway maps showing sectors where the loaded wagon could move as class &#8216;A&#8217; ODC and the empty wagon could be run as non-ODC. In consonance, the Army HQ, Q Move (Rail) approved both proposals. The RITES / Texmaco team has delivered prototypes of the new wagon for field trials in 2006, it has been proposed that the case for modification to existing BWTA wagons be foreclosed because the population of the new rail wagons can comfortably match the production schedule of the Arjun MBT.

On a number of occasions, the Arjuns has been ferried over long distances, on BEML P-80 trailers towed by Tatra Tractors. Of course, in this case also, the tracks of the tank protrude on either side of the P-80 mount, but that is so with even other tanks like T-90S and T-72&#8217;s in Indian Army fleet.

In December 1994 the DGST sent a copy of their Draft GSQR 636 for a 65 ton trailer to BEML Bangalore who, in turn, have issued their specification for the new trailer which is to be towed by BEML-Tatra T815 VTI 8&#215;8 tractor which is already in service.

CVRDE has successfully designed and proven a scissors type 20m, cl 60 BLT (christened Kartik) on the Vijayanta chassis. Another scissors type bridge layer of MLC 70 has been built on the T-72 hull and this also spans 20m. The latest on the anvil is the Arjun BLT with a sliding MLC 70 bridge and a span of 24m. That constitutes substantial initiative and homework on the part of DRDO for trafficability of the Arjun and any other heavy vehicles / equipment. 

It is true that assault bridging equipment are scarce but are a number of bridging equipment over which Arjuns can traverse without risk. These include the PMP / PMS, MGB, MLAB, Sarvatra, CEASE (60) and the KM (wet type).

The issue of &#8220;Civil Bridges Over Defence Oriented Canals&#8221; is a painfull episode for the simple reason that, when India built &#8216;defence oriented canals&#8217;, we ought to have also planned &#8216;defence oriented bridges&#8217; on them. Alternatively, we should have upgraded them in requisite sectors which, in any case, is imperative now. It would be quixotic to propose a solution by seeking reduction of the weight of the Arjun to suit vintage bridges!

There have been proposals of purning the Arjun MBT weight. Even Indian Army&#8217;s opinion is divided over this new, trivial issue which may be referred, perhaps more aptly, as a &#8216;non-issue&#8217;. Yet, in the din which accrues from the gambit of dissent and the consequent &#8216;unfounded fear of non-acceptance&#8217;, panic-driven designers and a section of supporting Users have jointly undertaken a weight reduction exercise ! 

Several areas of the tank have been identified and targeted for reductions ranging from a couple of hundred kgs to just a few hundred grams! In ultimate judgement, if the cumulative loss is not going to change the bridge classification of the Arjun, the whole effort will have been rendered futile. All attempts at weight reduction must be made conditional, in that, there will be no trade-offs with some other parameters such as levels of protection, structural strength, life expectancy of alternate materials and the ease of handling and maintenance.

The Arjun excels the specifics for self-propulsion stated in the GSQR. As for transportation and bridging are concerned, no one in the world designs tanks to suit these means. Instead, civil and military bridges, and the means of rail / road transportation are upgraded to suit new tanks. If Indian Army has problems with the bridges on the defensive canals or assault bridging equipment, its Indian Army&#8217;s fault.

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## Myth_buster_1

GHATAK said:


> No other country in the world is inducting futuristic tanks that would last for 20 years.
> I really dont understand what the Indian meahanised forces are expecting ?
> 
> Btw, Arjun and Al-khalid are completely in a differnt class and cannot be compaired.
> Al-khalid and T-90 can be compaired.
> 
> In desert warware, Arjun is more lethal than T-90.
> I think even if IA orders 300 Arjuns, CVRDE can come up with Arjun Mark II by then and then continue with the production of Mark II tanks.
> 
> Take Dhruv, initially it had lot of problems, but now production lines have stablized.



Aurjun is indeed a good concept on papers...
failed in both 2007-08 winter-summer trails... same engine brake down problem... chipping in main barrel gun.. low accuracy etc... not my words but your army's report..

by the time Arjunk II shows up on drawing board... AK II would be inducted in big numbers... joint -pak-turk venture.... with of course western inputs..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> Aurjun is indeed a good concept on papers...
> failed in both 2007-08 winter-summer trails... same engine brake down problem... chipping in main barrel gun.. low accuracy etc... not my words but your army's report..
> 
> by the time Arjunk II shows up on drawing board... AK II would be inducted in big numbers... joint -pak-turk venture.... with of course western inputs..



You must have read the summer trial report also na, because these are the latest trials.


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## Keysersoze

Can someone actually tell me the numbers inducted? I know there are 15 pre-production models. How many are ACTUALLY in use?


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## GHATAK

23march said:


> Aurjun is indeed a good concept on papers...
> failed in both 2007-08 winter-summer trails... same engine brake down problem... chipping in main barrel gun.. low accuracy etc... not my words but your army's report..
> 
> by the time Arjunk II shows up on drawing board... AK II would be inducted in big numbers... joint -pak-turk venture.... with of course western inputs..



Not inducting Arjun does not mean that Indian Army is not equiped with the latest tech. 

pak al-khalids will have to face T-90 in the battle and not Arjun- I hope you have this in the back of your mind while you are so excited about arjun.


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## nitesh

When this arjun saga will end 
» Indian Army rejects joint assessment of indigenous main battle tank - Thaindian News

July 20th, 2008 - 2:03 pm ICT by IANS - Email This Post Email This Post

By Ritu Sharma
New Delhi, July 20 (IANS) 

*In a desperate bid to save the main battle tank (MBT) Arjun it has developed, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had suggested a joint assessment of the vehicle with the Indian Army to keep the project alive but this has been summarily rejected by the army. The army is also ambiguous on a suggestion by the DRDO that the tank be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 MBTs the army currently operates.*

&#8220;Following the army&#8217;s adverse report on the tanks after winter trials last year, the DRDO had suggested a joint assessment be conducted but the army refused this outright,&#8221; a defence ministry official told IANS.

On its part, the Indian Army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for 5 to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this year that the Arjun, which has been in development for the last 36 years, failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert last year. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects.

These included a deficient engine and fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank&#8217;s inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius.

Allegations of &#8220;sabotage&#8221; had surfaced after the winter trials.

&#8220;Following these reports, the DRDO sought a joint trial of Arjun and the T-90, but the army has not taken a clear stand on this,&#8221; the official said.

Drawing a comparison between the two tanks, DRDO says Arjun has a greater power-to-weight ratio, a hydro-pneumatic suspension for a more comfortable ride, a stable platform to fire on the move, and a superior fire control system.

&#8220;The Arjun costs Rs.168 million while the T-90 costs around Rs.120 million. But then, the Arjun compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs of its class that cost in the range of Rs.170 to 240 million,&#8221; a DRDO official said.

Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh has also hinted at a conspiracy to &#8220;sabotage&#8221; the Arjun tank.

&#8220;The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined. The German engines fitted in the tanks were performing well for the past 15 years. I wonder what has happened to them overnight,&#8221; Singh had said in April, while commenting on the army&#8217;s assessment after the tank&#8217;s winter trials.

On its part, the army has rejected any suggestions of sabotage.

Arjun was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBTs that were first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan&#8217;s decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, near Chennai. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.

With the development of the Arjun delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy 330 more T-90s.


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## JK!

On wikipedia there is a picture of the Abhay IFV what is the status of that project?


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## nitesh

JK! said:


> On wikipedia there is a picture of the Abhay IFV what is the status of that project?



Abhay is mainly to replace BMP1, info about abhaj is here: Abhay Infantry Fighting Vehicle

Now IA is looking for FICV, check it:
BATTLESPACE - In this issue

INDIA TO DEVELOP FUTURE COMBAT VEHICLE TO REPLACE BMP-2
By Bulbul Singh

13 May 08. After successful development of the Infantry Combat Vehicle Abhay, India has decided to develop a Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) that it will replace the Russian-made BMP-2 combat vehicles with the Indian Army.

The FICV is being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, DRDO. A senior DRDO scientist said that the *broad specifications of the FICA include: Combat weight less than 20 tones, Power-to-weight ratio 25:1 hp/t, Amphibious capability, Potent fire power including 3rd Gen fire & forget Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Main gun firing (Armored Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot) APFSDS and HE ammunition, directed energy weapon, Automatic Grenade Launcher and co-axial machine gun.*
*In addition the FICV will also have an IFDSS (Integrated fire detection and suppression system), Stealth features, Battle Field Management System and IFF and Defensive Aids Suite to protect against laser/thermal/radar guided munitions.

The FICV will also perform target acquisition, tracking, data, computation, and engagement control functions, primarily using electronic means assisted by electromechanical devices. Besides, it will provide fire-on-the-move, operate in various modes and will have dual-control through gunner and commander joysticks with override facility to commander.

The FICV will eventually replace the BMP-2 fleet. The Indian Army is presently equipped with around 1600 BMP-2 ICVs of Russian origin of 1980s Vintage.

To fill the technological gap of new generation the Programme 'ABHAY' was launched, to develop an Infantry Combat Vehicle as a technology demonstrator, incorporating a blend of state-of-the-art technologies with impressive fire power, excellent mobility and high degree of protection.

The programme commenced in 1998 and the Infantry Combat Vehicle has completed all tests as a technology demonstrator. Following the success of the Abhay technology demonstrator, DRDO has embarked upon a program to produce the FICV, still unnamed, adding that the FICV will eventually be based on the Abhay technical parameters.

The Abhay vehicle has a 550hp power pack with fully automatic transmission. Better ride comfort, exceptional cross country ride performance has been achieved by advance running gear system with hydrogas suspension. The composite armored hull and turret provides all round protection against small arms and frontal protection against 30 mm cannon. Abhay is equipped with 40mm cannon with twin missile launcher system.

The Indian army has already decided to procure the FICV engines from overseas. The new engine should be able to generate 350 to 380hp in object condition, easy to maintain and have long life. The new engine should be able to operate up to an ambient temperature of 30 degree Celsius to+ 55 degree Celsius.* The engine life should not be below 600 hours or 2250 kilometres and it should be able to operate in all types of terrain and weather conditions. Its weight should be less than 900 kilograms, said an Indian Army official.


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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : India, Russia plan to build futuristic MBT

India, Russia plan to build futuristic MBT

Vladimir Radyuhin

MOSCOW: Encouraged by the remarkable success of their pilot co-development defence project, the Brahmos missile, India and Russia are planning to design and build a futuristic main battle tank.

Defence industry experts will discuss the new project when a delegation of the Russian Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) tank-building factory visits India this week to participate in an international seminar on the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) organised by the Army along with the Confederation of Indian Industry.

*The two sides have already had preliminary discussions on the issue, according to UVZ Director General Nikolai Malykh.*

&#8220;We put forward this idea [of a joint tank project] at the turn of the 21st century,&#8221; he told journalists in Moscow. &#8220;The Indian side has now come up with a similar proposal. We will take the first step when our experts go to India to attend a conference on the future tank and prospects for the tank-building industry.&#8221;

&#8220;The new tank will consolidate India&#8217;s edge over the Pakistani Army armed with Ukraine&#8217;s potent T-80 MBT and the Al-Khalid MBT built jointly with China and Ukraine,&#8221; Ruslan Pukhov, Director, Centre for Analysis and Technologies, said.

&#8220;Russia&#8217;s Uralvagonzavod would be the best partner for India in designing and building the new tank given a long history of its cooperation with the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi in the production of T-72 and T-90S MBTs.&#8221;

India has purchased over 1,600 T-90S MBTs built by the UVZ of which 1,000 will be manufactured at the Avadi plant.

The Indo-Russian MBT is likely to incorporate the best features of prototype tanks developed at Russia&#8217;s leading tank-building plants &#8212; UVZ and Omsk Transport Machine-Building Plant &#8212; which are now being merged into a single corporation.

According to the Moscow Defence Brief magazine, the new tank will mark a great step forward in armour technology. *It will feature higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a low silhouette. An armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader.*

*The crew will be provided with a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and will enjoy a smoother ride thanks to a new hydro-pneumatic suspension.*

*The new tank is likely to have a new main gun of up to 152 mm calibre and a new hunter-killer fire control system with target acquisition in optical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrums that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander, the Moscow Defence Brief said.*


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## nitesh

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=591056
India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks

NEW DELHI, JULY 22 (PTI)
To keep up with the trend amongst major powers, Indian army today set in motion the process of building a futuristic main battle tank (MBT), which will be inducted post 2020.

Army is visualising that the future tanks could be network operated sans the crew and has given the nod for framing general qualitative staff requirements (GQSR) for such a mean machine.

Plans for going in for such smart tanks and infantry combat vehicles were unveiled today at an international seminar on future MBTs, which was attended by the Defence Minister A K Antony and Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor.

"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation.

Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank but, at the same time, did not rule out the possibility of a "collaborative effort on technology sharing basis".

Antony was not forthcoming on whether plans to develop a new tank would sound a death knell for the country's maiden effort in producing Arjun main battle tank.

Though the Government has given the green signal for commercial production and induction of 124 Arjun tanks, the indegenious weapon platform is yet to be inducted into the army. They have to pass the final comparative trials with Russian tanks.

Asked whether more Arjun tanks would be inducted into army armoured formations said, Antony said: "Let us await the full rolling out of the 124 sanctioned tanks".

At the seminar, Nikolai Malykh, Director General of Russia's biggest tank Producer Uralvagonzavod, said India and Russia were mulling the joint development of a futuristic 'smart' battle tank, featuring higher speed and better firepower.

Malykh said preliminary discussions have already taken place and UVZ experts will be coming to India to carry forward the issue on the margins of international seminar.

He said the new tank featuring higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a smoother ride will mark "a great step forward in armour technology".

For the survivability of the highly trained human assets, armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader.

The crew will be networked with a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.

The new tank is likely to have a new main gun of up to 152 mm calibre and a new hunter-killer fire control system with target acquisition inoptical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrum that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander.


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## BATMAN

> Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank


IMO, Arjun project should not be abondend beacuse of nation's obsession with it.
I also fail to understand that since india have already invented the best tank thing in the world than why don't they induct it in it's main role.
What about export potential of Arjun?


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## BATMAN

Indian Army abandons plans to order more Arjuns



> The Indian army has confirmed that it will not place additional orders for the locally designed Arjun main battle tank (MBT) beyond the 124 already under construction.
> 
> General Dalip Bhardwaj, the army's director general of mechanised infantry, said on 5 July that "the army will place no more orders for the Arjun". While the Arjun "might be used in the next decade or so", he added that it was not suitable "for next-generation warfare". "The army... is looking 20 to 25 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT," he said.
> 
> The Indian Ministry of Defence ordered 124 Arjuns in 2000 - which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been developing *since 1972 *- to be built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in southern India. These were meant to be delivered by 2009 but will not be completed on time.
> 
> Image: The Indian army has effectively killed the Arjun main battle tank project (Jane's)



How much each unit will cost, approximately?
Will those 124 incorporate airconditions?
When is the serial production is expected to start?


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## BATMAN

Failure of Arjun Tank is an example of failed Indian technocrats
Harish Baliga 
Jul. 13, 2008 



> It is a shame that the Arjun Tank &#8211; Indian indigenous manufacturing efforts of high quality defense armor has *miserably failed*.
> 
> It is the failure Indian science and engineering. It just shows where the country has gone under the guidance of dollar and euro loving &#8216;India Inc.&#8217;.
> 
> Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.
> 
> Now the Defense research organization DRDO calls for investigation on sabotage. There is no sabotage. Indian Army has denied the same. It is a just failed Indian engineering and poor quality.
> 
> *This just shows the what talented Indian engineers are and were doing in the last twenty five years.*
> The young talented engineers served as cyber slaves working for American and European companies fixing their &#8216;legacy systems&#8217; and picking up useless call center phone calls.
> 
> India is now void of technical talent to build and service &#8216;real world class engineering.&#8217;


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## Energon

BATMAN said:


> Failure of Arjun Tank is an example of failed Indian technocrats
> Harish Baliga
> Jul. 13, 2008


Actually this is crap, Indian technocrats seem to be doing more than fine based on their performance in the private sector and the demand they have in international job markets (for more than just "cyber slavery"). 

The failure is that of inefficient state run enterprises of yesteryear. The solution is simple; turn the job over to the private sector where the real talent lies. 

By the looks of what they have done with other dud industries like steel, automotive, IT/software, ship building etc. over the last decade and a half makes it fairly easy to predict what a privatized military industrial complex has in store for India.


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## ejaz007

*Indian Army Rejects Competitive Trials of Arjun Main Battle Tank*
Dated 22/7/2008

In a desperate bid to save the main battle tank (MBT) Arjun it has developed, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had suggested a joint assessment of the vehicle with the Indian Army to keep the project alive but this has been summarily rejected by the army. 

The army is also ambiguous on a suggestion by the DRDO that the tank be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 MBTs the army currently operates. Following the armys adverse report on the tanks after winter trials last year, the DRDO had suggested a joint assessment be conducted but the army refused this outright, a defence ministry official told IANS.

On its part, the Indian Army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for 5 to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT. The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this year that the Arjun, which has been in development for the last 36 years, failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert last year. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects. These included a deficient engine and fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tanks inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius. Allegations of sabotage had surfaced after the winter trials.

Following these reports, the DRDO sought a joint trial of Arjun and the T-90, but the army has not taken a clear stand on this, the official said. Drawing a comparison between the two tanks, DRDO says Arjun has a greater power-to-weight ratio, a hydro-pneumatic suspension for a more comfortable ride, a stable platform to fire on the move, and a superior fire control system.

The Arjun costs Rs.168 million while the T-90 costs around Rs.120 million. But then, the Arjun compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs of its class that cost in the range of Rs.170 to 240 million, a DRDO official said. Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh has also hinted at a conspiracy to sabotage the Arjun tank. The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined. The German engines fitted in the tanks were performing well for the past 15 years. I wonder what has happened to them overnight, Singh had said in April, while commenting on the armys assessment after the tanks winter trials.

On its part, the army has rejected any suggestions of sabotage. Arjun was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBTs that were first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistans decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001. Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, near Chennai. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.

With the development of the Arjun delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy 330 more T-90s

Indian Army Rejects Competitive Trials of Arjun Main Battle Tank | India Defence


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## nitesh

guys from the Concept of FMBT if it is going to have a 152mm gun, why can't it just be turned in to a 155mm gun and called as tank cum howitzer?


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## nitesh

The Hindu Business Line : Give Arjun a fighting chance

Give Arjun a fighting chance

Those of us who want to see India emerge as a nation that produces its own weapons to contemporary standards would be dismayed and even perturbed at reports that Arjun, the Main Battle Tank developed after three decades of sweat and toil, will be taken off production even before it started rolling out in decent numbers. Apparently, this proposal is because Arjun has failed to meet the expectations &#8212; never mind the moving goal posts were set by the Army itself all alo ng; and the Army is now looking for state-of-the-art requirements 20 years hence. This is a legitimate desire if there is no urgent need to replace the ageing fleet of T-55s and T-72s.

Going by past experience, even advanced countries take a decade or more to bring about truly path-breaking improvements in weapon platforms. After 13 years, T-95 is still a work in progress in Russia. If one has a measure of what is being attempted in shaping futuristic tanks, there are several areas &#8212; electro magnetic armour, unmanned turret, use of composites and lighter chassis, total missile launching facility and, more importantly, choosing invisibility over invincibility, all in their infancy in development.

Therefore, even those who are called upon to draw RFPs (Request For Proposal) will only be able to put together, as in old times, a m&#233;lange of promised and mostly untested systems, cut and pasted from glossy brochures from the aggressive arms merchants or a mere wish-list. We must consider our terrain and battle conditions and not opt for tanks just because they are from Russia or the US or appear exciting in a demo DVD.

Anyone who has followed the chequered history of Arjun&#8217;s development would most certainly confirm that the Army has been less than fair in its handling of issues arising out of inducting indigenous tanks and deploying them.

Under the teeth of opposition from the Army, though unarticulated in public, the then Defence Minister, Mr George Fernandes, authorised production of 124 numbers in March 2000 after satisfying himself that all production issues were settled and this batch of 124 could be delivered by 2003-2004, according to his statement in Parliament then.

Army&#8217;s Involvement In Development

(Thumbnail is attached below)

Army, as is its wont, was not impressed with Arjun even at this stage although on all parameters such as horse power, speed, suspension, mobility, rifled barrel, imagers and communication sets, it was way ahead of the Soviet tanks that the Army is besotted with. The irony is that, through the years, in the development era of Arjun, Generals of the calibre of Gen Shankar Roy Choudhuri, who later went on to become Rajya Sabha MP, were involved as Project Heads, Chairmen and Members of Steering Committees. The Vice-Chief of Army staff was always associated with every step of the decision-making.

Yet, after ostensibly being satisfied according to averments made in public at the highest levels of Chief Of Staff, the Army insisted on testing the equipment repeatedly almost every winter and every summer, in every desert and every mountain, making each piece produced a prototype. The DRDO was will-nilly forced to commit itself to such procedures as would have been unimaginable to be imposed on any foreign supplier.

Contrast this with the case of the T-72 or T-90. The Soviets or Russians sent a few tanks for testing and the Army made up its mind in a matter of less than two or three years on quantity and variants, convinced the civilian bureaucracy and ordered hundreds of them at one go. It is not that T-72s or T-90s functioned without any technical glitches in operation and maintenance. Even now, T90s are reportedly yet to overcome the problem of losing accuracy due to overheating, although they were cleared after due desert trials.

T72s have had their share of snags such as bursting of barrels, inconsistent accuracy, heating of engines, faulty ammunition loading and so on. Their communication sets are still primitive.

The laser range finders had to be sent back to the manufacturer in bulk for rectification. Overall, all problems were satisfactorily resolved as everyone involved climbed the learning curve.

Parliamentary Committee Report
It was only a year ago, the 14th parliamentary report by the Ministry of Defence stated that, Arjun Tank Mark-II production will be taken up after the successful completion of the first order of 124 Arjun tanks. The same report stated that, &#8220;MBT Arjun is a 60-tonne class battle tank with state of the art opto-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class, specifically configured for the requirements of the Indian Army.

Unlike the T-90 tank, which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by the Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50-tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank.

However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun costs Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the West. It is understood that T-90 tank costs approximately Rs 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised.

MBT Arjun&#8217;s firing accuracy is far superior to the other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2,500 meters. Its 1,400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. MBT Arjun has good export potential in the African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs. (Table)

Arjun&#8217;s Woes
However, in May this year, in reply to a Parliament question, the Defence Minister informed that Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break-down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials. The tanks also had problems of consistency, recorded failure of hydro-pneumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls.

All Arjun&#8217;s problems except engine failure, were reported to have been resolved promptly. However, for engine failure, the Army field teams also have to bear some accountability as they are known to flog the vehicle at top speeds for long periods as the rides are smooth with superior hydro-pneumatic suspension compared to T-72s. This, in fact, prompted the suppliers Powerpack to install data loggers and automatic computer controls to prevent overheating.

This like the black box of an aircraft gave the complete log of the use of the vehicle but also regulated the speed on sensing overheating. It is learnt that results of close monitoring are being analysed and the engineers are confident that the problem can be fixed soon.

Continued lack Of Synergy
However, despite lofty exhortations from the Prime Minister downwards, what has been most difficult to achieve and standing in the way of making Arjun, a success is the lack of synergy between the user, on the one side, and the developer on the other.

Arjun is not treated with the same deference as other Russian tanks, either because there is reluctance to study and follow the manual of operations and maintenance provided by the producer or because they find it difficult to switch from the T-72 mode.

Although several recommendations of Dr Rama Rao Committee for revamping Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are under serious consideration for implementation, the immediate need in the case of Arjun is to thwart any misguided attempts by the Army to throw the baby with the bath water. The time, effort and money spent on development of indigenous fighting equipment, including Arjun, should not be squandered away in pursuit of pipe-dreams on technology or mindless fascination for foreign equipment.

(The author is former Member, Ordnance Factories.)


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## nitesh

some new twist in arjun saga:
LiveFist: FORCE Mag's Prasun K Sengupta working on in-depth evolutionary analysis of India's MBT requirements


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## nitesh

Ajay sahab is becoming a boxer or what?

check this guys:
Broadsword: It&#8217;s War! And you can win it for the Arjun&#8230;


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## jaison

abhay is just a technology demo ,more ahead

Future ICV should ideally be wheeled and not tracked


A FORCE Report July (2008)
Feature / Report

Modest Presence
Snipers Beware!
Fired up
Amphibious Operations
War Within



The emphasis of the Defence Procurement Procedures &#8212; 2008 (DPP-2008), released on August 1, is on &#8216;speedy procurements and speedy indigenisation without compromising on transparency,&#8217; according to the defence minister, A.K. Antony. Speaking at the recently held &#8216;international seminar on Future Infantry Combat Vehicle and Future Main Battle Tank (FICV & FMBT)&#8217; organised jointly by the Confederation of Indian Industries and the army&#8217;s directorate of mechanised forces, he said that, &#8220;The new DPP will bring maximum synergy between the user, the public and private sector in the country.&#8221; The minister added that the new purchase policy would promote indigenisation and encourage wider participation on panels doing technical evaluation of indigenously designed military platforms. 

According to Antony, the collaborative and networked defence R&D can go a long way in enabling the nation address technology gaps, match global standards and promote indigenisation. The defence minister was reacting to issues raised earlier by the chairman, CII&#8217;s National Committee on Defence, Atul Kirloskar. In a spirited speech, reflecting the exasperation of the private sector, Kirloskar made four points. One, the identification of Raksha Udyog Ratna (RUR) should be done soon. This will help the private industry play a meaningful role in the design and development as well as in the production of products. This will also assist the medium and small scale industry participation in defence production. Two, as mentioned in the Kelkar committee report, the private sector should be involved alongside the public sector right from the conceptualisation state as this will provide a level playing field to the former. Three, as the private industry is willing to invest in the defence sector, this is only possible if the Defence Acquisition Board allows it the opportunities to do so. And lastly, the government should involve both the public and private sector in product development strategies that has a long gestation period. The need is to identify and focus on key technologies that a country does not get from outside and has to develop on its own. All in all, the underlying message in all the issues raised by Kirloskar was that the private sector was ready, has the expertise, is willing to invest, and instead of a competitor it ought to be recognised as a complementing partner to the public sector. For this reason, the naming of the RUR companies in the private sector is an essential requirement that should not be delayed further.

As if seconding what Kirloskar had said, the chief of army staff, General Deepak Kapoor, who was the guest of honour at the function, dwelled upon the importance of new technologies. &#8220;Future wars, whether conventional or sub-conventional and held under the nuclear weapons shadow, will be technology driven,&#8221; he said, adding that, &#8220;the long gestation period of weapons&#8217; development would need to be curtailed, and given the short shelf life of emerging technologies, the industry will be called upon to provide the needed edge.&#8221; Specifically on the FICV & FMBT, the army chief listed the requirements of &#8216;firepower, survivability, situational awareness, and mobility&#8217; as the essence of the new platforms. He made it clear that land-based forces will remain the primary elements for guarding India&#8217;s national interests, and thus the need for mechanised forces cannot be undermined.

In his address, the Director General, Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen. Dalip Bhardwaj while agreeing with the army chief&#8217;s observation, said that at times the user is not aware of the fast changing technologies, and hence is unable to firm up the General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR). It is the scientist (Defence Research and Development Organisation) that &#8216;should not give the user what he wants, but what he needs.&#8217; He emphasised on the joint facilitation approach between the DRDO and the user right from the GSQR stage. According to him, three technologies that will impact upon deciding the FICV & FMBT are: Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities for full situation awareness; Command, Control, Computers, Co-ordination and Intelligence (C4I) for real time engagement of targets; and precision firepower. In short, the FICV & FBMT will need to be &#8216;agile, fully networked and capable for conventional warfare.&#8217; And, this is what the mechanised forces are looking for in its &#8216;threat cum capability&#8217; based force level requirement. The DG added that few new MBTs and ICVs have been made globally since 1990, as after that the emphasis has been on upgrades. This is also the case with India, and like elsewhere, India will be seriously looking for the FICV & FMBT to serve it beyond 2020.


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## nitesh

RIA Novosti - World - India eyes new-generation Russian tank

India eyes new-generation Russian tank
16:06	|	19/ 08/ 2008

MOSCOW, August 19 (RIA Novosti) - India could consider plans to produce a new-generation tank jointly with Russia, the managing director of the BrahMos Aerospace joint venture said on Tuesday.

Sivathanu Pillai said that while the new tank had yet to be developed, it could be built in Russia. He offered no indication of when the project could be launched, however.

Russian experts earlier said Russia and India could launch production of a new tank in the near future.

India currently assembles T-90S main battle tanks under a Russian license.

The T-90S version is in service with the Indian Army, and the local production of T-90S Bhishma tanks started recently in India.

In 2001, India bought 310 T-90S tanks from Russia.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace designs, produces and markets supersonic missiles, whose sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian army and navy.


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## nitesh

Russia agrees to transfer key technology for T-90 tanks - Howrah News Service - Latest news and headlines on Howrah and West Bengal

Russia agrees to transfer key technology for T-90 tanks

After months of acrimony, Russia has finally agreed to transfer key technology for the frontline T-90 tanks enabling Indian armament factories to now go ahead full steam to produce these weapon platforms indigenously.

"Russians have finally agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels by end of this year," a top Defence ministry official said here today after the two-day long intensive deliberations between the two countries.

The delay in providing the specifications had held up the indigenous production of the T-90 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory.

India and Russia have signed agreements for delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks at a cost of a staggering $ 1.2 billion.

The deal, concluded in three tranches over the past five years, also specifies transfer of technology for production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks in India.

At the 8th meeting of the Indo-Russian working group on shipbuilding, aviation and land systems, Moscow also agreed to full product support for indigenous production of these tanks.

"The Russian side have agreed that the delivery schedule mutually accepted by the two countries in June this year would be maintained," the official said.

With this crucial agreement, it has become apparent that the Indian army would continue to rely on the Russian tanks as its main battle tanks. This is significant as the indigenous Arjun tanks have yet to pass the crucial induction trials.


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## Interceptor

If Indian Army rejects the Arjun for argument sake what kind of lost is that for India, is India really dependent on Arjun as I can see most of the work force is made from T-90s.

And who will take the for the blame for it?


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## Contrarian

If IA rejects Arjun, the loss would be practically unfathomable. Apart from the millions or billions sunk in it, the loss of experience would hurt the most. The reason why Arjun took or is taking so long to materialize, is that India did not have prior experience of building tanks, or the technology or the industrial base. From building armour like Kanchan, etc to even the body. The amount of research that has gone into Arjun is mind boggling and it will all be lost. 

And if for arguments sake, India decides to build a tank again in the future, it would have to go through with the learning curve AGAIN, it would again take 15 years to develop the tank as the contemporary tank technologies of that time would not be present.

The best way forward would have been to induct say 300 tanks, signifcant enough in number that the army still wants it to get better, and not so high that if the product does not perform to the required level, the OR of the Army is not compromised if the need arises suddenly. Just like the Israeli's did it with Merkava. Induct it even if it is bad, then make incremental changes/block upgrades, whatever.

However with recent news reports suggesting that India and Russia would collaborate on the next generation tank, maybe, with the experience that India has with Arjun would actually mean that the product is actually co-developed in the true sense and India is not merely funding it. And frankly, as of now, it seems that the Arjun is a far better tank than what Russia has ever produced and that includes their best tank right now-the T-90M. So im guessing it will be something of this case.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## nitesh

your points are correct but if we see army (DGMF) attitude it is hell bent on killing arjun some really radical thinking is needed something like replacing T 55 and t 72 regiments with arjun


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## nitesh

Same as above but it says something more

Zee News - T-90 tanks, Russia
Russia agrees to transfer key technology for T-90 tanks 

New Delhi, Aug 19: After months of acrimony, Russia has finally agreed to transfer key technology for the frontline T-90 tanks enabling Indian armament factories to now go ahead full steam to produce these weapon platforms indigenously. 

"Russians have finally agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels by end of this year," a top Defence ministry official said here today after the two-day long intensive deliberations between the two countries. 

The delay in providing the specifications had held up the indigenous production of the T-90 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory. 

India and Russia have signed agreements for delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks at a cost of a staggering US 1.2 billion dollars. 

The deal, concluded in three tranches over the past five years, also specifies transfer of technology for production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks in India. 

At the 8th meeting of the Indo-Russian working group on shipbuilding, aviation and land systems, Moscow also agreed to full product support for indigenous production of these tanks. 

"The Russian side have agreed that the delivery schedule mutually accepted by the two countries in June this year would be maintained," the official said. 

With this crucial agreement, it has become apparent that the Indian army would continue to rely on the Russian tanks as its main battle tanks. This is significant as the indigenous Arjun tanks have yet to pass the crucial induction trials. 

Though the Ordnance Factories Board had concluded the technology transfer agreement with Russia way back in 2001, Moscow's reluctance to part with key barrel specifications had held up the indigenous production of the tanks. 

At the meeting co-chaired by Ajay Acharya, Additional Secretary, Defence Production, and his Russian counterpart Karavaev Igor Evgeniyevich, New Delhi also submitted its technical requirements for the joint development of a futuristic 5th generation fighter aircraft. 

Though the aircraft design is yet to be finalised, the two countries have agreed to step up efforts to ensure that the new fighter enters flying service by 2015. 

The key working group met within the framework of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission military technical cooperation and also took up issues for supply of Russian sub-systems for India's new range of P-17A warships. 

"The talks were held in a highly professional manner. Sides expressed their readiness to take all the necessary measures to further develop cooperation on a mutually beneficial basis," Defence Ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said. 

Russia has also agreed to open cooperation with the bluechip public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as an offset partner for future programmes. 

Bureau Report


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## Interceptor

nitesh said:


> your points are correct but if we see army (DGMF) attitude it is hell bent on killing arjun some really radical thinking is needed something like replacing T 55 and t 72 regiments with arjun



That might be due to the lack of involvement I would say isn't the Arjun made for the Army upcoming needs? Why would the Army not be interested unless they were not made part of the Project unless it does not meet the Indian Army requirements?

When I look at the specs of the Arjun it is just over gadgeted and its not really specifically addressing a specific purpose, is it a force multiplier is it a front line weapon, whats its main purpose other than it is MBT but what was its main use for.


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## nitesh

Interceptor said:


> That might be due to the lack of involvement I would say isn't the Arjun made for the Army upcoming needs? Why would the Army not be interested unless they were not made part of the Project unless it does not meet the Indian Army requirements?


The point is that what is needs? Does it does not meet the GSQR meet by army? Well I hadn't came across such statement (correct me if I am wrong).



> When I look at the specs of the Arjun it is just over gadgeted and its not really specifically addressing a specific purpose, is it a force multiplier is it a front line weapon, whats its main purpose other than it is MBT but what was its main use for.



Well I am confused what are trying to say here can you please elaborate.


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## jaison

Interceptor said:


> That might be due to the lack of involvement I would say isn't the Arjun made for the Army upcoming needs? Why would the Army not be interested unless they were not made part of the Project unless it does not meet the Indian Army requirements?
> 
> When I look at the specs of the Arjun it is just over gadgeted and its not really specifically addressing a specific purpose, is it a force multiplier is it a front line weapon, whats its main purpose other than it is MBT but what was its main use for.


 arjun is a fantastic machine,the demands of the army have made the drdo to develop heat resistant electronics which can operate without airconditioning(unlike t-90) and it also has unique features like rifled gun and hydrogas suspension........with the present order of t-90 and ajeya upgrade with BEML 1000hp engine the army is more than a match for our adverseries........now instead of placing orders for more arjuns(which is a contemporary tank) it is now planning to induct new futuristic tanks which are more cost effective and more modern.......thus an international seminar was held to draw ideas from the worlds best tank makers to assist india in finding an apt solution......the tank may be developed by cvrde,hvf avadi,private firms and possibly russians.....this will replace ajeyas which will inturn replace the t-55s in reserve.........ia has planned with a new mbt because the US,eu are moving ahead with fcs and Future Rapid Effects System and we have to catch up with them by teaming up with russia instead of wasting money on inducting arjun ,peraphs r&d of arjun can be used in this.......but the army should place an order for 124 more arjuns to compensate development costs......if the army inducts arjuns in large numbers then it has to modify infrastructure adding to the already more expensive arjun but t-90 is already compatible with t-72 infrastructure.........


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## Contrarian

Interceptor said:


> That might be due to the lack of involvement I would say isn't the Arjun made for the Army upcoming needs? Why would the Army not be interested unless they were not made part of the Project unless it does not meet the Indian Army requirements?
> 
> When I look at the specs of the Arjun it is just over gadgeted and its not really specifically addressing a specific purpose, is it a force multiplier is it a front line weapon, whats its main purpose other than it is MBT but what was its main use for.



The Arjun is what the Army ordered and more. But the Army has a fixation of having low observable T series tanks. Basically in the IA, there are two camps-the overwhelming majority is the T series general, and minority are the from the western camp-those that used Vijayanta.

The Army is not used to this kind of an MBT. Not to mention, even though they intially wanted such kind of heavy MBT, they now say that the logistics of Arjun are not sustainable, because most bridges, roads, etc dont have that kind of weight, height, and width clearances. That they might collapse, and that Arjun is not rail transportable because most tunnels are not designed to accomodate Arjun neither are the wagons. 

A ton of other issues.


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## jaison

malaymishra123 said:


> The Arjun is what the Army ordered and more. But the Army has a fixation of having low observable T series tanks. Basically in the IA, there are two camps-the overwhelming majority is the T series general, and minority are the from the western camp-those that used Vijayanta.
> 
> The Army is not used to this kind of an MBT. Not to mention, even though they intially wanted such kind of heavy MBT, they now say that the logistics of Arjun are not sustainable, because most bridges, roads, etc dont have that kind of weight, height, and width clearances. That they might collapse, and that Arjun is not rail transportable because most tunnels are not designed to accomodate Arjun neither are the wagons.
> 
> A ton of other issues.


true


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## jaison

India sets in motion plans for futuristic tanks	


Author: idrw team | 22 July 2008 | Views: 206


BY : PTI 

To keep up with the trend amongst major powers, Indian army today set in motion the process of building a futuristic main battle tank (MBT), which will be inducted post 2020. 

Army is visualising that the future tanks could be network operated sans the crew and has given the nod for framing general qualitative staff requirements (GQSR) for such a mean machine. 

Plans for going in for such smart tanks and infantry combat vehicles were unveiled today at an international seminar on future MBTs, which was attended by the Defence Minister A K Antony and Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor. 

"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation. 

Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank but, at the same time, did not rule out the possibility of a "collaborative effort on technology sharing basis". 

Antony was not forthcoming on whether plans to develop a new tank would sound a death knell for the country's maiden effort in producing Arjun main battle tank.
India sets in motion plans for futuristic tanks www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing


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## nitesh

that's old news buddy what u r trying to say here


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## jaison

it says that the army will now start formulating gsqr as it has conducted the international seminar..............it also speaks abt unmanned tanks ,even US fcs,UK fres are manned but then they are being executed much earlier than fmbt,ficv.


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## nitesh

ok so what r u trying to say by posting the news


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## jaison

am not saying anything i just posted it for a read ,thats all.


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## nitesh

so at the fist place the same thing I said that it is an old news


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## jaison

nitesh said:


> so at the fist place the same thing I said that it is an old news


sorry sir, pardon my ignorance.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> sorry sir, pardon my ignorance.



well sorry my point was r u trying to point out to something like any new update on that front or the same T95 getting selected here.


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## jaison

no no the t-95 has an unmanned turret but the vehicle is manned ,fmbt is unmanned..........may be if it is a joint venture with russia some t-95 tech may flow in.........it will be a new tank.
India, Russia to jointly develop futuristic 'smart tank' news	

21 July 2008	



Mumbai: India and Russia are planning to jointly develop a futuristic 'smart' battle tank, having higher speed and better firepower, reports quoting Nikolai Malykh, director general of Russia's biggest battle factory Uralvagonzavod (UVZ), as saying.

The two sides had preliminary discussions on the issue and defence ministry experts in India will discuss the new project when a delegation of the (UVZ) tank-building factory visits India this week to participate in an international seminar on the future main battle tank (FMBT) organised by the Army along with the Confederation of Indian Industry, according to Malykh. 

''We put forward this idea (of developing the tank) at the turn of the 21st century. The Indian side has now come up with a similar proposal," the Moscow Defence Brief (MDB) magazine quoted Malykh as saying. 

''We will take the first step when our experts go to India to attend a conference on the future tank and prospects for the tank-building industry," Malykh said on the sidelines of a defence expo. 


The new tank will have higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a smoother ride and improved armour protection for *crew, the report said.

Armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader, to ensure the survivability of highly trained human assets, it said.

Information for the crew will be networked using a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.* 

The move comes even as the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had suggested a joint assessment with the Indian Army to save the main battle tank (MBT) Arjun and keep the project alive.

The rmy, however, has rejected by the idea. The army is also ambiguous on a suggestion by the DRDO that the tank be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 MBTs the army currently operates.

A leading Russian defence expert says it makes good sense for India and Russia to join hands in building a futuristic tank. 

India has purchased over 1,600 T-90S MBTs from the UVZ of which 1,000 will be manufactured at the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi. Uralvagonzavod has for a long time been cooperating with the Avadi plant in the production of T-72 and T-90S MBTs.
domain-b.com : India, Russia to jointly develop futuristic 'smart tank'
this says it will be manned but the present article says it is unmanned.i was trying to tell that.


regards


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## nitesh

the report says



> The new tank will have higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a smoother ride and improved armour protection for crew, the report said.
> 
> Armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader, to ensure the survivability of highly trained human assets, it said.
> 
> Information for the crew will be networked using a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.


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## jaison

may be t-95 is just a prototype and the best is yet to come wtih an unmanned mbt,i dont know if this report i posted is true but unmanned mbt can offer the following advantages
*smaller size and weight as crew compartment and life support systems(like nbc protection,ac)can be removed.
*no human errors,quicker response in mission using battlefield information which may take longer in manned ones.
*no crew training costs and training crews with tanks and simulators takes away lots of money(it is said that loosing a trained tank crew is next to loosing a trained fighter pilot)
*can carry out more risky tasks and the most important of all ,no human casualities.


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## nitesh

unmanned tank is a concept long way to go, any way check this link it's in russian

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1337/Fmbt/fmbt.html


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## jaison

nitesh said:


> unmanned tank is a concept long way to go, any way check this link it's in russian
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1337/Fmbt/fmbt.html


yes it will take the indian army to induct these tanks post 2020 which will be 15 years from now and that seems reasonable to me.....15 years is a lot of time and with the cooperation of private sectors and the russians i believe we can do it.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> yes it will take the indian army to induct these tanks post 2020 which will be 15 years from now and that seems reasonable to me.....15 years is a lot of time and with the cooperation of private sectors and the russians i believe we can do it.



to be honest I think the future tank will include more of a unmanned turret. I don't think so it will be completely unmanned. But it will definitely include high degree of net centricity and some new weapons like CLGM with improved range something of sort 8-10km


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## jaison

nitesh said:


> to be honest I think the future tank will include more of a unmanned turret. I don't think so it will be completely unmanned. But it will definitely include high degree of net centricity and some new weapons like CLGM with improved range something of sort 8-10km


anything is possible it may be manned or unmanned ,the future is very unpredictable and only time will tell and we will all be present to hear that....but yes manned mbts with unmanned turrets seem to be more realistic.


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> anything is possible it may be manned or unmanned ,the future is very unpredictable and only time will tell and we will all be present to hear that....but yes manned mbts with unmanned turrets seem to be more realistic.



Hey any concrete info available on the future tank seems to be unavailable but unmanned well that seems too far off


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## nitesh

guys check this:

India Today - The most widely read newsweekly in South Asia.

All dressed up and no takers 

Sandeep Unnithan 
September 5, 2008 

Space is at a premium at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi on the outskirts of Chennai. But these are no ordinary motor cars which need parking. Rows of battle tanks lie jammed, spilling out of the factory premises. Parking a monster that is the size of a city bus but at 60 tonne weighs heavier than a railway coach, is no easy task. 

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) officials have asked for parking space at the nearby Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) that designed the tank, even as they worry about sheltering their monsters and its electronics from the elements.

In the past four years, over 90 Arjun main battle tanks have rolled off the production line that made India's first indigenous tank-part of an order for 124 tanks that was placed six years ago. 

In late August this year, the army completed nearly a year of what it calls Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) and somewhat unprecedented, extended trials in the desert of Rajasthan. 

Trials that tested the three characteristics of any battle tank-firepower, mobility and protection. From all accounts the tank finally morphed from a white elephant into an extreme battle machine worthy of its moniker. 

So far 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks have completed a cumulative 80,000 km, or the equivalent of two trips around the world, and fired over 8,000 rounds. 


The Arjun tankTwo tanks covering over 6,000 km or nearly twice the distance they are supposed to cover in 10 years. Now, the army is poring over the trial reports to decide whether the crowded tank lot at Avadi will equip at least three of the army's 61 armoured regiments.

There's just a catch. The army has pronounced its verdict. It wants more tanks-armoured fists that are used to punch through enemy lines and an essential component of its Cold Start battle strategy-but it does not want the Arjun. 

Speaking at a recent CII seminar on the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), Lt General Dalip Bharadwaj, director general, Mechanised Forces said the army will not place orders for Arjun beyond the 124 already on order because it is "now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT".

His predecessor, Lt General (retd.) K.D.S. Shekhawat is blunter. "The DRDO does not want to own up, the Arjun is based on the German Army's Leopard-1 design which entered service in the mid-1960s. It outlived its life over a decade ago. 

Today, every tank in the world, including the Leopard-2 and T-90, have sloped turrets (to reduce the impact of a hit) but the Arjun still continues with the rectangular turret."

The DRDO is combative and not only because the project is the baby of the current chief M. Natarajan. "The Arjun can handle all present and future threats," says the DRDO. 

This war of words between the army and DRDO could well be among the penultimate chapters in the long sad story of a saga that began with the army placing General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) for an indigenous tank in May 1974. 

The project was to cost Rs 15.50 crore and to be completed in a decade. The first production model of 'Chetak', as it was then called, which rolled out in 1984, was wisely renamed the Arjun. 

Plagued by technical glitches&#8212;its European electronics did not work in the searing circuit&#8212;melting 50 degree heat of the Thar desert-the final production series tank was not delivered until 1995 or a decade after the original deadline. 


Arjun tanks at the Heavy Vehicles Factory in ChennaiPerhaps the DRDO strategically overreached itself on this project as it had on several others. It agreed to deliver everything on the tank when it should have gone in for a no-frills Mark 1. This was clearly not the case when the tank was due for induction into service by an already extended deadline of 1995 and an exasperated army did not get its tanks.

The army, which has around 3,500 tanks in 61 armoured regiments&#8212;each with 45 tanks, mostly T-72s imported and licence-produced from Russia in the early '80s serving as first line MBTs-has this complaint. The Arjun did not come on time. 

Not even when the acquisition of 300 Ukranian missile-firing T-80s UD MBTs by Pakistan in 1997 dangerously tilted the balance of armoured power on the subcontinent. (Tanks can only be used on the deserts and plains of India's western borders). 

Even during Operation Parakram, the near-war with Pakistan in December 2001, the army found its T-72s, obsolete T-55s and Vijayantas staring down the gunsights of the more modern T-80s. There was no sign of the Arjun.

Delays in productionising the design ensured the order for 124 tanks was not placed to the OFB until 2002 and production did not begin until 2004 or nearly three decades after the project had been conceived. "The Arjun was not available when we needed it," says a senior army official.

The army was hence forced to import 310, T-90 tanks from Russia in 2001 to sharpen the tip of its armoured spear. The door had begun to close on the Arjun which was still jumping through the hoops of the army's trials. 

Even as the tank struggled to meet GSQRs, the army would add new demands citing delays and changes in the global scenario. "The army's GSQR was always a moving goal post," says a DRDO-armoured vehicle scientist. "You cannot have a tank with the best-of-the-world-systems."

Yet the Arjun managed to do this and more. Some of the state-of-the-art technologies incorporated in the tank include a modern fire control system with Fire Control Computer and multiple rocket system-which gives it the ability to blast targets placed over a km away while on the move, a gas-based suspension, a unique 'Kanchan' composite armour capable of withstanding direct hits from T-72 and T-90 tanks , lethally accurate fin-stabilised armour piercing discarding sabot ammunition and kinetic energy penetrators which can shatter enemy tanks, Nuclear-Biological-Chemical protection not to speak of the ability of the 60-tonne monster to spin full circle on a coin in 12 seconds.

During the desert trials which concluded last week the tanks also rectified two problems raised by Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor during a visit to the CVRDE in May-premature failure of engine transmission and gun accuracy.

However, it finds that the army has shifted the goal posts again. This time, to over the horizon. "Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for next generation warfare some two decades hence," says Bharadwaj.

In the meantime, the army has gone ahead and ordered an additional 330 T-90 tank kits and another 1,000 T-90s from Russia to be assembled at the HVF, Avadi, a deal that actually saved Russia's largest tank manufacturer, Ural Vagon Zavod from shutdown. 

By 2020, the army hopes to field a force of over 21 regiments of T-90 tanks and 40 regiments of modified T-72s. The DRDO has been arguing for a slice of the pie-a mix of heavy tanks including the Arjun and medium tanks like the T-72 and T-90. 

But the army is not convinced. It has rejected the DRDO's offer of Arjun Mark-2-featuring uprated engines, digital fire control and a battlefield management system with the ability to 'talk' to other assets, which it claims it can field in five years. 

The army insists it wants nothing short of a futuristic tank. Yet, despite repeated reminders over the past two years, the army is yet to even furnish the DRDO its requirements.

Has the door been closed on Arjun? Not just yet. Senior Defence Ministry officials have indicated an order for a second batch of modified 124 Arjun tanks as a face-saver for the DRDO and that would be the end of the programme. "After that we want the DRDO to focus on building the FMBT."


The army will buy over 1,600 T-90s in 12 yearsThe DRDO which says it needs an order of at least 376 more tanks to breakeven on the project investments of around Rs 370 crore is now scrambling to integrate Arjun-2 features on the promised second batch.

The DRDO is also pressing for comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 known as the 'Bhishma' in the army, in Rajasthan later this year. It is a desperate rearguard action where the agency hopes to repeat mythology, but this is a contest the army is keen to avoid. "It's just a ploy to fool the bureaucrats," snarls a senior army official.

The army concedes that the Arjun programme was a learning experience&#8212;on how not to execute a project and the necessity for closer user-interface. "As users we did not get adequately involved in the project as say the navy does," says Shekhawat. "Army officers posted on the project reported to the DRDO and not to army HQ. In the end, the DRDO did not get honest advice," he says.

The battle over the Arjun is not just about a tank. It is about the shaky but obligatory path of building of indigenous defence capability. Why for instance, India's stunning success in the space industry has not translated into defence industry?

These are matters which transcend the bean counters at service headquarters into the realm of higher national strategic planning. India already has the dubious distinction of being the world's second largest importer of defence items, abjectly dependent on foreign suppliers who sit on the UN Security Council, where it aspires to be-to supply basics like tanks and fighter aircraft.

There are some answers under the hood of the Arjun&#8212;only the third complete defence system produced indigenously after the Akash medium-range surface-to-air missile and the Pinaka rocket system. 

A raft of systems made indigenously talks about the tremendous force-multiplier effect of this programme. Its gearbox is common with the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and indigenous gas-based suspension compares with the best in the world. 

Sure, nearly 60 per cent of the components of the first batch of 124 tanks, including the German-built power pack are imported. The DRDO says these will be reduced to under 30 per cent after it builds 500 tanks.

"We are not ashamed of the delays but ashamed of the fact that we cannot sell it within our own country," says a senior DRDO scientist. An Arjun with no takers in India. That would be a tragedy of epic proportions.

Why the Arjun is grounded 

Army&#8217;s view

Arjun is horribly late. Should have been inducted a decade ago when Pakistan began inducting T-80s.
Requirements changed because DRDO took time to deliver first batch of tanks.
Tank is good but relevant only for 10-15 years. We want future tanks.
Don&#8217;t want Arjun-2. Are importing over 1,600 T-90 tanks from Russia.
DRDO should work on Future MBT design for the army

DRDO view

Development cycle and delays in productionising the tank at OFB. Army kept changing requirements.
Army always wanted &#8216;best in the world&#8217; systems and we had to satisfy them.
Order 376 more Arjuns, we&#8217;ll give you a more sophisticated Arjun-2.
Take the T-90s but also order 500 indigenous Arjuns.
Army yet to give us FMBT design for two years now.


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## nitesh

guys check this:
some nice pics
LiveFist: Photos: Sandeep Unnithan visits MBT Arjun


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## nitesh

I hope this is not the final nail in the coffin:

Russia and India Agree to Transfer of Key Technology for T-90 Tanks

After two day-long intensive deliberations between the two countries, Russia has agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels to India by the end of this year. The delay has prevented India from commencing production of the T-90 tanks at its own Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory.

According to Defense Ministry Spokesman, Sitanshu Kar:
&#8220;The talks were held in a highly professional manner. Sides expressed their readiness to take all the necessary measures to further develop cooperation on a mutually beneficial basis.&#8221;

What does this new agreement with Russia mean for India?
The agreement promises a new independence for India as that country will soon be able be to produce these weapon platforms indigenously without the help of Russia. The two countries signed agreements for the delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks for the staggering cost of 1.2 billion US dollars. The deal, which will conclude over the next five years, also provides to India the transfer of technology for the production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks. Moscow has also agreed to full product support for the production of these tanks.

The agreement clarifies the position of the Indian army, which is forced to continue to rely on mainly Russian tanks. The indigenous Indian Arjun tanks, have not yet passed important induction trials.

What does the future hold for both countries?
The joint development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft may also be in the works. Although the aircraft design has not been finalized, the two countries have agreed to ensure that this new fighter plane will be in service by the year 2015.

And for the rest of us, what kind of tanks can we expect to produce in the next five years or so? I for one don&#8217;t know, and wouldn&#8217;t venture a guess, but maybe somewhere there&#8217;s someone who&#8230;.wants to make a deal?


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## bhangra12345

nitesh said:


> I hope this is not the final nail in the coffin:



Nope, it is not relevant to arjun at all.
The first statement of the article is what it is all about. Until now, t-90s were all Russian skds/ckds. now we can build from a more lower level.


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## nitesh

bhangra12345 said:


> Nope, it is not relevant to arjun at all.
> The first statement of the article is what it is all about. Until now, t-90s were all Russian skds/ckds. now we can build from a more lower level.



It has relevance. With the things cleared up, DGMF will find one more reason for not accepting arjun. Like now we have T 90 production running so leave arjun project get involved in fmbt and all.


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## Ali.009

*Indian Arjun vs Pakistani Al-Khalid: A comparitive analysis​*
*The author is an Indian Retd. Major. Project Arjun, a sitter for Pak MBT Al-Khalid: By: Major General M. L. Popli (retd.) *


Pakistani Al Khalid tank


Failed Indian tank called Arjun. India dissatisfied with the project has ordered 500 T-90 Russian tanks​

India&#8217;s main battle tank Project Arjun is, unfortunately, more flab than brawn. More a heavyweight than a performer. A potpourri really, with a French engine, and German seals fitted into an Indian hull and turret. And transporting this heavyweight is going to be another problem, which could limit its operational performance.

Project Arjun has indeed suffered throughout its development, from confusion and inexplicable delays. And by imbalances between the Army, the DRDO and the bureaucracy. Pakistan by contrast, has drawn a lesson from the Indian experience and avoided the trap of over lasting her R&D&#8217;s indigenous know-how in the development of its MBT Khalid.


India&#8217;s main Battle Tank (MBT) Project Arjun, named after mythical hero of the Mahabharat, was conceived in 1974. It was then planned that by 1995, about 10 armoured regiments of the Indian Army would be re-equipped with Arjun. Depending excessively on research and development, advanced industrial and defence production base, project Arjun was planned entirely to be under taken by the scientists and the engineers indigenously.

Almost six different agencies have been at work on this project, besides a number of subsidiary organizations. Published reports revealed that after a number of prototypes and pre-production models spread over the last 16 years or so, own Defence and Research Development Organization has managed to produce an over 60 tons tank. Some armour experts have termed it as more of a heavyweight than a performer, more of flabbiness than mobile fire power.

Arjun mounts a 120mm rifled gun deadly in lethal power but wanting in accuracy. Its performance in various trails was reported to be anything but up to the mark. It is believed that during in March 1990, General V. N. Sharma, the then Army Chief of Staff and an armoured expert, was &#8220;quite wild&#8221; when only three of the five rounds hit the 5X5 meter target and no hit was scored against a moving target. 

Its trial performance stands in sharp contrast to that claimed by the DRDO that the tank&#8217;s main gun would hit a target 60X60 cm from a distance of 2000 meter. In another similar field trial a month earlier, only four of the five rounds had hit a 5X5 meter target at 1100 meter. Incidentally, such accuracy trials are generally related to the height of the tanks, usually 2 meter high. 

Arjun was basically planned as an ambitious project with complete indigenous components and assemblies.

It has now been revealed that the Arjun&#8217;s sub-systems were all imported except for the hull and the turret. The imported assemblies include all major sub-systems such as engine, transmission, track-suspension, gin and fire control. Our experts are of the view that their integration, &#8220;leaves much to be desired&#8221;. The auxiliary power unit from France did not perfectly fit in the tank, with the German seals not meeting the General Staff qualitative requirements of withstanding temperatures up to 150 degree Centigrade. The barely measured up to 120 degrees. Arjun is therefore quite a &#8220;khichri&#8221; with the French engine, with German seals fitted into the Indian hull and turret mounting a not very accurate 120mm gun. 

Armoured experts say that another problem thrown up by the heavyweight is its transportation. Arjun could present a lot of problem for transportation by railways particularly through certain portions of the system. This could impose very serious limitations on the Arjun&#8217;s operational performance. In most of the field armies, the tank transporters and assault bridges are not usually designed to take such heavy weights. These aspects mostly highlight the engineering and operational problems.

It would be worthwhile to example financial implications. Both the Controller and Auditor General (CAG) and Public Accounts Committee have been very critical of this project relating to as much as of the rising costs as well as inordinate delays. Our finance men generally been very unhappy both over the time and cost factor, originally sanctioned at Rs. 15 crore per copy, its costs have excalated to nearly double the original estimates. Dr. Raja Ramanna has stated that the bulk production of Arjun as Indian Army&#8217;s MBT would commence sometime in 1992 or so. Hopefully, the Arjun should be the medium through which our strike corps would achieve their objective.
Experience in the most advanced countries suggests that it takes nearly 20 years t develop and integrate a tank. However, appreciating our security environment it is necessary that a state of the art MBT should become available to our forces by 1994-95. To draw lesson for the future, it is essential to cover this aspect. Project Arjun throughout its development has suffered from confusion and perhaps also from avoidable indecisive delays. It has been dogged by grave imbalances between the DRDO, the bureaucracy and the Army. It took us nearly 15 years to appoint an expert senior Armoured Corps officers (Lt. Gen.) to coordinate the various loose ends. General Tripathi was the first incumbent. 

As it is, project Arjun has involved the utilization of six major imported sub-systems and , there fore all this talk of idigneousness will not quite wash. Yet another lesson is that we should not put all our eggs in one basket and must have fall back position s and options, despite repeated setbacks - be these in the ongoing Arjun and the LCA projects and our earliest dismal experience on HF-24 Muruts. 

While our success in missiles is definitely a feather in DRDO&#8217;s cap, the Arjun and LCA projects underlines, the need for a review at the political level whether India can support such wasteful expenditure and delays. This is an age of globalization and sharing of technology, along with co-sharing of benefits. We seem to have paid rather heavily for trying to do it ourselves in the vain hope of doing it better than all others elsewhere.

Perhaps the political factor and DRDO&#8217;s overconfidence may have been major limitations and our political masters and scientists as well as the users need to have a second look in such vital areas as defence. And now to take a look at the development of the MBT by our Western neighbors. Pakistani experts have apparently drawn a lesson from Indian experience in this field. They avoided the trap of an over estimating know how indigenous R&D&#8221; and industrial base. Fortunately, the bureaucratic working environments in this particular context are far more efficient and responsive in Pakistan with the need to Armed Forces being given a respected look, due partly to their role in
the affairs of the state. 

Reports since last September continue to suggest that Pakistan has not only been implementing an ambitious project to upgrade her existing fleet of Chinese built T-59 tanks, but has also carried out successful production of her MBT prototypes. Besides upgrading its T-59 tanks, which number over 1300, Pakistan has also produced a new upgraded model designated T-69-2MP with a 105mm rifle bore gun and an improved fire control system. T-69-2MP which rolled out from the Heavy Rebuild Factory in December &#8216;90 is to be the Pak Army&#8217;s MBT till a totally new and vastly improved MBT-2000 Khalid, named after the famed Arab Conqueror Khalid Bin Walid, enters the operational service sometime in 1993-94. How did Pakistan acquire such a favorable lead?
Reports in February-March this year in the Pakistani media heralded the successful testing of a modern prototype tank at its Heavy Rebuild Factory (HRF) being redesignated as Heavy Defence Industries in the ancient University township of Taxila almost 40kms North of Islamabad. Project MBT-2000 Khalid is being executed in close collaboration with China&#8217;s NORINCO. A memorandum to this effect was signed between the two countries sometime in the late 80s. According to analysts MBT-2000 Khalid is rated more than a match for the Soviet supplied T-72 tanks held by our army. 

Having completed the design and development of MBT-2000 Khalid project, a number of prototypes have been built for evaluation and trials under different conditions. The preliminary prototype is being handed over to Pakistan Army for field trials in June 1991. General Mirza Aslam Beg, the Pakistan Army Chief, while addressing the annual conference of commanding officers of tank regiments on March 17, 1991, at Nowshera (Ahmed Nagar being its Indian counterpart), further revealed that the production of this tank is expected to commence in 1993. A word, however needs to be mentioned about the Taxila Industrial Complex. This complex has come to be known as the Golden Triangle with its two sides comprising Heavy Mechanical Complex and the heavy Forge and Foundry. Once a total wildness, Taxila has developed into Pakistan&#8217;s single largest heavy industrial complex. 

Together with the Wah Ordnance Factories Complex and further north the Kamra Aeronautical Complex, these reflect Pakistan&#8217;s determination to achieve indigenous industrial development and also that country&#8217;s well-planned efforts for self-reliance in vital areas of defence.
According to military analyst, Pakistan adopted a step-by-step approach towards the manufacture of its MBT-2000 Khalid, and this is the single most important reason for having stolen a march over India. They are of the opinion that the Indian project was too ambitious, whereas Pakistan&#8217;s approach was more systematic comprising the following phases:
Setting up of project 711 in the early 80s to rebuild the Chinese T-59 tanks inducted in Pakistan Army after the 1965 conflict with India. Some 1000 such tanks are being built and 2000 engines of tanks are being produced. 

Project 711 was subsequently expanded and redesignated P-711-K (K in Chinese denotes extension). This project is designed to eliminate need for imported components up to 80 percent. More importantly, on a long term basis, P-711-K has been planned to establish production base for manufacture of complete MBT. It is learnt that once the production line for the MBT 2000 gets established, over 100 such tanks will start rolling out to give Pakistan a level of self-reliance undreamed of earlier. In this entire process (P-711 to 711-K), various series of tanks such as P-70, P-85, and finally P-90 (MBT-2000 Khalid) are being completed in phased manner. 

Pakistan&#8217;s MBT-2000 Khalid will mount a 125mm gun with thermal image converter and will enter Pakistan&#8217;s operational service sometime by the mid-90s thus the T-series of tanks are being progressively converted into P-Series. Maximum effort has been devoted to getting the machine souped up as possible mainly to cut down weight. Just compare the 60 tons Arjun with the maximum 44 tons P-90 khalid. 

Now that T-69-2MP2 has commenced entering Pakistan Army service succeeding the T-59 series and preceding MBT-2000 Khalid, it is essential to mention some details of this tank. It is equipped with 105mm gun with a more powerful engine, special armour for increased protection in the Pakistani built laser range finder and thermal image sighting system to maximize the gun range even in the hours of darkness.

It also has an integrated fire control system for reducing engagement time and increasing accuracy, along with the automatic fire support system. This tank&#8217;s most lethal component, the penetrater ammunition called Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS), is also being indigenously produced. It will not be out of place to mention that bilateral discussions are already underway with USA on the possible co-production of the Abram M1A1 tank which proved its superiority in the recent Gulf war against Iraq. Pakistan has ruled out its purchase and signed an agreement in November &#8216;90 with the US company General Dynamics for establishing a rebuild factory for M-Series of tracked vehicles (M-47, M-45A2, M-68, A3 and M-113 and others). 

This project has been designated P-87. Currently, a series of such closely related projects to manufacture hull, turret, gun barrels and engines are in various stages of planning-execution. All these will finally merged into a tank manufacturing factory that will produce MBT-2000 Khalid.

A comparison of the approaches on the production of MBT-2000 by India and Pakistan clearly highlights that in such areas where both research and development, as also the industrial base of a reasonably high level do not exist, it is in the overall interest of the country as also its armed forces that we should shed our political obsessions, bureaucratic ineptitude and the overestimated vanity of our DRDO. It can surely save the country vast amount of scarce funds while, at the same time , giving our armed forces the best weapons system. With the changes in Soviet Union and Eastern Europe , we definitely need to review our earlier approach in the sphere.

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## BATMAN

Devendra said:


> Oh ****. India going to loose war against pakistan. We indians better hide somewhere. Lol hahaha



What made you think like that? Why don't you consider peace with your neighbors? It is as simple as minding your own bussines and stop competing with Pakistan!
Don't let arjun loose your heart! it is little late but finally a day will come when all Russian tanks of india will be repalced by arjun.
if Pakistan can do it, india can also do it. 
buckup india! bravo Pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Threads merged


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## nitesh

some good news for arjun
outlookindia.com | wired

The winter trials of Arjun battle tanks were not a failure and 124 of these would be inducted into the Army by the end of the current fiscal, Government informed the Rajya Sabha today.

Replying to supplementaries during Question Hour, Defence Minister A K Antony admitted that there has been a delay in the project development of the main battle tank (MBT) as it was first taken up in August 1972.

However, "there is no question of any sabotage behind its delay and the winter (December 2007) trials were successful," the Minister said.

He said the project "was approved by Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs (CCPA) in March 1974... The project was successfully completed as MBT Arjun and closed in March 1995 at the end of 10 years with delivery of 12 prototypes and 15 pre-production series tanks".

These tanks have covered 70,000 km of automotive trials and fired 7,000 rounds of ammunition cumulatively with an average of 4,600 km and 460 rounds per tank, he said. "Only after successful trials, Army placed an indent for 124 MBT Arjun (tanks) to Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000."

He told the Upper House that 14 tanks have been handed over to Army and 85 tanks are under various stages of production. Out of 14 tanks delivered to Army, two tanks have undergone Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials in five phases from December 2007 onwards.

"Certain defects were observed ... Which have been analysed and rectified," he said.

Replying to another supplementary, the Defence Minister said though T-90 tanks are cheaper than Arjun, but India is focussing towards increasing the usage of indigenous tanks.

"Arjun tanks have better power to weight ratio, but we need both types of tanks for the Army. We are trying to have more and more Indian-made components in Arjun tanks ... And rely less on imports," Antony said.

On concerns about the delay in various projects of DRDO, Antony said some projects have got delayed due to various reasons, but at the same time, there have been success stories too.


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## p2prada

Great!!!
The tank is better than the T series from russia.

So, Scrap the tank. Design a new one. Those damn Army policy makers should get their act together and send in a new requirement for a new generation tank. Atleast a sloping turret. If the Arjun could stop HEAT shells at point blank firing distance from a T-90, kudos to them. Now make them immune to depleted uranium shells too. 

Whats the Army doing??????


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## nitesh

^^ I can't understand what r u trying to say here. Can you please elaborate


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## p2prada

nitesh said:


> ^^ I can't understand what r u trying to say here. Can you please elaborate



I meant that the tank is good. But, there are some design features like the gun turret which are still old. Like the rectangular armour for the turret while the M1, LA2 etc have sloped turrets to reduce the damage from hits.

Anyways the tank is a little too late. Very late. This time overrun does not comply with the armies requirements anymore. Which is obvious. DRDO needs to start developing a whole new tank. But, the army has still not given the requirements for a new next generation tank for the DRDO to work on since 2006.

In the end, DRDO is not doing any work. ARJUN has no buyers. And the Army policy makers are sitting on their a**es doin nothing.

As for my line _"Now make them immune to depleted uranium shells too."_
I am just showing my frustration about DRDO claiming to make a more advanced ARJUN MK2, which will again get the same reception.

Time to build a new tank.


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## p2prada

DRDO is only trying to force the tank down the armies throat to cover for the losses incurred during ARJUN's R&D work. 

The army is asking for a better tank for the future, which is obvious.

What is the army going to do with a tank with the same capabilities as the T-90, except being bigger and stronger, 20 years down the line. There will be no difference in the technologies.

New generation tanks will have a curved body to prevent laser targeting. More deadly guns with a faster rate of fire. Better armour protection. Will also be lighter due to incorporation of composites. Will be faster too. ARJUN or even ARJUN MK2 will not satisfy these criterias.


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## nitesh

See it is easy to blame the R&D establishment. Keep changing the GSQR also hadn't helped the cause. But see the NAVY how they are happy with DRDO work. You need to accept a product and keep modifying it. No need to run for foreign vendors all the time. Army is asking for a better tank. So why they are not able to finalize there requirement? Army wants to have more then 3500 tanks in it's armory. Why not discard some old T 72's and use arjun's indeed? All in all it has became a major farce but the end is nearing. The summer and winter trials are successful now so 12 are getting inducted. Some more orders will be given and work on next version will start.


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## p2prada

nitesh said:


> See it is easy to blame the R&D establishment. Keep changing the GSQR also hadn't helped the cause. But see the NAVY how they are happy with DRDO work. You need to accept a product and keep modifying it. No need to run for foreign vendors all the time. Army is asking for a better tank. So why they are not able to finalize there requirement? Army wants to have more then 3500 tanks in it's armory. Why not discard some old T 72's and use arjun's indeed? All in all it has became a major farce but the end is nearing. The summer and winter trials are successful now so 12 are getting inducted. Some more orders will be given and work on next version will start.



Dont compare the navy to the airforce and the army. The ship building in india is satisfactory enough. The navy is happy only cause the R&D work on the ships take the same time as done in other countries. 

The airforce asked for a fighter by 2003. But, they take deliveries in 2015. 

The army asked for a tank by 1999. They get it in 2008.

The requirements will obviously change. The R&D departments never completed the products in time. 

The army always submit new requirements even to the russians, who always see through it to the end.
For eg: the su-30MKI, will have a new engine, new radar and a new fire control system by 2010. Do u think DRDO can make such a promise to IAF in such a short time. Its impossible. The army and the airforce requirements will always change faster than the navy's.

Secondly, the navy is much more technologically advanced than the PLAN (atleast for now). They also have a concrete road for future aquisitions. The same cannot be said of the army and the airforce. 



> Why not discard some old T 72's and use arjun's indeed?


There are no "old" T-72s. All T-72s are undergoing the RHINO upgrades which make them as lethal as T-90s.

Plus, the ARJUN is a HMTB, at 58 tons. It is not easy for any army on the planet to just induct heavy tanks and not make changes in operation and logistics. Do u expect the army to change its supply logistics for just a few hundred tanks. It is simply too expensive and utterly useless in peace time.

ARJUN is way better than the T-90. But it is simply too late.


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## Nihat

Perhaps DRDO is doing too much at the same time - The missile defense programme , Arjun , LCA etc etc.

It would be much better off taking it one by one and on a priority basis maybe starting with the LCA project and making sure of one squadron posted in the south within the next one year or so.


then take up an all new tank project because no matter their upgrades the Arjun is still outdated.


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## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Dont compare the navy to the airforce and the army. The ship building in india is satisfactory enough. The navy is happy only cause the R&D work on the ships take the same time as done in other countries.



Do you know what is the reason behind that? They don't change the requirement midway. 


> The airforce asked for a fighter by 2003. But, they take deliveries in 2015.


Please read the post no. 603 in LCA thread. The main reason is change in requirement. You can't hit the moving target. You have to induct a platform and improve on it.



> The army asked for a tank by 1999. They get it in 2008.


Just google how many times the GSQR have been changed.



> The requirements will obviously change. The R&D departments never completed the products in time.


Then you will forever do the R&D only and never get any product.



> The army always submit new requirements even to the russians, who always see through it to the end.


Oh this one is brilliant then why keep DRDO only? Cut the crap now.



> For eg: the su-30MKI, will have a new engine, new radar and a new fire control system by 2010. Do u think DRDO can make such a promise to IAF in such a short time. Its impossible. The army and the airforce requirements will always change faster than the navy's.


Why can't this be done with LCA? There is obvious difference between our R&D base and Russians. So again you are saying that DRDO is not required only when senctions are there then you do own work. Like iSRO cryogenic engines. We could not have made our own if there were no sanctions. Heard about param series of computers. Again cut the crap. And please prove your point here. What ever the crap you have said.



> Secondly, the navy is much more technologically advanced than the PLAN (atleast for now). They also have a concrete road for future aquisitions. The same cannot be said of the army and the airforce.


You know the reason behind that? Obviously no. DRDO has worked and delivered.



> There are no "old" T-72s. All T-72s are undergoing the RHINO upgrades which make them as lethal as T-90s.


Prove your point



> Plus, the ARJUN is a HMTB, at 58 tons. It is not easy for any army on the planet to just induct heavy tanks and not make changes in operation and logistics. Do u expect the army to change its supply logistics for just a few hundred tanks. It is simply too expensive and utterly useless in peace time.


Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.



> ARJUN is way better than the T-90. But it is simply too late.



You have to accept the product and keep improving it.

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## nitesh

Nihat said:


> Perhaps DRDO is doing too much at the same time - The missile defense programme , Arjun , LCA etc etc.
> 
> It would be much better off taking it one by one and on a priority basis maybe starting with the LCA project and making sure of one squadron posted in the south within the next one year or so.
> 
> 
> then take up an all new tank project because no matter their upgrades the Arjun is still outdated.



So work only in one thing this is another brilliance shown. Arjunis outdated? How prove it.


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## p2prada

Nihat said:


> Perhaps DRDO is doing too much at the same time - The missile defense programme , Arjun , LCA etc etc.



DRDO is not doing too much dude. They can easily handle this much and more. There was a report a year ago which said that DRDO is working on 400+ products.



> then take up an all new tank project because no matter their upgrades the Arjun is still outdated.



ARJUN is a good tank and as much or even more advanced than the T-90. But, its a late product.


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## Nihat

nitesh said:


> So work only in one thing this is another brilliance shown. Arjunis outdated? How prove it.





> Indian Army to freeze Arjun MBT orders at 124 news
> 07 July 2008
> 
> New Delhi: Bringing a long festering internal debate back into public focus, the Indian Army has now said that it would not increase the size of its orders for the Arjun Main Battle Tank. It has placed an order for 124 of these indigenously developed tanks with the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi. *According to the Army's director general (mechanised forces) Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj,is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT." "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted.* That
> 
> Lt Gen Bharadwaj was speaking on the sidelines of an interactive session with defence private industry at CII here. According to Gen Bharadwaj,* "Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for a technologically advanced, next generation warfare some two decades hence."*
> 
> The Arjun debate has become increasingly confusing, and bitter, as various parties involved, such as the DRDO (developing agency), Indian Army (end user) and even the ministry of defence, which has over all responsibility for all matters related to defence, have hurled charges and counter charges at each other.
> 
> While reports keep emerging about the Arjun being a 'dud,' equally emphatic statements challenging such assertions also emerge  in the recent past, quite surprisingly, from within the confines of the ministry of defence itself.
> 
> In a nutshell, while the votaries for the Arjun tank claim that this is a thoroughly updated, and lethal, weapons platform which sports all contemporary features, its critics trundle out oft-heard complaints of shoddy quality and outdated features. What is indeed certain is that the Indian Army is yet to carry out the promised comparative trials of the Arjun MBT with contemporary systems already inducted for service, such as the T-72 and the T-90S MBTs. Such a 'shoot-out' would indeed have provided a lot of answers to old questions.
> 
> The Army has already increased its orders for Russian T-90S tanks by another 330 units, which it ordered last year, over and above the 1000 it already has on order.
> 
> Meanwhile, Gen Bharadwaj also announced that the Army, along with CII, would organize a two-day international technology seminar on Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) here on 22 and 23 July to discuss global challenges in designing, developing and producing FMBT and FICV.
> 
> Gen Bhardwaj said the seminar would debate the kind of MBT the Army needed, considering that might of the military was judged by both deterrent and offensive capabilities of mechanized forces and on the quality and quantity of equipment.
> 
> "Time has come to reassess our requirements. We are at the threshold of formulating qualitative requirements of FMBT and FICV. This is the future, as it takes about a decade for completing the process of designing and being ready with a prototype of FMBT and FICV. It could take another 5 to 10 years to finally induct futuristic MBTs and ICVs into the forces," he said.
> 
> The meeting would also provide defence planners, end-users, scientists and both private and public defence manufacturers a holistic view of applicability of tanks, be they heavy, medium or light, and wheeled or tracked vehicles in modern warfare.
> 
> "Considering India's expanding strategic reach and widening global standing as a military power, future armored vehicles should be capable of performing roles during out-of-area contingencies beyond its territorial boundaries," Bharadwaj said.
> 
> The meet would also try to provide defence industry an insight into the aspirations of the mechanized forces and try to gauge their capability to meet Army's future requirements.
> 
> Apart from looking at varying global perceptions on use of armored vehicles, the seminar would identify critical emerging technologies in the field to meet Army's requirements of FMBT and FICV. Already, seven foreign countries have confirmed their participation in the seminar including US, Israel, Russia, Germany, UK and France.



It's a slightly old article but relavent none the less , maybe it's not outdated as I put it but whats for sure is that it is definatly behind it's time and the Army limiting it's order definatly shows that DRDO stalled this an awful lot.


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## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Do you know what is the reason behind that? They don't change the requirement midway.


It doesn' matter. The russians always show a tested product.



> Please read the post no. 603 in LCA thread. The main reason is change in requirement. You can't hit the moving target. You have to induct a platform and improve on it.



The article doesnot post information about any change in requirement. The program director keeps saying that all criteria in the ASR have not yet been fully mastered. 
500-600 more flights are still required to validate 3000 more test points. It means the LCA is still not a full fledged fighter. Do u expect the IAF to induct a fighter which only has a 20 degrees AOA. Far from it, no engine either. 

All of IAF change in requirements are based on avionics. The plane has to fly first for the changes to take effect.

The program director keeps saying that ASR has not been fully met. 

The russians, US etc are providing fully tested aircraft with state of the art avionics. Its not like the IAF has no other options except the LCA. The IAF will obviously expect the LCA to be as good as a F-16 or a Mig-35. 

The IAF are customers. They are not going to feel *pity* for DRDO and buy substandard aircraft. Will you buy a Maruti 800 instead of the NANO to protect Maruti.

Stop trying to protect DRDO out of pity for their "hard work." They still need to catch up to the world to offer military products to the Indian armed forces. They need to provide products that are on par or superior to US, Israeli and russian products. Then DRDO is IN.




> Just google how many times the GSQR have been changed.


But, have DRDO been able to deliver with the changed requirements. It is only an EXCUSE by DRDO.




> Then you will forever do the R&D only and never get any product.


Do you know Lockheed Martin spent billions on their product and they were rejected for Boeing's YF-22. Do u see American public cry foul over rejecting Lockheed?
Do u see the russian public crying foul for rejecting the Mig and going with Sukhoi for their FGFA?




> Oh this one is brilliant then why keep DRDO only? Cut the crap now.


Did I say DRDO is not required. They are required But they cannot deliver. They have to try harder. Make more products, even if the services does not choose them. Sell products that appeal to the services and work on others that are rejected. Why do u think India has no R&D industry. It is because R&D investments have no returns. There are no profits. And more importantly, Indian R&D cannot *compete* in the global market. There are always better products out there. All that we have done is *participate*.

DRDO can handle loss just like ONGC or IOL or any other state owned company. Have DRDO design more fighters and tanks. State of the Art designs that are on par with the rest of the world. Then we can talk.

Look at the russian Mig-35. There are no buyers. So, what did the russians design the OLS and AESA radar for?? What is the use of changing Mig-29's airframe?? It is the harsh reality of R&D. Grow up and get used to it.




> Why can't this be done with LCA? *There is obvious difference between our R&D base and Russians.* So again you are saying that DRDO is not required only when senctions are there then you do own work.



Exactly. Do u want IAF with a "not yet ready" LCA or a fully equipped Su-30MKI. IAF has other suppliers. They will buy from the best.



> Like iSRO cryogenic engines. We could not have made our own if there were no sanctions. Heard about param series of computers. Again cut the crap. And please prove your point here. What ever the crap you have said.



ISROs cryogenic engines are still in the lab. Lets talk about them in 2010, when they will be first used.

Param Series. How many do u know that have broken the top 10 list. Building A supercomputer is good. But, building the BEST supercomputer is something else.

Thats what DRDO has done. They built A plane. They built A tank. But, IAF and IA are choosing from the BEST planes and the BEST tanks. Do u want them to buy anything lesser than the best available?

Cryogenic engines and supercomputers are not for sale to India. So, that is a completely different topic.



> You know the reason behind that? Obviously no. DRDO has worked and delivered.



They made promises. They made deliveries. So what?
What was accepted from DRDO like Ballistic missiles etc are stuff that the services cannot buy from other places. US and Russia will not offer ballistic missiles.
What is being rejected by the services is stuff that they can buy from other places with much more advanced features. US and Russia are offering some of their best birds and tanks.




> Prove your point


Should that be enough.




> Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.


Stop posting useless questions. Does this relate to R&D or ARJUN.

Do u think we are actually at peace. Look at kashmir, NE, naxals, China, pak, BD, Myanmar etc. Even then, isnt it the sovereign right of any country to field an army. Even Singapore and Iceland.
Our Army is also used for relief work during quakes. 

An army is used to prevent hostilities both within and outside a country.



> You have to accept the product and keep improving it.



Not if you can get a better product elsewhere and with better improvements.
[You actually sound like a communist with your last line.] Why does the services HAVE to buy products from DRDO? Especially when they are not good enough.

Will you accept it if some baker is trying to stuff your mouth with bread that you dont want. Will you accept it if some door to door salesman is forcing you to buy something you dont want.

So, Why support DRDO stuffing the throats of the services with useless things. Only the communists do that.(read China)


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## p2prada

> Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.



Try to understand the context. Do u know how the TIGER tanks(Germany) came into existence during WW2. These were heavy tanks. They were good. But, they needed significantly more fuel than panzers. They needed large transports. They needed re-training of tank crews. New command and control structure by newly trained technicians under newly promoted brigadiers. They needed to formulate new strategies and novel ideas to use a new tank. They needed more manpower to supply the new tanks. They needed to re-train mechanics and other support crews. They needed new factories to make new shells. They needed HUGE investments to make way for a wholly new weapon. These HUGE investments are only available during war times, not peace times. 

Can you tell me that except the US, how many other countries are fielding heavy MBTs and how many are in service in those countries. 

UK, France, and Germany. They have defence budgets significantly larger than India and have tanks significantly lesser than india. These 3 countries have only 400 odd heavy MBTs each in their tank inventories.
UK = 386 Challenger II
Germany = 408 Leopard 2
France = 406 Leclerc

Do u expect India to have 3500 smaller tanks and still manage to have 500 ARJUNs on a relatively smaller budget especially during PEACE TIME.

You cant change logistics for the ARJUN today and then make an entirely new doctrine for a new generation tank 10 or 15 years later. No army in the world can face such a sudden change. It is not like the IA can *simply* buy 500 ARJUNs to keep DRDO happy and the population in high spirits.

Think logically. The IA have no need for ARJUNs. They need a whole new tank. A tank that surpasses T-72, T-90 and ARJUN and can also be called one of the best in the world.


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## nitesh

Nihat said:


> It's a slightly old article but relavent none the less , maybe it's not outdated as I put it but whats for sure is that it is definatly behind it's time and the Army limiting it's order definatly shows that DRDO stalled this an awful lot.



Just google and you will come to know that DGMF is not able to freeze the requirement from 2 years about how the fmbt will be. So except some farce in this fmbt too.


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> I meant that the tank is good. But, there are some design features like the gun turret which are still old. Like the rectangular armour for the turret while the M1, LA2 etc have sloped turrets to reduce the damage from hits.



P2PRADA kindly read and understand as to why Arjuns Turrent is straight instead of being angular. The composite arrangement in Arjun is such that having strainght armour means less area of exposure to armour and less damage to tiles. However the arrangement in MIA1 and MIA2 is different. This point has been debated to death by senior tankers and it is now well known that straight armour in Arjun is there for a specific reason " the ability to provide best possible armour protection and take hits".



> Anyways the tank is a little too late. Very late. This time overrun does not comply with the armies requirements anymore. Which is obvious. DRDO needs to start developing a whole new tank. But, the army has still not given the requirements for a new next generation tank for the DRDO to work on since 2006.



How come late , we are still buying T90's even if we ever went for superior western tanks I don't think the advantage will be very great Vis a Vi Arjun.



> In the end, *DRDO is not doing any work*. ARJUN has no buyers. And the Army policy makers are sitting on their a**es doin nothing



This is total BS, cut the crap . CVRDE has done a yeomen job . Read and read more before you post. 

IPF


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## nitesh

p2prada said:


> It doesn' matter. The russians always show a tested product.


Check out how much T 90 was tested and how DRDO had helped in correcting there shooting ability. Now DGMF (I am stopping using the army term because I don't want to mix the common soldiers with the DGMF) wants to have AC in T 90 because the electronics fail in the heat of desert whereas arjun electronics work in heat without the AC. 



> The article doesnot post information about any change in requirement. The program director keeps saying that all criteria in the ASR have not yet been fully mastered.
> 500-600 more flights are still required to validate 3000 more test points. It means the LCA is still not a full fledged fighter. Do u expect the IAF to induct a fighter which only has a 20 degrees AOA. Far from it, no engine either.
> 
> All of IAF change in requirements are based on avionics. The plane has to fly first for the changes to take effect.
> 
> The program director keeps saying that ASR has not been fully met.


The answer for this is just google the things before jumping in to conclusions . You have read the article right what it said was the LCA was a technology demonstrator and now getting a reality so it is not DELAYED as the media is running around. Regarding AoA the IOC is 20 degree and FOC is 22 degree. Check the kaveri program it has achieved a thrust of 83-85KN of afterburner thrust that is the same as the GE engine currently in use but they want 100KN engine. Check this in GTRE site about kaveri. But kaveri is getting used by Navy. So we are going to have our engines for our ships.



> The russians, US etc are providing fully tested aircraft with state of the art avionics. Its not like the IAF has no other options except the LCA. The IAF will obviously expect the LCA to be as good as a F-16 or a Mig-35.


Check the history of F 16 A/B models they were famous to be known as widow makers but now they are one of the most feared planes? Do you know a simple reason why? Because forces supported the program.
Hope you are getting the point.



> The IAF are customers. They are not going to feel *pity* for DRDO and buy substandard aircraft. Will you buy a Maruti 800 instead of the NANO to protect Maruti.


Read the response above. And stop BS



> Stop trying to protect DRDO out of pity for their "hard work." They still need to catch up to the world to offer military products to the Indian armed forces. They need to provide products that are on par or superior to US, Israeli and russian products. Then DRDO is IN.


This is the worst excuse I have ever heard. Are you out of your mind here. 
Then decimate the DRDO why you need it? Again cut the crap.



> But, have DRDO been able to deliver with the changed requirements. It is only an EXCUSE by DRDO.


Read the response above.



> Do you know Lockheed Martin spent billions on their product and they were rejected for Boeing's YF-22. Do u see American public cry foul over rejecting Lockheed?


Exactly and how much DRDO is spending? Again cut the crap.



> Do u see the russian public crying foul for rejecting the Mig and going with Sukhoi for their FGFA?


They have merged there capabilities to make a plane. Check the FGFA history.



> Did I say DRDO is not required. They are required But they cannot deliver. They have to try harder. Make more products, even if the services does not choose them. Sell products that appeal to the services and work on others that are rejected. Why do u think India has no R&D industry. It is because R&D investments have no returns. There are no profits. And more importantly, Indian R&D cannot *compete* in the global market. There are always better products out there. All that we have done is *participate*.


This clearly shows how arrogant you are. Do you head about pinaka? At what investment it is made? And you know Israel wants to collaborate in that project. Do you know the reason? Do you heard about ALH at what investment it is made? Do you heard about the Ready to eat food that you get in all the shops? It was made by DRDO for the soldiers and now they have given those tech to the companies like MTR and all. And now that revenue is getting used for funding the projects? Do you know about the life saving materials developed for high altitude operations? Do you know the composites used in LCA have a spin off that the people who lost there legs now get a very light legs because of the composites developed for use in LCA has found a way here. Do you know the the computers built for LCA has given birth to the "vikram" processors which are used in our GSLV and PSLV for guidance. And heard about the "Mayavi" EW suite developed for LCA? Check why israel is interest din it. Check the tech focus of DRDO of last 3 months in there site. Check on which stage they are for GaN based electronics. 



> DRDO can handle loss just like ONGC or IOL or any other state owned company. Have DRDO design more fighters and tanks. State of the Art designs that are on par with the rest of the world. Then we can talk.


Useless troll, check the response above.



> Look at the russian Mig-35. There are no buyers. So, what did the russians design the OLS and AESA radar for?? What is the use of changing Mig-29's airframe?? It is the harsh reality of R&D. Grow up and get used to it.


From how many time the MiG29 is around? So what is supposed to be done here. Do you know that the lack heavily in composite technology. just google about our involvement in there FGFA and you will come to know what i am talking about here. Google why Israel is giving orders for composite material from India for use in UAV's.



> Exactly. Do u want IAF with a "not yet ready" LCA or a fully equipped Su-30MKI. IAF has other suppliers. They will buy from the best.


Define "The Best" which will be "The Best" forever



> ISROs cryogenic engines are still in the lab. Lets talk about them in 2010, when they will be first used.


From where you come across such things?



> Param Series. How many do u know that have broken the top 10 list. Building A supercomputer is good. But, building the BEST supercomputer is something else.


What do you want here? You wnat to be US in some time? You know how much funding those organizations get? You arrogant people will just ask for "The Best" then why don't you go and live in "The Best" country f)(* off from here. Useless cribbers



> Thats what DRDO has done. They built A plane. They built A tank. But, IAF and IA are choosing from the BEST planes and the BEST tanks. Do u want them to buy anything lesser than the best available?


Do you know that russians have a rule that come what may they will use only russian product? What is the reason behind that? Come what may they will support there industry. But because of BrahMos success they are changing the rule. Now only BrahMos is getting inducted in to there navy. Guess what is the reason? 



> Cryogenic engines and supercomputers are not for sale to India. So, that is a completely different topic.
> 
> They made promises. They made deliveries. So what?
> What was accepted from DRDO like Ballistic missiles etc are stuff that the services cannot buy from other places. US and Russia will not offer ballistic missiles.
> What is being rejected by the services is stuff that they can buy from other places with much more advanced features. US and Russia are offering some of their best birds and tanks.


Exactly ban the sale of everything and you will see every desi maal getting accepted.



> Should that be enough.


I think I replied enough



> Stop posting useless questions. Does this relate to R&D or ARJUN.


You stopp questioning about capabilities of professionals and I will stop. what do you think you are who is question the credibility of some scientist?



> Do u think we are actually at peace. Look at kashmir, NE, naxals, China, pak, BD, Myanmar etc. Even then, isnt it the sovereign right of any country to field an army. Even Singapore and Iceland.
> Our Army is also used for relief work during quakes.


You answered it correctly. We need indigenous capabilities as well. Everything is necessary. And regarding the technology developed founding the way in civilian spaces. I have answered already.



> An army is used to prevent hostilities both within and outside a country.


And the technologies developed indigenously gives you the capabilities to use the equipments used by Army without any sections.



> Not if you can get a better product elsewhere and with better improvements.
> [You actually sound like a communist with your last line.] Why does the services HAVE to buy products from DRDO? Especially when they are not good enough.


Then you are saying there is no need for developing anything right? Comeon show some rationality. Don't behave like an immature kid.



> Will you accept it if some baker is trying to stuff your mouth with bread that you dont want. Will you accept it if some door to door salesman is forcing you to buy something you dont want.
> So, Why support DRDO stuffing the throats of the services with useless things. Only the communists do that.(read China)


this is pure BS.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> What is the army going to do with a tank *with the same capabilities as the T-90,* except being bigger and stronger, 20 years down the line. There will be no difference in the technologies.



Superior Armour, Superior gun, Superior electronics(Lot of ISRAELI INPUTS HAVE GONE), Superior crew protection, Superior crew control, Superior Suspension(Hydro Pneumatic instead of torsion, which means incrased gun stability at highers speed compared to T90). If these do not count then I don't understand whct counts superior to you. 

IPF


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> *p2prada*
> The army always submit new requirements even to the russians, who always see through it to the end.



Because the Russian know how is much more then ours, thanks to years and years of research and hard work. If we don't start today we will be still deending on Russians and Americans for the next two generations to come.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Check out how much T 90 was tested and how DRDO had helped in correcting there shooting ability. Now DGMF (I am stopping using the army term because I don't want to mix the common soldiers with the DGMF) wants to have AC in T 90 because the electronics fail in the heat of desert whereas arjun electronics work in heat without the AC.



I dont deny it.




> The answer for this is just google the things before jumping in to conclusions . You have read the article right what it said was the LCA was a technology demonstrator and now getting a reality so it is not DELAYED as the media is running around. Regarding AoA the IOC is 20 degree and FOC is 22 degree. Check the kaveri program it has achieved a thrust of 83-85KN of afterburner thrust that is the same as the GE engine currently in use but they want 100KN engine. Check this in GTRE site about kaveri. But kaveri is getting used by Navy. So we are going to have our engines for our ships.



Good for the navy. But I want to see it on the LCA. It is easier to design a gas turbine engine for ships. Different for planes.




> Check the history of F 16 A/B models they were famous to be known as widow makers but now they are one of the most feared planes? Do you know a simple reason why? Because forces supported the program.
> Hope you are getting the point.



At the time the F-16s came out. There was NO FIGHTER capable of matching it outside the US. Call the F-16 what you want in the 70s. Nevertheless, it was the BEST fighter in the air at that time. The same cannot be said of the LCA.



> Exactly and how much DRDO is spending? Again cut the crap.


Nice, remember this line. I will elaborate on it further. 




> They have merged there capabilities to make a plane. Check the FGFA history.



Thats not the point. The fact is the MIG corporation only worked on the aerodynamics aspect of the fighter. Something that was completely abandoned. Mig is now forced to work on the T-50, Sukhoi's designs. Meaning they were kicked out of their own progrm.




> This clearly shows how arrogant you are. Do you head about pinaka? At what investment it is made? And you know Israel wants to collaborate in that project. Do you know the reason? Do you heard about ALH at what investment it is made? Do you heard about the Ready to eat food that you get in all the shops? It was made by DRDO for the soldiers and now they have given those tech to the companies like MTR and all. And now that revenue is getting used for funding the projects? Do you know about the life saving materials developed for high altitude operations? Do you know the composites used in LCA have a spin off that the people who lost there legs now get a very light legs because of the composites developed for use in LCA has found a way here. Do you know the the computers built for LCA has given birth to the "vikram" processors which are used in our GSLV and PSLV for guidance. And heard about the "Mayavi" EW suite developed for LCA? Check why israel is interest din it. Check the tech focus of DRDO of last 3 months in there site. Check on which stage they are for GaN based electronics.



A few successes by DRDO in other fields doesnot mean the army have to buy the ARJUNs. 




> From how many time the MiG29 is around? So what is supposed to be done here. Do you know that the lack heavily in composite technology. just google about our involvement in there FGFA and you will come to know what i am talking about here. Google why Israel is giving orders for composite material from India for use in UAV's.



If composites are the only reason to buy a fighter then why not build Bi-planes from the 30s and fly around. We still need to develop so many things. 30% of Chandrayaan I electronics are of american origin.




> Define "The Best" which will be "The Best" forever



This makes no sense



> From where you come across such things?



Nice can you tell me where the "indian" cryogenic engines have been applied. They are still in the LABS. Go check it out for yourself. I was in ISRO only last month. Off course you cant enter unless you are a college student, or in the military.




> What do you want here? You wnat to be US in some time? You know how much funding those organizations get? You arrogant people will just ask for "The Best" then why don't you go and live in "The Best" country f)(* off from here. Useless cribbers



Stop making useless points. What makes you think US is the best country. Stop trying to judge ppl you have no idea about over a completely different topic. 




> Do you know that russians have a rule that come what may they will use only russian product? What is the reason behind that? Come what may they will support there industry. But because of BrahMos success they are changing the rule. Now only BrahMos is getting inducted in to there navy. Guess what is the reason?



One useful spinoff out of an existing technology. We developed guidance. The russians developed the engine and the seeker. Stop giving Brahmos as proof of your point. Most of the technology in the BRahmos is russian. Even now we need the russians to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.



> Exactly ban the sale of everything and you will see every desi maal getting accepted.



And watch your army turning from hero to zero. Sell this line after some 30 years, then people will buy. We are not as idiotic as the chinese. Even they passed a law saying they will only buy indigenously made products and still continue to source russian engines.




> I think I replied enough



You did not. All you were doing was make fun of me and post points that are completely irrevelant to WHY THE ARMY MUST BUY ARJUNs. All you were saying is DRDO can make ready to eat food so they are good.
This is hardly a discussion.




> You stopp questioning about capabilities of professionals and I will stop. what do you think you are who is question the credibility of some scientist?



I have every right to question the credibility of any damn scientist as I want. This is DEMOCRACY if you have forgotten. I have a right to know where my tax money goes.




> You answered it correctly. We need indigenous capabilities as well. Everything is necessary. And regarding the technology developed founding the way in civilian spaces. I have answered already.



We need indigenous capabilities. *I have continously said that the ARJUN is superior to the T-90*(3 posts). But, this superiority doesnot mean we can readily invest in the ARJUN. 




> And the technologies developed indigenously gives you the capabilities to use the equipments used by Army without any sections.


We are still far away from this to happen.




> Then you are saying there is no need for developing anything right? Comeon show some rationality. Don't behave like an immature kid.



How many times do i have to tell you. 

DRDO *HAS TO DEVELOP MORE PLANES AND TANKS* TO REACH THE SAME KIND OF EXPERTISE THAT ANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION CAN GIVE TO THEIR OWN ARMY'S. 

Do you even read my posts?

DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE THAN JUST THE LCA AND ARJUN. THEY HAVE TO KEEP DEVELOPING EVEN IF THERE ARE NO BUYERS. MEANING THEY CAN HANDLE LOSS, EVEN IF NOBODY BUYS ARJUN AND LCA.

I have already said this. I know exactly how many achievements DRDO has made. But, it doesnot mean the ARMY has to buy a tank they may not necessarily be able to maintain. Dont bit off more than you can chew. You will only CHOKE.




> this is pure BS.


Brilliant assertion.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> I dont deny it.


So then what is the problem in accepting the arjun with some defects? No because it is russian it can be accepted or what?



> Good for the navy. But I want to see it on the LCA. It is easier to design a gas turbine engine for ships. Different for planes.


So ship engines are useless things? The requirement was for 90KN it achieved 83-85Kn but rejected GE was chosed which gives the same as kaveri? Why not chosen the kaveri? You know the eurojet gives a max of 92-95KN thrust but it is in race for next batch of engines of which the requirement is for 100KN. 



> At the time the F-16s came out. There was NO FIGHTER capable of matching it outside the US. Call the F-16 what you want in the 70s. Nevertheless, it was the BEST fighter in the air at that time. The same cannot be said of the LCA.


Why not bring out the LCA and improve over it. The plain concept for which it is built. To replace the MiG 21 with 2 ton of payload only A2A and work on A2G in later batches. Check the recent news's it is coming out with 2052 which is an AESA. Why so much of things getting cramped in to it?



> Nice, remember this line. I will elaborate on it further.


Do elaborate it



> Thats not the point. The fact is the MIG corporation only worked on the aerodynamics aspect of the fighter. Something that was completely abandoned. Mig is now forced to work on the T-50, Sukhoi's designs. Meaning they were kicked out of their own progrm.


So what's the point they were not able to make a plane right. That is why that was abandoned.



> A few successes by DRDO in other fields doesnot mean the army have to buy the ARJUNs.


You are running in circles. Come to some point and discuss. Cut the nonsense rents.




> If composites are the only reason to buy a fighter then why not build Bi-planes from the 30s and fly around. We still need to develop so many things. 30% of Chandrayaan I electronics are of american origin.


he he he. So now you will suggest to drop ISRO also right they are are useless bunch right. They were not able to this do that. So they are useless. it is about seeing the glass is half empty or half full. 



> Nice can you tell me where the "indian" cryogenic engines have been applied. They are still in the LABS. Go check it out for yourself. I was in ISRO only last month. Off course you cant enter unless you are a college student, or in the military.


Now this is useless crap. So with which engine they are going above?




> Stop making useless points. What makes you think US is the best country. Stop trying to judge ppl you have no idea about over a completely different topic.


Stop making nonsense and you will here a logical reasoning.




> One useful spinoff out of an existing technology. We developed guidance. The russians developed the engine and the seeker. Stop giving Brahmos as proof of your point. Most of the technology in the BRahmos is russian. Even now we need the russians to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.


BrahMos is extension of yakot missile. indians have improved it. But they were not able to induct it although being better then the previous ones. Because if something is better they can't use it they will work on there technology to make it better otherwise they will use the existing ones. That is how the scientists gain the inspiration that ok forces are supporting them and they work hard to improve on things.



> And watch your army turning from hero to zero. Sell this line after some 30 years, then people will buy. We are not as idiotic as the chinese. Even they passed a law saying they will only buy indigenously made products and still continue to source russian engines.


Exactly the point is that you use the things where you lack but don't abandon indigenous programs. Support the domestic industry by buying there products in numbers and improve over it. Check the marveka story.




> You did not. All you were doing was make fun of me and post points that are completely irrevelant to WHY THE ARMY MUST BUY ARJUNs. All you were saying is DRDO can make ready to eat food so they are good.
> This is hardly a discussion.


read the above



> I have every right to question the credibility of any damn scientist as I want. This is DEMOCRACY if you have forgotten. I have a right to know where my tax money goes.


I am questioning the credibility of DGMF (not army) of accepting a product (T 90) which is not up to the mark. Why my tax money is getting wasted on a product which can't work in desert heat. And need AC to function, why it was not tested properly. And now money is getting wasted on AC. And why not use Arjun whose electronics when didn't worked with AC was rejected and not getting selected when it is working without AC. 




> We need indigenous capabilities. *I have continously said that the ARJUN is superior to the T-90*(3 posts). But, this superiority doesnot mean we can readily invest in the ARJUN.


So you are saying that take inferior product.




> DRDO *HAS TO DEVELOP MORE PLANES AND TANKS* TO REACH THE SAME KIND OF EXPERTISE THAT ANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION CAN GIVE TO THEIR OWN ARMY'S.


And how to get it. Give a requirement keep changing it and keep them in continuous trials. Never accept any product in numbers. this is how you are saying. And if any international organization can give better then keep purchasing from them then why we need a domestic organization. Just scrap the organization only. give the money and get what you want internationally.



> DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE THAN JUST THE LCA AND ARJUN. THEY HAVE TO KEEP DEVELOPING EVEN IF THERE ARE NO BUYERS. MEANING THEY CAN HANDLE LOSS, EVEN IF NOBODY BUYS ARJUN AND LCA.


What is the whole fun of developing when no body is buying scrap the whole organization.



> I have already said this. I know exactly how many achievements DRDO has made. But, it doesnot mean the ARMY has to buy a tank they may not necessarily be able to maintain. Dont bit off more than you can chew. You will only CHOKE.


The point is DGMF wants T 90 and want them in 1650 in numbers. yes take it. DGMF wants 600 odd T 72 to get upgraded that is also ok. But DGMF wants to have 3500 of tanks. So why not fill up the numbers with arjun?

Again some basics about a product:

Buyer gives the requirement (Don't keep changing the requirement) and buys them in numbers. Need not to be too high.
Buyer uses the product and suggests improvement.
there is nothing like an invincible product (read tank) which can not be defeated. Everyone has some plus and some negative points. No product is without defects. There is always chances of improvement. The point is to support the industry. There is nothing called THE BEST. Is it so difficult to understand.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> So then what is the problem in accepting the arjun with some defects? No because it is russian it can be accepted or what?



Far from it. The mean life for a tank is between 30-40 years. The ARJUN being inducted now would mean the ARJUN will be used till 2050. But, the IA want a futuristic tank in another 10 maybe 15 years. Jumping from a 40 ton class tank to a 60 ton class tank now is fine. But, reverting to a new generation tank in just 15 years is a logistical nightmare that the IA is not yet equipped to handle. Plus, maintaining a 60 ton tank is very difficult. Similar to the differences in handling a Mig-29 and a Su-30MKI. I have already mentioned it before, the army will have to upgrade its current maintainance centers to handle a tank that will have 4 crews compared to 3 in the T-90. Will guzzle more fuel. Will need new transports. 

It is not easy. The army will have to spend double of what it is already spending on the T-90( a cheaper tank to the ARJUN).




> So ship engines are useless things? The requirement was for 90KN it achieved 83-85Kn but rejected GE was chosed which gives the same as kaveri? Why not chosen the kaveri? You know the eurojet gives a max of 92-95KN thrust but it is in race for next batch of engines of which the requirement is for 100KN.



The kaveri engine on fighters have problems. They are not equipped to fly at high altitudes. Even Snecma is finding it difficult to fix the problems in the kaveri. In one high altitude test, the kaveris blades were broken due to problems that have not yet been revealed. Power is not the only criteria to say if the engine is good or not. Kaveri on ships is a useless topic for this discussion.




> Why not bring out the LCA and improve over it. The plain concept for which it is built. To replace the MiG 21 with 2 ton of payload only A2A and work on A2G in later batches. Check the recent news's it is coming out with 2052 which is an AESA. Why so much of things getting cramped in to it?



LCA is still not ready. How many times do i have to tell you?? It will get its FOC only in 2010. 2 years to go. The IAF wont buy a fighter unless the ASR is achieved.



> So what's the point they were not able to make a plane right. That is why that was abandoned.



NO. It was only because Sukhois design was SUPERIOR. 



> You are running in circles. Come to some point and discuss. Cut the nonsense rents.



LOL You are the one running in circles. Stick to the point. You were giving DRDOs other products as a reason to buy the ARJUN. 




> he he he. So now you will suggest to drop ISRO also right they are are useless bunch right. They were not able to this do that. So they are useless. it is about seeing the glass is half empty or half full.



When did i say that ISRO and DRDO have to give up. Is your knowledge in English that bad. How many times have i already told that DRDO has to continue developing new planes and fighters. same with ISRO. Did i say that the PSLV was american. I only said some satellite components were american. thats all. And you concluded that ISRO must be dropped. NICE.




> Now this is useless crap. So with which engine they are going above?


Russian supplied cryogenic engines that are without TOT. Even the Chinese are using russian cryogenic engines. India has been using russian engines since the 90s and are continuing to do so even now. The indian cryogenic engines have only recently successfully been tested for dry runs. It ran for 720 seconds for the first time.



> Stop making nonsense and you will here a logical reasoning.



LOL so your logic is that we must buy F-16s and go sit in the US or buy LCA and sit in india. Nice.



> BrahMos is extension of yakot missile. *indians have improved it*. But they were not able to induct it although being better then the previous ones. Because if something is better they can't use it they will work on there technology to make it better otherwise they will use the existing ones.



We improved it with russian HELP. And how?? Russia came to us with plans and asked for funding. we were ready. Then the russians told us to develop the guidance and coding for the missile. The russians then went on to develop the seeker and the engine. The russians did all the difficult part. We did the easy ones. Since it was wholly funded in india. It became an indian product. Thats all. They came to us simply bcause they did not have the money. Thats how we got the Brahmos. Simple.



> That is how the scientists gain the inspiration that ok forces are supporting them and they work hard to improve on things.



Scientists don't gain inspiration from the army. Where did you get that from. Scientists always like to test the limits of their knowledge. They are not bothered if the army does not buy their product unless they get the chance and the funding required to complete their research. There have been so many scientists in history who did their research for themselves. They were not bothered about anyone else. Do you think Oppenheimer, the man who invented the atomic bomb, created the atomic bomb with the single hope that the ARMY will USE it. He hated the idea of actually using the bomb. He did it only because he wanted to see how far he can go.



> Exactly the point is that you use the things where you lack but don't abandon indigenous programs. Support the domestic industry by buying there products in numbers and improve over it. Check the marveka story.



The domestic industry is supported anyways. T-90s or ARJUNs. The workers in avadi are working on both.
Like i already said. DRDO can finish the LCA and ARJUN. They can continue to make newer versions. Then once their version is good enough. They can sell to the IAF and IA.





> I am questioning the credibility of DGMF (not army) of accepting a product (T 90) which is not up to the mark. Why my tax money is getting wasted on a product which can't work in desert heat. And need AC to function, why it was not tested properly. And now money is getting wasted on AC. And why not use Arjun whose electronics when didn't worked with AC was rejected and not getting selected when it is working without AC.



The ARJUN cannot handle AC. The present engine is already underpowered. 
T-90s are facing teething problems. So, did the T-72s in the 80s. These problems can be rectified by the russians once production starts.




> So you are saying that take inferior product.



Simply because we dont have the required funds to finance another new tank.





> And how to get it. Give a requirement keep changing it and keep them in continuous trials. Never accept any product in numbers. this is how you are saying. And if any international organization can give better then keep purchasing from them then why we need a domestic organization. Just scrap the organization only. give the money and get what you want internationally.



no point replying to this. I have made myself clear on what DRDO should do very clearly many times.




> What is the whole fun of developing when no body is buying scrap the whole organization.



Oh! Nice! Now it is about FUN and not about capability.




> The point is DGMF wants T 90 and want them in 1650 in numbers. yes take it. DGMF wants 600 odd T 72 to get upgraded that is also ok. But DGMF wants to have 3500 of tanks. So why not fill up the numbers with arjun?



It is not 600 t-72s. It is 1500 T-72s. 
IA has kept the option of keeping the indian version Tank-Ex open for purchase, whenever DRDO delivers it. IA plans to fill up the remaining with Tank-Ex rather than waste money on the ARJUN.



> Again some basics about a product:
> 
> Buyer gives the requirement (Don't keep changing the requirement) and buys them in numbers. Need not to be too high.
> Buyer uses the product and suggests improvement.
> there is nothing like an invincible product (read tank) which can not be defeated. Everyone has some plus and some negative points. No product is without defects. There is always chances of improvement. The point is to support the industry. There is nothing called THE BEST. Is it so difficult to understand.



The positive and negative points are not the same for all tanks. That is what defines the best tank. 

We need a future gen tank. Something that can plug the holes without investing blindly on the ARJUN, which will be termed obsolete only in 10 or 15 years.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Far from it. The mean life for a tank is between 30-40 years. The ARJUN being inducted now would mean the ARJUN will be used till 2050. But, the IA want a futuristic tank in another 10 maybe 15 years. Jumping from a 40 ton class tank to a 60 ton class tank now is fine. But, reverting to a new generation tank in just 15 years is a logistical nightmare that the IA is not yet equipped to handle. Plus, maintaining a 60 ton tank is very difficult. Similar to the differences in handling a Mig-29 and a Su-30MKI. I have already mentioned it before, the army will have to upgrade its current maintainance centers to handle a tank that will have 4 crews compared to 3 in the T-90. Will guzzle more fuel. Will need new transports.
> 
> It is not easy. The army will have to spend double of what it is already spending on the T-90( a cheaper tank to the ARJUN).


This is a very lame excuse how you know that after 15 years it will be useless? This is the worst excuse i have ever heard. MiG 21 it is still getting used. And going to work till 2020. F 16 came in 1970 right now only US air force is getting them retired but others will keep using them till 2030-2035 time line. It is about accepting a product. So according to you the DGMF (not army) which is not ready to upgrade itself from now on will some how magically upgrade after 15 years. t 90 uses 3 crew same as T 72 checked the picture of georgia. There is no chance of any body survival. Arjun has separate compartment so there is a chance of survival. T 55 have 4 men crew which are still in use. You can migrate those crews here. Again it is very easy to run around giving n number of excuses.



> The kaveri engine on fighters have problems. They are not equipped to fly at high altitudes. Even Snecma is finding it difficult to fix the problems in the kaveri. In one high altitude test, the kaveris blades were broken due to problems that have not yet been revealed. Power is not the only criteria to say if the engine is good or not. Kaveri on ships is a useless topic for this discussion.


So what is the solution? Give some solution don't just give excuses. this is R&D boss. you need to give the chance to the product nothing is perfect. 



> LCA is still not ready. How many times do i have to tell you?? It will get its FOC only in 2010. 2 years to go. The IAF wont buy a fighter unless the ASR is achieved.


It is not FOC it is IOC. And the numbers are committed yes let us leave this topic.



> NO. It was only because Sukhois design was SUPERIOR.


At least we agree at some point leave it.



> LOL You are the one running in circles. Stick to the point. You were giving DRDOs other products as a reason to buy the ARJUN.


Obviously it is needed until you accept a product make it in numbers you will never know what is going to come. If DRDO can make a product obviously it has potential to make other things work. Again you can run around with lame excuses.




> When did i say that ISRO and DRDO have to give up. Is your knowledge in English that bad. How many times have i already told that DRDO has to continue developing new planes and fighters. same with ISRO. Did i say that the PSLV was american. I only said some satellite components were american. thats all. And you concluded that ISRO must be dropped. NICE.


you are wither to insane to understand anything or you simply don't want to understand. What is the fun if you keep changing the things you need to come to a point accept a product induct it and improve it. this is how the things work if you don't do this simple thing. Everything will be just waste. Is it so difficult to understand?



> Russian supplied cryogenic engines that are without TOT. Even the Chinese are using russian cryogenic engines. India has been using russian engines since the 90s and are continuing to do so even now. The indian cryogenic engines have only recently successfully been tested for dry runs. It ran for 720 seconds for the first time.


That is for GSLV Mark III



> LOL so your logic is that we must buy F-16s and go sit in the US or buy LCA and sit in india. Nice.


I can't interpret what r u saying



> We improved it with russian HELP. And how?? Russia came to us with plans and asked for funding. we were ready. Then the russians told us to develop the guidance and coding for the missile. The russians then went on to develop the seeker and the engine. The russians did all the difficult part. We did the easy ones. Since it was wholly funded in india. It became an indian product. Thats all. They came to us simply bcause they did not have the money. Thats how we got the Brahmos. Simple.


So you are saying our scientists just taken the salary? And enjoying the life. Wake up buddy don't mess around with nonsense.



> Scientists don't gain inspiration from the army. Where did you get that from. Scientists always like to test the limits of their knowledge. They are not bothered if the army does not buy their product unless they get the chance and the funding required to complete their research. There have been so many scientists in history who did their research for themselves. They were not bothered about anyone else. Do you think Oppenheimer, the man who invented the atomic bomb, created the atomic bomb with the single hope that the ARMY will USE it. He hated the idea of actually using the bomb. He did it only because he wanted to see how far he can go.


The money was given right keep the money running and don't use the product then what is the fun in wasting the money scrap the organization itself. Let those buggers do the work on there own only na. this is what u r trying to say here?



> The domestic industry is supported anyways. T-90s or ARJUNs. The workers in avadi are working on both.
> Like i already said. DRDO can finish the LCA and ARJUN. They can continue to make newer versions. Then once their version is good enough. They can sell to the IAF and IA.


When the hell it will be enough? Define that the technology keeps changing once one point is reached you will move to other point. It is a never ending cycle. Again try to cool off and understand a simple thing. Nothing is perfect nothing is THE BEST. Take some thing improve over it.



> The ARJUN cannot handle AC. The present engine is already underpowered.
> T-90s are facing teething problems. So, did the T-72s in the 80s. These problems can be rectified by the russians once production starts.


Arjun does not need AC to function. DRDO has already developed the cooling waste for the crew that will keep them comfortable. Why the teething problems can not be fixed with arjun? Answer this question.



> Simply because we dont have the required funds to finance another new tank.


But we have money to spend every where to buy a foreign product.




> no point replying to this. I have made myself clear on what DRDO should do very clearly many times.


No you have not done anything.




> It is not 600 t-72s. It is 1500 T-72s.
> IA has kept the option of keeping the indian version Tank-Ex open for purchase, whenever DRDO delivers it. IA plans to fill up the remaining with Tank-Ex rather than waste money on the ARJUN.


No it is 600. Tank Ex is not going to get used.



> The positive and negative points are not the same for all tanks. That is what defines the best tank.


This means a tank can be good for one condition but not for other right? 



> We need a future gen tank. Something that can plug the holes without investing blindly on the ARJUN, which will be termed obsolete only in 10 or 15 years.


What is the future tank? From two years the DGMF is not able to come to any conclusion and don't expect to come to any conclusion soon. Because whatever you will define today will not be relevant after 10 years then what you will do develop something else. Reject whatever done? Try to understand a basic thing. It is about getting a product using it and improving it.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> This is a very lame excuse *how you know that after 15 years it will be useless?* This is the worst excuse i have ever heard. MiG 21 it is still getting used. And going to work till 2020. F 16 came in 1970 right now only US air force is getting them retired but others will keep using them till 2030-2035 time line. It is about accepting a product.



Right now, we are at the pinnacle of tank technology that started in 1916. This will all change in some 10 or 15 years. There is already talk of designing unmanned tanks. Stealth incorporated unmanned armoured vehicles. They will be smaller, faster and have more firepower than modern present day tanks. The Mig-21 is not being retired because LCA is still not ready. The IAF went for MRCA and upgrades with Mig-21(bis) because LCA was not ready. US has fighters set to replace the F-16 and F-15 with the F-35 and F-22 resply(new generation fighters) . Thats the reason they are being replaced. The others who will continue using them is because they dont have any replacements like the USAF has.Period. You forgot money too. USAF has the funding necessary to spend. IAF or any other airforce doesnot enjoy as much monopoly as the USAF. Its not just about accepting a product. It is more about financing and doctrine.



> So according to you the DGMF (not army) which is not ready to upgrade itself from now on will some how magically upgrade after 15 years. t 90 uses 3 crew same as T 72 checked the picture of georgia. There is no chance of any body survival. Arjun has separate compartment so there is a chance of survival. T 55 have 4 men crew which are still in use. You can migrate those crews here. Again it is very easy to run around giving n number of excuses.



I used the number of crews statistics as a budget constraint, not operational logistics. Arjun means more money. T-90 uses less money.




> So what is the solution? Give some solution don't just give excuses. this is R&D boss. you need to give the chance to the product nothing is perfect.



Exactly what I was telling you. This is R&D. The IAF is asking for solutions. DRDO is giving excuses. DRDO still need another 10 or 15 years before they can come out with a state of the art engine. Kaveri is at best a mid-level engine. Something that can be designed and built in just 2 or 3 years in the US.




> Obviously it is needed until you accept a product make it in numbers you will never know what is going to come.



Not necessary. Mig-35 is a better product than the Mig-29. If nobody buys Mig-35, it doesnot mean the Mig-29 was the better aircraft. Mig can continue working on better variants. It is upto their customers to choose what to buy. Same with the IAF and IA with respect to DRDO. 



> *If DRDO can make a product obviously it has potential to make other things work.* Again you can run around with lame excuses.



That line in bold is poppycock. just because it was successful in something doesnot ensure automatic success in some other field. It is like saying, since india is good at cricket, india is automatically good at football and basketball.
How does success in ready to eat food ensure success in the tank industry or the aerospace sector. Different scientists are working on different products. It is not like DRDO has just 1 scientist working on all projects simultneously. There are different departments. Some departments have had more successes than other departments.



> you are wither to insane to understand anything or you simply don't want to understand. What is the fun if you keep changing the things you need to come to a point *accept a product induct it and improve it*. this is how the things work if you don't do this simple thing. Everything will be just waste. Is it so difficult to understand?



The line in bold, this will work only if the services have no other options. 

Look at this situation. The IAF has money enough for one plane. It has the option to choose from LCA, F-16 and Mig-35. ONLY 1 PLANE. Which will IAF choose??? I bet the IAF will choose between F-16 and the Mig-35. LCA wont even be given a chance. 

The IAF and IA have a lot of options to choose from. It is not like they have sanctions and that the only plane they can choose is the LCA.



> That is for GSLV Mark III


No. Russian cryogenic engines have been used in GSLV Mark I and II. Even the recent testing of the Mark III was carried out using Russian cryogenic engines. We have been using russian cryogenic engines since 1992.




> I can't interpret what r u saying


You started off with nonsense. I replied the same way. If you dint understand then you dont need to understand.




> So you are saying our scientists just taken the salary? And enjoying the life. Wake up buddy don't mess around with nonsense.



Yes, these people are humans first. They have families to feed and do everything else that other normal people do. Stop denying the fact that we need help from outside to do anything especially military. We need atleast another 30 years before we are completely self sufficient militarily. Until then there will be russian, US or israeli inputs. We lose so much money just requesting for help from other countries.




> The money was given right keep the money running and don't use the product then what is the fun in wasting the money scrap the organization itself. Let those buggers do the work on there own only na. this is what u r trying to say here?



You have only shown the intelligence of a mussel in all our discussions. I will say it again. DRDO CAN HANDLE *LOSS* LIKE ANY OTHER PSU. PSUs ACTUALLY HANDLE *LOSS* SO THAT NORMAL CIVILIANS CAN LEAD NORMAL LIVES. Or else imagine ONGC suddenly increases petrol prices by another Rs 30 unilaterally to go back into profit. It is only because they are owned by the govt that they cannot do that. Similarly, DRDO can continue researching on newer variants until they can actually build a satisfactory product that can compete with the other countries. Until then the money they spend on research is a calculable risk that GOI can handle. Now did you inderstand. Or do u still want to be a mussel.




> Nothing is perfect nothing is THE BEST.


Something is always at its BEST until it is surpassed. Even if it lasts only a moment.



> Take some thing improve over it.


IAF doesnot need to induct the LCA with the sole purpose of IMPROVING it. IAF can buy other improved planes like F-16s and Mig-35s and ask DRDO to work on the LCA to keep improving it. IAF can then buy the improved version LCA.





> Arjun does not need AC to function. DRDO has already developed the cooling waste for the crew that will keep them comfortable. *Why the teething problems can not be fixed with arjun?* Answer this question.



ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. IA CANNOT NECESSARILY MAINTAIN A HEAVY MAIN BATTLE TANK AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THAT OF A T-90. ONLY THE US CAN. 
IA IS NOT RICH ENOUGH.

anyways, teething problems are small problems that CAN BE FIXED. Teething problems come due to change in scenario. Like shifting from siberia to thar desert.



> But we have money to spend every where to buy a foreign product.



The money being spent on a T-90 is way lesser than what is spent on ARJUN. 

IA is inducting 124 ARJUNs only because IA's BUDGET can handle only 124 tanks. 





> No you have not done anything.



Simply because you dont know what i am saying.




> No it is 600. Tank Ex is not going to get used.


All T-72s will undergo partial upgrades except for the 600, which will undergo full upgrades. IA cannot afford more than that.




> This means a tank can be good for one condition but not for other right?



Some tanks will have more armour. Some will have more speed. Some will have more endurance. Some will have more technology. some will have better firepower. ETC ETC. Tanks work best on plains (eg:siberia) and deserts. Tanks are worst in forests, marshy areas and cities. 



> What is the future tank? From two years the DGMF is not able to come to any conclusion and don't expect to come to any conclusion soon.



Developing a new generation tank is still a concept. But all countries are working on it. Russia recently announced the development of unmanned tanks. They want a JV with India. DGMF have their own objectives. They will announce their plans at a later date. A future tank will make the present tanks pieces of junk.



> Because whatever you will define today will not be relevant after 10 years then what you will do develop something else. Reject whatever done?



YES. Then go back to the computer store and sit with a CELERON or even a 4086. Dont buy Core2Duos and Quadcores. Sit with obsolete technology.



> Try to understand a basic thing. It is about getting a product using it and improving it.



This statement holds true if you dont have a choice.
If you are NOT offered F-16, Mig-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen, F-18. Then you are stuck with LCA and you have to do your best with what you have. But, that is not the case right now.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Right now, we are at the pinnacle of tank technology that started in 1916. This will all change in some 10 or 15 years. There is already talk of designing unmanned tanks. Stealth incorporated unmanned armoured vehicles. They will be smaller, faster and have more firepower than modern present day tanks. The Mig-21 is not being retired because LCA is still not ready. The IAF went for MRCA and upgrades with Mig-21(bis) because LCA was not ready. US has fighters set to replace the F-16 and F-15 with the F-35 and F-22 resply(new generation fighters) . Thats the reason they are being replaced. The others who will continue using them is because they dont have any replacements like the USAF has.Period. You forgot money too. USAF has the funding necessary to spend. IAF or any other airforce doesnot enjoy as much monopoly as the USAF. Its not just about accepting a product. It is more about financing and doctrine.


You are missing the whole point about LCA read the post no 603 again. LCA was a technology demonstrator then after a long time the funds were given for creating a fighter. So money is not there so F 16 is getting used. F 35 is available for sales to everybody in NATO why not buying money is not there in developed countries? read the history about slippages in f 35 program.
So from 1916 the tanks are the same no changes have happened?
Financing and doctrine are made when you save money and use it wisely there is no infinite money available. You use a decent product which may not be with all top of the line gadgets and use it effectively
You have seen discovery and typing it here. Has the DGMF has given the requirement till now? From two years they are running a circus have you heard the results of the seminar for designing a future tank just held in new delhi? No result what will be the future. Nothing has came out and nothing concrete will come out. Because no body has seen the future.



> I used the number of crews statistics as a budget constraint, not operational logistics. Arjun means more money. T-90 uses less money.


Oh great give some statistics to say that T 90 is cheaper.



> Exactly what I was telling you. This is R&D. The IAF is asking for solutions. DRDO is giving excuses. DRDO still need another 10 or 15 years before they can come out with a state of the art engine. Kaveri is at best a mid-level engine. Something that can be designed and built in just 2 or 3 years in the US.


What is the solution IAF is asking. Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure. Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying? Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO? No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?



> Not necessary. Mig-35 is a better product than the Mig-29. If nobody buys Mig-35, it doesnot mean the Mig-29 was the better aircraft. Mig can continue working on better variants. It is upto their customers to choose what to buy. Same with the IAF and IA with respect to DRDO.


How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO. This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF. This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. it needs support. If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response. just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{&#192;&#208;&#204;&#209;-&#210;&#192;&#209;&#209;, this link is in russian}



> That line in bold is poppycock. just because it was successful in something doesnot ensure automatic success in some other field. It is like saying, since india is good at cricket, india is automatically good at football and basketball.


Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.



> How does success in ready to eat food ensure success in the tank industry or the aerospace sector. Different scientists are working on different products. It is not like DRDO has just 1 scientist working on all projects simultneously. There are different departments. Some departments have had more successes than other departments.


Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand? 



> The line in bold, this will work only if the services have no other options.


So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?



> Look at this situation. The IAF has money enough for one plane. It has the option to choose from LCA, F-16 and Mig-35. ONLY 1 PLANE. Which will IAF choose??? I bet the IAF will choose between F-16 and the Mig-35. LCA wont even be given a chance.


Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.



> The IAF and IA have a lot of options to choose from. It is not like they have sanctions and that the only plane they can choose is the LCA.


So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?



> No. Russian cryogenic engines have been used in GSLV Mark I and II. Even the recent testing of the Mark III was carried out using Russian cryogenic engines. We have been using russian cryogenic engines since 1992.


Boss check the chanhrayaan.



> Yes, these people are humans first. They have families to feed and do everything else that other normal people do. Stop denying the fact that we need help from outside to do anything especially military. We need atleast another 30 years before we are completely self sufficient militarily. Until then there will be russian, US or israeli inputs. We lose so much money just requesting for help from other countries.


How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer? 



> You have only shown the intelligence of a mussel in all our discussions. I will say it again. DRDO CAN HANDLE *LOSS* LIKE ANY OTHER PSU. PSUs ACTUALLY HANDLE *LOSS* SO THAT NORMAL CIVILIANS CAN LEAD NORMAL LIVES. Or else imagine ONGC suddenly increases petrol prices by another Rs 30 unilaterally to go back into profit. It is only because they are owned by the govt that they cannot do that. Similarly, DRDO can continue researching on newer variants until they can actually build a satisfactory product that can compete with the other countries. Until then the money they spend on research is a calculable risk that GOI can handle. Now did you inderstand. Or do u still want to be a mussel.


So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand? 



> IAF doesnot need to induct the LCA with the sole purpose of IMPROVING it. IAF can buy other improved planes like F-16s and Mig-35s and ask DRDO to work on the LCA to keep improving it. IAF can then buy the improved version LCA.


What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment




> ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. IA CANNOT NECESSARILY MAINTAIN A HEAVY MAIN BATTLE TANK AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THAT OF A T-90. ONLY THE US CAN.
> IA IS NOT RICH ENOUGH.


No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.



> anyways, teething problems are small problems that CAN BE FIXED. Teething problems come due to change in scenario. Like shifting from siberia to thar desert.


Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this. 



> The money being spent on a T-90 is way lesser than what is spent on ARJUN.


How prove it.



> IA is inducting 124 ARJUNs only because IA's BUDGET can handle only 124 tanks.


Prove it



> Simply because you dont know what i am saying.


enlighten me with your wast knowledge sir



> All T-72s will undergo partial upgrades except for the 600, which will undergo full upgrades. IA cannot afford more than that.


Again check the picture of georgia conflict what happened to those t 72 which were having ERA also. there are plenty available on net.



> Some tanks will have more armour. Some will have more speed. Some will have more endurance. Some will have more technology. some will have better firepower. ETC ETC. Tanks work best on plains (eg:siberia) and deserts. Tanks are worst in forests, marshy areas and cities.


What is the point here then?



> Developing a new generation tank is still a concept. But all countries are working on it. Russia recently announced the development of unmanned tanks. They want a JV with India. DGMF have their own objectives. They will announce their plans at a later date. A future tank will make the present tanks pieces of junk.


Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know



> YES. Then go back to the computer store and sit with a CELERON or even a 4086. Dont buy Core2Duos and Quadcores. Sit with obsolete technology.


I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. Because celeron is fulfilling my need. This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.



> This statement holds true if you dont have a choice.
> If you are NOT offered F-16, Mig-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen, F-18. Then you are stuck with LCA and you have to do your best with what you have. But, that is not the case right now.


So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?

Again repeating my self

India is not a developed country it is a developing country. It is short of funds in almost every arena. To become developed nation we need to spend our money wisely. It means that India has to develop her industry in every sphere. Some where there will be little lapses but that does not mean to completely abandon the areas completely. India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it. IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version. And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed. Again it may not be THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will service the forces in a decent way.

Is it so difficult to understand?


----------



## Contrarian

Um...in this heated debate, i would like to point out, that regardless of whether Arjun gets bought by the IA or not, the development of Arjun has given massive spinoffs. These will definitely be used in other areas.

For example, the development of LCA resulted in sufficient development of Indian technology, that we could attempt the upgrade of the Jaguar ourselves. There are spinoffs in every investment we take in defence products. The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT. This is one path where you HAVE to go alone.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> You are missing the whole point about LCA read the post no 603 again. LCA was a technology demonstrator then after a long time the funds were given for creating a fighter. So money is not there so F 16 is getting used. F 35 is available for sales to everybody in NATO why not buying money is not there in developed countries? read the history about slippages in f 35 program.
> So from 1916 the tanks are the same no changes have happened?
> Financing and doctrine are made when you save money and use it wisely there is no infinite money available. You use a decent product which may not be with all top of the line gadgets and use it effectively
> You have seen discovery and typing it here. Has the DGMF has given the requirement till now? From two years they are running a circus have you heard the results of the seminar for designing a future tank just held in new delhi? No result what will be the future. Nothing has came out and nothing concrete will come out. Because no body has seen the future.
> 
> 
> Oh great give some statistics to say that T 90 is cheaper.
> 
> 
> What is the solution IAF is asking. Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure. Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying? Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO? No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?
> 
> 
> How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO. This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF. This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. it needs support. If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response. just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ, this link is in russian}
> 
> 
> Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.
> 
> 
> Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand?
> 
> 
> So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?
> 
> 
> Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.
> 
> 
> So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?
> 
> 
> Boss check the chanhrayaan.
> 
> 
> How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer?
> 
> 
> So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand?
> 
> 
> What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment
> 
> 
> 
> No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.
> 
> 
> Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this.
> 
> 
> How prove it.
> 
> 
> Prove it
> 
> 
> enlighten me with your wast knowledge sir
> 
> 
> Again check the picture of georgia conflict what happened to those t 72 which were having ERA also. there are plenty available on net.
> 
> 
> What is the point here then?
> 
> 
> Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know
> 
> 
> I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. Because celeron is fulfilling my need. This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.
> 
> 
> So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?
> 
> Again repeating my self
> 
> India is not a developed country it is a developing country. It is short of funds in almost every arena. To become developed nation we need to spend our money wisely. It means that India has to develop her industry in every sphere. Some where there will be little lapses but that does not mean to completely abandon the areas completely. India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it. IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version. And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed. Again it may not be THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will service the forces in a decent way.
> 
> Is it so difficult to understand?






Your knowledge in ENGLISH is thoroughly lacking. Eg: When i said we are at the pinnacle of tank technology which BEGAN in 1916. I meant we have reached the *highest point * in tank design....the present generation. But, u thought I meant all tanks are the same as tanks in 1916. 

There is no point replying to all your posts mainly cause of this barrier between us. You dont understand what i am trying to say.


My points are simple:
1) ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. Go Google. It will take a 10 year old to realize that buying and maintaining a 60 ton vehicle is MORE than buying and maintaining a 46 ton vehicle.

Therefore, IA cannot buy the tank with its current budget. You dont need statistics to prove it.

The max we can do is sell all our current tanks and still only field about 1500 ARJUNs instead of 3500 smaller tanks.

2)LCA is still in the design stage. Exactly my point when YOU said LCA is a technology demonstrator. THE IAF DOESNOT BUY TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATORS. INFACT NO AIRFORCE DOES.

DRDO still need atleast 10 years of work on the LCA to come out with a fighter equal to the present gen F-16 BLK52, it can probably be a second version of the LCA that will be inducted. Until then DRDO has to CONTINUE working.

Once DRDO reaches that level with the LCA then and only then IAF can buy. Until then IAF can buy F-16, MIG-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen etc.

Since LCA is only a TD, how do u expect IAF to actually induct it.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> What is the solution IAF is asking.



nobody knows. Secrecy.



> *Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure.* Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying?



Go read. 10 to 15 years is a realistic figure. Do u know where the F-22 stands compared to the F-15. F-22 is way ahead. 




> Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO?



You are mixed up. the US work on many engines at the same time. We can work only on 1 at the same time. We have enough funding for the kaveri program.



> No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?



Unfortunately, that is what the IAF wants. Thats why they keep changing the requirements.



> How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. *Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO.* This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF.



It isnt being accepted by RuAF mainly cause of budget. Plus they have a hell lot of Mig-29s in their inventory. They are investing on sukhois for now. The Mig-35 was built particularly for india. But, there is little chance of india actually accepting the Mig 35. So, there is no question of Mig not being funded anyways.



> This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. *it needs support.*



Exactly my point. DRDO can CONTINUE what they are doing without being affected by IAFs decisions. They can handle LOSS.




> If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response.



Not if you are the ONLY customer.



> just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ, this link is in russian}



Artillery is a touchy subject in india. It is more political than military. mainly because of the BOFORS scam. It is not like the technology is not available.




> Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.



Thats why comparing army and airforce R&D or ARJUN and LCA R&D is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because DRDO was successful in one venture doesnot mean DRDO is successful in ALL ventures. I am giving examples to make you understand.




> Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand?



You are WRONG. The product does not need acceptance. It only needs FUNDING. Which is available anyways.




> So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?



That is the state of R&D in India. You would have to be an idiot to compare an EF-2000 or Su-30MKI to LCA.




> Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.



Again, you dont get examples. English is a difficult language. I know.




> So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?



That would sound just right. IAF will have no other choice except LCA.




> Boss check the chanhrayaan.



PSLV doesnot use cryogenic engines. GSLV MK III uses the engine and it will have its first test flight in 2009.



> How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer?



I did not say other countries will provide the technology. I said we will develop technologies that will make us self sufficient in 30 years. 30 years is a realistic figure. We dont even make good small arms yet.




> So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand?



When did i say money spent on R&D is a waste. I said inducting ARJUN is a waste since it is not needed. Dont mix up ARJUN and R&D. They are both different.




> What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment



Foreign planes are more expensive simply because they are more capable than the LCA.



> No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.



WRONG. Inducting ARJUN needs more money and is more time consuming. IA cant possibly handle the costs of maintaining 500+ Heavy MBTs.




> Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this.



HELL!!!! When did I SAY ARJUNS dont run in deserts. Which planet are you from?? Can U QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS PLZ. ARJUN clearly have a good ground pressure ratio. They can move in sand properly and are also proved to have better heat tolerance than the T-90. ARJUN was rejected because of different reasons.





> Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know



Exactly my point when I told the army policy makers have to get their act together and work on a new generation concept. Read my earlier posts. Glad u came to terms with atleast this one.




> I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. *Because celeron is fulfilling my need.* This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.



Nice, u proved my point. CELERONS are fulfilling your need. T-90s are fulfilling IA's needs. They dont NEED ARJUNS. Meaning they dont need Quadcores, they are happy with CELERONS.




> So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?



Nice way to put it. But, u get my point.



> Again repeating my self


How many times have i done the same.



> India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. *Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it.* IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST.



Unfortunately in the military, it does not work that way. The indian armed forces cannot induct something that has never been tested. Plus, budget is of concern here.



> But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version.



Exactly why IA is inducting only 124 ARJUNs. They are testing the product. You dont need 500+ tanks to do what you just suggested. IA needs a new generation tank nevertheless. IA wants parity with china and not pakistan after 15-20 years. 

So, DRDO can continue to develop ARJUN MK2 and probably MK3. They can use this expertise to design a new generation tank. Which WILL be inducted by the army. Probably the MK3 version itself will be the new generation tank.



> *And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed.* But it will service the forces in a decent way.
> 
> Is it so difficult to understand?



Exactly, that will take time. Like i suggested. Self-sufficiency will take atleast 30 years. 

DRDO can work on military products without being concerned about selling it. DRDO is a property of GOI. The Indian GDP can handle FAILED products. DRDO can be a major LOSS making company and still make us self sufficient in 30 years. Simply because it is a PSU. A company that can handle LOSS.

To make it more clear. When i say LOSS, i am referring to PROFIT and LOSS. I am not suggesting DRDO actually LOST something.

And when i say self sufficient. I mean all military products are *indigenous*, ie, without imported parts.


----------



## p2prada

malaymishra123 said:


> Um...in this heated debate, i would like to point out, that regardless of whether Arjun gets bought by the IA or not, the development of Arjun has given massive spinoffs. These will definitely be used in other areas.
> 
> For example, the development of LCA resulted in sufficient development of Indian technology, that we could attempt the upgrade of the Jaguar ourselves. There are spinoffs in every investment we take in defence products. The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT. This is one path where you HAVE to go alone.



True, thats what i have been trying to tell. DRDO can continue to develop the ARJUN. Not buying ARJUN doesnot mean the END of DRDO. 



> The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT.



True. But the domestic technology, LCA, is still not at the same level as that of F-16 etc. So, DRDO needs to continue working to bridge the gap, EVEN IF IAF DOESNOT BUY LCA.


----------



## Contrarian

p2prada said:


> True, thats what i have been trying to tell. DRDO can continue to develop the ARJUN. Not buying ARJUN doesnot mean the END of DRDO.
> 
> 
> 
> True. But the domestic technology, LCA, is still not at the same level as that of F-16 etc. So, DRDO needs to continue working to bridge the gap, EVEN IF IAF DOESNOT BUY LCA.




That is not possible mate. Without the user involvement, the product cannot be improved. This is because ANY Army or Airforce always wants the best equipment available, to them it doesnt matter whether its domestic or not.

Case in point is the Israeli Merkava Mk1. It was a shitty product at that time, but it was forced on the Israeli Army, and thus the user once gets committed to the product, helps no end to improve it with the designer. With successive iterations the Merkava Mk4 has developed into a formidable tank, with no small help from their Army. Without them, Israeli Industries would not have been able to make it.

Without the IAF accepting LCA, it would mean a dead project, and everything learned would be wasted. Technology needs to be constantly updated, if it stands still, the next time we attempt to develop a fighter(manned or unmanned), we would have to go through the SAME development curve, as we would not have the relevant technologies of that time. It is unfortunate, but true. IAF would have to buy the LCA in numbers, such that it cant be neglected by the IAF, and also such that it doesnt compromise on their ability to wage war. The first product has to be accepted always.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> nobody knows. Secrecy.


But you some how know that DRDO is making excuses how?



> Go read. 10 to 15 years is a realistic figure. Do u know where the F-22 stands compared to the F-15. F-22 is way ahead.


Dont mess the things tell me how this 10-15 years figure came from? no need for f 15 or F 22 BS



> You are mixed up. the US work on many engines at the same time. We can work only on 1 at the same time. We have enough funding for the kaveri program.


So what is the way out of it?



> Unfortunately, that is what the IAF wants. Thats why they keep changing the requirements.


And that is why they never get anything on time.



> It isnt being accepted by RuAF mainly cause of budget. Plus they have a hell lot of Mig-29s in their inventory. They are investing on sukhois for now. The Mig-35 was built particularly for india. But, there is little chance of india actually accepting the Mig 35. So, there is no question of Mig not being funded anyways.


Why they are going ahead with sukhois?



> Exactly my point. DRDO can CONTINUE what they are doing without being affected by IAFs decisions. They can handle LOSS.


Not product comes with 100% defect proof from the first day. After testing also lot of improvements got done. that is why the concept of MLU exist. If you don't get the product in to the service you industry will never learn any of those.



> Not if you are the ONLY customer.


So you will nevery buy anything then why the money is getting wasted scrap the whole damn thing and keep buying from outside.



> Artillery is a touchy subject in india. It is more political than military. mainly because of the BOFORS scam. It is not like the technology is not available.


But you are not getting it and not working on building domestic also what is the end result.



> Thats why comparing army and airforce R&D or ARJUN and LCA R&D is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because DRDO was successful in one venture doesnot mean DRDO is successful in ALL ventures. I am giving examples to make you understand.


What are you trying to prove? Arjun is a failed product?



> You are WRONG. The product does not need acceptance. It only needs FUNDING. Which is available anyways.


What? only needs funding? And then you say that this product is not useful then why you need funding? A vicious circle.



> That is the state of R&D in India. You would have to be an idiot to compare an EF-2000 or Su-30MKI to LCA.


You are comparing different class of fighters so obviously you will not get any clear picture.



> Again, you dont get examples. English is a difficult language. I know.


Obviously I can't comprehend you are just talking in air like just ONE PLANE each plane is different each has a different requirement each fulfills a different role each requires a different training. You can't just jump around by saying ONE PLANE.



> That would sound just right. IAF will have no other choice except LCA.


Oh till that time it is a useless piece then.



> PSLV doesnot use cryogenic engines. GSLV MK III uses the engine and it will have its first test flight in 2009.


There is no such thing as complete self sufficiency in space - quite a few of the components are procured from abroad and assembled here to allow a particular mission profile be it remote sensing ,communication or chandrayan 

Having said that PSLV has the maximum indegenious component till date almost all basic systems are made in India -GSLV MK3 wil be even better 

Regarding cryogenics as used in GSLV program only (PSLV ) does not use a cryo stage everything is being done from scratch or rather fundamentals here in India -the rocket engines ,the vacuum jacketed multilayer insulated piping system fro liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping ,the liquid oxygento liquid nitrogen sub cooling heat exchanger ,the liquid nitrogen vaporizer for payload bay purging before launch ,the associated control system and development of operating logic ,the turbo pumps ,the combustion chamber etc etc -in short GSLV mk3 will be the most indegeniuos of all rockets till date and also most powerful.



> I did not say other countries will provide the technology. I said we will develop technologies that will make us self sufficient in 30 years. 30 years is a realistic figure. We dont even make good small arms yet.


How you will come to know the effectiveness of the products wnill using them in live services?



> When did i say money spent on R&D is a waste. I said inducting ARJUN is a waste since it is not needed. Dont mix up ARJUN and R&D. They are both different.


R&D is done to develop a product? A product is based on a set of requirements. Once a product is made it amy/may not fulfill all the requirements but just based on this you can't dump the product especially if it is your first product.



> Foreign planes are more expensive simply because they are more capable than the LCA.


Also you pay for there R&D in the money you pay them.



> WRONG. Inducting ARJUN needs more money and is more time consuming. IA cant possibly handle the costs of maintaining 500+ Heavy MBTs.
> [


How prove it.




> HELL!!!! When did I SAY ARJUNS dont run in deserts. Which planet are you from?? Can U QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS PLZ. ARJUN clearly have a good ground pressure ratio. They can move in sand properly and are also proved to have better heat tolerance than the T-90. ARJUN was rejected because of different reasons.


What are the reasons?



> Exactly my point when I told the army policy makers have to get their act together and work on a new generation concept. Read my earlier posts. Glad u came to terms with atleast this one.


Exactly my point is the DGMF is messing around without having any idea about what they want and wasting the money.



> Nice, u proved my point. CELERONS are fulfilling your need. T-90s are fulfilling IA's needs. They dont NEED ARJUNS. Meaning they dont need Quadcores, they are happy with CELERONS.


No your line was this that CELRON are outdated. Now you are taking complete turn here check you statement again



> Nice way to put it. But, u get my point.


You are simply saying till the point I will get a phren maal i will only buy that till the time all domestic maal is a crap.



> How many times have i done the same.


You have not done anything except making baseless arguments



> Unfortunately in the military, it does not work that way. The indian armed forces cannot induct something that has never been tested. Plus, budget is of concern here.


So all the products are tested and 100% this is what you are saying? then how the electronics stooped working and AC is needed? Now AC is not eating in to the budget? 



> Exactly why IA is inducting only 124 ARJUNs. They are testing the product. You dont need 500+ tanks to do what you just suggested. IA needs a new generation tank nevertheless. IA wants parity with china and not pakistan after 15-20 years.


Now this china angle... where the hell china and India are going to see tank wars? in himalayas? And what is that new generation of tank any ways? They will keep deciding and keep changing the requirement and that will again end in a disaster



> So, DRDO can continue to develop ARJUN MK2 and probably MK3. They can use this expertise to design a new generation tank. Which WILL be inducted by the army. Probably the MK3 version itself will be the new generation tank.


When you don't want MK1 then what is the guarantee you will like the MK2 or Mk3



> Exactly, that will take time. Like i suggested. Self-sufficiency will take atleast 30 years.


How this magical figure of 30 years reached?



> DRDO can work on military products without being concerned about selling it. DRDO is a property of GOI. The Indian GDP can handle FAILED products. DRDO can be a major LOSS making company and still make us self sufficient in 30 years. Simply because it is a PSU. A company that can handle LOSS.


So you are saying just waste the taxpayer money for something that is not going to see the light? What sort of logic is this?



> To make it more clear. When i say LOSS, i am referring to PROFIT and LOSS. I am not suggesting DRDO actually LOST something.


DRDO is losing the valuable experience gained in developing a product which is not going to get inducted in sufficient numbers.



> And when i say self sufficient. I mean all military products are *indigenous*, ie, without imported parts.


You need to start some where. Try to understand the word START. Is it so difficult to understand?


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Your knowledge in ENGLISH is thoroughly lacking.


Oh and you are the only ONE here



> Eg: When i said we are at the pinnacle of tank technology which BEGAN in 1916. I meant we have reached the *highest point * in tank design....the present generation. But, u thought I meant all tanks are the same as tanks in 1916.


How you know this is the highest point here?



> There is no point replying to all your posts mainly cause of this barrier between us. You dont understand what i am trying to say.


And you are not getting what I am trying to say. You are just running with the best of the best of the best funda.



> My points are simple:
> 1) ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. Go Google. It will take a 10 year old to realize that buying and maintaining a 60 ton vehicle is MORE than buying and maintaining a 46 ton vehicle.


The point is a 58.5 ton vehicle gives you more crew protection the tank crews for army is like pilots to IAF these are rigorously trained and very precious resource in case of a hit on 46 ton vehicle which does not have a separate compartment for keeping explosive will make usre that no one survives whereas the 58.5 ton vehicle will ensure that they survive now which cost is higher?



> Therefore, IA cannot buy the tank with its current budget. You dont need statistics to prove it.


And without proper testing then found that those does not perform teh role that they are supposed to do. For the same reason the domestic product was rejected.



> The max we can do is sell all our current tanks and still only field about 1500 ARJUNs instead of 3500 smaller tanks.


What? How you came to know this never heard of it any where.



> 2)LCA is still in the design stage. Exactly my point when YOU said LCA is a technology demonstrator. THE IAF DOESNOT BUY TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATORS. INFACT NO AIRFORCE DOES.


Now this is ridiculous read that post again oh you had not read that till now read the excerpt


> But in 1990-91, the government felt that so much of a risk could not be taken and the requirement of seven prototypes was split into two phases: two technology demonstrators (TD) followed by five prototypes. In the TD stage we were told that no sensor or weaponisation was required; only certain technologies were to be demonstrated. In April 1993, an amount of Rs 2,188 crore was allocated only for the TD, implying that before this, funds were not available to launch the full scale programme. The technologies needed to be demonstrated were composite-based wing structure, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, all digital avionics and computer-based control of electro-mechanical systems.
> 
> In January 2001, the TD1 was flown and the government saw the promise in the programme. In November 2001, the government gave the go-ahead to start work on the proto-vehicles (PV), which are basically meant for sensors and weapons integration. Till this time, the government did not fund us to make a fighting machine or PVs for which funds to the tune of Rs 3301 crore were released then. The sanction fund of Rs 3,301 crore is not only for the proto-vehicles but for the limited serial production (LSP) of eight aircraft, including the infrastructure needed for them to establish a production line of eight aircraft per annum. This was the turning point for the programme. In June 2002, we flew the TD2 and in November 2003, we flew PV1.
> 
> There was a transformation at this stage as we realised that an entire generation of electronics had changed by 2001. Fortunately, by 1998-99, we decided to make the entire avionics of the aircraft with an open system of architecture. Hence, the PV2 that flew in December 2005 was with an open system of architecture. The advantage is that it allows us to tackle obsolescence of electronic hardware. In this process, we were able to make nearly 80 per cent of avionics indigenously. Today, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is very happy with us on this issue because we have the most current concept of avionics in the aircraft. In December 2006 we flew PV3, and in April 2007 the LSP1 version. The LSP2 was flown recently in June 2008. Today, we have seven aircraft in flying condition: TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1 and LSP2. Our first trainer aircraft is round the corner, probably in another two months. We are now very close to programme completion. We are looking for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2010 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2012. In March 2006, the IAF placed the order for 20 aircraft in IOC configuration.





> DRDO still need atleast 10 years of work on the LCA to come out with a fighter equal to the present gen F-16 BLK52, it can probably be a second version of the LCA that will be inducted. Until then DRDO has to CONTINUE working.


How this 10 year and Blk 52 come from? On what basis you will compare? Enlighten me pls.



> Once DRDO reaches that level with the LCA then and only then IAF can buy. Until then IAF can buy F-16, MIG-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen etc.


You just said so many planes? Are they similar? On what basis they are similar? Do they perform the role of LCA? 



> Since LCA is only a TD, how do u expect IAF to actually induct it.


already posted the excerpt read it and then reply.


