# Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions



## Interceptor

*7-February-2007 Jane's Defence*


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## HAIDER

Today first time Pak army used US predator on Lal Masjid. Which is surprise that Pakistan has this world most advance UAV. Anyone has further info about this UAV in Pak army ?how many? and when Pak got these UAV


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## Mercenary

I don't think they are that hard to produce...

The hardest part is fitting state of the art cameras, thermal and night vision cameras on the plane and be able to install the receiver from which the operator can control it....

CENTCOM in Tampa controls the UAV's flying over Afghanistan as a Satellite relies signals to the UAV....

So maybe we got a couple from USA


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## HAIDER

Asian manufacturers are carving themselves out a niche for close- and short-range tactical UAVs. Now they want a larger slice of the global market

Long-standing involvement in the unmanned air vehicle sector by a variety of Asian aerospace and defence manufacturers has seen increasingly ambitious concepts in the high- and medium-altitude class in recent years. To date, however, none of those programmes have progressed beyond the design stage because of their high development costs and a limited customer base beyond immediate national requirements. 







Integrated Dynamics developed the Desert Hawk two - vehicle system for Pakistani army

Instead, Asian manufacturers are proving to be at their most successful in the close- and short-range tactical segments, largely on the back of military requirements and the relative accessibility of the technologies involved in this part of the UAV market. Asian manufacturers are also showing themselves to be emerging as genuine innovators here, led by firms such as Singapore Technologies Aerospace and the South Korean-based Ucon Systems. Out-of-the-box concepts have appeared, including a hand-launched mini-rocket UAV &#8211; designated Firefly &#8211; developed by Integrated Dynamics of Pakistan and released on to the international market late in 2005. 

Positioning play

The emergence of the global UAV market is widely seen by Asia&#8217;s defence and aerospace sectors as presenting an opportunity for leveraging technical capabilities, and positioning for larger roles in the development of an expected global civil UAV systems market. Translating those aspirations into practical industrial programmes, however, is presenting challenges. 

In an unusually revealing presentation at the Unmanned Systems Asia Pacific 2006 conference in Singapore last month, Dr Tan Jiak Kwang, ST Aerospace chief engineer and director, advanced systems, said: &#8220;When we began our UAV business we tried to mirror the vision of our commercial aviation business, which I think we can say we have achieved. ST Aerospace is the largest independent third-party MRO in commercial aviation. So we mirrored that vision and we tried to progress it. But almost immediately we realised it is a tough road ahead of us.&#8221;

ST Aerospace UAV study projects have included almost the full spectrum of air vehicle concepts, ranging from high-altitude, long-endurance to small hand-launched tactical systems. Key programmes include the Fantail vertical take-off and landing short-range UAV, the Skyblade series of hand-launched short-range air vehicles and a larger catapult-launched tactical derivative, and the MAV-1 low observable tactical UAV demonstrator, which is now part of a swarming UAV demonstration effort. 

The company would like to continue to widen its efforts, Tan said, but faces practical challenges ranging from limited airspace access due to Singapore&#8217;s small size through to the reality that &#8220;as a new player, we are competing against many of the big players&#8221;.

ST Aerospace&#8217;s approach to the market has emphasised unconventional configurations Tan said, with a view to exploring and opening up new niches in the overall UAV market. However, that approach has posed its own challenges in that &#8220;with unconventional configurations, the limitation is that we don&#8217;t have enough aerodynamics databases&#8221;.

Prototype development has emphasised commercial-off-the-shelf components to reduce prototyping and production costs. However, &#8220;the use of COTS components has got us into some trouble because some of those are not ruggedised&#8221;. Tan said issues had also emerged over the performance and reliability of COTS components, with this affecting some servo and sensor subsystems, as well as with electromagnetic compatibility and interference, software release and integration of COTS items into an overall architecture.

The emphasis on unconventional designs has also meant that there has been a lack of suitable subsystems that could be adapted for use, with problems including size, weight, cost and availability. This led to requirements for ST Aerospace to develop its own flight-control computer and sensor board, and payload pan/tilt mechanisms, while datalinks were required to be extensively customised. 

Even with these technical hurdles being resolved, there remains the practical problem of ensuring that systems developed meet potential user expectations, Tan said. A key lesson is that &#8220;UAV developments require the co-learning of the user&#8221;.

Tactical systems

The focus on tactical requirements by many of Asia&#8217;s UAV developers reflects the ongoing modernisation of defence forces across the region and the benefits that such systems can bring to the modern battlefield. As well as the new ST Aerospace designs unveiled at Asian Aerospace last month, significant new systems recently unveiled within the region include a vertical take-off and landing vehicle by Ucon Systems, and two hand-launched UAVs developed by Integrated Dynamics with a third, a micro-UAV, in development. 

Integrated Dynamics started work on the Desert Hawk in late 2003 in response to Pakistani army requirements, with a prototype first flying in late 2004. While the configuration has close parallels to the L-3 Communications-BAI Aerosystems Javelin, Integrated Dynamics says the design evolved independently, the air vehicle intended to be able to perform both powered and unpowered flight, with both internal-combustion and electric- engine options available. Endurance is around 2h. 







The Firefly mini-rocket UAV offers 8s flying time

A standard Desert Hawk system, says Integrated Dynamics, comprises two air vehicles and a common portable ground control station. The two-air vehicle baseline is intended to support operations in environments where line-of-sight datalinks encounter terrain-masking problems, with communications relay-based missions demonstrated as part of the flight trials programme during 2005.

Integrated Dynamics began development of the Firefly mini-rocket UAV in late 2004 in response to Pakistani army operational requirements for a high-speed, short-range observation system that could be used in the high-altitude environments of northern Pakistan. A basic system costs around $3,000 and comprises four rockets, launcher, a carry case, datalink and a PDA-based ground control station. 

The rocket UAV uses commercially available miniature solid-fuel engines that provide a flight time of 8s, with the air vehicle covering 800-1,000m (2,600-3,300ft) before disintegrating on impact with the ground. The rocket airframe is made of PVC plastic with snap-on glassfibre fins for stabilisation. The payload is a fixed focal-length disposable CCD video camera and a 1.5Ghz L-band datalink. Flight testing for the system began in mid-2005.

Subsystems used in the Firefly are also supporting development of a hand-launched micro-UAV, with flight testing about to start. That system is based around an 200mm (8in) flying wing made of vacuum-moulded plastic. Endurance is expected to be around 30min. Range is forecast at 1km (0.5nm).

Integrated Dynamics says the bulk of its avionics and mission systems, including data and communications links, have been developed in-house. However, for its smaller UAVs, it is working with Colarado-based UAV Flight Systems to meet autopilot requirements. Development work in the tactical segment, Integrated Dynamics says, offers the company potential market as a supplier of subsystems and components &#8211; even airframes &#8211; to more established UAV manufacturers and users and this market is being pursued in parallel to full systems development.

A parallel opportunity is seen in supplying UAV subsystems to other nascent supplier nations, with Integrated Dynamics particularly targeting the United Arab Emirates as a customer given that nation&#8217;s aspirations of becoming a major UAV supplier in the medium to long term. A similar market strategy is being pursued by Ucon Systems, which has carved out a niche role as the primary supplier of ground control station expertise to the UAE air force&#8217;s UAV research and technology centre (Flight International, 13-19 December 2005). 

Ucon Systems has its origins with a group of former Korea Aerospace Industries experts who worked on that firm&#8217;s Night Intruder 300 tactical UAV development programme and later set up their own company in 2001 to explore alternative UAV concepts.

Hand launched

The company&#8217;s initial focus was a hand-launched, close-range UAV, designated Remote Eye (Remoeye) 06, and the commercialisation of the Korea Aerospace Research Institute&#8217;s Durumi long-endurance, low-altitude small UAV. The company has since unveiled another hand-launched system, designated Remoeye 02, which is in service with the UAE special forces. The company hopes for a production contract this year from the UAE army for fielding of Remoeye 06 to regular units.

Late last year Ucon Systems unveiled a development programme for its H120 vertical take-off and landing UAV, with the first prototype starting remotely operated flights in August 2005. The UAV has a 3m main rotor blade with top speed forecast at 65kt (120km/h). Maximum take-off weight is 120kg (265lb), including a 30kg payload. 

The air vehicle is intended to operate over a 50km radius with an endurance of around 2h. Development of a fully autonomous version of the vehicle is under way, with the system expected to be production-ready in the second quarter this year.

VTOL legacy

VTOL concepts have a particular role in the Asian market context. Efforts by the wider global UAV community to develop and open up a civil UAV market have been heavily influenced by the commercial success of the Yamaha RMAX series of unmanned agricultural helicopters, originally developed in Japan. That UAV family has since gone on to be used by scientific and industrial research organisations around the world as an off-the-shelf testbed and flight platform for their own autonomous guidance, payload and mission systems.

Japanese domestic requirements remain the largest civil UAV market globally. Total unmanned agricultural helicopters registered by Japanese authorities for use domestically reached 2,005 in 2005, with the bulk of these built by Yamaha. In 2004 the Japanese market trendline also saw the number of UAVs involved in crop spraying surpass the number of manned helicopters used in that same role. 

Yamaha&#8217;s success however, is now also highlighting the challenges of technology proliferation as UAV development becomes more commonplace across Asian nations. In January, Japanese police raided the offices of the parent Yamaha Motor as part of an ongoing investigation into the alleged export of nine RMAX series unmanned air vehicles to China since 2001 via a company called Beijing BVE Technology. 

In a statement issued on 23 January, Takashi Kajikawa, president of Yamaha Motor, acknowledged that the company has been &#8220;placed under investigation by the Shizuoka Prefecture Police, Fukuoka Prefecture Police and Nagoya Regional Customs.... It has been alleged that Yamaha Motor is in violation of Japan&#8217;s foreign exchange and foreign trade laws regarding the export of unmanned helicopters to China.&#8221;
(Tried best for pictures but image didn't work, but still can view if you click on URL, or webby can u check the problem)

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## HAIDER

Pakistani unmanned air vehicle manufacturer Integrated Dynamics has confirmed that it has supplied UAVs to Libya within the past two years, although the deal may have been limited to the supply of airframes rather than complete systems.

The deal appears to have been for a limited number of Integrated Dynamics Border Eagle Mk II systems, although the company declines to confirm this other than acknowledging that the air vehicle type is its primary export platform.

Chief executive Raja Sabir Khan told Flight that within the past two years the company had made deliveries to users in Australia, Libya, South Korea, Spain and the USA. "Most of the orders to the countries mentioned were placed, and delivered, during this period," he says. Khan declined to provide details on the end user for the Border Eagle systems, citing restrictions by Pakistani military authorities.

"The Border Eagle Mk II appears to be our most popular UAV airframe and mostly these have been exported to various customers," he says. "I would put the numbers at approximately 15-20 airframes." The total value of exports to the five nominated countries was $300,000, he adds.

Integrated Dynamics is pursuing a business strategy of supplying low-cost components rather than full systems, Khan says, adding: "Most competitors have a limited range and are reluctant to make their airframes available outside of complete system sales."

The international defence equipment sales embargo on Libya was lifted at the end of 2003, but the country is still identified by US authorities as a sensitive destination.


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## EagleEyes

Can anybody confirm that Pakistan Army has the Predator?


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## EagleEyes

*Pakistan looks to develop indigenous UAV capability *
Pakistan-based Integrated Defense Systems (IDS) and Advanced Computing and Engineering Solutions say they anticipate at least another 18 months of spiral development on their respective Eagle Eye PI, Eagle Eye PII and Huma-1 tactical unmanned air vehicle systems before national army production decisions are due.

Both firms, which exhibited at DSEi as part of Pakistan's National Engineering and Scientific Commission, say they are regularly conducting demonstrations for the Pakistani army in response to ongoing requests for capability modifications. A final statement of requirement is still to be finalised by the service, with Islamabad currently taking delivery of 12 Galileo Avionica Falco tactical UAVs to meet its urgent operational requirements.

The parallel indigenous development efforts are intended to ensure ongoing national technical and manufacturing capability in the UAV sector. The truck-launched Huma-1 has been flying since 2003 and is intended to operate as a battlefield surveillance and reconnaissance asset. 

It has a 14.4ft (4.4m) wing span, 130kg (285lb) maximum take-off weight, zero length take-off using a rocket booster and is recovered by parachute. IDS says that, in addition to Huma-1, it is now working on a larger derivative that will provide increased payload and endurance but will remain within the tactical air vehicle category.

The Eagle Eye PI/II systems are both runway dependent. With a 16.5ft span and 130kg MTOW, the former flew for the first time in 2002, while the 18.9ft span, 175kg PII followed in 2005. All three Pakistani designs use a high-wing monoplane airframe with twin tail booms and a pusher propeller.

Pakistan looks to develop indigenous UAV capability


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## fatman17

the predator was requested but refused by the usa. too early to start selling that technology to other countries.

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## F.O.X

> Can anybody confirm that Pakistan Army has the Predator?



i think Pakistan dont have Predator, the UAV used over Lal Masjid was Suspected to be LUNA. or Nishan.


Regards
Wilco

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## F.O.X

*Here is the list of UAV's used by Pakistan.*

-Nishan Mk1* (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Vision MK1 * (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Vision MK2 * (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Nishan TJ 1000* (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Tornado * (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-LUNA

-Border Eagle* (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Hornet *(indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Hawk *(indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Hawk Mk1 *(indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Shadow * (indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-Vector *(indigenous ) by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*

-JASSOS *by SATUMA Pakistan*

-Bazz  *(indigenous ) by (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex)*

-Ababbel  * (indigenous ) by (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex)*

-Bravo  *(indigenous ) by ( Air Weapon Complex)*



Regards
Wilco

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## F.O.X

*N I S H A N M K - I I by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)
*


The NISHAN MK-II is part of the INTEGRATED DYNAMICS HS-UAV series of high - speed aerial targets/decoys representing the next generation of air defense training and simulation systems. 

The NISHAN MK-II is piston-engine powered with a 240 cc powerplant. Proven over many hours of field use, the airframes demonstrate a high degree of modularity, and common features that allow interchangeability of parts and easy interface of payloads and operational electronics. Electronic payloads and subsystems include video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming modules.

A complete system consists of 10 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem.

Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*N I S H A N - T J - 1 0 0 0 by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The NISHAN TJ-1000 is part of the INTEGRATED DYNAMICS HS-UAV series of high - speed aerial targets/decoys representing the next generation of air defense training and simulation systems. 

The TJ1000 has a mini-turbojet engine and its thrust-to-weight ratio and performance make it a unique system. The airframes are modular and common features allow interchangeability of parts and easy interface of payloads and operational electronics. Electronic payloads and subsystems include video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming modules.

A complete system consists of 6 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*T O R N A D O by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The TORNADO is a lightweight, high-speed, mini-turbojet decoy system with autonomous navigation, pre-strike decoy and fire & forget capabilities.

A TORNADO system consists of 8 decoy aircraft, a pneumatic catapult launcher system and a portable ground station for pre-programming mission profiles. The TORNADO is designed for decoy missions where simulation of actual fighter aircraft is required and the ground control stations provides simultaneous multiple-vehicle flight capability with a range in excess of 200 km. 



Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*B O R D E R - E A G L E - M K - I I by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The BORDER EAGLE is a low cost, low altitude surveillance system ideal for multi-mission capabilities.

Manufactured currently in its MK-II version, it is designed for area surveillance and perimeter control. It has autonomous navigation capabilities with complete mission recording on a Laptop PC moving map display.

With an endurance in excess of 3 hours, and its GSP-100 micro-PTZ gyro-stabilized electro-optic payload, it can be equipped for advanced detection tasks.

Detachable fuselage pods provide easy installation of varied payloads. The system is easily maintainable and a two-man crew is required for operations and deployment.

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*H O R N E T by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The HORNET UAV System combines field-proven airframes, with aerospace-quality composite construction, and the latest in microelectronic Flight Control and GPS navigation. This UAV has evolved over several years of field testing into a reliable, tactical surveillance system combined with our unique C4I systems to bring MIL-standard reliability to an affordable level. In the surveillance UAV role, the HORNET&#8217;s refined aerodynamics allow for extended loiter operation over targets. Pre-programmed 'Smart Flight' routines reduce operator workload and improve aircraft survivability. Compact and mobile - a complete HORNET system can be delivered on-site and is ready for operation in a short time span.

Ideally suited for tactical applications to 80 km, the HORNET UAV system has proven its multi-mission capabilities and reliability in a series of field trials ranging from experimental electronic payload test-beds, surveillance platforms and aerial targets.

The basic cantilever platform and composite structure provides a stable aerodynamic and payload-carrying configuration for the most demanding tasks. The option of conventional landing, or a parachute recovery system, greatly reduce operator training and improve aircraft survivability.

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco

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## F.O.X

*H A W K M K - V by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)
*



The HAWK MK-V UAV System combines field-proven airframes, with aerospace-quality composite construction, and the latest in microelectronic Flight Control and GPS navigation. This UAV has evolved from several years of field testing, of the proven HORNET 80 km range system, into a reliable, tactical surveillance system combined with our unique C4I systems to bring MIL-standard reliability to an affordable level. In the surveillance UAV role, the HAWK&#8217;s refined aerodynamics allow for extended loiter operation over targets. Pre-programmed 'Smart Flight' routines reduce operator workload and improve aircraft survivability. Compact and mobile - a complete HAWK system can be delivered on-site and is ready for operation in a short time span. 

Ideally suited for short range tactical applications from 80-120 km, the HAWK UAV system has proven its multi-mission capabilities and reliability in a series of field trials ranging from experimental electronic payload test-beds, surveillance platforms and aerial targets. 

The basic cantilever platform and composite structure provides a stable aerodynamic and payload-carrying configuration for the most demanding tasks. Wing hard-points and large access hatches enable different electronics or surveillance modules to be carried on demand. Light and fast, the HAWK series of aircraft can be powered by engines ranging from 15-25 bhp. A 4.25m (14ft.) wingspan and large payload area easily accommodate infrared, low-light and visible color video systems and still cameras. A low radar signature and refined aerodynamic design allows for extended operation over targets with minimal detection. 

The option of conventional landing, or a parachute recovery system, greatly reduce operator training and improve aircraft survivability. 



Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*V I S I O N M K - I by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The VISION MK- I systems can function-over-the-horizon in autonomous and remotely piloted modes and are suited for patrol and extended surveillance missions.

In field operations, the VISION&#8217;s advanced flight control and navigation system can be preprogrammed to autonomously patrol a specified area or photograph multiple targets. This relieves the operator from demanding piloting duties. Complex payloads can be easily accommodated. The VISION MK- I is an ideal system trainer for BVR UAV operations out to 50 km ranges.

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*V I S I O N M K - I I by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)
*



The VISION MK-II is a larger airframe in the VISION system that is designed to be a low-cost, stand-alone UAV system element.

Capable of operations to a range of 120 km, the VISION MK-II offers a simple single-boom layout and cantilever high-wing configuration for experimental testing of payloads. The reliability and user-friendly characteristics of the platform make it easily adaptable to all our common ground control and tracking systems.

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a portable GCS-1200 or the more robust GCS-2000 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*S H A D O W M K - I by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*




The SHADOW UAV system caters to the medium-sized UAV/RPV market. The SHADOW system offers modularity, ruggedness and accessibility that is second to none in field operations. With payload capabilities in the 40 kg range, and a nominal price tag, the competitive edge is obvious. The SHADOW airframes use bullet-proof Kevlar molded fuselage pans, Kevlar/Graphite reinforced equipment bays and side stress panels and high-tensile steel aramid-reinforced landing gears. A variety of payloads can be supported with the available onboard power supplies. 

The SHADOW UAV systems were specially developed to cover a customer requirement for a family of modular composite airframes that could provide tactical surveillance capabilities in the 160-200 km range. Based on a classical twin-boom pusher layout, the aircraft can be equipped with a variety of stock or modified power plants, including tuned-exhaust and belt-driven modifications. All models support real-time video and data modules and flight avionics for at least 200 km LOS range applications. 

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a GCS-2000 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-2000 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-2000 Ground Support Equipment subsystem.


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*V E C T O R by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The VECTOR UAV system caters to the medium-sized UAV/RPV market. The VECTOR system offers modularity, ruggedness and accessibility that is second to none in field operations. With payload capabilities in the 40 kg range, and a nominal price tag, the competitive edge is obvious. The VECTOR airframes use bullet-proof Kevlar molded fuselage pans, Kevlar/Graphite reinforced equipment bays and side stress panels and high-tensile steel aramid-reinforced landing gears. A variety of payloads can be supported with the available onboard power supplies.

The VECTOR UAV systems were specially developed to cover a customer requirement for a family of modular composite airframes that could provide tactical surveillance capabilities in the 160-200 km range. Based on a classical twin-boom pusher layout, the aircraft can be equipped with a variety of stock or modified power plants, including tuned-exhaust and belt-driven modifications. All models support real-time video and data modules and flight avionics for at least 200 km LOS range applications.

A complete system consists of 4 UAV&#8217;s; a GCS-2000 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-2000 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-2000 Ground Support Equipment subsystem. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*JASSOS by SATUMA Pakistan*



Jassos UAV System is a day/night autonomously guided UAV system capable of performing surveillance up to a distance of 200 kms. 


Jassos has been specifically designed to meet the need of reconnaissance and target identification. Jassos is a shoulder wing monoplane in a pusher configuration, powered by a two stroke air cooled engine. It is a robust and modular design which eases logistics and has a quick deployment time. It is a low operation and maintenance system.

Jassos Specifications :

Airframe Geometry Shoulder Wing Monoplane
*Wing Span--* 11&#8217;-4&#8221;
*Wing Area --*17 sq. ft.
*Length --* 9&#8217;-2&#8221;
*Max Take off weight-- *70 kgs
*Payload--- *10~15 kgs
*Power Plant --*15~18 hp two stroke
*Speed (Cruise) --*100 kph
*Speed (Dash)--* 130 kph
*Speed (Loiter)--* 90 kph
*Live Reconnaissance --*60 kms
*Range One Way-- *300 kms
*Range Return --*150 kms
*Fuel Capacity--* 22 ltrs
*Endurance -*- ~3-1/2 hours
*Operational Contingent-*- 4 Personnel
*Typical Payload *--Camera on a steerable pod 
*Recovery---* Wheeled Landing ,Parachute

Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*E X P L O R E R by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The EXPLORER is a more advanced civilian UAV system, with an operational range of 20 km, and is designed for more advanced civilian or scientific research programs that require a proven platform as an equipment or sensor test bed. Able to operate out to altitudes of over 6000 feet (2000 m) with an economical and compact IC engine powerplant, the EXPLORER challenges the competition with its refined aerodynamics, advanced flight control systems and highly developed data links. Supplied with our GSP-100 gyro-stabilized PTZ camera system and telemetry downlink, the EXPLORER can stay in the air for over 4 hours on 5 liters of fuel.


The EXPLORER is launched and recovered by conventional landing and take-off from un-prepared grass or dirt strips. The airframe can also be modified for vehicle rooftop lanches and belly landings with a Kevlar-reinforced fuselage belly pan. The simplicity and ease of operation greatly reduce operator training and improve aircraft survivability. 

A complete system consists of 2 EXPLORER UAV's with GSP-100 payloads; the GCS-1200 Ground Control Station with programming and moving map mission display software; a DSS (Digital Spread Spectrum) telecommand link; antennas, cables and operational spares. 


Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

*R O V E R by (Integrated Dynamics Pakistan)*



The ROVER is a pioneering effort to create an affordable civilian scientific and ENG (Electronic News Gathering) UAV system, with an operational range in excess of 5 km, and is designed for the researcher, academic professional or news crew needing information quickly and reliably. Able to operate out to altitudes of over 2000 feet (600 m) with a noiseless electric propulsion module the ROVER is a robust UAV system. Its compact autopiloting system takes the hassle out of programming and calibration. Supplied with a PTZ camera system and telemetry downlink, the ROVER can stay in the air for over 1 hour.

Weighing less than 5 kg, the ROVER is hand-launched and recovered by a deep stall landing making it available and responsive on short notice. The simplicity and ease of operation greatly reduce operator training and improve aircraft survivability. 

