# PAF: Pilot vs Platform



## war&peace

PAF has produced some of the finest pilots in the world and this fact has been acknowledged by the friends and foes alike. Their sheer professionalism and skills enabled them to outperform a much larger adversary in almost any conflict between the two (PAF and IAF). However it would not be fair to underestimate or ignore the role of the machines involved in the conflict.
PAF displayed its power and professionalism in the 17-days long war India started on Sept 6, 1965 (in three days, we shall be celebrating the anniversary i.e. the Defence Day). PAF fielded F-86 sabre vs Indian Vampires and Gnats. Though Gnats (1955) was designed later than F-86F (1949 but upgraded to the new standards/blocks); both were a good match and neither possessed a decisive edge over the other. Thus a pilot could make a big difference in a conflict and PAF pilots proved their mettle by scoring massive kills against IAF during the war despite the huge numerical disparity.







PAF F-86 Sabre





PAF F-104 Starfighter






IAF GNAT





IAF Vampire






IAF Canberra

It is the combination of the pilot and the machine that decides the outcome of the mission. In a dog fight, the manoeuvrability of the machine is as important as the skills and agility of the man behind the machine are. However the modern technology has altered the equation in favour of the machine and pilots role and skills are as not as crucial as before. When I say modern technology the term encompasses the platform itself and the systems carried by it. The systems here mean the avionics (Radars, EW, ECM, Guidance and controls etc) and the weapons (A2G missiles, GBM, LRAAM, other precision strike weapons like ALCMs). With BVR LRAAMs and advanced radars and stealth technology, the dogfights of the future will be drastically different and superior platform will play much more significant part than the superior skills of the pilot. Almost all 4th A/C are equipped with FBW system and the flight-computer plays a pivotal role in controlling the movement of the control surfaces on the airframe that has been designed to be inherently unstable so as to increase the manoeuvrability of the machine thus allowing the pilot to focus more on mission than just flying the machine.






PAF F-16C/D Block 52+






PAF JF-17 Thunder

Continue.......

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## war&peace

PAF F-7pg





IAF Su-30 MKI





IAF Tejas

The fifth gen. A/Cs take this a step further and pilots is more free from flying than the previous gen. A/Cs and it is predicted that 6th gen. A/C may very well be a pilotless or optionally piloted machine. Artificial intelligence has made great advances and now it is in the position to take on to the human pilots and recently it was reported that it has beaten a veteran pilot.





F-35





USAF F-22





PLAAF J-20





PLAAF J-31






TAI TFX

The conventional skill-set of the pilots will play a lesser role in future fights and thus it behoves a change of mindset and more resources should be invested in better hardware instead of simply relying on the man power. The only constant in the universe is the change; the individuals, institutions and/or the nations who are not ready for the change, risk their survival.


@Oscar @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Quwa @Indus Falcon @salarsikander @hellfire @Mugwop @Arsalan

Disclaimer: All images have been taken from internet and their copy rights belong to their rightful owners.

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## The Eagle

war&peace said:


> PAF F-104 Starfighter


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## risingsinga

Very well written article ( I assume you wrote it) my friend. It provided me some insight into the history of Pakistan air force in a quick overview. i also agree that future aircraft will be more autonomous and carry out missions themselves but somewhere in the later half of the century...when you and me will be old guys 
I could only like but I wish a few positive ratings as you deserve it. Congratulations

@PaklovesTurkiye @HAKIKAT

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## MastanKhan

The fabled B57 bomber---this one might be the converted surveillance aircraft of the PAF.

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 331231
> 
> 
> 
> The fabled B57 bomber---this one might be the converted surveillance aircraft of the PAF.


Yeah I saw it displayed on Masroor airbase but it was a bomber I believe. May be they converted it into reconnaissance A/C


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## MastanKhan

war&peace said:


> Yeah I saw it displayed on Masroor airbase but it was a bomber I believe. May be they converted it into reconnaissance A/C




No sir---the ones that the U S had converted to spy over china and russia---I think they gave us 3 of them.

Now---here is another act of treason by Paf---stated by a usaf officer---he did not state treason---but just read---.