----------



## p2prada

malaymishra123 said:


> That is not possible mate. Without the user involvement, the product cannot be improved. This is because ANY Army or Airforce always wants the best equipment available, to them it doesnt matter whether its domestic or not.
> 
> Case in point is the Israeli Merkava Mk1. It was a shitty product at that time, but it was forced on the Israeli Army, and thus the user once gets committed to the product, helps no end to improve it with the designer. With successive iterations the Merkava Mk4 has developed into a formidable tank, with no small help from their Army. Without them, Israeli Industries would not have been able to make it.



Firstly plz dont compare the economies of israel and india. We are at a different level.
Compare india to US or russia or even china. the user demand etc are the same. But, not the same as israel. The political and military scenario is different also.

Do you know howmany "experimental" programs exist in the US and russia.
EG: in fighters look at sukhoi. They have the berkut. Just because nobody is buying the berkut doesnot mean they will stop improving it or stop development altogether. The same with the Mig 1.44.

* User involvement is necessary only if funds are not available.* 

But, in US, Russia, China, development of products *continue* even without the military actually buying the product. Meaning User involvement is at best *consultation* wrt experimental products. 

The same way LCA started of as a TD. Look at our own Trishul, it is only a TD. But, we will have plans for it once we get our act right. Maybe more experience in seeker technology will help us bring out the Trishul at a much later date along with rohini/maitri etc. Meaning none of the products in research in india are dead. All WILL see the light of day. It will take time though. But, they dont require User involvement for funding.



> Without the IAF accepting LCA, it would mean a dead project, and everything learned would be wasted. Technology needs to be constantly updated, if it stands still, the next time we attempt to develop a fighter(manned or unmanned), we would have to go through the SAME development curve, as we would not have the relevant technologies of that time. It is unfortunate, but true. IAF would have to buy the LCA in numbers, such that it cant be neglected by the IAF, and also such that it doesnt compromise on their ability to wage war. The first product has to be accepted always.



Again you are only looking at user involvement with respect to funding. If IAF takes the LCA, they will put more resources into it. But what it really means is that IAF will ASK DRDO to improve it. DRDO will be forced to come out with newer models and technologies. But, you fail to see that LCA will have a MK2 and a MK3 version even if IAF does not participate wholeheartedly. 

DRDO has promised to come out with improved versions with upgrades like TVC and AESA. No doubt it will happen. Let IAF buy a MK2 or MK3 version of the LCA. Why on earth should IAF buy a TD with no proper technologies assimilated. Our radar and engine are not ready yet. It will take years to just induct the engine completely.

Self sufficiency and indigenous is a GOVT of INDIA AGENDA and not some company(DRDO) policy. Defence ministry will force investment into R&D and force the services to buy from indigenous products. But, right now, leave the IAF alone. Atleast untlil the next blocks of LCA are out.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Is their even any need for further discussion on ARJUNK? its just waist of time and bandwidth. The Indian army desperately want T-90s NO ARJUNs.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> But you some how know that DRDO is making excuses how?



GTRE failed at the kaveri. Thats why further development is carried out by Snecma. This clearly says FAILURE. 

DRDO cannot catch up with foreign developers. They blame failures on the services mainly based on change in requirements. The reporters hype up the story and potray DRDO as the hero and the services as the villians. Typical blame game. The services have been waiting over 20 years for the LCA and ARJUN to materialize ever since they were sanctioned in the 90s. Change in requirements HAVE TO TAKE PLACE over such prolonged periods.




> Dont mess the things tell me how this 10-15 years figure came from? no need for f 15 or F 22 BS



You are the news digger in the forum. Dig it out. Russians are planning to stop development on the T-72, T-80 and T-90. They are currently working on the T-95. T-95 is said to be a "new generation tank." It is supposed to have a 152mm gun capable of firing anti-tank missiles at ranges of over 7000metres. Induction will take place after 2010. The russians also want unmanned tanks developed by 2020. 2020 is only 12 years away. Therefore the figure of 10-15 years. Any more doubts???




> So what is the way out of it?



There is no way out. We can afford only 1 engine development at a time. The US can do 10 at the same time. ECONOMY CLASS.



> And that is why they never get anything on time.



Wrong, DRDO never delivers on time. Look out for R&D lifecycles in india and the rest of the world. The money we spent on R&D is adjusted with inflation every time. The rest of the world finishes tank development in 5 or 6 years. Only we take more than 10 years. IA only furbishes new requirements due to change in time and technology. 




> Why they are going ahead with sukhois?


They have migs, now they are going for sukhois. Like Su-33,Su-34, Su-35 etc. 
Su-27 airframe is a new design. MIG have to come out with a newer design too. They dont have the money to fund new projects.



> Not product comes with 100% defect proof from the first day. After testing also lot of improvements got done. that is why the concept of MLU exist. If you don't get the product in to the service you industry will never learn any of those.



Again not necessary. Regular testing of TDs will ensure what is required for MLUs. We use computers now. Simulation man Simulation. You are talking about 30 years ago.




> So you will nevery buy anything then why the money is getting wasted scrap the whole damn thing and keep buying from outside.



GoI is following the policy of self reliance. It is not related to buying TDs for PRIDE. So, scrapping is out of the picture.




> But you are not getting it and not working on building domestic also what is the end result.


Hogwash. Pinaka is domestic. Who says we are not working domestically.




> What are you trying to prove? Arjun is a failed product?



Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.




> What? only needs funding? And then you say that this product is not useful then why you need funding? A vicious circle.



Funding is needed to make the product better. DRDO is not in it for profit. DRDO and GOI are trying to prove to the world that india can build good products without outside assistance. It is our cue for being accepted as a global power. 



> You are comparing different class of fighters so obviously you will not get any clear picture.


Then compare F-16 to the LCA. LCA is not at the same level.




> Obviously I can't comprehend you are just talking in air like just ONE PLANE each plane is different each has a different requirement each fulfills a different role each requires a different training. You can't just jump around by saying ONE PLANE.



You are talking logistics. I am talking about the product. If you are given an option between Mercedes and BMW which will you choose? Now choose based on car performance, handling etc. this is what i meant. What you meant is the way it is going to be used or the role.

What you are talking about is. BMW is good for racing and Mercedes is good for luxury and are completely ignoring the engine performance, handling etc.




> Oh till that time it is a useless piece then.


It is useless to the IAF. But useful to DRDO.



> There is no such thing as complete self sufficiency in space - quite a few of the components are procured from abroad and assembled here to allow a particular mission profile be it remote sensing ,communication or chandrayan



Yes, it also includes ALL the WIRING. Did you know that ALL WIRING in satellites are imported.



> Having said that PSLV has the maximum indegenious component till date almost all basic systems are made in India -GSLV MK3 wil be even better
> 
> Regarding cryogenics as used in GSLV program only (PSLV ) does not use a cryo stage everything is being done from scratch or rather fundamentals here in India -the rocket engines ,the vacuum jacketed multilayer insulated piping system fro liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping ,the liquid oxygento liquid nitrogen sub cooling heat exchanger ,the liquid nitrogen vaporizer for payload bay purging before launch ,the associated control system and development of operating logic ,the turbo pumps ,the combustion chamber etc etc -in short GSLV mk3 will be the most indegeniuos of all rockets till date and also most powerful.



We were only talking about cryogenic engines. Not about GSLV and PSLV. we have been using russian engines. The recent test with indian engines failed. A new test will be held in 2009, with indian engines.




> How you will come to know the effectiveness of the products wnill using them in live services?



Dude, we have not even built our own SNIPER rifle. Our small arms industry is BACKWARD. 



> R&D is done to develop a product? A product is based on a set of requirements. Once a product is made it amy/may not fulfill all the requirements but just based on this you can't dump the product especially if it is your first product.



Funding will take care of it. New Blocks have to be developed.



> Also you pay for there R&D in the money you pay them.



It is going to take years for us to develop the same products thats used in F-16s etc. do u think we can develop an AESA on our own, when we cant even develop a satisfactory MMR.



> How prove it.



China developed the Type 99 MBT. But, they cant induct more than 200-300. Even China cant handle such modern MBTs. Do you know that the Type-99 is lighter than the ARJUN by 5 tons? 

But they have inducted 1500 Type 96, which are in the same league or inferior to the T-90s that we have. 

Anyways, ARJUN costs $3.2 million while T-90 costs $1.6million. You do the math. maintaining ARJUN is even more expensive.



> What are the reasons?


MONEY MONEY MONEY. Either funding or kickbacks or politics. Who knows?




> Exactly my point is the DGMF is messing around without having any idea about what they want and wasting the money.



They have an idea about what they want.

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
[
B]"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation. [/B]

This proves my 10-15 years theory.




> No your line was this that CELRON are outdated. Now you are taking complete turn here check you statement again


True. But I just used your quote to prove my point. Thats all. IA doesnot need heavy MBTs.




> You are simply saying till the point I will get a phren maal i will only buy that till the time all domestic maal is a crap.



Until the domestic maal reaches a certain level of maturity. 




> You have not done anything except making baseless arguments


All you have done is misquote my points.




> So all the products are tested and 100% this is what you are saying? then how the electronics stooped working and AC is needed? *Now AC is not eating in to the budget*?



AC is not expensive. Even the cooling suits need maintainance.




> Now this china angle... where the hell china and India are going to see tank wars? in himalayas? And what is that new generation of tank any ways? They will keep deciding and keep changing the requirement and that will again end in a disaster



The competition will be technological and economical and not military.




> When you don't want MK1 then what is the guarantee you will like the MK2 or Mk3



DRDO has to prove it.




> How this magical figure of 30 years reached?


Research and figure it out. Or is it that you have your own figures???




> So you are saying just waste the taxpayer money for something that is not going to see the light? What sort of logic is this?



It proves technological capability. More than just a good reason. We can be partners in any future russian or israeli tank development instead of just the clearing bills for research.




> DRDO is losing the valuable experience gained in developing a product which is not going to get inducted in sufficient numbers.



Selling will not matter when you are out to prove technological capability. The experience will help us in JVs.




> You need to start some where. Try to understand the word START. Is it so difficult to understand?



Start researching. Build beter products. Markets will open up. If not in india then outside india.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Oh and you are the only ONE here


Whatever!!




> How you know this is the highest point here?



I have reasons enough to believe that all future tank developments will push it to a new generation of tank warfare. Manned tanks are a dead concept.




> And you are not getting what I am trying to say. You are just running with the best of the best of the best funda.



As usual, another misquote.




> The point is a 58.5 ton vehicle gives you more crew protection the tank crews for army is like pilots to IAF these are rigorously trained and very precious resource in case of a hit on 46 ton vehicle which does not have a separate compartment for keeping explosive will make usre that no one survives whereas the 58.5 ton vehicle will ensure that they survive now which cost is higher?



The probability for india to go to war is less than 1&#37;. Do u expect IA to include tanks in its inventory that can push its maintainance bill by 2 or 3 times. ARJUN is still expensive.




> And without proper testing then found that those does not perform teh role that they are supposed to do. For the same reason the domestic product was rejected.



Money.




> What? How you came to know this never heard of it any where.



India is not rich boy. Or are you hearing this for the first time too. ARJUN is already twice as expensive. Do the math.



> Now this is ridiculous read that post again oh you had not read that till now read the excerpt



What you quoted proves that LCA is still a TD. FOC in 2012. Talk about induction after FOC is given. 20 fighters in IOC is for testing similar to the 14 ARJUNS given to IA.





> How this 10 year and Blk 52 come from? On what basis you will compare? Enlighten me pls.



Oh! So you believe, DRDO will develop AESA and TVC in far lesser time. 10 years is simply too flawed then. Make it 15 years. maybe 20 years. 

You are naive to believe technologies like supercruise, TVC and AESA can be developed overnight. We dont even have a MMR or a working engine to power the LCA, let alone TVC, supercruise and AESA.




> You just said so many planes? Are they similar? On what basis they are similar? Do they perform the role of LCA?



They OUTPERFORM the LCA in any given environment or scenario. LCA is far from ready. LCA, JF-17, J-10 are all "poor mans" planes. They dont compare to the fighters i mentioned.




> already posted the excerpt read it and then reply.


I will say it again. The 20 planes inducted are not for operations against the enemy. FYI, the LCA will be based in Kerala. That is something like 2000km from the border. LCA wont even reach the border. The LCAs were inducted for flight testing by IAF. Thats all. It is not called full fledged induction.

You cant fight a war with 20 LCAs and 14 ARJUNs.


----------



## Contrarian

I see your point. But the there is another way to solve the problem. The Users in our case, dont want any indegenous equipment, barring the Navy, the 2 services are quite willing to accept foreign equipments without the rigour of testing as they do for Indian products. 

The User just doesnt want to get involved with the lab, this has been a case time and again. They give an idea of what they want, and halfway through they change it. There is no long term vision of the equipment they require or need or even want. Forcing the equipment on the user ensures that they do act as consultants and seriously help in rectifying the problems by way of first hand user experience-something they dont do right now.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> GTRE failed at the kaveri. Thats why further development is carried out by Snecma. This clearly says FAILURE.
> 
> DRDO cannot catch up with foreign developers. They blame failures on the services mainly based on change in requirements. The reporters hype up the story and potray DRDO as the hero and the services as the villians. Typical blame game. The services have been waiting over 20 years for the LCA and ARJUN to materialize ever since they were sanctioned in the 90s. Change in requirements HAVE TO TAKE PLACE over such prolonged periods.


Again you are cribbing without any knowledge of what is happening check the post no. 643 in LCA thread. 




> You are the news digger in the forum. Dig it out. Russians are planning to stop development on the T-72, T-80 and T-90. They are currently working on the T-95. T-95 is said to be a "new generation tank." It is supposed to have a 152mm gun capable of firing anti-tank missiles at ranges of over 7000metres. Induction will take place after 2010. The russians also want unmanned tanks developed by 2020. 2020 is only 12 years away. Therefore the figure of 10-15 years. Any more doubts???


Arjun fires LAHAT which has a range of 8km. This is seriously a news to me of T 95 getting inducted in 2010 I googled couldn't find out. As per as my news goes this is development time estimated for a new tank not induction time.



> There is no way out. We can afford only 1 engine development at a time. The US can do 10 at the same time. ECONOMY CLASS.


Yeah so this is the reason to keep cribbing uselessly



> Wrong, DRDO never delivers on time. Look out for R&D lifecycles in india and the rest of the world. The money we spent on R&D is adjusted with inflation every time. The rest of the world finishes tank development in 5 or 6 years. Only we take more than 10 years. IA only furbishes new requirements due to change in time and technology.


Too generalized statement not making sense to answer.



> They have migs, now they are going for sukhois. Like Su-33,Su-34, Su-35 etc.
> Su-27 airframe is a new design. MIG have to come out with a newer design too. They dont have the money to fund new projects.


Oh so they failed to design something impressive right?



> Again not necessary. Regular testing of TDs will ensure what is required for MLUs. We use computers now. Simulation man Simulation. You are talking about 30 years ago.


What simulations are you talking about? 



> GoI is following the policy of self reliance. It is not related to buying TDs for PRIDE. So, scrapping is out of the picture.


Who told to buy TD's read I have posted the excerpt above for you



> Hogwash. Pinaka is domestic. Who says we are not working domestically.


There is a huge difference between artillery guns and MLRS systems. Don't be too desperate to prove how insane you are



> Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.
> 
> 
> 
> My argument is not to buy T 90. It is about accepting a domestic product.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funding is needed to make the product better. DRDO is not in it for profit. DRDO and GOI are trying to prove to the world that india can build good products without outside assistance. It is our cue for being accepted as a global power.
> 
> 
> 
> Any company which is not in profit is a drain to the public money. When the work they are doing is not yeilding any result then why they are needed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then compare F-16 to the LCA. LCA is not at the same level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On what points?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking logistics. I am talking about the product. If you are given an option between Mercedes and BMW which will you choose? Now choose based on car performance, handling etc. this is what i meant. What you meant is the way it is going to be used or the role.
> 
> What you are talking about is. BMW is good for racing and Mercedes is good for luxury and are completely ignoring the engine performance, handling etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is getting in to all sort of tangents. Plane can't be compared to cars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is useless to the IAF. But useful to DRDO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the product is useless for the end user then what is the meaning for it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it also includes ALL the WIRING. Did you know that ALL WIRING in satellites are imported.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what is the point you are trying to make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We were only talking about cryogenic engines. Not about GSLV and PSLV. we have been using russian engines. The recent test with indian engines failed. A new test will be held in 2009, with indian engines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is why PSLV is used to carry the satellites. The program was not stopped because of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, we have not even built our own SNIPER rifle. Our small arms industry is BACKWARD.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what is supposed to be done? Where ever they are not able to develop a product import a product byt whenever they come up with a product it may not be as good as the comparative product in the market. But accept a product and try to improve over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funding will take care of it. New Blocks have to be developed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not getting a simple point here. You are saying that our industry has to come up with a fully world class product knowing fully well that they are not as developed as other country's industry are. You have to STSRT accepting the product then only a real experience can be gained you can't keep the product forever in the lab. Is it so difficult to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is going to take years for us to develop the same products thats used in F-16s etc. do u think we can develop an AESA on our own, when we cant even develop a satisfactory MMR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is already rectified no need to crib about that. It is coming out with some 2052 modules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China developed the Type 99 MBT. But, they cant induct more than 200-300. Even China cant handle such modern MBTs. Do you know that the Type-99 is lighter than the ARJUN by 5 tons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lighter by 5 tons? So what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But they have inducted 1500 Type 96, which are in the same league or inferior to the T-90s that we have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly so what is the problem with 200-300 arjun?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, ARJUN costs $3.2 million while T-90 costs $1.6million. You do the math. maintaining ARJUN is even more expensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It brings a lot of good features too like there is no need for an AC. have you included that cost here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MONEY MONEY MONEY. Either funding or kickbacks or politics. Who knows?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who is suffering out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have an idea about what they want.
> 
> India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
> [
> B]"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation. [/B]
> 
> This proves my 10-15 years theory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it does not proves anything it just shows how confused the thinking is what is the guarantee that it will work? You are just wasting the present for a wishful thinking of future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True. But I just used your quote to prove my point. Thats all. IA doesnot need heavy MBTs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you accept that you are twisting the words? It has not proved any point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until the domestic maal reaches a certain level of maturity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again you are missing a word called START. you have to START somewhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All you have done is misquote my points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not making baseless arguments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AC is not expensive. Even the cooling suits need maintainance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you know that? Isn't AC requires power? From where this power will come? Does it not need to be protected from enemy fire? Does it not add to weight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The competition will be technological and economical and not military.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what is the point here? There is not going to be a tank war right? So that argument was baseless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO has to prove it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On what basis? To some other thing developed by some one at that time? Oh come on again you are missing a simple thing called START. you have to START some where.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Research and figure it out. Or is it that you have your own figures???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not a future predictor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It proves technological capability. More than just a good reason. We can be partners in any future russian or israeli tank development instead of just the clearing bills for research.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What technological capability? When it is not getting accepted by the user?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selling will not matter when you are out to prove technological capability. The experience will help us in JVs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are building a product for what then? Not selling it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Start researching. Build beter products. Markets will open up. If not in india then outside india.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the way to say it is a better product when it is accepted by the home user. When the home user is not using it then why others will buy?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Again you are cribbing without any knowledge of what is happening check the post no. 643 in LCA thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun fires LAHAT which has a range of 8km. This is seriously a news to me of T 95 getting inducted in 2010 I googled couldn't find out. As per as my news goes this is development time estimated for a new tank not induction time.
> 
> 
> Yeah so this is the reason to keep cribbing uselessly
> 
> 
> Too generalized statement not making sense to answer.
> 
> 
> Oh so they failed to design something impressive right?
> 
> 
> What simulations are you talking about?
> 
> 
> Who told to buy TD's read I have posted the excerpt above for you
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference between artillery guns and MLRS systems. Don't be too desperate to prove how insane you are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.
> 
> 
> 
> My argument is not to buy T 90. It is about accepting a domestic product.
> 
> 
> Any company which is not in profit is a drain to the public money. When the work they are doing is not yeilding any result then why they are needed?
> 
> 
> On what points?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting in to all sort of tangents. Plane can't be compared to cars.
> 
> 
> 
> If the product is useless for the end user then what is the meaning for it?
> 
> 
> So what is the point you are trying to make?
> 
> 
> That is why PSLV is used to carry the satellites. The program was not stopped because of this.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is supposed to be done? Where ever they are not able to develop a product import a product byt whenever they come up with a product it may not be as good as the comparative product in the market. But accept a product and try to improve over it.
> 
> 
> You are not getting a simple point here. You are saying that our industry has to come up with a fully world class product knowing fully well that they are not as developed as other country's industry are. You have to STSRT accepting the product then only a real experience can be gained you can't keep the product forever in the lab. Is it so difficult to understand?
> 
> 
> It is already rectified no need to crib about that. It is coming out with some 2052 modules.
> 
> 
> Lighter by 5 tons? So what?
> 
> 
> Exactly so what is the problem with 200-300 arjun?
> 
> 
> It brings a lot of good features too like there is no need for an AC. have you included that cost here?
> 
> 
> Who is suffering out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> No it does not proves anything it just shows how confused the thinking is what is the guarantee that it will work? You are just wasting the present for a wishful thinking of future.
> 
> 
> So you accept that you are twisting the words? It has not proved any point.
> 
> 
> Again you are missing a word called START. you have to START somewhere
> 
> 
> You are not making baseless arguments
> 
> 
> How do you know that? Isn't AC requires power? From where this power will come? Does it not need to be protected from enemy fire? Does it not add to weight?
> 
> 
> So what is the point here? There is not going to be a tank war right? So that argument was baseless.
> 
> 
> On what basis? To some other thing developed by some one at that time? Oh come on again you are missing a simple thing called START. you have to START some where.
> 
> 
> I am not a future predictor
> 
> 
> What technological capability? When it is not getting accepted by the user?
> 
> 
> 
> You are building a product for what then? Not selling it?
> 
> 
> What is the way to say it is a better product when it is accepted by the home user. When the home user is not using it then why others will buy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZZZ. Sleeping. cant answer anymore. U dont understand what i m saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> I have reasons enough to believe that all future tank developments will push it to a new generation of tank warfare. Manned tanks are a dead concept.


He he he this unmanned thing. So man is not going to have any role then? You see lot of sci fi movies man




> As usual, another misquote.


No it is correct quote. You are comparing the industry which is trying to build the first product with other industries which are building the products from a long time. You need to support your industry by STARTING to accept there products. Try to understand a simple word START. Is it so diffuclt to understand?



> The probability for india to go to war is less than 1&#37;. Do u expect IA to include tanks in its inventory that can push its maintainance bill by 2 or 3 times. ARJUN is still expensive.


How this figure of 2-3 time came in to picture? If the chances of war are so less then why so much equipment's are bought from foreign origin there is product home made cut the import to some level and work on domestic product.




> Money.


What money that money has gone to total drain to support some other industry. Why can't that one (at least some portion) was used to support the home industry.




> India is not rich boy. Or are you hearing this for the first time too. ARJUN is already twice as expensive. Do the math.


Are you joking? prove your point, you said that India have to sell all the tank inventory to support 1500 arjun? I never heard of it. What is this then? One of your dreams?



> What you quoted proves that LCA is still a TD. FOC in 2012. Talk about induction after FOC is given. 20 fighters in IOC is for testing similar to the 14 ARJUNS given to IA.


Oh so this proves that you don't read anything. Come on it is not TD it is in LSP stage read it carefully. Don't run around with nonsense.



> Oh! So you believe, DRDO will develop AESA and TVC in far lesser time. 10 years is simply too flawed then. Make it 15 years. maybe 20 years.


No body has a working AESA except USA. So all others have stopped using there products. F 16 does not have TVC and neither does LCA is going to have it is not a necessary feature for single engined plane. Google the work done on T/R modules of AESA by DRDO. Super cruise has to be included from design stage in a plane. No other plane except F 22 have proven super cruise capability.



> You are naive to believe technologies like supercruise, TVC and AESA can be developed overnight. We dont even have a MMR or a working engine to power the LCA, let alone TVC, supercruise and AESA.


Super cruise is not used by 4th generation plane. AESA is not operational anywhere except USA. TVC is used in twin engined planes. Oh so DRDO has not worked on TVC?



> They OUTPERFORM the LCA in any given environment or scenario. LCA is far from ready. LCA, JF-17, J-10 are all "poor mans" planes. They dont compare to the fighters i mentioned.


They are not poor man's plane it is start of making a plane it need not to outperform the existing ones for day 1. Some where there has to be a START.



> I will say it again. The 20 planes inducted are not for operations against the enemy. FYI, the LCA will be based in Kerala. That is something like 2000km from the border. LCA wont even reach the border. The LCAs were inducted for flight testing by IAF. Thats all. It is not called full fledged induction.


But a start is happening, and that is what is needed and you keep improving the product.
And by the way these will be defending the nuclear plants coming in that vicinity from the chinese coming from myanmar side.



> You cant fight a war with 20 LCAs and 14 ARJUNs.


Exactly induct them in numbers and then you can fight a war with them.

PS: check the PM.


----------



## nitesh

23march said:


> Is their even any need for further discussion on ARJUNK? its just waist of time and bandwidth. The Indian army desperately want T-90s NO ARJUNs.



Hey we just put some life in the thread  Isn't it a big achievement.


----------



## p2prada

malaymishra123 said:


> I see your point. But the there is another way to solve the problem. The Users in our case, dont want any indegenous equipment, barring the Navy, the 2 services are quite willing to accept foreign equipments without the rigour of testing as they do for Indian products.
> 
> The User just doesnt want to get involved with the lab, this has been a case time and again. They give an idea of what they want, and halfway through they change it. There is no long term vision of the equipment they require or need or even want. Forcing the equipment on the user ensures that they do act as consultants and seriously help in rectifying the problems by way of first hand user experience-something they dont do right now.



True. So u mean to say we need to introduce laws similar to china so that the services choose Indian products. I am OK with the Army going that way. ARJUN's a very good tank, albeit expensive. But, IAF requirements CANNOT be fulfilled by Indian R&D, atleast for another 10-15 years. But, we are still going forward with the MCA.

Plus, Can IA afford the sudden change in logistics due to ARJUNs induction?

DRDO cannot offer products of the same caliber as lockheed martin or Sukhoi can offer.

The fact is IA cannot afford the ARJUN and IAF are not entirely satisfied with the LCA. IAF was the one who pointed out that LCA was underpowered.

So, can u blame the 2 services from not inducting an expensive tank and a TD aircraft.



As for continous changes in requirements, the problem is that all technologies being developed to satisfy the requirements is being done for the first time by an R&D department that has no previous experience in aircraft development. So, they will obviously take more time than necessary compared to any american or russian R&D department. Time overruns are obviously a problem, and cannot be helped. But, at the same time IAF is being offered some of the best technologies available in the market, which DRDO cannot yet match. So, do u really want to blame IAF for choosing the F-16 over the LCA. Do u really want IAF to loose its tech superiority over its enemies by choosing the LCA over F-16 just to satisfy DRDO. Far from it. 

LCA *will* mature as time progresses. LCA *will* receive funding as long as DRDO survives. LCA *will* see newer Blocks. LCA *will* become as advanced or much superior to the F-16. But, until that day, IAF can wait. As for DRDO, a little LOSS will not hurt it. Ultimately IAF and IA *will* be the principle customers of DRDO. 

So, why rush the inevitable?


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> nitesh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ZZZ. Sleeping. cant answer anymore. U dont understand what i m saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok then stop cribbing
Click to expand...


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Firstly plz dont compare the economies of israel and india. We are at a different level.
> Compare india to US or russia or even china. the user demand etc are the same. But, not the same as israel. The political and military scenario is different also.
> 
> Do you know howmany "experimental" programs exist in the US and russia.
> EG: in fighters look at sukhoi. They have the berkut. Just because nobody is buying the berkut doesnot mean they will stop improving it or stop development altogether. The same with the Mig 1.44.
> 
> User involvement is necessary only if funds are not available.
> 
> But, in US, Russia, China, development of products continue even without the military actually buying the product. Meaning User involvement is at best consultation wrt experimental products.



P2prada you are missing the micro level issues in view of a grand vision, good that you have a grand vision but the devil lies in the detail. Both in US and Russia defence is considered something of national importance among the general populace, compare this with India, how many laymen here can name a tank or an aircraft. Our psyche is such that despite the enormous wealth we will always limit our spending in defence thus little space for failures. It is in this scenario that Malay compares India with Israel. There is a limited budget in which CVRDE or DRDO operate unlike US which can sink exorbant amounts of cash into esotoric projects that get cancelled at the last minute. Already attrition is becoming somewhat of a major problem across defence labs add to this the reducing number of students from prmier institutes seeking DRDO as an option. It is in this scenario, I am suggesting we should support indegenous products where there have been considerable advances and investments.

IPF


----------



## p2prada

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> P2prada you are missing the micro level issues in view of a grand vision, good that you have a grand vision but the devil lies in the detail. Both in US and Russia defence is considered something of national importance among the general populace, compare this with India, how many laymen here can name a tank or an aircraft.



You are comparing social issues with military ones. The only people actively concentrating on defense related issues in US, russia and india are the military personnel. Anyways the civilians in these countries have only a very flimsy knowledge of weapons systems. Just knowing the name of a tank or jet makes no difference to military planners and politicians. Prestige is no doubt a booster for military activities. But it also equally backfires. So many protests are held in the US by peace activists who demand total disarmament. Just because the education in our country is lacking doesn't mean military technology is affected to a level as you think it has.

Most importantly, the general population's lack of knowledge also helps in propaganda as seen in india, pak and china; where the population blindly believes that their LCA, JF-17 and J-10 are the best aircraft in the world without a second thought. They bring pride and prestige in front of logic and reason.



> Our psyche is such that despite the enormous wealth we will always limit our spending in defence thus little space for failures.



Exactly my point. We can only invest in 1 engine or 1 tank or 1 plane at a time. But, we also see to it that we WILL finish development because of the large amounts of money spent. That's why USER support is not required as Nitesh has been pointing out. DRDO is anyways building MK2 and MK3 versions of LCA. They will also start developing the MK2 version even without 
the support of the services. Development of these technologies are a matter of national importance which supports GOI plans of being self sufficient in military technology.

It is not our PSYCHE that is preventing us to do more. It is CAPABILITY. We are only capable of developing 1 plane or 1 tank or 1 engine at a time. Not more like in US or Russia.



> It is in this scenario that Malay compares India with Israel.



Yes, but you fail to see the geopolitical picture in which india and israel are in. You are comparing the 1960s policy(Israel) against 2008 policy(India). Can you even compare the economies of Israel and India?

Look at the scenario. Israel in the 60s was at war supported by a military(US) that was easily the most expensive to maintain. But, Israel couldnot afford the same lavishness that the US could afford on its military. And israel didnot have access to cheap soviet tanks in the 60s-70s. So, they HAD to build the Merakava. Plus the fact that the M1 Abrams was not as battle worthy as they said it would be when it first came out.

As for india, every capable defense company on the planet wants to sell their most sophisticated hardware to india, which is one of the largest economies(12th largest) on the planet and also has defense needs that might equal or even surpass the US in the future. India wants to be a world power. Israel only want to protect themselves. India and Israel are similar only with respect to terrorism. Thats it.




> Already attrition is becoming somewhat of a major problem across defence labs add to this the reducing number of students from prmier institutes seeking DRDO as an option. It is in this scenario, I am suggesting we should support indegenous products where there have been considerable advances and investments.
> 
> IPF



Attrition is serious. But it is the pay packets that are forcing scientists to leave for greener pastures and not because ARJUN was not selected or something. DRDO cannot help it. It is upto GOI to pay them by increasing DRDOs budget. 

DRDO is a non profit organization(not charity. DUH!!). It is supported financially by GOI through the yearly financial budget. 

Have you seen RELIANCE or TATA being financially supported by GOI? NO!!

DRDO scientists will get better pay only if GOI wants to. The profits from ARJUN etc will only help fund other projects. DRDO is not a private company.


----------



## Nishan_101

SALAM,
i would like 2 ask a Ques that why don't tey stop Arjun project and even sell it 2 some oter manufature's so tat they could gain money that could be invested in some other TANKS like T-90's, T-95's and Challenger-II's(try fit wit some of their own system if competitive and reliable HAHAHAHA )and also concentrate on their license product , make it quality product so that the previous problems that occur with T-90's as well as T-72's upgrade won't come.Think before answerin especially Indians ok don't say it is not failed accept it and don't say no problem and no Hazitation and foreign readers u should try 2 carve my post 2 explain wat am i tryin 2 say i think those who r experience may tell it rightly ok


----------



## Nihat

Nishan_101 said:


> SALAM,
> i would like 2 ask a Ques that why don't tey stop Arjun project and even sell it 2 some oter manufature's so tat they could gain money that could be invested in some other TANKS like T-90's, T-95's and Challenger-II's(try fit wit some of their own system if competitive and reliable HAHAHAHA )and also concentrate on their license product , make it quality product so that the previous problems that occur with T-90's as well as T-72's upgrade won't come.Think before answerin especially Indians ok don't say it is not failed accept it and don't say no problem and no Hazitation and foreign readers u should try 2 carve my post 2 explain wat am i tryin 2 say i think those who r experience may tell it rightly ok



please translate and find a cure for smsitis


----------



## Black Stone

Isn't the T-90 more superior than the Arjun?. If that is the case then India should forget the Arjun and the associated problems and get more T-90s.


----------



## nitesh

Every machine has some plus and some minus points. The main problem with the DGMF is they have become so touchy with arjun or anything related to arjun that it is creating a bad atmosphere.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Every machine has some plus and some minus points. The main problem with the DGMF is they have become so touchy with arjun or anything related to arjun that it is creating a bad atmosphere.



Come on Nitesh, you know that's not true.

Arjun is costly, and also overkill (in the sub-continent); hence, the T-90.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Come on Nitesh, you know that's not true.
> 
> Arjun is costly, and also overkill (in the sub-continent); hence, the T-90.



This is the lamest excuse to not buy any machinery.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> This is the lamest excuse to not buy any machinery.



Care to elaborate?


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Care to elaborate?



read the post no. 366 in this thread.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> read the post no. 366 in this thread.



And what does that post say? The fact that the cost-benefit analysis favors the T-90, even though the Arjun is better? I'll agree the Army does have a role in this mess, but is accusing the DGMF so blatantly essential?


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> And what does that post say? The fact that the cost-benefit analysis favors the T-90, even though the Arjun is better? I'll agree the Army does have a role in this mess, but is accusing the DGMF so blatantly essential?



You are not understanding a basic thing. When you purchase a foreign product the whole money goes out. you get nothing out of it. So how it is good. If you invest in domestic product it builds a domestic industry which creates jobs in own country and gives much better returns. Consider this factor is cost benefit analysis.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> You are not understanding a basic thing. When you purchase a foreign product the whole money goes out. you get nothing out of it. So how it is good. If you invest in domestic product it builds a domestic industry which creates jobs in own country and gives much better returns. Consider this factor is cost benefit analysis.



The people who did the CBA did include these things in their calculations.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> The people who did the CBA did include these things in their calculations.



CBA? But anyway, what is the point here you are trying to say.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> CBA? But anyway, what is the point here you are trying to say.



CBA stands for Cost Benefit Analysis... I'm saying that the DGMF ain't dumb, as you are implying.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> CBA stands for Cost Benefit Analysis... I'm saying that the DGMF ain't dumb, as you are implying.



Oh sorry hadn't got it. So the point that is putting across is that don't purchase the indigenous product because some money can flow back to India but throw the money completely out of india? Is that is the point?


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Oh sorry hadn't got it. So the point that is putting across is that don't purchase the indigenous product because some money can flow back to India but throw the money completely out of india? Is that is the point?



It's not as simple as that, and you know it. All I'm saying the guys who made the decision are very fine gentlemen who know what they are doing.

If they have decided on the T-90 (even though Arjun is better and indigenous albeit much more costly) then they must have had very valid reasons for the same.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> It's not as simple as that, and you know it. All I'm saying the guys who made the decision are very fine gentlemen who know what they are doing.
> 
> If they have decided on the T-90 (even though Arjun is better and indigenous albeit much more costly) then they must have had very valid reasons for the same.



Vish, please read the posts no. 335, 336 and 337.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Vish, please read the posts no. 335, 336 and 337.



Post 335: A former member of OF

Post 336: Prasun Sengupta

Post 337: Ajai Shukla


Each of these ignore the fact that Arjun costs a bomb to induct, and a nuke to operate and maintain.


----------



## p2prada

Nishan_101 said:


> SALAM,
> i would like 2 ask a Ques that why don't tey *stop Arjun project* and even sell it 2 some oter manufature's so tat they could gain money that could be invested in some other TANKS like T-90's, T-95's and Challenger-II's(try fit wit some of their own system if competitive and reliable HAHAHAHA )and also concentrate on their license product , make it quality product so that the previous problems that occur with T-90's as well as T-72's upgrade won't come.Think before answerin especially Indians ok don't say it is not failed accept it and don't say no problem and no Hazitation and foreign readers u should try 2 carve my post 2 explain wat am i tryin 2 say i think those who r experience may tell it rightly ok



Then we would lose out on our path to indeginization.


----------



## p2prada

Black Stone said:


> Isn't the T-90 more superior than the Arjun?. If that is the case then India should forget the Arjun and the associated problems and get more T-90s.



Sorry pal. Arjun is better.

T-90s couldn't *scratch* ARJUN at point blank range using HEAT shells.
ARJUN does better in the desert too. 

It is like the difference between Tiger tank and Sherman during WW2.

T-90s is simply cheaper.


----------



## p2prada

vish said:


> Post 335: A former member of OF
> 
> Post 336: Prasun Sengupta
> 
> Post 337: Ajai Shukla
> 
> 
> *Each of these ignore the fact that Arjun costs a bomb to induct, and a nuke to operate and maintain.*



Exactly my point. Thank you.

I can only afford a Maruti not a BMW.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Post 335: A former member of OF
> 
> Post 336: Prasun Sengupta
> 
> Post 337: Ajai Shukla
> 
> 
> Each of these ignore the fact that Arjun costs a bomb to induct, and a nuke to operate and maintain.



Now this one, so why the hell this sort of GSQR was put in place?
So again you are trying to say that let the total money go out?


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> This is the lamest excuse to not buy any machinery.



Nitesh you still dont understand the difference between maintaining a heavy tank and a medium tank. The differences are simply staggering. 

Why do you think a nation like China which has a military GDP close to 5 times that of India still manage to induct only around 300 Type-99s.

Look at Russia. They were not rich enough like the US to induct heavy MBTs like the M1 Abrams. So they stuck to T-72, T-80 and now the T-90 which are all medium tanks.

India is in the same boat as russia and china. We cannot afford military hardware like the US can.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Nitesh you still dont understand the difference between maintaining a heavy tank and a medium tank. The differences are simply staggering.
> 
> Why do you think a nation like China which has a military GDP close to 5 times that of India still manage to induct only around 300 Type-99s.
> 
> Look at Russia. They were not rich enough like the US to induct heavy MBTs like the M1 Abrams. So they stuck to T-72, T-80 and now the T-90 which are all medium tanks.
> 
> India is in the same boat as russia and china. We cannot afford military hardware like the US can.



Then why the GSQR was put for such a machinery in first place, oh hold one one more twist now:

Printarticle-DNA E-Paper - Daily News & Analysis -Mumbai,India

Army gives Israeli twist to Arjun tale

Wants machinery to be improved as suggested by Israel Military Industries

Josy Joseph. New Delhi

The army has added a few new twists, including an Israeli factor, to the ongoing Arjun tank saga, by agreeing to hold comparative trials between the indigenous tank and T-90 and T-72 tanks bought from Russia.
According to authoritative sources, army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor has written to defence minister AK Antony agreeing to hold the comparative trials, but it has put down several conditions for accepting the 124 Arjun tanks ordered earlier. This is the latest twist in the story of the indigenous Arjun tank, which has been under trial for 14 years now.
For the first 62 tanks, the army chief suggested several corrections based on the findings of the army team, which carried out exhaustive field trials of the tank. But what has added a new twist is the army demand that the second batch of 62 tanks be improved according to the standards laid down by the Israel Military Industries (IMI).
DRDO had called in IMI last year to assist it in design improvement and production engineering. But the IMI suggestions have become a fresh albatross around the research agencys neck, as it struggles to get the army to accept the Arjun.
The appointment of IMI as a consultant was surprising for many, but now the army has seized on the DRDO move. The army demand could further delay induction of the entire 124 tanks. All the 124 hulls are ready. We dont know how we can now carry out major changes, says a source involved in the Arjun project.
Ministry sources say they are looking at getting at least 14 of them ready by February so that they can take part in summer trials alongside the T-90s and T-72s. The army had for a long time resisted carrying out any comparative trials, but the army chief has now agreed to such trials.
Sources said the army chief has said the first 62 would be accepted with improved firing accuracy, better transmission system and some other minor changes. The transmission system, supplied by a German firm, would need some hardware improvement besides the software improvement carried out recently.
j_josy@dnaindia.net


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Now this one, so why the hell this sort of GSQR was put in place?



Didn't Ajai Shukla himself concede that the GSQRs were formulated by DRDO scientists themselves?



nitesh said:


> So again you are trying to say that let the total money go out?



Yes, because we do not have a choice. What we can do is minimize the outflow of money via ToT and import substitution (as and when plausible).


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Then why the GSQR was put for such a machinery in first place, oh hold one one more twist now:
> 
> Printarticle-DNA E-Paper - Daily News & Analysis -Mumbai,India
> 
> Army gives Israeli twist to Arjun tale
> 
> Wants machinery to be improved as suggested by Israel Military Industries
> 
> Josy Joseph. New Delhi
> 
> The army has added a few new twists, including an Israeli factor, to the ongoing Arjun tank saga, by agreeing to hold comparative trials between the indigenous tank and T-90 and T-72 tanks bought from Russia.
> According to authoritative sources, army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor has written to defence minister AK Antony agreeing to hold the comparative trials, but it has put down several conditions for accepting the 124 Arjun tanks ordered earlier. This is the latest twist in the story of the indigenous Arjun tank, which has been under trial for 14 years now.
> For the first 62 tanks, the army chief suggested several corrections based on the findings of the army team, which carried out exhaustive field trials of the tank. But what has added a new twist is the army demand that the second batch of 62 tanks be improved according to the standards laid down by the Israel Military Industries (IMI).
> DRDO had called in IMI last year to assist it in design improvement and production engineering. But the IMI suggestions have become a fresh albatross around the research agencys neck, as it struggles to get the army to accept the Arjun.
> The appointment of IMI as a consultant was surprising for many, but now the army has seized on the DRDO move. The army demand could further delay induction of the entire 124 tanks. All the 124 hulls are ready. We dont know how we can now carry out major changes, says a source involved in the Arjun project.
> Ministry sources say they are looking at getting at least 14 of them ready by February so that they can take part in summer trials alongside the T-90s and T-72s. The army had for a long time resisted carrying out any comparative trials, but the army chief has now agreed to such trials.
> Sources said the army chief has said the first 62 would be accepted with improved firing accuracy, better transmission system and some other minor changes. The transmission system, supplied by a German firm, would need some hardware improvement besides the software improvement carried out recently.
> j_josy@dnaindia.net




Read between the lines here...

The IA does not want Arjun because it cannot afford it without skewing up its priorities. Isn't it obvious? Costs matter...


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Read between the lines here...
> 
> The IA does not want Arjun because it cannot afford it without skewing up its priorities. Isn't it obvious? Costs matter...



Again missing the point why not invest in something homegrown rather then wasting money on a foreign product. (This does not mean completely cut off import this is about accepting a home grown product).


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Didn't Ajai Shukla himself concede that the GSQRs were formulated by DRDO scientists themselves?


You are wrong GSQR are done by army.



> Yes, because we do not have a choice. What we can do is minimize the outflow of money via ToT and import substitution (as and when plausible).


Import substitution good point how you will achieve it/


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Again missing the point why not invest in something homegrown rather then wasting money on a foreign product. (This does not mean completely cut off import this is about accepting a home grown product).



How does going in for T-90 imply dropping indigenous products entirely? Is Arjun all that there is to indigenous products?

Hasn't the IA inducted INSAS rifles, Pinaka MLRS, Namica, Nag, Dhruv and many other products or components that are not that visible?


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> You are wrong GSQR are done by army.



Incorrect. Ajai himself stated on BR that the GSQRs were made by some brainweeds who simply went brochure-shopping in the global MBT market.



nitesh said:


> Import substitution good point how you will achieve it/



R&D.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> How does going in for T-90 imply dropping indigenous products entirely? Is Arjun all that there is to indigenous products?
> 
> Hasn't the IA inducted INSAS rifles, Pinaka MLRS, Namica, Nag, Dhruv and many other products or components that are not that visible?



So what is the problem in inducting this product?


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Incorrect. Ajai himself stated on BR that the GSQRs were made by some brainweeds who simply went brochure-shopping in the global MBT market.


What is this now? some poster said something in some forum is this your basis of argument? I had given you the link of Mr. Ajai Shukla's blog



> R&D.


Why you do R&D? You do it for making a product right. Why you make a product? To induct it and use it, right. Otherwise simply keep buying from outside.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> So what is the problem in inducting this product?



For the zillionth time... the IA is a T-72 type tank force (logistics, doctrine, training, combined operations, finances, etc). Converting it into an Arjun-type tank force is ridiculously expensive.

Hence, Arjun cannot be the backbone of our armored forces even though it is simply a class apart.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> What is this now? some poster said something in some forum is this your basis of argument? I had given you the link of Mr. Ajai Shukla's blog



Ajai himself said this in BR. I'm trying to find his posts, but having a hard time. Give me some time.



nitesh said:


> Why you do R&D? You do it for making a product right. Why you make a product? To induct it and use it, right. Otherwise simply keep buying from outside.



I'm talking about individual components of tanks. Lessons learnt from Arjun can be used to update our T-90 fleet. Further, R&D efforts can be put herein.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> For the zillionth time... the IA is a T-72 type tank force (logistics, doctrine, training, combined operations, finances, etc). Converting it into an Arjun-type tank force is ridiculously expensive.
> 
> Hence, Arjun cannot be the backbone of our armored forces even though it is simply a class apart.



So you want to keep yourself content with an inferior product although it can put your men's life in danger?


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Ajai himself said this in BR. I'm trying to find his posts, but having a hard time. Give me some time.


Ok find it, but again something said in some forum can't be a part of discussion. But any way try to find it. It will be a news that GSQR is formed by DRDO.



> I'm talking about individual components of tanks. Lessons learnt from Arjun can be used to update our T-90 fleet. Further, R&D efforts can be put herein.


Why not do it in arjun? Why put the money in T 90 which will not give any return and further put money to improve it?


----------



## p2prada

vish said:


> *For the zillionth time... the IA is a T-72 type tank force (logistics, doctrine, training, combined operations, finances, etc). Converting it into an Arjun-type tank force is ridiculously expensive.
> 
> Hence, Arjun cannot be the backbone of our armored forces even though it is simply a class apart.*



Exactly what I have been shouting myself hoarse for!!!!!!!!
Arjun costs twice more than the T-90. Maintainance costs are much more than just twice what is spent on T-90.

It is like the difference between F-15 and F-22. Capable but Expensive.


----------



## p2prada

vish said:


> I'm talking about individual components of tanks. Lessons learnt from Arjun can be used to update our T-90 fleet. Further, R&D efforts can be put herein.




Exactly, DRDO wont die if ARJUN is not inducted. The experience can also be used in future tank developments too. Maybe DRDO can come out with a super tank by 2020 which army can induct.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Why not do it in arjun? *Why put the money in T 90 which will not give any return* and further put money to improve it?



Did you forget that after ToT, 1000 T-90s will be made in India at AVADI. 

The workers in avadi can work on arjun or T-90 or not work at all, but they will get paid anyways.

DRDO will get funds for future research anyways. 

Did you also forget about the OFFSET clause. We normally have offset clause on everything related to Military purchases.

Let IA budget double or triple. Maybe then they can look for a new class of tanks.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> Did you forget that after ToT, 1000 T-90s will be made in India at AVADI.
> 
> The workers in avadi can work on arjun or T-90 or not work at all, but they will get paid anyways.
> 
> DRDO will get funds for future research anyways.
> 
> Did you also forget about the OFFSET clause. We normally have offset clause on everything related to Military purchases.
> 
> Let IA budget double or triple. Maybe then they can look for a new class of tanks.



You again started the same thing. Don't you know why the ToT was got hanged up? If that was in contract then why it was delayed? Why you are not able to understand a simple word called START. You have to start some where. If the GSQR is for this class of tank then this tank has been delivered. Don't DGMF know before setting up the GSQR that they have to maintain it also? Useless argument.


----------



## Black Stone

p2prada said:


> Sorry pal. Arjun is better.
> 
> T-90s couldn't *scratch* ARJUN at point blank range using HEAT shells.
> ARJUN does better in the desert too.
> 
> It is like the difference between Tiger tank and Sherman during WW2.
> 
> T-90s is simply cheaper.



T-90 is Russia's most modern tank. Arjun is India's first made tank and through it's journey contains many problems. The Russians have more experience and technical know how in making tanks than India. 

So it is difficult to convince that the Arjun is better. The Arjun might be better in some parameters, but overall, we cannot dismiss the T-90s capability.


----------



## Nihat

...........


> India tests indigenous main battle tank
> 
> Fits Arjun with Bofors gun
> 
> By Aharon Etengoff @ Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:47 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India has successfully tested its first indigenously-developed main battle tank (MBT).
> 
> The official Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) conducted trials of the Arjun and its advanced Bofors gun at Chandipuron, 15km from Balasore.
> 
> "The important test was functioning proof of Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition for Arjun. Today's tests, aimed at demonstration, showed encouraging results in terms of accuracy, acceleration and ballistic performance," explained PXE director Anoop Malhotra.
> 
> According to Malhotra, the Arjun weapon system is capable of firing both kinetic energy and chemical energy projectiles. The MBT is also fitted with secondary armaments, including a 12.7mm air defence gun and 7.62mm co-axial machine gun.
> 
> "The 130mm gun system of Russian origin is a potent weapon which can fire and destroy targets up to a range of 27.5km. The 105mm Indian field gun is the mainstay of Indian artillery. The FSAPDS ammunition with maximum nuzzle velocity of 1660m/s can defeat an armour target of 450mm thickness at a distance of 2.5km," added Arjun.
> 
> Development of the Arjun has reportedly been plagued by a number of glitches, including low accuracy, frequent breakdown of power packs and gun barrel malfunctions. However, the MoD has now granted a green light for the deployment of the Arjun, allowing the fulfillment of an army order for 124 tanks.
> 
> As IT Examiner previously reported, the Indian MoD has launched a slew of new defence projects designed to reduce the country's dependence on foreign imports. For example, the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) is currently developing a new generation of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) designed to deploy laser target designators (LTDs) deep inside enemy territory.
> 
> "We are planning to base LTDs on UAVs to cut down the risk of our troops getting caught inside enemy territory while illuminating targets for attack and save the cost of sending another aircraft for doing the task," explained a senior MoD official.
> 
> In addition, the Indian Air Force (IAF) recently tested an upgraded version of the Lakshya drone. The micro-light pilotless target aircraft was fitted with an advanced, digitally-controlled engine and successfully flown from the Integrated Test Range in Balasore. The indigenously-designed Lakshya was developed by the DRDO for the training of gun/missile crews and air defence pilots


----------



## ejaz007

After the order of 1000 T-90's is there any justification left for inducting Arjun. Arjun is not better than T-90 then why should an inferior product be inducted.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> After the order of 1000 T-90's is there any justification left for inducting Arjun. Arjun is not better than T-90 then why should an inferior product be inducted.



Err nope Arjuns are wa better then T90( modified t72's) on any given Sunday. Period. Pove me otherwise.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> So you want to keep yourself content with an inferior product although it can put your men's life in danger?



Yes, if our budget does not allow it.

Just a question... what would you have better tank force (which will give plausible advantages in a plausible full-blown war) or hi-tech modern net-centric helmets for all our military and para-military troops (which will be used across the length and breadth of our country)?

Also, define "inferior" here... plus is it only the quality of the product that matters? What about costs? In case of military equipment, logistics also matter.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Yes, if our budget does not allow it.
> 
> Just a question... what would you have better tank force (which will give plausible advantages in a plausible full-blown war) or hi-tech modern net-centric helmets for all our military and para-military troops (which will be used across the length and breadth of our country)?
> 
> Also, define "inferior" here... plus is it only the quality of the product that matters? What about costs? In case of military



So then why buy T 90 why go for T 72. When T 55 was there? Oh why go for T 55 when T 34 was there these must be cheaper then T 90. Keep more number of T 34 then buying a limited number of t 90 (i mean why buy only 1657 here rather then buy 5000-6000 T 34). Tell me which will give you advantage?

I am not saying stop using T 90 all I am saying is what is the problem in inducting arjun in some number when you have a force of 3500 tanks. Although it will increase the cost but it will help domestic industry. Why you are not ready to listen to this.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Ok find it, but again something said in some forum can't be a part of discussion. But any way try to find it. It will be a news that GSQR is formed by DRDO.



Nitesh, I have to apologize here. It seems I was wrong in my assertion.

You can, however, read Ajai's initial views on Arjun:

World Affairs Board - View Single Post - What is Best MBT in Asia?

I was unable to find these posts on BR though.



nitesh said:


> Why not do it in arjun? Why put the money in T 90 which will not give any return and further put money to improve it?



Because we have a limited budget. Also, won't T-90 come with full ToT? Last I checked, the problems were sorted out...


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> So then why buy T 90 why go for T 72. When T 55 was there? Oh why go for T 55 when T 34 was there these must be cheaper then T 90. Keep more number of T 34 then buying a limited number of t 90 (i mean why buy only 1657 here rather then buy 5000-6000 T 34). Tell me which will give you advantage?
> 
> I am not saying stop using T 90 all I am saying is what is the problem in inducting arjun in some number when you have a force of 3500 tanks. Although it will increase the cost but it will help domestic industry. Why you are not ready to listen to this.



Go back to my post: when one chooses a system, one looks at multiple factors.

In this case, let us limit ourselves to two: cost and capability.

T-90 satisfies both these parameters; the other tanks you have mentioned do not.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Go back to my post: when one chooses a system, one looks at multiple factors.
> 
> In this case, let us limit ourselves to two: cost and capability.
> 
> T-90 satisfies both these parameters; the other tanks you have mentioned do not.



What is this go and search in the net the georgia conflict (the most recent ones) check the battle of 1991 in IRAQ what has happened to the tanks there. Check what was done by marveka's. In T series there is absolutely no chance of survival when hit. According to you which cost is more human life or so called budget? DGMF will not go bankrupt if 500 arjun comes in.


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> What is this go and search in the net the georgia conflict (the most recent ones) check the battle of 1991 in IRAQ what has happened to the tanks there. Check what was done by marveka's. In T series there is absolutely no chance of survival when hit. According to you which cost is more human life or so called budget? DGMF will not go bankrupt if 500 arjun comes in.



Very true, but as I said: problem is money and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.

Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?

Also, what about doctrine and training?

Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Very true, but as I said: problem is money and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.
> 
> Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?
> 
> Also, what about doctrine and training?
> 
> Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?



Then why the GSQR was laid for for this type of tank? Hadn't this thinking came at that time? So all the T series tanks are the exactly same then. Why we are buying the same tanks with different names?


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> Then why the GSQR was laid for for this type of tank?



That I agree is a major goof-up.



nitesh said:


> Hadn't this thinking came at that time?



It didn't, and this is another goof-up.



nitesh said:


> So all the T series tanks are the exactly same then. Why we are buying the same tanks with different names?



Nites please tell me that's a joke. T-90S is much better than the T-72M1. They are similar, and not same.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> That I agree is a major goof-up.
> It didn't, and this is another goof-up.
> Nites please tell me that's a joke. T-90S is much better than the T-72M1. They are similar, and not same.


So exactly there is a goof up. Every body has to take a blame. Every tank is different. A tank is not a tank it is a combination of sub systems. So it is not simple to get any new tank in the system (read money spending). DRDO is developing a tank for the first time. So it is all more important to support them in this endeavor. IA has 61 regiments. Each regiment consists of 45-55 tanks (55 number is for T 55 and from t 72 onwards it is 45) So can't DGMF have 8-10 regiments of arjun (350-450 tanks) in inventory. So point comes about maintenance and all sort of stuff. So when the new gen tank comes online (in 15-20 years time line) how you will make the transition. Isn't that going to be easy/ How the crew which is trained for some old tech will make the transition (remember it is not only about money). Isn't the crews equipped with experience of arjun will come in handy then? Above all isn't this will simply help the domestic industry to get on to it's feet.


----------



## p2prada

Black Stone said:


> T-90 is Russia's most modern tank. Arjun is India's first made tank and through it's journey contains many problems. The Russians have more experience and technical know how in making tanks than India.
> 
> So it is difficult to convince that the Arjun is better. The Arjun might be better in some parameters, but overall, we cannot dismiss the T-90s capability.



During tests, the T-72 and T-90s fired at the ARJUN at point blank range. The shells just bounced off the armour. The only way to kill the ARJUN in the subcontinent is using top attack ATGMs or a rear attack. *The frontal and side armours are too damn tough even for the T-90s to penetrate.* I am only saying ARJUNs survival rate is far superior to the T-90. Not to mention, the ARJUN is a class apart and also the first of its kind in the subcontinent.

Electronics can be changed anytime. For eg: when the army complained DRDO was using analog systems which were inferior to the T-90 products. DRDO completely changed the electronics in the ARJUN in six months by importing french and israeli electronics. It pushed the ARJUN way past the T-90s capabilities. 

Even now, DRDO is pitching for mock tank battles between the T-90 and ARJUN. DRDO is confident of beating the T-90. The amy is just giving excuses to avoid the trails cause they know they will be beaten.

Nevertheless, IA is still not equipped to handle a heavy MBT.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Very true, but as I said: problem is *money *and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.



Vish sorry to butt into your discussion. When you say "money" are you talknig about the cost it will take to invest in Arjun vis a vi T90. Don't you think 3 or 4 million $ invested and circulated into Indian economy is wiser than the savings we occur by spending 2.5 million$ which we will be circulating in Russian industries strenthening their industrial abd sub contract industrial base. Now envision a massive order for Arjun(Hypothetically speaking) Think where those millions of $$ will end up, what a boost it will be to out MIC and how many number of subcontractors and fringe industries will come up. Think and think again. Do give a thought to what I say.



> Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?



Fuel tankes will be the one used for T90's and T72 everything you said except for armed recovery vehicles can be same one we are now using.



> Also, what about doctrine and training?



What about it? Arjun perfectly fits into our coldstart doctrine. It is not like t90 allows you to air drop it anywhere!!!!



> Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?



You are assuming he is not biased. In that case why does he chicken out for comparitive trials?


----------



## nitesh

All I am trying to say here is that arjun is a complex system developed for the first time. So it is important that the user gives it's support to it. If the user does not support the product there is no point in keep developing it. Because it is not similar to the systems the user is used too. Every product has some plus and negative points no product is invincible. Same is with the product arjun. But it is about supporting the domestic industry. So just buy them in number not in very high numbers but in a decent amount so that a proper experience can be gained and domestic industry gets a chance to stand on it's feet. Any way let's wait for the comparative trials in february. Let's hope for the best.


----------



## Nishan_101

Salam,
I wanted 2 ask some seniors that why contri like India wanted 2 continue a projet like Arjun(started in early70's) which is quite a failure and wanted 2 ask u can they just concentrate on their licence production by making it quality production which they have a good experience but they done wrong in past with T-90's& upgradation of T-72's.Also they can go for ex-U.S M1A1 or Callenger-II's in good nos.(About 1000's) and they can put those systems which they ave developed for Arjun on upgraded and licence produced tanks as well as on New ones. 
reply me 
ALLAH-HAFIZ ok


----------



## nitesh

Nishan_101 said:


> Salam,
> I wanted 2 ask some seniors that why contri like India wanted 2 continue a projet like Arjun(started in early70's) which is quite a failure and wanted 2 ask u can they just concentrate on their licence production by making it quality production which they have a good experience but they done wrong in past with T-90's& upgradation of T-72's.Also they can go for ex-U.S M1A1 or Callenger-II's in good nos.(About 1000's) and they can put those systems which they ave developed for Arjun on upgraded and licence produced tanks as well as on New ones.
> reply me
> ALLAH-HAFIZ ok



again what u said not made any sense put it in plain english so that people like me can understand


----------



## vish

Nitesh and IPF:

500 Arjun tanks will cost a bomb; their logistics tail will cost a nuke.

I'll give you one example:

You say we can use existing tankers; that is incorrect; we will need more fuel tankers.

And forget the cost of buying these additional fuel tankers, what about the cost of running these? Won't you be running these for a lifetime? What about their maintenance? Won't you be hiring further logistics personnel? Won't you be paying these personnel for a lifetime? Won't these tankers need parking space? Won't these personnel need living quarters?

And all this additional expense for what advantage? And at what cost? Also count in the fact that the T-90 meets IA's needs just about fine. Yes, there are issues but by and large the IA is very happy with the tank.

Plus the whole doctrine and the entire training procedure of the IA will need major revamping. What about the costs that will be encountered therein? Won't people need training to use Arjun effectively? Won't doctrinal changes be required as Arjun drinks more fuel (therefore, increased stoppages) and are a major qualitative leap? Won't the other arms of our Strike Corps or IBGs need to be revamped around the Arjun (this is again a very resource-consuming process)? Won't the entire spare parts set-up need revamping? Won't logistical complexities increase as the IA will now be operating two very different tank types?

I'm not denying that local industry needs to be encouraged, but do you not think that inducting Arjun is somewhat unfeasible, given our cost constraints?

Hence, why not try and incorporate inputs from the Arjun so as to keep the R&D momentum flowing?

Further, I'm not inclined to buy the argument of the DGMF being corrupt or biased.

He is not allowing a competitive trial because he knows the T-90 will be clobbered; then, will the government and babus accept the fact they are being nasty bean counters or that we do not have money for the country's defense? No, they won't; the blame will come squarely on the IA and specifically the DGMF. More Arjuns will be pushed down IA's throat without catering to the logistical handicaps. Further, this will be done from the existing budget, thereby cutting on IA&#8217;s other pressing needs (net-centric infantry suits and helmets and artillery for example).


----------



## nitesh

You still have not answered if this sort of tank was not feasible then why this type of GSQR was given. Why the same AC was made issue for arjun and not for T 90? Why it is getting upgraded as of now? Why not inducted a tank and made improvements in that. And why they are not able to come up with a design in 2 years? read this CAREFULLY (India's future tank nowhere in sight by AMARJEET MALIK-business-standard.com from Military School,Future Infantry Combat Vehicle, Future Main Battle Tank, Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, ArjunTank, Advanced Version of Arjun, Merkava Tan) 

your bomb and nuke theory is just a farce nothing else how come 10&#37; of the tank fleet can bankrupt the whole DGMF I don't know.

added later: any way this trial thing is going to get some un expected result be prepared for that. Some how I feel DGMF is on it's way to perfectly kill arjun project. Sad nothing can be done about it


----------



## vish

nitesh said:


> You still have not answered if this sort of tank was not feasible then why this type of GSQR was given. Why the same AC was made issue for arjun and not for T 90? Why it is getting upgraded as of now? Why not inducted a tank and made improvements in that. And why they are not able to come up with a design in 2 years? read this CAREFULLY (India's future tank nowhere in sight by AMARJEET MALIK-business-standard.com from Military School,Future Infantry Combat Vehicle, Future Main Battle Tank, Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, ArjunTank, Advanced Version of Arjun, Merkava Tan)
> 
> your bomb and nuke theory is just a farce nothing else how come 10&#37; of the tank fleet can bankrupt the whole DGMF I don't know.
> 
> added later: any way this trial thing is going to get some un expected result be prepared for that. Some how I feel DGMF is on it's way to perfectly kill arjun project. Sad nothing can be done about it



Didn't I say earlier that the GSQRs were a major goof-up? I asked because of that goof-up, should we commit one more?

As far as inducting a tank is concerned (even to 10% of the force levels), if you still haven't understood how costly and time-consuming it would be, you never would.

Nobody thought that the T-90 would need ACs; the IA found it out later.

As far as trials are concerned, I agree with you; however, you miss one point: the DGMF has no choice.


----------



## nitesh

vish said:


> Didn't I say earlier that the GSQRs were a major goof-up? I asked because of that goof-up, should we commit one more?
> 
> As far as inducting a tank is concerned (even to 10% of the force levels), if you still haven't understood how costly and time-consuming it would be, you never would.
> 
> Nobody thought that the T-90 would need ACs; the IA found it out later.
> 
> As far as trials are concerned, I agree with you; however, you miss one point: the DGMF has no choice.



you hadn't read it right any way read it



> Experts at the seminar  including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that countrys successful Merkava tank  pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.



Is it still not clear what i am trying to say. Again repeating my self. you have to START somewhere.


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> you hadn't read it right any way read it
> 
> *Experts at the seminar  including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that countrys successful Merkava tank  pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.*
> 
> Is it still not clear what i am trying to say. Again repeating my self. you have to START somewhere.




DRDO will be designing newer variants for the ARJUN. Each newer variant will be better than the existing one. DRDO will receive funding. just because we dont induct it doesn't mean the ARJUN is scrapped.

We understand what you are trying to say?? We support it too. It will obviously be good if the ARJUNs are inducted. All we are suggesting is that a new class of tanks is still too early for us to handle. We will need a major defense hike to actually be able to induct the ARJUNs successfully.


----------



## p2prada

> you have to START somewhere



But where will it END. We are not equipped to handle the ARJUNs. Most of the tanks 15 years down the line will need parts replacement, engine replacement which the IA will not be able to afford. We can buy the tank. But we can't maintain it. We can start with the ARJUNs. But half the tank fleet will END up in the scrap yard cause of bad maintainance.

We will need to look before we leap.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> DRDO will be designing newer variants for the ARJUN. Each newer variant will be better than the existing one. DRDO will receive funding. just because we dont induct it doesn't mean the ARJUN is scrapped.
> 
> We understand what you are trying to say?? We support it too. It will obviously be good if the ARJUNs are inducted. All we are suggesting is that a new class of tanks is still too early for us to handle. We will need a major defense hike to actually be able to induct the ARJUNs successfully.


Still you are not getting the word called START. It has to START. Read the link I provided some posts before CAREFULLY.


----------



## nitesh

worth reading, especially for vish and p2prada  :
Central Chronicle--Column

Arjun Main Battle Tank 

India, which is the second largest importer of defence hardware in the world, has made little headway in the indigenous design and development of military systems required by the three wings of the Services. This is mainly due to lack of synergy between the user, on the one hand, and the developer on the other. Indeed, analysts keeping a close watch on the defence scenario have expressed surprise as to why India, which has already made spectacular advances in space exploration as exemplified by the recent launch of Chandrayaan-1, has failed to repeat this success story in defence research, development and production.

The unsavoury spat between the Army and the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the performance of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), designed by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and produced by the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, near Chennai could have serious repercussions. It could well mean that the Army would continue to depend on the import of Russian built T-90 tank, whose technology is by no means contemporary and whose performance is no way better than that of Arjun.

Citing delays in delivery and deficiencies in performance during field trials, the Army has refused to buy more than 124 Arjun MBTs. "Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT. Arjun, at this stage would only mean India lagging behind in the technological race in the armoured fighting vehicle. Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so but not for technologically advanced next generation warfare, some two decades hence", the Army's Director General (Mechanized Infantry), Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj has observed. However, he was unclear as to what kind of futuristic tank the Army was looking for and how it would go about acquiring it.

In fact, Yossi Ben-Hanan credited with designing Israel's highly-successful Merkava tank pointed out during his visit to India that tank design is evolutionary, in that each design builds upon the previous ones. "A decision taken today to build an Indian MBT is only 15 years hence," he explained. Clearly, the Indian army has not followed this well proven path if its fascination for the Russian built T-90 tank is any indication.

Like many other Indo-Russian defence deals, the 2001 contract for the supply of 310 T-90 tanks had its fair share of controversy. To begin with, Moscow has flagrantly violated the agreement by not transferring the technology and components to build 1000 T-90 tanks at HVP. Even seven years after the deal, not a single T-90 had rolled out of HVF. Evidently, Russia had failed to provide India with critical technologies and vital components for the production of the tank on home ground.

On top of this, the fire control system of T-90 had failed to perform as per specifications during field trials in the sandy stretches of Western India. What was the most galling part of the whole exercise was that the air conditioning system supplied by Russia could not prevent the fainting of the tank driver! India has now floated a global tender for a suitable air conditioner for T-90.

Far from taking Russia to task for failing to honour the commitment, the Army has ordered an additional 330 T-90s. Interestingly, Indian defence analysts see this as the Indian deal saving Russia's largest tank manufacturer Ural Vagan Zavod from bankruptcy. For, there are hardly any takers for the T-90s. The Army hopes to field a force of over 21 regiments of T-90 tanks and 40 regiments of modified T-72s.

Moreover, thanks to India's poor expertise in designing armoured vehicles, it took over three decades to develop Arjun, which on expected lines was deficient in technology and had slippages in performance. But after each field trial, the shortcomings were rectified. CVRDE researchers say that Arjun is the most advanced tank in its class and asserts that it "can handle all present and future threats."

Last year, CVRDE had supplied 14 Arjun tanks to the Indian army for trials but all were returned with a list of defects. DRDO sources claimed that each individual defect and deficiency pointed out to by the army was set right. The refusal, according to a former member of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board R Sundaram basically means that the Army was not impressed with Arjun even at this stage although on all parameters, such as horse power, speed, suspension, mobility, rifled barrel and communications set was way ahead of Russian built tanks.

The Army has also rejected DRDO's proposal for a futuristic main battle tank Arjun-2 with advanced technology features, including upgraded engines, digital fire control system and a battle field management system. The Parliament's Standing Committee attached to the Defence Ministry in its 14th report had stated that Arjun-2 production will be taken up after the completion of the order for 124 Arjun MBT. The report had also observed, "MBT Arjun is a 60-tonne class battle tank with a state-of-the-art product specifically configured to meet the requirements of the Indian army".

CVRDE claims that the firing accuracy of Arjun is far superior to the Russian-made tanks. It has second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at a distance of 2,500-metres. Its 1,400 hp engine makes for smooth mobility and has the capacity to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank Missile. Further, the tank features a gas-based suspension, unique "Kanchan" composite armour capable of withstanding hits from tanks and kinetic energy penetrators, which can shatter enemy tanks. However, for the CVRDE to break even, a minimum order of 500 is a vital requirement. This is so as it has made a massive investment on the infrastructure meant for designing the Arjun.

The DRDO is of the firm opinion that the Army's complaint of Arjun failing crucial trials does not reflect the ground reality. According to it, the failure occurred during extended trials. "Normally, a tank is supposed to operate for 3,000-kms before it goes for overhaul. The Army forced Arjun to do another 2,000-km and the reported failure happened after the tank went on for over 4000-kms trial. Nothing will progress if the Army keeps shifting its goal posts. Why don't they do a comparative trial between Arjun-T-90 against a laid down set of parameters", is the DRDO's argument.

All said and done, Arjun is not a 100 per cent Indian product. Over half of the components in the first batch of 124 tanks are imported. However, DRDO points out that imported content in the tank will eventually be reduced in a phased manner. The goal is to reduce the imported component to less than 30 per cent after 500 tanks are produced.

In this context, defence analysts say "the time, effort and money spent on developing indigenous fighting equipment, including Arjun should not be squandered away in pursuit of pipe dreams on technology or mindless fascination for foreign equipment." But then, the defence establishment is yet to involve the Army in the entire process -- of designing, developing, producing and testing the hardware for meeting its "stringent specifications" and get a commitment for the procurement of the product.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Nitesh and IPF:
> 
> 500 A*rjun tanks will cost a bomb*; their *logistics tail will cost a nuke.*
> 
> I'll give you one example:
> 
> *You say we can use existing tankers; that is incorrect; we will need more fuel tankers*.



Give orders for 1000 or more Arjuns and you shall find the price of Arjuns falling like a deck of card. More the number of Arjuns lesser their price ... Makes sense dosen't it?

Nope the fuel tankers will be of the same type , you don't need any special vehicle except for ARV period. Arjun's logistic tail will be same as T90's or T72.





> And forget the cost of buying these additional fuel tankers, *what about the cost of running these?* Won't you be running these for a lifetime? What about their maintenance? *Won't you be hiring further logistics personnel? Won't you be paying these personnel for a lifetime? Won't these tankers need parking space? Won't these personnel need living* quarters?



The cost will be same as T90's I don't find anything significant here. Afterall it is supposed to be made in India.

What make you think we cannot retool our personnel. The same guys who switched from western to Russian tanks can manage to learn back. I just don't understand how this issue has been blown out of proportion. All you need is a standard manual of operation and need to stick to that. The rest is what you learn on the way.

Above all isi'nt the prie worth paying for the safety of our boys who drive them, a tank which ensures that they are more survivable and have a good chance of coming back home, a tank which does not burn lke a frying pan on taking a hit because the T90's did not have safety features in mind?(No bustle rack) while Arjun has superior safety in mind. Above all it is my tax money and I want it to be well spent and to well equip the our boys rather than letting them die a horrible death.



> Plus the whole doctrine and the entire training procedure of the IA will need major revamping. What about the costs that will be encountered therein? Won't people need training to use Arjun effectively? Won't doctrinal changes be required as Arjun drinks more fuel (therefore, increased stoppages) and are a major qualitative leap? Won't the other arms of our Strike Corps or IBGs need to be revamped around the Arjun (this is again a very resource-consuming process)? Won't the entire spare parts set-up need revamping? Won't logistical complexities increase as the IA will now be operating two very different tank types?



These are things every army has to go through to become modern relatively in that given time period. If IAF can accept the notion of a western aircraft, if IA can move towards net centric warfare and cold start I don't see this as a problem. In fact this is ther perfect time for induction of Arjun as IA is in a period of transition , thus the change needs 6o be made right now.



> I'm not denying that local industry needs to be encouraged, but do you not think that inducting Arjun is somewhat unfeasible, given our cost constraints?



All major industrial economies have a solid Millitary Industrial Complex . Thus investing in local industry means more R&D from private sector, more competiotion and more innovation. Thus for a price of 3.5 m$ to 4m$ per tank (which will fall dramatically if the price is decreased)) , the growth tat this will bring in to small and large private players is pretty worth the price.




> Hence, why not try and incorporate inputs from the Arjun so as to keep the* R&D momentum *flowing?



There will be no momentum unless private players enter the field and unless existing units start making profit and become sustainable.



> Further, I'm not inclined to buy the argument of the DGMF being corrupt or biased.



For all we know , he an be either ways.



> He is not allowing a competitive trial because he knows the T-90 will be clobbered; then, will the government and babus accept the fact they are being nasty bean counters or that we do not have money for the country's defense? No, they won't; the blame will come squarely on the IA and specifically the DGMF. More Arjuns will be pushed down IA's throat without catering to the l*ogistical handicaps*. Further, this will be done from the existing budget, thereby cutting on IAs other pressing needs (net-centric infantry suits and helmets and artillery for example).



If you can't manage these logistical handicaps then you don't deserve to be a great army or a great nation,


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## nitesh

TRISHUL: Arjun Mk1 MBT: Surviving & Winning
hope this comes true:







The above illustration graphically illustrates how exactly the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be employed in a future armoured campaign, as visualised by the Indian Army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces. It is in such a scenario that the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be subjected to competitive firepower and mobility trials against the T-90S MBT early next year. As the Arjun Mk1 comes equipped with a battlespace management system (BMS) and the T-90S does not, the former will have a decisive edge against the T-90S when it comes to enhanced situational awareness, as the Arjun Mk1 will be able to get real-time SITREPS on enemy dispositions and movements from the Army's Corps-level BMS (which in turn derive their real-time inputs from UAVs) and be able to engage in decisive manoeuvre warfare of the type not possible at the moment with either the T-90S or the T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeya MBTs. No wonder the Indian Army is coy about subjecting the Arjun Mk1 MBT and T-90S to competitive performance trials. It's that simple--Prasun K. Sengupta


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## nitesh

at least this controversy is gone:

PIB Press Release
The Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun were not tampered during any trials. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Krishan Lal Balmiki and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today. Reliability trials have been carried out systematically by the army with successful results, he added. Shri Antony said the DRDO has not proposed any enquiry into the matter.


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## shchinese

nitesh said:


> at least this controversy is gone:
> 
> PIB Press Release
> The Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun were not tampered during any trials. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Krishan Lal Balmiki and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today. Reliability trials have been carried out systematically by the army with successful results, he added. Shri Antony said the DRDO has not proposed any enquiry into the matter.



30 years after the start of this project, anyone should expect much more from such "reliability" trials. 

guess what? the best reliability trial is to put it into operational service and let the army use it in their day to day training and operations. here I am talking about mass production scale, not a few dozens in the army for joke purpose.


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## nitesh

shchinese said:


> 30 years after the start of this project, anyone should expect much more from such "reliability" trials.
> 
> guess what? the best reliability trial is to put it into operational service and let the army use it in their day to day training and operations. here I am talking about mass production scale, not a few dozens in the army for joke purpose.



Arjun has taken a lot of time to come up it was supposed to be ready in late 90's but project is delayed. Armed forces have habit of ordering in batches. And first batch is already delivered 15 are in service with other 124 supposed to be inducted. But after doing the trials DGMF wants changes.


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## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Arjun has taken a lot of time to come up it was supposed to be ready in late 90's but project is delayed. Armed forces have habit of ordering in batches. And first batch is already delivered 15 are in service with other 124 supposed to be inducted. But after doing the trials DGMF wants changes.



Dude the "15" in service number is not credible as I have seen it being claimed since the 90's..got anything to back up the claim that they are inducted?


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Dude the "15" in service number is not credible as I have seen it being claimed since the 90's..got anything to back up the claim that they are inducted?



These are given for trial purpose :Indian Army Rejects Competitive Trials of Arjun Main Battle Tank | India Defence


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## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> These are given for trial purpose :Indian Army Rejects Competitive Trials of Arjun Main Battle Tank | India Defence



Exactly my friend.....I have a book written in 2003 that claims this as well as a book written in 1998 that claims the same number. Now either they are inducted for use or they are being tested for the last 5-8 years...which is it?


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Exactly my friend.....I have a book written in 2003 that claims this as well as a book written in 1998 that claims the same number. Now either they are inducted for use or they are being tested for the last 5-8 years...which is it?



It's in for testing there were lot of problems but getting sorted out. The comparative trials are due. Can happen any time then the future will be decided about future order. 124 are already ordered.


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## nitesh

Last Bid to save Arjun

Keeping fingers crossed


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## ejaz007

*Indian Army to Hold Competitive Trials for Argun MBT, T-90*
Dated 14/1/2009


The Indian Army will conduct head-to-head "comparative trials" of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT), under development for over three decades, and the Russian-built T-90 tanks in June. This is seen as a last desperate bid to save the Arjun project that has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million).

The Indian Army had hitherto been ambiguous on the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) demand that the Arjun tank, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for nearly 36 years, be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 tanks that the army currently operates. "Any comparison or comments on the performance or reliability (between Arjun and T-90 tanks) can be made only after the Arjun undergoes comparative trials, which we intend to conduct in June this summer," a senior army official told IANS.

The army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT. The DRDO demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible.

Drawing a comparison between the two tanks, DRDO says Arjun has a greater power-to-weight ratio, a hydro-pneumatic suspension system for a more comfortable ride, a stable platform to fire on the move and a superior fire control system. "The Arjun costs Rs.168 million while the T-90 costs around Rs.120 million. But, then, the Arjun compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs of its class that cost in the range of Rs.170 to 240 million," a DRDO official said.

However, experts see the Arjun tank as complete disaster.

"The Arjun tank is cumbersome for strategic movement, i.e. to be taken from one sector to another. It is too wide and too heavy to be moved in the railway carriages that we have in India. The comparative trials are just an eyewash as Arjun is incomparable to T-90," said strategic analyst, retired Lt. Col. Anil Bhat. The army had last year told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

It listed various defects, including a deficient engine and fire control system, inaccurate guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tanks inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius. The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistans decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

Indian Army to Hold Competitive Trials for Argun MBT, T-90 | India Defence


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## nitesh

Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer .


Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer



New Delhi, Jan 16 (PTI) Army and DRDO will jointly carry out comparative trials of indigenous 'Arjun' tanks with Russian-made T-90s this June, increasing prospects of the former's induction in the force soon.
The trials would pave the way for the army to finally accept Arjun tanks for induction, over 36 years after the project was commissioned by the government, defence ministry sources told PTI here today.

"The comparative trials of Arjun tanks with the Russian-made T-90s would take place this summer in June, before the army gets to induct the indigenously developed tanks," a defence ministry source said.

These trials will come exactly a year after the summer trials of Arjun tanks in the Rajasthan deserts had "failed", compelling Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh to suspect "sabotage" to be behind the tanks performing below expectations during the trials.

The trial in June, sources said, would be the first of the series under which the army and the DRDO would test and compare technologies and capabilities of the two tanks.

"During the summer trials of the two tanks in June, they will be subjected to various other comparative tests in the following months and it is likely to be completed by June 2010," the source said.

After the trials, the army and the DRDO would carry out a detailed analysis of the tests to determine which of the two tanks was better, sources said. PTI


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer .
> 
> 
> Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer
> 
> 
> 
> New Delhi, Jan 16 (PTI) Army and DRDO will jointly carry out comparative trials of indigenous 'Arjun' tanks with Russian-made T-90s this June, increasing prospects of the former's induction in the force soon.
> The trials would pave the way for the army to finally accept Arjun tanks for induction, over 36 years after the project was commissioned by the government, defence ministry sources told PTI here today.
> 
> "The comparative trials of Arjun tanks with the Russian-made T-90s would take place this summer in June, before the army gets to induct the indigenously developed tanks," a defence ministry source said.
> 
> These trials will come exactly a year after the summer trials of Arjun tanks in the Rajasthan deserts had "failed", compelling Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh to suspect "sabotage" to be behind the tanks performing below expectations during the trials.
> 
> The trial in June, sources said, would be the first of the series under which the army and the DRDO would test and compare technologies and capabilities of the two tanks.
> 
> "During the summer trials of the two tanks in June, they will be subjected to various other comparative tests in the following months and it is likely to be completed by June 2010," the source said.
> 
> *After the trials, the army and the DRDO would carry out a detailed analysis of the tests to determine which of the two tanks was better, sources said.* PTI



this can led to the further contradiction if they found arjun is better.


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## nitesh

I think this whole exercise is going on to take the things to logical conclusion. Hope the things move in right direction.


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## spsk

India has already placed orders for Russian MBT , No idea why they are doing this...


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## nitesh

^^

Because they want to evaluate both the tanks


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## valkyr

actually the Arjun may just see induction in different form in 2015 and beyond years as the evolution of technology and tank design proceeds. Its already greatly improved since 2005. Before that it was a piece of junk at best .........


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## shchinese

valkyr said:


> actually the Arjun may just see induction in different form in 2015 and beyond years as the evolution of technology and tank design proceeds. Its already greatly improved since 2005. Before that it was a piece of junk at best .........



don't forget to mention the huge improvement made after its first public demo in 1984. you know, in just 25 years, the improvement is very impressive - I mean it is just amazing to have a project running for 30 years and nothing get ready for active service. 

spirit of india.


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## shchinese

I think the whole problem is not because of the population/engineers/scientists of India, they are same as all other people from all other countries, I think the problem is in the regime of India who tries to use this project to gain control of the country and spread nationalism. 

look at our J-9 project in 1970s and early 1980s, we started working on it in 1975 and after 8 years of hard working, we *honestly* admitted that it was a failure and a backward design like that won't make any great fighters for the next 1-2 decades. We moved on, started working on the J-10 which is based on the experience learnt during the J-9 project. Look at the layout, very similar, but J-9 is just a failure. The Chinese government knows the failure of a project is far better than running a failed project for decades, money can be better spent on other things like education. 

Now we already have the J-10 in active service since 2003, that is 6 years ago. we have already moved on to another higher stage and working on other projects. tell me what arjun has contributed to India's 1 billion population? just plain nationalism. 

same story can be said for the MBT development. Our MBTs used in the war with Vietnam was a piece of ****, got almost half destroyed during that war, however we admitted the problem, stop production/spending on such crap and now we have Type-96/Type-99 in active service and the largely improved Type99A2 is going to be shown to the public in Oct. and enter service soon. 

nationalism gets you no where, honestly admit your failures, stop wasting lives on failed projects like arjun and LCA, learn more from US/Russia/EU/China, get yourself moved into modern era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-9

here I feel proud for the failed J-9 project, I feel proud for the honesty of our decision makers and engineers, they didn't sit there wasting tax money for decades on a failed project. mostly importantly, they contributed a fighter than can directly hit New Delhi in minutes.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## rajk20002002

shchinese said:


> I..............................mostly importantly, they contributed a fighter than can directly hit New Delhi in minutes.



Chinese minutes ? I am sure you are holding a watch without batteries....LOL

RK


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## ju87

shchinese said:


> I think the whole problem is not because of the population/engineers/scientists of India, they are same as all other people from all other countries, I think the problem is in the regime of India who tries to use this project to gain control of the country and spread nationalism.
> 
> look at our J-9 project in 1970s and early 1980s, we started working on it in 1975 and after 8 years of hard working, we *honestly* admitted that it was a failure and a backward design like that won't make any great fighters for the next 1-2 decades. We moved on, started working on the J-10 which is based on the experience learnt during the J-9 project. Look at the layout, very similar, but J-9 is just a failure. The Chinese government knows the failure of a project is far better than running a failed project for decades, money can be better spent on other things like education.
> 
> Now we already have the J-10 in active service since 2003, that is 6 years ago. we have already moved on to another higher stage and working on other projects. tell me what arjun has contributed to India's 1 billion population? just plain nationalism.
> 
> same story can be said for the MBT development. Our MBTs used in the war with Vietnam was a piece of ****, got almost half destroyed during that war, however we admitted the problem, stop production/spending on such crap and now we have Type-96/Type-99 in active service and the largely improved Type99A2 is going to be shown to the public in Oct. and enter service soon.
> 
> nationalism gets you no where, honestly admit your failures, stop wasting lives on failed projects like arjun and LCA, learn more from US/Russia/EU/China, get yourself moved into modern era.
> 
> Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> here I feel proud for the failed J-9 project, I feel proud for the honesty of our decision makers and engineers, they didn't sit there wasting tax money for decades on a failed project. mostly importantly, they contributed a fighter than can directly hit New Delhi in minutes.



So you don't think Indian engineers learn from their mistakes? What's your point? The Arjun and the LCA are taking so long because their developers are correcting their mistakes. Btw, LCA is not the first Indian designed jet, look up the HAL Marut. It wasn't useful, but heck, it was a start.


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## Egolym

ju87 said:


> So you don't think Indian engineers learn from their mistakes? What's your point? The Arjun and the LCA are taking so long because their developers are correcting their mistakes. Btw, LCA is not the first Indian designed jet, look up the HAL Marut. It wasn't useful, but heck, it was a start.




their developers are going to die in another 30 yrs....
Let's wait and see...


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## LCA

shchinese said:


> I think the whole problem is not because of the population/engineers/scientists of India, they are same as all other people from all other countries, I think the problem is in the regime of India who tries to use this project to gain control of the country and spread nationalism.
> 
> look at our J-9 project in 1970s and early 1980s, we started working on it in 1975 and after 8 years of hard working, we *honestly* admitted that it was a failure and a backward design like that won't make any great fighters for the next 1-2 decades. We moved on, started working on the J-10 which is based on the experience learnt during the J-9 project. Look at the layout, very similar, but J-9 is just a failure. The Chinese government knows the failure of a project is far better than running a failed project for decades, money can be better spent on other things like education.
> 
> Now we already have the J-10 in active service since 2003, that is 6 years ago. we have already moved on to another higher stage and working on other projects. tell me what arjun has contributed to India's 1 billion population? just plain nationalism.
> 
> same story can be said for the MBT development. Our MBTs used in the war with Vietnam was a piece of ****, got almost half destroyed during that war, however we admitted the problem, stop production/spending on such crap and now we have Type-96/Type-99 in active service and the largely improved Type99A2 is going to be shown to the public in Oct. and enter service soon.
> 
> nationalism gets you no where, honestly admit your failures, stop wasting lives on failed projects like arjun and LCA, learn more from US/Russia/EU/China, get yourself moved into modern era.
> 
> Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> here I feel proud for the failed J-9 project, I feel proud for the honesty of our decision makers and engineers, they didn't sit there wasting tax money for decades on a failed project. mostly importantly, they contributed a fighter than can directly hit New Delhi in minutes.



I don't know where the hell this failed J-9 and copied J-10 came in the arjun discussion.


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## badguy2000

excuse me,is the project of Arjun still going on?
I heard that the project now is aborted .


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## nitesh

nope it is not aborted.


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## macintosh

badguy2000 said:


> excuse me,is the project of Arjun still going on?
> I heard that the project now is aborted .



Either read previous posts on this thread or search on web.
The project is going on full fledge and recently it was decided to conduct Arjun v/s T-90 trials.


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## nitesh

India boosts arms modernisation after Mumbai - International Herald Tribune

India is speeding a nearly $1 billion (704 million pounds) domestic weapons development programme to modernise its armed forces, the defence research department said on Thursday, following renewed tensions with Pakistan over the attacks in Mumbai.

*The plans include inducting 124 main battle tanks for the Indian army by December, the first of a batch of locally-made combat aircraft for the navy also by the end of the year, and unmaned aerial vehicles to boost border surveillance.*

"There is a certain push now to complete projects on time and deliver the goods for low intensity battles or to counter bigger security threats in the region," Suranjan Pal, a spokesman of the government-run Defence Research and Development Organisation, said.

Tensions between India and Pakistan mounted after the attacks in Mumbai in November, which New Delhi said were carried out by Pakistani nationals and must have had support from Pakistani state agencies.

Since the Mumbai attacks, local media has highlighted the many antiquated weapons system that India has, from artillery to tanks, and poor surveillance capabilities.

"India's military capability had been shrinking as modernisation efforts were moving very slowly, but now there is more interest being shown," C. Uday Bhaskar, a strategic affairs expert, said.

*The modernisation plans include developing the Agni-5 missile, capable of carrying a nuclear warhead and hitting targets 5,000 km (3,100 miles) away, and torpedoes and planes for the navy.*

India is also one of the world's biggest arms importers, but government officials and experts said the priority was to boost indigenous capacity and reduce reliance on foreign suppliers.

"Foreign countries are generally not interested in sharing critical technology with us, so we are pushing more for indigenous development," Pal said.

The DRDO has often been criticised in the past by experts for delays on key projects, including the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and an Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS).

*The naval version of the LCA will enter service in December this year (VDM) while the air force will get 20 planes next year.* The aircraft is a supersonic, all-weather fighter which has been under development for more than two decades.


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## nitesh

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Army falls for Arjun, induction by month-end
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, February 6
In what may be considered as a fillip for the country&#8217;s indigenous production of defence equipment, the first-ever fleet of Indian-made Arjun battle tanks would be inducted into the Army by February end.

A total 45 tanks would form this armoured regiment and the first order of tanks is expected to arrive within next three weeks. In the first phase, 18-20 tanks would be handed over to the Indian Army by the heavy vehicle factory, Avadi, Tamil Nadu. Already, about 85 tanks are in various stages of production.

Notably, the induction is coming almost 36 years after India announced its programme to build own tanks, and the process was laced with glitches and delays.

The tanks would be available at the Armoured Corps Centre and School (ACCS), Ahmednagar, Maharashtra, where training of personnel would be carried out. It would take a few months more before the Arjun is actually deployed in one of the armoured corps on field duties. It is likely that the deployment could be the Indo-Pak border where a majority of the 59 tank regiments of the Army are deployed.

The induction is coming despite stiff opposition from within the armed forces, which tested the tank to the hilt and agreed only after various parameters were met. Defence Minister AK Antony stood his ground and made it clear that the 58-tonne Arjun would be inducted, as it was working fine.

Well-placed sources in the government said the tanks earlier had to be handed over by January end, but the deadline was extended by a month. Sources in Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) confirmed that the tanks were ready for shipment and handing-over to the Army.

Rather, the move implies that the induction would be carried out without waiting for the much-awaited comparative trials of the indigenous Arjun tanks with Russian-made T-90s, as had been desired by the DRDO.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

New engine test facility at Avadi CVRDE- Engineering-Ind'l Goods / Svs-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

New engine test facility at Avadi CVRDE
7 Feb 2009, 1810 hrs IST, Balasubramanian, ET Bureau

A new state of the art engine test facility has been set up at combat vehicles research and development establisihment (CVRDE) at Avadi in Chenai. CVRDE is an important sstablishment under DRDO dedicated towards design and development of armoured fighting vehicles for the Indian Army.

Dr. A. Sivathanupillai, a distinguished scientist and chief controller (R&D) NS & ACE, DRDO Hqrs. Delhi inaugurated the new facility. *It has two test cells capable of testing the engines up to 1500 KW and 800 KW power respectively*

*Speaking on the occasion, he said the other programmes of CVRDE for developing battle management system and creation of a simulation facility for main battle tank incorporating the high-tech features are progressing steadily and called upon one and all to continue the sustained hard work for their success.* S Sundaresh, an outstanding scientist, director CVRDE Avadi Chennai was present on the occasion.


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## kokkaborra

ARJUN IS A FAIL AND FLOP INDIAN TANK.I HAD READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT HIM THAT HIS ENGINE WARMUPS VERY EARLY AND HE COULD NOT COMPAIR TO THE PAKS ALKHALID AND ALZARRAR THAY ARE PROFESSIONALS.
INDIA SHOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT HIS TANK TECNOLOGY ONCE AGAIN.


MANY THANKS:


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## proud_indian

thanks a lot for ur concern

we will definaitly try our best to pass it to our defence ministry.


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## CrazyEagle9

I think we don't need to worry about chinese quality tanks :--
look this video....







Lolzz.....How can that tank even fire straight..?????

*Al-Khalid,Al-Zarrar both are based on chinese technology...then according to this video..we can see how they are....they can do every thing, except firing straight....Lolzz.....*

And remember that..this Type-99 in video is the latest tank of china... while Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar are based on even older chinese Type-90 and Type-59 tanks...

So, don't need to worry about joint development of china-pakistan also...
I hope JF-17 is not of same quality..like that chinese tank in video..

Any one has similar video about ARJUN Gun stabilization..???

sorry for off topic.

Let my friends from pakistan keep dreaming that they have world class tanks..


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## CrazyEagle9

War-Lord said:


> Here I have found a documentary of Arjun. You will notice the difference between type99 clearly.



Thanks..Man....But I was asking about Gun Stabilization video for Arjun.


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## CrazyEagle9

Arjun tank gets vote of support from Indian Army chief-India-The Times of India

*Arjun tank gets vote of support from Indian Army chief*

NEW DELHI: In a reversal of the Indian Army's stand on the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, which has been 37 years in the making, *army
chief General Deepak Kapoor has written to the defence ministry appreciating the tank's performance.*

The army chief's letter has come months before the MBT Arjun, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for more than three decades, is headed for head-to-head 'comparative trials' with the Russian T-90 tanks that the army currently operates.

"The army chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'," a defence ministry official told IANS on the condition of anonymity.

The letter from the army chief came after last year's winter trials of the tank, which has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The stand is a complete u-turn as the army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation's (DRDO) demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible.

"The defence ministry had been pushing for the joint trials for the past one-and-a-half-years but people in the military set up were not too keen," the official added.

A reluctant army had also said that the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

However, the defence ministry, which has been putting thrust on the indigenisation of the defence industry, wanted to see the project through.

On Feb 11, Defence Minister A.K. Antony had expressed his happiness on the Arjun tank becoming "a reality". "We have seen light at the end of the tunnel," Antony had said speaking of the project.

The tank has been mired in controversy with the army last year having told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh hinted at the possibility of "sabotage" during the 2007 winter trials.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.


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## LCA

This is a good move by army.

As i said earlier if arjun perform well in trials then lot of question will be raised,means further delay and controversy.

Finally, we will see the step by step induction and development of arjun tank,like LCA.


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## wangrong

infinite_dreams9586 said:


> I think we don't need to worry about chinese quality tanks :--
> look this video....
> 
> 5S-tARDgbt0[/media] - China PLA Type 99 VS Japan JGSDF Type 90 MBT Ability Battle
> 
> 
> Lolzz.....How can that tank even fire straight..?????
> 
> *Al-Khalid,Al-Zarrar both are based on chinese technology...then according to this video..we can see how they are....they can do every thing, except firing straight....Lolzz.....*
> 
> And remember that..this Type-99 in video is the latest tank of china... while Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar are based on even older chinese Type-90 and Type-59 tanks...
> 
> So, don't need to worry about joint development of china-pakistan also...
> I hope JF-17 is not of same quality..like that chinese tank in video..
> 
> Any one has similar video about ARJUN Gun..???
> 
> sorry for off topic.
> 
> Let my friends from pakistan keep dreaming that they have world class tanks..




1&#12289;*YouTube - China PLA Type 96 VS Japan JGSDF Type 90 MBT Ability Battle*

2&#12289;*Type 96 has not opened bistable *


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## wangrong

*Type 96*





*Type 98*


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## wangrong

*Type 99*




*Type 99 A1*


*Type 99A2*


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## Bull

Indigenous MBT Arjun gets vote of support from Indian Army Chief 

New Delhi, Feb 19: In a reversal of the Indian Army's stand on the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, which has been 37 years in the making, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor has written to the Defence Ministry appreciating the tank's performance. 

The Army Chief's letter has come months before the MBT Arjun, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for more than three decades, is headed for head-to-head 'comparative trials' with the Russian T-90 tanks that the Army currently operates. 

"The Army Chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'," a defence ministry official told reporters on the condition of anonymity. 

The letter from the Army Chief came after last year's winter trials of the tank, which has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The stand is a complete u-turn as the army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. 

The Defence Research & Development Organisation's (DRDO) demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible. 

"The Defence Ministry had been pushing for the joint trials for the past one-and-a-half-years but people in the military set up were not too keen," the official added. 

A reluctant Army had also said that the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT. 

However, the Defence Ministry, which has been putting thrust on the indigenisation of the defence industry, wanted to see the project through. 

On Feb 11, Defence Minister A.K. Antony had expressed his happiness on the Arjun tank becoming "a reality". "We have seen light at the end of the tunnel," Antony had said speaking of the project. 

The tank has been mired in controversy with the army last year having told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank. 

Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh hinted at the possibility of "sabotage" during the 2007 winter trials. 

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995. 

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. 

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001. 

IANS


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## nitesh

That's good news finally army is gaining confidence.


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## silent warrior

The Army Chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'.
it is a good news ...
Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.
i m hopefull now we can see one the best tank in large scale..


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## 24*

lets face it....ARJUN IS A FLOP ...37 YEARS IN MAKING! Its time to move on


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## heartwinlion

I think from the experience of Arjun MBT. Army should go to Tank EX for future without any controversy.

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR - Volume 4(5)


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## ejaz007

*Indigenous MBT Arjun gets vote of support from Indian Army Chief *

New Delhi, Feb 19: In a reversal of the Indian Army's stand on the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, which has been 37 years in the making, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor has written to the Defence Ministry appreciating the tank's performance. 

The Army Chief's letter has come months before the MBT Arjun, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for more than three decades, is headed for head-to-head 'comparative trials' with the Russian T-90 tanks that the Army currently operates. 

"The Army Chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'," a defence ministry official told reporters on the condition of anonymity. 

The letter from the Army Chief came after last year's winter trials of the tank, which has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The stand is a complete u-turn as the army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. 

*The Defence Research & Development Organisation's (DRDO) demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible. *

"The Defence Ministry had been pushing for the joint trials for the past one-and-a-half-years but people in the military set up were not too keen," the official added. 

*A reluctant Army had also said that the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT. *

However, the Defence Ministry, which has been putting thrust on the indigenisation of the defence industry, wanted to see the project through. 

On Feb 11, Defence Minister A.K. Antony had expressed his happiness on the Arjun tank becoming "a reality". "We have seen light at the end of the tunnel," Antony had said speaking of the project. 

The tank has been mired in controversy with the army last year having told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank. 

Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh hinted at the possibility of "sabotage" during the 2007 winter trials. 

*The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.* 

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. 

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001. 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## shchinese

24* said:


> lets face it....ARJUN IS A FLOP ...37 YEARS IN MAKING! Its time to move on



indeed. it is actually not that difficult to admit failures. for example, China failed in several major projects like J-9.

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you just need to learn how to move on and sit down to have a detailed analysis on why the project failed.


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## SuperX7

Guys friends and visitors,

I have seen the tank, ridden it and peeked inside...

the Arjun did used to have problems, but most are fixed now, the army had drawn a hardline on not taking it due to historical issues with the tank and they know that its better than what they talk about it, trust me you have to see it to believe it...

its armour is much better than most, can take a point blank hot from most of the anti tank ammo and still survive and hit back,

can fire while moving at speed and do that accurately

the ride is butter smooth for a tank

can ford deep waters well

gun is really a class and can fire much more than russians and still not burst

although its big, ground pressure is lower than russian tanks

electronics are state of the art, cooling is now acceptable and failure is low

aux power supply enables silent kill

gun can look down lower and still fire

the maintenence is high and cost is higher than T90 too, transportation is challenge, but its a tank killer and does that job without a hitch, it will eat up T90 for breakfast lunch dinner and still have some appetite for more, in a headon excercise t90 will not stand it, its a different class, it looks huge, compared to a T90

more will be inducted now, i think 250+ in total + service vehicles made from its chassis


**no one wants war ** Allah forbid any war in future


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## nitesh

Born-again Arjun raring for battlefield

Born-again Arjun raring for battlefield
Kartyk Venkatraman Posted: Mar 01, 2009 at 0521 hrs IST

Chandipur-on-sea(Orissa): *The much-derided tank has been fitted with new features and has come out with flying colours during trials*

At a firing point of the Defence Research & Development Organisation&#8217;s (DRDO) 114-year-old Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) &#8212; a strip of secluded beach in Chandipur &#8212; *the Nakul tank with the MBT Arjun&#8217;s turret and the Russian T-72&#8217;s chassis readies to fire its 120-mm cannon to test target-grouping and ammunition. Several thundering rounds later, DRDO scientists are back in the lab to analyse. The result: satisfactory.*

Envisioned as India&#8217;s first indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) in 1972 following the &#8216;71 Indo-Pak war, Arjun has been in the line of fire for under-performance from the Army over the past decade. Now, scientists at the proof-testing PXE in Chandipur and main developer Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, Tamil Nadu are upbeat about Arjun&#8217;s performance before it takes on the Russian T-90 in comparative trials this summer.

*Maj Gen Anup Malhotra, director, PXE, said much of the &#8220;teething troubles&#8221; of the Arjun have been overcome. &#8220;Over the past year, we have been testing the barrel, recoil and breech of the Arjun&#8217;s firing mechanism, as well as the ammunition. Between 60-70 barrels have been tested here. The tests are satisfactory, and we will be sending the results to the CVRDE, which is developing the tank. If the Army has objected in the past on certain aspects, they are correct in doing so. If they want to evaluate, it is a good sign. Better now than in battle,&#8221; Malhotra said.* 

*CVRDE associate director R Jayakumar said the only common feature between Nakul and the current version of the Arjun is the barrel. &#8220;The rest of the turret has been revamped, including the gun control and fire control. Also, as a proactive measure, we will incorporate 12 futuristic technology systems include automatic target tracking, defensive aids, laser warning, tank simulator systems and also automate target tracking,&#8221; Jayakumar told The Indian Express.*

*DRDO officials say the upcoming comparative trials would decide the operational role of the Arjun, such as &#8220;strike&#8221; and &#8220;shock-and-awe&#8221;.* The T-90 weighs less than 50 tonnes, while the Arjun weighs 58.5 tonnes and is comparable to the American M1A1 Abrams (67 tons), British Challenger (65), German Leopard (68) and Israeli Merkava (67). &#8220;We prefer to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges,&#8221; Jayakumar says.

Claiming to have overcome problems including engine trouble and overheating, the DRDO wants to bid for more orders for Arjun from the Army, and is expecting new requirements from the Army. *For comparative trials, tentatively scheduled in May, the CVRDE will be sending a full squadron (20) of tanks. *

*The Army had said after the 2007 winter trials that the Arjun had &#8220;failed&#8221; in several parameters. Following trials in 2008 summer, the Army&#8217;s evaluation of the Arjun has changed, says Jayakumar. &#8220;The tanks covered 8,000 km and over 800 rounds were fired during the latest trials without any hitches.&#8221;*

*&#8220;It is a misconception that the Arjun has overshot its budget. Till November 1985, only Rs 15 crore were allocated for competence-building and technology. Based on the results, the project was sanctioned that year and an additional Rs 305 crore were allocated. In March 2000, we got the go-ahead to begin production and delivered 15 prototypes for evaluation,&#8221; Jayakumar says.*

Malhotra adds initial order of 124 Arjuns should not be seen as a cap on acquisition. &#8220;The comparative trials would dictate the number of Arjun tanks acquired by the Army in the future.&#8221;

The Army continues to be guarded on the issue. &#8220;We&#8217;re neither categorically accepting or rejecting the Arjun MBT. Any comment will be made after the trials this summer,&#8221; said Group Captain R K Das, CPRO (MoD) Kolkata.


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## zombie:-)

lol arjun for shawkinaaw


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## LCA

What is this nakul tank ?

a version of arjun tank or some thing else.


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## nitesh

LCA said:


> What is this nakul tank ?
> 
> a version of arjun tank or some thing else.



from the news item:


> the Nakul tank with the MBT Arjuns turret and the Russian T-72s chassis readies to fire its 120-mm cannon to test target-grouping and ammunition. Several thundering rounds later, DRDO scientists are back in the lab to analyse. The result: satisfactory.


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## fatman17

i have not read the posts in this thread but it is very clear than Arjun does not have a future with the Indian Army (read IA thread) - that is why IA has opted to purchase 1,300 T-90S tanks with specified upgrades to keep this tank comparable to contemporary MBTs available world-wide. This has become a "image and integrity" issue with indian scientists of DRDO whereas the Indian Armoured Corps Officers are very clear in their message.
Move on India....


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## nitesh

fatman17 said:


> i have not read the posts in this thread but it is very clear than Arjun does not have a future with the Indian Army (read IA thread) - that is why IA has opted to purchase 1,300 T-90S tanks with specified upgrades to keep this tank comparable to contemporary MBTs available world-wide. This has become a "image and integrity" issue with indian scientists of DRDO whereas the Indian Armoured Corps Officers are very clear in their message.
> Move on India....



To an extent yes (regarding IA mechanized division officers saying) but they are not able to freeze the requirement for future tank from last 2 years . Also there are comparative trials about to happen which will decide about the final result.


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## fatman17

nitesh said:


> To an extent yes (regarding IA mechanized division officers saying) but they are not able to freeze the requirement for future tank from last 2 years . Also there are comparative trials about to happen which will decide about the final result.



pls dont mis-understand me, why flog a beaten horse!

i sometimes feel that the DRDO and to some extent the Indian Armed Forces want the "Perfect Weapons System" which just may not be possible, close enough would be just as good. there is a need to lower "benchmarks" to ensure that local conditions are met.


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## nitesh

fatman17 said:


> pls dont mis-understand me, why flog a beaten horse!
> 
> i sometimes feel that the DRDO and to some extent the Indian Armed Forces want the "Perfect Weapons System" which just may not be possible, close enough would be just as good. there is a need to lower "benchmarks" to ensure that local conditions are met.



Yes sir you correct, there was a seminar organized last year to understand future MBT requirement most of the representatives said it is like trying to shoot a moving target .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fatman17

a 60 ton arjun would require completely new tank transporters which will be a additional cost on the army budget (we know India has lots of $$$). and what about "puls" and bridges in India. will they be able to withstand a 60 ton tank. just as a side-bar the US abrams "failed" in the desert conditions of our thar desert in 1987 which is similar to the western rajasthan desert.!

my final word on this subject - India and Indians should know better about their requirements than someone posting from across the border!

Good Luck!


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## nitesh

Sir most of the issues have been sorted out. Sarvatra bridges are developed specifically for arjun. Railways are capable of carrying arjun very much. Arjun ground pressure is lesser then T90. So it should be good in desert conditions. First there were issue regarding electronics not working properly in desert heat but that also is demonstrated.

Well I don't think that people are not aware of the requirements. The things are moving on in right direction only.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## adm_havemercy

fatman17 said:


> pls dont mis-understand me, why flog a beaten horse!
> 
> i sometimes feel that the DRDO and to some extent the Indian Armed Forces want the "Perfect Weapons System" which just may not be possible, close enough would be just as good. there is a need to lower "benchmarks" to ensure that local conditions are met.



you are exactly right sir .
i dont understand the changing requirements of indian army and air force .
does that also happen in pakistan .


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## fatman17

adm_havemercy said:


> you are exactly right sir .
> i dont understand the changing requirements of indian army and air force .
> does that also happen in pakistan .



we dont have that resource luxury - this is not to say that all pak projects are successful - so we are very very careful.


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> Sir most of the issues have been sorted out. Sarvatra bridges are developed specifically for arjun. Railways are capable of carrying arjun very much. Arjun ground pressure is lesser then T90. So it should be good in desert conditions. First there were issue regarding electronics not working properly in desert heat but that also is demonstrated.
> 
> Well I don't think that people are not aware of the requirements. The things are moving on in right direction only.



what is the ground pressure of arjun and T-90?


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## nitesh

LCA said:


> what is the ground pressure of arjun and T-90?



Check these links:
Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

India Today - India&#039;s most widely read magazine.


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## Contrarian

The point about Arjun was that an entirely new logistics trail would have to be created, while the T-90's share the logistics print of the T-72. So inducting 2 types of MBT's both of which will only last for 10-15 years more is foolishness. The future is unmanned MBT's. Thats where everyone is headed. Starting and investing on Arjun would be unncessary as in 15 years time, we would again have a new tank.

Though the IA is more than aware that T-90 does not have the kind of protection that Arjun has.

Thus, they are going to fit Active Protection Systems on the T-90's. The tender will be issued soon.

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## indiatech

*MBT Arjun's new Defensive Aid System ready for tests.*


The DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, has taken up the development of a Defensive Aids System for armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs) to enhance the survivability of tanks against anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats and to reduce the probability of detection by target acquisition systems.

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions. MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform. ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.


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## ejaz007

*Defensive Aid Systems for Arjun MBT Ready: DRDO*
Dated 10/3/2009


The DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, has taken up the development of a Defensive Aids System for armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs). 

This is to enhance the survivability of tanks against anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats and to reduce the probability of detection by target acquisition systems.

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions.

MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform.

ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.

Defensive Aid Systems for Arjun MBT Ready: DRDO | India Defence


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## Screaming Skull

fatman17 said:


> i have not read the posts in this thread but it is very clear than Arjun does not have a future with the Indian Army (read IA thread) - that is why IA has opted to purchase 1,300 T-90S tanks with specified upgrades to keep this tank comparable to contemporary MBTs available world-wide. This has become a "image and integrity" issue with indian scientists of DRDO whereas the Indian Armoured Corps Officers are very clear in their message.
> Move on India....



The DRDO has been openly challenging IA for field trials of the Arjun vs T-90S since ages. Who do u think is the biggest gainer if Arjun does nt make it. It s Russia n its defence agencies. These guys have bribed the top guys of the IA n MOD responsible for MBT purchases. Else, how do u explain the purchase of T-90 even without field trials with comparable western MBTs let alone Arjun.

As far as the delays with Arjun n LCA are considered, one must understand that these systems are vastly superior to their initial design requirements. It s like starting with a T-72 n finally delivering a T-90 equivalent bypassing all the intermediate designs but keeping the project name same. Similarly, with LCA it s like starting off with a Mig-21 n finally delivering a Mig-29 equivalent (I just mean in terms of tech gap n not the comparability of LCA with Mig-29).

If one takes into account the time taken to develop a T-90 from base versions, I think DRDO has done much better than the Russians in developing the Arjun in 30 yrs with the funding allocated. Also, considering the fact that it was DRDO s first experience in developing MBT technology. Just wait for the field trials n u l see (T-90s could be another Bofors in the making. Dat s y everyone s hush hush bout it).

This is really not national pride that s doing the talking but there s lot more to defence purchases in India that meet the eye. There s so much vested interest frm all quarters that u really cant take things at face value. The media reporting these issues is not remotely qualified to speak abt these systems. They are accustomed to DRDO bashing on the basis of some Auditor general's official report that present plane facts. These are meant for guys who can actually make sense out of them n not the very simplistic media that compares the cost effectiveness of high tech sys like tomatoes n onions.

Please note one more thing, the fact that every one in the world knows about the status of these projects s bcoz of the high level of transparency in most defence projects. The public audit reports of most of DRDO projects are made public in India. Unfortunately, ppl dont realize that defence projects in China and even Pakistan are opaque. No one will know how much was spent on a Type-xyz of china or when an Al-Khalid was started (with no offence meant). These will just surface out of nowhere some day. None the wiser regarding the project duration or RnD cost etc.

Well these are just small pitfalls of democracy where one needs to atleast reveal to the tax payer how his money is being spent (whether he has any control over it is another ques!).


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## LCA

Welcome

*DRDO scientists build a bridge with brains*

Prasad Kulkarni | TNN

Pune: Its the first such project in the world, claim scientists of the Research and Development Establishment (Engineers), a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Pune. *The scientists are developing a lightweight, carbon fibre smart bridge, which will be strong enough to hold a fully loaded battle tank.
We have been working on the project for five years now and it has been successfully completed, *said Makarand Joshi, one of the scientists involved. The eight-member team includes scientists Giridhar Singh, Mayur Godbole, Rahul Harshe and technician Felix Barla, as well as other supporting staff.
*This is the only structure of its kind anywhere in the world, he proclaimed. The only other bridge that could be compared to this is the one in the US. That bridge is 13 meters long, but has been developed with the help of a private company, he said. The speciality of our bridge is that we have developed it entirely on our own. Our bridge is 5 metres long. We also plan to build a 24-metre bridge in the future.*
According to Joshi, part of the bridge is currently at the laboratory, while one part has been sent to the National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), Bangalore, for testing. After testing both parts, the bridge will be joined together in the Pune laboratory. Thereafter, the test of whether the bridge will withstand a fully loaded battle tank will be carried out. This is most likely to take place in July, said Joshi.
The bridge is made of carbon-epoxy materials and is 30% lighter than aluminium. The cost of building the bridge is almost the same as that of an aluminium bridge, but the expenses occurred on maintenance of the carbon composite material bridge will be lower, said Joshi. *The bridge weighs just 1.2 tonnes, but should be able to carry the load of a 70-tonne battle tank, he added.*
Explaining why it was called a smart bridge, scientist Mayur Godbole said, *This bridge can monitor itself. Fibre optic sensors have been embedded in the bridge to achieve this smartness. It can assess the weight/load on it and manage its durability accordingly. The bridge can also be operated by remote. There is no need to depute men at the bridge to monitor it.
*


*I think this will play a important role in the transportation of tanks like Arjun.*


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## heartwinlion

Indian Army to test Israeli defensive system suite on battle tank 

Report: Indian Army to test Israeli defensive system suite on battle tank_English_Xinhua

NEW DELHI, March 29 (Xinhua) -- The Indian Army will evaluate an advanced laser-based defensive suite designed by the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in collaboration with Israel, on the Arjun battle tank this summer, reported the local daily The Tribune on Sunday. 

Designated as the Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS), the suite comprises a laser warning system, infra-red jammer and an aerosol smoke grenade system. The sensors of these systems are mounted on the front sides of the turret, said the report. 

The purpose of ALWCS is to enhance survivability of armored vehicles against anti-tank guided missiles. Israel's Elbit Systems Limited which manufactures and integrates Israel's hi-tech defense electronic and electro-optic systems undertakes weapon upgrade projects for militaries throughout the world, and is DRDO's collaborating partner for ALWCS. 

The Arjun battle tank, which is under development for the past 36 years, is scheduled to undergo comprehensive trials with the Russian-origin T-90 tanks in May-June. Moreover, last year's trials were not reported to be successful. 

As part of Arjun's protection capability, DRDO's Adavi-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment has also developed a mobile camouflage system to provide multi-spectral signature management for reducing vehicle visual, thermal and radar signature against sensors and smart munitions.


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## fatman17

*Arjun MBT prepares for potentially decisive trials*

Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent - New Delhi

Key Points
India's Arjun main battle tank is to undergo comparative trials involving proven Russian MBTs

The MoD could increase its Arjun order depending on the outcome of the trials, *despite army opposition to procuring the long-delayed MBT * 

*The Indian Army is readying the locally designed Arjun main battle tank (MBT) for combat manoeuvres in the western Rajasthan desert, due to start in May, in what is widely being interpreted as a showdown between the military and the tank's designer, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), over the system's future. *

*The Arjun, which the DRDO has been developing for nearly 37 years* and which the army has consistently rejected because of performance issues, will also be put through comparative trials with the proven Russian T-72M1 and T-90S MBTs, which constitute the backbone of the country's armoured formations. 

*Two Arjun squadrons, or around 40-45 tanks, from the 43rd Armoured Regiment based at Suratgarh will conduct the trials, which are a prerequisite to the army formally clearing the Arjun for induction and determining its eventual operational role.* 

Depending on the outcome of the trials, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will decide whether to build more than the 124 Arjuns ordered in 2000. Official sources told Jane's that the size of the order could double to around 250 units, enough to equip four regiments, *thanks to the powerful DRDO lobby at the MoD.* 

*The Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, southern India, has so far built around 80-90 of the 124 Arjuns on order, none of which have yet been inducted into the army. *

*However, armoured corps officers told Jane's that, irrespective of the trials' outcome, the army was determined to "move beyond" the Arjun, which it considers operationally inadequate.* 

*Another argument cited against the Arjun is that 60 per cent of its components have to be imported.* These include its German MTU 838 Ka-510 diesel engine connected to a German-built RENK semi-automatic transmission system, its fire-control and gun-control systems and numerous other components and subassemblies, all of which have added an estimated INR16 million (USD3.2 million) to the MBT's unit cost. 

*A year ago, India's Armoured Corps Directorate set up a dedicated task force to develop a Future MBT: an exercise that will take several years to complete. *

Delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80UD MBT from Ukraine in the mid-1990s prompted India to order 310 T-90S MBTs in 2001 and another 347 six years later. India plans to produce another 1,000 T-90Ss under licence once contractual issues with Russia over the technology transfer are resolved. 

The army is also upgrading its T-72M1 fleet by equipping 950 of the tanks with full-solution thermal imaging fire-control systems and 750-800 with third-generation partial-solution thermal imaging standalone systems *to achieve a night fighting capability, which the army currently lacks. *


----------



## BATMAN

> The Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, southern India, has so far built around 80-90 of the 124 Arjuns on order, none of which have yet been inducted into the army.


This is interesting; 90 prototypes !!!
I think this is an indication that comming trials would be more of political thing for the over hyped hindu pride. ARJUN...


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## Hellfire

BATMAN said:


> This is interesting; 90 prototypes !!!
> I think this is an indication that comming trials would be more of political thing for the over hyped hindu pride. ARJUN...



actually no Batman

The vehicle is indeed proving to be better than what it was in 2006. and there are more and more improvements being done. so the system may just be deployed now.

IA was resisting on mainly the problem of establishment of a whole new logistical base and support area, something which would have entailed massive expenditure. The GoI and MoD are willing to give additional funds for the same as the IA apprehension was on effect of diversion of funds would be on procurement policy of IA and subsequent delays of the same due to lack of adequate funds.


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## Arsalan

here is another article to help the members:

A last bid to save the Arjun main battle tank project
January 14th, 2009 - 3:29 pm ICT by IANS - 
New Delhi, Jan 14 (IANS) The Indian Army will conduct head-to-head &#8220;comparative trials&#8221; of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT), under development for over three decades, and the Russian-built T-90 tanks in June. This is seen as a last desperate bid to save the Arjun project that has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The Indian Army had hitherto been ambiguous on the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) demand that the Arjun tank, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for nearly 36 years, be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 tanks that the army currently operates.

&#8220;Any comparison or comments on the performance or reliability (between Arjun and T-90 tanks) can be made only after the Arjun undergoes comparative trials, which we intend to conduct in June this summer,&#8221; a senior army official told IANS.

The army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

The DRDO demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible.

Drawing a comparison between the two tanks, DRDO says Arjun has a greater power-to-weight ratio, a hydro-pneumatic suspension system for a more comfortable ride, a stable platform to fire on the move and a superior fire control system.

&#8220;The Arjun costs Rs.168 million while the T-90 costs around Rs.120 million. But, then, the Arjun compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs of its class that cost in the range of Rs.170 to 240 million,&#8221; a DRDO official said.

However, experts see the Arjun tank as complete disaster.

&#8220;The Arjun tank is cumbersome for strategic movement, i.e. to be taken from one sector to another. It is too wide and too heavy to be moved in the railway carriages that we have in India. The comparative trials are just an eyewash as Arjun is incomparable to T-90,&#8221; said strategic analyst, retired Lt. Col. Anil Bhat. 

The army had last year told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

It listed various defects, including a deficient engine and fire control system, inaccurate guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank&#8217;s inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan&#8217;s decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

A last bid to save the Arjun main battle tank project

this same article can be found on
http://blog.taragana.com/n/a-last-bid-to-save-the-arjun-main-battle-tank-project-3487/


----------



## Arsalan

also hav a look at wikipedia:

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

though said to be a bit un reliabe, but this article about the arjun says it all.

if you people need to have more of it, you may tell me and i can give you more links about the actual story of arjun!!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

another one i would love to add

India's defence minister backs Arjun tank project, PROGRAMME UPDATE


Indian Defence Minister A K Antony rejected claims on 6 May that the serial production of India's indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) project should be scrapped. 


Last month a parliamentary committee found that the tank, which has been under development for more than 30 years, had performed poorly in recent trials and had experienced a number of engine failures. 

janes mag
India's defence minister backs Arjun tank project - Jane's Defence Industry


----------



## Arsalan

about the T 90 with indian:

Indian T-90 Tanks Struggle in Summer Desert Heat
By vivek raghuvanshi 
Published: 16 Jul 11:04 EDT (15:04 GMT) 

NEW DELHI - The Indian Army has floated a request for information to integrate an air-conditioning system along with additional power sources in its fleet of Russian-made T-90 tanks, which have had difficulties when operating in desert conditions of temperatures above 45 degrees Celsius

An Indian Army official said that some of the tanks' computerized systems failed in summer desert heat.

India purchased the T-90 tank from Russia in 2001 as the homegrown Arjun tank did not meet Army expectations while Pakistan had acquired T-80 tanks from Ukraine.

Under the $795 million deal, 310 T-90 tanks were procured from Russia. In 2007, the Indian Army gave a fresh order to buy an additional 330 T-90s and there are plans to license produce another 1,000 by 2020 at Indian facilities.


----------



## Arsalan

*India, Russia plan to build futuristic MBT *

note that they already have the arjun and the T90 and they are comming to develop something to take an edge on PA tanks!

&#8220;Will consolidate edge over Pakistan&#8217;s T-80 MBT&#8221;
It will feature higher speed and better firepower


MOSCOW: Encouraged by the remarkable success of their pilot co-development defence project, the Brahmos missile, India and Russia are planning to design and build a futuristic main battle tank.
Defence industry experts will discuss the new project when a delegation of the Russian Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) tank-building factory visits India this week to participate in an international seminar on the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) organised by the Army along with the Confederation of Indian Industry. 
The two sides have already had preliminary discussions on the issue, according to UVZ Director General Nikolai Malykh. 
&#8220;We put forward this idea [of a joint tank project] at the turn of the 21st century,&#8221; he told journalists in Moscow. &#8220;The Indian side has now come up with a similar proposal. We will take the first step when our experts go to India to attend a conference on the future tank and prospects for the tank-building industry.&#8221;

*&#8220;The new tank will consolidate India&#8217;s edge over the Pakistani Army armed with Ukraine&#8217;s potent T-80 MBT and the Al-Khalid MBT built jointly with China and Ukraine,&#8221; Ruslan Pukhov, Director, Centre for Analysis and Technologies, said. 
&#8220;Russia&#8217;s Uralvagonzavod would be the best partner for India in designing and building the new tank given a long history of its cooperation with the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi in the production of T-72 and T-90S MBTs.&#8221;
India has purchased over 1,600 T-90S MBTs built by the UVZ of which 1,000 will be manufactured at the Avadi plant*.
The Indo-Russian MBT is likely to incorporate the best features of prototype tanks developed at Russia&#8217;s leading tank-building plants &#8212; UVZ and Omsk Transport Machine-Building Plant &#8212; which are now being merged into a single corporation. 
According to the Moscow Defence Brief magazine, the new tank will mark a great step forward in armour technology. It will feature higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a low silhouette. An armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader. 
The crew will be provided with a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and will enjoy a smoother ride thanks to a new hydro-pneumatic suspension. 
The new tank is likely to have a new main gun of up to 152 mm calibre and a new hunter-killer fire control system with target acquisition in optical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrums that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander, the Moscow Defence Brief said.


----------



## Gabbar

*Comparative trials between Arjun, Russian T-90 delayed *

New Delhi (PTI): The comparative summer trials between the Arjun and Russian T-90 tanks will now be held during Monsoon after the Army insisted on holding comparison of regimental level performance of the two tanks. 

"The earlier plan was to hold trials using a small number of tanks of both types during summers around May or June. But with the Army now insisting on fielding a regiment (40 tanks) of both the tanks against each other, it will take another three months before the trials begin," Defence Ministry sources told PTI here. 

DRDO is expected to deliver around 16 tanks to the Army during a ceremony in Avadi in Tamil Nadu, where the tanks are built. 

"After the induction of the tank, it will take the Army another six weeks to train its men to operate the Arjun.So, we can hope for the trials to begin only in August," they said. 

The postponement of the summer trials will cause delays in determining the future of the Arjuns in the Army, which has till now ordered only 124 of these indigenously developed tanks. 

In 2007, 16 Arjuns were handed over to the Armoured Corps by DRDO but they were sent back to the Central Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi with a list of defects in the tank by the Army. 

Later on, there were allegations of Arjun's engines being sabotaged during winter trials of the tank by the Army. 

DRDO has been seeking Government's intervention to get orders for around 500 Arjuns for the Army so that it can stabilise its production line and develop a futuristic MBT based on the indigenously developed Arjun. 

On the other hand, the Indian Army has plans of replacing its older T-55 and T-72 tanks by 124 Arjuns and around 1650 T-90s. 

Arjun project was sanctioned 35 years ago with a sanction of Rs 15 crore but it has now gone above Rs 300 crore. 

Army had laid down its requirements for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials but the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995. 

Due to the delays, the Army signed a contract for 310 T-90 tanks with Russia and followed it up with orders for another 347 in 2008. Over 1,000 T-90s are tanks are being license-produced by CVRDE in India.


----------



## Gabbar

*Thrust on scaling up indigenous content of military arsenal *

ROLLING OUT: MBT Arjun tanks for the Army at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, on Monday.


CHENNAI: The Defence department&#8217;s thrust on scaling up indigenous content of its military arsenal will lessen the country&#8217;s dependence on import of critical components in the next few years, A.Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller Research and Development, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said on Monday.

Interacting with reporters after flagging off the final complement of 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks to the Army&#8217;s 43rd regiment at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Dr.Pillai said the Army, Navy and Air Force had already ushered in a great degree of indigenisation in weaponry.

&#8220;The DRDO is looking to raise the ratio of indigenous content in military equipment from the current level of 30 per cent to about 70 per cent in the next seven years or so,&#8221; Dr.Pillai told The&#8194;Hindu.

Already, the DRDO had led the indigenisation drive under the Component Design Execution (CODE) programme across various weaponry systems such as vessels for the Navy, light and medium combat aircraft for the Air Force, missiles, sensors and state-of-the-art radars.

Capacity exists 


Dr.Pillai said the roughly 200 public and private production units engaged in manufacture of defence equipment had the scalable capacity to meet the requirements as and when Army indent volumes increased in future. 

He pointed out that even for the fully indigenous MBT Arjun mission, the DRDO had collaborated with a host of agencies led by the Combat Vehicles Engineering Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE).

Dr.Pillai underlined the fact that self reliance in design and development of military weaponry through synergy among various agencies was a shared goal of the entire nation. &#8220;However, complete self reliance is impossible for any country to achieve.&#8221; 

The HVF at Avadi, which was tasked with manufacturing 124 MBT Arjun units for the Army, has so far handed over 45 tanks. &#8220;The fine-tuning of the tanks will continue and the remaining units are scheduled to be ready for commissioning in early 2010,&#8221; Dr.Pillai said.

D.Bhardwaj, Director General Mechanised Forces, said the jointeffort and the will to succeed against odds displayed by various agencies in putting out MBT Arjun proved to the world that India was a force to reckon with when it came to weapon design capabilities.

The Army, which was proud to possess the tank, was confident that MBT Arjun would rank among the best tanks in the world, he said.

Awesome features 


*CVRDE Director S.Sundaresh said MBT Arjun&#8217;s core strengths of excellent mobility, superior firepower and protection features made it comparable with the best armoured machines in the world. **The design engineering feats achieved by the MBT Arjun team at Avadi includes developing the Kanchan Armour, hydro-pneumatic suspension, armament system, integrated fire detection and suppression system and system integration of complex weapon platforms.*

Earlier, the fanfare that marked the rollout of the tanks befitted the over three-decades-old Arjun saga that has been characterised by design hiccups, technology denial and re-engineering and retrofitment of the tank&#8217;s medium fording capabilities.

*As an MBT Arjun tank decked with garlands, ribbon strips and balloons led out a formidable-looking line-up of tanks, the collective roar of the 1,400 HP engines almost drowned the cries of &#8220;Bharath Mata ki Jai.&#8221;*


----------



## Screaming Skull

*Indian Army gets its first MBT Arjun regiment​*



















*DRDO/Army Statement:*

History of sorts was made today as the Indian Army proudly equipped itself with the first Armoured Regiment of indigenously built Main Battle Tank, Arjun. The development marks the fruition of 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds.

*16 tanks (Cumulative 45 Arjun tanks) were handed over to Lt.Gen.D.Bhardwaj, DGMF, towards formation of the 1st Arjun regiment by Shri S.Chandrasekar, Addl. DGOF (AV) and flagged-off by Dr.A.Sivathanu PIllai, Chief Controller, Research & Development & Distinguished Scientist, DRDO at a function in Avadi today.*

MBT Arjun is the state-of-art main battle tank designed and developed by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment(CVRDE), Avadi along with other DRDO and industrial partners. MBT Arjun is provided with excellent mobility, superior fire power and protection and the features are quite comparable to contemporary world tanks. The Kanchan Armour, Hydro-pneumatic suspension, Armament system, Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System, system engineering and system integration of complex weapon platforms are some of the significant indigenous technologies of Arjun, developed by DRDO labs.

Initially 12 prototypes were developed during 1983 to 1990 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 20,000 kms and 1100 rounds. Based on user feedback 15 pre-production vehicles were developed during 1990 to 1995 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 70,000 kms and 8000 rounds. After the satisfactory trials, army placed an indent initially for 15 limited series production in Nov 1997 and cumulatively 124 in Mar 2000. The development of Arjun was carried out in a number of stages and evaluation through extensive field trials. After satisfactory performance, Army placed an indent for the full compliment of 124 nos. of MBT Arjun in Mar 2000.

As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to re-establishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denial in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items, delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However, the first pilot batch of production tanks was handed over to Army on 7th August 2004 in the presence of the then Defence Minister Shri. Pranab Mukherjee.

During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A.K.Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

*Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH  Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.
*
*The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction.* Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009. *As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.*

The regiment of 45 tanks will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of 3 months. Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.


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## indiatech




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## ironman

*DRDO working on additional capabilities for Arjun battle tank.*

New Delhi (PTI) With the Arjun Main Battle Tank slated to be compared with Russian T-90 tanks in trials after August, the DRDO is working on development of host of armoured defence systems to provide additional capabilities for the indigenously developed battle tank.

*"DRDO is developing a laser warning control system (LWCS) and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) to be equipped on the Arjun, which is to expected to be fielded for regimental level trials with T-90s during monsoon,"* Defence Ministry officials told PTI.

The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems.

"This will help us reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability," they said.

DRDO is co-developing the technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Baracudda Camouflaging Limited.

The other system LWCS is beind developed in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel.

"The Laser Warning Suite of the tank will be based on an Israeli system, used by their Army on its tanks," officials said.


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## indiatech

ironman said:


> *DRDO working on additional capabilities for Arjun battle tank.*
> 
> New Delhi (PTI) With the Arjun Main Battle Tank slated to be compared with Russian T-90 tanks in trials after August, the DRDO is working on development of host of armoured defence systems to provide additional capabilities for the indigenously developed battle tank.
> 
> *"DRDO is developing a laser warning control system (LWCS) and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) to be equipped on the Arjun, which is to expected to be fielded for regimental level trials with T-90s during monsoon,"* Defence Ministry officials told PTI.
> 
> The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems.
> 
> "This will help us reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability," they said.
> 
> DRDO is co-developing the technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Baracudda Camouflaging Limited.
> 
> The other system LWCS is beind developed in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel.
> 
> "The Laser Warning Suite of the tank will be based on an Israeli system, used by their Army on its tanks," officials said.




This is a right move. SAAB seems to be a leader in MCS


Barracuda Mobile Camouflage System, MCS, is an individually designed camouflage kit for vehicles by SAAB Barracuda.

Complete sensor protection

This sophisticated concept for object adapted Signature Management provides:
 Full protection against homing missiles 
 Prevents lock-on by smart munition
 Reduction of detection range.

Heat Transfer Reduction

This system is designed to reduce the heat penetration through the hull into vehicles operating in extremely hot climates like desert and tropical regions, to protect personnel and sensitive equipment. All MCS can be supplemented with an HTR System.


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## gubbi

Indian Army Gets its First Armored Regiment Equipped with Arjun Main Battle Tanks


So finally here it is....lets hope to see more advanced technologies incorporated into this behemoth.


Released on Monday, May 25, 2009

Army gets its first armoured regiment of MBT Arjun

History of sorts was made today as the Indian Army proudly equipped itself with the first Armoured Regiment of indigenously built Main Battle Tank, Arjun. The development marks the fruition of 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds.

16 tanks (Cumulative 45 Arjun tanks) were handed over to Lt.Gen.D.Bhardwaj, DGMF, towards formation of the 1st Arjun regiment by Shri S.Chandrasekar, Addl. DGOF (AV) and flagged-off by Dr.A.Sivathanu PIllai, Chief Controller, Research & Development & Distinguished Scientist, DRDO at a function in Avadi today. MBT Arjun is the state-of-art main battle tank designed and developed by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment(CVRDE), Avadi along with other DRDO and industrial partners. MBT Arjun is provided with excellent mobility, superior fire power and protection and the features are quite comparable to contemporary world tanks. The Kanchan Armour, Hydro-pneumatic suspension, Armament system, Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System, system engineering and system integration of complex weapon platforms are some of the significant indigenous technologies of Arjun, developed by DRDO labs. Initially 12 prototypes were developed during 1983 to 1990 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 20,000 kms and 1100 rounds. Based on user feedback 15 pre-production vehicles were developed during 1990 to 1995 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 70,000 kms and 8000 rounds. After the satisfactory trials, army placed an indent initially for 15 limited series production in Nov 1997 and cumulatively 124 in Mar 2000. The development of Arjun was carried out in a number of stages and evaluation through extensive field trials. After satisfactory performance, Army placed an indent for the full compliment of 124 nos. of MBT Arjun in Mar 2000.

As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to re-establishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denial in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items, delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However, the first pilot batch of production tanks was handed over to Army on 7th August 2004 in the presence of the then Defence Minister Shri. Pranab Mukherjee. During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A.K.Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH &#65533; Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.

The regiment of 45 tanks will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of 3 months. Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.


AUCRT - Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials
CVRDE - Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment
DRDO - Defense, Research and Development Organization
HVF - Heavy Vehicles Factory
MBT - Main Battle Tank
OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer
R&D - Research and Development


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## Keysersoze

Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.

Ok now this part drew my attention....More trials? You are joking right?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## gubbi

Keysersoze said:


> Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to *assess the operational deployment role *of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.
> 
> Ok now this part drew my attention....More trials? You are joking right?



Not more trials. They are going to compare both tanks to see what kind of specific roles they would be delegated in the battle field.



Machoman said:


> hmm, let it be I think you forgot that Pakistan Al-Khaid Tank still rank one of the best tank in the world anyways.



Lol, its got nothing to do 'your' tanks. Heres a little part that you need to re-read. Its not a d**k measuring contest here. Just to let all those naysayers know that yes, Arjun MBT - the so called failure - has been assessed by a renowned tank manufacturer and has been inducted.


> "As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to *rigorous trials and assessment by a **third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer)*. After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun."


----------



## insas91

Keysersoze said:


> Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.
> 
> Ok now this part drew my attention....More trials? You are joking right?



THis is routine. A'first' domestic technology cannot be fully trusted. Hence having a strong foothold like 'Arjun' in land warfare, 'tejas' in airwarfare. Is important. And hence takes time. Once the technology is reliable, we can go on with more ambitious prjects much faster, just like we did it with out missiles. One 'prithvi' was needed to give rise to India's massive missile gallery.


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## Cockpuncher

thank god. i thought arjun was scrapped


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## Keysersoze

insas91 said:


> THis is routine. A'first' domestic technology cannot be fully trusted. Hence having a strong foothold like 'Arjun' in land warfare, 'tejas' in airwarfare. Is important. And hence takes time. Once the technology is reliable, we can go on with more ambitious prjects much faster, just like we did it with out missiles. One 'prithvi' was needed to give rise to India's massive missile gallery.



Yes yes we have heard this nonsense for a few years now.....


----------



## Keysersoze

As for the the other memeber who is claiming it is NOT a trial then why is it called a trial? and why are they comparing it to a T-90? You can't use the excuse that they are looking for "specific roles" because they have been looking at this tank for a few years now and they should know what it does.


----------



## Screaming Skull

Keysersoze said:


> As for the the other memeber who is claiming it is NOT a trial then why is it called a trial? and why are they comparing it to a T-90? You can't use the excuse that they are looking for "specific roles" because they have been looking at this tank for a few years now and they should know what it does.



Hi Keysersoze

This is a comparative trial with the T-90s. It is going to be a full scale simulated battle in real battlefield conditions where a regiment of about 40 tanks of each type will take on each other. Earlier the plan was to hold trials using a small number of tanks of both types during summers around May or June. But with the Army now insisting on fielding a regiment (40 tanks) of both the tanks against each other, it will take another three months before the trials begin because the men have to start training with the Arjuns. They are most likely to be held during the monsoons. 

These trials are expected to put an end to all the speculations about the Arjun's capabilities vis-a-vis the IA's pet T-90 with a direct showdown between the two. If the Arjuns do perform well in this showdown then expect an enhanced order of at least 500 Arjuns from the IA.

Take a look at the Arjun sticky thread for more info.


----------



## SQ8

I feel the Arjun has taken up too much resources and money of the Indians and not produced anything concrete yet. And at this stage after so many years it would seem prudent to Invest in the Black eagle tank which the Russians are developing. and call the Arjun a testbed for new tech. 
However only this test will tell and hopefully it should be a fair one and not plagued by departmental favoritism.


----------



## Screaming Skull

santro said:


> I feel the Arjun has taken up too much resources and money of the Indians and not produced anything concrete yet. And at this stage after so many years it would seem prudent to Invest in the Black eagle tank which the Russians are developing. and call the Arjun a testbed for new tech.
> However only this test will tell and hopefully it should be a fair one and not plagued by departmental favoritism.



I assure you, if at all there is any favoritism, it will be from the Army for T-90. Otherwise how do you justify such a short time period of just three months given to train some IA men on a completely new platform like the Arjun and fielding them against the more matured T-90S in a full scale battle. Add to that, the Army has been operating the Russian T-series for several decades and has well formulated battle strategies based on their strength and weaknesses. 

All this to just assess the capabilities of a homemade tank! Did the Army ever do any comparative trials for the T-90S before ordering them when several other better, battle proven tanks were available in the open market? They didn't even issue any RFI's from the other tank manufacturers as in the case with the MMRCA contest. No technical evaluation nothing. But a home made tank has to go through the most rigorous trials before any order is placed.

Need I say more?


----------



## maverick2009

Santro The one thing about Indian Media and its military they are very open about Failures. 

Just look at Tejas a replacement for MIG21 a second generation flying coffin. 

Tejas is 2 generations a head with composites, data linking, glass cockpitt and israeli Elta radar. 

Any fool can see its 20 years ahead of the UPGRADED MIG21 bison. YET the IAF STIL INSIST on Block 2 LCA after the first 28 enter service by 2012. 

Arjun was the same. The indian tank is far more powerful in terms of Armour ,, crew comfort, and computerised fire control. But the Indian Army was critical VERY CRITICAL of its short coming. 

Its now got over these issues and I think eventualy 10 REGIMENTS of the Armoured forces will have Arjun. 

Re the Trials. This is to assess how to operate a heavey western type tank along side large nos of meduim sizsed Russian T90 IE its all about OPERATIONAL DOCTRINES.


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## ANDUBYLL

I think all this old school now. 
A K Antony and the UPA are more in favour of indegenous products . Hence this fast take on the Arjun.


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## brahmastra

Atlast, the warrior enrolled.


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## indiatech

Arjun is getting MCS from SAAB soon. Wait and see it getting stealthy in the deserts.


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## SQ8

Hmm.. True.. The Indian media are quite.. over eager so to say.. saw a clip on youtube recently of bolly celebs handing it to media employees because of their provocative comments about the celeb.

Coming to the point about the T-90..There is the saying "Ghar ki murghi daal barabar", Our countrymen share the common need to have Gucci on their glasses even when a local one might do the same job just as well or better. I guess there is always some chance of kickbacks.. considering there are past records of such. But unfortunately its usually the ones who aren't involved in case the product is faulty.
case in point.. the Pakistani License on the MP-5.. 
the gun is a close quarter combat gun meant for special services. Its has pathetic performance in the field. 800 meters and its bullet is on ground. dead.
Yet somebody decided that their needs outweigh the needs of the many and so the MP-5 was mass produced for the army. Even now soldier prefer the AK and do not like the weapon.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Keysersoze

Dude the most common contact is 300 metres. Navy seals used it (mp5) during GW1. So your assertion is incorrect.


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## blain2

santro said:


> Hmm.. True.. The Indian media are quite.. over eager so to say.. saw a clip on youtube recently of bolly celebs handing it to media employees because of their provocative comments about the celeb.
> 
> Coming to the point about the T-90..There is the saying "Ghar ki murghi daal barabar", Our countrymen share the common need to have Gucci on their glasses even when a local one might do the same job just as well or better. I guess there is always some chance of kickbacks.. considering there are past records of such. But unfortunately its usually the ones who aren't involved in case the product is faulty.
> case in point.. the Pakistani License on the MP-5..
> the gun is a close quarter combat gun meant for special services. Its has pathetic performance in the field. 800 meters and its bullet is on ground. dead.
> Yet somebody decided that their needs outweigh the needs of the many and so the MP-5 was mass produced for the army. Even now soldier prefer the AK and do not like the weapon.



MP-5 was never meant for engagements at 800 meters or so. Most of the infantrymen are trained to be proficient with their individual weapons (G-3, Type-56, M-4 and AUG in Pakistan's case) at ranges of 300-400 meters. MP-5 is a SMG that replaced the older sten guns that were in use with the PA section/platoon/com leaders. So the MP-5 was never intended as a replacement for an assault rifle, rather as a light weapon for officers/JCO/NCOs.


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## Contrarian

Keysersoze said:


> As for the the other memeber who is claiming it is NOT a trial then why is it called a trial? and why are they comparing it to a T-90? You can't use the excuse that they are looking for "specific roles" because they have been looking at this tank for a few years now and they should know what it does.



Its a damn trial no matter who says otherwise. The IA doesnt wan it despite it being more capable than the T-90S. They have delayed the comparative trials deliberately. 

In anycase, lets hope the comparative trials happen sooner than later, so that things are out in the open.


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> Its a damn trial no matter who says otherwise. The IA doesnt wan it despite it being more capable than the T-90S. They have delayed the comparative trials deliberately.
> 
> In anycase, lets hope the comparative trials happen sooner than later, so that things are out in the open.



Finally a non jingoistic response...

Ii am kinda curious as to why the IA does not want it. (A warning if anyone makes a stupid reply to the question it will result in warning/bannings)


----------



## King Julien

Keysersoze said:


> Finally a non jingoistic response...
> 
> Ii am kinda curious as to why the IA does not want it. (A warning if anyone makes a stupid reply to the question it will result in warning/bannings)



because...... it couldn't get mach 2 and also couldn't attain an cobra maneuver.... lol i just pissed a mod

there's something fishy about t-90 in fact.... they've been consistently causing delays... they smartly countered the summers for t-90
or 
they just want to cancel arjun... after all they'll be sending arjun teams that have an experience of 5-6months with arjun against the mighty veterans

the best part will be press release of trials..... bhishma was cool but arjun was happening


----------



## Keysersoze

King Julien said:


> because...... it couldn't get mach 2 and also couldn't attain an cobra maneuver.... lol i just pissed a mod
> 
> there's something fishy about t-90 in fact.... they've been consistently causing delays... they smartly countered the summers for t-90
> or
> they just want to cancel arjun... after all they'll be sending arjun teams that have an experience of 5-6months with arjun against the mighty veterans
> 
> the best part will be press release of trials..... bhishma was cool but arjun was happening



Dude can you be a little more concise? As I don' know what you are trying to say here.


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## King Julien

Hmm....
to start with IA has been regularly changing goals for DRDO....
then the trials were slated for summers in may; but the army said they need to field a regiment of both the tanks against each other, this further delayed the trials to October... (just in case you dont know.... the t-90s have heating problems.... so...)
i'd get you more over this issue tomorrow..... running short of time...
just make sure jingoistic guys stay out of this..... they may bash IA somewhere else...


----------



## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> Its a damn trial no matter who says otherwise. The IA doesnt wan it despite it being more capable than the T-90S. They have delayed the comparative trials deliberately.
> 
> In anycase, lets hope the comparative trials happen sooner than later, so that things are out in the open.



Malay the article stated OCT/NOV as the date, which in south Asian time means 2010


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## luckyy

after Arjun MBT , now it's turn of Tejas-LCA...


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## Keysersoze

Er mate the saga is not yet over....Why there are going to be even MORE trials remains to be seen.


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## Hellfire

Keysersoze said:


> Er mate the saga is not yet over....Why there are going to be even MORE trials remains to be seen.



definitely, but atleast IA accepted the product, now improvement can be done on existing structure ..... Hopefully though!!!!!!


----------



## paritosh

that says alot....i for one appreciate the IA's taste and their uncompromising attitude for excellence...only the best of the best.


----------



## heartwinlion

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

DRDO to deliver 79 tanks to Army

Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi near Chennai will deliver 79 Arjun main battle tank (MBT), which was built indigenously by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), by March 2010. Each tank was built for Rs 19 crore. 

After flagging off 16 MBT Arjun tanks from CVRDE, Avadi which was handed over to the Army, A Sivathanu Pillai, scientist and chief controller, research and development, DRDO, ministry of defence said total order placed by the army was 124 tanks. Of this 45 have been delivered. Remaining will be delivered by March 2010.

S Chandrasekar, additional DGOF (AV) said development started in March 1974. It took over three decades to develop the project. Delay is mainly due to several unexpected hindrances on account of foreign sanctions on India following its nuclear tests. Each tank was costing around Rs 19 crore.

The army placed the final order after tanks went through serious of test by Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials in five phases on two tanks covering more than 8,000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank, he added.

The tanks will have 1400 HP engine, which was bought from Germany, and can travel at a speed of 70kms an hour and capable of firing upto 3-4 kms both in day and night times, K Sridhar, DRDO scientist and spokesperson CVRD. He added, import component, including engine, is 25-30 per cent.

Meanwhile Pillai said the defence forces plan to reduce their foreign dependency for developing their military equipments. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had set a target to gradually increase the indigenous content in defence equipments to 70 per cent from the current 30 per cent. According to studies good and services worth around $10 billion likely to be sourced within India for various defence requirements.

He added: &#8220;earlier our (India's defence equipment) requirements were dominated by foreign inflows which has started changing now. The country in the last few years has built its own capabilities.&#8221;

Pillai, said vessels for Indian Navy, combat aircrafts for the Indian Air Force, missiles, sensors, radars, weapon locator's, tanks, sonas and other electronic systems are now getting designed and developed within the country.

The major problem is procuring components for our deliverables, said Pillai. To address the issue a programme CODE (Components for Deliverables) was launched to increase the localisation.


----------



## luckyy

DRDO has vertually chalanging T-90 in a comparitive trials.
IA always has the taste to choose the best.
they has given Arjun MBT their confidence , says it all.


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## maverick2009

Another 79 Arjun will join the Indian Army by March 2010 thats like 9 months away. To Form 3 Regiments. 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10858

Nice to see India buying its own hardware


----------



## Infanteer

Keysersoze said:


> Dude the most common contact is 300 metres. Navy seals used it (mp5) during GW1. So your assertion is incorrect.



MP5's maximum range is 150 meters. i don't know where you got 300 meters ?
Its an accurate weapon within its range..


----------



## indiatech

CVRDE, Avadi gets State of the Art Engine Test Facility 

Thursday, 04 June 2009 

Chennai : The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establisihment (CVRDE), Avadi now has a newly created State of the Art Engine Test Facility. This Engine Test Facility has two test cells capable of testing the engines up to 1500 KW and 800 KW power respectively.

Dr. A. Sivathanupillai, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Controller (R&D) NS & ACE, DRDO Hqrs, New Delhi inaugurated the Engine Test Facility at CVRDE, Avadi. Shri S Sundaresh Outstanding Scientist, Director CVRDE Avadi was also present. 
Dr. A. Sivathanupillai, Chief Controller (R&D) also recalled the other programmes of CVRDE for developing Battle Management System and creation of a Simulation facility for Main Battle Tank. He called upon one and all to continue their sustained hard work for their success.

Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establisihment (CVRDE) located at Avadi is an important Establishment under DRDO. It is dedicated towards design and development of Armoured Fighting Vehicles for the Indian Army.


----------



## Screaming Skull

*Arjun for Exports?​*
Thursday, Jun 04, 2009

The recent ceremony in Avadi, near Chennai, when 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks were rolled out by its manufacturer, Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) &#8212; a part-supply for the 43rd regiment based in Rajasthan &#8212; brought cheers to those involved in the effort, both serving and retired alike.

Whether the cheers will last is a moot point as the Director-General Mechanised Forces (DGMF), who was present at the function, was silent about further orders for these tanks. HVF will complete the present and the only order so far by 2010 placed in the beginning of the decade. For long, it appeared that the Army firmly believed that having an indigenous tank in its stable was an idea whose time would never come. This will be evident if the course of history of even the past ten years, let alone the previous two decades, is traced.
Meeting standards

In 2004 the first pilot batch of tanks was handed over in the presence of the then Defence Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee. The Army, however, insisted, before production could proceed, on incorporating stringent specifications for fording capabilities &#8212; the tanks being under water at 2.1 meters depth with only 30 minutes preparation time.

This too was successfully demonstrated in the presence of Mr A. K. Antony, Defence Minister, in 2007 as well, by the cooperative efforts of HVF and the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation). Not easily satisfied, the Army now felt it was necessary to carry out (ACURT) Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials of a few tanks; in layman&#8217;s parlance, &#8216;Driving to death&#8217; that includes running them for 8,000 km and firing 800 rounds of ammunition.

Ostensibly this was to work out the requirement of life-time spares although the same could have been done using advanced statistical methods, along with vendor inputs, extrapolating the vast experience of the Army in handling tanks of different vintages and designs since the Second World War. AURCT was also completed in August 2008 and modifications, as required by the experience gained, were successfully incorporated, and the first batch of tanks for this regiment was handed over in March 2009.

