# 17 Indian Army soldiers killed in Uri attack



## Sankpal

Explosions were heard inside Army’s Uri brigade headquarters at Baramulla in Jammu and Kashmir on Sunday, reported news agency _PTI_. According to the preliminary reports, militants stormed the army brigade headquarters and intense firing is underway to neutralise them.

The 12th brigade headquarters at Uri is located close to the Line of Control (LoC). The attack took place at wee hours in the morning.

The police suspects it to be a fidayeen attack. Around 3-4 militants are suspected to be inside the HQ. There are no reports of any casualty.
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rigade-in-baramulla-kashmir-breaking-3036911/

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## Sankpal

*NDTV (@ndtv)*
48 mins ago - View on Twitter
Terror attack at Army headquarters in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri, near Line of Control; intense firing underway

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## RISING SUN

Number of fidayeen terrorists nkt sure, news channels suggesting 3-4 terrorists as usual their blind guessed. Let military search area slowly. No need to hurry.

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## The_Sidewinder

Hopefully there will be less casualities in our side. 
happy hunting IA

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## CHD

Death to the terrorists in Kashmir

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## ito

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/terr...kashmirs-uri-1460034?pfrom=home-lateststories

*Terror Attack At Army Camp In Jammu And Kashmir's Uri*
All India | Written by Nazir Masoodi | Updated: September 18, 2016 08:38 IST
 
by Taboola 
Sponsored Links 
*COMMENTS*







Terrorists attacked an army installation in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri this morning (File photo)

SRINAGAR: 
*HIGHLIGHTS*

At least 4 terrorists attack army installation in Baramulla district
Terrorists entered camp around 4 am; gunbattle with forces underway
Rajnath Singh postpones visit to Russia, US

At least four terrorists have attacked an army installation in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri, which is near the Line of Control. A gun battle is on.

The terrorists, suspected to be _fidayeen _or a suicide squad, attacked the camp at around 4 am and entered the administrative area, officials said.

The camp is on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway in the Baramulla district, about 70 km from state capital Srinagar.

Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh has postponed a visit to Russia and the US that was to have started today, news agency PTI reported.

More details are awaited.

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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

Now they are getting desperate


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## mshan44

Its tit for tat. they way you treat kashmiris. what you expecting

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## ito

mshan44 said:


> Its tit for tat. they way you treat kashmiris. what you expecting



So you do terror activities in India, and blackmail India to give up Kashmir. Not going to happen. On the other hand this only prove Pakistan's hand in the recent unrest in Indian state of Kashmir. And International community should take note of this.

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## mshan44

ito said:


> So you do terror activities in India, and blackmail India to give up Kashmir. Not going to happen. On the other hand this only prove that Pakistan's hand in the recent unrest in Indian state of Kashmir. And International community should take note of this.


well first get your facts straight kashmir is not india

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## AMCA

CHD said:


> Death to the terrorists in Kashmir



Death to terrorists anywhere.. Kashmir, Baluchistan etc etc....


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## RISING SUN

Things are confusing at the time. It seems terrorists engaged rear formation of 12th brigade. Not the HQ of Uri based 12th brigade. As of now initial casualties are there on our side, number yet to be confirmed by officially. Special forces dropped using Army helicopters to engage the groups of terrorists.


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## Beskar

Two soldiers of the occupation forces have died

Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack
By IANS




Publish Date: 18-Sep-16 9:43 AM
Two soldiers were killed and several others injured when militants attacked an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri town on Sunday morning, said defence sources.

The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.

"Gunmen attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources added.

In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.

Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack
http://www.greaterkashmir.com

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## nair

Hope the terrorists are sent to their ultimate destination quickly.....

One good thing is, since this happened in Kashmir this will never be called a false flag in pdf.... same guy's attack another state would automatically qualify to be a false flag

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## nair

9 martyred according to some channels and terrorists are on their way to he'll.. ...

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## Beskar



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## Zibago

Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack; paracommandos airdropped
The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.
IANS 
Srinagar | Posted : Sep 18 2016 9:38AM | Updated: Sep 18 2016 9:50AM
0 0 0

Agency pic
Two soldiers were killed and several others injured when militants attacked an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri town on Sunday morning, said defence sources.
The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.
"Gunmen attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources added.
In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.

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## RISING SUN

nair said:


> 9 martyred according to some channels and terrorists are on their way to he'll.. ...


Nine as per daily Pakistan only. As per Indian news channels number is 2 while four terrorists have been neutralized till now. However we should wait till forces clear out all terrorists and official statement is released.


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## RISING SUN

Zibago said:


> Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack; paracommandos airdropped
> The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.
> IANS
> Srinagar | Posted : Sep 18 2016 9:38AM | Updated: Sep 18 2016 9:50AM
> 0 0 0
> 
> Agency pic
> Two soldiers were killed and several others injured when militants attacked an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri town on Sunday morning, said defence sources.
> The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.
> "Gunmen attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources added.
> In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.


Four terrorists neutralized in initial time of attack. They had attacked the rear formation.

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## Indika

RISING SUN said:


> Nine as per daily Pakistan only. As per Indian news channels number is 2 while four terrorists have been neutralized till now. However we should wait till forces clear out all terrorists and official statement is released.


pak news sources are putting it at 9 martyred and 4 terrorists killed while Indian news sources say 3 martyred 4 terrorists killed. 
Question is how do pak news sources know the casualty figures better than Indian news sources? sounds fishy.
Is it another psyops by the enemy?

Any ways militant strikes prove that the valley is infested with infiltrated terrorists and Indias action in valley will be reinforced by such strikes.

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## Sankpal

17 army shaheed RIP
source Aaj tak


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## The_Sidewinder

The rear formation contained admin & medically not fit for duty soldiers, and freshly arrived elements of newly inducted units.
Promt action by Army & Cammando unit helped in repelling the attack with low casuality rate.


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## ranjeet

May the soldiers rest in peace .... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777377250366754817


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## T-72M1

ranjeet said:


> May the soldiers rest in peace ....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777377250366754817


17 ? 

wow, huge loss vs just 4, what the hell happened ?


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## jha

Unbelievable... Simply mind numbing...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777377250366754817
नैनं छिन्दन्ति शस्त्राणि नैनं दहति पावकः न चैनं क्लेदयन्त्यापो न शोषयति मारुतः !

Rest in Heaven Sirs. May god accept your supreme sacrifice.

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## Dragon4

There was a terror alert beforehand and still 17 got martyred. Really, a soldier's life doesn't matter to our country.


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## Max

Militants attacked an army camp in Uri, Baramulla in north Kashmir early on Sunday morning.

Sources said intense firing and explosions could be heard at 12th brigade headquarters in Uri.

The attack began at 5.30am in the morning and militants breached the perimeter fence to enter the camp.

Live updates

*11am:* 17 soldiers killed in Uri terror attack: Army’s Northern Command, reoports PTI. The army death toll is the worst in Kashmir since a raid in December 2014, also near Uri, in which eight soldiers and three police were killed.

*10:59am: *Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag to visit Kashmir in the wake of terror attack in Uri, PTI reports.

*10:15am:*  All four terrorists gunned down by Army, who attacked Rear Base of one of the unit deployed at Uri (J&K). Search operation on, army sources said.

*10:10am:* An army spokesperson said four militants have been killed in the Uri terror attack, reports PTI.

*9:57am:* High level security meet to take place at HM Rajnath Singh’s residence at 12:15pm, senior MHA and MoD officials to attend the meet, reports ANI.

*9:25am:* Security forces have strengthened security in Uri and on roads connecting the Line of Control (LoC).

*9am:* Jammu and Kashmir governor NN Vohra and chief minister Mehbooba Mufti apprise Rajnath Singh regarding the situation in Uri.

Singh also instructed home secretary and other senior officers in Ministry of home affairs to closely monitor the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, ANI reported.

*8:50am:* Rajnath Singh calls an emergency meeting as the encounter in Kashmir army camp continues.







*8:25am:* Two army personnel killed in Uri attack, senior Jammu and Kashmir police official confirms. Of the 6 injured, one is in a critical condition.

*8:10am:* Home minister Rajnath Singh postpones his visit to Russia and US because of Kashmir encounter.




Follow

Rajnath Singh 

✔@rajnathsingh
Keeping the situation of Jammu and Kashmir in mind and in the wake of terror attack in Uri, I have postponed my visits to Russia and the USA

8:31 AM - 18 Sep 2016




415415 Retweets


1,0011,001 likes




*8:00am:* Army’s special forces had airdropped in Uri where the encounter was on.

The Army has sent three choppers from army’s 19 divisional headquarters in Baramulla to Uri, ANI reported.




Follow

ANI 

✔@ANI_news
#Firstvisuals: Terrorist attack at army's Brigade Headquarter in Uri (J&K). Presence of 3-4 terrorists suspected.

8:10 AM - 18 Sep 2016




8585 Retweets


4141 likes


*7:50am:* 6 army personnel were reported to be injured in the attack.

*7:30am:* News agency ANI said 3-4 militants were suspected to be involved in the attack.

*7:15am:* A police officer said militants sneaked into the army camp in Uri town before dawn and used guns and grenades to target the soldiers.

*7:00am:* Police sources said some barracks caught fire in the encounter. The number of militants involved in the attack is not known yet.

Police sources told HT that reports of increased infiltration since the summer unrest have been coming from the area, which is close to the Line of Control (LoC).

Uri, a town west of Srinagar, houses the Indian Army’s brigade headquarters in the region along the de facto border.

Kashmir has witnessed violent protests since the July 8 killing of a popular rebel commander by security forces.

Read | Despite injuries, Kashmir pellet victims stay defiant, yearn for ‘azadi’

*(With inputs from agencies)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...e-firing-on/story-E80SgFSG1wt3X8aXfhPY9K.html

Salute to brave freedom fighters for sending occupier scums to hell..
*
@Winchester @Windjammer @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Areesh @MastanKhan @Zibago @Djinn @Kaptaan @Arsalan @Mentee @Pakistan First @Taimoor Khan @maximuswarrior @Horus @Mugwop @HAKIKAT @django

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## ranjeet

Rajnath postpones his trip to US and Russia, called an Emergency meeting to do Kadi Ninda.

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## Tea addict

T-72M1 said:


> 17 ?
> 
> wow, huge loss vs just 4, what the hell happened ?


Ex Lt General is saying that they fired on barracks where soldiers were sleeping, at 4 am .


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## Beskar

Kashmir: 17 soldiers, 4 militants killed in Uri Fidayeen attack
By GK Web Desk





Publish Date: 18-Sep-16 11:12 AM
Seventeen soldiers and four militants were killed after militants stormed an army camp in Uri area of north Kashmir’s Baramulla district on Sunday, officials said.

“17 soldiers were killed in Uri attack,” PTI quoted Northern Army Command.

It said that Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag will visit Kashmir in the wake of the attack in Uri.

Four fidayeen (suicide) militants had entered the rear base amp of an infantry battalion in Uri town around 5.30 a.m.

"Militants attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources said.

In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.

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## ThaniOruvan

17 Jawans and four militants killed in the attack.

Waiting for comments that just 4 militants killed 17 soldiers. Think of what a whole nation can do.


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## mshan44

Amazing! 4 days before Nawaz Sharif's speech at UN Gen.Assembly, suddenly terror attacks start in 'Kashmir',Why Now??

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## ranjeet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777382929047572480
Hizb ul Mujahideen takes responsibility of this attack.

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## Zarvan

Mufflerman said:


> If IA does not go hunting into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and flatten some camps, this will never stop.


You are more than welcome to try it. We would love to say hello to your fighter jets. Please give it a try.

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## mshan44

Raul_AD said:


> Why cant the Pakistanis keep themselves away from pirated copies of Bollywood Movies ???


sure if you stop smuggling pirated copies to Pakistan



ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777382929047572480
> Hizb ul Mujahideen takes responsibility of this attack.


surprising indian media haven't blame the ISI yet

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## Burhan Wani

Mufflerman said:


> If IA does not go hunting into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and flatten some camps, this will never stop.


You will come on your legs but will return without them. 
May Allah shower blessings on our freedom fighters both sides.
Burhans's Revenge.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

well this was expected after Indian army killed 87 civillain in kashmir. You burn when play with fire and MOdi will now think about his aggressive policy in occupied kashmir

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## Sankpal

Max said:


> @WAJsal @waz


why???

if someone killed country army people n some people start celebrating ..n it is fine here
army represent to any nation n how many times indian celebrate if attacks happen in pak?

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## Signalian

Pointing fingers at pakistan is useless, killing Indian soldiers doesnt help Pakistan.

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## Burhan Wani

AshishDelhi said:


> Haan and our legs are not as strong as Pakistani army who marched from Dacca to wagha in 71.
> All 4 terrorists are dead.
> Nothing changed on ground. India knows that Kashmir is ours and no body can take it away from us.


No one is taking Kashmir from you. It was an indigenous movement and you are loosing on ground.
Today 17 families of your country will mourn your soldiers this is how they can judge the pain of loved once loss.
Change your policies and quit our land otherwise more Burhans are ready across the border to revenge the death of million Kashmiri muslims.


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## anant_s

RIP to the Martyred Soldiers

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## Signalian

Mufflerman said:


> If IA does not go hunting into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and flatten some camps, this will never stop.


use pellets on Indian Kashmiris and blame Pakistan for retaliation? You are Completely clueless.

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## Clutch

The attackers from what I have analyzed may be fathers or brothers of those killed by the Indian army in Kashmir over the past few weeks. They may have been taking social justice into their hands.

It is a very high probability that this was so according to my research.

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## Tipu7

17 Indian soldiers killed.
19 injured.
All four militants are dead.
ND TV report

But in fact, action is still on. Indian army is using heavy machinery to tackle militants.

Blame is already on Pakistan (as usual). But why will Pakistan hit IA at time when PM Nawaz Sharif is going to address UN? It will just weaken Pakistan case about Kashmir.
This attack will benefit Indian narrative about Kashmir cross border militancy.

Another False flag?

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## Signalian

anant_s said:


> RIP to the Martyred Soldiers


I share your pain. Unfortunately, Its the soldier in front line who takes the heat.

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## Thomas M

Now it is clear AFSPA will never be revoked in Kashmir. The civilians will suffer more due to these type of attacks, nothing else it is not going help the Kashmiri cause in any way. :-(

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

Max said:


> I did not celebrate their death..


Read the comments of your Pakistani fellows. Comments shows their pathetic mindset.

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## nair

17 confirmed..... RIp

Terrorists and their sympathisers can rejoice.... This was one of the worst attacks ever happened in Kashmir.. ..

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## Clutch

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> Bringing Children word is the best way to blame someone..It's getting old..Children don't carry grenades.


The kashmiri screams for freedom are being heard around the world.


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## Zibago

Kashmir: 17 soldiers, 4 militants killed in Uri Fidayeen attack
“17 soldiers were killed in Uri attack,” PTI news agency quoted Northern Army Command.
GK Web Desk 
Srinagar | Posted : Sep 18 2016 11:10AM | Updated: Sep 18 2016 11:12AM
4 2 0

An army helicopter flies over the site of gunbattle in Uri on Sunday. Firdous Hassan/GK
Seventeen soldiers and four militants were killed after militants stormed an army camp in Uri area of north Kashmir’s Baramulla district on Sunday, officials said.
“17 soldiers were killed in Uri attack,” PTI quoted Northern Army Command.

It said that Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag will visit Kashmir in the wake of the attack in Uri.
Four fidayeen (suicide) militants had entered the rear base amp of an infantry battalion in Uri town around 5.30 a.m.
"Militants attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources said.
In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.
http://m.greaterkashmir.com/news/ka...nts-killed-in-uri-fidayeen-attack/228631.html


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## scionoftheindus

ranjeet said:


> May the soldiers rest in peace ....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777377250366754817


17 is a big number brother..but how can they be so careless?how did terrorists enter the area?

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## Burhan Wani

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Not surprise Pakistan is burning where violent mind exist in huge numbers.


But the fire will reach nearby forests trust me.

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## Spectre

India will have to buckle up and impose and unacceptable costs on the terrorist base camps. If Modi gives into international pressure and displays the Manmohanist cowardice by not dishing out appropriate punishment then he deserves all the mirth and ridicule of 56"/feku etc. He can also forget the next general elections.

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## IceCold

This was coming. India thought it could simply crush the voice for freedom by brutality and accusing Pakistan of staging it. 
While Modi is busy trying to play dumb on Balochistan, Kashmir is slipping away. I dont rejoice deaths of soldiers since they are following orders from the higher ups but God speed to those who are tying to lay their lives for freedom. As the americans put it the cost of freedom is always high.

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## Clutch

AshishDelhi said:


> Indian Muslims have an identity. They are patriotic and religious. You are just incapable of understanding that.
> You guys on the other hand are just religious nutjobs justifying killings, calling it conspiracy or false flag when their is a blow back.
> Difference between you guys and ISIS is that you follow ISIS external policies but internally you want to follow Indian culture. Jehad for others but no sharia for self.
> You countrymen keep abusing Mullas. Go and stop them


Like i said you love Kashmir but hate kashmiris because you hate their religion... it reeks from you posts... that's why you will loose Kashmir... even if it takes a thousand years...

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Sankpal said:


> thread opened to celebrate for killing 17 indian n praise 4 terrorist
> i do never support attack in pak or world but feel pain if someone celebrate after killing indian army


We only celebrate attacks in Kashmir not rest of India . That's what you guys get when you pellet people and ruin there future .

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## Proudpakistaniguy

ito said:


> Huge....huge attack!
> It is time to cut all diplomatic relations with Pakistan.


You have completed your investigation to blame Pakistan lol

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## Tameem

*An Old Modi Tweet while in opposition, Lets see what "Act" this so called 56" chest do in premiership now.*

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## Beskar

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, I guess they just walked into the local kinara store and bought explosives and weapons.



Local militia has been raiding police/army check-posts/camps/vehicles for the past few weeks now. The media's downplaying this reality since nobody wants to admit how easy its become to loot Indian police/army barracks/vehicles.

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## Zarvan

ito said:


> What the hell man!....Cut off all ties with Pakistan. Recall Indian high commissioner from Pakistan.


Thank you and please thrown Pakistani actors working in India out of your country. In fact keep them and as for this attack what the hell ?? Really you kill 80 innocent Kashmiris you blind their children and your soldiers rape their women and than you expect flowers in return ????

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## ito

Clutch said:


> Well maybe if you stop cutting down kashmiris you wouldn't have to resort to cut ties with other nations... either way... it OK if u do...



If you think by doing terror inside India and blackmailing India, India will give up Kashmir, you are mistaken. This will only strengthen our resolve against terrorism.

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## The Sandman

Blaming Pakistan like always and chest thumping like saying bomb Pakistan won't help you grow up. 
R.I.P

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## T-Rex

*Deadly attack on Indian base in Kashmir*

7 minutes ago
From the section India
Militants attack army base in Indian-administered Kashmir, killing at least 17 soldiers

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37399969

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## M. Sarmad

It was an attack on a _military objective_

Acts of sabotage against the military installations of the _Occupying_ forces and Attacks on_ Legitimate military targets _are not "Terror" attacks. 

Long live the spirit of the freedom movement in Indian Occupied Kashmir

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## Spectre

Ranasikander said:


> Yes India army is killing Kashmiri's is utter desperation and now its response from freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> Come on give it a try and show some guts.
> We have been hearing such threats since attack on Indian Parliament.



Exactly we sadly are just good at threats. You know it too and that is why terror flows like Ganga from across the border. If only we had some balls.

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## Grevion

RIP to our brave soldiers. 
Its a big loss for all of us.
Coward terrorists attacked in the early morning. Now the culprits will pay a heavy price.
Things are going to be very serious now.

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## I M Sikander

ito said:


> What the hell man!....Cut off all ties with Pakistan. Recall Indian high commissioner from Pakistan.


Hahah.
I hope Indian gov. is listening to you.

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## The Sandman

Trumpcard said:


> View attachment 335516
> View attachment 335518


Off topic reported.


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## scorpionx

Incompetence of the corrupt politicians with their pitiful disregard for a comprehensive Kashmir policy is being paid with the lives of the braves. Rest in peace.

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## Jackdaws

Bezerk said:


> Local militia has been raiding police/army check-posts/camps/vehicles for the past few weeks now. The media's downplaying this reality since nobody wants to admit how easy its become to loot Indian police/army barracks/vehicles.


And is there a source for this?

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## Tipu7

Indeed.
96 people are killed by cross border militants.
590 people are blinded by pallet guns fired by cross border militants.

FACE PALM 


Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> They are not hostage..They are the victim of proxy war instigated by other side of the border





cloud_9 said:


> Would they be able to claim 71 virgins in such peak times?


You better worry about 17 widows instead of worrying about 71 virgins.

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## war&peace

Illegal base by the Indian occupation forces. Kashmiris are standing up for their rights.

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## vizier

Another attack which Pakistan will be immediately like the previous ones. The pattern is similar to Syria terrorists like isis that is supported by several usa client petrodollar countries carries out attacks and just like taking action against Syria from artillery barrage, israeli airstrikes to invasion after isis bombs somewhere providing the excuse the target now appears to be Pakistan. Pakistan should without waiting open all channels of communication immediately to help investigate and solve the issue as well as be always alert defenses as transition to a tense period from a peace time just depends on a single terrorist attack which can be organized by anyone to create tension for gains.


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## Beskar

Jackdaws said:


> And is there a source for this?


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## ito

Clutch said:


> If you think its all pakistan's doing... and kashmiri people have no grievances what do ever then you are dreaming... my wife is kashmiri... i know... yo
> 
> that's an arab pic... Baloch didn't wear checkered headdresses
> 
> 
> Not according to my kashmiri relatives.



My bhabi is a Kashmiri. So don't give lessons to me on Kashmir.

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## jaiind

The death of these Indian soldiers will be avenged by India!! Om shanthi

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## T-Rex

Sankpal said:


> *NDTV (@ndtv)*
> 48 mins ago - View on Twitter
> Terror attack at Army headquarters in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri, near Line of Control; intense firing underway


*
Attack on military base is no terror attack!*



Zibago said:


> Kashmir: 17 soldiers, 4 militants killed in Uri Fidayeen attack
> “17 soldiers were killed in Uri attack,” PTI news agency quoted Northern Army Command.
> GK Web Desk
> Srinagar | Posted : Sep 18 2016 11:10AM | Updated: Sep 18 2016 11:12AM
> 4 2 0
> 
> An army helicopter flies over the site of gunbattle in Uri on Sunday. Firdous Hassan/GK
> Seventeen soldiers and four militants were killed after militants stormed an army camp in Uri area of north Kashmir’s Baramulla district on Sunday, officials said.
> “17 soldiers were killed in Uri attack,” PTI quoted Northern Army Command.
> 
> It said that Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag will visit Kashmir in the wake of the attack in Uri.
> Four fidayeen (suicide) militants had entered the rear base amp of an infantry battalion in Uri town around 5.30 a.m.
> "Militants attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources said.
> In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.
> http://m.greaterkashmir.com/news/ka...nts-killed-in-uri-fidayeen-attack/228631.html


*
Military operation against occupation forces can happen any time, there's no question of terrorism when the land is being occupied by foreign forces. It is an act of self preservation.*

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## Clutch

ito said:


> My bhabi is a Kashmiri. So don't give lessons to me on Kashmir.


Im sure she is... but she isn't from the majority of native kashmiris... she is probably the wife of a stationed Indian solder... nevertheless not part of the majority.



jaiind said:


> The death of these Indian soldiers will be avenged by India!! Om shanthi


Yes... by killing more innocent kashmiri civilians

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## Clutch

Trumpcard said:


> Your people are free to go....if you have anti India feeling then be our guest and cross the border.


Exactly... let Kashmir go...

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## Grevion

Reports are saying that Lashkar-e-taiba took responsibility for thr attack.

As i have said those who were involved will pay a heavy price.


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## I M Sikander

scionoftheindus said:


> What can modi do to dismantle terror camps in pakistan?


Tettor camps. Nice joke. 
By the way modi can do nothing. It is bitter reality but please try digest



ito said:


> Yes, if Modi doesn't do. There will be no credibility left of him.


Indian said the same about manmohan, and were making tall claims that modi will not be impotent like manmohan.
But I think he can do nothing except lip service. He knows his limitation.



scorpionx said:


> Incompetence of the corrupt politicians with their pitiful disregard for a comprehensive Kashmir policy is being paid with the lives of the braves. Rest in peace.


These so called braves are actually raping the kashmiri women and killing innocent civilians using pellet guns and havr blinded thousand of people. 

Let them smell their own fart now.

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## T-Rex

war&peace said:


> Illegal base by the Indian occupation forces. Kashmiris are standing up for their rights.


*
There are some Pakistanis who are getting ready to apologize. It's amazing!*

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Sankpal said:


> yes, all Indians feel pain when a Kashmiri killed. truth is that kashmir will be remain as internal part of india.
> we should work with Kashmiri people to resolve this issue. believe or not, it is best for kashmiri brothers


112 killed 1000s injured still feeling pain ? sab sae bara jhoot yahi hai !


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## The Sandman

Trumpcard said:


> No topic is bigger than humanity....feel free to report.


Why you care about this "Humanity" only when something happens in I0K?


proud indian94 said:


> Now time has come to do surgical strikes in Azad Kashmir based terrorist camps.it is our own territory .it can't be considered as a attack on pakistan. Govt should show some spine .we cant take these type of attacks lying down.


Stop chest thumping already.
@Zibago @Jonah Arthur


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## I M Sikander

jaiind said:


> The death of these Indian soldiers will be avenged by India!! Om shanthi


Didnt India Said the same after Parliament attack
And after Mumbai attack
After pathan kot
After
After

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## Gentelman

Ok let me enlighten you with the drop scene...
Some so called Pakistani will be identified and UN speech will change dramatically...
And things will go in freezer just like Mumbai attack and India will be replying a letter after gaps of years!
RIP to the dead and its just an opinion, if you can't respect it then ignore it...


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## Param

Retaliation will come soon and it will be brutal.I hope we don't take time to pay back.Time is different now.Its not Congress rule now.

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## Clutch

T-72M1 said:


> to Pakistan ?


To where they want...



Param said:


> Retaliation will come soon and it will be brutal.I hope we don't take time to pay back.Time is different now.Its not Congress rule now.




By killing more innocent kashmiris?

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## Sam.

Ryuzaki said:


> So what should India do?Send jihadis to Islamabad and Mirpur?Or increase presence in Balochistan?


Yes, When playing cricket you can't win by 11 bowlers. If Modi doesn't deliver forget 2019 election he won't win UP or UK ones.

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## Sheikh Rauf

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> That's a huge casualty from our side.Mostly they were unprepared.RIP to the soldiers..
> Now the blood battle will begin..Each one of those mercenaries will be sent to hell once for all..No mercy



They are sending these state terrorist to hell slowly but surely.. same thought different sides...
Kashmir is out of indian bottle solve it.... cuz its going to spread in other state like disease.


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## ito

Clutch said:


> Im sure she is... but she isn't from the majority of native kashmiris... she is probably the wife of a stationed Indian solder... nevertheless not part of the majority.
> 
> 
> Yes... by killing more innocent kashmiri civilians



Hey, don't become personal!. Shove your pervertness where sun doesn't shine. And never quote me again.

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## Clutch

proud indian94 said:


> Now time has come to do surgical strikes across the border based terrorist camps.it is our own territory .it can't be considered as a attack on pakistan. Govt should show some spine .we cant take these type of attacks lying down.


Strike... and we will strike back... with nukes hopefully


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## T-Rex

AshishDelhi said:


> Well if a Bangladeshi and an Indian visit Pakistan then am sure an Indian will be treated better, will have more in common to talk about. I don't know why some Bangladeshi act as if they are part of Pakistan and try to look like mujahideens



*I don't understand why indians are acting like West Pakistanis in 1971!*

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## Gandhi G in da house

Rest in Peace to the brave soldiers.

Not that they didn't know already, but the international community will once again realise the true terrorist, Islamist, Jihadist nature of the separatist movement in the Kashmir Valley and its supporters and nurturers from across the border. 

This is only going to hurt their so called cause for 'Azadi'.

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## Sheikh Rauf

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> India's action is now justifiable..
> India should do a full fledged budget allocation to kill these rattle snakes whether in India or in neighbor..
> Reciprocation from army will come sooner or later.These things don't go unaccounted..
> To get Kashmir you are making your nation miserable..Just wait till flamed up..



Oh its hurting when they attack you guys.. well its indian internal matter i guess right..
you have electrict fences, sinpers drones 700 thousands army to protect kashmir there is no way Pakistani can help from LoC.. someone from inside playing games.

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## Windjammer

The Army camp in Uri that was attacked by four millitants (Picture: Twitter / @ANI_news)

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> 9 martyred according to some channels and terrorists are on their way to he'll.. ...




More likely. Seems they got through to personnel lines. 

Shit happens. If the opposite guy is prepared to die, you can expect casualties on own side. Best chance is to minimise your casualties. In this case, if what I can make out, they got through to the barracks.

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## Sugarcane

Param said:


> Retaliation will come soon and it will be brutal.I hope we don't take time to pay back.Time is different now.Its not Congress rule now.



You have already killed 90+ and blinded dozens in few weeks, what more brutality you want to bring?

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## scorpionx

Ranasikander said:


> These so called braves are actually raping the kashmiri women and killing innocent civilians using pellet guns and havr blinded thousand of people.
> 
> Let them smell their own fart now.


Notwithstanding the reality of bad eggs or the abominable pellet gun policy, I called them braves for a reason. Now lets not start what these 'so called' braves had done to you in the past. Ok?

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## Tameem

*The Associated Press* ‏@AP  1h1 hour ago
BREAKING: A top army officer says 17 soldiers, 4 rebels dead in attack on Indian army base in Kashmir.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The world Now acknowledges Kashmir's disputed nature and her people indigenous movement finally!!

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## Musafir117

And it's begun

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## Windjammer

The Indians can divulge in the habitual finger pointing at Pakistan but the reality is that those 90 odd innocent civilians killed also were someones son, brother or husband, do you think their next of kin will just sit and hope for some justice. !!!
This is what was reported just last week, you have killed indiscriminately and have turned the next generation towards towards their just cause.
*
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/569788/more-youths-south-kashmir-join.html*

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## ranjeet

Spectre said:


> India will have to buckle up and impose and unacceptable costs on the terrorist base camps. If Modi gives into international pressure and displays the Manmohanist cowardice by not dishing out appropriate punishment then he deserves all the mirth and ridicule of 56"/feku etc. He can also forget the next general elections.



It's time either he Man up and let his action do the talking or he's going down the drain just like Vajpai with his vikas vikas vikas tuntuna.

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## Sheikh Rauf

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> Yes it has been spreading since last 70 years..
> If India with will really invest in your freedom movements you know the consequences..
> Just consider Pakistan without baluchistan gilgit baltistan & fata.Indian states would look bigger than this..



lol if india. its tit for tat... you pinch us we will punch in your face it might be slow but it will come and it just started..
we havent started in assam nexlites and khalsa... you wanna come to chabahar and afg do try that  
you have been playing and barking on indian channels i wanna see how you gonna react on tv now with your super X army men and some barking anchors...
ajit dovgal admited how he have been sending terrorists .. so we bringing your head to field..


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## scorpionx

Raul_AD said:


> All were incompetent since 1947. First Nehru lost it by taking to UN and it is still pain in the @ss.
> 
> We never had the courage like what Pakistan did in 1965 though they lost it but still they tried. India never had the courage to cross the border and settle the issue once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 1965 on table in Tashkent.
> 
> We again lost it in 1971 on table when we were holding 95,000 POW.
> 
> We again lost it in 1980s when the insurgency started. We never had the courage to bitch slap the Pakistan, shut it Fcukup once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 1999 Kargil, we never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India, hence we will exterminate the source for once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 2002 in Parliament attack and never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India we happily let attackers go off hold without inflicting even a single scar.
> 
> We lost it in 2008 in Mumbai attack and never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India, and we never inflicted any price on attackers by drenching it in blood.
> 
> Yes we are a coward nation because we were always governed by coward leaders. As a nation we lack the courage to take the fight to the enemy.



I agree completely. The superiority on battle field was repeatedly lost in the drawing board.

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## RedHulk

An other False flag operation by RAW to kill new recruits of Indian Army to put the blame on Pakistan as Pakistan in UN going to Show brutality of Indian army in a diplomatic way. This is a well played an old card of RAW to put blame on Pakistan and dampen the struggle of Kashmiris. One wonders why would pakistan carry an attack on Indian army when this kind of act will shed water on all the hard work done. This could have been done in future if UN failed to do any thing about kashmir again.

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## T90TankGuy

This is the largest loss for the IA in a single OP in 25 yrs. Most of the jawans were killed due to their barracks and tents catching fire. almost all of the thirty odd personnel who have been airlifted to 92base hospital have second and third degree burns. Expect the casualty to rise , third degree burns are usually fatal .

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## Signalian

Indian members should first look at Problems in Indian security lapse.

1. Local Police: The militants slipped unchecked through check post
2. Intelligence agencies and RAW : No clue or reports about imminent attack. 
3. BSF : Presence on borders as well as city. Failure on one or both of these accounts
4. Indian Army: Camp walls didnt stop intrusion. Brigade Commander didnt realise that Rear HQ is vulnerable. 
5. Indian Govt/Politicians: The officials who gave orders of pellet firing at own citizens should have anticipated this response.

Fire/Suspend the Area Police Commissioner 
Fire/Suspend the RAW officials and Intelligence agencies officials responsible for security of this sensitive Area 
Court Martial the BSF area commander 
Court Martial the Brigadier (Brigade Commander). He lost 17 men due to poor camp security planning and is not fit for command. 
Fire/Suspend the local Minister as well as Federal Minister who cannot make decisions in favour of local population who elected them.

After putting own system properly, then maybe India should look at Pakistan. 
.

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## Sugarcane

Param said:


> You guys play a broken guitar.If you support terrorism,say so or keep quiet.You are a terrorist state recognized all over the world.Only positive thing about your country was its secular and free thinking,which you are surrendering to become a fundamentalist state.See rise of ISS in your country.
> 
> Just read how many Policeman and Paramilitary guys have been injured in this agitation in Kashmir,and you will understand the restraint they show.



Crow is white

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## T90TankGuy

This is the largest loos for the IA in a single OP in 25 yrs. Most of the jawans were killed due to their barracks and tents catching fire. almost all of the thirty odd personnel who have been airlifted to 92base hospital have second and third degree burns. Expect the casualty to rise , third degree burns are usually fatal .

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## B+ Dracula

T-Rex said:


> *Deadly attack on Indian base in Kashmir*
> 
> 7 minutes ago
> From the section India
> Militants attack army base in Indian-administered Kashmir, killing at least 17 soldiers
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37399969


*Mashallah*,
If they mentioned 17 death of Indian occupiers then it might be 50 plus or 100 ((that's why...Rajnath canceled his schedule tours to Russia/USA)) .......And it will happen *again and again and again* ....Indian members get prepared themselves to hear such news 2 times or 3 times in a day in near future.
.
Kashmir belongs to us and it is mandatory for occupiers to pay its TOKEN-MONEY from now on everyday...till that dispute takes it own course.

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## AshishDelhi

New World said:


> Another Parliament attack like Drama is happening.. to divert world's attention from innocent killing of kashmiris.


You are a disgrace to shahadat of 4 freedom fighters. First talk to fellow Pakistanis and decide who were the attackers. Stop changing stance as per situation

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## #hydra#

56" tongue won't kill militants.


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## T90TankGuy

scionoftheindus said:


> Don't be emotional..be real..we can't wage a direct war on pakistan..you need not tell modi what to do..he is more worried about india than you..you will hear some good news from Pakistan very soon.
> 
> 
> But how did they catch fire?by grenade attacks?


Yes !!!. also depends on the type of grenade used.


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## Clutch

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Not surprise Muslims suffering everywhere. ISIS , bolo haram, TTP , Taliban , JuD, LeT, etc etc all are struggling for freedom.


Funny how the whole world lumps all the muslims in one basket as we are all one...

But when in Africa Christian tribes but her themselves like the Hutus and Tutsi... nobody tells the Greeks look your Christian brothers in Africa are killers so you have no claim over Cyprus.. Etc.

Kashmiris have a legitimate basis for grievances either face up to that fact or pay the consequences... don't tell the kashmiris... hey boko haramis!

Thatsbwhy you loose Kashmir... because you hate their religion.


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## Pandora

Only way to end blood shed is to solve Kashmir issue comprehensively otherwise bodies will keep pilling up on both sides. These soldiers should be mourned as it is not the soldiers that are responsible for Kashmir massacre but policy makers who force them to kill innocents. When you are having an open season in Kashmir then no one will be safe not even soldiers.

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## Signalian

SrNair said:


> Some people still dontblearn a single lesson.
> You have killed 17 soldiers .But you also killed the chances for the peace of Kashmiris.
> It would be absolutely sure that we wont hunt innocent Kashmiris because of this.
> 
> But if there is any proof of crossborder terrorism ,Pakistan would face severe consequences .
> Now noone in this world stand in front of us in the name of restrain and peace.



Indian corrupt system and security lapses of Army, BSF, Police, RAW etc is the cause, blaming Pakistan will not lead you anywhere. But continue to your heart's content.


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## AshishDelhi

Sarge said:


> Indian members should first look at Problems in Indian security lapse.
> 
> 1. Local Police: The militants slipped unchecked through check post
> 2. Intelligence agencies and RAW : No clue or reports about imminent attack.
> 3. BSF : Presence on borders as well as city. Failure on one or both of these accounts
> 4. Indian Army: Camp walls didnt stop intrusion. Brigade Commander didnt realise that Rear HQ is vulnerable.
> 5. Indian Govt/Politicians: The officials who gave orders of pellet firing at own citizens should have anticipated this response.
> 
> Fire/Suspend the Area Police Commissioner
> Fire/Suspend the RAW officials and Intelligence agencies officials responsible for security of this sensitive Area
> Court Martial the BSF area commander
> Court Martial the Brigadier (Brigade Commander). He lost 17 men due to poor camp security planning and is not fit for command.
> Fire/Suspend the local Minister as well as Federal Minister who cannot make decisions in favour of local population who elected them.
> 
> After putting own system properly, then maybe India should look at Pakistan.
> .


Pakistani members just decide one thing, whether this is false flag or freedom fighter operation.


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## anant_s

Zibago said:


> Go to bharat ratshit and indian fb pages and see what language they use for Pakistan they celebrate increase in casualties


Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Hellfire

@nair @Spectre @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer 

Policy shifts. Expect more concentration on P0K. Rationale being 'own territory'. 

Let's wait and watch. Things have become too serious. Modi can not afford to back off. We expect things to head south very fast and very quickly.

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> @nair @Spectre @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer
> 
> Policy shifts. Expect more concentration on P0K. Rationale being 'own territory'.
> 
> Let's wait and watch. Things have become too serious. Modi can not afford to back off. We expect things to head south very fast and very quickly.



India needs to extract costs - "in blood". If they don't feel tangible pain then they will continue murdering and terrorizing ad nauseam.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

You kill 102 Kashmiri youth (including children) you injure and blind 12,000 in just 72 days of mass protests and curfew!


You should expect more Kashmiris to rise up and fire you not with protests but with arms gif their freedom!

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## AshishDelhi

Pakistanees just decide whether this is false flag or separatist attack.


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## Hellfire

scionoftheindus said:


> 17 is a big number brother..but *how can they be so careless*?how did terrorists enter the area?



I personally resent your bold part. 

When you are faced with a guy ready to die who is heavily armed, very little you can do to stop him. You can only hope to reduce your own casualties.

Secondly the militants got through to barrack(s) area.

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## Signalian

Indian members should first look at Problems in Indian security lapse.

1. Local Police: The militants slipped unchecked through check post
2. Intelligence agencies and RAW : No clue or reports about imminent attack. 
3. BSF : Presence on borders as well as city. Failure on one or both of these accounts
4. Indian Army: Camp walls didnt stop intrusion. Brigade Commander didnt realise that Rear HQ is vulnerable. 
5. Indian Govt/Politicians: The officials who gave orders of pellet firing at own citizens should have anticipated this response.

Fire/Suspend the Area Police Commissioner 
Fire/Suspend the RAW officials and Intelligence agencies officials responsible for security of this sensitive Area 
Court Martial the BSF area commander 
Court Martial the Brigadier (Brigade Commander). He lost 17 men due to poor camp security planning and is not fit for command. 
Fire/Suspend the local Minister as well as Federal Minister who cannot make decisions in favour of local population who elected them.

After putting own system properly, then maybe India should look at Pakistan.

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## kobiraaz

RIP ​

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> India needs to extract costs - "in blood". If they don't feel tangible pain then they will continue murdering and terrorizing ad nauseam.


102 martyred..12000 blinded or injured in the past 2 months!

Almost over 1 lac killing thousands missing,dozens of thousands tortured ... 13000 rapes .. Mass graves found..

It's Indian occupation that needs to pay the price.

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## ranjeet

scionoftheindus said:


> Don't be emotional..be real..we can't wage a direct war on pakistan..you need not tell modi what to do..he is more worried about india than you..you will hear some good news from Pakistan very soon.
> 
> 
> But how did they catch fire?by grenade attacks?



I just want the default "kade shabdo mein ghor ninda" nonsense to be done with.

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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> India needs to extract costs - "in blood". If they don't feel tangible pain then they will continue murdering and terrorizing ad nauseam.




It shall come, that is a foregone conclusion. Once UNGA meet is over.

Era of conflict management is over. We are heading into the conflict resolution stage which requires the political will and political acts.

Let's see what fibre is the present political dispensation made up of.

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## scionoftheindus

hellfire said:


> I personally resent your bold part.
> 
> When you are faced with a guy ready to die who is heavily armed, very little you can do to stop him. You can only hope to reduce your own casualties.
> 
> Secondly the militants got through to barrack(s) area.


Don't get me wrong mate..we al know how much soldiers are on the target list in kashmir..I only wished there should have been more safety measures and they should have been more cautious there.


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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You kill 102 Kashmiri youth (including children) you injure and blind 12,000 in just 72 days of mass protests and curfew!
> 
> 
> You should expect more Kashmiris to rise up and fire you not with protests but with arms gif their freedom!



It remains to be seen if they were Indian Kashmiris or exports from across the border. 90/100 they come with regards from Pakistan.

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## Raul_AD

hellfire said:


> @nair @Spectre @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer
> 
> Policy shifts. Expect more concentration on P0K. Rationale being 'own territory'.
> 
> Let's wait and watch. Things have become too serious. Modi can not afford to back off. We expect things to head south very fast and very quickly.



Time has arrived for final and decisive action to end all the enemies once in for all. India should not stop till it Breaks Pakistan into 4 pieces.


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## T90TankGuy

hellfire said:


> @nair @Spectre @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer
> 
> Policy shifts. Expect more concentration on P0K. Rationale being 'own territory'.
> 
> Let's wait and watch. Things have become too serious. Modi can not afford to back off. We expect things to head south very fast and very quickly.


This policy has its own limitations. Also the first thing is to calm the situation in Kashmir down. I wish for a more thought out policy rather than knee jerk reactions. 
As for accepting Azad Kashmir as own territory , it would mean us going back to the drawing board. and starting the process once again , this govt has so far not been very good in making strategic policies vis a vie Pakistan.

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## Sucha Kuggu

No surprise: it usual Indian tactic to divert world's attention in UNO. Check the history at every international or bilateral interactions to restore peace between two countries such incidences are staged by Indian agencies.

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## Hello It's me

Modi should give a fitting reply to the terrorist factory or else he will loose badly in the next election.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> It remains to be seen if they were Indian Kashmiris or exports from across the border. 90/100 they come with regards from Pakistan.



Yesterday an 11 year old boy was killed by indian troops !

He was buried wrapped in a Pakistani flag ... He was from IOK.. Yet he was Pakistani;

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## T90TankGuy

hellfire said:


> I personally resent your bold part.
> 
> When you are faced with a guy ready to die who is heavily armed, very little you can do to stop him. You can only hope to reduce your own casualties.
> 
> Secondly the militants got through to barrack(s) area.


He is not from a military background so he is lets say, to put it mildly "ignorant" of the issues.

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## Alpha BeeTee

ito said:


> What the hell man!....Cut off all ties with Pakistan. Recall Indian high commissioner from Pakistan.



For heavens' sake do it already.
Bless us.


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## The Sandman

Raul_AD said:


> Time has arrived for final and decisive action to end all the enemies once in for all. India should not stop till it Breaks Pakistan into 4 pieces.


*facepalm*

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## SrNair

Azamm said:


> No surprise: it usual Indian tactic to divert world's attention in UNO. Check the history at every international or bilateral interactions to restore peace between two countries such incidences are staged by Indian agencies.



Whatever it is,
If this is a cross border terrorism,Pakistan would really face some tough question in UN and in diplomatic circles

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## Hellfire

Sarge said:


> Indian members should first look at Problems in Indian security lapse.
> 
> 1. Local Police: The militants slipped unchecked through check post
> 2. Intelligence agencies and RAW : No clue or reports about imminent attack.
> 3. BSF : Presence on borders as well as city. Failure on one or both of these accounts
> 4. Indian Army: Camp walls didnt stop intrusion. Brigade Commander didnt realise that Rear HQ is vulnerable.
> 5. Indian Govt/Politicians: The officials who gave orders of pellet firing at own citizens should have anticipated this response.



Point 1. Militants approached in a circuitous route.
Point 2. Int warnings non-sepcific were there
Point 3. You know the terrain, one can pass through howsoever many troops you place. The location is in proximity to LOC.
Point 4. There were no walls/partial walls. Contact took place at an entrance point. Stand off kills achieved. Very rapid access to barracks. Inside job (a local kashmiri employed there) is suspected and likely.
Point 5. Irrelevant. More pertinent is that NS addresses UNGA in 3 days time, more of a chance to raise the spectre? If Indians start the usual chest thumping they play right into the hands of NS at UNGA! Smart move from Pak POV, but a real dumb move otherwise.




Sarge said:


> Fire/Suspend the Area Police Commissioner
> Fire/Suspend the RAW officials and Intelligence agencies officials responsible for security of this sensitive Area
> Court Martial the BSF area commander
> Court Martial the Brigadier (Brigade Commander). He lost 17 men due to poor camp security planning and is not fit for command.
> Fire/Suspend the local Minister as well as Federal Minister who cannot make decisions in favour of local population who elected them.
> 
> After putting own system properly, then maybe India should look at Pakistan.




I actually think all your above points are counter-productive.

And lastly, blaming Pakistan is the most stupidest thing we can do.

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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We don't send anyone.
> 
> Kashmiri has been turned into a mess by indian f1lth that has been committing attrocities for the past 7 decades ...
> 
> As for manure ..17 sacks of manure today.. Just the start of the new Kashmiri armed resistance!



You dont send anyone? It is one thing sending people to die for a cause and then another thing to disown them. Atleast give them the respect of acknowledging them. Disgusting!

Can''t expect any better from you - when you army has been doing the same since in 60s.

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## Hellfire

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> As for manure ..17 sacks of manure today.. Just the start of the new Kashmiri armed resistance!



I suggest the member refrain from such language. It is deplorable for any soldier, irrespective.

@WAJsal


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> All the more shameful that you encourage children to fight while lounging comfortably in Islamabad.



Fight? How's fighting protests are the rights of the people ! While you shoot and kill peaceful protestors and even 9 year old girls blinded when grenades are thrown in their houses by your troops!


Do i need to remind you how your troops have blinded and killed people in their houses ?

How about mass rapes of entire Kashmiri villages ?

Or attacking ambulances and toeturing patients ?


How about you have some shame and stop the game of death you have been playing in IOK for the past 7 decades !
Dawoos people.

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## Hellfire

scionoftheindus said:


> Don't get me wrong mate..we al know how much soldiers are on the target list in kashmir..I only wished there should have been more safety measures and they should have been more cautious there.



How much cautious? I really want someone to tell me how does one fight an enemy prepared to die?

Do you suggest that we should kill anyone approaching the gate?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

hellfire said:


> I suggest the member refrain from such language. It is deplorable for any soldier, irrespective.
> 
> @WAJsal



And I would suggest that you people do the same !

You can't expect others to remain respectful while you talk crap.

Respect is earned not demanded.. @Irfan Baloch.

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## Grevion

RIP to the our brave soldiers.
It is a big loss for all of us.
Those who were responsible for this attack will pay a heavy price.
Things are going to be very serious now.
Army Chief anf DM are going to Kashmir. 
HM has cancelled his foreign trips, the NSA and the cabinet have already briefed the PM.


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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Fight? How's fighting protests are the rights of the people ! While you shoot and kill peaceful protestors and even 9 year old girls blinded when grenades are thrown in their houses by your troops!
> 
> 
> Do i need to remind you how your troops have blinded and killed people in their houses ?
> 
> How about mass rapes of entire Kashmiri villages ?
> 
> Or attacking ambulances and toeturing patients ?
> 
> 
> How about you have some shame and stop the game of death you have been playing in IOK for the past 7 decades !
> Dawoos people.



Peaceful protesters? Try standing infront of a sponsored crowd of 1000 with stones in their hands. 

You will learn what peaceful actually means.


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## T90TankGuy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We don't send anyone.
> 
> Kashmiri has been turned into a mess by indian f1lth that has been committing attrocities for the past 7 decades ...
> 
> As for manure ..17 sacks of manure today.. Just the start of the new Kashmiri armed resistance!


There is a certain decorum which is followed when we refer to each others soldiers , it seems to have escaped you .

@waz @Slav Defence @WAJsal while we have out differences i have a huge problem when we disrespect another soldier who has just lost his life.


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## SilentSpeaker

*That is the difference between RAW backed terrorist attacks* (always on schools, universities, hospitals, courts and worship places to take more innocent lives) *and Kashmiri freedom fighters attack* (always avoiding civilian casualties). 

InshaALLAH more attacks will be coming soon.

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## Hellfire

Hello It's me said:


> Modi should give a fitting reply to the terrorist factory or else he will loose badly in the next election.



How exactly?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> Peaceful protesters? Try standing infront of a sponsored crowd of 1000 with stones in their hands.
> 
> You will learn what peaceful actually means.



Try getting your woman .. Your father tortured.. Your little brother killed.... And you humiliated and oppressed for decades...


Also I'm kinda shocked ... 1000s of protestors ? Is this a confession ...! 

And yet you lie when you it suits you..

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## Hellfire

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And I would suggest that you people do the same !
> 
> You can't expect others to remain respectful while you talk crap.
> 
> Respect is earned not demanded.. @Irfan Baloch.



Again I suggest that the member takes it into consideration and acts accordingly.


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## Kurlang

AshishDelhi said:


> Pakistanees just decide whether this is false flag or separatist attack.



Only time will tell, Indians have nasty habit of lying when it comes to kashmir. They want Kashmir but not Kashmiri people

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## New World

AshishDelhi said:


> You are a disgrace to shahadat of 4 freedom fighters. First talk to fellow Pakistanis and decide who were the attackers. Stop changing stance as per situation


Kashimiri are not stupid to attack on Army HQ at a time when whole world is taking their side.

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## scorpionx

jbgt90 said:


> This policy has its own limitations. Also the first thing is to calm the situation in Kashmir down. I wish for a more thought out policy rather than knee jerk reactions.
> As for accepting Azad Kashmir as own territory , it would mean us going back to the drawing board. and starting the process once again , this govt has so far not been very good in making strategic policies vis a vie Pakistan.


Modi's attempt to bring up Baluchistan and Pakistani held Kashmir was a melancholic blunder. Surely he was critically under pressure with the civilian unrest in the valley and tried to equal the game, without realizing the psychological advantage Pakistan enjoys in the Indian side and India do not in the Pakistani side. This attack is a roundabout response from Pakistan that situation in Baluchistan or West Kashmir is not same as Indian Kashmir.

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## T-Rex

SrNair said:


> Whatever it is,
> If this is a cross border terrorism,Pakistan would really face some tough question in UN and in diplomatic circles


*
Cross border terrorism, my foot!*

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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Try getting your woman .. Your father tortured.. Your little brother killed.... And you humiliated and oppressed for decades...
> 
> 
> Also I'm kinda shocked ... 1000s of protestors ? Is this a confession ...!
> 
> And yet you lie when you it suits you..



Please do away with the selective reading. I said "*sponsored" *protesters. If you have any trouble with the word sponsored then you can refer to the dictionary.


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## Kurlang

SrNair said:


> Whatever it is,
> If this is a cross border terrorism,Pakistan would really face some tough question in UN and in diplomatic circles


You sound funny. Its you who is going to face tough questions for the oppression of the kashmiri people.


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## New World

Spectre said:


> Just shut the fcuk up.


IA has just kill his own 17 men just to ease the international pressure.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> What can we do but fertilize our soil with the manure you keep sending. If you have complaints about the number of dead then perhaps you should get your own arse in Kashmir instead of sending drug addicted, illiterate proxies to do the dirty work.


The typical lying chutiya.


Spectre said:


> Peaceful protesters? Try standing infront of a sponsored crowd of 1000 with stones in their hands.
> 
> You will learn what peaceful actually means.



Try getting your woman .. Your father tortured.. Your little brother killed.... And you humiliated and oppressed for decades...


Also I'm kinda shocked ... 1000s of protestors ? And yet you lie when you it suits you..

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## Hellfire

jbgt90 said:


> This policy has its own limitations. Also the first thing is to calm the situation in Kashmir down. I wish for a more thought out policy rather than knee jerk reactions.
> As for accepting Azad Kashmir as own territory , it would mean us going back to the drawing board. and starting the process once again , this govt has so far not been very good in making strategic policies vis a vie Pakistan.



Escalation.That is the only thing that is going to happen.

At significant costs all around!

however, I am not espousing or suggesting .. merely commenting on what happens next. Just like Baluchistan point which I kept raising and people here were jumping and ultimately GoI raised it linking it with Kashmir.

Now my reading is of P0K as own territory. Limited conflict is something that India is prepared for in that region.

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## New World

AshishDelhi said:


> You are a disgrace to shahadat of 4 freedom fighters. First talk to fellow Pakistanis and decide who were the attackers. Stop changing stance as per situation


your army has just kill his own 17 armymen just to ease the pressure.


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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> Modi's attempt to bring up Baluchistan and Pakistani held Kashmir was a melancholic blunder. Surely he was critically under pressure with the civilian unrest in the valley and tried to equal the game, without realizing the psychological advantage Pakistan enjoys in the Indian side and India do not in the Pakistani side. This attack is a roundabout response from Pakistan that situation in Baluchistan or West Kashmir is not same as Indian Kashmir.



Modi advocated for Human rights in Balochistan and not independence. Equivalence was made on human rights issues.

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## Mrc

@mods please change tittle of thread. Attack on occupying army cannot be classifed as terror attack

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## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> Modi advocated for Human rights in Balochistan and not independence. Equivalence was made on human rights issues.


And what made Modi suddenly concerned of human rights issue in Baluchistan or kashmir? Its the popular unrest in the valley, isn't?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> Please do away with the selective reading. I said "*sponsored" *protesters. If you have any trouble with the word sponsored then you can refer to the dictionary.



"Sponsored"... Funny how Pakistan is "sponsoring" thousands of people to protest Indian attrocities and occupation right in the centre of occupied Kashmir!

While C's like yourself are killing unarmed people !

Here is a documentary from your own media ;







Time to declare this "sponsored" by ISI too!


How how about these;

















http://tune.pk/video/5209817/kashmir-mass-rape-victims-of-indian-soldiers

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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The typical lying chutiya.



Thanks for displaying the level of discourse you are comfortable with. Unfortunately I am not. 

Good Bye


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## T90TankGuy

scorpionx said:


> Modi's attempt to bring up Baluchistan and Pakistani held Kashmir was a melancholic blunder. Surely he was critically under pressure with the civilian unrest in the valley and tried to equal the game, without realizing the psychological advantage Pakistan enjoys in the Indian side and India do not in the Pakistani side. This attack is a roundabout response from Pakistan that Baluchistan or West Kashmir is not same as Indian Kashmir.