Bhutto knew that paf pilots were flying this aircraft---he asked Paf air chief if he could fly it over kashmir area and bring some pictures for pak amry---.

The Pak air chief refused---that this was only for the u s---he would not do it for pak army---. The results might have been very different if pak army had the recon pictures---.

That is why I keep repeating---the heirarchy of Paf are ingrained Traitors of pakistan.

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> No sir---the ones that the U S had converted to spy over china and russia---I think they gave us 3 of them.
> 
> Now---here is another act of treason by Paf---stated by a usaf officer---he did not state treason---but just read---.
> 
> Bhutto knew that paf pilots were flying this aircraft---he asked Paf air chief if he could fly it over kashmir area and bring some pictures for pak amry---.
> 
> The Pak air chief refused---that this was only for the u s---he would not do it for pak army---. The results might have been very different if pak army had the recon pictures---.
> 
> That is why I keep repeating---the heirarchy of Paf are ingrained Traitors of pakistan.


This is really shocking revelation but was Bhutto FM or PM..I mean when was it?
As I know that CAS just before Noor Khan was kept in darkness by the army about any of its operations and he retired in August 1965 fortunately for Pakistan since Noor Khan really fought and lead his force from the front.


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## A_Poster

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 331231
> 
> 
> 
> The fabled B57 bomber---this one might be the converted surveillance aircraft of the PAF.




A plane of that vintage would be shot down as soon as it get airborne. SAMs and A to A missiles would be able to operate at their maximum envelop for a plane of that size (which means upto 300 Km, and even 400Km if India get S-400), and it being an ancient plane lacking ECM measures would be one shot one kill.

Do you really think that best weapon with your enemy is a slingshot when you suggest using such ancient junk in battle? Even US with its mighty air-force never sends its conventional bombers without first gaining air-supremacy.


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## war&peace

Stephen Cohen said:


> You should blame India for PAF's problems
> 
> We denied you AL 31 and hence you could not get J 10
> 
> SImilarly the French avionics package for JF 17 was also stopped by India
> 
> The recent stopping of US aid for F 16s is also a Indian lobbying result


Your lies were exposed and countered by @Oscar on another thread but you are repeating the same lies again.
It is PAF itself that does not want J-10 otherwise it would have been in PAF in large numbers. If India was influential enough, it would have forced Russia to stop RD93 for JF-17 and making it very difficult for PAF to get it on time.

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## Stephen Cohen

war&peace said:


> You lies were exposed and countered by @Oscar on another thread but you are repeating the same lies again.
> It is PAF itself that does not want J-10 otherwise it would have been in PAF in large numbers. If India was influential enough, it would have forced Russia to stop RD93 for JF-17 and making it very difficult for PAF to get it on time.



JF 17 was never a threat to India and never will be 

I dont understand what satisfaction you derive by BLAMING PAF 

PAF Neither controls the Finances in Pakistan NOR it can influence 
foreign countries like Russia and France 

What is the HARM in blaming India


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## A_Poster

MastanKhan said:


> No sir---the ones that the U S had converted to spy over china and russia---I think they gave us 3 of them.
> 
> Now---here is another act of treason by Paf---stated by a usaf officer---he did not state treason---but just read---.
> 
> Bhutto knew that paf pilots were flying this aircraft---he asked Paf air chief if he could fly it over kashmir area and bring some pictures for pak amry---.
> 
> The Pak air chief refused---that this was only for the u s---he would not do it for pak army---. The results might have been very different if pak army had the recon pictures---.
> 
> That is why I keep repeating---the heirarchy of Paf are ingrained Traitors of pakistan.



RB57 had a role ib 1965 which it played, even though it was already outdated them. In 1971, it was a sitting duck.

One RB-57 ,on loan from USA, was used in 1965 war and shot down by SA-2 missile. That missile has higher ceiling than RB-57. Sending it against improved SAMS and interceptors is like sending your pilots to assured death. 

Another thing to remember is that those planes were loaned for spying against USSR , not sold or leased.

