# PAF participates in "Red Flag" and "Green Flag"



## Kompromat

*Hello all:

I am delighted to Disclose that Pakistan Air Force is Participating in Red Flag 2010 and F-16 Block 52+ will participate and Practice Mid air Refuling with United States Air Force this year. *

*PAF&#8217;s &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217;
By S.m. Hali | Published: March 17, 2010*




The PAF&#8217;s five yearly &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217; has commenced to test its professional skills, capabilities and combat readiness. The countrywide exercise, which will last for nearly 60 days, will also be dovetailed with the Pakistan army&#8217;s exercise named Azm-e-Nau III and Naval operations to make it a tri-service test of mettle under realistic conditions. PAF is a support arm for the other two services, in addition to defending the aerial frontiers of Pakistan. The military exercises are organised as paper war games that may entail heavy expenses but provide authentic lessons, thus they are dispersed over a few years. &#8216;High Mark 2010&#8217; comes in the backdrop of a clear threat to Pakistan, both externally and internally.

Undoubtedly, the regional environment is fraught with multiple threats. Although the Pakistani armed forces have been engaged in a war against terror for the last eight years, the counterinsurgency operations gained momentum in the last two years. Combined with the threat from extremists, our eastern neighbour has evolved a Pakistan specific new war doctrine named &#8216;Cold Start&#8217;, which it is in the process of testing and adapting for all the three services. The threat has compounded in the post-Mumbai attacks scenario, where Indian hawks have been propounding the conduct of surgical strikes against selected targets within Pakistan.* Hence, Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear assets have been under a threat from external forces, who would like to deprive the country of its strategic weapon under one pretext or the other. *

Simultaneously, terror organisations are keen to steal or hijack a nuke or two from Pakistan&#8217;s arsenal and destabilise the world by posing a nuclear threat. Whereas *Pakistan&#8217;s Nuclear Command Authority&#8217;s efficacy and effectiveness is beyond the shadow of doubt, and its nuclear assets have been stored, deployed and dispersed in a manner where the most sophisticated countries have not been able to get even an inkling of their location, what to talk of any rag-tag militia.*

Yet, cognisance must be taken of the various war games conducted by the west and India in an effort to neutralise Pakistan&#8217;s nukes.


In this backdrop, &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217; is a formidable task for its planners as well as executants. To test its concepts and conduct of operations of the PAF personnel for a broad spectrum of conflict, the force has been divided into the traditional Blueland and Foxland with a realistic force ratio to obtain the best optimised and rational results. For the first time, PAF is conducting the exercise with a major reliance on IT (Information Technology) at the command, as well as field level, to provide real time inputs of communication, man, machine, weapons and employment of effort tactics.

The PAF&#8217;s recent successful interaction with the army&#8217;s counterinsurgency operations in Swat and South Waziristan, the lessons learnt from internal security operations, diverse terrain and time sensitive targeting and supporting Pak army&#8217;s ridge line operations must have enhanced its orchestration methodology for joint operations. The exposure of PAF to the high &#8216;tempo ops&#8217; and least collateral damage must have raised the level of confidence of its air and ground crew. The multiple threat scenarios with near realistic exposure are likely to pay rich dividends to the force which has always operated under the handicap of a numerically superior adversary.

The freshly acquired and operationally inducted squadron of JF-17 Thunder, the Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW & CS), the air-to-air refueller, use of advanced UAVs and the more sophisticated precision guided munitions added to the PAF&#8217;s inventory will all come into play in both offensive and defensive roles. Operating under the enhanced threat of electronic warfare and employing electronic countermeasure techniques through various platforms must be definitely receiving due consideration. Therefore, the Indian threat of surgical strikes have already been shrugged off by Pakistani defence planners because PAF possesses the capability to strike back with extreme vigour, and inflict heavy damage to the aggressor, in a matter of hours provided there is political will. The enemy will have to think hard before undertaking a foolhardy operation like the one the Indian air chief was rearing to undertake in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks in 2008. 

Indeed, defending its high value assets and vulnerable points would any way form an essential part of PAF&#8217;s &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217;. A number of fire power demonstrations have been planned by PAF during the current high level war games since the force plans to expend all the weapons in the PAF&#8217;s inventory and test their delivery, efficacy, accuracy and effectiveness under realistic conditions. Operations from forward bases, as well as activating road runways by utilising portions of the Motorway, to practise take offs and landings from selected locations would add to the options available to the executants of the &#8216;exercise&#8217;. 

In the recent past, PAF has had a rich exposure of exercising with other air forces, in addition to the Pakistan army and navy. Last month PAF concluded a local exercise &#8216;Saffron Bandit&#8217;, it participated in &#8216;Bright Star 2009&#8217; in organised Egypt, &#8216;Anatolian Eagle 2009&#8217; in Turkey, joint exercise with UAE and following &#8216;High Mark 2010&#8217;,* it will participate in the US exercises &#8216;Red Flag and Green Flag&#8217;. *&#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217; is expected to provide valuable lessons from the full spectrum of air operations that, after evaluation and validation, are likely to improve PAF&#8217;s weapon employment techniques and enable it to implement fresh tactics to meet the challenges facing Pakistan with renewed vigour. An informal chat with the current Air Chief, ACM Rao Qamar Suleman, revealed his thoughts that he is proud of the air force he inherited from his predecessors and is keen to take it to greater heights of glory in guarding the aerial frontiers of Pakistan. Regarding the objective of &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217;, he stated that it is achieving &#8220;peace with honour&#8221; qualifying that &#8220;peace comes with strength.&#8221; 
Certainly, strength must be tested in times of peace to deter any would-be aggressor. 
The writer is a political and defence analyst.

Link: PAF&#8217;s &#8216;Exercise High Mark 2010&#8217; | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Regards:

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## MAB

Thanks for providing the good news!


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## Kompromat

Its sweet as man , This will boost PAF's AIR to AIR combat capability in modren Threat environment.


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## Comet

This is good news. We needed such training after the induction of Block 52.


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## Stealth

They invited remember "NOT FREE" Who will pay for this expensive excercise ????


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## TOPGUN

F-16's refueling umm sounds good.. we need a refuelier for our f-16's atleast 2

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## maverick1977

The aircraft in picture is block 52+. looks beautiful


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## Kompromat

It will add into our A2A Combat capability and we would have a chance to adopt latest trends in aireal warfare.


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## IceCold

Is India also participating in the Red Flag this year? If yes what are the odds of competing against each other at Red Flag, though it seems highly unlikely that PAF and IAF would come head to head.


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## satishkumarcsc

Well Red Flag is a costly affair for us and cant be done every year. Might be next year who knows. Definitely not this year. This year it is Cope India 2010. We cant spend $10 million every year for those exercises.

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## niaz

In my opinion, participation in the such exercises should be even more. Remeber " More you sweat in peace, less you will bleed in war"

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## DANGER-ZONE

its would be 4th time that USAF refuel our f16 in exercise.
even we can understand that what USA want us to do.
we better take it serious and its better that we install rest of 200 jf17 same refueling system as f16s.cuz boom deliver more fuel as compare to refueling probe.


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## Stealth

Good Game i love it i love it American strategy makers and think tanks !!!!

Man i lov to learn how to fool world with juicy games!!!!

lol First hey offering boom boom 126 MMRCA to India but when they feels that Indian eyez on European US agree to sell weapons to Pakistan (old but agreed) Why  actually (hint) pressure India that baby go for mine otherwise we will sell State of the Art to Pakistan if you are not going for Boieng or lockheed martin toyz. Thats why US invited PAF for "Redflag" agree to sell more F16 and upcoming event what i feel if PAF will show interest in KC 135 might be US agreed! possibility of KC 135 because from last few months and past few years i have seen few pictures and also heared lots of news related US refueling PAF fighters and our pilots got trained @ KC 135! 

Good Strategy US! (they knows how to sell her weapons)

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## Kompromat

Who else is participating this year ?


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## mshoaib61

*Red Flag Schedule*


*RED FLAG 10-3	02/22/2010 - 03/05/2010* 
Dyess AFB, TX
RAF Lakenheath, United Kingdom (U.S. unit)
Australia RAAF
MCAS Beaufort, SC
RAF Cottesmore, U.K.

*RED FLAG 10-2	01/25/2010 - 02/05/2010* 

RAF Lakenheath, England (U.S. unit)
Homestead AFB, FL
Fort Worth JRB, TX
MCAS Beaufort, SC
RAF Cottesmore, U.K.

*RED FLAG 10-4	07/19/2010 - 07/30/2010* 

Pakistan might be in this upcoming schdule.!!


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## Stealth

India also invited ?? i think "NO" right ? but good to see if IAF Su30MKI infront PAF F16 blk52 

@Imran khan

ke khyaal way tera lol fir dekheengay kina SU30 MKI hawa wich urda way   gustaki maaf par ghalate say b lockon hogaya na thay India ke awan kuch karay na karay jo India kay media nay IAF ka 1 sec may pori IAF ko jo shotdown karna haina channels pe kay hamko sharam ajani hey kaash ham lockon na kartay tu atleast IAF eek airforce ke izat tu bachi rahte

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## mshoaib61

Stealth said:


> India also invited ?? i think "NO" right ? but good to see if IAF Su30MKI infront PAF F16 blk52
> 
> @Imran khan
> 
> ke khyaal way tera lol fir dekheengay kina SU30 MKI hawa wich urda way   gustaki maaf par ghalate say b lockon hogaya na thay India ke awan kuch karay na karay jo India kay media nay IAF ka haal karna haina uda Allah he hafiz lol



paf ke f16 block 52 ka dar ki waja se iaf ke sukhoi red flag exercise ma hisa hi nahi le rahee. yahan se sukhoi ki hesiyat pata lag jati ha

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## Stealth

mshoaib61 said:


> paf ka f16 block 52 ka dar ki waja se iaf ka sukhoi red flag exercise ma hisa hi nahi le rahee. yahan se sukhoi ki hesiyat pata lag jati ha



chup gandi aur sachyaan galaaaan nahi karday sab day samnay lol 

"tum kise ke asi baat par parda daloo Allah qayamat kay rooz tumhare buri chezoon par parda dalayga" 

Kal tu dil say duwa nikal rahe the kaash Allah hamko Americi policy makers aur thinktanks jesa demaag day imaan say hamnay china beech daalna hey lol

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## mshoaib61

Stealth said:


> chup gandi aur sachyaan galaaaan nahi karday sab day samnay lol
> 
> "tum kise ke asi baat par parda daloo Allah qayamat kay rooz tumhare buri chezoon par parda dalayga"




parde dal dal kee 1965 se pori koom sawab hi hasil kar rahi ha.. ab socha torha farishtee rest kar lein. swab wali diary bhi ab to full ho gai ha ..

aur hamesha parde hi dalte rahien. then samnee wale over confident ho jate ha aur ukaat se bahar nikal jate ha. islya kabhi kabhi ukat dosron ki yad karwate rehna chaiyee

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## Stealth

mujhe tu Dar hey mujhe apnay piloits par baroosa nahi aween Xcersice may 2 3 Americi jahaaz pheenk idya tu samajloo ye Block 52 sirf America may uranay kiliye he wahan pilot bheejna pareengay kyoonkay unhonay pakistan nahi anay denay lol

Wesay guess what its also a strategy to know other pilots especially PAF. Look if PAF pilots perform superb game in red flag excersise its death game for PAF as well about (India and Isreal lobby) about how much PAF pilots are capable. Red flag excersise IMO its major objective to know about other countries pilots as well!


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## mshoaib61

Stealth said:


> mujhe tu Dar hey mujhe apnay piloits par baroosa nahi aween Xcersice may 2 3 Americi jahaaz pheenk idya tu samajloo ye Block 52 sirf America may uranay kiliye he wahan pilot bheejna pareengay kyoonkay unhonay pakistan nahi anay denay lol
> 
> Wesay guess what its also a strategy to know other pilots especially PAF. Look if PAF pilots perform superb game in red flag excersise its death game for PAF as well about (India and Isreal lobby) about how much PAF pilots are capable. Red flag excersise IMO its major objective to know about other countries pilots as well!



Alllah kare paf pilots perform too well in the exercise Ameeen  and way beyond american expectations
warna indians ki tarh hamari bihi youtube pay clasiffied briefing ki video na a jae lol

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## gambit

mshoaib61 said:


> Alllah kare paf pilots perform too well in the exercise Ameeen  and *way beyond american expectations*
> warna indians ki tarh hamari bihi youtube pay clasiffied briefing ki video na a jae lol


Keep in mind that our expectations changes according to countries participate. Or can change.

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## mshoaib61

gambit said:


> Keep in mind that our expectations changes according to countries participate. Or can change.



thats why its better to expect more than expecting less and underestimating the enemy. because we never knows what surprises and new tactics we will see and face during war and exercises as well


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## Stealth

tll then MMRCA choose either PAF perform bad or good US already change its strategy for Pakistan before they are provide soo much support to India (for just choose American military hardware but when American feels India gain much advantage of US support but havnt choose any big military deal xpect global master and C130 (for happy US) but main MMRCA deal indian eyez on European or Russian side US change its strategy for Pakistan. Now support Pakistan in minimum military hardware to just put pressure and show that if you are not choose American weapons we will sell to Pakistan baby becuase US knows India always cry and big cry on Pakistan military deals. This strategy is the last strategy to counter India policy if this will not sucuess i bet US will agree to sell more weapons and fullfill other Pakistan's demands. Inside strategy they also offered Redflag Excersise. Now let see what will happen but now US strategy almost changed for Pakistan. If India will delay this MMRCA tll 2013- 2015 i bet tll more Military hardware coming towards us. India forgot US is big daddy of such games which India is trying to play.

Anyway about Redflag. I bet either we perform good or bad we will never see such (bad comments/briefing etc against PAF pilots) because such thing will provide extra support to India which US not interested to give atleast right now. 

Feel the burning of tri-angle!

IMO


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## gambit

mshoaib61 said:


> thats why its better to expect more than expecting less and underestimating the enemy. because we never knows what surprises and new tactics we will see and face during war and exercises as well


I am going to give you a dose of reality...

The Pakistani Air Force is entering a training situation where the PAF has no influence, let alone control. We control the:

- Environment,
- Training,
- Criteria,
- Schedule and
- Standards.

The PAF is flying aircrafts that we designed and exported.

Put on your critical thinking cap. We can flunk all US flyers and aced all PAF ones. But in the end, who is going to learn more about whom?

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## Stealth

Any US-PK military professional have idea about US PK KC135 deal possible or already on paperwork ?? any idea about that ?


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## MZUBAIR

Join said:


> Dont respond buddy, let them drive there dreams , If they say F-16 are better than Sukhoi 30 MKI, let it be, whats our proble, well They are the only ones who say or think so....




Is there any one else (other country), except u (India) who says that MKI is batter then F-16 or Eurofighter or J-10B.



> And About the red flag 2010, Why waste money when you have Cope India 2010....
> 
> And Have you seen any american praising the Russian products , they would surely criticize it



Yes, its wastage of money for u coz MKI and ur pilots had very poor performance in the last game.

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## Kompromat

gambit said:


> Keep in mind that our expectations changes according to countries participate. Or can change.



one of the Aims of inviting India at red flag was to Eveluate the Capabilities of MKI and later on it was critisized for low performance that indians will spill more information about the AC to prove it a potent jet !

Am i right ?

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## Join

MZUBAIR said:


> Is there any one else (other country), except u (India) who says that MKI is batter then F-16 or Eurofighter or J-10B.
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, its wastage of money for u coz MKI and ur pilots had very poor performance in the last game*.



Says who?? Colonel Terrence Fornof who flew F-15 who was criticizing MKI??? Man come on I believe What My Pilots had to say, Not the one from a country whom No one in this world trusts Thats USA...

He was criticizing Russian product, USA always do.... They were out performed by the IAF, they just couldnt find anyway to release the pressure.... he was telling about the Drawbacks in MKI not the Skill Of IAF, but he later on apologized for his ranting......

I dont need to say this to anyone or Neither do I have to prove what the Chief of the IAF said.....


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## gambit

Black Blood said:


> one of the Aims of inviting India at red flag was to Eveluate the Capabilities of MKI and later on it was critisized for low performance that indians will spill more information about the AC to prove it a potent jet !
> 
> Am i right ?


Read post #25 on previous page. Then take sometime and think about it. Think about how the US goes out of our way to engage other air forces in training and why.

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## Kompromat

gambit said:


> Read post #25 on previous page. Then take sometime and think about it. Think about how the US goes out of our way to engage other air forces in training and why.



Yes i know what you have just said in that post and i am not wrong either am i 

You guys are smart i must accept


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## gambit

Stealth said:


> oh lol can you explain which WAR soo called WAR american (USAF) fight with same power Airfroce ??


Yeah...Ours. The US Army have its own air force. The US Navy have its own air force. The US Marines have its own air force.



Stealth said:


> how you rate US pilots on top even US not fight against any country who have Airforce or active airforce who perform against US in war???


How could anyone not? We fought in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. We held the Soviets at bay for over fifty years. You think all those experience count for nothing? Of course you do. That is indicative of your shortsightedness. Wiser Pakistanis should hope your thinking does not exist among the Pakistani military leadership.

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## Stealth

gambit said:


> Yeah...Ours. The US Army have its own air force. The US Navy have its own air force. The US Marines have its own air force.
> 
> 
> How could anyone not? We fought in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. We held the Soviets at bay for over fifty years. You think all those experience count for nothing? Of course you do. That is indicative of your shortsightedness. Wiser Pakistanis should hope your thinking does not exist among the Pakistani military leadership.



thats called experince i am talking about "Rating". Rating is some thing different. Can you give me single example of your Airforce "from last 30 - 40 years" who fight against same Airforce ??? either its Navy USAF etc ???

bombing on innocent civilians and called yourself Super duper Airforce and Army ??? thats you reali credibilty you even not stand against Taliban whom dont even have anti missile, Tank and Airforce and your are talking about Wars ??? you lost in Vietnam, already suffering from deadly war iraq and now in afghanistan Thats what your Real example of US WARS "Thats your performance".

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## IceCold

gambit said:


> I am going to give you a dose of reality...
> 
> The Pakistani Air Force is entering a training situation where the PAF has no influence, let alone control. We control the:
> 
> - Environment,
> - Training,
> - Criteria,
> - Schedule and
> - Standards.
> 
> The PAF is flying aircrafts that we designed and exported.
> 
> Put on your critical thinking cap. We can flunk all US flyers and aced all PAF ones. But in the end, who is going to learn more about whom?



Very true indeed however other airforces that participate in red flag must also be aware of this staged scenario and hence would adopt accordingly to maximize the outcome to their advantage as well.

Also does the US always act as an aggressor in such exercises or is it vice-verse.


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## Indestructible

Red Flag is analogized as a complete Digital War Game which relies heavily on technology. Pakistan has just received its new F16s. Isn't it too soon to to go with a plane which is currently being adapted? Or the technological differences are not too big in Blk52 and previous variants?


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## Stealth

Indestructible said:


> Red Flag is analogized as a complete Digital War Game which relies heavily on technology. Pakistan has just received its new F16s. Isn't it too soon to to go with a plane which is currently being adapted? Or the technological differences are not too big in Blk52 and previous variants?



You think PAF pilots will fly Blk 52 first time ???? they are flying F16 Blk52 from last 5 - 7 years  

PAF pilots also fly UAE F16s blk 52

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## gambit

IceCold said:


> Very true indeed however other airforces that participate in red flag must also be aware of this staged scenario and hence would adopt accordingly to maximize the outcome to their advantage as well.


Whatever tactics any air force wish to employ at Red Flag, those tactics must still remain within the rules for many reasons, safety is a major one. Other rules such as regeneration are allowed one day but disallowed the next. It depends on the scenario for that day.



IceCold said:


> Also does the US always act as an aggressor in such exercises or is it vice-verse.


Not always. But we do have a dedicated Aggressor squadron at Nellis. Regeneration is always allowed for the Aggressor pilots. Defenders must be under pressure of limited resources.

The point I am trying to make here is that when an air force is visiting and playing by our rules in our sandbox, we have no problems playing the loser if it suit our purposes. We did it many times to stroke the egos of the Saudi man-childs. It is the job of the instructor to lose, despite how the movie 'Top Gun' portrayed pilots. He will coach the student pilot until the student is proficient with a maneuver or tactic and win an engagement. We will observe and record the responses of the visitors from scenario to scenario. How do they react when they lose and when they win. How do they response to constructive criticisms. It says much about their psychology. Do not believe for one moment that any publicly available Youtube-ed videos about Red Flag is all that there is about this annual event. I have been to several Red Flags and behind closed doors briefings to know better.

Considering the comments of some of the participants in this discussion, if they are the visiting pilots carrying with them to Nellis the attitudes they exhibit here, we have no problem 'losing' to them. We will even make up an official looking award certificate/commendation to their 'exceptional airmanship'.

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## harrymohan

Jeez, why comparing F-16 with SU-30 MKI, Mig-29 is comparable with F-16 as far as last yr red flag is concerned, Indian Su-30 MKI datalink which is responsible for communicating with other Nato aircrafts was totally incompatible which means to know which is friendly or non-friendly SU-30's had to ask from command center which means delays and hence getting locked on by enemy planes on red flag and same could be said abt friendly kills that SU 30 made.
In real war scenario SU 30 doesn't need to communicate using Nato understandable datalinks. I hope this helps!


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## EagleEyes

Stop replying to off topic & bullshit posts. So we are now at *RED FLAG*.

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## Stealth

1. How many days this excersise continue and which kind of objectives for Green team and red team ? Can anyone explain. 

2. How many countries will participate in this redflag ?


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## Irfan Baloch

gambit said:


> Yeah...Ours. The US Army have its own air force. The US Navy have its own air force. The US Marines have its own air force.
> 
> 
> How could anyone not? We fought in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. We held the Soviets at bay for over fifty years. You think all those experience count for nothing? Of course you do. That is indicative of your shortsightedness. Wiser Pakistanis should hope your thinking does not exist among the Pakistani military leadership.




I agree with you. sadly the stupidity doesnt discriminate among race, religion or country. its found in abundance across the board

By the way I have trolling. Wonder why every topic here has to turn into India-Pakistan b*tching? I think on the bright side it gives you a bit of comic relief.

Will we ( India / Pakistan) grow up? Who knows we live in hope dont we


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## mshoaib61

Stealth said:


> 1. How many days this excersise continue and which kind of objectives for Green team and red team ? Can anyone explain.
> 
> 2. How many countries will participate in this redflag ?



There are two teams, the good guys (Blue Team) and the aggressors (Red Team). The Red Team is composed of Nellis AFB-based pilots specially trained for this purpose, flying F-15 and F-16 aircraft. The Blue Team is composed of the various guest "players" in their native aircraft.

The Red Team sets up at the west side of the Nellis Ranges, in the Tolicha Peak area between Tonopah and Beatty. The Blue Team sets up in the east, over Delamar Dry Lake east of Alamo, which the pilots call Texas Lake because of its shape. The objective for the Blue Team is to destroy targets in Ranges 74 thru 76, southeast of the Tonopah Test Range. The Red Team of course try their best to keep them from getting there. Both teams usually meet in the airspace west and north of Rachel, where they engage in very realistic dogfights.

The exercise will continue from 07/19/2010 to 07/30/2010


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## gowthamraj

i personally love blk 52 that much of MKI

just some pics;


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## desiman

Black Blood said:


> one of the Aims of inviting India at red flag was to Eveluate the Capabilities of MKI and later on it was critisized for low performance that indians will spill more information about the AC to prove it a potent jet !
> 
> Am i right ?



ohh not again please, criticizing the IAF for things you have no idea about does not make the PAF better.


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## Imran Khan

chor yaar this year we go last year india and then india its US game


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## Aamir Hussain

Black Blood said:


> one of the Aims of inviting India at red flag was to Eveluate the Capabilities of MKI and later on it was critisized for low performance that indians will spill more information about the AC to prove it a potent jet !
> 
> Am i right ?



Or prove to India that it is about time they get Western Platforms!!!!


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## gambit

Stealth said:


> thats called experince i am talking about "Rating". Rating is some thing different. Can you give me single example of your Airforce "from last 30 - 40 years" who fight against same Airforce ??? either its Navy USAF etc ???
> 
> bombing on innocent civilians and called yourself Super duper Airforce and Army ??? thats you reali credibilty you even not stand against Taliban whom dont even have anti missile, Tank and Airforce and your are talking about Wars ??? you lost in Vietnam, already suffering from deadly war iraq and now in afghanistan Thats what your Real example of US WARS "Thats your performance".


This is why I do not take seriously your line of thinking...

When two warriors meet in combat, politics are among the least of their concerns. Battlefield victories lends credible support to political goals but the participants differs in their natures, skills and environments. For the victorious warrior, if his politicians failed to maximize his battlefield victory to an advantageous political outcome, in no way is political ineptitude indicative of the warrior's skills.

The Taliban is a ground, not air, force's problem. And who is intruding into whose territory? Air combat is still very much a one-against-one fight. A poorly trained and low flying hours pilot will not be able to lend any support to his political leadership. Why do you think generals can be relieved of his command? Certainly not for his profane language or lack of political fine manners. Generals are dismissed for failure to deliver results. At the battlefield level, ground or air, the loser die.

Like %99.999 of life's skills, flying is a perishable skill. Western pilots have the most opportunities to fly in diverse environments in far more hours. Red Flag is a rare opportunity for any air force to test whatever skills they learned to see how those skills would fare against known and unknown tactics in unfamiliar environments. Your attitude and failure to discriminate between political and battlefield goals are common among the MEastern visitors and the butt of many jokes among Western pilots.

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## RobbieS

^^^^^^^^^Uh oh...that's gonna hurt!


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## z9-ec

I believe the reason PAF chose to participate in red flag this year is to better understand and utilise the event to it's own benefit. With this, the PAF will have first hand experience and better understanding of network enabled warfare. Given that the ERIEYE is NATO compatible, the experience of datalinks, aerial refueling in a hostile environment and other components is invaluable. The purpose of the event is not to win a simulated battle but rather an understanding of the environment surrounding it.

IMO, it is worthy for us to participate in an event that will eventually help us better utilise our own assets in times of hostilities. I do agree with gambit, the stage is pretty much setup by the USAF. Nevertheless, it is paramount for PAF to get acquainted with components involved and fulfil tasks at hand as quickly as possible.

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## pak-yes

> . For the victorious warrior, if his politicians failed to maximize his battlefield victory to an advantageous political outcome, in no way is political ineptitude indicative of the warrior's skills.



Very well said.Unfortunately our Warriors have given lives but due to the lack of longsighted Leadership we are suffering.


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## gambit

z9-ec said:


> I believe the reason PAF chose to participate in red flag this year is to better understand and utilise the event to it's own benefit. With this, the PAF will have first hand experience and better understanding of network enabled warfare. Given that the ERIEYE is NATO compatible, the experience of datalinks, aerial refueling in a hostile environment and other components is invaluable. The *purpose of the event is not to win a simulated battle but rather an understanding of the environment surrounding it.*
> 
> IMO, it is worthy for us to participate in an event that will eventually help us better utilise our own assets in times of hostilities. I do agree with gambit, *the stage is pretty much setup by the USAF. *Nevertheless, it is paramount for PAF to get acquainted with components involved and fulfil tasks at hand as quickly as possible.


Correct...

If you come to me with the attitude that because the USAF have never faced a comparable air adversary therefore we have little to contribute to your knowledge and current skills, I have no problems telling my pilots -- under the table -- to make your life easy, at Red Flag or anywhere else. Not too easy to make it too obvious. When you leave US, the world will know that a Pakistani pilot beat the Americans at their own game and on US soil at that. If an Indian pilot have a contrary attitude to yours, we have no problems beating this guy over and over again. But each time he lose, his defeat will be at a higher set of standards than his Pakistani predecessor.

Should the two air warriors meet, guess whose odds are better at victory?

This is applicable for ground crews as well. We have contests on whose ground crews are best at turn-around times, from reload to refuel. Sometimes we do it with full NBC gears. In the Nevada heat, you will lose valuable time and possibly contribute to your side's loss for that day. Imagine your commander dressing your crew down in front of your fellow countrymen for being a major contributor to the day's loss.

Arabian Aerospace - How competition created a 'winged brotherhood' in the desert


> Only seconds after hearing the &#8216;go&#8217; whistle, &#8220;Deuce&#8221; and &#8220;Smack&#8221; have boarded their aircraft and lit their powerful P&W F100-engines. *At the same time the mechanics perform the vital external checks to secure a safe and procedurally correct start-up and arming of the on-board aircraft systems.*
> 
> This highly professional ground-ballet, witnessed by some 100 international spectators, ends when the second of the two jets moves forward to abruptly stop a few seconds later. &#8220;Deuce&#8221; and &#8220;Smack&#8221; have just terminated the first part of the &#8216;Air-Air Scramble&#8217; competition event in the 2009 Falcon Air Meet, organised at the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) prime F-16 fighter base, located in the desert some 100 kilometres east of Amman.
> 
> *The stopwatch of the all-seeing referee &#8211; a pilot of USAF&#8217;s Colorado Air National Guard &#8211; will later reveal whether they outclassed their American and Jordanian opponents. *
> 
> Alongside the intense flying programme, the FAM *competition also tested the skills of maintenance and armament personnel by giving scores for individual sortie success.* The various nations had to compete in a missile loading competition, during which ground crew needed to install an inert AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM 120 AMRAAM on two of the aircraft (wingtip) hard points. Once more ground crew of the COANG supervised the competition and deducted vital points for incorrect hardware manipulations or safety hazards.



Sometimes an inspector will 'kill' off half of your crew and no regeneration allowed for that day, but the burden of meeting goals is still the same. Now what are you going to do with only half of your manpower?

Events like these are no places for political one-upmanships as exhibited by some here. Either you take it seriously as presented by the host country, and the US do provide the best environment and programs, or go home confident of your skills, whatever level they may be, that you can provide your political leaderships with the victories they need should the time come.

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## Kompromat

WebMaster said:


> Stop replying to off topic & bullshit posts. So we are now at *RED FLAG*.



*Thanks Webbie you are my Thread savior !*


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## mshoaib61

Does anyone knows that *PAF Eyrie* will participate in the upcoming red flag exercise or no.


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## Kompromat

mshoaib61 said:


> Does anyone knows that *PAF Eyrie* will participate in the upcoming red flag exercise or no.



I believe no because the US uses its own AWACS to Guide the Air Crafts am i Right Gambit ?


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## gambit

> mshoaib61 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone knows that *PAF Eyrie* will participate in the upcoming red flag exercise or no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Blood said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe no because the US uses its own AWACS to Guide the Air Crafts am i Right Gambit ?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

If the visitors have their own AWACS then their AWACS and ours can be on opposing sides. They can also work on their own mini exercises to share knowledge. But generally at Red Flag our AWACS are neutral, often more like safety monitor than active participant.

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## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree with you. sadly the stupidity doesnt discriminate among race, religion or country. its found in abundance across the board
> 
> By the way I have trolling. Wonder why every topic here has to turn into India-Pakistan b*tching? I think on the bright side it gives you a bit of comic relief.
> 
> Will we ( India / Pakistan) grow up? Who knows we live in hope dont we



Agree with you whole-heartedly. Think we are all a little too old to indulge in 'my daddy strongest'.http://www.defence.pk/forums/images/smilies/cute/cheers.gif


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## WAQAS119

mshoaib61 said:


> paf ke f16 block 52 ka dar ki waja se iaf ke sukhoi red flag exercise ma hisa hi nahi le rahee. yahan se sukhoi ki hesiyat pata lag jati ha



Last time they got embarrassed by USAF Pilots and F-16's..

This time they don't want to get embarrassed by PAF F-16's and PAF Pilots.


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## SekrutYakhni

Don't we need practice on new F16s before going to Red Flag?


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## Indestructible

saad445566 said:


> Don't we need practice on new F16s before going to Red Flag?



I have already asked the same question and I was informed that Pakistani Pilots have been flying UAE F16-Blk60 for last several years. So these planes aren't new for us. PAF is already at home with these birds


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## SekrutYakhni

Indestructible said:


> I have already asked the same question and I was informed that Pakistani Pilots have been flying UAE F16-Blk60 for last several years. So these planes aren't new for us. PAF is already at home with these birds



Ohh okay!
PAF is "chupa rustam"


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## blain2

Indestructible said:


> I have already asked the same question and I was informed that Pakistani Pilots have been flying UAE F16-Blk60 for last several years. So these planes aren't new for us. PAF is already at home with these birds



Its mostly hearsay.

Had this been the case, the PAF would not have had 8 or so pilots in the US undergoing conversion on blk-52s currently (they have been there for a few months now).

Lets try not to over-exaggerate own capabilities. Everybody has to learn and do so constantly. Every time gents here put out claims of PAF having everything under their belt, they are actually undermining the image of the PAF and setting themselves up for a disappointment.

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## Indestructible

blain2 said:


> Its mostly hearsay.
> 
> Had this been the case, the PAF would not have had 8 or so pilots in the US undergoing conversion on blk-52s currently (they have been there for a few months now).
> 
> Lets try not to over-exaggerate own capabilities. *Everybody has to learn and do so constantly. *Every time gents here put out claims of PAF having everything under their belt, they are actually undermining the image of the PAF and setting themselves up for a disappointment.



I agree! But PAF didn't make it public. Why would they? It is against the the terms UAE signed with USA. Heck! USA hasn't even provided all the source codes for F16s AESA radar. It is like a secret mission  There *are* credible rumors of PAF pilots flying UAE F16s.

Underestimating own capabilities is also not right. Our forces have the capability to repel any kind of aggression. It is always our pathetic leaders who disappoint us. Have faith bro


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## Creder

Indestructible said:


> I agree! But PAF didn't make it public. Why would they? It is against the the terms UAE signed with USA. Heck! USA hasn't even provided all the source codes for F16s AESA radar. It is like a secret mission  There *are* credible rumors of PAF pilots flying UAE F16s.
> 
> Underestimating own capabilities is also not right. Our forces have the capability to repel any kind of aggression. It is always our pathetic leaders who disappoint us. Have faith bro



I think you got his point, he has faith but he isnt blind to realities.


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## aboutimeee

blain2 said:


> Its mostly hearsay.
> 
> Had this been the case, the PAF would not have had 8 or so pilots in the US undergoing conversion on blk-52s currently (they have been there for a few months now).
> 
> Lets try not to over-exaggerate own capabilities. Everybody has to learn and do so constantly. Every time gents here put out claims of PAF having everything under their belt, they are actually undermining the image of the PAF and setting themselves up for a disappointment.



What pakistani fanboys also often forget is that PAF is not spending millions to go there and show whos the daddy but instead is going as humble students to learn from the daddy himself.

great posts gambit keep them coming

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## Creder

aboutimeee said:


> What pakistani fanboys also often forget is that PAF is not spending millions to go there and show whos the daddy but instead is going as humble students to learn from the daddy himself.
> 
> great posts gambit keep them coming



his name is blain2


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## blain2

Indestructible said:


> I agree! But PAF didn't make it public. Why would they? It is against the the terms UAE signed with USA. Heck! USA hasn't even provided all the source codes for F16s AESA radar. It is like a secret mission  There *are* credible rumors of PAF pilots flying UAE F16s.
> 
> Underestimating own capabilities is also not right. Our forces have the capability to repel any kind of aggression. It is always our pathetic leaders who disappoint us. Have faith bro



Yaar indestructible,

There are just as many (or perhaps more) Americans advising in the UAE as Pakistanis. If Pakistanis were flying the blk-60s, the Americans would have brought this up and secondly we would have known about it more openly.

Familiarization flights on a blk-60 is one thing, flying them regularly to maintain hours on the platform is an entirely different thing. If I am not mistaken, we have done the latter on the Mirage 2000s but not on the blk-60s. The UAEAF has enough local pilots who do the flying on these aircraft. They have been very generous in inviting PAF for bi-lateral and multi-lateral trainings for the past few years in which we have interacted closely with the blk-60s and that is the extent of our familiarization. Once we have blk-52 inducted and have built a pool of pilots who are trained on it, then there would be a possibility that if UAEAF ever wanted to (I do not see any specific reasons) have PAF fly their blk-60s, we would be able to do so quickly.

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## Indestructible

blain2 said:


> Yaar indestructible,
> 
> There are just as many (or perhaps more) Americans advising in the UAE as Pakistanis. If Pakistanis were flying the blk-60s, the Americans would have brought this up and secondly we would have known about it more openly.
> 
> Familiarization flights on a blk-60 is one thing, flying them regularly to maintain hours on the platform is an entirely different thing. If I am not mistaken, we have done the latter on the Mirage 2000s but not on the blk-60s. The UAEAF has enough local pilots who do the flying on these aircraft. They have been very generous in inviting PAF for bi-lateral and multi-lateral trainings for the past few years in which we have interacted closely with the blk-60s and that is the extent of our familiarization. Once we have blk-52 inducted and have built a pool of pilots who are trained on it, then there would be a possibility that if UAEAF ever wanted to (I do not see any specific reasons) have PAF fly their blk-60s, we would be able to do so quickly.



 Well....never though of that  You are *so* correct! So this brings up my question to top again....Why PAF is going to RED FLAG then? And how/which many planes they are taking with them?


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## Indestructible

I recently heard that PAF hasn't given any answer to US invitation to red flag. Any updates guys?


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## Kompromat

Indestructible said:


> I recently heard that PAF hasn't given any answer to US invitation to red flag. Any updates guys?



No updates or schedule as yet.


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## behram

As far to my knowledge and having talked to some fighter pilots, Red Flag is no mere serious exercise, its coordinated and thought-out. Its more of a social event instead.


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## Kompromat

^ Elaborate please


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## Super Falcon

usa will buy refuelers from europe and im sure their old refueler will be send to pakistan


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## gowthamraj

Stealth said:


> thats called experince i am talking about "Rating". Rating is some thing different. Can you give me single example of your Airforce "from last 30 - 40 years" who fight against same Airforce ??? either its Navy USAF etc ???
> 
> bombing on innocent civilians and called yourself Super duper Airforce and Army ??? thats you reali credibilty you even not stand against Taliban whom dont even have anti missile, Tank and Airforce and your are talking about Wars ??? you lost in Vietnam, already suffering from deadly war iraq and now in afghanistan Thats what your Real example of US WARS "Thats your performance".


Thats a ridiculous comment i seen from a elite member. Lol,what about PAF. Is their armaments,tactics,trainig are provided by who? For last 6 decades whose planes you flying?. Where you get training?is PAF not performed well agaist india and some extent to soviet and israel in the past?how that happend? Is this are false or you forget history? I eagerly waiting for your answers. . Thanks. .


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## behram

Black Blood said:


> ^ Elaborate please



Didn't get that, what that meant?