A complete system consists of 4 ROVER UAV&#8217;s; A laptop PC Ground Control Station with programming and moving map mission display software; a DSS (Digital Spread Spectrum) telecommand link; antennas, cables and operational spares.



Regards
Wilco


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## F.O.X

I love these Pakistani UAVs, Damn Beautiful Especially Nishan & TORNADO .

I got lots of more Stuff will post tomorrow, Regarding Control Stations, GPS, Cameras, Video & Data Down link, Tele command system, etc.

Regards
Wilco


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## HAIDER

@WILCO check my link and if you can retrieve the pictures. I am unable to cuz of format problem.
Here is the link.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/7120-asian-uav-industry-grand-plans.html


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## F.O.X

> @WILCO check my link and if you can retrieve the pictures. I am unable to cuz of format problem.
> Here is the link.


With Pleasure.
-------------------------------
*Integrated Dynamics Pakistan developed the Desert Hawk two - vehicle system for Pakistani army*


*
The Firefly mini-rocket UAV offers 8s flying time*

Integrated Dynamics began development of the Firefly mini-rocket UAV in late 2004 in response to Pakistani army operational requirements for a high-speed, short-range observation system that could be used in the high-altitude environments of northern Pakistan. A basic system costs around $3,000 and comprises four rockets, launcher, a carry case, datalink and a PDA-based ground control station.

The rocket UAV uses commercially available miniature solid-fuel engines that provide a flight time of 8s, with the air vehicle covering 800-1,000m (2,600-3,300ft) before disintegrating on impact with the ground. The rocket airframe is made of PVC plastic with snap-on glassfibre fins for stabilisation. The payload is a fixed focal-length disposable CCD video camera and a 1.5Ghz L-band datalink. Flight testing for the system began in mid-2005.

Subsystems used in the Firefly are also supporting development of a hand-launched micro-UAV, with flight testing about to start. That system is based around an 200mm (8in) flying wing made of vacuum-moulded plastic. Endurance is expected to be around 30min. Range is forecast at 1km (0.5nm).

Integrated Dynamics says the bulk of its avionics and mission systems, including data and communications links, have been developed in-house. However, for its smaller UAVs, it is working with Colarado-based UAV Flight Systems to meet autopilot requirements. Development work in the tactical segment, Integrated Dynamics says, offers the company potential market as a supplier of subsystems and components &#8211; even airframes &#8211; to more established UAV manufacturers and users and this market is being pursued in parallel to full systems development.



-----------------------------------------
Regards
Wilco


----------



## echo 1

I had no idea that Pakistan could produce this many UAVs in such a short time awsome I am really likeing the Desert HawkII


----------



## F.O.X

> I had no idea that Pakistan could produce this many UAVs in such a short time awsome



Never Underestimate Pakistan,  


Regards
Wilco


----------



## amunhotep

wow!!!! man..... i am impressed...

india needs to learn from pakistan.

are any of the companies manufacturing UAVs *listed* in any pakistani stock exchange ??? or for that matter any exchange ???


----------



## SOLDIER

wow thats great but you haven't show the pics. of two predator which was given by USA. Which is used in LAL masjid operation as told by GEO tv.


----------



## SOLDIER

this one is not PAKISTANI but similar to that given to PAKISTAN.


----------



## Neo

Nice posts Wilco.  
I've repped you up!


----------



## F.O.X

> are any of the companies manufacturing UAVs listed in any pakistani stock exchange ??? or for that matter any exchange ???



no there are no Companies listed on Stock Exchange, If any one want to buy it he would have to contact GoP, if Gov approves the deal goes on if not the deal is finished.

Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

> you haven't show the pics. of two predator which was given by USA. Which is used in LAL masjid operation as told by GEO tv.


As i have told before that Pakistan do not use Predator, the report by Geo was not correct. 

i have give the list on first page of all the uav's Pakistan use.



> Nice posts Wilco.
> I've repped you up!


Tnx. 


Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

> r u Dreaming



i didn't Understand what you said, At least clear your question while asking it.

Regards
Wilco


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Any information on whether any of the private companies are involved in the MALE program in Turkey?


----------



## F.O.X

> Any information on whether any of the private companies are involved in the MALE program in Turkey?



Dont have any info about that, 

Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

*F L I G H T C O N T R O L S Y S T E M S *

INTEGRATED DYNAMICS flight control and autopiloting systems employ the latest in micro-electronics and guidance technology. Advanced features and reliable performance are offered in surprisingly powerful and affordable avionics packages. Four models are offered, ranging from simple two-axis electronic stabilization to fully autonomous, GPS-based integrated flight control systems.

*A P - 2 0 0 0*


The AP- 2000 is specially designed for flight control of low-cost or expendable UAV's and aerial targets. The AP-2000 system offers superior performance without the complexity and cost normally associated with full-blown UAV autopilot systems. The autopilot provides conventional wing leveling, and height- lock features in a compact package and is easy to calibrate, with its AUTOTRIM feature, for a variety of airframes.
*
A P - 5 0 0 0*


The AP-5000 provides the conventional wing leveling and height lock features of the AP-2000 with the addition of a GPS-based return-home and heading module in a compact package which is easy to calibrate for a variety of airframes not requiring the learning-curve of more complex auto-piloting systems.


*IFCS-6000 (Integrated Autonomous Flight Control System)*


The IFCS-6000 provides precise and stable flight control that greatly simplifies UAV flight operaton. By utilizing 'Smart&#8217; electronics, solid-state gyros and inertial sensors, our IFCS-

6000 system offers superior performance without the complexity and cost normally associated with competing UAV autopilot systems. Total solid-state design significantly reduces electrical power requirements while increasing reliability and performance. 
A variety of airframe types can be accommodated without complicated adjustments and calibration usually required with conventional autopilot systems. The IFCS-6000 accepts command inputs from a laptop PC allowing UAV's to operate autonomously or under remote operator control. Latitude, longitude, speed, heading, altitude, time, date, and waypoint

status, as well as video imagery, can all be continuously transmitted via data downlinks to ground control stations . Ground display requirements are minimal and require no more than a simple PC or laptop computer. 


*IFCS-7000 (Integrated Autonomous Flight Control System)*


The IFCS-7000 is INTEGRATED DYNAMICS next-generation UAV flight control system designed for military users. It incorporates all the features of the IFCS-6000 and provides 
the added versatility of a 6DOF Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) and GPS/INS interface. Sensor outputs can be viewed using our SENSORVIEW software. The IFCS-7000 also allows interfacing of payloads and on-board systems into a compact &#8216;smart&#8217; electronics package and makes the UAV more intelligent by performing demanding tasks without external operator intervention. The IFCS-7000 also provides interface data for controlling our ATPS-1200 and ATPS-2000 Antenna Tracking & Positioning Systems. The IFCS-7000 is a low cost integrated flight control system incorporating navigation, stability, and control. These capabilities include airspeed hold, altitude hold, turn coordination, GPS navigation, autonomous takeoff and landing (with the LARS-1700 Auto-Land system). Extensive data logging and manual overrides are also supported, as is a highly functional command buffer. All feedback loop gains and flight parameters are user programmable. Expansion options, in the form of several customized modules, are available. A PC based mission simulator is also available for the IFCS-7000.

*
The IFCS-6000 and IFCS-7000 share the following common features: *


-Completely autonomous operation 
-Auto takeoff and land capability* 
-3 microprocessors and dual sensors for increased redundancy** 
-On-the-Fly mission changes** 
-Includes all sensors required for complete airframe stabilization, control and navigation 
-Surface Mount components used for reduced size and increased reliability 
-Multiple waypoint GPS navigation linked to INS/IMU** 
-Manually piloted, Manually directed and autonomous flight modes 
-Supports flaps, flaperons, elevons, v-tail, split rudders, and flap/aileron mixing 
-User programmable feedback gains and flight parameters 
-Low battery warning both on the ground and in flight 
-User programmable error handlers for loss of GPS signal, loss of RC signal, loss of data link,low battery voltage. 
6 DOF IMU . 
3 Rate Gyros & 3 accelerometers. 
2-channel data-logging 

* Supported with expansion module for IFCS-7000 only. 

_** IFCS-7000 only. _

Expansion Module Options: 

-Barometric Altitude Control System (BACS) 
-Barometric Altitude Hold Module (AHS) 
-Engine Management System (EMS) 
-Telecommand interfaces up to C & X Bands 
-Radar Altimeter Module (RAM) 
-Laser Range-finding Module (LRM) 
-SIGINT Module 
-ELINT Module 
-Payload Control Module (RECON) 
-Communications Repeater Module (COM-R) 
-Communications Jammer Module (COM-J) 
-Dual Power Source Backup Module (DPM) 
-MDI Module &#8211; Acoustic Radar 
-Mission Analysis Module (MAM) 
-Flight Data Recorder Module (FDR) 
-Multi-UAV Control Module 
-AHRS module. 
-Night Ops Module (NOPS) 
-Auto Land Module &#8211; (LARS-1700 
-Auto Take off Module 


Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

*T E L E C O M M A N D & C O N T R O L S Y S T E M S*

INTEGRATED DYNAMICS Telecommand and Control systems are available in various configurations to meet mission requirements. Use of modular components and field-proven designs provide systems that can be easily adapted to suit specific vehicles. Cost is minimized and system reliability and ease of operation are assured. Display configurations can be changed to accommodate various mission or aircraft requirements. 

Command and control of payloads including EO & Gyro Stabilized Platforms, payload actuation and other operations can be easily managed by single or multiple operators. Our telecommand systems can be supplied for single or multiple UAV operation. Compact and cost effective consoles are available for rapid deployment and expandable UAV operations. Complete C4I centres can be installed in small ground-based or airborne vehicles. Electrical requirements are minimal and systems accommodate a variety of voltage sources. In mobile applications, battery operation can be used to eliminate the need for an AC generator. 

Our MTBM (Multi Task Battery Management) systems can be utilized for all power supply system analysis, management and maintenance. Contact us with specific battery management requirements. 


*PORTABLE TELECOMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM (P.T.C.S.)*


The PTCS is available in various standard and custom configurations for control of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, Target Drones, Expendable UAV's and Missile Simulations. These systems can operate in stand-alone mode or be easily interfaced to portable laptop computers for graphical display of vehicle flight data and on-board sensors.

*IRGX (Integrated Radio Guidance Transmitter)*


The IRGX is designed for short range control of radio guided drones and medium sized unmanned aerial vehicles. It can be used for External Piloting operations. It features ruggedized construction and a high power UHF frequency synthesised radio transmitter capable of controlling unmanned aircraft at distances of several miles. The IRGX can be utilized to simplify launch and recovery operations of large unmanned vehicles. It is also well-suited for flight operation of target drones and short range radio guided aircraft. The IRGX and PTCS can be used in conjunction with all INTEGRATED DYNAMICS autopilots and can be configured for override by another IRGX, during launch or recovery operations, for automatic flight mode control. Multi-channel capability can be extended up to 36 independent channels for control of various mission payloads. 


Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

*V I D E O & D A T A D O W N L I N K S*

INTEGRATED DYNAMICS manufactures state-of-the-art microwave analog FM and COFDM data and video transmission systems using OEM modules for custom applications. 

Our video and data links feature full VSB filtering and spurious frequency rejection capability. Complete support on engineering and commissioning of systems is available. 

A complete line of antennas, receivers, software, in-line linear amplifiers and pre-amplifiers is also offered making the systems ideal for UAV&#8217;s, UGV&#8217;s, wireless data applications, surveillance, event coverage, experimental applications, monitoring, and security. 

All systems are compatible with standard B&W, Color, PAL and industry standard NTSC.

*Video & Data transmitter *

*
Video & Data Receiver *



Regards
Wilco


----------



## EagleEyes

> As i have told before that Pakistan do not use Predator, the report by Geo was not correct.
> 
> i have give the list on first page of all the uav's Pakistan use.



Thank you for the clarification. Thats what i thought.


----------



## EagleEyes

Galileo Avionica Falco UAV.
One of these beasts from Italy is now delivered to Pakistan Army.


----------



## EagleEyes

[YOUTUBE]




Falco UAV video


----------



## IceCold

So when we have the capability of building our own UAV systems and that too very good ones, why do we have to buy it from italy? Isnt it waiste of resources? We can spend the same money on the development and upgadition of our existing projects. Or did it come under some sort of milltary aid which i doubt though.


----------



## F.O.X

> So when we have the capability of building our own UAV systems and that too very good ones, why do we have to buy it from italy? Isnt it waiste of resources? We can spend the same money on the development and upgadition of our existing projects. Or did it come under some sort of milltary aid which i doubt though.


We are building our own UAV systems from a long time, most of the people dont know about it so they thought that we are not doing any work on it, we have achieved a milestone by building "Nishan" & "JASSOS" UVA series.
Right know wea re working on "Nishan-X-1000" an high altitude, long range, long endurance UAV with twin piston engines & improved infrared cameras & more advanced data link system compared to those we used in NISHAN series.

I hope it will be enough for u.


Regards
Wilco


----------



## Ababeel

Here is a question from me:
Is any other country has a UAV like US "PREDATOR" which not only provides the intelligence but actually destroys the target on receiving signals from its control center?


----------



## Sena Lee

Ababeel said:


> Here is a question from me:
> Is any other country has a UAV like US "PREDATOR" which not only provides the intelligence but actually destroys the target on receiving signals from its control center?



I think India and Turkey operate the IAI Heron which is in the same class as the Predator.


----------



## EagleEyes

Sena Lee said:


> I think India and Turkey operate the IAI Heron which is in the same class as the Predator.



Same class, but cannot engage targets.

Heron is very similar to Falco. Not sure if it is able to provide near-real time target image processing like Falco does.


----------



## su-47

Sena Lee said:


> I think India and Turkey operate the IAI Heron which is in the same class as the Predator.



heron is a UAV, not UCAV like predator


----------



## Sena Lee

Could the Heron be modified for engagements like the Predator if needed?.


----------



## su-47

I dunno, but it is possible since heron is a large UAV.


----------



## EagleEyes

Sena Lee said:


> Could the Heron be modified for engagements like the Predator if needed?.



May be, but it is not meant for it.



su-47 said:


> I dunno, but it is possible since heron is a large UAV.



Stop making generalizations.


----------



## IceCold

WILCO said:


> I hope it will be enough for u.
> 
> 
> Regards
> Wilco



Yes it is Wilco but the other part of my question still remains unanswered. I was saying that if we are able to produce hight quality UAV's like you suggested then why are we aquiring it from italy?


----------



## F.O.X

> if we are able to produce hight quality UAV's like you suggested then why are we aquiring it from italy?



Bcoz we need to study some foreign systems to improve our system with some variation from westren countries, basically we needed to study the data link system of Falco(if you take as a research UAV not as a military UAV). bcoz in Nishan uav X series we were having troubls in high altitudes in data linking system. so we needed to study the data link system of another UAV.

this UAV was not obtained for reconcission it was for research.

hope you are satisfied now

but still you want to know any thing else, just let me know.

Regards
Wilco


----------



## EagleEyes

I would like to confirm what WILCO has said. There will be only 3 Falco acquired, and that is a pretty low ammout for acquiring UAV (At least i think so) for reconnaissance operations. There are much technological edge in Falco, which Pakistan defence industries must learn in order to move forward.


----------



## IceCold

Thanks for clearing it up Wilco and WebMaster.

Regards

IceCold


----------



## F.O.X

possible Specifications of NISHAN-X-1000(Janbaz) UAV developed by Pakistan.
1st test flight to be done in any time in coming two months.

it will be the most advance UAV that Pakistan will have.

*Length --* 25&#8217;-2&#8221;
*Max Take off weight-- *200 kgs
*Payload--- *50~70 kgs
*Power Plant --*78~85 hp 
*Speed (Cruise) --*220 mph
*Speed (Dash)--* 340 mph
*Speed (Loiter)--* 170 mph
*Altitude* :40,000ft
*Live Reconnaissance --*300 mils 
*Range One Way-- *700 mils
*Range Return --*350 mils
*Fuel Capacity--* 80 ltrs
*Endurance -*- ~7-9 hours
*Operational Contingent-*- 6 Personnel
*Typical Payload *-- infrared Camera, Low light day camera ,laser designator, rangefinder, ECM.*
Guidance* :Tracking Remote Controlled and / or pre-programmed autonomous return to base provision GPS-based
*Recovery---* Wheeled Landing ,Parachute


It will be capable of Flying missions like:


+ Real-time Reconnaissance
+ Pre & Post Strike Imagery
+ Artillery Fire Support
+ Electronic Intelligence
+ Border Surveillance
+ Traffic & Crime Monitoring
+ Power Cables Monitoring
+ Search and Rescue Missions
+ Air weapon support


Regards
Wilco


----------



## Sena Lee

Looks impressive, any pictures?


----------



## F.O.X

> Looks impressive, any pictures?


Not yet, but i am trying to get one.


Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

New UAV Tested in _December 31 2007._

*Flamingo UAV by STUMA*


*Name * = Flamingo

*Uses* = Medium Range reconnaissance, surveillance, damage assessment and 
various civil applications & etc.

*Power Plant* =50~60 hp, 4 cylinder, 2 stroke Gasoline Engine

*Dimensions* =Length 5.18m, Wingspan 6.61m (Shoulder Wing Monoplane, twin boom)

*Weight * = Max. takeoff weight 245 kg, Payload 30~35 kg

*Payload* =	EO, customer furnished, IR camera, Classified

*Performance *= Speed: 130 kph, Endurance: 6~8 hr, Ceiling: 12,000~15,000 ft, 

*Range * = 200+ km (Live video)

*Guidence & Tracking* = Remote control, pre-programmed autonomous navigation

*Launch* = Wheeled take off

*Recovery* = Wheeled landing

*GCS * = 2 console, truck mounted

*Data link* = Real time double datalink

*Electric Power* = 28v

====================================================
Another milestone achieved !

congrats to our Scientists & Engineers who made it Happened . 


Regards
Wilco


----------



## F.O.X

Here is the high Quality images of Flamingo Medium Range Tactical UAV made by Pakistan.






Video = http://www.neutek.biz/Media.aspx?ProdID=1


Regards
Wilco


----------



## EagleEyes

Nice!


----------



## Quwa

I wonder if Integrated Dynamics or Satuma will roll out a UAV in league of the IAI Heron or Turkish TIHA; something with a payload of 200-250kg?, etc.

Would be cool if the Pakistani industry one day (soon) began introducing stealthy UAVs similar to the South African Seraph (LINK), but with a internal payload of 4-6 air-to-ground missiles similar to Hellfire or even JAGM...imagine that thing ripping through Indian Airspace and firing AGMs at AWACS on the ground


----------



## Plasma

Impressive!! 

They should paint the ones which will go to the army in white or black, this color is not too good.


----------



## F.O.X

> Impressive!!
> 
> They should paint the ones which will go to the army in white or black, this color is not too good.



It will be in 3 different Schemes i.e. Silver , Black & Blue.



Regards
Wilco


----------



## Plasma

^^ You know everything!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Wilco,

Thx for updating.

What about the Nishaan X (Janbaaz) UAV you mentioned a little while back? Did it get tested? Also I remember reading a while back that Pakistan was participating in the Turkish MALE project - was that a incorrect rumor, or is the collaboration still continuing?


----------



## F.O.X

> What about the Nishaan X (Janbaaz) UAV you mentioned a little while back? Did it get tested?



Nishaan X (Janbaaz) will be tested in mid feb, it is in its finishing phase.



> Also I remember reading a while back that Pakistan was participating in the Turkish MALE project - was that a incorrect rumor, or is the collaboration still continuing?


It is still Continuing.



Regards
Wilco


----------



## Quwa

In the scope of Indigenous UAV (MALE) Development Project, 

The Signing Ceremony concerning cooperation agreement between Turkey (TAI) and Pakistan (AWC), 


The Contract Signing Ceremony between TAI and ASELSAN concerning ASELFLIR 300T payload, 

The Contract Signing Ceremony between TAI and SAVRON&#304;K concerning Data Link System, were done on May 23, 2007 during IDEF07 Defense Industry Fair. 

With aim of meeting the reconnaissance, surveillance and intelligence requirements of the Turkish Armed Forces in the scope of Strategic UAV, the signing ceremony between SSM and TAI concerning the leadership of TAI in the strategic UAV program was done on May 23, 2007 during IDEF07 Defense Industry Fair. 

UAV Projects Signature Ceremonies (May 23rd, 2007)


----------



## HAIDER

ISLAMABAD - Feb 26: Chief of Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani being briefed on a locally developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle on Tuesday.
Too aerodynamic and advance looking.

ISLAMABAD, Feb 26 (APP): Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on Tuesday said Pakistan Army is fully capable of defeating any threat posed to the country&#8217;s security.Addressing Officers, Junior Commissioned Officers, Non Commissioned Officers and Jawans during his visit to a field area, Chief of Army Staff emphasized the need to remain fully committed to further enhancing their capability to meet the challenges effectively.
Earlier, Chief of Army Staff visited Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Complex where he was briefed about the UAV System inducted in the Army. Chief of Army Staff witnessed the demonstration flight and appreciated the training standards achieved by the troops.
app - Pakistan Army fully capable to thwart threat to countrys security: COAS


----------



## blain2

Its actually the German LUNA (Tactical UAV with 4 hour endurance and a Synthetic Aperture Radar) acquired by the Pakistan Army last year.

Here is a detailed pic:
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/images/Big&#37;20Images/26-2-08-7.JPG

The LUNA medium-range reconnaissance and surveillance UAV system has been in service with the German Army since March 2000. - Army Technology


----------



## fatman17

Geo is reporting that pakistan has successfully tested a locally manufactured un-manned aerial vehicle (UAV).
CoAS Gen Kiyani witnessed the test


----------



## fatman17

Indigenously made UAV makes successful test flight 

ISLAMABAD, Mar 20 (APP): Pakistan on Thursday successfully conducted a final test flight of its indigenously developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) &#8220;Uqaab&#8221;, said an ISPR news release. 

The Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, senior armed forces officers and scientists witnessed the test. 

The flight data indicates that all design parameters have been successfully validated. The performance of Uqaab can be compared to any of modern state of the art UAV in its category. Today&#8217;s successful flight test was preceded by a series of trials in 2007. 

The successful flight test is a reflection of Pakistan&#8217;s technical prowess in the field of UAV technology and a tribute to the dedication and professionalism of the scientists and engineers. 

It also reflects Pakistan&#8217;s continued efforts for self reliance in the field of defence. The COAS congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success and said that they had shown their versatile capabilities by delivering on a new and complex technology of UAVs. This would go a long way in strengthening Pakistan&#8217;s defence.


----------



## Plasma

Yeah i heard the news as well. 

Looks like we are getting pretty good at making UAVs, now i think the next step would be to make something with capabilities matching the US Predator.


----------



## EagleEyes

If i am not wrong. Uqaab is basically Eagle UAV which has been enhanced and had some work going on for a while.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> The performance of Uqaab can be compared to any of modern state of the art UAV in its category.



Certainly, but what "category" are we talking about exactly? Short range, medium range, Predator (highly unlikely)? 

Though given that various other private Pakistani companies have been manufacturing and exporting short/medium range UAV's for years now, it would have to be something slightly better to warrant a viewing by the COAS I would presume.


----------



## mujahideen

Indigenously made UAV makes successful test flight

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Thursday successfully conducted a final test flight of its indigenously developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) "Uqaab".

The Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, senior armed forces officers and scientists witnessed the test.

The flight data indicates that all design parameters have been successfully validated. The performance of Uqaab can be compared to any of modern state of the art UAV in its category. 

Today's successful flight test was preceded by a series of trials in 2007.

The successful flight test is a reflection of Pakistan's technical prowess in the field of UAV technology and a tribute to the dedication and professionalism of the scientists and engineers.

It also reflects Pakistan's continued efforts for self reliance in the field of defence. 

The COAS congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success and said that they had shown their versatile capabilities by delivering on a new and complex technology of UAVs. This would go a long way in strengthening Pakistan's defence.

