# Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool



## Manticore

* no spam thread! no disscussions thread! there are many alkhalid threads , not one of them covers all the details under 1 thread-- plz dont ask questions , only pool data , much like jft info pool thread

this is not 'anther' alkhalid thread , rather it will pool and unify data under 1 thread , for quick access*


















Type 90-II &#8211; Introduced in 1992


P3 &#8211; Prototype fitted with Chinese 125 mm gun and autoloader, Western fire-control system, Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 1200 hp diesel engine and French SESM ESM500 automatic transmission.


* Type 90-IIM, MBT-2000 &#8211; Type 90-IIM introduced in 2000 with Ukraine's KMDB 1,200 hp 6TD-2 diesel engine. Export version MBT-2000 introduced in 2001 at a defence exhibition in Abu Dhabi.[28] MBT-2000 selected by Peruvian Army in late 2009.[29] The contract was canceled in 2010[30]


* *Al-Khalid* &#8211; Based on P3 prototype, operational as of 2001. Has an ammunition capacity of 39 125 mm rounds, 500 12.7 mm rounds and 3,000 7.62 mm rounds.


* o Al-Khalid I * &#8211; Upgraded variant in testing as of April 2009.
Ammunition capacity increased to 49 125 mm rounds, 1,500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds.
Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute), Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems)which is a Ukrainian modification of Russian Shtora APS system., Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system.Al-Khalid 1 is equipped with a newly developed indigenous ERA which is not only light weight, but also more resistant to APFSDS, HEAT and HE-FS rounds. ERA is developed by Global Industries and Defense Solutions (GIDS) Corporation


* o Al-Khalid II* &#8211; In early stages of development and believed to incorporate re-designed turret, upgraded modular armour package and sensors, improved ammunition and new powerpack developing 1,500 hp.






Specifications







*Development*

The existence of the NORINCO Type 90 MBT was first revealed in late 1991 and compared to earlier Chinese MBTs it has significant improvements in the three key areas of MBT design: armour, mobility and firepower. Under a contract signed in May 1990, the Type 90-II is also to be manufactured under licence in Pakistan and further development has resulted in the Khalid MBT which is tailored to meet the specific operational requirements of the Pakistani Armoured Corps. Additional details of the Khalid, the first prototype of which was completed in June 1991 and which is also referred to as the MBT-2000 or P-90, are given under Pakistan. In many respects the NORINCO Type 90-II is similar to the Type 85-IIM although the former is heavier with improved protection and is powered by 1,200 hp diesel engine. Early in 1997, additional information on the Type 90-II MBT was released by NORINCO and at the same time it was revealed that it was now being offered fitted with explosive reactive armour to its hull and turret for improved battlefield survivability. By mid-1997, volume production of the Type 9-II MBT had yet to commence. It is understood that this vehicle is for the export market and not for the People's Liberation Army.
*Description*

The overall layout of the Type 90-II MBT is conventional with the driver's compartment at the front, fighting compartment in the centre and power pack at the rear. The hull is of welded steel construction with an additional layer of composite armour at the front. Explosive reactive armour has been added to the glacis plate and nose of the vehicle. The driver is seated in the centre and has a single-piece hatch cover that lifts and swings to the right and in front of this are three periscopes, the centre one of which can be replaced by a passive periscope for driving at night. The turret is in the centre and is of all welded steel armour construction to which a layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc. In addition, to the turret front, sides and forward roof has been added packs of explosive reactive armour. The commander is seated on the right and the gunner is seated on the left with both provided with single-piece roof hatches and vision devices. Main armament consists of a 125 mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor which is fed by an automatic loader which holds a total of 22 projectiles and charges which can be loaded at the rate of six to eight per minute. After the gun has fired it returns to an angle of 4 ° 15 ' for loading and then returns to the firing position.

Types of separate loading ammunition that can be fired by the 125 mm smoothbore gun include APFSDS (muzzle velocity 1760 m/s), HEAT (muzzle velocity 850 m/s) and HE-FRAG (muzzle velocity 950 m/s). According to NORINCO, the APFSDS-T projectile will penetrate 460 mm of steel armour at a range of 2,000 m. Barrel life is quoted as 500 rounds. A total of 39 projectiles are carried in the normal ratio of four APFSDS-T, three HEAT and three HE-FRAG. Mounted coaxial to the right of the main armament is a 7.62 mm machine gun while mounted on the commander's cupola is a 12.7 mm machine gun for engaging ground and aerial targets. The 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun has a cyclic rate of fire of 700 to 800 rds/min with a practical rate of fire of 250 rds/min. Effective range is quoted as 1,000 m. The 12.7 mm machine gun has a cyclic rate of fire of 650 to 700 rds/min with a practical rate of fire of 80 to 100 rds/min. Traverse is 360° with elevation from -4.5 to +70°. Effective range is quoted as 1,600 m.


The commander is provided with a two-axis stabilised panoramic sight while the gunner has a two-axis stabilised fixed roof-mounted sight. The image stabilised fire-control system (ISFCS) includes a laser rangefinder integrated into the gunner's sight, control panel, ballistic computer and a sensor for crosswind, tilt and angular velocity. This, together with the stabilised 125 mm gun and roof-mounted stabilised sights, enables the Type 90-II to engage stationary and moving targets while it is stationary or moving. If required, the tank commander can take over and lay and fire the main armament. According to NORINCO, Type 90-II has a 71 per cent hit probability on a moving target while the vehicle itself is moving. Target engagement time, stationary to stationary target is quoted as seven seconds, while on the move 10 seconds. Mounted either side of the turret is a bank of six electrically operated smoke grenade launchers which fire forwards and to the rear of this is a large stowage basket. When not required, the snorkel is normally carried in this stowage basket. The power pack consists of the engine, transmission and cooling system and can be removed as a complete unit in 30 minutes. The engine is a British Perkins (Engines) Shrewsbury CV12-1200 TCA diesel developing 1,200 hp coupled to a French SESM ESM 500 automatic transmission.


Suspension is of the torsion bar type and consists of six large dual rubber-tyred roadwheels with the drive sprocket at the front, idler at the rear and track return rollers. The upper part of the suspension is covered by a rubber skirt with the forward part on either side being covered by explosive reactive armour. Standard equipment includes an anti-neutron liner for the crew compartments, collective NBC system, explosion/fire detection and suppression system and infrared reflecting paint. It can also lay a smoke screen by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust outlets at the rear of the hull.

*CREW BAY EXPLOSION, DETECTION AND SUPPRESSION SYSTEM*

A military vehicle is designed for strength, its armour affording protection to the crew and giving them the confidence to perform in battle. But the possibility remains that penetration of its fuel tanks or fuel and hydraulic lines can lead to a devastating fireball, causing severe burning and toxic gas poisoning within milliseconds. This threat inevitably affects crew morale and it is therefore important to give the crew a means of surviving in the battlefield environment. The crew bay system is able to sense the incipient hazard and recognise it as an explosive fire within 2-3ms and to effect complete suppression in approx 100ms. It uses fast response sensors and rapid acting high-rate discharge suppressors. Because suppression has taken place in a few tens of milliseconds, the radiation from the fireball is harmless, the temperature rise is minimal, the pressure increase is survivable and, most importantly, the amount of toxic gas generated is limited to safe levels. The vehicle and crew have survived to fight another day. Crew bay systems are fitted to a range of vehicles including Leopard 2, CRARRV, Tariq, Khalid, Marconi Marksman, T90, Leclerc, M1A1, M1A2, LAV25, C1 Ariete MBT and Chunma amongst others.

*ENGINE COMPARTMENT FIRE DETECTION & EXTINGUISHING SYSTEM*

The engine compartment fire protection system has been designed to detect and extinguish engine fires caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine. Several seconds are typically available to suppress the fire and, generally, temperature detection is sufficiently rapid. A typical engine compartment system consists of a control unit, fire sensors (either continuous linear thermal or infrared optical fire/explosion) and an extinguisher distribution system. Engine compartments can be protected by installing linear thermal sensors, optical infrared sensors or an optical/thermal hybrid system to suit the specific application requirements. The control unit provides a warning signal if the fire is detected within the engine compartment. Extinguishing is achieved using an electrically or mechanically actuated high rate discharge system. AS90, CRARRV, Challenger, Leopard, T90, Khalid, C1 Ariete MBT and Chunma are just some of the vehicles which have been fitted with Kidde engine bay protection.




*AL-KHALID MBT UPGRADING PLAN *from tanknet


> A source from the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) told KDR that the production of AL-Khalid MBT has been going on very smoothly. Apart from Pakistan, there are a number of other countries also interested in this MBT, including Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Iraq and Indonesia. Other sources from the Pakistani Army disclosed to KDR that the Pakistani Army ordered an initial batch of 300 Al-Khalid MBTs, and a total of 200 have already been produced.
> 
> There is a plan to further enlarge the production line to the scale of manufacturing 100 Al-Khalid every year. The Saudi Arabian delegations paid field visit twice to HIT and tested Al-Khalid. Saudi Arabia plans to have an Al-Khalid delivered in 2007 for further testing. A source from the Pakistani Army confirmed that China has participated in the promotion of Al-Khalid MBT to Saudi Arabia.
> 
> A source from *French THALES told KDR that Pakistan has signed the contract of importing 900 sets of Catherine-FC thermal imaging systems *to be fitted on the Al-Khalid MBTs of the Pakistani Army. Delivery of these thermal imaging systems is expected to start in March 2007. As an integrated plan, the same type of thermal imaging systems will also be used to upgrade the T85IIAP MBTs currently in service. A source from HIT told KDR that the reason they did not choose the Chinese-made thermal imaging systems was that they did not meet the demands of the Pakistani Army.
> 
> Kanwa has learned that even the latest upgraded 99G MBTs use mechanical scanning thermal imaging system. *Catherine-FC thermal imaging system works at 8-12&#956;m band, weight smaller than 5.5kg, image resolution 754X576, wide field of view (WFOV) 9ºX6.7º, and narrow field of view (NFOV) 3ºX2.2º. Catherine-FC has a detection range of 10,000m for tanks, recognition range 4,500m, and identification range 2,300m.*
> 
> In order to promote Al-Khalid MBTs to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan has also used *Matis thermal imaging system produced by French SAGEM *for testing purpose, mainly because the armored forces of the Saudi Arabian Army are currently using Sagem&#8217;s thermal imaging systems. The third generation Matis thermal imaging system works at 3-5&#956;m band, weight smaller than 4.5kg, WFOV 12ºX8º, NFOV 2.5ºX1.7º, detection range for tanks 11,000m, recognition range 5,300m. The identification range of the system is not yet revealed.
> 
> The Chinese tank experts told KDR that Pakistan has made rapid progress in tank design. The Chinese side is also very impressed by the new Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS) fitted on Al-Khalid.* This IBMS is designed and produced by the Pakistani Integrated Defense Systems*, and the system is already installed on some Al-Khalid command MBTs in effective service. With this IBMS, the battlefield situations between the two sides of confrontation can be transmitted through the video camera and unmanned aerial vehicle. This transmission system is capable of processing data and transmitting command orders as well as displaying different 3D topographical images and maps. The designer of the system stressed that they have also planned to connect the IBMS with satellite in the future.
> 
> An upgrading plan for Al-Khalid MBT is in the making. The first step will be replacing the engine system. Experts from HIT say that they are right now considering using the *German-made 1,500hp engines to replace the Ukraine-made 6TD2 engines*. (As good as the German engines may be, one has to consider the wisdom of using a more expensive, more sanction prone engine for our front line tank, but then we're considering U-214 as well!) For this purpose, Al-Khalid&#8217;s engine compartment has reserved a 1m space for the installation of greater power engine.
> *Meanwhile, Pakistan has decided to outfit active protection system on Al-Khalid, similar to the Russian Shtora system. Pakistan has obtained at least one such system respectively from Ukraine and China for testing purpose.* The Ukrainian version Shtora has already been tested on one Al-Khalid MBT. This system is composed of the laser detection and IR detection subsystems.
> 
> In addition, Pakistan has also designed independently a laser detection system for Al-Halid for exercises and training. This system can perform laser beam detection and is composed of 8 units of laser detectors which are fitted on the two sides of Al-Khalid turret and on the front as well, providing a 180 deg forward-coverage.
> 
> Pakistan does not have a plan to fit gun launched ATMs on Al-Khalid MBT at the moment. The source also said that the plan of installing new engines and gun launched ATMs will be determined by the demands of respective clients, and Pakistan has the capability to undertake such upgrading for the clients.
> 
> 
> Other sources from the Pakistani Army say that the plan of installing gun launched ATMs on the tanks of the Pakistani Army will be first tested on T80UD. *Nonetheless, the Pakistani Army has much greater expectation for Al-Khalid MBTs than for T80UD. General Ehsan-ul-Haq, Chairman of Joint Staff of the Pakistani Military, says that Al-Khalid&#8217;s performance is much better than T80UD.*
> 
> As it was mentioned above, the upgrading plan of T85IIAP is related to the installation of Catherine-FC thermal imaging system produced by Thales Company on Al-Halid MBTs. A source from the Pakistani Army stresses that in addition to outfitting thermal imaging system on T85IIAP, there are no other major upgrading plans. *Pakistan once considered using the T serial tank upgraded thermal imaging system produced by the British Maconi Company. Since 2001, Pakistan has conducted winter and summer tests of the above two systems and Maconi eventually lost to Thales.*
> 
> The upgrading of Al-Zarrar MBT has been going on very smoothly. A source from the Pakistani Army says that up to the present, they have finished upgrading 300 of them. The Army plans to upgrade a total of 611 T59 tanks so that they can reach the standard of Al-Zarrar. The direction of future upgrading of these T59 tanks will be the same as that for T85IIAP and Al-Khalid MBTs, i.e. to further upgrade the fire control system.* For the A1-Zarrar upgrading project, Pakistan has chosen the THETIS thermal imaging system produced by Italian Galileo *Avionica Company.
> A source from Galileo Avionica told KDR that THETIS thermal imaging system originated from ARES gunner sight system, but THETIS did not include the laser range finder. The fire control system of Al-Zarrar is still made by China in order to lower cost, and Pakistan has only selected the Italian thermal imaging system. As a 2nd generation thermal imaging system, THETIS works at 8-12&#956;m band and uses digital signal processing system. Other technical details of this system have not been revealed. The source told KDR that Galileo Avionica has delivered to Pakistan 10 sets of THETIS thermal imaging systems for testing purpose, a total of 200 such systems will be delivered, indicating that not all Al-Zarrar tanks will be fitted with THETIS. The full upgrading plan will start in 2007.
> As for the engine system, Al-Zarrar is powered by the 730hp diesel engines. This 730hp engine can give a power to weight ratio of 18.3hp/t and a maximum speed of 55km.
> 
> In summary, the basic technologies of the Pakistani tank industry indeed came from China, but in the course of constant upgrading, Pakistan is now enjoying much greater independence. More western fire control systems have been fitted on the Pakistani tanks.





SPECIFICATIONS :

Crew: 3

Combat weight: 48,000 kg
Power-to-weight ratio: 25 hp/t
Length:

(main armament forwards): 10.067 m
(main armament rear): 9.687 m
Width

(without skirts): 3.40 m
(with skirts): 3.50 m
Height (turret roof): 2.37 m
Firing height: n/avail
Ground clearance: 0.45 to 0.51 m
Track: 2.79 m
Track width: n/avail
Length of track on ground: 4.78 m
Maximum speed:
(1st gear, low): 9 km/h
(1st gear): 15 km/h
(2nd gear): 22 km/h
(3rd gear): 39 km/h
(4th gear): 62.3 km/h
Acceleration (0 to 32 km/h): 10 s
Maximum range: 450 km
Fording:
(without preparation): 1.40 m
(with preparation): 5 m
Gradient: 60%
Side slope: 40%
Vertical obstacle: 0.85 m
Trench: 2.7 m

Engine: Type: 6TD2 (1,200 HP)

Transmission: ESM 500 hydromechanic with infinitely variable
hydraulic steering
Brakes: n/avail
Suspension: torsion bar
Electrical system: n/avail
Batteries: n/avail

Armament:
(main): 1 x 125 mm gun 125mm Smooth Bore, Chrome Plated, Auto fret aged
Circular Carousel Type: (Cassette Type) 22 Rounds / Minute 6-8

FCS/GCS : Type: Image Stabilized (3rd generation director type stabilization), Optics: LASER protected (coaxial): 1 x 7.62 mm MG
(anti-aircraft): 1 x 12.7 mm MG
Smoke grenade dischargers: 2 x 6, can also lay smoke screen by injecting diesel into the exhaust outlets at the rear

GUNNER SIGHT : Type Integrated, Bi-axis Stabilized Day/Night, Tl, LRF
Magnification Dual, 3x & 1 Ox
Field of View 20° & 6°

COMMANDER SIGHT:
Type Panoramic,
Bi-Axis stabilized,
LRF, 2nd Generation IIT
Hunter-Killer Capability
Magnification 7.5x
Field of View 7 . 5
LRF : Type ND YAG
Range200 ~ 5000m
AUTO TRACKER: Tracking Error < 0.1 mils Interfaced with Gunner Day Sight & Tl

PROTECTION: Armor Composite (Frontal Arc) ERA, Yes Optional

Ammunition:
(main): 39
(coaxial): 3,000
(anti-aircraft): 500
Grenades: 16 (12 Smoke, 4 HE)
Gun control equipment
Turret power control: powered/manual
(by commander): yes
(by gunner): yes
Turret traverse: 360°
Gun elevation/depression: n/avail
Gun stabiliser: 2-axis
NBC: yes
Night vision equipment: yes

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## Manticore

*

Apr 18, 2011
Pakistan Produces Indigenous 125 Millimetre Tank Gun For Al-Khalid Tank *




> A Pakistani Newspaper Monday said that the tank gun is ready to be delivered to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks. A tank gun is the main armament of a tank.
> 
> HIT used to earlier procure 125 millimetre 'blanks' from France for the army's two main battle tanks. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel before it is finished. It was then fitted into the tank at HIT.
> 
> While Al-Khalid - a joint venture between Pakistan and China - has been with the army since 2001, Al-Zarar is an upgraded T-59 tank.
> 
> The country's first blank was produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila.
> 
> Dawn quoted an official as saying the army had given a go-ahead for the production of 50 125 mm barrels for the two MBTs.
> 
> A specialised weapons grade steel was used to manufacture the tank gun. A block of metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125 mm barrel.
> 
> The HIT has finalised a deal for Rs.200 million for the 50 barrels, which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel bought from France.
> 
> The official said that after delivering 50 tank guns, the HMC plans to produce artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.





Al Khalid MBT-2000 / Type 2000 Main Battle Tank

The Al Khalid tank is based on the Chinese Norinco Type-90-II Main Battle Tank (MBT). This a Pakistani built tank, all of it except its engine is made in Pakistan. The engine is is a Ukrainian 6TDF diesel developing 1,200 hp. engine the same used in T-80/84 tanks. Besides a low silhouette, it is considerably smaller as compared to other modern tanks, with a maximum weight of 46 tons. The Al-Khalid MBT has a crew of three. It had a combat range of 400Km and is fitted with thermal night-vision devices. It has a maximum speed of 65-70Km/hr with an acceleration of 0-32Km/hr in 10 seconds. It's armor is made of composite material as well as explosive reactive armor.

The Al Khalid is fitted with a smooth bore gun of 125mm which can also fire missiles. Al-Khalid's main gun is 125mm smooth bore with autoloader. The unique feature of Al-Khalid is that it is equipped with auto tracker system. It also has hunter killer capability which can track and engage more than one targets while on the move. The tank can operate fully even during night with thermal imagery systems. Tank's maximum speed is upto 70km per hour.

Pakistan's development of the MBT-2000 Al Khalid began in 1988, and in January 1990 an agreement was reached with China to jointly design, develop and manufacture system. The design is an upgrade from the original T902M and work had been going on at China's NORINCO for some years. Initial prototypes were produced in China and fielded for trials in August 1991. Pakistan's manufacturing plant at Taxila was completed in 1992. Since then development efforts focused on improving the design for Pakistan's terrain and high temperatures. The engine of the T90 2M is replaced by the Ukrainian 6TD 1200hp engine, and a newly developed thermal viewer system has been added to improve nocturnal fighting capability. US$20 million were reportedly spent on the indigenous development of the Al-Khalid tanks over a period of eight years.

Ukraine is a key partner in the production of the Al-Khalid tank which is a joint venture between China, Pakistan and Ukraine. Ukraine is also providing assistance to Pakistan in the Upgrade/Re-Build its T-59 tanks to the Al-Zarar Configuration, which is intended to match the T-80UD tanks. In February 2002 Ukraine announced that the Malyshev plant would provide another 315 engines for Al-Khalid tanks over three years. The contract's estimated value was $125-150 million.

Ukraine possesses one of the most reliable tank engines in the conditions of hot climate. It is the result of the strategy of tank building development. At one time Ukraine and Russia, as two great tank powers, took two different ways of tank engine development. Ukrainian constructors chose the Diesel direction, while Russian ones the gas turbine, like many other countries. Now, according to the words of the chief designer of Ukraine armored troops, head of the Kharkov machine-building design office lieutenant general Mikhail Borisyuk, when the principal prominent buyers of armored equipment are located in countries with hot climate, the stability of engines with the ambient air temperature higher than 50 degrees has become one of the key factors for tanks reliability. In the extreme conditions of hot climate gas-turbine engines of China and Poland, created on the base of B-1, B-2 engine types, Russian engines, having had serious problems during testing in India, started to receive transient errors. At the same time Ukrainian engines on the tanks T-80UD, provided to Pakistan, showed high reliability.

Heavy Industries Taxila started production of Al-Khalid in November 2000. The Chinese ground army has not made any purchase orders and will not use the same tank when it does decide to buy a next-generation armored vehicle. As of early 2002 Pakistan had about twenty Al-Khalid tanks in service. It had received its first consignment of 15 Al-Khalid MBTs in July 2001. Pakistan's Army reportedly hoped to produce a total of 300 more tanks by 2005. According to a 2001 report, Pakistan planned to add another 300 indigenous Al-Khalid tanks to its armored corps by 2007. On September 23, 2004, Pakistan received an additional consignment of Al-Khalid MBTs. In 2004 it was reported that the Pakistan army already had in its inventory 90 Al-Khalids fully operational. At that time the HIT was said to be "rolling out 50 Al-Khalids every year and by next year with additional allocations the production will be doubled." Pakistan plans to build a total of 600 Al-Khalid tanks for its armed forces. The production rate in 2004 was estimated by HIT to be 45-60 annually, dependent on budget allocation, and some 220 were in service as of May 2008. Development continues, with modifications in the fire control system and linkage [by the end of 2008 IISS thought that no more than the original batch of 45 tanks were in service].

During April 8-11, 2002, at DSA-2002 international exhibition of armament, Malaysian military and government officials considered the Al-Khalid tank as the best, and showed their interest in buying it from Pakistan. The UAE showed interest in 2003 in buying Pakistani military hardware including Al-Khalid main battle tank, Mushshak trainers and various other defence items that Pakistan can offer. In June 2003, Pakistan also decided to export Al-Khalid tanks to Bangladesh and to upgrade military-to-military relations with Bangladesh. In March 2006, Jane's Defence Weekly reported that Saudi Arabia was planning to evaluate the Al-Khalid in April 2006. Pakistani defense officials said the Saudi government may be interested in purchasing up to 150 Al-Khalid for $600 million USD.

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## Manticore

Pakistani president pervez musharraf saidwhile giving first batch to army that these newly built "indigenous" mbt could be matched only by the german leopards. "with the highest power to weight ratio in the world, al-khalid has agility that can be matched only by the german leopard. "its ability to automatically track targets, similarly, is available only on the french leclerc. with hunter killer day-night sight and a state of the art fire control system, al-khalid is truly a world class tank,"
tank was built within eight years at a cost of $20 million



*Individual details*

*1) Night firing capability through Thermal Imagers.*

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual magnification thermal imaging sight. The powerful fire control system computer processes all the firing information, which includes inputs from its ten sensors and is integrated to both sights.

*2) Auto-Tracking system.*

The automatic ammunition handling system, with 24 round ready-to-fire magazine further supplements the Hunter-Killer capability of the tank which can load at a rate of 8 rounds a minute. The presence of automatic target tracking system enables the tank to achieve a very high first round hit probability even while firing on a moving target while moving itself.

*3) 125mm (48 caliber) smooth bore, auto-frettaged and chrome plated gun which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and missiles.*


*4) Laser range finders for commander and gunner sights.*

*
5) Fire control system and the FCS digital computer.*
The ballistic computation time is less than one second. For accurate fire control, third generation gating facility has been provided. The result of such a modern fire control system is, routine first round hits on standard (8 ft x 8 ft) targets at ranges in excess of 2000 meters.
The tank with its 125mm gun has a remarkably stable platform, which is provided by a combination of soft recoil and an excellent suspension.

Wrapped around the fire control system are the ergonomic crew positions and controls. The tank commander, gunner and driver can virtually reach all their controls with little movement.

*
6) Electro-Hydraulic power drives.*

*
7) Engine , mobility , suspension, transmission*


The production model Al-Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine. The 6TD-2 is a supercharged 6-cylinder engine delivering 1,200 horsepower (890 kW). The 2-stroke design, with the pistons arranged horizontally in an opposed piston configuration, makes the engine very compact and therefore more suitable for being fitted into relatively small vehicles such as the Al-Khalid MBT.[24]

The 6TD-2 engine drives a French-designed hydro-mechanical automatic transmission, the SESM ESM500, also fitted to the Leclerc MBT. Capable of manual and fully automatic power-shifting, the transmission has 5 forward and 2 reverse speeds along with a braking system that incorporates carbon friction brakes and a secondary speed-retarding system. Gear shifts are controlled by a torque converter which is made more efficient by addition of an automatic lock-up clutch. There is also a mechanical back-up system for use in emergencies, able to shift 2 gears forward and reverse.

The suspension consists of torsion bars, hydraulic dampers and buffers, who's role is to provide a stable firing platform while the tank is moving at speed over rough terrain and as smooth a ride as possible to reduce crew fatigue. The tracks are mounted on six dual wheels with rubber tyres, a drive sprocket at the rear and an idler at the front. They are protected by side skirts, the forward sections of which can be fitted with explosive reactive armour, and track wear is reduced by replaceable rubber track pads.[3]

The Al-Khalid is fairly lightweight by Western standards, weighing 46 tonnes compared to the 60 tonne M1 Abrams and Leopard 2.[25] A power-to-weight ratio of 26.66 hp/tonne gives acceleration from 0 to 32 km/h (0 to 20 mph) in 10 seconds and a maximum speed of 70 km/h, the speed and agility also helping to improve survivability.


*8) Armour.*

Al-Khalid has modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour, nuclear-biological-chemical defences, an effective thermal smoke generator, internal fire extinguisher and explosion-suppression system. The infra-red signature of the tank is reduced by infra-red reflective paint.[3] Al-Khalid 1 is equipped with a newly developed indigenous ERA which is not only light weight, but also more resistant to APFSDS, HEAT and HE-FS rounds. ERA is developed by Global Industries and Defense Solutions (GIDS) Corporation. [26] Al-Khalid is also equipped with an Active protection system known as VARTA (guards) which is a Ukrainian modification of Russian Shtora APS system. HIT is also working on an indigenous APS system for future batches especially for Al-Khalid 2.





Composite armour is a type of vehicle armour consisting of layers of different material such as metals, plastics, ceramics or air. Most composite armour are lighter than their all-metal equivalent, but instead occupy a larger volume for the same resistance to penetration. It is possible to design composite armour stronger, lighter and less voluminous than traditional armour, but the cost is often prohibitively high, restricting its use to especially vulnerable parts of a vehicle. Its primary purpose is to help defeat high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds.


An element of explosive reactive armour consists of a sheet or slab of high explosive sandwiched between two plates, typically metal, called the reactive or dynamic elements. On attack by a penetrating weapon, the explosive detonates, forcibly driving the metal plates apart to damage the penetrator. Against a shaped charge, the projected plates disrupt the metallic jet penetrator, effectively providing a greater path-length of material to be penetrated. Against a long rod penetrator, the projected plates serve to deflect and break up the rod.

The disruption is attributed to two mechanisms. First, the moving plates change the effective velocity and angle of impact of the shaped charge jet, reducing the angle of incidence and increasing the effective jet velocity versus the plate element. Second, since the plates are angled compared to the usual impact direction of shaped charge warheads, as the plates move outwards the impact point on the plate moves over time, requiring the jet to cut through fresh plate material. This second effect significantly increases the effective plate thickness during the impact.

To be effective against kinetic energy projectiles, ERA must use much thicker and heavier plates and a correspondingly thicker explosive layer. Such "heavy ERA," such as the Soviet-developed Kontakt-5, can break apart a penetrating rod that is longer than the ERA is deep, again significantly reducing penetration capability.

Explosive reactive armour has been valued by the Soviet Union and its now-independent component states since the 1980s, and almost every tank in the eastern-European military inventory today has either been manufactured to use ERA or had ERA tiles added to it, including even the T-55 and T-62 tanks built forty to fifty years ago, but still used today by reserve units.

ERA tiles are used as add-on (or "appliqué") armour to the portions of an armoured fighting vehicle that are most likely to be hit, typically the front (glacis) of the hull and the front and sides of the turret. Their use requires that the vehicle itself be fairly heavily armoured to protect the vehicle and its crew from the exploding ERA; usually, ERA cannot be mounted on the less heavily armoured sides or rear of a vehicle.

A further complication to the use of ERA is the inherent danger to anybody near the tank when a plate detonates (disregarding that a HEAT warhead explosion would already present a great danger to anybody near the tank). Although ERA plates are intended only to bulge following detonation, the combined energy of the ERA explosive, coupled with the kinetic or explosive energy of the projectile, will frequently cause explosive fragmentation of the plate. The explosion of an ERA plate creates a significant amount of shrapnel, and bystanders are in grave danger of serious or fatal injury. As a result, infantry needs to operate some distance from vehicles protected by ERA in combined arms operations.

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## Manticore

*9) NBC, an effective Thermal Smoke Generation, Automatic Fire Extinguishing and Explosion Suppression Systems.*

*
10) GPS/INS guided Underwater navigation subsystem.*

Navigation is assisted by an inertial navigation system (INS) and a GPS satellite navigation system. 


*
11] IBS*
The tank is equipped with the "Integrated Battlefield Management System" (IBMS), named 'Rehbar', a digital communications system developed domestically by HIT and CARE (Centre for Advanced Research in Engineering).[21] It comprises a flat-screen display mounted inside the tank which communicates with those of other vehicles, including command posts such as the HIT Sakb. It uses a data-link to facilitate secure communication of battlefield information between units, including tank video footage and information from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).


INTEGRATED BATTLEFIELD MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

Category : Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)
Manufacturer : GIDS/IDS
Detail


Integrated Battlefield Management System(IBMS) is designed for the operations of amour units in the field to meet the requirements of future battlefield. The user- friendly system provides battlefield awareness through comprehensive land navigation system based on GPS and digitized maps. It enables commanders in mission planning, modification and dissemination of plans, monitoring of battlefield at tactical and operational level, through safe and secure radio network. It facilitates integration of external sensors for data/information acquisition and showing it within the scope of C4I environments. IBMS also facilitates commanders in remote firing of AAMG by auto tracking the aerial and ground targets from inside the tank.
IBMS3

* Safe and secure information sharing through ad hoc networking of radios
* Remote operation of 12.7mm aamg from inside the tank
* Driver panel to facilitate driver to follow the correct route with the help of directional bars
* Auto target tracking for arial and ground targets
* Laser target indication to indicate location of the hostile elements and its engagement
* Rugged hardware to work in harsh environmental conditions based on military specifications










::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::
BMS

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## Desert Fox

*Ukrainian VARTA Active Threat Protection System (similar to Russian Shotra-1) to be integrated on Al-KhalidI/II*


> Though electronic and other upgrades, such as increasing the rate of fire to nine rounds a minute, are not readily apparent, one visible modification is what HIT officials describe as the Active Threat Protection System. This is the Ukrainian "Varta'' electro-optical jammer, which bears a strong resemblance to the Russian/Ukrainian Shotra-1.
> 
> *According to HIT, this system decoys anti-tank guided missiles and counters laser designators and range finders by causing false readings to disrupt tracking.*

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## Manticore

*12] Armament*

Al-Khalid is designed with a 125 mm (length: 48 calibers) smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire the following types of conventional ammunition: APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS. Despite a common belief that the gun is Chinese, it was later changed to a modified variant of KBA-3 series of 125&#8239;mm smooth bore gun for Al-khalid mbt which provided compatibility with Ukrainian ATGMs such as Kombat. Gun-launched, laser-guided anti-tank guided missiles can also be launched and two types are believed to be in use on the Al-Khalid, the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) produced in China under licence and the Ukrainian-designed Kombat,[17] which may have been modified in Pakistan to incorporate a larger warhead.[18]

Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km).[19] Al-Khalid is equipped with a muzzle reference system and dual-axis stabilization system. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The automatic ammunition-handling system for the main gun has a 24-round ready-to-fire magazine and can load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.[20]

The tank is also equipped with a 7.62 mm-coaxial machine gun, a 12.7 mm externally-mounted air-defence machine gun that can be aimed/fired from within the tank and smoke grenade launchers.

The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic sight for all-around independent surveillance. Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders. The commander has the ability to acquire a target independently while the gunner is engaging another one thus giving it true hunter-killer capability. The automatic target-tracking system is designed to work when tank and target are both moving. Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight. Both sights are integrated with the fire-control system.[20] The production Al-Khalid tank has a fire-control system of western origin. In the MBT 2000, the Chinese Norinco fire-control system has inputs from ten sensors. The ballistic computation time is less than one second. The manufacturer claims routine first round hits on standard 8 ft (2.4 m) square targets at ranges over 2,000 meters.

* Effective range: 200 to 7&#8239;000&#8239;m
* Sensor: laser ranging from 200 to 9&#8239;990&#8239;m
* French Auto-tracking, interfaced with gunner station, firing four types of munitions, gunner's thermal imaging sight, commander's image intensification night vision sight, gyro-stabilized and UPS power supply system.



*

13] datalink*

*
14] navigation*

*
15] advanced laser detection system*

An advanced laser detection system from Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) is present, the ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat warning system developed by Institute of Industrial Control Systems.[27] LTS 1 consists of a mast-mounted sensor and operator's control box, which includes a display showing threats 360 degrees around the tank. It can detect laser rangefinders and laser target designators as well as respond automatically by triggering acoustic alarms, smoke generators and other countermeasure systems. LTS 1 can detect laser devices operating in the 0.8 to 1.06 µm waveband, has a 360° field of view in azimuth (resolution of 15°) and a field of view in elevation of -15° to +90°. Operating voltage is 12 V or 24 V DC nominal with power consumption being 8 W nominal. The sensor head is 165 mm in diameter and 35 mm high while the control box is 80 x 130 x 55 mm in size. Laser Threat sensor LTS786P is an early warning device which gives audio and visual alarms of threat by sensing a laser beam aimed at it from any direction. The exact location of the threat (in-coming beam) is indicated by nine LEDs, covering all directions above horizon. It has the capability to differentiate between a laser Range Finder, Laser Target Designator or a Laser Target Tracker Signal. In addition, provision of sensor output signal, interfacing for appropriate counter-measures, is also available. It can be used on stationary or moving objects of any size or shape. Maximum operating Range is 10 km.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:
Response: Enhanced for Nd:YAG Laser Signal
Range: >10,000 m
Field of view: Capable of detecting any signal aimed towards LTS786P.
Detector type: Silicon Photodiode
Size (approx): 214 x 134 mm (sensor Head)
126 x 123 x 100 mm (Display Unit)
Weight 2 kg (sensor Head) (Approx): 1 kg (Display Unit)


*
16] Dynamic Integrated Training Simulator*

D.I.T.S is 6DOF motion based Al-Khalid Tank Simulator developed for pakistan army. Its a complete training system capable of training driver, gunner and commander at same time.
DITS trains tank crew in

* All tank operating procedures
* Tactical decission making
* Battle scenarios
* Firing procedures
* Driving procedures
* Identifying and engaging the enemy targets
* Emergency situations
* Engaging enemy in different weather conditions
* Improve firing efficiency and firing time 
http://sites.google.com/site/theabsar/projects-deployed/dynamic-integrated-training-simulator

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## Manticore

*AK Tank Simulator contin..*







Ibn-e-Yousuf said:


> Hi all,
> 
> i had the privilege of working on the AKTS, it was developed by a private company in collaboration with MVRDE in Karachi. Initially the Base mechanical platform was acquired from US, but now the company is making its own platforms with complete 6 Degree-of-freedom. The simulator involved a pool of engineers from Electronics, mechanical and software side. A complete directx Graphics engine along with a physics engine was made. Motion cueing algorithm was implemented to simulate the motion of Al-khalid. Most of the software used was not off-the-shelf. HLA framework was used which we had molded for our own use.
> 
> The mechanical assembly was completely built in Pakistan giving the user a tank-like environment. Electronics team made their own circuits for interfacing the mechanics with software. Instructor has the option to construct his own environment using different terrains, enemy vehicles, tanks and objects.
> 
> I remember we were very fond of destroying arjuns....
> 
> We also developed ASTT(Action Speed Tactical Trainer) for Pak Navy which was an achievement of its own kind.


Gun Chamber

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## Manticore

Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey. --2006



> Undersecretariat for Defense industries website announced that Pakistan will join Turkish MBT project to develop state of the art Turkish Battle Tank.
> 
> After Otokar, FNSS, MKEK, ASELSAN and HAVELSAN, the Pakistani firm producing the Al Khalid MBT will transfer the technological support for the production of advanced passive armor.
> 
> The Al Khalid, known for it's unique feature of automatic target tracking system used by the Tank is from the French MBT Leclerc. No other tanks have this feature. I also know that about 100 delegation large, Turkish engineers, politicians and businessmen traveled to Pakistan to discuss about defensive cooperation.
> 
> It is clear that Turkey would develop it's MBT with Pakistani assistance.



SOner 80 was a turk defense expert, 


> "The Al Khalid, known for it's unique feature of automatic target tracking system used by the Tank is from the French MBT Leclerc. No other tanks have this feature. I also know that about 100 delegation large, Turkish engineers, politicians and businessmen traveled to Pakistan to discuss about defensive cooperation. It is clear that Turkey would develop it's MBT with Pakistani assistance. "



nabil


> Second generation evolved into........
> 1. type-85> 85II> 85 III (85IIAP)> t-88> 88C> Type 96, finally 96G...
> 
> 2. Third generation began from Type-90> 90II> 90IIM> MBT2000. What is needed to understand here is, Type 90 is a third gen mbt that has off springs in shape of mbt 2000, AK, type 98, 99, 99A, 99G etc. Now type 96 is still a second gen tank that is heavily revamped version of baseline type 85-II, III and eventually ended up as the most advanced SECOND Generation Chinese MBT type 96G.










BMS 





Category : Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)

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## Manticore

2004 pics
Fire Control System




Thermal Imager




















Ballistic Computer

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## Kompromat

@Antibody - please share this in R&R section too - thanks.

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## farhan_9909

SilentNinja said:


> *Ukrainian VARTA Active Threat Protection System (similar to Russian Shotra-1) to be integrated on Al-KhalidI/II*


 
Varta is already integrated on AL khalid I.which has entered into service a year back

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## Manticore

*sorry for deleting some posts , i need 7-8 posts in continouity to post the info , as the pics / post are restricted to 8 *



*
Pakistan Pushes Armor Upgrades
Emphasizes Self-Protection, Situational Awareness*
By Usman Ansari
Published: 20 April 2009


ISLAMABAD - Despite instability on its Afghan border and the growing threat of terrorism, Pakistan remains wedded to countering the existential threat from India. Therefore, improving conventional armor and mechanized warfare is still its primary focus as it strives for heavier tanks, broader situational awareness and greater self-protection.

The Pakistani main battle tank (MBT) fleet consists mainly of Chinese Type-59IIs upgraded to Al-Zarrar standard. This includes increased chemical/kinetic armor protection, thermal imaging sights, a new fire control system, a 125mm gun and an integrated battle management system (IBMS). The thermal imaging sights and the IBMS, which allow tanks within a formation to exchange target information, have increased detection and situational awareness capabilities, a cornerstone of the modernization efforts.

This is still viewed as a stopgap, however, with a new MBT considered the only viable long-term solution. The military also wants to move away from what are essentially first-generation Cold War MBTs to heavier tanks.

The indigenous Al-Khalid MBT program, which began entering service earlier in the decade, has experienced incremental upgrades, allowing it to fulfill this requirement for a heavier, more sophisticated vehicle.

According to defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium, "The initial order was for 300 Al-Khalid MBTs. While these tanks were being built and delivered at a rate of 50 per year, improvements were already being worked on for the next version, the Al-Khalid I."

This, according to Shabbir, has been undertaken by the Advanced Armoured Research, Development and Integration Complex, which was set up by the manufacturers of the Al-Khalid, Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). It is a dedicated body tasked with formulating upgrades for MBTs and other armored fighting vehicles. Shabbir said the Al-Khalid I is undergoing testing at HIT.

Shabbir claims the modifications made to the Al-Khalid I are mainly to electronic features, such as the fire control systems, the IBMS and sensors. "There are also improvements to physical features, such as side skirts, better track pads," he said.

Though electronic and other upgrades, such as increasing the rate of fire to nine rounds a minute, are not readily apparent, one visible modification is what HIT officials describe as the Active Threat Protection System. This is the Ukrainian "Varta'' electro-optical jammer, which bears a strong resemblance to the Russian/Ukrainian Shotra-1.

According to HIT, this system decoys anti-tank guided missiles and counters laser designators and range finders by causing false readings to disrupt tracking.

Another improvement is inclusion of a third-generation thermal imager from the French company Sagem. Night vision has been a traditional weakness of MBT fleets in South Asia, and both India and Pakistan are moving to rectify this shortcoming.

The Al-Khalid is also now fully air conditioned to resist summer temperatures in the southern deserts that can soar past 50 degrees Celsius (122 degrees Fahrenheit).

A further variant, termed the "Al-Khalid-II," is in its very early stages, and little information has been revealed.

However, Shabbir said the modular armor package is likely to be upgraded and the turret may feature a wedge shape, similar to that of the latest versions of the Chinese ZTZ-99/Type-99. Sensors and available ammunition types also are likely to be improved and the power-pack up-rated to a 1,500 horsepower unit, he added.

Efforts to increase situational awareness are not limited to modernization of the Al-Khalid. The Pakistani defense industry is developing a tactical reconnaissance capability to work in conjunction with armored units and be able to relay a local battlefield picture back to armored fighting vehicles within a formation over the IBMS. No officials were willing to comment publicly on such projects.

In the coming years, Pakistan's efforts to improve its armored quality and effectiveness through superior situational awareness are likely to become clearer. But at present, the public face of these efforts is improvements made to the Al-Khalid family of MBTs.








AK with a Shotra APS [Ukrainian version of Shtora infrared jammers known as Vatra (Guards) in Ukrainian.]?







Modified barrel for khalid tank, the one which was modified at HIT and diplayed at Ideas08 




nabil


> The gun looks like a standard Russian 2a46M1 series but actually it is not. It has been upgraded with Ukrainian KBA 3 48 caliber (6000 mm) series and is Chrome plated. In performance it is equal to Russia's latest 2a46M4 (as installed in t-90S) version which is slightly longer at 52 calibers (6600 mm). The KBA3 series is a very powerful gun and is preferred choice for Ukrainian BM Bulat (t-64 upgrade), t-80 ud, t-84 and the latest t-84 u main battle tanks.




*COMBINED DRIVERS NIGHT VISION SIGHT *


XYON said:


> Also add the COMBINED DRIVERS NIGHT VISION SIGHT or CODRIS-E in place of the replaceable standard driver day sight on the new Al-Khalid 1









*CREW BAY EXPLOSION, DETECTION AND SUPPRESSION SYSTEM*

A military vehicle is designed for strength, its armour affording protection to the crew and giving them the confidence to perform in battle. But the possibility remains that penetration of its fuel tanks or fuel and hydraulic lines can lead to a devastating fireball, causing severe burning and toxic gas poisoning within milliseconds. This threat inevitably affects crew morale and it is therefore important to give the crew a means of surviving in the battlefield environment. The crew bay system is able to sense the incipient hazard and recognise it as an explosive fire within 2-3ms and to effect complete suppression in approx 100ms. It uses fast response sensors and rapid acting high-rate discharge suppressors. Because suppression has taken place in a few tens of milliseconds, the radiation from the fireball is harmless, the temperature rise is minimal, the pressure increase is survivable and, most importantly, the amount of toxic gas generated is limited to safe levels. The vehicle and crew have survived to fight another day. Crew bay systems are fitted to a range of vehicles including Leopard 2, CRARRV, Tariq, Al-Khalid, Marconi Marksman, T90, Leclerc, M1A1, M1A2, LAV25, C1 Ariete MBT and Chunma amongst others.

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## Manticore

Usman Ansari takes a look at Pakistan&#8217;s indigenous main battle tank.

Due to the threat from its larger neighbour India, Pakistan continues to maintain a large fleet of MBTs (over 2,000), whilst elsewhere in the world their number is falling. The best tank currently in service is the indigenous Al-Khalid produced by Heavy Industries Taxila, (HIT). In terms of induction of new MBTs it is set to be one of the most significant MBTs in the coming decade. It is a development of the NORINCO (China North Industries Corporation), Type 90-II, which first made an appearance in 1990, and was itself a further manifestation of the Chinese requirement to field an MBT superior to the Russian T-72, (also India's main MBT). It featured substantial improvements in mobility, protection, and firepower over previous Chinese MBTs though still has a traditional MBT layout.


The Al-Khalid project is the culmination of a four part upgrade programme for Pakistan's MBT fleet. It entailed:

- Upgrade of the Type-59.

- Assembly and manufacture of the Type-69II.

- Co-production of the Type-85II.

- Production of an indigenous MBT design MBT 2000/Al-Khalid.


The Al-Khalid features a composite armour package over a welded hull. The hull front has lugs for additional armour, ERA plates and a self-entrenching mechanism. Some spare sections of track are also usually attached. A number of Pakistani companies offer detachable attachments such as track-width mine ploughs or 'rollers' (which have had some export success), compatible with the Al-Khalid but the self-entrenching mechanism seems to be the standard fit. The almost horizontal glacis plate is totally covered by large ERA plates. The driver is centrally seated under a one-piece hatch. He has use of three periscopes, the second of which can be fitted with a passive night sight.


The centrally located welded turret is similar to the Type-85 from which the Type-90II/Al-Khalid family is developed. The composite armour over the frontal arc is of modular assembly to enable replacement of damaged sections or simple upgrade to more a modern type as it becomes available. ERA plates are again added to the roof, front and sides to improve the armour and ballistic protection of the turret. The commander and gunner are seated on the right and left respectively. The commander has use of a 12.7mm with 500 rounds for AA use. There are six electrically fired grenade launchers for smoke and HE rounds, either side of the turret and a large stowage basket towards the rear, which usually houses the snorkel. A meteorological sensor is also fitted towards the rear of the turret roof to warn the crew if the tank is being 'lased' by an enemy.


The main gun is a 125mm smoothbore fitted with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor mid way down the barrel. It is reported to have a life of 500 rounds and has an attachment at the base to facilitate a quick field change. It is fed by a Russian type carousel auto-loader that holds 22 separate loading rounds ready for use. The rate of fire is up to eight rounds per minute. A total of 39 HEAT, APFSDS-T, and HE-FRAG rounds are carried in a mission dependent ratio. The APFSDS-T will penetrate 460mm of RHA at 2,000m, which is unsatisfactory. A POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factories) developed DU round called 'Naiza' is thought to also be in service with the T-80UD/T-84 MBT fleet, but whether this has been adopted for use with the Al-Khalid has not been made public. A coaxial 7.62mm with 3,000 rounds is also mounted. Though Pakistan has purchased the AT-11 'Sniper' ATGM from Belarus for use with the PA T-80UD/T-84s it is not know if it can be fired from the Al-Khalid.




For targeting the commander has use of a bi-axis stabilised panoramic sight whilst the gunner's bi-axis sight is roof mounted. Pakistan has recently imported 200 more modern Italian thermal imaging devices for the gunner, details of which are unavailable. The FCS is image stabilised and incorporates a laser range finder with the gunner's sight, crosswind, tilt and velocity sensor plus ballistic computer. Able to track targets whilst engaging others it also incorporates a Pakistani produced data-link to share information with other tanks in the formation. The commander can override commands to the main armament.


The engine, transmission and cooling system can be removed in thirty minutes for a quick field change. Though the British Perkins CV12-1200 (as fitted to the British Challenger series) was evaluated it failed to cope with the harsh conditions of the Pakistani desert. The engine eventually chosen was the Ukrainian 6TD-2 six-cylinder 1,200hp multi-fuel diesel as it was more compact and robust and is coupled to the French SESM-500 automatic transmission. The six dual wheels have rubber tyres and torsion bar suspension with the drive sprocket at the rear and the idler at the front. The track return rollers are usually covered by the side skirt, (the forward section of which can be covered with ERA plates). The rubber track pads are replaceable.


A full NBC system, crew bay and engine bay explosion/fire detection and suppression system, and infrared reflective paint are fitted as standard. It can lay its own smokescreen by injecting diesel into the exhaust at the rear.


A number of prototypes were made for evaluation and fall into four categories:


- Prototype 1: Chinese 125mm and auto-loader coupled to a Chinese FCS. The engine was a German MTU-396 diesel coupled to the LSG-3000 automatic transmission.


- Prototype 2: The same Chinese 125mm and auto-loader as 'P1' but coupled to a Western FCS. The engine was the Perkins 1200hp Condor diesel coupled to the French SESM-500 automatic transmission.


- Prototype 3: As 'P2' above but with a Ukrainian 6TDF diesel engine. This was type accepted into Pakistani service.


- Prototype 4: Designed primarily for export it has a NATO standard 120mm and Western FCS. It is powered by the German MTU-871/TCM AVDS-1790 diesel engine coupled to the LSG-3000 transmission.


Much emphasis is placed on agility and manoeuvrability. With a top speed of 70km/h and power to weight ration of 26.66hp/tonne it certainly fulfils that criteria. It also shares component commonality with the other MBTs in the PA arsenal (10 percent Type-59, 15 percent Type-69, and 20 percent Type-85), therefore helping to reduce running costs. Compared to the latest Western MBTs the Al-Khalid may lack their level of armour protection but is by no means under-armoured or unsuited for the modern battlefield. It's speed; agility and systems help ensure its survivability whilst its armament is powerful enough to deal with all potential opponents.


With 300 ordered for the PA production is currently running at fifty units per year but could easily be increased. The Al-Khalid has been heavily promoted in Pakistani defence shows such as IDEAS 2002, FUTURZ 2003 and IDEAS 2004 during the last few years which has seen the Al-Khalid and its stable mate the Al-Zarrar (an upgrade of the Type-59), receive much interest from potential customers. There has been considerable Saudi interest in the Al-Khalid during defence shows in Pakistan. The Saudis are looking to induct in the region of 100 new MBTs to replace their French AMX-30 tanks. Trials are to be carried out in Saudi Arabia in summer 2005 leaving HIT hopeful of it first MBT export order amid heavy lobbying in its favour. However, Ukrainian reluctance to supply the 6TDF diesel engine has meant the adoption of a German engine that does not generate the same high power/weight ratio as the Ukrainian one. For compatibility purposes the Saudis are likely to require a NATO standard 120mm main gun which can be supplied by POF. As it is in direct competition with other cheap export favourites such as the T-72 and T-80 series the unit price has to be competitive. Malaysia has already chosen the Polish PT-91 (a development of the T-72), rather than opt for the Al-Khalid.


Development is ongoing of the Al-Khalid II, (though the project name is actually 'Al-Khalid I'), which is targeted for production by 2008. It is unknown if there is to be any major change in the appearance of the tank. Key areas for improvement are said to be in the areas of armour protection by inclusion of more modern types of armour, and improved systems. This includes more efficient transmission system and modern night vision systems. A new electronic counter-measures fit is currently undergoing testing at HIT. Recently the possibility has arisen of using Ukraine's 6TD3 engine which generates 1500 hp though it remains to be seen if this shall be incorporated. Firepower is also to be upgraded if ongoing discussions for the Ukrainian 'Kombat' ATGM are successful. With a range of up to 5,000m it would give the Al-Khalid a useful reach against targets such as helicopters. Furthermore, an up-graded auto loader would enable the use of 'long-rod' ammunition as used by Western MBTs, as the Russian style unit cannot currently support them.


More details of developments are likely to be available during IDEAS-2006, as the bi-annual defence show is Pakistan's opportunity to be centre stage at a defence show.


With the Al-Khalid it finally looks like Pakistan has a tank capable of meeting both domestic and foreign needs enabling Pakistan to aim for a bigger slice of the lucrative global arms market.

An edited version of the above article appeared in the September 2005 issue of Classic Military Vehicle.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------




SilentNinja said:


> *Ukrainian VARTA Active Threat Protection System (similar to Russian Shotra-1) to be integrated on Al-KhalidI/II*



thankyou , silent ninja -- i would need help in expanding post 4

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## Manticore

HIT Al-Khalid

Notes: Also called the MBT-2000 (particularly during development), the Al-Khalid is touted as Pakistan&#8217;s first indigenous tank design, but is believed to incorporate much of its design from Type 90-IIs, Type 85s, and some other equipment supplied by China for analysis. Regardless of the origins of the Al-Khalid, it is essentially vehicle dissimilar enough to other tanks to be considered a new design, if not a completely independent one. The Al-Khalid was developed over the period from 1990-99, with production and fielding beginning in 2001. Most Western observers agree that the Al-Khalid is a surprisingly modern and effective design. Some 300 are in service with Pakistan, and they intend to being that total to 600. In addition, 22 Al-Khalids started being delivered to the Bangladeshi Army beginning in May 2008, and the Saudis are reportedly giving the Al-Khalid a hard look to supplement their M-1A2 Abrams tanks.

The design places the driver in the center front of the hull; he has a hatch which opens slightly upwards and to the left as to not interfere with turret rotation if the hatch is open. He has vision blocks giving him views to the right, left, and front; the frontal vision block can be replaced with an IR vision block. The gunner has his own hatch, as the Al-Khalid uses an autoloader instead of a loader crewmember, and has vision blocks that allow vision to the front, rear, and right side. The gunner is equipped with a full night vision suite, including a 2nd-generation thermal imager developed by France. The gunner also has an image intensification scope and a conventional telescopic sight; all of which are stabilized. The commander has his own thermal imager, image intensifier, and conventional telescopic sight, in a separate sensor head that gives the Al-Khalid a hunter-killer capability. The commander also has emergency controls for the main gun and coaxial machinegun. The Al-Khalid has a ballistic computer of French design, along with a laser designator of Chinese design.

The main gun is a version of the Chinese ZPT-98 gun, though the barrel has a length of 48 calibers. The gun is fed by an autoloader that has a capacity of 24 rounds, with additional ammunition being stored in the hull of the Al-Khalid. In addition to being able to fire indigenous and foreign 125mm rounds, the gun can also fire a Chinese license-produced version of 9M119 Reflecks (AT-11 Sniper) gun-launched ATGM. The autoloader is improved over that of the Al-Zarrar, able to handle newer long-rod penetrators. (ATGM rounds must be hand-loaded.) The laser rangefinder acts as a designator when the 9M119 ATGM is fired. The commander&#8217;s machinegun can be aimed and fired from under armor. On each side of the turret is a cluster of five smoke grenade launchers. The Al-Kalid has a feature found in most of the newest generation of tanks: a battle management system called Rabhar by the Pakistanis. This is a computerized system that not only monitors the state of the tank and feeds the appropriate information to the crew, but also plots the location of enemy and friendly units and keeps them updated as new information becomes available. It also passes orders from higher headquarters down and allows the commander to give orders to subordinate units, as well as providing any other intelligence and information the commander may require. This system also has GPS, with inertial navigation as a backup. The tank&#8217;s electronic systems are connected to large batteries for "silent watch" use.

In development, the Al-Khalid was powered by an MTU-396 diesel engine with a German LSG-3000 transmission. Germany placed an embargo on these items in the mid-1990s due to their stance on development of indigenous nuclear weapons, and this led to the Pakistanis fitting the Al-Khalid with a license-produced Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 1200-horsepower engine and a French SESM ESM-500 fully-automatic transmission. This engine had the virtue of being smaller than the German engine, yet provided the same 1200 horsepower. The Al-Khalid can carry auxiliary fuel tanks at the rear a la Russian/Chinese tanks, though in practice they are little used except in long road marches.

Armor protection is modular, allowing for quick battle damage repairs and improvement as more advanced armor becomes available or heavier armor is desired. Frontal armor is composite and of Pakistani design, with side armor being spaced; it is of a more modern design than that on the Al-Zarrar and lighter in weight. The turret front, turret sides, glacis, and hull sides have lugs for ERA. Attention was paid to land mine damage in the form of thickened floor armor. The ammunition is carried in armored bins, and virtually the entire vehicle has thick Kevlar anti-spalling blankets. The engine also has a thick bulkhead separating it from the crew compartment. An automatic explosion and fire suppression system is provided, and the crew has an NBC overpressure system; the engine compartment and ammunition bins have their own systems of the same sort. The Al-Khalid has a laser detection system that can automatically trigger smoke grenades to block the laser, and a radar warning system that can give the crew a chance to take evasive action. 

Pakistani Tanks

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## Manticore

Development of MBT-2000 (Al-Khalid)

An overview of Pakistan&#8217;s first indigenously designed and manufactured tank.

The MBT-2000 is a Pakistan-China project, which was initiated in 1990 for the joint development and manufacture of Tank AL-KHALID to meet the General Staff Requirement of Pakistan Army. Based on its strategic alliance with China, Pakistan decided to utilise Chinese infrastructure in the field of tank design/development. By adopting this approach, Pakistan Army aimed at developing a modern land system with minimum development expenditures in a reasonable time frame.

The development programme comprised a number of prototypes with following configurations:-

1.

Configuration-1 Based entirely on Chinese systems viz the Chinese 125mm gun and auto-loader, fire control system (FCS), gun control system (GCS) and powerpack. The powerpack comprised a 1200 HP engine manufactured in China based on MTU-396 series engine under licence from MTU Germany coupled with LSG-3000 automatic transmission.
2.

Configuration-2 Based on Chinese 125mm gun and auto-loader, the FCS, GCS and powerpack being of Western origin. The powerpack comprised Perkins 1200 HP Condor engine coupled with the French SESM-500 automatic transmission.
3.

Configuration-3 Based upon a 1200 HP powerpack from Ukraine whereas the gun, autoloader, FCS and GCS are of Chinese and western origin.
4.

Configuration-4 Based upon Western armament and powerpack comprising MTU-871/TCM AVDS-1790 engine with LSG-3000 transmission. This option did not materialise owing to difficulties in acquisition of these systems due to trade embargoes. 

During planning stage, a thorough technical evaluation of hydro-gas suspension and Rank-304 transmission was carried out, but these were not considered feasible due to problems associated with maintainability, reliability and other limitations. At the same time due to high ambient temperatures and dust in the operational areas, special emphasis was laid on design and installation of high capacity cooling and efficient air cleaning systems.

The strategy adopted by Pakistan for development of its MBT requirement has been successful. Over a period of nine years a number of prototypes in different configurations have been subjected to trials and evaluation in difficult terrain environments having ambient temperatures upto 55o C and desert conditions with very fine sand/dust particles. The users and technical experts are fully satisfied with the trials conducted during peak summers of 1998 in the southern desert of Pakistan and subsequently in different regions of the country presenting different terrain environments.

After successful completion of final evaluation, the pilot production of the tank in configuration-3 is already under progress at Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). HIT has already successfully undertaken manufacture of Chinese origin T-69IIMP/T-85I1AP tanks and US origin APC M113. It is understood that major up gradation and balancing of production lines has been underway at HIT for the last couple of years. This also includes establishment of CNC machining centres for precision machining of hull, turret and other critical parts to undertake manufacture of Al-KHALID.

HIT has been successful in developing special steel for tank guns and composite armour materials for use during series production. During successive trials, armour protection of the tank at hull and critical areas of the turret has been tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120/125 mm tank projectiles and other selected anti-tank ammunitions.

The development work of AL-KHALID programme has shown tremendous progress during the last ten years and AL-KHALID has matured as a modern contemporary tank at a fraction of the international cost. In this regard Pakistan has learnt a lot from the Indian experience on the ARJUN programme, which started in 1974, but the tank has still not achieved acceptability with the Indian Army.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/nov/mbt-2000.htm

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## Manticore

*
Towards Self-reliance in Armaments

Patron Lt Gen (Retd) Sardar F S LODI looks at the induction of Al-Khalid main battle tank in the Pakistan Army.*

July 20th 2001 was an important and significant day in the history of Pakistan&#8217;s defence effort when the first batch of 15 Al-Khalid main battle tanks after lengthy factory and user trials were handed over to the Pakistan Army at a simple and dignified ceremony at Taxila. The tanks were issued to the 31st Cavalry Regiment of Pakistan&#8217;s Armoured Corps. President General Pervez Musharraf was the chief guest at this historic and proud moment. He addressed the assembled guests who included cabinet ministers, high-ranking civil and military officers and the diplomatic corps. The President said that although Pakistan is a peace-loving country and has always worked for stability in the region it cannot lower its guard and must posses a deterrent force required to thwart any misadventure by its adversaries.

The President went on to say that Pakistan&#8217;s efforts for peace and stability in the region would not be at the cost of security. The government he said would provide all possible resources to ensure a strong defence for a stable Pakistan. Being a developing country, the president said, it was important for Pakistan to find cost-effective solutions and to develop indigenous manufacturing capability to meet defence needs. The Armed Forces, he said, were committed to safeguarding the frontiers of the country and were constantly engaged in preparing themselves to meet all possible threats. But wars today were fought not just by the Armed Forces. The whole nation is required to engage in economic, scientific, political and social endeavours and to promote production in all conceivable fields.

President Musharraf felt that the achievements made in the field of defence production should be noted and utilized to improve the economy and meet the development needs of the nation. Over the years, he said, the nation had made sacrifices for setting up defence production facilities and it was time now to start getting dividends. &#8220;The defence industry must diversify itself and promote export of defence equipment,&#8221; the President said. He called it an auspicious day to witness the maturity of a project conceived 10 years ago.

An amount of $20 million was spent on the indigenous development of Al-Khalid main battle tank, spread over a period of eight years. This shows the low development costs of the tank. As a comparison it must be noted that our neighbour India has invested over $500 million on its Arjun tank which is still not in production. President Musharraf noted that the highest power to weight ratio had given Al-Khalid tank an agility, which can be matched only by the German Leopard tank. Al-Khalid carries a 125mm smooth bore gun, which can destroy enemy armour at long ranges. Composite materials and explosive reactive armour provide protection to the crew against a variety of anti-tank weapons. Its ability to automatically track targets is available only in the French Leclerc tank. With Hunter Killer day-night sight and a state-of-the-art fire control system, Al-Khalid is truly a world class tank, said the President of Pakistan.

Al-Khalid main battle tank is the result of a joint development project between HIT (Heavy Industries Taxila) of Pakistan and NORINCO (North Industries Corporation) of China. It has a combat weight of 46 tons and carries a crew of three. Fitted with a 1200 HP water-cooled diesel engine, which gives it a maximum speed of 65 to 70 km an hour with acceleration from 0-32km in 10 seconds. It has a 125mm smooth bore main gun equipped with a dynamic muzzle reference system and supported by a 7.62mm co-axial machine gun and a 12.7mm remote firing anti-aircraft gun. The power to weight ratio is 26 horsepower per ton, enhancing the tank&#8217;s agility. Al-Khalid&#8217;s combat range is 400 kilometres which expands its operational range with minimum logistic support. The thermal night vision devices enable the tank crew to fight at night as well.

Chairman of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) Lt. General Hamid Javed, himself a cavalry officer and familiar with the user requirements, said the factory has a capacity of producing 100 Al-Khalid tanks a year to meet the needs of national defence. At present, however, 50 tanks per year will be manufactured as required by the Pakistan Army. He said, if a friendly country placed an order for the tank the HIT would be able to meet the demand. General Javed pointed out that some Muslim countries had already shown keen interest in Al-Khalid tank. At present the country&#8217;s armament industries export weapons and military hardware worth $150-200 million every year. Now with indigenously produced high tech products at competitive prices, the export potential of the country should increase considerably.

Foreign military journals of repute have given Al-Khalid tank good reviews. Journal of Military Ordinance in its March 2001 issue writes. &#8220;One of the highlights of the show was the Al-Khalid main battle tank that is the result of co-operation between Pakistan and China. Fairly lightweight by Western standards at 46-tons, the Al-Khalid carries a 125mm smoothbore main gun of Chinese design. The fire control system for the main gun includes an image-stabilised dual magnification gunner&#8217;s sight, a panoramic commander&#8217;s sight, and a thermal imager. The fire control system also employs an autotracker. The vehicle carries 7.62mm co-axial and 12.7 anti-aircraft machine guns. Additionally, it is equipped with grenade launchers on each side of the turret that carry twelve smoke and four high explosive grenades.&#8221;

The journal goes on to say, &#8220;The Al-Khalid is powered by the 1,200 horsepower Ukrainian 6TDF diesel engine that generates 26-horsepower per ton. This allows the tank to reach a maximum speed of over sixty-five kilometers per hour and to accelerate from 0-32 kilometers per hour in less than ten seconds. The Al-Khalid has a maximum cruising range of 400 kilometers. Six prototypes of the Al-Khalid have been tested over the last ten years. From these six prototypes, four basic configurations have emerged.&#8221;

Jane&#8217;s Armour and Artillery journal edited by Christopher F. Foss describes the Al-Khalid tank as follows: &#8220;Layout of the tank is conventional, with the driver&#8217;s compartment in the front, turret in the centre and the power pack at the rear. The turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470mm. The armour is of modular design enabling the user to change the damaged modules or replace the existing models with new armour packages as the threat evolves or as new technology becomes available.&#8221;

Jane&#8217;s goes on to say. &#8220;Main armament is a 125mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. This can fire APFSDS (muzzle velocity 1,760 m/s), HEAT (muzzle velocity 850m/s) and HE-FRAG (muzzle velocity 950 m/s). It can also fire a laser guided projectile fitted with a HEAT warhead. The gun is fed by an automatic loader enabling the crew to be reduced to three &#8212; commander, gunner and driver.&#8221;

&#8220;The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunners sight, bi-axis stabilised commanders sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander&#8217;s control panel, laser range-finder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor. This allows the Al-Khalid tank to engage moving targets under day and night conditions. The complete power pack, which consists of the engine, transmission and cooling system, can be removed from the vehicle in 30 minutes to facilitate field replacement.&#8221;

The Hindustan Times newspaper of August 13 had this to say: &#8220;Let me begin with the Al-Khalid tank. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that it is an armoured corps commander&#8217;s dream. In its offensive capabilities and speed on level ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army&#8217;s most up-to-date GSQR (General Staff Quality Requirement) for India&#8217;s MBT (Main Battle Tank) project more than a decade ago (16 years). More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India&#8217;s mainstay, the T-72 tanks cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability). The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabout against the Arjun&#8217;s 55 tons (Indian tank under development for the past 16 years). This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit.&#8221;

Al-Khalid tank is an outcome of very tough efforts during the last eight years resulting in a very modern tank for the Pakistan Army, said the dynamic chairman of Heavy Industries Taxila, Lt. General Hamid Javaid. He said Al-Khalid is an ideal blend of mobility, firepower and protection and its high agility and obstacle crossing capability. The final product is the outcome of dedication and selfless devotion to duty displayed by the Chairman and his team of officers both in uniform and mufti. The nation is proud of their achievements and hold them in high esteem.
Towards Self-reliance in Armaments - Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR F.S. LODI

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## Manticore

KMDB - Tank Power Pack with 6TD-2 Engine


The power pack with 1,200 hp 6TD-2 engine and reversive side gearboxes ensures tank movement in any climatic conditions, including ambient air temperature of up to +55°C and extreme dusty conditions, without any degradation in mobility characteristics. The power pack is compact, reliable, easy in maintenance and operation.


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## Manticore

*Requirements met by al-khalid*


KSA had in principle agreed to buy 150 Al-Khalid tanks worth $600 million. All trails are COMPLETED and some modification have already made to Al-Khalid. (current Al Khalid)

1- Trials at 55 C were successful with very fine dust not making any impediment on the engine and performance of the tank. (not many Indian Tanks have achieved that)

2- Turret power control now is all electrically controlled backed by manual control (KSA)

3- A new European Renk LSG 3000 transmission has been incorporated (KSA) (SESM 500 for Pak)

4- There is some type of &#8216;special&#8217; armor has been installed. During trails this &#8216;special&#8217; armor (on the hull and turret) tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120 & 125 mm tank projectiles. (PA & KSA) (this is the armor is was talking about)

5- Modifications have been completed which resulted in increasing the 125 mm rounds from 39 to 49

6- Ammo storage for 12.7 & 7.62 mm has increased from 1,000 to 1,500 and 4,000 to 7,100 rounds respectively, thus, making Al-Khalid the most heavily weaponized tank in the world.

7- The power pack (engine, transmission & cooling system) can be removed in 30 minutes and reinstalled in 35 minutes.

8- KSA Al-Khalid will be equipped with (PA also), IBMS (PA also), and active threat-protection system.



Peru's requirements were:

1) Capability of withstanding modern ammo fired by 120L55 from distances higher than 2000 meters.
2) Acceptable capability of resisting a Spike hit.
3) Capability of tracking and destroying a Leo-2A6 from 2800 meters in all weather conditions.
4) Delivery of tanks within a year.

[/QUOTE]

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## Manticore

a diagram comparing the current MBT-2000/VT-1A turret with Type 99-ish add-on armour (last one) to the several Type 99 versions.





nabil-


> The turret is more spacious than any t-64/80/90 variant and this has allowed for additional weapon carriage. The Pakistani tank crew rates mbt 2000/ Al Khalid very highly in terms of performance, survivability, crew comfort and electronics. They prefer AL Khalid over T-80 or any other mbt in service.
> 
> *
> alkhalid vs mbt2000 by nabil*
> 
> 
> I have been following Chinese and Pakistani military developments for many years now and i can tell you that Peru have had a very good deal in mbt 2000/vt1-a. This history goes back to 1990 when China built their first third generation mbt under the designation type 90 II. The initial version did not fulfill their requirements but Pakistan had a close look at it and recommended many modifications for it especially fire control system and the power plant hence it emerged as the type 90 IIM. Pakistan began to invest in the project more than $20 million dollars with radical enhancements in fore control, optics, gun, tracks and the engine. They are manufacturing it indeginously in Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). The actual type 90 II and present Al Khalid/ mbt 2000 are radically different mbts having only external similarities. The engine is Ukrainian 6td-2 developing 1200 hp diesel engine coupled with sesm esm 500 automatic transmission, automatic tracking facility (as in french leclerc), a powerful western fire control system with ballistic computer, Sagem matis third generation thermal imager, 125 mm auto frettaged chrome plated smoothbore gun (48 cal), full electric controlled turret function, remote firing capability with the hatch closed, gps and ins functions, water fording upto 5 meters with preperation, indeginouly developed ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat detector that can detect all kinds of laser threats and warns the tank crew within milli seconds, Fully 360 turn capability, Panoramic hunter killer sighting system, Battlefield Management System with active datalink for all tanks as well as other vehicles nearby and new armor that was developed with Ukrainian and Chinese co-orporation that defeated all types of conventional tank ammunition. Remember that Pakistan already has the Ukrainian T-80 ud tanks that were bought as a stop gap measure until Al Khalid was inducted. India bought the T-90S mbts to counter the T80s and Al Khalids but now they are going to buy improved T90 M to counter Al Khalid after realizing that their Arjun is far from induction and Al Khalid in current form is more than a match for T-90S.








*Russian translation about MBT 2000/ Al Khalid.*


> Pakistan's new tank near China 99G
> 
> According to the Russian armored vehicles, net October 9 reported that Pakistan's military plans for its fleet of "Ali Vivienne" main battle tank to conduct a comprehensive improvement, including the installation of more sophisticated fire control systems, and optoelectronic countermeasures systems. Pakistani military experts believe that the move will significantly upgrade the tank first-hit targets.
> 
> It is learned that, in order to enhance "Ali Vivienne" tank night fighting capabilities, the Pakistani side will install the French Sagem company's third-generation thermal imaging discussion. In addition, the tank main guns of the firing rate would be raised.
> 
> In addition, the Pakistani military also plans to Ukraine Order "VARTA" type optoelectronic countermeasures devices (from Russian "curtain" system evolved). After the installation of the equipment can significantly enhance the tank in the event of a half-led guided weapons to attack the enemy when the survival rate.
> 
> Should be noted that the Russian side has suggested India to buy Russian-made tanks for the military installation of the "curtain" system, but it was the latter refused.
> 
> At the same time, taking into account the summer desert areas in Pakistan when the surface temperature may reach 50 degrees Celsius, Pakistani military also plans to "Ali Vivienne" tank installation of high efficiency air conditioning. In addition, tanks installed within the display system will also be replaced.
> 
> In addition to improving the existing fleet of tanks, the Pakistanis also in the process develop a new generation of "Ali Vivienne II" main battle tanks. New tanks will be equipped with more powerful main gun fire, while defense capability will be more complete. Expect, "Ali Vivienne II" will be closer to China in the form of 99G. In addition, "Ali LEADER II" of the mobility will also be stronger, its engine power to reach 1500 hp.
> 
> "Ali Vivienne" is Pakistan's help in China and Ukraine developed a more advanced main battle tank, based on the former Soviet Union developed T-72. The tank full weight 48 tons, member 3, the main weapons include a 125 mm smoothbore gun, one 12.7 mm and a 7.62 mm caliber machine gun.
> 
> The tank fitted with a 1,200-horsepower power system of Ukraine 6TD-2 engines, a maximum speed of 70 km / h, and sustainable travel 400 kilometers. It is said that at present, "Ali Vivienne" tank production has reached 300


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## Manticore

*senior members ,this is not 'anther' alkhalid thread , rather it will pool and unify data under 1 thread , for quick access

please dont ask questions here as this thread would ultimately end up spammed to 30 pages full of comparisons without any info , that way, thus defeating the purpose of this thread! *

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## Manticore

Type 90 






http://translate.google.com.pk/tran...lla:en-US:official&biw=1322&bih=622&prmd=ivns


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## Manticore

Al-Khalid tank


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## Desert Fox

*Al-Khalid I*



> *Originally posted by Adios Amigo*
> 
> Dear fellows! Back in 2008, XYON and Bezerk, Our Tank Gurus on PDF broke the news that Al-Khalid I was near its completion, and they even brought out the Images of AK-I prototype directly from HIT. here are those pictures to refresh your memories,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are a few modifications in the exterior of the tank, such as side skirts etc etc. But internally a lot of improvements have been made and there is a marked difference between Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid I. Bare in mind all the current Al-Khalid will go through AK-I upgrades.
> 
> The tank shown here is yet to be painted and covered with ERA kits & a other few vital combat systems
> 
> According to XYON,"*It is equipped with a more powerful Ukrainian 1200HP engine and a few other gimmicks such as the IBMS, dual DNVS, most likely an LTS, etc etc. Initially it was planned to display the AK-I at the IDEAS 2008 but later it was dropped*".
> 
> On February 24, 2010, General Tariq Majeed CJCSC, Visited Heavy Industries Texila(HIT). The video released shows Al-Khalid I in action for the first time, Fully painted and in ready to be delivered form. From 0.42- 0.52 Al-Khalid-I is shown in action, enjoy

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## Rafi

One of the most significant things about the Khalid upgrade is the comprehensive air conditioning, in summer closing the hatches is unbearable if you have no AC - I have also heard about personal cooling kits being introduced to tankers.

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## houshanghai

bcz Ukraine refused to furnish engine, peru gave up Chinese MBT-2000 and bought Ukrainian tank at last.chinese tank engine(1200) is mature completely in present.but expensive than Ukrainian engine.so chinese MBT-2000 always used Ukrainian engine for cost.
but for it all Chineses MBT-2000 will use new domestic tank engine(1200) so as to export 
Chinese MBT-2000 will not have the future of Ukrainian engine .

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## Manticore

the reason i have indirectly mentioned the sales was actually post the requirements of different countries, which alkhalid met-- the end choice fell through politically in the case of s.a



> Pakistan's Al Khalid Tank, widely considered one of the most competent Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) in the global arms market, has received an update, according to GrandeStrategy sources. This new version of Al-Khalid is said to be ready for production, although orders are yet to be placed for production to begin. The Al Khalid II is said to have a new armor that has been tested to defeat all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. This "special" armor is a major technological breakthrough for Pakistan. The tank has received a new transmission and revised electronic turret control.
> 
> 
> The Al Khalid II has a new Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and active threat-protection system, the latter being an upgrade from the passive system in the earlier model. The tank is now perhaps the most heavily weaponized per tonnage of any tank, being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.
> 
> Rumors suggest that Saudi Arabia is ready to procure the Al Khalid II but not going through with the deal because of differences with the political administration in Pakistan. Rumors also indicate that these relate to the kickbacks demanded by Pakistan's infamously corrupt President Asif Zardari, nicknamed "Mr.10%".



.


nabil_05 said:


> The specifications surfaced about T-90S were nothing special so much so that T-80ud was better in some aspects like a more reliable engine, ballistic computer and so on. To say the AK=T-90S is like saying T-80ud=AK which is far from truth. Yes the Russians have been making tanks fro more than 70 years and have earned tremendous capabilities in tank design but their tank do suffer by some basic design limitations which has been highlighted time and again. An example is T-90S and even M model where tank crew not only have a crampy interior but lack of Panoramic vision, a Battle Management System and even datalink ability which limits its battle field awareness, hence survivability. One wonders why India took delivery of the same MBT but in three different versions that too in a span of less than 8 years?? Its not just upgrading, rather rectifying issues surfacing in each version from S to M to AM. Having no intentions to degrade Russian engineering and technological expertise, both T-80 and T-90 have K-5 armor and a powerful 125 mm main gun which is among the best out there.

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## Arsalan

a very nice and informative thread indeed but there is a slight problem.
we already have threads running on Al-Kalid tank. creating a new thread creat lot of trouble as the information is scattred in multiple threads and also many thing are repeated over and over again.

i will suggest that we MODs must merge this with:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/29568-pakistans-al-khalid-tank-gets-updated-2.html

this will add to infomration already existing on the thread and will help in compiling the required info at one place.
there are over a dozen threads running on Al-Khalid! 

thanks and best regards!


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## Manticore

* This is a non spam , non disscussion thread , to pool informative data from hundreds of alkhalid threads -- THIS IS NOT ANOTHER ALKHALID THREAD -- I urge senior members to pool data if they can , as i have gone through quite a lot of threads and sites to pool this data for you guys , who just want the info , without going through hundreds of pages of discussions

think of this thread as on the lines of jft info pool thread

regards
*

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## Dazzler

unlike a common belief of AK being a light mbt, it has a thick layer of Kevlar armor covering almost all the vehicle particularly the floor area. During AK-1 mine explosion tests, this armor proved to be very efficient causing no losses of any sort and increasing crew confidence. It is a modified version of AV-8 armor developed in house.

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## mughaljee

Sir, ANTIBODY
I think every every information till now relating to Al-Khalid has been posted.
what i could share ?  any how many thanks for such information .

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## SBD-3

nice thread antibody .... You're the man!


> *Locally-produced gun delivered to HIT for tanks*
> By Kalbe Ali | From the Newspaper
> 
> ISLAMABAD, April 17: The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks
> 
> So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre `blanks` from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.
> 
> The first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army  the end-user.
> 
> An HIT official told Dawn that the army had given a go-ahead for the production of 50 125mm barrels for the two MBTs at the HMC after a joint team assured it of meeting strict standards.
> 
> According to sources, the army and the HIT wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a minute, and for the automatic ammunition handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire magazine of Al-Khalid tank.
> 
> The official said that the manufacturing of the first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the Strategic Plans Division (SPD) set up in 2000 to improve the control of nuclear operations and monitor and develop coordination among various defence production and research organisations in the country.
> 
> The specialised weapons grade steel was manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities under the heavy forge and foundry section. The block of specialised metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel.
> 
> The HMC also has specialised facilities of large vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat treatments several times. Since it was the first job for the HMC, experts from other defence organisations monitored the process which took almost two to three months to complete.
> 
> The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50 barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel procured from France.
> 
> The official said that after the completion of 50 tank barrels, the HMC would consider producing artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.
> 
> Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59 tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and III now under way at the HIT.
> Locally-produced gun delivered to HIT for tanks | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


Some information on AK-1 by XYON


> I did post this photo in one of my posts earlier in the AK-II discussions here! I though you got it from there! Where did you get this photo if not from my post? Just curious!
> 
> Not divulging into some critical changes owing to security, I can say that lessons learned from AK are being improved in AK-I. The biggest improvement is in the engine, a more modern FCS (French is being considered), locally developed IBMS, driver night vision sight (larger FoV), improved track and track pads options, improved Laser Threat Sensors more accurate gun laying, improved side skirts etc etc.
> 
> The program however is moving slow these days owing mainly to restricted funding from GoP & change in the HIT top leadership. The AK-1 is yet to be handed over to PA for trials. This was to be done in December 2008, but it has been delayed by a few months owing to completion of a few upgrades etc.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...ough-testing-stages-hit-image.html#post298859


and Interestingly


> In February 2002 Ukraine announced that the Malyshev plant would provide another 315 engines for Al-Khalid tanks over three years. The contract's estimated value was $125-150 million. Pakistan's Army reportedly hopes to produce a total of 300 more tanks by 2005. According to a 2001 report, Pakistan planned to add another 300 indigenous Al-Khalid tanks to its armoured corps by 2007.
> 
> *Ukraine is a key partner in the production of the Al-Khalid tank which is a joint venture between China, Pakistan and Ukraine*. Ukraine is also providing assistance to Pakistan in the Upgrade/Re-Build its T-59 tanks to the Al-Zarar Configuration, which is intended to match the T-80UD tanks.
> 
> Ukraine possesses one of the most reliable tank engines in the conditions of hot climate. It is the result of the strategy of tank building development. At one time Ukraine and Russia, as two great tank powers, took two different ways of tank engine development. Ukrainian constructors chose the Diesel direction, while Russian ones the gas turbine, like many other countries. Now, according to the words of the chief designer of Ukraine armored troops, head of the Kharkov machine-building design office lieutenant general Mikhail Borisyuk, when the principal prominent buyers of armored equipment are located in countries with hot climate, the stability of engines with the ambient air temperature higher than 50 degrees has become one of the key factors for tanks reliability. In the extreme conditions of hot climate gas-turbine engines of China and Poland, created on the base of B-1, B-2 engine types, Russian engines, having had serious problems during testing in India, started to receive transient errors. At the same time Ukrainian engines on the tanks T-80UD, provided to Pakistan, showed high reliability.
> 
> On September 23, 2004, Pakistan received an additional consignment of Al-Khalid MBTs. The Al-Khalid MBT has a combat weight of 46 tons and carries a crew of three. It had a combat range of 400Km and is fitted with thermal night-vision devices. It is powered by a 1200 HP water-cooled diesel engine and has a maximum speed of 65-70Km/hr with an acceleration of 0-32Km/hr in 10 seconds. It's armor is made of composite material as well as explosive reactive armor.
> 
> Al Khalid MBT-2000 / Type 2000 Main Battle Tank - PakTribune

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## SBD-3

VT1A main battle tank, a twin young brother of Al-Khalid MBT?
September.15 (China Defense Mashup reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- After the latest MBT-2000 tank for Pakistan, another new armor combat vehicle, called-as VT1A main battle tank, now has been opened by one Chinese magazine "Ordnance Knowledge", which has been known as a state-run magazine under NORINCO Group.
The magazine announced that VT1A tank can be exported to foreign countries and provides some specifications:

Full Weight: 49 tons
Height: 2.4 meters (up to turret top)
Width: 3.5 meters
Length: 10.33 meters (gun forward)
Crew number: 3 (with autoloader)

Power: 1200 hp water-cooled turbocharged diesel engine
Power-weight ratio: 24 hp/ton
Maximum highway speed: 69 km/h
Max operational range: 450 km
Armament: 125 mm smoothbore gun, 7.62 parallel machine guns, 12.7 antiaircraft machine gun
Maintainability: integrated power system
Fire Control System: scan-targeting type.
Protection: Main armor + modular composite reactive armor

So, the next is the question why this VT1A tank looks so similar to Pakistan Al-Khalid MBT?

An evolution of Chinese and Soviet tanks, the Al-Khalid's final tank design resulting from a decade of co-operative development was designated Type 90-IIM. Chinese company Norinco showed the new Type 90-IIM during the March 2001 Abu Dhabi Defense Expo, under the export name MBT 2000. The version powered by the Ukrainian engine, intended for domestic production in Pakistan, was named Al-Khalid. For this achievement, *Pakistan spent more than US$20 million over ten years on the co-development of a model suitable for their needs and on creating a capability to manufacture it locally*.

But the appearance of VT1A tank just indicates that NORINCO wants to provide MBT 2000 technology for other developing countries, such as Sri Lanka. But Pakistan would get its payment for the selling of this twin young brother of Al-Khalid MBT?

VT1A main battle tank, a twin young brother of Al-Khalid MBT? | China Military Power Mashup

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## SBD-3

Al-Khalid
On 1 October 1988, it was announced that Pakistan would manufacture a new MBT (MBT 2000) with the assistance of the People's Republic of China and with the Heavy Rebuild Factories in Pakistan carrying out the programme. 

The project was approved by the Defence Committee of the Cabinet on 16 January 1990 and the contract with China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) was signed in May 1990. 

Rather than build a new MBT from scratch, Pakistan elected a four-phased approach: 

(1) Upgrade the existing Type 59 MBT. Some of these have been fitted with a 105 mm rifled tank gun and are then known as the T-59(M). Details of the Type 59 are given under China 

(2) Assembly/manufacture of the Type 69-II MBT; this has 50 per cent of its components from the Type 59 and 50 per cent new components. Production ofType69-ll hulls commenced in Pakistan in 1993 with the turrets still coming from China. The Pakistan designation is the Type 69-IIMP with the engine developing 580 hp. Details of the Type 69 are given under China 

(3) Co-production and manufacture of the Type 85 MBT; this has 20 per cent components from the Type 59, 30 per cent components from the Type 69-II MBT and 50 per cent new components. Co-production of the Type 85 has now commenced and a batch of these vehicles has already been supplied from China. In Pakistan service these are designated the Type 85-IIAP. Details of the Type 85 are given under China 

(4) Production of the MBT 2000 with 45 per cent of its components taken from existing vehicles (10 per cent Type 59, 15 per cent Type 69-II and 20 per cent Type 85) and 55 per cent new components. 

The Heavy Rebuild Factory (HRF) at Taxila, also known as P-711, has been established and running for some time. It was then decided to build additional facilities for specific components: P-882 All types of AFV hull P-883 All types of turret P-884 All types of engine from 520 to 1,500 hp P-885 Progressive manufacture of guns from 

105 mm to 203 mm P-886 Flexible machining centre 

The first prototype of MBT 2000, which is also referred to as the Al-Khalid or P-90, was completed on schedule in June 1991, with trials being carried out in 1992. 

When production does eventually start, it is expected to be at a low level and eventually increase to around 200 vehicles a year. 

It is expected that initially 65 to 70 per cent of the key components will be made in Pakistan, 20 to 25 per cent will be supplied by China and the remainder will come from other countries. 

Early in 1994, it was disclosed that Perkins Engines Company of the UK had completed tests of a new integrated power pack for an MBT in the 50 tonne range and this was believed to be for the MBT 2000 project. Two power packs were supplied under contract to Pakistan. 

This power pack consisted of a Perkins Engines Company CV-12 diesel developing 1,200 hp (as installed in the Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 MBTs) coupled to the French SESM ESM 500 automatic transmission (as installed in the Leclerc MBT used by the French Army). This power pack has also been installed in prototypes of the NORINCO Type 90-II MBT which is understood to be the Chinese designation for the MBT 2000 (Al-Khalid). 

By early 1999 there was no firm date as to when the MBT 2000 would enter volume production. The decision to procure 320 T-80UD MBTs from the Ukraine (please see separate entry) is understood to have taken place because of the delays in the MBT 2000 programme. 

Pakistan Ordnance Factories is now making 125 mm ammunition (projectile and charge) for the 125 mm smooth bore gun installed in the Chinese Type 85-IIAP and the Ukrainian T-80UD. 

Late in 1998 the Ukrainian DINAU news agency in the Ukraine stated that the Malyshev Plant in Kiev had started work on the technical aspects of a joint Ukrainian/Pakistan/Chinese Main Battle Tank (MBT). 

The feasibility of this project is said to have been discussed during a visit to the Malyshev Plant by a military delegation from Pakistan. 

It is possible that 125 mm armed turrets supplied by NORINCO will be integrated in Pakistan with the chassis supplied by the Malyshev Plant. 

Description 

The layout of the MBT 2000 is conventional, with the driver's compartment at the front, turret in the centre and the power pack at the rear. In many respects the MBT 2000 appears to be almost identical to the Chinese NORINCO Type 90-II MBT. 

The turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm. 

The armour is of modular design enabling the userto change the damaged modules or replace the existing models with new armour packages as the threat evolves or as new technology becomes available. 

Main armament is a 125 mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. This can fire APFSDS (muzzle velocity 1,760 m/s), HEAT (muzzle velocity 850 m/s) and HE-FRAG (muzzle velocity 950 m/s). The gun is fed by an automatic loader enabling the crew to be reduced to three - commander, gunner and driver. 

A 7.62 mm machine gun is mounted coaxially with the main armament and a 12.7 mm machine gun is mounted on the roof for anti-aircraft and local defence. Mounted either side of the turret, towards the rear, is a bank of four electrically operated forward-firing smoke grenade dischargers. A turret basket is provided at the rear. 

The computerised fire-control system includes a stabilised range-finder sight, computer, commander's control panel, laser range-finder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor. This allows the MBT 2000 to engage moving targets under day and night conditions. 

The complete power pack, which consists of the engine, transmission and cooling system, can be removed from the vehicle in 30 minutes to facilitate field replacement. Prototype diesel engines develop 1,200 hp but it is hoped to install 1,500 hp engines at a later date. 

Suspension is of the torsion bar type with six large dual rubber-tyred roadwheels, idler at the front, drive sprocket at the rear and track-return rollers. The upper part of the suspension is covered by a track skirt with a wavy lower part. 


Variants 

There are no known variants of the MBT 2000. 






Specifications 
Property Value 
Crew 3 
Weight (kg) 48000 
Length (mm) 6900 
Trench (mm) 3400 
Height (mm) 2300 
Max. road speed (km/h) 62 
Max. road range (km) 400 
Vertical obstacle (mm) 850 
Trench (mm) 3000 
Gradient (%) 60 
Engine power output (h.p.) 1200 
Number of forward gears 7 
Number of reverse gears 3 
Main weapon caliber (mm) 125 
Auxiliary gun calibre (mm) 7.62 
AA gun caliber (mm) 12.7 
Ammunition of the main gun 39 
Planes of gun stabilization 2 



Has folowing part: 
Part Amount 
6TD-2 (Power pack) 1 
? (Running gear) 1 


Al-Khalid Quantities: 
Country Quantity 
PAKISTAN 300 
Total: 300 
Army Guide - Al-Khalid, Main battle tank

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## Arsalan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> a very nice and informative thread indeed but there is a slight problem.
> we already have threads running on Al-Kalid tank. creating a new thread creat lot of trouble as the information is scattred in multiple threads and also many thing are repeated over and over again.
> 
> i will suggest that we MODs must merge this with:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/29568-pakistans-al-khalid-tank-gets-updated-2.html
> 
> this will add to infomration already existing on the thread and will help in compiling the required info at one place.
> there are over a dozen threads running on Al-Khalid!
> 
> thanks and best regards!



just to clarify my above post, i dodnt meant to disrespect this thread in anyway. i really belive that this is priceless information and realy good stuff being put up here by ANTIBODY. my point was that multiple threads must be merged.

anyways, to add something regarding Al-Khalid future, it is bright. the Al-Khalid 2 has been worked on and all pre-production work/research is complete. however, HIT do not plan to start production anytime soon. reason being Al-Khalid 1 succes and finincial issues. PA is more then satisfied with the AK-1 performance. at present it is the most heavily weaponized per tonnage tank in the world and have the fire power to beat any type or armour. on defensive grounds, the newly and indegeniously developed armour is also great and givis sufficient protection to men in machine. AK-2 will start rolling only when the adversay comes up with somthing much more potent then they currently have. this is one reason that nothing much is know about the Ak-2.

thanks and best regards!

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## Arsalan

for locally produced Gun, it is being made in HMC. My father is part of project and this Gun is something with no internation links. i will have some inside info regarding the gun material and power but have to talk to Dad before posting that and the pics.
have visited the facility many times, one thing that might intrest you is that it is tested (prior to delivery) in much sever conditions then it will face of battle field (temprature, pressure and dust mainly).
HIT asked for intensive testing and it is claimed to be the most vigourously tested smooth bore gun!

regards!

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## Aamir Hussain

I for one think that ABody has the right idea to pool all available info. on AK in a resource pool. Good work ABody!!!

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## Manticore

thankyou sir! ive just noted the peruvian forums have done quite a bit of info pooling to defend the vta vs the leopard-- but the info is in spanish and most of the old generation equipement in ak has been replaced by western stuff , so our ak would be at a far better position than the vta

tank protection level
Tank Protection Levels

Al Khalid	

vs KE (mm)
Turret: 645 
Glacis: 435-455

vs CE (mm)
Turret: 1060 (1160 w/ERA)
Glacis: 540 (670w/ERA)

AT Round penetration estimates:
Pakistani Niaza 125mm DU 550mm at 2km







naiza DU round

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## Arsalan

*Integrated Battlefield Management System*
The tank is equipped with the "Integrated Battlefield Management System" (IBMS), named 'Rehbar', a digital communications system developed domestically by HIT and CARE (Centre for Advanced Research in Engineering).It comprises a flat-screen display mounted inside the tank which communicates with those of other vehicles, including command posts such as the HIT Sakb. It uses a data-link to facilitate secure communication of battlefield information between units, including tank video footage and information from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

The IBMS uses VHF and UHF communications and each vehicle can act as a relay. 






It is something similar to the U.S. Blue Force data-link capability.

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## Kompromat

Any update on Turret design ?


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## Arsalan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> for locally produced Gun, it is being made in HMC. My father is part of project and this Gun is something with no internation links. i will have some inside info regarding the gun material and power but have to talk to Dad before posting that and the pics.
> have visited the facility many times, one thing that might intrest you is that it is tested (prior to delivery) in much sever conditions then it will face of battle field (temprature, pressure and dust mainly).
> HIT asked for intensive testing and it is claimed to be the most vigourously tested smooth bore gun!
> 
> regards!



the first batch of 50 barrels have been delivered to HIT from HMC. it cost HIT around 200 million that is slightly lower then what it was earlier when the guns were imported.
more importantly, Pakistan is now capable to manufacture another key part of the tank locally that will help in evaluation of Ak-II. also after the successful completion of the job, HIT have shown intrest in manufacturing an indigenous artillery gun and also self propelled artillery in collaboration with HMC. talks are underway and HIT is exploring different specification than PA want in these artillery guns.
the HMC made guns are to be fitted on the AK-I tanks.



Aeronaut said:


> Any update on Turret design ?



that will come in Ak-II, a low profile turret with decrease height and better angular protection!


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## Manticore

Pakistan&#8217;s Military Advantage: Al-Khalid Tank MBT-2000
By Ammar Faheem



> The Al-Khalid tank belongs to the category of Pakistan&#8217;s indiginously developed defense equipment which has always been a source of Pride to the Pakistani nation and the Pakistani armed forces. The Al-Khalid is a major achievement of the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).
> 
> The information presented in this column has been collected from various reliable sources of information available on the internet and aims at giving you an insight into Pakistan&#8217;s technological supremacy over the Indian military, which is a recognized fact.
> 
> The Al-Khalid is a &#8216;main battle tank&#8217; (MBT) and its development began as far back as in 1988. The design and manufacturing of the tank was a joint effort of Pakistan and China.
> 
> Interestingly, the Al-Khalid is lighter and smaller in size compared to tanks of its class found in the west and is based on the Chinese type-90 main battle tank project.
> 
> Weighing around 46 tons, the Al-Khalid is easier to transport as compared to other major tanks in use by strong militaries across the world. The tank has a length of 10.07 meters, a width of 3.50 meters and a height of 2.40 meters. The tank can accommodate a crew of three personnel. The tank can easily pass through water obstacles of up to 5 meters deep, thanks to a built in snorkel system.
> 
> The Al-Khalid comes with a 125mm smoothbore gun which can also fire certain missiles. It is also equipped with a 7.62mm-coaxial machine gun, a 12.7mm externally-mounted air-defence machine gun that can be fired with the hatch closed, and smoke grenade launchers.
> 
> The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic sight for all-around independent surveillance. Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders. The commander has the ability to acquire a target independently while the gunner is engaging another one thus giving it true hunter-killer capability. The automatic target-tracking system is designed to work when tank and target are both moving. It has a combat range of 400-500 Km and is fitted with thermal night-vision devices.
> 
> The Al-Khalid has a high power-to-weight of 26 hp/tonne and a 1200hp water cooled diesel engine giving it a maximum speed of up to 72 km/h and acceleration from 0 to 30 km/h in under ten seconds. Ukraine is a key partner in the production of the Al-Khalid tank as the engine deployed in the tank is produced by Ukraine.
> 
> It has a modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour, nuclear-biological-chemical defences, an effective thermal smoke generator, internal fire extinguisher and explosion-suppression system. It also has advanced laser detection system.
> 
> Al-Khalid is the only tank in the world, apart from French tanks, which can auto-track enemy tanks.
> 
> The Al-Khalid tank was first introduced for use by the Pakistan Army in 2001 and continues to be one of the strengths of the Pakistan military. As of now, it is estimated that the Pakistan army has more than 300 Al-Khalid tanks.



i will remove the repetitions when i get some time -- updated initial posts




> *old Al-Khalid...*
> 
> 
> IBMS
> Digital com systems
> It uses a data-link to facilitate secure communication of battlefield information between units, including tank video footage and information from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV)
> UAV conectivity=HIT
> Advanced western digital fire-control system
> 3rd gen imagery systems=Sagem
> NBC
> GPS or some other advanced system=not known to me!
> Jammers and sensors=HIT,Ukraine
> Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km
> HEAT-FS
> HE-FS
> APFSDS
> Ukrainian 125mm Gun=produced by HIT
> ATGM=
> Gun-launched, laser-guided anti-tank guided missiles can also be launched the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks and the Ukrainian designed Combat,modified in Pakistan to incorporate a larger warhead.
> muzzle reference system
> dual-axis stabilization system.
> electro-hydraulic power drives
> 24-round ready-to-fire magazine
> Load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.
> dual magnification day sight=Western
> panoramic sight for all-around independent surveillance=Western
> Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders.
> 
> 
> *
> Al-Khalid-I*
> 
> Courtesy Nabil-05 at PDF
> 
> 
> 
> AK-1 does have active protection system imported from Ukraine and integrated in HIT and it is now a standard fit on AK-1 by the name of VARTA (guards). Other changes are...
> Sagem Matis TI (3rd Gen)
> Turret control all electric instead of semi-electric previously
> Increased ammunition to 49 rounds (main gun)
> new ballistic computer with new sensors
> Second Generation IBMS (indigenous)
> Indigenous ERA along with composite armor (750 mm turret thickness without ERA) more than 1100 mm with ERA
> Main gun improved based on Ukrainian KBA 125 series previously, now completely modified and built in HIT facility with increased accuracy, barrel life and range.
> Improved suspension with hydraulic assistance more than previous version.
> Much higher automation and protection for crew, new NBC developed indigenously, tracks, thicker side skirts. Better cooling for crew comfort, also a new DU shell developed based on French and Korean shells with higher penetrations at POF.
> Improved autoloader with electric control.

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## Manticore

Links to pakistan companies involved in AK production

::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::

IICS - Defence Products

"An advanced laser detection system from Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) is present, the ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat warning system developed by Institute of Industrial Control Systems. LTS 1 consists of a mast-mounted sensor and operator's control box, which includes a display showing threats 360 degrees around the tank. It can detect laser rangefinders and laser target designators as well as respond automatically by triggering acoustic alarms, smoke generators and other countermeasure systems. LTS 1 can detect laser devices operating in the 0.8 to 1.06 µm waveband, has a 360° field of view in azimuth (resolution of 15°) and a field of view in elevation of -15° to +90°"

LASER THREAT SENSOR (LTS786P) 

"Laser Threat sensor LTS786P is an early warning device which gives audio and visual alarms of threat by sensing a laser beam aimed at it from any direction. The exact location of the threat (in-coming beam) is indicated by nine LEDs, covering all directions above horizon. It has the capability to differentiate between a laser Range Finder, Laser Target Designator or a Laser Target Tracker Signal. In addition, provision of sensor output signal, interfacing for appropriate counter-measures, is also available. It can be used on stationary or moving objects of any size or shape."

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:

Response: Enhanced for Nd:YAG Laser Signal
Range: >10,000 m
Field of view: Capable of detecting any signal
aimed towards LTS786P
Detector type: Silicon Photodiode
Size (approx): 214 x 134 mm (sensor Head)
126 x 123 x 100 mm (Display Unit)
Weight 2 kg (sensor Head)
(Approx): 1 kg (Display Unit)


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## Manticore

.............
....Of course, Pakistani tank Al-Khalid has certain prospects on the market, first of all, in Moslem countries but they are not obvious. This tank was developed by Pakistani and Chinese designers on the basis of Soviet tank Ò-80UD with active participation of Ukrainian specialists. T-80UD became the progenitor of not only Al-Khalid but also Chinese tank type 90-II.

Ukrainian tanks of T-84 family may become much more serious competitors for the manufacturers from Russia and China. In Ukraine they are series-produced under Oplot and Oplot-M (the first 24 tanks of this model were ordered) names. They represent further development of T-80UD Bulat tanks but are equipped with more powerful diesel engines (1,200 h.p.), 125-mm gun made in Ukraine, integrated ERA of new generation Nozh-2, Varta system for combating of guided antitank weapons of the enemy, combined panoramic commander's sight with independent day and thermal-imaging channels, separate commander's thermal-imager (independent from the gunner) and laser range-finder, new radio communication systems and other kinds of modern features..............................................

LexisNexis News - Latest News from over 4,000 sources, including newspapers, tv transcripts, wire services, magazines, journals.


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## Manticore

Varianten des T-72

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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> Links to pakistan companies involved in AK production
> 
> ::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::
> 
> IICS - Defence Products



adding HMC where the turret and barrel are being manufactured.


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## XYON

ANTIBODY said:


> Pakistan&#8217;s Military Advantage: Al-Khalid Tank MBT-2000
> By Ammar Faheem
> 
> 
> 
> i will remove the repetitions when i get some time -- updated initial posts



Also add the COMBINED DRIVERS NIGHT VISION SIGHT or CODRIS-E in place of the replaceable standard driver day sight on the new Al-Khalid 1

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## Manticore

need confirmation


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## Manticore

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf gives a model of Al Khalid MBT to Lt Gen Mykhailo Borysiuk, General Designer of Armoured Vehicles and Artillery Systems


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## Manticore



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hey antibody dnt u know the difference between the smaller twin of Al Khalid MBT?VT1A main battle tank n the original tank itself>?

peru bought VT1A main battle tanks not mbt-2000!


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## applesauce

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey antibody dnt u know the difference between the smaller twin of Al Khalid MBT?VT1A main battle tank n the original tank itself>?
> 
> peru bought VT1A main battle tanks not mbt-2000!



i think that order was cancelled for whatever reason
and VT1A and Al Khalid both have origins in the mbt2000


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## Manticore

peru






nabil found it

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## Manticore

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hey antibody dnt u know the difference between the smaller twin of Al Khalid MBT?VT1A main battle tank n the original tank itself>?
> 
> peru bought VT1A main battle tanks not mbt-2000!


 
this is my understanding , which i posted at militery photos [note first line]
the reason why i had put mbt2000 before vt1a , is that peru had rejected the baseline mbt2000 initially






The ZTZ-96 (Type 96) hull is based on the Type-88, which is based on the Type-85, which is based on the Type-59, which is a licensed T-54A.



> Al-Khalid is actually somewhat expensive at nearly 2.6 mil each after the Ukrainian engine upgrade. This is more due to amortization after replacing the old engines, though. Newbuilt Al-Khalids with Ukrainian engine installed from the start should be cheaper. Al-Khalid is an improved design based on a rejected Chinese tank project known as the Type-90 or MBT-2000, not on the Chinese Type-96. The hulls are very different and a cursory glance at the driver's hatch location should tell you this immediately. Ironically enough, the Chinese themselves are still marketing the MBT-2000 as a direct competitor to Al-Khalid.
> 
> Actually, none of the Chinese ZTZ-9x tanks is a direct copy of the Russian T-72. They use many of the same components, but they are mostly self-developed and quite different from the Russian T-72/90 family.
> 
> The ZTZ-96 (Type 96) hull is based on the Type-88, which is based on the Type-85, which is based on the Type-59, which is a licensed T-54A. Internally, the arrangement is akin to that of a larger, more heavily armored T-54/55, even retaining the ammo storage space on the right side of the forward hull. The turret is developed straight from the Type-85 III turret which was an indigenous Chinese product. The geometry of the Chinese Type-85 III turret is completely different from that of any modern Russian design and internally resembles more closely the traditional T-54/55 geometry. This ironically means that the inside of these tanks is slightly more spacious than that of the Russian T-72 because the T-54/55 of course fitted THREE people in the turret as opposed to two in the Chinese tanks. The external boxy shape is inspired more by Western than Russian designs - most likely due to US help in the form of the Jaguar project - and the modular armor blocks are possibly a legacy of the pre-2001 military cooperation with Israel. However, the ZTZ-96 still suffers from very thin side armor protection behind the boxy front. The VT-1A variant of the Type-96 was offered to Peru in 2009 (as MBT-2000P) and five examples were delivered but it is not clear whether these tanks will equip Peru's armed forces for real because there is now a dispute with Ukraine over the engine for these tanks. The contract was signed in January 2010, though.
> 
> The ZTZ-99/99G/99A1 (original Type 99) hull is fully indigenous despite looking superficially like that of the T-72. Internally and externally, the hull is very different because it is much longer and slightly wider. This is because the original Type-99 variants use a huge German MTU diesel with a separate turbocharger section that is not present in Russian and Ukrainian diesels. The rear of the original Type-99s' hull is enclosed and the exhaust of the engine goes out from the right side of the hull instead of the rear as in the T-72. The turret, as in the Type-96, is internally similar in geometry to that of the T-54/55 but externally boxy like in Western tanks. This results in very thick cast walls in the frontal side sections but very thin sides behind the bend, similar to T-72. With the introduction of the ZTZ-99A2, the hull is now practically the same as that of the T-72 in shape and dimensions although there are still some discernible differences (such as lack of self-entrenching blades and a taller rear section). This is due to adoption of Ukrainian diesel engines (or copies thereof - possibly abetted by Pakistan) that allow the vehicle's hull to be shortened. The most important difference, though, is that the Type-99s weigh between 52-56 metric tons. This is heavier than any Russian tank produced after the T-10. The added weight comes from the wider and longer hull and somewhat larger turret of the tank compared to the T-72 family. It doesn't mean they're "better". They're just less weight-efficient than equivalent Russian tanks. The tanks are also more expensive to produce despite a much larger production run than the T-90 family due to these factors. The Chinese Type-99A2 currently in production cost somewhere between 2.8-3.2 million each if reports are to be believed. No variant of the ZTZ-99 is offered for export, although individual components may be.
> 
> Where the Chinese do copy the Russians completely is in the weapons systems of these ZTZ-9x tanks. All of them use 125mm guns with exactly the same autoloader arrangement as in the Russian T-72. However, even in this there are differences. The Chinese coupled their weapons to western-style FCS, including an independent 360-degree TI periscope, earlier than the Russians did and use longer DU sabot rounds derived from their Israeli-designed 105mm APFSDS rounds. However, the risks of ammo detonation inherent in all T-72 family tanks is of course still there.
> 
> The Chinese Type-59D is still in production for export customers and it's dirt cheap as you say. Why anyone would want to buy them (even if totally broke) is beyond me. However, there is little doubt that this is the damn cheapest real tank money can buy today. Note that some ex-Warsaw-Pact countries do sell T-72 variants cheaper, but these are taken from old stock, not newbuilds. The real newbuilt T-72 copies and upgrades are usually more expensive.

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## IHK_PK

Dear mods.
which other countries have AK's right now and how many in numbers, if there are any? and when did they get them? the price tag? and wheather they were supplied by us or china? (any one have the knowledge?)


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## Dazzler

I am not a MOD but still....
Bangladesh getting MBT-2000, possibly 40-50. Morocco also evaluating but Peu seems out because of engine licensing dispute between China and Ukraine. 

@Antibody

The chart though very much correct as AK is most advanced variant of MBT 2000 as of now, it needs a little correction. Type 90IIM gave birth to MBT 2000 which after serious customizations became AK. Pakistan took a different route altogether and current AK series has only superficial resemblance with MBT 2000. This is necessary to understand because China have modified MBT 2000 all on their own to make it VT-1A having some similarities like 6TD-2 engine etc. But overall, VT-1A is strictly a Chinese modification where we have no share.

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## monitor

What i have read in local news paper that we are getting type 96 from china not Alkhalid/ mbt 2000 or may be they can switch to mbt-2000 too . but personally i would love to see AlKhalid in Bangladeshi color .


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## Dazzler

Maybe you are right but this is what surfaced some defense and news circles a while ago.

http://china-defense...adesh-army.html
http://www.thedailys....php?nid=191737

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5509/mbt20001.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/97/mbt20002.jpg


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## Manticore

Modernisation of Al-Khalid tank: Ukraine to provide technical cooperation to Pakistan: envoy
October 20, 2011

We will continue co-operation in developing technology for manufacturing military hardware, first of all in shape of Al-Khalid Project," Charge d'affaires maintained.


The A- Khalid is named after the legendary general of Islamic history, Khalid bin Walid (RA).

http://www.brecorder.com/general-news/single/599/172/1243705/

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## Manticore

Google Translate


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## Dazzler

ANTIBODY said:


> Google Translate




I remember it as i had a debate with Zraver on this however the specified deal was called off and replaced by a new deal and Sagem Matis was chosen for AK-1, where as Catherine FC stood for AK, UD, AZs. A mixed deal

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## Manticore

New version of MBT-2000 - interior

















complete set of new mbt pics
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mbt-photos-videos-thread-4.html#post2213421

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## Manticore

nabil_05 said:


> Special emphasis was given to protect the tank from simultaneous RPG hits from various angles. The armor, initially developed with foreign assistance, was later modified and developed indigenously which can sustain many RPG hits. This was validated during 2001, 2004, 2006 trials. AK Armor is considered better than that if the t-80ud (K-5) ERA. Reason is the availability of various technologies from China, France, Korea, Ukraine etc. Current armor as fitted on AK-1 is atleast twice as more efficient as previous version also validated during trials and lighter too.



ak armour tidbit

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## Manticore

old chinese ERA tiles


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## Dazzler

standard mbt-2000 ERA blocks. tested early type-90IIM prototypes and found pretty efficient against APFSDS and shaped charges.


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## Donatello

ANTIBODY said:


> old chinese era tiles




What do you mean old Chinese era?

This is the Chinese era !!!


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## Dazzler

penumbra said:


> What do you mean old Chinese era?
> 
> This is the Chinese era !!!



This brochure is years old. This ERA is no longer on mbt-2000 or VT-1A. AKs have indigenous ERA which is different in appearance and thickness. Just compare the pics.


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## Dr. Strangelove

ANTIBODY said:


> New version of MBT-2000 - interior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> complete set of new mbt pics
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mbt-photos-videos-thread-4.html#post2213421


its not an mbt 2000 its t 99g


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## Dr. Strangelove

do u have any idea how many al khalids we have from 2008 we r hearing the same numbers 300


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## Dazzler

Actual numbers are a closely guarded secret but they are more than 300.


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## SQ8

nabil_05 said:


> Actual numbers are a closely guarded secret but they are more than 300.



If a certain warehouse inventory is to be believed , then there are much more than that on the way.

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## Dr. Strangelove

nabil_05 said:


> Actual numbers are a closely guarded secret but they are more than 300.


for years we r hearing the same numbers 300 when the production of ak starts and what was the rate of the production do u have any idea


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## Dazzler

Just one hint. How many pics of various AK batches both in and outside HIT facility? I believe they are more than 550-600 but again, that's my opinion. Actual nos could be more. This include both AK and AK-1


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## notorious_eagle

nabil_05 said:


> Just one hint. How many pics of various AK batches both in and outside HIT facility? I believe they are more than 550-600 but again, that's my opinion. Actual nos could be more. This include both AK and AK-1



Sir the actually number is more than 600, it includes a mixture of both AK and AK-1 but lets do our country a favour and not indulge in more discussion regarding the numbers.

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## Dazzler

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir the actually number is more than 600, it includes a mixture of both AK and AK-1 but lets do our country a favour and not indulge in more discussion regarding the numbers.



Isn't it understandable? back to topic

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## Cool_Soldier

AK is being built since 2000.By considering rate of 50 unit per year, we should have up to now 550-600 AK and Ak1Tanks in our inventory and good luck for AK-2


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## regular

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir the actually number is more than 600, it includes a mixture of both AK and AK-1 but lets do our country a favour and not indulge in more discussion regarding the numbers.


To my little knowledge they were like 550 last year, so shold be at least 600 or more by now.....

---------- Post added at 10:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 PM ----------




Cool_Soldier said:


> AK is being built since 2000.By considering rate of 50 unit per year, we should have up to now 550-600 AK and Ak1Tanks in our inventory and good luck for AK-2


Yes! exactly ure calculation is good too..

---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------




ANTIBODY said:


> ak armour tidbit


Ure pics are beautiful here too...realli like them . The Tanks looks remarkable from inside , looks like an aircraft cockpit....

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## Dazzler

it seems to be upgraded on Leclerc's pattern and similar is being done for AK-2.


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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler

AK early prototype...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nabil_05 said:


> AK early prototype...


 
Whose the naked dude in the shorts?lol


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## Manticore

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Whose the naked dude in the shorts?lol



he is a guy we've met on a serbian forum - he was quite embarrassed and shocked to see his picture posted by me!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ANTIBODY said:


> he is a guy we've met on a serbian forum



Can u elaborate?


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## Dazzler

well, its a long story, haroon can elaborate


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## Manticore

> And you could say, my little thing on this second link. Captured in the desert near Tamavala Bahavalpura.* Just do not know where they found my picture.* []
> 
> A few pictures below that kapretan Amir in command of armored forces from Multan.


ekser222 
Al-Khalid tenk (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) :: MyCity Military

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## razgriz19

Cool_Soldier said:


> AK is being built since 2000.By considering rate of 50 unit per year, we should have up to now 550-600 AK and Ak1Tanks in our inventory and good luck for AK-2



not precisely. the production stopped various time, first the earthquake, then floods etc.
the numbers are around 300-400 thats for sure


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## HANI

Chines type 2000 during a recent Exercise

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------


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## Manticore

vt1

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## Manticore

(Al Khalid) » Sex Fun Warez - , , , , , .











Small differences between the external MBT "Al Khalid" can be found on the tower: apart from the blocks of RS, Tank has a different arrangement of the hood fan, who moved closer to the aft recess, the main gunner's sight has special shields to protect the upper part of the optics and grid basket to cover property feeding niche of the tower on the perimeter.
The rest of Pakistani main battle tank "Al Khalid" is similar to the prototype - "Type 90-II» / IMT-2000 and has the same characteristics. The automated fire control system of French production is similar to the FCS tank "Leclerc" and includes a panoramic sight of the low-level commander, gunner's sight combined with a thermal imager (both have independent laser range finders and the stabilization of the visual field), the control panel, 2-plane stabilizer arms, digital ballistic calculator and a set of sensors. . Armament consists of 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A46 with autoloader Russian sample (total ammo 39 shots), and 7.62-mm coaxial and 12.7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun (all made in China).
Production of the initial batch tanks, "Al-Khalid" was carried out at "Heavy Industries tack" in Pakistan. The first of the cars initial batch was collected in March 2001, and the rest - in July of that year. On the following series of tanks used engine-transmission unit with 6TD-2 engine, 1200 hp &#1050; 2007 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091; &#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1080;&#1079;&#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; 300 &#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074; «&#1040;&#1083;&#1100;-&#1061;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1076;». By 2007 it is planned to produce 300 tanks, "Al-Khalid." Thus, the entire fleet of modern Pakistani tanks (T-80UD and "Al-Khalid") are unified by MTO. &#1047;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1082;&#1091; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; &#1091;&#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1082;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1091;&#1095;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080; &#1077;&#1097;&#1077; 150 &#1084;&#1083;&#1085;. &#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1083;&#1072;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074; &#1057;&#1064;&#1040;. For the supply of engines Ukrainian tankostroiteli received another 150 million U.S. dollars. 


The control system automatic transmission (Suat) is designed to improve the performance of mobility and manageability of the tank in different driving conditions and reduce fatigue driver.

Suat serves as:

drive off the tank and move back and forth
automatic gear in the transmission, depending on changes in road conditions
ensure a smooth change of the radius of rotation of the tank
built-in test equipment traffic control
blocking the wrong actions of the driver when reversing switch
manual (backup) control mode of transmission within the three forward and backward

Suat composition:
electronic control unit
controls (steering wheel, gear lever, reverse lever, fuel pedal, clutch pedal, brake pedal)
electronic control unit analyzes the current state of the transmission
electronic block splitter (left, right)
panel display
actuators (electro-hydro-allocation mechanisms left and right transmission, electro-hydro-mechanical governor engine)
power system security management
wiring kit connecting wires
control drives
Specifications of the tank with Suat:

Range of speeds, km / h
forward
0 ... 70
back
0 ... 31
Turning radius, m 2.8
Operating voltage of 22.5 ... 28.5
Temperature range, ° C -10 ... +55

Maintenance in the tank Suat is not required.


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## Manticore




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## Cool_Soldier

Nice infrmation indeed about AK1.
But still no news coming up for AK-2, waiting for that Tiger to come in service.


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## madmusti

M1A1 Turret and T90A Body makes the ultimate Tank


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## Zabaniyah

IHK_PK said:


> Dear mods.
> which other countries have AK's right now and how many in numbers, if there are any? and when did they get them? the price tag? and wheather they were supplied by us or china? (any one have the knowledge?)





monitor said:


> What i have read in local news paper that we are getting type 96 from china not Alkhalid/ mbt 2000 or may be they can switch to mbt-2000 too . but personally i would love to see AlKhalid in Bangladeshi color .



http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/116935-army-get-44-mbt-2000-tanks.html


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## Manticore



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## Zarvan

The above pictures are they of Al Khalid 1 or Al Khalid 2 ?


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The above pictures are they of Al Khalid 1 or Al Khalid 2 ?



this one:




with the slanted turret looks like the AK-II,,

well, if it is, it looks good, infact great!

i have quite a few sources in HIT so i wonder how is sneaked pass,
will be going to my home town tomorrow and will surely go and have a check. 
will post if find anything interesting!!

thanks and best regards!
Arsalan Aslam

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## Manticore

had some time to make a photo slide show

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## farhan_9909

arsalanaslam123 said:


> this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with the slanted turret looks like the AK-II,,
> 
> well, if it is, it looks good, infact great!
> 
> i have quite a few sources in HIT so i wonder how is sneaked pass,
> will be going to my home town tomorrow and will surely go and have a check.
> will post if find anything interesting!!
> 
> thanks and best regards!
> Arsalan Aslam



i saw a video on youtube which states that the picture is captured in 2008..so i think this seem more of the AL khalid I.

the AL khalid II engine(1500hp) is nt yet selected

even though may be you are right

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## kafumanpk

The great Pakistan, we will continue to upgrade it.


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## Manticore

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf gives a model of Al Khalid MBT to Lt Gen Mykhailo Borysiuk, General Designer of Armoured Vehicles and Artillery Systems 





Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau KMDB then began supplying Pakistan with the 6TD-2 diesel engine for installation on the Al-Khalid main battle tank, and has assisted with Pakistan's Al-Zarrar tank project aswell as the T-80UD - supplied to Pakistan.KMDB designed the T-80UD, a diesel-engined variant of the gas turbine-powered T-80, in 1985.

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## Desert Fox

arsalanaslam123 said:


> this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with the slanted turret looks like the AK-II,,


I believe Al-Khalid II will have a much bigger turret.


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## Arsalan

Desert Fox said:


> I believe Al-Khalid II will have a much bigger turret.



oky, but what is this suposed to be then? 
i am trying but havent got a clue yet.

as of now, all i can say is that this pic might not be from HIT~
any input?? 
any idea what this is??
actually the turrets of AK and AK-I both are more round and curved from front as compared to this picture with a more slanted frontal portion of turret!
that's what confusion me!!

now its either the angel from where the pic is taken or what!

i am trying to figure this out with my source but not getting time to arrange a detailed seating! any help will be appreciated!
ANTIBODY??


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## farhan_9909

> Kunal Biswas &#8206;@Farhan, At the end of the day, AK is a tank with huge deign flaw, Any Shell either HEAT or AP will cut of that exposed Roof without ERA at top, Worst about AK that Exposed Roof at Front, right beneath it is the Tank commander and gunner, Not to mention Exposed ammo in the floor of the AK..
> 8 hours ago · Like · 1



is it true?


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## alimobin memon

farhan_9909 said:


> is it true?


Seriously u are asking if its true ... definitely not because a third generation cant have draw backs like that...


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## DarkPrince

i think bangladesh also have al khalid tanks


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## monitor

DarkPrince said:


> i think bangladesh also have al khalid tanks



Not yet . in future may be .


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## asad71

DarkPrince said:


> i think bangladesh also have al khalid tanks



We have ordered MBT-2000 from PRC with Ukranian engines. I don't know how this will be different to AK,AK I or AK II?

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------




DarkPrince said:


> i think bangladesh also have al khalid tanks



We have ordered MBT-2000 from PRC with Ukranian engines. I don't know how this will be different to AK,AK I or AK II?

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## farhan_9909

??????????????????/

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## Dazzler

asad71 said:


> We have ordered MBT-2000 from PRC with Ukranian engines. I don't know how this will be different to AK,AK I or AK II?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> AK-2 is something totally different and being built at HIT, not borrowed from China.
> 
> Apart of some similarities like Engine (6td-2) here is a lot of difference between AK, AK1 and MBT 2000 like thermal imagers, IBMS, ballistic computers, datalink protocal, transmission, optics, APS, LWS, Turret control, auto loader capavity, ERA thickness and even the main gun which is locally made/ improved with French assistance, among few others.

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## Dazzler

An excellent insight on how the AK prototype went through the most difficult conditions all the way where we see them today. Also note Chinese appraisal for Pak Army's stringent requirements backed by war experience...


"Interviews 90-2 tank chief design engineer horse to create shade: &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;90-2 development processes &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;90-2 tanks are one kind feed specially the export the 3rd generation of main battle tank. in 1990 China Weapons industry Corporation and the user country conclude and sign contract, developed the MBT2000 tank jointly, 1990-1994 years have developed the first paper vehicle, 90-2 pieces were the volume production code numbers. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;in 1994 the horse always took the post of 90-2 chief design engineers, 1994-1999 years have altogether developed 4 90-2 paper vehicles, because the user requested 90-2 equipment advanced high efficiency power bay, must realize fluid drive, the engine power not to be lower than 735 kilowatts, therefore developed arrived at many difficulties finally. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;At that time although the home had satisfies the request the engine, actually was also unable to provide conforms to the request gear box, therefore both sides decided together from the international market purchase, the earliest plan was uses domestically produced 96DZ882 kilowatts engines coordinate German ZF Corporation's LSG-3000 gearbox. This combination may satisfy the request, but the mid-1990s Germany National Security Council actually overruled has exported LSG-3000 the contract, developed the personnel only to be able once more shaping. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;Passes through determined to engine's shaping that 90-2 have realized 7 front motions, 4 reverse gear highest back-draft speed may amount to for 30 kilometers/hours, but may also the both sides caterpillar band reverse in-situ change, has met the user country's tactical technical characteristics need. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;Because 90-2 chasses, the motion part, the artillery, fire control, the protection division system is our country independently develops, therefore the power bay question solves latter 90-2 finalizes to enter the trial production stage very quickly, the first batch production's tank has accepted the strict inspection in the user country,Displayed the outstanding performance. in 2006 the user country military has signed the mass purchase contract satisfied, total quantity purchased several hundred, valued at several billions US dollars, became at that time one of Our country Weapons industry System Related Enterprise's important output value origins. 

&#8220;tremendous dangers and difficulties&#8221; use environment &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The horse always introduced that 90-2 the tactical technology inspection which accepted in the user country is extremely severe, many test conditions and the experiment content were domestic never. This is because the user country and the simulated enemy sea and air strength disparity is huge, therefore takes seriously to the army material, not only its assessment criteria compared to our country military standard strict many, even must be severer than many Western countries. However this kind of high standard is not competes, but is the user country the experience which summarizes in all previous war. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;First is the adverse circumstance inspection, the locality summer the temperature is frequently 45 degrees - 53 degrees, the humidity is 30%-60%, the road surface often is the sand dune and the deep sand. The local sand does not look like our country northwest desert such to become granulated, but is the dust shape. This to the tank entire system, formed the severe test particularly to the observation and sighting system, two generation of low light level night vision devices which on the initial models vehicle equipped the performance has been quite splendid under the domestic environment, but in user country high temperature, under multi-dust environment range coverage large scale drop. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The tank goes the durable experiment is severe. The experiment period paper vehicle wants the race car 150-200 kilometers every day, every year must undergo the continual travel inspection which 400 kilometers do not stop. Perhaps this target the automobile which went to the road on does not calculate anything, but to the desert bad-land upward time tracked vehicle is the nightmarish experience simply, famous western tank, including the American M1A1 tank when this country inspected has not passed. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;What is more interesting is fires at the experiment to inspect. Compares with the simulated enemy, this country's land area is small, strategic vertical depth, once looks with the invasion pre-battle mobilization is hasty, therefore requests the tank, in does not permit the school artillery, the ammunition after the open country 40 degrees - 50 degree insolations fire, is away from is 1.8-2.5 kilometers generally immediately; But moves to moves the fire to carry on the big fluctuation road surface, on 2 kilometers distances, becomes 45° under the condition with the target vehicle to fire. Sometimes the tank just completed the long distance race car, is requested to shoot at the target immediately. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The author believed that the user country bases encounters the enemy after the supposition ignites the invasion, the Tank unit does not have in advance prepares in the situation hastily to carry on long distance tracked march, then meets the request which the enemy launches slaughters frigidly to put forward these inspection condition immediately.

Then, 90-2 can satisfy reasonably these actually has the harsh condition? &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The key attack satisfies the request &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The user country military's key hypothetical-enemy is Russia's T-90C tank. For in the common battle is away from can resist the T-90C launch the armor piercer, the scientific researchers were 90-2 design lowly, the fine chassis contour, the chassis have designed 6 plans, the turret shape to design 2 kind of plans successively successively directly, after undergoing the target practice experiment, has determined present's shape. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;90-2 use the advanced composite armor and the applique armor, the side and positive welcomes the ball area in the same tonnage vehicles is quite small, to enhance the tank body and the turret frontage against armor-piercing shell 90-2 also designs has dressed up the reactive armor to hang the spot, after shot at the target the experiment to determine several times we see today contour. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;In order to satisfy the user to be rightThe artillery precision's demand, 90-2 have used the hydraulic pressure from the tight-fitting tube and the chamber chrome-plating technology, makes the tube life to enhance to 500 rounds, artillery is higher than 200 rounds compared to T-90C the use 2A46M. User country after many times after artillery fire surveys the inside diameter change quantity immediately, finally indicated that 90-2 artilleries have achieved the world advanced level, moreover occurs some matters also proved that our country's 125 millimeters artilleries surpass 2A46M truly in the precision and the life aspect. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;90-2 212B fire control systems are another luminescent spot, is also user's key inspection project. Because the imaginary battlefield is relatively open, who can discover first, open fire first can win. Therefore 90-2 used the thermal imaging system to substitute the low light level night vision device, has solved high temperature, under the multi-dust environment range coverage question; The gunner telescopic sights change by the single percentage double rate, enhanced laser ranging's range coverage; Vehicle commander Zhou Shijing changes bistable by initial models vehicle's Shan Wen, and has solved a series of technical question; Increased the automatic tracking loop. Not only the above many measures approve in our country produce on the tank to use for the first time, and has also solved the massive reliability and the quality question. In addition, increases unceasingly along with the electronic system in the development with the complication, the turret inner space increases gradually, the careful reader contrasted 1992 90-2 pictures and official export MBT2000, might discover that the turret expanded obviously. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The automatic feed mechanism is in 90-2 developments another major problem. The development initial period uses the survey imitation overseas model the automatic feed mechanism, but this kind of series connected movement's automatic feed mechanism failure rate is very high. The scientific researchers have carried on 29 attacks to it, enhanced the reliability greatly, has met the user country need. At present the horse always leads the scientific researchers to change it the computer control. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;Perhaps likes tank's reader knowing that the motion part is the subsystem which the tank is easiest to have problems. The tank appears almost has 90 remaining years of life until now, but can independently develop the tank motion part the country actually not to have several. This domain involves domains and so on metallurgy, machine manufacture, several dozens year heavy industry technology has not accumulated is unable to bribe. Our country makes before then the tank many are 40 tonners, but 90-2 already approached 50 tons, must design brand-new. Before Assembly shop's 90-2 end product vehicle, Ma Zongzhi each one components was introducing in detail for reporter that the proud sentiment reveals in speech and appearance. In order to satisfy the user the harsh request, the scientific research and the production personnels to the driving pulley surface treatment craft, bogie aspects and so on rubber tire formula, track roller design, track pin material and structure have made the massive attacks, the union overseas advanced caterpillar band technology, developed finally has met the need the motion part.

After the above attack and the improvement, 90-2 underwent the user approaching barbaric test. Little while ago the user announced a section of MBT2000 race car video recording - - tank soldier to drive the tank in the open country, even the long distance marched forward high speed in the shallow river course. The horse always introduced that said the user country tank soldier's road sense is very high, therefore is also very high to tank's request, when trial production raid of payment, user country premier once personally drove the experience, commended repeatedly openly expresses 90-2 and drives the automobile to be equally easy. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;The horse always also specially introduced necessary BW654 the tank recovery trailer tractor. This kind of vehicle's hoisting up ability reaches, is in the present world hoists up the ability biggest recovery vehicle. The reason that needs the such great tonnage the recovery vehicle, is the user proposed when battlefield replacement bogie or caterpillar band, must use to repair in a rush the steering handle to repair the side to hang completely. Perhaps this is the experience which in the combat, the exercise comes. Reporter asks the horse curiously always, is two BW654 may 90-2 hang completely one &#8220;raises&#8221; walks? Ma Zongxiao was saying that should be this. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;After such long and difficult development, 90-2 and simulated enemy does T-90C compare actually how? The horse always proudly said that 90-2 in all targets not weakly in T-90C, in aspect and so on specific power, moving velocity, traffic capacity, observation and sighting ability, fire control system reaction time, accent artillery speed key indicators also surpass T-90C. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;Compared with an interesting target is the armor protection, Russia does not have the public T-90C barrier property. However may discover from the battle weight and the vehicles size's comparison that 90-2 and the T-90C length, the width, high are close, simple ratio T-90C heavy about 1.8 tons. Was considering that is basically same to 90-2 power bay sizes and T-90C, shell quantity are only more than T-90C 3 rounds, therefore may judge this 1.8 tons which more than 90-2 come out basically is the armor. Its overall protection should surpass T-90C. &#12288;&#12288; &#12288;&#12288;90-2 post-sale service work are very similarly also splendid. Not only the Chinese side supplies the sufficient spare parts promptly. Also accredits the technical group in the user country handling question. The Chinese side also supports the path which the user country walks relies on one's own effort to revive, helped it to establish the large-scale repair shop, from the routine maintenance to the overhaul could in the local solution, safeguard the battle efficiency. The user country is satisfied. After comparatively certain national purchase tank, not only cannot fix, even Che Xiuhuai, must return to frequently produces the country to repair originally.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

farhan_9909 said:


> ??????????????????/



One is alkhalid the other is the V1TA...or somthin.. different tanks.