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## behram

Indestructible said:


> I agree! But PAF didn't make it public. Why would they? It is against the the terms UAE signed with USA. Heck! USA hasn't even provided all the source codes for F16s AESA radar. It is like a secret mission  There *are* credible rumors of PAF pilots flying UAE F16s.
> 
> Underestimating own capabilities is also not right. Our forces have the capability to repel any kind of aggression. It is always our pathetic leaders who disappoint us. Have faith bro



To correct you bro, there are no PAF pilots on UAE F-16s, I know from my experience with UAE Air Force.


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## behram

blain2 said:


> Yaar indestructible,
> 
> There are just as many (or perhaps more) Americans advising in the UAE as Pakistanis. If Pakistanis were flying the blk-60s, the Americans would have brought this up and secondly we would have known about it more openly.
> 
> Familiarization flights on a blk-60 is one thing, flying them regularly to maintain hours on the platform is an entirely different thing. If I am not mistaken, we have done the latter on the Mirage 2000s but not on the blk-60s. The UAEAF has enough local pilots who do the flying on these aircraft. They have been very generous in inviting PAF for bi-lateral and multi-lateral trainings for the past few years in which we have interacted closely with the blk-60s and that is the extent of our familiarization. Once we have blk-52 inducted and have built a pool of pilots who are trained on it, then there would be a possibility that if UAEAF ever wanted to (I do not see any specific reasons) have PAF fly their blk-60s, we would be able to do so quickly.



PAF pilots have never flown Mirage 2000s of UAEAF, there is only one pilot in Qatar AF, Mehboob Khalid, he's flown it. Otherwise the only Mirages PAF flew in UAE were all III/Vs.

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## SaleemKhan

behram said:


> As far to my knowledge and having talked to some fighter pilots, Red Flag is no mere serious exercise, its coordinated and thought-out. Its more of a social event instead.



No sir, I think this will help us a lot in real war, we can learn new future combat tactics. This is going to help our fighter pilots in enhancing their skills.


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## behram

SaleemKhan said:


> No sir, I think this will help us a lot in real war, we can learn new future combat tactics. This is going to help our fighter pilots in enhancing their skills.



Bro, they're is nothing special about it, USAF Red Flag is not a serious exercise anymore, I know jocks from USMC, Canada, UK.......they all admit and have demonstrated that Red Flag is no exercise worth attending other than sending your most inexperienced pilots, Red Flag is very coordinated and a already a setup. Real exercises worth going for are Maple Flag, Anatolian Eagle, and the Cope exercises held in Thailand.


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## Peregrine

Hi
Why isn't JF-17 Participating?


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## gambit

behram said:


> Bro, they're is nothing special about it, USAF *Red Flag is not a serious exercise anymore*, I know jocks from USMC, Canada, UK.......they all admit and have demonstrated that Red Flag is no exercise worth attending other than sending your most inexperienced pilots, Red Flag is very coordinated and a already a setup. Real exercises worth going for are Maple Flag, Anatolian Eagle, and the Cope exercises held in Thailand.


Absolutely...I agree %100... Everyone should just reject the US offer and make their own training environment...If they can...

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## Wasif A.K.

Is this news confirmed by any PAF sources yet?


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## Kompromat

Off topic :Can anyone confirm if PAF is going to Anatolian Eagle this year ?


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## fatman17

Black Blood said:


> Off topic :Can anyone confirm if PAF is going to Anatolian Eagle this year ?



the issue with anatolian eagle is that, due to deterioration of relations between Turkey and Israel where the latter was not allowed to participate, resulted in many NATO countries including US refusing to participate, left only TuAF and PAF as the only airforces. so lets see what happens this time. - AE is based on Red Flag parameters and costs less to the participating countries.

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## fatman17

the cost of participating in RF is upwards of US$25m. that a lot of money in PKR (210m) - so is it worth the effort - IMO - yes!!!


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> the issue with anatolian eagle is that, due to deterioration of relations between Turkey and Israel where the latter was not allowed to participate, resulted in many NATO countries including US refusing to participate, left only TuAF and PAF as the only airforces. so lets see what happens this time. - AE is based on Red Flag parameters and costs less to the participating countries.



It seems that we have just got a chance to keep AE up and Running


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> the cost of participating in RF is upwards of US$25m. that a lot of money in PKR (210m) - so is it worth the effort - IMO - yes!!!



It is the best air excercise in the world & we need this experiance after a dead dacade.


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## S.U.R.B.



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## behram

Black Blood said:


> It is the best air excercise in the world & we need this experiance after a dead dacade.



That is the projected image of the Red Flag exercise. It is more of what the USAF learns about the other air forces than what the other air forces can learn about them. I remember the first PAF F-16 pilot who landed in Pakistan, he had done his training at Hill AFB, he told me about the whole concept of this exercise, stating that you only get to learn from others in this profession if you fly regularly for years, not by a few mere weeks. If anyone needs more info on this source, he lives a few mins away from my home in Bahrain. 
This is him btw :
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/f16_l_01.jpg

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## Kompromat

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> Why isn't JF-17 Participating?



It cannot Data Link with US AWACS which controls the exercise which will end us up like IAF's MKI Embarrassment that is why only F-16's will participate.

regards:


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## Kompromat

behram said:


> That is the projected image of the Red Flag exercise. It is more of what the USAF learns about the other air forces than what the other air forces can learn about them. I remember the first PAF F-16 pilot who landed in Pakistan, he had done his training at Hill AFB, he told me about the whole concept of this exercise, stating that you only get to learn from others in this profession if you fly regularly for years, not by a few mere weeks. If anyone needs more info on this source, he lives a few mins away from my home in Bahrain.
> This is him btw :
> http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/f16_l_01.jpg



Everyone has their own say but i cannot deny this fact but in the mean while Red Flag has an international profile and we certainly need it after spending a decade in dark.

regards:


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## Sapper

Black Blood said:


> It cannot Data Link with US AWACS which controls the exercise which will end us up like IAF's MKI Embarrassment that is why only F-16's will participate.
> 
> regards:



Dear,

I am certain that our current configuration of F-16 A/B Block 15 do not have link 16 built into them, so they will not be able to communicate with US AWACS either.

It would have been better if PAF held off till next year, and participated with its F16 Bl52's.

Regards,
Sapper


----------



## WAQAS119

*RED FLAG-Alaska exercise underway​*
EIELSON AIR FORCE, Alaska -- The latest RED FLAG-Alaska exercise kicked off Monday at Eielson and Elmendorf AFB, AK.

This exercise is expected to be the largest iteration this year; with more than 2,500 personnel and 124 aircraft taking part in the large-force exercise and is scheduled to end June 25.

Air Force units from Shaw AFB, S.C., Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz., Yokota AB, Japan, Kadena AB, Japan, Hickam AFB, HI and elements of the Louisiana and Florida Air National Guard are all participating in the 10-day exercise.

The U.S. Marine Corps is also represented by a Harrier squadron from Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Yuma, Ariz.

At Eielson, the Japanese Air Self-Defense Force has sent F-15J fighter aircraft and KC-767 tanker aircraft to participate in the exercise and the Italian Air Force has sent a detachment of Tornado strike aircraft. At Elmendorf, Belgium and JASDF have sent C-130 transport aircraft.

Aircrews will challenge each other in varying combat scenarios over the skies of Alaska. The exercise is conducted at the Joint-Alaska Pacific Range Complex, a military range that spans nearly 67,000 square miles over much of the Eastern portion of Interior Alaska.


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## farhan_9909

when it is starting


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## Kompromat

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> I am certain that our current configuration of F-16 A/B Block 15 do not have link 16 built into them, so they will not be able to communicate with US AWACS either.
> 
> It would have been better if PAF held off till next year, and participated with its F16 Bl52's.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Well i am aware of that and i think Block 52's will participate in the exercise as we are receiving four of them this month but i am not sure how many we may require.
PAF must have a plan in place before accepting such an offer dont you think so?

I think our F-16's can be guided by either E-3 or any Ground based Radar station during the exercise , here is the USAF F-16 in the redflag.


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## notorious ausiee

so u guys got schedule for red flag???

or still dreaming?

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## Kompromat

notorious ausiee said:


> so u guys got schedule for red flag???
> 
> or still dreaming?



Schedule has not been announced yet , i will post it as soon as i get hands on it.


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## pshamim

Black Blood said:


> Well i am aware of that and i think Block 52's will participate in the exercise as we are receiving four of them this month but i am not sure how many we may require.
> PAF must have a plan in place before accepting such an offer dont you think so?



A/B are more likely to be participating. The BLK-52 should be arriving Pakistan next 8-10 days.

Will be great for the PAF to show its mastery of older F-16s against some of the latest aircrafts.

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## Kompromat

pshamim said:


> A/B are more likely to be participating. The BLK-52 should be arriving Pakistan next 8-10 days.
> 
> Will be great for the PAF to show its mastery of older F-16s against some of the latest aircrafts.



Thanks for providing the well needed info sir

What i was worried about is that if A/B would be able to communicate with the AWACS as they dont have LINK-16 as Sapper mentioned ?

The reason is that i dont wana hear an embarrassment like Indian Air force because of the lack of data Link.


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## behram

Black Blood said:


> Everyone has their own say but i cannot deny this fact but in the mean while Red Flag has an international profile and we certainly need it after spending a decade in dark.
> 
> regards:



Yes sir I agree that it is an international profile, I'm giving my point of view that is strongly influenced by fighter pilots that have told me their experiences at Red Flag, and they said it wasn't good at all. Maybe this time there is a different output to it.


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## Super Falcon

well interesting to see paf block 50/52 F 16 Vs Japanese F 15 J and Italian Tornado cant wait to seee


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## WAQAS119

Why PAF is not participating with JF17..?
I mean it is a good opportunity for PAF to determine its true capabilities.


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## behram

Super Falcon said:


> well interesting to see paf block 50/52 F 16 Vs Japanese F 15 J and Italian Tornado cant wait to seee



F-15s will be good to fly against, Tornado is nothing(know a lot of RAF guys who hate it). The Japenese F-2 would be a nice one to fly against, as if considered its even more advanced than F-16s in service with the UAE.


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## Super Falcon

so what you think do paf f 16 stands channce against USAF F 15


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## pshamim

Plan as I heard is to send a whole Squadron(12-15 aircrafts). The exercise will take place at the end of the year. Schedule will be set after finalizing the technical details and duration of the exercise. My questions:

1. We all know when Red Flag will be held. Will it be a 5th or 6th segment for US and Pakistan only?

2. If PAF intends to send 12-15 aircrafts, will we have all blk-52 received before the exercise?

3. Are our pilots will be proficient enough on a blk-52 for Red Flag?

I think our pilots are extremely proficient on A/B and can give tough time to much superior aircrafts. Hopefully, some may have the CCIP by then. Needless to say flying skills of PAF are far superior than anys though they may not have the weapons on their platform.

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## SBD-3

behram said:


> F-15s will be good to fly against, Tornado is nothing(know a lot of RAF guys who hate it). The Japenese F-2 would be a nice one to fly against, as if considered its even more advanced than F-16s in service with the UAE.



adding to this JF will also have a chance to fly against J-11,J-10,F-15,Typhoon and rafael


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## behram

Talked to a PAF pilot recently, yes there is a hint that No.9 Sqn will head for Red Flag.


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## Super Falcon

Number 9 Squadron so what fighter jets are in that squadron F 16 or Mirages


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## mjnaushad

Super Falcon said:


> Number 9 Squadron so what fighter jets are in that squadron F 16 or Mirages


F16 A, Perhaps upgrade to block40 standard

Pakistan Air Force Squadrons

This site says its F16 A


----------



## Super Falcon

sir their is no 50 block i heared of may be it is block 50/52 are you sure it is block 40


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## WAQAS119

WAQAS119 said:


> Why PAF is not participating with JF17..?
> I mean it is a good opportunity for PAF to determine its true capabilities.



no answer yet!!!!!!!
@PShamim: please sir! tell me why not JF17?


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## Kompromat

WAQAS119 said:


> no answer yet!!!!!!!
> @PShamim: please sir! tell me why not JF17?



It already has been answered , the JF-17 cannot Data Link with E-3 Awacs and other control measures used in Red Flag moreover the JF-17 has very little A2A capability as for now .

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## behram

Super Falcon said:


> sir their is no 50 block i heared of may be it is block 50/52 are you sure it is block 40



Block 15, or Block 15MLU will be flown to US if PAF gets the green light for Red Flag this year, no block 40s at all of course as PAF doesnt operate them. Don't know about the Block 52s though.


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## fatman17

behram said:


> Block 15, or Block 15MLU will be flown to US if PAF gets the green light for Red Flag this year, no block 40s at all of course as PAF doesnt operate them. Don't know about the Block 52s though.



my info (not verified) is that 4 MLU examples which r already in the US + 4 blk 52 will participate subject to GoP greenlight as the excercise is very expensive - ~$25m has been quoted.!!! - so lets see what happens.

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## Storm Force

blackblood 

2 questions re your comment " _It already has been answered , the JF-17 cannot Data Link with E-3 Awacs and other control measures used in Red Flag moreover the JF-17 has very little A2A capability as for now . _

Are yopu saying Thunder has no datalink capability

Thunder has no Strike weapons. Its only recognised armanent are chinease 
SD10 & pl9 a2a missles. In other words at the moment it has no laser guided strike weapons at all. 

India took the SU30MKI with a non western data link system it was fine WHY NOT THUNDER.

My guess is the current Thunders stil very basic capability and RED FLAG IS VERY TECH strong environment.. Hence PAF will send its best planes the F16a/b/c to the excercise


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> blackblood
> 
> 2 questions re your comment " _It already has been answered , the JF-17 cannot Data Link with E-3 Awacs and other control measures used in Red Flag moreover the JF-17 has very little A2A capability as for now . _
> 
> Are yopu saying Thunder has no datalink capability
> 
> Thunder has no Strike weapons. Its only recognised armanent are chinease
> SD10 & pl9 a2a missles. In other words at the moment it has no laser guided strike weapons at all.
> 
> India took the SU30MKI with a non western data link system it was fine WHY NOT THUNDER.
> 
> My guess is the current Thunders stil very basic capability and RED FLAG IS VERY TECH strong environment.. Hence PAF will send its best planes the F16a/b/c to the excercise



I have never said that Thunder does not have any Data Linking system but my point was that its Data Linking system wont be able to communicate with E-3 AWACS .

MKI was unable to Communicate with the AWACS in Red Flag ! and this is why it was being said that MKI pilots had no idea what was going on in the Excercise.



> The FC-1&#8217;s avionics architecture is supported by two mission computers based on *Multi-Bus System (MIL-STD-1553B). *The heart of the system is a 32-bit Weapon and Mission management Computer (WMMC) which performs mission computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-test.
> 
> Navigation -- Hybrid inertial navigation system (INS) and global positioning system (GPS);
> Communications --* Independent data link with two Independent wide-band radios with anti-jamming capabilities; *Electronic warfare (EW) -- Self production jammer, missile approach warning system, radar warning receiver (RWR), chaff & flare dispenser;
> Identification of Friend and foe (IFF) -- IFF interrogator for target verification at the BVR range;
> &#8216;Glass&#8217; cockpit -- Three large Multifunction Colour Displays (MFD) and smart Heads-Up Display (HUD) with built-in symbol generation capability; HOTAS;
> Targeting -- Laser Designator and Targeting Pod (LDTP) for target illumination and detection with day/ night capabilities;



First 50 Thunders are meant to replace Q-5 Ground attack air crafts which means that the current fleet has a limited BVR capability.

Our Thunders cannot communicate with Erie just because of Data Linking differences but once we have new western Avionics for upcoming jets plus a Radar this problem would be solved and we would be sending Thunders to Anatolian Eagle and other excercises.

Moreover Thunders are capable of firing all sorts of PGM's and LGB's.



> The aircraft can carry a special pod allowing day/night delivery of laser-guided weapons. In addition, it can also carry unguided weapons such as low-drag general-purpose (LDGP) bombs and unguided rocket launchers.



Regards:

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## Al Bhatti

*UAE's F16s to take to the big screen*

*More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.*

Abu Dhabi: The UAE Air Force and Air Defence yesterday hosted a red-carpet VIP screening of Desert Falcons, a documentary featuring the nation's role in Red Flag &#8212; the world's most challenging aerial combat training exercise.

More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.

Now UAE residents will be the first public audience in the world to see Desert Falcons, with its global broadcast premiere tonight at 10pm on Abu Dhabi's Al Emarat channel.

The English version will be broadcast on Abu Dhabi Sports at 10.30pm. The documentary will be shown again on June 26 during the weekly programme Al Madar on Abu Dhabi Sports.

Hosted by the US Air Force and held at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, USA, participation in Red Flag is by invitation only.

Since its first exercise in 1975, fewer than 30 countries have taken part.

From August 22 to September 5, 2009, more than 140 of the UAE Air Force's most talented fighter pilots and maintenance officers spent two weeks training in realistic aerial combat exercises conducted over the 15,000 square mile Nevada Test and Training Range north of Las Vegas. The documentary features the UAE's fighter aircraft the F16 Block 60, better known as the Desert Falcon.

Developed and built by Lockheed Martin, the Desert Falcons are the most technologically advanced F16s, and they are owned exclusively by the UAE Air Force.

Flying high: Defence display

For more information on the documentary and the UAE Air Force and Air Defence, log onto Desert Falcons

Source

------------

Watch the global Premiere of Desert Falcons on Wednesday, 23-june at 10 PM UAE time (6 pm GMT) on Abu Dhabi Al Emarat Channel

English broadcast will air on Wednesday, june 23 at 10.30 PM UAE time (6-30 PM GMT) Abu Dhabi Sports Channel


Desert Falcons


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## behram

Al Bhatti said:


> *UAE's F16s to take to the big screen*
> 
> *More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.*
> 
> Abu Dhabi: The UAE Air Force and Air Defence yesterday hosted a red-carpet VIP screening of Desert Falcons, a documentary featuring the nation's role in Red Flag  the world's most challenging aerial combat training exercise.
> 
> More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.
> 
> Now UAE residents will be the first public audience in the world to see Desert Falcons, with its global broadcast premiere tonight at 10pm on Abu Dhabi's Al Emarat channel.
> 
> The English version will be broadcast on Abu Dhabi Sports at 10.30pm. The documentary will be shown again on June 26 during the weekly programme Al Madar on Abu Dhabi Sports.
> 
> Hosted by the US Air Force and held at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, USA, participation in Red Flag is by invitation only.
> 
> Since its first exercise in 1975, fewer than 30 countries have taken part.
> 
> From August 22 to September 5, 2009, more than 140 of the UAE Air Force's most talented fighter pilots and maintenance officers spent two weeks training in realistic aerial combat exercises conducted over the 15,000 square mile Nevada Test and Training Range north of Las Vegas. The documentary features the UAE's fighter aircraft the F16 Block 60, better known as the Desert Falcon.
> 
> Developed and built by Lockheed Martin, the Desert Falcons are the most technologically advanced F16s, and they are owned exclusively by the UAE Air Force.
> 
> Flying high: Defence display
> 
> For more information on the documentary and the UAE Air Force and Air Defence, log onto Desert Falcons
> 
> Source
> 
> ------------
> 
> Watch the global Premiere of Desert Falcons on Wednesday, 23-june at 10 PM UAE time (6 pm GMT) on Abu Dhabi Al Emarat Channel
> 
> English broadcast will air on Wednesday, june 23 at 10.30 PM UAE time (6-30 PM GMT) Abu Dhabi Sports Channel
> 
> 
> Desert Falcons



One of the "camels" was my instructor(and he was my dad's student).


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## Chogy

Interesting thread. In my own experience, a well-run Red Flag is probably the finest training available in the world, and I'm not stating that just because I am American. I believe it to be a reality. I have flown multiple Red Flags, Maple Flags, Copper Flag, and have also flown the "free fight" skies of Europe back when there was a West Germany, and any fighter anywhere is subject to (mock) attack. None of them can compare to Red Flag as a package that combines an enormous number of elements into a fight that tasks pilots and planners to the absolute maximum.

You've got a supersonic land range, which is often rare. Masking terrain. Multiple ground threats. Hot ranges for ground attack. Full ACMI for debrief, none of this "I shot you first" "no you didn't" crap. I've seen everything from strings of B-52's crossing a dry lake bed, kicking up rooster tails, to strike packages led by EF-111 and containing 18 attack aircraft, with defensive outriggers, pressing towards a target.

You've got ECM, ECCM, COMM jamming, as much fog of war that the administrators can create; again, replicating a real-world environment. 

The adrenaline soars. Those who participate WILL get a feel for aerial combat that in many ways exceeds the real thing, at least in the low levels it has been executed in the last 2 decades.

You take from the training what you put into it. There is no "setup" involved in the sense of a scenario where you are either doomed to failure, or guaranteed to emerge victorious. The scenarios are what they are, and often an impossible situation turns into victory. Occasionally, they are stacked towards red, and the next day, they may favor blue. And isn't that war? You can't always expect a threat that is weak, or low in numbers.

I think it is a golden opportunity for the PAF, to learn both its own capabilities, and those of allies and adversaries.

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## M8R

PAF is going to Red Flag 

Red Flag Participating Flying Units
19-30 July



Red Air
65 AGRS, F-16, Nellis AFB, Nev.
64 AGRS, F-15, Nellis AFB, Nev.

Escort

Interdiction
92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
*9 MRS, PAF (F-16CG)*
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)
Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)

Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)

Command and Control
552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
NATO (E-3)
130 RQS, Calif. ANG (MC-130)

Aerial Refueling
22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135) 
Nellis Air Force Base - Flying Operations

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## behram

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;950573 said:


> PAF is going to Red Flag
> 
> Red Flag Participating Flying Units
> 19-30 July
> 
> 
> 
> Red Air
> 65 AGRS, F-16, Nellis AFB, Nev.
> 64 AGRS, F-15, Nellis AFB, Nev.
> 
> Escort
> 
> Interdiction
> 92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
> *9 MRS, PAF (F-16CG)*
> VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)
> Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)
> 
> Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
> VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
> VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)
> 
> Command and Control
> 552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
> NATO (E-3)
> 130 RQS, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
> 
> Aerial Refueling
> 22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)
> Nellis Air Force Base - Flying Operations



No.9 MRS F-16A. Nice to see they will fly with Jarheads.


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## S_O_C_O_M

*Nellis AFB Red Flag Schedule for fiscal year 2010: *
Units participating in Red Flag exercises are subject to change.

*Red Flag Participating Flying Units
19-30 July*

>> Click here for news release <<

*Red Air *
65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16) 
64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)

*Interdiction* 
92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
*9 MRS, PAF (F-16B) *
425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)

*Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses *
77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)

*Command and Control *
552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
NATO (E-3)
Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)

*Aerial Refueling *
22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)

*Aviation Photography Days*
Red Flag aviation photography day will be held July 21, for photographers with a letter from an official editor providing intent to publish. 


Nellis Air Force Base - Flying Operations


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## Peregrine

Hi,
According to Pakistani News Channels *a squadron of PAF f-16's have been sent to USA to take part in Red flag exercises*


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## behram

Al Bhatti said:


> *UAE's F16s to take to the big screen*
> 
> *More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.*
> 
> Abu Dhabi: The UAE Air Force and Air Defence yesterday hosted a red-carpet VIP screening of Desert Falcons, a documentary featuring the nation's role in Red Flag  the world's most challenging aerial combat training exercise.
> 
> More than 700 Air Force guests attended the screening at Emirates Palace.
> 
> Now UAE residents will be the first public audience in the world to see Desert Falcons, with its global broadcast premiere tonight at 10pm on Abu Dhabi's Al Emarat channel.
> 
> The English version will be broadcast on Abu Dhabi Sports at 10.30pm. The documentary will be shown again on June 26 during the weekly programme Al Madar on Abu Dhabi Sports.
> 
> Hosted by the US Air Force and held at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, USA, participation in Red Flag is by invitation only.
> 
> Since its first exercise in 1975, fewer than 30 countries have taken part.
> 
> From August 22 to September 5, 2009, more than 140 of the UAE Air Force's most talented fighter pilots and maintenance officers spent two weeks training in realistic aerial combat exercises conducted over the 15,000 square mile Nevada Test and Training Range north of Las Vegas. The documentary features the UAE's fighter aircraft the F16 Block 60, better known as the Desert Falcon.
> 
> Developed and built by Lockheed Martin, the Desert Falcons are the most technologically advanced F16s, and they are owned exclusively by the UAE Air Force.
> 
> Flying high: Defence display
> 
> For more information on the documentary and the UAE Air Force and Air Defence, log onto Desert Falcons
> 
> Source
> 
> ------------
> 
> Watch the global Premiere of Desert Falcons on Wednesday, 23-june at 10 PM UAE time (6 pm GMT) on Abu Dhabi Al Emarat Channel
> 
> English broadcast will air on Wednesday, june 23 at 10.30 PM UAE time (6-30 PM GMT) Abu Dhabi Sports Channel
> 
> 
> Desert Falcons


Here is the full documentary for those who are interested : 
Desert Falcons.wmv

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## air marshal

*PAF F-16 squadron leaves for US*
July 10, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in Red Flag war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

F-16 squadron leaves for US

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## air marshal

*PAF F-16s depart for Red Flag Exercise in USA*
July 10, 2010

ISLAMABAD (APP): A contingent of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F 16 combats aircraft along with fighter pilots and technical crew departed a PAF Base for USA to participate in the forthcoming Air Force Exercise, Red Flag scheduled to commence on 15 July. 

Some of the leading Air Forces of the world including the United States Air Force would also take part in the exercise, says a press release.
PAF F 16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in Red Flag exercise.

Red Flag, one of the most reputed Air Force exercises in the world, is being held periodically in USA since 1975.

However PAFs participation in this exercise would further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew in facing the challenges of effectively employing Air Power in the 21st century.


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## air marshal

*PAF's F-16A/B aircrafts getting ready for departure to USA to participate in Exercise Red Flag.*

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## Patriot

Great News - thanks airmshall for posting pictures now upload some videos on your youtube salmansignals channel.


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## razgriz19

btw how many f-16s are going?
and why there r only B models in the pics?


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## air marshal




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## Karakoram8 Eagle

*PAF sending F-16 squadron for US air exercise*

Karachi, July 11 : The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) would be sending one of its F-16 squadrons to the US for the multinational air exercise &#8216;Red Flag&#8217;, which is scheduled to begin on July 15.

A statement issued by the PAF said that Pakistani F-16&#8217;s would take part in the reputed exercise which would be attended by some of the leading air forces of the world, including the US Air Force.

PAF&#8217;s F-16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in the exercises to further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew, The Daily Times quoted the statement, as saying.

Red Flag is one of the most reputed air force exercises in the world and has been held periodically in the US since 1975.

ISLAMABAD: A contingent of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F 16 combats aircraft along with fighter pilots and technical crew departed a PAF Base for USA to participate in the forthcoming Air Force Exercise, Red Flag scheduled to commence on 15 July.

Some of the leading Air Forces of the world including the United States Air Force would also take part in the exercise, says a press release.

PAF F 16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in Red Flag exercise.

Red Flag, one of the most reputed Air Force exercises in the world, is being held periodically in USA since 1975.

However PAFs participation in this exercise would further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew in facing the challenges of effectively employing Air Power in the 21st century.

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in &#8216;Red Flag&#8217; war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.


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## owcc

Pakistans participation in red flag will indeed give their airforce an exposure to real time air superiority tatics .Further the use of f16s is good as PAF wont face the issues IAF faced during red flag.IAF sukhois could not integrate and connect with data link of the US awacs which greatly reduced their ability but PAF f16s wont have that problem as they are US made .Best of luck!!!!!

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Yaaaaay.....!!!


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## air marshal

razgriz19 said:


> btw how many f-16s are going?


According to todays Jang newspaper, six vipers leaves for Red Flag exercise.


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## Myth_buster_1

owcc said:


> Pakistans participation in red flag will indeed give their airforce an exposure to real time air superiority tatics .Further the use of f16s is good as PAF wont face the issues IAF faced during red flag.IAF sukhois could not integrate and connect with data link of the US awacs which greatly reduced their ability but PAF f16s wont have that problem as they are US made .Best of luck!!!!!


What the heck are u talking about?
PAF has its own tactics and does not relies on any one for developing tactics.. plus paf has counducted a lot of exercise to give them experience they already have.

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

A new round of Red Flag combat training exercises have got underway at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. Hosted by the United States Air Force, Red Flag offers a chance for USAF assets and their international air force counterparts to participate and engage in ultra-realistic air combat scenarios.

This is the 35th year that these war games have been taking place and this latest instalment began on January 25th, and will continue until February 5th.
Red Flag Exercise

Two nations will be represented at the initial 2010 Red Flag exercise: the Royal Air Force and the USAF itself. Seven different types of modern day combat aircraft, meanwhile, will participate, along with various command and control types and KC-135 tankers. Here&#8217;s a full list of the aircraft types taking part, along with brief details on their operators:

* USAF Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon multirole combat aircraft, based at Nellis Air Force Base, Homestead Air Force Base (Florida), Eglin Air Force Base (Florida) and Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base (Texas),
* USAF Boeing F-15C air superiority fighters, based at Nellis Air Force Base and Kadena Air Base (Japan)
* USAF Lockheed Martin/ Boeing F-22A Raptor multirole stealth fighters from Holloman Air Force Base (New Mexico)
* USAF Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle ground attack strike fighters from RAF Lakenheath (UK)
* United States Marine Corps Boeing F/A-18 Hornets from Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort (South Carolina)
* Royal Air Force BAE Systems/Boeing Harrier GR9s from RAF Cottesmore (UK)
* United States Navy Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare aircraft from Naval Air Station Whidbey Island (Washington)
* USAF Boeing E-3 Sentry airborne early warning and control (AWACS) aircraft from Tinker Air Force Base (Oklahoma)
* USAF Northrop Grumman E-8 Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JOINT STARS) aircraft from Robins Air Force Base (Georgia)
* USAF Boeing RC-135V reconnaissance aircraft from Offutt Air Force Base (Nebraska)
* USAF Boeing KC-135 air-to-air refuellers from McConnell Air Force Base (Kansas), Grissom Joint Reserve Air Base (Indiana) and Grand Forks Air Force Base (North Dakota)

Air Force Exercise

Nellis Air Force Base is one of the largest of its kind possessed by any air force. It&#8217;s associated Nevada Test and Training Range provides airspace that extends out to in excess of 15,000 square miles &#8211; and it&#8217;s this vast area where the Red Flag air force exercises take place.
Recently Added News

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## air marshal




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## owcc

Growler said:


> What the heck are u talking about?
> PAF has its own tactics and does not relies on any one for developing tactics.. plus paf has counducted a lot of exercise to give them experience they already have.



RED flag cconsists of of nearly all nato airforces (among the best in the world).PAF is a good force but to say that they re better than NATO is too much.The reason why you are going there is to improve your own tatics and performance besides f16 is an excellent choice for red flag.Your f16s can easily integrate with all major nato systems which will give yu a good experience


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## Super Hornet

owcc said:


> RED flag cconsists of of nearly all nato airforces (among the best in the world).PAF is a good force but to say that they re better than NATO is too much.The reason why you are going there is to improve your own tatics and performance besides f16 is an excellent choice for red flag.Your f16s can easily integrate with all major nato systems which will give yu a good experience


Hey PAF is going there to show everyone hw capable it is and why it is called *Second To None*


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## Myth_buster_1

owcc said:


> RED flag cconsists of of nearly all nato airforces (among the best in the world).PAF is a good force but to say that they re better than NATO is too much.The reason why you are going there is to improve your own tatics and performance besides f16 is an excellent choice for red flag.Your f16s can easily integrate with all major nato systems which will give yu a good experience



Kid I'm seriously sick n tired of replying to indian low quality posts... u have no knowledge so ur posts r coming of mere jealousy. PAF tactics are by no means infirior to NATO standards neither supirior. Tactics are developed according to own needs and enviroment. You need to get this superiority complex out of ur head. Just cuz the tactics or air force is pakistani doesn't mean its infirior.


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## owcc

Growler said:


> Kid I'm seriously sick n tired of replying to indian low quality posts... u have no knowledge so ur posts r coming of mere jealousy. PAF tactics are by no means infirior to NATO standards neither supirior. Tactics are developed according to own needs and enviroment. You need to get this superiority complex out of ur head. Just cuz the tactics or air force is pakistani doesn't mean its infirior.



I didnt say yur tactics are inferior i just said they r not superior thats all,and all people go to red flag for a good experience and I am sure yu will get it there.


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## Hasnain2009

owcc said:


> I didnt say yur tactics are inferior i just said they r not superior thats all,and all people go to red flag for a good experience and I am sure yu will get it there.



So how do u know their tactics are not superior?


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## owcc

Hasnain2009 said:


> So how do u know their tactics are not superior?



Simple they built the damn planes which our countries are flying and they give it to yu after 2 decades of using them ,that means two decades of experience more am I wrong here!!!!
cheers


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## Hasnain2009

owcc said:


> Simple they built the damn planes which our countries are flying and they give it to yu after 2 decades of using them ,that means two decades of experience more am I wrong here!!!!
> cheers



Which plane they gave us after using it for 2 decades?


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## owcc

Hasnain2009 said:


> Which plane?



Any plane for eg f16,the entire nato has been using it for over a decade.


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## Hasnain2009

owcc said:


> Any plane for eg f16,the entire nato has been using it for over a decade.



So do u know when we got our first F-16?


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## WAQAS119

Hasnain2009 said:


> So how do u know their tactics are not superior?



How dare you ask such a question from an air commodore???? 

Leave it body! don't feed these jealousy filled indian trolls. You can by no mean satisfy them. Their is no need to fall down to their level.

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## owcc

Hasnain2009 said:


> So do u know when we got our first F-16?



Yu got it a long time back but not the block 50s.The US only gives yu weapons which yu can either make by yourself or get from somewhere else .Take mmrca for eg theyr offering f16 / f18 either of these planes can be matched by some other in the competition hemce they offer it but they wont offer f22 for no amount of money will they!!!


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## Hasnain2009

owcc said:


> Yu got it a long time back but not the block 50s.The US only gives yu weapons which yu can either make by yourself or get from somewhere else .Take mmrca for eg theyr offering f16 / f18 either of these planes can be matched by some other in the competition hemce they offer it but they wont offer f22 for no amount of money will they!!!



Do know when block 52 was introduced and when PAF finalized deal to buy it?


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## ice_man

man its ok like i predicted indians were flying HIGH and full of EGO till the time IAF had gone to "RED FLAG" and PAF hadn't!! these people thought they had won it on "merit"  now today that we are going there theory & boastful thinking is finished!! *MISSION ACCOMPLISHED PAF!!* & like i had said BR will explode with the news and hue & cry and it is currently happening!!  i am loving every moment of it! so hasnain & all my buddies here chill relax its a natural knee jerk reaction from them! let's not inflame

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## Dazzler

owcc,

My my my..........

Just because they are using the plane for more than two decades, they must be superior??

It will be much wiser for you to not to talk on a topic that you have no knowledge of. Ever heard of Combat Commander School? Do you know how many nations send their pilots to graduate from here and how many of them pass out?

When it comes to skills and tactics, it is appreciated all over the world even in US, Germany,UK and France. Red Flag is a good learning curve and both sides will learn from it. It does not mean that our tactics are inferior by any mean.

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## Chogy

It might be worth re-emphasizing that _Red Flag is not a contest, never was._ It is a training environment. In any training event, you win some, you lose some, but above all, you learn and gain experience. The bragging rights come from simply having "been there, done that" because it is truly spectacular.

The U.S. has contests like William Tell and others, but they are very different from a Red Flag exercise.

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## behram

nabil_05 said:


> owcc,
> 
> My my my..........
> 
> Just because they are using the plane for more than two decades, they must be superior??
> 
> It will be much wiser for you to not to talk on a topic that you have no knowledge of. Ever heard of Combat Commander School? Do you know how many nations send their pilots to graduate from here and how many of them pass out?
> 
> When it comes to skills and tactics, it is appreciated all over the world even in US, Germany,UK and France. Red Flag is a good learning curve and both sides will learn from it. It does not mean that our tactics are inferior by any mean.



How many nations graduate from there? Apart from Pakistan and UAE, who else do you know have done CCS? The UAE guy was on Mirage Vs(he's currently on Mirage 2000-9s, CPL from Peshawar Flying Club).

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## fatman17

*PAF&#8217;s F-16 jets leave for &#8216;Red Flag&#8217; exercise in US*

KARACHI: Pakistan Air Force (PAF)&#8217;s squadron of F-16 aircraft have left with fighter pilots and technical crew for the US to participate in the forthcoming multinational exercises &#8216;Red Flag&#8217; to commence from Thursday. As per an official handout, some of the leading air forces of the world, including the US Air Force, would take part in the maneuvers. PAF&#8217;s F-16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in the exercise to further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew. Red Flag is one of the most reputed air force exercises in the world and it has been periodically held in the US since 1975. *staff report*


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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force F-16 depart for Red Flag 2010*

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## HASANITALIA

iss too olds our f 16


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## Dazzler

Pilots from Egypt, Libya, UAE, Qatar, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia to name a few. 

You talk about inferior training? Lets see....

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
behind".

-Sergey Vekhov
May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
UK-based air defence magazine.

The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF(Indian Air Force), has at least
one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of
Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US
Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professional' during
exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots).

-Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)

And this is more relevant...

"Pakistan&#8217;s &#8216;Top Gun&#8217; Base:

SARGHODA, situated 50 miles north of the famous textile city of Faisalabad in north central Pakistan, and within 150 miles of the Indian border, is the home of the Combat Commanders School which has earned it the reputation of the 'Top Gun' base of the Pakistan Air Force. It first came to prominence during the Indo-Pakistan Wars of 1965 and 1971 during which it provided a pivotal role in the air war with India. During the 1965 War S/L MM Alam became Pakistan's air ace. Flying the F-86, he shot down five Indian aircraft in one mission. Sarghoda was also a key target for the Indian Air Force during that time. In recognition of its efforts during these conflicts, Sarghoda has had the privilege of initially hosting all the new types of aircraft purchased by the air force, including the F-86, F-104, F-6, Mirage and F-16. The only exception being the F-7P. The base, under the command of its popular commander, Air Commodore Majeeb, is now the home of the No 38 Tactical Fighter Wing which comprises two squadrons 9 Griffins Squadron and 11 Arrows Squadron flying the F-16A and B, and the Combat Commanders School with two Squadrons, the Skybolts with the Mirage 5PA, and the Dashings with F-6s.

The school is under the command of G/C Riat, a veteran of the '71 Indian conflict during which he flew the F-86. The school and its instructors (which would also have a role to play in the event of a war) is run on a very similar infrastructure to the USAF DACT Training Bases, even including the school buildings themselves. The aims of the school are as follows:-

1 . Application of flying tactics.
2. Utilisation of weapon systems.
3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.
4. Research and development in the field of tactics.

Pilots are selected by Air HQ in Rawalpindi normally after nine to twelve years of service. The successful graduates would hope to command a squadron in the rank of wing commander. The courses are tough and some selectees inevitably fail to make the grade. There are three courses, the combat commanders course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.