This has been discussed on PDF itself and you have participated in that discussion. I don't think why you still persist with thinking that RB57 were some wonder weapons.

https://defence.pk/threads/1965-war-role-of-the-rb-57f.60610/


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## Bilal Khan 777

Stephen Cohen said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> You should blame India for PAF's problems
> 
> We denied you AL 31 and hence you could not get J 10
> 
> SImilarly the French avionics package for JF 17 was also stopped by India
> 
> The recent stopping of US aid for F 16s is also a Indian lobbying result


Are you paid by word for your propaganda efforts?

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Are you paid by word for your propaganda efforts?


You nailed it...he has been repeating the same lines while Oscar proved all his BS false but he is persistent. Let's see what the mods do to him.

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## A2Z

war&peace said:


> PAF has produced some of the finest pilots in the world and this fact has been acknowledged by the friends and foes alike. Their sheer professionalism and skills enabled them to outperform a much larger adversary in almost any conflict between the two (PAF and IAF). However it would not be fair to underestimate or ignore the role of the machines involved in the conflict.
> PAF displayed its power and professionalism in the 17-days long war India started on Sept 6, 1965 (in three days, we shall be celebrating the anniversary i.e. the Defence Day). PAF fielded F-86 sabre vs Indian Vampires and Gnats. Though Gnats (1955) was designed later than F-86F (1949 but upgraded to the new standards/blocks); both were a good match and neither possessed a decisive edge over the other. Thus a pilot could make a big difference in a conflict and PAF pilots proved their mettle by scoring massive kills against IAF during the war despite the huge numerical disparity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-86 Sabre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-104 Starfighter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF GNAT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF Vampire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF Canberra
> 
> It is the combination of the pilot and the machine that decides the outcome of the mission. In a dog fight, the manoeuvrability of the machine is as important as the skills and agility of the man behind the machine are. However the modern technology has altered the equation in favour of the machine and pilots role and skills are as not as crucial as before. When I say modern technology the term encompasses the platform itself and the systems carried by it. The systems here mean the avionics (Radars, EW, ECM, Guidance and controls etc) and the weapons (A2G missiles, GBM, LRAAM, other precision strike weapons like ALCMs). With BVR LRAAMs and advanced radars and stealth technology, the dogfights of the future will be drastically different and superior platform will play much more significant part than the superior skills of the pilot. Almost all 4th A/C are equipped with FBW system and the flight-computer plays a pivotal role in controlling the movement of the control surfaces on the airframe that has been designed to be inherently unstable so as to increase the manoeuvrability of the machine thus allowing the pilot to focus more on mission than just flying the machine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16C/D Block 52+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF JF-17 Thunder
> 
> Continue.......


No doubt PAF's pilots are one of the best trained in the world but what happened in the past has become the part of past. Back then we were technologically on par if not advanced then our adversary but today we have neither the matching quantity nor quality.

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## scorpionx

I first came to know about the unknown pilot of 8 pass Charlie fame here, on this very forum. My head bowed in respect and wished we could have such a brilliant soldier on our side.

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## Jaga Badmash

A_Poster said:


> RB57 had a role ib 1965 which it played, even though it was already outdated them. In 1971, it was a sitting duck.
> 
> One RB-57 ,on loan from USA, was used in 1965 war and shot down by SA-2 missile. That missile has higher ceiling than RB-57. Sending it against improved SAMS and interceptors is like sending your pilots to assured death.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that those planes were loaned for spying against USSR , not sold or leased.
> 
> This has been discussed on PDF itself and you have participated in that discussion. I don't think why you still persist with thinking that RB57 were some wonder weapons.


Thread you quoted is very old (2010) and your date of joining is very recent which means your original ID was banned and you came up with new one...again tells us that you are a troll and liar pathetic Pakistan hater and for sure banned for that reasons.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

scorpionx said:


> I first came to know about the unknown pilot of 8 pass Charlie fame here, on this very forum. My head bowed in respect and wished we could have such a brilliant soldier on our side.



Respect to Indian side as well...Soldiers are always brave ones, best of us irrespective of nationality. Thanks for compliment...

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## A_Poster

Jaga Badmash said:


> Thread you quoted is very old (2010) and your date of joining is very recent which means your original ID was banned and you came up with new one...again tells us that you are a troll and liar pathetic Pakistan hater and for sure banned for that reasons.