Indigenously made UAV makes successful test flight


----------



## mujahideen

Pakistan test-flies pilotless plane 

ISLAMABAD, March 20 (AFP) - Pakistan on Thursday conducted a successful test flight of a pilotless plane, the military announced. Flight data from the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) named Uqaab, showed the exercise had been successful, it said in a statement. The performance of UAV can be compared to any modern state-of-the-art UAV in its category, the statement said, adding that the flight test was preceded by a series of trial last year. The successful test reflects Pakistan's continued efforts for self-reliance in the field of defence, it said. Pakistan army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who witnessed the test, congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success. This would go a long way in strengthening Pakistan's defence, the statement quoted him as saying. 

- DAWN - Latest Stories; March 20, 2008


----------



## mujahideen

Indigenously Developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Successfully Tested

RAWALPINDI, MARCH 20: Pakistan successfully conducted a final test flight of its indigenously developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Uqaab. The Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, senior Armed Forces Officers and Scientists witnessed the test. The flight data collected indicates that all design parameters have been successfully validated. The performance of the UAV Uqaab can be compared to any of modern state of the art UAV in its category. Todays successful flight test was preceded by a series of trials in 2007.
The successful flight test is a reflection of Pakistans technical prowess in the field of UAV technology and a tribute to the dedication and professionalism of the scientists and engineers. It also reflects Pakistans continued efforts for self reliance in the field of defence. The COAS congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success and said that they had shown their versatile capabilities by delivering on a new and complex technology of UAVs. This would go a long way in strengthening Pakistans defence.

ISPR Press Release -6 Mar 2008

^^^^Click on the link above and pictures are aviable.


----------



## air marshal

*Indigenously made UAV makes Successful Test Flight*
March 20, 2008

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan successfully conducted a final test flight of its indigenously developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Uqaab.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Well,definitely bigger than the previous UAV's that have been developed. Still curious about approximate capabilities..


----------



## Neo




----------



## Neo

Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani being briefed about indigenously developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Uqaab on Thursday (20-3-2008) Photo ISPR.



Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani with the project team on the occasion of final test flight of Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Uqaab on Thursday (20-3-2008) Photo ISPR.



A view of final test flight of Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Uqaab on Thursday (20-3-2008) Photo ISPR.


----------



## fatman17

there are 2 versions endurance and range wise
150 km and 350 km


----------



## IceCold

Physically it looks quite similar as the US predator. Is it possible that it too can be fitted with two hard points under the wing making it capable to fire hellfire missles?


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Physically it looks quite similar as the US predator. Is it possible that it too can be fitted with two hard points under the wing making it capable to fire hellfire missles?



it is a light-weight UAV so hard points seem un-feasible at this point.


----------



## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> it is a light-weight UAV so hard points seem un-feasible at this point.



Thank you for your reply sir! perhaps at this point as you said it is not feasible however there might be chance in the future as the system gets matured.


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Thank you for your reply sir! perhaps at this point as you said it is not feasible however there might be chance in the future as the system gets matured.



icecold - correct. hope we can upgrade these machines soon.


----------



## EagleEyes

Pakistan has requested the MQ-1 Predator during the visit by the U.S. Army Cheif. Lets wait and see.


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Pakistan has requested the MQ-1 Predator during the visit by the U.S. Army Cheif. Lets wait and see.



rejected so far just like the AH-64, A-10, Perry Class etc.


----------



## ejaz007

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan on March 20 conducted a successful test flight of a pilotless plane, the military announced.

Flight data from the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) named "Uqaab," showed the exercise had been successful, it said in a statement. 

"The performance of UAV can be compared to any modern state-of-the-art UAV in its category," the statement said, adding that the flight test was preceded by a series of trial last year.

The successful test "reflects Pakistan's continued efforts for self-reliance in the field of defense," it said.

Pakistan army chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who witnessed the test, congratulated the scientists and engineers on their "outstanding success." 

"This would go a long way in strengthening Pakistan's defense," the statement quoted him as saying.

Pakistan Test-flies UAV: Military - Defense News

Any information about the type and capabilities of this UAV.
Regards,


----------



## F.O.X

It is a Medium Range(300-450km) UAV, Developed by ET. though quite as similar to JASSOS, it has batter detection Range & Improverd Micro wave transmitter & batter Trageting system for any Vehical & Weapons.
i am trying to get more info on it.


I am still waiting for Nishsn X( Janbazz), the only reason it have been delayed it is bcoz Satuma & ID have combined their work to make Nishan X more effective, Since Satuma's is experts in heavy Air Frames, Engine & batter microwave transmission so Nishan X is being modified to a great extinct may be possibly with a greater payload(Possibly any Light Missile), As far as i have heard Satuma is Providing Expertise in Airframe & Microwave Transmission & ID in Flight Control System , Video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming together they are making a masterpiece. Lets Hope it come out soon.


Regards
Champ


----------



## fatman17

Champ said:


> It is a Medium Range(300-450km) UAV, Developed by ET. though quite as similar to JASSOS, it has batter detection Range & Improverd Micro wave transmitter & batter Trageting system for any Vehical & Weapons.
> i am trying to get more info on it.
> 
> 
> I am still waiting for Nishsn X( Janbazz), the only reason it have been delayed it is bcoz Satuma & ID have combined their work to make Nishan X more effective, Since Satuma's is experts in heavy Air Frames, Engine & batter microwave transmission so Nishan X is being modified to a great extinct may be possibly with a greater payload(Possibly any Light Missile), As far as i have heard Satuma is Providing Expertise in Airframe & Microwave Transmission & ID in Flight Control System , Video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming together they are making a masterpiece. Lets Hope it come out soon.
> 
> 
> Regards
> Champ



good info champ but you r quoting the wrong range figures
150 km for one version and 350 km for the other.


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## F.O.X

> good info champ but you r quoting the wrong range figures
> 150 km for one version and 350 km for the other.


Tnx for clarification may b i mistook it somewhere. tnx



Regards
Champ


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## mujahideen

UAV challenges 

_Friday, March 28, 2008
Ali Abbas Rizvi_

The Pakistan Army recently tested an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) called Uqaab. The presence of Chief of the Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on the occasion shows how seriously the Pakistani military is taking the UAV concept in the modern day battlefield. While no specifications for the new UAV were issued, the high-profile presence of senior army officers on the occasion and the publicity that followed it made it clear that the new UAV was apparently a breakthrough over what the country had earlier produced in this field. "The flight data collected indicates that all design parameters have been successfully validated," a statement issued on the occasion said, adding: "The performance of the UAV Uqaab can be compared to any of modern state-of-the-art UAV in its category. The successful flight test is a reflection of Pakistan's technical prowess in the field of UAV technology."

There are several companies in Pakistan that are involved in UAV production.

One Pakistani firm, Integrated Dynamics of Pakistan, has made a unique hand-launched mini-rocket UAV, called Firefly. It is a high-speed, short-range observation system that can fly for eight seconds and costs around $3,000. Another UAV made by the same firm is called Desert Hawk, which has an endurance of two hours.

Recent reports have revealed that Pakistan is also acquiring two types of UAV from Europe. These are a German EMT LUNA short-range battlefield reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition UAV and Italian Galileo Avionica's Falco tactical unmanned aerial vehicle (TUAV). On the other hand, Turkey and Pakistan are also working on UAVs. In this regard, a letter of intent was signed between the TAI and the Air Weapons Complex (AWC) in 2007, under which the TAI would provide electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility tests of a flight control system and communication interface units for UAVs.

There is little doubt that UAVs are becoming increasingly important day by day. The US is the leader in UAV technology, followed by Israel and the European countries. However, the gap between the Americans and other nations in the technology is enormous and could not be met any time soon. While UAVs that can fly for up to 60 hours have been developed, the Americans are working on a UAV that would be maintenance-free and have an endurance of up to five years, giving them an unlimited advantage in terms of reconnaissance. At the moment, however, one of the most advanced UAVs is the 12,110kg Northrop Grumman's Global Hawk that has a range of more than 22,000 kilometres. The Predator is yet another UAV that is being extensively used for combat and reconnaissance missions on the Pak-Afghan border and in Iraq. One report recently revealed that the US has 163 UAV programmes in operation, compared to 50 by France, 31 by Israel and 25 by Pakistan.

Nevertheless, the journey to produce high-quality unmanned air vehicles is not going to be easy for Pakistan as it involves several daunting challenges.

First, it is essential that UAVs should have a very high operational reliability for the mission for which they are developed. One area in this respect is a good engine, which probably is the most difficult aspect in the designing of a UAV. Designers have to make sure that the engine can support the airframe, does not quit when it is most needed and does not give the UAV away. The engines should have low vibration and, therefore, a low signature.

It should be able to support long-endurance missions over the target.

Another area of operational reliability for a UAV comes from its airframe, which should be able to support the mission in all types of conditions, especially rough weather.

A different but a mammoth challenge comes in the shape of a UAV's capability for precision-flying in terms of altitude and flight path so as not to compromise the mission. This, however, is not an easy task. The designers would have to make sure that the UAV can fly over the target for long durations and in adverse weather during day and night. An additional area would be the mating of the equipment on board, especially high-resolution cameras, the sensors.

As it is, UAVs are being developed for both military and civilian use. For example, UAVs are being used in dangerous situations like flying over active volcanoes, near hurricanes and tornadoes, regions of high radioactivity, over the poles and deserts, for fire-fighting, observation of civil disturbances and natural disasters. The result is that the UAV market is expanding at a fast pace, especially in the military sector, and is expected to reach around $15 billion by 2010. The issue of UAVs, regrettably, has also been used by the Americans to justify their attack on Iraq, duping their lawmakers and the UN. In 2002, US Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed that the Iraqis had transported their advanced UAVs to ships in the Atlantic Ocean to launch biological- and chemical-weapon attacks on the US East Coast. Iraq, meanwhile, did not have any UAVs, only a few outdated training drones. However, in December 2002, in the first-ever, though asymmetrical, dogfight, an Iraqi MiG-25 using a missile downed a US Predator.

While the armed forces have been using UAVs on the border with India, the country also requires UAVs to monitor the movement of unwanted elements on its western borders, especially during the night. Also, UAVs would be greatly helpful in tracking the movement of smugglers and insurgents in Balochistan. On the other hand, the Indians, who have been concentrating on acquiring Israeli UAVs in the face of their not-so-successful indigenous programme, have been using them on the Pakistani borders. In June 2002, Pakistan shot down an Israeli-built Searcher Mark-II, which was on an Indian Air Force mission. It goes without saying that in the present geo-strategic situation, Pakistan needs to have its own fleet of modern unmanned aerial vehicles to which the future of the skies belongs.

_The writer is news editor, The News, Karachi. Email: abbasrizvi14@hotmail.com_


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## fatman17

good article Mr, mujahideen


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## Dark_Star

CHAMP any new news of NISHAAN X OR JANBAAZ


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## hassan1

how many UAV's use by PAF


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## ALi Rizwan

fatman17 said:


> good info champ but you r quoting the wrong range figures
> 150 km for one version and 350 km for the other.




Uqab (Tactical UAV System) 

(Air Launched Systems) 


Detail: 
Range 80 ~ 100 km 
Endurance > 3 hrs 
Height Ceiling 10,000 ft 
Speed 80 ~ 120 km/hr 
Real Time Reconnaissance 
Rapid Mobility 
Modular System Design 
Field Maintainable 
Low Radar Signature


gids.com.pk/gids2/


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## General Fujita

There are two versions of Uqaab. The tactical version and the strategic version. The tactical version of Uqaab will have a range of 150km and the strategic version will have a datalink range of 350km+ while for longer ranges, Uavs can use satellite links to extend its surveillance range.The strategic version of the UAV has the capability to adapt to the change of mission during the flight.


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## ALi Rizwan

General Fujita said:


> There are two versions of Uqaab. The tactical version and the strategic version. The tactical version of Uqaab will have a range of 150km and the strategic version will have a datalink range of 350km+ while for longer ranges, Uavs can use satellite links to extend its surveillance range.The strategic version of the UAV has the capability to adapt to the change of mission during the flight.



But official website says that range is from 80 ~ 100 km which is not even near to tactical version.
Your source?
Any info about Endurance & Altitude?


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## General Fujita

My source: Relatives in the army + pakdef
Altitude: 6,000m
Endurance: 5 -6 hours

now your source: http://www.gids.com.pk/gids2/detail.php?prodid=119


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## Nutuk

Some news about the TAI TIHA male project:




The TAI TIHA-A version will be a MALE type UAV (equivalent to the Heron UAV) capable of carrying camera's and SAR radar (under development of Aselsan)
The TIHA-B version will be a heavier version capable of carrying also laser guided missiles and bombs (like JDAM)

Currently the lightweight CIRIT (2,75" laserguided) missile has reached her final tests and helicopter launch tests have been carried out successfuly










I read a few times about cooperation with Pakistan on tactical and MALE UAV's and also joint development of smart (guided) cluster bomblets. Let's hope Turkey and Pakistan carry on the good cooperation in these fields.

Regards

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## Munir

retractable gear, bigger size, better sensors but without sat nav. Still very nice UAV!


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## HAIDER

any news about this...

This is picture of Pakistan high speed drone which is under wraps.


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## Munir

HAIDER said:


> any news about this...
> 
> This is picture of Pakistan high speed drone which is under wraps.



Don't get me wrong but if I look at the engines then they are common in RC buss. So the plane can be max 1,5 meters... Surely not big enough to be UAV and the payload cannot be that much with these engines...

It does look great for a rc plane though.


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## Nutuk

Munir said:


> retractable gear, bigger size, better sensors but without sat nav. Still very nice UAV!



Yes TIHA-A (1500kg) does not have sat nav. but TIHA-B (3500kg) will be of different caliber with sat nav. big payload etc.

Comparing to Heron UAV (1150kg) and Predator-B (4536kg)


TIHA-A:

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## ALi Rizwan

General Fujita said:


> My source: Relatives in the army + pakdef
> Altitude: 6,000m
> Endurance: 5 -6 hours
> 
> now your source: gids.com.pk/gids2/detail.php?prodid=119



Its really confusing. The source is official website. Furthermore UQAB was displayed in Malaysia from 21 to 24th April. The Tactical version was displayed (UQAB Eagle eye P1). So if your source is also right then it means that 3 type of UQAB version exist not 2 & only 1 version is disclosed.


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## dr.umer

*Pakistan Puts UAVs at Center of Technology Effort​*10 Nov 2008

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan's military industry has been steadily expanding the range and complexity of electronic products, components and subsystems it produces, especially related to the UAV sector.

The military privately admits India had a clear edge in UAV operations during the last major Indo-Pak stand-off in 2002. Indian forces had a larger number, and wider range, of UAVs available for battlefield surveillance and intelligence gathering.

Consequently, all three Pakistani military branches have sought to rectify this shortcoming. The Army has considerably increased its UAV inventory; the Air Force has formed two UAV squadrons (with the intention of fielding up to six); and the Navy tested the Schiebel Camcopter S-100 rotary UAV from a frigate in March. 

Although no selection has been made, a Navy spokesman said avenues for shipboard UAV operations were still being explored.

This does not appear to involve any domestic UAV producers, but much investment has been poured into domestic programs and the fruits of this are becoming evident both at home and abroad.

One of the companies at the forefront of this development is East West Infinity (EWI). EWI's latest products are the Heliquad micro tactical UAV and the Whisper Watch signals intelligence (SIGINT) package.

SIGINT has become more important with constant anti-terrorism operations on the frontier and in the tribal areas. 

*Finding Sophisticated Terrorists*

Al-Qaida and Taliban fighters use not just mobile and satellite phones for communication, but also sophisticated military radios. SIGINT is therefore essential to locate the high-ranking terrorists driving operations.

According to Haroon Javed Qureshi, EWI's managing director, though UAV-mountable, "Whisper Watch is most effective when aerostat-mounted, as the platform is stationary and airborne for longer."

Designed for militaries unable to afford high-end, dedicated SIGINT platforms, Whisper Watch can detect and monitor electronic emissions up to 250 kilometers away and then retransmit to a ground station located out of harm's way.

The Heliquad was first displayed in prototype form at the IDEAS2006 defense exhibition. Equipped with a tiny camera, it can relay pictures back to troops or special forces in an urban environment or in the field, giving them a tactical recon ability.

Being exceptionally small and powered by four electric motors, it is highly stealthy and represents the cutting edge of EWI's electronics miniaturization.

Both products will be displayed in their current configuration for the first time at IDEAS2008 later this month.

Karachi-based Integrated Dynamics (ID) has also made a name for itself, not only for exporting its Border Eagle Mk-II UAV to the United States for border patrol duties, but also by exporting UAVs and related subsystems to Australia, Italy, Spain and others, CEO Raja Khan said. 

A prolific designer and manufacturer of a wide range of UAV systems, ID has constantly pushed the boundaries of indigenous technology. This has resulted in very compact UAVs such as the 5-kilogram, hand-launched Rover and specialized decoys such as the Tornado.

The Rover is somewhat of a replacement for ID's Desert Hawk, which has been sold to a government agency. It is ID's smallest product, and has benefited extensively from ID's research into electronics miniaturization. 

Its optical payload is a more advanced derivative of ID's smallest and lightest - less than 1 kilogram - gyro-stabilized payload, the infrared/low-light GSP-100 camera. Powered by a noiseless electric motor, Rover operates up to 1,000 feet and relays signals from its Pan/Tilt/Zoom camera via a telemetry data link. It has an endurance of an hour. 

Though marketed for civilian use, such as news gathering and scientific research, its diminutive size and acoustic stealth mean it is just as useful for military operators.

The Tornado, however, is a turbojet-powered expendable decoy. Programmed to simulate an actual fighter aircraft, and with a range of 200 kilometers, it is loaded with flares and radar enhancement devices manufactured by ID. They emit false radar signals and electronic emissions to confuse enemy air defenses into thinking they are attacking aircraft. 

While they are understandably shrouded in secrecy, they reflect Pakistan's increasing concerns over countering enemy air defenses, especially because it has a limited number of combat aircraft in comparison to archrival India


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## Dark_Star

Munir ,,,, i think this red yellow UAV is being made at SATUMA ,,, there it is written that it is HSTD ,,, high speed target drone ,,, so no fancy sensors and payload will be on it ,,,, just lomberg lens ,,, and or miss distance indicators ... 

and yes ,,, if u see the specs ,,, it is small ,,, so it needs may be engines which are from hobby market ..... i dont know how they designed it ,,,, or may be from where copied it ....

cause it sure looks fine ....

and any news about 

and ""CHAMP any new news of NISHAAN X OR JANBAAZ""

for uqaab ,,, what i think is that u cant have a datalink of 350 km ,,, if ur flying at 10k ft ... so if uqaab want to go to 350 km datalink ranges ,,, than it has to go high ,,, for that u need a improved platform with a better engine ,,, so we are talking about a new aircraft here .... this is how things are ,,,, when u change one parameter u have to change a lot of more two get things done ..... or else they / manufacture damn good datalinks (that is least likely)
....

but i am still waiting for Nishaan X ,,, it is what i remember was from SATUMA and ID ,, something like that .....

Dark_Star


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan Air Force prepares to induct UAVs into service*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will formally induct unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) into service for the first time in 2009, the chief of the PAF has told Jane's . 

This comes five years after the PAF launched a programme to acquire UAVs for intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance operations.

In addition to the *Bravo+ UAV*, which, according to PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, has been built indigenously, the air force will also receive the *Falco UAV* produced by Selex Galileo of Italy. The two systems will be used mainly for aerial reconnaissance and information gathering, although the *PAF will later also induct UAVs equipped with weapon systems to carry out offensive operations*. 

*"This capability we are developing fairly rapidly; we are becoming mature. It is part of our operations now and I look forward to seeing this in real operations by [the] beginning [of] 2009," said ACM Ahmed.* 

He added that Pakistan had expanded its aircraft and related material production facility at the country's main aircraft manufacturing base, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, which is located in Kamra outside Islamabad, to build some components of the Falco. He did not say which components would be produced locally. 

*"[The UAVs] are already up in the air," ACM Ahmed said. "They are integrated into my current operational training system and we will now migrate from operational training to actual operations. In due course they will expand in numbers and capability.*" 

News of the PAF's UAV programme comes as Pakistan tries to convince the United States to stop using UAVs to attack targets inside Pakistan in the region bordering Afghanistan. 

Western defence experts based in Islamabad said that the Pakistani UAVs were likely to be deployed in the same region initially, although the programme is likely to be expanded to other regions in the future, such as part of the mountainous Kashmir region. 

*"This capability will ultimately be used by Pakistan for more extensive monitoring of its borders, especially areas that are at the centre of active threats," one Western defence official told Jane's *. 

&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group

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## ejaz007

*Pakistan Air Force prepares to induct UAVs into service *
By Farhan Bokhari 
25 November 2008


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will formally induct unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) into service for the first time in 2009, the chief of the PAF has told Jane's. 

This comes five years after the PAF launched a programme to acquire UAVs for intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance operations. 

In addition to the Bravo+ UAV, which, according to PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, has been built indigenously, the air force will also receive the Falco UAV produced by Selex Galileo of Italy. The two systems will be used mainly for aerial reconnaissance and information gathering, although the PAF will later also induct UAVs equipped with weapon systems to carry out offensive operations. 

"This capability we are developing fairly rapidly; we are becoming mature. It is part of our operations now and I look forward to seeing this in real operations by [the] beginning [of] 2009," said ACM Ahmed. 

Image: The Pakistan Air Force will induct UAVs into service in 2009. It will use the Falco (pictured) and the Bravo+. (Galileo Avionica) 


Pakistan Air Force prepares to induct UAVs into service - Jane's Air Forces News

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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force prepares to induct UAVs into service *
> By Farhan Bokhari
> 25 November 2008
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will formally induct unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) into service for the first time in 2009, the chief of the PAF has told Jane's.
> 
> This comes five years after the PAF launched a programme to acquire UAVs for intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance operations.
> 
> In addition to the Bravo+ UAV, which, according to PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, has been built indigenously, the air force will also receive the Falco UAV produced by Selex Galileo of Italy. The two systems will be used mainly for aerial reconnaissance and information gathering, although the PAF will later also induct UAVs equipped with weapon systems to carry out offensive operations.
> 
> "This capability we are developing fairly rapidly; we are becoming mature. It is part of our operations now and I look forward to seeing this in real operations by [the] beginning [of] 2009," said ACM Ahmed.
> 
> Image: The Pakistan Air Force will induct UAVs into service in 2009. It will use the Falco (pictured) and the Bravo+. (Galileo Avionica)
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force prepares to induct UAVs into service - Jane's Air Forces News



full article already posted in PA UAV section...also check out the Air-refuelling section for good news!


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## fatman17

*Pakistan develops impressive UAV capabilities news * 

02 December 2008 

Pakistan has developed an impressive capability to design and build drones or unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), some of which are being used to spy on al Qaeda and Taliban militants and listen in on their phone calls. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) currently fields two UAV squadrons and has plans to boost the number up to six.

In addition to the Bravo+ UAV, which, according to PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, has been built indigenously, the air force will also receive the Falco UAV produced by SelexGalileo of Italy. The two systems will be used mainly for aerial reconnaissance and information gathering, although the PAF will later also induct UAVs equipped with weapon systems to carry out offensive operations.

"This capability we are developing fairly rapidly; we are becoming mature. It is part of our operations now and I look forward to seeing this in real operations by [the] beginning [of] 2009," said ACM Tanvir Ahmed.

Meanwhile, Pakistani sources said that in the current war against terror al-Qaida and Taliban fighters not only use mobile and satellite phones for communication, but also sophisticated military radios. This has led to the development of SIGINT [signals intelligence] capabilities for small drones and robotic blimps by companies like EastWest Infiniti aimed at capturing such conversations.

These systems are designed for militaries unable to afford high-end, dedicated SIGINT platforms. EastWest's Whisper Watch system can detect and monitor electronic emissions up to 250 kilometers away which it then retransmits to a ground station.

Karachi-based Integrated Dynamics (ID) has received export orders for its Border Eagle surveillance drone from the United States Homeland Border Control for border patrol duties. Some 20 of these mini surveillance systems are to be delivered before the end of February.

On-board sensors are to be supplied in the US.