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## Manticore

farhan_9909 said:


> ??????????????????/




no , i remember seeing this pic in some indian forum some months back, showing the upper turret exposed to indian antitank missiles


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## Dazzler

AK has ERA covering on turret and armor thickened with AV-8 Kevlar. Do not believe Indians all the time

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## Rafi

nabil_05 said:


> AK has ERA covering on turret and armor thickened with AV-8 Kevlar. Do not believe Indians all the time



AK has very good armor protection tested and evaluated against all anti-tank weapons.


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## razgriz19

nabil_05 said:


> AK has ERA covering on turret and armor thickened with AV-8 Kevlar. Do not believe Indians all the time



nobody cares what Indians or anyone else say. however every picture of Al khalid that i've seen doesnt hhave ERA or any other armour on top of the turret. the only armour you could see on the turret is besides the barrel at the front, and a couple of plates on the side of the turret.
please provide a picture if you have it

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## Dazzler

razgriz19 said:


> nobody cares what Indians or anyone else say. however every picture of Al khalid that i've seen doesnt hhave ERA or any other armour on top of the turret. the only armour you could see on the turret is besides the barrel at the front, and a couple of plates on the side of the turret.
> please provide a picture if you have it



Taken back in 2003. notice the roof ERA cover. 

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/futurz2003/images/alkhalid1.jpg

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waiting desperately for AK-II.... if anybody wants new pics of M109A5s i can go get em tommorow..lol

Those are cool machines... my Fathers brigade has em... fire em few weeks back... awesome stuff man.

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## farhan_9909

well anyone have pic of AL khalid I?? (apart from the one we saw in the video of HIT visit by some general)??

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## farhan_9909

ANTIBODY said:


> no , i remember seeing this pic in some indian forum some months back, showing the upper turret exposed to indian antitank missiles



Turret of the Ak need to be redesigned in the AKII like mitup atlay turret or leo 2 alike

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## asad71

1. This thread has joined PA's Al Khalid and BA's MBT-2000. But they are different in many aspects. For instance AK, AK I and AK II are with Chinese 1,200, 1,300 and 1,500 HP engines. However, BA's MBT-2000 is coming with a 1,200 HP Ukranian engine.

2. Can anyone specify the major differences and similarities between AKs and MBT-2000 please?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

asad71 said:


> 1. This thread has joined PA's Al Khalid and BA's MBT-2000. But they are different in many aspects. For instance AK, AK I and AK II are with Chinese 1,200, 1,300 and 1,500 HP engines. However, BA's MBT-2000 is coming with a 1,200 HP Ukranian engine.
> 
> 2. Can anyone specify the major differences and similarities between AKs and MBT-2000 please?



Lol its AK which has the ukranian engine not mbt-2000... among differences are the ERA,UAV conectivity,IBMS,DU rounds,MAIN GUN,sights,transmissions,ATPS etc etc

MBT-2000 is an entirely chinese version with all chinese systems while AK has HIT,GIDs,ukranian and EU sub systems.

While the AK-I is an upgraded version of AK...

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## asad71

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol its AK which has the ukranian engine not mbt-2000... among differences are the ERA,UAV conectivity,IBMS,DU rounds,MAIN GUN,sights,transmissions,ATPS etc etc
> 
> MBT-2000 is an entirely chinese version with all chinese systems while AK has HIT,GIDs,ukranian and EU sub systems.
> 
> While the AK-I is an upgraded version of AK...



1. That info above was collected from this thread only. You need to roll up. Regarding BA tank using 1,200 HP engines, I can confirm that these engines were ordered sometime back.

2. The question then is, why a merged thread which could cause some confusion?


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## farhan_9909

asad71 said:


> 1. That info above was collected from this thread only. You need to roll up. Regarding BA tank using 1,200 HP engines, I can confirm that these engines were ordered sometime back.
> 
> 2. The question then is, why a merged thread which could cause some confusion?



Indeed you are right MBT-2000 also use the ukrainian engine bt apart from this everything is from china 

well AK has western systems and Pakistani system

and the Ak1 is overall much superior to MBT-2000 as well as the basic Al khalid

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## Desert Fox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> waiting desperately for AK-II.... if anybody wants new pics of M109A5s i can go get em tommorow..lol
> 
> Those are cool machines... my Fathers brigade has em... fire em few weeks back... awesome stuff man.



Does Pakistan produce/overhaul the 155mm Gun barrels for those M109A5's?

---------- Post added at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

Are there any new pictures of the Al-Khalid I??


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## Desert Fox

nabil_05 said:


>



Why is there a big gap between those three ERA armor plates and that thing (armor?) that is welded to the rear of the turret?

Al-Khalid Turret should have an all round armor protection similar to the T-90:


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## Desert Fox

ANTIBODY said:


>


From the above pictures it can be noticed that the three ERA armor plates have been removed and instead they are replaced by the VARTA system (my guess), similar to the Shotra on the T-90:






Al-Khalid with VARTA from distance:

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## asad71

farhan_9909 said:


> Indeed you are right MBT-2000 also use the ukrainian engine bt apart from this everything is from china
> 
> well AK has western systems and Pakistani system
> 
> and the* Ak1 is overall much superior to MBT-2000 *as well as the basic Al khalid



Can you elucidate that please?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

asad71 said:


> Can you elucidate that please?



AK basic version aswell as AK-I are both superior to MBT-2000 in every sense... im not sure if mbt-2000 uses the ukrainian engine though.. coz PA got them coz they were suitable our climate n region... 

Its superior coz of its gadgets... be it tranmission(lecrec),GUN(french .. now Indigenous claimed to be superior to the ones imported frm france),long rod ammo by HIT( not present in mbt-2000),Pak HIT DU rounds,it has HIT IBMS systems(unlike mbt)...it has upgraded VARTA-1 not present on mbt-2000,GIDs indigenous ERA which is lighter n better... we also provided it to turkey for their national tank...imagery n thermal sights are frm france n italy,sagem,catherine.. Hunter killer ability only present in Lecrec besides AK,Datalink,UAV conectivity all by HIT... among other goodies.

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## razgriz19

UAV connectivity? thats something new for me!
could you please provide some valid sources IF you have them

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## razgriz19

nabil_05 said:


> Taken back in 2003. notice the roof ERA cover.
> 
> http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/futurz2003/images/alkhalid1.jpg



ohh nice! now thats something!

but im still a bit concern, there are only a few armoured plates and im sure you already know that new generation ATM attack tanks from top like US army Javelin.
i dont think we can do much now as its well underway into production. but do you think if we could put an active "hard kill" system on it?


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## farhan_9909

razgriz19 said:


> ohh nice! now thats something!
> 
> but im still a bit concern, there are only a few armoured plates and im sure you already know that new generation ATM attack tanks from top like US army Javelin.
> i dont think we can do much now as its well underway into production. but do you think if we could put an active "hard kill" system on it?



Vt-1(MBT-2000 variant) designed for peru.Similar can be done on AL khalid with indegenous GIDS made ERA.


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## Dazzler

asad71 said:


> 1. This thread has joined PA's Al Khalid and BA's MBT-2000. But they are different in many aspects. For instance AK, AK I and AK II are with Chinese 1,200, 1,300 and 1,500 HP engines. However, BA's MBT-2000 is coming with a 1,200 HP Ukranian engine.
> 
> 2. Can anyone specify the major differences and similarities between AKs and MBT-2000 please?



You only have to go through previous pages of this thread to get more info instead of asking silly questions.


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## Dazzler

for those who are concerned abourt armor. During trials, it was proved that AK turret has much thicker composite armor coat than any MBT in Pakistan (including the T-80uds) which was not penetrated by any antitank munition including RPG-7s. This has been validated time and again. So much so that this is the reason for such light ERA blocks on turret because it is already well protected. The new generation armor used in AK-1 and soon on AK-2 with more thickness will be even better. Even as of now, AK and AK-1s are better protected than most T-80s and 90s but they do not have the habit of boasting about it. I wish they could put a name to their local armor though

My source is an eye witness to AK protection trials.

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## saqib2s

yeh cheez!!!
PAK ARMY


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## killerx

al-khalid is a good tank better then arjun thank but russian t90 are good and india is producing in large no so we are need alkhalid 2 which should be better then russian t90 and fight future models

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## Penguin

Desert Fox said:


> Why is there a big gap between those three ERA armor plates and that thing (armor?) that is welded to the rear of the turret?
> 
> Al-Khalid Turret should have an all round armor protection similar to the T-90:


In that gap are normally mounted a whole bunch of dischargers for smoke and obscurant grenades. The ERA is oriented towards the forward arc, the stuf on the turret rear is a storage rack/bin (onto which ERA could be mounted) which might also help give some protection against AT-rockets if the bin makes the rocket (heat warhead) detonate at some distance from the actual turret steel.

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## Desert Fox

Penguin said:


> In that gap are normally mounted a whole bunch of dischargers for smoke and obscurant grenades. The ERA is oriented towards the forward arc, the stuf on the turret rear is a storage rack/bin (onto which ERA could be mounted) which might also help give some protection against AT-rockets if the bin makes the rocket (heat warhead) detonate at some distance from the actual turret steel.



But how come T-90 has an all round ERA protection and yet is also able to have smoke launchers?


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## IronsightSniper

Desert Fox said:


> Why is there a big gap between those three ERA armor plates and that thing (armor?) that is welded to the rear of the turret?
> 
> Al-Khalid Turret should have an all round armor protection similar to the T-90:



That looks like a camera angling issue. The T-90 only has ERA on a bit less than the front half of it's turret.


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## farhan_9909

Al khalid turret in the AKII should be seriously redesigned and a sloped armor turret like Leopard 2a6 or leclerc(boxy same as arjun) type turret should be adopted


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## IronsightSniper

farhan_9909 said:


> Al khalid turret in the AKII should be seriously redesigned and a sloped armor turret like Leopard 2a6 or leclerc(boxy same as arjun) type turret should be adopted



The Leopard 2A6's and the Leclerc don't have great turrets, in my opinion. Thus far, the best turret design to date is on the Abrams, due to the fact that it is the only tank in the world to have a fully segregated, armored ammunition stowage point. Even the Leopard 2, the Merkava IV, etc, don't store all of their ammunition in one place, leaving ammo here and there in other places of the tank, making it vulnerable to your Gulf War classic, "no-hats T-72". The Abram's turret can be improved though. A circular shape, like those you see on Soviet and Russian era tanks, is great for all around protection (a sphere has the most volume per surface area of all shapes), however, you must still preserve the ammunition stowage station like that on the Abrams, so that the tank does not catastrophically explode. I'd advice for the Abrams turret, as it is, with semi-circle add-on armor on the side of the turrets. This would make a hell of a heavy turret, but extremely, extremely well protected against a conventional land army.

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## farhan_9909

IronsightSniper said:


> The Leopard 2A6's and the Leclerc don't have great turrets, in my opinion. Thus far, the best turret design to date is on the Abrams, due to the fact that it is the only tank in the world to have a fully segregated, armored ammunition stowage point. Even the Leopard 2, the Merkava IV, etc, don't store all of their ammunition in one place, leaving ammo here and there in other places of the tank, making it vulnerable to your Gulf War classic, "no-hats T-72". The Abram's turret can be improved though. A circular shape, like those you see on Soviet and Russian era tanks, is great for all around protection (a sphere has the most volume per surface area of all shapes), however, you must still preserve the ammunition stowage station like that on the Abrams, so that the tank does not catastrophically explode. I'd advice for the Abrams turret, as it is, with semi-circle add-on armor on the side of the turrets. This would make a hell of a heavy turret, but extremely, extremely well protected against a conventional land army.



a very good post

actually at present the AK turret is OK bt is still based on soviet legacy turret.in the soviet legacy turret i would say that the turret of t-84 oplot is the best.

the AKII is supposed to be around 55Tonnes..so we cant add a turret like abrams

though even if the turret is heavily armored like leclerc one this will atleast stop top attack ATGM to some extant


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## Nishan_101

Although I can't say for sure but PA should have atleast 3000 tanks and 1100 self propelled howetzers as we have to face many enemies in now a days. Al-Khalid and AL-Zarrar are the real tanks for PA.

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## IronsightSniper

farhan_9909 said:


> a very good post
> 
> actually at present the AK turret is OK bt is still based on soviet legacy turret.in the soviet legacy turret i would say that the turret of t-84 oplot is the best.
> 
> the AKII is supposed to be around 55Tonnes..so we cant add a turret like abrams
> 
> though even if the turret is heavily armored like leclerc one this will atleast stop top attack ATGM to some extant



They could probably up armor it by simply replacing that caged-basket that's on the back end of the turret with something more solid and in layers, like 3 pieces of steel at varying hardnesses, that would give it great protection v.s. HEAT rounds with a good amount of air space between it and the side-turret armor. Should probably add 2 tonnes to it over all.


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## Manticore

Google Translate
Tanks. Heavy tanks. Al-Khalid
Translated from: Russian


Google Translate
The main battle tank "Al Khalid"

Main battle tanks (part 11) Al-Khalid (Pakistan
Google Translate

THE MAIN BATTLE TANK AL KHALID (PAKINSTAN)
Google Translate

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## chairborne ranger

is there any REAL info out on the new al-khalid, and what's going into it, and how much development has actually taken place??
to increase the weight of a tank by about 10 tons, there must be a lot more stuff the chinese are putting in there


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## Dazzler

chairborne ranger said:


> is there any REAL info out on the new al-khalid, and what's going into it, and how much development has actually taken place??
> to increase the weight of a tank by about 10 tons, there must be a lot more stuff the chinese are putting in there



Ak has been completely made in Pakistan since 2005-06, same is the case with AK-1 and Ak-2, China has nothing to do with this as they have their own 99 series running. Stop trolling and start learning.

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## Dazzler

chairborne ranger said:


> is there any REAL info out on the new al-khalid, and what's going into it, and how much development has actually taken place??
> to increase the weight of a tank by about 10 tons, there must be a lot more stuff the chinese are putting in there



Ak has been completely made in Pakistan since 2005-06, same is the case with AK-1 and Ak-2, China has nothing to do with this as they have their own 99 series running. Stop trolling and start learning.


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## Manticore

nabil_05 said:


> AK-2 is in the category of medium weight tank as far as i know. In between 50-55 ton range, having an upgrade of major systems from ballistic computer to fire control system, automation is higher than that of AK-1, so much so that most of the tank functions are computer controlled. In terms of Thermal imager/ night fighting performance, AKs have a upper hand on Type 99 series, even the Type 99G uses a mechanical Thermal Imager, maybe upgraded to automatic scanning TI in 99A2 series but i doubt it is at the level of Matis 3rd gen or Catherine 2nd gen TI as of now. The only area where AK-1 is inferior is the engine power and heavy armor but AK-1 is a lighter tank anyway (compared to Type 99s). AK-2 will be a totally revamped version from armor, engine, APS, fire power, indigenous autoloader unlike previous version in AKs, giving a better loading time, environmental control, BMS 2 or maybe 3 as 2 is already in AK-1, also new ammo is being made at HIT including new long rod penetrators, Naiza 2 likely. It will be a game changer in the sub continent armor domain IF Arjun Mk2 is not fielded by 2015.



dont remember if i linked this piece before

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## druid

I feel in modern warfare, tanks are becoming more and more obsolete, hence no one is putting significant R & D into thier development anymore.


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## T-Rex

druid said:


> I feel in modern warfare, tanks are becoming more and more obsolete, hence no one is putting significant R & D into thier development anymore.



All it needs is effective air cover or anti-aircraft weapons and that will transform it into a formidable weapon of war. Now, that's not too difficult, is it?


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## Rafi

On open ground in plains and deserts = their is nothing like the tank that can achieve full spectrum dominance on the battlefield. 

AK, and when they come into service, AK1 and AK2 are the best in the world for bang for buck. This is simply the truth.


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## VelocuR

Can Al Khalid 1 transform to the Israeli Merkava tank styles bigger and tough?


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## killerx

nay specs of no of AL-kHALID built till now how much pak army has


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## Armstrong

ANTIBODY said:


> Google Translate
> Tanks. Heavy tanks. Al-Khalid
> Translated from: Russian
> 
> 
> Google Translate
> The main battle tank "Al Khalid"
> 
> Main battle tanks (part 11) Al-Khalid (Pakistan
> Google Translate
> 
> THE MAIN BATTLE TANK AL KHALID (PAKINSTAN)
> Google Translate



That second article that you posted mentions that 'Ukraine also provides assistance to Pakistan to modernize T-59s 'Al Zarrar' to the level of T-80UDs.' - How true is this assertion ? Could the Al-Zarars possibly be upgraded to such a level ?


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## alimobin memon

Armstrong said:


> That second article that you posted mentions that 'Ukraine also provides assistance to Pakistan to modernize T-59s 'Al Zarrar' to the level of T-80UDs.' - How true is this assertion ? Could the Al-Zarars possibly be upgraded to such a level ?


Yes because it's not aircraft where u need a radar dome size to inherit different radars and at the other hand length and weight of alzarrar is same so it has been equipped with 125mm and ERA's of Alkhalid Generation.... History explains about the Alzarrar destroyed in Waziristan operation was hit with Several RPG's yet survived in the end it was destroyed by Heavy IED

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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> Yes because it's not aircraft where u need a radar dome size to inherit different radars and at the other hand length and weight of alzarrar is same so it has been equipped with 125mm and ERA's of Alkhalid Generation.... History explains about the Alzarrar destroyed in Waziristan operation was hit with Several RPG's yet survived in the end it was destroyed by Heavy IED



you forgot to mention that it was recovered and put back into service. What was validated after the attack was the reliability of armor and systems since no crew member was injured or killed. Increased crew confidence in AZ to a great deal. Regarding the capability on par with T-80, AZ has better thermal imager (Italian Thetis TI) compared to Buran Catherine thermal imager on T-80, same 125mm gun, similar armor and GPS/ INS for navigation along with similar armament, transmission but inferior engine. Overall, it is similar to T-80 in performance which was the purpose of this upgrade.

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## farhan_9909

Any info regarding the Local Main gun?

Is it bigger than the older french one?

and can it fire long rod penetrator even from the autoloader?
if yes than any info regarding the long rod penetrator..is it the naiza 2 or we import them?

Info regarding the Indegenous 125mm Smoothbore gun will really help me


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## Arsalan

farhan_9909 said:


> Any info regarding the Local Main gun?
> 
> Is it bigger than the older french one?
> 
> and can it fire long rod penetrator even from the autoloader?
> if yes than any info regarding the long rod penetrator..is it the naiza 2 or we import them?
> 
> Info regarding the Indegenous 125mm Smoothbore gun will really help me



it is the same size and same caliber, 125mm smoot bore being made in HMC.
they delivered the first batch of 50 back in April 2011 and the second batch is also delivered now.
it can fire guided anti tank missiles along with the normal 125mm munitions!

the qualtiy is said to have been improved, in terms of extreme operating conditions and better life.

discussed at:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2091692

and

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2112089

i hope it helps!
regards!

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## asad71

1. Since there is a load of info on MBT-2000 here and we in BD know for a fact that our ally PRC is giving us the MBT-2000, I have three questions, if someone can kindly answer:

a. Are we getting the MBT-2000 Upgraded version?
b. Are Chinese engineers loading in some of our peculiar requests?
c. Is the turrent mounted 12.7 mm HMG remotely controlled? 

2. Any other relevant info/update will be highly appreciated.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Any information on the ammunition and penetrating power of the main gun?
Does it use HEAT or APFSDS DU rounds as main ammunition?
Also the base armour thickness any estimate?And the quality[generation] of the ERA package if any.


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## Dazzler

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Any information on the ammunition and penetrating power of the main gun?
> Does it use HEAT or APFSDS DU rounds as main ammunition?
> Also the base armour thickness any estimate?And the quality[generation] of the ERA package if any.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2112089



asad71 said:


> 1. Since there is a load of info on MBT-2000 here and we in BD know for a fact that our ally PRC is giving us the MBT-2000, I have three questions, if someone can kindly answer:
> 
> a. Are we getting the MBT-2000 Upgraded version?
> b. Are Chinese engineers loading in some of our peculiar requests?
> c. Is the turrent mounted 12.7 mm HMG remotely controlled?
> 
> 2. Any other relevant info/update will be highly appreciated.



BD are getting a variant of MBT 2000 according to their own specifications so Pakistan is not a party in that deal, rather China. Specifications can be found on BD military forum regarding other details. AK is a different mbt than mbt 2000 having only external similarities.

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2112089
> 
> 
> 
> BD are getting a variant of MBT 2000 according to their own specifications so Pakistan is not a party in that deal, rather China. Specifications can be found on BD military forum regarding other details. AK is a different mbt than mbt 2000 having only external similarities.



MBT 2000 was a joint-venture between Pakistan and China (or did Pakistan enter only at the Al-Khalid Stage ?); so would Pakistan be getting a share of the profits if the MBT 2000 gets sold to BD or any other country in the world ?


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## asad71

nabil_05 said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2112089
> 
> 
> 
> BD are getting a variant of MBT 2000 according to their own specifications so Pakistan is not a party in that deal, rather China. Specifications can be found on BD military forum regarding other details. AK is a different mbt than mbt 2000 having only external similarities.



Thank you. Can you tell me about the turret mounted HMG? Is it remote controlled or the gunner has to come out to fire?


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## Dazzler

asad71 said:


> Thank you. Can you tell me about the turret mounted HMG? Is it remote controlled or the gunner has to come out to fire?



On AK, it is remote controlled but on MBT 2000/ VT-1A, gunner has to come out to fire it. It was one of major concerns for Peruvians because they wanted the remote version. Russian NSVT MG that allows remote firing, can be mounted on MBT 2000 if BD asks China.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3448.html

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## razgriz19

Armstrong said:


> MBT 2000 was a joint-venture between Pakistan and China (or did Pakistan enter only at the Al-Khalid Stage ?); so would Pakistan be getting a share of the profits if the MBT 2000 gets sold to BD or any other country in the world ?



China already had a tank called Type 96, Pakistan was intrested in that tank,but wanted different systems and engine as the chinese ones didn't satisfy the need of PA. Thus came Al-Khalid, a tank "based" on Type-96/MBT-2000. PA participated in the development of Al-khalid and every system installed inside the tank was as per PA requirment. Our contribution ended right there. 

The tank that china is selling it to BA is the same Type 96, but the systems will be chinese, OR as per Bangladesh army requirment.

So to answer your question
No, Pakistan wont be getting any share.

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## farhan_9909

Report progress on AKII?

will it be revealed in the ideas 2012?


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## Armstrong

razgriz19 said:


> China already had a tank called Type 96, Pakistan was intrested in that tank,but wanted different systems and engine as the chinese ones didn't satisfy the need of PA. Thus came Al-Khalid, a tank "based" on Type-96/MBT-2000. PA participated in the development of Al-khalid and every system installed inside the tank was as per PA requirment. Our contribution ended right there.
> 
> The tank that china is selling it to BA is the same Type 96, but the systems will be chinese, OR as per Bangladesh army requirment.
> 
> So to answer your question
> No, Pakistan wont be getting any share.



So are you saying that the Al-Khalid is little more than a licensed production of a cross between an MBT-2000 and a Type 96 ? Did we not contribute anything significant in the development phase besides what should go where !


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## farhan_9909

Armstrong said:


> So are you saying that the Al-Khalid is little more than a licensed production of a cross between an MBT-2000 and a Type 96 ? Did we not contribute anything significant in the development phase besides what should go where !



Go through the same thread and you will knw the contribution of HIT and specially the requirement of PA and their extensive tests.

All the chineese tanks(EXCEPT THE LATEST HEAVIER TYPE99A2) ARE BASED ON soviet legacy design of being lighter,heavy firepower and mobility

AK is absed on soviet legacy as well

bt the AKII would be something totally indegenous to Pakistan.with indegenous design.medium weight.heavy fire power and mobility

As per NAbil
the Ak2 will have everything indegenous including FCS,APs,armour and other thing.though the engine will be ukrainian 6td-3 1500 BHP.

expected entry in 2014-15-16

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## razgriz19

Armstrong said:


> So are you saying that the Al-Khalid is little more than a licensed production of a cross between an MBT-2000 and a Type 96 ? Did we not contribute anything significant in the development phase besides what should go where !



well not precisely. since almost all the equipment had to be replace by the new one, the tank needed many modifications (designing process). PA contributed by sending engineering teams to china to help re-design the tank. And PA also created facilities in HIT so that production can begun in Pakistan. 
PA engineers were involved in every step of the development, main reason was we invested a lot of money into this project. And the only way we could build this thing on our own was only possible if we knew the tank inside out. So the teams had to be there throughout the R&D process!

And because of the experience gained by this project, we were able to upgrade older type 59s or so on to Al-Zarrar on our own!

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## Desert Fox

razgriz19 said:


> China already had a tank called *Type 96*, Pakistan was intrested in that tank,but wanted different systems and engine as the chinese ones didn't satisfy the need of PA. Thus came Al-Khalid, a tank "based" on *Type-96*/MBT-2000. PA participated in the development of Al-khalid and every system installed inside the tank was as per PA requirment. Our contribution ended right there.



I thought AK was "based" on Type-90II MBT-2000.


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## Dazzler

razgriz19 said:


> well not precisely. since almost all the equipment had to be replace by the new one, the tank needed many modifications (designing process). PA contributed by sending engineering teams to china to help re-design the tank. And PA also created facilities in HIT so that production can begun in Pakistan.
> PA engineers were involved in every step of the development, main reason was we invested a lot of money into this project. And the only way we could build this thing on our own was only possible if we knew the tank inside out. So the teams had to be there throughout the R&D process!
> 
> And because of the experience gained by this project, we were able to upgrade older type 59s or so on to Al-Zarrar on our own!



Type 96 has nothing to do with Type 90 because it is a further modification of the second generation type 85, whereas, type 90 was the first third generation platform designed initially by China and during 87-90, pakistan stepped in with their own requirements for the next gen MBT to be used by Pak Army. The same Type 90 also formed the basis of Chinese third generation designs like type 98 and 99s. This gave birth to the Type 90 MBT which was further modified into Type 90-2 and then Type 90-2M, which, after four prototypes, developed for Pak Army evaluation and export, became AlKhalid MBT. No matter how much modifications the Type 96A, B, G may have seen, it is still a second generation MBT having the flaws and strengths of its root MBT i.e. Type-85. We already have Type-85IIAP or Type-85III in service for 20+ years which we also manufactured locally until the requirements fulfilled.

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## Manticore

please go through the first page of this thread ... and ask questions after reading all the qoutes .. hopefully most of the questions would end up being answered



> via nabil
> Second generation evolved into........
> 1. type-85> 85II> 85 III (85IIAP)> t-88> 88C> Type 96, finally 96G...
> 
> 2. Third generation began from Type-90> 90II> 90IIM> MBT2000. What is needed to understand here is, Type 90 is a third gen mbt that has off springs in shape of mbt 2000, AK, type 98, 99, 99A, 99G etc. Now type 96 is still a second gen tank that is heavily revamped version of baseline type 85-II, III and eventually ended up as the most advanced SECOND Generation Chinese MBT type 96G.

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## razgriz19

nabil_05 said:


> Type 96 has nothing to do with Type 90 because it is a further modification of the second generation type 85, whereas, type 90 was the first third generation platform designed initially by China and during 87-90, pakistan stepped in with their own requirements for the next gen MBT to be used by Pak Army. The same Type 90 also formed the basis of Chinese third generation designs like type 98 and 99s. This gave birth to the Type 90 MBT which was further modified into Type 90-2 and then Type 90-2M, which, after four prototypes, developed for Pak Army evaluation and export, became AlKhalid MBT. No matter how much modifications the Type 96A, B, G may have seen, it is still a second generation MBT having the flaws and strengths of its root MBT i.e. Type-85. We already have Type-85IIAP or Type-85III in service for 20+ years which we also manufactured locally until the requirements fulfilled.



Thanks for clearifying that up!
but the only reason i said type 96 was because the outer shell of the tank looks very similar to Al-Khalid. I did not say anything about the systems though. I Know everything Inside Al-khalid is tailored to PA's requirment.


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## Wright

Is this tank in the same class as Russia's T90?


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## Dazzler

Wright said:


> Is this tank in the same class as Russia's T90?



read the thread from 1st page


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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> hmmmm.yes they belond to same class..even weight almost the same
> 
> bt the latest Ak1 is on par with the latest variant of t-90(MS).
> 
> Ak1 is far better than the t-90 bhisma with india(1000Hp engine and inferior to the latest t-90)
> 
> Ak1 has a bustle autoloader like the Oplot of ukraine..so it can fire long rod penetrator..which is in t-90 case


Does some one has new information of AK 2 or some pictures or related Stuff ?


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## asad71

We now know BA is mounting the remote controlled NATO calibre 12.7x99 mm .50 cal HMG on the turret. Russian HMGs were not selected. These HMGs are being manufactured locally at BOF (BD Ordnance Factory).


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## Dazzler

good news for BD armed forces, MBT 2000 is always a better option than any type-96 variant, no matter how much modified it is. 96xxx is ideal for a 2nd tier mbt, but not as a front line one.


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## ironman

nabil_05 said:


> good news for BD armed forces, MBT 2000 is always a better option than any type-96 variant, no matter how much modified it is. 96xxx is ideal for a 2nd tier mbt, but not as a front line one.



What if Type-96 can accomadate all new generation equipments with some compromise..? And moreover if check BD's procurement of tanks, they never wanted a heavy tank. 

By the way two weeks back Norinco unveiled brand new Type-96, with true 3rd generation capabilities. 

The Chinese Defence Company NORINCO unveils new main battle tank VT2 at DSA 2012 1804124 - Army Recognition


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## alimobin memon

Wright said:


> Is this tank in the same class as Russia's T90?



Yes However t90M maybe little superior but Alkhalid I has new ERA Bricks maybe that can make them in same class , FYI T90M not yet in Service in large numbers when it is really , Alkhalid II will be Introduced


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## Dazzler

ironman said:


> What if Type-96 can accomadate all new generation equipments with some compromise..? And moreover if check BD's procurement of tanks, they never wanted a heavy tank.
> 
> By the way two weeks back Norinco unveiled brand new Type-96, with true 3rd generation capabilities.
> 
> The Chinese Defence Company NORINCO unveils new main battle tank VT2 at DSA 2012 1804124*-*Army Recognition



Theoretically it is possible to accommodate similar systems in it but this will go only to an extent because 96 is essentially designed as a 2nd generation tank, its overall size and dimensions will remain the same, a more powerful engine cannot be accommodated, neither the basic frame be changed, modular ERA can be added but basic composite armor thickness cannot be changed, if any of this was possible, Chinese would have done it a long time ago. Type 90 was designed as a plug and play model from the start. By reading this very thread and other resources on Chinese MBT development, we realize that type-90 was essentially the true future, giving birth to 90IM, AK, MBT 2000, VT1A, and type 98 (also based on a further modified type-90 frame with increased armour and more powerful engine), continued in type 99XXX series. The latest model, Type 99B, is based on type-90/MBT 2000/ hull and turret.



alimobin memon said:


> Yes However t90M maybe little superior but Alkhalid I has new ERA Bricks maybe that can make them in same class , FYI T90M not yet in Service in large numbers when it is really , Alkhalid II will be Introduced



This point has been discussed many a times and please do not make this x v.s y thread.

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## Donatello

Hi,

Where do the current Al-Khalid numbers stand?

Also, we have seen many IR sensors on tanks, and we can see their optics/lenses. How do you protect these? Like if a rocket hit that, it would be blown up? So you will lose your laser system right?

Just like if destroy your antenna, no more communications.

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## Dazzler

Donatello said:


> Hi,
> 
> Where do the current Al-Khalid numbers stand?
> 
> Also, we have seen many IR sensors on tanks, and we can see their optics/lenses. How do you protect these? Like if a rocket hit that, it would be blown up? So you will lose your laser system right?
> 
> Just like if destroy your antenna, no more communications.



Current AK/ AK1 number is a closely guarded secret but last i heard, they were more than 400. Modern MBT sensors are protected by laser and infrared threat detectors/ sensors and laser shot counters that tell the mbt crew of where and when the mbt is/ was/ being lased. There are other measures that are a part of incoming threat detection but i cannot comment on them.

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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> Current AK/ AK1 number is a closely guarded secret but last i heard, they were more than 400. Modern MBT sensors are protected by laser and infrared threat detectors/ sensors and laser shot counters that tell the mbt crew of where and when the mbt is/ was/ being lased. There are other measures that are a part of incoming threat detection but i cannot comment on them.



Hi,

No i meant, what protection is offered to these sensors? Like they are exposed on the tank, right? So for example, the laser range finder needs it's laser/lenses pointed somewhere, but how do you protect these sensors themselves? Like is the glass bullet proof???


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## asad71

ironman said:


> What if Type-96 can accomadate all new generation equipments with some compromise..? And moreover if check BD's procurement of tanks, they never wanted a heavy tank.
> 
> By the way two weeks back Norinco unveiled brand new Type-96, with true 3rd generation capabilities.
> 
> The Chinese Defence Company NORINCO unveils new main battle tank VT2 at DSA 2012 1804124*-*Army Recognition



Tanks for integral Infantry Divisions would have to be medium weight tanks because of our terrain. However, MBT-2000s are for cross border offensive ops. The terrain just across our border can take heavy armor.


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## Dazzler

little offtopic but it is interesting, South Sudanese type 96 destroyed Sudanese t-72s....even the turret is blown up!






















Donatello said:


> Hi,
> 
> No i meant, what protection is offered to these sensors? Like they are exposed on the tank, right? So for example, the laser range finder needs it's laser/lenses pointed somewhere, but how do you protect these sensors themselves? Like is the glass bullet proof???



Vision blocks are made up of bullet proof glass, and are laser and IR protected, part of the mbt integrated self protection system. (AK series),

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## farhan_9909

info regarding the 6dt3 engine for AKII
from a poster of ukrainian to upgrade indian tanks with ukrainian engine

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...19689_100000563411528_1574610_423381792_o.jpg

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## Manticore

reuploaded it on a different server

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## Arsalan

Oleh Shevchenko, Chargé d'affaires Embassy of Ukraine has informed the media that Ukrainian companies will takepart in the modernization project of the Al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT) of the Pakistan Army.

Oleh Shevchenko said, "We will continue co-operation in developing technology for manufacturing military hardware, first of all in shape of Al-Khalid Project".


Upgraded Al Khalid MBT with combination of new armor and optional Explosives Reactive Armor (ERA) can withstand all known 120mm and 125mm rounds.* Upgrade also includes improved transmission and electronic turret control for the Al Khalid Tanks.* Tank also offers improved protection for the NBC (Nuclear, Biological & chemical) warfare.

Pakistani Al Khalid Tanks are equipped with Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and new active threat-protection system. Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has also increased Al Khalid's weapon carrying capability and now it will be able to carry 49 125mm HEAT & APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) and Naiza 125 mm DU rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.

Read more: Modernization of Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank (MBT) ~ Pakistan Military Review

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## Bratva

New photo of Al Khalid reveals some new upgrades.


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> New photo of Al Khalid reveals some new upgrades.



which photo are you referring to?


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## Manticore

mafiya said:


>


http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...32489-al-khalid-mbt-photos-videos-thread.html

should these 2 threads be merged? the initial pages wont be affected as i posted that thread a month later

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## Farooqi1

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...32489-al-khalid-mbt-photos-videos-thread.html
> 
> 
> 
> should these 2 threads be merged? the initial pages wont be affected as i posted that thread a month later



Good Looking piece of equipment. where could I find more pictures? I guess in the photos thread?


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## farhan_9909

nothing new i guess

we need pictures of AL KHALID I


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## scorpion-rouge35

hello

confirmation for Al-Khalid in the Moroccan army and the number aquis?


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## PWFI

scorpion-rouge35 said:


> hello
> 
> confirmation for Al-Khalid in the Moroccan army and the number aquis?



Akhi Al-khalid n'as jamais était offert a l'armé marocaine, c'est surement le MBT-2000.


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## Nishan_101

I think HIT should have produced it in number like 1100 in first Phase and then 1100 of Block-IIs and now 1100 of the Block-IIIs and Zarrar's too as a second line of defence.


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## Luftwaffe

Nishan_101 said:


> I think HIT should have produced it in number like 1100 in first Phase and then 1100 of Block-IIs and now 1100 of the Block-IIIs and Zarrar's too as a second line of defence.



I think HIT is modernizing the current ones AK/AK-I heavily to be much more capable then the opposition before funds are allocated for AK-II...


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## Dazzler

Luftwaffe said:


> I think HIT is modernizing the current ones AK/AK-I heavily to be much more capable then the opposition before funds are allocated for AK-II...



i have heard that AK2 prototype has been developed and is under testing but this is just about it. Sources are tightly lipped and information is curtailed. AKs are being brought to the AK1 standard for some time, motive is to standardize the AK fleet with equal lethality and punch.

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> i have heard that AK2 prototype has been developed and is under testing but this is just about it. Sources are tightly lipped and information is curtailed. AKs are being brought to the AK1 standard for some time, motive is to standardize the AK fleet with equal lethality and punch.



Mate, may I ask 2 questions : 

1) Is the Al-Zarrar upgradation still going on or has it been stopped in favour of utilizing our already scare resources for the Al-Khalid Program ? i.e the AK-1s, the AK upgradation to AK-1s and the development costs for the AK-2.

2) Can some of the better technologies utilized on the AKs be devolved back to the Al-Zarrar program or is the difference of generation/class/type between the two far too broad to allow for such a devolution barring the one or two odd thing !

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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Mate, may I ask 2 questions :
> 
> 1) Is the Al-Zarrar upgradation still going on or has it been stopped in favour of utilizing our already scare resources for the Al-Khalid Program ? i.e the AK-1s, the AK upgradation to AK-1s and the development costs for the AK-2.
> 
> 2) Can some of the better technologies utilized on the AKs be devolved back to the Al-Zarrar program or is the difference of generation/class/type between the two far too broad to allow for such a devolution barring the one or two odd thing !



1. AZ is also upgraded when needed, it already efficient ballistic computer developed with Krauss Mafei of Germany (Leo-2 ballistic computer manufacturer), thermal imager and other sensors and heavy composite and ERA armour, able to withstand numerous hits.

2. AK and AZ use similar composite and modular armour, only difference is the thickness and placement tough AK-1 has more efficient package than AZ. AZ is designed and developed to be on par with T-80ud in performance and battle efficiency whereas AK is much better then T-80 and all other mbts in PA, one can call it, "Cream of the Corps" in Pak Army.

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## Desert Fox

nabil_05 said:


> Current AK/ AK1 number is a closely guarded secret but last i heard, they were more than 400. Modern MBT sensors are protected by laser and infrared threat detectors/ sensors and laser shot counters that tell the mbt crew of where and when the mbt is/ was/ being lased. There are other measures that are a part of incoming threat detection but i cannot comment on them.



A senior Pakistani member by the name of XYON once mentioned that Al-Khalid has no laser threat detection/warning system and that the indigenous threat detection system failed? Something to do with the director of HIT?

Also has PA officially acquired the KOMBAT Tank launched Anti Tank Missiles from Ukraine? If so then do we have them with ToT? If so then are our Al-Khalids able to fire the KOMBAT AT Missile?


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## Dazzler

I cant discuss on what Xyon mentioned, perhaps he knows more on the Laser Threat detectors but to me this sounds odd because LTS and LWS are pretty much standard sytems in today's mbts. 

Kombat was inducted with TOT arrangement, we are making them in-house, AK can fire at least three types of missiles, AT-11, Kombat and an undisclosed version.

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## Desert Fox

nabil_05 said:


> I cant discuss on what Xyon mentioned, perhaps he knows more on the Laser Threat detectors but to me this sounds odd because LTS and LWS are pretty much standard sytems in today's mbts.



Here's the post in the thread started by XYON:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...d-corps-serious-deficiencies.html#post2000915



nabil_05 said:


> Kombat was inducted with TOT arrangement, we are making them in-house, AK can fire at least three types of missiles, AT-11, Kombat and an undisclosed version.


Glad to know, that KOMBAT is one deadly Missile that packs a serious punch, and the one thing that makes it unique is that when fired from Tank the laser is not pointed at the target rather its pointed at the tail of the Missile therefore not triggering enemy laser threat detection/countermeasure system so the enemy won't even know what hit him!

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## Dazzler

here is a good read on PAk tanks, though it is old but gives you an idea how good our mbts were in 7 years ago...

Pakistani Tanks

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## Dazzler

we have and are receiving plenty of hightech goodies from Ukraine and they have helped us to a great deal in modernizing our mbt armour. The indigenous armour for AK and AZ shares technologies from Nozh armour, although their general performance is better than Nozh.

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## Rafi

nabil_05 said:


> we have and are receiving plenty of hightech goodies from Ukraine and they have helped us to a great deal in modernizing our mbt armour. The indigenous armour for AK and AZ shares technologies from Nozh armour, although their general performance is better than Nozh.

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## Nishan_101

I am sure that KRL and air weapons complex can built anti tank weapons which might be Laser/IR guided on their own.


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## Windjammer

Guys, click on the link below and check out the tubes/pipes appear to be sticking out of Al-Khalid, or may be they are in the back ground.....can some one shed any light on the subject. 


http://ideaspakistan.gov.pk/download/ideas_brochure_2012.pdf


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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> Guys, click on the link below and check out the tubes/pipes appear to be sticking out of Al-Khalid, or may be they are in the back ground.....can some one shed any light on the subject.
> 
> 
> http://ideaspakistan.gov.pk/download/ideas_brochure_2012.pdf



I guess they are the snorkels for the crew and the engine, used when the tank passes through deep water...


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> we have and are receiving plenty of hightech goodies from Ukraine and they have helped us to a great deal in modernizing our mbt armour. The indigenous armour for AK and AZ shares technologies from Nozh armour, although their general performance is better than Nozh.


 
Didn't want to piss on your parade.. but there's limit to every thing.
Somehow you think Ukraine gave Pakistan the Nozh ERA and Pakistan made a better ERA out of it... lets see.






So called indigenous ERA on AK MBT of Pakistan... Note the thickness.
Now compare that with Ukrainian Nozh on their T-64B1




The Export version.





Now a simple question... which one would have more chance of breaking off the tungsten rod on impact ?.. think thiktank think.

Compare that with other MBTs like the top class K-5 on T-90.




Or the DRDO ERA(Based on K-5).. on T-72M1 Ajeya tanks.





And you rate AK to be above T-80... which is the main strike tank of the Russian Army... T-80Us of Russian Army is having the Relikt ERA even more heavier ERA offering much better protection..


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Didn't want to piss on your parade.. but there's limit to every thing.
> Somehow you think Ukraine gave Pakistan the Nozh ERA and Pakistan made a better ERA out of it... lets see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So called indigenous ERA on AK MBT of Pakistan... Note the thickness.
> Now compare that with Ukrainian Nozh on their T-64B1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Export version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a simple question... which one would have more chance of breaking off the tungsten rod on impact ?.. think thiktank think.
> 
> Compare that with other MBTs like the top class K-5 on T-90.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or the DRDO ERA(Based on K-5).. on T-72M1 Ajeya tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you rate AK to be above T-80... which is the main strike tank of the Russian Army... T-80Us of Russian Army is having the Relikt ERA even more heavier ERA offering much better protection..



seems like something hit you where it hurts alot. I know what i am talking about and it will be better for you not to shove your nose in things you have no idea such as Pak-Ukraine military cooperation since 1999. There has been plenty going on. By the way, did you know HIT and private company have been experimenting on composite and light weight yet resilient armour technology since 2001?, the one which is on AK-1 is better in general performance than nozh, by the way, when Russkies stopped the cast turret, Shtora APS and K5 ERA technology to be installed on our T-80ud, did you know what version did they install? Varta for Shtora, welded turret for cast ones and nozh for K5 armour. You will not find anything of this sort on the internet, but only when they appear in pics, till then, swallow the insights...

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## Dazzler

Even the Chezks were impressed, back in 2002....

Al Khalid


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## Edevelop

nabil_05 said:


> Even the Chezks were impressed, back in 2002....
> 
> Al Khalid



Hey Nabil, how different will be Al-Khalid 2?

Any pics/info?


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## Dazzler

general specs have been discussed but its mostly guess, no pics


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## Dazzler

a good read on t-80ud deal for pakistan...


THE UKRAINIAN T-84 for T-80 Standard Tank the Soviet Army's Last Armored Champion


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## Desert Fox

BTW, received this interesting Article from SomeBozo regarding the Saudi deal for Al-Khalids, the evaluation/testing of the tank and its overall performance:


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: (PNS) - A 23-member Royal Saudi Land Forces evaluation team headed by Maj Gen Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Shehri visited Pakistan for evaluation of indigenously manufactured products of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

The evaluation team was warmly welcomed by the Chairman HIT, who gave them an exhaustive briefing on the capability of HIT and its potential for marketing sophisticated weapon systems suiting the dictates of modern warfare.

The Saudi team showed keen interest in state-of-the-art and pride of Pakistan Armour, Al-Khalid tank and APC Saad, and carried out intensive in-house technical evaluation and trials.

During the arduous trials under most inhospitable environments, the roaring Al-Khalid, a marvel of tank technology performed astoundingly well. It is for the first time that a Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology.

Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results. The lethality and accuracy of the weapon stations of Al-Khalid, its high power to weight ratio and manoeuvrability demonstrated in the most hostile terrain speaks volumes of its agility and combat capability to challenge any tank of the world.

Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.

The delegation was highly impressed with the performance of tank Al-Khalid and APC Saad during arduous trials. The new generation, APC Saad of Pakistan Armed forces has also been totally manufactured in Pakistan with a vision to meet the demands of 21st century battlefield.

Pakistan is rightfully proud of its engineers and technicians who envisioned, designed and manufactured such combat multipliers, giving its Armed Forces the power punch and capability to face any challenge to its national security.

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showth...-Cooperation-amp-Sales-–-IX&p=39628#post39628

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## The SC




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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> seems like something hit you where it hurts alot. I know what i am talking about and it will be better for you not to shove your nose in things you have no idea such as Pak-Ukraine military cooperation since 1999. There has been plenty going on. By the way, did you know HIT and private company have been experimenting on composite and light weight yet resilient armour technology since 2001?, the one which is on AK-1 is better in general performance than nozh, by the way, when Russkies stopped the cast turret, Shtora APS and K5 ERA technology to be installed on our T-80ud, did you know what version did they install? Varta for Shtora, welded turret for cast ones and nozh for K5 armour. You will not find anything of this sort on the internet, but only when they appear in pics, till then, swallow the insights...



... I expect a similar reply....

Gave you something to think about... and you couldn't do that... that ERA on Al Khalid is a Chinese ERA tile.
Dimensions
250x250x28(square tiles) wight 4.9kg
375x250x28(longer tiles) wight 6.9kg
And is good against HEAT.

Other draw backs are large size(which leaves a large area unprotected once hit).
There are other heavier Chinese ERA which are as 85mm and works well against APFSDS aswell as tandem warhead.

Sorry but Pakistani T-80UD were sold out the old reserves of Ukrainian Army... they might have added other equipment such as shtora which is a jammer and certainly NOT an APS.

K-5 is out of your league... same for Nozh both are totally different set of ERA with different work mechanism.. both not there on Pakistani tanks... I showed you the photo and proved it Its your turn to prove me wrong with solid facts... till then you can sing praises about your secret undercover co-operation and magical lightweight Armour to your fellows.

Thanks


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## Dazzler

Here you go "Mr. Knowledge is internet"....


Sorry MODs for being a little off topic but this is important and gives us a rare insight that we have the Nozh ERA tech....finally ONE internet source that confirms what i have been saying for a while... 


Ukrainian military designer Col Vasyl Khytryk has said the Ukrainian tank protection system Nizh is superior to all foreign analogues, including Russian ones. In an interview with the English-language version of the Ukrainian Defense-Express military journal, Khytryk said the system was developed after Ukraine had secured a big contract for tank deliveries to Pakistan. Describing the system, he said it could be installed on a variety of foreign tanks. Ukraine is looking for potential customers both for the Nizh and a similar system called Zaslin. The following is the text of an interview with Khytryk in English, entitled "Why Nizh is necessary to the tank", and published in the No 1-2 issue of the Defense-Express journal on 31 January; subheadings inserted editorially:
The explosive reactive armour (ERA) system called Nizh [Russian: Nozh, English: Knife] allows protection against every type of antitank ordnance, in the first place armour-piercing sub-calibre shells and striking-nucleus-type impact rounds that attack tanks from the upper hemisphere. Previously, that kind of effect had been beyond the capabilities of any of the off-the-shelf examples of ERA systems. How was the Nizh developed? What makes it so unique? What kind of new tank protection technologies are Ukrainian military designers working on now?
Answers to those and more questions were given in an interview with the Defense-Express military news agency by Col Vasyl Khytryk, chief designer at the Microtech base centre for critical technologies, and once an employee with the armoured equipment research and testing centre in [Russia's] Kubinka.
Nizh developed to pull off Pakistani tank deal
[Khytryk] *The project to develop an explosive reactive armour system that is now known as Nizh (Knife) was launched in 1997-98 as part of an effort to supply a consignment of T-80UD tanks under a contract with Pakistan. Russia, in the person of the Moscow-based Scientific Research Institute of Steel had reservations about that contract, saying the tanks being supplied to Pakistan were equipped with an ERA system one of whose elements, the 4C22, &#8230;*



http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-20245068_ITM

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## Desert Fox

The SC said:


>


What does this picture have to do with Al-Khalid info?


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Here you go "Mr. Knowledge is internet"....
> 
> 
> Sorry MODs for being a little off topic but this is important and gives us a rare insight that we have the Nozh ERA tech....finally ONE internet source that confirms what i have been saying for a while...
> 
> 
> Ukrainian military designer Col Vasyl Khytryk has said the Ukrainian tank protection system Nizh is superior to all foreign analogues, including Russian ones. In an interview with the English-language version of the Ukrainian Defense-Express military journal, Khytryk said the system was developed after Ukraine had secured a big contract for tank deliveries to Pakistan. Describing the system, he said it could be installed on a variety of foreign tanks. Ukraine is looking for potential customers both for the Nizh and a similar system called Zaslin. The following is the text of an interview with Khytryk in English, entitled "Why Nizh is necessary to the tank", and published in the No 1-2 issue of the Defense-Express journal on 31 January; subheadings inserted editorially:
> The explosive reactive armour (ERA) system called Nizh [Russian: Nozh, English: Knife] allows protection against every type of antitank ordnance, in the first place armour-piercing sub-calibre shells and striking-nucleus-type impact rounds that attack tanks from the upper hemisphere. Previously, that kind of effect had been beyond the capabilities of any of the off-the-shelf examples of ERA systems. How was the Nizh developed? What makes it so unique? What kind of new tank protection technologies are Ukrainian military designers working on now?
> Answers to those and more questions were given in an interview with the Defense-Express military news agency by Col Vasyl Khytryk, chief designer at the Microtech base centre for critical technologies, and once an employee with the armoured equipment research and testing centre in [Russia's] Kubinka.
> Nizh developed to pull off Pakistani tank deal
> [Khytryk] *The project to develop an explosive reactive armour system that is now known as Nizh (Knife) was launched in 1997-98 as part of an effort to supply a consignment of T-80UD tanks under a contract with Pakistan. Russia, in the person of the Moscow-based Scientific Research Institute of Steel had reservations about that contract, saying the tanks being supplied to Pakistan were equipped with an ERA system one of whose elements, the 4C22, &#8230;*
> 
> 
> 
> Article: Designer praises Ukrainian tank protection system. | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy



It doesn't say it was supplied.

Many new developments were made in Ukrainian Tank industry after Russia embargoed it following the deal with Pakistan.
Such as a Bustle-autoloader system/wielded turret/modular Armor to name a few... hardly any of these were seen on T-80UDs of Pakistan Army.

Again T-80UDs of Pakistan Army.
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info





Compare that with Ukrainian Bulat equipped with Nozh.





Again your claim is proven false here.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> It doesn't say it was supplied.
> 
> Many new developments were made in Ukrainian Tank industry after Russia embargoed it following the deal with Pakistan.
> Such as a Bustle-autoloader system/wielded turret/modular Armor to name a few... hardly any of these were seen on T-80UDs of Pakistan Army.
> 
> Again T-80UDs of Pakistan Army.
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare that with Ukrainian Bulat equipped with Nozh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again your claim is proven false here.



Most ERA blocks are manufactured as per the user requirements, NOZH cannot be necessarily be small, neither ERA must always be meduim sized. Your argument is simply mute and you are on an ego shot. I ca show you AK with K-5 ERA blocks, similar to what is standard ERA on most AK-1, but later all were removed and local ERA are modified. The prototype AK also had various ERA versions for different trials.
Now when your bubble is totally busted, go to sleep...or i will give you more nightmares

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Now when your bubble is totally busted, go to sleep...or i will give you more nightmares



Bhai thoraaa ur bubble burst kar do because I'm as confused as *Darky* ! Were those JVs or were they solely Ukrainian projects ?


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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Bhai thoraaa ur bubble burst kar do because I'm as confused as *Darky* ! Were those JVs or were they solely Ukrainian projects ?



Nozh is exclusively a Ukrainian product, what has been given to Pakistan is a finished ERA module but Ukrainians also offered to help us develop our own mbt armour. We were already working with Chinese on various configurations so Ukrainian help has added more quality to existing ERA/ armour technology. What we on AK1 is better than what we had on T80ud and this is where Ukrainian help must be appreciated.

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Nozh is exclusively a Ukrainian product, what has been given to Pakistan is a finished ERA module but Ukrainians also offered to help us develop our own mbt armour. We were already working with Chinese on various configurations so Ukrainian help has added more quality to existing ERA/ armour technology. What we on AK1 is better than what we had on T80ud and this is where Ukrainian help must be appreciated.


]

Mate how strong is Pakistan-Ukraine military to military relations would it be able to withstand any would-be sanctions imposed on us by the US after 2014 ?


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Most ERA blocks are manufactured as per the user requirements, NOZH cannot be necessarily be small, neither ERA must always be meduim sized. Your argument is simply mute and you are on an ego shot. I ca show you AK with K-5 ERA blocks, similar to what is standard ERA on most AK-1, but later all were removed and local ERA are modified. The prototype AK also had various ERA versions for different trials.
> Now when your bubble is totally busted, go to sleep...or i will give you more nightmares



Each ERA has its own size... yes small but smaller in thickness means reduced ability against HEAT and equivalent to no ability against tandem and certainly no ability against APFSDS.
How will that one inch of explosive cut a tungsten rod travelling at 1600m/s ?

ERA shape or I should say dimension depends on the places it needs to cover on the tank... there are 2-3 different sets of dimension which are made by the manufacturer... I showed you the export version of Nozh on a T-64E in some earlier photo... thats still thicker than any ERA Pakistani tanks are having.

I would like to see your different ERA versions... on Al Khalid.


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## Dazzler

This should put an end to the Nozh debate.......Here is the complete version of the article i posted in reply to Darky's post.....


© 2004 The British Broadcasting Corporation [date of publication]. All Rights Reserved. No material may be reproduced except with the express permission of The British Broadcasting Corporation. 

Ukrainian military designer Col Vasyl Khytryk has said the Ukrainian tank protection system Nizh is superior to all foreign analogues, including Russian ones. In an interview with the English-language version of the Ukrainian Defense-Express military journal, Khytryk said the system was developed after Ukraine had secured a big contract for tank deliveries to Pakistan. Describing the system, he said it could be installed on a variety of foreign tanks. Ukraine is looking for potential customers both for the Nizh and a similar system called Zaslin. The following is the text of an interview with Khytryk in English, entitled "Why Nizh is necessary to the tank", and published in the No 1-2 issue of the Defense-Express journal on 31 January; subheadings inserted editorially: 

The explosive reactive armour (ERA) system called Nizh [Russian: Nozh, English: Knife] allows protection against every type of antitank ordnance, in the first place armour-piercing sub-calibre shells and striking-nucleus-type impact rounds that attack tanks from the upper hemisphere. Previously, that kind of effect had been beyond the capabilities of any of the off-the-shelf examples of ERA systems. How was the Nizh developed? What makes it so unique? What kind of new tank protection technologies are Ukrainian military designers working on now? 

Answers to those and more questions were given in an interview with the Defense-Express military news agency by Col Vasyl Khytryk, chief designer at the Microtech base centre for critical technologies, and once an employee with the armoured equipment research and testing centre in [Russia's] Kubinka. 

Nizh developed to pull off Pakistani tank deal 

[Khytryk] The project to develop an explosive reactive armour system that is now known as Nizh (Knife) was launched in 1997-98 as part of an effort to supply a consignment of T-80UD tanks under a contract with Pakistan. Russia, in the person of the Moscow-based Scientific Research Institute of Steel had reservations about that contract, saying the tanks being supplied to Pakistan were equipped with an ERA system one of whose elements, the 4C22, was of Russian design. For that system the Russian side demanded a huge sum in royalties that would equal almost 10 per cent of the entire contract value. By that time Ukraine had accumulated enough ideas of its own. So a decision was taken to create an explosive reactive armour system that would be of entirely Ukrainian design. To order from the Defence Ministry of Ukraine and in partnership with the Morozov design bureau in Kharkiv (who in fact came out as customers in that project), a fundamentally new ERA system had been developed within a very short period of time. In 2003, by the defence minister's decree, the ERA system that we designed was commissioned and commercialized by a factory near Kiev. 

[Correspondent] How much money did it take to develop that system? 

[Khytryk] The Defence Ministry only covered half of the costs. The remainder came from designer companies involved in the project, first and foremost the Morozov design bureau. Interdepartmental trials, too, had to be conducted at the cost of participating companies. 

Nizh profiled 

[Correspondent] What makes this system so unique? 

[Khytryk] The system works on the principle of the directed concentrated effect of individual speciality charges contained by the Nizh module on an antitank projectile that hits tank armour. Once the projectile hits an ERA module, a pin-point blasting of individual charges takes place to destroy the projectile. Employing the principle of directed destructive effect allowed the creation of an explosive reactive armour system that efficiently destroys incoming ordnance, no matter what type of charge it may carry - armour-piercing rounds or hollow-charge shells or striking-nucleus-type impact shells. The ERA system that we've designed is equally efficacious against Soviet-era-vintage projectiles and Western-designed ones. On top of that, the new-generation Nizh ERA modules that are accommodated in specialized Morozov-designed sections mounted on the outside of the tank allow it to keep adjacent ERA modules intact, thereby increasing the entire system's survival by 200 to 300 per cent. In case of earlier versions of ERA systems, subject to destruction were considerable numbers of adjacent modules that were not directly hit by an incoming projectile. There were occasions of about 50 per cent of ERA modules on the given side of the tank being destroyed by an explosion resulting from a projectile hitting just one module on the same side of the tank. That meant to say that, for that side of the tank (tank body or front or turret), the protection system was nonrecoverable. 

Russian competitors lagging behind 

[Correspondent] Is the Ukrainian-designed ERA system better than Russia's? 

[Khytryk] At the present time, Russia employs ERA systems with 4C20 and 4C22 elements that provide reliable protection against non-tandem-type hollow-charge projectiles. But in case of armour-piercing sub-calibre rounds, that system is impotent. Neither does it save from striking-nucleus-type impact rounds. As far as we know, the Scientific Research Institute of Steel is conducting research and development on a general-purpose ERA system to be known as KontaktV. That system would provide reliable protection against armour-piercing sub-calibre shells, like the 105-mm M833 or 120-mm M829, as well as hollow-charge rounds T0W-2 and T0W-2A. The Russian institute offers us cooperation in research and development on a general-purpose second-generation ERA system that would be highly efficacious against armour-piercing sub-calibre shells (120-mm M829A2) and hollow-charge rounds (HOT-3 or SADARM). We have achieved this level already, and manufacture the ERA system Nizh in commercial quantities. We also are working on a project to develop a multi-layer built-in ERA system that would provide protection against prospective types of shells. In that effort we are at least five years ahead of our Russian counterparts. 

[Correspondent] Have the Russians showed any interest in acquiring the Nizh? 

[Khytryk] No official suggestions or requests have come from Russia. Though, in private conversations some degree of interest has been shown indeed. They apparently consider themselves pioneers in that type of work, and therefore, do not deem it necessary to communicate with others working in this field. As for us, we equip the T-84 tank with an ERA system that provides parameters that they (the Russians) are so far from attaining that they are just offering cooperation in developing an equivalent system to foreign partners. 

Foreign analogues 

[Correspondent] How efficient is the Ukrainian system compared with foreign-designed equivalents? 

[Khytryk] Neither the German Leopard-2, nor the American Abrams M1A2, nor the British Challenger 2 are comparable with the ERA system. The French have an ERA system of their own. It is worse noting that the French Leclerc that is in service in the army of the United Arab Emirates has been adjusted to carry an ERA system, yet the system as such is yet to be installed on the tank. We estimate that by its performance parameters the French-designed ERA system is no better than the Soviet-designed system with the 4C20 element. 

[Correspondent] What about the Merkava tank of Israel? 

[Khytryk] The Israelis were the first to put an explosive reactive armour system onto a tank and test it in combat operations in the early 1980s. The result surpassed all expectations. Development work on ERA systems were pioneered by the Soviet Union. Yet, die to some subjective reasons, ERA systems had never emerged on Soviet tanks: there were some high-ranking commanders in the Soviet armed forces who warned they would never tolerate a tank in a shell of explosive. For that matter it should be pointed out that the ERA system for tanks in Israel, and subsequently in more countries, was only designed to provide protection against hollow-charge shells, as at the time that kind of ordnance was the most powerful anti-tank weapon. But the situation changed in the mid-1980s with the emergence of box-frame armour-piercing sub-calibre kinetic energy (KE) rounds (like DM-23 or M-111). Those projectiles - which over time have become the principal anti-tank weapon - pierce the tank armour to a depth that is practically equal to their own core. Besides, tandem-type hollow-charge shells have come to be employed to counter ERA protection. This brought about a challenge to provide protection against that type of rounds. And that challenge has been successfully handled in Ukraine. 

Commercial prospects 

[Correspondent] Is the Nizh fit for mounting onto the Polish tank PT-91 that is bound for export to Malaysia? 

[Khytryk] Yes, it is. We had meetings with Polish officials, and conducted a few rounds of negotiations. They have their own ERA system with its own parameters. But the thing is that the Polish do not believe it practicable to create an ERA system that would be potent enough to protect against an armour-piercing sub-calibre projectile. During a trial conducted at a proving ground in Ukraine in April 2002, we "neutralized" a Mango-type Soviet-made 125-mm sub-calibre shell fired from 100 meters, and in May 2003 we demonstrated our system in the United Arab Emirates in a duel with a 120-mm French-made armour-piercing sub-calibre round. 

[Correspondent] What is the demand for the Nizh? 

[Khytryk] You know, the road is long from advertising to selling. We demonstrated that system to Turkish military commanders at a firing ground here in Ukraine in 2002, during a competition for a contract to supply tanks to Turkey. Though, for the time being, talks on the sale of the system as such and the Ukrainian tank as a whole have been rather difficult. We received inquiries from the UAE about the possibility of installing the ERA system onto the Leclerc tank which they have in their inventory. That tank has already been adjusted to carry an ERA protective system. So no trouble is bound to crop up there. But there is one but: installing an ERA system on the Leclerc previously requires getting the go-ahead from the French. The Leclerc tanks operated by the UAE's army are with an indefinite guarantee of free service. That means that the tank cannot have any of its parts, even a bolt, replaced. There is fear the French will never agree to the Leclerc's being fitted out with our ERA system. 

A certain amount of interest is being shown in a project to develop an ERA system for light-weight armoured combat vehicles. The challenge is to provide protection against 20-30-mm gun shells and anti-tank grenades. One of the subtypes of the Nizh system provides efficient protection against 23-mm and 30-mm rounds called MAR as well as PG-7 and PG-9 grenades. 

[Correspondent] Does that mean that we are now able to offer our ERA systems for installation onto Soviet-designed armoured infantry fighting vehicles RMP-3? 

[Khytryk] Yes, that's true. But first we have to work out a concept of protection for light-weight armoured combat vehicles and test it. For the time being, such a concept in pure form is nonexistent. We are looking for investors, conducting negotiations on creating that variant of protective system. We have some ideas, and are going to solve that problem within the next 12 months. 

[Correspondent] Are you going go supply the Nizh to Pakistan? 

[Khytryk] Negotiations are in progress with many countries. As far as Pakistan is concerned, they have recently bought new tanks, and, from our perspective, it now does not make economic sense to replace existing ERA systems on the vehicles. An enhanced version of the T-55 tank with the Nizh ERA protective system has recently been demonstrated in Turkey. 

Domestic demand 

[Correspondent] Is an explosive active armour system for tanks available to Ukraine? 

[Khytryk] Not yet. The explosive active armour called Zaslin [Russian: Zaslon, English: Barrier] is now being developed to order from the Ukrinmash firm with funds provided by the Immersion company. That system is designed to protect stationary facilities or entities in motion from anti-tank projectiles with flat or diving trajectories fired using whatever type of sighting systems or guns. That system is without an analogue in the world. Most importantly, in contrast to the existing Russian-designed explosive active armour systems Drozd and Arena, the Zaslin provides protection against artillery shells with velocities of up to 1,200 metres per second. One more very important defining feature of the Zaslin is that is can be interfaced with an explosive reactive armour system. Neither the Drozd nor the Arena is capable of that, as they both are designed for accommodation on the tank turret, leaving no room for an ERA system there. Because those two systems are impotent in providing protection against armour-piercing shells, the vehicle, instead of obtaining better protection as designed, becomes even more vulnerable. 

[Correspondent] When will the work on the Zaslin be finished? 

[Khytryk] Now we are in serious preparations for testing that system in field conditions. We estimate that the Zaslin would be ready for full-rate production in the not very distant future. Elements comprising the system will be of entirely Ukrainian make. 

[Correspondent] Are there any orders for the technology from the Defence Ministry of Ukraine? 

[Khytryk] Thus far, there are no orders. But they at the Defence Ministry are thinking seriously about advancing research work in this field. Much interest in the Zaslin system is being shown on the part of the Americans. The military of China want to obtain that technology as well, yet in parts. They are working with a number of Ukrainian companies, meaning to obtain a radar. There have been no contacts with the Chinese thus far concerning the explosive active armour system. China is known to have been engaged with Pakistan in a large-scale project for the manufacture of the Al-Khalid tank there. We might be able to penetrate the Chinese market precisely by way of that project. The more so because that project already involves Ukrainian-made products in big enough amounts (engine-transmission blocs, optics). So issues of common concern and common interest are already there to stay.


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...6-20245068_ITM



Armstrong said:


> ]
> 
> Mate how strong is Pakistan-Ukraine military to military relations would it be able to withstand any would-be sanctions imposed on us by the US after 2014 ?




While our military industry has come of an age and designing/ producing our own AFVs with sophisticated technologies, Pakistan Ukraine military relations are quite deep, remember it was Pakistan that gave them their largest military sale and a respectable recognition in global arms market. Ukrainians respect this deeply so they are ever ready to co-operate with us most of the times. In fact, we have been co-operating for last 12-15 years! Lastly, we got the T-80uds during the sanction period.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> This should put an end to the Nozh debate.......Here is the complete version of the article i posted in reply to Darky's post.....
> 
> http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...6-20245068_ITM


 
Good I would like to see improved Al Khalid with a much better ERA... If possible equivalent to Nozh at present it too-exposed against Kinetic rounds aswell as tandem warhead rounds... aswell as a bustle mounted auto-loader large enough to fire long rod penetrators... and some more punch in the Gun.


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## Dazzler

Buddy, i tell you that the gun which is a Pakistani modified version of Ukrainian KBA-3 gun, developed with French assistance is already too powerful to drill through many famous.....u know 

here is more co-operation, most likely for AK-2....



Modernisation of Al-Khalid tank: Ukraine to provide technical cooperation to Pakistan: envoy | Business Recorder

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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Good I would like to see improved Al Khalid with a much better ERA... If possible equivalent to Nozh at present it too-exposed against Kinetic rounds aswell as tandem warhead rounds... aswell as a bustle mounted auto-loader large enough to fire long rod penetrators... and some more punch in the Gun.



AK1 with improved indigenous ERA, notice the thickened sideskirts too...


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7813/alkhalidi2.jpg


http://i49.tinypic.com/9jqedi.jpg

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## Dazzler

Chinese Type 99B is based on MBT 2000.....

Imageshack - 55212476201103032132054.jpg

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> AK1 with improved indigenous ERA, notice the thickened sideskirts too...
> 
> 
> http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7813/alkhalidi2.jpg
> 
> 
> http://i49.tinypic.com/9jqedi.jpg



Its is not clear.. but the ERA appears to be the 35mm version of what is there on present Al Khalid.
The improved side skirts would possibly have thinner ERA on it aswell much like T-90.


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Buddy, i tell you that the gun which is a Pakistani modified version of Ukrainian KBA-3 gun, developed with French assistance is already too powerful to drill through many famous.....u know
> 
> here is more co-operation, most likely for AK-2....
> 
> 
> 
> Modernisation of Al-Khalid tank: Ukraine to provide technical cooperation to Pakistan: envoy | Business Recorder



Whats th chamber pressure of the gun.. and are trying to increase the barrel length on next variant(may be 50cal as in Type-99 later variants)
Longer gun would have far better muzzle speed... but something has to be done with accuracy factor of Al Khalid... good mobility but not as accurate.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Whats th chamber pressure of the gun.. and are trying to increase the barrel length on next variant(may be 50cal as in Type-99 later variants)
> Longer gun would have far better muzzle speed... but something has to be done with accuracy factor of Al Khalid... good mobility but not as accurate.



How did you come to conclusion that AK gun has poor accuracy? It is not based on 2a46/ m series, rather, on the KBA series which has very good accuracy. it is too early to speculate on gun calibre but it could be 50 or even 52 cal, however, current gun has shown pretty good accuracy and sufficient pressure to hit targets as far as 4km with minimum effect on barrel quality so i think they might even retain the 48 cal as well. Just speculation on gun calibre though.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> How did you come to conclusion that AK gun has poor accuracy? It is not based on 2a46/ m series, rather, on the KBA series which has very good accuracy. it is too early to speculate on gun calibre but it could be 50 or even 52 cal, however, current gun has shown pretty good accuracy and sufficient pressure to hit targets as far as 4km with minimum effect on barrel quality so i think they might even retain the 48 cal as well. Just speculation on gun calibre though.



I saw it in some trail video... some time back... It was missing targets by quiet some distances.. both wile stationary aswell as moving.
Besides the gun, the FCS and gun stabilization system is also important.. suspension also matters in this case.
Al Khalid turret is small so I doubt It can handle the recoil of a 52 cal. gun and shoot accurately enough....(ARDE Gun on Arjun is 52 cal.).. rather It should go for 50 cal. gun as is the case with Newer Chinese Type-99 tanks... Leo2A6 I must say is very accurate while in stationary mode... while T-90 has shown better accuracy while on move.. (If you see the Saudi tests where T-90S beat all the others in flying colors).


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## Dazzler

http://202.83.164.25/wps/wcm/connec...a2bc&CACHEID=ff36230046e2f03bafabbf9f7921a2bc


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## Dazzler

Aorak mk.1 & mk.2 explosive reactive armour developed by KRL for AK, AK1, AZ, Type 59M etc, known to have been tested against 120 mm and 125 mm tank ammunition particularly, APFSDS, HE-FS, tandem and shaped charges, hollow charges, has successfully defeated all threats. (Pakistan)

Institute of Industrial Control Systems AORAK Mk 1 explosive reactive armour (Pakistan) - Jane's Armour and Artillery Upgrades


http://search.digitalreasoning.com/WBIL/02/WBIL2005_38798.txt

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## Dazzler

Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories AORAK Mk 1 Explosive Reactive Armour 
Date Posted: 22-May-2003 

Development / Description 

The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories, well known for the design, development and production of missile and rocket systems, have developed the AORAK Mk 1 explosive reactive armour (ERA) system to improve the combat survivability of tanks and armoured fighting vehicles against attack from Chemical Energy (CE) projectiles. 
So far, the Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories have developed three different sizes of ERA modules to meet different user requirements. 
They are known as Type A, B and C and differ only in their size. Each module consists of two thin steel plates between which the explosive is inserted. This in turn is inserted in a box which is then bolted on to the hull or turret of the vehicle. 
Efforts have also been made &#8203;&#8203;to reduce the risk of accidental detonation of the ERA modules by small arms fire, shell fragments and lightning strikes as well as reducing the sympathetic detonation of surrounding ERA modules. 
This armour system is claimed to have a shelf-life of 10 years and an operational temperature range of -40 to +52 º C. 


Specifications 

Type A 
Type B 
Type C 

Size 
305 × 305 mm 
229 × 229 mm 
152 × 152 mm 

Weight 
16 kg 
9 kg 
8 kg 

Weight of explosive sheet 
1.2 kg 
0.75 kg 
0.35 kg 

Status 

Development complete. Believed to be in low-rate production for the Pakistan Army for installation on Type 59, 69 and 85 series MBTs. Late in 2000, Pakistan showed the Al Khalid and Al Zarra MBTs fitted with ERA over their frontal arc. At this stage, the source of this ERA is not known. Al Khalid is now entering production for Pakistan with 315 to be built over a three year period.

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## Nishan_101

Really feeling good to see that KRL is doing R&D and I hope that they will do more n more in Materials as well. INSHA ALLAH.


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## Arsalan

nabil_05 said:


> Buddy, i tell you that the gun which is a Pakistani modified version of Ukrainian KBA-3 gun, developed with French assistance is already too powerful to drill through many famous.....u know
> 
> here is more co-operation, most likely for AK-2....
> 
> 
> 
> Modernisation of Al-Khalid tank: Ukraine to provide technical cooperation to Pakistan: envoy | Business Recorder



the Gun is being locally produced now at HMC and the PA and HIT are very much satisfied with its performance in terms of accuracy and life.
here are some details:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html#post2112089
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-type-90-iim-mbt-2000-information-pool-3.html

after the mentioned first batch of 50, the second batch have also been delivered and the third will be delivered in a months time.

regards!

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## [--Leo--]

Nishan_101 said:


> Really feeling good to see that KRL is doing R&D and I hope that they will do more n more in Materials as well. INSHA ALLAH.



on which product KRL is working on?

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## Arsalan

[--Leo--];3000712 said:


> on which product KRL is working on?



post from just the last page..


when you were posting this one you must have been on same page!!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...mbt-2000-information-pool-16.html#post2981564

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...mbt-2000-information-pool-16.html#post2999340

dear, no offense, but just trying to tell you that if you can take some time and check such things yourself, you are sure to learn a lot more then what you will by asking!
we are all herer to share and discuss but before asking something, try and check a few pages that they might have what you are looking for. asking straight questions will limit your knowledge while when you look for this yourself, you will learn a lot more interesting things!

i hope you take it as a brotherly message and nothing insulting.

best regards!


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## Thorough Pro

No it will not, you should be happy and share this "discovery" with DRDO and IA to use only APFSDS agist AK. Now go to sleep and yeah happy dreams.




DARKY said:


> How will that one inch of explosive cut a tungsten rod travelling at 1600m/s ?

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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> I saw it in some trail video... some time back... It was missing targets by quiet some distances.. both wile stationary aswell as moving.
> Besides the gun, the FCS and gun stabilization system is also important.. suspension also matters in this case.
> Al Khalid turret is small so I doubt It can handle the recoil of a 52 cal. gun and shoot accurately enough....(ARDE Gun on Arjun is 52 cal.).. rather It should go for 50 cal. gun as is the case with Newer Chinese Type-99 tanks... Leo2A6 I must say is very accurate while in stationary mode... while T-90 has shown better accuracy while on move.. (If you see the Saudi tests where T-90S beat all the others in flying colors).



Either your ego has been hurt big time or you are playing a plain fool deliberately. Let me answer you any way

The gun in original MBT 2000 is NOT based on 2a46m but a Chinese indigenous modification called ZPT-98, two versions, 48 cal, 50 cal, chrome plated and autofretaged allowing better accuracy than 2a46-m series, higher gun pressure and increased shell speed resulting in less time to reach the target with more accuracy. Ever heard of ISFCS-212 (Image Stabilized Fire Control System) fire control system? This system is purely developed for Chinese third generation MBTs and equips their type-99 series with powerful computer and stabilization characteristics mated with third generation stabilization techniques, despite its impressive performance during trials. Pakistan opted for her own FCS and gun development where French helped us in employing an automatic target tracking mechanism supported with their FCS and thermal imagers (catherine FC, Matis), signifying the corporation with France and Ukraine that were a blessing in disguise.

AK turret is bigger than anything Russia has produced so far so there is not point in saying it cannot handle the recoil of 52 cal, for your information, AK prototypes have been tested with upto 52 cal guns (125/ 120 mm both versions). Enlarged turret, which has given enough room for a complete panoramic surveillance with hunter-killer capability by allowing separate laser range finders, thermal imagers for both gunner and commander, ever notice the large turret in latest t-90MS? The weakest point of T-90 is its lack of 360 degree surveillance capability which was pointed out by Indians repeatedly until Russians came up with a new development. Lastly, Saudi tank gunner also achieved 100 % accuracy during AK trials, you can find the information on it in this very thread. Now take some rest from raising useless points.

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Either your ego has been hurt big time or you are playing a plain fool deliberately. Let me answer you any way
> 
> The gun in original MBT 2000 is NOT based on 2a46m but a Chinese indigenous modification called ZPT-98, two versions, 48 cal, 50 cal, chrome plated and autofretaged allowing better accuracy than 2a46-m series, higher gun pressure and increased shell speed resulting in less time to reach the target with more accuracy. Ever heard of ISFCS-212 (Image Stabilized Fire Control System) fire control system? This system is purely developed for Chinese third generation MBTs and equips their type-99 series with powerful computer and stabilization characteristics mated with third generation stabilization techniques, despite its impressive performance during trials. Pakistan opted for her own FCS and gun development where French helped us in employing an automatic target tracking mechanism supported with their FCS and thermal imagers (catherine FC, Matis), signifying the corporation with France and Ukraine that were a blessing in disguise.
> 
> AK turret is bigger than anything Russia has produced so far so there is not point in saying it cannot handle the recoil of 52 cal, for your information, AK prototypes have been tested with upto 52 cal guns (125/ 120 mm both versions). Enlarged turret, which has given enough room for a complete panoramic surveillance with hunter-killer capability by allowing separate laser range finders, thermal imagers for both gunner and commander, ever notice the large turret in latest t-90MS? The weakest point of T-90 is its lack of 360 degree surveillance capability which was pointed out by Indians repeatedly until Russians came up with a new development. * Lastly, Saudi tank gunner also achieved 100 % accuracy during AK trials, you can find the information on it in this very thread.* Now take some rest from raising useless points.



Nabil, then why didn't Saudi Arabia procure the Tanks ?


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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Nabil, then why didn't Saudi Arabia procure the Tanks ?



it has more to do with politics than the actual capability..

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## Manticore

Desert Fox said:


> BTW, received this interesting Article from SomeBozo regarding the Saudi deal for Al-Khalids, the evaluation/testing of the tank and its overall performance:
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: (PNS) - A 23-member Royal Saudi Land Forces evaluation team headed by Maj Gen Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Shehri visited Pakistan for evaluation of indigenously manufactured products of Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).
> 
> The evaluation team was warmly welcomed by the Chairman HIT, who gave them an exhaustive briefing on the capability of HIT and its potential for marketing sophisticated weapon systems suiting the dictates of modern warfare.
> 
> The Saudi team showed keen interest in state-of-the-art and pride of Pakistan Armour, Al-Khalid tank and APC Saad, and carried out intensive in-house technical evaluation and trials.
> 
> During the arduous trials under most inhospitable environments, the roaring Al-Khalid, a marvel of tank technology performed astoundingly well. It is for the first time that a Main Battle tank (Al-Khalid) attained 100% hits at a distance of 4,000 meters and set an unprecedented record in tank technology.
> 
> Al-Khalid also fired while moving, on a moving target at various ranges upto a distance of 3,000 meters and achieved 100% results. The lethality and accuracy of the weapon stations of Al-Khalid, its high power to weight ratio and manoeuvrability demonstrated in the most hostile terrain speaks volumes of its agility and combat capability to challenge any tank of the world.
> 
> Saudi Master Gunner, Subedar Major Yahya Bin Ahmed Atif achieved the rare feat of hitting a bulls eye at extreme ranges with 100% accuracy and achieved record firing results with a few days training only, indicative of user friendliness of Tank Al-Khalid.
> 
> The delegation was highly impressed with the performance of tank Al-Khalid and APC Saad during arduous trials. The new generation, APC Saad of Pakistan Armed forces has also been totally manufactured in Pakistan with a vision to meet the demands of 21st century battlefield.
> 
> Pakistan is rightfully proud of its engineers and technicians who envisioned, designed and manufactured such combat multipliers, giving its Armed Forces the power punch and capability to face any challenge to its national security.
> 
> Defense Cooperation & Sales  IX


 
ive posted s.a and peruvian reqiurements earlier on this thread

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## Manticore

nabil , is there a jpg version of this pdf you posted? Like the scanned HIT brochure by bezerk.. which has been circulated every where on the internet

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION


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## farhan_9909

so the present
i meant the indigenous main gun is 50 cal.?


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## alimobin memon

POST_HUMAN_WAR said:


> Can you explain this in further details sir.:coffee
> 
> 
> you mean something like this



its type 90-IIA 
Massive era is suicidal

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## ANG

alimobin memon said:


> its type 90-IIA
> Massive era is suicidal


 
Hi, I would tend to disagree with your statement. Kindly please look at the new Chinese MBT 3000 design. The entire front turret is ERA.

China's Norinco New MBT-3000 Tank ~ ASIAN DEFENSE

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/Main_Battle_Tank_3000.jpg


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## farhan_9909

no i want the picture of AORAK era on AK

or any bt the tank should be in service with PA

the turret of this new mbt-3000 looks good

expecting such or atlay kinda turret on.AK2


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## alimobin memon

ANG said:


> Hi, I would tend to disagree with your statement. Kindly please look at the new Chinese MBT 3000 design. The entire front turret is ERA.
> 
> China's Norinco New MBT-3000 Tank ~ ASIAN DEFENSE
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/Main_Battle_Tank_3000.jpg



My friend , ERA helps in defending a tank be reacting with projectile and creating an opposing blast to neutralise the impact effect of projectile... But in modern world tanks use more of Chrobam, composite armouse , mesh plating etc. There are several incidents in which when projectile hits tank ERA reacts however slightly weakens the main armour of that place ... which is dangerous at the other hand with so much much era on the above MBT 2000 near by tanks can get destroyed due to massive explosion of ...


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## alimobin memon

ANG said:


> Hi, I would tend to disagree with your statement. Kindly please look at the new Chinese MBT 3000 design. The entire front turret is ERA.
> 
> China's Norinco New MBT-3000 Tank ~ ASIAN DEFENSE
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/Main_Battle_Tank_3000.jpg


it's an export variant of MBT 2000 with an increase in engine horse power that's what i see... Where as era u say well ERA is useless if tank is not equipped with a better primary armour .... Even Tandem RPG 29 can destroy ERA or any tandem charge ... i cant go deep in .. read tandem charges...

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## ANG

alimobin memon said:


> it's an export variant of MBT 2000 with an increase in engine horse power that's what i see... Where as era u say well ERA is useless if tank is not equipped with a better primary armour .... Even Tandem RPG 29 can destroy ERA or any tandem charge ... i cant go deep in .. read tandem charges...


 
Hi, not to get personal, but are you an expert in tank design? You seem to be great at critiquing stuff. Is your background engineering, more specifically in armoured vehicle design? 

I have visited Taxila and the tank rebuilding plant; Pakistan builds the best stuff, within what its limited resouces allow it to.


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## alimobin memon

ANG said:


> Hi, not to get personal, but are you an expert in tank design? You seem to be great at critiquing stuff. Is your background engineering, more specifically in armoured vehicle design?
> 
> I have visited Taxila and the tank rebuilding plant; Pakistan builds the best stuff, within what its limited resouces allow it to.



MBT 3000 is an improved variant of mbt 2000's export variant VT1-A ... I think you didn't got my point. Incorporating ERA on tank is an extra bricks to provide excellent protection but if whole tank is equipped with ERA it sometimes gets dangerous at the rear especially because it reacts with an blast in opposite direction of coming projectile even if projectile is not powerful it will react with ERA . at the other hand Tandem round like RPG 29 they have two stages to work. First stage destroy's ERA as ERA one's reacted ,that era brick gets weakened, the other stage of RPG 29 tandem round penetrates the primary armour, so for example M1A2 tank firing tandem on T-72 fully ERA protected is useless cause first stage of M1 tank will destroy which is weak part of round . The second stage wipes the tanks ASSSS . So I am saying is all tanks have ERA on their whole body in almost top 12 militaries, Real protection is whether alkhalid, Arjun or others have a good main armour inside so that it can withstand the round of tandem... FYI Alkhalid has a good main armour.

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## Arsalan

farhan_9909 said:


> so the present
> i meant the indigenous main gun is 50 cal.?


 


farhan_9909 said:


> any picture of AK or AK1 with massive era



hello brother,
yes, the indigenous main gun, being made in HMC is 0.50 cal. visited HMC this Saturday.

*Al-Khalid Tank ERA:*












farhan_9909 said:


> no i want the picture of AORAK era on AK
> 
> or any bt the tank should be in service with PA
> 
> the turret of this new mbt-3000 looks good
> 
> expecting such or atlay kinda turret on.AK2


Alkhalid Tank turret without ERA, it have slanted front section and low profile






regards!


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## Desert Fox

Is this the MBT 3000??


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## POST_HUMAN_WAR

Desert Fox said:


> Is this the MBT 3000??


Yes


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## VelocuR

Desert Fox said:


> Is this the MBT 3000??



http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...layed-new-mbt-3000-tank-eurosatory-event.html

It doesn't look difference from MBT 2000/Al Khalid.

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## Desert Fox

RaptorRX707 said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...layed-new-mbt-3000-tank-eurosatory-event.html
> 
> It doesn't look difference from MBT 2000/Al Khalid.



The difference is that its ERA is in block casings that form a modular type armor, much like the Leopard 2A7's.

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## alimobin memon

Desert Fox said:


> The difference is that its ERA is in block casings that form a modular type armor, much like the Leopard 2A7's.


The major differences are ERA block casing and 1300 hp engine... Alkhalid armour has been improved than mbt 2000 , vt1A and original alkhalid .... Alkhalid 1 in pakistan army is already inducted in good numbers i dont know why we dont find the info on AK1


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## Dazzler

uncooled thermal imager is a weakness in MBT 3000, much like previous Chinese MBTS, due a lack of proper cooling mechanism, it fails to work properly under extreme temperatures, original M-1 abramhad an uncooled imager which gave poor results in Thar region. Otherwise it is an efficient improvement over basic VT-1A.....

Cooled versus uncooled - thermal imaging cameras for long-range surveillance | Security News - SourceSecurity.com


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## alimobin memon

nabil_05 said:


> uncooled thermal imager is a weakness in MBT 3000, much like previous Chinese MBTS, due a lack of proper cooling mechanism, it fails to work properly under extreme temperatures, M-1 has an uncooled imager which gave poor results in Thar region. Otherwise it is an efficient improvement over basic VT-1A.....
> 
> Cooled versus uncooled - thermal imaging cameras for long-range surveillance | Security News - SourceSecurity.com


does pakistan's alkhalid have cooled thermal imager?


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> does pakistan's alkhalid have cooled thermal imager?



Not only cooled, but high quality thermal imagers 

2nd generation cooled TI= Catherine FC, Thetis (AK, AZ, T-85, T-80ud)

3rd generation cooled TI= Sagem Matis (AK, AK-1)

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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> *Nabil*, I have no idea what half of the things on this thread are and the other half I probably only heard so a noob question if you will : Is the Al-Khalid capable enough to stand her ground against some of the best Tanks out there ? And by best I'm talking about the Merkavas, the A1A2s, the T-90s, the Leo 2s ! Or are such comparisons ludicrous and that a Tank's effectiveness is determined by certain other dynamics - area of operations and the sort ?
> 
> And 2) Have the Chinese inducted anything into their MBTs by the improvements that our boys came up with when customizing the MBT-2000 into the Al-Khalids for us ?



Hunter Killer system is a capability that allows an mbt to look around 360 degree battlefield and track and engage enemy on earliest basis. This technology has been the focal point in modern western MBT philosophy and today all modern western, some easternbts have this capability. Soviet/ Russian and even early Ukrainian mbts lacked this function. T-72, T-80 and even T-90S does not have this but Chinese T-98/99 series DO have it. Hunter Killer consists of independent commander and gunner thermal imagers, laser range finders, and an auto tracking facility. This capability is further aided with an advanced Battle Management System, allowing the tank crew a more comprehensive battlefield awareness. 

Regarding engaging Merks, M1A2s, i do not see any reason why AK cannot engage them with efficient HK and day night capabiliity with a powerful gun and ammunition, not to mention the missile firing ability with tandem warheads. This is why it is so important to see first-engage first and where panoramic sight and HK comes in to equation. 

Chinese have been impressed by our thermal imager integration, efficient 6td2 engine and auto transmission, and BMS integration so early and they have opted for the same in their new 99A, 99B series, MBT 3000 series. 

MBTs with Hunter Killer function:

AK, AK-1 series (PAK)
Oplot, T-84U series (Ukraine)
M1A2 series (US)
Challenger2 series (UK)
Merkava 3, 4 series (Israel)
Leopard 2A,4,5,6 series (Germany)
Type-90, Type-10 series (Japan)
K1A1, K2 BP series (SK)
T-90M (portable BMS device) (Russia)
T-90MS (Russia)
Leclerc (France)

Tanks without Hunter Killer 

T-64, 72, T-80 and 90S series (Russia, Ukraine)

T-84 basic (Ukraine)

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## Armstrong

*Nabil* : Thanks yaar ! I appreciate it !

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## alimobin memon

nabil_05 said:


> Hunter Killer system is a capability that allows an mbt to look around 360 degree battlefield and track and engage enemy on earliest basis. This technology has been the focal point in modern western MBT philosophy and today all modern western, some easternbts have this capability. Soviet/ Russian and even early Ukrainian mbts lacked this function. T-72, T-80 and even T-90S does not have this but Chinese T-98/99 series DO have it. Hunter Killer consists of independent commander and gunner thermal imagers, laser range finders, and an auto tracking facility. This capability is further aided with an advanced Battle Management System, allowing the tank crew a more comprehensive battlefield awareness.
> 
> Regarding engaging Merks, M1A2s, i do not see any reason why AK cannot engage them with efficient HK and day night capabiliity with a powerful gun and ammunition, not to mention the missile firing ability with tandem warheads. This is why it is so important to see first-engage first and where panoramic sight and HK comes in to equation.
> 
> Chinese have been impressed by our thermal imager integration, efficient 6td2 engine and auto transmission, and BMS integration so early and they have opted for the same in their new 99A, 99B series, MBT 3000 series.
> 
> MBTs with Hunter Killer function:
> 
> AK, AK-1 series (PAK)
> Oplot, T-84U series (Ukraine)
> M1A2 series (US)
> Challenger2 series (UK)
> Merkava 3, 4 series (Israel)
> Leopard 2A,4,5,6 series (Germany)
> Type-90, Type-10 series (Japan)
> K1A1, K2 BP series (SK)
> T-90M (portable device) (Russia)
> T-90MS (Russia)
> 
> 
> Tanks without Hunter Killer
> 
> T-64, 72, T-80 and 90S series (Russia, Ukraine)
> 
> T-84 basic (Ukraine)



Even cheap 75% T-72 of Iraq's arsenal had direct hit but there firepower could not penetrate the abrams, Alkhalid will definitely have great ratio of direct hit and reasonable kill ratio.


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> Even cheap 75% T-72 of Iraq's arsenal had direct hit but there firepower could not penetrate the abrams, Alkhalid will definitely have great ratio of direct hit and reasonable kill ratio.



Asad Babil (Iraqi t72) was a downgraded version of a standard T-72 that had everything monkeyed about it from its gun which was although 125 mm smoothbore but had horrible accuracy and gun pressure was not sufficient to provide enough shell velocity. There were many drawbacks found in engine and transmission by Americans who gave a few test rides in remaining T-72. Even the shells provided were downgraded from standard Soviet shells and the worst part was the armour which was even thinner than an M-60A. No wonder Abrams and Challies dominated a severely "downgraded" Asad Babil.

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## farhan_9909

the gun pressure of older gun was 5750

the new one being 50 cal. will have a pressure of 6250

we need a much powerfull gun with atleast 7000bars pressure

nabil bro can put light on this


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## alimobin memon

farhan_9909 said:


> the gun pressure of older gun was 5750
> 
> the new one being 50 cal. will have a pressure of 6250
> 
> we need a much powerfull gun with atleast 7000bars pressure
> 
> nabil bro can put light on this



6250 bar pressure is not enought for pentrating armour? isn't muzzle velocity the main reason of power of force to impact.

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## farhan_9909

IDEAS 2002

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## VelocuR

*Al Khalid* tank busy attacking on terrorists.

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## alimobin memon

RaptorRX707 said:


> *Al Khalid* tank busy attacking on terrorists.


That is Type 59 man not alkhalid

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## Arsalan

farhan_9909 said:


> well from an indian member i heard that There T-90 dnt have any LTS as of now..nor the latest ERA.
> 
> and he said apart from trishol you wont find any other source to prove the latest ERA claim


 


fox said:


> Its possible, i saw Indian army documentary Indian T-90s don't even have air condition.


 


farhan_9909 said:


> yes no air condition as well
> 
> i forgot the APS as well
> 
> these things are just in the list bt nt present on t90 bhisma



no offense brothers but lets try and keep this out of this thread.
the thread is well on track and is INFORMATION pool and bring up such points will make the Indian do what they do the best..
lets try and avoid trolling

regards!

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## Dazzler

In China, seems to be an MBT 2000/ AK variant with a modified/ enlarged turret, could be for PAk (unlikely as we are making them on our own) or BD?


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> 6250 bar pressure is not enought for pentrating armour? isn't muzzle velocity the main reason of power of force to impact.



Exactly, AK gun pressure is enough to tear almost every mbt armour in existence out there, during trials, it ripped ERA equipped undisclosed mbt! No further details can be given but gun pressure is more dependant on shell velocity and 6250 is excellent pressure by any standards. 

Here is an interesting post from Methos from defence forum india that sheds more light on the subject....


Read what I wrote above in post #2092. BM-42 has large caliber fins and an overall greater diameter -> this will lead to more friction/drag -> higher loss of velocity during flight. BM-42 has a fin diameter of 125 mm, while 120 mm APFSDS have allways less than 100 mm fin diameter.

"Also as written in "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" monobloc penetrators have a higher penetration capability - DM 33 is monobloc, BM-42 uses a two-part tungsten core.

In my opinion the problem with WITU is that they base their "facts" probably at different sources. I.e. Jane's claims that DM 43 has a pressure value of 5500 bar (550 MPa), while U.S. sources attribute the same round with a chamber pressure of 5800 bar... because they probably use another base for their values. Rheinmetall stated in the old DM 63 article that DM 53/63 has a chamber pressure of 5500 bar at 15°c (the same as DM43). It has been claimed on German forums that at very hot climates (60-70°c) DM 53 is coming very close to the peak pressure of the shorter L/44 gun (7100 bar). So unless the Americans can't fire their APFSDS in hot climates (like Egypt, Afghanistan or Iraq) - which has been proven to be wrong - the U.S. use another base pressure values at least on a different situation (maybe also for velocity, but we don't know anything more detailed about it). So the 5800 bar for M829A2 in the image in post #2094 above could be practical 5500 bar at 15°c as for DM43.
One indicator that the U.S. might base their pressure values on another situation is the testing of KEW-A2 rounds in Leopard 2 tanks - there on page 14 is a graph about the performance of KEW-A2 regarding the dependency of speed on temperature: Jane's claimed that KEW-A2 has a muzzle velocity of 1,700 m/s - this is reached at ~22-23°c (~75°F) and not at 15°c! At 15°c the muzzle velocity is only ~1,675 m/s."

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## Mav3rick

Guys, I just read about the *TROPHY Armour Protection System* for TANKS, used by Isreali Tanks. What are we doing for protection of our Al-Khalid Tanks?


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## XYON

Good Question!! We are doing absolutely NOTHING!!! Other than ERA, the tanks have no Laser Threat Sensors or any early warning systems that could give a chance for the crew to survive while being lazed in the battlefield. Until a round comes and hit the outer walls, the tank crews are literally sitting ducks in the modern battlefield. Thanks to the really ill-visioned leadership at the helm of affairs in the Armoured Corps Directorate at GHQ.



Mav3rick said:


> Guys, I just read about the *TROPHY Armour Protection System* for TANKS, used by Isreali Tanks. What are we doing for protection of our Al-Khalid Tanks?

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## farhan_9909

ERA over the top of turret.the ERA seem different than the older..might be the Local AORAK

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## Anotherangle

Mav3rick said:


> Guys, I just read about the *TROPHY Armour Protection System* for TANKS, used by Isreali Tanks. What are we doing for protection of our Al-Khalid Tanks?


Wikipedia says there is an advanced system present although it is not a comprehensive system like T90 tanks defense:
Al-Khalid tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> In China, seems to be an MBT 2000/ AK variant with a modified/ enlarged turret, could be for PAk (unlikely as we are making them on our own) or BD?




Turret is of the same size... there's an extra armor module instead of ERA... as on ZTZ-99.


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## alimobin memon

Alkhalid tank does not only have era , it has laser threat warning system and active protection system too ... Dont underestimate the tank However I have one question that Alkhalid AA gun can be operated from inside but i dont see the gun to be mounted on any rolling system rather than a small poll fixed :/ any one knows something about it ?



XYON said:


> Good Question!! We are doing absolutely NOTHING!!! Other than ERA, the tanks have no Laser Threat Sensors or any early warning systems that could give a chance for the crew to survive while being lazed in the battlefield. Until a round comes and hit the outer walls, the tank crews are literally sitting ducks in the modern battlefield. Thanks to the really ill-visioned leadership at the helm of affairs in the Armoured Corps Directorate at GHQ.



Please first research than say so ALKHALID is well protected with other systems too...


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## MilSpec

nabil_05 said:


> Exactly, AK gun pressure is enough to tear almost every mbt armour in existence out there, during trials, it ripped ERA equipped undisclosed mbt! No further details can be given but gun pressure is more dependant on shell velocity and 6250 is excellent pressure by any standards.
> 
> Here is an interesting post from Methos from defence forum india that sheds more light on the subject....
> 
> 
> Read what I wrote above in post #2092. BM-42 has large caliber fins and an overall greater diameter -> this will lead to more friction/drag -> higher loss of velocity during flight. BM-42 has a fin diameter of 125 mm, while 120 mm APFSDS have allways less than 100 mm fin diameter.
> 
> "Also as written in "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" monobloc penetrators have a higher penetration capability - DM 33 is monobloc, BM-42 uses a two-part tungsten core.
> 
> In my opinion the problem with WITU is that they base their "facts" probably at different sources. I.e. Jane's claims that DM 43 has a pressure value of 5500 bar (550 MPa), while U.S. sources attribute the same round with a chamber pressure of 5800 bar... because they probably use another base for their values. Rheinmetall stated in the old DM 63 article that DM 53/63 has a chamber pressure of 5500 bar at 15°c (the same as DM43). It has been claimed on German forums that at very hot climates (60-70°c) DM 53 is coming very close to the peak pressure of the shorter L/44 gun (7100 bar). So unless the Americans can't fire their APFSDS in hot climates (like Egypt, Afghanistan or Iraq) - which has been proven to be wrong - the U.S. use another base pressure values at least on a different situation (maybe also for velocity, but we don't know anything more detailed about it). So the 5800 bar for M829A2 in the image in post #2094 above could be practical 5500 bar at 15°c as for DM43.
> One indicator that the U.S. might base their pressure values on another situation is the testing of KEW-A2 rounds in Leopard 2 tanks - there on page 14 is a graph about the performance of KEW-A2 regarding the dependency of speed on temperature: Jane's claimed that KEW-A2 has a muzzle velocity of 1,700 m/s - this is reached at ~22-23°c (~75°F) and not at 15°c! At 15°c the muzzle velocity is only ~1,675 m/s."



very informative..... excellent post

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## Rafi

*Solid State Autoloader*

*Modern warfare demands installation of robust control systems in main battle tank to enhance firepower and maneuverability. CARE has developed Solid State Autoloader for Pakistan Army main battle tank MBT Al-Khalid, replacing the Chinese Autoloader. The auto-loading mechanism consists of two subsections, the Motorized Mechanical Subsystem consisting of carousel magazine, hoister mechanism, ejection frame and window assemblies etc. Driven by several high power motors and solenoids along with mechanical proximity switches. The other part is the electric control subsystem, responsible for coordinated control of various operations carried out by the mechanical subsystem. 

The solid state Autoloader developed by CARE has eliminated the need for relay and utilizes the latest solid-state electronic devices to provide the control functionalities hence leading to most reliable system. 

Completely solid-state design with NO RELAYS
Design based on programmable logic, processor and FPGAs
100% compatible with Tank's existing mechanical design / mounting as well as the wiring harness and connectors
Bi-directional carousal motion leading to substantial reduction in the maximum loading time for the farthest ammo
Simultaneous display of the number of each ammo type (i.e. HE/HA/AP) present in carousel magazine along with the number of empty trays*







http://www.carepvtltd.com/cms.php?id=Solid_State_Autoloader

*Network Centric System

The NCS consists of a number of hierarchical command posts that receive and process information from different sensors. Timely availability of this information along with orders from the Command Post down to the weapon posts designated to engage a potentially hostile target is of prime importance. 

NCS caters for effective and secure command & control of weapons and resources. NCAWS enhances the decision-making ability and agility of Command by providing: 

Real time consolidated and fused situation awarness display at all command levels
Guaranteed communication between all nodes through a robust Auto-healing Data Communication Network
GIS based User Interface displaying information from the sensors and weapon inventory
Threat Evaluation and Weapons Assignment (TEWA) for effective firing
SConfigurable and customizable operation and administration order flow
Automatically compiled Reports at every level of command hierarchy


Utilizing all possible information sources integrated into NCAWS helps the Commander to:	

Plan and execute operations using the decision-aiding tools
Shorten operations planning time
Automatically record and replay all command, order and status data from any previous engagement for optimum analysis and review
Improve target detection probability, and
Utilize effective sensor data at all tiers for threat neutralization


GIS Based User Interface

In this NCW System, target are displayed at each tier of the command and control hierarchy. The tracks are disseminated and displayed according to the Area of Responsibility of the particular command and reporting unit. A Graphical User Interface (GUI) provides Geographical Information System (GIS) based multi-layer display capabilities, with the provision to enable/disable each layer independently.*






Sensor Data Xtracter & Target Tracking System

*To extract target information from different types of sensor, CARE has developed Sensor Data Extractor & Trackers for variety of sensors.*






*Horus

Horus is an integrated vehicle management system comprising of vehicle mounted GPS-based tracking devices, communicating over multiple networking technologies (GSM,GPRS, V-UHF, Satellite) in a hybrid environment and versatile multi-tier command and control infrastructure. It comprehensively addresses the problems of managing, tracking, monitoring and assisting any number of vehicles registered within the system. 

Components
Horus allows integration of different kinds of communication infrastructure including GPRS/SMS, HF/VHF/ UHF and Satellite modems for relaying GPS coordinates of a vehicle. This unique capability enables supervisor to monitor vehicle in all terrain and geographical location. The system comprises of wired and wireless gateways for consolidation, display and management of information. The system supports a multi-tier command and control infrastructure and provides authenticated access control at different level of echelons for operational purposes. Horus vehicle management system consists of the following components,
Central Command and Control Center
Static and Mobile Management Center
Tracking Device*






*Features
The system comes with host of configurable features. Any capability defined below can be disabled using system configuration utility at installation time from the command console. 

Situation awareness
Displaying GPS based update s and display of the registered vehicles to respective management center and central command and control center
Real-time status and generation of triggers for matters of concern
Tracking Device
Vehicle Management
Database for Recording and Replaying vehicles routes
Reports and returns with data fusion and consolidation
Preformatted and format free massages
Command and Control Console
Add-Del registration of vehicles in the system
Create multiple Domains and associate different vehicles to appropriate domain
Diversion and situational alerts
Geo-fencing defining, downloading and enforcing
Geographical Information System
Multi layers of Electronic Maps
Map manipulation Features
Zoom in, out, Pan, Rotate e.t.c
Navigation help with distance and speed calculation
Security
Multi Layers of security with state of the art encryption, authentication and key generation protocols*

http://www.carepvtltd.com/cms.php?id=Horus

*Elint

CARE has developed ELINT Threat Perception and Identification System for All kinds of Emitters offering: 
Broadband Coverage
High accuracy and sensitivity
Automatic and manual operating modes
Classifier for Automatic Emitter Recognition
GUI based Electronic Order of Battle*

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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> 1. Thats your opinion.. you must be a military service man to know more than those machine which you see live... and talk about it.
> 2. I showed the thin ERA tiles of Al Khalid(page 14-15).. I can mark out improper ERA covering(If you can't see for yourself.).
> Besides No APS has been found on any Al Khalid under the service of PA till date.



You are shouting for nothing, you have been proven wrong on Nozh Era issue so better not make false claims again. Reason for thin ERA covering is the thickness of conventional armour on AK and AK-1. More than 700 mm on turret without ERA and more than 600mm around glacis. VARTA is already in ACTIVE service but they are not going to show it for your sake. 23rd March parade has not taken place for three years now otherwise you would have seen it.

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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Jingoism aside.
> 
> Lack of knowledge or false knowledge is harmful... both for one self and others.
> When I proved there bis not Nozh ERA armor on any tank PA whatsoever means there isn't... you could not come with a single proof of even comparable ERA system on Pakistani T-80UD/Al Khalid tanks... while I showed you in picture that the ERA on T-80UD/Al Khalid is not Nozh.
> 
> The conventional armor on Al Khalid is NOT 700mm.... forget about glacis being 600mm not even M1A2/Leo2A6/Arjun have such a thick armor there.
> 
> VATRA is not an Active protection system(not hard kill neither soft kill)... It is a self protection Leaser jammer.. that too was only evaluated on Al Khalid... And is not there in service... Besides that using such a device makes the frontal armor weak as does shorta jamming eyes on T-90.
> 
> In-spite of all these Al Khalid doesn't become a bad tank... it still is a potent armor machine.



Did i even say VARTA is an APS with a HARD KILL capability? Stop making things up man, it is an APS which is present on AK as we speak.

read this for AK armour thickness

http://collinsj.tripod.com/protect.htm

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Did i even say VARTA is an APS with a HARD KILL capability? Stop making things up man, it is an APS which is present on AK as we speak.
> 
> read this for AK armour thickness
> 
> Tank Protection Levels


 
VATRA is in fact a self protection Leaser Jammer.. it doesn't have any other function... hence we cannot classify it as an APS(*Active* Protection System).

The link is speculation at best.. I can show at least 10 errors without making much effort.
And I thought that blogs aren't allowed here as link... or source for the claim.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> VATRA is in fact a self protection Leaser Jammer.. it doesn't have any other function... hence we cannot classify it as an APS(*Active* Protection System).
> 
> The link is speculation at best.. I can show at least 10 errors without making much effort.
> And I thought that blogs aren't allowed here as link... or source for the claim.



I can tell you with authenticity that 90% military discussions on many forums is nothing more than speculation and estimates. For example, fighter and other radar ranges vary to a great extent than what is publically known. The link i gave is a good estimation of plenty of information collected by the person in his own capacity, an effort worth appreciation. Neither do i have any issues with arguing with you but you keep raising issues that been discussed to death before. AK ERA thickness and protection levels and an absence of an APS? Bring something new at least because AK-2 is around the corner with plenty of eye candy.

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## TaimiKhan

DARKY said:


> Jingoism aside.
> 
> Lack of knowledge or false knowledge is harmful... both for one self and others.
> When I proved there bis not Nozh ERA armor on any tank PA whatsoever means there isn't... you could not come with a single proof of even comparable ERA system on Pakistani T-80UD/Al Khalid tanks... while I showed you in picture that the ERA on T-80UD/Al Khalid is not Nozh.
> 
> The conventional armor on Al Khalid is NOT 700mm.... forget about glacis being 600mm not even M1A2/Leo2A6/Arjun have such a thick armor there.
> 
> VATRA is not an Active protection system(not hard kill neither soft kill)... It is a self protection Leaser jammer.. that too was only evaluated on Al Khalid... And is not there in service... Besides that using such a device makes the frontal armor weak as does shorta jamming eyes on T-90.
> 
> In-spite of all these Al Khalid doesn't become a bad tank... it still is a potent armor machine.



I hope next time you won't ask others to keep aside their jingoism before you put aside yours. 

Here is an operational AK with the system which you just claimed was evaluated. This is an operational AK with a formation unit being displayed. 

Now after this i would say you self delete your jingoistic posts trying to show as if you working at HIT or are the designer of AK. 

And delete your self analysis posts which have no backing or technical support.








http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...nk-type-90-iim-mbt-2000-information-pool.html

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## alimobin memon

Is gun remote controlled ? and if AK has only armour in Glacis and Turret what protects the side and rear ? isnt the armour not much ?


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## ironman

TaimiKhan said:


> I hope next time you won't ask others to keep aside their jingoism before you put aside yours.
> 
> Here is an operational AK with the system which you just claimed was evaluated. This is an operational AK with a formation unit being displayed.
> 
> Now after this i would say you self delete your jingoistic posts trying to show as if you working at HIT or are the designer of AK.
> 
> And *delete your self analysis posts which have no backing or technical support.*



If this apply to all. Half of this thread will have to be deleted.

From Janes MBT 2000 (Al Khalid) (Pakistan) - Jane's Armour and Artillery


> The turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm.


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> Is gun remote controlled ? and if AK has only armour in Glacis and Turret what protects the side and rear ? isnt the armour not much ?



Go to google and search AK pics, you will see at least 10 different patterns of ERA blocks both on turret and glacis, not to mention extra thick side skirts on AK-1, many of these pics can be found on this thread alone, signifying the fact that armour can be increased or decreased as required. The 12.7 mm gun is remotely controlled.

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## Dazzler

Here is a good link posted by me few months ago..............




ANTIBODY said:


> HIT Al-Khalid
> 
> Notes: Also called the MBT-2000 (particularly during development), the Al-Khalid is touted as Pakistans first indigenous tank design, but is believed to incorporate much of its design from Type 90-IIs, Type 85s, and some other equipment supplied by China for analysis. Regardless of the origins of the Al-Khalid, it is essentially vehicle dissimilar enough to other tanks to be considered a new design, if not a completely independent one. The Al-Khalid was developed over the period from 1990-99, with production and fielding beginning in 2001. Most Western observers agree that the Al-Khalid is a surprisingly modern and effective design. Some 300 are in service with Pakistan, and they intend to being that total to 600. In addition, 22 Al-Khalids started being delivered to the Bangladeshi Army beginning in May 2008, and the Saudis are reportedly giving the Al-Khalid a hard look to supplement their M-1A2 Abrams tanks.
> 
> The design places the driver in the center front of the hull; he has a hatch which opens slightly upwards and to the left as to not interfere with turret rotation if the hatch is open. He has vision blocks giving him views to the right, left, and front; the frontal vision block can be replaced with an IR vision block. The gunner has his own hatch, as the Al-Khalid uses an autoloader instead of a loader crewmember, and has vision blocks that allow vision to the front, rear, and right side. The gunner is equipped with a full night vision suite, including a 2nd-generation thermal imager developed by France. The gunner also has an image intensification scope and a conventional telescopic sight; all of which are stabilized. The commander has his own thermal imager, image intensifier, and conventional telescopic sight, in a separate sensor head that gives the Al-Khalid a hunter-killer capability. The commander also has emergency controls for the main gun and coaxial machinegun. The Al-Khalid has a ballistic computer of French design, along with a laser designator of Chinese design.
> 
> The main gun is a version of the Chinese ZPT-98 gun, though the barrel has a length of 48 calibers. The gun is fed by an autoloader that has a capacity of 24 rounds, with additional ammunition being stored in the hull of the Al-Khalid. In addition to being able to fire indigenous and foreign 125mm rounds, the gun can also fire a Chinese license-produced version of 9M119 Reflecks (AT-11 Sniper) gun-launched ATGM. The autoloader is improved over that of the Al-Zarrar, able to handle newer long-rod penetrators. (ATGM rounds must be hand-loaded.) The laser rangefinder acts as a designator when the 9M119 ATGM is fired. The commanders machinegun can be aimed and fired from under armor. On each side of the turret is a cluster of five smoke grenade launchers. The Al-Kalid has a feature found in most of the newest generation of tanks: a battle management system called Rabhar by the Pakistanis. This is a computerized system that not only monitors the state of the tank and feeds the appropriate information to the crew, but also plots the location of enemy and friendly units and keeps them updated as new information becomes available. It also passes orders from higher headquarters down and allows the commander to give orders to subordinate units, as well as providing any other intelligence and information the commander may require. This system also has GPS, with inertial navigation as a backup. The tanks electronic systems are connected to large batteries for "silent watch" use.
> 
> In development, the Al-Khalid was powered by an MTU-396 diesel engine with a German LSG-3000 transmission. Germany placed an embargo on these items in the mid-1990s due to their stance on development of indigenous nuclear weapons, and this led to the Pakistanis fitting the Al-Khalid with a license-produced Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 1200-horsepower engine and a French SESM ESM-500 fully-automatic transmission. This engine had the virtue of being smaller than the German engine, yet provided the same 1200 horsepower. The Al-Khalid can carry auxiliary fuel tanks at the rear a la Russian/Chinese tanks, though in practice they are little used except in long road marches.
> 
> Armor protection is modular, allowing for quick battle damage repairs and improvement as more advanced armor becomes available or heavier armor is desired. Frontal armor is composite and of Pakistani design, with side armor being spaced; it is of a more modern design than that on the Al-Zarrar and lighter in weight. The turret front, turret sides, glacis, and hull sides have lugs for ERA. Attention was paid to land mine damage in the form of thickened floor armor. The ammunition is carried in armored bins, and virtually the entire vehicle has thick Kevlar anti-spalling blankets. The engine also has a thick bulkhead separating it from the crew compartment. An automatic explosion and fire suppression system is provided, and the crew has an NBC overpressure system; the engine compartment and ammunition bins have their own systems of the same sort. The Al-Khalid has a laser detection system that can automatically trigger smoke grenades to block the laser, and a radar warning system that can give the crew a chance to take evasive action.
> 
> Pakistani Tanks

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## farhan_9909

if we can manufacture a tank

so applying ERA over the tank wont be a big issue

bt most of the AK pictures are pre 2005-06..


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## Arsalan

DARKY said:


> The conventional armor on Al Khalid is NOT 700mm.... forget about glacis being 600mm not even M1A2/Leo2A6/Arjun have such a thick armor there.



*can you guide us what it actually is then??* 
i am sure you have MD HIT talking to you directly whom you can quote on this subject, or, any other links will help us understand this as well... 

Please do tell us about the ACTUAL THICKNESS of AK Armour!

regards!


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## DARKY

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *can you guide us what it actually is then??*
> i am sure you have MD HIT talking to you directly whom you can quote on this subject, or, any other links will help us understand this as well...
> 
> Please do tell us about the ACTUAL THICKNESS of AK Armour!
> 
> regards!



I gave an estimated account of the armor thickness in my previous post.
700mm is about the thickness of frontal armor on M1A1/Leo2A4.. and I don't think the turret of Al Khalid is as big.. and heavy.






Al Khalid turret is about half the size and weight.


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> I gave an estimated account of the armor thickness in my previous post.
> 700mm is about the thickness of frontal armor on M1A1/Leo2A4.. and I don't think the turret of Al Khalid is as big.. and heavy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al Khalid turret is about *half the size and weight*.


HOW do you know?
You are out to disprove a theory(lets call it that for your sake).. and have not presented anything to disprove it on an evidential basis other than guesstimates. 
What is the interior of the AK turrent like?
Where are the three plan views?
Where are the multiple photographs from different angles?

I am an engineer, not a scientist.. I work on what I can do and have seen.
I worked on the AK's Radio system, I sat in the darn thing..took a ride.
Every AK-1 and AK(upgrades flowing downstream) will have my signature on it whenever its crew talks to anyone outside of the tank. I did not care to ask about the armour thickness, but only what it could stop. Everything else they would not tell the person they trust with their communication so its safe to say that its designed to stop a KE and APFDS round.
So even to me these figures are alien and unrelated.

If the Sky is not blue, then show me that it is not blue...
You gonna graduate soon, better be able to make your case then.

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## DARKY

Oscar said:


> HOW do you know?
> You are out to disprove a theory(lets call it that for your sake).. and have not presented anything to disprove it on an evidential basis other than guesstimates.
> What is the interior of the AK turrent like?
> Where are the three plan views?
> Where are the multiple photographs from different angles?
> 
> If the Sky is not blue, then show me that it is not blue...



Keeping the size of Al Khalid turret in mind If the frontal armor is as thick... there won't be room for.
1. the auto loader,
2. electronics and other devices,
3. crew.

Why don't you prove the theory of yours and show that the armor of Al Khalid is 700mm thick... most of the sources put it at 600-650mm RHA for KE means about 400-450mm of composite block filling.


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Keeping the size of Al Khalid turret in mind If the frontal armor is as thick... there won't be room for.
> 1. the auto loader,
> 2. *electronics and other devices*,
> 3. crew.
> 
> *Why don't you prove the theory of yours* and show that the armor of Al Khalid is 700mm thick... most of the sources put it at 600-650mm RHA for KE means about 400-450mm of composite block filling.



these I worked on, so I can tell you their size.
The Radio is about 10x15x7.. The autoloader/cooling/aircon/etc electronics are all solid state which comes in various shielding not exceeding 6x6x6. The mechanicals are a tight fit(you cannot move around much). 
Im looking for a video that shows the interior so that you can judge.
I dont have a theory, I only see a tank.. make the radio.
If you have expertise(say of five to ten years) in the field where you can say with authority(preferably a diploma or degree) in armoured vehicle engineering that it is impossible to do so.
I would believe you.. till then.. Ill believe the other claim.
Im just a judge here who has actually seen the thing and spoken to the people who make it..rather than be a couch potato critique

Here's a nice collection of Images to show you with various ERA fittings.

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## Dazzler

Last Hope said:


> Posted by Nabil.
> 
> 
> I don't think this is safe to be posted on a public forum. Even though this is nothing sensitive, the TTP and their supporters have access to internet and Al-Khalid is operational in the area.
> 
> I hope you understand.


 
This has been reported on many forums including pakdef and i am not the first one to have reported it.

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## Last Hope

nabil_05 said:


> This has been reported on many forums including pakdef and i am not the first one to have reported it.


Take an example. A piece of information is available at one website, and same information is available at 50 different websites (of those, one rank's Asia/Middle East's biggest and Pakistan's top 50 most visited and recognized/promoted by PA). It would be easier.

Today the TTP think MBTs are damageable and after seeing them, they flee. After learning this, they would fire 5-6 RPGs at the tank and total it out.

When I was 'at peak' on this forum, everyone turned to me to get to know inside information, eg when is JF-17 Block II coming etc; and I used to answer away. I had received a warning, a friendly warning from a Air Commodore to control what I post, saying even though it is not sensitive it maybe used to enter the sensitive part of the projects. His statement was quite true.

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> I had got a warning, a friendly warning from a Air Commodore to control what I post, saying even though it is not sensitive it maybe used to enter the sensitive part of the projects. His statement was quite true.



haha, I remember talking to a MI guy, and he mentioned this forum and some members. Only said that they are pretty knowledgable.

I said, O bhai, retired logon ko bhi dekhtay ho kay nhn? He said, nope, only serving and their relatives!

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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Stop this baby cry and be Thankful as I corrected you many times here and provided correct info. for the users.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make correction there... None of the T-80UD have K-5 ERA.



Learn to talk in a civilized manner first, post reported!

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## Arsalan

DARKY said:


> There isn't any link either.. my assumption was based on comparative mass value in between M1A1 and T-90S turrets... M1A1 turret weights 22-25ton(depending on variant)... while T-90S turret weights about 15ton exactly.. hence a 17 ton figure must be close enough as Al Khalid doesn't have much armor space is needed to fill in electronics.
> 
> If you have any link which provides the mass of the turret on Al Khalid then please provide one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al Khalid is good no doubt... I say that here and again.
> 
> What I said about Soviet MBTs is what I can prove(In terms of protection)... Its not like making up the mind.. but what you know.
> You might take it like its being used by PA as MBTs.. however I can prove that for Arjun too.. in spite of all that thick armor right on the front it is not as protected as Russian MBTs... and that's a solid fact.. no denying.
> 
> Russian/Soviet/Ukrainian MBTs are known for their excellent design... after Russian design only Isreali design on Merkava comes 2nd.



Darky, you are assuming things on an Information Pool.
If you have made up your mind that why you have assumed is the ultimate reality of the world, then leave it here. If you want to discuss the facts and are looking to get yourself correct and learn something new, PLEASE LET US TAKE DISCUSSION TO RELAVANT THREAD.

MOD's must act to remove unnecessary information/debate. This is *Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool*

Its quote strange to see someone calling something his "Assumption" and then being so rigid on it and claiming that he have corrected all the members, thanks to his super mind assumptions. Cut it out!
You are assuming just because you know nothing about this subject, i have been asking you to discuss but you are firm that what you have *ASSUMED* is the final truth

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## SQ8

INFORMATION POOL IS NOT FOR DEBATES.
Please post any suggestion to change it in the main threads.

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## Manticore

jft had a discussions thread, however the other info pools ive made actually dont have a concurrent sticky like in the case of the ak, frigates & submarine info pools , only some old threads with little data if any --- So i can make these 3 threads into ''info pool & discussions'' as apart from the last 4 pages of this thread, all the pages are quite informative eventhough the information revealed was via discussions

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## Dazzler

interesting info on type 90IIM, AK, and all Chinese MBTS to date!



Îñíîâíîé áîåâîé òàíê «Òèï 90»


In June 1991, China and Pakistan for the first time publicly demonstrated a third-generation tank, designated the "Type 90-II», developed the program MBT-2000 (Main Battle Tank 2000). While China's leaders regard as a real Soviet attack on his country, but the contrast could only obsolete tanks "Type 59" and "Type 69" . It put the work on a new tank of the third generation, which could lead to an equal battle with Soviet T-72 and T-64. The development of the tank began in the mid-1980s, after the Chinese bought from one of the few countries in the Middle East, the T-72M Soviet production. Originally intended to be established on the basis of the tank shell and chassis T-72M with a new welded turret, a 120-mm gun, Western-style (it was conducted on the experimental testing of the tank "type 59Gai" ), an advanced digital fire control system and a German or American power block. But time has made &#8203;&#8203;some changes: in 1989, to suspend work due to an embargo on arms sales imposed by the U.S. and other Western countries. 

After the end of the Gulf War in 1991, the work on the tank MBT-2000 have been renewed, but as a model for the export of Pakistan's military. More October 1, 1988 Chinese National Corporation NORINCO contract with Pakistan to build prototypes of the tank "Type 90-II», which were to be thoroughly tested. With up to 70% of all components of the "90-II» were made &#8203;&#8203;in Pakistan. In the future, buying a license to produce and master the technology, the Pakistani military factory of «Heavy Industries Taxila» began mass production of improved versions of the tank, which received its own name "Al Khalid." Utilized in the production of 125-mm smoothbore gun and automatic loader for her Chinese started producing (naturally without a license) and for their own tanks.


Prototype tank "Type 90-II» the motor CV-12-1200 TCA "Condor"
Experts of the company NORINCO based machine design put constructive layout solutions implemented in the tanks of the third generation, created by leading foreign countries. As a basis, as planned at the beginning, use the chassis and hull of the T-72M, which is installed with advanced welded turret aft niche similar turret series ' 85-IIM / 88C/96 " . That's only weapons were chosen again Russia: the tank is fitted with a 125-mm smoothbore gun with automatic loader 2A46M. The press reported the following: tank "Type 90-II» is designed for 10% borrowed from the tank "59", 15% of the "69", 20% for «85/88C», the other 55% - a new technical solutions . As is the case with the tank "Type 85", the main efforts were directed at creating export model that resulted in the creation of the main battle tank "Al Khalid" (official name existed in parallel R-90) for the Pakistani army, which began to be carried out by the Pakistani " Heavy Industries Taxila »(HIT). Further work in China over the tank, "90-II» focused on the improvement of the overall design of the machine, which are used as a platform already built models. In 1995, China, Russia demonstrated the latest versions of the T-80U to supply the armed forces of the PLA, which has led a program to create the third generation of Chinese tanks "Type 98" , using newly developed technology. 


Layout tank "Type 90-II» front location provides office management (the driver sits in the center), average - the crew compartment (gunner on the left of the gun, the commander - right) of the engine at the rear. The body is a welded construction of rolled homogeneous armor, frontal part of which is made &#8203;&#8203;of combination (like a tank, "88c"). On the lower front part casing mounted device entrenching copied from the T-72M. The place is equipped with a driver mechanic sunroof and periscope observation devices. Periscope head has a pretty wide window that allows for a limited review of the right and left, and has a built-in night vision active-passive type. Besides the driver and controls movement in the hull is intended tank rack with a piece of ammunition for the gun and fire suppression system cylinders.


The second prototype of the tank "Type 90-II» with the German engine MTU396. Note the cowl on the roof bvshni
In a circular welded turret rotation is weapons fire control system and the commander and gunner. The very first prototype was installed tower, similar to the tank "type 88S/96" to follow - modified, with increased resistance protivosnaryadnoy, layout changes and increased forage equipment niche. Reported that the frontal part of hull and turret may establish additional armored plates composite armor, and its equivalent thickness of about 600 mm at the tower and 450 ... 470 mm in the case. Modular design allows quick Turret replace damaged items or set up in their place, reinforced blocks. If necessary, protection of the tank can be increased by installing its own production of reactive armor type FY ( see "Type 90-II» to DZ ). 
main armament is a 125 mm smoothbore gun with a thermal 2A46M and ejector (barrel length 48 calibers). The total weight of the body without a stabilizer and gun mantle result is 2443 kg, sliding parts - 1970 kg. Autoloader carousel similar to Russian AZ installed on tanks T-72 series. Ammunition is 39 shots separate-case loading, 22 of which are located in the mechanical combat pack under the tower, and the other 17 - in the machine. Obviously, in a tank, "90-II» uses the same 125-mm ammunition company NORINCO, as on "88S/96" - armor-piercing (the initial velocity of 1760 m / s), cumulative (850 m / s) and high- High Explosive (950 m / s), but in addition to be a new armor-piercing feathered projectile of depleted uranium (APFSDS), since we know that China is actively cooperating with Israel in the field and already produces similar 105-mm shells for tanks "Type 88B / A» and «type 59D». 
Tank "90-II» is equipped with modern advanced fire control system, presumably similar installed on the tank "Leclerc". The main elements of the OMS are: digital ballistic computer, control panel, periscope gunner with a thermal camera, built-in laser rangefinder and with independently stabilized in two planes, the line of sight, combined periscope sight-surveillance device command (pan-head type) display commander, two-plane stabilizer arms and a set of different sensors similar tank "type 88S/96." Arms control is carried out as the gunner and the commander. Drive guidance - electro and hand. Due to the fact that the head of panoramic sight can be rotated by 180 °, the commander's cupola, as such, is absent, and the perimeter of the hatch command has 6 periscope observation devices to improve visibility. Some sources indicate that the tanks "Type 90-II» / MBT-2000 have a special system for automatic tracking (automatic target tracking system), but what is the system - is not known. 
Auxiliary tank armament includes coaxial gun 7.62 -mm machine gun (3000 rounds ammunition) and 12.7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun «W-85" on the turret (500 rounds), which is installed between the commander's hatch and the gun. The firing of anti-aircraft machine gun can only be conducted in the front sector. To protect the crew from weapons of mass destruction is a collective anti-nuclear defense system (ESD) with filter-ventilation unit and to prevent fire - modern fast-fighting equipment. Judging from the photos, the turret of a tank "Type 90-II» mounted exhaust fan, which reduces fumes in the crew compartment, which was not on the tanks "Type 85-IIM" . Fan cover on the left front of the hatch command.


After part of the tank "Type 90-II» and open MTO engine MTU396. Later, the Chinese engine installed on the tank "Type 98"
For the full-scale tests have been built prototypes of tanks with two different engines. In the first version of the combined power unit includes an 8-cylinder diesel engine rated at 1200 hp, based at the German diesel engine technology MTU396, produced in China under license, and automatic transmission Renk LSG3000. Liquid-cooled engine has a turbocharger and an advanced cooling system, consisting of two ring radiator with centrifugal fans (so characteristic roof made &#8203;&#8203;two round windows, like a tank "Leopard 2"). Air intakes are located on the roof of the MTO under the aft turret niche. Because of the relatively high altitude of the power unit aft hull well above the turret. In the second version of the tank has been set to English V-shaped 12-cylinder diesel engine «Perkins Engine Company» CV-12-1200 TCA "Condor" liquid-cooled, turbocharged 1,200 hp (The same is in the tank "Challenger") and the French hydromechanical automatic transmission SESM ESM-500 (MBT stands for "Leclerc"), which provides for the movement of one of the four forward gears and two - back. On the roof of this modification MTO below and on the sides of the stern of the hull made &#8203;&#8203;longitudinal shutters. Replacing the power block either of these configurations in the field should not exceed 30 minutes. There was another project, "90-II», involves the installation of the engine MTU 871 or «General Dynamics Land Systems» AVDS-1790 (the one with the 120-mm gun), but it has remained on paper. Later, when preparing the sample, intended for delivery to Pakistan, developed a draft "Type 90-IIA», which was supposed to have a 1500-strong French series engine «Unidiesel V», but it has not been carried out because of the pressure on France administrations U.S. and India, demanded to join the embargo on arms sales to Pakistan. The latter decided to challenge myself by purchasing power blocks in Ukraine - so there was a tank "Type 90-IIM» or "Al Khalid" . 
Chassis "Type 90-II» with torsion bar suspension modeled on the T-72M and has six basic and three support rubber-coated rollers on both sides of the case. Rollers of the T-72 was preferred because of its reliability, low cost and ease of manufacture. At the first, second and sixth hardpoints are Hydromount. The drive wheel position at the rear. Tracks similar to tank "88S/96" equipped RMSH, rubberized running track and rubber boots. Chassis with boards protected by standard rubber-fabric folding screens or corrugated metal new design.



© 2003, www.otvaga.narod.ru, text, data	
KEY FEATURES: 
Combat weight, kg	46000
Crew.	3
Principal dimensions, mm: 
- The length of the body (with gun forward)	6900 (10350)
- Width	3372
- Height	2300
- Clearance	470
- Base x track	4250 x N
Average ground pressure, kg/cm2	0.9
Weapons (ammunition, rounds): 
- 125-mm smoothbore 2A46M 
- 7.62-mm machine gun "86" 
- 12.7-mm anti-aircraft gun W-85	1 (39) 
1 (2000) 
1 (500)
Angles vertical guidance degrees.	-6 ... +14
Stabilizer arms	biplanar
Loading mechanism	has (AZ)
Means of production dymzavesy	2x6 launchers, TDA
Type and make of the engine	Diesel: 
CV-12-1200 TCA "Condor" 12-cylinder 
or MTU396 
8-cylinder
Maximum power, hp	1200
Specific power, hp / t	26.09
Fuel tank capacity, l	no data
Transmission	hydromechanical Renk LSG3000 or SESM ESM-500
Maximum speed, km / h:	70
Cruising range, km	400 ... 550
Overcoming obstacles: 
- Rise, degree.	30
- Roll, hail.	15
- Ditch, m	2.7
- A wall, m	0.85
- Ford, m	1.4 (with OPVT - 5,5)
Armor, mm: 
- Forehead Kopusov	combined.
- The side hulls	30 ... 80 + screens
- Forehead tower	combined.
- The side of the tower	150 ... 170
- The roof	30


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## Dazzler

Îñíîâíîé áîåâîé òàíê «Àëü Õàëèä»


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## farhan_9909

info regarding the sagem third generation thermal imager on al khalid 1 is needed

if some body has plz post


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## Manticore

Thread cleaned -- go to this thread for comparative discussions -- i've moved some posts there
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/22400-pa-tanks-comparison-contempory-tanks-22.html


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## farhan_9909

info regarding the al khalid armour composition required?

