# Turkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8



## aimarraul

PressTV - Sino-Turkish military drill worries West
US Army spokeswoman Lieutenant Colonel Tamara Parker said on Friday that the Chinese and Turkish air forces carried out a joint exercise from September 20 through October 4 at the Konya air base in Turkey's central Anatolia region, Reuters reported.

It is the first such military exercise involving Beijing and a NATO member country. Parker said that Turkey assured the US beforehand that it would take the "utmost care" to protect sensitive US and NATO technologies.

*"To the best of our knowledge, US-made F-16s were not involved in the exercise," Parker added.
According to the report, the Turkish air force flew F-4 Phantom fighters, used by the US during the Vietnam War, and China flew Russian-built SU-27s.

Experts described the exercise as a sign of China's growing influence beyond its borders and Beijing's capability to operate as far away as the Middle East.*


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## below_freezing

... where did it say our Su-27 got beat?


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## aimarraul

below_freezing said:


> ... where did it say our Su-27 got beat?



ÖÐ¹úSu-27¸°ÍÁ¶úÆäÓëF-16ÁªºÏ¾üÑÝ---¸÷ÖÖÏûÏ¢¼¯ÖÐÌÖÂÛÌû£¬Îð¿ªÐÂÌù[Page:12] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base


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## Jungibaaz

no way....i can't read it someone plz translate


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## below_freezing

&#26377;&#27809;&#26377;&#26356;&#21487;&#38752;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#26469;&#28304;&#65311;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#30693;&#36947;&#21681;&#20891;&#36855;&#26377;&#26102;&#20505;&#21916;&#27426;&#38543;&#21475;&#20081;&#35828;&#65292;&#35980;&#20284;&#26159;&#19968;&#20010;&#20154;&#22312;&#31532;11&#39029;&#38543;&#20415;&#35828;&#20102;&#19968;&#21477;&#8220;&#26127;&#27515;&#65292;8:0&#21834;&#65292;&#21643;&#20250;&#36825;&#20040;&#24748;&#27530;&#30340;&#27604;&#20998;&#12290;&#25462;&#22320;&#8230;&#8230;&#8220;

&#21453;&#27491;&#25105;&#35273;&#24471;&#36825;&#19981;&#38752;&#26222;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;

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## aimarraul

Jungibaaz said:


> no way....i can't read it someone plz translate



Yes way...... someone also divulged that PLAAF and PAF would conduct joint exercise very soon....


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## Carnivore

Is it proper to post a new thread for these rumors without any formal confirmation?


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## aimarraul

below_freezing said:


> &#26377;&#27809;&#26377;&#26356;&#21487;&#38752;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#26469;&#28304;&#65311;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#30693;&#36947;&#21681;&#20891;&#36855;&#26377;&#26102;&#20505;&#21916;&#27426;&#38543;&#21475;&#20081;&#35828;&#65292;&#35980;&#20284;&#26159;&#19968;&#20010;&#20154;&#22312;&#31532;11&#39029;&#38543;&#20415;&#35828;&#20102;&#19968;&#21477;&#26127;&#27515;&#65292;8:0&#21834;&#65292;&#21643;&#20250;&#36825;&#20040;&#24748;&#27530;&#30340;&#27604;&#20998;&#12290;&#25462;&#22320;
> 
> &#21453;&#27491;&#25105;&#35273;&#24471;&#36825;&#19981;&#38752;&#26222;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;



&#26242;&#26102;&#19981;&#30830;&#23450;&#26159;F16&#36824;&#26159;F4&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#32943;&#23450;&#26159;&#36755;&#20102;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#26159;F16&#23601;&#21512;&#24773;&#21512;&#29702;&#20102;&#65292;&#27611;&#23376;&#26089;&#26399;&#30340;SU27&#30340;&#33322;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#30830;&#26159;&#36807;&#20110;&#32769;&#26087;&#65292;&#25152;&#20197;&#25165;&#20250;&#34987;J10&#29190;&#33756;

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## maxx

That's nice to hear (not)...really is this credible at all? What were the rules?


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## Carnivore

So there are two versions of rumor. 
Su-27 vs F-16D 0:8? (I think this is more credible )
Su-27 vs F-4 0:8? 
Maybe we should send our ultimate weapon J-8ZZ next time


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## below_freezing

aimarraul said:


> &#26242;&#26102;&#19981;&#30830;&#23450;&#26159;F16&#36824;&#26159;F4&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#32943;&#23450;&#26159;&#36755;&#20102;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#26159;F16&#23601;&#21512;&#24773;&#21512;&#29702;&#20102;&#65292;&#27611;&#23376;&#26089;&#26399;&#30340;SU27&#30340;&#33322;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#30830;&#26159;&#36807;&#20110;&#32769;&#26087;&#65292;&#25152;&#20197;&#25165;&#20250;&#34987;J10&#29190;&#33756;



&#25105;&#36824;&#27809;&#26377;&#30475;&#21040;&#20219;&#20309;&#21487;&#38752;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#35828;&#25105;&#20204;&#36755;&#20102;&#12290;&#20182;&#20204;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#26469;&#28304;&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#65311;

&#24182;&#19988;&#65292;&#22312;80&#24180;&#20195;&#26032;&#25163;&#39550;&#39542;&#26089;&#26399;&#30340;F-15&#37117;&#21487;&#20197;&#36731;&#32780;&#26131;&#20030;&#22320;&#24178;&#25481;&#32769;&#25163;&#39550;&#39542;&#30340;F-4&#65292;&#29616;&#22312;&#30340;Su-27&#37117;&#19981;&#22914;&#31532;&#19968;&#25209;F-15&#21527;&#65311;&#65281;

&#25152;&#20197;&#24456;&#22810;&#20154;&#20250;&#21548;&#39118;&#23601;&#26159;&#38632;,&#21518;&#26469;&#21457;&#29616;&#24456;&#22810;&#28040;&#24687;&#26159;&#20986;&#21475;&#36716;&#20869;&#38144;,&#29616;&#22312;&#21482;&#33021;&#26126;&#30830;&#30340;&#26159;&#20013;&#22269;&#27966;27&#20986;&#21435;&#20102;...
&#24456;&#22810;&#20551;&#28040;&#24687;,&#24448;&#24448;&#26159;&#22312;&#30495;&#30340;&#32032;&#26448;&#19978;&#21152;&#24037;&#30340;...

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## below_freezing

Carnivore said:


> So there are two versions of rumor.
> Su-27 vs F-16D 0:8? (I think this is more credible )
> Su-27 vs F-4 0:8?
> Maybe we should send our ultimate weapon J-8ZZ next time



more like:

we lost.
then: we lost 0:8 (never mind that we had air exercises with RUSSIA before)
then: we not only lost, but we lost to F-4s 0:8
then: we not only lost, and lost to F-4's 0:8, our pilots got dizzy after 2 spins

next version: we not only lost to F-4s 0:8 and our pilots got dizzy, they got so scared they &#23615;&#35044;&#23376;&#20102;&#12290;

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## Capt.Popeye

aimarraul said:


> PressTV - Sino-Turkish military drill worries West
> US Army spokeswoman Lieutenant Colonel Tamara Parker said on Friday that the Chinese and Turkish air forces carried out a joint exercise from September 20 through October 4 at the Konya air base in Turkey's central Anatolia region, Reuters reported.
> 
> It is the first such military exercise involving Beijing and a NATO member country. Parker said that Turkey assured the US beforehand that it would take the "utmost care" to protect sensitive US and NATO technologies.
> 
> *"To the best of our knowledge, US-made F-16s were not involved in the exercise," Parker added.
> According to the report, the Turkish air force flew F-4 Phantom fighters, used by the US during the Vietnam War, and China flew Russian-built SU-27s.
> 
> Experts described the exercise as a sign of China's growing influence beyond its borders and Beijing's capability to operate as far away as the Middle East.*


*


With due respect, the title of the thread is ****-eyed and needs to be corrected. Where on earth, has it been said that "Turkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8" ????
Or is this some blurb advertising some newly released "fiction paperback".*

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## WillBeBack

do people who create this rumor expecting anyone to believe it?
it seems some people/country is really unhappy about Chinese force to get more practice opportunity.

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## below_freezing

WillBeBack said:


> do people who create this rumor expecting anyone to believe it?
> it seems some people/country is really unhappy about Chinese force to get more practice opportunity.



i actually read all 21 pages of that thread. apparently the person who started it is named "yankee" and the one saying it's "100&#37; true" is from taiwan.

lets put it this way, we practiced with Russia, Pakistan before and never have we lost badly. Is Turkey superior to Russia and pakistan?