*Although Pakistan is ID's biggest customer for UAVs and support systems, its expertise in flight control, tele-command and control systems has won recognition in several other countries including France and the UK to which such electronic equipment has been supplied*.

While the company's smaller UAVs are powered by piston engines in the pusher configuration, the Tornado 2000 aerial target and decoy system, also on display, is powered by two 18-pound thrust mini turbojets, which endow a speed range of 70 to 300 knots. These Tornado's can emit false radar signals to confuse enemy air defenses into thinking they are attacking aircraft.

To help train UAV operators, ID has also developed pilot and mission simulators that offer low cost solutions to training requirements that would otherwise oblige use of real UAVs.

The pilot simulator provides a high level of realism and can support single or multiple instrument failures, while the mission simulator enables the user to analyze the mission before the actual flight, thus reducing risk and increasing system cost effectiveness.

Such indigenously built gear was on display at IDEAS 2008, Pakistan's military trade show held at Karachi.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Threads merged


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*"These systems are designed for militaries unable to afford high-end, dedicated SIGINT platforms. EastWest's Whisper Watch system can detect and monitor electronic emissions up to 250 kilometers away which it then retransmits to a ground station."*

250 km away eh ... impressive, and a private firm to boot!


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## HAIDER

From Jane's online site comes a report that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will formally induct unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) into service for the first time in 2009. This comes five years after the PAF launched a program to acquire UAVs for intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance operations.

In addition to the Bravo+ UAV, which, according to PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed has been built indigenously, the air force will also receive the Falco UAV produced by Selex Galileo of Italy. The two systems will be used mainly for aerial reconnaissance and information gathering, although the PAF will later also induct UAVs equipped with weapon systems to carry out offensive operations. (Photo is of the Falco UAV.)


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## TOPGUN

More good news !!


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## Moscow

Key features about the FALCO UAV
&#8226; Wide suite of payloads, including EO/IR, SAR, Maritime Surveillance Radar, ESM, self-protection equipment, hyperspectral, NBC sensors;
&#8226; The Falco System can be easily adapted to meet Customer&#8217;s requirements;
&#8226; Automatic conventional Short Take Off or Catapult launch;
&#8226; Automatic landing, Tactical Short Landing or parachute recovery;
&#8226; Mission pre-planning, retasking, mission simulation, rehearsal and play back;
&#8226; Autonomous navigation and control system with SELEX GALILEO own developed equipment (NSU, ECI).

Its capability of 7/24, all-weather, persistent surveillance allows it to perform missions ranging from border patrol, coastal watch, immigration prevention, law enforcement to power and pipelines surveillance, illegal fishery prevention, and environmental monitoring.

The Falco UAV System configuration is made of a Ground Control Station (GCS), Ground Data Terminal (GDT), Ground Support Equipment (GSE) and four Falco air vehicles housing payloads tailored to customer&#8217;s requirements: e.g. EO/IR, SAR, Maritime Surveillance Radar, ESM, self-protection equipment, hyperspectral, NBC sensors.


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## Captain03

very good news =]


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## metalfalcon

Every single Bird and Every Single Missile will count For PAF at this Critical times.

Mashallah very good News.


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## Ahassan

GOOD NEWS FOR PAKISTAN AIR FORCE!!!
PAKISTAN ARMY SHOULD OPT FOR *Denel Aerospace Systems Bateleur*!!!


Roles and Missions:

Real-time day and night (E/O and IR) surveillance 
Electronic and Communications Intelligence gathering (ELINT and COMINT) 
Airborne communications relay 
Military and paramilitary photo reconnaissance 
Target location and laser designation 
Maritime and coastal patrol 
Border patrol 
Search and rescue 
Battlefield surveillance 
Artillery fire support 
Damage assessment


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## zavis2003

Great news and pakistan think that can produce indegniosly as army is already using UAVS as i knew about them when i was student in ARmy school in JLA wher at that time they demonstrated there flights for us as a joyfull event


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## SherdiL!

goods new thx <3 no homo


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## skybolt




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## HAIDER

ISLAMABAD, Jan 1 (APP): Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is playing an important role in technologically equipping the Pakistan Air Force to meet any challenges. In line to give an extra punch to Air Force, PAC has handed over around a dozen predator type Un&#8209;manned Ariel Vehicles (UAVs) to PAF, said Chairman PAC Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhary.
In an exclusive talk with APP on Thursday, he said that Pakistan has acquired the UAV manufacturing technology and its indigenous manufacturing has been initiated successfully.

He said though these UAVs are lighter than the Predators but meet the defence requirements of the PAF. We will manufacture more UAVs indiginously keeping in view the requirements of PAF, said Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry. 
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - A dozen UAVs handed over to PAF


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## metalfalcon

HAIDER said:


> ISLAMABAD, Jan 1 (APP): Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is playing an important role in technologically equipping the Pakistan Air Force to meet any challenges. In line to give an extra punch to Air Force, PAC has handed over around a *dozen predator type Un&#8209;manned Ariel Vehicles (UAVs) to PAF*, said Chairman PAC Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhary.
> In an exclusive talk with APP on Thursday, he said that Pakistan has acquired the UAV manufacturing technology and its indigenous manufacturing has been initiated successfully.
> 
> He said though these UAVs are lighter than the Predators but meet the defence requirements of the PAF. We will manufacture more UAVs indiginously keeping in view the requirements of PAF, said Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry.
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - A dozen UAVs handed over to PAF



What is the name of this UAV, Because Uqaab is not like Predator. Good news For PAF and Pakistan, *Can Pakistani UAV patrol the tribal areas now and there is no need of American UAV in our Skies, I heard that these attacks by American UAVs will stop after Dec 31st but just today they attacked again.
*


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## Sid

> ISLAMABAD, Jan 1 (APP): Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is playing an important role in technologically equipping the Pakistan Air Force to meet any challenges. In line to give an extra punch to Air Force, PAC has handed over around a dozen predator type Un&#8209;manned Ariel Vehicles (UAVs) to PAF, said Chairman PAC Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhary.
> 
> In an exclusive talk with APP on Thursday, he said that Pakistan has acquired the UAV manufacturing technology and its indigenous manufacturing has been initiated successfully.
> 
> He said though these UAVs are lighter than the Predators but meet the defence requirements of the PAF. We will manufacture more UAVs indiginously keeping in view the requirements of PAF, said Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry.
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - A dozen UAVs handed over to PAF



This is nothing new, Pakistan has had UAV manufacturing capability for quite some time now with many different models produced.

This newspiece is yet another example of an excited & ignorant journalist who didn't bother doing enough research. If he writes 'predator-type UAV'; he has to go in some depth on the issue; else its jst 'ball-parking'.


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## F.O.X

> PAC has handed over around a dozen predator type Un&#8209;manned Ariel Vehicles (UAVs) to PAF


i am afraid there in no predator type UAV's in Pakistan's inventory.



Regards
Champ


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## nitetrogen70

does that mean we have the ability to knock out the predator


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## raheelocelot

School of Army Air Defense has been producing target drones since 1975 in collaboration with few semi-literate, semi-skilled aero modeling enthusiast, their achievements are quite impressive.

Their first RPV, named, HUD HUD, was flown in July 1998. Since then two improved versions have been demonstrated, the last being HUD HUD III, which flew on 5 February 2001. The School developed target Drones &#8220;Shahbaz&#8221; and &#8220;Ababeel&#8221; for army and target drone &#8220;Banshee&#8221; for Navy for practicing firing of surface to air artillery and machine guns target. It also provided technical assistance to PAF in re-building obsolete drone for air-to-air firing in March 1998.

Realizing that UAV development was not School of army air defense primary role and appreciating the institutional discrepancies in production, the GHQ has relieved Air Defense School from further development and production of tactical UAVs for the Army.

Check this article as well. Its very elaborate.

UAVs and their Furture Prospects

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## chindit

Sorry, I hope the picture works this time.

What type of UAV is this - Indian Army shot it down in 2003



> Lt Col Rathore of the Indian Army displayes wreckage of a Pakistan UAV shot down over Mendhar, Poonch in J&K on 05th Feb 2003. The UAV is of Italian make and was flying 400m on Indian side of the LoC. The aircraft was down by ground fire. Debris recovered included one wing, engine Assembly, a frame and transmitters.



It does not look liike a large UAV


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

^^ Yes, looks pretty small. Not sure whether its identifiable through the pieces presented.


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## raheelocelot

Well, i have seen almost all drones and UAVs of Pakistan (Pak Army n PAF) and this is none of our UAVs. The reason is that non of em has such landing gear assemblies ( red circled ). So, it may be some UAV but it not ours.

So, the question arisies that why indians gave this news. Actually, we shot down indian UAV by F-16. After that, they made it a matter of their pride to shoot one of ours. As they were unable to do so (we bacame careful), they came up with this story. Another argument to support this is that 400m is a very samll distance. If there army was there, so was ours. And as this small mutual distance, a fire should have resulted in a responce from our side (considering tensions at that time).

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## chindit

raheelocelot said:


> Well, i have seen almost all drones and UAVs of Pakistan (Pak Army n PAF) and this is none of our UAVs. The reason is that non of em has such landing gear assemblies ( red circled ). So, it may be some UAV but it not ours.
> 
> So, the question arisies that why indians gave this news. Actually, we shot down indian UAV by F-16. After that, they made it a matter of their pride to shoot one of ours. As they were unable to do so (we bacame careful), they came up with this story. Another argument to support this is that 400m is a very samll distance. If there army was there, so was ours. And as this small mutual distance, a fire should have resulted in a responce from our side (considering tensions at that time).



I would agree it was a tit-for-tat response if it had made it in the news in a big way - and usually these things emanate from delhi. 

the report and photo was published localy and did not get much prominance at all. even i noticed it recently only. I wish there were more photos of it.


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## raheelocelot

A MQ-9 Reaper , a hunter-killer surveillance UAV used by the United States Armed Forces and British Armed Forces especially in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have uploaded some new photos at UAVs and their Future Prospects

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## Neo

*Pakistan Emerges with Indigenous UAV Technology ​*4 March, 2009

Back in 1970, the American Army Gen. William Westmoreland is reported to have said: On the battlefield of the future, enemy forces will be located, tracked and targeted almost instantaneously through the use of data links, computer-assisted intelligence and automated fire control.  I am confident the American people expect this country to take full advantage of its technology-to welcome and applaud the developments that will replace wherever possible the man with the machine. It seems that this vision from the 1970s is being realized today. One manifestation of it is the development and deployment of unmanned aerial vehicles by many nations, including Pakistan.

*Pakistan UAV*

The growing reliance on armed drones (aka Predators) by Americans in Afghanistan and Pakistans FATA region to target militants has been making headlines with increasing casualties.

This technology of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) or drones designed and manufactured in Pakistan has also been making news since the IDEAS (International Defense Exhibition and Seminar) 2008 event, a 5-day biennial arms show held November last year in Karachi, Pakistan.

Among the largest foreign pavilions at the exhibition, Turkey had 28 companies and United States had 22. Other major exhibitors came from China, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, South Korea, South Africa, the Ukraine and the United Kingdom. Among other products, Pakistani companies showed off JF-17 fighter plane built by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in partnership with Chinas Chengdu Aircraft, Al-Khalid main battle tank, and a variety of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) designed, developed and built in Pakistan.

While offering employment to thousands, and strengthening Pakistans defense, the growing indigenous sophistication of many of the private sector companies is also becoming an attractive investment opportunity.

*Integrated Dynamics*

One such Company is Integrated Dynamics, a privately held Pakistani company that drew attention at the IDEAS 2008 expo. It is a developer and manufacturer of unmanned aerial vehicles which is exported to Australia, Spain, South Korea and Libya and the United States. The UAV Company is an example of a new generation of private defense companies in Pakistan that have grown with the emerging needs of Pakistani military and export opportunities to both military and civilian sectors abroad.

Integrated Dynamics is a full-service UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) systems provider based in Karachi, Pakistan. The company has been in business since 1997 and designs and integrates UAV systems primarily for the Government of Pakistan, the Pakistan armed forces and export.

*Integrated Dynamics*

The company says they are committed to the use of the UAV system as a scientific and defensive tool that can be used to save lives and monitor potentially hostile environments for human personnel. The company also makes drones such as the turbojet-powered Tornado decoy, which can fly up to 200 kilometers, and emit false radar signals to confuse enemy air defenses into thinking they are attacking aircraft, according to Defense News of Pakistan.

In addition to supplying drones to the Pakistani military, the company exports its products to Australia, Spain, South Korea and Libya and the United States. The US Homeland Security Department uses IDs Border Eagle surveillance drone for border patrol duties. Integrated Dynamics products cost only a fraction of the cost of comparable products made in the United States and Europe. According to the Karachi-based company, ID UAV prices start from about USD 20,000 while in comparison UAV products made in the West start from about USD 200,000. The ID models have operational ranges of 20 to 1,600 kilometers.

Integrated Dynamics had begun to develop the Firefly mini-rocket UAV in late 2004 in response to the Pakistani armys operational requirements for a high-speed, short-range observation system that could be used in the high-altitude environments of northern Pakistan. A basic system of such sort costs around USD 3,000 and comprises four rockets, a launcher, a carry case, datalink and a PDA-based ground control station.

*Emerging Sophistication from a Cottage Industry*

Pakistans arms manufacturing sector has long been considered to be a cottage industry. The dusty little town of Darra Adam Khel,only a half-hour drive from Peshawar, reminds visitors of Americas Wild West. The craftsmen of this town are manufacturers and suppliers of small arms to the tribal residents of the nations Federally Administered Tribal Areas who carry weapons as part of their ancient culture. The skilled craftsmen of FATA make revolvers, automatic pistols, shotguns and AK-47 rifles. Until five years ago, the list also had items such as anti-personnel mines, sub-machine guns, small cannons and even rocket launchers. The Pakistani government has forced the tribesmen to stop making heavy assault weapons to try and prevent the Taliban and Al Qaeda from having access to such weapons.

Pakistans arms industry has come a long way from making small arms as a cottage industry in the last few decades. The US and Western arms embargoes imposed on Pakistan at critical moments in history have proved to be a blessing in disguise. In particular, the problems Pakistan faced in the aftermath of the Pressler Amendment in 1992 became an opportunity for the country to rely on indigenous development and production of defense equipment.

*Pakistans Military Industrial Complex*

The country now boasts a powerful industrial, technological and research-based developing and manufacturing sector for its armed forces and exports a wide variety of small and large weapons ranging from modern fighter jets, battle tanks, armored vehicles, frigates and submarines to unmanned aerial vehicles and high tech firearms and personal grenade launchers for urban combat. Some of these items were on display at IDEAS 2008.

Pakistan has become an increasingly important player in the world arms industry, a global industry and business which manufactures and sells weapons and military technology and equipment. Arms production companies, also referred to as Defense Contractors, produce arms mainly for the armed forces of nation states. Products include guns, ammunition, missiles, military aircraft, military vehicles, ships, electronic Systems, and more. The arms industry also conducts significant research and development. Pakistans major defense manufacturing companies are owned and operated by Pakistans military.

According to Business Monitor, Pakistans defense industry contains over 20 major public sector units (PSUs) and over 100 private-sector firms. The majority of major weapons systems production and assembly is undertaken by the state-owned PSUs, while the private-sector supplies parts, components, bladed weapons and field equipment.

Major PSUs include the Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) and the Pakistan Machine Tool Factory. Multinational presence in Pakistan is limited, although joint production or engineering support in the development of certain armaments has recently occurred with companies such as DCN International and the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.

*JF-17 Jointly developed by Pakistan and China*

IDEAS 2000, Pakistans first major arms show, was organized after former President Musharraf assumed leadership of the country in the wake of the 1999 bloodless coup that toppled the Nawaz Sharif government. At the show, the former president emphasized the need for the growth of Pakistans defense industry and private sector involvement in R&D, manufacturing and marketing of arms. Held every two years since the year 2000, the show has become a runaway success. It has helped Pakistan and other friendly nations to show off their wares, find customers, share knowledge, build bilateral partnerships, encourage scientific innovation and learning among young people and made visitors and Pakistani citizens more aware of the role the defense industry plays in national defense and economy.

*World Arms Market*

It is estimated that yearly, over USD 1 trillion are spent on military expenditures worldwide (2% of World GDP). Part of this goes to the procurement of military hardware and services from the military industry. The combined arms sales of the top 100 largest arms producing companies amounted to an estimated USD 315 billion in 2006. In 2004 over USD 30 billion were spent in the international arms trade (excluding domestic arms sales). Many industrialized countries have a domestic arms industry to supply their own military forces. Some countries also have a substantial legal or illegal domestic trade in weapons for use by its citizens. The illegal trade in small arms is prevalent in many countries and regions affected by political instability.

*Pakistans Arms Business*

In a July 2008 interview with Pakistans Dawn newspaper, Major General Mohammad Farooq, Director General of the Defense Export Promotion Organization, claimed that Pakistans defense exports have tripled to around USD 300 million because of the quality of its ammunition, anti-tank guided missiles, rocket launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles. He said exports to South Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries had increased significantly. It has been reported that Sri Lanka has purchased cluster bombs, deep penetration bombs and rockets and UAVs from Pakistan.

General Farooq said optical instruments like night vision devices, laser range-finders and designators, laser threat sensors, artillery armor mortars and munitions, mine detectors, anti-tank rifles, missile boats, different types of tear gases, fuses of unarmed vehicles, security equipment and sporting and hunting guns were also being manufactured in Pakistan. The fuses are being purchased by countries like Italy, France and Spain, he said.

In recent times however, Pakistan has come under criticism by human rights groups for being a leading manufacturer and exporter of land-mines, cluster bombs and depleted uranium munitions.

*Pakistans UAV Industry*

The three main branches of the Pakistani military are evaluating UAVs made in Pakistan and the rest of the world for purchase and deployment.

Pakistan has been eager to boost its capabilities for high-tech aerial warfare and restructure and reorient its military to respond to the new and emerging challenges of combating insurgents. A number of public and private sector companies have been engaged in research, development and manufacturing of unmanned aerial vehicles as a part of this initiative. The public sector companies include Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Air Weapons Complex and National Development Complex.

This growing interest by Pakistani military and also foreign companies and governments has helped spawn several private Pakistani UAV companies specializing in air-frames, launch and propulsion, flight control, tele-command and control systems, signal intelligence, training simulators, etc. In addition to Integrated Dynamics mentioned earlier, other private companies involved in UAV development and manufacturing include, East-West Infinity, Satuma and Global Industrial Defense Solutions.

Between the public and private sector UAVs developed in Pakistan, there is a long list of products. In addition to Integrated Dynamics described above, here are three more UAV companies in Pakistan:

*East-West Infinity*

One of the companies at the forefront of UAV development is East West Infinity (EWI). EWIs latest products are the Heliquad micro tactical UAV and the Whisper Watch signals intelligence (SIGINT) package. The Heliquad was first displayed in prototype form at the IDEAS 2006 defense exhibition. Equipped with a tiny camera, it can relay pictures back to troops or Special Forces in an urban environment or in the field, giving them a tactical reconnaissance capability. Being exceptionally small and powered by four electric motors, Heliquad is highly stealthy and represents the cutting edge of EWIs electronics miniaturization. SIGINT has become more important with ongoing anti-terrorism operations on the western front and in the tribal areas. Designed for militaries unable to afford high-end, dedicated SIGINT platforms, the company says its Whisper Watch platform is most effective when aerostat-mounted, as the platform is stationary and airborne for longer.

*Satuma*

Satuma (Surveillance and Target Unmanned Aircraft), founded in 1989, is a small UAV specialist company based near Islamabad, Pakistan. Satuma products include Flamingo, Jasoos and Mukhbar UAVs. Its biggest customer is the Pakistani military.

*Global Industrial Defense Solutions*

GIDS, the largest of the private defense sector companies, has a UAV division, which produces a whole range of operational and training UAVs, the main customer of which is the Pakistani military. The UAVs developed by GIDS have been extensively flight tested by the military. GIDS ground control stations have an interactive and user friendly interface, where flight parameters and auto-pilot mission planning, and execution is done in addition to reception of high-end crisp quality video transmitted over an encrypted digital link.

Headed by a retired PAF Air Vice Marshall, GIDS has emerged from a combination of 7 Pakistani private defense companies that include AERO (Advanced Engineering Research Organization), IDS (Integrated Defense Systems), MSL (Maritime Systems Pvt Limited), ACES (Advanced Computing and Engineering Solutions), IICS (Institute of Industrial Control Systems), ATCOP (AI-Technique Corporation) and SETS (Scientific Engineering and Technology Solutions). Other than UAVs, its major products include anti-personnel, anti-armor, incendiary, anti-runway, electronic impact and time-based fuses, electronic warfare equipment, navigation systems, optical fiber and optical fiber cables. Anti-tank Wire Guided Missile System known as Baktar Shiken made by IICS, is a component of GIDS.

*Conclusion*

Pakistans growing defense industry is becoming high tech to keep up with the challenges of a changing world that requires advanced weapons and new strategies to maintain peace and stability in a hostile neighborhood. Simultaneously, Pakistans defense industry is contributing to a scientific, technological, industrial and economic development of the nation by training and employing thousands of citizens. The investments made in defense production are a good bargain for the companies, their investors and the taxpayers of Pakistan to help ensure the nations economic, political and national security against both internal and external threats.

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## metalfalcon

*I hope Pakistan Will Make a UCAV soon Just as we have made UAVs*. World is changing and we have to keep pace with them in every Field of Life.


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## Hyde

excellent news

Insha'Allah agle 5 saalon main hamari army, air force aur navy ke inventories ke figures proud karne wale hon ge

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## sohailbutt

Looking at the facility from outside, no one would guess what goes on within the 90,000-square-foot research facility of Integrated Dynamics (ID), a privately owned company in Karachi&#8217;s Korangi area. There are no signboards indicating that ID is in the business of developing drone technology for military and civilian use. Surprisingly, there isn&#8217;t even an army of security guards manning the complex as one would expect upon entering the gate. A lonesome gate keeper lets us in without a fuss. 

Even more startling is the ease with which Raja Sabri Khan, ID's chief executive, states that &#8216;drone technology has existed in Pakistan for the last 20 years.&#8217; 

Khan, who graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a master's degree in aeronautics and astronautics, is quick to clarify that his company has &#8216;never been asked to develop a drone which has an armed implication.&#8217; Instead, ID develops advanced Unmanned Autonomous Vehicle (UAV) systems capable of reconnaissance missions as well as target decoys for anti-aircraft missiles. His customers, he says, include the armed forces of the country as well as foreign buyers from the US, Australia, Spain, Italy and France. 

Although he may not have been asked to develop an armed drone, Khan, who previously worked as a consultant for Pakistan&#8217;s aerospace agency Suparco, points out: &#8216;If we consider the fact that drone development has been taking place in Pakistan for the last 20 years, I think the technology for flying long-range autonomous missions has existed for at least 10-12 years.&#8217;

Given Khan's estimations about local drone development, it is unclear why Pakistan is asking the US to handover its armed drone technology, especially that of the infamous Predator. President Asif Ali Zardari recently told the British daily Independent that the US should give Pakistan the &#8216;weapons, drones and missiles that will allow us to take care of&#8217; the militant threat in the tribal areas.' 

&#8216;If you ask anyone in Pakistan involved in the business of making unmanned UAVs whether something similar to the Predator drone aircraft can be made, the answer would be yes,' explains Khan. 'I won&#8217;t say we can make it overnight or by tomorrow. But I won&#8217;t say either that it is a matter of decades. I would say that, if given the task, we can make such aircrafts in a few years.' As a technologist, Khan is hesitant to speculate as to why the Pakistan government or armed forces are not investing in home-made technology. 'I think you need to ask the policy makers that.' 

*UAVs in Pakistan*

Interestingly, there are several public sector companies involved in developing UAVs in Pakistan, including the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Air Weapons Complex (AWC) and National Development Complex (NDC). 

The PAC's Uqaab drone is in use by the Pakistan Army, and, according to unconfirmed reports, is being upgraded with Chinese help to carry a weapons payload. Other PAC UAVs include the Bazz and Ababeel. AWC's Bravo+ UAV is in use of the Pakistan Airforce (PAF). The PAF recently acquired an unarmed Italian drone called the Falco UAV, which is reportedly being used for surveillance and battleground assessments in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. In 2008, the Pakistan Navy also reportedly completed trials of UAVs - the Austrian Schiebel Camcopter S-100 and Swedish Cybaero - from a Pakistani frigate in the Arabian Sea.