Stop being a pathetic and silly whiner.

That PAF thread is listed on "similar thread" list of this thread: https://defence.pk/threads/rb-57f-in-1964-in-pakistan.96961/ which is listed at no 6 on google list for "RB57 with Pakistan" search string, which I typed into Google search engine to confirm this blatantly stupid story of Mastan Khan.


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## AUz

Stephen Cohen said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> You should blame India for PAF's problems
> 
> We denied you AL 31 and hence you could not get J 10
> 
> SImilarly the French avionics package for JF 17 was also stopped by India
> 
> The recent stopping of US aid for F 16s is also a Indian lobbying result





mental masturbation of poor indians is depressing to see--while in reality their country is the biggest sh!thole with majority of population lacking proper sanitation facilities (WorldBank sanitation report, 2015).

india didn't do sh!t...nor it has any influence outside of it's borders.

But hey, you can continue your ratsh!t fantasies..

india also forced U.S to pull out of iraq, and it was india who forced Germany to take in refugees. Also, it was india who called in Turkey and stopped the coup and saved Erdogan.

And did I tell you india told the sun to keep radiating so earth stays warm?

Holy sh!t..india is too great. Much wow!

While india in real life..

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## I S I

Stephen Cohen said:


> JF 17 was never a threat to India and never will be


even a Pakistani pigeon is a threat to India.

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## Talha Baloch

PAF is best & soon our money problem will be solved (y)

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## war&peace

Stephen Cohen said:


> JF 17 was never a threat to India and never will be
> 
> I dont understand what satisfaction you derive by BLAMING PAF
> 
> PAF Neither controls the Finances in Pakistan NOR it can influence
> foreign countries like Russia and France
> 
> What is the HARM in blaming India


Keep your lies and trolling away from this thread. You are not welcome here.

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## war&peace

A2Z said:


> No doubt PAF's pilots are one of the best trained in the world but what happened in the past has become the part of past. Back then we were technologically on par if not advanced then our adversary but today we have neither the matching quantity nor quality.


Yes, you are right and that is basically the essence of the article. We have to move with the world.


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## muhammadali233

Stephen Cohen said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> You should blame India for PAF's problems
> 
> We denied you AL 31 and hence you could not get J 10
> 
> SImilarly the French avionics package for JF 17 was also stopped by India
> 
> The recent stopping of US aid for F 16s is also a Indian lobbying result


You should make this your signature cause you type this in every thread.Make life easier for yourself.


MastanKhan said:


> No sir---the ones that the U S had converted to spy over china and russia---I think they gave us 3 of them.
> 
> Now---here is another act of treason by Paf---stated by a usaf officer---he did not state treason---but just read---.
> 
> Bhutto knew that paf pilots were flying this aircraft---he asked Paf air chief if he could fly it over kashmir area and bring some pictures for pak amry---.
> 
> The Pak air chief refused---that this was only for the u s---he would not do it for pak army---. The results might have been very different if pak army had the recon pictures---.
> 
> That is why I keep repeating---the heirarchy of Paf are ingrained Traitors of pakistan.


Source or yet another brain fart?

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## khail007

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 331231
> 
> 
> The fabled B57 bomber---this one might be the converted surveillance aircraft of the PAF.



Sir,
That was RB57, one was damaged while on a mission, though flown back by skillful pilot but may be written - off.


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## Bilal Khan 777

scorpionx said:


> I first came to know about the unknown pilot of 8 pass Charlie fame here, on this very forum. My head bowed in respect and wished we could have such a brilliant soldier on our side.



India has, and continues to, produced some brilliant soldiers.

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## I S I

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> India has, and continues to, produced some brilliant soldiers.


Yes. Case for example is Kulbhushan Yaadav. But he wasn't very lucky in the end.

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## Bilal Khan 777

I S I said:


> Yes. Case for example is Kulbhushan Yaadav. But he wasn't very lucky in the end.


This is an unfair assessment. It is not the Indian army or military we are against. They are only soldiers following orders. It is the Indian state that makes the anti Pakistan policies.