Fused alumina like in the Chinese tanks or true composite armour like the British chobham?

And can someone provide info about the sagem third generation thermal imagers on AK1


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## Doctor09

Today i read a news about upgraded version of Al khalid tank in some newspaper (i did not able to read the name of newspaper as i was in hurry) , they name it as AL Khalidoon . Anyone who can confirm this news about this and what are the up gradations ?


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## Doctor09

&#1575;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1570;&#1576;&#1575;&#1583; (&#1580;&#1575;&#1608;&#1740;&#1583; &#1589;&#1583;&#1740;&#1602 &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1606;&#1746; &#1580;&#1583;&#1740;&#1583; &#1578;&#1585;&#1740;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583;
I &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1578;&#1740;&#1575;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1580;&#1608; &#1585;&#1575;&#1578; &#1705;&#1746; &#1608;&#1602;&#1578; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1578;&#1576;&#1575;&#1729; &#1705;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575;&#1585;&#1585;&#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1575;&#1722; &#1705;&#1585;&#1587;&#1705;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748; &#1606;&#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1608;&#1602;&#1578; &#1705;&#1608; &#1602;&#1575;&#1576;&#1604; &#1575;&#1593;&#1578;&#1605;&#1575;&#1583; &#1584;&#1585;&#1575;&#1574;&#1593; &#1606;&#1746; &#1576;&#1578;&#1575;&#1740;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1670;&#1740;&#1606; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1575;&#1588;&#1578;&#1585;&#1575;&#1705; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1740;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1608;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1672;&#1740;&#1586;&#1575;&#1574;&#1606; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1575;&#1587; &#1662;&#1585; &#1606;&#1589;&#1576; &#1580;&#1606;&#1711;&#1740; &#1570;&#1604;&#1575;&#1578; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1578;&#1585;&#1605;&#1740;&#1605; &#1705;&#1585;&#1705;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; I &#1705;&#1746; &#1606;&#1575;&#1605; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1740;&#1575; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575;&#1740;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748; &#1740;&#1729; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1585;&#1740;&#1711;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1575;&#1729;&#1605;&#1608;&#1575;&#1585; &#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1583;&#1588;&#1605;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1582;&#1604;&#1575;&#1601; &#1570;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1587;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575;&#1585;&#1585;&#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1575;&#1722; &#1705;&#1585; &#1587;&#1705;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1585;&#1575;&#1578; &#1705;&#1746; &#1608;&#1602;&#1578; &#1575;&#1606;&#1583;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1583;&#1588;&#1605;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1585;&#1746; &#1575;&#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1608; &#1608;&#1575;&#1590;&#1581; &#1591;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1585; &#1583;&#1740;&#1705;&#1726; &#1705;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1606;&#1729; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1587;&#1705;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748; &#1584;&#1585;&#1575;&#1574;&#1593; &#1705;&#1746; &#1605;&#1591;&#1575;&#1576;&#1602; &#1740;&#1729; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1605;&#1587;&#1578;&#1602;&#1576;&#1604; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1740;&#1606; &#1576;&#1740;&#1657;&#1604; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1575; &#1580;&#1587; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575; &#1594;&#1740;&#1585;&#1605;&#1604;&#1705;&#1740; &#1657;&#1740;&#1606;&#1705;&#1608;&#1722; &#1662;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606;&#1581;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585; &#1576;&#1681;&#1740; &#1581;&#1583; &#1578;&#1705; &#1582;&#1578;&#1605; &#1729;&#1608; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1575;&#1748; 
Today's Urdu ePaper Pakistan | NAWAIWAQT


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## farhan_9909

Al khalid armour was possible developed in this establishment.

given the infra required to develop a modern day armour for our battle tanks



> *Advance Armour Research & Development Complex (AARDIC) for HIT
> *
> Trojans has developed an Advance Armour Research And Development Complex (AARDIC) in Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). AARDIC is equipped with the state of the art technology related to Rapid Prototyping, Quality Control, Revenue Engineering, 3D Modeling, Thermal Imaging, Telecommunication & Metal Casting.
> 
> 
> 
> AARDIC will be used for the research and development purpose to enhance HIT prowess to produce more better Tanks and Armour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trojans, The cutting edge in technology
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## farhan_9909



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## Dazzler

Credit goes to Usman Shabbir from Pakdef forum,,,, this is when he visited HIT in 2004 so not latest but interesting....


"When visiting POF Wah one should have at least a week&#8217;s time so as to have enough time to visit all the 11 factories located their. Due to some personal engagements we only had few hours and we chose the two above mentioned factories. The visit to Tank/Anti-Tank Ammunitions Factory was really and truly impressive &#8211; seeing the production of 125mm APFSDS rounds from start to finish and the explanation of the whole process by the guide (a chemical engineer) were really informative. 

Right now the factory is producing a 125mm Tungsten alloy core APFSDS round with a penetration of 460mm and within a year another 125mm round with the penetration capabilities of 550mm will enter service. *POF also recently tested a DU 125 mm round produced by PAEC and certified it for an unbelievable 620mm &#8211; though I am not sure if this round has already entered service or not. But nonetheless Indians better add a few more tons to their Arjun. The huge steel blocks that were used during penetration/weapon trials were also on display with some neat holes in them &#8211; and on seeing those I of course kicked myself for forgetting to bring the camera. *

We were also told be officials at POF Wah that Bangladesh has ordered 10000 100mm shells and 3500 105mm shells and Saudi Arabia has also ordered a large quantity of 81mm mortars and ammunition. There were also some additional news bits but I guess I have a short memory.

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## Dazzler

Digital drive panels are being fitted on entire AK series, tenders placed a while ago. We will soon see complete digital interior in AK.


www.ppra.org.pk/doc/25-7/hit257-278.doc

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## farhan_9909

Extract from the link provided by Nabil



> Description of Store to be Developed / Supplied. Heavy Industries Taxila intends to develop a Digital Driver Panel Unit for fitment on Tank Al-Khalid which should conform to the capabilities and technical specifications of existing Ukrainian / Chinese systems already installed on Tank Al-Khalid. The indigenously developed digital driver panel should be fully replaceable with the existing instrument panel installed on Tank Al-Khalid.
> 
> 4. Scope of Work / Features
> 
> a. All instruments to be digital with virtual display on a* touch screen* of military grade conforming to mil standards.
> 
> b. The sensors On Board of the vehicle are not altered and original sensors are retained where possible. Additional sensors can be fitted.
> 
> c. Most of the hard (operating) switches are replaced with *virtual switches on the touch screen.*
> 
> d. Essential switches are physically available on the casing of the display to ensure redundancy in emergency.
> 
> e. Interactive startup procedure of the tank and more clear warning display while the tank operates.
> 
> f. Maintenance log and warnings to the driver well before a maintenance activity is due or overdue.
> 
> g. Data reading for at least last 30 minute operation updated every minute.
> 
> h. Parameter logging to identify / investigate the reasons for any problems or failure which might occur during the operations has to be provided.
> 
> 5. Future Growth. The system must be upgradeable and should have provision for following:-
> 
> a. *Navigational system like BMS, LNS or GPS, as per the requirement of the users.*
> 
> b. Vehicle management system extending on full information on the logistic, technical and tactical status of the vehicle through a telemetric system or connected through a BMS to the command echelons.
> 
> c. Additional display, like fire extinguisher, APU and warning also to be merged on the main display.

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## alimobin memon

The t-80UD already has 630mm of armour penetration and type 85 III of pak army has 460mm of APSFDS vs RHA amour. How alkhalid is superior to them when t80UD already has good protection. what are the points that make alkhalid the backbone since t80UD has almost same penetration power at 2km ?


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> The t-80UD already has 630mm of armour penetration and type 85 III of pak army has 460mm of APSFDS vs RHA amour. How alkhalid is superior to them when t80UD already has good protection. what are the points that make alkhalid the backbone since t80UD has almost same penetration power at 2km ?



go through previous pages, your queries have been answered there.


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## farhan_9909

alimobin memon said:


> The t-80UD already has 630mm of armour penetration and type 85 III of pak army has 460mm of APSFDS vs RHA amour. How alkhalid is superior to them when t80UD already has good protection. what are the points that make alkhalid the backbone since t80UD has almost same penetration power at 2km ?




which round are you talking about with 630mm?against RHA?

do we have one or we got one from ukraine with T-80UD?


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## alimobin memon

farhan_9909 said:


> which round are you talking about with 630mm?against RHA?
> 
> do we have one or we got one from ukraine with T-80UD?



T-80UD Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com
This is one of the links ... Though I am not talking about Alkhalid 1 but Alkhalid tank. Can u please tell me its armour thickness , and does it have sandwiched RHA with Composite plate and ERA combination of armour or COMPOSITE and ERA ... Further it's armour penetrating capability the wiki is showing wrong "550mm" against RHA in DU round mentioned it WIKI seems legit it should be greater cause t80UD already uses DU round and has 550mm of penetration how come both tanks have same penetrating power in DU round since both have different gun system namely kBA3 for t80UD and further the range is same 2km for DU round 550mm penetration. Alkhalid is superior in Engine, EFFECTIVE range, Laser jammer and range finder. what is the armour combination of t80UD ? 
And is it true that alkhalid armour effectiveness without ERA has increase to 750mm ?
I hope u know what I am saying.


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Credit goes to Usman Shabbir from Pakdef forum,,,, this is when he visited HIT in 2004 so not latest but interesting....
> 
> 
> "When visiting POF Wah one should have at least a week&#8217;s time so as to have enough time to visit all the 11 factories located their. Due to some personal engagements we only had few hours and we chose the two above mentioned factories. The visit to Tank/Anti-Tank Ammunitions Factory was really and truly impressive &#8211; seeing the production of 125mm APFSDS rounds from start to finish and the explanation of the whole process by the guide (a chemical engineer) were really informative.
> 
> Right now the factory is producing a 125mm Tungsten alloy core APFSDS round with a penetration of 460mm and within a year another 125mm round with the penetration capabilities of 550mm will enter service. *POF also recently tested a DU 125 mm round produced by PAEC and certified it for an unbelievable 620mm &#8211; though I am not sure if this round has already entered service or not. But nonetheless Indians better add a few more tons to their Arjun. The huge steel blocks that were used during penetration/weapon trials were also on display with some neat holes in them &#8211; and on seeing those I of course kicked myself for forgetting to bring the camera. *
> 
> We were also told be officials at POF Wah that Bangladesh has ordered 10000 100mm shells and 3500 105mm shells and Saudi Arabia has also ordered a large quantity of 81mm mortars and ammunition. There were also some additional news bits but I guess I have a short memory.



Details on M289A1
*684 mm long *
20.9kg weight 
1575m/s velocity 
3000m range 
570mm RHA penetration at 2000m 
point balnk is 670mm 
and 620mm for 1000m 
460mm penetration possible at 4000m.

Considering the length of the rod here which is 684mm... the* carousel autoloader* on Al Khalid and other Chinese tanks limit the *length of round to 650mm* at best until the size of the turret is increased significantly... to accommodate a larger carousel auto-loader.... or a manual loader or a different auto-loader design is selected on later variants.... Arjun front armor is anywhere *near 1m-900mm in thickness* along with a *heavier 3rd gen. ERA design* selected.... I believe the person should rather concentrate on better tank designs and ammo rather than advocating silly and audacious suggestion about something which is beyond his knowledge.


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## Dazzler

ATGM and long rod rounds are loaded by hand, not present in the autoloader. Last part of your post applies to you. I talk what i know about it and have seen.

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## Dazzler

taken in 2005, composite armour covering is thick enough compared to T-80/ 90, ERA not included.

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> ATGM and long rod rounds are loaded by hand, not present in the autoloader. Last part of your post applies to you. I talk what i know about it and have seen.



Dude, does that end up wasting time or the configuration is such that the auto-loader can give way to a manual-loading setup seamlessly ?


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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Dude, does that end up wasting time or the configuration is such that the auto-loader can give way to a manual-loading setup seamlessly ?



Hand loading can be done 2-3 rounds per minute but it is not as quick as the autoloader offcourse but done only when needed. Besides, there is a small number of ATGMS, long rod penetrators present. Most rounds are non DU, conventional such as tungsten APFSDS, HEAT, HESH etc.

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## Dazzler

another closeup, note the ERA which is Chinese and not the local Aorak xx series which is thicker and has round edges..

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Hand loading can be done 2-3 rounds but it is not as quick as the autoloader offcourse but done only when needed. Besides, there is a small number of ATGMS, long rod penetrators present. Most rounds are non DU, conventional such as tungsten APFSDS, HEAT, HESH etc.



So tell me yaaraa on what basis is it decided what rounds are going to be carried ? Does the Tank Commander order his troops to change the round in the midst of battle or does a group enter into the fray of battle each carrying a combination of rounds loaded in individual tanks so that the commander under question has different options to call upon ? How..does it work operationaly ?


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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> *ATGM and long rod rounds are loaded by hand*, not present in the autoloader. Last part of your post applies to you. I talk what i know about it and have seen.



I don't know about Al Khalid but for T-72, T-90, T-80 and other tanks having two piece ammo style auto loader.



> The 9K119M Refleks-M (AT-11 SNIPER-B) is a guided weapons system launched from the 2A46M main gun of T-80 and T-90 MBTs. The 9K119M system uses beam-riding laser guidance. The tank directs a coded beam from a special gunner's sight, which creates a laser "funnel" with the missile riding in the center. The 9K119M uses the 9M119M missile. The ammunition round is 3UBK20 and consists of the 9M119M missile and the 9Kh949 reduced charge propellant casing with a spacer plug which seats the missile properly into the main gun.* The 3UBK20 ammunition fits into the normal autoloader on the tank, and the normal load is 6 missiles*. Due to high cost of the system, usually only elite regiments shall have the missiles in a loadout.



Refleks-M ATGM System

Seriously.... No other tank other than Al Khalid seems to load them manually.

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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> So tell me yaaraa on what basis is it decided what rounds are going to be carried ? Does the Tank Commander order his troops to change the round in the midst of battle or does a group enter into the fray of battle each carrying a combination of rounds loaded in individual tanks so that the commander under question has different options to call upon ? How..does it work operationaly ?



This is a strictly military decision which is taken after considering the enemy armour in that specific region. For e.g, confronting a T-72/ T-90 in Thar/ Rajhistan region is a given so AK/ T-80 regiments will be equipped with adequate rounds to handle the threat. Too much technicalities are involved in such scenarios.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> *Hand loading* can be done 2-3 rounds per minute but it is not as quick as the autoloader offcourse but done only when needed. Besides, there is a small number of ATGMS, long rod penetrators present. Most rounds are non DU, conventional such as tungsten APFSDS, HEAT, HESH etc.



To load from hand the gunner has to leave his position... which is disastrous and for the tank.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> I don't know about Al Khalid but for T-72, T-90, T-80 and other tanks having two piece ammo style auto loader.
> 
> 
> 
> Refleks-M ATGM System
> 
> Seriously.... No other tank other than Al Khalid seems to load them manually.



This is why we do not have them, rather we have Kombat ATGM to fit our needs.

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## farhan_9909

kombat Atgm is bigger
and was than again further modified with even larger warhead 
i doubt that would fit into the autoloader

i second nabil on this part

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> This is why we do not have them, rather we have Kombat ATGM to fit our needs.



Which again is a two piece ammo... used in T-80, T-64 auto loaders.


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## Dazzler

This is a system that no Indian tank has to date, the multiple reverse speed transmission, only AK, and Oplot have it. 

REVERSIBLE (MULTIPLE REVERSE SPEED) TRANSMISSION
Reversible transmission is intended to increase the tank speed at forward motion and reverse movement. The enhanced gears of reverse movement provide when necessary quick change of position in combat conditions without tank turning.

Reversible transmission consists of two gear boxes with coaxially attached reversible final drives.










more info here,

KMDB - Oplot Main Battle Tank

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## Dazzler

Kombat

KMDB - Firepower Enhancement

Read the last part, *rate of fire without throw over of the line firing*.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Kombat
> 
> KMDB - Firepower Enhancement
> 
> Read the last part, *rate of fire without throw over of the line firing*.



Again you didn't reply about the auto loader part... 

Here's how Kombat is loaded in both types of Russian loaders.






Hence If we take your words true... It leaves the designers of Al Khalid as Jokers who don't know how to fit the missile in auto-loader.


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## Dazzler

yep, even the designer of the missile mistakenly mentioned that part. you already answered your question by presenting the pic of T-72 autoloader.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> yep, even the designer of the missile mistakenly mentioned that part. you already answered your question by presenting the pic of T-72 autoloader.



So back to square one... on longer than 650mm AFSPDS round handling capability of the T-72 style autoloader.

about Kombat
http://www.oborona.co.uk/kombat.pdf

comparison with other missiles of Russian origins.
Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page

Latest among them in Invar-M.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> So back to square one... on longer than 650mm AFSPDS round handling capability of the T-72 style autoloader.



loaded by HAND!

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> loaded by HAND!



Makes the whole concept of *auto-loader useless*... Its better to strip off the auto-loader in that case.
While performing manual loading the gunner has to leave *his position and perform additional duties*... leaving the *tank vulnerable*... would affect the rate of fire... even more so while on move and a whole lot of issues regarding the space to keep that ammo and gun firing capabilities.. etc..etc..


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Makes the whole concept of *auto-loader useless*... Its better to strip off the auto-loader in that case.
> While performing manual loading the gunner has to leave *his position and perform additional duties*... leaving the *tank vulnerable*... would affect the rate of fire... even more so while on move and a whole lot of issues regarding the space to keep that ammo and gun firing capabilities.. etc..etc..



2-3 rounds a minute is not bad, only done when necessary.

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## Umair Nawaz

@ darky 
oh meri jan tera masla kya ha kbi tu jf17 waly thread main trolling krta ha kbi Alk Khalid wale thread py. Tu kahe kisi pagl khany sy to nai bhag k aya

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## farhan_9909

SO it also means that inspite of Autoloader even without the bustle autoloader
we can load long rod penetrator bt at a slow rate of 2-3/min

i guess this was the reason tank designer syed ali Muhammad said AK1 also has the capability of firing long rod penetrator

damns this is awesome

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## alimobin memon

nOBODY ANSWERED MY QUESTION GOING BACK TO THREAD IS NOT HELPING ... WHAT IS THE ACTUALL THICKNESS OF ARMOUR OF ALKHALID AND ITS GUNS POWER OF PENETRATING ARMOUR...

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## Last Hope

alimobin memon said:


> nOBODY ANSWERED MY QUESTION GOING BACK TO THREAD IS NOT HELPING ... WHAT IS THE ACTUALL THICKNESS OF ARMOUR OF ALKHALID AND ITS GUNS POWER OF PENETRATING ARMOUR...



Thickness of armor? I don't know, ask Nabil. But it's good enough!
As for the power of it's guns, it's a 125mm and rest depends on the shell you fire.
Recent test has penetrated a 620mm steel blocks.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> 2-3 rounds a minute is not bad, only done when necessary.



We are talking of the main anti-tank ammo which is the AFSPDS... 2-3 have little or no significance... even If you consider M289A3 rounds which are almost 1m.

It better to have the auto-loader working for smaller two piece rounds which can provide rapid fire and not compromise with performance.

Or work on single piece ammo.... or a bigger turret for two piece types in an auto-loader.


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## farhan_9909

alimobin memon said:


> nOBODY ANSWERED MY QUESTION GOING BACK TO THREAD IS NOT HELPING ... WHAT IS THE ACTUALL THICKNESS OF ARMOUR OF ALKHALID AND ITS GUNS POWER OF PENETRATING ARMOUR...



such info is kept classified throughout the world

no exact figure is actually revealed

though this guy has collected some info directly from sites like tank.net and related sites

Tank Protection Levels

it will clear some of your doubts
bt you should remember that the exact figure is never ever released and is kept classified usually

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## farhan_9909

i guess HIT should get such one from turkey or develop locally
because rcws is more of standard in all the latest MBT across the world

Aselsan Sarp

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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> nOBODY ANSWERED MY QUESTION GOING BACK TO THREAD IS NOT HELPING ... WHAT IS THE ACTUALL THICKNESS OF ARMOUR OF ALKHALID AND ITS GUNS POWER OF PENETRATING ARMOUR...



Actual thickness is never published, all we can do is guess, my guess for baseline AK is between 650-780 mm on turret front without ERA. Gun is better than T-80ud version both in terms of quality (barrel life is 1200 rounds) and penetration. Again, these parameters are classified, we can just guess.


Good read on Russian guns..

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

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## Dazzler

Here is some info on the ZPT-98 gun used on the earlier model, improved local version with inputs from Ukraine is used on AK variants though.


type-98 is armed with a ZPT-98 125mm smoothbore gun with a length-diameter ratio of 50:1. the barrel is made of high-intensity PCrN13NoV, muzzle energy is 45% higher than the russian 2A46M-1 type 125mm gun, 30% higher than RH-120 type 120mm gun on leo2A5 and M1A1/A2. hydraulic self-strengthening technology has resulted in a much stiffer barrel, the length is 6,412mm, it has a lifetime of 700 armor-pieceing rounds. the thermal sleeve is of a double aluminium plate structure with air gap, it consist of 5 non-interchangeble parts, its effective rate is 70%. ZPT-98 can be replaced on battlefield within 1 hr.

ammunition rounds used by type-98 include tungsten-uranium alloy APFSDS round using semi-combustble casing, FS-HEAT-FRG round and FS-MP-HESH round. a total of 41 rounds were carried, 22 stored within the autoloader. when firing third generation tungsten alloy APFSDS(initial velocity 1,780m/sec), it could penetrate 850mm RHA at a distance of 2,000m. the latest special alloy armor-pieceing round can penetrate up to 960mm, the rod penetrator's length-diameter ratio is 30:1. the FS-MP-HESH is of a high-explosive type with extra explosive material packed inside. in addition, type-98 is armed with a laser-guided gun-launched missile system based on the russian 9K119(AT-11). the 9M119 warhead could penetrate 700mmRHA. type-98 is armed with 4 such missile under normal circumstance. the autoloader onboard the type-98 is based on a russian design, loading time for a single round is 8 seconds, test shows the autoloader has a interval breakdown rate of 3%. the ZPT-98 gun has maximum firing speed of 8 rounds per minute, the speed drops to 1-2 round per minute when its being manually operated.

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Here is some info on the ZPT-98 gun used on the earlier model, improved local version with inputs from Ukraine is used on AK variants though.
> 
> 
> type-98 is armed with a ZPT-98 125mm smoothbore gun with a length-diameter ratio of 50:1. the barrel is made of high-intensity PCrN13NoV, muzzle energy is 45% higher than the russian 2A46M-1 type 125mm gun, 30% higher than RH-120 type 120mm gun on leo2A5 and M1A1/A2. hydraulic self-strengthening technology has resulted in a much stiffer barrel, the length is 6,412mm, it has a lifetime of 700 armor-pieceing rounds. the thermal sleeve is of a double aluminium plate structure with air gap, it consist of 5 non-interchangeble parts, its effective rate is 70%. ZPT-98 can be replaced on battlefield within 1 hr.
> 
> ammunition rounds used by type-98 include tungsten-uranium alloy APFSDS round using semi-combustble casing, FS-HEAT-FRG round and FS-MP-HESH round. a total of 41 rounds were carried, 22 stored within the autoloader. when firing third generation tungsten alloy APFSDS(initial velocity 1,780m/sec), it could* penetrate 850mm RHA at a distance of 2,000m*. the latest special alloy armor-pieceing round can *penetrate up to 960mm*, the rod penetrator's length-diameter ratio is 30:1. the FS-MP-HESH is of a high-explosive type with extra explosive material packed inside. in addition, type-98 is armed with a laser-guided gun-launched missile system based on the russian 9K119(AT-11). the 9M119 warhead could penetrate 700mmRHA. type-98 is armed with 4 such missile under normal circumstance. the autoloader onboard the type-98 is based on a russian design, loading time for a single round is 8 seconds, test shows the autoloader has a interval breakdown rate of 3%. the ZPT-98 gun has maximum firing speed of 8 rounds per minute, the speed drops to 1-2 round per minute when its being manually operated.



clearly over hyped... *none of the two piece ammo can have such level of penetration* until we're on moon or mars.

Even single piece long rods like* DM-63 when fired from L55*(which is the most powerful tank gun in use) can only achieve upto *700-750mm RHA penetration at 2000m*.

Only round which is capable of achieving such levels of penetration is *M289A3 which is about 980mm long and is the thickest and heaviest around*.

The Chinese rounds don't even have such capability at point blank ranges... even the latest Russian DU the BM-48 Svinets can only achieve 600-650mm penetration at 2000mm from the latest Russian 125mm guns which have much higher level of chamber pressure than any existing Chinese gun.


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## Dazzler

you need to read alot and talk less. I can give you plenty if you are willing to read.

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## Umair Nawaz

nabil_05 said:


> you need to read alot and talk less. I can give you plenty if you are willing to read.



jnab tank master sahab ab so jain 4 baj gae hain suba kay!

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## Umair Nawaz

nabil_05 said:


> you need to read alot and talk less. I can give you plenty if you are willing to read.



jnab tank master sahab ab so jain 4 baj gae hain suba kay!

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> you need to read alot and talk less. I can give you plenty if you are willing to read.



That's the problem with you... you *read too much* and don't *use your brain*.... here you can use this simple formula.

*Penetration*(in mm) =* L*(1.044 x *V*(km/sec) - 0.194 x Ln(*L*/*D*) - 0.212) x (1+(*D*/6.5 x .05)) x (*Penetrator Material Modifier*) + 1.2 x d (2.4 x *D* for 60deg).

*L*--> actual length of penetrating rod.
*D*--> diameter of penetrating rod.
*V*-->muzzle velocity

[Note: You must put in the velocity of the round at 2000 meter of obtain the penetration figures at such distance.]


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> That's the problem with you... you *read too much* and don't *use your brain*.... here you can use this simple formula.
> 
> *Penetration*(in mm) =* L*(1.044 x *V*(km/sec) - 0.194 x Ln(*L*/*D*) - 0.212) x (1+(*D*/6.5 x .05)) x (*Penetrator Material Modifier*) + 1.2 x d (2.4 x *D* for 60deg).
> 
> *L*--> actual length of penetrating rod.
> *D*--> diameter of penetrating rod.
> *V*-->muzzle velocity
> 
> [Note: You must put in the velocity of the round at 2000 meter of obtain the penetration figures at such distance.]



Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 52

http://www.*********************/army/new-type98-99-mbt-thread-62-851.html


Tianrens' Blog: ZPT-98

"According to the article on the ZPT-98 125mm tank gun, the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 2A46M Type-1 125mm tank gun. Is has 25% greater accuracy than the Soviet gun Section 3: Weapon System), and is capable on on-the-move 100% accuracy at 2,000 meters (Section 4: Fire Control System). The Fire Control System has a viewing range of 7,000 to 9,000 metres, can detect targets at 4,000 metres, and identify targets at 3,100 metres (Section 5: Night Vision System). 

Still, DongFeng is correct, as confirmed by the article, when he says that the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 125mm. It still uses the Russian 9K119Refleks Tank gun launched ATGM with a range of 4,000 metres (4 missiles per PLA tank armed with ZPT-98), which is the maximum target detection range for the Night Vision System slaved to the Fire Control System developed for the ZPT-98. As is, with 25% greater accuracy over the Russian 125mm (1,600-1,800m), the ZPT-98 therefore has a maximum effective range with sabot of up to 2,250 metres. The PLA tests confirm 100% accuracy on the move at 2,000 metres. 

There remains a considerable gap between the 2,250 metres effective range of the ZPT-98 125mm gun and the (offically aknowledged) 3,200 metre effective range of the 120mmL44 used by many Western countries, never mind the improved 52 calbire versions recently entering service. In "The Generals' War" by Michael R. Gordon and Lt.Gen Bernard E. Trainor (USMC ret.), there are accounts of the 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized) M-1A1 tank crews destroying Iraqi Republican Guard T-72s and T-55s at ranges of 3 miles (4,800 metres) as the Iraqis made for the al-Hammar Causeway over the Euphrates River, west of Basra in the 1991 Gulf War. Clearly, given the 2,250 metre effective range of sabot rounds for the ZPT-98, the 4,000 metre range of the 9K119 Refeks ATGM is tactically necessary to narrow the gap. The performance of the NATO 105mm and 120mm tank guns has (so far) negated any need for them to resort to gun-launched ATGM.

As for the Chinese 120mm, it was built under license from Oerlikon. As you know, the PLA installed it on various prototypes, but it was never adopted for general service by the PLA, but offered for export."

Everyone, but you, cant be wrong

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 52
> 
> http://www.*********************/army/new-type98-99-mbt-thread-62-851.html
> 
> 
> Tianrens' Blog: ZPT-98
> 
> "According to the article on the ZPT-98 125mm tank gun, the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 2A46M Type-1 125mm tank gun. Is has 25% greater accuracy than the Soviet gun Section 3: Weapon System), and is capable on on-the-move 100% accuracy at 2,000 meters (Section 4: Fire Control System). The Fire Control System has a viewing range of 7,000 to 9,000 metres, can detect targets at 4,000 metres, and identify targets at 3,100 metres (Section 5: Night Vision System).
> 
> Still, DongFeng is correct, as confirmed by the article, when he says that the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 125mm. It still uses the Russian 9K119Refleks Tank gun launched ATGM with a range of 4,000 metres (4 missiles per PLA tank armed with ZPT-98), which is the maximum target detection range for the Night Vision System slaved to the Fire Control System developed for the ZPT-98. As is, with 25% greater accuracy over the Russian 125mm (1,600-1,800m), the ZPT-98 therefore has a maximum effective range with sabot of up to 2,250 metres. The PLA tests confirm 100% accuracy on the move at 2,000 metres.
> 
> There remains a considerable gap between the *2,250 metres effective range of the ZPT-98* 125mm gun and the (offically aknowledged) *3,200 metre effective range of the 120mmL44* used by many Western countries, never mind the improved *52 calbire versions* recently entering service. In "The Generals' War" by Michael R. Gordon and Lt.Gen Bernard E. Trainor (USMC ret.), there are accounts of the 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized) M-1A1 tank crews destroying Iraqi Republican Guard T-72s and T-55s at ranges of 3 miles (4,800 metres) as the Iraqis made for the al-Hammar Causeway over the Euphrates River, west of Basra in the 1991 Gulf War. Clearly, given the 2,250 metre effective range of sabot rounds for the ZPT-98, the 4,000 metre range of the 9K119 Refeks ATGM is tactically necessary to narrow the gap. *The performance of the NATO 105mm and 120mm tank guns has (so far) negated any need for them to resort to gun-launched ATGM.*
> 
> As for the *Chinese 120mm, it was built under license from Oerlikon.* As you know, the PLA installed it on various prototypes, but it was never adopted for general service by the PLA, but offered for export."
> 
> Everyone, but you, cant be wrong



Fail to understand what has this got to do with the fact that* your previous claim about Chinese AFSPS achieving upto 800mm and 960mm RHA penetration at 2000m*.... you give me the* link *from another forum *where the senior armor guys have been saying the same as BS*... even the *Chinese members supporting them*.

I know about the 140mm Chinese gun, 120mm Chinese gun, 125mm Chinese gun aswell as 155mm Chinese gun.. what are you trying to show me here ?

ever since I have come to this thread you've been running around circles.
1st with *Nozh ERA* and then* with Al Khalid armor level* and then with *Kombat CLATGM* and now with *Chinese AFSPDS*... 

*Take your time reading the comments* by the members on the thread you gave as source... I am surprised as *you* advocate others to *read* and don't* read* yourself... Damian90 is a good member at tanknet and ***.

Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 52

I cannot be right everywhere but here you are wrong... like you were with *Nozh ERA on Al Khalid/T-80UD, 750mm Armor on Al Khalid, auto-loader not being able to load Kombat CLATGM*.

Plus the new *NATO gun is the L55 which is 55 cal. length and not 52*... besides *NATO 105mm aswell as 120mm does fire LAHAT CLATGM* and the your whole quoted part talks about *superiority of NATO guns* and their single piece ammo... and how ZTZ-98 is inferior to them.... which somehow in some blizzard circumstances are able to perform better than those NATO gun... according to you.


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Fail to understand what has this got to do with the fact that* your previous claim about Chinese AFSPS achieving upto 800mm and 960mm RHA penetration at 2000m*.... you give me the* link *from another forum *where the senior armor guys have been saying the same as BS*... even the *Chinese members supporting them*.
> 
> I know about the 140mm Chinese gun, 120mm Chinese gun, 125mm Chinese gun aswell as 155mm Chinese gun.. what are you trying to show me here ?
> 
> ever since I have come to this thread you've been running around circles.
> 1st with *Nozh ERA* and then* with Al Khalid armor level* and then with *Kombat CLATGM* and now with *Chinese AFSPDS*...
> 
> *Take your time reading the comments* by the members on the thread you gave as source... I am surprised as *you* advocate others to *read* and don't* read* yourself... Damian90 is a good member at tanknet and ***.
> 
> Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 52
> 
> I cannot be right everywhere but here you are wrong... like you were with *Nozh ERA on Al Khalid/T-80UD, 750mm Armor on Al Khalid, auto-loader not being able to load Kombat CLATGM*.
> 
> Plus the new *NATO gun is the L55 which is 55 cal. length and not 52*... besides *NATO 105mm aswell as 120mm does fire LAHAT CLATGM* and the your whole quoted part talks about *superiority of NATO guns* and their single piece ammo... and how ZTZ-98 is inferior to them.... which somehow in some blizzard circumstances are able to perform better than those NATO gun... according to you.



You seem to be one of a kind simply because you argue on every piece of information provided in a thread which has a name, "information pool". This information is not made up by me or anyone.

Sigh!!


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## farhan_9909

seems like the new round displayed in the soft launch of ideas expo is slightly longer than the older naiza round
soft launch ideas def expo march 2012






Ideas def expo 2002(picture)


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## mylovepakistan

Asian Defense: IDEAS 2012: Pakistan, China to market Al-Khalid tank together

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## fatman17

*Pakistan unveils upgraded Al-Khalid tank, APC*:


Gordon Arthur, Karachi, Pakistan Section:

2012-Nov-14


An improved Al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT) and an upgraded armoured personnel carrier (APC) were among the armoured vehicles displayed by Pakistan's state-owned Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) at the seventh International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi. 

The Al-Khalid, a product of Chinese and Pakistani co-operation, is currently being marketed overseas by China as the MBT-2000 without Pakistani permission, an HIT spokesman stated . On 8 November HIT moved to close this loophole by signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on Al-Khalid exports with Chinese firm Norinco. 

An Al-Khalid main battle tank, the premium product of Heavy Industries Taxila, on display at IDEAS 2012. (Gordon Arthur) The MoU arranges for joint marketing and profit sharing between the two partners, as well as ongoing technology transfer. Potential export markets for the Al-Khalid include Bangladesh, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and the Middle East, said the spokesman, who nonetheless acknowledged that it is competing in a very challenging market. 

More than 300 of the 46-tonne MBTs have entered Pakistan Army service since 2001 - the first 215 of which were fitted with a Ukrainian engine. Meanwhile, a senior official at Ministry of Defence Procurement said an improved version is nearing induction that will feature a more powerful diesel power pack, improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities. HIT manufactures around 20 Al-Khalid tanks a year and also produces the Al-Zarrar MBT. A spokesman said HIT has no intention of marketing the latter internationally, adding that its lesser capabilities render it uncompetitive. 

HIT also exhibited an improved Talha APC that Qasim Ijaz Cheema, an HIT marketing manager, said had been developed in response to an army request. 

HIT has developed the Talha M113P with a cupola and angled add-on armour suite that offers higher protection levels. (Gordon Arthur) The 11.2-tonne Talha is based on the US Combat Systems M113A2/M113A3 series and is often referred to as the M113P. It features a modular armour package consisting of Kevlar sandwiched between steel on the outside and aluminium on the inside and a 1,375 kg bolt-on armour package that can resist 12.7 mm rounds. The M113P, which is armed with a rotating cupola mounting a heavy machine gun and powered by a 275 hp engine, has been sold to Iraq and is also available in a longer version. 

Cheema said the Talha and Al-Khalid upgrades reflected HIT's current focus on improving and up-armouring existing products suitable for the type of internal defence duties the armed forces are currently engaged in, rather than developing new vehicle designs. 

HIT also displayed three Muhafiz 4x4 armoured vehicle variants in service with Pakistani police, ranger and army units, including the latest 3,200 kg Muhafiz III security vehicle fitted with a remote-controlled weapon system. The latest version is based on a Toyota Land Cruiser chassis and is capable of 120 km/h on roads. The indigenously designed Muhafiz has already won sales to Bangladesh, Iraq and Sri Lanka. 

JDW

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## hari sud

Here is opinion published by "Strategy Page" about Al Khalid tank

*The Pride Of Pakistan Gets No Respect*

November 30, 2012: China has agreed to help Pakistan find export customers for its Al Khalid tank. Pakistan developed this tank with Chinese help and began equipping Pakistani Army units with it back in 2001. But export sales have been scarce. Only Sri Lanka agreed to buy, and only 22 tanks and that deal has yet to be finalized. Meanwhile China has sold several hundred of its version of the Al Khalid (the MBT-2000) to Morocco and Bangladesh. 
It wasnt supposed to work out this way. Pakistan, after all, has more recent experience in mechanized warfare. In fact, China has not fought a major campaign in over fifty years, and only two minor ones (mountain warfare with India in the 1960s, and some border battles in the jungles with Vietnam in 1979). China has done some air and naval skirmishing with the Taiwanese, but nothing as intense as what the Pakistanis have gone through as recently as 1999 (another mountain battle, with India). China has more money and industrial infrastructure than Pakistan, and this has helped Pakistan build up its military-industrial capabilities. 

Back in the 1980s, when the two countries began this co-production deal, apparently they believed that Pakistan's stature in the Moslem world would provide a marketing advantage. Alas, the end of the Cold War, plus the spectacular performance of U.S. weapons in the 1991 Gulf War, made "cheap and simple" a much harder sell, especially if it was based on Russian designs. The end result is that China is getting some more arms exports because it is better at making sales. Pakistan has not been a total loser as they have been able to build up its arms production capability.

Meanwhile China is now offering a new tank, the MBT 3000, for export. The Chinese Army will begin receiving the MBT 3000 in two years. The 3000 appears to be a MBT 2000 with a slightly more powerful engine, more armor, improved suspension and running gear, and better electronics. While none of the individual changes is radical or greatly improved over MBT 2000, the total number of improvements is substantial. 

The Chinese MBT 2000 (also known as the VT1A) tank is an export model of the Chinese Type 98/99. The MBT 2000 also looks similar to the Type 90/Al Khalid. The Type 98/99/90/MBT-2000 vehicles are all "improved T-72s." There were lots of improvements, though many of them similar to what's found in the Russian T-80UM2. The workmanship on these vehicles is a little better than on the T-80UM2 but the Chinese don't have as much experience building tanks. This has shown itself in the numerous technical glitches that have shown up. 

The basic T-72 design has been around for over 30 years and has proved reliable, although not particularly effective on the battlefield. That was mostly due to poor crews. The Chinese have moved to volunteer crews and more intensive training, which make any tank more effective. The MBT 2000 is a 49 ton tank with a 125mm gun and a three man crew (plus an autoloader). The MBT 3000 weight only goes up to 51 tons but overall performance and reliability is greatly improved.


Armor: The Pride Of Pakistan Gets No Respect


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## farhan_9909

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan unveils upgraded Al-Khalid tank, APC*:
> 
> 
> Gordon Arthur, Karachi, Pakistan Section:
> 
> 2012-Nov-14
> 
> 
> An improved Al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT) and an upgraded armoured personnel carrier (APC) were among the armoured vehicles displayed by Pakistan's state-owned Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) at the seventh International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi.
> 
> The Al-Khalid, a product of Chinese and Pakistani co-operation, is currently being marketed overseas by China as the MBT-2000 without Pakistani permission, an HIT spokesman stated . On 8 November HIT moved to close this loophole by signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on Al-Khalid exports with Chinese firm Norinco.
> 
> An Al-Khalid main battle tank, the premium product of Heavy Industries Taxila, on display at IDEAS 2012. (Gordon Arthur) The MoU arranges for joint marketing and profit sharing between the two partners, as well as ongoing technology transfer. Potential export markets for the Al-Khalid include Bangladesh, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and the Middle East, said the spokesman, who nonetheless acknowledged that it is competing in a very challenging market.
> 
> More than 300 of the 46-tonne MBTs have entered Pakistan Army service since 2001 - the first 215 of which were fitted with a Ukrainian engine. Meanwhile, a senior official at Ministry of Defence Procurement said an improved version is nearing induction that will feature a more powerful diesel power pack, improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities. HIT manufactures around 20 Al-Khalid tanks a year and also produces the Al-Zarrar MBT. A spokesman said HIT has no intention of marketing the latter internationally, adding that its lesser capabilities render it uncompetitive.
> 
> HIT also exhibited an improved Talha APC that Qasim Ijaz Cheema, an HIT marketing manager, said had been developed in response to an army request.
> 
> HIT has developed the Talha M113P with a cupola and angled add-on armour suite that offers higher protection levels. (Gordon Arthur) The 11.2-tonne Talha is based on the US Combat Systems M113A2/M113A3 series and is often referred to as the M113P. It features a modular armour package consisting of Kevlar sandwiched between steel on the outside and aluminium on the inside and a 1,375 kg bolt-on armour package that can resist 12.7 mm rounds. The M113P, which is armed with a rotating cupola mounting a heavy machine gun and powered by a 275 hp engine, has been sold to Iraq and is also available in a longer version.
> 
> Cheema said the Talha and Al-Khalid upgrades reflected HIT's current focus on improving and up-armouring existing products suitable for the type of internal defence duties the armed forces are currently engaged in, rather than developing new vehicle designs.
> 
> HIT also displayed three Muhafiz 4x4 armoured vehicle variants in service with Pakistani police, ranger and army units, including the latest 3,200 kg Muhafiz III security vehicle fitted with a remote-controlled weapon system. The latest version is based on a Toyota Land Cruiser chassis and is capable of 120 km/h on roads. The indigenously designed Muhafiz has already won sales to Bangladesh, Iraq and Sri Lanka.
> 
> JDW



more powerful engine and only first 215 were fitted with Ukraine engine
Does it mean that even the al khalid 1 will have a more powerfull engine

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## farhan_9909

any idea about the above piece of info

upgraded engine for AK1?

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## Dr. Strangelove

farhan_9909 said:


> any idea about the above piece of info
> 
> upgraded engine for AK1?


maybe it will be a chinese or another Ukrainian engine

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## farhan_9909

good if more powerfull engine
but even the 1200hp was sufficient 

but the improve engine suggest that not just 2tonnes but even more than this weight of AK1 is increased

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## farhan_9909



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## Tehmasib



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## farhan_9909

Tehmasib said:


>




This is t-80UD


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## Manticore

Any updates guys ? I have not searched on the subject for quite some time


http://i.imgur.com/5e2My.jpg


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## Manticore

BMS 





Category : Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)





some picture links have become dead -- please upload them if you have saved them on your hard drive


gids ibms pics are dead .. i've uploaded one from my hard drive


http://www.gids.com.pk/gimages/ibms2.jpg
http://www.gids.com.pk/gimages/ibms4.jpg
http://www.gids.com.pk/gimages/ibms3.jpg











I am not asking for members to post every ak pic thay can think of .. for that you have a thread present in multi media section





Solid State Autoloader
http://www.carepvtltd.com/Electronics/cms.php?id=Solid_State_Autoloader

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## farhan_9909

so what is the status?

the above news by sir fatman indicates that AK1 is yet to enter service

and has a upgraded engine and fcs/tm upgrades.

what about this?


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## Zarvan

Pakistan Army has signed the deal with Chinese company I want to know what is the deal is the deal of that they will develop this tank or the deal if of starting of serial production ?

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## Gentelman

hari sud said:


> Here is opinion published by "Strategy Page" about Al Khalid tank
> 
> *The Pride Of Pakistan Gets No Respect*
> 
> November 30, 2012: China has agreed to help Pakistan find export customers for its Al Khalid tank. Pakistan developed this tank with Chinese help and began equipping Pakistani Army units with it back in 2001. But export sales have been scarce. Only Sri Lanka agreed to buy, and only 22 tanks and that deal has yet to be finalized. Meanwhile China has sold several hundred of its version of the Al Khalid (the MBT-2000) to Morocco and Bangladesh.
> It wasnt supposed to work out this way. Pakistan, after all, has more recent experience in mechanized warfare. In fact, China has not fought a major campaign in over fifty years, and only two minor ones (mountain warfare with India in the 1960s, and some border battles in the jungles with Vietnam in 1979). China has done some air and naval skirmishing with the Taiwanese, but nothing as intense as what the Pakistanis have gone through as recently as 1999 (another mountain battle, with India). China has more money and industrial infrastructure than Pakistan, and this has helped Pakistan build up its military-industrial capabilities.
> 
> Back in the 1980s, when the two countries began this co-production deal, apparently they believed that Pakistan's stature in the Moslem world would provide a marketing advantage. Alas, the end of the Cold War, plus the spectacular performance of U.S. weapons in the 1991 Gulf War, made "cheap and simple" a much harder sell, especially if it was based on Russian designs. The end result is that China is getting some more arms exports because it is better at making sales. Pakistan has not been a total loser as they have been able to build up its arms production capability.
> 
> Meanwhile China is now offering a new tank, the MBT 3000, for export. The Chinese Army will begin receiving the MBT 3000 in two years. The 3000 appears to be a MBT 2000 with a slightly more powerful engine, more armor, improved suspension and running gear, and better electronics. While none of the individual changes is radical or greatly improved over MBT 2000, the total number of improvements is substantial.
> 
> The Chinese MBT 2000 (also known as the VT1A) tank is an export model of the Chinese Type 98/99. The MBT 2000 also looks similar to the Type 90/Al Khalid. The Type 98/99/90/MBT-2000 vehicles are all "improved T-72s." There were lots of improvements, though many of them similar to what's found in the Russian T-80UM2. The workmanship on these vehicles is a little better than on the T-80UM2 but the Chinese don't have as much experience building tanks. This has shown itself in the numerous technical glitches that have shown up.
> 
> The basic T-72 design has been around for over 30 years and has proved reliable, although not particularly effective on the battlefield. That was mostly due to poor crews. The Chinese have moved to volunteer crews and more intensive training, which make any tank more effective. The MBT 2000 is a 49 ton tank with a 125mm gun and a three man crew (plus an autoloader). The MBT 3000 weight only goes up to 51 tons but overall performance and reliability is greatly improved.
> 
> 
> Armor: The Pride Of Pakistan Gets No Respect



phewww...
HIT didnot advertised AK and AK1 because they were preety bzy in completing PAK Army orders...
they are still bzy bt it is tym for exporting AK...
and HIT is now making steps for exporting this product along chinees....
well thats now a worthy article..
just written to fill paper...
Pakistan is exporting AK to some countries.....
and some countries army is just waiting AK1 to be get revealed....
well in the the writer should also compare arjun exports..:p
JK=just kidding
well wait and watch

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## naseem shah

Modernization of Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Oleh Shevchenko, Chargé d'affaires Embassy of Ukraine has informed the media that Ukrainian companies will takepart in the modernization project of the Al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT) of the Pakistan Army.

Oleh Shevchenko said, "We will continue co-operation in developing technology for manufacturing military hardware, first of all in shape of Al-Khalid Project".


Upgraded Al Khalid MBT with combination of new armor and optional Explosives Reactive Armor (ERA) can withstand all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. Upgrade also includes improved transmission and electronic turret control for the Al Khalid Tanks. Tank also offers improved protection for the NBC (Nuclear, Biological & chemical) warfare.

Pakistani Al Khalid Tanks are equipped with Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and new active threat-protection system. Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has also increased Al Khalid's weapon carrying capability and now it will be able to carry 49 125mm HEAT & APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) and Naiza 125 mm DU rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds


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## Manticore

Does anyone want something to be edited / updated in the first 3 pages of this thread ? Any ideas ?

please PM me
ty


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## Manticore

ISLAMABAD: State-run companies of Pakistan and China today signed a contract for manufacturing the Al-Khalid-I tank, the latest version of the combat vehicle jointly developed by the two countries.

The Al-Khalid tank was developed in the 1990s and introduced in 2001.

The new version has improved capability and systems, an official statement said.

The contract for making the new tanks was signed by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila and China's NORINCO at the Ministry of Defence Production.

The joint marketing of the Al-Khalid tank with China would open up potential markets, the statement said

Pakistan, China sign contract for manufacturing Al-Khalid-I tank - The Economic Times




Mon, Dec 31, 2012 17:10 CET
Pakistan and China today signed a contract to manufacture a version of the jointly developed Al-Khalid-I tanks.

First developed in the 1990&#8217;s, the tank was introduced in 2001 with the new version equipped with has improved capability and systems.

The contract was signed by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila and China's NORINCO at the Ministry of Defence Production.

The joint marketing of the Al-Khalid tank with China would open up potential markets, the statement said.
China, Pakistan To Manufacture New Version Of Al-Khalid Tanks : Defense news

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## farhan_9909

ANTIBODY said:


> ISLAMABAD: State-run companies of Pakistan and China today signed a contract for manufacturing the Al-Khalid-I tank, the latest version of the combat vehicle jointly developed by the two countries.
> 
> The Al-Khalid tank was developed in the 1990s and introduced in 2001.
> 
> The new version has improved capability and systems, an official statement said.
> 
> The contract for making the new tanks was signed by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila and China's NORINCO at the Ministry of Defence Production.
> 
> The joint marketing of the Al-Khalid tank with China would open up potential markets, the statement said
> 
> Pakistan, China sign contract for manufacturing Al-Khalid-I tank - The Economic Times



Good news..the janes source also indicates a improve engine,

seems like they re-upgraded the proposed AK1 further with new engine beside from other changes like thickened side skirts,sagem matis thermal imagers and other changes like improved increased ammo capacity etc

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## Manticore

HIT Al-Khalid

Notes: Also called the MBT-2000 (particularly during development), the Al-Khalid is touted as Pakistan&#8217;s first indigenous tank design, but is believed to incorporate much of its design from Type 90-IIs, Type 85s, and some other equipment supplied by China for analysis. Regardless of the origins of the Al-Khalid, it is essentially vehicle dissimilar enough to other tanks to be considered a new design, if not a completely independent one. The Al-Khalid was developed over the period from 1990-99, with production and fielding beginning in 2001. Most Western observers agree that the Al-Khalid is a surprisingly modern and effective design. Some 300 are in service with Pakistan, and they intend to being that total to 600. In addition, 22 Al-Khalids started being delivered to the Bangladeshi Army beginning in May 2008, and the Saudis are reportedly giving the Al-Khalid a hard look to supplement their M-1A2 Abrams tanks.

The design places the driver in the center front of the hull; he has a hatch which opens slightly upwards and to the left as to not interfere with turret rotation if the hatch is open. He has vision blocks giving him views to the right, left, and front; the frontal vision block can be replaced with an IR vision block. The gunner has his own hatch, as the Al-Khalid uses an autoloader instead of a loader crewmember, and has vision blocks that allow vision to the front, rear, and right side. The gunner is equipped with a full night vision suite, including a 2nd-generation thermal imager developed by France. The gunner also has an image intensification scope and a conventional telescopic sight; all of which are stabilized. The commander has his own thermal imager, image intensifier, and conventional telescopic sight, in a separate sensor head that gives the Al-Khalid a hunter-killer capability. The commander also has emergency controls for the main gun and coaxial machinegun. The Al-Khalid has a ballistic computer of French design, along with a laser designator of Chinese design.

The main gun is a version of the Chinese ZPT-98 gun, though the barrel has a length of 48 calibers. The gun is fed by an autoloader that has a capacity of 24 rounds, with additional ammunition being stored in the hull of the Al-Khalid. In addition to being able to fire indigenous and foreign 125mm rounds, the gun can also fire a Chinese license-produced version of 9M119 Reflecks (AT-11 Sniper) gun-launched ATGM. The autoloader is improved over that of the Al-Zarrar, able to handle newer long-rod penetrators. (ATGM rounds must be hand-loaded.) The laser rangefinder acts as a designator when the 9M119 ATGM is fired. The commander&#8217;s machinegun can be aimed and fired from under armor. On each side of the turret is a cluster of five smoke grenade launchers. The Al-Kalid has a feature found in most of the newest generation of tanks: a battle management system called Rabhar by the Pakistanis. This is a computerized system that not only monitors the state of the tank and feeds the appropriate information to the crew, but also plots the location of enemy and friendly units and keeps them updated as new information becomes available. It also passes orders from higher headquarters down and allows the commander to give orders to subordinate units, as well as providing any other intelligence and information the commander may require. This system also has GPS, with inertial navigation as a backup. The tank&#8217;s electronic systems are connected to large batteries for "silent watch" use.

In development, the Al-Khalid was powered by an MTU-396 diesel engine with a German LSG-3000 transmission. Germany placed an embargo on these items in the mid-1990s due to their stance on development of indigenous nuclear weapons, and this led to the Pakistanis fitting the Al-Khalid with a license-produced Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 1200-horsepower engine and a French SESM ESM-500 fully-automatic transmission. This engine had the virtue of being smaller than the German engine, yet provided the same 1200 horsepower. The Al-Khalid can carry auxiliary fuel tanks at the rear a la Russian/Chinese tanks, though in practice they are little used except in long road marches.

Armor protection is modular, allowing for quick battle damage repairs and improvement as more advanced armor becomes available or heavier armor is desired. Frontal armor is composite and of Pakistani design, with side armor being spaced; it is of a more modern design than that on the Al-Zarrar and lighter in weight. The turret front, turret sides, glacis, and hull sides have lugs for ERA. Attention was paid to land mine damage in the form of thickened floor armor. The ammunition is carried in armored bins, and virtually the entire vehicle has thick Kevlar anti-spalling blankets. The engine also has a thick bulkhead separating it from the crew compartment. An automatic explosion and fire suppression system is provided, and the crew has an NBC overpressure system; the engine compartment and ammunition bins have their own systems of the same sort. The Al-Khalid has a laser detection system that can automatically trigger smoke grenades to block the laser, and a radar warning system that can give the crew a chance to take evasive action.

Twilight 2000 Notes: Though the Pakistanis were able to field some Al-Khalids in the Twilight 2000 timeline, only some 50 or so were available for the Twilight War.


Pakistani Tanks


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## Manticore

> The main gun is a version of the Chinese ZPT-98 gun, though the barrel has a length of 48 calibers. The gun is fed by an autoloader that has a capacity of 24 rounds, with additional ammunition being stored in the hull of the Al-Khalid.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...t-2000-information-pool-26.html#ixzz2Gr0z95Nh





does al khalid tank have blow off panels? any rounds stored in bustle?


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## Dazzler

ANTIBODY said:


> does al khalid tank have blow off panels? any rounds stored in bustle?



22 stored in the carosel, rest are in the armoured bins at the back, side, no round is left exposed in the turret.

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## farhan_9909

nabil_05 said:


> 22 stored in the carosel, rest are in the armoured bins at the back, side, no round is left exposed in the turret.



well the turret of AK is already bigger than the one on the t-90MS

cant we modify AK series with bustles?such as in the t-90ms


t-90ms


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## Dazzler

Armor protection is modular, allowing for quick battle damage repairs and improvement as more advanced armor becomes available or heavier armor is desired. Frontal armor is composite and of Pakistani design, with side armor being spaced; it is of a more modern design than that on the Al-Zarrar and lighter in weight. The turret front, turret sides, glacis, and hull sides have lugs for ERA. Attention was paid to land mine damage in the form of thickened floor armor. The ammunition is carried in armored bins, and virtually the entire vehicle has thick Kevlar anti-spalling blankets. The engine also has a thick bulkhead separating it from the crew compartment. An automatic explosion and fire suppression system is provided, and the crew has an NBC overpressure system; the engine compartment and ammunition bins have their own systems of the same sort. The Al-Khalid has a laser detection system that can automatically trigger smoke grenades to block the laser, and a radar warning system that can give the crew a chance to take evasive action.


Pakistani Tanks

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## Dizer

Looks quiete similar to the korean k2..looks good

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## alimobin memon

Ok I am not sure if I am right but in Pak army selection board in Shah rah-e-Faisal There is some new tank in the billboard For a while i thought it was german leopard shown mistakenly but it is quite different Any one know ?


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## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Other than badmouthing and cursing others why don't you post credible proofs backed with proper assessment.
> 
> That is an armor module which is filled with composites only in the front as shown in the picture... the hollow space is to attach that heavy module properly to the turret without that it is likely to fall off while the tank is moving on rough terrain.
> 
> Modern MBTs like Arjun, Leo 2, Challenger, T-90S use hollow wielded blocks and fill them with composites... rather than using modules which would require bolting them up with some space to distribute the mass accordingly on the turret side Holding the large+heavy armor module block... as you can see in ZTZ99 and Al Khalid.



For the last time from my side, keep this thread info related, discuss your fantasy parade else where, i dont have time to repeat the same story, go through the info pool from 1st page if you are serious about information on AK.

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## Manticore

This is an info pool, not a comparison thread with xyz


for that, members can post here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/22400-pa-tanks-comparison-contempory-tanks-23.html

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## Manticore

Oscar said:


> Incorrect again, you assume that the Ak is still a tweak in reality.
> Whilst being far from it, every part of the AK is modular, turret down.. rather.. its VERY easy to meet new requirements with the AK...heck, there's even a concept of an AK with a Sam turret, one Ak APC, one Fatter AK that that would weigh 70 tons.. and a Recovery vehicle. That is adaptability..
> Upto to you to accept it, I can, part of my work is on a few AK stuff.
> I know better.





Oscar said:


> Exactly..
> So unless you know the actual ground realities, one cannot comment.
> However as for disclosure.. some of us disclose what is open knowledge in most circles.
> 
> So when it comes to the question of how Chinese was the Ak.. and how Chinese is it now.. the answer is 80% before.. and 10% now.
> None of the electronics in the AK are now Chinese.. all are manufactured locally from components imported from various sources.(even INDIA!!). Much like the Arjun...
> So whilst the basic tank design philosophy is from a Type-69(itself a hodgepodge of the T-54,T-64 and T-72 tank)..the AK is not a Chinese tank at all.
> The idea of mine is not to compare, but rather clear up the need to bring in the argument of indigenous design as an excuse for superiority.
> That is not.. and should NEVER be a criteria in comparing any equipment as far as performance is concerned.
> Where that factors in is logistics and procurement.
> 
> Back to the Arjun..
> What happened to the rumored UAV that was to go along with the command variant? Heard a lot of talk on it on BR once.



--------------------------------------


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/106975-tank-designs-12.html

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## fatman17

*Armoured shift*

Last posted:2013-01-24

Contents
France's Leclerc
The ubiquitous Leopard
Advent of the Altay
The Challenger fleet
East European developments
Middle Eastern developments
Asian MBT progress
Lighter tanks
The years ahead

MBTs have proved to be highly effective in Iraq and Afghanistan, where their heavily protected firepower and mobility have proved invaluable. However, while a number of MBT programs continue worldwide, many European countries now no longer produce them. Christopher F Foss investigates 

Oman has been the only export customer for the UK's Challenger 2 MBT. (BAE Systems) 

Until recently, the design, development, and production of main battle tanks (MBTs) was concentrated in Europe and the United States. However, over the last few years this has all changed, with a number of European countries no longer having the capability to design, develop, and manufacture highly complex MBTs. 

Another reason for the European downturn is the potentially huge cost of taking an MBT from concept through to prototype, pre-production, and quantity production and continuing a programme through life support. 

However, a number of non-Western countries have now entered the MBT market, although their platforms often use European subsystems.

The end of the Cold War has resulted in some countries making cuts to MBT fleets. These surplus vehicles have either been sold or given away. German Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 MBTs, for example, have been exported in significant numbers, as have US-built M60A1/A3s. A large numbers of surplus Russian-designed T-54/55 and T-72 MBTs have also found new homes in Africa and elsewhere since the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. 

Sweden and Switzerland, meanwhile, still have the capability to design, develop, and manufacture MBTs, but following competitive trials have instead opted to manufacture the German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2 MBT under licence to replace their fleets. 

While almost all countries have significantly reduced their MBT fleets, a number of European countries are considering removing MBTs from their AFV inventories altogether as they see no long-term requirement for them. The Royal Netherlands Army (RNLA), for example, had a fleet of 468 Leopard 1s, 445 Leopard 2s, and 180 upgraded Leopard 2A6s, but in 2010 these were phased out of service. 

The Al Khalid is the latest MBT to be manufactured in Pakistan. It is armed with a 125 mm gun and features an advanced armour package that includes ERA over the frontal arc. (Heavy Industries Taxila) 

In the Middle East, however, there is no sign of a reduction in fleet sizes. A number of countries have even procured new MBTs to enhance their armoured capability or to replace ageing vehicles for which spare parts are becoming difficult to obtain. 

MBTs are among the most flexible land weapon systems and can be used across the full military spectrum, ranging from conventional manoeuvre warfare to peace enforcement and counterinsurgency (COIN) operations. 

Vehicles employed for the latter have been modified with enhanced armour protection, electronic devices to counter improvised explosive devices (IEDs), roof-mounted remote weapon stations (RWSs), and cameras for enhanced situational awareness. 

Air conditioning, meanwhile, is now considered an essential MBT system for providing a suitable working environment for the crew and keeping electronic systems cool and fully operational. 

All of the electronic equipment in the latest generation of MBTs, including communications and battle management systems, demand increasing levels of power, so many recently designed MBTs have an auxiliary power unit (APU) fitted as standard. This allows key subsystems to run with the main engine switched off, saving fuel and potentially reducing the acoustic and thermal signature of the vehicle. 

An MBT's primary weapon - usually a 120 mm smoothbore main gun - normally fires two main types of round: armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding sabot (APFSDS) and high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT). Since these are not well suited to COIN operations, development has been undertaken of more specialised rounds, including the Rheinmetall 120 mm DM12 HE, which includes a programmable fuze for use against area targets and dug-in infantry. 


Additionally, Israel Military Industries has developed and produced an Anti-Personnel Anti-Materiel (APAM) round that is being manufactured in 105 mm and 120 mm calibres, while the rifled 120 mm gun of the BAE Systems Challenger 2 can fire the High-Explosive Squash Head (HESH) round that was originally developed to counter armoured vehicles but is highly effective against bunkers and other targets. 

France's Leclerc
The French Army replaced its AMX-30 MBTs with the Nexter Systems Leclerc MBT, with a total of 406 being delivered by 2007. A batch of 20 Leclerc armoured recovery vehicles (ARVs) were also procured, although other support vehicles were based on the older AMX-30 hull. 

An IDF Merkava Mk 4 MBT armed with a 120 mm smoothbore gun and fitted with the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Trophy hard-kill DAS. (Rafael) 

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) took delivery of 436 Leclercs under the type's only export order, which included ARVs based on a lengthened hull with an additional road wheel on either side. 

Compared with French Army Leclercs, the UAE's vehicles had a number of enhancements, including the installation of the German 1,500 hp MTU EuroPowerPack, additional protection, air conditioning, a battle management system, and a commander's panoramic sight, including day/thermal channels and a laser rangefinder. 

Production of the Leclerc hull and integration of the turret took place at Nexter Systems' Roanne facility. However, while Nexter Systems is still technically capable of building Leclercs, the French fleet is being reduced to 254 vehicles, so surplus vehicles will probably be upgraded just to fulfil any export orders. 

The Roanne facility is currently overhauling 10 French Army Leclercs a year, and a number of enhancements are expected to be carried out on French Army vehicles in the future, funding permitting. 

To facilitate operations in a built-up environment, Nexter Systems has developed the AZUR (Action en Zone URban) kit for the Leclerc. Although tested by the French Army, the UAE is the first customer for this and has taken delivery of an initial batch of AZUR kits sufficient for one squadron of vehicles. 

The ubiquitous Leopard
Since rolling off the production line in 1979, the German Krauss-Maffei Leopard 2 has been the most commercially successful MBT in Europe and is now deployed by 15 countries. The final production German Army model was the Leopard 2A4, which was followed by the survivability-enhanced Leopard 2A5 and Leopard 2A6. 

The Leopard 2A5 retains the standard Rheinmetall 120 mm L/44 smoothbore gun, while the Leopard 2A6 has the longer Rheinmetall 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun, which increases the tank's effective combat range by about 1,500 m. 

Deployed by the German Army, the Leopard 2A6 is armed with the longer Rheinmetall 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun and has an enhanced armour package. 

For German Army service the Leopard 2A5 (125 units) and 2A6 (225 units) were upgrades, while for some countries these MBTs were built under licence: Greece and Spain produced 2A6s, while Sweden produced 2A5s, with each country incorporating a number of modifications to meet its own specific requirements. 

First shown in mid-2010, the latest version of the German MBT is the Leopard 2A7+. This has been demonstrated in the Middle East, where potential customers include Saudi Arabia and Qatar. It is expected that any future export-production Leopard 2s will be to this configuration but optimised to meet specific user requirements. The German Army is to take delivery of 20 Leopard 2A7+ Urban Operation variants from 2014. 

Leopard 2 production was shared between Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall. Of the 1,800 vehicles built for the German Army, 990 were built by the former and 810 by the latter. 

Rheinmetall has also supplied many key subsystems for Leopard 2s, including the 120 mm smoothbore gun and its family of ammunition as well as the vehicle's computerised fire-control system (FCS). 

Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall have retained stocks of surplus Leopard 2s that can be exported, overhauled, upgraded or converted into specialised support vehicles, such as ARVs, armoured vehicle-launched bridges (AVLBs), and armoured engineering vehicles (AEVs). 

Rheinmetall has also developed the Leopard 2A4-based MBT Revolution as a private venture that was first shown in mid-2010. This is a modular vehicle for which the end user can select items according to user requirements. The first such example retains the Rheinmetall 120 mm L/44 smoothbore gun and 1,200 hp MTU powerpack of the Leopard 2, but its capability has been enhanced by cameras for 360° situational awareness, a new passive armour package, grenade launchers covering 360°, an upgraded suspension, a roof-mounted 12.7 mm remote weapon station (RWS), a commander's roof-mounted panoramic sight, all-electric gun control equipment, and a fully digital turret. 

A Polish Anders hull fitted with the Belgian CMI Defence turret armed with a 105 mm rifled gun fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader. (CMI Defence) 

Advent of the Altay
Over the last 15 years Turkey has become self-sufficient in the design, development, and production of light and medium tracked and wheeled AFVs, some of which have had major success in the international export market, especially in Asia and the Middle East. 

NATO's European members, Turkey also has the largest MBT fleet. Its most potent vehicles are 298 German Army Leopard 2A4s and 170 US-supplied M60A3s, which have been upgraded to the M60T configuration by Israel Military Industries: a major and expensive upgrade that included a 120 mm smoothbore gun, computerised FCS, additional armour, and an MTU powerpack. 

Following a competition Otokar, which has built large numbers of wheeled AFVs for the home and export markets, was awarded the contract for development of the Altay MBT to meet Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC) requirements. In late 2012 the mobility test rig (MTR) and firepower test rig (FTR) for the Altay were completed and are now undertaking intensive trials. These will be followed by two prototype vehicles and then 250 production vehicles. 

The Altay has a conventional MBT design, a crew of four, a 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun (provided by Hyundai Rotem Company) coupled to a computerised FCS, day/thermal sights for the gunner, and a panoramic day/thermal sight for the commander. 

It is probable that the Altay will soon be the only MBT in production by a European NATO member, a possibility that could open up the door to significant export opportunities. 

The Challenger fleet.
In the United Kingdom BAE Systems delivered 386 Challenger 2 MBTs to the British Army and 38 to Oman, the latter MBTs being suitably optimised for use in the Middle East. 

The latest Russian MBT to be offered on the export market is the T-90MS, which has a number of improvements, especially in the area of survivability.

Beyond those fleets, however, no further sales were secured. For the export market the company did develop the Challenger 2E - which had a number of enhancements, including an MTU EuroPowerPack developing 1,500 hp - but all marketing of this variant has now ceased. 

Following completion of the last Terrier combat engineer vehicle in late 2013/early 2014, BAE Systems will close its Newcastle-Upon-Tyne facility and no longer have an AFV production capability in the UK. 

As a result of the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review the British Army will retain only three Challenger 2 regiments, each with 58 MBTs, plus a fleet of 227 vehicles in training and maintenance. 

For trials purposes a Challenger 2 has been fitted with a Rheinmetall 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun to replace its 120 mm L30 rifled tank gun: an upgrade that would have been part of a projected Challenger Capability Sustainment Programme (CCSP). 

The scope of this project has now been reduced, however, and a Challenger 2 Life Extension Programme (LEP) will now be carried out on the tank's L30 gun and 1,200 hp powerpack, with some of the vehicle's obsolete optronic and electronic subsystems also being replaced. 

Although the LEP will enable the Challenger 2 to remain in service until 2035, its main weapon system will be overmatched before then. 

The latest version of the Swedish CV90120-Tank fitted with the Adaptiv signature reduction system and a Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore low-recoil gun. (BAE Systems) 

East European developments
While the Soviet Union had four MBT production facilities, only two sites now remain in Russia: Omsk, which produced the T-80; and Nizhny Tagil, which produced the T-72 and is currently building the T-90. Both of these facilities are part of the UralVagonZavod Joint Stock Company Research and Production Corporation, which brings together more than 20 Russian companies engaged in the design, development, and production of land systems. 

There has been no recent production of the T-80, although quantities of vehicles are held in stock and sales have been made to Cyprus and South Korea. Yemen, meanwhile, received some vehicles from Belarus in 2010. 

As well as being in service with the Russian Army, the T-90 (which is a direct development of the T-72) has been exported to Algeria, India (including local production), Libya (not all delivered), and Turkmenistan. 

The latest export variant, the T-90MS, has received a number of armour, mobility, and firepower improvements. Its main gun is the latest 125 mm 2A46 series smoothbore, firing-enhanced ammunition, although it also retains the ability to fire laser-guided munition out to a range of 5,000 m. The T-90MS also sports an upgraded FCS with a commander's independent sight, a roof-mounted 12.7 mm RWS, a self-screening system, an upgraded powerpack, and an APU. 

An Altay Mobility Test Rig (MTG) being put through its paces at the Otokar facilities in Turkey late in 2012. (Otokar) 

In addition to the current-production T-90S MBT, UralVagonZavod is offering upgrades to the older T-55 and T-72 MBTs along with a range of supporting vehicles, including the BREM-1M ARV, 2S19 152 mm self-propelled artillery system, and the latest TOS-1A rocket launcher with its associated fuel-air-explosive rockets. 

Following the cancellation of the so-called T-95, Russia is now rapidly developing a new MBT called the Armata (or Armada). The first example of the Armata is scheduled for completion in 2013, with first production vehicles expected in 2015. This is a very tight development schedule, which, when compared with traditional Western MBT development programmes, leaves little time for the extensive trials necessary to iron out problems prior to the initiation of quantity production. 

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine retained the MBT production capability in Kharkiv, now known as the Malyshev Plant, and has exported more than 1,200 MBTs, many of which were surplus T-72s. 

Ukraine sold 320 T-80UDs to Pakistan and further developments resulted in the T-84, which has been supplied to the Ukrainian Army. 

The Malyshev Plant is now producing numerous MBT upgrades, with the latest being the BM Oplot, which is armed with a 125 mm smoothbore gun and has received survivability improvements. 

Middle Eastern developments
Countries in the Middle East have the largest MBT fleets outside China, India, Russia, Turkey, and the United States. Most countries in the region have been enhancing their fleets with the acquisition of new vehicles or upgrades. 

The latest MBT to enter production in South Korea is the advanced K2, which features a 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader and has a crew of three. (Hyundai Rotem) 

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) continue to procure the latest combat-proven Merkava Mk 4 MBTs, with all current production models being fitted with the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Trophy hard-kill defensive aids system (DAS). These serve alongside older Merkavas and upgraded M60s, which retain their 105 mm rifled guns but have received survivability improvements. 

Egypt continues to co-produce the General Dynamics Land Systems M1A1 Abrams MBT, which is also deployed by Australia (M1A1), Iraq (M1A1), Kuwait (M1A2), Saudi Arabia (M1A2), along with the US Army and US Marine Corps. Other countries, including potentially Greece, Morocco, and Taiwan, are expected to acquire surplus US Army M1A1 MBTs in the future. 

Iran, meanwhile, has run an ambitious AFV programme over the last 20 years and the country's Defense Industries Organization has developed and placed in production the Zulfiqar MBT. There are at least three known versions of this MBT, all of which are understood to be armed with a 125 mm smoothbore gun firing separate loading ammunition. 

Asian MBT progress
While MBT development in Europe has been significantly reduced and in some countries stopped, the same cannot be said for Asia, with China, India, South Korea, and Pakistan all now involved in the design, development, and production of MBTs to varying degrees of success. 

The latest MBT to be offered on the export market by NORINCO is the MBT-3000, which has an advanced armour package, a crew of three and a 125 mm smoothbore gun fed by an automatic loader. (NORINCO) 

Early Chinese tanks were based on Russian designs, but this has now changed. 

Today China is self-sufficient in the design, development and production of MBTs, although some subsystems may be based on imported technology. An example of the latter would be the 125 mm laser-guided projectile fired by China's latest Type 98/Type 99 MBTs that is based on the Russian Tula KBP Instrument Design Bureau 9K119 Reflecks system. 

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) is currently marketing only three locally developed MBTs on the export market: the MBT-3000 (weighing 52 tonnes and sporting a 1,300 hp powerpack); the MBT-2000 (weighing 48 tonnes with a 1,200 hp powerpack); and the VT2 (weighing 42.8 tonnes with an 800 hp powerpack). 

All are armed with a 125 mm smoothbore gun fed by an automatic loader that enables the crew to be reduced to three (commander, gunner, and driver) and have varying levels of armour protection. 

India, meanwhile, has aspired to be self-sufficient in the production of MBTs for many years, with the original requirement for an indigenously built MBT being issued in 1972. India's Arjun MBT has thus had a long development period, with the first production batch of 124 Arjun Mk 1s now complete and a second batch of Arjun Mk 2s subsequently ordered. 

To fulfil its MBT requirements in the meantime, India produced licenced versions of the Russian T-72M1 and then the T-90S, with the latter including a laser-guided missile manufactured by Bharat Dynamics. 

Compared with India, Pakistan has been far more successful, having worked closely with China and more recently Ukraine. All MBT development and production in Pakistan is undertaken at the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) facility, which also produces other tracked and wheeled armoured vehicles. 

Pakistan adopted a phased approach, starting with an upgraded version of the Chinese Type 59 MBT, which itself is based on the Russian T-54 developed at the end of the Second World War. This upgrade included replacement of the 100 mm rifled main armament with a 105 mm rifled gun, new sights for the commander and gunner, a computerised FCS, and additional armour. 

The French Army took delivery of 406 Leclerc MBTs, but this number is being reduced to 254. (C F Foss) 

This was followed by local assembly of the Chinese Type 69 under the designation Type 69 IIMP, which has the same 105 mm gun as the Type 59. 

Pakistan then took delivery of a significant batch of Chinese Type 85 MBTs before undertaking local production of an improved model called the Type 85 IIP, which has a 125 mm smoothbore gun fitted with an automatic loader (allowing the crew to be reduced to three). 

The latest MBT to enter production in Pakistan is the Al Khalid, which also uses some components from the Type 59s/Type 69s/Type 85s. It has a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 48 tonnes and is armed with a 125 mm smoothbore gun. 

While earlier diesel engines for Pakistani MBTs were supplied from China with progressive local production, for the Al Khalid programme Pakistan purchased 315 6TD-2 compact diesel engines from Ukraine. 

Prior to this Ukraine sold 350 T-80UD MBTs to Pakistan, which were delivered between 1997 and 1999.

South Korea, meanwhile, now has also become self-sufficient in all types of AFVs, including MBTs. Hyundai Rotem Company, as the country's prime contractor for tanks, is estimated to have manufactured around 1,500 K1 MBTs for the Republic of Korea (RoK) Army, although the first South Korean test rigs were completed by General Dynamics Land Systems in the United States. 

The original K1 has a combat weight of 51.1 tonnes and is armed with a standard 105 mm M68A1 rifled tank gun coupled to a computerised FCS that includes day/thermal sights. 

The Brazilian Army has taken delivery of surplus German Army Leopard 1A5s as well as more specialised support vehicles. (Brazilian Army) 

This was followed by the K1A1 in 1996, which not only features a locally manufactured 120 mm M256 smoothbore gun (as installed in the US General Dynamics Land Systems M1A1/M1A2 Abrams) but also has a commander's day/thermal panoramic sight, enhanced armour, and upgraded electronics. 

Currently in production is the 55-tonne K2 MBT, which is a brand new design. This has a crew of three and a 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader, which holds ready-use ammunition. The L/55 is coupled to a computerised FCS, which provides a high first-round hit probability, while the commander has a panoramic stabilised sight. 

Like the K1/K1A1, the K2 has a hydro-pneumatic suspension, with its 1,500 hp MTU powerpack giving a power-to-weight ratio of 27.27 hp/tonne. 

In Malaysia the most well-armed vehicles deployed until recently were the country's SIBMAS 6x6 and Scorpion tracked reconnaissance vehicles, which were both armed with a 90 mm gun. However, the country has now taken delivery of a fleet of 48 Polish PT-91M MBTs along with key support vehicles, including six WZT-91M ARVs, three MID-91M AEVs, and five PMC-91M AVLBs. 

Singapore, meanwhile, has received 96 ex-German Army Leopard 2s, of which 66 have been deployed and the remainder used for spare parts. At least part of this fleet has been upgraded with a new passive armour package supplied by Germany's IBD. 

Singapore has also acquired from Rheinmetall Buffel ARVs based on surplus Leopard 2 hulls as well as Leguan AVLBs from Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. 

While Indonesia currently only deploys the obsolete AMX-13 light tank, it is expected in future to acquire Leopard 2s.

The Rheinmetall MBT Revolution is based on a Leopard 2 and is shown here fitted with a host of improvements including a new armour package, 360° cameras and roof-mounted RWS. (Rheinmetall) 

Lighter tanks.
The GVW of MBTs has been increasing over the last 40 years. This increased weight has resulted from necessary higher levels of protection and an increase in the main armament calibre from a 105 mm rifled gun to a 120 mm smoothbore weapon. 


While MBTs can be deployed in most parts of the world, South America, Asia, and parts of Africa tend not to have the road infrastructure (including bridges) to handle their weight. 

To meet Argentina's operational requirements, Thyssen Henschel (now Rheinmetall) developed the TAM medium tank, an associated infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) and a family of more specialised vehicles. 

The TAM weighs around 30 tonnes and is fitted with a three-person turret armed with a 105 mm rifled gun and is therefore suitable for use in South America. 

BAE Systems in Sweden developed, as a private venture, the CV90120-T tank, with the first example being completed in 1998. This was based on the proven CV90 IFV, which is deployed by Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. 

The CV90120-T is fitted with a three-person turret that was originally fitted with the Swiss RUAG Defence 120 mm Compact Tank Gun (CTG) coupled to a computerised FCS. Since it was first demonstrated, however, the CV90120-T has been further developed as new technology has become available. 

The latest version of the vehicle was shown in late 2011 fitted with the Rheinmetall 120 mm RH 120 LLR L/47 smoothbore gun, an Adaptiv signature reduction system, and Soucy rubber band tracks, which offer a number of advantages including low weight, reduced vibration, and a lower acoustic signature. 

The CV90120-T thus has the same firepower as the most commonly deployed Leopard 2 and the same level of mobility, but since it typically weighs around 35 tonnes, depending on the configuration, it has greater deployability. It does not, of course, have the same level of ballistic protection as the Leopard 2, but its survivability can be enhanced with the installation of a DAS. 

With the reduction in the size of the German Army, significant numbers of surplus Marder 1 IFVs have been offered for sale, with Chile having already taken delivery of a batch. Taking the baseline Marder 1 IFV hull as a starting point, Rheinmetall has upgraded the vehicle's armour and mobility, but in addition to the IFV version it has produced a direct-fire/tank version. This was shown in mid-2012 and is fitted with the Oto Melara turret from the Centauro armoured car. 

To meet domestic and potential export requirements, Poland's Bumar developed the Anders multirole platform, which was shown in 2012 fitted with the Belgian CMI Defence CT-CV turret and elements of the Zaslon active defence system. 
An upgraded Marder 1 hull complete with applique armour and a three-person turret armed with a 105 mm gun. (Rheinmetall) 

The CT-CV turret has been developed as a private venture and can be integrated on to a wide range of tracked and wheeled AFVs. A two-person turret, it is armed with a 105 mm CV rifled gun coupled to a computerised FCS and fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader that carries 18 rounds of ready-use ammunition. As well as APFSDS, this can include the Falarick laser-guided missile from Ukraine, which features a tandem HEAT warhead and enables targets to be engaged out to a range of 5,000 m - beyond the range of the 105 mm gun. 

The years ahead
Rather than procure new MBTs, most countries are looking to upgrade their existing vehicles' armour, mobility and firepower to extend the operational life of their tank fleets. This is best done by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) or a company that has been engaged in producing the vehicle at the subsystem level, with some understanding and knowledge of system integration. Upgrades carried out by a variety of contractors spread across four or more countries can lead to major integration problems, low reliability, and delayed in-service dates. 

Since the tank first appeared on the battlefield more than 95 years ago there have been many occasions in which, prompted by the advent of potentially more effective weapon systems such as attack helicopters and new anti-tank weapons, pundits have claimed that such heavy armour no longer had a role to play in future conflicts. The MBT, however, has proven to be adaptable to an evolving battlefield, especially in the areas of armour and survivability. 

Countries wanting to retain a full warfighting capability would thus be well advised to retain MBTs as part of their overall ground manoeuvre capability, which includes everything from MBTs to IFVs, lighter armoured vehicles, conventional tube and rocket artillery, combat engineering capabilities, logistic support, and aviation elements backed up by a range of ISTAR assets. 

Christopher F Foss is the Land Consultant, based in London.

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## Dazzler



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## Liquidmetal

nabil_05 said:


>



what is it?


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## alimobin memon

Liquidmetal said:


> what is it?



Probably ERA bricks or Extra ARmour Bricks


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## 帅的一匹

Update Al Khalid to MBT3000 level.

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## TaimiKhan

wanglaokan said:


> Update Al Khalid to MBT3000 level.



Except of engine power and tank weight, what is so much special about MBT 3000 which the Al Khalid doesn't have ??

With western FCS & western Night Vision Systems plus other western systems in place, i believe Al Khalid is superior in performance when compared to MBT 3000 which will be having all Chinese systems in place. 

Do remember Al Khalid has been designed specifically keeping in mind the harsh environments of the desert terrain of Pakistan and it is adequately meeting the challenge. Yeah would agree that it needs more advanced armor system to give it better protection and if possible a hard kill APS would give it a wonderful probability to stay for a longer time period in the battlefield.

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## Manticore

*CREW BAY EXPLOSION, DETECTION AND SUPPRESSION SYSTEM*

A military vehicle is designed for strength, its armour affording protection to the crew and giving them the confidence to perform in battle. But the possibility remains that penetration of its fuel tanks or fuel and hydraulic lines can lead to a devastating fireball, causing severe burning and toxic gas poisoning within milliseconds. This threat inevitably affects crew morale and it is therefore important to give the crew a means of surviving in the battlefield environment. The crew bay system is able to sense the incipient hazard and recognise it as an explosive fire within 2-3ms and to effect complete suppression in approx 100ms. It uses fast response sensors and rapid acting high-rate discharge suppressors. Because suppression has taken place in a few tens of milliseconds, the radiation from the fireball is harmless, the temperature rise is minimal, the pressure increase is survivable and, most importantly, the amount of toxic gas generated is limited to safe levels. The vehicle and crew have survived to fight another day. Crew bay systems are fitted to a range of vehicles including Leopard 2, CRARRV, Tariq, Al-Khalid, Marconi Marksman, T90, Leclerc, M1A1, M1A2, LAV25, C1 Ariete MBT and Chunma amongst others.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3896.html
[from pak def]


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## Glitcher

Any News on Al-Khalid 3?


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## Manticore

FY-4, FY-5, the reactive armor tanks of the People's Liberation Army 96, 99 (1/1)
Field of reactive armor, Russia's "contact" series is undoubtedly the most famous, most recognized as a. PLA's "reaction" series transparency, do not know how specific performance, unknowingly has developed into a series. The following series FY-4, the main equipment of the PLA for FY-5 96 series, 99 series main battle tanks [url]http://pic2.itiexue.net/pics/2010_3_17_29573_1082957[/url]
[url]http://pic.tiexue.net/bbs_4141278_1.html[/url]

[quote="Liquidmetal, post: 3888032"]what is it?[/QUOTE]

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## Dazzler

AK long rod..... estimated length= 800-820mm!!

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## Dazzler



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## Armstrong

@nabil_05 : 

Yaraaa a question & a clarification, if you will : 

(a) What is estimated penetration of this newly developed round ? 

(b) About the AZ Auto loader thing - Are you saying this new round doesn't fit the AZ Auto Loader or are you saying that this new round was created because the previously comparable round didn't fit the AZ Auto Loader ?


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## Umair Nawaz

TaimiKhan said:


> Except of engine power and tank weight, what is so much special about MBT 3000 which the Al Khalid doesn't have ??
> 
> With western FCS & western Night Vision Systems plus other western systems in place, i believe Al Khalid is superior in performance when compared to MBT 3000 which will be having all Chinese systems in place.
> 
> Do remember Al Khalid has been designed specifically keeping in mind the harsh environments of the desert terrain of Pakistan and it is adequately meeting the challenge. Yeah would agree that it needs more advanced armor system to give it better protection and if possible a hard kill *APS* would give it a wonderful probability to stay for a longer time period in the battlefield.


what is an APS????


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## Dazzler

should be between 600-700mm @ 2 km estimated. Enough to knock out any adversary 

AZ means t-72 autoloader, AK and Type-99 both fire this round so their autoloader is modified.

The round is known as Norinco Type-2 M




125 mm NORINCO APFSDS-T ammunition (China), Tank and anti-tank guns

Development 
This 125 mm Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding-Sabot - Tracer (APFSDS-T) ammunition was developed by NORINCO as a commercial venture to equip existing 125 mm tank gun users and to provide projectiles for use in the Chinese 125 mm tank gun, details of which have yet to be announced, installed on the Type 98 and Type 99 MBTs. The NORINCO rounds, the 125-I and 125-II, use a propellant system based on the Russian Federation original, but the projectile assemblies are completely different, based on Western tungsten-rod technology allied to an up-to-date sabot assembly. This round was first shown during 1993. The most recent and current model being offered is designated the Type II-M.Attempts to produce a close copy of the 125-I round have been made in Pakistan. According to reports, these attempts led to technical difficulties regarding the tungsten alloy used for the NORINCO penetrator, the results of which were in-bore break-ups of the penetrator rod when fired. A change was considered to the same tungsten alloy already used by Alsons to manufacture and machine 105 mm L64 APFSDS-T penetrators for manufacturing the 125 mm round, but the problem has been reported as rectified.India's Ordnance Factory Board has developed an almost identical 120 mm APFSDS-T round to that produced by China and Pakistan. This round may have been inspired by examination of rounds captured from Pakistan during action and is known as the T-2A. It has been in service with the Indian Army since 1997.

Description 
NORINCO 125 mm APFSDS-T rounds are separately loading munitions. They are loaded into the breech and are surrounded, behind the sabot assembly, by an integral combustible propellant charge in a combustible case and are followed by a semi-combustible propellant case.On both the 125-I and the 125-II, the projectile assembly is made up of a light-alloy three-segment sabot and a monobloc tungsten-alloy penetrator rod forming the sub-projectile. The penetrator rod and the sabot are interfaced by a series of mating buttresses, and a plastic slipping obturator ring encircles the sabot. The 125-I penetrator rod has a diameter of 28 mm, is 554 mm long, has a length-to-diameter (L/D) ratio of approximately 19.8:1 and weighs 4.03 kg. The penetrator rod has a light-alloy windshield over the nose and a light-alloy six-finned fin assembly at the rear. It is assumed that the fin assembly contains a tracer element. The 125-II projectile assembly weighs 7.44 kg, and the penetrator rod is 26 mm in diameter, presumably yielding a greater L/D ratio.The two-component propellant system is carried over from the design of the Russian Federation 125 mm APFSDS-T. Both components are encased in what is described as a flammable nitrocellulose-based paper tube impregnated with TNT, which is totally consumed on firing. A steel stub case, weighing 3.4 kg and containing the electrical primer, remains to be ejected after firing. The case is 140 mm long and has a flange diameter of 171.9 mm.The muzzle velocity of the 125-I is 1,730 m/s. 


125 mm NORINCO APFSDS-T ammunition (China) - Jane's Ammunition Handbook



Umair Nawaz said:


> what is an APS????




Active Protection System

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## Umair Nawaz

ANTIBODY said:


> *CREW BAY EXPLOSION, DETECTION AND SUPPRESSION SYSTEM*
> 
> A military vehicle is designed for strength, its armour affording protection to the crew and giving them the confidence to perform in battle. But the possibility remains that penetration of its fuel tanks or fuel and hydraulic lines can lead to a devastating fireball, causing severe burning and toxic gas poisoning within milliseconds. This threat inevitably affects crew morale and it is therefore important to give the crew a means of surviving in the battlefield environment. The crew bay system is able to sense the incipient hazard and recognise it as an explosive fire within 2-3ms and to effect complete suppression in approx 100ms. It uses fast response sensors and rapid acting high-rate discharge suppressors. Because suppression has taken place in a few tens of milliseconds, the radiation from the fireball is harmless, the temperature rise is minimal, the pressure increase is survivable and, most importantly, the amount of toxic gas generated is limited to safe levels. The vehicle and crew have survived to fight another day. Crew bay systems are fitted to a range of vehicles including Leopard 2, CRARRV*, Tariq,* Al-Khalid, Marconi Marksman, T90, Leclerc, M1A1, M1A2, LAV25, C1 Ariete MBT and Chunma amongst others.
> Army Guide - Crew Bay, Fire fighting equipment
> [from pak def]


what is Tariq???????


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## Cool_Soldier

Alkhalid-2 is still awaiting...?

Here is link for article for some good top tanks...

DefenceArmy:Top Ranking Best Tanks of the World

Enjoy


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## Dazzler

Umair Nawaz said:


> what is Tariq???????



Jordanian customized Centurion MBT

Army Guide - Tariq, Main battle tank

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## Umair Nawaz

Cool_Soldier said:


> Alkhalid-2 is still awaiting...?
> 
> Here is link for article for some good top tanks...
> 
> DefenceArmy:Top Ranking Best Tanks of the World
> 
> Enjoy


they have shown wrong specs of AK....not a very credible report.


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## farhan_9909

From ministry of defence production

Notice the Varta APS on the production variant of Al khalid

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## farhan_9909

New round being developed for AK1 with enhanced penetration

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## Rajput_Pakistani

^^^ Sir, some questions regarding AK specs

1. Total number of rounds for main gun are 38+10 according to above specifications by MoD. My question is that does it include the number of rounds in auto loader i.e. 22. Or the number gets 38+10+22 = 70 ?

2. Secondly what about anti IR paint? Is it a new feature?

Thanks in advance

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## farhan_9909

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> ^^^ Sir, some questions regarding AK specs
> 
> 1. Total number of rounds for main gun are 38+10 according to above specifications by MoD. My question is that does it include the number of rounds in auto loader i.e. 22. Or the number gets 38+10+22 = 70 ?
> 
> 2. Secondly what about anti IR paint? Is it a new feature?
> 
> Thanks in advance



39 for Initially produced AK.
onwards 2007 produced basic AK and Ak1 both have now +10 more ammo capacity

and this the one in the autoloader as well(49 total).
This makes AK the most heaviest armed tank per tonnage.

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## Bratva

farhan_9909 said:


> From ministry of defence production
> 
> Notice the Varta APS on the production variant of Al khalid



Interesting air conditioning unit, IBMS and Active protections are treated as add ons. One wonder how many base line Al Khalid units have these add ons.

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## Manticore

@farhan_9909 can you post the internet site link for these images [browser snap shot of specs] or are these scanned images?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Interesting air conditioning unit, IBMS and Active protections are treated as add ons. One wonder how many *base line Al Khalid units have these add ons.*



This depends on the customer.. the PA is essentially a customer for the HIT.. and it depends on how much they have ordered.
So if a firm is churning out IBMS every month.. suffice to say that they have been ordered by a customer.

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## farhan_9909

ANTIBODY said:


> @farhan_9909 can you post the internet site link for these images [browser snap shot of specs] or are these scanned images?



Posted from ministry of defence production..they are just 2-3 months old(dec 2012)..they are snapshots not scanned



you can open each company product list in .pdf in the Organizations list
open the link
http://www.modp.gov.pk

such as list of HIT products

http://www.modp.gov.pk/gop/index.ph...mcm1EZXRhaWxzLmFzcHg/b3B0PW1pc2NsaW5rcyZpZD00



Oscar said:


> This depends on the customer.. the PA is essentially a customer for the HIT.. and it depends on how much they have ordered.
> So if a firm is churning out IBMS every month.. suffice to say that they have been ordered by a customer.



I am wondering which firm in pakistan manufacture the auxillary power unit?
does any AK in production has this?

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## farhan_9909

*From desto archieves*

Pakistans new generation MBT, the Al-Khalid II is a generational leap in capability over every tank Pakistan has employed with the possible exceptions of the Al-Khalid and T-80UD. 

The tank is externally very similar to the Al-Khalid, due to the success of its basic external design (though the turrets volume is slightly larger). Internally, however, the tank is not nearly as similar. While only 55% of the Al-Khalids components were essentially new (the rest were derived from existing designs), the new Al-Khalid II utilizes no components from any MBT other then the Al-Khalid. 35% of its components were not in the Al-Khalid. This makes the Al-Khalid II a substantially superior tank. Near every component has been changed in some way, some minor, some major. The fire-control system has been refined and improved in its speed at acquiring targets and making firing available in all conditions, particularly at high-speed over rough terrain. The commander is now available to acquire two targets independently, as opposed to one in the Al-Khalid. The laser-range finder has been made more robust, while the night-vision systems and all sights have been made more sensitive. 
In general, near all components have been made more robust, as part of the Armys drive to make the tank an ultra-reliable marvel of engineering. This is partially necessitated by a heavier design and more powerful (by 150hp) engine. 

*Perhaps the greatest advance in the tanks design is its armour. While maintaining the modular and thus easily modifiable armour of the Al-Khalid, it has added another layer. The Al-Khalid IIs armour is made up of as much as 6 layers of armour, a base layer of steel, a layer of ultra-hard composites (to defeat long rod penetrators), another more minimal layer of steel (all of these layers being spaced to prevent penetration by a HEAT warhead), a layer of Kevlar to defeat minor threats to the tank (like small arms and smaller armour-piercing threats), and then a layer of nERA (non-explosive reactive armour, in this case, rubber), and then finally a layer of (selectively applied) bricks of either composites (often employed in peacetime to save costs and maintenance) or ERA (explosive reactive armour) to defeat HEAT-type threats. The tank is also equipped with more effective damage control (like explosive suppression) systems.*

*The tanks armament is the same, but it has been made more lethal through the addition of more effective supporting systems. The autoloader maintains its speed of loading at 8-rounds a minute, but the carousel now holds 28 rounds, allowing more rounds to be stowed at ready. The new indigenous Niaza-II 125mm DU round (penetration: 650mm at 2,000m) is a significant improvement to the older Niaza rounds on the Al-Khalid. This is partially achieved through a longer penetration rod. *

Upgrading the Al-Khalid to Comparable Standard:
The Al-Khalid tank was specifically designed with modularity in mind. As a result, the Niaza-II will be employed on the tank, once significant numbers are manufactured. In addition, the armor has been upgraded to Al-Khalid II standards (roughly). An upgrade package for the Al-Khalid has been designated Al-Khalid IB, this will probably be employed on all Al-Khalid MBTs eventually. 

*Deploying the Al-Khalid II:
Pakistan requires 1200 Al-Khalid II, to replace the Type 59, Type 69, and Type 85-IIAP. Only 300 of these 1200 tanks (the Type 85-IIAP) are the only tanks considered capable enough to soldier on to 2020. Thus, 900 replacement tanks are required fairly rapidly, with 300 more needed thereafter. The procurement schedule will be as follows:
2012: 100, 2013: 200, 2014: 200, 2015: 200, 2016: 200, 2017: 150, 2018: 150*

The 2017 & 2017 national procurement will decrease to allow for exports, and due to decreased demand to replace the Type 85s. By 2014, this will allow the Type 59s, and by 2016 the Type 59s. Some of the 100 Al-Khalid IIs listed to enter service in 2012 (initial entry) will actually be built in late 2010, so that the tanks can trial (about 15) in 2011, in 2012 the tanks are projected to be cleared for service entry, as 100 of them reach the army. 

After 2016, the Al-Khalids will be upgraded en masse to Al-Khalid IB standard, as factory burden decreases. After 2014, some Al-Khalids may be upgraded for trials type purposes.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/21c/ar/t4517.htm

More about Babur II and Shaheen III in the link as well

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## krash

farhan_9909 said:


> *From desto archieves*
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s new generation MBT, the Al-Khalid II is a generational leap in capability over every tank Pakistan has employed with the possible exceptions of the Al-Khalid and T-80UD.
> 
> The tank is externally very similar to the Al-Khalid, due to the success of it&#8217;s basic external design (though the turret&#8217;s volume is slightly larger). Internally, however, the tank is not nearly as similar. While only 55% of the Al-Khalid&#8217;s components were essentially new (the rest were derived from existing designs), the new Al-Khalid II utilizes no components from any MBT other then the Al-Khalid. 35% of it&#8217;s components were not in the Al-Khalid. This makes the Al-Khalid II a substantially superior tank. Near every component has been changed in some way, some minor, some major. The fire-control system has been refined and improved in it&#8217;s speed at acquiring targets and making firing available in all conditions, particularly at high-speed over rough terrain. The commander is now available to acquire two targets independently, as opposed to one in the Al-Khalid. The laser-range finder has been made more robust, while the night-vision systems and all sights have been made more sensitive.
> In general, near all components have been made more robust, as part of the Army&#8217;s drive to make the tank an ultra-reliable marvel of engineering. This is partially necessitated by a heavier design and more powerful (by 150hp) engine.
> 
> *Perhaps the greatest advance in the tank&#8217;s design is it&#8217;s armour. While maintaining the modular and thus easily modifiable armour of the Al-Khalid, it has added another &#8220;layer.&#8221; The Al-Khalid II&#8217;s armour is made up of as much as 6 layers of armour, a base layer of steel, a layer of ultra-hard composites (to defeat long rod penetrators), another more minimal layer of steel (all of these layers being spaced to prevent penetration by a HEAT warhead), a layer of Kevlar to defeat minor threats to the tank (like small arms and smaller armour-piercing threats), and then a layer of nERA (non-explosive reactive armour, in this case, rubber), and then finally a layer of (selectively applied) bricks of either composites (often employed in peacetime to save costs and maintenance) or ERA (explosive reactive armour) to defeat HEAT-type threats. The tank is also equipped with more effective damage control (like explosive suppression) systems.*
> 
> *The tank&#8217;s armament is the same, but it has been made more lethal through the addition of more effective supporting systems. The autoloader maintains it&#8217;s speed of loading at 8-rounds a minute, but the carousel now holds 28 rounds, allowing more rounds to be stowed at ready. The new indigenous Niaza-II 125mm DU round (penetration: 650mm at 2,000m) is a significant improvement to the older Niaza rounds on the Al-Khalid. This is partially achieved through a longer penetration rod. *
> 
> Upgrading the Al-Khalid to Comparable Standard:
> The Al-Khalid tank was specifically designed with modularity in mind. As a result, the Niaza-II will be employed on the tank, once significant numbers are manufactured. In addition, the armor has been upgraded to Al-Khalid II standards (roughly). An upgrade package for the Al-Khalid has been designated Al-Khalid IB, this will probably be employed on all Al-Khalid MBTs eventually.
> 
> *Deploying the Al-Khalid II:
> Pakistan requires 1200 Al-Khalid II, to replace the Type 59, Type 69, and Type 85-IIAP. Only 300 of these 1200 tanks (the Type 85-IIAP) are the only tanks considered capable enough to soldier on to 2020. Thus, 900 replacement tanks are required fairly rapidly, with 300 more needed thereafter. The procurement schedule will be as follows:
> 2012: 100, 2013: 200, 2014: 200, 2015: 200, 2016: 200, 2017: 150, 2018: 150*
> 
> The 2017 & 2017 national procurement will decrease to allow for exports, and due to decreased demand to replace the Type 85s. By 2014, this will allow the Type 59s, and by 2016 the Type 59s. Some of the 100 Al-Khalid II&#8217;s listed to enter service in 2012 (initial entry) will actually be built in late 2010, so that the tanks can trial (about 15) in 2011, in 2012 the tanks are projected to be cleared for service entry, as 100 of them reach the army.
> 
> After 2016, the Al-Khalids will be upgraded en masse to Al-Khalid IB standard, as factory burden decreases. After 2014, some Al-Khalids may be upgraded for trials type purposes.
> 
> Defence Science & Technology Organization (DESTO) (21c)
> 
> More about Babur II and Shaheen III in the link as well



Very old article and I believe the author is misnaming Al-Khalid I as Al-Khalid II. A good read nonetheless.


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## Mian H Amin.

Upgraded variant of Pakistan's Al-Khalid MBT will soon be ready to deploy.

Al-Khalid is jointly produced by Pakistan and China and is one of the most capable Tank in the world. The New Al Khalid I & II versions will be denoted "Super Al Khalid" - SAK

(Super Al-Khalid I & II) or Al-Khalid  Upgraded variant is in testing as of April 2009. Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute), Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems), Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system.

Upgraded new Super Al Khalid MBTs with combination of new armor and optional Explosives Reactive Armor (ERA) can withstand all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. Upgrade also includes improved transmission and electronic turret control for the Al Khalid Tanks. Tank also offers improved protection for the NBC (Nuclear, Biological & chemical) warfare.

Pakistani Al Khalid Tanks are equipped with Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and new active threat-protection system. Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has also increased Al Khalid's weapon carrying capability and now it will be able to carry 49 125mm HEAT & APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) and Naiza 125 mm DU rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...k-ak-i-ii-main-battle-tank.html#ixzz2MYKOeDRQ

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## alimobin memon

Guys i have heared from more than 3 morrocan friends that the Morrocan Tank is not VT1-A but Alkhalid He gave me proof that there were Paksitani officers too during induction Ceremony. Alkhalid Production in pakistan started in 2002 with full scale and almost 50 tanks a year and pakistan alkhalid number is b/w 500 but there is still problem that Those Morroccan Quoted that there were pakistani officers not Chinese :/
Please Shed light on this.


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## farhan_9909

alimobin memon said:


> Guys i have heared from more than 3 morrocan friends that the Morrocan Tank is not VT1-A but Alkhalid He gave me proof that there were Paksitani officers too during induction Ceremony. Alkhalid Production in pakistan started in 2002 with full scale and almost 50 tanks a year and pakistan alkhalid number is b/w 500 but there is still problem that Those Morroccan Quoted that there were pakistani officers not Chinese :/
> Please Shed light on this.



please post the source of your news

which forum?


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## alimobin memon

farhan_9909 said:


> please post the source of your news
> 
> which forum?


The Guys are Facebook friends living in Morroco


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> The Guys are Facebook friends living in Morroco



i doubt it, it could be mbt 2000 but not AK, had it be AK, HIT would have sold it to Morocco not Norinco, presence of Pak troops there is no big deal as both tanks are based on the same platform i.e. Type-90IIM

Since a deal is now signed between Pak and China, any sale from here on will be considered as a joint deal but Morocco and BD deal took place before MoU signing.

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## RAMPAGE

guys why cannot HIT do the manufacturing of the new engine for AK

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## rohailmalhi

Mian H Amin. said:


> Upgraded variant of Pakistan's Al-Khalid MBT will soon be ready to deploy.
> 
> Al-Khalid is jointly produced by Pakistan and China and is one of the most capable Tank in the world. The New Al Khalid I & II versions will be denoted "Super Al Khalid" - SAK
> 
> (Super Al-Khalid I & II) or Al-Khalid &#8211; Upgraded variant is in testing as of April 2009. Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (*rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute*), Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems), Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system.
> 
> Upgraded new Super Al Khalid MBTs with combination of new armor and optional Explosives Reactive Armor (ERA) can withstand all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. Upgrade also includes improved transmission and electronic turret control for the Al Khalid Tanks. Tank also offers improved protection for the NBC (Nuclear, Biological & chemical) warfare.
> 
> Pakistani Al Khalid Tanks are equipped with Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and new active threat-protection system. Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has also increased Al Khalid's weapon carrying capability and now it will be able to carry 49 125mm HEAT & APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) and Naiza 125 mm DU rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...k-ak-i-ii-main-battle-tank.html#ixzz2MYKOeDRQ



Thats very impressive fire rate. 

What about ATGM .I heard this turret is modified to fire one . How many SAK can carry ?


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## Dazzler

rohailmalhi said:


> Thats very impressive fire rate.
> 
> What about ATGM .I heard this turret is modified to fire one . How many SAK can carry ?



ATGM is fitted inside the autoloader, Kombat ATGM from Ukraine

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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> ATGM is fitted inside the autoloader, Kombat ATGM from Ukraine





Nabil,

What would be the firm number of AK.....all models....in PA inventory?

Weren't we suppose to have replaced all the old tanks with AK by now?


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## Dazzler

Donatello said:


> Nabil,
> 
> What would be the firm number of AK.....all models....in PA inventory?
> 
> Weren't we suppose to have replaced all the old tanks with AK by now?





Brother,, 

i can just speculate but initially they were looking at around 600 mbts overall, however, the requirement has gone up to around 800-1000, this includes ALL verions, it will also replace T-85IIAP soon so it makes sense that the most numerous verison will be AK-1.

We may see Ak-2 equipping only elite units, similar to what Chinese have done with Type-99 series. Lets see what the future unfolds

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## Armstrong

nabil_05 said:


> Brother,,
> 
> i can just speculate but initially they were looking at around 600 mbts overall, however, the requirement has gone up to around 800-1000, this includes ALL verions, it will also replace T-85IIAP soon so it makes sense that the most numerous verison will be AK-1.
> 
> We may see Ak-2 equipping *only elite units*, similar to what Chinese have done with Type-99 series. Lets see what the future unfolds



Yaraa, a few questions, if you will : 

(i) What would constitute (even roughly) an 'Elite Unit' within an Armored Corp ? 

(ii) What would these Elites Units be tasked with doing, especially in the context of Pakistan, which would be different than what the Regular Units be doing ? 

(iii) I hope that Elite here does not constitute something of an Upper-Lower tier combo like Saddam's Republican Guards (well armed, well trained) & the Regular Iraqi Army (not so well armed & not so well trained) !


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## Tacticool

How much percentage of work being done on ak-2?
wikipedia showed that 2 prototypes are being tested.


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## farhan_9909

> Design and Control of Auto-Loader Control Unit of T-80 UD Tank



Completed Projects


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## TaimiKhan

Armstrong said:


> Yaraa, a few questions, if you will :
> 
> (i) What would constitute (even roughly) an 'Elite Unit' within an Armored Corp ?
> 
> (ii) What would these Elites Units be tasked with doing, especially in the context of Pakistan, which would be different than what the Regular Units be doing ?
> 
> (iii) I hope that Elite here does not constitute something of an Upper-Lower tier combo like Saddam's Republican Guards (well armed, well trained) & the Regular Iraqi Army (not so well armed & not so well trained) !



1. Elite units in terms of PA would be something which is old. An old unit in one definition is considered as old. 2ndly the best equipped unit is elite, meaning units equipped with AKs, T-80UDs are said to be elite units as they hold the best tanks in the inventory. 

2. These elite armored formations would be tasked with the most difficult or made the spear of any offensive operation. 

3. No, training in PA / Armored Corps is all equal for all units, its just the equipment which matters, but that also in some units, once we have more of these advanced tanks this inferiority / superiority thing will go away.

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## Fieldmarshal

TaimiKhan said:


> 1. Elite units in terms of PA would be something which is old. An old unit in one definition is considered as old. 2ndly the best equipped unit is elite, meaning units equipped with AKs, T-80UDs are said to be elite units as they hold the best tanks in the inventory.
> 
> 2. These elite armored formations would be tasked with the most difficult or made the spear of any offensive operation.
> 
> 3. No, training in PA / Armored Corps is all equal for all units, its just the equipment which matters, but that also in some units, once we have more of these advanced tanks this inferiority / superiority thing will go away.



their is no concept of elite/inferior/secondary units in PA or Pak armed forces. All are equal.
All units are rotated in and out of different Corps/Div/Brigades and when they are rotated/posted out they leave their equipment behind. as the equipment does not belong to any unit/battalion but it is the property of the Corps. 

so eg in armors case a unit which might be on al-Khalid on day might be on al-zarrars in 3-5 years time. all equipment is according to area of responsiblity of the corps in question.
no one and nothing is constant in Pak armed forces. this is true for all of PA. PAF and PN

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## TaimiKhan

Fieldmarshal said:


> their is no concept of elite/inferior/secondary units in PA or Pak armed forces. All are equal.
> All units are rotated in and out of different Corps/Div/Brigades and when they are rotated/posted out they leave their equipment behind. as the equipment does not belong to any unit/battalion but it is the property of the Corps.
> 
> so eg in armors case a unit which might be on al-Khalid on day might be on al-zarrars in 3-5 years time. all equipment is according to area of responsiblity of the corps in question.
> no one and nothing is constant in Pak armed forces. this is true for all of PA. PAF and PN



I don't believe you are right in every case here. All units are not rotated like normal infantry units do after every 3 years during peace time. A cousin of mine whose unit is an armored unit equipped with T-80UDs is still at Multan for nearly 10 years now, he served at Multan as Company commander, then 2IC and then CO, he is now gone but the unit is still at Multan. In armor formations units only move when equipment of same type is being used by both of them. I am in Peshawar & i am seeing the same armor unit guys since 2001. And how easy would it be that you hand AZ tanks to a unit which has been trained to handle AKs, that also just after 3-5 years ? Same is the case for HAT battalions, they hardly move and when they move, the swap their places with another HAT battalion. Similarly for MIB battalions, these are specialized battalions who can not be taken over by just a normal infantry unit, rather a MIB unit will be replaced by a MIB unit and these units spend more time compared to what normal infantry units spend. An assault engineer battalion will not go anywhere, it will go with the armor formation it is linked with, it will be there for the special task it has been raised for. A SP unit will not be posted to Peshawar or Quetta, rather the SP artillery will be there at its place and nor will another unit take over its guns, unit remains the same, equipment remains the same, location would remain the same, its the men which will rotate. 

So, PA does have specialized units, and some of them have better equipment and these units are charged with specialized tasks in case of war. And similarly for PN, PAF also. F-16s are stationed at Sargodha since 80s, Sqds which got equipped with them are still there, they only moved to Kamra when it was required, Sqds don't move until its completely necessary. Taking example of 5 Sqd, which left its Mirages, got the new Blk 52s and due to necessity had to move to Jacobabad. 9th & 11th Sqds with F-16s since the 1980s. 14th Sqd got them and then returned due to some specific reasons. The Sqds at Peshawar had A-5s since 80s and now Brand new JF-17s. So, even in PAF Sqds don't move, equipment does only when new arrives or in exceptional cases like 14 Sqd had to loose its. Its not done on routine by passing of 3-5 years.

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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> I don't believe you are right in every case here. All units are not rotated like normal infantry units do after every 3 years during peace time. A cousin of mine whose unit is an armored unit equipped with T-80UDs is still at Multan for nearly 10 years now, he served at Multan as Company commander, then 2IC and then CO, he is now gone but the unit is still at Multan. In armor formations units only move when equipment of same type is being used by both of them. I am in Peshawar & i am seeing the same armor unit guys since 2001. And how easy would it be that you hand AZ tanks to a unit which has been trained to handle AKs, that also just after 3-5 years ? Same is the case for HAT battalions, they hardly move and when they move, the swap their places with another HAT battalion. Similarly for MIB battalions, these are specialized battalions who can not be taken over by just a normal infantry unit, rather a MIB unit will be replaced by a MIB unit and these units spend more time compared to what normal infantry units spend. An assault engineer battalion will not go anywhere, it will go with the armor formation it is linked with, it will be there for the special task it has been raised for. A SP unit will not be posted to Peshawar or Quetta, rather the SP artillery will be there at its place and nor will another unit take over its guns, unit remains the same, equipment remains the same, location would remain the same, its the men which will rotate.
> 
> So, PA does have specialized units, and some of them have better equipment and these units are charged with specialized tasks in case of war. And similarly for PN, PAF also. F-16s are stationed at Sargodha since 80s, Sqds which got equipped with them are still there, they only moved to Kamra when it was required, Sqds don't move until its completely necessary. Taking example of 5 Sqd, which left its Mirages, got the new Blk 52s and due to necessity had to move to Jacobabad. 9th & 11th Sqds with F-16s since the 1980s. 14th Sqd got them and then returned due to some specific reasons. The Sqds at Peshawar had A-5s since 80s and now Brand new JF-17s. So, even in PAF Sqds don't move, equipment does only when new arrives or in exceptional cases like 14 Sqd had to loose its. Its not done on routine by passing of 3-5 years.



T80s are outstanding tanks. I remember visiting one of the units in Multan a few years back. I was impressed by the cabin layout and the amount of technology it had in it. I do Hope we can procure AKs more swiftly. For some reason, Al Zarrars seems to not be able to make the cut. When India gets the T-90s in full numbers, Al Zarrars won't make it. Not to mention the Western Anti-Tank weapons their corps are fielding.

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## Fieldmarshal

TaimiKhan said:


> I don't believe you are right in every case here. All units are not rotated like normal infantry units do after every 3 years during peace time. A cousin of mine whose unit is an armored unit equipped with T-80UDs is still at Multan for nearly 10 years now, he served at Multan as Company commander, then 2IC and then CO, he is now gone but the unit is still at Multan. In armor formations units only move when equipment of same type is being used by both of them. I am in Peshawar & i am seeing the same armor unit guys since 2001. And how easy would it be that you hand AZ tanks to a unit which has been trained to handle AKs, that also just after 3-5 years ? Same is the case for HAT battalions, they hardly move and when they move, the swap their places with another HAT battalion. Similarly for MIB battalions, these are specialized battalions who can not be taken over by just a normal infantry unit, rather a MIB unit will be replaced by a MIB unit and these units spend more time compared to what normal infantry units spend. An assault engineer battalion will not go anywhere, it will go with the armor formation it is linked with, it will be there for the special task it has been raised for. A SP unit will not be posted to Peshawar or Quetta, rather the SP artillery will be there at its place and nor will another unit take over its guns, unit remains the same, equipment remains the same, location would remain the same, its the men which will rotate.
> 
> So, PA does have specialized units, and some of them have better equipment and these units are charged with specialized tasks in case of war. And similarly for PN, PAF also. F-16s are stationed at Sargodha since 80s, Sqds which got equipped with them are still there, they only moved to Kamra when it was required, Sqds don't move until its completely necessary. Taking example of 5 Sqd, which left its Mirages, got the new Blk 52s and due to necessity had to move to Jacobabad. 9th & 11th Sqds with F-16s since the 1980s. 14th Sqd got them and then returned due to some specific reasons. The Sqds at Peshawar had A-5s since 80s and now Brand new JF-17s. So, even in PAF Sqds don't move, equipment does only when new arrives or in exceptional cases like 14 Sqd had to loose its. Its not done on routine by passing of 3-5 years.




Taimi Khan while i was away just to make sure (as it u who is disagreeing with me) i called up some one in the armoured corps and had all the things that we are discussing double checked. and this is what i found out:

- all battalions in PA (except armoured Corps. battalions) are rotated/transferred from a formation after a period of 10-12 years. without any exception.
- all armoured Corps battalions are rotated/transferred from a formation after 7-9 years of time. without exception.

-when a unit across PA is rotated out of a formation. it does not take the equipment/armament with it. the equipment stays at its place and would be taken over by the battalion replacing it. similarly the unit rotated out will take charge of the equipment/armaments of the unit its replacing.

-the armament/equipment belongs to the formation and will stay at its place for the duration of the life of the equipment/armament.

-formations never leave their area of responsibility in peace time but only for exercises some times ( as most exercises are carried out in their area of operation).

-battalions might be operating Al-khalid in one formation and al zarrar in the other or vise versa. (like i had said in my earlier post). their are no elite units but only crack/spearhead Corps. /Div./Brigades. All battalions in PA are equal and to keep this equality this rotation policy is followed.

-armour battalions that that are operating eg al khalid will have no problem if rotated to a formation lets say operating t-80 or al zarrar, as they had operated them earlier.

- but if a battalion which eg was on al zarrar and has been transferred to a formation where it is required to operate t-80ud. will be trained for the purpose and the procedure for this is that the OC will right to GHQ with request for the provision of the requisite training. This training will initially be provided at the armour school (around 4 months) and later at the battalion, after the crews have basic-intermidate level skills/knowledge. 

-*this is the same across PA without any exception*.

- My father is from the Corps of Eng. his unit is 2 Engineer Battalion. he did several stints in it.in the 65 when he was a LT/a very young Capt. it served in the role of Combat Eng. in chumb. in the 70s when he was a Maj. in 2EB he was building the KKH. later on in the 80s when he was promoted to a LT.Col. he took command of 2EB in ormara where they were building a jetty for the navy. after that was finished he under his command moved the unit to kharia in 6 armour div. where again it would be playing the role of combat engineers in a armoured brigade and for the first time had bridges mounted on the chassis of tanks.
the point of all of the above is to explain that their is no constant in the army and all equipment is assigned according to ur deployment.

- to explain it further 1 armour Div. is considered to the spear head of PA and is suppose to play a major role in any conflict, so naturally it would get the best equipment. no just the armour battalion but all battalions in the Div. only consider a battalion that is in the formation that is part of PA armour reserve. it will not get the best equipment available (as that is not enough to go around).

i hope thats makes it very clear (if u read it with a clear objective mind : ) ), clear as day light.

ps ; sorry for any mistakes as i am too tired to edit it as its very late at night. 

happy reading

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## TaimiKhan

@Fieldmarshal Taimi Khan while i was away just to make sure (as it u who is disagreeing with me) i called up some one in the armoured corps and had all the things that we are discussing double checked. and this is what i found out:

- all battalions in PA (except armoured Corps. battalions) are rotated/transferred from a formation after a period of 10-12 years. without any exception.

*Infantry & some artillery/engineers/armor battalions get posted after every three years, in operational areas like KPK/FATA after 2 years, siachen 1 or 1 1/2 years, while the specialized battalions either stay for a very long time or hardly move. This is what i said and your post kind of says that too.*

- all armoured Corps battalions are rotated/transferred from a formation after 7-9 years of time. without exception.

Don't think the 7-9 year policy holds true in every case, as said i am seeing same armor unit guys since 2001 in Peshawar and its 2013 now, similarly the example of my cousin i quoted, his unit is at Multan since the day they got T-80UDs and today is 2013. I believe his was the first unit or 2nd one which got the T-80UDs. 

-when a unit across PA is rotated out of a formation. it does not take the equipment/armament with it. the equipment stays at its place and would be taken over by the battalion replacing it. similarly the unit rotated out will take charge of the equipment/armaments of the unit its replacing.

It holds true all around the world, equipment remains there, i never contested that. Only in exceptional cases equipment moves with the formation.

-the armament/equipment belongs to the formation and will stay at its place for the duration of the life of the equipment/armament.

True, provided the doctrine doesn't changes.

-formations never leave their area of responsibility in peace time but only for exercises some times ( as most exercises are carried out in their area of operation).

By formations if you mean Divisions / Brigades / Corps, that is true, in exceptional cases formations move, like whole division / Brigade moving into tribal areas for operations & in case of war. 

-battalions might be operating Al-khalid in one formation and al zarrar in the other or vise versa. (like i had said in my earlier post). their are no elite units but only crack/spearhead Corps. /Div./Brigades. All battalions in PA are equal and to keep this equality this rotation policy is followed.

I think, in our discussion, crack/spearhead formation be it a unit / brigade / division does means elite, since they have the best equipment available for the special task they are made for. Elite in our discussion doesn&#8217;t means they are given better food or better residential facilities, rather elite in our case means a unit which is holding better equipment for specific role. All battalions in PA are not equal, many battalions are equal as their role is same, some battalions are different due to the equipment they use for the specific role they are assigned in the warfare doctrine. Is a normal infantry unit & MIB unit same, don&#8217;t think so. Is a LAT & HAT battalion equal, don&#8217;t think so. Is an armor unit using Type-55s / Type-85s & the ones using AK / T-80UDs same, don&#8217;t think so. Rotation policy is not equal, its equal for some and for some due to the specific reasons of warfare its not.

-armour battalions that that are operating eg al khalid will have no problem if rotated to a formation lets say operating t-80 or al zarrar, as they had operated them earlier.

I don&#8217;t see why you are making it so easy, since all are different machines; engines may be similar or from same origin, but still other equipment and a tank&#8217;s performance to each other is different. It&#8217;s not that easy to keep changing tanks between units after such a short time period, especially since we don&#8217;t train our tank formations that much due to some factors. And we are using other origin tanks also, my cousins unit used to operate Chinese tanks and then shifted to T-80UDs, which was a major change. 

- but if a battalion which eg was on al zarrar and has been transferred to a formation where it is required to operate t-80ud. will be trained for the purpose and the procedure for this is that the OC will right to GHQ with request for the provision of the requisite training. This training will initially be provided at the armour school (around 4 months) and later at the battalion, after the crews have basic-intermidate level skills/knowledge. 

-*this is the same across PA without any exception*.

Definitely training has to happen. No question about it. When the AMR rifles were introduced, even for that training had to be imparted to the troops, here we are talking about big tanks. 


- My father is from the Corps of Eng. his unit is 2 Engineer Battalion. he did several stints in it.in the 65 when he was a LT/a very young Capt. it served in the role of Combat Eng. in chumb. in the 70s when he was a Maj. in 2EB he was building the KKH. later on in the 80s when he was promoted to a LT.Col. he took command of 2EB in ormara where they were building a jetty for the navy. after that was finished he under his command moved the unit to kharia in 6 armour div. where again it would be playing the role of combat engineers in a armoured brigade and for the first time had bridges mounted on the chassis of tanks.
the point of all of the above is to explain that their is no constant in the army and all equipment is assigned according to ur deployment.

Agreed, engineering units move, but assault engineering battalions stay mostly for a longer period of time as their role is specific to stay with armored formations. 

- to explain it further 1 armour Div. is considered to the spear head of PA and is suppose to play a major role in any conflict, so naturally it would get the best equipment. no just the armour battalion but all battalions in the Div. only consider a battalion that is in the formation that is part of PA armour reserve. it will not get the best equipment available (as that is not enough to go around).

I said the same thing, we have some special / elite / crack / spearhead formations which are better equipped for specific role. Of the 9 Corps, two are elite / crack / special Corps which have been better equipped for offensive role. 

i hope thats makes it very clear (if u read it with a clear objective mind : ) ), clear as day light.

I am already clear in my mind as I said the same thing which you have mentioned, there is some hard and fast rule for normal infantry units, some artillery units and for some armor formations which use the same equipment, but then there are special rules for the HAT, MIB & armor formations which are raised for some specific role and that their transferring is not done after just 3 years. 

ps ; sorry for any mistakes as i am too tired to edit it as its very late at night. 

happy reading

Thanks for the read, much obliged.

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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> I said the same thing, we have some special / elite / crack / spearhead formations which are better equipped for specific role. Of the 9 Corps, two are elite / crack / special Corps which have been better equipped for offensive role.



I and II corps?


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## farhan_9909

New projects taken up by NUST related to AL khalid or the PA armour



*Study of suspension system of trac
ked A
vehicles and design analysis of torsion bar of
main battle tank Alkhalid

*Fire Power and Stability Control
of a Tank
*Semi Active Suspension System
*To analyze the
performance and stability
of armoured vehicle
launched bridge
*Autofrettage Analysis of
gun barrel of tan

*High Mobility Vehicle
*Design & Fabrication of a Steered 4
-
wheel amphibious vehicle 
*Study of Armoured Vehicle Launching Bridge
(AVLB) and
Analysis of 5
-*
m Launching Arm (JIB)

*ndigenous development of Aluminium alloy
7075
*

for more go through this link

nust.edu.pk/INSTITUTIONS/Colleges/CEME/Departments/Mechanical Engineering/Documents/ListofUGProjects-DME.pdf

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## hassan346




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## Yzd Khalifa

I love everything about Al-Khalid from A-Z. I wish KSA buys them it will boot our RSLF and helps Pakistan too.

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## BLACKEAGLE

How much does it cost?

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## Kompromat

Yzd Khalifa said:


> I love everything about Al-Khalid from A-Z. I wish KSA buys them it will boot our RSLF and helps Pakistan too.



KSA has been testing AK for sometime but no deal has materialized. Its been built for,desert warfare. I believe RSLF or SNAG were looking for T-90S. However, RSLF has a much better option in Altay, for a JV.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

BLACKEAGLE said:


> How much does it cost?



Bangladesh bought the inferior mbt-2000 for 3.7 million each... in a deal work 162 million dollars for 44 tanks.... AK uses european and Pakistani systems so its cost would much be higher...

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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bangladesh bought the inferior mbt-2000 for 3.7 million each... in a deal work 162 million dollars for 44 tanks.... AK uses european and Pakistani systems so its cost would much be higher...



So if it costs around $4 million a unit (considering that we're the manufactures) that would place 1000 MBTs at $4billion - Where the heck are we going to get such money from ?  

And wouldn't it be more prudent to let the Army lag behind for a few years & concentrate our resources on the PAF & the PN more !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> So if it costs around $4 million a unit (considering that we're the manufactures) that would place 1000 MBTs at $4billion - Where the heck are we going to get such money from ?
> 
> And wouldn't it be more prudent to let the Army lag behind for a few years & concentrate our resources on the PAF & the PN more !



The 4 million (for the chinese version) also includes profits doesnt it ? we manufacture the whole tank and are not buyers... tht cuts the cost down significantly...also we dont have 1000 AKs.. more like 500-700..and its in active service since quite a few years.... heck we are getting the new AK-Is now..

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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The 4 million (for the chinese version) also includes profits doesnt it ? we manufacture the whole tank and are not buyers... tht cuts the cost down significantly...also we dont have 1000 AKs.. more like 500-700..and its in active service since quite a few years.... heck we are getting the new AK-Is now..



I know yaar but thats what I'm saying - Maybe the Force's Expenditure Mix should be realigned a bit to give more resources to the PN & the PAF ! 

Achaaa how good do you think the Al-Zarrar is compared to the AKs, the T-80s, the T-72 Ajeya's & the Indian T-90 - Where does it stand with respect to these tanks ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> I know yaar but thats what I'm saying - Maybe the Force's Expenditure Mix should be realigned a bit to give more resources to the PN & the PAF !
> 
> Achaaa how good do you think the Al-Zarrar is compared to the AKs, the T-80s, the T-72 Ajeya's & the Indian T-90 - Where does it stand with respect to these tanks ?




Dude im not an armour expert... talk to me about arty... although from what ive heard its better than the t-72 ajeya... and inferior to AK ... while at the same time it uses several t-80ud systems... western fcs,indigenous gun,western thermal sights etc..

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## Yzd Khalifa

Aeronaut said:


> KSA has been testing AK for sometime but no deal has materialized. Its been built for,desert warfare. I believe RSLF or SNAG were looking for T-90S. However, RSLF has a much better option in Altay, for a JV.



True, the SNG is considering it as an option. I'm confident they will get it slowly but surly. My Uni is close to the SNG College and I saw 3 AKs once ,I think they got those for testing or something like that.



Armstrong said:


> I know yaar but thats what I'm saying - Maybe the Force's Expenditure Mix should be realigned a bit to give more resources to the PN & the PAF !
> 
> Achaaa how good do you think the Al-Zarrar is compared to the AKs, the T-80s, the T-72 Ajeya's & the Indian T-90 - Where does it stand with respect to these tanks ?


You will have to give Pakistan sometime. Now you guys are doing a great job for the Turks and the UAE. I'm very proud of the military industry of Pakistan xD

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## Tacticool

Why not to integrate a remote weapons station on AK-1, 2. In urban warfare its need is high. Syria is an example.

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## alimobin memon

This is the Second time I am mentioning that in army recruitment centre bill board near Shahrah e faisal has some new Alkhalid tank design is it AK 2 ? Because it has a Wider Turrent

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## Jango

alimobin memon said:


> This is the Second time I am mentioning that in army recruitment centre bill board near Shahrah e faisal has some new Alkhalid tank design is it AK 2 ? Because it has a Wider Turrent



Can you take a picture?


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## alimobin memon

nuclearpak said:


> Can you take a picture?



Sure tuesday i will pass by I will take the picture However I must quote that it was "3d Design" not real model but it was looking like made on AK chassis but different Turret


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## Munir

alimobin memon said:


> This is the Second time I am mentioning that in army recruitment centre bill board near Shahrah e faisal has some new Alkhalid tank design is it AK 2 ? Because it has a Wider Turrent



I think the turret is the only major improvement compared to other modern design which all have huge flat turret. It protects the crew from attacks from above. It has lower RCS. It can be fitted with better armor. I think there is input from Turkish tank but not sure...

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## farhan_9909

Munir said:


> I think the turret is the only major improvement compared to other modern design which all have huge flat turret. It protects the crew from attacks from above. It has lower RCS. It can be fitted with better armor. I think there is input from Turkish tank but not sure...



Really true?

can someone post the picture of that al khalid or the new al khalid?


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## alimobin memon

Munir said:


> I think the turret is the only major improvement compared to other modern design which all have huge flat turret. It protects the crew from attacks from above. It has lower RCS. It can be fitted with better armor. I think there is input from Turkish tank but not sure...



Its exactly same as this turret !


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## Manticore

> "Novi Srpski Tenk Vihor - II" (New Serbian Tank Vihor -II).
> The Vihor was a further development of the T-72 based M-84A MBT that was halted after the breakup of Yugoslavia. There are reports that development continued in Croatia for a while.













> Vladimir Ivanovic) work on system integration for Al-Khalid and he done some work on China tank (I guess Type 96). He is former Yugoslav and later Serbian tank legend. He is not only top class tank expert (one of best in world for T series tanks) but very good tanker. I saw his "work" in M-84 tank.

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## Manticore

Pakistan "self-development" of Khalid main battle tanks, it has appeared two kinds of remote machine gun, the first one is the optical lens Russia type periscope sighting system, presumably imported from Ukraine. As we all know, Ukraine and China and Pakistan on the development of relations in the tank is very close, I had previously posted on the forum had one with Ukrainian words "Storm II Tank" picture, this photo was taken in Pakistan, I think it might be The famous 85-3 tanks in Pakistan and Ukraine T-84 tanks when the shooting competition, time is about 1994 years ago. Therefore, early adopters Khalid remote machine guns, most likely is the direct introduction of Ukrainian T-84 tanks, machine gun system.





Turret above with Ukrainian words "new tank storm &#8545;"



Later Khalid tanks another remote machine gun system, obviously CCD camera using a TV sighting system is estimated to be developed by China. Because in recent years on public display in the country of Pakistan Khalid tanks, are of this CCD optical remote machine guns.





È«½ðÊôÍâ¿Ç¡ª¡ªÌ¹¿ËÒ£¿Ø¸ßÉä»úÇ¹ - ¿ÆÂÞÁÎ·òµÄÈÕÖ¾ - ÍøÒ×²©¿Í

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## Desert Fox

alimobin memon said:


> Sure tuesday i will pass by I will take the picture However I must quote that it was "3d Design" not real model but it was looking like made on AK chassis but different Turret



So where's the picture you promised us?


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## alimobin memon

Desert Fox said:


> So where's the picture you promised us?



I am not getting a chance ... But I am know where it is ..