The CCS DACT course is unique throughout the world in its freedom as all combat missions are flown at tree top levels. All course pilots are fully responsible for the entirely independent formulation and execution of their mission plans and then drawing their own conclusions after the flight.

The importance of CCS at Sarghoda is highlighted by the fact that all foreign chiefs of air staff visiting Pakistan on exchange visits always include Sarghoda in their itinerary. This was the case recently when the RAF Chief of Air Staff Sir Peter Harding visited the school with his wife during a seven day exchange visit to Pakistan from October 11-18, 1991. He was most impressed with what he saw, and showed surprise at the freedom allotted to the student DACT pilots. An F-7P was flown in to Sarghoda from Rafiqui Air Base during his visit in which he was given a 30 minute flight.

( Mike Downing, Air Forces Monthly, April, 1992) "

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## Dazzler

Just one more plzzz...

""Every Man A Tiger
"Iraqi pilot training came from three sources: France, Pakistan and the former Soviet Union. Lucky for us, Soviet training proved dominant, with their emphisis on rigid rules, strict command arrangements and standardized tactics. Coupled with this centralized approach, the Soviets were suspecious of non- Russians and disliked Arabs. The Iraqi students were taught to take off and land their aircrafts safely, but otherwise their training was so basic, so lacking in advanced tactics, as to be useless. There was however a wild card. Not all Iraqi training came from the Russians.

Iraqi pilots, were trained well by their French and Pakistani instructors. Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world. They have to; their neighbour to the east is huge, and the two nations, have a long history of hostilities. For Indian war planners, the Pakistan air Force is their worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, especially the Islamic world, beause they know how to fly and fight.

On one or two occasions, I had the oppertunity to talk with Pakistani instructor pilots, who had served in Iraq. These discussions, didn't give me great cause to worry. The Russian domination of training prevented the Pakistanis from having any real influence on the Iraqi aircrew training program.

Still, there had to be a few Iraqi pilots, who had observed and listened to their mentors from France and Pakistan and the useless guidence of their inept leaders. It was those few, I was concerned about - the ones with great situational awareness and good eyesight, who had figured out how to effectively use their aircrafts and its weapons to defend their nation."

(General Chuck Horner (retd) and Tom Clancey. General Chuck commanded the US and allied air assets during Desert shield and desert storm, and was responsible for the design and execution of one of the most devestating air campaigns in the history. He also served as Commander 9th Air Force, Commander US Central Command Air Forces, and Commander in chief, SpaceCom. Book: Every Man A Tiger).

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## behram

nabil_05 said:


> Pilots from Egypt, Libya, UAE, Qatar, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia to name a few.
> 
> You talk about inferior training? Lets see....
> 
> "As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
> Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
> the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
> as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
> world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
> leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
> behind".
> 
> -Sergey Vekhov
> May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
> UK-based air defence magazine.
> 
> The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF(Indian Air Force), has at least
> one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of
> Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US
> Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professional' during
> exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots).
> 
> -Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)
> 
> And this is more relevant...
> 
> "Pakistans Top Gun Base:
> 
> SARGHODA, situated 50 miles north of the famous textile city of Faisalabad in north central Pakistan, and within 150 miles of the Indian border, is the home of the Combat Commanders School which has earned it the reputation of the 'Top Gun' base of the Pakistan Air Force. It first came to prominence during the Indo-Pakistan Wars of 1965 and 1971 during which it provided a pivotal role in the air war with India. During the 1965 War S/L MM Alam became Pakistan's air ace. Flying the F-86, he shot down five Indian aircraft in one mission. Sarghoda was also a key target for the Indian Air Force during that time. In recognition of its efforts during these conflicts, Sarghoda has had the privilege of initially hosting all the new types of aircraft purchased by the air force, including the F-86, F-104, F-6, Mirage and F-16. The only exception being the F-7P. The base, under the command of its popular commander, Air Commodore Majeeb, is now the home of the No 38 Tactical Fighter Wing which comprises two squadrons 9 Griffins Squadron and 11 Arrows Squadron flying the F-16A and B, and the Combat Commanders School with two Squadrons, the Skybolts with the Mirage 5PA, and the Dashings with F-6s.
> 
> The school is under the command of G/C Riat, a veteran of the '71 Indian conflict during which he flew the F-86. The school and its instructors (which would also have a role to play in the event of a war) is run on a very similar infrastructure to the USAF DACT Training Bases, even including the school buildings themselves. The aims of the school are as follows:-
> 
> 1 . Application of flying tactics.
> 2. Utilisation of weapon systems.
> 3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.
> 4. Research and development in the field of tactics.
> 
> Pilots are selected by Air HQ in Rawalpindi normally after nine to twelve years of service. The successful graduates would hope to command a squadron in the rank of wing commander. The courses are tough and some selectees inevitably fail to make the grade. There are three courses, the combat commanders course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.
> 
> The CCS DACT course is unique throughout the world in its freedom as all combat missions are flown at tree top levels. All course pilots are fully responsible for the entirely independent formulation and execution of their mission plans and then drawing their own conclusions after the flight.
> 
> The importance of CCS at Sarghoda is highlighted by the fact that all foreign chiefs of air staff visiting Pakistan on exchange visits always include Sarghoda in their itinerary. This was the case recently when the RAF Chief of Air Staff Sir Peter Harding visited the school with his wife during a seven day exchange visit to Pakistan from October 11-18, 1991. He was most impressed with what he saw, and showed surprise at the freedom allotted to the student DACT pilots. An F-7P was flown in to Sarghoda from Rafiqui Air Base during his visit in which he was given a 30 minute flight.
> 
> ( Mike Downing, Air Forces Monthly, April, 1992) "



Sir, I'm sure most of the countries you mentioned must have come for FIS or to as aviation cadets to PAF Acadmey. However for CCS Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Iran have never come for CCS. My source is my father( ex-PAF Wg Cdr, No.9 Sqn CCS on F-16s, and currently a on a civilian contract as a Hawk/F-16 instructor pilot in Royal Bahraini Air Force).


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## Dazzler

Behram,

Thanks for info bro but I was talking about general training not the CCS one. The post was in reply to Mr. owcc who raised point of inferior training.

Regards


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## behram

nabil_05 said:


> Behram,
> 
> Thanks for info bro but I was talking about general training not the CCS one. The post was in reply to Mr. owcc who raised point of inferior training.
> 
> Regards



Oh ok sir, buddy-spike. Thanks and take care.


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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 07:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 AM ----------

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## somebozo

This has been anticipated since 2008 because PAF has been foundation up accquiring "Red Flag" compatible airforce gear. 

By the way when Indians particiapted in 2008 Red Flag it resulted in a not so favourable opnion about their airforce and millitary gear.

So I am excitied to find out feedback about PAF pilots. It might be food for thought of Pak vs India fanboys. 

The Saudis and Turks will also be present making an intersting community of friends.

Boy oh boy..Im excitied.


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## owcc

somebozo said:


> This has been anticipated since 2008 since PAF has been laying foundation up accquiring "Red Flag" compatible airforce gear.
> By the way when Indians particiapted in 2008 Red Flag it resulted in their total disaster. The video is still somewhere on YouTube.
> So I am excitied to find out the feedback about PAF pilots. It might be food for thought of Pak vs India fanboys.
> 
> Boy oh boy..Im excitied.



Your right about that Indias participation red flag was a total disaster

The sukhois couldnt integrate with NATO awacs as they have different codings

the sukhoi attack radar could only be operated in training mode as the actual fight mode had a code which the russians did not want the US to pick up

The IAF planes were practically flying blind as the other airforce teams enjoyed ground and air integrated nato systems which the sukhoi couldnt integrate with due to different codes

the PAF f16s wont face any issues though and should have a good run


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## somebozo

During the Gulf war, many talented brass of Iraqi airforce with a personal dislike for Saddam Hussien defected to Saudi Arabia where they were given new identities and given jobs as flying trainers. Saudi's didnt want to make this matter a public news for their own security. This resulted in a qualitive rebirth of Saudi Airforce. Large part of these defected pilots were Pakistani and French trained who are able to see the incompetency of Saddam and majority of IqAF pilots trained by soviet.

As one American war vertern puts it, IqAF flying planes were sitting ducks in the skies. In the end Saddam ended up recusing his IqAF by flying all his planes to Iran, which later annexed them.

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## LeGenD

somebozo said:


> During the Gulf war, many talented brass of Iraqi airforce with a personal dislike for Saddam Hussien defected to Saudi Arabia where they were given new identities and given jobs as flying trainers. Saudi's didnt want to make this matter a public news for their own security. This resulted in a qualitive rebirth of Saudi Airforce. Large part of these defected pilots were Pakistani and French trained who are able to see the incompetency of Saddam and majority of IqAF pilots trained by soviet.
> 
> As one American war vertern puts it, IqAF flying planes were sitting ducks in the skies. In the end Saddam ended up recusing his IqAF by flying all his planes to Iran, which later annexed them.


You need to watch or re-watch the "Dogfights of Desert Storm" show.

*Here is a brief:*

American tatics and technology in the 1980s and 1990s were shaped by the lessons learned during the Vietnam War. When Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait on August 2nd, 1990, American air power faced its greatest threat in decades. So the United States and its allies decided to make things right to force Iraqi forces to pull out of Kuwait. The plan is Operation Desert Storm, but just two days into the operation, the Iraqis send up more fighters to challenge the Americans. On January 19th, F-15 Eagle pilot Larry Pitts goes head-to-head with some of the best pilots in the Iraqi Air Force in one of the most thrilling dogfights of the Gulf War.

*Here are some videos:*
















It required the combination of extreme skill of American pilots, most advanced figher planes of the time, superior threat detection capabilities, and BVR to beat these highly experienced Iraqi fighter pilots. 

After loosing some of the best fighter pilots and fighter planes in the early days of the war, what could Saddam do? Some people may have defected him due to the disaster of the Gulf War. I doubt that any other Airforce (of any Islamic nation) could defeat such a superior enemy.

*Here is the conclusion:*

In just over one month, allied air power broke the back of the fifth largest air force in the world. In late February 1991, the air war is affectively over having cleared the way for ground forces to retake Kuwait and chase Saddam Hussein's remaining forces back within their borders and victory is declared in only three days. With Operation Desert Storm, aerial warfare took a giant leap into the future. But Larry Pitts speaks for every man who has ever flown an aircraft into combat. An aerial victory against an enemy airplane is a career highlight for him. In his mind, he did what any fighter pilot would have done had an enemy plane been put in front of him. He relied on his training, engaged the enemy, protected his wingman as he protected him, and came out it alive.

Also, have a look at Iraqi air-to-air victories during Gulf War 1991:





Source: http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victories-iraq-gulf.war.pdf


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## somebozo

deleted..duplicate


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## owais.usmani

*6 PAF F-16s parked at Lajes/Azores; en route to Red Flag:*









Serials,
All F-16B's
90613
90615
90616
92618
92620
92623
Supporting tankers,
KC-135's
57-1454
62-3519/D


http://www.scramble.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=423194&sid=efa7d68970ad738252812e83b34fa31e#p423194

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## Qasibr

owais.usmani said:


> *6 PAF F-16s parked at Lajes/Azores; en route to Red Flag:*
> 
> Serials,
> All F-16B's
> 90613
> 90615
> 90616
> 92618
> 92620
> 92623
> Supporting tankers,
> KC-135's
> 57-1454
> 62-3519/D
> 
> 
> http://www.scramble.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=423194&sid=efa7d68970ad738252812e83b34fa31e#p423194



Hey which aircraft are those, in the foreground?


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## TOPGUN

Qasibr said:


> Hey which aircraft are those, in the foreground?



I belive tornado's..

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## Rocky rock

salam well friend's f-16/B will participate in red flag excercise!


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## Koga Ryu

TOPGUN said:


> I belive tornado's..


---------------------
Those are Saudis Tornado's.


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## TOPGUN

Koga Ryu said:


> ---------------------
> Those are Saudis Tornado's.



Perhaps they are i don't know .. i was asked what kind of aircrafts they were and i answered.

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## z9-ec

Pakistani F-16s at Nellis.

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## z9-ec



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## Frankenstein

ahh great


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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## JF-17_Thunder

*Pakistan Air Force arrives at Nellis for first Red Flag​*
Posted 7/17/2010 Updated 7/17/2010 

by Lawrence Crespo
Nellis Public Affairs

7/17/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Members of the Pakistan Air Force arrived at Nellis Air Force Base July 16 to participate in Red Flag 10-4. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots, maintainers and support personnel at the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31. This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. Also participating will be fighter pilots and support personnel from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Royal Saudi Air Force, and the Republic of Singapore Air Force. 

The Pakistan Air Force will also participate in Green Flag 10-9 at Nellis Air Force Base, scheduled for Aug. 6-20. Pakistan Air Force participation in these premier international exercises builds international air force cooperation, interoperability, and mutual support. It is also significant as both a tangible and symbolic demonstration of the deepening U.S.-Pakistan strategic relationship.

Pakistan Air Force arrives at Nellis for first Red Flag

---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 AM ----------







NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- A Pakistan Air Force crew chief chalks an F-16 upon arrival for Red Flag 10-4 July 16. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots, maintainers and support personnel at Nellis Air Force Base for the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31. This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)


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## JF-17_Thunder

*what does "griffins" mean on the tail of these f-16s?*


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## Luftwaffe

Griffins is the Squadron Name.

Griffin is a mythical Creature. The name itself is powerful masculine type.
The griffin, griffon, or gryphon (Latin: gryphus) is a legendary creature with the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle. 

I've named atleast 3 of my dogs Griffin/Griffon of which 2 were german shepard and one rottweiler lol.

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## TruthSeeker

The Griffin is a roller coaster at Busch Gardens here in Virginia not to far from where I live:


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## razgriz19

Rocky rock said:


> salam well friend's *f-16/B* will participate in red flag excercise!



i believe they are all Bs


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## Zulfiqar



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## marcos98

*PAF- sixth plane no. 92623 arrival.*


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## marcos98

*92 FS F-15S Royal Saudi AF arrivals.*


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## marcos98

*VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B) arrival*





---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

*VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B) arrival*


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## notorious_eagle

[IMG=http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8239/100716f0528c002.jpg][/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## somebozo

Isnt F16 manned by single person crew??? Why do i see two people?
EDIT:
because its a B version. Dual seat


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## ice_man

owcc said:


> I didnt say yur tactics are inferior i just said they r not superior thats all,and all people go to red flag for a good experience and I am sure yu will get it there.



I LOVE BEING UNDERESTIMATED BY indians!!! IT will be a SHOCK to the indians when they come up against us!!! so yes carry on underestimating us it will work for our advantage!!


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## ice_man

razgriz19 said:


> i believe they are all Bs



wait a second have these gone through the MLUs??? or are the the old blk 15s????


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## Join

ice_man said:


> I LOVE BEING UNDERESTIMATED BY indians!!! IT will be a SHOCK to the indians when they come up against us!!! so yes carry on underestimating us it will work for our advantage!!



When You can overestimate Yourself, it makes all sense In us Underestimating you*, if at all we are*.....


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## gaurish

ice_man said:


> I LOVE BEING UNDERESTIMATED BY indians!!! IT will be a SHOCK to the indians when they come up against us!!! so yes carry on underestimating us it will work for our advantage!!



PAF wont be fighting with Indian PDF members which by your terms are underestimating PAF...


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## ice_man

^^  i seem to have put salt on some wounds here!!! but yes its ok keep believing what you want!! whe IAF went to RED FLAG they thought they had qualified to go there ON MERIT!!! 

please boys let's not derail this thread!! keep feeling strong about yourself and your airforce i wish your media felt the same way as you though


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## Join

ice_man said:


> ^^  i seem to have put salt on some wounds here!!! but yes its ok keep believing what you want!! whe IAF went to RED FLAG they thought they had qualified to go there ON MERIT!!!
> 
> please boys let's not derail this thread!! keep feeling strong about yourself and your airforce i wish your media felt the same way as you though



You are going there with F-16's , even if You have all out friendly fire, US pilot would say , they had awsome precision and an Unmatched Quality as Your F-16, is first of all theirs and Secondly its participating in MMRCA

Next about Indian participation, A US guy criticizing a Russian stuff is Not something new.... 

So take a chill pill, concentrate on topic Buddy


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## Manticore

more f16b s = more [twice] pilots gaining first hand experience in red flag


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## Chogy

ANTIBODY said:


> more f16b s = more [twice] pilots gaining first hand experience in red flag



That was my first thought, flying the "Tubs" (2-seat) allows for a greater experience overall.

The only problem is that for those used to flying alone, which is standard for F-16, F-15, F-18, having a guy in back shrieking "THERE! THERE! 7 O'CLOCK LOW, two ship, break! No wait... Pitch left, don't do that, NO, come back right! What are you doing!!" (for example) is unbelievably irritating, and having that guy-in-back input to the fight can actually be worse than having nobody there at all.

Sometimes, it is best to tell the guy in back "This is my sortie. Don't say anything unless we are about to get gunned, or crash. Thank you."

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## mjnaushad

Chogy said:


> That was my first thought, flying the "Tubs" (2-seat) allows for a greater experience overall.
> 
> The only problem is that for those used to flying alone, which is standard for F-16, F-15, F-18, having a guy in back shrieking "*THERE! THERE! 7 O'CLOCK LOW, two ship, break! No wait... Pitch left, don't do that, NO, come back right! What are you doing!!"* (for example) is unbelievably irritating, and having that guy-in-back input to the fight can actually be worse than having nobody there at all.
> 
> Sometimes, it is best to tell the guy in back "This is my sortie. Don't say anything unless we are about to get gunned, or crash. Thank you."




Hahahahaha


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## blain2

This thread is a STICKY now. To all of the Indian members (and Pakistani too), please keep India out of this discussion. Just stick to the PAF, articles, photos, videos etc. pertaining to the event. PAF is not at RF so we can stick our thumbs at anyone. They are there to learn to inter-operate and enhance their own training, tactics etc.

Thank you!

I am not sure if these have been posted or not, but for consolidation sake around the RF topic, let me do so here:
*
PAF F-16s en-route to Red Flag being provided fuel via IFR by USAF Tankers:*
http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/IMG_1552&#37;20AAR Red Flag.jpg
http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP38-17AtlanticOcean.jpg
http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP37-17AtlanticOcean.jpg
http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/100717-32.jpg


*PAF pilots at Nellis:*
http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-002.jpg

*Airmen/Ground crew @ Nellis:*
http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-032.jpg
http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-034.jpg
http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-038.jpg

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## blain2

Chogy said:


> That was my first thought, flying the "Tubs" (2-seat) allows for a greater experience overall.
> 
> The only problem is that for those used to flying alone, which is standard for F-16, F-15, F-18, having a guy in back shrieking "THERE! THERE! 7 O'CLOCK LOW, two ship, break! No wait... Pitch left, don't do that, NO, come back right! What are you doing!!" (for example) is unbelievably irritating, and having that guy-in-back input to the fight can actually be worse than having nobody there at all.
> 
> Sometimes, it is best to tell the guy in back "This is my sortie. Don't say anything unless we are about to get gunned, or crash. Thank you."



Choggy, 

No option to eject the GIBS only?  

I am joking but not without inspiration as in here. See around 4:10.


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## Manticore

blain2 said:


> *PAF pilots at Nellis:*
> http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-002.jpg



sir , would you be able to provide names etc -- thanking you

i can name some of them , generally they look quite experienced bunch --


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## blain2

A quick look shows GC Javad Saeed right in the middle (and the right person to be at RF with the other pilots). He was the point man for our very first deployments at Anatolian Eagle as well. Others can chime in with other names.

It seems this is a long trip for the Griffins. After RF, they will participate in Green Flag which, in light of the close air support operations being undertaken by the PAF, would come in very handy.


---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

[/COLOR]*Pakistan Air Force arrives at Nellis for first Red Flag*

Posted 7/17/2010 Updated 7/17/2010 Email story Print story

by Lawrence Crespo
Nellis Public Affairs

7/17/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Members of the Pakistan Air Force arrived at Nellis Air Force Base July 16 to participate in Red Flag 10-4. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots, maintainers and support personnel at the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31. This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. Also participating will be fighter pilots and support personnel from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Royal Saudi Air Force, and the Republic of Singapore Air Force. 
*
The Pakistan Air Force will also participate in Green Flag 10-9 at Nellis Air Force Base, scheduled for Aug. 6-20.* Pakistan Air Force participation in these premier international exercises builds international air force cooperation, interoperability, and mutual support. It is also significant as both a tangible and symbolic demonstration of the deepening U.S.-Pakistan strategic relationship.

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## Manticore

Air Warrior transforms into new Green Flag 



> NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. (AFPN) -- With the ever-changing fight in the war on terrorism, thus goes the Air Force with the incarnation, or re-incarnation, of Green Flag.
> 
> The Air Warrior exercises here and at Barksdale Air Force Base, La., have officially become the Air Force's premier pre-deployment exercises for Air Combat Command flying units who perform close-air support and precision-guided munitions delivery. They are now known as Green Flag West (Nellis) and Green Flag East (Barksdale).
> 
> "The mission changed to emphasize the unique aspects of Operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom, where the Army and Air Force missions are closely related in air-to-ground combat," said Lt. Col. Phil Barks, 549th Combat Training Squadron commander at Nellis.
> 
> The Air Force previously had a Green Flag, which focused on electronic warfare, but it was later integrated into Red Flag. The new Green Flag is geared toward the current ground fight and the Air Force partnership with ground forces.
> 
> "In the past, Air Warrior has focused mostly on traditional close-air-support missions. But, with the current situation on the ground, our Airmen are being called upon to provide support across a broad range of missions in an irregular warfare environment," Colonel Barks said.
> 
> As the Green Flag West host, the 549th CTS' mission is to provide air support to ground forces deployed to the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif. The squadron's counterpart, the 548th CTS at Barksdale AFB, provides the same support for the Joint Readiness Training Center at Fort Polk, La. NTC and JRTC have been the Army's mission rehearsal exercises for several years.
> 
> The Air Force is using the Green Flags to provide concurrent training to Airmen and prepare them for the types of missions and units they will support during war.
> 
> "Our objective is to take the lessons learned over the past five years of conflict and provide the warfighter with the tools and training needed to better fight the war on terror," said Col. Thomas Webster, Joint Air to Ground Operations Group commander.
> 
> Both Green Flag West and Green Flag East fall under the JAGOG, 57th Wing at Nellis. There are three substantial changes that transform Air Warrior into Green Flag, Colonel Barks said.
> 
> "First, we will change the scope of the exercise," Colonel Barks said. "So deploying forces will have an easier transition into the war. We will emphasize the unique aspects of the fight and special preparation for deployment, frequently working with the Army units which will deploy during the same timeframe."
> 
> Secondly, he said that the mission will change from training aircrews on traditional close-air support to an exercise that stresses integration with Army maneuver units across a broad spectrum of activity, with special emphasis on counterinsurgency and irregular warfare.
> 
> Finally, the squadrons must change the scheduling process to accommodate units already identified to deploy. No small task, so a new squadron is stepping in to help.
> 
> "The goal (of the new squadron) is integration of the (air and space expeditionary force) construct into an actual method to have that force ready to rotate into the current fight and to be prepared for a contingency that we're not expecting but that might happen any day," said Maj. Gen. Stephen M. Goldfein, U.S. Air Force Warfare Center commander.
> 
> "I stood up a new squadron (Sept.29), the 561st Joint Tactics Squadron, who will be lining up the new tactics and developing a rotation for units to go," General Goldfein said. "(The squadron will be) tied to our major exercises like Green Flag and Red Flag, all designed to get our units ready to cycle smoothly in and out of the fight, prepared to do what the joint force air component commander needs them to do."
> 
> Green Flag West will occur approximately 10 times per year; during each exercise, more than 5,000 Army troops and joint terminal attack controllers practice and hone their skills in the desert near Barstow, Calif. The 549th CTS works in conjunction with the 12th CTS at Fort Irwin.
> 
> Along with the Army troops, multiple coalition aircraft aid in the exercise.



Air Warrior transforms into new Green Flag


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## Chogy

blain2 said:


> Choggy,
> 
> No option to eject the GIBS only?
> 
> I am joking but not without inspiration as in here. See around 4:10.



Haha! Unfortunately the F-16 would lose it's single canopy, subjecting the guy-in-front to some harsh winds. I've often wondered what the F-16 handbook has to say about "Loss of canopy inflight." A normal windscreen (Like F-15) protects the pilot from wind blast. But I think it's worth it (no canopy bow) to get that superb visibility.

To be a proper GIB or WSO requires a lot of training, and partners hone their communications and interaction skills to avoid confusing each other. In theory, any F-14 pilot could fly with any F-14 WSO and do well, but when guys work together, they learn each other's nuances, and you can bet that going into combat, they'd want to pair with the guy they've trained the most with.

Plus, a regular GIB is itching to help, to make a difference, and uncoordinated, bad input is worse than no input. It can cause the jet to "waffle"... look undecided or hesitant, while they sort out what they are saying to each other. And that can be fatal.

I find this PAF visit to Nellis to be really exciting for everyone involved. Not only are they going to take back great training, I am confident they will also take back fantastic memories of a wonderful time. Nellis AFB knows how to host. There is a lot of fighter history there in a world-class facility. And in the grand scheme of things, PAF and USAF cooperation will yield big dividends for both. Fighter tactics are constantly evolving, and I will almost guarantee that the PAF pilots will be able to show something new, some unique way to operate the F-16, that will surprise the opposition.

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## behram

blain2 said:


> A quick look shows GC Javad Saeed right in the middle (and the right person to be at RF with the other pilots). He was the point man for our very first deployments at Anatolian Eagle as well. Others can chime in with other names.
> 
> It seems this is a long trip for the Griffins. After RF, they will participate in Green Flag which, in light of the close air support operations being undertaken by the PAF, would come in very handy.
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]*Pakistan Air Force arrives at Nellis for first Red Flag*
> 
> Posted 7/17/2010 Updated 7/17/2010 Email story Print story
> 
> by Lawrence Crespo
> Nellis Public Affairs
> 
> 7/17/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Members of the Pakistan Air Force arrived at Nellis Air Force Base July 16 to participate in Red Flag 10-4. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots, maintainers and support personnel at the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31. This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. Also participating will be fighter pilots and support personnel from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Royal Saudi Air Force, and the Republic of Singapore Air Force.
> *
> The Pakistan Air Force will also participate in Green Flag 10-9 at Nellis Air Force Base, scheduled for Aug. 6-20.* Pakistan Air Force participation in these premier international exercises builds international air force cooperation, interoperability, and mutual support. It is also significant as both a tangible and symbolic demonstration of the deepening U.S.-Pakistan strategic relationship.



It will also be Group Captain Javad Saeed's last time he will be flying, as he's going to be replaced by the new OC Flying, Group Captain Irfan Ahmed. Can't believe though that this guy, Javad, is the same guy in this pic, last on the extreme right of the V.
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/img016.jpg

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## haroonn

behram said:


> It will also be Group Captain Javad Saeed's last time he will be flying, as he's going to be replaced by the new OC Flying, Group Captain Irfan Ahmed.



HHmm... is he OC Flying Mushaf ? If he is the OC Flying now then Haseeb Piracha must be posted somewhere else as he was the OC Flying 38 Wing in 2008-9. I also read somewhere that Javad had some medical related issues and may not be flying again ????? Was this true?


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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> This thread is a STICKY now. To all of the Indian members (and Pakistani too), please keep India out of this discussion. Just stick to the PAF, articles, photos, videos etc. pertaining to the event. PAF is not at RF so we can stick our thumbs at anyone. They are there to learn to inter-operate and enhance their own training, tactics etc.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> I am not sure if these have been posted or not, but for consolidation sake around the RF topic, let me do so here:
> *
> PAF F-16s en-route to Red Flag being provided fuel via IFR by USAF Tankers:*
> http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/IMG_1552 AAR Red Flag.jpg
> http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP38-17AtlanticOcean.jpg
> http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP37-17AtlanticOcean.jpg
> http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/100717-32.jpg
> 
> 
> *PAF pilots at Nellis:*
> http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-002.jpg
> 
> *Airmen/Ground crew @ Nellis:*
> http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-032.jpg
> http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-034.jpg
> http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100716-F-0528C-038.jpg



interesting - all 4 F-16s are the 2-seat B models!


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## fatman17

Interdiction 

92 FS, RSAF (F-15S) 
9 MRS, PAF (F-16B) 
425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG) 
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar [F-18] 

looks like PAF will be involved in 'interdiction' missions during RF-10-04


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## aliyusuf

Join said:


> You are going there with F-16's , even if You have all out friendly fire, US pilot would say , they had awsome precision and an Unmatched Quality as Your F-16, is first of all theirs and Secondly its participating in MMRCA
> 
> Next about Indian participation, A US guy criticizing a Russian stuff is Not something new....
> 
> So take a chill pill, concentrate on topic Buddy



Actually if you go thru the 2 part video of USAF Col Terence Fornof on Red Flag 2008, available on youtube, you will find that he wasn't being critical of the SU-30MKI or Russian Technology (per se) but giving an analysis from his view point. He fully explained why the fratricide occurred from the Indian side. He was however slightly less than flattering on the way IAF pilots were utilizing the MKI. He even at one point says that the SU-30 would prove to be a handful for the legacy US teen fighters once the Indian Pilots learn to use their machine better.

So actually you should be following your own advice and chill out my friend and not take it personally.


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## Super Falcon

why indian airforce not been in this years red flag exercise and what type of fighter jets usa airforces uses to counter our F 16 block 52


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## Join

Super Falcon said:


> why indian airforce not been in this years red flag exercise and what type of fighter jets usa airforces uses to counter our F 16 block 52



Dint You see the US Pilot Criticizing the Suk 30 MKI and The Indian pilots??? Well thats why...


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## Ishan

Super Falcon said:


> why indian airforce not been in this years red flag exercise and what type of fighter jets usa airforces uses to counter our F 16 block 52



I guess 100s of crores were spent to send the Entire Team to Red Flag.. So I dont think this can happen Every times.. Did Pakistan Pay for the Exercises ???


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## aliyusuf

Join said:


> Dint You see the US Pilot Criticizing the Suk 30 MKI and The Indian pilots??? Well thats why...



No criticism of MKI apart from saying it's not as good as F-22 and the matter about FOD. I hardly call that criticism. F-22 is better (period). Yes he criticized IAF pilots in the sense that those who went there didn't use the MKI properly. He was appreciative of the MiG-21 Bisons though.

Regards


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## aliyusuf

Ishan said:


> I guess 100s of crores were spent to send the Entire Team to Red Flag.. So I dont think this can happen Every times.. Did Pakistan Pay for the Exercises ???



Yes they did ... that is why they are there.

Regards


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## Join

aliyusuf said:


> No criticism of MKI apart from saying it's not as good as F-22 and the matter about FOD. I hardly call that criticism. F-22 is better (period). Yes he criticized IAF pilots in the sense that those who went there didn't use the MKI properly. He was appreciative of the MiG-21 Bisons though.
> 
> Regards



nop, see the video once more, he was complaining of its avionics and warfare suit.... its radar range etc etc


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## aliyusuf

Join said:


> nop, see the video once more, he was complaining of its avionics and warfare suit.... its radar range etc etc



That was in the context of a questioner's query whether the radar was an AESA. I hardly call that criticism, he didn't say anything negative about the avionics suite. If anything, he confirmed that the MKI holds an edge over the F-15s, F-16s & the F-18s. I have both the videos in my collection. What he criticized were the tactics employed by some of the IAF pilots.

I know what I am saying. Watch both the videos once more in-sequence. 

Regards


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## fatman17

this stickey is for PAF discussions only - please!!!

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## aliyusuf

fatman17 said:


> this stickey is for PAF discussions only - please!!!



Sorry for inadvertently getting carried away.

Thanks for the reminder.


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## mean_bird

PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag

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## Chogy

Fratricide is embarrassing in training, horrifying in real life, and is as inevitable as the sunrise. The primary causes of air-air "frat" are a combination of low situational awareness, training methodology, and occasionally data-link weaknesses.

During the debrief, they project the entire air war onto a giant screen using recorded ACMI data. You can see every aircraft, every shot fired. And when you watch a member of a flight turn and hammer another member of the same flight, it is with a sickening feeling and great embarrassment, as 100's of your peers are watching it all.

Does anyone know what the PAF F-16B "loadout" will be for its counter-air missions?

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## fatman17

for AD we have a variety of sidewinders. for Air-2-Surface we have the Maverick A/B/C and the Harm-88A/B. we have recently been supplied the 500lb and 2000lb JDAMs and kits for the interdiction mission.

i guess the F-16B load-mix will be from the above ordnance.


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## blain2

FM sahib, I think Chogy's question is specific to CAO profile. For that PAF will probably simulate AIM-120s (2?) and AIM-9L/Ms (2?) given that these are the AAMs we would have in our inventory.


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## Windjammer

PAF NO 9 Squadron F-16s at Nellis for Red Flag.

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## Windjammer




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## z9-ec

*Red Flag 10-04 kicks off July 19*

7/19/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Southern Nevada residents may notice increased military aircraft activity as the Air Force conducts Red Flag 10-4 July 19-30.

Red Flag is a realistic combat training exercise involving the air forces of the United States and its allies. The exercise is hosted north of Las Vegas on the Nevada Test and Training Range--the U.S. Air Force's premier military training area with more than 12,000 square miles of airspace and 2.9 million acres of land. With 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world, Nellis and the NTTR are the home of a "peacetime battlefield," providing combat air forces with the ability to train to fight together, survive together and win together.

The 414th Combat Training Squadron is responsible for executing Red Flag and the exercise is just one of a series of advanced training programs administered at Nellis AFB and on the NTTR by organizations assigned to the U.S. Air Force Warfare Center.

*More than 70 aircraft will depart Nellis twice a day, in the mid-morning and again around 5 p.m. Aircraft may remain in the air for up to four hours.* The flying times are scheduled to accommodate the other flying missions at Nellis and provide Red Flag participants with valuable training in planning and executing a wide-variety of combat missions. 

The exercise will include U.S. forces aircraft from Nevada, North Carolina, California, South Carolina, Washington, Oklahoma and Kansas flying F-15s, F-16s, EA-6Bs, EA-18Gs, E-3s, F/A-18s, MC-130s and KC-135s. In addition to U.S. aircraft, the Royal Saudi Air Force will take part with the F-15S and the Pakistan Air Force will participate in their first-ever Red Flag with F-16Bs. The Republic of Singapore Air Force detachment at Luke AFB, Ariz. will also be participating with F-16CGs and NATO is providing additional E-3 support.


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## blain2

Alright my friends. Are you guys ready for something funny and interesting?

Go here. This is the URL for Nellis' Red Flag operations.

Once there, click on Pakistan Air Force in the participants list. Then take a guess where that URL takes you.. http://www.defence.pk/pakistan-air-force/

Enjoy and congrats to this site for being selected by Nellis AFB/Red Flag for the introduction to PAF.

Unfortunately the article they link to is a poorly written one.

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## S_O_C_O_M

blain2 said:


> Alright my friends. Are you guys ready for something funny and interesting?
> 
> Go here. This is the URL for Nellis' Red Flag operations.
> 
> Once there, click on Pakistan Air Force in the participants list. Then take a guess where that URL takes you.. Pakistan Air Force : Pakistan Defence
> 
> Enjoy and congrats to this site for being selected by Nellis AFB/Red Flag for the introduction to PAF.
> 
> Unfortunately the article they link to is a poorly written one.



So I guess the U.S. government/military and Pak Air Force knows about PDF.


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## TOPGUN

S_O_C_O_M said:


> So I guess the U.S. government/military and Pak Air Force knows about PDF.



Oh yes prob underwatch ...


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## Chogy

blain2 said:


> FM sahib, I think Chogy's question is specific to CAO profile. For that PAF will probably simulate AIM-120s (2?) and AIM-9L/Ms (2?) given that these are the AAMs we would have in our inventory.



Yes, thank you, I was wondering if they were going to simulate the AIM-120, if the software in these particular F-16B's is set up for it. Unless they are 100% set up and compatible with the AIM-120, they won't properly interface with ACMI and the rest of the range system.

I'm guessing they will always fly with captive AIM-9M, regardless of the mission.


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## blain2

Chogy said:


> Yes, thank you, I was wondering if they were going to simulate the AIM-120, if the software in these particular F-16B's is set up for it. Unless they are 100% set up and compatible with the AIM-120, they won't properly interface with ACMI and the rest of the range system.
> 
> I'm guessing they will always fly with captive AIM-9M, regardless of the mission.



I think even if the aircraft are not upgraded for AIM-120s, I would think PAF could still call Fox3 shots on the basis of pre-agreed upon rules (similar to how the IAF was allowed R-77 shots without having their BVR releases linked through any sort of instrumentation on their MKIs). I think on such occasions, if certain agreed upon parameters are met then the BVR shot is accepted. I would think given how we have conducted exercises in the past with the USAF, it would be similar.

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## Alternative

mean_bird said:


> PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> just a simple question to ask, when were our F-16B's were modified with refueling probes?


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## Super Hornet

Alternative said:


> mean_bird said:
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> just a simple question to ask, when were our F-16B's were modified with refueling probes?
> 
> 
> 
> GUD QSTN??
Click to expand...


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## CaptainKidd

Alternative said:


> mean_bird said:
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> just a simple question to ask, when were our F-16B's were modified with refueling probes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2007-08 i think.
Click to expand...


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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> FM sahib, I think Chogy's question is specific to CAO profile. For that PAF will probably simulate AIM-120s (2?) and AIM-9L/Ms (2?) given that these are the AAMs we would have in our inventory.



i was thinking the same but then what does an army guy know abt counter-air-ops!


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## fatman17

Alternative said:


> mean_bird said:
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> just a simple question to ask, when were our F-16B's were modified with refueling probes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the plumbing was always there in the original 40 a/c but never activated - my info is that the 14 a/c delivered between 06-08 had the refueling probes active (as they were being used by the USAF).
Click to expand...

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## ice_man

Alternative said:


> mean_bird said:
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16s enroute to Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> just a simple question to ask, when were our F-16B's were modified with refueling probes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i asked this question before have these F-16s been MLU yet or not? or is it just the probes installed
Click to expand...


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## behram

Chogy said:


> Yes, thank you, I was wondering if they were going to simulate the AIM-120, if the software in these particular F-16B's is set up for it. Unless they are 100% set up and compatible with the AIM-120, they won't properly interface with ACMI and the rest of the range system.
> 
> I'm guessing they will always fly with captive AIM-9M, regardless of the mission.



PAF used to simulate AMRAAM in their CCS course, only on F-16s. Don't know if they still do.

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## ice_man

behram said:


> PAF used to simulate AMRAAM in their CCS course, only on F-16s. Don't know if they still do.



they still do! infact they used to learn evasive actions from an enemy BVR shot!! so yes our pilots are pretty skilled at evasive techniques of BVR what they now need is the actual use of BVRs to level the playing field which is heavily tipped against them!