Private sector companies are also involved in the design and development of UAVs. Apart from ID in Karachi, East-West Infinity (EWI), Satuma and Global Industrial Defense Solutions (GIDS) are in the drone-making business. 

The EWI's Heliquad UAV is considered a stealth design because of its small size and Whisper Watch signals intelligence package, which is capable of picking up radio and other communication signals. ID's Nishan Mk1 and TJ1000, Vision MK1 & MK2, Tornado, Border Eagle, Hornet, Hawk and Vector are also popular models employed by the armed forces for reconnaissance missions and target practice (each model varies in range and endurance). Satuma's UAVs, with similar functionalities, are called Flamingo, Jasoos and Mukhbar. For its part, the GIDS develops the Huma-1 UAV and its own version of the Uqaab. 

Even though almost all UAVs in the country have been built for military applications - reconnaissance, simulations, decoy systems, remote sensing - none of them are reported to be capable of firing arms. Moreover, none of the above-mentioned facilities are involved in large-scale, mass production of UAVs. 
*Policy on drones *

It is still not clear what Pakistan&#8217;s policy regarding unmanned drones is. On the one hand, Pakistan has &#8216;condemn[ed] in the strongest terms&#8217; any US drone attack. On the other hand, reports have emerged that the US has the tacit approval of the current government. 

Previously, former president Pervez Musharraf had reportedly authorized Washingtonto launch Predator drones from secret bases near Islamabad and Jacobabad. Google Earth imagesof an airbase in Balochistan hosting Predators had also emerged at a time when Pakistan was adamantly claiming that all drones were flying in from Afghanistan. More recently, the Pakistan Army &#8216;practiced&#8217; shooting down drones, but even then, foreign aircrafts continued to rain in their missiles. 

ID's Khan explains that shooting down drones to prevent attacks is a viable option. &#8216;From a technical standpoint, all it takes is a simple air-to-air or surface-to-air missile to bring the drone down. Almost all of these aircrafts have a very low radar signature. But they&#8217;re not undetectable. They can be detected,' he says. 'The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.'

*Drones vs. casualties*

According to news reports, US drone attacks have killed around 701 people in Pakistan since 2006, including 14 alleged Al Qaeda leaders. Although armed UAVs or drones provide safety to their operators since they cannot be harmed if the aircrafts are shot down during combat operations, they come at the cost of scores of civilian casualties, who bear the brunt of aerial raids. Therefore, it is debatable whether the armed drones, even if built and controlled by Pakistan, would actually make a difference in terms of changing the sentiment of the people against their devastating impact. 

*Quote* 

&#8216;The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.&#8217;

*The way forward*

Apart from their use in a military context, there is a need to deploy UAVs for the benefit of Pakistani communities. UAVs abroad are being used for a variety of civilian services, including search and rescue operations, environmental analysis, assisting local law enforcers, scientific research and even transport. Situational awareness about a potentially hazardous or calamity-hit areas, for example, in the aftermath of an earthquake, could also be gained through the use of such systems. 

The responsibility of implementing this vision rests not only with the companies that develop UAVs, but also with government bodies that should utilise drones to improve their image and efficiency. After all, drones are not exclusively killing machines.

*Drone terminology* 

*Model aircraft*: Typically a remote-controlled unmanned plane that flies within the visual range of an operator.

*Unmanned Aerial Vehicle*: A remote-controlled unmanned plane that can fly beyond the visual range of an operator. It is usually fitted with remote sensors and/or cameras.

*Unmanned Autonomous Vehicle*: An advanced form of unmanned aerial vehicles, it may have a range of hundreds of kilometres and an endurance of months. Moreover, the mission can be pre-programmed in such systems and can be completed with or without the assistance of an operator. Some advanced versions also use artificial intelligence.

*Drone*: In Pakistan, drones are usually associated with advanced unmanned autonomous vehicles that are fitted with lethal firepower (for example, the American Predator and Reaper drones). Target drones do not have combat capability and are used as decoys to simulate fighter aircrafts and test anti-aircraft batteries. 

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Drones: Made in Pakistan

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## sohailbutt

Flying high in Korangi 1/12 Dawn.com visits the facilities of Integrated Dynamics, located in Karachis Korangi district. The private company develops aerospace and robotic systems, including unmanned autonomous vehicles (UAVs), which are currently in use by the Pakistan army for reconnaissance, simulations and target practice.





Raja Sabri Khan, chief executive of Integrated Dynamics, is seen here at his UAV research and development centre in Korangi, Karachi.




The Tornado is a target and decoy UAV with a range of over 200 kilometres. It can reach speeds of up to 300 knots and can emit false radar signals to confuse enemy air defences.




According to Khan, the core team at his company comprises only 14 people.




An UAV in the earliest stages of development.




The space in which UAV prototypes are designed and developed.

DAWN.COM | Media Gallery | Flying high in Korangi

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## sohailbutt

The Nishan MK-II is seen here against the backdrop of Shadow and Explorer UAVs. The Nishan has a wingspan of over 9 feet and is considered a high-speed aerial target or decoy. Its range is limited to 35 kilometres.




The Border Eagle is a surveillance UAV that comes equipped with both a still and video camera along with a chemical monitoring module. The US Homeland Security department is reportedly using this drone to patrol its borders.




The explorer is one of the two advanced civilian UAV systems offered by Integrated Dynamics. It has a 20-kilometre range and is equipped with sensors suited for scientific research programmes.




The Shadow is also a surveillance UAV that has a speed of over 200 kilometres per hour and can operate within a 200-kilometre range.




The Rover is a civilian UAV typically used for electronic news gathering and rapid information relay.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...korangi-sal?pageDesign=new_mg_wht_detail12-10

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## sohailbutt

Integrated Dynamics also features ground station units that are used in combination with the UAV systems.




A large variety of UAVs are manufactured by Integrated Dynamics at the facility in Karachi.

DAWN.COM | Media Gallery | Flying high in Korangi

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## BaburCM

I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Khan. The PA is facing immense difficulty in the troubled and difficult regions. This can easily be reduced if the PA had access to such drones. There is a lack of political will in the political spectrum. The PA desperately requires reliable UCAVs for intel gathering and strike missions. We have a matured UAV industry which is able to deliver if political backing and appropriate funds are provided. We already know that the Americans won't provide the requested drones. Pakistani companies could team up with Chinese companies and accelerate the project as well as provide the goodies to the PA. The Uqaab purportedly being upgraded with weapons payload is excellent news. The use of UCAVs by the PA in the border regions should be top priority! It will provide relief to the ground troops and also minimize collateral damage.


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## syed safdar hussain

Hi 

Can any one tell me the web site of Integrated Dynamics 

i try to open the following link but i dont know wh it is not opneing .

Index of /


Regards 
Syed Safdar Hussain


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## ajpirzada

BaburCM said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Khan. The PA is facing immense difficulty in the troubled and difficult regions. This can easily be reduced if the PA had access to such drones. There is a lack of political will in the political spectrum. The PA desperately requires reliable UCAVs for intel gathering and strike missions. We have a matured UAV industry which is able to deliver if political backing and appropriate funds are provided. We already know that the Americans won't provide the requested drones. Pakistani companies could team up with Chinese companies and accelerate the project as well as provide the goodies to the PA. The Uqaab purportedly being upgraded with weapons payload is excellent news. The use of UCAVs by the PA in the border regions should be top priority! It will provide relief to the ground troops and also minimize collateral damage.



its a guess but wat if PAC is already workin on it and we dont know about it??


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## nwmalik

any info regards use of UAV s in swat?


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## cabatli_53

_*In the scope of Indigenous UAV (MALE) Development Project,
The Signing Ceremony concerning cooperation agreement between Turkey (TAI) and Pakistan (AWC), *_

UAV Projects Signature Ceremonies (May 23rd, 2007)

Brothers, If Above source of official Turkish SSM do not mention any other Male development project different from TIHA, You are already a partner of TIHA-A MALE UAV...



TIHA-A

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## fatman17

so far 2 army UAVs have been lost in the ops due to technical malfunction!- reported in the various news clips.


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## mean_bird

*Made in Pakistan​*

Although drone technology exists in Pakistan, there are no efforts underway to produce weaponised drones that could rival the US Predator.


By Shahzeb Shaikha


It would come as a surprise to most Pakistanis that the country has an indigenous Unmanned Aerial Vehicle [UAV] industry. In fact, there are three private entities  East West Infiniti [EWI], Integrated Dynamics [ID] and Surveillance and Target Unmanned Aircraft [Satuma]  involved in the manufacturing of UAVs in Pakistan. In addition, three government enterprises, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex [PAC], the Air Weapons Complex [AWC], and the National Development Complex [NDC] also produce UAVs.

The Pakistan government has repeatedly requested the US to send them drone technology, a request which, according to defense analyst Ayesha Siddiqa, has been persistently denied because we always leak technology. But what if Pakistan develops its own drones with a missile delivery system matching the American Predator?

*At this point, the question of what if doesnt exist because Pakistan already possesses the capability to develop its own unmanned vehicles. *But there is a big difference between producing unarmed UAVs, which Pakistan currently does, and the armed Predator drones which the US has been using in FATA.

Can Pakistan come up with a UAV carrying weapons?

Dr Hammad Bin Khaleeq, Satumas director in charge of mechanical design and manufacturing, Dr Haroon Javed Qureshi of EWI, and Raja Sabri Khan, CEO of Integrated Dynamics, all concur.

*It is possible, Khaleeq tells Newsline. It is not something beyond our capability. We only need to have support  financial support as well as time. These things dont develop overnight. *He maintains that there have been huge amounts of investment from the government for the purpose of developing drones but state entities have failed to deliver the desired product. Acquiring and integrating a weapon in drones is advanced and difficult. But its not out of our reach. If the government wants, the efforts can be put in.

*Qureshi confidently explains that if the drone project is headed solely by private enterprises, I can assure you that my company, or, for that matter, Raja Sabri Khans Integrated Dynamics, or Satuma, can perhaps do it in three years.* One has to keep in mind that all three companies have been in this particular business for 15 years and are well aware of the ground realities.

However, Khan is sceptical about the three-year estimate. I worked for Suparco from 1987 to 1997, before I started my own company. Right now, the only constraint in Pakistan developing a predator type drone is money, Khan says. He also maintains that state enterprises lack will and passion, and agrees with Qureshis stance on the government backing commercial firms to develop such technology. Khan reveals that a minimum investment of $50 million would be required to initiate a drone project along the lines of the Predator, but it could take as long as eight years.

According to the three private enterprises the drone technology in Pakistan is nowhere near the American Predator. *The Predator carries a Hellfire missile that Pakistan does not have. Instead, Pakistan has the Baktarshikan and the Tow anti-tank missile, which can strike as far as 3,000 yards.* The maximum payload weight of the Tow missile is 100lb. *The main difference between the Predator and Pakistani-manufactured drones is the wing load capability and the engine size. The Predator can carry far more payload weight [450lb] and can fly more than 20 hours, covering a distance of 3,700km. *The missile capability depends on how much load the wing can carry. The current technology in Pakistan limits the companies in terms of how much load per square foot they can put on the wing.

There is a thought process along these lines in Pakistan, but, as far as real work is concerned, nothing is being done. *Several of the UAV programmes that are now being carried out will have the capability of carrying at least 150lb. *Khan goes on to emphasise that his company is not providing Americans with the drones being used in FATA, a common misconception.

*The Predator (MQ-1) and Reaper (MQ-9) cost approximately $4.5 and $10.5 million, respectively. Qureshi claims: We can develop a drone in half a million or a million dollars, not more. And it would be cheaper for us to operate the drone any day.
*
The operating cost for a drone is broken down into three elements: the actual weapon, the human costs and the engineering resources  which keep the aircraft flying and operational, both in the field and in the workshops  including their refurbishment and upgrading, and the people who are actually flying in the field. Pakistans human resources costs are at least 10 times cheaper than those in the US.

Qureshi expresses his discontent with the military establishment and its enterprises heading the drone programme, saying that there is no drive and vision in these organisations. According to him, all state programmes involving drone manufacturing are headed by brigadiers. They are all marking their time. Their motive is to do something that will result in their promotions. Soldiers just want another badge on their shoulders. A regular speaker at military platforms, he doesnt mince his words. You [military personnel] want development in military technology, so remember that there is no on-and-off button in this process, he tells them to their faces. This project should have continuity in research and development. The best you can do is to leave us alone. Let us develop it ourselves. Let us operate like a commercial entity.

The Predator, the Reaper and all related programmes in the world were privately driven innovations, claims Qureshi. None of them are state-established. They [the companies] come up with a vision and present it to the state which says, Very well, how much would it cost to develop this product? Whatever amount it is, the state gets that amount sanctioned and they tell the company to put up matching funds. Suppose the total developing cost is $50 million, we [the company] put up 15% and they [the government] give us 85%. These are the yardsticks one should consider. This project would be evaluated after two to three years. If youre not meeting the yardsticks, the state pulls the plug on you [the business].

*One could sense the anger in him. He mentions a recent decision by the Pakistani military establishment that he considers a blunder. In 2006, the army bought 28 UAVs from EMT, a German manufacturer, at a cost of $24 million, and the Pak Air Force bought 24 Italian Galalio Falcos  medium-altitude endurance tactical UAVs. Qureshi says that the same kind of UAVs could have been delivered for $4 million from within Pakistan.
*

The civilian government might still be unaware of Pakistans home-grown drone manufacturing capability and industry. Both Qureshi and Khaleeq claim that they have not been approached by the civilian leadership to develop drones with missile-carrying capability.

I dont know if they are aware of our existence, and we dont care if they do or if they dont. We are a private company and we havent approached the political leadership. We dont interact with politicians, Khaleeq says.

When asked if President Zardari is aware of this, Qureshi argues that he doesnt know if the president knows or not. Zardari himself is standing on one foot. But if the leadership commits to this project, we can have a drone carrying weapons, made and operated in Pakistan. Khan tells me that due to a lack of financial capital, his company is not moving in the direction of developing anything of the sort. We need the backing of the government, he urges.

*Currently, Pakistani-manufactured drones are closer to the American Shadow drone programme. Shadow 200 is being used by the US Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq. Shadow has small experimental delivery systems and relatively less endurance and range. Pakistani manufacturers have not copied UAV designs; they have been successful in developing their own UAV models. In addition, there is no doubt that Pakistan can develop its own UAVs because commercial companies have a proven track record.*

*Drones were first produced in 1983 by the Malir Air Defence School in Karachi. *Since then, others have gotten into the act. EWI, established in 1983, was approached by Suparco in 1993 to develop a UAV. Qureshi, EWIs founder and managing director, informs Newsline that the Pakistani establishment had approached him with a half-hearted effort to develop such a technology.

The chairman of Suparco told us in 1993 to develop a UAV in three months. We declined, as it was out of the question to develop something of the sort in such a short amount of time. Then they came back in 1995 and gave us a one-year period, Qureshi recalls. A while later, they ran out of money.

Coming from a military family, Qureshi has a fair idea of the ins and outs of the military. His father was a brigadier in the Pakistan Army. Qureshi, on the other hand, was in pursuit of bridging the gap between the East and the West in terms of technological advancement and exchange of information between people from both regions of the world. This obsession was what initially pushed him to found East West Bridge, now known as East West Infiniti.

According to Qureshi, the US military itself is not yet trained to operate UAVs. The person who operates the Predator [being used in Afghanistan and bordering Pakistan] is the contractor who supplies it. The functions of taking off, landing and flying the drone are carried out by the engineering element. Only the weaponry is handled by people in uniform. Essentially, the company that manufactures the drones has the joystick, and the person in uniform presses a button to release the missile to strike the target.

EWI initiated its serious UAV business model in 1995. Qureshi outlines their objective, to develop an unmanned aircraft covering a distance of 100km at 150 km/h, with an endurance time of four to five hours.* For a UAV to be successful, he explains, one needs to fly it as slowly as possible, to get good imagery from the sky.*

We collaborated with the newly-founded company Satuma in 1995, and formed Satuma Infiniti Technology, says Qureshi. We developed two UAV models and we had a fairly decent device. Also, every senior military officer was aware of our products.

*The ferry range of EWIs UAV was around 400km.* We gave our last demo in 1999 in Islamabad, two months before the military coup took place, he says.

In 2001, EWI changed course and abandoned developing drones because it was too costly. According to Qureshi, it was costing his company around Rs 1.5 million a month. Key costs were the senior employees  PhDs and autopilot experts. *Currently, EWI develops micro-drones and unmanned airships. Hardly two feet in size and electric-powered, the micro drone is like a bird-size spy plane. The unmanned airships fly at a ceiling of 3,000 feet with an autopilot mechanism, and can carry a payload of 50kg. *The sole buyer of this spy plane is Pakistans military.

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## mhacsan

cabatli_53 said:


> _*In the scope of Indigenous UAV (MALE) Development Project,
> The Signing Ceremony concerning cooperation agreement between Turkey (TAI) and Pakistan (AWC), *_
> 
> UAV Projects Signature Ceremonies (May 23rd, 2007)
> 
> Brothers, If Above source of official Turkish SSM do not mention any other Male development project different from TIHA, You are already a partner of TIHA-A MALE UAV...
> 
> 
> 
> TIHA-A



Thank u brother for such an information. it looks a good platform to develop and learn from. but do u know wheter TIHA-A has the ability to become CUAV, as our demand is paramount for this.

this is very encouraging to see such a cooperation between two brother countries plus the assitence provided by Turkish people, i thank u very much for this. ALLAH bless u

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## Dark_Star

hacsan i dont think there is any news around the TAI is converting TIHA into a armed UAV,,,,,

but you are right ... there is a general trend of converting a MALE UAV into a armed UAV later on if it proves to be highly reliable platform .....

rest shipping or transferring the technology to Pakistan is concerned .... I doubt that ... they are still in manufacturing stage of prototype variant of TIHA .... and UAV technology takes longer time to mature and establish than normal aircrafts.... seeing the TAI other UAV projects they havent been such big success in the past .... in short it will take sometime even for them to see what they have made and how good or bad it is .....
I hope they do help us in coming times ,,,, but that time doesn't look that near .... 

let me add one more thing ,,,, in such technologies if u buy some aircraft (including a UAV) from abroad .... you cant replicate it easily in Pakistan .... look in 50 years we have only been successful to manufacture mashak completely still its engine comes from abroad ....
summarizing ,,,, it is important that we develop our selves otherwise ,,, copying systems is not good ,,, u cant really do anything new and good with a technology which you didnt design yourself ...

i hope all of it makes some sense ....'

Dark_Star


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## mean_bird

* India voices concerns over drone sale to Pak​*

NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has reacted to a possible arms deal involving sale of US drones to Pakistan. Krishna has emphatically told America that an arms sale would create instability in the region adding that in the past, such weapons have always been used against India.

Pakistan has drawn up a big list of military purchases from the United States. But, what's worrying India is that Islamabad is lobbying hard to get the deadly Predators Drones from the United States.

The worries of New Delhi are that any military equipment bought by Pakistan is essentially meant to be used against India, said Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna.

Pakistan is seeking Predator Drones from the United States saying they need the drones to fight militancy along the Afghan border. But, invariably the drones would be used along the Indian border both for spying and combat missions, he worried

A list has been drawn up and they include helicopters, night vision devices, laser guided ammunition.

Predator drones are particularly worrisome as they constitute top of the line technology. They are unmanned aerial vehicles with weaponry that can accurately hit targets. The United States is using them extensively for fighting militants, including in parts of Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province area.

India does not have anything equivalent to the predators and there is concern about India having them. Currently India is working to get an equivalent of the predator. This is the Harop system from Israel but it will be a long time before India gets them, he added.


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## The Patriot

mean_bird said:


> * India voices concerns over drone sale to Pak​*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has reacted to a possible arms deal involving sale of US drones to Pakistan. Krishna has emphatically told America that an arms sale would create instability in the region adding that in the past, such weapons have always been used against India.
> 
> Pakistan has drawn up a big list of military purchases from the United States. But, what's worrying India is that Islamabad is lobbying hard to get the deadly Predators Drones from the United States.
> 
> The worries of New Delhi are that any military equipment bought by Pakistan is essentially meant to be used against India, said Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna.
> 
> Pakistan is seeking Predator Drones from the United States saying they need the drones to fight militancy along the Afghan border. But, invariably the drones would be used along the Indian border both for spying and combat missions, he worried
> 
> A list has been drawn up and they include helicopters, night vision devices, laser guided ammunition.
> 
> Predator drones are particularly worrisome as they constitute top of the line technology. They are unmanned aerial vehicles with weaponry that can accurately hit targets. The United States is using them extensively for fighting militants, including in parts of Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province area.
> 
> India does not have anything equivalent to the predators and there is concern about India having them. Currently India is working to get an equivalent of the predator. This is the Harop system from Israel but it will be a long time before India gets them, he added.



So it means that Pakistan should wait until India gets it first. That it is the India's right to acquire any weapons and not Pakistan's. India is five times big force than Pakistan but starts crying too much on any Pakistan deal.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

mean_bird said:


> * India voices concerns over drone sale to Pak​*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has reacted to a possible arms deal involving sale of US drones to Pakistan. Krishna has emphatically told America that an arms sale would create instability in the region adding that in the past, such weapons have always been used against India.
> 
> Pakistan has drawn up a big list of military purchases from the United States. But, what's worrying India is that Islamabad is lobbying hard to get the deadly Predators Drones from the United States.
> 
> The worries of New Delhi are that any military equipment bought by Pakistan is essentially meant to be used against India, said Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna.
> 
> Pakistan is seeking Predator Drones from the United States saying they need the drones to fight militancy along the Afghan border. But, invariably the drones would be used along the Indian border both for spying and combat missions, he worried
> 
> A list has been drawn up and they include helicopters, night vision devices, laser guided ammunition.
> 
> Predator drones are particularly worrisome as they constitute top of the line technology. They are unmanned aerial vehicles with weaponry that can accurately hit targets. The United States is using them extensively for fighting militants, including in parts of Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province area.
> 
> India does not have anything equivalent to the predators and there is concern about India having them. Currently India is working to get an equivalent of the predator. This is the Harop system from Israel but it will be a long time before India gets them, he added.


Whine, whine, whine - perhaps India should stop obtaining weapons as well - what exactly is she planning to do with them? 

Put them in a smelter and proclaim that she did her part to reduce weapons on earth?

It is interesting though that India decided to comment on this issue - is the US softening its opposition to selling Pakistan the Predator ...

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## DaRk WaVe

The Patriot said:


> So it means that Pakistan should wait until India gets it first. That it is the India's right to acquire any weapons and not Pakistan's. India is five times big force than Pakistan but starts crying too much on any Pakistan deal.



its their habit let them CRY HARDER

---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Whine, whine, whine - perhaps India should stop obtaining weapons as well - what exactly is she planning to do with them?
> 
> Put them in a smelter and proclaim that she did her part to reduce weapons on earth?
> 
> It is interesting though that India decided to comment on this issue - is the US softening its opposition to selling Pakistan the Predator ...



no they will hunt animals in land air and sea xxaxaxaxa!


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## muse

Easy people - US is not going to sell Predator system to Pakistan and the statements from Gilani are nothing but politcal posturing.

India on the other hand already operate Israeli Harpy and Indian defense industrial capablity is working hard to absorb and improve the technology. End of the day it's about technical capablity, even if the US "transferred" Predatory to Pakistan, Pakistan do not have the capablity to institutionalize the technology. 