Like i said in another post on another thread , if you wished to intervene you should have done it quietly , not announce it from the ramparts of the red fort. 
This govt makes statements for public consumption , jingoistic and rhetorical but achieves little on the ground as they have not a police in place to deal with Pakistan . They seem ignorant of the issue. or just seem to be playing politics. 
Their biggest failure till date IMHO is not to be able to bring normalcy back to the valley . something which has not happened since the dark days of 94-95.

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## Sucha Kuggu

This is yet another RAW sponsored act to divert attention from UN's assembly's proceedings on Indian occupied Kashmir.Check the history, every time bilateral or international efforts has been taken to restore peace between two countries, India's intelligence agencies stage such incidences.


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## Signalian

hellfire said:


> Point 1. Militants approached in a circuitous route.
> Point 2. Int warnings non-sepcific were there
> Point 3. You know the terrain, one can pass through howsoever many troops you place. The location is in proximity to LOC.
> Point 4. There were no walls/partial walls. Contact took place at an entrance point. Stand off kills achieved. Very rapid access to barracks. Inside job (a local kashmiri employed there) is suspected and likely.
> Point 5. Irrelevant. More pertinent is that NS addresses UNGA in 3 days time, more of a chance to raise the spectre? If Indians start the usual chest thumping they play right into the hands of NS at UNGA! Smart move from Pak POV, but a real dumb move otherwise.



Mate, its your own homeland and India have 4.5 or so Lakhs troops deployed in the area. Which include Army, paramilitary, Police, Intelligence officials and government officials. If 4.5+ lakh troops cannot secure a a certain area inside homeland then why deploy and pay them.

1. If militants took a circuitous route, its a security lapse. This is no excuse. India boasts satellite imagery and UAV's.
2. Intel warnings are mostly non-specific but they are there to alert the forces deployed in area. Indian forces were not alert as can be seen.
3. I know the terrain, but this means that surveillance equipment is not sufficient, troops numbers are not sufficient, what about mining and walls on LOC. I heard LCH is to be/is deployed in kashmir and members say it has IR and NV and what not.
4. Like i analyzed already, the Brigade commander was not aware of security requirements for his troops as well as assets under his command, Court Martial !
5. So no Civilian Government official is responsible? Police reports to Civilian Government and usually Ministers of the area. 




> I actually think all your above points are counter-productive.



Mate, unfortunately, then expect more attacks. 



> And lastly, blaming Pakistan is the most stupidest thing we can do.



I have been saying this already but we know its bound to happen.

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## Kompromat

Retribution at its purest.

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## T90TankGuy

Mrc said:


> @mods please change tittle of thread. Attack on occupying army cannot be classifed as terror attack


Try saying that when the Taliban attacks your army .


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## Raul_AD

scorpionx said:


> Modi's attempt to bring up Baluchistan and Pakistani held Kashmir was a melancholic blunder. Surely he was critically under pressure with the civilian unrest in the valley and tried to equal the game, without realizing the psychological advantage Pakistan enjoys in the Indian side and India do not in the Pakistani side. This attack is a roundabout response from Pakistan that situation in Baluchistan or West Kashmir is not same as Indian Kashmir.



It is not. What is lacking is Iron Fist. First to crush insurgency mercilessly in kashmir second logistical support for P0K and Baluchistan. You cannot create logistics in matter of days.

His fault is that he talked before creating the infrastructure which goes into that talk.


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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> And what made Modi suddenly concerned of human rights issue in Baluchistan or kashmir? Its the popular unrest in the valley, isn't?



Actually no. He has been quite transparent and so has been the MEA - the message is directed to Pakistan that before leveling allegations on India they should get their own house in order. 

Kashmir unrest is superfluous to Baluchistan, it is the Pakistani response which warranted the concern.

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## Clutch

India has to recognize that the kashmiri people have legitimate greiviences. 

Personally i do not endorse violent struggles. Kashmiris would be more better off embracing a struggle for freedom based on non-violence through disobedience. Ironically they should take up Gandhi's mantra. If they do the kashmiris would shame India on a global scale. 

The kashmiris will have to endure the slaughter of kashmiri civilians for some time by the Indian army. To achieve freedom based on a nonviolent freedom.


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## Alpha BeeTee

I'm enjoying the Bhartis flared up on this thread.Emotions are on a high.

While the fanboys have blood in their eyes,the policy makers and implementers already know that it's just their game coming back to them.

I expect Indian stakeholders to let out some 'harsh' tone to satisfy the public outcry.Nothing more.

All these cries of making Pakistan pay in blood currency are emotional rants at best.Pakistan as nation has become war harderned and learn to thrive amongst hostilities.
We aint afraid of blood.We expect an attack on innocent civilians from your proxies.We'll face it and rise to the occasion as we always do.Such coward attacks never shake our morale as a nation.

As for military action on 'terrorist outfits' in Azad Kashmir,we all know it's a ridiculous idea.Pakistan has raised the costs for India too damn high for any such misadventure.

As for international pressure on Pakistan,India has already done it's best to 'isolate' and 'name and shame' Pakistan.Both havent worked as desired.Infact India is the villain for Kashmir in world news nowadays.

As for Balochistan card,that too has failed miserably gathering no support from anywhere at all.

So I see no option for India other than sitting back and revisiting it's cruel policies w.r.t Kashmir.

Untill that happens,I see more loss,shame and frustration for India.

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## VivasvatManu

This is an ACT OF WAR by pakistan. This is the SECOND attack on the Defence establishment and Shame on Modi if he takes it lying down.  

If Modi cannot even respond to this aggression by attacking pakistani and taking down two of their defence institutions then what good is our Entire Defence apparatus. 

Modi comes across as a world class fool who is getting his @ss kicked by pakistan on a regular basis. If he does not do something serious about this then I am going to campaign against him in the next election. 

Enough is enough.

It;s about time to call pakistans Nuclear Bluff.

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## T-Rex

Azamm said:


> This is yet another RAW sponsored act to divert attention from UN's assembly's proceedings on Indian occupied Kashmir.Check the history, every time bilateral or international efforts has been taken to restore peace between two countries, India's intelligence agencies stage such incidences.


*
It means those indian troops are not safe from their own intelligence agency. 17 indian soldiers have been killed, doesn't look like a false flag operation but yes, the timing is inappropriate but then again, Muslim mujaheddin all over the world are infamous for being dim witted.*

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## Indiran Chandiran

scorpionx said:


> Modi's attempt to bring up Baluchistan and Pakistani held Kashmir was a melancholic blunder. Surely he was critically under pressure with the civilian unrest in the valley and tried to equal the game, without realizing the psychological advantage Pakistan enjoys in the Indian side and India do not in the Pakistani side. This attack is a roundabout response from Pakistan that situation in Baluchistan or West Kashmir is not same as Indian Kashmir.




Pray , what kind of psychological edge does Pakistan enjoy in Kashmir over us that we will not if we build up adequate capacities in Balochistan ? The game in Balochistan has just begun. The one is Kashmir is decades old .This attack in Kashmir is ill timed from the separatists PoV especislly with the UNGA about to commence where the Indian side will milk it for all its worth while making the case of Pakistan inspired terrorists ruling the roost in J & K.

As far as the protests in South Kashmir go , it's business as usual.One hopes the army & other para militaries out there don't let this incident to get carried away .That would be playing in the hands of those separatist elements.

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## AUz

17 terrorists killed? Good job,

Oh wait, occupying soldiers dead,,,whateves..

I think it is a self sponsored attack so that indian army is given a free hand to launch full scale genocide of Kashmir's Muslim families.

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## New World

Raul_AD said:


> Time has arrived for final and decisive action to end all the enemies once in for all. India should not stop till it Breaks Pakistan into 4 pieces.


Killing Kashmiris and raping NE women was not enough for the Barbarian Army to please herself.

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## SrNair

T-Rex said:


> *Cross border terrorism, my foot!*



This is none of your business Bengali.


Kurlang said:


> You sound funny. Its you who is going to face tough questions for the oppression of the kashmiri people.




Let wait for few days.
If they are from Pakistan then things will spike up in to a new level.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> Thanks for displaying the level of discourse you are comfortable with. Unfortunately I am not.
> 
> Good Bye





So what should I call you after you talk about "arses" and manure ?

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## Max

AshishDelhi said:


> Pakistani are brave sons of hafeez saeed, mulla azhar, salahuddin and bit of afghan mulla Omar and bit of Arab osama. They will have their revenge in this life or next.



@Horus @Mugwop


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## New World

Spectre said:


> All the more shameful that you encourage children to fight while lounging comfortably in Islamabad.


did you not feel being shamful when killing the children in the valley.


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## Hello It's me

New World said:


> Killing Kashmiris and raping NE women was not enough for the Barbarian Army to please herself.


That's rich coming from a pakistani. have some shame


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## Jackdaws

A few days ago - 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-forces-Hizbul-chief/articleshow/53999910.cms


And this guy is roaming around free in Pakistan. 

And if you think, there won't be blowback - there definitely will be.


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## scorpionx

jbgt90 said:


> Like i said in another post on another thread , if you wished to intervene you should have done it quietly , not announce it from the ramparts of the red fort.
> This govt makes statements for public consumption , jingoistic and rhetorical but achieves little on the ground as they have not a police in place to deal with Pakistan . They seem ignorant of the issue. or just seem to be playing politics.
> Their biggest failure till date IMHO is not to be able to bring normalcy back to the valley . something which has not happened since the dark days of 94-95.


True. Another reason is the unrestricted secularist opportunism and the Hindutva chauvinist jingoism during Modi's regime are the things to blame. Both legitimized and strengthened each other. Too much emphasis on defining a singular national identity by the Sangh paribar and the tacit approval from the government only provoked the fanatics in the valley to channelize the Kashmiri movement as Islam versus rest of Hindu India. The government seem to be in complete oblivion what might the repercussions of such moronic statements by religious fanatics. They just played into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists in the valley.

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## New World

AUz said:


> 17 terrorists killed? Good job,
> 
> Oh wait, occupying soldiers dead,,,whateves..
> 
> I think it is a self sponsored attack so that indian army is given a free hand to launch full scale genocide of Kashmir's Muslim families.


it was not a attack by Kashmiris. this attack is orchestrated to ease the international pressure on india


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## Kurlang

I know what dehati aurat is going to do.


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## Clutch

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Pray , what kind of psychological edge does Pakistan enjoy in Kashmir over us that we will not if we build up adequate capacities in Balochistan ? The game in Balochistan has just begun. The one is Kashmir is decades old .This attack in Kashmir is ill timed from the separatists PoV especislly with the UNGA about to commence where the Indian side will milk it for all its worth while making the case of Pakistan inspired terrorists ruling the roost in J & K.
> 
> As far as the protests in South Kashmir go , it's business as usual.One hopes the army & other para militaries out there don't let this incident to get carried away .That would be playing in the hands of those separatist elements.




you don't get it. Baluchistan is a fabricated issue by India. Kashmiris have a legitimate concern.

India has to recognize that the kashmiri people have legitimate greiviences. 

Personally i do not endorse violent struggles. Kashmiris would be more better off embracing a struggle for freedom based on non-violence through disobedience. Ironically they should take up Gandhi's mantra. If they do the kashmiris would shame India on a global scale. 

The kashmiris will have to endure the slaughter of kashmiri civilians for some time by the Indian army. To achieve freedom based on a nonviolent freedom.


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## T-Rex

SrNair said:


> This is none of your business Bengali.



*This is an open forum, not your terror dungeon. If you can't tolerate opinions of people, stop visiting this forum, nobody is going to miss you!*

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## VivasvatManu

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Pray , what kind of psychological edge does Pakistan enjoy in Kashmir over us that we will not if we build up adequate capacities in Balochistan ? The game in Balochistan has just begun. The one is Kashmir is decades old .This attack in Kashmir is ill timed from the separatists PoV especislly with the UNGA about to commence where the Indian side will milk it for all its worth while making the case of Pakistan inspired terrorists ruling the roost in J & K.
> 
> As far as the protests in South Kashmir go , it's business as usual.One hopes the army & other para militaries out there don't let this incident to get carried away .That would be playing in the hands of those separatist elements.



All that talk is fine but we have not raised the stakes sufficiently for pakistan. 

India is being made to look like all talk and no action on the world stage. We really need to make deep strikes in pakistan to even out the scale and ensure that they take us seriously. 

Unless we show the spine to take strong action, No one in the world is going to agree with us and put sanctions on pakistan. 

Get the IAF to make a few strikes inside pakistan in retaliation.

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## Spectre

New World said:


> did you not feel being shamful when killing the children in the valley.



Study causality. You send them to fight, we kill them. Your action - our reaction.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hello It's me said:


> That's rich coming from a pakistani. have some shame



Rich coming from an Indian .. Should I post pics of woman protesting against Indian army rapes in the middle of India? Or even Indian military wives crying about forced wife swapping ?

Pathetic people.

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## New World

scionoftheindus said:


> Don't get me wrong mate..we al know how much soldiers are on the target list in kashmir..I only wished there should have been more safety measures and they should have been more cautious there.


for the safety measures. stop killing children and teenagers in the valley and remove the forces from there..

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## X-2.

SrNair said:


> Whatever it is,
> If this is a cross border terrorism,Pakistan would really face some tough question in UN and in diplomatic circles


Modi ji cancelled the un meeting lol
It could be false flag by Indian government to create sympathies in UN


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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> True. Another reason is the unrestricted secularist opportunism and the Hindutva chauvinist jingoism during Modi's regime are the things to blame. Both legitimized and strengthened each other. Too much emphasis on defining a singular national identity by the Sangh paribar and the tacit approval from the government only provoked the fanatics in the valley to channelize the Kashmiri movement as Islam versus rest of Hindu India. The government seem to be in complete oblivion what might the repercussions of such moronic statements by religious fanatics. They just played into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists in the valley.



Its rubbish if you are going to tie up Isamic fanatism to Hindutva. Kashmiri pandits were kicked out the Kashmir MUCH before any Hindutva movement took place.

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## scorpionx

Raul_AD said:


> It is not. What is lacking is Iron Fist. First to crush insurgency mercilessly in kashmir second logistical support for P0K and Baluchistan. You cannot create logistics in matter of days.
> 
> His fault is that he talked before creating the infrastructure which goes into that talk.


We already have given unrestricted leverage to the security forces in the valley to crush insurgency for years. End result is 17 martyrs which is simply disgusting.

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## T90TankGuy

scorpionx said:


> True. Another reason is the unrestricted secularist opportunism and the Hindutva chauvinist jingoism during Modi's regime are the things to blame. Both legitimized and strengthened each other. Too much emphasis on defining a singular national identity by the Sangh paribar and the tacit approval from the government only provoked the fanatics in the valley to channelize the Kashmiri movement as Islam versus rest of Hindu India. The government seem to be in complete oblivion what might the repercussions of such moronic statements by religious fanatics. They just played into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists in the valley.


This govt does not have the experience to handle this situation , and it wont listen to those who do as it may tarnish their so called hard line image, which is turning out to be a farce.

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## VivasvatManu

kasper95 said:


> RIP to the dead soldiers. b@$*@**$ who ever where behind this should be eliminated .



THey are sitting in Islamabad and Rawalpindi. What is India going to do about that ? 

Send a few more folders and cry to the US and China ?


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## Dungeness

I wouldn't call them terrorists if they are not targeting civilians. It is just guerrilla warfare.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Spectre said:


> Study causality. You send them to fight, we kill them. Your action - our reaction.



Send them ? Lol


Every Kashmiri is a Pakistani by default !


Every so called encounter is halted by Kashmiris .. Even Kashmiri fighter is accepted by Kashmiris and thousands of people offer prayers and bury him.

It's time you zip your trap and stop lying like a ...

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## [Bregs]

jbgt90 said:


> Like i said in another post on another thread , if you wished to intervene you should have done it quietly , not announce it from the ramparts of the red fort.
> This govt makes statements for public consumption , jingoistic and rhetorical but achieves little on the ground as they have not a police in place to deal with Pakistan . They seem ignorant of the issue. or just seem to be playing politics.
> Their biggest failure till date IMHO is not to be able to bring normalcy back to the valley . something which has not happened since the dark days of 94-95.




The govt has made lots of blunders and naive mistakes in there governance, they tried to be clever and innocent in implementing there agenda but public is smarter and now consequences of all these nuisances will continue to haunt you in times to come

Tying up with PDP for governance in j & k is another mistake which resulted in 4 distt, of south Kashmir not seeing any operation against terrorists because of softer approach by PDP

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## Hello It's me

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Rich coming from an Indian .. Should I post pics of woman protesting against Indian army rapes in the middle of India? Or even Indian military wives crying about forced wife swapping ?
> 
> Pathetic people.


Because Indian women CAN protest unlike pakistani women who have to bring 3 witnesses.

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## Indiran Chandiran

Clutch said:


> you don't get it. Baluchistan is a fabricated issue by India. Kashmiris have a legitimate concern.
> 
> India has to recognize that the kashmiri people have legitimate greiviences.
> 
> Personally i do not endorse violent struggles. Kashmiris would be more better off embracing a struggle for freedom based on non-violence through disobedience. Ironically they should take up Gandhi's mantra. If they do the kashmiris would shame India on a global scale.
> 
> The kashmiris will have to endure the slaughter of kashmiri civilians for some time by the Indian army. To achieve freedom based on a nonviolent freedom.



Replace Kashmir with Balochistan & you'd see what I see just as you're asking me to see what you see , irrespective of India's prospective role there .


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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> We already have given unrestricted leverage to the security forces in the valley to crush insurgency for years. End result is 17 martyrs which is simply disgusting.



There needs to be restricted leverage give to the forces to crush the insurgency OUTSIDE the valley. 

Otherwise this is going to continue forever under the protection of Nuclear umbrella.


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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Thats what I m saying....India benefits from this attack....High probability of false flag attack as u were feeling heat of UN regarding Kashmir...
> 
> Pakistan surely doesn't want to attack as we are going to raise this issue in UN to shame Indians...



Every attack on india is a false flag to blame pakistan, and every attack on pakistan is raw sazish?

Let me tell u something that u already know but pretend otherwise. 
The monsters that u created may or may not be in ur control. Going by the power people like hafeez saeed, masood azhar, syed sallahudin, and red mosque guy wield, i think they dictate ur foreign policy. So no doubt the army supports them and their political agenda going by the fact that the army provides covering fire while these scum cross over.

And the distinction that u make between good terrorist and bad, is gonna hurt u in the end, no matter how much u deny it.

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## Hello It's me

Dungeness said:


> I wouldn't call them terrorists if they are not targeting civilians. It is just guerrilla warfare.


people blowing themselves are not terrorists?

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## VivasvatManu

Dungeness said:


> I wouldn't call them terrorists if they are not targeting civilians. It is just guerrilla warfare.



Its not guerrilla warfare, its just Open War.

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## Jackdaws

Dungeness said:


> I wouldn't call them terrorists if they are not targeting civilians. It is just guerrilla warfare.



But you even call the Dalai Lama a terrorist. Is he a guerrilla warrior in your little Red Book?

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## scorpionx

VivasvatManu said:


> Its rubbish if you are going to tie up Isamic fanatism to Hindutva. Kashmiri pandits were kicked out the Kashmir MUCH before any Hindutva movement took place.


I was talking of recent times. Thinks seemed quite settled few years back but suddenly we are seeing an upsurge in insurgency. And what was the time when JKLF was ousted from Kashmiri freedom struggle and Hijbul became the flag bearer of it?

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## VivasvatManu

Hello It's me said:


> people blowing themselves are not terrorists?



Nope, It's a commando attack on an army installation. The soldiers just happens to die in that mission. Can we stop living in wonderland.


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## T90TankGuy

[Bregs] said:


> The govt has made lots of blunders and naive mistakes in there governance, they tried to be clever and innocent in implementing there agenda but public is smarter and now consequences of all these nuisances will continue to haunt you in times to come


Unfortunately they have set back relations with Pakistan at least two decades and have gotten the forces embroiled into another mid 90 like situation only because they could not find a political solution to Kashmir flaring up.

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## Hello It's me

New World said:


> View attachment 335533
> 
> View attachment 335534


I dare any pakistani women protest like this, they will have fatwa released next day from stone age mullahs, I bet if something of this sort had happened in pakistan, dozens of Malalas would have to take asylum in UK/US...Proud of Indian democracy to allow such protest without a dime of criticism from Indian public.

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## New World

Spectre said:


> Study causality. You send them to fight, we kill them. Your action - our reaction.


wow. study causality. you occupied their land, made them slave and now your killing them and their children..

#indialivingdenialmode

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## scorpionx

VivasvatManu said:


> There needs to be restricted leverage give to the forces to crush the insurgency OUTSIDE the valley.
> 
> Otherwise this is going to continue forever under the protection of Nuclear umbrella.


India does not posses a comprehensive homeland security system. If you really want an unrestricted retaliation on Pakistani side, are you prepare to bear the burns of it?

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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> I was talking of recent times. Thinks seemed quite settled few years back but suddenly we are seeing an upsurge in insurgency. And what was the time when JKLF was ousted from Kashmiri freedom struggle and Hijbul became the flag bearer of it?



IT does not matter. 

Pakistan is raising the stakes by instigating and feeding the violence in the valley to force India back to the Negotiations table and make India acknowledge Terrorism as a valid instrument of pakistani state policy. 

And so far, India is walking into that trap.


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## SilentSpeaker

SrNair said:


> Let wait for few days.
> If they are from Pakistan then things will spije up in to a new level.



You can only take innocent lives by attacking crowded places. You need to put one dhoti solider at every inch of the occupied land. Maybe then you can stop freedom fighters.


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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> We already have given unrestricted leverage to the security forces in the valley to crush insurgency for years. End result is 17 martyrs which is simply disgusting.



This is because of the nature of asymmetrical warfare. 

There is nothing you can do against an armed terrorist willing to blow himself to kingdom come in exchange for max casualties. 9/10 times we will be successful in stopping them but still be condemned by virtue of that one failure. 

Only thing which can stop this is inflicting unbearable costs on the enemy. 

There are two parties - Radicalized Indian Kashmiris and Pakistan deep state with their proxy. 

Radicalized Kashmiris should be destroyed since they are our weakest link. A nation doesn't brook armed dissent. Look at how they have been handled successfully historically - one must completely break them phsyically, demoralize them mentally so that any spark of resistance is stamped out. US did this in civil war, China did this in Tibet and other territories, Russia did this, British did this - but we have held back. 

Pakistan deep state and their proxies - They will keep on coming. Why? Because the Pakistani masters in their GHQ and Posh Army clubs feel no consequences from India. In their mind it is a win -win. They get rid of their undesirables by sending them to India. Unless and until they feel the pain personally - we will be at the receiving end. 

Regards

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## coffee_cup

Ryuzaki said:


> So what should India do?Send jihadis to Islamabad and Mirpur?Or increase presence in Balochistan?



You already have enough terror training camps in Afghanistan to be used for cross-border terrorism in Pakistan?

How many do you want more?

Wouldn't it be better for India to stop playing this game finally? Exporting terrorism for more than half a century in the neighborhood and crying out "I am the victim"?


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## [Bregs]

jbgt90 said:


> Unfortunately they have set back relations with Pakistan at least two decades and have gotten the forces embroiled into another mid 90 like situation only because they could not find a political solution to Kashmir flaring up.



For political solution to be successful you need statesman like leaders with mature n cool head. not someone who offers olive branch when not required and too much toughness when situation needs to be handled cleverly n deftly.

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## X-2.

war&peace said:


> Both will be treated good but surely if we three watch India-Bangladesh match, I will support Bangladesh and if it is Pak-India match, I'm sure my Bengali bro will support Pakistan
> 
> 
> Some of them are afraid since they don't know the legality of the issue. Indian occupation of Kashmir is illegal and if Kashmiri people fight and kill the indian terrorists, that's their right since it is their land and Indian army is illegally occupying it. Any existence of indian army installation and soldier is an occupant and a trespasser and should be treated as such.


They do support remember Asia cup

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## New World

Hello It's me said:


> I dare any pakistani women protest like this, they will have fatwa released next day from stone age mullahs, I bet if something of this sort had happened in pakistan, dozens of Malalas would have to take asylum in UK/US...Proud of Indian democracy to allow such protest without a dime of criticism from Indian public.


yes. proud of indian democrazy which support and protect those rapist. who have raped women infront of their own beloved.

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## Kurlang

@Horus , @mods, kindly change the title of this thread because indians are certified liers when it comes to Kashmir. Poor Kashmiri's fighiting for their right for self determination. Oppressed for more than 100 years.


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## T90TankGuy

[Bregs] said:


> For political solution to be successful you need statesman like leaders with mature n cool head. not someone who offers olive branch when not required and too much toughness when situation needs to be handled cleverly n deftly.


Politically speaking i see the PDP resigning and asking for new elections , its the only way the anger towards the powers to be will go down.

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## Spectre

@scorpionx Alternative to my earlier post is that we withdraw the army and give up Kashmir valley to Pakistan. 

Their is no middle ground - either we crush them or we surrender. 

What is more palatable in your opinion.

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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> India does not posses a comprehensive homeland security system. If you really want an unrestricted retaliation on Pakistani side, are you prepare to bear the burns of it?



We do not have a choice. You can sit in your house and cower all day or you can go out and raise the stakes so that the other side with think a 100 times before striking you down.

A cowards choice is recognized as a cowards choice All over the world. No body is stupid enough to think that India was "Wise" in letting our soldiers die in vain. 

Attack is the best defence and if you do not have the balls to attack, the we should just shut the fcuk up and learn to grin and bear it. No point in coming to pdf and bitch and whine.


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## Shot-Caller

This Indian narrative of cross border terrorism is getting old and stinky. If your forces are so incompetitive that they cant protect borders then give up Kashmir already.


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## Dungeness

Hello It's me said:


> people blowing themselves are not terrorists?



It is not unusual that soldiers blow themselves up during the war.

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## X-2.

Alhumdulillah Long live the freedom movement 
India need to understand aggression to our Kashmiris brothers will bring to Delhi only coffins

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## New World

Raul_AD said:


> Ask women of East Pakistan what does Rape means. Where your gallantry army raped more then 300,000 women, and surrendered when Indian army arrived.
> 
> Yes It was India's fault let those soldiers go without trial for war crimes.


and those things are said by IA.

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## T90TankGuy

[Bregs] said:


> For political solution to be successful you need statesman like leaders with mature n cool head. not someone who offers olive branch when not required and too much toughness when situation needs to be handled cleverly n deftly.


By the way where is the talent in this govt? baring a few most are people you would not leave your office to be supervised under.

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## SrNair

T-Rex said:


> *This is an open forum, not your terror dungeon. If you can't tolerate opinions of people, stop visiting this forum, nobody is going to miss you!*



So neither we miss you.
Donot quote me ,because this is non of your business.I dont have anything to say you.


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## Kurlang

I am sure that in a week or so a terrorist attack on Pakistani soil is going to get unfolded by RAW


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## VivasvatManu

jbgt90 said:


> Unfortunately they have set back relations with Pakistan at least two decades and have gotten the forces embroiled into another mid 90 like situation only because they could not find a political solution to Kashmir flaring up.



Ya right. Its all India's fault  

Why not just roll over and die ? That way we can put and end to this forever.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Mukunda Murthi Rao said:


> Every attack on india is a false flag to blame pakistan, and every attack on pakistan is raw sazish?
> 
> Let me tell u something that u already know but pretend otherwise.
> The monsters that u created may or may not be in ur control. Going by the power people like hafeez saeed, masood azhar, syed sallahudin, and red mosque guy wield, i think they dictate ur foreign policy. So no doubt the army supports them and their political agenda going by the fact that the army provides covering fire while these scum cross over.
> 
> And the distinction that u make between good terrorist and bad, is gonna hurt u in the end, no matter how much u deny it.



.....I thought you will raise some constructive argument rather than propaganda shoved down your throat by RSS thugs....

Pakistanis never idiotically criticize unless we have proof...Just recently suicide attack happened in Pakistan in mosque at Afghan border, did u see Pakistan blame you for that incident? Tell me? 

U killed Burhan wani....U are reaping what you sowed since 8 july....No need to cry now, bud...

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## coffee_cup

Raul_AD said:


> All were incompetent since 1947. First Nehru lost it by taking to UN and it is still pain in the @ss.
> 
> We never had the courage like what Pakistan did in 1965 though they lost it but still they tried. India never had the courage to cross the border and settle the issue once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 1965 on table in Tashkent.
> 
> We again lost it in 1971 on table when we were holding 95,000 POW.
> 
> We again lost it in 1980s when the insurgency started. We never had the courage to bitch slap the Pakistan, shut it Fcukup once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 1999 Kargil, we never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India, hence we will exterminate the source for once in for all.
> 
> We lost it in 2002 in Parliament attack and never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India we happily let attackers go off hold without inflicting even a single scar.
> 
> We lost it in 2008 in Mumbai attack and never had the courage to say it was attack on sovereignty of India, and we never inflicted any price on attackers by drenching it in blood.
> 
> Yes we are a coward nation because we were always governed by coward leaders. As a nation we lack the courage to take the fight to the enemy.



If neighbors started wars everytime a terrorist strike takes place on their soil, there would have been thousands of wars against India initiated by neighbors.

India's support of cross-border terrorism is more than half a century old, which has resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent lives being lost in neighboring countries. LTTE, Mukti Bahini, TTP, BLA etc etc.

Now as wrote earlier, just stop this nonsense finally of being the victim....

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## Dungeness

Jackdaws said:


> But you even call the Dalai Lama a terrorist. Is he a guerrilla warrior in your little Red Book?



When did Chinese government call Dalai Lama a terrorist?

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## T-72M1

Dungeness said:


> I wouldn't call them terrorists if they are not targeting civilians. It is just guerrilla warfare.


They ethnically cleansed the non muslim natives 25 years ago.


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## New World

Hello It's me said:


> We are only killing/will keep killing Pakistani pigs coming from across the border. High time govt should replace pellet guns with real bullets.
> 
> 
> Then these buggers compain that Indian hotels treat them like street dogs.



pity on you. Are you saying that Kashimiri are Pakistan?


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## VivasvatManu

jbgt90 said:


> By the way where is the talent in this govt? baring a few most are people you would not leave your office to be supervised under.



Where is the balls of this govt. ? I am sure 1.2 Billion people can produce talent. But we cannot seem to grow balls.


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## T-72M1

Dungeness said:


> When did Chinese government call Dalai Lama a terrorist?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/dalai-lama-prayers-tibetans-terrorism


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## smali183

New World said:


> Another Parliament attack like Drama is happening.. to divert world's attention from innocent killing of kashmiris.


 you are right..look at timing


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## [Bregs]

jbgt90 said:


> Politically speaking i see the PDP resigning and asking for new elections , its the only way the anger towards the powers to be will go down.




Exactly the number of causalities in attacks shows lethargic attitue. what you can expect when DM is giving statements like this 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...odi-manohar-parrikar/articleshow/54384455.cms

What an absurd statement from DM totally unwarranted, immature and childish

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## MAB

So unrest in Kashmir goes on for 2 months, Kashmiris come out in droves to protest. Yet it's always evil Pakistan in the end. Maybe its time India look internally at what their policies have created.

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## [Bregs]

jbgt90 said:


> By the way where is the talent in this govt? baring a few most are people you would not leave your office to be supervised under.



This has been the undoing of this govt the PM has some very good ideas to implement in various sectors but he do not has competent leaders and ministers to deliver

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## New World

smali183 said:


> you are right..look at timing


Modi is killing his own men to ease the international pressure.


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## coffee_cup

Pakistan must be vigilant. Security put on very high alert.


Expect very high probability of terrorist strike on soft targets on Schools, Hospitals, Mosques, Churches etc.
Indian terrorist proxies are going to increase their activities 100 fold...!

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## Raul_AD

scorpionx said:


> We already have given unrestricted leverage to the security forces in the valley to crush insurgency for years. End result is 17 martyrs which is simply disgusting.



What leverage you are talking about??? Huriats were having free run and doing what ever they wanted to do.

Who allowed Burhan Wani to rise upto that stature. 

How many local terrorist groups were operating in the valley with the support of local leaders.

How come money freely down pored in kashmir for helping insurgency and creating series of mosques which are not built by local funding, And now used for sheltering terrorists.

There are lot of answers to be given before poniting fingers towards armed forces controlling insurgency in kashmir.


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## SrNair

X-2. said:


> Modi ji cancelled the un meeting lol
> It could be false flag by Indian government to create sympathies in UN



Conspiracy theories wont work here my friend.
All its matters is evidence,and if the terrorists are from across the border ,Pakistan's responsible actions will seek and if they fail ,at least our GoI will guarantee severe diplomatic consequences.

RIP soldiers.
Your sacrifice will give more strength to our nation.



SilentSpeaker said:


> You can only take innocent lives by attacking crowded places. You need to put one dhoti solider at every inch of the occupied land. Maybe then you can stop freedom fighters.



Army was never been in crowd control this time.
And this is terrorism

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## scionoftheindus

New World said:


> for the safety measures. stop killing children and teenagers in the valley and remove the forces from there..


So that pakistan terrorists and kashmiri Islamist can take over kashmir?


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## VivasvatManu

Indiran Chandiran said:


> I don't believe that the answer to asymmetrical warfare lies in conventional strategies & responses .It lies in asymmetrical warfare .We have just initiated our strategy for Balochistan .It will take time to build momentum .Till then we do what we do best .Be patient & Fight the battle of attrition .
> 
> If need be escalate the fight by involving the NDS in it .Draw up a strategy under which all activities within the so called AK & GB & Balochistan will be in our remit & all activities pertaining to the TTP & other such organisations be under the NDS .



That is a whole load of Nehruvian rubbish. 

There is no Symetrical or Asymetrical warfare. There is ONLY WARFARE. 

And in warfare we choose the weapon best suited to help us WIN. WINNING is the ONLY Objective. 

As of today, IAF is far superior to the PAF. We need to mobilise the IAF and take out pakistani assets so that they are weakened considerably. 

We are FOOLS if we are planning to fight this war by pakistani rules. We are worse that that, we are Morons. 

We need to Define our OWN RULES. That is how a battle and a war is won. Modi of all people should know this.

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## ranjeet

Brace yourself .... condemnation is back .. more strongly than before !! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777417302912430080

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## X-2.

SrNair said:


> Conspiracy theories wont work here my friend.
> All its matters is evidence,and if the terrorists are from across the border ,Pakistan's responsible actions will seek and if they fail ,at least our GoI will guarantee severe diplomatic consequences.
> 
> RIP soldiers.
> Your sacrifice will give more strength to our nation.


You are already imposing allegations on Pakistan lol
Its much look of false flag by Indians to manipulate against Pakistan in UN lol I'm much sure about this

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## Dungeness

T-72M1 said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/dalai-lama-prayers-tibetans-terrorism



Chinese accused him of glorifying terrorists, but did not call him terrorist. You may want to read more carefully.

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## salarsikander

trident2010 said:


> RIP to the soldiers.
> 
> Pakistan is the epicentre of terrorism and it is proved again. ISI does not want any peace either in Kashmir or in Baluchistan.


How has whatever B.S you said been proven ?

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## coffee_cup

Hello It's me said:


> We are only killing/will keep killing *Pakistani pigs* coming from across the border. High time govt should replace pellet guns with real bullets.
> 
> 
> Then these buggers compain that Indian hotels treat them like street dogs.



@waz @Horus @Irfan Baloch : Why is this stupid Indian allowed to post on PDF?

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## VivasvatManu

ranjeet said:


> Brace yourself .... condemnation is back .. more strongly than before !!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777417302912430080



And I will spit on Modi's face if he continues to play this farce. 

I hope the rest of India follows me so that the message goes out LOUD and CLEAR.


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## New World

VivasvatManu said:


> Ya right. Its all India's fault
> 
> Why not just roll over and die ? That way we can put and end to this forever.


@jbgt90 now you are ISI agent.


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## Jackdaws

Dungeness said:


> When did Chinese government call Dalai Lama a terrorist?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/dalai-lama-prayers-tibetans-terrorism


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## Russell

NDTV saying 12 of the 17 died when their tents caught fire after the grenade attacks.

If this true...what a horrible way to die. Not that any death is pleasant.


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## Indiran Chandiran

VivasvatManu said:


> That is a whole load of Nehruvian rubbish.
> 
> There is no Symetrical or Asymetrical warfare. There is ONLY WARFARE.
> 
> And in warfare we choose the weapon best suited to help us WIN. WINNING is the ONLY Objective.
> 
> As of today, IAF is far superior to the PAF. We need to mobilise the IAF and take out pakistani assets so that they are weakened considerably.
> 
> We are FOOLS if we are planning to fight this war by pakistani rules. We are worse that that, we are Morons.
> 
> We need to Define our OWN RULES. That is how a battle and a war is won. Modi of all people should know this.




Please define the end game .The purpose of such air strikes , the targets, the Aftermath , the consequences.Without a clear goal in mind this is just hitting out wildly .Not exactly a wise thing to do.Revenge is a dish which tastes best when cold.


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## New World

scionoftheindus said:


> So that pakistan terrorists and kashmiri Islamist can take over kashmir?


when did Kashimiri became Islamists.
and by the way their land their choice. why are you occupying their land,


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## Hellfire

scorpionx said:


> ............only provoked the fanatics in the valley to channelize the Kashmiri movement as Islam versus rest of Hindu India. The government seem to be in complete oblivion what might the repercussions of such moronic statements by religious fanatics. They just played into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists in the valley.



You are mightily off on that account. You have completely missed the deliberate strategy under UPA and as a GoI to isolate the movement into an Islamic movement.

It plays into our hands. No one cares for an islamist. It is what I have been saying - that Kashmiris are idiots when they play into the Islamism. If they really wanted anything tangible, they would do well to stick to non-violent and sufi version.

Am surprised that you have isolated it into a sangh parivar et al POV. You must read the North-Eastern Insurgency and the role played by RSS in checking it to a certain extent along with Bengalis and Marwaris.

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## shah1398

SrNair said:


> Whatever it is,
> If this is a cross border terrorism,Pakistan would really face some tough question in UN and in diplomatic circles



So apparently Pakistan is damn fool enough to have chosen such time line so that it can deliberately hurt itself by giving a wild card to India when showdown of words between Pakistan and India is currently in full swing at UN? Tell me who ll be trying to take max benefit of this very incident at UN?



salarsikander said:


> How has whatever B.S you said been proven ?



Ditto words from last day showdown at UN copied by dude here. Seems someone would not even bother to change the script a lil bit. Now I get why Bollywood copies Hollywood movies like from head to toe as it is.

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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> .....I thought you will raise some constructive argument rather than propaganda shoved down your throat by RSS thugs....
> 
> Pakistanis never idiotically criticize unless we have proof...Just recently suicide attack happened in Pakistan in mosque at Afghan border, did u see Pakistan blame you for that incident? Tell me?
> 
> U killed Burhan wani....U are reaping what you sowed since 8 july....No need to cry now, bud...



Well i did see a lot of pakistanis blame raw for it. 
And burhan wani picked up a gun, he was bound to die sooner or later.
U havent seen geelani or mirwaiz being killed or even tortured, have u? Guess why?
Coz they have been peaceful, although have instigated violence but have been protected by the indian forces ourselves.


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## Dungeness

Jackdaws said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/dalai-lama-prayers-tibetans-terrorism



You are a little to late to post the same article as post # 93.

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## VivasvatManu

Russell said:


> NDTV saying 12 of the 17 died when their tents caught fire after the grenade attacks.
> 
> If this true...what a horrible way to die. Not that any death is pleasant.



We all die a thousand deaths when this happens. 

Only we seem to have lost all shame and honour or even dignity. 

Mahatma Gandhi said * "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."*

How many times will we cover up our impotence by making bombastic speeches.


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## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> This is because of the nature of asymmetrical warfare.
> 
> There is nothing you can do against an armed terrorist willing to blow himself to kingdom come in exchange for max casualties. 9/10 times we will be successful in stopping them but still be condemned by virtue of that one failure.
> 
> Only thing which can stop this is inflicting unbearable costs on the enemy.
> 
> There are two parties - Radicalized Indian Kashmiris and Pakistan deep state with their proxy.
> 
> Radicalized Kashmiris should be destroyed since they are our weakest link. A nation doesn't brook armed dissent. Look at how they have been handled successfully historically - one must completely break them phsyically, demoralize them mentally so that any spark of resistance is stamped out. US did this in civil war, China did this in Tibet and other territories, Russia did this, British did this - but we have held back.
> 
> Pakistan deep state and their proxies - They will keep on coming. Why? Because the Pakistani masters in their GHQ and Posh Army clubs feel no consequences from India. In their mind it is a win -win. They get rid of their undesirables by sending them to India. Unless and until they feel the pain personally - we will be at the receiving end.
> 
> Regards


I have read this argument in another of your posts. The appeal to repeat an American civil war or Tibetan experience is lucrative but please remember this is not USA or Tibet. Kashmir's fate is entangled with Pakistan unlike Tibet which was neither a disputed territory nor any third party interest was involved. The absence of a formidable enemy with entangled interest was the secret of Chinese success in Tibet, Russians in Central Asia. We have tried similar 'iron fist' treatment for decades now. Did it pay off? If not then lets start scratching heads again and try to sort out the blunders we have made again and again. We got plenty of opportunities before. Every war success was lost on truce papers. Every strategic advantage won by military was just thrown away by political leaders, be it LBS or IG. We got similar opportunity in '99, just didn't have enough guts to implement it undoing the errors in the past.

Pakistan has learnt its mistakes and they are not going to give another chance by resorting to military solution of Kashmir again. India still have clung to its old, unaltered policy of the 90's, i.e rigged election, bribing and security excesses. It has simply done nothing to win the sympathies of the valley which is brilliantly exploited by Pakistan. The only way to answer the proxy war is a hard-soft stance and more emphasis on good governance. Otherwise we will just sleepwalk into another strategic blunder.

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## Jackdaws

Dungeness said:


> Chinese accused him of glorifying terrorists, but did not call him terrorist. You may want to read more carefully.


You need to read it carefully. The Chinese Govt. accused him of "*terrorism* in disguise". Ergo?


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## VivasvatManu

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Please define the end game .The purpose of such air strikes , the targets, the Aftermath , the consequences.Without a clear goal in mind this is just hitting out wildly .Not exactly a wise thing to do.Revenge is a dish which tastes best when cold.



The end game is to RAISE THE STAKES for the pakistanis. 

What part of that do you not understand ? 

To make sure those plotting the attacking sitting in AC rooms in Islamabad and Rawalpindi FEEL THE HEAT. 

I don't give a fcuk about Revenge. I care about putting an END to this Nonsense ASAP. 

Revenge is for immature fools.

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## salarsikander

trident2010 said:


> From Osama bin laden to other taliban terrorists were sheltered by ISI and pak army, nothing to prove now.
> World knows the glorious works of pakistan, keep up the tradition lads


Stop with that Dehati Aurat statement World's knows worlds knows that. BTW did you see Osama's body ? And what Oter Taliban Terrorists have been sheltered by us ?

Be Specific in your allegations

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## $@rJen

Rip...

Thats it... im tried gov handling it softly


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## X-2.

shah1398 said:


> So apparently Pakistan is damn fool enough to have chosen such time line so that it can deliberately hurt itself by giving a wild card to India when showdown of words between Pakistan and India is currently in full swing at UN? Tell me who ll be trying to take max benefit of this very incident at UN?
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto words from last day showdown at UN copied by dude here. Seems some someone would not even bother to change the script a lil bit. Now I get why Bollywood copies Hollywood movies like from head to toe as it is.


It's false flag before un assembly by Indian lobby

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## New World

litefire said:


> RIP to the our brave soldiers.
> It is a big loss for all of us.
> Those who were responsible for this attack will pay a heavy price.
> Things are going to be very serious now.
> Army Chief anf DM are going to Kashmir.
> HM has cancelled his foreign trips, the NSA and the cabinet have already briefed the PM.


RIP to the innocent Kashmiri children and teenagers.
it is a big loss for the humanity that children and teenagers are being killed.
those who are responsible for their death will pay a heavy price.
things are already serious in the Kashmir.

and for the 17 army men. they were killed by their own institute and ministers to ease the international pressure on them.


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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> I have read this argument in another of your posts. The appeal to repeat an American civil war or Tibetan experience is lucrative but please remember this is not USA or Tibet. Kashmir's fate is entangled with Pakistan unlike Tibet which was neither a disputed territory nor any third party interest was involved. The absence of a formidable enemy with entangled interest was the secret of Chinese success in Tibet, Russians in Central Asia. We have tried similar 'iron fist' treatment for decades now. Did it pay off? If not then lets start scratching heads again and try to sort out the blunders we have made again and again. We got plenty of opportunities before. Every war success was lost on truce papers. Every strategic advantage won by military was just thrown away by political leaders, be it LBS or IG. We got similar opportunity in '99, just didn't have enough guts to implement it undoing the errors in the past.
> 
> Pakistan has learnt its mistakes and they are not going to give another chance by resorting to military solution of Kashmir again. India still have clung to its old, unaltered policy of the 90's, i.e rigged election, bribing and security excesses. It has simply done nothing to win the sympathies of the valley which is brilliantly exploited by Pakistan. The only way to answer the proxy war is a hard-soft stance and more emphasis on good governance. Otherwise we will just sleepwalk into another strategic blunder.



The ONLY people who has not learnt their lessons is India. 

We seems to be repeating the same thing again and again in the hopes of a different solution.. The Very definition of Insanity.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

AshishDelhi said:


> Well if a Bangladeshi and an Indian visit Pakistan then am sure an Indian will be treated better, will have more in common to talk about. I don't know why some Bangladeshi act as if they are part of Pakistan and try to look like mujahideens




TBH Pakistanis have very little in common with both Bangladeshis & indians.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Its quiet hilarious to watch the reaction of some Indian keyboard warriors who are dreaming about attacking Pakistan lol 
Its easy to say this on internet sitting behind computer chair

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## Indiran Chandiran

VivasvatManu said:


> The end game is to RAISE THE STAKES for the pakistanis.
> 
> What part of that do you not understand ?
> 
> To make sure those plotting the attacking sitting in AC rooms in Islamabad and Rawalpindi FEEL THE HEAT.
> 
> I don't give a fcuk about Revenge. I care about putting an END to this Nonsense ASAP.
> 
> Revenge is for immature fools.




That's exactly what I proposed in my earlier posts .This requires calm & cool reasoning .Do read them in leisure .Not actions spurred by impulsive thoughts.


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## Raul_AD

coffee_cup said:


> If neighbors started wars everytime a terrorist strike takes place on their soil, there would have been thousands of wars against India initiated by neighbors.
> 
> India's support of cross-border terrorism is more than half a century old, which has resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent lives being lost in neighboring countries. LTTE, Mukti Bahini, TTP, BLA etc etc.
> 
> Now as wrote earlier, just stop this nonsense finally of being the victim....



Its pakistan every time be it India or Afghanistan. Yes pakistan needs a lesson not to meddle in the internal matters of others.


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## T90TankGuy

I have got to leave , teens have taken over the thread.

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## X-2.

trident2010 said:


> From Osama bin laden to other taliban terrorists were sheltered by ISI and pak army, nothing to prove now.
> World knows the glorious works of pakistan, keep up the tradition lads


Do u have eyes to see and fingers to type on Google how many afgan Talibans are in Pakistani jail and how many handed over to USA or Afghanistan government

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## Mo12

Lets see if Modi has balls to go attack Pakistan for sending terrorists to India once again.


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## New World

Raul_AD said:


> Again a Pakistani in denial mode??? Google and read your own horrendous acts.


lol. whole region was no go area. only IA and EAM was calling the shot.
and what about to those gurillas which were trained by IA and were given the PA's uniform to kill and rape the bengalis.

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## Alpha BeeTee

Hello It's me said:


> people blowing themselves are not terrorists?



Not neccessarily.


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## VivasvatManu

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Its quiet hilarious to watch the reaction of some Indian keyboard warriors who are dreaming about attacking Pakistan lol
> Its easy to say this on internet sitting behind computer chair



Don't worry, I am not dreaming, I am ADVOCATING it. 

In a democracy that is how consensus get built. and when its built, you will know it.


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## Dungeness

Jackdaws said:


> You need to read it carefully. The Chinese Govt. accused him of "*terrorism* in disguise". Ergo?



You are quoting "the guardian" or you are quoting Chinese Gov? You do need to improve your English comprehension.

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## coffee_cup

Raul_AD said:


> Its pakistan every time be it India or Afghanistan. Yes pakistan needs a lesson not to meddle in the internal matters of others.



Occupied Kashmir is not part of India.

And using terrorism as a state policy - as India has been doing for more than the last half century - is bound to backfire at some point in time.

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## salarsikander

trident2010 said:


> Lol .. chill mate. Now enjoy the snakes pak army and isi nurtured to bite India, Afganistan, Baluchistan and many other parts of the world.


Lol. Baluchistan Is part of Pakistan Unlike IOK. 

Secondly, Where is the proof of your allegations ? Or would you like to chicken out now ?

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## Tipu7

Militants were not Pakistani.
They were Kashmiri ......
It's wise to call them Rebels instead of cross border militant.


Tameem said:


> *The Associated Press* ‏@AP  1h1 hour ago
> BREAKING: A top army officer says 17 soldiers, 4 rebels dead in attack on Indian army base in Kashmir.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The world Now acknowledges Kashmir's disputed nature and her people indigenous movement finally!!


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## The Sandman

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Its quiet hilarious to watch the reaction of some Indian keyboard warriors who are dreaming about attacking Pakistan lol
> Its easy to say this on internet sitting behind computer chair


This is nothing check out twitter 
https://twitter.com/hashtag/UriAttack?src=tren

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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> I have read this argument in another of your posts. The appeal to repeat an American civil war or Tibetan experience is lucrative but please remember this is not USA or Tibet. Kashmir's fate is entangled with Pakistan unlike Tibet which was neither a disputed territory nor any third party interest was involved. The absence of a formidable enemy with entangled interest was the secret of Chinese success in Tibet, Russians in Central Asia. We have tried similar 'iron fist' treatment for decades now. Did it pay off? If not then lets start scratching heads again and try to sort out the blunders we have made again and again. We got plenty of opportunities before. Every war success was lost on truce papers. Every strategic advantage won by military was just thrown away by political leaders, be it LBS or IG. We got similar opportunity in '99, just didn't have enough guts to implement it undoing the errors in the past.
> 
> Pakistan has learnt its mistakes and they are not going to give another chance by resorting to military solution of Kashmir again. India still have clung to its old, unaltered policy of the 90's, i.e rigged election, bribing and security excesses. It has simply done nothing to win the sympathies of the valley which is brilliantly exploited by Pakistan. The only way to answer the proxy war is a hard-soft stance and more emphasis on good governance. Otherwise we will just sleepwalk into another strategic blunder.



No sir. We just dillydally around the root cause

There is a section of Kashmiris who want azadi irrespective of what India does or does not do not *because of lack of good governance or amenities or basic freedom but because of their religious affiliations. *

The nature of beast we face is that it will not be satisfied till it get what it wants - Merger with Pakistan or an ideological Sunni Islamic state. . Throughout the world trend is clear - Muslims are getting increasingly radicalized. While most of us might tip toe around it - condition of erstwhile moderately tolerant nations like Turkey show us clearly instead of greater inclusion-ism they want greater exclusion ism

We have to acknowledge this problem only then we can arrive at a solution.

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## Grevion

Its very sad to see some people justifying the terrorists attacks and the killings of the uniform soldiers here.


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## PakSword

trident2010 said:


> Lol .. chill mate. Now enjoy the snakes pak army and isi nurtured to bite India, Afganistan, Baluchistan and many other parts of the world.




Don't mention Baluchistan. It's none of your business. But yes, IOK is our business.

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## jaunty

Sad news. RIP jawans. 

Wonder if Modi would invite ISI to investigate this like Pathankot!

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## shah1398

X-2. said:


> It's false flag before un assembly by Indian lobby



And people out there still live in denial. I will have a damn hard time accepting any statement that says how a heavily guarded HQ was breached so easily when the threat level over there was red 24/7 and how they made till administrative HQ? Either the attackers were superior to the so called world class Army or the said Army itself is in shambles. Its time they start asking Mr. Doval that why their soldiers were so ruthlessly killed by own guys.


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## VivasvatManu

Indiran Chandiran said:


> That's exactly what I proposed in my earlier posts .This requires calm & cool reasoning .Do read them in leisure .Not actions spurred by impulsive thoughts.



lol... what impulsive thought ? 

You think this is the first time they have done this or the first time I have thought about it ? 

A ironsmith strikes when the iron is hot, not when the iron is cold and he has given enough time to 'contemplate' action. 

Practical realities is a lot different from theoretical solutions. It easier to seek forgiveness than take permission. 

If India wants to do something, then it needs to use this OPPORTUNITY to take action and THEN seek forgiveness. '

Why did you think the US took the opportunity of 9/11 to attack Iraq ? Did you really think they though they would find WMD in Iraq ? 

They are practical people, not theoretical idealists like Indians.

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## scorpionx

hellfire said:


> You are mightily off on that account. You have completely missed the deliberate strategy under UPA and as a GoI to isolate the movement into an Islamic movement.
> 
> It plays into our hands. No one cares for an islamist. It is what I have been saying - that Kashmiris are idiots when they play into the Islamism. If they really wanted anything tangible, they would do well to stick to non-violent and sufi version.
> 
> Am surprised that you have isolated it into a sangh parivar et al POV. You must read the North-Eastern Insurgency and the role played by RSS in checking it to a certain extent along with Bengalis and Marwaris.


You are misreading my post. The Insurgency in valley and Hindu political fundamentalism, both were independent of each other during their early days in the 90's. But what has happened since then is both had fed and furthered each other. It was quite convenient for the Islamic fundamentalists in the valley to convince the people that a state that can not protect an ancient mosque and deliberately keeps its eyes closed and often patronize calculated religious atrocities does not deserve to rule a necessarily Muslim province. The religious polarization becomes much easier then. Isn't?

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## New World

Spectre said:


> @scorpionx Alternative to my earlier post is that we withdraw the army and give up Kashmir valley to Pakistan.
> 
> Their is no middle ground - either we crush them or we surrender.
> 
> What is more palatable in your opinion.


there is always a middle ground. you just have to accept it.
living in denial not helpful,


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

VivasvatManu said:


> Don't worry, I am not dreaming, I am ADVOCATING it.
> 
> In a democracy that is how consensus get built. and when its built, you will know it.


You should do it yourself instead of advocating it . You all keyboard warriors were wishing same in all previous incident but it never happened. Reality is not same as bollywood movie


----------



## scionoftheindus

New World said:


> when did Kashimiri became Isindulg.
> nd by the way their land their choice. why are you occupying their land,


It's their land only as long as they wish to live with india..the moment they indulge in treason, kashmir ceases to be their land.


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## SirHatesALot

Where is our Nationalist Govt?
I am waiting for Mr 56inch response to this.


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## scionoftheindus

VivasvatManu said:


> The end game is to RAISE THE STAKES for the pakistanis.
> 
> What part of that do you not understand ?
> 
> To make sure those plotting the attacking sitting in AC rooms in Islamabad and Rawalpindi FEEL THE HEAT.
> 
> I don't give a fcuk about Revenge. I care about putting an END to this Nonsense ASAP.
> 
> Revenge is for immature fools.


What would you do now, if you were in modis shoes now?


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## VivasvatManu

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You should do it yourself instead of advocating it . You all keyboard warriors were wishing same in all previous incident but it never happened. Reality is not same as bollowood movie



Nope, I am going to use my time to build up consensus and Advocate a strike on pakistan in all the media outlets I can find

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## New World

VivasvatManu said:


> lol... what impulsive thought ?
> 
> You think this is the first time they have done this or the first time I have thought about it ?
> 
> A ironsmith strikes when the iron is hot, not when the iron is cold and he has given enough time to 'contemplate' action.
> 
> Practical realities is a lot different from theoretical solutions. It easier to seek forgiveness than take permission.
> 
> If India wants to do something, then it needs to use this OPPORTUNITY to take action and THEN seek forgiveness. '
> 
> Why did you think the US took the opportunity of 9/11 to attack Iraq ? Did you really think they though they would find WMD in Iraq ?
> 
> They are practical people, not theoretical idealists like Indians.


you want to be a practical to destroy the whole world within a minutes.