To reinforce the morale of HVF and the DRDO, a third-party audit by an independent international tank manufacturer certified that the Arjun was an excellent warhorse, particularly for deserts. Tanks are durable products involving decades of effort and years of manufacture. They are expected to survive not only enemy shelling but also stay with the Army for at least half a century.

Therefore, to acquire true value experience by the Mechanised Forces, tanks of a class and specification should be deployed in sufficient strength so that almost every jawan, non-commissioned officer (NCO) and officer in the armoured corps is imparted has repeated bouts of training and a stint of at least three years in a regiment of Arjun tanks.

This is possible only if the population of Arjun tanks in the Army is over 500 and that too built up within three years. However, the Army continues to have its eyes fixed on purchasing more and more of T-90 tanks from Russia during the same period.
Stalling the exercise

Miffed at the continued reluctance of the Army and armed with the credentials certified by independent audit, the DRDO is challenging the former to conduct comparative trials of T-90 and Arjun. The Army stalled such an exercise by first wanting at least 45 tanks in the regiment and then postponing the trials to October.

The Army is also inserting tactical elements in the test directives, such as, capturing a target which will take the focus away from equitable comparison of equipment capability. *However, happily for HVF and the DRDO, it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country.*
Who knows? Fortune may favour Arjun and it may be seen in service in larger numbers abroad than in the country of its origin.

*(The author is a former member, Ordnance Factory Board.)*

The Hindu Business Line : Will the Arjun tank keep rolling?


----------



## Contrarian

Keysersoze said:


> Ii am kinda curious as to why the IA does not want it.



Cannot say. Could be multitude of reasons. They are rather keen on the FMBT with Russia. That could be a major reason. They want it by 2020. So that give roughly 10 years more for current generation of tanks. Probably they dont want to introduce a new tank just right now, if they already plan on replacing it in 10 years. It might be entrenched Russian lobby.

There is another aspect of logistics. A new train of logistics would have to be setup. Current train wagons cannot transport Arjuns. They would need new ones, then comes the bridges near the Pak border. I think they are not Class 18. So cannot support Arjuns crossing over, etc, etc.

These are speculations on my part. They could be right or wrong.


----------



## Screaming Skull

*Arjun for Exports?​*
Thursday, Jun 04, 2009

The recent ceremony in Avadi, near Chennai, when 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks were rolled out by its manufacturer, Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF)  a part-supply for the 43rd regiment based in Rajasthan  brought cheers to those involved in the effort, both serving and retired alike.

Whether the cheers will last is a moot point as the Director-General Mechanised Forces (DGMF), who was present at the function, was silent about further orders for these tanks. HVF will complete the present and the only order so far by 2010 placed in the beginning of the decade. For long, it appeared that the Army firmly believed that having an indigenous tank in its stable was an idea whose time would never come. This will be evident if the course of history of even the past ten years, let alone the previous two decades, is traced.
Meeting standards

In 2004 the first pilot batch of tanks was handed over in the presence of the then Defence Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee. The Army, however, insisted, before production could proceed, on incorporating stringent specifications for fording capabilities  the tanks being under water at 2.1 meters depth with only 30 minutes preparation time.

This too was successfully demonstrated in the presence of Mr A. K. Antony, Defence Minister, in 2007 as well, by the cooperative efforts of HVF and the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation). Not easily satisfied, the Army now felt it was necessary to carry out (ACURT) Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials of a few tanks; in laymans parlance, Driving to death that includes running them for 8,000 km and firing 800 rounds of ammunition.

Ostensibly this was to work out the requirement of life-time spares although the same could have been done using advanced statistical methods, along with vendor inputs, extrapolating the vast experience of the Army in handling tanks of different vintages and designs since the Second World War. AURCT was also completed in August 2008 and modifications, as required by the experience gained, were successfully incorporated, and the first batch of tanks for this regiment was handed over in March 2009.

To reinforce the morale of HVF and the DRDO, a third-party audit by an independent international tank manufacturer certified that the Arjun was an excellent warhorse, particularly for deserts. Tanks are durable products involving decades of effort and years of manufacture. They are expected to survive not only enemy shelling but also stay with the Army for at least half a century.

Therefore, to acquire true value experience by the Mechanised Forces, tanks of a class and specification should be deployed in sufficient strength so that almost every jawan, non-commissioned officer (NCO) and officer in the armoured corps is imparted has repeated bouts of training and a stint of at least three years in a regiment of Arjun tanks.

This is possible only if the population of Arjun tanks in the Army is over 500 and that too built up within three years. However, the Army continues to have its eyes fixed on purchasing more and more of T-90 tanks from Russia during the same period.
Stalling the exercise

Miffed at the continued reluctance of the Army and armed with the credentials certified by independent audit, the DRDO is challenging the former to conduct comparative trials of T-90 and Arjun. The Army stalled such an exercise by first wanting at least 45 tanks in the regiment and then postponing the trials to October.

The Army is also inserting tactical elements in the test directives, such as, capturing a target which will take the focus away from equitable comparison of equipment capability. *However, happily for HVF and the DRDO, it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country.*
Who knows? Fortune may favour Arjun and it may be seen in service in larger numbers abroad than in the country of its origin.

*(The author is a former member, Ordnance Factory Board.)*

The Hindu Business Line : Will the Arjun tank keep rolling?


----------



## le_souriceau

I think it will be interesting. Here is my (with help of computer) translation of russian news article about Arjun (may 2009).

*Arjun missed *
_India is ready to abandon the tank of their own in favor of T-90 _

May 24, 2009, Indian media reported on the intentions of the defense department to conduct comparative field trials national Arjun tank and Russian T-90. Earlier the military had planned to start these exercises in May and June of 2009, putting them in a small number of machines. But for unknown reasons, decided to make the test more ambitious - they will attend two regiment, one of whom will be armed with the Indian and the other - Russian tanks. However, if the T-90 has long been armed with the Indian Army, the products of local production in the army yet familiar enough. 

The program to develop the first national Indian Arjun tank beats all the records not only in length but also by the number of technical problems. In 1972, the Army Indian Army set the requirements for future main battle tanks, as was chosen by Arjun, named in honor of the legendary warrior Arjuna, hero of the national epic "Mahabharata." 

Initially, the Indians were planning to create a 40-ton machine, armed with 105-mm gun, but then the standards have changed: the mass of the tank was up 58.5 tons and the caliber of weapons - 120 millimeters. 

Development of the tank began in 1974, one of the core units of defense research and development of India (Defence Research and Development Organization, DRDO). The work was carried out with the participation of the German company Krauss-Maffei, known as a producer of the famous Battle Tank Leopard, as well as several other companies from Germany. Therefore, as noted by the experts, the appearance and characteristics of the tank Arjun are very similar to the German Leopard 2A4. 

In addition, the design of machines used for more than 60 per cent of imported components. So call this tank can be a purely Indian perhaps with great stretch. 

During the development of machinery has increased the cost of the program many times, due to changes in technical specifications, as well as inflation. Thus, if the initial development of the Indians were planning to stay in the 3.5 million dollars, by 2005 the project has been estimated at 3 billion dollars. But quite seriously by the local standards of financial investments is not speeded up the development of the tank and does not deliver the producer of numerous technical difficulties. 

Arjun Tank 
Crew - 4 persons. 
Weight - 58.5 tonnes 
Length - 10,6 m. 
Width - 3.8 m. 
Height - 2,3 m. 
Speed - 72 km / h 
Mightily. Engine 1400 L / s 
Cruising range - 200 km 

The first prototype tank prospective Indian Army DRDO demonstrated after more than ten years since the beginning of the development - in 1985. Initially, the military planned to deliver by the 1500 tanks, although in 2000 decided to limit itself to only 124 tanks. But the first tank, sent the army to conduct the tests, the military returned to the manufacturer for further development. Grade Arjun in various modifications done so far and every time at the next stage identifies the new disadvantages. 

For example, in 2005, when the tests were identified problem Arjun sights, pendants, and fire control systems. In addition, under conditions when the air temperature reaching 55-60 degrees Celsius, the German made engines began to fail. In 2007, the military also expressed dissatisfaction with precision weapons and other technical characteristics. 

In the same year, during testing in desert conditions the representatives of the Indian army said that it is extremely disappointed with the first national tank, with 14 reporting deficiencies. These include, besides those already mentioned problems, was also added to low speed. 

2008 and does become disastrous for the developer of Indian machine which, by the way, does not necessarily agree with the claims of the military, and even declared sabotage during the test. This year, in particular, the defense establishment had signed a contract with Moscow for the supply of 347 T-90, which at that time were already armed with the Indian army. 

The military also announced their intention to adopt after 2020 a new main battle tank, which will have little to do with the Arjun. Their assistance in the development of Russia has proposed. In addition, representatives of the Land Forces of India confirmed that it did not intend to purchase additional batch tank Arjun, in addition to those already ordered 124 units. 

The T-90 
Crew - 3 people. 
Weight - 46.5 tonnes 
Length - 9,5 m. 
Width - 3.7 m. 
Height - 2,2 m. 
Speed - 65 km / h 
Mightily. Engine 840 l / s 
Cruising range - 650 km 

All of these factors, as noted by the experts, further exacerbated the situation and the already long-standing project. However, DRDO has yet to lose hope of his army up to 500 tanks, while the main battle tank Arjun has hardly become - it is obvious that the military did not hide their sympathies in favor of a more reliable and tested Russian technology. One may assume that the comparative tests of two tanks, which are scheduled for August 2009, and finally buried the project, or would the first Indian tank another, perhaps last, chance. 

Obviously, the Delhi development of main battle tank is not so much a matter of strengthening the military power of the army, how much prestige. Neighboring Pakistan, which is the eternal enemy and rival of India, managed to create its own main battle tank Al-Khalid in much more quickly. Suffice it to say that today armed with the Pakistani army has faced more than 300 such machines, although the development of the tank began only in 1990. 

True, called Al-Khalid purely Pakistani tank can also be only loosely - it was created on the basis of Soviet and Chinese technology, with the participation of Ukraine and has received a lot of imported components. In the future, the Army of Pakistan are planning to purchase up to 600 tanks of local production, although they also found and foreign consumers - in May 2008 the army of Sri Lanka ordered a batch of 22 Al-Khalid. 

India's tank after many decades of development has few prospects even in the domestic market, to say nothing about the outside. For a country which is one of the world leaders in the cost of weapons, so softly say, not quite solid. And despite recent attempts to rescue the project, the chances of favorable outcome for the Indian tank is rather low. 

Andrei Fyodorov


----------



## gubbi

le_souriceau said:


> I think it will be interesting. Here is my (with help of computer) translation of russian news article about Arjun (may 2009).
> 
> *Arjun missed *
> _India is ready to abandon the tank of their own in favor of T-90 _
> ..........
> 
> India's tank after many decades of development has few prospects even in the domestic market, to say nothing about the outside. For a country which is one of the world leaders in the cost of weapons, so softly say, not quite solid. And despite recent attempts to rescue the project, the chances of favorable outcome for the Indian tank is rather low.
> 
> Andrei Fyodorov



This seems like more bollocks to market the T-90. Not that I have anything against the formidable T-90, but Arjun MBT is almost at par with T-90 if not better.

heres a little piece I found about this.. yeah I am quoting a blog by a Ajai Shukla.. (Broadsword blog)



> Tuesday, 17 June 2008
> 
> Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials (link is the title)
> 
> by Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 17th June 08
> 
> India&#8217;s Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army&#8217;s Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding &#8220;comparative trials&#8221;, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90, are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.
> 
> But the army --- particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) --- is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials. Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.
> 
> DRDO sources say the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver. Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.
> 
> The DRDO&#8217;s fears are grounded in experience. On 28th July 2005, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, &#8220;The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army.&#8221;
> 
> But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4900 crores. That despite the MoD&#8217;s admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.
> 
> A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.
> 
> But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, &#8220;The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) are inducted in the army.&#8221;
> 
> This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 08. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s. The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now the Arjun is ready, but the army is not.
> 
> 
> Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF&#8217;s argument that the Arjun is a dud; the MoD wants comparative trials too. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, &#8220;The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert&#8230; and see which comes off best.&#8221;
> 
> Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better. But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical --- and therefore subjective --- dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.
> 
> The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun&#8217;s development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun. In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew --- something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank ---can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, &#8220;What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?&#8221;



These comments on that page is also worth quoting..

* Rahul said...


> DGMF is bullshitting Indian taxpayer.... T-90 was not night-fighting capable MBT when it joined IA. Later T-90 was upgrade. Why IA allowed it to evolve without declaring it a dud. When INSAS came in. Army declare it a dud. But instead of getting IAI Tavor. Why they still want a lethal carbine?
> Something which comes from outside is OK anyway. But when same or on-par equipment comes with a prefix 'indigenous' army comments...OH my god!! it's not combat fit. We can't fight with a dud!
> How IN has managed to pull so many war winning solutions from DRDO from which IAF and IA are still to get a JET and a MBT respectively?
> 
> IA just love to play 'Game Rouble' and enjoy 'White Skin'!



* Abhimans said...


> Mr. Shukla, words fail me to describe how deeply the series of 3 investigative articles on the Arjun's "plight", are appreciated by me.
> 
> At a time when it is a norm for every uninitiated and "newbie" journalist to join the "herd" of "DRDO bashers", you chose to 'swim against the tide', and unearthed for the nation, how the jawan is being denied a modern, lethal and safe tank. This investigation is not only an eye-opener for the public (and us "fans" of Arjun), but should also be heard by the Defence minister himself.
> 
> It has been speculated at various defence fora since the past few years, that the Arjun's induction is being 'thwarted' because of deeply rooted corruption, and not due to any Army claims of "low" performance etc. However, under the weight of a totally one-sided and 'prejudiced' media, there was no concrete proof, until your series of reports.
> 
> I may also highlight that DRDO chiefs have given various press releases and interviews since 2003-04, saying that the Arjun has passed the recent-most trials, and is ready for mass production and induction. However, the media -- especially the Indian Express and Tims of India -- never carried those reports, but carried large reports only highlighting the Army's point of view of "poor" performance.
> 
> Of course, I would also criticize your series of investigative journalism partly because the 'high' or motivation for it comes from being against the 'Establishment' --- which is every journalist's "secretly" nurtured feeling. Nevertheless, the impact of this series must be felt by the Defence minister and the Army Chief.
> 
> Now, it remains to be seen whether the Indian Express and ToI will continue to run stories against the Arjun, or whether for journalism's "sake", they will -- for once -- also air DRDO's and the tank driver's part of the story.
> 
> Thank you.


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## gubbi

Dissimilar Comparision of Arjum MBT with T-90:








Mobility Performance:





Fire Power Performance:





Protection Performance:





Source:

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## ironman

*Arjun trials with T-90s to be delayed by four months: Kapoor​*
New Delhi (PTI) Army chief General Deepak Kapoor on Friday said comparative trials of Arjun tanks with Russian-origin T-90s will be delayed by another four months, despite raising of an armoured regiment with the indigenous tanks recently.

The comparative trials, which will provide the final assessment on the future of Arjun tanks, could now take place in October-November this year.

"The Arjun tanks have been just delivered to the Army.It would take around three to four months before the regiments are fully operationalised. Once it is fully operationalised, we will carry out comparative trials between the Arjun tanks and the T-90s," General Kapoor told reporters here on the sidelines of an Army function. 

The Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi near Chennai had handed over 16 more Arjun tanks to the Army a fortnight ago, thereby meeting the requirement of 45 tanks for raising a new armoured regiment.

The Army had insisted that the comparative trials between Arjun tanks and the T-90s should be held at the regiment-level and had demanded that the DRDO deliver the 45 Arjun tanks before conducting the tests.

Once the comparative trials, which were originally scheduled for May-June this year, are over, the Army will carry out "evaluation before going further" with the induction of the indigenous tanks, General Kapoor indicated.


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## Keysersoze

ironman said:


> *Arjun trials with T-90s to be delayed by four months: Kapoor​*
> New Delhi (PTI) Army chief General Deepak Kapoor on Friday said comparative trials of Arjun tanks with Russian-origin T-90s will be delayed by another four months, despite raising of an armoured regiment with the indigenous tanks recently.
> 
> The comparative trials, which will provide the final assessment on the future of Arjun tanks, could now take place in October-November this year.
> 
> "The Arjun tanks have been just delivered to the Army.It would take around three to four months before the regiments are fully operationalised. Once it is fully operationalised, we will carry out comparative trials between the Arjun tanks and the T-90s," General Kapoor told reporters here on the sidelines of an Army function.
> 
> The Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi near Chennai had handed over 16 more Arjun tanks to the Army a fortnight ago, thereby meeting the requirement of 45 tanks for raising a new armoured regiment.
> 
> The Army had insisted that the comparative trials between Arjun tanks and the T-90s should be held at the regiment-level and had demanded that the DRDO deliver the 45 Arjun tanks before conducting the tests.
> 
> Once the comparative trials, which were originally scheduled for May-June this year, are over, the Army will carry out "evaluation before going further" with the induction of the indigenous tanks, General Kapoor indicated.



Hmm yet another delay huh? Can't say I am surprised.


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## le_souriceau

No offence, but I think all of these delays because the tank is still not fully working. It will be better modify T-90 once again, to the indian needs. And suffers no more wasting so much money.


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## MFI

I think that the IA is too caught up in Russian tech that they're no even willing to give the Arjun a try even if it's proven to be superior to the T-90.I mean come on the tank had to be certified by a foreign company.
It's faster,got more speed,less ground pressure,...


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## beckham

deleted post !


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## nwmalik

Bast**d.
Should be banned forever.
dont disgrace your country.


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## Mig-29

*DRDO to continue indigenous Arjun tanks production for Army*

New Delhi, July 13 (ANI): Allaying fears of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists that the production of the Arjun main battle tank will be stopped, the government has decided to continue with its manufacture, and added that a second regiment of the indigenously built combat vehicle will be raised soon.

The Army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjun tanks that it has contracted for because it was unhappy with the tank on various counts.

A senior Defence Ministry official said: "At present, the Army has been supplied with one regiment of 45 Arjun tanks. Another 77 tanks will be supplied by March 2010. Also, the apprehension of the scientists has been allayed and the production of the tank will continue."

The official also added that the government is planning to raise a second regiment of Arjun tanks. The first regiment of the combat vehicle will become fully operational in October this year.

The Arjun tank is meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 and was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.

DRDO is of the view that the MBT Arjun is strategically a very competent armoured vehicle, having an excellent weight to power ratio, good mobility and very accurate firepower, which conform to the requirements laid down by the Army.

It compares excellently with all the heavy class of tanks available across the world and can be effectively deployed in most of the border areas of our country. The Army had cleared the MBT Arjun for production and placed an indent on March 30, 2000 for the manufacture of 124 tanks by 2009 for two regiments.

The DRDO has been demanding comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 tanks, which is being seen as an effort to meet criticism against the indigenous combat vehicle. Around 500 tanks would need to be manufactured to make the project successful.

"Comparative trials will take place with the Russian-made T-90 tanks in October-November," the Defence Ministry official said.

The trials could deliver the final verdict on the combat vehicle, which took 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds, costing over Rs. 300 crore.

The Army wanted a full regiment of 45 tanks, which was delivered in May, for conversion training and field practice for a period of three months before going for trials. By Praful Kumar Singh (ANI).

DRDO to continue indigenous Arjun tanks production for Army - Yahoo! India News

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## destiny

July 13th, 2009 - 5:11 pm ICT by IANS 

New Delhi, July 13 (IANS) The production of the indigenously built main battle tank (MBT) Arjun will continue, with an additional 77 tanks to be supplied to the Indian Army by March 2010, an official said Monday amid concerns about the project. There was apprehension among Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists that the production would have to halt as the army had put its foot down and declined to buy more than 124 tanks as contracted earlier.

Currently, the Indian Army has been supplied with one regiment of 45 tanks. Another 77 tanks will be supplied by March 2010. Also, the apprehension of the scientists has been allayed and the production of the tank will continue, a senior defence official told IANS.

The DRDO needs to manufacture and deliver at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible. The officials comment is seen as a sign that the army might go for more Arjun tanks in future.

Currently the tanks supplied to the army are undergoing tests before being operationalised.

After this comparative trials will be conducted with the Russian-made T-90 tanks in October-November. Arjun will replace the T-55 and T-72 tanks, the official said.

The comparative trials, earlier scheduled in May-June 2009, could deliver the final verdict on Arjun that has been 36 years in the making and has cost Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million).

The army had insisted on the delivery of a full regiment (45 tanks) of Arjun before the comparative trials can be conducted. This demand was met when the DRDO delivered 16 more tanks to the army.

The army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts.

This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that a prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120-mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistans decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.



Production of indigenous Arjun tanks to continue: official


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## sudhir007

Army to get 124 Arjun tanks in six months - Pune - City - The Times of India

PUNE: As many as 124 Arjun tanks will be inducted into the army in five-six months, said W. Selvamurthy, chief controller of research and 
development at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (drdo). 

Arjun is the state-of-the-art main battle tank designed and developed by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. 

"These 124 tanks are in various stages of production. All of them will get inducted into the armed forces in March and April," Selvamurthy said, adding that a few tanks have already been handed over. "Other organisations are also giving us orders." 

He was speaking at the valedictory function of a training course at the Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT) at Girinagar in Khadakwasla. Samir K. Bramachari, director-general, Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and the vice-chancellor of DIAT L.M. Patnaik were present on the occasion. 

Addressing the passing out students, Bramachari said that defence scientists should also consider making use of technology for civilian purposes. "Indian scientists are divided into two categories -- strategic scientists and scientists for civil applications. How to make the use of strategic knowledge for the benefit of civil works will be challenge of budding DRDO scientists." 

The DIAT deemed university is a premier DRDO establishment working for human resources development for the defence forces. It imparts education and training to the officers of the armed forces, DRDO scientists, technical officers of the ordinance factory board, directorate of quality assurance, public sector undertakings and foreign countries. 

The institute has been recently recognised as a campus selection centre of the DRDO.


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## sudhir007

Why not army induct arjun in large no. as of army has to replace there T-55 & Vijayanta next 10 yr it is better tank but the problem it is senior army officer did not get money from indigenous product


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## graphican

sudhir007 said:


> Army to get 124 Arjun tanks in six months - Pune - City - The Times of India
> 
> PUNE: As many as 124 Arjun tanks will be inducted into the army in five-six months, said W. Selvamurthy, chief controller of research and
> development at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (drdo).
> 
> *Arjun is the state-of-the-art main battle tank *designed and developed by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Avadi in Tamil Nadu.
> 
> "These 124 tanks are in various stages of production. All of them will get inducted into the armed forces in March and April," Selvamurthy said, adding that a few tanks have already been handed over. "Other organisations are also giving us orders."
> 
> He was speaking at the valedictory function of a training course at the Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT) at Girinagar in Khadakwasla. Samir K. Bramachari, director-general, Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and the vice-chancellor of DIAT L.M. Patnaik were present on the occasion.
> 
> Addressing the passing out students, Bramachari said that defence scientists should also consider making use of technology for civilian purposes. "Indian scientists are divided into two categories -- strategic scientists and scientists for civil applications. How to make the use of strategic knowledge for the benefit of civil works will be challenge of budding DRDO scientists."
> 
> The DIAT deemed university is a premier DRDO establishment working for human resources development for the defence forces. It imparts education and training to the officers of the armed forces, DRDO scientists, technical officers of the ordinance factory board, directorate of quality assurance, public sector undertakings and foreign countries.
> 
> The institute has been recently recognised as a campus selection centre of the DRDO.



Should this move by the Indian Army be termed as "corruption"? When Millions and Millions of dollars has been spent on Arjun(k), Indian Army is looking to save few a$$es in DRDO by purchasing something they never felt good enough. A bad news for Indian Patriotics I guess.

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## FireFighter

sudhir007 said:


> Why not army induct arjun in large no. as of army has to replace there T-55 & Vijayanta next 10 yr it is better tank but the problem it is senior army officer did not get money from indigenous product



Very good question. I'd also like to know any major upgrades being done to the Arjuns before induction?


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## fatman17

so finally the DRDO has run rough-shod over the poweful IA and the many-times rejected tank is now being inducted to save the billions of $$$ spent over the past what 20 years on its development.


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## DaRk WaVe

At last after years & years of work & millions of Dollars we are getting Arjun(k) inducted, but only 126 Arjun(k), strange

Seems IA just want to cover up the Failure


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## conworldus

sudhir007 said:


> Why not army induct arjun in large no. as of army has to replace there T-55 & Vijayanta next 10 yr it is better tank but the problem it is senior army officer did not get money from indigenous product



You don't get it do you? The Arjun did not meet all the test requirements. It selected the underpowered engine to start with, and later on it gained a lot of weight that forced the engineers to redesign for a bigger engine. Then the tract breaks down every 300 km, and it has problem with heat, and the Arjun will crush most Indian domestic bridge with its 60ton weight... the list goes on.

The Indian army simple doesn't want it. But to save face, it ordered 126 for training purposes. Meanwhile, it got a **** load of T-90s to replace the older tanks. Arjun is officially dead.

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## SBD-3

emo_girl said:


> At last after years & years of work & millions of Dollars we are getting Arjun(k) inducted, but only 126 Arjun(k), strange
> 
> Seems IA just want to cover up the Failure



they wont be taking any risk......................What i think is that for extending the life of the project for a possible success, they are making such a move.........Definitely Arjuns would be going in Upgrades as the development picks up.


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## holysaturn

now that the drdo has learned a lesson it must channel its resources(which it is already doing) into unmanned BMP,future infantry vehicle,future unmanned tanks(much more similar to future combat systems)but it has to make sure that these are incremental and evolutionary and not rushed especially wen u have the russians joining hands.the nation wishes the best for the cvrde to change past images.


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## mjnaushad

sudhir007 said:


> Why not army induct arjun in large no. as of army has to replace there T-55 & Vijayanta next 10 yr it is better tank but the problem it is senior army officer did not get money from indigenous product


Arjun is not a big hit. The following is quoted from wikipedia



> Trials and exercise
> 
> [edit]July 2005
> During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius.
> [edit]Summer 2006
> There are conflicting accounts of Arjun's trial results in 2006. In 2007, Major General H.M. Singh, a director in charge of trial and evaluation, said that the last year's user field trial report had certified that the accuracy and consistency of the weapon system was proved beyond doubt."[30][31] However, the 2006 army trial results showed that "the decade-old problems of overheating persist" and that "tank&#8217;s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner&#8217;s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjun&#8217;s abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee."[32]
> [edit]Exercise 2007
> The Arjun tank was fielded during the Ashwamedha exercise in the deserts of Rajasthan.[33] The army was extremely unhappy with the tank, citing 14 defects that included "deficient fire control system". "inaccuracy of its guns", "low speeds in tactical areas", and "inability to operate over 50 degrees Celsius".[34]. "The Army is now faced with a troubling prospect: inducting a lumbering, misfiring, vintage design tank like the Arjun, and that, too, in large numbers"[32]. This, after DRDO over-shot Arjun&#8217;s project deadline by 16 years &#8212; from 1984 to 1995, finally closing the project only in 2000 &#8212; and the cost over-run is almost 20 times the original estimate. This is the highest percentage over-run for any DRDO project.[32]
> [edit]September 2007 winter trials
> Starting with the September 2007 winter trials, the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.
> DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.
> [edit]2008 summer trials
> Auxiliary User Cum reliability trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun MBT was conducted from September 2007 to summer of 2008. In a report to the Parliamentary standing committee the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including four engine failures within only 1000 kilometers.[36] The defense minister presented this report before the parliament, later published by Press Information Bureau Government of India (PIB).
> The Army wrote in the report that during the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels". Sabotage was suspected, but the Army rejected that any sabotage happened during the trials.
> A later report published by the Government of India during the induction ceremony of the Arjun tank, confirms the success of the trial.An independent evaluation of the tank by a reputed tank manufacturer found that the the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics.
> DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure".Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities.


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## holysaturn

ya ya giv me a break.let me put it this way arjun is not a total piece of sh*t.it has some things which do count(rifled gun,NERA,composite armour,hydropneumatic susp).but on the whole it su*s.i guess in the west ,for the money spent on the arjun u can get only these components mentioned above .


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## gogbot

Arjun is a victim of a Corrupted government and bad rep from DRDO

Although the Latest Arjun is top notch.
The IA wants T-90's because they get more money from Foreign Purchases.
Corruption is ripe in Army.

The Arjun tank is also much cheaper than a T-90. and is in fact better un many areas.






















Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

To all those who say the Arjun is to heavy, the ground preasre of the T-90 is actually greater. The Arjuns weight is in fact similar to that of the Abrams

whilst the IAF and IN have embraced domestic production to the best of their ability.

IA continues to be largely supplied by only Foreign Gear.

to all those, who criticize the Arjun understand, that weather or not the Arjun is ever used in Large numbers.
It is a dam good tank. and when the IA mentality changes, Lessons learned from the Arjun will produce a far greater Tank.

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## sudhir007

any report of arjun vs t-90 tank trail which is held in this oct.


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## XYON

Oh Boy!

More junk for an already crowded junkyard of IA!


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## mjnaushad

gogbot said:


> Arjun is a victim of a Corrupted government and bad rep from DRDO
> 
> Although the Latest Arjun is top notch.
> The IA wants T-90's because they get more money from Foreign Purchases.
> Corruption is ripe in Army.
> 
> The Arjun tank is also much cheaper than a T-90. and is in fact better un many areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
> 
> To all those who say the Arjun is to heavy, the ground preasre of the T-90 is actually greater. The Arjuns weight is in fact similar to that of the Abrams
> 
> whilst the IAF and IN have embraced domestic production to the best of their ability.
> 
> IA continues to be largely supplied by only Foreign Gear.
> 
> to all those, who criticize the Arjun understand, that weather or not the Arjun is ever used in Large numbers.
> It is a dam good tank. and when the IA mentality changes, Lessons learned from the Arjun will produce a far greater Tank.


dude. The info you provided is right but 1400 HP engine is no good if it stop working on 55 C. India should stop working on Arjun and use the experience on the new tank they are building. (Tank Ex i guess what they call it).


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## gogbot

mjnaushad said:


> dude. The info you provided is right but 1400 HP engine is no good if it stop working on 55 C. India should stop working on Arjun and use the experience on the new tank they are building. (Tank Ex i guess what they call it).



All bugs have been fixed in the latest version, this was one year ago.

Since then they have been trying to Upgrade the Tank so IA cant find any excuse not to induct the Tank.



> Latest Development
> Arjun Tank model
> 
> DRDO is continuing to develop some new technology systems for MBT Arjun.
> 
> 1. Automatic target locating, tracking and destruction.
> 
> 2. DRDO is developing the Tank Urban Survival Kit which is a series of improvements to the Arjun intended to improve fighting ability in urban environments which includes defensive aids like laser warning, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system.
> 
> 3. DRDO also plans to develop robotic vehicles that will work on tele-link in addition to make the tracking of targets automatic.
> 
> 4. CVRDE is in the process of developing tank simulators.
> 
> 5. A new improved 1500 hp engine.
> 
> 6. Addition of Slope Armor in front region like in Leo2A6M.















Defensive Aid Systems for Arjun MBT Ready: DRDO | India Defence

Let me remind you that the Arjun withstood a shot from T-70 point blank.

Can you name a tank in Pakistan's arsenal that can perform a similar feat.

The only reason anyone considers the Arjun a failure is the Army's reluctance to accept the Tank.

They even have avoided the T-90 vs Arjun MBT test. IA officials are simply determined to keep Arjun down. As long as possible. So they can get Kick backs from foreign Contracts.

IA's only major indigenous operation is the F-INSAS program that is manged by the Top Brass.

Given its Cheap price The Arjun will see More orders as the Upgrades are added and the Mk-II is produced.

I wouldn't count the Arjun out yet.

either way their Is a Proposed JV between Indian and Russian Firms to produce a NExt-gen Tank. I would of wanted a Israile JV. They have better Tanks and Protection suits.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

gogbot said:


> All bugs have been fixed in the latest version, this was one year ago.
> 
> Since then they have been trying to Upgrade the Tank so IA cant find any excuse not to induct the Tank.
> 
> ....



More intelligent people will recognize these are lies. There are fundamental malfunctioning areas in all major components of the Arjun, and these will won't go away just by wishing it so. That said, I would recommend India maintain their indigenous tank program but start anew from scratch.

Let me be the first to state that the big-clunky-40-to-60-ton-MBT is going to become an antiquity of the past. The new move is towards a different 'species' of more mobile, automated lighter "hunter-machines" that are more suited in all environment, including urban warfare. I'll stop here.


----------



## gogbot

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> More intelligent people will recognize these are lies. There are fundamental malfunctioning areas in all major components of the Arjun, and these will won't go away just by wishing it so. That said, I would recommend India maintain their indigenous tank program but start anew from scratch.
> 
> Let me be the first to state that the big-clunky-40-to-60-ton-MBT is going to become an antiquity of the past. The new move is towards a different 'species' of more mobile, automated lighter "hunter-machines" that are more suited in all environment, including urban warfare. I'll stop here.



SO let me see if i Understand , you say we are not able fix basic problems, that according to you exist in everything, but if we start a new tank. These problems will just disappears and not prop up in the new designs.

Give me a Break.

You just cant accept that India can make good tank.
Arjun is a heavy tank built to provide the best protection for the crew.

The M1A Abrams weighs 62 tonnes and is widely considered as the best tank in the world Currently.

There is nothing wrong with the weight of the Arjun Tank.

Every one keeps talking of all these flaws in the tank.
but can u provide any specific Info from recent source.

and not problem from 5 years ago that have been addressed.


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## gubbi

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> More intelligent people will recognize these are lies. There are fundamental malfunctioning areas in all major components of the Arjun, and these will won't go away just by wishing it so. That said, I would recommend India maintain their indigenous tank program but start anew from scratch.


Fascinating allegations there. Have you tested the Arjun MBT yourself since you claim to know that all major components of Arjun have malfunctioning areas? Or do you have sources who know much more than people who actually work on that tank?


> Let me be the first to state that the big-clunky-40-to-60-ton-MBT is going to become an antiquity of the past. The new move is towards a different 'species' of more mobile, automated lighter "hunter-machines" that are more suited in all environment, including urban warfare. I'll stop here.



Just shows how much you know. We will keep that in mind in the future. Lol!!


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## Chanakyaa

Tank Tech would be the easiest to develop when compared to indegenious:

ATV
AGNI
ABMs

THESE PROJECTS WERE BUILT FROM SCRATH by DRDO,WHEN Noting similar, existed before even as an example. 

Tanks were here since WW2 I THINK, BUT HOW IRONICAL THAT IT IS STILL A DREAM TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL MBT.

i can seek just one reason : IA CORRUPTION


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## jwh

Honor said:


> It is a good tank according to the specification. It is better than T90. India should get more Arjun



To me, Arjun is just a bad mimic of leopard 2, it will take long time to digest the technologies. The starting point is too high, the industry is just not ready for it.

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## grey boy 2

jwh said:


> To me, Arjun is just a bad mimic of leopard 2, it will take long time to digest the technologies. The starting point is too high, the industry is just not ready for it.



Brother, exactly as you pointed out, when you overestimated youself

Thats the result you expected.

Poor planning, over-optimistic timelines and a lack of coordination with the Armed Forces led to cost and time overruns of major defence projects taken up by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), says the first external review of the research body. The P Rama Rao committee, which was formed to revamp the organisation, has said that the major cause for delays and failures of indigenous defence products is DRDOs tendency to over-estimate its capabilities. The inability of the research body to involve the Armed Forces in developmental projects from the start has been identified as a major area of concern. 


In all of the major projects reviewed by the committee  the Light Combat Aircraft, the Arjun Tank, Kaveri engine and the Akash Surface to Air Missile  it cracked down on the DRDO for the same problems of over-optimism and poor planning. The LCA project has come under a lot of flak from the committee, which says the delays resulted in a substantive setback to the Air Force and reduced its war-fighting potential. Even now, when 48 of the fighters are set to be inducted into the Air Force, five major problems areas remain unresolved, reducing the capability of the fighter, the review reveals.


Similarly, DRDO scientists over-enthusiasm about the capability of the organisation has been identified as the main reason behind delays in the Arjun Tank project. While the committee has said that the tank be inducted in the present form, it has directed DRDO to immediately work on a new more acceptable version of the tank. The committee has now recommended to the Government that DRDO should undertake all projects in the future on a joint developmental basis and involve foreign partners to imbibe global standards. DRDOs tendency of overstretching itself to reinvent the wheel has also been noted and the committee has said that foreign help should be taken without any reservations in future projects. The committee has taken a look at some major projects and has recommended the road ahead on each one of them.
ASIAN DEFENCE: What went wrong with LCA, Arjun Tank, Akash missile


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## Honor

jwh said:


> To me, Arjun is just a bad mimic of leopard 2, it will take long time to digest the technologies. The starting point is too high, the industry is just not ready for it.



Only Indian army knows how's the performance of Arjun! If it is so good, IA will have order more such tank in future.


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## mjnaushad

gogbot said:


> Let me remind you that the Arjun withstood a shot from T-70 point blank.
> 
> Can you name a tank in Pakistan's arsenal that can perform a similar feat.



Maybe yes Maybe No. But the discussion is not Pakistani Tank V Arjun. If you really want to compared a tank with rival country than type 99 of China withheld 7 shots of T72. My source is wikipedia. I guess your is wikipedia too.


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## fhassan

Interesting, very interesting indeed.

- 35 years of development / induction 

- cost 10s of billions to develop 

And at the end of it all you&#8217;ll induct around 120 Arjunks.

The facts speak for themselves.

 Check mate and have a nice day


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## Peshwa

mjnaushad said:


> Maybe yes Maybe No. But the discussion is not Pakistani Tank V Arjun. If you really want to compared a tank with rival country than type 99 of China withheld 7 shots of T72. My source is wikipedia. I guess your is wikipedia too.



In most practical scenarios's the Arjun Tank wont see battle with the Chinese tanks.....

The tank is built to be utilized in the Deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab aimed towards the Pakistani counterpart....

Unless Pakistan possesses the Type 99....The comparison is moot....Might as well compare it with the Abram, Lecrec or the Leopard 2.....while you're at it

Though I am very interested in seeing Arjun's capabilyty vs the T-90......once we have that, we can judge to see the "international standards" of the Tank.....


Note to my fellow Indians.....Why do we get so worked up or try to prove Arjun's capability to anyone??
I can see if we didnt have other options, but we do..... its our tech, our money, our army.....If we want it, we will keep it if not, we discard and use the knowledge for future.....
Do we really need approval from anyone about success/failures of our institutions??

Beggars cant be choosers, we have $250 Billion in reserves......If we want, we can purchase tech for the most advanced Tanks in the blink of an eye.......
Let the haters hate....

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## ironman

*Indian armoured modernisation programme comprises an ambitious mid-life upgrade of T-72M1 Main Battle Tanks​*
By Brig. Arun Sahgal (retd)

*Also under construction at HVF are 124 units of the Indian locally-designed Arjun MBT, which recently underwent comparative trials with the T-72 and T-90S. These desert trials, it is learned, were fairly successful which has pushed the army to raise the initial order to 250 enough for six regiments with a possible product improved order for another 250 as Mark II version.*

*Adding to the haphazard and somewhat ad hoc plethora of armour, procurement programme, ministry of defence in 2008 concluded a fresh contract with Russia to supply an additional 347 T-90S in complete sets of components for local assembly. However, these supplementary T-90S kits are not expected to impinge on the agreed scope of the license program to locally construct 1,000 MBTs with production that was to have begun in 2007, but was postponed. In all, the armys armour profile through 2015-2020 could comprise of approximately 1700 T-90S, 1800-2000 upgraded T-72M1s, and 250500 Arjuns*

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

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## Hulk

thats great news.


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## gogbot

More Arjun's . Finally some justice.


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## Tejas-MkII

Here is the confirmation with some agni information:

India readying weapon system




> Saraswat said that no problem existed with the design of the Agni II missile, the test-firing of which failed twice last year. "There are no problems with the design. The problem is basically with the production quality. I won't say a 'slip' in production quality, but an 'oversight' at minute levels. We've to make sure that manpower at the production agencies is adequately trained," he said.
> 
> *On Arjun, the Main Battle Tank developed by the DRDO, Saraswat said that the Army was "comfortable" with the first batch of 124 tanks. A second batch will be supplied soon. *

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## Tejas-MkII

Some details about MkII, an old one but usefull..

Development is a continuous effort and Arjun Tank will be following the same in future. Since there are advantages of product improvements, rather than starting all over again, the Arjun MBT development will be periodic improvements as in the case of the worldwide MBT&#8217;s. Current design of the Arjun Tanks has been frozen to enable production. Arjun Tank in the next phase will see comparatively major changes. It could be called as Futuristic MBT. 

As the worldwide MBT&#8217;s are getting network warfare friendly, Arjun MBT will have a logical improvement via a Battle Field Management System (BFMS). *BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAV&#8217;s too*.

The BFMS will give the geographical location of the terrain, location of our own troops, location of enemy targets, illuminate targets, help navigation, display the health of tanks, status of ammunition holding in the tank, fuel stock etc. 

More at *****************


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## yashraj

gogbot said:


> More Arjun's . Finally some *justice*.



This is not a Justice my Friend.
if u look at the data sheets of the T90 and Arjun, you can clearly see that our Currupt Minister buy t90 because of bribe. T90 is good performer but Arjun is best for the Our nation

1) Batter proteced then T90 

2) Higher offroad(Due to sate of the arm Hydropnumatic suspantion)
and on road speed. 

3) Batter fire power(Have high hit propability then T90 and also can fire HESH round, which can kill tank at more then 5 Km away, Challager-1 with same type of gun and same type of ammunition have done this in First Gulf war) 

4) Arjun can pump back the Defence money in to our Manufaturing Indus. and can give work to our people. 

5) and Most important thing "Self reliance"


But our Currupted ministersdon't like this because if they don't purchase form OUTSIDER then they don't get paid by them, I just want to  them till Death.

If we have about 2000 to 3000 ARJUN BY NOW THEN IT WILL BE THE JUSTICE FOR OUR OWN MBT.


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## karan.1970

yashraj said:


> This is not a Justice my Friend.
> if u look at the data sheets of the T90 and Arjun, you can clearly see that our Currupt Minister buy t90 because of bribe. T90 is good performer but Arjun is best for the Our nation
> 
> 1) Batter proteced then T90
> 
> 2) Higher offroad(Due to sate of the arm Hydropnumatic suspantion)
> and on road speed.
> 
> 3) Batter fire power(Have high hit propability then T90 and also can fire HESH round, which can kill tank at more then 5 Km away, Challager-1 with same type of gun and same type of ammunition have done this in First Gulf war)
> 
> 4) Arjun can pump back the Defence money in to our Manufaturing Indus. and can give work to our people.
> 
> 5) and Most important thing "Self reliance"
> 
> 
> But our Currupted ministersdon't like this because if they don't purchase form OUTSIDER then they don't get paid by them, I just want to  them till Death.
> 
> If we have about 2000 to 3000 ARJUN BY NOW THEN IT WILL BE THE JUSTICE FOR OUR OWN MBT.



Yashraj

Very true and I share the frustration. However it seems that at this time, it was the MoD that pushed the Army to do the comparitive trials and it looked like Army not being keen to take Arjuns instead. To me it seems like inertia on Army's part. A good parallel is the SUV scene in India.. A lot of folks (though its changing) prefer to spend 2x cost and buy a ford Endevour instead of a Scorpio or a Safari which even though not as refined, is still great in technology and suitability for indian conditions at great value for money. Unfortunately some of us still have a tilt towards foreign maal.. But here's to an early change of mind sets..


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## gogbot

yashraj said:


> This is not a Justice my Friend.
> if u look at the data sheets of the T90 and Arjun, you can clearly see that our Currupt Minister buy t90 because of bribe. T90 is good performer but Arjun is best for the Our nation
> 
> 1) Batter proteced then T90
> 
> 2) Higher offroad(Due to sate of the arm Hydropnumatic suspantion)
> and on road speed.
> 
> 3) Batter fire power(Have high hit propability then T90 and also can fire HESH round, which can kill tank at more then 5 Km away, Challager-1 with same type of gun and same type of ammunition have done this in First Gulf war)
> 
> 4) Arjun can pump back the Defence money in to our Manufaturing Indus. and can give work to our people.
> 
> 5) and Most important thing "Self reliance"
> 
> 
> But our Currupted ministersdon't like this because if they don't purchase form OUTSIDER then they don't get paid by them, I just want to  them till Death.
> 
> If we have about 2000 to 3000 ARJUN BY NOW THEN IT WILL BE THE JUSTICE FOR OUR OWN MBT.



Take the small victories.

250 Arjuns is an improvement on 124.

Who knows we might get more by the middle of the decade.

The fact that they are getting more is a good sign.


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## jha

since there is news of arjun mk-2... we might see the arjun with current config capped to 250. there was also news somewhere of revival of tank-x program... in case of army everything is very unclear...


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## fhassan

So, how many Arjunks you guys planning to have in total?


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## gogbot

fhassan said:


> So, how many Arjunks you guys planning to have in total?



250 ordered

500 planned

2000+ MBT's needed before 2020

Unless we hear of a massive order of T-90's 

There will a few thousand Arjuns


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## fhassan

Thanks for the reply.

A few 1000? 

Time will tell...


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## yankee6

mind you friend its arjun & junks will be yor al khalid in battlefield


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## karan.1970

fhassan said:


> So, how many Arjunks you guys planning to have in total?



As many as it takes to overwhelm your Al-Khatams


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## gogbot

yankee6 said:


> mind you friend its arjun & junks will be yor al khalid in battlefield





karan.1970 said:


> As many as it takes to overwhelm your Al-Khatams



what is the point of creating unnecessary comparisons and provoking others.

Lets keep it civil

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## Roby

gogbot said:


> what is the point of creating unnecessary comparisons and provoking others.
> 
> Lets keep it civil



No...he started it..you didnt notice...



> Originally Posted by *fhassan*
> 
> So, how many *Arjunks* you guys planning to have in total?


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## gogbot

Roby said:


> No...he started it..you didnt notice...



Does it matter who started. 
It's not too outlandish a statement. Just let it slide.
We are confident in the Arjun. Nothing but practical demonstration can change their mind now can it 



> An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind



we dont have to derail the thread on every word and statement

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## jha

its their duty to troll in every india related thread ...whats new .....any ways carry on the discussion....
i am sincerely looking forward to revival of TANK-EX and starting of ARJUN-MK2


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## Iggy

jha said:


> its their duty to troll in every india related thread ...whats new .....any ways carry on the discussion....
> i am sincerely looking forward to revival of TANK-EX and starting of ARJUN-MK2



Sorry for going offtopic but going to devalop all kind of Tanks like Tank-X and Arjun MKII with the exitisting T90 and modernised T-72 and also Arjun MK I will become a logistical nightmare ...I dont understand the logic behind this various tanks?


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## jha

you think they will be in production in a fortnight...ARJUN MK2 is supposed to be a new generation tank and TANK-EX is for the lighter class...when they will be ready for induction T-72 will be long retired...
feel free to disagree


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## fhassan

It was just a joke guys, lighten up.


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## karan.1970

fhassan said:


> It was just a joke guys, lighten up.





> As many as it takes to overwhelm your Al-Khatams


I thought so too. and tried to respond with a little toungue in cheek. But looking at responses, am a bit embarrased at my post. 

No malice was intended..

cheers


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## hembo

*In final test, Arjun tank to take on Russian T-90*
Sat, Jan 16 05:52 PM

New Delhi, Jan 16 (IANS) The Arjun main battle tank will take on the Russian built T-90 tanks March 1, when the core strength of the indigenously-built tank will be assessed by the Indian Army's observers.

This could deliver the final verdict on a platform that has been 36 years in the making and which has cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million).

With one regiment of the Arjun tanks (comprising 45 tanks) completing their conversion training and field practice, the comparative trials will be conducted at Mahajan Range in Rajasthan March 1.

'Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks,' a senior official of the Indian Army said, wishing anonymity.

Experts from mechanised forces and officials from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will also witness the comparative trials.

The DRDO had handed over 16 tanks to the Indian Army last year, completing one regiment of 45 tanks. The regiment was then subjected to conversion training and field practice.

The DRDO's demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks was being seen as a last-ditch bid to save the Arjun as some 500 tanks would need to be acquired by the army to make the project feasible.

The army, however, has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

The army's stand has been contrary to a third-party assessment by an internationally reputed tank manufacturer.

The official said: 'As suggested by the army, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment in a third-party audit. After the extensive evaluation, the auditor confirmed that Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and firepower characteristics suitable for Indian deserts.'

'They (the auditor) also gave inputs on production procedures for further enhancing the performance of Arjun tanks. DRDO will be incorporating all these inputs before the next lot of 62 tanks is handed over to army by March 2010,' the official added.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

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## Ruag

*In final test, Arjun tank to take on Russian T-90 *



> New Delhi, Jan 16 : The Arjun main battle tank will take on the Russian built T-90 tanks March 1, when the core strength of the indigenously-built tank will be assessed by the Indian Army's observers.
> 
> This could deliver the final verdict on a platform that has been 36 years in the making and which has cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million).
> 
> With one regiment of the Arjun tanks (comprising 45 tanks) completing their conversion training and field practice, the comparative trials will be conducted at Mahajan Range in Rajasthan March 1.
> 
> "Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks," a senior official of the Indian Army said, wishing anonymity.
> 
> Experts from mechanised forces and officials from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will also witness the comparative trials.
> 
> The DRDO had handed over 16 tanks to the Indian Army last year, completing one regiment of 45 tanks. The regiment was then subjected to conversion training and field practice.
> 
> The DRDO's demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks was being seen as a last-ditch bid to save the Arjun as some 500 tanks would need to be acquired by the army to make the project feasible.
> 
> The army, however, has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.
> 
> The army's stand has been contrary to a third-party assessment by an internationally reputed tank manufacturer.
> 
> The official said: "As suggested by the army, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment in a third-party audit. After the extensive evaluation, the auditor confirmed that Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and firepower characteristics suitable for Indian deserts."
> 
> "They (the auditor) also gave inputs on production procedures for further enhancing the performance of Arjun tanks. DRDO will be incorporating all these inputs before the next lot of 62 tanks is handed over to army by March 2010," the official added.
> 
> The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.
> 
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.
> 
> However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.



In final test, Arjun tank to take on Russian T-90

More info - 
Arjun tanks to be tested against Russian T-90s before May

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us hope the trials will be fair and transparent. May the best tank win.

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## faithfulguy

So I guess this is the last stand of Arjun?


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## Ruag

faithfulguy said:


> So I guess this is the last stand of Arjun?



Maybe, maybe not. But even if it is the last stand of the Arjun, we still have this to look forward to - 

India, Russia plan joint development of tank

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## Honor

If that's a good tank, Indian Army should buy more.

The no. of purchased by Indian Army tells her quality.


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## Ruag

Honor said:


> If that's a good tank, Indian Army should buy more.
> 
> The no. of purchased by Indian Army tells her quality.



By that logic, the number of JF-17s purchased by PLAAF speaks volumes about the fighter jet's quality.

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## BlackSonic

faithfulguy said:


> So I guess this is the last stand of Arjun?





> "Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks,"



Read the news again....please.


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## faithfulguy

Ruag said:


> By that logic, the number of JF-17s purchased by PLAAF speaks volumes about the fighter jet's quality.



Pakistan plan to purchase a lot of this, isn't it?


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## Hulk

One of the reason why IA downplays Arjun's performance is because DRDO does not give them cuts. 
While someone who has used both in IA said Arjun is good tank. I read that in Arjun's thread here.

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## navtrek

faithfulguy said:


> Pakistan plan to purchase a lot of this, isn't it?



They have no other option left  
its cost effective & optimum solution for them


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## antartica

faithfulguy said:


> Pakistan plan to purchase a lot of this, isn't it?


they are buying this just to replace their aging fleet . Whether it upto the mark or not , it doesnt matters to them as long as they get a new machine .


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## Iggy

indianrabbit said:


> One of the reason why IA downplays Arjun's performance is because DRDO does not give them cuts.
> While someone who has used both in IA said Arjun is good tank. I read that in Arjun's thread here.



You are right dude..That why DRDO openly challenged IA to have a comparitive field trial between T-90 and Arjun..DRDO is in full confidence that Arjun is better than T series..Lets hope its true..


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## conworldus

Arjun is a 60 ton heavy, while the T-90 is a 40 something medium tank. This isn't exactly fair.


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## Iggy

conworldus said:


> Arjun is a 60 ton heavy, while the T-90 is a 40 something medium tank. This isn't exactly fair.



May be we can ask about an International standardization for weight to make all the Tank wars fair

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## Insane

Ab Ayega oont ( T-90 ) Pahad ( Arjun ) ke Neeche


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## Kinshuk

seiko said:


> May be we can ask about an International standardization for weight to make all the Tank wars fair



lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


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## Adios Amigo

Arjun has been known for having a number of problems in the past. Dont known to what extent these problems have been fixed by DRDO???
Also dont know about its performance in the deserts, and that may be one of the main reasons IA has been reluctant to induct arjun.

But one thing i am sure of is, this beast has got one hell of an armour protection. and secondly it has leatheal fire power, but there has been some problems with its accuracy in the past. If that has been rectified, I think Arjun has a fair chance of finding its place in IA, no metter they like it or not, it will be very hard for them to find grounds for its rejection.



adios

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## AVIAN

More then Arjun, I am highly getting worried about T-90 in this latest test that is soon going to be conducted. Even if, Arjun failed this test then only it won't raise any eyebrows but what if T-90 failed this test, because T-90 form the core of IA's armoured regiments and it will be a big blow as they don't have any option of rejected hundreds of such tank already thriving in their inventories.


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## azfar

Ruag said:


> By that logic, the number of JF-17s purchased by PLAAF speaks volumes about the fighter jet's quality.



PLAAF have already better jets they dont need jf-17.


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## Creder

Eh not to piss anybody off here or something, but whats the history like on this tank so far ? From what I've read and i might be wrong on all accounts, that it hasn't been upto par with current IA requirements.

Is this test an effort to save this project ?


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## Iggy

Creder said:


> Eh not to piss anybody off here or something, but whats the history like on this tank so far ? From what I've read and i might be wrong on all accounts, that it hasn't been upto par with current IA requirements.
> 
> Is this test an effort to save this project ?



Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins

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## faithfulguy

Creder said:


> Eh not to piss anybody off here or something, but whats the history like on this tank so far ? From what I've read and i might be wrong on all accounts, that it hasn't been upto par with current IA requirements.
> 
> Is this test an effort to save this project ?



This is what I believe. A last ditch effort on deciding drain more dough into the ditch or to ditch it altogether


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## Creder

seiko said:


> Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins



But shouldn't it be the IA to make the final call ? I mean they're gonna be the ones using it. Do you think DRDO is just trying to make IA buy it or something


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## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins



The best tank is depending on who is in charging of the test. If IA is doing it, one tank will win. If DRDO is doing it, Arjun will win.


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## faithfulguy

A test like this should be done before IA decided to purchase all those T-90s. Won't it be too late now?

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## Creder

faithfulguy said:


> A test like this should be done before IA decided to purchase all those T-90s. Won't it be too late now?



One reason for doing it now could be to justify the minimum number of Arjun tanks that should be inducted by the IA to make this entire project atleast a bit feasible. And inorder to make the IA induct that minimum number of Arjun tanks they might be doing this test


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## TheBraveHeart

Creder said:


> But shouldn't it be the IA to make the final call ? I mean they're gonna be the ones using it. Do you think DRDO is just trying to make IA buy it or something



The problem is top brass of Indian Army which doesn't want the Arjun..for some unknown reasons, whereas the soldiers who have operated both the T-90 and Arjun say earlier- Arjun had some problems few yrs back which now have been rectified and it has a slight/marginal edge in an overall comparison to T-90....

The question is whom to believe?


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## Iggy

Creder said:


> But shouldn't it be the IA to make the final call ? I mean they're gonna be the ones using it. Do you think DRDO is just trying to make IA buy it or something



I think its mainly to compell defense ministry to pressurize IA to buy more Arjuns ..I am not sure may be some experts can help you..


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## SinoIndusFriendship

conworldus said:


> Arjun is a 60 ton heavy, while the T-90 is a 40 something medium tank. This isn't exactly fair.



You're right, it would not be fair to the Arjunk. The Arjunk has a range of about <300km before it suffers from engine failure, tracks falling apart, over heating, etc. Not to mention it's too heavy to ford any bridges, nor can it withstand extreme low or high temperatures. It's foreign engine, foreign barrel, foreign everything important aren't made to fit each other. T-90 has the clear advantage! Well then, continue with the show!!!


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## Creder

TheBraveHeart said:


> The problem is top brass of Indian Army which doesn't want the Arjun..for some unknown reasons, whereas the soldiers who have operated both the T-90 and Arjun say earlier- Arjun had some problems few yrs back which now have been rectified and it has a slight/marginal edge in an overall comparison to T-90....
> 
> The question is whom to believe?



Fair enough, either way i hope whatever decision is made it doesnt compromise national security.


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## TheBraveHeart

A few of u shud read these before coming to a conclusion....
*Broadsword: Battle-lines drawn on the Arjun tank: Armed Forces prefer Russian armour*

by Ajai Shukla
(Business Standard: 19th April 2008)

The battle-lines have been drawn. At stake is the future of one of India&#8217;s most prestigious defence products: the Arjun main battle tank (MBT). In its 29th report, which was tabled in parliament yesterday, Parliament&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence writes that it was &#8220;startled&#8221; to be told that the Arjun tank had performed poorly in winter trials conducted by the army, and that it was miles away from meeting the army&#8217;s requirements.

Business Standard has learned from three different members of the Standing Committee on Defence that it is more than &#8220;startled&#8221;; it is frankly disbelieving of the army&#8217;s deposition. In its last annual report for 2007-08, the committee was told by the MoD that the Arjun tank was:

* &#8220;A product unique in its class&#8221;, and &#8220;an improved system over the T-72.&#8221;
* &#8220;Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West&#8221;.
* &#8220;Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)&#8221;.
* &#8220;Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.&#8221;


After the army representative slammed the Arjun, the Standing Committee chairman, Balasaheb Vikhe Patil, as well as the Defence Secretary, and several other members agreed that the committee would formulate a clear policy on India&#8217;s tank of the future. Underlying this decision is the belief amongst most members of the Standing Committee that the army is biased against the Arjun tank, and in favour of continuing to use Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks. 

There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army&#8217;s deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army&#8217;s suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun&#8217;s performance. In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said, &#8220;The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.&#8221;

The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3000 kilometers, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank&#8217;s requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life. In fact, it is the Arjun&#8217;s developer, the Central Vehicle R&D Laboratory (CVRDE), Avadi, that has long demanded comparative trials, where the performance of five Arjuns would be gauged against five Russian T-90s and T-72s. The army has consistently sidestepped that invitation.

The army has also testified incorrectly to the Standing Committee about four engine failures during the recent AUCRT. In fact, sources closely associated with the trials say, the problems were with four gearboxes, manufactured by German company, Renk AG. A world leader in transmission systems, Renk representatives are already in Pokhran and Avadi, analysing and resolving the problem.

The army does not mention, but problems were also experienced with four hydro-pneumatic suspension units (HSUs), which leaked after the Arjuns had run 2000 kilometers. But the Arjun&#8217;s makers say 2000 kilometers is the service life of the suspension; normally they would have been replaced before the point at which they leaked.

Officers closely associated with the Arjun, as well as several members of the Standing Committee on Defence contrast the army&#8217;s approach to the Arjun with the navy&#8217;s acceptance of indigenous projects. They say the navy has achieved striking success in building its own warships, by associating itself with the project right from the design stage; warships are accepted into service and many hiccups overcome during their service lives. In contrast, the army is resisting accepting the Arjun until every last hiccup is resolved by the DRDO.

An application to interview the army&#8217;s Director General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) was approved by the MoD eight months ago. However, the DGMF has not granted an interview so far because of &#8220;scheduling problems.&#8221;

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## TheBraveHeart

*Broadsword: The Arjun tank acquires a growing fan club*

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th June 08

Indias own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. *Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert. During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the armys 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjuns endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.*

The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun. The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby. After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; *two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.*

Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On 29th June 2006, the commander of the elite 31 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. *Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away.* (see picture)

That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjuns firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed, The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.

But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for not conducting the trials properly. But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakurs brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.

*In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.*

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, *Ive spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment) who have been testing the tank I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, youve driven this tank and youve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And Ive found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.*

With new confidence, the Arjuns developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for comparative trials, in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the armys T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.

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## TheBraveHeart

*Broadsword: Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials*
Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th June 08

India&#8217;s Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. *The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army&#8217;s Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding &#8220;comparative trials*&#8221;, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90, are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.

But the army --- particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) --- is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials. Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.

DRDO sources say *the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver.* Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.

The DRDO&#8217;s fears are grounded in experience. On 28th July 2005,* Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, &#8220;The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army*.&#8221;

But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4900 crores. That despite the MoD&#8217;s admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.

*A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.*

But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, &#8220;The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) are inducted in the army.&#8221;

This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 08. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s. The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now the Arjun is ready, but the army is not.


*Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF&#8217;s argument that the Arjun is a dud; the MoD wants comparative trials too*. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, &#8220;The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert&#8230; and see which comes off best.&#8221;

Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better. But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical --- and therefore subjective --- dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.

The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun&#8217;s development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun. In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew --- something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank ---can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, &#8220;What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?&#8221;

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## TheBraveHeart

*LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: MBT Arjun's new Defensive Aid System ready for tests*
MBT Arjun's new Defensive Aid System ready for tests
The DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, has taken up the development of a Defensive Aids System for armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs) to enhance the survivability of tanks against anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats and to reduce the probability of detection by target acquisition systems.

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions. MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform. ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.

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## amarnath

faithfulguy said:


> The best tank is depending on who is in charging of the test. If IA is doing it, one tank will win. If DRDO is doing it, Arjun will win.



mate it dosent go by your logic, army in the presence of technical persons from DRDO do this.... So that you Can Come out with the best and reliable, now this is not a competition between t-90 and Arjun, This is just a test of how much reliable and good is Arjun when compared to T-90. As we know T-90 is surely one among the best in the world, So DRDO is confident that Arjun can now run a trial with T-90...


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## karan.1970

conworldus said:


> Arjun is a 60 ton heavy, while the T-90 is a 40 something medium tank. This isn't exactly fair.



not a boxing match, mate..


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## beckham

Now Arjun is in class of M1, Leopard, Challenger, LeClerc type of tanks and incorporates latest designing trends.I think Arjun is gonna be inducted in large numbers. 

*During the early trails The problems faced by Arjun were,*

_*1.Over weight.
2.Poor fire-control system (FCS)
3.Underpowered Engine and poor engine performance in deserts.
4.High internal temperature in desert environment.
5.Lack of support infrastructure(bridge laying equipment).
6.Lack of dedicate transport system.*_

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*But now all the problems have been sorted out.....

1.Contrary to popular misconception, its weight is more easily distributed along its base in comparision to T-90 and other tanks thus making it easier for the tank to be operated in desert conditions.

2. FCS has drastically been improved to operate at sustained internal temperature of 45'C. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army will have an all-digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter.

3.A new improved 1500 hp engine.LINK

4.Tank has been incorporated with inbuilt air conditioning system thus ensuring optimal temperature for electronics and systems to work.

5.Induction of Sarvatra (MLC-70 type bridging equipment).

6.Induction of BFAT (military acronym for heavy flat cars used by railways for transports).*

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## mrwarrior006

unless and untill army inducts it in huge numbers this project will be considered waste


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## lockh33d

mrwarrior006 said:


> unless and untill army inducts it in huge numbers this project will be considered waste



Hence why the army is inducting it in huge numbers, a make believe for the public into thinking it's a success when it's the opposite. Afterall, how is it so hard developing a tank to begin with? If you got the tech to invent a car and a gun, you're on the right track to designing a tank.

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## xuxu1457

seiko said:


> I think its mainly to compell defense ministry to pressurize IA to buy more Arjuns ..I am not sure may be some experts can help you..



It will let many soldiers go die and loss a war to pressurize IA to buy more unreliable Arjuns

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## Iggy

xuxu1457 said:


> It will let many soldiers go die and loss a war to pressurize IA to buy more unreliable Arjuns



Dude you didnt get me..the whole idea of comparitive trail was to show that Arjun is same league as T90 or better than it..if that purpose is fullfilled then whats the problem is buying Arjun?


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## TheBraveHeart

xuxu1457 said:


> It will let many soldiers go die and loss a war to pressurize IA to buy more* unreliable Arjuns*



Would u care to explain what makes Arjun unreliable....

the way u speak I guess u r a military professional and know more than the DRDO people who designed and modified it or the army people who deploy/use it... 

Also make sure u go through previous posts and come out with genuine problems which have not been already answered/taken care off...

Just because it carries a 'Made in India' tag the tank is being targeted, had it been any other western it would have been called grand success!!

Same was done with Arihant sub.. but no one seems to laugh at Royal navys Astute class or type 45 destroyers..

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Hence why the army is inducting it in huge numbers, a make believe for the public into thinking it's a success when it's the opposite. Afterall, how is it so hard developing a tank to begin with? If you got the tech to invent a car and a gun, you're on the right track to designing a tank.



Who said its the opposite??you were in the development of that Tank??The DRDO officials are fully confident of the Tank and let them make the comparitive trails..if Arjun is better than T-90 in comparison then its good for India and DRDO..other wise we will use T-90's ..

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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Dude you didnt get me..the whole idea of comparitive trail was to show that Arjun is same league as T90 or better than it..if that purpose is fullfilled then whats the problem is buying Arjun?



No, no, no! Another reason, and a major reason, that Arjuns are being mass produced is that it gives India a hands on approach of designing its own equipment, so that it has confidence in itself and can continue upgrading and tweaking it so that in the end, it does eventually best other tanks in India's inventory. However, as of now, there are no promises that this Arjun proves anywhere near its paper specs.

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## beckham

lockh33d said:


> No, no, no! Another reason, and a major reason, that Arjuns are being mass produced is that it gives India a hands on approach of designing its own equipment, so that it has confidence in itself and can continue upgrading and tweaking it so that in the end, it does eventually best other tanks in India's inventory. However, as of now, there are no promises that this Arjun proves anywhere near its paper specs.



So, what are you trying to say ??


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> No, no, no! Another reason, and a major reason, that Arjuns are being mass produced is that it gives India a hands on approach of designing its own equipment, so that it has confidence in itself and can continue upgrading and tweaking it so that in the end, it does eventually best other tanks in India's inventory. However,* as of now, there are no promises that this Arjun proves anywhere near its paper specs.*



Please read the links brave heart posted above..the whole comparitive trial is to proove that Arjun is a world class tank..lets wait till the trial is over then criticize it ..


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## TheBraveHeart

Here is additional info from wiki...

A later report published by the Government of India during the induction ceremony of the Arjun tank, *confirms the success of the trial*.* "An independent evaluation of the tank by a reputed tank manufacturer found that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics."[45]*

*DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the Arjun*, *following attempts to "sabotage" its engine*. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure". *Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities.*

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## lockh33d

beckham said:


> So, what are you trying to say ??



For you, learn English in greater depth.

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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> Here is additional info from wiki...
> 
> A later report published by the Government of India during the induction ceremony of the Arjun tank, *confirms the success of the trial*.* "An independent evaluation of the tank by a reputed tank manufacturer found that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics."[45]*
> 
> *DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the Arjun*, *following attempts to "sabotage" its engine*. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure". *Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities.*



Where in that extract does it say it matches up with the T-90 or it's lil' brother?

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Where in that extract does it say it matches up with the T-90 or it's lil' brother?



Dude are you having some problems is grasping things around here??Dude the race was to become India's main battle tank..and according to the IA Arjun failed in it and it opted T-90's.so DRDO officials challenged IA for a comparison trials with Arjun and T series tanks..and let them know which one is better..And DRDO officials have full confidence in their Arjun Tank ..and after the comparison we will know for sure which one is better ..

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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Please read the links brave heart posted above..the whole comparitive trial is to proove that Arjun is a world class tank..lets wait till the trial is over then criticize it ..



Haha, hilarious! Having 1.5K bhp @ ~60t is world class now? Basically, if I integrate 3 twin turbos and add a few weigts to my car+throw in a few machines guns, my car would become a world class tank too? Buddy, it's not about the paper specs, but rather about the secret features which it holds. Why is the M1 such a featured tank? Answer? It's depleted U armor, capable of fending off multiple 125's.

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## TheBraveHeart

lockh33d said:


> Where in that extract does it say it matches up with the T-90 or it's lil' brother?



what are u trying to do here other than troll....can't u see the articles posted earlier and specifications mentioned by becham?

or shud I highlight them for u ?...wait a sec...will do so...if u hv problems...


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Dude are you having some problems is grasping things around here??Dude the race was to become India's main battle tank..and according to the IA Arjun failed in it and it opted T-90's.so DRDO officials challenged IA for a comparison trials with Arjun and T series tanks..and let them know which one is better..And DRDO officials have full confidence in their Arjun Tank ..and after the comparison we will know for sure which one is better ..



I think you are. He quote MY POST, meaning he had a problem with interpreting it-It was about Arjun vs. T-90, and the characteristic comparisons.

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Haha, hilarious! Having 1.5K bhp @ ~60t is world class now? Basically, if I integrate 3 twin turbos and add a few weigts to my car+throw in a few machines guns, my car would become a world class tank too? Buddy, it's not about the paper specs, but rather about the secret features which it holds. Why is the M1 such a featured tank? Answer? It's depleted U armor, capable of fending off multiple 125's.



Lock33d i dont have any speciality in Tanks or Aircrafts..but I am sure that DRDO is not foolish enough to have a comparative trial with a world class Tank if they dont think Arjun dont have a chance ..lets wait for the results and then start bashing...


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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> what are u trying to do here other than troll....can't u see the articles posted earlier and specifications mentioned by becham?
> 
> or shud I highlight them for u ?...wait a sec...will do so...if u hv problems...



No, the argument deviated from the original course after someone mentioned the Arjun to be better than the T90, and I just said there is inconclusive evidence to prove that, and at the moment, the T-90 is still better. Trolling?

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## beckham

*One of the above poster trolls in all the Arjun related thread.

guess who ??*

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> I think you are. He quote MY POST, meaning he had a problem with interpreting it-It was about Arjun vs. T-90, and the characteristic comparisons.



Where did he quote your post?he was pointing out why the Arjun failed when it was tested earlier


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> No, the argument deviated from the original course after someone mentioned the Arjun to be better than the T90, and I just said there is inconclusive evidence to prove that, and at the moment, the T-90 is still better. Trolling?



Dude we were saying that DRDO wanted to proove that Arjun can match T series tank or better than T series..thats what this comparitive trial is all about ..


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## Khajur

I honestly believe that in anpartial dual Arjun MBT take on T-90 and beat it on any choosen day.

But indian Army suffers from this huge had this penchant for foreign maal for some obivious reasons.

When i heard Army chief saying that indian armoured corp is night blind...i felt like if i were the defende minister i would asked for dismissal of all generals in the armoured corp of the indian army.Its ******* ridiculous.


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Lock33d i dont have any speciality in Tanks or Aircrafts..but I am sure that DRDO is not foolish enough to have a comparative trial with a world class Tank if they dont think Arjun dont have a chance ..lets wait for the results and then start bashing...



Even that would be unfortunately not enough. For the stereotypical "comparative trial," it only consists of a fire control test and an engine run. However, it would require an actual combat to prove the worthiness of this tank so it won't be soon the Arjun becomes a world class tank.

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Even that would be unfortunately not enough. For the stereotypical "comparative trial," it only consists of a fire control test and an engine run. However, it *would require an actual combat to prove the worthiness of this tank so it won't be soon the Arjun becomes a world class tank*.



in that logic Chinese tanks are also not world class nor Pakistanis  ..you agree with it??

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## xuxu1457

TheBraveHeart said:


> Would u care to explain what makes Arjun unreliable....
> 
> the way u speak I guess u r a military professional and know more than the DRDO people who designed and modified it or the army people who deploy/use it...
> 
> Also make sure u go through previous posts and come out with genuine problems which have not been already answered/taken care off...
> 
> Just because it carries a 'Made in India' tag the tank is being targeted, had it been any other western it would have been called grand success!!
> 
> Same was done with Arihant sub.. but no one seems to laugh at Royal navys Astute class or type 45 destroyers..



No,No,No,I also hope the Arjun can fit the military request,but all above is said by the designer and producer,it should be repeated tested by army,it is used by army and only the army can decide this.

But when I was a child,I heard the Arjun tank,and now 36 years has past since 1974,In the world tank has gone through several generations.Many times the DRDO gave people a big Balloon and be punctured soon,so it is difficult to believe the DRDO

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## lockh33d

beckham said:


> *One of the above poster trolls in all the Arjun related thread.
> 
> guess who ??*



If the world thinks like you, we'd all be dead. If Thomas Alva Edison didn't poke holes at his own observations, the light bumb would never have been designed out of tungsten and we'd still be living on candles today. So if you call poking holes at other things trolling, then you shouldn't be here. Common ground is what's necessary for things to progress in this world.

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## Iggy

Khajur said:


> I honestly believe that in anpartial dual Arjun MBT take on T-90 and beat it on any choosen day.
> 
> But indian Army suffers from this huge had this penchant for foreign maal for some obivious reasons.
> 
> When i heard Army chief saying that indian armoured corp is night blind...i felt like if i were the defende minister i would asked for dismissal of all generals in the armoured corp of the indian army.Its ******* ridiculous.



Thank god you are not..otherwise we could have a shortage of generals in Indian Army


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Dude we were saying that DRDO wanted to proove that Arjun can match T series tank or better than T series..thats what this comparitive trial is all about ..



And I was simply listing my point of view on that, what's wrong?

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## Storm Force

The Indian military total failure to support indengious Arjun & LCA is a joke. 

Both the Arjun & the LCA are modern on paper then the russian counterparts ie T90 & MIG21/MIG29. 

Yet the Army & the Air force want Russian or other imported hardware. 

TAKE A LEAF OUT OF PAKISTANS book. 

JF17 THUNDER is clearly inferior to F16/52 and certainly no match for SU30MKI yet the PAF are stil happy to induct it appears and steadily improve. 

LOOK AT THE INDIAN NAVY building frigates destroyers and now nuke subs and a new 40k tonne carrier. 

THE ARMY & AIR FORCE are letting india,s indengious efforts down.

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## Iggy

xuxu1457 said:


> No,No,No,I also hope the Arjun can fit the military request,but all above is said by the designer and producer,it should be repeated tested by army,it is used by army and only the army can decide this.
> 
> But when I was a child,I heard the Arjun tank,and now 36 years has past since 1974,In the world tank has gone through several generations.Many times the DRDO gave people a big Balloon and be punctured soon,so it is difficult to believe the DRDO




Had satisfaction with your sick jokes?now can we get back to the topic..BTW try to find some other jokes too..you are saying it in every thread ..kind of boring listening to it every time..keep working on it..


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> in that logic Chinese tanks are also not world class nor Pakistanis  ..you agree with it??



Of course not, Chinese tanks are just something China has to stand up as a counter to Western designs, either politically or militarily to threaten other nations. Only combat effective designs in my books are the M1 and the Challengers Series, though I must admit even the Challengers are crap, seeing that that constantly get knocked out after 1 RPG round.

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> And I was simply listing my point of view on that, what's wrong?



Your listing of PoV has no problem but just grasp what we are saying here and discuss on the topic..you are arguing with some thing which you imagined we are saying

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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Your listing of PoV has no problem but just grasp what we are saying here and discuss on the topic..you are arguing with some thing which you imagined we are saying



Arjun vs. T-90, that's the guts of it isn't it? Obviously, paper specs only, nothing rock solid.

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Arjun vs. T-90, that's the guts of it isn't it? Obviously, facts only, nothing rock solid.



Arjun V/s T-90 field trial soon..thats the guts ..and you are already arguing like Arjun lost the trials


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Arjun V/s T-90 field trial soon..thats the guts ..and you are already arguing like Arjun lost the trials



lol, you're not reading properly this time. I said the trials are just trials. They won't prove that the Arjun is better, because it requires real combat scenarios to achieve that status. In the meantime, T-90 is a world class tank, the Arjun is not, hence the former is still superior to the latter.

Logical, ain't it?


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## mrwarrior006

one thing is for sure if tests are conducted and if arjun performs it 90%specs it will be inducted

and instead buying t90 arjun will be concentrated


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## TheBraveHeart

xuxu1457 said:


> No,No,No,I also hope the Arjun can fit the military request,but *all above is said by the designer and producer,it should be repeated tested by army,it is used by army and only the army can decide this.*
> 
> But when I was a child,I heard the Arjun tank,and now 36 years has past since 1974,In the world tank has gone through several generations.Many times the DRDO gave people a big Balloon and be punctured soon,so it is difficult to believe the DRDO



DRDO may have had repeated failures in the past..but does that mean it would never succeed ...?? or shud it give up just bcoz the army generals for selfish reasons/egoism doesnt want to accept a fair trial??

Also u should read the articles posted where its quite clear the problem is not the tanks or for that matter the soldiers(who are more than happy with Arjuns) but its mentality of the top brass of army..even the MOD is supporting Arjun rigidly...

A sincere request, before making any comments like soldiers getting killed, try reading a few facts atleast from wiki...(not always true but mostly correct)


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## xuxu1457

Storm Force said:


> The Indian military total failure to support indengious Arjun & LCA is a joke.
> 
> Both the Arjun & the LCA are modern on paper then the russian counterparts ie T90 & MIG21/MIG29.
> 
> Yet the Army & the Air force want Russian or other imported hardware.
> 
> TAKE A LEAF OUT OF PAKISTANS book.
> 
> JF17 THUNDER is clearly inferior to F16/52 and certainly no match for SU30MKI yet the PAF are stil happy to induct it appears and steadily improve.
> 
> LOOK AT THE INDIAN NAVY building frigates destroyers and now nuke subs and a new 40k tonne carrier.
> 
> THE ARMY & AIR FORCE are letting india,s indengious efforts down.



*stil happy to induct it appears and steadily improve. *
right,what I mean is to steadily improve,one step after another


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> lol, you're not reading properly this time. I said the trials are just trials. They won't prove that the Arjun is better, because it requires real combat scenarios to achieve that status. In the meantime, T-90 is a world class tank, the Arjun is not, hence the former is still superior to the latter.
> 
> Logical, ain't it?



Dude T90 dont have any real combat experience under its belt..share some few where T90 engaged in Tank war with any other Tanks? then how come you be sure that T-90 is better than Arjun with out any comparitive fair trail??

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## TheBraveHeart

lockh33d said:


> lol, you're not reading properly this time. I said the trials are just trials. They won't prove that the Arjun is better, because it requires real combat scenarios to achieve that status. In the meantime, T-90 is a world class tank, the Arjun is not, hence the former is still superior to the latter.
> 
> Logical, ain't it?


 
So what do u suggest should the IA do?? throw the Arjun project in a bin and import T-90 just coz Arjun hasnt been battle proven....? 

Similar thing can be said about ur F-22's which are not battle proven ..just some simulations ...


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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> DRDO may have had repeated failures in the past..but does that mean it would never succeed ...?? or shud it give up just bcoz the army generals for selfish reasons/egoism doesnt want to accept a fair trial??
> 
> Also u should read the articles posted where its quite clear the problem is not the tanks or for that matter the soldiers(who are more than happy with Arjuns) but its mentality of the top brass of army..even the MOD is supporting Arjun rigidly...
> 
> A sincere request, before making any comments like soldiers getting killed, try reading a few facts atleast from wiki...(not always true but mostly correct)



Lol, I hope you take the following joke with a light heart, it's not made to offend.

"Some say that Alva Edison failed 99x whilst finding the right conductive material for his light bulb. Seeing the striking similarities between Edison and Indian efforts in producing the Arjun, does this mean that India has to produce 99 bad prototypes of the Arjun?"


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## Iggy

xuxu1457 said:


> *stil happy to induct it appears and steadily improve. *
> right,what I mean is to steadily improve,one step after another



Dude are you here to troll ??where did it say its going to induct Arjun??they are only doing the comparitive trials..


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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> So what do u suggest should the IA do?? through the Arjun project in a bin and import T-90 just coz Arjun hasnt been battle proven....?
> 
> Similar thing can be said about ur F-22's which are not battle proven ..just some simulations ...



If you scroll up, I wrote somewhere that India is heading off in the right direction. With time, the Arjun will prove itself to be a marvelous piece of work after numerous tweakings etc.

True the F-22 hasn't met actual warfare scenarios, however, what's wrong with simulations. All fluid behavior and dynamics of the jet has been taken account of, so things would go similarly, if not exactly the same in real life. Now let me ask, is there a simulator for the Arjun which it passed in?


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## xuxu1457

TheBraveHeart said:


> DRDO may have had repeated failures in the past..but does that mean it would never succeed ...?? or shud it give up just bcoz the army generals for selfish reasons/egoism doesnt want to accept a fair trial??
> 
> Also u should read the articles posted where its quite clear the problem is not the tanks or for that matter the soldiers(who are more than happy with Arjuns) but its mentality of the top brass of army..even the MOD is supporting Arjun rigidly...
> 
> A sincere request, before making any comments like soldiers getting killed, try reading a few facts atleast from wiki...(not always true but mostly correct)



I just mean that no one can make sure this before the test,and personally I think only one designer org&#65288; DRDO&#65289;is harmful for Indian denfence

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## Iggy

xuxu1457 said:


> I just mean that no one can make sure this before the test,and personally I think only one designer org&#65288; DRDO&#65289;is harmful for Indian denfence



Dude thats what the comparitive trial is all about?to determine which one is better..just wait till the trials is over...and BTW how many designer organisation China have..no trolling i dont know..just share some light on it ..thanks in advance


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Dude thats what the comparitive trial is all about?to determine which one is better..just wait till the trials is over...and BTW how many designer organisation China have..no trolling i dont know..just share some light on it ..thanks in advance



A trial is not going to do anything except prove that the gun fires properly, and at the right initial velocity, that the engines can run for so long without any major breakdowns, and that the electronics work. It most definitely is not going to give the Arjun the recognition and credibility that the M1 gets for notoriously taking down two T-72's simultaneously or withstanding 125's from a point blank distance.


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## sancho

beckham said:


>


Thanks for these infos, but are these cost figures correct? If yes, how come that the Arjun is only $500 000 less expensive than the Leopard 2, or the Leclerc tank? European arms normally are pretty expensive and such a slight difference will be a problem for Arjun exports.

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## Veer

xuxu1457 said:


> No,No,No,I also hope the Arjun can fit the military request,but all above is said by the designer and producer,it should be repeated tested by army,it is used by army and only the army can decide this.
> 
> But when I was a child,I heard the Arjun tank,and now 36 years has past since 1974,In the world tank has gone through several generations.Many times the DRDO gave people a big Balloon and be punctured soon,so it is difficult to believe the DRDO



*DRDO continues to develop sophisticated and advance system for Arjun.* Following is a news item.

*DRDO to make indigenous Arjun tank more hi-tech*

Chennai, Feb 25 (IANS) The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will be developing around *12 futuristic systems in five years for incorporation into Indias first indigenously built Arjun main battle tank (MBT)*, an official said here Wednesday.The futuristic technology systems include automatic target tracking, defensive aids, laser warning, tank simulator systems. We are looking at developing robotic vehicles that would work on tele-link, R. Jayakumar, associate director of the DRDOs Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), told reporters.

The organisation also plans to automate the tracking of targets.

With the firing and mobility powers of the tank being satisfactory, the focus is now on making the vehicle invisible to the enemy through development of detection avoidance and laser warning systems, said Jayakumar.

After undergoing simulator training, a soldier can comfortably operate the vehicle, said Jayakumar.

The research organisation has transferred the technology to the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi town.

More than 10,000 drawings running into around 2,000 pages have been passed on to the vehicle manufacturer, Sundaresh said.

Asked about the delays in developing the tank, officials said the army froze its specifications only in November 1985.

*The tank was unveiled in 1995. It takes at least 10 years for any country to develop a battle tank from the scratch. The army put the pre-production tanks (15 units) to rigorous tests totalling more than 70,000 km and fired over 7,000 rounds. No other tank would have undergone such tests, said Jayakumar.*


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## TheBraveHeart

lockh33d said:


> If you scroll up, I wrote somewhere that India is heading off in the right direction. With time, the Arjun will prove itself to be a marvelous piece of work after numerous tweakings etc.
> 
> True the F-22 hasn't met actual warfare scenarios, however, what's wrong with simulations. All fluid behavior and dynamics of the jet has been taken account of, *so things would go similarly, if not exactly the same in real life*. *Now let me ask, is there a simulator for the Arjun which it passed in*?



Thats the point....in one of the trials and Independent evaluation(dont remember german/ israeli) the Arjun came out trumps...and was accepted to be superior by all except the top brass of army...
so they have a retrial and a final one, so that all apprehensions are cleared once and for all..... what is wrong with that and why are u arguing that the trial wont make it world class,etc..atleast if it gives better results/even results we can have both of them working parallelly... which will reduce the dependence on Russia in future..

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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> Thats the point....in one of the trials and Independent evaluation(dont remember german/ israeli) the Arjun came out trumps...and was accepted to be superior by all except the top brass of army...
> so they have a retrial and a final one, so that all apprehensions are cleared once and for all..... what is wrong with that and why are u arguing that the trial wont make it world class,etc..atleast if it gives better results/even results we can have both of them working parallelly... which will reduce the dependence on Russia in future..



Your Arjun went through trials, our F-22's went through combat simulations. There is a heap of difference between the two, buddy.


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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> Thats the point....in one of the trials and Independent evaluation(dont remember german/ israeli) the Arjun came out trumps...and was accepted to be superior by all except the top brass of army...
> so they have a retrial and a final one, so that all apprehensions are cleared once and for all..... what is wrong with that and why are u arguing that the trial wont make it world class,etc..atleast if it gives better results/even results we can have both of them working parallelly... which will reduce the dependence on Russia in future..



Why? Here's why:

A trial is not going to do anything except prove that the gun fires properly, and at the right initial velocity, that the engines can run for so long without any major breakdowns, and that the electronics work. It most definitely is not going to give the Arjun the recognition and credibility that the M1 gets for notoriously taking down two T-72's simultaneously or withstanding 125's from a point blank distance.


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## Veer

lockh33d said:


> If you scroll up, I wrote somewhere that India is heading off in the right direction. With time, the Arjun will prove itself to be a marvelous piece of work after numerous tweakings etc.
> 
> True the F-22 hasn't met actual warfare scenarios, however, what's wrong with simulations. All fluid behavior and dynamics of the jet has been taken account of, so things would go similarly, if not exactly the same in real life. *Now let me ask, is there a simulator for the Arjun* which it passed in?



*Simulators for Arjun Main Battle Tank produced*

The simulators have been designed to impart cost effective and exhaustive training for the use of Arjun tanks, whose mass production is already in progress, top DRDO officials said.

*As a novel method away from world's leading tank makers, the Avadi-based establishment instead of a single simulator has developed a chain of three simulators to make gunner familiar to complex technology in the indigenous MBT.*

The first of the three simulators meant to impart classroom gunnery training aims at teaching the gunners various controls and switches of tank gunnery operations with the help of simple mouse click.

The second simulator imparts hands on experience on operation procedure of the tanks integrated fire control system and has jointly been produced by CVRDE and Bangalore-based CASSA company.

The third simulator produced gives the gunner full-fledged advanced procedural, laying, tracking and firing skills.

*The Avadi company had produced the simulators in record 15 months *and two such systems have already been commissioned, with the user training carried out on personnel of 43 armoured regiment.

*"Their feedback has been received and incorporated in the new simulators,"* officials said.

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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> A trial is not going to do anything except prove that the gun fires properly, and at the right initial velocity, that the engines can run for so long without any major breakdowns, and that the electronics work. It most definitely is not going to give the Arjun the recognition and credibility that the M1 gets for notoriously taking down two T-72's simultaneously or withstanding 125's from a point blank distance.



Arjun already withstood a point blank shot from T-72 mate..is that count??BTW you said T-90 is a world class tank and Arjun is not because its not proove itself in a real combat situation..but you didnt answer me where did T-90 proove itself in a real combat tank war ?

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## lockh33d

Veer said:


> *Simulators for Arjun Main Battle Tank produced*
> 
> The simulators have been designed to impart cost effective and exhaustive training for the use of Arjun tanks, whose mass production is already in progress, top DRDO officials said.
> 
> *As a novel method away from world's leading tank makers, the Avadi-based establishment instead of a single simulator has developed a chain of three simulators to make gunner familiar to complex technology in the indigenous MBT.*
> 
> The first of the three simulators meant to impart classroom gunnery training aims at teaching the gunners various controls and switches of tank gunnery operations with the help of simple mouse click.
> 
> The second simulator imparts hands on experience on operation procedure of the tanks integrated fire control system and has jointly been produced by CVRDE and Bangalore-based CASSA company.
> 
> The third simulator produced gives the gunner full-fledged advanced procedural, laying, tracking and firing skills.
> 
> *The Avadi company had produced the simulators in record 15 months *and two such systems have already been commissioned, with the user training carried out on personnel of 43 armoured regiment.
> 
> *"Their feedback has been received and incorporated in the new simulators,"* officials said.



And have you put your simulators to good use? Put them up against much foes and proved decisive victories as of late?


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Your Arjun went through trials, our F-22's went through combat simulations. There is a heap of difference between the two, buddy.



Funny some of your countrymens were bragging that simulations dont count..is it can change according to your needs?


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Arjun already withstood a point blank shot from T-72 mate..is that count??BTW you said T-90 is a world class tank and Arjun is not because its not proove itself in a real combat situation..but you didnt answer me where did T-90 proove itself in a real combat tank war ?



-Withstood but heavily damaged+immobilized?

-T-90 was used in the Georgian war only two years ago, add to the fact that it was constantly deployed to fend off Cherneyans (Need Spell check on that). 

As a side note, I hate Russians, no love for the T-90 from me.


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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Funny some of your countrymens were bragging that simulations dont count..is it can change according to your needs?



Mind sharing around where you read that then?

Goodbye for the night.


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## xuxu1457

lockh33d said:


> Why? Here's why:
> 
> A trial is not going to do anything except prove that the gun fires properly, and at the right initial velocity, that the engines can run for so long without any major breakdowns, and that the electronics work. It most definitely is not going to give the Arjun the recognition and credibility that the M1 gets for notoriously taking down two T-72's simultaneously or withstanding 125's from a point blank distance.



Why they have so many confidence?I am confused,byebye too


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## TheBraveHeart

lockh33d said:


> -Withstood but heavily damaged+immobilized?
> 
> -T-90 was used in the Georgian war only two years ago, add to the fact that it was constantly deployed to fend off Cherneyans (Need Spell check on that).
> 
> As a side note, I hate Russians, no love for the T-90 from me.



Atleast wiki doesn't say so..better provide proof of ur claim..
*
2008 South Ossetia war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> -Withstood but heavily damaged+immobilized?
> 
> -T-90 was used in the Georgian war only two years ago, add to the fact that it was constantly deployed to fend off Cherneyans (Need Spell check on that).
> 
> As a side note, I hate Russians, no love for the T-90 from me.



No real tank war they faced in both this situations dude..still you are saying its world class  but arguing Arjun is not ..


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## ambidex

beckham said:


> *One of the above poster trolls in all the Arjun related thread.
> 
> guess who ??*



He is trying to sooth himself actually. He think bashing Arjun will make it ineffectual when he will open its flood gates during war.

Arjun is a beast and a separate platform. India is dealing with two best tanks where T-90 is more reliable due to its history. Arjun is an ultra modern tank in an effort to prove its point. Of Course IA love T-90 but at the end of the day we be having surplus machines running over enemy CP.


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Mind sharing around where you read that then?
> 
> Goodbye for the night.



Just look at any thread regarding India and China you can see plenty of it ..good nytes


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## karan.1970

lockh33d said:


> No, no, no! Another reason, and a major reason, that Arjuns are being mass produced is that it gives India a hands on approach of designing its own equipment, so that it has confidence in itself and can continue upgrading and tweaking it so that in the end, it does eventually best other tanks in India's inventory. However, as of now, there are no promises that this Arjun proves anywhere near its paper specs.



Very true on the necessity of hands on approach of indegenous design. Which is even more critical as India modifies/manufactures INdia specific T-90s

However on the second part, I think its looking promising now with the recent noises coming out of the armed forces which have been the staunchest supporter of T-90 imports over Arjun. 

Even if Arjun underperforms the T90 by a small margin, its still worth while continuing with the line as its the step in the right direction. Consider this. The cost of Arjun program till date has been close to $80 million (saw the figure in this thread only), which seems like a large number but compare this with approx $ 350 million that Tata's invested in designing and productionizing the Nano (a 650 cc car). Ranbaxy (a medium pharma company in india) spends more than that in *a single year *on its R&D. This is also less than the cost of constructing 25 km (16 miles) of expressway in india. 

Well here's looking forward to a repeat of Mahabharta (Arjun vs Bhishma) with the same results..

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## asim.mian10

al least indian army chief admit their night war capabilties is just 30% while pak is 80% AND CHINA IS 100%-SO WATS BENIF OF ARJUN???????


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> No, no, no! Another reason, and a major reason, that Arjuns are being mass produced is that it gives India a hands on approach of designing its own equipment, so that it has confidence in itself and can continue upgrading and tweaking it so that in the end, it does eventually best other tanks in India's inventory. However, as of now, there are no promises that this Arjun proves anywhere near its paper specs.



That's why DRDO bought in a 3rd party audit team to examine and evaluate the tank. The IA claims were put to the test and the the audit commission found there was nothing wrong with the tank, and that it met all design requirements.



> * Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.*



PIB Press Release

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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Haha, hilarious! Having 1.5K bhp @ ~60t is world class now? Basically, if I integrate 3 twin turbos and add a few weigts to my car+throw in a few machines guns, my car would become a world class tank too? Buddy, it's not about the paper specs, but rather about the secret features which it holds. Why is the M1 such a featured tank? Answer? It's depleted U armor, capable of fending off multiple 125's.



So if it cant trump American Tech it should be cast aside is that it.


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## Sravan

asim.mian10 said:


> al least indian army chief admit their night war capabilties is just 30% while pak is 80% AND CHINA IS 100%-SO WATS BENIF OF ARJUN???????



^^^^^^^
well i believe IGNORANCE IS BLISS now


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Even that would be unfortunately not enough. For the stereotypical "comparative trial," it only consists of a fire control test and an engine run. However, it would require an actual combat to prove the worthiness of this tank so it won't be soon the Arjun becomes a world class tank.



The trial is more complicated then just that. Its not about what tank is better.

But which tank best fulfills the army's retirements.

For example the IA has overheating problems with both the Arjun and T-90 in the rajastan desert.

While DRDO made specialized cooling systems for effected systems.

the Russians installed an Air conditioners in the T-90 and said that would do the trick.

Now the Russians are known for their simple solutions, so there system may very well be effective.

But that's what these trials are to find out.

Which on of these tanks can best fit the requirements of the army.



Storm Force said:


> The Indian military total failure to support indengious Arjun & LCA is a joke.
> 
> Both the Arjun & the LCA are modern on paper then the russian counterparts ie T90 & MIG21/MIG29.
> 
> Yet the Army & the Air force want Russian or other imported hardware.
> 
> TAKE A LEAF OUT OF PAKISTANS book.
> 
> JF17 THUNDER is clearly inferior to F16/52 and certainly no match for SU30MKI yet the PAF are stil happy to induct it appears and steadily improve.
> 
> LOOK AT THE INDIAN NAVY building frigates destroyers and now nuke subs and a new 40k tonne carrier.
> 
> THE ARMY & AIR FORCE are letting india,s indengious efforts down.



Don't drag the IAF down to the corrupt hole of the IA.

They have neglected in the past. But they fully support domestic industry today. taking an active participation in development programs. 

Even supporting RnD in ISRO.

Once they get rid of the old mig fleets, they can focus more in Domestic.



lockh33d said:


> Arjun vs. T-90, that's the guts of it isn't it? Obviously, paper specs only, nothing rock solid.



It's not about what is better.

Its about which tank suits the Indian Army's requirements best.

It may be T-90 vs Arjun but the battle is not for, I am better title.

But which tank works better for IA.




lockh33d said:


> And have you put your simulators to good use? Put them up against much foes and proved decisive victories as of late?



That's what this trial is to decide the IA needs a tank that meets its requirements best. Which is that T-90 or Arjun

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## Honor

Let's see how many Arjun tank will IA purchase since so many positive comments by Indian.

I believe IA will give us a indirect answer for Arjun performance.


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## Iggy

Honor said:


> Let's see how many Arjun tank will IA purchase since so many positive comments by Indian.
> 
> I believe IA will give us a indirect answer for Arjun performance.



Its all decide only after the field trials..if Arjun fails then DRDO guy has to get back to their labs and make another attempt to devalop it further and rectify the faults


----------



## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Its all decide only after the field trials..if Arjun fails then DRDO guy has to get back to their labs and make another attempt to devalop it further and rectify the faults



In another word, continue extend the 38 years another year or so? MY feeling is that if it take 38 years to build a tank and it can't be done. 50-60 years won't make much of a difference. It need a redesign. Why won't India save the design money and just buy more T-90 and use the money else where if Arjun turn out to be a flop. 

The engineers will realize what get them the job security.


----------



## Ingis

faithfulguy said:


> In another word, continue extend the 38 years another year or so? MY feeling is that if it take 38 years to build a tank and it can't be done. 50-60 years won't make much of a difference. It need a redesign. Why won't India save the design money and just buy more T-90 and use the money else where if Arjun turn out to be a flop.
> 
> The engineers will realize what get them the job security.



Read post#3. 

India's next tank will be a joint development with Russia.


----------



## Trisonics

faithfulguy said:


> In another word, continue extend the 38 years another year or so? MY feeling is that if it take 38 years to build a tank and it can't be done. 50-60 years won't make much of a difference. It need a redesign. Why won't India save the design money and just buy more T-90 and use the money else where if Arjun turn out to be a flop.
> 
> The engineers will realize what get them the job security.



Good comment!! Let me explain:

This is what India is fighting today, just because it took India to get a tank out in so many years doesn't mean the product is bad, its the *process* that is bad. For A country riddled with corruption, and a media that doesn't fear from throwing opinions, its only natural.

What is significant here, is a process that is evolving that may smack Army in the face and show the public what it is up to. If DRDO was not confident they have produced a good product, they wouldn't dare to field this trial. Include its reputation in the media and then you would realize how confident they are. 

What if the media in India was not allowed to make one single comment about this tank? would you still see it the same way? 

For people who keep thinking it can't cross the border and kill, well, they are living in a fool's paradise !!!!!!!

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## lockh33d

TheBraveHeart said:


> Atleast wiki doesn't say so..better provide proof of ur claim..
> *
> 2008 South Ossetia war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*



Article says "most" of the tanks, some 60% were T-72's-The remaining? However, if you surf online for a bit or watch news 3/2 years old, you'd see T-90's driving around the streets of Georgia.



seiko said:


> No real tank war they faced in both this situations dude..still you are saying its world class  but arguing Arjun is not ..



Come again?



ambidex said:


> He is trying to sooth himself actually. He think bashing Arjun will make it ineffectual when he will open its flood gates during war.
> 
> Arjun is a beast and a separate platform. India is dealing with two best tanks where T-90 is more reliable due to its history. Arjun is an ultra modern tank in an effort to prove its point. Of Course IA love T-90 but at the end of the day we be having surplus machines running over enemy CP.



Whatever dude, whatever. If you don't want to take in concrete fact, then it's your choice what you want to believe. If you want to think that the Arjun surpasses the Abrams, then go fall into your fantasy dream.



gogbot said:


> So if it cant trump American Tech it should be cast aside is that it.



So if it can't trump Western tech, it still makes the tank world class, is that it?



gogbot said:


> The trial is more complicated then just that. Its not about what tank is better.
> 
> But which tank best fulfills the army's retirements.
> 
> For example the IA has overheating problems with both the Arjun and T-90 in the rajastan desert.
> 
> While DRDO made specialized cooling systems for effected systems.
> 
> the Russians installed an Air conditioners in the T-90 and said that would do the trick.
> 
> Now the Russians are known for their simple solutions, so there system may very well be effective.
> 
> But that's what these trials are to find out.
> 
> Which on of these tanks can best fit the requirements of the army.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drag the IAF down to the corrupt hole of the IA.
> 
> They have neglected in the past. But they fully support domestic industry today. taking an active participation in development programs.
> 
> Even supporting RnD in ISRO.
> 
> Once they get rid of the old mig fleets, they can focus more in Domestic.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about what is better.
> 
> Its about which tank suits the Indian Army's requirements best.
> 
> It may be T-90 vs Arjun but the battle is not for, I am better title.
> 
> But which tank works better for IA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what this trial is to decide the IA needs a tank that meets its requirements best. Which is that T-90 or Arjun



Again, read my previous posts. I didn't say the trials are useless, I'm just saying it's not going to give the Arjun much recognition when put in comparison with similar tanks but with credibility. All the trial does is tell you the tank is working and points out any improvements to be made.


----------



## lockh33d

Ingis said:


> Read post#3.
> 
> India's next tank will be a joint development with Russia.



Russia? As if the Puke Fighter was not enough, now it comes in the form of a Puke tank?


----------



## lockh33d

Trisonics said:


> Good comment!! Let me explain:
> 
> This is what India is fighting today, just because it took India to get a tank out in so many years doesn't mean the product is bad, its the *process* that is bad. For A country riddled with corruption, and a media that doesn't fear from throwing opinions, its only natural.
> 
> What is significant here, is a process that is evolving that may smack Army in the face and show the public what it is up to. If DRDO was not confident they have produced a good product, they wouldn't dare to field this trial. Include its reputation in the media and then you would realize how confident they are.
> 
> What if the media in India was not allowed to make one single comment about this tank? would you still see it the same way?
> 
> For people who keep thinking it can't cross the border and kill, well, they are living in a fool's paradise !!!!!!!



Bad process=Good product? If you're to raise a child bribing him/her everyday, does that make an obedient child after a decade or so? Look, if you have a bad process, you risk the project being bad quality.


----------



## RPK

^^^



*Improvements on Russian T-90x*


The new compact conditioner for tanks, armored and civilian vehicles was developed in Russia. It used Peltier effect: thermoelectric cooling, based on creating a heat flux between the junction of two different types of materials. The most problem successfully solved was effectiveness of the Peltier modules. It's all solid state freon-free device, without any negative effect on ozone layer and global warming. Also it's very compact and stress-withstanding. Unlike current models it can be installed inside the Russian MBT tank T-90A. However, the more probable target for the new conditioner installation is 'Burlak' - the modernized version of T-90 tank currently over the tests. It could be installed on the export version T-90S or T-90M instead of the external conditioner, which can be seen on the Algerian and Libian T-90s. Naturally the Russian Future MBT, which published name is T-95, would be equipped with a conditioner based on the same principles, if the program succeeds.




























*
SOURCE & more images here*
Defunct Humanity: New tank conditioner


*&#1058;-90&#1052;. New Specs.*

Sunday, January 3, 2010
&#1058;-90&#1052;. New Specs.

The new pictures and main specs of T-90M (ob.188M) were appeared on a Russian site. This tank was first time demonstrated for Putin in Dec.10 at N-Tagil. It has got:

- New bigger turret without weakened frontal areas and with the all-aspect ERA covering.
- ERA 'Relict'
- Additional roof protection against atop attacking munition.
- New additional autoloader, placed on the aft part of the turret and able using the new longer sub-caliber rods.
- Aft ammo storage.
- Panoramic 3-channel IR commander site with improved anti-split/rounds protection.
- 7.62 mm automatic turret instead of 12.7mm.
- Totally new 2A82 125 mm MG (2A46M5 - optional).
- FCS with the net-centric module.
- New radio.
- New navigation system.
- New anti-split kevlar layer instead of the standard Russian anti-neutron layer.
- new anti-fire system.

Defunct Humanity: ?-90?. New Specs.



T-90ME was demonstrated first time

In work:

- Mono-block power unit on 1200 hp V-99 engine.
- Steering wheel control.

T-90M - is intended for the export purpose mainly. For domestic use there was confirmed 'Burlak' program with heavy Tomsk OKBTM's input.




The export version of modernized T-90M tank was demonstrated for Russian PM Putin today in 'UVZ plant (N-Tagil). The tank has a new, bigger turrets,
- 'Relict' ERA on the turret (but not on the hull),
- a new panoramic commander sight with 360 degree vision,
- new commander hatch with better accessability
- different placement of the air conditioner
- new tracks
- stronger rolls and some improvement in the chassis
- possibly 1200 hp engine





Defunct Humanity: T-90ME was demonstrated first time

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## RPK

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/opinion/army/arjun/dissimilarcombat/general-characteristics.jpg

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## Hulk

faithfulguy said:


> In another word, continue extend the 38 years another year or so? MY feeling is that if it take 38 years to build a tank and it can't be done. 50-60 years won't make much of a difference. It need a redesign. Why won't India save the design money and just buy more T-90 and use the money else where if Arjun turn out to be a flop.
> 
> The engineers will realize what get them the job security.



Only a nutcase idiot can advice not to invest in internal development. No matter what it takes, we should focus on self reliance. Be it Arjun, LCA MCA etc etc. 

For those who talk about 30 40 years forget India hardly had money in past which means lack of funds for such projects. Now that India has money, better relationship in world things will start to fall in place.

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## karan.1970

lockh33d said:


> Bad process=Good product? If you're to raise a child bribing him/her everyday, does that make an obedient child after a decade or so? Look, if you have a bad process, you risk the project being bad quality.



extreme example.. By bad ProcessTrisonic meant Slow process.

In America, the recognition of African americans as equals was a slow(bad) process but the results are not too bad .. are they.. (hint.. Obama).. This example should resonate with you if you are an american citizen...

On your comment around trials not giving arjun recognition.. you are absolutely right. But what these trials may give Arjun is a ticket to play the field. Once that happens, it will either build a reputation for itself or fade away..We dont neet it to have that recognition right away as there are no export expectations. It just needs a space in the IA asset list so that it gets the opportunity to create that recognition

Puke Fighter...?? Puke Tank???

not very nice..


----------



## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Article says "most" of the tanks, some 60% were T-72's-The remaining? However, if you surf online for a bit or watch news 3/2 years old, you'd see T-90's driving around the streets of Georgia.
> 
> 
> 
> Come again?
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever dude, whatever. If you don't want to take in concrete fact, then it's your choice what you want to believe. If you want to think that the Arjun surpasses the Abrams, then go fall into your fantasy dream.
> 
> 
> 
> So if it can't trump Western tech, it still makes the tank world class, is that it?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, read my previous posts. I didn't say the trials are useless, I'm just saying it's not going to give the Arjun much recognition when put in comparison with similar tanks but with credibility. All the trial does is tell you the tank is working and points out any improvements to be made.



So then what exactly is your issue with the tank ?

Whats your POV here.


----------



## lockh33d

gogbot said:


> So then what exactly is your issue with the tank ?
> 
> Whats your POV here.



What is your point, my point is to argue whatever your point was that you previously stated.


----------



## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> What is your point, my point is to argue whatever your point was that you previously stated.



I am trying to find out what your argument is ?

I am not going to argue with you just because.

whats the motion here, i needs to know what we are conflicting on.

You have been posting on every Arjun thread there is , clearly you have and interest and reason for doing so.

I merely want to know what it is.


----------



## karan.1970

lockh33d said:


> What is your point, my point is to argue whatever your point was that you previously stated.



so 2 guys arguing without knowing each others' pov... Rich...


guys.. let it go.. Arjun will get evaluated... Either it will make the cut or not. If it does, more of its numbers will get inducted. If its really not good, IA will stop after initial 200-300 tanks and DRDO will go back to the drawing board. Else we will see Arjun MKII etc soon.. 

We can debate it to death but wont know the outcome till these events play out.. so give it a rest..


----------



## BATMAN

> "Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks," a senior official of the Indian Army said, wishing anonymity.


This line (from the news article) seems to defy the title!
and dosn't fare well for arjun's future!


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> -Withstood but heavily damaged+immobilized?
> 
> -T-90 was used in the Georgian war only two years ago, add to the fact that it was constantly deployed to fend off Cherneyans (Need Spell check on that).



It's spelled Chechnya.



lockh33d said:


> -As a side note, I hate Russians, no love for the T-90 from me.



Are you a 12 years kid with mental retardasion? Hey, come up to a Russian and tell him the same thing see what happens...never mind, don't do it. It would be unethical of me to put a retard in danger.





lockh33d said:


> Article says "most" of the tanks, some 60&#37; were T-72's-The remaining? However, if you surf online for a bit or watch news 3/2 years old, you'd see T-90's driving around the streets of Georgia.



Can you please show us these videos of T-90's, so far i have yet to see one.





lockh33d said:


> Russia? As if the Puke Fighter was not enough, now it comes in the form of a Puke tank?



This link explains everything>>>> http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2010/surprise-retard.jpg


----------



## Ingis

The T-90 is one of the most formidable tanks ever developed. India is definitely blessed to have this beast in service.







Regarding Arjun, I'm of the opinion that DRDO should continue with the Tank EX model. It is lighter and hence, more mobile.


----------



## Hulk

lockh33d said:


> What is your point, my point is to argue whatever your point was that you previously stated.



Man that is hilarious, so you mean that whatever his point will be you will argue for the sake of it. Are you trying to learn argument making skills or master it or something.

Your post on Arjun were very good, but this is not good.


----------



## toxic_pus

Ingis said:


> ...I'm of the opinion that DRDO should continue with the Tank EX model. It is lighter and hence, more mobile.


You will probably not be seeing too much of Tank EX. It is basically Arjun's turret on T-72 chassis. The turret turned out to be way too heavy for the chassis. Every time the gun is fired, the chassis shakes violently, beyond the acceptable limit. It is causing stress on the entire tank. Again, beyond acceptable limit.

Got that from a very respectable forumer, *Officer of Engineers*, at WAB.


----------



## lockh33d

self-delete


----------



## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> It's spelled Chechnya.
> 
> Are you a 12 years kid with mental retardasion? Hey, come up to a Russian and tell him the same thing see what happens...never mind, don't do it. It would be unethical of me to put a retard in danger.
> 
> Can you please show us these videos of T-90's, so far i have yet to see one.
> 
> This link explains everything>>>> http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2010/surprise-retard.jpg




-Like I said, spell check, read before engaging head in gear!

-Last time I checked, speaking one's mind in public was fine. By your standards, as you're speaking your mind as of now, you're a retard? 
Lazy people don't get anywhere in this world, go find it yourself, child.

-Usually, people search the net for their own interests, because they want to fit in more. As you're searching for retards, are you trying to fit in with them more, making yourself one of them?

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## lockh33d

indianrabbit said:


> Man that is hilarious, so you mean that whatever his point will be you will argue for the sake of it. Are you trying to learn argument making skills or master it or something.
> 
> Your post on Arjun were very good, but this is not good.



We were having a debate on this before, so you won't get it.


----------



## lockh33d

Ingis said:


> The T-90 is one of the most formidable tanks ever developed. India is definitely blessed to have this beast in service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding Arjun, I'm of the opinion that DRDO should continue with the Tank EX model. It is lighter and hence, more mobile.



Formidable when comparing it with the rest of India's inventory, but a piece of junk when compared with similar works of the West. Afterall, T90 is a derivative of the T72, where the T72 is nothing but trash.


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## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> Formidable when comparing it with the rest of India's inventory, but a piece of junk when compared with similar works of the West. Afterall, T90 is a derivative of the T72, where the T72 is nothing but trash.



Come on mate how you came in to conclusion that its a piece of Junk?care to explain?


----------



## xuxu1457

???????T72?????? - ?? - ???? - ???? - ?? ?? ?? ??

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## lockh33d

seiko said:


> Come on mate how you came in to conclusion that its a piece of Junk?care to explain?



During Operation Desert Shield, US Coalition forces armed with M1A1 Abrams tanks destroyed over a thousand enemy T-72's, while suffering 0 LOSSES of their own, this shows the structural integrity of the Abrams and the sheer uselessness of Russian crap.


----------



## lockh33d

xuxu1457 said:


> ???????T72?????? - ?? - ???? - ???? - ?? ?? ?? ??



Great video, but that really depends on what round was used on the tank, and of what caliber it is. Usual 120 HEAT's do the trick fine, but if that's an 80 mil rocket destroying that tank, then the Russians shouldn't even have existed as a so called "Superpower" in the past decades. Sorry, I meant USSR, not Russia, I hope I didn't destroy any of your pride, my apologies.

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## xuxu1457

lockh33d said:


> Great video, but that really depends on what round was used on the tank, and of what caliber it is. Usual 120 HEAT's do the trick fine, but if that's an 80 mil rocket destroying that tank, then the Russians shouldn't even have existed as a so called "Superpower" in the past decades. Sorry, I meant USSR, not Russia, I hope I didn't destroy any of your pride, my apologies.



Javelin anti-missile attack on T72


----------



## xuxu1457

99 tanks:anti-damage test video
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMzU5MzgwNjA=/v.swf
the MBT2000
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNjQ1Mzg5ODA=/v.swf


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## gogbot

xuxu1457 said:


> 99 tanks:anti-damage test video
> http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMzU5MzgwNjA=/v.swf
> the MBT2000
> http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNjQ1Mzg5ODA=/v.swf





Lol i have say impressed once again with the type-99.


----------



## Novice09

Honor said:


> If that's a good tank, Indian Army should buy more.
> 
> The no. of purchased by Indian Army tells her quality.



Corruption...


----------



## faithfulguy

Novice09 said:


> Corruption...



Or mabye that tank is not suitable for the Indian desert? Corruption is just a charge. Any one got indicted for corruption yet?


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> -Like I said, spell check, read before engaging head in gear!



I read perfectly, and i can tell you can't even correctly pronounce Chechnya, let alone sound it out and atleast come close to spelling it correctly, so good luck on spell checking "Cherneyans".




lockh33d said:


> -Last time I checked, speaking one's mind in public was fine. By your standards, as you're speaking your mind as of now, you're a retard?
> Lazy people don't get anywhere in this world, go find it yourself, child.



You can speak your mind. However, I have no respect for racists. when you start using such phrases as "*i hate Russians*" and "Puke tank" then you better be prepared for what's coming. Did you think i was going to thank you for your remarks?





lockh33d said:


> -Usually, people search the net for their own interests, because they want to fit in more. As you're searching for retards, are you trying to fit in with them more, making yourself one of them?



Usually people post links to back up their claims. Like i said, i have yet to see videos of T-90's in Georgia, so please give a link, and don't give me that gouv-nau about searching yourself, you make a claim, back it up. It's a simple concept.


----------



## xuxu1457

gogbot said:


> Isn't the 99 based on the t-90



No,No,ZTZ99 has nothing with T90,Jane's Defence Weekly 2008 Top 10 Tanks 
1.M1A2 SEP
2.leopard2A6
3.leclerc AMX
4.ZTZ99 
7.T-90C/S


----------



## grey boy 2

The current best main battle tank from the USA, Russia, and China Just for sharing ideas

*The table below shows some comparison among these three MBTs. It sources from US Defence, Janes, Sinodefence, and wikipedia.*


*M1A2
T-90
ZTZ-99*

*Number in service*
1500 M1A2
500 T-90
200 ZTZ99

*Weight (tonnes)*
68
46
54

*Cruising range (km)*
400
650
600

*Power/weight (hp/tonnes)*
25
23
28

*Speed (km/h)*
67
65
80

*Speed, off road (km/h)*
48
n.a
60

*Armor
All have unknown composite, ERA*

*Protection*
NBC
NBC
NBC

*Primary gun (mm)*
120
125
125

*Gun range (m)*
4000
5000
5000

*Rounds penetration (mm)*
790
950
960

*Secondary gun (mm)*
7.62
7.62
7.62

*Anti aircraft gun (mm)*
12.7
12.7
12.7

*ATGM capability*
No
Yes
Yes

*ATGM range (m)*
0
6000
6000

*Night vision*
Yes
Yes
Yes

*Laser finder*
Yes
Yes
Yes

*Autoloader*
No
Yes
Yes

*Crew*
4
3
3

*From the table, we may think that the ZTZ-99 is the best. It has a anti tank guided missile (ATGM) similar to T-90 but it has more power and speed. Also, ZTZ-99 is 2000s design technology, whereas M1A2 and T-90 based on the 1980s design with improved sensors and armaments. However, unlike M1A2 and T-90 (assuming it is used in Georgian conflict), ZTZ-99 does not have any real combat experience yet. *


----------



## Iggy

lockh33d said:


> During Operation Desert Shield, US Coalition forces armed with M1A1 Abrams tanks destroyed over a thousand enemy T-72's, while suffering 0 LOSSES of their own, this shows the structural integrity of the Abrams and the sheer uselessness of Russian crap.



I meant about Arjun..


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> During Operation Desert Shield, US Coalition forces armed with M1A1 Abrams tanks destroyed over a thousand enemy T-72's, while suffering 0 LOSSES of their own, this shows the structural integrity of the Abrams and the sheer uselessness of Russian crap.



Firstly, *23 abams were taken out*. Secondly, most of Iraq's tank force was made up of, "*T-55 and T-62 tanks, as well as Iraqi assembled Russian T-72s, and locally-produced copies (Asad Babil tank). *The T-72s like most Soviet export designs *lacked night vision systems *and then-modern rangefinders."

Iraqi tanks could not fire anti-tank missiles *like their Russian counterparts.*
M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And just so you know many Iraqi tanks were taken out from the air. Like one American general said " The results would have been the same if we operated the same tanks because our training was that good."



lockh33d said:


> Great video, but that really depends on what round was used on the tank, and of what caliber it is. Usual 120 HEAT's do the trick fine, *but if that's an 80 mil rocket destroying that tank, then the Russians shouldn't even have existed as a so called "Superpower" in the past decades.* Sorry, I meant USSR, not Russia, I hope I didn't destroy any of your pride, my apologies.



Merkava's, *considered the best armoured tanks in the world*, were getting knocked out as if they were plastic toys, during the Lebonon conflict.






This is what good Russian RPG's do to Merkava's, what do you think will happen to the Abrams?

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## Iggy

Guy its about Arjun.. dont derail the topic.stick to the topic


----------



## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> I read perfectly, and i can tell you can't even correctly pronounce Chechnya, let alone sound it out and atleast come close to spelling it correctly, so good luck on spell checking "Cherneyans".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can speak your mind. However, I have no respect for racists. when you start using such phrases as "*i hate Russians*" and "Puke tank" then you better be prepared for what's coming. Did you think i was going to thank you for your remarks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Usually people post links to back up their claims. Like i said, i have yet to see videos of T-90's in Georgia, so please give a link, and don't give me that gouv-nau about searching yourself, you make a claim, back it up. It's a simple concept.



In terms of weaponry, the US is miles ahead of others. Everyone else is gunning for the distant 2nd. Its like some Olympic competitoin, we know who is going to win the gold. Its the battle for the silver that is interesting.

So if something is a good or a junk is all relative to what its compare with. The Abram tank had proven its mark in battle. The one tank it had encountered is the T-72. And Abram definitely owns T-72 in the Iraqi desert. As for T-90 Vs M1A2, I would be very surprise if T-90 can compete against M1A2.


----------



## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> I meant about Arjun..



We'll have find out at the test. Its pointless to theorize, especially a field test is immenent.


----------



## gogbot

xuxu1457 said:


> No,No,ZTZ99 has nothing with T90,Jane's Defence Weekly 2008 Top 10 Tanks
> 1.M1A2 SEP
> 2.leopard2A6
> 3.leclerc AMX
> 4.ZTZ99
> 7.T-90C/S



Ya ya i know i was thinking of another Chinese tank.

edited my post once i realized what tank it was.


----------



## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> We'll have find out at the test. Its pointless to theorize, especially a field test is immenent.



Yes thats what i am saying too..wait till after the test is over to right off Arjun..


----------



## xuxu1457

grey boy 2 said:


> The current best main battle tank from the USA, Russia, and China Just for sharing ideas
> 
> *The table below shows some comparison among these three MBTs. It sources from US Defence, Janes, Sinodefence, and wikipedia.*
> 
> 
> *M1A2
> T-90
> ZTZ-99*
> 
> *Number in service*
> 1500 M1A2
> 500 T-90
> 200 ZTZ99
> 
> *Weight (tonnes)*
> 68
> 46
> 54
> 
> *Cruising range (km)*
> 400
> 650
> 600
> 
> *Power/weight (hp/tonnes)*
> 25
> 23
> 28
> 
> *Speed (km/h)*
> 67
> 65
> 80
> 
> *Speed, off road (km/h)*
> 48
> n.a
> 60
> 
> *Armor
> All have unknown composite, ERA*
> 
> *Protection*
> NBC
> NBC
> NBC
> 
> *Primary gun (mm)*
> 120
> 125
> 125
> 
> *Gun range (m)*
> 4000
> 5000
> 5000
> 
> *Rounds penetration (mm)*
> 790
> 950
> 960
> 
> *Secondary gun (mm)*
> 7.62
> 7.62
> 7.62
> 
> *Anti aircraft gun (mm)*
> 12.7
> 12.7
> 12.7
> 
> *ATGM capability*
> No
> Yes
> Yes
> 
> *ATGM range (m)*
> 0
> 6000
> 6000
> 
> *Night vision*
> Yes
> Yes
> Yes
> 
> *Laser finder*
> Yes
> Yes
> Yes
> 
> *Autoloader*
> No
> Yes
> Yes
> 
> *Crew*
> 4
> 3
> 3
> 
> *From the table, we may think that the ZTZ-99 is the best. It has a anti tank guided missile (ATGM) similar to T-90 but it has more power and speed. Also, ZTZ-99 is 2000s design technology, whereas M1A2 and T-90 based on the 1980s design with improved sensors and armaments. However, unlike M1A2 and T-90 (assuming it is used in Georgian conflict), ZTZ-99 does not have any real combat experience yet. *



Here is a video of ztz99,but not the latest ztz99A2
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XOTQ4ODQ3NDA=/v.swf


----------



## Novice09

faithfulguy said:


> Or mabye that tank is not suitable for the Indian desert? Corruption is just a charge. Any one got indicted for corruption yet?



How do you know that Arjun Tank is not suitable for the Indian desert?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/587601-post14.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/575174-post117.html

Anyhow these trial would be decisive...

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## faithfulguy

Novice09 said:


> How do you know that Arjun Tank is not suitable for the Indian desert?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/587601-post14.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/575174-post117.html
> 
> Anyhow these trial would be decisive...



its just my guess. I really do not have the clear data on its ability. However, it could be more than just corruption that IA would not buy Arjun if Arjun is clearly superior.


----------



## gogbot

seiko said:


> Yes thats what i am saying too..wait till after the test is over to right off Arjun..



your assuming the test is conducting.

The IA keeps the competitive trials trials in Limbo.

They were first supposed to be conducted 

in April 09 but IA said IA wanted full regiment exercise with 45 Arjuns and 45 T-90's.  . 

So it got moved to October 09 IA then said they wanted to conduct a war game style trial where. Where the tanks would have to capture key points. As efficiently as possible. And when DRDO objected to the sudden change as this kind of trial brings into play the experience and skill of the tank operators. IA postpone again. 

Now its March 2010, what excuse will the IA make now.

What needs to happen is closure on this once and for all.

A trial by Fire against the T-90 to put all rumors and speculation to rest.

What ever the Result, sections within the IA seems to be intent on hiding it.

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## faithfulguy

gogbot said:


> your assuming the test is conducting.
> 
> The IA keeps the competitive trials trials in Limbo.
> 
> They were first supposed to be conducted
> 
> in April 09 but IA said IA wanted full regiment exercise with 45 Arjuns and 45 T-90's.  .
> 
> So it got moved to October 09 IA then said they wanted to conduct a war game style trial where. Where the tanks would have to capture key points. As efficiently as possible. And when DRDO objected to the sudden change as this kind of trial brings into play the experience and skill of the tank operators. IA postpone again.
> 
> Now its March 2010, what excuse will the IA make now.
> 
> What needs to happen is closure on this once and for all.
> 
> A trial by Fire against the T-90 to put all rumors and speculation to rest.
> 
> What ever the Result, sections within the IA seems to be intent on hiding it.



Why won't India take Arjun to an international show and let foreign countries try it out. If its a real good tank and the price is right, maybe foreign countries would buy it in larger quantities if IA refuses.


----------



## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> Why won't India take Arjun to an international show and let foreign countries try it out. If its a real good tank and the price is right, maybe foreign countries would buy it in larger quantities if IA refuses.



Already Colombia shown interest in this Tank


----------



## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Already Colombia shown interest in this Tank



There you go. I heard Peru plan to buy some Chinese export version of Al Khalid. Peru and Columbia are not in the best of terms. If conflict happen between this two countries, than these two tanks could square off in a real life scenario.


----------



## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> I read perfectly, and i can tell you can't even correctly pronounce Chechnya, let alone sound it out and atleast come close to spelling it correctly, so good luck on spell checking "Cherneyans".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can speak your mind. However, I have no respect for racists. when you start using such phrases as "*i hate Russians*" and "Puke tank" then you better be prepared for what's coming. Did you think i was going to thank you for your remarks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Usually people post links to back up their claims. Like i said, i have yet to see videos of T-90's in Georgia, so please give a link, and don't give me that gouv-nau about searching yourself, you make a claim, back it up. It's a simple concept.



If you read perfectly, then howcome you didn't see the "Spellcheck" part, which I clearly informed every reader that I made a mistake which I couldn't fix in spelling "Chechnya."

I never asked for a thanks, so please do not insist on giving it.

You made a claim that T-90's weren't used 3/2 years ago, OK. Back that up with evidence. Can you promise me that out of the billions or trillions of articles online, not one of them has a T-90 related to the 2008 conflict? Where's you source?


----------



## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> Firstly, *23 abams were taken out*. Secondly, most of Iraq's tank force was made up of, "*T-55 and T-62 tanks, as well as Iraqi assembled Russian T-72s, and locally-produced copies (Asad Babil tank). *The T-72s like most Soviet export designs *lacked night vision systems *and then-modern rangefinders."
> 
> Iraqi tanks could not fire anti-tank missiles *like their Russian counterparts.*
> M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And just so you know many Iraqi tanks were taken out from the air. Like one American general said " The results would have been the same if we operated the same tanks because our training was that good."
> 
> 
> 
> Merkava's, *considered the best armoured tanks in the world*, were getting knocked out as if they were plastic toys, during the Lebonon conflict.
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> merkava taking hits[/url]
> 
> This is what good Russian RPG's do to Merkava's, what do you think will happen to the Abrams?



OK buddy, since you told me to post evidence to back up my claims, where is the evidence that 27 M1's got knocked out during OPERATION DESERT SHIELD? As for the AF taking out land targets, that is true. However in a book I read, I clearly recall seeing some one thousand T-72's destroyed and taken out of action by M1's alone.


----------



## RPK

faithfulguy said:


> There you go. I heard Peru plan to buy some Chinese export version of Al Khalid. Peru and Columbia are not in the best of terms. If conflict happen between this two countries, than these two tanks could square off in a real life scenario.



you know peru is not ordering AK actually RAW is . It will be packed in a plane & back to india to test it

PS: don't ask for link RAW has good foundation in peru sorry for offtopic


----------



## gogbot

faithfulguy said:


> Why won't India take Arjun to an international show and let foreign countries try it out. If its a real good tank and the price is right, maybe foreign countries would buy it in larger quantities if IA refuses.



DRDO cried foul against Army so much.

They had to bring in an international 3rd party to evaluate the tank.
After the Aduit showed the tank meets all the IA's requirements.

MOD gave the order for the 124 tanks we have now.

Army said after the Audit that The IA is now looking for something else and said the order would be capped at 124.

DRDO cry foul again , SO MoD sets up for comparative trials.4
between T-90 and Arjun.

Since then IA has been dodging the trials.

There is rampant corruption in the army.
its our worst modernized branch in the armed forces, and also the one with the most corruption charges, i wonder if there is a relation.


----------



## Iggy

gogbot said:


> DRDO cried foul against Army so much.
> 
> They had to bring in an international 3rd party to evaluate the tank.
> After the Aduit showed the tank meets all the IA's requirements.
> 
> MOD gave the order for the 124 tanks we have now.
> 
> Army said after the Audit that The IA is now looking for something else and said the order would be capped at 124.
> 
> DRDO cry foul again , SO MoD sets up for comparative trials.4
> between T-90 and Arjun.
> 
> Since then IA has been dodging the trials.
> 
> There is rampant corruption in the army.
> its our worst modernized branch in the armed forces, and also the one with the most corruption charges, i wonder if there is a relation.




Seems like some heads must be rolled after this comparitive trials  ..May be this is the same case with Insas too..who knows


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> If you read perfectly, then howcome you didn't see the "Spellcheck" part, which I clearly informed every reader that I made a mistake which I couldn't fix in spelling "Chechnya."



Beleive me, i seen it. I simply showed you how to spell correctly.



lockh33d said:


> I never asked for a thanks, so please do not insist on giving it.



And to think i was a mouse click away 



lockh33d said:


> *You made a claim that T-90's weren't used *3/2 years ago, OK. Back that up with evidence. Can you promise me that out of the billions or trillions of articles online, not one of them has a T-90 related to the 2008 conflict? Where's you source?



Read my posts carefully, you made the claim that there is video of the T-90 in Georgia, i made the remark that i have never seen this video, then i asked you to provide a link to this video; you told me to find it myself. I have searched for evidence of the T-90 in Georgia. However, i have not found such. I'm not doubting there wasn't T-90's in Georgia. However, i have not found evidence that there was, but your unwillingness to provide any proof doesn't help your cause, so where can i find this video?

To reiterate my point, the T-90 could have been used in Georgia but i'm more interested in this video.



lockh33d said:


> OK buddy, since you told me to post evidence to back up my claims, *where is the evidence that 27 M1's got knocked out *during OPERATION DESERT SHIELD? As for the AF taking out land targets, that is true. However in a book I read, I clearly recall seeing some one thousand T-72's destroyed and taken out of action by M1's alone.




In the link i provided. And are you sure those "thousand T-72's" were infact T-72's. Most of the Iraqi tank force was made up of *OLD* downgraded T-55, T-62's and some garbage Iraqi tanks.


----------



## Iggy

I think we have a China-Russia war going on here


----------



## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> Beleive me, i seen it. I simply showed you how to spell correctly.



Good, thank you, because this was not the impression I got from your last post.



ptldM3 said:


> And to think i was a mouse click away



Doubt 1 click of a mouse can do anything.



ptldM3 said:


> Read my posts carefully, you made the claim that there is video of the T-90 in Georgia, i made the remark that i have never seen this video, then i asked you to provide a link to this video; you told me to find it myself. I have searched for evidence of the T-90 in Georgia. However, i have not found such. I'm not doubting there wasn't T-90's in Georgia. However, i have not found evidence that there was, but your unwillingness to provide any proof doesn't help your cause, so where can i find this video?



OK, the video footage I found was on the 6 o'clock news, sorry, but I didn't tape it, not for myself, not for you. My apologies. But you cannot prove that I haven't seen it.



ptldM3 said:


> To reiterate my point, the T-90 could have been used in Georgia but i'm more interested in this video.



Sorry, wish you were here a little over a year ago.



ptldM3 said:


> In the link i provided. And are you sure those "thousand T-72's" were infact T-72's. Most of the Iraqi tank force was made up of *OLD* T-55, T-62's and some garbage Iraqi tanks.



Well, if the book I read in the library was correct, then yes, I did read >10^3 T-72's.


----------



## lockh33d

What's you point ptldM3, what are you trying to prove? That the T-90 is on par with its Western counterparts? If that's so, I'm sorry to say but you're sadly mistaken.


----------



## lockh33d

seiko said:


> I think we have a China-Russia war going on here



All I'm seeing is a debate on Russia, don't know where the former came from.


----------



## Ingis

lockh33d said:


> Formidable when comparing it with the rest of India's inventory, but a piece of junk when compared with similar works of the West.



Says who? The greatest self-proclaimed military expert of our times? 

It is absolutely retarded to point out the performance of T-72 during Operation Desert Storm and Shield because those under Iraqi service were poorly maintained, had no countermeasures suite and had no explosive-reactive armor. And not to forget the fact that Iraqi crewmen were poorly trained and US forces enjoyed absolute air superiority. 

So, go take your useless rants somewhere else.


----------



## gogbot

seiko said:


> Seems like some heads must be rolled after this comparitive trials  ..May be this is the same case with Insas too..who knows



Just search google news for "Indian army corruption."

you will find a Long list of articles going back to Bofors scandal

In any armed forces the Army is always the most corrupt. In India the army is working hard to be number one in this field.

The number of firms black listed for the army artillery.
Is just the tip of the ice berg.

I just want Arjun to get its trial by fire.
so either we can induct in 1000's or build a new tank.


----------



## Iggy

gogbot said:


> Just search google news for "Indian army corruption."
> 
> you will find a Long list of articles going back to Bofors scandal
> 
> In any armed forces the Army is always the most corrupt. In India the army is working hard to be number one in this field.
> 
> The number of firms black listed for the army artillery.
> Is just the tip of the ice berg.
> 
> I just want Arjun to get its trial by fire.
> so either we can induct in 1000's or build a new tank.





Yea due to the allegation of bribary and scandal MoD blacklisted almost all the artillery production firm around the world ..And now they allowed blacklisted firm to take part in trials..dont know what kind of circus is going on there


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> What's you point ptldM3, what are you trying to prove? That the T-90 is on par with its Western counterparts? If that's so, I'm sorry to say but you're sadly mistaken.



Well the T-90 can penatrate 950 mm of armour compared with Abrams 790 mm. It can detection night targets at ranges as far as 1,100 meters. It's capable of firing anti tank missles. The Shtora-1 jams weapons guided laser systems, as does the 3D6 aerosol grenade discharging systems.

Does the Abrams even have protection beyond its armour?

The Abrams isn't as invisible as you may think.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/DM-SD-04-07075.jpg/800px-DM-SD-04-07075.jpg

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/10/image1388452g.jpg 

http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/abrams_lessons_learned5a.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/6t02b01.gif

Just google destroyed Abrams and you will see countless images.

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## gogbot

Ingis said:


> Says who? The greatest self-proclaimed military expert of our times?
> 
> It is absolutely retarded to point out the performance of T-72 during Operation Desert Storm and Shield because those under Iraqi service were poorly maintained, had no countermeasures suite and had no explosive-reactive armor. And not to forget the fact that Iraqi crewmen were poorly trained and US forces enjoyed absolute air superiority.
> 
> So, go take your useless rants somewhere else.



Dude he just doesn't like Russian Gear.

Let it go, he is Anti-Russian for reasons unknown.


----------



## gogbot

ptldM3 said:


> Well the T-90 can penatrate 950 mm of armour compared with Abrams 790 mm. It can detection night targets at ranges as far as 1,100 meters. It's capable of firing anti tank missles. The Shtora-1 jams weapons guided laser systems, as does the 3D6 aerosol grenade discharging systems.
> 
> Does the Abrams even have protection beyond its armour?



You are wasting your time. ptldM3

The only thing he has against all the equipment is the fact that they were made by Russians.

No sane argument you make can cure him of such blind hatred.

The only known treatment for such things is a practical demonstration. 











No offense to Pak . i cant change that. But i can tell you its not my message

If you dont like the content of the videos then there is always.


----------



## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> Well the T-90 can penatrate 950 mm of armour compared with Abrams 790 mm. It can detection night targets at ranges as far as 1,100 meters. It's capable of firing anti tank missles. The Shtora-1 jams weapons guided laser systems, as does the 3D6 aerosol grenade discharging systems.
> 
> Does the Abrams even have protection beyond its armour?
> 
> The Abrams isn't as invisible as you may think.
> 
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/DM-SD-04-07075.jpg/800px-DM-SD-04-07075.jpg
> 
> http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/10/image1388452g.jpg
> 
> http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/abrams_lessons_learned5a.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/6t02b01.gif
> 
> Just google destroyed Abrams and you will see countless images.



The Abrams were destroyed by road side bombs, not by anti tank guns or missiles.(At least the majority were not)

US army cannot be beaten head on, so the enemy resorted to terrorist tactics.


----------



## lockh33d

Ingis said:


> Says who? The greatest self-proclaimed military expert of our times?
> 
> It is absolutely retarded to point out the performance of T-72 during Operation Desert Storm and Shield because those under Iraqi service were poorly maintained, had no countermeasures suite and had no explosive-reactive armor. And not to forget the fact that Iraqi crewmen were poorly trained and US forces enjoyed absolute air superiority.
> 
> So, go take your useless rants somewhere else.



And back then, the Abrams only existed in the A1 variant, without all the state of the art electrics that the SEP version comes packaged in today. Thus, I say it was a fairly even match, especially when only ~200-300 of them were sent in to fight from the start, to outmatch and outgun more than 1:3 in the war. FYI, those were Abram kills alone, not air kills.


----------



## faithfulguy

gogbot said:


> Dude he just doesn't like Russian Gear.
> 
> Let it go, he is Anti-Russian for reasons unknown.



He is not anti-Russia. He just believe that the latest US weaponry is the world's best. Which is a consensus view world wide.

The Chinese guys and the Pakistani buys believe in that. I guess only some Indians in here believe that US weaponry is #2 behind India. Totally bias and lack of logic.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## faithfulguy

gogbot said:


> You are wasting your time. ptldM3
> 
> The only thing he has against all the equipment is the fact that they were made by Russians.
> 
> No sane argument you make can cure him of such blind hatred.
> 
> The only known treatment for such things is a practical demonstration.
> 
> No offense to Pak . i cant change that. But i can tell you its not my message
> 
> If you dont like the content of the videos then there is always.



If there is a war between Pak and India, Pakistani army would be facing T-90, not Arjun. So its pointless to talk about how good is Arjun if Indian Army is not buying them. Try to sell to Columbia and if the Columbia want them, then try to sell them to Indian army again.


----------



## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> He is not anti-Russia. He just believe that the latest US weaponry is the world's best. Which is a consensus view world wide.
> 
> The Chinese guys and the Pakistani buys believe in that. I guess only some Indians in here believe that US weaponry is #2 behind India. Totally bias and lack of logic.



I didnt know that T-90 was an Indian weapon ..dont be a third rate basher around here

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## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> Well the T-90 can penatrate 950 mm of armour compared with Abrams 790 mm. It can detection night targets at ranges as far as 1,100 meters. It's capable of firing anti tank missles. The Shtora-1 jams weapons guided laser systems, as does the 3D6 aerosol grenade discharging systems.



These are just add-on technologies to the chassis and turret, which still are redesigns or recycles of the T-72, which was rolled on by the Abrams in both Iraqi wars, though the former war was more impressive, since the A1 variant is an 80's platform, around the same time(Albeit a bit later) than the Soviet T-72.



ptldM3 said:


> Does the Abrams even have protection beyond its armour?



Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's can't penetrate the Depleted U layer to begin with.



ptldM3 said:


> The Abrams isn't as invisible as you may think.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/DM-SD-04-07075.jpg/800px-DM-SD-04-07075.jpg
> 
> http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/10/image1388452g.jpg
> 
> http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/abrams_lessons_learned5a.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/6t02b01.gif



It's not invisible, it produces so much heat it's not funny, making itself such a big target to heat signature rounds. 



ptldM3 said:


> Just google destroyed Abrams and you will see countless images.



What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.


----------



## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> I didnt know that T-90 was an Indian weapon ..dont be a third rate basher around here



I never said that T-90 is an Indian weapon. Its certainly Russian and its current model is behind in performance vs the latest Abram M1A2.

India is not involve here. But Indians here believe that India is #1 in technology is what I observed. Nothing to do with Abram vs T-90 though. 

On a 2nd thought, if T-90 can really take on the latest Abram and India has that version, i can see why IA won't want Arjan. But sorry, T-90 can't.


----------



## lockh33d

gogbot said:


> You are wasting your time. ptldM3
> 
> The only thing he has against all the equipment is the fact that they were made by Russians.
> 
> No sane argument you make can cure him of such blind hatred.
> 
> The only known treatment for such things is a practical demonstration.
> 
> vR87SSom5nA[/media] - T-90 It's really hard to be the best
> 
> NfbAqeWDYug[/media] - ARJUN TANK
> 
> No offense to Pak . i cant change that. But i can tell you its not my message
> 
> If you dont like the content of the videos then there is always.



That monkey is for you, it shows you how blind you are to the military might of the USA. One day, when something near and dear to you is destroyed by the Corps, you'll realize how regretful you should be.


----------



## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> I never said that T-90 is an Indian weapon. Its certainly Russian and its current model is behind in performance vs the latest Abram M1A2.
> 
> India is not involve here. But Indians here believe that India is #1 in technology is what I observed. Nothing to do with Abram vs T-90 though.
> 
> On a 2nd thought, if T-90 can really take on the latest Abram and India has that version, i can see why IA won't want Arjan. But sorry, T-90 can't.




Point out any post where we Indians said T-90 can take Abrams??or we saying ours is no.1 technology..other wise it will be considered as a third rate ranting from you as usual to satisfy your sick ego


----------



## faithfulguy

lockh33d said:


> These are just add-on technologies to the chassis and turret, which still are redesigns or recycles of the T-72, which was rolled on by the Abrams in both Iraqi wars, though the former war was more impressive, since the A1 variant is an 80's platform, around the same time(Albeit a bit later) than the Soviet T-72.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's can't penetrate the Depleted U layer to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not invisible, it produces so much heat it's not funny, making itself such a big target to heat signature rounds.
> 
> 
> 
> What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.



Maybe the army shouldn't use hellfire or Javeline when an Abram or Bradly is around.


----------



## Novice09

faithfulguy said:


> The Abrams were destroyed by road side bombs, not by anti tank guns or missiles.(At least the majority were not)
> 
> US army cannot be beaten head on, so the enemy resorted to terrorist tactics.



*terrorist tactics*    If it is against  than it become an act of terror? 

What about Guerrilla tactics?


----------



## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> Point out any post where we Indians said T-90 can take Abrams??or we saying ours is no.1 technology..other wise it will be considered as a third rate ranting from you as usual to satisfy your sick ego



I am saying that Indians said that. But there is definitely a conversation going on about Abrams and T-90 and I'm not the one with the sick ego. All I'm doing is tying the Abram vs T-90 debate to the topic of Arjun and T-90. And stated that

"If T-90 is better than the latest Abram, there is no need for T-90 vs Arjun test."


----------



## faithfulguy

Novice09 said:


> *terrorist tactics*    If it is against  than it become an act of terror?
> 
> What about Guerrilla tactics?



Using road side bombs are not guerrilla tactics. guerrilla tactic would be equivalent of using a javelin missile to take down a tank. Terrorist uses road side radio control bombs. A tactic used a lot by IRA against the British army.


----------



## lockh33d

faithfulguy said:


> Maybe the army shouldn't use hellfire or Javeline when an Abram or Bradly is around.



That's quite impossible. Aerial attacks simply cannot declare victory on their own, a land assault reinforcement is necessary to ensure target objectives are accomplished. Refer to Vietnam war. At times, bad information relay in the strike region can cause ally to become foe, hence resulting significant amounts of friendly losses, and so, the images you see on Google.


----------



## faithfulguy

lockh33d said:


> That's quite impossible. Aerial attacks simply cannot declare victory on their own, a land assault reinforcement is necessary to ensure target objectives are accomplished. Refer to Vietnam war. At times, bad information relay in the strike region can cause ally to become foe, hence resulting significant amounts of friendly losses, and so, the images you see on Google.



A lot of US losses come from friendly fire. I've just started reading a book about Pat Tillman by Jon Krakauer. Pat Tillman was killed by tracer rounds from friendly fire.


----------



## lockh33d

Novice09 said:


> *terrorist tactics*    If it is against  than it become an act of terror?
> 
> What about Guerrilla tactics?



Do you know what terrorist attacks are? Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests and sent to Coalition forces to explode. Militants using civilians as cover and fodder to prevent Coalition forces from coming in. Suicide bombers, you name the rest... Get the facts right.


----------



## faithfulguy

lockh33d said:


> Do you know what terrorist attacks are? Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests and sent to Coalition forces to explode. Militants using civilians as cover and fodder to prevent Coalition forces from coming in. Suicide bombers, you name the rest... Get the facts right.



I respect your limited definition but disagree base on historic occurance of how terrorists operate with bombs. An example was given above about IRA.

BTW, I'm neutral on IRA vs British Army conflict. If you are a major IRA supporter, I'm not against or for you. I'm just given you an insight of tactics base on how US categorize IRA during the 70s and 80s.


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## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> I am saying that Indians said that. But there is definitely a conversation going on about Abrams and T-90 and I'm not the one with the sick ego. All I'm doing is tying the Abram vs T-90 debate to the topic of Arjun and T-90. And stated that
> 
> "If T-90 is better than the latest Abram, there is no need for T-90 vs Arjun test."



now you are contradicting your self?who came up with Abrams vs T-90 here..is it our idea?you got a chance and you jump on bashing Indians and now playing innocent..tell me where did that statement came up dude??that T-90 is better than Abrams from our side so there is no need for the comparative trial?


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## gogbot

faithfulguy said:


> He is not anti-Russia. He just believe that the latest US weaponry is the world's best. Which is a consensus view world wide.
> 
> The Chinese guys and the Pakistani buys believe in that. I guess only some Indians in here believe that US weaponry is #2 behind India. Totally bias and lack of logic.



Shut up, we have been friends for years. I have known him longer than you.

He has for some reason he has decided to be Anti-Russian.

No matter how much i try i cant change his mind.

He be entitled to his own POV so i let him be, just warning others not to waste their time. He is commited to be Anti-russia.


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## Roby

seiko said:


> I didnt know that T-90 was an Indian weapon ..dont be a third rate basher around here



you people still replying to these trolls??


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## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> now you are contradicting your self?who came up with Abrams vs T-90 here..is it our idea?you got a chance and you jump on bashing Indians and now playing innocent..tell me where did that statement came up dude??that T-90 is better than Abrams from our side so there is no need for the comparative trial?



That "if" T-90 is better than Abrams from our side so there is no need for the comparative trial.

Do you forget the term "if" in there. It render the meaning of my statement completely different with the word "if"


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> That monkey is for you, it shows you how blind you are to the military might of the USA. One day, when something near and dear to you is destroyed by the Corps, you'll realize how regretful you should be.



what reason does the US have to attack India or Australia.


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## faithfulguy

gogbot said:


> Shut up, we have been friends for years. I have known him longer than you.
> 
> He has for some reason he has decided to be Anti-Russian.
> 
> No matter how much i try i cant change his mind.
> 
> He be entitled to his own POV so i let him be, just warning others not to waste their time. He is commited to be Anti-russia.



Stop personal attacks. Thanks for sharing your drama but keep it for your mama.


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## Iggy

Roby said:


> you people still replying to these trolls??



this guy is misleading and hijacking all the thread saying Indians said this Indians said that kind of ranting which even we didnt said in any thread.. just look at what he said some posts earlier..we said that our technology is better than US..he dont even understand what we are discussing here..sick of this guy dont even have any dignity to himself and trolling all along with India bashing theary..


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## Iggy

faithfulguy said:


> That "if" T-90 is better than Abrams from our side so there is no need for the comparative trial.
> 
> Do you forget the term "if" in there. It render the meaning of my statement completely different with the word "if"



I am asking did we said that or not?did we even claim that Arjun can take on Abrams ?then why you said Indians think their technology is superior to US?..is this trolling or not?


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## Novice09

lockh33d said:


> Do you know what terrorist attacks are? Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests and sent to Coalition forces to explode. Militants using civilians as cover and fodder to prevent Coalition forces from coming in. Suicide bombers, you name the rest... Get the facts right.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/628672-post182.html

Does those Abrams were down by Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests or by Militants using civilians as cover and fodder or by Suicide bombers???


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## faithfulguy

seiko said:


> I am asking did we said that or not?did we even claim that Arjun can take on Abrams ?then why you said Indians think their technology is superior to US?..is this trolling or not?



I'm not saying that you claim Arjun can take on Abram. Nice try, but stop putting words into my mouth. 

I was just refering to the conversation about T-90 vs Abram and how T-90 vs Abram can affect the Arjun vs T-90 tank test. I'm not trolling. As matter of fact, I'm tying the T-90 vs Abram discussion to this thread so those discussions would not sound so off the topic.


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## faithfulguy

Novice09 said:


> Thank you very much.....
> 
> Does those Abrams were down by Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests or by Militants using civilians as cover and fodder or by Suicide bombers???



I guess you choose to ignore my earlier post. So my response to your post is to read my earlier post.


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## Novice09

faithfulguy said:


> I guess you choose to ignore my earlier post. So my response to your post is to read my earlier post.



Did I replied your post


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## Hellfire

indianrabbit said:


> One of the reason why IA downplays Arjun's performance is because DRDO does not give them cuts.
> While someone who has used both in IA said Arjun is good tank. I read that in Arjun's thread here.



off the facts here buddy ...... while its true that there is an invariable exchange of some funds in every defence deal (and this holds true even for US) absolute generalisation can not be done and any such insinuation clearly shows a lack of clarity in understanding something called Perspective Planning in any Armed Forces (especially in IA which has a Directorate for Perspective Planning under IHQ-MOD)

Arjun's platform was only ready for induction after rectification of all drawbacks by 2006. Whereas to be seriously considered the same should have been achieved way back in 1997-98. By the time of Op Parakaram getting over, a need for urgent modernisation had been adequately drawn home.

now, inducting the same is of no use (for even the T-90s will be relegated to 2nd line of tanks by 2020) and the Dte of PP has clear ideas as to what it wants the army to be in 2020 under vision 2020, a project which is ongoing and being finetuned to supersede vision 2015. 

induction of Arjun at this stage will entail complete overhaul of exiting structures in terms of administrative and logistical set ups. In addition add to it the costs of carriages, induction of bridging equipment in tremendous numbers etc etc which are additional costs. This is entail infusion of massive capital which may result in depletion of funds meant for modernisation/undertaking additional tasks within the army. So the economic and administrative sense does not come into picture

And there is yet no view of Abhay ... Project Abhay is not likely to be anything more than a term ... and we may end up upgrading the ICVs with BMP-3/BMP-T Termintors to replace the BMP-2 Saraths as more units are mechanised and converted to dual modes (mechanised in plains and normal infantry in mountains). So the asynchronous systems will be funny even if you have Arjun inducted (in terms of mechanised and armoured offensive operations)

just try to correlate things here and they shall fall into place
regards

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## ptldM3

faithfulguy said:


> *He is not anti-Russia*. He just believe that the latest US weaponry is the world's best. Which is a consensus view world wide.
> 
> The Chinese guys and the Pakistani buys believe in that. I guess only some Indians in here believe that US weaponry is #2 behind India. Totally bias and lack of logic.



I guess you missed the part were he said "*i hate Russians*"



lockh33d said:


> These are just add-on technologies to the chassis and turret, which still are redesigns or recycles of the T-72, which was rolled on by the Abrams in both Iraqi wars, though the former war was more impressive, since the A1 variant is an 80's platform, around the same time(Albeit a bit later) than the Soviet T-72.



Again most tanks the Abrams destroyed were not T-72's, and the tanks Iraq has lacked basic capabilities that Russian tanks had. Not to mention the Iraqi army was incompedent. Congradulations, to the Abrams for destroying T-55's and some Iraqi made tanks without night vision capabilities.



lockh33d said:


> Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's *can't penetrate the Depleted *U layer to begin with.



Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where *25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds *from an unidentified weapon *disabled a US tank near Najaf after *penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade *(RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartmen*
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml

As of March *2005*, approximately *80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks*

*23 M1A1s were taken out of service in the Gulf*[10] and one of these losses resulted in crew deaths from Iraqi fire.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkidrP...*http&#37;3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams


Western experts regard the Merkava as the best protected tank in the world. With that being said, the Merkava's got punished in Lebonon with Russian RPG's, so were does that put the Abrams?





lockh33d said:


> What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.