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## aliyusuf

Aren't these F-16Bs from the 14 EDA ones that we received during 2006-08 and are Block-15OCUs? These fighters have upgraded engines, radar & better avionics as compared to the Block-15s from our original 40. As per F-16.Net (http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html) these are already AMRAAM enabled. 

So simulating AMRAAMs shouldn't be an issue I should think.

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## behram

ice_man said:


> they still do! infact they used to learn evasive actions from an enemy BVR shot!! so yes our pilots are pretty skilled at evasive techniques of BVR what they now need is the actual use of BVRs to level the playing field which is heavily tipped against them!



PAF has been using BVR tactics for years, since the F-16s arrived in 80s, they have been learning how to use the AIM-7 Sparrow. The AIM-210 was added later to the CCS course.


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> i was thinking the same but then what does an army guy know abt counter-air-ops!



You know A LOT FM sahib!  We are always learning from you.

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

American's in RED FLAG !




Pakistani's in RED FLAG !

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## Chogy

aliyusuf said:


> Aren't these F-16Bs from the 14 EDA ones that we received during 2006-08 and are Block-15OCUs? These fighters have upgraded engines, radar & better avionics as compared to the Block-15s from our original 40. As per F-16.Net (http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html) these are already AMRAAM enabled.
> 
> So simulating AMRAAMs shouldn't be an issue I should think.



If this is the case, then it is a good deal... software-enabling is vastly different from simply calling a shot, because when the jet is set up for a missile, a number of parameters are monitored during the time of flight. You have signal quality for semi-active shots, f-pole and break-X cues, and other cues required by the actual AIM-120, that validate the shot. This is vastly different from locking up some target at a max range, pushing a button, and calling him "dead", which is often how such missiles are simulated without correct software integration.

Further, I don't know the state of ACMI these days. It has probably come a long ways, and I am guessing that the onboard software integrates with the ACMI pods, so that shots, time-of-flight, etc are properly displayed for debrief purposes.

Without that, you have some guy piping up in the debrief "Well, that aircraft was dead, even though it doesn't show it. I shot him at max range with my missile, but since it isn't correctly integrated with ACMI, we don't see it. Trust me, he's dead." And it utterly skews the results of the mission.

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## Super Falcon




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## blain2

Chogy said:


> If this is the case, then it is a good deal... software-enabling is vastly different from simply calling a shot, because when the jet is set up for a missile, a number of parameters are monitored during the time of flight. You have signal quality for semi-active shots, f-pole and break-X cues, and other cues required by the actual AIM-120, that validate the shot. This is vastly different from locking up some target at a max range, pushing a button, and calling him "dead", which is often how such missiles are simulated without correct software integration.
> 
> Further, I don't know the state of ACMI these days. It has probably come a long ways, and I am guessing that the onboard software integrates with the ACMI pods, so that shots, time-of-flight, etc are properly displayed for debrief purposes.
> 
> Without that, you have some guy piping up in the debrief "Well, that aircraft was dead, even though it doesn't show it. I shot him at max range with my missile, but since it isn't correctly integrated with ACMI, we don't see it. Trust me, he's dead." And it utterly skews the results of the mission.



I think they use a couple of things to ensure claims are awarded carefully. In addition to the ACMI pods, the AIS cub-component on the ACMI pods is used to triangulate where the aircraft was in the air relative to the other aircraft and the AIS pod allows verification to be made even if shots are being called verbally upon meeting certain pre-set parameters after verifying where the aircraft was at the time of taking the shot.

PAF has had an ACMI range for quite some time in Pakistan. PAF worked with Aselsan on improving this range to attain the same specifications as the ones at Turkey's Konya range. Since this was a while ago and PAF has been to quite a few multinational exercises at NATO standard ranges, I believe the aircraft have a more evolved method of calling shots and getting those analyzed during the debriefs by displaying uplinked and uploaded information gathered by the tracking towers at the ranges which communicate with the ACMI/AIS pods.

I may be wrong, but hopefully we will get a bit more insight from some insiders (since PAF will most likely not discuss the exercise) once this is all over.

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## Quwa

When watching videos about Red Flag, I noticed that the U.S. was using ACMI-type systems with computer-generated colour imagery of terrain, fighters, weapons-launched, etc. Was that a separate system to the ACMI, or an advanced ACMI exclusive to the U.S? Or is not exclusive and also available (commercially) to PAF?

To see what I'm talking about, check out this video from 2:04:

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## blain2

Mark,

With some difference in the graphics, most ACMI collected information is represented in a similar manner and the CCS (which actually conducts debriefs) is no exception.

Our own ACMI range has been completed with considerable indigenous development and also collaboration with the Turks (Aselsan I believe was contracted to do this work).

Wiki actually has a pretty good read on the ACMI complex:

Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) systems record an aircraft's in-flight data. They are often used by the military for aerial combat training and analysis.

ACMI systems usually include 4 major subsystems.
[edit] Subsystems

Control and Computation
The Control and Computation Subsystem (CCS) is usually a rack-mounted personal computer running applications that calculate Time-Space-Position-Information (TSPI).

Transmission Instrumentation
The Transmission Instrumentation Subsystem (TIS) is firmware running at or near a communications tower on the range the aircraft are flying around. The TIS will have 1-9 remote interrogators (remotes) scattered throughout the range. One of these remotes is at the TIS, and is referred to as the "remote at Master". Each remote interrogates an AIS pod (see below) loaded on each aircraft flying on range, and receives the response and relays it to the TIS.

Airborne Instrumentation
Antiquated ACMI systems triangulated each pod's position and relayed that TSPI back to the CCS. Modern ACMI systems no longer triangulate; instead, a GPS unit is installed in each Airborne Instrumentation Subsystem (AIS) pod to calculate its own position, thereby relieving the CCS of the triangulation algorithm. The CCS now gets a complete TSPI message from the AIS pod via the TIS, and forwards this data to a display system.

Advanced Display and Debriefing or Individual Combat Aircrew Display
Advanced Display and Debriefing Subsystems (ADDS) are quickly vanishing and being replaced by Individual Combat Aircrew Display Systems (ICADS) because the ICADS software can run on any compatible personal computer. ICADS is the display software that receives data from the CCS and displays it in a three-dimensional graphical user interface.

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## Quwa

blain2 said:


> Mark,
> 
> With some difference in the graphics, most ACMI collected information is represented in a similar manner and the CCS (which actually conducts debriefs) is no exception.
> 
> Our own ACMI range has been completed with considerable indigenous development and also collaboration with the Turks (Aselsan I believe was contracted to do this work).


Thanks. IMO this exposure to Red Flag and Green Flag will reinforce & improve PAF's own training methods in the coming years. A dream would be to see the mainstay of PAF go through Red Flag level of intensity through quarterly (4 per year) exercises of this nature held at home - perhaps an evolved version of Indus Viper. For example, conduct 2-3 strictly local exercises and 1-2 multinational program with NATO (U.S & Turkey) as well as regional partners (KSA, UAE, Oman, Bahrain, etc).

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## TOPGUN

Do we know how many hours are flown in the excrise's?


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## Karakoram8 Eagle




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## Super Hornet

AGRESSORS FLY IN CLOSE FORMATION DURING RED FLAG 10-2

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## blain2

A little story about our F-16s at Lajes. Thanks to the Americans for their great hospitality!
*
Lajes Airmen support Pakistan air force on first deployment to Red Flag*

Posted 7/20/2010 Updated 7/20/2010 Email story Print story



by Staff Sgt. Olufemi Owolabi
65th Air Base Wing Public Affairs

7/20/2010 - LAJES FIELD, Azores -- On their way to the U.S. for the first time to sharpen their close-air-support skills, six F-16 fighter jets from Pakistan and their crew members took a quick stop at Lajes Field July 14-15 before heading to Red Flag at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.

About 100 Pakistan air force pilots, maintainers and support personnel, accompanied by a U.S. tanker, are attending Red Flag, a premier, large force employment and integration exercise.

As soon as they touched down, Airmen of the 65th Operations Support Squadron were on standby and ready to foster bilateral relations with the international delegates.

The Pakistan aircrew arrival happened just a few hours after 12 Italian fighter jets and more than 30 support personnel passed through Lajes. The international aircrews offered the 65th OSS Airmen an opportunity to act as ambassadors for the Air Force and to provide support for these expeditionary forces.

The Italian team was on its way home after some days of flying sorties and coordinating air-attack in a Red Flag exercise at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, while the Pakistan jets and crew members were on their way to a similar exercise at Nellis AFB.

"This visit to Lajes is historic to us and the Pakistan crew, because we are hosting them here for the first time. It is also very crucial in the career of the Pakistan air force since it is their first deployment to the exercise," said Tech. Sgt. Jose Ramon, coronet liaison technician with the 65th OSS. "By welcoming and giving them a world-class support, we are ensuring that their short stay here is a wonderful and lasting experience."

As soon as the Lajes team learned the aircraft and personnel were coming in, Airmen here ensured the crew's billeting, locker and food arrangements were made. They quickly dispersed the necessary aerospace ground equipment support the jets needed, such as jet fuel and lavatory services, among others.

"We did everything we could to make their stay here a memorable one," Sergeant Ramon said.

Even though the stop at Lajes was ahead of schedule, this didn't hinder the quality of service the Airmen rendered to their visitors.

Supporting the Pakistan and Italian crew members, at the same time, allowed the Airmen here to showcase how flexible and ready they are when it comes to the mission. When a mission slips, everything that is already planned for might not be taking into account anymore. And the host team had to adjust for any changes the visitors might have.

"It affects everything down to billeting reservations, setting of spots for the aircraft and coordinating with other agencies such as LRS, and ATOC," said Tech. Sgt. Richard Reif, 65th OSS. "But in the end, we still get the job done (no matter the situation)."

Sergeant said that since Lajes is the stopping point for smaller aircraft trying to make it across the Atlantic, Airmen here have a sense of urgency and readiness and they "make it happen."

"In no time, we took the jets off the runway and showed them where to park," said Staff Sgt. Sean McGrath, 65th OSS transient alert.

While some Airmen of the transient alert team, who are mostly crew chiefs, said they see this visit as an opportunity to do what they are trained to do. Some said it allows them to interact with the military of other nations while stationed at Lajes.

"Dealing with international air force members, even though there could be a complete culture difference, is very exciting because it creates an avenue for us to find a common ground to communicate and learn from each other," Sergeant Ramon said. "Such a visit helps us to learn from what they do best and for them to see how we do business."

Making sure the pilots and their crew members want to keep coming back is a goal of the 65th OSS Airmen.

"We'd like crew that pass through Lajes to know that our service here is first-class," said Maj. Robert "Bob" Sweeney, 65th OSS director of operations. "We would also like them to come back here knowing that they will be well taken care of, no matter what time of the day, the weather and where they are going ... whether they are heading to the States or overseas toward deployments or their countries, we would want them to feel like this could be a second home for them."

According to Major Sweeney, the smile on the visitors' faces when they left Lajes shows that the Airmen here are mission focused, and they derive a lot of pride in getting the job done.

The Pakistan team arrived safely at Nellis on July 16 and will be participating in the Red Flag scheduled from July 17-31.

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## blain2

Mark Sien said:


> Thanks. IMO this exposure to Red Flag and Green Flag will reinforce & improve PAF's own training methods in the coming years. A dream would be to see the mainstay of PAF go through Red Flag level of intensity through quarterly (4 per year) exercises of this nature held at home - perhaps an evolved version of Indus Viper. For example, conduct 2-3 strictly local exercises and 1-2 multinational program with NATO (U.S & Turkey) as well as regional partners (KSA, UAE, Oman, Bahrain, etc).



I think the concept of Ex. Saffron Bandit is similar. CCS puts various squadrons through their paces during the exercise and this exercise is run on a fairly regular basis which ensures all combat sqns are rotated through this program and remain current with the concepts and doctrine as envisaged.



> Saffron Bandit is designed on the building block concept. It progressively increases in complexity, and various elements are added with every mission to provide a complete threat scenario towards the final stages of the programme. The assets are employed in offence versus defence set up with the respective weapons system taking up their prescribed role. Some of the missions are planned to culminate with actual weapon deliveries against tactical targets at the live firing range.
> 
> The exercise is chalked out in an area around the PAF's tactical training range. All targets are selected within a specified area. A bomb line is demarcated as a boundary between the offensive and the defensive areas of employment.
> 
> The threats employed against attacking targets vary with every mission. In the initial phase of interdiction attack, the AAA and SAM are simulated so as to enable the crew to cope with simpler employment considerations. In the subsequent missions the defences are in the form of low level radar, with only a limited track length and a pair of interceptors. The subsequent missions entail an integrated defence system involving AAA, Mistral, Crotale, Low Level Radars with progressively increased track length and pair of interceptors increasing. ECM/ESM support is provided by Falcon DA-20 aircraft and the types of missions include both offensive as well as defensive counter air operations.



In my opinion, PAF's version of Red Flag is Ex. Saffron Bandit. X-man can probably add to this as he has some very interesting insights into the matter.

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## fatman17

behram said:


> PAF has been using BVR tactics for years, since the F-16s arrived in 80s, they have been learning how to use the* AIM-7 Sparrow.* The AIM-210 was added later to the CCS course.



the cat is out-of-the-bag - this confirms to me that the PAF has had the AIM-7 Sparrow in its inventory (also confirmed by two sources, Jane's and AFMI)

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## x_man

blain2 said:


> I think the concept of Ex. Saffron Bandit is similar. CCS puts various squadrons through their paces during the exercise and this exercise is run on a fairly regular basis which ensures all combat sqns are rotated through this program and remain current with the concepts and doctrine as envisaged.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, PAF's version of Red Flag is Ex. Saffron Bandit. X-man can probably add to this as he has some very interesting insights into the matter.




*Red flag* was conceived by USAFs legendry Colonel &#8216;Moody&#8217; when the need grew out of the alarming statistic of the Vietnam War. He deduced that if a pilot survived his first ten combat encounters, his chances of surviving a full combat tour would increase by over 300&#37;....So Colonel got this bright idea: if you could provide those first 10 combat missions in a safe training environment, you might lose fewer men and aircrafts when it is time for the real war. ...hence the RF is designed to give every aircrew in a squadron those first 10 missions at Nellis while facing the most talented enemy that one will ever face in real world...


*Green Flag* is a specialised ex and may be called Red flag with &#8216; trons and teeth&#8217;. Instead of practice bombs, jamming and ECM, Green flag used real bombs and full spectrum electronic nastiness.....G Flags only compromises with realism that participants don&#8217;t shoot live ammo at fellow aviators and no planes are allowed to crash and burn...


As for the PAF exercises Saffron Bandit and Hi Mark, to save my typing finger I will quote my own post in another thread..



> HiMark and Saffron Bandit are totally different exercises in terms of setup , duration, deployment of forces and training value.
> 
> SB is only conducted at Sargodha by the CCS staff who acts as coordinator, monitors and judges. Only two squadrons (one Air superiority and the other Surface attack) deploy at Sargodha for a month or so and mostly fly as per the curriculum of CCS. The flying is intense and the debriefs very long and sometime get very HOT. When it comes to claims and awards of the SHOTS, people are ready to grab each other by necks....Its all part of the game. Whatever happens in the debrief rooms: stays in the debrief rooms.
> 
> After a month or so, the two squadrons head back home. The CCS staff compile the results and finalise their reports regarding the performances&#8217; of the previous two squadrons and then gear up to take another fresh two squadrons for another cycle. Hence it takes almost 6 to 7 months until all the PAF squadrons go thru the SB. When last two squadrons depart, the SB culminates and the CCS instructors and staff are once again ready to run the usual CCS course at the school.
> 
> Exercise Hi Mark is huge in terms of deployment and works on totally different concept. Almost every flying and air defence element is deployed at the same time on their war time FOBs and MOBs. *Hi Mark is simulation of war *and planned in the same way in three phases. The preparatory phase, deployment phase and the final show down phase. The concept of operation revolves around Blue Land ( friendly forces) and the Fox Land ( enemy forces).
> 
> Assets are accordingly distributed, borders are marked between BL and FLand , and missions are flown across each other borders from dawn to well into the night. HiMark is more intense and the blue/ foxland treat each other like real enemies for one month or so. HiMark also serves as a joint exercise with other sister arms.



PAFs Ex *Saffron Bandit* is quite close to USAFs Red Flag in the concept of operation...of course we don&#8217;t have USAFs like resources, facilities&#8217; and the effort s. ...but keeping our concept of Ops and our limitation, I think we are doing pretty fine work at our end. 

SB prepares every PAF aircrew pretty well and aims to bring them to the level where an aircrew who comes back from a REAL combat mission should say, &#8216;&#8217; It was just like Saffron Bandit...except the enemy wasn&#8217;t as good.&#8217;&#8217;

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## Super Falcon

well can any one post the pics of red flag and the show in uk in this forum please waitting for latest pics and when these exercises will be finished i heared that dutch airforce also came for these exercises


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## SEAL

> Our own ACMI range has been completed with considerable indigenous development and also collaboration with the Turks (Aselsan I believe was contracted to do this work).




I think its Havelsan who developed EHTES/EWTTR system for PAF. 

EWTTR features are :
Various fully instrumented and integrated actual weapons systems,
Various threat emitter simulators,
All weapon systems in the EWTTR offer the following in real-time : Data Collection, Data Recording, Visualization in 3D environment, Artillery and Missile Simulation,
Various post-flight evaluation reports,

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## SQ8

x_man said:


> *Red flag* was ... * It was just like Saffron Bandit...except the enemy wasnt as good*.


Borrowing from a red flag quote I see 
And Most aspects of Green Flag have now been integrated into Red Flag and Green flag is now a dedicated close support exercise with a focus on current anti-terror operations.

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## x_man

santro said:


> Borrowing from a red flag quote I see
> ....



As I said that SB and RF are similar in concept of ops so why not match the quote as well...

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## Super Hornet

Havelsan....yes it is a turkish company...and they designed these for us some of our PAF officer's also did it....
THANX TO THEM....!


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## Super Falcon

why dont someone post the pics of the red flag exercise this topic is about the red flag not about the turkish firm friends if u wanna talk about turkish firm you go to the turkish thread not here


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## DANGER-ZONE

*First time ever that Pakistan Air Force takes 6 of theirs F16B's and go to the Red Flag!! All the 6 PAK F16B's which landed at Lajes on this morning have 'Griffins' inscription on the tail!*

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## Kompromat

danger-zone said:


> *First time ever that Pakistan Air Force takes 6 of theirs F16B's and go to the Red Flag!! All the 6 PAK F16B's which landed at Lajes on this morning have 'Griffins' inscription on the tail!*



Its a smart move - you have two boys in a viper learning from this well needed experience.

In the End of the day when they PAF will walk out of Red Flag it would have Extra Pilots with RedFlag experiance who later will pass on those skills to their fellow pilots.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Blood said:


> Its a smart move - you have two boys in a viper learning from this well needed experience.
> 
> In the End of the day when they PAF will walk out of Red Flag it would have Extra Pilots with RedFlag experiance who later will pass on those skills to their fellow pilots.



yeah ! thats claver move indeed.


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## Super Hornet

THIS is a pic of day2


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## Imran Khan

but its show here hornet bro please fix


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## Super Hornet




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## Super Hornet

Imran Khan said:


> but its show here hornet bro please fix



IM trying sir plz wait


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## Super Hornet




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## Super Hornet




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## DANGER-ZONE

*An interesting view where you can see 3 of 12 Italy AF Tornadoes which are returning home from the Red Flag 2010, and 6 Pakistan Air Force F16B's (92618, 92620, 90615, 90616, 92623, 90613) which stop at Lajes for some fuel and rest while going to the Red Flag 2010!! On the background you can see the Lajes Field Fire Department Headquarters and the secondary Tower.*

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## Super Hornet




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## fazalzubair

Very good it enhance the experience of pakistan air force.


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## Patriot

PAF F16's taking off for Red Flag.Pics Courtesy HaveVoid on F-16.net





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## hataf

Patriot said:


> PAF F16's taking off for Red Flag.Pics Courtesy HaveVoid on F-16.net
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can't see your pics


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## Patriot

Weird - I can see them - I uploaded one pic on another see lemme know if you can see it





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## Super Hornet

Any new pics?


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## Karakoram8 Eagle




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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Patriot said:


> PAF F16's taking off for Red Flag.Pics Courtesy HaveVoid on F-16.net
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Cant see ur pics???


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## behram

Chogy said:


> Fratricide is embarrassing in training, horrifying in real life, and is as inevitable as the sunrise. The primary causes of air-air "frat" are a combination of low situational awareness, training methodology, and occasionally data-link weaknesses.
> 
> During the debrief, they project the entire air war onto a giant screen using recorded ACMI data. You can see every aircraft, every shot fired. And when you watch a member of a flight turn and hammer another member of the same flight, it is with a sickening feeling and great embarrassment, as 100's of your peers are watching it all.
> 
> Does anyone know what the PAF F-16B "loadout" will be for its counter-air missions?



Trust me I know, my dad was shot down by his own leader in the 80s. Brand new F-16 85720 shot down by 85726 on the right wing.


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## z9-ec

Red Flag 10-4














^^ PAF F-16 being refueled

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## z9-ec

Interestingly, Green Flag 10-8 also began in Nevada.

AIM-120 Green Flag 10-8 (same day)






Capt. Mike Seltzer, an F-16 assigned to the 4th Fighter Squadron, Hill Air Force Base performs a pre-flight inspection on an AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile prior to his participation in Green Flag West 10-8 exercise at Nellis on July 20. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for Airmen and Soldiers preparing to deploy in support of worldwide combat operations. (US Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)


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## Imran Khan



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## Imran Khan



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## Imran Khan

WHAT the hell they are loaded with aim-120 and we aim-7 no any modren waipong along? alsu f-18 have GBUs but paf f-16 looking unarmed? some one explain me why?


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## SBD-3

what is on the second wing tip of Falcons?.....one is understandably sidewinder


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## razgriz19

hasnain0099 said:


> what is on the second wing tip of Falcons?.....one is understandably sidewinder



its a pod that provides information, such as altitude, speed, weapon launching information, how much Gs they are pulling, their heading, etc to awacs...
all the information gets transfered to awacs and then they evaluate pilot's performence, and his decision of launching weapons,(whether it was rite or wrong), their mistakes, etc..

every plane carry those pods in red flag exercise..

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## razgriz19

i believe PAF flew/flying interdiction missions...


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## razgriz19



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## Imran Khan

razgriz bro these are not from red flag


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## SQ8

Imran.. calm down pai.. ur writing near gibberish in anger :p
We don't have any modern missile in our inventories as of yet( or have the deliveries started of the AMRAAM?? :S)
Still we dont need to carry a missile to simulate its usage and that is what Red Flag's ACMI system takes care of.
If you look around for pics of Anatolian eagle PAF aircraft did carry "borrowed" AMRAAM in the exercise.


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> razgriz bro these are not from red flag



i believe they r sir..


Nellis Air Force Base - Media Gallery

*OOps my bad, the last one is not from red flag!*

i deleted it


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## Imran Khan

santro said:


> Imran.. calm down pai.. ur writing near gibberish in anger :p
> We don't have any modern missile in our inventories as of yet( or have the deliveries started of the AMRAAM?? :S)
> Still we dont need to carry a missile to simulate its usage and that is what Red Flag's ACMI system takes care of.
> If you look around for pics of Anatolian eagle PAF aircraft did carry "borrowed" AMRAAM in the exercise.



i am just sad when i born we got f-16 in my whole life of 25 years i see same loading on paf f-16s damn now change it with some thing or i will die and you load aim-120 GBUs sniper pods haarm


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> i believe they r sir..
> 
> Nellis Air Force Base - Media Gallery



f-22 are not particpating in red flag-04. these images are from USAF 433 sqadron daily training.



look here dic of pic on nelles site

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.--An F-22A Raptor and F-15C Eagle from the U.S. Air Force Weapons School's 433rd Weapons Squadron pull into a vertical climb over the Nevada Test and Training Range July 16, 2010. The NTTR is the U.S. Air Force&#8217;s premier military test and training facility with more than 12,000 square miles of airspace and 2.9 million acres of land. With 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and the support of an opposing enemy force from Nellis Air Force Base, the NTTR provides the combat air force with a "peacetime battlefield" that cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world. The Weapons School began in the late 1940s as the U.S. Air Force Gunnery School and teaches graduate-level instructor courses, providing the world's most advanced training in weapons and tactics employment. (U.S. Air Force photo by Master Sgt. Kevin J. Gruenwald) 




433rd Weapons Squadron soars high with F-15, F-22

Posted 7/23/2010 Updated 7/23/2010 Email story Print story 



by Master Sgt. Kevin Gruenwald
Nellis Public Affairs

7/23/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- The 433rd Weapons Squadron based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., flies the F-15C Eagle and F-22A Raptor. It is the only Weapons School unit operating two types of aircraft.

The Weapons School began in the late 1940s as the U.S. Air Force Gunnery School and teaches graduate-level instructor courses, providing the world's most advanced training in weapons and tactics employment.

A majority of the missions flown by Weapons School units at Nellis take place over the Nevada Test and Training Range. The NTTR is the U.S. Air Force's premier military test and training facility with more than 12,000 square miles of airspace and 2.9 million acres of land. With 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and the support of an opposing enemy force based at Nellis, the NTTR provides the combat air force with a "peacetime battlefield" that cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world. 

The Weapons School began in the late 1940s as the U.S. Air Force Gunnery School and teaches graduate-level instructor courses, providing the world's most advanced training in weapons and tactics employment.

Two classes graduate annually producing approximately 100 graduates who are expert instructors on weapons, weapons systems and air and space integration. They take back to their respective units the latest tactics, techniques and procedures for air-to-air and air-to-ground combat.


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## razgriz19

santro said:


> Imran.. calm down pai.. ur writing near gibberish in anger :p
> We don't have any modern missile in our inventories as of yet( or have the deliveries started of the AMRAAM?? :S)
> Still we dont need to carry a missile to simulate its usage and that is what Red Flag's ACMI system takes care of.
> If you look around for pics of Anatolian eagle PAF aircraft did carry "borrowed" AMRAAM in the exercise.



PAF is flying interdiction mission, so we dont need missiles anywayy...

Nellis AFB Red Flag Schedule for fiscal year 2010: 
Units participating in Red Flag exercises are subject to change.

Red Flag Participating Flying Units
19-30 July

>> Click here for news release <<

Red Air 
65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16) 
64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)

Interdiction 
92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
9 MRS, PAF (F-16B)
425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)

Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses 
77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)

Command and Control 
552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
NATO (E-3)
Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)

Aerial Refueling 
22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)

Aviation Photography Days
Red Flag aviation photography day will be held July 21, for photographers with a letter from an official editor providing intent to publish. 

News Media
News media requests should be sent to 99 ABW Office of Public Affairs, 702-652-2750.

http://www.nellis.af.mil/library/flyingoperations.asp


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## Rafi

About 250 of the 500 AMRAAM's have been delivered, so the block 52+ Aircraft are probably already using them, Mr IK the old F16's will receive their MLU - they will be on pair avionic-ally with the latest state-of-the-art block 52's

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## Imran Khan

Rafi said:


> About 250 of the 500 AMRAAM's have been delivered, so the block 52+ Aircraft are probably already using them, Mr IK the old F16's will receive their MLU - they will be on pair avionic-ally with the latest state-of-the-art block 52's



sir i have alot of respect for you but is there any pic or viedeo or a proof for this . with respect sir its dream to see amraams pics in pakistan


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Imran Khan said:


> sir i have alot of respect for you but is there any pic or viedeo or a proof for this . with respect sir its dream to see amraams pics in pakistan



US must have put the condition of no "Show Off" on PAF


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## Imran Khan

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> US must have put the condition of no "Show Off" on PAF



so i will die like this damn this uncle sam is killer of our dreams


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## Rafi

Mr IK, I have had confirmation from current serving PAF officers, there is no reason to put them on display, but there will be subsequent pictures of our new block 52's with Amraam's shortly

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## Super Hornet

Rafi said:


> Mr IK, I have had confirmation from current serving PAF officers, there is no reason to put them on display, but there will be subsequent pictures of our new block 52's with Amraam's shortly



We are all waiting for that day...


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## dudah

This is good news regarding the transformation of Pakistan into a proud military nation. Research and technology are two inseparable elements in a movement that inevitably spearheads the country into the skies above!


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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> PAF is flying interdiction mission, so we dont need missiles anywayy...
> 
> Nellis AFB Red Flag Schedule for fiscal year 2010:
> Units participating in Red Flag exercises are subject to change.
> 
> Red Flag Participating Flying Units
> 19-30 July
> 
> >> Click here for news release <<
> 
> Red Air
> 65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16)
> 64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)
> 
> Interdiction
> 92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
> 9 MRS, PAF (F-16B)
> 425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
> VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)
> 
> Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
> 77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
> VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
> VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)
> 
> Command and Control
> 552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
> NATO (E-3)
> Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
> Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)
> 
> Aerial Refueling
> 22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)
> 
> Aviation Photography Days
> Red Flag aviation photography day will be held July 21, for photographers with a letter from an official editor providing intent to publish.
> 
> News Media
> News media requests should be sent to 99 ABW Office of Public Affairs, 702-652-2750.
> 
> Nellis Air Force Base - Flying Operations




Most aircraft that fly actual interdiction mission carry at least two missiles for self defence, In most cases.. aircraft from the USAF and friendly AF's flying interdiction's at red flag carry two AMRAAM's or sidewinders to simulate a realistic load on the jet...although this has been omitted during recent years.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Fresh images from *RED FLAG *






*PAF F-16B block 15 #90615 from 9 sqn is seen departing Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 22nd, 2010.*





*PAF F-16B block 15 #90616 from 9 sqn is seen departing Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 23rd, 2010. *





*PAF F-16B block 15 #92620 from 9 sqn is seen landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 22nd, 2010.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16B block 15 #92623 from 9 sqn is seen over head at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010.*





*PAF F-16B block 15 #92623 from 9 sqn is seen over head at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010. *





*PAF F-16B block 15 #92623 from 9 sqn is seen taxiing after landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010. *





*PAF F-16B block 15 #92623 from 9 sqn is seen landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010.*





*PAF F-16B block 15 #90616 from 9 sqn is seen taxiing after landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010.*





*PAF F-16B block 15 #90615 from 9 sqn is seen taxiing after landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010*





*PAF F-16B block 15 #90615 from 9 sqn is seen landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 21st, 2010.*

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## WAQAS119



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## razgriz19

santro said:


> Most aircraft that fly actual interdiction mission carry at least two missiles for self defence, In most cases.. aircraft from the USAF and friendly AF's flying interdiction's at red flag carry two AMRAAM's or sidewinders to simulate a realistic load on the jet...although this has been omitted during recent years.



well PAF f-16s are carrying one sidewinder....

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## Super Hornet

F-18 of marine corps 225 refuels during red flag 10-4 on 21 july 2010


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## skybolt

*An F-16 from the Pakistan Air Force receives fuel from a KC-135 during a Red Flag 10-4 mission July 21, 2010. Red Flag is a realistic combat training exercise involving the air forces of the United States and its allies. The exercise is hosted north of Las Vegas on the Nevada Test and Training Range--the U.S. Air Force's premier military training area with more than 12,000 square miles of airspace and 2.9 million acres of land. With 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world, Nellis and the NTTR are the home of a "peacetime battlefield," providing combat air forces with the ability to train to fly, fight and win together. (U.S. Navy photo by Petty Officer 1st Class Stephen Wolff)*


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## blain2

[/COLOR]


razgriz19 said:


> PAF is flying interdiction mission, so we dont need missiles anywayy...
> 
> Nellis AFB Red Flag Schedule for fiscal year 2010:
> Units participating in Red Flag exercises are subject to change.
> 
> Red Flag Participating Flying Units
> 19-30 July
> 
> >> Click here for news release <<
> 
> Red Air
> 65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16)
> 64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)
> 
> Interdiction
> 92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
> 9 MRS, PAF (F-16B)
> 425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
> VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)
> 
> Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
> 77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
> VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
> VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)
> 
> Command and Control
> 552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
> NATO (E-3)
> Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
> Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)
> 
> Aerial Refueling
> 22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)
> 
> Aviation Photography Days
> Red Flag aviation photography day will be held July 21, for photographers with a letter from an official editor providing intent to publish.
> 
> News Media
> News media requests should be sent to 99 ABW Office of Public Affairs, 702-652-2750.
> 
> Nellis Air Force Base - Flying Operations



Razrig,

Interdiction means you have to defend yourself against red air when carrying out interdiction. All aircraft in interdiction roles have to be ready to fight in and out of their missions. The loadout at RF for such roles is a AIM-9 training round on one wing and an ACMI pod on the other wing.

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## Abingdonboy

TOPGUN said:


> F-16's refueling umm sounds good.. we need a refuelier for our f-16's atleast 2



Has PAF actually got the capabiltiy of refuelling their F-16 blk 50+? As I understand it they are refuelled the the boom method and the PAF don't operate any of these a/c to refuel in this way. My understanding is that the only way to refuel F-16s to refuel using PAF compatible progue tankers has been developed by India! and i doubt Pakistan is high on their list for possible customers!


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## Patriot

Abingdonboy said:


> Has PAF actually got the capabiltiy of refuelling their F-16 blk 50+? As I understand it they are refuelled the the boom method and the PAF don't operate any of these a/c to refuel in this way. My understanding is that the only way to refuel F-16s to refuel using PAF compatible progue tankers has been developed by India! and i doubt Pakistan is high on their list for possible customers!


You are correct - PAF does not operate any refueler with the boom method.The PAF Tankgers Compatible Progue has been developed by Lockheed Martin not India which can be installed on F-16's.But that requires modification in every F16.
PAF Options are 
Negotiate with US for KC-10 or KC-135.
Airbus refueler which have both systems.
Or get a kit from Boeing and convert one of the older's Boeing in service with PIA into refueler.


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## Imran Khan

Abingdonboy said:


> Has PAF actually got the capabiltiy of refuelling their F-16 blk 50+? As I understand it they are refuelled the the boom method and the PAF don't operate any of these a/c to refuel in this way. My understanding is that the only way to refuel F-16s to refuel using PAF compatible progue tankers has been developed by India! and i doubt Pakistan is high on their list for possible customers!



is there really need rofl there in your post? ahhhhhh i hate you guys.


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## Super Falcon

these F 16 are not block 52 is that right and did they get MLU or yet they have to get MLU


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## Patriot



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## Chogy

Gentlemen... you do not need captive missiles for training with the exception of the AIM-9. Radar missile shots (AIM-7, AIM-120) are simulated completely with software. The computers both on the aircraft itself, and the data transmitted through the all-important ACMI pod, evaluate the quality of the shot, and the likelihood of a successful kill. This is all based upon a large number of factors - range, quality of the radar track during any semi-active phase, kinematics, etc.

That is the reason I had asked earlier, if these F-16 fire control and internal software is "AIM-120 ready" meaning that it has AIM-120 symbology, simulated time-of-flight, and other cues needed to employ the AIM-120.

It is senseless to carry a full load of air-air missiles if none of them will be expended. What was done in the past is that a single centerline tank is retained, and not jettisoned, for aerial maneuvering. This simulates a rough aerodynamic and performance penalty (drag) on the airframe, equivalent to a load of several A-A missiles.

A captive AIM-9 (live seeker, the remainder is dummy) is always used so the pilot receives the warbling tone that a real missile gives, and knows whether the shot is good, and the seeker is tracking the target, and not hot rocks, the sun, or flares. 

No one is handcuffing the PAF pilots. A captive AIM-120 is not needed for most training shots.

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## Patriot

Chogy said:


> Gentlemen... you do not need captive missiles for training with the exception of the AIM-9. Radar missile shots (AIM-7, AIM-120) are simulated completely with software. The computers both on the aircraft itself, and the data transmitted through the all-important ACMI pod, evaluate the quality of the shot, and the likelihood of a successful kill. This is all based upon a large number of factors - range, quality of the radar track during any semi-active phase, kinematics, etc.
> 
> That is the reason I had asked earlier, if these F-16 fire control and internal software is "AIM-120 ready" meaning that it has AIM-120 symbology, simulated time-of-flight, and other cues needed to employ the AIM-120.
> 
> It is senseless to carry a full load of air-air missiles if none of them will be expended. What was done in the past is that a single centerline tank is retained, and not jettisoned, for aerial maneuvering. This simulates a rough aerodynamic and performance penalty (drag) on the airframe, equivalent to a load of several A-A missiles.
> 
> A captive AIM-9 (live seeker, the remainder is dummy) is always used so the pilot receives the warbling tone that a real missile gives, and knows whether the shot is good, and the seeker is tracking the target, and not hot rocks, the sun, or flares.
> 
> No one is handcuffing the PAF pilots. A captive AIM-120 is not needed for most training shots.


Thanks for clarification sir.I thought so too as the french rafale were carrying no missile on red flag except for pods and fuel tanks which also gives them better maneuverability due to less load.
Yes, All F16 can fire AIM120 or Sparrow. (F-16.net)


> Modifications
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15&#37;-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.


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## Chogy

Here's something I don't understand. Unless terminology has changed, or perhaps the PAF uses a different terminology from the USAF, the word _interdiction _(to me, at least) means an air to ground mission that strikes supply lines and staging areas well behind the battle area. We did not normally use that to mean air to air. In a typical red flag mission, if you were "Blue" counter-air, that's what we called it. Or perhaps the mission was escort, CAP, or sweep... but it was not normally called interdiction. So I'm wondering what the PAF mission actually is when tasked with it.

Even with A/G missions, they weren't all done with live ordnance. Usually it was BDU-33, little practice bombs, but an air-ground mission can be simulated entirely without ordnance as well, if desired.


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## fatman17

Chogy said:


> Here's something I don't understand. Unless terminology has changed, or perhaps the PAF uses a different terminology from the USAF, the word _interdiction _(to me, at least) means an air to ground mission that strikes supply lines and staging areas well behind the battle area. We did not normally use that to mean air to air. In a typical red flag mission, if you were "Blue" counter-air, that's what we called it. Or perhaps the mission was escort, CAP, or sweep... but it was not normally called interdiction. So I'm wondering what the PAF mission actually is when tasked with it.
> 
> Even with A/G missions, they weren't all done with live ordnance. Usually it was BDU-33, little practice bombs, but an air-ground mission can be simulated entirely without ordnance as well, if desired.



the Nellis agenda for RF stated 'CAS' if i recall ! - what wld CAS be in US terminology?


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## Chogy

Normally, CAS = Close Air Support, using a dedicated man on the ground to dynamically issue attack orders in support of troops in contact.

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## fatman17

Chogy said:


> Normally, CAS = Close Air Support, using a dedicated man on the ground to dynamically issue attack orders in support of troops in contact.



slightly off-topic but...
what IYO has the PAF conducted in the FATA - CAS/Interdiction/A2G !