----------



## Indiran Chandiran

scorpionx said:


> You are misreading my post. The Insurgency in valley and Hindu political fundamentalism, both were independent of each other during their early days in the 90's. But what has happened since then is both had fed and furthered each other. It was quite convenient for the Islamic fundamentalists in the valley to convince the people that a state that can not protect an ancient mosque and deliberately keeps its eyes closed and often patronize calculated religious atrocities does not deserve to rule. The religious polarization becomes much easier then. Isn't?




By that token , recent events in our immediate neighbourhood , the ME & Europe have also polarised Western governments & the rest of of the world .Islamic based "freedom struggles " have lost whatever respectability they held earlier.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

trident2010 said:


> From Osama bin laden to other taliban terrorists were sheltered by ISI and pak army, nothing to prove now.
> World knows the glorious works of pakistan, keep up the tradition lads




So if what you say is true than Pakistan must be a military superpower. Pakistan is terrorising the world yet the nation of Pakistan is existing and thriving. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria & Libya have been destroyed yet Pakistan is still standing tall and firm. The american's don't even want to invade us. They know what would be waiting for them. Pakistan is even managing to terrorize nations that are at least 7× bigger than itself who have the full backing of the West & Russia. That is a remarkable achievement


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## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> From Osama bin laden to other taliban terrorists were sheltered by ISI and pak army, nothing to prove now.
> World knows the glorious works of pakistan, keep up the tradition lads



Chankiya followers plotting and planning again only to see more failurez heading their way.

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## coffee_cup

VivasvatManu said:


> 1. Make preparations to make a strike and send a strong message to pakistan and the world.
> 
> 2. Then use this threat of war to pressure the world to isolate pakistan further and make the world take stronger action against pakistan.
> 
> 3. The world will take action ONLY if they SEE US ACT. There is no other way out.
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn ....... ............ to your nuclear blackmail.



Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...

Are we going to see the repeat of 2002 yet again?

Billions of dollars better spent on poor of India are going to get lost into the thin air to satisfy ego of some fanatic hindus... YET AGAIN!

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## New World

scionoftheindus said:


> It's their land only as long as they wish to live with india..the moment they indulge in treason, kashmir ceases to be their land.


its their land and its their choice live with whom they want. 

india has occupied the land and now acting like a occupying force. 

india's action are same like of Hitler against Jews and changez khan against the everything which came into his way.


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## ejaz007

http://www.bbc.com/urdu/regional/2016/09/160918_kashmir_uri_attack_mb


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## New Resolve

The UN needs to step in, this cycle of tit for tat violence in occupied kashmir is out of control. Indian Occupation Forces need to be pulled out of the Valley and Peace keepers need to be deployed.


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## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> No sir. We just dillydally around the root cause
> 
> There is a section of Kashmiris who want azadi irrespective of what India does or does not do not *because of lack of good governance or amenities or basic freedom but because of their religious affiliations. *
> 
> The nature of beast we face is that it will not be satisfied till it get what it wants - Merger with Pakistan or an ideological Sunni Islamic state. . Throughout the world trend is clear - Muslims are getting increasingly radicalized. While most of us might tip toe around it - condition of erstwhile moderately tolerant nations like Turkey show us clearly instead of greater inclusion-ism they want greater exclusion ism
> 
> We have to acknowledge this problem only then we can arrive at a solution.


Sadly and unmistakably the Islamic radicals have taken over. But this was not the case before. Before 90's struggle that was mostly secular in objective have become obsessed with Islamic overtones making it easier for Hindutva zealots (not you) to set the locus of the movement as per their on convenience. The Islamic radicalism can be brought to kneel not just by guns (and its only aggravates the fundamentalist aspirations), but by complete administrative reforms which we lacked so far.

Regards.


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## Hello It's me

New Resolve said:


> The UN needs to step in, this cycle of tit for tat violence in occupied kashmir is out of control.


why? because pakistan did a terrorist attack in Kashmir so UN need to intervene?


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Mukunda Murthi Rao said:


> Well i did see a lot of pakistanis blame raw for it.
> And burhan wani picked up a gun, he was bound to die sooner or later.
> U havent seen geelani or mirwaiz being killed or even tortured, have u? Guess why?
> Coz they have been peaceful, although have instigated violence but have been protected by the indian forces ourselves.



Many Indians also do and post rubbish about Pakistan in a lot of forums.Why going far? Look into PDF.....Does it matter? State talks and it is what matter...

Burhan wani, was a younger one, he can be neutralized in lot of other ways but you in your arrogance killed him, hence started chain reaction...

Hang that guy who gave the idea of killing Burhan Wani.....He is the main dog in this all mess...



Hello It's me said:


> why? because pakistan did a terrorist attack in Kashmir so UN need to intervene?



Just like India did terrorist attack in mosque killing 23 Pakistanis at Afghan border recently? We can play...

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## VivasvatManu

scorpionx said:


> Sadly and unmistakably the Islamic radicals have taken over. But this was not the case before. Before 90's struggle that was mostly secular in objective have become obsessed with Islamic overtones making it easier for Hindutva zealots (not you) to set the locus of the movement as per their on convenience. The Islamic radicalism can be brought to kneel not just by guns (and its only aggravates the fundamentalist aspirations), but by complete administrative reforms which we lacked so far.
> 
> Regards.



For god sake can we put and end to this mental masturbation. The state govt. will deal with the situation in their own incompetent way. Stop trying to drag in Hindutva into this to complement your prejudice.

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## RepublicOk

RIP to the martyrs. 

We have been too soft on the separatists.

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## Grevion

New World said:


> RIP to the innocent Kashmiri children and teenagers.
> it is a big loss for the humanity that children and teenagers are being killed.
> those who are responsible for their death will pay a heavy price.
> things are already serious in the Kashmir.
> 
> and for the 17 army men. they were killed by their own institute and ministers to ease the international pressure on them.


Grow up kiddo


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## New Resolve

Hello It's me said:


> why? because pakistan did a terrorist attack in Kashmir so UN need to intervene?



You just dont get it, Bollywood is make believe, once in a while you guys should see reality as well. You are angry and trying to blame this on the whole world but you have to stop is cycle of violence that is hurting kashmiris and indian occupation forces. UN resolutions are the only way forward.


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## coffee_cup

VivasvatManu said:


> Yawwwnnnn............. to your threats and worries.



Who is threatening whom here? Wanna read your own previous posts first before commenting further?


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## Hello It's me

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Just like India did terrorist attack in mosque killing 23 Pakistanis at Afghan border recently? We can play...


How India, a Hindu Majority country, is able to convince bunch of muslims to blow themselves in a mosque in the name of Allah is beyond my understanding. If you believe that terrorist attacks in pakistan is done by anyone else but pakistani themselves then you are a typical pakistani.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

SirHatesALot said:


> Where is our Nationalist Govt?
> I am waiting for Mr 56inch response to this.




ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. There will be a lot of big talk and perhaps covert terrorist attacks in Pakistan but overall india cannot do anything to Pakistan just like they couldn't after mumbai 2008. Although most people cannot handle the truth, fact is Pakistan is too powerful. Pakistan is not Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Libya. There is a reason why Pakistan is the only Muslim nuclear weapons state with the ability to produce H-bombs and thermonuclear weapons since at least 2011:

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

And the Indian military high command know this fact only too well.

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## Mo12

Invading Pakistan conventionally should take a month at least. India navy dominate South of Pakistan.

India airforce can dominate North Pakistan. 

The only issue will be what will happen after the invasion, which will be the hardest part.

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## scorpionx

VivasvatManu said:


> For god sake can we put and end to this mental masturbation. The state govt. will deal with the situation in their own incompetent way. Stop trying to drag in Hindutva into this to complement your prejudice.


Prejudice? No. It may be hard for Sangh zealots to swallow but the periodical rants on nationalism, cow slaughter or Ram Janmabhoomi issue, Babri and Godhra had marked permanent stains on India's secular image and inevitably further alienated the only Muslim majority state of the country. Pakistan has successfully exploited this opportunity which they scarcely had before 90's.

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## X-2.

shah1398 said:


> And people out there still live in denial. I will have a damn hard time accepting any statement that says how a heavily guarded HQ was breached so easily when the threat level over there was red 24/7 and how they made till administrative HQ? Either the attackers were superior to the so called world class Army or the said Army itself is in shambles. Its time they start asking Mr. Doval that why their soldiers were so ruthlessly killed by own guys.


Doval doctrine is already implemented in Kashmir

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## VivasvatManu

Mo12 said:


> Invading Pakistan conventionally should take a month at least. India navy dominate South of Pakistan.
> 
> India airforce can dominate North Pakistan.
> 
> The only issue will be what will happen after the invasion, which will be the hardest part.



We don't need to 'invade'. that is a 12 century idea. 

We need to make Strategic STRIKES using our missiles and IAF. We need to raise the economic cost to pakistan. We need to diminish their war effort.



scorpionx said:


> Prejudice? No. It may be hard for Sangh zealots to swallow but the periodical rants on nationalism, cow slaughter or Ram Janmabhoomi issue, Babri and Godhra had marked permanent stains on India's secular image and inevitably further alienated the only Muslim majority state of the country. Pakistan has successfully exploited this opportunity which they scarcely had before 90's.



LOL.... why not drag in "rape", "beef" , "toilet", "caste" etc too ?

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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> Sadly and unmistakably the Islamic radicals have taken over. But this was not the case before. Before 90's struggle that was mostly secular in objective have become obsessed with Islamic overtones making it easier for Hindutva zealots (not you) to set the locus of the movement as per their on convenience. The Islamic radicalism can be brought to kneel not just by guns (and its only aggravates the fundamentalist aspirations), but by complete administrative reforms which we lacked so far.
> 
> Regards.



India is a democracy with all it's shortcomings like Corruption, nepotism, populism, red tape et all. Kashmir too suffers from this - administrators of Kashmirs including the political class coming from the same stock as Kashmiris themselves.

If it were possible to have an idealistic governance do you think we would not have implemented it atleast in our mainland cities? Administrative lacunae will exist - wishing it away is only possible in a totalitarian state and even there like cockroaches they survive because such faults are a basic human condition. 

If the issue was really in governance then Hurriyat would have stood up for elections - IMHO this provides an excuse but in all fairness to you - I get what you are saying it doesn't matter if it is an excuse - shortcoming will be exploited.

Therein lies the dilemma - we get rid of corrupt Kashmirie politicians and these same people will turn separatist and cry murder about how democratically elected govt is being undermined.

Sometimes disease is incurable, we have to either treat the symptoms which we are doing now and bear chronic pain or just amputate the diseased organ - meaning radical Islamists

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## Mo12

VivasvatManu said:


> We don't need to 'invade'. that is a 12 century idea.
> 
> We need to make Strategic STRIKES using our missiles and IAF. We need to raise the economic cost to pakistan. We need to diminish their war effort.



We can invade rest of Kashmir and Punjab at least.


----------



## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> Only thing Chanakya follower has done is now bringing Baluchistan in UN and soon it will become a top candidate to get freedom and of course we will make sure that pakistan remains the sole supplier of terrorism is the world.
> 
> Of course Pakistan is universe leader in terrorism anyways



update yourself mate, the US showed you middle finger as they are in no position to mess with the, you know, Chinese and the CEPC.

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## SrNair

X-2. said:


> You are already imposing allegations on Pakistan lol
> Its much look of false flag by Indians to manipulate against Pakistan in UN lol I'm much sure about this



I already said only 'if' terrorists are from across the border .
Lets hope it wouldnt be across from the border.


----------



## Knight Rider

SrNair said:


> Let wait for few days.
> If they are from Pakistan then things will spike up in to a new level.



How they come from Pakistan ????? We have other things to do. 

These are Kashmiri Freedom Fighters fighting for Kashmir.

17 Indian soldiers dead and 20+ injured , WOW  those 4 RAMBO's were very well trained and good.

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## VivasvatManu

Spectre said:


> India is a democracy with all it's shortcomings like Corruption, nepotism, populism, red tape et all. Kashmir too suffers from this - administrators of Kashmirs including the political class coming from the same stock as Kashmiris themselves.
> 
> If it were possible to have an idealistic governance do you think we would not have implemented it atleast in our mainland cities? Administrative lacunae will exist - wishing it away is akin to becoming a totalitarian state.
> 
> If the issue was really in governance then Hurriyat would have stood up for elections - IMHO this provides an excuse but in all fairness to you - I get what you are saying it doesn't matter if it is an excuse - shortcoming will be exploited.
> 
> Therein lies the dilemma - we get rid of corrupt Kashmirie politicians and these same people will turn separatist and cry murder about how democratically elected govt is being undermined.
> 
> Sometimes disease is incurable, we have to either treat the symptoms which we are doing now and bear chronic pain or just amputate the diseased organ - meaning radical Islamists




AIDS is incurable, but cancer can be cut out.

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## coffee_cup

Mo12 said:


> Invading Pakistan conventionally should take a month at least. India navy dominate South of Pakistan.
> 
> India airforce can dominate North Pakistan.
> 
> The only issue will be what will happen after the invasion, which will be the hardest part.



Here comes another Rambo.

If India were able to do so what you are suggesting, she would not have involved herself in exporting cross-border terrorism for decades into Pakistan.

All Indians are gonna do now is to increase their terrorism via Afghanistan into Pakistan. Hard days ahead for school children, churches, mosques and hospitals in Pakistan.


----------



## Hello It's me

coffee_cup said:


> Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...
> 
> Are we going to see the repeat of 2002 yet again?
> 
> Billions of dollars better spent on poor of India are going to get lost into the thin air to satisfy ego of some fanatic hindus... YET AGAIN!



In 2002 Modi was not the PM of India. Wait and watch


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777399152518967296
look at the mofos, threatening even before anybody blamed them.

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## T-72M1

https://defence.pk/threads/three-soldiers-gunned-down-in-peshawar-attack.449952/

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## thepakistani

"As you sow as you reap"


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## Mo12

coffee_cup said:


> Here comes another Rambo.
> 
> If India were able to do so what you are suggesting, she would not have involved herself in exporting cross-border terrorism for decades into Pakistan.
> 
> All Indians are gonna do now is to increase their terrorism via Afghanistan into Pakistan. Hard days ahead for school children, churches, mosques and hospitals in Pakistan.



Its funny how Muslim terrorists keep claiming responsibilites for all the attacks in Pakistan then.


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Hello It's me said:


> How India, a Hindu Majority country, is able to convince bunch of muslims to blow themselves in a mosque in the name of Allah is beyond my understanding. If you believe that terrorist attacks in pakistan is done by anyone else but pakistani themselves then you are a typical pakistani.



It was done by Afghan...We know how much bonhomie is going b/w Afghans and Indians...Stop pretending and accept you re trying to fool out of people over here by posting idiotic nonsense...


----------



## SrNair

shah1398 said:


> So apparently Pakistan is damn fool enough to have chosen such time line so that it can deliberately hurt itself by giving a wild card to India when showdown of words between Pakistan and India is currently in full swing at UN? Tell me who ll be trying to take max benefit of this very incident at UN?
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto words from last day showdown at UN copied by dude here. Seems some someone would not even bother to change the script a lil bit. Now I get why Bollywood copies Hollywood movies like from head to toe as it is.



Bhai,Do you have any evidence to prove your claims?
Whenever we told about cross border terrorism,we will have solid evidence to prove that.
And it seems they are damn sure that this is from across the border.


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## VivasvatManu

Hello It's me said:


> In 2002 Modi was not the PM of India. Wait and watch



I don't have much hope. Barking dogs seldom bite. 

The moment GoI gives out a statement, you can be sure there is going to be NO Action.

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## Raul_AD

scorpionx said:


> Prejudice? No. It may be hard for Sangh zealots to swallow but the periodical rants on nationalism, cow slaughter or Ram Janmabhoomi issue, Babri and Godhra had marked permanent stains on India's secular image and inevitably further alienated the only Muslim majority state of the country. Pakistan has successfully exploited this opportunity which they scarcely had before 90's.



Who cares about SICKULARISM other then marginalised congress and left.

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## SrNair

Knight Rider said:


> How they come from Pakistan ????? We have other things to do.
> 
> These are Kashmiri Freedom Fighters fighting for Kashmir.
> 
> 17 Indian soldiers dead and 20+ injured , WOW  those 4 RAMBO's were very well trained and good.



Just wait for a few days ,picture will be clear.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

All Pakistani members......Ignore the offensive remarks of Indians calling for invading Pakistan....If we reply to them, we'll play into their hands...

They daily invade Pakistan in their sleeps and then realize it is morning now....

Keep focus on Kashmir and continue exposing what these rss thugs done in Kashmir and all over India...

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## Mo12

VivasvatManu said:


> No required. We don't need to expend human lives.
> 
> We need to destroy their oil depots, their economic nerve centres by using IAF and missiles. We need to kill a few families of generals as 'collateral damage' to make them want to have peace with us.
> 
> We need to hurt them where it matters. They don't care about the common man, they care about their own privileges and THAT is what we need to destroy.



Pakistan economic centre are not even that strategic, so we can leave that out.

Attacking CPEC will hurt China more than Pakistan because its a Chinese investment.

We could just attack they military bases?

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## coffee_cup

Mo12 said:


> We can invade rest of Kashmir and Punjab at least.



Sure. Please go ahead.

So how long should we wait? A month? A year? A decade? 

The superman Modi is PM after all,


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## scionoftheindus

scorpionx said:


> Prejudice? No. It may be hard for Sangh zealots to swallow but the periodical rants on nationalism, cow slaughter or Ram Janmabhoomi issue, Babri and Godhra had marked permanent stains on India's secular image and inevitably further alienated the only Muslim majority state of the country. Pakistan has successfully exploited this opportunity which they scarcely had before 90's.


You seem to be more affiliated with your political ideologies or parties than with your nation..we don't want to hear people from like you at this moment..traitors like you are the reason for our country to be in such a pathetic conditions now.

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## The Sandman

VivasvatManu said:


> No required. We don't need to expend human lives.
> 
> We need to destroy their oil depots, their economic nerve centres by using IAF and missiles. We need to kill a few families of generals as 'collateral damage' to make them want to have peace with us.
> 
> We need to hurt them where it matters. They don't care about the common man, they care about their own privileges and THAT is what we need to destroy.


WOW you really need to drink a cold glass of water and try to get some sleep you're imagining too much man


----------



## Indiran Chandiran

Spectre said:


> India is a democracy with all it's shortcomings like Corruption, nepotism, populism, red tape et all. Kashmir too suffers from this - administrators of Kashmirs including the political class coming from the same stock as Kashmiris themselves.
> 
> If it were possible to have an idealistic governance do you think we would not have implemented it atleast in our mainland cities? Administrative lacunae will exist - wishing it away is only possible in a totalitarian state and even there like cockroaches they survive because such faults are a basic human condition.
> 
> If the issue was really in governance then Hurriyat would have stood up for elections - IMHO this provides an excuse but in all fairness to you - I get what you are saying it doesn't matter if it is an excuse - shortcoming will be exploited.
> 
> Therein lies the dilemma - we get rid of corrupt Kashmirie politicians and these same people will turn separatist and cry murder about how democratically elected govt is being undermined.
> 
> Sometimes disease is incurable, we have to either treat the symptoms which we are doing now and bear chronic pain or just amputate the diseased organ - meaning radical Islamists




Bravo.Brilliantly summed up !! If Kashmir is drifting back to the 90's , I say let it.If the PDP - BJP government wishes to resign , I say let it.A few years of Presidents rule under the army would allow us time to sort out the Islamists out there , isolated them & make an example of them .

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## The Sandman

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> All Pakistani members......Ignore the offensive remarks of Indians calling for invading Pakistan....If we reply to them, we'll play into their hands...
> 
> They daily invade Pakistan in their sleeps and then realize it is morning now....
> 
> Keep focus on Kashmir and continue exposing what these rss thugs done in Kashmir and all over India...


You really think these are offensive remarks?   even the sane Indian members like Jgbt and hellfire has left this thread because of emotionally charged teenagers

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## salarsikander

SmilingBuddha said:


> no wonder they are so *fvked up country.[*/QUOTE]
> Reported for Gross generalization and deeply offensive post
> @waz @Oscar





trident2010 said:


> It is only been a month since India made freedom of Baluchistan as one of its top priority and we can already see the heat. You guys gonna see it increasing all the way up until meltdown reaches to other regions of pakistan getting freedom from isi and pak army syndicate.


Does Baluchistan have curfews like IOK ? Does Pakistan blocks Un representatives from visiting Baluchistan ? 

Hell even US has slapped you guys by saying there is no such thing as independent Baluchistan. So try something new its getting really old now



SmilingBuddha said:


> *no wonder they are so fvked up country*.


Reported for deeply insulting and offensive post 
@waz @Oscar

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## W-11

I can smell independence!


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## Raul_AD

scorpionx said:


> Sadly and unmistakably the Islamic radicals have taken over. But this was not the case before. Before 90's struggle that was mostly secular in objective have become obsessed with Islamic overtones making it easier for Hindutva zealots (not you) to set the locus of the movement as per their on convenience. The Islamic radicalism can be brought to kneel not just by guns (and its only aggravates the fundamentalist aspirations), but by complete administrative reforms which we lacked so far.
> 
> Regards.



Dear Sir only Iron cuts Iron. You are seeing radicalization rising in Europe and America. The same is happening in India.

You cannot help it, it is equal and opposite reaction. 

You cannot denounce reactionary radicalization before you completely take down the original radicals. 

What you are saying is called bigotry.

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## Dungeness

Jackdaws said:


> *I am quoting the Chinese Govt. The source is the Guardian.* You need to learn the difference between the two and improve your English skills.




Why bother? Quot Chinese Government directly, please.


----------



## wOnDeR-ChAp

Mo12 said:


> We could just attack they military bases?


@waz @Oscar 
Freedom fighters attack Indian camp In Indian occupied Kashmir and since last 2 months Indian forces killed more than 90 people and blinded more than 400, they should expect such kind of response but some safron chadi members calling to invade Pakistan kindly take some serious action against them or we will respond them in our ow way.


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## Knight Rider

SrNair said:


> Just wait for a few days ,picture will be clear.



These 4 fighters exposed Indian military force training. They cant even handle 4 Kashmiris Commandos, how can they handle a combine CP invasion.

Update :- Death toll reaches 20 troops.


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## Beskar

The amount of bharti children currently circle-jerking their war fantasies against Pakistan ITT is not just laughable but quite sad at the same time. Goodluck invading Pakistan from your basements, fellas!

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## wOnDeR-ChAp

VivasvatManu said:


> We need to raise the COST for pakistanis. So ALL High value targets needs to be taken down. Economic value, military value, social value, cultural value and religious value.


Waoo you people already doing this and we successfully tackle Indian terror what else you can do.


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## Mo12

wOnDeR-ChAp said:


> @waz @Oscar
> Freedom fighters attack Indian camp In Indian occupied Kashmir and since last 2 months Indian forces killed more than 90 people and blinded more than 400, they should expect such kind of response but some *safron chadi members* calling to invade Pakistan kindly take some serious action against them or we will respond them in our ow way.


Resulting to individual abuse.

@waz @Oscar



Bezerk said:


> The amount of bharti children currently circle-jerking their war fantasies against Pakistan ITT is not just laughable but quite sad at the same time. Goodluck invading Pakistan from your basements, fellas!



Its reminds me of Pakistanis doing the exact same thing on this thread too.


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## PakSword

SmilingBuddha said:


> What a disgusting bunch of people cheer leading the terrorist scum for killing men in uniform, no wonder they are so fvked up country.



When these terrorists in uniform kill innocents, disable them using pallet guns, and then the whole country cheer for these crimes, you guys don't come to protest. Why now?

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## Hellfire

scorpionx said:


> You are misreading my post. The Insurgency in valley and Hindu political fundamentalism, both were independent of each other during their early days in the 90's. But what has happened since then is both had fed and furthered each other. It was quite convenient for the Islamic fundamentalists in the valley to convince the people that a state that can not protect an ancient mosque and deliberately keeps its eyes closed and often patronize calculated religious atrocities does not deserve to rule a necessarily Muslim province. The religious polarization becomes much easier then. Isn't?



Ah! Thanks for that clarification. Was surprised basically! Very true. The Babri issue - both the ruling Congress and BJP were to blame. That allowed the secular vs communal issue to acquire a center stage when it was not even an issue of significance.

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## Mo12

VivasvatManu said:


> We need to raise the COST for pakistanis. So ALL High value targets needs to be taken down. Economic value, military value, social value, cultural value and religious value.



But the cost to India will be higher, mainly because FDI will reduce for India. But I guess India economy is much stronger to handle this.

China will want us to go to war, so India economy weakens and become reliant on China just like Pakistan is now.


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## ranjeet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777430703726211072
deeply disappointed ... that's a new one. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777431140474818562

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## Hello It's me

Mo12 said:


> But the cost to India will be higher, mainly because FDI will reduce for India. But I guess India economy is much stronger to handle this.
> 
> China will want us to go to war, so India economy weakens and become reliant on China just like Pakistan is now.


A short term loss for a long term gain I say



ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777430703726211072


Enough of being defensive, time to be offensive now.

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## wOnDeR-ChAp

ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777430703726211072


Indian D.M Doval himself claim he spent time in Pakistan and also expressed desire to use terror why not India itself declare terror state why Pakistan


----------



## RedHulk

One thing i never understood. How come after a minute of any attack in India, they know every thing about the terrorists. 
two possibilities
1. RAW is the best agency in gathering info about Pakistan but Indian army and other forces suck at their job to not to prevent the attacks.
2. RAW orchestrate the all attacks from funding, hiring ( even Pakistani nationals) and executing the whole plans. ( Resembles to a women who torn her own clothes and shout he raped me scene)

About second part the ex IB cheif said by him self they used to fund separatists in Kashmir.


----------



## VivasvatManu

Mo12 said:


> But the cost to India will be higher, mainly because FDI will reduce for India. But I guess India economy is much stronger to handle this.
> 
> China will want us to go to war, so India economy weakens and become reliant on China just like Pakistan is now.



If China wants us to go to war, then we have to admit that they have SUCCEEDED in their strategy. 

Especially because we ALLOWED it to happen. 

And if we continue on this same path then expect a lot worse. 

We did not START this war, but we need to END it.

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## VivasvatManu

ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777430703726211072
> deeply disappointed ... that's a new one.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777431140474818562




There you go, the Dog has Barked. 


He needs to be shammed publicly for this statement.

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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Burhan wani, was a younger one, he can be neutralized in lot of other ways but you in your arrogance killed him, hence started chain reaction...



Whenever army goes into an op, they challenge the militants and give them a chance to surrender. These are standard sop.
Rules of engagement, fire only when fired upon.


----------



## New Resolve

Either the Indian Occupation Forces are completely INEPT or this is a False Flag by the Indians. How can only 4 Kashmiris
do so much damage to the Indian Army , if the indians are saying 17 casulties, you can bet the actual number is probably double.

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## coffee_cup

wOnDeR-ChAp said:


> @waz @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Jango



Ingore this dude and stop replying to his posts.

Finally he is gonna get tired or banned. No need to waste energies on such people.

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## salarsikander

925boy said:


> mullah Omar


Proof ? or just blatant allegation ?


----------



## ranjeet

wOnDeR-ChAp said:


> Indian D.M Doval himself claim he spent time in Pakistan and also expressed desire to use terror why not India itself declare terror state why Pakistan


Doval is not Indian DM.


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## wOnDeR-ChAp

coffee_cup said:


> Ingore this dude and stop replying to his posts.
> 
> Finally he is gonna get tired or banned. No need to waste energies on such people.


But we need a moderator on this thread to give flying F@@@ to war monger safron chadizzz.



ranjeet said:


> Doval is not Indian DM.


Ooh forget that he is National Security Adviser

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## thepakistani

If india keeps worst possible terrorism in kashmir. Eventually more and more responce of Kashmiris would erupt. There may be so violent in such a number that the barkings would die out.

If India would have been in a position to attack Pakistan, it would never have waited for excuses.

Useless barkings are only way out, when you are unable to bite. Very simple...so keep on..

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## SrNair

Knight Rider said:


> These 4 fighters exposed Indian military force training. They cant even handle 4 Kashmiris Commandos, how can they handle a combine CP invasion.
> 
> Update :- Death toll reaches 20 troops.



Funny thing isnt it ?.Can you say the same thing or smile like this if the one that list his life was from your family?

These are terrorists.


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## SmilingBuddha

salarsikander said:


> Does Baluchistan have curfews like IOK ? Does Pakistan blocks Un representatives from visiting Baluchistan ?
> 
> Hell even US has slapped you guys by saying there is no such thing as independent Baluchistan. So try something new its getting really old now
> 
> 
> Reported for deeply insulting and offensive post
> @waz @Oscar


Ofcourse, that was the purpose of my post, if it did it's job well than I am pleased.


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## jaunty

High level meeting with journalists and cameramen inside. Even at this moment the PR drive does not stop 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777409578707189760

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## Dazzler

trident2010 said:


> It is only been a month since India made freedom of Baluchistan as one of its top priority and we can already see the heat. You guys gonna see it increasing all the way up until meltdown reaches to other regions of pakistan getting freedom from isi and pak army syndicate.



stop living in dilusions, for once, the world will see kashmir joining pakistan while baluchistan will reap benefits from CEPC. 

Modi and his stooges have had so many diplomatic failures in two years that its not even funny anymore. Here is another one in the making.

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## Devil Soul

an attack on HQ of indian army & that also just before UN session, something is very very fishy here......

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## coffee_cup

wOnDeR-ChAp said:


> But we need a moderator on this thread to give flying F@@@ to war monger safron chadizzz.



He is just some delusional kid...Modi fanboy, what you gonna do about him?

Sooner or later mods will be here and take care of this teenie.

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## salarsikander

SmilingBuddha said:


> Ofcourse, that was the purpose of my post, if it did it's job well than I am pleased.


@waz @Oscar not only this sick hindu is regretful he actually very proud of insulting an entire nation,


----------



## SilentSpeaker

RUNG LAYE GA SHAHEEDO KA LAHOO...

Charoo Shuhada ko Quoom ka salam... Kiss bhaduri say inn shairoo nay ghasiboo ko dhool chataye hia

کس شیر کی آمد ہے کہ رن کانپ رہا ہے

رن ایک طرف چرخ کہن کانپ رہا ہے


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## Peaceful Civilian

trident2010 said:


> RIP to the soldiers.
> 
> Pakistan is the epicentre of terrorism and it is proved again. .


We have nothing to do in this incident. We have lot other things to do , While we are front line state on war against terrorism.
Those Kashmirs who Read Quran, and they want shahadat, they are doing attacks on Indian army. And they want freedom from occupation forces as they indulge in Rape and murder.


----------



## Side-Winder

ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777430703726211072
> deeply disappointed ... that's a new one.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777431140474818562



Extremely Immature stuff coming from a guy at this post.

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## Great Janjua

Mo12 said:


> muslims are failing to understand the terrorists came from pakistan to attack india



How are they coming from across the border I thought your army was extremely good at border security mate

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## Skull and Bones

RIP to the brave soldiers, your sacrifice will be avenged.

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## zebra7

Skull and Bones said:


> RIP to the brave soldiers, your sacrifice will be avenged.


inshah Allah

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Side-Winder said:


> Extremely Immature stuff coming from a guy at this post.



His name should be rajgand sing

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## Sankpal

Great Janjua said:


> How are they coming from across the border I thought your army was extremely good at border security mate


do u know ''geography location n LOC between india n pak. no wonder how much try to prevent terrorist from cross border but there little chance for failure.


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## Gentelman

So when are you dragging us in, In this ironic timing of attack on a highly secured area which too is under curfew??

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## Thomas M

RedHulk said:


> An other False flag operation by RAW to kill new recruits of Indian Army to put the blame on Pakistan as Pakistan in UN going to Show brutality of Indian army in a diplomatic way. This is a well played an old card of RAW to put blame on Pakistan and dampen the struggle of Kashmiris. One wonders why would pakistan carry an attack on Indian army when this kind of act will shed water on all the hard work done. This could have been done in future if UN failed to do any thing about kashmir again.



Any proof dude ??

Well we think the same about your APS attacks. It was an ISI backed operation just to get the approval for military courts and thus settle scores with the enemies of the establishment within Pakistan.

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## Great Janjua

Sankpal said:


> do u know ''geography location n LOC between india n pak. no wonder how much try to prevent terrorist from cross border but there little chance



I think you need to train your troops a bit more in guerilla warfare no wonder the terrorists attack them so easily in little numbers mate


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## ito

The causalities could go up. 12 more critically injured. The worst attack in last 27 years.


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## cerberus

Devil Soul said:


> an attack on HQ of indian army & that also just before UN session, something is very very fishy here......



Army Hq is in delhi not kashmir secondly its only admistered ammo base of supplies 

Secondly 17 killed is are fishy


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## Super Falcon

T-Rex said:


> *There are some Pakistanis who are getting ready to apologize. It's amazing!*


We are not in your dreams


----------



## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> India is a democracy with all it's shortcomings like Corruption, nepotism, populism, red tape et all. Kashmir too suffers from this - administrators of Kashmirs including the political class coming from the same stock as Kashmiris themselves.
> 
> If it were possible to have an idealistic governance do you think we would not have implemented it atleast in our mainland cities? Administrative lacunae will exist - wishing it away is only possible in a totalitarian state and even there like cockroaches they survive because such faults are a basic human condition.
> 
> If the issue was really in governance then Hurriyat would have stood up for elections - IMHO this provides an excuse but in all fairness to you - I get what you are saying it doesn't matter if it is an excuse - shortcoming will be exploited.
> 
> Therein lies the dilemma - we get rid of corrupt Kashmirie politicians and these same people will turn separatist and cry murder about how democratically elected govt is being undermined.
> 
> Sometimes disease is incurable, we have to either treat the symptoms which we are doing now and bear chronic pain or just amputate the diseased organ - meaning radical Islamists


Not many states of India has the same historical prelude as kashmir. While the security excesses, bureaucratic inefficiencies and corruption can easily be shoved away in other states, It can not be in a state that is struggling still to preserve its own distinct identity that the Union of India itself had again and again promised to assist. I will not go too far but in 2010, Chidambaram came up with a eight point formula. It advised the state government to release students accused of stone pelting or similar charges, immediate review of all charges under PSA, descaling the number of check points and bunkers, ex-gratia for the families of the deceased, to provide the state government a sum of 100 crore as ACA for improvements in educational infrastructure.

What happened since then? Practically nothing. A state where generations after generations are living under such broken promises can not be equaled with other parts. Spectre, wise men saw these blunders fifty years ago. V.P Menon said to H.V Hodson in 1964,_ " Do not think you are dealing with a part of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar or Gujarat. You are dealing with an area, historically and geographically and in all manners of things, with a certain background. If we bring our local ideas and local prejudices everywhere, we will never consolidate. We have to be men of vision and there has to be broadminded acceptance of facts in order to integrate really. And real integration comes of the mind and heart and not some clause which you may impose on other people." _Golden words!! And still holds remarkable validity till today. We did little to correct ourselves and we are multiplying our apathy only by putting a heterogeneous struggle into a single box of Islamic fundamentalism.

Only time will tell what would be India's response to this attack. Most likely they are not going to sit idle and will wish to pay in the same coin. But finding a short term solution for an archaic sickness is not going to give much result I am afraid. Lets agree to disagree on this point.



scionoftheindus said:


> You seem to be more affiliated with your political ideologies or parties than with your nation..we don't want to hear people from like you at this moment..traitors like you are the reason for our country to be in such a pathetic conditions now.



Are you thick? First read in what context it was written. People like you causes more harm to my country than any average Pakistani.

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## cerberus

ito said:


> The causalities could go up. 12 more critically injured. The worst attack in last 27 years.


How they reached to tent where men sleeping
Is very shocking area command should suspended

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cerberus said:


> Army Hq is in delhi not kashmir secondly its only admistered ammo base of supplies
> 
> Secondly 17 killed is are fishy


Brigade is composed of at least of 3 regiments .. That's at least 2.5-3 thousand troops.

And they don't administer ammo .. Ammo and services are provided by services corps like (in Pak we have) ASC or army supply corps.


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## ito

Gentelman said:


> So when are you dragging us in, In this ironic timing of attack on a highly secured area which too is under curfew??



Uri is never anti India. That is why. Majority of unrest is in South Kashmir and not near Uri. And Uri is at LoC

Moreover, the Kashmiri resistance fighters (reflecting the changed thread title) cannot hold a gun properly, let alone do such a daring attacks. The terrorists are from LeT or JeM.



cerberus said:


> How they reached to tent where men sleeping
> Is very shocking area command should suspended



Majority were killed while they were sleeping.

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## maximuswarrior

war&peace said:


> Illegal base by the Indian occupation forces. Kashmiris are standing up for their rights.



I thought everything was fine Indian occupied Kashmir? So what happened here? Fireworks?



zebra7 said:


> inshah Allah



You reap what you sow.



Great Janjua said:


> I think you need to train your troops a bit more in guerilla warfare no wonder the terrorists attack them so easily in little numbers mate



No amount of training can curb a legitimate struggle against an illegal occupation.



Sankpal said:


> do u know ''geography location n LOC between india n pak. no wonder how much try to prevent terrorist from cross border but there little chance for failure.



Sure. You just blame your bloody war against innocent Kashmiri people on Pakistan. Your claims of fool proof security turns out to be just bla bla.

Just yesterday an Indian was claiming on this forum that the Kashmir conflict is not on the international agenda. That the world doesn't care. Yet, here we are...

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## Peaceful Civilian

Param said:


> Retaliation will come soon and it will be brutal.I hope we don't take time to pay back.Time is different now.Its not Congress rule now.


Type of retaliation like killing Kashmiri women, youths and children. And retaliation like murder and rape of woman by indian occupied forces. No wonder , there is unrest in IOK. Your own government is responsible for unrest there.

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## cerberus

scorpionx said:


> Not many states of India has the same historical prelude as kashmir. While the security excesses, bureaucratic inefficiencies and corruption can easily be shoved away in other states, It can not be in a state that is struggling still to preserve its own distinct identity that the Union of India itself had again and again promised to assist. I will not go too far but in 2010, Chidambaram came up with a eight point formula. It advised the state government to release students accused of stone pelting or similar charges, immediate review of all charges under PSA, descaling the number of check points and bunkers, ex-gratia for the families of the deceased, to provide the state government a sum of 100 crore as ACA for improvements in educational infrastructure.
> 
> What happened since then? Practically nothing. A state where generations after generations are living under such broken promises can not be equaled with other parts. Spectre, wise men saw these blunders fifty years ago. V.P Menon said to H.V Hodson in 1964,_ " Do not think you are dealing with a part of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar or Gujarat. You are dealing with an area, historically and geographically and in all manners of things, with a certain background. If we bring our local ideas and local prejudices everywhere, we will never consolidate. We have to be men of vision and there has to be broadminded acceptance of facts in order to integrate really. And real integration comes of the mind and heart and not some clause which you may impose on other people." _Golden words!! And still holds remarkable validity till today. We did little to correct ourselves and we are multiplying our apathy only by putting a heterogeneous struggle into a single box of Islamic fundamentalism.
> 
> Only time will tell what would be India's response to this attack. Most likely they are not going to sit idle and will wish to pay in the same coin. But finding a short term solution for an archaic sickness is not going to give much result I am afraid. Lets agree to disagree on this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you thick? First read in what context it was written.





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Brigade is composed of at least of 3 regiments .. That's at least 2.5-3 thousand troops.
> 
> And they don't administer ammo .. Ammo and services are provided by services corps like (in Pak we have) ASC or army supply corps.


The brigade is already deployed in areas posts which authorized to them

Base consists of various staff that is from military hospital and food supplies and other logistics

And this not my personal statement watching TV details coming from EX northern commander

That's why its targeted because lot non combating people will killed and figures will be deadly physiologically

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## nomi007

dont wory nazi nawaz will file fir against unknown attackers in Pakistan


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## zebra7

its clear that it was the suicide attack, and the terrorist most possibly came from across LOC, and they had done their homework well and have trained and practiced well. Why casualties are so high is because, they attack the camp, where their was temporary tents, where the soldiers who came after holidays were resting near the administrative building. The terrorist crosses the walls, and attacked at 5 A.M, the time when the soldiers are mostly sleeping, or changing their duties etc aka when they were least allert. 

What is important to note that, their is very high propability that these terrorist had enough information, maps, and there must be some sleeper cell out of locals involved in this planning.

There is no full proof security, because the adversaries will keep changing their tactics, and its time when we have to change our tactics from defensive to proactive ones. Its high time, when Modi, and BJP should prove what they claim before coming into the power. There is no need to take direct actions, because their are several ways to hit the enemy where it hurts most.

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## wOnDeR-ChAp

*Attack on Head Quarter 10-Dograst Cannot Come From Pak It Majority Sikh Located Area. It is either a false flag or a brave attack by local Kashmir freedom fighters.*
*Zaid Hamid*

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## zebra7

maximuswarrior said:


> I thought everything was fine Indian occupied Kashmir? So what happened here? Fireworks?
> 
> 
> 
> You reap what you sow.
> 
> 
> 
> No amount of training can curb a legitimate struggle against an illegal occupation.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. You just blame your bloody war against innocent Kashmiri people on Pakistan. Your claims of fool proof security turns out to be just bla bla.




Mr. False Flagger please change your Flag. Are you ashamed of your true Identity.


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## Areesh

Don't worry India. You can always use Afghanistan to orchestrate some terror strike inside Pakistan and kill civilians to avenge this attack.

Have faith in Afghanistan. No need to get panic.

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## ito

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Type of retaliation like killing Kashmiri women, youths and children. And retaliation like murder and rape of woman by indian occupied forces. No wonder , there is unrest in IOK. Your own government is responsible for unrest there.



There was never an allegation of rape from even Kashmiris in recent times.


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## coffee_cup

ito said:


> Uri is never anti India. That is why. Majority of unrest is in South Kashmir and not near Uri. And Uri is at LoC
> 
> Moreover, the Kashmiri resistance fighters (reflecting the changed thread title) cannot hold a gun properly, let alone do such a daring attacks. *The terrorists are from LeT or HeM.*
> 
> 
> 
> Majority were killed while they were sleeping.



Oh here comes someone who always cries "proof" when we try to tell him that fanatic hindus are involved in false flag terrorist such as Samjhota Express.

What happened to that "Proof" mantra now?

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## Areesh

Modi can't do anything. It is Afghanistan who can do something for you.

Have faith in *Ashraf Ghani* and not *Modi*.

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## Devil Soul

cerberus said:


> Army Hq is in delhi not kashmir secondly its only admistered ammo base of supplies
> 
> Secondly 17 killed is are fishy


My comments where with reference to Indian army brigade headquarters, i know indian army hq is in delhi... thanks for the correction thou.... appreciate

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## Peaceful Civilian

ito said:


> There was never an allegation of rape from even Kashmiris in recent times.


How do you know the recent situation. Curfew is already imposed from 3 months and shoot orders for defying the rule.

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## ito

US condemns Uri attack!

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## cerberus

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Type of retaliation like killing Kashmiri women, youths and children. And retaliation like murder and rape of woman by indian occupied forces. No wonder , there is unrest in IOK. Your own government is responsible for unrest there.


Ok how they are getting sophisticated weapons LIke ak-47 with UBL and bulletproof vests 

UnIke Pakistan even owning local desi pistol in india crime which let in for 10 years

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## jaunty

ito said:


> Majority were killed while they were sleeping.



Shockingly poor level of preparedness?

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## ito

Peaceful Civilian said:


> How do you know the recent situation. Curfew is already imposed from 3 months and shoot orders for defying the rule.



So much news is coming from Kashmir now a days. Rape is too big an issue to be kept under covers. People are shot not for defying curfew, but for snatching arms from police or when it becomes dangerous to the security personnel's life when a large group attack him.


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## Levina

A very expected attack!
Indian govt has been mounting pressure on them and has also been very vocal about few issues.


Heartbroken at the loss of lives. 
RIP brave soldiers.

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## coffee_cup

cerberus said:


> Ok how they are getting sophisticated weapons LIke ak-47 with UBL and bulletproof vests
> 
> UnIke Pakistan even owning local desi pistol in india crime which let in for 10 years



Same way RAW sponsored TTP and BLA are getting very sophisticated weapons, bombs and training to attack schools, hospitals, mosques and churches.

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## cerberus

Devil Soul said:


> My comments where with reference to Indian army brigade headquarters, i know indian army hq is in delhi... thanks for the correction thou.... appreciate


Brigade headquarters consists many thing an hospital and food supplies and logistics 

12 men of the bihar regiment are support staff of MH



coffee_cup said:


> Same way RAW sponsored TTP and BLA are getting very sophisticated weapons, bombs and training to attack schools, hospitals, mosques and churches.


So this justified !!! So stop blame game

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## Shardul.....the lion

Rest in peace to martyred soldiers....


Gov't now will be under huge pressure for revenge

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## coffee_cup

cerberus said:


> Brigade headquarters consists many thing an hospital and food supplies and logistics
> 
> 12 men of the bihar regiment are support staff of MH
> 
> 
> So this justified !!! So stop blame game



What blame game? Indian support for cross-border terrorism for last half century is very well documented. And has resulted in loss of hundreds of thousands civilian lives. 

I have said time and again, India is playing a very dangerous game and at some point in time her trained terrorists/militants are going to turn their guns on the trainer...

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## JanjaWeed

Damn...17? That's a big casualty number for single incident. Attack is getting more brazen & security forces' relaxed attitude towards imminent threat is not helping either! Govt & security agencies needs to be ruthless..don't pander to these two bit peaceniks! Go full throttle & crush those enemies along with their cheerleaders once & for all!

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## cerberus

Levina said:


> A very expected attack!
> Indian govt has been mounting pressure on them and has also been very vocal about few issues.
> 
> 
> Heartbroken at the loss of lives.
> RIP brave soldiers.


Mostly support staff of MH has been targeted very tragic loss

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## Jackdaws

Dungeness said:


> Why bother? Quot Chinese Government directly, please.



So the Chinese Govt did not make this statement and the Guardian report is wrong?

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## coffee_cup

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> If i sold burnol to Indians on this thread... I'd be a millionaire;



Yo man, they are not giving asylum to that poor vermin, that terrorist Brahamdagh.

I think, it should be a good lesson for all those low lives doing dirty terrorist work for Indians...

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## hussain0216

Why are indian's getting their panties in a twist

How possibly would fighters from Pak cross such a well defended border

And carry out such a audacious attack making indian forces look like a bunch of clowns

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## cerberus

JanjaWeed said:


> Damn...17? That's a big casualty number for single incident. Attack is getting more brazen & security forces' relaxed attitude towards imminent threat is not helping either! Govt & security agencies needs to be ruthless..don't pander to these two bit peaceniks! Go full throttle & crush those enemies along with their cheerleaders once & for all!


Most of casualties are happened by lobbing grenade in sleeping barraks 

Response was quick buy qrt who killed them soon after this discovered the reaction was within seconds

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## Windjammer

After Bill Clinton became President, he officially said that he would give the Kashmir issue a ''Poke''....but just before his visit to the subcontinent, there was the Chittisinghpura massacre....and now with Occupied Kashmir on boil, two month under curfew with almost 100 civilians killed and just on the brink of UN moot another major attack takes place.... too much of a coincidence.

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## cerberus

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> If i sold burnol to Indians on this thread... I'd be a millionaire;
> View attachment 335549


Level desperation and sad to seeing the figures not expected to what your eqo is

It is needed more by you than us

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## coffee_cup

Windjammer said:


> After Bill Clinton became President, he officially said that he would give the Kashmir issue a ''Poke''....but just before his visit to the subcontinent, there was the Chittisinghpura massacre....and now with Occupied Kashmir on boil, two month under curfew with almost 100 civilians killed and just on the brink of UN moot another major attack takes place.... too much of a coincidence.



Even though Indians are famous for false flag operations to blame on Pakistan, but I think this time it might be a pure coincidence that militants have found an opportunity just before the UN session.

What was that UN session going to achieve anyway? I would wonder, if there were enough people attending the speeches..

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## cerberus

coffee_cup said:


> What blame game? Indian support for cross-border terrorism for last half century is very well documented. And has resulted in loss of hundreds of thousands civilian lives.
> 
> I have said time and again, India is playing a very dangerous game and at some point in time her trained terrorists/militants are going to turn their guns on the trainer...


Pakistan sheltering world most dangerous terrorists this also fact

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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> Pakistan sheltering world most dangerous terrorists this also fact


WHO,


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## Areesh

Rajnath Singh and Indian army chief should do an immediate meeting with Ashraf Ghani. There is no time to waste.

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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> WHO,


OBL for 1st 

Hafiz saheef,Mazood azar ,syed salludin
iilyas kashmiri list very big

All them are international terrorist designated by UN,US,EU various agencies

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## Burhan Wani

I condemn one sided response of international community who are taking side of occupied forces. Ya Allah shower your blessings on Kashmiri freedom fighters. Amen.



Areesh said:


> Rajnath Singh and Indian army chief should do an immediate meeting with Ashraf Ghani. There is no time to waste.


Hawks eye on back stabbers. Wise decision.

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## Levina

cerberus said:


> Mostly support staff of MH has been targeted very tragic loss


What about the DGP's info on a possible attack on airports and defence installations? 
Was any action taken?

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## Tshering22

We lost 17 good troops on this. 17 men who served the country with their supreme sacrifice.

Someone will dearly pay for this soon.

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## T90TankGuy

jaunty said:


> High level meeting with journalists and cameramen inside. Even at this moment the PR drive does not stop
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777409578707189760


Yeah i saw that stupidity , they seem to revel in photo ops.

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## RISING SUN

Levina said:


> What about the DGP's info on a possible attack on airports and defence installations?
> Was any action taken?


Doesn't matter now, does it. There were more than 12000 soldiers sleeping in temporary shelter. But does Indian government has guts to do things straight on face. I say Pakistan has the guts to do n support things on face as they have repeatedly done it even if you check for last 15-20 years if not looking for last 70 years. India has been always weak and will remain weak in front of Pakistan. And believe me when I say they will keep getting away with out any reprisals, that has happened, that is happening and that will again happen in future. We all know defense forces will keep taking hits after hits and government & politicians will keep repeating same lines of RIP or medals or anything similar. But what forces don't know is that they will never ever get permission to go on offensive footing no matter how much their comrades die or many of us break our keyboards in frustration. That is the cruel truth and I have accepted it after Mumbai attacks. Indian government doesn't have the "Bal!s" to reply back straightforwardly.

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## RISING SUN

jbgt90 said:


> Yeah i saw that stupidity , they seem to revel in photo ops.


They have to save their face as they can't fight the enemy. So letting journalists access to secure meetings and military bases is easier way out. That's the way we Indian work, don't you know that. Hey where is our big bro @Abingdonboy you also join the folks buddy. Fair is in full swing.

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## coffee_cup

nick_indian said:


> I would like to see what Modi does now. First Pathankot and then this. Two brazen terror attacks from across the border in his tenure. He better differentiate himself from the previous government now. Talk means nothing. No difference between Congress and him if he doesn't do anything now. 56 inch ki chaati better be visible now.



What can Modi do? Apart from sponsoring even more cross-border terrorism in Pakistan?

He is just a loud mouth who is made "god" by domestic fanatic hindu fundamentalists.

Talk is cheap as they say. Declaring war on regional power Pakistan will be very very very costly for India and Modi's fake 56 inches chest knows it.

So better course of action for Modi would be to stop sponsoring cross-boder terrorism in the neighborhood and solve the Kashmir issue.

The whole region could become a great power if that happens.

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## T90TankGuy

RISING SUN said:


> They have to save their face as they can't fight the enemy. So letting journalists access to secure meetings and military bases is easier way out. That's the way we Indian work, don't you know that. Hey where is our big bro @Abingdonboy you also join the folks buddy. Fair is in full swing.


This govt attitude towards security is pathetic , but then what can you expect with a govt headed by a man who is more interested with photo ops then anything . just yesterday it was his birthday , he had cameras even when he went to meet his mum. 
They have no clue who to handle anything , and those who do they cant listen to as they have raised the hyperbole so high that doing the sane thing is political suicide now. at this time i see that *** winston was right , these certainly are men of straws.

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## WAJsal

Will be opened soon after moderation. 
Thank you

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## WAJsal

Cleaned as much as i could @waz , please take over...

Indian members are quite efficient, they don't even need evidence to put blame on Pakistan. Anyway don't troll, use this thread for condolences and updates only....
Don't feed trolls, don't lose your calm, report. All TT's are expected to report to help moderation.

I hope we learn from history and don't repeat the same mistakes again, realizing solution lies in peacefully resolving the conflict not militarily handling it. Unless one wants revenge, or wants to see another generation of Kashmiris getting killed.


Tshering22 said:


> Someone will dearly pay for this soon.


I sure hope it's not the innocent Kashmiris.

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## waz

WAJsal said:


> Cleaned as much as i could @waz , please take over...
> 
> Indian members are quite efficient, they don't even need evidence to put blame on Pakistan. Anyway don't troll, use this thread for condolences and updates only....
> Don't feed trolls, don't lose your calm, report. All TT's are expected to report to help moderation.
> 
> I hope we learn from history and don't repeat the same mistakes again, realizing solution lies in peacefully resolving the conflict not militarily handling it. Unless one wants revenge, or wants to see another generation of Kashmiris getting killed.



I'm watching the thread bro. There are so many posts I'm still going through.

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## haviZsultan

I think Kashmiris should use non violent ways to achieve freedom. However the problem arises from desperation. Desperation when Kashmiris gain nothing from their political struggle accept their leaders arrested. When a person feels hopeless he may take part in killing and violence. Whenever there is oppression there is resistance.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Just another case of chickens coming home to roost.

When tyranny and genocide become policy, resistance becomes duty. Over 100 Kashmiris have been massacred in less than 75 days, it was only natural that some fathers or brothers or sons of Kashmiri martyrs would take a revenge.

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## Beskar

Modi''s failure in Kashmir responsible for Uri attack: Lalu
By IANS





Publish Date: 18-Sep-16 5:04 PM
Rashtriya Janata Dal chief Lalu Prasad on Sunday took a dig at Prime Minister Narendra Modi and said his failure to tackle the situation in Jammu and Kashmir was responsible for the attack on an army camp near Uri.

"Modi ki laparwahi aur nakaami se jawan marae ja rahein hain. Kahan gaya Modi ka 56-inch ka seena? (Soldiers are dying due to the failure and negligence of Modi; where is his 56-inch chest now?)," Lalu told the media here.

Suspected militants attacked the army camp near Uri early Sunday morning, leading to the death of 17 soldiers. Over two dozen soldiers were also injured in the audacious attack. All the four heavily-armed militants involved in the strike were killed during a two-and-half-hour gun battle, military officials said.

Lalu said the act is "highly condemnable", but a mere condemnation will not suffice. 

"The Centre has to take tough action to give a befitting reply to terrorists."

The former Bihar Chief Minister flayed Modi for what he said was "deteriorating" condition in Jammu and Kashmir. 

He said the state is an integral part of India but the situation there is going out of control, thanks to "only big talk and no action" on the ground.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Tshering22 said:


> We lost 17 good troops on this. 17 men who served the country with their supreme sacrifice.
> 
> Someone will dearly pay for this soon.



more unarmed Kashmiri youth will be shot with pellet guns and live ammo, more angry defiance of curfew and more resistance against the occupation forces.