Rise above your own anti india biases and learn to make fair assessments.

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## I S I

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is an unfair assessment. It is not the Indian army or military we are against. They are only soldiers following orders. It is the Indian state that makes the anti Pakistan policies.
> 
> Rise above your own anti india biases and learn to make fair assessments.


Men is Indian armed forces don't come from Mars. They belongs to the same hindutva mindset.


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## MastanKhan

muhammadali233 said:


> You should make this your signature cause you type this in every thread.Make life easier for yourself.
> 
> Source or yet another brain fart?



Hi,

I did not think that you were that big of an idiot---but then who am I to prove you wrong. 

This statement was made on this board by a retd U S Lt Col who was based in karachi air base during the late 60's---as a Lt---.

Are you pakistani kids always going to be inherently dumb--.

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## muhammadali233

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I did not think that you were that big of an idiot---but then who am I to prove you wrong.
> 
> This statement was made on this board by a retd U S Lt Col who was based in karachi air base during the late 60's---as a Lt---.
> 
> Are you pakistani kids always going to be inherently dumb--.


AOA,
You get paid to do this?
Not inherently dumb,we are done with news without source,like the one you earlier falsely said about the Musharraf and j10,photograph and shit,this story is yet another hoax.
Still you haven't quoted a single source to back your claim,a book,a verse or that retd col told you personally? 
I am not judging anyone just want the source because if you don't have one don't;Don't quote one.
Asking for legitness is being dumb?Good going.


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## salarsikander

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You really are an imbecile---. Keep up your good work---you are doing well in the direction that you are headed towards.


Well, the SOURCE is new word on street sir. Every new kid who has joined PDF lately seems to be revolving around the idea of asking for a 'source' from a well reputed senior member of the forum. Actually 11 years of continuous contribution doesn't really count since you cannot produce the ''Source''. But then again what can I say, those of have stayed for a while knows who says what from where so the question of authenticity doesn't really arise. Unless one ofc is looking forward to satisfy misplaced ego and sense of entitlement

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## war&peace

muhammadali233 said:


> Source or yet another brain fart?


Bro!!! @MastanKhan is a senior member and he is respected for his independent opinion so even if you have some difference of opinion...just ask respectfully... IDK what happened to the culture and grooming in Pakistan but when I was growing we taught to respect elders and he is in the age group of our fathers... Plus he is not troll...many people have difference with his opinion....but that's another issue



salarsikander said:


> Well, the SOURCE is new word on street sir. Every new kid who has joined PDF lately seems to be revolving around the idea of asking for a 'source' from a well reputed senior member of the forum. Actually 11 years of continuous contribution doesn't really count since you cannot produce the ''Source''. But then again what can I say, those of have stayed for a while knows who says what from where so the question of authenticity doesn't really arise. Unless one ofc is looking forward to satisfy misplaced ego and sense of entitlement


Asking for source is not a bad thing either but it is the way one asks that matters. For me @MastanKhan would be like some friend of my father in non-internet life so most probably I will be calling uncle (may be not in USA) instead of addressing him by name but at least we can show normal ethics especially when we know someone is senior and a respected member.

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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> Asking for source is not a bad thing either but it is way one asks that matters. For me @MastanKhan would be like some friend of my father in non-internet life so most probably I will be calling uncle (may be not in USA) instead of addressing him by name but at least we can show normal ethics especially when we know someone is senior and a respected member.


You beat me to it. The way demanding it on face. I mean I wonder how much ego do you really build up after reading few pages on internet forum as compared to a guys who has spend times reading real stuff in library.

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## MastanKhan

war&peace said:


> Bro!!! @MastanKhan is a senior member and he is respected for his independent opinion so even if you have soe difference of opinion...just ask respectfully... IDK what happened to the culture and grooming in Pakistan but when I was growing we taught to respect elders and he is in the age group of our fathers... Plus he is not troll...many people have difference with his opinion....but that's another issue
> 
> 
> Asking for source is not a bad thing either but it is way one asks that matters. For me @MastanKhan would be like some friend of my father in non-internet life so most probably I will be calling uncle (may be not in USA) instead of addressing him by name but at least we can show normal ethics especially when we know someone is senior and a respected member.