You're contridicting yourself. First, the Abrams armour can't be penatrated, then most Abrams were destroyed with Mavericks. FYI roadside bombs have taken out scores of Abrams, and you have to remember the blast from a road side bomb is *not concintrated like a 125 mm round is.*

You know what Russian RPG's did to the Merkava, there shouldn't even be any debating what it can do to the Abrams.

And please explain why the American would bomb their own tanks via mavericks and AGM-114's. It's a fact that the US military salvages everything. 



lockh33d said:


> And back then, the Abrams only existed in the A1 variant, without all the state of the art electrics that the SEP version comes packaged in today. Thus, I say it was a fairly even match, especially when only *~200-300 *of them were sent in to fight from the start, to outmatch and outgun more than 1:3 in the war. FYI, those were Abram kills alone, not air kills.



The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: *A total of 1,848 *M1A1 and M1A1 

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyK4J...rity.org/military/systems/ground/m1-intro.htm

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## Hellfire

lockh33d said:


> Haha, hilarious! Having 1.5K bhp @ ~60t is world class now? Basically, if I integrate 3 twin turbos and add a few weigts to my car+throw in a few machines guns, my car would become a world class tank too? Buddy, it's not about the paper specs, but rather about the secret features which it holds. Why is the M1 such a featured tank? Answer? It's depleted U armor, capable of fending off multiple 125's.



can u please elaborate on Kanchan type armour (with further DU reinforcements) which is being graded as mk. II and if it is same as some car's body? it shall be really interesting to know your insights into the composite armour we have and the one which you have on M1A2!!!

And about multiple 125's being fended off ... may i assure you that it holds for only HEAT/HESH shaped and not KE penetrators ...... 

now am sure you shall be able to add up KE penetrators lest we deviate

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## Hellfire

faithfulguy said:


> In terms of weaponry, the US is miles ahead of others. Everyone else is gunning for the distant 2nd. Its like some Olympic competitoin, we know who is going to win the gold. Its the battle for the silver that is interesting.
> 
> So if something is a good or a junk is all relative to what its compare with. The Abram tank had proven its mark in battle. The one tank it had encountered is the T-72. And Abram definitely owns T-72 in the Iraqi desert. As for T-90 Vs M1A2, I would be very surprise if T-90 can compete against M1A2.



please go to iraqi army composition in armour and republican guards and the type of tanks held ....

also please go through KE penetrators deployed by US with DU head and M1A1s deployed by Armoured Div there with DU reinforcement to the composite armours

in addition go through data on direct Iraqi tank losses in a head to head confrontation without any air back up ... 

you shall be surprised at your lack of knowledge about Gulf War I


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## Novice09

I'm missing Arjun Tank


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## amarnath

Novice09 said:


> I'm missing Arjun Tank



Why do u have to miss it buddy, we already have 45 Arjuns in service, and after these trials we will have more of them...


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## Novice09

amarnath said:


> Why do u have to miss it buddy, we already have 45 Arjuns in service, and after these trials we will have more of them...



On this thread Bhai  Abrams, T-72, T-55 

Sorry for providing incomplete information


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## Hellfire

lockh33d said:


> And back then, the Abrams only existed in the A1 variant, without all the state of the art electrics that the SEP version comes packaged in today. *Thus, I say it was a fairly even match, especially when only ~200-300 of them were sent in to fight from the start, to outmatch and outgun more than 1:3 in the war. FYI, those were Abram kills alone, not air kills*.



any links to substantiated portion? I missed it somehow inspite of extensive reading


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## Hellfire

lockh33d said:


> Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's can't penetrate the Depleted U layer to begin with.



Oh really??? I hope you are referring ONLY to HEAT/HESHs here and NOT KE Projectiles sir ......




lockh33d said:


> What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.



useless RPG??? Specs of RPG-18 will shed some light on the issue as also a comparative analysis in terms of M1A2 armour protection ....!


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## Hellfire

amarnath said:


> Why do u have to miss it buddy, we already have 45 Arjuns in service, and after these trials we will have more of them...



no chances .... its a political exercise .... you need to justify the costs which have to be incurred to field a new system in 1000s (not a few scores here) without having a life expectancy beyond next 10 years ...... as also lacking a suitable ICV/APC to be effective in mechanized warfare which is a cornerstone of the new cold start doctrine


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## ptldM3

hellfire said:


> any links to substantiated portion? I missed it somehow inspite of extensive reading



Either someone is wrong or someone is lying becaue this is what i found:

The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of *1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 *"Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the US Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).

M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank


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## Hellfire

ptldM3 said:


> Either someone is wrong or someone is lying becaue this is what i found:
> 
> The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of *1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 *"Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the US Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).
> 
> M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank




seems exaggeration of little bit of info here to suggestions of high T-72 kill with insignificant armour assets in place.
actually i saw the whole discussion going awry ....

there was a claim of high kill ratios achieved against T-72s .... which was surprising as there was no direct significant confrontation of republican guards with US and T-72s were held by Republican Guards Division and not Iraqi Regular Army Armour Corps ... which was already a load of crap 

plus they had use of APFSDs on US side and Iraqi had none ..... and by that time the M1A1 was DU protected which was introduced as an emergency add on before onset of war in 1991. only US Marines M-60s were the ones not having the same ......

as for invincibility .... well any tandem warhead of a modern RPG (RPG-18) can penetrate with some effect with multiple effort and a good KE projectile (APFSD Sabot) can definitely go through in first shot ..... 

now the only positive side which is noteworthy is that there has always been a stress on air cover for US armour .... as a result of which an opposing tank is neutralised well before its able to fire at M1s or even if it is ..... it is immediately neutralised ....

What has been the success attribute is not the piece, but the US precision of conduct of operations with adequate cover and ensuring superior employment of firepower and assets ..... which is a force multiplier on its own

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## karan.1970

seiko said:


> now you are contradicting your self?who came up with Abrams vs T-90 here..is it our idea?you got a chance and you jump on bashing Indians and now playing innocent..tell me where did that statement came up dude??that T-90 is better than Abrams from our side so there is no need for the comparative trial?



Well in context of India/Pakistan, actually T-90 is better than M1A1/A2 and so is Al-khalid since the nearest M1A1/2 is a few thousand miles away and niether side can get their hands on it for foreseeable future. That way F22 is better that mig 29 or J 10 but does that make a difference to Indo Pak China situation.. It doesnt.. So lets try and get back to Arjun and whether it will make the cut or not..


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## Hellfire

karan.1970 said:


> Well in context of India/Pakistan, actually T-90 is better than M1A1/A2 and so is Al-khalid since the nearest M1A1/2 is a few thousand miles away and niether side can get their hands on it for foreseeable future. That way F22 is better that mig 29 or J 10 but does that make a difference to Indo Pak China situation.. It doesnt.. So lets try and get back to Arjun and whether it will make the cut or not..



actually coming back to arjun, the whole thread will end in next 2 posts .....

RIP Arjun. That is all one can say ....... the IA has moved on, DRDO and Politicos and do what they want, but its the end of the road for Arjun and DRDO in this issue 

IN tried to still repose faith in DRDO with HAL Tejas Naval version but look where it got them ..... and the damn thing is flying atleast !!!!!

I shudder to think about the ATV project .......!!!!!!


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## Novice09

karan.1970 said:


> Well in context of India/Pakistan, actually T-90 is better than M1A1/A2 and so is Al-khalid since the nearest M1A1/2 is a few thousand miles away and niether side can get their hands on it for foreseeable future. That way F22 is better that mig 29 or J 10 but does that make a difference to Indo Pak China situation.. It doesnt.. So lets try and get back to Arjun and whether it will make the cut or not..



@karan.1970
Should I summarize ur post b4 someone start thinking that you are saying that M1A1/A2 and F-22 are inferior to mentioned ones:

Since, Pakistan and India are not going to have M1A1/A2 and F-22 in near future, What they have is better for them 

If I got it wrong, feel free to suggest amendments


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## ambidex

Sravan said:


> ^^^^^^^
> well i believe IGNORANCE IS BLISS now



I would rather tell him that Arjun is night vision capable.... brother!


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## karan.1970

Novice09 said:


> @karan.1970
> Should I summarize ur post b4 someone start thinking that you are saying that M1A1/A2 and F-22 are inferior to mentioned ones:
> 
> Since, Pakistan and India are not going to have M1A1/A2 and F-22 in near future, What they have is better for them
> 
> If I got it wrong, feel free to suggest amendments



Yes... Yes.. Please...this is exactly what I meant..


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## xuxu1457

the "sinking" heavy M1A1

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## amarnath

xuxu1457 said:


> the "sinking" heavy M1A1



I love that bro, keep goin


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## xuxu1457

Be attacked by Taliban,but it still alive and have no through injury,we have to say that the M1A1 ...poor child!!

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## xuxu1457



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## beckham

ptldM3 said:


> Well the T-90 can penatrate 950 mm of armour compared with Abrams 790 mm. It can detection night targets at ranges as far as 1,100 meters. It's capable of firing anti tank missles. The Shtora-1 jams weapons guided laser systems, as does the 3D6 aerosol grenade discharging systems.
> 
> Does the Abrams even have protection beyond its armour?
> 
> The Abrams isn't as invisible as you may think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just google destroyed Abrams and you will see countless images.



Thats what happens when a $6.21 million tank don't have *well developed APS.

T90`s defences are one of the best in the world, a three-tiered protection systems made up of composite armour, Kontakt-5 ERA and an APS. *


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## xuxu1457

beckham said:


> Thats what happens when a $6.21 million tank don't have *well developed APS.
> 
> T90`s defences are one of the best in the world, a three-tiered protection systems made up of composite armour, Kontakt-5 ERA and an APS. *



The two are all destroyed from the bottom,no matter with its defence


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## beckham

xuxu1457 said:


> The two are all destroyed from the bottom,no matter with its defence



But, an APS could have given them better chances of survival against an RPG or ATGM.

Check this out,


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## xuxu1457

beckham said:


> But, an APS could have given them better chances of survival against an RPG or ATGM.
> 
> Check this out,
> 
> yyXY7sfajS8[/media] - T-90 Active Protection Systems
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> FCS Quick Kill[/url]



I don't believe the armor of Russian,their composite materials technology established on the basis of the Soviet Union time,and can't keep up with the trend.The Russia lost many skilled worker and scientists in the past 20 years


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## Khajur

hellfire said:


> off the facts here buddy ...... while its true that there is an invariable exchange of some funds in every defence deal (and this holds true even for US) absolute generalisation can not be done and any such insinuation clearly shows a lack of clarity in understanding something called Perspective Planning in any Armed Forces (especially in IA which has a Directorate for Perspective Planning under IHQ-MOD)
> 
> Arjun's platform was only ready for induction after rectification of all drawbacks by 2006. Whereas to be seriously considered the same should have been achieved way back in 1997-98. By the time of Op Parakaram getting over, a need for urgent modernisation had been adequately drawn home.
> 
> now, inducting the same is of no use (for even the T-90s will be relegated to 2nd line of tanks by 2020) and the Dte of PP has clear ideas as to what it wants the army to be in 2020 under vision 2020, a project which is ongoing and being finetuned to supersede vision 2015.
> 
> induction of Arjun at this stage will entail complete overhaul of exiting structures in terms of administrative and logistical set ups. In addition add to it the costs of carriages, induction of bridging equipment in tremendous numbers etc etc which are additional costs. This is entail infusion of massive capital which may result in depletion of funds meant for modernisation/undertaking additional tasks within the army. So the economic and administrative sense does not come into picture
> 
> And there is yet no view of Abhay ... Project Abhay is not likely to be anything more than a term ... and we may end up upgrading the ICVs with BMP-3/BMP-T Termintors to replace the BMP-2 Saraths as more units are mechanised and converted to dual modes (mechanised in plains and normal infantry in mountains). So the asynchronous systems will be funny even if you have Arjun inducted (in terms of mechanised and armoured offensive operations)
> 
> just try to correlate things here and they shall fall into place
> regards


There are few questions that rises in everyones mind on Arjun MBT vs T-90

1.why army is deliberately trying to avoid the comparative tests of Arjun MBT vs T-90 for so long??

If Arjun was found to inferior its fate'll be sealed and army can move with more T-90 i guess.

2.Our Army chief admitted that only 20&#37; of our tanks can fight in the night times while pakistan and china have 80% and 100% capablility in that matter.

If T-90 is nighttime capable??
when would other legacy tanks in the Tseries becomes night time capable??
And how army is planning to replace these old tanks and by what ??

Talkng about T-90,it comes with its one set of problems.
*T-90 rigged with engine problems and its has cooling issues in extreme heat conditions of Rajastan .It looks like IA ran out of money to put AC in these tanks.*

3.IA might be right that it like to have more lighter T-90s fro its cold start doctrine.
But what happens when cold start gives way for a hot ended battle ??

If Argun is proven to be reliable and sturdy in the comparative tests ,i think IA shouldn't hesitate to go for more Arjun.



*Btw,if one goes by the billions of dollors worth shoping spree of foreign armaments made by indian armed force every yr and sort of strong hesitation to buy indigenous product made by DRDO...i feel if Americans or russians were ready to sell IRBM's or ICBM's, our IA & IAF personnels would have been flocking at their doorsteps & our Prithvi's & Agni's would have been placed in museums*.

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## Veer

Khajur said:


> There are few questions that rises in everyones mind on Arjun MBT vs T-90
> 
> 1.why army is deliberately trying to avoid the comparative tests of Arjun MBT vs T-90 for so long??
> 
> If Arjun was found to inferior its fate'll be sealed and army can move with more T-90 i guess.
> 
> 2.Our Army chief admitted that only 20% of our tanks can fight in the night times while pakistan and china have 80% and 100% capablility in that matter.
> 
> If T-90 is nighttime capable??
> when would other legacy tanks in the Tseries becomes night time capable??
> And how army is planning to replace these old tanks and by what ??
> 
> Talkng about T-90,it comes with its one set of problems.
> *T-90 rigged with engine problems and its has cooling issues in extreme heat conditions of Rajastan .It looks like IA ran out of money to put AC in these tanks.*
> 
> 3.IA might be right that it like to have more lighter T-90s fro its cold start doctrine.
> But what happens when cold start gives way for a hot ended battle ??
> 
> If Argun is proven to be reliable and sturdy in the comparative tests ,i think IA shouldn't hesitate to go for more Arjun.
> 
> 
> 
> *Btw,if one goes by the billions of dollors worth shoping spree of foreign armaments made by indian armed force every yr and sort of strong hesitation to buy indigenous product made by DRDO...i feel if Americans or russians were ready to sell IRBM's or ICBM's, our IA & IAF personnels would have been flocking at their doorsteps & our Prithvi's & Agni's would have been placed in museums*.



I will go one by one.

1.) For politicians and bureaucrats all the deal = US$$$$$$$, There is a fetish for foreign items, at the Arjun's time MS Yadav was the defense minister need i say more. If you have denounced something for years how can you suddenly accept it with open arms, it will lower their credibility and everybody get to know the whole truth.

2.) The tank have no problem with Chinese borders being mountain regions and also cooler areas. Even with Pakistan there is no problem in Punjab sector, the real problem is the summer of Thar Desert. In winter there is no problem.
If a war broke out with Pakistan in summer the real tank battle ground will be Rajhastan even the atomic war if it will happen will be on this area, as Pakistan will not want its Punjab/Lahore/Multan to be wiped out. The high temperature in summer of Rajasthan desert causes damage to the night vision devices and some time they don't work or works in parts.

This types of problems occurs in all professional armies and get sorted out immediately but in India it takes a lengthy bureaucratic route.

*What do you think Pakistan has all the system/weapons up to date and running fine?*

It's just they are more secretive and their military does not allow it to come out.

*Yes, T-90s are night capable as well as Arjun. By 2020 we will have enough MBTs to rock n roll.*

*IMO, the night vision devices will be there in India within this year.*

3.) Arjun will prove its metal, it's world's only tank gone under so much trials, third party assessment etc.

Remember they are not going to select a winner it's just a comparative tests. *No matter what will be the outcome of the test T-90 is a very good tank and same is hold true for Arjun.*

The test will give army a reason and they will say the Arjun have grown up with time so we are going to order some x number of them.


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## kashith

xuxu1457 said:


> I don't believe the armor of Russian,their composite materials technology established on the basis of the Soviet Union time,and can't keep up with the trend.The Russia lost many skilled worker and scientists in the past 20 years



Well they are still far ahead of anything other than US has to offer.They did lost a decade but still they are back in game...


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## beckham

Veer said:


> I will go one by one.
> 
> 1.) For politicians and bureaucrats all the deal = US$$$$$$$, There is a fetish for foreign items, at the Arjun's time MS Yadav was the defense minister need i say more. If you have denounced something for years how can you suddenly accept it with open arms, it will lower their credibility and everybody get to know the whole truth.
> 
> *2.) The tank have no problem with Chinese borders being mountain regions and also cooler areas. Even with Pakistan there is no problem in Punjab sector, the real problem is the summer of Thar Desert. In winter there is no problem.
> If a war broke out with Pakistan in summer the real tank battle ground will be Rajhastan even the atomic war if it will happen will be on this area, as Pakistan will not want its Punjab/Lahore/Multan to be wiped out. The high temperature in summer of Rajasthan desert causes damage to the night vision devices and some time they don't work or works in parts.*
> 
> This types of problems occurs in all professional armies and get sorted out immediately but in India it takes a lengthy bureaucratic route.
> 
> What do you think Pakistan has all the system/weapons up to date and running fine?
> 
> It's just they are more secretive and their military does not allow it to come out.
> 
> Yes, T-90s are night capable as well as Arjun. By 2020 we will have enough MBTs to rock n roll.
> 
> IMO, the night vision devices will be there in India within this year.
> 
> 3.) Arjun will prove its metal, it's world's only tank gone under so much trials, third party assessment etc.
> 
> Remember they are not going to select a winner it's just a comparative tests. No matter what will be the outcome of the test T-90 is a very good tank and same is hold true for Arjun.
> 
> The test will give army a reason and they will say the Arjun have grown up with time so we are going to order some x number of them.



Veer, all those problems have been sorted out.Check out points 2 and 4 . 

*http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/44475-arjun-mbt-take-t-90-a-3.html#post627509*


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## Icarus

Arjun won't stand a chance, T-90 is an incredible piece of machinery:

Arjun MBT-Mother of all Blunders Media Watchdog Pk

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## Super Falcon

arjun tank is nothing more than a junk very heavy cant move in desert warefare T 90 is better than arjun good system manuverability and i wanna say to you it will be like arjun vs T 72 which india has still T 72 gonnna register its kill on your arjun 

china getting JF 17 and other aircraft which she it self produce but india if produce good arjun tank than why they buy T 90 they should make arjun 2 but arjun is failure they cant continue with arjun and still it is not inducted in your army still prototype in army

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## paritosh

Khajur said:


> There are few questions that rises in everyones mind on Arjun MBT vs T-90
> 
> 1.why army is deliberately trying to avoid the comparative tests of Arjun MBT vs T-90 for so long??
> 
> If Arjun was found to inferior its fate'll be sealed and army can move with more T-90 i guess.
> 
> 2.Our Army chief admitted that only 20% of our tanks can fight in the night times while pakistan and china have 80% and 100% capablility in that matter.
> 
> If T-90 is nighttime capable??
> when would other legacy tanks in the Tseries becomes night time capable??
> And how army is planning to replace these old tanks and by what ??
> 
> Talkng about T-90,it comes with its one set of problems.
> *T-90 rigged with engine problems and its has cooling issues in extreme heat conditions of Rajastan .It looks like IA ran out of money to put AC in these tanks.*
> 
> 3.IA might be right that it like to have more lighter T-90s fro its cold start doctrine.
> But what happens when cold start gives way for a hot ended battle ??
> 
> If Argun is proven to be reliable and sturdy in the comparative tests ,i think IA shouldn't hesitate to go for more Arjun.
> 
> 
> 
> *Btw,if one goes by the billions of dollors worth shoping spree of foreign armaments made by indian armed force every yr and sort of strong hesitation to buy indigenous product made by DRDO...i feel if Americans or russians were ready to sell IRBM's or ICBM's, our IA & IAF personnels would have been flocking at their doorsteps & our Prithvi's & Agni's would have been placed in museums*.



well I don't know about the auditors but the army folks actually like the Arjun...it's a good thoroughbred tank.
What goes against the Arjun is that...it's a good tank for this day and age...but a tank needs to be cutting edge for years to come...the arjun was a good tank that should have been inducted a decade back.
Inducting armor is a long process...people higher up have a vision.
that is why we hear of Arjun mkIIs needed.
I have also recently heard about a lot of scmas that happen in the name of equipment testing...
the cancellation of the INSAS bull-pup is a classic case where the fat babus...ate upto 50 crores of public money all in the name of judging the field tests of the INSAS bull-pup...where actually only a paltry 15 lacks were spent!
some things never change


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## paritosh

Super Falcon said:


> but *arjun is failure *they cant continue with arjun and still it is not inducted in your army still prototype in army



not true at all.


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## beckham

Kakgeta said:


> Arjun won't stand a chance, T-90 is an incredible piece of machinery:
> 
> Arjun MBT-Mother of all Blunders Media Watchdog Pk



*WRONG THREAD ! PLZ MOVE THIS POST TO :* Stupid and Funny from all over the world 



> *Personally, I cant think of a better way to waste space on my blog* than to write about a piece of military tech that took more than 3 decades and millions of dollars to develop and was cancelled before the *delivery of about 124 units was completed*, but reading jingoistic *Indian claims that arjun is &#8220;The King of MBTs&#8221; and that it was &#8220;completely indigenous&#8221; compelled me to waste my time on this article.*
> 
> For starters, the Arjun MBT project was given the green light in May 1974 with a budget of Irs.15.5 Crores. The plan was for DRDO to make the tank completely indigenous. However without even going into details one can guess the extent of failure of the project by the fact that the first five units were not delivered until 2004 and the DRDO had spent more than Irs.300 Crores on the project by 1995. As for the indigenous part, the tank was co-designed by the firm that made the Leopard tank &#8220; Krauss Maffei&#8220; and more then 50&#37; of the tank&#8217;s parts were either German or French, including the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.
> 
> The Arjun weighs almost 60 tonnes, making it a logistic disaster. Infact the Indian Army&#8217;s logistic Department had to make harder and larger carriages for transporting the Arjun by rail. *It is also known that only a few (undisclosed number) Arjuns can be transported by rail at one time on one train without causing irreparable damage to the railway lines.* The Arjun is one of two tanks in the world (Challenger being the other) to incorporate rifled guns. Most of the world has moved over to smooth-bore guns. The problem with rifled guns is that they cannot fire at the same target twice with out arranging it again after each fire. A painstakingly difficult and time consuming process. Defiantly not something one could do every time in a battle situation. The Challenger tank overcomes this problem by a unique system that fires a tracer round at the target and a computer then makes corrections to the trajectory of the bullet and fires another. When the bullet is in line with the target, it means the tank is ready to fire, however, Arjun has no such system. The gun also has to be loaded manually thus adding another member to the crew.
> 
> The Arjun program has been plagued with problems, ever since the first prototype rolled out of DRDO. If I start mentioning all known problems i fear it might take me my whole life to finish this article so I will list only the important ones that were reported by Indian Army itself in various trials.
> 
> *1) Suspension has to be replaced every 150kms.*
> 
> *2) Engine fails at temperature of 50C.*
> 
> 3) Tank&#8217;s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner&#8217;s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic in temperature over 50C.
> 
> 4) The Arjun tank was fielded during the Ashwamedha exercise in the deserts of Rajasthan. The army was extremely unhappy with the tank, citing 14 defects that included &#8220;deficient fire control system&#8221;. &#8220;inaccuracy of its guns&#8221;, &#8220;low speeds in tactical areas&#8221;, and &#8220;inability to operate over 50 degrees Celsius&#8221;.
> 
> 5) In winter trials in 2007,* Arjun&#8217;s engine had to be replaced 4 times, surprisingly DRDO blamed the failiure of the tank on Pakistan, alleging that Pakistan had ordered agents to sabotage the tank.*
> 
> 6) *Engine had to be replaced every 250Kms* in 2008 summer trials, This was also attributed to sabotage but the allegation was later withdrawn.
> 
> On handing over of Arjuns to Indian Army in 2009, Lt General Dalip Bharadwaj, the Director General for the Mechanized Infantry tried to disguise his embarrassment for recieving such worthless peices of trash by saying that : &#8220;the joint effort and the will to succeed against odds displayed by various agencies in putting out MBT Arjun proved to the world that India was a force to reckon with when it came to weapon design capabilities. The Army, which was proud to possess the tank, was confident that MBT Arjun would rank among the best tanks in the world&#8221;.
> 
> The things people will say to try and hide their mistakes&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;



Now thats what I call an expert analysis !

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## Chanakyaa

I dont see the point in bringing out the facts, which are history.

The tank is going to prove itself against one of the best tanks of the world.. This confidance speaks volumes about the "New improved " design. 

Today india is making Gen 4.5 fighters, nuclear subs and moon missions dont u guys think its not that difficult 4 us, to make a world class tank?

the people pointing fingers may be right abt past. 
This test is gonna change it.


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## Gazzi

Wouldn't put too high hopes on T90

--------

Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army
Daily News & Updates
Dated 13/6/2006

Chandigarh: Inducted to serve as India's main battle tank just over three years ago, the Army's fleet of Russian-built T-90s have run into serious trouble.

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

According to Jane&#65533;s Defence Weekly, the tank&#65533;s continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Army&#65533;s operational preparedness."

Confirming the Jane&#65533;s report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90&#65533;s Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55&#65533;C and 60&#65533;C.

During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.

The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tank&#65533;s systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90&#65533;s total cost of Rs 11.75 crores.

One of the options currently being explored to rectify the FCS is to locally develop an airconditioning plant for the TI camera. For this, a former director-general of mechanised forces is understood to have already held discussions with some French manufacturers, including Thales (which makes the Catherine TI cameras). However, neither this nor the local vendors called in by the DRDO have had any success in this matter.

The Army, incidentally, does not have a D-G for its mechanised forces after Lt. Gen. G.D. Singh became deputy chief of staff at Army Headquarters recently. Under the circumstances, it could take any new D-G who is appointed quite a while before he can adequately address the T-90&#65533;s problems, possibly further delaying the MBT&#65533;s operational preparedness.

The problem of successfully integrating the Catherine TI camera with the Belarussian IG-46 sight is also believed to have considerably delayed the licensed production of T-90s at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. Sources said the indigenous T-90 production, as part of the transfer of technology agreement signed with Russia, which was scheduled to begin in 2006, has been deferred after problems were encountered in fitting out the FCS in assembled tanks. Of the total of 310 T-90 tanks, 124 were bought fully formed and kits were imported for the remaining 186 to be assembled at Avadi. The first locally-assembled T-90s rolled out of the HVF in January 2004, but these too have run into problems with the FCS.

According to the transfer of technology agreement, the T-90&#65533;s IG-46 sights were to be made at the Opto Electrics Factory at Dehra Dun, the gun at the Ordnance Factory Board facility at Rishikesh and its 1,000-horsepower engine by Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. All the three projects stand deferred, official sources said.

The T-90s are also facing a host of other problems, including a nearly exhausted inventory of ammunition. The tank&#65533;s 125 mm smooth-bore gun is electronically configured to fire imported Russian AMK-338 and AMK-339 shells, the supply of which has run out after innumerable exercises.

Surprisingly, the T-90&#65533;s gun has not been configured to fire the Indian-made AMK-340 shells. These shells have turned out rather dubious in quality, with over 150,000 rounds having to be destroyed, leading to the loss of over Rs 700 crores. Some AMK-340 shells have even burst inside the tanks, killing crew members, in at least one instance at Babina. Armoured Corps officers said many tank crews, who feared the shells would explode inside the barrel, had refused to use the faulty ammunition, and when forced to do so went to elaborate lengths, enabling them to fire from outside the tank.

According to the Armoured Corps officers, the ordnance factory board had triple-packed the 125 mm AMK-340 shells with propellant, but without adequate packing in between the layers to prevent leakage at high temperatures in which they are stored, often under the open sun. This had led not only to a near-complete freeze on regular firings but also "severely dented" the confidence of tank crews, sources said.

The Secunderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), which was scheduled to start production of 9M119 Refleks missiles for the T-90 early this year, has also fallen badly behind schedule amid failed trials. BDL is believed to have sought technical assistance from the Russians in building the Refleks (Nato designation: AT-11 Sniper) missile.

It was the T-90&#65533;s missile-firing capability that had initially clinched the Army&#65533;s decision in its favour way back in 2001. But with BDL unable to supply the missiles and the endless problems with the fire control system, many officers are of the view that the tank appears little better than the already proven T-72, also currently in service with the Indian Army.


Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army | India Defence


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## lockh33d

gogbot said:


> Shut up, we have been friends for years. I have known him longer than you.
> 
> He has for some reason he has decided to be Anti-Russian.
> 
> No matter how much i try i cant change his mind.
> 
> He be entitled to his own POV so i let him be, just warning others not to waste their time. He is commited to be Anti-russia.



Who on Earth are you? Last time I checked, you're just another Indian trolling around on these forums.



gogbot said:


> what reason does the US have to attack India or Australia.



US does not share a healthy appetite with India overall. Down the road, I don't see there to be no possibility of the two becoming enemies or arch rivals at the least.

P.S. If you ever make up information to mislead again, I'll report you to a mod for invading my privacy.


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## lockh33d

Novice09 said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/628672-post182.html
> 
> Does those Abrams were down by Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests or by Militants using civilians as cover and fodder or by Suicide bombers???



Learn to read. I said most Abrams were lost to FF. The terrorist attacks were another story, I was merely stating what terror attacks were.


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## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> I guess you missed the part were he said "*i hate Russians*"



I have my reasons.



ptldM3 said:


> Again most tanks the Abrams destroyed were not T-72's, and the tanks Iraq has lacked basic capabilities that Russian tanks had. Not to mention the Iraqi army was incompedent. Congradulations, to the Abrams for destroying T-55's and some Iraqi made tanks without night vision capabilities.



Can you prove this? The book I read said otherwise. Your source might change my view on this.



ptldM3 said:


> Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where *25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds *from an unidentified weapon *disabled a US tank near Najaf after *penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade *(RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartmen*
> Abrams tank showed 'vulnerability' in Iraq - Jane's Land Forces News



In the second Iraqi invasion, yes. Gulf war, no.

"During the ground war, only seven M1A1's were hit by rounds fired from the Iraqi's T-72 tanks, with none being seriously damaged. The Army reported that the Iraqi armed forces "destroyed no Abrams tanks during the Persian Gulf War."22 Nine Abrams tanks were destroyed during the war: seven due to friendly fire and two were intentionally destroyed to prevent capture after they became disabled.23 One incident in particular demonstrates the effectiveness of armor-piercing rounds and tank armor made of depleted uranium. As allied forces pushed into southern Iraq at the start of the ground war, an M1A1 tank became stuck in the mud."

Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU



ptldM3 said:


> As of March *2005*, approximately *80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks*



Those are all from the second Iraqi invasion, most loses from the A1 variant after the Iraqi armed forces better equipped themselves the second time round.



ptldM3 said:


> *23 M1A1s were taken out of service in the Gulf*[10] and one of these losses resulted in crew deaths from Iraqi fire.
> 
> M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Source:Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU



ptldM3 said:


> Western experts regard the Merkava as the best protected tank in the world. With that being said, the Merkava's got punished in Lebonon with Russian RPG's, so were does that put the Abrams?



Merkava is not an Abram is it? Any test to show that it's better? A direct comparison perhaps?








ptldM3 said:


> You're contridicting yourself. First, the Abrams armour can't be penatrated, then most Abrams were destroyed with Mavericks. FYI roadside bombs have taken out scores of Abrams, and you have to remember the blast from a road side bomb is *not concintrated like a 125 mm round is.*



If you understood the context of my view I was coming from, you would have understood that I was talking about Iraqi weapons. The Maverick and Hellfire missiles can destroy any armor on this planet. As for Iraqi gear imported from Russia? Well that can't destroy M1's I'm sorry.



ptldM3 said:


> You know what Russian RPG's did to the Merkava, there shouldn't even be any debating what it can do to the Abrams.



Read above, Abrams are not Merkava's.



ptldM3 said:


> And please explain why the American would bomb their own tanks via mavericks and AGM-114's. It's a fact that the US military salvages everything.



Because of bad information relay, and to prevent enemies from stealing US equipment and technology.



ptldM3 said:


> The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: *A total of 1,848 *M1A1 and M1A1
> 
> M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank



Again, sources differ and vary. But congrats to your source for running along the same lines as what you want to believe.


----------



## lockh33d

hellfire said:


> seems exaggeration of little bit of info here to suggestions of high T-72 kill with insignificant armour assets in place.
> actually i saw the whole discussion going awry ....
> 
> there was a claim of high kill ratios achieved against T-72s .... which was surprising as there was no direct significant confrontation of republican guards with US and T-72s were held by Republican Guards Division and not Iraqi Regular Army Armour Corps ... which was already a load of crap
> 
> plus they had use of APFSDs on US side and Iraqi had none ..... and by that time the M1A1 was DU protected which was introduced as an emergency add on before onset of war in 1991. only US Marines M-60s were the ones not having the same ......
> 
> as for invincibility .... well any tandem warhead of a modern RPG (RPG-18) can penetrate with some effect with multiple effort and a good KE projectile (APFSD Sabot) can definitely go through in first shot .....
> 
> now the only positive side which is noteworthy is that there has always been a stress on air cover for US armour .... as a result of which an opposing tank is neutralised well before its able to fire at M1s or even if it is ..... it is immediately neutralised ....
> 
> What has been the success attribute is not the piece, but the US precision of conduct of operations with adequate cover and ensuring superior employment of firepower and assets ..... which is a force multiplier on its own



"The unit (part of the 24th Infantry Division) had gone on, leaving this tank to wait for a recovery vehicle. Three T-72's appeared and attacked. The first fired from under 1,000 meters, scoring a hit with a shaped-charge (high explosive) round on the M1A1's frontal armor. The hit did no damage. The M1A1 fired a 120mm armor-piercing (DU) round that penetrated the T-72 turret, causing an explosion that blew the turret into the air. The second T-72 fired another shaped-charge round, hit the frontal armor, and did no damage. The T-72 turned to run, and took a 120mm round in the engine compartment (which) blew the engine into the air. The last T-72 fired a solid shot (sabot) round from 400 meters. This left a groove in the M1A1's frontal armor and bounced off. The T-72 then backed up behind a sand berm and was completely concealed from view. The M1A1 depressed its gun and put a (DU) sabot round through the berm, into the T-72, causing an explosion.24"

A nice combo of HEAT's and Ek rounds.

Source: Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU


----------



## lockh33d

hellfire said:


> any links to substantiated portion? I missed it somehow inspite of extensive reading



A good book I read at my local library a few years ago.


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## lockh33d

hellfire said:


> seems exaggeration of little bit of info here to suggestions of high T-72 kill with insignificant armour assets in place.
> actually i saw the whole discussion going awry ....
> 
> there was a claim of high kill ratios achieved against T-72s .... which was surprising as there was no direct significant confrontation of republican guards with US and T-72s were held by Republican Guards Division and not Iraqi Regular Army Armour Corps ... which was already a load of crap
> 
> plus they had use of APFSDs on US side and Iraqi had none ..... and by that time the M1A1 was DU protected which was introduced as an emergency add on before onset of war in 1991. only US Marines M-60s were the ones not having the same ......
> 
> as for invincibility .... well any tandem warhead of a modern RPG (RPG-18) can penetrate with some effect with multiple effort and a good KE projectile (APFSD Sabot) can definitely go through in first shot .....
> 
> now the only positive side which is noteworthy is that there has always been a stress on air cover for US armour .... as a result of which an opposing tank is neutralised well before its able to fire at M1s or even if it is ..... it is immediately neutralised ....
> 
> What has been the success attribute is not the piece, but the US precision of conduct of operations with adequate cover and ensuring superior employment of firepower and assets ..... which is a force multiplier on its own



The Iraqis had Sabots and HE rounds. That's the most you can ask for from the ME nation. Read below:

The unit (part of the 24th Infantry Division) had gone on, leaving this tank to wait for a recovery vehicle. Three T-72's appeared and attacked. The first fired from under 1,000 meters, scoring a hit with a shaped-charge (high explosive) round on the M1A1's frontal armor. The hit did no damage. The M1A1 fired a 120mm armor-piercing (DU) round that penetrated the T-72 turret, causing an explosion that blew the turret into the air. The second T-72 fired another shaped-charge round, hit the frontal armor, and did no damage. The T-72 turned to run, and took a 120mm round in the engine compartment (which) blew the engine into the air. The last T-72 fired a solid shot (sabot) round from 400 meters. This left a groove in the M1A1's frontal armor and bounced off. The T-72 then backed up behind a sand berm and was completely concealed from view. The M1A1 depressed its gun and put a (DU) sabot round through the berm, into the T-72, causing an explosion.24

Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU


----------



## lockh33d

xuxu1457 said:


> the "sinking" heavy M1A1



Haha, you're a joke! We're talking about losses of tanks to enemy fire and here you go, posting images of tanks in a ditch?

There is a difference between a car accident between two parties (Faults on both sides) and a car which drove itself off a bridge, unless you think they're EXACTLY the same?


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## lockh33d

xuxu1457 said:


> Be attacked by Taliban,but it still alive and have no through injury,we have to say that the M1A1 ...poor child!!






beckham said:


> Thats what happens when a $6.21 million tank don't have *well developed APS.
> 
> T90`s defences are one of the best in the world, a three-tiered protection systems made up of composite armour, Kontakt-5 ERA and an APS. *



@ Xu, your images show damaged Abrams, not destroyed ones. We were discussing losses to the enemy, which there were plenty of on the Iraqi side, whom were using mostly T-72's.

@ Beckham, using ERA on tanks with sophisticated armor is simply mental. Why would you want to blow up your own defenses afterall? You know why the Ruskies are using ERA? Because they can't come up with decent composites for their tank armor.


----------



## lockh33d

beckham said:


> But, an APS could have given them better chances of survival against an RPG or ATGM.
> 
> Check this out,
> 
> yyXY7sfajS8[/media] - T-90 Active Protection Systems
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> FCS Quick Kill[/url]



That really depends on what APS system you have installed on the T-90. For one, defense systems on the T-90 most likely incorporate IR/Radar decoys. However, most AT weapons the US military has aren't IR or radar based. E.g. TOW missiles are wire guided, whereas JDAM's have live feeds via satellite with an eye on the real target throughout the course of action.


----------



## beckham

lockh33d said:


> That really depends on what APS system you have installed on the T-90. For one, defense systems on the T-90 most likely incorporate IR/Radar decoys. However, most AT weapons the US military has aren't IR or radar based. E.g. TOW missiles are wire guided, whereas JDAM's have live feeds via satellite with an eye on the real target throughout the course of action.



The APS on Abrams is very crude compared to the Shtora found on T-90.The Shtora system uses laser warning sensors to spot threats at very close range (said to be five meters). *The threat warning is handed over to the countermeasures array, located in strategically located multiple modules, which create a hemispherical coverage of the protected platform. Based on the threat parameters, the best location is selected for activation, launching an explosive charge which creates a strong blast effect (but without much fragments), which counteracts with the incoming projectile .* This system is effective against both CE and KE threats.It can also jams the enemy's semiautomatic command to line of sight (SACLOS) antitank guided missiles, laser rangefinders and target designators. 

There isn't such a high level of active protection in Abrams.Abrams are equipped with just a Missile Countermeasure Device which disrupts the function of guidance systems of semi-active control line-of-sight wire and radio guided anti-tank missiles and thermally and infrared guided missiles (ATGM). It lack the capability to intercept the incoming projectile. (correct me if I am wrong )


----------



## Hellfire

Khajur said:


> 1.why army is deliberately trying to avoid the comparative tests of Arjun MBT vs T-90 for so long??



The rationale is the year the demand for induction of adequate numbers to be made (approximately minimum 500 - a figure for DRDO to recover costs of development) was raised by DRDO - 2006as per its own admission. The aim was cost recovery, not any other issue at the end of the day. Please go through the desert trials in 2000 and subsequently the re-evaluation of the tank again in 2002 and so on. The DRDO was only able to stabilise the piece by 2006 by which time, the army had moved on into phase of induction of T-90s in large numbers for over 5 years ..... how is it possible to introduce a new tank immediately? Maybe you can shed some light on the matter where the decades experience of armed forces failed. Even a rifle as basic as INSAS took over 10 years to be inducted in sufficiently large numbers. The reason: for every weapon introduced you have to have maintenance/repair facilities, production facilities, build of training stocks (which is in thousands of tonnes) in addition to first line ammunition and then there is the war stocks etc etc .... a time and resource consuming process all the more complicated if you are phase of inducting one system and wanting to overide it with another

if you were to look at the present Indian army inventory it stands at approximately:

T-90s : 700+ (and increasing)
T-72s : 2000+
T-55s: approximately 300-500 operational and 800+ in mothball
Vijayants : 500-700 operational and 1000+ in mothball 

T-55 and Vijayants are increasingly being used as pillbox defence in DCB environment along western border ... 



Khajur said:


> If Arjun was found to inferior its fate'll be sealed and army can move with more T-90 i guess.



It was found at the time of induction of a new MBT in IA ..... its like we award MRCA award to Boeing right now and Russians cry 1 year hence about having FGFA ready and India not going for it .... every weapon system has its value of time in terms of technology being introduec. What exactly do you achieve by having comparative trials just now? You are introducing same tech at further costs per piece .... whereas you already have an existing infrastructure, so actually the costs per piece inducted is much lower ....



Khajur said:


> 2.Our Army chief admitted that only 20% of our tanks can fight in the night times while pakistan and china have 80% and 100% capablility in that matter.



difficult to work it out how that figure came up ..... T-72s are well in advanced stages of NV visions and TIs fitment ..... only he can explain this ..... maybe it was to throw another whammy after the dual war issue 



Khajur said:


> If T-90 is nighttime capable??
> when would other legacy tanks in the Tseries becomes night time capable??
> And how army is planning to replace these old tanks and by what ??



T-90 is NV capable .... 100% of them ....
T-72s are in advanced stages of same .... cant put a figure to it but more than 60% is safe bet 
These tanks will begin to be replaced by a suitable platform around 2016 on ..... so if Arjun Mk. II was created and fielded then it may have a better chance than T-95, a likely successor ... although there are unofficial rumors of M1A3 offer by US ..... 



Khajur said:


> Talkng about T-90,it comes with its one set of problems.
> *T-90 rigged with engine problems and its has cooling issues in extreme heat conditions of Rajastan .It looks like IA ran out of money to put AC in these tanks.*



That my friend, is the problem of our political masters! All mechanical equipment breaks down in Rajasthan over extended period of deployment, even something as basic as Ashok Leyland Stallion the mainstay of transport of Indian army !!!!

As for AC ... funds are allocated by MoD ..... and diktats on issues such as this also ..... its being rectified



Khajur said:


> 3.IA might be right that it like to have more lighter T-90s fro its cold start doctrine.
> But what happens when cold start gives way for a hot ended battle ????



oh sorry .... you are confused about the said doctrine .... go to the thread for it .... I have just rejoined teh forum after some absence so shall be posting relevant issues there ... only thing is that Cold start is based on achieving maximal momentum and maintaining a high rate of operations within a very short time to preclude adequate preparation of defences by opposing force ..... it envisions deployment of overwhelming and superior force disproportionate to force opposing it in order to achieve a breakthrough in first few moments of outbreak of hositilities. nothing to do with a formal dance here .....




Khajur said:


> *Btw,if one goes by the billions of dollors worth shoping spree of foreign armaments made by indian armed force every yr and sort of strong hesitation to buy indigenous product made by DRDO...i feel if Americans or russians were ready to sell IRBM's or ICBM's, our IA & IAF personnels would have been flocking at their doorsteps & our Prithvi's & Agni's would have been placed in museums*.



strangely MTCR prevents that or russians would love to do that .... and would have been better ....seeing that Agni is still far from perfect as highlighted by the recently failed user trial

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## xuxu1457

lockh33d said:


> @ Xu, your images show damaged Abrams, not destroyed ones. We were discussing losses to the enemy, which there were plenty of on the Iraqi side, whom were using mostly T-72's.
> 
> @ Beckham, using ERA on tanks with sophisticated armor is simply mental. Why would you want to blow up your own defenses afterall? You know why the Ruskies are using ERA? Because they can't come up with decent composites for their tank armor.



From these injuries I mean :it's very hard to thorough destroy M1A1 by T-72 T-80 or general RPG


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## Hellfire

Gazzi said:


> Wouldn't put too high hopes on T90
> 
> --------
> 
> Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army
> Daily News & Updates
> Dated 13/6/2006
> 
> Chandigarh: Inducted to serve as India's main battle tank just over three years ago, the Army's fleet of Russian-built T-90s have run into serious trouble.
> 
> The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.
> 
> According to Jane&#65533;s Defence Weekly, the tank&#65533;s continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Army&#65533;s operational preparedness."
> 
> Confirming the Jane&#65533;s report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90&#65533;s Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55&#65533;C and 60&#65533;C.
> 
> During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.
> 
> The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tank&#65533;s systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90&#65533;s total cost of Rs 11.75 crores.
> 
> One of the options currently being explored to rectify the FCS is to locally develop an airconditioning plant for the TI camera. For this, a former director-general of mechanised forces is understood to have already held discussions with some French manufacturers, including Thales (which makes the Catherine TI cameras). However, neither this nor the local vendors called in by the DRDO have had any success in this matter.
> 
> The Army, incidentally, does not have a D-G for its mechanised forces after Lt. Gen. G.D. Singh became deputy chief of staff at Army Headquarters recently. Under the circumstances, it could take any new D-G who is appointed quite a while before he can adequately address the T-90&#65533;s problems, possibly further delaying the MBT&#65533;s operational preparedness.
> 
> The problem of successfully integrating the Catherine TI camera with the Belarussian IG-46 sight is also believed to have considerably delayed the licensed production of T-90s at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. Sources said the indigenous T-90 production, as part of the transfer of technology agreement signed with Russia, which was scheduled to begin in 2006, has been deferred after problems were encountered in fitting out the FCS in assembled tanks. Of the total of 310 T-90 tanks, 124 were bought fully formed and kits were imported for the remaining 186 to be assembled at Avadi. The first locally-assembled T-90s rolled out of the HVF in January 2004, but these too have run into problems with the FCS.
> 
> According to the transfer of technology agreement, the T-90&#65533;s IG-46 sights were to be made at the Opto Electrics Factory at Dehra Dun, the gun at the Ordnance Factory Board facility at Rishikesh and its 1,000-horsepower engine by Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. All the three projects stand deferred, official sources said.
> 
> The T-90s are also facing a host of other problems, including a nearly exhausted inventory of ammunition. The tank&#65533;s 125 mm smooth-bore gun is electronically configured to fire imported Russian AMK-338 and AMK-339 shells, the supply of which has run out after innumerable exercises.
> 
> Surprisingly, the T-90&#65533;s gun has not been configured to fire the Indian-made AMK-340 shells. These shells have turned out rather dubious in quality, with over 150,000 rounds having to be destroyed, leading to the loss of over Rs 700 crores. Some AMK-340 shells have even burst inside the tanks, killing crew members, in at least one instance at Babina. Armoured Corps officers said many tank crews, who feared the shells would explode inside the barrel, had refused to use the faulty ammunition, and when forced to do so went to elaborate lengths, enabling them to fire from outside the tank.
> 
> According to the Armoured Corps officers, the ordnance factory board had triple-packed the 125 mm AMK-340 shells with propellant, but without adequate packing in between the layers to prevent leakage at high temperatures in which they are stored, often under the open sun. This had led not only to a near-complete freeze on regular firings but also "severely dented" the confidence of tank crews, sources said.
> 
> The Secunderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), which was scheduled to start production of 9M119 Refleks missiles for the T-90 early this year, has also fallen badly behind schedule amid failed trials. BDL is believed to have sought technical assistance from the Russians in building the Refleks (Nato designation: AT-11 Sniper) missile.
> 
> It was the T-90&#65533;s missile-firing capability that had initially clinched the Army&#65533;s decision in its favour way back in 2001. But with BDL unable to supply the missiles and the endless problems with the fire control system, many officers are of the view that the tank appears little better than the already proven T-72, also currently in service with the Indian Army.
> 
> 
> Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army | India Defence



read the date of issue of report buddy before posting for the sake of posting ...... want me to issue the articles concerning failure of M1A1 tanks in the Pakistan field trials in front of President Zia? what a sheer waste of bandwidth


----------



## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> Can you prove this? The book I read said otherwise. Your source might change my view on this..



Here you go:

Perhaps the most curious feature is the estimate of only *200-300 T-72 tanks*, since the initial stock of about 1,000 was largely deployed by the* Republican Guard *units that *appear to have suffered the fewest losses during the ground campaign*.

Republican guard, and only republican Guard used the T-72, so all these stories about T-72's getting knocked out left and right is funny. Don't get me wrong many did get knocked out. However, when as many as 1388 tanks were destroyed by air, and between 1245-1708 were destroed *or abandoned*, and keep in mind most Iraqis surendered, then something isn't right. Moreover, Iraq had about 5,500 tanks, which mean many survived the war. I think it's clear where im going from here...





Iraqi Ground Forces Equipment

And just so you know, those "T-72's" were actually kit builts produced by Iraq, mostly made up of Polish parts, aswell as some Iraqi, and soviet parts. They were crap. Like i mentioned, they lacked basic capabilities that REAL T-72's had. Also *the Chinese Type 69 was called the T-55.*

It makes we wonder, did the US know the difference between T-72's (aka fake T-72) and T-55 (aka Chinese type 69)? I'm guessing they regarded everything as a T-72. 




lockh33d said:


> "During the ground war, only seven M1A1's were hit by rounds fired from the Iraqi's T-72 tanks, with none being seriously damaged. The Army reported that the Iraqi armed forces "destroyed no Abrams tanks during the Persian Gulf War."22 *Nine Abrams tanks were destroyed during the war: seven due to friendly fire and two were intentionally destroyed* to prevent capture after they became disabled.23 One incident in particular demonstrates the effectiveness of armor-piercing rounds and tank armor made of depleted uranium. As allied forces pushed into southern Iraq at the start of the ground war, an M1A1 tank became stuck in the mud."
> 
> Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU



That was writen by the same people that told you Iraq had WMD 

The bold part is bullcrap. Everyone knows atleast one Abrams was knocked out killing one crew-man.

Only 23 M1A1s were taken out of service in the Gulf[10] and *one of these losses resulted in crew deaths from Iraqi fire*. Some others took minor combat damage, with little effect on their operational readiness. Very few Abrams tanks were hit by enemy fire

M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





lockh33d said:


> Those are all from the second Iraqi invasion, most loses from the A1 variant after the Iraqi armed forces better equipped themselves the second time round.



Exactly my point, Those are M1A2's not M1A1's getting wasted, need i say more?





lockh33d said:


> Merkava is not an Abram is it? Any test to show that it's better? A direct comparison perhaps?



Firstly, you said the T-90 can't compete with *WESTERN* tanks, the Merkava is a wester tank isn't it? I have already proved Russian RPG's, of all things, can destroy your superior, magical, western tanks.

Now a sourse to your other question:

The latest Merkava Mk.4 is slightly larger than the Mk.3. *The new MBT is one of the most protected tanks in the world.*

Merkava Mk.4 Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com

Keep in mind that the Merkava is *65 ton tank*.




lockh33d said:


> If you understood the context of my view I was coming from, you would have understood that I was talking about Iraqi weapons. *The Maverick and Hellfire missiles can destroy any armor on this planet. As for Iraqi gear imported from Russia? Well that can't destroy M1's I'm sorry.*



 because you say so right  let me educate you.

Abrams estimated armour protection vs. 9m119 Svir:

Turret- 800-900 mm ........ 9M119 Svir 950 mm penatration =kill

Glacis- 560-590 mm......... 9M119 Svir 950 mm penatration =Kill

Lower fron haul- 580-650 mm........ 9M119 Svir 950 mm penatration =Kill

9M119 Svir penatrates over *37 inches*! Can't destroy Abrams my ***!
If the Abrams is on the recieving end, it's lights out. 

Main Battle Tank - M1, M1A1, and M1A2 Abrams



lockh33d said:


> Read above, Abrams are not Merkava's.



No. However, if RPG-29 with 750 mm penatration can cut through the *65 ton *Merkava like butter than a T-90 can take out the Abrams.






lockh33d said:


> Again, sources differ and vary. But congrats to your source for running along the same lines as what you want to believe.



Funny because several sources say the same. Let me find you another. PS all the sources i have found are American, and if you read them they portray the Abrams as a tank of the gods.

*1,848 *Abrams tanks then sent to Iraq.

Abrams heavy tank proves its mettle in Iraq campaign



lockh33d said:


> That really depends on what APS system you have installed on the T-90. For one, defense systems on the T-90 most likely incorporate IR/Radar decoys. *However, most AT weapons the US military has aren't IR or radar based. *E.g. TOW missiles are wire guided, whereas JDAM's have live feeds via satellite with an eye on the real target throughout the course of action.



Correct me if i'm wrong but the fire an control system on the Abrams utilizes a lazer that pinpoints the distance of the target, then that lazer gives an estimated distance, and lets the gunner adjust for elivation. The lazer also helps stabalize the turret on ruff terrain, buy causing the turret to act like a gyro, thus keeping the sight on target. The Shtora-1 jams lasers, so the Abrams is **** out of luck.

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## Hellfire

lockh33d said:


> "The unit (part of the 24th Infantry Division) had gone on, leaving this tank to wait for a recovery vehicle. Three T-72's appeared and attacked. The first fired from under 1,000 meters, scoring a hit with a shaped-charge (high explosive) round on the M1A1's frontal armor. The hit did no damage. The M1A1 fired a 120mm armor-piercing (DU) round that penetrated the T-72 turret, causing an explosion that blew the turret into the air. The second T-72 fired another shaped-charge round, hit the frontal armor, and did no damage. The T-72 turned to run, and took a 120mm round in the engine compartment (which) blew the engine into the air. The last T-72 fired a solid shot (sabot) round from 400 meters. This left a groove in the M1A1's frontal armor and bounced off. The T-72 then backed up behind a sand berm and was completely concealed from view. The M1A1 depressed its gun and put a (DU) sabot round through the berm, into the T-72, causing an explosion.24"
> 
> A nice combo of HEAT's and Ek rounds.
> 
> Source: Collateral Damage: How U.S. Troops Were Exposed to DU




You know you lost your credibility with quite a few posts inspite of my giving pointers on what you will trip over

1. I specifically stressed in my previous posts that T-72s (of 1970s era) were only held by Iraqi Republican Guards (and you can go through US army literature on that fact) ..... and they were not in their 1000s .... only a couple of hundred about 130-170 maybe 200 .... so have not understood how 1000s were shot (oh they can be if more than 1 tank was firing at one target and the same was fired upon by multiple US tanks). And you may kindly post me the instance where US army engaged Republican Guards directly, I have still not seen any such instance in all literature written on it since 1995. As far as I know, it was pounded by AF .... The only units engaged by US directly were the regular Army Armoured Corps and they had T-55s/T-69s/T-59s

2. I did point out that HEAT/HESH are not effective against M1A1 (its CHOBAM type armour) and it was further strengthened by emergency DU add on. Only M-60 being held by Marines were not as well protected. In addition, the only sabot Iraq had was steel core .... so dont even head into KE discussions .... you are way out of league here and you really need to do some reading on KE Penetrators as the LD ratio of the sabot held by Iraq was roughly equal to the best of HESH rounds and they could not even tickle CHOBAM type. And US used a APFSDS-DU everytime which would easily penetrate a T-59/T-69/T-55 Hull.

3. And you have posted yourself about HEAT/HESH which are the shaped charges ....

4. And lastly ... the article has only T-72 as tank in it ... strange that nowhere in any US literature I see T-59/T69 or T-55 .... can you really tell me the points of differentiation of above tanks with respect to T-72 on visual inspection in two circumstances:

a. Before the commencement of engagement on detection of threat.
b. After complete neutralisation of threat (read destruction fo threat)

I am keenly awaiting your response to the same
regards


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## Hellfire

lockh33d said:


> A good book I read at my local library a few years ago.



would be grateful if you could provide the name of the same .... am a keen student of this area

also would recommend you to read Guerilla Warfare a good book with Mao Tse Tung and Che Gueveras principles being elucidated and foreword by Capt Hart. Its in reference to your concepts of Guerilla/Terrorist warfare as applicable in Iraqi scenario


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## Hellfire

xuxu1457 said:


> From these injuries I mean :it's very hard to thorough destroy M1A1 by T-72 T-80 or general RPG



for majority - yes. But the biggest drawback is its thermal signature ... which is amazingly nice and big and can be spotted. Then with a good APFSDS-DU you can kill it .... with a tandem warhead ATGM you need about 1 to 2 hits to take it out completely

overall an excellent piece which is a mean machine with air support (helicopter gunships) in typical air-land battle doctrine for conventional war in open terrain

however it is same in susceptibility in built up area and CI grid engagements ,,,,,,


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## Gazzi

hellfire said:


> read the date of issue of report buddy before posting for the sake of posting ...... want me to issue the articles concerning failure of M1A1 tanks in the Pakistan field trials in front of President Zia? what a sheer waste of bandwidth



aaarrrr.....we seem to have hit a raw nerve there...........

i'm a little peeny weeny child and i'm going to tell my mummy about you and then tell everyone in school says hellfire.........

and by the way, if you want to get dirty in a healthy debate bringing leaders into it, then I will have no quarms in getting murky and dragging Mr Gandhi into the conversation. I have already had a thread deleted showing facts about this man so please don;t try and derail the thread as it is open to everyone and I have just posted an article from an Indian source with regards to the T-90 and thought it helpful to add and discuss. 

So please take your little childish rants elsewhere


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## Icarus

beckham said:


> *WRONG THREAD ! PLZ MOVE THIS POST TO :* Stupid and Funny from all over the world
> 
> 
> 
> Now thats what I call an expert analysis !



Typical "Deny all facts" reaction, references have been given, if you can, prove it wrong !!!!!!!!

Try these as well...................I have got loads more where those came from..........

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/72-8409.aspx

http://forum.********************/lofiversion/index.php/t80141.html


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Who on Earth are you? Last time I checked, you're just another Indian trolling around on these forums.
> 
> 
> 
> US does not share a healthy appetite with India overall. Down the road, I don't see there to be no possibility of the two becoming enemies or arch rivals at the least.
> 
> P.S. If you ever make up information to mislead again, I'll report you to a mod for invading my privacy.



Did you just deny knowing me just so you can continue to troll.

That is a new low for you, 

it not like you to lie so much.


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## Hellfire

Gazzi said:


> aaarrrr.....we seem to have hit a raw nerve there...........
> 
> i'm a little peeny weeny child and i'm going to tell my mummy about you and then tell everyone in school says hellfire.........



Be my guest, and have a candy too ... sure ..... no raw nerve ... just dont post something that is certainly outdated and not in the present times. If you cant add something to the recent issue, atleast dont regress ... am sure you shall be knowing more about Indian Army than I .......  am sure I shall learn a lot from you what I could not learn inside it .......



Gazzi said:


> and by the way, if you want to get dirty in a healthy debate bringing leaders into it, then I will have no quarms in getting murky and dragging Mr Gandhi into the conversation. I have already had a thread deleted showing facts about this man so please don;t try and derail the thread as it is open to everyone and I have just posted an article from an Indian source with regards to the T-90 and thought it helpful to add and discuss.
> 
> So please take your little childish rants elsewhere



you find getting your leadership in as getting dirty???? if you have a bit of difficulty in understanding what I meant I shall repeat again .... should I post some data proving M1A1 is a useless tank as proved on testing grounds in 1988 when Prez Zia had gone to witness the said test and it had failed miserably and as such that was the reason then that PA had not inducted the tank ...... so it may point that the M1A1 is useless??? Am sure if you had used a little percentage of your grey cells you would have got what was meant and what you perceived ......

but instead you chose it to type what you just did .... coming up with real fancy language to show intelligence ...... am impressed sure!

regards


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## Gazzi

hellfire said:


> Be my guest, and have a candy too ... sure ..... no raw nerve ... just dont post something that is certainly outdated and not in the present times. If you cant add something to the recent issue, atleast dont regress ... am sure you shall be knowing more about Indian Army than I .......  am sure I shall learn a lot from you what I could not learn inside it .......
> 
> 
> 
> you find getting your leadership in as getting dirty???? if you have a bit of difficulty in understanding what I meant I shall repeat again .... should I post some data proving M1A1 is a useless tank as proved on testing grounds in 1988 when Prez Zia had gone to witness the said test and it had failed miserably and as such that was the reason then that PA had not inducted the tank ...... so it may point that the M1A1 is useless??? Am sure if you had used a little percentage of your grey cells you would have got what was meant and what you perceived ......
> 
> but instead you chose it to type what you just did .... coming up with real fancy language to show intelligence ...... am impressed sure!
> 
> regards



The first part of your post....please go back to school and learn the English language again which actually is English and not part Hindi.

The second part.....why the M1A1, why not Challenger 2 tank as you have clearly just saw a Pakistan Flag i my profile and decide to become a child and talk about Pakistan as I have dared say something about India. Why not go for the resident flag, the union jack and start there also.


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## beckham

Kakgeta said:


> Typical "Deny all facts" reaction, references have been given, if you can, prove it wrong !!!!!!!!
> 
> Try these as well...................I have got loads more where those came from..........
> 
> India's Arjun Tank Disaster
> 
> Pakistani Defence Forum > Arjun Tank Disaster Part I: History









The first link you provided was from a blog.

second one is a a post by some1 on strategypage.

Third one is also a post on some forum with source from blog.

Have you got any credible, neutral source ??

If not then please refrain from posting... 

Thanks


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## Kinshuk

Gazzi said:


> The first part of your post...*.please go back to school and learn the English language again which actually is English and not part Hindi.*
> 
> The second part.....why the M1A1,* why not Challenger 2 tank as you have clearly just saw a Pakistan Flag i my profile and decide to become a child *a*nd talk about Pakistan as I have dared say something about India. Why not go for the resident flag, the union jack and start there also*.



Sir,

You should accompany him as I am sure you know nothing regarding sentence formation, semantics, parenthesis etc etc in English language.

Well I just wanted to enlighten you a little, the fallacy you carry regarding your own English. You haven't used a single article properly, at its right place.

I hope you understand and take my words positively. I didn't mean to be odious but please refrain yourself from making vociferous comments before knowing your own standards. 

This goes to Indian folks as well. 

Thanks and Regards,
KS

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## shchinese

you guys can test arjun as much as you like - even when it is already the world's most tested tank! please just do it. 

at the end of the day, even if you can make things all corrected and make this junk combat ready, please don't forget the fact that half of its components need to be sourced from foreign vendors. 

when we go to war again in the predictable future, our factories can produce Type-99 over night, but your army chief will have to worry "how many components we can import from russia this time?"

 one day loser, always loser.

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## Iggy

shchinese said:


> you guys can test arjun as much as you like - even when it is already the world's most tested tank! please just do it.
> 
> at the end of the day, even if you can make things all corrected and make this junk combat ready, please don't forget the fact that half of its components need to be sourced from foreign vendors.
> 
> when we go to war again in the predictable future, our factories can produce Type-99 over night, but your army chief will have to worry "how many components we can import from russia this time?"
> 
> one day loser, always loser.




Some support you got from the mods here mate ..had to give it to you..seems like you are the fav pet of the mods here

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## deckingraj

seiko said:


> Some support you got from the mods here mate ..had to give it to you.


.

Seiko bro...being a senior member and have seen enough of this guy i would suggest you to inform new members(especially Indians) about how threads will get converted to flames if they choose to reply to any nonsensical posts of this guy.... This particular post is somewhat OK but typically he flames....So please help before all indian related threads go for a toss...



> seems like you are the fav pet of the mods here



Something i fail to understand but may be the policy is stopping them from banning this guy for good or may be something else....Oine thing for sure they will be busy cleaning all indian related threads

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## Chanakyaa

Dear shchinese,

the indegisation of arjun for most parts is already underway and a joint tank production with russia is under way.

india has far far greater no. Of tanks so loosing them is not am issue, t90 is already produced locally.

regarding ur hate for imports, would u maintain the same hate n say and agree that in war pakistan will be looking to get engines frm russia, avionics from west and spares from china while india can make a 100% indian MKI?

every one is importing mate. All ur fighters have russian engine, 
russian or chinese jf17 is dangerous for india, keep them at check that is more important.

we are all sailing in the same boat mate.


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## DeathGod

shchinese said:


> 1.one day loser, always loser.
> 2. one day liar, always a liar ( from your other post)



Sorry for being direct but is that your philosophy of life? If so is the case then going by the semantics:

One day troll , always a troll
One day banned , always banned.

Do you beleive in it?

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## Kinshuk

shchinese said:


> you guys can test arjun as much as you like - even when it is already the world's most tested tank! please just do it.
> 
> at the end of the day, even if you can make things all corrected and make this junk combat ready, please don't forget the fact that half of its components need to be sourced from foreign vendors.
> 
> when we go to war again in the predictable future, our factories can *produce Type-99 over nigh*t, but your army chief will have to worry "how many components we can import from russia this time?"
> 
> one day loser, always loser.



Prove the italicized part. 

*Just completing 1000 posts doesn't make you learn anything for sure*. You have no idea about what you are talking. *You will produce a talk over night and send it for battle.* Lol! Mostly I mention "Sir" before replying to any of the posts but you have no respect for other and the same you deserve. Hell with your being senior. 

If we are importing from different countries that improves our relationship globally and now even with USA. Our economy is just after you considering pace. *USA has its own long term interest in India* , _*I won't say they have some unconditional love for India but they can't afford India to loose against China as India is their only option to counter China.*_ You are assuming like a 10 year old kid and nationalism is clearly shown in all your posts. 

Lol I can only laugh at you being senior, sorry but the respect you give, respect you get. 


Once a looser, always play safe.

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## Communist

seiko said:


> Some support you got from the mods here mate ..had to give it to you..seems like you are the fav pet of the mods here



Why is this personal attack? What wrong has he said?


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## Iggy

Communist said:


> Why is this personal attack? What wrong has he said?



i was complimenting him.. see any Indians coming back like this here after so much bans?its a honor to him to be back after every month

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## Communist

deckingraj said:


> .
> 
> Seiko bro...being a senior member and have seen enough of this guy i would suggest you to inform new members(especially Indians) about how threads will get converted to flames if they choose to reply to any nonsensical posts of this guy.... This particular post is somewhat OK but typically he flames....So please help before all indian related threads go for a toss...
> 
> 
> 
> Something i fail to understand but may be the policy is stopping them from banning this guy for good or may be something else....Oine thing for sure they will be busy cleaning all indian related threads



If you want to have any personal conversation with any member, you post your comments on that member's profile, do not insult other members by criticize the nature of their posts. 

I am very politely asking you not to make personal attacks. Attack the post, not the poster.

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## Communist

seiko said:


> i was complimenting him.. see any Indians coming back like this here after so much bans?its a honor to him to be back after every month



From angle your post is related to the topic? 

What is this?


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## Iggy

Communist said:


> From angle your post is related to the topic?
> 
> What is this?



i appologise for the offtopics ..now can we go back to the topic??


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## Kinshuk

Communist said:


> If you want to have any personal conversation with any member, you post your comments on that member's profile, do not insult other members by criticize the nature of their posts.
> 
> I am very politely asking you not to make personal attacks. Attack the post, not the poster.



Should I quote the no of times attacks came from the other side? And how many times did you remind your members there for not personally attacking us?


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## Iggy

Kinshuk said:


> Should I quote the no of times attacks came from the other side? And how many times did you remind your members there for not personally attacking us?



Leave it.. stick to the topic..lets see how much time they can do it??

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## Communist

Kinshuk said:


> Should I quote the no of times attacks came from the other side? And how many times did you remind your members there for not personally attacking us?



So many times, mods perhaps know that. Because in many cases I sent private messages and asked them to edit their posts. Many times I directly asked them by posting on the threads.

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## Kinshuk

Back to the topic. 

I think it is good if Arjun MBT is having bad image internationally. It will maintain its low profile. Even they are right, it must prove in the real battle situation so no point trying to prove if it's better or not right not to the forum, yes for India it is a concern.

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## lockh33d

I would love to read those posts people have made attacking me, if I could. But 3/4 of those inconcise crap are not worth my time, so it'd be greatly appreciated if you people+Mr. MotherRussia list out in points what you all want to say.

Thanks 

P.S. If so many people here think it's unfair that some people get banned and not others, perhaps those people who think it's unfair should leave. This website is the property of the people of Pakistan so it is their voice that count, not Indians, not Chinese, not whoever that isn't Pak.

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## lockh33d

Dear Gogbot, AKA Mohan Krishna Gogoneni(18) who lives so far down south, in Mel, Aussie:

Please do not make personal attacks on a anonymous website
as stated per the rules, or I shall, in the future report you to a mod thereby terminating your account and your usage of this web.


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## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> I would love to read those posts people have made attacking me, if I could. But 3/4 of those inconcise crap are not worth my time, so it'd be greatly appreciated if you people+Mr. MotherRussia list out in points what you all want to say.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> P.S. If so many people here think it's unfair that some people get banned and not others, perhaps those people who think it's unfair should leave. *This website is the property of the people of Pakistan so it is their voice that count, not Indians, not Chinese, not whoever that isn't Pak*.



This website is property of whom ever owns it. Moreover, it's a public forum open to everyone. PS this is an Indian sub-forum. You see if things worked the way you think they should then Google, for example, would only be available to Americans and Russians because the owners are....you guessed it, an American and a Russian 

Anyways, the topic is about T-90 and Arjun, lets keep it that way. I'm guilt as everyone else for going off course. however, lets move on. Both the T-90 and the Abrams are good tanks, lets leave it at that.


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## shchinese

Kinshuk said:


> Back to the topic.
> 
> I think it is good if Arjun MBT is having bad image internationally. It will maintain its low profile. Even they are right, it must prove in the real battle situation so no point trying to prove if it's better or not right not to the forum, yes for India it is a concern.



dude, trust me one thing, after 3 years reading different craps posted by indian on many different forums/blogs, I have the feeling that indians just believe everything in indian is *good*.

when LCA is being delayed again and again, indians say it is good because india now has the world's most tested fighter. 

when Arjun is being delayed again and again, indians say it is good as it gives you guys chance to have a solid foundation. 



can I just ask: what in india is not actually good?

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## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> This website is property of whom ever owns it. Moreover, it's a public forum open to everyone. PS this is an Indian sub-forum. You see if things worked the way you think they should then Google, for example, would only be available to Americans and Russians because the owners are....you guessed it, an American and a Russian
> 
> Anyways, the topic is about T-90 and Arjun, lets keep it that way. I'm guilt as everyone else for going off course. however, lets move on. Both the T-90 and the Abrams are good tanks, lets leave it at that.



Who's admining the forums?
Who's running the show here?
Who's paying for the forums?

Bust most importantly,

Who has got the power, on these forums?

Solution: Pakistanis.

End. Don't reply to this, keep things the way it is.


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## ptldM3

lockh33d said:


> Who's admining the forums?
> Who's running the show here?
> Who's paying for the forums?
> 
> Bust most importantly,
> 
> Who has got the power, on these forums?
> 
> Solution: Pakistanis.
> 
> End. Don't reply to this, keep things the way it is.



That's not relevant, it's still a public forum. Germans and Japanese run Honda and BMW, but does that mean you shouldn't be aloud to perchase either of them?


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## lockh33d

ptldM3 said:


> That's not relevant, it's still a public forum. Germans and Japanese run Honda, and BMW does that mean you shouldn't be aloud to perchase either of them?



XD. Saddam Hussein was running Iraq because he had the power. Unless you're saying the Russians were running "his" country at the time?

All those car manufacturers are "offering" their cars to 3rd parties. Are Pakistanis offering this website for you to own?

P.S. You're right for once, this is about the Arjun, we deviated off course for 10 pages. Let's end it here.


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## gogbot

lockh33d said:


> Dear Gogbot, AKA Mohan Krishna Gogoneni(18) who lives so far down south, in Mel, Aussie:
> 
> Please do not make personal attacks on a anonymous website
> as stated per the rules, or I shall, in the future report you to a mod thereby terminating your account and your usage of this web.



Dear Lokh33d, AKA Daniel Zhou(18) who lives so far down south, in Auk, New Zealand and is of Chinese origin.

Please do not make personal attacks on a anonymous website
as stated per the rules, or I shall, in the future report you to a mod thereby terminating your account and your usage of this web.


----------



## lockh33d

gogbot said:


> Dear Lokh33d, AKA Daniel Zhou(18) who lives so far down south, in Auk, New Zealand and is of Chinese origin.
> 
> Please do not make personal attacks on a anonymous website
> as stated per the rules, or I shall, in the future report you to a mod thereby terminating your account and your usage of this web.



Uh-huh, I was born in China, raised in Auckland, New Zealand, which I publicly announced for months. What's wrong? What's wrong with moving to another nation for college?


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## faithfulguy

Kinshuk said:


> Prove the italicized part.
> 
> *Just completing 1000 posts doesn't make you learn anything for sure*. You have no idea about what you are talking. *You will produce a talk over night and send it for battle.* Lol! Mostly I mention "Sir" before replying to any of the posts but you have no respect for other and the same you deserve. Hell with your being senior.
> 
> If we are importing from different countries that improves our relationship globally and now even with USA. Our economy is just after you considering pace. *USA has its own long term interest in India* , _*I won't say they have some unconditional love for India but they can't afford India to loose against China as India is their only option to counter China.*_ You are assuming like a 10 year old kid and nationalism is clearly shown in all your posts.
> 
> Lol I can only laugh at you being senior, sorry but the respect you give, respect you get.
> 
> 
> Once a looser, always play safe.



You must be a joker. Why do you think US need India to counter China. US can counter China by itself with bases all over Asia. Does India plan to offer air bases to the US or submarine bases for US subs. If not, then shut the blow holeup.

The only thing US use need from India is to do low quality tech support. And also open up good Indian restaurant. Otherwise, I do not see how India could be of any use to the US.

India, on the other hand, would need US to supply it weapons to counter China. And only US weapons will do in the future as China is developing fast and will soon surpass Russia and Europe in technology. In the future, I can imaging Indian PM volunteer coming to a white house state dinner to be a waiter so the US would sell you guys some crap to prevent you from getting run over by the Chicoms.


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## faithfulguy

lockh33d said:


> Uh-huh, I was born in China, raised in Auckland, New Zealand, which I publicly announced for months. What's wrong? What's wrong with moving to another nation for college?



Why are we talking about country of origin instead of the topic?


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## Kinshuk

faithfulguy said:


> *You must be a joker*. Why do you think US need India to counter China. US can counter China by itself with bases all over Asia. Does India plan to offer air bases to the US or submarine bases for US subs. If not, then shut the blow holeup.
> 
> The only thing US use need from India is to do low quality tech support. And also open up good Indian restaurant. Otherwise, *I do not see how India could be of any use to the US.*
> 
> India, on the other hand, would need US to supply it weapons to counter China. And only US weapons will do in the future as China is developing fast and will soon surpass Russia and Europe in technology. In the future, I can imaging Indian PM volunteer coming to a white house state dinner to be a waiter so the US would sell you guys some crap to prevent you from getting run over by the Chicoms.



Bold Part = Personal attack.

Italicized part- Its not my problem if you do not see anything, and stop singing the song of Chinese technology. World knows how fantastic they are. 

I feel proud to be in a democratic country*. If any failure you know about LCA or Arjun MBT is because Indian Media informed the world.* It is a good thing but you will never realize, how will you there are no such rights given in China. 

I had mentioned in my post that US doesn't have any unconditional love to India, its there own interest. It is very evident but if you want to keep your eyes closed then I don't mind. Nuclear deal, desperation towards MMRCA, whatever the reason, they need India and other countries as well to keep their companies alive. *FYI... before you called me joker, I work for* *LOCKHEED MARTINS*, my emp ID is 75222. I am not boasting or feeling proud of US India relation, infact I want India to produce stuffs indigenously but you just took me all wrong. 

Be Happy India has no advantage. It will even loose against Nepal, Bangladesh. I don't mind. 

Poor Quality? 
Indian industries promise for more than 98.5&#37; accuracy in the services it provides to its Client all over the world. And whatever happens in India is shown to the world, we don't sing a song Ours is better and even if we do, Media has all the rights to inform us on the real issue unlike China. *I would not attack your country on any grounds as I personally appreciate its performance* but don't carry a misconception that China has nothing to be criticized about. 


*Mr. Communist, 

I didn't see you interruption this time. Personal attacks you were talking about right?*

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## deesu

faithfulguy said:


> You must be a joker. Why do you think US need India to counter China. US can counter China by itself with bases all over Asia. Does India plan to offer air bases to the US or submarine bases for US subs. If not, then shut the blow holeup.
> 
> The only thing US use need from India is to do low quality tech support. And also open up good Indian restaurant. Otherwise, I do not see how India could be of any use to the US.
> 
> India, on the other hand, would need US to supply it weapons to counter China. And only US weapons will do in the future as China is developing fast and will soon surpass Russia and Europe in technology. In the future, I can imaging Indian PM volunteer coming to a white house state dinner to be a waiter so the US would sell you guys some crap to prevent you from getting run over by the Chicoms.



just wait for few more years...... Indians are waking up .. I should say


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## Honor

deesu said:


> just wait for few more years...... Indians are waking up .. I should say



Will India takes another 50years to wake up?


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## xuxu1457

Kinshuk said:


> Bold Part = Personal attack.
> 
> Italicized part- Its not my problem if you do not see anything, and stop singing the song of Chinese technology. World knows how fantastic they are.
> 
> I feel proud to be in a democratic country*. If any failure you know about LCA or Arjun MBT is because Indian Media informed the world.* It is a good thing but you will never realize, how will you there are no such rights given in China.
> 
> I had mentioned in my post that US doesn't have any unconditional love to India, its there own interest. It is very evident but if you want to keep your eyes closed then I don't mind. Nuclear deal, desperation towards MMRCA, whatever the reason, they need India and other countries as well to keep their companies alive. *FYI... before you called me joker, I work for* *LOCKHEED MARTINS*, my emp ID is 75222. I am not boasting or feeling proud of US India relation, infact I want India to produce stuffs indigenously but you just took me all wrong.
> 
> Be Happy India has no advantage. It will even loose against Nepal, Bangladesh. I don't mind.
> 
> Poor Quality?
> Indian industries promise for more than 98.5% accuracy in the services it provides to its Client all over the world. And whatever happens in India is shown to the world, we don't sing a song Ours is better and even if we do, Media has all the rights to inform us on the real issue unlike China. *I would not attack your country on any grounds as I personally appreciate its performance* but don't carry a misconception that China has nothing to be criticized about.
> 
> 
> *Mr. Communist,
> 
> I didn't see you interruption this time. Personal attacks you were talking about right?*



"I feel proud to be in a democratic country. *If any failure you know about LCA or Arjun MBT is because Indian Media informed the world.* It is a good thing but you will never realize, how will you there are no such rights given in China. "
You can get proud from anything,Indian soldiers escaped from the battlefield, Indian newspapers reported that:
Escape speed of our troops is the first of the world, the enemy was too late to catch up with


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## amarnath

xuxu1457 said:


> "I feel proud to be in a democratic country. *If any failure you know about LCA or Arjun MBT is because Indian Media informed the world.* It is a good thing but you will never realize, how will you there are no such rights given in China. "
> You can get proud from anything,Indian soldiers escaped from the battlefield, Indian newspapers reported that:
> *Escape speed of our troops is the first of the world, the enemy was too late to catch up with*


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## Novice09

Honor said:


> Will India takes another 50years to wake up?



Do you have any problem  its better for China that India is sleeping. It will help China because there won't be another superpower in their neighborhood, don't you think so.

Chinese government feels that current India (in sleeping state)  is dangerous. That is why they are talking about breaking India into small pieces. That is why they want us to recall 1962. 

Just Imagine what could happen if you face awaken India

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## Gazzi

Kinshuk said:


> Sir,
> 
> You should accompany him as I am sure you know nothing regarding sentence formation, semantics, parenthesis etc etc in English language.
> 
> Well I just wanted to enlighten you a little, the fallacy you carry regarding your own English. You haven't used a single article properly, at its right place.
> 
> I hope you understand and take my words positively. I didn't mean to be odious but please refrain yourself from making vociferous comments before knowing your own standards.
> 
> This goes to Indian folks as well.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> KS



Kindly explain Sir, how not using a single article properly in its right place, can have any description of my English. 

another one for the classroom then........


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## Gazzi

This article is from Feb 2009 , can anyone please calrify if the Arjun is being scrapped from further research and production. I actually though South Asia may be the new defence equipment manufacturer, regardless of whether Indian, Pakistani and I suppose China will fall into the Asia part.


----------



## Novice09

> Originally Posted by Kinshuk
> Sir,
> 
> You should accompany him as I am sure you know nothing regarding sentence formation, semantics, parenthesis etc etc in English language.
> 
> Well I just wanted to enlighten you a little, the fallacy you carry regarding your own English. You haven't used a single article properly, at its right place.
> 
> I hope you understand and take my words positively. I didn't mean to be odious but please refrain yourself from making vociferous comments before knowing your own standards.
> 
> This goes to Indian folks as well.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,



@Kinshuk

You can teach some grammar to interested PDF members by opening a new thread instead of criticizing


----------



## amarnath

Gazzi said:


> This article is from Feb 2009 , can anyone please calrify if the Arjun is being scrapped from further research and production. I actually though South Asia may be the new defence equipment manufacturer, regardless of whether Indian, Pakistani and I suppose China will fall into the Asia part.



Arjun has already been inducted into the army under 43rd Armoured Regiment, a total of 45 Arjuns Inducted, and the rest after the trials with the T-90


----------



## Icarus

beckham said:


> The first link you provided was from a blog.
> 
> second one is a a post by some1 on strategypage.
> 
> Third one is also a post on some forum with source from blog.
> 
> Have you got any credible, neutral source ??
> 
> If not then please refrain from posting...
> 
> Thanks



Where else do you want me to get a source from ? just mention and i will get it, obviously DRDO won't write on their website that they made a piece of junk !!!!!!


----------



## Kinshuk

Novice09 said:


> @Kinshuk
> 
> You can teach some grammar to interested PDF members by opening a new thread instead of criticizing



Sir, I didn't criticize him. Please read his post where he had done the same thing. I was just informing that before commenting on someone elses english, one should improve his own. Thanks.,. Still no hard feelings. Had it been any Indian, I would have said the same.


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## Kinshuk

Gazzi said:


> Kindly explain Sir, *how not using a single article properly in its right place*, can have any description of my English.
> 
> another one for the classroom then........



Again the bold part is incorrect, though forget it mate and forgive me if you didn't like my comment. I am sorry.


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## amarnath

Kakgeta said:


> Where else do you want me to get a source from ? just mention and i will get it, obviously DRDO won't write on their website that they made a piece of junk !!!!!!



Junk? If u call it a junk it is a junk.... Man comeon, you are viewing it with your anti-India sentiments, so everything u look is a junk, agreed that Arjun had failures, DRDO has rectified it and has also been handed over to the army...... How would u feel if some one says your Al-khalid is nothing but a piece of junk?

An Pakistan has no license to say, it has not created a single tank by its own effort, untill then u cannot disgrace others creation...


----------



## Icarus

amarnath said:


> Junk? If u call it a junk it is a junk.... Man comeon, you are viewing it with your anti-India sentiments, so everything u look is a junk, agreed that Arjun had failures, DRDO has rectified it and has also been handed over to the army...... How would u feel if some one says your Al-khalid is nothing but a piece of junk?
> 
> An Pakistan has no license to say, it has not created a single tank by its own effort, untill then u cannot disgrace others creation...



Ok, maybe i got a little carried away...........it does have a pretty good hit rate at long distances............so i retract my junk statement, didn't mean to hurt your sentiments................

BTW, arjun is about as indigenous as Al-Khalid, since Arjun was designed by Krauss Maffei.


----------



## amarnath

Kakgeta said:


> Ok, maybe i got a little carried away...........it does have a pretty good hit rate at long distances............so i retract my junk statement, didn't mean to hurt your sentiments................
> 
> BTW, arjun is about as indigenous as Al-Khalid, since Arjun was designed by Krauss Maffei.



thanks


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## beckham

Kakgeta said:


> Where else do you want me to get a source from ? just mention and i will get it, obviously DRDO won't write on their website that they made a piece of junk !!!!!!



Any credible + neutral source will do.

It would be more appreciated If you post something constructive of your own and back it with sufficient sources.


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## Icarus

beckham said:


> Any credible + neutral source will do.
> 
> It would be more appreciated If you post something constructive of your own and back it with sufficient sources.



Well, this is about as credible and as neutral as it gets on the world wide web.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the sabotage point you criticised: 

September 2007 winter trials:
Starting with the September 2007 winter trials, the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.
*DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.*

Off Topic: You are from Kerala ? How is it like there ? I had to do a project on Indian geography and collected pictures of Kerala for the assignment, looked like a really nice place.


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## beckham

Kakgeta said:


> Well, this is about as credible and as neutral as it gets on the world wide web.
> 
> Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This is the sabotage point you criticised:
> 
> September 2007 winter trials:
> Starting with the September 2007 winter trials, the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.
> *DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.*



Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks by some internal elements for selecting T-90's over it.Not by any Pakistani spies.

Btw, All the problems related to Engine,FCS etc have been rectified.

*http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/44475-arjun-mbt-take-t-90-a-3.html#post627509*



> Off Topic: You are from Kerala ? How is it like there ? I had to do a project on Indian geography and collected pictures of Kerala for the assignment, looked like a really nice place.



Yupe,  


*"Gods own country " *


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## Icarus

beckham said:


> Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks by some internal elements for selecting T-90's over it.Not by any Pakistani spies.
> 
> Btw, All the problems related to Engine,FCS etc have been rectified.
> 
> *http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/44475-arjun-mbt-take-t-90-a-3.html#post627509*
> 
> 
> 
> Yupe,
> 
> 
> *"Gods own country " *



That statement I believe will undergo it's baptism through fire during this comparison with the T-90.
Either way though, it's India's win because both tanks are theirs !!!!

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## Hellfire

Gazzi said:


> This article is from Feb 2009 , can anyone please calrify if the Arjun is being scrapped from further research and production. I actually though South Asia may be the new defence equipment manufacturer, regardless of whether Indian, Pakistani and I suppose China will fall into the Asia part.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Indian Army looses battle against Arjun Tank, but, will there be Arjun Mark-2? | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion
> 
> ndian Army lost its battle and Arjun Tank will ride into the Indian Army regiments defeating its most hostile evaluators. This is a strange case in which Indian Army the creator of Arjun Tank turned into Frankenstein. Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley take note.
> 
> Indian Army developed cold feet (again) on the T-90 versus Arjun Tank comparative trials after witnessing the accelerated usage cum reliability trial (AUCRT) of Main Battle Tank Arjun that began in December 2007. Then we saw parliamentary reports by Indian Army on the failure of Arjun Tanks in AUCRT, that was thrashed in media as well as in parliament. To run salt of Indian army ego, DRDO will hand it over in a formal function we may witness in february end or march, when 17  18 tanks will be handed over to Indian Army. Atleast 50 Arjun Tanks is expected to be inducted this year.
> 
> There might not be Arjun Tank mark  2 tanks rolling and production may cease after the current order unless there is a miracle. Indian Army had given some observations to DRDO after the AUCRT. Some points were valid on the metallurgy and life of certain parts (it was prepared by the actual evaluators unlike the parliamentary report). DRDO addressed it.
> 
> The future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) GSQR and research is shaping up. The new policy of user (Indian Army in this case) has to put its own money in the project, will put some responsibility on the user. In addition we will witness user and the research agency sharing responsibility. There will be involvement of private sector. The question is how many private sector companies will want to work with Indian Army on its projects. Some companies like MRF had lost money on the Arjun Tank Project due to Indian Army attitude. The Pinaka project may be an indicator if Indian Army is worth being associated with.



Well in all honesty, the forum has become a battleground for personalised insults and unnecessary slander so your post was a refresher 

the issue is that Arjun Mk. I is dead for all purposes, irrespective of all trials they may have subsequently. The trials are being done purely under political pressure.

But yes Arjun Project as a whole can not and will not be scrapped ... Mk II will be in offing as India plans to induct next generation of tank (T-95 is another consideration as is rumor of M1A3) so if DRDO can pull up and improve its work, the same may still be inducted 

But we have to keep in mind that even if this was to happen, an ICV for the same in mech/armoured forces usage has to be made .... still some way off

In addition lets not forget the Indian political scenario where only thing needed to stop a weapon platform from being inducted is to scream scam/kickback/bribe and the whole thing is scrapped forever and delays set in for 4-5 years by which time the tech is obsolete ...

So am unsure where India is headed as of yet ......

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## Hellfire

Kakgeta said:


> Well, this is about as credible and as neutral as it gets on the world wide web.
> 
> Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This is the sabotage point you criticised:
> 
> September 2007 winter trials:
> Starting with the September 2007 winter trials, the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.
> *DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.*
> 
> Off Topic: You are from Kerala ? How is it like there ? I had to do a project on Indian geography and collected pictures of Kerala for the assignment, looked like a really nice place.



well sabotage is just public mud slingging the same could not be proved ...... its like Indian politicians blaming things right and left ......


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## RPK

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/russia&#37;5Cs-t-90-vs-india\s-arjun/384353/


*Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun*


Next month, India&#8217;s homegrown Arjun tank will take on the new Russian T-90 in a long-awaited comparative trial.


The outcome could decide whether the Indian Army will ride Indian tanks into future battles or continue its reliance upon a heavily criticised fleet of Russian T-72 tanks, which even the army chief admits is 80 per cent blind at night, when most tank battles occur.

The army&#8217;s Bikaner-headquartered 24 Infantry Division will conduct the month-long trials in the desert expanses around Bikaner, Suratgarh and Pokhran. A squadron (14 tanks) of the Arjun will be pitted against a T-90 squadron. Both will be evaluated by day and by night, comparing their abilities to speed through rugged, sand-dune-infested terrain; to fire accurately even while moving; their abilities to operate for long periods over long distances; and the fatigue they impose on their crews.

The declared aim of the comparative trial, surprisingly, is not to identify the better tank. The army claims the T-90 is not on trial; instead, the strengths and weaknesses of the Arjun are being evaluated, to help the army decide what operational role the Arjun could play, and which sector of the border it could effectively operate in.

But the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) &#8212; which has developed the Arjun tank at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) at Chennai &#8212; insists that if the Arjun performs well against the vaunted T-90, the army will be forced to order the Indian tank in larger numbers. Arjuns could start replacing the T-72, while the T-90 remains in service for another three decades.

So far, the army has only ordered 124 Arjuns for its 4,000-tank fleet. An incensed DRDO has long demanded comparative trials against the T-72, and the newer T-90, to prove the Arjun&#8217;s quality. Trials were scheduled, and then postponed, because of a shortage of Arjun ammunition. With the ammunition now available the army, significantly, has withdrawn the T-72 from the trials. 

&#8220;The army knows that the T-72 would have performed very poorly in trials against the Arjun&#8221;, complains a senior DRDO officer. &#8220;Despite that, the army continues to sink money into its 2400 outdated T-72s. Any comparative trial with the T-72 would make it clear that the Arjun should replace the T-72.&#8221;

But there is also concern about the subjectivity of trials involving an entire squadron in tactical manoeuvres. Major General HM Singh (retired), the father of the Arjun, says, &#8220;It is impossible to measure the tactical performance of 14 tanks. There are too many variables, including the skill of the tank crews and coloured perceptions of the judges. A comparative trial should be a scientific comparison of each tanks&#8217; physical performance in identical situations.&#8221;

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has not responded to an emailed questionnaire from Business Standard on the comparative trials and the condition of the T-72 tank fleet.

Meanwhile, the Arjun is ready for production in larger numbers, with a production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai established at a cost of Rs 50 crores. Capable of producing 20 Arjuns annually, it has already equipped India&#8217;s first Arjun unit, 43 Armoured Regiment. Now, a second unit, 75 Armoured Regiment, is being converted to the Arjun.

But that is as far as the army is prepared to accept the Arjun. According to the army&#8217;s long-term plan, which Business Standard has accessed, no more Arjuns are planned. Instead, the army will field equal numbers of T-90s and T-72s for the next 15 years, spending thousands of crores on extending the life of the T-72.

But these trials, despite the reservations about their relevance, are the moment of truth for the Indian tank. A strong performance by the Arjun will force the army to redo its maths. Conspicuous failure, on the other hand, could cap the programme at just 124 tanks


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## conworldus

How exactly do you conduct this trial anyway? Pitting them against each other in a death match?


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## mrwarrior006

^^^^its alll simulation

objectives,conditions and scenario are given to both and then their performance are judjed by their responses


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## RPK

Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks

*Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks* 

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 3, 2010, 2:48 IST 



Foreign upgrade for T-72 chosen over indigenous Arjun tank



The Indian Army chief&#8217;s concern that India&#8217;s tank fleet was largely incapable of fighting at night highlighted only a part of the problem with the Russian T-72, the army&#8217;s main tank. In fact, the T-72 is in far worse shape than General Deepak Kapoor let on last month. 

Another signal of the T-72&#8217;s obsolescence was its recent withdrawal, by the army&#8217;s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), from next month&#8217;s comparative trials with the indigenous Arjun tank. An embarrassed DGMF has realised that, without major refurbishing, the T-72 was not in the Arjun&#8217;s class. 

But in the army&#8217;s long-term planning, the T-72 &#8212; which the more advanced T-90 will replace only gradually &#8212; will continue to equip almost half of the army&#8217;s 59 tank regiments as far in the future as 2022. 

Business Standard has accessed a sheaf of technical reports and funding requests that actually quantify the state of the T-72. Exactly 32 years have passed since the first T-72s arrived in India; army guidelines stipulate 32 years as the service life of a tank. The earliest tanks from the army&#8217;s 2,418-strong T-72 inventory should have already been retired, making way for a more modern tank, such as the T-90 or the Arjun. 

Instead, the DGMF &#8212; longstanding advocates of Russian equipment &#8212; plans to spend Rs 5 crore per T-72, hoping to add another 15-20 years to that tank&#8217;s service life by replacing crucial systems, such as its fire control system, main engine and night vision devices. 

The military&#8217;s Annual Acquisition Plan for 2008-2010 (AAP 2008-10) lists out the cost of modernising the T-72 fleet as follows: 




&#8226;New 1000-horsepower engines (identical to the T-90 tank) to replace the T-72&#8217;s old 780-horsepower engines. The cost of each engine: Rs 3 crore. 

&#8226;Thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems (TIFCS) that will allow the T-72 gunners to observe and fight at night. Each TIFCS will cost Rs 1.4 crore. 

&#8226;Thermal Imaging (TI) sights to provide T-72 tank commanders with night vision. Each TI sight costs Rs 0.4 crore. 

&#8226;An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank&#8217;s electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crore. 
The Rs 5-crore cost of upgrading each T-72 knocks out the argument that the T-72 &#8212; at Rs 9 crore apiece &#8212; is value-for-money. Retrofitting upgraded systems will escalate the cost of the T-72 to Rs 14 crore. In contrast, a new Arjun, with a 1,500 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, can be had for a marginally more expensive Rs 16.8 crore. 

&#8220;It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?&#8221; says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army&#8217;s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. &#8220;India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.&#8221; 

The T-72&#8217;s galloping obsolescence is magnified by the MoD&#8217;s failure to overhaul tanks on schedule: Some 800 T-72s are years overdue for overhaul. Originally, each T-72 was to be overhauled twice during its service life of 32 years. But as the overhaul agencies &#8212; the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi; and 505 Army Base Workshop, Delhi &#8212; failed to meet their overhaul targets of 70 and 50 tanks, respectively, the army decided that one overhaul was good enough. And, with even that schedule not implemented, a desperate MoD has approached Indian industry to play a role in overhauling the T-72 fleet. 

The total expenditure on the T-72 tank, budgeted for AAP 2008-10, is over Rs 5000 crore. The cost of overhaul has not been accurately determined

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## Insane

Among India's Armed forces the ARMY is in the worst shape and the modernization is really slow. Wot worries me the most is they are also the most conservative when it comes to supporting domestic industry. I mean, not that you have the best tanks in the world so you are not giving ARJUN it's share. I think the ARJUN deserves atleast 250 more orders if billions are being spent on a T-72 upgrades. 

Clearly ARMY needs to pull up its socks and change its outlook for the ARMED forces to be effective as a combination. I am so badly waiting for the results of the T-90 showdown with ARJUN.


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## gogbot

Insane said:


> Among India's Armed forces the ARMY is in the worst shape and the modernization is really slow. Wot worries me the most is they are also the most conservative when it comes to supporting domestic industry. I mean, not that you have the best tanks in the world so you are not giving ARJUN it's share. I think the ARJUN deserves atleast 250 more orders if billions are being spent on a T-72 upgrades.
> 
> Clearly ARMY needs to pull up its socks and change its outlook for the ARMED forces to be effective as a combination. I am so badly waiting for the results of the T-90 showdown with ARJUN.



New Arjuns should be ordered to replace T-72's.
That alone is enough.



> *&#8220;It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?&#8221; says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army&#8217;s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. &#8220;India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.&#8221;*



They can get as many T-90's as they want. But its redundant to beat life into a on old tank(t-72 upgrades) when there is a brand new one all ready waiting in the wings


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## Trisonics

gogbot said:


> New Arjuns should be ordered to replace T-72's.
> That alone is enough.
> 
> 
> 
> They can get as many T-90's as they want. But its redundant to beat life into a on old tank(t-72 upgrades) when there is a brand new one all ready waiting in the wings



Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?

With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them


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## Kansu

Trisonics said:


> Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?
> 
> With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them





i completely agree mate. what about new logistics chain? Arjun is heavier than the endurance limits of most of the bridges in india. And how do you plan to use such a tank in such a geography? Nevermind the other problems... i think Project Arjun was born dead. no need to insist to give it life. t-90 is a better option. if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun


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## Robo

Kansu said:


> i completely agree mate. what about new logistics chain? Arjun is heavier than the endurance limits of most of the bridges in india. And how do you plan to use such a tank in such a geography? Nevermind the other problems... i think Project Arjun was born dead. no need to insist to give it life. t-90 is a better option. if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun



Army is Known to be Foreign Puddy , One can recall how they dont want world class Brahmos missile against American missile 

2) Akash Anti Aircraft Missile which Army refuses and Air force Accepted as good missile.

Same with the Tank and Old Army Personal is trained with Russian Tank and they cant handle advance tank like arjun that's why they prefer old of tank instead of Arjun.


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## Kharian_Beast

> if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun



A tank that Turkey rejected on technical grounds after much anticipation? Don't get me wrong I think Ukraine is a great country to go to for access to Russian equipment but India already has a direct pipeline, hence the massive T-90 induction taking place.


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## Kansu

Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
by the way what does Kanjal mean?


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## Kansu

Kharian_Beast said:


> A tank that Turkey rejected on technical grounds after much anticipation? Don't get me wrong I think Ukraine is a great country to go to for access to Russian equipment but India already has a direct pipeline, hence the massive T-90 induction taking place.




We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems. 
We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank  it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
take care mate.
Kansu

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## foxbat

Kansu said:


> Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
> by the way what does Kanjal mean?



These are similar to the comments given for LCA 3-4 years back. The tone of comments for LCA is already changing from unmasked ridicule of an impossible venture to lame complaints about using untested composites and delays. The same will happen for Arjun, sooner than later..


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## gogbot

Trisonics said:


> Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?
> 
> With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them



Now that's just you being an idiot 

Of course the Bloody logistics chain is built around Tanks they already have. They wont have logistics Chains for thanks they might get 

And one point or the other you have to get new equipment and adapt, you cant just keep using the same tanks and then say its because we built our logistics around them, you induct new tanks and build around them as well. 

What would rather have a bunch of old upgraded T-72's or Bunch of Brand new Arjun Heavy tanks. 
You going to have to get new tanks eventualy and upgrade logistics.

Don't make excuses for an army which is making another one of its great idiotic moves since the Bofors deal went sour 20 years ago.

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## Robo

Kansu said:


> Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
> by the way what does Kanjal mean?




Well problems also with T90-, t
1) Their engines heat up in high temp, 
2) They dont have high Accuracy to take target while on the move.
3) Their Armour cant take direct hit, while Arjun Armour can take any Enemy Ammo at point blank range and move on unhurt, got it

Arjun tank tested for 80,000 Km , and Israeli Company Certified it best tank ,


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## Robo

Kansu said:


> We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems.
> We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
> so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank  it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
> take care mate.
> Kansu



then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment. 

Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also


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## Laughing Buddha

Robo said:


> then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment.
> 
> Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also



He is correct... If you ever have a chance to visit south block in Delhi...Then there you will find these weapon agent queued up in every quarter with something new to show or something new to tell....and lots in back channel...Try to visit Defence expo in delhi this month you will gain some knowledge (If you sell crap and tell some official that this is good for your family and you... he will buy it for the country)....

We need a complete revamp on these Babu... who spend lots of time in Russia with whiteskins.....

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## foxbat

Interesting article in Business Standard

Army to spend over Rs5000 cr on obsolete T-72 tank: Rediff.com India News


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## foxbat

^^^^^^^
I think the trend is shifting if MoD statements / actions are anything to go by


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## sab

It is very sad to say that some traitors are there in our armed force too and they are involved in defaming products made by DRDO and swing the tender for foreign products (mainly Russians). There is no prize for guessing the reason for that. In recent trial it is said DRDO has installed instruments like black-box or data recorder of aircraft to prevent sabotage prior to trial (previously the german made engine of four tanks mysteriously stopped functioning in a trial) and Arjun proved itself. Thanks to GOI for promptly arranging for third party trial (by a reputed tank manufacturer, I think from Israel), and bring the truth out.

The Army is now complaing about heavy weight and size of the tank. Were they sleeping while sending and updating recommendations for years?

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## Kansu

Robo said:


> then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment.
> 
> Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also




We wont buy S300 missile systems. We seem interested in them just to make americans think that they are not alone. Do you understand? Also we know what happened greek s300 systems they bought from russia. please spare time and take a look at that...

And you say i dont know about your Arjun. To be honest i know enough about your famous hero MBT  it is famous with its poor engineering. So what else should i know about your tank? go on... please get the Arjun. Build more and more. i was not born when this project started. and it still goes on... By the way Pakistan already built its own tank while India was trying to upgrade and solve the problems of arjun. So i should give up making comment? i think its you who should admit that Arjun is a failure. How much money more will India spare for this tank? the truth is, if Arjun was capable enoughyou wouldnt intend to buy t-90's. Please dont give me the decision of Indian air force as an example on this thread. if such a thing exists, it shows that you lack of vision.

Best Regards
Kansu

ps: Thanks for the answer about Kanjal. i know what it is=) the thing i asked was its meaning in indian language. Thank you again


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## RPK

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy&#37;5Cs-armourdeception/384570/


*Piercing the army's armour of deception *

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST 



Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.



On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when &#8212; almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia &#8212; the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90&#8217;s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army&#8217;s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued &#8212; allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production &#8212; that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia&#8217;s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia&#8217;s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India&#8217;s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan&#8217;s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India&#8217;s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army&#8217;s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident &#8212; and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan &#8212; that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90&#8217;s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn&#8217;t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90&#8217;s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world&#8217;s current tanks, other than France&#8217;s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India&#8217;s Arjun tank, too, has &#8220;hardened&#8221; electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India&#8217;s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s&#8217; drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

&#8220;It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,&#8221; says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. &#8220;Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.&#8221;

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month&#8217;s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

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## DavyJones

Really shocking news about the T-90.
The Army needs to wake up. I feel the Army officers serving today at high ranks are not of the desired quality. Gen Kapoor is a prime example. He has not led the IA correctly and does not inspire confidence.
I hope the Arjun does well and the Army is made to eat humble pie.


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## sab

Kansu said:


> We wont buy S300 missile systems. We seem interested in them just to make americans think that they are not alone. Do you understand? Also we know what happened greek s300 systems they bought from russia. please spare time and take a look at that...
> 
> And you say i dont know about your Arjun. To be honest i know enough about your famous hero MBT  it is famous with its poor engineering. So what else should i know about your tank? go on... please get the Arjun. Build more and more. i was not born when this project started. and it still goes on... By the way Pakistan already built its own tank while India was trying to upgrade and solve the problems of arjun. So i should give up making comment? i think its you who should admit that Arjun is a failure. How much money more will India spare for this tank? the truth is, if Arjun was capable enoughyou wouldnt intend to buy t-90's. Please dont give me the decision of Indian air force as an example on this thread. if such a thing exists, it shows that you lack of vision.
> 
> Best Regards
> Kansu
> 
> ps: Thanks for the answer about Kanjal. i know what it is=) the thing i asked was its meaning in indian language. Thank you again


You have seen none of the tanks in India, Pakistan or China in real battle nor you are qualified to understand technical details. Whatever you read about Arjun is story of denial by Indian Army and gossips in different forums. Let us know if you had any other sources. Please read about recent opinion of Army about Arjun MBT.

September 2007 winter trials - *Indian army said Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures*.

DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.

But &#8230;by some magic (installation of black-box like device or presence of third party expert) in 2008 summer trials Army said in a letter to defense ministry "*the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably' well"*

The Hindu News Update Service


As suggested by Army&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;., *Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert.* They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army&#8230;.

PIB Press Release

However, there is logic if Army is looking ahead two decades and interested in joint venture with Russia for a futuristic tank as none of the options Arjun or T 90 is going to catch up with the development in Tank warfare after a decade or so.

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## conworldus

Funny that India needs a "third party" to evaluate its own tank. If aj is such a wonderful tank and the Indian army is simply too corrupt, then why doesn't India just export it other countries?


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## Kharian_Beast

Kansu said:


> We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems.
> We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
> so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank  it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
> take care mate.
> Kansu



What is the status of Altay? Feel free to PM me what you know, I believe it is off topic here anyways. 

Regards.


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## Kansu

sab said:


> You have seen none of the tanks in India, Pakistan or China in real battle nor you are qualified to understand technical details. Whatever you read about Arjun is story of denial by Indian Army and gossips in different forums. Let us know if you had any other sources. Please read about recent opinion of Army about Arjun MBT.




yes i m not qualified to understand technical details... i guess you are more qualified than me so you can understand the things i cant understand...

Gossips or rumours, whatever... Arjun's delay is a fact. and honestly it is not a delay. Admit it that its a failure. I can write you a big list and pages of explanations about the problems of Arjun but i really dont have desire to do this. Because everybody in the entire world who is interested in Land systems and tanks know the problem(s) of Arjun. if you wish lets keep discussing via pm. And honestly if you can fix my wrong(?) ideas about Arjun, i would be very pleased. nevertheless i would get rid of my prejudgements(?) about your tank.

To be honest i support your Arjun project. it will be very costly for you and so much money spent on such a constantly disabled tank would help my Pak. brothers very much. And in this time period Al Khalid 2 would be developed, may be we can give some of our Altays after 2015 to Pakistan. 

You can praise your junkie as much as you want Dear Brother. But i wont change my opinion untill that tank proves itself... no i dont expect itself to prove in a total war. if it can make 2000+ kms with regular maintenances in desert without any failures near pakistan border i will admit it as a successful tank 
And what about AT weapons? will it be able to stand against HJ-8?


ps: you say none of the tanks are not tested which are still in service in Chinese and pakistan armies. but let me ask you: Did German Leopard see any action? And i think it is the best... Any objections about this?


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## conworldus

Haha couldn't have said it better.



Kansu said:


> yes i m not qualified to understand technical details... i guess you are more qualified than me so you can understand the things i cant understand...
> 
> Gossips or rumours, whatever... Arjun's delay is a fact. and honestly it is not a delay. Admit it that its a failure. I can write you a big list and pages of explanations about the problems of Arjun but i really dont have desire to do this. Because everybody in the entire world who is interested in Land systems and tanks know the problem(s) of Arjun. if you wish lets keep discussing via pm. And honestly if you can fix my wrong(?) ideas about Arjun, i would be very pleased. nevertheless i would get rid of my prejudgements(?) about your tank.
> 
> To be honest i support your Arjun project. it will be very costly for you and so much money spent on such a constantly disabled tank would help my Pak. brothers very much. And in this time period Al Khalid 2 would be developed, may be we can give some of our Altays after 2015 to Pakistan.
> 
> You can praise your junkie as much as you want Dear Brother. But i wont change my opinion untill that tank proves itself... no i dont expect itself to prove in a total war. if it can make 2000+ kms with regular maintenances in desert without any failures near pakistan border i will admit it as a successful tank
> And what about AT weapons? will it be able to stand against HJ-8?
> 
> 
> ps: you say none of the tanks are not tested which are still in service in Chinese and pakistan armies. but let me ask you: Did German Leopard see any action? And i think it is the best... Any objections about this?


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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> Piercing the army's armour of deception
> 
> 
> *Piercing the army's armour of deception *
> 
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST
> 
> 
> 
> Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.
> 
> 
> 
> On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when  almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia  the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.
> 
> No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.
> 
> The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.
> 
> The deception stemmed from the armys determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued  allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production  that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russias army had spurned the T-90.
> 
> To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russias arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from Indias T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistans anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.
> 
> Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.
> 
> The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that Indias pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Armys recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.
> 
> Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident  and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan  that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didnt work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.
> 
> Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.
> 
> With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the worlds current tanks, other than Frances LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. Indias Arjun tank, too, has hardened electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.
> 
> Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip Indias eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.
> 
> The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.
> 
> Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.
> 
> It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank, says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.
> 
> If the Arjun performs strongly in next months comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.



Indian Army High command


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## brahmastra

may be its time for 'Arjun' to outperform 'Bhishma'. Again....

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## gogbot

brahmastra said:


> may be its time for 'Arjun' to outperform 'Bhishma'. Again....



 has it been pre ordaned


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## brahmastra

gogbot said:


> has it been pre ordaned



I'm not sure but I think DRDO forced MoD to put their tank 'Arjun' headon with Indian Army/Babu's 'Bhishma'. and Army was avoiding trials. DRDO looks confudance here but the ARMY.

So, my gut feeling says that we should be ready about 'upset' in the match. and that is the reason I'm saying that 
'History can repeat itself'.

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## jha

i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...


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## LCA Tejas

jha said:


> i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...



Its better for their topographic conditions buddy, and We cannot modify that with accordance to our needs Like we do to T-90 Bhishma..... Russia has Given us full liberty to do that...... And Moreover India dosent need any other foreign MBT other than T-90's....


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## Trichy

jha said:


> i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...



with out our indigenous defense production India never become a developed nation... I say it also for all Civil sectors!!!


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## yashraj

I think Arjun is way batter then T 90 in Fire power, mobility as well as Protection then why this *** H@le don't purchase 2000 of them and give some work , expertise & money to our people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## yashraj

I think Arjun is way batter then T 90 in Fire power, mobility as well as Protection then why this *** H@les don't purchase 2000 of them and give some work , expertise & money to our people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## foxbat

brahmastra said:


> may be its time for 'Arjun' to outperform 'Bhishma'. Again....



I seriously doubt it. If army is not keen on the tank they will find 100 different ways to dsicredit it. 

Ever tried getting a user to accept a software he doesnt want..??


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## Mahakaya

conworldus said:


> Funny that India needs a "third party" to evaluate its own tank. If aj is such a wonderful tank and the Indian army is simply too corrupt, then why doesn't India just export it other countries?



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: Colombia interested in MBT Arjun!

Here you go!!

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## Honor

yashraj said:


> I think Arjun is way batter then T 90 in Fire power, mobility as well as Protection then why this *** H@les don't purchase 2000 of them and give some work , expertise & money to our people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Why? Have you go to deeper thought? It makes no logic!!!!


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## Raje amar

chill guies, our army, come what may, will end up with around 2000 Arjun. but the point is should we stop upgradetation of our current MBT - T 72, which are night blind. you couldnt produce them over night. it will at least take a half a decade. best case senario upgrade at least 30&#37; of T 72 and also go on full blast producing Arjun. 2015 i see around 300 upgraded T 72, 1500 T 90, 2500 Arjun. so chears.........


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## Kharian_Beast

He's right mates, Indian T-72's are fodder, it's best they take up entrenched positions and you should stop upgrading when half the world including the force is saying the tanks are garbage. 

Start Arjun induction right away along with T-90, it's the logical solution. The question is how long will it take? To be honest time is on India's side to begin with. It still stands a valid point that T-90S can give any Pakistani tank a tough challenge and there's no major armor upgrade intended for another decade+ because Al Zarrar is not finished and this thing we have to bear with for at least 15 - 20 years more (Upgraded Type-59 that saw battle in 71...way too old). 

Also you guys need to stop looking so negatively on the Bhishma. It's a world class tank, ask the Sauds. They could have easily gotten Leclercs or Tigers. However they haven't inducted that many of them, so let's see.


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## sab

Kansu said:


> yes i m not qualified to understand technical details... i guess you are more qualified than me so you can understand the things i cant understand...
> 
> Gossips or rumours, whatever... Arjun's delay is a fact. and honestly it is not a delay. Admit it that its a failure. I can write you a big list and pages of explanations about the problems of Arjun but i really dont have desire to do this. Because everybody in the entire world who is interested in Land systems and tanks know the problem(s) of Arjun. if you wish lets keep discussing via pm. And honestly if you can fix my wrong(?) ideas about Arjun, i would be very pleased. nevertheless i would get rid of my prejudgements(?) about your tank.
> 
> To be honest i support your Arjun project. it will be very costly for you and so much money spent on such a constantly disabled tank would help my Pak. brothers very much. And in this time period Al Khalid 2 would be developed, may be we can give some of our Altays after 2015 to Pakistan.
> 
> You can praise your junkie as much as you want Dear Brother. But i wont change my opinion untill that tank proves itself... no i dont expect itself to prove in a total war. if it can make 2000+ kms with regular maintenances in desert without any failures near pakistan border i will admit it as a successful tank
> And what about AT weapons? will it be able to stand against HJ-8?
> 
> 
> ps: you say none of the tanks are not tested which are still in service in Chinese and pakistan armies. but let me ask you: Did German Leopard see any action? And i think it is the best... Any objections about this?


No brother , I am not qualified that much too.

While praising Arjun we have to do the bitter task of cursing our own Army officials as currupt. You will find many among us who keep the same opinion. Even if we dont go about technical details (simply because those are claims by the manufacturer -almost no proper sources are available from where we can know). We just mentioned suspicious action of Indian Army regarding Arjun because denial of Army is the source of all criticism against it. Now there is a U -turn in their opinion about the MBT. About third party audit I gave the press release of GOI in the link.

Present fact is DRDO is pushing GOI to field Arjun against T 90 for a comparative trial and Army is trying to skip it somehow. So I will give benefit of doubt to DRDO.

About armour, it is said its armour (Kanchan) withstanded fire from T-72 in point blank range in testing. But there is no way to confirm actual fact. But there was no complain of Army atleast abou armour.

About Leopard or other Western tanks we give benefit of doubt because of their technical advancement, experience and credibility which is not the case for India, Pakistan or China.

BTW I must claim India is more transperent among these three, else you would never be able to know about its many failures.Because we come to know about those failures from government source first.Have you ever heard of failure in testing of any weapon system from Pakistan or China? Would you say it is possible????

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## Kansu

sab said:


> BTW I must claim India is more transperent among these three, else you would never be able to know about its many failures.Because we come to know about those failures from government source first.Have you ever heard of failure in testing of any weapon system from Pakistan or China? Would you say it is possible????




too right mate, too right... 
i hope you can make that tank work. if not, you will be have to buy russian equipment. and honestly, its the only thing can make a serious difference in sub continent because most of the system used are chinese or russian. And most of the chinese systems can be considered as russian too... But i wait for the result with a great curiosity 
Regards
Kansubeg

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## Hulk

Kansu said:


> too right mate, too right...
> i hope you can make that tank work. if not, you will be have to buy russian equipment. and honestly, its the only thing can make a serious difference in sub continent because most of the system used are chinese or russian. And most of the chinese systems can be considered as russian too... But i wait for the result with a great curiosity
> Regards
> Kansubeg



Stop worrying about our country, worry about your. We will take care of India.


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## Khajur

rpraveenkum said:


> Piercing the army's armour of deception
> 
> 
> *Piercing the army's armour of deception *
> 
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST



If true this scandal is far worse that Bofors ...atleast with Bofors we had a great weapon that proved its mettle in kargil conflict.


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## Kansu

indianrabbit said:


> Stop worrying about our country, worry about your. We will take care of India.



i see, you mean ''mind your own business'' 
nobody worries for your country. we just wonder the results. thats all. And thank you for your advice, but there are much more qualified people than me who takes care of her.
Regards
Kansubeg


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## Dark Angel

Kansu said:


> i see, you mean ''mind your own business''
> nobody worries for your country. we just wonder the results. thats all. And thank you for your advice, but there are much more qualified people than me who takes care of her.
> Regards
> Kansubeg




The feeling is mutual mate


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## Hellfire

Gazzi said:


> This article is from Feb 2009 , can anyone please calrify if the Arjun is being scrapped from further research and production. I actually though South Asia may be the new defence equipment manufacturer, regardless of whether Indian, Pakistani and I suppose China will fall into the Asia part.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Indian Army looses battle against Arjun Tank, but, will there be Arjun Mark-2? | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion
> 
> ndian Army lost its battle and Arjun Tank will ride into the Indian Army regiments defeating its most hostile evaluators. This is a strange case in which Indian Army the creator of Arjun Tank turned into Frankenstein. Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley take note.
> 
> Indian Army developed cold feet (again) on the T-90 versus Arjun Tank comparative trials after witnessing the accelerated usage cum reliability trial (AUCRT) of Main Battle Tank Arjun that began in December 2007. Then we saw parliamentary reports by Indian Army on the failure of Arjun Tanks in AUCRT, that was thrashed in media as well as in parliament. To run salt of Indian army ego, DRDO will hand it over in a formal function we may witness in february end or march, when 17  18 tanks will be handed over to Indian Army. Atleast 50 Arjun Tanks is expected to be inducted this year.
> 
> There might not be Arjun Tank mark  2 tanks rolling and production may cease after the current order unless there is a miracle. Indian Army had given some observations to DRDO after the AUCRT. Some points were valid on the metallurgy and life of certain parts (it was prepared by the actual evaluators unlike the parliamentary report). DRDO addressed it.
> 
> The future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) GSQR and research is shaping up. The new policy of user (Indian Army in this case) has to put its own money in the project, will put some responsibility on the user. In addition we will witness user and the research agency sharing responsibility. There will be involvement of private sector. The question is how many private sector companies will want to work with Indian Army on its projects. Some companies like MRF had lost money on the Arjun Tank Project due to Indian Army attitude. The Pinaka project may be an indicator if Indian Army is worth being associated with.



answer is a simple No!

The Arjun platform may be slowly developed to Mk 2 form with intention to integrate it in the coming decade. Its still to be seen whether the GoI is willing to allocate the funds for the same and willing to take bold steps for co-development of requisite subsystems. The recent allocation of additional Rs 8K crores for LCA and news of additional Akash batteries being inducted have given positive indications - the latters in terms of breakthrough in ABM tech subsystems as this missile system is also a part of ABM


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## sab

Kansu said:


> too right mate, too right...
> i hope you can make that tank work. if not, you will be have to buy russian equipment. and honestly, its the only thing can make a serious difference in sub continent because most of the system used are chinese or russian. And most of the chinese systems can be considered as russian too... But i wait for the result with a great curiosity
> Regards
> Kansubeg


I welcome your wish...and agreed to the facts you mentioned-most of the equipments here are originated from Russia. If the results of trials tilts in favour of Arjun-we will have one more thing from our third world nation to cheers about.


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## Hellfire

Robo said:


> Well problems also with T90-, t
> 1) Their engines heat up in high temp,
> 2) They dont have high Accuracy to take target while on the move.
> 3) Their Armour cant take direct hit, while Arjun Armour can take any Enemy Ammo at point blank range and move on unhurt, got it
> 
> Arjun tank tested for 80,000 Km , and Israeli Company Certified it best tank ,



Point 1

False. All equipment eventually breaks down in those temps ..... this is from personal experience

Point 2

False. Pure and simple. Accuracy on movement is totally determined by factors not governed exclusively by yourself. Topography as also the relative mobility of the target do play an important part

Point 3

Arjun cant also ... you have to see the acceptable levels of protection. Agreed Arjun is slightly better in terms of main armour.


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## Hellfire

Raje amar said:


> chill guies, our army, come what may, will end up with around 2000 Arjun. but the point is should we stop upgradetation of our current MBT - T 72, which are night blind. you couldnt produce them over night. it will at least take a half a decade. best case senario upgrade at least 30% of T 72 and also go on full blast producing Arjun. 2015 i see around 300 upgraded T 72, 1500 T 90, 2500 Arjun. so chears.........



Ok for our amusement we stop upgradation of T-72s. Fair. Now will you compute and tell me how much time you shall take to get the Arjuns in place with adequate logistical and ordnance stocks so as to maintain adequate war preparedness?

Suggest how do we transport tanks to North Sikkim and Ladakh regions where the Tibetian Plateau provides an adequate tankable country? And how do we, in theory, put in adequate numbers quickly (comparatively) in case of a future armed conflict (totally theoretically) and in case of a breakthrough obtained to exploit the situation?


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## Hellfire

Kharian_Beast said:


> He's right mates, Indian T-72's are fodder, it's best they take up entrenched positions and you should stop upgrading when half the world including the force is saying the tanks are garbage.



Fodder will have to be seen in any future conflict ..... as of now, our doctrine will ensure adequate air superiority for us to protect majority of them ... (we hope so anyways )


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## gogbot

hellfire said:


> Ok for our amusement we stop upgradation of T-72s. Fair. Now will you compute and tell me how much time you shall take to get the Arjuns in place with adequate logistical and ordnance stocks so as to maintain adequate war preparedness?
> 
> Suggest how do we transport tanks to North Sikkim and Ladakh regions where the Tibetian Plateau provides an adequate tankable country? And how do we, in theory, put in adequate numbers quickly (comparatively) in case of a future armed conflict (totally theoretically) and in case of a breakthrough obtained to exploit the situation?



We have to get new tanks at one point or the other.
Arjun is much better than a T-72, you have to agree on that

The best way to induct it is by compromise really,
The Army upgrades a specific number of T-72. while concurrently Arjuns are being procured and inducted, replacing un-upgraded T-72's.

This goes on till they can meet at a middle ground when there are enough Arjuns with Logistics in place, to stop upgrading T-72's 

And then Just Induct more Arjuns.

whats wrong with that, You made it sound in practical or impossible


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## Hellfire

gogbot said:


> We have to get new tanks at one point or the other.
> Arjun is much better than a T-72, you have to agree on that



Yes I agree we have to get new tanks. But that shall be a generation beyond what is existing today, and Arjun in its present form is a tank that should have begun induction a decade back and been in adequate numbers today, not 7 years hence.

I return to my oft mentioned point that the tank became a viable and good piece only in 2006, 6 years too late.

There is no comparision between the T-72 and Arjun, however the upgradation is necessary as you can not simply wipe out the entire war stocks. And its not easy to introduce a weapons platform within a few months. You need to do so over a few years. Unlike what a fellow poster from our neighbouring country has suggested his country can do (produce adequate numbers overnight)!!!!



gogbot said:


> The best way to induct it is by compromise really,
> The Army upgrades a specific number of T-72. while concurrently Arjuns are being procured and inducted, replacing un-upgraded T-72's.
> 
> This goes on till they can meet at a middle ground when there are enough Arjuns with Logistics in place, to stop upgrading T-72's
> 
> And then Just Induct more Arjuns.



How do you solve the issue of ensuring adequate war stocks being buffered and kept ready even in compromise formula that you are proposing? How do you delegate resources for production of tanks (Arjun) and ancillaries, while at the same time maintain adequate lines for the other weapons platforms? How do you solve the problem of inadequate transportation, service areas, setting up of base repairs for a new system while trying to maintain an adequate platform stock in service to maintain war preparedness in an increasingly fluid situation in a neighbouring country?

How do you solve the problem of having mechanised elements with tank squadron ready for deployment in high altitude with an increasingly hostile situation develping in the north?



gogbot said:


> whats wrong with that, You made it sound in practical or impossible



I reall didnt make it sound as such ..... I only asked for solutions that probably the best of policy makers today can not find a solution to.

Its one thing to promote indigenous production but totally another issue to do so retrospectively and too late in the day which may seriously lead to compromise in Army war preparedness.


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## Trisonics

gogbot said:


> Now that's just you being an idiot
> 
> Of course the Bloody logistics chain is built around Tanks they already have. They wont have logistics Chains for thanks they might get
> 
> And one point or the other you have to get new equipment and adapt, you cant just keep using the same tanks and then say its because we built our logistics around them, you induct new tanks and build around them as well.
> 
> What would rather have a bunch of old upgraded T-72's or Bunch of Brand new Arjun Heavy tanks.
> You going to have to get new tanks eventualy and upgrade logistics.
> 
> Don't make excuses for an army which is making another one of its great idiotic moves since the Bofors deal went sour 20 years ago.



Why am I an Idiot? Did you read my post correctly? 

There is no doubt we need new tanks, reading about the T-90s the situation is even worse!! so is Arjun the answer then? debatable 

think logically, IA will not throw away the T-90s, so are you suggesting we have two different logistics? since we will have T90s and Arjun in good numbers?

I was merely suggesting that Arjun is not solving problems, not because its not a good product, because its coming a decade too late...

I do agree with you on one point, we do need new tanks, but IMO it should neither be the T90 nor the Arjun...Feel free to disagree..


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## gogbot

Trisonics said:


> Why am I an Idiot? Did you read my post correctly?



You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72

army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.

But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems. 




Trisonics said:


> There is no doubt we need new tanks, reading about the T-90s the situation is even worse!! so is Arjun the answer then? debatable
> 
> think logically, IA will not throw away the T-90s, so are you suggesting we have two different logistics? since we will have T90s and Arjun in good numbers?
> 
> I was merely suggesting that Arjun is not solving problems, not because its not a good product, because its coming a decade too late...
> 
> I do agree with you on one point, we do need new tanks, but IMO it should neither be the T90 nor the Arjun...Feel free to disagree..



Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.

Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.

I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.

get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.

Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces

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## gogbot

hellfire said:


> Yes I agree we have to get new tanks. But that shall be a generation beyond what is existing today, and Arjun in its present form is a tank that should have begun induction a decade back and been in adequate numbers today, not 7 years hence.
> 
> I return to my oft mentioned point that the tank became a viable and good piece only in 2006, 6 years too late.
> 
> There is no comparision between the T-72 and Arjun, however the upgradation is necessary as you can not simply wipe out the entire war stocks. And its not easy to introduce a weapons platform within a few months. You need to do so over a few years. Unlike what a fellow poster from our neighbouring country has suggested his country can do (produce adequate numbers overnight)!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> How do you solve the issue of ensuring adequate war stocks being buffered and kept ready even in compromise formula that you are proposing? How do you delegate resources for production of tanks (Arjun) and ancillaries, while at the same time maintain adequate lines for the other weapons platforms? How do you solve the problem of inadequate transportation, service areas, setting up of base repairs for a new system while trying to maintain an adequate platform stock in service to maintain war preparedness in an increasingly fluid situation in a neighbouring country?
> 
> How do you solve the problem of having mechanised elements with tank squadron ready for deployment in high altitude with an increasingly hostile situation develping in the north?
> 
> 
> 
> I reall didnt make it sound as such ..... I only asked for solutions that probably the best of policy makers today can not find a solution to.
> 
> Its one thing to promote indigenous production but totally another issue to do so retrospectively and too late in the day which may seriously lead to compromise in Army war preparedness.



There you go again.

You You make it seem as if its some kind of issue.

Lets get something right, the current state of our army is deplorable.

No artillery, no tank, slow pace of modernization.

The other two branches are establishing themselves as a force to be reckoned with. 5th gen fighter, Aircraft carriers, Nuclear submarines , Indigenous fighters . etc

What has the army done, Its has plans for a 1500 T-90's and that's it.
And when question why The army chooses to spend Millions on T-72's , while a far superiors Arjun is available.

They say essentially.

Logictical issues, we simply cannot adapt, or change.

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## Tejas-MkII

gogbot said:


> We have to get new tanks at one point or the other.
> Arjun is much better than a T-72, you have to agree on that
> 
> The best way to induct it is by compromise really,
> The Army upgrades a specific number of T-72. while concurrently Arjuns are being procured and inducted, replacing un-upgraded T-72's.
> 
> *This goes on till they can meet at a middle ground when there are enough Arjuns with Logistics in place, to stop upgrading T-72's *
> 
> And then Just Induct more Arjuns.
> 
> whats wrong with that, You made it sound in practical or impossible



Completely agree with the bold statement, it seems very practical and gettable but this simple things is not getting inside of the thick head IA walla..


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## Raje amar

hellfire said:


> Ok for our amusement we stop upgradation of T-72s. Fair. Now will you compute and tell me how much time you shall take to get the Arjuns in place with adequate logistical and ordnance stocks so as to maintain adequate war preparedness?
> 
> Suggest how do we transport tanks to North Sikkim and Ladakh regions where the Tibetian Plateau provides an adequate tankable country? And how do we, in theory, put in adequate numbers quickly (comparatively) in case of a future armed conflict (totally theoretically) and in case of a breakthrough obtained to exploit the situation?



i think you miss some points, Arjun is a 54 Ton tank & will be placed on the borders of Pakistan where the train is either Deserts of Gujrat & Rajasthan or planes of punjab. but the borders along China are mountanes & on tahnk let it be Arjun, T 90 or T 72 is suitable there. so IA has sent RFI for the light tanks.

as far as lt issues of logistics & maintenance are concerns with the evolution of new systems you need to invest for these in all the cases, let it be IA, IN or IAF.

but upgarding all the T72 is a shear loss of money.


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## Hellfire

gogbot said:


> You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
> The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72



No. There is no such claim of Arjun causing more problems than it can fix. Its the problem of introducing it, which shall be problematic in terms of ground realities associated with introduction of any new weapons platform. 
T-72s were inducted in 1980s. So am unsure why are you comparing the two apart from the fact you find upgrade to Ajeya standards as waste.



gogbot said:


> army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
> Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.



Yes the tank is as it was requested, 6 years after Army dumped it (after Year 2000 trials). By that time T-90s were coming in in sufficient numbers. Strange isn't it? That inspite of Army dumping it permanently in 2000, no one in DRDO or MoD was listening and funds were being pumped in nevertheless?



gogbot said:


> But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems.



BFAT carriages. They are hardly in a couple of scores. You needs hundreds.Issue is not of ability, but in terms of cost in monetary and time.




gogbot said:


> Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
> In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.
> 
> Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.



Army submitted its listing. The fault is with MoD and GoI. They develp cold feet everytime anyone shouts "kickbacks". Barack missile deal is a great example and the blacklisting of SA Denel (which was involved with co-development of Indian SPG Project Bhim) Now dont even get into area of this mess, result of political nonsense and lack of appropriate will power, who the bloody hell elects them -? Guess? The citizens of India! Election commission never even sends the ballot paper to Armed Forces personnel. Soldiers have not voted in past 14-15 years on an average save for one odd occassion, that too when they happened to be on leave!!!!!! 



gogbot said:


> I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.
> 
> get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.
> 
> Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces



Some small math for you :

The equipment ratio for every Tank regiment is 45 tanks authorised with equal number in reserve. That means each tank regiment is 90 tanks.
Arjun was ready in desired form only in 2006. This army does not deny. Now start that count with the number of Tank regiments in Indian Army (not less than 150) and multiply the requirement of tanks and divide it by the building capacity (at present not more than 50/year: with dedicated lines and three shifts on, only maximum 150-200 you achieve on the optimistic side)

Now get into the logistical set up. You have three lines of ammunition. You need time to convert the assembly lines of your ammunition factory which will take minimum a year to do so and achieve optimal production level. Now build the stocks for all the levels .... it will take minimum 5 years to have adequate stocks (including reserves to wage war for over 60 days)

and all this while you have not paid any attention to your existing stock of T-55s, Vijayants, PT-76s, T-72s and T-90s. No spares etc to be made for these to have the above for Arjun ready.

You are looking at a time frame of minimum 10-14 years for optimal levels to be achieved keeping in view the threat perception.

Now include the time to create ARVs, Sarvatra Class Bridging equipment, reinforce your primary bridges across DCB to launch an offensive, BFATs and establishing of support areas and Base repair Depots.

The costs in terms of refit is tremendous. And by the time an optimal level is achieved a new generation of tank is needed (IA is going for same in 2015-2020 under Army Vision 2020). Then you will infact spend crores more to upgrade your Arjun ..... to mkII standards and reinduct all over

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## Hellfire

gogbot said:


> There you go again.
> 
> You You make it seem as if its some kind of issue.
> 
> Lets get something right, the current state of our army is deplorable.
> 
> No artillery, no tank, slow pace of modernization..



I agree that the condition is bad, but not as bad as could have been. Maybe we can discuss this off thread.




gogbot said:


> The other two branches are establishing themselves as a force to be reckoned with. 5th gen fighter, Aircraft carriers, Nuclear submarines , Indigenous fighters . etc
> 
> What has the army done, Its has plans for a 1500 T-90's and that's it.
> And when question why The army chooses to spend Millions on T-72's , while a far superiors Arjun is available.
> 
> They say essentially.
> 
> Logictical issues, we simply cannot adapt, or change.



which 5th gen AC do they have? may I know? How many Aircraft carriers? How many nuclear submarine? How many Tejas inducted?

would love to have those figures from you. Oh incidentally, how many Landing Ships Tank/Troops (LSTs) does IN hold?

as to logic of T-90s, have posted enough of the same above.


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## Hellfire

Raje amar said:


> i think you miss some points,.



I dont think so. I dont miss them. Am not trained to miss anything.



Raje amar said:


> Arjun is a 54 Ton tank & will be placed on the borders of Pakistan where the train is either Deserts of Gujrat & Rajasthan or planes of punjab.



You mean, you wont transport the tanks there? You will assemble all of them there itself? Ok now I may sound daft. But if that is not the case, then do you know how many Class VI bridges we have in the region? Am sure you dont. In addition, have you any idea of the DCB defenses built on either side? And the topographical obstacle facing IA in Punjab? Kindly do some basic research for the same. It shall immensly helping in your understanding of the issue.




Raje amar said:


> but the borders along China are mountanes & on tahnk let it be Arjun, T 90 or T 72 is suitable there. so IA has sent RFI for the light tanks.



I know the terrain. North Sikkim and Ladakh are excellent tankable country. Comparatively easy to lift T-90s and T-72s after breaking them down than Arjun (which anyways will have spares issues) RFI is for upgradation. We have assets in the location already. They have been there for over 2 decades now.



Raje amar said:


> as far as lt issues of logistics & maintenance are concerns with the evolution of new systems you need to invest for these in all the cases, let it be IA, IN or IAF.



But none of them will compromise on war preparedness. And they are much smaller arm than IA. So dont even begin to compare!



Raje amar said:


> but upgarding all the T72 is a shear loss of money.



Really? scenario: we accept Arjun and it shall take 10-15 years to induct (read my previous post to know why) and in the meanwhile we dump T-72s and are left with a thousand odd T-90s and few hundreds Vijayants, T-55s and "OBSOLETE" T-72s whose spares and ammunition is anyways not being produced any more as resources are being rejigged to induct Arjun (and T-90s at same time are being brought to strength) so are we supposed to request say PAF not to strike our ammunition dumps where the T-series tank ammo is lying and spares are kept as we are inducting a new tank?......... what a nightmare !!!!!!

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## sab

Can upgradation improve 1)mobility..2)fire power..3)Armour...three basic things??? Anyone has idea about it? Plz share.

If the answer is not...there is no logic in upgrading T-72 which will be no match for modrn tanks in basic issues.

If yes....will there be any difference between upgradation and building a new????


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## Hellfire

sab said:


> Can upgradation improve 1)mobility..2)fire power..3)Armour...three basic things??? Anyone has idea about it? Plz share.
> 
> If the answer is not...there is no logic in upgrading T-72 which will be no match for modrn tanks in basic issues.
> 
> If yes....will there be any difference between upgradation and building a new????



Yes to all ....!

But it certainly does not surpass induction of a new platform which is generation ahead. 

If you are talking only of Arjun, yes its better than T-72 as the latter was at its optimal design in late 70s whereas Arjun was so in 2006!!! So there shall always be a persistent gap.

By comparing the T-72 and Arjun,we are wandering off course. Its like comparing T-55 and T-72
and Vijayant with T-90. There can not be any comparision

The Ajeya standards will upgrade our present T-72 stocks to be sufficiently capable till middle of the coming decade. By that time a new tank shall be inducted and T-72s relegated slowly into reserves like T-55s and Vijayants (and a few Centurions still lying around). We kind of follow the US-Soviet doctrines in having 1st 2nd 3rd etc lines of equipment too. In case we need to expand our force level in acute stages of national crisis.

What I emphatically have always said is that the controversy is needless. 124 tanks (not even equipping more than 1 regiment fully) was forced on Army and the same was done under political pressure with assurance that the tank would be ready (by 2000).

DRDO should infact now concentrate in creating a Mk II version to be ready by 2015 from the experience it has gained, which shall be suitable platform for induction of the new generation of tanks instead of wasting its time on the present tank.

Few projects which army (specifically mechanized and armoured corps) had high hopes on and were not delivered by DRDO and alternatives to which were suppressed by DRDO on mere promises of Indegenisation and assured production of same "soon"

1. Abhay IFV : An Infantry Fighting/Carrier Vehicle meant to replace BMP-II Sarath Fighting Vehicle held by Indian Army Armored Divs/Independent Brigades/Regiments and Mechanized Units. Status - not likely to come. No word on it apart from some scrap on net.

2. Bhim SPG : DRDO repeatedly claimed to be making this in collaboration with Denel. There were issues as the main gun was to be mated with T-72 chasis and it was taking far too much time, but DRDO kept assuring the army and as a result no Artillery Equipment was inducted. The system was necessary for providing mobile firesupport to mechanized/armored forces in any offensive operation and is especially significant as IBGs come on ground. Status: Contract cancelled as GoI blacklisted the firm.


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## Goodperson

gogbot said:


> You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
> The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72
> 
> army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
> Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.
> 
> But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
> In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.
> 
> Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.
> 
> I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.
> 
> get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.
> 
> Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces



Hold on was someone called Idiot on disagreeing on this ? I do not think the tank were made as per Army specifications, Nowhere army was involved in different stages of development.

*The Army had placed its Rs.17.60 billion order for the tanks in March 2000 *Link
*

Results of trial below- Tell me why would someone should be interested ????

July 2005 *- During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius 
Result fail Link

*Summer 2006*- the 2006 army trial results showed that "the decade-old problems of overheating persist" and that "tank&#8217;s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner&#8217;s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjun&#8217;s abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee.
Result - Failure - Link

*September 2007 winter trials* - the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures. Result Fail - Link

DRDO claimed sabotage Link

*2008 summer trials*- Auxiliary User Cum reliability trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun MBT was conducted from September 2007 to summer of 2008. In a report to the Parliamentary standing committee the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including four engine failures within only 1000 kilometers. Link
The Army wrote in the report that during the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels". Link

Sabotage was suspected, but the Army rejected that any sabotage happened during the trials.DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure".Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities

Result - ?? Link1 Link 2


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## Goodperson

I am not happy with nonprofessional of DRDO nor with state of Procurement by Minister or Army and the source (Russia) everyone has to be blamed. But thing to note is its Army who is going to face the War not any other organizations. Taxpayer will keep on paying for all procurements Good or Bad, Well thought or ill thought. Forget T72 even T90 seems not ideal after reading below report.


Piercing the army's armour of deception
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 4, 2010, 0:31 IST

*Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.*

On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when  almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia  the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

*The deception stemmed from the armys determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued  allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production  that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russias army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russias arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from Indias T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistans anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.*

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that Indias pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Armys recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

*FRAUD ON THE NATION?
* Key operational systems were kept out to show a comparable price
* Parliament wasnt told and nor of the plan for supplementary contracts
* The performance on ground showed it was an appalling mistake 
* Which has set in train even more costly cover-ups 
* All this, while the indigenous Arjun is free of all these minuses*

*Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident  and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan  that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didnt work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.*

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

*With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the worlds current tanks, other than Frances LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. Indias Arjun tank, too, has hardened electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.*

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip Indias eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

*Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.*

It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank, says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.

If the Arjun performs strongly in next months comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.


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## conworldus

Arjunk = a piece of garbage waiting to flop


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## LCA Tejas

conworldus said:


> Arjunk = a piece of garbage waiting to flop



Ouch, Wait Until trials Buddy... keep Assumptions aside till then.


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## Hellfire

conworldus said:


> Arjunk = a piece of garbage waiting to flop



wont call it a piece of garbage,buddy

its now a good piece ... only we moved on .... 

am waiting for MkII to come and that may very well see induction ......

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## SBD-3

Ruag said:


> By that logic, the number of JF-17s purchased by PLAAF speaks volumes about the fighter jet's quality.



how many times will I have to answer this..........The fighter selection choice......*Depends* on the objective of airforce.......Why do US needs such a diversified base of bombers......they can build more F-22s rather than B-2s or B-52s or B-1Bs.........JF-17 speaks for itself.....if you don't like it.....you have every right to..


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## conworldus

hellfire said:


> wont call it a piece of garbage,buddy
> 
> its now a good piece ... only we moved on ....
> 
> am waiting for MkII to come and that may very well see induction ......



When the customer says it's no good then it is no good. The Indian army must have done internal testing to reject More Arjun. The purpose of this trial is to rid some ego.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Good news if its true.
Im waiting for AK2


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## Sanchez

conworldus said:


> Arjunk = a piece of garbage waiting to flop



I can see that either of the results becomes a slap or embarrassment to the elephant. A nice circus show!


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## faithfulguy

Sanchez said:


> I can see that either of the results becomes a slap or embarrassment to the elephant. A nice circus show!



well, of course, there is the next generation product. A next generation tank. A next generation plane. A next generation missile that will work. A next generation .....


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## Trisonics

faithfulguy said:


> well, of course, there is the next generation product. A next generation tank. A next generation plane. A next generation missile that will work. A next generation .....



and of course we are proud, since for once we are thinking ahead


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## Trisonics

conworldus said:


> When the customer says it's no good then it is no good. The Indian army must have done internal testing to reject More Arjun. The purpose of this trial is to rid some ego.



What will you do if the customer was short sighted and forgot that he himself had given the specifications? The argument here is not about Arjun being a good product or not, but something else. Please start again from post #1


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Trisonics said:


> What will you do if the customer was short sighted and forgot that he himself had given the specifications? The argument here is not about Arjun being a good product or not, but something else. Please start again from post #1



Are u tellin us that indian army is short sighted?and arjun was always a good tanks?


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## sab

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Are u tellin us that indian army is short sighted?and arjun was always a good tanks?


Why Arjun MBT has been criticised as an underperforming tank? Because IA denied to accept it saying so. That is the source of all criticism (to the extent of mockery). Now some reports have come out which put decision of IA under scanner. *There has to be something serious (which ofcourse we dont know), else why should GOI go for a third party audit by a foreign manufacturer when army is saying the said Tank is an underperformer*. BTW GOI said in press realese that Arjun has been certified as a good enough battle tank, very much suitable for IA. And ofcourse there is twist in Army's perception about Arjun after winter trial, 2008. We just want to know what is the truth. *In India, Army is not above all.*


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Are u tellin us that indian army is short sighted?and arjun was always a good tanks?



Yes..The procurement process of IA has been short sighted (and may be a little corrupt) in this respect..Thats changing now.. thank god.. some saner minds in MoD I guess..


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## faithfulguy

Trisonics said:


> and of course we are proud, since for once we are thinking ahead



Definitely, that is the way that Indians can be proud. By always thinking of the future.


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## faithfulguy

karan.1970 said:


> Yes..The procurement process of IA has been short sighted (and may be a little corrupt) in this respect..Thats changing now.. thank god.. some saner minds in MoD I guess..



Thanks for an honest analysis. For a while, I thought India can do no wrong.


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## jagjitnatt

I expect Arjun to be exported if Indian army doesn't order more tanks. Arjun is a good tank no doubt. Its armour is up there comparable to the best in the world. There are no issues with its mobility, turret, engine. It is a quality tank, just a little too late. Anyways, there are a lot of countries looking to replace their old tanks.
Lets wait and see what happens.

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## holysaturn

Saturday, 6 February 2010
A plan for the Arjun!

Just a few clarifications to put my recent three-article series on Indian tanks in context.

1. I think that the conclusion that some visitors are drawing --- that everything Russian is bad --- amounts to overreaction to my articles. As one critic of the articles correctly posted, Russia has provided us systems that nobody else was willing to provide at prices that nobody else could match. Even if that was in the past, and Russia today adopts a far more hard-nosed, where-are-the-dollars approach towards arms sales to India, one would be ill-advised to forget history.

For example, one visitor posted about my article: Did you read the parts that establish that the T-90 is at worst a piece of junk, or at best as good/bad as the obsolete T-72? Well, Id just point out that you are reading more into my account of the T-90 deal than I actually said. I certainly said that the deal was tailored to bypass parliamentary opposition, India ended up getting an under-equipped T-90 tank, important tank systems failed because they could not withstand exposure to the Indian environment, there were problems in transferring technology, and we have not yet managed to get the tank upgraded to the level that it should have been acquired in.

All that is true, yes! But also remember that, compared to the T-72, the T-90 is a much better tank. And, whether you like it or not, the T-90 will be in service with the Indian Army till at least 2040, maybe even 2050.

2. I also think that anyone who argues: scrap all Russian equipment and go Indian is fantasizing. Russian equipment is still the mainstay of our mechanised forces and, even if we adopt a conscious policy of Indianisation, it will be decades before Russian equipment serves out its life. Since we have to live with Russian systems for a long, long time, we need to identify which tanks we could phase out first, in what time frame we could retire them, and what we can upgrade and retain in service for a longer period.

3. A crucial step, in my opinion, will have to be doubling the rate of retirement of the obsolescent T-72s. One replacement stream is the T-90, being produced at the HVF, Avadi. A second stream of Arjuns must supplement this, for which the following broad process must begin:

(a) Increase Arjun tank production on an expanded assembly line, at the rate of 30, 40, and then 50 tanks per year in 2011, 2012 and 2013 respectively. Task CVRDE to ready the Arjun Mark II by 2013. By 2015 the Arjun production line at HVF MUST roll out 62 Arjun Mark II tanks per year (i.e. one regiment at full scale, including reserve tanks). By 2018, the Arjun Mark III must roll out. Each of these upgrades must have limited and realistic improvements, identified not from glossy magazines but through operational usage by Indian Army regiments.

(b) Alongside the Arjun Improvement Programme (AIP), which will handle the upgrade to Mark II and Mark III standards, work must commence by 2012 on the Future MBT programme. Two consortiums must compete in creating the design: a CVRDE-led consortium that can draw on the Arjun experience. And a private industry-led consortium, which is granted full access to the Arjun design experience, as well as to any other resources that they choose. The private industry consortium must be fully funded by the MoD, their budget in line with what the CVRDE-led consortium is permitted to spend.

(c) As Arjun tanks roll out, T-72M regiments must convert to the Arjun, those with older tanks first. The conversion will serve a two-fold purpose: firstly, the T-72 regiments that first convert to Arjuns, i.e. 4-5 regiments by 2015, need not be upgraded with TIFCS, etc. Secondly, the introduction of Arjuns into service, and the setting up of Arjun instructional cells at the Armoured Corps Centre & School, Ahmednagar, will start spreading an Arjun culture into an army where the opposition to the Arjun is based on an outdated impression of the tank --- on what it was, rather than what it is.

(d) The remaining T-72s need to be upgraded on priority. The ten-year-old process to upgrade them needs to be pushed through, if necessary by a high-voltage, public resignation by whoever the DGMF happens to be. By doing so, that officer will have done more for his arm than any of his recent predecessors; and will be remembered for much more than just being a good chap.

(e) By 2015, the DRDO, in collaboration with private industry, must produce and operationalise an Arjun Bridge Layer Tank (BLTs), an Arjun Trawl Tank, and the specialised maintenance vehicles that will be provided to each Arjun regiment. Production lines must cater for adequate scales of these.

(f) The process needs to be set in motion now for creating two Arjun overhaul facilities in the private sector. The first fifteen Arjuns will soon be due for overhaul and the HVF has proved unable to even handle the T-72 overhaul. Just as an RFI has been floated for creating T-72 overhaul facilities, the Arjun overhaul facilities must be kicked off immediately.

Broadsword


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## karan.1970

faithfulguy said:


> Thanks for an honest analysis. For a while, I thought India can do no wrong.



Hey.. a Spade is a Spade..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

jagjitnatt said:


> I expect Arjun to be exported if Indian army doesn't order more tanks. Arjun is a good tank no doubt. Its armour is up there comparable to the best in the world. There are no issues with its mobility, turret, engine. It is a quality tank, just a little too late. Anyways, there are a lot of countries looking to replace their old tanks.
> Lets wait and see what happens.



I doubt it being export there are far better tanks in the markets and even now ia needs armour while 80% of its tanks are blind at night


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## Laughing Buddha

*(1) | TrackBack (0)
Arjun tank to fight for survival, Ajai Shukla probes the decision to buy T-90

08 Feb 2010 8ak: India's Arjun tank will battle for its life against a squadron of Russian T-90s in comparative trials next month. The test results will be crucial as it is likely to determine the controversial vehicle's future which is in jeopardy after the army has refused to buy more than the 124 Arjun tanks. The stated reason was that the army is not happy with the performance of the DRDO developed tank. 

The development of indigenous Arjun tanks commenced almost three decades ago. The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995 after the government had spent US$72 million on the project.

The 24th Infantry Division stationed in Bikaner will conduct the trials in the rugged deserts of the northern state of Rajasthan, around the cities of Bikaner, Suratgarh and also Pokhran, the site of India's first nuclear bomb test in May 1974. As many as 14 Arjun tanks will be pitted against the equal number of Russian T-90s during the trials. 

Senior army officials revealed to 8ak that the tests were being conducted to determine the role Arjun can play in the security of India and also to assess the strong and weak areas of the tank. He further added that officials of DRDO would be present during the test to find out the areas where the performance of Arjun can be enhanced. The DRDO had handed over 16 tanks to the Indian Army last year, completing one regiment of 45 tanks. The regiment was then subjected to conversion training and field practice.

The Arjun measures just under 33 feet long and 12 feet wide. Armor is a Kanchan steel-composite sandwich development. A 1,400 horsepower diesel engine gives it an operational range of 280 miles with a speed of 45 mph on roads and 25 mph cross-country. The 120mm rifled main turret gun can fire the LAHAT anti-tank missile. Secondary armaments are a MAG 7.62mm Tk715 coaxial machine gun and an HCB 12.7mm AA machine gun.

The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistans decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

The test is the last chance for DRDO to instil life into the Arjun program, which it says would be economically feasible only if the army ordered 500 tanks. If the performance of the tank is up to the set parameters there is a strong possibility that the army will be forced to order more Arjun tanks. On the other hand, a poor performance will certainly seal the fate of the Arjun program and kill DRDO's hopes of providing Indian army a indigenous set of tanks. 

And a must read article from Ajai Shukla basically saying that decision makers took out critical parts of the T-90 tank to make it appear comparable in price to the Arjun, so that the government could continue to buy Russian. The biggest battle it seems for the Arjun is not to prove its battle worthiness, rather to fight entrenched power players! Not that 8ak wants to glorify the Arjun beyond its capabilities. Informed sources tell us that Arjun faces such serious flaws that it cannot reach border areas in times of conflict. The issues they say (unconfirmed by 8ak) are that the filter needs changing every 5kms in desert/dusty conditions, the tank is too heavy for transportable bridges and too wide to be transported on India's railways. *


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## Choppers

*No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief​*
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) dispelled apprehensions that there was a question mark over the capability of the indigenously manufactured Arjun tank.