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## siegecrossbow

If the news is true the PLAAF pilots should go hang themselves. How the hell could they lose to 3rd gen fighters flying 4th gens?

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## challenger

Self deleted.


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## redwolf89179

&#22269;&#20869;&#37117;&#27809;&#26377;&#24471;&#21040;&#20219;&#20309;&#26435;&#23041;&#32769;&#22823;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#36879;&#38706;&#65292;&#20026;&#20160;&#20040;&#23601;&#36843;&#19981;&#21450;&#24453;&#30340;&#25226;&#27809;&#26377;&#24471;&#21040;&#35777;&#23454;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#21040;&#22788;&#20256;&#36882;&#65311;PU&#36824;&#27809;&#26377;&#35828;&#35805;&#21602;&#65292;&#29468;&#20160;&#20040;&#29468;&#65292;&#19978;CD&#26368;&#36215;&#30721;&#35201;&#30693;&#36947;&#21548;&#35841;&#30340;&#35805;&#12290;&#36879;&#38706;&#28040;&#24687;&#30340;&#28508;&#27700;&#36135;&#65292;&#20182;&#26377;&#20160;&#20040;&#36164;&#26684;&#35753;&#20320;&#29468;&#12290;

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## file12345

Can anybody confirm that is this true.Flankers losing to Phantoms.

Hmm Flankers were more for F-15s and 16s.

Hard to believe.


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## siegecrossbow

I looked on both Chinese and English websites and so far I can't confirm the news. It is highly likely that they were fabricated by "wuchi jingying" and Pan Green Taiwanese. 

However it appears that only F-4s were used by the Turkish side. Even if the PLAAF won it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. Su-27 achieving 8-0 against F-4s? That just doesn't have the same ring to it.

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## Hasbara Buster

From now on, we will probably see many crazy news articles trying to create animosity between Turkey and China. Apparently, some people are not very happy about this new China-Turkey strategic partnership.

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## Carnivore

Turkish forumers we need help here
Can somebody in Turkey or has connection there give some detailed information. It seems some Chinese boys are shocked by these rumors and nearly crying.


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## gowthamraj

ziruru said:


> what a good news to india



 it bad news for India, we are the largest user of Sukhoi's in south India


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## Jungibaaz

ziruru said:


> what a good news to india



They should be worried! if an f-4 beat a sukhoi (similar to their sukhois)
then what are they gonna do against f-16s and j-10s and etc

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## challenger

Carnivore said:


> Turkish forumers we need help here
> Can somebody in Turkey or has connection there give some detailed information. It seems some Chinese boys are shocked by these rumors and nearly crying.



First of all, I don't know whether the news is true or false. 

But as *aimarrul* posted it, I actually believe in what he posts because his reports often appear authentic if verified. 

Turkish air force is unlikely to publish any report, as the drill was supposed to be kept secret, plus, such publishing of news may offend PLAAF.

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## siegecrossbow

Carnivore said:


> Turkish forumers we need help here
> Can somebody in Turkey or has connection there give some detailed information. It seems some Chinese boys are shocked by these rumors and nearly crying.



Dude this is the equivalent of an F-15 getting beaten by a J-8! Of course we'd be upset. Well if the news is true (Turkey won the engagement with just F-4s) then kudos to the great training of the Turkish Air Force. 

Regardless of whether the news is true or not I think China should participate in more events like the Anatolian Eagles. This is a good opportunity for the Chinese Air Force to come out and practice. You can't have good pilots unless you let them go out to play.

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## file12345

challenger said:


> First of all, I don't know whether the news is true or false.
> 
> But as *aimarrul* posted it, I actually believe in what he posts because his reports often appear authentic if verified.
> 
> Turkish air force is unlikely to publish any report, as the drill was supposed to be kept secret, plus, such publishing of news may offend PLAAF.



Does that mean it is true ?


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## challenger

file12345 said:


> Does that mean it is true ?



We have to assume so. But we don't have confirmation. 

Out of nothing, nothing comes. If there is a news, even a rumor, something must have happened, but again, we can't know what exactly happened.


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## Capt.Popeye

gowthamraj said:


> it bad news for India, we are the largest user of Sukhoi's in south India




Do the Sukhois (or any plane) fly on auto-pilot or by remote control?
The news means nothing- not to a plane at least. It only throws up some other questions.

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## challenger

Capt.Popeye said:


> Do the Sukhois (or any plane) fly on auto-pilot or by remote control?
> The news means nothing- not to a plane at least. *It only throws up some other questions.*



Such as? Just asking...


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## challenger

ziruru said:


> Such as the quality of pilot
> that what he means
> so obvious



He could have completed his statement. That doesn't offend anyone. Only the statement implies that PLAAF needs to rethink its strategy as far as pilot training program and air craft models are concerned.


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## justanobserver

Hmm
I've heard of America doing similar stuff, losing deliberately to another country just to massage their egos and encourage them to buy more arms (i.e Saudi Arabia)

But China doing this , especially with all your 'face politics' ?

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## Chinapak

F4 Phantom can easily beat a SU 27 or even SU30MKI if we use some common sense. Even the Harrier can do it. How? Simply by fitting the F4 or Harrier with intelligent weapons, BVR and phased array radar. SU 27 and 30 might be superior in manoevrability, range and speed but the F4 and Harrier with BVR, superior radar and intelligent long range air to air missiles, they can easily shot down the latest sukhoi very far away that is beyound visual range and without need to engage in any dogfight given that any dogfight would be fatal to the Harrier or F4. However the sukhoi must not be fitted with Western intelligent weapons or similar BVR. 
During the falklands the harrier had shot down-thanks to the US sidewinder-a few Mirage which were superior in speed and manoevrability. We must not forget that the F4 phantom had been the frontline jet fighters of the UK, Israel, Japan till late 80's.

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## S.U.R.B.

What are the parameters and conditions of this drill?

Quoting someone:



> "'You fight like you train' is a saying from Top Gun school," Mr. Timperlake said. "The Turkish air force helping the PLAAF to see NATO combat tactics and training up close and personal is a very bad idea. It is deadly serious stuff."




Inside the Ring - Washington Times

If it did happened this time,the mistakes can be rectified in future.

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## challenger

S.U.R.B. said:


> What are the parameters and conditions of this drill?
> 
> Quoting someone:
> 
> Inside the Ring - Washington Times
> 
> If it did happened this time,the mistakes can be rectified in future.



Chinese members need not get unnecessarily upset, disappointed. 

First of all, congrats to Turkish Air force for their good performance. 

We should be thankful to Turkey for letting an SCO member know about NATO capabilities. I wish, if I could see Turkey as an SCO member.


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## siegecrossbow

The key thing right now is what the Chinese Air force could do to get the pilot training up to standards. The defeat, if true, is a major wake up call.


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## Super Falcon

not in hell F 4 can beat SU 27 reason it has poor manuverability and not good air to air war plane how it can


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## below_freezing

siegecrossbow said:


> The key thing right now is what the Chinese Air force could do to get the pilot training up to standards. The defeat, if true, is a major wake up call.



do we know if we even lost? it is technically illegal and if it was true the censors would have gotten to it already.

also, the US would have been all over the news by now if true.

finally, lets be honest: this is like a WW2 propeller plane beating a Mig-21.

again, we have had war games with Russia and pakistan, is Turkey so significantly superior to Russia and Pakistan that it not only can beat us, but beat us 0:8?

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## IBRIS

cannot find anything authentic stating Su-27 lost. 

Did PLAAF brought it's AWACS in the drill.?
Were the TAF using it's AWACS in the drill.?

No country would ever bring it's best systems to a drill where all there secrets could be exploited by opposing host. For example, like what India did with it's Sukhoi's in Red Flags.

Please trolls keep out and troll else where in some funny and stupid thread.


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## chengdusudise

if it is su-27sk vs F16 block52,then 0:8 is logical,but F-4? seems a little unbelievable

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## SEAL

We don't know how true this is maybe its 0:8 against Mig-29?
but If the news is true than its worrying and truth is PLAAF have no real experience of this kind of war games obviously its hard to beat Turkish Top guns.I am sure Chinese learnt a lot from this exercise. 

From Pakistan point of view if F4 can beat SU-27 than JF-17 vs SU-30MKI.


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## prototype

wow the most kiddish news i ever heard,so turkey brought some F-4 parked in the Smithsonian museum and beat down Chinese Su-27 8:0

Next time they will bring some F-16 and the reports which follow next will that entire PLAAF evaporated

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## CardSharp

below_freezing said:


> more like:
> 
> we lost.
> then: we lost 0:8 (never mind that we had air exercises with RUSSIA before)
> then: we not only lost, but we lost to F-4s 0:8
> then: we not only lost, and lost to F-4's 0:8, our pilots got dizzy after 2 spins
> 
> next version: we not only lost to F-4s 0:8 and our pilots got dizzy, they got so scared they &#23615;&#35044;&#23376;&#20102;&#12290;



An army that is afraid to make mistakes doesn't innovate. If there is one thing that I admire most about the PLA is that it isn't afraid to make mistakes. Better to learn lessons in peace than in war.