Of course Pakistan does manufacture some UAV, why doesn't it employ these for better ISR?? it can use Cobra to deliver the business end, but it must first have refined the ISR capablity, perhaps it is in these fields that US commercial enterprises have be of assistance, help refine the sensor, communication and control aspects? Subsystems are more important than the brand name "predator"


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## Patriot

mean_bird said:


> * India voices concerns over drone sale to Pak​*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has reacted to a possible arms deal involving sale of US drones to Pakistan. Krishna has emphatically told America that an arms sale would create instability in the region adding that in the past, such weapons have always been used against India.
> 
> Pakistan has drawn up a big list of military purchases from the United States. But, what's worrying India is that Islamabad is lobbying hard to get the deadly Predators Drones from the United States.
> 
> The worries of New Delhi are that any military equipment bought by Pakistan is essentially meant to be used against India, said Indian External Affairs Minister S M Krishna.
> 
> Pakistan is seeking Predator Drones from the United States saying they need the drones to fight militancy along the Afghan border. But, invariably the drones would be used along the Indian border both for spying and combat missions, he worried
> 
> A list has been drawn up and they include helicopters, night vision devices, laser guided ammunition.
> 
> Predator drones are particularly worrisome as they constitute top of the line technology. They are unmanned aerial vehicles with weaponry that can accurately hit targets. The United States is using them extensively for fighting militants, including in parts of Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province area.
> 
> India does not have anything equivalent to the predators and there is concern about India having them. Currently India is working to get an equivalent of the predator. This is the Harop system from Israel but it will be a long time before India gets them, he added.


Indian dream of akhand bhaRAT will continue till the cows come home... In other words you can say "rasi jaal gai per bal nahin gaea" The destruction of akhand bhaRAT after having their *** ruled for 1000 years is something that will continue to haunt them till eternity..In other words folks, who gives a sh!t what Indians thinks what matters is what we are and where we are heading.We should jointly develop UAV with Turkey as they have the technology to do it.


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## glomex

Patriot said:


> Indian dream of akhand bhaRAT will continue till the cows come home... In other words you can say "rasi jaal gai per bal nahin gaea" The destruction of akhand bhaRAT after having their *** ruled for 1000 years is something that will continue to haunt them till eternity..In other words folks, who gives a sh!t what Indians thinks what matters is what we are and where we are heading.We should jointly develop UAV with Turkey as they have the technology to do it.



Same old..Akhand bharat Crap...not by any Indian but ....by a Pakistani......who does not understand the meaning of what he says....


No Indian on any forum speaks of this Akhand Bharat...apart from Pakistani folks....


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## cabatli_53

According to Turkish SSM plans, Turkish defence industry is going to start developing anti-radiation drones similar with Herons. According to planning specifications;

*Indigenous Anti-Radiasyon /attack UAV development project will start officially in 2010.. [500km range, 7 hours endurance, Fire-forget, RF guided UAV]*..


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## TaimiKhan

Was just hearing Dawn News today, and they mentioned that a ceremony had taken place at PAC for a Tactical UAV production line inauguration in collaboration with Italy. Its the Falco UAV and it seems now PAC is going to make the UAV which will give a huge boost to our surveillance capability. 
Few days ago was seeing the PAF official calendar in which they mentioned Joint Venture project with Italy in the description of the Falco UAV.

Falco UAV has great potential to grow into a more mature & capable UAV platform and the Italian firm is now eying for an Armed Version of Falco based on the customer requirements. 

So now i guess the only thing left to solve is the weapon platform, and the Chinese HJ-10 specifications have just been released and available at Jane's. It is said to be in the Hellfire missile class, also other versions namely AKD-10 & AR-1 are in development stage, may even be in operational stage. 

It would be an awesome integration of both and will help pakistan a lot in hunting down the militants.


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## TaimiKhan




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## Engr786

I think so Pakistan have 4 predators. & now president zardari demanding for the Global Hawk.


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## Engr786

50 Heron MALE (Medium Altitude, Long Endurance) UAVs from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) to India


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## mbaqurashi

Dear All,
I've came across an information that there are Photos available of those solders which are kept by India in 1971's indo-pak war and yet India didn't release them or not found. 

If any of you have any information that where i can find those photos, please let me know on my ID 'mbaqurashi@gmail.com' or at least post the info here. I'd be very obliged if anyone could provide me some web link.

Thanks and best regards.
Bilal Aziz
Lahore.


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## bc040400065

don't worry and forget USA drones pakistan is developing its own UCAV name Burrak a joint project between NESCOM and PAC. It will be arms with pakistan made laser guided missiles and navigation pod etc. 100% pakistani made.

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## NWO

Any idea when this thing will be up and running? And do you have any new article on it?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

there is a long article on rupee news but no pics...


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## faisaljaffery

Any updates on UCAV development projects????????


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## Tajdar adil

Pakistan's Defense Private Sector Emerges with Indigenous UAV Technology


By expert contributor, Mr. Riaz Haq
Posted, February 12, 2009 



Back in 1970, the American Army Gen. William Westmoreland is reported to have said: "On the battlefield of the future, enemy forces will be located, tracked and targeted almost instantaneously through the use of data links, computer-assisted intelligence and automated fire control.  I am confident the American people expect this country to take full advantage of its technology-to welcome and applaud the developments that will replace wherever possible the man with the machine." It seems that this vision from the 1970s is being realized today. One manifestation of it is the development and deployment of unmanned aerial vehicles by many nations, including Pakistan. 


Image source: INTEGRATED DYNAMICS :: A Complete UAV Solution Provider

The growing reliance on armed drones (aka Predators) by Americans in Afghanistan and Pakistan's FATA region to target militants has been making headlines with increasing casualties. 

This technology of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) or drones designed and manufactured in Pakistan has also been making news since the IDEAS (International Defense Exhibition and Seminar) 2008 event, a 5-day biennial arms show held November last year in Karachi, Pakistan. Among the largest foreign pavilions at the exhibition, Turkey had 28 companies and United States had 22. Other major exhibitors came from China, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, South Korea, South Africa, the Ukraine and the United Kingdom. Among other products, Pakistani companies showed off JF-17 fighter plane built by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in partnership with China's Chengdu Aircraft, Al-Khalid main battle tank, and a variety of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) designed, developed and built in Pakistan.

While offering employment to thousands, and strengthening Pakistan's defense, the growing indigenous sophistication of many of the private sector companies is also becoming an attractive investment opportunity.

Integrated Dynamics

One such Company is Integrated Dynamics, a privately held Pakistani company that drew attention at the IDEAS 2008 expo. It is a developer and manufacturer of unmanned aerial vehicles which is exported to Australia, Spain, South Korea and Libya and the United States. The UAV Company is an example of a new generation of private defense companies in Pakistan that have grown with the emerging needs of Pakistani military and export opportunities to both military and civilian sectors abroad.

Integrated Dynamics is a full-service UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) systems provider based in Karachi, Pakistan. The company has been in business since 1997 and designs and integrates UAV systems primarily for the Government of Pakistan, the Pakistan armed forces and export.



The company says they are committed to the use of the UAV system as a scientific and defensive tool that can be used to save lives and monitor potentially hostile environments for human personnel. The company also makes drones such as the turbojet-powered Tornado decoy, which can fly up to 200 kilometers, and emit false radar signals to "confuse enemy air defenses into thinking they are attacking aircraft," according to Defense News of Pakistan.

In addition to supplying drones to the Pakistani military, the company exports its products to Australia, Spain, South Korea and Libya and the United States. The US Homeland Security Department uses ID's Border Eagle surveillance drone for border patrol duties. Integrated Dynamics' products cost only a fraction of the cost of comparable products made in the United States and Europe. According to the Karachi-based company, ID UAV prices start from about USD 20,000 while in comparison UAV products made in the West start from about USD 200,000. The ID models have operational ranges of 20 to 1,600 kilometers. 

Integrated Dynamics had begun to develop the Firefly mini-rocket UAV in late 2004 in response to the Pakistani army's operational requirements for a high-speed, short-range observation system that could be used in the high-altitude environments of northern Pakistan. A basic system of such sort costs around USD 3,000 and comprises four rockets, a launcher, a carry case, datalink and a PDA-based ground control station. 

Emerging Sophistication from a Cottage Industry

Pakistan's arms manufacturing sector has long been considered to be a cottage industry. The dusty little town of Darra Adam Khel,only a half-hour drive from Peshawar, reminds visitors of America's Wild West. The craftsmen of this town are manufacturers and suppliers of small arms to the tribal residents of the nation's Federally Administered Tribal Areas who carry weapons as part of their ancient culture. The skilled craftsmen of FATA make revolvers, automatic pistols, shotguns and AK-47 rifles. Until five years ago, the list also had items such as anti-personnel mines, sub-machine guns, small cannons and even rocket launchers. The Pakistani government has forced the tribesmen to stop making heavy assault weapons to try and prevent the Taliban and Al Qaeda from having access to such weapons.

Pakistan's arms industry has come a long way from making small arms as a cottage industry in the last few decades. The US and Western arms embargoes imposed on Pakistan at critical moments in history have proved to be a blessing in disguise. In particular, the problems Pakistan faced in the aftermath of the Pressler Amendment in 1992 became an opportunity for the country to rely on indigenous development and production of defense equipment. 

Pakistan's Military Industrial Complex

The country now boasts a powerful industrial, technological and research-based developing and manufacturing sector for its armed forces and exports a wide variety of small and large weapons ranging from modern fighter jets, battle tanks, armored vehicles, frigates and submarines to unmanned aerial vehicles and high tech firearms and personal grenade launchers for urban combat. Some of these items were on display at IDEAS 2008. 

Pakistan has become an increasingly important player in the world arms industry, a global industry and business which manufactures and sells weapons and military technology and equipment. Arms production companies, also referred to as Defense Contractors, produce arms mainly for the armed forces of nation states. Products include guns, ammunition, missiles, military aircraft, military vehicles, ships, electronic Systems, and more. The arms industry also conducts significant research and development. Pakistan's major defense manufacturing companies are owned and operated by Pakistan's military. 

According to Business Monitor, Pakistan's defense industry contains over 20 major public sector units (PSUs) and over 100 private-sector firms. The majority of major weapons systems production and assembly is undertaken by the state-owned PSUs, while the private-sector supplies parts, components, bladed weapons and field equipment. 

Major PSUs include the Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) and the Pakistan Machine Tool Factory. Multinational presence in Pakistan is limited, although joint production or engineering support in the development of certain armaments has recently occurred with companies such as DCN International and the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group. 

JF-17 Jointly developed by Paksiatn and China

Image source: pakwheels.com


IDEAS 2000, Pakistan's first major arms show, was organized after former President Musharraf assumed leadership of the country in the wake of the 1999 bloodless coup that toppled the Nawaz Sharif government. At the show, the former president emphasized the need for the growth of Pakistan's defense industry and private sector involvement in R&D, manufacturing and marketing of arms. Held every two years since the year 2000, the show has become a runaway success. It has helped Pakistan and other friendly nations to show off their wares, find customers, share knowledge, build bilateral partnerships, encourage scientific innovation and learning among young people and made visitors and Pakistani citizens more aware of the role the defense industry plays in national defense and economy. 

World Arms Market

It is estimated that yearly, over USD 1 trillion are spent on military expenditures worldwide (2% of World GDP). Part of this goes to the procurement of military hardware and services from the military industry. The combined arms sales of the top 100 largest arms producing companies amounted to an estimated USD 315 billion in 2006. In 2004 over USD 30 billion were spent in the international arms trade (excluding domestic arms sales). Many industrialized countries have a domestic arms industry to supply their own military forces. Some countries also have a substantial legal or illegal domestic trade in weapons for use by its citizens. The illegal trade in small arms is prevalent in many countries and regions affected by political instability.

Pakistan's Arms Business

In a July 2008 interview with Pakistan's Dawn newspaper, Major General Mohammad Farooq, Director General of the Defense Export Promotion Organization, claimed that Pakistan's defense exports have tripled to around USD 300 million because of the quality of its ammunition, anti-tank guided missiles, rocket launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles. He said exports to South Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries had increased significantly. It has been reported that Sri Lanka has purchased cluster bombs, deep penetration bombs and rockets and UAVs from Pakistan. 

General Farooq said optical instruments like night vision devices, laser range-finders and designators, laser threat sensors, artillery armor mortars and munitions, mine detectors, anti-tank rifles, missile boats, different types of tear gases, fuses of unarmed vehicles, security equipment and sporting and hunting guns were also being manufactured in Pakistan. "The fuses are being purchased by countries like Italy, France and Spain," he said.

In recent times however, Pakistan has come under criticism by human rights groups for being a leading manufacturer and exporter of land-mines, cluster bombs and depleted uranium munitions.

Pakistan's UAV Industry

The three main branches of the Pakistani military are evaluating UAVs made in Pakistan and the rest of the world for purchase and deployment. 

Pakistan has been eager to boost its capabilities for high-tech aerial warfare and restructure and reorient its military to respond to the new and emerging challenges of combating insurgents. A number of public and private sector companies have been engaged in research, development and manufacturing of unmanned aerial vehicles as a part of this initiative. The public sector companies include Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Air Weapons Complex and National Development Complex.

This growing interest by Pakistani military and also foreign companies and governments has helped spawn several private Pakistani UAV companies specializing in air-frames, launch and propulsion, flight control, tele-command and control systems, signal intelligence, training simulators, etc. In addition to Integrated Dynamics mentioned earlier, other private companies involved in UAV development and manufacturing include, East-West Infinity, Satuma and Global Industrial Defense Solutions. 

Between the public and private sector UAVs developed in Pakistan, there is a long list of products. In addition to Integrated Dynamics described above, here are three more UAV companies in Pakistan.


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## ahsanraza81

PAKISTAN > Unmanned Aerial Vehicles 

* Burraq*

Reconnaissance, strike

Unmanned aerial vehicle under development by PAF and NESCOM, armed with laser-guided missiles and laser designator. Reported to be undergoing flight-testing in May 2009.[111]

*SATUMA Jasoos II*
Bravo+

Tactical reconnaissance, training

Formally inducted in 2009.[112] Telemetry and ground equipment for 3rd batch of UAVs ordered July 2009,[113] 3rd batch delivered August 2009.[114] In use as "primary work horse for UAV Operations and Training Program."

* SELEX Galileo Falco*
First production Falco UAV System reported to be ready for delivery to PAF (launch customer) in January 2007.[116] 5 Falco UAV Systems ordered, including 25 Falco UAVs. Formally inducted in 2009,[112] 2 systems (10 UAVs) in service by March 2009.[117] Co-manufacture at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex began in August 2009.


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## muse

I can understand problems developing command and control avionics, but why have Pakistan not produced UAV that have the capacity to lift and carry 500-1000 lbs? After all why are the frame and power plant, at least not developed for such a craft


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## araz

muse said:


> I can understand problems developing command and control avionics, but why have Pakistan not produced UAV that have the capacity to lift and carry 500-1000 lbs? After all why are the frame and power plant, at least not developed for such a craft



We just dont have the industrial setup and know how to develop the engines , cameras and parts to support such a project. I think we will follow the same line as the PAF with gradual production and indigenization with Chinese help. However I personally think that we should pour some money into local industries and see the results of their endeavours.
Araz


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## Chogy

Remember that Predator is very low tech in terms of airframe and propulsion. It uses a Rotax (snowmobile) engine modified for aviation. Any country that can build a light aircraft can make a Predator-like system.

Of course the hard part is the sensor suite, weapon, and data-link. But with the huge number of highly-trained IT experts, it shouldn't be that hard.

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## razgriz19

right, Reaper/Globalhawk are the ones that really are technological marvel!


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## burraak

Very Nice looking


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## burraak

araz said:


> We just dont have the industrial setup and know how to develop the engines , cameras and parts to support such a project. I think we will follow the same line as the PAF with gradual production and indigenization with Chinese help. However I personally think that we should pour some money into local industries and see the results of their endeavours.
> Araz



An industrial setup is simply not required since UAV are not as high tech as a FighterJet every thing is available ready-made just like Ipads Package on Package technology U can use rotax 914 or even K-8 trainer engine and Turkish AselFlir 300T that it.rest of the avionics control technology is already available in Pakistan. And it is surprising to see that why our military is not taking interest in glider type UAV rather piling up a scrap of tiny UAV's.

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## Mosamania

razgriz19 said:


> right, Reaper/Globalhawk are the ones that really are technological marvel!



But the cost for those two is preposterous.

Each reaper air craft (Not the whole system) costs 30 Million$ and Each Globalhawk aircraft (again not the whole system) costs 178Million$.

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## ANG

Hi, how stupid is the current government. They keep begging the US for a technology they will never get, and do not seem to have any type of self-respect. Pakistan needs to develop this technology themselves, or simply buy/manufacture it from China. I have heard rumors of the Buraq UAV, but nothing concrete has developed.

Indigenous spy planes:


Indigenous spy planes: No headway in transfer of drone technology
Published: September 15, 2011
Statement comes when Pakistan tries to secure drone technology from the US. 

ISLAMABAD: 
There has been no headway in the acquisition of sophisticated technology for aerial surveillance since no developed country is willing to share it with the country, according to a written reply submitted to the Senate by Minister for Defence Production, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi.

The statement came at a time when the Pakistani establishment is in the process of securing drone technology from the US and demanding an end to drone strikes in the tribal belt. Pakistan Air Force had claimed that it had test-fired anti-drone technology in collaboration with the state defence corporation. Elahis predecessor Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi had also stated that the PAF had developed pilotless drone aircraft on its own and was consulting with the Chinese to improve their capability.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 15th, 2011.


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## Manticore

a small video i made in under 10 minutes , hopefully covers most of the birds..


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## Manticore




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## muse

Antibody

Can you break this for us - what exactly are problem areas ? Pakistan cruise missiles use a small jet engine, how then should we take suggestions that Pakistan are unable to develop propulsion? Is it optical equipment? is it fire control? -- can you just please explain where the problem is?


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## Bratva

muse said:


> Antibody
> 
> Can you break this for us - what exactly are problem areas ? Pakistan cruise missiles use a small jet engine, how then should we take suggestions that Pakistan are unable to develop propulsion? Is it optical equipment? is it fire control? -- can you just please explain where the problem is?



The Sat Link and the decent optical suit.


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## muse

Optical suites are commercially available - but why is a Sat link necessary? Satellite is not the only way to receive and transmit date


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## ANG

Hi, this article briefly mentions Pakistan in it.


http://www.nytimes.com/

Coming Soon: The Drone Arms RaceBy SCOTT SHANE
Published: October 8, 2011 
Scott Shane is a national security correspondent for The New York Times. 

AT the Zhuhai air show in southeastern China last November, Chinese companies startled some Americans by unveiling 25 different models of remotely controlled aircraft and showing video animation of a missile-armed drone taking out an armored vehicle and attacking a United States aircraft carrier. 

The presentation appeared to be more marketing hype than military threat; the event is China&#8217;s biggest aviation market, drawing both Chinese and foreign military buyers. But it was stark evidence that the United States&#8217; near monopoly on armed drones was coming to an end, with far-reaching consequences for American security, international law and the future of warfare. 

Eventually, the United States will face a military adversary or terrorist group armed with drones, military analysts say. But what the short-run hazard experts foresee is not an attack on the United States, which faces no enemies with significant combat drone capabilities, but the political and legal challenges posed when another country follows the American example. The Bush administration, and even more aggressively the Obama administration, embraced an extraordinary principle: that the United States can send this robotic weapon over borders to kill perceived enemies, even American citizens, who are viewed as a threat. 

&#8220;Is this the world we want to live in?&#8221; asks Micah Zenko, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. &#8220;Because we&#8217;re creating it.&#8221; 

What was a science-fiction scenario not much more than a decade ago has become today&#8217;s news. In Iraq and Afghanistan, military drones have become a routine part of the arsenal. In Pakistan, according to American officials, strikes from Predators and Reapers operated by the C.I.A. have killed more than 2,000 militants; the number of civilian casualties is hotly debated. In Yemen last month, an American citizen was, for the first time, the intended target of a drone strike, as Anwar al-Awlaki, the Qaeda propagandist and plotter, was killed along with a second American, Samir Khan. 

If China, for instance, sends killer drones into Kazakhstan to hunt minority Uighur Muslims it accuses of plotting terrorism, what will the United States say? What if India uses remotely controlled craft to hit terrorism suspects in Kashmir, or Russia sends drones after militants in the Caucasus? American officials who protest will likely find their own example thrown back at them. 

&#8220;The problem is that we&#8217;re creating an international norm&#8221; &#8212; asserting the right to strike preemptively against those we suspect of planning attacks, argues Dennis M. Gormley, a senior research fellow at the University of Pittsburgh and author of &#8220;Missile Contagion,&#8221; who has called for tougher export controls on American drone technology. &#8220;The copycatting is what I worry about most.&#8221; 

The qualities that have made lethal drones so attractive to the Obama administration for counterterrorism appeal to many countries and, conceivably, to terrorist groups: a capacity for leisurely surveillance and precise strikes, modest cost, and most important, no danger to the operator, who may sit in safety thousands of miles from the target. 

To date, only the United States, Israel (against Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza) and Britain (in Afghanistan) are known to have used drones for strikes. But American defense analysts count more than 50 countries that have built or bought unmanned aerial vehicles, or U.A.V.&#8217;s, and the number is rising every month. Most are designed for surveillance, but as the United States has found, adding missiles or bombs is hardly a technical challenge. 

&#8220;The virtue of most U.A.V.&#8217;s is that they have long wings and you can strap anything to them,&#8221; Mr. Gormley says. That includes video cameras, eavesdropping equipment and munitions, he says. &#8220;It&#8217;s spreading like wildfire.&#8221; 

So far, the United States has a huge lead in the number and sophistication of unmanned aerial vehicles (about 7,000, by one official&#8217;s estimate, mostly unarmed). The Air Force prefers to call them not U.A.V.&#8217;s but R.P.A.&#8217;s, or remotely piloted aircraft, in acknowledgment of the human role; Air Force officials should know, since their service is now training more pilots to operate drones than fighters and bombers. 

Philip Finnegan, director of corporate analysis for the Teal Group, a company that tracks defense and aerospace markets, says global spending on research and procurement of drones over the next decade is expected to total more than $94 billion, including $9 billion on remotely piloted combat aircraft. 

Israel and China are aggressively developing and marketing drones, and Russia, Iran, India, Pakistan and several other countries are not far behind. The Defense Security Service, which protects the Pentagon and its contractors from espionage, warned in a report last year that American drone technology had become a prime target for foreign spies. 

Last December, a surveillance drone crashed in an El Paso neighborhood; it had been launched, it turned out, by the Mexican police across the border. Even Hezbollah, the Lebanese militant group, has deployed drones, an Iranian design capable of carrying munitions and diving into a target, says P. W. Singer of the Brookings Institution, whose 2009 book &#8220;Wired for War&#8221; is a primer on robotic combat. 

Late last month, a 26-year-old man from a Boston suburb was arrested and charged with plotting to load a remotely controlled aircraft with plastic explosives and crash it into the Pentagon or United States Capitol. His supposed co-conspirators were actually undercover F.B.I. agents, and it was unclear that his scheme could have done much damage. But it was an unnerving harbinger, says John Villasenor, professor of electrical engineering at the University of California, Los Angeles. He notes that the Army had just announced a $5 million contract for a backpack-size drone called a Switchblade that can carry an explosive payload into a target; such a weapon will not long be beyond the capabilities of a terrorist network. 

&#8220;If they are skimming over rooftops and trees, they will be almost impossible to shoot down,&#8221; he maintains. 

It is easy to scare ourselves by imagining terrorist drones rigged not just to carry bombs but to spew anthrax or scatter radioactive waste. Speculation that Al Qaeda might use exotic weapons has so far turned out to be just that. But the technological curve for drones means the threat can no longer be discounted. 

&#8220;I think of where the airplane was at the start of World War I: at first it was unarmed and limited to a handful of countries,&#8221; Mr. Singer says. &#8220;Then it was armed and everywhere. That is the path we&#8217;re on.&#8221;


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## Luftwaffe

We all are still waiting on an Armed Indigenous UAV as of yet we have heard or seen non. 
Does it mean Pakistan will rely on China and Turkey for the next couple of decades. The number of UAVs are increasing.

It is understandable that many equipments and other sensors suite, weapon, and data-link etc are required but they too are not some alien technologies China and Turkey can help in this regards. 

Someone mentioned K-8 Engine, I did mention K-8 as a UAV platform and its engine on this forum a long time ago, K-8 could be used as a UAV plaform If PAF puts an effort into it a limited numbers could be developed for WOT and for the use in long run, radical idea I presume to others? 