Speaking at a press conference here on Saturday, DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat dismissed reports that the tank was undergoing yet another series of revaluations vis-&#192;-vis the Russian T-90 main battle tanks.

Dr. Saraswat said that half of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army had already rolled out, and there was no rethink about their induction. The comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tank&#8217;s role in the overall arsenal of the Army. &#8220;It is a normal process of identifying the role the tank will play in the plans,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Let me make it clear, that these are not evaluation trials of the Arjun tank, as those trials, including in summer and winter months, are over and more than 50 per cent of the tanks have now rolled out of the factory for induction.&#8221;

Dr. Saraswat also refuted criticism about the performance of made-in-India INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifles. He said there were no niggles in the INSAS rifle, a standard issue to the infantry and the paramilitary forces, and felt the complaints, if any, must be local in nature. The feedback from the Army indicated that the troops were satisfied with the rifle.

He said the integration of avionics and sensors on a Brazilian plane to produce an indigenous &#8220;eye-in-the-sky&#8221; was proceeding apace. The modifications of the Embraer aircraft to fit the surveillance systems were &#8220;in fairly good shape&#8221; and the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) could be ready for tests in two years, he said.

No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief


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## shchinese

this is the exact mentality that lead to the failure of Agni-3. 

this is the exact person who claimed india's anti-missile tech is better than China's when india didn't have any *mid course anti missile* and does not have any target missile that can be used for such test.


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## booo



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## Dark Angel

shchinese said:


> this is the exact mentality that lead to the failure of Agni-3.
> 
> this is the exact person who claimed india's anti-missile tech is better than China's when india didn't have any *mid course anti missile* and does not have any target missile that can be used for such test.





hail King Tr.... did u read the heading *No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief *

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## arslan_treen

Choppers said:


> *No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief​*
> The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) dispelled apprehensions that there was a question mark over the capability of the indigenously manufactured Arjun tank.
> 
> Speaking at a press conference here on Saturday, DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat dismissed reports that the tank was undergoing yet another series of revaluations vis-À-vis the Russian T-90 main battle tanks.
> 
> Dr. Saraswat said that half of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army had already rolled out, and there was no rethink about their induction. The comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tanks role in the overall arsenal of the Army. It is a normal process of identifying the role the tank will play in the plans, he said.
> 
> Let me make it clear, that these are not evaluation trials of the Arjun tank, as those trials, including in summer and winter months, are over and more than 50 per cent of the tanks have now rolled out of the factory for induction.
> 
> Dr. Saraswat also refuted criticism about the performance of made-in-India INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifles. He said there were no niggles in the INSAS rifle, a standard issue to the infantry and the paramilitary forces, and felt the complaints, if any, must be local in nature. The feedback from the Army indicated that the troops were satisfied with the rifle.
> 
> He said the integration of avionics and sensors on a Brazilian plane to produce an indigenous eye-in-the-sky was proceeding apace. The modifications of the Embraer aircraft to fit the surveillance systems were in fairly good shape and the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) could be ready for tests in two years, he said.
> 
> No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief


i dont know about arjun as not a tank man but there shouldn't be any complains against INSAS its made on israeli design which intern is a highly modified and improved ak47 , now the main advantage of INSAS and its israeli counterpart is that they SHOULD not go wrong or must be Glitch free and they do not involve any rocket science to make that some thing will go wrong so i think on that issue i am with DRDO that any problems might be local one rather then some thing being wrong with the rifle , it should be a very potent Gun if its made the way it should be .


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## Cityboy

shchinese said:


> this is the exact mentality that lead to the failure of Agni-3.
> 
> this is the exact person who claimed india's anti-missile tech is better than China's when india didn't have any *mid course anti missile* and does not have any target missile that can be used for such test.



the best post of the thread irrespective of topic..the only thing he see is the india defense section..and copy paste some troll from notepad files to the thread...


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## jha

he gets banned on weekly basis..no need to reply him..


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## shchinese

jha said:


> he gets banned on weekly basis..no need to reply him..



last time when I got banned, it was in the middle of 2009. if a week means 150 days in your mind, then you are right.


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## Hyde

so that means after 4 decades of R&D India is going to induct 124 Arjun tanks? and then finish the project?

Are they planning to induct any other indegineous tank in the future? I mean after Arjun tanks are you going to just buy more tanks from Russia or they planning to go for another indegineous tank in the future?


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## sudhir007

*fullstory*

New Delhi, Feb 27 (PTI) The Army is likely to soon place a repeat order for 124 indigenous 'Arjun' Main Battle Tanks from DRDO as troops have expressed satisfaction over the armoured vehicle's performance in desert terrain in Rajasthan.

"*A repeat order of another 124 Arjuns is expected from the Army soon, as it is satisfied with the tanks' performance," a senior DRDO official said here today*.

The new order would be a follow-on to the 124 Arjuns ordered by the Army in 2004, of which the Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) has already supplied 45 to comprise an armoured regiment.

The regiment has now taken out the tanks to the desert in Rajasthan for conversion trials and reports from the troops reaching the Army headquarters say the combat vehicles were doing extremely well, the official said.

"*The repeat order is necessary to keep the production lines in Avadi running.*

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## shchinese

airforce is having mig crashing every week
arm is buying arjun junk
navy got black mailed by russian on the price of aircraft carrier

what a wonderful load of crap

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## champion

arjun is doing good and DRDO is just working on next gen


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## shchinese

champion said:


> arjun is doing good and DRDO is just working on next gen



hope they don't spend another 20 years on the next gen. 



btw, almost all major parts used in arjun need to be made by foreign companies. e.g. main gun, engine. 

today's arjun is still a few years away from our type-98 in 1999 (which never entered the active service).

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## sancho

I read somewhere that a engineering and a bridge layer vehicle, based on the Arjun chassis were planed too. What about these, has IA ordered them?
I only found pics of the bridge layer version:


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## fsoul

shchinese said:


> airforce is having mig crashing every week
> arm is buying arjun junk
> navy got black mailed by russian on the price of aircraft carrier
> 
> what a wonderful load of crap



You forgot to add a pakistani and chinese flag in your post. Keep Trolling. 

Great news keep it up Arjun.


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## champion

shchinese said:


> hope they don't spend another 20 years on the next gen.
> 
> 
> 
> btw, almost all major parts used in arjun need to be made by foreign companies. e.g. main gun, engine.
> 
> today's arjun is still a few years away from our type-98 in 1999 (which never entered the active service).



thanks for your troll its motivation for us

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## shchinese

sancho said:


> I read somewhere that a engineering and a bridge layer vehicle, based on the Arjun chassis were planed too. What about these, has IA ordered them?
> I only found pics of the bridge layer version:



looks like a piece of junk to me. 

our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time. 

please have a look, don't be fooled by your army. 

Ò»ÇÅ·É¼ÜÄÏ±±£º¹ãÖÝ¾üÇøÄ³ÖÛÇÅÂÃËìÐÐ¶É½­¹¤³Ì×°±¸±£ÕÏÊµ±øÑÝÁ·¼ÍÊµ| Æï¾¨µ¸º£ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net

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## marcos98

*MBT ARJUN ROLLING AHEAD.........*

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## marcos98

sancho said:


> I read somewhere that a engineering and a bridge layer vehicle, based on the Arjun chassis were planed too. What about these, has IA ordered them?
> I only found pics of the bridge layer version:



Maybe in conjunction with sarvatra......

Sarvatra bridge being launched. The bridge consists of 5 sections, each bridging a distance of 15 metres

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## Isaq Khan

shchinese said:


> looks like a piece of junk to me.
> 
> our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time.
> 
> please have a look, *don't be fooled by your army. *
> 
> &#210;&#187;&#199;&#197;&#183;&#201;&#188;&#220;&#196;&#207;&#177;&#177;&#163;&#186;&#185;&#227;&#214;&#221;&#190;&#252;&#199;&#248;&#196;&#179;&#214;&#219;&#199;&#197;&#194;&#195;&#203;&#236;&#208;&#208;&#182;&#201;&#189;*&#185;&#164;&#179;&#204;&#215;&#176;&#177;&#184;&#177;&#163;&#213;&#207;&#202;&#181;&#177;&#248;&#209;&#221;&#193;&#183;&#188;&#205;&#202;&#181;| &#198;&#239;&#190;&#168;&#181;&#184;&#186;&#163; - &#183;&#201;&#209;&#239;&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194; &#208;&#241;&#200;&#213;&#179;&#246;&#182;&#171;&#183;&#189;&#163;&#172;&#190;&#171;&#178;&#202;&#212;&#218;&#183;&#201;&#209;&#239; - powered by phpwind.net




a grand salute to the King of trolling.

1. *You are asking Indians to not to be fooled by Indian army but by u?*

2. *But u r already fooled by ur Chinese army, here is the proof:*

"*The ZTZ99 MBT shows a mixture of Russian and Western influence in its design and technology.* The hull of the tank is very similar to that of the Russian T-72, though the angular welded turret is clearly of Western style. The 125mm smoothbore main gun and the autoloader, which allows the crew of the tank to be reduced to three man, are both believed to be of *Soviet/Russian origin*. The ZTZ99 carries the Russian 9M119 Refleks (NATO codename: AT-11 Sniper) anti-tank guided missile *locally produced in China under license.* The tank&#8217;s liquid-cooled, turbo-charged diesel engine was said to be *based on the German technology."*

Source: ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com

So, now u will be regretting ur fake proud about so called indigenous Chinese tank.

If u use Russian parts and German engine then its alright but when India uses it u make fun of it. Why don't u buzz off.

And for calling Arjun a junk u will see which is a junk Arjun or copied cheap Chinese tank.


*Also tell me what type of indigenous defense production u boast about when China uses European engine in its attack helicopter, German engine in tanks and Russian engine it its aircraft?*

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## sancho

marcos98 said:


> Maybe in conjunction with sarvatra......
> 
> Sarvatra bridge being launched. The bridge consists of 5 sections, each bridging a distance of 15 metres


Guess so, but are these Arjun versions ordered, or even operational in the army? And what about the engineering version?


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## rocky2

shchinese said:


> looks like a piece of junk to me.
> 
> our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time.
> 
> please have a look, don't be fooled by your army.
> 
> you better stop posting these sort of craps..


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## mrwarrior006

> looks like a piece of junk to me.
> 
> our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time.
> 
> please have a look, don't be fooled by your army.



yes its a junk

but not a cheap copy

and its ur army who fools around


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## xuxu1457

Isaq Khan said:


> a grand salute to the King of trolling.
> 
> 1. *You are asking Indians to not to be fooled by Indian army but by u?*
> 
> 2. *But u r already fooled by ur Chinese army, here is the proof:*
> 
> "*The ZTZ99 MBT shows a mixture of Russian and Western influence in its design and technology.* The hull of the tank is very similar to that of the Russian T-72, though the angular welded turret is clearly of Western style. The 125mm smoothbore main gun and the autoloader, which allows the crew of the tank to be reduced to three man, are both believed to be of *Soviet/Russian origin*. The ZTZ99 carries the Russian 9M119 Refleks (NATO codename: AT-11 Sniper) anti-tank guided missile *locally produced in China under license.* The tank&#8217;s liquid-cooled, turbo-charged diesel engine was said to be *based on the German technology."*
> 
> Source: ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com
> 
> So, now u will be regretting ur fake proud about so called indigenous Chinese tank.
> 
> If u use Russian parts and German engine then its alright but when India uses it u make fun of it. Why don't u buzz off.
> 
> And for calling Arjun a junk u will see which is a junk Arjun or copied cheap Chinese tank.
> 
> 
> *Also tell me what type of indigenous defense production u boast about when China uses European engine in its attack helicopter, German engine in tanks and Russian engine it its aircraft?*



The ZTZ99 MBT *shows* a mixture of Russian and Western *influence* in its design and technology.[/B][/B] The hull of the tank is very *similar to *that of the Russian T-72, though the angular welded turret is clearly of Western style. The 125mm smoothbore main gun and the autoloader, which allows the crew of the tank to be reduced to three man, are both *believed to be *of Soviet/Russian origin. The ZTZ99 carries the Russian 9M119 Refleks (NATO codename: AT-11 Sniper) anti-tank guided missile locally produced in China under license. The tank&#8217;s liquid-cooled, turbo-charged diesel engine *was said to be *based on the German technology."

*HAHA,the words"shows,influence,similar to ,believed to be ,was said to be" another name is "guess"~~~,and we know that :the whole tank was designed and made by our own companies,no part is imported~~and Japanese T90 and Us'sM1A1 are all equipped the German gun but they are all made in there own country and they mastered the tech~*

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## Isaq Khan

xuxu1457 said:


> The ZTZ99 MBT *shows* a mixture of Russian and Western *influence* in its design and technology.[/B][/B] The hull of the tank is very *similar to *that of the Russian T-72, though the angular welded turret is clearly of Western style. The 125mm smoothbore main gun and the autoloader, which allows the crew of the tank to be reduced to three man, are both *believed to be *of Soviet/Russian origin. The ZTZ99 carries the Russian 9M119 Refleks (NATO codename: AT-11 Sniper) anti-tank guided missile locally produced in China under license. The tanks liquid-cooled, turbo-charged diesel engine *was said to be *based on the German technology."
> 
> *HAHA,the words"shows,influence,similar to ,believed to be ,was said to be" another name is "guess"~~~,and we know that :the whole tank was designed and made by our own companies,no part is imported~~and Japanese T90 and Us'sM1A1 are all equipped the German gun but they are all made in there own country and they mastered the tech~*



Whom u want to fool you and i know the truth.


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## baba firangi

xuxu1457 said:


> *HAHA,the words"shows,influence,similar to ,believed to be ,was said to be" another name is "guess"~~~,and we know that*


* 

Another name is COPIED FROM...




:the whole tank was designed and made by our own companies,no part is imported~~and Japanese T90 and Us'sM1A1 are all equipped the German gun but they are all made in there own country and they mastered the tech~

Click to expand...

*
In that sense, even the Arjun is designed and made by our own companies.. And once the production begins in required numbers, most of the parts being imported now will be manufactured in-house..

Typical Chinese minset.. : *"Tum karo toh CHAMATKAAR, Hum karein toh BALATKAAR.."*...


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## baba firangi

shchinese said:


> looks like a piece of junk to me.



Who gives a damn as to what it looks to you.. 



> our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time.



So when left with no arguments, you started comparing a TANK based BRIDGE LAYER with your ARMED FORCES in laying a bridge..

IQ 1 BLANK BLANK at its extreme..

BRIDGE LAYERS if you don't know are short make-shift bridges made of steel to bridge short fjords and canals.. They aint made to cross rivers a 1000 mtrs across.. The make-shift bridge is carried upon a Tank chassis and put across as and when needed.. They are strong enough to let a medium or light tank cross at a time.. And that is what they are put up for.. For rapid Deployment of mechanized divisions across enemy territory..

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## Marxist

shchinese said:


> looks like a piece of junk to me.




we r not discussing about any chinese tank here,i fear u cannot distinguish between junk and good one because u always see u r chinese tanks(fly copied) junks.


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## xuxu1457

NO need to discuss and personal attack,we will see whether the Arjun has really combat capability in future~~but till that I ...depend the records of DRDO.


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## Roby

xuxu1457 said:


> NO need to discuss and personal attack,we will see whether the Arjun has really combat capability in future~~but till that I ...depend the records of DRDO.



Fair enough


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## abdul1

It is good to have more repeat order for arjun this will help in getting the more contents getting built here any idea about Kirloskar engine, last i heard it was tested till 1300 HP in HVF chennai. As per BMS the BEl one is used now. IA is looking for 1500HP pack


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## suryanaidu

shchinese said:


> looks like a piece of junk to me.
> 
> our armed forces built a 1320 meters long bridge in 35 minutes. your arjun chassis based bridge layer vehicle can do the same? not in your life time.
> 
> please have a look, don't be fooled by your army.
> 
> Ò»ÇÅ·É¼ÜÄÏ±±£º¹ãÖÝ¾üÇøÄ³ÖÛÇÅÂÃËìÐÐ¶É½*¹¤³Ì×°±¸±£ÕÏÊµ±øÑÝÁ·¼ÍÊµ| Æï¾¨µ¸º£ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net



where are mods?


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## sab

suryanaidu said:


> where are mods?


Punishing a Chinese member for trolling??? shchinese behaves such a manner as if scolding him (by Pakistani moderators) means cancellation of JF 17 project. Hope mods will do something about his "nobody can touch me" attitude.


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## skyisthelimit

indian army knows capability of arjun tank....we dont need any chinese opinion on what it is....


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## xman

hahaha.. some guys here were calling it a faliure before. 
Ohh how can i forget, they are engineers graduated from MIT USA and reasearching on the most secrect technology.. lol


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## DMLA

Please ignore Trolls! They are a disgrace to this forum. 

Coming back to the arjun, though the army seems to have ordered 124 more, I am now looking forward to mk-II. Apart from indegenous systems, DRDO has shown interest in Rafael's APS for use on Arjun. Other option includes the iron fist/ quick kill/ etc. This (if it happens) would make arjun mk-II a very potent tank indeed.

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## Storm Force

Alot of people are going to a little foolish on this forum soon. 

Not only is LCA tejas about to GET IOC and 40 planes ordered 

But India has juast signed a $1 billion dollar for 900 Akash missles SAM cover 

And will probably end up with over 500 ARJuN TANKS BY 2020 latest .. 

Comay helicoper to fly in March 

Dhruv already in service in all 3 services

And frigates desroyers and even nuke subs being inducted by the Navy.

yet people claim india cant build its own weapons 

NONSENSE me thinks

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## faithfulguy

Storm Force said:


> Alot of people are going to a little foolish on this forum soon.
> 
> Not only is LCA tejas about to GET IOC and 40 planes ordered
> 
> But India has juast signed a $1 billion dollar for 900 Akash missles SAM cover
> 
> And will probably end up with over 500 ARJuN TANKS BY 2020 latest ..
> 
> Comay helicoper to fly in March
> 
> Dhruv already in service in all 3 services
> 
> And frigates desroyers and even nuke subs being inducted by the Navy.
> 
> yet people claim india cant build its own weapons
> 
> NONSENSE me thinks



I do believe India build its own weapon. But the main core weapons of fighters and tanks are still mainly imported. How many foreign made vs domestic produced tanks and fighters are being used in the Indian military?

However, nothing is wrong with using imported weapons. India should get the best available weapon that it can get. Be it imported or domestically produced. Now its the time for India to purchase mainly US weapons.


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## Trisonics

faithfulguy said:


> I do believe India build its own weapon. But the main core weapons of fighters and tanks are still mainly imported. How many foreign made vs domestic produced tanks and fighters are being used in the Indian military?
> 
> However, nothing is wrong with using imported weapons. India should get the best available weapon that it can get. Be it imported or domestically produced. Now its the time for India to purchase mainly US weapons.


 is it so hard to comprehend???? Is China 100% self sufficient when it comes to its military tech?
India is not China (and in some other context China is not India!) or China is not the US yet!

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## DMLA

Rafael's push includes the following systems for armoured vehicles:

Samson RCWS Family &#8211; Remote controlled weapon stations 
ASPRO-P &#8211; Passive add-on armor 
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/976.pdf 
ASPRO-H &#8211; Hybrid add-on armor 
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/977.pdf
ASPRO-A (Trophy) &#8211; Active armor
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/3/943.pdf


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## Creder

A couple of weeks back there was a thread regarding the evaluation of Arjun against T90 tanks, i was wondering what was the follow up on that


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## shchinese

Trisonics said:


> is it so hard to comprehend???? Is China 100% self sufficient when it comes to its military tech?
> India is not China (and in some other context China is not India!) or China is not the US yet!



No, and China should never seek to achieve such 100% self sufficient. 

The problem here is india is importing everything, while China is building most of its weapons. 

it is also funny that whenever this issue is raised, indians start crying "your weapons are copied from russia/us". I am wondering if we fly J-11B over the sky of new delhi and start bombing your building, what kind of reaction we would get from indians? indians start protesting that China should attack india using weapons that have a clean copyright record?


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## DMLA

Please this thread is about arjun orders..... not indian or chinese defence industry! I would urge everyone to STAY ON TOPIC!


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## DMLA

Creder said:


> A couple of weeks back there was a thread regarding the evaluation of Arjun against T90 tanks, i was wondering what was the follow up on that



It was an evaluation to fine tune the operational doctrine of arjun MBT's in IA. It is slated for sometime in march/april. The results will not have any bearing on Arjun's place in IA. IA in a written report to the difince ministry has stated that it is more than satisfied with the Arjun. It would seem that they are placing more orders soon.

However, Arjun will see some changes (hopefully) and the mk-II may well see larger orders (if and when it rolls out). The truth is that IA's next generation tank is atleast 10-15 years away and this provides a great opportunity for a bigger Arjun order and replacing many of the older T-72's with the same.

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## Choppers

Creder said:


> A couple of weeks back there was a thread regarding the evaluation of Arjun against T90 tanks, i was wondering what was the follow up on that



*Different battle arenas for twin tanks
Arjun and Bhishma to coexist​*


> Unlike the epic Mahabharata, the Indian Armys lead tanks named after legendary warriors Arjun and Bhishma will coexist and will be deployed in different battle arenas in the future. At present, a deployment trials are being conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, where 14 of the home-grown Arjun tanks face the Russian origin T-90 - christened Bhishma - by the Indian Army.
> 
> The Indian Army is likely to order more Arjun tanks rather than depend entirely on the Russian tanks, sources said. The chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, Dr VK Saraswat, says: We are expecting a repeat order of the Arjun tanks in the near future.
> 
> Separately, sources said two more regiments - some 124 tanks - of the Arjun series are likely to be inducted. An announcement is likely after the deployment trials are over. Saraswat clarified the comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tanks role. It is a process to identify the role the tank will play and will not be comparative between the two tanks, he added.
> 
> The Indian Army had ordered two regiments of the Arjun but had then showed reluctance to accept more. The trials will show the true picture. Commanders of the Indian Army, who in the past have been critical of the Arjun, have slowly come around and now say that the two tanks are of different classes and cannot be compared with each other.
> 
> The Arjun at 58.5-tonne is much heavier than the 46.5 tonne T-90. But with more powerful engines the Arjun moves faster than the T-90. It is ideal for deployment in the arid Rajasthan-Gujarat sector facing Pakistan.
> 
> The Arjun has better and latest systems on board. It has better transmission system than the T-90, accurate firepower while on the move. The Arjun has better thermal imaging capability, enabling it night vision.
> 
> The night vision capability of T-90 is of lower category. It malfunctions in the heat of Rajasthan, says an in-house input of the Indian Army. The Army plans to have 1,650 T-90s in the next few years. The production has been localised and the first tanks built in India rolled out a few months ago.


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## LCA Tejas

shchinese said:


> No, and China should never seek to achieve such 100% self sufficient.
> 
> The problem here is india is importing everything, while China is building most of its weapons.
> 
> it is also funny that whenever this issue is raised, indians start crying "your weapons are copied from russia/us". I am wondering if we fly J-11B over the sky of new delhi and start bombing your building, what kind of reaction we would get from indians? indians start protesting that China should attack india using weapons that have a clean copyright record?



Nop.... our aircrafts will welcome Your J-11 B in beijing....


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## shchinese

LCA Tejas said:


> Nop.... our aircrafts will welcome Your J-11 B in beijing....



 hope your aricraft won't crash on its way. 

how many indian mig crashes we had in the past 5 years?


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## faithfulguy

LCA Tejas said:


> Nop.... our aircrafts will welcome Your J-11 B in beijing....



It is not necessary to respond to a provocation. It will just totally derail this thread. He is taking you for a ride. Its up to you to go on the ride with him.

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## LCA Tejas

shchinese said:


> hope your aricraft won't crash on its way.
> 
> how many indian mig crashes we had in the past 5 years?



Oh god.... well we will repeat it in bejing.... anyways we will not be welcoming you with MIG, we have MKI's buddy....


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## Tejas-MkII

Creder said:


> A couple of weeks back there was a thread regarding the evaluation of Arjun against T90 tanks, i was wondering what was the follow up on that



The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News



> At present, a deployment trials are being conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, where 14 of the home-grown Arjun tanks face the Russian origin T-90 - christened Bhishma - by the Indian Army.



Now the trail changed from comparative trail to deployment trail.. which clearly indiacte the induction of Arjun into IA is much moother than before..



> An announcement is likely after the deployment trials are over. *Saraswat clarified the comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tanks role*. It is a process to identify the role the tank will play and will not be comparative between the two tanks, he added.





> Commanders of the Indian Army, who in the past have been critical of the Arjun, have slowly come around and now say that the two tanks are of different classes and cannot be compared with each other.

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## Choppers

*Arjun vs T 90: Tank trials to kick off next month​*
After immense pressure from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) the Army has decided to go ahead with comparative trials between the Arjun tank and the T 90 Main Battle Tank (MBT) next month. While it will be interesting to see how the indigenous tank holds up to the Russian origin mainstay of the Indian Army, the unfairness of comparing two totally different tanks has rankled experts both within and outside the military establishment.

On the face of it, both DRDO and the Army say that the comparative trials are not actually a competition between the tanks but are aimed at defining and finding a role for the Arjun in Indias armoured fleet. However, the Army is feeling the heat from DRDO which is aggressively marketing the trials as a testing point that could pave the way for more orders for the Arjun from the present cap of 124 units

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::.


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## shchinese

no difference from my point of view, you have to import almost all major parts for arjun.


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## Cityboy

thanx for entertainment shcinese. keep refrashing us from ur great jokes.u rox


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## black flame

shchinese said:


> no difference from my point of view, you have to import almost all major parts for arjun.



it doesn't matter what No matter how much u troll Arjun is a good tank all it matters is how good is the tank in the battle field and how fast and accurately it can destroy the enemy target ........... ooh ur worried that u will loose a name with which u can troll so u did the same with LCA and now its arjun is also proved itself and ya keep trolling
more over even USA so do uk and Russia imports parts and components from israles and europe it dose not matter, it is developed in india and not reversed engineered that gives satisfaction to all the indians...............


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## LCA Tejas

shchinese said:


> no difference from my point of view, you have to import almost all major parts for arjun.



Pathetic reply from a frustrated fellow .

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## sab

shchinese said:


> no difference from my point of view, you have to import almost all major parts for arjun.


Still you are using Russian engines for J10 and JF 17, and such a aircraft you have given to Pakistan (JF 17) that they are eager to change Chinese avionics and Radars with Europian ones. Come back to troll when you becomes self-reliant.


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## chinapakistan

sab said:


> Still you are using Russian engines for J10 and JF 17, and such a aircraft you have given to Pakistan (JF 17) that they are eager to change Chinese avionics and Radars with Europian ones. Come back to troll when you becomes self-reliant.



Our WS-10 has already come out. And maybe we are using some foriegn part but there is no comparision between china and a nation only importing almost all major parts for his weapon(most of are imported with whole). And I aslo think there is no comparision between china's militory industry and a nation even cant provide stable electrisic power.


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## deep.ocean

deleted...


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## Hulk

chinapakistan said:


> Our WS-10 has already come out. And maybe we are using some foriegn part but there is no comparision between china and a nation only importing almost all major parts for his weapon(most of are imported with whole). And I aslo think there is no comparision between china's militory industry and a nation even cant provide stable electrisic power.



I hope that was the case, you guys get satisfaction in comparing yourself to only India, as you know in R&D you cannot stand anywhere if you start comparing to developed world countries. I sure do not have a problem when China feels satisfied comparing to India.


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## chinapakistan

indianrabbit said:


> I hope that was the case, you guys get satisfaction in comparing yourself to only India, as you know in R&D you cannot stand anywhere if you start comparing to developed world countries. I sure do not have a problem when China feels satisfied comparing to India.



You are wrong. All this comparision are made by indian media and your idiot polician just to make the others focus on you. Acturely, chinese dont make comparision with indian, we do compare us with japan and US.
And we also know we have a long way to go to catch up them. China is different from indian, we dont like talking big, we like doing what should we do silently. But your media and your polician brag a lot, it is make us uncomfortable, not bcoz you are bragigng, your bragging is nothing to do with china, but you related everything to china.


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## sab

chinapakistan said:


> Our WS-10 has already come out. And maybe we are using some foriegn part but there is no comparision between china and a nation only importing almost all major parts for his weapon(most of are imported with whole). And I aslo think there is no comparision between china's militory industry and a nation even cant provide stable electrisic power.


Take your blah blah blah to Zimbabwe, Sudan or Azarbaizan as they are not complaining about your product. Even Pakistan now is considering modifying your product with Europian help. That should be a slap hard enough to your face.


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## chinapakistan

sab said:


> Take your blah blah blah to Zimbabwe, Sudan or Azarbaizan as they are not complaining about your product. Even Pakistan now is considering modifying your product with Europian help. That should be a slap hard enough to your face.



You can say everying, but the fact is you cant produce any weapon by your own, but we can produce everything we want. And How doese this related to Zimbabwe?? Are you despising Zimbabwe a country have less pervoty rate than indian?


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## jbond197

chinapakistan said:


> You can say everying, but the fact is you cant produce any weapon by your own, but we can produce everything we want. And How doese this related to Zimbabwe?? Are you despising Zimbabwe a country have less pervoty rate than indian?



well all the facts and figures are known only to Chineese via your commi sources isn't it?  Anyways, if not in your country atleast you are free to think what ever you want here.. after all it's a free world!! So Boy enjoy !!


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## jbond197

chinapakistan said:


> You can say everying, but the fact is you cant produce any weapon by your own, but we can produce everything we want. And How doese this related to Zimbabwe?? Are you despising Zimbabwe a country have less pervoty rate than indian?



Wondering if WS-10 is related to Arjun Tank or is the discussion about indeginious development. Also there is no mention of China in this thread. I don't know what attracts all these Chineese Trolls!!


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## chinapakistan

jbond197 said:


> well all the facts and figures are known only to Chineese via your commi sources isn't it?  Anyways, if not in your country atleast you are free to think what ever you want here.. after all it's a free world!! So Boy enjoy !!



Again, can you change another way to troll when you are faild in a debate? I can search everything on internet, and what I said is wel world known. Can you even deny that your country cant provide stable electrisic power? And you should thank to chinese company bcoz of them you can use internet. Face fact, dont only watch indian big mouth media..


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## chinapakistan

jbond197 said:


> Wondering if WS-10 is related to Arjun Tank or is the discussion about indeginious development. Also there is no mention of China in this thread. I don't know what attracts all these Chinki Trolls!!



Before you come out to open your dirty mouth to sh@t, you should read all the post. It seems you posted only for trolling. I just replied that to the guy below. And you are using a racist remark of calling chinese "Chinki Trolls". And your post has been reported.



sab said:


> Still you are using Russian engines for J10 and JF 17, and such a aircraft you have given to Pakistan (JF 17) that they are eager to change Chinese avionics and Radars with Europian ones. Come back to troll when you becomes self-reliant.


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## Relucent

chinapakistan said:


> Again, can you change another way to troll when you are faild in a debate? I can search everything on internet, and what I said is wel world known. Can you even deny that your country cant provide stable electrisic power? And you should thank to chinese company bcoz of them you can use internet. Face fact, dont only watch indian big mouth media..



Ya right your country is better than ours .Accepted..... .But why derail this thread by mentioning your superiority again and again?.Dont u have anything better to do? I request u to stop supportin trolls.


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## Isaq Khan

chinapakistan said:


> Again, can you change another way to troll when you are faild in a debate? I can search everything on internet, and what I said is wel world known. Can you even deny that your country cant provide stable electrisic power? And you should thank to chinese company bcoz of them you can use internet. Face fact, dont only watch indian big mouth media..



*Off topic troll*


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## chinapakistan

Relucent said:


> Ya right your country is better than ours .Accepted..... .But why derail this thread by mentioning your superiority again and again?.Dont u have anything better to do? I request u to stop supportin trolls.



I just reply my point to some indian members to stop them bragging.
In fact, indian bragging is nothing to do with me, but they related everything to china just made me unconfortable.


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## chinapakistan

Isaq Khan said:


> *Off topic troll*



I think you are blind.
Do you think trolling by indian member is not trolling, reasonble replying of chinese member is trolling?

You should see a eye doctor.


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## Hulk

chinapakistan said:


> You are wrong. All this comparision are made by indian media and your idiot polician just to make the others focus on you. Acturely, chinese dont make comparision with indian, we do compare us with japan and US.
> And we also know we have a long way to go to catch up them. China is different from indian, we dont like talking big, we like doing what should we do silently. But your media and your polician brag a lot, it is make us uncomfortable, not bcoz you are bragigng, your bragging is nothing to do with china, but you related everything to china.



I am talking about what Chinese do in this forum, is it not true that they compare them to only Indians and boast about their progress.
The only contribution of China so far is cheap labor, factories and machines setup by west which produces products designed by west.
Lets list down your position in various fields with respect to world. Stop being happy looking at India.
1) Electronics are you ahead of Japan, USA ?
2) Shipping how about USA, Germany, France ?
3) Car I have never seen a Chinese car so far again Japan, USA, Germany.

The list goes on and on and on.

So dude chill you might be ahead of India and that is what you can do, you compare at that level only.

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## Hulk

chinapakistan said:


> I just reply my point to some indian members to stop them bragging.
> In fact, indian bragging is nothing to do with me, but they related everything to china just made me unconfortable.



The only significant country they can feel superior to is India and hence comparison to India and only India. This is their level, if they are so advance start a thread to compare R&D with USA and they will **** in their pants.


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## Relucent

ChinaPakistan Ji.There are trolls on both sides.I prefer not to add fuel to the flame.So shpuld u. "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience " .
Abt this thread It was Shchinese who started flaming.See for yourself.


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## jbond197

chinapakistan said:


> Before you come out to open your dirty mouth to sh@t, you should read all the post. It seems you posted only for trolling. I just replied that to the guy below. And you are using a racist remark of calling chinese "Chinki Trolls". And your post has been reported.



Listen dude, I don't want to get into the debate who is shooting ***** through out this forum it's for all to see. Also We don't need any Chineese expert advise on what we are making or what we are importing. anyways this is Off Topic so I will rather stick to the topic.


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## jbond197

chinapakistan said:


> Again, can you change another way to troll when you are faild in a debate? I can search everything on internet, and what I said is wel world known. Can you even deny that your country cant provide stable electrisic power? And you should thank to chinese company bcoz of them you can use internet. Face fact, dont only watch indian big mouth media..



I was debating with you something, I didn't knew that.. I think I should have completly ignored you as you are ur contrymen shchineese are expert in troll technology..


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## DMLA

Amazing!!! 

Anyhow, These are deployment trials being conducted to decide the role of the Arjun in any future war. We should however look out for the next avatar of Arjun which has the potential to be ordered in larger numbers.

things to look out for:

New NERA under development
1500 hp engine
Active defence suite (Possibly Trophy), "desi" LWR, IR jammer, etc
New UGV to help with targetting
RC turrets


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## conworldus

Isn't the Arjun v. T-90 trial going on right now? The India media is always loud how come it is silent on this?


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## DMLA

It is not a comparative trial. It is a deployment trial and is still a few weeks away. 

A thread already exists. I would urge the mods to take necessary action!

thanks!


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## Righteous_Fire

> *T-90:The army's armor of deception​*​
> February 04, 2010 03:31 IST​
> 
> 
> On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defense (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when--almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia--the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory near Chennai.
> 
> No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defense reveal the T-90's ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.
> 
> The story of the T-90 has been colored by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an under performing, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The deception stemmed from the army's determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued--
> 
> 
> 
> 
> allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production--that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia's army had spurned the T-90.
> 
> To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia's arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India's T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan's anti-tank defense are based heavily on missiles.
> 
> Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.
> 
> The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India's pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army's recently acquired T-80 UD tank,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.
> 
> Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident--and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan--that the T-90s were not battle worthy. The T-90's thermal imaging sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn't work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.
> 
> Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90's fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.
> 
> With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world's current tanks, other than France's LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India's Arjun tank, too, has "hardened" electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India's eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.
> 
> The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.
> 
> Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s' drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.
> 
> "It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank," says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. "Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further." If the Arjun performs strongly in next month's comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.​



====================

References:

Business Standard :: Business News,Finance News, World Business, India Stock News, Indian stock market, India investments, Indian Industry, Sensex, Nifty, BSE, NSE, India Business, India Economy, India, share market, Corporate Result, Finance News fr

Piercing the army's armour of deception: Rediff.com India News

====================

Personal Note: it seems the corrupt politicians and bureaucracy that we so much fuss about here is much more ripe and strong in India. However, compared to Pakistan, India loses much more when public money is wasted like this.​


----------



## sudhir007

> *Main Battle Tank - Arjun *
> in order to put India on the world map along with other countries capable of mastering the technology of designing and developing their own MBTs, in March 1974, the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT). DRDO was nominated to execute the mission. The Chronology of Development is as under :- Development of first prototype - November 1983 Development and production of next - November 1983 to 1992 Series prototypes (12 Numbers) Development and production of Pre- - 1992 to 1995 Production Series (PPS tanks) (12 numbers) Production of another three PPS tanks - 1995-1996 Rolling out of five Limited Series Production - 07 August 2004 (LSP) tanks Five LSP tanks handed over to 43 Armoured - February 2005&#8221; Regiment 3.37 The Committee desired to know the reason behind the cost escalation as the original cost of MBT project was Rs. 15.50 crore in 1974 which escalated to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Ministry submitted the following reason :- &#8220;The original scope & requirement of 15 pre-Prod tanks was enhanced. 15 Pre-production Series (PPS) tanks involving production cost of 110 cr is included in the development cost .Accuracy of fire has been enhanced&#8221;. 3.38 The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied as under :- &#8220;MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank. A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised. Some of the salient features of the three tanks are given below :
> *MBT Arjun : *
> Four men operated crew.
> 120 mm gun.
> 60 tons weight.
> Powered by1400-1500 hp engine.
> 
> *T-90 and T-72 Tanks: *
> Three men operated crew
> 125 mm gun
> 50 tons weight
> Powered by 780-1000 hp engine
> MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-&#224;-vis contemporary MBTs.&#8221; 3.39 During oral evidence, on the quality of Arjun Tank, the non-official expert informed the Committee :- &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I am afraid our quality control is very poor I have heard that fives tanks were presented before the media, however, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made. The biggest problem in India in respect of defence production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it ?&#8221; 3.40 During oral evidence, on the production of MBT Arjun, the representative of the Ministry informed the Committee :-
> &#8220;After we took over the production from the DRDO first year we decided to deliver five tanks. These tanks were delivered last year. This year we are delivering 15 tanks more. Now 14 tanks which we had promised are ready. But while the tanks were handed over to the Army, they went for an extensive user trial. Now in the user trial some minor defects were noticed and these defects are being rectified one-by-one. Now the corrective actions which are required are expected to be completed by January this year. After this corrective action, further trials will take place. Now these are very small defects&#8221;.
> Regarding the snag, he further stated :- &#8220;Sir, we have driven them and for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem. What happens is that in the gun control system, there are power amplifiers which are used in the fire control system. Some temperature settings were not properly done by the parent company. These were tucked inside. As you know, now-a-days, the deck is packaged so densely even to get access to that you have to take out the whole module. So, when this type of settings get disturbed, the rule says that one has to go through the whole qualification process again. There is no change in the design. It is a temperature re-setting which was got done. That has been rectified. Now the tanks would be there by the middle of January&#8221;.
> During oral evidence, on the problems faced by MBT Arjun during trials, the representative of the Ministry apprised the Committee :- &#8220;In the Arjun, we got into a little bit of a problem because certain temperature-setting switches were not tuned properly. They had to be returned. Yes, this was a problem of the Defence Research Scientists who have not seen that 60 degree setting was not kept at 60, but at 55 which is a normal standard of that company which supplied those parts follow. But we had in the prototype modified that for the 60. so, this had to be done. Once this got done, now we are ready. So some of these productions hiccup if they do take place in the initial phase, they should not dispirit us because whenever we do new products like that, we may face these kinds of problems&#8221;.
> On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied as under :-
> &#8220;Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility, HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.&#8221;
> On NBC and missile protection system, the Ministry supplied following information: &#8220;Tank T-90 and ARJUN have NBC protection system. In the case of T-72 tanks the NBC protection system exists in the recent models of the tanks. The older tanks, which had relatively less protection are now being upgraded. There is no missile protection system available on the Indian Army tanks. At present the tanks will be able to avoid/bear conventional attacks due to mobility and armour protection. Active protection system is being procured for T-90 tanks.&#8221;
> 
> The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than 34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjun&#8217;s requirement in a time bound manner.



for full information read :
http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/16threport.pdf

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## black flame

shchinese said:


> No, and China should never seek to achieve such 100&#37; self sufficient.
> 
> The problem here is india is importing everything, while China is building most of its weapons.
> 
> it is also funny that whenever this issue is raised, indians start crying "your weapons are copied from russia/us". I am wondering if we fly J-11B over the sky of new delhi and start bombing your building, what kind of reaction we would get from indians? indians start protesting that China should attack india using weapons that have a clean copyright record?



same thing goes for u if our SU30MKI's Or LCA or fly over bejing and bomb it or arjun tanks destroy ur front line tanks and akash missile shoot down ur missiles and aircraft will u react saying that it is imported or say that LCA is not 100% indian made where most of the parts which flies the aircraft are imported or arjun is a junk and engine is german....????? WHAT SAY U.......


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## sab

shchinese said:


> hope your aricraft won't crash on its way.
> 
> how many indian mig crashes we had in the past 5 years?


wipe your A$$ first. 

Has anyone heard of any PLAAF Air-craft crash? I think PLAAF maintains a tight lip strategy about it. I got following statistics in a forum about PLAAF plane crashes up to 2004. I am giving the forum link as well as the link of the Chinese news site where the source article was published ( you need to use a translator to read the original one). Seems they are also not far behind of India or Pakistan.

Forum link [Accident Report] PLAAF JH-7 accidents in China - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

original source &#214;&#208;&#185;&#250;&#213;&#189;&#182;&#183;&#187;&#250;&#202;&#167;&#202;&#194;&#188;&#199;&#194;&#188;--&#214;&#208;&#187;&#170;&#205;&#248;--&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194;&#198;&#181;&#181;&#192;





In the Chinese (China) news site china.com, an article dated 2005.05.25 at
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs/.../12342296.html
has a list of PLA/PLAAF/PLAN accidents and crashes, in 1980 to 2004, in China.

Disclaimer: I don't know how real/unreal these are, or whether these are more science phantasy by China bashers, but I translate them for future comparison/verification anyway.

9 November 2004:
In Yun Nan Province, near Meng Zi, two J-7B collided.
44 Division, PLAAF.
Lead pilot martyred. Wingman pilot ejected.
[This was reported by major news agencies, and very probably real.]

30 June 2004:
About 80 km from Wu Han City, a J-7B flew into a thunder storm, had problem, and crashed, while returning to base.
On the ground, one civilian killed, one civilian wounded. Two houses burnt.
Pilot ejected.
[This was reported by major news agencies, and very probably real.]

2004:
In Liao Ning Province, a JJ-5 crashed.
[The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]

2004:
Near Yan Ji, a J-7E crashed.
[The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]

2004:
Near Chang Sha, A Su-30MKK crashed.
[The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]

2004:
Near Zun Hua, a J-8 crashed.

2004:
Near He Fei, a Su-30MK2 crashed.
Pilot(s) ejected.

18 October 2002:
A Z-9 violated disciplines, flew beyond the training area at very low altitude, flew into power lines, and crashed.
Four crew martyred.

12 July 2002:
A JJ-6 had engine problem and crashed.
Pilot(s) ejected.

27 May 2002:
A Su-30MKK crashed.
Two crew ejected.

March 2002:
At high altitude and high speed, a J-8B pilot had G-LOC. The aircraft oversped and disintegrated.
Pilot martyred.

27 September 2001:
At 10:45, in Cheng Du military district, Fu Shun County, Wan Shou Town, near Guang Rong Village, a CJ-6, number 61723, crashed into a mountain.
Cheng Du military district air force, PLAAF.
Pilot martyred, body located at 22:30.

August 2001:
A Su-30MKK had landing gear problem. To attempt to save the aircraft, pilots didn't eject. Crashed and exploded while landing.
3rd Division, PLAAF.
Two crew martyred.

July 2001:
In Inner Mongolia, desert region, a J-7B crashed.
7th Division, PLAAF.

2 June 2001:
A JJ-7 had bird strike and crashed.
Pilot(s) martyred.

12 April 2001:
A J-7M had bird strike and crashed, while taking off.
3rd Test Flight Wing, PLAAF, based at Cheng Du.
Pilot martyred.

11 April 2001:
A Q-5 stalled and crashed.
28th Division, PLAAF.

1 April 2001:
A J-8B, number 81097, and an USN EP-3E collided, and the J-8B crashed.
9th Division, PLAN, based at Ling Shui AB, Hai Nan Province.
Major WANG Wei martyred.
[This was reported by major news agencies, and very real.]

1 April 2001:
A J-7B, number 30901, had bird strike and crashed, while taking off.
19th Division, PLAAF, based at Nan Yang AB, He Nan Province.
Pilot, a wing deputy commander, martyred.

31 March 2001:
A J-7E crashed, because engine turbine blade flew out.

2 February 2001:
A Su-27 had lubricant ventilator cracked, lubricant steam leaked, and caught fire. Aircraft crashed while landing.
19th Division, PLAAF, based at Ji Nan AB, Shan Dong Province.
Pilot martyred.

4 January 2001:
In He Nan Province, at Zheng Zhou AB, two Y-8, number 31242 and 31243, crashed while landing, because of icing on tail wings.
13th Division, PLAAF.
12 crew martyred.
One aircraft crashed into civilian house(s), killed six more and wounded two more.

19 September 2000:
A Y-7, number 3418, crashed while landing.
All crew martyred.

August 2000:
In Chong Qing, a Su-27UBK had fuel pipe cracked and exploded in mid-air.
33rd Division, PLAAF.
Pilot WU Xin and instructor pilot LIN Ling martyred.

28 March 2000:
In Jiang Xi Province, a J-7E had mechanical problem, lost control, and crashed.
14th Division, PLAAF, based at Zhang Shu AB, Jiang Xi Province.
Pilot martyred.

November 1999:
In Cheng Du military district, during an exercise, three J-7E launched missiles and shot down each other.
Pilots martyred.
[IMO, this is too strange to be true.]

1 April 1999:
A JJ-6 had mechanical problem and crashed.
Pilot ejected.

30 March 1999:
A Q-5C had secondary wings connections left-right reversed. During take-off, it slanted off the runway to the left and inverted.
Pilot martyred.
[I think "secondary wings" means "ailerons"?]

19 February 1999:
A H-6, while landing, hopped and crashed.
All crew martyred. A H-6 usually has six crew.

18 November 1998:
A J-7 had engine compressor cracked and crashed.
Pilot ejected.

22 October 1998:
A JJ-7, while practising take-off and landing, couldn't lower its left landing gear.
Pilot(s) ejected.

October 1998:
A J-7L trainer crashed into a mountain.
Pilot martyred.

15 September 1998:
In Tian Jin, near Yang Cun, a Ba Yi J-7EB, number 10, was looping at low altitude, stalled, and crashed.
The Ba Yi is the PLAAF air demo team.
Pilot YANG Sheng Li martyred.

25 August 1998:
A JJ-6 was test-running on the ground, engine caught fire, and burnt out.

21 July 1998:
A J-6 had engine problem and crashed while taking off.
Pilot martyred.

May 1998:
A Su-27SK, number 13, disintegrated in mid-air, because of careless ground checks and pilot's manoeuvring.
Based at Wu Hu AB, An Hui Province.
Pilot CHEN Li Ming martyred.

27 April 1998:
Two J-7D collided and crashed, during night training mission.
29th Division, PLAAF, based at Qu Zhou AB, Zhe Jiang Province.
Lead (number 25106) pilot ejected. Wingman (25007) pilot martyred.

27 February 1998:
A Z-11 flew onto the ground because of pilot error, during low altitude test flight.
Crew not wounded.

17 February 1998:
A JJ-6 took off, engine caught fire, and crashed.
Two crew martyred.

12 November 1997:
At Sui Xi AB, two SU-27SK took off, collided, and crashed.

6 November 1997:
A Su-27 engine flamed out and crashed.

10 October 1997:
A JJ-6 flew into power lines and crashed.
Two crew martyred.

23 August 1997:
A JJ-7 had bird strike, while taking off for night traning sortie.
Pilot(s) ejected.

August 1997:
In Chong Qing, a 33rd Division, PLAAF, J-8B and a Y-6 collided while landing.
J-8B pilot ejected.
Y-6 four crew martyred. Y-6 was carrying 20 air-launched bombs.

14 July 1997:
Two J-7 crashed while landing in poor weather.
Two pilots martyed.

May 1997:
A Su-27SMK [sic] crashed into a mountain, because novice pilot unfamiliar with night training.
Based at Sui Xi AB.
Pilot LIN Zhi martyred.

January 1997:
In Gui Lin control area, a J-7 crashed.
2nd Division, PLAAF.

November 1996:
Two J-8B, number 81295 and 81186, crashed.
PLAN, based at Ling Shui AB, Hai Nan Province.
Pilots WANG Fang and LI Ming martyred.

27 November 1996:
In Si Chuan Province, two Su-27UBK collided while flying close formation, after lead aircraft engine flamed out.

13 October 1996:
A J-6 had both engines sputtered and crashed.
Pilot martyred.

11 June 1996:
A J-6 flew into a spiral and crashed.
Pilot martyred.

April 1996:
In Hu Bei Province, at Yi Chang AB, a Su-27SK crashed while landing.

24 June 1994:
A flight of two JJ-6 flew into a thunder storm, attempted and failed emergency landings.

10 June 1994:
A H-5 had compass malfunction, got lost, bingo fuel, and failed emergency landing.
Crew martyred.

23 April 1992:
A J-6 crashed, because of pilot error.
Pilot ejected.

22 July 1988:
A J-6 crashed.
Pilot martyred.

21 July 1987:
A J-6 had engine flame-out and crashed.
Pilot martyred.

16 September 1984:
A J-6 crashed, because of pilot error.
Pilot martyred.

29 March 1980:
A J-6 crashed into a mountain while landing.
Pilot martyred. 

These incidents are only those which permeates through the censor of PLAAF.
(Cross posting from another thread)

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## rajgoynar

shchinese said:


> No, and China should never seek to achieve such 100% self sufficient.
> 
> The problem here is india is importing everything, while China is building most of its weapons.
> 
> it is also funny that whenever this issue is raised, indians start crying "your weapons are copied from russia/us". I am wondering if we fly J-11B over the sky of new delhi and start bombing your building, what kind of reaction we would get from indians? indians start protesting that China should attack india using weapons that have a clean copyright record?


problem in india , you are right because here everything is open like media, not like as china
whenever this issue is raised we are start crying, i think you are right because we have the 'freedom of expression' in india. not like as chinese which open mouth for eaten the food only.
and you are telling about bombing on new dehli, 
best of luck for you and your airforce.


----------



## rajgoynar

sab said:


> wipe your A$$ first.
> 
> Has anyone heard of any PLAAF Air-craft crash? I think PLAAF maintains a tight lip strategy about it. I got following statistics in a forum about PLAAF plane crashes up to 2004. I am giving the forum link as well as the link of the Chinese news site where the source article was published ( you need to use a translator to read the original one). Seems they are also not far behind of India or Pakistan.
> 
> Forum link [Accident Report] PLAAF JH-7 accidents in China - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
> 
> original source ÖÐ¹úÕ½¶·»úÊ§ÊÂ¼ÇÂ¼--ÖÐ»ªÍø--¾üÊÂÆµµÀ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Chinese (China) news site china.com, an article dated 2005.05.25 at
> http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs/.../12342296.html
> has a list of PLA/PLAAF/PLAN accidents and crashes, in 1980 to 2004, in China.
> 
> Disclaimer: I don't know how real/unreal these are, or whether these are more science phantasy by China bashers, but I translate them for future comparison/verification anyway.
> 
> 9 November 2004:
> In Yun Nan Province, near Meng Zi, two J-7B collided.
> 44 Division, PLAAF.
> Lead pilot martyred. Wingman pilot ejected.
> [This was reported by major news agencies, and very probably real.]
> 
> 30 June 2004:
> About 80 km from Wu Han City, a J-7B flew into a thunder storm, had problem, and crashed, while returning to base.
> On the ground, one civilian killed, one civilian wounded. Two houses burnt.
> Pilot ejected.
> [This was reported by major news agencies, and very probably real.]
> 
> 2004:
> In Liao Ning Province, a JJ-5 crashed.
> [The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]
> 
> 2004:
> Near Yan Ji, a J-7E crashed.
> [The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]
> 
> 2004:
> Near Chang Sha, A Su-30MKK crashed.
> [The article writer noted this as "unconfirmed".]
> 
> 2004:
> Near Zun Hua, a J-8 crashed.
> 
> 2004:
> Near He Fei, a Su-30MK2 crashed.
> Pilot(s) ejected.
> 
> 18 October 2002:
> A Z-9 violated disciplines, flew beyond the training area at very low altitude, flew into power lines, and crashed.
> Four crew martyred.
> 
> 12 July 2002:
> A JJ-6 had engine problem and crashed.
> Pilot(s) ejected.
> 
> 27 May 2002:
> A Su-30MKK crashed.
> Two crew ejected.
> 
> March 2002:
> At high altitude and high speed, a J-8B pilot had G-LOC. The aircraft oversped and disintegrated.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 27 September 2001:
> At 10:45, in Cheng Du military district, Fu Shun County, Wan Shou Town, near Guang Rong Village, a CJ-6, number 61723, crashed into a mountain.
> Cheng Du military district air force, PLAAF.
> Pilot martyred, body located at 22:30.
> 
> August 2001:
> A Su-30MKK had landing gear problem. To attempt to save the aircraft, pilots didn't eject. Crashed and exploded while landing.
> 3rd Division, PLAAF.
> Two crew martyred.
> 
> July 2001:
> In Inner Mongolia, desert region, a J-7B crashed.
> 7th Division, PLAAF.
> 
> 2 June 2001:
> A JJ-7 had bird strike and crashed.
> Pilot(s) martyred.
> 
> 12 April 2001:
> A J-7M had bird strike and crashed, while taking off.
> 3rd Test Flight Wing, PLAAF, based at Cheng Du.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 11 April 2001:
> A Q-5 stalled and crashed.
> 28th Division, PLAAF.
> 
> 1 April 2001:
> A J-8B, number 81097, and an USN EP-3E collided, and the J-8B crashed.
> 9th Division, PLAN, based at Ling Shui AB, Hai Nan Province.
> Major WANG Wei martyred.
> [This was reported by major news agencies, and very real.]
> 
> 1 April 2001:
> A J-7B, number 30901, had bird strike and crashed, while taking off.
> 19th Division, PLAAF, based at Nan Yang AB, He Nan Province.
> Pilot, a wing deputy commander, martyred.
> 
> 31 March 2001:
> A J-7E crashed, because engine turbine blade flew out.
> 
> 2 February 2001:
> A Su-27 had lubricant ventilator cracked, lubricant steam leaked, and caught fire. Aircraft crashed while landing.
> 19th Division, PLAAF, based at Ji Nan AB, Shan Dong Province.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 4 January 2001:
> In He Nan Province, at Zheng Zhou AB, two Y-8, number 31242 and 31243, crashed while landing, because of icing on tail wings.
> 13th Division, PLAAF.
> 12 crew martyred.
> One aircraft crashed into civilian house(s), killed six more and wounded two more.
> 
> 19 September 2000:
> A Y-7, number 3418, crashed while landing.
> All crew martyred.
> 
> August 2000:
> In Chong Qing, a Su-27UBK had fuel pipe cracked and exploded in mid-air.
> 33rd Division, PLAAF.
> Pilot WU Xin and instructor pilot LIN Ling martyred.
> 
> 28 March 2000:
> In Jiang Xi Province, a J-7E had mechanical problem, lost control, and crashed.
> 14th Division, PLAAF, based at Zhang Shu AB, Jiang Xi Province.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> November 1999:
> In Cheng Du military district, during an exercise, three J-7E launched missiles and shot down each other.
> Pilots martyred.
> [IMO, this is too strange to be true.]
> 
> 1 April 1999:
> A JJ-6 had mechanical problem and crashed.
> Pilot ejected.
> 
> 30 March 1999:
> A Q-5C had secondary wings connections left-right reversed. During take-off, it slanted off the runway to the left and inverted.
> Pilot martyred.
> [I think "secondary wings" means "ailerons"?]
> 
> 19 February 1999:
> A H-6, while landing, hopped and crashed.
> All crew martyred. A H-6 usually has six crew.
> 
> 18 November 1998:
> A J-7 had engine compressor cracked and crashed.
> Pilot ejected.
> 
> 22 October 1998:
> A JJ-7, while practising take-off and landing, couldn't lower its left landing gear.
> Pilot(s) ejected.
> 
> October 1998:
> A J-7L trainer crashed into a mountain.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 15 September 1998:
> In Tian Jin, near Yang Cun, a Ba Yi J-7EB, number 10, was looping at low altitude, stalled, and crashed.
> The Ba Yi is the PLAAF air demo team.
> Pilot YANG Sheng Li martyred.
> 
> 25 August 1998:
> A JJ-6 was test-running on the ground, engine caught fire, and burnt out.
> 
> 21 July 1998:
> A J-6 had engine problem and crashed while taking off.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> May 1998:
> A Su-27SK, number 13, disintegrated in mid-air, because of careless ground checks and pilot's manoeuvring.
> Based at Wu Hu AB, An Hui Province.
> Pilot CHEN Li Ming martyred.
> 
> 27 April 1998:
> Two J-7D collided and crashed, during night training mission.
> 29th Division, PLAAF, based at Qu Zhou AB, Zhe Jiang Province.
> Lead (number 25106) pilot ejected. Wingman (25007) pilot martyred.
> 
> 27 February 1998:
> A Z-11 flew onto the ground because of pilot error, during low altitude test flight.
> Crew not wounded.
> 
> 17 February 1998:
> A JJ-6 took off, engine caught fire, and crashed.
> Two crew martyred.
> 
> 12 November 1997:
> At Sui Xi AB, two SU-27SK took off, collided, and crashed.
> 
> 6 November 1997:
> A Su-27 engine flamed out and crashed.
> 
> 10 October 1997:
> A JJ-6 flew into power lines and crashed.
> Two crew martyred.
> 
> 23 August 1997:
> A JJ-7 had bird strike, while taking off for night traning sortie.
> Pilot(s) ejected.
> 
> August 1997:
> In Chong Qing, a 33rd Division, PLAAF, J-8B and a Y-6 collided while landing.
> J-8B pilot ejected.
> Y-6 four crew martyred. Y-6 was carrying 20 air-launched bombs.
> 
> 14 July 1997:
> Two J-7 crashed while landing in poor weather.
> Two pilots martyed.
> 
> May 1997:
> A Su-27SMK [sic] crashed into a mountain, because novice pilot unfamiliar with night training.
> Based at Sui Xi AB.
> Pilot LIN Zhi martyred.
> 
> January 1997:
> In Gui Lin control area, a J-7 crashed.
> 2nd Division, PLAAF.
> 
> November 1996:
> Two J-8B, number 81295 and 81186, crashed.
> PLAN, based at Ling Shui AB, Hai Nan Province.
> Pilots WANG Fang and LI Ming martyred.
> 
> 27 November 1996:
> In Si Chuan Province, two Su-27UBK collided while flying close formation, after lead aircraft engine flamed out.
> 
> 13 October 1996:
> A J-6 had both engines sputtered and crashed.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 11 June 1996:
> A J-6 flew into a spiral and crashed.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> April 1996:
> In Hu Bei Province, at Yi Chang AB, a Su-27SK crashed while landing.
> 
> 24 June 1994:
> A flight of two JJ-6 flew into a thunder storm, attempted and failed emergency landings.
> 
> 10 June 1994:
> A H-5 had compass malfunction, got lost, bingo fuel, and failed emergency landing.
> Crew martyred.
> 
> 23 April 1992:
> A J-6 crashed, because of pilot error.
> Pilot ejected.
> 
> 22 July 1988:
> A J-6 crashed.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 21 July 1987:
> A J-6 had engine flame-out and crashed.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 16 September 1984:
> A J-6 crashed, because of pilot error.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> 29 March 1980:
> A J-6 crashed into a mountain while landing.
> Pilot martyred.
> 
> These incidents are only those which permeates through the censor of PLAAF.
> (Cross posting from another thread)




very nice
but i think chinese will not talking about it.
because they have nature "everything should be hidden"

Reactions: Like Like:
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## black flame

hey guys i just have one question i know its off topic 
"Is there a minimum number of posts a member should have before starting a thread because i tried to start but it said my account didnot have the privilege to start a thread"
this was the error msg
"you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."


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## Choppers

*"Arjun-meets-performance-objectives",Team Waits For Army's Report​*


> *The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks. Watch this space.*



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: "Arjun Meets Performance Objectives", Team Waits For Army's Report

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GR8 News,,,lets hope 4 d best

Reactions: Like Like:
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## razgriz19

...now im very confused!!


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## Choppers

razgriz19 said:


> ...now im very confused!!


Wait till the official news is out.


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## thebrownguy

Just wats going on....  or


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## graphican

I will be more than happy if India inducts them.


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## thebrownguy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Awwww... we never knew you cared so much!!


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## Choppers

Anyways I think we need to wait till the official confirmation of the news


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## Dark Angel

*Best part to me is that ARJUN can fire Lahat ATGMs very effective*


*Lahat ATGMs*










While the AL-kalid uses 9M119 Svir which is outdated soviet atgm which has a range of 6000m max but Lahat has a range of 8000m max so the arjun can be out of its sight and fire from around 2kms safe haven


*9M119 Svir*

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## booo

They are not going to buy anymore. so it doesnt matter if it meets objectives.

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## Hulk

The info I have suggest they will have to buy more, it will be few hundreds not thousands and 175 seems good.


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## Raje amar

Dont warry guys, Arjun is a very good tank only proble is its weight.

in the most pasimistic senario IA will induct 250 more Arjun tank which will take another 5 to 7 years for induction & by then either Mark 2 or FMBT will be ordered.


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## Creder



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## Novice09

booo said:


> They are not going to buy anymore. so it doesnt matter if it meets objectives.



If my source is correct





250+ *Mark I*

P.S.: This figure exclude already ordered 124 Tanks.

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## flaming arrow

yes thats correct around 250 mk1 version will be inducted followed by mk2 in coming years,if unknown sources are to be believed mk2 has isreali collaboration in it and the work has been going on for quite sometime now,but i will still wait fr the official news to come,pretty strange isnt it before putin was to arrive in delhi the same shiv aroor's blog said Arjun;s dead but now cz he has left we have the army saying AAL IZZ WELL


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## flaming arrow

ARJUN FIRING LAHAT

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## LCA Tejas

CHECK THIS OUT...Tank EX

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## paritosh

razgriz19 said:


> ...now im very confused!!



I will help...the Arjun even after meeting all the laid objectives...isn't going to be inducted as it would only be another parallel tank to the T-90S in the IA...which already has been inducted in large numbers...
The Arjun is a very good tank but it's shelf-life has been hampered by the delay...had it been inducted in 2000...we'd have bought 600-700 of them...but it'd be retired around 2020-2025..so instead the better thing is to develop a more futuristic tank that can be delivered by 2020 and serve till 2050...
the future is the only thing going against the Arjun...
it's a good thing that they have perfected the tank..now it's be easier to prepare for the markII...which has all the chances of being inducted...

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## graphican

thebrownguy said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Awwww... we never knew you cared so much!!



Now you know we do!


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## flaming arrow

Arjun's development pace sure was slow but the product we have today is a potent machine,DRDO though late has revived a much criticised so called failed project just like aakash,naag. i will wait for the final report on arjun to come out by the end of this month,after that we all will be in a much better position to say how good it was on the field and what all parametres were set before it to be called worthy enough on to be inducted in more numbers,lets see what's coming in the mk2 pacakage

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## Frankenstein

Choppers said:


> Anyways I think we need to wait till the official confirmation of the news


Yes we do, if you give respect to others only then u will gain respect or else its the other way around

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## Indian-Devil

Although its passed the performance objectives but still, we should wait for official confirmation from Army, how many more tanks it want. We all want to see more Arjun in IA.

But one thing is clear, whether its inducted in more nos or not but deff. it will give boast up to DRDO to build next generation tank by the exp. they have gained from Arjun Tank.

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## Merilion

paritosh said:


> I will help...the Arjun even after meeting all the laid objectives...isn't going to be inducted as it would only be another parallel tank to the T-90S in the IA...which already has been inducted in large numbers...
> The Arjun is a very good tank but it's shelf-life has been hampered by the delay...had it been inducted in 2000...we'd have bought 600-700 of them...but it'd be retired around 2020-2025..so instead the better thing is to develop a more futuristic tank that can be delivered by 2020 and serve till 2050...
> the future is the only thing going against the Arjun...
> it's a good thing that they have perfected the tank..now it's be easier to prepare for the markII...which has all the chances of being inducted...



how many T90s have already been inducted in the IA?
how many T90s are going to be inducted in the IA?
why not stop inducting those T90s not yet to be inducted and replace the number with Arjun?


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## LCA Tejas

Merilion said:


> how many T90s have already been inducted in the IA?
> how many T90s are going to be inducted in the IA?
> why not stop inducting those T90s not yet to be inducted and replace the number with Arjun?



We have already signed contract for 1000 T-90's.... and Arjun is extra, but army dosent want two MBT's of the same class..


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## Merilion

Indian-Devil said:


> Although its passed the performance objectives but still, we should wait for official confirmation from Army, how many more tanks it want. We all want to see more Arjun in IA.
> 
> But one thing is clear, whether its inducted in more nos or not but deff. it will give boast up to DRDO to build next generation tank by the exp. they have gained from Arjun Tank.



if u dont induct large number Arjuns u will have significant less feedbacks from the field on the tank and those feedbacks are vital important for any future improvement designs.

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## Merilion

LCA Tejas said:


> We have already signed contract for 1000 T-90's.... and Arjun is extra, but army dosent want two MBT's of the same class..



if it's for national interests i dont see why cannot reduce the 1000 T90s contract to at least half to make a room for arjun. IA shd know this better than anyone i guess.


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## LCA Tejas

Merilion said:


> if it's for national interests i dont see why cannot reduce the 1000 T90s contract to at least half to make a room for arjun. IA shd know this better than anyone i guess.



No, thats not possible, how can u break a contract??? And moreover,its not right to move from whats promised.... India army will Get Arjun, but not more thn 200-300 for sure, because IA wants Arjun MK2


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## flaming arrow

Indian-Devil said:


> Although its passed the performance objectives but still, we should wait for official confirmation from Army, how many more tanks it want. We all want to see more Arjun in IA.
> 
> But one thing is clear, whether its inducted in more no's or not but deff. it will give boast up to DRDO to build next generation tank by the exp. they have gained from Arjun Tank.



DRDO had already worked upon the tank-ex which has the turret of arjun with slope armour and the chassi of the t-72,it ws whn the army ws crying foul that the arjun cannot be carried by by IL 76 coz of its width,the new generation tank will be revolving somewhere around it if DRDO is to deliver the mk2 on urgent basis.they have the technology knowhow,little of what has been ever talked about is the isreali angle in the arjun project,to proove that arjun has overcome all its problems the DRDO had used third party assesment of the tank,the third party was isreali,and they were impressed by it,to go further thier is a lot of equipment onboard it which is isreali,most known of all is the LAHAT,i can tell you what all is in it but then again i have no source to proove it,but it will be foolish to discard it saying its junk as almost all our pakistani and chinese friends always state....still from a good discussions point of view arjun is already on the field 124 to come in first batch with two armoured regiment already raised 73rd n 43rd(correct me if iam wrong)..keeping aside fanboy talks an army proffesional as PA knows the odd and will be meticuluosly planning for a strategy.Also the Indian army is know for seeking for perfection,guys please don't forget the so called AKASH & NAG were termed a huge failure,bt DRDO kept on removing te glithches and see the great numbers with which they are inducting it,this goes to show that though late we reach what we aim for,arjun mk1 still has lacks few things which are onboard t-90 like T-90 has a remotely operated gun station on it, the Arjun currently lacks it. The crew has to come out and be exposed to enemy small arms fire to be able to use the machine gun on the turret.all this can come on mk2 version.there is always a scope for improvement

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## paritosh

Merilion said:


> if it's for national interests i dont see why cannot reduce the 1000 T90s contract to at least half to make a room for arjun. IA shd know this better than anyone i guess.



It's complicated Merilion....you are right about the national interest thing...
but here's what happened...
the IA waited for the Arjun to be ready during the entire 90s decade...and had the bulk of armor comprising of upgraded T-72s...against Pakistan's T-80UDs..the T-72's didn't even have a/cs...!

the security of the country couldn't have been compromised for long...
the T-90s were developed by Russia...were a highly developed tank based on the T-72s which we already operated...so we ordered for 300 of them waiting for the Arjun to show up...
the aRmy loved the tank...and contracts were placed for more...that is exactly why the Arjun is despised by the army...even though it performs...
the army now has 600 T-90s...can't go for a similar tank..when there is a contract already placed...


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## paritosh

LCA Tejas said:


> CHECK THIS OUT...Tank EX



A ground-hugging T-72 body with an Arjun turret...this tank has a future...

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## sancho

paritosh said:


> A ground-hugging T-72 body with an Arjun turret...this tank has a future...


The problem is the cost or? As far as I read it in the several Arjun threads here, the T90 are clearly cheaper, so even if the Arjun turret would be a good upgrade for old T72s, the question is how costly would this be and what are the alternatives?
Raythion wants to offer IA a possible upgrade and no doubt that the Israelis will offer similar too, will be interesting to see if IA is ready to spend possibly more for indigenous parts.


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## Rain

a tank gone down in trial is much better thn the one tht goes down in war. 
btw does AK has remotely contolled secondry guns?


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## zeus

out of 3000+ tanks we need to replace almost all tanks with new ones ,T-55 and T-72 are still have huge numbers in india ,T-90 (1000) and Arjun (300) and some T-72 with Arjun turret (500) will form new Tank force ,we will have Arjun-MKII and T-XX


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## hardcore

arjuns should be brought out atleast for numbers


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## Indian-Devil

LCA Tejas said:


> We have already signed contract for 1000 T-90's.... and Arjun is extra, but army dosent want two MBT's of the same class..




Arjun and T-90 are not in same class. Arjun is Heavy Battle tank. It can fire more armaments than T-90 and its even more robust and has better protection and fire power 
Primary concern of Army for less no of Arjun is because of the mobility of the tank to the borders thru rail and roads because of its weight.

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## LCA Tejas

Indian-Devil said:


> Arjun and T-90 are not in same class. Arjun is Heavy Battle tank. It can fire more armaments than T-90 and its even more robust and has better protection and fire power
> Primary concern of Army for less no of Arjun is because of the mobility of the tank to the borders thru rail and roads because of its weight.



Yeah thats also True... Hey cant it be airlifted???? DRDO must do something to reduce its weight... But This sould be fine....


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## LCA Tejas




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## razgriz19

LCA Tejas said:


> Yeah thats also True... Hey cant it be airlifted???? DRDO must do something to reduce its weight... But This sould be fine....



why airlift?? it will be very $$$....
use railway transportation....


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## LCA Tejas

razgriz19 said:


> why airlift?? it will be very $$$....
> use railway transportation....



yeah, but this tank is toooooooo heavy....


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## flaming arrow

razgriz19 said:


> why airlift?? it will be very $$$....
> use railway transportation....



there are many area's where in railway network is not present for rest all airlift is the most appropiate option evn if its costly

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## sudhir007

I think we need more of these Arjun(it will build for hot and humid condition and run better then russian T-90) tank coze i dnt think T-90s work very well in hot and humid condition in Rajistan or gujarat and also T-90 performance is not good in that atmostphar where in summer temprature goes up to 50-60 dgree and may be more (i think it is bcoze T-90 is russian tank and it is built in his evierement ) so it will work better in north east area. so from my side i think we need lateast 400-500 tank


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## LCA Tejas

sudhir007 said:


> I think we need more of these Arjun(it will build for hot and humid condition and run better then russian T-90) tank coze i dnt think T-90s work very well in hot and humid condition in Rajistan or gujarat and also T-90 performance is not good in that atmostphar where in summer temprature goes up to 50-60 dgree and may be more (i think it is bcoze T-90 is russian tank and it is built in his evierement ) so it will work better in north east area. so from my side i think we need lateast 400-500 tank



Dont Underestimate T-90... It performs Very Well In those region....this stat will help you.....

Arjun is no less than Any other tank, but the Price is a bit too more

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## ARCHON

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/sumo_mismatch.jpg


yes it passed


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## LCA Tejas

If todays Arjun is Better, then Arjun MK2 will be the best .. its obvious by the stats mentioned above ...

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## abdul1

The arjun saga is classic chicken and egg story. The continuous GSQR changes has made the development agency running around to meet the criteria even after 1996 where it met the objectives new objectives were added and here the development agency fault that they accepted the customer demand rather then saying to go with the PPS models that were passed the test then ACURT saga the less said about it is better. I think IA can easily accommodate the tanks in 500 nos as it will still be less then 10&#37; of total tank fleet strength. It will be really stupid move to stall the project now as this will again repeat the marut saga which is resulted in crucial knowledge lost.


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## paritosh

Indian-Devil said:


> Arjun and T-90 are not in same class. Arjun is Heavy Battle tank. It can fire more armaments than T-90 and its even more robust and has better protection and fire power
> Primary concern of Army for less no of Arjun is because of the mobility of the tank to the borders thru rail and roads because of its weight.



yes these are the differences...but the point is that it is a main battle tank...and so is the T-90...we can't have both of them...they need different infrastructural requirements...like the rail carriages won't be able to carry Arjuns...while they will carry the T-90s...about the pretcion suite...I am not sure about the Arjun's Kanchan being better than the Kaktus...


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## Frankenstein

Dark Angel said:


> *Best part to me is that ARJUN can fire Lahat ATGMs very effective*
> 
> 
> *Lahat ATGMs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the AL-kalid uses 9M119 Svir which is outdated soviet atgm which has a range of 6000m max but Lahat has a range of 8000m max so the arjun can be out of its sight and fire from around 2kms safe haven
> 
> 
> *9M119 Svir*



Yes but no offense, I heard it lacks accuracy plus i am not good in tanks but I think in Al-Khalid 1 it is different and also AL-Khalid 2 which is under development


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## ARCHON

Frankenstein said:


> Yes but no offense, I heard it lacks accuracy plus i am not good in tanks but I think in Al-Khalid 1 it is different and also AL-Khalid 2 which is under development



LAHAT missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7 meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees, providing effective penetration of up to 800 mm of armor steel with its tandem warhead to deal with add-on reactive armor. LAHAT might also carry embedded active protection system countermeasure capabilities. In any tank the LAHAT is stowed like other rounds in the ammunition rack, and handled just like any other type of ammunition.


what you heard is wrong. somebody tried to fool you for sure.

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## Relucent

I just read on a forum that rifled barrel guns cannot fire "missles",and so is the case with Challenge2 tank (the only other tank with a rifled gun).Is this capability to fire a ATGM(LAHAT) using a rifled gun unique to Arjun??????

"Challenger 2 is equipped with a 120 mm (4.7-inch) 55 calibre long L30A1 tank gun,[5] the successor to the L11 gun used on Chieftain and Challenger 1. The gun is made from high strength Electro Slag Remelting (ESR) steel with a chromium alloy lining and, like earlier British 120 mm guns, it is insulated by a thermal sleeve. It is fitted with a muzzle reference system and fume extractor, and is controlled by an all-electric control and stabilization system. The turret has a rotation time of 9 seconds through 360 degrees.

Uniquely among NATO main battle tank armament, the L30A1 is rifled, because the British Army continues to place a premium on the use of high explosive squash head (HESH) rounds in addition to APFSDS armour-piercing rounds. HESH rounds have a longer range (up to 8 kilometres / 5 miles) than APFSDS, and are more effective against buildings and thin-skinned vehicles.

Forty-nine main armament rounds are carried in the turret and hull; these are a mix of L27A1 APFSDS (also referred to as CHARM 3), L31 HESH and L34 white phosphorus smoke rounds, depending on the situation. As with earlier versions of the 120 mm gun, the propellant charges are loaded separately from the shell or KE projectile. A combustible rigid charge is used for the APFSDS rounds, and a combustible hemispherical bag charge for the HESH and Smoke rounds. An electrically-fired vent tube is used to initiate firing of the main armament rounds. (The main armament ammunition is thus described to be "three part ammunition", consisting of the projectile, charge and vent tube.) Contrary to speculation, the use of three-part ammunition rather than the NATO standard single part cased ammunition does not reduce the rate of fire of Challenger 2; in fact, a loader can often sustain a higher rate of fire than tanks firing single part ammunition, with or without auto-loaders.

The Challenger 2 is also armed with a L94A1 EX-34 7.62 mm chain gun coaxially to the left of the main gun, and a 7.62 mm L37A2 (GPMG) machine gun mounted on a pintle on the loader's hatch ring. 4,200 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition are carried."
Challenger 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bit off topic but i had to ask


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## jha

paritosh said:


> yes these are the differences...but the point is that it is a main battle tank...and so is the T-90...we can't have both of them...they need different infrastructural requirements...like the rail carriages won't be able to carry Arjuns...while they will carry the T-90s...about the pretcion suite...I am not sure about the Arjun's Kanchan being better than the Kaktus...



even i had heard the same about the problem of present rail carriages not being able to carry ARJUN but in some other forum probably BR or, *** ( i am not sure) some one said that ARJUN is just 5 cms more wider than the present carriage size . so if they are carried only 5 cm of the body will be outside the carriage...if that is true than i dont think 5 cm over size will be that much of an issue , will it...?


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## Frankenstein

birdofprey said:


> LAHAT missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7 meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees, providing effective penetration of up to 800 mm of armor steel with its tandem warhead to deal with add-on reactive armor. LAHAT might also carry embedded active protection system countermeasure capabilities. In any tank the LAHAT is stowed like other rounds in the ammunition rack, and handled just like any other type of ammunition.
> 
> 
> *what you heard is wrong. somebody tried to fool you for sure.*


Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.

Oh really, no offense buddy but seems like your army is fooling me 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/5579-arjun-tank-faulty.html
http://dailymailnews.com/dmsp0204/16-0110.htm:azn:
And please dont make a big deal out of it
Peace Out!


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## flaming arrow

Frankenstein said:


> Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.
> 
> Oh really, no offense buddy but seems like your army is fooling me
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/5579-arjun-tank-faulty.html
> http://dailymailnews.com/dmsp0204/16-0110.htm:azn:
> And please dont make a big deal out of it
> Peace Out!



sir ur link is notr working but still this problme has been discussed till death in the past,main problem which arjun was facing were the inaccuracy while firing,engine failure..both of these problems have been now sorted out,in the parliamentery report mr. Antony cleared it,It was this success which actually made the DRDO confident enough to pitch thier product against a prooved and robust killing platform like the T-90,drdo's name is more associated with delays on projects,the whole world is looking for this kind of comparitive trial..the whole trial has its own PR value an organisation will never evn in its wildest dream would want to be pitched against a world class product if its not confident of its product,the DRDO took a great risk and i think it payed ....also how many such trials have been conducted around the world in the past??? a tank is evolved in years tak the example of Merkava,leopard..they have been incorporating the best tech which keeps coming,its a ever going process

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## LCA Tejas




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## flaming arrow

paritosh said:


> yes these are the differences...but the point is that it is a main battle tank...and so is the T-90...we can't have both of them...they need different infrastructural requirements...like the rail carriages won't be able to carry Arjuns...while they will carry the T-90s...about the pretcion suite...I am not sure about the Arjun's Kanchan being better than the Kaktus...



paritosh sir i agree with you till a certain extent,actually infrastructure is not that big a issue as it has been made to look,rail carriages have been developed which can carry arjun somebody had posted a link to that on this forum if iam not mistaking,actually army just cannot induct the Arjun in big number's reason being Indian armies doctrinal revolves around t-90 or it old brother t-72,Arjun is from a different class its a heavy mbt,havent we all been noticing the changes that has been ging on in the statement,intially the trial was t-90 vs Arjun then it became trial where only arjun will be evaluated(t-90 skipped) from that we have today trials conducted so that we can devise the role in which Arjun will best fit,arjun outshines t-90 anyday if we go by the specs..army is accepting it today beacuse it knows that it is a good tank,its is our deso maal,and if we want somethimng homegrown this is correct time to give the impetus,jingoism removed i wud never want my men going in the field with a desi inferior maal against my enemies tank,i will say a russi tank with all isreali and european maal in it should so that we come out victors..take for example PA'S al-khalid 1, i will say its a dangerous machine now!!why beacause now PAKISTANI ARMY is stuffing european equipment onboard it,will they be rolling out al khalid 2...yes they will.structural shortcoming armour composition,fire control system,electronics everything etc etc will come n the new packge depeding upon thier budget...similarly arjun mk2 is there in the form of tank ex,havent we seen it drdo was smart on this they are working along with isreali's on it adding what best cann be given to it the Rafael Trophy Active Protection System has already been tested on it if u believe me and much more.

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## ARCHON

> Yes but no offense, I heard it lacks accuracy plus i am not good in tanks but I think in Al-Khalid 1 it is different and also AL-Khalid 2 which is under development





> Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.




so what exactly is it?? accuracy of what?? Arjun??? 

i think you are confused about Arjun the MBT and arjun the archer in pandavas of mahabharatha.. 

Yes he is a bit un accurate at times..

Indian army is not throwing tanks like a cricket ball at enemy to be accurate.. 

accuracy you referred is very much was about LAHAT , coz that was the relavant discussion then...


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## ARCHON

Rafeal shouldn't be get confused with the French aircraft named the same.
Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. , known as RAFAEL or Rafael, (also spelled as Raphael or Rephael, is the Israeli authority for development of weapons and military technology. Rafael is a former sub-division of the Israeli Defence ministry and is considered a governmental firm.


Do i need to speak of Indian and Isreali *co operation*??

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## lhuang

birdofprey said:


> YouTube - Trophy Demo - March 2006
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Trophy anti-RPG system (as seen on FOX News)
> 
> Rafeal shouldn't be get confused with the French aircraft named the same.
> Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. , known as RAFAEL or Rafael, (also spelled as Raphael or Rephael, is the Israeli authority for development of weapons and military technology. Rafael is a former sub-division of the Israeli Defence ministry and is considered a governmental firm.
> 
> 
> Do i need to speak of Indian and Isreali *co operation*??



Is this in the Arjun?


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## chachachoudhary

[quote Oh really, no offense buddy but seems like your army is fooling me 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/5579-arjun-tank-faulty.html
http://dailymailnews.com/dmsp0204/16-0110.htm:azn:
And please dont make a big deal out of it
Peace Out![/quote]

You are right buddy. The army generals are referring a copy of this book I have written exclusively for them

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## Hulk

flaming arrow said:


> paritosh sir i agree with you till a certain extent,actually infrastructure is not that big a issue as it has been made to look,rail carriages have been developed which can carry arjun somebody had posted a link to that on this forum if iam not mistaking,actually army just cannot induct the Arjun in big number's reason being Indian armies doctrinal revolves around t-90 or it old brother t-72,Arjun is from a different class its a heavy mbt,havent we all been noticing the changes that has been ging on in the statement,intially the trial was t-90 vs Arjun then it became trial where only arjun will be evaluated(t-90 skipped) from that we have today trials conducted so that we can devise the role in which Arjun will best fit,arjun outshines t-90 anyday if we go by the specs..army is accepting it today beacuse it knows that it is a good tank,its is our deso maal,and if we want somethimng homegrown this is correct time to give the impetus,jingoism removed i wud never want my men going in the field with a desi inferior maal against my enemies tank,i will say a russi tank with all isreali and european maal in it should so that we come out victors..take for example PA'S al-khalid 1, i will say its a dangerous machine now!!why beacause now PAKISTANI ARMY is stuffing european equipment onboard it,will they be rolling out al khalid 2...yes they will.structural shortcoming armour composition,fire control system,electronics everything etc etc will come n the new packge depeding upon thier budget...similarly arjun mk2 is there in the form of tank ex,havent we seen it drdo was smart on this they are working along with isreali's on it adding what best cann be given to it the Rafael Trophy Active Protection System has already been tested on it if u believe me and much more.YouTube - Rafael Trophy Active Protection System



I will be very happy if this is built in Arjun. Please confirm?


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## ARCHON

The Pentagon's Office of Force Transformation (OFT) scoured the world for a solution and thought it found one in "Trophy," which was developed over the last decade in Israel.

Trophy works by scanning all directions and automatically detecting when an RPG is launched. The system then fires an interceptor &#8212; traveling hundreds of miles a minute &#8212; that destroys the RPG safely away from the vehicle.

OFT subjected Trophy to 30 tests and found it is "more than 98 percent" effective at killing RPGs. Officials then made plans to battle-test the system on some Stryker fighting vehicles headed to Iraq this year.

But the U.S. Army blocked that testing. Why? Pentagon sources tell NBC News &#8212; and internal Army documents seem to confirm &#8212; that Army officials consider Trophy a threat to their crown jewel, the $160 billion Future Combat System (FCS). Under FCS, the Army is paying Raytheon Co. $70 million to build an RPG-defense system from scratch.


In an interview with NBC News on June 26, 2006, an Army official said Trophy simply is not ready.

"The Army is opposed to deploying a system before we assure that it's safe, effective, suitable and supportable," said Col. Donald Kotchman. "Trophy is not there yet."

In letters to Congress since our first reports, the Army says that the best proof Trophy is not ready is that the "Israeli Defense Forces have yet to integrate and field Trophy."

To check out the Army's claims, we went back to Israel. We found that the Israeli military has indeed begun to integrate and field Trophy on tanks, buying at least 100 systems. 

Brig. Gen. Amir Nir leads that effort. We asked him about claims that Trophy has not been sufficiently tested and that it's not ready to be deployed.

"It's the most mature, and it can do the job," he said. "We cannot afford waiting for the next generation."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16545885//


it would be soon seen on an indian tank after its in an isreali tank..


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## ARCHON

Army HQ on April 24 last year issued requests for proposals to six companies (Israel Military Industries, RAFAEL, BAE Systems, Raytheon, Rosoboronexport, Saab, and Germanys IBD Deisenroth Engineering) for procuring 1,657 active protection systems (APS) worth $270 million. Those taking part in the Indian bid were Russias Kolomna-based KBM Engineering Design Bureau with its Arena-E APS on offer, IMI of *Israel with its Iron Fist suite on offer, RAFAELs Trophy APS,* Raytheons Quick Kill APS, Saabs LEDS-150 and Deisenroth Engineerings AMAP-ADS. Eventually, the LEDS-150 was selected and its procurement contract was inked on January 27, 2009. The Land Electronic Defence System (LEDS) combines active signature management, soft-kill and hard-kill mechanisms to provide full spectrum active protection to armoured vehicles. Full hemispherical coverage is provided to detect incoming threats and alert the crew. When installed in full configuration, the LEDS-150 offers MBT-comparable protection to light and medium combat vehicles against engagement by weapons like RPG-7s, anti-tank guided-missiles, KE ammunition, mortars and artillery shells. The LEDS-150 is an active defence system and typically comprises laser warning sensors, ADC-150 active defence controller AD, a number of munition confirmation and tracking sensors, and high-speed directed launchers, which allow the combination of soft- and hard-kill countermeasure deployment capability to the platform, optional displays, and interconnecting harnesses. The hard kill feature of the LEDS-150 product is characterised by its capability to physically destroy the efficiency of the terminal ballistic capability of attacking munitions without residual penetration of the protected vehicle. The hard kill system detects and tracks a single or simultaneous threats and calculates if the attacking munition will hit the platform or not. The system determines the best inertial intercept position and provides the slew and firing commands to the launchers. The Mongoose-1 countermeasure missile is launched at a predetermined time to intercept and neutralise the detected munition off-board at a distance of between 5 metres and 15 metres from the vehicle to minimise the collateral damage to own forces.

Interestingly, the hulls and welded steel turrets of the 330 T-90Ms, along with their Rapira gun barrels, will be fabricated by HVF with locally-sourced raw materials, while an improved version of the indigenous Kanchan modular ceramics-based composite laminate armour package will be used for substituting the Russian package, whose technology-transfer has been denied by Russia. The same also goes for the Kaktus ERA tiles and RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating, which will be totally imported from Russia.

Presently, as things stand, Indian Army HQ is adhering to a modified MBT force structure, whose original version, as proposed in 2006, had called for a fleet of 3,780 MBTs, comprising 1,302 T-90s 2,356 T-72s and 124 Arjun Mk1s. The modified structure now calls for 2,473 higher-end MBTs, including 1,409 T-90s, 248 Arjuns, and 692 T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeyas. The Armys gameplan is to have 21 regiments of T-90s and 34 regiments of upgraded T-72M1s and six regiments of Arjuns by 2020.

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## flaming arrow

indianrabbit said:


> I will be very happy if this is built in Arjun. Please confirm?



sir ARJUN has imbued all the best tech of other world class tanks in it,thanks to the diligent work done by drdo coming to the topic ARJUN,the recent trials were actually not trials but an exercise where the strength and the weakness of ARJUN & T-90,were evaulated,ARJUN has already faced what it had to proove its worth,its time all that now comes in front of us so that the critics can have thier mouth shut,work on ARJUN 2 is already underway which is in front of us in form of tank ex,with the slant turret on it,critics have been crying rivers that arjun-mk1 armour is not slant (thats because its design is 2 decades old any more modification would have further slowed its development pace) and cannot withstand this n that,it cannot be compared to this and that may be this feeling which has homed inside them will change soon.. ARJUN had taken direct hit from t-90(ap round) and passed,if one wants kill this beast you will have to destroy its track or pray that the crew somehow swtiches off its electronics or hit it with something like a milan from less ten 200 mtrs repeatedly.How can i say all this!! well these are the words of the officers who operate it,you all must be remembering a third party was called in to evaluate ARJUN,the party was isreali.and they had gone back home stunned after witnessing ARJUNS performance..Arjun uses certain electronics that are onboard the isreali Merkeva AND Abrhams tanks,used for detection of mines, the army wants a mix of both tank now.thermal imagner of the arjun tank was something which gives it a cut above,the ergonomics inside the tank is also very good crew comfort is such taht even a russian operator would shed tears of joy...........thier is a self diagnsotic system which tells you if the arjun is well or not,not just this it tells you about the problem area too.this kind of tech is currently used in abrahams and merkeva 4,the main gun of arjun beats merkeva anyday,these are just not my words its what the isrealis had to say who are working on it according to then Arjun's rifled gun is an accidentle find by us.Arjun passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds, it passed fragmented top attack munitions,guys there is alot more then what meets the eye,many member's will discard what all i have stated but thats ok..only point i wanted to make was that we should critically see how DRDO is transforming its so called failed projects into very succesful one's..


BY : THE HINDU
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) dispelled apprehensions that there was a question mark over the capability of the indigenously manufactured Arjun tank.
Speaking at a press conference here on Saturday, DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat dismissed reports that the tank was undergoing yet another series of revaluations vis-&#192;-vis the Russian T-90 main battle tanks.
Dr. Saraswat said that half of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army had already rolled out, and there was no rethink about their induction. The comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tank&#8217;s role in the overall arsenal of the Army. &#8220;It is a normal process of identifying the role the tank will play in the plans,&#8221; he said.
&#8220;Let me make it clear, that these are not evaluation trials of the Arjun tank, as those trials, including in summer and winter months, are over and more than 50 per cent of the tanks have now rolled out of the factory for induction.&#8221;

No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief idrw.org

The Arjun at 58.5-tonne is much heavier than the 46.5 tonne T-90. But with more powerful engines the Arjun moves faster than the T-90. It is ideal for deployment in the arid Rajasthan-Gujarat sector facing Pakistan.

The Arjun has better and latest systems on board. It has better transmission system than the T-90, accurate firepower while on the move. The Arjun has better thermal imaging capability, enabling it night vision.

The night vision capability of T-90 is of lower category. It malfunctions in the heat of Rajasthan, says an in-house input of the Indian Army. The Army plans to have 1,650 T-90s in the next few years. The production has been localised and the first tanks built in India rolled out a few months ago.
:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

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## kallol

My take :

Arjun is not in the class of T-90 which is sub-50 t class. It is in the class of Abraham i.e 60 t + class. Arjun is 58 t.

Capability wise also Arjun is way ahead of T-90 which has been proved time and again.

The chasis has been modified for transportation by rail. However the logistics to support the movement of the tanks across ditches, canals and rivulets are not yet developed for 60 t. This is a main worry as the plains where these tanks are planned to be used are full of these hurdles. Now they are supposed to be in the process of strategising the scenario with Arjun tanks.

Again starting from BJP government, there has been a shift in the perception of the GoI. Taking a cue from China and other similar category nations, GoI has put more thrust in Indian products. Though it does not mean 100% indigenous but having more control over the systems and technology. 

So in the last 10 - 12 years we have seen lots of Indian defence products coming of the Indian organization.

Again if you notice there has been a change in the attitude of army and GoI has made it clear about IA's accountibility in such development. So starting from 2009 there has been a perceptible change of tune in regards to Arjun. 

They had taken out T-70 from the competition (which Arjun is supposed to replace) and are even saying that T-90 should not be pitted or compared with Arjun, which is a different class !!!

With the trend which is coming out, IA will have to eat their words and GoI will believe no nonsense as it has become a media trial. The accountibility of the money spent will not allow GoI to allow IA to make arbitrary decision. The break even number is 500. 

The numbers upto Mark II will be 500+, which will include the indigenisation of the tank almost fully. Only then the Mark-II will be really fruitful and cascade a chain of further development

Keeping fingers crossed but hope that better senses prevail.

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## jha

our MK-2 in every project is going to have some very kick@$$ features.....


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## hardcore

does Arjun have sloped Armour???


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## abdul1

hardcore said:


> does Arjun have sloped Armour???



no it doe snot


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## paritosh

flaming arrow said:


> paritosh sir i agree with you till a certain extent,actually infrastructure is not that big a issue as it has been made to look,rail carriages have been developed which can carry arjun somebody had posted a link to that on this forum if iam not mistaking,actually army just cannot induct the Arjun in big number's reason being Indian armies doctrinal revolves around t-90 or it old brother t-72,Arjun is from a different class its a heavy mbt,havent we all been noticing the changes that has been ging on in the statement,intially the trial was t-90 vs Arjun then it became trial where only arjun will be evaluated(t-90 skipped) from that we have today trials conducted so that we can devise the role in which Arjun will best fit,arjun outshines t-90 anyday if we go by the specs..army is accepting it today beacuse it knows that it is a good tank,its is our deso maal,and if we want somethimng homegrown this is correct time to give the impetus,jingoism removed i wud never want my men going in the field with a desi inferior maal against my enemies tank,i will say a russi tank with all isreali and european maal in it should so that we come out victors..take for example PA'S al-khalid 1, i will say its a dangerous machine now!!why beacause now PAKISTANI ARMY is stuffing european equipment onboard it,will they be rolling out al khalid 2...yes they will.structural shortcoming armour composition,fire control system,electronics everything etc etc will come n the new packge depeding upon thier budget...similarly arjun mk2 is there in the form of tank ex,havent we seen it drdo was smart on this they are working along with isreali's on it adding what best cann be given to it the Rafael Trophy Active Protection System has already been tested on it if u believe me and much more.



flaming arrow...though I am no authority deciphering the Tank needs of the IA...
the way I see this....all the world armies are focusing on smaller...lighter tanks..made of special sturdy plastics...
the Americans seem to be working on this...though I don't know about any of their projects other than the M1Ax-abrams...
The army has got it's dedicated MBT....in the T-90S...which is better than the standard T-90M of the russkie army...the Army has worked on the T-90S and it's advancements...and has paid a lot to see it function along with another parallel platform and get the logistics divided...
the Army can add inputs to most foreign buys...like in the MKI...the MMRCA....the T-90...but the only thing it can literally dictate in is our own home-grown projects....like the Arjun...
so most probably..the army wants the arjun mark 2 to be based to the tune of future warfare....


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## hardcore

wouldn't sloping armour been better??


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## flaming arrow

paritosh said:


> flaming arrow...though I am no authority deciphering the Tank needs of the IA...
> the way I see this....all the world armies are focusing on smaller...lighter tanks..made of special sturdy plastics...
> the Americans seem to be working on this...though I don't know about any of their projects other than the M1Ax-abrams...
> The army has got it's dedicated MBT....in the T-90S...which is better than the standard T-90M of the russkie army...the Army has worked on the T-90S and it's advancements...and has paid a lot to see it function along with another parallel platform and get the logistics divided...
> the Army can add inputs to most foreign buys...like in the MKI...the MMRCA....the T-90...but the only thing it can literally dictate in is our own home-grown projects....like the Arjun...
> so most probably..the army wants the arjun mark 2 to be based to the tune of future warfare....



sir,the new generation of tank will still take some time to be integrated in armed forces around the world as the already present tanks will have to live thier lifes completely before the newer generation are inducted in large numbers,the tank design in current world is based on two philosphy the western heavy MBT design and the russian smaller Silhouette mbt's,Indian armies war doctorine revolves around the Russian tanks,our logistics are build around it strategies drawn according to them,the only heavy MBT we have operated was the CENTURIAN TANK if iam not wrong..when Arjun came in the theatre the DRDO made a tank based on western design, a tank which was meant to take out enemy armour even if it was hit,the initial product which came out had its flaw which took its painfull tie to be sorted out.But the panic button was pressed when the pakistanis purchased T-80 UD,we litteraly had know no against it,it was then when thw INDIAN ARMY went for the T-90 which was better on many fronts armour and onboard euipment,tough the decison was the haphazardly taken and a lot of furoar was raised by then PM devegoada,the IA's passiveness to towards the Arjun is because of the fact tat the DRDO could not deliver it on time,But know the the situation has changed we have a better tank in hand as ARJUN MK1,its a good tank but it has certain limitation which has come with its 25 yrs old design,Arjun in its current avatar outperfoms the T-90 in almost every aspect BUT the army would for sure want something better then this which is more futuristic so it will either ask for the Arjun mk2 or will go for the russian T-95,drdo has te mk2 version and that is TANK-EX WITH SLOPE ARMOUR SEE THE ABOVE POSTED PICS......Stroke line is this that the ARJUN MK1 wil not see order's more then 350....124+ 350= 474 tanks(my assumption), rest will be Arjun mk2 or if the army says no more to ARJUN..after the orders of T-90 is complete it will be time we wait to welcome the T-95 BLACK EAGLE...IA'S recent decision to to upgrade the T-72 i would say is an indication that INDIAN AMORMOURED CORE's still will hold it as its backbone,Arjun will be complimenting it on the battle field


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## flaming arrow

TANK EX WITH THE SLOPE ARMOUR,ITS A HYBRID BETWEEN THE TURRET OF ARJUN & THE CHASSIS OF T-72


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## flaming arrow




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## flaming arrow

INSIDE THE ARJUN TANK


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## flaming arrow




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## flaming arrow




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## Im_a_bud_bud

Is the objective for the tank to stay in one piece for more than 5 mins?


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## flaming arrow




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## flaming arrow




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## flaming arrow




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## flaming arrow

THE SELF DIGONOSTIC SYSTEM ONBOARD THE ARJUN,NOT JUST IT TELL'S YOU ABOUT THE PROBLEM INTHE ARJUN IT ALSO TELL YOU WHERE THE PROBLEM IS..THIS IND OF SYSTEM IS ONBOARD THE ABRAHAM AND THE ISREALI MERKAVA 4


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## flaming arrow

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> Is the objective for the tank to stay in one piece for more than 5 mins?



NO ITS TO ENSURE THAT DISGUISED FRIENDS/ENEMIES TANK DOES NOT SURVIVE MORE THEN 5 MINUTES IN THE BATTLE FIELD


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## ARCHON

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> Is the objective for the tank to stay in one piece for more than 5 mins?



nope its the objective for the tank "you" have in ur mind.. not the arjun..

rofl:


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## ARCHON

flaming arrow said:


> NO ITS TO ENSURE THAT DISGUISED FRIENDS/ENEMIES TANK DOES NOT SURVIVE MORE THEN 5 MINUTES IN THE BATTLE FIELD



i still dont understand why mods allow this guy to troll around in disguise to kill the spirit of this forums..

Being even an Indian i find this place very informative and creative. but ppl like these come andjust destroy the forums with utter nonsense and mods are not even taking care of them.. 

If he was a true indian he would have banned long time back....


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## Cityboy

He is locked and .playing double id game as i am bud bud.and well known toilet expert


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## kallol

Let's see if I can add some more value to the knowledge already going around.

1. Arjun is having Kanchan armour which is out of composites and honeycomb structure. It is rated as one of the best in the world. It has been tested by point blank firing from T-70 without much damage to main structure. 

2. It is being built with group seek and kill capability. That is whole of the tank regiment is networked and connected to a master centre. The whole battlefield scenario is simulated and accordingly the tanks movments are planned to prioritise actions. It is similar to AWACS for air force. This feature is possibly there with advanced countries only.

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## flaming arrow

sancho said:


> The problem is the cost or? As far as I read it in the several Arjun threads here, the T90 are clearly cheaper, so even if the Arjun turret would be a good upgrade for old T72s, the question is how costly would this be and what are the alternatives?
> Raythion wants to offer IA a possible upgrade and no doubt that the Israelis will offer similar too, will be interesting to see if IA is ready to spend possibly more for indigenous parts.


sancho ji indigenous euipment increases as a tank is evolved around the year,arjun in its current avatar employs the finest videshi maal on it,iam talking about the best isreali elecronic equipment,When Arjun mk2 enter the arena it will have more indian euipment on it beacuse of the learning experience with the imported gadgets,the world knows how closely indian and isrealis are working together.... take for example the development of LCA "TEJAS & JF-17 "THUNDER"...PAF is talking about JF-17 with french avionics why??? beacuse they know that the chinese tech is deficient comapred to the worlds best tech coming from the europe,they want the THUNDER as thier backbone and they also know that in near future JF-17 WILL be facing the sukhoi's mirages and migs all in thier upgraded versions,so if they are to give us a hard fight they would want to do wht we did to our SUKHOI 30MKI ie CUSTIMISE IT AND TAILROURED it TO MEET OUR REQUIREMENT....NOW SEE WHAT IS GOING WITH TEJAS,IF WE WERE TO ROLL OUT THIS MACHINE WITH "0" FOREIGN ASSISTANCE,THE PRODUCT WHICH WE WOULD HAVE IN OUR HAND WOULD HAVE BEEN A JET EQUAL OF INFERIOR TO THE CHINESE MADE JF-17...WHY INFERIOR BECAUSE CHINESE AVIATION INDUSTRY IS MORE MATURE THEN OURS...OUR PLANNER'S WERE SMART ENOUGH AND THE BEST WAY BRIDGE THE GAP
IS BY GOING ON JOINT VENTURES AND THE BEST OF ANYTHING AVAILABLE IN THE MARKET,WHENEVER MCA WILL COME IT WILL HAVE MORE INDIGENOUS COMPONENTS IN TERMS OF AVIONICS,RADAR AND MUCH MORE COMPARED TO TEJAS.........Now back to topic that is Arjun...Arjun mk2 in similar fashion will be adavanced and i guess cheaper beacuse of the homegrown products going on it,money is not a problem if we can out money inseriously overhauling old tanks like T-72 arjun will not/and should not be much of a problem.
i went through the old Arjun threads once again to find out what apprehentions our  friends were having and i found the following;
1. Arjun is big and thus an easy target
ans.. Arjun silhouette is (2.32m) compared to T-90'S 2.22m,ABHRAMS (2.44m).JUST 10CM DIFFERENCE IN AN OPEN FIELD,NOW JUST COMPARE THE ARMOUR WHICH IS ON ARJUN AND T-90

2.THE COST OF ARJUN IS MORE THEN T-90
Arjun is Rs. 16.8 Crore and will godown with scale.

T-90 is currently at Rs. 17.5 Crore

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html


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## flaming arrow

India to develop a futuristic tank based on Arjun


India is set to develop a futuristic battle tank that will be hardly able to detect by enemy radar and Indian developers are believed to have come up with a revolutionary 'honey comb' design for the NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armour) Armour and, according to sources, it is said to be performing 'perfectly'.

NERA is a reactive armour which works like any explosive reactive armour but with the crucial difference being the using of energy in form of a charge instead of explosives. and the report for the futuristic tank is as follows from "thaindian.com"


"The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will be developing around 12 futuristic systems in five years for incorporation into India&#8217;s first indigenously built Arjun main battle tank (MBT), an official said here Wednesday.&#8221;The futuristic technology systems include automatic target tracking, defensive aids, laser warning, tank simulator systems. We are looking at developing robotic vehicles that would work on tele-link,&#8221; R. Jayakumar, associate director of the DRDO&#8217;s Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), told reporters.
The organisation also plans to automate the tracking of targets.

&#8220;With the firing and mobility powers of the tank being satisfactory, the focus is now on making the vehicle invisible to the enemy through development of detection avoidance and laser warning systems,&#8221; said Jayakumar.

One of the labs under the DRDO, CVRDE is also in the process of developing tank simulators similar to flight simulators.

&#8220;After undergoing simulator training, a soldier can comfortably operate the vehicle,&#8221; said Jayakumar.

When asked about the status of the Indian Army&#8217;s order for 124 Arjun tanks, CVRDE director S. Sundaresh said: &#8220;The order will be completed this year. We are confident of getting more orders, which would enable us to have more local component content in the battle machine.&#8221;

Presently, the local content is around 50 percent. The engine and power train has been imported from Germany.

&#8220;We plan to source engines from Cummins India for future orders. If more orders come by, we can reduce the imported content to 25 percent,&#8221; Sundaresh added.

The research organisation has transferred the technology to the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi town.

&#8220;More than 10,000 drawings running into around 2,000 pages have been passed on to the vehicle manufacturer,&#8221; Sundaresh said.

Asked about the delays in developing the tank, officials said the army froze its specifications only in November 1985.

&#8220;The tank was unveiled in 1995. It takes at least 10 years for any country to develop a battle tank from the scratch. The army put the pre-production tanks (15 units) to rigorous tests totalling more than 70,000 km and fired over 7,000 rounds. No other tank would have undergone such tests,&#8221; said Jayakumar.

Meanwhile to commemorate the DRDO&#8217;s golden jubilee, five of its labs - CVRDE, Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, Ahmednagar; Research and Development Establishment (Engineers), Dighi; Snow and Avalanche Study Establishment, Manali; and Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics, Bangalore - will hold a two day exhibition here starting Feb 28." 

latest Defence news blog or website: India to develop a futuristic tank based on Arjun


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## s6demon

has this piece of junk started moving yet?


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## flaming arrow

s6demon said:


> has this piece of junk started moving yet?



As you have already passed your verdict you should be little concerned if its gonna ever move a inch ahead...


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## Im_a_bud_bud

Maulik said:


> He is locked and .playing double id game as i am bud bud.and well known toilet expert



What's locked around here, I don't get you? Also, find a post where I mentioned toilets.


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## LCA Tejas

s6demon said:


> has this piece of junk started moving yet?



yes this peace of Junk has started moving. Moving really well indeed, hope u dont have any problem with that, have u??  but if you call a tank comparable to T-90, I wonder what do u call a tank which is not even comparable to T-72, Yes Al-khalid Indeed. A moving $hit?


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## flaming arrow

LCA Tejas said:


> yes this peace of Junk has started moving. Moving really well indeed, hope u dont have any problem with that, have u??



Yaar why will he have any problems??? He can take out ARJUN with just a bicycle mounted klashnikov


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## LCA Tejas

flaming arrow said:


> Yaar why will he have any problems??? He can take out ARJUN with just a bicycle mounted klashnikov



Oh I see.. Debatable indeed..lol


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## yuvabharat

DRDO is doing good but still arjun is average tank we should modify like tiger tanks lol


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## s6demon

LCA Tejas said:


> yes this peace of Junk has started moving. Moving really well indeed, hope u dont have any problem with that, have u??  but if you call a tank comparable to T-90, I wonder what do u call a tank which is not even comparable to T-72, Yes Al-khalid Indeed. A moving $hit?




sheez, I was just asking. chill!!!


one last question though. how often do you need to change the mule pulling this thing?


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## LCA Tejas

s6demon said:


> sheez, I was just asking. chill!!!
> 
> 
> one last question though. how often do you need to change the mule pulling this thing?



answering your question is always my pleasure.... A a troll has to be dealt with a troll, a question has to be dealt with an answer, I am perfect in both the ways, did what suited the situation.... If you felt it so hard, same did we feel....


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## flaming arrow

s6demon said:


> sheez, I was just asking. chill!!!
> 
> 
> one last question though. how often do you need to change the mule pulling this thing?



NOW HOW CAN WE DO THAT??? PULLING A TANK BY MULE IS SOMETHING MAY BE UR ARMY IS GOOD AT,HOW CAN WE COPY THIS GREAT TECH??? WE RUN IT ON ENGINES I KNOW WE ARE LIGHT YEARS BEHIND COMPARED TO THE PAKISTANI TECH


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## s6demon

flaming arrow said:


> NOW HOW CAN WE DO THAT??? PULLING A TANK BY MULE IS SOMETHING MAY BE UR ARMY IS GOOD AT,HOW CAN WE COPY THIS GREAT TECH??? WE RUN IT ON ENGINES I KNOW WE ARE LIGHT YEARS BEHIND COMPARED TO THE PAKISTANI TECH




I am not saying that India cant make anything good or anything of that sort.


I am just asking, wont the mule get in the way of the main gun??


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## yuvabharat

s6demon said:


> I am not saying that India cant make anything good or anything of that sort.
> 
> 
> I am just asking, wont the mule get in the way of the main gun??



nope not like ur tanks


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## thebrownguy

s6demon said:


> I am not saying that India cant make anything good or anything of that sort.
> 
> 
> I am just asking, wont the mule get in the way of the main gun??



It does, so we put the engines. No wonder all the delays. We do not have genius Engineers like you guys. The mule in way of the gun is a small issue, you guys have managed to get it done using tall creatures like camels along with mules !!! Pakistani tech no doubt is great!!!


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## flaming arrow

s6demon said:


> I am not saying that India cant make anything good or anything of that sort.
> 
> 
> I am just asking, wont the mule get in the way of the main gun??



GUN???? arre yaar it has no gun are you not aware of the poor yindian mettalurgy,we cannot produce one..atleast not till the time we get our hands on the PAKISTANI MADE INDIGENOUS TANK NAMED AL KHALID


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## thebrownguy

flaming arrow said:


> GUN???? arre yaar it has no gun are you not aware of the poor yindian mettalurgy,we cannot produce one..atleast not till the time we get our hands on the PAKISTANI MADE INDIGENOUS TANK NAMED AL KHALID



Man all that technology imagine. How much "Camel Power " BCP , drives it?


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## Hang em High

s6demon said:


> I am not saying that India cant make anything good or anything of that sort.
> 
> 
> I am just asking, wont the mule get in the way of the main gun??



I am no big engineer ... but wouldn't it be prudent to use two mules, that can pull the thing from left and right side


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## thebrownguy

Hang em High said:


> I am no big engineer ... but wouldn't it be prudent to use two mules, that can pull the thing from left and right side



So the secret of AL Khalid is leaked!!!

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## sancho

flaming arrow said:


> sancho ji indigenous euipment increases as a tank is evolved around the year,arjun in its current avatar employs the finest videshi maal on it,iam talking about the best isreali elecronic equipment,When Arjun mk2 enter the arena it will have more indian euipment on it beacuse of the learning experience with the imported gadgets...



Imo, there can't be much we could have learned from, because simply integrating foreign parts without any co-development in it, won't make us better. Also cost can be reduced by numbers of units beeing made, but 124 (especially in terms of tanks) is a poor number and I blame IA for it! 

Be in at Arjun, or LCA, it would have been wise to induct numbers first and upgrade/improve them later, instead of insisting on the MK 2 version of both developments from the start.

My point is, how can we get real experience with the tank, or improve it if only such a small number is operational? Imo, only during operational service, you will find out weakpoints and can improve, or fix them with the next upgrade. But complaining about problems from the start and delaying the whole development and production to get the MK2 version, won't help the forces, nor our industry!
I am not blaming the IA alone, our industry tend to delays and also overestimate their capabilities as we saw in LCA development too, but in other countries it's not going like this.

The German Leopard 2 tank is one of the best tanks in the world, but even they evolved the tank through the years and didn't wait for the improved version.

First Leopard 2 tank:







Actual Leopard 2A6:






And the next upgrade is already under development, Leopard 2A7:





The first order of Leopard 2 tanks was for 380 tanks, the second of improved 2A1 versions was even 750 tanks! 


The Saab Gripen was developed nearly at the same time like LCA, of course they didn't have problems with a financial crisis and sanctions, but they was so smart to develop only those parts alone, that they could develop alone and went with JVs for the rest. We instead wanted to do everything on our own and now, when many things went wrong we search for partners to help us. EADS for weight reduction, Elta for MMR, Snecma for Kaveri engine and we still search for partners to make LCA carrier capable and for an AESA development.
The Gripen in the meantime developed from an interceptor in the A/B versions, over a 4. gen multi role fighter in C/D, to the 4.5 gen Gripen NG version now. 
So if we had gone with Israel for a radar co-development (MMR and AESA later) and with France, or Russia for engine (both reliable partners for us) from the start, couldn't we had LCA MK1 years ago?
And why doesn't IAF start inducting LCA MK1 before? It wasn't underpowered at all:

LCA MK1 - around 6,4t at that time and 85kN with GE 404 - 20IN
Gripen C/D - around 6,8t and 80kN with early version of GE 404
JF 17 B1 - around 6,4t and 83kN with RD 93

Maybe Arjun MK1 lacks behind in some fields of IA expectations and maybe the T90s are better in some areas and more cost-effective, but we still had gone with Arjun in higher numbers to have a common base to improve from.
Same for LCA, maybe it was not as good as expected from IAF at the start and maybe it was only useful as an interceptor, but we could have replaced some Mig 21 yet and could improve it later to MK2 standard too. 

Both was possible, both would have been better way to go, but now both is way too delayed and everybody is already thinking about NG projects like MCA, or futuristic tanks, but you can't move on before these developments are done and they are inducted in numbers!

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## saurabh

sancho said:


> Imo, there can't be much we could have learned from, because simply integrating foreign parts without any co-development in it, won't make us better. Also cost can be reduced by numbers of units beeing made, but 124 (especially in terms of tanks) is a poor number and I blame IA for it!
> 
> Be in at Arjun, or LCA, it would have been wise to induct numbers first and upgrade/improve them later, instead of insisting on the MK 2 version of both developments from the start.
> 
> My point is, how can we get real experience with the tank, or improve it if only such a small number is operational? Imo, only during operational service, you will find out weakpoints and can improve, or fix them with the next upgrade. But complaining about problems from the start and delaying the whole development and production to get the MK2 version, won't help the forces, nor our industry!
> I am not blaming the IA alone, our industry tend to delays and also overestimate their capabilities as we saw in LCA development too, but in other countries it's not going like this.
> 
> The German Leopard 2 tank is one of the best tanks in the world, but even they evolved the tank through the years and didn't wait for the improved version.
> 
> First Leopard 2 tank:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actual Leopard 2A6:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the next upgrade is already under development, Leopard 2A7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first order of Leopard 2 tanks was for 380 tanks, the second of improved 2A1 versions was even 750 tanks!
> 
> 
> The Saab Gripen was developed nearly at the same time like LCA, of course they didn't have problems with a financial crisis and sanctions, but they was so smart to develop only those parts alone, that they could develop alone and went with JVs for the rest. We instead wanted to do everything on our own and now, when many things went wrong we search for partners to help us. EADS for weight reduction, Elta for MMR, Snecma for Kaveri engine and we still search for partners to make LCA carrier capable and for an AESA development.
> The Gripen in the meantime developed from an interceptor in the A/B versions, over a 4. gen multi role fighter in C/D, to the 4.5 gen Gripen NG version now.
> So if we had gone with Israel for a radar co-development (MMR and AESA later) and with France, or Russia for engine (both reliable partners for us) from the start, couldn't we had LCA MK1 years ago?
> And why doesn't IAF start inducting LCA MK1 before? It wasn't underpowered at all:
> 
> LCA MK1 - around 6,4t at that time and 85kN with GE 404 - 20IN
> Gripen C/D - around 6,8t and 80kN with early version of GE 404
> JF 17 B1 - around 6,4t and 83kN with RD 93
> 
> Maybe Arjun MK1 lacks behind in some fields of IA expectations and maybe the T90s are better in some areas and more cost-effective, but we still had gone with Arjun in higher numbers to have a common base to improve from.
> Same for LCA, maybe it was not as good as expected from IAF at the start and maybe it was only useful as an interceptor, but we could have replaced some Mig 21 yet and could improve it later to MK2 standard too.
> 
> Both was possible, both would have been better way to go, but now both is way too delayed and everybody is already thinking about NG projects like MCA, or futuristic tanks, but you can't move on before these developments are done and they are inducted in numbers!



Compare the threat perception by Germans and Sweden with India. They don't need the best they can get, we do. How many countries do you think would have agreed on JVs till 2000, with our weak economy. We had a nuke test in 70's and then 98. If it was not for our booming economy, how many JVs do you expect we would be having?

And are you sure we didn't tried for any help? Cause AFAIK we did, but 98 ruined all those efforts.


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## sancho

saurabh said:


> Compare the threat perception by Germans and Sweden with India. They don't need the best they can get, we do. How many countries do you think would have agreed on JVs till 2000, with our weak economy. We had a nuke test in 70's and then 98. If it was not for our booming economy, how many JVs do you expect we would be having?
> 
> And are you sure we didn't tried for any help? Cause AFAIK we did, but 98 ruined all those efforts.


Mate the Leopard 2 tank was developed in the 70s during cold war, when half of Europe was more that afraid of the 10 000s Russian tanks. So they had to be ready and capable from the beginning too!

Also would LCA MK1 wouldn't be able to do the job it was meant for?
The GE 404 - 20IN engine is integrated, R73 short range missiles was testfired as well as dumb bombs. It was reported that the MMR was ok for A2A modes and that A2G modes was integrated from the Israeli 2032 radar later. As I pointed out in the last post, the T/W ratio was ok too, so the main duty of the LCA, interception, it was ready! 
Why the delays in induction then, why not upgrade radar and more A2G capabilities (that are limited at LCA anyway) later and develop an improved version with lessons learned during operational service, like everybody else does too?
I mentiond the Saab Gripen earlier, but every country exept us is doing it that way. EF tranche 1 was had only A2A capabilities and in T2 some multi role was added, same for the French Rafale in F1 and F2 standard. The early US F16 A/B, that PAF uses too, had also only A2A capabilities and was improved during service in later batches. We instead are testing LCA for years only and just 1, maybe 2 squads of the MK1 will be ordered, but in the meantime the MK2 will be developed. What if we find out other weak points after the first MK1 squad is inducted, is there still time for changes of the MK 2 upgrade? 

It is simply not a logic way to go imo and we can say similar about Arjun development too.

Btw, I said we should have gone with co-developments from the start of the LCA development, way before sanctions and AFAIK neither Russia, France, nor Israel posed sanction on us or?

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## saurabh

sancho said:


> Mate the Leopard 2 tank was developed in the 70s during cold war, when half of Europe was more that afraid of the *10 000s Russian tanks*. So they had to be ready and capable from the beginning too!


Oh yeah, I forgot that!
But you also forgot Germans were experienced tank makers. Leopard 1 was one of the best. While Arjun was just a first attempt. So if German believed that they can evolve L2 afterwards while Indian army placed doubts, nothing wrong with that.



> Also would LCA MK1 wouldn't be able to do the job it was meant for?
> The GE 404 - 20IN engine is integrated, R73 short range missiles was testfired as well as dumb bombs. It was reported that the MMR was ok for A2A modes and that A2G modes was integrated from the Israeli 2032 radar later. As I pointed out in the last post, the T/W ratio was ok too, so the main duty of the LCA, interception, it was ready!
> Why the delays in induction then, why not upgrade radar and more A2G capabilities (that are limited at LCA anyway) later and develop an improved version with lessons learned during operational service, like everybody else does too?
> I mentiond the Saab Gripen earlier, but every country exept us is doing it that way. EF tranche 1 was had only A2A capabilities and in T2 some multi role was added, same for the French Rafale in F1 and F2 standard. The early US F16 A/B, that PAF uses too, had also only A2A capabilities and was improved during service in later batches. We instead are testing LCA for years only and just 1, maybe 2 squads of the MK1 will be ordered, but in the meantime the MK2 will be developed. What if we find out other weak points after the first MK1 squad is inducted, is there still time for changes of the MK 2 upgrade?


I can only make a guess. PAF had no other (better) choice, while USAF doesn't needs multirole FAC, it has plenty for specialized role. European countries already have pretty good planes. They also have extra money to induct a limited capacity plane, or may they inducted due to some other reasons, dont know abou their policy.

About tejas, its indigenous radar was not up to the mark. And DRDO was insistent that they can make it. So it wasn't worth inducting till foreign components like radar, ew suite etc were purchased. After the purchase, IAF has agreed on the induction.



> It is simply not a logic way to go imo and we can say similar about Arjun development too.


About Arjun, its problems are highly debatable, so cant say anything.



> Btw, I said we should have gone with co-developments from the start of the LCA development, way before sanctions and AFAIK neither Russia, France, nor Israel posed sanction on us or?



Because till a few years back, DRDO/HAL were confident that they can do it all, on their own. It hit them pretty late, that they are inexperienced, and could take external help. This was all the problem for not inducting LCA. Cannot blame them for this though.

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## pop_alsa

Problem is not with capabilities of DRDO. They have done better than what anyone else can do, with a penny budget and shitty third-world salaries.

Problem is with systemic corruption(both Armed Forces+MoD) to scuttle domestic defense projects and arrogant media who support imports lobby.

*For example, just look at Indian AWACS project.* Now when all sensors and RADAR is ready for integration(after 10 years of hard work) onto Brazilian Embraer aircraft, suddenly IAF jumped in and said - "we don't want Embraer. we changed our mind now. Please choose a new aircraft."

So, very smartly IAF and MoD has once again delayed one more DRDO project and soon they will kill it.

I mean what the hell? Let DRDO test home-made AWACS RADAR out on Embraer, in air. Then you can change aircraft later. Why delay it more?

By the way, those who accuse DRDO of lagging in AWACS programme are not aware that DRDO's first test of AWACS RADAR happened 10 years back which met a crash due to issues with aircraft.

And, because of not enough budget DRDO didn't have any backup aircraft & RADAR to continue the programme. This is how much our babus are serious about domestic R&D.

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## desisoldier

DRDO is fully capable of producing the Arjun, just that time is our worst enemy and of our concern.


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## pop_alsa

desisoldier said:


> DRDO is fully capable of producing the Arjun, just that time is our worst enemy and of our concern.



And who delays funding,sanctions to DRDO projects? Who change requirements constantly to disrupt project timelines and then blame it on DRDO?

Even Intel chip design programmes slip through years on deadlines, that doesn't mean they kill the R&D programmes and import it from AMD. Rather, they support their teams & fund it more to speed up progress of projects.

"Import" lover Armed forces(Army,IAF specially) and corrupt MoD are our worst enemies.

Why we pay just 3 billion$ over last 20 years to LCA project, because we don't have money and then cry when it face delays due to lack of enough resources to parallelize processes?

And 15Billion$ for 125 imported planes over 10 years?

Why a pony for budget DRDO and expect "world-class" output from them?

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## pop_alsa

saurabh said:


> Because till a few years back, DRDO/HAL were confident that they can do it all, on their own. It hit them pretty late, that they are inexperienced, and could take external help. This was all the problem for not inducting LCA. Cannot blame them for this though.



Wrong.

For 30 years, MoD and Armed forces were living "easy-life" and in comforts of Vodka and they always refused to fund domestic R&D and asked HAL to close their aircraft R&D division in 1960s and HAL had to close it because India refused to fund it and preferred imports from foreign.

When their "import" heaven SovietUnion broke, they suddenly felt a bomb exploded under their as$es and they realized - "oh ****! now, we can't rely on Russian imports. Oh Godd!! HAL, you morons do something, quick !! Build a world-class 4th Generation fighter for me in 5 years, I am dying !!"

And, then they started funding LCA in 1989.

Those morons who refused to fund even a nutbolt in Aviation sector in India for 30 years because they were happy with "Russian" imports, are now accusing HAL,DRDO of "delays" in domestic programmes! wow! A thief is accusing the saints. 

And using these delays as an excuse, today they are taking the country to another imports heaven of "Israel and US".

We are moving from being dustbin of Russia towards dustbin of US & Israel.

China on other hand, fortunately doesn't have such corrupt morons making policies in Beijing. They cleverly bargained hard when importing from Russia and focused on learning from Russian technology and building home R&D base. 

While on other hand, India never focused on funding big R&D projects at home. LCA project always suffered for funds. It got a shitty low 3Billion$ over 20 years. Compare this to how much China invested in their domestic military-industrial Complex.

India focused on just "imports" and blaming china of pirating Russian technology. Truth was that Indian policymakers were happy with Commissions/bribes from foreign weapons companies and were happy in comfort zone, like typical Indian administrators who hates taking tough decisions. And it was too late when they realized that china has outsmarted them in aviation R&D.

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## pop_alsa

It doesn't take brains to import weapons from other countries. What requires brain is making your own because it takes guts and decades long efforts to build the base, and improve upon it.

India clearly lacked any focus on domestic R&D due to its dependence imports from Soviet. It neglected and starved the domestic programmes for 35 years under "Soviet Import" era.

Now, India is entering into another blunder of relying on Israeli and US technology rather than diverting funds in serious manner to domestic programmes. We have entered "Western Import" era now.


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## sancho

saurabh said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot that!
> But you also forgot Germans were experienced tank makers. Leopard 1 was one of the best. While Arjun was just a first attempt. So if German believed that they can evolve L2 afterwards while Indian army placed doubts, nothing wrong with that.



As I said, it's not only the point for Germany, or for those tanks, it's a normal evolution all over the world and I don't see a problem four the nations security if we have still so many Russian tanks in service and order maybe 300 not fully perfect Arjun MK1.
My intention is also not Arjun for T90 (because I also see both in different classes) but imo IA takes a share on the slow evolution/improvement of Arjun too, just as IAF in LCA.



saurabh said:


> About tejas, its indigenous radar was not up to the mark. And DRDO was insistent that they can make it. So it wasn't worth inducting till foreign components like radar, ew suite etc were purchased. After the purchase, IAF has agreed on the induction.



That's what I said, IAF wanted the full capabilities, but these wasn't necessarily needed to replace older Mig 21 in service right? Most of them are pure interceptors with out BVR, or multi role capabilities, so even a limited LCA should be able to replace that capabilities.



saurabh said:


> Because till a few years back, DRDO/HAL were confident that they can do it all, on their own. It hit them pretty late, that they are inexperienced, and could take external help. This was all the problem for not inducting LCA. Cannot blame them for this though.



Again, that's what I said, they overestimated their capabilities and must be blamed for it of course. This kind of delays and failures on key techs are not acceptable!

It was clearly the right decision to go for indigenous developed Arjun and LCA, but we did a lot of mistakes and now we have to fix the problems and get both projects done. But I'm afraid that both will only be delayed more and more.


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## sancho

pop_alsa said:


> It doesn't take brains to import weapons from other countries. What requires brain is making your own because it takes guts and decades long efforts to build the base, and improve upon it.
> 
> India clearly lacked any focus on domestic R&D due to its dependence imports from Soviet. It neglected and starved the domestic programmes for 35 years under "Soviet Import" era.
> 
> Now, India is entering into another blunder of relying on Israeli and US technology rather than diverting funds in serious manner to domestic programmes. We have entered "Western Import" era now.


If it would be like in the past, we would simply buy foreign arms, but that is not the case anymore! We buy mainly those things that we can't develop on our own and are going for more and more co-developments besides that. This will help us to improve much more, then simply invest in indigenous developments and wait till our industry reach the level that the others have since years. 
We don't have the limitations like China has in terms of coops with foreign nations, so we don't have to develop anything on our own, but use this as an advantage and multiple the benefit.


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## saurabh

sancho said:


> As I said, it's not only the point for Germany, or for those tanks, it's a normal evolution all over the world and I don't see a problem four the nations security if we have still so many Russian tanks in service and order maybe 300 not fully perfect Arjun MK1.
> 
> My intention is also not Arjun for T90 (because I also see both in different classes) but imo IA takes a share on the slow evolution/improvement of Arjun too, just as IAF in LCA.



Now when I think about that, may be you are right. Even it would have been better that instead of inducting, Army/IAF would have taken active participation in development.




> That's what I said, IAF wanted the full capabilities, but these wasn't necessarily needed to replace older Mig 21 in service right? Most of them are pure interceptors with out BVR, or multi role capabilities, so even a limited LCA should be able to replace that capabilities.


AFAIK LCA wasn't in condition to be inducted, not even in a limited role. Its radar was really off the mark, too much. Though this I got as hearsay only.



> Again, that's what I said, they overestimated their capabilities and must be blamed for it of course. This kind of delays and failures on key techs are not acceptable!



Its not so easy to say that. They looked at the tech and thought that they could do it. I can say this from personal experience that sometimes a simple tech is hard to reproduce, while with a little help, you can do lot of advancements. It was something new and only after working on it did they understood the complexity. 



> It was clearly the right decision to go for indigenous developed Arjun and LCA, but we did a lot of mistakes and now we have to fix the problems and get both projects done. But I'm afraid that both will only be delayed more and more.


Cant disagree, though I expect a little more positive attitude towards LCA from you


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## ironman

*Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90​*Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST

Indias home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. As the armys tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities. With the trial report still being compiled  it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight  neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the armys senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was  124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the armys fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the armys handful of Arjuns.

The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.

The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjuns demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the armys assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjuns development for decades, If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.

The Arjuns sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun  with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection  be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the armys strike corps for performing a tanks most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

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## Choppers

*Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90​*
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST

Indias home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. *But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.*

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

*The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.*

*The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen,* says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. As the armys tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities. With the trial report still being compiled  it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight  neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the armys senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was  124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the armys fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the armys handful of Arjuns.

*The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.*

The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjuns demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the armys assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjuns development for decades, If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.

The Arjuns sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun  with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection  be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the armys strike corps for performing a tanks most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. I*f the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.*

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

===========================================

*As expected, Arjun goin to Desert.*

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## Choppers

GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAt NEEWS GUYS.

*Congratulations to DRDO. Well done!!!!*


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## Choppers

SELF-DELETE......


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## thebrownguy




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## Indian-Devil

Its really a great news. Really good work by DRDO. Lets Indian Army and MOD officially declare this.
It will be great if Army put Arjun in Strike corps, Then Arjun will be having a real competion and i am dead sure it gona give a big punch to rivals.


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## graphican

Good Luck guys.. Just as you, I am happy to see India going for this machine.

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## ptldM3

Congradulations if it's true but i wouldn't take anything writen by Ajai Shukla seriously. Any idea when the India army is scheduled the make an official statement regarding the trials?

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## Choppers

*"Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible"​*


> I don't think any results of trials have been as closely guarded as the ones of the Arjun tank in the Thar desert straddling this month and the last, and which ended a little over a week ago. And while the trial team's report will only be submitted in the first week of next month, I had a candid chat with an Army officer who was part of one of the trial teams, and I have to admit he's the first Army tankman I've spoken to so far who's admitted that the Army is as much to blame for the Arjun's "situation" (his word) as DRDO. I can't go into everything he said, because he's requested me not to get into the details until the trial report is in, but here's a gist of what he thinks. Remember, these's aren't facts, but a considered assessment of an officer who was part of the latest trial exercise. A lot of what he said was obvious -- stuff that's been guessed at for years, so I'll put what he said on the table -- make what you will of it. Here's a list of some of the things he shared with me:
> 
> "The Arjun performed all its objectives to the full satisfaction of the trial team. I should point out that there was little doubt in our minds at this stage that any major issues would crop up in the platform. The Arjun has reached a level of maturity after several trial rounds, so we were quite confident that we would not encounter any developmental or serious technological issues."
> 
> 
> "In its current form and configuration, I think the Army has already made it very clear that the Arjun cannot be the mainstay of the armoured corps. There are several reasons for this, including some intangibles which everyone is aware of, but to be fair to the Army, there is logic to the argument that the Arjun belongs to a certain design and configuration philosophy that the Army does not want in its future tank. These trials have given deep perspective into where the Arjun fits in our battle order."
> 
> 
> "Although it is not definite at this stage, and may change in the course of the days ahead, several key decision-makers in the Army have in-principle agreed to the suggestion that the Arjun in its present form can occupy four tank regiments. But there is resistance to this idea from the field. *The just concluded trials could support the possibility of a total of four Arjun regiments focused on desert operations.*"
> 
> 
> "The Army should share the blame also for not expediting its requirements for a future main battle tank (FMBT). There have been internal studies for years, but to this day, there is no definite picture of what our FMBT should have, look like or be capable of. So when the people at DRDO blame us for indecision and mid-stream QR changes, they do seem to have a case. As they did with Arjun."
> 
> 
> 
> *"The Army is quite clear. We need to close one chapter and begin another. Call it Mark-2, call it something else. But things need to move forward. It is unhealthy how things have progressed, though I can say in the last three years there appears to be a much greater empathy between the Army and DRDO about how to take things forward. Let's hope it continues."*
> 
> 
> 
> "Admittedly, the trials may not go a long way in resurrecting Arjun as some quarters have been led to believe, but it has been a healthy exercise and the Army is in a strong position now to use the Arjun to the best of its abilities. The tank has been given its due."

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## Peshwa

As has been the trend on this forum, lets wait until a reliable news source confirms before popping the bubbly.....

Nevertheless....I am highly optimistic.....


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## Parashuram1

Congrats to all Indian members on this forum. I think your country is finally starting to emerge into the world of successful arms suppliers. All the best to your defense industries. 

Perhaps India and Switzerland could conduct joint venture designs of small and medium arms in future.

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## Spitfighter

The strike corps are composed primarily of Russian weapons, rations (fuel and such) are thus carried accordingly. From what I understand the main problem with the Arjun is its weight and fuel consumption, basically logistics, so no matter how well the tank performs, it will never comprise a large part of our tank fleet simply due to logistical issues. That said, I'm sure this isn't our last attempt at an indigenous tank. The DRDO has gained invaluable experience, hopefully the next tank works out better.


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## 1nd1a

Choppers said:


> *"Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible"​*



Do you know if they are making MarkII of Arjun?


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## 1nd1a

Parashuram1 said:


> Congrats to all Indian members on this forum. I think your country is finally starting to emerge into the world of successful arms suppliers. All the best to your defense industries.
> 
> Perhaps India and Switzerland could conduct joint venture designs of small and medium arms in future.




We already have JV with number of countries. Good to have another constructive one with you people.....

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## desiman

this must be raw propaganda


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## 1nd1a

graphican said:


> I will be more than happy if India inducts them.



It seems to me that you are very happy with Arjun. I see your comments on couple of forum about them. I am sure it may not be as good as you have, which were imported from Ukrain(however we have T-90, to take care of that). We are trying to get to a place where we can have our own MBT's. I think India will start constructing another one either with name Arjun Mark II or some other name.

I am sure the day will come very soon. Then you may not be as happy as you are friend.


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## Fighter488

*Trials up: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90​*

New Delhi: Indias home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. *A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.*

The trial pitted *one squadron (14 tanks)* of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks' ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

"The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen", says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. "As the army's tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities." With the trial report still being compiled -- it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight -- neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army's senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was -- 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army's fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army's handful of Arjuns.

"The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun's strong performance," an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. "But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age."

The army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjun's demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army's 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army's assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun's development for decades, "If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert."

The Arjun's sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun -- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection -- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army's strike corps for performing a tank's most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.

Source: Business Standard


Trials up: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 -  2010: Defence & Internal Security Special on MSN India


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## Novice09

Peshwa said:


> As has been the trend on this forum, lets wait until a reliable news source confirms before popping the bubbly.....
> 
> Nevertheless....I am highly optimistic.....



Do you think that your childhood friend is more reliable than GoI? I do.

My friend, who is serving in Indian Army and drives T-90, told me that Arjun tank was tested till such extent that even T-90 cannot clear those tests. He was the part of the initial testing team (for Arjun).

From his own sources (in current trials), he came to know that Arjun outperformed T-90 in all sections excluding weight and width. Top brass of army was pissed off by Arjuns performance because now they have to answer the Defense Ministry and GoI. Even the criticizers were shocked with the accuracy and agility of Arjun which is clustered with comfort for crew.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: "Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible"



> The Army should share the blame also for not expediting its requirements for a future main battle tank (FMBT). There have been internal studies for years, but to this day, there is no definite picture of what our FMBT should have, look like or be capable of. So when the people at DRDO blame us for indecision and mid-stream QR changes, they do seem to have a case. As they did with Arjun.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## flaming arrow

CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE WHERE IS THE BEER,THIS WAS COMING IAM VERY HAPPY TO SEE THAT ARJUNHAS FINALLY PROOVED IT WORTH THE TRIAL RESULTS WERE TO COME OUT LIKE THIS,GUYS FAILURES ARE JUST STEPPING STONES IF UR SHOOTINF FR PERFECTION,MAY BE OUR CHINESE AND PAKISTANI FRIENDS SHOULD DROP IN THIER COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE PROVIDED NEWS


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## Mahakaya

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 25th Mar 2010

Indias home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. As the armys tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.

With the trial report still being compiled --- it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight --- neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the armys senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was: 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the armys fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the armys handful of Arjuns.

The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an army officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.

The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjuns demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the armys assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjuns development for decades, If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.

The Arjuns sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun --- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection --- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the armys strike corps for performing a tanks most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say that the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.

Broadsword: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90


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## Mahakaya

One more from Livefist:

I don't think any results of trials have been as closely guarded as the ones of the Arjun tank in the Thar desert straddling this month and the last, and which ended a little over a week ago. And while the trial team's report will only be submitted in the first week of next month, I had a candid chat with an Army officer who was part of one of the trial teams, and I have to admit he's the first Army tankman I've spoken to so far who's admitted that the Army is as much to blame for the Arjun's "situation" (his word) as DRDO. I can't go into everything he said, because he's requested me not to get into the details until the trial report is in, but here's a gist of what he thinks. Remember, these's aren't facts, but a considered assessment of an officer who was part of the latest trial exercise. A lot of what he said was obvious -- stuff that's been guessed at for years, so I'll put what he said on the table -- make what you will of it. Here's a list of some of the things he shared with me:
"The Arjun performed all its objectives to the full satisfaction of the trial team. I should point out that there was little doubt in our minds at this stage that any major issues would crop up in the platform. The Arjun has reached a level of maturity after several trial rounds, so we were quite confident that we would not encounter any developmental or serious technological issues."
"In its current form and configuration, I think the Army has already made it very clear that the Arjun cannot be the mainstay of the armoured corps. There are several reasons for this, including some intangibles which everyone is aware of, but to be fair to the Army, there is logic to the argument that the Arjun belongs to a certain design and configuration philosophy that the Army does not want in its future tank. These trials have given deep perspective into where the Arjun fits in our battle order."
"Although it is not definite at this stage, and may change in the course of the days ahead, several key decision-makers in the Army have in-principle agreed to the suggestion that the Arjun in its present form can occupy four tank regiments. But there is resistance to this idea from the field. The just concluded trials could support the possibility of a total of four Arjun regiments focused on desert operations."
"The Army should share the blame also for not expediting its requirements for a future main battle tank (FMBT). There have been internal studies for years, but to this day, there is no definite picture of what our FMBT should have, look like or be capable of. So when the people at DRDO blame us for indecision and mid-stream QR changes, they do seem to have a case. As they did with Arjun."
"The Army is quite clear. We need to close one chapter and begin another. Call it Mark-2, call it something else. But things need to move forward. It is unhealthy how things have progressed, though I can say in the last three years there appears to be a much greater empathy between the Army and DRDO about how to take things forward. Let's hope it continues."
"Admittedly, the trials may not go a long way in resurrecting Arjun as some quarters have been led to believe, but it has been a healthy exercise and the Army is in a strong position now to use the Arjun to the best of its abilities. The tank has been given its due."


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## Mahakaya

So What do you guys think? A cover up from the ARMY - For sure!

but you think this will increase the number of Arjuns in our inventory?

On the other hand - I remember that two Tank Ex have also been provided to the Military for trials - anyone has any news on that?

Also, do you guys think that these results if publicized by DRDO can help get Arjun some export orders - I believe Columbia was looking @ ARJUN for their MBT.


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## Aslan

.............................................................


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## Mahakaya

So What do you guys think? A cover up from the ARMY - For sure!

but you think this will increase the number of Arjuns in our inventory?

On the other hand - I remember that two Tank Ex have also been provided to the Military for trials - anyone has any news on that?

Also, do you guys think that these results if publicized by DRDO can help get Arjun some export orders - I believe Columbia was looking @ ARJUN for their MBT.


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## Justin Joseph

There is no doubt that the Arjun is one of the best tank in the world. However, it is sad that politicians don't have will to keep wasted interest at bay and induct it in large number.


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## rubyjackass

IA asked for a light tank. Arjun ended up a heavy beast. How would you feel if your father bought you a lorry for a car?


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## rick_000

Its a gr8 news.......cheers DRDO.............keep it up !!


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## Mahakaya

rubyjackass said:


> IA asked for a light tank. Arjun ended up a heavy beast. How would you feel if your father bought you a lorry for a car?



Well I am guessing it would have been guided by the military i.e. their requirements must have been taken into account - so its a screw up from both sides - I believe many other top notch tanks in the world are of that weight - It is more of a concern around the width and the logistics that the Indian Army has to transport Arjun - Which I believe can be solved by acquiring the necessary equipment!

Will be great to have ur thoughts on it!


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## RPK



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## RPK



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## karan.1970

rubyjackass said:


> IA asked for a light tank. Arjun ended up a heavy beast. How would you feel if your father bought you a lorry for a car?



Did they?? I think the existing specs do corresponds to the requiremeents given by IA.. Not too sure of this though


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## RPK



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## prototype

still it is heavy and consumes lot of fuel so i dont think army going for numerous arjun tanks

it will still not preffered by our army,however i am not sure abt arjun mark 2 and tank ex

from the experience gained from arjun it it will not b a problem for drdo to construst world class tanks

however we can look towards export of arjun as columbia had already shown intrest as well as some other countries also


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## BJlaowai

3 threads running concurrently on the same subject. Mods pls merge threads.


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## Justin Joseph

alex mercer said:


> *still it is heavy* and consumes lot of fuel so i dont think army going for numerous arjun tanks
> 
> it will still not preffered by our army,however i am not sure abt arjun mark 2 and tank ex
> 
> from the experience gained from arjun it it will not b a problem for drdo to construst world class tanks
> 
> however we can look towards export of arjun as columbia had already shown intrest as well as some other countries also




It is made *heavy* intentionally. Arjun is of different class altogether.

When they says that they don't have bridge for it, then its silly on their part.

In spite of rejecting it, Why just don't just make bridges for it.

The reality is we have bridges.

And as for world class tank it is world class, in fact it's among one of the best in the world.


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## prototype

3 threads running at same time....i think all indians r feeling elevated here

after so much of criticism from our critics it is really a success for us


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## Indian_Idol

I'm lovin it.. DRDO rockzzzz


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## manish123

Arjun is not going to be exported , pls read my earlier posts before being banned from here, it is superior to merkava, abrams, leopold etc, pls check the location where it is placed ie jaiselmer and surroundings and see where it is wrt pakistan, it is weapon of offense and will be used as such, pakistan is very vulnerable to be cut into two from that positon/axis.


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## flaming arrow

manish123 said:


> Arjun is not going to be exported , pls read my earlier posts before being banned from here, it is superior to merkava, abrams, leopold etc, pls check the location where it is placed ie jaiselmer and surroundings and see where it is wrt pakistan, it is weapon of offense and will be used as such, pakistan is very vulnerable to be cut into two from that positon/axis.



manish budy may be u can repost it here for our benefit,even i had posted how the isrealis were dazzled after seeing its performance in the desert,specially the rifles gun
an if ppl thik that arjun will heavier for bridges to carry may be you should see this
THE ARJUN BLT
[URL=http://img532.imageshack.us/i/0669.jpg/][/URL]


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## Draft

Can anybody tell me which is better: Rifled or Smooth Bore?
What difference will it make in the battlefield?


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## flaming arrow

NOT JUST THIS THE INDIAN ARMY's SARVATRA ASSAULT BRIDGE ALOS ALLOWS ARJUN TANK TO PASS THROUGH IT


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## Mahakaya

flaming arrow said:


> manish budy may be u can repost it here for our benefit,even i had posted how the isrealis were dazzled after seeing its performance in the desert,specially the rifles gun
> an if ppl thik that arjun will heavier for bridges to carry may be you should see this
> THE ARJUN BLT
> [URL=http://img532.imageshack.us/i/0669.jpg/][/URL]



Agree 100% - Why doesn't the Indian army take this into account - I fail to understand this - I mean definitely it has cost implications which I believe is the reason why Arjun is not being considered for more orders - The Arjun has constantly been pit against the T-72s and as a potential replacement for them - This means discarding the T-72s which comprises the chunk of our fleet and spending additional 12 crores on a new tank i.e. Arjun (given an upgrade of T-72 will cost 5 crores per tank)

I think its the cost benefit analysis why the Army has capped the Arjun Order - provided we cannot just discard the T-72s like that and since the Army has ordered 1000 T-90s they can't really justify another order of equally expensive Arjuns as a replacement for T-72s. had we not ordered extra T-90s Arjun would have been a good choice and T-72s could be upgraded. Since we cannot cancel the T-90 orders and getting equal number of Arjuns as the T-72s will burn a hole in the IA pockets is one of the reasons I can think of why Arjun will not see any more orders or probably only another 150 tanks or so.

I think the IA realized the potential of Arjun very late in the game.

I still believe that DRDO should try and pitch this tank in the international market. I am sure we will be able to get quite a few orders.

Members - Your thoughts are welcome!


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## Novice09

Mahakaya said:


> Agree 100% - Why doesn't the Indian army take this into account - I fail to understand this - I mean definitely it has cost implications which I believe is the reason why Arjun is not being considered for more orders - The Arjun has constantly been pit against the T-72s and as a potential replacement for them - This means discarding the T-72s which comprises the chunk of our fleet and spending additional 12 crores on a new tank i.e. Arjun (given an upgrade of T-72 will cost 5 crores per tank)
> 
> I think its the cost benefit analysis why the Army has capped the Arjun Order - provided we cannot just discard the T-72s like that and since the Army has ordered 1000 T-90s they can't really justify another order of equally expensive Arjuns as a replacement for T-72s. had we not ordered extra T-90s Arjun would have been a good choice and T-72s could be upgraded. Since we cannot cancel the T-90 orders and getting equal number of Arjuns as the T-72s will burn a hole in the IA pockets is one of the reasons I can think of why Arjun will not see any more orders or probably only another 150 tanks or so.
> 
> I think the IA realized the potential of Arjun very late in the game.
> 
> I still believe that DRDO should try and pitch this tank in the international market. I am sure we will be able to get quite a few orders.
> 
> Members - Your thoughts are welcome!



When you will get rubles in your swiss bank account, you will advocate t-90. 

hope you got my point of view


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## flaming arrow

well Mahakya u have a point..actually if u ask my opinion i would say that we should upgrdae the exisisting t-72 and make them come up to the t-90 standrads,it can be done as t-90 is nothing new but t-72's upgraded version,this will help our domestic industries which are currently employed in upgrading the t-72 tanks,cancel the t-90 orders and start inducting the ARJUNS,...the amount of testing which has been done on arjun has actalluy helped it come up to these standards,i would say it is one of the best tanks in the current generation,50 arjun tanks per annum is a big number friends,it means one regiment can be inducted every yr...it is time the army accepts it and does what it should have done earlier. i.e inducting more arjuns


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## Mahakaya

Guys a lil off topic - But they are showing the making of "TYPHOON" on THE HISTORY CHANNEL NOW!


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## Mahakaya

COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN BETTER - THE NEXT SHOW IS BUILDING THE ULTIMATE TANK!! ON HISTORY >>> CHALLENGER 2 to start with!


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## chachachoudhary

For those who have not seen this already.


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## chachachoudhary

Continued,

Part 2


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## Hulk

I am still taking the news with pintch of salt but indications are good. I have IA source but he does not talk on phone.


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## manish123

Flaming arrow I will find and post but I basically said that it is useless comparing Arjun with T-90.It can finish leopold, merkava and abrams in half an hour. There are somethings not being told in the public domain but two and two can be put together.First infrastructure is a red herring, we can build ours if ours is not already put in place, then they said that infrastructure on the pakistan side does not support 60 tons tank so cannot be used for offense, that also is a red herring bcause Pakistan army is no fool.They will blow up their bridges whether 50 tons or 60 tons load bearing capacity.Secondly jaiselmer and surrounding areas are pakistans weak points like our chicken neck.Only the very best equipment will be kept there, hence all these talks of desert trials is just to mislead.If we ever go to war pakistan with its obsolete tanks are sitting ducks.The pakistan army knows this very well,hence talks in US are going and we can expect new Gen ATGM's or heavier tanks from US to be supplied to pakistan.Many features of the Arjun have been witheld from the public but Pakistani army Knows all about them.The israeli poster was spot on but did not come back.Lastly 124 is not a number with what u can attack we need faster induction and the max. rate is 50 per/yr. Actually it will be 35-40 knowing Indian defence PSU,s so exports for the next 5-10 years are ruled out. In approximately 3 yrs time a working prototype of mk-2 is going to be ready which would cramp us, so question of exports does not arise we need it in vast nos. and after 500 the MK-2 in vast nos. using the same assembly lines more or less.

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## jbond197

alex mercer said:


> still it is heavy and consumes lot of fuel so i dont think army going for numerous arjun tanks
> 
> it will still not preffered by our army,however i am not sure abt arjun mark 2 and tank ex
> 
> from the experience gained from arjun it it will not b a problem for drdo to construst world class tanks
> 
> however we can look towards export of arjun as columbia had already shown intrest as well as some other countries also



Your post lead me to a question, What is the fuel consumption of Arjun in comparision with other tanks? Any knowledgable person please shed some light on it..

I am really happy after reading this news... I think we are on track and its highly possible that future versions of Arjun will take India's MBT position.


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## Mahakaya

manish123 said:


> Flaming arrow I will find and post but I basically said that



I suggest you please remove this sensitive information if you see fit!

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## manish123

Dont worry nothing is sensitive all this is public domain information and all govts. know this.I personally have no inside knowledge, only my friend google has taught all I know buddy.
As regards fuel efficiency nobody knows the answer and it wont be made public, but Arjun is a huge beast of a weapon and fuel consumption is not a problem at all with such a weapon, however such logics that it consumes more fuel are faulty since firstly we know nothing secondly if fuel is a problem then why have tanks in the first place, why not ride motobikes instead?All we know is that it uses a german engine and germans are supposed to be best in their field.

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## deckingraj

I am so happy to see where Arjun has reached...Interestingly *none of critics have shared their thoughts on this issue...*
My personal view is that we should not induct Arjun in its present form in large numbers......Simply no point in putting so much money on a tank that we would like to replace in next 2 decades(FMBT)....As per our current threat perception(remember if at all war broke out then large scale Tank battles will only happen on our western border). Upgraded T-72 and already ordered T-90 will do the job. 