I think it's india paying dearly for her deluded and genocidal policies in occupied Kashmir. But it's always sad to see soldiers get killed in conflict; not as sad as seeing innocent unarmed civilians being killed.



ito said:


> So you do terror activities in India, and blackmail India to give up Kashmir. Not going to happen. On the other hand this only prove Pakistan's hand in the recent unrest in Indian state of Kashmir. And International community should take note of this.



"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" 

when tyranny becomes policy, resistance becomes duty for those who are oppressed........the same logic used by that chai wala PM of yours who is trying to make noise over Balochistan as he and his govt. are internationally under pressure in Kashmir. 

introspect a bit

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## Umair Nawaz

haviZsultan said:


> I think Kashmiris should use non violent ways to achieve freedom. However the problem arises from desperation. Desperation when Kashmiris gain nothing from their political struggle accept their leaders arrested. When a person feels hopeless he may take part in killing and violence. Whenever there is oppression there is resistance.


point is that india already has enough cloud that it can take a little bit of pressure, from mere protests and international reactions from UN and its human rights council in Geneva. Since we all know very well that UN is a mere American mistress and after signing LEMOA type agreements, America is fully at indian camp so is EU.

So unless India isnt hurt physically, its establishment which is made up of terrorists themselves, wont give a damn. His 56" chest has to be penetrated to kill his pride.

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## cerberus

]


Umair Nawaz said:


> point is that india already has enough cloud that it can take a little bit of pressure, from mere protests and international reactions from UN and its human rights council in Geneva. Since we all know very well that UN is a mere American mistress and after signing LEMOA type agreements, America is fully at indian camp so is EU.
> 
> So unless India isnt hurt physically, its establishment which is made up of terrorists themselves, wont give a damn. His 56" chest dont care


If India will hit
Pakistan will be hit even bad

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ThaniOruvan said:


> 17 Jawans and four militants killed in the attack.
> 
> Waiting for comments that just 4 militants killed 17 soldiers.



strangely that is the case, you must be a psychic

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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> ]
> 
> If India will hit
> Pakistan will hit even bad


Pakistan isnt hitting u son....Kashmiri Resistance Fighters r. And they would continue to hit u unless u give up on Kashmir. Thats just as simple as that.


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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> OBL for 1st
> 
> Hafiz saheef,Mazood azar ,syed salludin
> iilyas kashmiri list very big
> 
> All them are international terrorist designated by UN,US,EU various agencies


Where is OBL' dead body ?
Kindly provide the link for the so called terrorist you claim of


----------



## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> Where is OBL' dead body ?
> Kindly provide the link for the so called terrorist you claim of


Ask to Americans and we don't need give explanation 
And international community


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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> Ask to Americans and we don't need give explanation
> And international community


No, You were the one who said that. So where is it ? 

USA also attacked iraq on false pretext of WMD, where is that ?

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## cerberus

Umair Nawaz said:


> Pakistan isnt hitting u son....Kashmiri Resistance Fighters r. And they would continue to hit u unless u give up on Kashmir. Thats just as simple as that.


How these so called fighters getting sophisticated weapons and BPJ 
And ammunition ??



salarsikander said:


> No, You were the one who said that. So where is it ?
> 
> USA also attacked iraq on false pretext of WMD, where is that ?


Don't make false pretext US in P 5 country
And global project power 

There diplomatic and statergic credibility is much more than Pakistan 

Ask your OIC countries who still at mercy of US aids and it support

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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> How these so called fighters getting sophisticated weapons and BPJ
> And ammunition ??


Ask the indian muslims there.\
Just the same way how Mumbai attacks facilitator helped the guy

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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> How these so called fighters getting sophisticated weapons and BPJ
> And ammunition ??


lol anyone can get that, even in syria, ukraine they had decent inventory, anyways even yr commander once said that the new resistance fighters dont have enough weaponry. If yr trying to imply that we r supplying then let me remind u that our LOC is sealed since decades and even walled off and fenced by u in certain sections. it isnt possible for them to sell them weapons. Maybe some of yr soldiers could be selling them their weapons for some money....

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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> Don't make false pretext US in P 5 country
> And global project power


Being global power doesnt make them any credible. You still have answered the above questions. 

Where were the WMD of Iraq on which they invaded a whole country ???

And Where is the body of the guy whom they chased for 12 years or so

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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> Ask the indian muslims there.\
> Just the same way how Mumbai attacks facilitator helped the guy


This not Pakistan its India here you can go jail just owning desi pistol for decades 

Indian are patriot's some of them are commanding SF which daily take out these militants



Umair Nawaz said:


> lol anyone can get that, even in syria, ukraine they had decent inventory, anyways even yr commander once said that the new resistance fighters dont have enough weaponry. If yr trying to imply that we r supplying then let me remind u that our LOC is sealed since decades and even walled off and fenced by u in certain sections. it isnt possible for them to sell them weapons. Maybe some of yr soldiers maybe selling them their weapons for some money....


This India you cannot even desi pistol here dude you will be jailed for decade or so


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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> This not Pakistan its India here you can go jail just owning desi pistol for decades
> 
> Indian are patriot's some of them are commanding SF which daily take out these militants


But how the guy was able to find refuge and then carry out attacks ?


----------



## Windjammer

This image shows the scale of the attack.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37399969

excerpt:

_With the Indian Home Ministry talking about a "cross-border terror attack", there is no doubt the raid will make the already fraught relations between India and Pakistan even frostier.

*But the truth is this latest upsurge in violence has a distinctly home-grown flavour.*

The huge wave of protests against Indian rule that were prompted by the killing of a popular young militant on 8 July have been overwhelmingly* by people from Indian-controlled areas of Kashmir.*

The attack is likely to mean normal life in the province (READ - "OCCUPIED TERRITORY") will continue to be paralysed by the curfew imposed by the security forces for some time to come.

The Indian government says it wants to discuss how to end the violence with local leaders, but so far its overtures have been* rejected *by separatists who insist that *the issue of Kashmiri independence must be on the table.*_

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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> But how the guy was able to find refuge and then carry out attacks ?


Don't deviate topic I asked where they get 
These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher 
And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally


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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> This India you cannot even desi pistol here dude you will be jailed for decade or so


lol petrol sold by a civilian is different and risky, unless the police/ army or any law enforcement agency themselves start selling it and nobody can catch u because they ARE the law!.....


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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> But how the guy was able to find refuge and then carry out attacks ?


Don't deviate topic I asked where they get 
These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher 
And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally

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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> Don't deviate topic I asked where they get
> These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher
> And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally


You should ask that for indiam muslims


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## cerberus

Umair Nawaz said:


> lol petrol sold by a civilian is different and risky, unless the police/ army or any law enforcement agency themselves start selling it and nobody can catch u because u ARE the law!.....


Petrol different from AK-47 with UBL grenades and incinary ammo which military grenate only manufacturered in ordinances factories

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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> Petrol different from AK-47 with UBL grenades and incinary ammo which military grenate only manufacturered in ordinances factories


EXACTLY!!!!! Thats what i meant..........*.unless the police/ army or any law enforcement agency themselves start selling it and nobody can catch u because they ARE the law!*.....


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## Areesh

cerberus said:


> Don't deviate topic I asked where they get
> These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher
> And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally



How TTP fighters get Indian weapons and Indian medicine even though FATA has no direct border or any land link with India??

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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> You should ask that for indiam muslims


Like I said Indian Muslims are patriot's usually 
Command SF battalions in J&K 

They chose India over Pakistan way back

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Clutch said:


> The attackers from what I have analyzed may be fathers or brothers of those killed by the Indian army in Kashmir over the past few weeks. They may have been taking social justice into their hands.
> 
> It is a very high probability that this was so according to my research.



Burhan Wani was a regular teenager who liked sports and did very well in his studies....until the day he and his friends were beaten so badly by occupation forces, humiliated and thrown into a dungeon while bleeding profusely.

then a freedom fighter was born 

sums up the case for many Kashmiris fed up with the occupation and tyranny and humiliation

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## cerberus

salarsikander said:


> You should ask that for indiam muslims


Like I said Indian Muslims are patriot's usually 
Command SF battalions in J&K 

They chose India over Pakistan way back


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## haviZsultan

cerberus said:


> Don't deviate topic I asked where they get
> These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher
> And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally


The blame is mutual. We found INSAS rifles with the TTP.

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## samv

*India armed, trained and funded the Tamil Tigers and their campaign of terror in Sri Lanka.

Now India gets a taste of its own medicine. 

Karma?*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

cerberus said:


> How these so called fighters getting sophisticated weapons and BPJ
> And ammunition ??



Define "sophisticated weapons"


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## cerberus

Umair Nawaz said:


> EXACTLY!!!!! Thats what i meant..........*.unless the police/ army or any law enforcement agency themselves start selling it and nobody can catch u because they ARE the law!*.....


Indian Army still not learn this art from Pakistan 
PA has history of arming such militants against Soviets



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Define "sophisticated weapons"


Incinary grenade and night vision devices 
And BPJ patkas 

Which obviously build by ordinances


----------



## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> Like I said Indian Muslims are patriot's usually
> Command SF battalions in J&K
> 
> They chose India over Pakistan way back


It might be true, might be not. 
But the fact that the alleggd terroist some sort of inside help, otherowse no one would be able to pull such stunt ooyt of thin air



cerberus said:


> Incinary grenade and night vision devices
> And BPJ patkas


Any link to support such claim

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## cerberus

haviZsultan said:


> The blame is mutual. We found INSAS rifles with the TTP.


So is justified than its war 

So there no reason blaming next time when TTp strikes


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## AsianLion

Indian Army suffering from the wrong and lie based polices of Modi and BJP government...how can u kill and terrorize Kashmiris for 70 days....continous curfew in Jammu and Kashmir had been unbearable.


17 Dead and over 20 permanently injured...loss and sadness to the Indian families...the war has only started to bleed India.


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## Beskar

cerberus said:


> Don't deviate topic I asked where they get
> These sophisticated weapons ak-47 with ubl launcher
> And incinary grenades which are military grade which impossible to get here locally




Indian Army/Police barracks/vehicles are being raided and looted for the past few weeks now. Arms & Ammunition for the resistence is being provided by the State of Kashmir.

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## Tipu7

In PathanKot incident they found batteries, shoes which were made in Pakistan.
This time they found "stamps"

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## lightoftruth

Jaish e mohammed masood azhar behind it ,same guy behind pathankot.They have acted its our time to react,
1.President rule in j&k let army operate without any interference.
2.cut diplomatic,trade,ppl 2 ppl ties to bare minimum.
3.withdraw from MFN status,IWT.
4.covert action.


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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> Indian Army still not learn this art from Pakistan
> PA has history of arming such militants against Soviets
> 
> 
> Incinary grenade and night vision devices
> And BPJ patkas
> 
> Which obviously build by ordinances



lol that was a different thing, selling them illegally against yr own force's code of conduct is different to specially those who will use them against u.


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## idune

I have said it before, india has reached the end of the road with all means to subdue Kashmiri uprising. In such situation indian will use false flag ops to act victim. Last few days india displayed what sort of military hardware indians will use against Kashmiri people. This incident is just fist of such example for india to justify another genocide. Good riddance to these 17 who are killed by their own genocidal indian govt.

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## Beskar

Tipu7 said:


> In PathanKot incident they found batteries, shoes which were made in Pakistan.
> This time they found "stamps"
> 
> View attachment 335608



The entire valley of IOK carries the flag of Pakistan. Why wouldn't _Les Gavroches_ not mark themselves with the flag of Pakistan?

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## Tipu7

If you think this is "sophisticated" weapons then have look at equipment of LTTE.
They even developed their own mini subs, new boat designs and weapons.

And why will some sane person bring Pakistan currency with him in Indian Kashmir?
Does it work there??? 
Making own boats, pads is very easy.
If they were operating any night vision, thermal sights then share pic of it.

There is nothing "sophisticated" in above pictures.....


cerberus said:


> *Similar Operation are done by TTP in GHQ Rawalpindi ,Mehran
> 
> It don't Mean Pakistan army filled With traitors
> SPJ Owned by these Militias Elbow pad to gun are all Military grade *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Don't Say indian forces are Not selling them these also
> View attachment 335610





Bezerk said:


> The entire valley of IOK carries the flag of Pakistan. Why wouldn't _Les Gavroches_ not mark themselves with the flag of Pakistan?


At least, they didn't find any ID card this time.
Forget about Marking

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## Joe Shearer

hellfire said:


> @nair @Spectre @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer
> 
> Policy shifts. Expect more concentration on P0K. Rationale being 'own territory'.
> 
> Let's wait and watch. Things have become too serious. Modi can not afford to back off. We expect things to head south very fast and very quickly.



Clearly there will be more activity cross-border in P0K. There is nothing else to do. Assuming, that is, that the sickening suggestions of some excessively-jingo Indians is discarded as lunatic ravings, and assuming also that talking loudly about Balochistan is one thing, actively getting involved other than in publicity support of their non-violent, non-terrorist activities is another thing.

The worst thing that might happen, and must never be allowed to happen, is deploying people for management of civil unrest who have a chip on their shoulders due to this latest incident. The unit concerned was tasked for border duties, and are nowhere concerned with civil disturbances, but some jackass might take it on himself to retaliate on their behalf.



Raul_AD said:


> Time has arrived for final and decisive action to end all the enemies once in for all. India should not stop till it Breaks Pakistan into 4 pieces.



We really can do without this crap.

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## RISING SUN

jbgt90 said:


> This govt attitude towards security is pathetic , but then what can you expect with a govt headed by a man who is more interested with photo ops then anything . just yesterday it was his birthday , he had cameras even when he went to meet his mum.
> They have no clue who to handle anything , and those who do they cant listen to as they have raised the hyperbole so high that doing the sane thing is political suicide now. at this time i see that *** winston was right , these certainly are men of straws.


Fu(K all politicians for I care. All are different of same coin, no more lies no more silent fuming. I will raise my voice everywhere whether it is FB or other medium of information sharing. Have lost faith in politicians the day terror attacks happened in Mumbai last time. Politicians will go to any deapth to deflect the blame. Now it's time to blame them directly, no more diversionary tactics. Some members of military top brass also act in same way, like acting in front of domestic audience.


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## Hellfire

@Joe Shearer

The costs will be inflicted on the launch pads across LC, that is what is emerging. There shall be specific and deliberate targeting.

The statement of the Army officially of a retaliation is significant. Costs will be exacted.

I suspect we might see a Parakaram 2 at most ... just for a show and nothing more while specific retaliations are undertaken.

However, the need of the hour is to settle things quickly and peacefully.

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## hussain0216

lightoftruth said:


> Said the bitches who ran like crazy calling papa usa after one statement by Indian President on 26/11,look at your country carefully it will not remain the same.


 were ready and waiting


----------



## Moonlight

Tshering22 said:


> We lost 17 good troops on this. 17 men who served the country with their supreme sacrifice.
> 
> Someone will dearly pay for this soon.



It's Pakistanis or Kashmiris? After all, even on death of a cat in India, Pakistan is blamed. 
If it's Kashimirs then what they were paying for since last 2/3 months?

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## Stealth

topi drama lagaya huwa hey sirf UN ke speech say pehlay apnay banday marwaoo aur phir UN may randi rona daloo ** chutyeee EndLUns


----------



## GR!FF!N

@waz @Oscar @WebMaster

I thought this forum has a strict policy over never to express "Joy" over death of a soldier,regardless whichever country it belongs.Then how come lowlives are getting free run into threads like this??I'm pretty sure any Indian whould act the same will be handed over a swift ban.

Just go through the thread and I think you'll know.

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## salarsikander

cerberus said:


> t don't Mean Pakistan army filled With traitors


Well the question is these TTp are embedded in local community so it get kinda hard to figure out which is one who and what. 

Secondly the guy allegedly came from Pakistan on some boat and then went out on carnage all of this done without any local support ! hard to believe that or unless it was false flag


----------



## Tipu7

cerberus said:


> View attachment 335615
> 
> 
> View attachment 335616


Night vision & Thermal sights plz.
Mortar is common weapon uses by TTP & BLA. All of it is sold in black market, even top notch military equipment (sights, radio, binoculars,laptops,range finders) of Nato can be bought easily in Afghanistan particularly Kandahar region at very cheap bucks.
I don't find any specific Proof that they were armed by Pakistan agencies......

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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> Clearly there will be more activity cross-border in P0K. There is nothing else to do. Assuming, that is, that the sickening suggestions of some excessively-jingo Indians is discarded as lunatic ravings, and assuming also that talking loudly about Balochistan is one thing, actively getting involved other than in publicity support of their non-violent, non-terrorist activities is another thing.
> 
> The worst thing that might happen, and must never be allowed to happen, is deploying people for management of civil unrest who have a chip on their shoulders due to this latest incident. The unit concerned was tasked for border duties, and are nowhere concerned with civil disturbances, but some jackass might take it on himself to retaliate on their behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> We really can do without this crap.


@Joe Shearer Extremely pleased to see you back on the board.

In your esteemed opinion , What can be done to diffuse the tension ?


----------



## waz

GR!FF!N said:


> @waz @Oscar @WebMaster
> 
> I thought this forum has a strict policy over never to express "Joy" over death of a soldier,regardless whichever country it belongs.Then how come lowlives are getting free run into threads like this??I'm pretty sure any Indian whould act the same will be handed over a swift ban.
> 
> Just go through the thread and I think you'll know.



Many posts have been deleted, but if you can point any out then that would be helpful.

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## GR!FF!N

waz said:


> Many posts have been deleted, but if you can point any out then that would be helpful.



Thanks for this positive approach.I'll report as much posts as I can.I'll ask fellow Indians to do the same..

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## monitor

ito said:


> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/terr...kashmirs-uri-1460034?pfrom=home-lateststories
> 
> *Terror Attack At Army Camp In Jammu And Kashmir's Uri*
> All India | Written by Nazir Masoodi | Updated: September 18, 2016 08:38 IST
> 
> by Taboola
> Sponsored Links
> *COMMENTS*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrorists attacked an army installation in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri this morning (File photo)
> 
> SRINAGAR:
> *HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> At least 4 terrorists attack army installation in Baramulla district
> Terrorists entered camp around 4 am; gunbattle with forces underway
> Rajnath Singh postpones visit to Russia, US
> 
> At least four terrorists have attacked an army installation in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri, which is near the Line of Control. A gun battle is on.
> 
> The terrorists, suspected to be _fidayeen _or a suicide squad, attacked the camp at around 4 am and entered the administrative area, officials said.
> 
> The camp is on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway in the Baramulla district, about 70 km from state capital Srinagar.
> 
> Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh has postponed a visit to Russia and the US that was to have started today, news agency PTI reported.
> 
> More details are awaited.




*Attack on occupation forces are not Terrorist attack as long as they don't harm innocent civilian . Kashmir is a disputed land and its peoples should get the right to decide their fate . if Indian help during Bangladesh Liberation war was not supporting terrorist activities or supporting disintegration of a country then Pakistan's support of Kashmirs are not any thing supporting terrorism or crime .*

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## cerberus

Tipu7 said:


> Mortar is common weapon uses by TTP & BLA. All of it is sold in black market, even top notch military equipment (sights, radio, binoculars,laptops,range finders) of Nato can be bought easily in Afghanistan particularly Kandahar region at very cheap bucks.


Its Not sold i india We Not have weapon Selling Markets here So its obvious its provided that to in Sensitive State like kashmir impossible




Night vision Devices are shown images if See throwley















http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...-Kashmir-unrest/2016/08/11/article3573954.ece

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## T-Rex

SrNair said:


> So neither we miss you.
> Donot quote me ,because this is non of your business.I dont have anything to say you.


*
It is every bit of our business, as you've made our business yours. Now get used to it or get the hell out of it. I'm going to quote every crap you post, stop me if you can!*


----------



## cerberus

monitor said:


> Attack on occupation forces are not Terrorist attack as long as they don't harm innocent civilian . Kashmir is a disputed land and its peoples should get the right to decide their fate .


Under which Clause UNHRC ???


----------



## SrNair

T-Rex said:


> *It is every bit of our business, as you've made our business yours. Now get used to it or get the hell out of it. I'm going to quote every crap you post, stop me if you can!*




What business?
If GoI has influence in BD tgat is your incompetence not ours.

Go and quote if you want but I wont reply .
More I say about more would be insult to you.


----------



## scorpionx

monitor said:


> *Attack on occupation forces are not Terrorist attack as long as they don't harm innocent civilian . Kashmir is a disputed land and its peoples should get the right to decide their fate . if Indian help during Bangladesh Liberation war was not supporting terrorist activities or supporting disintegration of a country then Pakistan's support of Kashmirs are not any thing supporting terrorism or crime .*


Stop spreading this bs which I am seeing since morning. If there is NO Internationally agreed definition of terrorism how do you decide what is a terrorist attack and what is not, first of all?

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## Hellfire

waz said:


> Many posts have been deleted, but if you can point any out then that would be helpful.




Have reported post to apparently no effect.


----------



## T-Rex

SrNair said:


> What business?
> If GoI has influence in BD tgat is your incompetence not ours.
> 
> Go and quote if you want but I wont reply .
> More I say about more would be insult to you.


*
Get used to it, perhaps Burnol might help you.*

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## Tshering22

Moonlight said:


> It's Pakistanis or Kashmiris? After all, even on death of a cat in India, Pakistan is blamed.
> If it's Kashimirs then what they were paying for since last 2/3 months?



You really have a guilty conscience don't you?

I was talking about the perpetrators, but if the trail leads back to either, it will definitely be so.

And please don't expect me to clarify how it is going to be. After all these years of being on PDF, both you and I know it isn't with tanks rolling down each other's cities.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> more unarmed Kashmiri youth will be shot with pellet guns and live ammo, more angry defiance of curfew and more resistance against the occupation forces.
> 
> I think it's india paying dearly for her deluded and genocidal policies in occupied Kashmir. But it's always sad to see soldiers get killed in conflict; not as sad as seeing innocent unarmed civilians being killed.



Being a senior member you should know that you hear about us dealing with potential militants en masse only because we let it happen.

Let's face it; communications are in the hands of the government. Anything that goes in and out can be controlled.

For once, use your head and think how long would it take to keep the entire city in blackout while troops could get in and finish 80% of the residents of Srinagar, if we really, really wanted? No one would know until we choose to release it.

Media might have its internal politics but under national security related acts, government can throw every single camera, journalist and data packet including satellite access, phones, net, wireless device and anything remotely electronic into custody.

No power. No communication. No journalists. No politicians to oppose. No news. No awareness. 

It is the easy way to finish off the whole "Kashmir Issue" as you call it in less than a month. 

Wiped clean as a slate and people brought in afresh to look like all is normal. Then life could simply continue. 

Why does it not happen? Why do you get to see those media reports?

Do you really think it is those stupid stone pelters that are stopping it from happening? 

Think about it.


----------



## coffee_cup

scorpionx said:


> Stop spreading this bs which I am seeing since morning. If there is NO Internationally agreed definition of terrorism how do you decide what is a terrorist attack and what is not, first of all?



The thing is India has supported Mukti Bahini, LTTE for decades and now supporting BLA, TTP etc.

If you don't consider it supporting terrorists how do you expect other countries to designate your militants/freedom fighters as "terrorists"?

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## Abingdonboy

@Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha

Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.


RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.

Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.


But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec

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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> Under which Clause UNHRC ???



since when have you guys began respecting the UN and its affiliate, charters and clauses? Pleasantly surprised



Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared @MilSpec



Do a little research, youll find the culprits hidden somewhere around your ambitious and murderous politicians.

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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> Since It was practiced By Pakistan who use Cluster Munitions to bomb Its own territory and Civilians



where is the evidence to your claim?

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## Kaniska

Respect to my soldiers who laid their life for us...Rest in Peace.

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## Areesh

cerberus said:


> Its all over *youtube*'s videos are available of Zarb-e azab flying F-16 & JF-17 bombing it own people



Lol youtube is the proof.

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## The Eagle

Well we are not blamed yet so wait for it. It is right before UNGA's session that Pakistan prepared with everything to highlight Kashmir atrocities in front of the world. Even if it is designed, I am sure, going to fire back like those interfering statement of NaMO on 14th August. It will be more helpful to understand by the world about the concerns of rebels (Indian word to undermine the the cause of Freedom)/freedom fighters.


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## Beskar

cerberus said:


> Its all over youtube's videos are available of Zarb-e azab flying F-16 & JF-17 bombing it own people



Now I understand where your whinning & moaning stems from. Lay off the Zarb Footage, you'll give yourself a heart attack lad!

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## Areesh

Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> *Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.*
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec



Thanks for calling Pakistan Beligum or New Zealand. Both are far ahead of supa puwa India anyways. 

I would prefer to be Belgium or New Zealand any day.

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## waz

Areesh said:


> Thanks for calling Pakistan Beligum or New Zealand. Both are far ahead of supa puwa India anyways.
> 
> I would prefer to be Belgium or New Zealand any day.



Lol.

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## Hiptullha

cerberus said:


> Since It was practiced By Pakistan who use Cluster Munitions to bomb Its own territory and Civilians



 It seems you've forgotten that even the 'benevolent shupa pawa' bombed its own citizens. Amnesia and hypocrisy - a national Indian trait.


> In the Lushai hills of Assam in the early sixties, a famine broke out. A relief team cried out for help from the Government of India. But there was little help. The relief team organized themselves into the Mizo National Front (MNF) and called for an armed struggle, " to liberate Mizoram from Indian colonialiasm." In February 1966, armed militant groups captured the town of Aizawl and took possession of all government offices. It took the Indian army one week to recapture the town. *The army responded viciously with air raids*.

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## cerberus

Bezerk said:


> Now I understand where your whinning & moaning stems from. Lay off the Zarb Footage, you'll give yourself a heart attack lad!


Attacks still happening Zarb -e-azab or not day before Mohmand agency ,quetta blast Many attacks Many attacks Unless Pakistan changes its policy of Good and bad terrorists


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## Areesh

cerberus said:


> Attacks still happening Zarb -e-azab or not day before Mohmand agency ,quetta blast Many attacks Many attacks Unless Pakistan changes its policy of Good and bad terrorists



And why is IOK under curfew and on the boil for past 2 months??

What bharat mata needs to change as per your intelle-chawal analysis???


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## Bratva

Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec



Where was your lament when State terrorist were killing kashmiri unarmed people since last 2 months ? and recently killed a 11 year old kid ?

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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> Its all over youtube's videos are available of Zarb-e azab flying F-16 & JF-17 bombing it own people



you need to have your eyes checked mate, and do some research before jumping the guns. See some videos on how a cluster bomb unit and a dumb bomb impacts the target etc.

And please, stop watching bollywood fantasies and crappy media headlines before coming to this forum or be ready to face more embarrassment.

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## cerberus

Hiptullha said:


> Amnesia and hypocrisy - a national Indian trait.


No official document or even a report available i n media available IAF Not even recognized It Its False Please show Photo graphic Evidence


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## scorpionx

coffee_cup said:


> The thing is India has supported Mukti Bahini, LTTE for decades and now supporting BLA, TTP etc.
> 
> If you don't consider it supporting terrorists how do you expect other countries to designate your militants/freedom fighters as "terrorists"?


Such sorts of ridiculous intellectual jugglery really don't fit someone when his own country itself had lost a good number of its own forces in counter terrorism ops. Next time, don't blame those fanatic Indian zealots when God forbid something similar happens in Pakistan.


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## Dazzler

Areesh said:


> Lol youtube is the proof.



Seems like after that 26/11 dossier, these guys will take anything as a proof.

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## Areesh

cerberus said:


> No official document or even a report available i n media available IAF Not even recognized It Its False Please show Photo graphic Evidence



It is on youtube. Go find it.

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## Dazzler

Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec



Lol, here comes the troll brigade, call your mates from other forums as well or have it announced on the media if you can.

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## cerberus

Dazzler said:


> you need to have your eyes checked mate, and do some research before jumping the guns. See some videos on how a cluster bomb unit and a dumb bomb impacts the target etc.
> 
> And please, stop watching bollywood fantasies and crappy media headlines before coming to this forum or be ready to face more embarrassment.


Pakistan Knows art denial It was Similar in Kargil war Later Has to except same Lines which you call bollywood stories 

Now After OBL Accident Its more Evident


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688488454171131904

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## Al-zakir

monitor said:


> *Attack on occupation forces are not Terrorist attack as long as they don't harm innocent civilian . Kashmir is a disputed land and its peoples should get the right to decide their fate . if Indian help during Bangladesh Liberation war was not supporting terrorist activities or supporting disintegration of a country then Pakistan's support of Kashmirs are not any thing supporting terrorism or crime .*



Well said. It's time for India to withdraw from Kashmir, peacefully.

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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> Pakistan Knows art denial It was Similar in Kargil Later Has to except same Lines which you call bollywood stories



are you really that gullible or does it just happen on this forum? Just curious.


----------



## The Eagle

cerberus said:


> Attacks still happening Zarb -e-azab or not day before Mohmand agency ,quetta blast Many attacks Many attacks Unless Pakistan changes its policy of Good and bad terrorists



Well no need to tell you and start with you like you know nothing but i can see you heartily cheering those attacks inside Pakistan but it is not the policy of us as there is only one rule, search, identify and hunt the terrorists though whatever you have uttered about our alleged policy, just read & listen Ajit Doval to understand such formula of good & bad yet you are still at liberty to not share that knowledge or acceptance. Also, that zee type media and investigators like Arnab are misleading the sane minds, avoid them.


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## Umair Nawaz

cerberus said:


> *Similar Operation are done by TTP in GHQ Rawalpindi ,Mehran
> 
> It don't Mean Pakistan army filled With traitors
> SPJ Owned by these Militias Elbow pad to gun are all Military grade *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Don't Say indian forces are Not selling them these also
> View attachment 335610





cerberus said:


> *Similar Operation are done by TTP in GHQ Rawalpindi ,Mehran
> 
> It don't Mean Pakistan army filled With traitors
> SPJ Owned by these Militias Elbow pad to gun are all Military grade *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Don't Say indian forces are Not selling them these also
> View attachment 335610


currency can be found anywhere, im sure in dehli's money exchange offices there would be plenty of it. But as a Kashmiri i would be glad if we truly r supporting them, since yr own government r supporting terrorism in our country, be it giving our terrorist Brahamdad Bugti citizenship, sending yr serving Naval officers like Kulbhushan Yadav in Pakistan as well as launching a balochi language radio station in jammu to instigate baloch people against their own country as well as yr Afghan conciliates training and financing TTP.


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## WaLeEdK2

cerberus said:


> Pakistan Knows art denial It was Similar in Kargil Later Has to except same Lines which you call bollywood stories



The art of asking for evidence 

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/worl...igation-we-reject-this-pak-on-uri-attack.html


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## Dazzler

kahonapyarhai said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688488454171131904



Come on, the man was having fun with media.


----------



## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec



No. Modi will rather invite ISI to investigate these attacks and we have to bear the shame of seeing them smiling and taking a leisurely walk in our army base where these men were attacked by their cowardly proxies.

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## Hiptullha

cerberus said:


> No official document or even a report available i n media available IAF Not even recognized It Its False Please show Photo graphic Evidence





> In early 1966, the MNF cadres overran almost the whole of Mizoram, including its capital Aizwal. They also captured the Aizwal treasury and surrounded the headquarters of 1 Assam Rifles, and Assam Rifles posts at Champai, Darngaon, Vaphai, Lungleh and Demagiri.
> 
> *The IAF was tasked to fly in troops in Mi-4 helicopters into the besieged Assam Rifles camps, with fighter escorts, and to strafe rebel strongholds if called for -- which it carried out on the afternoon of March 5th and extensively on the 6th.*
> 
> The IAF Toofani fighters of 29 Squadron operating from Kumbhirgram and Hunter fighters of 17 Squadron operating from Jorhat later undertook independent missions to suppress the MNF cadres so as to enable the helicopters to fly in troop reinforcements.


Source: Rediff

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## cerberus

WaLeEdK2 said:


> The art of asking for evidence
> 
> http://www.deccanchronicle.com/worl...igation-we-reject-this-pak-on-uri-attack.html


I don't think It Evident Now After Worlds Biggest terrorist was Just staying few KM from you National capital


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## Areesh

kahonapyarhai said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688488454171131904



So he gave permission today. Why??


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## The Eagle

Areesh said:


> It is on youtube. Go find it.



That's called counter evidence from the same source of the alleged complainant.

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## cerberus

Hiptullha said:


> Source: Rediff


OMG M-4 was not aven attack helo Its transport heli what Epic Fail


Just like i said any Photo graphic evidence or Image


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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> No. Modi will rather invite ISI to investigate these attacks and we have to bear the shame of them seeing them smiling and taking a leisurely walk in our army base where these men were attacked by their cowardly proxies.


Yup, that is more than likely, sadly no depths India sinks to will surprise me now. 

And these so-called leaders have the affront to label themselves "nationalists".


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## cerberus

kahonapyarhai said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688488454171131904


t

And what this Tweet topic has to do with this


----------



## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> I don't think It Evident Now After Worlds Biggest terrorist was Just staying few KM from you National capital



Hmm, any proof like a photo or video to support your claim? I am yet to see one.


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## The Eagle

Areesh said:


> So he gave permission today. Why??



Because Pakistan is all set to highlight India's atrocities in Kashmir during UNGA's session after earlier those questions asked few days back in UN and US stance. So it was necessary to counter the moment and pressure but I am sure, it is going to back fire like those Baluchistan and GB statements and going to favour more to the Kashmir Cause. Those lives are lost merely for the political gain of NaMO that people needs to understand. Occupying never leads to peace but resistance and their will be losses for both, the occupiers and resistance.

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## cerberus

Dazzler said:


> Hmm, any proof like a photo or video to proof your claim? I am yet to see one.


Ask USA they claim it And there world are taken more credible than any force on this planet Its Diplomatically Evident


----------



## Hiptullha

cerberus said:


> OMG M-4 was not aven attack helo Its transport heli what Epic
> 
> Just like i said any Photo graphic evidence or Image



I'll just keep providing you with source after source (all Indian) and watch you deny. 

*Air attacks in Mizoram, 1966 - our dirty, little secret*



> By March 2, the MNA had overrun the Aizawl treasury and armoury and was at the headquarters of the Assam Rifles. It had also captured several smaller towns south of Aizawl. The military tried to ferry troops and weapons by helicopter, but was driven away by MNA snipers.
> 
> So, at 11:30 am on March 5, the air force attacked Aizawl with heavy machine gun fire. On March 6, the attack intensified, and incendiary bombs were dropped. This killed innocents and completely destroyed the four largest areas of the city: Republic Veng, Hmeichche Veng, Dawrpui Veng and Chhinga Veng.
> 
> Locals left their homes and fled into the hills in panic. The MNA melted away into surrounding gorges, forests and hills, to camps in Burma and the then East Pakistan. The air force strafed Aizawl and other areas till March 13. One local told a human rights committee set up by Khasi legislators GG Swell and Rev Nichols Roy that, "There were two types of planes which flew over Aizawl — good planes and angry planes. The good planes were those which flew comparatively slowly and did not spit out fi ..

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## Super Falcon

Bebas modi

If you kill innocent people they have right to defend and they are attacking military not common civilians as u do


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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Yup, that is more than likely, sadly no depths India sinks to will surprise me now.
> 
> And these so-called leaders have the affront to label themselves "nationalists".



That is why all these Rafale threads seems farcical at times like these. Better we disband our army and buy bangles en masse. What use is having an army and airforce when they exist just to take gut shots after gut shots

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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> Ask USA they claim it And there world are taken more credible than any force on this planet Its Diplomatically Evident



Sorry mate, it was you who claimed it in this thread as if you saw OBL getting killed so now prove it.


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

Areesh said:


> So he gave permission today. Why??




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/579620100874989568

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## Bratva

cerberus said:


> *Similar Operation are done by TTP in GHQ Rawalpindi ,Mehran
> 
> It don't Mean Pakistan army filled With traitors
> SPJ Owned by these Militias Elbow pad to gun are all Military grade *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Don't Say indian forces are Not selling them these also
> View attachment 335610





Haters will say it was fake indian money recovered from Zarb e Azb

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## Hellfire

@Joe Shearer @nair @cerberus

As received


Attack started at 0515 hr. The area hit was the administrative area where the FOL had been dumped and tankers with diesel were parked. The diesel was being filled into barrels earlier and the strength was high due to that in the adjacent area. The militants lobbed 17 grenades as per witnesses into the dump, which caught fire and quickly engulfed the tents and temporary habitats nearby wherein the troops who were assigned the duty of the fuel refilling were sleeping.

Since it was diesel it effectively acted as a air fuel bomb. 13 soldiers had no chance to escape and were charred instantaneously, 32 injured.

Maps recovered are marked in _Pashtun _language.

As per plan which was written in directives, they were to kill unarmed troops in barrack area, then hit the adjacent medical aid post and thence explode themselves in the officer's mess around the location. In the ensuing confusion, the militants got disoriented and headed into a barrack where one was killed by a 19 year old new recruit who was gunned down and is critically injured. The militants hid in barrack and put up resistance till 4 PARA SF cleared them up.

Hence the smoke as evident from pictures.

This is as I predicted, an inside job with information passed by some one who is working for army.

4 more died in hospital and hence total of 17 so far with few critically injured.

@Spectre

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## Spectre

http://www.firstpost.com/india/uri-...-strike-keep-media-jingoists-out-3009714.html

_As provocations go, this is as big as it can get. The attack on the infantry battalion at Uri in Baramulla district, which claimed lives of 17 soldiers, stands out for its brazenness and in-your-face quality. “*Yes, we have done it. We will do it again, and again. What can you do*?” This, clearly, is the question and statement as well, from the perpetrators to the Indian authorities. Now, it’s for the government to respond. If the response is not adequate and proportionate to the damage caused, then it could end up with egg on its face._
_
@scorpionx @hellfire @Joe Shearer @Levina @Abingdonboy _

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> That is why all these Rafale threads seems farcical at times like these. Better we disband our army and buy bangles en masse. What use is having an army and airforce when they exist just to take gut shots after gut shots


Too true sir.

Spending the ungodly amount of $40-50BN USD a year on "defence" almost seems like a sick joke around these times. Might as well call it a day, spend a 10th of this on the border forces, disband the rest and give the balance to educational scholarships for the brightest in India.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
*India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
PTI | Updated: Sep 18, 2016, 09.31 PM IST
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland: Jaitley
Security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge"
Uri terror attack. (TOI photo by Bilal Bahadur)




JALANDHAR: Asserting that those behind the attack on the Army base in Uri in Jammu & Kashmir will face the consequences, Union Minister Arun Jaitley on Sunday said India will intensify diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally+ .

Holding Pakistan responsible for the attack+ , in which 17 armymen were killed+ and 19 injured, he said "since independence, Pakistan has not accepted Jammu & Kashmir as an integral part of India and this is the reason that terror attacks happen in the country with its support."

Jaitley described the terror strike as "a highly condemnable act of cowardice" and a "major challenge" for the forces.

"The perpetrators of the Uri terror attack will face consequences+ . Diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally will be intensified," he said.

In a series of tweets on microblogging site, the Finance Minister said+ , "Perpetrators of Uri terror attack shall be punished. My thoughts & prayers are with families of our soldiers injured & martyred."

"Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland." he said in a tweet.

Earlier, he had said that security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge".

"These are challenges to our security," the Finance Minister had said, condemningthe terrorist attack+ on a camp at Army's Brigade Headquarters in Uri town.

".. Pathankot and Uri (terror attacks) appear to indicate that these (fidayeen attacks) have restarted again. And I think this is a major challenge which I am sure our security forces will gear up to respond," Jaitley told reporters.

He said that in recent years there had been an increasing reliance "on activities like stone throwing agitations" which were instigated from across the border.

Heavily armed militants stormed a battalion headquarters of the Army in North Kashmir's Uri town in the wee hours today, killing 17 jawans and injuring 19 other personnel in the strike in which four ultras were neutralised.

In January, seven military personnel were killed when six terrorists attacked the Pathankot air base.

Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland.

— Arun Jaitley (@arunjaitley) September 18, 2016

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ley-after-Uri-attack/articleshow/54394810.cms


----------



## cerberus

hellfire said:


> @Joe Shearer @nair @cerberus
> 
> As received
> 
> 
> Attack started at 0515 hr. The area hit was the administrative area where the FOL had been dumped and tankers with diesel were parked. The diesel was being filled into barrels earlier and the strength was high due to that in the adjacent area. The militants lobbed 17 grenades as per witnesses into the dump, which caught fire and quickly engulfed the tents and temporary habitats nearby wherein the troops who were assigned the duty of the fuel refilling were sleeping.
> 
> Since it was diesel it effectively acted as a air fuel bomb. 13 soldiers had no chance to escape and were charred instantaneously, 32 injured.
> 
> Maps recovered are marked in _Pashtun _language.
> 
> As per plan which was written in directives, they were to kill unarmed troops in barrack area, then hit the adjacent medical aid post and thence explode themselves in the officer's mess around the location. In the ensuing confusion, the militants got disoriented and headed into a barrack where one was killed by a 19 year old new recruit who was gunned down and is critically injured. The militants hid in barrack and put up resistance till 4 PARA SF cleared them up.
> 
> Hence the smoke as evident from pictures.
> 
> This is as I predicted, an inside job with information passed by some one who is working for army.
> 
> 4 more died in hospital and hence total of 17 so far with few critically injured.
> 
> @Spectre


I Know this Its very Serious Matter Tomorrow I will go to Sena bhawan To find out what's cooking or its same attitude Like before


----------



## Irfan Baloch

mshan44 said:


> well first get your facts straight kashmir is not india


I agree 
their words and actions clearly show that India treat Kashmir and Kashmiris as an occupied territory and occupied people.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> http://www.firstpost.com/india/uri-...-strike-keep-media-jingoists-out-3009714.html
> 
> _As provocations go, this is as big as it can get. The attack on the infantry battalion at Uri in Baramulla district, which claimed lives of 17 soldiers, stands out for its brazenness and in-your-face quality. “*Yes, we have done it. We will do it again, and again. What can you do*?” This, clearly, is the question and statement as well, from the perpetrators to the Indian authorities. Now, it’s for the government to respond. If the response is not adequate and proportionate to the damage caused, then it could end up with egg on its face.
> 
> @scorpionx @hellfire @Joe Shearer @Levina @Abingdonboy _


And this is the problem, the WORST case scenario is that the government ends up with "Egg on its face". These so-called leaders are so far removed from danger that they care little for the costs their countrymen are paying for their incompetence. 

17 soldiers are DEAD (with many more injured) but heaven forbid a poor politician figuratively end up with "egg on their face".

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## Spectre

kahonapyarhai said:


> *India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
> *India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
> PTI | Updated: Sep 18, 2016, 09.31 PM IST
> *HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland: Jaitley
> Security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge"
> Uri terror attack. (TOI photo by Bilal Bahadur)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JALANDHAR: Asserting that those behind the attack on the Army base in Uri in Jammu & Kashmir will face the consequences, Union Minister Arun Jaitley on Sunday said India will intensify diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally+ .
> 
> Holding Pakistan responsible for the attack+ , in which 17 armymen were killed+ and 19 injured, he said "since independence, Pakistan has not accepted Jammu & Kashmir as an integral part of India and this is the reason that terror attacks happen in the country with its support."
> 
> Jaitley described the terror strike as "a highly condemnable act of cowardice" and a "major challenge" for the forces.
> 
> "The perpetrators of the Uri terror attack will face consequences+ . Diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally will be intensified," he said.
> 
> In a series of tweets on microblogging site, the Finance Minister said+ , "Perpetrators of Uri terror attack shall be punished. My thoughts & prayers are with families of our soldiers injured & martyred."
> 
> "Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland." he said in a tweet.
> 
> Earlier, he had said that security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge".
> 
> "These are challenges to our security," the Finance Minister had said, condemningthe terrorist attack+ on a camp at Army's Brigade Headquarters in Uri town.
> 
> ".. Pathankot and Uri (terror attacks) appear to indicate that these (fidayeen attacks) have restarted again. And I think this is a major challenge which I am sure our security forces will gear up to respond," Jaitley told reporters.
> 
> He said that in recent years there had been an increasing reliance "on activities like stone throwing agitations" which were instigated from across the border.
> 
> Heavily armed militants stormed a battalion headquarters of the Army in North Kashmir's Uri town in the wee hours today, killing 17 jawans and injuring 19 other personnel in the strike in which four ultras were neutralised.
> 
> In January, seven military personnel were killed when six terrorists attacked the Pathankot air base.
> 
> Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland.
> 
> — Arun Jaitley (@arunjaitley) September 18, 2016
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ley-after-Uri-attack/articleshow/54394810.cms



Mr. Jaitley.. We don't give a damn about isolating Pakistan. Tell me what is our Government doing to avenge these deaths. What is the nature and quantum of punishment?

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## Irfan Baloch

Bezerk said:


> Two soldiers of the occupation forces have died
> 
> Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack
> By IANS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Publish Date: 18-Sep-16 9:43 AM
> Two soldiers were killed and several others injured when militants attacked an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri town on Sunday morning, said defence sources.
> 
> The sources said the six injured soldiers were airlifted from the border town to the army's base hospital in Srinagar city as heavy firing continued inside the camp which was attacked around 5.30 a.m. by fidayeen (suicide) militants.
> 
> "Gunmen attacked the rear base camp of an infantry battalion and not the headquarters of 12 Brigade in Uri today (Sunday) morning which is posted on the Line of Control (LoC)," the sources added.
> 
> In New Delhi, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is reported to have cancelled his visit to Russia and the US. He has called for a high-level meeting on Sunday to discuss the situation is Kashmir.
> 
> Kashmir: Two soldiers killed in Uri army camp attack
> http://www.greaterkashmir.com


we should prepare ourselves for retaliatory attacks on schools and mosques inside Pakistan. I think Modi's war mongering has caught up with Kashmiris.

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## Bratva

Spectre said:


> Mr. Jaitley.. We don't give a damn about isolating Pakistan. Tell me what is our Government doing to avenge these deaths. What is the nature and quantum of punishment?




@Irfan Baloch @waz Keep this jingoistic troll off this thread. From the get go, he is insinuating Pakistan in this attack without a shred of proof and spewing hate and racist crap about Killing Pakistani Innocents. Either thread ban him or delete his posts so to bring him back into his senses. These kind of people are the reason Samjhota attack are blamed on Pakistan

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## Hellfire

@Spectre @Abingdonboy

The immediate plan is to strike the group responsible. It is useless to point fingers at any nation. An adversary will always work on your weakness, criticising the adversary is counter-productive as it gives you an incentive, nay an excuse to pass off your own shortfalls onto the other.

Having said that, the most pertinent issue is that there was a complete failure of command and control and SOPs were not followed.

Such attacks are expected when a unit is in process of induction/de-induction. The head taking incident of 2 Aug 2011, or Hemraj, all the while units were in transition. It is an utter failure of the concerned personnel in charge.

The re-look has to be from inside.

That a retaliation will come, surely and swiftly is a given. That much has been assured by the Corps Commander personally, something which was always done in secrecy, is being assured publicly for the first time by the armed forces. Such statements, have never been made by an Army Corps Commander previously.

Also, the Army Commander has told the government of J&K to get its act together and deal with the situation on ground emphasising no role of army in civil control. (@Joe Shearer @WAJsal)

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*Pak journos blame India for Uri attack*


*"Indian Army is massacring Kashmiris; as you sow, so shall you reap," wrote Khwaja M Asif, the federal minister for water and power and defence of Pakistan govt*









New Delhi, September 18: Just hours after the deadly surgical strike in north Kashmir located Uri town, the blame game has started once again with all the Indian authorities attacking Pakistan for the fidayeen attack and vice versa.

#UriAttack remained the top trend on Twitter for most of the Sunday with Indians expressing their rage against Pakistanis for the incident. Some Twitterati demanded action from Modi government while others asked PM to forget about the polite stand towards them.

At least 17 Indian soldiers were killed in the attack while several others were injured. It is being considered as one of the biggest surgical strikes in India in past 15 years. The injured have been admitted to the army base camp hospital in Srinagar and are under treatment.

Meanwhile, as the government and Indians microblogging website users began targeting Pakistan for Uri attacks, some Pakistanis countered back with their views and theories.

A senior investigation news reporter and editor of 'The News,' Ansar Abbasi said, "Uri Attack appears to have been planned to target Pakistan and divert world attention from India's atrocities in Occupied Kashmir." He went on to retweet more posts against India, mostly the ones that talked about the atrocities of Indian army in Kashmir.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777448798880690176

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777512051149332480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777460459637239808

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777413079265075200

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777413207061368832

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777455633108967424
https://twitter.com/TalatHussain12/status/777451648360783873?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Meanwhile, Pakistan's foreign Office spokesperson, Nafees Zakaria told news agency Reuters, "India immediately puts blame on Pakistan without doing any investigation. We reject this."


http://www.indiasamvad.co.in/specia...ia-for-uri-attack-reminds-of-atrocities-16341

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## Irfan Baloch

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And I would suggest that you people do the same !
> 
> You can't expect others to remain respectful while you talk crap.
> 
> Respect is earned not demanded.. @Irfan Baloch.


Indians openly advocate and threaten Pakistan with terrorism after these attacks.
note this attack is not on a place of worship or learning but an army camp which is legitimate since its a war of freedom for Kashmiris. some solace for those who lost their loved at the hands of Indian forces during protests.

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## Hellfire

cerberus said:


> I Know this Its very Serious Matter Tomorrow I will go to Sena bhawan To find out what's cooking or its same attitude Like before



You will get nothing ... these things are not planned at sena bhawan

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*Uri attack: Pak army asks for 'actionable intelligence'*

*Uri attack: Pak army asks for 'actionable intelligence'*
PTI | Updated: Sep 18, 2016, 09.01 PM IST
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Pakistan has refuted as "unfounded and premature" India's charge that it was behind the terrorist attack in Jammu & Kashmir's Uri
Pakistani army has demanded "actionable intelligence" to support New Delhi's accusation





Uri terror attack. (TOI photo)
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday refuted as "unfounded and premature" India's charge that it was behind the terrorist attack+ in Jammu & Kashmir's Uri that killed 17 soldiers with Pakistani army demanding "actionable intelligence" to support New Delhi's accusation.

Following the dawn attack, India blamed Pakistan for the latest attack on the Army. Home Minister Rajnath Singh directly attacked Pakistan saying it was a " terrorist state+ " and should be isolated.

Pakistan army spokesman Lt Gen Asim Saleem Bajwa said that following the attackDirector General of Military Operation+ (DGMO) of the two countries discussed the situation along the line of control through hotline.

"Refuting the unfounded and pre-mature Indian allegation, Pakistani DGMO asked his counterpart to share any actionable intelligence," Radio Pakistan reported citing an ISPR release.

Bajwa reiterated that no infiltration was allowed from the Pakistani soil because of "water-tight arrangements" in place on both sides of LoC and the Working Boundary.

Heavily armed militants stormed a battalion headquarters of the Army in North Kashmir's Uri town in the wee hours, killing 17 jawans and injuring 19 other personnel in the strike in which four ultras were neutralised.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ionable-intelligence/articleshow/54394359.cms


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## Dazzler

hellfire said:


> @Joe Shearer @nair @cerberus
> 
> As received
> 
> 
> Attack started at 0515 hr. The area hit was the administrative area where the FOL had been dumped and tankers with diesel were parked. The diesel was being filled into barrels earlier and the strength was high due to that in the adjacent area. The militants lobbed 17 grenades as per witnesses into the dump, which caught fire and quickly engulfed the tents and temporary habitats nearby wherein the troops who were assigned the duty of the fuel refilling were sleeping.
> 
> Since it was diesel it effectively acted as a air fuel bomb. 13 soldiers had no chance to escape and were charred instantaneously, 32 injured.
> 
> Maps recovered are marked in _Pashtun _language.
> 
> As per plan which was written in directives, they were to kill unarmed troops in barrack area, then hit the adjacent medical aid post and thence explode themselves in the officer's mess around the location. In the ensuing confusion, the militants got disoriented and headed into a barrack where one was killed by a 19 year old new recruit who was gunned down and is critically injured. The militants hid in barrack and put up resistance till 4 PARA SF cleared them up.
> 
> Hence the smoke as evident from pictures.
> 
> This is as I predicted, an inside job with information passed by some one who is working for army.
> 
> 4 more died in hospital and hence total of 17 so far with few critically injured.
> 
> @Spectre



no dossier yet, anything like phone calls to mama chacha taya or aunti before the attack etc...?

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## Hellfire

Dazzler said:


> no dossier yet, anything like phone calls to mama chacha taya or aunti before the attack etc...?



nothing ....

Posted as received. JeM has been identified as the group involved so far.

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> @Spectre @Abingdonboy
> 
> The immediate plan is to strike the group responsible. It is useless to point fingers at any nation. An adversary will always work on your weakness, criticising the adversary os counter-productive as it gives you an incentive, nay an excuse to pass off your own shortfalls onto the other.
> 
> Having said that, the most pertinent issue is that there was a complete failure of command and control and SOPs were not followed.
> 
> Such attacks are expected when a unit is in process of induction/de-induction. The head taking incident of 2 Aug 2011, or Hemraj, all the while units were in transition. It is an utter failure of the concerned personnel in charge.
> 
> The re-look has to be from inside.
> 
> That a retaliation will come, surely and swiftly is a given. That much has been assured by the Corps Commander personally, something which was always done in secrecy, is being assured publicly for the first time by the armed forces. Such statements, have never been made by an Army Corps Commander previously.
> 
> Also, the Army Commander has told the government of J&K to get its act together and deal with the situation on ground emphasising no role of army in civil control. (@Joe Shearer @WAJsal)



If you follow my recent posts the object of my criticism has been the current Indian Govt which has deceived me personally and countless others who voted for them with all it's false promises of better security and new approach to dealing with terrorism from within and beyond.

Instead all we have seen are useless dossiers, bear hugs with the leader of the offending country and the black day when the perps themselves where invited to investigate Pathankot attack in a futile and foolish hope of reciprocity which was promptly rebuffed within a day of them going back to Pakistan.

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## Abingdonboy

hellfire said:


> @Spectre @Abingdonboy
> 
> The immediate plan is to strike the group responsible])


There are no such plans, they only exist in the minds of the powerless electorate and the military whose hands are entirely tied behind their back. 

In two weeks the bodies of the brave dead will be long since ashes, the wounded will be in some distant hospital entirely out of the limelight and it will be business as usual. 


Perhaps I'm being too unkind, it is probably more likely to be the case 7 days.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE



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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> @Spectre @Abingdonboy
> 
> The immediate plan is to strike the group responsible. It is useless to point fingers at any nation. An adversary will always work on your weakness, criticising the adversary os counter-productive as it gives you an incentive, nay an excuse to pass off your own shortfalls onto the other.



I am sorry but it wont happen. because your current administration considers the leadership in power inside Pakistan as its asset. and that Asset uses the these elements for its political muscle.
due to your blind hatred you have been dismissing and taunting the Pakistan army's fight against the terrorists... but your beloved Nawa Sherif protects the terror camps in Murdkay and southern Punjab.. and wont let the rangers operation adn calls it attack on democracy.
Hafizz Saeed like trolls openly live there at the expense paid by Sherif family and other sectarian terrorists that are accused of crossing LoC as well are also protected by Nawaz Sherif. 

whenever
there is a word of operation in Punjab... your friend calls Modi and Modi orders your forces to start firing alsong the working 
boundary

@DESERT FIGHTER

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## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> http://www.firstpost.com/india/uri-...-strike-keep-media-jingoists-out-3009714.html
> 
> _As provocations go, this is as big as it can get. The attack on the infantry battalion at Uri in Baramulla district, which claimed lives of 17 soldiers, stands out for its brazenness and in-your-face quality. “*Yes, we have done it. We will do it again, and again. What can you do*?” This, clearly, is the question and statement as well, from the perpetrators to the Indian authorities. Now, it’s for the government to respond. If the response is not adequate and proportionate to the damage caused, then it could end up with egg on its face.
> 
> @scorpionx @hellfire @Joe Shearer @Levina @Abingdonboy _


And Indian leadership will end up with egg on face just like Kargil, 26/11 or parliament attack. We are a traditionally soft nation led by inept and the corrupt. Most we can do is a costly armed mobilization in deserts of Rajasthan and nothing else. Lets live with it.