Hi,

If someone wants to respect me or my posts---I am very appreciative---but I don't ask for it---. If I wrote about a certain issue or something special---then I must have most probably read it somewhere over the years or heard it over the air waves---.

I once read a quote by a general---" an analysis and discussion must be extremely ruthless and brutal for it to be honest---but its implementation must be ice cold with surgical precision ".

I would rather someone call me by name---be mad at me---but still be able to understand that even gods ( paf ) make mistakes and blunders and they need to be held accountable.

I am pretty sure the message that Air chief marshall Asghar Khan sent to his indian counter part on his own---before the start of hostilities----" if you don't send in your air force---I will not send in my air force "---should be known to all pakistanis.

This is the type of TREASON that I talk about in the pakistan air force that has gone on without any checks and balances.

@war&peace --- I would rather be your friend and friend of your dad as well---rather than an uncle.

When you make friends with younger people---you make them daring---you make them aware of issues problems and concerns in a buddy like manner---when you talk to them as equals---you bring confidence in their approach and thinking and that is priceless.

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## Thorough Pro

Dude you have serious comprehension problems



A_Poster said:


> A plane of that vintage would be shot down as soon as it get airborne. SAMs and A to A missiles would be able to operate at their maximum envelop for a plane of that size (which means upto 300 Km, and even 400Km if India get S-400), and it being an ancient plane lacking ECM measures would be one shot one kill.
> .
> Do you really think that best weapon with your enemy is a slingshot when you suggest using such ancient junk in battle? Even US with its mighty air-force never sends its conventional bombers without first gaining air-supremacy.


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## war&peace

This is not a positive thing that people instead focusing on the topic have resorted to


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If someone wants to respect me or my posts---I am very appreciative---but I don't ask for it---. If I wrote about a certain issue or something special---then I must have most probably read it somewhere over the years or heard it over the air waves---.
> 
> I once read a quote by a general---" an analysis and discussion must be extremely ruthless and brutal for it to be honest---but its implementation must be ice cold with surgical precision ".
> 
> I would rather someone call me by name---be mad at me---but still be able to understand that even gods ( paf ) make mistakes and blunders and they need to be held accountable.
> 
> I am pretty sure the message that Air chief marshall Asghar Khan sent to his indian counter part on his own---before the start of hostilities----" if you don't send in your air force---I will not send in my air force "---should be known to all pakistanis.
> 
> This is the type of TREASON that I talk about in the pakistan air force that has gone on without any checks and balances.



I didn't say you asked for but I just said how we should be. By the way, I also read a lot of stuff and of course everything does not stay in the active memory but recedes into the subconscious mind and when the relevant discussion ensues that pops up and a lot of that can even be searched on the internet but a lot info is from books and newspapers those are offline. However if someones asks me for a reference, I will try to provide but for more than 50% I can't..For example I know many details of certain projects and they were never made public so what reference can I provide for them? ...and I just share the tip of iceberg and carefully hold back any info that is confidential. 

In Islam there are no holy cows especially when it comes to the govt and public officials. If Caliph Omar could be questioned publicly by the people about the extra piece of cloth and in such rude manner that if he (Omar) does not provide the satisfactory explanation for that, we (people) are not obliged to follow him effectively indicating he does not deserve to be the caliph anymore and the caliph provided the clear and satisfactory explanation instead of beating around the bush. As we see NS and his goons doing about Panama leaks and offshore companies. 

That simply means whether it is president, PM, chief justice, or any of chiefs of the armed forces, chairmen of organisations, heads of departments....they must be responsible for their actions and none is exempt and all this immunities have no place in Islam and even most of the modern states...US president can be impeached...but here we are ruled to arrogant people but their once they are abroad and in front of their masters, you see their legs trembling and tongues stuttering. If they really serve their people and believe in Allah, they would talk to them with confidence and stare them in eyes...as was Quaid-e-Azam or some extent ZAB and currently Imran Khan has that ability and perhaps that's why he remains an undesirable person.