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## Desert Fox

alimobin memon said:


> I am not getting a chance ... But I am know where it is ..



You got me all excited and no picture????


If you know where it is and if its still there, why not snap a quick picture?

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## Umair Nawaz

ANTIBODY said:


> Pakistan "self-development" of Khalid main battle tanks, it has appeared two kinds of remote machine gun, the first one is the optical lens Russia type periscope sighting system, presumably imported from Ukraine. As we all know, Ukraine and China and Pakistan on the development of relations in the tank is very close, I had previously posted on the forum had one with Ukrainian words "Storm II Tank" picture, this photo was taken in Pakistan, I think it might be The famous 85-3 tanks in Pakistan and Ukraine T-84 tanks when the shooting competition, time is about 1994 years ago. Therefore, early adopters Khalid remote machine guns, most likely is the direct introduction of Ukrainian T-84 tanks, machine gun system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turret above with Ukrainian words "new tank storm &#8545;"
> 
> 
> 
> Later Khalid tanks another remote machine gun system, obviously CCD camera using a TV sighting system is estimated to be developed by China. Because in recent years on public display in the country of Pakistan Khalid tanks, are of this CCD optical remote machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> È«½ðÊôÍâ¿Ç¡ª¡ªÌ¹¿ËÒ£¿Ø¸ßÉä»úÇ¹ - ¿ÆÂÞÁÎ·òµÄÈÕÖ¾ - ÍøÒ×²©¿Í



Turret above with Ukrainian words "new tank storm &#8545;" picture is not showing.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Will the new al khalid have carousel type autoloader?


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## alimobin memon

Desert Fox said:


> You got me all excited and no picture????
> 
> 
> If you know where it is and if its still there, why not snap a quick picture?




It comes on the way near Mehran hotel we have army selection centre


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## DESERT FIGHTER

alimobin memon said:


> It comes on the way near Mehran hotel we have army selection centre



Get the damn pic buddy!

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## arushbhai

Just an inside news that you guys might not like to hear. Al-Khalid tanks have miserably failed in the recent war in terror. They faced numerous problems as well as glitches. My friend who is a former captain told me that 
- the whole software system would shut down if the tank comes under enemy attack. The tank was just not ready to absorb the shock. 
- The engine would heat up so much that the crew hated being inside for more than few hours. 
- Very bad at taking enemy rounds. 
But again, he told me that the military is aware of the failures and is working hard to bring modifications.


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## Zarvan

arushbhai said:


> Just an inside news that you guys might not like to hear. Al-Khalid tanks have miserably failed in the recent war in terror. They faced numerous problems as well as glitches. My friend who is a former captain told me that
> - the whole software system would shut down if the tank comes under enemy attack. The tank was just not ready to absorb the shock.
> - The engine would heat up so much that the crew hated being inside for more than few hours.
> - Very bad at taking enemy rounds.
> But again, he told me that the military is aware of the failures and is working hard to bring modifications.



If we can't get it modified than we really need to get some new better Tanks and need them fast Sir even if we have to take financial help from Muslim countries their is no other way if tank is not able to handle Taliban Rockets than How it is supposed to handle enemy Tanks like T-90 @ANTIBODY and others


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## alimobin memon

Zarvan said:


> If we can't get it modified than we really need to get some new better Tanks and need them fast Sir even if we have to take financial help from Muslim countries their is no other way if tank is not able to handle Taliban Rockets than How it is supposed to handle enemy Tanks like T-90 @ANTIBODY and others



Alkhalid has Ukrainian engine which is proven engine... Furthermore I dont Agree Rather I find ur post biased. Because Al Khalid was inducted back in 2001's in small numbers and war on terror with Pak's full offense started back in 2006-7, 2005 was not much of big offense. So you mean to say from 2001 to 5 They just being produced without being tested. Pakistan in 88 tested Abrams and our officials were smart enough to find that Abrams of 88 era weren't good in terrains like south asian, So ofcourse when the Al khalid was produced they have noted those things too. Al khalid has mostly main parts of Ukrainian origin no matter even if the body is Chinese design. I have friends too and I know how alkhalid is... Alkhalid is not used in war on terror. Al zarrar and old Chinese Types are used Not a single Alkhalid has yet had any direct engagement !

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## Fieldmarshal

arushbhai said:


> Just an inside news that you guys might not like to hear. Al-Khalid tanks have miserably failed in the recent war in terror. They faced numerous problems as well as glitches. My friend who is a former captain told me that
> - the whole software system would shut down if the tank comes under enemy attack. The tank was just not ready to absorb the shock.
> - The engine would heat up so much that the crew hated being inside for more than few hours.
> - Very bad at taking enemy rounds.
> But again, he told me that the military is aware of the failures and is working hard to bring modifications.



that is absolute and total bs!
it does happen with disgracers. ur friend who couldent make the cut is simply making excuses for his failure to make it in PA.

both al Khalid and Al zarrar have proved them selves outstandingly in wot.
end of discussion


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## Munir

Funny... They have not taken any Al-Khalid from the Indian front to Afghanistan. And as far as I know is that if you can drive very fast in hot sandy dunes for hours with very high temperatures then the western front is a lot easier.

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## Jango

We don't use Al Khalid in the Western front AFAIK, and if anything of the sort would have been going, this forum would have been the first place where that would have been discussed!

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## Beerbal

arushbhai said:


> Just an inside news that you guys might not like to hear. *Al-Khalid* tanks have *miserably failed* in the recent war in terror. They faced *numerous problems* as well as* glitches*. My friend who is a former captain told me that
> - the whole *software system* would *shut down* if the tank comes under enemy attack. The tank was just not ready to absorb the shock.
> - The *engine* would *heat up *so much that the crew hated being inside for more than few hours.
> - Very bad at taking enemy rounds.
> But again, he told me that the military is aware of the failures and is working hard to bring modifications.






Don't disclose such things on Public forum.. The failures must be kept secret...


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## farhan_9909

Al zarar are deployed war on terror operation active places such as north waziristan or back in the swat.

Both t-80ud and al khalid are on our eastern border

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## Last Hope

@arushbhai has history of such claims and I believe him to be a false-flagger. None of the points in the post are true.

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## raazh

Only 100mm caliber tanks are used in WOT. Reason being that Pakistan has so many 100mm rounds in storage k agar 10 saal bhi martay rahain na khali deewar par tu phir bhe khatam nahen honay ..


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## Tacticool

After the events of syrian civil war, where home made rpg warheads destroyed t-72s. How can we compare our tanks against ATGMs ?
Do age has to do anything with the strength of armour of a tank? After all it is steel and it remains steel even after 40 years...


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## Keshav Murali

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> After the events of syrian civil war, where home made rpg warheads destroyed t-72s. How can we compare our tanks against ATGMs ?
> Do age has to do anything with the strength of armour of a tank? After all it is steel and it remains steel even after 40 years...



Armour of tanks is not steel these days. It is layer after layer of special extra light but dense composite ceramics, titanium and related metals which are twice as effective as steel but only half as heavy encased in special triple hardness steel. 

USUALLY.


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## bleedingboi

I'm a big fan of this tank. Composite armors are the new generation of all tank sheet armors.

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## alimobin memon

There is only One Pic in the thread's First page in which there is an APS system. But It is at the place where Era Bricks are Fitted and with Era equipped on front of turret The APS system is removed ? Does that mean APS is used in A K on place of ERA ?


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## amanwas

Very impressive thread about Al Khalid Tank. We are proud of this master piece of technology.

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## Salman Ahmad

Beerbal said:


> Don't disclose such things on Public forum.. The failures must be kept secret...



no we don't need to keep secret's the large numbers of Al-Khalid in Pakistan army speaks the truth itself that they are most reliable and top notch for us we know how is trying to degreed Al-Khalid. 

More over Pakistan armed forces don't let anything get inside of inventory until it meets their full standards not like Indi armed forces like to get Arjun tank they lower their standards like LCA your air force did the same

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## k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$

Salman Ahmad said:


> no we don't need to keep secret's the large numbers of Al-Khalid in Pakistan army speaks the truth itself that they are most reliable and top notch for us we know how is trying to degreed Al-Khalid.
> 
> More over Pakistan armed forces don't let anything get inside of inventory until it meets their full standards not like Indi armed forces like to get Arjun tank they lower their standards like LCA your air force did the same



Ye ziyada kr dy ap ney 

Perfection ratio in Al-Khalid Tanks is very impressive. That is why Gulf+African countries do purchase.

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## Gentelman

k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$ said:


> Ye ziyada kr dy ap ney
> 
> Perfection ratio in Al-Khalid Tanks is very impressive. That is why Gulf+African countries do purchase.



don't jump in a thread like that
Gulf countries can affort a western tank like A1-Abraham soo they are buying them i.e KSA & Egypt and african countries can hardly afford AK soo they usually slect cheaper and degraded MBT-2000/3000
AK-1 is most heavily armed MBT in world with.composites armor and can be compared to western tanks

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## alimobin memon

u can see in the pic there is APS system. but it is on the main gun side of the turret, Does that mean ERA cant be equipped if aps is equipped ?

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## Keshav Murali

alimobin memon said:


> u can see in the pic there is APS system. but it is on the main gun side of the turret, Does that mean ERA cant be equipped if aps is equipped ?



This is supposedly a prototype with APS. There is yet to be a picture where we see APS on PA AK's. 

If a tank uses Shtora-1, the area loses its ERA protection. But Varta was made by the Ukrainians modified specifically to ensure that there is no loss of ERA coverage. I don't know more. I'll get back to you.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Keshav Murali said:


> This is supposedly a prototype with APS. There is yet to be a picture where we see APS on PA AK's.
> 
> If a tank uses Shtora-1, the area loses its ERA protection. But Varta was made by the Ukrainians modified specifically to ensure that there is no loss of ERA coverage. I don't know more. I'll get back to you.










Best pic of AK (Prototype):

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## TaimiKhan

Keshav Murali said:


> This is supposedly a prototype with APS. There is yet to be a picture where we see APS on PA AK's.
> 
> If a tank uses Shtora-1, the area loses its ERA protection. But Varta was made by the Ukrainians modified specifically to ensure that there is no loss of ERA coverage. I don't know more. I'll get back to you.



Does this qualifies as an operational tank ?? Which by the way it is.

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## Keshav Murali

TaimiKhan said:


> Does this qualifies as an operational tank ?? Which by the way it is.



Not necessarily sir. We haven't seen Varta on an Al-Khalid in any trials, parades and the like. 

I am holding my breath, waiting for videos of AK when they next appear, rest assured.


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## TaimiKhan

Keshav Murali said:


> Not necessarily sir. We haven't seen Varta on an Al-Khalid in any trials, parades and the like.
> 
> I am holding my breath, waiting for videos of AK when they next appear, rest assured.



You won't see many of the systems being used by Pak Def forces in public. PAF has H2 & H4 programs operational on its aircraft, but we have not seen a single picture of them. Recently a Chinese origin satellite guided bomb has become operational, but you won't see pictures of that also. So many other examples. 

If you don't see them in parades or during exercise pictures doesn't means they are no there.

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## Bamboo Castle

ANTIBODY said:


> *
> 
> Apr 18, 2011
> Pakistan Produces Indigenous 125 Millimetre Tank Gun For Al-Khalid Tank *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al Khalid MBT-2000 / *Type 2000 Main Battle Tank*
> 
> The Al Khalid tank is based on the Chinese Norinco Type-90-II Main Battle Tank (MBT). This a Pakistani built tank, all of it except its engine is made in Pakistan. The engine is is a Ukrainian 6TDF diesel developing 1,200 hp. engine the same used in T-80/84 tanks. Besides a low silhouette, it is considerably smaller as compared to other modern tanks, with a maximum weight of 46 tons. The Al-Khalid MBT has a crew of three. It had a combat range of 400Km and is fitted with thermal night-vision devices. It has a maximum speed of 65-70Km/hr with an acceleration of 0-32Km/hr in 10 seconds. It's armor is made of composite material as well as explosive reactive armor.
> 
> The Al Khalid is fitted with a smooth bore gun of 125mm which can also fire missiles. Al-Khalid's main gun is 125mm smooth bore with autoloader. The unique feature of Al-Khalid is that it is equipped with auto tracker system. It also has hunter killer capability which can track and engage more than one targets while on the move. The tank can operate fully even during night with thermal imagery systems. Tank's maximum speed is upto 70km per hour.
> 
> Pakistan's development of the MBT-2000 Al Khalid began in 1988, and in January 1990 an agreement was reached with China to jointly design, develop and manufacture system. The design is an upgrade from the original T902M and work had been going on at China's NORINCO for some years. Initial prototypes were produced in China and fielded for trials in August 1991. Pakistan's manufacturing plant at Taxila was completed in 1992. Since then development efforts focused on improving the design for Pakistan's terrain and high temperatures. The engine of the T90 2M is replaced by the Ukrainian 6TD 1200hp engine, and a newly developed thermal viewer system has been added to improve nocturnal fighting capability. US$20 million were reportedly spent on the indigenous development of the Al-Khalid tanks over a period of eight years.
> 
> Ukraine is a key partner in the production of the Al-Khalid tank which is a joint venture between China, Pakistan and Ukraine. Ukraine is also providing assistance to Pakistan in the Upgrade/Re-Build its T-59 tanks to the Al-Zarar Configuration, which is intended to match the T-80UD tanks. In February 2002 Ukraine announced that the Malyshev plant would provide another 315 engines for Al-Khalid tanks over three years. The contract's estimated value was $125-150 million.
> 
> Ukraine possesses one of the most reliable tank engines in the conditions of hot climate. It is the result of the strategy of tank building development. At one time Ukraine and Russia, as two great tank powers, took two different ways of tank engine development. Ukrainian constructors chose the Diesel direction, while Russian ones the gas turbine, like many other countries. Now, according to the words of the chief designer of Ukraine armored troops, head of the Kharkov machine-building design office lieutenant general Mikhail Borisyuk, when the principal prominent buyers of armored equipment are located in countries with hot climate, the stability of engines with the ambient air temperature higher than 50 degrees has become one of the key factors for tanks reliability. In the extreme conditions of hot climate gas-turbine engines of China and Poland, created on the base of B-1, B-2 engine types, Russian engines, having had serious problems during testing in India, started to receive transient errors. At the same time Ukrainian engines on the tanks T-80UD, provided to Pakistan, showed high reliability.
> 
> Heavy Industries Taxila started production of Al-Khalid in November 2000. The Chinese ground army has not made any purchase orders and will not use the same tank when it does decide to buy a next-generation armored vehicle. As of early 2002 Pakistan had about twenty Al-Khalid tanks in service. It had received its first consignment of 15 Al-Khalid MBTs in July 2001. Pakistan's Army reportedly hoped to produce a total of 300 more tanks by 2005. According to a 2001 report, Pakistan planned to add another 300 indigenous Al-Khalid tanks to its armored corps by 2007. On September 23, 2004, Pakistan received an additional consignment of Al-Khalid MBTs. In 2004 it was reported that the Pakistan army already had in its inventory 90 Al-Khalids fully operational. At that time the HIT was said to be "rolling out 50 Al-Khalids every year and by next year with additional allocations the production will be doubled." Pakistan plans to build a total of 600 Al-Khalid tanks for its armed forces. The production rate in 2004 was estimated by HIT to be 45-60 annually, dependent on budget allocation, and some 220 were in service as of May 2008. Development continues, with modifications in the fire control system and linkage [by the end of 2008 IISS thought that no more than the original batch of 45 tanks were in service].
> 
> During April 8-11, 2002, at DSA-2002 international exhibition of armament, Malaysian military and government officials considered the Al-Khalid tank as the best, and showed their interest in buying it from Pakistan. The UAE showed interest in 2003 in buying Pakistani military hardware including Al-Khalid main battle tank, Mushshak trainers and various other defence items that Pakistan can offer. In June 2003, Pakistan also decided to export Al-Khalid tanks to Bangladesh and to upgrade military-to-military relations with Bangladesh. In March 2006, Jane's Defence Weekly reported that Saudi Arabia was planning to evaluate the Al-Khalid in April 2006. Pakistani defense officials said the Saudi government may be interested in purchasing up to 150 Al-Khalid for $600 million USD.




Never heard of it before...


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## Keshav Murali

Bamboo Castle said:


> Never heard of it before...



Never heard of *what* before, sir?

MBT-2000, Al-Khalid, VT-1A or what else?

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## Tacticool

what are advantages of a welded turrent over a conventional one?


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## Gentelman

Bamboo Castle said:


> Never heard of it before...



Old news
Pakistan started of Manfacture AK 125mm Tank gun locally in gun factory HIT and also DU rounds.
other guns mabfactured there are mron 120-140mm and its ambition is to meet us all artillary and armour need of Pakistan Army


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## Dazzler

Norinco Type-II M APFSDS RHA penetration @ the typical target under the fire range condition---RHA, 220mm thickness , angle of inclination: 60-70, and in this case, the angle is the 68 deg, no much difference with "international standard.. 

NOTE: this is a tungsten round, not a DU round

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## Dazzler

Type-IIM penetation is approximately 650mm @ 2000 meter... considering the sub continent scenario, this is a pretty lethal value!

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## farhan_9909

> *Tungsten Alloy Penetrators in Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank*
> Print Email DETAILS CATEGORY: TUNGSTEN INFORMATION PUBLISHED ON *24 MAY 2013* WRITTEN BY ZLB HITS: 38
> The predecessor of Al-Khalid main battle tank (MBT) is 90-II which is developed in China. Al-Khalid MBT is equipped by composite armor and rolling homogenous armor. The tank can perform night operation which is also equipped by thermal imaging system. The main weapon of Al-Khalid MBT is a 125mm caliber smoothbore gun which carrying 39 ammunitions. The smoothbore gun can launch depleted uranium (DU) ammunition, tungsten alloy penetrators, kinetic energy cartridge and high explosive grenade. Otherwise, there are 12.7mm caliber machine gun and 7.62mm caliber machine gun in the tank.
> *
> In recent years, Pakistan Army is modernizing Al-Khalid MBT. They attempt to modernize the tank to the most advanced tank in the world. Al-Khalid MBT is called as Super Al-Khalid MBT after modernization, which is equipped by integrated battle management system (IBMS) and active protection system. For the new design of structure, the armor of new tank can endure the strike from all of 120~125mm caliber anti-tank shells who are on service at present. Whats more, the fire control is more advanced, and the firing rate of main artillery has been improved by 9 shells per minute. Meanwhile, Super Al-Khalid MBT is also equipped by Sagem the third generation thermography made in France, laser sight, anti-tank missile tracking system and Valta electro-optical countermeasures device made in Ukraine*.



Tungsten Alloy Penetrators in Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank

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## Dr. Strangelove

@farhan_9909 
is super alkhalid 
al khalid 1 ?


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## Dazzler

wasm95 said:


> @farhan_9909
> is super alkhalid
> al khalid 1 ?



Yes it is, all the specifications mentioned match that of AK-1

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## farhan_9909



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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


> Type-IIM penetation is approximately 650mm @ 2000 meter... considering the sub continent scenario, this is a pretty lethal value!



550 mm rather. You have overestimated it by a long way. Doubling the penetration path for 60 degrees gives 90 degree values while 66-68 degrees needs a multiplication by 2.5.

Not much more than the 3VBM13, still not enough for the subcontinent scenario. Arjun has a ~735 mm thick armour cavity on the hull itself perhaps 700 mm protection against KE. NERA is on the way, T-90 has a ~650-700 mm thick armour cavity on the hull with 4S23 or 4S24 modules with combined protection equal to or better than 750 mm. 

Lot to do for the Chinese.

Congratulations on the completed development of the *"Super Al-Khalid"* 

@farhan_9909 @Dazzler, I don't have time to check out Pak armour advances because I rarely visit here, can you send periodic e-mails to 

keshavmurali98@yahoo.co.in

Thanks

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## Dazzler

Keshav Murali said:


> 550 mm rather. You have overestimated it by a long way. Doubling the penetration path for 60 degrees gives 90 degree values while 66-68 degrees needs a multiplication by 2.5.
> 
> Not much more than the 3VBM13, still not enough for the subcontinent scenario. Arjun has a ~735 mm thick armour cavity on the hull itself perhaps 700 mm protection against KE. NERA is on the way, T-90 has a ~650-700 mm thick armour cavity on the hull with 4S23 or 4S24 modules with combined protection equal to or better than 750 mm.
> 
> Lot to do for the Chinese.
> 
> Congratulations on the completed development of the *"Super Al-Khalid"*
> 
> @farhan_9909 @Dazzler, I don't have time to check out Pak armour advances because I rarely visit here, can you send periodic e-mails to
> 
> keshavmurali98@yahoo.co.in
> 
> Thanks



spread so much misinformation that it is taken as a fact. hmmm

3VBM13 has a certified penetration @ 60 deg @ 2000 no more than 250 mm, @ 0 deg, its 500 mm, not to mention it is outdated. With such value, even Al-Zarrar composite armour cant be penetrated maybe Type-59 or 69.

Good luck to IA if they use it still.


Type II basic has 520-550 mm @ 60 deg @ 2000

Type-IIM brochure translates penetration between 620-650 mm (Militarysta @ *** confirmed this value too)


More on Russian rounds and penetration values..

125MM APFSDS ROUNDS

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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


> spread so much misinformation that it is taken as a fact. hmmm
> 
> 3VBM13 has a certified penetration @ 60 deg @ 2000 no more than 250 mm, @ 0 deg, its 500 mm, not to mention it is outdated. With such value, even Al-Zarrar composite armour cant be penetrated maybe Type-59 or 69.
> 
> Good luck to IA if they use it still.
> 
> 
> Type II basic has 520-550 mm @ 60 deg @ 2000
> 
> Type-IIM brochure translates penetration between 620-650 mm (Militarysta @ *** confirmed this value too)
> 
> 
> More on Russian rounds and penetration values..
> 
> 125MM APFSDS ROUNDS





Methos said:


> 220 mm at 66° equals 540.8 mm line-of-sight. 220 mm at 60° equals 440 mm line-of-sight.



Methos is better on ammunition and he has explicitly stated that Type-IIM has a penetration value of *550 mm.* And militarysta agreed.

60 degrees means doubling the value. How can an increase of just 6.4 degrees make such a drastic difference i.e. 220 mm to 650 mm? 550 is more logical anyway.

Militarysta stated that the newer Chinese ammunition, which is not necessarily Type-IIM, might have a penetration in excess of 620 mm. 

People like him were claiming 3BM44M has a penetration in excess of 700 mm. And when more information came along with images, and Fofanov's data, they quietly reverted to 650 mm.

And IA doesn't use 3VBM13. Russia does 

And 500 mm penetration is not something to laugh about, if it connects on the side turret or hull (quite easy to do) any tank goes bust.

Who is spreading misinformation here? You, or me?

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## Dazzler

Keshav Murali said:


> Methos is better on ammunition and he has explicitly stated that Type-IIM has a penetration value of *550 mm.* And militarysta agreed.
> 
> 60 degrees means doubling the value. How can an increase of just 6.4 degrees make such a drastic difference i.e. 220 mm to 650 mm? 550 is more logical anyway.
> 
> Militarysta stated that the newer Chinese ammunition, which is not necessarily Type-IIM, might have a penetration in excess of 620 mm.
> 
> People like him were claiming 3BM44M has a penetration in excess of 700 mm. And when more information came along with images, and Fofanov's data, they quietly reverted to 650 mm.
> 
> And IA doesn't use 3VBM13. Russia does
> 
> And 500 mm penetration is not something to laugh about, if it connects on the side turret or hull (quite easy to do) any tank goes bust.
> 
> Who is spreading misinformation here? You, or me?



IA uses old version of Mango and Israeli CL II series as main APFSDS, i clearly said IF they use 3bm13. 

Janes has given penetration value for Type-IIM as more than 600mm

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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler

as per Janes, this is Type-I and II, not Type-IIM...


NORINCO 125 mm APFSDS-T rounds are separate loading munitions. They are loaded into the breech
surrounded, behind the sabot assembly, by an integral combustible propellant charge in a combustible
case and followed by a semi-combustible propellant case.
On both the 125-I and 125-II, a light alloy sabot assembly consists of a three-segment sabot and the
monobloc tungsten alloy penetrator rod forming the projectile. The penetrator rod and the sabot are
interfaced by a series of mating buttresses and the sabot is encircled by a plastic slipping obturator ring.
The 125-I penetrator rod has a diameter of 28 mm, is 554 mm long (length-to-diameter ratio
approximately 19.8:1) and weighs 4.03 kg. The penetrator rod has a light alloy windshield over the nose
and a light alloy six-finned fin assembly at the rear. It is assumed that the fin assembly contains a tracer
element. The 125-II projectile assembly weighs 7.44 kg, with the penetrator rod being 26 mm in
diameter.
The two-component propellant system is carried over from the design of the RFAS 125 mm
APFSDS-T. Both components are encased in what is described as a flammable nitrocellulose paper tube
impregnated with TNT which is totally consumed on firing. A steel stub case, weighing 3.4 kg and
containing the electrical primer, remains to be ejected after firing. The case is 140 mm long and has a
flange diameter of 171.9 mm.
Muzzle velocity of the 125-I is 1,730 m/s. Armour penetration against vertical armour at 2,000 m is
460 mm and direct fire range is more than 2,100 m. It has been stated that the projectile can penetrate
220 mm of homogeneous armour set at an angle of 61.5Âº at a range of 2,000 m, with `good after effects'.
At a range of 1,000 m dispersion is of the order of 300 Ã&#8212; 300 mm.
Muzzle velocity for the 125-II is 1,740 m/s. Armour penetration at 2,000 m is 600 mm.

Specifications
Weights:
projectile with propellant charge - 23 kg
projectile with sabot, 125-I - 7.37 kg
projectile with sabot, 125-II - 7.44 kg
projectile, 125-I - 4.03 kg
stub case - 3.4 kg
Lengths:
projectile with propellant charge - 672 mm
basic propellant assembly - 407 mm
projectile - 554 mm
Diameter of projectile:
125-I - 28 mm
125-II - 26 mm
Muzzle velocity:
125-I - 1,730 m/s
125-II -1,740 m/s
Operational temperature: -40 to +50ÂºC

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## Tacticool

What are advantages of having a welded turrent over conventional one?


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## Dazzler

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What are advantages of having a welded turrent over conventional one?



Welded turret is approximately 30-50% stronger than cast turret

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## Nishan_101

farhan_9909 said:


>



Have HIT been able to produce:
500 Al-Khalid
700 Al-Khalid-I
and what is the status of production of Al-Khalid-IIs as there are nothing available about it.

Also is HIT looking in to doing JV with Ukraine/Serbia/China for APC wheeled and tracked. Also HMC and POF looking in to produce Guns and rounds of good quality?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Nishan_101 said:


> Have HIT been able to produce:
> 500 Al-Khalid
> 700 Al-Khalid-I
> and what is the status of production of Al-Khalid-IIs as there are nothing available about it.
> 
> Also is HIT looking in to doing JV with Ukraine/Serbia/China for APC wheeled and tracked. Also HMC and POF looking in to produce Guns and rounds of good quality?



number of ak is around 600 and then they were upgraded to ak 1 standard 
pakistan is getting serbian lazar 2 probably with tot


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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


>



Militarysta later stated that the new "round" is misinformation since he agreed with Methos's measurements that the sabot-penetrator ratio or something else didn't check out. Keep throwing old stuff at me.



Militarysta on the 800 mm long round said:


> No this photo is photoshoped, whole think was discus in two topics



He says Type-IIM's maximum penetrator length is 570 mm. That's quite high, penetration could be 600 mm. 

*650 mm* is a dream which will be realized in the future.

Send me those e-mails, please 

So you agree maximum penetration achievable is 600 mm ± 20 mm?

That should conclude this.


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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


> IA uses *old version* of Mango and Israeli CL II series as main APFSDS, i clearly said IF they use 3bm13.
> 
> Janes has given penetration value for Type-IIM as more than 600mm



There are no "old" and "new" versions of 3BM44. There does exist the "Lekalo" which is designated as 3BM44M but is completely different.

Do you mean the improved Ukrainian versions of the 3BM44 as the new ones?






*"Konchar-2"*






*Designation unknown*






*"Rogach" - BM44YL*


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## Dazzler

Keshav Murali said:


> Militarysta later stated that the new "round" is misinformation since he agreed with Methos's measurements that the sabot-penetrator ratio or something else didn't check out. Keep throwing old stuff at me.
> 
> 
> 
> He says Type-IIM's maximum penetrator length is 570 mm. That's quite high, penetration could be 600 mm.
> 
> *650 mm* is a dream which will be realized in the future.
> 
> Send me those e-mails, please
> 
> So you agree maximum penetration achievable is 600 mm ± 20 mm?
> 
> That should conclude this.



he calculated the new round to be somewhere around 800 mm which iwas a mistake since the modified autoloader allows 740-50 mm maximum. 

Type-II maximum penetration is 553, M is between 600-650 mm, even Janes agrees to that. Why its not a dream? Because Poland achieved better penetration for improved Pronit APFSDS with improved metallurgy while keeping the same mass and overall dimensions. Again, it depends on multiple factors. 

And 3BM42 does have at least two versions including the export version aka Mango, with penetration value not more than 520 mm @ 2000 m. the M version hasnt been exported as far as i know.

I have a better idea, this is AK info pool so lets take our discussion to another thread before our posts are removed.

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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


> Type-II maximum penetration is 553, M is between 600-650 mm, even Janes agrees to that. Why its not a dream? Because Poland achieved better penetration for improved Pronit APFSDS with improved metallurgy while keeping the same mass and overall dimensions. Again, it depends on multiple factors.



Ya. I agree, I mean 650 mm certified penetration is a dream for now. 600 is easy. 



Dazzler said:


> And 3BM42 does have at least two versions including the export version aka Mango, with penetration value not more than 520 mm @ 2000 m. the M version hasnt been exported as far as i know.





3BM42 - Mango, value is right.

3BM42M - Lekalo, Research topic - "Svinets-1", it is not even remotely related to 3BM42, sabot is different, construction is different, penetrator is different. No relation except the designation according to Fofanov and Harkonnen. Probably never for export in the next 10-15 years till 3BM48 "Svinets-2" or "Grifel" is ready fully



Dazzler said:


> I have a better idea, this is AK info pool so lets take our discussion to another thread before our posts are removed.



Quote this post on some other thread

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## Dazzler

At 11:02, see Boron carbide cutting in various sizes...... A hint of possible AK, AZ armour 


It must be remembered that HIT makes a variety of Carbides/ armour composition such as Aluminium carbide, Boron carbide and Silicon carbide to name a few.

Boron and tungsten carbide are used in Burlinton Armour composition, also known as Chobham armour.

Documentary: Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) & Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) - Pakistan Army - YouTube


another link for Boron carbide manufacturing in our reactors since 80s...


http://www.e-polymers.org/journal/papers/tyasin_170408.pdf

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## Manticore

nabil










the vs thread is this one > http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/22400-pa-tanks-comparison-contempory-tanks-42.html


top to bottom :125mm ,100mm ,105mm









gspo.ru




Militarysta






pof

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## Manticore

http://www.luch.kiev.ua/english/roket2.htm

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## Keshav Murali

@ANTIBODY

Sir, are you on the forum where militarysta posts?

Nice posts above


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## Manticore

Keshav Murali said:


> @ANTIBODY
> 
> Sir, are you on the forum where militarysta posts?
> 
> Nice posts above



I follow certain members on various fora however Ive been very busy for the past 4-5 months




@Dazzler
/nabil --yar if I change the name to *tank guns and ammunitions*, it would encompass this kind of discussion scattered on various threads -- however would be needing your active involvement there as I am busy for the next 5-6 months

http://www.defence.pk/forums/guns-corner/229716-tank-guns-2.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/120722-anti-tank-missiles-4.html


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## Hyperion

@ANTIBODY, mate, I know that you aren't in the armed forces, but do tell why such infatuation with Tanks? I know that kids when young, have this dream of becoming a "pilot", because of all the presumed glitter and "too-ha" associated with it, however, I've yet to come across a kid who develops a passion for "tanks".... 

So it is a relatively recent development or you always were into armored vehicles and stuff?


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## Manticore

Hyperion said:


> @ANTIBODY, mate, I know that you aren't in the armed forces, but do tell why such infatuation with Tanks? I know that kids when young, have this dream of becoming a "pilot", because of all the presumed glitter and "too-ha" associated with it, however, I've yet to come across a kid who develops a passion for "tanks"....
> 
> So it is a relatively recent development or you always were into armored vehicles and stuff?



I initially made the jf-17 thread purely out of necessity and lack of concise to the point information on jf-17 on the web--- after that members encouraged/asked me to make info pools on ak,agosta,awacs/special mission aircrafts,frigates/destroyers

I had relatives in PIA/PAF and they used to gift me j anes all the worlds aircrafts books , afm etc when I was at school however my first love was medicine

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## Manticore

VT-1A according to gspo.ru











COMBINATION OF INERT AND ENERGETIC MATERIALS IN 
REACTIVE ARMOR AGAINST SHAPED CHARGE JETS
A. Holzwarth, K. Weimann
http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/symp_19/TB611523.pdf

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## Keshav Murali

@ANTIBODY sir, any idea what the triangle-like structure on the front turret is for? Because I have seen that Israeli NERA attachments resembling those, only, they were not hollow.


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## RAMPAGE

Hyperion said:


> @ANTIBODY, mate, I know that you aren't in the armed forces, but do tell why such infatuation with Tanks? I know that kids when young, have this dream of becoming a "pilot", because of all the presumed glitter and "too-ha" associated with it, however, I've yet to come across a kid who develops a passion for "tanks"....
> 
> So it is a relatively recent development or you always were into armored vehicles and stuff?


o bhai kabhi battlefield , cod , c&c kheli hai ????

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## Manticore

CHINA VT-1A TANK COMPARABLE TO THE RUSSIAN-MADE T-80

Reort: According to the United States, "Strategy Page" website reported on August 3, Moroccan imports from China had 150 VT1A main battle tanks, such tanks may be equipped with the 99 Chinese army tanks export models. However, some analysts believe that VT1A model is jointly developed by China and Pakistan, "Khalid" tanks the latest improved. 
Performance comparable to the Russian-made T-80 
And the Chinese army used tanks, compared with 99, VT1A tank to reduce the total weight of 14%. 49 tons total weight of the tank, equipped with self-loading machine, the crew three main weapons are a 125 mm caliber smoothbore gun. In addition, the turret is also equipped with a 7.62 mm machine gun and a parallel 12.7 mm caliber antiaircraft machine guns. 
In power terms, VT1A tank equipped with a cooling power of 1200 hp engine, speed 70 km / h and maximum range is 450 km. VT1A tank high level of protection, and are equipped with reactive armor composite. However, in order to control costs, VT1A tank is not installed some 99 tanks equipped with advanced electronic equipment. 
Speculation, the Chinese-style and VT1A 90/98/99 tanks are all "T-72 tanks integrated improved", but a lot of these Chinese-made tank improvements, in general equivalent to the current Russian military equipment T-80UM2 main battle tanks. "Strategy Page" in the article view, a T-72 tanks designed for the Jichu battlefield manifested though Zai Yi Ban, Dan Rengjiu yes Kekao of choice, the problem Zhu Yao Che by less experienced team members caused. Chinese soldiers in armored forces after high intensity training, fully skilled to operate any type of tank. 
China has long been a foreign approved tank 
Western and Russian media "VT1A tanks export Morocco's" speculation, mainly from a network image. The pictures of tanks from the trailer loading, and covered with camouflage cloth, very difficult to distinguish specific models. However, regardless of whether the news is true, rugged and durable tank car has long been China's foreign user acceptance. And VT1A deep origin of "Khalid" tanks, and also has a Chinese origin, "Al Zalar" tank on the military in Pakistan has a good reputation. 
In 2009, the action to suppress the Taliban in Pakistan, the Pakistani military has dispatched a group of "&#38463;&#23572;&#25166;&#25289;&#23572;" tanks, in which a tank in 15 minutes, suffered a 6 suicide attacks, a total of six truck bombs and three motorcycles in the tank side of suicide bombings. Although the tanks eventually lose their capabilities, but good turret, ammunition is not detonation, the successful escape vehicle group members, which shows the excellent protective performance. And "Khalid" tanks are frequently coming out of Pakistan military exercises, many times to demonstrate its good maneuverability and firepower. 
As a new export model, VT1A main battle tanks are likely to refer to the predecessors of the advanced design, inherited inexpensive, rugged and durable characteristics.
China VT-1A tank comparable to the Russian-made T-80 - China Military Report

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## Manticore

Chinese main battle tanks VT1A

China VT1A main battle tank is the Chinese science and technology personnel in the previous trade tank , based on the combination of features required in today's wars battle tank developed a new generation of foreign trade.
China's foreign trade VT1A tanks tanks. China can not get the performance of active tanks, but from foreign tanks, you can speculate on the performance of active tank.
Maintainability: overall lifting power plant. Fire Control System: hunting - F type. Protection: main armor + modular composite reactive armor, the collective-three, automatic + manual fire. Article prediction, this tank once the international market would certainly be ever bought Chinese weapons countries to buy.

China VT1A main battle tanks - Design Features

Tank steering, by controlling the rotational speed of both sides of the track achieve. If the side of the track, move the other side of the track turn, the tank can be achieved turn, can be achieved with no moving track axis, turned 180 degrees. China VT1A MBT have a "central to" is not the same, which is based on the tank body center of a circle, pivot turn 180 degrees.
Tactical significance of this action are the following: You can achieve faster turn in combat, you can make the strongest armored car the first part with the fastest speed in the direction toward the greatest threat; turning radius is small, the narrow roads or on bridges exercise (eg simple pontoon), in exceptional circumstances, exercise can quickly change direction, with the fastest speed to leave dangerous; while simple pontoon, if there is no central steering function, you can only reverse.
In urban warfare, the center shifted in favor of tanks in the narrow streets to achieve steering, so the tank can enter more narrow streets, which greatly expanded the use of tanks function. Based on both sides of the track center to the opposite direction (ie, both sides of the track a forward movement of a backward movement) to achieve. This pair of power distribution and transmission mechanism has placed enormous demands, especially transmission, technical demanding.
China VT1A main battle tanks - equipment advantage

First, the Chinese sell weapons and equipment is prudent and responsible. We all know that the arms of this particular product , in the hands of just a private arms dealers in the market to earn bread and butter economics exchange sense of general merchandise; while in government hands, arms and the value of this commodity gradually been discovered, an economic, political and military sense of the strategic tool. Therefore, the military trade as an important part of national defense, this is nothing less than their original motivation are two: one is to make money, and the other is to acquire weapons to beat his opponent in the war.
Given weaponry sale is unique, so China has always adopted on arms export prudent and responsible attitude, the Chinese government has always strictly abide by relevant UN resolutions, never to by the United Nations Security Council arms embargo arms sales to countries and regions, which is very clear, while selling arms outward follow the "help the recipient country's legitimate self-defense capability, without prejudice to the relevant regional and world peace , security and stability, and non-interference in the internal affairs of acceptance, "the three basic principles.
Second, the Chinese-made weapons and equipment belong to the world advanced level. In recent years, China's new military front, the results continue, weapons and equipment level has been an inter-generational leap, such as manned spacecraft launch and complete spacewalk, marking space technology level has been second only to the United States and Russia ranks third in the world position. Chinese new column filled with F-10 fighter performance has not inferior to other Russian Su-27 fighter ace , "Chinese Aegis" destroyers and "Yuan" class submarine launched series also shows the level close to the Russian shipbuilding new.
Especially this year, the 60th anniversary of the parade, and further demonstrate Chinese advanced weapons and equipment , to make the world a number of developing countries, many countries, especially for Chinese-made weaponry quite interested, especially in some of the advanced main battle weapons, but also by many developing countries of all ages.
In recent years, with the "Made in China" (MADE IN CHINA) of industrial products marketing world, made &#8203;&#8203;weapons also reversed in the 1990s for export difficulties in the international arms market revival. Chinese military industry by virtue of FC1 Xiaolong fighters and other high-priced weapons opened the market. Third, China's political stability, relatively inexpensive weapons. China's political relatively stable, relatively stable policies, supporting the mechanical parts can be manufactured continuously, compared to the United States to stimulate the arms market, children constantly upgrading, China set of arms supplies to become the first choice of many countries. [1]

China VT1A main battle tanks - Technical Data

VT1A tank full weight 49 tons,
2.4 meters high (to turret roof)
Width of 3.5 m (shielded)
Length 10.33 m (gun forward)
Crew of 3 (with automatic loading machine)
Power 1200 hp, water-cooled turbocharged diesel engine
Power to weight ratio of 24 hp / ton
Maximum road speed of 69 km / h
Biggest road trip 450 one thousand meters
125 mm smoothbore gun
7.62 parallel machine gun
12.7 High machine.

China VT1A main battle tanks - tactical significance

One can achieve quicker steering, in battle , you can make the strongest armored car as fast as the first part of the biggest threats facing the direction.
2, the turning radius is small, the narrow roads or bridges to exercise (eg simple pontoon), in exceptional circumstances, exercise can quickly change direction, with the fastest speed to leave dangerous; while simple pontoon, if there is no central steering function , you can only reverse;
3, in urban combat, the center shifted in favor of tanks in the narrow streets to achieve steering, so the tank can enter more narrow streets, which greatly expanded the use of tanks function. Center to technical difficulties: the center is turned in the opposite direction on both sides of track (ie, both sides of the track a forward motion a backward movement) to achieve. This pair of power distribution and transmission mechanism has placed enormous demands, especially transmission, technically demanding. Chinese-made tanks can be achieved center steering, I believe that China must break through the bottleneck of this technique.


China VT1A main battle tanks - into North Africa

Earlier in 2010, a group of Chinese main battle tank VT1A serving in Morocco photo was posted to the Internet. Since then, about the "Made in China" into the North African market, topic, has been international military observers relish. United States, "chessboard" website recently published an article that China tanks moved into 60 years ago, the U.S. champion successfully Patton fought in North Africa desert, people have a sense of time interleaving.

Pakistan plays trading intermediaries
In recent years, China has changed the sale of weapons to non-sub-Saharan Africa as the main market tradition, through various channels, the influx has always been pro-Western Morocco. According to "Pakistan Defence Forum" website revealed, starting in 2006, Pakistan, Tanzania by Troy Islamic identity of the country, a large number of weapons with Chinese descent resold Morocco. Meanwhile, based on the motives aid fraternal countries, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia also pay for licensed production of Chinese weapons, and then transferred to Morocco and other countries. After verification, the first disclosure of VT1A tanks serving in Morocco was "distant Moroccan" forum. According to this source of information, CMB cooperation selling MBT-2000 "Khalid" tanks in 2008 to obtain Saudi favored, then sand the military to plan to buy a considerable amount of reserve materials or assistance as friendly countries. Some speculated that Morocco is likely to be concerned about Chinese tanks since then. Another analyst pointed out that the introduction of Chinese tanks Morocco motive may related with neighboring Algeria. 2006, A to Russia bought 300 T-90S main battle tank, the tank for desert warfare, completely overwhelm the existing fleet of US-made military Mount M60 tanks and legal AMX30 tanks . Considering Moal territorial disputes between the two countries in Western Sahara, Morocco VT1A quickly acquire more powerful tanks, is also reasonable.

In "Hell Test" to win
VT1A is China's foreign trade version MBT-2000 tanks latest improved models. It is the whole weight 49 tons, with a power of 1,200 hp engine, maximum road speed of more than 60 kilometers. The tank's power system has one more trick: through both sides of the track reverse rotation , you can achieve the body pivot turn. For main rival T-90S tanks, VT1A using low flow line shape, and the use of advanced composite armor, the exposed area of the body is almost the same tonnage of vehicles is minimal. To win firepower advantage, VT1A tanks not only equipped with a powerful 125 mm smoothbore gun, also uses a "hunting - F" type fire control system capable of hitting the 2,000 meters in the movement outside of a moving target. Tanks as well as advanced thermal imager to solve the hot, dusty environment probing questions.


It is worth mentioning that, VT1A (MBT-2000) tanks from the outset designed for desert warfare. A few years ago, the Pakistan Army has held a Chinese MBT-2000 tanks and tanks participated Western "Hell Test." At the time, test site is 45 to 53 degrees Celsius temperature, the road full of sand dunes and deep, the participating tanks per day to run 150 to 200 kilometers, which is traveling in the harsh terrain tracked vehicles, called the most severe test. The most interesting is shooting assessment. Pakistan requires tanks without artillery circumstances, in the wild, 40-50 degrees C immediately after exposure shooting, shooting distance is generally from 1800 to 2500 m, and the simulation environment for the big ups and downs of the process of moving pavement. Consolidated results of the tests, China's actual performance to stabilize the tank beat opponents. In fact, the Pakistani army large quantities of equipment MBT-2000 tanks, will undoubtedly promote Morocco facing similar battlefield environment make the same choice. [2]


??VT1A?????_????


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## Manticore



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## Keshav Murali

@ANTIBODY sir, 

VT-1A is a watered-down tank, at best I would say that its protection is equal to T-80U and armament also equal with superior mobility. T-80UD would be a slightly different story.

Electronics should be excellent.


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/106975-tank-designs-18.html
[Recurring problems of Soviet tank design]
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/22400-pa-tanks-comparison-contempory-tanks-48.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...type-90-iim-mbt-2000-information-pool-36.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/120722-anti-tank-missiles-4.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/268307-tank-ammunition.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/guns-corner/229716-tank-guns.html


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## farhan_9909

There is one video of Al khalid..where al khalid misses its target while moving


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## Dazzler

Hyperion said:


> @ANTIBODY, mate, I know that you aren't in the armed forces, but do tell why such infatuation with Tanks? I know that kids when young, have this dream of becoming a "pilot", because of all the presumed glitter and "too-ha" associated with it, however, I've yet to come across a kid who develops a passion for "tanks"....
> 
> So it is a relatively recent development or you always were into armored vehicles and stuff?



He has done a damn good job for sure, all info collection from various sources itself is a hectic job 



farhan_9909 said:


> There is one video of Al khalid..where al khalid misses its target while moving



2 out 10 times, its called margin for error

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## Manticore

The Norinco Type 85-III and 85-IIM tanks appear to share common ammunition specifications, and are said to both be compatible with T-72 ammunition. This may mean that these tank models are not compatible with APFSDS rounds for the Types 98, 99 and 90. About 300 Type 85-IIM tanks are thought to have been exported to Pakistan. This model is also said to field a tungsten based APFSDS-T round.

Chinese Norinco Tanks with 125mm gun


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## Manticore




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## Manticore

ChrisBV compared the 2 tanks -- I am posting the translation from spanish



> The composite armor of the MBT-2000 is not Chinese, was / is developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) of Pakistan, which appears to be quite competent in this field, because as reported Jane's, after numerous tests real fire, it was found that modular packages developed for shielding the turret and the hull of the tank were successfully withstand 120 and 125mm ammunition of all kinds.
> 
> It would be nice to substantiate their claims technically. In what ways do you argue that is "lower"? Regarding mobility, both tanks can reach a top speed similar both in forward (72km / h for the Leopard 2A4, 70 for the MBT-2000) and backward (32km / h for the German tank, 35 for the Sino-Pakistani). Its power to weight ratio is similar (27hp / t vs. 26.08hp / t), as well as the scope of road (400-500km). Both models can overcome trenches of similar size (2.70-3.00m), similar vertical obstacles (1.1m vs. 0.85m) side can negotiate gradients up to 60% and circumvent pending between 30 and 40%. control systems shooting and marksmanship are comparable, even in the most basic version of the MBT-2000: the look of the head of the Leopard 2 can scan through 360 ° and has optical magnification levels (x2 and x8) similar to the MBT-2000 (x7.5 ).
> 
> The gunner, in the case of the Leopard 2, has an optical magnification of x12, while the MBT-2000 Dual x3 and x10. In both cases, the views of both the gunner and the head are fully stabilized in two axes and the gunner, in both models, channels have day, night and thermal and laser rangefinder built. Even the "humble" and "Third World" FCS (totally westernized) copies of MBT-2000 that came to Peru with the thermal camera that brought Chinese factory farting, I was able to autotracking and hunter-killer mode. And since the tank, even in its most austere, included in the series present refinements Leopard 2 tanks and other contemporaries, such as modular composite armor, NBC protection system and smokeless pots launchers automatically activated, associated with a laser warning system (LWS). APFSDS ammunition at the time requested by Peru to be fired from 125mm Chinese cane the MBT-2000 is the best currently offered by the Republic of China, comparable to that available for the Leopard 2 by Rheinmetall. The ballistic properties of this ammunition were checked in situ by observers Peruvians live fire tests.
> 
> So do not get to understand how holding the MBT-2000 assessed the Peruvian Army is "inferior in every way" to Leopard 2. Therefore, it appears that they are fairly equivalent. And after the assessment made &#8203;&#8203;by the EP is clear that the development of this tank continues and has included a number of improvements to be maintained at a level competitive with the latest developments in this and other models. As mentioned previously, 55 % component tank new items purchased outside China - including the fire control system, autoloader, system electro-hydraulic control of the turret, engine, transmission, thermal camera, among others - to countries that have participated and continue to participate in the development of this tank as Ukraine, Belarus, France, UK, etc.. defense industries which are more than competent. Pakistan itself, Third, and groncho probrete sees it maintains a significant level of their heavy industries with facilities equipped with precision tools and production lines for the manufacture of tanks, as well as for the development of compounds capable shields to address current and future threats.
> 
> 
> Pakistan has a very competent defense industry - what can not be said for its neighbor, India - thanks to its strategic partnerships with countries such as Ukraine and the Republic of China, in the field of development and manufacture of armor has got good amount of successes, such as the licensed production of the Type 69-II tanks and NORINCO Type 85II AP and U.S. M113 APCs, and the development of special steels for the manufacture of guns and, as mentioned previously, shields compounds. MBT-2000 The original version still export only retains 45% of existing legacy components of Chinese-made vehicles, all the rest are foreign components integrated into the tank: the powerpack, as we know, is Ukrainian, as well as the autoloader, the FCS (westernized) is Eastern European (I think that Belarus), thermal camera in later models is European, etc.. and can be integrated upon request components - the EP, for example, did not want to manually Ukrainian transmission but an automatic French - also has built an efficient climate control system that allows the tank to operate at temperatures up to 55 ° C environments saturated with dust and / or fine sand particles. 's MBT-2000 and has a client export - Bangladesh, who asked medidados 2011 a batch of 44 tanks and 3 vehicles recyclers - and has been successfully assimilated by the Pakistani Army itself.

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## Dazzler

why ceramic armour is important in a mocern mbt?




> 1.3.4.2 Ceramics
> By far the most common &#8216;special armor&#8217; studied to increase AFV protectionare ceramics. It&#8217;s assumed to be the main component in Chobham armor.Ceramics are light but very hard materials, over 4 times as hard as the hardeststeel at only half the weight.
> This combination of light weight and highhardness
> 
> offers resistance to KE warheads comparable to RHA and,more importantly, resistance to shaped charge warheads up to twice theamount RHA offers
> . While this makes them good armor material, there areseveral drawbacks to the use of ceramics in tank design.
> 
> Firstly ceramics lack mechanical strength and can&#8217;t be used as support structures. Furthermore, tobe most effective they must be encased in metal, therefore diluting some of the weight and performance benefit. While the most basic ceramic, Alumina[AL2O3] is about as expensive as Aluminum or hard steel [twice the price of RHA], the really mass efficient ceramics can be up to 10 times the cost of Alumina.Ceramics have additional performance problems: They shatter on impactbecause the mechanical strength can&#8217;t survive the shock waves bouncing off the free tile edges. In tests, the resistance of a shattered steel-ceramic targetranges from 95% vs. AP shots to 80% vs. APFSDS. In addition, test on APimpacts of sloped ceramic-steel targets show that resistance is less than theLOS value, when the slanted resistance of RHA is more.
> In tests againstAPFSDS against slanted ceramics [SiC, AIN, AD-96, B4C & TiB2] of-fered about the same resistance as the LOS suggests.
> 
> Here are the resultsof a battery of normal impact tests from the Journals.
> Resistance relative to RHA Vs. APFSDSRatio of thickness of ceramic to steel in target 1:3 2:2 3:1
> 
> Resistance of Pyrex /Steel 0.58 0.87 0.8Resistance of Pyrex /Tungsten 1.06 1.12 1.16Resistance of Pyrex /Aluminum 0.46 0.6 0.78Resistance of fuzed Quartz/SHS 0.62 0.58 0.5Resistance of AD-85/RHA @ 1.7k/ms 0.96 0.99 0.89Resistance of AD-96/RHA @ 1.7 k/ms 0.96? 0.98 0.93Resistance of AD-97/SHS @ 1.7k/ms 1.2 1.07 1.05Resistance of AD-97/SHS @ 1.3 k/ms 1.3 1.18 0.98Resistance of AD-97/RHA @ 1.5 k/ms 1.0 1.03 0.96Resistance of AD-99/RHA @ 1.7k/ms 1.04 1.08 ?Resistance of AD-99/SHS @ 1.7k/ms 1.08 1.15? ?Resistance of UO
> 2
> -87/RHA @ 1.5 k/ms 1.04 1.6 2.0 (est.)Resistance of UO
> 2
> -100/RHA @ 1.5 k/ms 1.22 1.8 2.34 (est.)Resistance of AIN /RHA @ 1.8k/ms 0.96 1.06 0.97Resistance of SiC /RHA @ 1.7k/ms 0.96 1.02 1.02Resistance of B4C/RHA @ 1.7 k/ms 0.93? 0.91 0.87Shaped Charge resistance @ standoff Resistance of Glass[fuzed Quartz]
> Vs. HEAT @ 2:1 standoff 1.1 1.23 1.27Vs. HEAT @ 6:1 standoff 1.4 1.77 1.88


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## Keshav Murali

ANTIBODY said:


> The Norinco Type 85-III and 85-IIM tanks appear to share common ammunition specifications, and are said to both be compatible with T-72 ammunition. This may mean that these tank models are not compatible with APFSDS rounds for the Types 98, 99 and 90. About 300 Type 85-IIM tanks are thought to have been exported to Pakistan. This model is also said to field a tungsten based APFSDS-T round.
> 
> Chinese Norinco Tanks with 125mm gun



Any tank with a 2A46 gun or variant which is strong enough should be able to fire all 125 rounds.


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## Manticore




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## Dr. Strangelove

@ANTIBODY 
@Dazzler
DOES AL KHALID have blow off pannels

and what is the difference between cast and welded turrets


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## Keshav Murali

wasm95 said:


> @ANTIBODY
> @Dazzler
> *DOES AL KHALID have blow off pannels*
> 
> and what is the difference between cast and welded turrets



No. Al-Khalid does not have BO panels. It's not like it needs one. AZ autoloader is hard to hit.

Cast turrets are directly cast in steel moulds, they are generally weaker, provide lesser protection and are harder to use with composite modules.

Welded turrets are made by welding rolled steel. They are generally better, but might weigh more.

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## Bilal.

Question: do you guys see future composite armour utilising graphene? This material is extremely strong and light weight but not in mass production yet.


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## hurt

Keshav Murali said:


> Any tank with a 2A46 gun or variant which is strong enough should be able to fire all 125 rounds.



Plz do not forget Autoloader


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## Keshav Murali

hurt said:


> Plz do not forget Autoloader



Manual loading 

Autoloader doesn't matter at that time. 

Gun and autoloader are separate.


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## hurt

Keshav Murali said:


> Manual loading
> 
> Autoloader doesn't matter at that time.
> 
> Gun and autoloader are separate.



Did you see a real tank?

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## Bratva



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## piddu

nice pakistan zindabad


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## Dr. Strangelove

@Manticore whats the unit price of al khalid 1

the srilankans were buying 22 al khalids for 100 million$ that makes 4.5+ million$ per unit 

wiki says 4.7 million to 5.8 million $


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## smarthief

Thanks very informative thread about al khalid tank .... no doubt its world best tank.


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## Kompromat

smarthief said:


> Thanks very informative thread about al khalid tank .... no doubt its world best tank.



Its not world's best tank, but it is a loud bang for the buck we pay.

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## Nishan_101

I think that HIT has produced about 700 AK-Is and INSHA ALLAH they will going to start manufacturing 1100 AK-IIs for 5 years and then AK-IIIs


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## smarthief

Aeronaut said:


> Its not world's best tank, but it is a loud bang for the buck we pay.



But in our tv media its best of the best


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## SQ8

smarthief said:


> But in our tv media its best of the best



Dont believe everything in the media.. look what good that has brought to us..or for that matter our neighbours.

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## alimobin memon

mafiya said:


>



The main gun Barrel length is shorten that is probably Pakistani Barrel which was designed and produced by HIT...

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## farhan_9909

alimobin memon said:


> The main gun Barrel length is shorten that is probably Pakistani Barrel which was designed and produced by HIT...



they are same


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## Mughal-Prince

Is their any system like trophy we are considering ???
Can someone tell me the rotation speed of turret ... Thanks


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## smarthief

Oscar said:


> Dont believe everything in the media.. look what good that has brought to us..or for that matter our neighbours.



valid point .... things should be improved day by day


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## farhan_9909

It seems like AL KHALID II is all set to roll out soon.

Though china's Don't have any 1200hp engine but rather 1300HP.
Considering a 1300HP engine we can assume that the Al khalid II indeed would have crossed the 50tons benchmark and may weighs around 52-53tons



> *Experts: Missile Test Firing Shows Development Complete*
> *Nov. 6, 2013 - 06:07PM |
> By USMAN ANSARI*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan's army chief Gen. Ashfaq Kayani was onhand to witness the test of Pakistan's Hatf-IX/Vengeance-IX missile, otherwise known as 'Nasr,' on Oct. 5. (Aamir Qureshi / Getty Images)
> ISLAMABAD* — The Oct. 5 test of Pakistan’s Hatf-IX/Vengeance-IX missile, otherwise known as ‘Nasr,’ shows its development has been completed and the command-and-control systems are in place, allowing it to be deployed, say analysts.
> 
> A press release by the military’s Inter Service Public Relations (ISPR) media branch stated the successful test was “conducted with successive launches of 4 x missiles (salvo) from a state of the art multi tube launcher.”
> 
> Nasr is a mobile, quick-reaction, four-round weapon system capable of delivering its nuclear-armed, short-range ballistic missiles up to 60 kilometers.
> 
> The test was witnessed by the Chief of the Army Staff, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kiyani; the director general of the Strategic Plans Division (which handles all aspects of the non-conventional program) Lt. Gen Khalid Ahmad Kidwai; and the chairman of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (which designed the Nasr missile system), Muhammad Irfan Burney.
> 
> Mansoor Ahmed from Quaid-e-Azam University’s Department of Defence and Strategic Studies, who specializes in Pakistan’s national deterrent and delivery program, says the test signified the commitment to enhancing the Nasr’s effectiveness, but that two aspects stand out.
> 
> “It was the second test of a salvo fired from a four-round launcher, and its in-flight maneuver capability is being improved to defeat potential Indian missile defenses against artillery rockets and short-range ballistic missiles, such as the Israeli Iron Dome system,” he said.
> 
> Ahmed said this means Nasr has “passed the initial R&D phase and has been accepted and possibly been inducted into service by the Pakistan Army’s Strategic Forces.”
> 
> The ISPR statement’s mention of full-spectrum deterrence at tactical and strategic level, Ahmed believes, means the Nasr missile system has been “fully integrated into the centralized command-and-control structure through round the clock situational awareness in a digitized network centric environment to decision makers at National Command Center.”
> 
> Nasr is obviously India-specific, he said, and the salvo launch capability is a key ability in stopping Indian armored thrusts into Pakistani territory.
> 
> “The salvo launch demonstrates that Pakistan is steadily improving its counterforce capabilities against Indian armored thrusts as part of the Indian ‘Cold Start’ doctrine with the option of using low-yield, boosted fission, plutonium warheads in the possible range of 0.5 to 5 kilotons in case of a breakdown of conventional defenses,” he said.
> 
> It also “implies Pakistan has fully integrated the concept,and procedures to employ tactical nuclear weapons when, and if, required against the enemy, as part of its flexible force posture in the face of emerging and evolving threats,” says Ahmed.
> 
> Pakistan’s switch to the production of plutonium and stockpiling fissile material has been very topical, and Ahmed says the test show “Pakistan appears to have increased confidence in continuing to build sophisticated, miniaturized warheads for the Nasr missiles.
> 
> “Such tests are also designed re-enforce the message that Pakistan’s capabilities to produce miniaturized warheads for battlefield nuclear weapons have progressively matured,” Ahmed added.
> 
> However, Ahmed points out that “tactical nuclear weapons used to supplement conventional defenses would be only employed in case of deterrence failure.”
> 
> Given a paucity of funds as a result of Pakistan’s economic downturn, much of the military’s modernization plans have been postponed or even abandoned.
> 
> If the development of Nasr is complete, and if there are no other major non-conventional related programs in need of funds, it could mean finances could be freed up for conventional programs.
> 
> Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Nasr’s development has not yet finished. However, there nevertheless could be some movement in bringing the conventional modernization programs back on track.
> *
> He highlights the Army’s tank fleet, which has seen mixed fortunes. The T-80UD upgrade appears to have been postponed, but further development of the Al-Khalid MBT has continued and development of the Al-Khalid II is nearing completion.
> 
> “The Al-Khalid II is to be equipped with a Chinese 1,200 HP diesel engine with a German or South Korean gear box, and the Army has also evaluated the Ukrainian Kombat tandem-warhead gun fired anti-tank guided missile,” he said.*
> 
> Generally however, the government has recently released a small amount of “much needed procurement funds for all three services” that should keep their modernization/procurement programs alive until the economy can improve further allowing for deals to be finalized.
> 
> *“The Army is exploring acquiring a new wheeled APC [the Serbian Lazar 2], a general utility helicopter, and an attack helicopter from Turkey or the USA. The Navy is hoping to finalize a deal to manufacture four more improved F-22P frigates plus, if enough funds are available, new subs from China and/or Germany.*
> “The Air Force, on the other hand, hopes to acquire more F-16s, seal a deal for J-10 aircraft from China, and more transport aircraft, plus a new SAM system also from China”, he said.

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## snkhan

A wonderful Tank of Pakistan.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Manticore

Manticore said:


> *Requirements met by al-khalid*
> 
> 
> KSA had in principle agreed to buy 150 Al-Khalid tanks worth $600 million. All trails are COMPLETED and some modification have already made to Al-Khalid. (current Al Khalid)
> 
> 1- Trials at 55 C were successful with very fine dust not making any impediment on the engine and performance of the tank. (not many Indian Tanks have achieved that)
> 
> 2- Turret power control now is all electrically controlled backed by manual control (KSA)
> 
> 3- A new European Renk LSG 3000 transmission has been incorporated (KSA) (SESM 500 for Pak)
> 
> 4- There is some type of &#8216;special&#8217; armor has been installed. During trails this &#8216;special&#8217; armor (on the hull and turret) tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120 & 125 mm tank projectiles. (PA & KSA) (this is the armor is was talking about)
> 
> 5- Modifications have been completed which resulted in increasing the 125 mm rounds from 39 to 49
> 
> 6- Ammo storage for 12.7 & 7.62 mm has increased from 1,000 to 1,500 and 4,000 to 7,100 rounds respectively, thus, making Al-Khalid the most heavily weaponized tank in the world.
> 
> 7- The power pack (engine, transmission & cooling system) can be removed in 30 minutes and reinstalled in 35 minutes.
> 
> 8- KSA Al-Khalid will be equipped with (PA also), IBMS (PA also), and active threat-protection system.
> 
> 
> 
> Peru's requirements were:
> 
> 1) Capability of withstanding modern ammo fired by 120L55 from distances higher than 2000 meters.
> 2) Acceptable capability of resisting a Spike hit.
> 3) Capability of tracking and destroying a Leo-2A6 from 2800 meters in all weather conditions.
> 4) Delivery of tanks within a year.


[/quote]

This is some info I had found on the net in the past- As members were discussing this stuff these days, Ive brought it to your attention 
@al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend

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## Dazzler



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## Arsalan

This is some info I had found on the net in the past- As members were discussing this stuff these days, Ive brought it to your attention
@al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend[/quote]

It is really unfortunate that nothing materialized afterwards. More due to the Saudi Arabia's love for the US/EU machines then any short coming on Al Khalid's part.

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## Informant

Arsalan said:


> This is some info I had found on the net in the past- As members were discussing this stuff these days, Ive brought it to your attention
> @al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend



It is really unfortunate that nothing materialized afterwards. More due to the Saudi Arabia's love for the US/EU machines then any short coming on Al Khalid's part.[/quote]

Their requirement was for a heavy tank. AK doesnt fall in that category plus AK doesnt have just as much protection.


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## Bilal.

Informant said:


> It is really unfortunate that nothing materialized afterwards. More due to the Saudi Arabia's love for the US/EU machines then any short coming on Al Khalid's part.



Their requirement was for a heavy tank. AK doesnt fall in that category plus AK doesnt have just as much protection.[/quote]

The requirements might have shifted but they actually gave a set to upgrades that they required in AK(increased ammo carriage, etc that ended up being AK-1) if the requirement were not their, there won't be demos, user trials, planned trials in KSA and wish lists for upgrades.


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## Dazzler

Informant said:


> Their requirement was for a heavy tank. AK doesnt fall in that category plus AK doesnt have just as much protection.



my friend, they had to replace their AMX fleet with an appropriate replacement, they already had M1A2, if they needed heavy beasts, why they never went for more Abrams or Leo-2Axxs? Its all politics, also, we held our noses high and were not interested in selling 40-50 pieces. So it didnt work out.

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## Informant

Dazzler said:


> my friend, they had to replace their AMX fleet with an appropriate replacement, they already had M1A2, if they needed heavy beasts, why they never went for more Abrams or Leo-2Axxs? Its all politics, also, we held our noses high and were not interested in selling 40-50 pieces. So it didnt work out.



Didnt KSA go for the new Turk tank i forget the name or whatever that behemoth ( 65 tons, 18 tons more than AK ) is. KSA can and has the ability to attain top of the line stuff so they did. Plus they do need heavy tanks, their infrastructure can support it.

Plus the Altay's per unit price is $5.5 mil, whats the AK-I or AK-II unit price?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Informant said:


> Didnt KSA go for the new Turk tank i forget the name or whatever that behemoth ( 65 tons, 18 tons more than AK ) is. KSA can and has the ability to attain top of the line stuff so they did. Plus they do need heavy tanks, their infrastructure can support it.



Altay is still in development .. Not to forget the reports tht the Turks received tot or help for its armour..

Also based on specs AK beats T-90 hands down .. Does tht mean it's not top of the line or inferior ?Amigo?


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## Informant

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Altay is still in development .. Not to forget the reports tht the Turks received tot or help for its armour..
> 
> Also based on specs AK beats T-90 hands down .. Does tht mean it's not top of the line or inferior ?Amigo?



I know AK beats T-90s hands down in performance, my comparison was with French Leclerc and Altays. Armor protection in AK seems minimal.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Informant said:


> I know AK beats T-90s hands down in performance, my comparison was with French Leclerc and Altays. Armor protection in AK seems minimal.



Sure go ahead .. But how can you compare a tank thts still under development with one thts in service?

As for minimum protection .. This issue has been discussed to death ..@Dazzler 

As for price per unit .. Bangladeshis bought the watered down MBT-2000 version for almost 4 million $.. Compare tht to a AK or AK I .. Probably much more..


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## Informant

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sure go ahead .. But how can you compare a tank thts still under development with one thts in service?
> 
> As for minimum protection .. This issue has been discussed to death ..@Dazzler
> 
> As for price per unit .. Bangladeshis bought the watered down MBT-2000 version for almost 4 million $.. Compare tht to a AK or AK I .. Probably much more..



Altay has been procured by KSA at $5.5m a piece, sure it still needs time to complete trials.

Whats the AK resolution for video input in thermal imaging range? 1080p, 720p or lower?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Informant said:


> Altay has been procured by KSA at $5.5m a piece, sure it still needs time to complete trials.
> 
> Whats the AK resolution for video input in thermal imaging range? 1080p, 720p or lower?



There is no confirmation o the Saudi purchase of altay .. Credible sources only reported Saudi interest in altay and anka(which also has Pak developed parts)..

Here is an ol pic ... Courtesy of @Manticore :

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## Dazzler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> There is no confirmation o the Saudi purchase of altay .. Credible sources only reported Saudi interest in altay and anka(which also has Pak developed parts)..
> 
> Here is an ol pic ... Courtesy of @Manticore :
> View attachment 14833




the above is from an image intensification sight, below is from a thermal imager (catherine FC, operational on T-80ud, type-85IIAP, AKs ) 









AK night sights, image intensifier on right, thermal imager on left..

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## Shah9

How many Al-Khalid Pakistan have in total?


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## Arsalan

Informant said:


> It is really unfortunate that nothing materialized afterwards. More due to the Saudi Arabia's love for the US/EU machines then any short coming on Al Khalid's part.



Their requirement was for a heavy tank. AK doesnt fall in that category plus AK doesnt have just as much protection.[/quote]
most of the requirements put forward by the Saudi officials were met and would have been incorporated in the version delivered to them. Anyways, it is gone now and if there is any thing developing between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia now it is good for both.


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## alimobin memon

This is some info I had found on the net in the past- As members were discussing this stuff these days, Ive brought it to your attention
@al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend[/quote]

I have a question if peru didnt bought AK does it mean it can't hit the Leopard 2a6 at 2800 meters ?


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## SQ8

Lets not all get sheepish in a wave of patriotism. The AK is a fine tank but it is NOT the best in the world. Against contemporary western tanks the AK is able to hold its own, but is not the prime combination of systems, armour, weapons and crew comfort/intuitive that money can buy.. and the Arabs like blowing money in competition with each other(_offence nit explicitly or implicitly meant but no hoots given if taken_).. After all, other GCC nations have them.. do they not?

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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> This is some info I had found on the net in the past- As members were discussing this stuff these days, Ive brought it to your attention
> @al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend
> 
> I have a question if peru didnt bought AK does it mean it can't hit the Leopard 2a6 at 2800 meters ?



Not true, the mbt 2000/ vt1a has a good FCS, with zpt-98 gun which has an effective range of 4000 meters for a tank sze target.


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## Dazzler

Regarding Peruvian trials, @Manticore posted this few pages ago, ukraine pitted oplots for tender, refused 6td engines for vt-1a. By the time China worked on mbt-3000, russians had the deal with t-90S


Chris BV..



> The composite armor of the MBT-2000 is not Chinese, was / is developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) of Pakistan, which appears to be quite competent in this field, because as reported Jane's, after numerous tests real fire, it was found that modular packages developed for shielding the turret and the hull of the tank were successfully withstand 120 and 125mm ammunition of all kinds.
> 
> It would be nice to substantiate their claims technically. In what ways do you argue that is "lower"? Regarding mobility, both tanks can reach a top speed similar both in forward (72km / h for the Leopard 2A4, 70 for the MBT-2000) and backward (32km / h for the German tank, 35 for the Sino-Pakistani). Its power to weight ratio is similar (27hp / t vs. 26.08hp / t), as well as the scope of road (400-500km). Both models can overcome trenches of similar size (2.70-3.00m), similar vertical obstacles (1.1m vs. 0.85m) side can negotiate gradients up to 60% and circumvent pending between 30 and 40%. control systems shooting and marksmanship are comparable, even in the most basic version of the MBT-2000: the look of the head of the Leopard 2 can scan through 360 ° and has optical magnification levels (x2 and x8) similar to the MBT-2000 (x7.5 ).
> 
> The gunner, in the case of the Leopard 2, has an optical magnification of x12, while the MBT-2000 Dual x3 and x10. In both cases, the views of both the gunner and the head are fully stabilized in two axes and the gunner, in both models, channels have day, night and thermal and laser rangefinder built. Even the "humble" and "Third World" FCS (totally westernized) copies of MBT-2000 that came to Peru with the thermal camera that brought Chinese factory farting, I was able to autotracking and hunter-killer mode. And since the tank, even in its most austere, included in the series present refinements Leopard 2 tanks and other contemporaries, such as modular composite armor, NBC protection system and smokeless pots launchers automatically activated, associated with a laser warning system (LWS). APFSDS ammunition at the time requested by Peru to be fired from 125mm Chinese cane the MBT-2000 is the best currently offered by the Republic of China, comparable to that available for the Leopard 2 by Rheinmetall. The ballistic properties of this ammunition were checked in situ by observers Peruvians live fire tests.
> 
> So do not get to understand how holding the MBT-2000 assessed the Peruvian Army is "inferior in every way" to Leopard 2. Therefore, it appears that they are fairly equivalent. And after the assessment made &#8203;&#8203;by the EP is clear that the development of this tank continues and has included a number of improvements to be maintained at a level competitive with the latest developments in this and other models. As mentioned previously, 55 % component tank new items purchased outside China - including the fire control system, autoloader, system electro-hydraulic control of the turret, engine, transmission, thermal camera, among others - to countries that have participated and continue to participate in the development of this tank as Ukraine, Belarus, France, UK, etc.. defense industries which are more than competent. Pakistan itself, Third, and groncho probrete sees it maintains a significant level of their heavy industries with facilities equipped with precision tools and production lines for the manufacture of tanks, as well as for the development of compounds capable shields to address current and future threats.
> 
> 
> Pakistan has a very competent defense industry - what can not be said for its neighbor, India - thanks to its strategic partnerships with countries such as Ukraine and the Republic of China, in the field of development and manufacture of armor has got good amount of successes, such as the licensed production of the Type 69-II tanks and NORINCO Type 85II AP and U.S. M113 APCs, and the development of special steels for the manufacture of guns and, as mentioned previously, shields compounds. MBT-2000 The original version still export only retains 45% of existing legacy components of Chinese-made vehicles, all the rest are foreign components integrated into the tank: the powerpack, as we know, is Ukrainian, as well as the autoloader, the FCS (westernized) is Eastern European (I think that Belarus), thermal camera in later models is European, etc.. and can be integrated upon request components - the EP, for example, did not want to manually Ukrainian transmission but an automatic French - also has built an efficient climate control system that allows the tank to operate at temperatures up to 55 ° C environments saturated with dust and / or fine sand particles. 's MBT-2000 and has a client export - Bangladesh, who asked medidados 2011 a batch of 44 tanks and 3 vehicles recyclers - and has been successfully assimilated by the Pakistani Army itself.

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## alimobin memon

Dazzler said:


> Not true, the mbt 2000/ vt1a has a good FCS, with zpt-98 gun which has an effective range of 4000 meters for a tank sze target.


Al khalid has 6-7km range effective. According to my lil knowledge AK is better than mbt 3000, 2000 and vt1A Because it has Pakistani designation of armour and systems.


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## Keshav Murali

alimobin memon said:


> Al khalid has 6-7km range effective. According to my lil knowledge AK is better than mbt 3000, 2000 and vt1A Because it has Pakistani designation of armour and systems.



The tank should be able to *see *upto that range, but while firing, aiming at any specific spot is futile (shot is off by a few *meters*), and penetration is reduced enough to make high-quality APFSDS rounds ineffective against strong armour of modern tanks. Really, though, just because Al-Khalid has Pakistani armour and systems doesn't make it better.

Relying on your own armour and systems can prove invaluable in times of war, though.


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## alimobin memon

Keshav Murali said:


> The tank should be able to *see *upto that range, but while firing, aiming at any specific spot is futile (shot is off by a few *meters*), and penetration is reduced enough to make high-quality APFSDS rounds ineffective against strong armour of modern tanks. Really, though, just because Al-Khalid has Pakistani armour and systems doesn't make it better.
> 
> Relying on your own armour and systems can prove invaluable in times of war, though.


Im saying on the basis that The Armour for mbt 2000 of pakistani origin is better than the original mbt 2000 chinese armour. Which withstand all known modern tank rounds.



alimobin memon said:


> Im saying on the basis that The Armour for mbt 2000 of pakistani origin is better than the original mbt 2000 chinese armour. Which withstand all known modern tank rounds.


furthermore apfsds round are kinetic so greater the distance greater energy possessed to counter any target. Only heat and explosive type rounds lack long range power.


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## Dazzler

@alimobin memon and @Keshav Murali 

both of you are correct,

The gun (both 120mm and 125mm) can fire at much longer distances, somewhere around 7-8km or more but the limiting factor is the FCS and optics, remember these two can recognize/ identify the target at lesser ranges.


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## Keshav Murali

Dazzler said:


> @alimobin memon and @Keshav Murali
> 
> both of you are correct,
> 
> The gun (both 120mm and 125mm) can fire at much longer distances, somewhere around 7-8km or more but the limiting factor is the FCS and optics, remember these two can recognize/ identify the target at lesser ranges.



What I mean to say is, at a range like that, the round would have slowed down by upto 300 m/s, not drastic, but it reduces penetration by more than a bit.



alimobin memon said:


> Im saying on the basis that The Armour for mbt 2000 of pakistani origin is better than the original mbt 2000 chinese armour. Which withstand all known modern tank rounds.



This has been said before. The best 120 and 125 mm rounds available for Pakistani and Chinese testing would be:

*120 mm: *At *best, *KEW-A1 (from the middle-east, Pakistan could have gotten it)
*125 mm: *At *best, *3BM44M or similar rounds.

Both of which are not upto the NATO standard, say DM-53, M829A2 and above.

Unless Pakistan or China gets hold of a Rheinmetall-120 and DM-53 or something, somehow, we cannot say that the armour can withstand *all known modern tank rounds*.


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## Kompromat

Shah9 said:


> How many Al-Khalid Pakistan have in total?



600 on order
300+ have already been delivered.
Rest will be upgraded AK-1 and AK-2 variants.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> 600 on order
> 300+ have already been delivered. Rest will be upgraded AK-1 and AK-2 variants.


 
I read requirement numbers were 1200.

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## alimobin memon

Keshav Murali said:


> What I mean to say is, at a range like that, the round would have slowed down by upto 300 m/s, not drastic, but it reduces penetration by more than a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been said before. The best 120 and 125 mm rounds available for Pakistani and Chinese testing would be:
> 
> *120 mm: *At *best, *KEW-A1 (from the middle-east, Pakistan could have gotten it)
> *125 mm: *At *best, *3BM44M or similar rounds.
> 
> Both of which are not upto the NATO standard, say DM-53, M829A2 and above.
> 
> Unless Pakistan or China gets hold of a Rheinmetall-120 and DM-53 or something, somehow, we cannot say that the armour can withstand *all known modern tank rounds*.


The rounds available to PAK at best is completely Biased There is no proof that they didn't get Rheinmetall. There is market that provides u weapons which are not easily available.


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## Umair Nawaz

Aeronaut said:


> 600 on order
> 300+ have already been delivered.
> Rest will be upgraded AK-1 and AK-2 variants.


600 for AK basic.........AK1 and AK2 will jointly make Armour numbers in future along with AK basic!

In future Type 59s/85s,69s and AZs will be retired and full Armour Divisions will comprise of AK series which may reach upto 2500-3000.



Luftwaffe said:


> I read requirement numbers were 1200.


yup 600 r AK basic and next 600 will be AK1 which is in production.


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## Dazzler

fleetwide upgradation of AK to AK-1 standard is already in process.


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## Keshav Murali

alimobin memon said:


> The rounds available to PAK at best is completely Biased There is no proof that they didn't get Rheinmetall. There is market that provides u weapons which are not easily available.



How is it biased? 

And, while Pakistan could've gotten the gun, there is very little chance of obtaining M829A3 or DM53/63 through *any *non-shady means. And that means I still have a point.

*P.S. *Nice market


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## alimobin memon

Keshav Murali said:


> How is it biased?
> 
> And, while Pakistan could've gotten the gun, there is very little chance of obtaining M829A3 or DM53/63 through *any *non-shady means. And that means I still have a point.
> 
> *P.S. *Nice market


I respect your view but I don't agree with you on this.

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## Dazzler

Keshav Murali said:


> How is it biased?
> 
> And, while Pakistan could've gotten the gun, there is very little chance of obtaining M829A3 or DM53/63 through *any *non-shady means. And that means I still have a point.
> 
> *P.S. *Nice market



we may never know this for sure, however they may have got some through black market  

in general, you have a valid point.


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## alimobin memon

Dazzler said:


> we may never know this for sure, however they may have got some through black market
> 
> in general, you have a valid point.


yea


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## Dazzler

Ukrainian tank expert Andrei Bt on Al Khalid.. though he is wrong about the engine which is not the CV-12 condor, rather the 6td-2



Основной боевой танк «Тип 90-II»




In June 1991, China and Pakistan for the first time publicly demonstrated third-generation tank, designated "Type 90-II».Development of the tank began with the mid-1980s, when the Chinese have purchased from one of the countries of the Middle East a few T-72M Russian production (as mentioned earlier, the 125-mm gun of the T-72M and autoloader to it were mastered Chinese industry and installed on tanks "Type 85-IIM/88C»). Originally intended to be established on the basis of the tank body and chassis T-72M with a new welded turret, 120mm main gun western-style (it was held on the testing of the experimental tank "type 59Gai»), modern fire control system and the German American or the power unit. But time has made its own adjustments. 

Experts of the company NORINCO based machine design invested constructively layout solutions implemented in the tanks of the third generation, created by leading foreign countries. As a basis, as foreseen in the beginning, used chassis and hull of the T-72M, which is installed with welded turret developed aft niche similar turret series «85-IIM/88C». That's only armament was chosen again Russian: it was reported that the tank is fitted 125-mm smoothbore gun with automatic loader 2A46M. In the creation of the tank "Type 90-II» participated actively in the French and British firms, and final assembly took place in Pakistan. Was completely new to the Chinese tank development that almost all the equipment and armament (with few exceptions) were purchased or produced quite officially licensed. 

The press reported the following: tank "Type 90-II» design has 10% borrowed from the tank "59", 15% in "69", 20% in «85/88C», and the remaining 55% - a new technical solutions . As is the case with the tank "Type 85", the main efforts were directed at creating export sample, which resulted in the creation of main battle tank "Al Khalid "(official name existed in parallel MBT-2000 or P-90) for the Pakistani army, which began carried out by the Pakistani " Taxila "(HIT). Further work in China over the tank "90-II» focused on improving the overall design of the machine, which are used as a platform already built models. In 1995, China, Russia demonstrated the latest versions of the T-80U to supply the armed forces of the PLA, prompting a program to create the third generation of Chinese tanks "Type 98". 

The layout of the tank "Type 90-II» provides a front-mounted control department (the driver sits in the center), average - the crew compartment (gunner on the left of the gun, the commander - the right) and the power pack at the rear. The body is a welded construction of rolled homogeneous armor, frontal part of which is made of combination (similar to tank "88c"). On the lower front part casing mounted device entrenching copied from the T-72M. Place mechanics driver equipped sunroof and periscope observation. Periscope head has a fairly wide window allowing to conduct a limited review of the right and left, and also has a built-in night vision active-passive type. Addition to the driver and controls movement, intended part of the body is a tank-rack with a piece of ammunition for the gun and fire suppression system cylinders. 

welded turret in circular rotation is adopted, the fire control system and the commander and gunner. At the very first prototype was installed tower similar tank "type 88c" on the following - modified, with increased resistance protivosnaryadnoy, change the layout of equipment and increased forage niche. reported that details on the front hull and turret may establish additional bronelisty composite armor, and its thickness is approximately equivalent*600* mmthe tower and *450 ... 470* mm from the housing. Modular design allows for quick booking tower to replace damaged items or set up in their place reinforced blocks. If necessary protection of the tank can be enhanced through the installation of its own production of reactive armor type FY.

The main armament is a 125 mm smoothbore gun with chrome 2A46M the bore, by housing and ejector. The new gun with a barrel length of 51 gauge (according to other sources - 48 caliber) has an improved brake system rollback, which greatly improves accuracy. Total body weight guns without a stabilizer and mantle result is2443 kg, Sliding parts - 1970 kg. reported that guns manufactured in China under license, which likely was purchased from Russia, but this was only tanks' Al Khalid »/ MBT-2000, since the new Chinese MBT" Type 98 "mounted gun 2A46. Automatic loading carousel similar to Russian AZ installed on tanks T-72 series and Chinese "88c". Ammunition is 39 rounds of separate-loading sleeves, 22 of which are located in the mechanical boeukladke under the tower, and the other 17 - in the machine. Obviously, the tank "90-II» uses the same 125-mm ammunition company NORINCO, and that "88c" - piercing Subcaliber (initial velocity of 1760 m / s), the cumulative (850 m / s) and high explosive (950 m / s), but beyond that assumes the existence of a new armor-piercing sabotfeathered projectile of depleted uranium (APFSDS ), since it is known that China is actively cooperating with Israel in this fieldand already produces similar 105-mm shells for tanks "Type 88B / A» and «Type 59D». 

Tank "90-II» is equipped with modern advanced fire control system, purchased in France and similar installed on the tank "Leclerc ". MSAs are basic elements: a digital ballistic computer, control panel, periscope gunner's sight with thermal imagingcamera, an integrated laser rangefinder and independently stabilized in two planes of the line of sight; combined periscope sight-surveillance device commander (with panoramic head type) display commander, two-plane stabilizer arms - a copy of the Russian 2E28 "Lilac" and a set of different sensors (atmospheric sensor is the same as the "Type 88c"). arms control is carried out both from the gunner and commander of . Drives guidance - electro and hand. Due to the fact that the head panoramic sight can be rotated 180 °, as the commander's cupola is none, and on the perimeter of the hatch commander identified six periscopes observations to improve visibility. Some sources indicate that the tanks "Type 90-II» / IMT-2000 have a special system of automatic tracking ( automatic target Tracking system ), but what kind of system - is not precisely known.

Auxiliary tank armament includes twin gun 7.62-mm machine gun (3000 rounds ammunition) and 12.7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun «W-85" on the turret (500 rounds), which is installed between the commander's hatch and the gun. The firing of anti-aircraft machine gun can only be fought in the front sector. To protect the crew from weapons of mass destruction designed anti-nuclear collective system (ESD) with filtered ventilation installation and to prevent fire - fighting equipment of modern fast. Judging by the photos in the tower tank "Type 90-II» mounted exhaust fan, which reduces fumes in the crew compartment, which was not on the tanks "Type 85-IIM/88C». Cowl is on the left before the commander's hatch. For full-scale tests were constructed tanks with two different engines. On the first embodiment, the combined power block includes 8-cylinder diesel engine1200 L. P. created on the basis of German technology diesel MTU396, manufactured in China under license, and automatic transmission Renk LSG3000. 

Liquid-cooled engine is turbocharged and advanced cooling system, consisting of two ring radiator with centrifugal fans (so characteristic roof made two round windows, like a tank "Leopard 2"). Intakes are located on the roof of the MTO under the aft turret niche. Because of the relatively high altitude of the power unit aft hull significantly higher turret. On the second embodiment, the tank was set to English V-shaped 12-cylinder diesel engine " Perkins EngineCompany "CV-12-1200 TCA" Condor "liquid-cooled turbo power1200 L. With. (Such as standing on a tank "Challenger") and French hydromechanical automatic transmission SESM ESM-500 (MBT stands for " Leclerc "), providing for the movement of one of the four forward gears and two - back. At this modification roof MTO below and on the sides of the aft hull longitudinal made blinds. Replacing the power block either of these two configurations in the field should not exceed 30 minutes. There was another project "90-II», involves the installation of MTU engine 871 or " General Dynamics Land Systems "AVDS-1790 (the one with a 120 mm gun), but it has remained on paper. 
1200-hp engine provides a 46-ton machine good mobility and high throughput, and the power density is26,09 l. With. / TonThe maximum speed on the highway tank develops -70 km / hAnd speed developed by a space 10 seconds is32km / h.Cruising due to high fuel consumption does not exceed400 kmBut with additional fuel tanks in the stern it reaches 500 ... 550 km. Chassis with torsion bar suspension copied from the T-72M and has the support of six and three support rubberized roller on both sides of the hull. Rollers from the T-72 was preferred because of their reliability, low cost and ease of manufacture. On the first, second and sixth pylons are Hydromount . Rear drive wheel location. Tracks similar to tank "88c", equipped with RLL, rubberized running track and rubber boots. The machine is capable to overcome the vertical wall height0.85m, Trench width 2.7 m, Water obstacle with snorkel depth 5.5 m (Equipment is in the rear recess of the tower). Maximum angle of elevation is 30 °, roll - 15 °. Chassis with hinged sides protected by standard rubber-fabric screens or corrugated metal new design.

More October 1, 1988 Chinese National Corporation NORINCO has contracted with Pakistan to build prototypes of the tank "Type 90-II», who had to undergo extensive testing. Thus up to 70% of component "90-II» were produced in Pakistan. In the future, buying a license for the production and mastering technology, Pakistani military factory of " Heavy Industries Taxila"began mass production of improved versions of the tank, the proper name" Al- Khalid "(see below). And experts NORINCO continued work on the remaining tanks "90-II» in order to create your own perspective MBT.








Option to set a new DZ similar tank type-99


Modifications: 
• "Type 90-II» (with ERA)

• «Al Khalid "(Pakistani modification" 90-II »)

Machines created on the basis of "Type 90-II»: no

*KEY FEATURES:*

Combat weight, kg

48,000

Crew.

3

Main dimensions , mm :


- The length of the body (with gun forward)

? (10350) ?

- Width

3372 ?

- Height

2200 ?

- Clearance

492 ?

- Base x track

?

Average ground pressure, kg / cm 2

?

Overcoming obstacles:


- Ditch m

2.7

- A wall, m

0.85

- Ford m

1.4

Armament (ammo, shots):


- 125-mm smoothbore 2A46M 
- 7.62-mm machine gun 
- 12.7-mm anti-aircraft gun W-85

1 (39) 
1 (3000) 
1 (500)

Angles vertical guidance deg.

-6 ... 14

Stabilizer arms

biplane

Loading mechanism

yes

Means setting dymzavesy

2x4 launchers, TDA

Type and make of the motor

diesel CV-12-1200 TCA "Condor" 
8-cylinder

Maximum power, hp. with .

1200

Specific power, hp / ton

25

Maximum speed, km / h:

70 ?

Cruising range, km

400

Reservations, mm :


- Forehead block ro

? ( Combined ).

- Board block ro

? + Screens

- Forehead tower

? ( Combined ).

- The side of the tower

?

- Roof

?

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## Aslan

I have a question for the experts, I am not that well versed with the details of the tank I will be honest. But I remember reading a while back that we were using some Ukranian parts on the tank, may be including the engine. Now with the situation as it is there, how does it effect our tank.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Khaqan Humayun

*AK is pride of Pakistan I have seen a video of Arjun Tank I'm going to post here Kindly tell me what is best in Our AK and in indian Arjun.



If any one who knows the tank kindly inform me about booth tanks. *


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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> fleetwide upgradation of AK to AK-1 standard is already in process.



what type of upgradation the new Ak is geting ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> what type of upgradation the new Ak is geting ?



DVD player,bigass woofers,revolving lights n a plasma... a mini bar too...

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## FunkyGen

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> DVD player,bigass woofers,revolving lights n a plasma... a mini bar too...


Crew comfort


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Aslan

@DESERT FIGHTER I posted a question earlier, seems to have gone unnoticed. Are we still importing engines from Ukrain for the AK's, and if we are what impact does the current situation has on it.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Aslan said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER I posted a question earlier, seems to have gone unnoticed. Are we still importing engines from Ukrain for the AK's, and if we are what impact does the current situation has on it.



Not sure bro .. But I think we probably import them from Ukraine... From feb 2013;
Ukraine to Deliver 110 Battle Tank Engines to Pakistan

Also I don't think it would be a problem even in future ..

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## razgriz19

Sorry if posted before, but i've never seen this amazing video of Al-khalid before
Mine Plow trials


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## fatman17



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## narcon

Al Khalid tank air condition


Dazzler said:


> Ukrainian tank expert Andrei Bt on Al Khalid.. though he is wrong about the engine which is not the CV-12 condor, rather the 6td-2



Indian Tank has 1400 HP engine.


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## FunkyGen

I have one question guys, in most of the videos of the Al Khalid I've seen, I've noticed that the gun barrel moves a lot considering the tank is supposed to be a hunter killer even when in motion, can somebody explain why is that? i mean how can the tank fire at it's target when the gun is pointing downwards....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 22946



Basic AK.. Old pic..!?


narcon said:


> Al Khalid tank air condition
> 
> 
> Indian Tank has 1400 HP engine.



AK has better power/weight ratio .. 44-46 tons with tweeked out 1200 HP engine.

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## narcon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Basic AK.. Old pic..!?
> 
> 
> AK has better power/weight ratio .. 44-46 tons with tweeked out 1200 HP engine.



How you tweak the engine HP?


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## Nishan_101

HMC can easily produce Engine for Railways(local), Tanks and APC, Trucks(local) and for Ship and submarines(local), just they need to do JV with Germany on it. I am sure we can start our own automotive industry.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The tank can certainly use some beefing up on Technology , machine gun above needs to get replaced with a robotic

Gatling gun and we need some anti missile defenses on the Tank, controlled from inside

I don't like how the Soldier has to come out to command the gun , and be exposed to deadly fire or sniper shot

Other then that an ideal Tank to squash Taliban under its weight


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## indiatester

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not sure bro .. But I think we probably import them from Ukraine... From feb 2013;
> Ukraine to Deliver 110 Battle Tank Engines to Pakistan
> 
> Also I don't think it would be a problem even in future ..



There were pro-Russian protests in Kharkiv today. That is one geopolitical risk that must be managed.


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## Nishan_101

HMC should do JV with Germany to produce different types of Diesel Engines...


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## Manticore

*Daksg Nakra, Kuala Lumpur* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
22 April 2014

Officials from Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) disclosed new information about the greatly anticipated Al Khalid-Improved (I) main battle tank (MBT) during the recent DSA 2014 exhibition held in Kuala Lumpur.

Brigadier Ghulam Murtaza Qureshi (rtd), HIT's director of budget, marketing and procurement, told _IHS Jane's_ that the development is being fast-tracked and the company plans to showcase the tank during the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar 2014 (IDEAS 2014) in Islamabad in December.

The development of the new MBT began earlier in the decade and Qureshi said it is around 50% complete. Some reports suggested it was being co-developed with China's NORINCO and was a version of China's MBT-3000.

(110 of 435 words)

HIT reveals new information on Al Khalid-I MBT - IHS Jane's 360

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## RAMPAGE

HIT is developing an RCWS according to MoD Year-book 2012-13

@DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler

I remember reading somewhere that a 3rd Generation Thermal Imager is also underdevelopment. any details about that ???

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## farhan_9909

RAMPAGE said:


> HIT is developing an RCWS according to MoD Year-book 2012-13
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler
> 
> I remember reading somewhere that a 3rd Generation Thermal Imager is also underdevelopment. any details about that ???




*We already have developed our own RCWS in 2011 by AARDIC which comes under HIT.(Google Mohafiz III and it is mounted on top of that)

*I believe they are rather talking about Sagem matis from france.

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## Bratva

Manticore said:


> *Daksg Nakra, Kuala Lumpur* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 22 April 2014
> 
> Officials from Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) disclosed new information about the greatly anticipated Al Khalid-Improved (I) main battle tank (MBT) during the recent DSA 2014 exhibition held in Kuala Lumpur.
> 
> Brigadier Ghulam Murtaza Qureshi (rtd), HIT's director of budget, marketing and procurement, told _IHS Jane's_ that the development is being fast-tracked and the company plans to showcase the tank during the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar 2014 (IDEAS 2014) in Islamabad in December.
> 
> The development of the new MBT began earlier in the decade and Qureshi said it is around 50% complete. Some reports suggested it was being co-developed with China's NORINCO and was a version of China's MBT-3000.
> 
> (110 of 435 words)
> 
> HIT reveals new information on Al Khalid-I MBT - IHS Jane's 360




Complete article




fatman17 said:


> *HIT reveals new information on Al Khalid-I MBT*
> 
> Author:*Daksg Nakra, Kuala Lumpur*
> Last posted:2014-04-23
> 
> Officials from Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) disclosed new information about the greatly anticipated Al Khalid-Improved (I) main battle tank (MBT) during the recent DSA 2014 exhibition held in Kuala Lumpur.
> 
> Brigadier Ghulam Murtaza Qureshi (rtd), HIT's director of budget, marketing and procurement, stated that the development is being fast-tracked and the company plans to showcase the tank during the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar 2014 (IDEAS 2014) in Islamabad in December.
> 
> The development of the new MBT began earlier in the decade and Qureshi said it is around 50% complete. Some reports suggested it was being co-developed with China's NORINCO and was a version of China's MBT-3000.
> 
> *Qureshi claimed this was incorrect and that the Al Khalid-I is an indigenous development of Pakistan's mainstay tank, the Al Khalid, which was jointly developed in the early 1990s with NORINCO (known in China as the MBT-2000) and commissioned in 2001.
> 
> The Pakistan Army's Armoured Corps operates about 420 Al Khalid MBTs, along with Al Zarrar (Type 59/59M), Type 69, Type 85 IIAP and T-80UD tanks. The Al Khalid-I will replace approximately 300 Type 85s and 320 T-80s, which are known to operate in semi-desert and desert areas of the country.
> 
> The existing Al Khalid is powered by a Ukrainian 6TD-2 power pack developing a maximum power of 1,200 bhp. It also features integrated battle management, auto transmission control, muzzle reference and active threat protection systems.*
> 
> *Qureshi added that the design concept of the Al Khalid-I is primarily based on further refining and improving mobility, firepower and protection. Initially, the design featured around 10 major changes over the Al Khalid hull, but due to rising costs and budgetary constraints, this has been reduced to six.*
> 
> *These include a new 1,500 bhp power pack to improve its power-to-weight ratio and a digital driver manual. The HIT official confirmed that it would retain the 125 mm smoothbore barrel. As of April 2014, trials are under way to finalise the new power pack. These details concur with comments at IDEAS 2012 by a senior official at Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Procurement who told said that an improved version would feature a more powerful diesel power pack, improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities.*
> 
> *HIT plans to complete trials of the Al Khalid-I with the Pakistani Army by the first quarter of 2015 and based on results, it is hoping to achieve low rate initial production by June 2015. HIT currently has the capability to roll out 20-40 Al Khalid MBTs a year, suggesting it will look to achieve a similar production schedule for the improved version.*
> 
> JDW

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## Dazzler

RAMPAGE said:


> HIT is developing an RCWS according to MoD Year-book 2012-13
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler
> 
> I remember reading somewhere that a 3rd Generation Thermal Imager is also underdevelopment. any details about that ???




it is being imported from france for Alkhalid-1, Sagem Matis thermal imager



farhan_9909 said:


> *We already have developed our own RCWS in 2011 by AARDIC which comes under HIT.(Google Mohafiz III and it is mounted on top of that)




RCWS of types for mbts and for apcs


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> it is being imported from france for Alkhalid-1, Sagem Matis thermal imager
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RCWS of types for mbts and for apcs



Any idea which type of Matis?

Imagers for diverse applications - Sagem


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> Any idea which type of Matis?
> 
> Imagers for diverse applications - Sagem



PM me


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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> PM me


Idhar batao na bhai !!!

Pretty please.





[/quote]


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## Dazzler

wo muje maar dengay

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## farhan_9909

Major Points from the Janes Source

Upgraded variant of Al khalid Tank

*420 Al khalid in service instead of earlier believed 300
*New variant to be made public in Ideas def expo this dec
*more than 50% development done.
*Will undergo Production onwards june 2015
*1500hp engine
*Digital Driver manual
*improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities.
*Further improvement of Firepower and Protection
*20-40 Upgraded variant of AK will be produced onwards the start of mass production

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## Bilal.

So the total run for Al-Khalid(and upgrades) might reach 450-500 total. After which we will start with Al-Khalid I.


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## farhan_9909

Bilal. said:


> So the total run for Al-Khalid(and upgrades) might reach 450-500 total.




Production of Al khalid Started in Nov 2001.If we consider 420 Till Dec 2013.or Almost 11years.

420/11Years=on average 38 Al khalid Per year

Addition of 2014 and 2015 will take the total tally to 500 Basic Al khalid.

The Article also Mention 300 Upgraded Al khalid to replace type 59.At Similar rate it will take 8years to produce 300 Upgraded Al khalid.

So it would be safe to Assume that by 2022-23 we will have 800 Al khalid in service(Basic might also be upgraded to the Current Upgrade level)

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## Bilal.

@farhan_9909 when I said al-Khalid I meant the basic and upgraded ones, al-Khalid 1 is almost a new tank, so I excluded it.
Btw prior al Khalid 1 there was another comparatively minor upgrade that included slightly higher firing rate and additional ammo capacity. @Dazzler may be able to throw some light on it.


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## farhan_9909

Bilal. said:


> @farhan_9909 when I said al-Khalid I meant the basic and upgraded ones, al-Khalid 1 is almost a new tank, so I excluded it.
> Btw prior al Khalid 1 there was another comparatively minor upgrade that included slightly higher firing rate and additional ammo capacity. @Dazzler may be able to throw some light on it.




I know,you must be talking about the Upgrade which most important external difference was Thickened side skirts.I believe in 2010 first mass produced of that upgrade was also revealed

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## Bilal.

farhan_9909 said:


> I know,you must be talking about the Upgrade which most important external difference was Thickened side skirts.I believe in 2010 first mass produced of that upgrade was also revealed



The word was that all basic Al Khalids would be upgraded to that standard, don't know if it happened or not.


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## farhan_9909

Bilal. said:


> The word was that all basic Al Khalids would be upgraded to that standard, don't know if it happened or not.



The only Mass produced Al khalid I or that upgraded Al khalid we have seen is when the General Visited HIT in feb 2010.None since than.


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## Black Eagle 90

Any Chances of KSA starting up local production of Al-Khalid or any other tanks from China, Russia or even M1A3 Tanks locally.


----------



## Pak Sar Zameen

this tank of pakistan army can give tough time to modern NATO and USA tanks .... Its such an amazing ride for our CAVALRY Men designed by Heavy industries Taxila.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 33996
> View attachment 33997
> View attachment 33998


Is it Al Khalid 1 and shape seems to be quite new


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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> Is it Al Khalid 1 and shape seems to be quite new



Same shape, image is not properly resized, as for AK-1 we heard AKs would be upgraded to AK 1.


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## RAMPAGE




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## Manticore

Heavy Industries Taxila - Brochure 2014

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## Manticore



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## Dazzler

Manticore said:


>



last pic is of alzarrar, mistake by hit IT team, many of them

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## nomi007

any info about block 2


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## Dr. Strangelove

nomi007 said:


> any info about block 2



what block 2 if u mean ak2 then it is going to have new ERA redesigned turret 1500 hp and the rest we will know when we see that beast


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## RAMPAGE

nomi007 said:


> any info about block 2





wasm95 said:


> what block 2 if u mean ak2 then it is going to have new ERA redesigned turret 1500 hp and the rest we will know when we see that beast


This is AK 2 most probably !!!

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## nomi007

RAMPAGE said:


> This is AK 2 most probably !!!


lagta nai hai par man lete hain sir

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## RAMPAGE

nomi007 said:


> lagta nai hai par man lete hain sir


What more do you want in AK 2 ???


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

RAMPAGE said:


> What more do you want in AK 2 ???



i want it nuclear powered with anti aircrafts missiles with flying capability

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> What more do you want in AK 2 ???


Why you think it's AK 2 ?


----------



## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Why you think it's AK 2 ?



bigger envine, bigger turret/ hull. was intended for AK2


----------



## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> bigger envine, bigger turret/ hull. was intended for AK2


Sir please post older pictures and. These new ones so I can see the difference by the way you also think it's Al Khalid 2

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## Manticore

old pics

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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> old pics


Yes sir it's actually changed sir as my knowledge off tank sucks please explain how new tank in pictures is better than older ones I mean how and what are major changes


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> how and what are major changes


AL-KHALID MBT gets VARTA APS and HIT will be manufacturing Textron TAPV. | Page 5


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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> old pics


@Manticore @Dazzler @RAMPAGE if the second picture is old one than sorry to disappoint you guys but the so called latest Tank Pictures are not of latest Tank its older Al Khalid shaped was already changed a little most probably new Tank will be shown in IDEX 2014 for first time

I am talking about the picture with kids


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> @Manticore @Dazzler @RAMPAGE if the second picture is old one than sorry to disappoint you guys but the so called latest Tank Pictures are not of latest Tank its older Al Khalid shaped was already changed a little most probably new Tank will be shown in IDEX 2014 for first time
> 
> I am talking about the picture with kids



the tankto be shown is most likeloy AK-2, not AK or AK-1, remember it has engine and other major changes


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## Kompromat

Dazzler said:


> the tankto be shown is most likeloy AK-2, not AK or AK-1, remember it has engine and other major changes



Do we have any new updates/tidbids on Ak-2?


----------



## Dazzler

Aeronaut said:


> Do we have any new updates/tidbids on Ak-2?



it is bigger, latest armour module, new ERA, some ammo is being tested, fcs and netcentric ability increased two fold. there is other stuff but later.

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## Desert Fox

Manticore said:


> old pics


Is it just me or is that a sad face on the tip of the Al-khalids main gun??

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> it is bigger, latest armour module, new ERA, some ammo is being tested, fcs and netcentric ability increased two fold. there is other stuff but later.



Would these upgrades be applied to older tanks?



Desert Fox said:


> Is it just me or is that a sad face on the tip of the Al-khalids main gun??



Forever alone face

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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> Would these upgrades be applied to older tanks?
> 
> 
> 
> Forever alone face



yes, apart of engine, other upgrades are likely to be apllied. i do feel the AK fleet is already ahead than rest in fire power, fcs+bms and netcent ability, armour so even non updated AK is a good tank that an hold its own.


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## FunkyGen

Bratva said:


> Forever alone face


That's because it got no export orders.... 
Or maybeee..... it needs a girlfriend.....


----------



## Kompromat

@Dazzler l How many AKs we'll ultimately have or they'll keep building as the other tanks go out of service?


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## Dazzler

Aeronaut said:


> @Dazzler l How many AKs we'll ultimately have or they'll keep building as the other tanks go out of service?



originally 600 were planned in all versions, batches


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## farhan_9909

Dazzler said:


> originally 600 were planned in all versions, batches



As 420 are in service since jan 2014 and AK2 production is also suppose to be started in late 2015 or early 2016.It would be safe to assume that upto 500 basic aks will be eventually produced


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## Bilal.

FunkyGen said:


> That's because it got no export orders....
> Or maybeee..... it needs a girlfriend.....



I think more like 325 built to date.


----------



## farhan_9909

Bilal. said:


> I think more like 325 built to date.



Official janes source's confirm 420 Built so far

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## Dazzler

FunkyGen said:


> That's because it got no export orders....
> Or maybeee..... it needs a girlfriend.....





although not ak, but mbt 2000 has been sold to atleast three countries


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> although not ak, but mbt 2000 has been sold to atleast three countries



May be chinese don't want competition or a clause which prohibits Pakistan from competing against chinese MBT-2000



Bilal. said:


> I think more like 325 built to date.




Ministry of Defence production yearly reports indicate 20-40 Al Khalid are built each year.


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## farhan_9909

Major Points from the Janes Source

Upgraded variant of Al khalid Tank
*
*420 Al khalid in service instead of earlier believed 300*
*New variant to be made public in Ideas def expo this dec
*more than 50% development done.
*Will undergo Production onwards june 2015
*1500hp engine
*Digital Driver manual
*improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities.
*Further improvement of Firepower and Protection
**20-40 Upgraded variant of AK will be produced onwards the start of mass production*

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## Bilal.

Bratva said:


> May be chinese don't want competition or a clause which prohibits Pakistan from competing against chinese MBT-2000
> 
> 
> Ministry of Defence production yearly reports indicate 20-40 Al Khalid are built each year.



How come engine orders from ukraine don't show up?


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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> May be chinese don't want competition or a clause which prohibits Pakistan from competing against chinese MBT-2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ministry of Defence production yearly reports indicate 20-40 Al Khalid are built each year.



contractual loopholes arecovered at ideas 2012, ak uses many different subsystems compared to mbt2000, hence price difference may also be a reason

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## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> How come engine orders from ukraine don't show up?



I think, MoDP covers domestic production. Engines are imported. It should be shown in MoD export/import reports which might be classified

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## Inception-06

on the photo - Mykhailo Borysiuk, General Designer of Armoured Vehicles and Artillery Systems and Head of SOE KMDB, (now retired), testing personally A-K tank

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## aliaselin

farhan_9909 said:


> Major Points from the Janes Source
> 
> Upgraded variant of Al khalid Tank
> **420 Al khalid in service instead of earlier believed 300*
> *New variant to be made public in Ideas def expo this dec
> *more than 50% development done.
> *Will undergo Production onwards june 2015
> *1500hp engine
> *Digital Driver manual
> *improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities.
> *Further improvement of Firepower and Protection
> **20-40 Upgraded variant of AK will be produced onwards the start of mass production*


Which Janes source, this one?
HIT reveals new information on Al Khalid-I MBT - IHS Jane's 360


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## kolinsky

Bratva said:


> May be chinese don't want competition or a clause which prohibits Pakistan from competing against chinese MBT-2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ministry of Defence production yearly reports indicate 20-40 Al Khalid are built each year.



ehhhhhhhhh, I think we don't care about the competing between MBT2000s. Additionally we are proud of Pakistan's success. 
If Pakistan can produce MBT2000 all by yourselves, have a good market, and good record in the battlefield. That is the biggest advertising for us. The value of adv. is far more valuable than sell a few tanks. It stands for good partnership and reliabilities, and we can gain more money in other products. 

It is really a pity that Pakistan did not take part in the tank biathlon in Russia this year. If MBT2000 wins, the biggest winner indeed is us, even bigger than T96A won the game.

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## nk2120132471

well,i think people who watched the tank biathlon video rather than the result only knew 96a already made a big adv.


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## kolinsky

Dazzler said:


> bigger envine, bigger turret/ hull. was intended for AK2


bigger turret is not good, that means even more bigger surface to be covered by armor. The weight increases much rapidly. 
Look at Arjun, not good design. Better is unmanned turret with electromagnetic gun and Integrated Electric Propulsion....


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## Dazzler

kolinsky said:


> bigger turret is not good, that means even more bigger surface to be covered by armor. The weight increases much rapidly.
> Look at Arjun, not good design. Better is unmanned turret with electromagnetic gun and Integrated Electric Propulsion....



alkhalid 2 is a systematic improvement over alkhalid in all domains, unlike arjun which is a different story.



kolinsky said:


> ehhhhhhhhh, I think we don't care about the competing between MBT2000s. Additionally we are proud of Pakistan's success.
> If Pakistan can produce MBT2000 all by yourselves, have a good market, and good record in the battlefield. That ips the biggest advertising for us. The value of adv. is far more valuable than sell a few tanks. It stands for good partnership and reliabilities, and we can gain more money in other products.
> 
> It is really a pity that Pakistan did not take part in the tank biathlon in Russia this year. If MBT2000 wins, the biggest winner indeed is us, even bigger than T96A won the game.



alkhalid was beyond the specifications set for biathlon, even russian t-72b3v was above.

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## nomi007



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## HRK

During 2013-2014

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## Manticore

https://i.imgur.com/FcldFFV.jpg

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## zaid butt

Manticore said:


> https://i.imgur.com/FcldFFV.jpg


these are old specifications of al khalid not al khalid 1 
this is from ideas 2012


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## Dazzler

zaid butt said:


> these are old specifications of al khalid not al khalid 1
> this is from ideas 2012



strange brochure, new fcs,fcc with multiprocessing as i said once, new bms, new head mirror sights, also notice misc section with new features such as torque converter which can increase engine output for faster acceleration at same thrust though. rest is same as alkhalid old spec.

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## Ray_of_Hope

The ammunition capacity has also been increased.i.e.for 12.7 mm gum,it has increased from 500 to 1000 bullets and for coaxial mg,it has increased from around 3000 to 4000 bullets.@dazzler


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## nomi007

we also need to develop our own engine for AL-KHALID tank


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> we also need to develop our own engine for AL-KHALID tank


too technical and expensive,not feasible

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## zaid butt

Dazzler said:


> strange brochure, new fcs,fcc with multiprocessing as i said once, new bms, new head mirror sights, also notice misc section with new features such as torque converter which can increase engine output for faster acceleration at same thrust though. rest is same as alkhalid old spec.



there is a tank in ideas 2014 named AL KHALID with same look and specification 

and this is written on the tank AL KHALID not al khalid 1
so there is no al khalid 1


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## farhan_9909

Al khalid I

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## Dazzler

zaid butt said:


> there is a tank in ideas 2014 named AL KHALID with same look and specification
> 
> and this is written on the tank AL KHALID not al khalid 1
> so there is no al khalid 1


check the above pics, think before posting next time.


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## Zarvan

zaid butt said:


> there is a tank in ideas 2014 named AL KHALID with same look and specification
> 
> and this is written on the tank AL KHALID not al khalid 1
> so there is no al khalid 1


Al Khalid 1 exists and will be shown for first time next year


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## zaid butt

Zarvan said:


> Al Khalid 1 exists and will be shown for first time next year


it will be 
i never said its not exist
i just say the tank in ideas is not al khalid 1


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## farhan_9909

Zarvan said:


> Al Khalid 1 exists and will be shown for first time next year


The picture i posted is of al khalid I,look closely at the side skirts


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## shaheenmissile

farhan_9909 said:


> The picture i posted is of al khalid I,look closely at the side skirts


Al-khalid one was first revealed in 2010. Its already in use with Pak Army. But 2010 and current versions look different. Same chassy but turret,sensors and side skirts upgraded.

Next year it will be Al-khalid 2 which is said to have totally different chassy.

It was disappointing that in IDEAS 2014 Not even AK*1 was displayed. It was older Al Khalid.


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## Zarvan

shaheenmissile said:


> Al-khalid one was first revealed in 2010. Its already in use with Pak Army. But 2010 and current versions look different. Same chassy but turret,sensors and side skirts upgraded.
> 
> Next year it will be Al-khalid 2 which is said to have totally different chassy.
> 
> It was disappointing that in IDEAS 2014 Not even AK*1 was displayed. It was older Al Khalid.


O Mr there is no AK-2 next year it would be AK-1 which is a new Tank with 1500 HP engine and new Gun and other changes


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## farhan_9909

Sub-systems of Al khalid

@Dazzler

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## Dazzler

farhan_9909 said:


> Sub-systems of Al khalid
> 
> @Dazzler




Fire control system, thermal imager, sensors, BMS,


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## VelocuR

Didn't see *Al-Khalid 2 progress* in IDEAS2014, is it possible to adjust front headlight change. example - awesome T-90's wink (on right side)?


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## WaLeEdK2

Al-Khalid needs a more modern design. Personally my favourite tank design is the Merkava.

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## skybolt



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## PakArmyFTW

VelocuR said:


> Didn't see *Al-Khalid 2 progress* in IDEAS2014, is it possible to adjust front headlight change. example - awesome T-90's wink (on right side)?


Wait what? Are you talking about those glowing "lights" on the T-90s turret? Those aren't lights, those are laser target designator and rangefinder disruptors. It's part of the Shtora APS 

Al-Khalid MBTs at a ceremony at HIT grounds Taxila on 23 September, 2004.

Source: Al-Khalid | Pakisatan Forces Picture and Video

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## VelocuR

@Horus, where is new Al-Khalid 2 supposed to be shown in IDEAS2014 event ? still missing


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## Super Falcon

Alkhalid and al khalid one are similar not any differenxe gun engine sensors are same how they are different tanks


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## Sulman Badshah

Super Falcon said:


> Alkhalid and al khalid one are similar not any differenxe gun engine sensors are same how they are different tanks



AORAK era armour

Upgraded variant with Ammunition capacity increased to 49 125 mm rounds, 1,500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds.

Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute),

Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems),

Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system. It is the most heavily weaponised tank by tonnage.

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## razgriz19

Lt Colonel Amir Ahmed Khan, HIT's deputy director, marketing and procurement, told AFP the company was now working on a deal to sell its Al-Khalid tanks to Saudi Arabia.

“We are in a very advanced stage of striking the deal with Saudi Arabia and already they have used the tanks on a trial basis,” Khan said.

Dec 07, 2014

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## A2Z

If the deal is signed would be a confidence booster for our defense industry. Bangladesh was also interested in Al-Khalid but later on purchased MTB-2000(Chinese version of Al-Khalid) from China.


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## Penguin

PakArmyFTW said:


> Wait what? Are you talking about those glowing "lights" on the T-90s turret? Those aren't lights, those are laser target designator and rangefinder disruptors. It's part of the Shtora APS



Shtora is an electro-optical active protection system (APS) suite for tanks, designed to disrupt the laser target designation and range finders of incoming atgw. It is an electro-optical jammer that disrupts semiautomatic command to line of sight antitank guided missiles, and laser rangefinders, and laser target desginators. It employs 2 /infrared (IR) 'dazzlers'.. These in effect are 'lights' , just not in the humanly visible spectrum.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

A2Z said:


> If the deal is signed would be a confidence booster for our defense industry. Bangladesh was also interested in Al-Khalid but later on purchased MTB-2000(Chinese version of Al-Khalid) from China.


profits were divided.


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## A2Z

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> profits were divided.


50-50?


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## RAMPAGE

razgriz19 said:


> Lt Colonel Amir Ahmed Khan, HIT's deputy director, marketing and procurement, told AFP the company was now working on a deal to sell its Al-Khalid tanks to Saudi Arabia.
> 
> “We are in a very advanced stage of striking the deal with Saudi Arabia and already they have used the tanks on a trial basis,” Khan said.
> 
> Dec 07, 2014


@al-Hasani


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## Yazp



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## munchkin

Is Saudi Arabia still buying Al Khalids?


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## zindapak

skybolt said:


>



these are old specifications of al khalid not al khalid 1 
this is from ideas 2012


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## Sardar Anees Abbasi

MashAllah My favourite tank


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## Fritz

Manticore said:


> Pakistani president pervez musharraf saidwhile giving first batch to army that these newly built "indigenous" mbt could be matched only by the german leopards. "with the highest power to weight ratio in the world, al-khalid has agility that can be matched only by the german leopard. "its ability to automatically track targets, similarly, is available only on the french leclerc. with hunter killer day-night sight and a state of the art fire control system, al-khalid is truly a world class tank,"
> tank was built within eight years at a cost of $20 million
> 
> *7) Engine , mobility , suspension, transmission*
> 
> 
> The production model Al-Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine. The 6TD-2 is a supercharged 6-cylinder engine delivering 1,200 horsepower (890 kW). The 2-stroke design, with the pistons arranged horizontally in an opposed piston configuration, makes the engine very compact and therefore more suitable for being fitted into relatively small vehicles such as the Al-Khalid MBT.[24]
> 
> 
> The engine is most likely turbocharged, not supercharged


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## Veroman

Can someone tell me that when Al-Khalid 2(MBT 3000) is coming out


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## Sulman Badshah

Veroman said:


> Can someone tell me that when Al-Khalid 2(MBT 3000) is coming out


Ideas 2016 ...


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## Zarvan



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## Andrei_bt

It is not AORAK ERA it is Varta modulators


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## Zarvan

Andrei_bt said:


> It is not AORAK ERA it is Varta modulators


@Sulman Badshah Please answer him 








*yes .. they new one is Modernised AK .. It is called as AK1 
the details i know are the tonnage is the same 
Ammunition capacity increased to 49 125 mm rounds, 1,500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds
identification and engagement range also increased 
digital driver panel,
IBMS,
side-skirts,
track pads,
Autoloader rate of fire increased from 6 round/minute to 9 round per minute
Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems),
Sagem third-generation thermal imagers upgraded from 2nd generation thermal imagers .. 
Improved NBC protection and air conditioning system*


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## Sulman Badshah

Protection system is Varta (from ukraine)


Andrei_bt said:


> AORAK ERA it is Varta modulators



Somebody wrote it as a Aorak armour plates


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## Super Falcon

Hope we get powerpack tank in 2016 major issues were army saying it canot dive in water where depth are more like rivers other wise all awsome details


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## Crackzz

I want to command this tank(definitely the improved version) Inshallah one day I will.

I really like the characteristics of this tank. Is the secondary gun manually controlled by hand?


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## RAMPAGE

Sulman Badshah said:


> Ideas 2016 ...


You sure, cuz we've heard nothing for quite some time?


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## Sulman Badshah

n


RAMPAGE said:


> You sure, cuz we've heard nothing for quite some time?


not sure about Ideas 16 either ... but heard about it

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## majid mehmood

i hope this helps
the nation newspaper
Sunday, 29 June, 2014



KARACHI - Pakistans Al Khalid Tank is widely being considered one of the most competent Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) in the global arms market. The Al Khalid II is said to have a new armor that has been tested to defeat all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. This special armour is a major technological breakthrough for Pakistan. The tank has received a new transmission and revised electronic turret control.
This was stated by Syed Muhammad Ali, the first certified military concept tank designer of Pakistan, while talking to The Nation.
He said that the Al Khalid II has a new Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and active threat-protection system, the latter being an upgrade from the passive system in the earlier model.
The tank is now perhaps the most heavily weaponized per tonnage of any tank, being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.
He said that Al-Khalid is modern battle tank developed by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).
Al Khalid consists of all the modern technologies required by latest generation tanks. Alkhalid is fitted with Ukranian engine that generated 1200 horse power. It has six forward automatic transmission. Its top speed is 72km/h. It weighs 47 tonnes.
Al-Khalid is operated by a three man crew; a driver, a gunner, and a commander.
Al-khalid consist of a self loading 125m smooth bore gun. It can also fire HEAT and APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) rounds. It automatically load, fire and eject the empty case.
Because of self loading gun, the crew number is reduced. The gun is equipped with a stabilizing system which provides accurate shot of the target even if the tank is moving.
It also comes with an imaging system which enables the crew members to track down various targets and engage them. It is also equipped with a 7.62mm co-axial machine gun and a 12.5mm anti-aircraft gun mounted above it.
In terms of sheer numbers, Forecast International expects Pakistans Al Khalid, the Type 98 of the Peoples Republic of China, and the Russian Federations T-90 (including Indias licensed T-90S production program) to continue to dominate the market.
In the international market for main battle tanks, the days of U.S. and European domination over new production are long gone.
Al Khalid is also equipped with night vision devices that enables it for combat at night time. It also has protection for NBC (Nuclear, Biological & chemical) warfare and thus the crew member would be safe in case of NBC fallout.
Al-Khalid can also be fitted with Explosives Reactive Armor (ERA).
Al-Khalid is currently in service with the Pakistan Army. Pakistan also export Al Khalid to various countries like Saudi-Arabia.

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## Woody Nerd

We should also produce large amounts of Drones to target enemy tanks and APCs in case of an armoured onslaught! I suppose 1 Burraq UAV can have the capability to target 3 tanks in one sortie, if we develop it a bit further with anti-tank laser guided missiles. One missile one tank, seems reasonable to me


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## araz

Woody Nerd said:


> We should also produce large amounts of Drones to target enemy tanks and APCs in case of an armoured onslaught! I suppose 1 Burraq UAV can have the capability to target 3 tanks in one sortie, if we develop it a bit further with anti-tank laser guided missiles. One missile one tank, seems reasonable to me


Other solutions maybe in hand and are being looked at. Perhaps this might translate into a new product or changes might be brought about in our own drones based on the concepts being studied. We need to be a bit patient.
A

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## Woody Nerd

araz said:


> Other solutions maybe in hand and are being looked at. Perhaps this might translate into a new product or changes might be brought about in our own drones based on the concepts being studied. We need to be a bit patient.
> A


If this is the official stance, then its very reassuring!
However, i wish we were not very overt in showing our capabilities here on internet or in the ISPR statements. Takes out the element of surprise since walls have ears...


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## A2Z

Woody Nerd said:


> We should also produce large amounts of Drones to target enemy tanks and APCs in case of an armoured onslaught! I suppose 1 Burraq UAV can have the capability to target 3 tanks in one sortie, if we develop it a bit further with anti-tank laser guided missiles. One missile one tank, seems reasonable to me


Our drone have already become nightmare for our enemies. You can not expect what we might reveal when the day comes since our armed forces like to maintain the element of surprise.


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## Dazzler

_*On 9thJune 2015*_, THALES OPTRONCIS & SHIBLI ELECTRONICS were awarded another major successive Contract for the Up gradation of 125mm Tanks i.e T 80 UD ,AL Khalid with Catherine Fire Control System.


This order thus establishes the Strong Customer satisfaction and confidence on the Industrial Organization, Product and Systems delivered by THALES & SHIBLI ELECTRONICS.




- See more at: Shibli | THALES OPTRONCIS & SHIBLI ELECTRONICS were awarded another major successive Contract

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## princefaisal

Total quantity of Al-Khalid Tanks in Pakistan Army = ?
How many Al-Khalid tanks are manufactured annually in Pakistan?


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## aliaselin

My new finding: MBT-3000 chassis shape looks the same as MBT-2000. They use inferior chassis to prevent the enemy shell compared to other Chinese built tank which use upper chassis










If we compare the two without reactive armor, then we can see:




If we compare 99 to 99A， the engineer has added one layer of armor to 99









Form the shape change we know that MBT-3000 turret has added one layer of armor to MBT-2000


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## Dazzler

aliaselin said:


> My new finding: MBT-3000 chassis shape looks the same as MBT-2000. They use inferior chassis to prevent the enemy shell compared to other Chinese built tank which use upper chassis
> View attachment 278488
> 
> View attachment 278489
> 
> 
> If we compare the two without reactive armor, then we can see:
> View attachment 278492
> 
> If we compare 99 to 99A， the engineer has added one layer of armor to 99
> View attachment 278493
> 
> View attachment 278494
> 
> 
> Form the shape change we know that MBT-3000 turret has added one layer of armor to MBT-2000



You provide your customers with an MBT having an inferior chassis? That's a shame really.


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## LowPost

Dazzler said:


> You provide your customers with an MBT having an inferior chassis? That's a shame really.



Nah pal, he means the tank on the image below the first one but I believe you understood the 'pun'


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## Dazzler

Arryn said:


> Nah pal, he means the tank on the image below the first one but I believe you understood the 'pun'



On a serious note, he compared the chassis in a crude way which is not how one should compare them.


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## aliaselin

Dazzler said:


> You provide your customers with an MBT having an inferior chassis? That's a shame really.


well, I mean MBT-2000/3000 put the major armor at the down part of the chassis, in Chinese it is called: 首下迎弹; for other Chinese tank it use:首上迎弹
eg：MBT-2000, MBT-3000 and M1A2 use "首下迎弹"
while T-90, type 99 and Challenger 2 use “首上迎弹”
This is a good way to trace the development route of the Chinese tank, and it hints that MBT-2000/3000 design concept is different from type 99; when we refer to the published materials, they are indeed developed by different chief engineers

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## Dazzler

aliaselin said:


> well, I mean MBT-2000/3000 put the major armor at the down part of the chassis, in Chinese it is called: 首下迎弹; for other Chinese tank it use:首上迎弹
> eg：MBT-2000, MBT-3000 and M1A2 use "首下迎弹"
> while T-90, type 99 and Challenger 2 use “首上迎弹”
> This is a good way to trace the development route of the Chinese tank, and it hints that MBT-2000/3000 design concept is different from type 99; when we refer to the published materials, they are indeed developed by different chief engineers



Even if what you said is the truth, what on earth does make the mbt2000/ 3000/ M1A2 series inferior to the latter? Afterall, its just a different design approach by different designers right?


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## sEoulman556

Not trying to sound arrogant but Pakistan needs to phase out it's Al-Zarrar tanks and focus on producing up to 1,000 Al-Khalid 2 tanks. Would be a very serious upgrade (no doubt sort of expensive for any country like Pakistan) for Pak Army for the long term and also keeping the money in Pakistan's defense industry.


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## SQ8

sEoulman556 said:


> Not trying to sound arrogant but Pakistan needs to phase out it's Al-Zarrar tanks and focus on producing up to 1,000 Al-Khalid 2 tanks. Would be a very serious upgrade (no doubt sort of expensive for any country like Pakistan) for Pak Army for the long term and also keeping the money in Pakistan's defense industry.


The Zarrar is to become the second line equivalent and as such is a good medium tank especially for operations in the northern boggy plains of Punjab. It can easily hold its own against the opposing sides "upgraded" T-72s and can play a sacrificial bullwark against their T-90s. What is needed is something along the lines of a Leopard or otherwise with a long range ATGM capability so that it can punch through or flank offensive armoured formations from the east. the Desert is the vulnerable spot for Pakistan.. the Punjab north is littered with Bunkers and ATGM positions on the Pakistani side that make any armoured push a diversionary sacrifice at best. ironically, India's defences are as such lacking on that front mainly due to their assumption that their holding corps will be sufficient to provide ad-hoc defences at any time.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> The Zarrar is to become the second line equivalent and as such is a good medium tank especially for operations in the northern boggy plains of Punjab. It can easily hold its own against the opposing sides "upgraded" T-72s and can play a sacrificial bullwark against their T-90s. What is needed is something along the lines of a Leopard or otherwise with a long range ATGM capability so that it can punch through or flank offensive armoured formations from the east. the Desert is the vulnerable spot for Pakistan.. the Punjab north is littered with Bunkers and ATGM positions on the Pakistani side that make any armoured push a diversionary sacrifice at best. ironically, India's defences are as such lacking on that front mainly due to their assumption that their holding corps will be sufficient to provide ad-hoc defences at any time.


We need to come up with AK 2 fast I think engine issue would be resolved soon thanks to South Korea as for ATGM we need to go for HJ-12 and also develop one with Turkey. Finally what is the status of AL HAIDER project if it exists ? @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7


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## araz

sEoulman556 said:


> Not trying to sound arrogant but Pakistan needs to phase out it's Al-Zarrar tanks and focus on producing up to 1,000 Al-Khalid 2 tanks. Would be a very serious upgrade (no doubt sort of expensive for any country like Pakistan) for Pak Army for the long term and also keeping the money in Pakistan's defense industry.