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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> If you follow my recent posts the object of my criticism has been the current Indian Govt is power which has deceived me personally with all it's false promises of better security and new approach to dealing with terrorism from within and beyond.
> 
> But all we have seen is useless dossiers and the black day when the perps themselves where invited to investigate Pathankot attack in a futile and foolish hope of reciprocity which was promptly rebuffed within a day of them going back to Pakistan.



@Spectre 

I have already highlighted the lapses on our account. Blaming Pakistan gets you nothing. First and foremost one has to get their own act together.

The civil administration has failed to pacify the environment. This was, but to be expected. We all were expecting it. Please re-call, in case you have read my posts over the past few weeks, I had indicated a worsening of situation. It is not as if it was unexpected.

This was a vulnerable garrison, it got targeted. What are you expecting from present government?

The first and foremost thing that is going to happen is the specific group will be targeted. That is the main thing. Rest all is ancillary.

Army Commander has already told both PDP and BJP to get their act together.

There is your modi.

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## Spectre

Bratva said:


> @Irfan Baloch @waz Keep this jingoistic troll off this thread. From the get go, he is insinuating Pakistan in this attack without a shred of proof and spewing hate and racist crap about Killing Pakistani Innocents. Either thread ban him or delete his posts so to bring him back into his senses. These kind of people are the reason Samjhota attack are blamed on Pakistan



Indian Army has attributed these attacks to Jaish which is expressly being protected and given sanctuary by Pakistan. I need no more proof.

As for the other part show me a single post of mine where I have called for killing of innocents. One need not resort to lies to make an argument.

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## Hellfire

Abingdonboy said:


> There are no such plans, they only exist in the minds of the powerless electorate and the military whose hands are entirely tied behind their back.
> 
> In two weeks the bodies of the brave dead will be long since ashes, the wounded will be in some distant hospital entirely out of the limelight and it will be business as usual.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I'm being too unkind, it is probably more likely to be the case 7 days.



I will totally disagree with you. I have often given one example of a retaliation. for Head taking on 02 Aug 2011, reciprocal retaliation was carried out on 30 Aug 2011 by 4 PARA. We never publicise these efforts and as a local commander, you can take action at sub-unit level.

The army commander northern command used to take a call on these strikes and they never made it to public domain. I have, on a number of times, clarified what is the Indian SOP. 

It is wait and watch. It is against the specific group/launch pads that the strike will occur.

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## nair

Dazzler said:


> no dossier yet, anything like phone calls to mama chacha taya or aunti before the attack etc...?


Nothing for your ready denials yet.....


----------



## Joe Shearer

salarsikander said:


> @Joe Shearer Extremely pleased to see you back on the board.
> 
> In your esteemed opinion , What can be done to diffuse the tension ?



This is dangerous; but let me stall for time by asking you to clarify: which tension? That between Pakistan and India? Or that between separatist Kashmiris and the security forces, the government in Kashmir and the government in Delhi? 

BTW, I prefer to be 'absent', on leave, if you like, although I do keep up with any discussions which are worthwhile. This is specifically in response to you.

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## nair

Irfan Baloch said:


> we should prepare ourselves for retaliatory attacks on schools and mosques inside Pakistan. I think Modi's war mongering has caught up with Kashmiris.


That was pretty low.....

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> @Spectre
> 
> I have already highlighted the lapses on our account. Blaming Pakistan gets you nothing. First and foremost one has to get their own act together.
> 
> The civil administration has failed to pacify the environment. This was, but to be expected. We all were expecting it. Please re-call, in case you have read my posts over the past few weeks, I had indicated a worsening of situation. It is not as if it was unexpected.
> 
> This was a vulnerable garrison, it got targeted. What are you expecting from present government?
> 
> The first and foremost thing that is going to happen is the specific group will be targeted. That is the main thing. Rest all is ancillary.
> 
> Army Commander has already told both PDP and BJP to get their act together.
> 
> There is your modi.



Two things

1. As i stated, I was expecting present govt to establish red lines and enforce them, They failed at enforcement part by not taking material action after Pathankot and as a result we face what happened today. 

2. While Pakistan has acted on expected lines by exploiting our lapses it doesn't justify or absolve criticism directed towards it however I agree we gain nothing by just screaming murder at top our lungs. It is what we do or don't do next which will lend weight to our words.


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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> I will totally disagree with you. I have often given one example of a retaliation. for Head taking on 02 Aug 2011, reciprocal retaliation was carried out on 30 Aug 2011 by 4 PARA. We never publicise these efforts and as a local commander, you can take action at sub-unit level.
> 
> The army commander northern command used to take a call on these strikes and they never made it to public domain. I have, on a number of times, clarified what is the Indian SOP.
> 
> It is wait and watch. It is against the specific group/launch pads that the strike will occur.



I have heard from sources that corp commanders have been defanged with Delhi micro managing almost everything after V.K. Singh era.


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## Abingdonboy

kahonapyarhai said:


>


They have left out the infamous "no talks over the body of our soldiers" remarks but even still, clearly Modi and his party have been left exposed as the paper kittens we all hoped they would not end up Being.


Modi is clearly not alone here, every single part, government and PM since independence has been cut from the same spineless and self serving cloth.


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## nair

hellfire said:


> nothing ....
> 
> Posted as received. JeM has been identified as the group involved so far.


Sop's are not followed??? This is not the first time.... Wonder why lessons are not learnt from failures....
.

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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sorry but it wont happen. *because your current administration considers the leadership in power inside Pakistan as its asset. and that Asset uses the these elements for its political muscle.*



My dear sir, a few weeks back when I said that over Kashmir, Baluchistan will be raised, the same thing was said at the time to me. Yet we saw it being raised. I have no doubts as to the veracity of Baluchi accession to Pakistan, indeed I said as much to @That Guy the other day when I was asking him about the planned fencing along border with Afghanistan. But in international politics, a non-issue can be made an issue.

Am merely pointing out my assessment here too. Maybe in a few weeks time we will re-visit it?

As for the bold part, the mere fact that PA controls the foreign policy aspect of relations with India is the reason why there is a concentrated effort to engage with the civil government. PA would be loathe to give up its stranglehold on the policy and thereby undermine its own import in the societal hierarchy of Pakistan.

It is in our interest to have a civil government rather PA calling the shots over negotiations. Since this is off topic, I am sure I need not elaborate further for you to be able to conclude as to what I allude to.



Irfan Baloch said:


> due to your blind hatred you have been dismissing and taunting the Pakistan army's fight against the terrorists...



Absolutely in correct. Neither do I have any blind hatred nor have I been taunting PA over their fight against terror. In fact, I have been a proponent of calibrating our responses to provocations by addressing specified targets as required and not ratcheting up the tensions as PA is doing what we may otherwise have to do, fight these groups.

Granted you have the habit of identifying 'good' and 'bad' groups, nevertheless, you are fighting some, if not all groups, and I cheer PA for that. So you are way off about me here.



Irfan Baloch said:


> but your beloved Nawa Sherif protects the terror camps in Murdkay and southern Punjab.. and wont let the rangers operation adn calls it attack on democracy.



Yet when we do it in our territory, you raise a hue and cry. Now I wonder why?



Irfan Baloch said:


> Hafizz Saeed like trolls openly live there at the expense paid by Sherif family and other sectarian terrorists that are accused of crossing LoC as well are also protected by Nawaz Sherif.



What stops you as PA from acting against Hafeez Saeed? Act against them ... 



Irfan Baloch said:


> whenever there is a word of operation in Punjab... your friend calls Modi and Modi orders your forces to start firing *alsong the working*
> boundary



What is working boundary? LC? We dont fire across LC. And Across Sambha-Kathua-Jammu, you fire, just to tag the IB there as "working boundary" an imaginary unilateral concept of yours.

I think we have veered way off topic here.

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## SrNair

kahonapyarhai said:


> *India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
> *India will intensify efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally, says Arun Jaitley after Uri attack*
> PTI | Updated: Sep 18, 2016, 09.31 PM IST
> *HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland: Jaitley
> Security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge"
> Uri terror attack. (TOI photo by Bilal Bahadur)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JALANDHAR: Asserting that those behind the attack on the Army base in Uri in Jammu & Kashmir will face the consequences, Union Minister Arun Jaitley on Sunday said India will intensify diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally+ .
> 
> Holding Pakistan responsible for the attack+ , in which 17 armymen were killed+ and 19 injured, he said "since independence, Pakistan has not accepted Jammu & Kashmir as an integral part of India and this is the reason that terror attacks happen in the country with its support."
> 
> Jaitley described the terror strike as "a highly condemnable act of cowardice" and a "major challenge" for the forces.
> 
> "The perpetrators of the Uri terror attack will face consequences+ . Diplomatic efforts to isolate Pakistan internationally will be intensified," he said.
> 
> In a series of tweets on microblogging site, the Finance Minister said+ , "Perpetrators of Uri terror attack shall be punished. My thoughts & prayers are with families of our soldiers injured & martyred."
> 
> "Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland." he said in a tweet.
> 
> Earlier, he had said that security forces will have to work on their strategy to deal with 'fidayeen attacks' by terrorists which have emerged as a "major challenge".
> 
> "These are challenges to our security," the Finance Minister had said, condemningthe terrorist attack+ on a camp at Army's Brigade Headquarters in Uri town.
> 
> ".. Pathankot and Uri (terror attacks) appear to indicate that these (fidayeen attacks) have restarted again. And I think this is a major challenge which I am sure our security forces will gear up to respond," Jaitley told reporters.
> 
> He said that in recent years there had been an increasing reliance "on activities like stone throwing agitations" which were instigated from across the border.
> 
> Heavily armed militants stormed a battalion headquarters of the Army in North Kashmir's Uri town in the wee hours today, killing 17 jawans and injuring 19 other personnel in the strike in which four ultras were neutralised.
> 
> In January, seven military personnel were killed when six terrorists attacked the Pathankot air base.
> 
> Uri terror attack is a highly condemnable act of cowardice. Salute to our soldiers who gave supreme sacrifice to protect the motherland.
> 
> — Arun Jaitley (@arunjaitley) September 18, 2016
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ley-after-Uri-attack/articleshow/54394810.cms



We dont care these stupid political statements.
We need direct results .

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Sop's are not followed??? This is not the first time.... Wonder why lessons are not learnt from failures....
> .



As an organisation, we love to re-learn.

The problem is ... laxity by Indians as habit.

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## cerberus

hellfire said:


> You will get nothing ... these things are not planned at sena bhawan


Well I Try My Limit of being Civilian bureaucrat I Will Talk to My Boss he Is At top Level in Joint Intelligence committee Notion is We need Some action Its Very bad for are national moral


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## [Bregs]

SrNair said:


> We dont care these stupid political statements.
> We need direct results .




This is a patented response of the govt bro, they wont do anything apart from this

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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> 2. While Pakistan has acted on expected lines by exploiting our lapses it doesn't justify or absolve criticism directed towards it however I agree we gain nothing by just screaming murder at top our lungs. It is what we do or don't do next which will lend weight to our words.



Exactly. Blaming Pakistan solves nothing. We need to engage them. But at the same time, we need to work actively to address our own shortcomings.

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> Exactly. Blaming Pakistan solves nothing. We need to engage them. But at the same time, we need to work actively to address our own shortcomings.



"engage" Thanks for moment of levity on this grim day. Should have been a diplomat.


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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> I have heard from sources that corp commanders have been defanged with Delhi micro managing almost everything after V.K. Singh era.



Incorrect. The problem is if you retaliate to a fire, you are grilled as to why and what thereof. And people today are loathe to do that.

Also, we need to calibrate our responses as at places where we may dominate, we can hit. But the adversary may hit at a place where his posts dominate. Hence, things needed co-ordination.

However, I am categorically telling you, we never have been told, nor were ever told, not to retaliate for effect. Everything is a hogwash.

The real reason is to co-ordinate action in order to be effective message.



cerberus said:


> Well I Try My Limit of being Civilian bureaucrat I Will Talk to My Boss he Is At top Level in Joint Intelligence committee Notion is We need Some action Its Very bad for are national moral



Can be anyone, you won't come to know a thing till after it happens.

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## danger007

R I P brave soldiers.. what a double standards by pak members here..


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## Hellfire

SrNair said:


> Get a life you shameless moron .
> Did I already told you to not quote my post?
> What kind of shameless jerk would do that?
> 
> Noone takes you seriously .




why are you still obsessed with him? move on

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> If you follow my recent posts the object of my criticism has been the current Indian Govt which has deceived me personally and countless others who voted for them with all it's false promises of better security and new approach to dealing with terrorism from within and beyond.
> 
> Instead all we have seen are useless dossiers, bear hugs with the leader of the offending country and the black day when the perps themselves where invited to investigate Pathankot attack in a futile and foolish hope of reciprocity which was
> promptly rebuffed within a day of them going back to Pakistan.



If this means that you are seriously reviewing your wholly mistaken and misplaced political analysis, it is welcome, although the thought that it takes the deaths of 17 of our men to shake your faith is very troubling. 

This was always the party of loud-mouthed and brazen posturing, with no idea whatsoever of what to do. When it postured like this earlier, they were forgiven by one and all, and by many supporters of their belligerence, on the grounds that they had no effective power, after all. They have all the power they need, but nothing will happen from their side, nothing will happen that would not have happened with or without them. 

The best thing that they can do, in my frank opinion, the only thing that they are capable of doing, is to shut their mouths, give the armed forces wide authority to take its own steps, provided they keep the security committee informed at all times and in advance, and keep well out of posturing, or even saying anything in public. Rajnath Singh in particular. Bloody loser.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> As an organisation, we love to re-learn.
> 
> The problem is ... l*axity by Indians as habi*t.



Well armed forces is the last place you want it....... I thought we called ourselves as a professional armed forces (I know this is not the right time criticise army..... But)

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> Incorrect. The problem is if you retaliate to a fire, you are grilled as to why and what thereof. And people today are loathe to do that.
> 
> Also, we need to calibrate our responses as at places where we may dominate, we can hit. But the adversary may hit at a place where his posts dominate. Hence, things needed co-ordination.
> 
> However, I am categorically telling you, we never have been told, nor were ever told, not to retaliate for effect. Everything is a hogwash.
> 
> The real reason is to co-ordinate action in order to be effective message.



I won't push this point as all I have is hearsay although very candid ones but then after retirement service folks look at things with a different PoV.


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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> "engage" Thanks for moment of levity on this grim day. Should have been a diplomat.



Things have broad connotations @Spectre

Watch things carefully. We are not that soft. Post-Hemraj, we had planned strike missions as per official directive, post Maldives we had planned military intervention when najeeb fell. The political brass backed out.

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## Robinhood Pandey

danger007 said:


> . what a double standards by pak members here..



I said it once and i am saying it again . . dont expect otherwise from your enemies. 

On.T- RIP brothers. . . thank you for your services to this Nation.

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## Joe Shearer

Abingdonboy said:


> There are no such plans, they only exist in the minds of the powerless electorate and the military whose hands are entirely tied behind their back.
> 
> In two weeks the bodies of the brave dead will be long since ashes, the wounded will be in some distant hospital entirely out of the limelight and it will be business as usual.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I'm being too unkind, it is probably more likely to be the case 7 days.



I regret that I can't agree with you. It is more plausible that those who are actually in service and who have current and up-to-date information will have a more accurate picture of what lies in prospect. However, none of us has anything worthwhile to say on the matter until there is a clearer direction. At the moment, we are sharing opinions.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Like why on god's earth would we support Indian military ?

We will support Kashmiri people

If these people were serving they should have protected people and not shot pellets and bullets on Kashmiri people


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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Well armed forces is the last place you want it....... I thought we called ourselves as a professional armed forces (I know this is not the right time criticise army..... But)




That is what is wrong with IA. Every officer wants to do something new and leave his name .... reinvent the wheel.

You recall the NE ambush?

Rule of thumb in CI ops in Jungle, never go and never come back from CI ops in jungle in a vehicle. The moment you do that, you are restricted to road/track and your domination of the area is lost.

And what happened?

Similarly, during induction and de-induction, never ever let your guard down.

These are age old issues which every new comer thinks, after seeing Rambo, he knows inside out.

A militant/combatant prepared to die for his/her cause, is one to fear. you can only limit your casualties, you cant stop them until and unless you are very lucky.

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## nair

Spectre said:


> If you follow my recent posts the object of my criticism has been the current Indian Govt which has deceived me personally and countless others who voted for them with all it's false promises of better security and new approach to dealing with terrorism from within and beyond



I am surprised that a knowledgable guy like you have fallen for the loud noises made during the election rallies...... Even the Bakths (no pun intended) did not believe it....... These matters take its own time...... which ever govt is in power.....

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> I have heard from sources that corp commanders have been defanged with Delhi micro managing almost everything after V.K. Singh era.



Doesn't work like that. Can't.


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## waz

Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? Do you want a military response?

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> If this means that you are seriously reviewing your wholly mistaken and misplaced political analysis, it is welcome, although the thought that it takes the deaths of 17 of our men to shake your faith is very troubling.
> 
> This was always the party of loud-mouthed and brazen posturing, with no idea whatsoever of what to do. When it postured like this earlier, they were forgiven by one and all, and by many supporters of their belligerence, on the grounds that they had no effective power, after all. They have all the power they need, but nothing will happen from their side, nothing will happen that would not have happened with or without them.
> 
> The best thing that they can do, in my frank opinion, the only thing that they are capable of doing, is to shut their mouths, give the armed forces wide authority to take its own steps, provided they keep the security committee informed at all times and in advance, and keep well out of posturing, or even saying anything in public. Rajnath Singh in particular. Bloody loser.



Frankly I don't understand security and defense and this is the chief reason why I am here - to learn. 

In my opinion all the right noises where made where national security is concerned which earned them my vote and endorsement but now that I increasingly see the same nauseating pattern of back tracking and substance less posture, it is tough to to justify my support for them. 

@scorpionx words shook me to the core - learn to live with the inept.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> That is what is wrong with IA. Every officer wants to do something new and leave his name .... reinvent the wheel.
> 
> You recall the NE ambush?
> 
> Rule of thumb in CI ops in Jungle, never go and never come back from CI ops in jungle in a vehicle. The moment you do that, you are restricted to road/track and your domination of the area is lost.
> 
> And what happened?
> 
> Similarly, during induction and de-induction, never ever let your guard down.
> 
> These are age old issues which every new comer thinks, after seeing Rambo, he knows inside out.
> 
> A militant/combatant prepared to die for his/her cause, is one to fear. you can only limit your casualties, you cant stop them until and unless you are very lucky.



Sad to see that we are not learning from our mistakes..... And one must appreciate the efforts of terror handlers.... These guys are ahead ...... (sad but true)

What was our intel guys doing???? Why there was no inputs????

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## Spectre

waz said:


> Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? Do you want a military response?



For me personally - I would like to see Jaish and LeT camps taken out in terms of military action. Diplomatically incarceration and deportation of their leaders for trial would be satisfactory.

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## Robinhood Pandey

WAJsal said:


> Indian members are quite efficient, they don't even need evidence to put blame on Pakistan



Not as efficient as our neighbors who declared it False flag right after the first bullet was fired.

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## Abingdonboy

hellfire said:


> I will totally disagree with you. I have often given one example of a retaliation. for Head taking on 02 Aug 2011, reciprocal retaliation was carried out on 30 Aug 2011 by 4 PARA. We never publicise these efforts and as a local commander, you can take action at sub-unit level.
> 
> The army commander northern command used to take a call on these strikes and they never made it to public domain. I have, on a number of times, clarified what is the Indian SOP.
> 
> It is wait and watch. It is against the specific group/launch pads that the strike will occur.


Piecemeal at best and wholly insufficient. Are we meant to be satisfied by a unpublicised localised counter attack that leaves the hierarchy and entire terror infrastructure completely untouched safe to carry out a repeat at their whim?

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## Joe Shearer

hellfire said:


> That is what is wrong with IA. Every officer wants to do something new and leave his name .... reinvent the wheel.
> 
> You recall the NE ambush?
> 
> Rule of thumb in CI ops in Jungle, never go and never come back from CI ops in jungle in a vehicle. The moment you do that, you are restricted to road/track and your domination of the area is lost.
> 
> And what happened?
> 
> Similarly, during induction and de-induction, never ever let your guard down.
> 
> These are age old issues which every new comer thinks, after seeing Rambo, he knows inside out.
> 
> A militant/combatant prepared to die for his/her cause, is one to fear. you can only limit your casualties, you cant stop them until and unless you are very lucky.



Every time, every single bloody time that the CRPF gets slaughtered in large numbers in Chhatisgarh, it is because of this lazy, American habit of taking to wheels rather than staying off the road.

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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> I won't push this point as all I have is hearsay although very candid ones but then after retirement service folks look at things with a different PoV.



Inapplicable to me, so you can accept what I say .. albeit hard to swallow it may be.

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## nair

waz said:


> Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? Do you want a military response?



Nothing...... We have seen this happening...... Few tweets...Few shallow statements from political parties..... chest thumping by few retired generals......Television channles can run shows for few days.... Def analysts can write articles for a week..... Trollers can troll in forum like pdf and moderators can work over time to clean up..... 10 days... Things are normal....... Untill the next attack...

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## Joe Shearer

Abingdonboy said:


> Piecemeal at best and wholly insufficient. Are we meant to be satisfied by a unpublicised localised counter attack that leaves the hierarchy and entire terror infrastructure completely untouched safe to carry out a repeat at their whim?



Yes.

If you have a viable alternative to that kind of very precise retaliation, do set it out for discussion. Isolating the responsible and going for them has the invaluable side effect of frightening them about future participation. It also limits the reactions among the PA, and gives them the message that those who have not messed about will not be targeted.

Both are invaluable positions.

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Sad to see that we are not learning from our mistakes..... And one must appreciate the efforts of terror handlers.... These guys are ahead ...... (sad but true)
> 
> What was our intel guys doing???? Why there was no inputs????




Inputs were there. Heck we had inputs for Hyderabad too ...

Problem has taken place in the militants rolling down from an adjacent high ground and remaining undetected. 

Once we had an ingress monitored over LOROS in valley wherein a group of 4 crawled 300 meters in 4 hours in snow to cross the post and the post did not realise. They were so slow that the change of watchers on post did not notice anything amiss.

Something to that effect might have happened.

Also morning mist at times and this time of the year being forested it is quite possible, renders your thermal imagers and your night vision devices useless.

Now someone crawling slowly over two three hours, will remain undetected.

They got lucky in fuel being loaded and unloaded and hence my suspicion of an insider involved ...

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> I won't push this point as all I have is hearsay although very candid ones but then after retirement service folks look at things with a different PoV.



I am afraid that is rather untidy speculation.

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## waz

Spectre said:


> For me personally - I would like to see Jaish and LeT camps taken out in terms of military action. Diplomatically incarceration and deportation of their leaders for trial would be satisfactory.



Ok, fair enough, so who would lead the military action? Would you want the PA do it, and maybe International observers? Or the IA to do it? Which would lead to a full scale counter strike. Their leaders can be arrested, but they won't be deported to India. What of the internal folks in Indian admin Kashmir who take part in these raids?


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## Abingdonboy

waz said:


> Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? Do you want a military response?


It's clear that nothing will happen so my preference would be that the so-called leaders of India refrain from insulting the intelligence of their people and the dignity of their martyrs by making meaningless chest thumping comments.

When the country's image is already a shambles why make it worse?

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## Spectre

waz said:


> Ok, fair enough, so who would lead the military action? Would you want the PA do it, and maybe Indian observers? Or the IA to do it? Which would lead to a full scale counter strike. Their leaders can be arrested, but they won't be deported to India. What of the internal folks in Indian admin Kashmir who take part in these raids?



If PA folks do it then it would go a long way towards building back if not trust then a working Indo-Pak relationship akin to what India and China have. Friction but not naked hostility. 

As for leaders - arrest after a trial would be a bare minimum. House arrest like Masood or arrests of convenience like of Lakhvi where bail is granted as soon as the situation cools off is unlikely to cut ice.

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## Rajaraja Chola

I want revenge. If Modi govt continues to talk, then it is no better than UPA.


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## airmarshal

India's occupation army is a fair and legitimate target in Kashmir. We should all support such attacks as India has been occupying Kashmir against the wishes of Kashmiris. 

There is no sympathy here and there is no need to defend it or apologize. This is war. 

Having said all this, timing is very odd. Clinton was in India and Kashmiri resistance purportedly attacked and killed several Hindus. This time, while there is UN General Assembly session going on, theres is an attack on Indian army and India has gone into overdrive blaming Pakistan. 

The question why would Kashmiris want to tarnish their fair and just movement with stigma of terrorism. Kashmir certainly does not benefit from it. But such attacks do benefit India and helps it deflect pressure.

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## idune

nair said:


> Nothing...... We have seen this happening...... Few tweets...Few shallow statements from political parties..... chest thumping by few retired generals......Television channles can run shows for few days.... Def analysts can write articles for a week..... Trollers can troll in forum like pdf and moderators can work over time to clean up..... 10 days... Things are normal....... Untill the next attack...



That is the price for illegal indian occupation of Kashmir. Anytime a country occupies someone else land they face resistance. US, sole superpower, could not and did not do it in Iraq. Russia could not do that in Afghanistan, US did see occupation is not sustainable and withdrew but looks like indians are not that smart.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

When Indian forces started to beat up people and started to fire weapons , the arrow had already left the bow as they say And now regret will not do much

It is interest of region that India understands the will of Kashmiri people (1947 to Present) these people were living free as "Independent state" the freedom military only distributed pain for last 6-7 decades

Now Indian politicians wish to Engage pakistan with harsh words ? Sir have you even bothered with your own military what they are doing in region

Escalation would no doubt be very negative for region and Indian politicians are 100% responsible for it

What kind of mind set is it that you take a group of people , who are free state , and then make them subjects (due to military force) and then on top of that you have the military and police beat them in their own land ?

"LOSS of life" sad and regrettable but problem should be also addressed


Ask a 6 year kid , I will take your bubble gum, I will give you lolipop but after that I will hit you 20 times really hard in face, and then I will also beat your mom / dad or brother or sister? What would the kids say .. ? *Of course he will say I don't want that !!! *

PAKISTAN is doing its own thing dragging us into mix quite irresponsible, we are deeply concerned about state of Kashmiri people's suffering 


Voice of Kashmirs people has to be heard
The only resolution to issue is let Kashmir's people vote and let us move forward


Kashmir was never ever part of even British Raj these folks were free









Sure an incident happened after 300-400 Kashmiri people died , is there any surprise there ? 

What books states - take a group of free people from Independent state and then beat up their future generation by your military ?

Ye Bohran Wani ? Born kiyon hotain hain ?

Are they eating ice creme and suddenly want freedom ? 

When people have not accepted you from their heart ? Do you think beating them up will change their mind ?

India always chants , it is our "JAGULAR VEIN" but then you are also applying the blade on that Vein!!! and not helping the cause

How is it a JAGULAR vein ? when it is independent state a separate "Kingdom" even.
The guy in Hyderabad also said I want own independent country



Hyderabad [Wanted free Kingdom]---> Military intervention
Kashmir [People want Pakistan]-------> Military intervention 

Goa -> Military intervention 
--------------------------------------------------------------------

China -> War

Pakistan -> War(s)

So at what point will the Indian politicians get it in their heads , other people have freedom to choose and it does not means being with India

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## shah1398

SrNair said:


> Bhai,Do you have any evidence to prove your claims?
> Whenever we told about cross border terrorism,we will have solid evidence to prove that.
> And it seems they are damn sure that this is from across the border.



Bhai plz tell me how on earth U are able to get all evidence even with attack still in progress? If your system is so much efficient then this attack shud have never taken place or atleast the attackers shud have been neutralized before they cud have taken just one step.

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## waz

Spectre said:


> If PA folks do it then it would go a long way towards building back if not trust then a working Indo-Pak relationship akin to what India and China have. Friction but not naked hostility.
> 
> As for leaders - arrest after a trial would be a bare minimum. House arrest like Masood or arrests of convenience like of Lakhvi where bail is granted as soon as the situation cools off is unlikely to cut ice.



Thanks for your post. It makes things clearer.


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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> I am afraid that is rather untidy speculation.



Perhaps you misunderstood my point? I was saying that all I have is after drinks bickering from retired servicemen complaining about shackles put on them by the clueless bureaucrats and politicians.


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## Joe Shearer

waz said:


> Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? Do you want a military response?



I don't know who said 'soft action' and 'cowardice' and so on, but I wish they hadn't. Our military isn't Rambo; it isn't an isolated entity free to do whatever excess of testosterone in the blood dictates. What the IA has done consistently, without talking about it, is to retaliate in a very specific, very sharply focussed manner. 

That is all that ought to be done; more can be done, but that might lead to an unstabilised situation beyond anybody's control. Nobody wants that.

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## waz

Rajaraja Chola said:


> I want revenge. If Modi govt continues to talk, then it is no better than UPA.



What revenge? Covert ops in Pakistan? Overt operation, with all spectrums of the Indian military involved. Sanctions? The closure of transport routes, withdrawal of diplomatic missions?

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> Perhaps you misunderstood my point? I was saying that all I have is after drinks bickering from retired servicemen complaining about shackles put on them by the clueless bureaucrats and politicians.



I do not know of such shackles. Talking costs these retired fire-eaters nothing, especially when you no longer have to account for your talk.

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## Dazzler

nair said:


> Nothing for your ready denials yet.....



Hurry man, we are anxiously waiting for more tissue papers, toilet rolls, soap rappers and toothpaste tubes.

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> I do not know of such shackles. Talking costs these retired fire-eaters nothing, especially when you no longer have to account for your talk.



I agree. As i said - i don't have any first hand experience of inner workings of our defense and security set up. So I tend to take what I hear at face value.


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## Hellfire

waz said:


> Just a little word to our Indian posters, I see posts referring to soft action, cowardice and so on. But what actions would satisfy you? *Do you want a military response?*




That shall be foolish, nay dangerous.

Possible but dangerous.

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## nair

idune said:


> indians are not that smart.



How smart indians are??? who would know better than some one from BD.... (do not quote this post as we may go off topic)

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## waz

@Norge Stronk


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## nair

Dazzler said:


> Hurry man, we are anxiously waiting for more tissue papers, toilet rolls, soap rappers and toothpaste tubes.



Naaa.. We learnt our lessons....

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## idune

waz said:


> What revenge? Covert ops in Pakistan? Overt operation, with all spectrums of the Indian military involved. Sanctions? The closure of transport routes, withdrawal of diplomatic missions?



Why bother with indian chest thumping? Realistically can they direct anything soft or hard ? Doubt that; cost is so prohibitive that its not worth it. Indians can not handle the TRUTH - it s india that occupying Kashmir and indian occupation has its cost.

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## Hellfire

Rajaraja Chola said:


> I want revenge. If Modi govt continues to talk, then it is no better than UPA.




It is, no better. Enjoy the hard facts.

Are you prepared to go to war?

If you are, please go and enlist ..

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## Levina

Spectre said:


> http://www.firstpost.com/india/uri-...-strike-keep-media-jingoists-out-3009714.html
> 
> _As provocations go, this is as big as it can get. The attack on the infantry battalion at Uri in Baramulla district, which claimed lives of 17 soldiers, stands out for its brazenness and in-your-face quality. “*Yes, we have done it. We will do it again, and again. What can you do*?” This, clearly, is the question and statement as well, from the perpetrators to the Indian authorities. Now, it’s for the government to respond. If the response is not adequate and proportionate to the damage caused, then it could end up with egg on its face.
> 
> @scorpionx @hellfire @Joe Shearer @Levina @Abingdonboy _



We will never know.
India is at the verge of being inducted to some elite groups, it won't take the risk of any direct confrontation.
If at all there's a covert op we won't come to know about it for next few years.
I just wish carpet bombing the training camps was a possibility.
Now that JeM has activated its sleeper cells,our soldiers have to be more alert.

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## Rajaraja Chola

waz said:


> What revenge? Covert ops in Pakistan? Overt operation, with all spectrums of the Indian military involved. Sanctions? The closure of transport routes, withdrawal of diplomatic missions?



Bombings of terrorists camps in Occupied Kashmir. In India its very tough even to get a pistol. Automatic rifles are out of equation. The way Pakistan churned out Kargil and lied about its own soldiers have given India and Indians enough reasons not to trust the security apparatus propaganda in your nation. 

Its a simple case of cross border terrorism. The people involved might be Pak nationals or Kashmiris themselves. But weapon and training? If Pakistani forces are *incapable *of stopping terror training camps on their side of control, then India should try to do it. If Bombing of camps is war, then war will we support. 

What Sanctions? Who will sanction us? US might do it for 1 year at best. That's it.


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## nair

Rajaraja Chola said:


> I want revenge. If Modi govt continues to talk, then it is no better than UPA.



I am afraid you will be dissappointed to learn that they is not better than UPA.......(on this matter)

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> What are the alternatives? We effectively dismantled all our intelligence operations by 1997 in neighbouring countries. Vajpayee banned RAW from action against foreign countries.
> 
> What do you expect? A full blown war? I am all for it, just free our hands of no first use policy, because the moment we ingress 15 kms into Punjab, the nukes will come .....
> 
> So, what do you suggest?
> 
> A limited strike in P0K?
> 
> We can do that ... but the political capital we loose? Is it worth it?
> 
> 
> What we can do .. is target raise the costs for Pakistan which is forced to act against these groups on its soil



I think limited strike in PHK is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.

In the long run though it establishes red lines and precedents. I am no fan of aggressive military posturing but then if we don't establish costs then it our lack of action acts like a positive incentive for other sides to keep pushing. However if they meet a brick wall - may be they will stop? Either way we don't know until we try it.

I agree with @Abingdonboy here - any response has to be documented in public domain - unsanctioned ops are unlikely to have the same effect and in absence of Indian ownership can be spun away by the other side to keep up the moral.

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## Hellfire

Joe Shearer said:


> Every time, every single bloody time that the CRPF gets slaughtered in large numbers in Chhatisgarh, it is because of this lazy, American habit of taking to wheels rather than staying off the road.




Unfortunately, it happens. In an ambush a certain driver stops his vehicle ... inspite of being third time getting ambushed .....idiots never learn !!!!!

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## nair

hellfire said:


> They got lucky in fuel being loaded and unloaded and hence my suspicion of an insider involved ...



If there was an insider then it is a big big failure of both the intel..... External and counter......There would have been enough exchanges to raise the alarms........ Most likely these guys must have sneaked in yesterday night and straight got into action.......


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## Rajaraja Chola

hellfire said:


> It is, no better. Enjoy the hard facts.
> 
> Are you prepared to go to war?
> 
> If you are, please go and enlist ..



Do you think the people in Army dont want to? We are a civilian led nation. Not a military led one. 

War might not be a solution, whilst Army might to do changing operations requirement during change of commands. But the terrorists have come with perfect intel. I dont care. Either I want open bombing of occupied Kashmir training apparatus or tit for tat inside Pakistan. I know like most of the soldiers in IA, the soldiers in PA are humans too. Soldiers as well. 

But we cannot allowed to be bled, innocents killed for the military leadership of Pakistan. Pay back in same coin.


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## PARIKRAMA

I refrained from the morning this thread simply bcz of the emotional aspects running wild.


Priority atm should be to give the martyrs a proper send off and also see to it that within next 24 hours their remains reach their family and their hometown for last rites.
In next 24/36 hours a CCS would anyway happen for so called discussing what action needs to be taken.
In an event of this attack any overt ops will be counter productive bcz there will be a simple response to this and the so called rhetoric will be one word only - Nuclear and the whole world will run to call Modi to "please' remain calm and give them (US, China etc) a chance to talk with pakistan
In case if its a covert ops as a response, we will end up straight into the trap saying we also employ proxies in teh same manner like say our neighboring country.
The status of response have to be tehre but it does not need an immediate response. One must be calm like a sniper to wait for the right time to take the shot rather than thinking like a AK47 and using automatic mode to spray the bullets and pray to God a good rate of connect and a descent kill shot. Emotional response will be AK47 type, a proper thought out response can be the sniper head shot
The apparatus can be many for a appropriate response. I am sure @hellfire already knows who are mobilised and already given a call for quick response as and when needed + on the way deployment to the positions as envisioned under the "plan"
Finally one word of caution. Do not force the government into a corner to push them to a corner in order to extract a response which may be hasty and counter productive.
Political will is a big word. if this PM Modi has political will then in a short time period all so called wanted men in other countries can be neutralized. Political will is not a emotional response system rather it has to be a proper thought and planned move bcz once taken you cant back out of it midway like earlier times.

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## nair

Spectre said:


> I think limited strike in P0K is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.
> 
> In the long run though it establishes red lines and precedents. I am no fan of aggressive military posturing but then if we don't establish costs then it our lack of action acts like a positive incentive for other sides to keep pushing. However if they meet a brick wall - may be they will stop? Either way we don't know until we try it.
> 
> I agree with @Abingdonboy here - any response has to be documented in public domain - unsanctioned ops are unlikely to have the same effect and in absence of Indian ownership can be spun away by the other side to keep up the moral.



Can you spell 3 actions which you could suggest.... Let us discuss it further (i do not if i missed few posts of you inbetween)

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## Rajaraja Chola

nair said:


> I am afraid you will be dissappointed to learn that they is not better than UPA.......(on this matter)



I know. My conscience tells me war wont happen and its not good either for Indian Economy. Maybe my anger is asking for an immediate reaction. There is a reason why they are leaders.


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## waz

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Bombings of terrorists camps in Occupied Kashmir. In India its very tough even to get a pistol. Automatic rifles are out of equation. The way Pakistan churned out Kargil and lied about its own soldiers have given India and Indians enough reasons not to trust the security apparatus propaganda in your nation.
> 
> Its a simple case of cross border terrorism. The people involved might be Pak nationals or Kashmiris themselves. But weapon and training? If Pakistani forces are *incapable *of stopping terror training camps on their side of control, then India should try to do it. If Bombing of camps is war, then war will we support.
> 
> What Sanctions? Who will sanction us? US might do it for 1 year at best. That's it.



The world will sanction Pakistan and India, very quickly and for a long time, to prevent the conflict from getting bigger. When two states who armed with nuclear weapons are locked into a fight, that's not a normal situation anywhere. Your post is very naive to say the least. Military strikes, and you support war? Are you going to enlist?

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## Rajaraja Chola

waz said:


> The world will sanction Pakistan and India, very quickly and for a long time, to prevent the conflict from getting bigger. When two states who armed with nuclear weapons are locked into a fight, that's not a normal situation anywhere. Your post is very naive to say the least. Military strikes, and you support war? Are you going to enlist?



Please read my post 680 and 683.

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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> This is dangerous; but let me stall for time by asking you to clarify: which tension? That between Pakistan and India? Or that between separatist Kashmiris and the security forces, the government in Kashmir and the government in Delhi?
> 
> BTW, I prefer to be 'absent', on leave, if you like, although I do keep up with any discussions which are worthwhile. This is specifically in response to you.


Fair enough, So I shall ot insist you further on this topic. 
I understand your reason for being 'Absent'. But Sire always enlighten us with your deep knowledge and in-depth analysis which no troll can ever dream to match


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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> I think limited strike in P0K is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.




It does not work that way. The only sensible and possible action is striking the launch pads of the ingressing elements. They are known and identified.

That they are co-located with PA posts, is a happenstance though not obligatory. The PA troops have nothing to do with these elements for plausible deniability.

This may happen, who knows. It shall effectively send messages to all concerned. Has happened earlier, in 12 Brigade Sector itself, where a fire assault was carried out in 2012.




Irfan Baloch said:


> In the long run though it establishes red lines and precedents. I am no fan of aggressive military posturing but then if we don't establish costs then it our lack of action acts like a positive incentive for other sides to keep pushing. However if they meet a brick wall - may be they will stop? Either way we don't know until we try it.



Any conflict resolution requires Political dialogue. When you do something openly, it leaves very little space for that. You don't resolve a conflict, merely perpetuate it. Do not mistake conflict management and resolution.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree with @Abingdonboy here - any response has to be documented in public domain - unsanctioned ops are unlikely to have the same effect and in absence of Indian ownership can be spun away by the other side to keep up the moral.



The aim is to send a message. That will be sent. Be rest assured.

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## nair

Rajaraja Chola said:


> I know. My conscience tells me war wont happen and its not good either for Indian Economy. Maybe my anger is asking for an immediate reaction. There is a reason why they are leaders.



There is a difference between us (including those politicians and parties out of power) and a government...... They do not work to satisfy our egos..... They work to keep us safe, or make the damage as low as possible...... Modi govt is not different..... only thing that He has been portrayed by his 56 inch "chathi" by his supporters..... Otherwise he is a PM lust like any other guy in office.....

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## Dazzler

nair said:


> Nothing for your ready denials yet.....



Hurry man, we are anxiously waiting for more tissue papers, toilet rolls, soap rappers and toothpaste tubes.


nair said:


> Naaa.. We learnt our lessons....



So any idea as to what type of dossier we should expect this time around?

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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> It does not work that way. The only sensible and possible action is striking the launch pads of the ingressing elements. They are known and identified.
> 
> That they are co-located with PA posts, is a happenstance though not obligatory. The PA troops have nothing to do with these elements for plausible deniability.
> 
> This may happen, who knows. It shall effectively send messages to all concerned. Has happened earlier, in 12 Brigade Sector itself, where a fire assault was carried out in 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any conflict resolution requires Political dialogue. When you do something openly, it leaves very little space for that. You don't resolve a conflict, merely perpetuate it. Do not mistake conflict management and resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> The aim is to send a message. That will be sent. Be rest assured.


yar lala G.. Modi considers Nawaz Sherif as his asset
and Nawa Sherif is sheltering the guys in Muredkay and south Punjab as his political muscle .. he wont allow rnagers operation against them in Punjab.. I dont know how this will work


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## Hellfire

nair said:


> If there was an insider then it is a big big failure of both the intel..... External and counter......There would have been enough exchanges to raise the alarms........ Most likely these guys must have sneaked in yesterday night and straight got into action.......




Insider - Kashmiri porter/defence civilian employee, truck driver, owner, relative ... that is what I mean by civil.

One anecdotal incident. A pakistani SSG guy posing as a porter penetrated one RR unit. Easily copied data from office computers and while leaving left a note laughing at Indians ...

happens. It is not unknown. A porter took 7 heads in 2007 of Indian Soldiers, drugged the soldiers on an isolated post by drugging food and took the heads. The rate was Rs 5 lac for Officer, 2 lac for soldier and further down.


No ... they might have crawled all night long ... it is fun to crawl along and no one notices as you are crawling so slow.

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## nair

Dazzler said:


> So any idea as to what type of dossier we should expect this time around?



Way better than that spiral binded book which was waved infront of media......Got it.... By the way no point in taking it further, as i am bit week in trolling... Let us stop it here and talk any thing productive (if any)

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## Spectre

nair said:


> Can you spell 3 actions which you could suggest.... Let us discuss it further (i do not if i missed few posts of you inbetween)



I can only speak in generalized terms as a civilian @Joe Shearer or @hellfire perhaps can provide better targets of opportunity.

1. I am sure we have real time surveillance over at least some of the terror infrastructure in P0K, if not then RAW should be taken to task. If these camps are nearby and fixed then an army/para commando raid on these camps presents the first target.

2. If they have shifted back to not so easily reached locations after conducting these attacks then a missile strike (provided we have hard actionable intelligence and are assured of minimum civilian casualties) should be conducted.

These would ofcourse be symbolic as these camps are likely to sprout back again but symbolism plays a large part in perception management. It also creates disincentives and doubts within the enemy factions, lowers their morals and increases ours.

3. Not in this case but in case of repeat of Mumbai like terror strike leading to substantial civilian casualties - combined ops with air strikes, special forces deployments and naval action should take place. WAR in a such a scenario cannot be avoided.

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## Hellfire

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Do you think the people in Army dont want to? We are a civilian led nation. Not a military led one.



No. Army does not want to. It is primarily a political issue. Have the politicians worked to settle Kashmir till date? let us not get into what army wants or not.



Rajaraja Chola said:


> War might not be a solution, whilst Army might to do changing operations requirement during change of commands. But the terrorists have come with perfect intel. I dont care. Either I want open bombing of occupied Kashmir training apparatus or tit for tat inside Pakistan. I know like most of the soldiers in IA, the soldiers in PA are humans too. Soldiers as well.
> 
> But we cannot allowed to be bled, innocents killed for the military leadership of Pakistan. Pay back in same coin.




We have been bleeding ....


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## Irfan Baloch

waz said:


> What revenge? Covert ops in Pakistan? Overt operation, with all spectrums of the Indian military involved. Sanctions? The closure of transport routes, withdrawal of diplomatic missions?


wait Ghani wants indian trade access via Afghan transit route
how that will work

as for teaching us the lesson. what was that Monkey Yadev doing it Balochsitan? teaching prehistoric vegetarian dishes to BLA ? we can expect firing at LoC and working boundary for sure and we will retaliate too

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## Rajaraja Chola

nair said:


> There is a difference between us (including those politicians and parties out of power) and a government...... They do not work to satisfy our egos..... They work to keep us safe, or make the damage as low as possible...... Modi govt is not different..... only thing that He has been portrayed by his 56 inch "chathi" by his supporters..... Otherwise he is a PM lust like any other guy in office.....



The way Pakistani members celebrate makes me boil. I know the ground realities will be much different than our egos and expectations. That's why I told before There is a reason they are leaders, and its their responsibility to look well into a future while taking decision which i wholeheartedly accept irrespective whether they are UPA or NDA.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> nsider - Kashmiri porter/defence civilian employee, truck driver, owner, relative ... that is what I mean by civil.



I was not hinting at defence guys.... What i meant with that was the communication.....If there was an inside help, there would have been enough communication between this guy and the handlers..... That should have triggered the guys if they had any clue.....


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## Irfan Baloch

Spectre said:


> I can only speak in generalized terms as a civilian @Joe Shearer or @hellfire perhaps can provide better targets of opportunity.
> 
> 1. I am sure we have real time surveillance over at least some of the terror infrastructure in P0K, if not then RAW should be taken to task. If these camps are nearby and fixed then an army/para commando raid on these camps presents the first target.
> .



I dont think there are any camps inside Pakistani Kashmir. and by the way Muridkay is not in Kashmir but in Punjab that is ruled by an India friendly sherif family

goo figure

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## DESERT FIGHTER

trident2010 said:


> Whole Kashmir is Atoot Aang of India, we will have pakistan occupied kashmir sooner than later. India has no interest in merging independent countries like Baluchistan, Sindh, pakhtoon etc. in India. We will have good relations with them like we have with former east pakistan aka Bangladesh



Aroof aang lol.

They've been showing you middle finger since decades.


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## Irfan Baloch

Mrc said:


> So whats the end result?? Is india launching strikes on pakistani side or not??
> I hope u guyz dont make it another tejas....

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> I think limited strike in P0K is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.
> 
> In the long run though it establishes red lines and precedents. I am no fan of aggressive military posturing but then if we don't establish costs then it our lack of action acts like a positive incentive for other sides to keep pushing. However if they meet a brick wall - may be they will stop? Either way we don't know until we try it.
> 
> I agree with @Abingdonboy here - any response has to be documented in public domain - unsanctioned ops are unlikely to have the same effect and in absence of Indian ownership can be spun away by the other side to keep up the moral.




Please think for a moment what you are asking for. 

You are asking the Indian Army to say in public that it has violated an international boundary and committed acts of violence, perhaps including murder, when there has been no such action by the Pakistan Army itself - by agents and proxies, perhaps, but not by the Army direct. Even in cases of ambushes of IA soldiers on our own side of the LOC, there is seldom, if ever, overt evidence that it was action by the other side's Army. 

And all this to raise morale? Whose morale? The morale of those who made the terrible mistake of imagining that the posturing and bragging of some desperate for power politicians for the real thing? Or is it Arnab Goswami's morale? Perhaps that of G. D. Bakshi? As far as the IA is concerned, the morale of IA soldiers will recover in remarkably quick time.

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## Irfan Baloch

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Aroof aang lol.
> 
> They've been showing you middle finger since decades.

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## nair

Rajaraja Chola said:


> The way Pakistani members celebrate makes me boil. I know the ground realities will be much different than our egos and expectations. That's why I told before There is a reason they are leaders, and its their responsibility to look well into a future while taking decision which i wholeheartedly accept irrespective whether they are UPA or NDA.



Well it doesnt matter.... there are 2 aspects to it..... 1) They assume that IA as occupaitonal forces and they think that it is fine to be killed 2) there are others who supports terrorism against India and feel happy about any attack.... Should not worry you....... There are indians who also does the same (you may not find them in this forum )

Well what makes you think that the leaders are not taking action?? Read the posts of @Joe Shearer @hellfire how these thing are treated....... You know @Spectre has mentioned how the local commanders are upset because of micro management from Delhi.... These issues are handled at local level and will be dealt strongly.... .We may not come to know about it.... But those who are responsible will surely get the message loud and clear....

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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> yar lala G.. Modi considers Nawaz Sherif as his asset
> and Nawa Sherif is sheltering the guys in Muredkay and south Punjab as his political muscle .. he wont allow rnagers operation against them in Punjab.. I dont know how this will work



Nawaz is not the asset for Modi. Nawaz is asset for Nawaz and he is right now trying to save his hide from being skinned and pinned in GHQ's officer's mess ante room.

It is even a US move and even Indian move to separate the PA from GoP in all dealings. Until and unless the democracy in Pakistan is strengthened, there is very less likelihood of peace between the two nations. I have no doubts about that.

The military has had far too prominent role in politics in Pakistan ... their raison d'etre goes if they allow civil domination of the political scenario to reach a peace with India, it is a brutal fact.

What stops PA from strengthening the democratic institutions and separating itself from the role of governance if it was genuinely keen on separating itself?

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## Arsalan

it was a sad incident, human lives were lost. However if this post attack efficiency of Indian intelligence that have uncovered Pakistan's hand behinde in 24 hours or less have been present before the attack, this could have been prevented. Or perhaps it is easier to balme it in someone else rather than admitting to the actual reasons and understanding the situation.

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## Irfan Baloch

Areesh said:


> Acha to hai laikin kuttai ki maut marwaye ga


India will do what it has done in the recent past.. which is terror attacks on schools and mosques and on poor labourors and shopkeepers 

time to catch more monkeys like Yadev before they hit us.

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## Areesh

trident2010 said:


> Well with the size, economy and military of pakistan is fraction that of India and the differential is increasing in India's favour, we all know only one who got any delusions are pakistanis.
> 
> Believe me you will much more accepted in the world when having passport of Baluchistan or Sindh rather than having passport of west punjab aka pakistan. Currently all the security agencies go on alert as soon as they spot green pakistani passport. Sad state of affairs for west punjab.



Delusions and more delusions.

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> Please think for a moment what you are asking for.
> 
> You are asking the Indian Army to say in public that it has violated an international boundary and committed acts of violence, perhaps including murder, when there has been no such action by the Pakistan Army itself - by agents and proxies, perhaps, but not by the Army direct. Even in cases of ambushes of IA soldiers on our own side of the LOC, there is seldom, if ever, overt evidence that it was action by the other side's Army.
> 
> And all this to raise morale? Whose morale? The morale of those who made the terrible mistake of imagining that the posturing and bragging of some desperate for power politicians for the real thing? Or is it Arnab Goswami's morale? Perhaps that of G. D. Bakshi? As far as the IA is concerned, the morale of IA soldiers will recover in remarkably quick time.



Do we need to justify ourselves? If so to whom? International community which doesn't give two hoots about the constant infiltration and attacks we suffer? It is only after 9/11 we get some sympathy but no concrete action from global community. Have there been any sanctions put on Pakistan after Mumbai attacks which is a well documented case of Pakistani sponsorship of terror - No! Instead within a few years they were awarded with more military hardware as aid.

To me it is more the matter of intelligence I am not privy too - Either these latest attacks (Pathankot and Uri) are state sponsored or they are not and non state actors slip by through holes in security net on both sides.

In case of first, action is justified and in case of 2nd political dialogue is only option.

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## Joe Shearer

Why did you present that interview? (The interviewer was Maroof Raza, a hawk, btw). Musharraf said a lot of incriminatory things in that. It kind of weakens the Pakistani case. Or perhaps you don't agree? I'm puzzled; I'd have kept this interview as discreetly tucked away out of sight as possible.

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> I was not hinting at defence guys.... What i meant with that was the communication.....If there was an inside help, there would have been enough communication between this guy and the handlers..... That should have triggered the guys if they had any clue.....




Not likely. Civil areas are in near proximity. You have watchers outside the main gate itself passing off int to others. It is actually a game of cat and mouse.

If you need to win it militarily, you need to shoot at smallest suspicion, something that is not possible if you want to keep Kashmir as part of India.

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## Areesh

Irfan Baloch said:


> India will do what it has done in the recent past.. which is terror attacks on schools and mosques and on poor labourors and shopkeepers
> 
> time to catch more monkeys like Yadev before they hit us.



I have been saying the same since morning. India has very limited options against Pakistan. And the best one among them is TTP or to some extent BLA. I won't be surprised if New Delhi would be in communication with Kabul for future TTP attack.

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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Nawaz is not the asset for Modi. Nawaz is asset for Nawaz and he is right now trying to save his hide from being skinned and pinned in GHQ's officer's mess ante room.
> 
> It is even a US move and even Indian move to separate the PA from GoP in all dealings. Until and unless the democracy in Pakistan is strengthened, there is very less likelihood of peace between the two nations. I have no doubts about that.
> 
> The military has had far too prominent role in politics in Pakistan ... their raison d'etre goes if they allow civil domination of the political scenario to reach a peace with India, it is a brutal fact.
> 
> What stops PA from strengthening the democratic institutions and separating itself from the role of governance if it was genuinely keen on separating itself?


you are in a way correct. Nawaz has sold his soul to the devil and its all self interest but India has never made a secret of supporting Nawaz. remember Imran khan and Zardari are also civilians and democratic leaders

there is no such love there. I know we need to learn democracy much but look at us... its a sham a dynasty politics where sons and daughters are prepped to rule us. this self interest is not helping at all and what is not helping is the beating of war drums and world conquest mentality int he "democratic" India.

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## nair

Spectre said:


> 1. I am sure we have real time surveillance over at least some of the terror infrastructure in P0K, if not then RAW should be taken to task. If these camps are nearby and fixed then an army/para commando raid on these camps presents the first target



I do not believe that RAW (we all know who works in these organisations) has that much capability to pinpoint Terror camp to the level of a surgical strike...... So you have no gurantee that you are going to strike at a terror camp or some other camp..... So a Big no...



Spectre said:


> 2. If they have shifted back to not so easily reached locations after conducting these attacks then a missile strike (provided we have hard actionable intelligence and are assured of minimum civilian casualties) should be conducted



This is much worse than the first option..... Even if you killed hafees Saeed, it will be portrayed as an innocent guy who work 12 hours to earn his bread was killed in missile strike.... How would you counter that??? This was the exact reason why US did not use a missile to kill Osama....What if that missile miss the target???



Spectre said:


> 3. Not in this case but in case of repeat of Mumbai like terror strike leading to substantial civilian casualties - combined ops with air strikes, special forces deployments and naval action should take place. WAR in a such a scenario cannot be avoided



Here you are looking at full fledged war....... If that is what GoI is looking at then all the other options can be tried.... because any way we are planning a war.....


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## Spectre

nair said:


> Here you are looking at full fledged war....... If that is what GoI is looking at then all the other options can be tried.... because any way we are planning a war.....



Only in case of provable beyond any question Pakistan sponsored terror strike on our civilians.


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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> Do we need to justify ourselves? If so to whom? International community which doesn't give a two hoots about the constant infiltration and attacks we suffer?



AFAIK, nobody does this sort of thing without war breaking out. Do you want a war between two nuclear states?