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## fatman17

*BRIEFING - THE NELLIS RANGE COMPLEX , USAF'S FORBIDDEN COUNTRY*

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY 

DATE: 05-Aug-1998 
EDITION: 1998 
VOLUME/ISSUE: 030/005 

BY LINE:

Mark Farmer

INTRODUCTION:

After decades of secrecy, new details of operations and capabilities
within the vast area of the US Nellis Range Complex in Nevada are
emerging. Mark Farmer reports

Although many bases within the US Air Force (USAF) fight hard to
survive and another round of base closures looms, Nellis Air Force
Base, its associated Range Complex and embedded secure test and
evaluation installations can realistically assume that their
collective future is assured.
The complex is the 'crown jewel' of the US defence test and training
establishment, paid for with tens of billions of dollars over half a
century.
Over the past year, Jane's Defence Weekly has been allowed
unparalleled access to commanders and control facilities and has
flown extensively throughout the ranges in a Red Flag mission of the
414th Combat Training Squadron "Aggressors".

Larger than Switzerland, the 1.5 million ha live-fire, test and
evaluation ranges at Nellis operate under the aegis of military
services, government agencies and corporate defence concerns. Over
50&#37; of the weapons that the USAF uses in live-fire exercises are
expended over the range.
Last year, over 250 units and more than 20,000 personnel
participated in a Flag exercise flying over 900 aircraft in over
11,000 sorties. A senior intelligence officer said: "Nellis is the
centre of the universe for all that flies". Tactics, weapons and
entire aircraft have been developed within the range under
conditions of tight security.
Most training and weapons firing takes place within the highly
instrumented southeast and north central ranges where most Red,
Green and Maple Flag operations take place. The landscape is dotted
with video cameras and cinetheodolites, which document training and
testing events, and target arrays simulating airfields, armoured
convoys, underground bunkers and a nuclear storage facility. Realism
is heightened by a number of electronic warfare emitters linked to
19 surface-to-air missile (SAM) radars and 18 anti-aircraft
artillery radars along with 10 unmanned threat emitters and 42
Smokey SAM launchers.
While the Nellis range is designated as a Military Operating Area
and geographically the ranges are wide-open, training flights are
constrained by the existence of several severely restricted areas.
The most notorious is R-4808E surrounding Groom Dry Lake. The
forbidden airspace is known to military pilots as 'The Box' and is
under the airspace direction of 'Dreamland Control'. The base,
referred to as Area 51, is well-known as the birthplace of the U-2,
A-12, SR-71, Tacit Blue and F-117A aircraft.
Recent evidence indicates that the base is managed by E G & G
Special Projects in Las Vegas and is actually Detachment 3 of the
Air Force Flight Test Center headquartered at Edwards Air Force Base
(AFB), California, and comes under the control of the Air Force
Materiel Command.
While not commenting on past or current operations at the sprawling
base and after over 40 years of denials, USAF officials now
acknowledge the existence of the installation.
Despite black project budget cuts, several helicopter, aircraft,
missile and electronic warfare programmes are believed to be
undergoing testing at the facility and as many as 1,500 people a day
are ferried daily to the base on unmarked Boeing 737-200s, call sign
Janet, from Las Vegas and Burbank.
The location of 'The Box' in the mid-eastern part of the complex
means that attackers in Flag exercises must enter the northern part
of the Nellis range via several chokepoints that make it easy for
Red Forces to engage and kill them. To improve flexibility in
training, Red Flag officials have called for airspace restrictions
near Groom Dry Lake to be eased, and recently there have been a
number of instances where one-time-only permission has been granted
to penetrate 'The Box'. Airspace restrictions also apply over the
Nevada Test Site at the southern end of the Nellis range. The
nuclear-testing grounds have long been the location of very
sensitive weapons and nuclear science research.
Now that underground testing has been suspended with the exception
of subcritical tests at the U1a complex 305m below the desert, USAF
and allied aircraft are allowed to overfly most of the test site at
an altitude of 19,000ft (5,790m) or above. Marines and special
operations forces use the facilities and highly varied terrain to
conduct unconventional warfare and anti-terrorist training while the
Defense Special Weapons Agency continues deep underground target
defeat and other research within areas 12 and 16.
Due to delays in decision-making by the Federal Aviation
Administration, Kistler Aerospace has moved most of its reusable
launch vehicle testing programme to Australia, although Kistler
remains confident it can eventually conduct operations from its test
site launch base.
To the north of Nellis lies the Tonopah Test Range (TTR), the home
of the F-117A fighter aircraft during the late 1980s and the site
of continued Joint Test Article studies where nuclear weapons are
test-dropped without their operational physics package.
Under the jurisdiction of USAF and Sandia National Laboratory, the
TTR is used mostly as a "pickled" [warm storage] facility though
An-2s, Mil-8, Mil-24 and five 'Scud' missiles and their transporter
erector launchers operate from the base during Flag and Joint
Suppression of Enemy Air Defence exercises. Several Janet flights
per weekday bring contractor and USAF personnel to the installation
and there are persistent though unproven rumours of some test
programmes being based at the TTR.
MiG-29s bought from Moldova were to be based at the TTR due to their
short range and lack of infrared equipment. However, it is now
unlikely that more than three of the 'Fulcrums' will be restored to
flight status, with one 'Fulcrum C' being delivered to the Threat
Training Facility "petting zoo" at Nellis AFB run by the 547th
Intelligence Squadron.
Plans are under discussion to use the TTR as the 'Motherland' of the
Flag battle scenarios. Former users of the base lament its current
condition: one former high-ranking USAF officer based there during
the F-117A's secret operations said: "the base is a national asset,
many interesting things happened there and could happen again with
the right support".
The Tolicha Peak Electronic Combat Range lies to the southwest of
the TTR and is shielded by a small mountain range to the west.
Little is known of the capabilities of the installation and no USAF
or range contractors are willing to discuss its mission or
equipment.
Of all activities within the Nellis Range Complex, the least
discussed is Site IV to the east of TTR. The USAF installation is
reported to be where 'acquired' Soviet, Russian, Chinese and 'gray'
threat radars and electronic countermeasures (ECM) equipment are
tested against US aircraft, missiles, nuclear weapons, targeting
sensors and ECM/electronic support measures equipment.
Observations indicate that the site has grown in recent years.
Throughout the range there are various small airfields and
installations of unknown purpose. One airstrip reportedly used
pop-up water sprinklers to darken the desert-coloured tarmac to
increase its visibility so that aircraft could land when no Soviet
reconnaissance satellites were within range.
The complex could accommodate testing and training of army artillery
in the southern ranges firing towards Papoose Lake. This would help
overcome firing azimuth restrictions at the National Training
Facility in southern California.
The only operational units within the complex are the 11th and 15th
Reconnaissance Squadrons equipped with Predator unmanned aerial
vehicles at the Indian Springs Air Force Auxillary Field to the
southeast of the Nevada Test Site. Some sources indicate that the
15th is having problems with its ground-control station and four
Predators.
Marine helicopters and Special Operations Forces teams work from the
field and the Thunderbird Demonstration Team practises nearby. The
complex is undergoing a prolonged environmental impact statement
process in conjunction with a forthcoming request for either an
indefinite or 25-year withdrawal of the Range Complex lands from
public land use.
The Secretary of the Air Force plans to present the plans to the
public this September. Modelled after the permanent withdrawal of
public lands in Alaska for military use, USAF officials would prefer
the indefinite withdrawal option.
Nellis AFB base itself is now safe from additional urban
encroachment with the new zoning of explosive ordnance loading areas
which should keep developers at a safe distance.
- Mark Farmer is a freelance writer based in Alaska.

CAPTION:

The Tonopah Test Range.The base was
the home of the F-117A stealth fighter aircraft and associated test
platforms during the late 1980s

CAPTION:

The Groom Lake facility. The airspace around this area is under the direction of 'Dreamland Control' Red Flag officials have recently requested that flying
restrictions be relaxed around this area.

CAPTION:


Last year, more than 20,000 personnel took part in one Flag exercise
flying over 900 aircraft in 11,000 sorties. (Photo: M Farmer/Jane's)


CAPTION:

Predator UAVs are operated by the 11th and 15th 
Reconnaissance Squadrons southeast of the Nevada Test Site.

Nellis special use airspace 

CAPTION:

Nellis special use airspace

Left:overhead view of the 

CAPTION:

Left: overhead view of the Groom Dry Lake

CAPTION:

Below: Area 2, is the largest nuclear weapons storage area in the western USA over 200 bombs and cruise missile warheads are thought to be held there.

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## Sapper

fatman17 said:


> slightly off-topic but...
> what IYO has the PAF conducted in the FATA - CAS/Interdiction/A2G !



I believe it lies under COIN and CAS depending on the mission.

If F16 is loitering and waiting for targets to appear, its COIN, otherwise if troops have already engaged the enemy and plan the mission up-front before aircraft takes off for target, its CAS.

It would have fallen into Interdiction if the enemy had Radars, Sams and CAP aircrafts; in which case the Viper pilots would have to cater in these factors and had taken necessary precautions, i.e. Jammer pods, A2A weapons load, Harm missiles etc.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Super Hornet

Sapper said:


> I believe it lies under COIN and CAS depending on the mission.
> 
> If F16 is loitering and waiting for targets to appear, its COIN, otherwise if troops have already engaged the enemy and plan the mission up-front before aircraft takes off for target, its CAS.
> 
> It would have fallen into Interdiction if the enemy had Radars, Sams and CAP aircrafts; in which case the Viper pilots would have to cater in these factors and had taken necessary precautions, i.e. Jammer pods, A2A weapons load, Harm missiles etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


Rightly said i also have read a few articles regarding PAFs OPS in NWFP and they are conducting coin operations....


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> slightly off-topic but...
> what IYO has the PAF conducted in the FATA - CAS/Interdiction/A2G !



Both. Interdiction was done in the initial phases of the engagement when the Arny supplied specific target list to the PAF of sites where they believed the militants were regrouping, their ammunition dumps and logistics centers etc. and these were hit in interdiction sorties. Once the Army moved into Swat valley, PAF had their forward observers embedded with Army units and this is when they called in CAS as and when the need arose. 

People tend to interchangably use CAS and interdiction eventhough these are two different things however both come under surface attack category for the PAF.

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## blain2

Sapper said:


> I believe it lies under COIN and CAS depending on the mission.
> 
> If F16 is loitering and waiting for targets to appear, its COIN, otherwise if troops have already engaged the enemy and plan the mission up-front before aircraft takes off for target, its CAS.
> 
> It would have fallen into Interdiction if the enemy had Radars, Sams and CAP aircrafts; in which case the Viper pilots would have to cater in these factors and had taken necessary precautions, i.e. Jammer pods, A2A weapons load, Harm missiles etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Imho, COIN is not a term used to describe PAF or Air power missions. Its a general term used to describe a type of warfare. 


> If F16 is loitering and waiting for targets to appear, its COIN, otherwise if troops have already engaged the enemy and plan the mission up-front before aircraft takes off for target, its CAS.



CAS could be as a result of pre-planned missions or as targets of opportunity appear while the aircraft is over a theater where ground operations are taking place. The key with CAS is that it has to be coordinated with the ground forces because the air power is being brought to bear to help out the troops on the ground. The airpower is used in close proximity to own troops due to the close contact with the other side. 


> It would have fallen into Interdiction if the enemy had Radars, Sams and CAP aircrafts; in which case the Viper pilots would have to cater in these factors and had taken necessary precautions, i.e. Jammer pods, A2A weapons load, Harm missiles etc.



Here too, what to interdict is up to the PAF. If they are stopping the advance or hindering the mobility of the other side, then they are conducting interdiction. Interdiction missions usually require planning and intelligence about the target area before hand because the aircraft have to fly in a certain configuration of ordnance. However with swingrole and multirole aircraft, there could be situations that a mission is changed midway through flight.

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## blain2

*Red Flag provides unique training opportunities*

Posted 7/27/2010 Updated 7/27/2010 Email story Print story



by Airman 1st Class Daniel Phelps
Red Flag 10-4 Public Affairs

7/27/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Four times per year, U.S. forces and allies from around the world gather at "The Home of the Fighter Pilot" to participate in Red Flag and gain coalition air combat experiences in a peacetime environment.

They fly together on the Nevada Test and Training Range here, the U.S. Air Force's premiere military training area with more than 12,000 square miles of airspace and 2.9 million acres of land. The NTTR also includes 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere in the world.

During Red Flag 10-4, more than 500 personnel are launching over 70 aircraft, ranging from F-15s and F-16s to EA-6Bs, EA-18Gs, E-3s, F/A-18s, and MC-130s, twice per day and KC-135s are pumping around 150,000 gallons of fuel daily.

Participating in this Red Flag 10-4 are members from all branches of the U.S. armed forces, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Singapore and NATO.

"Red Flag provides challenging scenarios, and only through teamwork and the integration of all the assets deployed to Red Flag can we succeed," said Col. Don Godier, 20th Fighter Wing vice commander and Air Expeditionary Wing commander for Red Flag. "No single aircraft can handle the tactical challenges that Red Flag presents and this provides the opportunity to fly with coalition partners and prepare for future high intensity conflicts."

Red Flag also provides unique training for more than just pilots because it replicates the full spectrum of threats.

"This exercise covers most scenarios, strategies and tactics that could occur and as an intelligence officer, it is rare to get war situation training," said Hungarian Air Force Capt. Victor Nemeti, from NATO Squadron 2, Geilenkirchen, Germany. "We had meetings with all of the units here. It was good to have all the intelligence communities come together and share their experience and questions. We were able to learn a lot from the others. It is an amazing learning opportunity."

"From the number of aircraft here to support the coalition effort and even the weather and climate at Nellis, all of this combines to makes this training valuable," said Canadian Air Force Maj. Ed Roberds, the NATO deployed forces commander. "Red Flag creates an opportunity to bring the crew into a multinational environment."

Red Flag 10-4 runs through July 31.

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## Stealth

Chogy said:


> Normally, CAS = Close Air Support, using a dedicated man on the ground to dynamically issue attack orders in support of troops in contact.



Like "Tears of Sun" movie  close Air support!


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## Super Hornet

A PAF JF-17 AT DISPLAY WITH A CHINESE WEAPONS KIT AT FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW 2010


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## Super Hornet

THE MISSILE IN THE FRONT IS THE SD-10A


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## Imran Khan

hornet sir jee red flag thread


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## owais.usmani



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## owais.usmani



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## owais.usmani

*Videos of PAF F-16s being refuelled during RED FLAG: *


Hitting the skies with Nellis airmen for red flag training



Fuel Tanker Takes To Nevada's Skies

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## Imran Khan

heeeeeeeey bro down load them and then upload on youtube


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## khurasaan1

Super Hornet said:


> A PAF JF-17 AT DISPLAY WITH A CHINESE WEAPONS KIT AT FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW 2010



Nice PICS bro...

u know ...when the first time JF-17 flew on 23rd March 2007 and ..media came to know all over the world about the JF-17 project between Pak_China. I knew a USAF Pilot from Green Beret. He told me that the US interests are threatened by PAK-CHINA JF17 project. He told me that this is very capable aircraft. I was amazed that he praised it so much. Another thing he told me that we cant trust Musharraf now no more. He has two faces one with us and the otherz with Chinese.He showed me the Pics of the aircraft in the newspaper and gave me his views. In another incident from US military person, gave me the same views.
Anywayz their views were very interesting to me.
Alhamdolillah PAF is working brilliantly that it is getting great credit from across the world.
I hope in red flag PAF will amaze everybody with their outstanding perfornance
:flag:

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## into the wild

who's winning???


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## Ahmed Mehmood

awesome pics bro!

---------- Post added at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 AM ----------

how graceful & deadly the Fighting Falcon looks


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## air marshal



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## rizhussain44

owais.usmani said:


>



Hey.. what is that on the side of the rear seat pilot, on the canopy's inside. 

Probably some AC manual?! Isn't it dangerous to have loose articles like that inside?


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## MastanKhan

khurasaan1 said:


> Nice PICS bro...
> 
> u know ...when the first time JF-17 flew on 23rd March 2007 and ..media came to know all over the world about the JF-17 project between Pak_China. I knew a USAF Pilot from Green Beret. He told me that the US interests are threatened by PAK-CHINA JF17 project. He told me that this is very capable aircraft. I was amazed that he praised it so much. Another thing he told me that we cant trust Musharraf now no more. He has two faces one with us and the otherz with Chinese.He showed me the Pics of the aircraft in the newspaper and gave me his views. In another incident from US military person, gave me the same views.
> Anywayz their views were very interesting to me.
> Alhamdolillah PAF is working brilliantly that it is getting great credit from across the world.
> I hope in red flag PAF will amaze everybody with their outstanding perfornance
> :flag:



Hi,

You should have told that guy---sir---do you know the word 'oxymoron' and what it means. It is you americans that the pak millitary cannot trust and not the other way around.

Why don't the pak millitary give yopu a piece of your own medicine of deception for a while and then we will see how you react to it---and then later we can say---let us trust each other.

See---what he says then.

Paf should not out do anyone in prformance in red flag----they just need to perform at their barest minimum best to come out barely ahead---just keep the nose above the water---but keep within striking distance.

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## aliyusuf

Yep I agree that we shouldn't let the proverbial cat out of the bag and keep our ACM tactics to the barest minimum.

Good point MK Bhai.


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## gambit

khurasaan1 said:


> Nice PICS bro...
> 
> u know ...when the first time JF-17 flew on 23rd March 2007 and ..media came to know all over the world about the JF-17 project between Pak_China. *I knew a USAF Pilot from Green Beret.* He told me that the US interests are threatened by PAK-CHINA JF17 project. He told me that this is very capable aircraft. I was amazed that he praised it so much. Another thing he told me that we cant trust Musharraf now no more. He has two faces one with us and the otherz with Chinese.He showed me the Pics of the aircraft in the newspaper and gave me his views. In another incident from US military person, gave me the same views.
> Anywayz their views were very interesting to me.
> Alhamdolillah PAF is working brilliantly that it is getting great credit from across the world.
> I hope in red flag PAF will amaze everybody with their outstanding perfornance
> :flag:


There are no USAF pilots in the US Army Special Forces, the 'Green Berets'. By the way, those gents do not like the 'Green Berets' label. That is from popular media. They prefers 'Special Forces'.

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## x_man



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## x_man



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## fatman17

x_man - any 'grapevine' news abt red flag excercise regarding PAF?


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## Patriot

PAF F-16's Taking off at Nellis AFB




[/IMG]

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## ice_man

Patriot said:


> PAF F-16's Taking off at Nellis AFB
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]



check out the 4 raptors parked in the shade!

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## blain2

X-man's pictures of the Vipers against the sundown are breathtaking. Hi-res ones would be very welcome!

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Patriot

Can you post high resolution pictures?I suggest members save all these photos and spread it on different image hosting sites.


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## WAQAS119

Are PAF vipers doing dog fights and other operations or just refuling refuling and just refuling???


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## AVIAN

WAQAS119 said:


> Are PAF vipers doing dog fights and other operations or just refuling refuling and just refuling???



Mission planning often takes great amount of attention rather then having sharpning skills on combact alone. Air Refuelling is a major exercise which often ask for major Opearational Efficiency and ability to project power ahead of existing endurance. Unless you don't have key approch to rapid response time to deal with upcoming threat then it is of little help to expect heroics in Combact.

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## razgriz19

WAQAS119 said:


> Are PAF vipers doing dog fights and other operations or just refuling refuling and just refuling???



PAF F-16s are assigned to do interdiction, but if enemy (red force) somehow got closer to paf fighters then yes there would be a dog fight taking place!

and refuelling takes place after every mission(need fuel to go back to base) so every fighter in the air have to go through this...

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## x_man

blain2 said:


> X-man's pictures of the Vipers against the sundown are breathtaking. Hi-res ones would be very welcome!



As soon I have high res, I will post them here, few more for the road.

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## x_man



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## x_man



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## Chogy

Beautiful pictures!

Guys, remember that refueling is a time to take a few deep breaths and snap some pics... unless you are on the boom! Getting pictures of the actual ACBT or air to ground is extremely difficult from the rear seat of an F-16B, or the rear seat of any fighter. Air to air pictures - consider you are under up to 9G, and you'd be extremely lucky to snap anything from the rear seat that would even be identifiable as another airplane. And the guys in the back seat aren't going to want to play cameraman while the action is hot and heavy, they'll want to be a part of the mission. Trust me on that.

If the PAF releases the HUD video, that is where we are going to see significant images. I'm betting too that the PAF has a media person along to record a huge number of images of things like briefing, launch, debriefing, etc, but the media guy probably won't be flying. Just a guess. We'll hopefully see much more at a later date.

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## Kompromat

We need some Results and Videos too.


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## owais.usmani

In the last picture you can clearly see two female paf crew members as well; never knew they were a part of the red flag team as well

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## behram

Chogy said:


> Beautiful pictures!
> 
> Guys, remember that refueling is a time to take a few deep breaths and snap some pics... unless you are on the boom! Getting pictures of the actual ACBT or air to ground is extremely difficult from the rear seat of an F-16B, or the rear seat of any fighter. Air to air pictures - consider you are under up to 9G, and you'd be extremely lucky to snap anything from the rear seat that would even be identifiable as another airplane. And the guys in the back seat aren't going to want to play cameraman while the action is hot and heavy, they'll want to be a part of the mission. Trust me on that.
> 
> If the PAF releases the HUD video, that is where we are going to see significant images. I'm betting too that the PAF has a media person along to record a huge number of images of things like briefing, launch, debriefing, etc, but the media guy probably won't be flying. Just a guess. We'll hopefully see much more at a later date.



I've seen a HUD vid of the 1st Viper landing at Nellis AFB, thanks to the PAF media guy(also one of the 1st Viper pilots in late 80s), who is currently in Islamabad, met him a few days back.


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## subanday

Cream of our nation ... go boyz go.... ah girls also now...

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## subanday

X-Man , Bohat aala

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## behram

Btw I have some hi-res pics of Red Flag, and JF-17, and of PAF F-16s when leaving for Red Flag. I don't know how to post them up, but if anyone needs any of them, just PM me.


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## bilal1219

behram said:


> Btw I have some hi-res pics of Red Flag, and JF-17, and of PAF F-16s when leaving for Red Flag. I don't know how to post them up, but if anyone needs any of them, just PM me.



Upload them on the image hosting website and then post the links back here. Good Luck


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## Chogy

behram said:


> I've seen a HUD vid of the 1st Viper landing at Nellis AFB, thanks to the PAF media guy(also one of the 1st Viper pilots in late 80s), who is currently in Islamabad, met him a few days back.



I probably should have qualified "they won't be flying" to "the rear seats are a hot commodity and mostly will go to other pilots." Unless the dedicated media guy is also a qualified F-16 pilot! 

One of the problems is the tendency for non-crew members to get sick and become a huge distraction, possibly even causing an air interrupt.

Quick Red Flag story - we had an irritating AWACS scope jockey claimed he did all the hard work... all we had to do was go where he sent us. So we gave him a ride. Stuck him in "Mongo's" rear seat for a fight-tank-fight-RTB. Mongo was an animal. By the time the mission was over, and Mongo was taxiing in, we could see the AWACS guy slumped to one side. He looked unconscious or dead. When the canopy came up, he laid his head on the rail and simply let a string of drool trail to the ground.  <-- looked like this; quite green. He had to be peeled out and carried away. All he could say was "Oh my god, oh my god." over and over. 

I honestly don't know if we'll get much of anything equivalent to performance reports. There will be some general conclusions and summaries, but I'm not sure if there will be specifics.

The one way to get real info would be to talk directly to some of the opposition air who could give an accurate assessment, but I don't know anyone in those units any longer.

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## behram

Chogy said:


> I probably should have qualified "they won't be flying" to "the rear seats are a hot commodity and mostly will go to other pilots." Unless the dedicated media guy is also a qualified F-16 pilot!
> 
> .



Yes sir he is a qualified F-16 pilot, when A/B models were brand-new, and he was my dads student on Vipers. The media guy is an experienced Viper driver from PAF(also flew for 3 years with TuAF on Block 30s and 40s).


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## Imran Khan

red flag is over but no reselts no viedeo leake like indian mki nothing whats going on?.


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## gambit

Chogy said:


> I probably should have qualified "they won't be flying" to "the rear seats are a hot commodity and mostly will go to other pilots." Unless the dedicated media guy is also a qualified F-16 pilot!
> 
> One of the problems is the tendency for non-crew members to get sick and become a huge distraction, possibly even causing an air interrupt.
> 
> Quick Red Flag story - we had an irritating AWACS scope jockey claimed he did all the hard work... all we had to do was go where he sent us. So we gave him a ride. Stuck him in "Mongo's" rear seat for a fight-tank-fight-RTB. Mongo was an animal. By the time the mission was over, and Mongo was taxiing in, we could see the AWACS guy slumped to one side. *He looked unconscious or dead. When the canopy came up, he laid his head on the rail and simply let a string of drool trail to the ground.  <-- looked like this; quite green.* He had to be peeled out and carried away. All he could say was "Oh my god, oh my god." over and over.
> 
> I honestly don't know if we'll get much of anything equivalent to performance reports. There will be some general conclusions and summaries, but I'm not sure if there will be specifics.
> 
> The one way to get real info would be to talk directly to some of the opposition air who could give an accurate assessment, but I don't know anyone in those units any longer.


The F-111E/F has a radar scope hood for the WSO...






The 'E' model has an older radar and the scope hood, some called it the 'feedbag', is rounded. Non-flyers have gotten sick and blew chunks inside the hood because they were not quick enough to bring up the barf bag after they disconnect the oxygen mask. Sometimes even pilots will get queasy because of the hard TF ride. Crew chiefs and avionics are usually on the alert for any such ride. The scope is about 2-ft long and depending on model weighs more than 50lbs.

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## owais.usmani



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## anathema

So any interesting tid bits ?


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## pyazdani945@gmail.com

Allah bless them and make our air-force successfull... in red flag competetion


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## Chogy

behram said:


> Yes sir he is a qualified F-16 pilot, when A/B models were brand-new, and he was my dads student on Vipers. The media guy is an experienced Viper driver from PAF(also flew for 3 years with TuAF on Block 30s and 40s).



Excellent. This isn't always the case. Sometimes, for important events, they'll assign someone from the outside to be "Mr. Media" who is a genius with a Nikon camera, but will barf during taxi-out.

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## owais.usmani



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## WAQAS119



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## air marshal

Pictures courtesy: Shazib Mehmood

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## air marshal

Pictures courtesy: Shazib Mehmood

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## air marshal

Pictures courtesy: Shazib Mehmood

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## SurvivoR

WAQAS119 said:


>



That's one of the best pix of an F-16B I have ever come across!

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## blain2

Chogy said:


> Beautiful pictures!
> 
> Guys, remember that refueling is a time to take a few deep breaths and snap some pics... unless you are on the boom! Getting pictures of the actual ACBT or air to ground is extremely difficult from the rear seat of an F-16B, or the rear seat of any fighter. Air to air pictures - consider you are under up to 9G, and you'd be extremely lucky to snap anything from the rear seat that would even be identifiable as another airplane. And the guys in the back seat aren't going to want to play cameraman while the action is hot and heavy, they'll want to be a part of the mission. Trust me on that.
> 
> If the PAF releases the HUD video, that is where we are going to see significant images. I'm betting too that the PAF has a media person along to record a huge number of images of things like briefing, launch, debriefing, etc, but the media guy probably won't be flying. Just a guess. We'll hopefully see much more at a later date.



PAF will never release any HUD footage. We also won't hear any stories in the short term through the media either. After a few years, someone will end up writing an article or two or really further down the line or years, their memoirs, and then folks will hear about some of this action.

I have never seen PAF conduct any post-exercise briefings because most of the shortcomings noticed or goals attained are kept within, which in my opinion is the right thing to do.

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> PAF will never release any HUD footage. We also won't hear any stories in the short term through the media either. After a few years, someone will end up writing an article or two or really further down the line or years, their memoirs, and then folks will hear about some of this action.
> 
> *I have never seen PAF conduct any post-exercise briefings because most of the shortcomings noticed or goals attained are kept within, which in my opinion is the right thing to do*.



and as long as the shortcomings are rectified and goals attained are built upon - its ok.

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## fatman17

BTW any news on Green Flag - PAF F-16s were going to attend this excercise also!!??


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## anathema

Great Pictures !!! 

They all look pretty experienced !!


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## behram

Red Flag should have inexperienced pilots flying in the exercise, but PAF decides to send their most experienced flyers. Also all of them need to work out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## banned

behram said:


> Red Flag should have inexperienced pilots flying in the exercise, but PAF decides to send their most experienced flyers. Also all of them need to work out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



WTF told you that?? RedFlag is an exercise to validate emerging air combat tactics. Not for training freshers.


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## Riz

PAF at Red Flag Exercise

Earlier this month, the Pakistan Air Force made its maiden appearance at the United States Air Force (USAF) Red Flag Exercise 10-4, a series of realistic aerial war games. The Red Flag exercises, which commenced from July 19 to July 31, have been held periodically at the Nellis Air Force Base (AFB) since 1975. Spread over 15,000 square miles of airspace north of Las Vegas, the exercise is conducted over the Nevada Test and Training Range. The purpose of these drills is to give pilots from the US, NATO and other allied countries an opportunity to practise and refine their skills, in a real world combat simulation. 
The participants are divided into two teams, the Blue Team and the rather more aggressive Red Team. The Red Team is composed of Nellis AFB-based pilots, especially trained for this purpose, while the Blue Team comprises various guest players. The objective of the Blue Team is to destroy certain targets on the ranges, while the Red Team attempts to defend them. Both teams usually meet in the airspace, where they engage in realistic dogfights. Vantage points afford exercise umpires, observers and visitors an excellent view of the proceedings. The major US participants in the Red Flag 10-4 included B-52 Stratofortresses, F-22 Raptors and F-15E Strike Eagles. Other aircrafts in the exercise included are EA-6B Prowlers, F-15S, F-16s and F-5Es. 
The USAF hosted approximately 100 PAF pilots and support personnel this time round, and in the grand scheme of things, PAF and USAF cooperation yielded big dividends for both. As fighter tactics are constantly evolving, the PAF pilots were able to display their prowess, besides also being able to observe and learn from the air forces of other nations. 
The Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) operated by Nellis AFB includes 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. During Red Flag 10-4, more than 500 personnel were launching over 70 aircrafts twice a day, and KC-135s were pumping around 150,000 gallons of fuel daily. The pilots of PAFs fleet of F-16Bs looked eager to push their aircraft to the limit, earning plaudits from the opposition. 
All in all, Red Flag provided the participating PAF contingent challenging scenarios, and through teamwork and the integration of all the assets deployed it secured success. No single aircraft can handle the tactical challenges that Red Flag presents and this unique platform provides the opportunity to fly with coalition partners and prepare for future high intensity conflicts. Red Flag also provides inimitable training not just for pilots, but also for the whole crew as it replicates a full spectrum of threats. The Red Flag exercise covers most scenarios, strategies and tactics that could occur and exposes the crew into a multinational environment providing them with a great platform for mutual learning.

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## Ishan

I hope in Some next Edition of Red Flag Exercises IAF goes with Sukhois and MMRCA Winner


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## mjnaushad

Ishan said:


> I hope in Some next Edition of Red Flag Exercises IAF goes with Sukhois and MMRCA Winner


Dont wish this......We are so emotional that we'll shoot each other for real......

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## Ishan

mjnaushad said:


> Dont wish this......We are so emotional that we'll shoot each other for real......



I dont think IAF and PAF will ever be at a Same Place for any Air Exercise


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## dbc

banned said:


> WTF told you that?? RedFlag is an exercise to validate emerging air combat tactics. Not for training freshers.



..that brings up an interesting question - anyone know the selection criteria for the PAF pilots sent to Red Flag?


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## behram

banned said:


> WTF told you that?? RedFlag is an exercise to validate emerging air combat tactics. Not for training freshers.



I get my knowledge from fighter pilots(Dad, and cousin) and my instructor for my Private Pilots Licence(UAEAF F-16 operational pilot at No.2 sqn, Al Dhafra) and a lot of other pilots (USMC, RAF, Armee de L'Air). And for working out I meant their fitness. And it is essential to send the least experienced pilots for this Red Flag exercise, as THE HOME OF THE FIGHTER PILOT has the myth that a pilot first ten missions is simulated over the Nevada desert.


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## Wingman

Great Photo addition by Air Marshal


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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..that brings up an interesting question - anyone know the selection criteria for the PAF pilots sent to Red Flag?



Hi,

Looking at the pictures---none of them are young guns---close to thirty or thirty plus---that is what it looks like.


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## Donatello

mjnaushad said:


> Dont wish this......We are so emotional that we'll shoot each other for real......





Hahahahahaha!

This comment made my day........


Anyway, i hope PAF can take Jf-17 as well. We need to make sure the JF-17 pilots get combat training as well, against fighters like F-15 and F-16s.....


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## Donatello

x_man said:


>





Great pictures i must say!

The guy in the second seat (Last Pic) seems to be chilling, while plane is being refueled.....





How about PAF gets the KC-135 for its F-16 refueling....i mean we can't have IL-78 do all the job. Perhaps this exercise will highlight the importance of air refuelers...

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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking at the pictures---none of them are young guns---close to thirty or thirty plus---that is what it looks like.



Well yeah! but I was wondering if they picked several pilots from the same sqd or was the selection a pick of the best Viper drivers in the nation? I just wanted a feel for the thought process cause Red Flag ain't cheap...


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## Patriot

All pilots and F16's are from No 9 Griffins Squadron which is considered to be one of the most elite squadron of Pakistan Air Force.PAF 11th Arrows Squadron (Arrows Squadron also also operates F16's and was the first Squadron in PAF to be equipped with jet engine fighter *F86 and then later first squadron to be equipped with F16s and it is considered to be the most elite squadron of Pakistan Air Force).Both Squadrons Pilots have fought in several wars but PAF sent only 9th squadron jets and pilots.

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## z9-ec

Red Flag 10-4 recovery.




Courtesy 8081rt.

And yes, PAF will stay on for Green Flag 10-9.

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## air marshal



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## anathema

mjnaushad said:


> Dont wish this......We are so emotional that we'll shoot each other for real......



Good one !!!!  ...I think if this ever happens then the host nation would be better to put us in the same team !! But i guess suddenly the number of fraticides will climb through the roof !!


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## Donatello

In the video, notice the smoke out of F-15 engines when it comes in for landing. So i guess all engines have smoke issue when varying speed.......



Also, PAF Blk 15 against Blk 52....how did it fare up? Anybody knows?


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## TOPGUN

Nice pic's awsome recovery video... it is such a blood rushing feeling and honor to see our boys flying no matter where they are


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## air marshal

*PAF at Red Flag Exercise*
August 4, 2010

By S. M. Hali

Earlier this month, the Pakistan Air Force made its maiden appearance at the United States Air Force (USAF) Red Flag Exercise 10-4, a series of realistic aerial war games. The Red Flag exercises, which commenced from July 19 to July 31, have been held periodically at the Nellis Air Force Base (AFB) since 1975. Spread over 15,000 square miles of airspace north of Las Vegas, the exercise is conducted over the Nevada Test and Training Range. The purpose of these drills is to give pilots from the US, NATO and other allied countries an opportunity to practise and refine their skills, in a real world combat simulation.

The participants are divided into two teams, the Blue Team and the rather more aggressive Red Team. The Red Team is composed of Nellis AFB-based pilots, especially trained for this purpose, while the Blue Team comprises various guest players. The objective of the Blue Team is to destroy certain targets on the ranges, while the Red Team attempts to defend them. Both teams usually meet in the airspace, where they engage in realistic dogfights. Vantage points afford exercise umpires, observers and visitors an excellent view of the proceedings. 

The major US participants in the Red Flag 10-4 included B-52 Stratofortresses, F-22 Raptors and F-15E Strike Eagles. Other aircrafts in the exercise included are EA-6B Prowlers, F-15S, F-16s and F-5Es.

The USAF hosted approximately 100 PAF pilots and support personnel this time round, and in the grand scheme of things, PAF and USAF cooperation yielded big dividends for both. As fighter tactics are constantly evolving, the PAF pilots were able to display their prowess, besides also being able to observe and learn from the air forces of other nations.

The Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) operated by Nellis AFB includes 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. During Red Flag 10-4, more than 500 personnel were launching over 70 aircrafts twice a day, and KC-135s were pumping around 150,000 gallons of fuel daily. The pilots of PAFs fleet of F-16Bs looked eager to push their aircraft to the limit, earning plaudits from the opposition.

All in all, Red Flag provided the participating PAF contingent challenging scenarios, and through teamwork and the integration of all the assets deployed it secured success. No single aircraft can handle the tactical challenges that Red Flag presents and this unique platform provides the opportunity to fly with coalition partners and prepare for future high intensity conflicts. Red Flag also provides inimitable training not just for pilots, but also for the whole crew as it replicates a full spectrum of threats. The Red Flag exercise covers most scenarios, strategies and tactics that could occur and exposes the crew into a multinational environment providing them with a great platform for mutual learning.

PAF at Red Flag Exercise | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Bratva

How About PAF uses this approach for it's F-16's and it will save us from having multiple platforms for refueling and all planes can be re-fulled from Same IL-76?

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## PAFAce

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..that brings up an interesting question - anyone know the selection criteria for the PAF pilots sent to Red Flag?





MastanKhan said:


> Looking at the pictures---none of them are young guns---close to thirty or thirty plus---that is what it looks like.


In order to fly the F-16 in Pakistan, you must first display tremendous skill in flying one of our other platforms, namely the Mirage III/V, F-7 or (previously) the A-5 Fantan. It is considered to be a great honor to fly the front-line fighter of the PAF. Hence, the only group of pilots that could be considered more "elite" than those flying the F-16s are the ones flying the JF-17s.

That said, it is common that the pilots who are sent to such exercises are a mix of new converts and veterans. You want the veterans there so that they may decipher the strategies and tactics of other participants in great detail while refining their own, and you want the younger pilots to be there in order to pass on that knowledge for as long as possible. Expect many of these pilots to be teaching in the Combat Commander's School in the future.

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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Well yeah! but I was wondering if they picked several pilots from the same sqd or was the selection a pick of the best Viper drivers in the nation? I just wanted a feel for the thought process cause Red Flag ain't cheap...



Hi,

I beleive that Patriot and Paface have put it very nicely what the group strength looks like.


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## owais.usmani

*NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- A four-ship of F-16 Fighting Falcons from the Pakistan Air Force head to the fight after refueling July 21 during Red Flag 10-4. Red Flag is a realistic combat training exercise involving the air forces of the United States and its allies. The exercise is conducted on the 15,000-square-mile NTTR, north of Las Vegas. (U.S. Air Force photo/IT1 Steven Wolff) *












*
NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- Maintenance officers from the Pakistan Air Force oversee an early morning launch of their F-16s during Red Flag 10-4 at Nellis on July 26, 2010. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots and support personnel at the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. This is the PAF's first time participating in the Red Flag exercise. (U.S. Air Force photo/Lawrence Crespo)*

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## anathema

It is wonderful to see women officers in PAF...

Great going !


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## Dazzler

Absolutely breathtaking Red Flag 2010 video.. and the Falcon looks astounding !!!