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## CardSharp

alex mercer said:


> wow the most kiddish news i ever heard,so turkey brought some F-4 parked in the Smithsonian museum and beat down Chinese Su-27 8:0
> 
> Next time they will bring some F-16 and the reports which follow next will that entire PLAAF evaporated



Yeah, we are not in habit of being afraid to look bad in order to progress. What is deadly for a countries defence are static institutions.


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## below_freezing

CardSharp said:


> An army that is afraid to make mistakes doesn't innovate. If there is one thing that I admire most about the PLA is that it isn't afraid to make mistakes. Better to learn lessons in peace than in war.



i am questioning the validity of this news though.

We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.

Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.

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## no_name

Were past exercise result with russia and pakistan published?

It could be a fake news, or the score the other way round.


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## siegecrossbow

below_freezing said:


> i am questioning the validity of this news though.
> 
> We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.
> 
> Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.



Another thing that is irksome is that we don't know the circumstance of the fight. If it is a dogfight then the PLAAF pilots must be morons if they lost. The F-4 was designed when the USAF still believed that future air battles will be dictated by long range missiles and manueverability really wasn't its game. Vietnamese and Chinese pilots have downed F-4s with MIG-19s in gun range before. If it is a BVR fight and the F-4s had AWAC support then it is possible for them to gain an upper hand.

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## no_name

And because they can't fire real missiles it could be that a kill is counted as soon as radar gets a lock on. So basically just a comparison of radar range and electronics and ECM exercise.

And if they locked on one plane there is no reason why they can't do the same to the other seven.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

Does any one know if during the exercise Nato configured datalinks and space based assets were used by the Turkish side.....and the PLAAF forced to depend on Turkish controllers and a datalink non - compatible with NATO systems ( i.e the same case that happened with the Indian Sukhois in Red Flag ) ......

a 0: 8 ratio in favour of F4's against Sukhois is unbelievable ........not even novice Chinese Sukhoi pilots can fare so badly against F4' s in one on one engagements......one of the most bizarre bits of defense news ever to come out......


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## below_freezing

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Does any one know if during the exercise Nato configured datalinks and space based assets were used by the Turkish side.....and the PLAAF forced to depend on Turkish controllers and a datalink non - compatible with NATO systems ( i.e the same case that happened with the Indian Sukhois in Red Flag ) ......
> 
> a 0: 8 ratio in favour of F4's against Sukhois is unbelievable ........not even novice Chinese Sukhoi pilots can fare so badly against F4' s in one on one engagements......one of the most bizarre bits of defense news ever to come out......



someone did a computer simulation in a chinese forum. the F-4 lost every time even with 2 BVR missiles while the Su-27 had nothing but fuel (downed with the gun).

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## Urbanized Greyhound

below_freezing said:


> i am questioning the validity of this news though.
> 
> We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.
> 
> Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.



Bro....take it from the IAF personnel....Pakistani pilots in terms of *training* are head and heels above any middle eastern pilots ( including Israeli ones )........if your air force exercised and trained with the PAF and were praised by them .....rest assured they are competitive.....perhaps the PLAAF shall issue a clarification and analyze the reason what went wrong......by the face of it ...cant be the capability of Chinese pilots by any means.....

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## below_freezing

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Bro....take it from the IAF personnel....Pakistani pilots in terms of *training* are head and heels above any middle eastern pilots ( including Israeli ones )........if your air force exercised and trained with the PAF and were praised by them .....rest assured they are competitive.....perhaps the PLAAF shall issue a clarification and analyze the reason what went wrong......by the face of it ...cant be the capability of Chinese pilots by any means.....



yes i'm amazed, i don't think pilots comparable in skill to elite IAF ones could fail so badly; we sent our 2nd Air Division troops, the best of the best. but remember this is news made up by a netizen on page 12 of a defense forum. i doubt it even needs to be corrected; if it was true the censors would have taken it down right away, and another member confirmed that it is actually illegal to spread information about closed military activities online.


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## Urbanized Greyhound

below_freezing said:


> someone did a computer simulation in a chinese forum.* the F-4 lost every time even with 2 BVR missiles* while the Su-27 had nothing but fuel (downed with the gun).



Bro, that is understandable....cause as I read the air frame of sukhoi 27 is more or less the same as the sukhoi series upto Su 35 ( capable of extreme maneuverability.....moves like Pugachevs Cobra, Herbst maneuver etc...)...as I recall the Su can evade BVR missiles fired provided its radar detects the aircraft within a certain range.....in case of a Gun kill as in a dogfight ....F-4s are dead meat.....

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## ptldM3

Results of exercises rarely make it to the public, actual kill ratio's even more so. It would be interesting to know the circumstances of the exercise, was data link involved? Were both sides fed from one primary awacs platform or did each side use their own? What was the experience level? What was the stand off range? Was either side outnumbered? Was there any restrictions placed on either side? And what was the avionics suits on both platforms, was one outdated?

If we assume the news to be authentic, it should be noted that Turkey is apart of NATO, so they will log more flight hours. From what I understand Chinese pilots do not receive the most flight hours; one program stated that even Chinese J-10 pilots which are considered the best of the Chinese Air Force only log a little over 100 hours annually, 140 if memory serves me correct. With that said, I do not know the skill level or experience of either side that was involved. However, I do believe that the Turkish pilots were the more experienced bunch.

It should also be noted that German pilots flying downgraded Mig-29's performed well against F-16's and F-18's, so pilot skill plays a crucial roll. Similarly, Russian Air Force Mig-29's and Mig-23's faced off regularly and the more experienced Mig-23 pilots scored kills against Mig-29's despite the fact that the Mig-29 was by far more advanced platform and in BVR it outperformed the Mig-23 in every aspect, also the the Mig-23 and F-4 are similar in performance.

If reports are true I believe that the Chinese Air Force needs to improve annual flight time as well as tactics.

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## below_freezing

the story's bullshit; i read everything and the story changes every few pages. they can't even keep their own story straight, i'm not buying.

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## conworldus

no need to read too much into this. The mission is find out of NATO tactics, not to win. The Su-27 sent were probably the oldest patch, and with every conceivable advanced equipment disabled. The Turkish F-4 would have all the ground and space satellite support, while the Su-27 flies completely blind with no radar. Then, the F-4 will win.


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## topjumper

below_freezing said:


> the story's bullshit; i read everything and the story changes every few pages. they can't even keep their own story straight, i'm not buying.



I'm totally with you, I can't believe there are over 4 pages of messages here all speculating on another piece of message left by someone on a different internet forum (which has HUNDREDS of trash/YY messages posted every HOUR) without any source, the guy who did it probably suffers from attention deficit disorder and wanted to fan up some rumors, it looks like his mission is accomplished. Common sense goes a long way sometimes, I'm going to stop wasting my time on this any longer and go have a

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i don't believe it


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## CardSharp

below_freezing said:


> *i am questioning the validity of this news though.
> *
> We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.
> 
> Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.



Oh me too. I couldn't care less what "score" China achieved, but I thought it, a good opportunity to highlight the difference between the PLA and certain other armies who are afraid to innovate and grow.

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## chengdusudise

according to latest news;
1.we lost, su-27 vs F-4,
2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 in BVR fight and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.
5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF to make navy "lost face"


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## CardSharp

siegecrossbow said:


> Another thing that is irksome is that we don't know the circumstance of the fight. If it is a dogfight then the PLAAF pilots must be morons if they lost. The F-4 was designed when the USAF still believed that future air battles will be dictated by long range missiles and manueverability really wasn't its game. Vietnamese and Chinese pilots have downed F-4s with MIG-19s in gun range before. If it is a BVR fight and the F-4s had AWAC support then it is possible for them to gain an upper hand.



Really a headline like this means... F' all. 

Wars are not won by Rambo with a M60 or Tom Cruise in a F-14 but by integrated air command doctrine combined with pilot training. 

If this news mean anything at all, it just means that China has a ways to go in terms of pilot training, something that everyone's known since the 1950's.

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## below_freezing

chengdusudise said:


> according to latest news;
> 1.we lost, su-27 vs F-4,
> 2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
> 3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
> 4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.



So you are saying: we lost because we were blind, outnumbered, had newbies (contradicting the first statement that said the pilots were from K2S) and that it was navy.