> To me it is more the matter of intelligence I am not privy too - Either these attacks are state sponsored or they are not and non state actors slip by through wholes in security net on both sides.



That is the whole point, isn't it? Why should you and I sit and decide what will satisfy US about the situation, and why on earth should we two of us imagine that the entire IA needs to have its task defined for itself, and to be briefed about what concerned Indian civilians would like, as guarantees that the national security is indeed in good hands? 

Please take a look at the consequences of excessive Indian public opinion-forming and opinion-sharing at the time that the Nehru government was engaged in a tense discussion with the Chinese. That pressure of public opinion forced Nehru and the External Affairs Ministry into a corner. Now we are told we need to do that all over again, and that public opinion has once again to be appeased. 

Remind me who said,"History repeats itself; the first time it is a tragedy, the second time a farce." 



> In case of first, action is justified and in case of 2nd political dialogue is only option.



Please don't write with such sweeping brush-strokes. WHO will prove whether or not there was state sponsorship? How much can be discovered of the relationship of the deep state, especially of their most secretive and clandestine part, with the perpetrators of cross-border crimes? These are easy to say in Internet posts, and almost impossible in the real world.

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## nair

Spectre said:


> Only in case of provable beyond any question Pakistan sponsored terror strike on our civilians.



Do you think that this was not looked in to??? Especially after parliament attack and 26/11???.... I think GoI learnt better options which may not be available in public domain.... may be some of us knows a bit of it even may not like to discuss it......


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## Irfan Baloch

Areesh said:


> I have been saying the same since morning. India has very limited options against Pakistan. And the best one among them is TTP or to some extent BLA. I won't be surprised if New Delhi would be in communication with Kabul for future TTP attack.


you got it

I think the attack will come from Kabul side. they will start firing on villagers from the boundary and LoC as well. I pray for the safety of the poor people who might be ambushed and killed on accusation of crossing the border. the people in dehli have no shame and its their policy statement to give us befitting reply 


+

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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> you are in a way correct. Nawaz has sold his soul to the devil and its all self interest but India has never made a secret of supporting Nawaz. remember Imran khan and Zardari are also civilians and democratic leaders



Allow me to specifically answer here. Who do we deal with? We have to deal with who is in power today. Unfortunately/fortunately it is NS. That is the hard fact. Inspite of all the deaths today, I do not see any reason to disengage politically. There are common challenges on the horizon. It serves us to have a strong PA working against these elements. That is what I have always been saying on this forum. What happens in these incidents wherein the GPS coordinates have given us the origin point of the ingress, is that incremental costs below threshold will be imposed. That will happen.



Irfan Baloch said:


> there is no such love there. I know we need to learn democracy much but look at us... its a sham a dynasty politics where sons and daughters are prepped to rule us. this self interest is not helping at all and what is not helping is the beating of war drums and world conquest mentality int he "democratic" India.



We suffer from it too. Rahul Gandhi the unique is there for all to see. Plus the Yadavs et al. But still we are trying. That is why .. Indian policy is to maintain a political relationship. There are far too many vested interests at work in this scenario.

I had raised my query as to why Burhan Wani had to be killed now, when things were on upswing with Modi and NS engaging with each other?
We had that guy under observation 24x7 for six years!

@Joe Shearer You remember my asking this question and speculating about the need and timing?


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## idune

Spectre said:


> Do we need to justify ourselves? If so to whom? International community which doesn't give two hoots about the *constant infiltration* and *attacks* we suffer? .



*CORRECTION:* india is occupying Kashmir, Kashmiri people moving inside Kashmir is NOT infiltration its their birth right. 
And it is india which is committing genocide in Kashmir, and Kashmiri people are attacked by almost 1 million of indian army and security force. So indians should stop acting as victim.

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## nair

Irfan Baloch said:


> the people in dehli have no shame and its their policy statement to give us befitting reply



True.... Such statements where thrown by politicians after those 190 odd innocent guys lost their life in mumbai......

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## Hellfire

salarsikander said:


> Fair enough, So I shall ot insist you further on this topic.
> I understand your reason for being 'Absent'. *But Sire always enlighten us with your deep knowledge and in-depth analysis which no troll can ever dream to match*



Unfortunately, there are far too many trolls. And I see you also getting buggered out with them nowadays.....


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## Joe Shearer

hellfire said:


> Allow me to specifically answer here. Who do we deal with? We have to deal with who is in power today. Unfortunately/fortunately it is NS. That is the hard fact. Inspite of all the deaths today, I do not see any reason to disengage politically. There are common challenges on the horizon. It serves us to have a strong PA working against these elements. That is what I have always been saying on this forum. What happens in these incidents wherein the GPS coordinates have given us the origin point of the ingress, is that incremental costs below threshold will be imposed. That will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> We suffer from it too. Rahul Gandhi the unique is there for all to see. Plus the Yadavs et al. But still we are trying. That is why .. Indian policy is to maintain a political relationship. There are far too many vested interests at work in this scenario.
> 
> I had raised my query as to why Burhan Wani had to be killed now, when things were on upswing with Modi and NS engaging with each other?
> We had that guy under observation 24x7 for six years!
> 
> @Joe Shearer You remember my asking this question and speculating about the need and timing?



Absolutely. About the timing and the handling of the news. You did do that, right at that time, and in hindsight, it was so appropriate a question.



salarsikander said:


> Fair enough, So I shall ot insist you further on this topic.
> I understand your reason for being 'Absent'. But Sire always enlighten us with your deep knowledge and in-depth analysis which no troll can ever dream to match



I will happily respond to serious questions by serious questioners. 

This thread horrified me, which is why I felt it needed to make an exception to my rule to stay away.

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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> I will happily respond to serious questions by serious questioners.


I hope I am included in that list, am I ?


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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> you got it
> 
> I think the attack will come from Kabul side. they will start firing on villagers from the boundary and LoC as well. I pray for the safety of the poor people who might be ambushed and killed on accusation of crossing the border. the people in dehli have no shame and its their policy statement to give us befitting reply
> 
> 
> +




Alternate can be a limited Parakaram 2 .... forces you to move your troops east to realign .. renders your CI ops in West back by a few months to weeks due to the 'vacuum' of withdrawing forces .....

A prolonged deployment will be troublesome with incremental pressure on western provinces.

makes sense?


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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> AFAIK, nobody does this sort of thing without war breaking out. Do you want a war between two nuclear states?
> 
> 
> 
> That is the whole point, isn't it? Why should you and I sit and decide what will satisfy US about the situation, and why on earth should we two of us imagine that the entire IA needs to have its task defined for itself, and to be briefed about what concerned Indian civilians would like, as guarantees that the national security is indeed in good hands?
> 
> Please take a look at the consequences of excessive Indian public opinion-forming and opinion-sharing at the time that the Nehru government was engaged in a tense discussion with the Chinese. That pressure of public opinion forced Nehru and the External Affairs Ministry into a corner. Now we are told we need to do that all over again, and that public opinion has once again to be appeased.
> 
> Remind me who said,"History repeats itself; the first time it is a tragedy, the second time a farce."
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't write with such sweeping brush-strokes. WHO will prove whether or not there was state sponsorship? How much can be discovered of the relationship of the deep state, especially of their most secretive and clandestine part, with the perpetrators of cross-border crimes? These are easy to say in Internet posts, and almost impossible in the real world.



@nair This is in broad response to you too..

Most of us are civilians - We have a hard enough life - work hard, earn a living for our family and trust in Govt and by extension Govt controlled army to protect us from those who seek to harm us or destroy our way of life and freedom.

I personally have witnessed maoist violence in Jharkhand and was in Ahmedabad and Mumbai when terror attacks took place. Such attacks fills us with sense of inadequacy and impotency . Moresover if we happen to loose a beloved one in such circumstances.

These are not acts of God! If there was a murder we expect the murderer to be punished and so is the case in these terror strikes - we expect perps to be bought to heel. BUT instead we see - no consequences being bought upon the offending parties.

@nair and @hellfire you guys say - punishment happens outside the public eye - What good is such an action to us those who have suffered from such terror. We get no closure and that rage continues to build up.

Now @Joe Shearer - there is a lot of merit in what you are saying. Intellectually I agree with most of your points - but it doesn't satisfy that victim in me and others which demands revenge. We have been told by our Governments and our Military - *That it is Pakistan which is to blame for terror attacks, for our suffering*, told in unambiguous words without any qualifications. In our Mind Pakistan has already been judged and pronounced guilty - so when we see no punishment being meted out due to reasons you have stated - we feel hollow.

The one point where I disagree with you intellectually is this - Role of Civilians in defining the task for our military. Civilians and public opinion for good or bad have complete authority to define the role - Isn't this how things work in democracy? We elect our leaders to follow our wishes and these leaders direct the military to execute our wishes. Now Military has freedom to choose the tactics, timings and plans but the overarching goal is defined by us..

Regards

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## Hellfire

Arsalan said:


> it was a sad incident, human lives were lost. However if this post attack efficiency of Indian intelligence that have uncovered Pakistan's hand behinde in 24 hours or less have been present before the attack, this could have been prevented. Or perhaps it is easier to balme it in someone else rather than admitting to the actual reasons and understanding the situation.




GPS grids point to origin in Pakistan-held-Kashmir. Confirmed.



Spectre said:


> @hellfire you guys say - punishment happens outside the public eye - What good is such an action to us those who have suffered from such terror. We get no closure and that rage continues to build up.




Conflict management versus conflict resolution .......

for latter, you need political relationships! Please understand that. You can not perpetuate hostilities till infinite time period.

Most importantly, 17 is a figure hardly a drop for us in terms of casualty. Let me be brutally honest


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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Alternate can be a limited Parakaram 2 .... forces you to move your troops east to realign .. renders your CI ops in West back by a few months to weeks due to the 'vacuum' of withdrawing forces .....
> 
> A prolonged deployment will be troublesome with incremental pressure on western provinces.
> 
> makes sense?


ya seen it in 2008 when we launched operations in South Waziristan and Muhmand Agency.. India mobilised forces all along the working boundary . in response we also moved our forces to the east

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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> ya seen it in 2008 when we launched operations in South Waziristan and Muhmand Agency.. India mobilised forces all along the working boundary . in response we also moved our forces to the east



That is what can happen at most.

Anyways .. its a wait and watch. Hopefully sanity prevails and things are not allowed to go off grid. 

Cheers


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## Irfan Baloch

nair said:


> True.... Such statements where thrown by politicians after those 190 odd innocent guys lost their life in mumbai......


no sir I am talking about the current Interior minister and NSA ...not the Mumbai time.

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## notorious_eagle

hellfire said:


> *GPS grids point *to origin in P0K. Confirmed.



Sir

Source for the GPS Coordinates?



Spectre said:


> This is a fallacy. We are fine with status quo, we are not making advances on P0K,* we are not sending RSS goons to Balochistan and FATA to blow themselves up*. In short we are not initiating and perpetuating hostilities.
> 
> One way to end conflicts is to surrender which is essentially what we would be doing if we are resigned to these attacks without a public response.



Not RSS, but certainly arms and weapons to elements in Balochistan and FATA that want seperation from Pakistan. And i know, this is where we agree to disagree.

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## nair

Spectre said:


> Most of us are civilians - We have a hard enough life - work hard, earn a living for our family and trust in Govt and by extension Govt controlled army to protect us from those who seek to harm us or destroy our way of life and freedom.



It is very natural to feel in that way... Infact if some one doesnt feel that way then there is something wrong with him or he is not a civilian (in our standards) 


Spectre said:


> I personally have witnessed maoist violence in Jharkhand and was in Ahmedabad and Mumbai when terror attacks took place. Such attacks fills us with sense of inadequacy and impotency . Moresover if we happen to loose a beloved one in such circumstances.



Absolutely....... 



Spectre said:


> These are not acts of God! If there was a murder we expect the murderer to be punished and so is the case in these terror strikes - we expect perps to be bought to heel. BUT instead we see - no consequences being bought upon the offending parties.



Well pros and cons have to be analysed..... and i guess we should trust the govt on this...... No point in putting more pressure on them to take a call which they would not have taken normally....... 



Spectre said:


> @nair and @hellfire you guys say - punishment happens outside the public eye - What good is such an action to us those who have suffered from such terror. We get no closure and that rage continues to build up



These punishment was not for those who has suffered..... Those punishment are for those who has committed this....


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## Hellfire

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> Source for the GPS Coordinates?



Hi. Long time indeed.

GPS as recovered from the militants with pre-programmed Grid Reference and marked maps and the matrices thereof.

But that is besides the point. I am more concerned over own failure and the propensity to blame Pakistan ...

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## coffee_cup

Levina said:


> If at all there's a covert op we won't come to know about it for next few years.
> I just wish carpet bombing the training camps was a possibility.



We wish, we could do something similar to those Indian "cultural centres" inside Afghanistan. 

I have been saying it for the last many years, Indians policy of sponsoring terrorism on one hand and playing the victim card at the same time is not going to fool everyone all the time. At some time, it is bound to backfire massively...

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## nair

Irfan Baloch said:


> no sir I am talking about the current Interior minister and NSA ...not the Mumbai time.



I think you are reffering to the speech made by current NSA....... Well That was made when he was a retired officer enjoying his retired life....... He might have not had any clue of his appointment as NSA when he made that speech.....We have our retired generals who goes for such speeches and we know what they do .....Interior minister.... Well he is a politician.....



hellfire said:


> But that is besides the point. I am more concerned over own failure and the propensity to blame Pakistan ...



This is how it should be looked at......

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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> This is a fallacy. We are fine with status quo, we are not making advances on P0K, we are not sending RSS goons to Balochistan and FATA to blow themselves up. In short we are not initiating and perpetuating hostilities.



Your post is tangential. Conflict resolution process was initiated with Modi-NS meet, derailed by Burhan Wani incident. I had raised a red flag then itself, why kill him now?

We are managing hostilities thereby perpetuating it. Military option is management, resolution is political. Please differentiate the two. You are looking at things in a narrow spectrum.



Spectre said:


> TOne way to end conflicts is to surrender which is essentially what we would be doing if we are resigned to these attacks without a public response.



Incorrect.
One way to surrender is to resort to military action.

This is a conflict of 'hybrid' nature of warfare.

I think @Joe Shearer and @Irfan Baloch will subscribe to this view of nature of warfare today as existing between the nations

You have the political, economic, diplomatic, military, information warfare and the non-state aspects of it. All need to be calibrated and coordinated to achieve your objectives. It starts with political and ends with political initiatives. Rest all are merely tools.

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## Levina

coffee_cup said:


> We wish, we could do something similar to those Indian "cultural centres" inside Afghanistan.
> 
> I have been saying it for the last many years, Indians policy of sponsoring terrorism on one hand and playing the victim card at the same time is not going to fool everyone all the time. At some time, it is bound to backfire massively...



Look who is talking! Lol
Pakistan has more at stake if it were to loose its control over Afghanistan than india. So no wonder your guys want to keep India out of the loop. Trust me even spreading these rumours about "cultural centres" aren't helping.
Nobody has ever pointed a finger at India for any terrorist explosion abroad.
Your case is weak.

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## Abingdonboy

waz said:


> What revenge? Covert ops in Pakistan? Overt operation, with all spectrums of the Indian military involved. Sanctions? The closure of transport routes, withdrawal of diplomatic missions?


At the very very least acknowledge what has happened, who were behind it and call a spade a spade. You see opposition MPs or induvidual ministers stating XYZ (mostly because they feel they are obligated to make such noises ) but the official stance of the GoI is almost resignation and noncommittal. 

Treat an enemy like an enemy instead of all of these wishy washy comments and contradictory actions.


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## Bratva

Spectre said:


> Indian Army has attributed these attacks to Jaish which is expressly being protected and given sanctuary by Pakistan. I need no more proof.
> 
> As for the other part show me a single post of mine where I have called for killing of innocents. One need not resort to lies to make an argument.



Need I remind your attitude in Kalbhushan yadav threads or in those threads where Pakistan Army accuses India of formenting terrorism in Pakistan and accuses them of killing its citizens and and soldiers ?

What is the proof that that these attacks were done by Jaish ? You and your jingoistic army has nothing better to do but just to kill Unarmed kids and adults and blame Paksitan every now and then



Levina said:


> Look who is talking! Lol
> Pakistan has more at stake if it were to loose its control over Afghanistan than india. So no wonder your guys want to keep India out of the loop. Trust me even spreading these rumours about "cultural centres" aren't helping.
> Nobody has ever pointed a finger at India for any terrorist explosion abroad.
> Your case is weak.



Need I remind you the knee jerk reactions of India when Pakistan or China make overtures towards srilanka or nepal ? Holier than thou attitude doesnot suit indians when it comes to afghanistan

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## cerberus

Mostly Non Combatant are Killed Mostly Logistics SAD

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> Your post is tangential. Conflict resolution process was initiated with Modi-NS meet, derailed by Burhan Wani incident. I had raised a red flag then itself, why kill him now?
> 
> We are managing hostilities thereby perpetuating it. Military option is management, resolution is political. Please differentiate the two. You are looking at things in a narrow spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.
> One way to surrender is to resort to military action.
> 
> This is a conflict of 'hybrid' nature of warfare.
> 
> I think @Joe Shearer and @Irfan Baloch will subscribe to this view of nature of warfare today as existing between the nations
> 
> You have the political, economic, diplomatic, military, information warfare and the non-state aspects of it. All need to be calibrated and coordinated to achieve your objectives. It starts with political and ends with political initiatives. Rest all are merely tools.



I am sorry but perhaps you can re-examine the sequence of events

Modi-NS meet. What happens Pathankot

Doval - and their NSA meet. Joint investigation is agreed to. In unprecedented step and an act of trust Pakistani personnel are allowed to visit Pathankot. Agreement was for reciprocal visit by Indian agency to Pakistan. 

What happens? Their investigations go back to Pakistan and unilaterally declare - No evidence was found and Indians will not be allowed to visit Pakistan. 

Burhan Wani came much later. 

I am not the only party of guilty of narrow spectrum view point. 

As for your other point. After a point all politics become appeasement. Chamberlain was guilty of the same thing? He believed in a political resolutions with Nazi Germany. Gave concessions after concessions and we ended up with Nazis getting stronger and stronger and in the end bough entire world to brink of destruction. 

Pakistan now is weak, it seeks time to regroup. As @Joe Shearer said History often repeats itself - First time is a tragedy, 2nd time a farce. We have seen time and again that as soon as Pakistan consolidates and sees a weakness in us, it attacks us either directly or through proxies.

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## Bratva

hellfire said:


> GPS grids point to origin in P0K. Confirmed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conflict management versus conflict resolution .......
> 
> for latter, you need political relationships! Please understand that. You can not perpetuate hostilities till infinite time period.
> 
> Most importantly, 17 is a figure hardly a drop for us in terms of casualty. Let me be brutally honest



Do I need to remind you how many terror attacks in balochistan were traced back to Indian officials facilitating them? But What was the response of you and your ilk? You laughed at those unsubstantiated evidences presented by Pakistan. So indulge me, what is the worth of your evidences when

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## pakdefender

hellfire said:


> GPS grids point to origin in P0K. Confirmed.



How exactly ? , provide details

A GPS gives coordinates and not a grid. It gives coordinates of current position and not past positions , unless the GPS device is turned on at the previous position and has logging capability , which I doubt that people doing such like acts will do.

Go ahead now and provide the details , let's see you make a fool out of yourself


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## salarsikander

Abingdonboy said:


> At the very very least acknowledge what has happened, who were behind it and call a spade a spade. You see opposition MPs or induvidual ministers stating XYZ (mostly because they feel they are obligated to make such noises ) but the official stance of the GoI is almost resignation and noncommittal.
> 
> Treat an enemy like an enemy instead of all of these wishy washy comments and contradictory actions.


Or Perhaps the GOI knows the blame is unwarranted for and the result of their own ill-conceived policies for this volatile region and hence the this finger pointing is just for public consumption and nothing more


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## coffee_cup

Levina said:


> Look who is talking! Lol
> Pakistan has more at stake if it were to loose its control over Afghanistan than india. So no wonder your guys want to keep India out of the loop. Trust me even spreading these rumours about "cultural centres" aren't helping.
> Nobody has ever pointed a finger at India for any terrorist explosion abroad.
> Your case is weak.



These hollow denials are nothing knew.

When it suits you, you even deny that you have ever trained/armed/financed Mukti Bahni, LTTE, TTP, BLA etc. whose terrorism has resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths 

India's continous support of cross-border terrorism is more than half a century old. As said earlier, you can not fool everyone all the time.

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## salarsikander

trident2010 said:


> Well with the size, economy and military of pakistan is fraction that of India and the differential is increasing in India's favour, we all know only one who got any delusions are pakistanis.


And yet still having hard time in controlling the situation of Kashmir ? 
What are you trying to say ? You see youre making fool of yourself when you say pakistan will break into pieces. Do we see curfews in sindh or baluchistan for that matter that we see in KAshmir ? Do wee see Indian flags being raised in Pak ? ( although I would mind if it's for the purpose of promoting friendship) Apart from flag raising in Indian embassy, I dont see where, if any Indian flag was raised as show of resistance. But if we go up north to the beautiful valley that is marred by pellet guns and blind protestor, we see total opposite situation. Green flag raised, Curfews defied, Mehbboba darling deliberatley desecrating the sacred tri-colour flag.

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## Hellfire

Bratva said:


> Do I need to remind you how many terror attacks in balochistan were traced back to Indian officials facilitating them? But What was the response of you and your ilk? You laughed at those unsubstantiated evidences presented by Pakistan. So indulge me, what is the worth of your evidences when



Are you quoted?

Have you taken my posts so far sequentially and tried to understand what my thrust is?

The thrust is - dont care. Look at own shortcomings.

My posts in totality are a good guide to what I intend to convey.

May I request you to read them sequentially and not quote in isolation?

Thanks

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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> What stops PA from strengthening the democratic institutions and separating itself from the role of governance if it was genuinely keen on separating itself?


Actually nothing stops the armed ofrces, And we have seen during the rule of zaradari, The military kept mummed and zardari and his crooks were freely and openly allowed to Rape Pakistan from back and front brutally. If anything during that time was possible, It should have been martial law entirely justifiable, But then again this nation of green suffer from short term memory loss, so they got what they deserve. An governor who did everything is his hand to destroy Pakistan from deep inside. From handing out free visas to Raymond davis, looting the country to full hearts content to the Salala incident. Basically, The so called Jahil animals of democratic institutions presented Pakistan on plate to be eaten out alive

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## Hellfire

pakdefender said:


> How exactly ? , provide details
> 
> A GPS gives coordinates and not a grid. It gives coordinates of current position and not past positions , unless the GPS device is turned on at the previous position and has logging capability , which I doubt that people doing such like acts will do.
> 
> Go ahead now and provide the details , let's see you make a fool out of yourself



Interesting observations.

Did not know this one - _*GPS gives coordinates and not grid*_
I wonder what is a sic figure and eight figure Grid Reference??

Many thanks for informing me.

I am truly enlightened.

Thanks

@salarsikander did you know this gem of info??

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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> What stops PA from strengthening the democratic institutions and separating itself from the role of governance if it was genuinely keen on separating itself?


Actually nothing stops the armed ofrces, And we have seen during the rule of zaradari, The military kept mummed and zardari and his crooks were freely and openly allowed to Rape Pakistan from back and front brutally. If anything during that time was possible, It should have been martial law entirely justifiable, But then again this nation of green suffer from short term memory loss, so they got what they deserve. An governor who did everything is his hand to destroy Pakistan from deep inside. From handing out free visas to Raymond davis, looting the country to full hearts content to the Salala incident. Basically, The so called Jahil animals of democratic institutions presented Pakistan on plate to be eaten out alive



hellfire said:


> did you know this gem of info??


No, I am not aware of such update, Please share it if you have any news, Will examine that in detail


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## Levina

Bratva said:


> What is the proof that that these attacks were done by Jaish ?


1. Lolab-Uri-Sopore are JeM areas.
2. Suicide attacks. JeM unlike other groups believes in suicide squads. 
3. Weapons and Intelligence input. 




Bratva said:


> You and your jingoistic army has nothing better to do but just to kill Unarmed kids and adults and blame Paksitan every now and then


I expected a quality post. Leave provocation to the trolls. They do it better.


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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> I am sorry but perhaps you can re-examine the sequence of events
> 
> Modi-NS meet. What happens Pathankot
> 
> Doval - and their NSA meet. Joint investigation is agreed to. In unprecedented step and an act of trust Pakistani personnel are allowed to visit Pathankot. Agreement was for reciprocal visit by Indian agency to Pakistan.
> 
> What happens? Their investigations go back to Pakistan and unilaterally declare - No evidence was found and Indians will not be allowed to visit Pakistan.
> 
> Burhan Wani came much later.
> 
> I am not the only party of guilty of narrow spectrum view point.
> 
> As for your other point. After a point all politics become appeasement. Chamberlain was guilty of the same thing? He believed in a political resolutions with Nazi Germany. Gave concessions after concessions and we ended up with Nazis getting stronger and stronger and in the end bough entire world to brink of destruction.
> 
> Pakistan now is weak, it seeks time to regroup. As @Joe Shearer said History often repeats itself - First time is a tragedy, 2nd time a farce. We have seen time and again that as soon as Pakistan consolidates and sees a weakness in us, it attacks us either directly or through proxies.



You know, intellectualisation is great. But not exactly fruitful. 

I do believe that what I have hinted so far, is how everything will most likely happen. 

I again urge you to differentiate between management and resolution. That is all I am willing to say.

Cheers


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## Areesh

The death toll has increase to *20 *as per Times now

http://www.timesnow.tv/india/video/...artyred-27-injured-in-uri-terror-attack/49420

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## Hellfire

salarsikander said:


> No, I am not aware of such update, Please share it if you have any news, Will examine that in detail



Not that. Its immaterial. I was telling arsalan that. Just a tidbit. 

The member has been kind enough to tell me that GPS gives coordinates and not grid. (And i thought we called it grid reference)

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> You know, intellectualisation is great. But not exactly fruitful.
> 
> I do believe that what I have hinted so far, is how everything will most likely happen.
> 
> I again urge you to differentiate between management and resolution. That is all I am willing to say.
> 
> Cheers



I am afraid we two are on different planes. You are clearly trying to say something but are refusing to elaborate on may be because of security or privacy reasons and I am unable to grasp the gist of your hints.

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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> Not that. Its immaterial. I was telling arsalan that. Just a tidbit.
> 
> The member has been kind enough to tell me that GPS gives coordinates and not grid. (And i thought we called it grid reference)


Well, You see the blood is boiling on either side of the border and I i'll just embrace and advice you to do the same, excepting such lunacy at this particular moment is not surprising at all

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## pakdefender

hellfire said:


> Interesting observations.
> 
> Did not know this one - _*GPS gives coordinates and not grid*_
> I wonder what is a sic figure and eight figure Grid Reference??
> 
> Many thanks for informing me.
> 
> I am truly enlightened.
> 
> Thanks



See , you have made a fool out of yourself

GPS gives CURRENT position in latitude/longitude and not past positions ... Lat/long is not the same as the national grid reference which for every country can be different , lat/long is a global standard , the national grid reference is defined by the ordnance survey of the respective country , to convert from lat/long to national grid , formula is used ... do you understand the implications of this ?

Also , GPS does not give a trail of past positions

Trail of past positions only there in devices that have logging capability , which most commonly available gps receivers dont have and certainly those heading out for such like acts will not carry devices with loggers

This is just another one of those 'milk pack' found on militant , 'id card' found on militant


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## Stealth

So before the United Nation session, India as usual trying to divert the IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir) issue. Historically before the session, this pattern has been consistently follow by the Indian establishment and the government to conduct false flag operation inside India so that they can blame Pakistan in the UN.

This time false operation executed in Uri Sector (Indian Occupied Kashmir). Highly restricted area because of Indian Army Headquarter. So obvious the HQ under strong surveillance (24/7). According to Indian News reports, 17-20 soldiers lost their life in the attack.

A nation of billions of population is running by the highly illiterate people, a state where the interior minister acting like a kid, blaming Pakistan without any evidence, where the govt nominates well known extremist and anti Pakistan leader as a head of defense committee, a state where RAW officer become a National Security Advisor (NSA) and the top of it a state where majority elected PM confessed that he was involved in the Gujrat Muslims massacre -- quite evident who is the origin of problems and confrontation in the region.

Indian state is full of educated; a very well educated people but unfortunately current rulers has no idea how to run such a large populated country who has nuclear-power neighbors.

The obsession with Pakistan of the Indian Government leading both countries towards danger-end. Worst leadership owned by any country in the region unfortunately.

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## Hellfire

salarsikander said:


> Well, You see the blood is boiling on either side of the border and I i'll just embrace and advice you to do the same, excepting such lunacy at this particular moment is not surprising at all




Yeah. That is why have been trolling all warmongers 

Sanity is required. Not blame game



pakdefender said:


> See , you have made a fool out of yourself
> 
> GPS gives CURRENT position in latitude/longitude and not past positions ... Lat/long is not the same as the national grid reference which for every country can be different , lat/long is a global standard , the national grid reference is defined by the ordnance survey of the respective country , to convert from lat/long to national grid , formula is used ... do you understand the implications of this ?
> 
> Also , GPS does not give a trail of past positions
> 
> Trail of past positions only there in devices that have logging capability , which most commonly available gps receivers dont have and certainly those heading out for such like acts will not carry devices with loggers
> 
> This is just another one of those 'milk pack' found on militant , 'id card' found on militant




Thanks for enlightment.

Now why do you use matrices??? Do elaborate that too

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## Areesh

hellfire said:


> Yeah. That is why have been trolling all warmongers
> 
> Sanity is required. Not blame game



Even trolls on this forum are better than the clowns that you have on your TV channels.

There is this guy called Sushant Sareen on that joker Arnob Goswami's show. And I quote that lunatic:

*"We should call Pakistan's nuclear bluff. And nuke Pakistan. Yeah 500 million Indians might die in Pakistani response. but at least world would be clear of this "nasoor" Pakistan. The rest 500 million Indians would then be able to build India great again in peace".*

These are your TV channels who are okay with death of 500 million Indians. This is what you are preaching on your national TV channels. This is the intellect of Arnob and his panel that brainwashes Indian nation daily.

@PaklovesTurkiye @DESERT FIGHTER Check the crap that these bharats are discussing on national TV channels.

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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> Yeah. That is why have been trolling all warmongers
> 
> Sanity is required. Not blame game
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for enlightment.
> 
> Now why do you use matrices??? Do elaborate that too



Lets the kids fight among themselves. I bet they cannot even make paper planes as we used to back in our childhood to fight 
swossh phew phew 

On-Topic. How do we diffuse the tension that has cooked up lately ??? These killing have to stop man

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## Hellfire

salarsikander said:


> Lets the kids fight among themselves. I bet they cannot even make paper planes as we used to back in our childhood to fight
> swossh phew phew
> 
> On-Topic. How do we diffuse the tension that has cooked up lately ??? These killing have to stop man



I am being taught GPS reading ... sssshhhhh


User defined Datum, MGRS ... baah ..... I like when I am taught things and called a fool too. Check @pakdefender teaching GPS ... 

On topic

Won't settle down unfortunately. There will ne retaliation for sure. Lets see.

Its a troll fest .. no use discussing anything much here. But I sincerely hope that political process is not stalled. Unfortunately we have headed into regression mode.

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## Dazzler

nair said:


> Way better than that spiral binded book which was waved infront of media......Got it.... By the way no point in taking it further, as i am bit week in trolling... Let us stop it here and talk any thing productive (if any)



So asking legitimate questions is labeled as trolling. Great analogy. What next, we are right and you are wrong type thing?


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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> I am being taught GPS reading ... sssshhhhh
> 
> 
> User defined Datum, MGRS ... baah ..... I like when I am taught things and called a fool too. Check @pakdefender teaching GPS ...
> 
> On topic
> 
> Won't settle down unfortunately. There will ne retaliation for sure. Lets see.
> 
> Its a troll fest .. no use discussing anything much here. But I sincerely hope that political process is not stalled. Unfortunately we have headed into regression mode.


 HA. Good luck with your lessons, You might as well share some that knowledge with me too when you are done learning.

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## coffee_cup

Levina said:


> LTTE and IPKF happened 2 decades back.
> 
> No proof, and nobody except you claims it.



LOL

@Irfan Baloch: Can you give the lady a little history lesson about Indian support of Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA then and TTP now? Seems like she doesn't believe in Shiri Modi G's gloating in Bangladesh as well.

The parallel universe in which Indians are living, those things never existed or exist now and flying pigs are in abundance

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## Hellfire

salarsikander said:


> HA. Good luck with your lessons, You might as well share some that knowledge with me too when you are done learning.




The member is telling me ordnance survey et al .... I am glad to learn map reading ... wonder why we use matrices and maps with a gps and how we come to know route from checking memory for way points??? 

He will show me how foolish I am. Will become wise and we will discuss this topic which is more serious elsewhere with like minded and serious people.

Gudnite

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## salarsikander

hellfire said:


> The member is telling me ordnance survey et al .... I am glad to learn map reading ... wonder why we use matrices and maps with a gps and how we come to know route from checking memory for way points???
> 
> He will show me how foolish I am. Will become wise and we will discuss this topic which is more serious elsewhere with like minded and serious people.
> 
> Gudnite


And look Youre being a good student here now. 

Oh couldn't help noticing your signature

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## pakdefender

hellfire said:


> I am being taught GPS reading ... sssshhhhh
> 
> 
> User defined Datum, MGRS ... baah ..... I like when I am taught things and called a fool too. Check @pakdefender teaching GPS ...
> 
> On topic
> 
> Won't settle down unfortunately. There will ne retaliation for sure. Lets see.
> 
> Its a troll fest .. no use discussing anything much here. But I sincerely hope that political process is not stalled. Unfortunately we have headed into regression mode.



good , with the likes you on the job in india means all is well


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## Joe Shearer

hellfire said:


> The member is telling me ordnance survey et al .... I am glad to learn map reading ... wonder why we use matrices and maps with a gps and how we come to know route from checking memory for way points???
> 
> He will show me how foolish I am. Will become wise and we will discuss this topic which is more serious elsewhere with like minded and serious people.
> 
> Gudnite



Wanted you to see this post by a friend: He's been defending that moron G. D. Bakshi, but seems to have lost his patience at last. 

Undone at Uri
--------
A terror attack has taken grim toll on the Army and as usual, we have hyper-ventilating media and more hyper military veterans lambasting the enemy with invective, abuse and revenge.
I am ashamed that most have no clue where Uri is, leave alone sensibly analyse whats happened. Certainly, the media has little clue about the ground reality and the military veterans aren't correcting them, so worked up they appear to be to demand instant revenge above all.
Uri is 19 kms inside the LC...It is 40 kms from Baramula and 104 from Srinagar. This makes one fact clear that media and some military veterans do not seem to know: The attack site is WELL INSIDE the LC...NOT on it or even close to it.
This makes matters rather more serious.
The last thing on our minds, dear hyper Gen GD Bakshi, Col RSN Singh, Commodore Sahib, should be to rush out SF for an attack on "**** Camps"...
What is needed is professional assessment of how and where breaches in security occurred to allow unchallenged access 19 kms inside. Those breaches must be instantly plugged. Simultaneously, if sleeper cells are at work, the Police has its hands full.
At the same time, the area must be cleared of terrorists, mines and grenades primed to blast. The injured must be taken to hospital and order restored soonest.
Blame can wait, and revenge...Both should take time and great planning/thinking/opportunity. 
What cant wait is to restore the sanctity of our layered security systems, improve intelligence by all including physical means and electronic...Prevent a repeat elsewhere.
What can wait is shouting, screaming, brownie pointing, innuendo, and political opportunism.
What can wait is the HM's choice of calling off his Russia visit. He must proceed forthwith and leave his MOS and Doval to handle matters. Russia is too important a country to keep on hold and India too big and powerful to let a terror strike paralyze Governance.
And my friend GD Bakshi...lay off, pal. Dont get hyper and so excitable that you appear to choke in anger. Warfighting does not need such gross reaction...Things are better handled by doing things right and without public announcement of intent.
Let me end by adding that Gen DS Hooda is the right officer to handle what has happened. He is cool, savvy, smart and very capable. He knows the area very intimately and will get things done right. 
He needs people to understand and mind their business to allow him and his team to handle theirs properly. My unstinted vote is for him to do what needs doing.

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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> He's been defending that moron G. D. Bakshi, but seems to have lost his patience at last.


 
Hi,

BJP came into power by playing very dangerous game. The hyper-nationalism that has been created in India did help them to win the seats but at a price which they can ill-afford. Playing politics over emotions of nations comes at terrible price. Every time some mis-event or mishap occurs fingers are pointed at Pakistan while denying the reality a chance to address the real issue. Finger pointing automatically fixes the issue as it is assumed .

Now BJP will feel the brunt, Back when sushma gee was saying to previous government to bring 10 heads for one soldier.
By invoking unwarranted nationalism back then has put her now in very terrible situation. BJP is well aware of the situation that this all is the consequence of ill-conceived policies for this particular region, which has nothing to do with Pakistan and they are hell bent on shifting blame to PAkistan ( as Always). This policy will come at price which is to carry out an attack on PAK of some sort. And they are well aware of the reality that this is not feasible at all, since the tension is all nothing but local home grown genuine grievance. Attacking Pakistan will achieve nothing and will only make matter worse for an entire region.

BJP is actually doing more harm than good. In fact all left-wing parties for that mater in any country plays with emotions and are responsible for more harm than the good they promise to bring.

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## The Eagle

cerberus said:


> Ask USA they claim it And there world are taken more credible than any force on this planet Its Diplomatically Evident



Like WMDs in Iraq. Seems like back to square one. US also shown concern regarding India using Afghanistan for unrest inside Pakistan as well as killings in Kashmir. 




Irfan Baloch said:


> you got it
> 
> I think the attack will come from Kabul side. they will start firing on villagers from the boundary and LoC as well. I pray for the safety of the poor people who might be ambushed and killed on accusation of crossing the border. the people in dehli have no shame and its their policy statement to give us befitting reply
> 
> 
> +



Well we need to be ready as well as search and hunt is on though more weak point could be GB or Baluchistan area with majority of Shia.

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## AsianLion

India does some pure lies by blaming Pakistan..lol.....so sickening to see Indians headless and lost...even a small kid knows Indian baseless lies upon lies serving no purpose ..... India knows it murdered 80+ Kashmiris fighting for freedom with 70+ days locked down curfew of the valley.....a reply was due on the occupying forces of India.


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> @Star Wars @RISING SUN @GR!FF!N @Levina @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @ranjeet @Armani @IndoUS @JanjaWeed @joekrish @Joe Shearer @dadeechi @IndoCarib @Ankit Kumar 002 @Parul @arp2041 @cerberus @Nilgiri @gslv mk3 @saurav jha
> 
> Sad times, a nation that wants to be seen as a great power is being held hostage by one that has as much power as Belgium or New Zealand.
> 
> 
> RIP to the brave soldiers, killed in their sleep whilst rotating out (potentially), this is not how any warrior wants to go.
> 
> Unfortunately their sacrifices will quickly be forgotten by an ungrateful nation and indifferent political class and Modi will be back to bear hugging Nawaz Sharif soon.
> 
> 
> But hey, I'm sure another dossier is being prepared as we speak @MilSpec


I rather not comment.

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## Joe Shearer

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> BJP came into power by playing very dangerous game. The hyper-nationalism that has been created in India did help them to win the seats but at a price which they can ill-afford. Playing politics over emotions of nations comes at terrible price. Every time some mis-event or mishap occurs fingers are pointed at Pakistan while denying the reality a chance to address the real issue. Finger pointing automatically fixes the issue as it is assumed .
> 
> Now BJP will feel the brunt, Back when sushma gee was saying to previous government to bring 10 heads for one soldier.
> By invoking unwarranted nationalism back then has put her now in very terrible situation. BJP is well aware of the situation that this all is the consequence of ill-conceived policies for this particular region, which has nothing to do with Pakistan and they are hell bent on shifting blame to PAkistan ( as Always). This policy will come at price which is to carry out an attack on PAK of some sort. And they are well aware of the reality that this is not feasible at all, since the tension is all nothing but local home grown genuine grievance. Attacking Pakistan will achieve nothing and will only make matter worse for an entire region.
> 
> BJP is actually doing more harm than good. In fact all left-wing parties for that mater in any country plays with emotions and are responsible for more harm than the good they promise to bring.



Very accurate. They now know what can and cannot be done, and haven't been able to come to terms with the limitations on their imagination. It will take them more time to work out a reasonable international policy, especially as their sycophantic pursuit of the US is clearly taking its toll of Russia's patience and friendliness. All these are so much more complicated than prancing around proclaiming that they would do great things if they could.

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## somebozo

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...g-initial-probe-indicates-jem-role-says-army/

Weapons made in Pakistan shadow markets dont have any markings of origin..


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## Sankpal

*In one of the most devastating attacks on the Army in Jammu and Kashmir, 17 Army personnel were killed and 20 left injured when four heavily armed terrorists attacked an infantry battalion in Uri.*
*By: Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Published:September 19, 2016 7:43 am




Uri attack: The Army Brigade camp which was attacked by militants in Uri, Jammu and Kashmir on Sunday. PTI Photo
In New York for the first-ever summit on Addressing Large Movements of Refugees and Migrants, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon Monday condemned the Uri militant attack in Kashmir.

Early on Sunday morning, in one of the most devastating attacks on the Army in Jammu and Kashmir, 17 Army personnel were killed and 20 left injured by four heavily armed terrorists who sneaked into the administrative buildings and store complex of an infantry battalion in Uri. This was the home the 12 Infantry Brigade, near the Line of Control (LoC).

The four terrorists were gunned down by Army personnel after a three-hour gunbattle, and a combing operation was underway. The Army said its initial findings suggested that the terrorists belonged to Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Muhammad and had come from across the LoC.
Army sources in J&K said, as per their assessment, the terrorists probably infiltrated in the last two days and familiarised themselves with the area through discreet reconnaissance.

A PTI report from Islamabad quoted Pakistan Army spokesman Lt Gen Asim Saleem Bajwa as saying that the DGMOs discussed the situation along the LoC over hotline. “Refuting the unfounded and premature Indian allegation, Pakistan DGMO asked his counterpart to share any actionable intelligence,” Radio Pakistan reported citing an ISPR release.
A senior Army officer posted in the area said the reason for the high casualties was the large number of soldiers present due to the turn-over of battalions and the tents catching fire, as the terrorists fired indiscriminately.*
*http://indianexpress.com/article/in...cretary-general-ban-ki-moon-condemns-3038462/*

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## nair

Dazzler said:


> So asking legitimate questions is labeled as trolling. Great analogy. What next, we are right and you are wrong type thing?


 Not really..... But the way our discussion were heading, i thought it wasnt a productive one, that is why i backed off.....



Joe Shearer said:


> Wanted you to see this post by a friend: He's been defending that moron G. D. Bakshi, but seems to have lost his patience at last.



Well These guys are apt for Arnab's show and its script......One more fellow (forgot his name) with same ideology or ideas...... I guess these generals should enjoy their retired life...... One fellow lost his mind and asked to create our own version of terrorists..... Seriously????


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## scorpionx

nair said:


> Not really..... But the way our discussion were heading, i thought it wasnt a productive one, that is why i backed off.....
> 
> 
> 
> Well These guys are apt for Arnab's show and its script......One more fellow (forgot his name) with same ideology or ideas...... I guess these generals should enjoy their retired life...... One fellow lost his mind and asked to create our own version of terrorists..... Seriously????


Never expected it from Shankar Roychowdhury. Always thought him to be a level headed soldier.

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Well These guys are apt for Arnab's show and its script......One more fellow (forgot his name) with same ideology or ideas...... I guess these generals should enjoy their retired life...... *One fellow lost his mind and asked to create our own version of terrorists..... Seriously*????



That shall be Gen Shankar Roy Choudhary.

Actually from a diplomatic point of view, it makes sense. It is a part of something that I had mentioned earlier - "hybrid" war while answering Spectre.

The process has to always be political. There is never a process which does not start with a political objective and does not end with a political objective. Having said that, the options in between, that is economic, diplomatic, military, information warfare and utilisation of non-state actors, are all merely tools.

We have been seeing all being employed by the adversaries. By adding the fifth dimension, you merely calibrate your responses in this hybrid asymmetric war. The same can always be justified in a calibrated response.

Having done with the theory, the practicality of issue for us is if we use this policy with respect to TTP (and here I can not stress enough that unlike what our friends in Pakistan believe, we have no correlation with the TTP for obvious reasons, their ideology in the long run will hurt us more) the dividends will be short term and pitfalls over a very long period of time.

The option of using own forces for irregular war is the only recourse left, but then that has its risk and a very detailed and well thought out cost to risk analysis has to be undertaken to actually determine whether is this an area where we would like to get involved in?

The more sane and near term strategy is for calibration of response in LC region. Strike the Launch pads from stand off weapons. It has risk of retaliation by Pakistan but if it is stand off and specific, the retaliation may be (although hard to predict) token in nature. The long term, of course, remains to try and get China and US to lean on Pakistan.

A slightly more expensive option is to mobilise and build up on our western front. This will entail Pakistan re-shifting its troops to Eastern Front thereby ceding critical space in their ongoing zarb-e-azb operation thereby pushing back their gains by months at least as also will jack up the international pressure and costs for Pakistan.

The costs for India will be high but manageable without serious economic effects.



scorpionx said:


> Never expected it from Shankar Roychowdhury. Always thought him to be a level headed soldier.




He had an adverse war report, yet became Chief!!! Thanks to BC Joshi deciding to call it quits.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> Having done with the theory, the practicality of issue for us is if we use this policy with respect to TTP (and here I can not stress enough that unlike what our friends in Pakistan believe, we have no correlation with the TTP for obvious reasons,* their ideology in the long run will hurt is more)* the dividends will be short term and pitfalls over a very long period of time.



This is the most important part, which i am sure New delhi has factored in....... and will never ever support a group as deadly as TTP... and I do not think we would want our hand to be dirtied with any association with other moronic groups......



hellfire said:


> A slightly more expensive option is to mobilise and build up on our western front. This will entail Pakistan re-shifting its troops to Eastern Front thereby ceding critical space in their ongoing zarb-e-azb operation thereby pushing back their gains by months at least as also will jack up the international pressure and costs for Pakistan.



The way this attack is handled, I do not see this happening....... Even the statements are calibrated (other than that from HM and a BJP leader)......Most probably this would taken up with NS directly or indirectly...... and the story would continue....

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## jaunty

salarsikander said:


> BJP came into power by playing very dangerous game. The hyper-nationalism that has been created in India did help them to win the seats but at a price which they can ill-afford.



Actually you are wrong. BJP came into power playing a very safe game. They were helped immensely by two factors. (1) Scams after scams from the previous govt, (2) Economic slowdown in the last few years of UPA. Those two were their main agendas during the campaign trail. If you listen to Modi's campaign speeches, most of them were all about development and ache din. Of course there were some usual rhetoric to please the masses but those weren't his main focus. The hyper-nationalism stuff you are talking about came in later. The reason is very simple. It was obvious that they wouldn't be able to achieve the ache din they promised in 5 years. For many of us (I actually supported Modi in 2014) that would have been fine because we knew Modi did not have a magic wand to solve all our problems in 5 years. But you know how most of the voters are in our countries. So they needed something else to stay in power. That's when their fraud nationalism agenda came into place. Now in just over 2 years they have managed to make cow vigilantes the new norm in India.



salarsikander said:


> Now BJP will feel the brunt, Back when sushma gee was saying to previous government to bring 10 heads for one soldier.
> By invoking unwarranted nationalism back then has put her now in very terrible situation.



Sushma has no real power. She has been reduced to doing mainly humanitarian works and she seems to be doing a good job at it. Despite her earlier theatrics, Sushma Swaraj is actually a very capable and sane person. But Modi is an expert in sidelining his in-party rivals (he brought in the guy who helped him make Gujrarat BJP a one man show through "various" means and made him the national president of BJP). Sushma was one of his main rivals for the top post before 2014, you get the point.

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## Roybot

Apparently most of the soldiers died cause of the fire, not bullets or grenades. Fire retardant tents could have reduced the number of casualties.


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## Joe Shearer

somebozo said:


> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...r-soldiers-at-a-time-of-our-choosing-3038242/
> 
> this attack has all the makings of a false flag to pull Pakistan shalwar down in the UNGA assembly..



@somebozo 

If it's all the same for you, could we restrict activities to the Pakistani _kameez_ alone?



hellfire said:


> That shall be Gen Shankar Roy Choudhary.
> 
> Actually from a diplomatic point of view, it makes sense. It is a part of something that I had mentioned earlier - "hybrid" war while answering Spectre.[...]
> 
> 
> 
> He had an adverse war report, yet became Chief!!! Thanks to BC Joshi deciding to call it quits.



Shankar Roy Choudhary? I'm taken aback. I always had him down as a calm, peaceful guy. 

He wasn't expected to be chief. Why do you think they gave him ARTRAC?

I know where he was before the 71 war, he was a Brigade Major in Eastern Command, where was he during that war?

Is it true that in future the ARTRAC incumbent is not going to be considered for COAS? Someone senior said it, but given the twinkle in his eye, I don't know what to think, whether he was being serious or kidding a bloody civilian.

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## Hellfire

Joe Shearer said:


> Shankar Roy Choudhary? I'm taken aback. I always had him down as a calm, peaceful guy.
> 
> He wasn't expected to be chief. Why do you think they gave him ARTRAC?
> 
> I know where he was before the 71 war, he was a Brigade Major in Eastern Command, where was he during that war?
> 
> Is it true that in future the ARTRAC incumbent is not going to be considered for COAS? Someone senior said it, but given the twinkle in his eye, I don't know what to think, whether he was being serious or kidding a bloody civilian.




BC Joshi decided to call it a day so he happened to be the senior most, lucky break for him I guess.

Yes, ARTRAC is a sideshow. East is the hot shot nowadays. West is also low priority, all to do with change of threat perception. Assessment of West being a static front is the reason.

There was some adverse comments on his war report of 1965 I think. Dont recall the exact circumstances as second hand info, but an open secret. Things got changed at MS. 

During 71 was at Jessore as per open sources.


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## nair

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> And what do you think we should do?Keep getting our soldiers killed?



Do you realise these guys have crossed 19 kms undetected!!!!! And the way attack has carried, there are likely chances of inside help...... Now the question we should ask is?? 

1) How did they manage to infiltrate??? (this is very important as we need to plug in the gap)
2) How did they travel 19 kms undetected??? 
3) If there was an inside help ( i mean some one who lives in India) This need to be probed and found, as this will lead to much more info on the handlers and perpetrators (not that it is going to make any difference, but sure as civilised nation, this can be used to shame the perpetrators, It will also give the real picture who was behind the attack, and what was the intention, the timing is very crucial)
4) Why there was no intel on it (If they already had, how did we goof up?)

For me the above is more important than giving the "befitting reply"...... We are responsible for our own safety...... And if some one attacks you then it is our inability to stop the attack......

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## Arsalan

hellfire said:


> GPS grids point to origin in P0K. Confirmed.


That is what i am saying, if this sort of efficiency was shown BEFORE the attack this could have been prevented!! 

Anyway, you and me both know very well how EASY it is to get the gadgets with GPS pointing to Azad Kashmir or ANY OTHER PART of the world. What i am pointing at is how QUICK the media and even some government was to balme and point fingers at Pakistan and the reasons are quite obvious. It is much easier to put the balme of ones own follies on others!!

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## cerberus

nair said:


> Do you realise these guys have crossed 19 kms undetected!!!!! And the way attack has carried, there are likely chances of inside help...... Now the question we should ask is??
> 
> 1) How did they manage to infiltrate??? (this is very important as we need to plug in the gap)
> 2) How did they travel 19 kms undetected???
> 3) If there was an inside help ( i mean some one who lives in India) This need to be probed and found, as this will lead to much more info on the handlers and perpetrators (not that it is going to make any difference, but sure as civilised nation, this can be used to shame the perpetrators, It will also give the real picture who was behind the attack, and what was the intention, the timing is very crucial)
> 4) Why there was no intel on it (If they already had, how did we goof up?)
> 
> For me the above is more important than giving the "befitting reply"...... We are responsible for our own safety...... And if some one attacks you then it is our inability to stop the attack......


They trained fidayeen
guys and isn't the same way Special forces
operate to seek into Enemy terroritory

Inside job might be done by local workers that come in out of base for different reasons
From support of local sympathisers

It seems the target was planned months ago they were just waiting for response right moment to strike
What made me think is it more dangerous that they had prior knowledge about Convoy moment about regimentals movement
That was some classified stuff how they learn is matter of investigation

Problem is we are busy in attacking political apratus giving escaping route high incompetence shown by local area commander in Uri

Army can't hide its negligence here behind 17 matyr's some heads should be roll

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## T90TankGuy

There are a lot of people in india saysing is this na


nair said:


> Hope the terrorists are sent to their ultimate destination quickly.....
> 
> One good thing is, since this happened in Kashmir this will never be called a false flag in pdf.... same guy's attack another state would automatically qualify to be a false flag


Its already being called a false flag by some here.


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## nair

jbgt90 said:


> Its already being called a false flag by some here.



I made that post in the morning i guess..... But then my assumptions were wrong, and some of the most knowledgable members also called it to be false flag.........

For some the logic is simple:

1) Any terrorist attack in India : A false flag
2) Any terrorist attack in Pak : It is RAW.....

We used to use the 2nd point in every attack (still we use it), but thank god we havent used the first one yet.... May be we have less script writers or conspiracy theorists.....

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## T90TankGuy

nair said:


> I made that post in the morning i guess..... But then my assumptions were wrong, and some of the most knowledgable members also called it to be false flag.........
> 
> For some the logic is simple:
> 
> 1) Any terrorist attack in India : A false flag
> 2) Any terrorist attack in Pak : It is RAW.....


You know i always thought the "foreign hand" argument went away in the 80s . never knew it's variations would come back to haunt us even today .

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## nair

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Sorry my friend but you are deluded.The help comes from Kashmiri seperatists.Pakistani Army provides the covering fire.3 groups infiltrated 1 in Poonch and this was the 2nd one.The 3rd is still alive


'Was there any cross border firing reported???? I dont think we had any firing for a week or so ....

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## Hellfire

Arsalan said:


> It is much easier to put the balme of ones own follies on others!!



True on that

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

nair said:


> 'Was there any cross border firing reported???? I dont think we had any firing for a week or so ....


Do you think every time there is cross border firing you will find it on the tv?


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## Hellfire

cerberus said:


> Army can't hide its negligence here behind 17 matyr's some heads should be roll



They will roll. In time.


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## nair

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Do you think every time there is cross border firing you will find it on the tv?



The way things are or the way things are played, I do not see any reason for hiding it.......



hellfire said:


> They will roll. In time.



Any idea how these causalities happened?? Is it due to the fire (from the fuel dump) ???

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Any idea how these causalities happened?? Is it due to the fire (from the fuel dump) ???


Fire. The whole fuel dump became an air fuel bomb.

01 x 19 yr old soldier engaged and killed one militant. Critically injured himself.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> 01 x 19 yr old soldier engaged and killed one militant. Critically injured himself



Have read this....... Hope he survives.....

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## Hellfire

jbgt90 said:


> Its already being called a false flag by some here.



Had it been a false flag, would have been somewhere like hyderabad or south. More impact.

Too much of Red Storm Rising???? Tom Clancy fans aplenty

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Have read this....... Hope he survives.....



Oh in news?? I posted it last nite. I dont read paper or watch tv.

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## T90TankGuy

hellfire said:


> Had it been a false flag, would have been somewhere like hyderabad or south. More impact.
> 
> Too much of Red Storm Rising???? Tom Clancy fans aplenty


Many over there feel 9/11 was a false flag too . go figure!!!!
tom clancy earlier novels were some what acceptable , the latter ones were just stupid. read them all in the 80-90s 
mind you he did have an airplane crashing into the capitol in one of his novels , used to a greater effect during 9/11 7 yrs later , wonder if UBL was a fan?