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## razgriz19

nabil_05 said:


> Absolutely breathtaking Red Flag 2010 video.. and the Falcon looks astounding !!!
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;PAF F-16 - Red Flag&#x202c;&lrm;



old PAF video at the end.....only the take off was new..


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## Dazzler

Accolades in the Red Flag.......


http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-ne...Flag-Exercise/ 


PAF at Red Flag Exercise
By S.m. Hali | Published: August 4, 2010


Earlier this month, the Pakistan Air Force made its maiden appearance at the United States Air Force (USAF) Red Flag Exercise 10-4, a series of realistic aerial war games. The Red Flag exercises, which commenced from July 19 to July 31, have been held periodically at the Nellis Air Force Base (AFB) since 1975. Spread over 15,000 square miles of airspace north of Las Vegas, the exercise is conducted over the Nevada Test and Training Range. The purpose of these drills is to give pilots from the US, NATO and other allied countries an opportunity to practise and refine their skills, in a real world combat simulation.
The participants are divided into two teams, the Blue Team and the rather more aggressive Red Team. The Red Team is composed of Nellis AFB-based pilots, especially trained for this purpose, while the Blue Team comprises various guest &#8216;players&#8217;. The objective of the Blue Team is to destroy certain targets on the ranges, while the Red Team attempts to defend them. Both teams usually meet in the airspace, where they engage in realistic dogfights. Vantage points afford exercise umpires, observers and visitors an excellent view of the proceedings. The major US participants in the Red Flag 10-4 included B-52 Stratofortresses, F-22 Raptors and F-15E Strike Eagles. Other aircrafts in the exercise included are EA-6B Prowlers, F-15S, F-16s and F-5Es.
The USAF hosted approximately 100 PAF pilots and support personnel this time round, and in the grand scheme of things, PAF and USAF cooperation yielded big dividends for both. As fighter tactics are constantly evolving, the PAF pilots were able to display their prowess, besides also being able to observe and learn from the air forces of other nations.

The Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) operated by Nellis AFB includes 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. During Red Flag 10-4, more than 500 personnel were launching over 70 aircrafts twice a day, and KC-135s were pumping around 150,000 gallons of fuel daily. The pilots of PAF&#8217;s fleet of F-16Bs looked eager to push their aircraft to the limit, earning plaudits from the opposition.

All in all, Red Flag provided the participating PAF contingent challenging scenarios, and through teamwork and the integration of all the assets deployed it secured success. No single aircraft can handle the tactical challenges that Red Flag presents and this unique platform provides the opportunity to fly with coalition partners and prepare for future high intensity conflicts. Red Flag also provides inimitable training not just for pilots, but also for the whole crew as it replicates a full spectrum of threats. The Red Flag exercise covers most scenarios, strategies and tactics that could occur and exposes the crew into a multinational environment providing them with a great platform for mutual learning.



The PAF&#8217;s sojourn into the realm of international cooperation does not end with the conclusion of Red Flag 10-4, as the contingent will stay on to participate in Green Flag 10-9, also at Nellis Air Force Base, scheduled for August 6 to 20, 2010. As the fight in the war on terror constantly evolves, it is imperative that the PAF take part in such exercises which will help it execute the latest counter terrorist measures. The Air Warrior exercise at Nellis has officially become the USAF&#8217;s premier pre-deployment exercises for Air Combat Command flying units, who perform close-air support and precision-guided munitions delivery.

The new Green Flag programme is geared toward the current ground fight and focuses on air cover and partnership with ground forces. The USAF is using the Green Flag exercises to provide concurrent training to pilots and prepare them for the types of missions they will experience in real world operations. Green Flag is the premier training exercise preparing airmen for combat deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan where the USAF and coalition aircrew hone their air-land integration skills for success in ongoing operations. It also includes an unscripted battle exercise which provides units with training on a scale not available at their home stations.
The PAF&#8217;s participation in the two exercises will go a long way in honing its skills and validate its concepts, especially as the PAF has to deal with such situations in current operations in the tribal areas. In addition, PAF&#8217;s participation in this premier international exercise has helped build the international air force cooperation, interoperability and mutual support. It is also significant as both a tangible and symbolic demonstration of the deepening US-Pakistan strategic relationship.

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## owais.usmani



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## skybolt



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## muse

Perhaps it's early yet, but it would be interesting to read the evaluation or assessment of Pakistani performance at the Red Flag - an evaluation done by other than Pakistanis or PAF - something critical


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## muse

sorry - double post


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## skybolt

*PAF at Red Flag Exercise*
*By S.m. Hali | Published: August 4, 2010*

Earlier this month, the Pakistan Air Force made its maiden appearance at the United States Air Force (USAF) Red Flag Exercise 10-4, a series of realistic aerial war games. The Red Flag exercises, which commenced from July 19 to July 31, have been held periodically at the Nellis Air Force Base (AFB) since 1975. Spread over 15,000 square miles of airspace north of Las Vegas, the exercise is conducted over the Nevada Test and Training Range. The purpose of these drills is to give pilots from the US, NATO and other allied countries an opportunity to practise and refine their skills, in a real world combat simulation.

The participants are divided into two teams, the Blue Team and the rather more aggressive Red Team. The Red Team is composed of Nellis AFB-based pilots, especially trained for this purpose, while the Blue Team comprises various guest players. The objective of the Blue Team is to destroy certain targets on the ranges, while the Red Team attempts to defend them. Both teams usually meet in the airspace, where they engage in realistic dogfights. Vantage points afford exercise umpires, observers and visitors an excellent view of the proceedings. The major US participants in the Red Flag 10-4 included B-52 Stratofortresses, F-22 Raptors and F-15E Strike Eagles. Other aircrafts in the exercise included are EA-6B Prowlers, F-15S, F-16s and F-5Es.

The USAF hosted approximately 100 PAF pilots and support personnel this time round, and in the grand scheme of things, PAF and USAF cooperation yielded big dividends for both. As fighter tactics are constantly evolving, the PAF pilots were able to display their prowess, besides also being able to observe and learn from the air forces of other nations.

The Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) operated by Nellis AFB includes 1,900 possible targets, realistic threat systems and an opposing enemy force that cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. During Red Flag 10-4, more than 500 personnel were launching over 70 aircrafts twice a day, and KC-135s were pumping around 150,000 gallons of fuel daily. The pilots of PAFs fleet of F-16Bs looked eager to push their aircraft to the limit, earning plaudits from the opposition.

All in all, Red Flag provided the participating PAF contingent challenging scenarios, and through teamwork and the integration of all the assets deployed it secured success. No single aircraft can handle the tactical challenges that Red Flag presents and this unique platform provides the opportunity to fly with coalition partners and prepare for future high intensity conflicts. Red Flag also provides inimitable training not just for pilots, but also for the whole crew as it replicates a full spectrum of threats. The Red Flag exercise covers most scenarios, strategies and tactics that could occur and exposes the crew into a multinational environment providing them with a great platform for mutual learning.

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## Dazzler

Already posted above....


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## Chogy

Noobs at Red Flag - The U.S. would send what we called MR (Mission Ready) pilots that were fairly new, but _only on the wing of a highly-experienced flight lead._ The cluster-**** that would result from sending only noobs would be dangerous. Besides, by definition, noobs are wingmen, not flight or mission leaders., and you need experienced guys to lead flights or missions.

For Pakistan, it would be foolish to send anything except the best, because the idea would be that they in turn could relate and teach to the new guys back home. You can bet that the competition to get on that deployment was extreme.

Refueling: The rate of fuel flow between boom and drogue is very different, in favor of the boom. The boom was developed by the USAF to refuel B-52's on their way to nuke somebody, and the need to transfer vast amounts of fuel quickly was important. The US Navy went basket, because the need to do this wasn't as critical.

Where the boom shines is that it can refuel a flight (and get them back in combat or on station) MUCH faster than the basket. You can top off an F-16 in probably 1/4 the time, although I don't know the exact difference in fuel flow.

If there is a choice, boom is superior.


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## Koga Ryu

PAF at red Flag enjoy


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## razgriz19

^^^ PAF f-16s at 2:08!


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## skybolt

*Watch as aircraft from different bases around the U.S and a few from outside, all land at Nellis AFB during the Mass Recovery of Red Flag. Red Flag 10-4 featured for the very first time, the participation of the Pakistan Air Force in their F-16's. The Royal Saudi Air Force also participated again in their F-15S's. CH-47's and F-16's from the Republic of Singapore Air Force were also here. 
*





*
In order of appearance:
1. F-15 with the 142nd FW out of Oregon - CYLON1
2. EA-6B from VMAQ-3 "MOON DOGS" out of MCAS Cherry Point - TRON01
3. EA-18G from VAQ-132 "SCORPIONS" out of Whidbey Island NAS - GAMBLE01
4. PAF F-16 - RAIDER21
5. OR F-15 - CYLON4
6. EA-6B - TRON21
7. RSAF F-16 - PECOS43
8. RSAF F-16 - PECOS
9. OR F-15 - CYLON1
10. WA F-15 - FLANKER1
11. SW F-16 - WEASEL1
12. OR F-15 - CYLON1
13. SW F-16 - HARLEY11
14. RSAF F-15S - SWORD61
15. RSAF F-16 - DIGGER51
16. WA F-16 - IVAN1
17. KC-135 - BAJA01*

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## skybolt

*4 Saudi Arabian F-15S's leave the Nellis range after a Red Flag 10-4 exercise. Call Sign SWORD61*


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## skybolt

An MC-130 departs Nellis AFB during the Mass Launch of Red Flag 10-4. Call Sign TARAZAN21.


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## razgriz19

PAF f-16s are staying for green flag exercise too!
green flag focuses on CAS...
the exercise gonna start from aug 8-19


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## razgriz19

---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

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## razgriz19

*Pakistan Air Force trains at Nellis *

by Capt. Ashley Norris
Nellis Public Affairs

8/6/2010 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- *It took six days and four stops for six Pakistan Air Force pilots to fly six F-16Bs over 7,700 miles from Mushaf Air Base in northern Pakistan to Las Vegas to fly and train in Red Flag 10-4 and Green Flag 10-9 exercises at Nellis AFB. *
Approximately 100 maintenance, support and aircrew personnel arrived here in mid-July and have already completed the intense two-week Red Flag exercise, which concentrates on large force combat employment.

"Red Flag has given the PAF the opportunity to deploy its assets and personnel around the world," said Group Captain Javad Saeed, the Pakistan Detachment commander. "It has also provided a contemporary air combat training environment for our less experienced aircrew members."

*The PAF flew 57 air interdiction sorties in 12 days*. "For PAF to participate in Red Flag, it required training and proficiency on air-to-air refueling operations," Captain Saeed said. *The PAF, with U.S. Air Force support, was able to gain that proficiency and refuel 50 times for a total transfer of 110,900 pounds of jet fuel. *
The captain said deploying to Nellis has given them the opportunity to interact and operate in a joint environment, allowing every person, unit and nation involved to learn from each other. He added that Red Flag provides a rich training environment shaped by different professional forces and nations.

Red Flag 10-4 had personnel from 16 different countries, including units from Pakistan, Singapore and Saudi Arabia. Also participating was a NATO unit from Germany and U.S. Navy, Marines and Air Force units. 

"The Pakistan Air Force's participation in this world-class exercise helps to build international air force cooperation, interoperability and mutual support," said Vice Adm. Michael LeFever, the U.S. Defense representative to Pakistan. 

"The participation, together in this exercise, is not only valuable but also essential in that allied forces are the key to success," said Col. Don Godier, 20th Fighter Wing vice commander and Air Expeditionary Wing commander for Red Flag. 

Captain Saeed said that Pakistan's participation in Red Flag was useful, adding that he felt the best thing was the debriefing methodology and the tools used to bring out valid lessons.

*The Pakistan Air Force didn't leave after Red Flag but is staying for an additional three weeks in order to participate in Green Flag 10-9. Green Flag runs from Aug. 8-19 and is an exercise that focuses on close air support of ground troops. Joint terminal attack controllers working on the ground talk to pilots flying overhead and direct them in to provide close air support on the 1,000-square-mile National Training Center near Fort Irwin, Calif.*
"Pakistan and the U.S. have participated in normally scheduled exercises since 2006," said Capt. Lisa Spilinek, chief of media operations for U.S. Air Force Central Command Public Affairs. "These exercises are designed to improve U.S. and Pakistani interoperability, enhance security relationships and demonstrate U.S. resolve to support the security and humanitarian interests of our friends and allies in the region." 

"The Green Flag exercise will be a new experience for us... something new that we are looking forward to as a whole," Captain Saeed said. "Participating in both exercises gives us an opportunity to understand each other culturally and professionally, which is crucial for forces and nations dependent on each other, working for common objectives."

These unique exercises allow the U.S. and Pakistan the opportunity to enhance air force interoperability and show mutual support. By coming to Nellis to participate in Red Flag 10-4, both air forces' personnel have improved their skills and worked with and learned from one another. Green Flag 10-9 will provide the opportunity for continued growth.

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## storm seeker



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## fire_in_shadows

Source wikipedia



> India initially sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+ configuration aircraft for the ongoing Indian MRCA competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. On 17 January 2008, Lockheed Martin offered a customized version of the F-16, the F-16IN Super Viper for the Indian MMRCA contract.[87] The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft.
> 
> Lockheed Martin has described the F-16IN as "the most advanced and capable F-16 ever." Based closely on the F-16E/F Block 60 as supplied to the UAE, the features on the F-16IN include Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar,[88] GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.[89] In September 2009, F-16IN Super Viper completed a part of the field trials. Lockheed Martin officials stated that phase I of field trials was over and the week-long training phase was in preparation for Phase II of field trials, which began 7 September and lasted two weeks.



Is IAF really gonna get F16IN? and i think India is making a smart move not to participate in red flag, there is no point in joining these exercises every year when we both countries have shrink ed defense budgets specially Pakistan.


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## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Mister,
> 
> Have you ever in you stay on this board ever posted your own analysis of a stuation in detail, except to patse and post other people's articles---.
> 
> Look at your title---which mean to lead---doesnot mean to steal other peoples print materiral and post it here and get credit.
> 
> Stop threatening people and for once do something of your own.




With due respect MK - the articles Fatman posts are paid ones.

Copy paste isn't a bad thing when it comes to reporting as we do not know what Janes and AFM does, do we!

If you pay for your subscriptions that is not stealing & after all its good to post nothing if there isn't anything constructive in it.

You allegations on Fatman are unfair.

Regards:


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## Peace Sells no one buying

Bravo to the PAF for not only participating in Red Flag, but also for the oppurtunity to further gain more experience in Green Flag. The main issue here should not be about 'winning', or one upmanship -- instead experience gained should be the main metric for evaluation. Of course, I'd like to know more specifics of how the air forces did with respect to one another -- however, that information may or may not see the light of day.

Red Flag - say what you will for or against it - is a prestigious training forum that signifies a great many number of things.

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## IceCold

Does any1 have info over how or which air crafts are used specially w.r.t the red team who is the aggressive squadron?


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## SQ8

IceCold said:


> Does any1 have info over how or which air crafts are used specially w.r.t the red team who is the aggressive squadron?



F-16's simulating low end enemy jets such as the Mig-29.. and F-15's simulating the high end jets such as the SU-27 and 30 series.
Later on.. The F-16's will also switch to the Su-27 and the F-15's to the heavier cousins ala MK series.

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## IceCold

santro said:


> F-16's simulating low end enemy jets such as the Mig-29.. and F-15's simulating the high end jets such as the SU-27 and 30 series.
> Later on.. The F-16's will also switch to the Su-27 and the F-15's to the heavier cousins ala MK series.



Thks for your reply but what about jets like the F-22 raptor?


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## Stealth

Any kind of press release or USAF Nellis base offical statement on PAF performance in Red Flag kindly share it here please....


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## Super Falcon

is the exercise is over or stilll in processs and what the green flag is more extansive than red flag and who host the green flag and do they throw chalanges in red flag against naval warefare to fighter pilots to how to coop with naval threats


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## behram

Super Falcon said:


> is the exercise is over or stilll in processs and what the green flag is more extansive than red flag and who host the green flag and do they throw chalanges in red flag against naval warefare to fighter pilots to how to coop with naval threats



Yeah Red Flag is over. Green Flag is hosted by the United States Air Force at Nellis AFB, same as Red Flag. Yeah I'm sure in Green Flag you have pilots flying against destroyers or aircraft carriers stationed in the Nevada desert.


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## razgriz19

behram said:


> Yeah Red Flag is over. Green Flag is hosted by the United States Air Force at Nellis AFB, same as Red Flag. Yeah I'm sure in Green Flag you have pilots flying against destroyers or aircraft carriers stationed in the Nevada desert.



no green flag is for CAS = close air support for ground troops......

PAF really needs to perfect their skills in this kind of warfare as our troops in swat/waziristan needs help!


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## razgriz19

and btw in this green flag exercise we might see PAF f-16s in action, because i heard in green flag fighters usually carry live bombs..


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## DANGER-ZONE

*A four-ship of F-16 Fighting Falcons lead by F-16B block 15 #90615 from 9 Sqn, the PAF head to the fight after refuelling on July 21, 2010 during Red Flag 10-4*




*PAF F-16B block 15 #90613 from 9 Sqn is seen coming into land at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 29, 2010.*




*PAF F-16B block 15 #92618 from 9 Sqn is seen departing Nellis AFB during Red Flag 10-4 on July 27, 2010*

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## behram

razgriz19 said:


> no green flag is for CAS = close air support for ground troops......
> 
> PAF really needs to perfect their skills in this kind of warfare as our troops in swat/waziristan needs help!



I know what Green Flag is. And yeah I know what is CAS, I was teasing Super Falcon. CAS is probably the toughest kind of flying and exercise involved with the ground. Even the instructors admit it.


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## BATMAN

will Pakistan leave those F-16 in US for MLU or bring them back?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

BATMAN said:


> will Pakistan leave those F-16 in US for MLU or bring them back?



They will stay there for green flag.
MLU is being done by TAI of turkey.


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## behram

BATMAN said:


> will Pakistan leave those F-16 in US for MLU or bring them back?



None of the F-16s are MLU yet in PAF, when I went to Sargodha.


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## BATMAN

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> They will stay there for green flag.
> MLU is being done by TAI of turkey.



Not all of it will be done in TAI so i asked if those few will be MLU in US!
It makes more sense to leave them there instead of flying them back and again sending them over, while MLU completion time period is end of 2011.


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## ejaz007

*Pakistan Air Force trains at Nellis *


August 6, 2010 (by Capt. Ashley Norris) - It took six days and four stops for six Pakistan Air Force pilots to fly six F-16Bs over 7,700 miles from Mushaf Air Base in northern Pakistan to Las Vegas to fly and train in Red Flag 10-4 and Green Flag 10-9 exercises at Nellis AFB. 

Approximately 100 maintenance, support and aircrew personnel arrived here in mid-July and have already completed the intense two-week Red Flag exercise, which concentrates on large force combat employment.

"Red Flag has given the PAF the opportunity to deploy its assets and personnel around the world," said Group Captain Javad Saeed, the Pakistan Detachment commander. "It has also provided a contemporary air combat training environment for our less experienced aircrew members."

The PAF flew 57 air interdiction sorties in 12 days. "For PAF to participate in Red Flag, it required training and proficiency on air-to-air refueling operations," Captain Saeed said. The PAF, with U.S. Air Force support, was able to gain that proficiency and refuel 50 times for a total transfer of 110,900 pounds of jet fuel.

The captain said deploying to Nellis has given them the opportunity to interact and operate in a joint environment, allowing every person, unit and nation involved to learn from each other. He added that Red Flag provides a rich training environment shaped by different professional forces and nations.

Red Flag 10-4 had personnel from 16 different countries, including units from Pakistan, Singapore and Saudi Arabia. Also participating was a NATO unit from Germany and U.S. Navy, Marines and Air Force units.

"The Pakistan Air Force's participation in this world-class exercise helps to build international air force cooperation, interoperability and mutual support," said Vice Adm. Michael LeFever, the U.S. Defense representative to Pakistan.

"The participation, together in this exercise, is not only valuable but also essential in that allied forces are the key to success," said Col. Don Godier, 20th Fighter Wing vice commander and Air Expeditionary Wing commander for Red Flag.

Captain Saeed said that Pakistan's participation in Red Flag was useful, adding that he felt the best thing was the debriefing methodology and the tools used to bring out valid lessons.

The Pakistan Air Force didn't leave after Red Flag but is staying for an additional three weeks in order to participate in Green Flag 10-9. Green Flag runs from Aug. 8-19 and is an exercise that focuses on close air support of ground troops. Joint terminal attack controllers working on the ground talk to pilots flying overhead and direct them in to provide close air support on the 1,000-square-mile National Training Center near Fort Irwin, Calif.

"Pakistan and the U.S. have participated in normally scheduled exercises since 2006," said Capt. Lisa Spilinek, chief of media operations for U.S. Air Force Central Command Public Affairs. "These exercises are designed to improve U.S. and Pakistani interoperability, enhance security relationships and demonstrate U.S. resolve to support the security and humanitarian interests of our friends and allies in the region."

"The Green Flag exercise will be a new experience for us... something new that we are looking forward to as a whole," Captain Saeed said. "Participating in both exercises gives us an opportunity to understand each other culturally and professionally, which is crucial for forces and nations dependent on each other, working for common objectives."

These unique exercises allow the U.S. and Pakistan the opportunity to enhance air force interoperability and show mutual support. By coming to Nellis to participate in Red Flag 10-4, both air forces' personnel have improved their skills and worked with and learned from one another. Green Flag 10-9 will provide the opportunity for continued growth.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4168.html


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## PAFAce

Chogy said:


> Refueling: The rate of fuel flow between boom and drogue is very different, in favor of the boom. The boom was developed by the USAF to refuel B-52's on their way to nuke somebody, and the need to transfer vast amounts of fuel quickly was important. The US Navy went basket, because the need to do this wasn't as critical.
> 
> Where the boom shines is that it can refuel a flight (and get them back in combat or on station) MUCH faster than the basket. You can top off an F-16 in probably 1/4 the time, although I don't know the exact difference in fuel flow.
> 
> If there is a choice, boom is superior.


Superior only if you, in fact, require the quicker rate of fuel transfer. In Pakistan's case, the enemy is right next-door, we don't have to fly over the Pacific to strike at any reasonable target.

On the other hand, it seems reasonable to assume that it is far easier to modify an aircraft by adding a probe than it is to create space for a boom. In addition, probe-drogue seems to be the standard method of aerial refueling around the world, which is always a better choice for a country that wants to diversify its aircraft inventory.

In other words, in the case of Pakistan, probe-drogue may just be superior.


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## muse

> Captain Saeed said that Pakistan's participation in Red Flag was useful, adding that he felt *the best thing was the debriefing methodology and the tools used to bring out valid lessons*.



Smart! He's thinking - I wonder if could get more details - how is this different?


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> Not all of it will be done in TAI so i asked if those few will be MLU in US!
> It makes more sense to leave them there instead of flying them back and again sending them over, while MLU completion time period is end of 2011.



4 a/c are being MLUed in the US. rest in Turkey and by some reports at Kamra too.


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## Imran Khan

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

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## air marshal

Nice Photos! Keep sharing.

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## Imran Khan

same pics sir jee app or main bus 3 miutes agy peechy hai .hahhahahha look last page sir.


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## Imran Khan

air marshal said:


> Nice Photos! Keep sharing.



ye kya sir itni jaldi deete ker de i was thinking you offer me mcdonald burger for delte images and i will agree burger with pepsi love your pics sir.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> 4 a/c are being MLUed in the US. rest in Turkey and by some reports at Kamra too.



Kamra?

I know we are more than capable of doing it with technical help and we bought the stuff all at once but do you have a confirmed source? I mean if they MLU at Kamra than we might save some money though not much time.


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## anathema

So any interesting tid-bits from the excercise ? I know DACT is not about who are better, who are best...but still ...its fascinating to hear stories !

Anyone ?


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## air marshal

*August 10, 1978:* F-16 becomes first single-seat fighter to achieve accurate, unassisted delivery of laser-guided weapons.

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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> 4 a/c are being MLUed in the US. rest in Turkey and by some reports at Kamra too.



so no changes had been made to intial plans and this means all the participating f-16 will be comming home at the end of excercises.

Strange no news had spilled out of those 4 F-16 undergoing MLU since long ago and no news of transfer of MLU kits to Turkey or Kamra for remaining part.
It sounds whole MLU is getting delayed from its planned schedule and no sound reason comes to mind for delay!


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> so no changes had been made to intial plans and this means all the participating f-16 will be comming home at the end of excercises.
> 
> Strange no news had spilled out of those 4 F-16 undergoing MLU since long ago and no news of transfer of MLU kits to Turkey or Kamra for remaining part.
> It sounds whole MLU is getting delayed from its planned schedule and no sound reason comes to mind for delay!



the turkish MLU program will start in October-2010. the 4 MLU a/c in US will be returned by end 2011. - MLU is not a simple 'paint job' excercise. the whole a/c is 'stripped' to its bare bones and re-built all over again. - takes time folks!


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## fatman17

penumbra said:


> Kamra?
> 
> I know we are more than capable of doing it with technical help and we bought the stuff all at once but do you have a confirmed source? I mean if they MLU at Kamra than we might save some money though not much time.



the sequence IMO wld work this way
1. in US with PAF engineers already deputed to Utah to learn about the MLU.
2. in Turkey by TAI with PAF engineers deputed.
3. in Kamra - remember we have ordered 10 'extra' kits!!!

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## blain2

BATMAN said:


> so no changes had been made to intial plans and this means all the participating f-16 will be comming home at the end of excercises.
> 
> Strange no news had spilled out of those 4 F-16 undergoing MLU since long ago and no news of transfer of MLU kits to Turkey or Kamra for remaining part.
> It sounds whole MLU is getting delayed from its planned schedule and no sound reason comes to mind for delay!



BM,

This is speculation in my opinion. The MLU is going on as planned with the first 4 planned for return to PAF in 2012. Usually the first batch of aircraft takes the longest because they are essentially test beds for the MLU (our MLU is much different from the ones performed on the EPAF aircraft or even the one done on RJAF F-16s) so it has its own unique integration challenges etc. Once those are done, the others would proceed to Turkey for the remaining MLUs. Nothing has appeared to the contrary to suggest that MLU is off schedule.


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## Donatello

blain2 said:


> BM,
> 
> This is speculation in my opinion. The MLU is going on as planned with the first 4 planned for return to PAF in 2012. Usually the first batch of aircraft take the longest because they are essentially test beds for the MLU (our MLU is much different from the ones performed on the EPAF aircraft or even the one done on RJAF F-16s) so it has its own unique integration challenges etc. Once those are done, the others would proceed to Turkey for the remaining MLUs. Nothing has appeared to the contrary to suggest that MLU is off schedule.



My question is, Isn't 2 years a lot of time for them...because you can manufacture a new plane in less time than that?


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## owais.usmani



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## Thomas

*20th FW and Pakistani airmen reunite at Red Flag*
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123217291

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev: In a symbolic and historical event, Pakistan airmen flew six F-16Bs and 100 aircrew, maintenance and support members more than 7,700 miles from Pakistan to participate in their first Red Flag and Green Flag exercises at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. in mid-July.

There, the Pakistani airmen met up with the 77th Fighter Squadron, a past U.S. training partner from the 20th Fighter Wing, at Shaw Air Force Base, S.C.

"The deployment from home base to Nellis (AFB) was an unequivocal experience, considering the distance and the consequential use of aerial refueling," said Pakistan Air Force Group Captain Javad Saeed, the Pakistan detachment commander.

In 2006, the U.S. Air Force and the PAF came together for an exercise in Southwest Asia, said Capt. Lisa Spilinek, the 9th Air Force and U.S. Air Forces Central media operations officer. Since then, they have participated in normally scheduled exercises in that area, to improve U.S. and Pakistani interoperability and security relationships, and to demonstrate the U.S. resolve to support the security and humanitarian interests of friends and allies in the region.

"Since that exercise, the continued engagement we have had with the PAF shows our commitment to them and how important and strategic our relationship is," said Col. Don Godier, the 20th FW vice commander and the Exercise Red Flag 10-4 Air Expeditionary Wing commander.

"The spinoff of enhanced mutual respect and appreciation for one another is what has lead to continued engagements and up to Red Flag," Captain Saeed added.

"The 20th FW sent the 77th (Fighter Squadron) to participate in that 2006 exercise in support of the 9th Air Force engagement strategy focus and helped serve as a foundation for improving the interoperability between the two air forces," said Colonel Godier, who was also the 77th FS commander at that time. "During Red Flag 10-4, the 77th FS received the opportunity to fly again with the 9th FS from Pakistan, the same squadron they flew with in 2006, continuing the relationship."

Red Flag 10-4 gave both air forces the opportunity to learn and grow from each other through the opportunity to understand each other better culturally and professionally, Captain Saeed said. Both aspects are crucial for working on common objectives.

"The PAF's participation in this world-class exercise helps to build international air force cooperation, interoperability and mutual support," said Navy Vice Adm. Michael LeFever, the U.S. Department of Defense representative to Pakistan. "It is also significant as both a tangible and symbolic demonstration of the deepening U.S.-Pakistan strategic relationship."

"There is definitely a history between us and the PAF," said Capt. Max Johnson, a 77th FS F-16 pilot. "A couple of the Pakistani pilots recognized our patch and were asking us about a lot of the pilots from 2006."

Captain Johnson said he was surprised at the lack of the cultural barrier between them.

"Originally, some of us were expecting a language barrier working with (the Pakistani airmen)," the pilot said. "But, they all knew English very well. We were able to joke around with them and understand each other's jokes."

On top of all this, Red Flag gave PAF members the unique opportunity to deploy their assets and personnel halfway around the world, Captain Saeed said. It also helped provide them a contemporary air combat training environment for their less experienced aircrew.

Training together with coalition forces helps with understanding and communication, Colonel Godier said. It helps improve the effect and efficiency as combat air forces.

"Our participation together in this exercise has been not only valuable, but essential in that coalition forces are the key to success," Colonel Godier said. "It has been a long process of working together."

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## fatman17

12 August 2010

The Pakistan Air Force has been participating in Red Flag 10-4.


August 12: The Pakistan Air Force has been participating in Red Flag 10-4 and Green Flag 10-9 exercises at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada over the past month.

Six F-16Bs from 9 Squadron based at Mushaf Air Base in northern Pakistan took six days and four stops to travel the 7,700 to Las Vegas together with approximately 100 maintenance, support and aircrew personnel.

During the 12 days of Red Flag, operations the PAF flew 57 air interdiction sorties and made 50 air-to-air refuelling hook-ups. The Pakistan airmen also met up with the 77th Fighter Squadron from the 20th Fighter Wing based at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina &#8211; the 20th FW sent the 77th FS to participate in an exercise in Southwest Asia in 2006, in which the PAF was a major player. "That exercise helped serve as a foundation for improving the interoperability between the two air forces," said Colonel Don Godier, the 20th FW vice commander, who was 77th FS commander in 2006. "During Red Flag 10-4, the 77th FS received the opportunity to fly again with 9 Squadron from Pakistan, the same squadron they flew with in 2006, continuing the relationship." 

"There is definitely a history between us and the PAF," said Captain Max Johnson, a 77th FS F-16 pilot. "A couple of the Pakistani pilots recognised our patch and were asking us about a lot of the pilots from 2006."

AFM.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> the turkish MLU program will start in October-2010. the 4 MLU a/c in US will be returned by end 2011. - MLU is not a simple 'paint job' excercise. the whole a/c is 'stripped' to its bare bones and re-built all over again. - takes time folks!



sir as per my knowledge of the upgrades of the existing fleet was to be donein tow key phases,
the MLU,
the STAR upgrade.

now while USA was to go with the MLU, they agreed to provide some MLU kits so that we can get our planes upgraded to MLU standard for whereever we want.
for this phase PAF chosed Turkey and as you said, may be PAC itself is to use these kits for upgrades.

the second phase will be the STAR upgrades that are signed with TAI and will begin from 2013 onwards.

well frinds this is a recollection of information scattered all over the previous pages and more details can be found in required in older posts.

regards!


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## duhastmish

Thats why pakistani airforce have a better and clear edge toward - one on one fighter jet comparision with india.

they have better american equipments and they keep doign these excersice. where as indian are saving money and slacking in their tents eating tangoori chicken ............ 

good going Pakistan air force . another good step and money extremely well spent.


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## Myth_buster_1

skybolt said:


>



hey good pics.. btw is that a pod under the inlet?


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## skybolt




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## skybolt

*Fuel Tanker Takes To Nevada's Skies - Nice Video*​
*Link: *Fuel Tanker Takes To Nevada's Skies - Video - KVVU Las Vegas


Nellis Air Force Base is participating in an aerial war game called Red Flag 10-4 this week that trains airmen for combat.


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## razgriz19




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## skybolt




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## toppys

duhastmish said:


> Thats why pakistani airforce have a better and clear edge toward - one on one fighter jet comparision with india.
> 
> they have better american equipments and they keep doign these excersice. where as indian are saving money and slacking in their tents eating tangoori chicken ............
> 
> good going Pakistan air force . another good step and money extremely well spent.



We always have more fighters than pak so one on one doesn't help. Unless 50% of PAF fighter pilots become aces by training , I feel we need not worry. In all history of PAF vs IAF i think there are 5 people who have done more than 2 kills.


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## PAFAce

toppys said:


> We always have more fighters than pak so one on one doesn't help.


That is a fundamentally flawed thought. One on one's are not as practical as they once were, but India's numerical superiority in fighter will never actually matter in the air. Consider the following:

- India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1. This is certainly manageable, and the PAF trains specifically to fight outmatched. Exercises such as Red Flag can really help prepare a pilot for challenges like these.

- India has an extremely long border with China and a very long coast, both of which it must protect at all times. This means that at least 30-40&#37; of your fighter force will be deployed with the specific purpose of guarding your airspace against enemies other than Pakistan. Pakistan, on the other hand, will focus only on India since neither Afghanistan, Iran nor China pose any serious aerial threats to Pakistan, and our coastline is far more manageable in size.

- India's fighters, it is a well known fact, are high-maintenance. Your arsenal of Russian-made fighters will never allow you to achieve a sortie rate per plane anywhere close to what Pakistan can and will generate with its F-7s and F-16s. The JF-17s haven't been around for long enough for us to make any intelligent claims regarding its durability and reliability.

- India will, at least at the beginning of an aerial war, have to worry about two primary tasks. Maintaining air-superiority over Indian airspace, while simultaneously striving to gain an edge over Pakistani airspace. For Pakistan, the task will be much simpler earlier on. Repel the onslaught of fighters and attack aircraft, and once the enemy's capability to continue the offensive is fractured, launch a wave of targeted attacks on their air bases. In other words, whereas India will have to worry about doing many thing at once, Pakistan will have the advantage of taking things one at a time. Hence, whereas the Indian Air Force's aircraft will be divided in goal, Pakistan Air Force's will be united.

Anyway, there are a few other reasons why India's numerical aerial superiority only appears daunting on paper, but the ones I mentioned are the strongest points. That's not to say that you will not have a serious advantage over Pakistan; every Pakistani knows that war with India will not be a cake-walk in any of the three primary media of war-fighting; However, the claimed "superiority" will likely be proven to be just that, a claim.

Anyway, let us get back on topic here.

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## blain2

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir as per my knowledge of the upgrades of the existing fleet was to be donein tow key phases,
> the MLU,
> the STAR upgrade.
> 
> now while USA was to go with the MLU, they agreed to provide some MLU kits so that we can get our planes upgraded to MLU standard for whereever we want.
> for this phase PAF chosed Turkey and as you said, may be PAC itself is to use these kits for upgrades.
> 
> the second phase will be the STAR upgrades that are signed with TAI and will begin from 2013 onwards.
> 
> well frinds this is a recollection of information scattered all over the previous pages and more details can be found in required in older posts.
> 
> regards!



Arsalan,

STAR is the structural upgrade to prolong the airframe life which typically would be done prior to the avionics work up for the MLUs. Each aircraft undergoing MLU would typically (for PAF) go through STAR first. Both STAR and MLU would be done in one go after the aircraft leaves Pakistan and when it returns to Pakistan, it would have both of these upgrades done.


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## Myth_buster_1

PAFAce said:


> That is a fundamentally flawed thought. One on one's are not as practical as they once were, but India's numerical superiority in fighter will never actually matter in the air. Consider the following:
> 
> - India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1. This is certainly manageable, and the PAF trains specifically to fight outmatched. Exercises such as Red Flag can really help prepare a pilot for challenges like these.
> .



If we are talking about current scenario then yes you are right. But in the past, IAF never faced any threats from PLAAF since they were mainly concentrated to their eastern and northern sectors. In 65 and 71 war all of IAF were pitched against PAF in either active or reserve form.


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## Myth_buster_1

toppys said:


> In all history of PAF vs IAF i think there are 5 people who have done more than 2 kills.



WRONG. PAF has WELL OVER 10 pilots who have 2 kills or more.

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## blain2

Growler said:


> If we are talking about current scenario then yes you are right. But in the past, IAF never faced any threats from PLAAF since they were mainly concentrated to their eastern and northern sectors. In 65 and 71 war all of IAF were pitched against PAF in either active or reserve form.



PAFACE does have a valid point in that IAF has always maintained readiness on their border with China with part of their fleet and have not been able to bring the entire fleet for operations against Pakistan due to contingency reasons.

However even then, IAF can maintain a 2:1 edge in terms of platform against PAF.

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## pak avatar

Also our cruise missiles plus urs will effectively make all forward airbases difficult to use thereby helping paksitan secure its air space and prevent indian air supremency


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## blain2

pak avatar said:


> Also our cruise missiles plus urs will effectively make all forward airbases difficult to use thereby helping paksitan secure its air space and prevent indian air supremency



If equipped with area denial submunitions then yes, otherwise ALCM like Ra'ad are for very targeted strikes.


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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> PAFACE does have a valid point in that IAF has always maintained readiness on their border with China with part of their fleet and have not been able to bring the entire fleet for operations against Pakistan due to contingency reasons.
> 
> However even then, IAF can maintain a 2:1 edge in terms of platform against PAF.



In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1. 
on western sector it was 4:1.

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## anathema

A very nice and well written post Ace. My points below.



PAFAce said:


> - India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1.



Yes i agree with you principally. However this was the case before or atleast it is not valid hundred percent now. Why ? (Please note that i speak for myself - so no links and neither this is a confirmed operational doctrine)
IAF wouldnt mind Diverting all its aircraft or atleast majority of its a/c against PAF-- for the first few days of war. This will ensure that PAF faces overwhelming odd's. And withing first few days (3-4) PAF would be or maybe on the verge of exhausting its combat aircraft. 
IAF can then divert some of its a/c against china border.