Why does the story change then? From 1 contradiction to another?

Our pilot training program isn't that terrible, at least not as terrible to lose with elite pilots in Su-27s to F-4s. We've trained pakistani pilots and they've trained us, and Pakistani pilots outgunned Israelis. Also exercised with Russia. We've also made a US plane shoot another down without firing a shot during the Vietnam War. Not even mentioning Korea.


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## chengdusudise

below_freezing said:


> So you are saying: we lost because we were blind, outnumbered, had newbies (contradicting the first statement that said the pilots were from K2S) and that it was navy.
> 
> Why does the story change then? From 1 contradiction to another?
> 
> Our pilot training program isn't that terrible, at least not as terrible to lose with elite pilots in Su-27s to F-4s. We've trained pakistani pilots and they've trained us, and Pakistani pilots outgunned Israelis. Also exercised with Russia. We've also made a US plane shoot another down without firing a shot during the Vietnam War. Not even mentioning Korea.



5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF 
the PLA navy pilots are far inferior to PLA AF pilots, because in china, all aviation flight university are controlled by PLA AF, PLAAF choose the first rate graduats to fly fighter, the second rate graduats to fly bomber,such as H-6,. and kick the third rate graduats to PLA Navy.
Navy is angry with airforce but has no other choice. now Navy want to bulid themselve's aviation flight university


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## Jigs

I can see this happening if the F-4s are 2020 terminators those have Israeli made Elta radars in them and they have a 150+km detection and tracking range. They can hold their own against most 4th gen platforms but they are not geared for dog fighting. 


Certainly this article popping up in questionable. Turkey rarely releases anything on how the Anatolian Eagle went so this could be fake. 

Is this the first time Chinese pilots went against NATO standard pilots ? It also depends on experience too. We have a number of pilots that have clocked 3k+ on F-4s.

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## Luo

Practise my English again.
Chinese Su-27s got terrible beats in Turky, lost face and reputation. This news has been widespread in China's main millitary forums since yesterday. 
As a veteran and millitary technology fan. I think it's a good lesson for those who take vicotory for granted when they got weapons of first class. The weapon is not for showing off and exhibition, yet carfully planned training and systemic integratation are most needed. Expensing money is very easy but the only consequence could not be very embarassed. 

Of course, I hope it only a rumor, which was made intentionally.

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## Jigs

Might i also add if this is classic AE then it would be Blues with AWACS support attacking the Reds who would have SAM support.


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## chengdusudise

Jigs said:


> I can see this happening if the F-4s are 2020 terminators those have Israeli made Elta radars in them and they have a 150+km detection and tracking range. They can hold their own against most 4th gen platforms but they are not geared for dog fighting.
> 
> 
> Certainly this article popping up in questionable. Turkey rarely releases anything on how the Anatolian Eagle went so this could be fake.
> 
> Is this the first time Chinese pilots went against NATO standard pilots ? It also depends on experience too. We have a number of pilots that have clocked 3k+ on F-4s.


according to latest news;
1.we lost, su-27SK vs F-4,
2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 in BVR fight and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.
5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF to make navy "lost face"


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## gypgypgyp

chengdusudise said:


> according to latest news;
> 1.we lost, su-27SK vs F-4,
> 2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 in BVR fight and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
> 3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
> 4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.
> 5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
> 6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF to make navy "lost face"



Holy ****!


2th division equip J-11B first batch. If what you state is correct, it mean J-11B which design and produced in 2006-2007 lost battle to F-4(when it was designed and produced?)


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## gypgypgyp

2th division is placed at Hainan island, to protect south china sea.

By the record and execrise from the past, they are No. 1 of PLAAF.

They get best pilot, best arecraft, best maintenance among all PLAAF division.


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## CardSharp

Jigs said:


> I can see this happening if the F-4s are 2020 terminators those have Israeli made Elta radars in them and they have a 150+km detection and tracking range. They can hold their own against most 4th gen platforms but they are not geared for dog fighting.



This goes back to beyond visual range vs dogfighting school of air combat. At BVR, the Elta radar would give a decided advantage, but really in BVR combat, the aircraft could be a WWI double decker prop plane for all it matters, what matters is the the gadgets on the plane not the performance of the plane or the pilot.


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## gypgypgyp

2th division only get 1 squadron J-11/Su-27 aircraft which is 6th squadron


the wrost J-11 in 6th squadron is first batch J-11B, the old Su-27SK has been transferred to other division years ago or retired.

I do not count SU-27UBK


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## chengdusudise

gypgypgyp said:


> Holy ****!
> 
> 
> 2th division equip J-11B first batch. If what you state is correct, it mean J-11B which design and produced in 2006-2007 lost battle to F-4(when it was designed and produced?)



they also has J-11,similiar to SU-27sk


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## siegecrossbow

Wait a second the PLANAF operates J-11s and Su-27s? I thought the only flanker that they operated were Su-30s.


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## below_freezing

chengdusudise said:


> 5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
> 6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF
> the PLA navy pilots are far inferior to PLA AF pilots, because in china, all aviation flight university are controlled by PLA AF, PLAAF choose the first rate graduats to fly fighter, the second rate graduats to fly bomber,such as H-6,. and kick the third rate graduats to PLA Navy.
> Navy is angry with airforce but has no other choice. now Navy want to bulid themselve's aviation flight university



where is the proof then? all i see is one yankee (that is his name) talking about how we lost and some taiwan guy spreading the rumor. started on page 11.

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

the f*ing story changes every 5 minutes why the hell is everyone obsessed by it?

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## gypgypgyp

chengdusudise said:


> they also has J-11,similiar to SU-27sk



you certainly get wrong info.

6th squadron is the No. 1 blue flag in Red/blue flag execrise. 


6th equip Su-27Sk since 1993. If they have a replacement, there is no reason replace Su-27sk by similar J-11A. Only J-11b fit for them.


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## Jigs

below_freezing said:


> i am questioning the validity of this news though.
> 
> We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.
> 
> *Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia?* In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.



I can't answer that bit but i can tell you that the Turkish Pilots faced would be *significantly different* in training to those of Pakistan and Russia. We follow a somewhat modified NATO doctrine.


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## ptldM3

below_freezing said:


> where is the proof then? all i see is one yankee (that is his name) talking about how we lost and some taiwan guy spreading the rumor. started on page 11.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------
> 
> the f*ing story changes every 5 minutes why the hell is everyone obsessed by it?



This news was started in a forum by a guy named yankee?

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## gypgypgyp

ANATOLIAN EAGLE


10-1 phase 19-30 April 2010

10-2 phase 07-18 June 2010

10-3 phase11-22 October 2010


THE EXECRISE HAS NOT BEEN STARTED!! 

WHO IS SENDING FAKE NEWS?

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## chengdusudise

gypgypgyp said:


> you certainly get wrong info.
> 
> 6th squadron is the No. 1 blue flag in Red/blue flag execrise.
> 
> 
> 6th equip Su-27Sk since 1993. If they have a replacement, there is no reason replace Su-27sk by similar J-11A. Only J-11b fit for them.



&#22914;&#26524;&#20320;&#35748;&#20026;2&#24072;&#20840;&#37096;&#35013;&#22791;&#30340;&#26159;11B&#65292;&#25105;&#20063;&#26080;&#35805;&#21487;&#35828;&#65292;&#20320;&#26377;&#35777;&#25454;&#20040;&#65311;


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## siegecrossbow

ptldM3 said:


> This news was started in a forum by a guy named yankee?



Well I guess the phrase isn't as well known in China as Free-Taiwan or Free-Tibet. People might've not made the connection right away.

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## chengdusudise

gypgypgyp said:


> ANATOLIAN EAGLE
> 
> 
> 10-1 phase 19-30 April 2010
> 
> 10-2 phase 07-18 June 2010
> 
> 10-3 phase11-22 October 2010
> 
> 
> THE EXECRISE HAS NOT BEEN STARTED!!
> 
> WHO IS SENDING FAKE NEWS?


&#24456;&#36951;&#25022;&#65292;&#20174;&#21508;&#20301;&#22823;&#20332;&#30340;&#21457;&#35328;&#37117;&#35828;&#24050;&#32463;&#27604;&#36807;&#24182;&#19988;&#36755;&#20102;&#65292;&#20320;&#26368;&#22909;&#26356;&#26032;&#19968;&#19979;&#20320;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#20102;


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## siegecrossbow

Jigs said:


> I can't answer that bit but i can tell you that the Turkish Pilots faced would be *significantly different* in training to those of Pakistan and Russia. We follow a somewhat modified NATO doctrine.