Though T-90 is a good tank yet has its limitations in deserts so in present scenario Arjun role should be to take care of THAR(both defense and offence)....Look guys we have the infrastructure and proved our expertise in this particular field...I mean if a tank can outclass such a mature platform like T-90 than there is hardly any doubts on its might...Need of the hour is that Army and DRDO should pull their act together and ensure there is no COMMUNICATION GAP betwen supplier and user for out FMBT....With the expertise we have and Israeli collaberation i am sure Arjun MKII would be almost invinsible...


In the mean time we should pitch Arjun for exports...I mean why not make some $$$ if we have such a world class Tank!!!


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## forcetrip

I would again wait till official statements are out .. But definitely a big thumbs up on the preliminary reports.


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## manish123

deckingraj said:


> I am so happy to see where Arjun has reached...Interestingly *none of critics have shared their thoughts on this issue...*
> My personal view is that we should not induct Arjun in its present form in large numbers......Simply no point in putting so much money on a tank that we would like to replace in next 2 decades(FMBT)....As per our current threat perception(remember if at all war broke out then large scale Tank battles will only happen on our western border). Upgraded T-72 and already ordered T-90 will do the job.
> 
> Though T-90 is a good tank yet has its limitations in deserts so in present scenario Arjun role should be to take care of THAR(both defense and offence)....Look guys we have the infrastructure and proved our expertise in this particular field...I mean if a tank can outclass such a mature platform like T-90 than there is hardly any doubts on its might...Need of the hour is that Army and DRDO should pull their act together and ensure there is no COMMUNICATION GAP betwen supplier and user for out FMBT....With the expertise we have and Israeli collaberation i am sure Arjun MKII would be almost invinsible...
> 
> 
> In the mean time we should pitch Arjun for exports...I mean why not make some $$$ if we have such a world class Tank!!!



Because we will die with those dollars if china lands its heavy tanks in pakistan or america either donates or itself fields the abrams in pakistan. Only defence is Arjun.Tinpot 90/72 are firetraps and wars dont announce 3 yrs before happening.Already Pakistan is huddled with U.S as we are writing this and china is always there to make life miserable for us.This money that we spend nobody likes but truth is we desperately need Arjun with america or china landing in pakistan any moment. The geopolitical situation is very bad with americas financial problems and history shows that whenever confronted by this situation america goes to war. Ahmedinajad is saying that real target of america in pakistan is india or china.He might be a nutcase but is president of Iran.When he talks world listens. America is also pressurizing us on kashmir and because of which these Aman Ki asha talks have started. I have link on this if u are interested or google "India shall not lose its grip&#8206;"


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## sancho

saurabh said:


> Cant disagree, though I expect a little more positive attitude towards LCA from you


 Oh my attitude towards LCA is positive (atleast for the air force version), that's why I want to see it in service as soon as possible. Imo, we have all the options to make LCA MK2 a really great fighter, it depends only on the techs and weapons we chose for it. The only problem I have is the way the development went through and all the delays.


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## kallol

Going by some of the comments here my take is the following :

1. Arjun was supposed to be a replacement for T-70. It beats even T-90 but many here argue that Arjun should not be inducted and we should continue with blind T70 & T-90 !!!!. That way LCA should not be inducted and we should continue with Mig-21. I do not think this logic works.

2. In case you need to have a better "next version" we need to go through the total development life cycle through which we would be able to indigenize to the fullest extent and have decisve control over the technology and product. The break even number for this is 500+. Any one who is linked to developing this kind of complex system will know this.

3. The success and failure of any product also depends on the field issues and statistical relaibility analysis of the field data. For this also you need lot of data from field to ensure that the durability and reliability over the predicted life is within army's specifications. Even a old car has to meet the exhaust standard - this is the rule which is applicable for the different parameters of the tank performance also.

4. German technology is supposed to be world's best - even now the engineers vouch for that. So no question of the engine being a fuel guzzler in comparision with peers. Additionally during war, no one bothers about this factor when you have other fuel guzzlers like the fighter aircrafts, ships, etc. So forget this excuse. They have already working with cumins and also have Indian transmission in place.

5. I am sure we have enough engineering capability to design logistics support for 60 t tank. So that cannot be an excuse. 

6. It is naive of us to think that in case needed CVRDE will limit its production to single line !!! If required it can establish 5 lines, even more. So it can produce 250 tanks per year !!! What stops it ?

Let us not underestimate our capability. I have very thorough understanding & knowledge of what we can do.

But yes, I agree that there are vested interests in different quarters which might slow down this. But the reform has been put in place by BJP govt and is being pursued by this govt also. Reform is slow but it is happening. That is why lat 10 years you are seeing lots of changes in the attitude of IA & IAF. Also many products are being "successful"

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## ssheppard

I don't know if someone has already posted this ...


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## sudhir007

*Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible"*

don't think any results of trials have been as closely guarded as the ones of the Arjun tank in the Thar desert straddling this month and the last, and which ended a little over a week ago. And while the trial team's report will only be submitted in the first week of next month, I had a candid chat with an Army officer who was part of one of the trial teams, and I have to admit he's the first Army tankman I've spoken to so far who's admitted that the Army is as much to blame for the Arjun's "situation" (his word) as DRDO. I can't go into everything he said, because he's requested me not to get into the details until the trial report is in, but here's a gist of what he thinks. Remember, these's aren't facts, but a considered assessment of an officer who was part of the latest trial exercise. A lot of what he said was obvious -- stuff that's been guessed at for years, so I'll put what he said on the table -- make what you will of it. Here's a list of some of the things he shared with me:

*
"The Arjun performed all its objectives to the full satisfaction of the trial team. I should point out that there was little doubt in our minds at this stage that any major issues would crop up in the platform. The Arjun has reached a level of maturity after several trial rounds, so we were quite confident that we would not encounter any developmental or serious technological issues."
*
"In its current form and configuration, I think the Army has already made it very clear that the Arjun cannot be the mainstay of the armoured corps. There are several reasons for this, including some intangibles which everyone is aware of, but to be fair to the Army, there is logic to the argument that the Arjun belongs to a certain design and configuration philosophy that the Army does not want in its future tank. These trials have given deep perspective into where the Arjun fits in our battle order."
*
*"Although it is not definite at this stage, and may change in the course of the days ahead, several key decision-makers in the Army have in-principle agreed to the suggestion that the Arjun in its present form can occupy four tank regiments. But there is resistance to this idea from the field. The just concluded trials could support the possibility of a total of four Arjun regiments focused on desert operations."
**
"The Army should share the blame also for not expediting its requirements for a future main battle tank (FMBT). There have been internal studies for years, but to this day, there is no definite picture of what our FMBT should have, look like or be capable of. So when the people at DRDO blame us for indecision and mid-stream QR changes, they do seem to have a case. As they did with Arjun."
*
"The Army is quite clear. We need to close one chapter and begin another. Call it Mark-2, call it something else. But things need to move forward. It is unhealthy how things have progressed, though I can say in the last three years there appears to be a much greater empathy between the Army and DRDO about how to take things forward. Let's hope it continues."
*
"Admittedly, the trials may not go a long way in resurrecting Arjun as some quarters have been led to believe, but it has been a healthy exercise and the Army is in a strong position now to use the Arjun to the best of its abilities. The tank has been given its due."

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/arjun-in-present-form-can-never-be-our.html


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## manish123

RadyLeo said:


> Do you understand why we are so upbeat about Arjun.. Its an underdog who beat all odds and finally prevailed over the goliath which is the natasha loving procurement lobby in the IA. None of the media reports that i have come across is claiming that Arjun is the best tank in the world. But never the less its a World calss tank that was build by India and its the best India has. This is a tank that can go head to head with any tank in the "region" any time of the day or night. It means a lot to us and how much ever you ridicule that doesn't change.
> 
> cheers brother.. take a chill pill and allow us to celebrate this momentous achievement



My 2 paisa says it IS the best tank in the world.


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## su-47

manish123 said:


> My 2 paisa says it IS the best tank in the world.



Lets not get carried away bro. It proved it is superior to T-90, but remember T-90 is a tank in a different weight class. It is smaller. 

Calling Arjun the best in the world is going too far.Israel, USA, France, UK and Germany all have more experience developing tanks than us. and their electronics and sub-system industries are more developed, so their tanks will benefit from that. Only way to really find the best would be to pit them aganist each other in several gruelling tests. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Lets just say Arjun is the best tank we have to date. It has taken a very long time to mature, but atleast it was a success.

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## s6demon

LCA Tejas said:


> Well, We are not calling Arjun BEST BEST BEST all of a sudden, only after it successfully proved its metal after competing T-90 which is one among the worlds best tanks, and If Arjun outrun T-90, what should we call it?? should we still call it useless???




You personally are not saying best best best but the two videos posted in this thread use the word "best" and so do a lot of the articles posted here and also some contributors say its the best.

I am not saying call it useless if it out ran T-90. As i said, if you give me constant development news about it. Then, if its true, you wouldnt have to tell me its a good tank, I would already know. 

But I just havent herd any good news about it.Almost every single Indian news source said it was a gigantic failure. Untill this complete 180.


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## s6demon

jagjitnatt said:


> LCA has completed more than 1000 test flights. And this report is from Jan 2009
> http://www.ada.gov.in/Others/Curren...09_Tejas-LCA_/_22_1002-Jan-09_tejas-lca_.html
> 
> And it has never crashed, never failed till date.




Bhai, If all that was true. Why then Indian Airforce still doesnt want it?? Simple question




> Stop trolling. Use BAIDU or anything that suits you and research first.



hahahahaha, that really made me laugh.


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## LCA Tejas

s6demon said:


> You personally are not saying best best best but the two videos posted in this thread use the word "best" and so do a lot of the articles posted here and also some contributors say its the best.
> 
> I am not saying call it useless if it out ran T-90. As i said, if you give me constant development news about it. Then, if its true, you wouldnt have to tell me its a good tank, I would already know.
> 
> But I just havent herd any good news about it.Almost every single Indian news source said it was a gigantic failure. Untill this complete 180.



My job is not to prove an Indian product with a person with Anti-India attitude ..... And Yes, if it out ran T-90, A person with minimum common sense should be capable of drawing an outline about that product without wasting time asking for more development Information to change the thought. 

We are not compelling you to see Arjun as a beast, You can see it as Your old Arjunk... You are used to Going bed thinking that and thus avoiding nightmares, Iam no one to be a pest in your sleep...


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## s6demon

LCA Tejas said:


> My job is not to prove an Indian product with a person with Anti-India attitude .......



I dont have an anti-India attitude. My best friend here in the U.S. is an Indian. No joke.

The only difference is that he isnt delusional. You cant tell me you never read any news that said Arjun was a complete failure. I can even post those news papers here. And to now say its the best tank in the world, hell even the subcontinent, is a JOKE.


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## jagjitnatt

s6demon said:


> Bhai, If all that was true. Why then Indian Airforce still doesnt want it?? Simple question



Its not that IAF doesn't want it. IAF wants it badly. But there are standards that need to be met. And IAF doesn't want another Mig21 type problem.

The specs for LCA are high up there equivalent to the best 4th gen aircrafts. IAF will get clearance this year and by 2012 you'll see in service. If it wasn't for the engine, it would have been inducted already.


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## ptldM3

I don't know if any one knows but this news is from a blogger by the name of Shukula (he's not credible). Some people are already saying the Arjun is better than Abrams, Merkava ect and although i do think it's a very capable tank i also think people need to calm down and wait for an official anouncement before coming to conclusions. Just a warning, the trolls are going to have a feild day with this thread if the Arjun is rejected.

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## LCA Tejas

s6demon said:


> I dont have an anti-India attitude. My best friend here in the U.S. is an Indian. No joke.
> 
> The only difference is that he isnt delusional. You cant tell me you never read any news that said Arjun was a complete failure. I can even post those news papers here. And to now say its the best tank in the world, hell even the subcontinent, is a JOKE.



Man, Havent you ever seen someone rectifying the mistakes, or arent u a person with that kind of attitude??? the mistakes have been set straight, Do u think that once the mistakes have been found DRDO would be still Clinging on to it???


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## LCA Tejas

ptldM3 said:


> I don't know if any one knows but this news is from a blogger by the name of Shukula (he's not credible). Some people are already saying the Arjun is better than Abrams, Merkava ect and although i do think it's a very capable tank i also think people need to calm down and wait for an official anouncement before coming to conclusions. Just a warning, the trolls are going to have a feild day with this thread if the Arjun is rejected.



There is no doubt about the Arjun being rejected by the army,Arjun cannot be transported so easily in Rail.... And Its not stealthy no matter by any angle, u fire an Anti tank missile and Its gonna hit arjun... So This Arjun Vs T-90 trial is just a pathway for ArjunMK2, which will be made more stealthy and And More tough. But the DRDO has to make sure that What it developed was good, and Only designing went wrong.


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## Mahakaya

s6demon said:


> Bhai, If all that was true. Why then Indian Airforce still doesnt want it?? Simple question
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahahahaha, that really made me laugh.



IoC by the end of this year and FoC by 2012 which is when the mark 2 comes into production and starts filling the gap. Till now 40 Tejas have already been ordered by the IAF.

Also its not just a 4th gen it is a 4++/4+ gen aircraft with a lot of goodies and advanced features. Considering the plane only started developing in 1990, it took us 20 years to bridge the gap between the HAL Marut and the HAL Tejas 2.5 generation in "Aircraft Terminology" completed in 20 years is not a bad deal at all, specifically when we had so many sanctions on us, otherwise it would have been inducted way earlier - OK if NOT WAY EARLIER then atleast BY atleast 5 years.

Buddy covering 2.5 gens in 20 Years is not a joke we jumped 2.5 generations without the experience of making a 3rd GEN Plane.


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## s6demon

ptldM3 said:


> I don't know if any one knows but this news is from a blogger by the name of Shukula (he's not credible). Some people are already saying the Arjun is better than Abrams, Merkava ect and although i do think it's a very capable tank i also think people need to calm down and wait for an official anouncement before coming to conclusions. Just a warning, the trolls are going to have a feild day with this thread if the Arjun is rejected.



Finally a voice of reason.  And the news source is a blogger.


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## ssheppard

s6demon said:


> Finally a voice of reason.  And the news source is a blogger.



This particular blogger is a well known Defence journalist ...who works with Business Standard India....a leading business daily....not a tom, dick and harry.

Same article has been published in Business Standard edition: 

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90/389650/

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## ptldM3

s6demon said:


> Finally a voice of reason.  And the news source is a blogger.



I think the Indians should be pround of the Arjun and i do beleive it has what it takes to win the deal; however, most people fail to understand that the news is not credible, nor is it official. I think it's nice that the Arjun has reportedly performed well but i think everyone should wait for official news before declairing the Arjun the mbt of the Indian army.

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## flaming arrow

s6demon said:


> Finally a voice of reason.  And the news source is a blogger.



for ur kind information s6dude Mr,Ajay shula is an ex-Indian Army colonel,and one of the most respected defence journo's.that should be credible enough for you.he himself was a Arjun hater in the very beggining but things finally changed when he saw the changes,ARJUN has not become successful in a day it has taken years of hard work added with failures constant mockery of drdo and motivation to overcome them all,and finally deliver a product which is world class,if u think that other tanks are better then arjun why dint u inducted them in your armoured regiments,if iam not wrong dint the American offered you abraham's....u did not induct them why beacuse it failed the norms set by PA,almost every pakistani has been critising indian indigenous products,aakash was one of them,whn IAF ordered for 750 of these missile i did not see any any pakistani coming and commenting how come a failed product became successful just in a day..grow up and act and talk rationally,when arjun failed a certain aspect we said that it needs improvement,we continued working,may be you should enlighten us all here about how pakistani army now plans to counter us,using thier machines throw some light on ur al khalid i would love to learn about its system tell what all beating its armour has taken,what all input goes in it?? and then we can discuss and see which machine and it crew will survive..avoid making it a INDIA VS PAKISTAN THREAD,lets make this discussion more valid..

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## Mahakaya

ptldM3 said:


> I think the Indians should be pround of the Arjun and i do beleive it has what it takes to win the deal; however, most people fail to understand that the news is not credible, nor is it official. I think it's nice that the Arjun has reportedly performed well but i think everyone should wait for official news before declairing the Arjun the mbt of the Indian army.



Arjun, will not be the MBT of the Indian Army - That is final. I have cited one of the possible reasons in my previous post in this thread. The order and deliveries of 1000 T90s are already in place and India will most likely not cancel it.

Arjun has always been pitched as a potential replacement for T-72 which can be upgraded at a cost of 5 crores and in that scenario if the IA does go ahead with discarding the T-72s and going with Arjun it will cost them 12 crores more per tank which is not feasible.

All in all we can see atleast 2 more regiments of arjun as stated by another article. This might still be speculation and we may see more or less than that number. SO I believe waiting for the results will be more appropriate.

In the end the fact remains that Arjun is one of the best tanks in the world and it is not a failure as claimed by many on this and other forums.


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## prototype

yes definitly we shold wait for the official news

but the other way around i dont think arjun is better than t-90

the army said it only wants to cheak the ability of the tank in desert conditions against t-90 were it fared better,as it is rumoured

t-90 is lighter than arjun and also faster than it
arjun does not have any stealth feature

though i am highly optimistic about tank ex
it will definitly clicks


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## ptldM3

ssheppard said:


> This particular blogger is a well known Defence journalist ...who works with Business Standard India....a leading business daily....not a tom, dick and harry.
> 
> Same article has been published in Business Standard edition:
> 
> Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90




He's fishy, he has done second and third person interviews and he has also made mistakes in the past; for instance, people were complaining that he reported the rcs of the flanker incorectly and he's the guy that started that stupid rumor about the pak-fa having a 0.5 rcs becuase he claims he interviewed a guy who knew a guy that said so. The unstealthy SU-47 with conards, fsw, conventional intakes, conventional nose, and vertical stabs was able to achieive a rcs of just 0.3, and Shukula claims the stealthy pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, so how does an un-stealthy design have a smaller rcs than an actual stealth aircraft? I don't know but Shukula published that crap.


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## ssheppard

ptldM3 said:


> He's fishy, he has done second and third person interviews and he has also made mistakes in the past; for instance, people were complaining that he reported the rcs of the flanker incorectly and he's the guy that started that stupid rumor about the pak-fa having a 0.5 rcs becuase he claims he interviewed a guy who knew a guy that said so. The unstealthy SU-47 with conards, fsw, conventional intakes, conventional nose, and vertical stabs was able to achieive a rcs of just 0.3, and Shukula claims the stealthy pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how does an unstaelthy design have a smaller rcs than an actual stealth aircraft? I don't know but Shukula published that crap.



Its crap till the time its on the blog...the moment it comes to a respected newspaper...things are different..a lot of validation is done to a report before its published on the news paper.... otherwise there is a possibility of a backlash from Defence forces.


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## flaming arrow

Development is a continuous effort and Arjun Tank will be following the same in future. Since there are advantages of product improvements, rather than starting all over again, the Arjun MBT development will be periodic improvements as in the case of the worldwide MBTs. Current design of the Arjun Tanks has been frozen to enable production. Arjun Tank in the next phase will see comparatively major changes. It could be called as Futuristic MBT.

As the worldwide MBTs are getting network warfare friendly, Arjun MBT will have a logical improvement via a Battle Field Management System (BFMS). BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAVs too.

The BFMS will give the geographical location of the terrain, location of our own troops, location of enemy targets, illuminate targets, help navigation, display the health of tanks, status of ammunition holding in the tank, fuel stock etc.

As the imaging technology improves, Arjun MBT will feature an Auto Tracker. The auto tracker is a system based on image processing. As the gunner sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis takes place. When the target moves, the Arjun Tank gun and the sight gets aligned with the target and move automatically keeping the target in focus. This is particularly good in cross country, when target is moving, Arjun Tank might go through bumps or twists or turns for maneuvering, but the auto tracker will not loose the sight of the target. In normal cases with T-55 and T-72, when the tanks try to negotiate an undulation or try a defensive move, the tank commander cupola is moving to acquire the target; the guns go off target. There is a crew disorientation that takes place in such conditions and the crew ends up pointing target at opposite direction. T-90S too has similar issues but is much better than the T-72 in this case. Another aspect is, the Arjun MBT turret is a heavy mass of approximately 16- 20 tons and gun mass is about approximately 2 tons. To stabilize the turret and gun is a difficult task. Currently Arjun Tank uses something called director mode .The top mirror of the gunner sight of Arjun Tank is independently stabilized. A computer evaluates the elevation of both top mirror and the gun as well as the angle of the turret. There is a continuous feeding of these parameters into the computer; the computer gives electronic instructions to the gun control system. Hence the Arjun Tank gunner sight is in the middle of the target even in the cross country environment. If momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit does not open and the gunner is not able to fire. Whether Arjun MBT is static, target is static or Arjun MBT is static, target is moving or Arjun MBT is moving, target is static or both Arjun MBT and target are moving; The Arjun Tank firing accuracy remains more or less the same, and achieves a very high level of accuracy.

Defensive aid like Shotra system for Arjun Tank is getting developed. An 81mm Anti-laser and Anti-thermal Screening Smoke Grenade is also going to be featured.

The Lahat missiles laser designator module will be integrated into fire control computer.

There will not be any revolutionary physical changes on the Arjun MBT platform.

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## Mahakaya

ptldM3 said:


> He's fishy, he has done second and third person interviews and he has also made mistakes in the past; for instance, people were complaining that he reported the rcs of the flanker incorectly and he's the guy that started that stupid rumor about the pak-fa having a 0.5 rcs becuase he claims he interviewed a guy who knew a guy that said so. The unstealthy SU-47 with conards, fsw, conventional intakes, conventional nose, and vertical stabs was able to achieive a rcs of just 0.3, and Shukula claims the stealthy pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, so how does an un-stealthy design have a smaller rcs than an actual stealth aircraft? I don't know but Shukula published that crap.



Buddy - the .5 RCS was mentioned by the Russian Prime Minister or President. It was all over the news. I understand your point though, it could be that this guy might not be as unbiased as everyone thinks him to be but then he does come out with information which can be labelled as "90&#37; CORRECT".

Lets wait for the official news I believe. But still if we go by his word and your and mine understanding of his posts then I think its best to say that Arjun is at least comparable to the T-90 and if that is the case then we can deduce that it is most definitely better than T-72.

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## flaming arrow

lets see what makes the arjun a lethal platform in its current avatar: 
current arjun mk1 has a combat radio net ie an encrypted frequency hopping radio based battle managment system with the help of which arjun tanks can actaully talk to each other,the mk2 version will give it a more potent hunter killer capability as the squad of arjun will be able to share information and the status of thier tanks amonst themself,not just this they will be able to take the feed from UAV's also..this is a network system at its best. 
the first kill probability of arjun is alredy above 90% and this is a very well established fact 
LAHAT Missile gives it a killing punch it can destroy any oponent from a maximum of 8 km

best indian and isreali electronic input goes in arjun,electronics equipment which can detect mines

THE T-72 uses ERA tiles which were actually made for arjun by DRDO..the abhay ICV uses the kanchan armour

ARJUN had taken direct hit from t-90(ap round) and passed,if one wants kill this beast you will have to destroy its track or pray that the crew somehow swtiches off its electronics or hit it with something like a milan from less ten 200 mtrs repeatedly.How can i say all this!! well these are the words of the officers who operate it,you all must be remembering a third party was called in to evaluate ARJUN,the party was isreali.and they had gone back home stunned after witnessing ARJUNS performance..Arjun uses certain electronics that are onboard the isreali Merkeva AND Abrhams tanks,used for detection of mines, the army wants a mix of both tank now.thermal imagner of the arjun tank was something which gives it a cut above,the ergonomics inside the tank is also very good crew comfort is such taht even a russian operator would shed tears of joy...........thier is a self diagnsotic system which tells you if the arjun is well or not,not just this it tells you about the problem area too.this kind of tech is currently used in abrahams and merkeva 4,the main gun of arjun beats merkeva anyday,these are just not my words its what the isrealis had to say who are working on it according to then Arjun's rifled gun is an accidentle find by us.Arjun passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds, it passed fragmented top attack munitions,guys there is alot more then what meets the eye,

IA will have to eat their words and GoI will believe no nonsense now there has to be an accountibilty for all this now


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## flaming arrow



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## ptldM3

Mahakaya said:


> Buddy - *the .5 RCS was mentioned by the Russian Prime Minister or President*. It was all over the news. I understand your point though, it could be that this guy might not be as unbiased as everyone thinks him to be but then he does come out with information which can be labelled as "90% CORRECT".
> 
> Lets wait for the official news I believe. But still if we go by his word and your and mine understanding of his posts then I think its best to say that Arjun is at least comparable to the T-90 and if that is the case then we can deduce that it is most definitely better than T-72.



It was neither of them, Shukula claims it was from a "mod", the actual rcs is classified, i also remember when someone reported that the concept pics of the pak-fa with delta wings were "very close to the real thing" they claimed a Sukhoi employee said so, of course we now know that was completely false.


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## Bingo!

General Characteristics of MBT Arjun and T-90S
Battle tank design is an optimization of the three basic characteristics viz. firepower, mobility and protection. All tanks are designed in accordance with the war doctrine of the country and to ensure operation over a range of environmental conditions. Arjun MBT is a state of art tank, developed to suite specific needs of Indian Army. Arjun MBT is on par with contemporary tanks in its class like M1 Abrams, Leopard 2, Leclerc and Challenger II. T-90S is a lighter tank and does not fall in the class of Arjun MBT. T-90S is designed in accordance to specifications of the Russian Army and Russian cold climate. Both Arjun MBT and T-90S can be transported to Indian border areas by rail throughout the National Broad Gauge network.











Arjun MBTs Hydro Pneumatic Suspension system provides a stable weapon platform which enhances the fire on move capability and excellent riding comfort during cross country move. The Indian borders in north and west are very rugged. Arjun MBT has less Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) compared to T-90S. Arjun MBT has better acceleration and maximum road speed due to high peak torque output of the engine coupled with fully automatic transmission not withstanding slightly lower power to weight ratio. Automatic transmission provides neutral turn capability which adds to the maneuverability during shoot and scoot. Arjun MBT features Auxiliary Power Units (APU) which T-90S does not have. APUs provide continuous operation in silent watch mode. It also saves main engine life. Rubberized double pin tracks provide increased life, reduced track noise and better maintainability. Arjun MBTs mission reliability has been proved with 500 kms being covered in 48 hours. Arjun MBT successfully crossed the RAVI River at Lassian without support systems due to lower ground pressure. Trench crossing capability of Arjun MBT is on par with T-90S as Arjun MBT has seven bogie stations compared to six bogie stations of T-90S










Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commanders panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides hunter killer capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.
LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunners Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..
Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500.












Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.
Outcome
Indian Army has not expressed the purpose of this exercise. It can be various reasons like a genuine requirement of validating its GSQR which resulted in creation of a heavy tank or the Indian Army internal rivalry or the pressure from the import lobby to kill the indigenous Arjun MBT project. It will be the test of Indian Armys own integrity as Arjun MBT was made as per the Indian Army General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR), tested by Indian Army and approved for production by Indian Army.

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## sancho

A news that could be interesting in regard of IA too!



> *Russia may unveil new 'super-tank' in summer 2010*
> 
> Russia's new main battle tank (MBT), the T-95, could be exhibited for the first time at an arms show in the Urals Region this summer, the developer and future manufacturer of the tank has said.
> 
> The development of the new tank dubbed "Item 195" began at the Uralvagonzavod design bureau in the early 1990s. Russia will become the first country in the world to have the 5th-generartion MBT if the military commissions the vehicle.
> 
> "The work on the project has been conducted for many years. If the government gives us a 'green light' we will exhibit the tank at the [Russian Expo Arms 2010] arms show in Nizhny Tagil this summer," general director of the Uralvagonzavod plant Oleg Siyenko told RIA Novosti in an exclusive interview.
> 
> "I cannot disclose the characteristics of the tank, but I can assure you that we have met all the requirements put forward by the military," he said.
> 
> According to unofficial sources, the T-95 will feature better firepower, maneuverability, electronics and armor protection than Russia's latest T-90 MBT or comparable foreign models.
> 
> *It will weigh about 55 tons and its speed will increase from 30-50 kph to 50-65 kph* (19-31 mph to 31-40 mph).
> 
> The new tank may be equipped with a 152-mm smoothbore gun capable of firing guided missiles with a range of 6,000-7,000 meters.
> 
> In contrast to existing designs, the gun will be located in a remotely-controlled turret to improve 3-men crew survivability.
> 
> Meanwhile, the T-90 MBT, developed in the 1990s on the basis of the T-72B tank, will be the backbone of the armored units until 2025, according to the Russian military.
> 
> Russia currently produces up to 100 T-90 MBTs annually and plans to have at least 1,500 vehicles in service with the Ground Forces.
> 
> MOSCOW, March 26 (RIA Novosti)



Russia may unveil new 'super-tank' in summer 2010 | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


Although this sounds like an interesting future tank, it normally can't be interesting for IA, because it seems to be pretty much in the class of Arjun, with similar weight!
One of the reasons of IA against Arjun was, that it is to heavy and don't fit to the logistics to deploy tanks as fast as possible around the country, which are aimed on tanks in the T90 class. So even if the T95 would be a hell of a tank, it would face the same problems and IA must take the same cons against it as against Arjun. Will be interesting to see, if their opinion will remain the same, or suddenly change!

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## deckingraj

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## deckingraj

manish123 said:


> Because we will die with those dollars *if china lands its heavy tanks in pakistan or america either donates or itself fields the abrams in pakistan.* Only defence is Arjun.



Please bear with my lack of Knowledge about defence however are you saying that out of blue moon Pakistan will get these heavy tanks, induct them and have there crews get trained on them in no time???? Buddy these are tanks and not toys....Secondly i am not saying that do not induct Arjuns...Induct them but in a number which make sense...

Kickbacks or no kickbacks i have faith in my Army top brass that when they went for T-90 they were satisfied that this tank is good enough for our current threat perceptions...

As far as i know Pakistan MBT is Al-Khalid and seems like they are happy with it. As far as i know its not a joke to change your MBT like this... Believe me i would like to have our Army the best however we need to spend money wisely...The need of the hour is Artillery Guns where our Army suffered the most due to Bofors scandal...

To Conclude : Induct enough Arjuns to protect our areas where T-90 have some limitations...Ensure we have better communication between Army and DRDO and invest heavily on Arjun MKII which is going to be our FMBT....





> Tinpot 90/72 are firetraps


Not sure about this...As far as i know T-90 is a very potent tank...



> and wars dont announce 3 yrs before happening.


You are right...but same is not true with induction of weaponary...It definitely takes lot of time and planning..B/w Arjun is our own tank if need be we can always start the prodcution lines for more tanks in case our adversaries went for better tanks and Arjun is fit enough to counter them...



> Already Pakistan is huddled with U.S as we are writing this and china is always there to make life miserable for us.This money that we spend nobody likes but truth is we desperately need Arjun with america or china landing in pakistan any moment. The geopolitical situation is very bad with americas financial problems and history shows that whenever confronted by this situation america goes to war. Ahmedinajad is saying that real target of america in pakistan is india or china.He might be a nutcase but is president of Iran.When he talks world listens. America is also pressurizing us on kashmir and because of which these Aman Ki asha talks have started. I have link on this if u are interested or google "India shall not lose its grip&#8206;"



No offence but we don't need to be paranoid here....Defence don't work like this...One has to ensure that nation is safe but a poor nation like india cannot afford to be on a high horse and keep ivesting in weapons which are not justified as per our threat perception....I would like to point you to our PM latest remark..."Don't bank on High Growth"...We need to ensure whatever we spend we spend it wisely....Arjun is a great tank ...i don't have iota of doubt in it...however it came pretty late in the game...We have already ordered T-90 on major scale...and want to upgrade out T-72 to T-90 level...Cost per upgrade is 4 crores...Cost per Arjun is 12 crores...In other words for every Arjun we can upgrade 3 T-72...So IMO how much it hurt but truth is Arjun cannot be our MBT in its present form...It newer version should surely be our FMBT


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## Bagee

India's own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5,000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert.
During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the army's 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjun's endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.

The army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun.

The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby.

After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.

Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On June 29, 2006, the commander of the elite 33 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away.

That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun's firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun have been proved beyond doubt."

But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by the then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for "not conducting the trials properly". But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakur's brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.

In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts: "I've spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment) who have been testing the tank I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun.

I said, you've driven this tank and you've driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I've found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank."

With new confidence, the Arjun's developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for "comparative trials", in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the army's T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.

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## Dron.ru

*First video of a new generation tank T-95 we will see this summer.* 



> The main hope for the future, the army, however, imposes on the tank is the next generation, which eventually will replace the troops of former car models and will complement the T-90. The new tank, known as "object 195" and T-95, developed for many years, but detailed information about it still remain secret. Commenting about the T-95, CEO UVZ, where he developed and will be produced this car, said:
> 
> "Work on the project has been going on for many years. We have, unfortunately, today there are some problems with our suppliers of components which have a backlog, both in the quality and level of production. We are working to resolve this problem ourselves - our engineers are developing new sites and aggregates, as for a fundamentally new car, and for the intermediate. If the government allows us, the first sample of the new tank can be represented by the arms salon in Nizhny Tagil in the summer.
> 
> The characteristics of this machine, I can not reveal, however, emphasize that we fully met the technical requirements and fulfilling all the requirements of the military.
> 
> So worth the wait of the summer - and, most likely, you will see a new car."
> 
> If the demonstration of T-95 at the exhibition will be held in Nizhny Tagil, Russia will become the first country which produces public tank fifth generation. And this machine should surpass all their predecessors and competitors.
> 
> Despite the secrecy, some information about the T-95 still breaks out. So, with a high degree of confidence we can assume that the weight machines will be in the area of 55 tons, the tower will be uninhabitable, but as a tank main armament will have 152-mm cannon capable of firing as conventional ammunition and guided missiles.


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## Arik

May be colombia will place orders now.they had requested for info abt the tank .


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## Bagee

having the same weight as that of arjun tank it will be interesting if the army is excited about the t95


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## Dron.ru

flaming arrow said:


> http://img708.imageshack.us/i/arjun1.jpg/



These 4-th generation tanks of their parameters are shoulder to shoulder, differing mainly in the weight category. Interestingly, what the designers of T-95 tank is meant by the fifth generation? There was whether the environment expert consensus on the requirements to be met by the tanks of the fifth generation?


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## blain2

desiman said:


> this must be raw propaganda



The issue, despite the optimistic news, is that transport of these tanks remains a hurdle for the rolling stock and the transportation infrastructure in place. 

The Arjun can be a fantastic tank as per a certain set of specifications, however if it does not meet the basic requirements set forth as a result of observations from past experience in armoured warfare between Pakistan and India, it would have very limited benefit for the IA.

Problems with FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling (all are issues that have cropped up with Arjun in the past), will at one point be rectified after spending money and potentially changing some of the laid down requirements by your general staff. The question to ask at that point is, how many of the basic and core requirements could be sacrificed to get to say that the tank is ready?

Reading through the various articles and also the purported views of an IA officer involved up close, it seems even now, despite the "stellar" performance against the T-90, the tank has found only qualified acceptance, which means that the original raison d'&#234;tre of this vehicle; the MBT of the IA will never be fulfilled.

Had that goal been achieved, IA would have seen this tank being inducted not in the hundreds but potentially in the thousands.

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## saurabh

blain2 said:


> The issue, despite the optimistic news, is that transport of these tanks remains a hurdle for the rolling stock and the transportation infrastructure in place.
> 
> The Arjun can be a fantastic tank as per a certain set of specifications, however if it does not meet the basic requirements set forth as a result of observations from past experience in armoured warfare between Pakistan and India, it would have very limited benefit for the IA.
> 
> Problems with FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling (all are issues that have cropped up with Arjun in the past), will at one point be rectified after spending money and potentially changing some of the laid down requirements by your general staff. The question to ask at that point is, how many of the basic and core requirements could be sacrificed to get to say that the tank is ready?
> 
> Reading through the various articles and also the purported views of an IA officer involved up close, it seems even now, despite the "stellar" performance against the T-90, the tank has found only qualified acceptance, which means that the original raison d'être of this vehicle; the MBT of the IA will never be fulfilled.
> 
> Had that goal been achieved, IA would have seen this tank being inducted not in the hundreds but potentially in the thousands.



If there is still something missing that the army wanted, the blame goes to army. It should have taken active participation in tank development. And if it has, how come the tank lacks anything that they wanted??!!

The biggest problem is, if army starts inducting tank now, they would be outdated before completing their full life. T 90 order are in place. T 72 can be heavily upgraded at an economical price. Both can fulfill the current needs of army. Than why to go for one more tank?


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## AVADI

blain2 said:


> The issue, despite the optimistic news, is that transport of these tanks remains a hurdle for the rolling stock and the transportation infrastructure in place.
> 
> The Arjun can be a fantastic tank as per a certain set of specifications, however if it does not meet the basic requirements set forth as a result of observations from past experience in armoured warfare between Pakistan and India, it would have very limited benefit for the IA.
> 
> Problems with FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling (all are issues that have cropped up with Arjun in the past), will at one point be rectified after spending money and potentially changing some of the laid down requirements by your general staff. The question to ask at that point is, how many of the basic and core requirements could be sacrificed to get to say that the tank is ready?
> 
> Reading through the various articles and also the purported views of an IA officer involved up close, it seems even now, despite the "stellar" performance against the T-90, the tank has found only qualified acceptance, which means that the original raison d'être of this vehicle; the MBT of the IA will never be fulfilled.
> 
> Had that goal been achieved, IA would have seen this tank being inducted not in the hundreds but potentially in the thousands.



Most of the problems such as FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling are now sorted out now the Army cite's Logistics but the bottom line is that the all the requirements were laid out by the army in form of GSQR in the fear that Pakistan might acquire M1's from US.Now the Army doesn't want the thing since the deal never happened.I would dare say Army pretty much fkd up the things.


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## blain2

AVADI said:


> Most of the problems such as FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling are now sorted out now the Army cite's Logistics but the bottom line is that the all the requirements were laid out by the army in form of GSQR in the fear that Pakistan might acquire M1's from US.Now the Army doesn't want the thing since the deal never happened.I would dare say Army pretty much fkd up the things.



Thanks. Pride aside, the tank may be excellent, but for a set of requirements that have changed. 

Also keep in mind that the Arjun program predates any Pakistani interest in the Abrams (that too was shoved down our throats and fortunately for Pakistan, did not materialize). The Abrams was offered to Pakistan around 87-88 time frame. The GSRs for Arjun to evolve into a heavy MBT tank, along the lines of development that was taking place in the NATO armies at the height of cold war, had already happened in the 75-80 time frame, long time before Pakistan considered the Abrams.


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## prithwidw

blain2 said:


> The issue, despite the optimistic news, is that transport of these tanks remains a hurdle for the rolling stock and the transportation infrastructure in place.
> 
> The Arjun can be a fantastic tank as per a certain set of specifications, however if it does not meet the basic requirements set forth as a result of observations from past experience in armoured warfare between Pakistan and India, it would have very limited benefit for the IA.
> 
> Problems with FCS, suspension, propulsion, cooling (all are issues that have cropped up with Arjun in the past), will at one point be rectified after spending money and potentially changing some of the laid down requirements by your general staff. The question to ask at that point is, how many of the basic and core requirements could be sacrificed to get to say that the tank is ready?
> 
> Reading through the various articles and also the purported views of an IA officer involved up close, it seems even now, despite the "stellar" performance against the T-90, the tank has found only qualified acceptance, which means that the original raison d'&#234;tre of this vehicle; the MBT of the IA will never be fulfilled.
> 
> Had that goal been achieved, IA would have seen this tank being inducted not in the hundreds but potentially in the thousands.



I agree. However, you forgot Indian Bureaucracy, which is like a pain in the you know what.

If India sets eyes on some ripe and tasty mangoes, the GoI will order them when just the rotten ones are left.


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## blain2

saurabh said:


> If there is still something missing that the army wanted, the blame goes to army. It should have taken active participation in tank development. And if it has, how come the tank lacks anything that they wanted??!!
> 
> The biggest problem is, if army starts inducting tank now, they would be outdated before completing their full life. T 90 order are in place. T 72 can be heavily upgraded at an economical price. Both can fulfill the current needs of army. Than why to go for one more tank?



Or a case of falling prey to sunk costs and loss aversion. 

A lot had been invested, pulling the plug was going to be a disaster for the DRDO as well as the Army, so both gave it a lifeline...one asking the other what it wanted in the tank, the other not being able to figure out how to employ it and also frustrated by the immense delay in getting it right.


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## saurabh

blain2 said:


> Or a case of falling prey to sunk costs and loss aversion.
> 
> A lot had been invested, pulling the plug was going to be a disaster for the DRDO as well as the Army, so both gave it a lifeline...one asking the other what it wanted in the tank, the other not being able to figure out how to employ it and also frustrated by the immense delay in getting it right.



We can do all kinds of speculations here. And twist the story whichever way we want. Make army the villain or slam DRDO. Or may be draw a balance, putting blame equally on both. But here we are. A perfectly good tank, with no future...

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## AVADI

blain2 said:


> Thanks. Pride aside, the tank may be excellent, but for a set of requirements that have changed.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the Arjun program predates any Pakistani interest in the Abrams (that too was shoved down our throats and fortunately for Pakistan, did not materialize). The Abrams was offered to Pakistan around 87-88 time frame. The GSRs for Arjun to evolve into a heavy MBT tank, along the lines of development that was taking place in the NATO armies at the height of cold war, had already happened in the 75-80 time frame, long time before Pakistan considered the Abrams.



Valid points pls take a look at the foll how the army kept on changing its requirements

The main battle tank MBT-80 which is now called MBT Arjun was conceived by the Indian Army after it realised the futility of its tanks mainly in desert conditions, during the 1971 war.

1972 &#8211; 1975

In October 1970 a symposium was held on the Indian Main Battle Tank (MBT) at Armoured Corps Center and School. It was attended by the representatives from Indian Army General Staff (GS), Defence Research and Development Organisation DRDO), Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) and Department of Defence Production (DODP). The main aim of the symposium was to formulate GSQR for future Indian MBT.

The first draft of Qualitative Requirement (QR) was prepared by Armoured Corps Directorate and discussed with Vice Chief of Army Staff (VCOAS).

The first General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was issued in August 1972 as QR No. 326 for the design and development of MBT. The QR 326 was not exhaustive and with regard to specifications but featured only skeleton specifications.

The design and development of MBT based on GSQR No. 326 was taken up by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE). The initial outlay of Rs. 15.50 Crore was sanctioned vide the Government of India (GOI) letter dated 02 May, 1974. Project Development Certification (PDC) of the project was 10 years from the date of sanction.

The MBT was to be designed around imported engine as the design and development experience to create a tank engine was not available within the time frame of the project. In 1974, DRDO had to take up design and development of a tank engine as Government of India could not import a tank engine because of political and other reasons.

1975 -1980

DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank. Indigenous engine hardware was assembled and motoring test commenced by 1979. Indigenous suspension and transmission hardware was ready for development test. The main 115mm armament was developed and trials were carried out for proof at Balasore ranges. The gun system and fire control system design was configured. One prototype hull in mild steel was fabricated to check the fitment and assembly.

In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions. The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army, chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.

The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were

a)*Increase in width and weight*
b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.

Essentially it meant creation of entirely new design and systems. A sum of Rs. 56.55 Crores was obtained mainly to cater to cater to GSQR changes and price escalation due to inflation/ rise in import costs.

The PDC of the project was revised. The first prototype was to be built by October 1980 and subsequently 12 prototypes were to be developed, one in every 6 months.

The indigenous engine and transmission evaluation on dynamometer was carried out during 1979-81.

1980 &#8211; 1985

As already mentioned that the country had no experience in building an basic internal combustion engine. The tank engine development slipped as this engine was to be made after experimenting with basics of an internal combustion engine. Project of this scale was almost impossible for nascent Indian research laboratories. By this time, the western governments had shown willingness to supply the engines. A decision was taken to import a limited number of engines (also called &#8220;power packs&#8221 from M/S MTU, Germany. For the fitment On Mark 1 (Mk 1) prototypes so as not to let the development schedule of the MBT slip.

Initially MTU supplied a 700hp engine for fitment trials and subsequently supplied 1100hp engine for prototypes. The MTU was also developing a 1400hp engine as per the specifications laid down by CVRDE.

The first prototype of the MBT was developed based on GSQR No. 326 of 1972 and No. 431 of 1982.

The prototype was subjected to limited technical trials by DRDO at Avadi and Jodhpur desert area.

Subsequently, few more prototypes were produced with different configuration by 1985.

In the initial development phase, suspension, running gear and other automotive systems were being evaluated with 1100 hp engine.

1985 &#8211; 1990

There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent. This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued. The changes in GSQR were:

a)More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.
b)Requirement of Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)
c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
d)Integrated Fire Control System based on sight stabilized system with periscopic gunner sight.
e)Thermal Imaging system for gunner&#8217;s main sight for night fighting capabilities.
f)Provision of &#8220;Kanchan Armour&#8221; for enhanced immunity.

In addition following conditions were in the new GSQR:

&#8226;Manufacture of 23 Pre production Series (PPS) Tanks to enable full scale troop trials and after that smooth transfer technology (TOT) to a production agency.
&#8226;Setting of Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV) evaluation center and augmentation of infrastructure facilities.
&#8226;Realistic assessment of technical and user trial.
&#8226;Import of engines for prototypes and PPS.

The revised financial implication because of the new GSQR was Rs. 280.80 Crores which was issued in 1987. The GSQR escalated the cost of materials, stores and the import cost spiraled due to weakening Rupee.

The development of the tank was progressed with reference to the new GSQR. DRDO had to re &#8211; design the structure of chassis/ hull. The turret had to be designed again to cater to improved armour protection and a high power to weight ratio power pack. The MBT now also to feature Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare and protection system, Medium Fording capability, auxiliary power unit (APU), Laser Warning System (LWS) and Global Positioning System (GPS).

The period of 1985 &#8211; 1990 was significant in history of Arjun Tank for the progressive evolution of a number of systems through exhaustive field testing. A total of 12 Arjun Tank prototypes were built in order to prove the design, development and system integration of a number of systems through field testing.

The integration of first prototype with a proper 1400 hp engine was accomplished in 1989. During the automotive trials of the prototypes a total of 20,000 Kilometer run in various terrain. Arjun MBT covered 11000 kilometers in dessert terrain and 1000 kilometers in river bed terrain. The weapon system was also tested by firing 540 FSAPDS and 560 HESH.

1990 &#8211; 1995

The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.

The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.

MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.

The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.

The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and &#8220;bottom line requirements&#8221; were laid down. After the completion of the 1994 trials on MBT Arjun, a presentation was made to the COAS and he laid down &#8220;Imperatives&#8221; in August 1994.

All the additional 9 PPS tanks were handed over to Army progressively and the final handing over of the 9th PPS Tank to Army happened in 1996. The last PPS tank (i.e. XV) incorporating improvements as suggested by the Army and with add on features viz. APU, NBC, Medium Fording Capability was demonstrated to COAS and users at Avadi.

The PPS Tanks delivered to the Army during this period had covered 70,000 kilometers of automotive trials and fired 7000 rounds. The average kilometer run by a PPS tank was 4500 kilometers and 460 rounds fired from each tank.

DRDO addressed the bottom line requirements and imperatives as demanded by the COAS. The overall design of the Arjun Tank was cleared.

1995 &#8211; 2000

A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August &#8211; December 1995 successfully.

The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.

The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.

In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise &#8220;AGNIR.ATI-t.&#8221; (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and &#8220;joint Action Plan&#8221; for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.

The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.

The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.

DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.

The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.

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## Bagee

but why can't army take these tanks if the are looking for joint ventures with Russia in tank of the future god forbid if the t 95 is just another PAK FA after we all know what that aircraft should have been and what it is... I frankly think India can build a modern tank on it's own by now and better than the Russians remember what happened to Iraqi t 72's in gulf war. Russian Armour!!!!!!


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## ptldM3

Bagee said:


> but why can't army take these tanks if the are looking for joint ventures with Russia in tank of the future god forbid if the t 95 is just another PAK FA after we all know what that aircraft should have been and what it is... I frankly think India can build a modern tank on it's own by now and better than the Russians remember what happened to Iraqi t 72's in gulf war. Russian Armour!!!!!!



You have an ill understanding of "Russian armour" firstly most Iraqi tanks were old T-55's and T-54's, the few T-72's they did have were actually not T-72's but kit builds with parts from Poland and Iraq, another factor you fail to see is many tanks were destroyed from the air and lacked night vision capability; moreover, Iraqi tanks used steal core rounds instead of DU rounds and of course one can not dismiss there poor training which imo was Iraq's downfall, and you have no authority to talk about the pak-fa, something you know nothing about, and a reminder just becuase a "blogger" said the Arjun outguned the T-90 doesn't mean it's true or better for that matter.


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## flaming arrow

Bagee said:


> but why can't army take these tanks if the are looking for joint ventures with Russia in tank of the future god forbid if the t 95 is just another PAK FA after we all know what that aircraft should have been and what it is... I frankly think India can build a modern tank on it's own by now and better than the Russians remember what happened to Iraqi t 72's in gulf war. Russian Armour!!!!!!



SEE it will be very biased if we compare the the iraqi armoured regiments vs the americans,there are simply to many factors which were favouring the americans in terms of tech,training and fire power,T -90 is a good tank our war doctrine actuall revolves around the t-90's n t-72's..the purchasing of T-90 was the need of the hour as the paksitanis had gone for t-80 ud's and also Arjun at that point of time was facing many problems which needed to be sorted out..today we have arjun which is a tabk cutomised and tailored made for inside it is a tank which the indian army demanded the norm laid down by DGMF..it s superior then the t-90 in almost all everythng,IT has not seen success just in a day,repeated failures,mockery,complains and what not,actually all these things were a sort of blessing in disguise.
now see INDIAN ARMY has been saying that they now need a futuristic MBT, are they reffering about the T-95???? or any collaboration work??wont the new T-XX NEW NEW CHAIN OF LOGISTICS?? question is if they can support it fr a new tank why not for the ARJUN's...i know officer's who operate the ARJUN,i have asked them about its performance and also about the performance of t-90 they say T90 IS A GOOD TANK but ARJUN IS NOW A LEAGUE APART,no body would want the tank crew of other tank to be cannon fodder in front of it..The blogger about who we are discussing here is himself an ex army officer..may be some of us here should read his older article on arjun,he was a ARJUN HATER,but when he saw things tarnsformation he's stance changed.


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## manish123

flaming arrow said:


> SEE it will be very biased if we compare the the iraqi armoured regiments vs the americans,there are simply to many factors which were favouring the americans in terms of tech,training and fire power,T -90 is a good tank our war doctrine actuall revolves around the t-90's n t-72's..the purchasing of T-90 was the need of the hour as the paksitanis had gone for t-80 ud's and also Arjun at that point of time was facing many problems which needed to be sorted out..today we have arjun which is a tabk cutomised and tailored made for inside it is a tank which the indian army demanded the norm laid down by DGMF..it s superior then the t-90 in almost all everythng,IT has not seen success just in a day,repeated failures,mockery,complains and what not,actually all these things were a sort of blessing in disguise.
> now see INDIAN ARMY has been saying that they now need a futuristic MBT, are they reffering about the T-95???? or any collaboration work??wont the new T-XX NEW NEW CHAIN OF LOGISTICS?? question is if they can support it fr a new tank why not for the ARJUN's...i know officer's who operate the ARJUN,i have asked them about its performance and also about the performance of t-90 they say T90 IS A GOOD TANK but ARJUN IS NOW A LEAGUE APART,no body would want the tank crew of other tank to be cannon fodder in front of it..The blogger about who we are discussing here is himself an ex army officer..may be some of us here should read his older article on arjun,he was a ARJUN HATER,but when he saw things tarnsformation he's stance changed.



Sir this tamasha between DRDO and army is nautanki.Everybody in india knows drdo chief will be out of job in one minute and so will be any army officer.Real power in india is with politicians.Arjun is a very strategic weapon and with help of israel it has become a weapon of offence.Mark my words pakistan will be buying javelin ATGM very soon to counter at the minimum and something more at maximum.American goras are using india threat to get pakistan to do their dirty work in afghanistan


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## flaming arrow

manish123 said:


> Sir this tamasha between DRDO and army is nautanki.Everybody in india knows drdo chief will be out of job in one minute and so will be any army officer.Real power in india is with politicians.Arjun is a very strategic weapon and with help of israel it has become a weapon of offence.Mark my words pakistan will be buying javelin ATGM very soon to counter at the minimum and something more at maximum.American goras are using india threat to get pakistan to do their dirty work in afghanistan



Calm down buddy,its ok,see this is how democracy works,DRDO is an organisation which will work for the requirements of the armesd forces,the ARMY IS THE REAL USER OF THESE WEAPONS PLATFORMS,point to be discussed is that why do want to go fr somethng which is less capable then our current desi maal which is now ready,I SAY THAT T-90 IS THE WORK HORSE WITH T-72'S but will that mean that we would not induct anyother platform superior then it???this time its the army which has to justice,and iam sure they will deliver wait for some more time and let the official report come out,i ave stated before in previous posts that army will be asking for mk2,by the time Arjun mk2 rolls out they would want the additional order of mk1 to finish..so that the manufacturing line can be kept engaged,the hard earned knowlege can not be wasted like anything atleast not when so much moneys and time has been spend.and the ARMY KNOWS THAT NOW


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## leoberetta

The main problem faced by Indian army in Inducting arjun mbts are it overall dimentions and weight..Arjun is a heavy tank with nearly 60 tons fully laden..Indian tanks forces are primarily meant to fight in the western regions of Gujarat and rajasthan and to some extent in kashmir region and the army needs to reinforce all the numerous bridges and roads in the region to support ARjuns weight...also tanks are transported to different location by the Indian railway and the width of arjun meant that it could no longer be transported in normal rail carriages unlike our T-series tank,,,it is only now that the railways are in the process of building compatible carriages to transport arjuns and its progress in not clear...


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## Bagee

ptldM3 said:


> You have an ill understanding of "Russian armour" firstly most Iraqi tanks were old T-55's and T-54's, the few T-72's they did have were actually not T-72's but kit builds with parts from Poland and Iraq, another factor you fail to see is many tanks were destroyed from the air and lacked night vision capability; moreover, Iraqi tanks used steal core rounds instead of DU rounds and of course one can not dismiss there poor training which imo was Iraq's downfall, and you have no authority to talk about the pak-fa, something you know nothing about, and a reminder just becuase a "blogger" said the Arjun outguned the T-90 doesn't mean it's true or better for that matter.


sir with due respect may be yes i don't know much about pak FA but from its outer dimensions it makes me clear if this is fifth gen aircraft then suckhoi 30 mki can be made stealth with little modification the airframe that amount of rcs i wonder if it can be done but clear it doesn't have the thrust vectoring nozzles of the f 22

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## Bagee

what if our top army brass is getting kick backs from the Russians for selecting these tanks as i know t 90 have been exported to very few countries


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## chachachoudhary

leoberetta said:


> The main problem faced by Indian army in Inducting arjun mbts are it overall dimentions and weight..Arjun is a heavy tank with nearly 60 tons fully laden..Indian tanks forces are primarily meant to fight in the western regions of Gujarat and rajasthan and to some extent in kashmir region and the army needs to reinforce all the numerous bridges and roads in the region to support ARjuns weight...also tanks are transported to different location by the Indian railway and the width of arjun meant that it could no longer be transported in normal rail carriages unlike our T-series tank,,,it is only now that the railways are in the process of building compatible carriages to transport arjuns and its progress in not clear...



The arjun that has emerged today is according to the specifications given by army itself. It is not like that army was kept in dark and a tank was developed and then one fine day shown to army and then army says oh!!! good tank, but heavy. Make another one.

A reputed officer having experience in "tanks" was deputed to drdo by army during the entire development phase.

When T-90 was inducted, army faced a lot of problems in everything and had to make necessary changes in its logistics and infrastructure.

Yes, arjun is meant to be deployed in deserts and plains. The transport is not a major problem as it is being made out to be. India has adapted a cold start doctrine and these hardwares are usually stationed in the strategic areas with standard operating procedures fully worked out.

You need to have different tanks for different regions and that is why army has issued an RFI for light tanks for deployment in kashmir and arunachal pradesh.

But, again, if arjun is inducted and proves successful and then drdo comes up with newer advanced variants, our generals will lose their pocket money and life will become dull for them.


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## Goodperson

Draft said:


> Can anybody tell me which is better: Rifled or Smooth Bore?
> What difference will it make in the battlefield?



I will try to give generic answer

Smooth Bore Vs. Rifled Bore

There are several bore options for hunting, including smooth bore or rifled bore. Each bore has unique features and advantages over the other. Review all the features to determine the correct bore for your shooting style.

Early firearms had smooth barrels, and fired projectiles with no significant spin. These projectiles had to have stable shapes, such as finned arrows or spheres, to minimize tumbling during flight. However, spherical bullets do tend to rotate randomly during flight, and the Magnus effect means that even a relatively smooth sphere will curve when rotating on any axis not parallel to the direction of travel (see knuckleball for an example of intentional random tumbling.)

A rifled barrel, having spiral grooves or polygonal rifling, imparts a spin to the projectile which stabilizes it and prevents it from tumbling. This does two things; first, it increases the accuracy of the projectile by eliminating the random drift due to the Magnus effect, and second, it allows a longer, heavier bullet to be fired from the same caliber barrel, increasing range and power (see external ballistics). In the eighteenth century, the standard infantry arm was the smoothbore musket; by the nineteenth century, rifled barrels became the norm, increasing the power and range of the infantry weapon significantly.

* Identification*
1. Rifled bores include rifling in the barrel composed of spiraling lands and grooves. The small grooves can be seen by looking down the barrel of an unloaded gun. Smooth bores do not contain rifling and are typically found in shotguns.
*Function*
2. Rifling is designed to twist the bullet as it travels down the barrel, which helps to stabilize the bullet in flight. Smooth bores do not spin the bullet or projectile and allow the use of pellets or slugs.







*Ammunition*
3. Shotgun manufacturers produce both types of shotgun barrels. Smooth-bore barrels are designed to use with shotgun slugs, rifle slugs or buckshot. Rifled barrels are designed for use with rifled sabots.
*Accuracy*
4. Smooth bores are accurate to approximately seven inches at distances less than 75 yards. Rifled bores provide more accuracy at longer ranges, up to 150 yards or more. 

The first tank with a smoothbore gun was the Soviet T-62, introduced into service in 1961, and today all main battle tanks except for the British Challenger 2 & Indian Arjun MBT support smoothbores.

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## RPK

^^^my avatar............


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## flaming arrow

Arjun tank wins the battle for supremacy: Rediff.com News


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

flaming arrow said:


> Arjun tank wins the battle for supremacy: Rediff.com News




Is this tank een being produced anymore I heard it was scraped or is schedualed to be scraped in faour of a older russian tank? I saw that message poste here on this forum what is going on

One day we see a message that AJ tank is tanked and next moment we get counter press release - there should me more consistency is this the Indian tank or is it still a prototype


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## flaming arrow

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Is this tank een being produced anymore I heard it was scraped or is schedualed to be scraped in faour of a older russian tank? I saw that message poste here on this forum what is going on
> 
> One day we see a message that AJ tank is tanked and next moment we get counter press release - there should me more consistency is this the Indian tank or is it still a prototype



yaar ARJUN TANK HAD ITS SHARE OF PROBLEMS IN THE PAST,BUT NOW DRDO HAS OVERCOME ALL OF THOSE PROBLEMS,THE ARMY WAS HESITANT ABOUT PROCURING MORE ARJUN TANKS SAYING THAT IT HAD PROBLEMS WITH THIS AND THAT,ACTUALLY ITS A TANK WHICHA HAS BEEN MADE SPECIALLY FOR THE INDIAN ARMY REQUIREMENTS LAID DOWN BY DGMF..TO SHOW THAT THE TANK IT BETTER THEN ANYTHING CURRENTLY IN OUR AMRMY'S INVENTORY DRDO PITHCHED ITS MACHINE AGAINST THE T-90,AND THE ARJUN OUTGUNNED AND OUT RAN T-90 IN ALMOST ALL PARAMETERS,MAY BE YOU SHOULD GO DOWN A FEW PAGES N SEE HOW A TANK IT IS,ALSO THIS KIND OF CAMAPARITIVE TRIAL IS ONE OF ITS OWN KIND IT GOES TO SHOW THE CONFIDENCE LEVEL OF DRDO AFTER OVEWR COMMING EVERY OBSTACLE
ITS A LESSON FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN MAKING MOCKERY OF THIS TANK,IT HAS PROOVED ITS WORTH,NOW LETS SEE HOW THE INDIAN ARMY GOES ABOUT IT,DO READ THE PREVIOUS POST ON THIS THREAD TO ENLIGHTEN YOURSELF MORE


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## flaming arrow

Arjun performed better than 'Bhishma' in comparative trials :: Brahmand.com


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## liteon

nothing new. we all have heard this kind of news before....lca, arjun, stealth warship, insas, cryogenic engine; etc...


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## Join

Arjun rocks........ Those who insult , keep on insulting, but the world knows the potential of the tank which has Out gunned one of the world best tank T-90. Hope Army orders around 500 and allow DRDO to take up the project of futuristic MBT


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## RPK

Arjun performed better than 'Bhishma' in comparative trials :: Brahmand.com

NEW DELHI (PTI): The indigenously-built Arjun tanks have performed better than the Russian origin T-90 'Bhishma' in the comparative trials to determine the future main battle tank of the Indian Army.

*The final results of the comparative trials between the two tanks in the Thar desert are expected to be finalised in around a week's time, where the Arjun performed well in all the three tasks that the two tanks had to accomplish, Defence Ministry officials said here.*
For the trials, 14 Arjuna tanks faced an equal number of the T-90s and each squadron was given three tasks, including driving more than 150 km in the deserts, shooting at targets while moving and static mode and to drive through a water channel.

The outcome of the trials will determine the future of the Arjuns and their operational roles in the Army, which has placed orders for only 124 of them, the officials said.

The DRDO, on the other hand, wants the Army to place order for at least 500 tanks, so that it can work on developing the futuristic MBT for the Army.

Former minister of state for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, had said the earlier trials of the Arjun were "rigged" to soot down the possibility of the DRDO getting more orders from the Army.

The Arjun project was approved in 1974 and was supposed to help replace its ageing fleet of T-55 and T-72 tanks but delays in the programme prompted the Army to go in for the Russian T-90s.

The Army has signed contracts worth over Rs 8,000 crores with Russia for supplying 647 T-90s and the Heavy vehicles factory in Avadi will also manufacture 1,000 of these machines under license from Russia, they said.


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## Join

Man Our Arjun has evolved a lot, turned out to be among the best in the world.. I too am surprised by how DRDO developed this, which was once Criticized by the world for its low rate of fire, accuracy,speed, Breakdown problem, DRDO after a few years rectified all of it and challenged the army to Compare Arjun with the best in its arsenal T-90 "Bhishma" which is also among the best in the world...

But the problem with arjun is, its not stealthy... The designing


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## flaming arrow

Join said:


> Man Our Arjun has evolved a lot, turned out to be among the best in the world.. I too am surprised by how DRDO developed this, which was once Criticized by the world for its low rate of fire, accuracy,speed, Breakdown problem, DRDO after a few years rectified all of it and challenged the army to Compare Arjun with the best in its arsenal T-90 "Bhishma" which is also among the best in the world...
> 
> But the problem with arjun is, its not stealthy... The designing



BUDDY e problems have not been rectified in just one day,a lot of diligent work has gone to make it successful,the very concept of trial against a world class tank like the T-90 speaks volumes about the confidence its manufacturers have in thier machine

let army order a good number of mk1 version cz mk2's entry stage is all set and it will not take long fr drdo to roll out the new prototypes nows
latest Defence news blog or website: India to develop a futuristic tank based on Arjun


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## Join

flaming arrow said:


> BUDDY e problems have not been rectified in just one day,a lot of diligent work has gone to make it successful,the very concept of trial against a world class tank like the T-90 speaks volumes about the confidence its manufacturers have in thier machine
> 
> let army order a good number of mk1 version cz mk2's entry stage is all set and it will not take long fr drdo to roll out the new prototypes nows
> latest Defence news blog or website: India to develop a futuristic tank based on Arjun



Yes, the next futuristic MBT will not take much time for DRDO, we have gained experiance in this field by putting forth a Tank which has more caliber than the T-90 in all the fields....

But I would like to thank Russia, for being with us in all the walks of our life, couldnt have advanced in this field without russia.... Their Moral support is of great significance for Us.... Thanks a lot Russia


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## sancho

Join said:


> Man Our Arjun has evolved a lot, turned out to be among the best in the world.. I too am surprised by how DRDO developed this, which was once Criticized by the world for its low rate of fire, accuracy,speed, Breakdown problem, DRDO after a few years rectified all of it and challenged the army to Compare Arjun with the best in its arsenal T-90 "Bhishma" which is also among the best in the world...
> 
> But the problem with arjun is, its not stealthy... The designing


If so, id would be easy to modify the turret and order it in numbers, but it seems that neither stealthy design, nor fire accuracy, nor armour are the problems for IA. Their main reason against it seems to be (at least from what is known before the official report is out) the weight and the logistics that are not suited for Arjun.


Join said:


> Yes, the next futuristic MBT will not take much time for DRDO, we have gained experiance in this field by putting forth a Tank which has more caliber than the T-90 in all the fields....


What kind of experience? Developing a tank ok, but no opertional experience, especially not in these small numbers. The recent article about the trials even said, that IA not even have enough experianced drivers for Arjun to get out its entire capabilities. 
It's the same problem that we face with LCA, a development that is way too delayed, forces that don't induct it in usfull numbers and before these developments are really done, they start dreaming about the next. 

However, if the reports are true and Arjun offers good amour and accuracy, it should at least be used as to upgrade T72 in numbers.


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## AVADI

sancho said:


> If so, id would be easy to modify the turret and order it in numbers, but it seems that neither stealthy design, nor fire accuracy, nor armour are the problems for IA. Their main reason against it seems to be (at least from what is known before the official report is out) the weight and the logistics that are not suited for Arjun.
> 
> What kind of experience? Developing a tank ok, but no opertional experience, especially not in these small numbers. The recent article about the trials even said, that IA not even have enough experianced drivers for Arjun to get out its entire capabilities.
> *It's the same problem that we face with LCA, a development that is way too delayed, forces that don't induct it in usfull numbers and before these developments are really done, they start dreaming about the next.*
> 
> However, if the reports are true and Arjun offers good amour and accuracy, it should at least be used as to upgrade T72 in numbers.



I can see your point the thing is we have to start at some where both in the case of LCA and Arjun these two where the first attempt at the respective fields we cant expect to develop these in reasonable time frame there will be some difficulties but when these things are done the improvement will be quick since the experience is gained.For example look at our missile development when the basic technology is mastered producing new ones are relatively easy.


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## sancho

AVADI said:


> I can see your point the thing is we have to start at some where both in the case of LCA and Arjun these two where the first attempt at the respective fields we cant expect to develop these in reasonable time frame there will be some difficulties but when these things are done the improvement will be quick since the experience is gained.For example look at our missile development when the basic technology is mastered producing new ones are relatively easy.


Might be true, but do we really have mastered the basics? Not sure about Arjun, lets wait for the final results of the trials to see where it still has problems besides the weight and size. For LCA there is no doubt that we are still far away from basics! Not one of the main techs like radar, or engine was, or will be done alone, only with partners. This would be fine if it was planed like that from the beginning, but it wasn't! 
So where are the basics to be confident enough that we can go on for a indigenous 5. gen fighter development?
We will only get such basics and experience with inducting these developments, or at least parts of it (Arjun upgrade for T72) in numbers to operational service. Improve them through the years, learn what could have been done better and then go for futuristic things!

Btw, can anybody tell me the weight of the T72 turret? I read somewhere that te Arjun turret weighs 6t, so how much more would the T72 would weigh with that turret? And more important, what could IA say against this upgrade?


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## letsbefriends

Raje amar said:


> Dont warry guys, Arjun is a very good tank only proble is its weight.
> 
> in the most pasimistic senario IA will induct 250 more Arjun tank which will take another 5 to 7 years for induction & by then either Mark 2 or FMBT will be ordered.



agreed arjun weighs roughly 5.5 tonnes,but look at the other tanks
challenger
abram
leopard
t 99
merkeva
they all r d best around and all weigh around 60 tonnes n above,if the army cant use arjuns in strike formations they can use it in defensive formations..at least 500 tanks will be good.and all for punjab rajasthan n gujarat sectors in defensive positions or to stop counter attack


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## letsbefriends

letsbefriends said:


> agreed arjun weighs roughly 5.5 tonnes,but look at the other tanks
> challenger
> abram
> leopard
> t 99
> merkeva
> they all r d best around and all weigh around 60 tonnes n above,if the army cant use arjuns in strike formations they can use it in defensive formations..at least 500 tanks will be good.and all for punjab rajasthan n gujarat sectors in defensive positions or to stop counter attack



oops my mistake i meant it weighs roughly around58.5 tonnes


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## ironman



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## sancho

ironman said:


>


Wasn't there reports that the TankEx was fielded in the trials too? Would have been interesting to compare its performance to T90 and Arjun, especially as an possible upgrade for T72s.


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## Dash

I dont think Tank Ex was fielded along side the T90 and Arjun. coz thats just in prototype phase and not matured.

Let me search some link.


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## IBRIS

*Army to purchase more Arjun tanks!*







Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 14, 2010, 0:37 IST

New Arjuns will fire anti-tank missiles; have extra armour protection

The success of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) in desert trials last month is generating additional army orders for a tank that is emerging as a notable research and development (R&D) success. Meanwhile, the Arjun is becoming more capable; the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which designed the Arjun, says that all future Arjuns will incorporate major improvements, including the ability to fire missiles.

Business Standard had reported (Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90, March 25, 2010) that the Arjun tank had conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90  the armys current frontline MBT  in trials conducted in early March by the Bikaner-based 180 Armoured Brigade.

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. *But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.*

The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDOs Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that *all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tanks main gun; provide extra protection for the tanks crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjuns commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.

We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005, pointed out Sundaresh. It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHATs designator into the Arjuns fire control system.

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the worlds heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

The ERA will protect the Arjuns crews from enemy missiles. Initially we will fit the same Russian ERA that protects the T-90 and the T-72. But, we will also develop our own indigenous ERA.*

An early order from the army would be crucial, says the DRDO, for continuity in the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai. The current order of 124 Arjuns will occupy the production line until end-2011. For the next order of Arjuns to hit the production line then, the order would have to be placed now. That would allow 18 months for provisioning of components, such as armour sheets and sub-systems that are manufactured by ancillary suppliers. That period also caters for the purchase of foreign systems, eg the engine from MTU, Germany.

*Continuity is vital for quality control, explain officials from HVF Avadi. We have instituted systems for quality control in the current order of Arjuns, which is why they performed so reliably during trials. These systems will wither away if the production line shuts down for lack of orders.

Since the Arjuns assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.*
Army to purchase more Arjun tanks

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## genetic_nomad

excellent news, this coupled with news of T-95's possible cancellation could be a blessing in disguise for the Arjun and future Indian tanks!!
Still waiting on the official army report though, that should clear up quite a few things on the army's future roadmap.


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## AVADI

Damn sweet news.


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## Mauryan

Arjun Vs T-90 

Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Tgts Assigned) No.of Sucessful Hits

B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
Noon T-90 (11) 4
Night time T-90 (15) 7

B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
Noon Arjun (11) 10
Night time Arjun (15) 15 


Crew on the Arjun felt the comfort riding the tank and were pretty much happy continuing the shift for night trials,while a heavily tired T-90 crew insisted a shift change after noon trials.

Arjun consistency and accuracy afterall proved beyond doubt and wide spread criticism.

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## karan.1970

Jai Ho....

There will be obvious accusations of IA being forced into buying more to save face. But hey, who cares when the words are accompanied by the all so familiar wiff of jealousy...


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## Speeder 2

That's a great news!!!

Indian army should order 2000 aryan and dump ALL T-90s.


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## Prometheus

hehehehe.................at last army falls in line.

this shows arjun was that much good that army had no other choice but to get more


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## NSG Commando

Now this shows how good of an MBT is Arjun...... So Now Army is in the Line, Arjun Rocks


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## Novice09

Mauryan said:


> Arjun Vs T-90
> 
> Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Tgts Assigned) No.of Sucessful Hits
> 
> B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
> Noon T-90 (11) 4
> Night time T-90 (15) 7
> 
> B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
> Noon Arjun (11) 10
> Night time Arjun (15) 15
> 
> 
> *Crew on the Arjun felt the comfort riding* the tank and were pretty much happy continuing the shift for night trials,while a *heavily tired T-90 crew* insisted a shift change after noon trials.
> 
> Arjun consistency and accuracy afterall proved beyond doubt and wide spread criticism.



Man believe me I was aware of bolder part because of my friend from IA. I was even aware of that fact the Arjun's gun was more accurate but this data was not available to me 

One more thing which you might not be aware of Arjun was tested to such an extent (during initial trails) that even T90 can't survive those tests. Also, chances of survival are more for Arjun and its crew.

After successful trials in march, TOP BRASS of indian army was looking for excuses to cover all this mess  and if my source is correct, 250 MkI + n number of MkII Arjuns will serve IA. Mr. Antony is highly embarrassed because of IA stand on Arjun and GoI efforts to achieve self reliance in defense sector.

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## genetic_nomad

Mauryan said:


> Arjun Vs T-90
> 
> Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Tgts Assigned) No.of Sucessful Hits
> 
> B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
> Noon T-90 (11) 4
> Night time T-90 (15) 7
> 
> B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
> Noon Arjun (11) 10
> Night time Arjun (15) 15
> 
> 
> Crew on the Arjun felt the comfort riding the tank and were pretty much happy continuing the shift for night trials,while a heavily tired T-90 crew insisted a shift change after noon trials.
> 
> Arjun consistency and accuracy afterall proved beyond doubt and wide spread criticism.



please provide the source


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## BJlaowai

Mauryan said:


> Arjun Vs T-90
> 
> Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Tgts Assigned) No.of Sucessful Hits
> 
> B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
> Noon T-90 (11)  4
> Night time T-90 (15) 7
> 
> B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
> Noon Arjun (11) 10
> Night time Arjun (15) 15
> 
> 
> Crew on the Arjun felt the comfort riding the tank and were pretty much happy continuing the shift for night trials,while a heavily tired T-90 crew insisted a shift change after noon trials.
> 
> Arjun consistency and accuracy afterall proved beyond doubt and wide spread criticism.



LOVELY 

Source please. Thanks.


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## Abi

> VF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year i



If the Indian Army truly believed in the Arjun, this would not be the case. I think they're not impressed by its performance and are trying to save face.


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## NSG Commando

Abi said:


> If the Indian Army truly believed in the Arjun, this would not be the case. I think they're not impressed by its performance and are trying to save face.



Yes, Thank you.... anything else to contribute??


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## genetic_nomad

Abi said:


> If the Indian Army truly believed in the Arjun, this would not be the case. I think they're not impressed by its performance and are trying to save face.



seems like IA had a bit of trust deficit with regards to DRDO, hopefully Arjun will help bridge that gap.


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## Novice09

Abi said:


> If the Indian Army truly believed in the Arjun, this would not be the case. I think they're not impressed by its performance and are trying to save face.



When you compare an indigenous tank by using eyeglasses purchased by paying ruble, such things happens


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## blueoval79

Thats some good news......more cheers for Indian defense Industry.


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## intelarpit

Now This is what I call a wonderful News

Yes DRDO took time....but Results can be clearly seen now......

DRDO Rocks!!


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## ptldM3

Mauryan said:


> Arjun Vs T-90
> 
> Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Tgts Assigned) No.of Sucessful Hits
> 
> B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
> Noon T-90 (11) 4
> Night time T-90 (15) 7
> 
> B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
> Noon Arjun (11) 10
> Night time Arjun (15) 15



Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.


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## genetic_nomad

intelarpit said:


> Now This is what I call a wonderful News
> 
> Yes DRDO took time....but Results can be clearly seen now......
> 
> DRDO Rocks!!



good to be happy but DRDO cannot rest on its laurels, there is much work to be done to further enhance the Arjun. keep in mind Arjun is simply a baby step towards a long road ahead. 
many components are still of foreign origin, and it still weighs a LOT.


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## Raje amar

Grate News Good going DRDO




> The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDOs Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tanks main gun; provide extra protection for the tanks crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjuns commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.
> 
> We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005, pointed out Sundaresh. It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHATs designator into the Arjuns fire control system.
> 
> *The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the worlds heaviest tanks.* But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.



But the bolded part worries me. dont you thing that DRDO should try & reduct the weight of the tank to may be at least 52 tons. its a nightmare for the logistics.

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## genetic_nomad

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



don't take the numbers seriously until we see it on the official report.


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## intelarpit

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



You are forgetting one thing......Tests were carried out in *Desert*........Moreover Army always favored T-90 so there is no chance of being pre decided..... 

BTW I cant find Russian and Indian Flags here?? Any Idea??


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## BJlaowai

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



Looks like the fatigue levels of the tank crew played a big part. T-90 performed quite well in the morning, but the performance fell drastically in afternoon and night. IA has been operating T-90 for quite sometime and T-72 for decades. Hence, the T-90 crew must be quite expereinced guys on the tank. Arjun is brand new and the crew would have relatively less experience.
Arjun has superior ergonomics and comfort facilities for the crew, which enables them to remain in good physical condition and perform well.
This excercise was counducted wholly by the army, and the army was very much tilted towards T-90 and hostile towards Arjun. So, any doubts about the test being rigged to favour Arjun can be laid to rest.

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## intelarpit

genetic_nomad said:


> good to be happy but DRDO cannot rest in its laurels, there is much work to be done to further enhance the Arjun. keep in mind Arjun is simply a baby step towards a long road ahead.
> many components are still of foreign origin, and it still weighs a LOT.



Definitely true....But we are on our way to make quality products which can meet the requirements of our Armed Forces.....There is a lot of room for improvement and there will be....no doubt about that......but this news shows how Indian Products are becoming a success after a long Criticism......

The So called *Arjunk* has finally became a true *Arjun*.....


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## flaming arrow

ooolalalal ...hahah guys whata start to the morning wow..congratulations to everyone hard work of DRDO has finally given us results not to say the tremendous amount of confidence DRDO had in it final product that it crossed even the threshold and went in for comapritive trials..
HOW MANY OF SUCH TRIALS WERE CONDUCTED ELSE WHERE???
Our friends here caled up ARJUN with what not names...and had thier share of laugh,but see whose had the final laugh now DRDO,its a good sign more add on's to ARJUN tank,lahat designator to be added in 6 month and ERA would make it more safer...

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## karan.1970

Abi said:


> If the Indian Army truly believed in the Arjun, this would not be the case. I think they're not impressed by its performance and are trying to save face.



You are right.. The Army brought up on russian hardware has not been able to comprehend that Arjun could out last or out shoot the much ocveted T 90. Going by past record of delays etc by DRDO, I dont blame them. 

Once they took the stand of not going for Arjun, getting off that would have resulted in a loss of face. Hence Arjun had to go thru much more stern tests than what was required to prove a point. If army dodes induct these in larger numbers, despite its earlier resistence, it just goes to show that the product was good enough to move them off their rigid stance


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## flaming arrow

> The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the worlds heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful *1,500-Horse Power* engine easily handles the extra weight



this is new isnt the ARJUN using 1400 HP german engine,their were talks of an 1500 hp indigenous enigine.can soembody throw some light on this..


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## IBRIS

*Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs*
http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/opinion/army/arjun/dissimilarcombat/general-characteristics.jpg


*Mobility performance*
http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/opinion/army/arjun/dissimilarcombat/mobility-performance.jpg


*Fire Power Performance*
http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/opinion/army/arjun/dissimilarcombat/weapon-performance.jpg


*Protection Performance*
http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/opinion/army/arjun/dissimilarcombat/protection-performance.jpg


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## Bang Galore

You know, a lot of us have mocked the DRDO for their "incompetence" in many projects and there is no doubt that they do have a lot to answer for. This however is a moment for all of us who only blame the DRDO to revisit our opinions and our biases because it appears and I stress on appears that the army was in the wrong on this one. That could mean that there is a possibility that they were wrong on a lot of other issues. Need to look closer on all such decisions.

This round goes to DRDO.

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## booo

Nothing succeeds like success.


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## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



I wouldn't be too surprised if its a face saving move. They probably have grade school kids drive T-90.


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## gowthamraj

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



you forget one thing man, t-90s for india is severaly downgraded version, i think that why it lack accuracy like orginal t-90 in russia


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## faithfulguy

I'm certain that Pakistani guys, from the 4 star generals to the guys in here, rejoice over this news. They would rather face 10000 Arjuns than 100 T-90


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## gogbot

fhassan said:


> gogbot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 250 ordered
> 
> 500 planned
> 
> 2000+ MBT's needed before 2020
> 
> Unless we hear of a massive order of T-90's
> 
> There will a few thousand Arjuns
Click to expand...


Well , well how the tables have turned . 
I did not have a solid reply for you when you mocked my words the first time, But now i do.

haha

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also enjoy Arjun pics


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## zeus

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certain that Pakistani guys, from the 4 star generals to the guys in here, rejoice over this news. They would rather face 10000 Arjuns than 100 T-90



there wont be any AL-Khalid left for T-90 to fight for Arjun will take them down

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## faithfulguy

zeus said:


> there wont be any AL-Khalid left for T-90 to fight for Arjun will take them down



Really??? well, if I'm sitting in the Pakistani tank, I would rather face Arjun than a T-90. Are you saying that Indian generals and politicians are so stupid that they would buy 1000 T-90s if they do not think its a tank that is more suitable for their need?


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## Mirza Jatt

faithfulguy said:


> Really??? well, if I'm sitting in the Pakistani tank, I would rather face Arjun than a T-90?



You are not wrong,cause T 90 is belived to be more powerful than Arjun...but latest tests has proven that Arjun is more powerful than the t 90.



> Are you saying that Indian generals and politicians are so stupid that they would buy 1000 T-90s if they do not think its a tank that is more suitable for their need?



They know very well which tank is of how much importance..this is exactly why more Arjuns are being purchased.....If they know that the enemy sitting inside their tank would fear to face T 90 but not Arjun then why would they purchase more Arjun??..think on that !!


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## blueoval79

faithfulguy said:


> Really??? well, if I'm sitting in the Pakistani tank, I would rather face Arjun than a T-90. Are you saying that Indian generals and politicians are so stupid that they would buy 1000 T-90s if they do not think its a tank that is more suitable for their need?



Its good that enemy thinks the way you do.....remember....Patton Tanks....and all that........an excellent example of overconfident aggressor.....plays in India's hands.....add to this the capability to manufacture as many ..without any challenge.....it makes a lot of sense...

Pakistanis would have a way of knowing the T90s by way of an arrangement with Saudi Arabia....but can they learn about Arjun Tank.....No.

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## karan.1970

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certain that Pakistani guys, from the 4 star generals to the guys in here, rejoice over this news. They would rather face 10000 Arjuns than 100 T-90



So what could be better than this.. We are happy as well as our neighbours are happy.. Win Win for all....


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## faithfulguy

Indian Jatt said:


> You are not wrong,cause T 90 is belived to be more powerful than Arjun...but latest tests has proven that Arjun is more powerful than the t 90.
> 
> 
> 
> They know very well which tank is of how much importance..this is exactly why more Arjuns are being purchased.....If they know that the enemy sitting inside their tank would fear to face T 90 but not Arjun then why would they purchase more Arjun??..think on that !!



The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns. 

If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?


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## faithfulguy

karan.1970 said:


> So what could be better than this.. We are happy as well as our neighbours are happy.. Win Win for all....



As I mentioned before, one thing that Pakistanis and Indians can agree on is for India to buy more Arjuns.

Indians: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. National pride.
Pakistanis: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. Victory in the tank battles.


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## karan.1970

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



Test was conducted by the army only so would they rig it against them selves, as they were not very keen on Arjun earlier

The t 90s were bought to fill the time gap as Arjun was badly delayed.. No grave mistakes here..

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## jagjitnatt

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



I can smell something burning..... 

Its the army testing the Tank and you think they will rig their own tank to make them look like idiots???

You and your logic. Masha-allah!

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## blueoval79

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



The test could have also been rigged to make T90 win...as its Army's favorite tank as of now....Plus some Kickbacks.........

T90 as of now are better than the tanks available with our enemy....and Arjun did beat that...so now we have got two tanks that are better than the tanks our enemy has......what say you.

You thought you are the only one who can twist the words ....

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## baker

i think T 90 will be the MBT for indian army , but arjun will be used to replace T 72


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## faithfulguy

blueoval79 said:


> The test could have also been rigged to make T90 win...as its Army's favorite tank as of now....Plus some Kickbacks.........
> 
> T90 as of now are better than the tanks available with our enemy....and Arjun did beat that...so now we have got two tanks that are better than the tanks our enemy has......what say you.
> 
> You thought you are the only one who can twist the words ....



I'm not twisting the words but asking a question

If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?

Just a simple question, not a tough question.


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## kashith

faithfulguy said:


> As I mentioned before, one thing that Pakistanis and Indians can agree on is for India to buy more Arjuns.
> 
> Indians: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. National pride.
> Pakistanis: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. Victory in the tank battles.



well,Al khalid does not has the speed to match the Arjun..Arjuns will be deployed in deserts so speed would matter a lot,even if Al-Khalid or i should say copy of Type-59 does manage to escape,Lahat will take care of it


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## NSG Commando

baker said:


> i think T 90 will be the MBT for indian army , but arjun will be used to replace T 72



No buddy, T-72 is getting upgraded, it will be good to use aswell


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## faithfulguy

baker said:


> i think T 90 will be the MBT for indian army , but arjun will be used to replace T 72



Well, India has over 3000 T-72. If Arjun is slated to replace T-72, than Arjun would become the MBT for Indian army.


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## blueoval79

faithfulguy said:


> I'm not twisting the words but asking a question
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?
> 
> Just a simple question, not a tough question.



Did you understand my post.......

Let me help you.....



T90 is better than the tanks that are available with our enemy>>>>>>and Arjun Beat T90>>>>>>>>>>>so Now we have two tanks that are better than the tanks available with our enemy.........and that is all you need...to win a war......a weapon that is better than the weapon with the enemy.....it may not be the best in the world....it just has to be better than the one with the enemy.....

So Arjun...and T90 are better than the tanks that enemy has......thats precisely what is required.

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## NSG Commando

faithfulguy said:


> I'm not twisting the words but asking a question
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?
> 
> Just a simple question, not a tough question.



Is there any harm is getting more strength?? Why cant we have T-90's and Arjun?? We get 1000 T-90's because the Arjun was delayed, and Now Arjun proved better, that dosent mean we scrap down the contract signed for 1000 T-90's..... 

We can very well have both Arjun and T-90's in our arsenal


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## Mirza Jatt

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns



wait there !! .....do you mean to say that the test was conducted in a manner so that the Arjun comes as a winner ??? 

I think I will leave it just here.I cant tell you what pleases you,but if you continue to think that Arjun is of no use againsta the enemy in the battle,then I dont think I will able to make you understand.
and who is teh winner ,please don tell that..let them face it first !!



> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



No mistake anywhere brother..for you the enemy already fears T 90so its good we have the machine to frighten them...and as for Arjun...just wait and watch


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## faithfulguy

blueoval79 said:


> Did you understand my post.......
> 
> Let me help you.....
> 
> 
> 
> T90 is better than the tanks that are available with out enemy>>>>>>and Arjun Beat T90>>>>>>>>>>>so Now we have two tanks that are better than the tanks available with our enemy.........and that is all you need...to win a war......a weapon that is better than the weapon with the enemy.....it may not be the best in the world....it just has to be better than the one with the enemy.....
> 
> So Arjun...and T90 are better than the tanks that enemy has......thats precisely what is required.



So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.


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## jagjitnatt

faithfulguy said:


> I'm not twisting the words but asking a question
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?
> 
> Just a simple question, not a tough question.



diversifying your arsenal is not a grave mistake last time I checked. Pak has been making such mistakes in the past by relying on the same type of equipment. We have learnt from their mistakes and try to keep multiple tanks from different providers.

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## faithfulguy

NSG Commando said:


> Is there any harm is getting more strength?? Why cant we have T-90's and Arjun?? We get 1000 T-90's because the Arjun was delayed, and Now Arjun proved better, that dosent mean we scrap down the contract signed for 1000 T-90's.....
> 
> We can very well have both Arjun and T-90's in our arsenal



Arjun was capped at 124.. It was regarded as a failure. Now India is buying more... A lot of confusion. So that is why others are doubt the validity of the test.


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## NSG Commando

faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



Hardwork pays buddy, DRDO was criticized by the army itself, Now DRDO challenged the army to conduct trials, Army Did it and had no complaint against the Arjun which outgunned there MBT in each and every battle scenario...


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## kashith

faithfulguy said:


> I'm not twisting the words but asking a question
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?
> 
> Just a simple question, not a tough question.



no ,T-90 were the chosen MBT because Arjun was late because of so extensive testing.T-90 will serve a different role especially in Punjab.where there are plains and not too hot


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## jagjitnatt

faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



on one side you make fun of Arjun that it took *so much of time* to mature and on the other hand you doubt how come it* suddenly *became better than T90.

It took time cause we improved it till the time it didn't come up to the standards of International tanks.

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## blueoval79

faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



I think it will not be cheaper than t90....may be at par as of now.....things will change when more orders come in ...and economy of scale is achieved..........on top of that....Indian money stays in India ...rather than filling Russian Coffers........India Defense industry will become better ....


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## NSG Commando

faithfulguy said:


> Arjun was capped at 124.. It was regarded as a failure. Now India is buying more... A lot of confusion. So that is why others are doubt the validity of the test.



Yes, and when DRDO came through Such criticisms, They worked on it to rectify it... and Why would The Indian army which was criticizing Arjun conduct trials with there most preferred tank T-90, And When Arjun outgunned it The Army cannot do anything as the trials were against the T-90, army has to buy it, or atleast say why they dont want it....

Now hardwork by DRDO paid...


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## kashith

faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



Arjun is more expensive than T-90,close to 4.5 million dollars for each unit


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## blueoval79

kashith said:


> Arjun is more expensive than T-90,close to 4.5 million dollars for each unit



Wow.....thats new....I heard it was around 3.5 or something like that......and that too with limited production ....once the full production starts....and economies of scale are achieved......it will become less costlier.......

Army placed an order for 124 MBT Arjun....for 471.2 Million USD.

And more orders would mean ...prices coming down.

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## karan.1970

And guys, even if it is a little more expensive, its a lot more indegenous than T 90. Which means a larger part of the cost gets ploughed back into India economy. So while it may be more expensive for the Army, it is definitely cheaper for India

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## lhuang

First it was Indians claiming Arjuns were sabotaged, now its a Chinese traitor saying T90s were sabotaged. Oh lordy.

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## ARCHON

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



Tests rigged !!!

army buys tanks from politicians, politicians buy bungalow from that money.!!

Pakistan army wins from arjun !!

Expert review of the tanks!!

What more can u come up with!!


Hey guys are u still talking to this guy and replying??/

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## ARCHON

faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



There are words like improvisation and upgrades in the dictionary .. go check it.


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## RAHUL INDIAN

faithfulguy said:


> As I mentioned before, one thing that Pakistanis and Indians can agree on is for India to buy more Arjuns.
> 
> Indians: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. National pride.
> Pakistanis: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. Victory in the tank battles.



He is a chinese doing propaganda here.....

always saying bad things for india...

now when the trials have been conducted and IT IS WELL KNOWN to anyone on the forum that indian army used to always favour T-90, still Arjun has come out winner...

our chinese friend is unable to DIGEST this coz their own products are no where as close to Arjun... so he is trying to defame Arjun.....



faithfulguy said:


> I'm not twisting the words but asking a question
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?
> 
> Just a simple question, not a tough question.



ok made the mistake.... But T-90 is also very good Tank...so no issues....both are good tanks....and both are better then what our neighbours have...



faithfulguy said:


> So how much is Arjun nowadays? Is it cheaper now that Indian army is ordering more. How come suddenly, Arjun is a better tank than T-90. When T-90 was superior to Arjun.



are u new on this forum..??? 
is it diffficult to undstnd that Arjun didnt get its fair share of admiration and support which it commanded....it was always a good tank but somehow some ppl were not willing to accept...

Finally it BATTLED it out in the desert and win the hearts of the ppl.....and prove its Mettle.....

it is the bid daddy.....beware of it- here comes ARJUN...

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## ao333

People, the weapons, fire control and navigation are Israeli while the engine and tracks are German.

The reason why it's so heavy is because the chassis is made in India. The designers just keep on adding armor because it's the only part of the tank that's indigenous.

Though, I have to commend India for being able to assemble such an unmaneuverable and patent-stricken tank.


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## deesu

birdofprey said:


> Tests rigged !!!
> 
> army buys tanks from politicians, politicians buy bungalow from that money.!!
> 
> Pakistan army wins from arjun !!
> 
> Expert review of the tanks!!
> 
> What more can u come up with!!
> 
> 
> Hey guys are u still talking to this guy and replying??/




It is always better if our enemies under estimate us... they did it once .... hope they will do it again...
Ppl, there is no need to defend arjun... just read the news and get the info.
If the army is purchasing more Arjuns, that means they have a plan, lets leave it at that....

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## lhuang

ao333 said:


> People, the weapons, fire control and navigation are Israeli while the engine and tracks are German.
> 
> The reason why it's so heavy is because the chassis is made in India. The designers just keep on adding armor because it's the only part of the tank that's indigenous.
> 
> Though, I have to commend India for being able to assemble such an unmaneuverable and patent-stricken tank.



Tracks are Indian.

What weapons are Israeli? Other than the LAHAT ATGM.

It's not any heavier than other contemporary tanks. M1A1, T99 etc.

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## flaming arrow

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



MY DEAR FRIEND so now the discussio level has come to this level that your saying that the trial results were rigged were the reports rigged when the THE WHOLE OF INDIA ARMY AND INDIAN MEDIA WERE BLATING ARJUN FOR NOT MEETING PARAMETERS...THE ARMY WAS FORCED TO GO FOR COMPARITIVE TRIALS...DO YOU KNWO THAT THE T-72 M1 WAS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE TRIAL BUT WAS WITHDRWAN AT THE VERY ALST MOMENT....
REASON ARMY KNEW ARJUN WOULD HAVE EATEN IT ALIVE AND IT HAD NO CHANCE IN HELL COMPETING AGAINST IT..

NOW YOU ARE SAYING THE ARMY IS BEING FORCED OHHHH!!! HOW IF THE ARMY WAS TO BE FORCED THEY WOULD HAVE HAD ARJUN IN THIER ARMOURY BUT WAS THAT THE CASE NO!!!!!

OUR ARMY HAS A TASTE FOR BEST OF WHICH IS AVAILABLE IT COULD ME RUSSIE MAAL OR A BETTER INDIGENOUS PRODUCT....

NOW COMING ABOUT YOUR POLITICIANS POINT..
THEN PM OF INDIA MR.HD DEVEGODA UNDERE WHOSE GOVERNMENT THE DEAL WAS SINGED WAS NOT IN FAVOUR FOR THE TANK,BUT THE RUSSIAN ARMS LOBBY COUPLED WITH THE INDIAN MEDIATORS WAS SO STRONG THAT IT WAS SHOWED DOWN OUR THROATS..IAM NOT SAYING T-90 IS NOT A GOOD TANK IT IS BETTER THE AL KHALID AND T-80 UD EVN BETTER THEN UR TYPE 99..
WHEN PAKISTAN HAD FINALISED T-80 UD DEAL THE MOD WAS IN SHOCK BCZ WE HAD NOTHNG AS POTENT LIKE T-80UD TO FIGHT T-72 ARE JUST CANNON FODDER TRUST ME..IT WAS THEN THAT WE WENT FOR THE T-90 AND THA TO IN A VER HAPHAZARD MANNER I HOPE I HAVE MADE A POINT TO YOU

TO ADD MORE THE T-90 PURCHASED WERE NOT EVN RUSSIAN EQUIVALENT,SHOTRA WAS MISSING WHY??? BECAUSE MOD HAD TO REDUCE THE PRICE.....

T-90 IS TANK WHICH HAS BEEN MADE FOR RUSSIAN NEEDS AND INDIAN ARMY HAS ADOPTED IT TO MEET OUR REQUIREMENTS

ARJUN ON THE OTHER HAND IS A TANK CUSTOM MADE FOR THE ARMY ACC.TO GSQR REQUIREMENT..WE LOVE THE T-90 CZ ITS LETHAL BETTER THEN WHAT OUR ADVERSARIES HAVE..BUT WE LOVE ARJU THE MOST CZ ITS OUR BOY AND IT HAS COME OUT VICTORIOUS AFTER FACING MANY FAILURES,HARSH CRITICS AND DENIAL
REGARDS

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## intelarpit

faithfulguy said:


> The test can be rigged to make Arjun win. Therefore, the army is force to buy more Arjuns from the politicians. The winner is the Pakistani arm forces as they would rather face Arjuns.
> 
> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



Some people cannot digest that Tanks can be made without copying and that too better than the copied ones


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## flaming arrow

lhuang said:


> Tracks are Indian.
> 
> What weapons are Israeli? Other than the LAHAT ATGM.
> 
> It's not any heavier than other contemporary tanks. M1A1, T99 etc.



Buddy the LAHAT MISSILE IS cms frm isreal,along with that onboard electronics equipment,like a self diagonostic system,electronics which detect mines have been placed,the only other tank to ave self diagonsotics is the M1A1 ABHRAM(correct me if iam wrong)

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## damiendehorn

We will know if its any good, if other countries buy it. Lets see when its offered whether there are any buyers?


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## lhuang

flaming arrow said:


> Buddy the LAHAT MISSILE IS cms frm isreal,along with that onboard electronics equipment,like a self diagonostic system,electronics which detect mines have been placed,the only other tank to ave self diagonsotics is the M1A1 ABHRAM(correct me if iam wrong)



I said what weapons OTHER THAN LAHAT which comes from Israel...


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## flaming arrow

lhuang said:


> I said what weapons OTHER THAN LAHAT which comes from Israel...



my bad m sorry
well currently its limited to LAHAT only with a stike range of 8 km

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## flaming arrow

lets see what makes the arjun a lethal platform in its current avatar:
current arjun mk1 has a combat radio net ie an encrypted frequency hopping radio based battle managment system with the help of which arjun tanks can actaully talk to each other,the mk2 version will give it a more potent hunter killer capability as the squad of arjun will be able to share information and the status of thier tanks amonst themself,not just this they will be able to take the feed from UAV's also..this is a network system at its best.
the first kill probability of arjun is alredy above 90% and this is a very well established fact
LAHAT Missile gives it a killing punch it can destroy any oponent from a maximum of 8 km

best indian and isreali electronic input goes in arjun,electronics equipment which can detect mines

under development a new ERA 

ARJUN had taken direct hit from t-90(ap round) and passed,if one wants kill this beast you will have to destroy its track or pray that the crew somehow swtiches off its electronics or hit it with something like a milan from less ten 200 mtrs repeatedly.How can i say all this!! well these are the words of the officers who operate it,you all must be remembering a third party was called in to evaluate ARJUN,the party was isreali.and they had gone back home stunned after witnessing ARJUNS performance..Arjun uses certain electronics that are onboard the isreali Merkeva AND Abrhams tanks,used for detection of mines, the army wants a mix of both tank now.thermal imagner of the arjun tank was something which gives it a cut above,the ergonomics inside the tank is also very good crew comfort is such taht even a russian operator would shed tears of joy...........thier is a self diagnsotic system which tells you if the arjun is well or not,not just this it tells you about the problem area too.this kind of tech is currently used in abrahams and merkeva 4,the main gun of arjun beats merkeva anyday,these are just not my words its what the isrealis had to say who are working on it according to then Arjun's rifled gun is an accidentle find by us.Arjun passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds, it passed fragmented top attack munitions,guys there is alot more then what meets the eye,

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## Arjun MBT

this is Indeed a great News, Atlast Arjun has proved its potential and caliber to the Army which was in constant denial to buy this MBT and Interested in T-90 more, Hats off to DRDO, working and challenging the Army to test Arjun with T-90 which is considered one among the best in the world, DRDO knew it was there last chance, and they proved it well, Arjun came out good...

Now There, We can proudly say , Arjun Is here


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## flaming arrow

damiendehorn said:


> We will know if its any good, if other countries buy it. Lets see when its offered whether there are any buyers?



Why So much of hurry my dear friend..since when exporting has become a norm for prooving a system..Things have just started to roll in favour of Arjun,it is difficult for many to understand and believe that Arjun is better then t-90,and it is obvious witha very shoddy past,but the past is bygone now we are talking present if the army say's we want more it means that they now are confident of the beast..
just imagine if ARJUN would have performed bad what all reports you would have been listing us,right from army quotes to media quotes...
but the hard work has turned the table,appreciate something if its good.
regards

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## ao333

lhuang said:


> Tracks are Indian.
> 
> What weapons are Israeli? Other than the LAHAT ATGM.
> 
> It's not any heavier than other contemporary tanks. M1A1, T99 etc.



Dude, the missile is Israeli, which is the contempory part. The rest are century-old tank guns.

You don't power a 60 ton-class with a 1.4khp engine. From what I heard, they're adding even more armor.

Germany sold the track kits to India. If you call that indigenous, sure.


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## flaming arrow

ao333 said:


> Dude, the missile is Israeli, which is the contempory part. The rest are century-old tank guns.
> 
> You don't power a 60 ton-class with a 1.4khp engine. From what I heard, they're adding even more armor.
> 
> Germany sold the track kits to India. If you call that indigenous, sure.



The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 ABHRAHAM TANK is the M256A1 120 mm smoothbore gun, designed by Rheinmetall AG of Germany,DOES THIS MAKE THE ABRAHAM LESS AMERICAN??

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## KEETARP

ao333 said:


> Dude, the missile is Israeli, which is the contempory part. The rest are century-old tank guns.
> You don't power a 60 ton-class with a 1.4khp engine. From what I heard, they're adding even more armor.









From the above image, i see most tanks along time-frame of Arjun have 1500Hp .

Which Guns Arjun is using and are centuries old . 
Some one expert on on Technology should help me with this - DMLA, SANCHO,anyone plz

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## karan.1970

guys.. why waste time to feed the trolls... bring out the bubbly and enjoy the moment...

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## ao333

flaming arrow said:


> The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 ABHRAHAM TANK is the M256A1 120 mm smoothbore gun, designed by Rheinmetall AG of Germany,DOES THIS MAKE THE ABRAHAM LESS AMERICAN??



Are you serious? Germany is part of the American Empire. They have over 20 military bases to use there. How many can India use if Germany stopped selling?



LT.PRATEEK said:


> From the above image, i see most tanks along time-frame of Arjun have 1500Hp .
> 
> Which Guns Arjun is using and are centuries old .
> Some one expert on on Technology should help me with this - DMLA, SANCHO,anyone plz



Tell me, when was the last major upgrade of tank guns since its invention? And when did all the Arjuns suddenly receive a 100hp upgrade while the upgrade research hasn't even finished yet?


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## Relucent

LT.PRATEEK said:


> From the above image, i see most tanks along time-frame of Arjun have 1500Hp .
> 
> Which Guns Arjun is using and are centuries old .
> Some one expert on on Technology should help me with this - DMLA, SANCHO,anyone plz



I dont know much ,but i think he is questining the effectiveness of "rifled"gun.
When mounted on a tank, the only advantage in the smoothbore, is the ability to fire both normal ammunition and missiles from the main gun. 
These gun barrels have a longer life as there is no 'rifling' to wear out. 

Rifled barrels on the other hand, increases the 'lethal range' of a tank gun.
The only 2 tanks using rifled guns are Challenger2 and Arjun,the challenger is not able to fire missiles but Arjun is(LAHAT ATGM).There fore a major negative of rifled barrel has been removed.Though i must point out the life span of the barrel will be shorter than smoothbore ones as the rifling will wear out with time.
Comparing the pros and cons id say, Arjun has a hell of a gun !

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## flaming arrow

> Are you serious? Germany is part of the American Empire. They have over 20 military bases to use there. How many can India use if Germany stopped selling?


WOW  THATS BRLLIANT LOGIC BY YOUR STANDARDS THE MAIN OF ABRAHAM IS GERMAN SO YOU MAKE GERMAN AMERICANS GOOD LORD..

STOP TROLLING


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## flaming arrow

> Tell me, when did all the Arjuns receive a 100hp upgrade while the research hasn't even been finished yet?


as of now the engine is still 1400hp though DRDO is working to get the engine from cummins (kirloskar) which will be 1500hp.

however what they have done to the present 1400hp engine is mating an indian Turbo Charger which supposedly gives additional 100hp. there was an old report alluding to that. 
DRDO Arjun (Lion) Main Battle Tank - History, Specifications and Picture - Military Tanks, Vehicles, and Artillery


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## KEETARP

ao333 said:


> Are you serious? Germany is part of the American Empire. They have over 20 military bases to use there. How many can India use if Germany stopped selling?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, when was the last major upgrade of tank guns since its invention? And when did all the Arjuns suddenly receive a 100hp upgrade while the upgrade research hasn't even finished yet?



Lets talk abt Engine power , you said no tank of Arjun's wt class carries that low power , i have shown you the proof Arjun is 58.5 ton, Abrams are 68 ton and both have same Hp 1500.
Even 1400 Hp if you want- Arjun is underpowered ?????????????? then what will you call ABRAMS

And Germany is part of AMERICA - Just to back your statement.
I am sorry , i cant continue discussion with you . 
You are too much misinformed abt world and India.

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## ao333

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Lets talk abt Engine power , you said no tank of Arjun's wt class carries that low power , i have shown you the proof Arjun is 58.5 ton, Abrams are 68 ton and both have same Hp 1500.
> Even 1400 Hp if you want- Arjun is underpowered ?????????????? then what will you call ABRAMS
> 
> And Germany is part of AMERICA - Just to back your statement.
> I am sorry , i cant continue discussion with you .
> You are too much misinformed abt world and India.



So suddenly a road tank is being compared to a field tank and Arjuns suddenly received a magical 100hp upgrade of paper folded engines.

I rest my case.


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## Mahakaya

ao333 said:


> So suddenly a road tank is being compared to a field tank and Arjuns suddenly received a magical 100hp upgrade of paper folded engines.
> 
> *I rest my case*.



You should have done so long time back - The country where you stay - you know what they call you right THE 51st state of America!

And your argument is utter nonsense with little value add - so please refrain from talking BS cos YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO INFLUENCES OUR IAs DECISIONS. SO YES YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY REST YOUR CASE!

And here is a comparison: This is from last month - even if it is 1400 HP - It does not MATTER it is still comparable to the TOP TANKS IN THE WORLD!

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## Relucent

ao333 said:


> So suddenly a road tank is being compared to a field tank and Arjuns suddenly received a magical 100hp upgrade of paper folded engines.
> 
> I rest my case.



Dude seriously all those questions of yours have been answered to.
Why u showin your good brains by askin the same questions again and again????
Spend your time in a better way............................


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## KEETARP

ao333 said:


> So suddenly a road tank is being compared to a field tank and Arjuns suddenly received a magical 100hp upgrade of paper folded engines.
> 
> I rest my case.



Dont run away from reality , my friend???????
we are comparing Power of engines against weight of tank.
You still haven't proved why Arjun has less power weighing at 58.5 tons with 1400Hp while Abrams has 68.5 tons with 1500Hp.
And for your benefit Leopard has 60.5 tons and 1500Hp only.

I can just see one thing - you were here trying to troll and nothing else, 
may be a Chinese hiding behind , looking at all your other posts


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## jagjitnatt

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Dont run away from reality , my friend???????
> we are comparing Power of engines against weight of tank.
> You still haven't proved why Arjun has less power weighing at 58.5 tons with 1400Hp while Abrams has 68.5 tons with 1500Hp.
> And for your benefit Leopard has 60.5 tons and 1500Hp only.
> 
> I can just see one thing - you were here* trying to troll* and nothing else,
> may be a Chinese hiding behind , looking at all your other posts



Its recession time yaar. Let him earn his 50 cents.

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## Mauryan

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, *just who were the tankers behind the T-90?* With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it *makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun*.



Thats an absurd statement of its kind.
T-90 has an order book of more than 1000 tanks in India.IA even envinced its interest to buy more to build up a tank force of 4500.

On the other hand when we are talking about the guns accuracy,we are testing the tank in Indian terrain from +50 deg C. T-90 dont have air conditioner,and its catherine sights goes of the mark in desert temperatures.
If you look at the firings of both tanks, T-90 did much better during its before noon when the temperatures are less as compared to noon temperatures.
And in general it has a night time viewing problem.

Arjun is/was the only tank in the world that been through ~10,000km and ~8000 round firing untill its barrel got burst.No other thank was tested like hell as this one.
And it was only during this testing phase,minute error removal and major upgrades were performed.
For the bolded part,same can be said against Arjun. 
This is not boasting,but the tank GSQR was changed N number of times.One time army called of a T-90 sized ,while other time called for a Leo comparitive.
Finally DRDO went for the Leo sized KANCHAN armoured tank.
Apart from armys problem of having special wagons and infrastructure,they actually have no problem with Arjun.Because of this tank,much money has to be spent again in raising infrastructe while its not the case with T-90.
More likely Arjun will be put into CBG,rather than into the defence corps.This just shows the confidence attained by IA with the tank.Its integrated BMS(battle management system) comes handy for its foot soldier-commander level networking program.
Though the initial report in this thread failed to acknowledge the indigenous 1500HP engine that supossed to go into engine along with other accesories replacing the imported,tracks will be kept the same getting TOT for local manufacture.

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## satishkumarcsc

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Dont run away from reality , my friend???????
> we are comparing Power of engines against weight of tank.
> You still haven't proved why Arjun has less power weighing at 58.5 tons with 1400Hp while Abrams has 68.5 tons with 1500Hp.
> And for your benefit Leopard has 60.5 tons and 1500Hp only.
> 
> I can just see one thing - you were here trying to troll and nothing else,
> may be a Chinese hiding behind , looking at all your other posts



Too late man..I found it out yesterday so I stopped replying to him.


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## Indian Su30 MKI

Good news brothers


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## gogbot



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## Justin Joseph

faithfulguy said:


> I wouldn't be too surprised if its a face saving move. They probably have grade school kids drive T-90.



no need to troll fan boy of china.


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## xman

we need to buy T-90 even if Arjun is more sophisticated and advanced than T-90, because Russia is planning to modify and develop it's T-90 tank rather than developing T-95. Sooner or later we can be a part of their developing program and Vice-Versa 
so on both the sides we do not have any loss.


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## jha

^^^ in place of buying more T-90s it will be a much better to develop ARJUN and bring MK-2 and MK-3 versions...we are not going to fight a war in near future and that leaves us ample time to develop our own TANK using best available technological inputs from RUSSIA, ISRAEL and GERMANY where ever necessary..

dont you think that would be one kick@$$ tank for even upgraded T-90s.

Feel free to disagree


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## deckingraj

wow....That some news...Would you guys believe i read each and every post on these 7 pages(after all news is worth).....I must say i am surprised that apart from a couple of members not many critics have doubted the performance of Arjun....So officially(as far as this forum is concerned) can we now assume that it is no more ARJUNK and is our killer Arjun????

Anyways does not matter what people say DRDO has proven its worth with the success of this killer machine...Though ironically earlier people used to called it indegenous and a faliure now they are claiming it to be a imported tank instead of indegenous failure....


Anyways i am enjoying it all...


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## Dash

jha said:


> ^^^ in place of buying more T-90s it will be a much better to develop ARJUN and bring MK-2 and MK-3 versions...we are not going to fight a war in near future and that leaves us ample time to develop our own TANK using best available technological inputs from RUSSIA, ISRAEL and GERMANY where ever necessary..
> 
> dont you think that would be one kick@$$ tank for even upgraded T-90s.
> 
> Feel free to disagree


Mostly I feel they should first work on delivering low cost logistical support to the army and get the infrastructure ready. So that the army will not have an excuse.

Work on reducing weight. and use kaveri engine to power this tank. Like the Abrams are powered by gas turbine engines.

Its time now for DRDO to bring every tech to one single umbrella and see the feasibilty of a reasearch and its wide spreead applications.
They need to capitalize the success of Arjun.


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## Mauryan

lhuang said:


> First it was Indians claiming Arjuns were sabotaged, now its a Chinese traitor saying T90s were sabotaged. Oh lordy.



Man......

Actually the former wasnt correct. there was no sabotage w.r.t Arjun on behalf of Indian army.

the problem here was 2 fold.
One is time taken for the development,which let the army to go for T-90 instead of Arjun.And army got TOT for T-90 to produce in numbers to achieve its requirement numbers.
during this time Arjun was suffering with teething problems,which has to be considered a main cause.And in perspectives it was clear that army never insisted in inducting a problematic MBT,instead it went after T-90 considered as ahighly modified and upgraded T-72.

Now army has `2000 T-72 of them only 700 or so were upgraded to CIA(combat improved Ajeya)After all,T-72 was a decades old design and the threats have drastically changed.Hence the need for a superior firepower along with armour.
T-90 did excellent during trials on Russian landmass,but failed miserably in indian temperatures. It was a face saving measure by Army to cover the mess and started sending RFP for air conditioner,thermal sights ,..... which later made the tank exceptionally costly compared to Arjun with similar features.

and reason for Armys reluctance was that,it got its doctrine readied with T-90 and T-72.All the logistics and infrastructure were developed accordingly.Now all of a sudden Arjun proved beyond doubt.This put army in a dilema of inducting a system that will interfere with all its doctrinal and logistics plans.

IF IA did have followed the Israeli way of inducting MBT ,though it turned out with issues,it would have been in much better position.

Now the much possible wayout is inducting <500 Arjuns(throw them into strike corps/integrated battle groups) while going for a F-MBT design while taking use of the Arjun developmental effort.
At the same time to use the Arjun infrastructre,it would be much better to go for Tank-EX which is a T-72 hull and Arjun riffled gun.
Its actually a win-win situation if this logic was followed.On one side using the knowledge gained in the past,while on the otherside compensating developmental costs in the name of tank-EX.

And Tank-EX will do much muchhhhh better in terms of networking and providing enormous firepower.


And regarding the later,it was a known rhetoric that these fellow members followup........ just

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## deckingraj

jha said:


> ^^^ in place of buying more T-90s it will be a much better to develop ARJUN and bring MK-2 and MK-3 versions...*we are not going to fight a war in near future* and that leaves us ample time to develop our own TANK using best available technological inputs from RUSSIA, ISRAEL and GERMANY where ever necessary..
> 
> dont you think that would be one kick@$$ tank for even upgraded T-90s.
> 
> Feel free to disagree



How do you know about the bolded part??? Yes Arjun might have outperformed T-90(though would wait for official report to be out) however lets not ignore the fact that it is a battle proven tank....You can't just dump your MBT like this and switch to other...The transformation from T-90 to Arjun should be gradual...In other words carry on with the order of 1000 T-90 you have ordered...Induct enough Arjun to ensure supply lines are smooth and any glitches there sorted out....T-90 is one heck of a good machine and is better than whatever our adversaries are fielding agaisnt us...It has its problm in Desert Area so Arjun can definitely help in there....

Invest heavily in Arjun MKI - MKII and ensure we get our FMBT in Arjun....


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## xman

what do we have to counter Chinese T-99 and T-98 G(can any one provide some info) under development. 


T-99

Weight : ~54 tonnes for Type-99G~57; tonnes for Type-99A1
~58 tonnes for Type-99A2
Length 11.0 m
Width 3.4 m
Height 2.2 m
Crew 3 (4 originally based on the Type 98 prototypes without autoloader)
*Armor: Classified, Al2O3, ERA, composite, others?
*

Primary
armament :125 mm smoothbore tank gun, compatible with Chinese 140mm guns, or *155 mm for Type 99KM*

Secondary
armament: Type 85 heavy machine gun 12.7x108 mm commander's machine gun,7.62 mm coaxial machine gun

Engine: liquid-cooled diesel,1,500 hp (1,100 kW); *2,100 hp for Type 99KM*

Power/weight: 27.8 hp/tonne; *28 hp/tonne for Type 99KM*
Suspension: torsion bar

Operational range :	600 km
Speed :	80 km/h (50 mph)


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## flaming arrow

deckingraj said:


> How do you know about the bolded part??? Yes Arjun might have outperformed T-90(though would wait for official report to be out) however lets not ignore the fact that it is a battle proven tank....You can't just dump your MBT like this and switch to other...The transformation from T-90 to Arjun should be gradual...In other words carry on with the order of 1000 T-90 you have ordered...Induct enough Arjun to ensure supply lines are smooth and any glitches there sorted out....T-90 is one heck of a good machine and is better than whatever our adversaries are fielding agaisnt us...It has its problm in Desert Area so Arjun can definitely help in there....
> 
> Invest heavily in Arjun MKI - MKII and ensure we get our FMBT in Arjun....



Buddy please don think that the Arjun's final and official trial report will be made public by the army so that we can discuss,to reveal a report thier are other modes,what we are reading is just one of them...
Ajay shula himself is an ex service man,he hails from armoured core,who better then him to pass the info!!!!!
Also u have mentioned a very good point about the move from t-90 to arjun sholud be gradual this is exactly what the army will be doing,the other version will be coming in tranches of mk2 and mk3 may well be a joint "indo russian venture" involving a whole new design concept of tanks with lower silhouette.American's are working on it...
A good notice would be that current arjun comes with 7 much better add on's in terms of tech
Many wont be able to digest but it is surely one of the best tanks of the world

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## coolmesh842

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



Time and again it has been proved that T90 can not be compared with that of Arjun and that Arjun now is entirely a new class of its own. The MBT status in any army entirely depends on the needs of the army and the mandate the army has to achieve given any situation esp offensive ones. Definitely Arjun do not satisfy such requirement but it is one of the Gem of DRDO and what it can do, T90 may not be able to do at all. In indian army T90 plays a light armored offense role compared to Arjun which is a heavy weight. 

I am quite certain in desert it will play a defensive role till army fine tunes this tank. 

A era for Arjun has just began.


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## deckingraj

flaming arrow said:


> Buddy please don think that the Arjun's final and official trial report will be made public by the army so that we can discuss,to reveal a report thier are other modes,what we are reading is just one of them...
> Ajay shula himself is an ex service man,he hails from armoured core,who better then him to pass the info!!!!!



I have not an iota of doubt about the performance of Arjun...My reference to official report was to find out how exactly Arjun outperformed T-90....





> Also u have mentioned a very good point about the move from t-90 to arjun sholud be gradual this is exactly what the army will be doing,the other version will be coming in tranches of mk2 and mk3 may well be a joint "indo russian venture" involving a whole new design concept of tanks *with lower silhouette.American's are working on it...*



Can you share more light on the bolded part....




> A good notice would be that current arjun comes with 7 much better add on's in terms of tech



Yup... T-90 and Arjun both working in tandem is surely going to be a nightmare for our adversaries....




> Many wont be able to digest but it is surely one of the best tanks of the world



Who cares...Let the people think what they wanna think...


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## deckingraj

coolmesh842 said:


> Time and again it has been proved that T90 can not be compared with that of Arjun and that Arjun now is entirely a new class of its own. The MBT status in any army entirely depends on the needs of the army and the mandate the army has to achieve given any situation esp offensive ones. Definitely Arjun do not satisfy such requirement but it is one of the Gem of DRDO and what it can do, T90 may not be able to do at all. In indian army T90 plays a light armored offense role compared to Arjun which is a heavy weight.
> 
> I am quite certain in desert it will play a defensive role till army fine tunes this tank.
> 
> A era for Arjun has just began.



Can you please share some more light on why Arjun cannot be used for an offensive role in its immediate future???


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## genetic_nomad

deckingraj said:


> Can you please share some more light on why Arjun cannot be used for an offensive role in its immediate future???



yaar we are not military experts nor do we have access to official/private info regarding IA tactics and possible uses for Arjun. questions like these very quickly turn in to fanboy fights, please refrain.
i'd say let us wait for official reports from the actual end-user i.e. Indian Army  cheers


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## deckingraj

genetic_nomad said:


> yaar we are not military experts nor do we have access to official/private info regarding IA tactics and possible uses for Arjun. questions like these very quickly turn in to fanboy fights, please refrain.
> i'd say let us wait for official reports from the actual end-use i.e. Indian Army  cheers



Hmmmm...My intent is to find out why he thinks that Arjun cannot be used for offensive role in its current configurations....What kind of fine tuning is still required to turn this beast into offensive mode...

Not sure how can it lead to fanboy fights.???


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> if I'm sitting in the Pakistani tank



it is probably going to happen in some defunct relic at some road intersection in India 



faithfulguy said:


> , I would rather face Arjun than a T-90



O Yeah Baby! The Arjun will relieve you of your battlefield duties much, much sooner than a T-90.

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## genetic_nomad

deckingraj said:


> Hmmmm...My intent is to find out why he thinks that Arjun cannot be used for offensive role in its current configurations....What kind of fine tuning is still required to turn this beast into offensive mode...
> 
> *Not sure how can it lead to fanboy fights.???*



when people start assuming capabilities of Arjun and its adversaries


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## bumbgola

ptldM3 said:


> Years ago i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 was dead accurare even while traversing over rough terrain, just who were the tankers behind the T-90? With that kind of hit probability, or lack there of, it makes me wonder if the T-90 was set up to fail in favore of the Arjun.



T-90, the beast on Russian ice, feeling out of element in the Indian desert?


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> I wouldn't be too surprised if its a face saving move.



What will be your face saving move now, you arjunkie?



faithfulguy said:


> They probably have grade school kids drive T-90.



You speak from your experience in China or the US?


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## flaming arrow

deckingraj said:


> Can you please share some more light on why Arjun cannot be used for an offensive role in its immediate future???



Arjun can be used for offensive role....BUT you simply cannot send a tank for an offensive operation because it better,infrastructure to support the tank is also required like tactical bridges,and logistical support required for sustaining a operation..delays to this project has done some damage but it has also given us something..
Main proble higligted by he army has been logistics which will now be over come by MULTI YEAR purchasing of Arjun tank..i would blame the DGMF for not making it happen as they clearly missed this point(this shows they never expected arjun to make it they were in denial mode)every year unspent money is returned back to finance ministry if they would been logical and would have taken keen interest in desi beast major chunk of problem regarding to offensive role of arju would have not existed kher....better late then never

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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> Indians: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. National pride.
> Pakistanis: Indian military should buy Indian made tanks. Victory in the tank battles.



The cure for this very smelly itch in your posterior is to fix an appointment for your stinky derriere with a hot, smoking Arjun tank gun barrel.


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> If Arjuns are superior compare to T-90, then India made a grave mistake by buying the 1000+ T-90s. So did India made the mistake of buying the T-90s or are Arjuns made to win the comparason?



Lets analyse 

Case 1: Arjun better than T-90 better than T-80UD/AK/AZ/T-55/Type-98/Type-99

India pummels Pakistani/Chini armour

Case 2: T-90 better than Arjun better than T-80UD/AK/AZ/T-55/Type-98/Type-99

OMG! India beats Pakistani/Chini armour

In essence how you want your tank army slaughtered becomes a multi-choice question. The enemy tank killed count can then supplied to you to pronounce either the Arjun or the T-90 as winner.

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## genetic_nomad

bumbgola said:


> Lets analyse
> 
> Case 1: Arjun better than T-90 better than T-80UD/AK/AZ/T-55/Type-98/Type-99
> 
> India pummels Pakistani/Chini armour
> 
> Case 2: T-90 better than Arjun better than T-80UD/AK/AZ/T-55/Type-98/Type-99
> 
> OMG! India beats Pakistani/Chini armour
> 
> The enemy tank killed count can then supplied to you to pronounce either the Arjun or the T-90 as winner.



I honestly hope that we don't have to go to war with any of our neighbors dude, all of us have worked very hard to bring our economy to the current level. a war would lay waste to so much of our effort and kill so many of our brave soldiers.

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## bumbgola

genetic_nomad said:


> I honestly hope that we don't have to go to war with any of our neighbors dude, all of us have worked very hard to bring our economy to the current level. a war would lay waste to so much of our effort and kill so many of our brave soldiers.



The right attitude would be to be know that your neighbour hopes he never has to fight you.


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> A lot of confusion.



Confusion seems to have spread in the enemy camp


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## genetic_nomad

bumbgola said:


> The right attitude would be to be know that your neighbour hopes he never has to fight you.



in our environment, I doubt there's a way to know, the risk will always be there bud.
edit: as long as there are pending issues, the risk will continue.


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## bumbgola

birdofprey said:


> Hey guys are u still talking to this guy and replying??/




Eeeps! Should have guessed as much, so long fatfulguy


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## bumbgola

genetic_nomad said:


> in our environment, I doubt there's a way to know, the risk will always be there bud.



Precisely my point, remove the doubt.


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## genetic_nomad

bumbgola said:


> Precisely my point, remove the doubt.



as long as there are pending issues, the risk will continue


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## Khalid Ibn Walid

Arjun was the worst tank ever,but i guess with these improvements it might just might improve some what .


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## genetic_nomad

Khalid Ibn Walid said:


> Arjun was the worst tank ever,but i guess with these improvements it might just might improve some what .



what you think hardly makes any difference. bottom-line: it seems to have satisfied our army's requirement; it's their job to determine if Arjun in the present form fulfills their needs, that's all that counts.

ps: welcome to PakDef. good to have you


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## Mirza Jatt

whatttttt ?????



Khalid Ibn Walid said:


> Arjun was the worst tank ever



any source to prove it ?....



> but i guess with these improvements it might just might improve some what .



read the the thread from the beginning..your chinese parter tried hard and got his answers.


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## bumbgola

ao333 said:


> People, the weapons, fire control and navigation are Israeli while the engine and tracks are German.



Take the best you get, until you make the best you get.



ao333 said:


> The reason why it's so heavy is because the chassis is made in India. The designers just keep on adding armor because it's the only part of the tank that's indigenous.



If you compare it to any western tank it will start to take some of the weight off of you.



ao333 said:


> Though, I have to commend India for being able to assemble such an unmaneuverable and patent-stricken tank.



Maneuverability was never a problem. I dont recall the DRDO filing a patent for developing the Arjun.


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## bumbgola

genetic_nomad said:


> as long as there are pending issues, the risk will continue



No, I am saying India Pakistan should always be a one sided contest like 1971. Efforts by DRDO focus on how to make it more lopsided than it already is. China is the real threat, and to take it down we have to build ourselves as well as engage in strategic partnerships on the lines of enemy's enemy is a friend.


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## genetic_nomad

bumbgola said:


> No, I am saying India Pakistan should always be a one sided contest like 1971. Efforts by DRDO focus on how to make it more lopsided than it already is. China is the real threat, and to take it down we have to build ourselves as well as engage in strategic partnerships on the lines of enemy's enemy is a friend.



agreed. all I'm saying is that I just hope we don't actually go to a war as it would be destructive for our economy and our people.
Military modernization efforts should definitely continue full steam.


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## Khalid Ibn Walid

Which Tank is the Worst? 
by Harold C. Hutchison

Other tanks with major issues include Indias Arjun, which was been in development for over 20 years and is just now entering series production  twenty years behind schedule. Its also turning into a maintenance nightmare, requiring more maintenance personnel than the T-72s already in Indian service. It is also proving to be incompatible with current tank transporters in the Indian Army. It is also overweight (at 58.5 tons), and the Indian army still cannot get a decent engine for this tank. To be fair to this tank, it is still in development. However, the chances of these problems being fixed can only be described as slim.


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## bumbgola

genetic_nomad said:


> Military modernization efforts should definitely continue full steam.



True true. War is devastating. The point of the whole military modernisation is to avoid war. That is what I mean when I say you know your enemy hopes he never has to go to war with you & we work to get there.


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## Moorkh

i believe the biggest problem with arjun was the stigma that got attached to it.

for a very very long time it was not upto the standards the army required of it. that was the time the army formed the impression that it was useless. for many years after that, it was still inferior and the impression strengthened. now that it is upto the task or maybe better, the army is continuously reminded of the several failures the tank has had over the many years it was under development. infact even when the first few regiments were being armed with the arjun, the army felt that the tank was being shoved down its throat for reasons unrelated to defence.

now once the tank proves itself worthy beyond doubt, the stigma might lift.


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## jha

enough same boring talk... i present..



THE BEST TANK IN THE WORLD 

in the next post.


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## jha



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## genetic_nomad

LMAO..nice one.


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## Storm Force

I predicted over 18 months ago that India would Field over 10 regiments of Arjun Tanks some 450 Tanks by 2020. 

This would constitute around 15&#37; of INDIA future Tank nos. 

Approx 1500 T90 by 2020 in 30 regiments 
Approx 1000 Tank X (HYBRID OF ARJUN & T72) BY 2020 IN 20 REGIMENTS. 

Thats exactly wat i think will end up happening.


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## Indian-Devil

Khalid Ibn Walid said:


> Which Tank is the Worst?
> by Harold C. Hutchison
> 
> Other tanks with major issues include Indias Arjun, which was been in development for over 20 years and is just now entering series production  twenty years behind schedule. Its also turning into a maintenance nightmare, requiring more maintenance personnel than the T-72s already in Indian service. It is also proving to be incompatible with current tank transporters in the Indian Army. It is also overweight (at 58.5 tons), and the Indian army still cannot get a decent engine for this tank. To be fair to this tank, it is still in development. However, the chances of these problems being fixed can only be described as slim.




From how many years you were sleeping??? Or you just woke up from some wet dreams and asking yrs back questions?
Can you check the date for this source ??

In this specific thread we have seen our Bhaijaans have not replied to any posts. Seems they are still not beliving that Arjunk is Arjun now for them.


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## genetic_nomad

Indian-Devil said:


> From how many years you were sleeping??? Or you just woke up from some wet dreams and asking yrs back questions?
> Can you check the date for this source ??
> 
> In this specific thread we have seen our Bhaijaans have not replied to any posts. Seems they are still not beliving that Arjunk is Arjun now for them.



refrain from personal attacks bud, they don't serve any purpose.
try to stay objective.


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## ao333

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Dont run away from reality , my friend???????
> we are comparing Power of engines against weight of tank.
> You still haven't proved why Arjun has less power weighing at 58.5 tons with 1400Hp while Abrams has 68.5 tons with 1500Hp.
> And for your benefit Leopard has 60.5 tons and 1500Hp only.
> 
> I can just see one thing - you were here trying to troll and nothing else,
> may be a Chinese hiding behind , looking at all your other posts



Wow, I was trying to save you face. But, apparently, you don't even know the difference between Abrams--a road tank and Arjuns--a field tank.

This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world...

I am aware of the fifty cents party that's all over G&M and NYtimes, but seriously, I don't think the Chinese government cares enough about India, to even spend 50 cents on you guys.

I'm not going to go racist. But you guys should really ask what white Americans or even your buddy Englishmen think of you guys. We're just playing along so the commies won't take over the world. The USA, RF and PRC are the players, the rest are just chess pieces. I guess that's a mentality Indians will never be able to cope with.


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## genetic_nomad

ao333 said:


> Wow, I was trying to save you face. But, apparently, you don't even know the difference between Abrams--a road tank and Arjuns--a field tank.
> 
> This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world...
> 
> I am aware of the fifty cents party that's all over G&M and NYtimes, but seriously, I don't think the Chinese government cares enough about India, to even spend 50 cents on you guys.
> 
> I'm not going to go racist. But you guys should really ask what white Americans or even your buddy Englishmen think of you guys. We're just playing along so the commies won't take over the world. The USA, RF and PRC are the players, the rest are just chess pieces. I guess that's a mentality Indians will never be able to cope with.



ao333, try to stay objective dude. no need to get carried away ( i advise fellow indians the same). try to ignore inflammatory remarks.
This is a defense forum, our (Indian & otherwise) social (or shall i say stereotypical) standing on the world stage is of little importance. Stay on topic guys


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## letsbefriends

congrats guys army will place more orders for arjun with advanced capabilities like firing of LAHAT atgm's and additional protective armour..kudos..i hope atleast 500 mk1 arjuns r dere...we can use dem in defence operations rather dan strike and dey can retire t55's.


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## vimki

Fantastic News for DRDO. It seems they are on full throttle now a days


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## letsbefriends

ao333 said:


> Wow, I was trying to save you face. But, apparently, you don't even know the difference between Abrams--a road tank and Arjuns--a field tank.
> 
> This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world...
> 
> 
> I am aware of the fifty cents party that's all over G&M and NYtimes, but seriously, I don't think the Chinese government cares enough about India, to even spend 50 cents on you guys.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to go racist. But you guys should really ask what white Americans or even your buddy Englishmen think of you guys. We're just playing along so the commies won't take over the world. The USA, RF and PRC are the players, the rest are just chess pieces. I guess that's a mentality Indians will never be able to cope with.


who the heck r u to decide dat u favour chinese over indians???

ya our independence came acentury later and still we r challenging d world..just speaks volumes abt our capabilities.in fact canadian pm has made announcements abt hw much they owe d indians for d development of canada..we have way more indian origin mp's in canada than the chinese..canadians vote for them..

ya rite chinese govt dont pay us any attention.. y did they supplied nuclear weapons and other weapons to pakistan to engage in an arms race with india

ohhh ur mao told dis to u...that PRC is the player and what game r u playing???tianamen square or google attack.poor commies grow up..real game will be wen US will slash and make d dollar fall own to trash prices so dat ur 2 trillion debt will be paid in trash..den we will see who r the real players.. in the mean while u can stay high on ur pot or crack..or even cockroaches n reptiles for that matter


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## KEETARP

ao333 said:


> Wow, I was trying to save you face. But, apparently, you don't even know the difference between Abrams--a road tank and Arjuns--a field tank.
> 
> This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world...
> 
> I am aware of the fifty cents party that's all over G&M and NYtimes, but seriously, I don't think the Chinese government cares enough about India, to even spend 50 cents on you guys.
> 
> I'm not going to go racist. But you guys should really ask what white Americans or even your buddy Englishmen think of you guys. We're just playing along so the commies won't take over the world. The USA, RF and PRC are the players, the rest are just chess pieces. I guess that's a mentality Indians will never be able to cope with.



Are you crack or what / seems like really low on IQ
You Made a statement Arjun is underpowered , everyone on this forum is asking you to prove it, you dont seem to get that point instead you start showing your love for China, and anti-India posts.
Secondly when Proof is given atleast on two places in form of comparison charts to show Power of other tanks , still you dont seem to learn anything. 

*Last time - I am asking you why do you think -Arjun is underpowered in comparison to other tanks ,( follow charts posted before)*

If you cant justify your claim then
Stop your B.S and Troll towards India and its People. 
If you dont like Arjun / India , leave this forum and join Sino-def forum

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## nietzche

@ a033 " This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world..."

my friend couple of points to consider:
1. In Canada largest number of immigrants are from mainland china..I wonder why? whats so wrong with that place that most of you want to leave it?

2. A lot chinese immigrants and students are into a lot of illegal and immoral business including prostitution (in fact the largest number of prostitutes in canada are from china) and they sure are cheap  

so i dont know which cave you have been living in. 

BTW ..my first post in PDF...sure is going to ruffle a lot of Wum&#225;o Dangs..the fire of peking shud be upon me...if not the wall of pindi...cheers!

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## Novice09

faithfulguy said:


> Arjun was capped at 124.. It was regarded as a failure. Now India is buying more... A lot of confusion. So that is why others are doubt the validity of the test.



Do you think that no upgrades and modifications were done on those CAPPED Arjuns  

Even our Army is confused on this issue, HOW TO TACKLE MoD and Mr. Anthony on their CONCERNS 

initially they kept saying that they don't want Arjun; but when they requested to upgrade T72's they were beguiled  on top of that successful trials in march 2010


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## Novice09

*Here comes our boy by overcoming all the hurdles*  







http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1054&g2_serialNumber=2

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## genetic_nomad

nietzche said:


> @ a033 " This comes in a surprise. So suddenly whoever unveils India's indigenous capabilities is automatically labeled Chinese. You guys are dwelling in a cave. In Canada, East Asians are considered prestigious, compared to Indians, and honestly, in rest of the western world. We even favor Chinese immigrants over Indians, in spite of the "English" linguistical advantage Indians claim to have. I guess it is common of [some] Indians since in spite of having god knows how many people, your independence came a whole century later, than the rest of world..."
> 
> my friend couple of points to consider:
> 1. In Canada largest number of immigrants are from mainland china..I wonder why? whats so wrong with that place that most of you want to leave it?
> 
> 2. A lot chinese immigrants and students are into a lot of illegal and immoral business including prostitution (in fact the largest number of prostitutes in canada are from china) and they sure are cheap
> 
> so i dont know which cave you have been living in.
> 
> BTW ..my first post in PDF...sure is going to ruffle a lot of Wumáo Dangs..the fire of peking shud be upon me...if not the wall of pindi...cheers!



lmao, one heck of a first post boy. but kindly refrain from such personal attacks, it only helps to derail the thread further. 
welcome to  good to have you!


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## nietzche

thnks nomad...nice to b here ...over th yrs have enjoyed th lively n sometimes enlightening debates n flamewars n trolls of all sizes... th security posture of china india n pakistan r interdependent...cause n effect ...sure we r all getting armed to th teeth...but guess what...rivalry such as what we have is making us all better...sure money cud b spent elsewhere but what the heck ...i wud rather be poor n free than b in a golden prison...so cheers to all of us n let the wargames begin... n yeah th crucified warrior seems to be resurrecting a la the phoenix...hope he achieves mythic proportions in th yrs to come n aims for th dragons eyes!!

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## faithfulguy

Novice09 said:


> *Here comes our boy by overcoming all the hurdles*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://*****************/album/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1054&g2_serialNumber=2



Does India use tanks as a float in the carnival parade


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## genetic_nomad

^^^from the looks of it, it seems like the induction ceremony of the first batch.


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## nietzche

yeah...i agree ...the first pic shows her gettin out of the pool showing oh so ample bosoms...the next one shows a line up of lingerie models off to the Rio carnival...


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## faithfulguy

nietzche said:


> yeah...i agree ...the first pic shows her gettin out of the pool showing oh so ample bosoms...the next one shows a line up of lingerie models off to the Rio carnival...



I can see guys passing out booz on top of the tank. In any case, the tanks got to be good for something. Why isn't India buy the Abrams if it has chance to? Because the politicians doesn't get what is best for the country, but base decisions on how much it can pocket.


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## Kinetic

Good decision. The Indian Army getting more corrupted day by day. I hope our new chief will take care of it. Until before the Arjun vs T-90S fight, they were supporting T-90S with some silly reasons like logistics, something like they will never get rid of Tin canes with something new!! If Arjuns can be utilized perfectly it can create havoc in the enemy. The new version with ERA, active protection and other features will make it invincible. They need to induct atleast 1000 Arjuns. But the production line is very slow, only 50 per year!!! They need atleast 150 per year. 







faithfulguy said:


> Does India use tanks as a float in the carnival parade



No! Some of our enemies might be pi$$ing in their pants watching Arjun coming thats why we are trying to put some beauty on this beast. India's tanks create horror among the enemy thats why they come like emperors, who destroy and eliminate the enemies.

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## genetic_nomad

faithfulguy said:


> I can see guys passing out booz on top of the tank. In any case, the tanks got to be good for something. Why isn't India buy the Abrams if it has chance to? Because the politicians doesn't get what is best for the country, but base decisions on how much it can pocket.



I haven't seen Abrams on offer yet. plus i think the current threat scenario does not warrant the need for an Abrams. T90 plus Arjun should be sufficient for facing our adversaries.

Lets see how things develop


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## ao333

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Are you crack or what / seems like really low on IQ
> You Made a statement Arjun is underpowered , everyone on this forum is asking you to prove it, you dont seem to get that point instead you start showing your love for China, and anti-India posts.
> Secondly when Proof is given atleast on two places in form of comparison charts to show Power of other tanks , still you dont seem to learn anything.
> 
> *Last time - I am asking you why do you think -Arjun is underpowered in comparison to other tanks ,( follow charts posted before)*
> 
> If you cant justify your claim then
> Stop your B.S and Troll towards India and its People.
> If you dont like Arjun / India , leave this forum and join Sino-def forum



The last time I checked, the average IQ of a white Canadian is 11&#37; higher than that of an Indian. Mind checking again for me?

Arjun is designed as a field tank, because India is not half industrialized, meaning it doesn't drive on roads, thus it needs significantly more power. The Abrams aims at metro warfare; it drives on cement roads. Now, the leopard is not a road tank. It is named so because of its supreme engine at the time (1.5khp over 3 decades ago). And didn't you know? Current Arjuns are powered by 1.4khp engines. The 1.5 ones are still in research. Moreover, field tanks often drive slower, due to the pressure on the engines when acceleration is required to ride over inclined planes, thus, a lower average speed is achieved because the gaschargers need to cool.



nietzche said:


> my friend couple of points to consider:
> 1. In Canada largest number of immigrants are from mainland china..I wonder why? whats so wrong with that place that most of you want to leave it?
> 
> 2. A lot chinese immigrants and students are into a lot of illegal and immoral business including prostitution (in fact the largest number of prostitutes in canada are from china) and they sure are cheap
> 
> so i dont know which cave you have been living in.
> 
> BTW ..my first post in PDF...sure is going to ruffle a lot of Wum&#225;o Dangs..the fire of peking shud be upon me...if not the wall of pindi...cheers!



1) So are you saying that having more Indian MPs in the government is something to be proud of? And as an Indian, you wish for more Indians to pledge their loyalty to Canada, so they can attain parliament seats?

Now, the naturalization process is much tougher for the Chinese, which is good for China, but definitely not for us. The chances of a Chinese returning to China is much greater than that of an Indian. And the detrimental problem is, the Chinese hold all the high-tech R&D posts in North America. An average Chinese immigrant seeks to learn from the west and return to homeland ("stealing" technology). Why don't Indians return to India after immigration if India is so much greater than China? Furthermore, what can they offer India upon return?

2) How old are you? Human trafficking is cheaper in India. A Chinese/Japanese costs about 500 USD while an Indian costs less than 80 to import (yet there're still so many Indian women who compete to be exported). You're humuliating Indian women, saying that there is no demand for them. Just set your foot on the streets and ask a prostitute. I bet you even want a Chinese/Japanese woman for wife, instead of an Indian, LOL.

FYI: 60% of American post-doc degrees and high tech posts are held by the Chinese. 70% of Subway sandwich workers in Canada are Indian. There are 22 times more research establishments in China than India. 72% of UBC and UT (the two most prestigious universities in Canada; nietzche can testify) students are Chinese. The average IQ of a Chinese is 27% higher than that of an Indian. _IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_.* That is why an average Canadian prefers a Chinese friend over an Indian.*

There are just so many more derogatory remarks I can make, but the others would just hurt you guys' "feelings."


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## genetic_nomad

ao333 said:


> The last time I checked, the average IQ of a white Canadian is 11% higher than that of an Indian. Mind checking again for me?
> 
> Arjun is designed as a field tank, because India is not half industrialized, meaning it doesn't drive on roads, thus it needs significantly more power. The Abrams aims at metro warfare; it drives on cement roads, less power is required. Now the leopard is not a road tank. It is named so because of its supreme engine at the time (1.5khp over 3 decades ago). And didn't you know? Current Arjuns are powered by a 1.4khp engine. The 1.5 ones are still in research. Moreover, field tanks often drive slower, due to the pressure on the engines when acceleration is required for inclined planes, thus, a lower average speed is achieved because the gaschargers need to cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The larger amount of Indian MPs in the government is solely due to Indian immigrants' loyalty to Canada. Now, the naturalization process is so much more tougher for the Chinese. The chances of a Chinese returning to China is much higher than that of an Indian. And the detrimental problem is, the Chinese hold all the high-tech R&D posts. An average Chinese immigrant seeks to obtain western knowledge and returns to homeland ("stealing" technology in the process). Why don't Indians return to India after immigration if India is so much greater than China? Furthermore, what can they offer to India upon return?
> 
> 2) How old are you? Human trafficking is cheaper in India. A Chinese costs about 500 USD while an Indian costs less than 80 to import. You're humuliating the Indian women, saying that there is no demand for them. Just go out to the street and ask a prostitute.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> 60% of American post-doc degrees and high tech posts are held by the Chinese.
> 70% of Subway sandwich workers in Canada are Indian.
> The average IQ of a Chinese is 27% higher than that of an Indian.IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I'm getting so many responses... It's just so fun to bash you guys.
> 
> PS: There are just so many more derogatory remarks I can make, but I'd be just making you guys upset...



this is not the appropriate forum for discussing social issues, I'd stay away from those topics since I lack the knowledge and the interest in it. as for the Arjun's role as a field tank, I simply have to say that it seems to have satisfied Indian Army's requirements, and that's essentially all that matters. your and my (and other forum member's) opinion wouldn't make any difference to Arjun's fate.


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## ao333

genetic_nomad said:


> this is not the appropriate forum for discussing social issues, I'd stay away from those topics since I lack the knowledge and the interest in it. as for the Arjun's role as a field tank, I simply have to say that it seems to have satisfied Indian Army's requirements, and that's essentially all that matters. your and my (and other forum member's) opinion wouldn't make any difference to Arjun's fate.



Yeah, I totally agree. 

I just had so much fun bashing. Anyways, I'm going to go overboard soon if I don't stop here.


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## genetic_nomad

ao333 said:


> Yeah, I totally agree.
> 
> I just had so much fun bashing. Anyways, I'm going to go overboard soon if I don't stop here.



lol, I appreciate your restraint


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## Ingis

faithfulguy said:


> Does India use tanks as a float in the carnival parade



Stop it troll.


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## Ingis

Whoa! Arjun has finally proved its mettle. 

I guess the trolls can no longer use Arjun to taunt India. They would have to stick to "toilets" now.


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## KS

faithfulguy said:


> Really??? well, if I'm sitting in the Pakistani tank, I would rather face Arjun than a T-90.



hahaha...if *you *are sitting inside a pakistani tank then i wuld jus give an Indian soldier a INSAS rifle as it is enuff to take u down.

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## Lilo

ao333 said:


> The last time I checked, the average IQ of a white Canadian is 11% higher than that of an Indian. Mind checking again for me?
> 
> [/B]
> 
> There are just so many more derogatory remarks I can make, but the others would just hurt you guys' "feelings."





> the Chinese hold all the high-tech R&D posts in North America. An average Chinese immigrant seeks to learn from the west and return to homeland ("stealing" technology). Why don't Indians return to India after immigration if India is so much greater than China? Furthermore, what can they offer India upon return?
> 
> FYI: 60% of American post-doc degrees and high tech posts are held by the Chinese. 70% of Subway sandwich workers in Canada are Indian. There are 22 times more research establishments in China than India. 72% of UBC and UT (the two most prestigious universities in Canada; nietzche can testify). The average IQ of a Chinese is 27% higher than that of an Indian. _IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_.* That is why an average Canadian prefers a Chinese friend over an Indian.*


*

Top 20 occupations for those born in China

According to the link the largest portion of the "purported high IQ post doctorate level chinese" are all busy preparing chinese chow in US while i type this. And you say its different in canada ?

Top 20 occupations for those born in India (warning potential mind freeze effect on clicking this link. might come as a big shock to your high IQ)*

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## genetic_nomad

^^^lol, stay on topic guys. do we really have to resort to personal/racial attacks on a defense forum??


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> Does India use tanks as a float in the carnival parade



When we march past our enemies in military & economic strength.


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## BJlaowai

Karthic Sri said:


> hahaha...if *you *are sitting inside a pakistani tank then i wuld jus give an Indian soldier a INSAS rifle as it is enuff to take u down.



 Just remembered a joke:
How do you a stop a Pakistani tank?
Ans: Shoot the guys pushing the tank..

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## bumbgola

BJlaowai said:


> Just remembered a joke:
> How do you a stop a Pakistani tank?
> Ans: Shoot the guys pushing the tank..




How do you a stop a Chini tank?
Ans: Shoot the guys pushing the guys pushing the tank..


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## Chill Bihari

bumbgola said:


> How do you a stop a Chini tank?
> Ans: Shoot the guys pushing the guys pushing the tank..



Hey which lang is ur signaure in and what does it mean.


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## flaming arrow

Storm Force said:


> I predicted over 18 months ago that India would Field over 10 regiments of Arjun Tanks some 450 Tanks by 2020.
> 
> This would constitute around 15% of INDIA future Tank nos.
> 
> Approx 1500 T90 by 2020 in 30 regiments
> Approx 1000 Tank X (HYBRID OF ARJUN & T72) BY 2020 IN 20 REGIMENTS.
> 
> Thats exactly wat i think will end up happening.



Good to see you back storm force,i love ur short crisp to the point posters....
well u have mentioned the correct figures regarding t-90 but regarding tank x i think its doubtfull,tabk x is ready though..the arjun will be coming in as MK I & MKII,after that its hopefully going to be a new FMBT with a completely new design with russian collaboration,i think maximum of 50 Arjun would roll out every year (looking at current capability,avadi is already occupied with making t-90 and upgrading t-72 arjun will add more load)...
50x5=250 (ie 250 Arjun by 2015 AND 500 Arjun's by 2020)
total numbers of ARJUN =124 +500 = 624
This is based on current capability without taking into account if thier will be a seperate manufacturing unit for arjun..
PLEASE NOTE WE WONT BE SEEING ARJUN IN VERY HUGE NUMBERS UNTILL UNLESS ARMY DECIDES TO LET GO ITS OLD WORK HORSE T-72( I CANNOT COMMENT ON THIS THOUGH)..
BUT THE NUMBER IS STILL GOOD ENOUGH TO ANNIHILATE PAKISTANI ARMOUR KNOWING THAT WE HAVE BOTH T-90 AND ARJUN

MY WORRY WOULD BE PAKISTAN'S "II COPRS ALSO KNOWN AS ARMY RESERVE SOUTH ITS PAKISTAN'S HEAVY ARMOUR BASED AT MULTAN. IT HAS SOME SERIOUS CAPABILITY .. BUT THIS IS WHERE ARJUN WILL BRING THE CHANGE


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## bumbgola

Chill Bihari said:


> Hey which lang is ur signaure in and what does it mean.



"Jai Hind!" Victory to India! / Hail India!
&#8220;Tongzhimen hao!&#8221; Greetings, Comrades!
&#8220;Tongzhimen xinkule!&#8221; Comrades, you&#8217;ve worked hard

For more head here:

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## BJlaowai

Chill Bihari said:


> Hey which lang is ur signaure in and what does it mean.



Its Pinyin. Mandarin/Chinese written in Romanised script.


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## su-47

bumbgola said:


> How do you a stop a Chini tank?
> Ans: Shoot the guys pushing the guys pushing the tank..



Watch your language. Racist trolls are neither welcome nor tolerated here. 

Delete your post


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## Chill Bihari

su-47 said:


> Watch your language. Racist trolls are neither welcome nor tolerated here.
> 
> Delete your post



Whats racist in it.A chinese in hindi is indeed called a chinee.


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## bumbgola

su-47 said:


> Watch your language. Racist trolls are neither welcome nor tolerated here.
> 
> Delete your post



It takes seventeen muscles to smile and forty-three to frown. ~Unknown

You are free to report whatever you find offensive. The moderators are free to blank it out.



su-47 said:


> Racist trolls are neither welcome nor tolerated here.



Without naming names, I'm not on sure on that.


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## Bagee

last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when &#8212; almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia &#8212; the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90&#8217;s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army&#8217;s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued &#8212; allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production &#8212; that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia&#8217;s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia&#8217;s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India&#8217;s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan&#8217;s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India&#8217;s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army&#8217;s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident &#8212; and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan &#8212; that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90&#8217;s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn&#8217;t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90&#8217;s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world&#8217;s current tanks, other than France&#8217;s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India&#8217;s Arjun tank, too, has &#8220;hardened&#8221; electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India&#8217;s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s&#8217; drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

&#8220;It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,&#8221; says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. &#8220;Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.&#8221;


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## deckingraj

flaming arrow said:


> MY WORRY WOULD BE PAKISTAN'S "II COPRS ALSO KNOWN AS ARMY RESERVE SOUTH ITS PAKISTAN'S HEAVY ARMOUR BASED AT MULTAN. *IT HAS SOME SERIOUS CAPABILITY* .. BUT THIS IS WHERE ARJUN WILL BRING THE CHANGE



Would you mind sharing more about it???...Also please go easy on Caps...