I do not believe the problem is acquiring technology and equipment, I guess the problem is funds and UAVs not being given the level of priority. We have to try you strive and try to make something out of nothing or anything this psyche of waiting and waiting for someone to come to help to end but well who are we talking about! 

K-8
General characteristics
Length: 11.6 m (38 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 9.63 m (31 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.21 m (13 ft 9 in)
Empty weight: 2,687 kg (5,924 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 4,330 kg (9,546 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan, 16.01 kN (3,600 lb)

Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 0.75 (800 km/h, 498 mph)
Range: 2,250 km (1,398 mi)
Service ceiling: 13,000 m (42,651 ft)
Wing loading: 254.40 kg m-2 ()


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## Peaceful Civilian

muse said:


> Antibody
> Pakistan are unable to develop propulsion??


How can you can this?? Can't you see propulsion system of CM Babur.


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## Riz

According to my source our first arm drone is not buraq but it is shahpur , this bird has been already tested and completing its trail with a self made weapon, also i head Ra'ad ALCM range has been extended to 1000 plus km.


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## ziaulislam

riz1978 said:


> According to my source our first arm drone is not buraq but it is shahpur , this bird has been already tested and completing its trail with a self made weapon, also i head Ra'ad ALCM range has been extended to 1000 plus km.


 any source from where did you heard it..


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## Skorpion

Luftwaffe said:


> We all are still waiting on an Armed Indigenous UAV as of yet we have heard or seen non.
> Does it mean Pakistan will rely on China and Turkey for the next couple of decades. The number of UAVs are increasing.
> 
> It is understandable that many equipments and other sensors suite, weapon, and data-link etc are required but they too are not some alien technologies China and Turkey can help in this regards.
> 
> Someone mentioned K-8 Engine, I did mention K-8 as a UAV platform and its engine on this forum a long time ago, K-8 could be used as a UAV plaform If PAF puts an effort into it a limited numbers could be developed for WOT and for the use in long run, radical idea I presume to others?
> 
> I do not believe the problem is acquiring technology and equipment, I guess the problem is funds and UAVs not being given the level of priority. We have to try you strive and try to make something out of nothing or anything this psyche of waiting and waiting for someone to come to help to end but well who are we talking about!
> 
> K-8
> General characteristics
> Length: 11.6 m (38 ft 0 in)
> Wingspan: 9.63 m (31 ft 7 in)
> Height: 4.21 m (13 ft 9 in)
> Empty weight: 2,687 kg (5,924 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 4,330 kg (9,546 lb)
> Powerplant: 1 × Garrett TFE731-2A-2A turbofan, 16.01 kN (3,600 lb)
> 
> Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 0.75 (800 km/h, 498 mph)
> Range: 2,250 km (1,398 mi)
> Service ceiling: 13,000 m (42,651 ft)
> Wing loading: 254.40 kg m-2 ()



we haven't developed a compete-able propeller based UCAV and you're talking about bringing jet into it. looks funny when comes to ringing the bell.
as far as the biggest problem in developing the UAV's are concerned.. its not the power plant but its the GCU (ground control unit) for which we're totally dependent on CHIAN and others. 
i've heard that the GCU that pakistani engineers developed was only able to Taxi the bird for a shorter distance LOL..

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------




riz1978 said:


> According to my source our first arm drone is not buraq but it is shahpur , this bird has been already tested and completing its trail with a self made weapon, also i head Ra'ad ALCM range has been extended to 1000 plus km.



1000 km is a hell of range and i am questioning also about the source


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## Secur

> as far as the biggest problem in developing the UAV's are concerned.. its not the power plant but its the GCU (ground control unit) for which we're totally dependent on CHIAN and others.
> i've heard that the GCU that pakistani engineers developed was only able to Taxi the bird for a shorter distance LOL..


 Source ? and whats CHIAN ? Who told you about the GCU and what it was able to do ?
There are much more knowledgeable members than you who are telling exactly the opposite thing ... So i will take their word ... Pakistan's been building UAV for almost 2 decades with exports to US ... and you think we cant build a damn GCU ?


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## Skorpion

Secur said:


> Source ? and whats CHIAN ? Who told you about the GCU and what it was able to do ?
> There are much more knowledgeable members than you who are telling exactly the opposite thing ... So i will take their word ... Pakistan's been building UAV for almost 2 decades with exports to US ... and you think we cant build a damn GCU ?



em not asking you to believe me. em just telling you what i know.. now its upto you how you take it. as far as GCU is concerned, its not just three letter word but much above than an ordinary person's thought, you said pakistan's uav's have been exported to USA, any details about the specifications of those UAVs? what kind of GCS have been utilized for them, where did it come from? any idea from you side. The idea behind developing a GCS that controls a combat UAV flying at thousands of Km away from its station with hundreds of parallel control commands being transferred and handled to very minute accuracies is not as simple as you think. i don't know what you're up to but i can stand by my opinion. its just because i know doesn't matter how..

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

it was CHINA not CHAIN  lol


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## Secur

Skorpion said:


> em not asking you to believe me. em just telling you what i know.. now its upto you how you take it. as far as GCU is concerned, its not just three letter word but much above than an ordinary person's thought, you said pakistan's uav's have been exported to USA, any details about the specifications of those UAVs? what kind of GCS have been utilized for them, where did it come from? any idea from you side. The idea behind developing a GCS that controls a combat UAV flying at thousands of Km away from its station with hundreds of parallel control commands being transferred and handled to very minute accuracies is not as simple as you think. i don't know what you're up to but i can stand by my opinion. its just because i know doesn't matter how...


 Continue standing by your opinions ... I am not trying to force mine on you ...

and about GCU ... Did you bother reading the thread or chose to believe the usual propaganda that Pakistan has to import/reverse engineer everything ? As for Pakistan being dependent on China for Ground Control Stations ... Here's some info for you


*G C S - 2 0 0 0
*
_The GCS-2000 is a field-proven system that provides continuous transmission and reliable reception of UAV data. It offers a complete C-4I solution when combined with the ATPS-2000 Tracking system and our microwave telecommand and control and video & data links. This rugged system is easily transportable and has minimal electrical requirements.
_
_Designed for UAV system C4I out to 250 km range without the need for repeater systems, the GCS-2000 can be ready for operation within an hour of arrival at the site. User-friendly software and setups reduce crew requirements and operator training. The GCS-2000 is designed around a ruggedised shelter with three operator stations for a Mission Commander, Pilot, and Observer or payload operator. Each station is equipped with hot-swappable PC&#8217;s for redundancy.
_





*G C S - 1 2 0 0
*
_The GCS-1200 is a portable, stand-alone, ground control station that offers UAV control, data linking and interfaces for the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking System. The GCS-1200 can track UAV&#8217;s out to a 100 km range and incorporates a PC, data display monitor, antenna driver interface, the GCR-1300 ground data receiver, and AC/DC power supplies. Simplified operation and mounting functionality in LandRover type vehicles make it a versatile and field-proven data centric system._


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## Bukhari.syed

Burraq will be a good addition in next few years...


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## Skorpion

Secur said:


> Continue standing by your opinions ... I am not trying to force mine on you ...
> 
> and about GCU ... Did you bother reading the thread or chose to believe the usual propaganda that Pakistan has to import/reverse engineer everything ? As for Pakistan being dependent on China for Ground Control Stations ... Here's some info for you
> 
> 
> *G C S - 2 0 0 0
> *
> _The GCS-2000 is a field-proven system that provides continuous transmission and reliable reception of UAV data. It offers a complete C-4I solution when combined with the ATPS-2000 Tracking system and our microwave telecommand and control and video & data links. This rugged system is easily transportable and has minimal electrical requirements.
> _
> _Designed for UAV system C4I out to 250 km range without the need for repeater systems, the GCS-2000 can be ready for operation within an hour of arrival at the site. User-friendly software and setups reduce crew requirements and operator training. The GCS-2000 is designed around a ruggedised shelter with three operator stations for a Mission Commander, Pilot, and Observer or payload operator. Each station is equipped with hot-swappable PCs for redundancy.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *G C S - 1 2 0 0
> *
> _The GCS-1200 is a portable, stand-alone, ground control station that offers UAV control, data linking and interfaces for the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking System. The GCS-1200 can track UAVs out to a 100 km range and incorporates a PC, data display monitor, antenna driver interface, the GCR-1300 ground data receiver, and AC/DC power supplies. Simplified operation and mounting functionality in LandRover type vehicles make it a versatile and field-proven data centric system._


 the systems that you've mentioned i did study on the integrated system website from where u got them and these are limited range system with data transmission limits and can only be used for small systems. not for a UACV  
and as far copying is concerned, i believe that pakistan have talent for copying. and it copies in such a way that no one can find out  pakistan rocks!


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## air marshal

*The Burraq UCAV: Say hello to Pakistan&#8217;s first domestically produced armed drone*
December 4, 2011

Since the war on terror started in Afghanistan back in 2001, the United States Air Force has employed various different UAV platforms to target insurgents and the Taliban. Both on Afghan soil as well as in Pakistani territory, with the covert approval of the Pakistan government. Observing the efficacy of UAV platforms like the Predator, the Pakistani military establishment requested the United States to equip it with UAVs so that the war on terror could be prosecuted with more efficacy on the part of the Pakistani military. However these requests were denied repeatedly and America cited the potential use of these UAV platforms in military theaters outside the Afghan Pakistan border (i.e. India) as a flimsy excuse. Faced with these denials, but unwavering in its resolve to achieve its objectives, Pakistan undertook a domestic UAV development program. Even prior to Predator requisition requests being turned down, the Pakistani military had already invested in various autonomous target drones, built both by the private and public sectors. Here at TechLahore, we covered Pakistani drone developments a couple of years ago. 

In fact, we pointed out that the level of sophistication was such that &#8211; in a rather ironic twist -private Pakistani drone manufacturers were exporting UAVs even to the United States homeland security department for oversight applications on the US-Mexico border.

Since then, much has happened. Pakistan entered into a deal with the Italian firm, Selex-Galileo, for the licensed production of fairly capable UAV aircraft at the Kamra Aeronautical facilities. In addition, the Pakistan Navy also acquired rotorcraft drones from foreign sources. Separately, the Pakistan Army has pursued partnerships with China and has incented local manufacturers to continue to develop more advanced platforms within the country. One of the more promising UCAV projects currently in progress in Pakistan is the Burraq armed drone. Burraq is envisioned as a high endurance, long-range, over the horizon, armed UAV aircraft. For the last four years it has been under development and rumors are now surfacing that it may be ready for deployment. At the recent Zhuhai airshow in China, in which the Pakistan Air Force participated with its JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, Chinese manufacturers also displayed miniaturized lightweight missiles that were particularly suited for carriage on a drone. Various parts of this sprawling Pakistani drone development program are coming together, in partnership with China &#8211; weapons development, control systems development, propulsion, airframe, ground stations and much else. The Burraq will only the first in a line of capable, armed Pakistani drones.

And soon. The Burraq, it seems, will be flying in early 2012.

The Pakistani UAV program is a wonderful example of the breadth of technological capability that exists in the country, its ability to collaborate internationally without relying on problem-ridden dealings with America, and the benefits of investing in local development and local manufacturing as opposed to wiring a ton of money to a foreign country and importing somebody else&#8217;s equipment (Saudi Arabia style). As with the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, Pakistan will discover that the flexibility of owning and running a domestically developed military platform allows unending customization, full control of capabilities, and absolutely no worries with regards to security or someone else knowing its true performance, or even inhibiting the capabilities by doctoring the IFF system or other internal electronics. Not only that, but for private technological firms based in Pakistan a program of this nature creates tremendous economic opportunity. A variety of different inputs, ranging from materials to software to optics to electronics and propulsion technologies are required to build a high-tech UAV. A sophisticated military program such as the Burraq will lead not only to an improvement in Pakistan&#8217;s defensive and offensive military capabilities, but also in significant benefits for the economy and local industry.

We hope that in future, with military programs such as Burraq, the continued development of the spectacularly successful JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft and its various space technology ventures, Pakistan will continue to create domestic research and development capabilities which will ensure a brighter future for its people and a credible defense against any would-be aggressor.

Say hello to Pakistan&#8217;s first domestically produced armed drone: The Burraq UCAV | TechLahore

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## dilpakistani

air marshal said:


> *The Burraq UCAV: Say hello to Pakistans first domestically produced armed drone*
> December 4, 2011
> 
> Since the war on terror started in Afghanistan back in 2001, the United States Air Force has employed various different UAV platforms to target insurgents and the Taliban. Both on Afghan soil as well as in Pakistani territory, with the covert approval of the Pakistan government. Observing the efficacy of UAV platforms like the Predator, the Pakistani military establishment requested the United States to equip it with UAVs so that the war on terror could be prosecuted with more efficacy on the part of the Pakistani military. However these requests were denied repeatedly and America cited the potential use of these UAV platforms in military theaters outside the Afghan Pakistan border (i.e. India) as a flimsy excuse. Faced with these denials, but unwavering in its resolve to achieve its objectives, Pakistan undertook a domestic UAV development program. Even prior to Predator requisition requests being turned down, the Pakistani military had already invested in various autonomous target drones, built both by the private and public sectors. Here at TechLahore, we covered Pakistani drone developments a couple of years ago.
> 
> In fact, we pointed out that the level of sophistication was such that  in a rather ironic twist -private Pakistani drone manufacturers were exporting UAVs even to the United States homeland security department for oversight applications on the US-Mexico border.
> 
> Since then, much has happened. Pakistan entered into a deal with the Italian firm, Selex-Galileo, for the licensed production of fairly capable UAV aircraft at the Kamra Aeronautical facilities. In addition, the Pakistan Navy also acquired rotorcraft drones from foreign sources. Separately, the Pakistan Army has pursued partnerships with China and has incented local manufacturers to continue to develop more advanced platforms within the country. One of the more promising UCAV projects currently in progress in Pakistan is the Burraq armed drone. Burraq is envisioned as a high endurance, long-range, over the horizon, armed UAV aircraft. For the last four years it has been under development and rumors are now surfacing that it may be ready for deployment. At the recent Zhuhai airshow in China, in which the Pakistan Air Force participated with its JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, Chinese manufacturers also displayed miniaturized lightweight missiles that were particularly suited for carriage on a drone. Various parts of this sprawling Pakistani drone development program are coming together, in partnership with China  weapons development, control systems development, propulsion, airframe, ground stations and much else. The Burraq will only the first in a line of capable, armed Pakistani drones.
> 
> And soon. The Burraq, it seems, will be flying in early 2012.
> 
> The Pakistani UAV program is a wonderful example of the breadth of technological capability that exists in the country, its ability to collaborate internationally without relying on problem-ridden dealings with America, and the benefits of investing in local development and local manufacturing as opposed to wiring a ton of money to a foreign country and importing somebody elses equipment (Saudi Arabia style). As with the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, Pakistan will discover that the flexibility of owning and running a domestically developed military platform allows unending customization, full control of capabilities, and absolutely no worries with regards to security or someone else knowing its true performance, or even inhibiting the capabilities by doctoring the IFF system or other internal electronics. Not only that, but for private technological firms based in Pakistan a program of this nature creates tremendous economic opportunity. A variety of different inputs, ranging from materials to software to optics to electronics and propulsion technologies are required to build a high-tech UAV. A sophisticated military program such as the Burraq will lead not only to an improvement in Pakistans defensive and offensive military capabilities, but also in significant benefits for the economy and local industry.
> 
> We hope that in future, with military programs such as Burraq, the continued development of the spectacularly successful JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft and its various space technology ventures, Pakistan will continue to create domestic research and development capabilities which will ensure a brighter future for its people and a credible defense against any would-be aggressor.
> 
> Say hello to Pakistans first domestically produced armed drone: The Burraq UCAV | TechLahore


 
Any pic of it ?


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## Skorpion

dilpakistani said:


> Any pic of it ?



imagine it in dreams!!


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## White Lightning

Which base attacking CIA UAVs in Afghanistan?


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## IHK_PK

What happened with the Pak navy's UAV Cam-copter S-100 deal, an Austrian rotor craft, which were evaluated by us in 2008? any body knows about that?


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## farhan_9909

True?any one know about this?any update about the local laser guided missile +the designator?


> Latest news shows that it can carry a payload of 200 KG and it will start its operations in 2012.



NESCOM Burraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## IHK_PK

So. No reply. strange. no body knows about a thing? c-mon mods tell me something.. at least a big NO.


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## Skorpion

IHK_PK said:


> So. No reply. strange. no body knows about a thing? c-mon mods tell me something.. at least a big NO.


 
what u wana know??


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## Bratva

Skorpion said:


> what u wana know??



when will be the first test flight?


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## farhan_9909

mafiya said:


> when will be the first test flight?



i am following burraq development since 2009.

that time i heard that in 2009 first maiden flight is made.and entry into service by 2011.though now it is delayed to 2012

there is no solid picture to confirm Burraq development.


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## Nishan_101

I think the Saudi's have made great progress in this field and they may going to become one of those countries that makes UAVs on their own. I have seen a picture in which they have developed their own engines too. I think Saudi Arabia should try open R&D facilities for Radar, Optics/Electro-Optics, Engine(Aero, Rocket and Carnot Engine), Material, Chemical and other hydrodynamics and aerodynamics labs too.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Skorpion

mafiya said:


> when will be the first test flight?


 
The burraq UAV is fully functional but is not handed over yet because its about to be armed with AGM's. this work is in progress and no idea how long it'll take because i think they'll be using custom made AGM's (laser guided)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Nishan_101

Skorpion said:


> The burraq UAV is fully functional but is not handed over yet because its about to be armed with AGM's. this work is in progress and no idea how long it'll take because i think they'll be using custom made AGM's (laser guided)


 So any picture? Please post any CGI...


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## Bratva

Nishan_101 said:


> So any picture? Please post any CGI...



look the CH-3 chinese UAV and Falco UAV pics. Burraq most probably will look like it


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## HANI

Skorpion said:


> The burraq UAV is fully functional but is not handed over yet because its about to be armed with AGM's. this work is in progress and no idea how long it'll take because i think they'll be using custom made AGM's (laser guided)



Any source ? and last time i checked NESCOM was developing its laser designater and missiles


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## Luftwaffe

mafiya said:


> look the CH-3 chinese UAV and Falco UAV pics. Burraq most probably will look like it



That would be disappointing design (I was looking forward to mini predator-or Turkish TAI male uav like design) but functionally it is armed UAV that is one positive news.


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## Skorpion

i don't have any images but i think it is a close match to chinese CH-3!

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------




HANI said:


> and last time i checked NESCOM was developing its laser designater and missiles



how did u check it'll be armed with laser designater missiles? sorce?


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## HANI

Imran Khan said:


> i am waiting for this bad boy image more then i wait for my marriage damn but nothing come out



Imran bhi ager pore defence forum ko apke shadi ke card ain to hum sub age he se apke shadi or buraq k lie nawafil shuru kar dete hen what u say ?


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## HANI

He is like a brother to all of us to Abdullah ko dewana hona chahye


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## farhan_9909

i think it iwll look almost like the turkish falco with a little bigger size to allow it to carry atleast two or 1 hellfire type missile underbelley.

if something like predator is really achieved this will be a higher leap than cruise missile tech by pak


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## HANI

farhan_9909 said:


> i think it iwll look almost like the turkish falco with a little bigger size to allow it to carry atleast two or 1 hellfire type missile underbelley.
> 
> if something like predator is really achieved this will be a higher leap than cruise missile tech by pak



we have to wait for 2 or 3 months more to confirm these speculations about design and size sir i hope what ever its shape is it must be a lethal weapon for not only terrorists but also for all our enemies


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## KRAIT

HANI said:


> we have to wait for 2 or 3 months more to confirm these speculations about design and size sir i hope what ever its shape is it must be a lethal weapon for not only terrorists but also for all our enemies



I think the first flight of burraq will be in July,2012. I may be wrong but i definitely read it somewhere. Senior member can tell us more.


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## HANI

Skorpion said:


> i don't have any images but i think it is a close match to chinese CH-3!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> how did u check it'll be armed with laser designater missiles? sorce?



I read this some were on net i will provide u the source as soon as i got it again


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## fatman17

*PAKISTAN'S UQAB*

A Mock-Up of the Uqab UAV was displayed at the stand of Pakistan's Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS) - the parent of Xpert Engineering. According to GIDS, the country's Army and Navy have ordered five (5) of the 286Ib (130kg) systems and there is now serious interest from Bahrain, as well as asian and african countries. The UAV can be fitted with a gyro-stabilised 44Ib (20kg) pod which can house an off-the-shelf daylight camera and thermal imager. The Uqab can stay airborne for up to four (4) hours with a 65-100 mile (100-150km) range. Pakistan's Advanced Computing & Engineering Solutions (ACES) won the bid to fulfill the Army's requirement for the Uqab tactical UAV with its Eagle Eye PI/II.

AFM - Feb-2012

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## mughaljee

last night saw this news at Dawn tv news. Some one have any further detail.


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## Nishan_101

There isn't any picture of it yet... So what is the new development?


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## BATMAN

Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief

ISLAMABAD, Feb. 13 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Sulema said on Monday that the country is manufacturing its own spy aircraft and will soon be able to prepare *pilotless plane equipped with missile technology*, local media reported.

Talking to reporters at the Shehbaz Airbase in southern Sindh province, he said Pakistan is making unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV drones) at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in the town of Kamra near Islamabad, Geo TV reported.

Asked if the F-16 aircraft that Pakistan recently received from the U.S. can down American drones, Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force does not want any such situation.

The media people were taken to the Shehbaz Airbase to formally announce that the airbase is now under the complete control of the Pakistan Air Force.

The U.S., which used the airbase for drone attacks in Afghanistan and possibly in Pakistan, was told to vacate the base by Pakistan in the aftermath of the November 26 NATO strike on Pakistani posts, which had killed 24 soldiers.

The Air Chief said that 14 used F-16s were provided to Pakistan by the U.S. free of cost while 18 others have been bought.

The Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on the occasion that the parliament reserves the right to decide on the resumption of NATO supplies.

*He said that the final decision on whether NATO supplies will be allowed to pass through Pakistan for forces based in Afghanistan will be made by the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.*

The Army Chief said that Pakistan and the U.S. are cooperating on defence operations and Pakistani officials are taken into confidence whenever bordering areas are to be attacked.

Talking about the Coalition Support Fund, which was set up by the U.S. Congress after the September 11, 2001, attacks to reimburse allies for costs in supporting the U.S.-led war on militancy,* General Kayani said that Pakistan was yet to receive 1. 5 billion U.S. dollars from the U.S.*

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## Desert Fox

BATMAN said:


> Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Feb. 13 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Sulema said on Monday that the country is manufacturing its own spy aircraft and will soon be able to prepare *pilotless plane equipped with missile technology*, local media reported.
> 
> Talking to reporters at the Shehbaz Airbase in southern Sindh province, he said Pakistan is making unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV drones) at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in the town of Kamra near Islamabad, Geo TV reported.
> 
> Asked if the F-16 aircraft that Pakistan recently received from the U.S. can down American drones, Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force does not want any such situation.
> 
> The media people were taken to the Shehbaz Airbase to formally announce that the airbase is now under the complete control of the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> The U.S., which used the airbase for drone attacks in Afghanistan and possibly in Pakistan, was told to vacate the base by Pakistan in the aftermath of the November 26 NATO strike on Pakistani posts, which had killed 24 soldiers.
> 
> The Air Chief said that 14 used F-16s were provided to Pakistan by the U.S. free of cost while 18 others have been bought.
> 
> The Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on the occasion that the parliament reserves the right to decide on the resumption of NATO supplies.
> 
> *He said that the final decision on whether NATO supplies will be allowed to pass through Pakistan for forces based in Afghanistan will be made by the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.*
> 
> The Army Chief said that Pakistan and the U.S. are cooperating on defence operations and Pakistani officials are taken into confidence whenever bordering areas are to be attacked.
> 
> Talking about the Coalition Support Fund, which was set up by the U.S. Congress after the September 11, 2001, attacks to reimburse allies for costs in supporting the U.S.-led war on militancy,* General Kayani said that Pakistan was yet to receive 1. 5 billion U.S. dollars from the U.S.*



I'm guessing its probably the ToT of the Chinese CH-3 UCAV,


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## Desert Fox

fatman17 said:


> *PAKISTAN'S UQAB*
> 
> A Mock-Up of the Uqab UAV was displayed at the stand of Pakistan's Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS) - the parent of Xpert Engineering. According to GIDS, the country's Army and Navy have ordered five (5) of the 286Ib (130kg) systems and there is now serious interest from Bahrain, as well as asian and african countries. The UAV can be fitted with a gyro-stabilised 44Ib (20kg) pod which can house an off-the-shelf daylight camera and thermal imager. The Uqab can stay airborne for up to four (4) hours with a 65-100 mile (100-150km) range. Pakistan's Advanced Computing & Engineering Solutions (ACES) won the bid to fulfill the Army's requirement for the Uqab tactical UAV with its Eagle Eye PI/II.
> 
> AFM - Feb-2012



So it can only be equipped with cameras and with only 4 hour duration, that is certainly not the Uqab we've been hearing about for 4 years now, the supposed Pakistani predator drone.