Sir I know that Pakistan is an ally of Turkey and one of the major participants in the Anatolian Eagles. Do you have stats on how Pakistani Airforce performed against the Turkish Airforce in the past?


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## gypgypgyp

chengdusudise said:


> &#24456;&#36951;&#25022;&#65292;&#20174;&#21508;&#20301;&#22823;&#20332;&#30340;&#21457;&#35328;&#37117;&#35828;&#24050;&#32463;&#27604;&#36807;&#24182;&#19988;&#36755;&#20102;&#65292;&#20320;&#26368;&#22909;&#26356;&#26032;&#19968;&#19979;&#20320;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#20102;



I don't care who confirm the result

I confirm my post from official website of ANATOLIAN EAGLE


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## Jigs

gypgypgyp said:


> ANATOLIAN EAGLE
> 
> 
> 10-1 phase 19-30 April 2010
> 
> 10-2 phase 07-18 June 2010
> 
> 10-3 phase11-22 October 2010
> 
> 
> THE EXECRISE HAS NOT BEEN STARTED!!
> 
> WHO IS SENDING FAKE NEWS?



Those are official exercise dates. This one was not official.


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## Jigs

siegecrossbow said:


> Sir I know that Pakistan is an ally of Turkey and one of the major participants in the Anatolian Eagles. Do you have stats on how Pakistani Airforce performed against the Turkish Airforce in the past?



None are disclosed. Which is why this came as a surprise. We also had Israeli and Turkish exercises and again none are disclosed. I was mainly referring to them having different doctrines for training and that they do.If this is true then i am 99% sure it was disclosed by the Chinese. 

The only other exercise i know of that was disclosed where Turkey took part is falcon air meet 07. That was a point based one that had to do with readiness and scrambles if i remember.
1.) TUAF- 1228 points
2.) Jordan Royal Air Force- 1194 points
3.) UAE Air Force- 883 points
4.) USAF- 778 points

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## below_freezing

chengdusudise said:


> &#24456;&#36951;&#25022;&#65292;&#20174;&#21508;&#20301;&#22823;&#20332;&#30340;&#21457;&#35328;&#37117;&#35828;&#24050;&#32463;&#27604;&#36807;&#24182;&#19988;&#36755;&#20102;&#65292;&#20320;&#26368;&#22909;&#26356;&#26032;&#19968;&#19979;&#20320;&#30340;&#28040;&#24687;&#20102;



&#35831;&#32473;&#20986;&#36830;&#25509;&#12290;&#38081;&#34880;&#20063;&#27809;&#26377;&#25253;&#36947;&#27492;&#28040;&#24687;&#12290;&#20320;&#36824;&#20449;&#19968;&#20010;&#33258;&#31216; YANKEE &#30340;&#20154;&#65311;


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## chengdusudise

gypgypgyp said:


> I don't care who confirm the result
> 
> I confirm my post from official website of ANATOLIAN EAGLE



&#20851;&#20110;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;&#20891;&#20107;&#26032;&#38395;&#27714;&#21161;&#20110;&#23448;&#26041;&#28040;&#24687;&#20320;&#21482;&#33021;&#27463;&#33756;&#12290;&#20320;&#33509;&#21482;&#20449;&#36825;&#20010;&#65292;&#20320;&#27704;&#36828;&#19981;&#30693;&#36947;&#35841;&#36194;&#35841;&#36755;


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## below_freezing

ptldM3 said:


> This news was started in a forum by a guy named yankee?



yes, he claims he has top secret connections in PLAAF too. a real air force member said that it is illegal to disclose this type of information, if true, and that censors should delete it if it is true. because it hasn't been deleted, then it's obvious that the censors think it's a joke.

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## below_freezing

chengdusudise said:


> &#20851;&#20110;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;&#20891;&#20107;&#26032;&#38395;&#27714;&#21161;&#20110;&#23448;&#26041;&#28040;&#24687;&#20320;&#21482;&#33021;&#27463;&#33756;&#12290;&#20320;&#33509;&#21482;&#20449;&#36825;&#20010;&#65292;&#20320;&#27704;&#36828;&#19981;&#30693;&#36947;&#35841;&#36194;&#35841;&#36755;



&#22914;&#26524;&#20182;&#35828;&#20013;&#22269;&#36194;&#20102;&#21602;&#65311;&#25110;&#32773;&#35828;&#20013;&#22269;&#37117;&#27809;&#21442;&#19982;&#21602;&#65311;&#20320;&#36824;&#20449;&#21527;&#65311;&#36825;&#28040;&#24687;&#20063;&#22826;&#31163;&#35889;&#20102;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#27492;&#20107;&#23646;&#23454;&#37027;&#31859;&#24093;&#24590;&#20040;&#27809;&#25253;&#36947;&#20986;&#26469;&#21602;&#65311;&#20013;&#22269;&#23617;&#22823;&#30340;&#23567;&#20107;&#20182;&#20204;&#37117;&#20250;&#25253;&#36947;&#20986;&#26469;&#65292;&#20917;&#19988;&#26159;&#36825;&#31181;&#36720;&#21160;&#24615;&#30340;&#26032;&#38395;&#65311;


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## siegecrossbow

Jigs already said that it is highly unusual that the info is leaked due to the fact that information regarding exercises are kept strictly confidential. So either someone in PLAAF leaked this or some idiot is spreading rumors on the internet once again. I really don't see any reason for the PLAAF to leak this unless they are masochists.


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## gypgypgyp

chengdusudise said:


> &#20851;&#20110;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;&#20891;&#20107;&#26032;&#38395;&#27714;&#21161;&#20110;&#23448;&#26041;&#28040;&#24687;&#20320;&#21482;&#33021;&#27463;&#33756;&#12290;&#20320;&#33509;&#21482;&#20449;&#36825;&#20010;&#65292;&#20320;&#27704;&#36828;&#19981;&#30693;&#36947;&#35841;&#36194;&#35841;&#36755;



The website was hosted by Turkey. It is Turkey official not China official news


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## SomeGuy

gypgypgyp said:


> I don't care who confirm the result
> 
> I confirm my post from official website of ANATOLIAN EAGLE





gypgypgyp said:


> The website was hosted by Turkey. It is Turkey official not China official news



China, Turkey held joint air exercise: Pentagon | TRDEFENCE



> Turkish press reports have said the exercises took place Sept. 20 through last Monday at the Konya air base in the Anatolia region. They came ahead of this week&#8217;s visit to Turkey by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao





> A Pentagon official, who asked not to be identified, said indications were that the Turkish air force flew F-4 Phantom fighters, used extensively by the US during the Vietnam War, while China flew Russian-built SU-27s.



I think what Jigs is saying is that these exercises (which took place on 20th Sept) were not part of Anatolian Eagle, even though they were conducted in the Anatolia region.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

siegecrossbow said:


> Jigs already said that it is highly unusual that the info is leaked due to the fact that information regarding exercises are kept strictly confidential. So either someone in PLAAF leaked this or some idiot is spreading rumors on the internet once again. I really don't see any reason for the PLAAF to leak this unless they are masochists.



could be internet rumours....who knows

i guess we must wait for more official sources


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## Jigs

SomeGuy said:


> China, Turkey held joint air exercise: Pentagon | TRDEFENCE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what Jigs is saying is that these exercises (which took place on 20th Sept) were not part of Anatolian Eagle, even though they were conducted in the Anatolia region.



Well they could be. What i was saying is these are not the official ones. In accordance with the time table of dates on the website. This was a special one. We have two types generally where one is international and one is only Turkey.


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## no_name

Hmmm someone releasing fake news in the hope that official will 'clear up' by releasing real details?


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## siegecrossbow

no_name said:


> Hmmm someone releasing fake news in the hope that official will 'clear up' by releasing real details?



Fish for what info? That the PLAAF didn't get sodomized when employing flankers against F-4s?


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## below_freezing

siegecrossbow said:


> Fish for what info? That the PLAAF didn't get sodomized when employing flankers against F-4s?



Do note that we don't even have a domestic media confirmation that this event even occured. They might want to see if it actually happened or not.


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## no_name

siegecrossbow said:


> Fish for what info? That the PLAAF didn't get sodomized when employing flankers against F-4s?



 Lol you do have a point...



edit: on the other hand Turkey may have already talked to US and Nato about this and F-4 may have been deemed acceptable for exercising with the "chicoms".


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## razgriz19

gypgypgyp said:


> Holy ****!
> 
> 
> 2th division equip J-11B first batch. If what you state is correct, it mean J-11B which design and produced in 2006-2007 lost battle to F-4(when it was designed and produced?)



NOOOO, he was saying that Sukhois were from 2th division but the pilots are from navy!
those are navy pilots flying airforce's sukhois!