Thats 3 billion $ that we dont have in the presence of more dire need to replace a lot of ageing and expired equipment,
we dont have the money to replace either.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Manticore said:


> Pakistani president pervez musharraf saidwhile giving first batch to army that these newly built "indigenous" mbt could be matched only by the german leopards. "with the highest power to weight ratio in the world, al-khalid has agility that can be matched only by the german leopard. "its ability to automatically track targets, similarly, is available only on the french leclerc. with hunter killer day-night sight and a state of the art fire control system, al-khalid is truly a world class tank,"
> tank was built within eight years at a cost of $20 million
> 
> 
> 
> *Individual details*
> 
> *1) Night firing capability through Thermal Imagers.*
> 
> Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual magnification thermal imaging sight. The powerful fire control system computer processes all the firing information, which includes inputs from its ten sensors and is integrated to both sights.
> 
> *2) Auto-Tracking system.*
> 
> The automatic ammunition handling system, with 24 round ready-to-fire magazine further supplements the Hunter-Killer capability of the tank which can load at a rate of 8 rounds a minute. The presence of automatic target tracking system enables the tank to achieve a very high first round hit probability even while firing on a moving target while moving itself.
> 
> *3) 125mm (48 caliber) smooth bore, auto-frettaged and chrome plated gun which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and missiles.*
> 
> 
> *4) Laser range finders for commander and gunner sights.*
> 
> *
> 5) Fire control system and the FCS digital computer.*
> The ballistic computation time is less than one second. For accurate fire control, third generation gating facility has been provided. The result of such a modern fire control system is, routine first round hits on standard (8 ft x 8 ft) targets at ranges in excess of 2000 meters.
> The tank with its 125mm gun has a remarkably stable platform, which is provided by a combination of soft recoil and an excellent suspension.
> 
> Wrapped around the fire control system are the ergonomic crew positions and controls. The tank commander, gunner and driver can virtually reach all their controls with little movement.
> 
> *
> 6) Electro-Hydraulic power drives.*
> 
> *
> 7) Engine , mobility , suspension, transmission*
> 
> 
> The production model Al-Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine. The 6TD-2 is a supercharged 6-cylinder engine delivering 1,200 horsepower (890 kW). The 2-stroke design, with the pistons arranged horizontally in an opposed piston configuration, makes the engine very compact and therefore more suitable for being fitted into relatively small vehicles such as the Al-Khalid MBT.[24]
> 
> The 6TD-2 engine drives a French-designed hydro-mechanical automatic transmission, the SESM ESM500, also fitted to the Leclerc MBT. Capable of manual and fully automatic power-shifting, the transmission has 5 forward and 2 reverse speeds along with a braking system that incorporates carbon friction brakes and a secondary speed-retarding system. Gear shifts are controlled by a torque converter which is made more efficient by addition of an automatic lock-up clutch. There is also a mechanical back-up system for use in emergencies, able to shift 2 gears forward and reverse.
> 
> The suspension consists of torsion bars, hydraulic dampers and buffers, who's role is to provide a stable firing platform while the tank is moving at speed over rough terrain and as smooth a ride as possible to reduce crew fatigue. The tracks are mounted on six dual wheels with rubber tyres, a drive sprocket at the rear and an idler at the front. They are protected by side skirts, the forward sections of which can be fitted with explosive reactive armour, and track wear is reduced by replaceable rubber track pads.[3]
> 
> The Al-Khalid is fairly lightweight by Western standards, weighing 46 tonnes compared to the 60 tonne M1 Abrams and Leopard 2.[25] A power-to-weight ratio of 26.66 hp/tonne gives acceleration from 0 to 32 km/h (0 to 20 mph) in 10 seconds and a maximum speed of 70 km/h, the speed and agility also helping to improve survivability.
> 
> 
> *8) Armour.*
> 
> Al-Khalid has modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour, nuclear-biological-chemical defences, an effective thermal smoke generator, internal fire extinguisher and explosion-suppression system. The infra-red signature of the tank is reduced by infra-red reflective paint.[3] Al-Khalid 1 is equipped with a newly developed indigenous ERA which is not only light weight, but also more resistant to APFSDS, HEAT and HE-FS rounds. ERA is developed by Global Industries and Defense Solutions (GIDS) Corporation. [26] Al-Khalid is also equipped with an Active protection system known as VARTA (guards) which is a Ukrainian modification of Russian Shtora APS system. HIT is also working on an indigenous APS system for future batches especially for Al-Khalid 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite armour is a type of vehicle armour consisting of layers of different material such as metals, plastics, ceramics or air. Most composite armour are lighter than their all-metal equivalent, but instead occupy a larger volume for the same resistance to penetration. It is possible to design composite armour stronger, lighter and less voluminous than traditional armour, but the cost is often prohibitively high, restricting its use to especially vulnerable parts of a vehicle. Its primary purpose is to help defeat high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds.
> 
> 
> An element of explosive reactive armour consists of a sheet or slab of high explosive sandwiched between two plates, typically metal, called the reactive or dynamic elements. On attack by a penetrating weapon, the explosive detonates, forcibly driving the metal plates apart to damage the penetrator. Against a shaped charge, the projected plates disrupt the metallic jet penetrator, effectively providing a greater path-length of material to be penetrated. Against a long rod penetrator, the projected plates serve to deflect and break up the rod.
> 
> The disruption is attributed to two mechanisms. First, the moving plates change the effective velocity and angle of impact of the shaped charge jet, reducing the angle of incidence and increasing the effective jet velocity versus the plate element. Second, since the plates are angled compared to the usual impact direction of shaped charge warheads, as the plates move outwards the impact point on the plate moves over time, requiring the jet to cut through fresh plate material. This second effect significantly increases the effective plate thickness during the impact.
> 
> To be effective against kinetic energy projectiles, ERA must use much thicker and heavier plates and a correspondingly thicker explosive layer. Such "heavy ERA," such as the Soviet-developed Kontakt-5, can break apart a penetrating rod that is longer than the ERA is deep, again significantly reducing penetration capability.
> 
> Explosive reactive armour has been valued by the Soviet Union and its now-independent component states since the 1980s, and almost every tank in the eastern-European military inventory today has either been manufactured to use ERA or had ERA tiles added to it, including even the T-55 and T-62 tanks built forty to fifty years ago, but still used today by reserve units.
> 
> ERA tiles are used as add-on (or "appliqué") armour to the portions of an armoured fighting vehicle that are most likely to be hit, typically the front (glacis) of the hull and the front and sides of the turret. Their use requires that the vehicle itself be fairly heavily armoured to protect the vehicle and its crew from the exploding ERA; usually, ERA cannot be mounted on the less heavily armoured sides or rear of a vehicle.
> 
> A further complication to the use of ERA is the inherent danger to anybody near the tank when a plate detonates (disregarding that a HEAT warhead explosion would already present a great danger to anybody near the tank). Although ERA plates are intended only to bulge following detonation, the combined energy of the ERA explosive, coupled with the kinetic or explosive energy of the projectile, will frequently cause explosive fragmentation of the plate. The explosion of an ERA plate creates a significant amount of shrapnel, and bystanders are in grave danger of serious or fatal injury. As a result, infantry needs to operate some distance from vehicles protected by ERA in combined arms operations.



In 10 years Pakistan has only produced 500 AK tanks ,which is quite slow


----------



## -------

YousufSSG said:


> In 10 years Pakistan has only produced 500 AK tanks ,which is quite slow



Seems about right to me. 4 tanks per month seems to be the norm.


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Combat-Master said:


> Seems about right to me. 4 tanks per month seems to be the norm.



I think about 800 are produced but the army is not giving the original figures , and the sites are saying 650 + which doesn't seem to give the exact number


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER




----------



## T-55

Al-Khalid tank of Pakistan army shown to students.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Tipu7

Army's Budding Mansurul Haq: The Rush to Pay Extra $21m in French Deal

Guys, what you say about this???

''
*ISLAMABAD, June 30: For the first time in Pakistan Army’s history, intimate details of a multi-million dollar weapons deal have been leaked to the media by angry middle ranking officers who point to a massive scandal which has already left the Ministry of Defence and most of the senior officers in the GHQ wondering how bold and blatant some people can get.*

These officers have released all the details, including names, places, time and dates about the deal, raising a plethora of questions about the manner in which specialized defence equipment is being purchased in a blatantly roughshod manner, without any financial oversight. They say if no action was taken now, more details of many more scandals would also be made public including some personal scandals of Generals which many would not like.

According to an expert, who has studied Pakistan military purchases for years, such deals and over-payments are a very common occurrence in the Pakistan Army but what is new and different in this case is that the details have been leaked to the media for the first time while the deal is still in the process of being wrapped up.

“These officers cannot reconcile with the fact that an extra 21 million dollars are being paid to a French company in extra-ordinary haste and that too to buy inferior quality equipment already discarded by most countries, including Pakistan Army itself,” an E-Mail received by the _South Asia Tribune_ disclosed.

The details of the deal are bizarre and the two top most Army Generals under General Musharraf are being named as the interested parties who are forcing the violation of all rules and regulations. Both are due to retire in 2007 and one of them may survive to become the Army Chief as well.

“This violation is happening in the Army Headquarter right now and can possibly be stopped if General Musharraf or the helpless politicians occupying the posts of the Defence Minister or the Prime Minister, intervene and stop these Generals from making quick money at the expense of national defence and even country’s exports,” a concerned official said.

According to the details, a quick fire, Restricted Tender was floated on June 17, 2005 by the Director General of Defence Purchases seeking to buy 900 Thermal Image Sight (TIS) Fire Control System Units (Pix Above) for the main Pakistani battle tanks – Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, T-85 & T-80U.

Surprisingly for such a large purchase through Tender No: 1338/49/TISight/DGDP/PC-3B Dated 17th June, 2005, only four days were given for submission of bids. June 21 was set as the last date.

This was ostensibly done because the Weapons and Equipment Directorate (W&ED) of the Army GHQ in Rawalpindi, had already pre-qualified and short-listed two French companies, through a long process of tests, trials and final technical evaluation by the ITD-Directorate and I&E Directorates in the first week of June, 2005. So both the companies were practically ready to bid.

These companies were Sagem and Thales, the first being Europe's third largest defence and security electronics company, while Thales is France's largest military company. Adnan, son of late Maj. Gen. Jamsheed Malik represents Sagem in Pakistan while Thales is represented by a Colonel Wazir and Mr Shibli from F.A. Enterprises.

The tests and trials had included draft contract proposals, including commercial and technical offers, which were sought by the W&ED on May 24 and May 26, 2005 from these two companies. Both gave their offers and both were pre-qualified/short listed by GHQ.

Then the W&ED sent the files to DGDP for final purchase contract before June 30, 2005. DGDP floated the tender asking for bids in 4 days. Both Sagem and Thales separately submitted their technical and commercial offers on June 21 in the presence of DGDP and their own representatives.

First the technical offers were opened and evaluated by the technical departments, I&E and ITD Directorates of GHQ and after two hours both were declared technically qualified with 4 technical observations made on Sagem’s offer and 35 technical observations on Thales bid.

The most significant difference in the two offers was that Sagem bid for the Generation-3 (G-3) TIS Units while Thales offered the older Generation-2 (G-2). The Tender had asked for both types although G-2 is almost obsolete.

Why were G-2 units put on the tender is a big mystery because Pakistan Army has already been using the G-3 which are mounted on Al-Khalid tanks being manufactured by Pakistan for which Islamabad and the GHQ have been trying hard to secure export orders from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and other countries.

The angry Army officers say G-2 units were not being mounted on Al-Khalid tanks because of integration, stabilization and target identification problems. In all the demonstrations to potential foreign buyers, the GHQ has been displaying Al-Khalid tanks with G-3 units.

Side by side, the Pakistan Air Force has upgraded all the F-16, Mirage and Helicopter Gunships with G-3 units bought in 2001 or thereafter. These were purchased from Sagem in 1997. Sagem is also the main contractor in collaboration with Kamra Avionics Company. It introduced Kamra to the international export market for which General Musharraf is said to be very proud and keeps referring to.

All NATO armies and Russians are using G-3 because it is light weight, has no payload problems on air and is more reliable than G-2. In 2002 the Pakistan Army GHQ and Weapons and Equipment Directorate decided to install G-3 in all its main battle tanks.

Sagem was also offering transfer of technology which is included in the quoted price along with state-of-the-art Technical Ugradation Package to upgrade all the existing tanks from G-2 to G-3. That in itself promises a huge export market.

Thales, on the other hand, was not even a qualified supplier until early 2004 and only Sagem was in the run. Then came General Tariq Majeed, the Chief of General Staff with his background of Military Intelligence (MI). He ordered that Thales should also be included in trials and tests which continued until November last year. More trials were done in February/March this year until Thales was pre-qualified, although it was offering only G-2 Units.

The big envelopes of bids were opened on June 21, 2005 after the technical offers of both the companies were approved. Lo and Behold, Sagem had offered each G-3 TIS unit for 59,000 Euros or a total of 53.1 million Euros (US$64.5 million) for 900 units. The price of Thales was an unbelievable 78,000 for each G-2 unit or a total of 70.2 million Euros (US$85.3 million).

On Thursday June 23, 2005, Lt. Gen. Tariq Majeed, Chief of General Staff took the decision, with the knowledge of the Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, ruling out all technical and other objections to give the contract to Thales, the highest bidder, for its inferior G-2 equipment.

His decision was given on the last day of his work as Gen Majeed proceeded the very next day on an official trip abroad.

The decision stunned many who were involved with the project. There were so many angry officers who found it unpatriotic to keep quiet. Some of them believe the use of brute authority to reward a company which did not offer competitive technology has created a big problem for General Majeed who is being likened to Admiral Mansurul Haq of Pakistan Navy, the convicted former Navy Chief who made millions in submarine purchase deals and paid off a tiny percentage to get off the hook.

The Ministry of Defence has been kept totally out of the loop in the deal. All the files were kept under control of the GS Branch headed by General Majeed. But there were other Generals heading other Directorates involved, who had to agree.

These Officers and Directorates included Director General Armored Corps, Maj. General Saeedullah Khan, DG Weapons & Equipment Directorate Maj. Gen. Ejaz Bakhshi who was assisted by Brig. Zawwar Shah. The Military Operations Directorate under Major General Yousuf and his Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar also had to approve the purchase. The ITD Directorate was also involved.

The angry officers of the Army say all these Generals and Brigadiers were put under severe pressure to approve the deal. “Maj General Ejaz Bakhshi was under tons of pressure, so was Major Gen. Yousuf but Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar was so terrorized he was almost crying, but he had obey the orders to keep his job and secure a pension,” one officer recalled.

The reason is that General Majeed is the senior most General after the current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, who retires in October 2007. General Majeed has the outside chance of becoming the Army Chief as he is due to retire on December 30, 2007 and could thus be a possible replacement of General Musharraf, if he is not kicked out earlier.

The Editor of the_ South Asia Tribune_ contacted the Thales company through its given Email on its web site to confirm the deal. An Email sent to 'tosasales@fr.thalesgroup.com' asked Thales whether it had finally got the contract from Pakistan Army of 900 Thermal Imagers at Euro 78,000 per unit for Pakistan’s Main Battle Tanks.

Thales was also requested to confirm whether the TIS Units were of Catherine-QW type, whether the imagers were Generation-2 or Generation-3 and whether Transfer of Technology (ToT) was also part of the contract. No response was immediately available from the company.

The decision to buy G-2 units from Thales has many implications for the Army and Pakistan as well. Firstly Pakistan will be paying an extra US$21 million to buy inferior grade technology which is being phased out by all the armies the world over, including the Pakistan Army.

Secondly by putting in these old Generation units, Pakistan is seriously going to compromise its export potential for Al-Khalid and other tanks as all buyers are looking for the latest technology when they purchase weapons at such a scale.

Thirdly after a few years Pakistan will in any case have to upgrade these tanks and install the new technology which would again cost a bundle to the Army and the country.

Why all this blatant favoritism is being done by some Generals is obvious but no one is still ready to give out a guess of what will happen to the new Admiral Mansurul Haq in the making.

What it, nevertheless, proves is that General Musharraf has turned a totally blind eye on whatever his key position holders in GHQ may be doing because he wants them to stay happy, healthy, wealthy and content and not challenge his authority as the Army Chief, although he has crossed his retirement age years ago.''

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Army's Budding Mansurul Haq: The Rush to Pay Extra $21m in French Deal
> 
> Guys, what you say about this???
> 
> ''
> *ISLAMABAD, June 30: For the first time in Pakistan Army’s history, intimate details of a multi-million dollar weapons deal have been leaked to the media by angry middle ranking officers who point to a massive scandal which has already left the Ministry of Defence and most of the senior officers in the GHQ wondering how bold and blatant some people can get.*
> 
> These officers have released all the details, including names, places, time and dates about the deal, raising a plethora of questions about the manner in which specialized defence equipment is being purchased in a blatantly roughshod manner, without any financial oversight. They say if no action was taken now, more details of many more scandals would also be made public including some personal scandals of Generals which many would not like.
> 
> According to an expert, who has studied Pakistan military purchases for years, such deals and over-payments are a very common occurrence in the Pakistan Army but what is new and different in this case is that the details have been leaked to the media for the first time while the deal is still in the process of being wrapped up.
> 
> “These officers cannot reconcile with the fact that an extra 21 million dollars are being paid to a French company in extra-ordinary haste and that too to buy inferior quality equipment already discarded by most countries, including Pakistan Army itself,” an E-Mail received by the _South Asia Tribune_ disclosed.
> 
> The details of the deal are bizarre and the two top most Army Generals under General Musharraf are being named as the interested parties who are forcing the violation of all rules and regulations. Both are due to retire in 2007 and one of them may survive to become the Army Chief as well.
> 
> “This violation is happening in the Army Headquarter right now and can possibly be stopped if General Musharraf or the helpless politicians occupying the posts of the Defence Minister or the Prime Minister, intervene and stop these Generals from making quick money at the expense of national defence and even country’s exports,” a concerned official said.
> 
> According to the details, a quick fire, Restricted Tender was floated on June 17, 2005 by the Director General of Defence Purchases seeking to buy 900 Thermal Image Sight (TIS) Fire Control System Units (Pix Above) for the main Pakistani battle tanks – Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, T-85 & T-80U.
> 
> Surprisingly for such a large purchase through Tender No: 1338/49/TISight/DGDP/PC-3B Dated 17th June, 2005, only four days were given for submission of bids. June 21 was set as the last date.
> 
> This was ostensibly done because the Weapons and Equipment Directorate (W&ED) of the Army GHQ in Rawalpindi, had already pre-qualified and short-listed two French companies, through a long process of tests, trials and final technical evaluation by the ITD-Directorate and I&E Directorates in the first week of June, 2005. So both the companies were practically ready to bid.
> 
> These companies were Sagem and Thales, the first being Europe's third largest defence and security electronics company, while Thales is France's largest military company. Adnan, son of late Maj. Gen. Jamsheed Malik represents Sagem in Pakistan while Thales is represented by a Colonel Wazir and Mr Shibli from F.A. Enterprises.
> 
> The tests and trials had included draft contract proposals, including commercial and technical offers, which were sought by the W&ED on May 24 and May 26, 2005 from these two companies. Both gave their offers and both were pre-qualified/short listed by GHQ.
> 
> Then the W&ED sent the files to DGDP for final purchase contract before June 30, 2005. DGDP floated the tender asking for bids in 4 days. Both Sagem and Thales separately submitted their technical and commercial offers on June 21 in the presence of DGDP and their own representatives.
> 
> First the technical offers were opened and evaluated by the technical departments, I&E and ITD Directorates of GHQ and after two hours both were declared technically qualified with 4 technical observations made on Sagem’s offer and 35 technical observations on Thales bid.
> 
> The most significant difference in the two offers was that Sagem bid for the Generation-3 (G-3) TIS Units while Thales offered the older Generation-2 (G-2). The Tender had asked for both types although G-2 is almost obsolete.
> 
> Why were G-2 units put on the tender is a big mystery because Pakistan Army has already been using the G-3 which are mounted on Al-Khalid tanks being manufactured by Pakistan for which Islamabad and the GHQ have been trying hard to secure export orders from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and other countries.
> 
> The angry Army officers say G-2 units were not being mounted on Al-Khalid tanks because of integration, stabilization and target identification problems. In all the demonstrations to potential foreign buyers, the GHQ has been displaying Al-Khalid tanks with G-3 units.
> 
> Side by side, the Pakistan Air Force has upgraded all the F-16, Mirage and Helicopter Gunships with G-3 units bought in 2001 or thereafter. These were purchased from Sagem in 1997. Sagem is also the main contractor in collaboration with Kamra Avionics Company. It introduced Kamra to the international export market for which General Musharraf is said to be very proud and keeps referring to.
> 
> All NATO armies and Russians are using G-3 because it is light weight, has no payload problems on air and is more reliable than G-2. In 2002 the Pakistan Army GHQ and Weapons and Equipment Directorate decided to install G-3 in all its main battle tanks.
> 
> Sagem was also offering transfer of technology which is included in the quoted price along with state-of-the-art Technical Ugradation Package to upgrade all the existing tanks from G-2 to G-3. That in itself promises a huge export market.
> 
> Thales, on the other hand, was not even a qualified supplier until early 2004 and only Sagem was in the run. Then came General Tariq Majeed, the Chief of General Staff with his background of Military Intelligence (MI). He ordered that Thales should also be included in trials and tests which continued until November last year. More trials were done in February/March this year until Thales was pre-qualified, although it was offering only G-2 Units.
> 
> The big envelopes of bids were opened on June 21, 2005 after the technical offers of both the companies were approved. Lo and Behold, Sagem had offered each G-3 TIS unit for 59,000 Euros or a total of 53.1 million Euros (US$64.5 million) for 900 units. The price of Thales was an unbelievable 78,000 for each G-2 unit or a total of 70.2 million Euros (US$85.3 million).
> 
> On Thursday June 23, 2005, Lt. Gen. Tariq Majeed, Chief of General Staff took the decision, with the knowledge of the Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, ruling out all technical and other objections to give the contract to Thales, the highest bidder, for its inferior G-2 equipment.
> 
> His decision was given on the last day of his work as Gen Majeed proceeded the very next day on an official trip abroad.
> 
> The decision stunned many who were involved with the project. There were so many angry officers who found it unpatriotic to keep quiet. Some of them believe the use of brute authority to reward a company which did not offer competitive technology has created a big problem for General Majeed who is being likened to Admiral Mansurul Haq of Pakistan Navy, the convicted former Navy Chief who made millions in submarine purchase deals and paid off a tiny percentage to get off the hook.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence has been kept totally out of the loop in the deal. All the files were kept under control of the GS Branch headed by General Majeed. But there were other Generals heading other Directorates involved, who had to agree.
> 
> These Officers and Directorates included Director General Armored Corps, Maj. General Saeedullah Khan, DG Weapons & Equipment Directorate Maj. Gen. Ejaz Bakhshi who was assisted by Brig. Zawwar Shah. The Military Operations Directorate under Major General Yousuf and his Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar also had to approve the purchase. The ITD Directorate was also involved.
> 
> The angry officers of the Army say all these Generals and Brigadiers were put under severe pressure to approve the deal. “Maj General Ejaz Bakhshi was under tons of pressure, so was Major Gen. Yousuf but Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar was so terrorized he was almost crying, but he had obey the orders to keep his job and secure a pension,” one officer recalled.
> 
> The reason is that General Majeed is the senior most General after the current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, who retires in October 2007. General Majeed has the outside chance of becoming the Army Chief as he is due to retire on December 30, 2007 and could thus be a possible replacement of General Musharraf, if he is not kicked out earlier.
> 
> The Editor of the_ South Asia Tribune_ contacted the Thales company through its given Email on its web site to confirm the deal. An Email sent to 'tosasales@fr.thalesgroup.com' asked Thales whether it had finally got the contract from Pakistan Army of 900 Thermal Imagers at Euro 78,000 per unit for Pakistan’s Main Battle Tanks.
> 
> Thales was also requested to confirm whether the TIS Units were of Catherine-QW type, whether the imagers were Generation-2 or Generation-3 and whether Transfer of Technology (ToT) was also part of the contract. No response was immediately available from the company.
> 
> The decision to buy G-2 units from Thales has many implications for the Army and Pakistan as well. Firstly Pakistan will be paying an extra US$21 million to buy inferior grade technology which is being phased out by all the armies the world over, including the Pakistan Army.
> 
> Secondly by putting in these old Generation units, Pakistan is seriously going to compromise its export potential for Al-Khalid and other tanks as all buyers are looking for the latest technology when they purchase weapons at such a scale.
> 
> Thirdly after a few years Pakistan will in any case have to upgrade these tanks and install the new technology which would again cost a bundle to the Army and the country.
> 
> Why all this blatant favoritism is being done by some Generals is obvious but no one is still ready to give out a guess of what will happen to the new Admiral Mansurul Haq in the making.
> 
> What it, nevertheless, proves is that General Musharraf has turned a totally blind eye on whatever his key position holders in GHQ may be doing because he wants them to stay happy, healthy, wealthy and content and not challenge his authority as the Army Chief, although he has crossed his retirement age years ago.''


@Horus @Oscar @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler Please shed some light on this

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Inception-06

Tipu7 said:


> Army's Budding Mansurul Haq: The Rush to Pay Extra $21m in French Deal
> 
> Guys, what you say about this???
> 
> ''
> *ISLAMABAD, June 30: For the first time in Pakistan Army’s history, intimate details of a multi-million dollar weapons deal have been leaked to the media by angry middle ranking officers who point to a massive scandal which has already left the Ministry of Defence and most of the senior officers in the GHQ wondering how bold and blatant some people can get.*
> 
> These officers have released all the details, including names, places, time and dates about the deal, raising a plethora of questions about the manner in which specialized defence equipment is being purchased in a blatantly roughshod manner, without any financial oversight. They say if no action was taken now, more details of many more scandals would also be made public including some personal scandals of Generals which many would not like.
> 
> According to an expert, who has studied Pakistan military purchases for years, such deals and over-payments are a very common occurrence in the Pakistan Army but what is new and different in this case is that the details have been leaked to the media for the first time while the deal is still in the process of being wrapped up.
> 
> “These officers cannot reconcile with the fact that an extra 21 million dollars are being paid to a French company in extra-ordinary haste and that too to buy inferior quality equipment already discarded by most countries, including Pakistan Army itself,” an E-Mail received by the _South Asia Tribune_ disclosed.
> 
> The details of the deal are bizarre and the two top most Army Generals under General Musharraf are being named as the interested parties who are forcing the violation of all rules and regulations. Both are due to retire in 2007 and one of them may survive to become the Army Chief as well.
> 
> “This violation is happening in the Army Headquarter right now and can possibly be stopped if General Musharraf or the helpless politicians occupying the posts of the Defence Minister or the Prime Minister, intervene and stop these Generals from making quick money at the expense of national defence and even country’s exports,” a concerned official said.
> 
> According to the details, a quick fire, Restricted Tender was floated on June 17, 2005 by the Director General of Defence Purchases seeking to buy 900 Thermal Image Sight (TIS) Fire Control System Units (Pix Above) for the main Pakistani battle tanks – Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, T-85 & T-80U.
> 
> Surprisingly for such a large purchase through Tender No: 1338/49/TISight/DGDP/PC-3B Dated 17th June, 2005, only four days were given for submission of bids. June 21 was set as the last date.
> 
> This was ostensibly done because the Weapons and Equipment Directorate (W&ED) of the Army GHQ in Rawalpindi, had already pre-qualified and short-listed two French companies, through a long process of tests, trials and final technical evaluation by the ITD-Directorate and I&E Directorates in the first week of June, 2005. So both the companies were practically ready to bid.
> 
> These companies were Sagem and Thales, the first being Europe's third largest defence and security electronics company, while Thales is France's largest military company. Adnan, son of late Maj. Gen. Jamsheed Malik represents Sagem in Pakistan while Thales is represented by a Colonel Wazir and Mr Shibli from F.A. Enterprises.
> 
> The tests and trials had included draft contract proposals, including commercial and technical offers, which were sought by the W&ED on May 24 and May 26, 2005 from these two companies. Both gave their offers and both were pre-qualified/short listed by GHQ.
> 
> Then the W&ED sent the files to DGDP for final purchase contract before June 30, 2005. DGDP floated the tender asking for bids in 4 days. Both Sagem and Thales separately submitted their technical and commercial offers on June 21 in the presence of DGDP and their own representatives.
> 
> First the technical offers were opened and evaluated by the technical departments, I&E and ITD Directorates of GHQ and after two hours both were declared technically qualified with 4 technical observations made on Sagem’s offer and 35 technical observations on Thales bid.
> 
> The most significant difference in the two offers was that Sagem bid for the Generation-3 (G-3) TIS Units while Thales offered the older Generation-2 (G-2). The Tender had asked for both types although G-2 is almost obsolete.
> 
> Why were G-2 units put on the tender is a big mystery because Pakistan Army has already been using the G-3 which are mounted on Al-Khalid tanks being manufactured by Pakistan for which Islamabad and the GHQ have been trying hard to secure export orders from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and other countries.
> 
> The angry Army officers say G-2 units were not being mounted on Al-Khalid tanks because of integration, stabilization and target identification problems. In all the demonstrations to potential foreign buyers, the GHQ has been displaying Al-Khalid tanks with G-3 units.
> 
> Side by side, the Pakistan Air Force has upgraded all the F-16, Mirage and Helicopter Gunships with G-3 units bought in 2001 or thereafter. These were purchased from Sagem in 1997. Sagem is also the main contractor in collaboration with Kamra Avionics Company. It introduced Kamra to the international export market for which General Musharraf is said to be very proud and keeps referring to.
> 
> All NATO armies and Russians are using G-3 because it is light weight, has no payload problems on air and is more reliable than G-2. In 2002 the Pakistan Army GHQ and Weapons and Equipment Directorate decided to install G-3 in all its main battle tanks.
> 
> Sagem was also offering transfer of technology which is included in the quoted price along with state-of-the-art Technical Ugradation Package to upgrade all the existing tanks from G-2 to G-3. That in itself promises a huge export market.
> 
> Thales, on the other hand, was not even a qualified supplier until early 2004 and only Sagem was in the run. Then came General Tariq Majeed, the Chief of General Staff with his background of Military Intelligence (MI). He ordered that Thales should also be included in trials and tests which continued until November last year. More trials were done in February/March this year until Thales was pre-qualified, although it was offering only G-2 Units.
> 
> The big envelopes of bids were opened on June 21, 2005 after the technical offers of both the companies were approved. Lo and Behold, Sagem had offered each G-3 TIS unit for 59,000 Euros or a total of 53.1 million Euros (US$64.5 million) for 900 units. The price of Thales was an unbelievable 78,000 for each G-2 unit or a total of 70.2 million Euros (US$85.3 million).
> 
> On Thursday June 23, 2005, Lt. Gen. Tariq Majeed, Chief of General Staff took the decision, with the knowledge of the Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, ruling out all technical and other objections to give the contract to Thales, the highest bidder, for its inferior G-2 equipment.
> 
> His decision was given on the last day of his work as Gen Majeed proceeded the very next day on an official trip abroad.
> 
> The decision stunned many who were involved with the project. There were so many angry officers who found it unpatriotic to keep quiet. Some of them believe the use of brute authority to reward a company which did not offer competitive technology has created a big problem for General Majeed who is being likened to Admiral Mansurul Haq of Pakistan Navy, the convicted former Navy Chief who made millions in submarine purchase deals and paid off a tiny percentage to get off the hook.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence has been kept totally out of the loop in the deal. All the files were kept under control of the GS Branch headed by General Majeed. But there were other Generals heading other Directorates involved, who had to agree.
> 
> These Officers and Directorates included Director General Armored Corps, Maj. General Saeedullah Khan, DG Weapons & Equipment Directorate Maj. Gen. Ejaz Bakhshi who was assisted by Brig. Zawwar Shah. The Military Operations Directorate under Major General Yousuf and his Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar also had to approve the purchase. The ITD Directorate was also involved.
> 
> The angry officers of the Army say all these Generals and Brigadiers were put under severe pressure to approve the deal. “Maj General Ejaz Bakhshi was under tons of pressure, so was Major Gen. Yousuf but Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar was so terrorized he was almost crying, but he had obey the orders to keep his job and secure a pension,” one officer recalled.
> 
> The reason is that General Majeed is the senior most General after the current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, who retires in October 2007. General Majeed has the outside chance of becoming the Army Chief as he is due to retire on December 30, 2007 and could thus be a possible replacement of General Musharraf, if he is not kicked out earlier.
> 
> The Editor of the_ South Asia Tribune_ contacted the Thales company through its given Email on its web site to confirm the deal. An Email sent to 'tosasales@fr.thalesgroup.com' asked Thales whether it had finally got the contract from Pakistan Army of 900 Thermal Imagers at Euro 78,000 per unit for Pakistan’s Main Battle Tanks.
> 
> Thales was also requested to confirm whether the TIS Units were of Catherine-QW type, whether the imagers were Generation-2 or Generation-3 and whether Transfer of Technology (ToT) was also part of the contract. No response was immediately available from the company.
> 
> The decision to buy G-2 units from Thales has many implications for the Army and Pakistan as well. Firstly Pakistan will be paying an extra US$21 million to buy inferior grade technology which is being phased out by all the armies the world over, including the Pakistan Army.
> 
> Secondly by putting in these old Generation units, Pakistan is seriously going to compromise its export potential for Al-Khalid and other tanks as all buyers are looking for the latest technology when they purchase weapons at such a scale.
> 
> Thirdly after a few years Pakistan will in any case have to upgrade these tanks and install the new technology which would again cost a bundle to the Army and the country.
> 
> Why all this blatant favoritism is being done by some Generals is obvious but no one is still ready to give out a guess of what will happen to the new Admiral Mansurul Haq in the making.
> 
> What it, nevertheless, proves is that General Musharraf has turned a totally blind eye on whatever his key position holders in GHQ may be doing because he wants them to stay happy, healthy, wealthy and content and not challenge his authority as the Army Chief, although he has crossed his retirement age years ago.''




This was very interesting reading, Army should make the first step to show the civilians that they can clean their house from corruption otherwise that artcile shows only that corruption will remain everywhere in Pakistan, civil and military !

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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> @Horus @Oscar @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler Please shed some light on this



Its at least 12 years old, the deal was stopped by mushy at the last minute. This was when sagem matis thermals also found their way into Pakistani mbts.

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## IHK_PK

Tipu7 said:


> Army's Budding Mansurul Haq: The Rush to Pay Extra $21m in French Deal
> 
> Guys, what you say about this???
> 
> ''
> *ISLAMABAD, June 30: For the first time in Pakistan Army’s history, intimate details of a multi-million dollar weapons deal have been leaked to the media by angry middle ranking officers who point to a massive scandal which has already left the Ministry of Defence and most of the senior officers in the GHQ wondering how bold and blatant some people can get.*
> 
> These officers have released all the details, including names, places, time and dates about the deal, raising a plethora of questions about the manner in which specialized defence equipment is being purchased in a blatantly roughshod manner, without any financial oversight. They say if no action was taken now, more details of many more scandals would also be made public including some personal scandals of Generals which many would not like.
> 
> According to an expert, who has studied Pakistan military purchases for years, such deals and over-payments are a very common occurrence in the Pakistan Army but what is new and different in this case is that the details have been leaked to the media for the first time while the deal is still in the process of being wrapped up.
> 
> “These officers cannot reconcile with the fact that an extra 21 million dollars are being paid to a French company in extra-ordinary haste and that too to buy inferior quality equipment already discarded by most countries, including Pakistan Army itself,” an E-Mail received by the _South Asia Tribune_ disclosed.
> 
> The details of the deal are bizarre and the two top most Army Generals under General Musharraf are being named as the interested parties who are forcing the violation of all rules and regulations. Both are due to retire in 2007 and one of them may survive to become the Army Chief as well.
> 
> “This violation is happening in the Army Headquarter right now and can possibly be stopped if General Musharraf or the helpless politicians occupying the posts of the Defence Minister or the Prime Minister, intervene and stop these Generals from making quick money at the expense of national defence and even country’s exports,” a concerned official said.
> 
> According to the details, a quick fire, Restricted Tender was floated on June 17, 2005 by the Director General of Defence Purchases seeking to buy 900 Thermal Image Sight (TIS) Fire Control System Units (Pix Above) for the main Pakistani battle tanks – Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, T-85 & T-80U.
> 
> Surprisingly for such a large purchase through Tender No: 1338/49/TISight/DGDP/PC-3B Dated 17th June, 2005, only four days were given for submission of bids. June 21 was set as the last date.
> 
> This was ostensibly done because the Weapons and Equipment Directorate (W&ED) of the Army GHQ in Rawalpindi, had already pre-qualified and short-listed two French companies, through a long process of tests, trials and final technical evaluation by the ITD-Directorate and I&E Directorates in the first week of June, 2005. So both the companies were practically ready to bid.
> 
> These companies were Sagem and Thales, the first being Europe's third largest defence and security electronics company, while Thales is France's largest military company. Adnan, son of late Maj. Gen. Jamsheed Malik represents Sagem in Pakistan while Thales is represented by a Colonel Wazir and Mr Shibli from F.A. Enterprises.
> 
> The tests and trials had included draft contract proposals, including commercial and technical offers, which were sought by the W&ED on May 24 and May 26, 2005 from these two companies. Both gave their offers and both were pre-qualified/short listed by GHQ.
> 
> Then the W&ED sent the files to DGDP for final purchase contract before June 30, 2005. DGDP floated the tender asking for bids in 4 days. Both Sagem and Thales separately submitted their technical and commercial offers on June 21 in the presence of DGDP and their own representatives.
> 
> First the technical offers were opened and evaluated by the technical departments, I&E and ITD Directorates of GHQ and after two hours both were declared technically qualified with 4 technical observations made on Sagem’s offer and 35 technical observations on Thales bid.
> 
> The most significant difference in the two offers was that Sagem bid for the Generation-3 (G-3) TIS Units while Thales offered the older Generation-2 (G-2). The Tender had asked for both types although G-2 is almost obsolete.
> 
> Why were G-2 units put on the tender is a big mystery because Pakistan Army has already been using the G-3 which are mounted on Al-Khalid tanks being manufactured by Pakistan for which Islamabad and the GHQ have been trying hard to secure export orders from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and other countries.
> 
> The angry Army officers say G-2 units were not being mounted on Al-Khalid tanks because of integration, stabilization and target identification problems. In all the demonstrations to potential foreign buyers, the GHQ has been displaying Al-Khalid tanks with G-3 units.
> 
> Side by side, the Pakistan Air Force has upgraded all the F-16, Mirage and Helicopter Gunships with G-3 units bought in 2001 or thereafter. These were purchased from Sagem in 1997. Sagem is also the main contractor in collaboration with Kamra Avionics Company. It introduced Kamra to the international export market for which General Musharraf is said to be very proud and keeps referring to.
> 
> All NATO armies and Russians are using G-3 because it is light weight, has no payload problems on air and is more reliable than G-2. In 2002 the Pakistan Army GHQ and Weapons and Equipment Directorate decided to install G-3 in all its main battle tanks.
> 
> Sagem was also offering transfer of technology which is included in the quoted price along with state-of-the-art Technical Ugradation Package to upgrade all the existing tanks from G-2 to G-3. That in itself promises a huge export market.
> 
> Thales, on the other hand, was not even a qualified supplier until early 2004 and only Sagem was in the run. Then came General Tariq Majeed, the Chief of General Staff with his background of Military Intelligence (MI). He ordered that Thales should also be included in trials and tests which continued until November last year. More trials were done in February/March this year until Thales was pre-qualified, although it was offering only G-2 Units.
> 
> The big envelopes of bids were opened on June 21, 2005 after the technical offers of both the companies were approved. Lo and Behold, Sagem had offered each G-3 TIS unit for 59,000 Euros or a total of 53.1 million Euros (US$64.5 million) for 900 units. The price of Thales was an unbelievable 78,000 for each G-2 unit or a total of 70.2 million Euros (US$85.3 million).
> 
> On Thursday June 23, 2005, Lt. Gen. Tariq Majeed, Chief of General Staff took the decision, with the knowledge of the Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, ruling out all technical and other objections to give the contract to Thales, the highest bidder, for its inferior G-2 equipment.
> 
> His decision was given on the last day of his work as Gen Majeed proceeded the very next day on an official trip abroad.
> 
> The decision stunned many who were involved with the project. There were so many angry officers who found it unpatriotic to keep quiet. Some of them believe the use of brute authority to reward a company which did not offer competitive technology has created a big problem for General Majeed who is being likened to Admiral Mansurul Haq of Pakistan Navy, the convicted former Navy Chief who made millions in submarine purchase deals and paid off a tiny percentage to get off the hook.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence has been kept totally out of the loop in the deal. All the files were kept under control of the GS Branch headed by General Majeed. But there were other Generals heading other Directorates involved, who had to agree.
> 
> These Officers and Directorates included Director General Armored Corps, Maj. General Saeedullah Khan, DG Weapons & Equipment Directorate Maj. Gen. Ejaz Bakhshi who was assisted by Brig. Zawwar Shah. The Military Operations Directorate under Major General Yousuf and his Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar also had to approve the purchase. The ITD Directorate was also involved.
> 
> The angry officers of the Army say all these Generals and Brigadiers were put under severe pressure to approve the deal. “Maj General Ejaz Bakhshi was under tons of pressure, so was Major Gen. Yousuf but Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar was so terrorized he was almost crying, but he had obey the orders to keep his job and secure a pension,” one officer recalled.
> 
> The reason is that General Majeed is the senior most General after the current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, who retires in October 2007. General Majeed has the outside chance of becoming the Army Chief as he is due to retire on December 30, 2007 and could thus be a possible replacement of General Musharraf, if he is not kicked out earlier.
> 
> The Editor of the_ South Asia Tribune_ contacted the Thales company through its given Email on its web site to confirm the deal. An Email sent to 'tosasales@fr.thalesgroup.com' asked Thales whether it had finally got the contract from Pakistan Army of 900 Thermal Imagers at Euro 78,000 per unit for Pakistan’s Main Battle Tanks.
> 
> Thales was also requested to confirm whether the TIS Units were of Catherine-QW type, whether the imagers were Generation-2 or Generation-3 and whether Transfer of Technology (ToT) was also part of the contract. No response was immediately available from the company.
> 
> The decision to buy G-2 units from Thales has many implications for the Army and Pakistan as well. Firstly Pakistan will be paying an extra US$21 million to buy inferior grade technology which is being phased out by all the armies the world over, including the Pakistan Army.
> 
> Secondly by putting in these old Generation units, Pakistan is seriously going to compromise its export potential for Al-Khalid and other tanks as all buyers are looking for the latest technology when they purchase weapons at such a scale.
> 
> Thirdly after a few years Pakistan will in any case have to upgrade these tanks and install the new technology which would again cost a bundle to the Army and the country.
> 
> Why all this blatant favoritism is being done by some Generals is obvious but no one is still ready to give out a guess of what will happen to the new Admiral Mansurul Haq in the making.
> 
> What it, nevertheless, proves is that General Musharraf has turned a totally blind eye on whatever his key position holders in GHQ may be doing because he wants them to stay happy, healthy, wealthy and content and not challenge his authority as the Army Chief, although he has crossed his retirement age years ago.''






ohhh.... and he served at many key positions in army God knows what other CHAMATKARS he did there..... 
really i was not expecting this..... he should be taken to the task.....if found guilty.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 302126


I hope soon AL KHALID II pictures will be out. By the way by every passing day rumours of Altay are getting stronger and stronger.


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## Tipu7

@DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler @Ulla @fatman17 

What is status of Al Khalid production?
Apparently no Al Khalid is rolling out of HIT production line,
Is the production is seized to 300 Al Khalids?
Was it not planned to produce 600 AK untill 2017 and then upgrade them to AK1 standard?
Any solid info about number of Al Khalid tanks produced so far? Also Al Zarrar?
AK: 300
AZ: 600
?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler @Ulla @fatman17
> 
> What is status of Al Khalid production?
> Apparently no Al Khalid is rolling out of HIT production line,
> Is the production is seized to 300 Al Khalids?
> Was it not planned to produce 600 AK untill 2017 and then upgrade them to AK1 standard?
> Any solid info about number of Al Khalid tanks produced so far? Also Al Zarrar?
> AK: 300
> AZ: 600
> ?



2014-- 420+ produced + 50 on order.

Official stats from that year... I don't know who told you production is offline.

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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 2014-- 420+ produced + 50 on order.
> 
> Official stats from that year


I hope you are right and I am wrong ...................



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I don't know who told you production is offline.



Personal experience from Internship in HIT almost 4 years ago. (I was not interested in equipment at all at that time)
Almost 70% factory was in ''hibernation mode'' ........... only saw Construction of Main Guns in Foundries and as per Workers and Staff there, lack of funds and power ruined the production of Al Khalid.

Wajahat Ali Khan while interviewing Gen Hameed Gul also mentioned the fact that no tank has rooled out of production line of HIT in past two years (2010-12) ................

But I do hope I prove wrong. ......................

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> I hope you are right and I am wrong ...................
> 
> 
> 
> Personal experience from Internship in HIT almost 4 years ago. (I was not interested in equipment at all at that time)
> Almost 70% factory was in ''hibernation mode'' ........... only saw Construction of Main Guns in Foundries and as per Workers and Staff there, lack of funds and power ruined the production of Al Khalid.
> 
> Wajahat Ali Khan while interviewing Gen Hameed Gul also mentioned the fact that no tank has rooled out of production line of HIT in past two years (2010-12) ................
> 
> But I do hope I prove wrong. ......................


Well he most probably is right but we need to stop after 500 to 600 AL KHALID 1 and now focus should be AL KHALID II and AL HAIDER projects and if possible Altay.


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## Inception-06

Tipu7 said:


> I hope you are right and I am wrong ...................
> 
> 
> 
> Personal experience from Internship in HIT almost 4 years ago. (I was not interested in equipment at all at that time)
> Almost 70% factory was in ''hibernation mode'' ........... only saw Construction of Main Guns in Foundries and as per Workers and Staff there, lack of funds and power ruined the production of Al Khalid.
> 
> Wajahat Ali Khan while interviewing Gen Hameed Gul also mentioned the fact that no tank has rooled out of production line of HIT in past two years (2010-12) ................
> 
> But I do hope I prove wrong. ......................




I did hear and read the same for the period of 2010-2013.


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## Dazzler

Production is up n running.


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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> Production is up n running.


What?  The newest version?


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## usman jutt

You can't hit T-90 MBT easily because it has double tier protection system (composite armor+ERA) but after being hit by a single round of T-90 your crew will become chicken tandoori guys, we need heavy tank with strong armor and at least 1500 hp engine and high tech system. VT-4 or AL-KHALID can't be deployed at front line, kindly don't put your soldiers at risk.


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## Signalian

Lots of PA Tank inventory needs to be replaced, HIT wont stop production.

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## Dazzler

usman jutt said:


> You can't hit T-90 MBT easily because it has double tier protection system (composite armor+ERA) but after being hit by a single round of T-90 your crew will become chicken tandoori guys, we need heavy tank with strong armor and at least 1500 hp engine and high tech system. VT-4 or AL-KHALID can't be deployed at front line, kindly don't put your soldiers at risk.



Explain the reason as to why t-90 will penetrate and AK will not. Despite the fact the former has less thicker composite armor at the frontal arc, compared to AK, and it is made of mostly semi hardness steel, while AK is made of high hardened steel. 

And don't even discuss about ammo, its too funny and embarrassing to compare the two.

Heavy mbts will not work on soft sandy terrain, especially the desert and plain region. see how the arjun has been struggling on similar terrain.

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## 帅的一匹

Thailand royal army had signed a contract to buy 150 units of VT4 from China, T90 offer is rejected. Very good news.

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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> Thailand royal army had signed a contract to buy 150 units of VT4 from China, T90 offer is rejected. Very good news.



Wise decision, given the vast performance differences between the two, it was a given. Off course, Chinese had sweetened the deal by slashing prices.


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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> Wise decision, given the vast performance differences between the two, it was a given. Off course, Chinese had sweetened the deal by slashing prices.


PA army chief now is visiting China with new PLA marshal, maybe will be some surprise.


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## _NOBODY_

Dazzler said:


> Wise decision, given the vast performance differences between the two, it was a given. Off course, Chinese had sweetened the deal by slashing prices.


I thought that VT-4 tank was a cancelled project or is it Type 99 A2 ?
@DESERT FIGHTER @wanglaokan @Quwa


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## 帅的一匹

TheGreatOne said:


> I thought that VT-4 tank was a cancelled project or is it Type 99 A2 ?
> @DESERT FIGHTER @wanglaokan @Quwa


Modify the cooling fins to prevent the engine go over heat in desert? RTA inquired T99A2 back in year 2008, we turned down their request and they went for Oplot. We offered them MBT2000 with Ukranie engine, they prefer a Chinese made engine(we didn't have the permission to export back then). Now MBT3000 is almost equivalent to T99A2 in many expect even better(except armour), especially with a domestic 1300HP water cooling Diesel engine.



TheGreatOne said:


> I thought that VT-4 tank was a cancelled project or is it Type 99 A2 ?
> @DESERT FIGHTER @wanglaokan @Quwa


What is the status of Al Haider bidding? VT4 is out? Did PLA send in the MBT99A2 for test? Said Oplot and VT4 both failed in the desert test, then which tank PA is going for?

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## _NOBODY_

wanglaokan said:


> Modify the cooling fins to prevent the engine go over heat in desert? RTA inquired T99A2 back in year 2008, we turned down their request and they went for Oplot. We offered them MBT2000 with Ukranie engine, they prefer a Chinese made engine(we didn't have the permission to export back then). Now MBT3000 is almost equivalent to T99A2 in many expect even better(except armour), especially with a domestic 1300HP water cooling Diesel engine.
> 
> 
> What is the status of Al Haider bidding? VT4 is out? Did PLA send in the MBT99A2 for test? Said Oplot and VT4 both failed in the desert test, then which tank PA is going for?


I think PA should evaluate Type 99 A2. Altay has 120 mm smoothbore gun and we operate 125 mm smoothbore gun so unless Turkey is willing to sell Altay with 125 mm smoothbore gun we should evaluate it other wise PA should evaluate Type 99 A2. 
@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan


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## RAMPAGE

wanglaokan said:


> Modify the cooling fins to prevent the engine go over heat in desert? RTA inquired T99A2 back in year 2008, we turned down their request and they went for Oplot. We offered them MBT2000 with Ukranie engine, they prefer a Chinese made engine(we didn't have the permission to export back then). Now MBT3000 is almost equivalent to T99A2 in many expect even better(except armour), especially with a domestic 1300HP water cooling Diesel engine.
> 
> 
> What is the status of Al Haider bidding? VT4 is out? Did PLA send in the MBT99A2 for test? Said Oplot and VT4 both failed in the desert test, then which tank PA is going for?





TheGreatOne said:


> I think PA should evaluate Type 99 A2. Altay has 120 mm smoothbore gun and we operate 125 mm smoothbore gun so unless Turkey is willing to sell Altay with 125 mm smoothbore gun we should evaluate it other wise PA should evaluate Type 99 A2.
> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan


Zoom in and take a good look.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Zoom it and take a good look.
> 
> 
> View attachment 305635


Bro this picture is only shows AL KHALID II project exists but this picture is not of AL KHALID design or structure

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## farhan_9909

Pakistan is interested in South Korean K-2 MBT engine for upgradation of Al khalid engine

Source:Someone posted it on themess


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## AsifIjaz

Chinese will come back with a better or rectified engine. Oplot-M is not certain to come back. Russians may send a variant of their T99.


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## _NOBODY_

RAMPAGE said:


> Zoom in and take a good look.
> 
> 
> View attachment 305635


Al Khalid is a light MBT we need a heavy MBT as well.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheGreatOne said:


> Al Khalid is a light MBT we need a heavy MBT as well.



It's a medium weight tank .. 47 tons.. We don't need a heavy tank..

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## Zahoor Raja-Jani

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It's a medium weight tank .. 47 tons.. We don't need a heavy tank..


Exactly less fuel consumption, easy in logistics point of view, meant to move in deserts and every additional ton on tank will cost more fuel and movement in deserted area.

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## _NOBODY_

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It's a medium weight tank .. 47 tons.. We don't need a heavy tank..


We need them in few numbers. Medium MBTs can't sustain the amount damage that Heavy MBTs can.


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## Dazzler

COAS will discuss the type-99 as VT-4 IS OFF THE TABLE due to recent trials.

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## RAMPAGE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It's a medium weight tank .. 47 tons.. We don't need a heavy tank..


Why bother replying? Just saw his reply to your post .... Now you know.

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## alimobin memon

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...5/tank-gun-german-rheinmetall-130mm/85920592/ i think there is no need to buy altay or any tank which will cost more and additional headache what if we design our own 130 mm or with china or even better caliber gun i think alkhalid is more than enough


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## RPG

http://superpowerpakistan.com/pakis...made-tank-modern-technology-in-al-khalid-mbt/

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## Dazzler

hunting in the dark..

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## Dazzler

Early prototypes being tested...

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Early prototypes being tested...
> 
> 
> View attachment 335978
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335978
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335980
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335981
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335982


Is it AL KHALID 1 or AL KHALID II ?


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Is it AL KHALID 1 or AL KHALID II ?




baseline AK Prototype from the 90s

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## Max



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## Signalian

In 2003, UAE showed interest in buying Al-Khalid main Battle Tanks, Mushak trainers and various other defence items. *Pakistan exported Al-khalid MBTs* and other defence items to UAE in 2003 to onward.

Reference: Pakistan Intelligence, Security Activities & Operations Handbook, Int'l Business Publications, 2002, p-224

The reference is picked up from a 2002 year book and gives news of 2003.

Any information ?


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## Dazzler

Sarge said:


> In 2003, UAE showed interest in buying Al-Khalid main Battle Tanks, Mushak trainers and various other defence items. *Pakistan exported Al-khalid MBTs* and other defence items to UAE in 2003 to onward.
> 
> Reference: Pakistan Intelligence, Security Activities & Operations Handbook, Int'l Business Publications, 2002, p-224
> 
> The reference is picked up from a 2002 year book and gives news of 2003.
> 
> Any information ?



Never materialized. They went for upgrading M-84s instead which is rather sad as despite upgrades, they lack many capabilities that Alkhalid could offer them.

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## Signalian

Dazzler said:


> Never materialized. They went for upgrading M-84s instead which is rather sad as despite upgrades, they lack many capabilities that Alkhalid could offer them.



They got leclercs now.

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## Dazzler

Sarge said:


> They got leclercs now.



That was a separate order and came much later.


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## dalchini

Dazzler said:


> Early prototypes being tested...
> 
> 
> View attachment 335978
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335978
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335980
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335981
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 335982


What happens to front removable what i call skirts


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## AbdulRehman Qureshi

Sarge said:


> They got leclercs now.


 


Sarge said:


> They got leclercs now.


That was saprate Order


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## Arsalan

dalchini said:


> What happens to front removable what i call skirts


Removed since "removable" as you said!


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## dalchini

Arsalan said:


> Removed since "removable" as you said!


Too confusing why the first place they put those additional ERA V shape plates even Bangladesh operating without them.


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## Dazzler

dalchini said:


> Too confusing why the first place they put those additional ERA V shape plates even Bangladesh operating without them.



mate, the ones you see in the pic are not ERA, just composite plates for additional frontal protection. ERAs are usually installed prior to an emergency and the reason being the short shell life of the explosive material.

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## Arsalan

dalchini said:


> Too confusing why the first place they put those additional ERA V shape plates even Bangladesh operating without them.


Not ERA sir but i think @Dazzler have already given you all the details

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## Inception-06

*Tank Al-Khalid-I Special Report By: Mariam Nida
*
Tank Al Khalid-I is an upgraded variant of tank Al Khalid, the main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990s_*. It has an increased ammunition capacity of 49 125 mm rounds, 1, 500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds. It incorporates modifications made to the fire control system which is now a more advanced multi process fire control computer with up to 7 km effective identification range.







*_

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## Dazzler



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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 338401



Al-Zarrar Tank Block-1

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ulla said:


> Al-Zarrar Tank Block-1



Good eye... That is an AZ not AK.

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## Dazzler

Ulla said:


> Al-Zarrar Tank Block-1



Hence the bigger turret.




View attachment 338441

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Hence the bigger turret.
> 
> View attachment 338440
> View attachment 338441



@Dazzler what happen with the Type-1 Al-Zarrar, what was the technical function of the scirts around the turret (T-80UD has that also), I had read years ago about that, but I did forget to ask your opinion to this topic !

Would you support such Skirts for the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar Tank ?? 

Al-Zarrar Tank Type-1

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## Signalian



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## Dazzler

Ulla said:


> @Dazzler what happen with the Type-1 Al-Zarrar, what was the technical function of the scirts around the turret (T-80UD has that also), I had read years ago about that, but I did forget to ask your opinion to this topic !
> 
> Would you support such Skirts for the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar Tank ??
> 
> Al-Zarrar Tank Type-1
> View attachment 338445
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 338444



type-1 alzarrar turret offers less protection compared to the current version hence you see it even without ERA cassettes.

Rubber skirts protect against dust and reduce the RCS of the vehicle somewhat. No plans to use it with AK though

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## Dazzler

night targets..
















scanning targets at night..





















Gone fishing..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Honest question.

Is the gap between the Oplot-M or MBT-3000 and - let's say - a heavily upgraded al-Khalid with a redesigned turret, next-gen composite armour tech, 1,500 hp diesel engine, new transmission, and updated electronics significant? In fact, the Oplot and MBT-3000 are late model developments of the T-84 and MBT-2000, respectively (but with the above changes in engine, etc).

We literally own the MBT-2000 platform, so why couldn't we just make al-Khalid II into an Oplot-M/MBT-3000 competitor? Cost can't be a real reason if someone is floating the idea of buying another tank model that isn't that much of a developmental leap from the al-Khalid. With the right subsystems - and a re-designed turret and next-gen armour tech - we could make an equivalent.

If we want another tank model, then we should be aiming for an entirely distinct category, e.g. very heavy (Altay) or very light (or I daresay unmanned). Not sure why another 45-55-ton tank design was even being considered, except perhaps to confirm design aspirations for a future al-Khalid...

@Arsalan @That Guy @Dazzler

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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honest question.
> 
> Is the gap between the Oplot-M or MBT-3000 and - let's say - a heavily upgraded al-Khalid with a redesigned turret, next-gen composite armour tech, 1,500 hp diesel engine, new transmission, and updated electronics significant? In fact, the Oplot and MBT-3000 are late model developments of the T-84 and MBT-2000, respectively (but with the above changes in engine, etc).
> 
> We literally own the MBT-2000 platform, so why couldn't we just make al-Khalid II into an Oplot-M/MBT-3000 competitor? Cost can't be a real reason if someone is floating the idea of buying another tank model that isn't that much of a developmental leap from the al-Khalid. With the right subsystems - and a re-designed turret and next-gen armour tech - we could make an equivalent.
> 
> If we want another tank model, then we should be aiming for an entirely distinct category, e.g. very heavy (Altay) or very light (or I daresay unmanned). Not sure why another 45-55-ton tank design was even being considered, except perhaps to confirm design aspirations for a future al-Khalid...
> 
> @Arsalan @That Guy @Dazzler



Replacing obsolete fleet with relevant and state of the art MBTs including 59,69, and 85 II AP is the sole reason. Thats the theme behind Al Haider peoject. HIT cannot churn out enougb AKs to replace them on time.

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## Sulman Badshah

Dazzler said:


> night targets..
> 
> 
> View attachment 341927
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 341928
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scanning targets at night..
> 
> View attachment 341929
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 341930
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 341931
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gone fishing..
> 
> View attachment 341932


night engagement at 2 km ???

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## Dazzler

*Workload comparison between Al Khalid and M1A2 SEP Tank*


*3.1. Workload analysis of crew in Al-Khalid tank*
The workload of crew in Al-Khalid tank is calculated using the workload rating system based on IMPRINT (seeing Table 1).

Table 1.
Maximum workload of crew of Al-Khalid tank.

*Crew member* *Maximum workload
Task under high workload
Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
Commander 40 4.4 9.0 15.5 11.1
-
Answer and understand the information from crew;

-
Answer and understand the information from outside;

-
Control the auto loader;

-
Check the state of shooting.

Gunner 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
-
Surveillance;

-
Give driver the order when – shooting;

-
Choose working condition;

-
Answer and understand.

Driver 39.5 17.4 3.0 14.5 4.6
-
Observe and judge the forward terrain;

-
Monitor the instruments;

-
Control the driving direction of tank;

-
Look at the forward terrain.

Table options

It can be seen from Table 1 that the workloads of commander and driver are heavy, and their total workloads exceed 28-A crew member should endure the maximum workload in combat. In the process of firing on move, the driver needs to control the direction of tank, look at the forward terrain, keep the speed and driving direction tank, communicate with the commander and monitor the instruments at the same time. On the other hand, the workloads of commander's cognition and psychomotor are heavy, while the workload of vision is light; for the driver, the workloads of vision and cognition are heavy, while the workload of auditory sensation is light.

*3.2. Workload of crew in United States M1A2SEP V2 tank*
The United States M1A2SEP V2 is the newest version of M1A2. It integrates the System Enhancement Package (SEP), a.k.a the Army's Force XXI command and control system and the new technology achievements which were spirally developed from FCS. The maximum workload of each crew member is calculated based on the VACP model from IMPRINT, as listed in Table 2.

Table 2.
Maximum workload of crew of M1A2SEP V2 tank.

*Crew member* *Maximum workload
Tasks under high workload
Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
Commander 39.9 5.0 12.0 17.4 5.5
-
Answer and understand the information from crew;

-
Answer and understand the information from outside;

-
Check the state of shooting.

Loader 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
-
Surveillance;

-
Answer and understand;

Gunner 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
-
Surveillance;

-
Answer and understand.

Driver 38.30 14.1 0.0 19.4 4.8
-
Observe and judge the forward terrain;

-
Monitor the instruments;

-
Drive tank.

Table options

It can be seen from Table 2 that the workloads of commander and driver are heavy, too, and their limit workloads exceed 28. The heavy workload of commander concentrates in monitoring the battlefield, searching the targets, marking the situation map, and keeping communication with superior commanders and crew and cooperation. The workload of commander's cognition and auditory sensation is heavy. Driver endures the same maximum workload as in Al-Khalid tank, while M1A2SEP V2 tank has the ability to keep speed and driving direction. The workload of driver's vision and cognition is heavy. The workload of his auditory sensation, however, is 0. It is because that communication while driving will probably increase the workload of driver, and decrease the driving efficiency. The maximum workloads of gunner and loader are the same, and are significantly lower than those of commander and driver, but their cognition workloads are relatively heavy. Hence, gunner and loader can assist commander to undertake the task of monitoring the battlefield and searching the targets. So the commander can focus on communication and command.

*3.3. Workload analysis of crew in two-soldier crew tank and discussion of new technologies and their applications*
On the basis of the above analysis and calculation, the workload of tank crew is heavy during combat mission, especially for commander and driver. If the crew members are reduced to two, it will be difficult to finish the combat mission without the new technologies. On the other hand, one crew member is required to drive the two-soldier crew tank, the tasks, such as command, battlefield surveillance, target search and firing, must be completed by another member. The maximum workload of the crew in FCS two-soldier crew manned combat vehicle [4] is calculated based on the VACP model from IMPRINT, as shown in Table 3.

Table 3.
Maximum workload of crew in FCS two-soldier crew manned combat vehicle.

*Crew member* *Maximum workload
Tasks under high workload
Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
Gunner/commander 61 13 16 16 16
-
Answer and understand the information from driver;

-
Answer, check and understand the information from outside;

-
Shooting confirmation.

Driver 56 24 1 25 6
-
Observe and judge the forward terrain;

-
Monitor the instruments;

-
Look at the situation map;

-
Driving.

Table options

It can be seen from Table 3 that, compared with M1A2SEP V2, the workload of crew increases considerably because of the increased workloads of vision and psychomotor. The main reason is the increase in management task of situation map and the reduction of crew members.

It also shows that the workload of crew members in two-soldier crew tank is heavier than that in three-soldier crew tank. So the workload of crew members needs to be reduced by introducing the new technologies, and should not be higher than that in three-soldier crew tank at least; in other hand, the new functions, such as air surveillance, electro-optical countermeasures, electronic countermeasure and hard intercept ammo, must be automated.

The measures to reduce the workload of crew members include automatic target search, attributive judgment and automatic tracking; automatic calibration, one-button start, auxiliary driving (cruise, course keeping and obstacle avoidance); text-to-sound (TTS); situation map autoupdating, combat message auto-generation, etc. After introducing the new technologies, the workload of crew members in combat mode is calculated and analyzed based on IMPRINT, as listed in Table 4.

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## CHI RULES

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honest question.
> 
> Is the gap between the Oplot-M or MBT-3000 and - let's say - a heavily upgraded al-Khalid with a redesigned turret, next-gen composite armour tech, 1,500 hp diesel engine, new transmission, and updated electronics significant? In fact, the Oplot and MBT-3000 are late model developments of the T-84 and MBT-2000, respectively (but with the above changes in engine, etc).
> 
> We literally own the MBT-2000 platform, so why couldn't we just make al-Khalid II into an Oplot-M/MBT-3000 competitor? Cost can't be a real reason if someone is floating the idea of buying another tank model that isn't that much of a developmental leap from the al-Khalid. With the right subsystems - and a re-designed turret and next-gen armour tech - we could make an equivalent.
> 
> If we want another tank model, then we should be aiming for an entirely distinct category, e.g. very heavy (Altay) or very light (or I daresay unmanned). Not sure why another 45-55-ton tank design was even being considered, except perhaps to confirm design aspirations for a future al-Khalid...
> 
> @Arsalan @That Guy @Dazzler



One missing aspect is stealth features and low RCS which also required to be kept in mind as abouT Oplot M I have read that it's significantly stealthy apart from other next gen features, same is case with new developing designs.

Further a new choice should have top defense and effective hard kill system to counter new ATGMs.

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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> *Workload comparison between Al Khalid and M1A2 SEP Tank*
> 
> 
> *3.1. Workload analysis of crew in Al-Khalid tank*
> The workload of crew in Al-Khalid tank is calculated using the workload rating system based on IMPRINT (seeing Table 1).
> 
> Table 1.
> Maximum workload of crew of Al-Khalid tank.
> 
> *Crew member* *Maximum workload
> Task under high workload
> Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
> Commander 40 4.4 9.0 15.5 11.1
> -
> Answer and understand the information from crew;
> 
> -
> Answer and understand the information from outside;
> 
> -
> Control the auto loader;
> 
> -
> Check the state of shooting.
> 
> Gunner 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
> -
> Surveillance;
> 
> -
> Give driver the order when – shooting;
> 
> -
> Choose working condition;
> 
> -
> Answer and understand.
> 
> Driver 39.5 17.4 3.0 14.5 4.6
> -
> Observe and judge the forward terrain;
> 
> -
> Monitor the instruments;
> 
> -
> Control the driving direction of tank;
> 
> -
> Look at the forward terrain.
> 
> Table options
> 
> It can be seen from Table 1 that the workloads of commander and driver are heavy, and their total workloads exceed 28-A crew member should endure the maximum workload in combat. In the process of firing on move, the driver needs to control the direction of tank, look at the forward terrain, keep the speed and driving direction tank, communicate with the commander and monitor the instruments at the same time. On the other hand, the workloads of commander's cognition and psychomotor are heavy, while the workload of vision is light; for the driver, the workloads of vision and cognition are heavy, while the workload of auditory sensation is light.
> 
> *3.2. Workload of crew in United States M1A2SEP V2 tank*
> The United States M1A2SEP V2 is the newest version of M1A2. It integrates the System Enhancement Package (SEP), a.k.a the Army's Force XXI command and control system and the new technology achievements which were spirally developed from FCS. The maximum workload of each crew member is calculated based on the VACP model from IMPRINT, as listed in Table 2.
> 
> Table 2.
> Maximum workload of crew of M1A2SEP V2 tank.
> 
> *Crew member* *Maximum workload
> Tasks under high workload
> Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
> Commander 39.9 5.0 12.0 17.4 5.5
> -
> Answer and understand the information from crew;
> 
> -
> Answer and understand the information from outside;
> 
> -
> Check the state of shooting.
> 
> Loader 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
> -
> Surveillance;
> 
> -
> Answer and understand;
> 
> Gunner 28.70 6.0 6.0 12.1 4.6
> -
> Surveillance;
> 
> -
> Answer and understand.
> 
> Driver 38.30 14.1 0.0 19.4 4.8
> -
> Observe and judge the forward terrain;
> 
> -
> Monitor the instruments;
> 
> -
> Drive tank.
> 
> Table options
> 
> It can be seen from Table 2 that the workloads of commander and driver are heavy, too, and their limit workloads exceed 28. The heavy workload of commander concentrates in monitoring the battlefield, searching the targets, marking the situation map, and keeping communication with superior commanders and crew and cooperation. The workload of commander's cognition and auditory sensation is heavy. Driver endures the same maximum workload as in Al-Khalid tank, while M1A2SEP V2 tank has the ability to keep speed and driving direction. The workload of driver's vision and cognition is heavy. The workload of his auditory sensation, however, is 0. It is because that communication while driving will probably increase the workload of driver, and decrease the driving efficiency. The maximum workloads of gunner and loader are the same, and are significantly lower than those of commander and driver, but their cognition workloads are relatively heavy. Hence, gunner and loader can assist commander to undertake the task of monitoring the battlefield and searching the targets. So the commander can focus on communication and command.
> 
> *3.3. Workload analysis of crew in two-soldier crew tank and discussion of new technologies and their applications*
> On the basis of the above analysis and calculation, the workload of tank crew is heavy during combat mission, especially for commander and driver. If the crew members are reduced to two, it will be difficult to finish the combat mission without the new technologies. On the other hand, one crew member is required to drive the two-soldier crew tank, the tasks, such as command, battlefield surveillance, target search and firing, must be completed by another member. The maximum workload of the crew in FCS two-soldier crew manned combat vehicle [4] is calculated based on the VACP model from IMPRINT, as shown in Table 3.
> 
> Table 3.
> Maximum workload of crew in FCS two-soldier crew manned combat vehicle.
> 
> *Crew member* *Maximum workload
> Tasks under high workload
> Total workload* *Vision* *Auditory* *Cognition* *Psychomotor*
> Gunner/commander 61 13 16 16 16
> -
> Answer and understand the information from driver;
> 
> -
> Answer, check and understand the information from outside;
> 
> -
> Shooting confirmation.
> 
> Driver 56 24 1 25 6
> -
> Observe and judge the forward terrain;
> 
> -
> Monitor the instruments;
> 
> -
> Look at the situation map;
> 
> -
> Driving.
> 
> Table options
> 
> It can be seen from Table 3 that, compared with M1A2SEP V2, the workload of crew increases considerably because of the increased workloads of vision and psychomotor. The main reason is the increase in management task of situation map and the reduction of crew members.
> 
> It also shows that the workload of crew members in two-soldier crew tank is heavier than that in three-soldier crew tank. So the workload of crew members needs to be reduced by introducing the new technologies, and should not be higher than that in three-soldier crew tank at least; in other hand, the new functions, such as air surveillance, electro-optical countermeasures, electronic countermeasure and hard intercept ammo, must be automated.
> 
> The measures to reduce the workload of crew members include automatic target search, attributive judgment and automatic tracking; automatic calibration, one-button start, auxiliary driving (cruise, course keeping and obstacle avoidance); text-to-sound (TTS); situation map autoupdating, combat message auto-generation, etc. After introducing the new technologies, the workload of crew members in combat mode is calculated and analyzed based on IMPRINT, as listed in Table 4.



For those who are having difficulty to grasp the tables in its posted format .... attached is the screenshot





http://ac.els-cdn.com/S221491471300...t=1476901262_6efef2c86dc77896962ffeec3d907d53

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## Dazzler

naked turret without frontal composite armor..very interesting details here..

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## Danish saleem

keep modifying Al khalid, also start work on new platform as well.


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honest question.
> 
> Is the gap between the Oplot-M or MBT-3000 and - let's say - a heavily upgraded al-Khalid with a redesigned turret, next-gen composite armour tech, 1,500 hp diesel engine, new transmission, and updated electronics significant? In fact, the Oplot and MBT-3000 are late model developments of the T-84 and MBT-2000, respectively (but with the above changes in engine, etc).
> 
> We literally own the MBT-2000 platform, so why couldn't we just make al-Khalid II into an Oplot-M/MBT-3000 competitor? Cost can't be a real reason if someone is floating the idea of buying another tank model that isn't that much of a developmental leap from the al-Khalid. With the right subsystems - and a re-designed turret and next-gen armour tech - we could make an equivalent.
> 
> If we want another tank model, then we should be aiming for an entirely distinct category, e.g. very heavy (Altay) or very light (or I daresay unmanned). Not sure why another 45-55-ton tank design was even being considered, except perhaps to confirm design aspirations for a future al-Khalid...
> 
> @Arsalan @That Guy @Dazzler


Here are my two cents on this.
Just speculating, i wont be surprised if the PA and HIT are thinking EXACTLY on the same lines as you have pointed out. That is associating the future with a modernized version of Al-Khalid, a tank based on the same system. Now whether it is called AK-II or Haider or whatever, just leave that for a moment.

It is true that currently we are looking at new tanks options in the exact same category as the existing AK so what if the interest in all those tank systems is actually for your proposed project of AK modernization? What if buying a few of those tanks a deal sweetener, a mean to get hands on all those goodies that will actually help take AK to the next level. Things like engine, new Armour, all the subsystems!! 

In short, may be we are planning to explain AK and take it to the next level and all the activity we see related to selection of a new MBT is just a mean to the end.  I wont be the first time


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## Zarvan

Will somebody here would like to share AL KHALID II pics. I know prototype of AL KHALID II exists and few think tanks and mods on this forum also have those pictures so please share them. I think there is no need to hide them anymore.


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## Zulqarnain.Ali

I agree. Let us steal a peak at the prototype photos. This suspense gone on for too long.

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1798434540444262


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## Glavcom

Dear colleagues. Which one of you can answer the question. What made Al-Khalid tanks Mk.1 as the 2015 Pakistan?


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## Zarvan

Guys I am hearing is AK 2 has been completed and Pakistan is pretty much ready to reveal it. Now if isn't reveal at this IDEAS the pictures may come out soon so members who have good contacts with HIT should try to get the pictures and also details of AL KHALID II. Also I think we should re name AL KHALID II. My suggestions are either Bilal after Hazrat Bilal Habshi RA or Zubair after Hazrat Zubair RA. 

@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Guys I am hearing is AK 2 has been completed and Pakistan is pretty much ready to reveal it. Now if isn't reveal at this IDEAS the pictures may come out soon so members who have good contacts with HIT should try to get the pictures and also details of AL KHALID II. Also I think we should re name AL KHALID II. My suggestions are either Bilal after Hazrat Bilal Habshi RA or Zubair after Hazrat Zubair RA.
> 
> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER


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## WaLeEdK2

Dazzler said:


>



Been hearing @Zarvan say this the day I joined the forum  .


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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Been hearing @Zarvan say this the day I joined the forum  .


No this friends have visited HIT and seen it. It was first time HIT guys allowed people to see but no photos were allowed. The question is will it be shown at IDEAS or not because it's ready but when we want to bring it forward depends on HIT and Army. I am really hoping they come with it at this IDEAS but HIT has a great past of disappointing us at IDEAS.


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## Glavcom

Dear colleagues. 
Artillery systems for the production of Al-Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan produces itself or buys in China?


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## Zarvan

Glavcom said:


> Dear colleagues.
> Artillery systems for the production of Al-Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan produces itself or buys in China?


@Dazzler can answer you on this one


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## Dazzler

Glavcom said:


> Dear colleagues.
> Artillery systems for the production of Al-Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan produces itself or buys in China?



produced inhouse

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## Glavcom

Zarvan said:


> @Dazzler can answer you on this one


Thanks for the reply. Good. There are all the same data as the entire Al Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan has already made?


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## Glavcom

Who can explain to me. Why Pakistan buys tanks Mk.1 Al-Khalid tank engines in Ukraine, but not in China. What is the reason?


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## Great Janjua

Glavcom said:


> Who can explain to me. Why Pakistan buys tanks Mk.1 Al-Khalid tank engines in Ukraine, but not in China. What is the reason?



Ukrainian engines are much more efficient in my opinion and are more powerful mate

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## Dazzler

Glavcom said:


> Thanks for the reply. Good. There are all the same data as the entire Al Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan has already made?



Around 70% of the tank is made inhouse while rest is imported.

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## Glavcom

Who can say that Pakistan is not like the T-80UD "Birch"?


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## Beast

Great Janjua said:


> Ukrainian engines are much more efficient in my opinion and are more powerful mate


Few years ago yes but not now.

http://war.163.com/14/1111/08/AAONHC2G00011MTO.html

Digital automatic transmission gearbox V150 engine. It can be tailor from 1200HP to 1500HP according to customers need.

The latest VT-4 export to Thailand and possible Iraq army will be using this engine. Unlike traditon manual gear and shaft driven. You are basically driving a tank like a bus or car. Driving panel and automatic transmission.

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## T-55

Allegedly armor layout of Al-Khalid tank:





http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/11/chinese-tank-composite-armor.html

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## Dazzler

T-55 said:


> Allegedly armor layout of Al-Khalid tank:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/11/chinese-tank-composite-armor.html




As you said, it is alleged indeed.

A similar, but not same, layout was tested on one of the prototypes. Things have moved on since then. This is a very similar layout to the early Type-85II model, not even the IIAP that pakistan army operates. the Al khalid armour module is vastly different in both materials, thickness, and layers. 

The Al khalid-1 has slightly thicker armor module known to contain at least two new types of materials that were tested on Al khalid test tank during 2005-06. 

The research paper is mostly just a guess work based on very old chinese papers. In fact, the writer of this article, Militarysta, made a mess of the information i gave him. 


By the way, the frontal plates are not always ERA, in fact, they are composite plates.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Glavcom said:


> Dear colleagues.
> Artillery systems for the production of Al-Khalid tanks Mk.1 Pakistan produces itself or buys in China?


The blanks were bought from the French... by 2008...HIT produced an indigenous 125mm smoothbore... similiar to the KBA3.

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## Glavcom

Ukrainian T-84 BM Oplot in service with the Royal Thai Army

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## Dazzler

Glavcom said:


> Ukrainian T-84 BM Oplot in service with the Royal Thai Army



Its quite sad that you guys could not deliver the order in time. They went for the v t-4 instead which is quite a capable piece of hardware. 

Pakistan also has reservations about Malashev's ability to deliver the order if one is placed. 

Share your opinion on this.

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Its quite sad that you guys could not deliver the order in time. They went for the v t-4 instead which is quite a capable piece of hardware.
> 
> Pakistan also has reservations about Malashev's ability to deliver the order if one is placed.
> 
> Share your opinion on this.



http://defence-blog.com/army/thailand-received-the-next-batch-of-the-ukrainian-oplot-t-tanks.html

If they are not delivering on time and Thialand is going for VT 4 than what is going on here. Why Thiland just got second batch of OPLOT M.


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## Beast

Dazzler said:


> Its quite sad that you guys could not deliver the order in time. They went for the v t-4 instead which is quite a capable piece of hardware.
> 
> Pakistan also has reservations about Malashev's ability to deliver the order if one is placed.
> 
> Share your opinion on this.


Thai view VT-4 more superior than Ukraine OPLOT M and go for it, same as Iraq army.


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## Zarvan

Glavcom said:


> Ukrainian T-84 BM Oplot in service with the Royal Thai Army



I hope we would see it in Pakistan service soon and made in Pakistan.

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## Manticore

https://defence.pk/threads/t-80-and-t-84-main-battle-tanks-information-pool.268820/page-12


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Its quite sad that you guys could not deliver the order in time. They went for the v t-4 instead which is quite a capable piece of hardware.
> 
> Pakistan also has reservations about Malashev's ability to deliver the order if one is placed.
> 
> Share your opinion on this.







If you look carefully and watch this program carefully you would notice there are three Tanks on display at HIT stall. Two are AK 1 and AK versions. And than when the Colonel moves to show protector to host there is another Tank visible at the back which camera also shows for few seconds. Which Tank is that ? You can watch about HIT stall after 20th minute 
@DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Dazzler @Manticore


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> If you look carefully and watch this program carefully you would notice there are three Tanks on display at HIT stall. Two are AK 1 and AK versions. And than when the Colonel moves to show protector to host there is another Tank visible at the back which camera also shows for few seconds. Which Tank is that ? You can watch about HIT stall after 20th minute
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Dazzler @Manticore



Barri jaldi pata chala aap ko... HIT brochures and website itself is listing both the variants..


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Barri jaldi pata chala aap ko... HIT brochures and website itself is listing both the variants..


Bro there is a third Tank on display also I am talking about that one. I am not talking about two variants AK and AK 1. There is a third Tank on display that is not Al Zarrar neither is AK.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> If you look carefully and watch this program carefully you would notice there are three Tanks on display at HIT stall. Two are AK 1 and AK versions. And than when the Colonel moves to show protector to host there is another Tank visible at the back which camera also shows for few seconds. Which Tank is that ? You can watch about HIT stall after 20th minute
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Dazzler @Manticore


'Take a screenshot..

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## Zarvan

The one behind Talha APC I don't think that is Al Zarrar. @DESERT FIGHTER


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> The one behind Talha APC I don't think that is Al Zarrar. @DESERT FIGHTER




its Alzarrar

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> its Alzarrar


I am not doubting you Sir but a friend is saying that AK 2 is saying this which is making me confused

Al-Khalid Tank ...
Zarvan Bin Sajid AK-1 'll be inducted pretty Soon having Same Specs like AK with Integrated Control of top mounted gun from inside Tank & AK-2 is still under R&D process.
#Ideas2016






But another friend says his cousin visited HIT and was shown AK 2 and also sat in it. But was not allowed to take pictures. He went there with some relative who is military Officer.That is why I am seriously confused now !!!!





By the way this is showing Al ZARRAR. That one is not Al Zarrar Sir. 

@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> By the way this is showing Al ZARRAR. That one is not Al Zarrar Sir.
> 
> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER



count the roadwheels.


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> count the roadwheels.


https://jang.com.pk/latest/220112-pakistan-introduces-latest-version-of-alkhalidoon-tank-at-ideas

According to Jang Pakistan introduced latest version of AL KHALID called AL KHALID 1 at IDEAS 2016


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## Fieldmarshal

Their is no such thing as AK II at this point in time.
Right now HIT has started low rate production of AK I. till the time the tank factory is fully upgraded

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## Hindustani78

First Published: Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 16:45 
Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer

The Minister also announced that another agreement was signed with Ukraine for the upgradation of 200 al-Khalid-1 tanks. 

The Al-Khalid or "The Immortal Tank", is a main battle tank developed in a joint venture between China and Pakistan in the 1990s. It is powered by a Ukrainian diesel engine.

Talking to media, Tanveer said Ukraine defence industry is one of the most advanced in the world, which also produced battle tanks for the Russian army.

IANS


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Fieldmarshal said:


> Their is no such thing as AK II at this point in time.
> Right now HIT has started low rate production of AK I. till the time the tank factory is fully upgraded



Confirmed by HIT... Its under development.. improved protection and 1500hp engine...


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## -------

Aselsan offering full electronics package for Al-Khalid II.

3:50

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## Zarvan



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## HRK

Combat-Master said:


> Aselsan offering full electronics package for Al-Khalid II.
> 
> 3:50



it also confirm the ASELSAN pod integration with JF-17, more importantly it will be in our inventory 'within this year'

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## Zarvan

HRK said:


> it also confirm the ASELSAN pod integration with JF-17, more importantly it will be in our inventory 'within this year'


Turkish company are making some serious stuff. From night vision and targeting pod to MRL which are equipped with guided rockets. Also Anti Tank Missiles and APC and IFV. We have great potential and should get most weapons with TOT. Only than HIT and other companies can get there hands on latest technology and experience to make them and get rid of upgrading old stuff over and over again.


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## Dazzler

Fieldmarshal said:


> Their is no such thing as AK II at this point in time.
> Right now HIT has started low rate production of AK I. till the time the tank factory is fully upgraded



yes there is.

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## Manticore



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## Dazzler

For those who may think that alkhalid has less protection, read this.

The composite protection block is around 550-620mm

Back plate of the composite module is between 150-200mm.

AORAK ERA or external composite layers add another 150-300mm.

Thats almost 1150mm frontal protection from APFSDS round only. For HEAT rounds, it goes around 1250-1300mm.

A more than decent protection against any modern antitank threat being used in the world. This includes both 125 and 120mm caliber ammo.

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## ahsanhaider

Al Khalid Tank Documentary ! MUST WATCH ( By international observers), one of the best Tanks in the world

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## Glavcom



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## mzeeshanfahd

Dazzler said:


> Its quite sad that you guys could not deliver the order in time. They went for the v t-4 instead which is quite a capable piece of hardware.
> 
> Pakistan also has reservations about Malashev's ability to deliver the order if one is placed.
> 
> Share your opinion on this.



I kind of know a little bit just want to confirm ....... whats the notion with "in time" .... I mean to say whats the hurry?


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## Henry ME 95

http://www.armyrecognition.com/idea...of_al_khalid_2_main_battle_tank_12911165.html
At IDEAS 2016, the Colonel Rizwan Rasul from Heavy Industries Taxila has announced the development of a new version of the Pakistani-made main battle tank (MBT) Al-Khalid. Currently the Al-Khalid 1, the second generation of this tank is the backbone of the Pakistani Armed Forces.
According our exclusive video interview with the Colonel Rizwan Rasul, Director Budget, Marketing & Procurement for Heavy Industries Taxila, the upgraded main battle tank Al Khalid 2 will become one of the most modern main battle tank available in the military market offering high mobility, more firepower and protection compared to the current version of the Al Khalid.
The new Al-Khalid 2 will be motorized with a more powerful diesel engine developing 1,500 hp. to replace the current Ukrainian-made 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB).
The new Al-Khalid will receive a new armour package to increase protection against the new tank ammunition and anti-tank guided missile and rockets. The Al Khalid 1 is protected with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) bricks for added protection. ERA bricks cover the turret front, roof, sides and hull glacis.
The Al-Kalid 2 armour package could include an improved armour protection over the frontal arc, sides and turret. Slat armour could be used to complete the new armour package, which is now implemented to many new combat vehicles designed to protect against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks especially during combat in urban zones.
The Turkish Company Aselsan also offers its experience in the upgrade of main battle tank to fitted the Al-Khalid 2 MBT with latest generation of electronic systems, fire control, electro-optic systems and communication.
According, the Colonel Rizwan Rasul the Al Khalid 2 will keep the same armament which includes a 125 mm smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks ATGM (AT-11 Sniper, produced in China under license). The standard 12.7mm machine gun mounted on the turret could be replaced by a remotely operated weapon station.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Henry ME 95 said:


> http://www.armyrecognition.com/idea...of_al_khalid_2_main_battle_tank_12911165.html
> At IDEAS 2016, the Colonel Rizwan Rasul from Heavy Industries Taxila has announced the development of a new version of the Pakistani-made main battle tank (MBT) Al-Khalid. Currently the Al-Khalid 1, the second generation of this tank is the backbone of the Pakistani Armed Forces.
> According our exclusive video interview with the Colonel Rizwan Rasul, Director Budget, Marketing & Procurement for Heavy Industries Taxila, the upgraded main battle tank Al Khalid 2 will become one of the most modern main battle tank available in the military market offering high mobility, more firepower and protection compared to the current version of the Al Khalid.
> The new Al-Khalid 2 will be motorized with a more powerful diesel engine developing 1,500 hp. to replace the current Ukrainian-made 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB).
> The new Al-Khalid will receive a new armour package to increase protection against the new tank ammunition and anti-tank guided missile and rockets. The Al Khalid 1 is protected with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) bricks for added protection. ERA bricks cover the turret front, roof, sides and hull glacis.
> The Al-Kalid 2 armour package could include an improved armour protection over the frontal arc, sides and turret. Slat armour could be used to complete the new armour package, which is now implemented to many new combat vehicles designed to protect against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks especially during combat in urban zones.
> The Turkish Company Aselsan also offers its experience in the upgrade of main battle tank to fitted the Al-Khalid 2 MBT with latest generation of electronic systems, fire control, electro-optic systems and communication.
> According, the Colonel Rizwan Rasul the Al Khalid 2 will keep the same armament which includes a 125 mm smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks ATGM (AT-11 Sniper, produced in China under license). The standard 12.7mm machine gun mounted on the turret could be replaced by a remotely operated weapon station.



The remote controlled weapon system on its turret already exists.. It was developed along with the tank... Most likely they may replace it with another.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Made in PAK...

*AK & KRL-122




*

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## Path-Finder

Glavcom said:


>


can the 6TD-4 power any tank?

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## Inception-06

double post wrong section- @waz please delete my post !

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## Dazzler

RS inspecting the commander's panoramic sight with related sensors...

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## cabatli_53

According to MSI magazine latest issue,

-Roketsan offers heavy armour package for AK-1 and AK-2 platform.
-Negotiations for Ak-1 upgrade and AK-2 developments are on schedule between two country.

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## Tipu7

cabatli_53 said:


> According to MSI magazine latest issue,
> 
> -Roketsan offers heavy armour package for AK-1 and AK-2 platform.
> -Negotiations for Ak-1 upgrade and AK-2 developments are on schedule between two country.



I wish to see Roketsan developing Armor for Al Khalid series.
This company is also responsible for development of Altay MBT armor package.








Dazzler said:


> RS inspecting the commander's panoramic sight with related sensors...


Fella,
Tell bit about Panoramic sight of Al Khalid. Is it French origin?
And its comparison with that of T90 & T80...........
T90MS & OplotM have multi purpose sight for Gunner as well as commander. Which I guess Al Khalid lack as far as commander sight goes.

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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 370721
> 
> 
> 
> Fella,
> Tell bit about Panoramic sight of Al Khalid. Is it French origin?
> And its comparison with that of T90 & T80...........
> T90MS & OplotM have multi purpose sight for Gunner as well as commander. Which I guess Al Khalid lack as far as commander sight goes.



all three have multipurpose sights. t-90 pre MS and t-80 pre Oplot m versions lack proper panoramic sights. Both tanks lack in true hunter killer and multiprocess fire control which the Alkhalid versions have. 

The panoramic sight is hybrid tech, I.e. french and local

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## Dazzler

Some interesting information here... 

http://studylib.net/doc/5769130/tank-al-khalid---industrialdefencesummit.com

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## Dazzler

Tank Al khalid Fire Control System

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## Blue Marlin

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 372164
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 372165
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 372166
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 372168


what about amour for the top against cluster munitions?

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## Dazzler

Blue Marlin said:


> what about amour for the top against cluster munitions?



RHA and ERA layers.

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## Blue Marlin

Dazzler said:


> RHA and ERA layers.


would it survive a bomblets from a cbu-105?

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## Dazzler

Blue Marlin said:


> would it survive a bomblets from a cbu-105?



in field tests, it did

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## Dazzler

from prototypes...

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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler

View attachment 375146

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## Dazzler

mobility, fording, climbing...



































NBC and fire suppression



...
AC and ECS

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## HRK



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## Army research

Can some in one please post a pic of AK with Max era ?

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## Dazzler

Army research said:


> Can some in one please post a pic of AK with Max era ?


Google them, you'll find many..

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## Inception-06

Army research said:


> Can some in one please post a pic of AK with Max era ?

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## HRK

First posted by TheOccupiedKashmir ...

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## Cool_Soldier

Hope to see these input in AK-2 programme
AK-1 is going to develop with Ukrainian co operation.

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## bananarepublic

Can anyone tell me the difference in the Armour package between al-khalid MBT 2000 and type 90-M except for the ERA on Al khalid

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## Rocky rock

bananarepublic said:


> Can anyone tell me the difference in the Armour package between al-khalid MBT 2000 and type 90-M except for the ERA on Al khalid



Al-Khalid turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm.


And Type 90 you asking about Japanese or Chinese? Chinese Type 90-II is almost having the same armour as of Al-Khalid but in Al-khalid 2 we can surely see something new.

*MBT-2000 of Bangladesh Army!*







*Al-Khalid Tank:*

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## bananarepublic

Rocky rock said:


> Al-Khalid turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm.
> 
> 
> And Type 90 you asking about Japanese or Chinese? Chinese Type 90-II is almost having the same armour as of Al-Khalid but in Al-khalid 2 we can surely see something new.
> 
> *MBT-2000 of Bangladesh Army!*
> 
> View attachment 385122
> 
> 
> *Al-Khalid Tank:*
> 
> 
> View attachment 385123



so Al khalid is not that all home grown we just bought the whole design from the chinese and added different barrel , subsystems and engine 
also how does the front armour thickness compares with T90 ms.


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## Dazzler

bananarepublic said:


> so Al khalid is not that all home grown we just bought the whole design from the chinese and added different barrel , subsystems and engine
> also how does the front armour thickness compares with T90 ms.



Yes, we didn't do jack, it comes assembled from China and we just paint them at HIT.

now sleep tight.


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## The SC

Rocky rock said:


> *Al-Khalid Tank:*
> 
> 
> View attachment 385123


Awesome Tank..






5 Al Khalid for one French Leclerc Tank price wise.. these French are really something!


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## Fawwad Afaq Khan

Manticore said:


> Development of MBT-2000 (Al-Khalid)
> 
> An overview of Pakistan&#8217;s first indigenously designed and manufactured tank.
> 
> The MBT-2000 is a Pakistan-China project, which was initiated in 1990 for the joint development and manufacture of Tank AL-KHALID to meet the General Staff Requirement of Pakistan Army. Based on its strategic alliance with China, Pakistan decided to utilise Chinese infrastructure in the field of tank design/development. By adopting this approach, Pakistan Army aimed at developing a modern land system with minimum development expenditures in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> The development programme comprised a number of prototypes with following configurations:-
> 
> 1.
> 
> Configuration-1 Based entirely on Chinese systems viz the Chinese 125mm gun and auto-loader, fire control system (FCS), gun control system (GCS) and powerpack. The powerpack comprised a 1200 HP engine manufactured in China based on MTU-396 series engine under licence from MTU Germany coupled with LSG-3000 automatic transmission.
> 2.
> 
> Configuration-2 Based on Chinese 125mm gun and auto-loader, the FCS, GCS and powerpack being of Western origin. The powerpack comprised Perkins 1200 HP Condor engine coupled with the French SESM-500 automatic transmission.
> 3.
> 
> Configuration-3 Based upon a 1200 HP powerpack from Ukraine whereas the gun, autoloader, FCS and GCS are of Chinese and western origin.
> 4.
> 
> Configuration-4 Based upon Western armament and powerpack comprising MTU-871/TCM AVDS-1790 engine with LSG-3000 transmission. This option did not materialise owing to difficulties in acquisition of these systems due to trade embargoes.
> 
> During planning stage, a thorough technical evaluation of hydro-gas suspension and Rank-304 transmission was carried out, but these were not considered feasible due to problems associated with maintainability, reliability and other limitations. At the same time due to high ambient temperatures and dust in the operational areas, special emphasis was laid on design and installation of high capacity cooling and efficient air cleaning systems.
> 
> The strategy adopted by Pakistan for development of its MBT requirement has been successful. Over a period of nine years a number of prototypes in different configurations have been subjected to trials and evaluation in difficult terrain environments having ambient temperatures upto 55o C and desert conditions with very fine sand/dust particles. The users and technical experts are fully satisfied with the trials conducted during peak summers of 1998 in the southern desert of Pakistan and subsequently in different regions of the country presenting different terrain environments.
> 
> After successful completion of final evaluation, the pilot production of the tank in configuration-3 is already under progress at Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). HIT has already successfully undertaken manufacture of Chinese origin T-69IIMP/T-85I1AP tanks and US origin APC M113. It is understood that major up gradation and balancing of production lines has been underway at HIT for the last couple of years. This also includes establishment of CNC machining centres for precision machining of hull, turret and other critical parts to undertake manufacture of Al-KHALID.
> 
> HIT has been successful in developing special steel for tank guns and composite armour materials for use during series production. During successive trials, armour protection of the tank at hull and critical areas of the turret has been tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120/125 mm tank projectiles and other selected anti-tank ammunitions.
> 
> The development work of AL-KHALID programme has shown tremendous progress during the last ten years and AL-KHALID has matured as a modern contemporary tank at a fraction of the international cost. In this regard Pakistan has learnt a lot from the Indian experience on the ARJUN programme, which started in 1974, but the tank has still not achieved acceptability with the Indian Army.


Good


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> Yes, we didn't do jack, it comes assembled from China and we just paint them at HIT.
> 
> now sleep tight.


Even the Bismillah is done in Austria.

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## Rocky rock

The SC said:


> Awesome Tank..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 Al Khalid for one French Leclerc Tank price wise.. these French are really something!



It's just because of High Labor cost expensive material, manufacturing cost and at last Latest Technology integration.

One Simple example to understand is in Pakistan we buy tomatoes in 40Pkr but here in KSA where i live same tomatoes we buy in 7Sr which equals to almost 200Pkr 4 times expensive. due to all taxes,import cost,Transportation etc.


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## The SC

Rocky rock said:


> It's just because for High Labor cost expensive material, manufacturing cost and at last Technology integration.
> 
> simple example to understand here in Pakistan we buy tomatoes in 40Pkr but here in KSA where i live same tomatoes we buy in 7Sr which equals to almost 200Pkr 4 times expensive. due to all taxes,import cost,Transportation etc.


Actually the American and German tanks are double the price of the Al Khalid Tank, the French are 5 times its price!?


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## Rocky rock

The SC said:


> Actually the American and German tanks are double the price of the Al Khalid Tank, the French are 5 times its price!?



So they may have integrate some latest technology to test. which specifically could be expensive to make the difference. Like you can take example of F-35 or that US navy latest "LCS Zumwalt" whose Single round cost at $800000 per round so some specific tech makes too much difference.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The SC said:


> Awesome Tank..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 Al Khalid for one French Leclerc Tank price wise.. these French are really something!


Export version of AK, the VT1A (low to mid tech variant) was sold to bangladesh for 4 million a pop.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> Yes, we didn't do jack, it comes assembled from China and we just paint them at HIT.
> 
> now sleep tight.


We have started painting them already????

THAT IS

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## bananarepublic

Dazzler said:


> Yes, we didn't do jack, it comes assembled from China and we just paint them at HIT.
> 
> now sleep tight.



C`mon man don`t become hot headed

the fact is that the whole al khalid desgin is a chinese one we bought and added different subsystem gun and engine


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## Gregor Clegane

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Export version of AK, the VT1A (low to mid tech variant) was sold to bangladesh for 4 million a pop.


VT-1A is export version of MBT-2000.

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## Cool_Soldier

What is coming in under Alhaider Project?
May be.....
Type 99 Chinese Tank OR Turkish Tank


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## Dazzler



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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 386345




No mention of IBMS ? Last specs mentioned IBMS in MISC items


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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> No mention of IBMS ? Last specs mentioned IBMS in MISC items



IBMS is an option for command mbts.


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## alimobin memon

is 600mm enough to withstand atgm and tanks from t90 or t72 ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Cool_Soldier

Al khalid is a Wild beast for Enemy .


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## Dazzler

alimobin memon said:


> is 600mm enough to withstand atgm and tanks from t90 or t72 ?



frontal armor thickness including backplate is more than 800mm, without ERA.

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## Awan68

I know it might sound like a stupid q to pros but isnt the sight exposed in the exterior of almost all modern tanks, lets say the enemy deploys sharpshooters for the sole purpose of taking out tank sights, wouldnt it incapacitate a whole fleet of tanks in the modern battlefield if their sights are taken out by sharpshooters??, what counter measures does the army have for this and what protection do the sights offer in this regard?? cause a sight taken out would blind the commander and the gunner.


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## Dazzler



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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 388402
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 388403


Do you have the picture of Turret which Turkey showed during IDEAS 2016


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## Path-Finder

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 388402
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 388403


what is this?


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## salarsikander

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 386345


A rather noob question. 
Does this means that this engine can be run of either petrol or diesel ?

Like say one time it is being run on petrol and next time on diesel ? 

or is it like you have to stick to the fuel whatever you used first time?


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Do you have the picture of Turret which Turkey showed during IDEAS 2016


which turret


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## Arsalan

salarsikander said:


> A rather noob question.
> Does this means that this engine can be run of either petrol or diesel ?
> 
> Like say one time it is being run on petrol and next time on diesel ?
> 
> or is it like you have to stick to the fuel whatever you used first time?


Multi-fuel engines are designed so that they can be run on different types of fuels. They find a useful application in military forces where in war time the supply lines can be stretched and fuel can be difficult to find thus a multi fuel engine can make use of a wider range of options that can be available live civil use sources, captured fuel type etc. It is not like that you can either run it on petrol or diesel but it means that i can be run on BOTH.

*For example, Klimov GTD-1000T 1000hp turbine engine could use multiple types of fuel including TS-1 and TS-2 aircraft fuel, diesel and even the low-octane gasoline used in civilian cars.*

However to be honest, i am not sure if the 1200 hp 6TD-2 1200 hp diesel engines we used with Al Khalid are multi-fuel. The newer 1500 hp version is a multi-fuel engine however.

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## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> Multi-fuel engines are designed so that they can be run on different types of fuels. They find a useful application in military forces where in war time the supply lines can be stretched and fuel can be difficult to find thus a multi fuel engine can make use of a wider range of options that can be available live civil use sources, captured fuel type etc. It is not like that you can either run it on petrol or diesel but it means that i can be run on BOTH.
> 
> *For example, Klimov GTD-1000T 1000hp turbine engine could use multiple types of fuel including TS-1 and TS-2 aircraft fuel, diesel and even the low-octane gasoline used in civilian cars.*
> 
> However to be honest, i am not sure if the 1200 hp 6TD-2 1200 hp diesel engines we used with Al Khalid are multi-fuel. The newer 1500 hp version is a multi-fuel engine however.



All 6td series are multi fuel water cooled engines. 

http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/addmotor.php

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## Dazzler

weather sensor fr accurate fire control input, most likely by Elbw SA.











Located in the ammunition storage compartment of a vehicle, the Ammunition Compartment Temperature Measuring Devise (ACTMD) is compatible with the Sirius-MIL/L meteorological weather station."

For comparison..






http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/fire/elbw/elbw2.html

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## Dazzler

some revealing shots..

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Zarvan

According to friends this AK 2 will have this kind of turret obviously in 125 MM category

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## Star Expedition

A brilliant beast


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> According to friends this AK 2 will have this kind of turret obviously in 125 MM category



That's the proposed Leopard upgrade by Aselsan. Quite unlikely

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## salman-1

Guys I am new here, can any body tell me how many Al-Khalids have we produced till date, and do we still have any problems of acquiring engines from Ukrain

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## Rocky rock

salman-1 said:


> Guys I am new here, can any body tell me how many Al-Khalids have we produced till date, and do we still have any problems of acquiring engines from Ukrain



More than 300 inducted total 650 planned. Next model would be AK-1 and 2. 
No we never had any problem with Ukraine not before and not even now for AK- engines even at IDEAS 2016 Pakistan and Ukraine signed a deal fro Co-production of engines for nee AK's.
and signed a $600 million agreement for 200 Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building (KMDB) 6TD-2 1,200 hp diesel engines for forthcoming al-Khalid 1 MBTs.


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## Dazzler

6td-2 series,

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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> 6td-2 series,



6td-2, Tank Al-Halid?





I guess they mean AL-KHALID.

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## ziya

from miltech journal

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## ziya



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## JK!

For engineering support is Pakistan still relying on the Norinco WZ 653/M88A1 ARVs for Al Khalid?

Seen that Norinco do have a Type 90II chassis based ARV recently.

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## Vazir

So..........why are we still basing our MBTs on Russian/Chinese tanks? NATO tanks are better (Leopard A2 series is bae). We should at the very least try to put in a 120mm smoothbore gun on our next series.


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## Blue Marlin

@Dazzler is the 125mm gun indigenous? or does pakistan import them, if so from where?


----------



## Dazzler

Blue Marlin said:


> @Dazzler is the 125mm gun indigenous? or does pakistan import them, if so from where?



indigenous. entire gun is made at Gun manufacturing factory, with highly stiff electroslag steel made at peoples steel mills.

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## Blue Marlin

Dazzler said:


> indigenous. entire gun is made at Gun manufacturing factory, with highly stiff electroslag steel made at peoples steel mills.


thanks
any news on the ak2? what engine will it have?


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## Rocky rock

Blue Marlin said:


> thanks
> any news on the ak2? what engine will it have?



the newly revealed Ukranian KMBD 1,500 hp 6TD-3 would be a natural option for the al-Khalid 2.


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## Path-Finder

*ESM500 – High-end transmission for 50+ tons class vehicles*





The automatic gearbox ESM500, installed in the French main battle tank Leclerc can be coupled to a maximum 1600hp engine. A complete powerpack can also be proposed for other applications like Al-Khalid or other ‘above 50 tons class’ vehicles.



Powerpack design
Manual and fully automatic power-shifting
5 speed forward – 2 speed reverse
Infinitely variable hydrostatic steering system actuated by a steering wheel, including pivot on the spot feature
Mechanical emergency gear shift system
Torque converter with automatic lock-up clutch
Secondary side heavy duty retarder
High performance mechanical carbon-carbon service/parking brake separately mounted
Power take-off for fan drive with full digital speed control

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## Zarvan



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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


>


What are ALVB ?


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## AMG_12

Ulla said:


> What are ALVB ?


Armoured Vehicle Launch Bridge. I think they're using AK's chassis for AVLB. We used Chinese and American AVLBs in the past. Using AKs for the purpose would save maintenance costs.

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## Inception-06

Game.Invade said:


> Armoured Vehicle Launch Bridge. I think they're using AK's chassis for AVLB. We used Chinese and American AVLBs in the past. Using AKs for the purpose would save maintenance costs.



That sounds good. We are going in the right direction!

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## Panzerkampf

Zarvan said:


>


Really low production rate.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Panzerkampf said:


> Really low production rate.



Same report says 109 AK-Is

And 6 AZs produced in 2015-16.


New Rounds/Sabots also produced.


Apart from imagery systems,NVGs, Light Armed Assault Vehicle, new VHF radar,radios,naval combat management system,under water survey system,45mm AGLs, etc etc etc

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## Panzerkampf

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Same report says 109 AK-Is
> 
> And 6 AZs produced in 2015-16.
> 
> 
> New Rounds/Sabots also produced.
> 
> 
> Apart from imagery systems,NVGs, Light Armed Assault Vehicle, new VHF radar,radios,naval combat management system,under water survey system,45mm AGLs, etc etc etc


That part is ralking about number if parts of AKs produced not number of AK tanks produced.


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## Dazzler

Panzerkampf said:


> That part is ralking about number if parts of AKs produced not number of AK tanks produced.



HIT is quite busy these days, just look at other projects. Finally both AK and AK-1 are being built. AK-2 R&D running hot.

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## -------

This package is being offered by Aselsan for Al-Khalid II
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/pre...Systems/LIGHT_MEDIUM_MAIN_BATTLE_TANK_ENG.pdf

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## MastanKhan

Future war technology






__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Combat-Master said:


> This package is being offered by Aselsan for Al-Khalid II
> http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/pre...Systems/LIGHT_MEDIUM_MAIN_BATTLE_TANK_ENG.pdf


AK has all this tech.

The main offer is for imagery sights, currently Pak buys Thales/Sagem etc for AK. Which are expensive, while Turkey is offering similiar sights at lower prices.

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## Dazzler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AK has all this tech.
> 
> The main offer is for imagery sights, currently Pak buys Thales/Sagem etc for AK. Which are expensive, while Turkey is offering similiar sights at lower prices.



The FCS/GCS offered is also pretty decent, on par with LEO-2A5+ and M1A2 xx.

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## -------

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AK has all this tech.
> 
> The main offer is for imagery sights, currently Pak buys Thales/Sagem etc for AK. Which are expensive, while Turkey is offering similiar sights at lower prices.



AFAIK the FCS and gun control system on Al-Khalid is of French origin..

EAGLEEYE-15 periscope used on Altay MBT
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/EAGLEEYE-15_ENG.pdf

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## aliaselin

KDR has interviewed Parkistan Army delegate in IDEX 2017 and said the first stage upgrade for AK has been finished, with digital controlled driver system
The next stage of upgrade will use 1500HP engine， with engine from UK Bangan and gearbox from Germany, and 6TD2 can not fulfill Pakistan Army anymore

But what is UK Bangan? Any typo?

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## HRK

aliaselin said:


> KDR has interviewed Parkistan Army delegate in IDEX 2017 and said the first stage upgrade for AK has been finished, with digital controlled driver system
> The next stage of upgrade will use 1500HP engine， with engine from UK Bangan and gearbox from Germany, and 6TD2 can not fulfill Pakistan Army anymore
> 
> But what is UK Bangan? Any typo?



can you plz share the link...


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## Dazzler

aliaselin said:


> KDR has interviewed Parkistan Army delegate in IDEX 2017 and said the first stage upgrade for AK has been finished, with digital controlled driver system
> The next stage of upgrade will use 1500HP engine， with engine from UK Bangan and gearbox from Germany, and 6TD2 can not fulfill Pakistan Army anymore
> 
> But what is UK Bangan? Any typo?



Hmm, i dont think UK has anything better to offer here when their own Challenger 2s still operating the same old Perkins CV12 1200hp engine, which was proven to be inferior to 6td-2 during field trials in Bahawalpur. Gearbox from Germany makes little sense as they are also sanction prone. 

On another note, here is a glimpse into the new digital driver station onboard the Alkhalid.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Combat-Master said:


> AFAIK the FCS and gun control system on Al-Khalid is of French origin..
> 
> EAGLEEYE-15 periscope used on Altay MBT
> http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/EAGLEEYE-15_ENG.pdf


And built in house..

Much like the imagery systems which are produced by a Pakistani company.. Shibli Electronics.



Dazzler said:


> Hmm, i dont think UK has anything better to offer here when their own Challenger 2s still operating the same old Perkins CV12 1200hp engine, which was proven to be inferior to 6td-2 during field trials in Bahawalpur. Gearbox from Germany makes little sense as they are also sanction prone.
> 
> On another note, here is a glimpse into the new digital driver station onboard the Alkhalid.
> 
> View attachment 407541


Since they have opted for 1500 HP
Engine.

I wonder if there will be more visible external change .. perhaps a new turret ?

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## -------

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And built in house..
> 
> Much like the imagery systems which are produced by a Pakistani company.. Shibli Electronics.



So there isn't really much ability to enhance what is produced on license.. Are there any projects to produce indigenously from what is learned from license production ?

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## Dazzler

Combat-Master said:


> So there isn't really much ability to enhance what is produced on license.. Are there any projects to produce indigenously from what is learned from license production ?



See the specs here...

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## -------

Extrapolated from specs;

IIR: 2nd generation detector, scanning type (interlaced).
Magnification: 6x to 10x (10 to 6 degree FOV)
Laser Range finder: 0.2-10km

It's actually good, definitely not worth the costs to upgrade existing MBT and certainly good enough for Al-Khalid II.

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## Lone Ranger

Pakistan-made Al-Khalid (MBT-2000) Main Battle Tank fitted with snorkels for underwater operations.

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## Sameer25

how does the latest Al-khalid tank fair agiants the latest arjun tank

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## Zarvan

Sameer25 said:


> how does the latest Al-khalid tank fair agiants the latest arjun tank


LATEST AL KHALID 1 is in production and new version being developed that is AL KHALID II

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## Glavcom



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## Inception-06

ALKHALID-1




@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER enjoy the latest picture of the ALKHALID-1 and notice the digital camouflage of the T-85AP







Notice the new digital camouflage of the Al-Khalid Tank, and the new turret of the M-113/Al-Thala.

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## bananarepublic

Ulla said:


> ALKHALID-1
> View attachment 412796
> 
> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER enjoy the latest picture of the ALKHALID-1 and notice the digital camouflage of the T-85AP
> 
> 
> View attachment 412797
> 
> 
> Notice the new digital camouflage of the Al-Khalid Tank, and the new turret of the M-113/Al-Thala.
> 
> View attachment 412798



the new cameo looks awesome but they should change the m113 turret to a remotely controlled one ...

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## Glavcom



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## Reichsmarschall

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Export version of AK, the VT1A (low to mid tech variant) was sold to bangladesh for 4 million a pop.


how many were sold to them?

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## HRK

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/heav...al-show-7-september-2017.516460/#post-9843527

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## Hassan Guy

The Indians have taken over Wikipedia,

And removed pakistan has the country that built the al-Khalid, sad jealousy.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Narendra Trump said:


> how many were sold to them?


44+ I believe..

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## AbdulRehman Qureshi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 44+ I believe..



Yes Mate. I have searched it and they telling that 52 sold.

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## BetterPakistan

@Zarvan 

Al Khalid tank is based on type 90-ll so how Al Khalid weight is 46 tonnes? It weight should be 48 tonnes because type 90-ll weight is 48 tonnes.

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## Zarvan

BetterPakistan said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> Al Khalid tank is based on type 90-ll so how Al Khalid weight is 46 tonnes? It weight should be 48 tonnes because type 90-ll weight is 48 tonnes.


Because most internal parts of AL KHALID are changed

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## BetterPakistan

Zarvan said:


> Because most internal parts of AL KHALID are changed



You didn't answered about Al Khalid weight, is it 46 tonnes or 48 tonnes?

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 44+ I believe..


 Hi
Bangladesh bought them from chinese government(mbt 2000). 

Read below news.
For the first time in the country's history, the government will purchase 44 new tanks and three armoured recovery vehicles (ARV) for the army as part of its plan to modernise the armed forces.
The government will also buy two brand new helicopters for the army to ensure necessary logistic support for the UN peacekeeping activities.
The Main Battle Tanks (MBT-2000) and the ARVs will be bought from China, and the helicopters from France through government-to-government deals, which were recently signed. According to the deals, the cost of the tanks will be around Tk 1,201 crore, and the helicopters Tk 174 crore. Besides, a process is on to buy 18 brand new cannons.
The purchases would be done from the budgetary allocations for the army, said government sources.
The government increased the allocation for the armed forces to Tk 12,134 crore in the proposed budget for fiscal 2011-12 from Tk 10,918 crore in the current fiscal year.
"The tanks will be bought through a government to government deal ensuring maximum transparency," Master General of Ordnance (MGO) of Bangladesh Army Maj Gen Abdul Matin told The Daily Star yesterday.
"The purchase is being done as a part of modernisation of the Bangladesh Army," he said adding that the tanks will be delivered in phases over a span of 27 months. In the first phase 24 tanks will come within 20 months, and the rest will come in the second phase over the next 7 months.
The payment for the purchase will be made in phases over the next eight years, said the major general.
Maj Gen (retd) Amin Ahmed Chowdhury told The Daily Star that through this purchase, the military of the country will definitely get a boost.
“If the authorities concerned that would supply the tanks share transfer of technologies then it would work.”
Mag Gen Abdul Matin however said the Chinese government will provide training to technicians of Bangladesh Army in China and in Bangladesh for a good period of time so that the tanks and ARVs could be maintained properly. The training will be free of charge, he said adding that the China would also give adequate spare parts of the tanks.
The government in 2003 took initiatives to buy tanks for the army, but that initiative did not see the light of day due to budgetary limitations, said the sources.
The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.
Later the army requested the government to buy 44 tanks instead of 14.
A five-member committee headed by Maj Gen Abdul Matin signed a deal with the Chinese defence ministry on June 14 to purchase the tanks. According to the deal, China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) will deliver the tanks.
Matin said Eurocopter, a global helicopter manufacturing company in France, will supply the two helicopters by July next year.
The two helicopters will be used in UN peacekeeping missions, he said.
The committee chief said they have signed a draft deal with the countries concerned to purchase 18 new cannons. The agreement will be finalised next year, he added.
Bangladesh first got tanks in 1974 during Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's trip to Egypt. The then Egyptian president Anwar Sadat presented Bangabandhu with 44 tanks that were in good shape, said government sources.
Some refurbished tanks have also been bought for the army over the years.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Hi
> Bangladesh bought them from chinese government(mbt 2000).
> 
> Read below news.
> For the first time in the country's history, the government will purchase 44 new tanks and three armoured recovery vehicles (ARV) for the army as part of its plan to modernise the armed forces.
> The government will also buy two brand new helicopters for the army to ensure necessary logistic support for the UN peacekeeping activities.
> The Main Battle Tanks (MBT-2000) and the ARVs will be bought from China, and the helicopters from France through government-to-government deals, which were recently signed. According to the deals, the cost of the tanks will be around Tk 1,201 crore, and the helicopters Tk 174 crore. Besides, a process is on to buy 18 brand new cannons.
> The purchases would be done from the budgetary allocations for the army, said government sources.
> The government increased the allocation for the armed forces to Tk 12,134 crore in the proposed budget for fiscal 2011-12 from Tk 10,918 crore in the current fiscal year.
> "The tanks will be bought through a government to government deal ensuring maximum transparency," Master General of Ordnance (MGO) of Bangladesh Army Maj Gen Abdul Matin told The Daily Star yesterday.
> "The purchase is being done as a part of modernisation of the Bangladesh Army," he said adding that the tanks will be delivered in phases over a span of 27 months. In the first phase 24 tanks will come within 20 months, and the rest will come in the second phase over the next 7 months.
> The payment for the purchase will be made in phases over the next eight years, said the major general.
> Maj Gen (retd) Amin Ahmed Chowdhury told The Daily Star that through this purchase, the military of the country will definitely get a boost.
> “If the authorities concerned that would supply the tanks share transfer of technologies then it would work.”
> Mag Gen Abdul Matin however said the Chinese government will provide training to technicians of Bangladesh Army in China and in Bangladesh for a good period of time so that the tanks and ARVs could be maintained properly. The training will be free of charge, he said adding that the China would also give adequate spare parts of the tanks.
> The government in 2003 took initiatives to buy tanks for the army, but that initiative did not see the light of day due to budgetary limitations, said the sources.
> The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.
> Later the army requested the government to buy 44 tanks instead of 14.
> A five-member committee headed by Maj Gen Abdul Matin signed a deal with the Chinese defence ministry on June 14 to purchase the tanks. According to the deal, China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) will deliver the tanks.
> Matin said Eurocopter, a global helicopter manufacturing company in France, will supply the two helicopters by July next year.
> The two helicopters will be used in UN peacekeeping missions, he said.
> The committee chief said they have signed a draft deal with the countries concerned to purchase 18 new cannons. The agreement will be finalised next year, he added.
> Bangladesh first got tanks in 1974 during Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's trip to Egypt. The then Egyptian president Anwar Sadat presented Bangabandhu with 44 tanks that were in good shape, said government sources.
> Some refurbished tanks have also been bought for the army over the years.



Bangladesh bought VT1A.. which is an inferior/export model of MBT-2000.... which lacks advanced features present in AK.

However, since its a Pakistani tanks, based on a chinese Type chasis... Pak and China jointly market it (unless its AK)... and profit is divided.


P.S: AK/MBT-2000/VTA1 are only produced by HIT.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bangladesh bought VT1A.. which is an inferior/export model of MBT-2000.... which lacks advanced features present in AK.
> 
> However, since its a Pakistani tanks, based on a chinese Type chasis... Pak and China jointly market it (unless its AK)... and profit is divided.
> 
> 
> P.S: AK/MBT-2000/VTA1 are only produced by HIT.


 They clearly mentioned they r buying MBT 2000 from china under direct government to government deal.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> They clearly mentioned they r buying MBT 2000 from china under direct government to government deal.


Clearly you cant google;

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...l-khalid-tank&catid=112:ideas-2012&Itemid=254

Tank is only produced in Pak.

Its has several variats depending upon the customer.

High end being AK.

Low end being VT1A.

While MBT-2000 is mid tier.

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## Zarvan

BetterPakistan said:


> You didn't answered about Al Khalid weight, is it 46 tonnes or 48 tonnes?


I answered the answer I gave you is the reason why Al KHALID is two tonne less

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Clearly you cant google;
> 
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...l-khalid-tank&catid=112:ideas-2012&Itemid=254
> 
> Tank is only produced in Pak.
> 
> Its has several variats depending upon the customer.
> 
> High end being AK.
> 
> Low end being VT1A.
> 
> While MBT-2000 is mid tier.


Read page 24 and 202 Of this file

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## Arsalan

maravan91 said:


> Read page 24 and 202 Of this file


Here are the two pages you mentioned:
Page 24






Page 202





Can you please guide us to the mention of MBT2000 ?
*
I cannot find any. *

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## maravan91

Arsalan said:


> Here are the two pages you mentioned:
> Page 24
> View attachment 430922
> 
> 
> Page 202
> View attachment 430924
> 
> 
> Can you please guide us to the mention of MBT2000 ?
> *
> I cannot find any. *


This document contains all arms transfer between 2000-2016. See sections of pakistan and Bangladesh

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Read page 24 and 202 Of this file





Doesnt even show transfer of arms by Pak to other countries ... 

And even shows weapons rumoured to be in Pak service, which never made it!

I should you my source... govt agreements to sell MBT variants jointly... of a tank only built in Pak.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Doesnt even show transfer of arms by Pak to other countries ...
> 
> And even shows weapons rumoured to be in Pak service, which never made it!
> 
> I should you my source... govt agreements to sell MBT variants jointly... of a tank only built in Pak.


Pls share

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Pls share


I did.. previous page.

Or do you want examples?

If so.

Find me pics of SH SPGs which the papers claims to be in service.
Tansfer of SMs to Nigeria.

Or even tanks and APCs Saudis siezed.

Or how about small arms exports to Vietnam.

Screw that... find me a pic of MBT-2000 being assembled or produced in china.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I did.. previous page.
> 
> Or do you want examples?
> 
> If so.
> 
> Find me pics of SH SPGs which the papers claims to be in service.
> Tansfer of SMs to Nigeria.
> 
> Or even tanks and APCs Saudis siezed.
> 
> Or how about small arms exports to Vietnam.
> 
> Screw that... find me a pic of MBT-2000 being assembled or produced in china.



Here is a website of MBT 2000 manufacturer. http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html

You did not supply MBT 2000 to Bangladesh. They directly purchased it from Norinco china a original manufacturer of MBT 2000.

Here is Bangladesh source confirming it.
https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com/2011/07/03/bangladesh-purchases-44-norinco-mbt-2000s/


*After successfully under-bidding its export rivals Ukraine, Russia, and Pakistan, China is now set to deliver 44 MBT 2000s to the Bangladeshi Army. News of the deal was released at the end of June and it seems China has scored a major coup by successfully marketing its MBT 2000 despite close rivalry from the Al Khalid, T-90, and T-80UD.*

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## Arsalan

maravan91 said:


> This document contains all arms transfer between 2000-2016. See sections of Pakistan and Bangladesh


Sir DO the two pages you mentioned contain or DO NOT contain the information regarding MBT2000 you claimed? I failed to find that here so i shared both pages with you. Can you please guide me where they mention MBT2000?

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## maravan91

Arsalan said:


> Sir DO the two pages you mentioned contain or DO NOT contain the information regarding MBT2000 you claimed? I failed to find that here so i shared both pages with you. Can you please guide me where they mention MBT2000?


See in pakisatan and Bangladesh section. According to SIPRI arms trade transfer data china sold MBT 2000 to both Pakistan and Bangladesh. This pdf file has all arms transfer details. Page no might be different

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## Smriti95

maravan91 said:


> Here is a website of MBT 2000 manufacturer. http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html
> 
> You did not supply MBT 2000 to Bangladesh. They directly purchased it from Norinco china a original manufacturer of MBT 2000.
> 
> Here is Bangladesh source confirming it.
> https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com/2011/07/03/bangladesh-purchases-44-norinco-mbt-2000s/
> 
> 
> After successfully under-bidding its export rivals Ukraine, Russia, and Pakistan, China is now set to deliver 44 MBT 2000s to the Bangladeshi Army. News of the deal was released at the end of June and it seems China has scored a major coup by successfully marketing its MBT 2000 despite close rivalry from the Al Khalid, T-90, and T-80UD.


You are right:

Here's a report from Bangladesh which confirms China supplied the VT1A and Pakistan lost in the bid:

Army to get 44 tanks
2 helicopters also on purchase list
Hasan Jahid Tusher

For the first time in the country's history, the government will purchase 44 new tanks and three armoured recovery vehicles (ARV) for the army as part of its plan to modernise the armed forces.
The government will also buy two brand new helicopters for the army to ensure necessary logistic support for the UN peacekeeping activities.
The Main Battle Tanks (MBT-2000) and the ARVs will be bought from China, and the helicopters from France through government-to-government deals, which were recently signed. According to the deals, the cost of the tanks will be around Tk 1,201 crore, and the helicopters Tk 174 crore. Besides, a process is on to buy 18 brand new cannons.
The purchases would be done from the budgetary allocations for the army, said government sources.
The government increased the allocation for the armed forces to Tk 12,134 crore in the proposed budget for fiscal 2011-12 from Tk 10,918 crore in the current fiscal year.
"The tanks will be bought through a government to government deal ensuring maximum transparency," Master General of Ordnance (MGO) of Bangladesh Army Maj Gen Abdul Matin told The Daily Star yesterday.
"The purchase is being done as a part of modernisation of the Bangladesh Army," he said adding that the tanks will be delivered in phases over a span of 27 months. In the first phase 24 tanks will come within 20 months, and the rest will come in the second phase over the next 7 months.
The payment for the purchase will be made in phases over the next eight years, said the major general.
Maj Gen (retd) Amin Ahmed Chowdhury told The Daily Star that through this purchase, the military of the country will definitely get a boost.
“If the authorities concerned that would supply the tanks share transfer of technologies then it would work.”
Mag Gen Abdul Matin however said the Chinese government will provide training to technicians of Bangladesh Army in China and in Bangladesh for a good period of time so that the tanks and ARVs could be maintained properly. The training will be free of charge, he said adding that the China would also give adequate spare parts of the tanks.
The government in 2003 took initiatives to buy tanks for the army, but that initiative did not see the light of day due to budgetary limitations, said the sources.
The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, *and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.*
Later the army requested the government to buy 44 tanks instead of 14.
A five-member committee headed by Maj Gen Abdul Matin signed a deal with the Chinese defence ministry on June 14 to purchase the tanks. According to the deal, China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) will deliver the tanks.
Matin said Eurocopter, a global helicopter manufacturing company in France, will supply the two helicopters by July next year.
The two helicopters will be used in UN peacekeeping missions, he said.
The committee chief said they have signed a draft deal with the countries concerned to purchase 18 new cannons. The agreement will be finalised next year, he added.
Bangladesh first got tanks in 1974 during Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's trip to Egypt. The then Egyptian president Anwar Sadat presented Bangabandhu with 44 tanks that were in good shape, said government sources.
Some refurbished tanks have also been bought for the army over the years.

http://googleweblight.com/e?u=http:...7&hl=en-IN&late=1&rqid=WZzgWaWeAo2T2Aag8JzwAg

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## Arsalan

maravan91 said:


> See in pakisatan and Bangladesh section. According to SIPRI arms trade transfer data china sold MBT 2000 to both Pakistan and Bangladesh. This pdf file has all arms transfer details. Page no might be different


So it NOT on page 24 and 202 then as you were suggesting earlier?

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## maravan91

Arsalan said:


> So it NOT on page 24 and 202 then as you were suggesting earlier?


It is easy to pakistan and Bangladesh section from given file

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## Arsalan

maravan91 said:


> It is easy to pakistan and Bangladesh section from given file


Sir on the pages you claimed or NOT? (24 and 202)
Simple question and expect a simple answer.

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## maravan91

Arsalan said:


> Sir on the pages you claimed or NOT? (24 and 202)
> Simple question and expect a simple answer.



I am using mobile phone to post. So page no may be wrong


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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Here is a website of MBT 2000 manufacturer. http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html.


http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html


HIT is the manufacturer.

HIT & NORINCO market the tank and its variants jointly.



> You did not supply MBT 2000 to Bangladesh. They directly purchased it from Norinco china a original manufacturer of MBT 2000.



Doesnt matter if you deal with NORINCO or HIT.

MBT-2000 and its variants will be produced by HIT.




> Here is Bangladesh source confirming it.
> https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com/2011/07/03/bangladesh-purchases-44-norinco-mbt-2000s/
> 
> 
> *After successfully under-bidding its export rivals Ukraine, Russia, and Pakistan, China is now set to deliver 44 MBT 2000s to the Bangladeshi Army. News of the deal was released at the end of June and it seems China has scored a major coup by successfully marketing its MBT 2000 despite close rivalry from the Al Khalid, T-90, and T-80UD.*


UDs werent even in production anymore by the time..

MBT-2000 is a variant of AK... with chinese subsystems.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> HIT is the manufacturer.
> 
> HIT & NORINCO market the tank and its variants jointly.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesnt matter if you deal with NORINCO or HIT.
> 
> MBT-2000 and its variants will be produced by HIT.
> 
> 
> 
> UDs werent even in production anymore by the time..
> 
> MBT-2000 is a variant of AK... with chinese subsystems.



No you r completely wrong, you didnt support your claim with authentic report


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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> No you r completely wrong, you didnt support your claim with authentic report



I gave you a link on the previous page.

Try clickin and read it for a change.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I gave you a link on the previous page.
> 
> Try clickin and read it for a change.


that link you posted in previous page did not support your claim "Bangladesh purchased mbt 2000 from pakistan "


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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> that link you posted in previous page did not support your claim "Bangladesh purchased mbt 2000 from pakistan "


What do you think joint marketing means?

If they didnt procure them directly from us... who cares? The tank itself was built in Pakistan by HIT.

HIT toyed around with several prototypes.. 

The variant with chinese subsystems (mid tier tech) became the MBT-2000... 

The one with Pak systems,guns etc and european subsystems became the AK...

Either way, the design remains Pak (albeit built on a chinese Type 90 series).

And is only produced by Pak..

While both Pak and China market it to third countries jointly... 

The profit is again split... good for both.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you think joint marketing means?
> 
> If they didnt procure them directly from us... who cares? The tank itself was built in Pakistan by HIT.
> 
> HIT toyed around with several prototypes..
> 
> The variant with chinese subsystems (mid tier tech) became the MBT-2000...
> 
> The one with Pak systems,guns etc and european subsystems became the AK...
> 
> Either way, the design remains Pak (albeit built on a chinese Type 90 series).
> 
> And is only produced by Pak..
> 
> While both Pak and China market it to third countries jointly...
> 
> The profit is again split... good for both.



Again post a single credible source to support your claim you produced mbt 2000 for Bangladesh or profit is shared between norinco or Bangladesh. See this video



 in which your army officer was saying what is indigenous in alkhalid produced in pakistan


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## monitor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you think joint marketing means?
> 
> If they didnt procure them directly from us... who cares? The tank itself was built in Pakistan by HIT.
> 
> HIT toyed around with several prototypes..
> 
> The variant with chinese subsystems (mid tier tech) became the MBT-2000...
> 
> The one with Pak systems,guns etc and european subsystems became the AK...
> 
> Either way, the design remains Pak (albeit built on a chinese Type 90 series).
> 
> And is only produced by Pak..
> 
> While both Pak and China market it to third countries jointly...
> 
> The profit is again split... good for both.




Never heard Al Khalid or MBT jointly marketed by China Pakistan it's not like JF-17 which develop jointly. 
Bangladesh have been using MBT-2000 not Al-Khalid .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Again post a single credible source to support your claim you produced mbt 2000 for Bangladesh or profit is shared between norinco or Bangladesh.



Would this be “credible”;

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ing-Al-Khalid-I-tank/articleshow/17834719.cms

Read the last para.




> See this video
> 
> 
> 
> in which your army officer was saying what is indigenous in alkhalid produced in pakistan


Do you want me to watch a 35 min video from an anchor who doesnt know his elbow from his arse?

Or point out where he said what.

I know more than enough about AK.

Fire away.. il provide you solid sources to back my stuff up!



monitor said:


> Never heard Al Khalid or MBT jointly marketed by China Pakistan it's not like JF-17 which develop jointly.
> Bangladesh have been using MBT-2000 not Al-Khalid .


You didnt?

Bad news for you;


HIT spent 10 years developing it;


https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/al-khalid-tank-type-90-iim-mbt-2000-information-pool.127686/


https://www.dawn.com/news/amp/1217909


AK/MBT2000 was built by HIT... using the Type-90IIM series as its basis!


From its Tank Gun,Autoloader,Fire Supression system... down to its ERA,Armour,IBMS,NBC/Bio protection,Fire Supression system,Imagery systems (minus some produced in JV by a Pak Company and Sagem) etc ... is a Pakistani tank.



monitor said:


> Never heard Al Khalid or MBT jointly marketed by China Pakistan it's not like JF-17 which develop jointly.
> Bangladesh have been using MBT-2000 not Al-Khalid .


MBT-2000 is a mid tier AK variant using chinese subsystems.

News for you!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Again post a single credible source to support your claim you produced mbt 2000 for Bangladesh or profit is shared between norinco or Bangladesh. See this video
> 
> 
> 
> in which your army officer was saying what is indigenous in alkhalid produced in pakistan





monitor said:


> Never heard Al Khalid or MBT jointly marketed by China Pakistan it's not like JF-17 which develop jointly.
> Bangladesh have been using MBT-2000 not Al-Khalid .


I hope you people are aware that AK-2 is coming?

Not to forget the 2009-10 Upgrade ... termed AK-I.



maravan91 said:


> Again that article did not say you produced MBT 2000 for Bangladesh.
> 
> Here is report from Bangladesh news paper
> http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-191737
> 
> *The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.*


Lmao.

You are pathetically clinging to straws.


ISLAMABAD: State-run companies of Pakistanand China today signed a contract for manufacturing the Al-Khalid-I tank, the latest version of the combat vehicle jointly developed by the two countries. 

The Al-Khalid tank was developed in the 1990s and introduced in 2001. 

The new version has improved capability and systems, an official statement said. 


*The contract for making the new tanks was signed by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila and China's NORINCO at the Ministry of Defence Production. 