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## nair

hellfire said:


> Oh in news?? I posted it last nite. I dont read paper or watch tv.



Confused.......Have read somany articles, threads, news paper, and TV.... dont remember where i got that info..... Might be from you also.....

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## CorporateAffairs

RIP to all the brave hearts.
People behind these terrorists will be skinned alive, just matter of time.


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## nair

@WAJsal seems to be on a thread locking spree.......... Feel sorry for you mate....

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777772023057518592


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## WAJsal

nair said:


> @WAJsal seems to be on a thread locking spree.......... Feel sorry for you mate....


No worries, please report posts in this thread, report as many as you to help moderation. 

All TT's are requested, @PARIKRAMA ,@MilSpec , and others.... 
thank you 

@hellfire , so what's the news now, when can we expect any action?

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## Abingdonboy

Posted elsewhere:

*Some word from the ground - terrorists attacked when troops were drawing diesel from a fuel dump. This dump was attacked with something like 17 grenades in 3-minutes. This caused a major fire and tents and barracks nearby caught fire. 14 casualties on this account. Plan (gleaned from map carried by militants) was to next attack a medical unit nearby and then storm officers' mess. But terrorists got disoriented as fuel dump exploded and charged at barracks.But terrorists got disoriented as fuel dump exploded and charged at barracks. Which were luckily empty. Challenged by a young-19 year old Dogra soldier. Killed one. Got hit on head and is in hospital. Three others barricaded themselves inside empty barrack. Finished off by a team from 4 & 9 Para SF*
*
*


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## Hellfire

WAJsal said:


> No worries, please report posts in this thread, report as many as you to help moderation.
> 
> All TT's are requested, @PARIKRAMA ,@MilSpec , and others....
> thank you
> 
> @hellfire , so what's the news now, when can we expect any action?



The action is likely in another few minutes with more threads opening. We have people already gone to war in numerous threads.

Anyways coming back. Most likely specific targeting in own time, that is normal and that has been happening away from public glare. Hopefully sense prevails and actually people don't believe that an air strike is a jolly good idea.

Indian members will hate it when I say this, but 17 is not a figure to get overly excited about.

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> The action is likely in another few minutes with more threads opening. We have people already gone to war in numerous threads.
> 
> Anyways coming back. Most likely specific targeting in own time, that is normal and that has been happening away from public glare. Hopefully sense prevails and actually people don't believe that an air strike is a jolly good idea.
> 
> Indian members will hate it when I say this,* but 17 is not a figure to get overly excited about*.



Despicable comment. The fact that you know it so and still make it all the more troubling

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## Hellfire

As received


Attack started at 0515 hr. The area hit was the administrative area where the FOL had been dumped and tankers with diesel were parked. The diesel was being filled into barrels earlier and the strength was high due to that in the adjacent area. The militants lobbed 17 grenades as per witnesses into the dump, which caught fire and quickly engulfed the tents and temporary habitats nearby wherein the troops who were assigned the duty of the fuel refilling were sleeping.

Since it was diesel it effectively acted as a air fuel bomb. 13 soldiers had no chance to escape and were charred instantaneously, 32 injured.

Maps recovered are marked in _Pashtun _language.

As per plan which was written in directives, they were to kill unarmed troops in barrack area, then hit the adjacent medical aid post and thence explode themselves in the officer's mess around the location. In the ensuing confusion, the militants got disoriented and headed into a barrack where one was killed by a 19 year old new recruit who was gunned down and is critically injured. The militants hid in barrack and put up resistance till 4 PARA SF cleared them up.

Hence the smoke as evident from pictures.

This is as I predicted, an inside job with information passed by some one who is working for army.

4 more died in hospital and hence total of 17 so far with few critically injured.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/17-indian-army-soldiers-killed-in-uri-attack.449911/page-39#ixzz4Kh1TYf4r


@Abingdonboy 

posted yesterday


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## Hellfire

Spectre said:


> Despicable comment. The fact that you know it so and still make it all the more troubling




Just too bad if you don't have the stomach for it.

Not my fault that you can not appreciate the concept of loosing a few to attain overall objectives. Trust me, 17 is nothing to the consequences of other options you have right now.


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## SirHatesALot

Spectre said:


> Despicable comment. The fact that you know it so and still make it all the more troubling


LOL Nothing Despicable about what did this so called Indian State do when 160+ people got killed in Mumbai and they were all civilians. Indian State is just like Indian people coward and Incompetent.



hellfire said:


> Just too bad if you don't have the stomach for it.
> 
> Not my fault that you can not appreciate the concept of loosing a few to attain overall objectives. Trust me, 17 is nothing to the consequences of other options you have right now.


You should really tell this to Mumbai attack victims Families


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## WAJsal

If only same sympathy was present for all the poor Kashmiris who died...Hypocrisy maybe, or blinded by nationalism. May peace prevail. Will be opened at 4:30 PM PST, locked for cleaning. Members are requested to report and remain calm.
11 year old kid died yesterday, if only there were similar sympathies for Kashmiris suffering. 










regards

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## WAJsal

Any poster accusing Pakistan with no evidence will be thread ban. @Spectre ,@hellfire ,@Abingdonboy , if there are any proofs other than statements from your officials than please share them. Is there even an argument that Pakistan did this?

No proof, no point in trolling. And those talking about striking camps in GB and AJK, please...@Spectre , say if India doesn't strike what would you make of it? If Modi can't do it, its probably because there is no such thing as terror camps. At least highlight these so-called camps, expose Pakistan. At least do that.


Spectre said:


> I think limited strike in P0K is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.


Maybe there are no terror camps to target, maybe that is why there is no such reaction.


Spectre said:


> Only in case of provable beyond any question Pakistan sponsored terror strike on our civilians.


Two way street, same feelings here.


> @Irfan Baloch: Can you give the lady a little history lesson about Indian support of Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA then and TTP now? Seems like she doesn't believe in Shiri Modi G's gloating in Bangladesh as well.
> 
> The parallel universe in which Indians are living, those things never existed or exist now and flying pigs are in abundance


This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Credit: @Joe Shearer ,
_
A terror attack has taken grim toll on the Army and as usual, we have hyper-ventilating media and more hyper military veterans lambasting the enemy with invective, abuse and revenge.

I am ashamed that most have no clue where Uri is, leave alone sensibly analyse whats happened. Certainly, the media has little clue about the ground reality and the military veterans aren't correcting them, so worked up they appear to be to demand instant revenge above all.

Uri is 19 kms inside the LC...It is 40 kms from Baramula and 104 from Srinagar. This makes one fact clear that media and some military veterans do not seem to know: The attack site is WELL INSIDE the LC...NOT on it or even close to it.

This makes matters rather more serious.

The last thing on our minds, dear hyper Gen GD Bakshi, Col RSN Singh, Commodore Sahib, should be to rush out SF for an attack on "**** Camps"...

What is needed is professional assessment of how and where breaches in security occurred to allow unchallenged access 19 kms inside. Those breaches must be instantly plugged. Simultaneously, if sleeper cells are at work, the Police has its hands full.

At the same time, the area must be cleared of terrorists, mines and grenades primed to blast. The injured must be taken to hospital and order restored soonest.

Blame can wait, and revenge...Both should take time and great planning/thinking/opportunity. 

What cant wait is to restore the sanctity of our layered security systems, improve intelligence by all including physical means and electronic...Prevent a repeat elsewhere.

What can wait is shouting, screaming, brownie pointing, innuendo, and political opportunism.

What can wait is the HM's choice of calling off his Russia visit. He must proceed forthwith and leave his MOS and Doval to handle matters. Russia is too important a country to keep on hold and India too big and powerful to let a terror strike paralyze Governance.

And my friend GD Bakshi...lay off, pal. Dont get hyper and so excitable that you appear to choke in anger. Warfighting does not need such gross reaction...Things are better handled by doing things right and without public announcement of intent.

Let me end by adding that Gen DS Hooda is the right officer to handle what has happened. He is cool, savvy, smart and very capable. He knows the area very intimately and will get things done right. 

He needs people to understand and mind their business to allow him and his team to handle theirs properly. My unstinted vote is for him to do what needs doing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_
Credit: @Joe Shearer
_
I was listening to GD Bakshi yesterday. I am not an expert on strategic affairs, neither I have sufficient grasp of the ground situation more than any ordinary civilian but that even did not stop me to note the remarkable knee-jerk response from a man of his stature who is a PhD in limited warfare in South Asia.

He was wondering why India can not retaliate as Israel has done. He was advocating an overt op in deep inside Azad Kashmir and show the world "yes, we can do it and have done it." He anticipated a conventional war, recapture strategic objectives within 14/15 days before Pakistan decides to cross the N-thresh hold.

Blood is off course running high, but such sort of hawkish view seemed quite unnatural from a military professional. We need a long lasting solution and this is not solely a military one. My opinion is to deprive Pakistan from exploiting the psychological upper hand in the valley. The communal polarization by the lunatics from Sangh paribar must stop. Their disgusting attempt to define Nationalism on singular religio- cultural concept, Ram Mandir and cow slaughter issues have only fed and furthered the Islamic fundamentalist aspirations. Since 90's, the rise of Hindutva politics and the ascendence of radical Islam in the valley are almost parallel to each other. Second option would be remove security as much as possible. Kashmiris clearly are tired of check posts, barbed cordons and bunkers. Release all youths accused for stone pelting. Extra judicial detentions under public safety act must be thoroughly investigated and see if they are not being used for political bullying.

What worries me is, military solution could deliver fruits if we had seen the mehman mujahidins in these attacks. Contrarily, educated Kashmiri youths are joining the terrorist outfits. It clearly opens up scopes for us, Indians for a bit of self introspection before joining the chorus with hawks like GD Bakshi.

Regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_
Finish by saying, Kashmiris are also human, they deserve some symapthy from Indian population too. It's sad that they soldiers had to die, but who else suffers the most damage?


WAJsal said:


>


I didn't see any Indian member condemning this...

Thank you all, continue and no trolling please.....

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## Dazzler

WAJsal said:


> Any poster accusing Pakistan with no evidence will be thread ban. @Spectre ,@hellfire ,@Abingdonboy , if there are any proofs other than statements from your officials than please share them. Is there even an argument that Pakistan did this?
> 
> No proof, no point in trolling. And those talking about striking camps in GB and AJK, please...@Spectre , say if India doesn't strike what would you make of it? If Modi can't do it, its probably because there is no such thing as terror camps. At least highlight these so-called camps, expose Pakistan. At least do that.
> 
> Maybe there are no terror camps to target, maybe that is why there is no such reaction.
> 
> Two way street, same feelings here.
> 
> This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Credit: @Joe Shearer ,
> _
> A terror attack has taken grim toll on the Army and as usual, we have hyper-ventilating media and more hyper military veterans lambasting the enemy with invective, abuse and revenge.
> 
> I am ashamed that most have no clue where Uri is, leave alone sensibly analyse whats happened. Certainly, the media has little clue about the ground reality and the military veterans aren't correcting them, so worked up they appear to be to demand instant revenge above all.
> 
> Uri is 19 kms inside the LC...It is 40 kms from Baramula and 104 from Srinagar. This makes one fact clear that media and some military veterans do not seem to know: The attack site is WELL INSIDE the LC...NOT on it or even close to it.
> 
> This makes matters rather more serious.
> 
> The last thing on our minds, dear hyper Gen GD Bakshi, Col RSN Singh, Commodore Sahib, should be to rush out SF for an attack on "**** Camps"...
> 
> What is needed is professional assessment of how and where breaches in security occurred to allow unchallenged access 19 kms inside. Those breaches must be instantly plugged. Simultaneously, if sleeper cells are at work, the Police has its hands full.
> 
> At the same time, the area must be cleared of terrorists, mines and grenades primed to blast. The injured must be taken to hospital and order restored soonest.
> 
> Blame can wait, and revenge...Both should take time and great planning/thinking/opportunity.
> 
> What cant wait is to restore the sanctity of our layered security systems, improve intelligence by all including physical means and electronic...Prevent a repeat elsewhere.
> 
> What can wait is shouting, screaming, brownie pointing, innuendo, and political opportunism.
> 
> What can wait is the HM's choice of calling off his Russia visit. He must proceed forthwith and leave his MOS and Doval to handle matters. Russia is too important a country to keep on hold and India too big and powerful to let a terror strike paralyze Governance.
> 
> And my friend GD Bakshi...lay off, pal. Dont get hyper and so excitable that you appear to choke in anger. Warfighting does not need such gross reaction...Things are better handled by doing things right and without public announcement of intent.
> 
> Let me end by adding that Gen DS Hooda is the right officer to handle what has happened. He is cool, savvy, smart and very capable. He knows the area very intimately and will get things done right.
> 
> He needs people to understand and mind their business to allow him and his team to handle theirs properly. My unstinted vote is for him to do what needs doing.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _
> Credit: @Joe Shearer
> _
> I was listening to GD Bakshi yesterday. I am not an expert on strategic affairs, neither I have sufficient grasp of the ground situation more than any ordinary civilian but that even did not stop me to note the remarkable knee-jerk response from a man of his stature who is a PhD in limited warfare in South Asia.
> 
> He was wondering why India can not retaliate as Israel has done. He was advocating an overt op in deep inside Azad Kashmir and show the world "yes, we can do it and have done it." He anticipated a conventional war, recapture strategic objectives within 14/15 days before Pakistan decides to cross the N-thresh hold.
> 
> Blood is off course running high, but such sort of hawkish view seemed quite unnatural from a military professional. We need a long lasting solution and this is not solely a military one. My opinion is to deprive Pakistan from exploiting the psychological upper hand in the valley. The communal polarization by the lunatics from Sangh paribar must stop. Their disgusting attempt to define Nationalism on singular religio- cultural concept, Ram Mandir and cow slaughter issues have only fed and furthered the Islamic fundamentalist aspirations. Since 90's, the rise of Hindutva politics and the ascendence of radical Islam in the valley are almost parallel to each other. Second option would be remove security as much as possible. Kashmiris clearly are tired of check posts, barbed cordons and bunkers. Release all youths accused for stone pelting. Extra judicial detentions under public safety act must be thoroughly investigated and see if they are not being used for political bullying.
> 
> What worries me is, military solution could deliver fruits if we had seen the mehman mujahidins in these attacks. Contrarily, educated Kashmiri youths are joining the terrorist outfits. It clearly opens up scopes for us, Indians for a bit of self introspection before joining the chorus with hawks like GD Bakshi.
> 
> Regards
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _
> Finish by saying, Kashmiris are also human, they deserve some symapthy from Indian population too. It's sad that they soldiers had to die, but who else suffers the most damage?
> 
> I didn't see any Indian member condemning this...
> 
> Thank you all, continue and no trolling please.....



They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by their hawkish politicians, Bollywood, and the hypocritic media.

They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy for an innocent soul is anything but a lost cause. I even saw an idiot advocating the curfew and justifying the death of an 11-year-old as a result of the brutality of Indian troops on this very thread.

This is a telltale sign that there is a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim, even anti-minority sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in their ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over to Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.

I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway. But trust me, sooner or later, this trend will lead this region to a disaster.

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## Spectre

WAJsal said:


> Two way street, same feelings here.



yeah. but look at things from my PoV, our govt and military have unambiguously said that the terrorists were from your side. With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.



Dazzler said:


> They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by Bollywood and their hypocritic media.
> 
> They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy after that is anything but a lost cause.
> 
> I have noticed a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in thier ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode to these folks, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.
> 
> I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway.



Instead of blanket allegations of false flag perhaps you should introspect - whole world including your leaders have acknowledge the act of terrorism from Pakistan on Indian soil both in case of Mumbai and Pathankot. Differences have always been about the state sponsorship of such acts. You guys hide behind the curtain of plausible deniability but given enough time the truth comes out as it did in case of Mumbai attacks where elements from your then ruling dispensation belatedly admitted that "Bande Hamare the"


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## WAJsal

Spectre said:


> Pictures of training grounds of terrorists have come out before umpteen times @WAJsal but may be you are too young to remember those days. I admit I am yet to see new pics after post 2010 but from 90s to early 2000s they were quite frequent. Headley, Kasab and the guy arrested recently also lay weight to these claims


All were dismantled by Musharraf, anything new. Any evidence for current claims will be welcome. 


Dazzler said:


> They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by Bollywood and their hypocritic media.
> 
> They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy after that is anything but a lost cause.
> 
> I have noticed a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in thier ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode to these folks, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.
> 
> I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway.


I don't like the hypocrisy Indian masses show, but i still have better hopes. 


Spectre said:


> With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.


Funny, nationalism is killing logic. Just another day...


WAJsal said:


> This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent.

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## Dazzler

Spectre said:


> yeah. but look at things from my PoV, our govt and military have unambiguously said that the terrorists were from your side. With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of blanket allegations of false flag perhaps you should introspect - whole world including your leaders have acknowledge the act of terrorism from Pakistan on Indian soil both in case of Mumbai and Pathankot. Differences have always been about the state sponsorship of such acts. You guys hide behind the curtain of plausible deniability but given enough time the truth comes out as it did in case of Mumbai attacks where elements from your then ruling dispensation belatedly admitted that "Bande Hamare the"



Since your politicians and media are always quick throw the blame, they should provide workable intelligence and concrete evidence first. I am afraid, you lack both.

Pathankot is still a test case to your arrogance and blatant stubbornness. I dont see anything constructive coming of this either.


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## Spectre

WAJsal said:


> Funny, nationalism is killing logic. Just another day...



You are welcome to that opinion.. However there is an equally good and time tested logical aid - Occam's Razor - Simplest Explanation is often the most probable one. So instead of going to the dark shadows of conspiracy theories and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.


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## Joe Shearer

I absolutely refuse to get into this dog-fight until responsible people on both sides accept that there have been stupid actions on both sides,and both need to introspect. There's no point making an Aunt Sally of meself.

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> Since your politicians and media are always quick throw the blame, they should provide workable intelligence and concrete evidence first. I am afraid, you lack both.
> 
> Pathankot is still a test case to your arrogance and blatant stubbornness. I dont see anything constructive coming of this either.



Nothing would convince you - how can it? will any guilty party admit to crime out of goodness of their heart? Mumbai case was plain as day. Truckload of evidence was provided - Result nada! zilch!. The monster still roams freely, runs terrorist camp and spews venom without any sanction. 

So instead of banging our heads over the brick wall - perhaps we should try something else.

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## WAJsal

Spectre said:


> and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.


That's what i want you to do, that's exactly what i was talking about. Sometimes you take pride but on some occasion you are in denial. What else was Modi saying just the other day?


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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> I absolutely refuse to get into this dog-fight until responsible people on both sides accept that there have been stupid actions on both sides,and both need to introspect. There's no point making an Aunt Sally of meself.



You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary. 

Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other. 

Regards



WAJsal said:


> That's what i want you to do, that's exactly what i was talking about. Sometimes you take pride but on some occasion you are in denial. What else was Modi saying just the other day?



If you are talking about 71 then ofcourse you are correct. Actions can be seen in the same context.

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## Dazzler

Spectre said:


> Nothing would convince you - how can it? will any guilty party admit to crime out of goodness of their heart? Mumbai case was plain as day. Truckload of evidence was provided - Result nada! zilch!. The monster still roams freely, runs terrorist camp and spews venom without any sanction.
> 
> So instead of banging our heads over the brick wall - perhaps we should try something else.



Indeed, the monster roams and the people stand numb to this..

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> Indeed, the monster roams and the people stand numb to this..



This is a strawman argument. Kindly don't deflect - issue in discussion was the futility of providing evidence when the other side refuses to acknowledge it.

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## Dazzler

Spectre said:


> This is a strawman argument. Kindly don't deflect - issue in discussion was the futility of providing evidence when the other side refuses to acknowledge it.



Not quite, they are all related, no matter how much you deny.

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## Pandora

Spectre said:


> You are welcome to that opinion.. However there is an equally good and time tested logical aid - Occam's Razor - *Simplest Explanation is often the most probable one*. So instead of going to the dark shadows of conspiracy theories and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.



I can quote a thousand quotes with opposing views

To rush into explanations is always a sign of weakness by Agatha Christie

It is easy to be wise in the explanation of an experience one has not personally witnessed by Algernon Blackwood

All definitions, explanations, distinctions, evaluations tend to be self-serving by Marty Rubin

We have, as human beings, a storytelling problem. We're a bit too quick to come up with explanations for things we don't really have an explanation for by Malcolm Gladwell

World is not as simple as bunch of quotes which just sound wise with no substance whatsoever by *smuhs1 *


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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary.



Sorry, that is your assumption, and it is untrue. 

I AM REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO THE URI ATTACK.

It is undeniable that the Kashmir unrest is part of the very big picture, but the number of layers involved is large. All layers are connected, but in a certain gradation; everything is not connected to everything else. I could spend a useful one hour detailing the interconnects, but don't want to take the time to explain to those - almost everybody in this forum - who already know everything about everything and don't need to be confused with the facts.




> Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about 71 then ofcourse you are correct. Actions can be seen in the same context.

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> Not quite, they are all related, no matter how much you deny.



How are foreign terrorists from Pakistan conducting an attack in IA which had no role in the death of the girl are related? Boy was killed when local Kashmiri policemen fired pellets on the local Kashmiri protestors


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## Dazzler

Spectre said:


> How are foreign terrorists from Pakistan conducting an attack in IA which had no role in the death of the girl are related? Boy was killed when local Kashmiri policemen fired pellet girls on the local Kashmiri protestors



Where is your proof that they came from pakistan?? You are beating the same bush again and again.


Here you go...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof

*proof
pruːf/*
_*noun*_

*1.
evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.
"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"
synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification,validation, attestation, demonstration, substantiation, witness, testament; More*


*2.
PRINTING
a trial impression of a page, taken from type or film and used for making corrections before final printing.
synonyms: page proof, galley proof, galley, pull, slip, trial print; *
revise
*"a desk strewn with the proofs of a book he was correcting"*

_*adjective*_

*1.
able to withstand something damaging; resistant.
"the marine battle armour was proof against most weapons"
synonyms: resistant, impenetrable, impervious, repellent; More
*
*2.
denoting a trial impression of a page or printed work.
"a proof copy is sent up for checking"*
_*verb*_

*1.
make (fabric) waterproof.
"the flysheet is made from proofed nylon"*
*2.
make a proof of (a printed work, engraving, etc.).
"proofing could be done on a low-cost printer"*

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## Spectre

smuhs1 said:


> I can quote a thousand quotes with opposing views
> 
> To rush into explanations is always a sign of weakness by Agatha Christie
> 
> It is easy to be wise in the explanation of an experience one has not personally witnessed by Algernon Blackwood
> 
> All definitions, explanations, distinctions, evaluations tend to be self-serving by Marty Rubin
> 
> We have, as human beings, a storytelling problem. We're a bit too quick to come up with explanations for things we don't really have an explanation for by Malcolm Gladwell
> 
> World is not as simple as bunch of quotes which just sound wise with no substance whatsoever by *smuhs1 *



What i presented was not a quote but a logical instrument widely used and developed as a problem solving technique. What you have provided are quotes by celebrities present and past falling in the same category as village wisdom. 

However you are welcome



Dazzler said:


> Where is your proof that they came from pakistan?? You are beating the same bush again and again.
> 
> 
> Here you go...
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof
> 
> *proof
> pruːf/*
> _*noun*_
> 
> *1.
> evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.
> "you will be asked to give proof of your identity"
> synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification,validation, attestation, demonstration, substantiation, witness, testament; More*
> *2.
> PRINTING
> a trial impression of a page, taken from type or film and used for making corrections before final printing.
> synonyms: page proof, galley proof, galley, pull, slip, trial print; *
> revise
> *"a desk strewn with the proofs of a book he was correcting"*
> _*adjective*_
> 
> *1.
> able to withstand something damaging; resistant.
> "the marine battle armour was proof against most weapons"
> synonyms: resistant, impenetrable, impervious, repellent; More*
> *2.
> denoting a trial impression of a page or printed work.
> "a proof copy is sent up for checking"*
> _*verb*_
> 
> *1.
> make (fabric) waterproof.
> "the flysheet is made from proofed nylon"*
> *2.
> make a proof of (a printed work, engraving, etc.).
> "proofing could be done on a low-cost printer"*



1. Markings on the weapons retrieved. 

2. MO displayed which is similar to patterns observed in the prior attacks by Pakistani terrorists. 

3. GPS grids from devices recovered.


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## Pandora

Spectre said:


> What i presented was not a quote but a logical instrument widely used and developed as a problem solving technique. *What you have provided are quotes by celebrities present and past falling in the same category as village wisdom. *
> 
> However you are welcome



Einstein in one of the most quoted people on this planet and he was just a physicist. Like i said quotes are not iron clad rules but just source of inspiration.

As for your logic of Simplest Explanation is often the most probable one
you cant apply simple logic in a complex world where thousands of papers on psychology are published every month which very much blow this naive statement to oblivion. In my opinion this statement is from a lazy fool who didnt want to get out of bed to explain.


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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> Sorry, that is your assumption, and it is untrue.
> 
> I AM REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO THE URI ATTACK.
> 
> It is undeniable that the Kashmir unrest is part of the very big picture, but the number of layers involved is large. All layers are connected, but in a certain gradation; everything is not connected to everything else. I could spend a useful one hour detailing the interconnects, but don't want to take the time to explain to those - almost everybody in this forum - who already know everything about everything and don't need to be confused with the facts.



I had to read your post like 10 times. Now this is what i called a layered post - After skimming, i thought I was being insulted, after first proper read I thought every one else was, after 2nd read I got the gist.

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## Dazzler

Spectre said:


> What i presented was not a quote but a logical instrument widely used and developed as a problem solving technique. What you have provided are quotes by celebrities present and past falling in the same category as village wisdom.
> 
> However you are welcome
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Markings on the weapons retrieved.
> 
> 2. MO displayed which is similar to patterns observed in the prior attacks by Pakistani terrorists.
> 
> 3. GPS grids from devices recovered.





So this is your proof,

see these, according to your analogy, you admit that your country is instigating terrorism in pakistan right?

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## Hellfire

@Spectre @Joe Shearer

The "indian vickers machine gun" Swat is:

Russian PKM LMG!!! Nice try!!!!

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> So this is your proof,
> 
> see these, according to your analogy, you admit that your country is instigating terrorism in pakistan right?



From your PoV - certainly. This comprises of proof.



hellfire said:


> @Spectre @Joe Shearer
> 
> The "indian vickers machine gun" Swat is:
> 
> Russian PKM LMG!!! Nice try!!!!



Sorry I know as much about weapons as I know about ornithology- which is to say nothing. So I had to concede that point to @Dazzler


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## Tipu7

In early 2016, on PDF I debated about Kashmir issue with couple of Indian members and pointed out that if India respect human rights and give up her claims on Jammu & Kashmir in the light of promises made by their founding fathers, then peace will restore in region and South Asia can turn into a influenced region in World. Poor Indian soldiers are paying price of immoral strategic games played by high elite.
But my Indian counterparts refused this idea and said that they don't care about loss of lives in Kashmir as they are nation of over billion and they will remain in Kashmir no matter how heavy price their soldiers will pay, they claimed that India has full capability to "absorb" military casualties and tensions in Kashmir is now part of history.

Now today, after six months situation is entirely changed. Freedom movement is on full swing, Indian state terrorism is on high and loss of "ONLY" 20 soldiers is not acceptable by those who were happily willing to "absorb" as many casualties as possible just few months ago.

It's hypocrisy of new low limit. They say one thing today, next day they change their stance by 180 degree.

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## Hellfire

@Spectre Russian PKM above

here. I am busy and going offline for few days. hence pointers for you


Indian 7.62 mm Vickers LMG an excellent weapon. Here








@Joe Shearer

Come on this is fun!

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## nair

If the terrorists are smart.... There are chances of a big Ticket attack in pak .. ... The blame would automatically directed towards India.. .. and we are back to square one....

Why this Post?



hellfire said:


> @Spectre Russian PKM above
> 
> here. I am busy and going offline for few days. hence pointers for you
> 
> 
> Indian 7.62 mm Vickers LMG an excellent weapon. Here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Joe Shearer
> 
> Come on this is fun!


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## Hellfire

@Spectre 

Now I trust you to be able to debunk and not concede on bluffs. 

Last few words before I go offline for some days.


1. There has been a reduction in number of camps and definitely a significant decrease in infiltration. However the former was due to US pressure and the latter is mainly due to a better grid established.

2. The day OBL was killed, that was the day US lost its vice like grip over Pakistan. That is the rationale why, my dear @Spectre you frustrate me with your very narrow spectrum of thinking. Ajmal Kasab - useless for India, expenditure on exchequer, but it ensured that US maintained pressure on Pakistan.

3. If you correlate the divergence in US-Pak relations, it was strained till OBL was eliminated. Once it was achieved, Pakistan went on its own course. Today, Pakistan simply thumbs its nose on US. The only little bit of support US has is from the officer cadre of PA to some extent, but that also is fading as the policy of cutting back on US Aid to Pakistan is counter-productive as there is literally no incentive to PA officers to listen to US. China has only gladly filled this void, hence you see PA trying to establish its supremacy over civil law enforcement agencies in CPEC too. The SSD spat with NS govt is a case in example.

4. The markings and all do not matter. Weapons can be brought from anywhere. The clincher was the map with matrices and GPS coordinates as recovered. However, it is immaterial.

5. When I said 17 is hardly a cost, I meant it. The alternative is thousands of casualties with a rash action. Even US took a week plus to act on Sept 9/11. Everything has to be thought out. You simply can not launch an attack on whims and fancies. Any attack will have to be done taking US and Russia on board. Perhaps, Mumbai attack was actually a time when Obama called up Pakistan to tell that India would be justified in hitting them.

6. The only option for India is to strengthen it's own procedures and not re-act. A war is never won by reactions. Revenge is a dish best served cold - with minimal costs to own self. Read Sun Tzu. It makes sense.

7. I will urge you to think on what I just wrote.

@nair 

Post number #808 of TTC. Telling spectre where they just bluffed. You can say ... adding spice to the exchange!

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## notorious_eagle

hellfire said:


> @Spectre @Joe Shearer
> 
> The "indian vickers machine gun" Swat is:
> 
> Russian PKM LMG!!! Nice try!!!!



Sir

I usually avoid these usual di** measuring contests, but i can tell you from the horse's mouth, a full leading Colonel who actively served in Bajaur and Torkham, he directly blamed Indian support for terrorist elements in Balochistan and FATA. 

After interrogation, members of the BRA revealed that they received weapons and money from Indian elements in Afghanistan. This has been forwarded to Americans not once but multiple times. This is what lead to American crackdown on NDS and Indian elements in Afghanistan to placate Pakistani concerns. Talal Bugti travelled to Switzerland on an Indian passport with a false name, this was revealed by Pakistani Minister of Defence. To say that there is no Indian involvement in FATA and especially Balochistan would be an understatement.

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## Spectre

hellfire said:


> @Spectre
> 
> Now I trust you to be able to debunk and not concede on bluffs.
> 
> Last few words before I go offline for some days.
> 
> 
> 1. There has been a reduction in number of camps and definitely a significant decrease in infiltration. However the former was due to US pressure and the latter is mainly due to a better grid established.
> 
> 2. The day OBL was killed, that was the day US lost its vice like grip over Pakistan. That is the rationale why, my dear @Spectre you frustrate me with your very narrow spectrum of thinking. Ajmal Kasab - useless for India, expenditure on exchequer, but it ensured that US maintained pressure on Pakistan.
> 
> 3. If you correlate the divergence in US-Pak relations, it was strained till OBL was eliminated. Once it was achieved, Pakistan went on its own course. Today, Pakistan simply thumbs its nose on US. The only little bit of support US has is from the officer cadre of PA to some extent, but that also is fading as the policy of cutting back on US Aid to Pakistan is counter-productive as there is literally no incentive to PA officers to listen to US. China has only gladly filled this void, hence you see PA trying to establish its supremacy over civil law enforcement agencies in CPEC too. The SSD spat with NS govt is a case in example.
> 
> 4. The markings and all do not matter. Weapons can be brought from anywhere. The clincher was the map with matrices and GPS coordinates as recovered. However, it is immaterial.
> 
> 5. When I said 17 is hardly a cost, I meant it. The alternative is thousands of casualties with a rash action. Even US took a week plus to act on Sept 9/11. Everything has to be thought out. You simply can not launch an attack on whims and fancies. Any attack will have to be done taking US and Russia on board. Perhaps, Mumbai attack was actually a time when Obama called up Pakistan to tell that India would be justified in hitting them.
> 
> 6. The only option for India is to strengthen it's own procedures and not re-act. A war is never won by reactions. Revenge is a dish best served cold - with minimal costs to own self. Read Sun Tzu. It makes sense.
> 
> 7. I will urge you to think on what I just wrote.
> 
> @nair
> 
> Post number #808 of TTC. Telling spectre where they just bluffed. You can say ... adding spice to the exchange!



I never said that I don't understand the line of reasoning. I do. It is just that I don't agree with it. Yours is Kissinger approach - the old exploit and not enforce rule book followed till recently by CIA and foggy bottom since 60s.

Mine is the enforcement - stop it on it's tracks without concern for probable but not certain accrued gains in future.

I have had a lot of debate on this irl with diplomats and such but like all things its a matter of opinion.

Regards


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## Hellfire

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> I usually avoid these usual di** measuring contests, but i can tell you from the horse's mouth, a full leading Colonel who actively served in Bajaur and Torkham, he directly blamed Indian support for terrorist elements in Balochistan and FATA.
> 
> After interrogation, members of the BRA revealed that they received weapons and money from Indian elements in Afghanistan. This has been forwarded to Americans not once but multiple times. This is what lead to American crackdown on NDS and Indian elements in Afghanistan to placate Pakistani concerns. Talal Bugti travelled to Switzerland on an Indian passport with a false name, this was revealed by Pakistani Minister of Defence. To say that there is no Indian involvement in FATA and especially Balochistan would be an understatement.



I have said TTP we don't support. Very categorically. That organisation is not our baby. Sorry. That is Saudi baby you have. You try to throw that on us too.

Rest is off topic. I have always said 'calibrated' trouble in Baluchistan is a possibility.

The weapon post was posted to debunk the proof as posted. It is the wrong make and wrong weapon. A Russian PKM being passed off as Indian Vickers LMG is a laugh ... that is all.

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## Spectre

@Norge Stronk what do you think is strategically the right approach? Let's say you have a drug dealer who has committed capital crimes and is even involved in terrorism.

1. One approach is to cultivate this asset and then leap from him to someone higher up the chain and so on. This might gain you the big fish but can also amount to nothing. The dealer could be just playing you as has happened numerous times and more recently in case of David Coleman Headly

2. You arrest him and incarcerate him immediately and stop the unintended chaos from happening if he had remained free. 

It can be extrapolated to not only individuals but countries as well like for eg US despite knowing that a certain country is involved in nuclear proliferation or acts of violence on others can keep mum and continue supporting it in return for bigger prize like for eg better ties with China but in the end it can come to bite back as they only end up strengthening what would be their future adversary and in return lay the seeds for nuclear proliferation, terrorism etc.

Bernie Sanders said the same thing in debates when he criticized Hillary and Kissinger - Law of unintended consequences. @hellfire


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## scorpionx

Spectre said:


> You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary.
> 
> Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other.
> 
> Regards


Apparently both are off course independent of each other, but the indelible link is not very difficult to miss out. The perpetrators may have come from other side of the border as suggested by the collected evidence so far. But what if suppose we got something in Koshur next time? The emotions are running high through out the nation and it is natural. But lets not push the present government to such a state of nervous collapse where military rationalism gets overwhelmed by political exigency. 

Indian social medias, electronic medias are being flooded with responses asking for apt vengeance against Pakistan. But have we thought if the Kashmiris are also sharing the same emotional outburst and sympathies for our military? If not, we lose half of the battle to Pakistan. That is where our leadership have miserably failed again and again. Be it UPA or BJP all have an unenviable record of abysmal apathy of ground realities of Kashmir.

Uri is a crime and the perpetrators must pay for Uri doubtlessly. But please not for a second, assume that both crimes are cancelling each other. We are just trying to identify our archaic blunders so that the psychological balance tilts in favor of us. It does pay rich dividends, my friend.

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## Hellfire

@nair @MilSpec 

Did you see the post #808?

Passing off a Russian PKM as Indian Vickers Bren LMG?

And then the other day they were laughing at our idiots passing a Mig-21 as a Pakistani AC!!!!

I am tickled to death over the stupidity of subcontinental people on either side

@Waqkz interesting repeat .. from Pakistani side .. of the stupidity of Mig-21 of the other day!

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## Spectre

scorpionx said:


> Apparently both are off course independent of each other, but the indelible link is not very difficult to miss out. The perpetrators may have come from other side of the border as suggested by the collected evidence so far. But what if suppose we got something in Koshur next time? The emotions are running high through out the nation and it is natural. But lets not push the present government to such a state of nervous collapse where military rationalism gets overwhelmed by political exigency.
> 
> Indian social medias, electronic medias are being flooded with responses asking for apt vengeance against Pakistan. But have we thought if the Kashmiris are also sharing the same emotional outburst and sympathies for our military? If not, we lose half of the battle to Pakistan. That is where our leadership have miserably failed again and again. Be it UPA or BJP all have an unenviable record of abysmal apathy of ground realities of Kashmir.
> 
> Uri is a crime and the perpetrators must pay for Uri doubtlessly. But please not for a second, assume that both crimes are cancelling each other. We are just trying to identify our archaic blunders so that the psychological balance tilts in favor of us. It does pay rich dividends, my friend.



If we can do either of things right - correct the historic wrongs in valley or turn completely insensitive and crush out the dissent through brute force - i would be happy in case of former or satisfied in case of latter. 

We can't seem to do either of them right - there is our failing. Our national conscience thanks in large part too guys like you and @Joe Shearer does not let us turn dictatorial brutes even in Kashmir but our national apathy specially for NE and Kashmir does not let us feel their pain and suffering. In this we fail both our mainland and outlying regions.

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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


>




Another Fail. 

That's a PKM

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## nair

hellfire said:


> I am tickled to death over the stupidity of subcontinental people on either side



Better get used to it..... 

Enjoy it holidays.....


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## Joe Shearer

Tipu7 said:


> In early 2016, on PDF I debated about Kashmir issue with couple of Indian members and pointed out that if India respect human rights and give up her claims on Jammu & Kashmir in the light of promises made by their founding fathers, then peace will restore in region and South Asia can turn into a influenced region in World. Poor Indian soldiers are paying price of immoral strategic games played by high elite.
> But my Indian counterparts refused this idea and said that they don't care about loss of lives in Kashmir as they are nation of over billion and they will remain in Kashmir no matter how heavy price their soldiers will pay, they claimed that India has full capability to "absorb" military casualties and tensions in Kashmir is now part of history.
> 
> Now today, after six months situation is entirely changed. Freedom movement is on full swing, Indian state terrorism is on high and loss of "ONLY" 20 soldiers is not acceptable by those who were happily willing to "absorb" as many casualties as possible just few months ago.
> 
> It's hypocrisy of new low limit. They say one thing today, next day they change their stance by 180 degree.



This is why I am glad I am not on PDF on a regular basis any more.

You have a casual discussion with two random people. They assert certain statements. You then nurse those till an appropriate moment comes, and then fling them into the faces of all Indians, and think you have achieved a huge task of uncovering the perfidy of the entire Indian breed. 

There are various analogies that come to mind. One is a wish that your last line had tangible shape and form; I could find uses for that.

And this is why I am glad I am not on PDF on a regular basis any more.



notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> I usually avoid these usual di** measuring contests, but i can tell you from the horse's mouth, a full leading Colonel who actively served in Bajaur and Torkham, he directly blamed Indian support for terrorist elements in Balochistan and FATA.
> 
> After interrogation, members of the BRA revealed that they received weapons and money from Indian elements in Afghanistan. This has been forwarded to Americans not once but multiple times. This is what lead to American crackdown on NDS and Indian elements in Afghanistan to placate Pakistani concerns. Talal Bugti travelled to Switzerland on an Indian passport with a false name, this was revealed by Pakistani Minister of Defence. To say that there is no Indian involvement in FATA and especially Balochistan would be an understatement.



I respect your statements, and have to tell you that this is the first time that someone with credibility has come out with something concrete and believable. Earlier, it was possible to dismiss all such claims with contempt; now, I shall not do so, but will listen carefully. That does not amount to an admission, only to a conclusion that serious and responsible people cannot say things without foundation, and that these should be examined very carefully and with open minds.



Spectre said:


> If we can do either of things right - correct the historic wrongs in valley or turn completely insensitive and crush out the dissent through brute force - i would be happy in case of former or satisfied in case of latter.
> 
> We can't seem to do either of them right - there is our failing. _Our national conscience thanks in large part too guys like you and @Joe Shearer does not let us turn dictatorial brutes even in Kashmir but our national apathy specially for NE and Kashmir does not let us feel their pain and suffering. In this we fail both our mainland and outlying regions._



Sorry, your choices are false. I continue to believe in my reading of Robert Thompson, that a forceful suppression of armed militancy MUST go hand-in-hand with other measures. We can't just compress the entire doctrine into sound-bytes and hope to prevail.

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> Sorry, your choices are false. I continue to believe in my reading of Robert Thompson, that a forceful suppression of armed militancy MUST go hand-in-hand with other measures. We can't just compress the entire doctrine into sound-bytes and hope to prevail.



What about unarmed dissent asking from Independence? What of the desire to implement universal Sharia code in Kashmir? What about freedom to produce, sell and consume beef? They are legitimate demands too from Kashmiri Sunni PoV

Halfway measures is never a permanent solution - go full hog or go home.

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> What about unarmed dissent asking from Independence? What of the desire to implement universal Sharia code in Kashmir? What about freedom to produce, sell and consume beef? They are legitimate demands too from Kashmiri Sunni PoV
> 
> Halfway measures is never a permanent solution - go full hog or go home.



What is wrong with unarmed dissent asking for independence? Would you object to my unarmed demands and agitation for the right to maintain a Nizam-like harem of 89, and to be paid by the state to do so? What difference does it make, who asks for what? 
What of the demand for universal Sharia code? That, too, let them ask; our job should be to unleash the pent-up fury of the women of Kashmir against these troglodytes, not to oppose them with our own views; that is pitching one set of opinions against another, hardly an effective rebuttal.
I support the right to produce, sell and consume beef. Why did you even raise that issue? On the contrary, banning it is such an appalling act of majoritarian high-handedness.
I really didn't get your point. What is wrong with people asking for this, that or the other? Does that mean that an asking is sufficient legitimacy? and that we must then rush to pass a law to make that ask happen?

What on earth is that totally incomprehensible statement supposed to mean - go full hog or go home? 

My reaction to that is,"Don't go home; go see an alienist."

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## Dazzler

MilSpec said:


> Another Fail.
> 
> That's a PKM




Seems like OFB produces this for Indian army. Interesting


http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/


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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> What is wrong with unarmed dissent asking for independence? Would you object to my unarmed demands and agitation for the right to maintain a Nizam-like harem of 89, and to be paid by the state to do so? What difference does it make, who asks for what?
> What of the demand for universal Sharia code? That, too, let them ask; our job should be to unleash the pent-up fury of the women of Kashmir against these troglodytes, not to oppose them with our own views; that is pitching one set of opinions against another, hardly an effective rebuttal.
> I support the right to produce, sell and consume beef. Why did you even raise that issue? On the contrary, banning it is such an appalling act of majoritarian high-handedness.
> I really didn't get your point. What is wrong with people asking for this, that or the other? Does that mean that an asking is sufficient legitimacy? and that we must then rush to pass a law to make that ask happen?
> 
> What on earth is that totally incomprehensible statement supposed to mean - go full hog or go home?
> 
> My reaction to that is,"Don't go home; go see an alienist."



Oh Joe, if only you had given it more thought. Each question hits on a particular issue

1. Non violent demand for independence - Majority of those in the valley dont see themselves at part of India, the same way India did not see itself as a part of British Empire. There is certain merit in that - while they extra rights not afforded to other states, they also loose certain liberties and that too more often. Now we had debated before on the size of the grouping where I had myself put exactly the same point just in context of Lajpat Nagar wanting to be independent.
The fact remains there are no set geographical or numerical lines along which demand for independence is justifiable.

I repeat to those who protest - there struggle is no different from other freedom fighters who are lionized throughout the world. While we at power may deign to rubbish them or deflect by offering more goodies thus alleviating the sense of alienation in the end it is upto them to decide what do they want. In any case the current response though lesser in degree can be framed by propagandists to be comparable to Pakistan's in BD. In politics perception is often the reality and what we perceive varies greatly from what Kashmiris perceive.

2. Sharia - Let us face the reality of Islamic world and Islamic society in subcontinent in particular. Outside of liberal dens and urban centers, women are inconsequential. Same can be said about Hindus too but we are not discussing them. Visit any village in UP and finding a woman with an opinion on Sharia is harder than tracing bigfoot.

3. Beef - Again bear in mind that perception is often the reality when you rebut my argument: How would Muslim's feel if we start defacing Kuran? Cow is the equivalent of holy object/being in minds of many Hindus. Since we don't allow defacing Quran in India due to the little law about hurting religious sentiment we similarly dont allow killing of cow or consumtion or sale thereof in many parts of India but not all. How is burning or defacing a book is banned but not killing of a similarly significant being? The point is that we protect minority rights and sentiments be it in Kashmir or Haryana. However when Majority and minority rights directly conflict as in the case of beef consumption in Kashmir where in majority insists on it as opposed to no one sane insisting on burning Quran in Haryana we have problem. By virtue of democratic principles majority should prevail.

The point i am trying to make which is not exclusive to the above three points but all the same indicated by them is that in Kashmiri mind the demands are legitimate and denial of these demands allows them to claim detachment from the republic of India on the basis of infringement of their rights.

*In such a scenario choice india faces is binary. *

Regards

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## notorious_eagle

Joe Shearer said:


> I respect your statements, and have to tell you that this is the first time that someone with credibility has come out with something concrete and believable. Earlier, it was possible to dismiss all such claims with contempt; now, I shall not do so, but will listen carefully. That does not amount to an admission, only to a conclusion that serious and responsible people cannot say things without foundation, and that these should be examined very carefully and with open minds.



Thank You Sir and good to see you here. 

I can tell you the highest echelons of Pakistan's General Staff are convinced that Indian elements are actively supporting Baloch Separatist Groups. Talal Bugti traveled to Switzerland on an Indian passport under a false name, and many of the BRA Officers interrogated have confessed that they received money and weapons from Indian agents in Afghanistan. I could accept that one BRA Officer might have just placated India under intense interrogation just to save his skin, but not multiple BRA Officers. 

If you ask me personally, it's payback for support to Kashmiri Separatist Elements. With Modi taking over and Ajit Dovgal, activities seem to have been accelerated. Not to mention, CPEC and other developmental projects in Balochistan make this too big of a juicy Geo-Political target. The last thing Indian Strategic Planners would want is massive Chinese presence in Balochistan and PLAN Warships docking in Ormara, Gwadar.



hellfire said:


> I have said TTP we don't support. Very categorically. That organisation is not our baby. Sorry. That is Saudi baby you have. You try to throw that on us too.
> 
> Rest is off topic. I have always said 'calibrated' trouble in Baluchistan is a possibility.
> 
> The weapon post was posted to debunk the proof as posted. It is the wrong make and wrong weapon. A Russian PKM being passed off as Indian Vickers LMG is a laugh ... that is all.



Yes i agree, the Vickers were a bit too much. An AK-47 in the black market coupled with some RPG's are far cheaper options. Afghanistan is flooded with these weapons, its surprising how easy it is to acquire these over there.

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## Dazzler

hellfire said:


> I have said TTP we don't support. Very categorically. That organisation is not our baby. Sorry. That is Saudi baby you have. You try to throw that on us too.
> 
> Rest is off topic. I have always said 'calibrated' trouble in Baluchistan is a possibility.
> 
> The weapon post was posted to debunk the proof as posted. It is the wrong make and wrong weapon. A Russian PKM being passed off as Indian Vickers LMG is a laugh ... that is all.



Refer to post # 827, it is the easiest bet, made under license by OFB and can be supplied in numbers. 

http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> Seems like OFB produces this for Indian army. Interesting
> 
> 
> http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/



Pls go through the below link 

http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=Weapons&lang=en

@MilSpec


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## salarsikander

What really intrigues me is that How people are just denying the fact that the unrest was going on for more than a month, dozens killed, many more injured, blinded. This is the result of Failed and ill-conceived policies of India and successive govt to address the real issue. No tangible effort for development for this volatile region has taken place since last 60 years or so. So it is very natural for them to pick up arm and fight against the state. 

Secondly, The trend of Indian muslims in India doesn't not help much either, most of them are below the basic tax net. 

Now the question is why would Pakistan at such fragile moment do something so stupid ? Shoot itself in foot. When there is already an upcoming UN meeting, Pulling out such stunt would, first of all, Isolate Pakistan and its case for Kashmir it will in fact give boost To india's stance on Kashmir(Crackdown). So I don't find any reason why they would do it (Pakistan) 

Getting to politics side, BJP is having hard time here. . The over sensationalism they created and much hyped hyper nationalism is taking over its toll in Indian society. The 'ACHE DIn' term that was used during camping days is actually taking them to buray din. The Strategic alignment towards US and losing Russia their all time friend who has always helped them out during troubling times is a proof of ill-conceived policies that are biting BJP hard. They have failed to rein in Kashmir grievances peacefully and the only thing to deflect its attention from real issue was to pull such stunt. Which no doubt will cost BJP much more than anticipated. All theses cow vigilantes which have become norm in India during BJP time were something unheard of before. 

There is a strong wake up call from Indian section of society to carry out cross-border attack on Pakistan. OF c no such 
direct attack would take place, because there is simply no reason to Pakistan BJP is well aware of that. 

Tolerance level have obviously gone down much since BJP came into power. The Pathankot incident was nothing but local homegrown terrorist attack,a already proven and dismissed by BJP officials. 

TBH Pakistan has nothing to gain from such attacks, which will only bring more humiliation, boycott and isolation

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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> Seems like OFB produces this for Indian army. Interesting
> 
> 
> http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/


If your read your own source, OFB manufactures the PKT version of the rifle under license "The PKT is a further development of the machine gun. Modifications include the removal of the stock, a longer and heavier barrel, a gas regulator and an electric solenoid trigger".







As far as PKMs are used by PARA Special Forces as section LMG are captured weapons, OFB India doesn't list PKM as a production item on it's product portfolio.


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## notorious_eagle

An independent investigation team lead by UN Experts should be drafted to find out what happened.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

coffee_cup said:


> The thing is India has supported Mukti Bahini, LTTE for decades and now supporting BLA, TTP etc.
> 
> If you don't consider it supporting terrorists how do you expect other countries to designate your militants/freedom fighters as "terrorists"?



the chickens have come home to roost, that's all there is to it


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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> Oh Joe, if only you had given it more thought. Each question hits on a particular issue



I have taken a while to reply because of my surprise on reading your post. It really seems that we are talking past each other!



> 1. Non violent demand for independence - Majority of those in the valley dont see themselves at part of India, the same way India did not see itself as a part of British Empire. There is certain merit in that - while they extra rights not afforded to other states, they also loose certain liberties and that too more often. Now we had debated before on the size of the grouping where I had myself put exactly the same point just in context of Lajpat Nagar wanting to be independent.
> The fact remains there are no set geographical or numerical lines along which demand for independence is justifiable.



The fact is that you are confusing the liberty to seek freedom with the fact of achieving freedom. 

There is no point in going into the merit or lack of merit of current disaffection with the Union of India on the part of some Kashmiris. That was not the point of my answer at all. The point was whether or not they like being in India, whether or not they want to be Pakistani at the end of the day, or part of a Muslim-identity nation, whether or not they want to be independent of both Pakistan and India, whether or not those of us who differ are right, and this disaffection is transient and mutable, whichever of these is correct, or whichever cocktail is correct at this point of time, and whichever else may be correct at a later point of time, 

THEIR RIGHT TO ASK FOR FREEDOM IS IMMUTABLE. 
THEY HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINION AND TO SPEAK THEIR MINDS FREELY
YOU, OR I, REFUSE THEM, OR ANY OTHER INDIAN DENY THEM THIS RIGHT AT THE RISK OF ENDANGERING THE FOUNDATION OF THE INDIAN STATE.
There is NOTHING binary about this.

This is NOT negotiable.

It is NOT for you or those who agree with you to decide that you will or will not permit any Indian citizen to express their feelings; it is THEIR right under the Constitution, and we are a country ONLY because of the Constitution.

Try to get that on board. YOU and I are NOT doing the Kashmiri a favour by telling him or her that they may think and say what they like.

Their lawlessness and stone-throwing and violence is something altogether different, and their freedom to say or to write that they want to be independent is not affected by that; that is punishable under the Indian Penal Code, and the procedure laid down to enforce that Penal Code, the Criminal Procedure Code. Even a criminal does not lose his or her rights under the Constitution.

What on earth were you thinking when you wrote that? Are you completely deranged?



> I repeat to those who protest - there struggle is no different from other freedom fighters who are lionized throughout the world. While we at power may deign to rubbish them or deflect by offering more goodies thus alleviating the sense of alienation in the end it is upto them to decide what do they want. In any case the current response though lesser in degree can be framed by propagandists to be comparable to Pakistan's in BD. In politics perception is often the reality and what we perceive varies greatly from what Kashmiris perceive.



This passage above is plain blather and has nothing relevant. Just blather.



> 2. Sharia - Let us face the reality of Islamic world and Islamic society in subcontinent in particular. Outside of liberal dens and urban centers, women are inconsequential. Same can be said about Hindus too but we are not discussing them. Visit any village in UP and finding a woman with an opinion on Sharia is harder than tracing bigfoot.



Singularly stupid argument - I am sorry, and I do not want to hurt your feelings, but the argument is stupid.

Are you planning to bring back Suttee next? 

I will waste none of my time or spend any effort to explain why you are wrong; it is only necessary to say that a deformation of society is not a justification for preserving that deformation, or for withholding the justice that is inherent in the Constitution from being availed of by those who wish to avail of it. If you were right, there would be no Muslim women working actively against the oral Triple Talaq. 

Stupid. Period.



> 3. Beef - Again bear in mind that perception is often the reality when you rebut my argument: How would Muslim's feel if we start defacing Kuran?



There are specific laws governing this, the consumption of beef. And as long as these are law, citizens have to abide by them. Where there is no law banning production of beef for the table, or selling it, or preparing it, Indians can do precisely what they like about it. I don't have to cite the Constitution here, only the example of Dubai, where pork is freely available in supermarkets frequented by non-Muslims. 

Regarding Muslims and the defacement of the Kuran, unlike Pakistan, where mobs lynch people for suspected defacement of the Kuran, which is a habit taken from the Jews, who preserved every written piece of paper because it might be that the writing included passages from the Pentateuch, in India, people are liable to prosecution. Not to murder by mob action. There is a section which deals with blasphemy, a section that I personally wish had been deleted by amendment to the Constitution, but which has NOT been deleted.



> Cow is the equivalent of holy object/being in minds of many Hindus.



And it is not in the minds of many other Hindus. Who are you to insist on thrusting your sentiments on all Hindus?



> Since we don't allow defacing Quran in India due to the little law about hurting religious sentiment we similarly dont allow killing of cow or consumtion or sale thereof in many parts of India but not all.



Because there are specific laws, not because of any effort to bring about any ridiculous equation of the prejudices of different religious beliefs.



> How is burning or defacing a book is banned but not killing of a similarly significant being?



Very simple. Where the law bans burning or defacing a book, any book, any scripture, on the grounds that it may hurt the sentiments of the people professing the religion of which that book is an integral scriptural part, burning or defacing a book is a crime.