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## SomeGuy

Does anyone know if it was the basic Su-27SK that was used?

I heard these basic Flankers are fairly poor anyway - no true fire & forget BVR capability, whereas modernised F-4's can use AIM-120 and have true fire & forget BVR capability.


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## Jigs

SomeGuy said:


> Does anyone know if it was the basic Su-27SK that was used?
> 
> I heard these basic Flankers are fairly poor anyway - no true fire & forget BVR capability, whereas modernised F-4's can use AIM-120 and have true fire & forget BVR capability.



Idk how capable these Flankers are but our terminators do not have AIM-120 capability so the kills were made by AIM-7 seekers. If the info released is true and say F-16s took part then it would have been worse since those would be using a AIM-120 training seeker in conjunction with the APG-68v9. Terminators are only used for deep strike roles to begin with.

Our F-4 Terminator specs



> F-4 Terminator 2020
> The latest in a long line of F-4 variants, the Terminators are a batch of Turkish AF F-4Es, modernized by Israel. They differ from the existing F-4E airframe in a number of key areas; small strakes have been fitted above the air intakes to improve the agility of the admittedly lumbering fighter, new attachment fittings have also been added, to better handle modern weaponry. Other additions include stronger wing fold ribs, an updated canopy sill bar, and the replacement of some 20km of wiring (reducing weight by 750 kg) as well as most hydraulic and pneumatic lines and hoses.
> 
> The most radical changes occurred in the avionics department. All 2020s have been fitted with vastly updated suite, including MFDs (multifunction displays) as standard, and incorporating a number of new technologies. new Kaiser El-OP 976 wide-angle HUD and HOTAS system, high performance Elta EL/M-2032 ISAR-capable high-resolution SAR/GMTI (ground moving target indicator) multi-mode fire control radar (developed for the IAI Lavi), IAIC mission computer, new navigation equipment including GPS/INS connected to mapping mode, dual MIL-STD-553B databus managing avionics package, Astronautics Central Air Data Computer, new UHF and IFF packages, airborne video tape recorder (AVTR), Elta EL/L-8222 active ECM pod and Mikes (Aselsan) AN/ALQ-178V3 passive embedded SPEWS, and RWR.
> 
> Additionally they had AGM-142 Popeye/Have Nap integration, Litening-II targeting pods, and the capability to launch AGM-65D/G Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, GBU-8 HOBOS, GBU-10/12 Paveway II LGBs, general purpose and cluster bombs for air-to-ground missions, while retaining the capability to launch AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. It is also possible to install Pave Spike targeting pods and rocket pods of all sizes.

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## gypgypgyp

SomeGuy said:


> Does anyone know if it was the basic Su-27SK that was used?
> 
> I heard these basic Flankers are fairly poor anyway - no true fire & forget BVR capability, whereas modernised F-4's can use AIM-120 and have true fire & forget BVR capability.



All Su-27/J-11 in PLAAF has BVR capacity. PLAAF upgrade it around 2000. 1300-1500 R-77 was puchased. J-11B can carry PL-12.

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------




SomeGuy said:


> China, Turkey held joint air exercise: Pentagon | TRDEFENCE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what Jigs is saying is that these exercises (which took place on 20th Sept) were not part of Anatolian Eagle, even though they were conducted in the Anatolia region.



PLAAF arrived Turkey on 30 Sep 2010


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## gypgypgyp

razgriz19 said:


> NOOOO, he was saying that Sukhois were from 2th division but the pilots are from navy!
> those are navy pilots flying airforce's sukhois!



It make news more like fake one.


2th division is A2A combat troop.

PLAN equip Su-30MKK is more like a striker/attacker.


And PLAN do not have training facility. All PLAN pilot was from PLAAF.


If you can read the chinese new, the first JH-7A pilot squadron who was trained by PLAN itself waere just have their first flight on JH-7A this year. I doubt PLAN will train pilot on Su-30MKK directly.


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## topjumper

Wow, this thread doubled in size overnight with people arguing with each other over some "unknown details"! 

Seriously, if the information doesnt sound true, its source doesn't look to be true, and it logically doesn't seem true, then allow me to say the obvious-- it's most probably not true, period. Read the piles of messages again yourself - speculations of the radar, data link, missiles, no. of planes, the pilots annual flying hours, the breakfast the pilot had, the type of tea he drank, the color of the underpants he wore during the flight (&#30333;&#35044;&#34921;/white(flag)), the size of the pilot's mother-in-law's shoe when she was 18 (size 8, hence 8:0) etc etc are all just... well, you get the message. These days as long as you lie big on the internet, you'll get attention & and there will be smart "experts"/"insiders" making hypothesis supporting it lol....

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## siegecrossbow

Just a funny thread that I found on the forum where the news that the Chinese flankers was beat 0:8 was leaked. Our thread is being discussed by them lol:

¡ïTurkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8£¨ÕæÏà£©[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base

Should some one go and tell them that we got the news from them, not vice versa?

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## Jigs

siegecrossbow said:


> Just a funny thread that I found on the forum where the news that the Chinese flankers was beat 0:8 was leaked. Our thread is being discussed by them lol:
> 
> ¡ïTurkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8£¨ÕæÏà£©[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base
> 
> Should some one go and tell them that we got the news from them, not vice versa?



Lets keep talking like we have a clue as to what is going on

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## siegecrossbow

Jigs said:


> Lets keep talking like we have a clue as to what is going on



...and see just how vicious the cycle could go lol. Maybe we could make Jigs famous on Chinese defence forums if you "leak" just enough info .

On a serious note however I am frustrated by the fact that, as you stated previously, the Turkish websites (English ones, of course) didn't say anything about the actual exercise or its outcome. All the speculations came from Chinese sources.


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## ptldM3

siegecrossbow said:


> Just a funny thread that I found on the forum where the news that the Chinese flankers was beat 0:8 was leaked. Our thread is being discussed by them lol:
> 
> ¡ïTurkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8£¨ÕæÏà£©[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base
> 
> Should some one go and tell them that we got the news from them, not vice versa?



   Did anyone quote me as an official source...? 

In unrelated news Zimbabwe Air Force F-7's and IL-76's beat British Typhoons 9:0, i have reliable sources.

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## siegecrossbow

ptldM3 said:


> Did anyone quote me as an official source...?
> 
> In unrelated news Zimbabwe Air Force F-7's and IL-76's beat British Typhoons 9:0, i have reliable sources.



Wow watch people actually start sending complain letters to PLAAF telling them to trade all the J-10s and J-11s for J-7s and J-8s lol.


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## Jigs

One thing i would like to point out though. The Anatolian eagle site updated the (07-18 June 2010) exercise.


Link>ANATOLIAN EAGLE

Seems the U.S. doesn't care about Israel being kicked out anymore as they took part in the exercise. Sorry Israel. No more training for you.

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## Kompromat

If you guys are believing that a Vietnam era fighter bomber F-4 platform can beat a Flanker by that margin then you guys also should believe that my Car flies faster then the apache longbow


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## qwerrty

this bs news is as credible as every sinosoldier's posts..

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## CardSharp

siegecrossbow said:


> Just a funny thread that I found on the forum where the news that the Chinese flankers was beat 0:8 was leaked. Our thread is being discussed by them lol:
> 
> &#161;&#239;Turkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8&#163;&#168;&#213;&#230;&#207;&#224;&#163;&#169;[Page:1] - &#191;&#213;&#190;&#252;&#176;&#230; - &#161;&#186; &#179;&#172;&#188;&#182;&#180;&#243;&#177;&#190;&#211;&#170;&#194;&#219;&#204;&#179; &#161;&#187; &#179;&#172;&#200;&#187;&#206;&#239;&#205;&#226; &#211;&#208;&#200;&#221;&#196;&#203;&#180;&#243; - Super Military Base
> 
> Should some one go and tell them that we got the news from them, not vice versa?



That is hilarious. This is like a feedback loop. They post something dubious, we pick it up, they cite our posts for reference, we start thinking they are posting new informations... and so on and so on.





qwerrty said:


> this bs news is as credible as every sinosoldier's posts..



Let's not make it personal

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## below_freezing

haha i read the link, they said that "the only credible news for this event is some pakistani forum"...


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## siegecrossbow

Latest news:

The mod on CD has spoken. No one could start speculative threads on the Anatolian Eagles exercise any more. Violators will be banned, apparently (several already have).

[¹«¸æ]¿Õ°æ²»ÔÙÌÖÂÛËùÎ½ÖÐÍÁ¶Ô¿¹ÑÝÏ°ÊÂ¼þ,ÓÐÒâÕßÇëÇ°Íù³©Ì¸¸úÌù[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base

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## Jigs

Well that concludes this thread. 