The joint marketing of the Al-Khalid tank with China would open up potential markets, the statement said.*

*IDEAS 2012: Pakistan, China to market Al-Khalid tank together *


By Saad Hasan Published: November 12, 2012 It is equipped with a 125mm gun and can fire sophisticated
ammunition, missiles while stationary or moving. PHOTO: ONLINE / FILE 



KARACHI: Pakistan is aiming to find international buyers for its prized Al-
Khalid tank, after reaching an understanding with co-producer
China to market the product together, a top military official said
on Sunday. Heavy Industries, Taxila, and Beijings Norinco signed a memorandum
of understanding to this effect on Thursday during the International
Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2012, Director General of
Defence Export Promotion Organisation Major General Tariq Khan said. We are not in the business of selling t-shirts, Khan said during the
closing ceremony of the exhibition, as newsmen pushed him to justify
claims about the event being a success. It takes months and years of
negotiations to seal the agreements. This MoU will help us a lot. We have also received orders for our unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV),
commonly known as a drone, which is used for intelligence gathering
by police and military in different parts of the world, he added. The Al-Khalid tank was developed in the 1990s. It is equipped with a
125mm gun and has the capability to fire sophisticated ammunition
including missiles in both stationary and moving conditions. For years, Pakistan has been trying in vain to sell the product, while
China is also marketing a variant of Al-Khalid. Joint marketing with
China opens up potential markets that would otherwise have been
difficult for Islamabad to penetrate into, officials said. Under the deal,
profit from the sale will be mutually shared. Major General Khan said selling heavy equipment like tanks and aircraft
is not easy as political considerations need to be taken into account.
At times even if a country wants to buy something, the deal breaks
off because of some political angle. Foreign delegates who visited the exhibition will come back with
requests to test the military gear and equipment in coming months, he
said. But I can assure you there has been a lot of interest in what we
make. However, Khan said it was impossible to state in numbers the size of
deals made during the exhibition. Military officials involved in international defence trade say Pakistan is
continuously being sidelined because of its geopolitical situation. Meanwhile, Minister for Defence Production Sardar Bahadur Khan said
another jointly developed product with China, the JF-17 Thunder
fighter plane, will be marketed soon as well. (WITH ADDITIONAL INPUT FROM FARHAN ZAHEER) Published in The Express Tribune, November 12th, 2012.

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I hope you people are aware that AK-2 is coming?
> 
> Not to forget the 2009-10 Upgrade ... termed AK-I.
> 
> 
> Lmao.
> 
> You are pathetically clinging to straws.
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: State-run companies of Pakistanand China today signed a contract for manufacturing the Al-Khalid-I tank, the latest version of the combat vehicle jointly developed by the two countries.
> 
> The Al-Khalid tank was developed in the 1990s and introduced in 2001.
> 
> The new version has improved capability and systems, an official statement said.
> 
> 
> *The contract for making the new tanks was signed by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila and China's NORINCO at the Ministry of Defence Production.
> 
> The joint marketing of the Al-Khalid tank with China would open up potential markets, the statement said.*



Pls read the article first, Bangladesh rejected your tender from pakistan . And selected norinco mbt 2000



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you want me to watch a 35 min video from an anchor who doesnt know his elbow from his arse?
> 
> Or point out where he said what.
> 
> I know more than enough about AK.
> 
> Fire away.. il provide you solid sources to back my stuff up!


 Watch video from 17.00 minutes onwards. Your own army officer was saying only 30-35 % of al khalid tank is indigenous. 

You r the same person who claimed 600 alkhalid produced. But It is later revealed only 320 r produced till 2015.

I think it will clear the who supplied MBT 2000 to Bangladesh 
http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-191737

*The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.*


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Pls read the article first, Bangladesh rejected your tender from pakistan . And selected norinco mbt 2000



But according to u AK is a chinese mbt 2000?

So how did Pak bid the same tank as china?

All while u convieniently foget Joint Marketing by HIT and Norinco... And the fact that it was HIT that spent millions on the project n a decade developing AK.



> Watch video from 17.00 minutes onwards. Your own army officer was saying only 30-35 % of al khalid tank is indigenous.



Learn basic Urdu before that 8000 purzay... purzay means small parts... like chips/components etc. He also states about Tank gun,FCS,Armour,Alloys built by HIT.


Its also a known fact that HIT outsources some components from private Pak companies..

For ex... Autoloader which is produced by CARE pvt ltd https://carepvtltd.com .... Laser detection warning and Jamming system produced by Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) http://atcop.org.pk ..... ERAAR 3 Laser Range Finder
LRH 786Q Laser Range Finder
Laser Designator & Ranger, Pak-IBMS (Rehbar)
DGM by GIDS.. etc.

Does it mean AK isnt indigenous? coz its parts are also outsourced from Pak private companies? 


> You r the same person who claimed 600 alkhalid produced. But It is later revealed only 320 r produced till 2015.



4 tanks per month ... almost 3 years.


> I think it will clear the who supplied MBT 2000 to Bangladesh
> http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-191737
> 
> *The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.*



Son, MBT 2000 is a version of AK.. Too hard for u too swallow?

AK2 is also coming... HIT offical confirmed it at IDEAS 2016.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> Again denial. Read this Bangladesh army statement is more credible than your claim.
> http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-191737
> Till now you produced only 320-340 mbt 2000/al kkhalid not 600.


I know u are butthurt... swallow it.

and now isnt 2014-15...

340 (50 under production) was in 2014 MODP Yearbook... Its Oct 17.



maravan91 said:


> Read this SIPRI report it clearly mentions *china supplied 320 mbt 2000 to pakistan*, ukraine supplied engines for the same tank.


*And u just posted a video showing AK under production.. fukin ironic ... aint it. *
And claim Pak bid to sell the "alleged" chinese tanks to bangladesh?  Takin a sh1t on ur own moronic claims... again and again... coz u cant deal with reality..



SIPRI also claims Pak has 92 SH1 SP Guns... go figure kid.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> when u lose arguments u resort to personal attack.You r not a credible source.So Pls post modp year book to support your claim.



Says the dumbass troll .. contradicting his own stupid claims?
Quotes MODP report about production of 320-40 tanks.

Than claims ;


China supplied 320 tanks to Pak?


Than posts a video showing AKs hull under production.

Claims AK/MBT is a chinese tank...


Than;

Claims Pak bid the same tank as China in BD tender.

Ask for sources;

Yet conviniently ignores HIT & NORINCO joint marketing agreenent.


Claims 35% small components are indigenous..

Chickens out when provided sources.


And than, goes back to the same nonsensical claims!

Special breed of stupid.

Everything is fake. SIPRI is God? 

I just proved SIPRI wrong...

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## maravan91

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Says the dumbass troll .. contradicting his own stupid claims?
> Quotes MODP report about production of 320-40 tanks.
> 
> Than claims ;
> 
> 
> China supplied 320 tanks to Pak?
> 
> 
> Than posts a video showing AKs hull under production.
> 
> Claims AK/MBT is a chinese tank...
> 
> 
> Than;
> 
> Claims Pak bid the same tank as China in BD tender.
> 
> Ask for sources;
> 
> Yet conviniently ignores HIT & NORINCO joint marketing agreenent.
> 
> 
> Claims 35% small components are indigenous..
> 
> Chickens out when provided sources.
> 
> 
> And than, goes back to the same nonsensical claims!
> 
> Special breed of stupid.
> 
> Everything is fake. SIPRI is God?
> 
> I just proved SIPRI wrong...



We r building t 90 india that does not make t90 tank ours.

You claimed pakistan sold MBT to Bangladesh . I proved you wrong by Bangladesh army statement. Now show me a single source to prove your claim pakistan sold mbt 2000 to Bangladesh. Otherwise accept you falsely claimed Bangladesh export

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## Khafee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Says the dumbass troll .. contradicting his own stupid claims?
> Quotes MODP report about production of 320-40 tanks.
> 
> Than claims ;
> 
> 
> China supplied 320 tanks to Pak?
> 
> 
> Than posts a video showing AKs hull under production.
> 
> Claims AK/MBT is a chinese tank...
> 
> 
> Than;
> 
> Claims Pak bid the same tank as China in BD tender.
> 
> Ask for sources;
> 
> Yet conviniently ignores HIT & NORINCO joint marketing agreenent.
> 
> 
> Claims 35% small components are indigenous..
> 
> Chickens out when provided sources.
> 
> 
> And than, goes back to the same nonsensical claims!
> 
> Special breed of stupid.
> 
> Everything is fake. SIPRI is God?
> 
> I just proved SIPRI wrong...


I fail to understand, why you entertain jokers like him.

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## maravan91

Khafee said:


> I fail to understand, why you entertain jokers like him.



He claimed pakistan sold mbt 2000 to Bangladesh. I proved him wrong. Till now he did not provide single source to support his claim

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## Khafee

maravan91 said:


> He claimed pakistan sold mbt 2000 to Bangladesh. I proved him wrong. Till now he did not provide single source to support his claim


Show me a valid source, that says MBT2000 "is manufactured in China".

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## maravan91

Khafee said:


> Show me a valid source, that says MBT2000 "is manufactured in China".


The original manufacturer of MBT 2000-http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html

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## Khafee

maravan91 said:


> The original manufacturer of MBT 2000-http://www.norinco.com/GB/61/76/77/index.html


You fail to understand the relationship between Norinco and HIT. So write to Norinco and ask them who built the MBT2000, sold to BD.

A lot of people claimed things on this forum, that turned out to be absolute "A grade BS", so instead of arguing and wasting my time, all I did was call up the manufacturer, and get it straight form the horses mouth. In 99% of the cases, I didn't have to use an official letterhead.

In case you are genuinely interested in learning, I suggest you do the same.

Thank You.

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## maravan91

Khafee said:


> You fail to understand the relationship between Norinco and HIT. So write to Norinco and ask them who built the MBT2000, sold to BD.
> 
> A lot of people claimed things on this forum, that turned out to be absolute "A grade BS", so instead of arguing and wasting my time, all I did was call up the manufacturer, and get it straight form the horses mouth. In 99% of the cases, I didn't have to use an official letterhead.
> 
> In case you are genuinely interested in learning, I suggest you do the same.
> 
> Thank You.



The government was supposed to buy seven tanks last year and seven more this year. As only a Chinese company took part in the tender, the government cancelled it, and re-invited tender in which four companies from China, Russia, Ukraine, and Pakistan participated. Chinese company Norinco was selected as the lowest bidder.
http://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-191737

Do you hav any source to refute above article?

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## Khafee

maravan91 said:


> Didnt expect this from so called professional turned senior member


When you are blinded by hatred, nothing can cure you, I gave you a way out, you didn't take it. You had to prove to the forum that you are a troll.

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## Khafee

maravan91 said:


> You did not post a sigle post regarding mbt 2000 in this thread. You r the one trolling here


I didn't have to, @DESERT FIGHTER and @Arsalan already have, but you keep on trolling.

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## Arsalan

maravan91 said:


> I am using mobile phone to post. So page no may be wrong


Thank you for the clarification. See it was not too hard. 

By the way, the numbers appear SAME when you open it on laptop or mob, anyway, lets forget that.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

maravan91 said:


> We r building t 90 india that does not make t90 tank ours.



Ah no you are assembling T-90s.

We developed AK.

Meanwhile AKII is under development at HIT.


> You claimed pakistan sold MBT to Bangladesh . I proved you wrong by Bangladesh army statement. Now show me a single source to prove your claim pakistan sold mbt 2000 to Bangladesh. Otherwise accept you falsely claimed Bangladesh export



And i proved to you that Pak and China market it jointly.. and the tank was developed in Pak by HIT... which invested money and a decade in the project.

@maravan91 meanwhile enjoy the 90s documentry on AK development by HIT







AND 

Read previous pages of the thread you are trolling.

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## Smriti95

maravan91 said:


> Again post a single credible source to support your claim you produced mbt 2000 for Bangladesh or profit is shared between norinco or Bangladesh. See this video
> 
> 
> 
> in which your army officer was saying what is indigenous in alkhalid produced in pakistan


Actually the production rate at HIT is quite bad, as it managed to deliver a mere 12 tanks last year.

so no tanks were exported from HIT.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Smriti95 said:


> Actually the production rate at HIT is quite bad, as it managed to deliver a mere 12 tanks last year.
> 
> so no tanks were exported from HIT.


Its 48-50 tanks per year.

It was slow in the past, because of financial constraints and development of AK II.

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## Smriti95

@maravan91 Also Pakistan MoDPs annual reports show from July 2010 to June 2015, only 19 Al Khalid were built at HIT.
So the 44 tanks of BD Army were definitely not built at HIT.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Its 48-50 tanks per year.
> 
> It was slow in the past, because of financial constraints and development of AK II.


Yes there Is a production capacity of 50 tanks per year which while not bad is still far below the production rates of other tank builders in the region.

But between 2010-15 only 19 AKs were built.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Smriti95 said:


> @maravan91 Also Pakistan MoDPs annual reports show from July 2010 to June 2015, only 19 Al Khalid were built at HIT.
> So the 44 tanks of BD Army were definitely not built at HIT.
> 
> 
> Yes there Is a production capacity of 50 tanks per year which while not bad is still far below the production rates of other tank builders in the region.
> 
> But between 2010-15 only 19 AKs were built.


MODP report is yearly .. it doesn’t cover 5 years.

It stated tanks built for PA & PA orders.

Mainly MODP report covers only Pak military purchases and development by Pak Govt manufacturers ... in its yearly/annual report.

It is DEPO that looks after exports among other things.

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## Bossman

Smriti95 said:


> @maravan91 Also Pakistan MoDPs annual reports show from July 2010 to June 2015, only 19 Al Khalid were built at HIT.
> So the 44 tanks of BD Army were definitely not built at HIT.
> 
> 
> Yes there Is a production capacity of 50 tanks per year which while not bad is still far below the production rates of other tank builders in the region.
> 
> But between 2010-15 only 19 AKs were built.


Tanks are not made same as cars I.e continuous production in expectation of sales. HIT only makes them when it has orders from the Army. No order no production. So low production is a non-issue. You should worry about Arjun's production.

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## maravan91

*Qnt Customer Value Add Date
(Close Date) Unit cost
44 

$160.500.000
Jul 2011 
(Oct 2013)
$3,647,727
150 

$300.000.000
Feb 2009 
(Dec 2010)
$2,000,000
Average Unit Cost: 
$2,373,711
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1475.html

Bangladesh and Moracco r last two customers of MBT 2000*


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## Smriti95

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MODP report is yearly .. it doesn’t cover 5 years.
> 
> It stated tanks built for PA & PA orders.
> 
> Mainly MODP report covers only Pak military purchases and development by Pak Govt manufacturers ... in its yearly/annual report.
> 
> It is DEPO that looks after exports among other things.



nope that's not true at all.
In fact even in the PAC sections MoDP report counts Mushshaks built for exports under total production.
There's no mention of Al Khalid exports in DEPO reports too.

In this entire thread you have absolutely failed to provide a single shred of evidence that BD VT1A were built at HIT.


Your lack of knowledge can be seen from the fact that you used to claim, PA has 600 AKs just a few months back only to get shut down after MoDP report revealed it's only ~330.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Smriti95 said:


> nope that's not true at all.
> In fact even in the PAC sections MoDP report counts Mushshaks built for exports under total production.
> There's no mention of Al Khalid exports in DEPO reports too.


Ok sure.

*Do post , MODP or DEPO report stating Mushak sales, JF sales or any other weapons sale.*

Im waiting.



> In this entire thread you have absolutely failed to provide a single shred of evidence that BD VT1A were built at HIT.



This entire thread is about AK project.

From its origins to its systems.

As for sales if BD VTA1. I dont need too. When ive already given you solid proof of joint Pak-China marketing of the tank... that should be enough!

Not even talking about Pak participatiom and development of the tank to begin with.



> Your lack of knowledge can be seen from the fact that you used to claim, PA has 600 AKs just a few months back only to get shut down after MoDP report revealed it's only ~330.


You keep quoting an almost 3 year old figure (330 in service-50 under production) ... yet that isnt even the point.



maravan91 said:


> *Qnt Customer Value Add Date
> (Close Date) Unit cost
> 44
> 
> $160.500.000
> Jul 2011
> (Oct 2013)
> $3,647,727
> 150
> 
> $300.000.000
> Feb 2009
> (Dec 2010)
> $2,000,000
> Average Unit Cost:
> $2,373,711
> http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1475.html
> 
> Bangladesh and Moracco r last two customers of MBT 2000*



Last customer was burma.. you tool.
*
Morroco isnt even a confirmed buyer.. no actual record/pic of MBT-2000 in morrocan service exists.


So much for a third rate source like “army guide”.*


The only confirmed users are;

Bangladesh
Peru
Myanmar



maravan91 said:


> Resort to personal insults when u can't prove your tall claim


Says the troll.. who has nothing but second rate websites to prove..

And has constantly contradicted his own statements.

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## Blacklight

This thread is supposed to be an"information pool", but we have trolls destroying this thread. Someone needs to put a stop to this.

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## Mrc

Can we merge a ground surveillance radar with alkhalid 1???

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## Smriti95

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ok sure.
> 
> *Do post , MODP or DEPO report stating Mushak sales, JF sales or any other weapons sale.*
> 
> Im waiting.
> 
> 
> 
> This entire thread is about AK project.
> 
> From its origins to its systems.
> 
> As for sales if BD VTA1. I dont need too. When ive already given you solid proof of joint Pak-China marketing of the tank... that should be enough!
> 
> Not even talking about Pak participatiom and development of the tank to begin with.
> 
> 
> You keep quoting an almost 3 year old figure (330 in service-50 under production) ... yet that isnt even the point.
> 
> 
> 
> Last customer was burma.. you tool.
> *
> Morroco isnt even a confirmed buyer.. no actual record/pic of MBT-2000 in morrocan service exists.
> 
> 
> So much for a third rate source like “army guide”.*
> 
> 
> The only confirmed users are;
> 
> Bangladesh
> Peru
> Myanmar
> 
> 
> Says the troll.. who has nothing but second rate websites to prove..
> 
> And has constantly contradicted his own statements.


The wording of the MODP report makes it clear that they are taking about total production and not just delivery to Pakistan Army: "Production progress during financial year 2012-13 is as under".

Anyways The UN Arms register regards the sale of VT1A to Bangladesh as a Chinese sale:



> China exported a total of 461 tanks from 1992 to 2013, according to the United Nations' Register of Conventional Arms, which began to record conventional weapons transfers between UN member states in 1992. Pakistan bought 296 Chinese tanks during the two decades.
> Russia sold 1,297 tanks during the same period, with Algeria being the largest buyer.
> The biggest tank exporter during the period was the United States, which reported sales of 5,511 tanks. It was followed by Germany, which sold 2,680 tanks.
> *In 2013, the latest year for which data is available, China sold 98 tanks to foreign buyers. Bangladesh, with a 44-tank deal, was the largest customer through, the UN said.*


http://wap.chinadaily.com.cn/2015-06/05/content_20913353.htm

Anyways the marketing deal between HIT & NORINCO was signed only in November 2012, whereas Bangladesh ordered the tanks in June 2011

http://www.tribune.com.pk/story/462962/defence-production-hit-norinco-sign-marketing-sale-deal/


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## Signalian

Mrc said:


> Can we merge a ground surveillance radar with alkhalid 1???


infantry uses it effectively on its own. installing on AK as a package will increase cost. tanks cant maneuver in all terrains to get best results from radar. also infantry can conceal and use the radar, tank is an inviting target.

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## Mrc

Signalian said:


> infantry uses it effectively on its own. installing on AK as a package will increase cost. tanks cant maneuver in all terrains to get best results from radar. also infantry can conceal and use the radar, tank is an inviting target.



true I was just thinking it may be helpful in picking enemy tanks at a longer distance.... off course than you can engage them at a longer distance... some thing like fighters... see first shoot first and disappear

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## Awan68

Mrc said:


> true I was just thinking it may be helpful in picking enemy tanks at a longer distance.... off course than you can engage them at a longer distance... some thing like fighters... see first shoot first and disappear


Radar info is passed on to the tank in a matter of mere seconds, no point carying a radar on a tank, it would require extra crew etc..

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## Glavcom



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## nana41

monitor said:


> Never heard Al Khalid or MBT jointly marketed by China Pakistan it's not like JF-17 which develop jointly.
> Bangladesh have been using MBT-2000 not Al-Khalid .


Both these tanks are same as a joint effort.The differences being,MBT 2000 cheaper with Chinese engine/gearbox,whereas Al Khalid is expensive with western engine/gearbox/electronics.

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## Arsalan

@Dazzler have you heard about interest in T-90s from Russia? 
A delegation was there in Russia and the only stumbling block seem to be ammo as Russians want us to buy ammo too but we are not interested in that. The number being sought is around 400 tanks. 
Seems authentic to me but i am not really excited on this development, would have loved it to progress some other way.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Tipu7 @Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> @Dazzler have you heard about interest in T-90s from Russia?
> A delegation was there in Russia and the only stumbling block seem to be ammo as Russians want us to buy ammo too but we are not interested in that. The number being sought is around 400 tanks.
> Seems authentic to me but i am not really excited on this development, would have loved it to progress some other way.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Tipu7 @Path-Finder



Do you think T90 has space in PA?

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Do you think T90 has space in PA?


Personally? NO!!
Plus i do not like the idea at all but this is what i have been told as happening. I hope it is wrong but have to confirm it with some members here as well, may be someone have more details than i managed to gather.

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> Personally? NO!!
> Plus i do not like the idea at all but this is what i have been told as happening. I hope it is wrong but have to confirm it with some members here as well, may be someone have more details than i managed to gather.



my thoughts exactly. I believe the T80 chassis is the most superior in the old T series tanks only T14 has the crown. Pursuing T80 chassis will be appropriate as it gives you more choices for engine and armament upgrades. T90 being based on a T72 Chassis is limited in certain ways. 

Hazrat @Zarvan you source was right on T90

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## Mumm-Ra

Arsalan said:


> @Dazzler have you heard about interest in T-90s from Russia?
> A delegation was there in Russia and the only stumbling block seem to be ammo as Russians want us to buy ammo too but we are not interested in that. The number being sought is around 400 tanks.
> Seems authentic to me but i am not really excited on this development, would have loved it to progress some other way.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Tipu7 @Path-Finder



What happened to the Oplot-P trials? And do we think that our relations with Russian are at that certain level that we may procure advanced armaments from them that will be used on our eastern border? The helis were different as their main purpose was assisting in COIN operations.



Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you source was right on T90



If the news is true then he may have the last laugh after all. And , God forbid, if his sources on the gun replacement are correct, the whole PDF is gonna go flip upside down


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> What happened to the Oplot-P trials? And do we think that our relations with Russian are at that certain level that we may procure advanced armaments from them that will be used on our eastern border? The helis were different as their main purpose was assisting in COIN operations.
> 
> 
> 
> If the news is true then he may have the last laugh after all. And , God forbid, if his sources on the gun replacement are correct, the whole PDF is gonna go flip upside down



Well not bad for being a 'useless member'


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## Mumm-Ra

Path-Finder said:


> Well not bad for being a 'useless member'



Hahahaha...Just saw the awards thread. Some folk here never cease to amaze..
Well on topic then...what do you think? Could such a development happen?


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## Path-Finder

Xlvee01 said:


> Hahahaha...Just saw the awards thread. Some folk here never cease to amaze..
> Well on topic then...what do you think? Could such a development happen?



I would say there in no rush as such for the T90 because Al-Khalid 2 is being rendered by HIT. Before that there is AK1 rolling off the production line. The utility of having a product that is you opportunities to make necessary modifications as required without asking permission. 

As I mentioned above T80 chassis is the right choice giving ample opportunities to tailor the tank to PA's needs.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> @Dazzler have you heard about interest in T-90s from Russia?
> A delegation was there in Russia and the only stumbling block seem to be ammo as Russians want us to buy ammo too but we are not interested in that. The number being sought is around 400 tanks.
> Seems authentic to me but i am not really excited on this development, would have loved it to progress some other way.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Tipu7 @Path-Finder


400 T-90 as for ammo that we can deal with them but I actually thought I was wrong about T-90 but it seem things have changed again. So let see @Path-Finder







Latest T-90 which Russian Army is looking to adopt


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> 400 T-90 as for ammo that we can deal with them but I actually thought I was wrong about T-90 but it seem things have changed again. So let see @Path-Finder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latest T-90 which Russian Army is looking to adopt



I think lets see how the AK2 will be! T90 can wait

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I think lets see how the AK2 will be! T90 can wait


No it can't we have to replace our old T-69 and T-59 and eventually Al Zarrar also. I think 500 of T-90 can be great start and as Russia has good production level. We can buy T-90 from them and may be produce OPLOT here. But let see what happens.


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## Arsalan

Xlvee01 said:


> What happened to the Oplot-P trials? And do we think that our relations with Russian are at that certain level that we may procure advanced armaments from them that will be used on our eastern border? The helis were different as their main purpose was assisting in COIN operations.


Not sure. T90s were not here for testing but still i was told that a delegation did visited Russia to discuss the project. I just hope it is not right and i think there are better and bigger things to go after for PA.



Path-Finder said:


> my thoughts exactly. I believe the T80 chassis is the most superior in the old T series tanks only T14 has the crown. Pursuing T80 chassis will be appropriate as it gives you more choices for engine and armament upgrades. T90 being based on a T72 Chassis is limited in certain ways.


Yes!
Plus from the discussion i had with someone at HIT, the major problem PA have with Al-Khalid is lack of proper modern crew availability setup. Like a separate compartment with blow out panels or something. Cant see how T90 will address that. From my discussion there, it seem like THIS one factor will play a key role in future tank selection.



Zarvan said:


> 400 T-90 as for ammo that we can deal with them but I actually thought I was wrong about T-90 but it seem things have changed again. So let see @Path-Finder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latest T-90 which Russian Army is looking to adopt



We are not interested in buying ammo from them.
They are not interested in sale without ammo.

That is where it is right now!

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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> A delegation was there in Russia


there was a news item shared by some member mentioning the head of Pakistani Delegation to Russia praised & stated interest in different Russian weaponry but T-90 was mentioned in that news item in casual manner ....


Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you source was right on T90


if I am not wrong @kaonalpha was the one who hinted about it.


Path-Finder said:


> Do you think T90 has space in PA?


Might be AK+OPLOT or AK+T-90*MS* combo the number indicated by Arsalan is same as quoted during OPLOT trials in Pakistan

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Not sure. T90s were not here for testing but still i was told that a delegation did visited Russia to discuss the project. I just hope it is not right and i think there are better and bigger things to go after for PA.
> 
> 
> Yes!
> Plus from the discussion i had with someone at HIT, the major problem PA have with Al-Khalid is lack of proper modern crew availability setup. Like a separate compartment with blow out panels or something. Cant see how T90 will address that. From my discussion there, it seem like THIS one factor will play a key role in future tank selection.
> 
> 
> 
> We are not interested in buying ammo from them.
> They are not interested in sale without ammo.
> 
> That is where it is right now!


I doubt they would loose the chance of selling T-90 it would be something else Janab. they are ready to give TOT to Indonesia although they are buying only squadron of SU-35. So I seriously doubt ammo will come in between they selling us T-90


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## hussain0216

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you source was right on T90



This is a sign of the end of the world 

Allah be merciful!


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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> We are not interested in buying ammo from them.
> They are not interested in sale without ammo.
> 
> That is where it is right now!


which mean discussion is at initial phase


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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> there was a news item shared by some member mentioning the head of Pakistani Delegation to Russia praised & stated interest in different Russian weaponry but T-90 was mentioned in that news item in casual manner ....


I was informed about it by two different people. One from HIT and other from POF. According to POF guy, it is the ammo deal that is a problem otherwise rest is all ok (but how? what about evaluation and trials?)



> if I am not wrong @kaonalpha was the one who hinted about it.


You are RIGHT but it is useless to try to argue and convince some people. 



> Might be AK+OPLOT or AK+T-90*MS* combo the number indicated by Arsalan is same as quoted during OPLOT trials in Pakistan


OPLOT opens up the options for an indigenous system in future, a tank chassis fitted with different sub systems to make a tank to meet our needs and may be use the platform as basis of APC, IFV, SAM Carrier and other such roles.

T-90 wont offer that.



HRK said:


> which mean discussion is at initial phase


Yes, it should mean that. The guy MUST have been wrong when he said that everything is done except this one point. I am not sure how it is possible (without proper evaluation and trials)



Zarvan said:


> I doubt they would loose the chance of selling T-90 it would be something else Janab. they are ready to give TOT to Indonesia although they are buying only squadron of SU-35. So I seriously doubt ammo will come in between they selling us T-90


That is what i have been told. Currently, it is just about a final agreement on ammo! Russians do not want to commit any performance aspects if we do not buy ammo from them.

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## Path-Finder

hussain0216 said:


> This is a sign of the end of the world
> 
> Allah be merciful!







hussain0216 said:


> This is a sign of the end of the world
> 
> Allah be merciful!



It was @kaonalpha I have been corrected!



HRK said:


> there was a news item shared by some member mentioning the head of Pakistani Delegation to Russia praised & stated interest in different Russian weaponry but T-90 was mentioned in that news item in casual manner ....
> 
> if I am not wrong @kaonalpha was the one who hinted about it.
> 
> Might be AK+OPLOT or AK+T-90*MS* combo the number indicated by Arsalan is same as quoted during OPLOT trials in Pakistan



If the 500 number is true it maybe a purchase that is limited for gap filling until AK-2 + Oplot become operational. Strange thing for me is india already operates the tank and Pakistan is likely considering it.


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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> I was informed about it by two different people. One from HIT and other from POF. According to POF guy, it is the ammo deal that is a problem otherwise rest is all ok (but how? what about evaluation and trials?)
> 
> 
> You are RIGHT but it is useless to try to argue and convince some people.
> 
> 
> OPLOT opens up the options for an indigenous system in future, a tank chassis fitted with different sub systems to make a tank to meet our needs and may be use the platform as basis of APC, IFV, SAM Carrier and other such roles.
> 
> T-90 wont offer that.
> 
> 
> Yes, it should mean that. The guy MUST have been wrong when he said that everything is done except this one point. I am not sure how it is possible (without proper evaluation and trials)


I think talks are still at initial stage exactly because of the two reason you mention
1- T-90 is not trailed in Pakistan
2- OPLOT offer more flexibility in terms of future option & integration with existing fleet 

I think T-90 is our fall back plan IF OPLOT option does get materialize due to any reason.

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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> I think talks are still at initial stage exactly because of the two reason you mention
> 1- T-90 is not trailed in Pakistan
> 2- OPLOT offer more flexibility in terms of future option & integration with existing fleet
> 
> I think T-90 is our fall back plan IF OPLOT option does get materialize due to any reason.


Ameen to that!
Wasay i did requested my guy to double check all the details. May be he will come back with some updates later on and i hope it is better news at that time.

Will love to see what @Dazzler have to say about this.

Or may be @Horus have been in contact with someone at HIT and can share some more details.

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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> If the 500 number is true it maybe a purchase that is limited for gap filling until AK-2 + Oplot become operational.


Arsalan quoted 400 numbers as this figure was suggested for OPLOT as well


Path-Finder said:


> Strange thing for me is india already operates the tank and Pakistan is likely considering it.


I don't think we will take both OPLOT and T-90 it will be either T90 or OPLOT (or any other option which will clear our trial as as we were supposed to test 4 tanks in trials)


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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> Arsalan quoted 400 numbers as this figure was suggested for OPLOT as well
> 
> I don't think we will take both OPLOT and T-90 it will be either T90 or OPLOT (or any other option which will clear our trial as as we were supposed to test 4 tanks in trials)



Oplot is a better option but it has issues with production due to the political climate there. The T80UD can be brought to Oplot level in the meantime. T90 at present seems to be a inquisitive phase.

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## CHACHA"G"

I have many doubts on this , but I personally know that PA need 2000+ 50+T tanks , and 300 to 500 55+T tanks and they need them ASAP... So any thing can happen...........
To me AK series is our main and only indigenous series for now , , , 100 OPLOT only coming for engine mainly (we need local engine production) and with new 100 we can also upgrade our older T-80UDs to T-84P standers.
PA need to replace older tanks in great numbers , (If bought )500 T-90s can help a lot , new and much better tank , Quickly available , etc and PA can fit some of there systems in them too...
500 AK , 400 T-84P , 500 T-90 total 1400 tanks then 500 AK-2(may be) will make 1900 tanks(50+T) , what will happen to Al-Haider???? Why I am heaving a felling that AL-Haider is 55+T tank???????



Path-Finder said:


> Oplot is a better option but it has issues with production due to the political climate there. The T80UD can be brought to Oplot level in the meantime. T90 at present seems to be a inquisitive phase.


we are not buying T-84P for Al-Haider or heavy replacement , we are going for them because , we need engine tech , armor tech , and few sub-systems and we will also upgrade T-80UDs , so that deal not only upgrade our older tanks but that will also help us in many other....
I don't see any link in T-90 and T-84 ,,
Yes we do need replacement for older tanks , but we also need to look around options available ,,,, I guess there are not many ,,,,,, So we like it or not we may have to go for T-90.....

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## Path-Finder

CHACHA"G" said:


> I have many doubts on this , but I personally know that PA need 2000+ 50+T tanks , and 300 to 500 55+T tanks and they need them ASAP... So any thing can happen...........
> To me AK series is our main and only indigenous series for now , , , 100 OPLOT only coming for engine mainly (we need local engine production) and with new 100 we can also upgrade our older T-80UDs to T-84P standers.
> PA need to replace older tanks in great numbers , (If bought )500 T-90s can help a lot , new and much better tank , Quickly available , etc and PA can fit some of there systems in them too...
> 500 AK , 400 T-84P , 500 T-90 total 1400 tanks then 500 AK-2(may be) will make 1900 tanks(50+T) , what will happen to Al-Haider???? Why I am heaving a felling that AL-Haider is 55+T tank???????
> 
> 
> we are not buying T-84P for Al-Haider or heavy replacement , we are going for them because , we need engine tech , armor tech , and few sub-systems and we will also upgrade T-80UDs , so that deal not only upgrade our older tanks but that will also help us in many other....
> I don't see any link in T-90 and T-84 ,,
> Yes we do need replacement for older tanks , but we also need to look around options available ,,,, I guess there are not many ,,,,,, So we like it or not we may have to go for T-90.....



In my eyes the biggest issue is how deep are your pockets! Options are not limited in the armor world. Many nations are making components and really propelling armor revolution forward. If you see Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Turkey, South Korea, France and Germany plus others. Buying a complete Tank vs buying a tank that has your selected components for tailored specifications is what Pakistan is going for.

I believe that is the best approach which Pakistan has chosen by engaging many vendors to make the right tank.

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## CHACHA"G"

Path-Finder said:


> In my eyes the biggest issue is how deep are your pockets! Options are not limited in the armor world. Many nations are making components and really propelling armor revolution forward. If you see Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Turkey, South Korea, France and Germany plus others. Buying a complete Tank vs buying a tank that has your selected components for tailored specifications is what Pakistan is going for.
> 
> I believe that is the best approach which Pakistan has chosen by engaging many vendors to make the right tank.


Options are many but they are not available , for many reasons ,deep pockets are only one , And also I guess PA is impressed by T-90s performance in Syria ... But I do agree PA's approach is great to have a tank that suits you the most....
In the end we need tanks , and we do know AK will take time and we can not replace every thing with AK , and T-84P is not a good option for many reasons(not the tank but the country) so what we did in OPLOT deal is just great. 
Now @Zarvan will be dammmm happy , if the news is true........

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> Options are many but they are not available , for many reasons ,deep pockets are only one , And also I guess PA is impressed by T-90s performance in Syria ... But I do agree PA's approach is great to have a tank that suits you the most....
> In the end we need tanks , and we do know AK will take time and we can not replace every thing with AK , and T-84P is not a good option for many reasons(not the tank but the country) so what we did in OPLOT deal is just great.
> Now @Zarvan will be dammmm happy , if the news is true........


I am trying to figure it out that is T-90 separate from Al Haider project or not. What I know is under AL HAIDER project Pakistan may test VT 4 and OPLOT P again if not already testing so I want to know whether T-90 is part of same project or different.

@Horus @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler

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## Path-Finder

CHACHA"G" said:


> Options are many but they are not available , for many reasons ,deep pockets are only one , And also I guess PA is impressed by T-90s performance in Syria ... But I do agree PA's approach is great to have a tank that suits you the most....
> In the end we need tanks , and we do know AK will take time and we can not replace every thing with AK , and T-84P is not a good option for many reasons(not the tank but the country) so what we did in OPLOT deal is just great.
> Now @Zarvan will be dammmm happy , if the news is true........



Chacha ji Oplot is a variant of T84. T90 is limited as we discussed few pages back as it is based on the T72 chassis. T80 chassis gives you the choice for mod's which is limited in T90.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji Oplot is a variant of T84. T90 is limited as we discussed few pages back as it is based on the T72 chassis. T80 chassis gives you the choice for mod's which is limited in T90.


First confirm whether T-90 is part of AL HAIDER project or different. I doubt it's part of AL HAIDER project

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## CHACHA"G"

T-84 OPLOT is not for Al-Haider as per news so far , and T-90s cant be ...... I can only tell for Al-Haider we need a tank with Full TOT............ 


Zarvan said:


> I am trying to figure it out that is T-90 separate from Al Haider project or not. What I know is under AL HAIDER project Pakistan may test VT 4 and OPLOT P again if not already testing so I want to know whether T-90 is part of same project or different.
> 
> @Horus @balixd @DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler



..... I hope and pray if we buy T-90 they serve Pakistan the best and OPLOT can upgrade our T-80s and also can help us in AK-2


Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji Oplot is a variant of T84. T90 is limited as we discussed few pages back as it is based on the T72 chassis. T80 chassis gives you the choice for mod's which is limited in T90.

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> T-84 OPLOT is not for Al-Haider as per news so far , and T-90s cant be ...... I can only tell for Al-Haider we need a tank with Full TOT............
> 
> 
> ..... I hope and pray if we buy T-90 they serve Pakistan the best and OPLOT can upgrade our T-80s and also can help us in AK-2


Than are you saying we may go for Altay because I have heard of Altay also as Al Haider

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## CHACHA"G"

Zarvan said:


> Than are you saying we may go for Altay because I have heard of Altay also as Al Haider


Once I've been told PA will look for 55+T tank,,,,,,,, so any thing can happen , If Altay can come down to 54t to 55t we can...... or if VT-4 can go up to 53t to 54t we can go for that.............

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## alimobin memon

We are getting t90 ?

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> Once I've been told PA will look for 55+T tank,,,,,,,, so any thing can happen , If Altay can come down to 54t to 55t we can...... or if VT-4 can go up to 53t to 54t we can go for that.............


VT-4 has no chance, OPLOT P will most likely come as AL HAIDER project. Ukraine is offering full TOT of OPLOT, VT 4 is not good and we are not satisfied. As for Altay and T-90 they can separately as we have massive Tanks to replace pretty much 2000 + Tanks and one Tank can't replace all not even two so we would need 3 Tanks to do the job.

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## CHACHA"G"

Zarvan said:


> VT-4 has no chance, OPLOT P will most likely come as AL HAIDER project. Ukraine is offering full TOT of OPLOT, VT 4 is not good and we are not satisfied. As for Altay and T-90 they can separately as we have massive Tanks to replace pretty much 2000 + Tanks and one Tank can't replace all not even two so we would need 3 Tanks to do the job.


I too have doubts on VT-4 ,,,,,, If we are going to have AK-2 , VT-4 make no sense for Al-Haider... 
What if We go for Altay as Al-Haider?? What if we will buy 100 OPLOT and upgrade older T-80uds to there stander?? And what if we stick to AK ,,,,, that will be 3 tanks with 60% to 70% similarities , that leave T-90 , if T-90 program have 30% to 40% with other 3 that will be great....... 
In short 4 tanks (3 almost same , 1 different) .

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> First confirm whether T-90 is part of AL HAIDER project or different. I doubt it's part of AL HAIDER project





CHACHA"G" said:


> T-84 OPLOT is not for Al-Haider as per news so far , and T-90s cant be ...... I can only tell for Al-Haider we need a tank with Full TOT............
> 
> 
> ..... I hope and pray if we buy T-90 they serve Pakistan the best and OPLOT can upgrade our T-80s and also can help us in AK-2



Chacha ji and Hazrat I think we have overshot on the conversation here, There is nothing solid to go on as of yet. The only thing we have at present that is concrete suggests Oplot has the heaviest tilt towards it as the interest is openly visible.

T90 is a new entrance into the Jargon with no solid affirmation beyond interest displayed in the product. But we have AK1 with improved AK2 coming soon. 

We will have to be patient and wait as it appears. so let the waiting games begin

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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> I too have doubts on VT-4 ,,,,,, If we are going to have AK-2 , VT-4 make no sense for Al-Haider...
> What if We go for Altay as Al-Haider?? What if we will buy 100 OPLOT and upgrade older T-80uds to there stander?? And what if we stick to AK ,,,,, that will be 3 tanks with 60% to 70% similarities , that leave T-90 , if T-90 program have 30% to 40% with other 3 that will be great.......
> In short 4 tanks (3 almost same , 1 different) .


Janab AK 1 will come and AK 2 will but still we need at least 1500 other Tanks in future. And we have never gone with one Tank. So AL HAIDER Project most likely is OPLOT P, question is whether T-90 is part of AL HAIDER project or different than AL Haider as for Altay well first let it enter production than we can talk about it.


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## CHACHA"G"

Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji and Hazrat I think we have overshot on the conversation here, There is nothing solid to go on as of yet. The only thing we have at present that is concrete suggests Oplot has the heaviest tilt towards it as the interest is openly visible.
> 
> T90 is a new entrance into the Jargon with no solid affirmation beyond interest displayed in the product. But we have AK1 with improved AK2 coming soon.
> 
> We will have to be patient and wait as it appears. so let the waiting games begin


Bro I have my doubts too, I have my horses well under control............ I also said if news is true or if we go for t-90........... but point here is PA need tanks and HIT busy in AK and may be OPLOT (up gradation of T-80s),,,,, that make this news extra spicy 400 to 500 tanks Purchase.......... that can quickly add numbers and replace older tanks.



Zarvan said:


> Janab AK 1 will come and AK 2 will but still we need at least 1500 other Tanks in future. And we have never gone with one Tank. So AL HAIDER Project most likely is OPLOT P, question is whether T-90 is part of AL HAIDER project or different than AL Haider as for Altay well first let it enter production than we can talk about it.


Janab AK-1 is already coming..............


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## Zarvan

CHACHA"G" said:


> Bro I have my doubts too, I have my horses well under control............ I also said if news is true or if we go for t-90........... but point here is PA need tanks and HIT busy in AK and may be OPLOT (up gradation of T-80s),,,,, that make this news extra spicy 400 to 500 tanks Purchase.......... that can quickly add numbers and replace older tanks.
> 
> 
> Janab AK-1 is already coming..............


I know and also AK-2 will come still we would have around 1500 old Tanks to replace and AL KHALID 1 and II both together even can't replace all those old Tanks so we need at least two more Tanks so either they could be T-90 and OPLOT P. Or they could be OPLOT P and Altay


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## CHACHA"G"

Zarvan said:


> I know and also AK-2 will come still we would have around 1500 old Tanks to replace and AL KHALID 1 and II both together even can't replace all those old Tanks so we need at least two more Tanks so either they could be T-90 and OPLOT P. Or they could be OPLOT P and Altay


AK , OPLOT , T-90 and Altay or AK , OPLOT and Altay or AK , T-90 and Altay ... or AK , T-90 and OPLOT .... any of these is deadly combination 
Lets wait and see ....... what comes out..............

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## Path-Finder

CHACHA"G" said:


> Bro I have my doubts too, I have my horses well under control............ I also said if news is true or if we go for t-90........... but point here is PA need tanks and HIT busy in AK and may be OPLOT (up gradation of T-80s),,,,, that make this news extra spicy 400 to 500 tanks Purchase.......... that can quickly add numbers and replace older tanks.
> 
> 
> Janab AK-1 is already coming..............





Zarvan said:


> I know and also AK-2 will come still we would have around 1500 old Tanks to replace and AL KHALID 1 and II both together even can't replace all those old Tanks so we need at least two more Tanks so either they could be T-90 and OPLOT P. Or they could be OPLOT P and Altay



Chacha ji and Hazrat. If we order the T90 lets say today It will arrive in 2020. Which is the same time frame for AK-2 and Oplot or earlier for latter as T90 has yet to be tested in Pakistan. 

Currently this gives Oplot and AK-2 a lead.

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## CHACHA"G"

Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji and Hazrat. If we order the T90 lets say today It will arrive in 2020. Which is the same time frame for AK-2 and Oplot or earlier for latter as T90 has yet to be tested in Pakistan.
> 
> Currently this gives Oplot and AK-2 a lead.


AK-2 will always have a lead and in current deals Oplot also have a lead....... But if Oplot is not Al-Haider then ? Then the time frame that you gave will become irrelevant..........
I still have my doubts on T-90s , it just cant make any sense........ To me things will be more clear when we know what will be Al-Haider.........

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Chacha ji and Hazrat. If we order the T90 lets say today It will arrive in 2020. Which is the same time frame for AK-2 and Oplot or earlier for latter as T90 has yet to be tested in Pakistan.
> 
> Currently this gives Oplot and AK-2 a lead.


Even if we order OPLOT it would take at least 1.5 year for first one to arrive and AK-1 is under production and in next couple of years we would AK-2. Still we would see one other Tank let see which one is that

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> Oplot is a better option but it has issues with production due to the political climate there. The T80UD can be brought to Oplot level in the meantime. T90 at present seems to be a inquisitive phase.


And these political issues present us with the perfect opportunity. Should make full use of it!!

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## Path-Finder

Arsalan said:


> And these political issues present us with the perfect opportunity. Should make full use of it!!


Agreed

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## Dazzler

Hear it once again. There is no room for T90 in PA when AK series and t80uds are there. No negotiations took place on this issue.

T90 is obsolete.

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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> T90 is obsolete.


what about T-90MS ... ??

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## Dazzler

Pretty much the same thing. Same gun+ammo+autoloader and other limitations.


HRK said:


> what about T-90MS ... ??

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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> Hear it once again. There is no room for T90 in PA when AK series and t80uds are there. No negotiations took place on this issue.
> 
> T90 is obsolete.


It is, specially when you consider the fact that there is little room for modifications. Thats why i hope my guy was wrong about it. It is just the fact that same thing was mentioned by two different people in two diff. organizations. Maybe someone is getting rich?

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Hear it once again. There is no room for T90 in PA when AK series and t80uds are there. No negotiations took place on this issue.
> 
> T90 is obsolete.


Well considering you want to replace Tanks like T-69 and T-59 I say OPLOT is too good to replace OPLOT should come and will come but not as replacement of older Tanks but a major advance Tank which compliments AL KHALID 1 and AL KHALID II in future and T-90 latest model which ever it is can replace our older Tanks

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Given the sheer number of T-59s and al-Zarrar MBTs, I wonder, do they really intend a 1:1 replacement of those tanks with new-gen MBTs? Could a lot of the T-59s be replaced by an IFV fitted with a 105 mm gun?

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Given the sheer number of T-59s and al-Zarrar MBTs, I wonder, do they really intend a 1:1 replacement of those tanks with new-gen MBTs? Could a lot of the T-59s be replaced by an IFV fitted with a 105 mm gun?


Sir let say we have around 1500 of those even if we don't go for 1 : 1 still we would have to at least go for 900 to 1000 Tanks and no way we are going to have 900 OPLOT or T-90 only which automatically means we need two major Tanks and yes IFV or Anti Tank weapon like the one Italy has can also come

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## Signalian

MBT is basically an offensive weapon platform and used in armored warfare against enemy targets in a conventional warfare. But recent wars have shown that non-conventional threats are popping up in many parts of the world more than conventional warfare threats which demands an MBT to be equipped for urban ops. M1 MBT has TUSK upgrade program for this purpose.

Given the experience of PA operating in COIN ops, PA could have designed the AK-1 or an AK series into an MBT, optimised and suited for urban warfare. 

1. An all sides caged armor/slat armor package installed on MBT as an option, instead of ERA.
2. A remote controlled 12.7mm gun.
3. Ammo room for HE rounds and ATGM's instead of SABOT.
4. IBMS to include data entry/collection options incase infantry portable laptop systems are not present.
5. Ability to communicate with a hand operated drone used by supporting infantry unit.
6. Casualty evacuation ability, provided internally or externally.
7. Option for mortar mount (81mm) and operated internally, even if loaded externally after a few rounds. MBT can move out of danger zone and re-load.


Optional SENSORS:

There should be an option of sensors available on customers request, apart from APS(active protection systems), EO, other IR system already installed. The sensors should have easily integrated mounting spots on the MBT. 

1. Ground penetrating radar, to detect under ground movement in tunnels. 

2. Acoustic sensors (apart from thermal) and other EO sensors. Acoustic-optronics can be used to detect hidden snipers.

3. Sensors to detect under-clothing explosives/weapons from a suitable range. 

4. Detection and jamming system (upgradable to latest threats) against modern IED's Hyperspectral and laser to detect difficult targets at mid- and long ranges. In case of obscurants (smoke, dust etc.) a radar sensor can support the optical system. 

5. A technology to "see/feel through walls", like Coherent Radar Through Wall System, to detect whats on the other side of walls, like a mone pulse radar system. The drawback of the system was its weight to be carried by soldiers in combat, can now be used in combat installed on MBT.

6. A ground alert sensor, which could instantly get activated as soon as it senses activity (person walking, running, jumping etc) at a distance of 100-1000m meters in a certain direction.

7. A sensor for foliage-penetration, like a UHF pulse Doppler waveforms radar which can detect and track vehicle (up to 6km range) or helicopter (10km) hidden behind a mask or foliage.

8. NBC safety package, to be used in case of biological and nuclear warfare zone, where risk of using infantry is maximum. I think AK-1 is already protected.

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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> true I was just thinking it may be helpful in picking enemy tanks at a longer distance.... off course than you can engage them at a longer distance... some thing like fighters... see first shoot first and disappear



Hi,

Are you saying tanks killing other tanks from a farther distance?


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> Given the experience of PA operating in COIN ops, PA could have designed the AK-1 or an AK series into an MBT, optimised and suited for urban warfare.


There is no Urban warfare in Pakistan up to the level which demands dedicated version of MBT. Our asymmetric threat is based on Mountainous region where 48 Ton AK (TUSK or similar upgrade will increase its weight) will have limited mobility and will be overkill in most cases as TTP and it's splinter groups do not carry any ATGMs.
Instead of using precious AK, we can further optimize already optimized T59/69 and make them more 'Western Front specific'. Plus, We no longer need MBT on ground to deal with Terror borne threats as we have cleared that area already and there are no longer any enemy fortifications.
Rather than Urban kit for MBT, for Pakistan, conversion of T59/69 (few of them) into dedicated IFV like Russian BTR-T will be interesting option as such IFV are much suited in given COIN threat and offer way more flexibility with slight reduction in fire power and making no compromise on protection. This interesting method may look credible but it's highly unlikely we will sort it out.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> There is no Urban warfare in Pakistan up to the level which demands dedicated version of MBT. Our asymmetric threat is based on Mountainous region where 48 Ton AK (TUSK or similar upgrade will increase its weight) will have limited mobility and will be overkill in most cases as TTP and it's splinter groups do not carry any ATGMs.
> Instead of using precious AK, we can further optimize already optimized T59/69 and make them more 'Western Front specific'. Plus, We no longer need MBT on ground to deal with Terror borne threats as we have cleared that area already and there are no longer any enemy fortifications.
> Rather than Urban kit for MBT, for Pakistan, conversion of T59/69 (few of them) into dedicated IFV like Russian BTR-T will be interesting option as such IFV are much suited in given COIN threat and offer way more flexibility with slight reduction in fire power and making no compromise on protection. This interesting method may look credible but it's highly unlikely we will sort it out.


There are many countries where tanks can be used in urban combat in COIN ops and a customised version of AK should be brought up with options as per customer requirements. The experience that PA got can be utilised in that MBT.

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## Gryphon

Malyshev Plant shipped the next batch of motor-transmission facilities for the Republic of Pakistan.

Motor-transmission units are kits, including engine, transmission, engine maintenance systems, air purification system, armored roof. Subsequently, all of these kits will be installed in Pakistani Al-Khalid-1 military vehicles.

http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/medi...dni-3-mlrd-grn-realizovanoyi-produktsiyi.html

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> There are many countries where tanks can be used in urban combat in COIN ops and a customised version of AK should be brought up with options as per customer requirements. The experience that PA got can be utilised in that MBT.


Counter Argument :
Yara we don't have enough sources to full fill domestic production goals, how are we supposed to make AK an MBT ideal for Urban warfare? Our Military forces do not have any experience in this regard as far as utility of MBT is concerned. In mountainous terrain, while dealing with low intensity conflict against militia which lack sophisticated weapon system and rely on their overwhelming Geographical and organizational advantages , we do have a lot experience. We can teach World the tactics, not specific modernization in military hardware.
For example, for Urban Warfare, using MBT against force equipped with ATGMs, installation of Soft Kill as well as Hard Kill Protection System is crucial demand. Along side shells which are specifically meant to kill life in such confined environment (TBX based shells). Neither we have expertise in tank design nor in making of armor for enhanced Ballistic protection.
I believe Israel experience are special in this regard as their threat perceptions include COIN Ops again Hizb ul Allah and Hamas in Lebonan & Gaza strip respectively, and both of these militias are well equipped and trained in anti tank role.
We don't have any such threat perceptions as Tanks in Pakistan are primarily meant to counter India or along side Western Borders to deal with Afghanistan and insurgents (just in case)

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Counter Argument :
> Yara we don't have enough sources to full fill domestic production goals, how are we supposed to make AK an MBT ideal for Urban warfare? Our Military forces do not have any experience in this regard as far as utility of MBT is concerned. In mountainous terrain, while dealing with low intensity conflict against militia which lack sophisticated weapon system and rely on their overwhelming Geographical and organizational advantages , we do have a lot experience. We can teach World the tactics, not specific modernization in military hardware.
> For example, for Urban Warfare, using MBT against force equipped with ATGMs, installation of Soft Kill as well as Hard Kill Protection System is crucial demand. Along side shells which are specifically meant to kill life in such confined environment (TBX based shells). Neither we have expertise in tank design nor in making of armor for enhanced Ballistic protection.
> I believe Israel experience are special in this regard as their threat perceptions include COIN Ops again Hizb ul Allah and Hamas in Lebonan & Gaza strip respectively, and both of these militias are well equipped and trained in anti tank role.
> We don't have any such threat perceptions as Tanks in Pakistan are primarily meant to counter India or along side Western Borders to deal with Afghanistan and insurgents (just in case)



Had PA put AK in combat in COIN, the Saudis would be looking to get AK for ops in Yemen instead of using and losing M1 Abrams. In order to save AK from houthi ATGM teams, PA would have devised/ordered/imported an APS system out of necessity.

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## GriffinsRule

Had PA put AKs in COIN operations, you would have seen images of burnt out hulls of those tanks as well. 
If M1A1s or Merkavas can be blown up using mines or ATGMs, AK is no exception.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GriffinsRule said:


> Had PA put AKs in COIN operations, you would have seen images of burnt out hulls of those tanks as well.
> If M1A1s or Merkavas can be blown up using mines or ATGMs, AK is no exception.


Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.

And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..

Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.

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## GriffinsRule

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.
> 
> And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..
> 
> Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.



Are AKs less prone to what happened to M1A1 Abrams in Yemen? If so, care to explain how?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GriffinsRule said:


> Are AKs less prone to what happened to M1A1 Abrams in Yemen? If so, care to explain how?


Nothing is indestructible...

But comparing Paks WOT to saudis shortfalls in yemen is stupid to say the least.

Nowhere in the world do tank crews abandon their tanks at the sight of a flip flop wearing guy with an rpg.

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## Mrc

When ever u put amour to protect troops caz they are afraid to 
Dismount this Will happen... 

Even US in Iraq had same issue

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## SQ8

There is no need to put your best tank designed for straight out punching with Armor in head on attacks into a crossfire type ambush game such as most COIN ops are. The PA was smart to stick to sending the TYpe-59s and 69s which have both ample firepower and are generally cheap throwaways into this fray.

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## GriffinsRule

You guys are missing what I was getting at. I was responding to Signalians assertion that ...
"Had PA put AK in combat in COIN, the Saudis would be looking to get AK for ops in Yemen instead of using and losing M1 Abrams"

If its just a matter of their soldiers getting out and fighting, why would they need AKs for that? That was the point I was trying to make. And then to further assume that PA somehow would have cared enough for the reputation of their tank to survive (not saudi soldier's lives) against Houti ATGM they would have been forced to upgraded them with some sort of Active Protection System.

Anyways, that was my point.

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.
> 
> And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..
> 
> Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.


I think PA marketed; superior strategy, implementation of planning and generic battle experience to the world, rather than any weapon systems. This is because PA has to bring out the results with what its got in its inventory, whether an old or a modern weapon. AZ and T-59 II are not the MBT's which anyone will buy, even when they showed good results. AH-1 proved to be an excellent gunship on western border/COIN, but its considered outdated in front of the likes of AH-64 D/E. The world has been seeing US transport helicopters since 1960's, first UH-1 in vietnam and then UH-60 since 1980's although Mi-17 is very rugged, can take a lot of beating and it has been used in all terrains by PA; desert, plains, mountains, snow. 
If a weapon is modern and marketed properly, there are chances that prospective clients will get interested and buy.

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## HRK

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.
> 
> And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..
> 
> Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.



mubarka janab mubarka .... for DP

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## Signalian

Oscar said:


> There is no need to put your best tank designed for straight out punching with Armor in head on attacks into a crossfire type ambush game such as most COIN ops are. The PA was smart to stick to sending the TYpe-59s and 69s which have both ample firepower and are generally cheap throwaways into this fray.


Vulnerability in the desert of eastern border was the main reason to keep AK in sindh/punjab, in case IA considered a misadventure again like 2001/2 or as expected in 2008. T-80 alone were not sufficient to cover punjab and sindh. The older tanks need to retire someday and AK will be the backbone of PA as envisioned and will then need to under take all tasks.The newer variants of AK should be given potential to be an all rounder in all spheres of battlefield with upgrades as per client request.

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## MystryMan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.
> 
> And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..
> 
> Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.


The Bajaur Type-59 crew survived?

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## Dazzler



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## DESERT FIGHTER

MystryMan said:


> The Bajaur Type-59 crew survived








There are a lot of lost names in Pakistan's war on terror that did not receive the recognition they deserved or were lost to time. As we remember the brave defenders of Pakistan who upheld the sanctity of the land in 1965, also spare a thought for the brave men who died fighting a war that is not as celebrated.
*You might not have heard of Ris Muhammad Khan*, because he embraced martyrdom at a time when our people chose to side with the TTP rather than Pak Army. When our losses were celebrated, our soldier's funerals were picketed by jeering crowds who welcomed the death of "American Puppets". The media did not give much coverage to our casualties then because no body wanted to hear about them, they were the unwanted soldiers whose motives, faith and death were all subjected to question, however, they fought, continued to do so against overwhelming odds and died a silent death.
Today, a nation expresses gratitude to them, and as these forgotten martyrs are remembered for their sacrifices, I would want people to know of Ris Muhammad Khan, an individual that I knew only by reputation when I landed in Bajaur one fateful day and soon his reputation was consolidated as he proved himself to be a soldier who truly had the gall to stare death square in the eyes and keep on fighting.


*
A lot of people have seen the Brad Pitt starring season hit, “Fury”. The story of Don Collier and his crew facing off against seemingly impossible odds struck a chord with people the world over but whereas that was a work of fiction, there is a story of even greater bravery that is not. Very few know of Pakistan’s own, real life Don Collier; his name is Risaldar Muhammad Khan and this is his story.*

The first time I met him, he came across as a typical Sargodhian Armoured Corp JCO, the type that do justice to the title of “Sardar Sahiban”. To be clear, his being Sargodhian was an initial assessment that stuck with me and to this day, I am not sure if he was actually from Sargodha. His skin was taut, eyes wide and beaming with courage, to complete the package, he also sported a heavy moustache. If there was anyone who could personify cavalry, it was Ris. Muhammad Khan.

My first impression of him was cemented when we were preparing to initiate our first attempt to breach into militant controlled territory. The tank crews had never experienced war before and they had never been taught to expect using tanks in such terrain, they were tentative and unsure. It was under these circumstances that I found myself mounting Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank to lead the column in an encounter that can only be described as fateful. He struck me as a rare breed of soldier who showed complete disregard for the sombre environment and welcomed me on board, he was eager to get in the fight; a fact he demonstrated when his crew laid their gun on my command in a moment’s instant before Muhammad Khan almost jubilantly sounded his ready report in his billowy voice and typical Armoured Corp fashion “Ruddy Sir!”, he shouted each time as he waited for my command to let loose on the enemy.

On another occasion, I was accompanying IGFC, to the line of contact when were ambushed at Nisarabad. The General insisted on travelling with his flag flying and stars visible to rile up the troops, the miscreants also knew they had managed to find an important target and the intensity of fire the enemy laid down seemed to reflect just how terribly determined they were to ensure that they did not let this opportunity slide. However, we were successful in breaking through the ambush despite all their attempts. A single vehicle was hit and along with three individuals, was left stranded at the site of the ambush. The IG made it very clear that he wanted the stranded soldiers to be extricated and the site punished but the tanks were being replenished and it was going to be some time before they would be ready to head out. I stood near the tanks and shouted if there was anyone who would be ready to leave and in response to my challenge, I heard a very familiar voice bellow from one of the tanks “Ruddy Sir”! It was Ris Muhammad Khan once again, he popped out of his cupola with the same determination in his eyes. We took the tank into the heart of the enemy’s ambush, rescued the stranded soldiers and were able to return them to safety despite sustaining three hits from rockets and another from a recoilless rifle. He had won my trust earlier but now he also had my respect.

At Rashakai, brigade tac as well as two units were encircled by the enemy who numbered approximately over 1500 strong. They had pinned down the troops and numerous attempts at linking up with them had proven unsuccessful. It was here that the tankers truly had a chance to demonstrate how invaluable they were to an LIC operation. The terrorists were at a loss as to how they could deal with the tanks, which became the only lines of communication between Rashakai and Khar. They could break through the enemy lines, guns blazing, and carry the injured, ammunition, food and supplies between the encircled troops and headquarters.

On one such cavalry dash, Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank received a hit from a recoilless rifle near Nisarabad, where Muhammad Khan had earlier extricated that stranded crew from. His tank was left immobile and his driver was martyred at the spot. The remaining two tanks of the troop stood by and supported him but eventually even they had to leave to replenish their ammunition and fuel. A determined and fearless attempt to rescue the crew was also made by 2nd Lt Saqib who was considered too young to be trusted with a tank at the time and was thus given the command of an ARV, but the heart of a soldier is never bound by the machine he is limited to, using a smokescreen, Saqib tried to recover the tank or at least save the crew but the intensity of the fire was so great that the men could not be rescued and the ARV had to withdraw again.

In the meanwhile, a Quick Reaction Force(QRF) had been assembled and dispatched from Headquarters to relieve the stranded tank crew. Under the command of the Brigade GSO-3, the QRF put up a fierce fight but eventually had to withdraw unsuccessfully as well after taking an enormous amount of fire, the Brigade GSO-3 was also injured in the attempt. In a last ditch effort before the evening gave way to the pitch darkness of the night, the tanks from Ris. Muhammad Khan’s troop attempted another dash for rescuing the stranded crew and were supported by an effective aerial effort. However, once again, the intense fire discharged by the miscreants from hidden positions and the fast approaching dusk forced the aerial effort to be suspended and the supporting tanks also had to withdraw once again for replenishment. This is the last time that the crew of the stranded tank would be seen alive.

In the small window of time from this moment when the troop withdrew to when he embraced martyrdom, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew exhibited the type of bravery that is rarely seen in entire lifetimes. Sep Raza of 34 Baluch had become separated from the QRF under fire and had fallen behind, Ris Muhammad Khan placed him in the driver’s compartment to protect him from enemy fire while he himself geared up to make his last stand.

The terrorists had surrounded the tank by that time and were preparing to mount, they intended to capture the tank intact and the crew alive in order to be able to use the tank against the Army and be able to train their own tank crews who could then commandeer other tanks that they would try to capture. It was an ambitious plan that rested entirely on the fate of this one tank crew.

Ris. Muhammad Khan told his crew to relax and accept that whatever may come, will come but the least they can do is to die fighting like true men and leave a good account of themselves for their comrades and the enemy. From that moment onwards, Muhammad Khan slid into the commander’s seat and prepared the main gun, whenever the enemy would try to take the tank or assemble to reorganize, he would fire in their direction and force them to disperse. The enemy was becoming frustrated by being denied the opportunity to take the tank as their casualties continued to mount but the tank crew showed no intention of yielding.

Inevitably, the ammunition for the main gun was soon exhausted and it became difficult to engage the enemy at an extended range. Ris. Muhammad Khan moved to using the coaxial machine gun in order to engage the enemy. The enemy were not allowed to raise their head from cover as Muhammad Khan kept a vigilant eye out for them and was determined to keep them away from his tank as long as it was possible.

Muhammad Khan was running out of ammunition and knew that his options were limited. Realizing the gravity of the situation and assessing his best course of action even under such grim circumstances, he kept his wits about and gathered the grenades from the entire tank crew. Then, when the ammunition from his coaxial machine gun had also finished, he waited for the enemy to try to take the tank again before he could attack them with the few hand grenades he had left. One by one, he tossed them out of his cupola and towards the enemy who had already suffered extensive damage to their fighting strength whereas their own attempt at attrition had failed.

Now down only to his personal sidearm, Ris. Muhammad Khan patiently waited for the enemy to open his cupola before he could put up his last moments of resistance against an enemy that he had antagonized for over three hours. He had realized from the very onset that fighting on would mean certain death whereas the enemy would take him and his crew alive if he surrendered his tank but it was beneath his dignity and sense of honour to even consider this option as a possibility. The moment his tank had been hit, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew’s options had always been to become “Shaheed” or “Ghazi”, they were not going to disgrace themselves and their regiment with the unsightly stain of surrender.

The enemy had been exhausted by now, their resolve had been shattered and they were fighting desperately. Out of fear for Muhammad Khan’s tenacity, they dared not approach the tank even after the crew had run out of any sort of ammunition and when they finally did get the confidence to approach the tank, the miscreants could not bring themselves to crack open the hatch and face their tormentors in hand to hand combat. They realized that they could never take this tank, its crew would not allow it, they had fought with everything they had and even if they were to face them, outnumbered as they were, the tank crew would continue fighting on like lions and cause further losses to the miscreants.

With this in mind, as the tank crew waited patiently under the heroic command of Ris. Muhammad Khan to engage their enemy in close combat, the miscreants decided that trying to take the tank intact was no longer worth the losses they had faced and after withdrawing once more, they chose to fire an RPG at the cupola which resulted in the death of the crew but also destroyed the tank and rendered it unusable for the enemy. Their ambition had been crushed by a defiant Muhammad Khan and his valiant crew who had proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that a good fighting force is not made by circumstance, weapons and numerical strength, it is made of the indomitable spirit of men like Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew which included Gunner Ahmed Nawaz, Operator Khalid Saifullah and Driver Rasheed.

Injured Sepoy Raza was taken into custody by terrorists . He was kept captive for 18 months and had been considered martyred during this episode, his return was a surprise for everyone when the enemy released him as a gesture of compromise when the tables had turned and the terrorists faced imminent defeat at Damadola. It was Sep Raza who narrated the exact story of Ris Muhammad Khan’s last stand at Nisarabad, by that time, Muhammad Khan had already been awarded a Tamgha-e-Basalat posthumously.


50th Defence Day of Pakistan: Act of Valour- Risaldar Muhammad Khan - Eurasia News. ЕВРАЗИЯ - Все новости

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 451949
> 
> 
> There are a lot of lost names in Pakistan's war on terror that did not receive the recognition they deserved or were lost to time. As we remember the brave defenders of Pakistan who upheld the sanctity of the land in 1965, also spare a thought for the brave men who died fighting a war that is not as celebrated.
> *You might not have heard of Ris Muhammad Khan*, because he embraced martyrdom at a time when our people chose to side with the TTP rather than Pak Army. When our losses were celebrated, our soldier's funerals were picketed by jeering crowds who welcomed the death of "American Puppets". The media did not give much coverage to our casualties then because no body wanted to hear about them, they were the unwanted soldiers whose motives, faith and death were all subjected to question, however, they fought, continued to do so against overwhelming odds and died a silent death.
> Today, a nation expresses gratitude to them, and as these forgotten martyrs are remembered for their sacrifices, I would want people to know of Ris Muhammad Khan, an individual that I knew only by reputation when I landed in Bajaur one fateful day and soon his reputation was consolidated as he proved himself to be a soldier who truly had the gall to stare death square in the eyes and keep on fighting.
> 
> 
> *
> A lot of people have seen the Brad Pitt starring season hit, “Fury”. The story of Don Collier and his crew facing off against seemingly impossible odds struck a chord with people the world over but whereas that was a work of fiction, there is a story of even greater bravery that is not. Very few know of Pakistan’s own, real life Don Collier; his name is Risaldar Muhammad Khan and this is his story.*
> 
> The first time I met him, he came across as a typical Sargodhian Armoured Corp JCO, the type that do justice to the title of “Sardar Sahiban”. To be clear, his being Sargodhian was an initial assessment that stuck with me and to this day, I am not sure if he was actually from Sargodha. His skin was taut, eyes wide and beaming with courage, to complete the package, he also sported a heavy moustache. If there was anyone who could personify cavalry, it was Ris. Muhammad Khan.
> 
> My first impression of him was cemented when we were preparing to initiate our first attempt to breach into militant controlled territory. The tank crews had never experienced war before and they had never been taught to expect using tanks in such terrain, they were tentative and unsure. It was under these circumstances that I found myself mounting Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank to lead the column in an encounter that can only be described as fateful. He struck me as a rare breed of soldier who showed complete disregard for the sombre environment and welcomed me on board, he was eager to get in the fight; a fact he demonstrated when his crew laid their gun on my command in a moment’s instant before Muhammad Khan almost jubilantly sounded his ready report in his billowy voice and typical Armoured Corp fashion “Ruddy Sir!”, he shouted each time as he waited for my command to let loose on the enemy.
> 
> On another occasion, I was accompanying IGFC, to the line of contact when were ambushed at Nisarabad. The General insisted on travelling with his flag flying and stars visible to rile up the troops, the miscreants also knew they had managed to find an important target and the intensity of fire the enemy laid down seemed to reflect just how terribly determined they were to ensure that they did not let this opportunity slide. However, we were successful in breaking through the ambush despite all their attempts. A single vehicle was hit and along with three individuals, was left stranded at the site of the ambush. The IG made it very clear that he wanted the stranded soldiers to be extricated and the site punished but the tanks were being replenished and it was going to be some time before they would be ready to head out. I stood near the tanks and shouted if there was anyone who would be ready to leave and in response to my challenge, I heard a very familiar voice bellow from one of the tanks “Ruddy Sir”! It was Ris Muhammad Khan once again, he popped out of his cupola with the same determination in his eyes. We took the tank into the heart of the enemy’s ambush, rescued the stranded soldiers and were able to return them to safety despite sustaining three hits from rockets and another from a recoilless rifle. He had won my trust earlier but now he also had my respect.
> 
> At Rashakai, brigade tac as well as two units were encircled by the enemy who numbered approximately over 1500 strong. They had pinned down the troops and numerous attempts at linking up with them had proven unsuccessful. It was here that the tankers truly had a chance to demonstrate how invaluable they were to an LIC operation. The terrorists were at a loss as to how they could deal with the tanks, which became the only lines of communication between Rashakai and Khar. They could break through the enemy lines, guns blazing, and carry the injured, ammunition, food and supplies between the encircled troops and headquarters.
> 
> On one such cavalry dash, Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank received a hit from a recoilless rifle near Nisarabad, where Muhammad Khan had earlier extricated that stranded crew from. His tank was left immobile and his driver was martyred at the spot. The remaining two tanks of the troop stood by and supported him but eventually even they had to leave to replenish their ammunition and fuel. A determined and fearless attempt to rescue the crew was also made by 2nd Lt Saqib who was considered too young to be trusted with a tank at the time and was thus given the command of an ARV, but the heart of a soldier is never bound by the machine he is limited to, using a smokescreen, Saqib tried to recover the tank or at least save the crew but the intensity of the fire was so great that the men could not be rescued and the ARV had to withdraw again.
> 
> In the meanwhile, a Quick Reaction Force(QRF) had been assembled and dispatched from Headquarters to relieve the stranded tank crew. Under the command of the Brigade GSO-3, the QRF put up a fierce fight but eventually had to withdraw unsuccessfully as well after taking an enormous amount of fire, the Brigade GSO-3 was also injured in the attempt. In a last ditch effort before the evening gave way to the pitch darkness of the night, the tanks from Ris. Muhammad Khan’s troop attempted another dash for rescuing the stranded crew and were supported by an effective aerial effort. However, once again, the intense fire discharged by the miscreants from hidden positions and the fast approaching dusk forced the aerial effort to be suspended and the supporting tanks also had to withdraw once again for replenishment. This is the last time that the crew of the stranded tank would be seen alive.
> 
> In the small window of time from this moment when the troop withdrew to when he embraced martyrdom, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew exhibited the type of bravery that is rarely seen in entire lifetimes. Sep Raza of 34 Baluch had become separated from the QRF under fire and had fallen behind, Ris Muhammad Khan placed him in the driver’s compartment to protect him from enemy fire while he himself geared up to make his last stand.
> 
> The terrorists had surrounded the tank by that time and were preparing to mount, they intended to capture the tank intact and the crew alive in order to be able to use the tank against the Army and be able to train their own tank crews who could then commandeer other tanks that they would try to capture. It was an ambitious plan that rested entirely on the fate of this one tank crew.
> 
> Ris. Muhammad Khan told his crew to relax and accept that whatever may come, will come but the least they can do is to die fighting like true men and leave a good account of themselves for their comrades and the enemy. From that moment onwards, Muhammad Khan slid into the commander’s seat and prepared the main gun, whenever the enemy would try to take the tank or assemble to reorganize, he would fire in their direction and force them to disperse. The enemy was becoming frustrated by being denied the opportunity to take the tank as their casualties continued to mount but the tank crew showed no intention of yielding.
> 
> Inevitably, the ammunition for the main gun was soon exhausted and it became difficult to engage the enemy at an extended range. Ris. Muhammad Khan moved to using the coaxial machine gun in order to engage the enemy. The enemy were not allowed to raise their head from cover as Muhammad Khan kept a vigilant eye out for them and was determined to keep them away from his tank as long as it was possible.
> 
> Muhammad Khan was running out of ammunition and knew that his options were limited. Realizing the gravity of the situation and assessing his best course of action even under such grim circumstances, he kept his wits about and gathered the grenades from the entire tank crew. Then, when the ammunition from his coaxial machine gun had also finished, he waited for the enemy to try to take the tank again before he could attack them with the few hand grenades he had left. One by one, he tossed them out of his cupola and towards the enemy who had already suffered extensive damage to their fighting strength whereas their own attempt at attrition had failed.
> 
> Now down only to his personal sidearm, Ris. Muhammad Khan patiently waited for the enemy to open his cupola before he could put up his last moments of resistance against an enemy that he had antagonized for over three hours. He had realized from the very onset that fighting on would mean certain death whereas the enemy would take him and his crew alive if he surrendered his tank but it was beneath his dignity and sense of honour to even consider this option as a possibility. The moment his tank had been hit, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew’s options had always been to become “Shaheed” or “Ghazi”, they were not going to disgrace themselves and their regiment with the unsightly stain of surrender.
> 
> The enemy had been exhausted by now, their resolve had been shattered and they were fighting desperately. Out of fear for Muhammad Khan’s tenacity, they dared not approach the tank even after the crew had run out of any sort of ammunition and when they finally did get the confidence to approach the tank, the miscreants could not bring themselves to crack open the hatch and face their tormentors in hand to hand combat. They realized that they could never take this tank, its crew would not allow it, they had fought with everything they had and even if they were to face them, outnumbered as they were, the tank crew would continue fighting on like lions and cause further losses to the miscreants.
> 
> With this in mind, as the tank crew waited patiently under the heroic command of Ris. Muhammad Khan to engage their enemy in close combat, the miscreants decided that trying to take the tank intact was no longer worth the losses they had faced and after withdrawing once more, they chose to fire an RPG at the cupola which resulted in the death of the crew but also destroyed the tank and rendered it unusable for the enemy. Their ambition had been crushed by a defiant Muhammad Khan and his valiant crew who had proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that a good fighting force is not made by circumstance, weapons and numerical strength, it is made of the indomitable spirit of men like Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew which included Gunner Ahmed Nawaz, Operator Khalid Saifullah and Driver Rasheed.
> 
> Injured Sepoy Raza was taken into custody by terrorists . He was kept captive for 18 months and had been considered martyred during this episode, his return was a surprise for everyone when the enemy released him as a gesture of compromise when the tables had turned and the terrorists faced imminent defeat at Damadola. It was Sep Raza who narrated the exact story of Ris Muhammad Khan’s last stand at Nisarabad, by that time, Muhammad Khan had already been awarded a Tamgha-e-Basalat posthumously.
> 
> 
> 50th Defence Day of Pakistan: Act of Valour- Risaldar Muhammad Khan - Eurasia News. ЕВРАЗИЯ - Все новости


@Ulla @Signalian @Zibago @war&peace

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## Army research

django said:


> @Ulla @Signalian @Zibago @war&peace


A lost hero like this now found, deserves the nishan e haider, this is nothing short of it. If times then did not allow it , now is the time, this would give new hope to the new generation, a hero of the new war. I would like to call on this forum to try to make this possible in some way

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## war&peace

django said:


> @Ulla @Signalian @Zibago @war&peace


It is heart wrenching to read about them but I'm sure they will inshAllah get a bigger reward from Almighty Allah. Thanks for tagging sir and bringing such tales of bravery, loyalty and sacrifce

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## HRK

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 451949
> 
> 
> There are a lot of lost names in Pakistan's war on terror that did not receive the recognition they deserved or were lost to time. As we remember the brave defenders of Pakistan who upheld the sanctity of the land in 1965, also spare a thought for the brave men who died fighting a war that is not as celebrated.
> *You might not have heard of Ris Muhammad Khan*, because he embraced martyrdom at a time when our people chose to side with the TTP rather than Pak Army. When our losses were celebrated, our soldier's funerals were picketed by jeering crowds who welcomed the death of "American Puppets". The media did not give much coverage to our casualties then because no body wanted to hear about them, they were the unwanted soldiers whose motives, faith and death were all subjected to question, however, they fought, continued to do so against overwhelming odds and died a silent death.
> Today, a nation expresses gratitude to them, and as these forgotten martyrs are remembered for their sacrifices, I would want people to know of Ris Muhammad Khan, an individual that I knew only by reputation when I landed in Bajaur one fateful day and soon his reputation was consolidated as he proved himself to be a soldier who truly had the gall to stare death square in the eyes and keep on fighting.
> 
> 
> *
> A lot of people have seen the Brad Pitt starring season hit, “Fury”. The story of Don Collier and his crew facing off against seemingly impossible odds struck a chord with people the world over but whereas that was a work of fiction, there is a story of even greater bravery that is not. Very few know of Pakistan’s own, real life Don Collier; his name is Risaldar Muhammad Khan and this is his story.*
> 
> The first time I met him, he came across as a typical Sargodhian Armoured Corp JCO, the type that do justice to the title of “Sardar Sahiban”. To be clear, his being Sargodhian was an initial assessment that stuck with me and to this day, I am not sure if he was actually from Sargodha. His skin was taut, eyes wide and beaming with courage, to complete the package, he also sported a heavy moustache. If there was anyone who could personify cavalry, it was Ris. Muhammad Khan.
> 
> My first impression of him was cemented when we were preparing to initiate our first attempt to breach into militant controlled territory. The tank crews had never experienced war before and they had never been taught to expect using tanks in such terrain, they were tentative and unsure. It was under these circumstances that I found myself mounting Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank to lead the column in an encounter that can only be described as fateful. He struck me as a rare breed of soldier who showed complete disregard for the sombre environment and welcomed me on board, he was eager to get in the fight; a fact he demonstrated when his crew laid their gun on my command in a moment’s instant before Muhammad Khan almost jubilantly sounded his ready report in his billowy voice and typical Armoured Corp fashion “Ruddy Sir!”, he shouted each time as he waited for my command to let loose on the enemy.
> 
> On another occasion, I was accompanying IGFC, to the line of contact when were ambushed at Nisarabad. The General insisted on travelling with his flag flying and stars visible to rile up the troops, the miscreants also knew they had managed to find an important target and the intensity of fire the enemy laid down seemed to reflect just how terribly determined they were to ensure that they did not let this opportunity slide. However, we were successful in breaking through the ambush despite all their attempts. A single vehicle was hit and along with three individuals, was left stranded at the site of the ambush. The IG made it very clear that he wanted the stranded soldiers to be extricated and the site punished but the tanks were being replenished and it was going to be some time before they would be ready to head out. I stood near the tanks and shouted if there was anyone who would be ready to leave and in response to my challenge, I heard a very familiar voice bellow from one of the tanks “Ruddy Sir”! It was Ris Muhammad Khan once again, he popped out of his cupola with the same determination in his eyes. We took the tank into the heart of the enemy’s ambush, rescued the stranded soldiers and were able to return them to safety despite sustaining three hits from rockets and another from a recoilless rifle. He had won my trust earlier but now he also had my respect.
> 
> At Rashakai, brigade tac as well as two units were encircled by the enemy who numbered approximately over 1500 strong. They had pinned down the troops and numerous attempts at linking up with them had proven unsuccessful. It was here that the tankers truly had a chance to demonstrate how invaluable they were to an LIC operation. The terrorists were at a loss as to how they could deal with the tanks, which became the only lines of communication between Rashakai and Khar. They could break through the enemy lines, guns blazing, and carry the injured, ammunition, food and supplies between the encircled troops and headquarters.
> 
> On one such cavalry dash, Ris Muhammad Khan’s tank received a hit from a recoilless rifle near Nisarabad, where Muhammad Khan had earlier extricated that stranded crew from. His tank was left immobile and his driver was martyred at the spot. The remaining two tanks of the troop stood by and supported him but eventually even they had to leave to replenish their ammunition and fuel. A determined and fearless attempt to rescue the crew was also made by 2nd Lt Saqib who was considered too young to be trusted with a tank at the time and was thus given the command of an ARV, but the heart of a soldier is never bound by the machine he is limited to, using a smokescreen, Saqib tried to recover the tank or at least save the crew but the intensity of the fire was so great that the men could not be rescued and the ARV had to withdraw again.
> 
> In the meanwhile, a Quick Reaction Force(QRF) had been assembled and dispatched from Headquarters to relieve the stranded tank crew. Under the command of the Brigade GSO-3, the QRF put up a fierce fight but eventually had to withdraw unsuccessfully as well after taking an enormous amount of fire, the Brigade GSO-3 was also injured in the attempt. In a last ditch effort before the evening gave way to the pitch darkness of the night, the tanks from Ris. Muhammad Khan’s troop attempted another dash for rescuing the stranded crew and were supported by an effective aerial effort. However, once again, the intense fire discharged by the miscreants from hidden positions and the fast approaching dusk forced the aerial effort to be suspended and the supporting tanks also had to withdraw once again for replenishment. This is the last time that the crew of the stranded tank would be seen alive.
> 
> In the small window of time from this moment when the troop withdrew to when he embraced martyrdom, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew exhibited the type of bravery that is rarely seen in entire lifetimes. Sep Raza of 34 Baluch had become separated from the QRF under fire and had fallen behind, Ris Muhammad Khan placed him in the driver’s compartment to protect him from enemy fire while he himself geared up to make his last stand.
> 
> The terrorists had surrounded the tank by that time and were preparing to mount, they intended to capture the tank intact and the crew alive in order to be able to use the tank against the Army and be able to train their own tank crews who could then commandeer other tanks that they would try to capture. It was an ambitious plan that rested entirely on the fate of this one tank crew.
> 
> Ris. Muhammad Khan told his crew to relax and accept that whatever may come, will come but the least they can do is to die fighting like true men and leave a good account of themselves for their comrades and the enemy. From that moment onwards, Muhammad Khan slid into the commander’s seat and prepared the main gun, whenever the enemy would try to take the tank or assemble to reorganize, he would fire in their direction and force them to disperse. The enemy was becoming frustrated by being denied the opportunity to take the tank as their casualties continued to mount but the tank crew showed no intention of yielding.
> 
> Inevitably, the ammunition for the main gun was soon exhausted and it became difficult to engage the enemy at an extended range. Ris. Muhammad Khan moved to using the coaxial machine gun in order to engage the enemy. The enemy were not allowed to raise their head from cover as Muhammad Khan kept a vigilant eye out for them and was determined to keep them away from his tank as long as it was possible.
> 
> Muhammad Khan was running out of ammunition and knew that his options were limited. Realizing the gravity of the situation and assessing his best course of action even under such grim circumstances, he kept his wits about and gathered the grenades from the entire tank crew. Then, when the ammunition from his coaxial machine gun had also finished, he waited for the enemy to try to take the tank again before he could attack them with the few hand grenades he had left. One by one, he tossed them out of his cupola and towards the enemy who had already suffered extensive damage to their fighting strength whereas their own attempt at attrition had failed.
> 
> Now down only to his personal sidearm, Ris. Muhammad Khan patiently waited for the enemy to open his cupola before he could put up his last moments of resistance against an enemy that he had antagonized for over three hours. He had realized from the very onset that fighting on would mean certain death whereas the enemy would take him and his crew alive if he surrendered his tank but it was beneath his dignity and sense of honour to even consider this option as a possibility. The moment his tank had been hit, Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew’s options had always been to become “Shaheed” or “Ghazi”, they were not going to disgrace themselves and their regiment with the unsightly stain of surrender.
> 
> The enemy had been exhausted by now, their resolve had been shattered and they were fighting desperately. Out of fear for Muhammad Khan’s tenacity, they dared not approach the tank even after the crew had run out of any sort of ammunition and when they finally did get the confidence to approach the tank, the miscreants could not bring themselves to crack open the hatch and face their tormentors in hand to hand combat. They realized that they could never take this tank, its crew would not allow it, they had fought with everything they had and even if they were to face them, outnumbered as they were, the tank crew would continue fighting on like lions and cause further losses to the miscreants.
> 
> With this in mind, as the tank crew waited patiently under the heroic command of Ris. Muhammad Khan to engage their enemy in close combat, the miscreants decided that trying to take the tank intact was no longer worth the losses they had faced and after withdrawing once more, they chose to fire an RPG at the cupola which resulted in the death of the crew but also destroyed the tank and rendered it unusable for the enemy. Their ambition had been crushed by a defiant Muhammad Khan and his valiant crew who had proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that a good fighting force is not made by circumstance, weapons and numerical strength, it is made of the indomitable spirit of men like Ris. Muhammad Khan and his crew which included Gunner Ahmed Nawaz, Operator Khalid Saifullah and Driver Rasheed.
> 
> Injured Sepoy Raza was taken into custody by terrorists . He was kept captive for 18 months and had been considered martyred during this episode, his return was a surprise for everyone when the enemy released him as a gesture of compromise when the tables had turned and the terrorists faced imminent defeat at Damadola. It was Sep Raza who narrated the exact story of Ris Muhammad Khan’s last stand at Nisarabad, by that time, Muhammad Khan had already been awarded a Tamgha-e-Basalat posthumously.
> 
> 
> 50th Defence Day of Pakistan: Act of Valour- Risaldar Muhammad Khan - Eurasia News. ЕВРАЗИЯ - Все новости


If I remember correctly the tank was not Al-Khalid .... but T-59/69 or Al-Zarar

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## DESERT FIGHTER

HRK said:


> If I remember correctly the tank was not Al-Khalid .... but T-59/69 or Al-Zarar


Yes, Type 59/69.

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## Dazzler

New round has passed trials.

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## Dazzler



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Armchair-General

https://carepvtltd.com/Electronics/cms.php?id=Solid_State_Autoloader
Al-Khalid Autoloader


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## Tipu7

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967358567857737728

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## Dazzler

Got some interesting news on Al-Khalid FCS and autotracking system with pics. Quite revealing indeed.

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## GriffinsRule

Dazzler said:


> Got some interesting news on Al-Khalid FCS and autotracking system with pics. Quite revealing indeed.



Care to share or just teasing us?

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## Dazzler

GriffinsRule said:


> Care to share or just teasing us?


Will do so soon. Working on it.

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## Dazzler

Autotracking using thermal imager at night....










Commander's control panel to turn on or off autotracking and other FCS functions.









Atotracking control module

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## Armchair-General

Why don't we employ spaced armor coupled with ERA like on the MBT-2000 on our Al-Khalid:








This will offer far better protection and ERA coverage.

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## Armchair-General

Armchair-General said:


> Why don't we employ spaced armor coupled with ERA like on the MBT-2000 on our Al-Khalid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will offer far better protection and ERA coverage.


Hell even take a look at the Spaced, Composite and Reactive Armor on the Type-96B:

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## khanasifm



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## Dazzler

Firing while reversing at high speed..







Old prototype, equipped with German MTU 883 engine, notice the typical twin exhaust of the engine.

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## Dazzler

The armored fist ready to confront...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> The armored fist ready to confront...
> 
> View attachment 460675


Its actually “Mailed Fist”.

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## fanna4paf2

AL KHALID TANK ENTRY


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## MZ-PDF

What is the difference between 
Al-Khalid
Al-Khalid 1
Al-Khalid 2

And when will Pakistan start producing Al-Khalid 2?


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## MZ-PDF

This one is my favorite.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> Autotracking using thermal imager at night....
> 
> 
> View attachment 459132
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Commander's control panel to turn on or off autotracking and other FCS functions.
> 
> 
> View attachment 459133
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atotracking control module
> 
> View attachment 459136


So the auto tracking can be turned off. Whats interesting abt it dear? what am i missing?
We have known abt it being these as part of FCS so only thing new can be that turning on/off feature.

Ok i do think i am missing something!!

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## muhammadali233

Interesting News on the al khalid engines

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## airmarshal

in terms of capability and survivability, where does MBT-2000 stand? Close to T-72 or to T-90?


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## Thorough Pro

There is no Al-Khalid 1, the correct description is Al-Khalid I, Letter I for "Improved".




MZ-PDF said:


> What is the difference between
> Al-Khalid
> Al-Khalid 1
> Al-Khalid 2
> 
> And when will Pakistan start producing Al-Khalid 2?


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## Armchair-General



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## Armchair-General

One thing I noticed when I saw the Al Khalid and T80ud at the end of the 23 March parade was that their side skirts are not metal but rather some form of cardboard ish material (composite?).


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## Bossman

Armchair-General said:


> One thing I noticed when I saw the Al Khalid and T80ud at the end of the 23 March parade was that their side skirts are not metal but rather some form of cardboard ish material (composite?).


Rubber

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## khanasifm

http://www.military-stuff.org/megafactories-the-m1-tank-upgrade-programme/


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## Mrc

Pakistan shud look into active protection systems for alkhalid I


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## Arsalan

Armchair-General said:


> One thing I noticed when I saw the Al Khalid and T80ud at the end of the 23 March parade was that their side skirts are not metal but rather some form of cardboard ish material (composite?).


Are you talking about this part?






If so, then yes, it is not all metal there.


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## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> So the auto tracking can be turned off. Whats interesting abt it dear? what am i missing?
> We have known abt it being these as part of FCS so only thing new can be that turning on/off feature.
> 
> Ok i do think i am missing something!!



Autotracking and autolocking on the target using IFF sensors is one of the standout features that make this tank special. This feature can be used in auto and semi auto mode depending on how the commander wants to employ it. 

It can be used with day sight (TV channel) night sight (thermal imager) and adverse weather conditions and can be turned off when not needed.

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## Dazzler



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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 487033



whats special here?


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## Dazzler

Inception-06 said:


> whats special here?


Plates over the turret are not ERA, rather composites.

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Plates over the turret are not ERA, rather composites.


 and keep on !


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## Dreamer.

Dazzler said:


> Plates over the turret are not ERA, rather composites.


Kindly explain the significance of that for us simpletons.

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## Safriz

Armchair-General said:


> One thing I noticed when I saw the Al Khalid and T80ud at the end of the 23 March parade was that their side skirts are not metal but rather some form of cardboard ish material (composite?).


These are dust covers. Mainly installed to stop dust being whipped up in the air and then sucked into the engine. Rubber suffices, metal not needed.

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## Dazzler

Dreamer. said:


> Kindly explain the significance of that for us simpletons.



Adds close to 300 mm of protection on the frontal turret of the tank. Decent protection in the 30 degree arc.

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Adds close to 300 mm of protection on the frontal turret of the tank. Decent protection in the 30 degree arc.



than whats the function of the T-80UD front and turret skirts ?


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## Dreamer.

Dazzler said:


> Adds close to 300 mm of protection on the frontal turret of the tank. Decent protection in the 30 degree arc.


Thanks, But I wanted to know how is composite plates better compared to ERA?


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## Dazzler

Dreamer. said:


> Thanks, But I wanted to know how is composite plates better compared to ERA?



ERA has shorter shelf life, composite plates have none. Hence, they are used commonly during exercises and peace time.



Inception-06 said:


> than whats the function of the T-80UD front and turret skirts ?



protection from dust and reduce thermal signature of the tank. The Alkhalid achieves it by using anti-neutron liner at certain places all over the tank especially at the engine bay.

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> ERA has shorter shelf life, composite plates have none. Hence, they are used commonly during exercises and peace time.
> 
> 
> 
> protection from dust and reduce thermal signature of the tank. The Alkhalid achieves it by using anti-neutron liner at certain places all over the tank especially at the engine bay.



That's good to know thx, do you think Alkhalid should have also the front skirt for the dust protection? Do you think Alkhalid need also extra turret skirts, like the T-80UD and whats about composite plates all around the Turret? Like the T-90 series!


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## Dazzler

Inception-06 said:


> That's good to know thx, do you think Alkhalid should have also the front skirt for the dust protection? Do you think Alkhalid need also extra turret skirts, like the T-80UD and whats about composite plates all around the Turret? Like the T-90 series!


T-90 does not have composite plates all around, rather ERA plates. 

Adding rubber skirts is not big deal, it can be added to any mbt.

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> T-90 does not have composite plates all around, rather ERA plates.
> 
> Adding rubber skirts is not big deal, it can be added to any mbt.



Sorry, it's my fault, I should have asked is it necessary that the Alkhalid, should have these extra Items? The Al-zarrar Prototype, for example, had the turret skirts, so it must have been discussed, but I don't understand why it was dropped down, that out of my logical.


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## Dazzler

Inception-06 said:


> Sorry, it's my fault, I should have asked is it necessary that the Alkhalid, should have these extra Items? The Al-zarrar Prototype, for example, had the turret skirts, so it must have been discussed, but I don't understand why it was dropped down, that out of my logical.



Can be added if needed. No big deal.

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## Inception-06

@Signalian @django only for you guys! Notice the tank Excavator, it helps the Tank to dig in!

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## Dazzler

Development of Al khalid..

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> @Signalian @django only for you guys! Notice the tank Excavator, it helps the Tank to dig in!
> 
> View attachment 490364
> View attachment 490365


Good find Buddy  
On a serious note, i hope it never digs in coz armored maneuver warfare is non-existent in sub continent armies.

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## Dazzler

Muzzle reference system notifies the tank crew of barrel bending. The FCS takes the difference into accounts to ensure precise firing.

The red dot within the yellow circle (third pic) means zero degree LOS is achieved, allows the gunner to destroy the target with precision. If the empty yellow circle appears, desired LOS is not achieved yet.

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## shawn52

Enemies look our strength Al Khalid Tank


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## Dazzler

engines, transmissions and gearboxes for Al khalid-1 reached. Reversible transmission can be seen here..

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## Dazzler




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## Dazzler

Though the picture is old, this was the first time HIT admitted that third gen Sagem/ Safran Matis thermal imager was also being used in Alkhalids alongside second gen Catherine FCs.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Just an old video of AK with mine ploughs.

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## Dazzler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Just an old video of AK with mine ploughs.
> 
> View attachment 493734
> View attachment 493735
> View attachment 493736
> View attachment 493737
> View attachment 493738



Argo mine ploughs are qualified as shown in the video and are in active service.

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## Dazzler

6td-2 being rebuid..

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## Path-Finder

Dazzler said:


> 6td-2 being rebuid..
> 
> View attachment 495416


does rebuild mean repair or inhouse parts used to repair the engine? like using machining and tooling!

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Just an old video of AK with mine ploughs.
> 
> View attachment 493734
> View attachment 493735
> View attachment 493736
> View attachment 493737
> View attachment 493738


I think this AK unit is deployed in 13th Armored Brigade.

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## Super Falcon

hope more protection should be brought up for this backbone of our armour division

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## Cuirassier

I strongly believe that 9 armoured regiments are equipped with Al Khalid, bringing it's numbers in the fleet to 410-415, which is near the estimate given by IISS.

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## Zarvan

We should get engine technology from Ukraine and by the way AL KHALID I has arrived on venue of IDEAS 

@Path-Finder @Horus

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## mingle

Dazzler said:


> 6td-2 being rebuid..
> 
> View attachment 495416


He is japanese Ambassador. What he is doing at HIT?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Argo mine ploughs are qualified as shown in the video and are in active service.


Produced in house... also confirmed by old MODP Report (plz dont ask for the link bro... its alot of work).

The video is from trials though.


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## RangeMaster

Al-khalid 1 getting ready for IDEAS 2018. New cameo is interesting.
(Via Ahmed Ibrahim *Tipu7* Twitter)


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## syed_yusuf

RangeMaster said:


> Al-khalid 1 getting ready for IDEAS 2018. New cameo is interesting.
> (Via Ahmed Ibrahim *Tipu7* Twitter)


This not an official camo


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## Signalian

RangeMaster said:


> Al-khalid 1 getting ready for IDEAS 2018. New cameo is interesting.
> (Via Ahmed Ibrahim *Tipu7* Twitter)





syed_yusuf said:


> This not an official camo



seen T-85 deployed in same camo


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## STRANGER BIRD

*Al Khalid 1 at IDEAS 2018*

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## Zarvan

@Horus @Dazzler @Path-Finder @Arsalan @Oscar

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## Foxtrot Delta

Zarvan said:


> @Horus @Dazzler @Path-Finder @Arsalan @Oscar



Priceless video! And seeing this i understand its armor is very very durable.

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## Zarvan

One piece of advice never shake hand with crew of AL KHALID Tank


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## Hassan Guy

Zarvan said:


> One piece of advice never shake hand with crew of AL KHALID Tank


do tell why


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## Incog_nito

So what about Al-Khalid program is it running or stopped? I think VT-4s might be AK-IIs


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## Nasr

I believe the slow down in AK production and development was due to shortage of funds.


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> One piece of advice never shake hand with crew of AL KHALID Tank



Oil leaks and grease marks are common for all tank crews around the world.

AK-1 with IR/ Thermal stealth coating..

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## Fieldmarshal

Ghazwa1 said:


> I believe the slow down in AK production and development was due to shortage of funds.


I have said it earlier but I will say it again.
Their is no delay or slow down in production. But on the contrary we have the highest production for the last couple of years.
At the same time hmc is being retooled n it will double the rate of production.

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## GriffinsRule

Fieldmarshal said:


> I have said it earlier but I will say it again.
> Their is no delay or slow down in production. But on the contrary we have the highest production for the last couple of years.
> At the same time hmc is being retooled n it will double the rate of production.



You can say it as much as you like but the officials at HIT themselves are on record contradicting you and stating the slow production is due to the small allocation in the budget.


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## graphican

Fieldmarshal said:


> I have said it earlier but I will say it again.
> Their is no delay or slow down in production. But on the contrary we have the highest production for the last couple of years.
> At the same time hmc is being retooled n it will double the rate of production.


What is the annual production rate at the moment. Is that somewhere between 30-50 units ?


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## Fieldmarshal

graphican said:


> What is the annual production rate at the moment. Is that somewhere between 30-50 units ?


20-30 units

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## Arsalan

Fieldmarshal said:


> I have said it earlier but I will say it again.
> Their is no delay or slow down in production. But on the contrary we have the highest production for the last couple of years.
> At the same time hmc is being retooled n it will double the rate of production.


HMC wont add any numbers

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## gangsta_rap



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## Fieldmarshal

Arsalan said:


> HMC wont add any numbers


3 regiments worth of Ak have already been handed over since 2017 and the production is on going at full tilt.


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## Cool_Soldier

VT4 might soon join PAK army's equipment.
Alkhalid 2 will be something new generation Tank as it is still underdevelopment for many years.


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## Zulfiqar

Fieldmarshal said:


> 3 regiments worth of Ak have already been handed over since 2017 and the production is on going at full tilt.



A regiment is equivalent of 44 tanks. I don't think those many have been manufactured.


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## Maxpane

good to hear that Al khali is doing fine. hope we can export it like jf 17


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## Nasr

Is it just me, or do I detect a decline in Pakistan Army's progress of upgrading Al-Khalids? Are they in two minds about going for another tank? Because when Al-Khalids were revealed, I got the impression that Pakistan Army was finally on course to replacing all the old era T-59s/T-69s with Al-Khalids. By any estimates, there should have been a target of at least 2000 or more Al-Khalids produced, inclusive of newer variants Al-Khalid Is and Al-Khalid IIs. With regards to india, they have managed to churn out a sizable number of T-90 tanks and are now upgrading them as well. That should serve as a wake up call for Pakistan Army. Also, personally, I would advise Pakistan Army against opting for Ukrainian Oplot tanks. They are in a pretty volatile state right now, and run the risk of a shooting war with Russia. So ordering Oplots would end up as a disastrous decision. Best options are to focus on the development and maturity of Al-Khalid, it's mass production (2000-3000 tanks) and VT-4s (1000-2000 tanks). Pakistan Army ought to phase out all T-59s/T-69s altogether. In 10 years time, if they end up with 4000 new generation tanks, then that would be a huge accomplishment.


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## Fieldmarshal

Ghazwa1 said:


> Is it just me, or do I detect a decline in Pakistan Army's progress of upgrading Al-Khalids? Are they in two minds about going for another tank? Because when Al-Khalids were revealed, I got the impression that Pakistan Army was finally on course to replacing all the old era T-59s/T-69s with Al-Khalids. By any estimates, there should have been a target of at least 2000 or more Al-Khalids produced, inclusive of newer variants Al-Khalid Is and Al-Khalid IIs. With regards to india, they have managed to churn out a sizable number of T-90 tanks and are now upgrading them as well. That should serve as a wake up call for Pakistan Army. Also, personally, I would advise Pakistan Army against opting for Ukrainian Oplot tanks. They are in a pretty volatile state right now, and run the risk of a shooting war with Russia. So ordering Oplots would end up as a disastrous decision. Best options are to focus on the development and maturity of Al-Khalid, it's mass production (2000-3000 tanks) and VT-4s (1000-2000 tanks). Pakistan Army ought to phase out all T-59s/T-69s altogether. In 10 years time, if they end up with 4000 new generation tanks, then that would be a huge accomplishment.


PA has phased out the T-59/69 some years ago.
They have been transferred to F.C.
Al Khalid program had stagnated during the zardari era due to lack of funds, but since than is back on track and is going great guns n at full tilt.

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## Amigator

Fieldmarshal said:


> PA has phased out the T-59/69 some years ago.
> They have been transferred to F.C.
> Al Khalid program had stagnated during the zardari era due to lack of funds, but since than is back on track and is going great guns n at full tilt.


Are you an inside man? If yes then why not a positive rating so far


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## mingle

Amigator said:


> Are you an inside man? If yes then why not a positive rating so far


That transformation started when Mush was president.FC used tanks started from Bajur operations onwards.

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## niaz

Here is the article from an Indian publication.

Quote

Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.

Unquote
http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/


Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other hand cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.

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## Dazzler

niaz said:


> Here is the article from an Indian publication.
> 
> Quote
> 
> Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.
> 
> Unquote
> http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/
> 
> 
> Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.
> 
> Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.



The entire article is full of inaccuracies and false info. A piece of trash at best. 

Like all programs, the Al khalid program also had its share of mishaps but the program is still running and an updated version is available. As for the engine, both Al khalid and t-80UD use the same powerplant that has shown excellent performance in the desert. As for maintainability, it is being maintained, rebuilt at HIT's subsidiaries for many years. 

Lastly, each Al khalid costs $3 million per piece but the offered capability is definitely better than t-90S. Lack of finance is the only problem.

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## HRK

niaz said:


> As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million


@niaz shaib literally the article you posted from idrw.org is worth less than trash, the above quoted part is just one example, btw idrw website is worst source for many reasons just follow it for few day you will yourself realise this

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## Signalian

niaz said:


> Here is the article from an Indian publication.
> 
> Quote
> 
> Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.
> 
> Unquote
> http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/
> 
> 
> Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.
> 
> Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other hand cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.



Every regiment using the AK has praised this MBT. Many of such units have been using Type-85 III and Type-59 II, before converting to AK. If AK's design was such a flop then AK-I wouldn't have seen the light of the day. Military doesn't have funds to induct hundreds of MBT's on mere "ego" ! There have been no break downs in the exercises conducted using Ak's. The AZ numbers of induction are large since T-59's were above 1000. Bear in mind that induction of AZ does not increase MBT numbers in PA, its an upgrade of T-59, numbers remain the same. Due to shortage of funds which caused delays, not all T-59 II regiments could be replaced in due time. Many non-upgraded T-59's and T-69's were handed over to para military due to nature of WOT operations in west of Pakistan, creating further gaps in PA MBT inventory. To cater for these delays, a new MBT was required which could fill the gaps. The 25th and 26th Mechanised Divisions were raised and modern MBT's were required to which could operate in the desert. It was impossible to replace T-59's and T-69's while using the same AK line to continue production for already planned slow-rate produced AK's and on top of that build another 300 AK in next few years, so a new tender was floated and VT-4 and Oplot-M were evaluated. These two candidate MBT's have been evaluated, their concerned companies told about their shortcomings or requirements and then brought for evaluation again. 

T-90 has been found to be a great candidate also and T-90 will be operating in the same conditions with the Indian Army. This gives the Indian reporters and analysts a chance to jump up and down on Indian Army selection of T-90 while remaining hush about the disastrous birth of Arjun MBT. If weight wouldn't have been an issue then PA would have trialed MBT's above 60 Tons also. T-90 is not the only MBT to prove itself in the desert, Leclerc has shown good performance too with UAE while Leopard 2 is being used by Turkish Army Currently in its war against heavily armed insurgents. 

Coming to PA top brass, which includes Generals from HIT, POF, GHQ, AVRDE etc. Not all Generals stay quiet if a disaster has happened and not all Generals are egoists. We have had examples in the past where few of the retired Generals have openly criticized about anything, wherever and whenever they feel like, whats stopping any of the retired Generals to speak against AK, after all its been more than a decade since its induction ! A product with 300+ examples running out there is not a closely guarded secret of failure and on top of that AK has been upgraded. If a product is a failure, its not slated for upgrades at all. There are thousands of officers and soldiers who have interacted with this AK MBT and nothing worry-some about its performance has reached the media. furthermore, the cost has been heavily exaggerated, PA cannot afford a $30 mil MBT a piece.

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## Amigator

@Signalian Where does VARTA APS stands as compare to Shrota-1 of T-90? and Which APS is present in T-80UD of PA, clearly not Shrota-1 as Pakistan obtained tanks from Ukraine after Soviet Union dissolution.


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## Signalian

Amigator said:


> @Signalian Where does VARTA APS stands as compare to Shrota-1 of T-90? and Which APS is present in T-80UD of PA, clearly not Shrota-1 as Pakistan obtained tanks from Ukraine after Soviet Union dissolution.


I dont know if any APS is currently installed on MBT's of PA.


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## Dazzler

Signalian said:


> Every regiment using the AK has praised this MBT. Many of such units have been using Type-85 III and Type-59 II, before converting to AK. If AK's design was such a flop then AK-I wouldn't have seen the light of the day. Military doesn't have funds to induct hundreds of MBT's on mere "ego" ! There have been no break downs in the exercises conducted using Ak's. The AZ numbers of induction are large since T-59's were above 1000. Bear in mind that induction of AZ does not increase MBT numbers in PA, its an upgrade of T-59, numbers remain the same. Due to shortage of funds which caused delays, not all T-59 II regiments could be replaced in due time. Many non-upgraded T-59's and T-69's were handed over to para military due to nature of WOT operations in west of Pakistan, creating further gaps in PA MBT inventory. To cater for these delays, a new MBT was required which could fill the gaps. The 25th and 26th Mechanised Divisions were raised and modern MBT's were required to which could operate in the desert. It was impossible to replace T-59's and T-69's while using the same AK line to continue production for already planned slow-rate produced AK's and on top of that build another 300 AK in next few years, so a new tender was floated and VT-4 and Oplot-M were evaluated. These two candidate MBT's have been evaluated, their concerned companies told about their shortcomings or requirements and then brought for evaluation again.
> 
> T-90 has been found to be a great candidate also and T-90 will be operating in the same conditions with the Indian Army. This gives the Indian reporters and analysts a chance to jump up and down on Indian Army selection of T-90 while remaining hush about the disastrous birth of Arjun MBT. If weight wouldn't have been an issue then PA would have trialed MBT's above 60 Tons also. T-90 is not the only MBT to prove itself in the desert, Leclerc has shown good performance too with UAE while Leopard 2 is being used by Turkish Army Currently in its war against heavily armed insurgents.
> 
> Coming to PA top brass, which includes Generals from HIT, POF, GHQ, AVRDE etc. Not all Generals stay quiet if a disaster has happened and not all Generals are egoists. We have had examples in the past where few of the retired Generals have openly criticized about anything, wherever and whenever they feel like, whats stopping any of the retired Generals to speak against AK, after all its been more than a decade since its induction ! A product with 300+ examples running out there is not a closely guarded secret of failure and on top of that AK has been upgraded. If a product is a failure, its not slated for upgrades at all. There are thousands of officers and soldiers who have interacted with this AK MBT and nothing worry-some about its performance has reached the media. furthermore, the cost has been heavily exaggerated, PA cannot afford a $30 mil MBT a piece.



In fact, contrary to the sorry pic the article tried to post, the AK is being more aggressively used for the last few years. Not to mention its technology is being shared for upgrading other mbts including UD, 85IIAP and Alzarrar.

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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler

*Mikhail Demyanovich Borisyuk, Ukraine'**s** ace tank designer, testing the Alkhalid. *

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## AsifIjaz

Dazzler said:


> *Mikhail Demyanovich Borisyuk, Ukraine'**s** ace tank designer, testing the Alkhalid. *


Thanks for sharing. Any details around what was being tested or evaluated.
Was the visit a recent one i.e. After tge signing if mou a few months back..??


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## Dazzler

AsifIjaz said:


> Thanks for sharing. Any details around what was being tested or evaluated.
> Was the visit a recent one i.e. After tge signing if mou a few months back..??



Overall performance of the tank.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

AsifIjaz said:


> Thanks for sharing. Any details around what was being tested or evaluated.
> Was the visit a recent one i.e. After tge signing if mou a few months back..??


These are old pics.


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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> These are old pics.


Picture Nazi!!
Old and new pics...all welcome. Its not like AK was shabby and hideous in the old pics.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Signalian said:


> Picture Nazi!!
> Old and new pics...all welcome. Its not like AK was shabby and hideous in the old pics.


I mean these are from AK testing phase.

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## HRK

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I mean these are from AK testing phase.


If I remember correctly when the engine was change to Ukrainian engine and tested in Pakistan after first few AK. I think initial 4 or 5 AK were built with British or German engine

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## Dazzler

HRK said:


> If I remember correctly when the engine was change to Ukrainian engine and tested in Pakistan after first few AK. I think initial 4 or 5 AK were built with British or German engine



German with LSG 3000 transmission.

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> Aselsan and Pakistani officials are negotiating serious level on tank upgrade solutions. Aselsan prepared a mock-up for Pakistan.
> 
> View attachment 537944


said mock-up If I am not wrong was representing the concept of a T-72 tank modernisation shown in IDEAS-2018 in Pakistan irony is Pakistan does not use T-72 tanks and upgrade package form this mock does not appear attractive.





So on the basis of this I can fairly assume whatever upgrades solutions are under negotiation does not involve anything related to this mock-up

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## cabatli_53

HRK said:


> said mock-up If I am not wrong was representing the concept of a T-72 tank modernisation shown in IDEAS-2018 in Pakistan irony is Pakistan does not use T-72 tanks and upgrade package form this mock does not appear attractive.
> View attachment 537948
> 
> So on the basis of this I can fairly assume whatever upgrades solutions are under negotiation does not involve anything related to this mock-up




You are right bro. It seems MSI used a wrong photo to introduce the negotiations and I jumped the event like a fish...

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> You are right bro. It seems MSI used a wrong photo to introduce the negotiations and I jumped the event like a fish...


Pakistan these days is upgrading its Type 85 Tanks and I am pretty sure Turkey could be providing some help in that

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> It seems MSI used a wrong photo to introduce the negotiations


I can understand it was not your mistake, but what I was pointing was an innocent mistake of Turkish firm which introduce this model during IDEAS-2018 with single optic sight which apparently lack night fighting capability (search light on that model is pointing towards this possibility) 


Zarvan said:


> Pakistan these days is upgrading its Type 85 Tanks and I am pretty sure Turkey could be providing some help in that


nope HIT is already undertaking the project of Type-85 modernisation and we have seen photos of at least one batch handed over to PA, so *we can assume *current negotiation is for legacy AK and Turkey might be the second interested participant in that program as we know Ukraine is also in negotiation for tank modernisation related to AK

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## S.Y.A

Dazzler said:


> Oil leaks and grease marks are common for all tank crews around the world.
> 
> AK-1 with IR/ Thermal stealth coating..


is its armour good enough? are two welded plates in the turret good enough?


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan these days is upgrading its Type 85 Tanks and I am pretty sure Turkey could be providing some help in that



Nothing in type-85 UPG comes from Turkey. Its all from Pakistan, China, Ukraine, and France.

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## SSGcommandoPAK




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## LKJ86



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## Hassannn85

For the more knowledgeable people in this forum: Why doesnt Pakistan go for ZTZ 99A or T14 Armata instead of VT4 (according to some reports we're looking at 100)?


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## ZAC1

Fieldmarshal said:


> I have said it earlier but I will say it again.
> Their is no delay or slow down in production. But on the contrary we have the highest production for the last couple of years.
> At the same time hmc is being retooled n it will double the rate of production.


So how many we have ?


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## Aryeih Leib

Hassannn85 said:


> For the more knowledgeable people in this forum: Why doesnt Pakistan go for ZTZ 99A or T14 Armata instead of VT4 (according to some reports we're looking at 100)?


Sir , with respect . are these tanks currently available to pakistan

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## ZAC1

Ronnie k said:


> Sir , with respect . are these tanks currently available to pakistan


VT4 and ZTZ99A are....t14 no chance

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## Army research

We already have a exact equivalent of the type 99, same weight power package armament profile al Khalid , next tanks should get something with a integrated fire and forget missile so the commander can engage physically one tanks while the gunner fires his LOS missile at another , it would sound all enemy bells and a attack would lose force if it encouters of troop of such tanks,


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## Keysersoze

Army research said:


> We already have a exact equivalent of the type 99, same weight power package armament profile al Khalid , next tanks should get something with a integrated fire and forget missile so the commander can engage physically one tanks while the gunner fires his LOS missile at another , it would sound all enemy bells and a attack would lose force if it encouters of troop of such tanks,


I thought t96 was the equivalent and not the type99


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549398

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## Muhammad Omar

Is China Offering ZTZ-99A to Pakistan??


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## lcloo

Al-Khalid (46 tons) is in the same weight class as type 96 (42.8 tons). Type 99 is much more heavy in weight at 54 to 58 tons. VT-4 is the export version of type 99.

Latest version of type 99 is type 99A, which is currently in PLA service. If China will to export type 99A, it will still be designated as VT-4 main battle tank. May be they will call it VT-4P or Al-Khalid II (with TOT and produce in Pakistan).

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## Great Janjua

Update


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## S10

lcloo said:


> Al-Khalid (46 tons) is in the same weight class as type 96 (42.8 tons). Type 99 is much more heavy in weight at 54 to 58 tons. VT-4 is the export version of type 99.
> 
> Latest version of type 99 is type 99A, which is currently in PLA service. If China will to export type 99A, it will still be designated as VT-4 main battle tank. May be they will call it VT-4P or Al-Khalid II (with TOT and produce in Pakistan).


Nope, VT-4 and Type 99A aren't from the same family.

1. Type 99 Branch: T-72M/T-80U -> Type 98 -> Type 99 -> Type 99A
2. Type 96 Branch: Type 80/Type 88 - > Type 85/Type 88C -> Type 96 -> Type 96A
3. Export Branch: Type 85/Type 88C -> Type 90 -> Type 90II/MBT 2000 -> MBT 3000/VT-4

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## Cool_Soldier

Tank production rate is pretty slow plus Alkhalid-2 is awaiting for long. Nothing is role out yet.
Perhaps, this deficiency will be filled by purchasing VT4 from China and Aplot from Ukraine.

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## his5850




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## S10

Hassannn85 said:


> For the more knowledgeable people in this forum: Why doesnt Pakistan go for ZTZ 99A or T14 Armata instead of VT4 (according to some reports we're looking at 100)?


Type 99A isn't for export. Its frontal armor composition is a closely guarded secret, same way Americans do not provide depleted uranium armor packages for their exported M1 tanks.

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## Signalian

Army research said:


> We already have a exact equivalent of the type 99, same weight power package armament profile al Khalid , next tanks should get something with a integrated fire and forget missile so the commander can engage physically one tanks while the gunner fires his LOS missile at another , it would sound all enemy bells and a attack would lose force if it encouters of troop of such tanks,


More bells and whistles makes the MBT expensive to buy, maintain and operate. Even USA has M1A2 with different standards of up gradation. Countries operating Leo2 also have different standards or upgradation, like A4, A5 or A6.

AK-II is supposed to be the backbone of PA armor, it should have enough room for numerous upgrades of different types during its life time. If the first version is even slightly better than AK-I, it should be inducted to replace older MBT's. Upgrades can happen as its continues to give service over years. The design should be such that it could withstand service of 40-50 years. T-59/69 have given service roughly the same number of years since their induction in 1960's. T-85 has seen service for past 30+ years. Both types have been upgraded over the years. 

Replacing some 1200 MBT's is a long process.


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## phrozenflame

Hassannn85 said:


> For the more knowledgeable people in this forum: Why doesnt Pakistan go for ZTZ 99A or T14 Armata instead of VT4 (according to some reports we're looking at 100)?


Because the resources are finite.


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## Keysersoze

Army research said:


> We already have a exact equivalent of the type 99, same weight power package armament profile al Khalid , next tanks should get something with a integrated fire and forget missile so the commander can engage physically one tanks while the gunner fires his LOS missile at another , it would sound all enemy bells and a attack would lose force if it encouters of troop of such tanks,


Actually that's not true the type99 is a about 58 tonnes compared to 46 for the AK. The AKs closest analogy would be the type 96

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## lcloo

Hassannn85 said:


> For the more knowledgeable people in this forum: Why doesnt Pakistan go for ZTZ 99A or T14 Armata instead of VT4 (according to some reports we're looking at 100)?


VT-4 is the export version of ZTZ 99.


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## LKJ86

VT-5 tank

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## Armchair

What are the possibilities of building a low cost, simplified Al Khalid without the expensive French equipment?

What are the chances of increasing production rate?

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## Dazzler

Armchair said:


> What are the possibilities of building a low cost, simplified Al Khalid without the expensive French equipment?
> 
> What are the chances of increasing production rate?



Alzarrar shares many technologies from AK including ammo, optics/ thermal imagers, APU, alloys and armor, so essentially it can be called a somewhat simplified version despite the base platform of the former being type59/ 69. Both share same 125mm autofretagged smoothbore.



LKJ86 said:


> VT-5 tank
> View attachment 572416
> 
> View attachment 572417
> View attachment 572418
> View attachment 572419
> View attachment 572420



Any reason for posting these here?

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## Armchair

Dazzler said:


> Alzarrar shares many technologies from AK including ammo, optics/ thermal imagers, APU, alloys and armor, so essentially it can be called a somewhat simplified version despite the base platform of the former being type59/ 69. Both share same 125mm autofretagged smoothbore.
> 
> 
> 
> Any reason for posting these here?


Thanks


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## jupiter2007

Pakistan is in need of 600 new tanks. Any news of Tank purchase in recent days?


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## Inception-06

@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian notice the ERA carriers!

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## Dazzler

Inception-06 said:


> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian notice the ERA carriers!
> 
> View attachment 575853



Ak-1

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## Foxtrot Delta

lcloo said:


> VT-4 is the export version of ZTZ 99.



You sir have no idea what ur saying.


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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Ak-1



whats the optical design different between AK and AK-1? I am confused, sometimes they have bothe same side skirts sometimes not sometimes AK-1 has ERA sometimes not!


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## Dazzler

Inception-06 said:


> whats the optical design different between AK and AK-1? I am confused, sometimes they have bothe same side skirts sometimes not sometimes AK-1 has ERA sometimes not!



Ak1 has era holding brackets that the basic model lacks. Also the muzzle sensor besides the doghouse is bigger on Ak1.

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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


> Ak1 has era holding brackets that the basic model lacks. Also the muzzle sensor besides the doghouse is bigger on Ak1.



Era can be added to any tank and does not request forth level support in the field

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## CHI RULES

Sir it is evident that AK-1 and AK-2 accurate specs are still not shared officially and no one knows them accurately. If some one has viewed some new specs should share here. On other hand discussion should be there comparing the capabilities of AK with Indian Arjun and T90 main challengers.

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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> VT-5 tank
> View attachment 572416
> View attachment 572417
> View attachment 572418
> View attachment 572419
> View attachment 572420


This looks like a rebuild of a T 55/T 59. But I can b wrong


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## LKJ86

Aamir Hussain said:


> This looks like a rebuild of a T 55/T 59. But I can b wrong


No, it is a completely new lightweight tank.

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## Tipu7

Aamir Hussain said:


> This looks like a rebuild of a T 55/T 59. But I can b wrong


You are.



CHI RULES said:


> Sir it is evident that AK-1 and AK-2 accurate specs are still not shared officially and no one knows them accurately. If some one has viewed some new specs should share here. On other hand discussion should be there comparing the capabilities of AK with Indian Arjun and T90 main challengers.


AK1 is a minor upgrade over existing platform.
AK1 package includes ERA plates on front hull top, improved muzzle reference system, upgradations in gunner& commander sights, NBC system, fire extinguishing system, explosion suppression system and addition of digital drive panel.
Rest tank is same.



CHI RULES said:


> On other hand discussion should be there comparing the capabilities of AK with Indian Arjun and T90 main challengers


AK is fully capable of countering Indian T90. Arjun? Well it will be unlikely to appear in battlefield in first place.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian notice the ERA carriers!
> 
> View attachment 575853


is that you in pic?

ERA and infantry may not go well together

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## Dazzler

Signalian said:


> is that you in pic?
> 
> ERA and infantry may not go well together



Modern ERA cassettes are designed with minimum chance of self detonation in mind. Kontakt 1 was dangerous, but K5 addressed the issue to a good degree. Also, 2nd gen ERA doesnt explode when impact with small calibre ammo.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> is that you in pic?
> 
> ERA and infantry may not go well together



No, my friend, that's not me, I am in my avatar, check my avatar or cant you see it?


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## Andrei_bt

Dazzler said:


> Modern ERA cassettes are designed with minimum chance of self detonation in mind. Kontakt 1 was dangerous, but K5 addressed the issue to a good degree. Also, 2nd gen ERA doesnt explode when impact with small calibre ammo.



Kontakt-1 does not explode after impact of any ammo, only HEAT or ATGM, some chances - APFSDS. No explosions in case of any other rounds 30 mm e.t.c

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## Signalian

Dazzler said:


> Modern ERA cassettes are designed with minimum chance of self detonation in mind. Kontakt 1 was dangerous, but K5 addressed the issue to a good degree. Also, 2nd gen ERA doesnt explode when impact with small calibre ammo.


its not the small calibre that im worried about.

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> its not the small calibre that im worried about.


Its easy, hot engine at the back, ERA on the front (AK), we ride by the right or left side of the Tank.
The Tank crew must go slower, and the driver must turn the machine slight to left or right to cover the Infantry from small arms fire.
Its usual in training Urban warfare with MBTs, so you get cover from the tanks and the buildings.
In Russian Tanks, ERA is at the front and sides, the "catle" must go in a IFV, just like Tchethenia, fire at the IFVs first and then take the tanks alone after.
Thanks

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## Inception-06

JPMM said:


> Its easy, hot engine at the back, ERA on the front (AK), we ride by the right or left side of the Tank.
> The Tank crew must go slower, and the driver must turn the machine slight to left or right to cover the Infantry from small arms fire.
> Its usual in training Urban warfare with MBTs, so you get cover from the tanks and the buildings.
> In Russian Tanks, ERA is at the front and sides, the "catle" must go in a IFV, just like Tchethenia, fire at the IFVs first and then take the tanks alone after.
> Thanks



Interesting note from you, I don't know if any tactics exist in the Pakistani Military for the Urban warfare, I have never observed something like that,I have just observed the open field exercises, Pakistani tactic is something like infantry is running between the Tanks, but not walking in formations like the soviet or chinese doctrine..@Dazzler can sheet light on this interesting thing.





In front of the Tanks in an open and bright-line:





Can't see any tactic which they follow here :




lose lines behind the Tanks :






The Soviet (NVA east German) style, if you don't want to watch the full length, then watch from 02:23-03:53

My notice: running behind the Tank and taking cover behind it, then swarming out to the left or right or both and storming the enemy lines. 







The Pakistani tactic, notice the Infantry storm between the Tanks:

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> Interesting note from you, I don't know if any tactics exist in the Pakistani Military for the Urban warfare, I have never observed something like that,I have just observed the open field exercises, Pakistani tactic is something like infantry is running between the Tanks, but not walking in formations like the soviet or chinese doctrine..@Dazzler can sheet light on this interesting thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In front of the Tanks in an open and bright-line:
> View attachment 576248
> 
> Can't see any tactic which they follow here :
> View attachment 576249
> 
> lose lines behind the Tanks :
> View attachment 576250
> 
> 
> 
> The Soviet (NVA east German) style, if you don't want to watch the full length, then watch from 02:23-03:53
> 
> My notice: running behind the Tank and taking cover behind it, then swarming out to the left or right or both and storming the enemy lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani tactic, notice the Infantry storm between the Tanks:



Yes, you correctly pointed out what i meant

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## Gryphon

Army has committed to acquisition of 220 Al-Khalid 1 MBTs, i.e., 5 armoured regiments. Stage 1 (110 MBTs) nearing completion and preparations for stage 2 (+110 MBTs) started.

These 220 Al-Khalid 1's will join roughly 324 examples of the baseline Al-Khalid currently in PA inventory.

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## TOTUU

Inception-06 said:


> Interesting note from you, I don't know if any tactics exist in the Pakistani Military for the Urban warfare, I have never observed something like that,I have just observed the open field exercises, Pakistani tactic is something like infantry is running between the Tanks, but not walking in formations like the soviet or chinese doctrine..@Dazzler can sheet light on this interesting thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In front of the Tanks in an open and bright-line:
> View attachment 576248
> 
> Can't see any tactic which they follow here :
> View attachment 576249
> 
> lose lines behind the Tanks :
> View attachment 576250
> 
> 
> 
> The Soviet (NVA east German) style, if you don't want to watch the full length, then watch from 02:23-03:53
> 
> My notice: running behind the Tank and taking cover behind it, then swarming out to the left or right or both and storming the enemy lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani tactic, notice the Infantry storm between the Tanks:



I find this photos in http://www.81.cn/

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## Cornered Tiger

Gryphon said:


> 5 armoured regiments



Replacement or addition?


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## Gryphon

Cornered Tiger said:


> Replacement or addition?



Addition. For the Okara-Bahawalpur-Rahim Yar Khan-Pano Aqil area.

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## Maxpane

Gryphon said:


> Addition. For the Okara-Bahawalpur-Rahim Yar Khan-Pano Aqil area.


sir is rahim yar khan is a senitive area in military point of view?


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## Inception-06

TOTUU said:


> I find this photos in http://www.81.cn/
> View attachment 588209
> View attachment 588210
> View attachment 588211
> View attachment 588212




Und what do you notice ?


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## Haris Ali2140

@Gryphon@Zarvan @Signalian 
Do we use depleted uranium tank ammunition???


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## Umar Nazir

Maxpane said:


> sir is rahim yar khan is a senitive area in military point of view?


operation Brasstacks in 1987 was all about Raheem Yar Khan

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## Maxpane

Umar Nazir said:


> operation Brasstacks in 1987 was all about Raheem Yar Khan


hmm. thanks for the info

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## Viper27

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Gryphon@Zarvan @Signalian
> Do we use depleted uranium tank ammunition???



Naiza 125mm.
Not sure if we developed or acquired any other DU shells apart from this.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Viper27 said:


> Naiza 125mm.
> Not sure if we developed or acquired any other DU shells apart from this.


A new Naiza DU round was also developed.

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## Viper27

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A new Naiza DU round was also developed.


 Thanks any details?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Umar Nazir said:


> operation Brasstacks in 1987 was all about Raheem Yar Khan


Can u shed info on Operation Brasstacks.

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## Umar Nazir

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can u shed info on Operation Brasstacks.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Brasstacks


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## Gryphon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Gryphon@Zarvan @Signalian
> Do we use depleted uranium tank ammunition???





Viper27 said:


> Thanks any details?



Naiza Mk-1 and Naiza Mk-2. Both were actually developed by China under a different nomenclature, with Pakistan opting for local production.

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## Inception-06

COAS Visits Pakistan Ordnance Factories Wah and Heavy Industries Taxila

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## Dazzler



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## Zulfiqar

Gryphon said:


> Addition. For the Okara-Bahawalpur-Rahim Yar Khan-Pano Aqil area.




Will those 5 regiments become part of some new IABGs elsewhere or be part of a new mech division as stated by you for Pano aqil side.

Why addition considering we have many older T series tanks to replace too?

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## Gryphon

Zulfiqar said:


> Will those 5 regiments become part of some new IABGs elsewhere or be part of a new mech division as stated by you for Pano aqil side.



Mech Div HQ = Indp Armd Bde + Indp Armd Bde + Indp Mech Bde
These bdes will be raised by shifting existing armoured regiments + new AK-1 armoured regiments.

An IABG was recently converted to IMBG by moving one of the armoured regiments, and assigned a HAT bn as replacement.



> Why addition considering we have many older T series tanks to replace too?



Army is increasing number of AC regiments & Al-Zarrar program has resumed, no Type 59/69's are being replaced.

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## khanasifm

Inception-06 said:


> COAS Visits Pakistan Ordnance Factories Wah and Heavy Industries Taxila
> View attachment 592926



At one time pof was producing 203mm artillery ammo which paa has about 50-80 or m-110 but now it’s not on the list of ammo being produced ?? Anyone know why

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> At one time pof was producing 203mm artillery ammo which paa has about 50-80 or m-110 but now it’s not on the list of ammo being produced ?? Anyone know why


https://pof.gov.pk/productDetail/14

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## khanasifm

HRK said:


> https://pof.gov.pk/productDetail/14



Ok last time I checked a brochure it did not listed 203mm it was a one pager with all products plus in ideas 2018 video where all products were displayed and explained the rep only went from 155mm to 25 ponder and Did not mention 203 at all 

Paa has 60 or so 203 mm m-110 of course the m-109 inventory is now doubled or tripled

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Army is increasing number of AC regiments & Al-Zarrar program has resumed, no Type 59/69's are being replaced.


Expected, been saying that - no conversion to heavy APC or anything.

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## Cornered Tiger

Gryphon said:


> Al-Zarrar program has resumed



How much more Al-Zarrar tanks we are going to produce?



Signalian said:


> Expected, been saying that - no conversion to heavy APC or anything.



Any contenders for replacement?

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## Zulfiqar

Gryphon said:


> Mech Div HQ = Indp Armd Bde + Indp Armd Bde + Indp Mech Bde
> These bdes will be raised by shifting existing armoured regiments + new AK-1 armoured regiments.
> 
> An IABG was recently converted to IMBG by moving one of the armoured regiments, and assigned a HAT bn as replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> Army is increasing number of AC regiments & Al-Zarrar program has resumed, no Type 59/69's are being replaced.



Will HIT convert all remaining T59/69s (those that have not been given to FC) to AZs.

How many AZs do you think we would have in future (incl existing ones)?

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## Gryphon

Cornered Tiger said:


> How much more Al-Zarrar tanks we are going to produce?





Zulfiqar said:


> Will HIT convert all remaining T59/69s (those that have not been given to FC) to AZs.
> 
> How many AZs do you think we would have in future (incl existing ones)?



MoDP Yearbook 2017-18 indicated 79 Type 59/69's are being upgraded to AZ, that would make it 504 + 79 = 583 in total.

Can't say if more will be upgraded.

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## Signalian

Cornered Tiger said:


> Any contenders for replacement?