Also for a/c like Su 30 it doesnt matter where they are stationed, with an amazing endurance - they can be diverted to Chinese border if Chinese change their mind. Also AWACS will constantly monitor Chinese airspace for any threats -- the moment IAF notices something is amiss -- they would start diverting a/c's to chinese border. So in a net centric warfare scenario -- IAF can afford to take this risk IMO .i.e maintain absolutely bare minimum a/c's on chinese border and order other squadrons for PAF challenge. 





PAFAce said:


> - India has an extremely long border with China and a very long coast, both of which it must protect at all times. This means that at least 30-40% of your fighter force will be deployed with the specific purpose of guarding your airspace against enemies other than Pakistan. Pakistan, on the other hand, will focus only on India since neither Afghanistan, Iran nor China pose any serious aerial threats to Pakistan, and our coastline is far more manageable in size.



True no denying that !



PAFAce said:


> - India's fighters, it is a well known fact, are high-maintenance. Your arsenal of Russian-made fighters *will never allow you to achieve a sortie rate per plane anywhere close to what Pakistan can* and will generate with its F-7s and F-16s. The JF-17s haven't been around for long enough for us to make any intelligent claims regarding its durability and reliability.



A fact or speculation ? Also how can you claim that F7 whos Mig 21 derivative will generate more sorties than the Bison itself ?





PAFAce said:


> - India will, at least at the beginning of an aerial war, have to worry about two primary tasks. Maintaining air-superiority over Indian airspace, while simultaneously striving to gain an edge over Pakistani airspace. For Pakistan, the task will be much simpler earlier on. Repel the onslaught of fighters and attack aircraft, and once the enemy's capability to continue the offensive is fractured, launch a wave of targeted attacks on their air bases. In other words, whereas India will have to worry about doing many thing at once, Pakistan will have the advantage of taking things one at a time. Hence, whereas the Indian Air Force's aircraft will be divided in goal, Pakistan Air Force's will be united.



Just as PAF trains to meet with a superior airforce quantitively -- IAF would for sure have considered a two front war scenario and would have planned for them. So to say that IAF will have to be worried about more things is a laymans argument. IAF will have one goal just as PAF which will be to achieve air superiority and give ground troops support they ask for. If China interferes then IAF would have to adapt or progress according to the way they have planned.



PAFAce said:


> Anyway, there are a few other reasons why India's numerical aerial superiority only appears daunting on paper, but the ones I mentioned are the strongest points. That's not to say that you will not have a serious advantage over Pakistan; every Pakistani knows that war with India will not be a cake-walk in any of the three primary media of war-fighting; However, the claimed "superiority" will likely be proven to be just that, a claim.



It will always be a claim till a war if it ever happens. However the things that IAF has planned for future does appear to be a very daunting task for PAF to match. However take the 'plan' word with truck load of salt , i dont like our government's attitude to armed forces -- everything takes time and nothing goes as planned.

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## toppys




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## anathema

toppys said:


> 8. I am not questioning that PAF needs to go to redflag, for us it is waste ,a folly to allow them to study our skills and equipment. Unless we plan to fill from uncles plane in which case who will be the enemy?



DACT excercises such as RedFlag are never waste !!! It was a good learning excercise for us.

Agreed that we had problems with data links, communication, etc. But there would have been learnings from that. For example - Techinicians, maintenance crews might have learned how other crews around the world maintain the aircraft ? Also we learned how hopelessly interoperable IAF and USAF are ! So pretty much sure IAF would have had some thoughts on how to overcome it. Furthermore we got a chance to go up against RSAF F16 - Everytime we go against F16 , either we may end up learning something OR we may end up practicing something that we know !! F16 is premier a/c that we will be facing in future in event of WAR.

For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF. 

So to say it was a waste would be a folly ! I highly encourage you to read to DACT excercises between American F18 and Polish Mig 29 , a very nice read.


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## toppys

Growler said:


> In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1.
> on western sector it was 4:1.


PAF on east did very well despite that but still it is a lost cause because of the numbers.


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## toppys

anathema said:


> DACT excercises such as RedFlag are never waste !!! It was a good learning excercise for us.
> 
> Agreed that we had problems with data links, communication, etc. But there would have been learnings from that. For example - Techinicians, maintenance crews might have learned how other crews around the world maintain the aircraft ? Also we learned how hopelessly interoperable IAF and USAF are ! So pretty much sure IAF would have had some thoughts on how to overcome it. Furthermore we got a chance to go up against RSAF F16 - Everytime we go against F16 , either we may end up learning something OR we may end up practicing something that we know !! F16 is premier a/c that we will be facing in future in event of WAR.
> 
> For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF.
> 
> So to say it was a waste would be a folly ! I highly encourage you to read to DACT excercises between American F18 and Polish Mig 29 , a very nice read.



How uncle uses F-16 is not how PAF will use it. It is just a machine and people make the difference. Unless we train with PAF pilots.


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## blain2

Growler said:


> In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1.
> on western sector it was 4:1.



Any data to quantify the fighter vs fighter 4:1 ratio? It would be educational for all here including myself to see this breakdown. Eastern sector ratio is a given due to the fact that only 14 sqn was out there against pretty much the entire IAF air command catering to that theater. However against West Pakistan, IAF resources were spread more evenly to cater to Pakistani and Chinese threats.


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## anathema

toppys said:


> How uncle uses F-16 is not how PAF will use it. It is just a machine and people make the difference. Unless we train with PAF pilots.



No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them. 
For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage ! Similarly during Yom Kippur war, Israeli's found that if you stay behind and just below a Mig 21 , they will not be able to see you -- this is due to poor visibility of a Mig 21. This helped them in their Aerial combat.


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## blain2

anathema said:


> For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF.



This goes for both the IAF and PAF (actually I must say less so for the PAF than the IAF, because PAF has been attending significant multination exercises at a very capable range in Turkey against very many European and US air forces.

The overall benefit to both PAF and IAF is that you learn how to better evaluate yourself. You get an idea as to how the first world airforces are measuring their own skills and what tools are in use.

For PAF, the Griffins got more IFR training in 14 days than they have had over the past 2 years since the initial IFR training occurred. So such things are the tangible benefits. Other things include getting qualified mission commanders out of the exercise. DACT sort of stuff happens year round in country too where PAF F-16s are pitted against other F-16s and platforms. So DACT is not the only experience to take away from this.


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## blain2

anathema said:


> No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them.
> For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage ! Similarly during Yom Kippur war, Israeli's found that if you stay behind and just below a Mig 21 , they will not be able to see you -- this is due to poor visibility of a Mig 21. This helped them in their Aerial combat.



Anathema,

The DACT between Mig-29 and F/A-18 happened more than 6-8 years ago. When this happened, the F/A-18 had none of the newer systems like the JHMCS and AIM-9x available to it to fully exploit in a turning fight against the Mig-29. The Mig-29s on the other hand had first generation HMS integrated which allowed them more employment opportunities than the F/A-18. With equal systems on the Hornet, the Mig-29 has its work cut out.


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## anathema

blain2 said:


> Anathema,
> 
> The DACT between Mig-29 and F/A-18 happened more than 6-8 years ago. When this happened, the F/A-18 had none of the newer systems like the JHMCS and AIM-9x available to it to fully exploit in a turning fight against the Mig-29. The Mig-29s on the other hand had first generation HMS integrated which allowed them more employment opportunities than the F/A-18. With equal systems on the Hornet, the Mig-29 has its work cut out.



True i understand that ! But i was giving example of how DACT exercises help pilots/air forces learn very small but valuable things. During these DACT excercises it can be safely assumed that IAF would learn about F16 capabilities and Su 30 strengths and weakness against F16.


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## dbc

anathema said:


> No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them.
> For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage !



Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPHA.

The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.

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## Donatello

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.
> 
> The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.
> 
> 
> YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II





Thanks!

F-18 if had any trouble turning, might be because of it's increased weight load that it may be carrying, which also means that two fighters, MIG 29 and F-18 will never be equally loaded, maybe one is carrying more external fuel tanks than the other.......as in one is on a strike mission while the other on interception.


Anyway, just like F-15s were out run by F-16s in dog fights.....you can never actually predict the true outcome. Too many variables.



Thanks for the video though.


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## anathema

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.
> 
> The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.
> 
> 
> YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II



Did you even bother to read what i wrote or the context in which i wrote ? Or you just jumped when you saw that i had remarked on F18 performance ? Take it easy Lady, i respect F18 and its combat record. However this was a conclusion from a DACT excercise conducted between Swiss and german AF. 


I am pasting the excerpt of the article below ! The article is quite old, i was merely explaining the importance of DACT excercise.
Note :- this article no longer holds good since hornet has also HMS...when this excercise was conducted Mig proved troublesome due to HMS that Mig had.



> German MiG-29s deployed to Switzerland to perform air combat training missions with the F/A-18C/D Hornets.
> 
> 
> Koen Aerts/Aero Topics analyses the 'Alpine close encounters' : German Luftwaffe Fulcrums against the fighter pilots of Switzerland's Hornet-equipped Staffel 11 "Tiger" Squadron.
> 
> Although primarily tasked with a role in the German air defense system, the 'MiG-29 drivers' (of Germany) saw themselves evolve into a very different player. Obsessively trained to counter Russia's latest generation fighters, the ultimate Fulcrum confrontation was - and still is - every Western fighter pilot's dream. Consequently JG 73 was overwhelmed with requests for squadron exchanges to act as a sparring partner in aerial duels. With help from the most experienced German AMRAAM operating F-4F pilots, new MiG-29 tactics were developed, based on western ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering - techniques and AIM-120 characteristics. Russia's latest generation fighter combined with the use of Western tactics and knowledge made JG 73's aircrew without doubt the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.
> 
> During the first training week basic fighter maneuvering, i.e. air combat within visual range, was practiced and the dogfight intensity was gradually built up during the first five days from 1v1 to 2v1, concluding in 2v2 on 26 April. Like many MiG opponents during previous DACT exercises, the Swiss underestimated the Fulcrum's qualities at close range. *Like the Hornet, the MiG-29 has great low speed maneuverability,
> which allows it to move its nose around in slow-speed fights.*
> 
> *The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45&#176; off the MiG's nose. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible.
> *
> One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights.
> 
> Thirdly, the Fulcrum's cockpit avionics entail considerable workload with a lot of hands-off switches and limited HUD information. When looking inside his cockpit, the MiG-29 pilot is not able to continuously monitor his tactical situation. These elements gave the Hornet drivers the means to tackle the MiG-29's splendid close-range superior performance and partly overcome the Archer off-boresight launch authority.
> 
> The Fulcrum's greatest disadvantage was unveiled during the second week, when 4v4 BVR (beyond visual range) 'hops' were performed. Although the MiG-29's radar has a 120&#176; detection capability, only a 50&#176; cone can be used for target detection and tracking. Clearly, this does not give the pilot a good overview of the tactical situation. Since the radar has to be manually steered towards the target's direction,
> the pilot greatly depends on GCI information to locate the bogey. During lock-on all other contacts are lost and no target altitude, range or speed information is provided.
> 
> The Hornet's low maintenance needs - one flight hour equals about 25 man hours of maintenance work - added to the high operational status throughout the exercise. In this field the German counterparts were in for a challenge, since one MiG-29 flight hour requires no less than 80 man hours of servicing. (!!!!)
> 
> Daily many DACT 'hops' were scheduled, averaging to about fourteen MiG-29 sorties per day, but these numbers have to be put into perspective. Each mission comprised a maximum of 25 minutes flying, which unveiled the MiG-29's Achilles heel. Being a real gas guzzler, the Fulcrum's autonomy is very restricted and considered a major worry in its air defense task. Mass-produced in a Cold War period, the Russian aircraft was mainly designed for scramble missions to intercept an intruder. Due to its limited autonomy the Fulcrum hardly fits into today's changed geopolitical strategies, where fighter aircraft are tasked with CAP (Combat Air Patrols) missions and long-range fighter escorts.
> 
> Although the installation of a centerline external fuel tank (EFT) can increase the aircraft's autonomy, this configuration has numerous downsides. Since the EFT blocks the discharge route of spent ammunition casings, the tank has to be jettisoned when using the 30mm cannon. This configuration also limits the aircraft's speed to 1.5 Mach and disables the activation of speed brakes. To partly overcome these problems modifications to seven single-seaters enabled the use of two 300 gal (1150 litre) under wing pylons. This configuration however limits the Fulcrums maneuverability to 4 G turns.


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## Donatello

anathema said:


> Did you even bother to read what i wrote or the context in which i wrote ? Or you just jumped when you saw that i had remarked on F18 performance ? Take it easy Lady, i respect F18 and its combat record. However this was a conclusion from a DACT excercise conducted between Swiss and german AF.
> 
> 
> I am pasting the excerpt of the article below ! The article is quite old, i was merely explaining the importance of DACT excercise.
> Note :- this article no longer holds good since hornet has also HMS...when this excercise was conducted Mig proved troublesome due to HMS that Mig had.






Would you please stop this MIG29 vs F-18 non-sense. This thread is for Red Flag and PAF. Please talk about that.


You are more than welcome to open a thread for any discussion you may desire so.


Thanks!


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## anathema

penumbra said:


> Would you please stop this MIG29 vs F-18 non-sense. This thread is for Red Flag and PAF. Please talk about that.
> 
> 
> You are more than welcome to open a thread for any discussion you may desire so.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



If doesnt make sense to you then it is non sense ?

Anyways i was pointing out importance of DACT excercises -- anyways i will refrain from posting f18 topics. thanks.


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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.
> 
> The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.
> 
> 
> YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II



Yes indeed F-18 is quite maneuverable. In the Farnbrough air show the F-18 performed very well, it did made some hard tight turns and it actually did just as good as F-16.


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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> Any data to quantify the fighter vs fighter 4:1 ratio? It would be educational for all here including myself to see this breakdown. Eastern sector ratio is a given due to the fact that only 14 sqn was out there against pretty much the entire IAF air command catering to that theater. However against West Pakistan, IAF resources were spread more evenly to cater to Pakistani and Chinese threats.




The IAF units were organised on regional basis, within three operational commands and an independent group. Most of the units were concentrated within the Western Air Command and the Eastern Air Command, of which the later was responsible for supporting the invasion of East Pakistan, while the balance was assigned to the Central Air Command. 
*
Eastern Air Command*
HQs at Shillong, near Calcutta
AOC-in-C Air Marshal H.C. Dewan
Sector Jessore (western East Pakistan)
- No.2 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Dum Dum then Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Greene)
- No.7 Squadron, 16 Hunter F.Mk.56 & 2 Hunter T.Mk.66, based at Baghdogra; 6 December eight Hunters to Nal, balance of unit to Hindon; on 12 December all aircraft to Pathankot, Chhamb sector (CO Wg.Cdr. Coelho, then Wg.Cdr. Suri)
- No.14 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. Sunderesan)
- No.16 Squadron, Canberra B(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. Gautam)
- No.22 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Dum Dum and Kalaikunda, then Calcutta (CO Wg.Cdr. B.S. Sikand)
- No.30 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. V.S. Chadha)
- No.221 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Panagarh (until 14 December), (CO Wg.Cdr. Sridharan)
- No.104 Helicopter Unit, SA.316B Alouette III, based at ?
- No.110 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Dum Dum

Sector Sylhet-Comila (eastern East Pakistan)
- No.15 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based in Gauhati, later to Agartala (CO Wg.Cdr. M.M. Singh)
- No.17 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Hashimara (CO Wg.Cdr. N. Chatrath)
- No.24 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Gauhati (CO Wg.Cdr. R.L. Bhadwar)
- No.28 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Gauhati (CO Wg.Cdr. B.K. Bishnoi)
- No.105 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based at Agartala
- No.121 Helicopter Unit, SA.316B Alouette III, based at?

*Most of the IAF, a total of 24 fighter and fighter-bomber squadrons, and four squadrons were deployed within the Western Air Command, as follows:*

*Western Air Command*
HQ at New Delhi
CO Air Marshal Minoo Merwan Engineer
Sector Kashmir and Chhamb
- No.1 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Upkar Singh)
- No.3 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Sirsa, then Hindon/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Dogra)
- No.18 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Srinagar (CO Wg.Cdr. Raina)
- No.20 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Parker)
- No.23 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Mohan)
- No.26 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Batra)
- No.27 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Mehta)
- No.31 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Hindon/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Trehan)
- No.32 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Manget)
- No.45 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Chandigarh, then Pathankot, finally Nal (CO Wg.Cdr. Anand)
- No.101 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Khanna)
- No.108 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Halwara, then Chandigarh (CO Wg.Cdr. Deshmukh)
- No.120 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Nal (CO ?)
- No.222 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. DCosta)
- TACDE (one flight), MiG-21FL, based at Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Mukerjee)
- TACDE (one flight), Su-7BMK, based at Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Mukerjee)

Sector Naya Chor and Ramgarh Desert
- No.10 Squadron, 16 HF-24 Maruts & 2 Hunter T.Mk.66s, based at Uttarlai/Jodhpur (CO Wg.Cdr. Aggarwal)
- No.21 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Uttarlai/Ahmedabad (CO Wg.Cdr. Malik)
- No.29 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Hindon, det. at Uttarlai (CO Wg.Cdr. Swardekar)
- No.122 Operational Training Unit, 4 Hunter F.Mk.56 & T.Mk.66, based at Jaisalmer, (CO Wg.Cdr. D.M. Conquest)
- No.220 Squadron, HF-24 Marut, based at Uttarlai/Jodhpur (CO Wg.Cdr. Dhawan)

Sector Rann of Kutch and Gulf of Kutch
- No.6 Squadron, L-1049 Constellation, based at Poone
- No.35 Squadron, Canberra B.(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Poone (CO Wg.Cdr. Badhwar)
- No.47 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Jamnagar/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Gill)
- No.106 Squadron, Canberra PR.Mk.57, based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. Thakar)
- JBCU, Canberra (different marks), based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. S.Thakar)

*Central Air Command*
- No.5 Squadron, Canberra B(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. Talwar)
- No.8 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Poone (CO Wg.Cdr. Sen)
- No.9 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Jamnagar, later Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Yadav)

- No.107 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa
- No.109 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa
- No.111 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa

Transport Units
- No.11 Squadron, HS.748, based in Palam
- No.12 Squadron, C-119G, based at Chandigarh
- No.19 Squadron, C-119G, based at Chandigarh
- No.25 Squadron, An-12B, based at Chandigarh
- No.33 Squadron, DHC Caribou, based at ?
- No.41 Squadron, DHC Otter, based at Agra, (CO Wg.Cdr. Vashist)
- No.42 Squadron, Il-14, based at Palam
- No.43 Squadron, C-47, based at ?
- No.44 Squadron, An-12B, based at Chandigarh
- No.48 Squadron, C-119G, based at Tezpur
- No.49 Squadron, C-47, based at ?
- No.59 Squadron, DHC Otter, based at ?


source: acig.org



Like i have said, PLAAF was no were near Indian border to pose some sort of threat to India that it would force them to split their fleet by 50-50 for China and Pakistan. But yes some IAF squadron were reserved for chinese factor. 
Indian Navy also had Naval combat fighters.

Dont forget PAF had in total 200 combat planes for all of that.


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## Tshering22

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well Red Flag is a costly affair for us and cant be done every year. Might be next year who knows. Definitely not this year. This year it is Cope India 2010. We cant spend $10 million every year for those exercises.


Truely said, man. Besides, I think alternate years also gives time enough for IAF to re-inforce anything new we learn from the exercised that have been done. The weirdly funny thing is, we still know only half of our threat perception: PAF.

We have no idea what PLAAF's doctrine would be in case of a conflict so it become even more complex.


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## Donatello

anathema said:


> If doesnt make sense to you then it is non sense ?
> 
> Anyways i was pointing out importance of DACT excercises -- anyways i will refrain from posting f18 topics. thanks.





Don't even get me started.

What you can't seem to understand is that this is a thread for PAF and it's participation in Red Flag and Green Flag.

Not about IAF and it's fighters.
Now what part of it you don't get?


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## Luftwaffe

Come back to the topic will you indian discussions in indian section. Mods take notice.

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## owais.usmani

*NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- A crew chief from the 57th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron, Viper Aircraft Maintenance Unit marshals an F-16 assigned to the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron to perform a post flight end-of-runway inspection after a Green Flag West 10-9 training mission at Nellis, on August 11, 2010. The 422 TES is training with the Royal Saudi and Pakistan Air Forces during the exercise. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo) *
















*NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- Capt. Andy Labrum, close air support instructor, 549th Combat Training Squadron oversees a debrief session between U.S., Royal Saudi Arabia and Pakistan Air Force pilots and joint terminal attack controllers (JTAC) after a training mission during Green Flag West 10-9 exercise. The coalition aircraft launch from Nellis AFB and fly to the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, Calif. to train on close air support during Green Flag-West. The exercise provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo) *















*NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- Royal Saudi and Pakistan Air Force members update their prospective flight line status boards at the Green Flag maintenance operation center (MOC) during the Green Flag West 10-9 exercise at Nellis on August 11. The MOC controllers ensure a smooth transition of all the maintenance activities during daily flying operations. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)*















*NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- (top right) Group Captain Hatmi, Pakistan Air Force briefs fellow crew members prior to participating in Green Flag West 10-9 exercise at Nellis on August 11. The U.S. Air Force is hosting the Pakistan and Royal Saudi Air Force's pilots and support personnel during Green Flag-West exercise August 9 - 20 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo) *​

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## Sapper

owais.usmani said:


> *NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- (top right) Group Captain Hatmi, Pakistan Air Force briefs fellow crew members prior to participating in Green Flag West 10-9 exercise at Nellis on August 11. The U.S. Air Force is hosting the Pakistan and Royal Saudi Air Force's pilots and support personnel during Green Flag-West exercise August 9 - 20 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo) *​



In this picture, Captain Waseem (bottom left) is wearing A-5 patch alongside the Griffin Squadron Patch. A-5s are to be decommissioned within this year or next year max, and replaced with JF-17. I think its a good move to bring along pilots who will be transferring to JF-17s, and training them along-side viper pilots.

Kudos to PAF.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Patriot

Well Captain Waseem might be training along side Viper pilots because he might be transferred to Vipers soon.


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## Donatello

Patriot said:


> Well Captain Waseem might be training along side Viper pilots because he might be transferred to Vipers soon.



Actually, i would really like to know what the promotion scene is in PAF.

because in the next year, starting now, we are getting JF-17s and F-16s both of which are way above any F-7s or Mirage we have. So like how are the pilots gonna be distributed among them.


I am sure selecting between JF-17 or F-16, both are tough choice.


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## Patriot

Well Jf-17 will be replacing old mirages.So i think pilot of mirages which will be decommissioned will fly JF-17.X-man can tell us more about this.


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## Manticore

penumbra said:


> *Actually, i would really like to know what the promotion scene is in PAF.*
> 
> because in the next year, starting now, we are getting JF-17s and F-16s both of which are way above any F-7s or Mirage we have. So like how are the pilots gonna be distributed among them.
> 
> 
> I am sure selecting between JF-17 or F-16, both are tough choice.


here u go


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/25895-how-pilots-assigned-different-squadrons.html


judging by the sheer numbers, paf is no joke

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## Donatello

Patriot said:


> Well Jf-17 will be replacing old mirages.So i think pilot of mirages which will be decommissioned will fly JF-17.X-man can tell us more about this.



See, thats the case.


JF-17 replaces at least 250 aircrafts among Mirage and F-7 and A5s.

Those total more than 350.

Then we have upcoming 60 f-16s
Then at least 36 j-10s but 2014.


So even if the JF-17 doesn't replace all the 350 aircraft, we have pilots who need to be trained between F-16s, j-10 and JF-17s.


Now who goes where depends alot on the number of aircraft.


As earlier in the nineties it was that simply the best pilots from the Mirage and F-7 squadrons would go to fly the F-16 which was a coveted position to be in.


Now with the coming j-10s and jf-17s there is no such thing as coveted f-16s........thats a whole bunch of new pilots....actually a new breed......right from PAF Academy to CCS.

I mean, after 2015, even the lowest ranking pilot would be flying a capable aircraft like Jf-17 which requires a whole multitude of skills as opposed to simple jet training of F-7s.


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## Donatello

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/25895-how-pilots-assigned-different-squadrons.html
> 
> 
> judging by the sheer numbers, paf is no joke
> 
> YouTube - THE BEST AIR FORCES IN THE WORLD 2010-2016 (TOP 30 MOST POWERFULL and LATIN AMERICA'S ONES LIST)





No one said PAF is a joke.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

@penumbra.....
Dude ROSE upraded Mirages will stay for a little long! And so will the newly bought,upgraded(BVR capable F-7Ps)!

Also PAF is getting 100 plus F-16s kindly do look at the F-16 discussion thread!

And 36 is the* initial *batch of J-10Bs or FC-20 the number will reach 125-150 jets!

Now 250 or more JF-17s.

Do the math.


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## Patriot

penumbra I expect training to gradually improve and become more high tech.Just in 6-9 years PAF will be fully modernized with latest technology.Pilots will also learn how to use datalinks with AWACS etc.


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## Manticore

penumbra said:


> No one said PAF is a joke.



im checking out bharat rakshak for some days-- i guess im spending too much time there!





i enjoy there threads on pakistani purchses , particularly the free items we are getting


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## Areesh

ANTIBODY said:


> im checking out bharat rakshak for some days-- i guess im spending too much time there!



Yeah you were on the wrong place. Tell those guys to have a small chat with IAF pilots of 60's and 70's era. They will tell them what is PAF.


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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Donatello

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @penumbra.....
> Dude ROSE upraded Mirages will stay for a little long! And so will the newly bought,upgraded(BVR capable F-7Ps)!
> 
> Also PAF is getting 100 plus F-16s kindly do look at the F-16 discussion thread!
> 
> And 36 is the* initial *batch of J-10Bs or FC-20 the number will reach 125-150 jets!
> 
> Now 250 or more JF-17s.
> 
> Do the math.





My fellow member,

Those 100 F-16s are still in the pipeline. Not confirmed. With the floods we might have to cancel them.


Today PAF has 400+ combat aircraft.

Looking at your numbers it means PAF would have 500+ by 2015....that's a tall order and requires improved financing and infrastructure support.


PAF would love to have F-16s but it may not be the cheapest.

Also, no J-10B has currently flown by a PAF squadron, still in testing phase so we really don't know how many will we procure.


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## MastanKhan

Sapper said:


> In this picture, Captain Waseem (bottom left) is wearing A-5 patch alongside the Griffin Squadron Patch. A-5s are to be decommissioned within this year or next year max, and replaced with JF-17. I think its a good move to bring along pilots who will be transferring to JF-17s, and training them along-side viper pilots.
> 
> Kudos to PAF.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Hi,

Whats up with the ranks on the shoulder patches---those are not our standard rank patches for the AF---. Is it because we are in the U S or ---


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## Zulfiqar

> Hi,
> 
> Whats up with the ranks on the shoulder patches---those are not our standard rank patches for the AF---. Is it because we are in the U S or ---



They have been for some years now. PAF changed from those ribbons to these.


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## behram

M Zulfiqar Asad said:


> They have been for some years now. PAF changed from those ribbons to these.



Terrible ranks thanks to ACM Tanvir. Losing tradition day by day in the PAF.


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## Quwa

behram said:


> Terrible ranks thanks to ACM Tanvir. Losing tradition day by day in the PAF.


The rank badges are a non-issue, but my understanding is that it was changed to guide those local and foreign people unfamiliar with the British system. That said, the terms are still being used...e.g Flt Lt, Sqd Ldr, Wg Cdr, etc. Secondly, we need to start abandoning traditions that are not conducive to fostering brotherhood and meritocracy in the forces.

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## MastanKhan

M Zulfiqar Asad said:


> They have been for some years now. PAF changed from those ribbons to these.



Hi,

I like that----they should be changed in pakistanb as well---same ranks as the army---same insignia as that of the army---maybe the paf will get its feet back on the ground ---get its head back on the ground and be more in synch with the ground forces.


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I like that----they should be changed in pakistanb as well---same ranks as the army---same insignia as that of the army---maybe the paf will get its feet back on the ground ---get its head back on the ground and be more in synch with the ground forces.





Why does it have to be an issue? Whether they are on the ground or not is irrespective of their abilities.

PAF to this day is probably one of the few efficient organizations in the country.....probably even more than the army.


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## behram

Mark Sien said:


> The rank badges are a non-issue, but my understanding is that it was changed to guide those local and foreign people unfamiliar with the British system. That said, the terms are still being used...e.g Flt Lt, Sqd Ldr, Wg Cdr, etc. Secondly, we need to start abandoning traditions that are not conducive to fostering brotherhood and meritocracy in the forces.



Well every AVM I've met looks now like a JCO with these new ranks, also with other ranks mentioned. And 2nd of all its the Turkish system the PAF has adopted during the year of 2006 and onwards.


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## fatman17

it was done to create the 'perception' of equality within the armed forces.

P/O = 2nd lt
F/O = lt
F/lt = capt
SL = Major
WgC = lt.Col

and so on......

personally i prefer the 'old system'


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> it was done to create the 'perception' of equality within the armed forces.
> 
> P/O = 2nd lt
> F/O = lt
> F/lt = capt
> SL = Major
> WgC = lt.Col
> 
> and so on......
> 
> personally i prefer the 'old system'



Sir, sometimes change is good.

And this new change in the insignia for PAF seems to be good, as now people can understand whom they are watching meaning what is the rank and even if they don't know the rank terminology, by correlating it with the Army rank structure, you can easily know what is the rank of the PAF officer. Before this rank structure came, i had no idea who the officer was, couldn't differentiate between a P/O, F/O, F/Lt or anyone above. Only the strap at the color showed this guy is Wing Comd or above. 

Plus, the new rank structure does looks cool and the PAF uniform now is more attractive. 

Also, its been 6 decades since the British have gone, time to make some changes and leave aside their ancestral gifts. 

I recommend Navy should also give it a thought and change theirs too, as that is not also readable except for the senior ranks. 

Before the change, the PAF officers looked like NCOs/JCOs as you couldn't differentiate, now they look officers


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## behram

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, sometimes change is good.
> 
> And this new change in the insignia for PAF seems to be good, as now people can understand whom they are watching meaning what is the rank and even if they don't know the rank terminology, by correlating it with the Army rank structure, you can easily know what is the rank of the PAF officer. Before this rank structure came, i had no idea who the officer was, couldn't differentiate between a P/O, F/O, F/Lt or anyone above. Only the strap at the color showed this guy is Wing Comd or above.
> 
> Plus, the new rank structure does looks cool and the PAF uniform now is more attractive.
> 
> Also, its been 6 decades since the British have gone, time to make some changes and leave aside their ancestral gifts.
> 
> I recommend Navy should also give it a thought and change theirs too, as that is not also readable except for the senior ranks.
> 
> Before the change, the PAF officers looked like NCOs/JCOs as you couldn't differentiate, now they look officers



Every PAF pilot I've met, hates the new ranks. And the uniform has changed accordingly the last few years(not at all impressed with it).


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## SQ8

behram said:


> Every PAF pilot I've met, hates the new ranks. And the uniform has changed accordingly the last few years(not at all impressed with it).



Every old PAF pilot curse them too, they all lament the quality of officers too... too much mediocrity and sycophantic trend setters all over the forces.


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## Chogy

Interesting - I was in a cafe near Alliance Airport, Ft Worth, Texas, and there were three USAF officers in green flight suits, and a Pakistani pilot with them. His shoulder rank had me baffled. At first glance he looked like a 3-star general, but that lasted about 1/10th of a second, as we was far too young.

How does PAF rank define where you fly in a flight or mission? In the USAF, rank defines your authority on the ground, but within the squadron, there are generally the Commander, XO, and "everyone else." Respect is gained by ability in the air, and it was entirely normal to see a 1Lt (2nd lowest officer rank) lead a flight of four, with Majors or Lt Colonels on the wing, because the 1Lt was by far the better pilot.

The bulk of the best in the USAF are usually junior Captains (O-3) and 1Lt (O-2), because they spend the bulk of their time refining the art, while higher ranks do more administration and paperwork.

In the PAF, is there ever an issue with a junior officer leading a flight with a more senior officer on the wing?


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## TaimiKhan

behram said:


> Every PAF pilot I've met, hates the new ranks. And the uniform has changed accordingly the last few years(not at all impressed with it).



Well this is human nature, disliking and resistant to change. 

Our military mindset is of that nature, they don't like change, nor want it and will resist it.


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## Patriot

Chogy said:


> Interesting - I was in a cafe near Alliance Airport, Ft Worth, Texas, and there were three USAF officers in green flight suits, and a Pakistani pilot with them. His shoulder rank had me baffled. At first glance he looked like a 3-star general, but that lasted about 1/10th of a second, as we was far too young.
> 
> How does PAF rank define where you fly in a flight or mission? In the USAF, rank defines your authority on the ground, but within the squadron, there are generally the Commander, XO, and "everyone else." Respect is gained by ability in the air, and it was entirely normal to see a 1Lt (2nd lowest officer rank) lead a flight of four, with Majors or Lt Colonels on the wing, because the 1Lt was by far the better pilot.
> 
> The bulk of the best in the USAF are usually junior Captains (O-3) and 1Lt (O-2), because they spend the bulk of their time refining the art, while higher ranks do more administration and paperwork.
> 
> In the PAF, is there ever an issue with a junior officer leading a flight with a more senior officer on the wing?


Sir,
This was posted by x-man and MUradk (Ex-PAF Officer) before when someone asked them questions about promotion and some other things.



> A very complicated question I will just go through a few points.
> 
> When you graduate from the Academy you go to FCU Which is the first stage of you becoming a fighter Pilots after that you go to OCU by the time you reach OCU a lot of boys don't make it. There are thousands of factors from which you can be suspendid, In OCU we see how the boy in Air how good is he in studies , weight, and a lot more. When you graduate OCU PAF will see that ok this boy is good in studies his mind is faster than the fighter his weight is excellent if a spot is open in 11OCU he goes to F-16 rest according to the above are sent on different fighters. Sometimes pilots gain weight very quickly after academy now you dont want to put a 230 pound pilot in a 9 g fighter and so on.
> Question 2 is also answered.
> now this question is wrong
> 
> *how are base commanders of different squadrons appointed rather than to upgrade them to more hiteck jets suppose f-16s? is age a factor here?*
> 
> First Base commanders don't command Fighter SQD, a SQD Commander does. A Base Commander commands the whole base and every base has a wing which is commanded by OC flying. So the base commander sits on the top. From the day you pass out from Academy your ACR is done every year than they see what kind of pilot were you how much score did you pull in CCS how was your tenure as a Flight Commander OPS or Training how good an instructor were you what qualifications do you have are you a Green Card, Master Green, White card , Master white all these things make up your resume which goes to DCAS OPS in AHQ he decided how goes where.
> now remember there are only 2 people in PAF who have power the COAS and a SQD COMMANDER because of the fire power he has under him. A Sqd Cmd decides what is good from his SQD he can over ride the decision of the OC flying and the Base commander at any time without telling them.
> Just because you are flying an F-16 doesn't mean you will fly JF-17 or a new plane like I said the above is taken into consideration.





> Sir MuradK also replied to your queries, so I will just add few more points..
> 
> Unlike many other airforces that segregate the fighter and transport/helicopter pilots at a very early stage, PAF trains everyone to become a Fighter pilot. However barring few exceptions, the unsuccessful ones who are generally dropped from the OCUs or considered unsuitable for fighter flying are either sent to helicopters or to the transport aircrafts.
> 
> Until late 80s/early 90s majority of pilots did OCU on F-6. When F-7s arrived, there were parallel OCUs of both F-6 and F-7. And since F-6s phased out, now we have only the F-7 OCUs.
> 
> When only F-6 was in OCU, the successful pilots were equally split between A-5 and F-6 squadrons. The choice of aircraft was usually made by the students or depending upon the requirements, the seniors will make the decision. After spending 3 to 4 years in an F-6/A-5/F-7 squadron, pilots are then moved onto either Mirage or F-16. Selection mainly depends upon ones :-
> 
> 1. Flying performance in various roles.
> 2. Annual Evaluation reports.
> 3. Squadron commanders recommendation.
> 
> PAF trains every pilot in each role no matter which aircraft one is assigned to. For example, while A-5 pilots extensively fly in the ground attack role, but they also have to fly a good chunk of air combat missions every year. They do fly similar and dissimilar air combat missions a lot. Similarly, while an F-7 pilots basic role is air superiority but they do fly lots of staffing, bombing and strike missions too. Hence when a pilot switches from an A-5 to F-16, its not difficult for him to grasp the air combat role or vice versa.
> 
> So presently there are two routes to climb up the ladder:-
> 
> 1. OCU on F-7---> 2 or 3 years in F-7/A-5 ------> Mirage ( another 2 years)-----> F-16
> 2. OCU on F-7---> 3 to 4 years in F-7/A-5 ------>straight to F-16
> 
> Hopefully once we have JF-17, FC-20 and Block 52s in our inventory and no more F-7/A-5/Mirage, the routes could be:-
> 
> 1. OCU on JF-17---> 2 or 3 years in JF-17 ------>F-16 MLU ( another 2 years)-----> F-16 Block 52
> 2. OCU on JF-17---> 2 or 3 years in JF-17 ------>FC-20
> 3. OCU on JF-17---> 2 or 3 years in JF-17 ------>FC-20( another two years)-----> F-16 Block 52
> 
> What I have seen and learnt that IAF also follows a similar pattern. Their base fighter is Mig-21 and from there they move up the ladder to Mig 23/Mig 27/Jaguar----> Mig 29/ Mirage-2000 and then onto SU-30. There can be few variations in this path but this is how it generally works.

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## TOPGUN

And pic's from green flag guys?


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## behram

Chogy said:


> Interesting - I was in a cafe near Alliance Airport, Ft Worth, Texas, and there were three USAF officers in green flight suits, and a Pakistani pilot with them. His shoulder rank had me baffled. At first glance he looked like a 3-star general, but that lasted about 1/10th of a second, as we was far too young.
> 
> How does PAF rank define where you fly in a flight or mission? In the USAF, rank defines your authority on the ground, but within the squadron, there are generally the Commander, XO, and "everyone else." Respect is gained by ability in the air, and it was entirely normal to see a 1Lt (2nd lowest officer rank) lead a flight of four, with Majors or Lt Colonels on the wing, because the 1Lt was by far the better pilot.
> 
> The bulk of the best in the USAF are usually junior Captains (O-3) and 1Lt (O-2), because they spend the bulk of their time refining the art, while higher ranks do more administration and paperwork.
> 
> In the PAF, is there ever an issue with a junior officer leading a flight with a more senior officer on the wing?



Yeah it is pretty similar with USAF, but increase in ranks happen in PAF generally with the amount of time a pilot has spent in the air force. So you will see a flight lieutenant leading a 4 ship, with a squadron leader on his wing, but the squadron leader has spent more time in the air force, and therefore is senior.


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## air marshal

*A Green Flag mission: from cradle to grave*

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. -- "Three, two, one, hack. The time is now zero nine forty; let's get started," said Capt. Andy Labrum, the operations supervisor for Green Flag.