Results undisclosed. Interesting discussion none the less. 

Sadly i was not able to become famous. This is alright though (for another time) 


On a serious note. The most important thing is for all pilots that take part in the AE is for them to learn something new and keep improving their skills. Everyone is a winner here

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## SBD-3

keeping the controversial part aside, though F-4 is not an ideal match for J-11, yet the learning and exchange would be a valueable asset for PLAAF. I think PLAAF would also need to pay special attention on development of pilot training cuz USAF is not only respected for its potency but also excellent and rigorous pilot training as well. I think if PLAAF is aiming to slim to rightsize, they can afford a more rigorous pilot training program like that of Israeli Airforce which only selects the best resource for its service.Furthermore, More and more trainings with friendly countries would also add a lot of rich experience to PLAAF's kitty

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## DerekAnthony

Black Blood said:


> If you guys are believing that a Vietnam era fighter bomber F-4 platform can beat a Flanker by that margin then you guys also should believe that my Car flies faster then the apache longbow



Well there's a huge difference between the old Vietnam era F-4 and the ones Turkey have,i don't see it as impossible if China sent worthless people even if it's very unlikely.


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## CardSharp

DerekAnthony said:


> Well there's a huge difference between the old Vietnam era F-4 and the ones Turkey have,i don't see it as impossible if China sent worthless people even if it's very unlikely.



Why are you starting this useless debate again. I think everyone here's already agreed that this news is made up or otherwise unsourced.


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## SBD-3

CardSharp said:


> Why are you starting this useless debate again. I think everyone here's already agreed that this news is made up or otherwise unsourced.



he is "fresh" and we can expect such enthusiasm from "fresh" members around here

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## Akasa

*It was Su-27s, people. The Su-27s are about to be retired in the PLAAF. *In fact, ever since 1998, the Chinese have been seeking to replace the Su-27s.

It is the shittiest heavy fighter in PLAAF today. The J-8F/G/H has proven much better.

Why didn't China bring out newer fighters (i.e. J-10A, J-10B, J-11B, J-15, JF-17, JH-7A, etc...)?


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## ptldM3

SinoSoldier said:


> *It is the shittiest heavy fighter in PLAAF today*. The J-8F/G/H has proven much better.




Doubt it, but since you said so, explain what makes it so 'shitty'. Why replace a proven platform with excellent performance all around? Especially when avionics can be upgraded. I also think it's ironic how the SU-27 broke countless world records and has a combat record of 6:0 but it's 'shitty'.




SinoSoldier said:


> Why didn't China bring out newer fighters (i.e. J-10A, J-10B, J-11B, J-15, JF-17, JH-7A, etc...)?[/SIZE]



They didn't bring their newest fighters because this story is a fake rumor started by some hater in another thread.


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## no_name

SinoSoldier said:


> *It was Su-27s, people. The Su-27s are about to be retired in the PLAAF. *In fact, ever since 1998, the Chinese have been seeking to replace the Su-27s.
> 
> It is the shittiest heavy fighter in PLAAF today. The J-8F/G/H has proven much better.
> 
> Why didn't China bring out newer fighters (i.e. J-10A, J-10B, J-11B, J-15, JF-17, JH-7A, etc...)?


 If it was that bad why would they order more just in 1997?


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## below_freezing

no_name said:


> If it was that bad why would they order more just in 1997?



ignore what sinosoldier says and listen to huzihaidao instead.


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## no_name

below_freezing said:


> ignore what sinosoldier says and listen to huzihaidao instead.



I'm not taking his words I want to know his thoughts and reasons for his conclusions.


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## siegecrossbow

Guys can we shut this thread down once and for all? I think it is more appropriate to move the discussion to this thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/74715-turkey-china-conduct-joint-air-maneuvers.html

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## gypgypgyp

ptldM3 said:


> Doubt it, but since you said so, explain what makes it so 'shitty'. Why replace a proven platform with excellent performance all around? Especially when avionics can be upgraded. I also think it's ironic how the SU-27 broke countless world records and has a combat record of 6:0 but it's 'shitty'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't bring their newest fighters because this story is a fake rumor started by some hater in another thread.




PLAAF indeed start retire early batch Su-27sk(in service from 1992). 








Regarding with upgrading, PLAAF upgrade Su-27sk around 2000 to make it capable R-77. Due the poor record of R-27, the upgrading intend to spend minimum budget to let Su-27sk has basic BVR capacity, there is no major upgrading was carry out. 


It is very hard for PLAAF upgrade old version Su-27sk into new. Because back to 1980 PLAAF start follow US to study LSI, and USSR is focus on smaller size transistor. Actually it is easier for China build brand-new Su-27 rather than upfrade existing one. 

J-11B is the result.

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## SEAL

There is no mention of Mig-29 in that news perhaps its F4 kills against Mig-29 or combined/


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## 500

chengdusudise said:


> according to latest news;
> 1.we lost, su-27SK vs F-4,
> 2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 in BVR fight and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
> 3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
> 4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.
> 5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
> 6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF to make navy "lost face"



8 F-4 with EL/M-2032 slotted array antenna radar + Boeing 737 AEW&C with L-band AESA radar vs. 2 Su-27SK with old cassegrian N001 radars? Thats absolutely unfair competition for the Su-27SK. I dont think Chinese would agree on it. So rumor quite obviously is BS.


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## maverick1977

Guys i read whole 9 pages just to see mere speculations till the end. we need someone from chinese armed forces or turkish armed forces to give us more details.


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## siegecrossbow

maverick1977 said:


> Guys i read whole 9 pages just to see mere speculations till the end. we need someone from chinese armed forces or turkish armed forces to give us more details.



Good luck getting it from the Chinese armed forces...


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## aimarraul

AF refute rumors of disastrous defeat

*
&#31354;&#20891;&#35777;&#23454;&#65306;&#8220;&#20013;&#22269;&#31354;&#20891;&#31354;&#25112;&#24808;&#36133;&#22303;&#20891;&#8221;&#32431;&#23646;&#35875;&#35328;*

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## Brotherhood

aimarraul said:


> AF refute rumors of disastrous defeat
> 
> *
> &#31354;&#20891;&#35777;&#23454;&#65306;&#20013;&#22269;&#31354;&#20891;&#31354;&#25112;&#24808;&#36133;&#22303;&#20891;&#32431;&#23646;&#35875;&#35328;*




People.com refute rumors of so-called disastrous defeat.
¿Õ¾üÖ¤Êµ£º¡°ÖÐ¹ú¿Õ¾ü¿ÕÕ½²Ò°ÜÍÁ¾ü¡±´¿ÊôÒ¥ÑÔ--¾üÊÂ--ÈËÃñÍø
Criticism on the rumors spreaders from People.com
¡°ÍøÂçµÀµÂ¡±Óë¡°°®¹úÖ÷Òå¡±--¾üÊÂ--ÈËÃñÍø

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## fatman17

18 October 2010

*China denies sending aircraft to Turkey.*


October 18: Various media outlets have been reporting that Chinese Air Force Su-27 Flankers and MiG-29 Fulcrums had been exercising with Turkish Air Force aircraft at Konya Air Base recently under Exercise Anatolian Eagle, but here at Key we decided to await some evidence.

The Chinese Air Force has issued a statement saying that &#8220;joint training&#8221; has been undertaken with the Turkish military between September 20 and October 4, but that no aircraft were involved. 

In April 2009 the Chinese Air Force Commander General Xu Qiliang visited the Turkish Air Force Commander Hassan Al-Aqsa to agree &#8220;military exchanges&#8221; in the form of joint training. However, the statement goes on to say that the Chinese Air Force has no air-to-air refuelling capability and that Turkey is beyond the range of its fighter aircraft. Clearance to fly over Afghanistan was also never agreed, it said.


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## TrMhMt

*Yes guys this is true ....

Turkish f4s beaded Chinese Su-27s....!!! Bought countries have agreed not to announce the results ..... do not wait for official announcement !!! *


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## roach

Strange.....is it because of official policy to keep the results secret, or because one side got pasted? This is interesting news indeed.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Russian made su-27( real papa of su:30) beat by F-4?

Bad pilots?


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## TrMhMt

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Bad pilots?



Yes my source said that and upgraded F4s much modern than we thought !!!


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## siegecrossbow

TrMhMt said:


> Yes my source said that and upgraded F4s much modern than we thought !!!



Wait sir you have a Turkish source on this? Please share with us. So far all the info have been coming from Chinese forums.


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## Akasa

ptldM3 said:


> Doubt it, but since you said so, explain what makes it so 'shitty'. Why replace a proven platform with excellent performance all around? Especially when avionics can be upgraded. I also think it's ironic how the SU-27 broke countless world records and has a combat record of 6:0 but it's 'shitty'.