VT-4 was trialed.

IMO, best option for replacement are AK-series (I and then II) or more T-80 if replacements are required quickly, no other MBT.



Zulfiqar said:


> Will HIT convert all remaining T59/69s (those that have not been given to FC) to AZs.
> 
> How many AZs do you think we would have in future (incl existing ones)?



First T-59 to be converted to AZ, then maybe after 1-2 decades T-85 II will start retiring.

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## Cornered Tiger

Signalian said:


> First T-59 to be converted to AZ, then maybe after 1-2 decades T-85 II will start retiring.



Right. MODP 2017-18 indicates PA also going to upgrade T-85 II tanks as well.

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## Tipu7

Cornered Tiger said:


> Right. MODP 2017-18 indicates PA also going to upgrade T-85 II tanks as well.


*is upgrading.

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## ARMalik

JV with Turkey on Altay Tanks might be a good step.


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## Hassan Guy

ARMalik said:


> JV with Turkey on Altay Tanks might be a good step.


I think Ukrainian armor and enginery with Turkish sensors and weapons is the way to run. Give the dudes at HIT something to do.

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## his5850

Please tell me is this any true ??


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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> VT-4 was trialed.
> 
> IMO, best option for replacement are AK-series (I and then II) or more T-80 if replacements are required quickly, no other MBT.
> 
> 
> 
> First T-59 to be converted to AZ, then maybe after 1-2 decades T-85 II will start retiring.



Signalian, how about going for refurbished t90s from Russia?


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## Cookie Monster

Signalian said:


> VT-4 was trialed.
> 
> IMO, best option for replacement are AK-series (I and then II) or more T-80 if replacements are required quickly, no other MBT.
> 
> 
> 
> First T-59 to be converted to AZ, then maybe after 1-2 decades T-85 II will start retiring.


Is there a reason for such fragmentation of battle tanks in PA(besides financial issues)? I know that there is a push for commonality between Al-Zarrar, Al-Khalid, and Type 85 to an extent...but still it would be nicer to simplify things.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> Army is increasing number of AC regiments & Al-Zarrar program has resumed,


Can AZ be converted to AK?


----------



## Bossman

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can AZ be converted to AK?


No


----------



## aliaselin

Signalian said:


> VT-4 was trialed.
> 
> IMO, best option for replacement are AK-series (I and then II) or more T-80 if replacements are required quickly, no other MBT.


I have heard from some military trader in China said that PA and air force complained that Pakistan Navy took too much share of the military budget, otherwise the VT-4 deal and more JF-17should have come.


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## Beast

Armchair said:


> Signalian, how about going for refurbished t90s from Russia?


No, India used T-90s.


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## Dazzler

his5850 said:


> Please tell me is this any true ??



Highly inaccurate on pretty much all accounts.

He based everything on the model of 90II in the SIM thinking that was the Al khalid, which is not the case. Not worth watching.

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## Armchair

I was looking for an intelligent answer so addressed Signalian.

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## alimobin memon

Dazzler said:


> Highly inaccurate on pretty much all accounts.
> 
> He based everything on the model of 90II in the SIM thinking that was the Al khalid, which is not the case. Not worth watching.
> 
> 
> 
> All versions apart from T-90MS were inferior in FCS, optics to Al khalid series.


Also T-90MS is not significant better than AK-1



aliaselin said:


> I have heard from some military trader in China said that PA and air force complained that Pakistan Navy took too much share of the military budget, otherwise the VT-4 deal and more JF-17should have come.


Our navy needs the most budget for now since it is the weakest of 3.

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## Pakistani Fighter

aliaselin said:


> I have heard from some military trader in China said that PA and air force complained that Pakistan Navy took too much share of the military budget, otherwise the VT-4 deal and more JF-17should have come.


Possible. We are getting 4 Jinnah Class Frigates, 2 ADA, 4 Type 054A/Ps and 8 S 20s



alimobin memon said:


> AK-1


How many we have?


----------



## Cool_Soldier

well, budget constraint had pushed PA to halt manufacturing of further AK 1 and still AK 2 is not yet rolled out.
we might need to go for purchasing VT 4 to fix current war possibilities.
May we see prosperity in 2020 and all forces get sufficient budget to boost power.


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## alimobin memon

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Possible. We are getting 4 Jinnah Class Frigates, 2 ADA, 4 Type 054A/Ps and 8 S 20s
> 
> 
> How many we have?


By end of 17 we had new 25 so estimated 75 to 100. But their is no denying or doubt that old AKs are upgraded to AK-1 standard so 400 atleast


----------



## Dazzler

Armchair said:


> I was looking for an intelligent answer so addressed Signalian.



Post [-] for unnecessary condescension. 

Be careful next time or get reported.



alimobin memon said:


> Also T-90MS is not significant better than AK-1
> 
> 
> Our navy needs the most budget for now since it is the weakest of 3.



If true, the navy did the right thing. They have been deprived of funds for too long. 

It is about time.

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## StormBreaker

aliaselin said:


> I have heard from some military trader in China said that PA and air force complained that Pakistan Navy took too much share of the military budget, otherwise the VT-4 deal and more JF-17should have come.


lol


----------



## Readerdefence

aliaselin said:


> I have heard from some military trader in China said that PA and air force complained that Pakistan Navy took too much share of the military budget, otherwise the VT-4 deal and more JF-17should have come.


Hi that can be the case about complaining but just for a say Chinese Navy won’t be clearing the mess around CPEC it will be only PN to clear the path and put the opponent at bay 
In my humble opinion even Chinese government must have pulled some strings for PN to have 
At least something to match with the opponent 
Just a thought 
Thank you


----------



## echo 1

Dazzler said:


> Highly inaccurate on pretty much all accounts.
> 
> He based everything on the model of 90II in the SIM thinking that was the Al khalid, which is not the case. Not worth watching.


Can you please elaborate about this. From what I have read Model 90II was marketed as MBT 2000 for export by Chain according to: http://www.military-today.com/tanks/type_90_II.htm and https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=181. and https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm


----------



## Dazzler

echo 1 said:


> Can you please elaborate about this. From what I have read Model 90II was marketed as MBT 2000 for export by Chain according to: http://www.military-today.com/tanks/type_90_II.htm and https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=181. and https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm



Al khalid/P90 is based on a further improved model 9IIM, mated with Ukrainian powerpack and transmission, western FCS and French optics/ TI sights.

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## Eight Pass Charlie

*

RedEffect has come out with a comparison video of Al-Khalid and Arjun. The video is below. He has also done individual reviews on the Al-Khalid and Arjun as well as most other notable tanks.*

*Arjun vs Al-Khalid - UNBIASED Indian vs Pakistan MBT comparison*






Some comments from youtube:

_So the advantages are: Al-Khalid: Firepower and mobility. Arjun: Fire control system and protection. Dont they just counter each other?_

and

_Love that you made the video, but there’s a little thing I’d like to correct (I’m not one of the salty ones, just want to share the little knowledge I have too. I enjoy the content). I have driven the AK and have been around it during Pakistani military exercises. The thing about AKs armor needs some explanation; The Pakistanis have a few hundred AKs that have either Full ERA or Varta+Hull ERA which belong to the “ready” regiments. (Strike regiments as the Pakistanis call them). So they wouldn’t necessarily have to start installing ERA on hundreds of tanks when a war starts, they would have a few ready while they put it on the others, the reason for this is probably costs and availability. So in a fight it would have that ERA. (I have pictures if you want to see them.) All AKs and even the Al-zarrars Pakistan has do have laser warning receivers. LTS786P made by GIDS. (You can find a link to that on their website). Newer AKs (the one in the video when you were talking about it’s mobility) have third generation thermals for the gunner from SAGEM. Pakistan also has the Chinese 125-3 projectiles. Not sure about availability._

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## HRK

Ballal said:


> *
> RedEffect has come out with a comparison video of Al-Khalid and Arjun. The video is below. He has also done individual reviews on the Al-Khalid and Arjun as well as most other notable tanks.*
> 
> *Arjun vs Al-Khalid - UNBIASED Indian vs Pakistan MBT comparison*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some comments from youtube:
> 
> _So the advantages are: Al-Khalid: Firepower and mobility. Arjun: Fire control system and protection. Dont they just counter each other?_
> 
> and
> 
> _Love that you made the video, but there’s a little thing I’d like to correct (I’m not one of the salty ones, just want to share the little knowledge I have too. I enjoy the content). I have driven the AK and have been around it during Pakistani military exercises. The thing about AKs armor needs some explanation; The Pakistanis have a few hundred AKs that have either Full ERA or Varta+Hull ERA which belong to the “ready” regiments. (Strike regiments as the Pakistanis call them). So they wouldn’t necessarily have to start installing ERA on hundreds of tanks when a war starts, they would have a few ready while they put it on the others, the reason for this is probably costs and availability. So in a fight it would have that ERA. (I have pictures if you want to see them.) All AKs and even the Al-zarrars Pakistan has do have laser warning receivers. LTS786P made by GIDS. (You can find a link to that on their website). Newer AKs (the one in the video when you were talking about it’s mobility) have third generation thermals for the gunner from SAGEM. Pakistan also has the Chinese 125-3 projectiles. Not sure about availability._


it may be unbiased from his side but factually incorrect video .....

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## khanasifm

A tank in 40 years in making rejected by it’s main customer and cannot run as it breaks down all the time in field relying depot level fixes 

why would anyone compared it as iA is buying foreign build and licensed t-90a left and right 


End of story

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## Dazzler

For ERA fans....

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> For ERA fans....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 600157


The first one really looks P.S.


----------



## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The first one really looks P.S.



No photoshop

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## Dazzler

With IR and visual stealth... 
You cannot hit what you cannot see..















Tracks covered as well..























Image taken from Alkhaid TI sight

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## Zulfiqar

Dazzler said:


> With IR and visual stealth...
> You cannot hit what you cannot see..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks covered as well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image taken from Alkhaid TI sight




If it looks like that at 960 M then at 2 KM T-90 is toast.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> With IR and visual stealth...
> You cannot hit what you cannot see..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks covered as well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image taken from Alkhaid TI sight


Sir are these all Al Khalid-Is as u posted the pictures with ERA?

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## Sulman Badshah

Dazzler said:


> With IR and visual stealth...
> You cannot hit what you cannot see..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks covered as well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image taken from Alkhaid TI sight


Besides this .. enhanced ERA coverage and sides skirts are visible as well

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## Dazzler

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Sir are these all Al Khalid-Is as u posted the pictures with ERA?



Nope, baseline akhalid

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## Zarvan



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## ghazi52



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## iLION12345_1

Ballal said:


> *
> RedEffect has come out with a comparison video of Al-Khalid and Arjun. The video is below. He has also done individual reviews on the Al-Khalid and Arjun as well as most other notable tanks.*
> 
> *Arjun vs Al-Khalid - UNBIASED Indian vs Pakistan MBT comparison*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some comments from youtube:
> 
> _So the advantages are: Al-Khalid: Firepower and mobility. Arjun: Fire control system and protection. Dont they just counter each other?_
> 
> and
> 
> _Love that you made the video, but there’s a little thing I’d like to correct (I’m not one of the salty ones, just want to share the little knowledge I have too. I enjoy the content). I have driven the AK and have been around it during Pakistani military exercises. The thing about AKs armor needs some explanation; The Pakistanis have a few hundred AKs that have either Full ERA or Varta+Hull ERA which belong to the “ready” regiments. (Strike regiments as the Pakistanis call them). So they wouldn’t necessarily have to start installing ERA on hundreds of tanks when a war starts, they would have a few ready while they put it on the others, the reason for this is probably costs and availability. So in a fight it would have that ERA. (I have pictures if you want to see them.) All AKs and even the Al-zarrars Pakistan has do have laser warning receivers. LTS786P made by GIDS. (You can find a link to that on their website). Newer AKs (the one in the video when you were talking about it’s mobility) have third generation thermals for the gunner from SAGEM. Pakistan also has the Chinese 125-3 projectiles. Not sure about availability._





HRK said:


> it may be unbiased from his side but factually incorrect video .....




The longer comment you showed was by me. I do stand by what I said because it is true after all.
I got into contact with Redeffect (the person who made the video) and talked to him about this, I corrected him where he made the mistakes too, especially with the ERA and the fact that he used an older AK to make the comparison, but it’s not by much fault of his own, numbers for the AK are really hard to find. I also showed him some relevant pictures I have taken personally and he appreciated that, he’s a chill guy.
Also he does agree that the AK is superior to the Arjun (Especially the AK-1, he probably just said they’re equal because…angry Indians disliking his videos, in fact his video explaining why Arjun is the worst tank in the world was copy right striked by a third rate Indian Defence channel which basically spreads lies.)



He is not completely wrong though. The AK compared to any western tank is near average at best. It has a weak engine which is only acceptable due to the tanks small size, nor can a larger engine be fitted to it without changing the shape of the engine bay. The gun can’t fire Any better projectiles than it does already, 550-570mm RHA penetration is the best it’ll do with Naiza DU and Chinese 125-IIM rounds (those are called 125-III sometimes even Though 125-III is different and much more powerful, but too big to fired by the AK, it’s used by the VT4 and type 99.) The concern about the very little amount of ERA on the turret is also correct, but the one about the Hull not having it isn’t since many AKs do have it and older ones are getting it. Hes also right about it not having commanders independent thermals.
He says it doesn’t have a Laser warning receiver, which is again true for older AKs. Not for newer ones, and even after searching for quite a while, I couldn’t find any pictures showing it, that’s why he didn’t find any (I’ve seen them in real life so not much to say). There are however pictures of the Al-Zarrar with the LWR online.

Follow up post (forgive me if I’m not doing this right, don’t use forums a lot except for reading.)

One of the reasons The army likes the engines in the AK (and also the T80UDs they operate, which basically use a smaller version of AKs engine) is because of how well they operate in hot climates. They can handle climates upwards of 55C. Good for the deserts we’ll be using these things in against India. And again, due to its size. It’s acceptable.

All this being said, when compared to the Arjun, literally none of this matters. The weakest spot on the original AKs was the upper plate of the Hull (at the front that is, rear is of course weaker) which had about 300mm of protection without ERA. The Arjun can’t penetrate that. Let alone the newer AKs with ERA. The Arjun is 74 Tons. You could give it 2 engines from an AK and it’d still be slow. On top of all that, it barely exists. AK-1 is Better. Period.
India’s mainstay tank though is the T90, and the newer variants they have are much better than anything we do right now, but the gap is closing fast thankfully.


Below are a couple of pictures I took. I get to visit HIT often. This is the same AK from above. It’s permanently there as a display piece. I believe it doesn’t have any of its sensors, nor is the gun and ERA real (all of that is displayed in the back on those tables.) Parked next to it are all of HITs other products. Including An AZ with Full ERA. I’ll see if I can’t find a picture of that later.


I also quoted some of @Dazzler s stuff in my discussion with Redeffect, I told him to use this forum as a source next time he needs some information for the AK. He might find relevant information here. He appreciates it. 
I do wish there was proper information about Pakistani stuff with numbers and sources on the internet. But I guess for now it’s just a good little buff to the military. Can’t plan for what you don’t know.

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## Inception-06

ghazi52 said:


>



I notice some European staff on the picture.

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> I notice some European staff on the picture.


Those are probably Greeks. The coating seen on these AKs is from a Greek company called INTERMAT. These pictures can also be found on their website. HIT is collaborating with them for this.

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## Dil_Pakistan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223009560350396422

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223009575709921280

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223009578381651970

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## BHarwana



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## Tipu7

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 607554


Looks like AK production is going on smoothly.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Looks like AK production is going on smoothly.


This is a very positive outcome from HIT. A lot of T-59s need to be replaced.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> This is a very positive outcome from HIT. A lot of T-59s need to be replaced.


Replaced or converted into AZ?

On side note, I believe that production of AK, upgradation of UDs, overhauling of T85 and convertion of T59 into AZ is at the cost of Al Haider project.

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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> Replaced or converted into AZ?
> 
> On side note, I believe that production of AK, upgradation of UDs, overhauling of T85 and convertion of T59 into AZ is at the cost of Al Haider project.


I was thinking the same ....

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## Reichmarshal

Tipu7 said:


> Replaced or converted into AZ?
> 
> On side note, I believe that production of AK, upgradation of UDs, overhauling of T85 and convertion of T59 into AZ is at the cost of Al Haider project.


VT4 is it all harder, will be seen in PA colours very soon

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Replaced or converted into AZ?
> 
> On side note, I believe that production of AK, upgradation of UDs, overhauling of T85 and convertion of T59 into AZ is at the cost of Al Haider project.


That is for the Military to decide. I think replacement of T-59 could be considered since AZ is itself a major upgrade.

T-59 was first upgraded to T-59 II and then upgraded to AZ standard, where as upgrading AZ further more is not easy as the tech keeps getting modern. AZ has a short coming of a smaller engine with lesser HP than other MBTs. I also think that 6th Armd Div is a bit disadvantaged. Not saying that AZ cannot hold out on its own against T-72 or T-90, yes it can, and it can cover the distance too which is a major requirement for any armored formation. Its got a superb gun and suitable protection, its lighter than other modern MBTs and smaller in size. PA found a good use of it to place it in plains of Punjab while the bigger MBTs are deployed in semi-desert and desert regions. A modern MBT with 1000+ HP and room to upgrade further is still a better choice. AZ upgrade is still a bit of a compromise and a stop gap - if AZ upgrade is such a potent armored component for PA then maybe more cheap T-59 at throw away priced should be acquired from storage in China and upgraded to AZ to increase number of regiments. You know, make a Mirage out of T-59, lol, get all the T-59 of the world and assemble them to AZ standard. Jokes apart, AK and AK-I should be invested in for up-gradation, introduce more variants and AK-II should have been the first option to replace T-59. The news of Al-Haider, testing of VT-4/Oplot hinted towards replacement of T-59. 

T-59 II are still suitable to be used by FC on western front.

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## Tipu7

AZ is credible upgrade, but still it's an upgrade of 1st generation T59.
The biggest advantage it got is its fire power for its size and decent mobility within plains of Punjab. I believe AZ, if used properly, can fight head on against T90 in Punjab but it will not be able to dominate it just like T80/AK can do in deserts if properly employed. (AZ armor is poor in comparison). 
This reduces the scope of AZ utility. Hence, no need to increase their number by buying surplus T59/T69 and converting them into AZ, instead just upgrade those which are already present. Convert them and you will have total 1000+ AZs (24 regiments) sufficient to cover up all divisions deployed in Northern Punjab regions. 

In meantime, continue producing AK and try to reach the requisite production targets within given time frame. Incorporate as much improvements in AK2 as much possible. And by 2025 PA will be operating 620 AK, 320 T80UD, 1000+ AZ, 280 T85 = ~2250 MBTs, sufficient to maintain fleet of 50 regiments. 

Instead of increasing the size of tank fleet by procuring more second hand or half modernized Tanks, it's better to increase the overall antitank capacity of armed forces. We cannot go for attrition route as we cannot match India in numbers. We need to develop flexibility by utilizing as diverse anti tank options as possible. (that includes procurements of tracked & wheeled IFV equipped with ATGMs, anti armor UCAVs, more gunships, better anti tank vehicles, better ATGM in infantry).

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## Cornered Tiger

Tipu7 said:


> This reduces the scope of AZ utility. Hence, no need to increase their number by buying surplus T59/T69 and converting them into AZ, instead just upgrade those which are already present. Convert them and you will have total 1000+ AZs (24 regiments) sufficient to cover up all divisions deployed in Northern Punjab regions.



In that part, I think you missed the point @Signalian is making.

He asserted that the remaining T-59s will go to FC on western front.
AK-2 or AH will come in as replacement for these T-59s.

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## Tipu7

Cornered Tiger said:


> In that part, I think you missed the point @Signalian is making.
> 
> He asserted that the remaining T-59s will go to FC on western front.
> AK-2 or AH will come in as replacement for these T-59s.


FC got T69. In case of need more T69 can be moved to FC. 
And why acquire more T59 for sake of AZ conversion when we got plenty of T59 in our arsenal? Convert them into AZ.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Looks like AK production is going on smoothly.


How many units per year? and what is requirement by Army mean how many copies Army wants of AK series ???


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> AZ is credible upgrade, but still it's an upgrade of 1st generation T59.
> The biggest advantage it got is its fire power for its size and decent mobility within plains of Punjab. I believe AZ, if used properly, can fight head on against T90 in Punjab but it will not be able to dominate it just like T80/AK can do in deserts if properly employed. (AZ armor is poor in comparison).
> This reduces the scope of AZ utility. Hence, no need to increase their number by buying surplus T59/T69 and converting them into AZ, instead just upgrade those which are already present. Convert them and you will have total 1000+ AZs (24 regiments) sufficient to cover up all divisions deployed in Northern Punjab regions.
> 
> In meantime, continue producing AK and try to reach the requisite production targets within given time frame. Incorporate as much improvements in AK2 as much possible. And by 2025 PA will be operating 620 AK, 320 T80UD, 1000+ AZ, 280 T85 = ~2250 MBTs, sufficient to maintain fleet of 50 regiments.
> 
> Instead of increasing the size of tank fleet by procuring more second hand or half modernized Tanks, it's better to increase the overall antitank capacity of armed forces. We cannot go for attrition route as we cannot match India in numbers. We need to develop flexibility by utilizing as diverse anti tank options as possible. (that includes procurements of tracked & wheeled IFV equipped with ATGMs, anti armor UCAVs, more gunships, better anti tank vehicles, better ATGM in infantry).



You didn't get my point. Anyways, looking forward to AK-II induction, whenever that happens

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## princefaisal

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 607554


Which Tank ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Signalian said:


> That is for the Military to decide. I think replacement of T-59 could be considered since AZ is itself a major upgrade.
> 
> T-59 was first upgraded to T-59 II and then upgraded to AZ standard, where as upgrading AZ further more is not easy as the tech keeps getting modern. AZ has a short coming of a smaller engine with lesser HP than other MBTs. I also think that 6th Armd Div is a bit disadvantaged. Not saying that AZ cannot hold out on its own against T-72 or T-90, yes it can, and it can cover the distance too which is a major requirement for any armored formation. Its got a superb gun and suitable protection, its lighter than other modern MBTs and smaller in size. PA found a good use of it to place it in plains of Punjab while the bigger MBTs are deployed in semi-desert and desert regions. A modern MBT with 1000+ HP and room to upgrade further is still a better choice. AZ upgrade is still a bit of a compromise and a stop gap - if AZ upgrade is such a potent armored component for PA then maybe more cheap T-59 at throw away priced should be acquired from storage in China and upgraded to AZ to increase number of regiments. You know, make a Mirage out of T-59, lol, get all the T-59 of the world and assemble them to AZ standard. Jokes apart, AK and AK-I should be invested in for up-gradation, introduce more variants and AK-II should have been the first option to replace T-59. The news of Al-Haider, testing of VT-4/Oplot hinted towards replacement of T-59.
> 
> T-59 II are still suitable to be used by FC on western front.



I still see so many regiments equipped with the good ol 59s man.

We should phase it out fast ASAP!

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Replaced with AK pre-2008, stored and later modified for COIN.


Yeah, the regiments operating T-69/T-59 get AK, AK-I. 
I think T-59 should be replaced by AK, not upgraded to AZ. If all T-59 are upgraded to AZ, then new regiments can be raised to induct AK.

There is no reserve MBT in PA inventory. Replacement of losses in war are necessary.

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Yeah, the regiments operating T-69/T-59 get AK, AK-I.
> I think T-59 should be replaced by AK, not upgraded to AZ. If all T-59 are upgraded to AZ, then new regiments can be raised to induct AK.
> 
> There is no reserve MBT in PA inventory. Replacement of losses in war are necessary.



AZ program restarted; production of 220× AK-1 ongoing with new regt's coming up.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> AZ program restarted; production of 220× AK-1 ongoing with new regt's coming up.



And why it was stopped or when ? and when it restarted?


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## Gryphon

Inception-06 said:


> And why it was stopped or when ? and when it restarted?



Restarted 2 yrs back, with the armour reserve at Pano Aqil expected to get most of the AK-1s.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> Restarted 2 yrs back, with the armour reserve at Pano Aqil expected to get most of the AK-1s.



Why it was Stopped ? I never understood that ?


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> AZ program restarted; production of 220× AK-1 ongoing with new regt's coming up.


so no replacements for losses in war.

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## Tipu7

Inception-06 said:


> Why it was Stopped ? I never understood that ?


Economics and power shortages.



Signalian said:


> so no replacements for losses in war.


Were there any losses?
I remember one AZ getting knocked down during Swat Operation. 

Few T59 were also lost though. But not large enough to justify war losses cover up


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Were there any losses?
> I remember one AZ getting knocked down during Swat Operation.
> 
> Few T59 were also lost though. But not large enough to justify war losses cover up


Not COIN war. A war with India.

Formation doesnot withdraw if replacements for losses make it to front lines during war. Replacements help to continue the offensive even if losses are met.
1965 war, 1st Armd Div withdrew after suffering losses, no replacements.

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## LKJ86

Via @内蒙老杜 from Weibo

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> Not COIN war. A war with India.
> 
> Formation doesnot withdraw if replacements for losses make it to front lines during war. Replacements help to continue the offensive even if losses are met.
> 1965 war, 1st Armd Div withdrew after suffering losses, no replacements.



What percentage would you suggest to keep in reserve?


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## Inception-06

Armchair said:


> What percentage would you suggest to keep in reserve?



all retired old Tanks should be upgraded to AZ standard and kept in reserve!

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## khanasifm

It’s very easy to say replace this and buy that but for a third world country with poverty and very low quality of life and almost no educational systems for masses (>50% not in schools after 5th grade or so ) no tax collection systems and low business environment , overall corruption in society is considered as Norm , people electing crooks knowing they are thieves

paying for anything will not be easy and replacing anything with not be wary

be an economic power first
I think now is a good chance since new GOVT took over

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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> What percentage would you suggest to keep in reserve?


25-30%



khanasifm said:


> It’s very easy to say replace this and buy that but for a third world country with poverty and very low quality of life and almost no educational systems for masses (>50% not in schools after 5th grade or so ) no tax collection systems and low business environment , overall corruption in society is considered as Norm , people electing crooks knowing they are thieves
> 
> paying for anything will not be easy and replacing anything with not be wary
> 
> be an economic power first
> I think now is a good chance since new GOVT took over


This country has leaped and progressed more than you can imagine.

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## Armchair

Thanks @Signalian 

So if a country is aiming for a 10000 strong tank force, about 2500-3000 would be held in reserve and the other 7500 - 7000 would go to the military. Interesting.

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## Dazzler



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## JohnWick

Angry Easterling said:


>


Just like modern T-72 tank.



Arsalan said:


> Are you talking about this part?
> 
> View attachment 481997
> 
> If so, then yes, it is not all metal there.


@Imran Khan @Signalian sig @Dazzler 
Why Pakistan uses Urdu numbers for it's tank?


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## Signalian

JohnWick said:


> @Imran Khan @Signalian sig @Dazzler
> Why Pakistan uses Urdu numbers for it's tank?


Visual difference from distance and through scope.

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## Dazzler

Hopefully this guy doesn't disappoint

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## Dazzler

Ak-1

Doghouse with TI sight, day sight, laser range finder for gunner. A good look at the dynamic muzzle reference system.

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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler



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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> Hopefully this guy doesn't disappoint


Considering the fact that he has shared video of J10 designated as Jf17 Blk3, I believe it's better to ignore him. 


Dazzler said:


>


Any idea about ERA bricks used in AK and AK1? I have heard about both Nozh and FY4 but not sure about it.

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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> Considering the fact that he has shared video of J10 designated as Jf17 Blk3, I believe it's better to ignore him.
> 
> Any idea about ERA bricks used in AK and AK1? I have heard about both Nozh and FY4 but not sure about it.



Aorak is based on FY-2,3. Randomly used. That video was about the rivet expert who worked on both jets. The two Bs parked side by side towards the end were interesting and got many confused.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


>


AK-1?


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## Dazzler

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> AK-1?



Baseline AK

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## Dazzler

Poor thing

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## PakFactor

Dazzler said:


> Poor thing



This is what’s it’s like when the whole family comes to pick one up at the airport lol

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## truthfollower

*Battle Position preparation*(It is tanks related i don't know where else to post it)
If you are in defensive position and waiting for enemy. You are not just sitting idle in the tank waiting for the enemy. You are doing battle position preparation. Before you start your fight, you start ranging different things and take note of the ranges for example building 1800 meters away. So in case during fight your laser range finder gets knocked out, you still have idea of ranges and helpful for engagement.





Challenger 2 PlayStation like gunner controls, gun is stabilized, controls are fixed you can hold onto it so you don't cause false input. Everything is done by your thumb just like PlayStation controller. Brilliant idea Kids now days growing up already know how to use it.
70 ton very heavily armored tank. If you want to take a hit you would do very well to take a hit in this tank. And it also has a record to prove it 13 RPG hits on one particular tank.

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## PanzerKiel

truthfollower said:


> *Battle Position preparation*(It is tanks related i don't know where else to post it)
> If you are in defensive position and waiting for enemy. You are not just sitting idle in the tank waiting for the enemy. You are doing battle position preparation. Before you start your fight, you start ranging different things and take note of the ranges for example building 1800 meters away. So in case during fight your laser range finder gets knocked out, you still have idea of ranges and helpful for engagement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger 2 PlayStation like gunner controls, gun is stabilized, controls are fixed you can hold onto it so you don't cause false input. Everything is done by your thumb just like PlayStation controller. Brilliant idea Kids now days growing up already know how to use it.
> 70 ton very heavily armored tank. If you want to take a hit you would do very well to take a hit in this tank. And it also has a record to prove it 13 RPG hits on one particular tank.


Thatss where a range card becomes handy, a common thing used by infantry, available in every trench and with each weapon.

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## Inception-06

PanzerKiel said:


> Thatss where a range card becomes handy, a common thing used by infantry, available in every trench and with each weapon.



@Dazzler

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## Dazzler

Check out the projectile...

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## truthfollower

Dazzler said:


> Check out the projectile...
> 
> View attachment 626215


HE or AP?


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## truthfollower

I dont know should i say it or not but after 27th 2019 tanks on road felt more bulky and heavier or maybe it was because of scale seeing them in real instead of pictures.


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## Dazzler

truthfollower said:


> HE or AP?


AP

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## Dazzler

AK-1 with Dawdson's MG mount

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## PanzerKiel

Dazzler said:


> AK-1 with Dawdson's MG mount
> 
> View attachment 635148



Would be nice if someday, pic caption reads...

Daudson tank with xyz mount...

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## Dazzler

Swimming with swans..







AK-1

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## Armchair

PanzerKiel said:


> Would be nice if someday, pic caption reads...
> 
> Daudson tank with xyz mount...



I hope PA funds them to build a service rifle for PA before a tank...

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> Swimming with swans..


Swans look fake


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## Dazzler

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Swans look fake


It's a snapshot from a video


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## Incog_nito

VT-4 should be Al-Khalid Block-II.


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## Signalian

Beginning to wonder what happens when push comes to shove. If Ukrainians stop supplying engines, will HIT or HMC manufacture its own. Turkish are trying for their Gunship.

Then again, which engine will VT-4 use when inducted?

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## Akh1112

Signalian said:


> Beginning to wonder what happens when push comes to shove. If Ukrainians stop supplying engines, will HIT or HMC manufacture its own. Turkish are trying for their Gunship.
> 
> Then again, which engine will VT-4 use when inducted?




VT4 uses a Chinese engine. Ukrainians would never do so, they are desperate for money. like, really desperate

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## Signalian

Akh1112 said:


> VT4 uses a Chinese engine. Ukrainians would never do so, they are desperate for money. like, really desperate


Regarding heavy engines produced in Pakistan, there is one production facility, Pakistan Locomotive Factory, but these are locomotive engines. A new facility should be added for military vehicles engine development.

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## Beast

Signalian said:


> Beginning to wonder what happens when push comes to shove. If Ukrainians stop supplying engines, will HIT or HMC manufacture its own. Turkish are trying for their Gunship.
> 
> Then again, which engine will VT-4 use when inducted?


VT-4 engine can never fit into Al Khalid. Its a bigger engine with automatic transmission, gear box build into it.

Al Khalid need a major redesign to fit the Chinese engine.

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## Dreamer.

Signalian said:


> Regarding heavy engines produced in Pakistan, there is one production facility, Pakistan Locomotive Factory, but these are locomotive engines. A new facility should be added for military vehicles engine development.


Wasn't there an MoU signed with Ukraine regarding cooperation in engine development? What happened to that?

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## ilyasmorocco

*alkhaled tank better 









Greetings to my Pakistani brothers
From training of the Moroccan army
alkahled tank *

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## HRK

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mbt-...e-right-direction.660224/page-5#post-12266376

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mbt-...e-right-direction.660224/page-5#post-12266768

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## polanski

Pakistan inducts Al-Khalid-I main battle tank: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/08/02/pakistan-inducts-al-khalid-i-main-battle-tank/


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## Beast

Signalian said:


> Beginning to wonder what happens when push comes to shove. If Ukrainians stop supplying engines, will HIT or HMC manufacture its own. Turkish are trying for their Gunship.
> 
> Then again, which engine will VT-4 use when inducted?


VT-4 is 100% all component made in China tank. The engine is full auto transmission unlike Ukraine who until now still not able to do so. The engine made by Ukraine are all manual transmission. That included AK-1.






https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/mbt-3000-main-battle-tank-china/

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## Dazzler

Interestingly, PA was not satisfied with the performance of driver's steering wheel in Alkhalid. The Alkhalid-1 now has tillers instead of the steering wheel. Adjacent to it sits the digital driver panel

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## TheDarkKnight

Beast said:


> VT-4 engine can never fit into Al Khalid. Its a bigger engine with automatic transmission, gear box build into it.
> 
> Al Khalid need a major redesign to fit the Chinese engine.


Or the Chinese can design an engine for AK. They should have something in place for Mbt2000, which is what AK is based on.


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## Ahmet Pasha

New tank looks like VT4

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## python-000

Cant we made something like this...

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## nomi007

Why Pakistan army sends its Al Khalid in
*ARMI war games *in Russia


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## Packee

What are the main gun's Elevation/ Depression angles and the Turret's Rotation Speed?


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## Dazzler

Two versions of Alkhalid-1

The early version








The improved version that was inducted in PA

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## Dreamer.

Dazzler said:


> Two versions of Alkhalid-1
> 
> The early version
> 
> View attachment 687680
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The improved version that was inducted in PA
> 
> View attachment 687682


Can you please highlight the differences?

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## Beast

TheDarkKnight said:


> Or the Chinese can design an engine for AK. They should have something in place for Mbt2000, which is what AK is based on.


I don't think it's possible. It's not economical in a sense. All Chinese tank are going auto transmission direction which gearbox need to build into the engine to form a big power pack. AK1 Structure are not possible with auto transmission system. It will need a major redesign that will end up a VT-4 tank. Chinese are not going to go backwards by making a manual transmission engine for export or even domestic use.

A very big reason why PA buys VT-4 tank. VT-4 mbt ensures PA tank fleet has no engine constraint problem while possess a leading advance power pack that can matched the west.

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## Packee

Dazzler said:


> Two versions of Alkhalid-1
> 
> The early version
> 
> View attachment 687680
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The improved version that was inducted in PA
> 
> View attachment 687682


The new one seems to have more Modular Composite Armour I think.

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## Dazzler

Glaiviator said:


> The new one seems to have more Modular Composite Armour I think.



Both versions have modular composite armor blocks on turret and front hull. The improved version has 3rd gen TI sight as standard, a better muzzle reference system and gun bending sensor, enhanced multi process FCC, improved sensors. The digital driver panel and IBMS is also enhanced. Overall, the situation awareness of the Ak-1 has been improved.

Note, it shares a few systems from the VT-4 as well.

Production of AK-1 at Tank Factory continues. Hull composite armor block is clearly visible.






Ak and AK-1 side by side

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## Packee

Dazzler said:


> Interestingly, PA was not satisfied with the performance of driver's steering wheel in Alkhalid. The Alkhalid-1 now has tillers instead of the steering wheel. Adjacent to it sits the digital driver panel
> 
> View attachment 657834


What advantages do Tillers offer over Steering wheels and Handle bars? I don't think any other modern tanks use Tillers.

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## Raja Porus

Dazzler said:


> Two versions of Alkhalid-1
> 
> The early version
> 
> View attachment 687680
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The improved version that was inducted in PA
> 
> View attachment 687682


In Ak1 isn't the "helmet " worn by the crew a bit different?

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## [--Leo--]

Any news about AK-2?

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## HRK

ROBOTIC WELDING OF AK-1 HULL

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## Vapour

HRK said:


> ROBOTIC WELDING OF AK-1 HULL
> View attachment 704896



Is this common in tank manufacturing?

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## HRK

Vapour said:


> Is this common in tank manufacturing?


Can't say but I have not seen robotic welding at least in the video of Tank factories of Ukraine or Russia, even in Pakistan this is a very new thing as previously welding robot were not spotted in any of the video or photo of HIT ....

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## GriffinsRule

So this is what HIT machine upgrades we're about. Hope it speeds up the manufacturing process and these lines don't just sit idle

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## Dazzler

HRK said:


> ROBOTIC WELDING OF AK-1 HULL
> View attachment 704896



A very recent addition.

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## Andrei_bt

T-64A manufacture, automatic welding from 8 minute

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## Inception-06



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## Dazzler



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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 723357



Which engines are these? And which platform are they meant for?


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> Which engines are these? And which platform are they meant for?


6td2e for Alkhalid-1.

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## Inception-06



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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> 6td2*e* for Alkhalid-1.


the e variant interests me...I would like to read more about it if it's not classified. I couldn't find information about it online...only info about 6td2 shows up. I would like to know what improvements were made(if any)...increased hp? better fuel economy? more torque?
Do you have any sources u could share?

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## Metal 0-1

Not a tank expert but is that mount for Mine Plough?

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## Inception-06

Metal 0-1 said:


> Not a tank expect but is that mount for Mine Plough?
> View attachment 724514



Its blade, like this of bulldozer, it helps in Self entrenchment, a soviet concept. Not implemented on all Tanks, only the Alkhalid series.

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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> Its blade, like this of bulldozer, it helps in Self entrenchment, a soviet concept. Not implemented on all Tanks, only the Alkhalid series.
> View attachment 724543


I think with T-80ud as well

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## T-55

Some video examples of self entrenchment:

"Msta-S" based on the T-80 tank hull




T-72(from seventh minute)

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## syed_yusuf

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 722761
> View attachment 722762


What tank is this ?

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## Tipu7

syed_yusuf said:


> What tank is this ?


Al Khalid 1.

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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> What tank is this ?


Alkhalid-1 further development of the Alkhalid Tank.


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## Mrc

There is strong rumour that ak 1 uses depleted uranium in armor...


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## Dazzler

Mrc said:


> There is strong rumour that ak 1 uses depleted uranium in armor...



Rumor.

Just HHS steel plates with composite at frontal arc. Still tougher than many.


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## ghazi52



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## iLION12345_1

Does anyone have a picture of Laser Warning receivers mounted on AK/AK-1 (as in actually on the tank.)
They are supposedly located behind the 12.7mm gun (which makes no sense, but still.)
Because it’s supposed to have a LWR but they’re not visible anywhere on the turret.

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## Type59

Mrc said:


> There is strong rumour that ak 1 uses depleted uranium in armor...



Better to use ERA like Ukrainian Duplet. 





Pakistan has reportedly built ERA based on NOZH reactive armour. Nozh is effective against tandem warhead missiles and kinect rounds. Nozh is Ukrainian of origin, hence could get more advanced duplet.


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## iLION12345_1

Type59 said:


> Better to use ERA like Ukrainian Duplex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan has reportedly built ERA based on NOZH reactive armour. Nozh is effective against tandem warhead missiles and kinect rounds. Nozh is Ukrainian of origin, hence could get more advanced duplex.


AK already uses indigenous Aorak MK.2 which is based off Nozh and FY-3. Duplet is basically stacked And differently shaped Nozh, the basic thing is the same. AK and AK-1 use dual-stacked Aorak Mk.2, if it is anything similar to Nozh then it is very good, if it’s closer to FY-3 it’s still pretty decent.

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## HRK

iLION12345_1 said:


> Does anyone have a picture of Laser Warning receivers mounted on AK/AK-1 (as in actually on the tank.)
> They are supposedly located behind the 12.7mm gun (which makes no sense, but still.)
> Because it’s supposed to have a LWR but they’re not visible anywhere on the turret.












its from GIDS name LTS-786P (*Laser Threat Sensor*)

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## iLION12345_1

HRK said:


> View attachment 732388
> 
> View attachment 732387
> 
> 
> its from GIDS name LTS-786P (*Laser Threat Sensor*)
> 
> View attachment 732391


Thanks a lot.
Kinda hard to tell if it’s an LWR or not though.

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## iLION12345_1

@HRK @Dazzler AK and VT4 use armored ammo bins for ammo storage, are these for ready ammo, stored ammo or both? Thank you in advance.


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## HRK

iLION12345_1 said:


> @HRK @Dazzler AK and VT4 use armored ammo bins for ammo storage, are these for ready ammo, stored ammo or both? Thank you in advance.


I will excuse myself to answer this question as I don't have any source available to back up my understanding that in AK it is for both ....

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## iLION12345_1

HRK said:


> I will excuse myself to answer this question as I don't have any source available to back up my understanding that in AK it is for both ....


No worries sir. Thanks a lot for taking the time to response. I’m sure Sir dazzler will tell me eventually.


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## HRK

iLION12345_1 said:


> No worries sir. Thanks a lot for taking the time to response. I’m sure Sir dazzler will tell me eventually.


Bhai I am no 'Sir' .... am just a humble reader and learner

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## khanasifm

[emoji6]









Why Do US Soldiers Have A Picture Of Erwin Rommel In Their Tank? | Despite being one of the most feared and hated German tank commanders of the WWII, when it came to tactics Erwin Rommel still has influence today. | By War Stories | Facebook


1.1M views, 578 likes, 17 loves, 24 comments, 133 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from War Stories: Despite being one of the most feared and hated German tank commanders of the WWII, when it came to...




fb.watch


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## Scorpiooo

What is production rate of AK 1


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## Dazzler

iLION12345_1 said:


> @HRK @Dazzler AK and VT4 use armored ammo bins for ammo storage, are these for ready ammo, stored ammo or both? Thank you in advance.


Ready ammo.


Andrei_bt said:


> T-64A manufacture, automatic welding from 8 minute



Recent addition to HIT, not the world.

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## Reichmarshal

Scorpiooo said:


> What is production rate of AK 1


Around 35 at the moment, but is increasing n soon will hit 50

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## iLION12345_1

The AK uses French ESM-500 transmission with 5 forward and 2 reverse gears. The P2 prototype used this trans with a western engine. The P3 prototype with the Ukrainian 6TD-2 had its own transmission with 7 forward and 4 reverse gears. Why was the French tans picked over the Ukrainian one? (Some people still claim it uses the Ukrainian one). Also, if available, what is the reverse speed of the AK series?

How accurate is this analysis, as it claims the trans is not the French one but the Ukrainian one.




@Dazzler ^ , thank you and sorry for the repeated tags.


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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> The AK uses French ESM-500 transmission with 5 forward and 2 reverse gears. The P2 prototype used this trans with a western engine. The P3 prototype with the Ukrainian 6TD-2 had its own transmission with 7 forward and 4 reverse gears. Why was the French tans picked over the Ukrainian one? (Some people still claim it uses the Ukrainian one). Also, if available, what is the reverse speed of the AK series?
> 
> How accurate is this analysis, as it claims the trans is not the French one but the Ukrainian one.
> View attachment 739873
> View attachment 739873
> 
> @Dazzler ^ , thank you and sorry for the repeated tags.


Perhaps it was chosen because of reliability?


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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> Around 35 at the moment, but is increasing n soon will hit 50


Are they being used to replace t59/69s or to raise new regts?


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Are they being used to replace t59/69s or to raise new regts?


Type 59s still being upgraded to AZs I believe, in total we will have a 1000 when the upgrades complete with over 800 done already. The rest will likely be retired/put in storage. Not sure how long the Type 69s will stay. I believe VT4s will be replacing them.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Type 59s still being upgraded to AZs I believe, in total we will have a 1000 when the upgrades complete with over 800 done already. The rest will likely be retired/put in storage. Not sure how long the Type 69s will stay. I believe VT4s will be replacing them.


Currently VT4s are replacing AZs


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## Dazzler

iLION12345_1 said:


> The AK uses French ESM-500 transmission with 5 forward and 2 reverse gears. The P2 prototype used this trans with a western engine. The P3 prototype with the Ukrainian 6TD-2 had its own transmission with 7 forward and 4 reverse gears. Why was the French tans picked over the Ukrainian one? (Some people still claim it uses the Ukrainian one). Also, if available, what is the reverse speed of the AK series?
> 
> How accurate is this analysis, as it claims the trans is not the French one but the Ukrainian one.
> View attachment 739920
> 
> @Dazzler ^ , thank you and sorry for the repeated tags.



Ak uses Ukrainian power pack and transmission, not the french one. It was tested on one of the prototypes.

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Currently VT4s are replacing AZs


Really? I don’t think so, AZs will serve till at least 2030, why replace AZ when there is Type 69 and 59 to be replaced? AZ project was restarted just a few years back, they were making more, why’d they be replacing them? I may be wrong.

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## Dazzler

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Currently VT4s are replacing AZs



Not true.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Type 59s still being upgraded to AZs I believe, in total we will have a 1000 when the upgrades complete with over 800 done already. The rest will likely be retired/put in storage. Not sure how long the Type 69s will stay. I believe VT4s will be replacing them.



AZ production capped at 500 mbts.

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## Raja Porus

Dazzler said:


> Not true


VT4s are replacing AZs of 6armd div. By replacing I mean that only in one particular formation, I didn't mean that they are being retired. Perhaps the AZs( previously of 6th armd div) are being used to form idp bdes or replace t59/69s.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Not true.
> 
> 
> AZ production capped at 500 mbts.


So what about all the other type 59s? Still in service? I suppose those will be replaced by incoming AK-1s and VT-4s. I saw some other members discussing continuation of AZ program a while back, including Signalian.

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## Dazzler

Desert Fox 1 said:


> VT4s are replacing AZs of 6armd div



True

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## Reichmarshal

The two orignal contenders for AK engine. 
On the left is a 1200 hp perkins engine and on the right is the eventual winner a 1200 hp 6td2.

Just the size difference is huge n just for that I would have picked 6td2 over perkins any day.

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## TsAr

Reichmarshal said:


> View attachment 740005
> 
> The two orignal contenders for AK engine.
> On the left is a 1200 hp perkins engine and on the right is the eventual winner a 1200 hp 6td2.
> 
> Just the size difference is huge n just for that I would have picked 6td2 over perkins any day.


well the Ukrainian is half the size of perkin...

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## Type59

Reichmarshal said:


> View attachment 740005
> 
> The two orignal contenders for AK engine.
> On the left is a 1200 hp perkins engine and on the right is the eventual winner a 1200 hp 6td2.
> 
> Just the size difference is huge n just for that I would have picked 6td2 over perkins any day.



Seriously unbelievable


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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> View attachment 740005
> 
> The two orignal contenders for AK engine.
> On the left is a 1200 hp perkins engine and on the right is the eventual winner a 1200 hp 6td2.
> 
> Just the size difference is huge n just for that I would have picked 6td2 over perkins any day.


I wouldn’t have picked the 6TD-2, neither would have Pakistan if it had the option. Maybe the Perkins is Too big (but keep in mind it has the cooling system attached to it there, which for 6TD-2 is separate), but there could definitely have been better options had there not been issues with procurement. 
6TD-2 makes very very poor torque. The 1200HP figure makes it look like it’s a powerful engine when in reality it performs closer to the 1000HP diesel in a T90A. It’s very underperforming for the HP it puts out, in tanks HP is not a good indicator of performance, torque is.

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## Reichmarshal

with the procurement of VT4, PA might be moving away from 6TD2 and replacing it with the Chinese engine powering vt4 .
as it has performed outstandingly, so much so that when vt4 came for trials initially, PA just asked the Chinese for the engine.

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> I wouldn’t have picked the 6TD-2, neither would have Pakistan if it had the option. Maybe the Perkins is Too big (but keep in mind it has the cooling system attached to it there, which for 6TD-2 is separate), but there could definitely have been better options had there not been issues with procurement.
> 6TD-2 makes very very poor torque. The 1200HP figure makes it look like it’s a powerful engine when in reality it performs closer to the 1000HP diesel in a T90A. It’s very underperforming for the HP it puts out, in tanks HP is not a good indicator of performance, torque is.


6td2 is a good reliable engine that has performed and served PA well throughout its service in all terrains and PA is pretty satisfied with its performance.
But having said that just like life their is always room for improvement and I am sure PA would have loved to have a1500 hp engine powering AK or even better the *Honeywell AGT1500C* gas turbine engine.
but just as in life one has to make compromises to make things work so as not to drown in others' wishes and expectations.

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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> with the procurement of VT4, PA might be moving away from 6TD2 and replacing it with the Chinese engine powering vt4 .
> as it has performed outstandingly, so much so that when vt4 came for trials initially, PA just asked the Chinese for the engine.


for AK-2 I believe both the Chinese and Ukrainian 1500HP options are open, but I think the Chinese one would serve us better, Chinese tech of the 90s and of the 2020s is worlds apart.


Reichmarshal said:


> 6td2 is a good reliable engine that has performed and served PA well throughout its service in all terrains and PA is pretty satisfied with its performance.
> But having said that just like life their is always room for improvement and I am sure PA would have loved to have a1500 hp engine powering AK or even better the *Honeywell AGT1500C* gas turbine engine.
> but just as in life one has to make compromises to make things work and not to drown in others' wishes and expectations.


Very True, It is definitely reliable and it’s served us well, I didn’t mean to call it a bad engine, just underpowered, but for the AKs size and role it was good enough. Pakistan has a history of working with the little it has and making it work. Can always be improved in the future.

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## iLION12345_1

Are there any photos available of the armored Ammo storage in the AK? Or the storage compartment between the engine and fighting compartment?


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## Scorpiooo

Reichmarshal said:


> View attachment 740005
> 
> The two orignal contenders for AK engine.
> On the left is a 1200 hp perkins engine and on the right is the eventual winner a 1200 hp 6td2.
> 
> Just the size difference is huge n just for that I would have picked 6td2 over perkins any day.


Almost 4 time larger engine on left side


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## iLION12345_1

Many people have confusion regarding the Al-Khalid project, they confuse it with other tanks in the same series or think that it’s a Chinese tank, so I had written this short article to try and explain the timeline as well as the indigenization of the Al-Khalid project. I have not discussed any specifications or numbers in it to keep it objective and to not have to bother with sources, as it’s entirely a factual article. I had written this for some foreign defense communities as they usually have confusion regarding this, but decided to post it here as well.
Planning to make similar articles for Al-Zarrar and the JF-17 project, because people think the former is just a Type 59 and the latter is a Chinese aircraft. Help is appreciated. Feel free to highlight Any mistakes, there’s bound to be something I missed or got wrong. Thank you.


NOTE: Chinese tanks are GENERALLY named according to the following convention:

Type XY-I/II/III-A/B/C (XY numbers denote generations, with type 59, 69 and 79 being first generation, 80, 85, 88 being second generation and 90, 96, 99 being third generation tanks. I/II/III denote the models of the tank, with the higher numbers being later models, the letters at the end denote further sub-variants within models, with consecutive letters meaning newer variants. If an older model, such as a Type-85-IIA is modernized, an M is added to its name, hence Type 85-IIAM.)

*Background*:

The Type 80 series was the second generation of Chinese MBTs. Type 85-IIA variant of this MBT was exported and was locally manufactured in Pakistan under the Designation Type-85-IIAP.
Eventually China decided to modernize the Type 85-IIA tank, both for local use and export. Pakistan also joined this modernization project. The prototypes of this modernization were tested in Pakistan and the funding was shared as well. Pakistan had joined this program as it would give them design and production rights to this tank, which they would use later to make Al-Khalid.
This new modernization was named Type-85-IIAM, this tank was later renamed Type 90-II and became China’s first third generation MBT, unveiled in 1991. This MBT was only offered for export, China did not adopt this MBT, instead they Made yet another version of the Type 80 series, called the Type 85-III, for local use, which was renamed Type 88C in Chinese service, and with further upgrades, was renamed Type 96, which continues to serve in PLA.

*PART 1; Beginning of Al-Khalid program: *

Pakistan, which had already been using Type-85–IIA tanks, decided to use the aforementioned Type 90-II platform for their next generation tank as well; they had gained the design and production rights to this tank as they had been partners with China in the project that created it.

NOTE: This is where many people get the idea that the Al-Khalid was a joint Pakistan-China project. The Al-Khalid uses No Chinese components apart from the base design. The Type 90-II was a joint Pakistan-China project. Not the Al-Khalid.

So Pakistan took the Hull and turret design of Type-90-II and set out to make their own tank with it. Pakistan did this because in the 1990s they did not have the capability to design their own tank from the ground up.

*Timeline*:

1991: Type 90-II is unveiled.

1992: Al-Khalid program starts at HIT. This is an entirely Pakistani funded program. The head of the program is Brigadier General Nasir Mehmood of the Pakistan army. Four prototypes are made:
P1: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader, FCS, German engine and transmission.
P2: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader. European (mainly French) FCS. British Engine, French transmission.
P3: Chinese 125mm gun, autoloader, European (mainly French) FCS. Ukrainian Engine and transmission.
P4: German NATO standard 120mm gun. Western (mainly German) FCS. German engine and Transmission.

NOTE: Pakistan generally preferred the western systems, particularly P1 and P2 prototypes, but due to Western sanctions on China, Pakistan could not get production licenses for these systems, later in 1998 Pakistan was also sanctioned by western countries due to its nuclear program so it was forced into picking P3 prototype.

2000: China releases its own modernized version of the Type 90-II, with entirely Chinese systems, called the Type 90-IIM (refer to the naming system explained above), also meant for export. China renames this Tank to VT-1 and offers it for export. Bangladesh bought these.

2001: Al-Khalid enters production. The production model is based on the P3 prototype, but with changes to further reduce Chinese technology from the tank.
NOTE: The parts of the Al-Khalid which were foreign sourced in the original production variant were slowly indigenized by Pakistan as it gained the capability to do so, these are covered later.

2010: Pakistan starts work on the Al-Khalid-1, which would be the second version of the Al-Khalid, despite its name.

2011: China unveils the VT1-A, a further improved version of its VT-1 export tank. This one is also aimed at export and has only Chinese components. Myanmar, Morocco and Peru bought these.

2017: Work on the Al-Khalid-1 is finished and it enters production. Al-Khalid (original) production is stopped.

NOTE: Keep in mind there have been two different variants of Al-Khalid-1 as well, the one that entered service in 2020 had some notable upgrades over the original one we saw in 2015-16, either very few or none of those entered service. The late induction of the tank was down to the project being slowed/halted due to the shortage of funds during the war on terror. They may have done the upgrade to bring it closer to modern technology as it was entering service late.

2020: Al-Khalid-1 Is inducted into the Pakistan army. Production continues. Development work on Al-Khalid 2 is also underway.

NOTE: The Chinese VT-4 tank is China's next export tank, replacing the VT-1A. It does carry on some of the design base of the Type 90-II hull, but it is an entirely different, and entirely Chinese tank, closer in capability to their Type 99A. It has been exported to Thailand, Nigeria and Pakistan (Pakistans version having some major upgrades over the former two.)



*PART 2: Indigenization of the Al-Khalid:*

While the original production variant used components from France, Germany, Pakistan and Ukraine, the current variants have been mostly indigenized by Pakistan.

Base armor: While the design for the turret and hull is Chinese, the armor of Al-Khalid is not identical to Chinese VT-1. The armor is designed by Pakistan with Ukrainian support, the composites on hull and turret as well as the NERA elements are thought to be based on Ukrainian designs but made by Pakistan. Armor was designed by HIT.

Explosive Reactive Armor: The Al-Khalid originally used AORAK-1 ERA. This ERA was rather quickly replaced with a better variant called AORAK-2. It is also used on Pakistani Al-Zarrar. Both of these ERAs are designed by Pakistani company GIDS.

Main Gun: Though the P3 prototype had a Chinese gun, Production models have a gun designed by HIT, it is a combination of the ZPT-98 and KBA3 (2A46) Gun designs. Originally gun blanks were imported from France then machined in Pakistan. Starting 2011 Pakistan started making guns locally, Germany helped Pakistan set up its gun manufacturing plant. The Autoloader was originally Ukrainian, similar design to T72 auto-loaders, but Al-Khalid-1 uses a new autoloader designed by pakistani company CARE. It is faster and can accommodate longer ammunition.

Ammunition: The standard Ammo was originally Pakistani APFSDS, which was simply designated APFSDS-T, Made by POF. Starting 2007 Naiza DU was inducted. It is basically Chinese 125-IIM APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid-1 can also fire newer Naiza-2, which is Chinese BTA-4/DTW-125 APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid (original) could not use these due to length limitation of the auto-loader. ATGMs are Russian.

Power pack: Al-Khalid used Ukrainian 6TD-2 engine. Al-Khalid-1 uses 6TD-2E engine. The latter being more efficient, power output is the same. Transmission is 7 forward 4 reverse gears, also Ukrainian. All of this is directly imported from Ukraine, Pakistan does not have the capability to make these locally, but is working on license production capability with Ukraine.

Fire control system: The FCS in the original AK was the ISFCS-122B, which is a Pakistani modified version of the Chinese ISFCS-122, it was upgraded with French assistance to accommodate features like auto-tracking. Al-Khalid-1 uses a new, entirely Pakistani FCS and GCS made by SHIBLI and HIT. The thermal sights in the Original system were Catherine FC, in the newer one they are SAGEM MATIS. Both are French sights made under license in Pakistan By GIDS (SAGEM MATIS) and SHIBLI (Catherine FC).

Other components:
The muzzle reference system as well as the Laser rangefinders are From HIT.
Laser warning receivers are from Pakistani company ALTCOP.
IBMS is designed by HIT and CARE.
The thermal coating on Al-Khalid is designed by HIT in collaboration with a Greek company, INTERMAT.
Radios, Air conditioning, the NBC protection system, Multi-functional displays and other smaller components were already indigenous in the original variant.

TLDR: The only foreign parts in Al-Khalid are The thermal sights and The power pack.

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## Aryeih Leib

iLION12345_1 said:


> Many people have confusion regarding the Al-Khalid project, they confuse it with other tanks in the same series or think that it’s a Chinese tank, so I had written this short article to try and explain the timeline as well as the indigenization of the Al-Khalid project. I have not discussed any specifications or numbers in it to keep it objective and to not have to bother with sources, as it’s entirely a factual article. I had written this for some foreign defense communities as they usually have confusion regarding this, but decided to post it here as well.
> Planning to make similar articles for Al-Zarrar and the JF-17 project, because people think the former is just a Type 59 and the latter is a Chinese aircraft. Help is appreciated. Feel free to highlight Any mistakes, there’s bound to be something I missed or got wrong. Thank you.
> 
> 
> NOTE: Chinese tanks are GENERALLY named according to the following convention:
> 
> Type XY-I/II/III-A/B/C (XY numbers denote generations, with type 59, 69 and 79 being first generation, 80, 85, 88 being second generation and 90, 96, 99 being third generation tanks. I/II/III denote the models of the tank, with the higher numbers being later models, the letters at the end denote further sub-variants within models, with consecutive letters meaning newer variants. If an older model, such as a Type-85-IIA is modernized, an M is added to its name, hence Type 85-IIAM.)
> 
> *Background*:
> 
> The Type 80 series was the second generation of Chinese MBTs. Type 85-IIA variant of this MBT was exported and was locally manufactured in Pakistan under the Designation Type-85-IIAP.
> Eventually China decided to modernize the Type 85-IIA tank, both for local use and export. Pakistan also joined this modernization project. The prototypes of this modernization were tested in Pakistan and the funding was shared as well. Pakistan had joined this program as it would give them design and production rights to this tank, which they would use later to make Al-Khalid.
> This new modernization was named Type-85-IIAM, this tank was later renamed Type 90-II and became China’s first third generation MBT, unveiled in 1991. This MBT was only offered for export, China did not adopt this MBT, instead they Made yet another version of the Type 80 series, called the Type 85-III, for local use, which was renamed Type 88C in Chinese service, and with further upgrades, was renamed Type 96, which continues to serve in PLA.
> 
> *PART 1; Beginning of Al-Khalid program: *
> 
> Pakistan, which had already been using Type-85–IIA tanks, decided to use the aforementioned Type 90-II platform for their next generation tank as well; they had gained the design and production rights to this tank as they had been partners with China in the project that created it.
> 
> NOTE: This is where many people get the idea that the Al-Khalid was a joint Pakistan-China project. The Al-Khalid uses No Chinese components apart from the base design. The Type 90-II was a joint Pakistan-China project. Not the Al-Khalid.
> 
> So Pakistan took the Hull and turret design of Type-90-II and set out to make their own tank with it. Pakistan did this because in the 1990s they did not have the capability to design their own tank from the ground up.
> 
> *Timeline*:
> 
> 1991: Type 90-II is unveiled.
> 
> 1992: Al-Khalid program starts at HIT. This is an entirely Pakistani funded program. The head of the program is Brigadier General Nasir Mehmood of the Pakistan army. Four prototypes are made:
> P1: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader, FCS, German engine and transmission.
> P2: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader. European (mainly French) FCS. British Engine, French transmission.
> P3: Chinese 125mm gun, autoloader, European (mainly French) FCS. Ukrainian Engine and transmission.
> P4: German NATO standard 120mm gun. Western (mainly German) FCS. German engine and Transmission.
> 
> NOTE: Pakistan generally preferred the western systems, particularly P1 and P2 prototypes, but due to Western sanctions on China, Pakistan could not get production licenses for these systems, later in 1998 Pakistan was also sanctioned by western countries due to its nuclear program so it was forced into picking P3 prototype.
> 
> 2000: China releases its own modernized version of the Type 90-II, with entirely Chinese systems, called the Type 90-IIM (refer to the naming system explained above), also meant for export. China renames this Tank to VT-1 and offers it for export. Bangladesh bought these.
> 
> 2001: Al-Khalid enters production. The production model is based on the P3 prototype, but with changes to further reduce Chinese technology from the tank.
> NOTE: The parts of the Al-Khalid which were foreign sourced in the original production variant were slowly indigenized by Pakistan as it gained the capability to do so, these are covered later.
> 
> 2010: Pakistan starts work on the Al-Khalid-1, which would be the second version of the Al-Khalid, despite its name.
> 
> 2011: China unveils the VT1-A, a further improved version of its VT-1 export tank. This one is also aimed at export and has only Chinese components. Myanmar, Morocco and Peru bought these.
> 
> 2017: Work on the Al-Khalid-1 is finished and it enters production. Al-Khalid (original) production is stopped.
> 
> NOTE: Keep in mind there have been two different variants of Al-Khalid-1 as well, the one that entered service in 2020 had some notable upgrades over the original one we saw in 2015-16, either very few or none of those entered service. The late induction of the tank was down to the project being slowed/halted due to the shortage of funds during the war on terror. They may have done the upgrade to bring it closer to modern technology as it was entering service late.
> 
> 2020: Al-Khalid-1 Is inducted into the Pakistan army. Production continues. Development work on Al-Khalid 2 is also underway.
> 
> NOTE: The Chinese VT-4 tank is China's next export tank, replacing the VT-1A. It does carry on some of the design base of the Type 90-II hull, but it is an entirely different, and entirely Chinese tank, closer in capability to their Type 99A. It has been exported to Thailand, Nigeria and Pakistan (Pakistans version having some major upgrades over the former two.)
> 
> 
> 
> *PART 2: Indigenization of the Al-Khalid:*
> 
> While the original production variant used components from France, Germany, Pakistan and Ukraine, the current variants have been mostly indigenized by Pakistan.
> 
> Base armor: While the design for the turret and hull is Chinese, the armor of Al-Khalid is not identical to Chinese VT-1. The armor is designed by Pakistan with Ukrainian support, the composites on hull and turret as well as the NERA elements are thought to be based on Ukrainian designs but made by Pakistan. Armor was designed by HIT.
> 
> Explosive Reactive Armor: The Al-Khalid originally used AORAK-1 ERA. This ERA was rather quickly replaced with a better variant called AORAK-2. It is also used on Pakistani Al-Zarrar. Both of these ERAs are designed by Pakistani company GIDS.
> 
> Main Gun: Though the P3 prototype had a Chinese gun, Production models have a gun designed by HIT, it is a combination of the ZPT-98 and KBA3 (2A46) Gun designs. Originally gun blanks were imported from France then machined in Pakistan. Starting 2011 Pakistan started making guns locally, Germany helped Pakistan set up its gun manufacturing plant. The Autoloader was originally Ukrainian, similar design to T72 auto-loaders, but Al-Khalid-1 uses a new autoloader designed by pakistani company CARE. It is faster and can accommodate longer ammunition.
> 
> Ammunition: The standard Ammo was originally Pakistani APFSDS, which was simply designated APFSDS-T, Made by POF. Starting 2007 Naiza DU was inducted. It is basically Chinese 125-IIM APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid-1 can also fire newer Naiza-2, which is Chinese BTA-4/DTW-125 APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid (original) could not use these due to length limitation of the auto-loader. ATGMs are Russian.
> 
> Power pack: Al-Khalid used Ukrainian 6TD-2 engine. Al-Khalid-1 uses 6TD-2E engine. The latter being more efficient, power output is the same. Transmission is 7 forward 4 reverse gears, also Ukrainian. All of this is directly imported from Ukraine, Pakistan does not have the capability to make these locally, but is working on license production capability with Ukraine.
> 
> Fire control system: The FCS in the original AK was the ISFCS-122B, which is a Pakistani modified version of the Chinese ISFCS-122, it was upgraded with French assistance to accommodate features like auto-tracking. Al-Khalid-1 uses a new, entirely Pakistani FCS and GCS made by SHIBLI and HIT. The thermal sights in the Original system were Catherine FC, in the newer one they are SAGEM MATIS. Both are French sights made under license in Pakistan SHIBLI.
> 
> Other components:
> The muzzle reference system as well as the Laser rangefinders are From HIT.
> Laser warning receivers are from Pakistani company ALTCOP.
> IBMS is designed by HIT and CARE.
> The thermal coating on Al-Khalid is designed by HIT in collaboration with a Greek company, INTERMAT.
> Radios, Air conditioning, the NBC protection system, Multi-functional displays and other smaller components were already indigenous in the original variant.
> 
> TLDR: The only foreign parts in Al-Khalid are The thermal sights and The power pack.


Can I share this on my facebook page with due credits ofcourse

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## iLION12345_1

Aryeih Leib said:


> Can I share this on my facebook page with due credits ofcourse


Of course, go ahead.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Of course, go ahead.


Thanks for the effort.
The baseline AK can't fire the Naiza-2 ?
Also what's your estimate of the number of AKs( both baseline and I)

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Thanks for the effort.
> The baseline AK can't fire the Naiza-2 ?
> Also what's your estimate of the number of AKs( both baseline and I)


Yes, the baseline AK cannot fire Naiza-2, it’s limited to shells of 700mm and under, need around 730mm for Naiza-2. (these are just my estimates though) With the auto-loader upgrade in AK-1 it can fire them. That’s also why PAs Type 85UGs can fire it, because they got the same auto-loader as AK-1. Currently apart from Al-Zarrar and baseline AK all PA tanks can fire Naiza-2.

As for numbers, at least 500 AKs and over 100 AK-1s with more in production (the first order was for 220, there will very likely be a follow up order.)
MODP yearbooks give around 420 for AK, but those are likely incorrect as it doesn’t make sense for the number of regiments and locations we have AKs in.

Video of the autoloader in AK-1 and Type 85UG (note foreign officers in the back).
This ones not only slightly faster, more reliable and can accommodate larger rounds, but is also solid state (no relays in the system) and fully reprogrammable. It also has its own display to show ammo count of each type as well as the number of empty trays. Also shows and helps diagnose any faults in the system.

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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes, the baseline AK cannot fire Naiza-2, it’s limited to shells of 700mm and under, need around 730mm for Naiza-2. (these are just my estimates though) With the auto-loader upgrade in AK-1 it can fire them. That’s also why PAs Type 85UGs can fire it, because they got the same auto-loader as AK-1. Currently apart from Al-Zarrar and baseline AK all PA tanks can fire Naiza-2.
> 
> As for numbers, at least 500 AKs and over 100 AK-1s with more in production (the first order was for 220, there will very likely be a follow up order.)
> MODP yearbooks give around 420 for AK, but those are likely incorrect as it doesn’t make sense for the number of regiments and locations we have AKs in.
> 
> Video of the autoloader in AK-1 and Type 85UG (note foreign officers in the back).
> This ones not only slightly faster, more reliable and can accommodate larger rounds, but is also solid state (no relays in the system) and fully reprogrammable. It also has its own display to show ammo count of each type as well as the number of empty trays. Also shows and helps diagnose any faults in the system.


What is the pent rating performance of the naiza 2 Apfsds round?


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## iLION12345_1

Huffal said:


> What is the pent rating performance of the naiza 2 Apfsds round?



For Naiza-1 it’s 220MM/66.5 degrees at 2 KM. For Naiza-2 it’s 220MM/68.5 Degrees at 2KM. Using simple LOS conversions these numbers are around 570-600MM/0 degrees and 630-650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM respectively. Naiza-1 is used on Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid. Naiza-2 can be used on Type 85UG, T80UD/T84, Al-Khalid-1 and VT-4.

For comparison the standard Indian Ammunition for its T90S tanks, the BM42, has a penetration of around 460MM/0 degrees at 2 KM. The standard ammo for Indian T72, the BM17 has about 300MM/0 Degrees at 2KM.
The standard ammunition in Russian service (excluding the T-14), The Svinets APFSDS, has similar penetration numbers to Naiza-2, while their optional Svinets-1 (and newer designs for T-14) have higher numbers.

Keep in mind all of these numbers at 0 degrees are rough LOS calculations and in real life they are generally lower, these are kinda calculated under ideal standards, in real life there’s so many more factors, but these can give an estimate of performance.

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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> For Naiza-1 it’s 220MM/66.5 degrees at 2 KM. For Naiza-2 it’s 220MM/68.5 Degrees at 2KM. Using simple LOS conversions these numbers are around 570-600MM/0 degrees and 630-650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM respectively. Naiza-1 is used on Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid. Naiza-2 can be used on Type 85UG, T80UD/T84, Al-Khalid-1 and VT-4.
> 
> For comparison the standard Indian Ammunition for its T90S tanks, the BM42, has a penetration of around 460MM/0 degrees at 2 KM. The standard ammo for Indian T72, the BM17 has about 300MM/0 Degrees at 2KM.
> The standard ammunition in Russian service (excluding the T-14), The Svinets APFSDS, has similar penetration numbers to Naiza-2, while their optional Svinets-1 (and newer designs for T-14) have higher numbers.
> 
> Keep in mind all of these numbers at 0 degrees are rough LOS calculations and in real life they are generally lower, these are kinda calculated under ideal standards, in real life there’s so many more factors, but these can give an estimate of performance.


Thank you for this. It's much needed info. I never really knew we made the naiza 2. I thought we were using the 125II round for our tanks.

Also bm17 for the t72? In this day and age? Holy crap that's terrible.


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## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> Many people have confusion regarding the Al-Khalid project, they confuse it with other tanks in the same series or think that it’s a Chinese tank, so I had written this short article to try and explain the timeline as well as the indigenization of the Al-Khalid project. I have not discussed any specifications or numbers in it to keep it objective and to not have to bother with sources, as it’s entirely a factual article. I had written this for some foreign defense communities as they usually have confusion regarding this, but decided to post it here as well.
> Planning to make similar articles for Al-Zarrar and the JF-17 project, because people think the former is just a Type 59 and the latter is a Chinese aircraft. Help is appreciated. Feel free to highlight Any mistakes, there’s bound to be something I missed or got wrong. Thank you.
> 
> 
> NOTE: Chinese tanks are GENERALLY named according to the following convention:
> 
> Type XY-I/II/III-A/B/C (XY numbers denote generations, with type 59, 69 and 79 being first generation, 80, 85, 88 being second generation and 90, 96, 99 being third generation tanks. I/II/III denote the models of the tank, with the higher numbers being later models, the letters at the end denote further sub-variants within models, with consecutive letters meaning newer variants. If an older model, such as a Type-85-IIA is modernized, an M is added to its name, hence Type 85-IIAM.)
> 
> *Background*:
> 
> The Type 80 series was the second generation of Chinese MBTs. Type 85-IIA variant of this MBT was exported and was locally manufactured in Pakistan under the Designation Type-85-IIAP.
> Eventually China decided to modernize the Type 85-IIA tank, both for local use and export. Pakistan also joined this modernization project. The prototypes of this modernization were tested in Pakistan and the funding was shared as well. Pakistan had joined this program as it would give them design and production rights to this tank, which they would use later to make Al-Khalid.
> This new modernization was named Type-85-IIAM, this tank was later renamed Type 90-II and became China’s first third generation MBT, unveiled in 1991. This MBT was only offered for export, China did not adopt this MBT, instead they Made yet another version of the Type 80 series, called the Type 85-III, for local use, which was renamed Type 88C in Chinese service, and with further upgrades, was renamed Type 96, which continues to serve in PLA.
> 
> *PART 1; Beginning of Al-Khalid program: *
> 
> Pakistan, which had already been using Type-85–IIA tanks, decided to use the aforementioned Type 90-II platform for their next generation tank as well; they had gained the design and production rights to this tank as they had been partners with China in the project that created it.
> 
> NOTE: This is where many people get the idea that the Al-Khalid was a joint Pakistan-China project. The Al-Khalid uses No Chinese components apart from the base design. The Type 90-II was a joint Pakistan-China project. Not the Al-Khalid.
> 
> So Pakistan took the Hull and turret design of Type-90-II and set out to make their own tank with it. Pakistan did this because in the 1990s they did not have the capability to design their own tank from the ground up.
> 
> *Timeline*:
> 
> 1991: Type 90-II is unveiled.
> 
> 1992: Al-Khalid program starts at HIT. This is an entirely Pakistani funded program. The head of the program is Brigadier General Nasir Mehmood of the Pakistan army. Four prototypes are made:
> P1: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader, FCS, German engine and transmission.
> P2: Chinese 125mm gun, auto loader. European (mainly French) FCS. British Engine, French transmission.
> P3: Chinese 125mm gun, autoloader, European (mainly French) FCS. Ukrainian Engine and transmission.
> P4: German NATO standard 120mm gun. Western (mainly German) FCS. German engine and Transmission.
> 
> NOTE: Pakistan generally preferred the western systems, particularly P1 and P2 prototypes, but due to Western sanctions on China, Pakistan could not get production licenses for these systems, later in 1998 Pakistan was also sanctioned by western countries due to its nuclear program so it was forced into picking P3 prototype.
> 
> 2000: China releases its own modernized version of the Type 90-II, with entirely Chinese systems, called the Type 90-IIM (refer to the naming system explained above), also meant for export. China renames this Tank to VT-1 and offers it for export. Bangladesh bought these.
> 
> 2001: Al-Khalid enters production. The production model is based on the P3 prototype, but with changes to further reduce Chinese technology from the tank.
> NOTE: The parts of the Al-Khalid which were foreign sourced in the original production variant were slowly indigenized by Pakistan as it gained the capability to do so, these are covered later.
> 
> 2010: Pakistan starts work on the Al-Khalid-1, which would be the second version of the Al-Khalid, despite its name.
> 
> 2011: China unveils the VT1-A, a further improved version of its VT-1 export tank. This one is also aimed at export and has only Chinese components. Myanmar, Morocco and Peru bought these.
> 
> 2017: Work on the Al-Khalid-1 is finished and it enters production. Al-Khalid (original) production is stopped.
> 
> NOTE: Keep in mind there have been two different variants of Al-Khalid-1 as well, the one that entered service in 2020 had some notable upgrades over the original one we saw in 2015-16, either very few or none of those entered service. The late induction of the tank was down to the project being slowed/halted due to the shortage of funds during the war on terror. They may have done the upgrade to bring it closer to modern technology as it was entering service late.
> 
> 2020: Al-Khalid-1 Is inducted into the Pakistan army. Production continues. Development work on Al-Khalid 2 is also underway.
> 
> NOTE: The Chinese VT-4 tank is China's next export tank, replacing the VT-1A. It does carry on some of the design base of the Type 90-II hull, but it is an entirely different, and entirely Chinese tank, closer in capability to their Type 99A. It has been exported to Thailand, Nigeria and Pakistan (Pakistans version having some major upgrades over the former two.)
> 
> 
> 
> *PART 2: Indigenization of the Al-Khalid:*
> 
> While the original production variant used components from France, Germany, Pakistan and Ukraine, the current variants have been mostly indigenized by Pakistan.
> 
> Base armor: While the design for the turret and hull is Chinese, the armor of Al-Khalid is not identical to Chinese VT-1. The armor is designed by Pakistan with Ukrainian support, the composites on hull and turret as well as the NERA elements are thought to be based on Ukrainian designs but made by Pakistan. Armor was designed by HIT.
> 
> Explosive Reactive Armor: The Al-Khalid originally used AORAK-1 ERA. This ERA was rather quickly replaced with a better variant called AORAK-2. It is also used on Pakistani Al-Zarrar. Both of these ERAs are designed by Pakistani company GIDS.
> 
> Main Gun: Though the P3 prototype had a Chinese gun, Production models have a gun designed by HIT, it is a combination of the ZPT-98 and KBA3 (2A46) Gun designs. Originally gun blanks were imported from France then machined in Pakistan. Starting 2011 Pakistan started making guns locally, Germany helped Pakistan set up its gun manufacturing plant. The Autoloader was originally Ukrainian, similar design to T72 auto-loaders, but Al-Khalid-1 uses a new autoloader designed by pakistani company CARE. It is faster and can accommodate longer ammunition.
> 
> Ammunition: The standard Ammo was originally Pakistani APFSDS, which was simply designated APFSDS-T, Made by POF. Starting 2007 Naiza DU was inducted. It is basically Chinese 125-IIM APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid-1 can also fire newer Naiza-2, which is Chinese BTA-4/DTW-125 APFSDS produced in Pakistan. Al-Khalid (original) could not use these due to length limitation of the auto-loader. ATGMs are Russian.
> 
> Power pack: Al-Khalid used Ukrainian 6TD-2 engine. Al-Khalid-1 uses 6TD-2E engine. The latter being more efficient, power output is the same. Transmission is 7 forward 4 reverse gears, also Ukrainian. All of this is directly imported from Ukraine, Pakistan does not have the capability to make these locally, but is working on license production capability with Ukraine.
> 
> Fire control system: The FCS in the original AK was the ISFCS-122B, which is a Pakistani modified version of the Chinese ISFCS-122, it was upgraded with French assistance to accommodate features like auto-tracking. Al-Khalid-1 uses a new, entirely Pakistani FCS and GCS made by SHIBLI and HIT. The thermal sights in the Original system were Catherine FC, in the newer one they are SAGEM MATIS. Both are French sights made under license in Pakistan SHIBLI.
> 
> Other components:
> The muzzle reference system as well as the Laser rangefinders are From HIT.
> Laser warning receivers are from Pakistani company ALTCOP.
> IBMS is designed by HIT and CARE.
> The thermal coating on Al-Khalid is designed by HIT in collaboration with a Greek company, INTERMAT.
> Radios, Air conditioning, the NBC protection system, Multi-functional displays and other smaller components were already indigenous in the original variant.
> 
> TLDR: The only foreign parts in Al-Khalid are The thermal sights and The power pack.


But Shibli does not have the french sights you mentioned in their product catalogue.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Huffal said:


> Thank you for this. It's much needed info. I never really knew we made the naiza 2. I thought we were using the 125II round for our tanks.
> 
> Also bm17 for the t72? In this day and age? Holy crap that's terrible.



originally Pakistani Al-Khalids, T80UDs, Al-Zarrars and Type 85s were using POFs APFSDS-T, which is pretty much the same as BM-42. By this I mean in the 90s, while india got BM42 starting 2015 and were still buying it in 2019.
We got the design from the Ukrainians. As far as I’m aware Pakistan has never used 125-II.

Pakistan instead went for Naiza-1 (125-IIM), which is basically the depleted uranium version of 125-II, it was inducted a few years after APFSDS-T and used along side it, With the former being the standard projectile and the latter being carried for harder targets, along with ATGMs.
I believe this setup is still followed, as it’s more cost effective. Something like the Naiza is overkill for T72s and Arjuns, I wonder if they are trained specifically to identify different Indian tanks and change projectiles accordingly.

Naiza-2 is basically Chinese DTW-125/BTA-4 APFSDS, the next step from 125-IIM and a step below the Chinese 125-III (used only in their Type 99A models, other Chinese tanks also use BTA-4),
I’m not sure just how many Pakistan has produced itself or if it still produces them, but I know for sure local production was considered as Naiza-2 was brought up a few times at POF before VT-4 was inducted.
These are currently used as the standard ammunition in our VT-4s and may also be used alongside Other ammunition in Type 85UG, AK-1, T80UD, so I assume they are being produced locally now. POF definitely has the capability to make them. Either way, it’s confirmed that PA uses them.

And yes, BM17, I’m unsure if modernized Indian T72s can fire BM42, I assume they can, but 800 or so of their active T72 (and all the ones in reserve) are stock. They cannot fire anything better than a BM17 due to the limitations of their FCS.

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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> But Shibli does not have the french sights you mentioned in their product catalogue.


That’s because they’d rather offer their own stuff, these contracts to SHIBLI and GIDS were from the armed forces especially, not offered for commercial usage.
SHIBLI was mostly involved in the projects related to Catherine Thermal sights for Original Al-Khalid, T80UD, Type 85 and our older tanks. While GIDS was involved in the AK-1 project to build and integrate SAGEM MATIS sights, both of these were joint projects with the European companies that make these systems, THALES and SAGEM (now SAFRAN S.A).









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----------



## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s because they’d rather offer their own stuff, these contracts to SHIBLI and GIDS were from the armed forces especially, not offered for commercial usage.
> SHIBLI was mostly involved in the projects related to Catherine Thermal sights for Original Al-Khalid, T80UD, Type 85 and our older tanks. While GIDS was involved in the AK-1 project to build and integrate SAGEM MATIS sights, both of these were joint projects with the European companies that make these systems, THALES and SAGEM (now SAFRAN S.A).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upgradation of 105mm Tanks with Catherine FC Thermal Imaging System.
> 
> 
> THALES OPTRONICS .S.A & SHIBLI ELECTRONICS have been awarded a Major Contract for the Upgradation of 105mm Tanks with Catherine FC Thermal Imaging System. Thales Optronics.S.A will be the prime Contractor where as Shibli Electronics would be the Subcontractor in Pakistan. The Production and...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inhouse Integration/ manufacturing of thermal imagers, Optics, fire control systems for AFVs
> 
> 
> Shibli Electronics licensed Key Industrial Partner of Thales provides the best innovative Thermal Imaging systems integration solutions for various land platforms including Armored Vehicles and Mechanized Infantry. The highly skilled and THALES certified manpower including engineers and...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


What else does Shibli produce?


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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> What else does Shibli produce?


SHIBLI has their own entire range of thermal sights, both smaller weapon mounted ones and larger handheld and vehicle mounted ones, they are all in use by Pakistans armed forces. Namely the SKUA and TARSIER series of thermals. They also make border surveillance systems (I believe these may also be in use on the western border) as well as commercial thermal cameras, security systems, networking, wiring etc.
They were also involved in integration work for these foreign thermals into Pakistani tanks. As I mentioned in the original post, the Fire control system of Al-Khalid was designed by SHIBLI. You can check the second thread in my previous post to see more of their products.


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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> originally Pakistani Al-Khalids, T80UDs, Al-Zarrars and Type 85s were using POFs APFSDS-T, which is pretty much the same as BM-42. By this I mean in the 90s, while india got BM42 starting 2015 and were still buying it in 2019.
> We got the design from the Ukrainians. As far as I’m aware Pakistan has never used 125-II.
> 
> Pakistan instead went for Naiza-1 (125-IIM), which is basically the depleted uranium version of 125-II, it was inducted a few years after APFSDS-T and used along side it, With the former being the standard projectile and the latter being carried for harder targets, along with ATGMs.
> I believe this setup is still followed, as it’s more cost effective. Something like the Naiza is overkill for T72s and Arjuns, I wonder if they are trained specifically to identify different Indian tanks and change projectiles accordingly.
> 
> Naiza-2 is basically Chinese DTW-125/BTA-4 APFSDS, the next step from 125-IIM and a step below the Chinese 125-III (used only in their Type 99A models, other Chinese tanks also use BTA-4),
> I’m not sure just how many Pakistan has produced itself or if it still produces them, but I know for sure local production was considered as Naiza-2 was brought up a few times at POF before VT-4 was inducted.
> These are currently used as the standard ammunition in our VT-4s and may also be used alongside Other ammunition in Type 85UG, AK-1, T80UD, so I assume they are being produced locally now. POF definitely has the capability to make them. Either way, it’s confirmed that PA uses them.
> 
> And yes, BM17, I’m unsure if modernized Indian T72s can fire BM42, I assume they can, but 800 or so of their active T72 (and all the ones in reserve) are stock. They cannot fire anything better than a BM17 due to the limitations of their FCS.


Again thank you for this.

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## Dazzler

Many errors..


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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Many errors..


Feel free to point them out instead of just mentioning that. Was waiting for you to see it, I’ll learn something.
It’s based on what I can find, simplified so the common person can understand.

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## Thorough Pro

One is shown with radiator, the other without, remove the radiators from the left one the difference is not so huge



TsAr said:


> well the Ukrainian is half the size of perkin...

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## Dazzler

Shibli made/ improved FCC, not the entire FCS of AK
Naiza is in service with entire mbt lineup, naiza 2 status is classified

AK has 16bit FCs, AK 1 has multiprocess 32bit
2nd gen TI vs 3rd gen TI
AK production version never used FRENCH FCS. It's European+ indigenous tech.
Datalinks IBMS lws all indigenous.
MRS is outsourced
Aorak2 is not in service
Aorak is improved Fy2 made by NDC.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Shibli made/ improved FCC, not the entire FCS of AK
> Naiza is in service with entire mbt lineup, naiza 2 status is classified
> 
> AK has 16bit FCs, AK 1 has multiprocess 32bit
> 2nd gen TI vs 3rd gen TI
> AK production version never used FRENCH FCS. It's European+ indigenous tech.
> Datalinks IBMS lws all indigenous.
> MRS is outsourced
> Aorak2 is not in service
> Aorak is improved Fy2 made by NDC.


Never said SHIBLI made the entire system, original post specifically said that it was only improved locally. Did not differentiate between FCC and FCS to not confuse people.

Already mentioned Naiza is in service with entire fleet.

Naiza 2 is not classified if it’s BTA4, which there have been several indications of it being in the past. Unless those was just rumors/it’s been redesignated and Pakistan is working on its own new APFSDS. Which I doubt could be better than BTA4 anyways.

Already mentioned AK1 has improved FCS with newer Gen thermals. Never said FCS was French, AK did in fact have French assistance in FCS, the TI itself is French. But I presume you mean they did not help with adding other stuff like auto-tracking, in which case my bad. But you say “European” which can then only mean German or French.

Already mentioned that Data link, IBMS and LWS are indigenous.

Did not know MRS was outsourced, was going off comment made on this thread earlier mentioning it was made at HIT, it looks to be visually similar to the system on VT4. Mistake on my part

You yourself have mentioned multiple times that AORAK MK2 is being used on AK. I’ve seen two separate types of ERA in use on AK. I assumed the newer, sometimes dual stacked ones are MK2, unless they are AORAK and the original one was something else, because I am aware one more company had designed ERA in Pakistan. Most sources still call the new ERA AORAK MK2 but I’m aware most of them just regurgitate a single article. Interestingly no one ever mentions AORAK in any article, only MK2, though I’m certain this is incomplete info.
What company is NDC by the way? Janes claims AORAK was developed by GIDS, I have not heard of NDC.

What I deduce from this is that currently “AORAK” is the only Pakistani origin ERA in service and that it’s an improvement over FY2 (given that it can be stacked, it’s likely quite a bit better)


Thank you for taking the time to respond.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> For Naiza-1 it’s 220MM/66.5 degrees at 2 KM. For Naiza-2 it’s 220MM/68.5 Degrees at 2KM. Using simple LOS conversions these numbers are around 570-600MM/0 degrees and 630-650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM respectively. Naiza-1 is used on Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid. Naiza-2 can be used on Type 85UG, T80UD/T84, Al-Khalid-1 and VT-4.
> 
> For comparison the standard Indian Ammunition for its T90S tanks, the BM42, has a penetration of around 460MM/0 degrees at 2 KM. The standard ammo for Indian T72, the BM17 has about 300MM/0 Degrees at 2KM.
> The standard ammunition in Russian service (excluding the T-14), The Svinets APFSDS, has similar penetration numbers to Naiza-2, while their optional Svinets-1 (and newer designs for T-14) have higher numbers.
> 
> Keep in mind all of these numbers at 0 degrees are rough LOS calculations and in real life they are generally lower, these are kinda calculated under ideal standards, in real life there’s so many more factors, but these can give an estimate of performance.


Thanks really useful info, do PA have plan for any advance ammo then naiza 2 in near future


iLION12345_1 said:


> For Naiza-1 it’s 220MM/66.5 degrees at 2 KM. For Naiza-2 it’s 220MM/68.5 Degrees at 2KM. Using simple LOS conversions these numbers are around 570-600MM/0 degrees and 630-650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM respectively. Naiza-1 is used on Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid. Naiza-2 can be used on Type 85UG, T80UD/T84, Al-Khalid-1 and VT-4.
> 
> For comparison the standard Indian Ammunition for its T90S tanks, the BM42, has a penetration of around 460MM/0 degrees at 2 KM. The standard ammo for Indian T72, the BM17 has about 300MM/0 Degrees at 2KM.
> The standard ammunition in Russian service (excluding the T-14), The Svinets APFSDS, has similar penetration numbers to Naiza-2, while their optional Svinets-1 (and newer designs for T-14) have higher numbers.
> 
> Keep in mind all of these numbers at 0 degrees are rough LOS calculations and in real life they are generally lower, these are kinda calculated under ideal standards, in real life there’s so many more factors, but these can give an estimate of performance.


Thanks really useful info, do PA have plan for any advance ammo then naiza 2 in near future


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks really useful info, do PA have plan for any advance ammo then naiza 2 in near future
> 
> Thanks really useful info, do PA have plan for any advance ammo then naiza 2 in near future



There is still some confusion as to wether Naiza-2 is a Pakistani version of Chinese BTA-4 used in our VT-4s or if it’s a separate Pakistani APFSDS that’s still under design. In my opinion it’s a locally made BTA-4 that they will unveil sooner or later, maybe with AK-2. Even if we’re not locally making it, we have large numbers of it. 

For the time being that is the best projectile in South Asia, and that too by a considerable margin. Even our Naiza-1 is far ahead of what’s in use on the other side of the border, so there’s no need invest in even newer projectiles right now, the money is better used elsewhere. 

I’m sure as time goes on and when India considers new ammunition to close this gap, Pakistan will look for an upgrade too, which shouldn’t be an issue, since AK-1 and VT-4 can handle longer and better ammunition easily.

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## Dazzler

Pt-3 or 90II-3 made an appearance during the famous UD vs Storm3 trials

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## Dazzler

Digital autoloader control panel in action. Alkhalid-1.

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## Scorpiooo

Dazzler said:


> Digital autoloader control panel in action. Alkhalid-1.
> 
> 
> View attachment 754944


Is this similar to VT4 ?


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## Dazzler

Scorpiooo said:


> Is this similar to VT4 ?



Yes

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## ghazi52

Al-KHALID Main Battle Tank (MBT)

20th Anniversary July 2001-2021

“20 Years of Excellence“

Al Khalid Main Battle Tank (MBT) completes 20 years of service in the #PakistanArmy

The new improved version Al-Khalid-1 was also rolled out in July 2020

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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> Al-KHALID Main Battle Tank (MBT)
> 
> 20th Anniversary July 2001-2021
> 
> “20 Years of Excellence“
> 
> Al Khalid Main Battle Tank (MBT) completes 20 years of service in the #PakistanArmy
> 
> The new improved version Al-Khalid-1 was also rolled out in July 2020
> 
> 
> View attachment 758337


How many produced in 20 years ??


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## Sayfullah

Scorpiooo said:


> How many produced in 20 years ??



450+

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## Dazzler

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> 450+


Add 88 AK1 to this.

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## Sayfullah

Dazzler said:


> Add 88 AK1 to this.



How many AK1 is HIT producing yearly?


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## Scorpiooo

Dazzler said:


> Add 88 AK1 to this.





Jf-17 block 3 said:


> 450+


Not a bad numbers, can be better if production rate was higher

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## Dazzler

Scorpiooo said:


> Not a bad numbers, can be better if production rate was higher


220 AK1 planned but the number can reach 300 possibly. AK-2 once developed will be in addition to this.


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## Scorpiooo

Dazzler said:


> 220 AK1 planned but the number can reach 300 possibly. AK-2 once developed will be in addition to this.


Whats the time frame for these 220 AK1 (prior to AK2)


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> How many AK1 is HIT producing yearly?


Capacity is 50/Year but wasn’t reached due to funding constraints in the previous years, HIT should be hitting that next year if not already this year. Total numbers produced in excess of 600 by now including both AK and AK-1.

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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> How many produced in 20 years ??


As per available information, 
AK: 320
AK1: 88 (220 planned)
@HRK

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## hussain0216

Dazzler said:


> 220 AK1 planned but the number can reach 300 possibly. AK-2 once developed will be in addition to this.



Once AK2 is developed and in production will AK1 production end or will they be produced alongside each other?


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## Dazzler

hussain0216 said:


> Once AK2 is developed and in production will AK1 production end or will they be produced alongside each other?


AK2 will commence after the completion of required AK1s.

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## hussain0216

Dazzler said:


> AK2 will commence after the completion of required AK1s.



So AK1 production will only be 220 units and then finish?


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## syed_yusuf

Should Pakistan do any ToT on tank engine and transmission to local maintenance, parts production and even complete local overhaul and rebuild. For future may be add local production.
This is one area that needs utmost attention


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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> Should Pakistan do any ToT on tank engine and transmission to local maintenance, parts production and even complete local overhaul and rebuild. For future may be add local production.
> This is one area that needs utmost attention


Efforts already underway to do that with either Ukraine or China.

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## syed_yusuf

iLION12345_1 said:


> Efforts already underway to do that with either Ukraine or China.


That will be an awesome development as Pakistan does not have any level of engine manufacturing.


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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> That will be an awesome development as Pakistan does not have any level of engine manufacturing.


Yep, ToT would be really good. PA was highly impressed with the Chinese engine in VT-4 and wanted ToT for it, similarly the Ukrainian 1500HP engine is also pretty good, both are possibilities for Al-Khalid-2 and PA wants to make them locally.


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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yep, ToT would be really good. PA was highly impressed with the Chinese engine in VT-4 and wanted ToT for it, similarly the Ukrainian 1500HP engine is also pretty good, both are possibilities for Al-Khalid-2 and PA wants to make them locally.


Do you think china will give its engine ToT Pakistan ?


With Ukraine its possible if we pay them well ... but question how we are going to pay for ToT with empty pockets

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Do you think china will give its engine ToT Pakistan ?
> 
> 
> With Ukraine its possible if we pay them well ... but question how we are going to pay for ToT with empty pockets


Ukraine would give the engine if we wanted it, they need any money they can get, plus given their historical co-operation with Pakistan (and other procurements with them in regards to APCs, T80UD upgrades, AK-1 engines and maybe even T929 in the future) means they might be willing to give us a better deal.

With China, the ToT seems more unlikely, Pakistan tried to get it already and was denied, but no doubt the Chinese engine is really good, if it happens to be more logical I feel they might just buy engines from China for AK-2. Though I sincerely hope ToT is involved one way or another to give us that capability. Then again we all know how Pakistan-China relations are. Something could be worked out somewhere. The money will be there when needed, it can’t be more expensive to get ToT than to order hundreds of engines directly. If we can do one we can do the other.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Ukraine would give the engine if we wanted it, they need any money they can get, plus given their historical co-operation with Pakistan (and other procurements with them in regards to APCs, T80UD upgrades, AK-1 engines and maybe even T929 in the future) means they might be willing to give us a better deal.
> 
> With China, the ToT seems more unlikely, Pakistan tried to get it already and was denied, but no doubt the Chinese engine is really good, if it happens to be more logical I feel they might just buy engines from China for AK-2. Though I sincerely hope ToT is involved one way or another to give us that capability. Then again we all know how Pakistan-China relations are. Something could be worked out somewhere. The money will be there when needed, it can’t be more expensive to get ToT than to order hundreds of engines directly. If we can do one we can do the other.


Yes sir, thatway i asked as Chinese ToT in unlikely the case specifically in case of VT-4, 
For PA future i think if Ukrainian engine can satisfied AK2 need and available with full ToT, is best case for time.
Once Chinese developed better engine then then this Vt4 engine then they might consider TOT (which is very much away)


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes sir, thatway i asked as Chinese ToT in unlikely the case specifically in case of VT-4,
> For PA future i think if Ukrainian engine can satisfied AK2 need and available with full ToT, is best case for time.
> Once Chinese developed better engine then then this Vt4 engine then they might consider TOT (which is very much away)



I believe PA was really impressed with the Chinese engine due to its torque figures, it makes a lot of torque for its size. 

On paper Ukraine 5TD and 6TD series (Al-Zarrar, Al-Khalid, T80UD) seem like great engines because of the horsepower figures but in reality they are rather weak.
They are Very reliable, durable and easy to maintain, very compact as well, work great in our hot environments, probably slightly more reliable than the Chinese options. but they make poor torque.
In tank engines the torque figure and the RPMs at which the torque is available matters a lot more than horsepower.

For example the torque produced by AKs 1200 horsepower 6TD-2 engine is closer to the torque produced by Russian 1000 horsepower engines in T90A/S models, the torque produced by a similar Russian 1200HP engine is a lot more than the 6TD-2. Due to this reason T90A/S models have similar mobility to Al-Khalid despite having 200 less horsepower and similar weight. Similarly our T80UDs are not that mobile when compared to Russian T80U tanks, granted those had turbine engines with much higher fuel consumption and were better suited to Russia’s cold climates, but they gave the T80 the moniker of “the flying tank”, something that doesn’t Hold true with the UD. This doesn’t mean Al-Khalid or UD isn’t mobile, theyre very mobile, but not as much as they could be. On the other hand VT-4P is probably the most mobile tank in its class with its 1500HP engine. Thankfully these issues have been addressed to some extent in new 6TD-3 1500HP engine. (the Chinese engine still has better power output, but if HIT decides they want to maintain the compact nature of AK-2s engine, they can go for 6TD-3, and the Chinese engine has proven to be reliable enough in VT-4 to be an equally decent option. The choice will be down to cost, ease and ToT I presume.) it shouldn’t be hard to put the Chinese engine in AK-2 either, AK was originally designed to have a much larger engine, a Perkins or an MTU engine, but due to sanctions HIT was forced to go with The Ukrainian option. Maybe this was a blessing in disguise considering how reliable the 6TD series has proven to be. There is a large storage compartment between the crew and engine compartment in the AK, leftover space from the larger engines, currently used for ammo storage.

In short both options have their ups and downs and both are equally appealing, the choice will be down to what’s cheaper, easier, more readily available and hopefully down to which engine we can make locally. Both of them will be major upgrades regardless.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> I believe PA was really impressed with the Chinese engine due to its torque figures, it makes a lot of torque for its size.
> 
> On paper Ukraine 5TD and 6TD series (Al-Zarrar, Al-Khalid, T80UD) seem like great engines because of the horsepower figures but in reality they are rather weak.
> They are Very reliable, durable and easy to maintain, very compact as well, work great in our hot environments, probably slightly more reliable than the Chinese options. but they make poor torque.
> In tank engines the torque figure and the RPMs at which the torque is available matters a lot more than horsepower.
> 
> For example the torque produced by AKs 1200 horsepower 6TD-2 engine is closer to the torque produced by Russian 1000 horsepower engines in T90A/S models, the torque produced by a similar Russian 1200HP engine is a lot more than the 6TD-2. Due to this reason T90A/S models have similar mobility to Al-Khalid despite having 200 less horsepower and similar weight. Similarly our T80UDs are not that mobile when compared to Russian T80U tanks, granted those had turbine engines with much higher fuel consumption and were better suited to Russia’s cold climates, but they gave the T80 the moniker of “the flying tank”, something that doesn’t Hold true with the UD. This doesn’t mean Al-Khalid or UD isn’t mobile, theyre very mobile, but not as much as they could be. On the other hand VT-4P is probably the most mobile tank in its class with its 1500HP engine. Thankfully these issues have been addressed to some extent in new 6TD-3 1500HP engine. (the Chinese engine still has better power output, but if HIT decides they want to maintain the compact nature of AK-2s engine, they can go for 6TD-3, and the Chinese engine has proven to be reliable enough in VT-4 to be an equally decent option. The choice will be down to cost, ease and ToT I presume.) it shouldn’t be hard to put the Chinese engine in AK-2 either, AK was originally designed to have a much larger engine, a Perkins or an MTU engine, but due to sanctions HIT was forced to go with The Ukrainian option. Maybe this was a blessing in disguise considering how reliable the 6TD series has proven to be. There is a large storage compartment between the crew and engine compartment in the AK, leftover space from the larger engines, currently used for ammo storage.
> 
> In short both options have their ups and downs and both are equally appealing, the choice will be down to what’s cheaper, easier, more readily available and hopefully down to which engine we can make locally. Both of them will be major upgrades regardless.


Thanks for sharing in such a detail. In short PA can go for any of it in future by considering multiple factors you shared, but main factor will be cost as well

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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Not true.
> 
> 
> AZ production capped at 500 mbts.



but why capped, I dont understand ?


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## Dazzler

iLION12345_1 said:


> I believe PA was really impressed with the Chinese engine due to its torque figures, it makes a lot of torque for its size.
> 
> On paper Ukraine 5TD and 6TD series (Al-Zarrar, Al-Khalid, T80UD) seem like great engines because of the horsepower figures but in reality they are rather weak.
> They are Very reliable, durable and easy to maintain, very compact as well, work great in our hot environments, probably slightly more reliable than the Chinese options. but they make poor torque.
> In tank engines the torque figure and the RPMs at which the torque is available matters a lot more than horsepower.
> 
> For example the torque produced by AKs 1200 horsepower 6TD-2 engine is closer to the torque produced by Russian 1000 horsepower engines in T90A/S models, the torque produced by a similar Russian 1200HP engine is a lot more than the 6TD-2. Due to this reason T90A/S models have similar mobility to Al-Khalid despite having 200 less horsepower and similar weight. Similarly our T80UDs are not that mobile when compared to Russian T80U tanks, granted those had turbine engines with much higher fuel consumption and were better suited to Russia’s cold climates, but they gave the T80 the moniker of “the flying tank”, something that doesn’t Hold true with the UD. This doesn’t mean Al-Khalid or UD isn’t mobile, theyre very mobile, but not as much as they could be. On the other hand VT-4P is probably the most mobile tank in its class with its 1500HP engine. Thankfully these issues have been addressed to some extent in new 6TD-3 1500HP engine. (the Chinese engine still has better power output, but if HIT decides they want to maintain the compact nature of AK-2s engine, they can go for 6TD-3, and the Chinese engine has proven to be reliable enough in VT-4 to be an equally decent option. The choice will be down to cost, ease and ToT I presume.) it shouldn’t be hard to put the Chinese engine in AK-2 either, AK was originally designed to have a much larger engine, a Perkins or an MTU engine, but due to sanctions HIT was forced to go with The Ukrainian option. Maybe this was a blessing in disguise considering how reliable the 6TD series has proven to be. There is a large storage compartment between the crew and engine compartment in the AK, leftover space from the larger engines, currently used for ammo storage.
> 
> In short both options have their ups and downs and both are equally appealing, the choice will be down to what’s cheaper, easier, more readily available and hopefully down to which engine we can make locally. Both of them will be major upgrades regardless.



Can you please tell the world three reasons why PA likes TD series engines?


Inception-06 said:


> but why capped, I dont understand ?



Priorities, lack of funds.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Can you please tell the world three reasons why PA likes TD series engines?
> 
> 
> Priorities, lack of funds.


They’re in the post you quoted.

It’s not like they had any other options for the AK after the sanctions. Prior tank related deals with Ukraine and commonality with UD made the choice acceptable. It was Probably the cheapest one too. Otherwise it’s well know to be underpowered.
What are you trying to ask exactly?

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## Inception-06

Inception-06 said:


> @Dazzler
> 
> View attachment 622868




@*iLION12345_1*
Why this camouflage system wasn’t implemented on the AK-1 and VT-4 ?

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> @*iLION12345_1*
> Why this camouflage system wasn’t implemented on the AK-1 and VT-4 ?


Those pictures are from the testing phase of INTERMAT thermal coating on AK.
The coating isn’t the camouflage, the coating can be used with any sort of camo, it is in the paint. Tanks are present In different camos depending on their location, but the thermal coating is already in use on PA tanks.

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## iLION12345_1

Possibly one of the only known pictures of the turret armor pack for AK?
note that the composites are listed as indigenous.

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## iLION12345_1

iLION12345_1 said:


> For Naiza-1 it’s 220MM/66.5 degrees at 2 KM. For Naiza-2 it’s 220MM/68.5 Degrees at 2KM. Using simple LOS conversions these numbers are around 570-600MM/0 degrees and 630-650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM respectively. Naiza-1 is used on Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid. Naiza-2 can be used on Type 85UG, T80UD/T84, Al-Khalid-1 and VT-4.
> 
> For comparison the standard Indian Ammunition for its T90S tanks, the BM42, has a penetration of around 460MM/0 degrees at 2 KM. The standard ammo for Indian T72, the BM17 has about 300MM/0 Degrees at 2KM.
> The standard ammunition in Russian service (excluding the T-14), The Svinets APFSDS, has similar penetration numbers to Naiza-2, while their optional Svinets-1 (and newer designs for T-14) have higher numbers.
> 
> Keep in mind all of these numbers at 0 degrees are rough LOS calculations and in real life they are generally lower, these are kinda calculated under ideal standards, in real life there’s so many more factors, but these can give an estimate of performance.



Recently got the chance to talk to a few knowledgeable Chinese members on another platform, also did some digging myself, got some more clarification regarding APFSDS used by PA.

The first type is the APFSDS/T which has been produced locally by POF since the 90s, this is actually the Chinese 125-I APFSDS produced in Pakistan under license.





This is backed up by comparing all of its specifications to the ones mentioned for the 125-I in old Janes articles. Which makes sense considering the tanks Pakistan was using back then. Unfortunately it’s penetration is given in MM of RHA which is quite useless to gauge its performance against modern tanks, however since PA has since indicted Naiza this matters little, it is likely still comparable to the BM-42 used by Indian T90S and definitely superior to the BM-17 used by Indian T72.
The Janes articles I mentioned can Be found on this thread already:








Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool


Norinco Type-II M APFSDS RHA penetration @ the typical target under the fire range condition---RHA, 220mm thickness , angle of inclination: 60-70, and in this case, the angle is the 68 deg, no much difference with "international standard.. NOTE: this is a tungsten round, not a DU round



defence.pk












Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool


should be between 600-700mm @ 2 km estimated. Enough to knock out any adversary AZ means t-72 autoloader, AK and Type-99 both fire this round so their autoloader is modified. The round is known as Norinco Type-2 M 125 mm NORINCO APFSDS-T ammunition (China), Tank and anti-tank guns...



defence.pk





The second round is the Naiza DU APFSDS. I’ve mistakenly said before that it is based off Chinese 125-IIM or is related to it. According to my Chinese friends they never used DU ammunition (as in the 125-IIM is tungsten alloy). The Naiza is infact similar in dimensions to the APFSDS/T (which means it’s smaller than the 125-IIM, which explains how it’s usable on the original AK and AZ without changes to auto-loader) however has much improved performance due to the materials in use, the confusion regarding its relation to the Chinese 125-IIM by me and others before seem to have arisen from the similar penetration values of the two (570-600MM/0 degrees at 2KM range).
If anything this lends more credence to the NDC for developing Ammunition comparable to that of China and other countries at the time on its own. This ammo is still far superior than anything used across the eastern border.




(In the image too it is visible that it is rather similar size and shaped to the APFSDS/T)


The third ammunition is of course the BTA-4/DTW-125 APFSDS being inducted with the VT-4P which has penetration values 650+MM/0 degrees at 2KM ranges. This round has similar dimensions to the Chinese 125-IIM but improved performance.









There is also some confusion between what the difference between Chinese 125-II and 125-IIM APFSDS is. Apparently 125-II is not a thing, the DTW-125/BTA-4 has been mistakenly referred to as 125-II before, despite it being better than the 125-IIM and having its own designation.

So Chinese ammo lineage is something like 125-1>125-IIM>DTW-125>125-III
While Pakistani usage is APFSDS/T (125-1), Naiza DU and now BTA-4. I believe all three are still in use, with the former two being present on most tanks and the latter standard on only the VT-4 for now but is compatible with other tanks too (AK-1, UD, Type 85UG). We may see it being used on them too in the future.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

AK II is sounding more like a pipe dream.


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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AK II is sounding more like a pipe dream.


in a recent interview the HIT chairman confirmed that a new version of AK will be in production soon (I assume after AK-1 deliveries are complete) and that it may be using technologies from the VT-4. I don’t think this will be the major redesign we were hoping for, not new Gen AK, but an incremental improvement to bring it closer to VT-4P, it shows RnD in the project is continuing to some extent.

I believe the project will continue alongside the VT-4 procurements, PA needs a local tank project too given that after the Type 59 and 69, the Al-zarrars will someday need to be replaced too, and PA doesn’t have ToT for VT-4. It makes sense to keep it going.








The HIT: More than just tanks


https://www.globalvillagespace.com/the-hit-more-than-just-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR2zgidzzaA2Fzi7XkjPSY3H9_rpzmcWGora0AU8iH6C9sE-TB3Sq55-5PM The HIT: More than just tanks Journey of a Thousand Miles begins with one single step! Following the advice of philosopher Lao Tzu, Pakistan and China initiated...



defence.pk





If the PA does ever want to make an entirely next Generation tank, then it needs to ditch the MBT-2000 platform, it has reached its limits with the VT-4.
The new platform needs better turret geometry for better ERA coverage and a better frontal arc for composites (maybe as in Russian tanks), this is doable on the current AK platform. However the hull design needs changes too, mainly the size of the lower front plate, which is rather large in all tanks of the platform, including VT4 (for comparison, the type 99 uses a newer hull design, it has a smaller lower front plate than both AK and VT4- despite being a larger tank). It also needs better side protection (again, can be added to AK and VT4), but at that point it may be smarter to start from a new design, which is what I hope they do to replace the Al-Zarrar fleet in the distant future.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> in a recent interview the HIT chairman confirmed that a new version of AK will be in production soon (I assume after AK-1 deliveries are complete) and that it may be using technologies from the VT-4.
> I believe the project will continue alongside the VT-4 procurements, PA needs a local tank project too given that after the Type 59 and 69, the Al-zarrars will someday need to be replaced too, and PA doesn’t have ToT for VT-4. It makes sense to keep it going.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The HIT: More than just tanks
> 
> 
> https://www.globalvillagespace.com/the-hit-more-than-just-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR2zgidzzaA2Fzi7XkjPSY3H9_rpzmcWGora0AU8iH6C9sE-TB3Sq55-5PM The HIT: More than just tanks Journey of a Thousand Miles begins with one single step! Following the advice of philosopher Lao Tzu, Pakistan and China initiated...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


You mean something advance then AK1 like Ak1a

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> You mean something advance then AK1 like Ak1a


Exactly, those are the vibes I’m getting from it, they may called it AK-2 or something else, but we don’t know just how big the upgrade is going to be. It could just be the same design with added tech from the VT-4 among other upgrades like CITV, better ERA and engine etc, or it could also include certain elements being redesigned, like the turret. They have certainly been at it for a while, and have a couple of years more until the AK-1 deliveries are complete.
I’ve covered what they can and should do in another post.








Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions


They are used independently hence create flexibility and add complications for the enemy. Armour component is same. Any special role armoured used in them or general utility purpose



defence.pk




(#2884)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> in a recent interview the HIT chairman confirmed that a new version of AK will be in production soon (I assume after AK-1 deliveries are complete) and that it may be using technologies from the VT-4. I don’t think this will be the major redesign we were hoping for, not new Gen AK, but an incremental improvement to bring it closer to VT-4P, it shows RnD in the project is continuing to some extent.
> 
> I believe the project will continue alongside the VT-4 procurements, PA needs a local tank project too given that after the Type 59 and 69, the Al-zarrars will someday need to be replaced too, and PA doesn’t have ToT for VT-4. It makes sense to keep it going.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The HIT: More than just tanks
> 
> 
> https://www.globalvillagespace.com/the-hit-more-than-just-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR2zgidzzaA2Fzi7XkjPSY3H9_rpzmcWGora0AU8iH6C9sE-TB3Sq55-5PM The HIT: More than just tanks Journey of a Thousand Miles begins with one single step! Following the advice of philosopher Lao Tzu, Pakistan and China initiated...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the PA does ever want to make an entirely next Generation tank, then it needs to ditch the MBT-2000 platform, it has reached its limits with the VT-4.
> The new platform needs better turret geometry for better ERA coverage and a better frontal arc for composites (maybe as in Russian tanks), this is doable on the current AK platform. However the hull design needs changes too, mainly the size of the lower front plate, which is rather large in all tanks of the platform, including VT4 (for comparison, the type 99 uses a newer hull design, it has a smaller lower front plate than both AK and VT4- despite being a larger tank). It also needs better side protection (again, can be added to AK and VT4), but at that point it may be smarter to start from a new design, which is what I hope they do to replace the Al-Zarrar fleet in the distant future.


I think AK2 could be the 'next AZ' -- i.e., a low-cost force builder. Ideally, the PA would want to apply the VT4's engine and electronics, but add to the armour/protection without cutting into mobility.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think AK2 could be the 'next AZ' -- i.e., a low-cost force builder. Ideally, the PA would want to apply the VT4's engine and electronics, but add to the armour/protection without cutting into mobility.


That is certainly another approach they can use. AK-2 can be the longer term replacement for AZ and other types, since the amount of VT-4s PA is getting is enough to replace Type 59/69.

if they don’t do a redesign, only add some tech from the VT4 on top of AK-1 and keep it a relatively lower-cost upgrade, it will still be superior to basically everything in the PA fleet except the VT-4. (I doubt they will replace FCS, GCS and thermals, AK-1 already has pretty good local ones, and if they add a CITV it will likely use a Catherine or Matis TI from shibli as is used for the gunner)

Considering they’ve shown interest in replacing it’s engine with the VT4s engine, understandably so, that will be a _*massive*_ increase in mobility. To put it into perspective. The 6TD-2E engine makes around 2800 NM of peak torque, the HB150 engine in the Pakistani VT4 and Chinese ZTZ-99A apparently makes closer to 5500 NM of peak torque (The Perkins condor engine, one of the engines that was also being originally considered for the AK made around 4000NM of peak torque). The 6TD engines are notoriously underpowered, and I suspect that has led to at least some constraints in the amount of stuff that can be put on AK especially, in terms of ERA/protection.
Maybe they have also considered the option to put the HB150-1200 engine (1200HP but would have a torque increase over 6TD-2E) in the AK-2, the one that is present in the normal VT-4s, it would still be a large power boost while keeping down fuel consumption and cost. The AK is a few tons lighter than VT4 after all.

They need to do something with all that added power, even if they don’t redesign the tank, it is likely they might put FY-4 ERA on the hull and turret (which without a turret redesign would not be a lot of ERA, but it’ll be better than the current one). They have also shown interest in polish ERAWA in 2017, and Ukrainian Nozh/Duplet during the oplot trials as well as during COAS’ recent visit. I still feel like it should at least get a turret redesign
Other than that the technologies from the VT-4 that can be adopted are the Auto-boresight, newer Data-link and more stuff on the electronics and software side, especially in regards to the BMS and C4I.


If PA ever does want to make a local next gen tank, which is really not needed anymore after VT-4P, it would be best to start from a new design.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> That is certainly another approach they can use. AK-2 can be the longer term replacement for AZ and other types, since the amount of VT-4s PA is getting is enough to replace Type 59/69.
> 
> if they don’t do a redesign, only add some tech from the VT4 on top of AK-1 and keep it a relatively lower-cost upgrade, it will still be superior to basically everything in the PA fleet except the VT-4. (I doubt they will replace FCS, GCS and thermals, AK-1 already has pretty good local ones, and if they add a CITV it will likely use a Catherine or Matis TI from shibli as is used for the gunner)
> 
> Considering they’ve shown interest in replacing it’s engine with the VT4s engine, understandably so, that will be a _*massive*_ increase in mobility. To put it into perspective. The 6TD-2E engine makes around 2800 NM of peak torque, the HB150 engine in the Pakistani VT4 and Chinese ZTZ-99A makes closer to 5500 NM of peak torque. The 6TD engines are notoriously underpowered, and I suspect that has led to at least some constraints in the amount of stuff that can be put on AK especially, in terms of ERA/protection.
> Maybe they have also considered the option to put the HB150-1200 engine (1200HP but would have a torque increase over 6TD-2E) in the AK-2, the one that is present in the normal VT-4s, it would still be a large power boost while keeping down fuel consumption and cost. The AK is a few tons lighter than VT4 after all.
> 
> They need to do something with all that added power, even if they don’t redesign the tank, it is likely they might put FY-4 ERA on the hull and turret (which without a turret redesign would not be a lot of ERA, but it’ll be better than the current one). They have also shown interest in polish ERAWA in 2017, and Ukrainian Nozh/Duplet during the oplot trials as well as during COAS’ recent visit. I still feel like it should at least get a turret redesign
> Other than that the technologies from the VT-4 that can be adopted are the Auto-boresight, newer Data-link and more stuff on the electronics and software side, especially in regards to the BMS and C4I.
> 
> 
> If PA ever does want to make a local next gen tank, which is really not needed anymore after VT-4P, it would be best to start from a new design.


Yeah, this could be interesting. Even with the VT4P in the picture, they should still be interested in finding a way to replace the 'newer older types' down the line. I agree; if the PA is seeking new high-torque engines for the AK2, there's a chance they want to improve the platform from a mobility and protection standpoint.

The alternative is going clean sheet by wrapping up AK with AK-I. 

I wonder if there's an option to bring VT4 manufacturing to Pakistan through a Norinco Group subsidiary. Basically, let Norinco Group buy up a part of HIT in return for locally producing VT4Ps. 

The only other alternative is, as you said, design a new tank from the ground-up. It'll be weird asking China if they're not going to budge on the VT4. I guess another approach is collaborating with Turkey to design a lighter version of the Altay (52-55 tons)? Or contracting the Poles?

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yeah, this could be interesting. Even with the VT4P in the picture, they should still be interested in finding a way to replace the 'newer older types' down the line. I agree; if the PA is seeking new high-torque engines for the AK2, there's a chance they want to improve the platform from a mobility and protection standpoint.
> 
> The alternative is going clean sheet by wrapping up AK with AK-I.
> 
> I wonder if there's an option to bring VT4 manufacturing to Pakistan through a Norinco Group subsidiary. Basically, let Norinco Group buy up a part of HIT in return for locally producing VT4Ps.
> 
> The only other alternative is, as you said, design a new tank from the ground-up. It'll be weird asking China if they're not going to budge on the VT4. I guess another approach is collaborating with Turkey to design a lighter version of the Altay (52-55 tons)? Or contracting the Poles?



I don’t see another tank design being needed soon after the VT-4 purchase, so the The way I see the current AK project playing out is The aformentioned “moderate” upgrade that includes engine and tech from the VT-4 along with some emphasis on protection (or at most a turret redesign if we’re pushing it) since the chairman of HIT did mention that a new version of the AK would be produced with VT-4s tech. This would bring the platform closer to the VT-4 but for a much lower cost and hence could be the high volume platform PA needs for the future to not have to buy too many VT-4s for replacing older types. 

Now depending on how many the plan on making of this new AK, it may just be to raise a few more regiments like the AK-1s are doing or they could be kept in production longer to replace the Al-Zarrar and hence cut into how many VT-4s the PA would need. 
it also depends on how good the army thinks the AZs still are. India has put out an RFI to replace its T72s, but those replacements won’t be arriving until late 2020s, so the AZs will still be at least relevant till then. 

What happens to the AK project _after _that is Surely up for debate. If the PA does not need a better local option than the VT-4P (and they likely don’t), then they will keep buying VT-4 and making the current and next AK until the requirement is fulfilled. Wether that is just to replace Type 59s and 69s or to also use it both replace the AZ remains to be seen, because we don’t know just how big of a fleet PA wants (I assume larger than the 2800 they have now since they keep making new regiments).

I think it is likely that this above mentioned iteration will be the end of the Al-Khalid project, unless there is a massive redesign and it starts taking over the roles of tanks like the T80UD someday (which is basically the same as making a new tank). By the time that comes maybe there will be other approaches PA can take for tank design, collaboration with Turkey, Ukraine, Poland, China or even Russia may be a possibility. If things improve enough maybe even a local design utilizing some foreign tech. All that is too far into the future to speculate.

So basically For the near future I just expect VT-4P and AK-1 (+ the upcoming AK version) deliveries to keep coming side by side and What each of these will do/replace and How many of which PA gets will depend on whatever PA has envisioned and the availability of funds.

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## Dazzler



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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 769698


Is there a shield/cover over the gunner's sight?

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## Dazzler

RAMPAGE said:


> Is there a shield/cover over the gunner's sight?


Yes. Controllable.

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## HRK

AK-I chassis # 106 under construction

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## TurDef

Same engine for Fırtına Howitzer?
We spoke to a Ukrainian company for the Altay Main Battle Tank engine. They said they are talking with Turkey for two engines. The one that Al-Khalid has 6TD-2 for Fırtına and apparently a new one 6TD-4 for Altay. What is Pakistan's approach for the engine I wonder? Are you happy with the engine or is it a problematic one? For those who want to read the news... https://www.turdef.com/Article/return-of-6td-engines-for-altay-and-firtina/644

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## iLION12345_1

TurDef said:


> Same engine for Fırtına Howitzer?
> We spoke to a Ukrainian company for the Altay Main Battle Tank engine. They said they are talking with Turkey for two engines. The one that Al-Khalid has 6TD-2 for Fırtına and apparently a new one 6TD-4 for Altay. What is Pakistan's approach for the engine I wonder? Are you happy with the engine or is it a problematic one? For those who want to read the news... https://www.turdef.com/Article/return-of-6td-engines-for-altay-and-firtina/644


6TD-2 is an okay engine, PA didn’t originally plan to put it in Al-Khalids, it kind of had to due to sanctions.

It’s reliability is good if it’s maintained well, its also good in hot and dusty climates. PA has not had many reliability issues with it, however other nations with similar styled engines (older TD models or just generally two stroke engines in tanks) have had many reliability problems with their engines, but that may be due to poorer maintenance standards, PA is known to be rather strict with them so despite its high usage and harsh climates They have been reliable.
However in a howitzer Where it will be under less load it should do even better.

Its other upsides is it’s very compact size, which is actually even better suited in a Howitzer than a tank, As the Howitzers Are smaller.
Al-Khalid has a lot of space left over due to the small engine, which is used as external Ammo-storage. It’s good with fuel economy As well (Important for range).

It’s downsides are that it makes poor torque for its equivalent horsepower figure. 2700-2800NM at most. Russian 1000HP engines used in their earlier T90s had equal or greater actual torque output than it even though on paper they have less horsepower. Similarly western and Chinese 1200 HP engines have produced torque figures even closer to 4000NM.

While this is somewhat of an issue in tanks; The al-Khalid has good mobility as it’s light, however compared to a tank such as a VT-4, which is only a few tons heavier but _*much*_ more mobile, it can be seen as a downside, that’s why PA is planning to replace this engine with either the same series as in VT-4 or the Ukrainian 6TD-3. (6TD-4 I have not looked much into, but 6TD-3 is a decent engine, quite an upgrade over 6TD-2, so I’m assuming 6TD-4 is just a bigger version of that, it should be a good fit for the Atlay, it is a very big tank but 6TD-4 is meant to be a very big engine. 
I would still say Chinese, Russian and western equivalent engines have surpassed the Ukrainian ones due to a lack of money and innovation in Ukraine’s industry, but they’re definitely still good, especially because they’d likely be cheaper too)

For a howitzer However 6TD-2E would be a perfect engine due to the lighter weight Of the vehicle, the small size would be an upside and the torque will be more than enough.

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## TurDef

Thank you... I learned a lot from your experience.

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## iLION12345_1

I didn’t see a comprehensive list of the upgrades Al-Khalid-1 has over the base Al-Khalid, so I decided to make one.


*Firstly*; AK had a rather long production run from 2001-2014, it saw some changes itself during that time. 
Early model AKs had 2nd Generation Catherine FC thermals for gunner. Later models have 3rd Gen SAGEM MATIS thermals. Later model AKs also had INTERMAT Thermal coatings as well as new radios and comms equipment (but they have been adding the last two to older AKs as well). 


*AK to AK-1 specifically was a rather large jump, while externally the tank looks the same, it has plenty of upgrades:

1*. An entirely new FCS (AK had a 16 Bit FCS, a Pakistani upgrade of the Chinese ISFCS-212 which they used in Type 85 and Type 96. Pakistan called it ISFCS-212B, it added features like auto-tracking and the commanders Panoramic sight to it to allow Hunter-Killer modes)

AK-1 has a new 32-bit FCS built around an STM processor. It has a Multi-process ballistic computer and is more digitized. Making it more accurate and much faster than the original. 

*Type 90-II has a 71 per cent hit probability on a moving target while the vehicle itself is moving. Target engagement time, stationary to stationary target is quoted as seven seconds, while on the move 10 seconds.*

The new one cuts both these engagement times to nearly half.

*2.* 3rd Generation SAGEM MATIS thermals and INTERMAT coatings that were already present in later model AKs were retained. 

*3*. The Roof armor was increased in AK-1. There are some reports of new composite modules on turret for AK-1 but these aren’t confirmed, externally they look the same. 

*4*. A new auto-loader, it’s the same style as the AKs (T72/T90 style carousel) but it is solid state (no relays, much more reliable), reprogrammable, has its own digital Control panel and digital info panel (gives number of each type of ammo in carousel along with empty trays and error codes), it is also faster and can accommodate bigger ammo (hence the AK-1 can fire BTA-4 but the basic AK cannot). It is unclear Wether there is any sort of protection increase to the auto-loader though. 

*5*. New engine. 6TD-2E instead of 6TD-2, Comes with a torque converter now. 
Same power output, but increased reliability, fuel Efficiency (increased range), ease of maintenance and longevity.

*6*. Upgraded Muzzle reference system, similar to the one in VT-4.

*7*. New sights for commander, the details of these are unknown at the moment, but it is still a dual magnification Panoramic sight with IIT, Probably with 3rd Gen Night vision over the second Gen in the basic AK.

*8*. New digital MFD panels for all 3 crew members that also provide a lot of useful info. Previously AK only had one for commander that doubled as an IBMS. Now each crew member has their separate one, while commander has 2 (MFD and IBMS). Obviously the FCS and display upgrades means there’s been upgrades to the software. There are also several smaller displays added to the tank, for example for the Auto-loader (as mentioned above), for the Explosion and fire suppression systems, for the FCS etc. 

*9*. New Explosion and fire suppression system. AK already had one present, with a fire and explosion suppression module for each crew member, the engine compartment, the Auto-loader and then 3 more for each ammo storage Bin. The new one has a faster response time to a fire or possible explosion. 

*10*. Improved radiation detectors and Upgraded NBC system. 

*11*. Improved Environmental Control System (ECS). Means better heat management, better AC. Potentially Less heat signature combined with the Thermal-coatings. 

*12*. Improved stabilization, I don’t think it got entirely new stabilizers as AK already used 3rd generation stabilization systems, Likely other smaller improvements, as well as added Head-mirror stabilization.

*13*. Improved C4I and communication equipment as well as Data link, especially in Command tanks (related to the improved IBMS). Obviously with it being a new tank there are other, smaller electrical and reliability upgrades too to rectify any issues that haven’t been fixed over the production run of the AK. This means AK-1 will generally be a more reliable machine. 

*14*. Not necessarily an upgrade, but a change worth pointing out, original AK used the older style of mounting ERA, where there would be no attaching points directly on the hull. Instead ERA wouldn’t be mounted on to a large steel plate which would then be directly bolted on to the hull of the tank. This is also used in Chinese tanks like type 85 and 96. However in AK-1 the ERA mounting points are directly on the hull and turret as with newer tanks.

So while externally it may not seem so, the AK-1 is a massive upgrade that puts its considerably ahead of basically any tank in the region apart from the VT-4P. 
If I missed anything or made a mistake, please do tell, thank you.


*Upgrades we can expect to see in the Al-Khalid-2:*
1. A Remote weapons system (RWS).
2. A commanders independent thermal Viewer (CITV).
3. Possibly a new 1500HP engine and a new transmission (Ideally 150HB engine as in VT-4P, however that would require modifications to the hull, it’s smaller 1300HP brother would be a good upgrade too, similarly Ukrainian 6TD-3 remains an option, however i hope they do not go for that…).
4. If a new engine is present, then new ERA. Likely Chinese ERA. 
5. Unlikely, but a new turret design may still be on the cards.
6. Auto-bore sight system, a better Data-link and 360 degree cameras for increased awareness.

There maybe more (or less, depends on how much money PA wants to spend to get AK close to VT-4), but we will only know for sure once they start entering service a few years down the line.