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## flaming arrow

deckingraj said:


> Would you mind sharing more about it???...Also please go easy on Caps...



Raj that is not required right now,but will discuss it properly when required..rite now i would appreciate if any member comes up with specs of al khalid and some detailed info on it,i want to know more about Al khalid..
kindly help


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## deckingraj

flaming arrow said:


> Raj that is not required right now,but will discuss it properly when required..rite now i would appreciate if any member comes up with specs of al khalid and some detailed info on it,i want to know more about Al khalid..
> kindly help


It should be a good start...
HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 Main Battle Tank - History, Specifications and Picture - Military Tanks, Vehicles, and Artillery


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## coolmesh842

flaming arrow said:


> Arjun can be used for offensive role....BUT you simply cannot send a tank for an offensive operation because it better,infrastructure to support the tank is also required like tactical bridges,and logistical support required for sustaining a operation..delays to this project has done some damage but it has also given us something..
> Main proble higligted by he army has been logistics which will now be over come by MULTI YEAR purchasing of Arjun tank..i would blame the DGMF for not making it happen as they clearly missed this point(this shows they never expected arjun to make it they were in denial mode)every year unspent money is returned back to finance ministry if they would been logical and would have taken keen interest in desi beast major chunk of problem regarding to offensive role of arju would have not existed kher....better late then never



Exactly.. what i meant. I will never say arjun is not good enough for offensive roles but only at the moment. Thats why I said the era has just begun. 

With reactive armour protection system and ATGMs it will really be a monster for the foe.


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## KEETARP

ao333 said:


> Arjun is designed as a field tank, because India is not half industrialized, meaning it doesn't drive on roads, thus it needs significantly more power.




*What matters is P/W ratio for tank-
Arjun has 25
Type 96 China - Your country's MBT has 21 
T90 has 23 
Canada used Leopard - P/W ratio 21 in Afghanistan war*
All are Field tanks , by your logic T90 is also a crap. 
You only claimed Arjun is crap.



> *The Abrams aims at metro warfare; it drives on cement roads*



You mean to say in IRAQ war they build new Roads for warfare ,
i can see tanks operating in only desert there. 
Your logic is flawed - typical chinese troller nothing new.



> Now, the leopard is not a road tank. It is named so because of its supreme engine at the time (1.5khp over 3 decades ago). And didn't you know? Current Arjuns are powered by 1.4khp engines. The 1.5 ones are still in research.



*Even today P/W ratio of Leopard2 is still 24 and Weight is 62.3 
Arjuns weight is 58.5 ton
and as you said its not a road tank. 
By your logic this is also a crap since its underpowered . I see canada using same Tanks in Afghan war*



> Moreover, field tanks often drive slower, due to the pressure on the engines when acceleration is required to ride over inclined planes, thus, a lower average speed is achieved because the gaschargers need to cool.



And you only knew abt these things . 
DRDO and Indian Army + Whole world is dumb .
Only Chinese are smart hhhhhhhhhh.

I had enough of your B.S . No more discussion is possible with a mindless fellow like you.
Your sole aim is to earn Money - 50 Cents . 
I don't have such luxury

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## flaming arrow

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *What matters is P/W ratio for tank-
> Arjun has 25
> Type 96 China - Your country's MBT has 21
> T90 has 23
> Canada used Leopard - P/W ratio 21 in Afghanistan war*
> All are Field tanks , by your logic T90 is also a crap.
> You only claimed Arjun is crap.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean to say in IRAQ war they build new Roads for warfare ,
> i can see tanks operating in only desert there.
> Your logic is flawed - typical chinese troller nothing new.
> 
> 
> 
> *Even today P/W ratio of Leopard2 is still 24 and Weight is 62.3
> Arjuns weight is 58.5 ton
> and as you said its not a road tank.
> By your logic this is also a crap since its underpowered . I see canada using same Tanks in Afghan war*
> 
> 
> 
> And you only knew abt these things .
> DRDO and Indian Army + Whole world is dumb .
> Only Chinese are smart hhhhhhhhhh.
> 
> I had enough of your B.S . No more discussion is possible with a mindless fellow like you.
> Your sole aim is to earn Money - 50 Cents .
> I don't have such luxury



Laftaan saab leave him alone he is just earning his bred and butter 50 cent estyle


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## jha

This year we witnessed a series of successes , ARJUN wooing ARMY s surely in the top ranks of the list...

looks like TANK-EX's chances of being inducted is pretty grim because next logical step is ARJUN-2..

comments awaited..


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## chachachoudhary

Good news indeed.

I salute the diligent scientists of DRDO as their determination and never-say-die attitude finally helped them sail through all the Arjun bashing and they have done it with flying colors.

No doubt Arjun is a killing machine.

However, work should immediately be begun on next version and efforts should be made in the direction of involving private industries in tasks like engine development.

Also, if indian army wants to take full advantage of arjun's potential, I think a second assembly line needs to be set up to speed up the induction process.


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## MZUBAIR

Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.

India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......

These are killing machines ........


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## chachachoudhary

jha said:


> looks like TANK-EX's chances of being inducted is pretty grim because next logical step is ARJUN-2..
> 
> comments awaited..



I feel Tank-ex was just DRDO's possible upgrade/replacement for T-72 in indian army.

Indian army was and, in fact, is deeply worried with the sheer number of T-72 tanks, which suffer from crippling disadvantages varying from night blindness to inefficient armour. In fact, T-90's hurried induction was result of these shortcomings.

However, with army already going ahead with T-72 upgrade, Tank-ex maturing from prototype to functioning model is not a possibility.


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## satishkumarcsc

MZUBAIR said:


> Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.
> 
> India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......
> 
> These are killing machines ........



That's IA's problem. It will make easier for you to fight us you see.


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## deesu

MZUBAIR said:


> Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.
> 
> India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......
> 
> These are killing machines ........



According to your reasons, You as a pakistaani should be happy that Arjun is inducted into Indian army.....
Indian army have its plans, there should be some good reasons to get the arjuns...

Lets see in the future wheather the Arjuns are a failure or not in a war (I hope war doesn't happen though).


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## letsbefriends

MZUBAIR said:


> Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.
> 
> India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......
> 
> These are killing machines ........



oh really that means the ukranian T80U which u call as al khalid 1 and its upgraded part as al khalid 2
we have been doing dat since we had t55's then t72's n now t90's..and by the way arjun is an indigenous product..nw u guys will jump out arguing that tracks came from germany or LAHAT is israeli...but thats the thing indigenous means designed n developed at home..n there is no product in this world that is completely manufactured at home..even ur jf 17 engines comes from russia which u claim as indigenous..


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## Novice09

MZUBAIR said:


> Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.
> 
> India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......
> 
> These are killing machines ........



IA want to provide soft target to Al-Khalid, You are as naive as I'm


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## Arjun MBT

MZUBAIR said:


> Y Indian army is procuring Arjun tanks, Arjun is a failed project. This will take the Army men's life on risk.
> 
> India should learn to develop tanks like Pakistan developed ....take the example of Al-Khalid I and now Al_khalid II......
> 
> These are killing machines ........



It is a killing machine, but the only problem is It kills its own crew, We dont need a machine like that sorry...

And If Arjun has Outgunned T-90 in all the field trials, Then Iam sorry We dont need to prove you how much of a world class Product Should it be... And yes If you think Arjun is a soft target for You, Let it be, good for you


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## bumbgola

letsbefriends said:


> oh really that means the ukranian T80U which u call as al khalid 1 and its upgraded part as al khalid 2
> we have been doing dat since we had t55's then t72's n now t90's..and by the way arjun is an indigenous product..nw u guys will jump out arguing that tracks came from germany or LAHAT is israeli...but thats the thing indigenous means designed n developed at home..n there is no product in this world that is completely manufactured at home..even ur jf 17 engines comes from russia which u claim as indigenous..



Ukrainian T-80U isnt AK1, AK1 is marketed by NORINCO, a Chinese firm as MBT 2000, it is Type 90-IIM which shares 10&#37; of its components with the Type 59, 15% with Type 69, 20% with Type 85/88C, and is built with 55% new components. It incorporates design elements of T-72 (which developed into Type-80/85 tanks) and some western tanks. Ironically, Type 90 was rejected for Chinese service in favour of other designs.

The T-80 is from the Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau KMDB, introducing a gas turbine engine in the original model, and incorporating suspension components of the T-72. 

The T-80 is based on the T-64, which was a competing design at the time the T-72 was produced. The T-64 was Morozov's offering, and was initially intended to be the Soviet Union's primary MBT, while the T-72 was intended to be mainly produced for export partners and east-bloc satellite states. The T-72 is mechanically simpler and easier to service in the field, while it is not as well protected, and the manufacturing process is correspondingly simpler. 

This was enough of an advantage in the long term for the Soviet Union that the tank most produced was the T-72; obviously it better fit the Soviet ideal of quantity over quality; while the T-64 was the superior tank, it was more expensive and physically complex, and as such was not produced as much, and was never exported.

The T-64's story continues in the T-80. Morozov extrapolated on the design, including a gas turbine engine. This gave the tank a stunning power-to-weight ratio and made it easily the most mobile tank in the world (where it remains today, according to most experts). This is because while there are other tanks which boast similar power (the M1 series has a 1500-hp gas turbine as well, while it weighs in at a whopping 70 tons), the Soviet tanks are almost half the size and weight (hence the similarity in their looks; it's the national tank design ethic, pan shaped turrets, sharp hull fronts and low profiles).

It might be said the Russians are "desperate" to find export partners for it, which is not true; the Ukrainians are (Morozov is at KharkovKharkov ( rus: ) or Kharkiv ( ukr: &#1110 is the second largest city in Ukraine, a center of Kharkivs'ka oblast'. It is situated in the northeast of the country and has a population of two million. It is one of the main industrial, cultural and educatio, in Ukraine. In the Soviet era, it was in the USSR, but is now a Ukrainian factory). They have been moderately successful, selling units of two types to Pakistan, while the Russians are "desperate" to sell the T-90, at which they have also been to some degree successful, selling units to India.

The T-80's disadvantages are in the small size of the tank (about 1/2 to 3/4 that of the M1, depending on the aspect). The crew quarters are cramped and difficult to work in. Except in more modern versions like Oplot and Black Eagle, the ammunition is stored below the crew inside the crew compartment in the autoloader carousel, which means that when the tank is penetrated, the ammo cooks off, killing the crew and blowing the turret into the air. Due to the small turret, it is impossible to depress (negative elevation) the gun more than a few degrees when the tank is in defilade, and so the tank has a hard time firing from hull-down positions, though in newer versions like Oplot and Black Eagle, this is mitigated as well with entirely new turrets.

These disadvantages are endemic to Soviet tank design; nearly all Soviet tanks have them, which is to say that the only additional disadvantage to the T-80 series might be its mechanical complexity. While that was an issue in the days of the T-64's usurpation by the T-72, it is less so today, except as concerns potential third-world export partners. In any case, most such customers cannot afford T-80s, and the most recent (and even more expensive) prototypes have solved all of these problems and in many ways are similar to current Western offerings, excepting that they are considerably smaller.

It is very similar to the T-72, The T-72 a Soviet main battle tank entered production in 1971. It is a parallel design with the T-64. The T-72 design has been further developed as the T-90. Production History The T-72 was the main front-line tank used by the Red Army from 1970s to the c and T-64 in appearance. The T-80 is highly maneuverable and mobile, often referred to as the "flying tank". Current versions of the T-80 are comparable to the newest Western offerings.


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## ptldM3

This artical is more or less crap, like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy, the best part of the artical was when the author stated that the T-90 isn't capable of a shot from 5000M and that the Russians just "boast", well i found a video of a T-90 making a *5000M* shot. The shot happens between *3:55-4:11*.






The T-90 was evaluated and it had to pass trials, so did the Indians, Algerians, and Turkmenistanies buy a tank that coun't hit shots accurately or from a distance, and would Saudi Arabia be interested in the T-90 if it was such a "dud" if the Saudis do by the T-90 and sources claim they will then that says something about the T-90 esspecially when the Saudis already operate Abrams. The artical posted above is no different than articals that claim the F-22 is garbage.

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## bumbgola

T-90S trials in Malaysia


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## holysaturn

ptldM3 said:


> This artical is more or less crap, like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy, the best part of the artical was when the author stated that the T-90 isn't capable of a shot from 5000M and that the Russians just "boast", well i found a video of a T-90 making a *5000M* shot. The shot happen between *3:55-4:11*.
> 
> YouTube - T90 & T80 In Action
> 
> The T-90 was evaluated and it had to pass trials, so did the Indians, Algerians, and Turkmenistanies buy a tank that coun't hit shots accurately or from a distance, and would Saudi Arabia be interested in the T-90 if it was such a "dud" if the Saudis do by the T-90 and sources claim they will then that says something about the T-90 esspecially when the Saudis already operate Abrams. The artical posted above is no different than articals that claim the F-22 is garbage.



that was a good reply but the video doesnt specify it was 5000m.........but then in the video it was reflecks missile and not a unguided round.......thats the disadvantage of the t-90 it cannot fire at long range without a guided missile(which can be fooled by counter measures while a fspads,heat,du round cannot be fooled) ...its gun,fcs are not capable of firing at targets long ranges.........whilethe arjun with its rifled gun can.here are the details

Google Image Result for http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/images/mbt1.jpg


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## ptldM3

holysaturn said:


> that was a good reply but the video doesnt specify it was 5000m.........



Yes it did, it clearly said 5000m, it takes approximately 16 seconds to hit a target at that range, it took exactly 16 seconds to hit the target, so it was a 5000m shot.






holysaturn said:


> but then in the video it was reflecks missile and not a unguided round.......thats the disadvantage of the t-90 it cannot fire at long range without a guided missile(which can be fooled by counter measures while a fspads,heat,du round cannot be fooled) ...its gun,fcs are not capable of firing at targets long ranges.........whilethe arjun with its rifled gun can.here are the details




If you read you artical carefully you would know that it stated that the T-90 used "Indian ammunition" this is important because the accuracy of ammunition varies drastically depending on the manufacturer be it 125mm rounds or a .22 rounds, i can speak from experience on this one. The India T-90s may have difficulty hitting targets from a distance but this does not necessarily mean it's the guns fault or the FCSs fault but rather it could simply mean that thr tank uses poor quality ammunition. Now to address your statement about the T-90s 125mm gun having poor range, the T-64B was able to hit targets from 2000 meters, so i can imagine the T-90 would have no problems hitting tagets at the same range esspecially when the T-90 uses a 4-section thermal sleeve to prevent the barrel from overheating and a much better fire and control system. If we rule out poor ammunition than the only other problem with the T-90 could be that the fire and control system isn't properly working in the hot Indian climate. The truth is people bend the truth so i would not be suprised if the T-90 is is vary capably of long range hit afterall i will beleive a T-90 tanker over a blogger anyday; moreover, if a few tanks perform poorly does it mean all T-90s have poor long range accuracy? No, poor accuracy could be anything from poor crew training to poor ammunition to poor maintanance.


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## bumbgola

ptldM3 said:


> i will beleive a T-90 tanker over a blogger anyday



If you are referring to Col (Retd) Ajai Shukla and Broadsword then I must add that he is not just any blogger, he is an ex-tank man himself. More importantly whatever is published on the blog is also published in a widely read daily newspaper Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 so while what you say may/may not be true it is inappropriate to dismiss his posts as blog-only.


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## ptldM3

bumbgola said:


> If you are referring to Col (Retd) Ajai Shukla and Broadsword then I must add that he is not just any blogger, he is an ex-tank man himself. More importantly whatever is published on the blog is also published in a widely read daily newspaper Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 so while what you say may/may not be true it is inappropriate to dismiss his posts as blog-only.



I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?


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## holysaturn

ok i will put it this way t-90 is a good tank in the russian army......accuracy:not well suited for indian rounds(corrections not possible bcoz of contractual obligations),arjun better with indian rounds............protection :t-90 has no seperate crew compartment,no blow out panels,,,,,arjun has both..........maintanence:t-90 wins hands down..........crew comfort:arjun wins hands down...........industry benefts and foriegn exchange:arjun remains a cut above..........overall arjun suits indian tankmen and the taxpayers better than any t-90 anyday.


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## bumbgola

ptldM3 said:


> I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?



Here is the relevant part of his reply to this qs. unashamedly plagiarized from Broadsword: India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

There are no AUTHENTIC figures that I have come across for the RCS of the Rafale and the Eurofighter, only unattributed speculation. But I hear, from people who ought to know, that their RCS is not below 0.5.

This talk about metal golf balls and metal marbles does not impress me ( http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx ). It could be disinformation, sales talk, vendor propaganda, or a mixture of all of them. A platform's real RCS is seldom revealed.

The figure that I have is from an MoD source, who has, in turn, heard it from a Sukhoi designer at KnAAPO. I would not bet my life that the figure is entirely accurate.

Anonymous 08:40
"you need to check your figures on RCS of PAKFA
u are quoting 100 times more. double check. again"

The figure of 0.5 is certainly not that far off the mark.

deep.blue: I agree with you. This bird has a great deal of design change ahead of it and the RCS will almost certainly get a lot better in the future.


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## flaming arrow

> like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy,



my dear friend,the accuracy of arjun is better then t-90 at any given day this was well placed the parliamentary table report..also u heard from ur tanker friend that t-90 has no accuracy problem,iam not saying that t-90 is not a good tank but its electronic systems simply gave away in the heat of thar desert just to remind you we had to put an a.c in it so that the thermal imagner can work properly..
yes trials were conducted but as i have mentioned in my earlier post that the purchase of t-90 was not liked by then prime minsiter of india Mr,HD DEWEGODA,kindly read back a few pages of this thread,i have my friends who took part in the trials both operating T-90 and Arjun..i wont say what happened i would just say that you should read what the news comes beacuse if i start telling you where all the T-90 failed against Arjun you will not like it Just like the INDIAN ARMY..
also mind you that IA has been the biggest batter for the T-90 isnt it???
iam sure you have been going through the ARJUN threads reports of failure,that change this change the army tried all make sure they dont land up getting a product having weakness and see all the systems have been hardened and they performed well during the trials outgunning and out running the T-90

*NOW READ IS A MUST FOR OUR PAKISTANI FRIENDS :pakistan*:

On October 20, 1999 extensive trials of T-80U and T-90 protection from various types of threats were conducted at TsNIIO 643a Testing Grounds. The tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at frontal projections of T-80U and T-90 MBTs both protected with Kontakt-V ERA and stripped of it.


Infantry ATGLs (fired at a distance of 40m)
o RPG-7 (using advanced 105mm grenade PG-7VR with a tandem warhead, pen. 650mm RHA)
o RPG-26 (disposable launcher, pen. >500mm RHA)
o RPG-29 (advanced 105mm launcher, pen. 750mm RHA)
* ATGMs (fired at a distance of 600m)
o Malyutka-2 (pen. >600mm RHA)
o Metis (pen. 460mm RHA)
o Konkurs (pen. 650mm RHA)
o Kornet (pen. >850mm RHA)
* APFSDS (fired from T-80U MBT at a distance of 1,500m, the most likely round is 3BM42)

The trials yielded the following outcome:

* ATGLs
o T-90: RPG-29 produced a total of 3 penetrations.
No other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target.
o T-80U: RPG-29 penetrated 3 times with ERA, all 5 times without ERA.
Of all other grenades, one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped target.
* ATGMs
o T-90: No ATGMs could penetrate the ERA-equipped target. One Kornet ATGM penetrated the stripped {without kontakt-5 ERA} target.
o T-80U: 2 Kornet ATGMs penetrated the ERA-equipped target, all 5 penetrated the stripped target.
No other ATGMs could penetrate.
* APFSDS
o T-90: ERA-equipped target could not be penetrated. Furthermore, after firing the crew entered the vehicle, activated it and was able to execute the firing sequence.
Without ERA, one round penetrated.
o T-80U (data available only for stripped target): One round almost penetrated (3mm hole in the inner lining, no visible equipment damage); two penetrated to 1/2 thickness; one missed the target completely; one hit the gun
T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99

THE ABOVE WAS TO SHOW THAT T-90's armour offes better protection then the most potent tank in  armoury i.e T-80 UD

*NOW COMPARING ARJUN'S AND T-90's ARMOUR*

the basic arjun armour of 1980's, without ERA could defeat the 3BM-42 round. the modern T-90 armour of 1999 (it has not changed since) can't defeat the 3BM42 (which is anyway an obsolete round in today's world) without ERA. one can only wonder how it will fare against modern APFSDS rounds.
The Kanchan Armor | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

some snippets from trial according to sources

Arjun Vs T-90

Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Targets Assigned) No.of Successful Hits

Before Noon T-90 (11) 9
Noon T-90 (11) 4
Night time T-90 (15) 7

Before Noon Arjun (11) 11
Noon Arjun (11) 10
Night time Arjun (15) 15

(T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial)

T-90s got around 34% shot on target while on move during the afternoon session
while Arjuns had onlee 1 miss from eleven fired on the move.
*
TESTING DURING MOVE AND SHOT FIRED*

-Both Tanks were to traverse over Sand dunes and wet mud shallow ponds
to reach a Squarish area where a 20x20cm target
was placed, and the Tanks were to fire 3 rounds into that 20x20.
Time started as soon as Tanks started moving.

T90 was slow to climb the Dunes and was slower to reach the Target area,
and the Tank came to complete stop before acquiring and firing.

Arjun was quicker to the Target area and the Crews acquired and fired
while still around the edge of the Target area while still on the move.

this act was deemed as cheating by Arjun crew, and later on this test was nullified.

*ARJUN'S SURVIVABILITY AND SOME UNKNOWN FACTS*

The Arjun tank uses the indigenously
designed and developed Kanchan
composite armor which is designed to
provide protection superior to similar
amour on other tanks. The Kanchan
amour has been successfully tested
against fire from APFSDS, HEAT and
HESH ammunitions.

The integrated fire and explosion
suppression system aboard Arjun is
state-of-the-art technology with infrared
detectors, that can detect and
suppress hydro-carbon fuel/explosion
within 200 milliseconds in the crew
compartment and within 15 seconds in
the engine compartment. Arjun uses the Halon fire extinguishing system,
similar to the one in the Abrams MBT,
which can automatically activate
within 2 milliseconds of either a flash
or a fire. The tank also has protection
against nuclear, biological and
chemical weapons.
However, the specialty of the tank lies
in its battlefield management system
(BMS) which facilitates tactical
command as well as control and
communications between one tank
and the rest of the team. A touch
screen BMS for quick access, and an
integrated Global Positioning System,
enhances the efficiency of the tanks.
Like most tanks in this category, the
Arjun tank also accommodates four
crew members. While a three member
crew with autoloaders could have
increased the rate of fire from the
currently 6-8 rounds/minute, a four
member crew helps the crew to
undertake more maintenance related
work with less fatigue.
Finally, the indigenously developed
hydro-pneumatic suspension provides
excellent crew comfort that prevents
fatigue despite extended runs.
http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf

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## KEETARP

ptldM3 said:


> I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?



Buddy , you must be having access to Paralay and other russain forums.
Whats their take on RCS of FGFA/Pak-FA

Bcoz whatever Literature i read on stealth by Russian scientist's esp ITAE research paper , they focused more on using 3 layered robotic RAM coatings and Ionized selective frequency gas filter for reducing RCS.

I mean shaping and IR- reduction of plume of gases had less attention.

What's you personal opinion on angles and corners of this machine (shaping), 
i mean the way people have bashed this machine on this forum that it has huge RCS and even worse than F15SE .( expected bcoz most of them are anti-Russian)
I want Russian point of view on this


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## RAHUL INDIAN

T-90 is always a good tank... so no doubt about that....so it doesnt matter if India has already ordered large number of them...IT is good time for India that we have developned a good tank in Arjun...though coz it is dev by India itself so it suits some of the requirements better then T-90 for India specifically in the Desert conditions......

so both are excellent machines.... 

T-90 was always there and now India has something of its own also in Arjun.....it is to Ajun's credit and the team behind it that it performed liek it did against a well established peer in T-90.....Also Arjun is designed specifically keeping Indian requirements in mind and that it why it is performing so well in the desert conditions....

I am proud that India has developed such a beast of a Tank....


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## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?



No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.

Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.

Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams


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## gogbot

Proud of both our Machines

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## holysaturn

faithfulguy said:


> No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.
> 
> *Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process.* It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.
> 
> Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams



i appreciate ur confidence to underestimate india but if that is the case then one of ur neighbours(may be even u) wud be driving a poor quality automobile.


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## bumbgola

faithfulguy said:


> No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.



Sure.



faithfulguy said:


> Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.



124 is a large number. Army is a demanding customer. If and when there is an issue you will be the first to know.



faithfulguy said:


> Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams



Arjun is as good.


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## letsbefriends

bumbgola said:


> Ukrainian T-80U isnt AK1, AK1 is marketed by NORINCO, a Chinese firm as MBT 2000, it is Type 90-IIM which shares 10% of its components with the Type 59, 15% with Type 69, 20% with Type 85/88C, and is built with 55% new components. It incorporates design elements of T-72 (which developed into Type-80/85 tanks) and some western tanks. Ironically, Type 90 was rejected for Chinese service in favour of other designs.
> 
> The T-80 is from the Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau KMDB, introducing a gas turbine engine in the original model, and incorporating suspension components of the T-72.
> 
> The T-80 is based on the T-64, which was a competing design at the time the T-72 was produced. The T-64 was Morozov's offering, and was initially intended to be the Soviet Union's primary MBT, while the T-72 was intended to be mainly produced for export partners and east-bloc satellite states. The T-72 is mechanically simpler and easier to service in the field, while it is not as well protected, and the manufacturing process is correspondingly simpler.
> 
> This was enough of an advantage in the long term for the Soviet Union that the tank most produced was the T-72; obviously it better fit the Soviet ideal of quantity over quality; while the T-64 was the superior tank, it was more expensive and physically complex, and as such was not produced as much, and was never exported.
> 
> The T-64's story continues in the T-80. Morozov extrapolated on the design, including a gas turbine engine. This gave the tank a stunning power-to-weight ratio and made it easily the most mobile tank in the world (where it remains today, according to most experts). This is because while there are other tanks which boast similar power (the M1 series has a 1500-hp gas turbine as well, while it weighs in at a whopping 70 tons), the Soviet tanks are almost half the size and weight (hence the similarity in their looks; it's the national tank design ethic, pan shaped turrets, sharp hull fronts and low profiles).
> 
> It might be said the Russians are "desperate" to find export partners for it, which is not true; the Ukrainians are (Morozov is at KharkovKharkov ( rus: ) or Kharkiv ( ukr: &#1110 is the second largest city in Ukraine, a center of Kharkivs'ka oblast'. It is situated in the northeast of the country and has a population of two million. It is one of the main industrial, cultural and educatio, in Ukraine. In the Soviet era, it was in the USSR, but is now a Ukrainian factory). They have been moderately successful, selling units of two types to Pakistan, while the Russians are "desperate" to sell the T-90, at which they have also been to some degree successful, selling units to India.
> 
> The T-80's disadvantages are in the small size of the tank (about 1/2 to 3/4 that of the M1, depending on the aspect). The crew quarters are cramped and difficult to work in. Except in more modern versions like Oplot and Black Eagle, the ammunition is stored below the crew inside the crew compartment in the autoloader carousel, which means that when the tank is penetrated, the ammo cooks off, killing the crew and blowing the turret into the air. Due to the small turret, it is impossible to depress (negative elevation) the gun more than a few degrees when the tank is in defilade, and so the tank has a hard time firing from hull-down positions, though in newer versions like Oplot and Black Eagle, this is mitigated as well with entirely new turrets.
> 
> These disadvantages are endemic to Soviet tank design; nearly all Soviet tanks have them, which is to say that the only additional disadvantage to the T-80 series might be its mechanical complexity. While that was an issue in the days of the T-64's usurpation by the T-72, it is less so today, except as concerns potential third-world export partners. In any case, most such customers cannot afford T-80s, and the most recent (and even more expensive) prototypes have solved all of these problems and in many ways are similar to current Western offerings, excepting that they are considerably smaller.
> 
> It is very similar to the T-72, The T-72 a Soviet main battle tank entered production in 1971. It is a parallel design with the T-64. The T-72 design has been further developed as the T-90. Production History The T-72 was the main front-line tank used by the Red Army from 1970s to the c and T-64 in appearance. The T-80 is highly maneuverable and mobile, often referred to as the "flying tank". Current versions of the T-80 are comparable to the newest Western offerings.



close down the wikipedia for once..jst kidding thnks for the info though the whole point was arjun is way better than al khalid or any other tank in pak armour n also chinese armour


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## jha



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## jha

The next batch is supposed to be capable of firing LAHATs..that would be one great thing because RIFLE GUNs are not capable of firing missiles..

i just wonder what accuracy will that bring...no wonder ISRAELIs were speechless after evaluating its gun...

so to DRDO for this...maybe this success helps them in speeden up other halted projects..

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## faithfulguy

bumbgola said:


> Arjun is as good.



This must be the joke of the day. 
No wonder Indians here believe that made in India stuff is the best. Base on the statement above. Its important to have a realistic view of the facts.


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## TheBraveHeart

faithfulguy said:


> This must be the joke of the day.
> No wonder Indians here believe that made in India stuff is the best. Base on the statement above. Its important to have a realistic view of the facts.



And u may be the joker of the millennium for always writing useless crap bashing Indian people,industry, products and also working as a part time US weapons marketer...as if there are any takers..


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## Prowler

Lol China even reverse Engineered the "Pulsar" and sold it as Gulsar in Sri Lanka and they lost it at court hearing  These guys are so dumb


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## flaming arrow

faithfulguy said:


> No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.
> 
> Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.
> 
> Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams


 UR a pure troll isnt it,still i would clear ur doubts u said that indian defence indistry has manufacturing issue's we are already manufacturing T-90 in our country...and fighter jet for that matter...
we were not asking you about the chinese quality so dnt worry about us...stay happy making ur rip off copies of everything u can get ur hands on
why will we choose a ABRAHAM,we dnt need it..Thanks for your suggestion though your one carind heart HINDI CHINI BHAI BHAI ???








[/URL][/IMG]


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## faithfulguy

TheBraveHeart said:


> And u may be the joker of the millennium for always writing useless crap bashing Indian people,industry, products and also working as a part time US weapons marketer...as if there are any takers..



I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).


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## faithfulguy

flaming arrow said:


> UR a pure troll isnt it,still i would clear ur doubts u said that indian defence indistry has manufacturing issue's we are already manufacturing T-90 in our country...and fighter jet for that matter...
> we were not asking you about the chinese quality so dnt worry about us...stay happy making ur rip off copies of everything u can get ur hands on
> why will we choose a ABRAHAM,we dnt need it..Thanks for your suggestion though your one carind heart HINDI CHINI BHAI BHAI ???



Well, I hope India is not using the same assembly line to build both tanks.

I just think that your hard earn money should go the biggest bang. That means use stuff from 

Good like with Arjun. The Pakistani guys can't be more happier.


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## deckingraj

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).



Buddy i have been finding these posts from you in almost every thread....Are you in any delusion that Indian members on this forum have the authority to decide what India should buy and from where???? I mean there has to be some monetary(or may be other kind) of benefit for you to keep on with the same rhetoric on every thread related to India...

Would you please mind telling if you are some US agent trying to sell weapons to India and have a delusion that by the same  you can get win some contracts??


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## Prowler

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).


 
How did you arrive at the conclusion that a month ago we considered the Arjun as a failure?

Don't talk baseless BS....The Indian Army was never in favor of the Arjun ,it did have it's drawbacks.Then they decided to pit the tanks against each other to see which performed well.Now the Army has finally fallen for the Arjun when they found that the performance was overall better than the T-90.
And yes T-90 is one of the best tank in the world no doubt about that.And secondly why are you being so desperate with the lines about Pakistan having 1/10th the population of India? Despite having such a less population why is that country still facing economic problems....and oh please you have no right to represent the Russian's,Chinese and other Asian's and American's since this is your own opinion not theirs...kapish??


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## RAHUL INDIAN

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).



Besides trolling what else do u do..??

How BIASED u are is visible from ur comments.... for u the only thing that matters is it is made in India...

and coz u r a chinese 50 cent member, so it is obviously ur moral duty to criticize it...

But rather wory about ur country Chinese tank coz if against Arjun ur factories will run out of production capacity to make up for replacements.....

to the point, if you cannot prove ur allegations above then keep quite...

*and for ur Infomation Chinese made products are loathed the world over.......the first thing when i go to shop and someone says is chinese made, i say no please show smthng good.......*


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## Prowler

*A CAD Representation of the Arjun Tank*


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## RAHUL INDIAN

new guys if u dont know him, he is senior chinese 50 cent member(google 50 cent party), maybe is paid slighly more then the new ones.....

just look at the time he has to post all day on all India related threads, and then the bashing he gets for his baseless hate for India...


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## RAHUL INDIAN

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).



how difficult it is for u to undstnd class 1st stuff that earlier some ppl were baised against it... and just rejected it without proper evaluation...

the result of proper trials is now cmng out, and so the truth is comng out, that Arjun is one hell of a BEAST.....

*p.s: dont ask again n again the same thing.... coz i know u know whats written above but just for ur propaganda thing u will write the above again on many threads...*


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## ramu

"The comfort levels in driving Arjun is good and I feel zero stress after driving it for 3 hours !" -> These are the words of an Indian defence personnel who has also had acquaintance with T 90.

I am sure, we have done something right.

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## Gene

It will drive the effort to indigenization our armed forces.DRDO for the first time building its tank, fighter of its own. It has gained many things such as the basic technologies which are associated with this.
But the next time when it builds any platform, will certainly be unique in the world ..


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## faithfulguy

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> new guys if u dont know him, he is senior chinese 50 cent member(google 50 cent party), maybe is paid slighly more then the new ones.....
> 
> just look at the time he has to post all day on all India related threads, and then the bashing he gets for his baseless hate for India...



First of all, I'm not from China. So get your facts straight. But I guess you don't care about facts as most of your post are just useless 

Present the truth and fact and discuss the topic instead of attacking the poster. Stick to the topic.


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## faithfulguy

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> how difficult it is for u to undstnd class 1st stuff that earlier some ppl were baised against it... and just rejected it without proper evaluation...
> 
> the result of proper trials is now cmng out, and so the truth is comng out, that Arjun is one hell of a BEAST.....
> 
> *p.s: dont ask again n again the same thing.... coz i know u know whats written above but just for ur propaganda thing u will write the above again on many threads...*



Even Russian members doubt about the performance of T-90 in the so call test. Arjun was under pressure to succeed so T-90 must made to lose. A fabricated test. No doubt.


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## RAHUL INDIAN

faithfulguy said:


> But I guess you don't care about facts as most of your post are just useless
> 
> Present the truth and fact and discuss the topic instead of attacking the poster. Stick to the topic.





faithfulguy said:


> Even Russian members doubt about the performance of T-90 in the so call test. Arjun was under pressure to succeed so T-90 must made to lose. A fabricated test. No doubt.




It was in desert condition where the T-90 had some problems, whereas the Arjun being tailor made for Indian conditions did extremely well.....

So its not that T-90 is bad... so 

1)get this in ur mind.
2) India have managed to product a tank which is world class and among the best in the world.......

T- 90 is no doubt good....BUT WE ARE PROUD OF ARJUN WHICH IS ALSO AMONG THE BEST... 
also does it need to be repeated 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times for you ONLY that the Army itself rejected the Arjun so there is no way for them to fabricate the test results in favour of Arjun.....

The trials were called up ed Arjun by DRDO to prove the few ppl who doubt arjun as wrong and they did a heck of a job.....

Arjun is among world class tanks....and is a beast......now ask ur chinese ppl to produce smthng like it(which they cant) or try to copy paste it(which will always be inferior to original) also.....


*But I guess you don't care about facts as most of your post are just useless 
Present the truth and fact *

*Also ur pattern of doing propaganda is similar to a 50 cent member and u can hide behind ur flag but ur posts prove who u are.....

just ask for a vote from ppl on this forum... u will know evryone knows that.....*


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## genetic_nomad

faithfulguy said:


> I'm certainly India make good stuff in the eyes of Indians. Its just that they are relatively not as good as American stuff. To say that Arjun, which just 1 month ago most Indians recognized as a total failure, is comparable to the universally recognized best tank in the world is just beyond comprehension. No wonder Pakistanis, living in a country 1/10 the population of Indian, has no respect for Indians defense industry and military capabilities. Not to mention the Russian, Chinese, other Asians, and Americans(including this Taiwanese American).



fair points faith. I'd point out a few things though, Abrams (and others) have never been in comparative trials against Arjun. So we can only some what speculate on their perceived better quality vis-a-vis Arjun. Part of the reason why we think Abrams would (in most likelyhood) be better than Arjun is that it is made by private companies which are usually more competitive and hence churnout better products and they are quicker at resolving issues and continual development. Arjun on the other hand is made by govt. owned companies which unfortunately are slower and a lot less efficient with regards to design, development & enhancement.

Now as far as claiming Arjun as a world-class tank, it is basically marketing (every defense company does that) so let's not take it too seriously. I can tell you are smart enough to distinguish between such facts and ordinary fan-boy perceptions (they exist in every camp).

To end, all I'd say is Arjun was an attempt to make something to counter our current adversarial scenario, which it seems to have accomplished, albeit quite late and after much delays.


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## Prowler

faithfulguy said:


> Even Russian members doubt about the performance of T-90 in the so call test. Arjun was under pressure to succeed so T-90 must made to lose. A fabricated test. No doubt.



Too bad those Russian members were not invited to the test so that they could see for themselves the results...

And for your info the test cannot be fabricated because the test's were conducted by the Army who themselves never liked the Arjun to begin with,at least the higher ranking babus didn't.After the test concluded they had no option but to eat their own words.

And if you have no proof about any fabrication works that underwent during the tests please stop spewing venom and for once admit that the Arjun passed with flying colors unless you want that 5 mao too badly.


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## RAHUL INDIAN

genetic_nomad said:


> fair points faith. I'd point out a few things though, Abrams (and others) have never been in comparative trials against Arjun. So we can only some what speculate on their perceived better quality vis-a-vis Arjun. Part of the reason why we think Abrams would (in most likelyhood) be better than Arjun is that it is made by private companies which are usually more competitive and hence churnout better products and they are quicker at resolving issues and continual development. Arjun on the other hand is made by govt. owned companies which unfortunately are slower and a lot less efficient with regards to design, development & enhancement.
> 
> Now as far as claiming Arjun as a world-class tank, it is basically marketing (every defense company does that) so let's not take it too seriously. I can tell you are smart enough to distinguish between such facts and ordinary fan-boy perceptions (they exist in every camp).
> 
> To end, all I'd say is Arjun was an attempt to make something to counter our current adversarial scenario, which it seems to have accomplished, albeit quite late and after much delays.



i will differ with you on this....

the amount of effort that went into Arjun is awesome....

the differnce b/w private and public companies would be that the provate may have produced it some years earlier......whereas with the public ones has taken slightly longer as compared to the private ones....

thats just it....REST IS dependent on scientific capability and the specs to which the tank is made......so if the Specs are there and Arjun is fair to those there is no doubt to beleive that it is among the best......


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## Prowler

And I also don't get it why he claimed that the Arjun was under pressure lol.To be honest there is already a huuuge order on the T-90 to Russian's and Army only wants the best....after all the glitches in the Arjun was fixed they were surprised about the outcome.So even if the Arjun lost there won't be any pressure on the Army to go looking to news tanks since the T-90 is already in queue.


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## prototype

RAHUL INDIAN said:


> new guys if u dont know him, he is senior chinese 50 cent member(google 50 cent party), maybe is paid slighly more then the new ones.....
> 
> just look at the time he has to post all day on all India related threads, and then the bashing he gets for his baseless hate for India...



no actually after so many days in the forum i am still not clear he is really a *50 CENT member* or a real taiwanese 

if chinese he is supossed to troll

if taiwanese the slave is supposed to show loyality to the american master

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## RAHUL INDIAN

Prowler said:


> And I also don't get it why he claimed that the Arjun was under pressure lol.To be honest there is already a huuuge order on the T-90 to Russian's and Army only wants the best....after all the glitches in the Arjun was fixed they were surprised about the outcome.So even if the Arjun lost there won't be any pressure on the Army to go looking to news tanks since the T-90 is already in queue.



yes dear thats true even if he has no source based on his DRIVYA DRISTI
he will say such things... when all the FACTS point to the contrary...

coz his reason to be here is to do propaganda for his masters....


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## Bagee

trust me, we (that is those who are argung for arjun and against the T-90) would not have been up in arms if it was a modern tank the IA bought, something of the leopard or the abrams category in stead of the T-72 series which are death traps on wheels irrespective of whatever anyone tells you.

these are the irrefutable facts :

>> in 1991 gulf war showed without an iota of doubt the glaring vulnerability of russian philosophy tanks when it came to crew protection, as also overall protection. 

>> a couple of dozen abrams tanks were hit in GW1, there was only one fatality IIRC in all those incidents. the T-72's crews on the other hand died a violent fiery death almost every incident when their tanks got hit. and these were by and large the lion of babylon tank (an iraqi version of the T-72)which even then had better armour than the Indian Army T-72.


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## chachachoudhary

Members, please do not reply, take cognizance or get irritated by anything that this "fateful" guy (or girl) comments.

This creature will vomit in every serious discussion and try to derail smooth flow of information.

Please ignore him henceforth as if he does not exist and focus on the topic only.


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## gogbot

^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me offer some Assistance 



chachachoudhary said:


> Members, please do not reply, take cognizance or get irritated by anything that this "fateful" guy (or girl) comments.
> 
> This creature will vomit in every serious discussion and try to derail smooth flow of information.
> 
> Please ignore him henceforth as if he does not exist and focus on the topic only.



Faithful guys =  India 

you will get nothing out of him but that combination.


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## ptldM3

flaming arrow said:


> my dear friend,the accuracy of arjun is better then t-90 at any given day this was well placed the parliamentary table report..



I never said anything about the Arjun not being accurate infact i think it's a very good tank, also has the Indian army released anything official regarding the performance of both tanks or is all of this news from Shakala? Arjun has nothing to do with my argument, the T-90 is the center of my argument.

There is alot of distorted and out right incorrect information regarding the T-90 and its accuracy so i took the liberty to inform the masses, there is alot of distortion saying that the T-90 could hardly hit targets from 1600km with the main gun and that the ATGMs could not hit targets a 5000km, well that's fairy tails, read this:

T-90 - a knol by Anonymous


> During one of the displays, T-90 struck *7 targets in 54 seconds*. All were at the *distance between 1500-2500m and the tank was on the move at 25km/h*. While returning to position, the layer gave the control to the commander who used the gunner mode to fire to the rear of the vehicle and *hit 4 more targets*.



As far as i'm aware that's an un-offical record, as you can see the T-90 hit 11 out of 11 on the move and in a short span, more imortant because of the quick rate of fire the barrel was hot; consiquently, the accuracy did not suffer, so the excuse of the T-90s barrel performing poorly and te T-90 not being able to accurately hit shots with a hot barrel is busted.


This should quiet people that are hell bent on claiming the T-90 isn't capable of hitting targets from 5000km:


T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
Regarding ATGMs:


> *during the official trials of T-90, all of the ammunitions were fired by young conscripts who just finished training. All of the rounds &#8211; 24 of them, hit targets at a distance of 4-5km.*




The T-90 can hit targets in hot temperatures and it can do it at night and it can do it at long ranges (in the hands of Indian crews):


T-90 - a knol by Anonymous


> Indian crews quickly mastered the T-90S, they also did not have problems with the fire control and thermo-vision systems. Just after several training sessions Lt. *Kapur of the Indian army acted as layer who accurately fired on to the targets at 2500-3000m. Officers from one of the panzer corps needed 20 minutes to familiarize with T-90S and successfully complete the task of destroying 4 targets at night from a distance of 3100m at an ambient temperature of 47&#176;C.*







flaming arrow said:


> Arjun Vs T-90
> 
> Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Targets Assigned) No.of Successful Hits
> 
> Before Noon T-90 (11) 9
> Noon T-90 (11) 4
> Night time T-90 (15) 7
> 
> Before Noon Arjun (11) 11
> Noon Arjun (11) 10
> Night time Arjun (15) 15



If this has any truth to it than the ammuniton, maintanance, and crew have to be taken into account because the fact is i have proven the T-90 can hit targets very very very accurately and at very long distances; moreover, it can do this while on the move, the T-90 has proven time and time again in various trials around the world that it can hit targets accurately...if the T-90 was not able to pass trials not the Russians, nor the Indians would field them plain and simple . If all of the factors i have listed can be ruled out than something isn't right...



bumbgola said:


> Here is the relevant part of his reply to this qs. unashamedly plagiarized from Broadsword: India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter
> 
> There are no AUTHENTIC figures that I have come across for the RCS of the Rafale and the Eurofighter, only unattributed speculation. But I hear, from people who ought to know, that their RCS is not below 0.5.
> 
> 
> 
> This talk about metal golf balls and metal marbles does not impress me ( Warplanes: F-22 Stealth Ability Revealed by USAF ). It could be disinformation, sales talk, vendor propaganda, or a mixture of all of them. A platform's real RCS is seldom revealed.
> 
> The figure that I have is from an MoD source, who has, in turn, heard it from a Sukhoi designer at KnAAPO. I would not bet my life that the figure is entirely accurate.
> 
> Anonymous 08:40
> "you need to check your figures on RCS of PAKFA
> u are quoting 100 times more. double check. again"
> 
> The figure of 0.5 is certainly not that far off the mark.
> 
> deep.blue: I agree with you. This bird has a great deal of design change ahead of it and the RCS will almost certainly get a lot better in the future.



You just gave me a link to two bloggs and then you quoted someones post, when did quoting people's replies count as a credible source? Like i stated earlier the very unstealthy SU-47 with conventional nose, vertical stabs, FSW, conards, and convetinal intakes achieved a rcs of 0.3, so the butt-heads that keep saying the pak-fa only has a rcs of 0.5 are a laughing stock, esspecially when you consider all of the 'stealthy' features the pak-fa has and the fact that Russia has been able to reduce the rcs of aircraft from 10-20 times just with RAM.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Buddy , you must be having access to Paralay and other russain forums.
> Whats their take on RCS of FGFA/Pak-FA



I just scan through the forum for pictues and i havn't visited in a while, if you us google tanslator you can read trough the whole forum.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Bcoz whatever Literature i read on stealth by Russian scientist's esp ITAE research paper , they focused more on using 3 layered robotic RAM coatings and Ionized selective frequency gas filter for reducing RCS.
> 
> I mean shaping and IR- reduction of plume of gases had less attention.
> 
> What's you personal opinion on angles and corners of this machine (shaping),
> i mean the way people have bashed this machine on this forum that it has huge RCS and even worse than F15SE .( expected bcoz most of them are anti-Russian)
> I want Russian point of view on this



Well not much can be determined about the pak-fa's rcs just by looking at the aircraft; however, it does seem to have all of the features of a stealth aircraft, the one part of the pak-fa that people seem credical of is the underbelly and this is because it's not flat or in other words it has two 'humps' but if you study aircraft such as the Y-23, B-2, and the F-35 they too have these 'humps' the only difference is the 'humps' are on top of the fusalage. With Russia's progress in ram i would not be too woried. Moreover, Sukhoi prototypes are always far cries from the final production-look at the original SU-27.

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## faithfulguy

ptldM3 said:


> I never said anything about the Arjun not being accurate infact i think it's a very good tank, also has the Indian army released anything official regarding the performance of both tanks or is all of this news from Shakala? Arjun has nothing to do with my argument, the T-90 is the center of my argument.
> 
> There is alot of distorted and out right incorrect information regarding the T-90 and its accuracy so i took the liberty to inform the masses, there is alot of distortion saying that the T-90 could hardly hit targets from 1600km with the main gun and that the ATGMs could not hit targets a 5000km, well that's fairy tails, read this:
> 
> T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
> 
> 
> As far as i'm aware that's an un-offical record, as you can see the T-90 hit 11 out of 11 on the move and in a short span, more imortant because of the quick rate of fire the barrel was hot; consiquently, the accuracy did not suffer, so the excuse of the T-90s barrel performing poorly and te T-90 not being able to accurately hit shots with a hot barrel is busted.
> 
> 
> This should quiet people that are hell bent on claiming the T-90 isn't capable of hitting targets from 5000km:
> 
> 
> T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
> Regarding ATGMs:
> 
> 
> The T-90 can hit targets in hot temperatures and it can do it at night and it can do it at long ranges (in the hands of Indian crews):
> 
> 
> T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a like for this? Also if this has any truth to it than the ammuniton, maintanance, and crew have to be taken into account because the fact is i have proven the T-90 can hit targets very very very accurately and at very long distances; moreover, it can do this while on the move. If all of the factors i have listed can be ruled out than something isn't right...
> 
> 
> 
> You just gave me a link to two bloggs and then you quoted someones post, when did quoting people's replies count as a credible source? Like i stated earlier the very unstealthy SU-47 with conventional nose, vertical stabs, FSW, conards, and convetinal intakes achieved a rcs of 0.3, so the butt-heads that keep saying the pak-fa only has a rcs of 0.5 are a laughing stock, esspecially when you consider all of the 'stealthy' features the pak-fa has and the fact that Russia has been able to reduce the rcs of aircraft from 10-20 times just with RAM.
> 
> 
> 
> I just scan through the forum for pictues and i havn't visited in a while, if you us google tanslator you can read trough the whole forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Well not much can be determined about the pak-fa's rcs just by looking at the aircraft; however, it does seem to have all of the features of a stealth aircraft, the one part of the pak-fa that people seem credical of is the underbelly and this is because it's not flat or in other words it has two 'humps' but if you study aircraft such as the Y-23, B-2, and the F-35 they too have these 'humps' the only difference is the 'humps' are on top of the fusalage. With Russia's progress in ram i would not be too woried. Moreover, Sukhoi prototypes are always far cries from the final production-look at the original SU-27.



So are you saying that something must be wrong with the test for T-90 to miss the targets? I would guess so but get ready for attacks from the fanatics in here.


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## bumbgola

ptldM3 said:


> You just gave me a link to two bloggs and then you quoted someones post, when did quoting people's replies count as a credible source? Like i stated earlier the very unstealthy SU-47 with conventional nose, vertical stabs, FSW, conards, and convetinal intakes achieved a rcs of 0.3, so the butt-heads that keep saying the pak-fa only has a rcs of 0.5 are a laughing stock, esspecially when you consider all of the 'stealthy' features the pak-fa has and the fact that Russia has been able to reduce the rcs of aircraft from 10-20 times just with RAM.



I linked to only one blog Broadsword . Then I also pointed to you that the blog is infact reproduction of what is published in a newspaper. I also gave you a link to the newspaper where it published the same stories/blog posts.

The "someone" whose comment I quoted was the good man reporter himself. Also su-47 is not a prototype any more that may explain the larger RCS for pak-fa.


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## ptldM3

bumbgola said:


> I linked to only one blog Broadsword . Then I also pointed to you that the blog is infact reproduction of what is published in a newspaper. I also gave you a link to the newspaper where it published the same stories/blog posts.
> 
> The "someone" whose comment I quoted was the good man reporter himself. Also su-47 is not a prototype any more that may explain the larger RCS for pak-fa.



The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.

Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.


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## Prowler

@ptldM3

_"Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commanders panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides hunter killer capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.

LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunners Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..

Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500."_

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

Here mate please read through and could you look and see how different the Russian T-90 is when compared to the Indian Variant?

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## Prowler

_"Chandigarh: Inducted to serve as India's main battle tank just over three years ago, the Army's fleet of Russian-built T-90s have run into serious trouble.

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

According to Janes Defence Weekly, the tanks continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Armys operational preparedness."

Confirming the Janes report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90s Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55ºC and 60ºC.

During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.

The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tanks systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90s total cost of Rs 11.75 crores."_

Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army | India Defence

See what went wrong...however the Indian Army was still fetish over the T-90 so you can rule out any fabricated results.The result between the comparative trials is as much a shock to them as it is to you and me

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## Prowler

If they so badly wanted the Arjun to emerge as a winner after a fabricated test then why would they have ordered so many T-90's to begin with? That's just bs man


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## ptldM3

Prowler said:


> If they so badly wanted the Arjun to emerge as a winner after a fabricated test then why would they have ordered so many T-90's to begin with? That's just bs man



First of all relax, i never even mentioned the Arjun, i'm talking about the T-90; secondly, the T-90 was ordered before the Arjun, correct? I also have a strong inclination that the source you posted got its information from Shukla?

I have a problem with people bashing the T-90 saying it can't hit targets, i have proven it can hit targets accurately from a long distance and while on the move, heck a tanker with 20 minutes of experience was able to hit night targets as far away as 3100km! 




> During one of the displays, T-90 struck 7 targets in 54 seconds. All were at the distance between 1500-2500m and the tank was on the move at 25km/h. While returning to position, the layer gave the control to the commander who used the gunner mode to fire to the rear of the vehicle and hit 4 more targets.
> 
> during the official trials of T-90, all of the ammunitions were fired by young conscripts who just finished training. All of the rounds &#8211; 24 of them, hit targets at a distance of 4-5km.
> 
> Indian crews quickly mastered the T-90S, they also did not have problems with the fire control and thermo-vision systems. Just after several training sessions Lt. Kapur of the Indian army acted as layer who accurately fired on to the targets at 2500-3000m. Officers from one of the panzer corps needed 20 minutes to familiarize with T-90S and successfully complete the task of destroying 4 targets at night from a distance of 3100m at an ambient temperature of 47&#176;C.



http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkz_kD...1554148/**http&#37;3a//knol.google.com/k/t-90

How does the T-90 do all this ^^^ but fail so bad against the Arjun, makes no sence. like i said earlier the the Arjun is a fine tank and i'm not taking anything away from it, my concern is regarding the T-90's capabilities not the Arjun's, no one has been able to explain how the T-90 did so well in varius trials and even in the hands of unexperienced Indian crews but failed so miserably in trials againt the arjun, how does the T-90 hit all of its targets even by someone that has only 20 minutes experience yet when it's pitted against the Arjun it magical misses targets that even a rookie was able to make (at night) (at 3100km).

If some of you are still having doubts about the T-90's ability to accurately hit tagets then read the following:



> I convinced a *15 year old girl *(the daughter of one of the workers at the polygon) to sit as the layer. For 5 minutes I explained her what she has to do, later we loaded a live round of 9M119. After the permission for fire, *the girl easily detected the target 3.5km away, fired and hit the target.* An experienced layer is capable to precisely guide the missile &#8211; f.ex. to hit a open hatch or anything else


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## bumbgola

ptldM3 said:


> The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.



I quote no other reporter, the comment was made by Ajai Shukla himself. As for reliability of his sources, he has been spot on with the Arjun Vs T-90 saga so far. Being from IA, he also inherited a healthy dose of anti-Arjun vitriol, but as the Arjun improved so did its reputation and it has won over quite a few of its earlier detractors.

Broadsword: India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

He is trying to address similar concerns to the one you raised.



ptldM3 said:


> Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.



Well then lets keep su-47 out of this! Ajai & you yourself have acknowledged that T-50 has a long way to go. It is possible that the RCS will see reduction in prototypes coming down the line.

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## flaming arrow

faithfulguy said:


> Well, I hope India is not using the same assembly line to build both tanks.
> 
> I just think that your hard earn money should go the biggest bang. That means use stuff from
> 
> Good like with Arjun. The Pakistani guys can't be more happier.




please dnt worry about my money...we are happy the way it is being spent dnt worry about us my dear riend now when their are no trolling words left in tour mouth can we expect a decent talk?????

about pakistani's well iam also happy to know that they will be happy
good for both the nations,,
are u a american arms dealer???? please dont propogate this is not a arms bazaar(market)


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## Prowler

ptldM3 said:


> First of all relax, i never even mentioned the Arjun, i'm talking about the T-90; secondly, the T-90 was ordered before the Arjun, correct? I also have a strong inclination that the source you posted got its information from Shukla?
> 
> I have a problem with people bashing the T-90 saying it can't hit targets, i have proven it can hit targets accurately from a long distance and while on the move, heck a tanker with 20 minutes of experience was able to hit night targets as far away as 3100km!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
> 
> How does the T-90 do all this ^^^ but fail so bad against the Arjun, makes no sence. like i said earlier the the Arjun is a fine tank and i'm not taking anything away from it, my concern is regarding the T-90's capabilities not the Arjun's, no one has been able to explain how the T-90 did so well in varius trials and even in the hands of unexperienced Indian crews but failed so miserably in trials againt the arjun, how does the T-90 hit all of its targets even by someone that has only 20 minutes experience yet when it's pitted against the Arjun it magical misses targets that even a rookie was able to make (at night) (at 3100km).
> 
> If some of you are still having doubts about the T-90's ability to accurately hit tagets then read the following:



Comrade no one is bashing the T-90 here..our Army is definitely not dumb to have bought the T-90 is such large number's but as the saying goes "All things are not perfect" I am sure it had it's drawbacks...Ajai Shukla is not a T-90 basher but he is a veteran in his profession what he said cannot be discredited....the creature comforts on the T-90 are not so good and after long hours in the desert heat there were certain problems with the electronics going kaput....T-90 was designed with Russia and it's climatic conditions in mind...and do you agree if I say that the Russian T-90 are different to the one's on offer to India? If you agree then that might be the case for it loosing against the Arjun in the test.

And everything has it's limitation's.T-90 is no exception


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## nietzche

ao333 said:


> The last time I checked, the average IQ of a white Canadian is 11% higher than that of an Indian. Mind checking again for me?
> 
> Arjun is designed as a field tank, because India is not half industrialized, meaning it doesn't drive on roads, thus it needs significantly more power. The Abrams aims at metro warfare; it drives on cement roads. Now, the leopard is not a road tank. It is named so because of its supreme engine at the time (1.5khp over 3 decades ago). And didn't you know? Current Arjuns are powered by 1.4khp engines. The 1.5 ones are still in research. Moreover, field tanks often drive slower, due to the pressure on the engines when acceleration is required to ride over inclined planes, thus, a lower average speed is achieved because the gaschargers need to cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) So are you saying that having more Indian MPs in the government is something to be proud of? And as an Indian, you wish for more Indians to pledge their loyalty to Canada, so they can attain parliament seats?
> 
> Now, the naturalization process is much tougher for the Chinese, which is good for China, but definitely not for us. The chances of a Chinese returning to China is much greater than that of an Indian. And the detrimental problem is, the Chinese hold all the high-tech R&D posts in North America. An average Chinese immigrant seeks to learn from the west and return to homeland ("stealing" technology). Why don't Indians return to India after immigration if India is so much greater than China? Furthermore, what can they offer India upon return?
> 
> 2) How old are you? Human trafficking is cheaper in India. A Chinese/Japanese costs about 500 USD while an Indian costs less than 80 to import (yet there're still so many Indian women who compete to be exported). You're humuliating Indian women, saying that there is no demand for them. Just set your foot on the streets and ask a prostitute. I bet you even want a Chinese/Japanese woman for wife, instead of an Indian, LOL.
> 
> FYI: 60% of American post-doc degrees and high tech posts are held by the Chinese. 70% of Subway sandwich workers in Canada are Indian. There are 22 times more research establishments in China than India. 72% of UBC and UT (the two most prestigious universities in Canada; nietzche can testify) students are Chinese. The average IQ of a Chinese is 27% higher than that of an Indian. _IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_.* That is why an average Canadian prefers a Chinese friend over an Indian.*
> 
> There are just so many more derogatory remarks I can make, but the others would just hurt you guys' "feelings."



hmm...hurt ur ego did it? ...some points 

1. By east asians ...ur equating chinese with the japs and koreans ...i am not sure if an avg japanese wud agree with that...after all the japanese dont have much more than contempt for the chinese...here in canada as i am sure u r aware the hong kong chinese dont think much abt their mainland brothers either...


2. by indian ...u mean all south asians ...since pakistanis indians bangladeshis sri lankans are all of more or less the same racial stock...so ur saying the chinese as a race hav 27% more IQ than indians n all south asians...perhaps extending that corollary from those same IQ reports ...more than middle easterners too...wow u guys r the ubermensche... is it all the hakka noodles that pass off for neurons?

3. as for statistics on subway workers , UofT students etc ...hey my local McD has chinese guys (not japanese not korean)..so also my local Loblaws supermkt...they dont drive cabs as south asians as it is an accepted wisdom in canada that the chinese are the worst drivers some issues with seeing where they r going thru slits ... generally of the east asians ...the japs n south koreans r cool the chinese generally close minded...variety of reasons for those..starting with the delusional state in which immigrant mainlanders exist fed on commie propaganda...most chinese cant even talk the local lingo ..most of what they spew sounds like minglish... 

4. i am sure u know the chinese ghettos in n around toronto eg. markham..."the whites prefer to be with us chinese" ok...i have no probs with that ...what a variety of white trash does with chinese crap is ur own problem...one instance of this association can be found on theredzone.com. u can also see most of ur UofT n york Univ chinese girls up there strutting their IQ. I personally prefer their high EQ. 

Cheers! Enjoy ur weekend

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## lhuang

^ there's refuting a point and then theres being racist. Don't lower yourself tyvm


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## nietzche

ptldM3 said:


> The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.
> 
> Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.



i agree col shukla's knowledge on aircrafts are suspect at best...but hey this is a guy who has put in at least 15 yrs in the armored corp working with the T series ...so his reporting as a defence correspondent in a respected magazine such as Business Standard on Tanks can be taken more seriously...re the comparative trials...while the numbers for the mythic warrior look good..the ones for the 90s kid r shocking...hitting just 50% good shots at high noon...there is something amiss there.

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## nietzche

lhuang said:


> ^ there's refuting a point and then theres being racist. Don't lower yourself tyvm



my friend...we work with a variety of ppl from different nationalities n ethnicities...having travelled n worked around the globe one learns to accept n appreciate the strengths as well as the weaknesses of others n thats how it is...belittling the intelligence of others is not wisdom...nor is it an asian tradition.

thanks


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## karan.1970

I dont know why this is being made into a T 90 vs Arjun.. If ever its going to be T-90+T-72+Arjun vs Al Khalid + T80 + Al-Zarrars


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## Kinetic

karan.1970 said:


> I dont know why this is being made into a T 90 vs Arjun.. If ever its going to be T-90+T-72+Arjun vs Al Khalid + T80 + Al-Zarrars



Second that! Arjun was a overkill for the T-90 but T-90 is still superior to Al Khalid.  I don't think T-90 have to fight against Arjun in real combat. Arjun and Bhishma on one side. So cool down.


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## faithfulguy

karan.1970 said:


> I dont know why this is being made into a T 90 vs Arjun.. If ever its going to be T-90+T-72+Arjun vs Al Khalid + T80 + Al-Zarrars



The recent trial was between Arjun and T-90. Arjun was declared the winner over T-90, shocked the whole world except for the people conducting the test. The resulting numbers were indeed unexpected. Maybe the people doing the test knows something that was not announced.


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## gogbot

faithfulguy said:


> The recent trial was between Arjun and T-90. Arjun was declared the winner over T-90, shocked the whole world except for the people conducting the test. The resulting numbers were indeed unexpected. Maybe the people doing the test knows something that was not announced.



typical , 

distort the facts to make your point.

why don't you just say Arjun sucks and go way.

DRDO has been saying the Arjun will come out on top from the start. 
the army has been delaying these trials by up to a year.

Let me break down the time line for you.

right, before the trials , we had this BS

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/49983-its-official-no-more-arjuns.html

then this

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/50806-arjun-meets-performance-objectives.html

then this

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/51822-arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90-a.html



> Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was  124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the armys fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the armys handful of Arjuns.
> 
> *The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.*
> 
> The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.
> 
> Now, confronted with the Arjuns demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.
> 
> The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).
> 
> *Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the armys assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjuns development for decades, If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.*



and currently this

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/54262-army-purchase-more-arjun-tanks.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

the only people shocked were those who kept the assertion that the Arjun was rubbish , i have always taken DRDO's side and suspected such an outcome from the start.

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## Storm Force

For me And i have always believed this India . FUTURE TANK forces will be 

Arjun 15&#37; HEAVEY @ 500+ 

T90 50% meduim @ 1500

T72 30% Meduim upgrades @ 1000

Light Tank ??? 300+ TBC for chinease theatre

THATS 3300 in around 65+ regiments. 

OVER THE MOON ABOUT ARJUN looks a great beastly looking tank

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## KS

Guys i have read in some sites that the primary gun of Arjun is a 120 mm rifled one..
now is it a 120 mm rifled or 125 mm rifled..?
can anyone clarify..?


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## flaming arrow

Karthic Sri said:


> Guys i have read in some sites that the primary gun of Arjun is a 120 mm rifled one..
> now is it a 120 mm rifled or 125 mm rifled..?
> can anyone clarify..?



It is 120mm rifled gun


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## KS

flaming arrow said:


> It is 120mm rifled gun



but isnt 125 mm supposed to be the standard of the new generation tanks..?
or is it because Arjun project was started long ago that this discreopancy exists..?


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## duhastmish

M1A2 GOT A 120 MM 

LEOPARD 2 ALSO GOT A 120 MM 

merkava also have a 120 mm 

so debatabley top 3 tank in world have 120 mm


CHEERS i hope this answer your question


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## KS

duhastmish said:


> M1A2 GOT A 120 MM
> 
> LEOPARD 2 ALSO GOT A 120 MM
> 
> 
> 
> CHEERS i hope this answer your question



thanks,,,well then no probs...


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## flaming arrow

ENJOY SOME PICS NOW







---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------





[/URL][/IMG]

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------

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## flaming arrow

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------





[/URL][/IMG]

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## flaming arrow

THE MAKING OF AN ARJUN



[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]

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## flaming arrow

//img717.imageshack.us/img717/5117/arjuntankpkg01271320f74.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/IMG]



















[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]

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## KSRaj

gogbot said:


> typical ,
> 
> distort the facts to make your point.
> 
> *why don't you just say Arjun sucks and go way.*



Gosh ... Dont be so rude Gogbot ... 

That fella has to feed his family remember ... Let that fella continue with his day-job!

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## nakodo



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## BJlaowai

nietzche said:


> hmm...hurt ur ego did it? ...some points
> 
> 1. By east asians ...ur equating chinese with the japs and koreans ...i am not sure if an avg japanese wud agree with that...after all the japanese dont have much more than contempt for the chinese...here in canada as i am sure u r aware the hong kong chinese dont think much abt their mainland brothers either...
> 
> 
> 2. by indian ...u mean all south asians ...since pakistanis indians bangladeshis sri lankans are all of more or less the same racial stock...so ur saying the chinese as a race hav 27% more IQ than indians n all south asians...perhaps extending that corollary from those same IQ reports ...more than middle easterners too...wow u guys r the ubermensche... is it all the hakka noodles that pass off for neurons?
> 
> 3. as for statistics on subway workers , UofT students etc ...hey my local McD has chinese guys (not japanese not korean)..so also my local Loblaws supermkt...they dont drive cabs as south asians as it is an accepted wisdom in canada that the chinese are the worst drivers some issues with seeing where they r going thru slits ... generally of the east asians ...the japs n south koreans r cool the chinese generally close minded...variety of reasons for those..starting with the delusional state in which immigrant mainlanders exist fed on commie propaganda...most chinese cant even talk the local lingo ..most of what they spew sounds like minglish...
> 
> 4. i am sure u know the chinese ghettos in n around toronto eg. markham..."the whites prefer to be with us chinese" ok...i have no probs with that ...what a variety of white trash does with chinese crap is ur own problem...one instance of this association can be found on theredzone.com. u can also see most of ur UofT n york Univ chinese girls up there strutting their IQ. I personally prefer their high EQ.
> 
> Cheers! Enjoy ur weekend



The work with the chinese day in and day out. Most of the guys are highly educated and come from the best universities. As for the IQ, EQ and knowledge level of the average chinese goes, I can only do  This is not only my personal experience, but other expats who work here.


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## lhuang

BJlaowai said:


> The work with the chinese day in and day out. Most of the guys are highly educated and come from the best universities. As for the IQ, EQ and knowledge level of the average chinese goes, I can only do  This is not only my personal experience, but other expats who work here.



Um, mate, I'm the last person to bag off the intelligence of Indian people, but atleast 30% of the people who do med (arguably the hardest course to get into) are Chinese/Chinese descent.


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## Rashid..

well it had issues with its suspension and firing controls...when they first field tested it...but to tell the army was a little unfair on arjun as it was going to its phase of development..they concentrated mor on t-90 and t72 upgadations...but as the official statement say that it is doing well now i hope they have a second look towards the tank...


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## nakodo

chinapakistan said:


> Chinki



http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/taimikhan.html#vmessage22351

& no I am not even saying anything.

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## KSRaj

lhuang said:


> Um, mate, I'm the last person to bag off the intelligence of Indian people, but atleast 30&#37; of the people who do med (arguably the hardest course to get into) are Chinese/Chinese descent.



A cool, composed and dignified reply to a really bad remark!


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## shaktiman2010

T-90 is outdated technology. It was ordered in big numbers because of heavy corruption of import-hungry MoD and visionless egoist Army officers who always want to show down DRDO.

Arjun is a much better tank but sadly Army won't take it because they use hearts(ego, hate, prejudices) rather than logic and sense to decide their weapons of choices.

Already, faulty imaging systems in T-90 has costed Indian taxpayer thousands of carores. Indian Army top brass is full of dumbwits.


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## sudhir007

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: ARJUN MBT: A Retrospective On Its Transmission System

The first two shots are pages from the April 1985 edition of the Indian Defence Science Journal, in which M Natarajan, widely considered to be the father of the Arjun tank project, and who retired last year as Chief of DRDO, writes about the Arjun's transmission which was then being attempted indigenously. The last grab shows you the transmission that the Arjun finally had to use. Oh well. Discussions are on at the moment over additional Arjuns for the Army. Stay tuned for updates.


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## sohan

*dances* 

TAKE THAT NON BELIEVERS


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## CONNAN

*



After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets &#8211; both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy.

Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.

Click to expand...

*
thats what will do the job. good job drdo


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## gogbot

Confirmed 

PIB Press Release



> *Army Decides to Take 124 More MBT Arjun
> *
> Ministry of Defence
> Monday, May 17, 2010
> 12:55 IST
> 
> 
> 
> The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials.
> 
> The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our Mechanised Forces. After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets &#8211; both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy. Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.
> 
> Sitanshu Kar / RAJ

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## tingumaster

DRDO is tortoise.....but at last it crosses the finishing line...

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## Mogambo

We are proud of our Arjun


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## Kinshuk

kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..


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## Trichy

Success doesn't come quickly or easily its the perfect example. Go Rock On!!!


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## IndianArmy

Kinshuk said:


> kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..



I want you to see it in front of your eyes.... Its not that bad looking


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## IndianArmy




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## Haanzo

this should silence some BLOODY FAKE CRITICS ON THIS FORUM


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## IndianArmy



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## SpArK

Kinshuk said:


> kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..



*Well we are not expecting a Ferrari in battle field.*

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## IndianArmy



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## Kinshuk

Yeah it is not ferrari. I am happy that ways..


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## Tejas-MkII

FINALLY THE WARRIOR IS BACK.


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## KNIGHT-RIDER

IndianArmy said:


> I want you to see it in front of your eyes.... Its not that bad looking



sir can you differentiate the components used in arjun & its look alike LEOPAD(forgot the model),there weight etc except engine,main gun(although rifled).


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## IndianArmy

KNIGHT-RIDER said:


> sir can you differentiate the components used in arjun & its look alike LEOPAD(forgot the model),there weight etc except engine,main gun(although rifled).



Designs look similar, as DRDO got assistance in the designing of Arjun from a german company who designed Leapord 2.. so Structural similarties are there, but the components are Different , the new Arjun will have Automatic target locating, tracking and destruction developed by DRDO and several other Systems... Arjun is a good tank but not the best....


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## KNIGHT-RIDER

is arjun's AA gun mount on turret are automatic (remote controlled) as in T90?


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## jagjitnatt

Last time I checked Tank weren't supposed to look good. They were meant to look ugly as hell.

I was expecting this move by IA. Awesome news. This could also mean further orders after this.


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## brahmastra

what will be the total number after this new order of 124?


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## KNIGHT-RIDER

is arjun's AA gun mount on turret are automatic (remote controlled) as in T90?


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## Chappal Chor

jagjitnatt said:


> Last time I checked Tank weren't supposed to look good. They were meant to look ugly as hell.
> 
> I was expecting this move by IA. Awesome news. This could also mean further orders after this.



may be we can paint them pink in color with fur around it and send it across for miss India contest. 

Man tank looks better when it looks like tough mean machine.


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## jagjitnatt

brahmastra said:


> what will be the total number after this new order of 124?



248 confirmed.

May increase in future.


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## brahmastra

124+124=248 Tanks


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## gowthamraj

brahmastra said:


> what will be the total number after this new order of 124?



Totally 248


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## gowthamraj

Who the hell said Arjun look ugly . . It the most beautiful tank i ever seen


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## Kinetic

Kinshuk said:


> kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..



Mate I say many Indian systems are not good looking as they are deadly but Arjun I can't believe it!!! Isn't it more good looking than comparable deadly weapons? 

Good job DRDO. 248 Arjuns among huge number of T-90S and T-72M, yes great fighters are always less in numbers but they lead the war and finish it in style. I am sure those T-90S will follow Arjun in war and IA should keep Arjun before T-90S so that Arjun can easily take out enemy tanks in the first hand.


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## karan.1970

The 248 number is definitely not final. This is hump Arjun just passed. Meaning Army is ordering more. Now that the ice is broken, its operational performance will directly dictate the numbers ordered.


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## Kinetic

Few Arjun pics for those who think it is ugly.... 

lo saja diya usko.... ab kaysa lag raha hein???

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## gogbot

brahmastra said:


> 124+124=248 Tanks





gowthamraj said:


> Totally 248



That is 4 regiments  , 

Each comprising of 62 tanks. 

It would seems that they may be relegated to the defence corps ,
specifically in the Rajastan desert.

If they are adopted to the strike corps as well , more orders may follow.



karan.1970 said:


> The 248 number is definitely not final. This is hump Arjun just passed. Meaning Army is ordering more. Now that the ice is broken, its operational performance will directly dictate the numbers ordered.



That is very true. 

We should be more happy with the fact that The Arjun is no longer capped at 124 tanks.

The new order of another 124 tanks is very good news as this means that the cap on the number of Arjuns no longer applies.

With the Army finally recognising the Arjun as the superior vehicle.

It can now bolster it tank corps , with Arjun's whenever needed.

It also means that IA , now cannot import more tanks.
As there is now a fully functioning and capable indigenous alternative.

If IA wants more MBT's this decade then those already on order.
which now includes 

186 Arjun MBT's
~1000 T-90's

all new MBT's order from now to 2020 have to be Arjun's .


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## Kinshuk

is it more advanced then T 90?


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## karan.1970

Well its like LCA and Mig 29.. Both have their place...


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## Kinetic

Kinshuk said:


> is it more advanced then T 90?



Its a generation ahead of T-90. Two different systems all together, different technologies. 

In recent trials Arjun beat T-90S in every aspect.


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## Bagee

waiting for it fire the LAHAT missiles.............


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## Sri

An old article but worth reading on T-90.
Broadsword: The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's armour of deception
I have a query-- if all these systems needed in T-90 are bought then how will it fare against Arjun and also what are the costs of both the tanks when fully integrated with all systems.
Tx


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## KEETARP

248+ is good nos to keep Factory running and Army to retire more T72 . 
When our Arjun Mark2 arrives , more orders will come and ultmately FMBT will take the responsibility from all these to keep our Borders Secure.

^^^^^^^^
There is nothing wrong with T90 , just that its Thermal Imaging system were not build keeping Indian conditions in mind , so it needs environmental control mechanism to function correctly . Without them its blind and media hypes it like T90 is junk .


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## Bagee

bye bye t series here comes the Indian defense industry


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## Kinetic

Sri said:


> I have a query-- if all these systems needed in T-90 are bought then how will it fare against Arjun


Many of these systems on board T-90S failed in extreme desert hot of Rajasthan. They rectified it much later. But Army didn't allow Arjun to do same for some unknown reasons!!! They simply went for large number of T-90S. 



> and also what are the costs of both the tanks when fully integrated with all systems.
> Tx



Though it was initially projected that Arjun will cost more but after so many changes needed for T-90S, it costs as much as Arjun. INR ~16/17 crore each.

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## KEETARP

> bye bye t series here comes the Indian defense industry



^^^^^^^^
Are you going to protect your nation by just 248 Tanks .??????

1657 tanks are on order and will replace all old T55 system .
T72 all will be upgraded and will be given Eye transplant which Media always criticizes .

Get used to T-series it will serve India atleast for next Decade or so.


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## gogbot

Kinshuk said:


> is it more advanced then T 90?



Read for your self

The Hindu News Update Service



> Army takes a U-turn on Arjun tank
> *(2008)
> *New Delhi (IANS): In a reversal of the Army's stand on the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, which has been 37 years in the making, army chief General Deepak Kapoor has written to the defence ministry appreciating the tank's performance.
> 
> The Army chief's letter has come months before the MBT Arjun, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for more than three decades, is headed for head-to-head 'comparative trials' with the Russian T-90 tanks that the Army currently operates.
> 
> "The Army chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'," a Defence Ministry official told IANS on the condition of anonymity.
> 
> The letter from the Army chief came after last year's winter trials of the tank, which has already cost the exchequer Rs 3,500 crore. The stand is a complete U-turn as the Army had made it clear that it would buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts.
> 
> The Defence Research & Development Organisation's (DRDO) demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible.
> 
> "The Defence Ministry had been pushing for the joint trials for the past one-and-a-half-years but people in the military set up were not too keen," the official added.
> 
> A reluctant Army had also said that the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.
> 
> However, the Defence Ministry, which has been putting thrust on indigenisation, wanted to see the project through.
> 
> On February 11, Defence Minister A.K. Antony had expressed his happiness on the Arjun tank becoming "a reality". "We have seen light at the end of the tunnel," Antony had said speaking of the project.
> 
> The tank has been mired in controversy with the army last year having told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.
> 
> Adding fuel to the proverbial fire, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh hinted at the possibility of "sabotage" during the 2007 winter trials.
> 
> The Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.
> 
> Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.
> 
> However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.



___________________________________________________

next two years were spent , with DRDO and Indian army fighting it out over the future of the tank.

Army making up BS excuses , and DRDO crying foul on what they saw was favouritism for Imported products.(yes i know what you are thinking but that;s exactly what happened)

IA said weight , despite the Arjun weighing the same as other tanks of its class









IA said logistics, some what true.

and
Self proclaimed experts , constantly rehashing BS for Media on why the tank is not fit

whilst Arjun was also defended.

T-90 and Arjun comparison








heck dude , they had to get the tank certified by a foreign tank manufacturer(Israeli) , Because the IA demanded it

after all that, in 2010.
____________________________________________________

Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks

In fact there were supposed to be trials between the Arjun and T-72 , the army opted out. This was because the T-72 is no match for the Arjun in its current condition

Piercing the army's armour of deception

MORE criticism on the army's purchase of T-90's when the Arjun was ready and able

PIB Press Release



> Monday, April 26, 2010
> Ministry of Defence
> 
> MBT Arjun
> 19:54 IST
> 
> The decision on the further order of the MBT Arjun tanks would be based on the results of recently concluded comparative trials of MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks.
> 
> Certain components of MBT Arjun are imported based on the indigenous design of their configurations. The other systems are indigenously designed and produced.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S Semmalai and Shri GS Basavaraj in Lok Sabha today.
> 
> PK / RAJ



DRDO had to fight to get this trial, elements within the Army tried everything it could to avoid it. It was even delayed for year(originally last year may 2009) as a result of IA .

Meaning no , new orders would have been placed or even consider , had the Arjun had come out on top in the trials.

But finally the trial was done and the results known to all.

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90



> *Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90*
> 
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST
> India&#8217;s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.
> 
> The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks&#8217; ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.
> 
> The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.
> &#8220;The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen&#8221;, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. &#8220;As the army&#8217;s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.&#8221; With the trial report still being compiled &#8212; it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight &#8212; neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.
> 
> The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army&#8217;s senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.
> 
> Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was &#8212; 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army&#8217;s fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army&#8217;s handful of Arjuns.
> 
> *&#8220;The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun&#8217;s strong performance,&#8221; an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. &#8220;But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.&#8221;
> *
> The army&#8217;s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.
> 
> Now, confronted with the Arjun&#8217;s demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.
> 
> The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army&#8217;s 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).
> 
> Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army&#8217;s assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun&#8217;s development for decades, &#8220;If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.&#8221;
> 
> The Arjun&#8217;s sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun &#8212; with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection &#8212; be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army&#8217;s strike corps for performing a tank&#8217;s most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.
> 
> But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.(gogbot: this is in fact not true , there are new bridges made with the Arjun in mind , Arjun regiments can use those bridges)



And now we have an order for 124 , breaking the cap on tanks IA set.

And if your wondering if the results are a not exactly true , they are .
the reason why is that the Anti-Arjun Lobby comprising mainly of the imports lobby.
Has not been one to shy away from a chance to prove that the Arjun is not up to the mark. If the Arjun had shown any weakness or sign of failure , they would have been over it like vultures.

The fact that they have kept silent , whilst more tanks have been ordered is only more proof of that.
____________________________________________________

Bottom line

Arjun is more well armoured , faster , more accurate and has a longer range.

Even the ATGM it fires have a longer range.

It's rifled gun , gives it far greater accuracy.

And it's accuracy while moving is miles above what the t-90 is capable of .

don't get me wrong the T-90 is a good tank in its own right , many of our rivals tanks are in fact derived from it. But the Arjun is just better.

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## flaming arrow

The Defence Ministry has just announced that the Indian Army has decided to place a fresh order for an additional 124 Arjun main battle tanks. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks, taking the total strength in service to 248 Arjuns. I wrote about the possibility of two more regiments being ordered here in March. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials. After many years of "trials and tribulations", it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets  both stationary and moving, with pin point accuracy. The total number still falls well short of the 500 tank target that the Mark-1 version was supposed to achieve to amortize investments on

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: FLASH! Indian Army Orders 124 More Arjun Tanks!


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## flaming arrow

This was coming after the comparitive trials.we had discussed in great volume about the systems on board the arjun tank..this order just goes to show that Arjun has finally prooved its worth..notice this batch will along with upgrades.
MOD has already given the go ahead for Arjun mkII, now haters can cry us a river


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## KS

Kinshuk said:


> kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..



Bhai it may not be a Honda City...But its more like a Tata Sumo...Rugged and does the its job to the full.


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## KS

Kinetic said:


> yes great fighters are always less in numbers but they lead the war and finish it in style. I am sure those T-90S will follow Arjun in war and IA should keep Arjun before T-90S so that Arjun can easily take out enemy tanks in the first hand.



There is a saying or rather a punch dialogue in Tamil:

"Singam single ah thaan varum,Panniga thaan kootama varum"

(The lion always comes alone,,it is the pigs that come in crowds.)


Hope this fits ur post .

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## jha

good news..kya din hai bhai aaj...pehle AGNI-2 aur ab ARJUN...

Any idea what will be XTRA features on MK-2.


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^
If you get one Jha , PLZ inform me by PM , i also have no clue
*"Indian Army" sir* can perhaps help us .


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## jagjitnatt

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> If you get one Jha , PLZ inform me by PM , i also have no clue
> *"Indian Army" sir* can perhaps help us .





jha said:


> good news..kya din hai bhai aaj...pehle AGNI-2 aur ab ARJUN...
> 
> Any idea what will be XTRA features on MK-2.



The new features on Mk-II won't be turret related. There won't be any physical changes either.

The changes would be EW suite. DRDO is working on networking the Tanks and developing a datalink system.

The biggest change is a defense system for the Tank like the Russian Shotra system. An 81mm Anti-laser and Anti-thermal Screening Smoke Grenade are under development.

Infrared jammers and laser warning reciever would be another upgrade.

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## Kinetic

jha said:


> good news..kya din hai bhai aaj...pehle AGNI-2 aur ab ARJUN...
> 
> Any idea what will be XTRA features on MK-2.



Don't know about mk-2 but new batch of 124 recently ordered will get these....

*1) LAHAT ATGM
2) ERA
3) Panaromic TI
4) 1500 HP engine

Also incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.*


Broadsword: Army to order more Arjun tanks


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## KEETARP

Datalink will take time , 

IAI ( israel....) is only building a Pilot Project for IAF , that too will come up in 2013 and will link UAV +Command and Control center + AEW + Some JETS only in initial phase . 
For interlinking Tanks and LCH / Tejas for CAS and COIN operation will take hell lot of time . 
Hope Amy and DRDO show some urgency


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## letsbefriends

its good news but not great,,, jst 124 arjuns more..i wonder wht the heck does army wants from arjun though.hope DRDO will be ready in time for mk 2 version of arjun in the next 3 to 4 years..since no major design changes r required.this might be possible


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## arya-is-here

good to know but DRDO has to do lots of work


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## KS

Kinetic said:


> Don't know about mk-2 but new batch of 124 recently ordered will get these....
> 
> *1) LAHAT ATGM
> 2) ERA
> 3) Panaromic TI
> 4) 1500 HP engine
> 
> Also incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.*
> 
> 
> Broadsword: Army to order more Arjun tanks



Does that mean the current batch of 124 arjuns dont have that capability..?


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## sancho

letsbefriends said:


> *its good news but not great,,, jst 124 arjuns more..i wonder wht the heck does army wants from arjun though.*hope DRDO will be ready in time for mk 2 version of arjun in the next 3 to 4 years..since no major design changes r required.this might be possible


Agree with that, I think one problem could still the weight that won't make it useful for other regions and that's maybe why they still order only limited numbers. If that is still a major point for the IA, even the MK2 upgrades won't result in much higher orders, but I still hope for the TANKEX upgrade for the older T 72 tanks besides the normal Arjun orders.


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## Indiarox

Karthic Sri said:


> There is a saying or rather a punch dialogue in Tamil:
> 
> "Singam single ah thaan varum,Panniga thaan kootama varum"
> 
> (The lion always comes alone,,it is the pigs that come in crowds.)
> 
> 
> Hope this fits ur post .


sakath statement


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## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> Does that mean the current batch of 124 arjuns dont have that capability..?



Yes they don't have. But Arjun fired Lahat from its gun way back. They need to integrate *laser designator* on Arjun to fire LAHAT and incorporating it with Arjun's fire control system. It will need only six months.


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## jha

LASER DESIGNATORS can be installed on already rolled out tanks also..right..?


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## Kinetic

jha said:


> LASER DESIGNATORS can be installed on already rolled out tanks also..right..?



Yes but they need to modify the *fire control system (FCS)* of the tank as well.


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## indushek

This news has indeed made my day. Great going DRDO


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## Gene

This is time to party tonight............
Can anyone have photographs of the interior of Arjun tank(fire control systems) ?????
can the fire control systems be comparable to Abraham M1A2.


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## Swift

This is a proud moment for sure.

This is how India is may be late but gets there..


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## Dash

I think Sancho is right...
The weight needs to be looked at. else IA will cry again saying its over weight...

I sometimes wonder why there shouldnt be physical changes, Looking at all the modern tank, you will see the base below the turret(I dont know what it is, pls help me) is slanted to defeat missiles, but in case of Arjun its not slanted.

Any one can help me here why did they go for this?....and any update if they can fit any turbine engine to it unlike desiel?


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## indiarocks

jha said:


> good news..kya din hai bhai aaj...pehle AGNI-2 aur ab ARJUN...
> 
> Any idea what will be XTRA features on MK-2.



sir,it will be slapped with 2 tons of more armour on the vital parts of front portion...also will be able to fire lahat and other anti tank missiles...
drdo promisses to provide a better navigation system that can be directly connected to a uav...also to the satellite [provided active in 2013}...also it will be provided better upgrades in the engine and accuracy...drdo has also rejected army demand to remove the blackbox from further orders saying it will be an integral part of arjun-mk-2,
also recently mod disclosed the forign firms who inspected the arjuns..in a statement

Arjun Tank has been certified by an govt.Israeli firm IMI.CUBA has asked for a Request For Proposal for Arjun Tanks. The Tanks have been tested to death.
The Arjun MBT NBC filtration system has been integrated with roentgenometer cum flash sensor alongwith a chemical sensor. These products have been developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). A roentgenometer is used to measure of dose rates recieved by the crew of Arjun Tank or other armoured vehicles which have similar systems in Indian Army. It has energy compensated GM tube sensor (80 keV to 1.3 MeV) with an analog display. It meets all JSS 55555-L 3 test series specifications. It displays 0 to 1000 R/h in 4 ranges with an accuracy of plus or minus 2%. It weighs approximately 2.5Kg and is powered by 18-32 V DC tank batteries.

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## Indian-Devil

Its really a very good news to hear more Arjuns joining Indian Army Tank regiments. But we were expecting atleast 270-300 tanks instead of just 124 more. I think there should be more orders once LAHAT and Kanchan Armours are done with new batches.
But still its ice breaking news from IA perspective. And i think some neighbours might need to change the spellings for Arjun now.


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## Haanzo

GOOD GOD what is this not a single troll ....... this news might be a hard hit to someones face here


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## Bagee

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Are you going to protect your nation by just 248 Tanks .??????
> 
> 1657 tanks are on order and will replace all old T55 system .
> T72 all will be upgraded and will be given Eye transplant which Media always criticizes .
> 
> Get used to T-series it will serve India atleast for next Decade or so.



frankly speaking what are the possible upgrades on these t series tanks such as the the t 72's what are the costs involved u know my friends i start doubting our army also because of the netas god forbid if there are any kick backs involved by some Russian firms to the Indian army hi racy


----------



## Bagee

Haanzo said:


> GOOD GOD what is this not a single troll ....... this news might be a hard hit to someones face here



yes my dear friend with Israeli electronics and assistances it will be difficult for our pak and chini friends to digest they must be thinking what to right and what not to


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Bagee said:


> yes my dear friend with Israeli electronics and assistances it will be difficult for our pak and chini friends to digest they must be thinking what to right and what not to



Why r u bringing Pakistan and chinese people in ur rant?
Were u born with the low life habit?
Thank the israelis and get over it.....
Could make a tank 4 decades and now have started trolling after numbers of failures.....we dont even know if it still works.


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## IndianArmy

jha said:


> good news..kya din hai bhai aaj...pehle AGNI-2 aur ab ARJUN...
> 
> Any idea what will be XTRA features on MK-2.



No Idea about Future arjun but most of the below mentioned Upgrades will be done to the present arjuns

I got these from wiki pedia

Automatic target locating, tracking and destruction.
DRDO is developing the Tank Urban Survival Kit which is a series of improvements to the Arjun intended to improve fighting ability in urban environments which includes defensive aids like laser warning, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system.
CVRDE is in the process of developing tank simulators.
DRDO is developing a Laser Warning Control System (LWCS) in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel to be equipped on the Arjun at regimental level trials with T-90s. The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems. LWCS includes laser warning system, Infra Red jammers and aerosol grenade smokes, and will help reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability. DRDO is also co-developing the and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Barracuda Camouflaging Limited.
A new improved 1500 hp engine.
DRDO also plans to develop robotic that will work on tele-linking Arjuns in addition to make the tracking of targets automatic.
An anti-helicopter round is under development as well.

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## Bagee

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Why r u bringing Pakistan and chinese people in ur rant?
> Were u born with the low life habit?
> Thank the israelis and get over it.....
> Could make a tank 4 decades and now have started trolling after numbers of failures.....we dont even know if it still works.



thank's for the response as expected  keep it up what ever u might say arjun is up and running man so watch out for it


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## IndianArmy

Gene said:


> This is time to party tonight............
> Can anyone have photographs of the interior of Arjun tank(fire control systems) ?????
> can the fire control systems be comparable to Abraham M1A2.



Inside Arjun MBT


​


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## sms

IndianArmy said:


> Inside Arjun MBT
> 
> 
> ​



Indeed a good news. 

But in these pictures it does not looks like a world class tank. Do we have T90 pictures for comparision?


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## ebungo

sms said:


> Indeed a good news.
> 
> But in these pictures it does not looks like a world class tank. Do we have T90 pictures for comparision?



Yeah doe'nt look brand new


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## IndianArmy

sms said:


> Indeed a good news.
> 
> But in these pictures it does not looks like a world class tank. Do we have T90 pictures for comparision?



Thats becoz these pictures are of prototype, Not the One Inducted..... Next time I visit the 43rd armoured regiment, I will share all the Pictures Of Arjun, happy? 

These pictures are not mine


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## Prowler

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Why r u bringing Pakistan and chinese people in ur rant?
> Were u born with the low life habit?
> Thank the israelis and get over it.....
> Could make a tank 4 decades and now have started trolling after numbers of failures.....we dont even know if it still works.



The post is addressed to those Chinese and Pakistani's who were talking nonsense about the Arjun and calling it names..

And what's the Israeli's got to be thanked for?it's a win win for both Israeli's and Indian's they learn some things from us and we learn stuff from them as well.

And thanks to you we can agree that we had the plans for a world beater 4 decades back  And failure does happen in indigenous tech it's not like you buy something from some place and slap on a sticker calling it "Made by me in my home country" and Indian Army knows whether it works or not in fact they know better than you so no one's asking you to be the judge.

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## sms

IndianArmy said:


> Thats becoz these pictures are of prototype, Not the One Inducted..... Next time I visit the 43rd armoured regiment, I will share all the Pictures Of Arjun, happy?
> 
> These pictures are not mine



Thanks you very much Major,
Ensure not post any sensitive info. picture


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## IndianArmy

sms said:


> Thanks you very much Major,
> Ensure not post any sensitive info. picture



There is nothing one can do Knowing Whats Inside..... its well known for everyone, But yeah, there are certain Systems which should not be displayed... I would keep that in mind


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## baker

*Fresh orders for Arjun tank as it outmanoeuvres Russian T-90*



> NEW DELHI: The Army has placed a fresh order for 124 Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs), imparting a major impetus to the over three-decade-long DRDO
> programme.
> 
> The development comes in the wake of reports that Arjun had outperformed the Russian-made T-90 tanks during comparative trials in the deserts of Rajasthan earlier this year. The Indian-built MBTs, not surprisingly, got the nod ahead of the Russian-built tanks.
> 
> The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 MBTs, Arjun. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials, a defence ministry spokesperson said here on Monday.
> 
> The additional 124 MBTs would help the Army to raise two more regiments of the indigenous tanks.
> 
> The Army already has a 45-tank-strong regiment comprising Arjuns, which were delivered to the Army by the Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in the middle of last year.
> 
> The Army had in 2004 placed its first order for 124 Arjun MBTs, of which nearly 50 have been delivered by the HVF. The defence ministry had last week decided to go in for the development of second-generation of Arjun tanks, giving a major push to DRDOs efforts in this direction.
> 
> DRDO and HVF have for some time been wary that the Arjun production-line at Avadi would dry up if fresh orders were not placed and that it could spell the death knell to the 36-year-old project.
> 
> The fears of DRDO and HVF stemmed from the fact that the Army was not too keen on placing fresh order over and above the existing order, arguing that the technology of Arjun would become outdated in the next 10 years.
> Also, the Armys mechanised forces has started looking out for a futuristic main battle tank (FMBT) be it indigenous or imported.
> 
> The Arjun tank project to design and develop an MBT for the Army was approved by the government in 1974 with an aim of giving the required indigenous cutting edge to the mechanised forces.
> 
> *After many years of trials and tribulations, the tank has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets and accurately hitting targets, both stationary and moving with pinpointed accuracy, the spokesperson said.
> 
> Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements, the official said. *
> The Arjun project had in its initial days been besieged with troubles due to defects in its design such as those related to weight, size, night-vision capability and fire control system. These defects were corrected one by one over the years.
> 
> The fresh orders for production of Arjun would actually mean a new lease of life for the project that has suffered due to time and cost overruns.


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## flaming arrow

*INSIDE ARJUN TANK*

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## sohan

Why is the interior so ill kept?


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## Chappal Chor

sohan said:


> Why is the interior so ill kept?



I am not a military guy and sorry for trolling but could not resist. There should be a music system also inside with few CDs of himesh reshamiya. That can serve as our interrogation cell also. make enemy listen "tera...tera...tera...tera...surrooooorrrrrrrr" 10 times and he will open his mouth.

Along with that in free time our chaps in army can hear some rap while on the go.

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## flaming arrow

sohan said:


> Why is the interior so ill kept?



soham buddy u need to check out the interior of other world class tanks and you then will have clear view on arjun its a modular design and ergonomics are crew riendly even the russians had thier share of tears of joy  when they saw Arjun frm inside,the isrealis were stunned by the gun according to them its beats the main gun of merkava anyday...not to mention the electronics which goes inside are simply the BEST and when i say BEST it means that..both parties have learned alot from each other..i will try n put T-90 PICS..
I have of pics arjun frm the inside but that cannot be posted here
meanwhile enjoy these iam sure "INDIAN ARMY" sir will quench our thirst soon

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## illuminatidinesh

Arjun firing LAHAT

Main Gun

Recoil system

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## flaming arrow

*ON POPULAR DEMAND INTERIOR OF DIFFERENT TANKS*
_LETS START WITH T-80/84 WHICH PAKISTAN HAS_

_driver's section_













[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

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## Mogambo

I have been prevailed to be inside Arjun Tank in Defense Expo


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## flaming arrow

* T-90*

















*FUEL SYSTEM OF T-90*


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## flaming arrow

*M1A1 ABRAHAM TANK*


----------



## flaming arrow

LEOPARD TANK


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## flaming arrow

T-72 MBT


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## flaming arrow

POSSIBLE DESIGN OF T-95 WHICH WAS SCRAPPED RECENTLY


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## flaming arrow

MERKAVA 4


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## indiarocks

flaming arrow said:


> *INSIDE ARJUN TANK*



great info...thanks


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## illuminatidinesh

The above illustration graphically illustrates how exactly the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be employed in a future armoured campaign, as visualised by the Indian Army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces. It is in such a scenario that the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be subjected to competitive firepower and mobility trials against the T-90S MBT early next year. As the Arjun Mk1 comes equipped with a battlespace management system (BMS) and the T-90S does not, the former will have a decisive edge against the T-90S when it comes to enhanced situational awareness, as the Arjun Mk1 will be able to get real-time SITREPS on enemy dispositions and movements from the Army's Corps-level BMS (which in turn derive their real-time inputs from UAVs) and be able to engage in decisive manoeuvre warfare of the type not possible at the moment with either the T-90S or the T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeya MBTs. No wonder the Indian Army is coy about subjecting the Arjun Mk1 MBT and T-90S to competitive performance trials. It's that simple--Prasun K. Sengupta

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## Mirza Jatt

the interior of Arjun is look much better than the tanks shown above.


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## flaming arrow

illuminatidinesh said:


> ARJUN CAD



buddy please post it again




> the interior of Arjun is look much better than the tanks shown above.



eaxactly this is what i wanted to explain,the interior ergonomics of a tank plays a very vital in the protection of its crew from the trauma i.e post hit affects..for example a tank with more gauges,analogue gear will have more chances of injuring its crew when the tank is hit..because of the damage these parts tend to come from thier slots a high speed......if one has seen a merkava 4 from the inside or for that matter a interior pic you will simply surprised to see the space which is present inside they can actually evacuate injured in case of an emergency or can make a few mounted soldier sit inside


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## illuminatidinesh

Transmission Controller for Indigenous Transmission System of MBT ArjunTransmission Controller

Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi, has developed an Indigenous Transmission Controller for Indigenous Transmission System of MBT Arjun. This is a heavy duty, high power transmission-cum-steering system. This hard-wired semi-automatic transmission controller developed to control the above transmission, caters for manual mode of operation. In manual mode, gear- selection is left to the driver from 1st to 4th gear. The electronic control box receives control commands from the gear selection unit. After processing these commands, control logic signals are sent to actuate solenoid valve to shift gears or inhibit certain actions. Gear selector unit and transmission junction box have been developed and integrated in the indigenous transmission vehicle. Field trials compiling 1200 km have been successfully completed.

The main features of the transmission controller are:

*

Four forward and two reverse speed operation selection
*

Lock-up converter operation for smooth gear shift during change of gears by disengaging the converter solenoid for a minimum period of 600 ms
*

Lock-up solenoid operation by engaging first and third gear simultaneously
*

Direction lever-lock at engine speed exceeding safety limit and unlock mechanism to prevent accidental direction selection, and
*

Safety provision for engaging the gear-solenoid after sensing the control pressure using the pressure switches. 

Mechanical Steering Unit for MBT Arjun

The Hydrostatic Steering Unit of MBT Arjun is a highly sophisticated component which is not available indigenously in higher power range for heavy vehicles like Arjun tank weighing over 58 tons. Therefore, a necessity was felt to develop a mechanical system to meet the steering requirement of MET Arjun as a fall back option for this imported critical component.The Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE) Avadi, has designed, developed and successfully lab tested the Mechanical Steering Unit. It is simple, light and efficient steering system meeting the battlefield requirements of all possible maneuvering. The transmission fitted with mechanical steering unit is likely to be installed in the test vehicle shortly for carrying out automotive trials.


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## illuminatidinesh

self delete


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## illuminatidinesh

Sorry I cant post the Image .... Some problem it seems,


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## letsbefriends

IndianArmy said:


> There is nothing one can do Knowing Whats Inside..... its well known for everyone, But yeah, there are certain Systems which should not be displayed... I would keep that in mind



sir ji, a question for u..can u plz tell that despite outgunning and outmaneuvering the t-90 the numbers r still so low???(just 4 regiments)it can perform everything the t 90 can and also a lot more stuff..i would have loved if we produced atleast500 mk1 and the mk2 version to replace the t72's..also i cannot unerstand is army is arguing that in 10 years arjun's technology n design will become obsolete then why r they buying more than 1600 t 90's??? if the t90' can stay in indian army till 2040 then y not the mk 1 version in good no's??


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## Dash

> sir ji, a question for u..can u plz tell that despite outgunning and outmaneuvering the t-90 the numbers r still so low???(just 4 regiments)it can perform everything the t 90 can and also a lot more stuff..i would have loved if we produced atleast500 mk1 and the mk2 version to replace the t72's..also i cannot unerstand is army is arguing that in 10 years arjun's technology n design will become obsolete then why r they buying more than 1600 t 90's??? if the t90' can stay in indian army till 2040 then y not the mk 1 version in good no's??



I dont know what Indian Army Sir will comment on this.
I think the whole issue is about a completely new tank is getting inducted to Army.
1. Its a different class, meaning to say its heavier class, so the army first needs to build infrastructure for this type of vehicle.
2. the army has never operated a modern tank like this, meaning to say its battle management system and advanved FCS are some things which are new to our Army. So intitial procurement will be used to train and most probably it will take time for Army to adapt itself to this tank.

I think what Army has thought is that, advanced T-90 (i read somewhere they are fitting the missing controls this time to the tank) is of same cost to Arjun which is about 17 crores.

So an already placed order for so many tanks(T-90) plus additional 500 for Arjun will not be economical for army when they know that even after buying equal pricing Arjun they will incur additional cost for its infrastructure developement which might escalate the average price for Arjun to a but more and might delay the induction and over all prepardness of Army with this tank as compared to T-90.

I see this as main reason. If not for the weight I think DRDO had a strong point in pushing this tank more.

My 2 cents.


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## letsbefriends

Dash said:


> I dont know what Indian Army Sir will comment on this.
> I think the whole issue is about a completely new tank is getting inducted to Army.
> 1. Its a different class, meaning to say its heavier class, so the army first needs to build infrastructure for this type of vehicle.
> 2. the army has never operated a modern tank like this, meaning to say its battle management system and advanved FCS are some things which are new to our Army. So intitial procurement will be used to train and most probably it will take time for Army to adapt itself to this tank.
> 
> I think what Army has thought is that, advanced T-90 (i read somewhere they are fitting the missing controls this time to the tank) is of same cost to Arjun which is about 17 crores.
> 
> So an already placed order for so many tanks(T-90) plus additional 500 for Arjun will not be economical for army when they know that even after buying equal pricing Arjun they will incur additional cost for its infrastructure developement which might escalate the average price for Arjun to a but more and might delay the induction and over all prepardness of Army with this tank as compared to T-90.
> 
> I see this as main reason. If not for the weight I think DRDO had a strong point in pushing this tank more.
> 
> My 2 cents.



buddy but nw since we have 250 tanks,infrastructure and training will be required for it too..economies of scale says that the operating and maintainance cost will come down if the order is in big no's..thats my thinking..and money shouldnt be a problem every year millions of dollars r returned back to finance ministry as unspent amt...so i think it would be better of as ordering atleast 500 tanks and by the time mk2 version will be ready and upgradation of mk1 to mk 2 can take place...just my thought....


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## Dash

True, Oredring at least 500 tanks will be more economical for DRDO than Army, which is already invested the funds which were suppoised to be used by Arjun, in T90, so this will be always an additional invest for them.

Plus more tanks means more money always.

If you talk about economy of scale then I think a 1000 tanks (Arjun) on orer will actually compensate the initial invesment , 250 and 500 are all the same.

iam not against Arjun and will want this tank in Army, however I think the conservative way of thinking of army's top brass which is thinking like this.

and their thoughts are very similar to what i posted now. At least I think so..


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## Storm Force

I said over 6 weeks ago that India will eventually field over 500 Arjun TANKS BY 2020 along side 1500 T90 anf some older 1500 T72s by 2020


----------



## CONNAN

*ARJUN TANK MARK II CONCEPT DESIGN*


----------



## IndianArmy

How do you know this is the concept design of Arjun MK2?


----------



## CONNAN

IndianArmy said:


> How do you know this is the concept design of Arjun MK2?



Found in image shack post as arjun mark ii concept art


----------



## IndianArmy

connanxlrc1000 said:


> Found in image shack post as arjun mark ii concept art



Oh, I see....


----------



## Bagee

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *ARJUN TANK MARK II CONCEPT DESIGN*



man if its anthing cclose to it then all hell will break lose but one thing i noticed that it is only having six wheels while the arjun chassis has seven


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## Indiarox

Bagee said:


> man if its anthing cclose to it then all hell will break lose but one thing i noticed that it is only having six wheels while the arjun chassis has seven


it has 7 wheels mate one is raised in upper left corner


----------



## Bagee

Indiarox said:


> it has 7 wheels mate one is raised in upper left corner



but i thought that it was difficult to make changes in the basic chassis of a MBT...


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## CONNAN

Bagee said:


> but i thought that it was difficult to make changes in the basic chassis of a MBT...



buddy nothing changed only extra NERA ( non explosive reactive amour) is added to the front of the turrent and sides of the tank


----------



## black flame

Karthic Sri said:


> There is a saying or rather a punch dialogue in Tamil:
> 
> "Singam single ah thaan varum,Panniga thaan kootama varum"
> 
> (The lion always comes alone,,it is the pigs that come in crowds.)
> 
> 
> Hope this fits ur post .



thambik yendha ooru


----------



## CONNAN

black flame said:


> thambik yendha ooru



andha ooru chennai thambi


----------



## KS

black flame said:


> thambik yendha ooru



Naan Coimbatore maaplai ngnaa.....neenga..?





connanxlrc1000 said:


> andha ooru chennai thambi



OMG u too a tamilian...pleasant surprise.


----------



## flaming arrow

Bagee said:


> man if its anthing cclose to it then all hell will break lose but one thing i noticed that it is only having six wheels while the arjun chassis has seven



bagee its a artists impression with a lot of loophole 

1.The main gun shown here is smoothbore Arjun has a rifled gun

2.The turret looks like that of an leopard 2

lets keep our fingers crossed hope we get to see a new turret design..something on he lines of a MERKAVA 4


----------



## CONNAN

Karthic Sri said:


> Naan Coimbatore maaplai ngnaa.....neenga..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG u too a tamilian...pleasant surprise.



&#2951; &#2949;&#2990; &#2949;&#2994;&#2970;&#3019; &#2980;&#2990;&#2994;&#2985;&#3021;. &#2984;&#3007;&#2970;&#3015; &#2975;&#3009; &#2970;&#3007; &#2994;&#3019;&#2975;&#3021; &#2962;&#2986;&#3021; &#2986;&#3014;&#2962;&#2986;&#3021;&#2994;&#3015; &#2986;&#3007;&#2992;&#3019;&#2990;&#3021; &#2980;&#2990;&#3007;&#2996;&#3021;&#2984;&#3006;&#2975;&#3009;


----------



## IndianArmy

connanxlrc1000 said:


> &#2951; &#2949;&#2990; &#2949;&#2994;&#2970;&#3019; &#2980;&#2990;&#2994;&#2985;&#3021;. &#2984;&#3007;&#2970;&#3015; &#2975;&#3009; &#2970;&#3007; &#2994;&#3019;&#2975;&#3021; &#2962;&#2986;&#3021; &#2986;&#3014;&#2962;&#2986;&#3021;&#2994;&#3015; &#2986;&#3007;&#2992;&#3019;&#2990;&#3021; &#2980;&#2990;&#3007;&#2996;&#3021;&#2984;&#3006;&#2975;&#3009;



enna pa, onnume puriyilaya.... enna kiruki vechirike? hahaha, I was in chennai in my teen age days


----------



## black flame

Karthic Sri said:


> Naan Coimbatore maaplai ngnaa.....neenga..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG u too a tamilian...pleasant surprise.



bangalore konjam pakam thaan


----------



## KS

connanxlrc1000 said:


> &#2951; &#2949;&#2990; &#2949;&#2994;&#2970;&#3019; &#2980;&#2990;&#2994;&#2985;&#3021;. &#2984;&#3007;&#2970;&#3015; &#2975;&#3009; &#2970;&#3007; &#2994;&#3019;&#2975;&#3021; &#2962;&#2986;&#3021; &#2986;&#3014;&#2962;&#2986;&#3021;&#2994;&#3015; &#2986;&#3007;&#2992;&#3019;&#2990;&#3021; &#2980;&#2990;&#3007;&#2996;&#3021;&#2984;&#3006;&#2975;&#3009;



Ayyoyooo...Tamila kola panringa...From were in TN..?

*@ all Indian-Army,Connan,Black flame.*

im sending a friendship req....


----------



## black flame

connanxlrc1000 said:


> &#2951; &#2949;&#2990; &#2949;&#2994;&#2970;&#3019; &#2980;&#2990;&#2994;&#2985;&#3021;. &#2984;&#3007;&#2970;&#3015; &#2975;&#3009; &#2970;&#3007; &#2994;&#3019;&#2975;&#3021; &#2962;&#2986;&#3021; &#2986;&#3014;&#2962;&#2986;&#3021;&#2994;&#3015; &#2986;&#3007;&#2992;&#3019;&#2990;&#3021; &#2980;&#2990;&#3007;&#2996;&#3021;&#2984;&#3006;&#2975;&#3009;



google trans rite...


----------



## CONNAN

black flame said:


> google trans rite...



i am from hydrabad i know tamil because i studied in hindustan engineering college


----------



## black flame

connanxlrc1000 said:


> i am from hydrabad i know tamil because i studied in hindustan engineering college



even my bro did his EEE there


----------



## CONNAN

black flame said:


> even my bro did his EEE there



now got settled in States


----------



## black flame

connanxlrc1000 said:


> now got settled in States



cool then lets stop it and have a chat in a chat site and not get banned for trolling sorry guys and MOD couldn't avoid the homie.........


----------



## CONNAN

MODS sorry for personal posts


----------



## flaming arrow

New Delhi: A chagrined Indian Army on Monday placed a fresh order for an additional 124 'Arjun' Main Battle Tanks, finally conceding the battle worthiness, and the superiority, of this indigenously developed design over much-hyped foreign developed imports. The battle for an unqualified acceptance of the Arjun as a product at par with, and indeed superior to comparable products, either Western or Russian, was a long drawn one and was clinched at the comparative trials conducted in March this year at the Mahajan firing ranges in Rajasthan.
Click here to enlargeToday would indeed be a red-letter day for DRDO scientists, past and present, involved with this long drawn-out programme.
The order would also come as a slap in the face of persistent media critics who have taken pathological delight at the trials and tribulations that this indigenous development programme have had to suffer across all sectors and decades. The last such report from a respected media source, issued before the March 2010 trials, indeed accused the DRDO of ramming the Arjun down the throats of the army. If only the DRDO had such pervasive influence!
"The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank Arjun. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials," a defence ministry spokesperson said here.

The additional 124 MBTs will allow the Army to raise an additional two regiments of these indigenously developed tanks. The Army already has inducted the original order of 124 tanks and the production line set aside for their production at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi near Chennai.
"After many years of trials and tribulations, the tank has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets and accurately hitting targets, both stationary and moving with pinpoint accuracy," the spokesperson said.
The Arjun/T-90 shoot-out
Strangely, the greatest favour the Arjun Main Battle Tank project ever received was from the Indian Army itself when stand-in army chief General Shankar Roy Chowdhary placed the first orders for the tank in a bid to industrialise the technology that had been developed by the DRDO. Though DRDO scientists breathed a sigh of relief, the attacks from interested quarters, both from within the army and outside, only increased in intensity. Defence imports are a big-ticket business after all.
Refusing to buckle under unceasing pressure from the army to wind up the programme and shift to developing a ''futuristic'', or Mark II version, of the Arjun, project scientists from the Defence and Research Development Organisation (DRDO) insisted on a showdown with the much touted Russian T-90, which the army had begun peddling as a panacea for all its armour related needs.
Faced with persistent demands from the DRDO the army initially tried its best to squirm out of a one-on-one with the T-90, rightly fearing that all its tall claims about the T-90, and critically, its determined campaign to run down all aspects of the Arjun MBT, would stand exposed.
Failing in its efforts to dilly dally its way through the process of organising such a one-on-one with the T-90 it finally held a summer trial in the deserts of Rajasthan this year only after letting it be known that this wasn't a 'comparative trial' but only a test to figure out the 'operational role' for the Arjun MBT.
The results of the March comparative trials, it is now being let known, was a shocker for the Indian Army top brass, who attended the test in surprisingly large numbers, with the Arjun outperforming and outgunning the T-90 in all departments of the game.
The T-90 currently serving with the Indian Army after all upgrades costs Rs17 crore, as against an Rs16 crore price tag for the Arjun. Larger orders for the Arjun will further bring down per unit costs.
The defence ministry decided last week to go in for the development of the second-generation of Arjun tanks.
domain-b.com : Chagrined army places additional orders for 124 Arjun Main Battle Tanks


----------



## illuminatidinesh

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by black flame View Post
> thambik yendha ooru
> Naan Coimbatore maaplai ngnaa.....neenga..?
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by connanxlrc1000 View Post
> andha ooru chennai thambi
> OMG u too a tamilian...pleasant surprise.


Hey guys Bloody Hell How many R u there like this....... Add me to that list Tamiliargale........ Enna oru santhosam ungalai ellam parka......


----------



## KS

illuminatidinesh said:


> Hey guys Bloody Hell How many R u there like this....... Add me to that list Tamiliargale........ Enna oru santhosam ungalai ellam parka......



WELCOME.....VARUGA VARUGA


----------



## airuah

illuminatidinesh said:


> Hey guys Bloody Hell How many R u there like this....... Add me to that list Tamiliargale........ Enna oru santhosam ungalai ellam parka......



enna uttudathinga pa...........


----------



## Udhaya

oru periya listae podalam pola.


----------



## Machoman

The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent grueling desert trials.

The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our Mechanized Forces. After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets  both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy.

Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.


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## xMustiiej70

report.....


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## Bagee

flaming arrow said:


> bagee its a artists impression with a lot of loophole
> 
> 1.The main gun shown here is smoothbore Arjun has a rifled gun
> 
> 2.The turret looks like that of an leopard 2
> 
> lets keep our fingers crossed hope we get to see a new turret design..something on he lines of a MERKAVA 4



yes if needed Israel can help at least the turret has to change in line with the international standards seriously i think if any thing has to change on arjun then it has to be at least the turret. and yes the gun is that of the m1a2 .......


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## FlyingSpagetti

I have to admit arjun is much much better than T-90 with lates tech from Israle etc, but u know ur beurocrats and Army procurment team, they dont gv a damn abt Solders but money!


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## Bagee

Udhaya said:


> oru periya listae podalam pola.



yar at least translate that in Hindi so that we guys can also understand any ways don't mind


----------



## Bagee

FlyingSpagetti said:


> I have to admit arjun is much much better than T-90 with lates tech from Israle etc, but u know ur beurocrats and Army procurment team, they dont gv a damn abt Solders but money!



yes mate that's what i am saying what army says is it's to heavy all the modern tanks made in todays world are more than 60 tons and bridges for what god sake tell them if a army retreats it doesn't leave infra behind so hell Indians are literate no stop making fool of them


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## KS

Bagee said:


> yar at least translate that in Hindi so that we guys can also understand any ways don't mind



Dude he just exclaimed that this much Tamil ppl are there in this forum and said u can make a big list out of this.


----------



## flaming arrow

FlyingSpagetti said:


> I have to admit arjun is much much better than T-90 with lates tech from Israle etc, but u know ur beurocrats and Army procurment team, they dont gv a damn abt Solders but money!



well comrade for Arjun saga thier have been just to many ups n downs and we simply cannot pass on a verdict see Arjun has seen its share of failures,and time slag...that was one big reason that army had no confidence in the machine which is quite normal but with jard work see what it has turned out to be criticism works wonder atleast it worked with arjun......

yes Arjun is better then T-90 but that does not mean that T-90 becomes any less potent..remember our doctrine is around light tanks because we have been using them since a long time.yet its time that we are bringing in changes which are good as it will give a new lease of life to the makers...any forthcoming project will have the basic know how as the makers have learned a awefull alot from thier mistakes..



> yes if needed Israel can help at least the turret has to change in line with the international standards seriously i think if any thing has to change on arjun then it has to be at least the turret. and yes the gun is that of the m1a2 .......


India and isreal have worked alot together..they were brought in because third party audit team which validated ARJUN'S performance was isreali.........
Many us may not even have a clue what has gone inside Arjun...i wont say its the best but trust me its no less then the best too...
Arjun mkII in my opinion wont be employing anything new in terms of turret design..NERA addition is a sign towards it..also if a new turret design comes it will take time..MKII wil be better in terms of electronics and a cetain systems related to commander's section...
In my opinion ARJUN MKI & ARJUN MKII ALONG WITH T-90 WILL BE THE TIP OF ARROW...may be after 2015 we may start talking about a FMBT with a radical new design...
last but not the least to my brothers frm south INDIA...we are representing INDIA HERE to plzz stick to the topic.by the way iam from New delhi


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## TATA

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude he just exclaimed that this much Tamil ppl are there in this forum and said u can make a big list out of this.



so are u going to start Tamil Sangam at PDF


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## KS

TATA said:


> so are u going to start Tamil Sangam at PDF



OMG...did another Tamil open his mouth..?

But thats a good idea...? wat say..?


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## ejaz007

The article is very long so I am posting the link only:

India Reverses Gear, Puts Arjun Tank Back in Production


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## Trichy

Karthic Sri said:


> OMG...did another Tamil open his mouth..?
> 
> But thats a good idea...? wat say..?



i too frm tamil nadu


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## Indiarox

im tamil toooo!!!!!!


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## SpArK

Karthic Sri said:


> OMG...did another Tamil open his mouth..?
> 
> But thats a good idea...? wat say..?



no divisions on linguistic basis pleasee..... athinge venaaa...


----------



## Indian_Idol

Indiarox said:


> im tamil toooo!!!!!!



me too me too...


----------



## gowthamraj

illuminatidinesh said:


> Hey guys Bloody Hell How many R u there like this....... Add me to that list Tamiliargale........ Enna oru santhosam ungalai ellam parka......



appadiyae ennaium sathikunga


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## gowthamraj

India Reverses Gear, Puts Arjun Tank Back in Production
18-May-2010 18:16 EDT
Related Stories: Asia - India, Events, Force Structure, Issues - Political, Lobbying, New Systems Tech, Other Corporation, Tanks & Mechanized




Arjun tank



Major article updates, as India reverses course. (May 17/10)

Indias indigenous Arjun tank project began in 1974, and originally aimed to replace the Russian T-54 and T-72 tanks which made up the bulk of that countrys armored firepower. As has often been the case in India, its DRDO government weapons development agency sought an entirely made in India solution, even though this would require major advances on a number of fronts for Indian industry. As has often been the case in India, the result was a long and checkered history filled with development delays, performance issues, mid-project specifications changes by Indias military, and the eventual purchase of both foreign substitutions within the project (now 58% of the tanks cost) and foreign competitors from outside it (the T-90S).

The 58.5 tonne Arjun tank wasnt fielded with the Indian Army until May 2009. In contrast, Pakistans much more time-limited, scope-limited, and budget conscious approach in developing and successfully fielding its T-80UD Al-Khalid tank is often cited by Arjuns detractors.

The Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of Indias future force, despite that tanks performance issues in hot weather. That wont change, but the Arjun now has a clear future in India

Arjun Cap, and T-90S Trade [updated]
Contracts & Key Events [updated]
Arjun Cap, and T-90S Trade


T-90, backside ollie
(click to view full)
The Arjun is an indigenous project, but not wholly so. Imported items such as the engine/ power pack, gunners main sight, and other components account for 58% of each tanks cost. This is not uncommon; Israels Merkava tank family also relies on a foreign-built engine, for instance, as does Frances Leclerc.

The Arjun has been plagued with a mix of problems over its 36-year development history, however, including its fire control system, suspension issues, and poor mobility due to excessive weight. It has also grown from a 40-tonne tank with a 105mm gun, to a 58.5 tonne tank with a 120mm gun. Predictably, project costs spiraled up from Rs 15.5 crore in 1974 to Rs 306 crore (INR 3.06 trillion). The army was not pleased. In an unusual stance, they accepted the tank only after a third-party audit by an international tank manufacturer, and orders were strictly limited.

The Indian army did not even stand up its 1st Arjun armored regiment until May 2009, and this event came after a development that seemed to end the platforms future. In July 2008, India had announced that production of the Arjun would be capped at the already-committed total of 124 vehicles. Instead, development would begin on a new next-generation tank, designed to survive and serve until 2040 or so.

That appeared to close the book on a failed project, but opinion in India was sharply split. Many observers cited this as the final failure that will close the book on a failed project. Other were noting the problems with the T-90s, and the Armys refusal to conduct side-by-side tests, alongside recent test successes that are earning the Arun some military fans. DRDO went so far as to make allegation of sabotage involving the Arjuns engine, and insists that a 500 vehicle order will give it the volume needed to iron out all production difficulties and provide a platform for future development.

In May 2010, following desert trials alongside the T-90S, the Army changed course somewhat. Arjun production would double to 248.

The Armys plan still calls for 1,657 T-90S Bhishma tanks at about 12 crore (currently $2.78 million) each if prices remain stable, about 1,000 of which are slated to be built in India by Avadi Heavy Industries, the same firm that builds the Arjuns. They will be joined by just 248 Arjuns at about 16.8 crore (currently $3.92 million) each, as well as 692 older T-72 tanks upgraded to the T-72M1 Ajeya standard. This overall plan changes the force structure proposed in 2006, from 3,780 tanks (1,302 T-90s and 2,480 T-72s) to 2,597 higher-end tanks.

Contracts & Key Events


T-90
(click to view full)
May 17/10: India decides that it will remove the production cap, and double production of the Arjun Mk I tank. So far, 75 of the 124 ordered Arjuns have been delivered, and the remaining 49 were to be delivered by mid-2010. Now, the production line will be extended:

The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun. [after] the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials. The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974. After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets  both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy.

Even so, the mainstay of Indias future tank fleet with remain the Russian T-90S. The governments DRDO agency still wants a minimum of 500 Arjuns ordered, to stabilize production lines until it can develop a Mark-II version. Indian government PIB release | Indias Business Standard | Deccan Chronicle | domain-b | Hindustan Times | Times of India.

May 13/10: The Indian government gives its approval to restructure the DRDO. Among the continued programs, however, is development of an MBT Arjun Mk-II tank. Indian government release | Defense News.

March 25/10: The Hindu Business Standard: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90. Excerpts:

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an army officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. The Arjuns sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the armys strike corps. Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

Note also the comparative chart, showing the Arjun compared to many international tanks.

Jan 16/10: IANS reports that the Arjun main battle tank will get its long-requested trials beside the Russian built T-90S tanks, in desert trials at the at Mahajan Range in Rajasthan on March 1st.

Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks, a senior official of the Indian Army said, wishing anonymity.

Despite that assurance, its generally acknowledged that poor performance in these tests would have consequences for the Arjun platform.

June 4/09: An article in The Hindu Business Line by a former member of the state-run Factory Ordnance Board, states that the Arjun may be attracting some export interest:

Miffed at the continued reluctance of the Army and armed with the credentials certified by independent audit, the DRDO is challenging the former to conduct comparative trials of T-90 and Arjun. The Army stalled such an exercise by first wanting at least 45 tanks in the regiment and then postponing the trials to October. The Army is also inserting tactical elements in the test directives. However, happily for HVF and the DRDO, it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country.

May 25/09: The Indian Army inducts its first Arjun Main Battle Tank armored regiment, adding 16 delivered tanks to bring the 43rd Armored Regiment up to its strength of 45. Lieutenant General D Bhardwaj, Director General Mechanized Forces (DGMF), accepts the new tanks during the induction ceremony. StratPost.

July 22/08: ANI reports from Indias Technology Seminar on Future Infantry Combat Vehicle and Future Main Battle Tank, and the winds all appear to be blowing toward greater private sector involvement.

Current Defence Minister A K Antony noted that the new defense purchase policy envisages a greater role for the private sector in supplying much needed equipment to the countrys armed forces, and added that the focus of the new rules and procedures in the defense procurement procedures 2008 (DPP 2008) is on ensuring speedier procurements. Also:

...Chief of the Army Staff, General Deepak Kapoor, pointed out that while technology was critical for any nations defence system, what was also needed was the need to check any time and procedural delays. He said that while it was important to stress on indigenisation and collaborative approach, we should not compromise on our operational capabilities.

....Lt. Gen. Dalip Bhardwaj, Director-General Mechanised Forces, said that the time was right for greater private sector involvement in supplying defence equipment. However, the industry must keep in mind the defence sectors end needs and not just the technology. According to him what the industry needs to do is to develop products that have a longer shelf life.

July 21/08: India and Russia may be gearing up to develop the T-90s successor as a joint project. Rediff quotes Nikolai Malykh, director general of Russias biggest tank producer Uralvagonzavod:

We put forward this idea (of developing the tank) at the turn of the 21st century. The Indian side has now come up with a similar proposal We will take the first step when our experts go to India to attend a conference on the future tank and prospects for the tank-building industry.

Moscow Defence Brief magazine claims that the new tank may have a new main gun of up to 152 mm caliber, higher speed, a smoother ride, improved networking, and an armor-protected crew compartment sealed from an unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader. A new hunter-killer fire control system would include target acquisition in optical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrum that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander.

This is interesting on 2 levels. One item worth noting is the BrahMos programs use as a model. If adopted, the successor program to the Arun tank is likely to have far less DRDO involvement and control. The second item is the feature set itself, which reflects Russian thinking. It is worth reminding oneself, however, no deal has been signed as of yet. And that initial wish lists for features are just that, until a working model is fielded. Rediff report.


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## black flame

BENNY said:


> no divisions on linguistic basis pleasee..... athinge venaaa...



dude no offense u from kerala rite


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## honour

black flame said:


> dude no offense u from kerala rite



enough yaaar...we r from India...that's enough......nothing else


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## KS

honour said:


> enough yaaar...we r from India...that's enough......nothing else



Aaaawwww...cmon mate we can appreciate the taste of sugar only if we know wat is bitter.

The beauty is we fight for petty issues among tamil,marathi,kannada....but wen situation comes we stand up and say "MERA BHARAT MAHAN"....therein lies the beauty and the meaning of the sentence "UNITY IN DIVERSITY"....:india flag:

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## CONNAN

Karthic Sri said:


> Aaaawwww...cmon mate we can appreciate the taste of sugar only if we know wat is bitter.
> 
> The beauty is we fight for petty issues among tamil,marathi,kannada....but wen situation comes we stand up and say "MERA BHARAT MAHAN"....therein lies the beauty and the meaning of the sentence "UNITY IN DIVERSITY"....:india flag:



http://*************.net/flag-smiley-7331.gif

*&#1575;&#1587; &#1593;&#1592;&#1740;&#1605; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1740; &#1575;&#1578;&#1581;&#1575;&#1583;*


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## CONNAN

When Arjun beat T-90 idrw.org

*Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament*

The long and intensely tortuous development process of the Arjun has earned it considerable notoriety as a landmark case study of bad project management which crystallised and hardened cynicism amongst the user community, and though the tank still remains technologically contemporary, its prolonged gestation has already made it due for midlife upgradation. This is not unusual in series tank production, but with Arjun this will have to be incorporated on the production line with the very initial batch itself as and when series production commences, again only if substantial orders flow in from the users. In this context, it is understood that the DRDO would like an initial production order of 300-500 numbers of Arjun tanks to be placed, instead of the present 124, understandable as well as justifiable, because a larger run of initial production will facilitate rectification and upgradation on the production line. Generations of armour officers (now mostly superannuated) still shudder at recollections of the Vijayanta where an unproven and basically unsatisfactory design procured in a hurry turned into a highly defect prone tank which had to be intensively modified along the way on the production line until the later models were quite different from the initial batches (but nevertheless remained unsatisfactory!). Transfer of technology is also dependent on production numbers because foreign vendors refuse to transfer their best technology for limited production series if further production appears unlikely.

However, the sunny side is that the development processes has already stimulated growth in small but very high technology manufacturing agencies even if production lines for prototype models have been quite limited. These agencies are of course capital intensive, but have mainly come up in the medium and small scale private sector which is surely encouraging.

Retention of user confidence in the Arjun requires a sustained process of engineering and quality control by the DRDO and the ordnance factories which has not been their strong point so far. Unless the government succeeds in enforcing accountability on its agencies, for continuous technological upgradation of the tank while on the production line as well as quality control standards, MBT Arjun, a tank of contemporary design, will again loose the confidence of the user community. It is evident that MBT Arjun is emerging as touchstone case for the DRDO and HVF Avadi to prove their detractors wrong!

There is a requirement for government to break the mould of its traditional mindset and associate the considerable talents and capacities of the private sector as well as technological academia with the development and production of the Arjun. The private sector is better aware of the importance of continuous quality control for market survival amidst intense competition, something to which ordnance factories, used to assured monopoly markets over the armed forces, are not accustomed, and often accept lower quality standards because their commercial survival is not a factor.

At the end of it all, the Arjun remains a good standard design, extremely badly executed so far which can still be rescued but only if the ministry of defence can enforce accountability on the DRDO and the Ordnance Factory Board for technological upgradation, design rectification and enforcement of quality control within a laid down timeframe and as an ongoing process. This did not appear to be the case earlier, when the initial production batch of five tanks were formally handed over to the Army with much fanfare, and then immediately retrieved by the factory after the ceremony to rectify quality shortfalls as demanded by the exasperated users! These and other negative experiences have hardened user cynicism, but all that must become water under the bridge now, and users must accept Arjun as a Mark I version to be upgraded and improved during further production into a Mark II and beyond. The extension of the MBT programme into variants and derivatives based on the Arjun chassis must also begin to take shape, such as the planned Bhim self-propelled 155mm tracked artillery system for which earlier trials to adapt the T-72 tank chassis on the cheap had failed signally. (Similar ill-judged experimentation with the T-90 would be best avoided!).

*In a wider national context, fielding the MBT Arjun is important for Indias contemporary and future strategic leadership as well as nascent military-industrial complex. Indigenous capabilities for development and production of sophisticated capital defence equipment are vital strategic capabilities for which Arjun, Tejas, Agni and the ATV (advanced technology vessel) have to be seen in their true geopolitical perspective as statements by an India seeking a world presence in the 21st century*


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## Hulk

I am not really someone who will believe easily that it is better then T90, I will take it with pinch of Salt. I definitely feel we have a good tank and thats it.


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## EyelessInGaza

connanxlrc1000 said:


> When Arjun beat T-90 idrw.org
> ..........[/B]



Ok, I know the Arjun is supposed to have beaten the T-90 in trials but this article does not reflect the headline.

I guess one is now coming to understand the IA point of view? At it's core - QC, QC, QC.

I don't know if Avadhi (the Ord factory) is up to enforcing QC (not DRDO's fault). I think we need to think about handing over production to the private sector. 

Won't be easy but sarkari manufacturing does not fill me with confidence either.

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## black flame

honour said:


> enough yaaar...we r from India...that's enough......nothing else



no man i just asked him out of curiosity after seeing his profile pic nothing else and i just got excited after meeting so many Tamils thats all


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## maithil

So, ARJUN HAS arrived finally...eh?


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## gogbot

EyelessInGaza said:


> Ok, I know the Arjun is supposed to have beaten the T-90 in trials but this article does not reflect the headline.
> 
> I guess one is now coming to understand the IA point of view? At it's core - QC, QC, QC.
> 
> I don't know if Avadhi (the Ord factory) is up to enforcing QC (not DRDO's fault). I think we need to think about handing over production to the private sector.
> 
> Won't be easy but sarkari manufacturing does not fill me with confidence either.



you hit the nail on its head.

The Army's problems with INSAS has also all been quality related.

This is where we desperate need PV or PPP .

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## shaktiman2010

Indian Army top brass should be ashamed for delaying such wonderful home-made weapon system.

No wonder corruption is so common even at top level in army. Most of senior RAW agents who sold out themselves were ex-army types.

All these army morons can only whine when some journalist questions them about corruption in army. They want to be treated like saints. LOL.

But, finally DRDO proved them wrong by beating junk and blind T-90 in night trials.


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## flaming arrow

*This comes from the recent trials btw ARJUN & T-90*

Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability,and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

Phase I: This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair werechecked for various subsystems of the tanks.

Phase II: This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana.Check was made for medium fording capability.

Phase III: This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges,Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition,firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency,rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks.

Phase IV:This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. Mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km.
MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials.
An indigenous data logger for transmission control system of MBT Arjun has been developed by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment(CVRDE), Chennai.The data logger is integrated to production series MBT Arjun, and data logging has also been carried out successfully.
http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/2010/jun10.pdf


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## flaming arrow

The Indian Army received on 25 May its third batch of 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks (MBT) which is being made by the Combat Vehicles Research of and Development Establishment (CVRDE), a part of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The CVRDE is building a total of 124 such tanks. It had bagged the order worth $352 million in year 2000. The MBT Arjun tank can fire at a range of 3-4 km and has superb mobility. It is equipped with high protection facility.

The CVRDE has already delivered 29 MBTs in two instalments till March this year. The current and final delivery would mark the successful completion of the distribution of First Arjun Regiment. Each Regiment consists of 45 MBTs.

Arjun MBT is a state-of-the-art tank with superior fire power, high mobility, and excellent protection. Twelve Mk 1 prototypes of MBT Arjun have been manufactured and their performance tests have provided satisfactory results. Some of the breakthroughs achieved by CVRDE during the development of MBT Arjun are in Engine, Hull and Turret, and Gun Control System.

The superior armour defeating capability of the indigenously developed Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition and 120 mm calibre rifled gun give MBT ARJUN an edge over contemporary world tanks. A computer-controlled integrated fire control system incorporating day-and-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.
Indian Army Inducts 16 Arjun Tanks | India Defence Online

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## IndianArmy

Wonderful News


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## gowthamraj

Wow i am happy to see our armed forces starting to induct our home made products like AKASH Arjun nag dhruv etc. . 



Now no more criticism on DRDO


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## shiningindia

i think after arjun vs t-90 trial. army should order more than 500 tank of arjun. and should order more than 2000 tank of drdo next generation tank instead of ordering 2000 tank of t-90.


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## WAQAS119

Is this first ever induction of Arjun Tank?


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## Kinetic

Two pics of Arjun during trial......... from DRDO website....

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## shiningindia

no..already 65 tank delivered to army.


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## sohan

India doesn't even have the industrial capability to build the 2000 tanks in a decent timeframe.

I think 500 should have been okayed though


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## gogbot

*This is old news , read the source it is dated may 29, 2009*

The first regiment is already inducted , and has participated in the march 2010 trials.


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## Aslan

flaming arrow said:


> [/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]



I have a question that what are the barrels at the back for, if they are for storing fuel dont that make the tank venerable to RPG or any other kind of fire.


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## sivadreams

khalidali said:


> I have a question that what are the barrels at the back for, if they are for storing fuel dont that make the tank venerable to RPG or any other kind of fire.



I too was wondering what it is? but the fuel cant be of just two barrels.

Arjun Fuel capacity is 430 gal and in that sense there needs to be at least 10 barrels out there.

Is there anybody who can shed some light here on those two barrels at the back.


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## gajju

I think those barrels are for when it is moving thru enemy territory, you have to get to the battle before you start the fight?

Tank transporters are not feasible in hostile territory. The diesel drums increase the range of the tank.

When the site of the battle is reached they can be jettisoned. In any case the tank is made in such a fashion that it is protected from the front so some one has to sneak up to the rear and then these are also designed to blow away from the tank in case they are hit. Such are the costs of war, that you cannot plan conservatively.


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## Aslan

gajju said:


> I think those barrels are for when it is moving thru enemy territory, you have to get to the battle before you start the fight?
> 
> Tank transporters are not feasible in hostile territory. The diesel drums increase the range of the tank.



They do increase the range but what about and rpg attack from the back or even a strayed bullet, and it can spell disaster for the tank. There should be some other explanation for the 2 tanks, may be Indianarmy sir can shed some light on it.


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## Aslan

gajju said:


> When the site of the battle is reached they can be jettisoned. In any case the tank is made in such a fashion that it is protected from the front so some one has to sneak up to the rear and then these are also designed to blow away from the tank in case they are hit. Such are the costs of war, that you cannot plan conservatively.



Thats possible but then I have not seen any new gen tanks with such an open display of a fuel tank on the.


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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> They do increase the range but what about and rpg attack from the back or even a strayed bullet, and it can spell disaster for the tank. There should be some other explanation for the 2 tanks, may be Indianarmy sir can shed some light on it.



Carrying fuel drums are not a New technology, Have a Look at T-72.. The main purpose is its range, Its as vulnerable as the other parts of the tank, it would not catch fire if some bullets are hit, it has extra coating Of Armour than Given to the chassis . 

When You are advancing towards the enemy territory Your tanks shouldnt stop... So for extra range this is Helpful, and Look How its protected... 

This indeed was a wise decision to make

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## IndianArmy

khalidali said:


> Thats possible but then I have not seen any new gen tanks with such an open display of a fuel tank on the.



Those are not fuel tanks, those are extra fuel barrels which automatically Keeps the Fuel tank engaged when needed.....

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## gajju

Have a feeling there is room for 2 more barrels in the cradle where the number 221 is painted or it may be that is a reserve position and the tanks have to be raised to allow fuel flow under gravity.


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## IndianArmy

gajju said:


> Have a feeling there is room for 2 more barrels in the cradle where the number 221 is painted or it may be that is a reserve position and the tanks have to be raised to allow fuel flow under gravity.



That would be an Over kill, Scientists are trying to reduce weight and You want to Increase it??? 

2 by itself is more, 1 is more than enough...


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## gajju

Why should we reduce weight? Is the idea to create a size zero tank or one that offers a judicious mix of mobility, firepower and protection?

Also if the drums are raised as high as they are the gun/turret probably cannot rotate 360 degrees so this raised position is effectively an engage position, kind of like the engage position for reserve fuel in old bajaj scooters and when not required they can be lowered into the cradle reducing the tanks silhouette and allowing 360 degree freedom of movement for gun. My 2 cents.


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## IndianArmy

Reducing weight would be helpful in Logistical support, and why cannot the turret rotate 360 degrees? carefully look at the pictures, it perfect.... You dont need to lower it as You are not gonna Kill a Mouse or a Cat with that turret, but a Medium size vehicle.. So This is perfect configuration... Turret can Move freely , The Barrel will not collide with the Drum,New Arjuns turret can do a 360 in 9 seconds and has elevation/depression angles of +20 degrees and -9 degrees

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## Chaluboy

The Arjun MBT's Final Trial By Fire Detailed






The photo of Arjun MBTs above and the following detailed account appears in the latest DRDO newsletter: Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

Phase I: This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair were checked for various subsystems of the tanks. Phase II: This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana. Check was made for medium fording capability. Phase III: This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges, Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition, firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency, rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks. Phase IV:This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. Mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km. MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials. 

Text & Photo Copyright DRDO

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## flaming arrow

[/URL][/IMG]

Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

Phase I: This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair were checked for various subsystems of the tanks. Phase II: This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana. Check was made for medium fording capability. Phase III: This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges, Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition, firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency, rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks. Phase IV:This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. Mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km. MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials.


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## CONNAN

The Arjun MBT&#8217;s Final Trial By Fire Detailed idrw.org







The photo of Arjun MBTs above and the following detailed account appears in the latest DRDO newsletter: Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

*Phase I:* This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair were checked for various subsystems of the tanks. 

*Phase II:* This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana. Check was made for medium fording capability. 

*Phase III:* This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges, Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition, firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency, rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks. 

*Phase IV:*This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km. MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials.

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## shiningindia

i think arjun tank should be sold to foreign military like insas rifle. because corrupted indian army never buy it any more.


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## RPK




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## Chanakyaa

DRDO has surely made us all proud.. with Arjun.
Jai Ho.


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## applesauce

shiningindia said:


> i think arjun tank should be sold to foreign military like insas rifle. because corrupted indian army never buy it any more.



problem is whos gonna buy it and also the foreign companies involved in its production must also agree(and they are very involved)

also i thought trial by fire means its was used in war but okay w/e


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## gogbot

applesauce said:


> problem is whos gonna buy it and also the foreign companies involved in its production must also agree(and they are very involved)



There has been an RFI made regarding the Arjun , but i doubt it would be sold and there are no likely buyers at this time. While the Tank may have trumped the T-90 , India i still a new player on the market , and inducting a new tank from a new supplier is huge logistics investment.

Also to remember Arjun Still uses nearly 40% imported systems in its construction. Most notably the German Engine. 

While There is work to make a domestic gas turbine engine for the Arjun and future tanks it is still a ways of.



applesauce said:


> also i thought trial by fire means its was used in war but okay w/e



well to be fair this trial was just short of that. 
This was a crucial point for the Arjun. 
If the Arjun had disappointed the observers , or given any cause to the critics ,who have been very vocal about what they though of the tank.

It would have been the last Word on the Arjun.

Thankfully however the Arjun out gunned , outperformed the T-90.
It doubles its order to 248 tanks with a stunning show.
Secured funding for the Arjun Mk-II
And silenced all neigh sayers in doing so.

Pre March 2010 , you will find dozens of articles with so called "experts" questioning the tank. After the trials , nothing DRDO has quite hooray , army begrudging is forced to acknowledge the Arjun and silently places another order for 2 more regiments and Critics disappear from whence they came.


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## navtrek

The photo of Arjun MBTs above and the following detailed account appears in the latest DRDO newsletter: Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. 

The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

*Phase I:* This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair were checked for various subsystems of the tanks. 

*Phase II:* This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana. Check was made for medium fording capability. 

*Phase III:* This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges, Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition, firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency, rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks. 

*Phase IV:*This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. Mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km. MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials.


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## ISRO

well its good see Arjun`s performance


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## archangel

khalidali said:


> Thats possible but then I have not seen any new gen tanks with such an open display of a fuel tank on the.



If you haven't seen, you should rather check the images of the French Leclerc in Wikipedia.


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## Tejas-MkII

One request to MODS as arjun got order of total of 250 tanks and GoI give go ahead of MkII 

*Please Make this as a STICKY THREAD*


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## archangel

Actually you guys are getting it wrong. A tank never operates beyond a range of ~500km. The Fuel tanks behind it are used when the tank is to be moved to some place via roadways and not in the battlefields. And they don't blow up so easily. So cheer up............


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## flanker143

can some plzz tell dat why IA is still goin in for t 90s even when arjun has proved its mattle, is it just due to cost problems or corruption ???


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## sunakaffck

order for 1000 t-90's was placed before the competition. now waiting for arjun mk2 with even superior performance.


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## xMustiiej70

Why is Arjun tank not popular?
I mean is it the performance?
Because the performance is kinda good.
I mean far away from challanger 2,leopard and the future tank altay but still i think it deserves top 10 list.


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## ramu

xMustiiej70 said:


> Why is Arjun tank not popular?
> I mean is it the performance?
> Because the performance is kinda good.
> I mean far away from challanger 2,leopard and the future tank altay but still i think it deserves top 10 list.



It is a matter of confidence in the defence research institutions in the country. Indian armed forces love the sophisticated arms imported and have got habituated to it. Any change is resisted in large organisations and that was the initial hiccups. Once the army realised the issue, things are falling back on track.

Arjun is hugely underrated around the world. A system that can prove its worth in a war is the real champion and I think Arjun can surprise the enemy.


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## xMustiiej70

ramu said:


> It is a matter of confidence in the defence research institutions in the country. Indian armed forces love the sophisticated arms imported and have got habituated to it. Any change is resisted in large organisations and that was the initial hiccups. Once the army realised the issue, things are falling back on track.
> 
> Arjun is hugely underrated around the world. A system that can prove its worth in a war is the real champion and I think Arjun can surprise the enemy.



Yea i do agree.
But the design of the arjun dont really look smart..
I mean.. It looks old..
The body design and the turret.
Or is it just a tank with high fire power.
and the rest is kinda5/10?


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## anathema

xMustiiej70 said:


> Yea i do agree.
> *But the design of the arjun dont really look smart..*
> *I mean.. It looks old..*
> The body design and the turret.
> Or is it just a tank with high fire power.
> and the rest is kinda5/10?



What is not smart about Arjun ? What is old about Arjun ? Can you please point me in the right direction, i will try to answer your question.


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## Super Falcon

i think arjun in war will have heavy losses because it is toooo heavy for desert dont have smooth fire control


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## anathema

Super Falcon said:


> i think arjun in war will have heavy losses because it is toooo heavy for desert dont have *smooth fire control*



On the contrary Arjun was extensively tested against T-90 in desert with special emphasis on *mobility and fire power*. There was unofficial report which stated that Arjun managed to hit *all 10 targets *on the run as well as stationary which was assigned to it whereas T90 managed to score only* 5.* (on the run). Needless to say IA officials were taken back, this resulted in more orders and further funding for Arjun-2. You can also read the report from Livefist on how the tanks were compared. So i wouldnt say that just because its heavy it will not perform well in battle. 

But i have my concerns in transpotting the tank over to battle fields / over rives / valleys , etc...Long time back the IA infantry bridges & Railways were not capable of handling Arjun's weight however the recent word (From Ajai Shukla) is that it is no longer the case. The infantry bridges are all modified. 

I didnt understand when you it doesnt have smooth fire control..Can you explain what caused you to say that ?

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## gogbot

Super Falcon said:


> i think arjun in war will have heavy losses because it is toooo heavy for desert dont have smooth fire control



Well it did better in both categories then the T-90 

I don't know what you standards are , but the Trials , which were desert Trials showed the Arjun to have better accuracy and superior mobility.

So , if you want to underestimate the Arjun do s at your own risk.


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## gogbot

anathema said:


> What is not smart about Arjun ? What is old about Arjun ? Can you please point me in the right direction, i will try to answer your question.



He means the Turret design.

It is not that it is not smart , having that turret shape has it own advantages , firstly more room for crew and equipment

Is the Design old , most definitely yes.
We can do much better with if we designed a new one.
But it only lacks in vertically sloped angled armour.
THe armour Still slopes horizontally at the front.
And slightly vertical on the top.

Are the materials old , no . The armour is very good and proved it self in trials


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## anathema

gogbot said:


> He means the Turret design.
> 
> It is not that it is not smart , having that turret shape has it own advantages , firstly *more room for crew and equipment*
> 
> Are the materials old , no . The armour is very good and proved it self in trials



Is that the only advantage ? I mean Arjun as is comfortable compared to T 90 (according to tank commanders). I believe it should be more than that ? Do we use slopping turret design to deflect some of the kinectic energy of the projecticle ? Atleast thats what merkava does... 

Is Kanchan still the armour ? Or have we replaced it with something else ?


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## ptldM3

anathema said:


> On the contrary Arjun was extensively tested against T-90 in desert with special emphasis on *mobility and fire power*. There was unofficial report which stated that Arjun managed to hit *all 10 targets *on the run as well as stationary which was assigned to it whereas T90 managed to score only* 5.* (on the run).



I would take that unoficial report with a truck load of salt, in other exercises in both India and Russia the T-90 was able to hit all of its targets, on one occasion a T-90 hit all 7 targets in 54 second while on the move (world record btw) that same T-90 hit 4 more targets after it broke the world record.

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## Indiarox

ptldM3 said:


> I would take that unoficial report with a truck load of salt, in other exercises in both India and Russia the T-90 was able to hit all of its targets, on one occasion a T-90 hit all 7 targets in 54 second while on the move (world record btw) that same T-90 hit 4 more targets after it broke the world record.


which terrain was that exercise carries out in??


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## xMustiiej70

Is the T-90 the only tank that will face arjun?
is the desert the only place where arjun will face t-90?
What if they face other russian,chinese,european tanks? or other arab tanks?
in snow? rain? storm? mountains?


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## blueoval79

xMustiiej70 said:


> Is the T-90 the only tank that will face arjun?
> 
> What if they face other russian,chinese,european tanks? or other arab tanks?



Well T90 is one of the best tanks in its generation ...and how many countries have a better tank than T90.........that are sharing borders with India...or would get into conflict with India?




> is the desert the only place where arjun will face t-90?
> in snow? rain? storm? mountains?



Geography people.....learn....India border with Pakistan....is mostly flat land...and mostly arid and desert.....and Thats precisely where its going to fight....There will be different tanks for Mountain regions.....

Tanks dont go in snow...there are special equipments for that...

Storm and rain...Arjun has shown abilities of maneuvering under more than 6 Feet water...


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## IndianArmy

xMustiiej70 said:


> Is the T-90 the only tank that will face arjun?



No, but You can only compete the Tank with the best In Your Arsenal, You cannot compete with Each and everything, and if it serves better and It offers More than What Army has asked for.



xMustiiej70 said:


> is the desert the only place where arjun will face t-90?



Most Likely yes..... But Why only T-90?



xMustiiej70 said:


> What if they face other russian,chinese,european tanks? or other arab tanks?



It will be the same fate, will be Outgunned, *Again*......



xMustiiej70 said:


> in snow? rain? storm? mountains?



I see, A good Question, But if An MBT can sustain -43 degree and +55 degree celsius , and can move on the toughest of terrains why need to bother??


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## xMustiiej70

hm.. well i dunno.
i wasn't impressed with any of the indian military.


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## blueoval79

xMustiiej70 said:


> hm.. well i dunno.
> i wasn't impressed with any of the indian military.



And we Indians... don't give it an ants AZZ...

You are just here for trolling......you have done your job....please leave.


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## IndianArmy

blueoval79 said:


> Tanks dont go in snow...there are special equipments for that...



What?????


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## blueoval79

IndianArmy said:


> What?????



Sorry ...I think I meant...mountain peaks...and glaciers as is the case with India....


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## IndianArmy

blueoval79 said:


> Sorry ...I think I meant...mountain peaks...and glaciers as is the case with India....



Not exactly, But Yeah.... T-72 is guarding such terrains In India


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## gogbot

IndianArmy said:


> Not exactly, But Yeah.... T-72 is guarding such terrains In India



Can't the T-90 also guard these places ?

IS this why we need T-72 in such numers ?