Where the law bans production of beef, production of beef is banned, but not selling or preparation or consumption of beef. And similarly for selling, and for preparation, and for consumption; there is no blanket ban, only specific bans and only legal as bans in the states where such laws have been passed. 

Try to get this straight: it is the Constitution that decides what is law and what is not, what is legal and what is illegal. Not you, not I, not any mob in the street.



> The point is that we protect minority rights and sentiments be it in Kashmir or Haryana. However when Majority and minority rights directly conflict as in the case of beef consumption in Kashmir where in majority insists on it as opposed to no one sane insisting on burning Quran in Haryana we have problem. By virtue of democratic principles majority should prevail.



No. 

Minorities are specifically protected in properly organised democracies. There is no majoritarianism inherent in democracy, otherwise they would lack safeguards for the minorities. 



> The point i am trying to make which is not exclusive to the above three points but all the same indicated by them is that in Kashmiri mind the demands are legitimate and denial of these demands allows them to claim detachment from the republic of India on the basis of infringement of their rights.



Yes. And no. 

It allows them to claim a desire for detachment.

It DOES NOT allow them to claim detachment.

There is a difference. Spend time to understand it. 

*



In such a scenario choice india faces is binary.

Click to expand...


BALLS.
*
India's choices are not restricted due to any section of citizen exercising their freedom of speech. That is a nightmare for the closet fascist, which many Hindu majoritarians tend to be. Mainly because they lack self-confidence.



> Regards



Best Wishes. And many happy returns of the day.

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## Windjammer

Some questions are being raised as how many soldiers actually were killed, since there seem to be more than 17 coffins being shown in pictures posted on various sites.

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## Joe Shearer

salarsikander said:


> What really intrigues me is that How people are just denying the fact that the unrest was going on for more than a month, dozens killed, many more injured, blinded. This is the result of Failed and ill-conceived policies of India and successive govt to address the real issue. No tangible effort for development for this volatile region has taken place since last 60 years or so. So it is very natural for them to pick up arm and fight against the state.
> 
> Secondly, The trend of Indian muslims in India doesn't not help much either, most of them are below the basic tax net.
> 
> Now the question is why would Pakistan at such fragile moment do something so stupid ? Shoot itself in foot. When there is already an upcoming UN meeting, Pulling out such stunt would, first of all, Isolate Pakistan and its case for Kashmir it will in fact give boost To india's stance on Kashmir(Crackdown). So I don't find any reason why they would do it (Pakistan)
> 
> Getting to politics side, BJP is having hard time here. . The over sensationalism they created and much hyped hyper nationalism is taking over its toll in Indian society. The 'ACHE DIn' term that was used during camping days is actually taking them to buray din. The Strategic alignment towards US and losing Russia their all time friend who has always helped them out during troubling times is a proof of ill-conceived policies that are biting BJP hard. They have failed to rein in Kashmir grievances peacefully and the only thing to deflect its attention from real issue was to pull such stunt. Which no doubt will cost BJP much more than anticipated. All theses cow vigilantes which have become norm in India during BJP time were something unheard of before.
> 
> There is a strong wake up call from Indian section of society to carry out cross-border attack on Pakistan. OF c no such
> direct attack would take place, because there is simply no reason to Pakistan BJP is well aware of that.
> 
> Tolerance level have obviously gone down much since BJP came into power. The Pathankot incident was nothing but local homegrown terrorist attack,a already proven and dismissed by BJP officials.
> 
> TBH Pakistan has nothing to gain from such attacks, which will only bring more humiliation, boycott and isolation



I do not want to go into detail because I have just written a post severely critical of a member whom I personally like, and a post, therefore, that has disturbed me substantially. 

But in brief, there is a contrary case, a perverted one, for arguing that Pakistan has in the past used incidents of terror like this one to assert to the world that there is a dispute, as otherwise the world seems to slide into the habit of thinking that there is in fact none; to assert to the world that the dispute has violence implanted within it, and is therefore a hazard for the world at large, and something that the world at large therefore needs to address without further delay; carrying this theme even further, to assert that this violence might lead to a confrontation between two nuclear powers, and therefore there is a direct threat to the safety and security of the world at large, and therefore needs to be mediated by the world quickly.

In this view, there are sections of the Pakistani nation that do not understand that such attacks bring humiliation, boycott and isolation, but fondly live in their own world of illusion. 

The view cannot be dismissed out of hand. Even on PDF, there are primitive minds that inform us Indian members that there is such a thing as the Ghazwa e Hind and that this will be carried out at some time. There is no point in saying that such views belong to young and immature members who are carried away by the exhilaration of being able to say that in anonymity on the 'Net what they cannot say in real life on the street; if young members have such views, and such views are not floating in the air like so many viruses, these views must be known and must have been repeated and discussed ad nauseam in other circles as well. 

There is a seamy side to Pakistan. There is a seamy side to India. It is necessary for both sets of citizens to acknowledge this . _Is hamaam mein sab nange hain._

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## SQ8

Gentlemen, let me repeat what I put on another thread. For all intents and purposes; PDF official policy is to censure the term occupied Kashmir when in reference to Pakistan. Attempts to bypass this to try and push a jibe will only lead to warnings regardless of how good or how pitiful you are. .

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## Menace2Society

India has most defenitely lost Kashmir. This is pure rejection of Indian rule. Indians pack your bags and go back to Kerala


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## Joe Shearer

Menace2Society said:


> India has most defenitely lost Kashmir. This is pure rejection of Indian rule. Indians pack your bags and go back to Kerala



I find that a personally offensive statement.


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## deckingraj

notorious_eagle said:


> An independent investigation team lead by UN Experts should be drafted to find out what happened.


Do you do the same when attack in Pakistan are blamed on India?? It is obviously a good statement to make however not practical...because it validates Pakistan's agenda...i.e. Internationalizing the kashmir issue...how on this earth it would be acceptable to Indians??

A start was made in Pathankot where under all the criticism Modi govt. allowed Pakistan investigation team to visit our base..but then fucking an initiative left right and center is an art that South Asia master's in....


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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> But in brief, there is a contrary case, a perverted one, for arguing that Pakistan has in the past used incidents of terror like this one to assert to the world that there is a dispute,


Hi, 

It doesn't really add up Pakistan shooting on its own foot to show the world of dispute?
But then again there is this 'Dispute' or genuine 'Grief' found in general population that erupts from time to time, So naturally there is no need for Pakistan to do anything or pull such stunt, It barely has resources to afford 8 f-16s. Imagine Us carrying out such high scale attacks without any inside help is laughable. And then again one has to look at series and chain of events of what is happening around the situation. The KAshmir unrest has been going on for more than two months
( correct me if I am mistaken) Enough blood has been shed. So this attack was result of that,. What surprise me even more is the fact that, when LEA are aware of such unrest why not security measure were taken in place ? How come a region HQ of infantry division was overtaken by 4 rag tag terrorists. THis just goes on to show impotency of the agencies.

As I have said before thing will go worse. The current political status quo is only adding fuel o the fire. You can see the deliberate desecration of sacred indian flag by mehbooba. It was no mere coincidence. There are grievances that needs to be addressed, and you cannot address them through force of barrel of gun. No tangible development has taken place in valley for the past 60 years. So it is very natural that such friction will erupt at a point of time.

It will be very foolish to suggest that when Pakistan has case to highlight the crackdown of Indian security agencies in Kashmir to world, it will carry out terror attack to justify india's stance on Kashmir. This will reinforce Indian position and weaken Pakistan's position not to mention the boycott and sanction it will bring. We have seen similar attacks as well (staged) how after Pathankot all the barrels of gun were pointed at Pakistan and then later BJP themselves admitted Pakistan was not at fault here. The Ganja hijacking which was landed in LAhore was very well planned drama by We know who. Plus the recent confession of some Indian security agency guy of fake encounters and attacks
( I can't seem to recall his name) 

You must know incident like this brings whole nation together and for a good while the whole nation becomes ignorants of the reality, thats how politics is played. _BJP is having hard time delivering their promises _

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## deckingraj

notorious_eagle said:


> Thank You Sir and good to see you here.
> 
> I can tell you the highest echelons of Pakistan's General Staff are convinced that Indian elements are actively supporting Baloch Separatist Groups. Talal Bugti traveled to Switzerland on an Indian passport under a false name, and many of the BRA Officers interrogated have confessed that they received money and weapons from Indian agents in Afghanistan. I could accept that one BRA Officer might have just placated India under intense interrogation just to save his skin, but not multiple BRA Officers.
> 
> If you ask me personally, it's payback for support to Kashmiri Separatist Elements. With Modi taking over and Ajit Dovgal, activities seem to have been accelerated. Not to mention, CPEC and other developmental projects in Balochistan make this too big of a juicy Geo-Political target. *The last thing Indian Strategic Planners would want is massive Chinese presence in Balochistan and PLAN Warships docking in Ormara, Gwadar.*



Geo-politics may seem like that however in reality it doesn't deal in binaries....Yes Indian strategic planners will never want Chinese warships docking in Gwadar however do you think Chinese strategic planners would want to push India to such a corner that it becomes an open adversary? Would that be in China's interest? Answer is NO...so there will be some push and pull here and there however equilibrium wont be changed...atleast not in foreseeable future...


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## salarsikander

deckingraj said:


> Do you do the same when attack in Pakistan are blamed on India?? It is obviously a good statement to make however not practical...because it validates Pakistan's agenda...i.e. Internationalizing the kashmir issue...how on this earth it would be acceptable to Indians??
> 
> A start was made in Pathankot where under all the criticism Modi govt. allowed Pakistan investigation team to visit our base..but then fucking an initiative left right and center is an art that South Asia master's in....


What do you mean internationalize?
Do you thing you can hide the atrocities ? Brush them away in carpet? We are living in electronic age everything is out. 

The fact that India chooses to put all the blame on Pakistan while ignoring the reality of local home grown separatists, is actually helping the cause of Kashmiris

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## Joe Shearer

Fair enough. Let's take a look at the situation in detail. You have posed some reasonable propositions, so let us go through those in detail.



salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> It doesn't really add up Pakistan shooting on its own foot to show the world of dispute?



As I said, that is how it looks from the point of view of one type of Pakistani, your type, which is a logical, rational type, just like its counterparts in very many countries around the world (India has a few, too).

Perhaps you might like to consider the existence of another type, that is so obsessed by its own very warped view of the world that it cannot sense being out of step with rationality. This is the type that first demanded that numbers do not matter - not so irrational, after all, and justifiable in terms of a rejection of majoritarianism, the biggest problem with a democracy, as @Spectre will tell you (in reverse). But watch how that mind-set progressed. It went on to insisting on a minority-oriented gerrymandering (that term is used here in its precise sense), creating a majority for the minority in certain parts of a whole. It then sought parity (here we go again) for those artificially created parts with the original from which it was carved out. 

While this is completely licit in an abstract sense, in the sense that two sovereign entities are in fact precisely equal, in that both are sovereign, and owe no allegiance to each other or to any other sovereign entity, it is not a practical solution if tested. 

IF TESTED. 

And that is what Pakistan did: it tested parity at every stage - in Kashmir, in 1947-48, in the Rann of Kutch, in 1965, in summer; in Kashmir, again, through the same community that failed it earlier, then in Jammu, then in the Punjab; in 1999, the most naked example of Pakistani military irresponsibility, and the most diminishing episode of all, in 2002, during the confrontation through most of a year of two heavily armed behemoths; and now, in 2016.

Two sovereign entities are not in practice exactly the same; the point being easily understood in terms of a reference to China and Outer Mongolia. Or between Russia on the one hand, and Estonia, or Latvia, or Lithuania, on the other. At the outset, due to an intelligent alliance with a super-power hungry for allies in this part of the world, Pakistan gained parity due to superior weapons and improved organisation. Very rapidly, this salience vanished, and each bruising encounter has brought an indication of significant and sustained of the balance of power.

Now, precisely because of this increasing gap, one of the two disputants feels all the more greatly obliged to seek parity with its interlocutor. The pages of PDF are filled with the froth generated by those who continue to seek parity.

The point I am coming to is that this relatively homogenous nation with an inbuilt urge to seek parity with its larger neighbour IS NOT BEST PLACED TO VIEW ITSELF AS THE WORLD VIEWS IT.



> But then again there is this 'Dispute' or genuine 'Grief' found in general population that erupts from time to time, So naturally there is no need for Pakistan to do anything or pull such stunt, It barely has resources to afford 8 f-16s. Imagine Us carrying out such high scale attacks without any inside help is laughable. And then again one has to look at series and chain of events of what is happening around the situation. The KAshmir unrest has been going on for more than two months
> ( correct me if I am mistaken) Enough blood has been shed. So this attack was result of that,. What surprise me even more is the fact that, when LEA are aware of such unrest why not security measure were taken in place ? How come a region HQ of infantry division was overtaken by 4 rag tag terrorists. THis just goes on to show impotency of the agencies.
> 
> As I have said before thing will go worse. The current political status quo is only adding fuel o the fire. You can see the deliberate desecration of sacred indian flag by mehbooba. It was no mere coincidence. There are grievances that needs to be addressed, and you cannot address them through force of barrel of gun. No tangible development has taken place in valley for the past 60 years. So it is very natural that such friction will erupt at a point of time.
> 
> It will be very foolish to suggest that when Pakistan has case to highlight the crackdown of Indian security agencies in Kashmir to world, it will carry out terror attack to justify india's stance on Kashmir. This will reinforce Indian position and weaken Pakistan's position not to mention the boycott and sanction it will bring. We have seen similar attacks as well (staged) how after Pathankot all the barrels of gun were pointed at Pakistan and then later BJP themselves admitted Pakistan was not at fault here. The Ganja hijacking which was landed in LAhore was very well planned drama by We know who. Plus the recent confession of some Indian security agency guy of fake encounters and attacks
> ( I can't seem to recall his name)
> 
> You must know incident like this brings whole nation together and for a good while the whole nation becomes ignorants of the reality, thats how politics is played. _BJP is having hard time delivering their promises _


----------



## Menace2Society

Joe Shearer said:


> Perhaps you might like to consider the existence of another type, that is so obsessed by its own very warped view of the world that it cannot sense being out of step with rationality. This is the type that first demanded that numbers do not matter - not so irrational, after all, and justifiable in terms of a rejection of majoritarianism, the biggest problem with a democracy, as @Spectre will tell you (in reverse). But watch how that mind-set progressed. It went on to insisting on a minority-oriented gerrymandering (that term is used here in its precise sense), creating a majority for the minority in certain parts of a whole. It then sought parity (here we go again) for those artificially created parts with the original from which it was carved out.



Absolutely no idea what you are garbling about. Do Indians suffer from amnesia? Indian soldiers murdered and raped Kashmiri children for over 60 years. In the 60/70s Indian soldiers would creep into the homes of Kashmiris at night and rape their women.

Any reasonably intelligent person would accept their wrong doings and do what it can to put right what is wronged. But no oh no, Indians won't do that. They will become even aggressive.

Reality is Kashmiris reject Indian rule and there is nothing India can do to reverse this because the damage has been done.



Joe Shearer said:


> Fair enough. Let's take a look at the situation in detail. You have posed some reasonable propositions, so let us go through those in detail.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, that is how it looks from the point of view of one type of Pakistani, your type, which is a logical, rational type, just like its counterparts in very many countries around the world (India has a few, too).
> 
> Perhaps you might like to consider the existence of another type, that is so obsessed by its own very warped view of the world that it cannot sense being out of step with rationality. This is the type that first demanded that numbers do not matter - not so irrational, after all, and justifiable in terms of a rejection of majoritarianism, the biggest problem with a democracy, as @Spectre will tell you (in reverse). But watch how that mind-set progressed. It went on to insisting on a minority-oriented gerrymandering (that term is used here in its precise sense), creating a majority for the minority in certain parts of a whole. It then sought parity (here we go again) for those artificially created parts with the original from which it was carved out.
> 
> While this is completely licit in an abstract sense, in the sense that two sovereign entities are in fact precisely equal, in that both are sovereign, and owe no allegiance to each other or to any other sovereign entity, it is not a practical solution if tested.
> 
> IF TESTED.
> 
> And that is what Pakistan did: it tested parity at every stage - in Kashmir, in 1947-48, in the Rann of Kutch, in 1965, in summer; in Kashmir, again, through the same community that failed it earlier, then in Jammu, then in the Punjab; in 1999, the most naked example of Pakistani military irresponsibility, and the most diminishing episode of all, in 2002, during the confrontation through most of a year of two heavily armed behemoths; and now, in 2016.
> 
> Two sovereign entities are not in practice exactly the same; the point being easily understood in terms of a reference to China and Outer Mongolia. Or between Russia on the one hand, and Estonia, or Latvia, or Lithuania, on the other. At the outset, due to an intelligent alliance with a super-power hungry for allies in this part of the world, Pakistan gained parity due to superior weapons and improved organisation. Very rapidly, this salience vanished, and each bruising encounter has brought an indication of significant and sustained of the balance of power.
> 
> Now, precisely because of this increasing gap, one of the two disputants feels all the more greatly obliged to seek parity with its interlocutor. The pages of PDF are filled with the froth generated by those who continue to seek parity.
> 
> The point I am coming to is that this relatively homogenous nation with an inbuilt urge to seek parity with its larger neighbour IS NOT BEST PLACED TO VIEW ITSELF AS THE WORLD VIEWS IT.



You can't give me a negative rating just because I don't agree with garbling mess of a post

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## Joe Shearer

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> It doesn't really add up Pakistan shooting on its own foot to show the world of dispute?





> But then again there is this 'Dispute' or genuine 'Grief' found in general population that erupts from time to time, So naturally there is no need for Pakistan to do anything or pull such stunt, It barely has resources to afford 8 f-16s.



Not the best of all examples.

An F-16 Block 60 would cost the UAE $200 million each.

How much would it cost to

Publicise the options to play the mujahid in Kashmir
Recruit the candidate
Train the candidate
Arm the candidate
Send him off on a one-way journey
There are very, very many individuals trainable for infiltrated terrorist activities for the price of one F-16.



> Imagine Us carrying out such high scale attacks without any inside help is laughable. And then again one has to look at series and chain of events of what is happening around the situation. The KAshmir unrest has been going on for more than two months
> ( correct me if I am mistaken) Enough blood has been shed. So this attack was result of that,. What surprise me even more is the fact that, when LEA are aware of such unrest why not security measure were taken in place ? How come a region HQ of infantry division was overtaken by 4 rag tag terrorists. THis just goes on to show impotency of the agencies.
> 
> As I have said before thing will go worse. The current political status quo is only adding fuel o the fire. You can see the deliberate desecration of sacred indian flag by mehbooba. It was no mere coincidence. There are grievances that needs to be addressed, and you cannot address them through force of barrel of gun. No tangible development has taken place in valley for the past 60 years. So it is very natural that such friction will erupt at a point of time.
> 
> It will be very foolish to suggest that when Pakistan has case to highlight the crackdown of Indian security agencies in Kashmir to world, it will carry out terror attack to justify india's stance on Kashmir. This will reinforce Indian position and weaken Pakistan's position not to mention the boycott and sanction it will bring. We have seen similar attacks as well (staged) how after Pathankot all the barrels of gun were pointed at Pakistan and then later BJP themselves admitted Pakistan was not at fault here. The Ganja hijacking which was landed in LAhore was very well planned drama by We know who. Plus the recent confession of some Indian security agency guy of fake encounters and attacks
> ( I can't seem to recall his name)
> 
> You must know incident like this brings whole nation together and for a good while the whole nation becomes ignorants of the reality, thats how politics is played. _BJP is having hard time delivering their promises _





Menace2Society said:


> Absolutely no idea what you are garbling about. Do Indians suffer from amnesia? Indian soldiers murdered and raped Kashmiri children for over 60 years. In the 60/70s Indian soldiers would creep into the homes of Kashmiris at night and rape their women.
> 
> Any reasonably intelligent person would accept their wrong doings and do what it can to put right what is wronged. But no oh no, Indians won't do that. They will become even aggressive.
> 
> Reality is Kashmiris reject Indian rule and there is nothing India can do to reverse this because the damage has been done.
> 
> You can't give me a negative rating just because I don't agree with garbling mess of a post



Of course I can't. Quite right.

You got the negative rating because of two unacceptable sentences relating to Indian soldiers.


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## deckingraj

Look...i am all for debate as i strongly believe that is the way to go, however please do grasp the whole context before you hit the reply button...Now let me try to clarify....



salarsikander said:


> *What do you mean internationalize?*


That kashmir is not a bilateral issue b/w India and Pakistan and international community needs to step in...Such terror incidents gives enough fodder to Pak's effort of showing the world how imminent nuclear war is in South Asia should they don't intervene...What you or I believe about Kashmir is irrelevant....the relevance is what International community thinks about it...India for obvious reason want's to deny that.....Now here are some hard core facts....

If at all we(you and us) decide to sit on negotiating table then Pak is bound to loose ground should there be no international representation on negotiating table...why?? because all the cards are in our hand....the current status quo favors us...The only cards you may have on negotiating table would be either the nut heads(read terrorists) or some powerful international friends...International community has so far towed India's stand....so the only irritant for us are these pigs...rest my friends is all usual India-Pakistan load of bull sh1t....



> Do you thing you can hide the atrocities ? Brush them away in carpet? We are living in electronic age everything is out.The fact that India chooses to put all the blame on Pakistan while ignoring the reality of local home grown separatists, is actually helping the cause of Kashmiris


Such lines emotionally sounds pretty good however lacks the substance...While we say it's all Pakistan...you say its all internal ...reality might be somewhere in b/w....truth is nobody(read international community) gives a fukc about either of those...


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## Menace2Society

Joe Shearer said:


> Of course I can't. Quite right.
> 
> You got the negative rating because of two unacceptable sentences relating to Indian soldiers.



They are called facts. You can't hide from it. I hope India as a collective repent for their misdeeds and then South Asia will have peace.


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## Joe Shearer

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> It doesn't really add up Pakistan shooting on its own foot to show the world of dispute?
> But then again there is this 'Dispute' or genuine 'Grief' found in general population that erupts from time to time, So naturally there is no need for Pakistan to do anything or pull such stunt, It barely has resources to afford 8 f-16s.





> Imagine Us carrying out such high scale attacks without any inside help is laughable. And then again one has to look at series and chain of events of what is happening around the situation. The KAshmir unrest has been going on for more than two months
> ( correct me if I am mistaken) Enough blood has been shed. So this attack was result of that,.



You have a point. 

There was obviously inside help. That is clear from the way the map was provided, the map found annotated on the killed terrorists, on the clear idea of where to get over the barriers, on the recognition of the fuel dump within the camp, and on the swift attack with incendiary grenades on the fuel tanks.

However, it is not clear, and it is nothing more than a possibility that the present attack was due to present unrest and suppression of that unrest.

The history of infiltrating armed terrorists into Kashmir is very long, and dates back, in one reckoning, to the time of General Zia. There is continuity between that and this attack. Unless the perpetrators were Kashmiri, and not many Kashmiris speak Pushto, this attack was not due to the present unrest, this was part of a very long series.



> What surprise me even more is the fact that, when LEA are aware of such unrest why not security measure were taken in place ? How come a region HQ of infantry division was overtaken by 4 rag tag terrorists. THis just goes on to show impotency of the agencies.
> 
> As I have said before thing will go worse. The current political status quo is only adding fuel o the fire. You can see the deliberate desecration of sacred indian flag by mehbooba. It was no mere coincidence. There are grievances that needs to be addressed, and you cannot address them through force of barrel of gun. No tangible development has taken place in valley for the past 60 years. So it is very natural that such friction will erupt at a point of time.
> 
> It will be very foolish to suggest that when Pakistan has case to highlight the crackdown of Indian security agencies in Kashmir to world, it will carry out terror attack to justify india's stance on Kashmir. This will reinforce Indian position and weaken Pakistan's position not to mention the boycott and sanction it will bring. We have seen similar attacks as well (staged) how after Pathankot all the barrels of gun were pointed at Pakistan and then later BJP themselves admitted Pakistan was not at fault here. The Ganja hijacking which was landed in LAhore was very well planned drama by We know who. Plus the recent confession of some Indian security agency guy of fake encounters and attacks
> ( I can't seem to recall his name)
> 
> You must know incident like this brings whole nation together and for a good while the whole nation becomes ignorants of the reality, thats how politics is played. _BJP is having hard time delivering their promises _





Menace2Society said:


> They are called facts. You can't hide from it. I hope India as a collective repent for their misdeeds and then South Asia will have peace.



These are called fictions, put about by hostile elements that have no other way to vent their frustration and spleen.


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## Menace2Society

Joe Shearer said:


> These are called fictions, put about by hostile elements that have no other way to vent their frustration and spleen.



 Collective amnesia most definitely. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. On your conscience not mine.


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## salarsikander

deckingraj said:


> Look...i am all for debate as i strongly believe that is the way to go, however please do grasp the whole context before you hit the reply button...Now let me try to clarify....
> 
> 
> That kashmir is not a bilateral issue b/w India and Pakistan and international community needs to step in...Such terror incidents gives enough fodder to Pak's effort of showing the world how imminent nuclear war is in South Asia should they don't intervene...What you or I believe about Kashmir is irrelevant....the relevance is what International community thinks about it...India for obvious reason want's to deny that.....Now here are some hard core facts....
> 
> If at all we(you and us) decide to sit on negotiating table then Pak is bound to loose ground should there be no international representation on negotiating table...why?? because all the cards are in our hand....the current status quo favors us...The only cards you may have on negotiating table would be either the nut heads(read terrorists) or some powerful international friends...International community has so far towed India's stand....so the only irritant for us are these pigs...rest my friends is all usual India-Pakistan load of bull sh1t....
> 
> 
> Such lines emotionally sounds pretty good however lacks the substance...While we say it's all Pakistan...you say its all internal ...reality might be somewhere in b/w....truth is nobody(read international community) gives a fukc about either of those...


You know what caused east pakistan to break away from us ? @Joe Shearer


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## Joe Shearer

Menace2Society said:


> Collective amnesia most definitely. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. On your conscience not mine.



Only one of me, so not collective, just to correct your grammar for a change rather than your history or your politics. 
Both equally boring,,,,,,,



salarsikander said:


> You know what caused east pakistan to break away from us ? @Joe Shearer



Yes, of course. 

Other detailed responses tomorrow,,,,


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## salarsikander

Joe Shearer said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> Other detailed responses tomorrow,,,,


Perfect I will remind you tomorrow.


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## notorious_eagle

deckingraj said:


> Do you do the same when attack in Pakistan are blamed on India?? It is obviously a good statement to make however not practical...because it validates Pakistan's agenda...i.e. Internationalizing the kashmir issue...how on this earth it would be acceptable to Indians??
> 
> A start was made in Pathankot where under all the criticism Modi govt. allowed Pakistan investigation team to visit our base..but then fucking an initiative left right and center is an art that South Asia master's in....



Than how do we know who did it? Between Pakistan and India, its Pakistan's interests that have been damaged after these attacks. Not to sound crude, loss of 17 soldiers for a behemoth such as the Indian Army is not even a drop in the bucket. In fact, loss of 1000 soldiers would not even scratch India's Fighting Capabilities. I know i am sounding very harsh but that's the truth. Killing these 17 soldiers achieves nothing for Pakistan. We are not Vampires here, that thrive on the blood of Indian soldiers. If we really wanted to do some damage, something like the 2008 Mumbai Attacks would have made a much bigger impact. 



deckingraj said:


> Geo-politics may seem like that however in reality it doesn't deal in binaries....Yes Indian strategic planners will never want Chinese warships docking in Gwadar however do you think Chinese strategic planners would want to push India to such a corner that it becomes an open adversary? Would that be in China's interest? Answer is NO...so there will be some push and pull here and there however equilibrium wont be changed...atleast not in foreseeable future...



News Flash

India and China are adversaries.

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## The Eagle

Dazzler said:


> So this is your proof,
> 
> see these, according to your analogy, you admit that your country is instigating terrorism in pakistan right?



Uri recovered weapons as claimed.... shown by IA through media...






and the butt-stock is ... along with with sight setting, chamber line etc

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## Hellfire

notorious_eagle said:


> Than how do we know who did it? Between Pakistan and India, its Pakistan's interests that have been damaged after these attacks.



Not exactly.

I had actually planned to take a leave of this forum which has become a war zone due to Call of Duty trained warriors who know naught and have started posting a whole plethora of nonsense which actually makes one go crazy trying to find something sensible, but your post here, as usual, does cause one to reply, so my reply in multiple quotes.

The interests of Pakistan are not damaged.

I will give you a very good reason. What more adds to the perspective as required to be projected by Pakistan than the mass street protests and angry "Kashmiris" 'loosing patience' and attacking Indian army out of frustration? It will exactly project that there is an active rebellion by local population, something we can expect to see in NS' address to UNGA (aka repeat of 1965 strategy with the hope of substantial support from Saudi Arabia and others in form of arms and funding as being done in Syria; the oppressive regime suppressing its people)

The basic fault in Indian approach has been the political ineptitude that has been displayed by the PDP-BJP government in the state (continuing as I type), wherein they have failed to effectively tackle the violence on streets and have resorted to measures that have merely aggravated the situation for over two months now, leading even a normally quiet Army Commander Northern Command to make a political statement and tell the successive governments in J&K, first the Omar Abdullah government and then the present dispensation to concentrate on governance and to deliver on that at grassroots.

While Omar Abdullah is right that India needs to look at itself and not at Pakistan for the current troubles and this is what I believe too as any adversary would be dumb not to use the weakness of their adversary to keep it off-balance, one needs to look at the role played by his own party and his own family in mismanaging the affairs of the state till date. That he, as the incumbent CM of J&K, did not do anything to provide for governance at a ground level, is an open fact with the then Northern Army Commander Lt Gen KT Parnaik, refusing to toe political line of withdrawal of the AFSPA as was being proposed by Chidambaram and Omar Abdullah in the latter's last few months of governance. A populist move, that was meant to try and get separatist votes and hope to overturn the lack of governance and abject failure of the State Government under his leadership. There was no issue of AFSPA as Indian Army was already out of major cities and limited in its role inside the cities.




notorious_eagle said:


> *Not to sound crude, loss of 17 soldiers for a behemoth such as the Indian Army is not even a drop in the bucket.* In fact, loss of 1000 soldiers would not even scratch India's Fighting Capabilities. I know i am sounding very harsh but that's the truth. Killing these 17 soldiers achieves nothing for Pakistan. We are not Vampires here, that thrive on the blood of Indian soldiers. If we really wanted to do some damage, something like the 2008 Mumbai Attacks would have made a much bigger impact



As you gave me the example of a fine colonel who told you about the CI operations in your western provinces and role of RAW in it and I categorically replied that TTP is not our baby, let me extrapolate that to myself and give you the straight answer as someone who has a little bit of idea of the CI operations and the situation on our side.

Firstly, your bold part, that is something I have said so myself, much to chagrin of two Indian members who probably have no idea of military operations (I am assuming here of course) and of the larger constraints that the forces of both sides operate under, irrespective of the fanboy chest beating we see here. I totally agree with you here. Hence, my contention that we need to look at ourselves and strengthen own procedures and take action to remedy the mistakes with suitable consequences of those who were responsible for the lapses. @Sarge gave quite broad and very encompassing suggestions, and I am sure he speaks out of his own experiences on the other side of the border, and I agree to parts of it at delayed time periods as such a large scale purge of the guilty security officials will create a temporary vacuum in the existing grid due to obvious reasons.

Now for the remainder. There is, at no time, anyone saying that GoP is involved. Leave aside the Indian Hysteria Media. I don't listen to it, I don't care to either. I will tell you exactly what we are saying. The line is 'elements within your set up'. Even if they are non-state actors it is your duty as the sovereign power to hunt them down. Period.

As for a false flag, which many people here are trumpeting after getting affected by few fans of *Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising*, I, as someone who wanted to conduct a false flag terror attack in order to get the reasons to seek a confrontation with the neighbouring nation, would have struck some place like Hyderabad, Bangalore or deeper, and given it a nice Kashmiri twist and put up LeT or JeM there.

That would have left Modi with no alternative but to go to war in the backdrop of Mumbai attack. Here, the government can still avoid going to war as the casualties are military casualties and there will be some public anger ad a covert retaliatory strike which will become public and all will be forgotten aka North East ambush type.

So, no @notorious_eagle neither is this a false flag and nor is it any other such type of assault other than that to augment the case at UN with a lame duck US president sitting in office and an effort to put more pressure so that intractable differences can crop up and the whole process of normalisation of relations can be derailed. 

I am not saying it was done with blessings of GoP. But knowing how the launch pads operate in the LC environment, I can assure you, someone, somewhere, is involved in your official apparatus.

Thanks

@nair The leave was short!

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## Arsalan

WAJsal said:


> Finish by saying, Kashmiris are also human, they deserve some symapthy from Indian population too. It's sad that they soldiers had to die, but who else suffers the most damage?
> 
> *I didn't see any Indian member condemning this...*
> 
> Thank you all, continue and no trolling please.....


You didnt see any Indian member condemning?
I can show you the Indian members stating that "they are not concerned about what happens in India" it is not a single person but i have been given this reply from MANY so you should not be surprised if you do not see any Indian members condemning this killing or the ones before this!

I was having a chat with @Joe Shearer yesterday and what we can see if how both sides had there fair share of idiots, some of them in key positions unfortunately. The public is emotional bunch but i wont blame them for what they are saying and doing right now. It is there leaders, the politicians and mot importantly the media, the fking irresponsible media that is governing what the general public is saying of feeling.

First, the public was pushed itself into the corner by all that chest thumping and boasting, the ego was blown out of proportion. It was a false sense of grandeur that was created by the gov. and fuel was added to the fire by the media. now this happened!! All those people to whom you have been telling that it is just 5% of people in Kashmir that are cause the problem and how Pakistan is non issue now for a power like India and other ego boasting stuff like that, now their ego have been bruised and now they will ask for revenge. They have been made to believe that everything wrong is just on part of Pakistan and that India is so supreme that it can handle Pakistan very well, now they ask why the delay?? In short, the government have pushed itself into the corner where the are not in a position to take any harsh action (because there still are some sensible minds at work who understand what despite the Indian military might a war is NOT the way forward and who do realize that there wont be any winners this time) but they cannot just ignore all the chants and demands of the public. Media acting as irresponsibly as it ALWAYS does (both Pakistani and Indian) is doing NOTHING but adding fuel to the fire.

I hope that in the end those few sane minds will be enough to keep the situation under control but trust me, they wont be getting ANY help from there media and on our part, talking about our mistakes, they wont be getting ANY HELP from us either!! This is our part in the stupidity!!



Dazzler said:


> Since your politicians and media are always quick throw the blame, they should provide workable intelligence and concrete evidence first. I am afraid, you lack both.
> 
> Pathankot is still a test case to your arrogance and blatant stubbornness. I dont see anything constructive coming of this either.


There wont be ANY thing coming out because there isnt any. It is just like our people say "jo krwa raha ha amreka krwa raha ha" Despite our own stupid follies and mistakes we also put blame on quite a few things wrongfully on Americans. They same have always happened in case of India.

As i have repeatedly said, there is absolutely no evidence to indicated Pakistan's involvement presented so far and still it just took a couple of hours for the Indian media to uncovers Pakistan's hand behind all this!! Had the security forces been half this efficient the attack wont have happened!

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## nair

hellfire said:


> @nair The leave was short!



Yeah i can see that..... I was about to ask you about the leave.....Welcome back any way.....too much of sh!t to respond.....



Arsalan said:


> The public is emotional bunch but i wont blame them for what they are saying and doing right now. It is there leaders, the politicians and mot importantly the media, the fking irresponsible media that is governing what the general public is saying of feeling.



If i could add, the retired generals and the so called "Defense Analysts" who comes to this media shows soap opera's if i may call them....... Public (read common man) would listen to these retired generals and analysts and start creating their own opinion...... last 2 days there is war in every channel, some of them are fighting it one sided (ie only indian panelists) and some are two way....... My wife is happy these days, i hardly watch news these days as it gives me headache and she can concentrate on prog which both of us can watch.....

These idiots knows the ground realities pretty well, and they knows the pros and cons of every suggestion they make.... In spite of that they give ideas which can lead in to a nuclear war......

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Yeah i can see that..... I was about to ask you about the leave.....Welcome back any way.....too much of sh!t to respond.....



I actually got mad seeing people talk of war and killing like it is a joke.Notorious Eagle is anything but notorious and he had posted on this thread, something he does not do, so I had to reply to him. 

Mistakes from our side needs to be corrected yesterday. The civil administration has to step up and act decisively to assuage the feelings on the street and leave the army to deal with what has happened. Unfortunately, not seeing it.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> I actually got mad seeing people talk of war and killing like it is a joke.Notorious Eagle is anything but notorious and he had posted on this thread, something he does not do, so I had to reply to him. Sense has to be brought back in.
> 
> Mistakes from our side needs to be corrected yesterday. The civil administration has to step up and act decisively to assuage the feelings on the street and leave the army to deal with what has happened. Unfortunately, not seeing it.



We had attacks before, but some how this time every thread is a troll fest, and every poster (including few title holders) is enjoying their time..... Idiots doesnt know the cost of a war, as they assume that they wont be affected, Key board warriors what.....

Lol i am safe by the way.... Sitting far from the action on a mountain

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## Stephen Cohen

hellfire said:


> I am not saying it was done with blessings of GoP. But knowing how the launch pads operate in the LC environment, I can assure you, someone, somewhere, is involved in your official apparatus.



@notorious_eagle @hellfire @Arsalan

There was a TV progrram on Pakistan Chanels called Mahaz where The URI sector was shown

The Colonel explains the security arrangements on PAKISTANI side of the LOC

He clearly tells about Mines which have been planted

Now for any group to come in India they must be told of the Waypoints in order to
prevent them from stepping on those Mines

This explains the official HELP to these infiltrators


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## nair

Stephen Cohen said:


> @notorious_eagle @hellfire @Arsalan
> 
> There was a TV progrram on Pakistan Chanels called Mahaz where The URI sector was shown
> 
> The Colonel explains the security arrangements on PAKISTANI side of the LOC
> 
> He clearly tells about Mines which have been planted
> 
> Now for any group to come in India they must be told of the Waypoints in order to
> prevent hem from stepping on those Mines
> 
> This explains the official HELP to these infiltrators



Loc has one of the toughest terrains for any border across the world, and it is not possible to cover or block infiltration by what ever means you try @hellfire explained yesterday how these guys crowl to avoid detection......
Now mines???? Why these mines are laid?? not to stop infiltration but to stop indian forces crossing...... and one cannot mine the entire border for that matter........

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## Stephen Cohen

nair said:


> Now mines???? Why these mines are laid?? not to stop infiltration but to stop indian forces crossing...... and one cannot mine the entire border for that matter........



Of course they are to stop Indian forces but why do not these Infiltratrors do not step on these Mines

This means they know where those mines are ; who tells them ; who guides them 

The Guns ; the Training ; The GPS devices all are secondary issues

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## nair

Stephen Cohen said:


> Of course they are to stop Indian forces but why do not these Infiltratrors do not step on these Mines
> 
> This means they know where those mines are ; who tells them ; who guides them
> 
> The Guns ; the Training ; The GPS devices all are secondary issues



Well have you ever heard some one killed by Pak forces while trying to cross over to India???? That would answer your question....


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## Stephen Cohen

nair said:


> Well have you ever heard some one killed by Pak forces while trying to cross over to India???? That would answer your question....



Why would they do that 

It takes time money and resources to train and Arm these assets


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## Hellfire

Stephen Cohen said:


> @notorious_eagle @hellfire @Arsalan
> 
> There was a TV progrram on Pakistan Chanels called Mahaz where The URI sector was shown
> 
> The Colonel explains the security arrangements on PAKISTANI side of the LOC
> 
> He clearly tells about Mines which have been planted
> 
> Now for any group to come in India they must be told of the Waypoints in order to
> prevent hem from stepping on those Mines
> 
> This explains the official HELP to these infiltrators




Stephen, you quoted me in morning I avoided replying. Because you have no idea and right now ignorance of many like you has allowed even Indians here looking more silly than they usually do. There is a very strong competition between members of both sides who are silly and getting sillier, and for me, it is very toxic.

In a mountain, no mine stays static. Rains, snows, landslides, slides, avalanche, rockfall, rains ... anything can cause their position to shift. 

You get only a map marked wherein mine fields have been laid. Thence, it is a question of making your way through. The militants come with a HHMD. It is the responsibility of the launch commander to arrange it. The frequencies of ours side are monitored and ingress kept under observation with Thermal Imager. There is a pattern of UAV overflight prior to ingress. They observe and send a recce party two three times before an actual crossing of LC is undertaken. The launch pad is SEPARATE from a Pakistani Post except in difficult geographical locations. 

At places, one can literally walk through the minefield and see the mines lying over ground, you don't need a guide at majority of the places.

Coming back. Please, just answer, how did the militants get into the camp? If I can give you exactly how the ingress is done, what stops us from being able to stop it? Can you answer that?

Forget about costs. I said on day one, launch pads will be hit, cost will be exacted. But you guys have gone hysteric ... it is funny to see retired generals screaming war .. ask them why they did not go to war when Pakistan didn't have nukes?

Modi started on a peace plan. Unfortunately, we have lost one of the biggest opportunities at peace. Whosoever on the other side has played his/her cards, has damaged the relationship forever. The idiot brigade rules supreme today on both sides. WAR WAR is the mantra .


And you know what is going to happen?

China will lean on Pakistan (CPEC is way too important), Modi will look a fool politically and loose credibility, NS is expendable, he will get shunted out and PA will claim another betrayal and maybe put his hide in display in a PN ship's wardroom this time and PA comes out top, and we are back to square one.

Great going

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## notorious_eagle

@hellfire 

Thank You very much for your detailed response Sir. Stuck with work, i will try to get back to you by nightfall. Only a moron would say this was a false flag operation, but the thing to ponder over is would a third party benefit from continued hostility between India and Pakistan? Why does something always happen when both India and Pakistan are both heading towards peace dialogue?

On an another note, i urge you to reconsider your decision to leave. Please ignore the fanboys and trolls, most of them are 16 year old children with raging testosterone to prove themselves.

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## Hellfire

notorious_eagle said:


> @hellfire
> 
> Thank You very much for your detailed response Sir. Stuck with work, i will try to get back to you by nightfall. Only a moron would say this was a false flag operation, but the thing to ponder over is would a third party benefit from continued hostility between India and Pakistan? Why does something always happen when both India and Pakistan are both heading towards peace dialogue?
> 
> *On an another note, i urge you to reconsider your decision to leave. Please ignore the fanboys and trolls, most of them are 16 year old children with raging testosterone to prove themselves.*



Not leaving the forum.. 

Just avoiding being around till things settle down. I hover and go .. saw your post and posted, I prefer posting and replying to sensible members.

Please take your time.

The only one who gains are the self appointed hawks on either side who cant think anything other than what comes out of their nether regions Disgusting.
Cheers and see you around.

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## nair

notorious_eagle said:


> Why does something always happen when both India and Pakistan are both heading towards peace dialogue?



Have you thought of a scenario of a bit ticket attack in Pakistan???? How will that be portrayed?????


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## Guynextdoor2

notorious_eagle said:


> @hellfire
> 
> Thank You very much for your detailed response Sir. Stuck with work, i will try to get back to you by nightfall. Only a moron would say this was a false flag operation, but the thing to ponder over is would a third party benefit from continued hostility between India and Pakistan? Why does something always happen when both India and Pakistan are both heading towards peace dialogue?
> 
> On an another note, i urge you to reconsider your decision to leave. Please ignore the fanboys and trolls, most of them are 16 year old children with raging testosterone to prove themselves.



Dude, the job of subduing third parties is your governments.


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## Stephen Cohen

hellfire said:


> Stephen, you quoted me in morning I avoided replying. Because you have no idea and right now ignorance of many like you has allowed even Indians here looking more silly than they usually do. There is a very strong competition between members of both sides who are silly and getting sillier, and for me, it is very toxic.
> 
> In a mountain, no mine stays static. Rains, snows, landslides, slides, avalanche, rockfall, rains ... anything can cause their position to shift.
> 
> You get only a map marked wherein mine fields have been laid. Thence, it is a question of making your way through. The militants come with a HHMD. It is the responsibility of the launch commander to arrange it. The frequencies of ours side are monitored and ingress kept under observation with Thermal Imager. There is a pattern of UAV overflight prior to ingress. They observe and send a recce party two three times before an actual crossing of LC is undertaken. The launch pad is SEPARATE from a Pakistani Post except in difficult geographical locations.
> 
> At places, one can literally walk through the minefield and see the mines lying over ground, you don't need a guide at majority of the places.
> 
> Coming back. Please, just answer, how did the militants get into the camp? If I can give you exactly how the ingress is done, what stops us from being able to stop it? Can you answer that?
> 
> Forget about costs. I said on day one, launch pads will be hit, cost will be exacted. But you guys have gone hysteric ... it is funny to see retired generals screaming war .. ask them why they did not go to war when Pakistan didn't have nukes?
> 
> Modi started on a peace plan. Unfortunately, we have lost one of the biggest opportunities at peace. Whosoever on the other side has played his/her cards, has damaged the relationship forever. The idiot brigade rules supreme today on both sides. WAR WAR is the mantra .
> 
> 
> And you know what is going to happen?
> 
> China will lean on Pakistan (CPEC is way too important), Modi will look a fool politically and loose credibility, NS is expendable, he will get shunted out and PA will claim another betrayal and maybe put his hide in display in a PN ship's wardroom this time and PA comes out top, and we are back to square one.
> 
> Great going



Thanks for this explanation ; whatever may be the help given to the infiltrators
we must take revenge

It is a question of Moral Ascendancy and troop Morale

Any way we must leave it to the Professionals and Army commanders

But something different than what was done earlier in Pathankot is required

Another thing AND More IMPORTANTLY

Have you wondered why there is more anger than Normal
because Army bases have been attacked before

It is because of the Kashmir violence ; If Kashmir had been peaceful for the last few months
we would have again gone into dossier mode

That violence has FEEDED into and conflated with this attack and taken together it is a case of
Enough is enough

All Indians know that Pakistan has been orchestrating the Kashmir agitation
And now they have stepped up to another level with this attack on our base


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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Dude, the job of subduing third parties is your governments.



There is a legitimate question @hellfire asked..... Why was burhan wani killed now???

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> There is a legitimate question @hellfire asked..... Why was burhan wani killed now???



he held a gun in his hand. That's enough reason. Indian state disarms people and considers anyone with a weapon a danger.

Unlike Pak where they walk around with AK 47s. We are within our right to support this legal position.


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## Stephen Cohen

nair said:


> There is a legitimate question @hellfire asked..... Why was burhan wani killed now???



He was in hiding earlier ;he escaped several times


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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> he held a gun in his hand. That's enough reason. Indian state disarms people and considers anyone with a weapon a danger.



You did not understand the question....(I am not opposing his killing, if he held an ak, he will have a bullet written his name on it). He was under surveillance for a very long time...... So the question is why was he killed now?

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> You did not understand the question....(I am not opposing his killing, if he held an ak, he will have a bullet written his name on it). He was under surveillance for a very long time...... So the question is why was he killed now?



maybe he had shown signs of becoming more violent, maybe they were waiting to see if doesn't show such tendencies, maybe he was planning a major attack....you never know the reasons.


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## Stephen Cohen

nair said:


> You did not understand the question....(I am not opposing his killing, if he held an ak, he will have a bullet written his name on it). He was under surveillance for a very long time...... So the question is why was he killed now?



If he was such a pious man ; he could have joined Geelani and enjoyed State Protection 

Good that he died ; and along with him his so called AURA of INVINCIBILITY too
was demolished 

The other 100 people who have died and the injured are the real victims of the 
so called Legend of Burhan Wani


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## nair

Stephen Cohen said:


> If he was such a pious man ; he could have joined Geelani and enjoyed State Protection
> 
> Good that he died ; and along with him his so called AURA of INVINCIBILITY too
> was demolished
> 
> The other 100 people who have died and the injured are the real victims of the
> so called Legend of Burhan Wani



He was a terrorist....... Well you do not understand the implication of such guys..... These guys are deadly while alive, and they are more deadly in their graves.....

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## Hellfire

@Stephen Cohen @Guynextdoor2

Our surveillance grid is damn good. You must have read of reports of militants addressing masses in valley. Have you wondered how does that happen?

Heck, even Pakistani members never wonder how that happens!

Wani was being observed for a long time, could have been neutralised last year, or before. Why after definitive peace overtures from Modi, a supposed Hindu hardliner who could and wanted to, reach a settlement with Pakistan?

You need to think there

@Stephen Cohen

We need to get our political act together. Have been saying it for months.

Why do you think successive Army Commanders Northern Command have said so to the Government? We are not, you are right, a military dictatorship. Hence, a general telling a government to get its act together must mean something!! Think on that line and ponder over it.

If you stay in say Indore, and I make MP government 100% corrupt and Digvijay Singh the opposition, gets money from Shivraj Chauhan and both abuse each other, control the trade and create mayhem by calling bandhs, how would you feel?

Wont you get fed up? Better still, you are a daily wage earner and everyday Digvijay Singh calls for a bandh and everything is shut. He says he will give 500 rs per day for dharna against government, year after year you earn money to feed your children this way, what will happen?

You guys seriously need to look at how politically we always screw up things. Ignore Pakistan, address the basic issue, then what can a militant do?

What stops GoI from that? And answer is NOT Article 370.

You recall my saying break politico-separatist nexus and stop funding the separatist? Now you believe me, when it comes out in newspaper?

These are ugly politics. No one, neither the Indian politician, nor Pakistani politician, nor the Kashmiri politicians nor separatist care a damn for the guy on the street.
That is the hard truth.

And worse, fanboys here are too stupid to acknowledge and realise that.

Not one professional here on either side will be found cheering for war .... because cost is known to a soldier. People have frozen in their spot when the first bullet went from next to their ear. This is no counterstrike, you cant quit and relog for a second round ... you die.


Remember

_If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends; you talk to your enemies!

Moshé Dayan_

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## The Eagle

We had an experience in Karachi (1992) as well, starting days of OP against the criminals, a question mostly asked and raised among political & social circles that why the youth is picking the guns and then people sit together along with LEAs and locally we have been addressing the issue. Then the most came out as unavailability of jobs, work and any mean of earning for daily life so that was only possible through peace in Karachi that where there is peace, there is growing business and everyone would be happy so we carried on the OP almost maintained the peace and now we are seeing the growth and economy in Karachi and youth is happy with progress while mostly are educated enough to say no to crimes at last and only habitual or paid are involved but being hunted as well. It was revealed that youth needs a mean of earning for daily life expenditure and is mostly fooled through means of brain washing etc to commit crimes.

I quoted Karachi Youth only to establish an argument here. Did somebody sit for a while and realize that why Kashmiri youth is picking the gun over pen and what about Wani's past. As I read, his loved one was called in front of him once and he was also once beaten brutally almost to death though he survived but fire in heart. The revenge helped him to pick the weapon by the support of vengeance. What I am trying to say is, India has to realize that applying the force would result in a reaction of force. Nobody can wash the blood with blood but it has to be based upon democratic or civilians ways and approach by addressing the issues through social forums and means. People need to be granted with what they want. 

So far about Modi's stance, as much as I see, it looks like that the promises and the jingoism that he showed prior to election and during his campaign mostly spoken against Pakistan and that deal with iron fist, fire bullets more than one against Pakistan etc, are now forcing him to fulfill those extremist minds. (Hope members wouldn't mind here but I am speaking what I feel). So to fulfill that one of the mandates, which was handed over to him based upon strongly opposing Pakistan and all those war stories, now he needs reasons to address people and I am sure, there are questions asked about those days of election campaign and all those speeches. On other hand, we mostly do not see such speeches against India at all especially during election campaigns because our policy of election and mandate being given to political government are not based upon such stance against India but this issue is concerned for any political government elected by poll through its foreign office. 

Look at the immaturity of Indian Media in this case alone and remember the Pathankot times, whereby even before conclusion of investigation, people like Arnab were able to point everything towards Pakistan and rest followed. Media is not merely following the share of information through any official but as the Modi's stance against Pakistan is clear, Media follows the same line and comes with same strategy to attack Pakistan this & that because even from High Offices and Co-Leagues of Modi cannot refrain or stop media by doing this. All these stunts of jingoism and war mongering are just based upon the same election campaign that is firing back to the current Indian Political Government and due to the same, lives are lost.

On Humanitarian grounds, Nation has to show a responsibility while realizing that Kashmiri's lives matters as well. All of them are not terrorists but there are voices unheard by Government or not covered by Media yet resulting through the grudge and vengeance among them. And the same cannot be suppressed through force but by listening to them and through redressal of grievances. From the political point of view, seems like Modi and Co are hell bent to prove that mandate is rightly given to them and even have realized the circumstances, cannot back from it for the sake of political gain and point scoring. However, such approach is going to damage the society very badly and there is a possibility, that people would be divided in or against favour of such stance but it would be out of control and irreparable. NaMO is pushing India somewhere it was not meant to.

Indeed it is the need of time that both sides have to realize the ground realities and need to counter any kind of such flame throwing or fueling elements that can damage either of the countries. I am sure, that except to reply, there is none of such kind of war mongering statements from any Pakistan official and same need to be continued from both sides as war is not going to favour anyone. Who is loosing more here, indeed to lives that those are not the part of Government from both sides but the political elite is mean to sell their beans and gain votes and nothing else. 

Hope, sanity will prevail and there will be peace.


_
the lesson of politics:

Never agree with the opponent and twist the facts and tell them what they want to hear not the truth._

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## Arsalan

Stephen Cohen said:


> @notorious_eagle @hellfire @Arsalan
> 
> There was a TV progrram on Pakistan Chanels called Mahaz where The URI sector was shown
> 
> The Colonel explains the security arrangements on PAKISTANI side of the LOC
> 
> He clearly tells about Mines which have been planted
> 
> Now for any group to come in India they must be told of the Waypoints in order to
> prevent them from stepping on those Mines
> 
> This explains the official HELP to these infiltrators


That is assuming they did came from Pakistan. The only amusing point for me was how quick the media was to start pointing fingers at Pakistan and start the blame game. I think it would have been better if they had waited for a day or two, then said they have uncovered evidence that points to Pakistan, that would have looked much more effective.

As i said, had they been half this efficient before hand, the attack would not have happened. 

Plus sir, please try and see the irony when someone states that terrorists can cross over from a mined and fenced LoC with Indian outposts closely monitoring the whole border and LoC being one of the most closely guarded line but still thinks and says that the problem in WANA and Waziristan is not a result of insurgency from Afghan side via that porous Pak-Afghan border.



nair said:


> Yeah i can see that..... I was about to ask you about the leave.....Welcome back any way.....too much of sh!t to respond.....
> 
> 
> 
> If i could add, the retired generals and the so called "Defense Analysts" who comes to this media shows soap opera's if i may call them....... Public (read common man) would listen to these retired generals and analysts and start creating their own opinion...... last 2 days there is war in every channel, some of them are fighting it one sided (ie only indian panelists) and some are two way....... My wife is happy these days, i hardly watch news these days as it gives me headache and she can concentrate on prog which both of us can watch.....
> 
> These idiots knows the ground realities pretty well, and they knows the pros and cons of every suggestion they make.... In spite of that they give ideas which can lead in to a nuclear war......


So true. But then again sir, there is a point to ponder in this as well.

WHY do these so called analysts do what they are doing? Why all that hate speech and war mongering? More importantly, why do those soap operas host such people and why are we witnessing the same on almost EVERY channel?

*The reason janab is quite simple, IT SELLS WELL and the worrying part is, sadly it is us, the common men and no one else who is the buyer. *



nair said:


> We had attacks before, but some how this time every thread is a troll fest, and every poster (including few title holders) is enjoying their time..... Idiots doesn't know the cost of a war, as they assume that they wont be affected, Key board warriors what.....
> 
> Lol i am safe by the way.... Sitting far from the action on a mountain


For them it is how to show "patriotism" even though the truth remains that there wont be any winners in the war.

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