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## Dreamer.

iLION12345_1 said:


> I didn’t see a comprehensive list of the upgrades Al-Khalid-1 has over the base Al-Khalid, so I decided to make one.
> 
> 
> *Firstly*; AK had a rather long production run from 2001-2014, it saw some changes itself during that time.
> Early model AKs had 2nd Generation Catherine FC thermals for gunner. Later models have 3rd Gen SAGEM MATIS thermals. Later model AKs also had INTERMAT Thermal coatings as well as new radios and comms equipment (but they have been adding the last two to older AKs as well).
> 
> 
> *AK to AK-1 specifically was a rather large jump, while externally the tank looks the same, it has plenty of upgrades:
> 
> 1*. An entirely new FCS (AK had a 16 Bit FCS, a Pakistani upgrade of the Chinese ISFCS-212 which they used in Type 85 and Type 96. Pakistan called it ISFCS-212B, it added features like auto-tracking and the commanders Panoramic sight to it to allow Hunter-Killer modes)
> 
> AK-1 has a new 32-bit FCS built around an STM processor. It has a Multi-process ballistic computer and is more digitized. Making it more accurate and much faster than the original.
> 
> *Type 90-II has a 71 per cent hit probability on a moving target while the vehicle itself is moving. Target engagement time, stationary to stationary target is quoted as seven seconds, while on the move 10 seconds.*
> 
> The new one cuts both these engagement times to nearly half.
> 
> *2.* 3rd Generation SAGEM MATIS thermals and INTERMAT coatings that were already present in later model AKs were retained.
> 
> *3*. The Roof armor was increased in AK-1. There are some reports of new composite modules on turret for AK-1 but these aren’t confirmed, externally they look the same.
> 
> *4*. A new auto-loader, it’s the same style as the AKs (T72/T90 style carousel) but it is solid state (no relays, much more reliable), reprogrammable, has its own digital Control panel and digital info panel (gives number of each type of ammo in carousel along with empty trays and error codes), it is also faster and can accommodate bigger ammo (hence the AK-1 can fire BTA-4 but the basic AK cannot). It is unclear Wether there is any sort of protection increase to the auto-loader though.
> 
> *5*. New engine. 6TD-2E instead of 6TD-2, Comes with a torque converter now.
> Same power output, but increased reliability, fuel Efficiency (increased range), ease of maintenance and longevity.
> 
> *6*. Upgraded Muzzle reference system, similar to the one in VT-4.
> 
> *7*. New sights for commander, the details of these are unknown at the moment, but it is still a dual magnification Panoramic sight with IIT, Probably with 3rd Gen Night vision over the second Gen in the basic AK.
> 
> *8*. New digital MFD panels for all 3 crew members that also provide a lot of useful info. Previously AK only had one for commander that doubled as an IBMS. Now each crew member has their separate one, while commander has 2 (MFD and IBMS). Obviously the FCS and display upgrades means there’s been upgrades to the software. There are also several smaller displays added to the tank, for example for the Auto-loader (as mentioned above), for the Explosion and fire suppression systems, for the FCS etc.
> 
> *9*. New Explosion and fire suppression system. AK already had one present, with a fire and explosion suppression module for each crew member, the engine compartment, the Auto-loader and then 3 more for each ammo storage Bin. The new one has a faster response time to a fire or possible explosion.
> 
> *10*. Improved radiation detectors and Upgraded NBC system.
> 
> *11*. Improved Environmental Control System (ECS). Means better heat management, better AC. Potentially Less heat signature combined with the Thermal-coatings.
> 
> *12*. Improved stabilization, I don’t think it got entirely new stabilizers as AK already used 3rd generation stabilization systems, Likely other smaller improvements, as well as added Head-mirror stabilization.
> 
> *13*. Improved C4I and communication equipment as well as Data link, especially in Command tanks (related to the improved IBMS). Obviously with it being a new tank there are other, smaller electrical and reliability upgrades too to rectify any issues that haven’t been fixed over the production run of the AK. This means AK-1 will generally be a more reliable machine.
> 
> *14*. Not necessarily an upgrade, but a change worth pointing out, original AK used the older style of mounting ERA, where there would be no attaching points directly on the hull. Instead ERA wouldn’t be mounted on to a large steel plate which would then be directly bolted on to the hull of the tank. This is also used in Chinese tanks like type 85 and 96. However in AK-1 the ERA mounting points are directly on the hull and turret as with newer tanks.
> 
> So while externally it may not seem so, the AK-1 is a massive upgrade that puts its considerably ahead of basically any tank in the region apart from the VT-4P.
> If I missed anything or made a mistake, please do tell, thank you.
> 
> 
> *Upgrades we can expect to see in the Al-Khalid-2:*
> 1. A Remote weapons system (RWS).
> 2. A commanders independent thermal Viewer (CITV).
> 3. Possibly a new 1500HP engine and a new transmission (Ideally 150HB engine as in VT-4P, however that would require modifications to the hull, it’s smaller 1300HP brother would be a good upgrade too, similarly Ukrainian 6TD-3 remains an option, however i hope they do not go for that…).
> 4. If a new engine is present, then new ERA. Likely Chinese ERA.
> 5. Unlikely, but a new turret design may still be on the cards.
> 6. Auto-bore sight system, a better Data-link and 360 degree cameras for increased awareness.
> 
> There maybe more (or less, depends on how much money PA wants to spend to get AK close to VT-4), but we will only know for sure once they start entering service a few years down the line.


That better frontal arc design thing.....Why can't PA do that for Alkhalid-2? How hard can it really be? (one may ask the same for Alkhalid-1)


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## iLION12345_1

Dreamer. said:


> That better frontal arc design thing.....Why can't PA do that for Alkhalid-2? How hard can it really be? (one may ask the same for Alkhalid-1)


To increase it would mean an entirely new turret and hull design. That’s not a cheap thing to do, redesigning the entire tank and then everything around it. It’s not that HIT cannot do it, it’s that they’ve considered it unnecessary so far given the threats. That plus the fact that there was barely enough money to produce Tanks after 2013 let alone redesign them also adds to the issue.

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## iLION12345_1

So it turns out, contrary to what I and others believed earlier. The Type 85, the Al-Khalid and the T80UD can fire the BTA-4 APFSDS without any modifications. This means All 125MM types in the PA apart from the Al-Zarrar are cleared for using the BTA-4 APFSDS (currently it’s only used in the VT-4 however).
This means that it could very likely be the future mainstay APFSDS of PA, especially if the start local production. However as it stands the Naiza DU is already far superior to any Ammo in Indian service, so there’s no rush here.

I also wonder if anything ever became of the APFSDS/TI ammo that was presented years ago. It was basically the APFSDS-T/125-1 penetrator but given a new BM42 style casing resulting in increased muzzle velocity and penetration. It would somewhat modernize the APFSDS/T ammo PA had as standard back then (The basic APFSDS/T is still in use on PA tanks except VT-4 alongside Naiza), but I don’t know if it was ever adopted.







Depending on its adoption, PA uses 3 or 4 125MM APFSDS rounds
1. Basic APFSDS/T (Locally produced Chinese 125-I ammo)
*2. Improved APFSDS/T (125-1 penetrator with BM-42 style casing)?*
3. Naiza DU (Same dimensions and shape as 125-1 but with a DU penetrator).
4. BTA-4

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479502842851258368

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## khail007

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479502842851258368



Sir, these long (snorkeling-type) tubes at the top of the tank are only for testing purposes, or will stay?


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## The Eagle

khail007 said:


> Sir, these long (snorkeling-type) tubes at the top of the tank are only for testing purposes, or will stay?



Can be installed in minutes when needed due to terrain. It's not permanent installation but as and when needed, easy done. Like a capability per requirement.

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## blain2

Agreed, same set-up as the T-80UD/84 setup which also have deep fording capability.


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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479502842851258368


@The Eagle its better if you just post the video of AK-1 deep fording not this tweet by Brigadier as he is wrong about the "first time in AK history"

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## Clutch




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## Inception-06

Clutch said:


>


 What’s the point of posting this video again and again, did you even read and see the previous posts ? This Video was already posted 3 times.


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## Clutch

Inception-06 said:


> What’s the point of posting this video again and again, did you even read and see the previous posts ? This Video was already posted 3 times.



No I didn't.

Now it's here for the 4th time. ...

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## The SC

> Alhamdulilah upgraded version of Al Khalid-1 (AK-1) tank. In the history of Al Khalid, first time deep fording was attempted succesfully. Its a milestone achievement. Ist batch has been handed over to Army.
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD pic.twitter.com/C6LoUcJrdI
> — Brig Ashfaq Hassan (R), Sitara-E-Imtiaz (Mil). (@BrigAshfaqHasan) January 7, 2022


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## DeusExAstra

Hello! Some time ago drew attention to the ERA protection of AK-1 tank, so I have some questions with the identification of the type of ERA protection on the AK-1, could anyone to clarify these nuances?:

1) This ERA protection looks a bit close to FY-1 and FY-2, so Is it possible to consider it for, for example, FY-2 in it's origin?

2) As far as I understand, it has some influence on the APFSDS, is it possible to evaluate the protection it provides? Approximately КОНТАКТ-5 ERA, about 10-15% reducing penetration level?

3) Is there any information about it's internal schema? As far as I understand, a metal throwing plate is used, but what it's thickness, compared to КОНТАКТ-5 ERA, for example? Since I suggested some common with FY-1 or FY-2 ERA, thickness of the block is within 28-35mm, I suppose?


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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Hello! Some time ago drew attention to the ERA protection of AK-1 tank, so I have some questions with the identification of the type of ERA protection on the AK-1, could anyone to clarify these nuances?:
> 
> 1) This ERA protection looks a bit close to FY-1 and FY-2, so Is it possible to consider it for, for example, FY-2 in it's origin?
> 
> 2) As far as I understand, it has some influence on the APFSDS, is it possible to evaluate the protection it provides? Approximately КОНТАКТ-5 ERA, about 10-15% reducing penetration level?
> 
> 3) Is there any information about it's internal schema? As far as I understand, a metal throwing plate is used, but what it's thickness, compared to КОНТАКТ-5 ERA, for example? Since I suggested some common with FY-1 or FY-2 ERA, thickness of the block is within 28-35mm, I suppose?


The ERA is Pakistani AORAK. It is a locally improved version of FY-2 made by Dr. AQ Khan research labs and NDC. Yes, It apparently reduces the penetration of KE rounds. but I’ve never seen any official source to back that up, I’ve only seen official sources talk about it effecting the performance of CE rounds and not KE. However there may have been upgrades/changes in it during its service to change that, it wouldn’t be entirely unbelievable because if it was too much worst than K-5, then PA wouldn’t have opted for it, they did have access to K-5 while making AK. However weight constraints may also have been a factor. 

Most of the information on it is lost to time unfortunately, it’s likely better in performance to FY-2, but by how much, I don’t know, either way, it’s in need of an upgrade, and the ERA coverage is more of an issue than the ERA itself.

it’s set up a few different ways, either single or double stacked on both turret and hull (usually only single bricks are seen on service tanks, I’ve only ever seen double on early tanks or display models, I assume weight plays a part here as the engine is not too strong, either way, we know it can be double or single stacked as needed for improved performance).

There aren’t really any protection numbers for it available, but dimensions are as follows;

_The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories, well known for the design, development and production of missile and rocket systems, have developed the AORAK Mk 1 explosive reactive armour (ERA) system to improve the combat survivability of tanks and armoured fighting vehicles against attack from Chemical Energy (CE) projectiles. 
So far, the Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories have developed three different sizes of ERA modules to meet different user requirements. 
They are known as Type A, B and C and differ only in their size. Each module consists of two thin steel plates between which the explosive is inserted. This in turn is inserted in a box which is then bolted on to the hull or turret of the vehicle. 
Efforts have also been made to reduce the risk of accidental detonation of the ERA modules by small arms fire, shell fragments and lightning strikes as well as reducing the sympathetic detonation of surrounding ERA modules. 
This armour system is claimed to have a shelf-life of 10 years and an operational temperature range of -40 to +52 º C. 


Specifications 

Type A 
Type B 
Type C 

Size 
305 × 305 mm 
229 × 229 mm 
152 × 152 mm 

Weight 
16 kg 
9 kg 
8 kg 

Weight of explosive sheet 
1.2 kg 
0.75 kg 
0.35 kg _

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> The ERA is Pakistani AORAK. It is a locally improved version of FY-2 made by Dr. AQ Khan research labs and NDC. Yes, It apparently reduces the penetration of KE rounds. but I’ve never seen any official source to back that up, I’ve only seen official sources talk about it effecting the performance of CE rounds and not KE. However there may have been upgrades/changes in it during its service to change that, it wouldn’t be entirely unbelievable because if it was too much worst than K-5, then PA wouldn’t have opted for it, they did have access to K-5 while making AK. However weight constraints may also have been a factor.
> 
> Most of the information on it is lost to time unfortunately, it’s likely better in performance to FY-2, but by how much, I don’t know, either way, it’s in need of an upgrade, and the ERA coverage is more of an issue than the ERA itself.
> 
> it’s set up a few different ways, either single or double stacked on both turret and hull (usually only single bricks are seen on service tanks, I’ve only ever seen double on early tanks or display models, I assume weight plays a part here as the engine is not too strong, either way, we know it can be double or single stacked as needed for improved performance).
> 
> There aren’t really any protection numbers for it available, but dimensions are as follows;
> 
> _The Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories, well known for the design, development and production of missile and rocket systems, have developed the AORAK Mk 1 explosive reactive armour (ERA) system to improve the combat survivability of tanks and armoured fighting vehicles against attack from Chemical Energy (CE) projectiles.
> So far, the Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories have developed three different sizes of ERA modules to meet different user requirements.
> They are known as Type A, B and C and differ only in their size. Each module consists of two thin steel plates between which the explosive is inserted. This in turn is inserted in a box which is then bolted on to the hull or turret of the vehicle.
> Efforts have also been made to reduce the risk of accidental detonation of the ERA modules by small arms fire, shell fragments and lightning strikes as well as reducing the sympathetic detonation of surrounding ERA modules.
> This armour system is claimed to have a shelf-life of 10 years and an operational temperature range of -40 to +52 º C.
> 
> 
> Specifications
> 
> Type A
> Type B
> Type C
> 
> Size
> 305 × 305 mm
> 229 × 229 mm
> 152 × 152 mm
> 
> Weight
> 16 kg
> 9 kg
> 8 kg
> 
> Weight of explosive sheet
> 1.2 kg
> 0.75 kg
> 0.35 kg _


Thank you for the clarification! It must be assumed, according to GJB 2336A "Specifications for reactive armor", if FY-4 ERA is able to reduce 600mm armor piercing shot about 30%


Spoiler: FY-4 performance












Then, I guess, AORAK throwing plate (at least in type A ERA) should be approximately ~16mm and it will be able to reduce level for ~20% against APFSDS like 3БМ32, DM33, and so on level

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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Thank you for the clarification! It must be assumed, according to GJB 2336A "Specifications for reactive armor", if FY-4 ERA is able to reduce 600mm armor piercing shot about 30%
> 
> 
> Spoiler: FY-4 performance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 811067
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, I guess, AORAK throwing plate (at least in type A ERA) should be approximately ~16mm and it will be able to reduce level for ~20% against APFSDS like 3БМ32, DM33, and so on level


According to some Chinese sources, new version of FY4 reduces penetration of BTA-4 APFSDS (600MM penetration) by 40% or 250MM. However some other sources also say 30% for same ammo, apparently there is a difference in the versions of FY4 here due to thickness.

But yes, that 20% maybe safe assumption for AORAK in case of older ammo. Maybe slightly less potent against BM42, but still better than nothing. Pakistans main adversary (india), only uses BM42 or BM-17 APFSDS.






Here is Aorak when double stacked. Or maybe that is ERA frame, but if it is a frame that would be weird because usually it’s mounted without frame. So I assume it’s double stacked ERA.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> According to some Chinese sources, new version of FY4 reduces penetration of BTA-4 APFSDS (600MM penetration) by 40% or 250MM. However some other sources also say 30% for same ammo, apparently there is a difference in the versions of FY4 here due to thickness.
> 
> But yes, that 20% maybe safe assumption for AORAK in case of older ammo. Maybe slightly less potent against BM42, but still better than nothing. Pakistans main adversary (india), only uses BM42 or BM-17 APFSDS.
> 
> View attachment 811118
> 
> 
> Here is Aorak when double stacked. Or maybe that is ERA frame, but if it is a frame that would be weird because usually it’s mounted without frame. So I assume it’s double stacked ERA.
> View attachment 811119



About BTA4 reducing, I may suggest that the main difference between FY-IV versions lies between amount of throwing plates or their thikness. I mean, If there were ~30% reducing in such conditions for APFSDS




Spoiler: CE tests for FY-IV



Machine translated


4. 4. 4. 1.3 Type III Reactive armor

The schematic diagram of the anti-armor-breaking test layout of FY-IV reactive armor is shown in Figure 3.

Other Type III reactive armor can be implemented with reference to:

a) The test adopts a static armor-breaking test, and the impact point is set to the center of the reactive armor.;
b) Rolled homogeneous armored steel plate: thickness 150mm, placement normal angle 68";
c) Reactive armor: the normal angle of placement is 68°, and the upper surface is 105mm±5mm from the upper surface of the armored steel plate.:
d) Armor-breaking bomb: type 800 standard armor-breaking bomb with a blast height of 375mm±5mm.

-Armored steel plate
FY-IV reaction pack:
Type 800 armor-breaking bomb
Figure 3 Schematic diagram of FY-IV reactive armor breaking test layout









and



Spoiler: APFSDS tests of FY-IV



Machine translated


4.4. 5.1.2 Type III Reactive Armor:

The schematic diagram of the anti-armor-piercing test arrangement of FY4 reactive armor is shown in Figure 5. Other Type II reactive armor can be implemented with reference to:

a) Rolled homogeneous armored steel plate: thickness 220mm, placement normal angle 68°;
b) Reactive armor: the normal angle of placement is 68°, and the upper surface of the reactive armor is 105mm±5mm from the upper surface of the armored steel plate.;
c) Armor-piercing bullet: 125mm armor-piercing bullet, the velocity of the projectile is 1583m/s±10m/s;
d) Determine the impact point according to the center position of the armor-piercing bullet crater; 150mm~385mm from the lower edge of the indentation of the armored steel plate, and 25mm from the left and right areas (the non-shaded area shown on the left) are valid areas, and the others are invalid areas; when the impact point is in the effective area, they are all effective bombs; when the invalid area is hit and the reactive armor is detonated, qualified as valid, and unqualified as invalid.

(That's about left-side picture)
Armored steel plate
Effective area edge device
Press the boundary
FV4 reverse armor
25
68°

Armor-piercing bullets
Figure 5 Left: Schematic diagram of the effective area (the shaded area is the invalid area, and the dotted line is the effective area), right: Schematic diagram of the test layout








So, my guesses are there:

Probably first versions of FY-IV used some plates about ~16mm first and secondary plate about ~10mm thickness, then it was incresed to ~16-20mm, that could be made in 85mm height block. But, there may be difference between height of early FY-IV and possibly "new one", so it's only guesses. In addition, they could change throwing time for secondary plate, to make it more reliable in terms of damaging rod of APFSDS

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## DeusExAstra

If possible, I would like to clarify, according to the brochure on the first page there is a thermal imaging for gunner (second generation?) and an independent commander's sight with thermal imaging (second generation)?


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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> If possible, I would like to clarify, according to the brochure on the first page there is a thermal imaging for gunner (second generation?) and an independent commander's sight with thermal imaging (second generation)?


In the base model Al Khalid, The gunner has a second generation thermal sight (Catherine FC) along with his normal day sight. The commander has an independent, stabilized and magnified day and night panoramic sight with second generation IIT (night vision) but no thermal sight of his own. He can access the gunners thermal from his screen. 

In Newer Al khalids and Al khalid-I, the gunner has a third generation thermal sight (SAGEM MATIS). While the commander again has a similar independent panoramic sight as above but now with third generation IIT (night vision) and similar access to gunners thermals through his screen. 

Al Khalid doesn’t have proper CITV in either case, but it has the next best thing. I believe Al Khalid is or was offered by HIT with a commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV) but the army did not buy it with that because they considered it an unnecessary cost, which makes sense considering the adversary doesn’t have any tanks with commanders independent sights at all.

CITV is however present on VT4P and is expected to be present on the upcoming new version of Al Khalid.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> In the base model Al Khalid, The gunner has a second generation thermal sight (Catherine FC) along with his normal day sight. The commander has an independent, stabilized and magnified day and night panoramic sight with second generation IIT (night vision) but no thermal sight of his own. He can access the gunners thermal from his screen.
> 
> In Newer Al khalids and Al khalid-I, the gunner has a third generation thermal sight (SAGEM MATIS). While the commander again has a similar independent panoramic sight as above but now with third generation IIT (night vision) and similar access to gunners thermals through his screen.
> 
> Al Khalid doesn’t have proper CITV in either case, but it has the next best thing. I believe Al Khalid is or was offered by HIT with a commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV) but the army did not buy it with that because they considered it an unnecessary cost, which makes sense considering the adversary doesn’t have any tanks with commanders independent sights at all.
> 
> CITV is however present on VT4P and is expected to be present on the upcoming new version of Al Khalid.


Thank you for the clarification!

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## DeusExAstra

I recently came across information about 125mm APFSDS "Naiza", there were some info about 550 RHA / 2 km and it's made from depleted uranium. I also know that China has export APFSDS 125-IIM, 220/66,4 at 2 km= ~275/60 at 2 km = 550mm RHA LOS, It confuses me a little  Could it be 275/60 = ~550mm RHA LOS at 2 km for APFSDS "Naiza"?
So, could someone to clarify current 125mm APFSDS nomenclature Al Khalid using?

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## Scorpiooo

How many VT4 we received till now ? If anybody have info

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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> I recently came across information about 125mm APFSDS "Naiza", there were some info about 550 RHA / 2 km and it's made from depleted uranium. I also know that China has export APFSDS 125-IIM, 220/66,4 at 2 km= ~275/60 at 2 km = 550mm RHA LOS, It confuses me a little  Could it be 275/60 = ~550mm RHA LOS at 2 km for APFSDS "Naiza"?
> So, could someone to clarify current 125mm APFSDS nomenclature Al Khalid using?


China has 4 common 125MM APFSDS rounds:

125-1 (Also made in Pakistan as APFSDS/T and used by Pakistan army on all its tanks apart from VT-4). It has 460MM penetration at 0 degrees at 2KM. (220MM/60 degrees).

125-IIM, which has 220MM/66.4 degrees at 2KM. This one is not used by Pakistan. Is longer than 125-I.

BTA-4 (export designation)/DTW-125 (Chinese designation). Sometimes falsely called 125-II. China uses this ammunition for ZTZ-96. Also used by Pakistan in VT4 (can be used in Al-Khalid, T80UD etc and will likely make its way to them in the future, however it’s not in use on those tanks yet). 220MM/68.5 degrees. Is the same length as 125-IIM.

125-III or DTC-10-125. Used only by China on ZTZ-99. Exact penetration is unknown but is higher than BTA-4, although likely not by too much. Is slightly longer than BTA-4.

Pakistani Naiza is a depleted uranium round, it has the exact same design and dimensions as Chinese 125-I (so it’s shorter than 125-IIM) but with a DU penetrator designed by Pakistan. China itself does not make or use DU ammunition. Pakistan made this ammo to supplement its existing 125-I and its currently the mainstay ammo for all Pakistani tanks apart from VT-4. It’s been in service since the early 2000s. Penetration is 550-580MM/0 degrees at 2KM (the numbers vary a little from source to source). So similar performance to 125-IIM, but similar dimensions to 125-I.

Pakistan also made an upgraded version of the 125-I ammo called APFSDS/T(I) by giving it the same casing style as BM-42 Mango APFSDS. It has the same penetrator, but better muzzle velocity and accuracy (and hence higher penetration). It was displayed at exhibitions, but I don’t know if it’s in service.

So currently the only two ammunition used on Al-Khalid are APFSDS/T (and maybe APFSDS/T(I) if Pakistan army ever bought those) and Naiza. BTA-4 can be fired from Al-Khalid so might be it’s future ammo.

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## kursed

So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?

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## HRK

kursed said:


> So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid and AK-1 from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?


are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???



kursed said:


> weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?


yes ...

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> China has 4 common 125MM APFSDS rounds:
> 
> 125-1 (Also made in Pakistan as APFSDS/T and used by Pakistan army on all its tanks apart from VT-4). It has 460MM penetration at 0 degrees at 2KM. (220MM/60 degrees).
> 
> 125-IIM, which has 220MM/66.4 degrees at 2KM. This one is not used by Pakistan. Is longer than 125-I.
> 
> BTA-4 (export designation)/DTW-125 (Chinese designation). Sometimes falsely called 125-II. China uses this ammunition for ZTZ-96. Also used by Pakistan in VT4 (can be used in Al-Khalid, T80UD etc and will likely make its way to them in the future, however it’s not in use on those tanks yet). 220MM/68.5 degrees. Is the same length as 125-IIM.
> 
> 125-III or DTC-10-125. Used only by China on ZTZ-99. Exact penetration is unknown but is higher than BTA-4, although likely not by too much. Is slightly longer than BTA-4.
> 
> Pakistani Naiza is a depleted uranium round, it has the exact same design and dimensions as Chinese 125-I (so it’s shorter than 125-IIM) but with a DU penetrator designed by Pakistan. China itself does not make or use DU ammunition. Pakistan made this ammo to supplement its existing 125-I and its currently the mainstay ammo for all Pakistani tanks apart from VT-4. It’s been in service since the early 2000s. Penetration is 550-580MM/0 degrees at 2KM (the numbers vary a little from source to source). So similar performance to 125-IIM, but similar dimensions to 125-I.
> 
> Pakistan also made an upgraded version of the 125-I ammo called APFSDS/T(I) by giving it the same casing style as BM-42 Mango APFSDS. It has the same penetrator, but better muzzle velocity and accuracy (and hence higher penetration). It was displayed at exhibitions, but I don’t know if it’s in service.
> 
> So currently the only two ammunition used on Al-Khalid are APFSDS/T (and maybe APFSDS/T(I) if Pakistan army ever bought those) and Naiza. BTA-4 can be fired from Al-Khalid so might be it’s future ammo.


Thank you for clarification about ammo!

If BTA-4's are equal to DTW-125 onew, so, it's rod length should be about ~570mm with muzzle velocity ~1730 m/s, which means 220/68,5 are equal to ~300mm/60 at 2 km, pretty good for non-widened autoloader, I should say. Like 3BM60.

About DTC10-125, according to my sources it's rod is about ~590-600mm length, taking into account increased (for ~4%, counting at DTW-125 level as 100%) muzzle velocity to 1800 m/s, so it performance could be above up to 10-13,3%, which means about ~250mm/68,5 at 2 km = up to 340mm / 60 at 2 km (if we suppose it's speed decreasing about 3-3,5 % per kilometer).


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## Bin Laden

iLION12345_1 said:


> China itself does not make or use DU ammunition.


China itself definitely makes and uses DU ammunition just in secrecy.Specs of their ammo aren't openly available especially newer ones for type99a some of which supposedly even have around 850/800mm of penetration.

125-III is DU that enables it to have more penetration than previous version. Without increasing size.

This guy discussed them in his video:




(Note: Don't take it as a definite source)


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## kursed

HRK said:


> are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???
> 
> 
> yes ...


My bad, for AK. But even then, AK's have Ukranian engines, so why Chinese?

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## HRK

kursed said:


> My bad, for AK. But even then, AK's have Ukranian engines, so why Chinese?


yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....


IIRC the VT4's turbocharged engine left a good impression.

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## iLION12345_1

kursed said:


> So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?





HRK said:


> are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???
> 
> 
> yes ...





HRK said:


> yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the VT4's turbocharged engine left a good impression.


If you’ve indeed seen Chinese engines meant for the AK, then those are meant for the next iteration of it.

Baseline AK uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 engines while the AK-1s use 6TD-2E engines. They’re about the same, the latter having better fuel economy and reliability. They’re not that good, AK was originally meant to have a British or German engine but due to sanctions they had to go with the only remaining option, the Ukrainian one. It was quite a compromise too. The 6TD series is very compact and has a good gearbox and average reliability, but it produces poor torque. That’s why the VT4 is so much more mobile compared to the Al-Khalid despite being heavier. AK series is saved by its comparatively light weight, otherwise it would be a rather sluggish tank with that engine (The T84 OPLOT-M uses that engine as well and is heavier than the VT-4, the results are not good to say the least). Add to that Ukraines slow delivery times due to their economic and political situation.

PA and HIT have been searching for an engine replacement for the AK for quite a while, they were considering a newer Ukrainian option at one point (maybe they still are), but it’s true that the VT4s engine left quite a positive impression on the PA after trials, so much so that they asked for just the engine from the tank after the first trials so they could put it in the AK (that’s before the improved version of the VT4 in service right now was trialed).

I believe the engines you saw are for the next iteration of the AK. HITs chairman confirmed in an interview that the next iteration of the AK would be coming soon and might share technology from the VT-4. I’m expecting CITVs, New engines (and consequently new ERA) as well as An RWS (we already saw that in a documentary). I believe I made a more detailed post on this entire topic a few pages back on this thread. We can probably expect to see this new AK after AK-1 deliveries are completed (which should be around 2024 if HIT works at max capacity).

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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Thank you for clarification about ammo!
> 
> If BTA-4's are equal to DTW-125 onew, so, it's rod length should be about ~570mm with muzzle velocity ~1730 m/s, which means 220/68,5 are equal to ~300mm/60 at 2 km, pretty good for non-widened autoloader, I should say. Like 3BM60.
> 
> About DTC10-125, according to my sources it's rod is about ~590-600mm length, taking into account increased (for ~4%, counting at DTW-125 level as 100%) muzzle velocity to 1800 m/s, so it performance could be above up to 10-13,3%, which means about ~250mm/68,5 at 2 km = up to 340mm / 60 at 2 km (if we suppose it's speed decreasing about 3-3,5 % per kilometer).


Yes, BTA-4 and DTW-125 are the same. Information about its length, muzzle velocity and other parameters are easily available online. It’s performance is pretty good for what it is, but it’s at the absolute maximum length that can be accommodated by the T72 style auto-loader found in Al-Khalid, VT-4 and other Chinese tanks, so if they want to further improve, they will need new widened auto-loaders. 

There is a picture of DTC-10-125 and DTW-125 lying side by side, I’m sure you’ve seen it, and yes the length difference is about as much as you estimated. Can’t be sure about performance because we don’t know how similar the penetrators are.



Bin Laden said:


> China itself definitely makes and uses DU ammunition just in secrecy.Specs of their ammo aren't openly available especially newer ones for type99a some of which supposedly even have around 850/800mm of penetration.
> 
> 125-III is DU that enables it to have more penetration than previous version. Without increasing size.
> 
> This guy discussed them in his video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Note: Don't take it as a definite source)


Red effect is my friend, I’ve seen the video. 125-III does not have anywhere near that penetration, nor is it known to be a DU. It’s too short to have that sort of penetration. And the penetration values for all Chinese ammunition except 125-III are very easily available online. 

The ammo Red is talking about in the video is some new ammo that China supposedly has with that sort of penetration, but it’s never been seen so far. So it’s unconfirmed if it exists. That being said, given Chinas recent technological prowess and the fact that they have to keep up with the west, it’s highly likely they’re working on or have already made such ammo but haven’t revealed it or brought it into service because they could be waiting for a new gun or other upgrades for ZTZ-99A. The few sources that exist about this ammo and it’s penetration values are the ones red used in his video. 

Red has mistakenly called the ammo 125-III which we already know to exist and have seen many times.

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## kursed

iLION12345_1 said:


> If you’ve indeed seen Chinese engines meant for the AK, then those are meant for the next iteration of it.
> 
> Baseline AK uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 engines while the AK-1s use 6TD-2E engines. They’re about the same, the latter having better fuel economy and reliability. They’re not that good, AK was originally meant to have a British or German engine but due to sanctions they had to go with the only remaining option, the Ukrainian one. It was quite a compromise too. The 6TD series is very compact and has a good gearbox and average reliability, but it produces poor torque. That’s why the VT4 is so much more mobile compared to the Al-Khalid despite being heavier. AK series is saved by its comparatively light weight, otherwise it would be a rather sluggish tank with that engine (The T84 OPLOT-M uses that engine as well and is heavier than the VT-4, the results are not good to say the least). Add to that Ukraines slow delivery times due to their economic and political situation.
> 
> PA and HIT have been searching for an engine replacement for the AK for quite a while, they were considering a newer Ukrainian option at one point (maybe they still are), but it’s true that the VT4s engine left quite a positive impression on the PA after trials, so much so that they asked for just the engine from the tank after the first trials so they could put it in the AK (that’s before the improved version of the VT4 in service right now was trialed).
> 
> I believe the engines you saw are for the next iteration of the AK. HITs chairman confirmed in an interview that the next iteration of the AK would be coming soon and might share technology from the VT-4. I’m expecting CITVs, New engines (and consequently new ERA) as well as An RWS (we already saw that in a documentary). I believe I made a more detailed post on this entire topic a few pages back on this thread. We can probably expect to see this new AK after AK-1 deliveries are completed (which should be around 2024 if HIT works at max capacity).


Yep. The engines are meant for AK and have shared evidence of it with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). Just couldn’t understand the sudden change.

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## iLION12345_1

kursed said:


> Yep. The engines are meant for AK and have shared evidence of it with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). Just couldn’t understand the sudden change.


That’s a very good development, the current engine is holding the AK back from a lot of things due to the weight limitations. Now they can put modern ERA on it and even give it a larger and redesigned turret, among many other things. And that’s all besides the massive mobility boost it’ll get.
It’s not sudden though, it’s been a long time coming. If it’s really the same engine from the VT4 (or even the smaller 1300HP version of it, given they both have a massive torque improvement over the current engine), then the AK is about to jump quite a few steps in capability (I might be internally fan-girling over this change because of how big it is.)

I hope they got ToT with it too. HIT really needs to start making engines itself.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes, BTA-4 and DTW-125 are the same. Information about its length, muzzle velocity and other parameters are easily available online. It’s performance is pretty good for what it is, but it’s at the absolute maximum length that can be accommodated by the T72 style auto-loader found in Al-Khalid, VT-4 and other Chinese tanks, so if they want to further improve, they will need new widened auto-loaders.
> 
> There is a picture of DTC-10-125 and DTW-125 lying side by side, I’m sure you’ve seen it, and yes the length difference is about as much as you estimated. Can’t be sure about performance because we don’t know how similar the penetrators are.
> 
> 
> Red effect is my friend, I’ve seen the video. 125-III does not have anywhere near that penetration, nor is it known to be a DU. It’s too short to have that sort of penetration. And the penetration values for all Chinese ammunition except 125-III are very easily available online.
> 
> The ammo Red is talking about in the video is some new ammo that China supposedly has with that sort of penetration, but it’s never been seen so far. So it’s unconfirmed if it exists. That being said, given Chinas recent technological prowess and the fact that they have to keep up with the west, it’s highly likely they’re working on or have already made such ammo but haven’t revealed it or brought it into service because they could be waiting for a new gun or other upgrades for ZTZ-99A. The few sources that exist about this ammo and it’s penetration values are the ones red used in his video.
> 
> Red has mistakenly called the ammo 125-III which we already know to exist and have seen many times.


About Red's video: my guess is they just shown 680mm of penetration like 680/0, meanwhile it was LOS, which even tungsten rod with lenght about ~590-600mm with muzzle velocity ~1800 m/s could reach. However, that's really good for such kind of APFSDS - it's really getting closer to 3БМ59, but it could be used in standard autoloaders (but I'm not pretty sure if it could be fired from any 125mm gun, except of ZPT98).

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## Khanate

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s a very good development, the current engine is holding the AK back from a lot of things due to the weight limitations. Now they can put modern ERA on it and even give it a larger and redesigned turret, among many other things. And that’s all besides the massive mobility boost it’ll get.
> It’s not sudden though, it’s been a long time coming. If it’s really the same engine from the VT4 (or even the smaller 1300HP version of it, given they both have a massive torque improvement over the current engine), then the AK is about to jump quite a few steps in capability (I might be internally fan-girling over this change because of how big it is.)
> 
> I hope they got ToT with it too. HIT really needs to start making engines itself.




Assuming the Chinese engine is picked for AK-2 with ToT, would HIT bring the engine to AK-1 or AK at some point in the future?


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## iLION12345_1

Khanate said:


> Assuming the Chinese engine is picked for AK-2 with ToT, would HIT bring the engine to AK-1 or AK at some point in the future?


It depends really. If the engine requires some sort of hull modification then they might be a little reluctant to do it right away or at all. The Chinese engine is larger than the 6TD2 in the Al-Khalid currently, however the engine bay should have enough space for a larger engine (just how large remains to be seen, hence hull modifications may be needed, specifically in regards to raising the engine deck as done in the VT-4)
Plus the AK-1s are too new and the engines bought too recently for them to put the Chinese engines in them right away. 

What they could possibly do is replace the engines when the tanks eventually get rebuilt In the future, much like the T80UDs are being rebuilt right now, at that point the engines need to be replaced or rebuilt anyways and PA might consider it a better investment to upgrade them instead. On that note, PA was also experiment with upgrading the engines on the T80UDs, at least 2 and maybe 4 T80UDs were upgraded with 6TD-2E engines (same ones in Al-Khalid-1) instead of getting new 6TD-1s (the actual engine for the T80UD) during the recent rebuilds, these may be for testing purposes to see if such a replacement is feasible for the future.

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## DeusExAstra

About AK-1 gun: does it have any name? I mean, index, like 2A46M, ZPT-88, ZTP-98? Or it's just 125mm smoothbore gun?


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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> About AK-1 gun: does it have any name? I mean, index, like 2A46M, ZPT-88, ZTP-98? Or it's just 125mm smoothbore gun?


It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.


Thank you! So, I guess, I will call it just 125mm smoothbore gun.

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## luciferdd

iLION12345_1 said:


> It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.


Some Chinese professional military commentator had mentioned that Pakistan have one Pretty good 125mm gun for tank,it's really not easy for Pakistanis,Good job!

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## iLION12345_1

luciferdd said:


> Some Chinese professional military commentator had mentioned that Pakistan have one Pretty good 125mm gun for tank,it's really not easy for Pakistanis,Good job!


Yes, that’s one specific area where Pakistan managed to take a step ahead. While the Al-Khalid was being made HIT and PA noticed that the KBA-3 (2A46M) and ZPT-98 both had certain features that the other didn’t, so they thought to combine the two. That was the easy part, the hard part was the metallurgy of it, due to Pakistans relations with NATO at the time, HIT was able to gain expertise on metallurgy and barrel-making, and set up its own facility with German and French help. 

Hence the quality of the barrels (accuracy and barrel life) were at par with the ones being made by China, Russia and the west, but the gun had the features of both Russian (front-removable) and Chinese (dual-chromium plating) guns. Pakistan has continued to use its own barrels since, including on its VT4, as the normal VT-4 has the traditional Chinese design without the front-removable barrel.

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## iLION12345_1

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes, that’s one specific area where Pakistan managed to take a step ahead. While the Al-Khalid was being made HIT and PA noticed that the KBA-3 (2A46M) and ZPT-98 both had certain features that the other didn’t, so they thought to combine the two. That was the easy part, the hard part was the metallurgy of it, due to Pakistans relations with NATO at the time, HIT was able to gain expertise on metallurgy and barrel-making, and set up its own facility with German and French help.
> 
> Hence the quality of the barrels (accuracy and barrel life) were at par with the ones being made by China, Russia and the west, but the gun had the features of both Russian (front-removable) and Chinese (dual-chromium plating) guns. Pakistan has continued to use its own barrels since, including on its VT4, as the normal VT-4 has the traditional Chinese design without the front-removable barrel.


In continuation of this post and the one I made here : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ah-class-frigates.733264/page-6#post-13550272

This metallurgy capability has helped HIT immensely over the years, one of the few local examples of proper Planning and ToT paying off in the long run. Not a single T90 or T72 barrel was made in india for the longest time (I believe they still have to import them from Russia, but now it’s more a matter of Russia refusing to give ToT rather than india not having the capability). Meanwhile HIT has made several thousand barrels at this point and continues to produce over a hundred every year, and when was the last time we heard of barrel or ammo malfunctions with the PA? That’s what happens when you learn steelwork from the Germans.

HIT has been able to re-arm M109s, M110s and several other artillery pieces without any further foreign help, and the capability has surely helped in developing the Upcoming Indigenous Towed Howitzer.

And to think Pakistan had so many more opportunities of this kind, worst still is the fact that Pakistan actually realized this, just a little too late, around the time the sanctions were already kicking in, first on China and then on Pakistan.

We had so many projects in the pipeline, HIT and others were making stuff because their designers wanted to, not because the army needed it, both in the air and on the ground, some on the sea as well. I believe we’re once again heading into an era where this will be possible, just with another set of countries this time (Turkey is the first to come to mind, China as always remains an option, but we must capture that marker before it becomes too self sufficient as well). I hope the relevant people at the top are taking note.

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## GriffinsRule

The gun was German initially I believe and we eventually got the tech from them to produce them at home.

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## Inception-06

GriffinsRule said:


> The gun was German initially I believe and we eventually got the tech from them to produce them at home.



not really!


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## GriffinsRule

Inception-06 said:


> not really!


Ah had to dig a bit to jolt my memory. The first guns barrels were produced in France, not Germany. It wasnt until 2011 when the first barrel was produced in house using local steel. Before HIT just machined the guns from blanks provided by France.

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## iLION12345_1

GriffinsRule said:


> Ah had to dig a bit to jolt my memory. The first guns barrels were produced in France, not Germany. It wasnt until 2011 when the first barrel was produced in house using local steel. Before HIT just machined the guns from blanks provided by France.


Gun blanks were improved from France and then machined at HIT before 2011. Germany helped set up the facility to produce our own guns.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> Gun blanks were improved from France and then machined at HIT before 2011. Germany helped set up the facility to produce our own guns.


 HIT has made tanks,IFVs ,APCs, 155mm towed Howitzer etc.They will definitely continue to improve their products.
Now what reasonable next step you think HIT should take to help ground forces of Pakistan along with improving their current products?

Simply putting,what should be the next achievable weapon HIT should work on?


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## iLION12345_1

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> HIT has made tanks,IFVs ,APCs, 155mm towed Howitzer etc.They will definitely continue to improve their products.
> Now what reasonable next step you think HIT should take to help ground forces of Pakistan along with improving their current products?
> 
> Simply putting,what should be the next achievable weapon HIT should work on?


HIT needs innovation, it doesn’t matter what they create as long as they actually create something new. Pakistani forces needs new IFVs, new APCs, new artillery, new armored vechiles, new Recovery vechiles, MRAPs. 
It’s not that there isn’t demand or that HIT doesn’t have the capability, it’s that we’re afraid of taking the baby step and starting R&D. The PA will already have a foreign option in service by the time HIT can develop anything, which discourages them from even trying. The Towed howitzer is a ray of hope in this regard.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iLION12345_1 said:


> HIT needs innovation, it doesn’t matter what they create as long as they actually create something new. Pakistani forces needs new IFVs, new APCs, new artillery, new armored vechiles, new Recovery vechiles, MRAPs.
> It’s not that there isn’t demand or that HIT doesn’t have the capability, it’s that we’re afraid of taking the baby step and starting R&D. The PA will already have a foreign option in service by the time HIT can develop anything, which discourages them from even trying. The Towed howitzer is a ray of hope in this regard.


Yes what bout the towed gun. Where has its development reached? Any perimeters set ? Any deadlines or timelines?

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## iLION12345_1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes what bout the towed gun. Where has its development reached? Any perimeters set ? Any deadlines or timelines?


considering the fact that PA hasn’t opened any trials for towed artillery guns yet, I’d say it’s too early to tell. When PA trials the howitzer, it will very likely also trial foreign options with it. They’re probably focusing on the SPs first, that’s what it seems with the SH-15 news going about recently.

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## Phantom.

Tactical Characteristics of AORAK MK-II

Dimension of kits available : Type A: 12x12 (Inches)
Type B: 9x9 (Inches)
Type C: 6x6 (Inches)

Weight of complete kits : Type A: 20 Kg
Type B: 15 Kg
Type C: 12 Kg

Weight of explosive sheets : Type A: 2.0 Kg
Type B: 1.5 Kg
Type C: 1.0 Kg

Capable to dislodge/shatter : No penetration
jet formation of conventional
shaped-charge heat-round
with no penetration

Deflagration-to-detonation : No detonation

Oxyacetylene flame test : No detonation

Mounting capability : All types of armour vehicles

Sympathetic detonation : Free of sympathetic detonation

Operational temperature Range : -40 °C to +50 °C

Safety : Safe to handle W/O
Any hazard

Shelf life : More than 10 years

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## iLION12345_1

Phantom. said:


> Tactical Characteristics of AORAK MK-II
> 
> Dimension of kits available : Type A: 12x12 (Inches)
> Type B: 9x9 (Inches)
> Type C: 6x6 (Inches)
> 
> Weight of complete kits : Type A: 20 Kg
> Type B: 15 Kg
> Type C: 12 Kg
> 
> Weight of explosive sheets : Type A: 2.0 Kg
> Type B: 1.5 Kg
> Type C: 1.0 Kg
> 
> Capable to dislodge/shatter : No penetration
> jet formation of conventional
> shaped-charge heat-round
> with no penetration
> 
> Deflagration-to-detonation : No detonation
> 
> Oxyacetylene flame test : No detonation
> 
> Mounting capability : All types of armour vehicles
> 
> Sympathetic detonation : Free of sympathetic detonation
> 
> Operational temperature Range : -40 °C to +50 °C
> 
> Safety : Safe to handle W/O
> Any hazard
> 
> Shelf life : More than 10 years


Where did you get this from?

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## Phantom.

iLION12345_1 said:


> Where did you get this from?


Got this from KRLs website the website dosent exist anymore but in the internet archives there is one page saved (2003) with info on both AORAK MK1 and MK2 i think this MK-2 version might be different from the one on AK-1 as that one was recently developed wasnt it?

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## iLION12345_1

Phantom. said:


> Got this from KRLs website the website dosent exist anymore but in the internet archives there is one page saved (2003) with info on both AORAK MK1 and MK2 i think this MK-2 version might be different from the one on AK-1 as that one was recently developed wasnt it?


Yeah there’s no pictures on Pakistani side, I will try on Chinese forums later, this is all I could find:

Specifications:

Type A
Type B
Type C

Size
305 × 305 mm
229 × 229 mm
152 × 152 mm

Weight
16 kg
9 kg
8 kg

Weight of explosive sheet
1.2 kg
0.75 kg
0.35 kg

This is for AORAK 1 off the same website, dimensions are the same. Weights are slightly different, not sure what the difference is. AK-1 hasn’t been seen with ERA much and the few times it has it’s the same as AK. I assume it’s all the Same ERA. Not even sure if AORAK 2 was used. Pakistan hasn’t developed any new ERA after this. AK-2 is probably going to have Chinese ERA.


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## alimobin memon

No more engines for ak tanks now ? Ukraine situation says so


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## iLION12345_1

alimobin memon said:


> No more engines for ak tanks now ? Ukraine situation says so


HIT Should already have enough engines to finish AK-1 orders for the PA. HIT is Already in the process of switching to new Chinese engines for further models of AK.

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## alimobin memon

iLION12345_1 said:


> HIT Should already have enough engines to finish AK-1 orders for the PA. HIT is Already in the process of switching to new Chinese engines for further models of AK.


InshaAllah, i hope vt4 engine cam be installed on t80 and aks


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## Iron Shrappenel

In light of recent developments.... How much and how long can the Pakistani inventory of 6TD-2 parts last... As far as I know Pakistan imports the motor oil from them as well...
Implications on Al-Khalid 2 and the acquisition of 1400 bhp engine....


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## Dreamer.

What about engines and/or spare parts needed for maintenance/replacement?

BTW any chance ukraine defence industry continues to function after a pause under 'new management' or is it totally history?



Iron Shrappenel said:


> In light of recent developments.... How much and how long can the Pakistani inventory of 6TD-2 parts last... *As far as I know Pakistan imports the motor oil from them as well...*
> Implications on Al-Khalid 2 and the acquisition of 1400 bhp engine....


 surely there's other sources for motor oil?

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## Khan vilatey

Dreamer. said:


> What about engines and/or spare parts needed for maintenance/replacement?
> 
> BTW any chance ukraine defence industry continues to function after a pause under 'new management' or is it totally history?


Will run under new management as they used to provide spares for a lot of Russian Allies 

K


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## Iron Shrappenel

Dreamer. said:


> What about engines and/or spare parts needed for maintenance/replacement?
> 
> BTW any chance ukraine defence industry continues to function after a pause under 'new management' or is it totally history?
> 
> 
> surely there's other sources for motor oil?


It seems that these oils were engine specific thus Pakistan kept buying from them...



Khan vilatey said:


> Will run under new management as they used to provide spares for a lot of Russian Allies
> 
> K


Doesn't seem that simple... Especially if Russia wants de militarization of Ukraine... So they would leave the factories intact ?


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## Khanate

iLION12345_1 said:


> HIT Should already have enough engines to finish AK-1 orders for the PA. HIT is Already in the process of switching to new Chinese engines for further models of AK.




A few weeks back, we were discussing the possibility of a Chinese engine replacement for AK.

I suppose Ukraine war will force PA's hand.




Dreamer. said:


> What about engines and/or spare parts needed for maintenance/replacement?
> 
> BTW any chance ukraine defence industry continues to function after a pause under 'new management' or is it totally history?




Speculation is all you will get because no one knows how long this war will continue.

Safe to say, the turmoil in Ukraine will continue for some time.

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## blain2

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> HIT has made tanks,IFVs ,APCs, 155mm towed Howitzer etc.They will definitely continue to improve their products.
> Now what reasonable next step you think HIT should take to help ground forces of Pakistan along with improving their current products?
> 
> Simply putting,what should be the next achievable weapon HIT should work on?


Its not about "next" weapon. It is about increasing Pakistan's share of total ownership in whatever we already have in the works. The greater the % of ownership and self-sufficiency achieved, the more confidence to innovate.

Secondly, POF needs a serious boost of funding infusion/investment to enhance its infrastructure and assemblies. We need capital going into these ventures otherwise we will keep on spinning minor upgrades to systems being assembled/manufactured for the past 20 years. In this we have to take a lesson from the US defense industry. Nothing is government run. It is government funded but gives the various companies in the eco-system opportunity to get seeded and to pitch their proposals and then the government picks what is the best of the batch, at least in their own eyes.

In Pakistan, while we cannot replicate the above immediately, we need to seed private ventures and companies to do the same. It will take time but innovation will come from outside-in and not inside-out. Inside out is just managing. If we want to be competitive, then we have to open up ideation and seed ventures on defense projects.

Turks started doing this, our neighbor is trying to do the same. We need to broaden out beyond PoF but as always our government is cash strapped. Perhaps proper taxation and/or diversification of exports (E.g: IK: SW exports to reach $50B) will open up more fiscal space to take on such things.

I still credit the POF for doing what it can with thread-bare budget. To me it seems they sweat their assets quite a lot but overall Pakistan needs to allocate more funding for these ventures (including a serious increase in the defense budget).

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## iLION12345_1

Khanate said:


> A few weeks back, we were discussing the possibility of a Chinese engine replacement for AK.
> 
> I suppose Ukraine war will force PA's hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation is all you will get because no one knows how long this war will continue.
> 
> Safe to say, the turmoil in Ukraine will continue for some time.


Not just a possibility. Already happening, engines already delivered.



Iron Shrappenel said:


> In light of recent developments.... How much and how long can the Pakistani inventory of 6TD-2 parts last... As far as I know Pakistan imports the motor oil from them as well...
> Implications on Al-Khalid 2 and the acquisition of 1400 bhp engine....


Check above. Al-Khalid-2 is not going to be using a Ukrainian engine. I also talked about wether it was feasible to replace the 6TDs in older Al-Khalids. Will be very cost prohibitive due to the numbers, but is a possibility when the tanks need to be rebuilt or the engines replaced as they reach the end of their life (especially in older Al-Khalids).



Dreamer. said:


> What about engines and/or spare parts needed for maintenance/replacement?
> 
> BTW any chance ukraine defence industry continues to function after a pause under 'new management' or is it totally history?
> 
> 
> surely there's other sources for motor oil?


Good thing we have a good logistics system. We have plenty of spares to last us a while, and if not, we can always make them locally, yes, we have that capability, it’s just always been cheaper to import them, however when their hand has been forced. PA and HIT have localized. When Ukraine was having trouble delivering parts for the T80UD, we localized them, this included the entire FCS. An engine is also doable.

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## iLION12345_1

Iron Shrappenel said:


> It seems that these oils were engine specific thus Pakistan kept buying from them...
> 
> 
> Doesn't seem that simple... Especially if Russia wants de militarization of Ukraine... So they would leave the factories intact ?


So far Russia has been destroying selective infrastructure and keeping other. The armament factories at Ukraine are of good use to Russia if they can hold the area. They will want to keep them intact. Russian industry has been struggling.

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## Iron Shrappenel

iLION12345_1 said:


> So far Russia has been destroying selective infrastructure and keeping other. The armament factories at Ukraine are of good use to Russia if they can hold the area. They will want to keep them intact. Russian industry has been struggling.


I've just made a post wrt that on the Ukraine-Russian conflict thread... I'll attach SS of the location respective industries locations as per Wikipedia. Most are falling into Russian hands... Which raises 2 questions
1:- Will Russians supply to us ?
2:- Will the West let them supply to us i.e sanctions ?



iLION12345_1 said:


> So far Russia has been destroying selective infrastructure and keeping other. The armament factories at Ukraine are of good use to Russia if they can hold the area. They will want to keep them intact. Russian industry has been struggling.

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## iLION12345_1

Iron Shrappenel said:


> I've just made a post wrt that on the Ukraine-Russian conflict thread... I'll attach SS of the location respective industries locations as per Wikipedia. Most are falling into Russian hands... Which raises 2 questions
> 1:- Will Russians supply to us ?
> 2:- Will the West let them supply to us i.e sanctions ?


I made a post regarding this on the same thread that might answer your questions. If it doesn’t, feel free to ask again

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## Iron Shrappenel

iLION12345_1 said:


> I made a post regarding this on the same thread that might answer your questions. If it doesn’t, feel free to ask again


Share the specific post because I've missed it in the pages somewhere.

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## iLION12345_1

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Share the specific post because I've missed it in the pages somewhere.











Russia-Ukraine War - News and Developments


This is factually untrue. Nazi Germany extracted $26 billion in value from western Europe but only $1 billion from the Soviet Union. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_partisans It was ez pz for Nazi Germany to steal from Netherlands, Denmark and Norway, all of which were richer than...



defence.pk

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## GriffinsRule

And what of the Atak-2 Ukrainian engine the Turks were going to use?

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## Iron Shrappenel

GriffinsRule said:


> And what of the Atak-2 Ukrainian engine the Turks were going to use?


Phuked



GriffinsRule said:


> And what of the Atak-2 Ukrainian engine the Turks were going to use?


It was a ToT program... Nobody left to take ToT from atm..


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## Inception-06



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## alimobin memon

Do pakistani chinese origin tanks have same cook off issue as russian tanks ? Cause in many cases m1 abrams and other western tanks are penetrated but does not knock out a tank. but in case of russia once penetrated the stored ammo is causing the actual damage.

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## iLION12345_1

alimobin memon said:


> Do pakistani chinese origin tanks have same cook off issue as russian tanks ? Cause in many cases m1 abrams and other western tanks are penetrated but does not knock out a tank. but in case of russia once penetrated the stored ammo is causing the actual damage.


Russian origin tanks explode like that because any penetration that impacts the ammo stored in their carousel auto-loaders or elsewhere in the hull and turret of the vehicle blows up the tank, if you’ve seen Russian origin tanks with their turrets blown clean off, it’s because of this, and yes, it’s fairly common. 

Although The carousel is not well protected in T72 and T90S models, it is still hard to hit because it sits in the lower center of the tank, however the rest of the ammo that’s scattered around in the hull and turret is very easily damaged and is what often causes the cook-off and resulting explosion (though the carousels have known to explode too at times)

Russians have taken measures to fix this in later T90M models where the carousel has additional armor and the extra ammo (the reloads not carried in the carousel) have been moved to an isolated compartment in the rear of the turret, which has blowout panels, making it less likely for later T90M models to suffer the same fate as their older counterparts. 

This does not occur much in western tanks (though they’re definitely not immune to it) because they have manual loaders, they have made their tanks significantly bigger in order to make separate, isolated ammo storage compartments with blowout panels that ensure that even if a tank is penetrated, the ammo is safe, and if the ammo is hit, the blowout panels ensure that the crew does not get injured. Complete Ammo isolation also possible in tanks with auto-loaders, as seen in the T-14 and the Japanese MBTs using a bustle style auto-loaders that store ammo at the rear of the turret and only open it for reloading, instead of a carousel style auto-loader. However that does make the tank significantly more complex and hence wasn’t used in older designs like the T72, T90 etc. 

Chinese tanks use the exact same auto-loaders as Russian tanks, namely the ones from T72 and T90S, so they will definitely have this same problem, but it may not be as common as it is in the Russian tanks; because while the best option is to isolate the ammo as I stated above, there are other precautions that can be taken to reduce the risk of ammo cook off, some of these are;

1. Armored carousels as employed in the T90M, may also possibly be employed in VT-4 and ZTZ-99 but is unknown. 
2. Armored storage bins for ammo reloads, this is employed in Al-Khalid and VT-4, while the ammo outside the carousel isn’t completely isolated from the Crew, it’s put in armored storage bins in the crew compartment, these storages are also lined with Kevlar to prevent spalling and fragments. Each ammo bin has its own explosion and fire suppression system that can detect a fire and go off in milliseconds in order to reduce the risk of ammo cook off. 
In the Al-Khalid there’s two such storages, one at the rear of the turret and one on the side of the turret. These hold half the ammo reloads of the Al-Khalid, the other half is stored in a completely isolated compartment between the engine and crew compartment, it doesn’t have blow off panels, but it also has a similar explosion and fire suppression system. VT-4 employs a similar ammo storage strategy.
The issue with both these tanks is their extremely poor side armor, if any AT munition strikes the sides of these tanks, it will easily go through and poses a high risk of hitting ammo inside the tank and causing a catastrophic explosion. Indian T72 and T90S also have this side armor issue, but it’s not as bad as in the Pakistani tanks (however both of those have absolutely no ammo protection so they’re likely still worst off than the Pakistani tanks in regards to ammo cook-off).
3. Canisterised ammo, this is used in the Indian Arjun tank, however this one is likely not possible to employ with an auto-loader. Each round has its individual container, this way even if one round is hit and explodes, it doesn’t damage the other ones.​

While the Al-Khalid and VT-4 employ some means to prevent ammo explosions, there are no such steps taken in Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, T80UD and T72, (T90S is not much better off, but it does employ some stuff like fire suppression systems) all of these are highly susceptible to ammo cook off and catastrophic explosions, which almost always result in the entire crew being knocked out. 

Bottom line is, the only way to truly prevent these is to use completely isolated ammo with blast doors or to use hard kill active protection systems or a combination of both. Something both india and Pakistan are a fair few years off from deploying.

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## alimobin memon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Russian origin tanks explode like that because any penetration that impacts the ammo stored in their carousel auto-loaders or elsewhere in the hull and turret of the vehicle blows up the tank, if you’ve seen Russian origin tanks with their turrets blown clean off, it’s because of this, and yes, it’s fairly common.
> 
> Although The carousel is not well protected in T72 and T90S models, it is still hard to hit because it sits in the lower center of the tank, however the rest of the ammo that’s scattered around in the hull and turret is very easily damaged and is what often causes the cook-off and resulting explosion (though the carousels have known to explode too at times)
> 
> Russians have taken measures to fix this in later T90M models where the carousel has additional armor and the extra ammo (the reloads not carried in the carousel) have been moved to an isolated compartment in the rear of the turret, which has blowout panels, making it less likely for later T90M models to suffer the same fate as their older counterparts.
> 
> This does not occur much in western tanks (though they’re definitely not immune to it) because they have manual loaders, they have made their tanks significantly bigger in order to make separate, isolated ammo storage compartments with blowout panels that ensure that even if a tank is penetrated, the ammo is safe, and if the ammo is hit, the blowout panels ensure that the crew does not get injured. Complete Ammo isolation also possible in tanks with auto-loaders, as seen in the T-14 and the Japanese MBTs using a bustle style auto-loaders that store ammo at the rear of the turret and only open it for reloading, instead of a carousel style auto-loader. However that does make the tank significantly more complex and hence wasn’t used in older designs like the T72, T90 etc.
> 
> Chinese tanks use the exact same auto-loaders as Russian tanks, namely the ones from T72 and T90S, so they will definitely have this same problem, but it may not be as common as it is in the Russian tanks; because while the best option is to isolate the ammo as I stated above, there are other precautions that can be taken to reduce the risk of ammo cook off, some of these are;
> 
> 1. Armored carousels as employed in the T90M, may also possibly be employed in VT-4 and ZTZ-99 but is unknown.
> 2. Armored storage bins for ammo reloads, this is employed in Al-Khalid and VT-4, while the ammo outside the carousel isn’t completely isolated from the Crew, it’s put in armored storage bins in the crew compartment, these storages are also lined with Kevlar to prevent spalling and fragments. Each ammo bin has its own explosion and fire suppression system that can detect a fire and go off in milliseconds in order to reduce the risk of ammo cook off.
> In the Al-Khalid there’s two such storages, one at the rear of the turret and one on the side of the turret. These hold half the ammo reloads of the Al-Khalid, the other half is stored in a completely isolated compartment between the engine and crew compartment, it doesn’t have blow off panels, but it also has a similar explosion and fire suppression system. VT-4 employs a similar ammo storage strategy.
> The issue with both these tanks is their extremely poor side armor, if any AT munition strikes the sides of these tanks, it will easily go through and poses a high risk of hitting ammo inside the tank and causing a catastrophic explosion. Indian T72 and T90S also have this side armor issue, but it’s not as bad as in the Pakistani tanks (however both of those have absolutely no ammo protection so they’re likely still worst off than the Pakistani tanks in regards to ammo cook-off).
> 3. Canisterised ammo, this is used in the Indian Arjun tank, however this one is likely not possible to employ with an auto-loader. Each round has its individual container, this way even if one round is hit and explodes, it doesn’t damage the other ones.​
> 
> While the Al-Khalid and VT-4 employ some means to prevent ammo explosions, there are no such steps taken in Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, T80UD and T72, (T90S is not much better off, but it does employ some stuff like fire suppression systems) all of these are highly susceptible to ammo cook off and catastrophic explosions, which almost always result in the entire crew being knocked out.
> 
> Bottom line is, the only way to truly prevent these is to use completely isolated ammo with blast doors or to use hard kill active protection systems or a combination of both. Something both india and Pakistan are a fair few years off from deploying.


Thanks for detailed info. Much appreciated. One more question you specifically mentioned weak side armor of Pakistani tanks, how weak is it ? compared to t90S ?


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## iLION12345_1

alimobin memon said:


> Thanks for detailed info. Much appreciated. One more question you specifically mentioned weak side armor of Pakistani tanks, how weak is it ? compared to t90S ?


I’ll have to explain a few things to explain that. 

First of all, tanks have the thickest armor at the front, and they have a thing called the frontal armor arc. basically, tanks designers design tank turrets and hulls in such a way that the thickest armor doesn’t just cover the narrow front of the tank but also extends a certain amount to the side of the tank. Notice in this image of a T90S turret how the front of the turret is not flat but angled so the frontal armor arc extends on each side of the tank. This design feature is present in both the T72 and the T90S as well as the T80UD, meanwhile the Al-Khalid and the VT-4 have a nearly flat turret front, meaning it’s armor is only at the front with the entire side of the turret vulnerable to enemy fire, this is somewhat remedied by adding ERA to the turret side as the Al-Khalid and VT-4 do, but Al-Khalid has older ERA so this isn’t going to help it that much, VT-4 at least has much better ERA with better coverage on the side of the turret, but this design flaw is still there. Arjun has these design flaws too. 
.








A similar strategy is applied to tank hulls, where the first 1/3rd or 1/4th of the tanks side may have thicker armor than the rest. Or may have some sort of additional armor like ERA on the side of the tank. While no tank in South Asia has proper side hull armor for the entire tank, The T90S and the T80UD at least employ additional armor or ERA on the first 1/3rd of the tanks side. Al-Khalid and VT-4 have just their normal hull armor on the entire side of the tank, which is not that thick at all and is a massive weak spot. This is also surprising because Al-Khalid was initially deployed with similar 1/3rd armor coverage as T80UD and was even tested with a full side armor kit, but neither was ever put into service. 
This image shows why having that 1/3rd side armor can be very useful, although it is an outdated example as it’s using a WW2 tank with no sloping armor, But disregard that for this example. 







So what I mean to say is, that while Pakistani/Chinese tanks have armor that may be as effective, if not more, than the Indian/Russian counterparts, their design is very poor, with all of this armor being focused on the front of the tanks and no emphasis given to side armor, this is especially inexcusable in the case of the VT-4 which has the thickest front armor of any tank in the region and should have proper armor covering its entire side like T90MS or other modern tanks but has only thin steel on its side.

In short: from the front, modern Pakistani tanks are generally better protected than modern Indian ones (only talking about 3rd Gen stuff here), but Indian ones have better side armor simply due to their better russian design philosophy, however they’re not ahead not by much because of their age. 

Indian tanks employ much poorer ammo when compared to Pakistani tanks, so they’ll have a hard time penetrating Pakistani armor in general, While PA tanks don’t have this issue. However the most prevalent threats to armor these days aren’t other tanks, it’s infantry, and that’s where side armor is important. IA employs a lot of modern ATGMs and AT weapons that will be very deadly to PA tanks if they can get a shot at the side.

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## Allan Kaplan

Al-Khalid MBT
*Type*Main battle tank
*Place of origin* China
*Service historyIn service* 2001 – present*Used by
Production historyDesigner*Norinco
*Designed* 1993–1999
*Manufacturer*Norinco (MBT-2000, Type 96-IIM)
Heavy Industries Taxila (Al Khalid
)*Unit cost* $4.7 million – $5.8 million USD in 2011
*Produced* 2001 – present
Al-Khalid is better than MBT Arjun as compare to it (in term of cost, speed,repair and many things) , but in some field MBT Arjun is better than Al-Khalid (like 1400 hp engine, etc) My point of view Al-Khalid is better since both are 3rd generation,almost identical,but cheaper.
India and Pakistan are both third world countries that try to harbor military that would match the capabilities of highly developed nations. Third world economy, as well as politics means that neither of the two tanks are completely indigenous from the screws and bolts up to the bullets being used. Initially more than 50% of parts used in Arjun tank were imported from abroad. As time went by, local Indian companies began to provide spares and parts and presently Arjun still runs on an engine that is provided by German company MTU. Similarly its suspension is still supplied by RENK which is also a German company.

It was pitched against Russian T-90s and performed favorably. In 2012 Indian army chose to order T-90 tanks instead of its own Arjun and then it repeated another order of T-90s in 2016. It was finding it hard to secure a place in the country of its own origin. Recent comments from Indian sources reveal that it will be the T-90 tank that will form the backbone and mainstay of Indian armor and not the Arjun.

Similarly, Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine
, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine. Unlike the Indian tank which is only used by India and that also in limited quantity, Khalid tank is presently in use by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Morocco. Tests have also been done by other nations. In short, on paper they are both the same and if we were to compare them in singular capacity, matching specs with specs then they may not hold any significant edge over the other. In reality Khalid is presently in use by a greater number of nations. It would be similar to KIA vs HONDA comparison. You can compare specs and on paper they may look the same but even in Honda presently has the greater global market.

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## iLION12345_1

Allan Kaplan said:


> Al-Khalid MBT
> *Type*Main battle tank
> *Place of origin* China
> *Service historyIn service* 2001 – present*Used by*
> *Production historyDesigner*Norinco
> *Designed* 1993–1999
> *Manufacturer*Norinco (MBT-2000, Type 96-IIM)
> Heavy Industries Taxila (Al Khalid
> )*Unit cost* $4.7 million – $5.8 million USD in 2011
> *Produced* 2001 – present
> Al-Khalid is better than MBT Arjun as compare to it (in term of cost, speed,repair and many things) , but in some field MBT Arjun is better than Al-Khalid (like 1400 hp engine, etc) My point of view Al-Khalid is better since both are 3rd generation,almost identical,but cheaper.
> India and Pakistan are both third world countries that try to harbor military that would match the capabilities of highly developed nations. Third world economy, as well as politics means that neither of the two tanks are completely indigenous from the screws and bolts up to the bullets being used. Initially more than 50% of parts used in Arjun tank were imported from abroad. As time went by, local Indian companies began to provide spares and parts and presently Arjun still runs on an engine that is provided by German company MTU. Similarly its suspension is still supplied by RENK which is also a German company.
> 
> It was pitched against Russian T-90s and performed favorably. In 2012 Indian army chose to order T-90 tanks instead of its own Arjun and then it repeated another order of T-90s in 2016. It was finding it hard to secure a place in the country of its own origin. Recent comments from Indian sources reveal that it will be the T-90 tank that will form the backbone and mainstay of Indian armor and not the Arjun.
> 
> Similarly, Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine
> , designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine. Unlike the Indian tank which is only used by India and that also in limited quantity, Khalid tank is presently in use by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Morocco. Tests have also been done by other nations. In short, on paper they are both the same and if we were to compare them in singular capacity, matching specs with specs then they may not hold any significant edge over the other. In reality Khalid is presently in use by a greater number of nations. It would be similar to KIA vs HONDA comparison. You can compare specs and on paper they may look the same but even in Honda presently has the greater global market.


Oh my, where do I begin with this.…

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## DeusExAstra

Found this in Weibo, any ideas?


Spoiler












Description says about "leaked Al Khalid II" (if machine translation from Chinese was correct)

In my opinion, it looks just about usual AK


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## RAMPAGE

DeusExAstra said:


> Found this in Weibo, any ideas?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 829454
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Description says about "leaked Al Khalid II" (if machine translation from Chinese was correct)
> 
> In my opinion, it looks just about usual AK


Typo?


----------



## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Found this in Weibo, any ideas?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 829454
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Description says about "leaked Al Khalid II" (if machine translation from Chinese was correct)
> 
> In my opinion, it looks just about usual AK


Too grainy to tell really but it does look like a normal AK. It’s the figures on the left the are interesting.

No variant of the Al Khalid so far has reached or crossed the 50 ton mark (unless we consider short tons), Especially not without ERA and APS. How come it lists two different sizes for the hull and two different P/W ratios as well. I know that Al Khalid’s total length is 10.06 meters, but I can’t recall if that’s including the gun or not. Maybe these figures and the document are from the original production time of the Al Khalid as they may have Been experimenting with different stuff then.


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## DeusExAstra

RAMPAGE said:


> Typo?


May be, but there was statement about new AK mod (I mean, it does not necessarily be called just "Al Khalid-II")



iLION12345_1 said:


> Too grainy to tell really but it does look like a normal AK. It’s the figures on the left the are interesting.
> 
> No variant of the Al Khalid so far has reached or crossed the 50 ton mark (unless we consider short tons), Especially not without ERA and APS. How come it lists two different sizes for the hull and two different P/W ratios as well. I know that Al Khalid’s total length is 10.06 meters, but I can’t recall if that’s including the gun or not. Maybe these figures and the document are from the original production time of the Al Khalid as they may have Been experimenting with different stuff then.



May be. My guess is it could be easilly reached by adding additional armor plates ~20-40mm in air gaps in turret and hull armor packages to increase base protection. 

Interestingly, in the configuration with block b it has 28 hp/t, so it should be at least 1400 hp engine (1400/50). Looks a bit closer to 12V150 series engines for VT-4

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’ll have to explain a few things to explain that.
> 
> First of all, tanks have the thickest armor at the front, and they have a thing called the frontal armor arc. basically, tanks designers design tank turrets and hulls in such a way that the thickest armor doesn’t just cover the narrow front of the tank but also extends a certain amount to the side of the tank. Notice in this image of a T90S turret how the front of the turret is not flat but angled so the frontal armor arc extends on each side of the tank. This design feature is present in both the T72 and the T90S as well as the T80UD, meanwhile the Al-Khalid and the VT-4 have a nearly flat turret front, meaning it’s armor is only at the front with the entire side of the turret vulnerable to enemy fire, this is somewhat remedied by adding ERA to the turret side as the Al-Khalid and VT-4 do, but Al-Khalid has older ERA so this isn’t going to help it that much, VT-4 at least has much better ERA with better coverage on the side of the turret, but this design flaw is still there. Arjun has these design flaws too.
> .
> View attachment 828661
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A similar strategy is applied to tank hulls, where the first 1/3rd or 1/4th of the tanks side may have thicker armor than the rest. Or may have some sort of additional armor like ERA on the side of the tank. While no tank in South Asia has proper side hull armor for the entire tank, The T90S and the T80UD at least employ additional armor or ERA on the first 1/3rd of the tanks side. Al-Khalid and VT-4 have just their normal hull armor on the entire side of the tank, which is not that thick at all and is a massive weak spot. This is also surprising because Al-Khalid was initially deployed with similar 1/3rd armor coverage as T80UD and was even tested with a full side armor kit, but neither was ever put into service.
> This image shows why having that 1/3rd side armor can be very useful, although it is an outdated example as it’s using a WW2 tank with no sloping armor, But disregard that for this example.
> View attachment 828668
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what I mean to say is, that while Pakistani/Chinese tanks have armor that may be as effective, if not more, than the Indian/Russian counterparts, their design is very poor, with all of this armor being focused on the front of the tanks and no emphasis given to side armor, this is especially inexcusable in the case of the VT-4 which has the thickest front armor of any tank in the region and should have proper armor covering its entire side like T90MS or other modern tanks but has only thin steel on its side.
> 
> In short: from the front, modern Pakistani tanks are generally better protected than modern Indian ones (only talking about 3rd Gen stuff here), but Indian ones have better side armor simply due to their better russian design philosophy, however they’re not ahead not by much because of their age.
> 
> Indian tanks employ much poorer ammo when compared to Pakistani tanks, so they’ll have a hard time penetrating Pakistani armor in general, While PA tanks don’t have this issue. However the most prevalent threats to armor these days aren’t other tanks, it’s infantry, and that’s where side armor is important. IA employs a lot of modern ATGMs and AT weapons that will be very deadly to PA tanks if they can get a shot at the side.


So why we dont want fix this design issue at all, why cant it be fixed in al Khalid up coming version



DeusExAstra said:


> May be, but there was statement about new AK mod (I mean, it does not necessarily be called just "Al Khalid-II")
> 
> 
> 
> May be. My guess is it could be easilly reached by adding additional armor plates ~20-40mm in air gaps in turret and hull armor packages to increase base protection.
> 
> Interestingly, in the configuration with block b it has 28 hp/t, so it should be at least 1400 hp engine (1400/50). Looks a bit closer to 12V150 series engines for VT-4


There is another project name as Al haider, few says its link to VT4 induction but can be another design tank program advance then Al khalids


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> So why we dont want fix this design issue at all, why cant it be fixed in al Khalid up coming version
> 
> 
> There is another project name as Al haider, few says its link to VT4 induction but can be another design tank program advance then Al khalids


Al-Haider program doesn’t exist. It never did AFAIK.
VT-4 is technically the Al-Haider because it was PAs next tank, however they’re inducting both AK-1 and VT-4 while also working on future AK models so clearly things are different from what they were two decades ago.



Scorpiooo said:


> So why we dont want fix this design issue at all, why cant it be fixed in al Khalid up coming version


Because it’s incredibly expensive to redesign a tank, especially this massively. They’d basically need to change almost everything about the tanks design to fix this flaw, all in all, it would cost too much to justify, at that point they’re better off designing a new talk altogether. Plus it would add significant weight, something the current engine couldn’t handle. All that, plus the fact that these flaws generally present in all Chinese, Pakistani and generally Asian tanks. 
HIT have shown multiple times that they do realize this flaw and have tried to give AK a redesigned turret in the past, something they can still do in the future, however the issue with the engine is likely what’s holding them back here, that being said, The next AK seems to be getting a new and more powerful engine, so maybe theyll finally consider a redesign, However I’m not too hopeful for it. 

Most Asian tanks have poor side armor and generally poor designs because of doctrine and lack of experience, however this doesn’t make them bad tanks. PA might simply not consider these issues big enough to invest resources into them given the enemy has weaker tanks in general, so they’d rather spent the money elsewhere.


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## Dazzler

DeusExAstra said:


> Found this in Weibo, any ideas?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 829454
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Description says about "leaked Al Khalid II" (if machine translation from Chinese was correct)
> 
> In my opinion, it looks just about usual AK


Not Alkhalid. One of the prototypes of type-98. Turret and hull front gave it away.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Not Alkhalid. One of the prototypes of type-98. Turret and hull front gave it away.


Yes, This might be the tank in question.

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## DeusExAstra

About AK, is there some kind of mods classification? I mean, on some resource found this:

"The Al Khalid II 
According to the Pakistani military experts, the modernization is focused on improving the electronics and control systems, whereas the practical rate of fire is to be raised up to 9 shots per minute. Active prortection relies on the Ukrainian opto-electronic Varta blinding system, a jamming laser seeker, upgraded rangefinders and designators, plus a 3rd generation french Sage imager. According to "Pakistan Military Consortium" Usman Shabbir, the new Al Khalid integrates components of the Chinese Type 99 MBT, like the SB gun. Heavier, it has a redesigned turret and improved armour modules, new sensors, improved ammunitions, an Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and a new 1,500 hp powerpack. It is scheduled for production and also serves as a long-term modernization/upgrade programme for the Al Khalid of 1st generation."

So, here're AK, AK-I and some "AK-II", but I found only news dated ~2016-2018 years, any news about new modification with all this? Was it delayed for some reason? And what kind of mods there're should be (according to issues with 6TD-3 engines for obvious reasons), because some statements are different from source to source.


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## farooqbhai007

DeusExAstra said:


> About AK, is there some kind of mods classification? I mean, on some resource found this:
> 
> "The Al Khalid II
> According to the Pakistani military experts, the modernization is focused on improving the electronics and control systems, whereas the practical rate of fire is to be raised up to 9 shots per minute. Active prortection relies on the Ukrainian opto-electronic Varta blinding system, a jamming laser seeker, upgraded rangefinders and designators, plus a 3rd generation french Sage imager. According to "Pakistan Military Consortium" Usman Shabbir, the new Al Khalid integrates components of the Chinese Type 99 MBT, like the SB gun. Heavier, it has a redesigned turret and improved armour modules, new sensors, improved ammunitions, an Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and a new 1,500 hp powerpack. It is scheduled for production and also serves as a long-term modernization/upgrade programme for the Al Khalid of 1st generation."
> 
> So, here're AK, AK-I and some "AK-II", but I found only news dated ~2016-2018 years, any news about new modification with all this? Was it delayed for some reason? And what kind of mods there're should be (according to issues with 6TD-3 engines for obvious reasons), because some statements are different from source to source.


naming mistake the source here very likely quotes the AK-1 as AK-2 , as the Al-khalid 1 designation was only given in 2018 and before that the newer model was referred to as AK2

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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> About AK, is there some kind of mods classification? I mean, on some resource found this:
> 
> "The Al Khalid II
> According to the Pakistani military experts, the modernization is focused on improving the electronics and control systems, whereas the practical rate of fire is to be raised up to 9 shots per minute. Active prortection relies on the Ukrainian opto-electronic Varta blinding system, a jamming laser seeker, upgraded rangefinders and designators, plus a 3rd generation french Sage imager. According to "Pakistan Military Consortium" Usman Shabbir, the new Al Khalid integrates components of the Chinese Type 99 MBT, like the SB gun. Heavier, it has a redesigned turret and improved armour modules, new sensors, improved ammunitions, an Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) and a new 1,500 hp powerpack. It is scheduled for production and also serves as a long-term modernization/upgrade programme for the Al Khalid of 1st generation."
> 
> So, here're AK, AK-I and some "AK-II", but I found only news dated ~2016-2018 years, any news about new modification with all this? Was it delayed for some reason? And what kind of mods there're should be (according to issues with 6TD-3 engines for obvious reasons), because some statements are different from source to source.


Nothing concrete is known about AK-II at the moment but there are strong indications that it is getting a new RWS and a Chinese engine. Other upgrades are unknown. 

Varta was already rejected on the base model AK over a decade and will not be seen on the AK-2, or any other AK for that matter. What even is a jamming laser seeker?

The Rate of fire increase was already seen in the Al-Khalid-1 due to the new auto-loader it got. Same with the 3rd generation Thermal imager, which is the SAGEM MATIS STD. That was already present in later production Al-Khalids (base models) and all AK-1s. Neither of these are for AK-2. 

IBMS has been present in AK since it’s introduction however it will or already has seen an upgrade. 

The news about the gun, new sensors, more armor/redesign and other stuff is just Speculation as it was not seen in AK-1 and is not confirmed for AK-2. This article you quoted was likely written by someone with just surface level research and is confusing AK-1 for AK-2. 

Al-Khalid-1 already got a new FCS/GCS with new optics for both gunner and commander so I doubt it’ll see another upgrade in AK-2. 

We might see LWRs and new ERA however, and other stuff from VT-4P. I made a long post about possible AK-2 upgrades elsewhere on the forum, you can check that out.

As for delays, the entire Al-Khalid program is several years behind the original plan due to a production and development stoppage that occurred in the 2010s due to a lack of funds (war on terror). AK-1 was supposed to begin production Before 2015 but only started in 2018-19 (it was given a few more upgrades to make up for the delay). We should see the Al-Khalid 2 enter production by the time AK-1 (220x, 110x delivered, 110x in production) orders end, so around 2024-2025 hopefully.

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## DeusExAstra

farooqbhai007 said:


> naming mistake the source here very likely quotes the AK-1 as AK-2 , as the Al-khalid 1 designation was only given in 2018 and before that the newer model was referred to as AK2



Now I see, thank you!



iLION12345_1 said:


> Nothing concrete is known about AK-II at the moment but there are strong indications that it is getting a new RWS and a Chinese engine. Other upgrades are unknown.
> 
> Varta was already rejected on the base model AK over a decade and will not be seen on the AK-2, or any other AK for that matter. What even is a jamming laser seeker?
> 
> The Rate of fire increase was already seen in the Al-Khalid-1 due to the new auto-loader it got. Same with the 3rd generation Thermal imager, which is the SAGEM MATIS STD. That was already present in later production Al-Khalids (base models) and all AK-1s. Neither of these are for AK-2.
> 
> IBMS has been present in AK since it’s introduction however it will or already has seen an upgrade.
> 
> The news about the gun, new sensors, more armor/redesign and other stuff is just Speculation as it was not seen in AK-1 and is not confirmed for AK-2. This article you quoted was likely written by someone with just surface level research and is confusing AK-1 for AK-2.
> 
> Al-Khalid-1 already got a new FCS/GCS with new optics for both gunner and commander so I doubt it’ll see another upgrade in AK-2.
> 
> We might see LWRs and new ERA however, and other stuff from VT-4P. I made a long post about possible AK-2 upgrades elsewhere on the forum, you can check that out.
> 
> As for delays, the entire Al-Khalid program is several years behind the original plan due to a production and development stoppage that occurred in the 2010s due to a lack of funds (war on terror). AK-1 was supposed to begin production Before 2015 but only started in 2018-19 (it was given a few more upgrades to make up for the delay). We should see the Al-Khalid 2 enter production by the time AK-1 (220x, 110x delivered, 110x in production) orders end, so around 2024-2025 hopefully.



Yes, that's confused me in description. Now I understand, thank you!

P. S. As far as I understand, autoloader was enlarged on AK-1 to use more powerful APFSDS? Or it's about "solid state autoloader" construction?


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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Now I see, thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's confused me in description. Now I understand, thank you!
> 
> P. S. As far as I understand, autoloader was enlarged on AK-1 to use more powerful APFSDS? Or it's about "solid state autoloader" construction?


Auto-loader was not enlarged as far as I’m aware. It doesn’t need a larger auto-loader. The T72 style auto-loader present in the original AK is capable of holding ammunition up-to BTA-4 APFSDS that Pakistan recently got with its VT-4s. And I assume the newer auto-loader has the exact same dimensions, it’s just the solid-state construction for increased reliability and speed as well as digital displays and panels to make it easier to use. 

As it stands Pakistan doesn’t have access to longer ammunition Nor does it need it, the BTA-4 purchased recently is likely going to be PAs main APFSDS for quite some time to come, so I don’t think they’d actively pursue an auto-loader that can accommodate bigger ammunition. 

The T72 style auto-loader in T72, T90A/S, Al-Khalid, ZTZ-96, VT-4 etc can accommodate ammunition with a maximum length of 680MM. BTA-4 is exactly 680MM so it’s taking up all the available space, if they want to go even longer, they’d need new auto-loaders, I’m not sure if the auto-loaders in AK-1 and VT-4 can accommodate longer ammo, but I don’t think they can, the dimensions are probably the same as the originals.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> Auto-loader was not enlarged as far as I’m aware. It doesn’t need a larger auto-loader. The T72 style auto-loader present in the original AK is capable of holding ammunition up-to BTA-4 APFSDS that Pakistan recently got with its VT-4s. And I assume the newer auto-loader has the exact same dimensions, it’s just the solid-state construction for increased reliability and speed as well as digital displays and panels to make it easier to use.
> 
> As it stands Pakistan doesn’t have access to longer ammunition Nor does it need it, the BTA-4 purchased recently is likely going to be PAs main APFSDS for quite some time to come, so I don’t think they’d actively pursue an auto-loader that can accommodate bigger ammunition.
> 
> The T72 style auto-loader in T72, T90A/S, Al-Khalid, ZTZ-96, VT-4 etc can accommodate ammunition with a maximum length of 680MM. BTA-4 is exactly 680MM so it’s taking up all the available space, if they want to go even longer, they’d need new auto-loaders, I’m not sure if the auto-loaders in AK-1 and VT-4 can accommodate longer ammo, but I don’t think they can, the dimensions are probably the same as the originals.


So, it's up to reload speed mainly.
BTA-4 is a good round with it's 300/60 degrees at 2 km, may be Chinese will provide some "export" DTC10-125 (If it's muzzle velocity remain 1800 m/s, it should reach ~320-340mm/60 degrees at 2 km), if they wish in future.

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## Dazzler

Carousel tray is slightly larger in AK1

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## Dazzler



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## DeusExAstra

Hello! Few questions about AK-I again)

1) Recently found some video:



Spoiler: Video











It looks like this tower looks a bit different



Spoiler














Spoiler













Spoiler













Spoiler











It's some kind of a new tower used on AK? 

I mean, comparing to known AK photos,



Spoiler











There're some difference between them, especially if we look at back of the turret 🧐



2) And the second question is about AK-I production cost, is there a reliable sources about that? I mean, judging by some EU/US/RU sources, there's difference betweet cost data, so, what cost is more realistic?


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## HRK

DeusExAstra said:


> It looks like this tower looks a bit different


turret shown in the video on rotating table is placed upside down


DeusExAstra said:


> 2) And the second question is about AK-I production cost, is there a reliable sources about that? I mean, judging by some EU/US/RU sources, there's difference betweet cost data, so, what cost is more realistic?


HIT official never gave any exact figure of AK series sales price but number of times stated that its 1/3 of the price of western tanks.

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## DeusExAstra

HRK said:


> turret shown in the video on rotating table is placed upside down
> 
> HIT official never gave any exact figure of AK series sales price but number of times stated that its 1/3 of the price of western tanks.


Thank you!

So, it's only because of view on turret? But what about turret back basket, it looks a bit different?

And about price, I guess, it's 1/3 of the price tanks like 2A6/M1A2?


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## HRK

DeusExAstra said:


> And about price, I guess, it's 1/3 of the price tanks like 2A6/M1A2?


no tank was specifically mention they always use the term western tanks

One educated guess could be made by the purchase of VT-4 by Pakistan which I think was bought at price tag of $5+ million (I am forgetting the exact figure of the purchase price which was b/w *$5.3-5.5 million*) but AK-1 supposedly cost less to PA than VT-4 keep in mind I am talking about manufacturing cost not the sales price to international customers.


DeusExAstra said:


> So, it's only because of view on turret? But what about turret back basket, it looks a bit different?


Yaap only because of the view of the upside down FRONT of the turret.






as far as back of the turret is concern its the same as previous version of the turret. One more thing is that turret of AK series from the front create the illusion of square shape but form the side view one can observe that back of the turret is angled same as previous version

Following is the pic of latest AK-1 being tested at HIT factory

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## HRK

Aerial View of AK-1

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## DeusExAstra

HRK said:


> no tank was specifically mention they always use the term western tant,
> 
> One educated guess could be made by the purchase of VT-4 by Pakistan which I think was $5+ (I am forgetting the exact figure of the purchase price which was b/w *$5.3-5.5 million*) but AK-1 supposedly cost less to PA than VT-4 keep in mind I am talking about manufacturing cost not sales price to international customers.
> 
> Yaap only because of the view of the upside down FRONT of the turret.
> 
> View attachment 858786
> 
> 
> as far as back of the turret is concern its the same as previous version of the turret. One more thing is that turret of AK series from the front create the illusion of square shape but form the side view one can observe that back of the turret is angled same as previous version
> 
> Following is the pic of latest AK-1 being tested at HIT factory
> 
> View attachment 858784



Thanks for the clarification!

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## Iron Shrappenel

I wonder how PA is going to react to the Engine problems
... Now that we know Russo-Ukraine war isn't going anywhere soon... What are we going to do about the engine supplies let alone making more AK-1s ????

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan did not put any good defensive system like trophy and ERI to Al Khalid for protection only focus on powerful gun

We need good ERA trophy system



HRK said:


> Aerial View of AK-1
> 
> View attachment 858788


No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches



HRK said:


> Aerial View of AK-1
> 
> View attachment 858788


No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches


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## Signalian

Super Falcon said:


> No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches


How much thickness of armor would be required to stop Hellfire penetration, whats your take ?

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## HRK

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan did not put any good defensive system like trophy and ERI to Al Khalid for protection only focus on powerful gun
> 
> We need good ERA trophy system
> 
> 
> No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches
> 
> 
> No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches



bro just a little reminder this thread is is an Information pool about AK series so only post info about the tank if you want to share your opinion then plz use other relevant thread.

BTW just want mention that this query is addressed number of times by many inform members on relevant thread


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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> Hello! Few questions about AK-I again)
> 
> 1) Recently found some video:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like this tower looks a bit different
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 858552
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 858553
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 858554
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 858556
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's some kind of a new tower used on AK?
> 
> I mean, comparing to known AK photos,
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 858558
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There're some difference between them, especially if we look at back of the turret 🧐
> 
> 
> 
> 2) And the second question is about AK-I production cost, is there a reliable sources about that? I mean, judging by some EU/US/RU sources, there's difference betweet cost data, so, what cost is more realistic?


The turret looks different to me too but could possibly also just be the angle and the orientation of the turret. The video is over a year old, but it could still possibly be something they were considering for Future AK or still are, but slim chance. 

as for cost, if I had to take a guess, somewhere around 3 Million for the AK-1, possibly less, depends on how many parts they’re still importing that we don’t know of, but that’s just a guess, price has not been revealed.



Iron Shrappenel said:


> I wonder how PA is going to react to the Engine problems
> ... Now that we know Russo-Ukraine war isn't going anywhere soon... What are we going to do about the engine supplies let alone making more AK-1s ????


We have enough engines and transmissions in stock to finish the current order of AK-1s. There are no other Russian or Ukrainian sourced components on the tank, after that they’re switching to Chinese engines. Chinese engines for future batches of AK have already been ordered and delivered, probably for testing purposes.



Signalian said:


> How much thickness of armor would be required to stop Hellfire penetration, whats your take ?


Too much to be realistic. An APS that can deal with top-attack munitions like the trophy or arena is the only bet (even Arena is uncertain for top attack)l



Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan did not put any good defensive system like trophy and ERI to Al Khalid for protection only focus on powerful gun
> 
> We need good ERA trophy system
> 
> 
> No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches
> 
> 
> No protective armour it's sitting suck for indian apaches


Kindly try to read through the information pool before making uninformed comments.

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## Signalian

iLION12345_1 said:


> Too much to be realistic. An APS that can deal with top-attack munitions like the trophy or arena is the only bet (even Arena is uncertain for top attack)l


Thats an active protective system. I dont think that armor thickness can be the solution.


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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> Thats an active protective system. I dont think that armor thickness can be the solution.


Yes, that’s what I said too, the armor needed to stop a top attack munition would be beyond unrealistic, the only way to stop them is an active protection system.


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## Signalian

20 years ago, it became a passion to join 31 Cav 😁


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## Raja Porus

Thee first Alkhalid regt of PA.


Signalian said:


> 20 years ago, it became a passion to join 31 Cav 😁

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## Dazzler

HRK said:


> turret shown in the video on rotating table is placed upside down
> 
> HIT official never gave any exact figure of AK series sales price but number of times stated that its 1/3 of the price of western tanks.


Ak = 3000000 USD for PA
Ak1 = 3500000 USD for PA

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## Inception-06



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## farooqbhai007

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873630


AK1 with FY4 mockup

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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> AK1 with FY4 mockup


FY-4 has been expected for AK-1 for a while, this mock-up confirms it. 
This will likely be paired with a new Chinese engine and transmission (same one from VT-4) as the FY-4 will cause a considerable weight increase (also Ukraine cannot supply engines anymore). This AK-1 might even be equipped with said power train already, since the new engines were delivered over a year ago now.

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## Inception-06

iLION12345_1 said:


> FY-4 has been expected for AK-1 for a while, this mock-up confirms it.
> This will likely be paired with a new Chinese engine and transmission (same one from VT-4) as the FY-4 will cause a considerable weight increase (also Ukraine cannot supply engines anymore). This AK-1 might even be equipped with said power train already, since the new engines were delivered over a year ago now.



Stripped down T-85IIM (AP)

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> Stripped down T-85IIM (AP)
> View attachment 873749
> View attachment 873750


I’ve seen these. Just note that Type 85IIM isn’t an actual designation, it’s Type-85IIAP and Type 85-UG.

And these photos are pretty interesting, because we were able to determine from them that the Type 85UGs might possibly be getting armored upgrades, at least for the turret, since the turret shape in the second picture suggests that the UGs have been upgraded to the Composite package for the AK instead of their original one.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’ve seen these. Just note that Type 85IIM isn’t an actual designation, it’s Type-85IIAP and Type 85-UG.
> 
> And these photos are pretty interesting, because we were able to determine from them that the Type 85UGs might possibly be getting armored upgrades, at least for the turret, since the turret shape in the second picture suggests that the UGs have been upgraded to the Composite package for the AK instead of their original one.


If there're no weight and space restrictions, it could easilly be upgared up to third generation of special armor by adding additional steel plates about ~30-40mm thickness.

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## iLION12345_1

DeusExAstra said:


> If there're no weight and space restrictions, it could easilly be upgared up to third generation of special armor by adding additional steel plates about ~30-40mm thickness.


The shape of the turret in the second picture is similar to AK turret shape, Type 85-IIAP has less of a curvature, so I assume they did get the additional steel plates as in AK.

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## Inception-06

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’ve seen these. Just note that Type 85IIM isn’t an actual designation, it’s Type-85IIAP and Type 85-UG.
> 
> And these photos are pretty interesting, because we were able to determine from them that the Type 85UGs might possibly be getting armored upgrades, at least for the turret, since the turret shape in the second picture suggests that the UGs have been upgraded to the Composite package for the AK instead of their original one.

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## newcomerdesigner

Assalam-O-Aliakum
i am working on AL-KHALID 1 simulator.
can anyone provide some help? please!


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## Inception-06

newcomerdesigner said:


> Assalam-O-Aliakum
> i am working on AL-KHALID 1 simulator.
> can anyone provide some help? please!



Just ask you will get answers which are legally found in publication.

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 873865
> View attachment 873866
> View attachment 873867
> View attachment 873868
> View attachment 873869


Have seen them all, was one of our first glimpses into AK/UG composite package, it’s just a ton of steel at least in that picture, I’m sure there’s other materials to go on top that they don’t show. Some may say it’s a little crude but it’s definitely very effective.



newcomerdesigner said:


> Assalam-O-Aliakum
> i am working on AL-KHALID 1 simulator.
> can anyone provide some help? please!


What exactly do you need?

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## Super Falcon

I don't agree with 1200 same Ho engine better we used on these Al Khalid a new 1590 ho engine to carry heavy equipment


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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> I don't agree with 1200 same Ho engine better we used on these Al Khalid a new 1590 ho engine to carry heavy equipment


Please keep your trash out of this thread. Thank you.

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## Super Falcon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Please keep your trash out of this thread. Thank you.


If you don't like don't look and plz next time if you can't do anything good stay away is a best yeh forum na Meri na Teri jageer ha nahi dakhni mat dekho

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## Super Falcon

For me ERA has no advantage we seen what happened to ERA Iin Ukraine a total failure Israel don't use them better go for new active protection system

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561050276852912130

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## Signalian

57 Cavalry, 25th MID.

AK,AK1s usually in south.

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## Super Falcon

For me ERA has no advantage we seen what happened to ERA Iin Ukraine a total failure Israel don't use them better go for new active protection system


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 876991
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 876992
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 876993
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561050276852912130


Jangla on the tank to mount era plates what a rubbish idea I'm not a fan of ERA Armour they never worked in wars syria Iraq Ukraine lessons should be learn

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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> For me ERA has no advantage we seen what happened to ERA Iin Ukraine a total failure Israel don't use them better go for new active protection system
> 
> Jangla on the tank to mount era plates what a rubbish idea I'm not a fan of ERA Armour they never worked in wars syria Iraq Ukraine lessons should be learn





Super Falcon said:


> For me ERA has no advantage we seen what happened to ERA Iin Ukraine a total failure Israel don't use them better go for new active protection system





Super Falcon said:


> If you don't like don't look and plz next time if you can't do anything good stay away is a best yeh forum na Meri na Teri jageer ha nahi dakhni mat dekho


Refer to my last post on this thread.


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## Metal 0-1

Super Falcon said:


> For me ERA has no advantage we seen what happened to ERA Iin Ukraine a total failure Israel don't use them better go for new active protection system


Do you want HIT to redesign and remake tanks in Uranium Depleted armour. 

Active protection doesn't mean tank is invincible. How you gonna protect yourself against top down attack.

Also Merkava is infantry support tank not a intended to go head to head against other tanks

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## PakFactor

Metal 0-1 said:


> Do you want HIT to redesign and remake tanks in Uranium Depleted armour.
> 
> Active protection doesn't mean tank is invincible. How you gonna protect yourself against top down attack.
> 
> Also Merkava is infantry support tank not a intended to go head to head against other tanks



I would have expected HIT to already use depleted uranium for armor plating on the base level before ERAs. However, the Challenger and other modern tanks use composites (possibly even DU plating), so as you can see, we are already not thinking ahead.

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## Mrc

PakFactor said:


> I would have expected HIT to already use depleted uranium for armor plating on the base level before ERAs. However, the Challenger and other modern tanks use composites (possibly even DU plating), so as you can see, we are already not thinking ahead.




Era keeps weight down . That's why non era tanks are like 60 plus tonnes and era ones are around 50 . Lighter is more suited for Indo pak terrain
Modern era will give good protection the Russian ones were not updated ...

There are some videos though of t 90s taking multiple hits and tactics and training of crew also matters alot

And who says Al Khalid does not have composites?


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## iLION12345_1

Mrc said:


> Era keeps weight down . That's why non era tanks are like 60 plus tonnes and era ones are around 50 . Lighter is more suited for Indo pak terrain
> Modern era will give good protection the Russian ones were not updated ...
> 
> There are some videos though of t 90s taking multiple hits and tactics and training of crew also matters alot
> 
> And who says Al Khalid does not have composites?


He doesn’t know the first thing about tanks, ignore him.

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## DeusExAstra

DU armor is pointless, for now. I mean, Uranium Matrixes is just one of many ways to get better KE/CE protection, you don't need it to make better armor packages)


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## Super Falcon

Metal 0-1 said:


> Do you want HIT to redesign and remake tanks in Uranium Depleted armour.
> 
> Active protection doesn't mean tank is invincible. How you gonna protect yourself against top down attack.
> 
> Also Merkava is infantry support tank not a intended to go head to head against other tanks


I'm saying build least tanks with better armour engines and trophy type system which provides protection of 360 degrees and top attack protection too

If required depleted armour yes but build tanks in less numbers give them a all round better survival as bilit to and few jammers too t ok jam enemy launchers tracking and lock on



Super Falcon said:


> I'm saying build least tanks with better armour engines and trophy type system which provides protection of 360 degrees and top attack protection too
> 
> If required depleted armour yes but build tanks in less numbers give them a all round better survival as bilit to and few jammers too t ok jam enemy launchers tracking and lock on


Get quality over numbers


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## Super Falcon

Al Khalid don't have any side skirt back or frontal protection only two plates of ERA on main gun turet that it it's a pathetic selection not getting enough armour even RPG can take them down with few hits

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## Phantom.

iLION12345_1 said:


> He doesn’t know the first thing about tanks, ignore him.


Yeah ERA has worked in Ukraine here is a picture of T-72B3M with 4S24 Block found the pic in telegram iirc it's from late may and around izyum the RU channel which posted it claimed it was an ATGM which could be true if it's an older ATGM or depending on the angle it was hit it irrc Ni stalli Claimed 4S24 Block was capable of providing 500mm of protection against RPG rounds but in most testing only a single block exploded while here 3 are gone the Russians are even adding ERA on BTR-82s they are attaching metal plates with K-1 it does look dumb but if it gets the job done all good.






Metal 0-1 said:


> How you gonna protect yourself against top down attack.


Top attack ATGMs can be countered by systems like Trophy ,Zalson,AVEPS,Quick kill 2.0,Afghanit can also provide top attack protection against IR guided missiles like javelin and there are afew other APS which also provide protection against top attack and like it's always the case with almost every system they can be countered systems like RPG-30 are designed to counter APS ,Kornets can also be launched in tandem to counter APS systems although the accuracy maybe lower

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## Dazzler

Hull and turret protection has been considerably improved

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## alimobin memon

Dazzler said:


> Hull and turret protection has been considerably improved
> 
> View attachment 883394


By observing this I couldn't see the improvement. Can u please elaborate.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Hull and turret protection has been considerably improved
> 
> View attachment 883394


I’ve confirmed with HIT officials multiple times. Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 have entirely identical armor. 

Is there something in the picture that backs your statement up?

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## Dazzler

iLION12345_1 said:


> I’ve confirmed with HIT officials multiple times. Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 have entirely identical armor.
> 
> Is there something in the picture that backs your statement up?


Inserts have been optimized. Hint, type-85 composite inserts are similar.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Inserts have been optimized. Hint, type-85 composite inserts are similar.


Again. HIT has confirmed the armor is identical on Original AK and AK-1. I’d love to see or hear your sources.

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## Dazzler

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again. HIT has confirmed the armor is identical on Original AK and AK-1. I’d love to see or hear your sources.



Identical doesn't mean the same does it?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> Identical doesn't mean the same does it?

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Identical doesn't mean the same does it?


Maybe I should be asking for your dictionary before I ask for a source 😂
What does it mean then?

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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> View attachment 883780


Congratulations 🤣

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## iLION12345_1

Well I stand by what I said and what I’ve been told. AK has not received any changes to its armor or its inserts either during AKs own production run or in AK-1.

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## Dazzler

UG got improvements. I'll be surprised if ak1 didn't. 
Backplates
Nera

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> UG got improvements. I'll be surprised if ak1 didn't.
> Backplates
> Nera
> 
> View attachment 883988


UG got the some of the composite Package From AK, and that too not all of them from what it seems.
I was surprised too, but they were adamant that they had not changed the armor at all, partially due to weight constraints. 

I’ve seen composite armor packages from AK-1 in all it’s individual pieces, it looked just the same as AK. I don’t think it needs an upgrade though, in live armor testing the AKs turret without ERA could stop its own HEAT followed by its own APFSDS handily, which is impressive given how much the HEAT disturbs the chemical composition of the armor, and india doesn’t have ammo comparable to what the AK fires.

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## DeusExAstra

iLION12345_1 said:


> UG got the some of the composite Package From AK, and that too not all of them from what it seems.
> I was surprised too, but they were adamant that they had not changed the armor at all, partially due to weight constraints.
> 
> I’ve seen composite armor packages from AK-1 in all it’s individual pieces, it looked just the same as AK. I don’t think it needs an upgrade though, in live armor testing the AKs turret without ERA could stop its own HEAT followed by its own APFSDS handily, which is impressive given how much the HEAT disturbs the chemical composition of the armor, and india doesn’t have ammo comparable to what the AK fires.


What kind of APFSDS was that? 125-I, I guess? And what distance was simulated? 2 000 m as usual?


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## LeGenD

Phantom. said:


> Top attack ATGMs can be countered by systems like Trophy ,Zalson,AVEPS,Quick kill 2.0,Afghanit can also provide top attack protection against IR guided missiles like javelin and there are afew other APS which also provide protection against top attack and like it's always the case with almost every system they can be countered systems like RPG-30 are designed to counter APS ,Kornets can also be launched in tandem to counter APS systems although the accuracy maybe lower


Active Protection Systems (APS) vary in terms of capabilities.

Trophy APS intercepts for reference:






These intercepts were produced in 2011.

Trophy APS was pitted against Kornet in 2014 and defeated it just like any other:






Other solutions are more hype and less substance in comparison.

For example:









Russia Just Lost Its Most Advanced Operational Tank In Ukraine


The first confirmed loss of Russia's most advanced operational tank is another blow to the Russian Army's eroded image.




www.thedrive.com





Russian T-90M is equipped with the very best of Russian technologies including Afghanit APS* and armor protection package, but it was knocked out by an ATGM in a battle. Ukrainian forces use Stugna-P and Javelin ATGMs.

*This is true; Ukranian forces managed to capture another Russian T-90M unit in another battle and found it to be equipped with Afghanit APS.






Trophy APS offers 360 degree protection but Afghanit does not.



DeusExAstra said:


> DU armor is pointless, for now. I mean, Uranium Matrixes is just one of many ways to get better KE/CE protection, you don't need it to make better armor packages)



Depleted Uranium (DU) is about twice as dense and hard than lead and even moreso than steel in its properties. Incoming projectile(s) loose much of its energy while trying to punch through a mesh created with DU. It is not pointless but Russians wouldn't understand.


----------



## iLION12345_1

LeGenD said:


> Active Protection Systems (APS) vary in terms of capabilities.
> 
> Trophy APS intercepts for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These intercepts were produced in 2011.
> 
> Trophy APS was pitted against Kornet in 2014 and defeated it just like any other:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other solutions are more hype and less substance in comparison.
> 
> For example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia Just Lost Its Most Advanced Operational Tank In Ukraine
> 
> 
> The first confirmed loss of Russia's most advanced operational tank is another blow to the Russian Army's eroded image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian T-90M is equipped with the very best of Russian technologies including Afghanit APS* and armor protection package, but it was knocked out by an ATGM in a battle. Ukrainian forces use Stugna-P and Javelin ATGMs.
> 
> *This is true; Ukranian forces managed to capture another Russian T-90M unit in another battle and found it to be equipped with Afghanit APS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trophy APS offers 360 degree protection but Afghanit does not.
> 
> 
> 
> Depleted Uranium (DU) is about twice as dense and hard than lead and even moreso than steel in its properties. Incoming projectile(s) loose much of its energy while trying to punch through a mesh created with DU. It is not pointless but Russians wouldn't understand.


Technology is only as useful as the owner is skilled. You could exchange the entirety of the equipment of the Russian and American forces while keeping everything else the same and Russia would still be losing just as bad in Ukraine. Because they don’t know what they’re doing.

What I mean to say is, I don’t think inferior tech is what’s holding the Russians back, we all know they can make good things, but their training, logistics, strategy and morale is so hilariously poor that it does not matter.

I would wager that the US army with Russian equipment would fare far better simply because of their better training and planning.

And then again, what good was American technology in Vietnam and both Russian and American in Afghanistan?



DeusExAstra said:


> What kind of APFSDS was that? 125-I, I guess? And what distance was simulated? 2 000 m as usual?


I asked if that test was conducted with Naiza DU or 125-1, they said both, I did not ask about the distance, but I would assume either 1 or 2 KM. The trials were done with both APFSDS being fired first followed by HEAT and then the other way around.


----------



## LeGenD

iLION12345_1 said:


> Technology is only as useful as the owner is skilled. You could exchange the entirety of the equipment of the Russian and American forces while keeping everything else the same and Russia would still be losing just as bad in Ukraine. Because they don’t know what they’re doing.
> 
> What I mean to say is, I don’t think inferior tech is what’s holding the Russians back, we all know they can make good things, but their training, logistics, strategy and morale is so hilariously poor that it does not matter.
> 
> I would wager that the US army with Russian equipment would fare far better simply because of their better training and planning.
> 
> And then again, what good was American technology in Vietnam and both Russian and American in Afghanistan?



Training is definitely important but technology is crucial to fight and win BATTLES in modern warfare. Technology also helps reduce losses in BATTLES in modern warfare.

American military technology was largely mechanical in times of the Vietnam War (1965 - 1971) but much more advanced and sophisticated in times of the Persian Gulf War (1991). Respective outcome(s) are entirely different as well.

For perspective: the Dragon’s Jaw bridge located at Thanh Hoa was a high-priority target but it withstood repeated efforts to destroy it in a total of 871 sorties from both USAF and USN in several years (dumb bombs were completely ineffective). The FIRST smart bomb was put to good use by USAF in 1972. Guess the target: the Dragon's Jaw bridge in Thanh Hoa was taken out in 15 minutes in a single sortie. This mission was in connection with Operation Linebacker and brought Vietcong to the negotiation table with Americans. But Richard Nixon wanted to end the war by this time and ordered withdrawal of American troops from the region.

Iraq had prepared and fielded relatively larger and more sophisticated military machine than Vietcong in the 1970s. But Saddam Hussein did nothing to make battlefield situation difficult for Americans in 1990. The Battle of khafji was a bold move but TOO LATE for Iraq to achieve anything meaningful or buy time for political negotiations.

Military technology proved useful in Afghanistan as well. US-led forces were able to topple Afghan Taliban-led government and take over Afghanistan in 2 months, and did well in other BATTLES fought with Afghan Taliban in other times. American military losses in Afghanistan in terms of men and material are LOWEST for a long-lasting war in their history. Much lower than Pakistani military losses in connection to War on Terror as well. 

War in Afghanistan was about dismantling Al-Qaeda Network in large part. Afghan Taliban was a secondary target and the door for negotiations with them was kept open. Pakistan convinced Americans to talk with Afghan Taliban. Americans were not trying to LEVEL Afghanistan or worse.

Military technology is showing its effects in Ukraine as well. Ukranian forces were NOT EQUIPPED to fight a war with Russia on their own. Russian forces had crippled Ukranian ICT infrastructure with cyber warfare and precision strikes in the early days of the war and Ukranians were as good as BLIND for a time but Americans came to their rescue. Elon Musk provided Ukrainian forces access to his state-of-the-art STARLINK system as a substitute for loss of Ukranian ICT infrastructure and Russians could do nothing about it - they FAILED to cripple STARLINK system (no country can cripple this system to be fair). Ukranian forces continue to receive increasingly sophisticated weapon systems from NATO as well. WE can clearly see battlefield effects of Javelins, Harpoons and HIMARS in Ukraine for instance. Ukrainian forces are also BRAVE and Zelenskky administration has a sound battlefield strategy to fight a war with Russia in the present.

Russian forces have suffered greater losses in Ukraine in a span of 7 months than in 10 years in Afghanistan. Hundreds of Russian OFFICERS are *KIA* in this war. More in this post:



Russia-Ukraine War - News and Developments PART 2



Courage by itself is not sufficient. Troops need competent OFFICERS to lead them. Secondly, the sight of Russian tank tops flying around will not help Russian morale.

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## Dazzler

DeusExAstra said:


> What kind of APFSDS was that? 125-I, I guess? And what distance was simulated? 2 000 m as usual?



2500 meters. Its a SOP being followed for some time as far as i know. Here is something interesting. Two types of rounds were fired and penetrated each time. APT-1 and APT-2 (i assume 460mm and 550mm rounds). Plates appear to similar to Armox 500 HHS or better and there are multiple plates. Rounds were fired from Alzarrar.

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## CSAW

The world is moving on towards :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578907109072117760

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579045798918377473


----------



## Princeps Senatus

CSAW said:


> The world is moving on towards :
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578907109072117760
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579045798918377473


How is this relevant to the thread?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CSAW said:


> The world is moving on towards :
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578907109072117760
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579045798918377473


@iLION12345_1 what's the value of moving towards electric motors, hybrid power packs, etc? I'm just guessing, but would it help with reducing the thermal signature? Or drastically reduce the noise generated by the tank? However, if they load up on batteries, wouldn't that drastically add to the weight? So, would electric motor tanks need to be hybrid (e.g., using gas or diesel-powered power generator?) to control for such drawbacks?

Is this something the PA would consider? I.e., using diesel-electric-powered tanks, IFVs, etc?

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## CSAW

Princeps Senatus said:


> How is this relevant to the thread?


Wanted to point out the sub systems and concepts which are being adopted through this 54 Tonnes tech demonstrator, in an era where Cost heavy battle Tanks are being over whelmed by various threats in modern war theater.






AK-evolution is required .

An indirect relevance ,

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## PakFactor

LeGenD said:


> Active Protection Systems (APS) vary in terms of capabilities.
> 
> Trophy APS intercepts for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These intercepts were produced in 2011.
> 
> Trophy APS was pitted against Kornet in 2014 and defeated it just like any other:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other solutions are more hype and less substance in comparison.
> 
> For example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia Just Lost Its Most Advanced Operational Tank In Ukraine
> 
> 
> The first confirmed loss of Russia's most advanced operational tank is another blow to the Russian Army's eroded image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian T-90M is equipped with the very best of Russian technologies including Afghanit APS* and armor protection package, but it was knocked out by an ATGM in a battle. Ukrainian forces use Stugna-P and Javelin ATGMs.
> 
> *This is true; Ukranian forces managed to capture another Russian T-90M unit in another battle and found it to be equipped with Afghanit APS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trophy APS offers 360 degree protection but Afghanit does not.
> 
> 
> 
> Depleted Uranium (DU) is about twice as dense and hard than lead and even moreso than steel in its properties. Incoming projectile(s) loose much of its energy while trying to punch through a mesh created with DU. It is not pointless but Russians wouldn't understand.



None of our tanks are DU-equipped armor, and we didn’t learn the lessons from the first Gulf War of having Russian-styled tanks after seeing the Iraqis. Our tanks are nothing but meshed and welded steel. Their death traps incase a full blown conflict.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @iLION12345_1 what's the value of moving towards electric motors, hybrid power packs, etc? I'm just guessing, but would it help with reducing the thermal signature? Or drastically reduce the noise generated by the tank? However, if they load up on batteries, wouldn't that drastically add to the weight? So, would electric motor tanks need to be hybrid (e.g., using gas or diesel-powered power generator?) to control for such drawbacks?
> 
> Is this something the PA would consider? I.e., using diesel-electric-powered tanks, IFVs, etc?


It’s certainly a future possibility if not an inevitability. It’ll definitely reduce noise and heat but it’ll do much more too;

In tanks the torque output matters more than then horsepower, and low-end torque even more so. Current electric powertrains excel at acceleration and torque but not at top speed, tanks need just that, Electric motors and batteries excel at that, so mobility wise, an electric tank sounds like quite the idea.

But there are a ton of factors to consider before that. The first is size and weight, electric cars on average are considerably heavier than their ICE counterparts due to the batteries, I’m not sure how that scales to tanks but in cars the battery packs are usually in the floor. Even if the tanks engine is taken out and batteries put in there, you’d need more space to get enough to power a tank, and if they’re put below, then you also need to add armor to protect them. They would certainly have enough power to propel the tank, but in an already 60 ton Abrams, is 20 tons of additional weight feasible? What about transport?
That means a new electric tank would have to be designed from the ground up with weight reduced elsewhere.

The second problem would be range, while electric cars have great range nowadays, they absolutely suck at towing, that’s why electric trucks aren’t catching on like cars, towing something reduces a 300 mile range to a 150 mile range. Now tanks aren’t towing anything, but they’re not aerodynamic at all and the friction between a tire and a smooth road is much lower than between a track and rough sand, so that’s two more places where tanks would be losing range. How do we compensate for that? Would making a tank aerodynamic mess with its internal room and armor profile?

The third would be refueling, or rather charging. With the fastest chargers it takes about 45-60 minutes to fully charge a consumer EV. How does that scale up to tanks in battlefield conditions? we can replace a fuel truck with a charging vehicle, but how long will it take to get the machine back into action?

If you’re noticing a pattern, it’s that all these problems can be linked to consumer EVs too, more efficient and smaller batteries, faster charging all of this is being worked on to improve consumer EVs, which have indeed seen massive improvements in the last decade.

Just like with the development of car engines, tank engines improved, with the development of consumer EVs, EV tanks will start to seem more realistic too. So the bottom line is that while right now an EV tank isn’t feasible beyond a tech demonstrator (it’s certainly possible, just not feasible) 10,20,30 years down the line, it seems like a very real possibility. And just like when the tank first came into existence and the entire armies (especially logistics and field engineering) evolved with it, we will see that again. Logistics will go from fuel and spare parts to batteries and chargers, engineers will go from mechanics to electricians, the entire support system will evolve around it, so too will other armored vehicles. Let’s say the US starts inducting electric trucks to carry around its troops instead of humvees, that will already start the development of massive EV infrastructure in the military, how long before it Carries over to the rest of the vehicles? (look at GMs electric hummer, now imagine an electric military truck)

Until then, hybrid systems also seem like a good option. The APUs in tanks are already pretty powerful, one way could be to link the APU to the engine with some larger batteries to create a sort of hybrid gas-electric system. Another way is just as it’s done in cars as in the AbramsX.

As for the PA, it’s too early to say, since this technology is at least a decade off for developed countries and more so for a country like Pakistan, but again I’d say that it’s just an inevitability as fossil fuels get less available and electric powertrains get more efficient, I imagine a couple of decades down the line, militaries will be in the process of going electric.

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @iLION12345_1 what's the value of moving towards electric motors, hybrid power packs, etc? I'm just guessing, but would it help with reducing the thermal signature? Or drastically reduce the noise generated by the tank? However, if they load up on batteries, wouldn't that drastically add to the weight? So, would electric motor tanks need to be hybrid (e.g., using gas or diesel-powered power generator?) to control for such drawbacks?
> 
> Is this something the PA would consider? I.e., using diesel-electric-powered tanks, IFVs, etc?


I don't have any concrete evidence...but my guess is that it's possibly to improve torque(like drastically).

Battery tech isn't at the level yet where it can replace traditional fuel type engines for tanks.

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @iLION12345_1 what's the value of moving towards electric motors, hybrid power packs, etc? I'm just guessing, but would it help with reducing the thermal signature? Or drastically reduce the noise generated by the tank? However, if they load up on batteries, wouldn't that drastically add to the weight? So, would electric motor tanks need to be hybrid (e.g., using gas or diesel-powered power generator?) to control for such drawbacks?
> 
> Is this something the PA would consider? I.e., using diesel-electric-powered tanks, IFVs, etc?


 Fuel cell would make more sense.

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## Bossman

PakFactor said:


> None of our tanks are DU-equipped armor, and we didn’t learn the lessons from the first Gulf War of having Russian-styled tanks after seeing the Iraqis. Our tanks are nothing but meshed and welded steel. Their death traps incase a full blown conflict.


So are our enemies.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Cookie Monster said:


> I don't have any concrete evidence...but my guess is that it's possibly to improve torque(like drastically).
> 
> Battery tech isn't at the level yet where it can replace traditional fuel type engines for tanks.


Let me get a little technical here then. 

The issue with electric power currently isn’t that it cannot produce torque, it can produce plenty of torque, but it cannot produced sustained torque without losing charge quickly. In this case, batteries aren’t the problem at all, they can hold enough charge and power, the issue is that we cannot use said power efficiently enough. 

Basically in an ICE vehicle with a transmission, the low gears have higher torque, you use those to get upto speed or pull a load and then once you’re at speed you go to a higher gear which uses less fuel since you have the momentum to keep moving, you don’t need to be pulling with the same amount of torque to go at a constant speed of 70 as you did when you were accelerating from 0-70. 

In an EV there are no gears, and hence the torque and power is always instant and constant, while this greatly helps power output and acceleration, it means that wether you’re cruising at 70 or pulling from 0 you’re using nearly the same amount of torque and charge from the battery. This drains battery very very quickly when you’re pulling loads.

Now one may ask, “why not just add a gearbox to an EV?” Because then you ruin the entire point of the EVs instant torque, reduced mechanical parts. And an EV needs a motor to drive the wheels, not a gearbox, a gearbox and a motor at once isn’t as feasible as it may sound. 

So we need a system where EVs can cruise more efficiently while carrying heavier loads before we start considering them for military applications.



RAMPAGE said:


> Fuel cell would make more sense.


Elaborate.

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## Dazzler

Ak-1 driver uses TI based sight DTI instead of IIR based Codris-E which was used in the baseline AK.
DTI

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595460160297832448

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## Super Falcon

I don't see any meaningful modification on new AK 1 because if any tank goes under modification it's main purpose is to upgrades it's engines so better armour supporting systems and ammunition can be integrated in number therefore tanks weight may increase so more powerful engines will bring down the power to weight ratio which will be effected by more weight of systems

There fore non of anything done armour is very very little in front and on top of the tank which in today's war where enemy standoff liotering munitions ready to hit them any time we seen the devastation of most capable Russian tanks due to lack of armour and enemies will keep hitting that area of tank even with era they are still be penetrated Pak must put too attack armour and sides of the tanks

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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> I don't see any meaningful modification on new AK 1 because if any tank goes under modification it's main purpose is to upgrades it's engines so better armour supporting systems and ammunition can be integrated in number therefore tanks weight may increase so more powerful engines will bring down the power to weight ratio which will be effected by more weight of systems
> 
> There fore non of anything done armour is very very little in front and on top of the tank which in today's war where enemy standoff liotering munitions ready to hit them any time we seen the devastation of most capable Russian tanks due to lack of armour and enemies will keep hitting that area of tank even with era they are still be penetrated Pak must put too attack armour and sides of the tanks


“I don’t see any meaningful modification on AK-1” that’s because you know nothing about tanks (or any other defense tech for that matter) and didn’t bother to read the thread.

“If a tank goes under modification it’s main purpose is to upgrade its engine”, really? feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but how many times has the Abrams and Leopard 2s engine been upgraded since their inception? Do you know how old those tanks are and how many upgrades they’ve received? How and why do you need new engines to add weight and supporting systems? (something the AK-1 upgrade added in large amounts). Do you not think they take into account future upgrades when picking engines?

The only reason you come to these threads is to post your poorly researched and source-less YouTube videos in the hopes of clicks and views, you’ve done it time and again by making baseless claims about literally Everything and anything. Please, keep your this stuff out of the technical channels, this thread or forum is not an advertisement board, especially not for low quality stuff like this. And If you’re not going to bother to do any research at all, at least just read the thread itself before you post.

If I were you I’d delete this post, and if I were a moderator I’d delete *all* your posts. All of them are just so bad.

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## Super Falcon

iLION12345_1 said:


> “I don’t see any meaningful modification on AK-1” that’s because you know nothing about tanks (or any other defense tech for that matter) and didn’t bother to read the thread.
> 
> “If a tank goes under modification it’s main purpose is to upgrade its engine”, really? feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but how many times has the Abrams and Leopard 2s engine been upgraded since their inception? Do you know how old those tanks are and how many upgrades they’ve received? How and why do you need new engines to add weight and supporting systems? (something the AK-1 upgrade added in large amounts). Do you not think they take into account future upgrades when picking engines?
> 
> The only reason you come to these threads is to post your poorly researched and source-less YouTube videos in the hopes of clicks and views, you’ve done it time and again by making baseless claims about literally Everything and anything. Please, keep your this stuff out of the technical channels, this thread or forum is not an advertisement board, especially not for low quality stuff like this. And If you’re not going to bother to do any research at all, at least just read the thread itself before you post.
> 
> If I were you I’d delete this post, and if I were a moderator I’d delete *all* your posts. All of them are just so bad.


Why you want to follow some one else's path if some one does than you will your argument is out of logic you don't have brain just follow other type


EngineMTU MB 838 CaM 500, 10-cylinder, 37.4 litres, multi-fuel engine
830 PS (819 hp, 610 kW) at 2,200 RPM


Leopard 2


EngineMTU MB 873 Ka-501 liquid-cooled V12 twin-turbo diesel engine
1,500 PS (1,479 hp, 1,103 kW) at 2,600 rpm

Hopefully you get answer Germans already upgraded and USA upgraded Abrams X engines please go check it out

Chinese Type 90 uses 1500 ho engines also get rid of Pakistani typical mentally which to follow others don't do and research on your own to get better


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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> Why you want to follow some one else's path if some one does than you will your argument is out of logic you don't have brain just follow other type
> 
> 
> EngineMTU MB 838 CaM 500, 10-cylinder, 37.4 litres, multi-fuel engine
> 830 PS (819 hp, 610 kW) at 2,200 RPM
> 
> 
> Leopard 2
> 
> 
> EngineMTU MB 873 Ka-501 liquid-cooled V12 twin-turbo diesel engine
> 1,500 PS (1,479 hp, 1,103 kW) at 2,600 rpm
> 
> Hopefully you get answer Germans already upgraded and USA upgraded Abrams X engines please go check it out
> 
> Chinese Type 90 uses 1500 ho engines also get rid of Pakistani typical mentally which to follow others don't do and research on your own to get better


I’m extremely sorry to use worlds like these this, but just how stupid are you? The MTU MB 838 is the Lepard 1s engine, not the leopard 2. They are ENTIRELY different tanks.

The AbramsX has not been inducted into the US army at all yet. The Abrams has had no engine upgrades. Nor has the Leopard 2, nor did the Leo 1, despite multiple massive upgrade programs, simply because the engines didn’t need upgrades. 

In fact, it was the Al-Khalid that went from 6TD2 to 6TD-2E from AK to AK-1.

I myself have argued that the AK needs new engines, something that HIT is actively working on, but how does that have anything to Do with the AK-1 program not being a good upgrade program? Who said a tank needs a new engine for it to be considered an actual upgrade?

The Chinese Type 90 Does not use a 1500HP engine, because it doesn’t exist. The VT-1A (the successor to the Type 90) uses a 1200HP engine, much like the Al-Khalid. The ZTZ-99 uses a 1500HP engine, and it is a much heavier tank than the AK.

Your post basically clarified none of my problems with your original post, that you know absolutely nothing about tanks and didn’t bother to read this thread at all, otherwise you’d know all the major upgrades done as part of the AK-1 program. Now please. Stop ruining technical threads with your poor videos and posts, and don’t talk about “logic and brains” when you refuse to use both.

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## SQ8

Super Falcon said:


> I don't see any meaningful modification on new AK 1 because if any tank goes under modification it's main purpose is to upgrades it's engines so better armour supporting systems and ammunition can be integrated in number therefore tanks weight may increase so more powerful engines will bring down the power to weight ratio which will be effected by more weight of systems
> 
> There fore non of anything done armour is very very little in front and on top of the tank which in today's war where enemy standoff liotering munitions ready to hit them any time we seen the devastation of most capable Russian tanks due to lack of armour and enemies will keep hitting that area of tank even with era they are still be penetrated Pak must put too attack armour and sides of the tanks


And here is the quick plug for his own youtube channel to get the monetization going

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## Super Falcon

SQ8 said:


> And here is the quick plug for his own youtube channel to get the monetization going


Look who is talking to whom in active guy teaching to a guy who is more senior here

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## Super Falcon

Super Falcon said:


> Why you want to follow some one else's path if some one does than you will your argument is out of logic you don't have brain just follow other type
> 
> 
> EngineMTU MB 838 CaM 500, 10-cylinder, 37.4 litres, multi-fuel engine
> 830 PS (819 hp, 610 kW) at 2,200 RPM
> 
> 
> Leopard 2
> 
> 
> EngineMTU MB 873 Ka-501 liquid-cooled V12 twin-turbo diesel engine
> 1,500 PS (1,479 hp, 1,103 kW) at 2,600 rpm
> 
> Hopefully you get answer Germans already upgraded and USA upgraded Abrams X engines please go check it out
> 
> Chinese Type 90 uses 1500 ho engines also get rid of Pakistani typical mentally which to follow others don't do and research on your own to get better


These are similar older same not same is not a question

Why Germans opted a more powerfully engine in Leo 2 compare to Leo one when you design upgrade any tank for what for future needs and you are putting less powerfully engine and thinking you are using them in future with more powerfully laser range finders warning systems etc it will effect range and operational capabilities of tank

This is a simple math why don't you understand


If you have a older car and you want to upgrades it with more powerfully air conditioning LCD led lights decrease it's fuel burning you have to get a new engine to run your car for next 10 years better


But I know since you are from sub continent as I'm too people here are generally ma na mango type so expect same from you logic does not exist keep older engine and that engine won't give power to new power hungry systems if it is the case why waste money on new sub system which cannot achieve it's full capacity 

Fighter Jet with AESA radars needs more powerful engines why because if you need there TR MODULES to get best out if them you must provide required power if not they won't get full out of their TR MODULES result decrease of range 



If still you don't understand GOD is only who makes you understood

By the way if you cannot counter by logic than question in a respective manner I could given you a good reply of saying me stupid but than there was a no difference between you and me so I still choose to answer you in human manner expecting to be human not abusive

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## SQ8

Super Falcon said:


> Look who is talking to whom in active guy teaching to a guy who is more senior here


Lol
You’re entire existence is all about trying to promote your “sansanikhez khabar” youtube channel.

As for your “seniority”

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## Super Falcon

SQ8 said:


> Lol
> You’re entire existence is all about trying to promote your “sansanikhez khabar” youtube channel.
> 
> As for your “seniority”


Did it is bothering you if you have to say anything logical go ahead you are here for trolling this is why you are in active member

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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> These are similar older same not same is not a question
> 
> Why Germans opted a more powerfully engine in Leo 2 compare to Leo one when you design upgrade any tank for what for future needs and you are putting less powerfully engine and thinking you are using them in future with more powerfully laser range finders warning systems etc it will effect range and operational capabilities of tank
> 
> This is a simple math why don't you understand
> 
> 
> If you have a older car and you want to upgrades it with more powerfully air conditioning LCD led lights decrease it's fuel burning you have to get a new engine to run your car for next 10 years better
> 
> 
> But I know since you are from sub continent as I'm too people here are generally ma na mango type so expect same from you logic does not exist keep older engine and that engine won't give power to new power hungry systems if it is the case why waste money on new sub system which cannot achieve it's full capacity
> 
> Fighter Jet with AESA radars needs more powerful engines why because if you need there TR MODULES to get best out if them you must provide required power if not they won't get full out of their TR MODULES result decrease of range
> 
> 
> 
> If still you don't understand GOD is only who makes you understood
> 
> By the way if you cannot counter by logic than question in a respective manner I could given you a good reply of saying me stupid but than there was a no difference between you and me so I still choose to answer you in human manner expecting to be human not abusive


Not worth my time responding to. Sorry mate.

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## Signalian

AK and VT-4, both should be forming the backbone of PA armor regiments without upgrades that cost a leg and an arm.

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## Super Falcon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not worth my time responding to. Sorry mate.


When some one don't have any logical answer to counter argument with equally better logic is worth debating but here you were saying upgrades not needed in engine without upgrading heart of a tank or any system you can't take full capability out of it

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## syed_yusuf

I am very confused.... If we are getting Haider tank then why do we need to continue producing alkhalid ?

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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused.... If we are getting Haider tank then why do we need to continue producing alkhalid ?


I simply don’t understand why people don’t read the threads they post in to see if their questions have already been answered.


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## Dazzler

Super Falcon said:


> When some one don't have any logical answer to counter argument with equally better logic is worth debating but here you were saying upgrades not needed in engine without upgrading heart of a tank or any system you can't take full capability out of it


Mate, a humble request. Your YouTube channel is an ongoing pain, so spare us your expert opinions that are unfounded and baseless. 

For once, spare this forum.

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## Super Falcon

Dazzler said:


> Mate, a humble request. Your YouTube channel is an ongoing pain, so spare us your expert opinions that are unfounded and baseless.
> 
> For once, spare this forum.


Ok


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## Super Falcon

syed_yusuf said:


> I am very confused.... If we are getting Haider tank then why do we need to continue producing alkhalid ?


Very good question we should invest more on better Haider tanks we have T 80 also but I think due to ongoing war in Ukraine it might not been upgraded yet this is why AK did got upgrades but still you are right why exhaust our budget on old tanks better have been replacing old APC like Saad which are very very small and not comfortable to sit for crews better to get new APC IFV specially we lack



Dazzler said:


> Mate, a humble request. Your YouTube channel is an ongoing pain, so spare us your expert opinions that are unfounded and baseless.
> 
> For once, spare this forum.


You guys will soon be spared forever since I'm leaving this forum for better good of you all thanks sir


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## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> Very good question we should invest more on better Haider tanks we have T 80 also but I think due to ongoing war in Ukraine it might not been upgraded yet this is why AK did got upgrades but still you are right why exhaust our budget on old tanks better have been replacing old APC like Saad which are very very small and not comfortable to sit for crews better to get new APC IFV specially we lack
> 
> 
> You guys will soon be spared forever since I'm leaving this forum for better good of you all thanks sir


Good riddance.

PS: his answer above is also not accurate at all. You can find better answers on the VT4 and Al-khalid threads. I again have no idea what he means what what his sources are.

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## Super Falcon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Good riddance.
> 
> PS: his answer above is also not accurate at all. You can find better answers on the VT4 and Al-khalid threads. I again have no idea what he means what what his sources are.


Don't you think we need better infantry fighting vehicles than Saad types which no one operates because they don't offer much on battlefield the troops space is very very limited and non comfort better opt for VN 22 or Turkish we lack them which can give support our tanks with better SHORADS integrated on them for air threats India always had upper hand with BMP for counter and cover fire for our tanks 


Your wish soon be fulfilled sir you won't be seeing much of me becoz your hatred towards me thanks PDF and it's members take care


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561050276852912130


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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
President Dr. Arif Alvi inspecting Al-Khalid-1 Main Battle Tank during his visit to HIT, Taxila ..








.















Pakistan Strategic Forum
@ForumStrategic

VT-4 3rd Generation Main Battle Tank of Pakistan Army Armour Corps during manufacturing at HIT, Taxila..


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