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## archangel

gogbot said:


> Can't the T-90 also guard these places ?
> 
> IS this why we need T-72 in such numers ?



Well, why not. It would do it even better, if given an opportunity.

But wait a second, has anyone seen a tank on the mountains??????

Please show some photo evidence or official texts..........


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## IndianArmy

gogbot said:


> Can't the T-90 also guard these places ?
> 
> IS this why we need T-72 in such numers ?



T-72 has been seriously put to test on hard Russian Snowy terrains and used here, Where as T-90 has been Modified According to Our Specifications , We needed a Tank Which Should work in climates above 50 degree and T-90 Bhishma Does it....


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## gogbot

IndianArmy said:


> T-72 has been seriously put to test on hard Russian Snowy terrains and used here, Where as T-90 has been Modified According to Our Specifications , We needed a Tank Which Should work in climates above 50 degree and T-90 Bhishma Does it....



But the T-72's are aged tanks with a shrinking fleet , having to reply on them completely in this terrain , especially when we have two other fine tanks in the forces.

I can understand the problem of getting the Arjun into these area's , transport would be problem.

But wouldn't it be prudent to have more equipped armour units also supplement the T-72's.

Especially since i would assume the attack helicopters can't reach these places.

Do you have any Idea, what kind of tanks the other sides may deploy against us in these areas, sir ?

I am sure we could get T-90's into the Area if need be.


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## IndianArmy

gogbot said:


> But the T-72's are aged tanks with a shrinking fleet , having to reply on them completely in this terrain , especially when we have two other fine tanks in the forces.



But It is the Most potent Tank In that terrain, And thats one main reason its getting Upgraded.... T-72 is an Underestimated Tank.



gogbot said:


> I can understand the problem of getting the Arjun into these area's , transport would be problem.



Not Necessarily, Its not wise Decision to Air Lift Arjun MBT, It can be transported Via Rail. But the Problem is, We have a large fleet of T-72's operating In those areas, and Neither Arjun Nor T-90 can Be replaced there due to obvious reasons.



gogbot said:


> But wouldn't it be prudent to have more equipped armour units also supplement the T-72's.



Those Borders are peaceful, and Heavily Equipping those borders is an Over Kill, Both these nations cannot Oppose each other With Their tank thrust , Thats why Airforce has been Opted Instead.



gogbot said:


> Especially since i would assume the attack helicopters can't reach these places.



Why not? They can, But dont expect those to Go as high as the Himalayas, but in Ladakh and Sikkim, aksai Chin..



gogbot said:


> Do you have any Idea, what kind of tanks the other sides may deploy against us in these areas, sir ?



They got everything



gogbot said:


> I am sure we could get T-90's into the Area if need be.



Why not??? If the situation Wants it there, We could


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## flanker143

> T-72 has been seriously put to test on hard Russian Snowy terrains and used here, Where as T-90 has been Modified According to Our Specifications , We needed a Tank Which Should work in climates above 50 degree and T-90 Bhishma Does it....



i heard IA is having problems with t 90's thermal imagers at such temperatures !!!!

also read this one !!!!!

Broadsword: The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's armour of deception 



and this one too !!!!!

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread214509/pg1

*THIS IS WHAT I CALL ---------PURE CORRUPTION !!!!!!*

AND THEY SAY ARJUN IS FLAWED, T 90 IS MORE FUTURISTIC .....PERFORMS BETTER ....*ALL BULLSHIT* 

AND AFTER THE RECENT T90 BASHING BY ARJUN ....... THEY AGAIN SHAMELESSLY SAY THAT T 90 IS GOING TO BE THEIR MAIN TANK AND ARJUN TO BE PROCURED IN SMALLER NO.S

LETS GET IT MORE STRAIGHT !!!!


NOT BUYING ARJUN AS IT IS NOT UP TO THE MARK(WHICH IS NOT SO)...FINE UNDERSTOOD 

BUT THEN WHY BUY THAT CRAPPY T 90 ... WHICH IS EVEN DOWN RATED THAN ARJUN !!!! 

WHY IS INDIAN ARMY BEING PARTIAL TOWARDS T90 !!!!!

ONE REASON ..............

THEY GOT RUSSIAN MONEY STUFFED IN THEIR POCKETS..........!!!!!!!


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> i heard IA is having problems with t 90's thermal imagers at such temperatures !!!!
> 
> also read this one !!!!!
> 
> Broadsword: The T-90 tank: Piercing the army's armour of deception
> 
> 
> 
> and this one also !!!!!
> 
> Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army, page 1



You want me to comment on such news???


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## flanker143

> You want me to comment on such news???



i didn't get u ??

dont tell me u support t 90 and u r not aware of corruption in army !!


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> i didn't get u ??
> 
> dont tell me u support t 90 and u r not aware of corruption in army !!



You are judjing Your Army based on just a news?? Why not judge it by going there, Are You daring Enough to do that My son?? There Is corruption, But Dont do Propaganda based on that....

We are not Buying T-90 without proper reasons, And Those reasons are Not willing to be Shared, So Media is given an opportunity to exploit our Silence, And The nation Believes the Media more than those who guard You, What is our need to Stand there all night, guarding someone who we do not know??? and Who are You all to tell the army what is right and what is wrong?

Easy to Sit on a chair, Switch on the AC, Eat well and Give an Advise.... So Please before making a Comment sit and think, there is a certain reason behind what *Your *Army Is Doing, What more do you need that Your Protection which we assure.

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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> *THIS IS WHAT I CALL ---------PURE CORRUPTION !!!!!!*
> 
> AND THEY SAY ARJUN IS FLAWED, T 90 IS MORE FUTURISTIC .....PERFORMS BETTER ....*ALL BULLSHIT*



Yes T-90 has a better platform than the Arjun which is Introduced late, while the army was striving to have Arjun Of today in the Late 2000's



flanker143 said:


> AND AFTER THE RECENT T90 BASHING BY ARJUN ....... THEY AGAIN SHAMELESSLY SAY THAT T 90 IS GOING TO BE THEIR MAIN TANK AND ARJUN TO BE PROCURED IN SMALLER NO.S



Obviously, T-90 has been ordered on a larger scale,And what makes You thinks that Ordering Arjun More than T-90 is a wise decision?

Arjun has been ordered and The funds for a better tank has been given, Let DRDO Present it and we would Order it, Arjun has been given more than enough time by the army.



flanker143 said:


> LETS GET IT MORE STRAIGHT !!!!
> 
> 
> NOT BUYING ARJUN AS IT IS NOT UP TO THE MARK(WHICH IS NOT SO)...FINE UNDERSTOOD



Who said we are not buying Arjun? we have limited the order as DRDO is Working on a futuristic tank based on Arjun, So what makes You think we would waste more money on Arjun?



flanker143 said:


> BUT THEN WHY BUY THAT CRAPPY T 90 ... WHICH IS EVEN DOWN RATED THAN ARJUN !!!!



Crappy T-90??? Let me Know how??? Please care to answer it.



flanker143 said:


> WHY IS INDIAN ARMY BEING PARTIAL TOWARDS T90 !!!!!



It deserves our Partiality thats why, it fits Our need, see Indian army can go for more powerful tanks if needed Like Leopard, We dint because It jsut dosent suit us, We dont want the best tank in the world, why dont You understand that we need a tanks which suits our Role..



flanker143 said:


> ONE REASON ..............
> 
> THEY GOT RUSSIAN MONEY STUFFED IN THEIR POCKETS..........!!!!!!!



Yes, Open Our Pocket and You would see Blood falling from it, A blood which has been shed for Citizens who were not worth for it......

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## IndianArmy

Self delete


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## saurabh

@IndianArmy

Can you shed some light regarding the trials? Some points favoring T-90 (apart from timeline)?


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## IndianArmy

saurabh said:


> @IndianArmy
> 
> Can you shed some light regarding the trials? Some points favoring T-90 (apart from timeline)?



Sorry dear,displaying ones strength will in turn display ones Weakness, I cannot do that , and More over I do not know..

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## gogbot

Found this article in the google new's

B? ?&#244;i xe t?ng t? ch? c?a qu&#226;n ??i ?n ?? - X&#227;Lu?n.com tin t?c Vi?t Nam c?p nh?t 24 gi? 

Considering it's a neutral source , thought it might be nice to see how the outside world views the Arjun.

The page is in Vietnamess , but i am posting google chrome's translated transcript.

Any one who wants to see the source can do so using the chome browser or google translate.



> *The duo of self-made tanks , Indian army*
> 
> In recent years, India imports a lot of modern weapons such as missiles, aircraft, tanks, infantry guns. Thereby, they learn to experience manufacturing military equipment and achieved many accomplishments. Especially in the manufacturing sector tanks - armored, Indian Army "restraint" are two types of growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Main battle tank Arjun
> *
> The first prototype of the Arjun tank was born in 1984. A year later, it was introduced to the public. Arjun is intended to replace the main battle tank T-72 and Vijayanta (Soviet production) are serving in Indian Army.
> 
> Arjun design style similar to the German Leopard tanks. Arjun's weight up to 58.5 tons, heavier than the cars of the Soviet army used in India now.
> 
> Vehicle body and turret of the Arjun is covered by the general Kanchan armor. Kanchan considered generally similar to the second generation Chobham armour on British tanks. If necessary, can be reinforced with layers of ERA (explosive reactive armour) to improve protection for vehicles.
> 
> Arjun was 120mm cannon riffled barrel (the number of rounds carried 39), fire HEAT ammunition types (explosive anti-tank shells out), APFSDS (ammunition regularly break), HE (high explosive ammunition destruction), HESH (high explosive rounds zipped) . This type guns are believed to have very high accuracy, even in range or when shooting moving vehicles.
> 
> Especially, the 120mm cannon was also fired anti-tank missile has semi-active laser guided LAHAT (Israel's) through the barrel. LAHAT missiles used to destroy armored vehicles and low flying attack helicopters. Arjun secondary weapons include a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and 12.7 mm air defense machine gun on the turret.
> 
> However, because the device is not equipped with automatic loading of Arjun firing speed is quite slow, only 6 to 8 rounds per minute with manual operation.
> 
> Technology navigation and fire control is provided by the Israeli firm Elbit Systems. Fire control system is a two-axis stabilized with high precision equipment to replace analog controls early life, because it can not be a problem when performing their tasks in extreme conditions of the desert. But the new fire control system is also frequently problems occur when the temperature exceeds 42oC.
> 
> The combination of daytime and viewfinder thermal image formed viewfinder for the gunner of the vehicle. Tank commanders are equipped with panoramic viewfinder cover stability, allowing himself to find and kill or transfer target to the gunner.
> 
> In addition, Arjun has commanded combat system is the product of cooperation between the DRDO (India) and Elbit Systems (Israel), allowing it to connect to other combat units. Arjun can connect with other tanks, through this system.
> 
> The tank has an automatic fire extinguishing system, the system protects against radiation-birth-chemical (NBC). This is a feature that most modern battle tanks indispensable.
> 
> Arjun equipped with diesel engines MTU 838 Ka-501 1400 hp. Despite weighing nearly 60 tons of speed but its move on the road with a relatively high (72km / h), a range of 450km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Main battle tank Tank-Ex (MBT-Ex)
> *
> Tank-Ex/MBT-Ex the name of the new tank developed by the Agency and Defence Research India (DRDO) developed in 2002. Originally intended as an alternative to obsolete T-72M1 tanks.
> 
> Tank-Ex designed based on the T-72M1 vehicle body frame and turret Arjun. Total weight of the tank is 41 tons (slightly heavier than the T- 72M1). Like Arjun, vehicles equipped with synthetic Kanchan armour and if necessary will allow installation of explosive reactive armour to increase defense against anti-tank ammunition, explosives or ammunition destroyed.
> 
> Tank-Ex fire is also a 120mm cannon riffled barrel (32 round capacity) shooting a variety of different ammunition and LAHAT anti-tank missile is fired through the barrel . Weapons including sub-machine gun and coaxial 7.62 mm machine gun 12.7 mm air defense.
> 
> Designed entirely similar to the Arjun but the Tank-Ex has a characteristic inherited from the T-72, that it uses equipment similar to automated loader used on T-72. Fire control system of the Tank-Ex similar on Arjun.
> 
> Tank-Ex equipped 1000 horsepower diesel engines, with speed over 60km / h and 480km range. In the case of main engines shut down, Tank-Ex has the engine side.
> 
> Due to the delay so far only 12 Arjun prototypes and 32 Arjun tanks were produced . A very little amount. Meanwhile, Tank-Ex/MBT-Ex six months after undergoing successful experiment but the Indian army has denied it (At least two prototypes have been produced).
> 
> Perhaps, India will select the T-90 production from Russia bought the rights to the name is Arjun MK.2 India. Model T-90 tanks completely remarkable increase compared with the current staffing in the Indian Army.


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## flanker143

> Originally Posted by flanker143
> ONE REASON ..............
> 
> THEY GOT RUSSIAN MONEY STUFFED IN THEIR POCKETS..........!!!!!!!
> Yes, Open Our Pocket and You would see Blood falling from it, A blood which has been shed for Citizens who were not worth for it......



i am not saying the whole army is corrupt , i am saying that some bigplayers are !!!!!



> You are judjing Your Army based on just a news?? Why not judge it by going there, Are You daring Enough to do that My son?? There Is corruption, But Dont do Propaganda based on that....



i would JUST LOVE to join any armed forces of my country but i cannot bcoz of my *crappy eyes that cannot see in night !!!* 

i wanted to join the IAF since i was a kid but i simply cannot !!!!!! 



> Obviously, T-90 has been ordered on a larger scale,And what makes You thinks that Ordering Arjun More than T-90 is a wise decision?



well when one buys a tank with better fire power , mobility , armour .............

then it is supposed to be a wise decision !!!

and i never said to buy more arjun over t 90 ... i want a cut over t 90 import 

and then buy more arjun mk2 when it is ready (and it would certainly be better than mk1)



> Who said we are not buying Arjun? we have limited the order as DRDO is Working on a futuristic tank based on Arjun, So what makes You think we would waste more money on Arjun?



sir i am fully aware that how many arjuns are being bought , but sir i want to ask when there was a day when arjun mk2 was not proposed and still IA had ordered only 124 tanks .... arjun was the same as it was at that time as it is now ! then why so less orders at that time....

what made drdo develop an even advanced tank (arjun mk2 )...... when arjun was still better than t 90 ...... because army was not happy or should i say those 'bigplayers' were not happy with such development ...... and they unnecessarily pointed out defects overtime resulting in even more delays !!!!!

why drdo had to place a black box like device in arjun during trials........ ????

sir with due respect i want to say that presence of corruption should be denied , even if it is in the army ..... i have deep respect for soldiers who protect us from any danger be it internal or external ....... BUT I HATE THOSE WHO HAVE GOT THE GUTS TO PLAY WITH MY NATIONS SECURITY !!!

these handful of scumbags are more dangerous than any other enemy!!!



> Crappy T-90??? Let me Know how??? Please care to answer it.



my reaction is due to media glare on t 90's performace that itself army has pointed out !!



> It deserves our Partiality thats why, it fits Our need, see Indian army can go for more powerful tanks if needed Like Leopard, We dint because It jsut dosent suit us, We dont want the best tank in the world, why dont You understand that we need a tanks which suits our Role..



one of the worlds strongest army doesnt want more powerful tanks , i didn't get that one !!!!!

what kind of role are we discussing here plz tell sir !!



> Yes, Open Our Pocket and You would see Blood falling from it, A blood which has been shed for Citizens who were not worth for it......



sir i am not pointing my finger at the gud guys , its for the bad ones... plzz do not accuse me of a crime i didn't commit !!!



> A blood which has been shed for Citizens who were not worth for it......



u r right sir......becoz when we see out of defence forces we see more corrupt people [B ALOT more !!!!!![/B]

plz forgive me for any harsh words or foul language used ....


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## saurabh

Does the driver always has his head sticking outside or is it just in trials?


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## gogbot

saurabh said:


> Does the driver always has his head sticking outside or is it just in trials?



You can do that in most any tank, 
Northing abnormal about sticking you head out to get a better view.

and no You don't have to have you head out all the time.

Think about it , why make Kachan armour , panaronic view sights and then we just forgot to give the driver proper protection. 

I can get bet a million bucks you , would not have asked such a silly question if it were an American tank in that picture.


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## IndianArmy

@ Flanker, Iam no one to Advise You, You yourself are good enough to Doubt Your army, I as an Army man am Not grown Enough or Wise Enough as You....

You may continue to think about Your army, But we never will take back our promise Of protecting You.. Even the most corrupted army man will not place bet upon your security, dont worry....

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## saurabh

gogbot said:


> You can do that in most any tank,
> Northing abnormal about sticking you head out to get a better view.
> 
> and no You don't have to have you head out all the time.
> 
> Think about it , why make Kachan armour , panaronic view sights and then we just forgot to give the driver proper protection.
> 
> I can get bet a million bucks you , would not have asked such a silly question if it were an American tank in that picture.



Chill, I am not a critic of arjun!
I just asked, cause it looks like driver is in siting position while his head is out. So if he wants to get his head in, head would have to go down by atleast 1 ft. That means either the chair is hydrolic, can be lifted up down, or he would have to bent, or may be he is standing and would sit. Also, the cover over his head, cannot be much thick, and thus strong. So I just want to know whats the inside like, how would the driver seat in wartime?

And if other tanks with similar configurations are there, my question applies to all.

And also sorry, cause my mistake, I didn't put what exactly I wanted!


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## flanker143

are there any plans to integrate an active protection system on arjun mbt....

senior members plz tell .....


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> are there any plans to integrate an active protection system on arjun mbt....
> 
> senior members plz tell .....



DRDO is developing Active protection System for Arjun MBT and for Other military Vehicles , 

DRDO Active protection System Package Includes the following

1.Multi role radar to continuously scan the entire protected sector. 

2. A highly directional, super quick action defensive ammunition to engage and destroy the attacking missiles and grenade;

3. Control equipment built around a dedicated computer for automatic control of the operation of the radar and system as whole, as well as for monitoring the service ability of the system and its components. 

4. The commanders control panel, the command conversion unit for the engagement sequence, Mounts for ammunition arranged all round the tanks turret to ensure perimeter protection. 

*The critical technologies involved that requires research are:*

i) Miniaturized MMW radar

ii) Sensor Fusion

iii) * Quick Reaction Kill*

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## flanker143

> DRDO is developing Active protection System for Arjun MBT and for Other military Vehicles ,
> 
> DRDO Active protection System Package Includes the following
> 
> 1.Multi role radar to continuously scan the entire protected sector.
> 
> 2. A highly directional, super quick action defensive ammunition to engage and destroy the attacking missiles and grenade;
> 
> 3. Control equipment built around a dedicated computer for automatic control of the operation of the radar and system as whole, as well as for monitoring the service ability of the system and its components.
> 
> 4. The commanders control panel, the command conversion unit for the engagement sequence, Mounts for ammunition arranged all round the tanks turret to ensure perimeter protection.
> 
> The critical technologies involved that requires research are:
> 
> i) Miniaturized MMW radar
> 
> ii) Sensor Fusion
> 
> iii) Quick Reaction Kill




thats what i call some real tech development !!!

plzz give a link too !!


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## IndianArmy

flanker143 said:


> thats what i call some real tech development !!!
> 
> plzz give a link too !!



This was seen on Directorate of Extramural Research & Intellectual Property Rights DRDO webpage.


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## KEETARP

Sir , 
Really great posts and information on last two pages .


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## anathema

IndianArmy said:


> DRDO is developing Active protection System for Arjun MBT and for Other military Vehicles ,
> 
> DRDO Active protection System Package Includes the following
> 
> 1.Multi role radar to continuously scan the entire protected sector.
> 
> 2. A highly directional, super quick action defensive ammunition to engage and destroy the attacking missiles and grenade;
> 
> 3. Control equipment built around a dedicated computer for automatic control of the operation of the radar and system as whole, as well as for monitoring the service ability of the system and its components.
> 
> 4. The commanders control panel, the command conversion unit for the engagement sequence, Mounts for ammunition arranged all round the tanks turret to ensure perimeter protection.
> 
> *The critical technologies involved that requires research are:*
> 
> i) Miniaturized MMW radar
> 
> ii) Sensor Fusion
> 
> iii) * Quick Reaction Kill*




This sounds exactly like Israeli TROPHY....are we collabrating with Israelis on this ? US i believe is interested in TROPHY. ???


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## anathema

IndianArmy said:


> You want me to comment on such news???



Not to doubt your qualification or claims....but the author of the article was himself an Indian Army Col (mechanised forces too , if i am not mistaken)...so doubting the authencity of the article written by Army man is a bit concerning.... Ajai has been known to write precise and real wordly articles....

No ones questioning T 90 ....but everyones wondering as to what is prompting IA to go in for Huge number for T90 and less number for Arjun.... As for MK2 , if IA is all interested in MK2 then they would have bore the R&D costs and would have shared the expenses.....Also an advanced order of good amount of tanks would have been a real morale booster -- after all there has been excessive criticism for Arjun (well deserved) , so why not some good amount of orders now that the Tank indeed is doing good !!!

This is where i love our IN guys......they are a touch above the rest.... InAF is also getting around these days with LCA.


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## Marxist

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence


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## IndianArmy

anathema said:


> This sounds exactly like Israeli TROPHY....are we collabrating with Israelis on this ? US i believe is interested in TROPHY. ???



No we are not , DRDO is taking up the task by itself...


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## xMustiiej70

I got 1 question.
Why dont India uses russian or western hi-techs?
Like.. make an agreements like.. where india gets the technology.. then i mean 100&#37; of it.
and then out of that 100% tank technology they can make better ones.
instead of making these things..


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## flanker143

> I got 1 question.
> Why dont India uses russian or western hi-techs?
> Like.. make an agreements like.. where india gets the technology.. then i mean 100&#37; of it.
> and then out of that 100% tank technology they can make better ones.
> instead of making these things..



there's something called 'self reliance' my friend !! 

u cant just always rely on someone else to give u hi-tech stuff !!!!

itzz better if you it of ur own .. 

so that u dont have to send RFPs 'request for proposals' etc etc... round the globe to fulfill ur each and every requirement !!!

And India has realized this requirement !!!!


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## xMustiiej70

flanker143 said:


> there's something called 'self reliance' my friend !!
> 
> u cant just always rely on someone else to give u hi-tech stuff !!!!
> 
> itzz better if you it of ur own ..
> 
> so that u dont have to send RFPs 'request for proposals' etc etc... round the globe to fulfill ur each and every requirement !!!
> 
> And India has realized this requirement !!!!



Why not do it both?
or why has Turkey succeeded then?
and when happens if you face full scale war?
that will cost alot of lives.


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## sab

Turkey has succeeded in what????????


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## Super Falcon

Well Arjun even indian army got sick of it plz it is a failed project thats why india bought huge numbers in T 90 tank


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## shrivatsa

Super Falcon said:


> Well Arjun even indian army got sick of it plz it is a failed project thats why india bought huge numbers in T 90 tank



army finally came to an understanding that the crappy arjun is more then enough to take care high tech al-khalid thats why they are inducting them now

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## flanker143

> Well Arjun even indian army got sick of it plz it is a failed project thats why india bought huge numbers in T 90 tank



when we have a better and an even advanced version of arjun ie.......its mk2 tank coming ......

then why pour the money on arjun and not on arjun mk2 ........ ask urself 

and plzz use some common sense before writing ur posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## IndianArmy

Super Falcon said:


> Well Arjun even indian army got sick of it plz it is a failed project thats why india bought huge numbers in T 90 tank



If its Not a pest in your food, why bother buddy... Why is there Immense frustration to prove You are right...


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## ace slasher

can you please tell me the current status of arjun?
last i heard that the integration of the engine and other main components had failed?
dont mean to offend anyone?


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## jbond197

ace slasher said:


> can you please tell me the current status of arjun?
> last i heard that the integration of the engine and other main components had failed?
> dont mean to offend anyone?



care to post your source... If rupeenews then don't bother...


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## Choppers

*DRDO working on more advanced version of Arjun MBT: Saraswat - India - The Times of India*



> NEW DELHI: After receiving orders for 124 more Arjun main battle tanks, the DRDO has decided to supply an advanced version of the weapon system to meet the requirements of the Army.
> 
> "We will have the modifications (on Arjuns) that the Army is looking for," Defence Research and Development Organisation chief V K Saraswat said here on Thursday.
> 
> He was asked if the DRDO had any plans of delivering a more advanced version of Arjun to the Army as part of the next order. The DRDO chief was talking to reporters on the sidelines of a function to mark the golden jubilee of the Institute of Nuclear Medicine and Allied Sciences (INMAS).
> 
> Saraswat said that the DRDO had already started working on the mark II version of the tank, which will incorporate a number of modifications that have been sought by the Army.
> 
> "We have to make certain modifications in the tank, which we call the Arjun mark II version. Development process on mark II is already in progress and our scientists and the Army are working together," Saraswat said.
> 
> The DRDO chief said the decision by the Army to place orders for 124 more Arjuns will ensure that the assembly line of the tanks is "engaged".
> 
> Army has till date placed orders for 248 Arjun tanks of which 124 have already been delivered to it. The orders for additional 124 tanks was placed after the comparative trials in March and April this year.
> 
> The comparative trials between the Arjun and the Russian T-90 were carried out to decided the future of the tank in the Army, during which the indigenous tanks reportedly performed satisfactorily.
> 
> The DRDO wants the Army to place orders for at least 500 Arjuns to recover its investments before staring work on the futuristic main battle tank for the service.
> 
> Commenting on the role of INMAS during the recent Mayapuri radiation leak case here, Saraswat said, "INMAS also has the expertise of detecting nuclear radiation and we provided the fastest response to the casualties there. We were able to send our teams within four hours and we also found out the level of radiation."

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## flanker143

> The other system being developed is the ALWCS system. This consists of a laser warning system, Infra-Red (IR) jammer and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Limited of Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected in mid 2009.



i read the above in an article guys..... 

lwr, ir jammer, smoke grenade launcher.... all extremely gud ...... but what about the laser guided weapons ... can ir jammer also do that job ??? plz tell


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## Choppers

*Arjun Mark II battle tank getting ready, first trials by June 2012*​
Chennai: The prototype of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II will be ready for testing by June 2012, officials of the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVR&DE), Avadi, have said. The Arjun MBT Mark I was tested in 1984.

Officials of the CVR&DE, the nodal design and development agency for the MBT, said Mark II was not only a improved version of Mark I but also had several unique features, including greater missile firepower and better protection. By the summer of 2012, we will come out with a prototype of Arjun Mark II for tests by the Army while the complete version will be ready by 2014, CVR&DE director P Sivakumar told The Times Of India.

On July 9, the first executive board meeting was held at the CVR&DE on finalizing the configuration for the Mark II where officials of the DRDO and CVR&DE reviewed progress made by various establishments towards meeting the various requirements of the Army. Besides the CVRDE, the expertise of several allied DRDO organisations was taken for developing the Mark II.

Of the 82 improvements requested over the earlier version, the CVR&DE has so far completed 21 improvements. Some of them are: substantial increase in the missile firing capacity, provisions for night vision and for enabling the crew to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions. Many of the improvements requested are technical in nature. The Mark I could engage targets only under static conditions. However, the Army wanted this version to engage in static and moving conditions so we incorporated them, said Sivakumar.

The new version will also have a explosive reactive armoury (ERA) that will help the crew identify explosives deployed by the enemy from a distance and take precautionary measures. The 12.7mm advance air defence gun and a new builtin power unit to reduce the noise generated are among the the other features.

The present MTB with the Army is covered with nets during operations. Mark II will have a perfect camouflage. We delivered 80 of the 124 Arjun Mark I tanks and will deliver the rest before March 2011. We have got orders for another 124 tanks, Sivakumar added.

Article Window

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## kOnark

The Arjun is a fairly capable tank-though, yet to prove itself- as compared to advanced western tanks. the only disappointment is the duration, delays and cost over runs of the project. By now they shold have moved to next generation Arjun (no need to move to other mythological names  Arjun 2). I feel the weaponry and electronics would be up to the mark however not confident about armour. To make it as strong ans as light as possible requires an advanced knowledge of materials science-india's achilles heel-also as pointed by a user the armour on arjun should have been slanting..it baffles me for not being so. A slanted plate has effectively more thickness than the same plate if held up vertically, and also helps reflect the energy better..see this for your self(eg. with a notebook viewed from its edge-slant & vertical)


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## !!craft!!

self delete


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## !!craft!!

Super Falcon said:


> Well Arjun even indian army got sick of it plz it is a failed project thats why india bought huge numbers in T 90 tank



where th hell do these guys go after posting a troll seed post...never see them again...''i have heard from my sources that this has failed, project is a disaster, you are doomed'' ,when asked to provide a credible source they have bollocks.some kind of joint, may be where they go and plan for future theories...


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## faithfulguy

Arjun could be a good tank. But base on how Indian army treats and rejected the tank, it can be seen as a failure. If India with its emerging military industrial complex build its first tank and rejected by the army for a foreign model, it would be preceived as a failure no matter how good the tank is.


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## flanker143

> . The Mark I could engage targets only under static conditions. However, the Army wanted this version to engage in static and moving conditions so we incorporated them,&#8221; said Sivakumar.



@Choppers

does this mean that arjun can't engage target while on move !!!

chopper sir i cudn't get this one ...... 
plzz advice ..... thanks in advance .


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## !!craft!!

faithfulguy said:


> Arjun could be a good tank. But base on how Indian army treats and rejected the tank, it can be seen as a failure. If India with its emerging military industrial complex build its first tank and rejected by the army for a foreign model, it would be preceived as a failure no matter how good the tank is.



Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

to clarify your doubts please read this...

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST
Indias home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.


The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.
The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. As the armys tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities. With the trial report still being compiled  it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight  neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the armys senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was  124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the armys fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the armys handful of Arjuns.

The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjuns strong performance, an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.

The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjuns demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the armys 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the armys assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjuns development for decades, If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.

The Arjuns sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun  with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection  be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the armys strike corps for performing a tanks most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.


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## flaming arrow

faithfulguy said:


> Arjun could be a good tank. But base on how Indian army treats and rejected the tank, it can be seen as a failure. If India with its emerging military industrial complex build its first tank and rejected by the army for a foreign model, it would be preceived as a failure no matter how good the tank is.



*ARJUN IS A GOOD TANK*,the army is smart enough to induct the right number of tanks 248 is not that bad knowing that another order may come up...
Also the new Arjun mkII will be rolling out in 2012 tank warfare in good sense will be happening only on our western border and for that we have sufficient and good enough killer machines A.K.A T-90 & ARJUN so dont worry much 300 of these beasts and a new generation mk2 will be the tip of the arrow


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## flaming arrow

New Delhi. The Indian Army will soon place orders for 124 additional Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) to boost its firepower after the tank outperformed the Russian-built T-90 tanks in the recent grueling trials in Thar desert.




The Army had earlier contracted for 124 Arjun tanks, built by the premier military research organization Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional 124 Arjuns. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials, defence spokesperson Sitanshu Kar said.

The 60-tonne tank is built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai that has the capability of producing 50 Arjuns annually.

The decision to order more Arjun tanks comes days after the government in May 2010 decided to go for the second generation Arjun.

This add-on order could be considered as "the final verdict on a platform" that has been 36 years in the making and which has cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million). The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to the Mechanised Forces.

*After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets  both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy.*

*Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements, Kar added.*

One regiment of the Arjun tanks (comprising 45 tanks), already being inducted in the Army, were assessed against the T-90s in a month long trials conducted at Mahajan Range in Rajasthan beginning March 1.

*Sources present at the site of the trials told India Strategic the tank outgunned the T-90s by 30 percent in nearly hundred parameters compared by the user (the Army).*

Experts from mechanised forces and officials from the DRDO witnessed the comparative trials.

The DRDO had handed over 16 tanks to the Indian Army last year, completing one regiment of 45 tanks. The regiment was then subjected to conversion training and field practice.

The DRDOs demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks was being seen as a last-ditch bid to save the Arjun as some 500 tanks would need to be acquired by the army to make the project feasible.

The army, however, made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it was unhappy with the tank on various counts, particulalrly its heavy weight. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

The armys stand has been contrary to a third-party assessment by an internationally reputed tank manufacturer.

A DRDO official said: As suggested by the army, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment in a third-party audit. After the extensive evaluation, the auditor confirmed that Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and firepower characteristics suitable for Indian deserts.

They (the auditor) also gave inputs on production procedures for further enhancing the performance of Arjun tanks. DRDO will be incorporating all these inputs before the next lot of 62 tanks is handed over to army by March 2010, the official added.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 60-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistans decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001. 
..:: India Strategic ::.. Army News: Army to place order for 124 more Arjun tanks

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## Dash

flanker143 said:


> @Choppers
> 
> does this mean that arjun can't engage target while on move !!!
> 
> chopper sir i cudn't get this one ......
> plzz advice ..... thanks in advance .


Whats the use of a tank if it cant engage target on the move?. 
Yes it can engage target while on the move..


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> @Choppers
> 
> does this mean that arjun can't engage target while on move !!!
> 
> chopper sir i cudn't get this one ......
> plzz advice ..... thanks in advance .



The Arjun can target on the move.
And in fact has much better accuracy then the T-90 in this regard.

Arjun's accuracy on the move is it's strongest selling point against the T-90. Rumours of the Trials tell us the Arjun hit 5/5 targets on the move , while the T-90 only had 1/5.

Accuracy firing at a moving target while on the move is another question


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## anathema

flanker143 said:


> @Choppers
> 
> does this mean that arjun can't engage target while on move !!!
> 
> chopper sir i cudn't get this one ......
> plzz advice ..... thanks in advance .



Gentlemen -- 

I believe Flanker has asked the right question in maybe wrong way -- 

The logical scenarios -- for any Tank to engage a target would be --

a) Arjun is on move and the enemy tank is relatively stationary.

b) Arjun is on move and the enemy tank is also on the move -- both are trying to target each other.

a) is already present -- this has already been collaborated by news reports that emerged out of THAR trials. Arjun tank successfully enegaged enemy tank while on the move !

But point b) -- I believe is not. Targeting another moving vehicle while itself on the move is extremely complex -- note that in cases like this -- The tank should be able to take correctional measures .i.e take into account the speed of opposite tank and direction -- the system should be able to adjust the gun sight accordingly and should be able to do minor corrections while firing a projectile.

Am i making a hill out this issue ? I think not -- I think this is what DRDO will be striving to achieve in MK2.


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## flanker143

@anathema

i had made alittle mistake in my ques .... thanks for correcting me ........

your scenario (b) was the one i was talking of about ......and my ques about it still remains....


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## flaming arrow

Old tanks like T-72 and T-55 .have to stop aim and then fire if they want killier shot on the enemy tank..now new generation tanks today dont follow this policy of SHOOT AND SCOOT,Arjun during the firing trials had shocked the T-90 CREW with its new hardned systems onboard which were hitting everything with precision which came its way


> T*he Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.*
> 
> &#8220;T*he Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen&#8221;, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. &#8220;As the army&#8217;s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.&#8221;[/COLOR]* With the trial report still being compiled &#8212; it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight &#8212; neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment


Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
t*he systems on board Arjun are one of the best* in the world
Arjun MBT features an &#8220;Auto Tracker.&#8221; The auto tracker is a system based on image processing. As the gunner sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis takes place. When the target moves, the Arjun Tank gun and the sight gets aligned with the target and move automatically keeping the target in focus. This is particularly good in cross country, when target is moving, Arjun Tank might go through bumps or twists or turns for maneuvering, but the auto tracker will not loose the sight of the target. In normal cases with T-55 and T-72, when the tanks try to negotiate an undulation or try a defensive move, the tank commander cupola is moving to acquire the target; the guns go off target. There is a crew disorientation that takes place in such conditions and the crew ends up pointing target at opposite direction. T-90S too has similar issues but is much better than the T-72 in this case. Another aspect is, the Arjun MBT turret is a heavy mass of approximately 16- 20 tons and gun mass is about approximately 2 tons. To stabilize the turret and gun is a difficult task. Currently Arjun Tank uses something called &#8220;director mode&#8221; .The top mirror of the gunner sight of Arjun Tank is independently stabilized. A computer evaluates the elevation of both top mirror and the gun as well as the angle of the turret. There is a continuous feeding of these parameters into the computer; the computer gives electronic instructions to the gun control system. Hence the Arjun Tank gunner sight is in the middle of the target even in the cross country environment. If momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit does not open and the gunner is not able to fire. Whether Arjun MBT is static, target is static or Arjun MBT is static, target is moving or Arjun MBT is moving, target is static or both Arjun MBT and target are moving; The Arjun Tank firing accuracy remains more or less the same, and achieves a very high level of accuracy.
The Lahat missile&#8217;s laser designator module is integrated into fire control computer.

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## anathema

^^ If this is indeed true -- then i have no clue what the article on MK2 is talking about !


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## flaming arrow

anathema said:


> ^^ If this is indeed true -- then i have no clue what the article on MK2 is talking about !



Non actually will have a clue on wht actually goes inside the ARJUN.. Indians and Isrealis are working together on almost every defence project..a lot of stuff inside the T-90 has been changed to the best present in the world...the Arjun mkII will be a class and the most potent machine which will rain havoc on enemy armour formation


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## anathema

flaming arrow said:


> t*he systems on board Arjun are one of the best* in the world
> Arjun MBT features an Auto Tracker. The auto tracker is a system based on image processing. As the gunner sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis takes place. When the target moves, the Arjun Tank gun and the sight gets aligned with the target and move automatically keeping the target in focus. This is particularly good in cross country, when target is moving, Arjun Tank might go through bumps or twists or turns for maneuvering, but the auto tracker will not loose the sight of the target. In normal cases with T-55 and T-72, when the tanks try to negotiate an undulation or try a defensive move, the tank commander cupola is moving to acquire the target; the guns go off target. There is a crew disorientation that takes place in such conditions and the crew ends up pointing target at opposite direction. T-90S too has similar issues but is much better than the T-72 in this case. Another aspect is, the Arjun MBT turret is a heavy mass of approximately 16- 20 tons and gun mass is about approximately 2 tons. To stabilize the turret and gun is a difficult task. Currently Arjun Tank uses something called director mode .The top mirror of the gunner sight of Arjun Tank is independently stabilized. A computer evaluates the elevation of both top mirror and the gun as well as the angle of the turret. There is a continuous feeding of these parameters into the computer; the computer gives electronic instructions to the gun control system. Hence the Arjun Tank gunner sight is in the middle of the target even in the cross country environment. If momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit does not open and the gunner is not able to fire. Whether Arjun MBT is static, target is static or Arjun MBT is static, target is moving or Arjun MBT is moving, target is static or both Arjun MBT and target are moving; The Arjun Tank firing accuracy remains more or less the same, and achieves a very high level of accuracy.
> The Lahat missiles laser designator module is integrated into fire control computer.



^^ Flaming where did you get this info from ? This is not present in the article ? Can you please give me the source ?


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## SpArK

anathema said:


> ^^ Flaming where did you get this info from ? This is not present in the article ? Can you please give me the source ?



Arjun Mk2 &#8211; The Futuristic MBT | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

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## anathema

BENNY said:


> Arjun Mk2  The Futuristic MBT | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion



Aha !! Thanks Benny !

This is precisely what i was talking about.

This technology is not present in current version -- so my post was indeed correct -- Flanker here is your answer.

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## canadakz

well, being a 60 tonne tank, its engine only has 1200 hp which is extremely low compared to other heavy tanks (leo 2, type-90, type-99, M1A2,) which all have a 1500hp engine.


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## flanker143

i loved the "auto tracker" part sadly its not in mk1 version.......



> well, being a 60 tonne tank, its engine only has 1200 hp which is extremely low compared to other heavy tanks (leo 2, type-90, type-99, M1A2,) which all have a 1500hp engine.



as far as i know it currently has a 1400 hp engine and not a 1200 hp one.....


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## flaming arrow

canadakz said:


> well, being a 60 tonne tank, its engine only has 1200 hp which is extremely low compared to other heavy tanks (leo 2, type-90, type-99, M1A2,) which all have a 1500hp engine.



You shouldhave atleast searched before writting that arjun use MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel
which is 1,400 hp


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## flaming arrow

flanker143 said:


> i loved the "auto tracker" part sadly its not in mk1 version.......
> 
> 
> 
> as far as i know it currently has a 1400 hp engine and not a 1200 hp one.....



any modification which goes into making of mkII will be integrated with mkI one too..so dnt worry..there is a lot more then what meets the eye my dear frnd dnt feel sad


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## flanker143

> any modification which goes into making of mkII will be integrated with mkI one too..so dnt worry..there is a lot more then what meets the eye my dear frnd dnt feel sad



i got some more ques ..... will there be any outer modification to arjun ?
and why didn't drdo use a slanted kanchan armour on arjun ?


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## canadakz

flaming arrow said:


> You shouldhave atleast searched before writting that arjun use MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel
> which is 1,400 hp



The arjun prototype does use a 1200hp engine but I guess they upgraded it which is a good choice but why couldn't you buy the 1500hp engine from MTU, as far as I know it, even China (under arms embargo) got it.


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## flaming arrow

canadakz said:


> The arjun prototype does use a 1200hp engine but I guess they upgraded it which is a good choice but why couldn't you buy the 1500hp engine from MTU, as far as I know it, even China (under arms embargo) got it.



my dear friend that prototype is and old thing..initially arjun was supposed to be somewhere near a 50 tonn tank but never mind...we are making a new 1500hp engine which will see on the mkII version rolling out in early 2012


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## flaming arrow

flanker143 said:


> i got some more ques ..... will there be any outer modification to arjun ?
> and why didn't drdo use a slanted kanchan armour on arjun ?



Arjun's design was based on the german leopard tank...that was long back..we all know how much turmoil had this project caused in the past beacuse of its delays which were actually learning curvatures..
now beacuse the design was modular from the vary beggining new things interms of electronics,new self diagonostic system and many more were incoporated..except the turret design because any modification on that front would have caused further delays....there is a very good chance that MKII version will have slope armour on it..DRDO showed it on TANK EX...isnt it
DRDO is now putting the new ERA tiles on the upgraded T-72 tanks in slant armour fashion only...good news that the already heavy kanchan armour will be given additional NERA TILES developed by DRDO for ARJUN MKII WHICH WILL COME WITH 1500 HP ENGINE


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## flanker143

> there is a very good chance that MKII version will have slope armour on it..



wud luv to see slanted armour on mk2 ...... 



> DRDO showed it on TANK EX...isnt it



no i dont think so ..... u hav any pics ??


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## sancho

flaming arrow said:


> Arjun's design was based on the german leopard tank...that was long back..we all know how much turmoil had this project caused in the past beacuse of its delays which were actually learning curvatures..
> now beacuse the design was modular from the vary beggining new things interms of electronics,new self diagonostic system and many more were incoporated..except the turret design because any modification on that front would have caused further delays....there is a very good chance that MKII version will have slope armour on it..DRDO showed it on TANK EX...isnt it
> DRDO is now putting the new ERA tiles on the upgraded T-72 tanks in slant armour fashion only...good news that the already heavy kanchan armour will be given additional NERA TILES developed by DRDO for ARJUN MKII WHICH WILL COME WITH 1500 HP ENGINE



Actually Tank EX has the same Arjun MK1 turret on a T72 chassis, there are no redesigns of the turret. 

*Arjun:*













*Tank Ex:*


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## flaming arrow

[/URL][/IMG]
Yes its a hybrid between arjun turret and t-72 chassis.. have a look at this pic..my bad i really dint look at it closely


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## flanker143

@sancho

are there any plans to use slanted kanchan armour on mk2 ?? thanks in advance ??

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

@sancho

are there any plans to use slanted kanchan armour on mk2 ?? thanks in advance ??


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## rajgoynar

*DRDO's Combat Vehicle Development Unit Is*


CHENNAI: The Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVR&DE) is working overtime to supply a range of frontline hardware to the Army.

The unit at Avadi, on the outskirts of Chennai, tasked with the design, development and testing of tracked combat vehicles and specialised tracked vehicles, has several projects in hand. Apart from the focus on Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II, it is also designing and developing the state-of-art futuristic main battle tank (FMBT), which is expected to cater to the requirements of the Army. "The Army expects the FMBT to be ready by 2020," CVR&DE director P Sivakumar told TOI recently. The unit is one of the 52 research units of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DR&DO) in the country and the only one in Tamil Nadu.

Mobile platforms for missiles is another arena where its expertise is sought. For nearly a decade, it has supplied these platforms for missiles, including Akash, Prithivi and Trishul, and is presently developing several more.

Casualties are inevitable in battle and the CVR&DE's armoured ambulances come in handy. Equipped with airconditioning and heating facilities, it is designed for speedy evacuation of casualties and has excellent mobility for operation in various terrain. Another piece of equipment is the Carrier Command Post Tracked BMP-II (CCPT), designed to function as a self-propelled (SP) artillery command post. It affords nuclear, biological and chemical protection and protection against small arms. "We recently got an order for 50 CCPTs, each costing around Rs 3-4 crore," Sivakumar added.



The CVR&DE's dream project, at the conception stage, is the Unmanned Track Vehicle (UTV) through the tele-operated method the improved version is the automatic method. It is based on a wheeled vehicle platform comprising a pilot system unit and two units for surveillance. The UTVs, mainly for surveillance and detection of mines, include remote operations on wirless LAN (land area network), vision systems and robotic manipulator. A miniature model with a range of five km has been developed and will be operated with a GIS-based auto vehicle tracking system.



Bifurcated from the Ahmednagar-based Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (VR&DE) and formed as an independent laboratory in 1976, the CVR&DE has come a long way. Over the years, it has not only catered to the Army's needs but also supplied to the other services, especially the air force. It has designed aircraft subsystems, mainly related to the engine and hydraulics. For the Light Combat Aircraft (LAC), it has developed 10 prototypes of the secondary gear boxes and is conducting user trials. It expects orders for production soon.



The unit with a present strength of 1,300 employees, including 290 scientists, is credited with designing and developing some of the best military hardware in the world. Among them are the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark I and Mark II, Ex-Tank (Experimental tank) and Combat Improved (CI) Ajeya Mark I, indigenously-developed T-72 tank with an advanced fire control system and high mobility. It is currently the mainstay of the armoured corps.



DRDO's Combat Vehicle Development Unit Is - Chennai - City - The Times of India


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## Desi Sher

A state-of-the art Simulator Training Centre (STC) for Arjun Main Battle Tank to train the gunner, commander and driver was inaugurated by Lt.Gen. Dalip Bhardwaj, PVSM, VSM, Director-General, Mechanised Forces, Army Headquarters at the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) on Friday.

The simulator consists of a turret simulator and driving simulator. While the turret simulator helps the gunner and commander to practise target engagement, tracking, laying and firing, the driving simulator aids the driver to practise driving related exercises under dawn, dusk, fog, rain and poor visibility conditions with obstacles and undulated terrain.

S. Sundaresh, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Controller, R and D (ACE), R. Shankar, DCV and E, DRDO Headquarters, and P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE, and V.N. Swamiraj, Additional Director (Simulator), were present, according to a press release.


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## IndianTiger

Ajun MK1 perforamed well agains T90 in trials any one please tell me about Arjun MBT mk 2 specification.


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## sudhir007

Arjun Tanks

The Indian Army is placing an order for 124 Arjun Tanks Mark &#8211; II in addition to the equal number of Mark &#8211; I ordered earlier. Tank T-90, Tank T-72, and Arjun tanks are all main battle tanks of the Indian Army.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri BP Tarai and Shri Prabodh Panda in Lok Sabha today.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 AM ----------

DRDO to develop army&#8217;s next-generation tank

With most of our armour unfit to fight at night, the project is crucial.

In March this year, during trials in the Rajasthan desert, the Defence R&D Organisation&#8217;s Arjun tank conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90, the army&#8217;s showpiece. Buoyed by that success and by the army&#8217;s consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop India&#8217;s next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).

While costs are still being evaluated, the projections are mind-boggling. The development cost alone could be Rs 5,000 crore. Then, the replacement cost of the Indian Army&#8217;s 4,000 tanks &#8212; at a conservative Rs 25 crore per FMBT &#8212; adds to Rs 1,00,000 crore. The bulk of this would flow, over years of production, to Tier-I and Tier-II suppliers from small and medium industries.

For the first time, the DRDO has outlined the FMBT project&#8217;s contours. Talking exclusively to Business Standard, DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat, revealed, &#8220;While the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) has been handed over to private industry, the DRDO will develop the FMBT. We need about seven-eight years from the time the project is formally sanctioned. The army and the DRDO have already identified the major features of the FMBT, which are quite different from the Arjun. While the Arjun is a 60-tonne tank, the FMBT will be lighter&#8230; about 50 tonnes. It will be a highly mobile tank.&#8221;

*Vital project*
The FMBT project, says the military, is crucial for India&#8217;s future battle readiness. As army chief, General Deepak Kapoor pronounced 80 per cent of India&#8217;s tank fleet unfit to fight at night, which is when most tank battles take place. The bulk of our fleet, some 2,400 obsolescent Russian T-72s, are being shoddily patched up (see Business Standard, Feb 3, &#8216;Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks&#8217. More modern T-90 tanks were procured from Russia in 2001, shorn of crucial systems to reduce prices, after parliamentary dissent threatened to derail the contract (Business Standard, Feb 4, &#8216;Piercing the army&#8217;s armour of deception&#8217. Only now, after nine years of stonewalling, has Russia transferred the technology needed to build the T-90 in India.

Urgently in need of capable tanks, the army has worked with DRDO to finalise a broad range of capabilities for the FMBT. These have been formalised in a document called the Preliminary Specifications Qualitative Requirement (PSQR). The detailed specifications of the FMBT, once finalised, will be listed in General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR).

Amongst the capabilities being finalised for the GSQR are: active armour, which will shoot down enemy anti-tank projectiles before they strike the FMBT; extreme mobility, which makes the FMBT much harder to hit; the capability to operate in a nuclear-contaminated battlefield without exposing the crew to radiation; and the networked flow of information to the FMBT, providing full situational awareness to the crew, even when &#8220;buttoned down&#8221; inside the tank.

Also being finalised is the FMBT armament, a key attribute that determines a tank&#8217;s battlefield influence. The Arjun already has a heavy 120mm &#8216;main gun&#8217;, and two small-calibre machine guns; the recently ordered batch of 124 Arjuns will also fire anti-tank missiles through their main gun. The army wants all of those for the FMBT, with ranges enhanced through technological improvements.

However, the DRDO chief ruled out an electromagnetic gun, the next generation in high-velocity guns towards which armament technology aspires. &#8220;The Future MBT is not so far in the future,&#8221; Saraswat quipped.

*FICV, too*
With the FMBT project squarely on its agenda, the DRDO also envisages a major role in developing the FICV. Says the DRDO chief, &#8220;The FICV is not just a conventional armoured vehicle for transporting soldiers. It involves advanced technologies and multidisciplinary integration, which private industry has never done. Only the DRDO and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) have that experience. DRDO teams are already thinking about the technologies that should go into the FICV. But this is only to support private industry in making the FICV project a success.&#8221;

While private industry weighs its options about where to manufacture the FICV, the DRDO has already chosen the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi &#8212;- the OFB facility that builds the Arjun &#8212;- as the FMBT production line.

&#8220;It will definitely be produced in HVF. I see no way that we can go away from HVF,&#8221; says Saraswat. &#8220;The HVF will work with us from the preliminary design of the FMBT, so that we can go from prototype to mass production without any hiccups.&#8221;


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## flanker143

so arjun mk2 is officially killed now.... no mass productions for it just like arjun mk1


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## Archie

There is no arjun Mk2 , army has ordered 124 additional arjuns
taking the total order to 248
FMBT is supposed to be a Light and agile tank Weighing under 50 Tons ,while Arjun Weighs 60 Tons 
FMBT WILL REPLACE SOME 2000 T-72 TANKS ,which are currently undergoing upgrade and will begin retiring in 2020
Thanks to experiencve gained in building Arjun tank i dont think that it would take more than 7-8 yrs for building FMBT which should be ready by 2020 to replace T-72


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## flanker143

> There is no arjun Mk2 , army has ordered 124 additional arjuns



are you on drugs ????????!!!!!!!!!!!

or i am in a dream ??


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## Archie

flanker143 said:


> are you on drugs ????????!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> or i am in a dream ??



*In March this year, during trials in the Rajasthan desert, the Defence R&D Organisations Arjun tank conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90, the armys showpiece. Buoyed by that success and by the armys consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop Indias next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).*

This contract was made so as to keep the assembly line of Arjun open for a few more years , otherwise it would have closed in 2011 , considering the fact that 100 Arjun Tanks have been delivered till date.
This additional order will enable DRDO to keep the Tank factory open till 2014
DRDO infact wanted army to purchase 350 more Arjun MBT however army declined the offer and decided to purchase 124 more Arjuns
However i can foresee purchase of a 3rd lot of 124 Arjun MBT in 2013 so as to keep the Production line open till the induction of FMBT in 2018 , and also the fact that if there is a delay in FMBT ,then army will be short of 100 tanks in 2020
T-90 MBT 1657
T-72 MBT 2000
Arjun MBT 0248
TOTAL 3905
Thats a shortage of 100 tanks against a sanctioned 4000 MBT


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## black flame

but it is said it is 4000 tanks so this tank is going to replace all the russian t90's and t72's here is the link in which it states that so it is going to start replacing them may be in 2016-17 may be 

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## Donatello

Archie said:


> *In March this year, during trials in the Rajasthan desert, the Defence R&D Organisations Arjun tank conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90, the armys showpiece. Buoyed by that success and by the armys consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop Indias next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).*
> 
> This contract was made so as to keep the assembly line of Arjun open for a few more years , otherwise it would have closed in 2011 , considering the fact that 100 Arjun Tanks have been delivered till date.
> This additional order will enable DRDO to keep the Tank factory open till 2014
> DRDO infact wanted army to purchase 350 more Arjun MBT however army declined the offer and decided to purchase 124 more Arjuns
> However i can foresee purchase of a 3rd lot of 124 Arjun MBT in 2013 so as to keep the Production line open till the induction of FMBT in 2018 , and also the fact that if there is a delay in FMBT ,then army will be short of 100 tanks in 2020
> T-90 MBT 1657
> T-72 MBT 2000
> Arjun MBT 0248
> TOTAL 3905
> Thats a shortage of 100 tanks against a sanctioned 4000 MBT






Arjun is still not fully inducted in the Army and the are not going to induct in large numbers anyway, and you are talking about the next tank?


I mean, if it was some industry with history of actually developing a tank, i would agree, but looking at DRDO's history of Arjun, lets not say the new tank if ever will be ready by 2016.


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## shrivatsa

Guys dont get confused, fmbt is a new project.Arjun mk2 is an ongoing project.

Defence News: Generation 2.0: Arjun Mk-2

Path for the development of the Second generation of Arjun Mk-2 has been cleared recently by the Ministry of Defence and funding allocated , while the Army has ordered more 124 Arjun Mk-1 to keep the production line in Avadi busy till the Arjun Mk-2 will start rolling out from 2013-14 onwards . DRDO rather than starting all over again the Arjun MK-2 will have the same design of Arjun MK-1, but major changes are planned for the new generation variant of Arjun Tank to keep up with the new technological changes which are been incorporated in the MBT&#8217;s world over .
Arjun MK-2 will have Battle Field Management System (BFMS) which will enable the tank to get feed from UAV&#8216;s and Helicopters, which then enable the Arjun mk-2 tank crew much aware of their surroundings and better understanding of the battle zone, this will lead to improvement in coordinating with other Friendly tanks in the zone and also avoid Friendly kills, it will also give information regarding enemy tank movement along with their troops and help navigate terrain in the battle zone.
Self-diagnostic system (SDS) will also be added to Arjun Mk-2 which is like a health monitoring system. it will not only tell the tank crew if it is having any problem but also point out the trouble area , it is also important when Tank has taken multiple hits from different position and from different ammunition after a self-diagnose Tank crew will know exact damage inflicted on the Tank .
Arjun Mk-2 will get a new efficient 1500bhp engine which has been in development by DRDO in India its self, they are reports that a Indian Private industry is also working with DRDO on the Engine development, currently Arjun MK-1 is powered by German supplied 1400bhp engine which is quite old in design and technical parameters but still a powerful and respected engine in the world.
NERA (non-explosive reactive armor) will be added to Arjun Mk-2 this will give the tank additional protection against anti-tank munitions, unlike ERA, NERA will enable tank to take multiple hits anti-tank munitions, but also increase the weight of Arjun MK-2 to 60 tons from its current weight (Arjun MK-1) of 58 tons.
It is much likely that Arjun Mk-2 will also spot Air-conditioning system for the crew, which will be powered from an APU which will draw its power from the Main engine of the Tank; this will enable the tank crew to operate in higher temperature of desert heat without any discomfort to the tank crew, Arjun MK-1 already has hardened electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer without requiring any Air-conditioning system.
More changes will take place in Arjun Mk-2, above mentioned are mostly likely changes which will take place in the new variant.

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## flanker143

> Arjun is still not fully inducted in the Army and the are not going to induct in large numbers anyway, and you are talking about the next tank?



paaji tussi fikkar na karo.... Indian army will order more arjuns than Pakistan army has ordered al-khalids ..... bas thora wait kar lo , any ways how many alkhalids have been inducted in PA (600 were to be procured) ?


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## RPK

http://logisticsweek.com/events/2010/08/indian-army-to-acquire-124-advanced-arjun-tanks/

The Indian Army is to procure 124 Arjun mkII tanks, the advanced version of the main battle tank (MBT), from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), according to Defence Minister AK Antony.

The Arjun MBT, which will be designed by DRDO with modifications as required by the army, which is looking to add a futuristic main battle tanks (FMBT) to its armoury
*The FMBT will be equipped with high-power lasers for targeting enemy rockets, aircraft and electro-optical sensors as per the army&#8217;s requirement.*

The proposed procurement follows an order for additional 124 Arjun mkI MBTs, which was placed after the indigenous Arjun surpassed Russian T-90 tanks during comparative trials.

The army has placed orders for 248 Arjun mkI tanks, of which, 124 have already been delivered.

DRDO expects to fulfil orders for at least 500 Arjuns to recoup its investments before starting work on the futuristic MBT.


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## flanker143

> In March this year, during trials in the Rajasthan desert, the Defence R&D Organisations Arjun tank conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90, the armys showpiece. Buoyed by that success and by the armys consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop Indias next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).





> *There is no arjun Mk2* , army has ordered 124 additional arjuns



army has ordered 124 additional arjuns ....... but they are gonna be mk2 versions

*The Indian Army is placing an order for 124 Arjun Tanks Mark  II in addition to the equal number of Mark  I ordered earlier. Tank T-90, Tank T-72, and Arjun tanks are all main battle tanks of the Indian Army. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri BP Tarai and Shri Prabodh Panda in Lok Sabha today. 

HH / RAJ*


PIB Press Release

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## IndianRobo

Does this Mean that Arjun MKII is getting into its Final Stages, and its all set to Roll Out??? You made my Day guys


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## flanker143

> Does this Mean that Arjun MKII is getting into its Final Stages, and its all set to Roll Out??? You made my Day guys



yes mk2 might be in the final stages ......... but thanks to army's new so called fmbt requirement it will be killed again ........ what i mean to say that no mass production for it ......

arny has an requirement for 4000 tanks ~~2000 t72s aren't going anywhere anytime soon , we have already ordered 1600 t 90 tanks... so that leaves a room for only 400 arjuns .....

*guys i can't this thing through my head ....... WHY ISN'T ARMY GOING IN FOR MORE ARJUNS AND SCRAPPING (1000)T 90 ORDER WHEN IT KNOWS THAT ARJUN IS MUCH BETTER TANK ???*


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## anathema

flanker143 said:


> yes mk2 might be in the final stages ......... but thanks to army's new so called fmbt requirement it will be killed again ........ what i mean to say that no mass production for it ......
> 
> arny has an requirement for 4000 tanks ~~2000 t72s aren't going anywhere anytime soon , we have already ordered 1600 t 90 tanks... so that leaves a room for only 400 arjuns .....
> 
> *guys i can't this thing through my head ....... WHY ISN'T ARMY GOING IN FOR MORE ARJUNS AND SCRAPPING (1000)T 90 ORDER WHEN IT KNOWS THAT ARJUN IS MUCH BETTER TANK ???*



Flanker -- A question to you ?

why do you think IAF didnt order 270+ MKI's from the begining only ? They could have saved lot of trouble if they had !
Answer -- It takes time and patience to fall in love with someone or make someone fall in love with you. You need to work hard for that. Su 30 slowly but surely won over IAF hearts to the point that they are now confident that this a/c can handle most of the roles in IAF.

Similarly let Arjuns get inducted -- Let the tank commanders take a drive in them -- let them experience it and feel it -- sooner or later they are bound to say, 'hey this is much better than T90' -- and then Avadi factory will suddenly find a reason to smile ! Army is just being cautious now -- they just cant afford to be seen like a DODO when they were the ones who were cursing Arjun , nitpicking and not giving enough support -- now suddenly if they suddenly order Arjun -- DRDO being the smart *** it is , would scream this on top of their voice...


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## Titanium

FMBT


Who is the foreign "partner" this time???


You know dodo does not touch anything without "foreign partner"


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## syntax_error

Titanium said:


> FMBT
> 
> 
> Who is the foreign "partner" this time???
> 
> 
> You know dodo does not touch anything without "foreign partner"




FMBT = *FUTURE* MAIN BATTLE TANK

plz dont jump to conclusion .... very high falls can cause severe bruising in the ego areas 

ps.: plz dont troll

thank

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## flanker143

anathema said:


> Flanker -- A question to you ?
> 
> why do you think IAF didnt order 270+ MKI's from the begining only ? They could have saved lot of trouble if they had !
> Answer -- It takes time and patience to fall in love with someone or make someone fall in love with you. You need to work hard for that. Su 30 slowly but surely won over IAF hearts to the point that they are now confident that this a/c can handle most of the roles in IAF.
> 
> Similarly let Arjuns get inducted -- Let the tank commanders take a drive in them -- let them experience it and feel it -- sooner or later they are bound to say, 'hey this is much better than T90' -- and then Avadi factory will suddenly find a reason to smile ! Army is just being cautious now -- they just cant afford to be seen like a DODO when they were the ones who were cursing Arjun , nitpicking and not giving enough support -- now suddenly if they suddenly order Arjun -- DRDO being the smart *** it is , would scream this on top of their voice...



I understand that anathema but i too have a point that --after t72 and t90's induction there wont be much room left for arjuns ......

May all word your words come true my friend bcoz every day i have this burning when i think that imferior foriegn tech is killing my country's superior tech....


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## IndianRobo

Titanium said:


> FMBT
> 
> 
> Who is the foreign "partner" this time???
> 
> 
> You know dodo does not touch anything without "foreign partner"



Not interested in answering question to a person who himself is ashamed of representing his country in an international forum

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## redpearl75

The delay in Arjun MBT programme was due to less interest being shown by the IA though the DRDO never let it slip away.. No matter what has happened so far, the major concern is to look out for what's going to happen.. The government might not have given a green signal to the Arjuns but for sure the package it offers is far better than the Russian and many other takns worldwide and can be compared to the best class of the MBTs around..... No one can hide the fact that this beast is worth going for it and the achievements it has under it's belt pushed the Army to go for it and they didn't have any reason left to denie it.... In near future with more powerful engines and fire control system it will rock withount any doubts... it is indeed one of the best in the Army and is far better that the T90s which the Russians claim to be the most modern tank they have ever created....


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## redpearl75

Have you guys checked the latest concept on Leo2: 






*Leopard 2A4 revolution upgrade by Rheinmetall.*





*Leopard 2A4 of the Singapore Army.*


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## redpearl75

To me LEO 2 and Arjun looks almost the same and I hope that after the full fledged induction Arjun too goes for an ultra upgradation...


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## Omega007

super tank


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## redpearl75

Guys, please if you can then go through it: The Hindu Business Line : Give Arjun a fighting chance

Eye opening facts...

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## Leonidas

MBT Arjun by DD National


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## inddef

why don't we buy top of the line tanks from Germany / US?


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## ironman

^^ Because we have Arjun..


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## flanker143

> why don't we buy top of the line tanks from Germany / US?



*BAHAR SE HI TANK LENE THE TO ARJUN KO KYA TEL JALAANE KE LIYE BANAYA HAI !!!!???*

*PLZ REHNE DO YAAR KUCH KAAM ARJUN KO BHI KARNE DO ...PEHLE HI T 90 NE ADA KABADA KAR DIA HAI !!!!!*

AND ARJUN IS TOP OF THE LINE !!!!


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## anathema

Latest documentary on Arjun...Post T90 cage match.






If anybody has the entire documentary please post it...


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## IndianArmy

Few Pictures of Arjun MBT, Enjoy

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## IndianArmy

INSIDE ARJUN MBT

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## IndianArmy

Its kanchan armour is Going to be replaced with a new One Which Is Underdevelopment in the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, The composites are going to be sandwiched between Rolled homogeneous armour, Well Kanchan Armour was speculated to be able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and was also believed to withstand APFSDS.... Let us see how the New Armour Works for the All New Arjun MK2

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## redpearl75

flanker143 said:


> *BAHAR SE HI TANK LENE THE TO ARJUN KO KYA TEL JALAANE KE LIYE BANAYA HAI !!!!???*
> 
> *PLZ REHNE DO YAAR KUCH KAAM ARJUN KO BHI KARNE DO ...PEHLE HI T 90 NE ADA KABADA KAR DIA HAI !!!!!*
> 
> AND ARJUN IS TOP OF THE LINE !!!!



I agree to you bro but the sad part is that weather you like it or not Indians always gives preference to foreign military hardware overlooking what we are capable of doing and achieving.... LCA almost died in the mid 90s but thanks to the DRDO and HAL efforts that tey proved their worth and that too because IAF didn't have any options as they are getting shrinked in terms of the fighting squanders and are having aging aircrafts like Mig21s as the backbone of the force and IAF needs immediate replacements for at least the 21s and that is why they greened LCA progress or who knows they would have strangled this shining bird as well in favor of some foreign fighter where we all know that Tejas is one of the best 4.5 Gen fighters in the Aisan region and is the most lightest fighter going to be in service still carrying more weapon load than the Russian Mig 29s that are in service with the IAF... See... What a small but lethal bird India could make and it did as it was given the chance to do so....

Same goes for Arjun as well, it's just that the warfare now-a-days is being focused on Land and Air based fights and that's why the most of the money and focus is being incurred on the Air and Naval forces procuring the said mother of all deals "MRCA Deal with 126 fighter jets" and the father of all deals "6 Submarine deal"... The blind government is so damn mind molded towards the Russians that they could not even accept that fact that Arjun is better than the T90S because the deal between Indian Army or the Govt and DRDO will be straight in INR hand to hand deal where the chances of making extra money is less for those curropted govt officials who look and thrive to make foreign involvement a must.. Whereas if its Russia or in that matter any other nation, they will have time and space in their hands to make something extra out of everything that's being bought.... We should not take what foreign governments are there to offer rather we should learn from them... 

Sweadean being a small nation is self sufficient in keeping their demand to themselves and now they have come up with the Gripen and is in such a state that they are offering us that same thing... It's just a small example.....

I just can hope for the best for Arjun as it deserves the chance....


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## IndianArmy

Arjun MBT Simulators


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## IndianArmy

Arjun MBT Simulators

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## rockstarIN

IndianArmy said:


> INSIDE ARJUN MBT



One Question..!!

I have seen in Discovery military channel that most of the modern tanks of Germany&USA have digital controlling systems. But in the above picture, all meters are analog.

T-90 too got analog meters??

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## rockstarIN

Arjun got any export chance?

Are we showing this machine off any of the shows??


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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> Arjun got any export chance?
> 
> Are we showing this machine off any of the shows??



Latin american countries had shown Interest in this tank, do not know the present status


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## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> One Question..!!
> 
> I have seen in Discovery military channel that most of the modern tanks of Germany&USA have digital controlling systems. But in the above picture, all meters are analog.
> 
> T-90 too got analog meters??



Well these Pictures are Old.... The new integrated digital fire control system installed in the Arjun Mk.1 MBT consists of a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, meteorological sensor, stabilised panoramic sight for the tank commander, stand-by (articulated) sighting telescope, GPS and an electronic gate to ensure a first round hit probability.

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## anathema

IndianArmy said:


> Well these Pictures are Old.... The new integrated digital fire control system installed in the Arjun Mk.1 MBT consists of a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, meteorological sensor, stabilised panoramic sight for the tank commander, stand-by (articulated) sighting telescope, GPS and an electronic gate to ensure a first round hit probability.



Are you refering to MK2 ? Coz i remember panoramic sight for commander was a requisite for MK2.


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## IndianArmy

anathema said:


> Are you refering to MK2 ? Coz i remember panoramic sight for commander was a requisite for MK2.



Well Its getting Fixed on all the New tanks which the Army has newly ordered and the rest Might get Upgraded to this


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## IndianArmy

A Nice Artwork of Arjun


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## rockstarIN

IndianArmy said:


> Latin american countries had shown Interest in this tank, do not know the present status



Best suited for Middle east, as we made this machine mainly to perform in desert


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## perfectmachine

Hydraulic Cylinders Manufacturers, Hydraulic Equipments Manufacturers, Hydraulic Clamping Cylinders Manufacturers, Hydraulic Press Manufacturers, Hydraulic Power Pack Manufacturers in india
The manufacturing units are constantly updated with the latest technological advancements emphasizing cost control, efficient inventory management and pollution control. we manufacturers of a slew of Hydraulic Clamping, Hydraulic Press, Hydraulic Cylinders, Hydraulic Power Pack both standard as well as per custom built specification


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## redpearl75

Can this be what our Arjun might look like in the near future...?


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## IndianArmy

redpearl75 said:


> Can this be what our Arjun might look like in the near future...?



Thats too Much for You to Expect from Our Designers

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## !!craft!!

IndianArmy said:


> A Nice Artwork of Arjun



sir why do\ntt the army consider to put a remote weapons staion on arjun??


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## IndianArmy

!!craft!! said:


> sir why do\ntt the army consider to put a remote weapons staion on arjun??



because that would further delay Arjun Project, If Arjun Is to Be Incorporated with all the Modern Technologies, I doubt if Army would Every Get to have Arjun In its Arsenal anytime soon, Thats Why there are 2 separate projects Arjun MK2 and FMBT


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## Dash

IndianArmy said:


> because that would further delay Arjun Project, If Arjun Is to Be Incorporated with all the Modern Technologies, I doubt if Army would Every Get to have Arjun In its Arsenal anytime soon, Thats Why there are 2 separate projects Arjun MK2 and FMBT


Sir, according to you what could be the biggest difference btn Arjun 2 and FMBT?

What is teh factor that decides the need of FMBT over current tanks, any prossible threat scenario?


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## IndianArmy

Dash said:


> Sir, according to you what could be the biggest difference btn Arjun 2 and FMBT?
> 
> What is teh factor that decides the need of FMBT over current tanks, any prossible threat scenario?



Well the difference would be, FMBT would be a Lot stealthier, Weight Less,Would have Active Protection System,Kinetic energy projectiles,Top attack anti tank ammunitions. which is Under development by DRDO and Lets see...


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## flanker143

IndianArmy said:


> Well the difference would be, FMBT would be a Lot stealthier, Weight Less,Would have Active Protection System,Kinetic energy projectiles,Top attack anti tank ammunitions. which is Under development by DRDO and Lets see...



the mcs for mk2 jv'ed with barracuda also reduces arjuns signature whatsoever type it is.

unless u got an engine powerful enough to pull the beast, weight is a problem which will be solved by integration of indigenous powerpack......but the 50 tn fmbt will certainly have the advantage since they will use the same 1500hp powerpack in th fmbt.....

arjun already has the alwcs, it can also have the aps any day but that depends on mod mood and army's demand.....

i never knew arjun mk1 cud not fire sabots....thats certainly new to me !!

*



Top attack anti tank ammunitions. which is Under development by DRDO and Lets see...

Click to expand...

*
are they planning to integrate nag on mk2 bcoz no other anti tank missile is under development by drdo afaik.

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## ironman




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## sathya

*India conducts trials on its Arjun MBT*

JODHPUR (PTI): The defence establishment of the country will be keeping a close watch as India's Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II, which can fire missiles to destroy long range targets, goes through trials in the dessert environs of Pokharan.

The pre-induction trials, which started Saturday, are about the efficacy of scientific and technological up gradation of features of Arjun II, which is under developmental phase.



"Such trials will be undertaken quite frequently till the time it is handed over to the Army," said Col SD Goswami, Defence spokesperson.

Weighing 62 tonnes each, the Army has placed an order for 124 such tanks at a cost of Rs 5,000 crore.

DRDO is working on Arjun Mark II at the CVRDE (Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment) with an immediate task of demonstrating it to the user and ensure the delivery of the first batch comprising 30 tanks by 2013-14.

One of the vital features of the tank is that a missile can be fired from it to destroy long range targets and bring down helicopters. It is also equipped with a panoramic night vision.

The tank will also have an automatic target tracking system, which will add to accuracy while firing on a moving target.


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## Gessler

Kinshuk said:


> kuch bhi kaho, Arjun is not a good looking tank, but anyways it's not going to participate in miss India contest so..



yep...if Arjun is not good-looking, then by that respect, al-khalid is unlookable, its horrible, like a metal-churn
rattle-boned relic





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

al-khalid -




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Devianz

gessler said:


> yep...if Arjun is not good-looking, then by that respect, al-khalid is unlookable, its horrible, like a metal-churn
> rattle-boned relic



That's not Arjun


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
You know that the above picture is not of Arjun......Its written tank ex....it was a prototype.


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## Mosamania

I believe the biggest draw back of Arjun is it's very high price. If the process problem is solved then India may be able to conduct it as it's Main Battle Tank instead of the T-90.


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## Abingdonboy

Mosamania said:


> I believe the biggest draw back of Arjun is it's very high price. If the process problem is solved then India may be able to conduct it as it's Main Battle Tank instead of the T-90.



Well the price will come down somewhat when larger orders are placed but in reality the price is always going to be relatively high because the Arjun (especially Mk.II) is a VERY advanced tank so with very high-end tech so high price is always going to be a factor. If you want the best you have to be prepared to pay for it.

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------




Devianz said:


> That's not Arjun



No it is not Arjun, it is a Arjun turret on a T-72 chassis, an idea tested by IA as a possible UPG to T-72s. Still a possibility.


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## Gessler

Arjun MK-II will come with a greater degree of indigenization...

the german engine will be replaced with an indigenous 1500hp one, quite a few more suspension and
hydro-pneumatic-related things that were procured from germany and belgium will be replaced with an
indigenous alternatives, i guess that would reduce the price to a considerable extent


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## Black Widow

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> You know that the above picture is not of Arjun......Its written tank ex....it was a prototype.



Yes you are right, It was a prototype. Arjun Turrent on T7 chasis. 
Tank EX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is mighty beast






In Action..

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## Omega007

gessler said:


> Arjun MK-II will come with a greater degree of indigenization...
> 
> the german engine will be replaced with an indigenous 1500hp one, quite a few more suspension and
> hydro-pneumatic-related things that were procured from germany and belgium will be replaced with an
> indigenous alternatives, i guess that would reduce the price to a considerable extent



First of all,the Germany (Renk) had supplied the active transmition system of Arjun MkI.The hydro gas suspension was at 1st supplied by General dynamics of USA but that system had repeatedly malfuntioned and was changed with an indigenous suspension developed by CVRDE.
And secondly,no.Arjun MkII won't be cheaper,its stated price is 7+ million $ unit.

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Dude its 2012, nothing is cheaper. Other Main battle tanks also cost like this only. Japans type 10 mbt, french lecrec cost around 10 million$, Abrams and latest Leopard cost around 7-8 million $. T90 cost was around 3-4 million$ in 2007.

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## Gessler

Dudes! I was only saying that price can be reduced somewhat 'coz we'll limit imports

Yes, you're right $7ml is not exactly 'cheap', its quite costly but however if the tank delivers performance
which justifies the price, then i guess we'll induct more MK-IIs

Btw, how many MK-IIs will be inducted? Some said about 250? Or more?

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## rahul_rao

^^^ it doesnt matter how much it costs but it should provide our army with latest technology available.....and should be compatilble with any other MBT

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## rahul_rao

dead?????????????????


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## Water Car Engineer



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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

Omega007 said:


> First of all,the Germany (Renk) had supplied the active transmition system of Arjun MkI.The hydro gas suspension was at 1st supplied by General dynamics of USA but that system had repeatedly malfuntioned and was changed with an indigenous suspension developed by CVRDE.
> And secondly,no.Arjun MkII won't be cheaper,its stated price is 7+ million $ unit.



My humble submission, It doesn't matter how much our products cost to us. cuz our money will remain in side our country,exuding the parts we have imported, from a nation's perspective, It is free.


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## Yogi

@sancho @indianrabbit @SpArK @arp2041 @IND151

Does anyone has any information on the development of indigenous 1500hp or 1800hp engine for Mk2, level of completion or induction in Mk2???

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## sudhir007

*The New Fire Control Computer for Arjun tank..*

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## sudhir007



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## atatwolf

For how long is this project going on now? I heard Arjunk was failed project? Could somebody inform me of the status of this tank?


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## Storm Force

Atatwolf status .
128 mk one delivered in service
Second order of 128 arjun mk ones ordered. Delivery 2014 to 2017.
Mk two arjun under develpment probably nos to delivered another 248 to 348 between 2018 and 2024. 
Each arjun costs twice as much as t90 and is worth that much more in effectiveness. This is India's own version of leopard two tank Germany


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## selvan33

atatwolf said:


> For how long is this project going on now? I heard Arjunk was failed project? Could somebody inform me of the status of this tank?



Who said its a failed project? it had its hard times but not now. Already we are operating 128 arjun MK1 and now another 128 mk1 is under production(delivery starts form next year). And arjun mk2 is under development and IA will surely buy 248 to 372 minimum.


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## Storm Force

PEOPLE TALKING FROM THEIR ARSES.

THE ARJUN IS OUR VERY OWN ABRAHAMS LEOPARD & CHALLENGER of the western armies

it makes the enemies tanks look PUNEY in comparison 

BEAUTIFUL TANK DESIGN


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## Water Car Engineer

atatwolf said:


> For how long is this project going on now? I heard Arjunk was failed project? Could somebody inform me of the status of this tank?




The project will continue until they want a new platform.

Mark 1 is done and inducted.






Now they are working on Mark 2.


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## farhan_9909

leo 2a4 and older arjun prototypes had some striking similarities

thanks to chacha krauss

leo 2a4 and older arjun prototypes had some striking similarities

thanks to chacha krauss


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## GORKHALI

farhan_9909 said:


> leo 2a4 and older arjun prototypes had some striking similarities
> 
> thanks to chacha krauss
> 
> leo 2a4 and older arjun prototypes had some striking similarities
> 
> thanks to chacha krauss



Thankz you.It got barrell and tracks and human driving it.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GORKHALI said:


> Thankz you.It got barrell and tracks and human driving it.



You forgot to add one more thing it was designed by krauss Maffei... with more than 30% of its parts like engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks and fire control systemare imported...


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## Abingdonboy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You forgot to add one more thing it was designed by krauss Maffei... with more than 30% of its parts like engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks and fire control systemare imported...



And? It is a world class system, there is no point in reinventing the wheel- if you can get world-class subsystems/components from others then why not? Even the much admired M1 Abrams has many foreign made/designed/origin elements most prominent would probably be it's barrel which comes from Rheinmetall and is a derivative of their 120 mm L/44 gun

For a first (proper) attempt- it ain't half bad- as some in my part of the world would say!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> And? It is a world class system, there is no point in reinventing the wheel- if you can get world-class subsystems/components from others then why not? Even the much admired M1 Abrams has many foreign made/designed/origin elements most prominent would probably be it's barrel which comes from Rheinmetall and is a derivative of their 120 mm L/44 gun
> 
> For a first (proper) attempt- it ain't half bad- as some in my part of the world would say!



Yes must be the reason why only 125-8? MK-Is and the same number of futur MK-II are on order.. while hundreds of inferior T-90s are being inducted...


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## Abingdonboy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes must be the reason why only 125-8? MK-Is and the same number of futur MK-II are on order.. while hundreds of inferior T-90s are being inducted...



248 MK.1s have been ordered. 124 Mk.2s have been ordered initially and orders are likely to touch 300+ eventually so Mk.1 and 2 orders will total 600-700 at the very least. What the IA is now after is the FMBT which will now be effectively be the Arjun Mk.3 and the IA has stated it has requirements for 1000 FMBTs to start with and this figure will grow in the long term as T-90S is phased out. 


The Arjun is incredibly expensive right now and that is holding the IA back to an extent-~$8MN each which makes it possibly the most expensive tank on the planet. Unit costs will of course decrease with larger orders because of Economices of Scale. 


Addtionally the largest hang up by far is the setting up of the relevant infrastructure for the IA in the field. The IA has traditionally operated medium-weight Russian origin tanks and employed a specific doctrine to transport, maintain, supply and fight with them. Now they are faced with the challenge of operating a heavy 60+ ton tank which is much more Western ideologically and thus requires radically different infrastructure and the IA as only just recently got its head around this challenge. 

The Arjun is a project for the long term buddy, in a few years the success of the project will be most apparent.

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## atatwolf

is this tank better than Altay?


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## BDforever

atatwolf said:


> is this tank better than Altay?



I do not think so


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## Desi Guy

atatwolf said:


> is this tank better than Altay?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/95660-arjun-mark-ii-israeli-view-must-read.html


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> 248 MK.1s have been ordered. 124 Mk.2s have been ordered initially and orders are likely to touch 300+ eventually so Mk.1 and 2 orders will total 600-700 at the very least. What the IA is now after is the FMBT which will now be effectively be the Arjun Mk.3 and the IA has stated it has requirements for 1000 FMBTs to start with and this figure will grow in the long term as T-90S is phased out.
> 
> 
> The Arjun is incredibly expensive right now and that is holding the IA back to an extent-~$8MN each which makes it possibly the most expensive tank on the planet. Unit costs will of course decrease with larger orders because of Economices of Scale.
> 
> 
> Addtionally the largest hang up by far is the setting up of the relevant infrastructure for the IA in the field. The IA has traditionally operated medium-weight Russian origin tanks and employed a specific doctrine to transport, maintain, supply and fight with them. Now they are faced with the challenge of operating a heavy 60+ ton tank which is much more Western ideologically and thus requires radically different infrastructure and the IA as only just recently got its head around this challenge.
> 
> The Arjun is a project for the long term buddy, in a few years the success of the project will be most apparent.



First of all man... Im right about the figures... only 119 Arjun MK-Is were ordered and 128 arjun mk-II were ordered which will start getting inducted from 2015 onwards... unless you can give me a source.. also mk-I costed 16-17crore....while MK-II will cost 34 crore (according to broadsword.... dont know how reliable tht is).... i dont know if tht equals to 8 million dollars per unit.....and for your information FMBT it has been cancelled....as for the most expensive mbt on planet...even M1A2 costs no more than 4.25 to 6.2 million USDs depending on its variant! ... dont tell me tht its more advanced and expensive than Abrams tht USM uses?

About phasing out T-90s which are still being inducted.. dude you still have t-55s,vijayantas and t-72s in service? and ur talkin abt phasing out your brand new t-90s?when they are to become your backbone.


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## Abingdonboy

atatwolf said:


> is this tank better than Altay?





BDforever said:


> I do not think so



The Atlay isn't part of the table but here's a comparison table anyway:







But bear in mind the specs for the Arjun are only for the Mk.1 and not the much improved Mk.2. 


But also be aware the views you'll get on this forum,regarding the Arjun, from certain members will not truly represent the Arjun's true ability and standings.

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## BDforever

Abingdonboy said:


> The Atlay isn't part of the table but here's a comparison table anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But bear in mind the specs for the Arjun are only for the Mk.1 and not the much improved Mk.2.
> 
> 
> But also be aware the views you'll get on this forum,regarding the Arjun, from certain members will not truly represent the Arjun's true ability and standings.



i do not know much about other systems, just found one weakness Arjun uses rifle gun which has less accuracy than smooth bore gun.


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## atatwolf

BDforever said:


> I do not think so



why not?


.


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## BDforever

atatwolf said:


> why not?
> 
> 
> .



i checked Altay's specifications, it has some technologies of K2 Black panther tank (the best tank project so far from my point of view)


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## Abingdonboy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> First of all man... Im right about the figures... only 119 Arjun MK-Is were ordered and 128 arjun mk-II were ordered which will start getting inducted from 2015 onwards... unless you can give me a source







> The army has already ordered *248 Arjun Mark-I *tanks for induction into its armored regiments. The first lot of 124 tanks, for which the orders were placed on the Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) have been handed over to the army.



India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014 | StratPost



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> .. also mk-I costed 16-17crore....while MK-II will cost 34 crore (according to broadsword.... dont know how reliable tht is).... i dont know if tht equals to 8 million dollars per unit.....and for your information FMBT it has been cancelled....as for the most expensive mbt on planet...even M1A2 costs no more than 4.25 to 6.2 million USDs depending on its variant! ... dont tell me tht its more advanced and expensive than Abrams tht USM uses?



Dude- did you even read what I wrote? 



> the IA back to an extent-~$8MN each which makes it possibly the most expensive tank on the planet. Unit costs will of course decrease with larger orders because of Economices of Scale.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4345-arjun-news-discussions-136.html#ixzz2TgOX5w8V



The Mk.2 is set to cost ~$8MN (the MK.1 cost ~$4-5MN ) a unit due to the addition of a lot of new (foreign) tech and advancements over and above the Mk.1. 




> India's Arjun (Lion) Mk II main battle tank will cost US$8.02 million per unit, *defence minister AK Antony has told his nation's parliament*.



http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...most-expensive-tank-&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

Like I said this is due to the relatively small order- 124 nos. initially as compared to the M1 Abrams that has been produced in the 1000s.


Look up *Economies of Scale*:

Economies of scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Wrt being more advanced than the M1- the MK.2 could well be on par with the Abrams for sure, if not marginally ahead, the MK.1 doesn't fare too badly against the M1A2 in pure specs:











DESERT FIGHTER said:


> .and for your information FMBT it has been cancelled.





Like I said, the FMBT has effectively morphed into the Arjun MK.3.



Since you like quoting Broadsword so much:



> The indigenous project to build a Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) is being quietly buried by the army.* Instead, the army&#8217;s tank directorate has proposed keeping faith with the home grown Arjun tank*, while incrementally improving it into the future backbone of the army&#8217;s strike forces.


Broadsword: Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> About phasing out T-90s which are still being inducted.. dude you still have t-55s,vijayantas and t-72s in service? and ur talkin abt phasing out your brand new t-90s?when they are to become your backbone.



I was talking about the FMBT/Arjun MK.3 replacing the T-90S and given the proposed timeline of roll-out for the MK.3 in 2020 this fits nicely with the T-90S' end of life (MBT's have around 20 years of "prime" service before they need to be retired or significantly upgraded). 


The T-55s are out of Armoured corps service and thus out of combat roles- all the T-55s have now either been retired, put into storage or are serving the Indian Army combat engineers as mine-clearance vehicles:








The T-72s will be replaced by the T-90S and Arjuns (Mk.1 and 2) and will be out of service entirely by 2020.

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## Hellraiser007

BDforever said:


> I do not think so



Simple statement is not enough, Back it up with some stats.

Arjun is a heavier breed and can take of hits. the combination of T90 light and agile and Arjun which is heavy and tough is a deadly force.

This tank is evolving, there are as many as 80 upgrades from mark 1 to mark 2. Recently Defense ministry is pushing for mark 3 which is much more advanced.



BDforever said:


> i do not know much about other systems, just found one weakness Arjun uses rifle gun which has less accuracy than smooth bore gun.



You do not know the difference between Sooth bore gun and Rifled Gun. Do you ??

Rifled Gun is accurate and have maximum penetration power .

Smooth bore gun can fire missile compared to Rifled gun where some customization is needed.


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## BDforever

Hellraiser007 said:


> Simple statement is not enough, Back it up with some stats.
> 
> Arjun is a heavier breed and can take of hits. the combination of T90 light and agile and Arjun which is heavy and tough is a deadly force.
> 
> This tank is evolving, there are as many as 80 upgrades from mark 1 to mark 2. Recently Defense ministry is pushing for mark 3 which is much more advanced.
> 
> 
> 
> You do not know the difference between Sooth bore gun and Rifled Gun. Do you ??
> 
> Rifled Gun is accurate and have maximum penetration power .
> 
> Smooth bore gun can fire missile compared to Rifled gun where some customization is needed.



rifle gun is less accurate than smooth bore gun but has greater penetration power.


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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> i do not know much about other systems, just found one weakness Arjun uses rifle gun which has less accuracy than smooth bore gun.



In fact it is quite the opposite- rifled barrels/guns are far more accurate than their Smooth Bore contemporaries. But I do agree the Arjun's Barrel is one of its weaker points as the life of a Rifled barrel is signifanclty less and they cost a LOT of money. 



Hellraiser007 said:


> This tank is evolving, there are as many as *80 upgrades* from mark 1 to mark 2. Recently Defense ministry is pushing for mark 3 which is much more advanced.



93 to be precise! 





Hellraiser007 said:


> Smooth bore gun can fire missile compared to Rifled gun where some customization is needed.


Arjun's rifle barrel can fire the LAHAT ATGW through its barrel.

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## Hellraiser007

BDforever said:


> rifle gun is less accurate than smooth bore gun but has greater penetration power.



*Wrong ...!!!*




> A rifled barrel, having spiral grooves or polygonal rifling, imparts a gyroscopic spin to the projectile that stabilizes it in flight and prevents it from tumbling. *This does two things; first, it increases the accuracy of the projectile by eliminating the random drift due to the Magnus effect, and second, it allows a longer, heavier bullet to be fired from the same caliber barrel, increasing range and power (see external ballistics)*. In the eighteenth century, the standard infantry arm was the smoothbore musket; by the nineteenth century, rifled barrels became the norm, increasing the power and range of the infantry weapon significantly.



Smoothbore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## BDforever

Abingdonboy said:


> In fact it is quite the opposite- *rifled barrels/guns are far more accurate than their Smooth Bore *contemporaries. But I do agree the Arjun's Barrel is one of its weaker points as, for me, a Smooth Bore barrel is the way to go as Rifled barrels need replacing much more often and they cost a bomb to do so.
> 93 to be precise!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun's rifle barrel can fire the LAHAT ATGW through its barrel.



well i read opposite thing ..


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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> rifle gun is less accurate than smooth bore gun but has greater penetration power.



You are wrong- Rifled barrels are by far more accurate. Additionally a major issue with Smooth Bores is the fact they cannot fire as many different types of round as the Rifled- Abrams crews were pretty vocal about this IIRC post "Iraqi Freedom" in 2003 where they would have loved to have HE and HESH rounds.


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## Hellraiser007

Abingdonboy said:


> Arjun's rifle barrel can fire the LAHAT ATGW through its barrel.



I know mate  , reason why i said some amount of customization is need for missiles to fire from rifled gun.


thank for correcting me on the upgrades.



Abingdonboy said:


> You are wrong- Rifled barrels are by far more accurate. Additionally a major issue with Smooth Bores is the fact they cannot fire as many different types of round as the Rifled- Abrams crews were pretty vocal about this IIRC post "Iraqi Freedom" in 2003 where they would have loved to have HE and HESH rounds.



And also a rifled 120 mm Arjun gun can out perform 125 mm smooth bore guns, with accuracy and penetration power

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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> well i read opposite thing ..



Must have got mixed up mate! The Arjun's barrel is a good call- all things considered.


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## BDforever

Hellraiser007 said:


> *Wrong ...!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smoothbore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



In the 1960s smoothbore tank guns were developed by the Soviet Union and later by the experimental US&#8211;FRG MBT-70 project. Based on their experience with the gun/missile system of the BMP-1, the Soviets produced the T-64B main battle tank, with an auto-loaded 2A46 125 mm smoothbore high-velocity tank gun, capable of firing APFSDS ammunition as well as ATGMs. Similar guns continue to be used in the latest Russian T-90, Ukrainian T-84, and Serbian M-84AS MBTs. The German company Rheinmetall developed a more conventional 120 mm smoothbore tank gun which does not fire missiles, adopted for the Leopard 2, and later the U.S. M1 Abrams. The chief advantages of smoothbore designs are their greater suitability for fin stabilised ammunition and their greatly reduced barrel wear compared with rifled designs. Much of the difference in operation between smoothbore and rifled guns shows in the type of secondary ammunition that they fire, with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.

Most modern MBTs now mount a smoothbore gun, with the British Challenger 2 and Indian Arjun being notable exceptions.

source: Tank gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@Abingdonboy


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## Hellraiser007

BDforever said:


> In the 1960s smoothbore tank guns were developed by the Soviet Union and later by the experimental US&#8211;FRG MBT-70 project. Based on their experience with the gun/missile system of the BMP-1, the Soviets produced the T-64B main battle tank, with an auto-loaded 2A46 125 mm smoothbore high-velocity tank gun, capable of firing APFSDS ammunition as well as ATGMs. Similar guns continue to be used in the latest Russian T-90, Ukrainian T-84, and Serbian M-84AS MBTs. The German company Rheinmetall developed a more conventional 120 mm smoothbore tank gun which does not fire missiles, adopted for the Leopard 2, and later the U.S. M1 Abrams. The chief advantages of smoothbore designs are their greater suitability for fin stabilised ammunition and their greatly reduced barrel wear compared with rifled designs. Much of the difference in operation between smoothbore and rifled guns shows in the type of secondary ammunition that they fire, with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.
> 
> Most modern MBTs now mount a smoothbore gun, with the British Challenger 2 and Indian Arjun being notable exceptions.
> 
> source: Tank gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> @Abingdonboy



No where it mentions that the gun is accurate, *the reason for rifling is accuracy *. Smooth bore guns are more suitable for fin stabilized projectiles.


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## BDforever

Hellraiser007 said:


> Arjun MBT can out gun Chinese tanks and Pakistani Tanks, Do not underestimate our tank
> 
> 
> 
> No where it mentions that the gun is accurate, *the reason for rifling is accuracy *. Smooth bore guns are more suitable for fin stabilized projectiles.



i do not underestimate, in fact the difference is very little, whoever will fire first shoot he will win


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014 | StratPost
> 
> 
> 
> Dude- did you even read what I wrote?



This article is from feb 2011... here is the latest article:



> after supplying 119 Arjun Mark-I tanks &#8211; the order initially was for 124 &#8211; DRDO is now developing the Arjun Mark-II



http://idrw.org/?p=20835#more-20835



> Wrt being more advanced than the M1- the MK.2 could well be on par with the Abrams for sure, if not marginally ahead, the MK.1 doesn't fare too badly against the M1A2 in pure specs:



Its not just the specs but the quality.. even on specs abrams beats arjun mk-II.




> Like I said, the FMBT has effectively morphed into the Arjun MK.3.



Even Mk-II is under development and you are talking about MK-III? which is not even on the drawing board...


> Since you like quoting Broadsword so much:
> 
> 
> Broadsword: Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun



Thts great.. about it talks about keeping faith in arjun .. and scraping FMBT? also i know its a "blog" thts why i quoted the price tag not any article..




> I was talking about the FMBT/Arjun MK.3 replacing the T-90S and given the proposed timeline of roll-out for the MK.3 in 2020 this fits nicely with the T-90S' end of life (MBT's have around 20 years of "prime" service before they need to be retired or significantly upgraded).



India placed order initial orders for T-90s in 2001.. and even now its inducting them..... your contradicting urself... one time you say tht t-90s and arjuns will replace t-72s by 2020... and the other hand you say tht arjuns will replace t-90s by 2020?which is it?


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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> In the 1960s smoothbore tank guns were developed by the Soviet Union and later by the experimental US&#8211;FRG MBT-70 project. Based on their experience with the gun/missile system of the BMP-1, the Soviets produced the T-64B main battle tank, with an auto-loaded 2A46 125 mm smoothbore high-velocity tank gun, capable of firing APFSDS ammunition as well as ATGMs. Similar guns continue to be used in the latest Russian T-90, Ukrainian T-84, and Serbian M-84AS MBTs. The German company Rheinmetall developed a more conventional 120 mm smoothbore tank gun which does not fire missiles, adopted for the Leopard 2, and later the U.S. M1 Abrams. The chief advantages of smoothbore designs are their greater suitability for fin stabilised ammunition and their greatly reduced barrel wear compared with rifled designs. Much of the difference in operation between smoothbore and rifled guns shows in the type of secondary ammunition that they fire, with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.
> 
> Most modern MBTs now mount a smoothbore gun, with the British Challenger 2 and Indian Arjun being notable exceptions.
> 
> source: Tank gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> @Abingdonboy



None of this quote says anything about Smooth Bore barrels being more accurate or more powerful than a Rifled- or did I miss something? 


The 2 advantage outlined in the quote are 1) the "greater suitability to fire" APFSDS rounds and 2) less wear (as I have mentioned). 


This bit:



> Much of the difference in operation between smoothbore and rifled guns shows in the type of secondary ammunition that they fire, with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.



Is quite key- so the rifled can do all the things a Smooth Bore can do (with modifications) but it is not the case for teh Smooth Bore being able to do all the rifled can do.



Btw @BDforever you have touched upon a pretty hotly-debated topic and there are always going to be 2 views and ways of looking at it so if you think you can get a conclusive answer here, today, you are wrong.


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## Hellraiser007

BDforever said:


> i do not underestimate, in fact the difference is very little, whoever will fire first shoot he will win


 

No ... our boy can take hits and stand firm.


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## BDforever

ok guys i think the success of smooth bore or rifle gun depends on fire control system i guess.


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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> ok guys i think the success of smooth bore or rifle gun's success depends on fire control system i guess.


And the Arjun family has the best in the business!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Also i wonder why arjun mk-1 doesnt fire missiles... but im sure mk-2 probably would..


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## BDforever

Abingdonboy said:


> And the Arjun family has the best in the business!



can you compare it with MBT2000 ? need to know the difference



Abingdonboy said:


> And the Arjun family has the best in the business!



i like K-2 and Altay tank most


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## Abingdonboy

BDforever said:


> can you compare it with MBT2000 ? need to know the difference



Dude, I'm going to stick to the Arjun as this is the "ARJUN news and discussion" thread and I don't want to invite trolling or provoke anyone. The Arjun is what it is and has a loooong way to go. 



All I will say it that on all counts it is up there with the best MBTs on the planet- end of story as far as I'm concerned. 


I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions:










































http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/95660-arjun-mark-ii-israeli-view-must-read.html


TRISHUL: Orders Placed For Arjun Mk1A MBT&#8217;s Vectronics Suite










Read through the above links and watch the video and tell me what _you _think.

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## BDforever

@Abingdonboy i liked the video, thanks for sharing

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## livingdead

BDforever said:


> @Abingdonboy i liked the video, thanks for sharing


he is a DRDO fanboy..

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## S-DUCT

*Arjun Tank Mk II Containerised Ammunition Bin and Blow Off Panel approved*


> New Delhi: A Containerised Ammunition Bin with Individual Shutters (CABIS) and Blow Off Panel (BOP) has been developed for the Arjun Tank Mk II, a DRDO project for the Indian Army. The ammunition compartment for the Arjun Tank Mk 1 is enclosed on all sides except the front for retrieving of ammunition by the loader. In case of ammunition burning in the ready round bin compartment, the crew&#8217;s life was at risk. DRDO scientists have now isolated the round bin with CABIS.
> 
> Workable even at 30 degree gradient, the modular CABIS has been designed with individual shutters and stowage tubes mounted in a frame compartment of Arjun MBT. The individual Shutter secures each ammunition in the 10 round ammunition compartment through double plunger locking and can be operated with a simple lever and slider crank mechanism. A retention system on top row holds the shutter in horizontal position. It operates defect free at desert&#8217;s dusty environment and can handle load exerted due to propellant burning.
> 
> The BOP relieves excessive pressure and opening is provided on the roof plate compartment. It has two panels which are mounted on an intermediate frame at both ends with special screws along the breadth side of the panels. It creates hogging effect leading to blow-off if pressure builds in the compartment. When panels are flexed, the mounting screws bend displacing one or both panels.
> 
> Three trials were conducted with 10 FSAPDS rounds; 5 FSAPDS and 5 live HESH rounds in random; and 8 inert HESH and 1 live HESH round respectively in te stowage tube of CABIS system. After 1st trial, a spill over of NQM/119 propellant granuels were noticed and a mesh was added below the BOP to eliminate it.
> 
> The trial evaluation and demonstration of CABIS with BOP met the intended requirements and the user has approved the system to be integrated in the Arjun MBT MK II. The system is currently under trials with the Army along with other improvements meant for Arjun Tank MK II


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## AUSTERLITZ

Arjun is by all means a formidable tank,currently it has 2 flaws.
1]Gunner's sight is in front of turret,this creates a gap in the armour integrity.
2]Need better APSFSDS ammo with tungsten or DU core not soft core and long rod penetrator.Suspicion on how ell new APSFSDS round can be used with rifled gun,instead of smoothbore.

Main advantages are superb kanchan armour and deadly power and accuracy of rifled tank gun[advantage of rifled guns].Other upgardes like APS,better engine,LAHAT,new thermal viewer are coming with mk2 anyway.

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## hurt

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Arjun is by all means a formidable tank,currently it has 2 flaws.
> 1]Gunner's sight is in front of turret,this creates a gap in the armour integrity.
> 2]Need better APSFSDS ammo with tungsten or DU core not soft core and long rod penetrator.Suspicion on how ell new APSFSDS round can be used with rifled gun,instead of smoothbore.
> 
> Main advantages are superb kanchan armour and deadly power and accuracy of rifled tank gun[advantage of rifled guns].Other upgardes like APS,better engine,LAHAT,new thermal viewer are coming with mk2 anyway.



Arjun is by all means a formidable tank,currently it has 2 flaws.

1]Gunner's sight is in front of turret,this creates a gap in the armour integrity.
*Armor*
2]Need better APSFSDS ammo with tungsten or DU core not soft core and long rod penetrator.Suspicion on how ell new APSFSDS round can be used with rifled gun,instead of smoothbore.
*GUN*

Plz tell me formidable point


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## Beerbal

S-DUCT said:


> *Arjun Tank Mk II Containerised Ammunition Bin and Blow Off Panel approved*





I saw this feature on M1Abarams.. It is good feature...


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## Beerbal

Abingdonboy said:


> Dude, I'm going to stick to the Arjun as this is the "ARJUN news and discussion" thread and I don't want to invite trolling or provoke anyone. The Arjun is what it is and has a loooong way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> All I will say it that on all counts it is up there with the best MBTs on the planet- end of story as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/95660-arjun-mark-ii-israeli-view-must-read.html
> 
> 
> TRISHUL: Orders Placed For Arjun Mk1A MBT&#8217;s Vectronics Suite
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read through the above links and watch the video and tell me what _you _think.





IA immediately give order of 1000 Arjuna Tank , IA can use 50-50 mix of Arjuna and T90 on western front...


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## Beerbal

BDforever said:


> i do not know much about other systems, just found one weakness Arjun uses rifle gun which has less accuracy than smooth bore gun.





Because it is Indian it is weak??? Do you know why rifled bore was developed? Have you ever thought why Rifle (Type of gun) are better than other guns? Have you ever thought of why grooves are cut into rifle bore???

Discovery channel has beautiful documentary on evolution of gun, I will suggest you to see that...
 @missile firing capability: Smoothbore can do it easily, while rifled gun need special bearing assembly around projectile... and yes Arjuna is capable to fire missiles...


----------



## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Also i wonder why arjun mk-1 doesnt fire missiles... but im sure mk-2 probably would..



Mk1 can fire LAHAT missile also an Indian missle similar to LAHAT is also under development n will be facing trials soon.
 @Abingdonboy can u plz clarify a bit more...


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

hurt said:


> Arjun is by all means a formidable tank,currently it has 2 flaws.
> 
> 1]Gunner's sight is in front of turret,this creates a gap in the armour integrity.
> *Armor*
> 2]Need better APSFSDS ammo with tungsten or DU core not soft core and long rod penetrator.Suspicion on how ell new APSFSDS round can be used with rifled gun,instead of smoothbore.
> *GUN*
> 
> Plz tell me formidable point



A) Thats i not gunner, thats driver and every tank has this. check your tank also , manual vision facility is available when camera is not functioning. 

B) The huge smoothbore cannon fired HEAT rounds that could kill any T-72 with a single shot.
moreover , Armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, the Arjun is believed to be capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds at the rate of 6-8 rounds per minute and the Israeli developed semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile. 

But India didnt choose because Rounds are expensive and india dont have luxury. for PAK these ammunitions are enough. 

We dont need to through mountain to kill a cockroach when it can get killed by slippers.


----------



## hurt

Alfa-Fighter said:


> A) Thats i not gunner, thats driver and every tank has this. check your tank also , manual vision facility is available when camera is not functioning.
> 
> B) The huge smoothbore cannon fired HEAT rounds that could kill any T-72 with a single shot.
> moreover , Armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, the Arjun is believed to be capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds at the rate of 6-8 rounds per minute and the Israeli developed semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile.
> 
> But India didnt choose because Rounds are expensive and india dont have luxury. for PAK these ammunitions are enough.
> 
> We dont need to through mountain to kill a cockroach when it can get killed by slippers.



But there is no T-72 in other Country around India.
HEAT cant kill a tank cover with Reactive armour like Al-Zarrar.
You only want it fight with Type 69?

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## Beerbal

hurt said:


> But there is no T-72 in other Country around India.
> *HEAT cant kill a tank cover with Reactive armour like Al-Zarrar.*
> You only want it fight with Type 69?





Any non-chinese non-pakistani view on it.... Can't Indian tank kill Al-Jharrar?


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## hurt

Beerbal said:


> Any non-chinese non-pakistani view on it.... Can't Indian tank kill Al-Jharrar?



I only think HEAT is not useful


----------



## hurt

Beerbal said:


> Any non-chinese non-pakistani view on it.... Can't Indian tank kill Al-Jharrar?



And 120 mm rifled gun is not useful

IF you want to own powerful fire,120mm smoothbore cannon German production is the only one


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## Alfa-Fighter

hurt said:


> And 120 mm rifled gun is not useful
> 
> IF you want to own powerful fire,120mm smoothbore cannon German production is the only one



which Gun is Accurate ? smooth or rifled?


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## hurt

Alfa-Fighter said:


> which Gun is Accurate ? smooth or rifled?



It depends on fire Control system.


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## hurt

Alfa-Fighter said:


> which Gun is Accurate ? smooth or rifled?



Do you think Arjun Accurate than Leopard 2A6?


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## Alfa-Fighter

hurt said:


> It depends on fire Control system.



nope Rifled gun know for its accuracy  check it. thats why Arjun can have *** target while on moving.



hurt said:


> Do you think Arjun Accurate than Leopard 2A6?


 in terms of accuracy , YES


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## IND151

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/253964-arjun-mk-ii-gearing-up-final-trials.html


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## hurt

Alfa-Fighter said:


> nope Rifled gun know for its accuracy  check it. thats why Arjun can have *** target while on moving.
> 
> 
> in terms of accuracy , YES



1All Third generation MBT can got targer while on moving.

2


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## shree835

*Arjun MK-II Gearing up for final trials
*

Arjun MK-II is all set and gearing up for its final Summer Trials which are to be held by end of next month or in early July before it hits productions. Indian army has asked for 93 improvements to the Arjun Mark II tank including 19 major modifications.

All the modifications suggested by the army had been successfully incorporated in the tank and will be ready for final trials by Indian army after which DRDO will seek clearance for production to start. Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi will need 30 months (Two and a half years) to deliver first batch of Arjun MK-2 to Indian army, DRDO is also hoping for fresh orders of Arjun MK-II from its current 126 placed by Indian army some time back.
MK-2 will see increase in weight from 62 tonne to 67 tonne. The suspension has been re-designed to handle up to 70 tonne weight. Wheels are bigger in dimensions and have improved track length, MK-2 will be powered by the same MTU engine imported from Germany but it has been improved to carry extra weight of the tank but the top speed of the tank will be limited to 58kmph coming down from 72kmph seen on MK-1 Arjun. DRDO is working on indigenous powerhouse for future tanks but Integrations with Arjun can only happen if Army places order for 3 more Regiments of Arjun MKII (350). Otherwise it will only serve in next generation battle tank which Drdo is developing under Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT) Program for Indian Army post 2020.

MK-2 will have improvements like missile firing capability, improved commanders panoramic sight with night vision, Hunter killer capability, improved Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) , improved communication equipments along with better navigation aid , full frontal Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA), Mine plough , improved gun barrel , additional ammunition types.

In Previous trials MK2 did not face any issues and Army was satisfied with its performance, DRDO has now completed all the improvements asked by Indian army on MK-2 variant and hopes Army will be satisfied after final rounds of trials and clears production of it along with fresh orders.



Arjun MK-II Gearing up for final trials | idrw.org


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## Beerbal

hurt said:


> It depends on fire Control system.





Let rephrase the question,

Under similar environment (hardware and software) which is more accurate, Smooth bore or Rifled.. 


You chinese ppl deliberately try to derail the thread, His question was simply comparision btwn rifled and smoothbore gun, from where the FCS came into picture.. 

Thats why I don't argue with chinese, If I troll, Pakistani moderators will immediately ban me. While Chinese troll they enjoy immunity.


----------



## hurt

Beerbal said:


> Stop posting emoticas, On what basis you said Smooth bore is more accurate than rifled?
> 
> 
> Stop trolling..



I dont think Smooth bore is more accurate than rifled,but I think Leopard 2A6 accurate than Arjun.


----------



## Beerbal

Improve your knowledge before trolling.. Hope google is working in communist china,,,


Smooth Bore vs Rifled - Modern Vehicles Discussion - World of Tanks official forum
with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns)

As far as KE ammuntion is concerned, smoothbore is the way to go. Fin ammuntion doesn't like being spun, so our APFSDS ammuntion has to be fitted with a* slipping driving band*. :About Brits Tank

Rifling of the barrel imparts spin on the projectile, improving ballistic accuracy.



Educate yourself chinese member..



hurt said:


> I dont think Smooth bore is more accurate than rifled,but I think Leopard 2A6 accurate than Arjun.





And who denied that?? Undoubtly Leopard is best tank of word.. and who asked you for d!ck comparision??? As I see the Indian memeber ask this question 


"which Gun is Accurate ? smooth or rifled?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4345-arjun-news-discussions-139.html#ixzz2U6VMtYMJ"


where he mention Leopard in his question? why you are making sticky thread into d!ck comparision thread? Isn't it called trolling? Isn't it is reason for your ban?


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## Beerbal

@Alfa-Fighter : Coming to your question...

Rifled guns are more precise, The projectile revolve when coming our of barrel. There are few rounds which doen't need rotation, those rounds can not be fired with normal rifled guns...


Though Those round and missiles can be fired with rifled guns with the use of a bearing, The bearing is coupled around projectile the bearing revolve while projectile remain stable in barrel. This is how Lahat will be fired from Arjuna... 

Its not rocket science, Its acivable, just an extra bearing per round will be used...


----------



## kurup

Looks like hurt is butt hurt when there is some positive news from India ......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> Mk1 can fire LAHAT missile also an Indian missle similar to LAHAT is also under development n will be facing trials soon.
> 
> @Abingdonboy can u plz clarify a bit more...



A source would be helpfull... although im 200% sure it doesnt fire DU rounds either... nor india has even developed one.


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## Abingdonboy

Yogi said:


> Mk1 can fire LAHAT missile also an Indian missle similar to LAHAT is also under development n will be facing trials soon.
> 
> @Abingdonboy can u plz clarify a bit more...



I had heard something like this- I'll see what I ca dig up.


----------



## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A source would be helpfull... although im 200% sure it doesnt fire DU rounds either... nor india has even developed one.



LAHAT missile was test fired from Arjun way back in 2005 itself...

LAser Homing Attack Missiles (LAHAT) was successfully tested on the Arjun main battle tank of the Indian Army in 2005. Image courtesy of Ajai Shukla. - Image - Army Technology
 @Abingdonboy

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> LAHAT missile was test fired from Arjun way back in 2005 itself...
> 
> LAser Homing Attack Missiles (LAHAT) was successfully tested on the Arjun main battle tank of the Indian Army in 2005. Image courtesy of Ajai Shukla. - Image - Army Technology
> 
> @Abingdonboy



Go through the mk-2 thread... and you will read about the modifications... tht unlike mk-1... mk-2 will be able to fire missiles... as for the link you post... it states tht lahat was "tested" on mk-1.. and the author is "ajay shukla" a blogger.


----------



## Abingdonboy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> "ajay shukla" a blogger.



Ajai Shukla is the owner of Broadsword and you have often quoted this "blog".


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> Ajai Shukla is the owner of Broadsword and you have often quoted this "blog".



Only quoted him once about the price of an arjun.. and i did notify tht it was a blog... selective memory?


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

hurt said:


> Arjun is by all means a formidable tank,currently it has 2 flaws.
> 
> 1]Gunner's sight is in front of turret,this creates a gap in the armour integrity.
> *Armor*
> 2]Need better APSFSDS ammo with tungsten or DU core not soft core and long rod penetrator.Suspicion on how ell new APSFSDS round can be used with rifled gun,instead of smoothbore.
> *GUN*
> 
> Plz tell me formidable point



Kanchan chobham type armour,which withstood direct t-90 rounds,when ERA added armour is extremely good.A couple of armour guys on the israeli forum who had been to india were saying armour was excellent.
The rifled tank gun has extreme accuracy and enormous power,can hit suitcase sized target at 2km.This is because rifled guns provide more accuracy by their design.


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## Beerbal

Yogi said:


> LAHAT missile was test fired from Arjun way back in 2005 itself...
> 
> LAser Homing Attack Missiles (LAHAT) was successfully tested on the Arjun main battle tank of the Indian Army in 2005. Image courtesy of Ajai Shukla. - Image - Army Technology
> 
> @Abingdonboy








Today is 2013.... and ppl still thing that our Tank can't fire Missiles... If it can fire missiles (Using Bearing ring) it can fire any other round... 

And what is the use of having tank if it can not counter possible enemy tank????


----------



## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Go through the mk-2 thread... and you will read about the modifications... tht unlike mk-1... mk-2 will be able to fire missiles... as for the link you post... it states tht lahat was "tested" on mk-1.. and the author is "ajay shukla" a blogger.



Ok here r 2 more sources n r not written by Ajay Shukla, Plz read the last para in both the articles they confirm the same news hope that would do...

Lahat Laser Guided Missile

Nirbhay likely to be test-fired in April | The Hindu - The Hindu: Mobile Edition
 @Abingdonboy

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> Ok here r 2 more sources n r not written by Ajay Shukla, Plz read the last para in both the articles they confirm the same news hope that would do...
> 
> Lahat Laser Guided Missile
> 
> Nirbhay likely to be test-fired in April | The Hindu - The Hindu: Mobile Edition
> 
> @Abingdonboy



Thanks for proving me right:



> A *modified version of Arjun*-Mark I main battle tank will prove its mettle by firing a LAHAT missile


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## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Thanks for proving me right:



The usual Pakistani ranting nothing new i m seeing here, Pakistanis r tuned to see n hear only that portion which is fulfils their fantasies...



> *A modified version of Arjun- Mark I main battle tank will prove its mettle by firing a
> LAHAT missile from an Army
> range this month.* The LAHAT
> (Laser Homing Attack or Laser Homing Anti-Tank missile) is a
> third-generation semi-active
> low-weight anti-tank missile.
> *This version was fired from the Arjun tank in 2004.* The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, a
> DRDO facility at Avadi, designed
> and developed the Arjun.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> The usual Pakistani ranting nothing new i m seeing here, Pakistanis r tuned to see n hear only that portion which is fulfils their fantasies...



So india had a modifed version of arjun in 2004? 

Than why is the fact tht mk-2 can fire missile being touted as a new feature in mk-2?
http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...5IGgAw&usg=AFQjCNF0ZbFfhN_Q7PJLjzqrSHSN68CpAA


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## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So india had a modifed version of arjun in 2004?
> 
> Than why is the fact tht mk-2 can fire missile being touted as a new feature in mk-2?
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...5IGgAw&usg=AFQjCNF0ZbFfhN_Q7PJLjzqrSHSN68CpAA



First u said Mk1 can't fire missiles - i said it can.

Than u said Give me proof - I provided u proof.

Than u said Its Ajay Shukla just a blooger - I provided u 2 more source.

Than without even reading the whole article u started ranting I M RIGHT RIGHT - I Again proved u wrong.

Now u r still not satisfied BCOZ According to u India can't modify Arjun to test LAHAT in 2004 - Reason It Doesn't Fulfil ur Wet Dreams...

If u even had an iota of knowledge with respect to Tank Guns u would have known than that Rifle guns can fire missiles with Little Modifications to fit bearings to fire missiles, so ofcourse DRDO had to modify it a bit to test LAHAT in 2004, its not some rocket science but unfortunately Pakistanis Love to Live in Denials....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> First u said Mk1 can't fire missiles - i said it can.
> 
> Than u said Give me proof - I provided u proof.
> 
> Than u said Its Ajay Shukla just a blooger - I provided u 2 more source.
> 
> Than without even reading the whole article u started ranting I M RIGHT RIGHT - I Again proved u wrong.
> 
> Now u r still not satisfied BCOZ According to u India can't modify Arjun to test LAHAT in 2004 - Reason It Doesn't Fulfil ur Wet Dreams...
> 
> If u even had an iota of knowledage with respect to Tank Guns u would have known than that Rifle guns can fire missiles with Little Modifications to fit bearings to fire missiles, so ofcourse DRDO had to modify it a bit to test LAHAT in 2004, its not some rocket science but unfortunately Pakistanis Love to Live in Denials....



Arguements = denial?

Did you even pass the 10th grade? ur sources clearly talk about a modified arjun mbt.. while it wasnt even in production in 2004..


----------



## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Arguements = denial?
> 
> Did you even pass the 10th grade? ur sources clearly talk about a modified arjun mbt.. while it wasnt even in production in 2004..



Madarasa Boy u don't need to hit the production to test a missile all u need is a prototype to conduct a test....


----------



## DARKY

MK-1 can Fire 105mm Lahat missile MK-2 will fire 120mm Lahat version or CLATGM made by DRDO with even heavier warhead.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> Madarasa Boy u don't need to hit the production to test a missile all u need is a prototype to conduct a test....



Never knew Garrison academy was a madarassa... did they teach you about that in ur asharam or some hindu fanatic school run by sangh paravar or somethin?


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## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Never knew Garrison academy was a madarassa... did they teach you about that in ur asharam or some hindu fanatic school run by sangh paravar or somethin?



Couldn't stick to the topic r u running outta arguments or what...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Yogi said:


> Couldn't stick to the topic r u running outta arguments or what...



Not worth arguing with somebody who gets personal.......you can rant about anything... good luck


----------



## Yogi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not worth arguing with somebody who gets personal.......you can rant about anything... good luck



Was there still something left to argue, i already answered to ur every query.

Anyways good line to save ur face...


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Thanks for proving me right:


LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
ARJUN TANK FIRE POWER:ANTI-TANK MISSILE -LAHAT - YouTube

Both will stop you queries, Pic with Firing missiles from Arjun. 

Do PAK tank fires missiles? any pic of that? 

But when ask about Pakistan about proof and Pic , they start looking here and their. They cant provide pic/videos of their latest tool. 

In recent PAF exercise they didn't showed video of their ACWAS, only release inside pic , Gods knows they pic were taken before they got destroyed.



Yogi said:


> Was there still something left to argue, i already answered to ur every query.
> 
> Anyways good line to save ur face...



Most of the Pakistani lost and don't have any proof and if you show them mirror and asked toughs question they start giving banning you .

Most of pakistani talks on fantasy and only someone statement with no pic proofs, in same statement PAK President Mush declared oak satellite /space program is more adavnce and ahead of India.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Never knew Garrison academy was a madarassa... did they teach you about that in ur asharam or some hindu fanatic school run by sangh paravar or somethin?



But most of the Hindu school came with pic/video proofs unlike pak who only quote statement and nothing to show in actual and talk about fantasy worlds. come with facts and pictures and then talk. 

BTW to break you dream in below post.

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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not worth arguing with somebody who gets personal.......you can rant about anything... good luck



Nothing personal but come with proof and figures and facts and not fancy imaginary story.


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Really illustrates how big and armoured the turret really is compared to soviet style cramped mbts.This is one very heavy armoured beast.


----------



## Yogi

@Alfa-Fighter

Don't get too emotional brother i have seen many such members on this forum before n Yes Pak tanks can fire missile its no rocket science.

But the Topic in hand is Arjun rem...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
> ARJUN TANK FIRE POWER:ANTI-TANK MISSILE -LAHAT - YouTube
> 
> Both will stop you queries, Pic with Firing missiles from Arjun.
> 
> Do PAK tank fires missiles? any pic of that?
> 
> But when ask about Pakistan about proof and Pic , they start looking here and their. They cant provide pic/videos of their latest tool.



Yeah man... T-80UD (T-84s), AKs cant fire sniper,reflects or red sparrow missiles with bigger warheads developed by POF.. 


> In recent PAF exercise they didn't showed video of their ACWAS, only release inside pic , Gods knows they pic were taken before they got destroyed.



Yes all 8 of them were destroyed..



> Most of the Pakistani lost and don't have any proof and if you show them mirror and asked toughs question they start giving banning you .



You mean getting abusive.


> Most of pakistani talks on fantasy and only someone statement with no pic proofs, in same statement PAK President Mush declared oak satellite /space program is more adavnce and ahead of India.



Do show us tht statement.



> But most of the Hindu school came with pic/video proofs unlike pak who only quote statement and nothing to show in actual and talk about fantasy worlds. come with facts and pictures and then talk.



Hindu schools come with videos?  I did my schooling in various army public schools, my matriculation from Garisson academy,my FSC from FC,and bachelors from BZU ... tried british law from a campus of LU.... and now im doing CPL... 



Alfa-Fighter said:


> LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
> ARJUN TANK FIRE POWER:ANTI-TANK MISSILE -LAHAT - YouTube
> 
> Both will stop you queries, Pic with Firing missiles from Arjun.
> 
> Do PAK tank fires missiles? any pic of that?
> 
> But when ask about Pakistan about proof and Pic , they start looking here and their. They cant provide pic/videos of their latest tool.



Yeah man... T-80UD (T-84s), AKs cant fire sniper,reflects or red sparrow missiles with bigger warheads developed by POF.. 


> In recent PAF exercise they didn't showed video of their ACWAS, only release inside pic , Gods knows they pic were taken before they got destroyed.



Yes all 8 of them were destroyed..



> Most of the Pakistani lost and don't have any proof and if you show them mirror and asked toughs question they start giving banning you .



You mean getting abusive.


> Most of pakistani talks on fantasy and only someone statement with no pic proofs, in same statement PAK President Mush declared oak satellite /space program is more adavnce and ahead of India.



Do show us tht statement.



> But most of the Hindu school came with pic/video proofs unlike pak who only quote statement and nothing to show in actual and talk about fantasy worlds. come with facts and pictures and then talk.



Hindu schools come with videos?  I did my schooling in various army public schools, my matriculation from Garisson academy,my FSC from FC,and bachelors from BZU ... tried british law from a campus of LU.... and now im doing CPL... 



AUSTERLITZ said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> Really illustrates how big and armoured the turret really is compared to soviet style cramped mbts.This is one very heavy armoured beast.



Dude which machine gun is that?


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

PKM general purpose MG i think.


----------



## ironman

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Arguements = denial?
> 
> Did you even pass the 10th grade? ur sources clearly talk about a modified arjun mbt.. while it wasnt even in production in 2004..



Straight from the top..

*We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005, pointed out Sundaresh. It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHATs designator into the Arjuns fire control system.*

Army to purchase more Arjun tanks | Business Standard


----------



## Water Car Engineer

This is an old pic of Arjun firing the Lahat.










Arjun will use CLGM too.

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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah man... T-80UD (T-84s), AKs cant fire sniper,reflects or red sparrow missiles with bigger warheads developed by POF..
> 
> 
> Yes all 8 of them were destroyed..
> 
> 
> 
> You mean getting abusive.
> 
> 
> Do show us tht statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Hindu schools come with videos?  I did my schooling in various army public schools, my matriculation from Garisson academy,my FSC from FC,and bachelors from BZU ... tried british law from a campus of LU.... and now im doing CPL...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah man... T-80UD (T-84s), AKs cant fire sniper,reflects or red sparrow missiles with bigger warheads developed by POF..
> 
> Yes all 8 of them were destroyed..
> 
> You mean getting abusive.
> 
> Do show us tht statement.
> 
> Hindu schools come with videos?  I did my schooling in various army public schools, my matriculation from Garisson academy,my FSC from FC,and bachelors from BZU ... tried british law from a campus of LU.... and now im doing CPL...
> 
> 
> 
> Dude which machine gun is that?



why you moving from the topic , Topic is Arjun 1 an fire Missile or Not. You claimed Arjun 1 cant fire missile, now we proved Arjun -1 , So now you start changing the topic and running away from Missile firing capability? 

Pervez Musharraf deserves a second chance, our economy needs him! &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog
WAFF | Asia & Pacific Defence Forum | World's Armed Forces Forum: Not only missiles Pakistan's Space Program ahead of India's
http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...es-second-chance-our-economy-needs-him-4.html

*&#8220;Pakistan&#8217;s space programme is now ahead of India after the formal launching of Paksat-1 and this is due to the hard work of our scientists, and I am sure Indians would take another 30 months to do the job.&#8221; *Mush words 

All this shows your ignorance and ignorance in PAK from top to bottom and make only jocks without head and leg. That is why is pak , Just cartoons from very TOP to Bottom. 

Tomorrow if PAK started saying sun rises from North , then expect every other is fool and believe you . and exactly this is what you are doing, running from pillar to post when defeated.

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## Beerbal

@DESERT FIGHTER: Are u satisfied now? You have enough proof that Arjuna MK I had fired Missile in 2005 . We have given you Video, Still pics, Article everything,,,


Now you do 2 things:
1. Accept that you were misinformed.
2. Give us similar proof tht pakistani tank too did the same...

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## DARKY

Beerbal said:


> 2. Give us similar proof tht pakistani tank too did the same...



Al Khalid does fire Kornet.. There was an old video too... but it missed its target in that video.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Beerbal said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER: Are u satisfied now? You have enough proof that Arjuna MK I had fired Missile in 2005 . We have given you Video, Still pics, Article everything,,,
> 
> 
> Now you do 2 things:
> 1. Accept that you were misinformed.
> 2. Give us similar proof tht pakistani tank too did the same...



1)I accept it.... the smaller version of Lahat is being used on mk-1.
2) AK and T-80UD/T-84s use modified Kombat and AT-11 Sniper missiles.

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...TJhoF4&usg=AFQjCNHaPYDaD3Pc7xVB6CfBlu9l7amW4Q

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Report On the International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...44GQAg&usg=AFQjCNHQtG0LBLMPm1mUFehYCAJNRoVBcw

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...t4DgBg&usg=AFQjCNG5V-3Wh_lKbmQisRty_7W59gKxXg


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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 1)I accept it.... the smaller version of Lahat is being used on mk-1.
> 2) AK and T-80UD/T-84s use modified Kombat and AT-11 Sniper missiles.
> 
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...TJhoF4&usg=AFQjCNHaPYDaD3Pc7xVB6CfBlu9l7amW4Q
> 
> International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Report On the International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)
> 
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...44GQAg&usg=AFQjCNHQtG0LBLMPm1mUFehYCAJNRoVBcw
> 
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...t4DgBg&usg=AFQjCNG5V-3Wh_lKbmQisRty_7W59gKxXg



Where is the video /Pic bro ? 
You only insisted on Video /pic and not written materials? Now show us video/Pic of firing ?



DARKY said:


> Al Khalid does fire Kornet.. There was an old video too... but it missed its target in that video.



 thats why they didn't release any other video


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Where is the video /Pic bro ?
> You only insisted on Video /pic and not written materials? Now show us video/Pic of firing ?



You asked for proof.. i gave you prof...




> thats why they didn't release any other video.



Must be the reason the inferior Mbt-2000 is in service with Morocco,Peru,Bangladesh,Myanmar and Sri lanka?... while the mighty arjun has had only 119 orders... to save face perhaps?


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You asked for proof.. i gave you prof...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be the reason the inferior Mbt-2000 is in service with Morocco,Peru,Bangladesh,Myanmar and Sri lanka?... while the mighty arjun has had only 119 orders... to save face perhaps?



no that was not a proof it was a distraction 

any way why do people buy Suzuki Alto in Thousands ever month but same cant be said about the range rover wonder why


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

GURU DUTT said:


> no that was not a proof it was a distraction
> 
> any way why do people buy Suzuki Alto in Thousands ever month but same cant be said about the range rover wonder why



Yet india is bying suzuki altos (T-90s) tht too in hundreds but not the "Range rover" arjun?


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

Arjun's critical problem is logistics.Army can't move it around strategically,railway network is not available everywhere.Armoured recovery vehicle not in mass production.Without these despite excellent tank IA can't field many.As infrastructure builds up to support 60 tonne plus tank,more will be seen.


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yet india is bying suzuki altos (T-90s) tht too in hundreds but not the "Range rover" arjun?



well you are free to have fun in your fancy land but we consider T 72 as alto . T90 as Toyota Prado and Arjun as range rover but i guess lookin at your leajousi and pathetikk state you cant even afford an alto so your going for cheap chinese copies and looking at the super dupar work chinese engines are doing for your railways you yourself are pretty much sure what might happen with your tank force so you went for a ukrenien engine which itself is a russian design now try to join the links and you know whats the power of T 90 which was made after russains rejected the T 80 /ukrenian T 84

Have a nice day sir


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GURU DUTT said:


> well you are free to have fun in your fancy land but we consider T 72 as alto . T90 as Toyota Prado and Arjun as range rover but i guess lookin at your leajousi and pathetikk state you cant even afford an alto so your going for cheap chinese copies and looking at the super dupar work chinese engines are doing for your railways you yourself are pretty much sure what might happen with your tank force so you went for a ukrenien engine which itself is a russian design now try to join the links and you know whats the power of T 90 which was made after russains rejected the T 80 /ukrenian T 84
> 
> Have a nice day sir



Lol... sunny boy... go learn to spell first.. cant understand anything in ur post... also why would russians buy T-84? 

Jaa munna go read a book or something..


----------



## Anony

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yet india is bying suzuki altos (T-90s) tht too in hundreds but not the "Range rover" arjun?



Our western neighbour has very weak bridges and road on their side of border.They are made to drive Maruti 800. A luxurious and heavy Range Rover can pass through them but fortunately Altos can. This is why Range Rover not inducted in numbers but Altos are.

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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol... sunny boy... go learn to spell first.. cant understand anything in ur post... also why would russians buy T-84?
> 
> Jaa munna go read a book or something..



well i said russian T 90 is an evolution of t 72 , T80 which was T 84 for ukrein after its independence from soviet union just like Indian railways remained indian railways but the indian railways across the western border became pakistani railways but you dint read that well i know it burns pakistanies emotionally when they see that trhey cant get better stuiff than there mortal enemy and even if they want it they cant get it deu to there economy and over zelous foriegn policy issues aqnd there biggest ally giving its best tech to there mortal enemy thru a proxy state and all yopu could do is burn with jealousy lolzzzzzz

we call this behaviour = angur khatte hain = pakistanies making fun of Arjun

and whebn you count answer any of the post you try to bully me with spelling mistakes well they may be crappy but im not going to give a grammer test ...cheers mate


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Anony said:


> Our western neighbour has very weak bridges and road on their side of border.They are made to drive Maruti 800. A luxurious and heavy Range Rover can pass through them but fortunately Altos can. This is why Range Rover not inducted in numbers but Altos are.



Its also heavy for your own country...



GURU DUTT said:


> well i said russian T 90 is an evolution of t 72 , *T80 which was T 84* for ukrein after its independence from soviet union just like Indian railways remained indian railways but the indian railways across the western border became pakistani railways but you dint read that well i know it burns pakistanies emotionally when they see that trhey cant get better stuiff than there mortal enemy and even if they want it they cant get it deu to there economy and over zelous foriegn policy issues aqnd there biggest ally giving its best tech to there mortal enemy thru a proxy state and all yopu could do is burn with jealousy lolzzzzzz
> 
> we call this behaviour = angur khatte hain = pakistanies making fun of Arjun
> 
> and whebn you count answer any of the post you try to bully me with spelling mistakes well they may be crappy but im not going to give a grammer test ...cheers mate



 ... ur a genius...


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Its also heavy for your own country...



well it is heavy thats why we are working on it and since its peace time we can work on many things well at least we are not doing just paint job lolzzz a country that cant even design a motor bike is makin fun of a country which is way ahead in every field beit auto mobiles , software ,infrastructure , defence or any thing imaginable and when pakistanies cant find any face saver they make fun of other what dio we call this attitude ????


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GURU DUTT said:


> well it is heavy thats why we are working on it



by makin it heavier? 


> and since its peace time we can work on many things well at least we are not doing just paint job lolzzz



yeah just like t-80 = t-84.. 



> a country that* cant even design a motor bike* is makin fun of a country which is way ahead in every field beit auto mobiles , software ,infrastructure , defence or any thing imaginable and when pakistanies cant find any face saver they make fun of other what dio we call this attitude ????



google it kid... we also make trucks..


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> by makin it heavier?
> 
> 
> yeah just like t-80 = t-84..
> 
> 
> 
> google it kid... we also make trucks..



well care to post links what truck pakistan makes and can you compare them with what india makes 

besides what if Arjun is heavy its not there for a fashion photo shoot its there for heavy armour which is among the best in the world and is compareble to most western tanks even tonnage is almost same and so are the capabilities of Arjun Mk1 & MK2 as compared to Leo 2 , Abraham 
well do you know how much trucks , car , bikes , Raiway engines and other heavy machienerry we indian makes and whats there reputaion all over the world

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GURU DUTT said:


> well care to post links what truck pakistan makes and can you compare them with what india makes



Google HINOPAK and ADAM...and yasoob.



> besides what if Arjun is heavy its not there for a fashion photo shoot its there for heavy armour which is among the best in the world and is compareble to most western tanks even tonnage is almost same and so are the capabilities of Arjun Mk1 & MK2 as compared to Leo 2 , Abraham
> well do you know how much trucks , car , bikes , Raiway engines and other heavy machienerry we indian makes and whats there reputaion all over the world



If its that great why did you order only 119? and go for around 1000 T-90s? lol... as for cars,bikes etc... yet you import even ammo from russia?


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Google HINOPAK and ADAM...and yasoob.
> 
> 
> 
> If its that great why did you order only 119? and go for around 1000 T-90s? lol... as for cars,bikes etc... yet you import even ammo from russia?



well whats wrong in importing some ammo and to your knowledge do you know how much british challenger tanks are built over the years


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GURU DUTT said:


> well whats wrong in importing some ammo and to your knowledge do you know how much british challenger tanks are built over the years



 .. i have nothing more to say... you win.


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## GURU DUTT

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> .. i have nothing more to say... you win.



Good for you


----------



## li0nheart

check out this video






What's everybody's view on this...


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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Google HINOPAK and ADAM...and yasoob.


What is the EURO standard of those engine??? I think you import Engine CKD or SKD from , Hinopak import Engines from japan and don't know the which Euro standard. 

Cant name the Japanese companies from which they import engine, In India , Euro V std engine going from 2014-15 from EURO IV ?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> If its that great why did you order only 119? and go for around 1000 T-90s? lol... as for cars,bikes etc... yet you import even ammo from russia?



Well you only About 500, Al-Khalid tanks in service, why you import T-80 from Ukraine at the same time when Al-Khalid is made? 

India only got with Standards, logic you cant understand , just like someone think Arjun MK-1 cant fire Missiles.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> What is the EURO standard of those engine??? I think you import Engine CKD or SKD from , Hinopak import Engines from japan and don't know the which Euro standard.
> 
> Cant name the Japanese companies from which they import engine, In India , Euro V std engine going from 2014-15 from EURO IV ?



They are euro 4.


> Well you only About 500, Al-Khalid tanks in service, why you import T-80 from Ukraine at the same time when Al-Khalid is made?
> 
> India only got with Standards, logic you cant understand , just like someone think Arjun MK-1 cant fire Missiles.



We dont have T-80s... we have T-84s... and we bought them in late 1990s n early 2000s... when AKs were not in service... after its induction we never bought any foriegn tank!


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## Storm Force

please dont compare a $2 million dollar AL KHALID light tank WITHB A NEAR $6 MILLION indian arjun Tanks

INDIA WANTS 10 REGIMENTS OF HEAVEY ARMOUR which ARJUN will provide by 2017 with 450 tanks mk1 & 2 

pakistanis DONT HAVE THE CONCEPT OR MONEY TO INDUCT 10 REGIMENTS OF HEAVEY ARMOUR

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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They are euro 4.


The company website dont mentioned anything about Euro standard, it cannot be Euro4 , 

*aahaa....i find it . And the engine is EURO 1 , dont embarrassed yourself. check yourself.*
FM1J Specifiations
FG1J Specifications





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We dont have T-80s... we have T-84s... and we bought them in late 1990s n early 2000s... when AKs were not in service... after its induction we never bought any foriegn tank!



C'mon again misinformed , you bough 320 T80UD thanks, and you don't have T84 at all , and Al-Khalid is Chinese developed tank name MBT-2000 which china sold to other countries also. 

Before that u buy from Ukraine , now you manufacturing AK under Chinese lic. but since 2001 till 2013 u only have 500 Numbers? 50 tank per year . why so slow??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> The company website dont mentioned anything about Euro standard, it cannot be Euro4 ,
> 
> *aahaa....i find it . And the engine is EURO 1 , dont embarrassed yourself. check yourself.*
> FM1J Specifiations
> FG1J Specifications



They dont just make 2 trucks .... they make several trucks.. ... kiddo..and they also make buses!




> C'mon again misinformed , you bough 320 T80UD thanks, and you don't have T84 at all



Maybe you didnt read about the objections from russia... after which the T-80UD recieved the systems as t-84 had.. i.e Turret,gun,engine,FCS etc etc.



> and Al-Khalid is Chinese developed tank name MBT-2000 which china sold to other countries also.



Do share the "chinese subsystems" tht AK uses.. 


> Before that u buy from Ukraine , now you manufacturing AK under Chinese lic. but since 2001 till 2013 u only have 500 Numbers? 50 tank per year . why so slow??



Lol under license...  50 more will be delivered this year making it to around 600 tanks... and its only 50 bcoz AK-II will become the backbone of our armour not AK-I.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Storm Force said:


> please dont compare a $2 million dollar AL KHALID light tank WITHB A NEAR $6 MILLION indian arjun Tanks
> 
> INDIA WANTS 10 REGIMENTS OF HEAVEY ARMOUR which ARJUN will provide by 2017 with 450 tanks mk1 & 2
> 
> pakistanis DONT HAVE THE CONCEPT OR MONEY TO INDUCT 10 REGIMENTS OF HEAVEY ARMOUR



We all know how stupid you are... no need to further boast of it... the *inferior chinese version* of AK costed 3.8 million a pop... so you can guess the price of an AK..


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## SPFG

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They dont just make 2 trucks .... they make several trucks.. ... kiddo..and they also make buses!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you didnt read about the objections from russia... after which the T-80UD recieved the systems as t-84 had.. i.e Turret,gun,engine,FCS etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Do share the "chinese subsystems" tht AK uses..
> 
> 
> Lol under license...  50 more will be delivered this year making it to around 600 tanks... and its only 50 bcoz AK-II will become the backbone of our armour not AK-I.



A comparative study performed by the Peruvian Army Technical Group rejected the Al-Khalid after it determined that the Russian T-90S was better suited for areas of their country. You guys cant even penetrate as much armor as a tow 2 missile.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SPFG said:


> A comparative study performed by the Peruvian Army Technical Group rejected the Al-Khalid after it determined that the Russian T-90S was better suited for areas of their country. You guys cant even penetrate as much armor as a tow 2 missile.



Peruvian army ordered VT1A mbt not Al Khalid.. not even Mbt-2000!... and the reason you stated is that it was not suited for their areas... while morocco ordered 150 which beat T-90:

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...moHIBQ&usg=AFQjCNFv0ePcH_hhSySzvRSuPVrPA1m48w

As for armour go through the AK info pool to get enlightened!


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## AUSTERLITZ

niaza-550 mm is insufficient against modern armour.Composite welded turret armour with era will require far heavier penetration.Main reason PA went for t-80ud is the russian DU rounds are better.
For the matter of fact current arjun APFSDS round is also poor.But t-90 DU/tungsten round has better penetration like t-80ud.


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They dont just make 2 trucks .... they make several trucks.. ... kiddo..and they also make buses!



Smart guy just show me specifications, or just live in fancy world that you do this and that , i proved you country make discarded engines. 

Check yourself , your trucks you make based on Euro 1 Engines  

Show me you make Euro 4 engines, if you find any 




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Maybe you didnt read about the objections from russia... after which the T-80UD recieved the systems as t-84 had.. i.e Turret,gun,engine,FCS etc etc.



Check the manufactures website , T-84 itself enter into service in UKraine in 2001 , when you got the last delivery of T-80 in 2001.  

May be you are more advance get tanks before they make it.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do share the "chinese subsystems" tht AK uses..
> 
> 
> Lol under license...  50 more will be delivered this year making it to around 600 tanks... and its only 50 bcoz AK-II will become the backbone of our armour not AK-I.



Well buddy i think you dont know anything about your country and defence system at all.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Smart guy just show me specifications, or just live in fancy world that you do this and that , i proved you country make discarded engines.
> 
> Check yourself , your trucks you make based on Euro 1 Engines
> Show me you make Euro 4 engines, if you find any



Google it!




> Check the manufactures website , T-84 itself enter into service in UKraine in 2001 , when you got the last delivery of T-80 in 2001.




We got T-80UDs in 2002...


russian T-80:













May be you are more advance get tanks before they make it.

Ukrainian T-84:






Pakistan operated T-80UD:













> Well buddy i think you dont know anything about your country and defence system at all.



Lol.. i dare you kid... tell me which system used in AK is chinese?!


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## Mech

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol.. i dare you kid... tell me which system used in AK is chinese?!



Evrything

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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Google it!



I dont find it either though goole, may u PAK engine using Invisible technology,  If you find it though google then let me know. If your Manufactures makes only EURO-1 Engine which is standard of PAK engine market. 




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We got T-80UDs in 2002...
> 
> 
> russian T-80:



Buddy you stuck in time wrap,



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> May be you are more advance get tanks before they make it.
> 
> 
> Ukrainian T-84:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan operated T-80UD:



T-84 uses Gas turbine engine? and T-80UD used Dessel Engine. 

Do Pak uses Gas Turbine or Diesel engines? 
T80 Tank Characteristics




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol.. i dare you kid... tell me which system used in AK is chinese?!



Army Guide - Al-Khalid, Main battle tank
The first prototype of MBT 2000, which is also referred to as the Al-Khalid or P-90, was completed on schedule in June 1991, with trials being carried out in 1992.

It is expected that initially 65 to 70 per cent of the key components will be made in Pakistan, *20 to 25 per cent will be supplied by China and the remainder will come from other countries*

I think everyone knows more then your itself. 

*Show article then just writing that you buy T-84 not T-80UD.*

Check this , wakeup from your dreams. read the forum and your own forum. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/20566-main-battle-tank-t-84-a.html

*This is Arjun Article, We can take this to PAK defence Article about AK and T80UD*

Back to Arjun .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> I dont find it either though goole, may u PAK engine using Invisible technology,  If you find it though google then let me know. If your Manufactures makes only EURO-1 Engine which is *standard *of PAK engine market.



Good for you.




> Buddy you stuck in time wrap,



Te visual difference is enough for a sane man to recognise.



> Showing you the difference between a T-80 and a T-80UD.
> 
> T-84 uses Gas turbine engine? and T-80UD used Dessel Engine.



Lol.. even the russian T-80 uses gas turbine engine.. 


> Do Pak uses Gas Turbine or Diesel engines?
> T80 Tank Characteristics



Not it uses 6TD diesel engine built by Ukraine.... while other systems like turret,gun,remote controlled,FCS,armour etc are similiar to T-84 ... While we did upgraded it with thales,catherine and sagem systems aswell.


[


> url=http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product41.html]Army Guide - Al-Khalid, Main battle tank[/url]
> The first prototype of MBT 2000, which is also referred to as the Al-Khalid or P-90, was completed on schedule in June 1991, with trials being carried out in 1992.
> 
> It is expected that initially 65 to 70 per cent of the key components will be made in Pakistan, *20 to 25 per cent will be supplied by China and the remainder will come from other countries*
> 
> I think everyone knows more then your itself.



The initial prototypes did have chinese systems which were later ruled out in favour of indigenous and european components... again... i dare you to point out 1 chinese system in AK!



> Show article then just writing that you buy T-84 not T-89UD.



We ordered t-80s which russia didnt allow... but Ukraine kept its promise and developed T-80UD using tech from T-84.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Just for the record,mighty t-80 performed terribly in chechnya.Around a hundred were destroyed and its gas guzzling engine created logistics nightmare,russian ministry of defence was so furious it cancelled ALL gas turbine engine tank projects.In the second chechen war and georgian war no t-80 were used for fear of similar losses.T-90 was used in second chechen war and none were lost.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Just for the record,mighty t-80 performed terribly in chechnya.Around a hundred were destroyed and its gas guzzling engine created logistics nightmare,russian ministry of defence was so furious it cancelled ALL gas turbine engine tank projects.In the second chechen war and georgian war no t-80 were used for fear of similar losses.T-90 was used in second chechen war and none were lost.



T-80UD doesnt use gas turbines,nor armour,nor the turret and not even the features of soviet t-80 whose production ended in 1991...


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## AUSTERLITZ

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-80UD doesnt use gas turbines,nor armour,nor the turret and not even the features of soviet t-80 whose production ended in 1991...



T-80UD is ukrainian upgrade of t-80u that was in chechnya.But yes it made good on weaknesses,replacing gas turbine engine and new ERA.But apart from that its same.It has same features and same turret as t-80u.
Still t-80u is most potent tank in PA arsenal equipping frontline armoured div.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

AUSTERLITZ said:


> T-80UD is ukrainian upgrade of t-80u that was in chechnya.But yes it made good on weaknesses,replacing gas turbine engine and new ERA.But apart from that its same.It has same features and same turret as t-80u.
> Still t-80u is most potent tank in PA arsenal equipping frontline armoured div.



Your wrong it uses the same welded turret as the T-84,same gun as T-84,same composite armour etc along with other upgrades ... as for most potent tank... no AK is the most potent tank in our inventory... there is a reason why the purchase of around 500 T-84s was cancelled in favour of AKs.


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Your wrong it uses the same welded turret as the T-84,same gun as T-84,same composite armour etc along with other upgrades ... as for most potent tank... no AK is the most potent tank in our inventory... there is a reason why the purchase of around 500 T-84s was cancelled in favour of AKs.



I think most foreign armour analysts agree t-80ud is pakistan's most potent tank.ak deal was done as it was cheaper and indigenisation.
Yes i checked and specially built pakistani t-80ud had new turret which normal t-80ud don't have.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I think most foreign armour analysts agree t-80ud is pakistan's most potent tank.ak deal was done as it was cheaper and indigenisation.
> Yes i checked and specially built pakistani t-80ud had new turret which normal t-80ud don't have.



LOL... While Pak army the operator of AK considers it much better and potent than T-80UD...as for cheap... the chinese version of mbt-2000 was sold for almost 4 million dollar... so guess how much a AK with Pakistan and european system will cost! as for your analysts do post a source.. and do enlighten us how T-80UD is superior to AK.


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## Alfa-Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Good for you.
> 
> 
> Te visual difference is enough for a sane man to recognise.



Visual difference is nothing, actual difference is what made component /internal design. You never showed me any article or post , either you are fool or whole world is food, including PAK army.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol.. even the russian T-80 uses gas turbine engine..
> 
> 
> Not it uses 6TD diesel engine built by Ukraine.... while other systems like turret,gun,remote controlled,FCS,armour etc are similiar to T-84 ... While we did upgraded it with thales,catherine and sagem systems as well.


Its is world wide know that Ukraine develop its own turret while supplied with to pak few old and plus new turret.
you didn't upgraded or not available ? which is standard feature of T-84's


IN whole of your arhumrnt you never provided anything. 

But i agree your PAK tank can reach to MARS/Moon also , just by flying (as they are capable). i just checked but i dont have any supporting articale just like you dont have. 

Just like EURO 4 Engines which you cant make in PAK and trying to say EURO 1 = Euro 4 and PAK manufactures it. )


----------



## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> by makin it heavier?



license manufacture??



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Google HINOPAK and ADAM...and yasoob.



Hino is a japanese company,ADAM assembles chinese trucks (now defunct)and Yasoob project was stopped due to corruption with 300 units produced...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Visual difference is nothing, actual difference is what made component /internal design. You never showed me any article or post , either you are fool or whole world is *food*, including PAK army.


 
Dude stop embarassing yourself... you cant even spell fool and your talking about mbts~



> Its is world wide know that Ukraine develop its own turret while supplied with to pak few old and plus new turret.
> you didn't upgraded or not available ? which is standard feature of T-84's



Initial 20 tanks shared similiar features as the soviet t-80u... which were later sent to Ukraine and upgraded! as for standard feature use your god given "eyes" and see my previous posts!


> IN whole of your arhumrnt you never provided anything.
> 
> But i agree your PAK tank can reach to MARS/Moon also , just by flying (as they are capable). i just checked but i dont have any supporting articale just like you dont have.
> 
> Just like EURO 4 Engines which you cant make in PAK and trying to say EURO 1 = Euro 4 and PAK manufactures it. )



Whatever kid.



gslv mk3 said:


> license manufacture??



Yeah i know most of the arjun parts are imported from foriegn countries.



> Hino is a japanese company,ADAM assembles chinese trucks (now defunct)and Yasoob project was stopped due to corruption with 300 units produced...



HinoPak is a JV! and ADAM didnt make chinese trucks.. as for yasoob 500+ of them are in service.


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## MilSpec

Why is this thread being littered with off topic non sense... members who want to harp on pakistani tanks please go and post it in appropriate thread. @WebMaster, @nuclearpak, @Aeronaut, @ANTIBODY please clean up the thread


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## Jango

*This is the last warning, if anybody wants to discuss tanks against each other from a purely technical POV, make a new thread. 

Any more off topics and a straight on infraction.*

This thread is only for Arjun MBT.

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## DARKY

Arjun MK2 3D model art.









nuclearpak said:


> *This is the last warning, if anybody wants to discuss tanks against each other from a purely technical POV, make a new thread.
> 
> Any more off topics and a straight on infraction.*
> 
> This thread is only for Arjun MBT.



Why was my informative post on the reality of Pakistani T-80UD deleted... and BS ranting and other jingo posts of fellow Pakistani member about T-80UD left as it is ?


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## Jango

DARKY said:


> Arjun MK2 3D model art.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why was my informative post on the reality of Pakistani T-80UD deleted... and BS ranting and other jingo posts of fellow Pakistani member about T-80UD left as it is ?



I deleted the last few posts so there is a break b/w the trolls and now.

As you said, it was a T-80U post, if you want to discuss T-80, do that in the relevant thread please. 

I can't go and delete the last 4 pages...hum bhi insaan hain bhai.

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## Storm Force

LETS LEAVE OUT 3O YEAR OLD RUSSIAN TANKS 

AND STICK THE MODERN HEAVEY INDIAN BEAUTY 

DIFFRENT LEAGUE COMPLETELY


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## rahul_rao

nuclearpak said:


> *This is the last warning, if anybody wants to discuss tanks against each other from a purely technical POV, make a new thread.
> 
> Any more off topics and a straight on infraction.*
> 
> This thread is only for Arjun MBT.


pasand aaya tera style mujhe


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