Captain Labrum began the aircrew mass brief Aug. 11 with roll call, making sure that all aircrew, intelligence and Army liaison personnel were present, and quickly moved into the objectives for the fourth exercise day of Green Flag-West operations.

Green Flag-West's mission is to provide realistic air-land scenarios, preparing allies and U.S. forces for deployments and modern close air support in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The first seven days of every Green Flag exercise are focused on practicing CAS in isolated tactical scenarios for more than 6,000 Army, Marine and Air Force troops at the 1,000-square-mile National Training Center near Fort Irwin, Calif.

The day's mission was preplanned and the flight objectives set: interact with the joint tactical air controllers, perform lethal CAS, drop inert bombs, escort convoys and receive a nine-line tasking from JTACs. Days eight to thirteen of the Green Flag exercise will be a continuous war-time scenario that will escalate and change depending upon how the players interact and react to their enemy.

A key point that is practiced throughout both weeks is nine-line procedures. Nine-lines are standardized across all allied forces so that a JTAC, on the ground, can call in an aircraft and tell them where the good guys are, where the bad guys are and what they want the airplane to do to the bad guys.

This is laid out in the Joint CAS publication 3-09.3, which standardizes how airborne forces employ weapons in close proximity to friendly forces without committing fratricide, explained Maj. James Barlow, director of operations for the 549th Combat Training Squadron.

"Almost all fratricide incidents occur from failure to follow these procedures," he said.

No air-to-air refueling was planned for this mission, so flying times were limited and a few changes were made by Captain Labrum to ensure mission success and that CAS was constantly available for the ground players.

As the brief continued, they discussed emergency runways, weather conditions and new intelligence. The mass brief wound down with a review of common mistakes made and lessons learned from the previous day's missions.

The 22 aircrew members split up into their individual flights of two aircraft for their flight briefings. They discussed in detail their individual missions, objectives, threats, weapons and tactics.

Capt. Mike Albrecht, pilot and flight leader for a two ship formation of F-15E Eagles from the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron, gave the briefing for Strike 1-1 and Strike 1-2. With efficiency and an arsenal of acronyms, Captain Albrecht ran through the fundamentals of the upcoming flight.

*Mission objective:* support the ground commander's intent.

Tactical objective: 100 percent adherence to the Rules of Engagement, SPINS (Special Instructions) and Joint CAS publication JP 3-09.3; effective use of sensors; 100 percent target and friendly force identification; maintain situational awareness; 100 percent hits with DWE (desired weapons effect).

*Threats:* small arms and MANPADS (Man Portable Air Defense System, or missiles).

They break for a few minutes to scarf down some lunch, and between bites, Capt. Chad Shenk, the pilot for Strike 2-2, joked that a bratwurst with mustard and ketchup was the best thing to eat before a flight. Minutes later, as the crew of Strike flight stepped to life support, the jokes stopped and the war began as they put on their G-suits and preflighted their aircraft.

Over the next two hours, U.S. Air Force, Royal Saudi Air Force and Pakistan Air Force flights talked over the radio with Marine JTACs located on the ground at the NTC. The JTACS gave the flights nine-lines that led them to drop bombs, follow enemy convoys or do shows of force flyovers. Flights often worked together to find and destroy enemy targets, increasing every participant's skills in close air support capability and interoperability between air forces.

All the while, Captain Labrum and two civilian contractors monitored everything that happened at the NTC from the War Room in the Green Flag building at Nellis. Captain Labrum watched and listened to all the operations. He observed the entire exercise and found tactical lessons learned, highlights and deviations from JP 3-09.3 to review during the debrief. If necessary he had the ability to contact aircrew or JTAC members over the radio to prevent any unsafe actions from occurring.

"I'm the liaison between the supervisor of flying, my commander and anybody else who has a play in Green Flag," he said.

Marine JTACs imbedded with the Army at the NTC directed aircraft to provide CAS via low passes, strafing and dropping bombs on targets or providing armed escort to convoys. From 1-3:30 p.m., 14 aircraft flew over the NTC and made 20 passes, attacks or shows of force and dropped six bombs in addition to all the simulated weapons they employed.

The aircraft rotated through their scenarios, and after the last player landed, a mass debrief was held in the War Room. Each flight leader and JTAC, via radio, discussed every scenario, nine-line and weapon that was employed. They discussed confusing points, correct and incorrect tactics and mistakes. They learned from each other and learned how different aircraft, allies and services operate and how to enhance interoperability, since this is the first Green Flag exercise for the Pakistani and Royal Saudi Air Forces.

Captain Labrum closed out the briefing, encouraging the crews to keep up the fight. As he reflected on that mission, he hoped that if they only learn one thing from Green Flag, it is the Joint CAS publication 3-09.3.

"We live and die by the 3-09.3 in the CAS world."

A Green Flag mission: from cradle to grave

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Myth_buster_1

Does anyone know what kind of pod is it carrying?


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## hataf

>




you r asking about this well .. . . .

this is not a pod but laser guided bomb . . .

on tip its sensor for laser detection

another image

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## Zulfiqar

> you r asking about this well .. . . .
> 
> this is not a pod but laser guided bomb . . .
> 
> on tip its sensor for laser detection



If you can see closely the F-16 in the background is carrying a pod under its air intake.


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## Thomas

Growler said:


> Does anyone know what kind of pod is it carrying?



Looks like an ACMI sensor pod

http://www.cubic.com

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## hataf

its . . . .
Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night, or LANTIRN pod . . . . .


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## Manticore

finally the sound is activated -- enjoy


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## DANGER-ZONE

*what kind of Instrument/pod this is, on wingtip.?? 
what is this use for? and i ve also seen similar pod without any antennas, on wing tip.?*


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## DANGER-ZONE

hataf said:


> you r asking about this well .. . . .
> 
> this is not a pod but laser guided bomb . . .
> 
> on tip its sensor for laser detection
> 
> another image



hes asking about the POD under intake Mate


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## Chogy

The wingtip device with the antennas is an ACMI pod. It transmits positional and air-data real-time to a ground-based computer, as well as things like weapons-actuation and other data. During debrief, the information can be used to place the jet on a computer like a 3D video game, and everyone can see exactly what happened. They are used in all large-scale exercises and are incredibly valuable tools.

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## hataf

danger-zone said:


> hes asking about the POD under intake Mate





hataf said:


> its . . . .
> Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night, or LANTIRN pod . . . . .



i think, i have explained a bit and also pakistan only have LANTIRN pod till now . . . 

an other image





hare is link Laser Guided Bombs - Smart Weapons


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## Patriot

Not for long.Sniper Pod would be coming soon.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2333.html
May 14, 2007 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The U.S. government has awarded a contract to Lockheed Martin for 18 Sniper(R) Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP), a part of the new Advanced block 52 F-16 aircraft program for Pakistan.


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## Donatello

Any more pictures from Red Flag/ Green Flag ?


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## fatman17

PAF F-16s also have the ATLIS - LDP


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## fatman17

any difference between a 'targeting' and a 'designator' pod?


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> any difference between a 'targeting' and a 'designator' pod?



Well function is same, names differ. 

Some call it targeting pod with laser designator, while its called designator pod also. 

No difference.

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## redgriffin

Just for everyone's info, PAF has never had the LANTIRN in its inventory and thus has never operated it. The only LDPs in our current inventory are ATLIS IIs. They will be supplemented and eventually replaced by the SNIPER XR pods and that Chinese LDP.


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## Manticore

interesting series

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## fatman17

redgriffin said:


> Just for everyone's info, PAF has never had the LANTIRN in its inventory and thus has never operated it. The only LDPs in our current inventory are ATLIS IIs. They will be supplemented and eventually replaced by the SNIPER XR pods and that Chinese LDP.



pls supply evidence for your statement!


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## redgriffin

Look it up. Better yet ask someone either currently in service or recently retired from the Paf, as I never elaborate on my sources. Personal principle of mine. People who know me from the beginning of DT or the other Pakistani defence will also tell you that I've always been correct with my info.
Besides it is common logic. Lantirn became operational on Blk 40 Falcons and later on the Nato nations' MLU machines. Our Vipers are blk 15 OCUs, which did'nt have Lantirn integrated ever. Before the LANTIRN capable mlus, the only targeting pod integrated with Viper A/Bs was the day light ATLIS II on Paf F-16s. After that, the closest analogue Paf had to a tgp, was the flir on ROSE II/III Mirages. 
P.s my post may sound rude, but it is not intended to be. I'm just pretty straightforward and blunt.

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## redgriffin

I forgot to mention, unlike ATLIS, DAMOCLESE or SNIPER XR, the LANTIRN is a two pod system.


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## Jango

this is a really good piece of kit this plane and it will be a good oppurtunity to test and train the pilots


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## fatman17

redgriffin said:


> Look it up. Better yet ask someone either currently in service or recently retired from the Paf, as I never elaborate on my sources. Personal principle of mine. People who know me from the beginning of DT or the other Pakistani defence will also tell you that I've always been correct with my info.
> Besides it is common logic. Lantirn became operational on Blk 40 Falcons and later on the Nato nations' MLU machines. Our Vipers are blk 15 OCUs, which did'nt have Lantirn integrated ever. Before the LANTIRN capable mlus, the only targeting pod integrated with Viper A/Bs was the day light ATLIS II on Paf F-16s. After that, the closest analogue Paf had to a tgp, was the flir on ROSE II/III Mirages.
> P.s my post may sound rude, but it is not intended to be. I'm just pretty straightforward and blunt.



Sep 2003 
LMTAS successfully concludes flight testing of the Sniper XR Advanced Targeting Pod on F-16 block 30 and 50 aircraft


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> Sep 2003
> LMTAS successfully concludes flight testing of the Sniper XR Advanced Targeting Pod on F-16 block 30 and 50 aircraft



" The first operational F-16s to be equipped with LANTIRN were Block 40/42 models, sometimes referred to as the "Night Falcon". Due to the USAF's concept of "misionized aircraft", which was extended to individual blocks, Block 40/42 F-16CG/DGs remained the only LANTIRN-capable F-16s in the USAF inventory for a long time (except for some F-16Bs which were used in LANTIRN-tests at Edwards). "

Check F-16 Installation: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article2.html

Check this, Block 30 first started to use LANTRIN in Nov, 1998, before that only Block 40 had this capability. 

Laser-targeting pods permit precision strikes


So the LANTRIN working initially with Block 40s and above only is correct, while Sniper XR has come later on, by then it must have been made capable enough to work with Block 30s. 

And here is about the Sniper XR, which was from the start programmed to be able to work with Block 30s. 

http://www.f-16.net/news_article130.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/atp.htm

Hope it helps.


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## fatman17

*Maintainers lend expertise to Pakistan for Red Flag * 

September 17, 2010 (by MSgt. Desiree Twombly)

The 162nd Fighter Wing, known for its premier international F-16 training programs, has an advantage when it comes to the development of international partnerships. As an integral part of U.S.-Pakistan relations, the wing was a clear choice to assist the Pakistan Air Force in its Red Flag debut. 

SMSgt. Charles Neal helps Pakistan Air Force maintainers prepare an F-16 for the rigours of Red Flag on the Nellis Air Force Base flightline on July 22, 2010. A team of 162nd FW maintainers ensured Pakistan&#8217;s airmen had a successful first appearance at the advanced training exercise July 17-31. Capt. Jason Burns, 162nd aircraft maintenance officer, and Senior Master Sgt. Charles Neal, 162nd maintenance group quality assurance chief, traveled to Pakistan to assist their air force prepare for its first Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., July 17-31.

"We flew to Pakistan in early June and our tasking was to safely guide them through the deployment process. We looked at their facilities, tools and equipment and gave them an in-depth presentation on what to expect during the Red Flag deployment," said Sergeant Neal.

Red Flag is conducted on the Nevada Test and Training Range and involves U.S. and allied forces. Exercises involve a variety of interdiction, attack, air superiority, defense suppression, airlift, air refueling and reconnaissance aircraft. It sharpens aerial combat skills by providing realistic training in a combined air, ground and electronic threat environment found on the battlefield.

"It's the whole package. The Air Force provides assistance to invited countries to show how they can come together as a coalition force. They get together and practice going to war so that if they ever have to go, there is no guessing game. Everyone knows how to operate," said Captain Burns.

Coalition air forces are required to be familiar with U.S. Air Force, coalition and Red Flag rules and regulations and other standards. In addition, forces that deploy to Red Flag must perform all aircraft maintenance, being as self-sufficient as they would be in a wartime environment.

To help Pakistan take on the complexities of Red Flag, Burns and Neal brought along a full complement of 162nd maintainers that included Master Sgt. Ruben Perez, Master Sgt. John Lambert II, Maj. James Cobb, Master Sgt. Alfonso Soto, and Chief Master Sgt. Doug Pepiot.

"Some of them have never dealt with our various rules and regulations. The way they manage their military is very different from what you would expect in the Air Force. Our goal was not to change them but to inform them so they can be prepared to fit in with the coalition force during the exercise," said Sergeant Neal.

Hosted by the U.S. Air Force, Red Flag offers a chance for American Airmen and their international counterparts to engage in realistic combat scenarios that draws on both air and ground assets.

"Some of the scenarios involved missing equipment, man down or intruder on the flight line. From a maintenance perspective it was almost like an operational readiness exercise. They performed well and I'm proud to have been a part of that," said Sergeant Neal.

At the conclusion of the exercise the 162nd maintenance team assisted the PAF in their return to Pakistan. The team has a clear understanding that the international friendship developed by the experience will prove to be invaluable.

"The thing I have enjoyed most is working directly with our partners. You can correspond through e-mail on rules and regulations but until you fight together you don't know what everybody is capable of. It's exciting to see them perform well. Some will remain lifelong friends. I really enjoyed the experience," said Neal. 

Courtesy of 162nd Fighter Wing Public Affairs

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## somebozo

Self Delete - Repost


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## Jungibaaz

If not posted already....

PAF f-16s at Red Flag In Nevada!

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## owais.usmani

http://www.supercruise.nl/Articels/red flag 10-4/article_red_flag_10_4.html

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## razgriz19



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## DANGER-ZONE

September 17, 2010 (by MSgt. Desiree Twombly) - *The 162nd Fighter Wing, known for its premier international F-16 training programs, has an advantage when it comes to the development of international partnerships. As an integral part of U.S.-Pakistan relations, the wing was a clear choice to assist the Pakistan Air Force in its Red Flag debut*


Capt. Jason Burns, 162nd aircraft maintenance officer, and Senior Master Sgt. Charles Neal, 162nd maintenance group quality assurance chief, traveled to Pakistan to assist their air force prepare for its first Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., July 17-31.

"We flew to Pakistan in early June and our tasking was to safely guide them through the deployment process. We looked at their facilities, tools and equipment and gave them an in-depth presentation on what to expect during the Red Flag deployment," said Sergeant Neal.

Red Flag is conducted on the Nevada Test and Training Range and involves U.S. and allied forces. Exercises involve a variety of interdiction, attack, air superiority, defense suppression, airlift, air refueling and reconnaissance aircraft. It sharpens aerial combat skills by providing realistic training in a combined air, ground and electronic threat environment found on the battlefield.

"It's the whole package. The Air Force provides assistance to invited countries to show how they can come together as a coalition force. They get together and practice going to war so that if they ever have to go, there is no guessing game. Everyone knows how to operate," said Captain Burns.

Coalition air forces are required to be familiar with U.S. Air Force, coalition and Red Flag rules and regulations and other standards. In addition, forces that deploy to Red Flag must perform all aircraft maintenance, being as self-sufficient as they would be in a wartime environment.

To help Pakistan take on the complexities of Red Flag, Burns and Neal brought along a full complement of 162nd maintainers that included Master Sgt. Ruben Perez, Master Sgt. John Lambert II, Maj. James Cobb, Master Sgt. Alfonso Soto, and Chief Master Sgt. Doug Pepiot.

"Some of them have never dealt with our various rules and regulations. The way they manage their military is very different from what you would expect in the Air Force. Our goal was not to change them but to inform them so they can be prepared to fit in with the coalition force during the exercise," said Sergeant Neal.

Hosted by the U.S. Air Force, Red Flag offers a chance for American Airmen and their international counterparts to engage in realistic combat scenarios that draws on both air and ground assets.

"Some of the scenarios involved missing equipment, man down or intruder on the flight line. From a maintenance perspective it was almost like an operational readiness exercise. They performed well and I'm proud to have been a part of that," said Sergeant Neal.

At the conclusion of the exercise the 162nd maintenance team assisted the PAF in their return to Pakistan. The team has a clear understanding that the international friendship developed by the experience will prove to be invaluable.

"The thing I have enjoyed most is working directly with our partners. You can correspond through e-mail on rules and regulations but until you fight together you don't know what everybody is capable of. It's exciting to see them perform well. Some will remain lifelong friends. I really enjoyed the experience," said Neal.

Courtesy of 162nd Fighter Wing Public Affairs







*SMSgt. Charles Neal helps Pakistan Air Force maintainers prepare an F-16 for the rigours of Red Flag on the Nellis Air Force Base flightline on July 22, 2010. A team of 162nd FW maintainers ensured Pakistan&#8217;s airmen had a successful first appearance at the advanced training exercise July 17-31. [USAF photo] *

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## S.U.R.B.



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## owais.usmani



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## @rrows

some of the photos of PAF participating in Green Flag Exercise are placed at nellis.af.mil


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Photographer's comment*
_In two years is the 3rd time this aircraft can be seen at Lajes. The 1st on the delivery flight, the second on the way to Red Flag and now coming back home_.





*Photographer's comment*
_Returning home from the Red and Green Flags 2010!! Last time that I saw this F16B here at Lajes was on July2008 during its delivery flight to the PAK!! Now this Falcon belongs to the No. 9 Squadron 'Griffins' of the No.38 Multi Role Wing, based at Pakistan Air Force base Mushaf at Sargodha, Pakistan!!_

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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16B block 15 #90620 from 9 sqn is seen landing at Lajes Field on August 24th, 2010 during its brief stay during its return leg to Pakistan after being in the USA for Red Flag 10-4.*






*PAF F-16B block 15 #90613 from 9 sqn is seen moments after landing at Lajes Field on August 30th, 2010 after a test flight during its brief stay on its from Red Flag 10-4.*

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## Manticore

Global Aviation Resource

skippyscage photography - Nellis AFB, NV (KLSV) - Red Flag 10-4 - 19-21 July 2010

enjoy the red flag paf high def. pics


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## @rrows

danger-zone said:


> *Photographer's comment*
> _Returning home from the Red and Green Flags 2010!! Last time that I saw this F16B here at Lajes was on July2008 during its delivery flight to the PAK!! Now this Falcon belongs to the No. 9 Squadron 'Griffins' of the No.38 Multi Role Wing, based at Pakistan Air Force base Mushaf at Sargodha, Pakistan!!_



hope these birds are back in their nest by now....
nice pics


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## DANGER-ZONE

@rrows said:


> hope these birds are back in their nest by now....
> nice pics



they are already here

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## ynmian

behram said:


> I've seen a HUD vid of the 1st Viper landing at Nellis AFB, thanks to the PAF media guy(also one of the 1st Viper pilots in late 80s), who is currently in Islamabad, met him a few days back.



Is the Video of1st viper HUD available on youtube etc?


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## ynmian

air marshal said:


> Pictures courtesy: Shazib Mehmood



"Shazib Mehmood" means the the great pilot in pictures?

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## ynmian

penumbra said:


> Great pictures i must say!
> 
> The guy in the second seat (Last Pic) seems to be chilling, while plane is being refueled.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about PAF gets the KC-135 for its F-16 refueling....i mean we can't have IL-78 do all the job. Perhaps this exercise will highlight the importance of air refuelers...








2 questions:
1. who could have taken these pictures?
2. on the canopy starboard side, is that a file or chart which is lying on the panel (right side of HUD)


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## ynmian

PAFAce said:


> In order to fly the F-16 in Pakistan, you must first display tremendous skill in flying one of our other platforms, namely the Mirage III/V, F-7 or (previously) the A-5 Fantan. It is considered to be a great honor to fly the front-line fighter of the PAF. Hence, the only group of pilots that could be considered more "elite" than those flying the F-16s are the ones flying the JF-17s.
> 
> That said, it is common that the pilots who are sent to such exercises are a mix of new converts and veterans. You want the veterans there so that they may decipher the strategies and tactics of other participants in great detail while refining their own, and you want the younger pilots to be there in order to pass on that knowledge for as long as possible. Expect many of these pilots to be teaching in the Combat Commander's School in the future.



30 or 30 to 40 is still young, man, but its common to have an f16 pilot ranging from 35 to 50 years etc. (correct me if i am wrong).

you are right that for the time being jf-17 are considered to be elite pilots, BUT nothing compared to f16, and i guess with the arrival of f16 block 50/52, those pilots will be considered as more elite


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## blain2

ynmian said:


> 30 or 30 to 40 is still young, man, but its common to have an f16 pilot ranging from 35 to 50 years etc. (correct me if i am wrong).
> 
> you are right that for the time being jf-17 are considered to be elite pilots, BUT nothing compared to f16, and i guess with the arrival of f16 block 50/52, those pilots will be considered as more elite



You are right but I think elite is not just the purview of the F-16 sqns only. I think it is a given that those with the most promise and talent are sent off to the F-16 conversion but once these pilots have gained experience , many times they are sent over to other sqns to spread the knowledge around about a very capable AI radar equipped platform.

When ROSE I mirages were brought into service, F-16 pilots had to be sent back to the Mirage sqn (s) because they had the requisite experience with the AI equipped platform already and ended up helping the ROSE I equipped Sqns to become proficient on their new platform.

I think with the PAF (and with most other Air Forces), the more expensive and complicated the weapon system, the greater the need for most experienced and young pilots in the program. You don't necessarily want all of your very best in a few sqns. You want them to be sprinkled around. This is the very reason that we will have experienced F-16 pilots in the TEF (program JF-17) and the same with the initial conversion on the blk-52s. But the goal would be to bring younger pilots into these sqns so they retain the experience over a longer period of time.

Also as to the best within Pakistan, in my humble opinion, while there are excellent pilots in the F-16 sqns, the best pilots within the Pakistan Air Force are the ones associated with the CCS as instructors.

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## PAFAce

blain2 said:


> You are right but I think elite is not just the purview of the F-16 sqns only. I think it is a given that those with the most promise and talent are sent off to the F-16 conversion but once these pilots have gained experience , many times they are sent over to other sqns to spread the knowledge around about a very capable AI radar equipped platform.


Just to add, I think the most "elite" group of pilots in the PAF don't fly either the F-16 or the Mirage, but the F-7, namely the instructors of the Combat Commanders School. This school is designed primarily to pass on the experience and "spread the knowledge", as *blain2* put it, to all squadrons.

Also, I think there are plans to switch over from the F-7 to the JF-17 within two years. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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## blain2

PAFAce said:


> Just to add, I think the most "elite" group of pilots in the PAF don't fly either the F-16 or the Mirage, but the F-7, namely the instructors of the Combat Commanders School. This school is designed primarily to pass on the experience and "spread the knowledge", as *blain2* put it, to all squadrons.
> 
> Also, I think there are plans to switch over from the F-7 to the JF-17 within two years. Please correct me if I am mistaken.




The CCS currently has three types on its curriculum. These include the F-7, Mirage and the F-16 - the F-16s are borrowed from 9 and 11 sqn which are co-located with the CCS @ Mushaf when a CCS course has to be run and F-7s and Mirage ROSE I aircraft are resident at (and dedicated to) the school. In the future the JF-17 is bound to be included. The F-16s will continue to be borrowed (the F-16 course model is actually similar to the way RAF's Air Warfare Center and even RF is run given that they do not have each aircraft type on hand, rather the visiting crews (with their aircraft) are trained on employment of aircraft types when they come to the school). The same goes for CCS.

There is an extensive EW program associated with the CCS and this program will be immensely enhanced with the AEW inclusion into the course.

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## fatman17

ynmian said:


> "Shazib Mehmood" means the the great pilot in pictures?



SM just completed 1,000 hrs on the viper!


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## fatman17

i believe with enough vipers under induction, there is a possibility for a F-16 conversion squadron to be based at mianwali. in war-time it would convert to whatever role assigned to it - PAF has a 'abundance' of two-seat vipers in its inventory.

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## Safriz

ynmian said:


> 2 questions:
> 1. who could have taken these pictures?
> 2. *on the canopy starboard side, is that a file or chart which is lying on* the panel (right side of HUD)



The thing on the canopy looks like a paper inserted in a plastic bag and scotch taped on Canopy.Looks like a True Pakistani Innovation called *"Jugaar"*..
The pilot may well be using some kind of checklist for refueling operation or something else..

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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> i believe with enough vipers under induction, there is a possibility for a F-16 conversion squadron to be based at mianwali. in war-time it would convert to whatever role assigned to it - PAF has a 'abundance' of two-seat vipers in its inventory.



Very possible. I doubt 9 or 11 sqn would ever become an OCU sqn given their tradition, seniority and roles within the PAF. Some new sqn would have to take up this role.


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## ynmian

safriz said:


> The thing on the canopy looks like a paper inserted in a plastic bag and scotch taped on Canopy.Looks like a True Pakistani Innovation called *"Jugaar"*..
> The pilot may well be using some kind of checklist for refueling operation or something else..



you used the right word "Jugaar" i liked that. another alternative is that "Pakistani thook laga keh sab kaam ker latain hain"


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## blain2

safriz said:


> The thing on the canopy looks like a paper inserted in a plastic bag and scotch taped on Canopy.Looks like a True Pakistani Innovation called *"Jugaar"*..
> The pilot may well be using some kind of checklist for refueling operation or something else..



Nothing is taped as far as I can see. It sits on the side of the HUD. Another view of it, this time the file/folder is on the right front (and seems to have slid over to the front).

http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100721-N-8931W-031.jpg

As far as who took the photos is concerned, many USAF airmen and some professional aviation photographers took them. The best one that I have seen has been the following set at Global Aviation by Paul Filmer and Paul Dunn:

http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2010/rf10-4.php

Every single photo is beautiful!




> The stars of this Flag were undoubtedly the Pakistan Air Force with their F-16Bs. This is the first time they have participated in a Red Flag exercise and they bought six jets and around 100 ground support personnel with them. They flew to Nellis AFB via Lajes Field AFB in the Azores and were hosted on the stopover by the 65th Operations Support Squadron. This was the first time the Pakistan Air Force have ever used this base as a transit point. All the pilots were well trained in advance for the long transatlantic crossing that was seen as a symbolic leg for this huge undertaking.
> 
> During the first seven days two sorties with four aircraft were flown each day. Surprisingly one of the airframes did not fly at all and one other flew only one mission, so the remaining four jets were used almost exclusively, which is a testament to the reliability of the aircraft and the skill of the maintenance crews.
> 
> These particular F-16Bs are block 15 machines and were part of the final production run of 40 B models. They were delivered in the early 1980s and, after initial aircrew training at Hill AFB, UT, were delivered to Pakistan between 1983 and 1986. US embargoes later on in 1990 would mean that parts and support would dry up, but the ever-resourceful Pakistanis still managed to keep all their western equipment flying. This embargo, called the Pressler Amendment, also stopped an order of 71 newer F-16s that had been already ordered, with the completed airframes ending up in AMARC. These aircraft would eventually find their way to the US Navy in 2002 for use as aggressors at NAS Fallon with NSAWC; these were a mixture of A and B models. This embargo has since been lifted and new C/D models have now started to arrive in Pakistan.
> <edit>
> We continued our track waiting for our next customers, the Pakistan Air Force with their F-16s. About 45 minutes later the small swarm of four aircraft appeared and formed up on our port wing. Unfortunately the side windows in this aircraft have suffered the scratches from photographers that have had filters attached to their lenses, with the result being that they are nigh on impossible to shoot through as there are literally no clear patches. I had already spoken to the crew on the ground about shooting over the back of their cockpit seats through the side windows and they said this was not a problem. This was my saving grace and my pilot also asked the aircraft if they could move forward in their formation so that photos could be taken. So while the first aircraft took the boom the remaining three formated for me just as the light was becoming really soft, with the sun almost ready to set.
> 
> I went back to the boomer's position to shoot number two as he was fueling and also caught number three as he positioned for the boom. Then it was back to the cockpit to catch them in formation on the starboard wing. When they were finished our pilot asked if I wanted them to ask the Pakistanis to do anything. I replied that if they could move forward again just as they had done on the port side that would be perfect, if of course they had the time to spare before their next part of the mission. They did this in glorious sunset light, both backlit with the red sky and, after the turn, with the light shining perfectly on the airframes. Perfect!

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## Safriz

And whats the point in looking towards the camera when nobody can see their faces


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## ynmian

safriz said:


> And whats the point in looking towards the camera when nobody can see their faces



The "point" is, in this situation u wave at camera or show a sign of victroy etc. but we "desi" hardly show these gestures. but anyway these are our heroes.

this is a great picture btw.


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## truthseeker2010

ynmian said:


> 2 questions:
> 1. who could have taken these pictures?
> 2. on the canopy starboard side, is that a file or chart which is lying on the panel (right side of HUD)



The Picture might have been taken by another jet flying nearby.


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## truthseeker2010

safriz said:


> And whats the point in looking towards the camera when nobody can see their faces



Are these photos of return journey?


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## blain2

truthseeker2010 said:


> The Picture might have been taken by another jet flying nearby.



AS mentioned earlier, the high resolution photos were taken by personnel (USAF and civilian photographers) on board the KC-135 tanker which was conducting IFR for our F-16s.

---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------




truthseeker2010 said:


> Are these photos of return journey?



No these are during the Red Flag exercise itself.


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## ynmian

blain2 said:


> AS mentioned earlier, the high resolution photos were taken by personnel (USAF and civilian photographers) on board the KC-135 tanker which was conducting IFR for our F-16s.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> No these are during the Red Flag exercise itself.



i agree with u blain, i was wondering that these professional photos can't be taken by another f16 pilot. if they ever keep a camera, it will be small obviously.


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## ynmian

Its good that our old F16s flew long haul flights to US. a kind of stress tested.


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## blain2

safriz said:


> And whats the point in looking towards the camera when nobody can see their faces



It would make sense if you were flying starboard and portside of a tanker.

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## fatman17

*Combat Commanders&#8217; School*

F-7 Squadron
F-7PG Airguard

Mirage Squadron
Mirage IIIEA

F-16 Squadron*
F-16A-15 OCU Fighting Falcon

F-16B-15 OCU Fighting Falcon

*deputed as and when required from No's 9 and 11 Sqdn


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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## owais.usmani



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## fatman17

owais.usmani said:


>



*Scorching Red Flag*

The latest Red Flag Exercise at Nellis AFB was a classic, notable for some very rare participants. Paul Filmer braved the searing desert to witness the action.

Combat Aircraft Monthly  October 2010.


Red Flag 10-4 took place at Nellis AFB, Neveda, from July 19-30 and included for the first time, the Pakistan AF with a contingent of F-16Bs. In fact, this was the very first time that the Pakistan AF has been involved in any exercise in the US. The aircraft present at Red Flag were all from No.9 Squadron Griffins based at PAF Mushaf in the small city of Sargodha. 

The Pakistani contingent flew to Nellis AFB via Lejas Field in the Azores, where the USAF 65th Operations Support Squadron hosted them during the stopover. All the pilots were well trained in advance for the long trans-Atlantic crossing. Six aircraft were brought to Nellis and during the first seven days, two sorties with four aircraft were flown each day. Surprisingly one of the airframes did not fly at all and one other flew just one mission, so the remaining four jets were used almost exclusively --- a testament to the reliability of the aircraft despite their age. Along with the aircraft, around 100 support personnel travelled from Pakistan to Nellis, staying on after Red Flag to participate in Green Flag.

The Pakistan AF Vipers were two-seat Block 15 machines and were part of the final production run of 40 F-16Bs. They were handed over in the early 1980s and after initial aircrew training at Hill AFB, Utah, were delivered to Pakistan between 1983 and 1986. US embargoes placed in 1990 would mean that parts and support would dry up, but the ever resourceful Pakistan AF kept its Western equipment flying. However, the embargo, the Pressler Amendment also cancelled 71 newer F-16s that had already been ordered, and the completed airframes ended up in AMARC (Aircraft Maintenance and Regeneration Center), before being distributed to the USAF and US Navy. This embargo has since been lifted and new Block 52 F-16C/D models have started to arrive along with upgrades for original examples. During 2007-08, the 14 examples distributed to the USAF have since been handed over to the Pakistan AF. Similarly the 14 examples distributed to the US Navy remain in service with the navy.

Pakistani Vipers on Red Flag  Gp-Capt. Javed Saeed, Red Flag Detachment Commander.

_What does participation in the Red Flag mean to the Pakistan AF?_
The Pakistan AF has been a regular participant in various inland as well as foreign multi-national exercises. Red Flag, however, has been unique in comparison in many regards. The deployment from home base to Nellis in itself was a unique experience considering the distance and the consequential use of aerial refueling. The Pakistan AF stands on the verge of modernization for which the Red Flag offers a credible training environment for the benefit of its participants.

_Back in 2006, fighters from the USAFs 77th Fighter Squadron were deployed to Pakistan for Falcon Talon. Did any of the Pakistan AF members participate in that? What does this exercise mean in relation?_ 

Coincidently, all of the present aircrew of the Pakistan AF contingent did not participant in Falcon Talon 2006. However, was not flown on such a large scale as far as the number of aircraft as well as the variety of roles they were employed in is concerned. The use of force-multipliers as well as a comprehensive simulation of enemy IADS (Integrated air-defense systems) is another aspect that Falcon Talon lacked in comparison to Red Flag.

_How has this exercise helped so far?_

Red Flag has given the Pakistan AF the opportunity to deploy its assets and personnel halfway around the world. It has also provided a contemporary air combat training environment for our less experienced aircrews.

_What effects does this exercise have on US-Pakistan relations, both military and non-military?_

Red Flag gave both nations an opportunity to understand each other better culturally and professionally. Both aspects are crucial for forces and nations dependent on each other when working for common objectives. For the Pakistan AF, to participate in Red Flag required training and proficiency on air-to-air refueling operations. With USAF support, the Pakistan AF was able to gain that proficiency prior to Red Flag deployment.

_What does it mean for the contingent to have crossed the Atlantic?_

Crossing the Atlantic has a certain symbolic importance attached to it. Our maintenance did a wonderful job making sure our aircraft were in good shape throughout the deployment, especially for the transatlantic leg. The pilots were trained well and prepared even better to make them comfortable crossing the vastness of the Atlantic.

_How have US-Pakistan relations developed since Falcon Talon 2006?_

Falcon Talon was the first joint exercise between the Pakistan AF and USAF in a long while. The enhanced mutual respect and appreciation for one another led to a second Falcon Talon in 2009 and now to Red Flag.

_How has it been to work with the other countries here?_

Every nation and its service has its individuality as a result of the subtle differences in their way of operations. The opportunity to interact and operate in a joint environment allows for collective improvement by learning from the strengths of others.

_Have any members of the Pakistan contingent trained in the US before?_

From 2003 onwards a number of Pakistan AF pilots have gone through IFF (Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals) training here in the US. Recently eight of our pilots received training for the Block 52 F-16s with the Tucson ANG. Red Flag however, is the first major exercise in which the Pakistan AF has had the opportunity to participate in the US.

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## owais.usmani



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## sanasahil

Yes i checked that and not doubt we can be proud of its air force expertise and zeal to go ahead, they have made their appearance in drone too...


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## For Ever Pakistan

truthseeker2010 said:


> Are these photos of return journey?


 
i was reading a quote from a tanker refuelr and he siad at the time he was gasing up F-14 when it was all done he would get he s camcorder and the F-14 driver would come in to view and bank hard right/left and hit full afterburner as a thank you


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## For Ever Pakistan

ynmian said:


> i agree with u blain, i was wondering that these professional photos can't be taken by another f16 pilot. if they ever keep a camera, it will be small obviously.


 
in the cold war the F-14 crew all had a small camra (the rio) when thay saw a new plane thay would take a pic and would be forwarded to the pentegon to be i.d so may be the same for the pakistani F-16 crew


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## SQ8

there is nothing new about the pakistani F-16..
The Americans know everything there is to know about it.


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## Silk

Santro said:


> there is nothing new about the pakistani F-16..
> The Americans know everything there is to know about it.


 
But they would love to know how and where we use it. Certainly how it performs against out other fighters.


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## SQ8

I wouldnt bet on that..
The initial crop of F-16 pilots were trained in the US...and those men laid down the foundation for F-16 training..
undoubtedly.. our tactics regarding the viper are different.. but not so much that when the PAF went into red flag.. it integrated better than the IAF into that environment.. (not to flame..and not to belittle the IAF at all..lets some fanboy decides to troll here)..systems were compatible.. and so were most of the tactics.
Our team playing and flight tactics are different from those employed by the USAF.. but not so that we would feel out of place.. 
or would be vary of giving crucial secrets away.
The F-16 is an American plane.. operated by the USAF much more than we have.. they know that aircraft inside out.. its limitations and its capabilities better than we do.. every thing inside our F-16's is made and installed by the Americans. 
Whats left to learn then would be our tactics in WVR.. which the Americans already saw when the first crop of F-16 pilots from the PAF trained there..
Red flag was a complete learning opportunity for us.. 
We found out how to fight in a large force mix in a high threat environment.. against numerically superior forces.. something we expect to face.

If anything.. people who would be vary of exposing themselves at red flag would be those flying non-American aircraft.. 
A lot was learned about the MKI by the Americans.. and by the french as well.. how it flies..what to expect..
not to fight the Indians.. but to fight their perceived possible future threat.. the Chinese.
In our case.. they can peek in the F-16's all they want.. they built em and delivered them anyway..
All they could learn would be any special tactics we might have developed in combat.. which are different from SOP in known fighter tactics..
something we would probably avoid showing off..

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## Windjammer

Just received these images from a contact. 
















---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

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## Manticore

mods, it would be great, if 1 complete sticky on all exercises is made...

uae exercise

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## Donatello

So what were the results of Red Flag? Like how did PAF rank up?


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## krash

penumbra said:


> So what were the results of Red Flag? Like how did PAF rank up?


 
That is something which is kept confidential. We all know that the PAF works this way. We dont come back shouting that we topped in everything only to be embarrassed later by a video released on youtube. Even the achievements worthy of boasting are kept a secret.

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Just received these images from a contact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------




Joint Helmet Mounted Sight?


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## krash

mafiya said:


> Joint Helmet Mounted Sight?


 
Not these ones.


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## Fieldmarshal

mafiya said:


> Joint Helmet Mounted Sight?


 
These r block 15 not block 52


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## Manticore




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## Pak47

Many people have seen the shorter version posted by airboyd.. But here's the full version. 

This shows the pilots much more while they're on the ground. Getting off the main plane. Showing the pilots interacting with ground control etc. Enjoy! 

Pakistani Red Flag Footage July 2010 - YouTube


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## usmanhomes

ice_man said:


> check out the 4 raptors parked in the shade!




.............. yeah hope next time PAF will fly with the RAPTORS for any war drills
...........


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