Su-27s were bought in 1991 as a desperate stop-gap when their J-10 and J-11 and J-8F fighters were under development. *Since then, they remained obsolete and not upgraded.*

In 1998, China started development of its indigenous new-generation J-11B fighter, which used completely indigenous technology and avionics. *By then, domestically-modified J-11A (superior to Su-27SK) was already inducted. *

This shows that China has not focused on the Su-27s* at all.* It instead is willing to continue to upgrade the J-11, J-10, and JH-7 series. 

Su-27 is already far superseded by domestic newer aircraft.
The J-10A also defeated the Su-27 6:1 in a mock dogfight.



ptldM3 said:


> They didn't bring their newest fighters because this story is a fake rumor started by some hater in another thread.



First of all, please enlighten me on your definition of "hater". We have no proof that this article is fake. And why would a person waste time making fake data, just to vent hatred? *It simply shows that Chinese pilots need a hell lot more training.*


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## Akasa

no_name said:


> If it was that bad why would they order more just in 1997?



They didn't order any more in 1997. *They set up a joint production in 1997. *It's called the J-11. The J-11 was then further modified into the J-11A (the first production J-11 variant). *The point of the production was to give China experience in building heavy fighters.*

The J-11A is superior to the Su-27SK in terms of avionics.

Then they designed and built the indigenous 4.5-generation J-11B. It incorporates completely indigenous technology.


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## ayibarishi

i believe this topic is not worthy for discuss.

dear chiniese friends. i must remember your close hitory. we fight against each other in korea. and when you participated tihs war, all un nations nearly defeated. ask tour fathers. they are certainly remember. all chinese people following the radio news and say that: are we win? are we fight equally with americans and other nations? is that possible?.. yes it's certainly possible!

please be more self confidence. because that rumor's origin is not my country.

no doubt, you have a great planes. j-10 and j-11 is in the top ten of most modern fighthter plane in the wold. and firt time, that planes coming the nato country turkey, fighting the equally us, almost real air battle scenerio. and two sides have a greate experiences. and this experiences nedd to be evaluate. and this evaluation process must be secred of course. 

i don't wonder what happend real out there. i don't wonder: what is the real performance of our or your planes. because i have a 2 certain information about you:
1. chiniese abilities can not be underestimated. your knowledge, abilies, technological capabilities is very good.
2. chinese people can not be underestimated. becouse i like history and we have a long long history... experience talk.
of course you have a many problems also. like other countrys is it?

and i have one hope about you: developing our relationship in the close future.

you must see: china is winner of this battle. (sun tzu i believe: the greatest victory is this one: gain the victory with no swords and no casualities.) we lived many first time. sit back and enjoy. this taste never be slander...

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## huzihaidao12

No one cares, a rumor, we have become accustomed.


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## siegecrossbow

SinoSoldier said:


> Su-27s were bought in 1991 as a desperate stop-gap when their J-10 and J-11 and J-8F fighters were under development. *Since then, they remained obsolete and not upgraded.*




Sir which parallel universe do you live in? All J-11 variations use Su-27 airframes so how could the Su-27 be a desperate stop-gap for the J-11?


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## Pacificrim

Hello everyone,
I have nothing to do with Turkish Army but I have checked a few sites and I found out in a Turkish aviation site that this is not a rumor. They mention that Turkey used only upgraded F-4, Chinese pilots were humiliated with final score.

I dont know what else I should say. All I know Anatolian Eagle Training Center Command is one of 3 in the world with Canada and USA.I have no idea what kind of output can be expected from upgraded F-4 but as far as the effectiveness of the pilots is concern I am amazed to see how you guys are underestimate the experience of Turkish top guns. 

I will not act childishly and compare with other countries but I will give you a tip to see behind the curtain. Turks never prefer showing off when it comes to war and fight. The oldest thick that they like is "lonely wolf" also called crescent. When wolf pack is determined to attack a strong prey, they send the weakest wolf alone. Firstly it strugles and then makes his pray chase him to the center of the pack which is formed as crescent. It worked for thousands of years for Turks. They are the masters of creating delusions for their enemies.

What I try to say here is do not delude yourself if Turks do not look much as a military power. Try to figure out what made them different in the history and they always ruled but never been ruled by any other nation in the history of human kind. 

Best Regards.
HaKhan.


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## Pacificrim

Hi guys.
I found an interesting article. Explains why israel has been removed from the list of military exercises for Anatolian Eagle. You will not believe. Theft
w w w .ekspresgazete.com/?/yazi/oku/3773
you can get it translate in google from turkish to english if you care.
Google managed to translate like this,
"theft problem ... 
This decision of the Turkish Air Forces, 3rd Main Jet Base in Konya in particular civil-military personnel said the relief. 
After the last drill base in the Israeli Air Force personnel participating in "stealing" their own transport aircraft M32 device when installing the full stated that they were found. M32 equipment, aircraft engines, the technical equipment used at putting a device into the study. 
But, at the end of the same exercise, the base guesthouse rooms in the full 19 units of television, the Israeli transport aircraft, moved again, this time by civilian personnel arrest, is considered the last straw by the Turkish Air Force. 
Israeli military personnel caught red-handed when playing television, "We, as Americans, in the city kalam&#305;yoruz, it will take you to our home base in gift not go so I could not import the" tests, the military records of our case in the past." 
I found that interesting..
Regards


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## siegecrossbow

Pacificrim said:


> Hi guys.
> I found an interesting article. Explains why israel has been removed from the list of military exercises for Anatolian Eagle. You will not believe. Theft
> w w w .ekspresgazete.com/?/yazi/oku/3773
> you can get it translate in google from turkish to english if you care.
> Google managed to translate like this,
> "theft problem ...
> This decision of the Turkish Air Forces, 3rd Main Jet Base in Konya in particular civil-military personnel said the relief.
> After the last drill base in the Israeli Air Force personnel participating in "stealing" their own transport aircraft M32 device when installing the full stated that they were found. M32 equipment, aircraft engines, the technical equipment used at putting a device into the study.
> But, at the end of the same exercise, the base guesthouse rooms in the full 19 units of television, the Israeli transport aircraft, moved again, this time by civilian personnel arrest, is considered the last straw by the Turkish Air Force.
> Israeli military personnel caught red-handed when playing television, "We, as Americans, in the city kalam&#305;yoruz, it will take you to our home base in gift not go so I could not import the" tests, the military records of our case in the past."
> I found that interesting..
> Regards



It looks like Turkey is being forced to realign strategically.


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## ayibarishi

dear hakan, is that true? because i follow every open and close turkish defence forum, and i can't remember you said... f4 is a good modernised plane thats true. but none of anatolian exercise, f-4 is not use agressor role or air superiority role. because after the modernisation that planes become a pure blood land attack figthters. think about that?..


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## Erwinhans

below_freezing said:


> ignore what sinosoldier says and listen to huzihaidao instead.



Man,we have updated our Su-27SK with new MFD and Su-27UBK to Su-27UBKM1 with Belarus.

Even there are one more version with 2 MFD made by Belarus


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## Erwinhans

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Russian made su-27( real papa of su:30) beat by F-4?
> 
> Bad pilots?



If you know their bad traning....


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## siegecrossbow

Why are we still talking about this guys? The incident has proven to be a rumor. Does anyone need me to translate the letter of apology the instigator wrote after the whole thing turned out to be a scam???

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## Capt.Popeye

siegecrossbow said:


> Why are we still talking about this guys? The incident has proven to be a rumor. Does anyone need me to translate the letter of apology the instigator wrote after the whole thing turned out to be a scam???



Quite right, this thread seems to be stretched out interminably for no reason.

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## pzkilo

Erwinhans said:


> Man,we have updated our Su-27SK with new MFD and Su-27UBK to Su-27UBKM1 with Belarus.
> 
> Even there are one more version with 2 MFD made by Belarus





Erwinhans said:


> If you know their bad traning....



Hey, Erwinhans. guess what? I just registered... for u
u know, u r a well-known lier in any chinese military forums. E.g CD/FY/Sbanzu. We call u Erwinhans the unwelcome. So, could u shut up plz?
&#27721;&#26031;mm,&#22312;&#22269;&#20869;&#34987;&#25171;&#33080;&#19981;&#22815;&#36824;&#36305;&#21040;&#22269;&#22806;&#26469;?
Btw, we all no that u r not a chinese.


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## LichKing

&#27516;20&#20986;&#26469;&#20102;


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## scuthan

This is a old joke...i am surprised to see it translated into English and spread outside china.


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## madmusti



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## madmusti



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