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## MastanKhan



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## Bilal Khan 777

I S I said:


> Men is Indian armed forces don't come from Mars. They belongs to the same hindutva mindset.



We can agree to disagree. A few bigots in India don't represent a billion people, just like a few idiots in uniform don't represent all men in green. I am not here to convince your types.

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## Hellfire

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I did not think that you were that big of an idiot---but then who am I to prove you wrong.
> 
> This statement was made on this board by a retd U S Lt Col who was based in karachi air base during the late 60's---as a Lt---.
> 
> Are you pakistani kids always going to be inherently dumb--.




Sir. 

Ignore it. Or better still, please don't correct. Sanity is not avirtue well accepted on PDF. Till 2013(?) I think we had great discussions, now relegated to the past.

It works to our advantage as an enemy nation

On topic, there was 01 x RB-57F lost during 1965 war. (Source: *Cold War Jet Combat: Air-to-Air Jet Fighter Operations 1950-1972 *by _Martin Bowman_; Chapter 3 Page 65).

So, contention may not be entirely true?

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## RAMPAGE

@hellfire 

Good to have you back, Sir.

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## weqi

Stephen Cohen said:


> JF 17 was never a threat to India and never will be
> 
> I dont understand what satisfaction you derive by BLAMING PAF
> 
> PAF Neither controls the Finances in Pakistan NOR it can influence
> foreign countries like Russia and France
> 
> What is the HARM in blaming India


i have listen many indian PDF member that F-16 is 1980s outdated machine and never been threat to india as su-30 is better machine and real threat for pakistan

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## Hellfire

RAMPAGE said:


> @hellfire
> 
> Good to have you back, Sir.


@RAMPAGE WAJsal is pretty persuasive, as are Parikrama, Nair. Thank you, Sir.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

hellfire said:


> @RAMPAGE WAJsal is pretty persuasive, as are Parikrama, Nair. Thank you, Sir.



Welcome back to PDF......Why don't you also pursue Sir Joe Shearer to come back?

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## Hellfire

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Welcome back to PDF......Why don't you also pursue Sir Joe Shearer to come back?


Trying ....

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## muhammadali233

war&peace said:


> Bro!!! @MastanKhan is a senior member and he is respected for his independent opinion so even if you have some difference of opinion...just ask respectfully... IDK what happened to the culture and grooming in Pakistan but when I was growing we taught to respect elders and he is in the age group of our fathers... Plus he is not troll...many people have difference with his opinion....but that's another issue


I respect every member as it is but all bitter no sweet makes me wonder does he get paid to do this kind of propaganda?I just want a source,that is all a man needs.
Seniority doesn't means that your words become gospel.
I never said he was a troll and i never will to a senior member.


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## war&peace

muhammadali233 said:


> I respect every member as it is but all bitter no sweet makes me wonder does he get paid to do this kind of propaganda?I just want a source,that is all a man needs.
> Seniority doesn't means that your words become gospel.
> I never said he was a troll and i never will to a senior member.


But bro using bad words does not equate to respect...
Anyways
What is your opinion on the topic ??

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## MastanKhan

muhammadali233 said:


> Y
> 
> Source or yet another brain fart?





muhammadali233 said:


> I respect every member as it is but all bitter no sweet makes me wonder does he get paid to do this kind of propaganda?I just want a source,that is all a man needs.
> Seniority doesn't means that your words become gospel.
> I never said he was a troll and i never will to a senior member.



Hi,

What a frigging LIAR---. Have courage to tell the truth----.

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## risingsinga

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 331231
> 
> 
> 
> The fabled B57 bomber---this one might be the converted surveillance aircraft of the PAF.


Classic airplane but now it is part of oblivion


Stephen Cohen said:


> JF 17 was never a threat to India and never will be
> 
> I dont understand what satisfaction you derive by BLAMING PAF
> 
> PAF Neither controls the Finances in Pakistan NOR it can influence
> foreign countries like Russia and France
> 
> What is the HARM in blaming India


Factually that is not true from any angle. JF-17 is a small lightweight but a suitable A/C for PAF needs especially when complemented with a heavy fighter but even on its own it holds the sky


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