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## BATMAN

Desert Fox said:


> I'm guessing its probably the ToT of the Chinese CH-3 UCAV,



Read the subject and than check the source.

---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 AM ----------




Desert Fox said:


> So it can only be equipped with cameras and with only 4 hour duration, that is certainly not the Uqab we've been hearing about for 4 years now, the supposed Pakistani predator drone.



And of course read the article... if not the bold part


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Desert Fox said:


> I'm guessing its probably the ToT of the Chinese CH-3 UCAV,



We already had placed an order for CH-3...And considering the time NESCOM is taking in delivering the bird... it clearly suggests its an indigenous platform... as we have the experience n infra to support it... also if it was a chinese ucav with tot... it would already have been in service.

---------- Post added at 07:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------




Desert Fox said:


> So it can only be equipped with cameras and with only 4 hour duration, that is certainly not the Uqab we've been hearing about for 4 years now, the supposed Pakistani predator drone.



Hes not talkin abt Burraq UCAV but Uqab UAV...We have like a billion kinds of UAVs...

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## Desert Fox

[/COLOR]


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We already had placed an order for CH-3...And considering the time NESCOM is taking in delivering the bird... it clearly suggests its an indigenous platform... as we have the experience n infra to support it... also if it was a chinese ucav with tot... it would already have been in service.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Hes not talkin abt Burraq UCAV but Uqab UAV...We have like a billion kinds of UAVs...



Oh, my bad, i confused Burraq for Uqab (both sound similar).


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief
(Xinhua)
08:59, February 14, 2012

ISLAMABAD, Feb. 13 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Sulema said on Monday that the country is manufacturing* its own spy aircraft and will soon be able to prepare pilotless plane equipped with missile technology, local media reported.*

*Talking to reporters at the Shehbaz Airbase in southern Sindh province, he said Pakistan is making unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV drones) at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in the town of Kamra near Islamabad, Geo TV reported.*

Asked if the F-16 aircraft that Pakistan recently received from the U.S. *can down American drones,* Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force does not want any such situation.

The media people were taken to the Shehbaz Airbase to formally announce that the airbase is *now under the complete control of the Pakistan Air Force.*

The U.S., which used the airbase for drone attacks in Afghanistan and possibly in Pakistan, was told to vacate the base by Pakistan in the aftermath of the November 26 NATO strike on Pakistani posts, which had killed 24 soldiers.

The Air Chief said that 14 used F-16s were provided to Pakistan by the U.S. free of cost while 18 others have been bought.

The Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on the occasion that the parliament reserves the right to decide on the resumption of NATO supplies.

He said that the final decision on whether NATO supplies will be allowed to pass through Pakistan for forces based in Afghanistan will be made by the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.

The Army Chief said that Pakistan and the U.S. are cooperating on defence operations and Pakistani officials are taken into confidence whenever bordering areas are to be attacked.

Talking about the Coalition Support Fund, which was set up by the U.S. Congress after the September 11, 2001, attacks to reimburse allies for costs in supporting the U.S.-led war on militancy, General Kayani said that Pakistan was yet to receive 1. 5 billion U.S. dollars from the U.S.

Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief - People's Daily Online


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## fatman17

*Sky Stalkers*

Chinese military commits to broad UAV development.


Richard D. Fisher, Jr. Alexandria, Va.

China was until the late 1990s content to follow Western unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) developments and keep pace by copying or purchasing foreign technology. But when the People&#8217;s Liberation Army (PLA) launched a modernization program in the late 1990s to prepare for possible conflict over Taiwan, development of unmanned systems were a high priority.

The result has been phenomenal growth in the UAV sector, which engages aircraft, helicopter, cruise missile and model aircraft companies, private concerns and university research centers.

At the third biennial Vanguard UAV exhibition in June 2010, 70 UAV-related companies displayed their wares, and at the November 2010 Zhuhai air show, 25 indigenous UAVs were shown. PLA ambitions for UAV development cover the gamut from micro to tactical to strategic, and could soon include stratospheric/near-space airships and hypersonic platforms.
Increasing utilization of UAVs is consistent with the PLA&#8217;s strategy/doctrine goal of &#8220;informatization&#8221;&#8212;the broad military exploitation of relevant information technologies. Chinese microelectronics companies have developed sophisticated &#8220;cockpit&#8221; control and monitoring stations and laptop programs for operating UAVs. Chinese optics companies supply systems for all sizes of UAVs. When completely lofted later this decade, China&#8217;s Compass navigation satellite network could enable global UAV operations. Industry sources make clear that UAVs and unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) will be integral parts of the sensor-to-shooter continuum from the soldier to space.

The PLA is increasing its use of tactical UAVs at a moderate pace. Introduced in the early 1990s, PLA army units use multiple versions of the Xian ASN-206, a truck-launched UAV with range of 150 km (93 mi.) and 6-8 hr. of endurance.

These are seen increasingly in exercises, for example, supporting long-range strikes by PHL03 300-mm multiple-launch rocket systems. Some versions use saucer-shaped satellite communication link antennas. Introduced in 2000, the Nanjing Research Institute on Simulation Technique&#8217;s comparable W-50, a nearly 100-kg (220-lb.) UAV with 4-6 hr. of endurance serves in some army units.

The hand-launched ASN-15, a 6.5-kg UAV, is also featured in small-unit army exercises. A version of the ASN-15 is carried by a variant of the Type-89 armored personnel carrier equipped with a command and-control center.

Some small UAVs in service come from the model industry. For example, the Poly arms-trading consortium markets W-1, a 1.75-kg, 1-hr-endurance electric-powered, hand-launched UAV with laptop control, based on a radio controlled Styrofoam model.
While the PLA has invested in a growing capacity to develop vertical-takeoff UAVs, the services have been slow to make wide use of them.

During the 1990s, BUAA developed small vertical takeoff UAVs with coaxial rotors for naval use, while Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics developed the Soar Bird series, with its 900-kg LE300 model being similar in size to the Northrop Grumman Fire Scout. A 320-kg LE300 version has been observed with an artillery unit.

The Chinese Helicopter Research and Development Institute, designer of the Z-10 attack helicopter, tested the 220-kg U-8E in 2006, a platform with 4 hr. of endurance, now marketed at air shows, though it is not clear if the PLA uses it. China&#8217;s radio-controlled-helicopter model makers have also produced slightly larger program-controlled vertical-takeoff UAVs for surveillance, following on the RMAX copied from Yamaha. Examples include the 120-kg, 1.5-hr.-endurance Servi-Helo. Several companies are making small quad-rotor vertical-takeoff UAVs popular with police.

In 2010 the Whirlwind Scout was revealed, a ducted-fan vertical-takeoff model with 20-40 min. of endurance, similar in size and shape to the Class-1 UAV of the U.S. Army&#8217;s cancelled Future Combat Systems program.

China is producing medium-altitude, long-endurance UAVs, some with specialized weapons as UCAVs, though introduction into PLA service is proceeding at a moderate pace. Likely a product of the Chengdu and Guizhou aviation companies, the Predator-1 sized Petrodactyl-1, with 20 hr. endurance, was shown for the first time at the November 2010 Zhuhai air show armed with the Norinco BA-7 optically guided missile, derived from the HJ-10 helicopter missile. In development since 2004 and able to transmit imagery to other combat platforms via a ground station, it is not known to be in PLA service.

First seen at the 2008 Zhuhai show, the slightly smaller CH-3, with 12 hr. endurance, uses a canard design copied from the U.S. Varieze homebuilt aircraft. It is armed with the FT-5 small satnav-guided bomb and AR-1 optically guided missile, similar in size to the BA-7. Wall displays at the 2008 Zhuhai show indicated that the CH-3 could support ground and maritime operations. While neither UCAV has been seen with a PLA unit, Pakistan selected the CH-3 for co-production and is testing a version of it.

Turbojet and turbofan UCAVs have also been developed by the PLA. For almost a decade sources in Taiwan pointed to the PLA air force&#8217;s growing UCAV modified J-6 fighters, which number almost 300. These supersonic-capable UCAVs could deliver precision-guided missiles, forcing Taiwan, for one, to expend surface-to-air missiles in defense.

At the 2002 Zhuhai air show, the Guizhou-Chengdu combine was likely responsible for the WZ-2000, a high-altitude, long-endurance (HALE) turbofan UAV resembling Northrop Grumman&#8217;s Global Hawk. In 2008, Luoyang Opto-Electronics Co. (LOEC) displayed a model of a high-altitude, medium-size UCAV similar to the WZ-2000, but armed with a version of its TY-90 helicopter air-to-air missile.

In 2010, Norinco displayed its BA-7 air-to-ground missile for the first time based on its HJ-10 helicopter ground-attack missile. The Norinco display added credence to the existence of a faster delta-wing turbofan UCAV program that first came to notice in a 2005 issue of a Chinese military magazine. The UCAV was depicted with a missile like the BA-7, raising the possibility that one or both UCAV programs pre-date 2005. They could represent competitive programs or an attempt to develop complementary high- and low-altitude surveillance and attack platforms.

At the 2008 Zhuhai show, Shenyang Aircraft Co. showed Warrior Eagle, a forward-swept-wing subsonic turbofan UCAV that would operate in cooperative groups. Chinese officials, however, would not answer questions about this program, and it did not reappear at the 2010 show.

The PLA is also pursuing strategic UAVs. So far, the main HALE surveillance UAV in service is the BKZ-05, first seen in video at the 2004 Zhuhai show. Powered by a reciprocating or turbine pusher engine, this twin-tail aircraft is similar in size to Israel Aerospace Industries&#8217; Heron, and the unit that operates them outside Beijing is reportedly subordinate to the national strategic command general staff department of the central military commission.

Chengdu Aircraft Corp.&#8217;s Tianyi UAV, similar in configuration but about two thirds the size of a Global Hawk, was seen tested in 2008. If adopted, this UAV might have sufficient range to cover Chinese-claimed territories in the East China and South China Seas. It could also be a test program for the Long Haul Eagle, a UAV that is more comparable in size and configuration to the Global Hawk.

At the 2006 Zhuhai show, Guizhou revealed its Soar Dragon HALE concept, a 7,500-kg, box-wing configuration witha 650-kg payload and 7,000-km range, but there has been no confirmation of this program.

Also in 2006, Shenyang Aircraft Corp. caused a stir with its Dark Sword UCAV concept, originally described as being for unmanned air-to-air combat, a description not repeated in subsequent displays. The inclusion of another model in a special Chinese Aviation Museum display to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the PLA air force in 2009 renewed concern that this could be an on-going program, if only to allow the air force&#8217;s emerging 5th-generation fighters to employ a complementary supersonic unmanned platform for offensive and defensive missions.

There is considerable interest in near space or stratospheric UAVs that the U.S. believes could serve missions ranging from surveillance, energy weapons deployment or heavy troop transport.

China Aerospace Corp. and university research centers are studying near space platform concepts. Much of this research pertains to very-high-altitude airships that might initially focus on surveillance and communication relay missions, especially over the Pacific Ocean.

The PLA is investing heavily in research and development of hypersonic UAV/UCAVs for near-space and low-Earth-orbit missions. In 2007, Chinese sources revealed the Chengdu Shenlong, a small space plane that is about the same size as the Boeing X-37B small space plane. There are reports it may have had a sub-orbital test in 2010 or earlier.

There are also unconfirmed reports that Chengdu tested a hypersonic technology vehicle similar to NASA&#8217;s X-43A.

Chinese military-directed academic engineering literature reflects broad interest in hypersonic research, focusing on engines, thermal protection materials, guidance and airframe-engine integration and design. One 2010 article by researchers at the prestigious Academy of Sciences Institute of Mechanics, proposed a Mach 3 platform that could be manned or unmanned. The U.S. Air Force envisions a similarly capable platform in service by 2030, but might the PLA&#8217;s fly first? 

Fisher is a senior fellow with the International Assessment and Strategy Center of Alexandria, Va.


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## Bratva

H KHAN stated, CH-3 was tested last year in FATA and endurance of CH-3 was less that it is stated.


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## HANI

mafiya said:


> H KHAN stated, CH-3 was tested last year in FATA and endurance of CH-3 was less that it is stated.



can u share the full story regarding use of CH-3 inn FATA bec its new for me ...... and if the endurance is less then did we ruled out to induct these in large num or what ?


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## Ottoman-Turk

we should cooperate with pakistan , we can improve anka uav together to make it armed and joint produce aswell and export together

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## Bratva

Ottoman-Turk said:


> we should cooperate with pakistan , we can improve anka uav together to make it armed and joint produce aswell and export together



We love to but our poor economic situation and lack of funds for R&D preventing this partnership.Remember there were plans several years ago to buy Turkish frigates, it was dropped too due to lack of funds.



HANI said:


> can u share the full story regarding use of CH-3 inn FATA bec its new for me ...... and if the endurance is less then did we ruled out to induct these in large num or what ?





> PA has been using CH-3 along with AR-1 for sometime in its operations in NW areas bording Afghanistan. I think the first CH-3 was tested in hot areas in early 2011 for surveillance and reconnaissance only. Earlier this year CH-3 was tested with AR-1 which were fulfilling their parameters.
> 
> The problem is that the loitering time is less than 5 hours when armed with AR-1 missiles and without the missiles it is less than 8 hours, which in return is more than anything else Pakistan has or can buy from any other source expect China or is able to locally manufacturer.
> 
> The speed of '600' be it kmph or mph is way too fast for any UAV.



UAV's Development !!

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## Nishan_101

Ottoman-Turk said:


> we should cooperate with pakistan , we can improve anka uav together to make it armed and joint produce aswell and export together


 
Why not make space under the fuselarge near the front landing gear for IRST pod and not to use the conventional one on a hard point.


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## skydrill_2

Ottoman-Turk said:


> we should cooperate with pakistan , we can improve anka uav together to make it armed and joint produce aswell and export together



anyways i respect turkish techs, but pak lacks brain-power ryt now...u will play a major loss....


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## Ottoman-Turk

no bro pakistan make great cruise and ballistic missile , they can help us in that field , iam seeing we are getting very good i found this in Wiki to check out male uav's

With their advanced Western Standard electro-optical payloads, American, Israeli and Turkish developed MALE UAVs are considered the most advanced in the world. These countries hold a large market share of the MALE UAV market.

before our prime minister said after we make anka we will be top 3 and one of the 3 nations to make UAV i was saying hes talking BS because many countries make uav but i didnt know he was talking about MALE UAV where only 3 countries are proven .

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## v9s

skydrill_2 said:


> anyways i respect turkish techs, but pak lacks brain-power ryt now...u will play a major loss....



we're helping them build a cruise missile and you're saying Pak lacks brain power?

f*cking chutia

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## HANI

v9s said:


> we're helping them build a cruise missile and you're saying Pak lacks brain power?
> 
> f*cking chutia



don,t use abusive language brother


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## hatf IX

skydrill_2 said:


> anyways i respect turkish techs, but pak lacks brain-power ryt now...u will play a major loss....



man we don't lack brain power that's real rude comment ("believe me no nation in this world lack brain power") it's just matter of resources and good government which we lack considerably . . .. . . if we came up with "Atomic Bomb" and " Range of Missiles" believe me we can build that thing too but current government of our is just bunch of @$$ h**e$


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## ababeel22

also i read somewhere that pakistanis are the 4th most intelligent people in the world


hatf IX said:


> man we don't lack brain power that's real rude comment ("believe me no nation in this world lack brain power") it's just matter of resources and good government which we lack considerably . . .. . . if we came up with "Atomic Bomb" and " Range of Missiles" believe me we can build that thing too but current government of our is just bunch of @$$ h**e$

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## Desert Fox

hatf IX said:


> man we don't lack brain power that's real rude comment ("believe me no nation in this world lack brain power") it's just matter of resources and good government which we lack considerably . . .. . . if we came up with "Atomic Bomb" and " Range of Missiles" believe me we can build that thing too but current government of our is just bunch of @$$ h**e$



Don't blame the government, blame yourselves, because after all the government is from the people. Is Zardari not a Pakistani? Or is he a indian?

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## Xracer

Desert Fox said:


> Don't blame the government, blame yourselves, because after all the government is from the people. Is Zardari not a Pakistani? Or is he a indian?


well bro your Right.You always get People Like Govt


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## Younis

when will burraq UCAV strat opertions


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## fatman17

Younis said:


> when will burraq UCAV strat opertions



what makes you think it has not?


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## farhan_9909

may be burraq is just a myth

we dnt knw how much fund is allocated for this
was the fund really allocated?

where will we source the engine from?if it really is a ucav than it might be big

i guess the project is no more

and we might end up into a chineeese ucav such as ch3

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## The Deterrent

We might see the Burraq system late this year, when it is supposed to be exhibited at the IDEAS, Nov 2012. Hoping it is up to our expectations.


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## A.Rafay

Younis said:


> when will burraq UCAV strat opertions


Latest news shows that it can carry a payload of 200 KG and it will start its operations in 2012.


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## HANI

farhan_9909 said:


> may be burraq is just a myth
> 
> we dnt knw how much fund is allocated for this
> was the fund really allocated?
> 
> where will we source the engine from?if it really is a ucav than it might be big
> 
> 
> i guess the project is no more
> 
> and we might end up into a chineeese ucav such as ch3



Buraq is not a myth my friend in nescom has seen its models and he confirms me that they are working on buraq

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## fatman17

A.Rafay said:


> *Latest news* shows that it can carry a payload of 200 KG and it will start its operations in 2012.



any link to this news - 2012 is half over!


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## razgriz19

A.Rafay said:


> Latest news shows that it can carry a payload of 200 KG and it will start its operations in 2012.



so that means its just an another surveillance UAV, no a UCAV.
with a payload of 200 kg, they can only carry sensors.


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## SEAL

razgriz19 said:


> so that means its just an another surveillance UAV, no a UCAV.
> with a payload of 200 kg, they can only carry sensors.



Nope average weight of Atgm like Hellfire is between 45-50Kg and it can easily carry two Atgm's with other sensor payload.


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## fatman17

*Celebrating Paksat-1R: Pakistani drones - a dream or reality?*

Local UAV manufa*cturer*s say there is a long way to go. 

By Salman Siddiqui
Published: August 6, 2012


KARACHI: 
For the longest time, Pakistan has had the ambition of owning and operating armed unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) like the CIA&#8217;s Predator and Reaper.

Previously, the refrain in the local drone manufacturing industry and armed forces was that Pakistan didn&#8217;t have a satellite of its own. Thus, it was next to impossible to even think about acquiring or building such complex aircraft.

However, with the first anniversary of Pakistan&#8217;s first ever fully functional communication satellite, the Paksat-1R, on August 12 &#8211; is the ambition still a pipe dream?

Military applications

Although Paksat-1R is a commercial satellite used widely by media houses and telecom companies, can it &#8211; if the need arises &#8211; be used for military purposes?

&#8220;The focus of communication satellites such as Paksat-1R is to contribute towards the socio-economic development of the country,&#8221; Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (Suparco) Chairman Ahmed Bilal told The Express Tribune.

However, he doesn&#8217;t dismiss the possibility completely. &#8220;You can use a knife to cut vegetables, but it can also be used to &#8230; (points towards his throat).&#8221;

The Suparco chairman chose his words carefully when asked whether Paksat-1R could support any future local drone endeavours of Pakistan. &#8220;Satellites don&#8217;t give us anything in real time. But the technology can complement a number of [other complex] systems.&#8221;

Bilal also clarified that contrary to popular belief, Pakistan Army was not the biggest client of the Paksat-1R, adding that the telecom sector and media houses were its major customers.

Need for satellite links? 

Modern drones are designed to fly autonomously, which means they can be preprogrammed to fly a route until fuel and batteries run out.

Locally manufactured unmanned aircraft in Pakistan face limitations beyond a 200-kilometre radius from their point of control. Ground stations stop receiving any video or data from the drones which also affects the ability to control and manipulate cameras, sensors and armaments on board the aircraft.

This is where the satellite link comes in: it relays data back to the operator and can be used to send commands to the drone.

Limitations

Aerospace design engineer from MIT and Integrated Dynamics CEO Raja Sabri Khan stresses the link is not the only factor in developing Predator-level drones. &#8220;The satellite provides a long range monitoring and control link between the operator and the drone; it does not replace the essential systems required to operate and manufacture the drone.&#8221;

Managing director of another local UAV manufacturer East West Infiniti, Dr Haroon Javed Qureshi says the Paksat-1R is a geostationary satellite with an approximate distance of 38,000 kilometres from central Pakistan. US military satellites, on the other hand, are not geostationary. Instead, they are Middle Earth Orbiting (MEO) or Low Earth Orbiting (LEO) satellites.

Pakistan already has a wide range of locally manufactured unmanned aircraft such as the Pakistan Navy&#8217;s recently inducted Uqaab series. But none of them are armed or designed for long endurances.

Raja Sabri Khan says their range is limited to only a few hours as compared to the US Predator&#8217;s 48 hours over station capability. The satellite has nothing to do with this lack of capability.

State vs private-run industry

Dr Qureshi says complex systems such as the Predators evolved over 15-16 years.

Pakistan flew its first UAV in 1992: around the same time the US was developing the Predator.

&#8220;The key difference is that all US/Israeli UAV programmes are private businesses; the government just pays them development costs, but here all the projects are state-owned and we just pay salaries,&#8221; adds a skeptical Qureshi.

&#8220;The bottom line is we are not using the right methodology and lack the vision or drive. The moment military and government establishments leave this to the [private companies in the local drone manufacturing] industry, we may actually have a system that can be called the Pakistani Predator.&#8221;

Published in The Express Tribune, August 6th, 2012.


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## srilankan

I guess this is all coming form usa


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## Bratva

Pakistan is very close to acquire drone Technology. Minister of Defence Naveed Qamar statement in today's newspapers


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## Reddawn

mafiya said:


> Pakistan is very close to acquire drone Technology. Minister of Defence Naveed Qamar statement in today's newspapers



What drone technology? Another mindless statement from our esteemed Defence Minister. Someone may want to remind him that the private sector is already producing UAVs!


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## [--Leo--]

mafiya said:


> Pakistan is very close to acquire drone Technology. Minister of Defence Naveed Qamar statement in today's newspapers


but they already have this they just want to equipped with missiles


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## A.Rafay

This video is from 2009, the Achor at the End says Quoting _*""Military Analysts Say that it will take about two years to build a Pakistani Equavalent to the US Predator Drone""*_






We Already Have it by Now!!


----------



## Safriz

^^^ Pakistan does not have a secure satellite communication suitable for UAV.
Or did i miss something?


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## A.Rafay

Safriz said:


> ^^^ Pakistan does not have a secure satellite communication suitable for UAV.
> Or did i miss something?



Theres a Navigational satellite Going to be operational in June 2013, You have any solid proof that it will only be used for navigation! Our Miliatary is the most Secret ORG!

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## Safriz

A.Rafay said:


> Theres a Navigational satellite Going to be operational in June 2013, You have any solid proof that it will only be used for navigation! Our Miliatary is the most Secret ORG!



The signals can be analyzed when the satellite is up there..
All you need is a good quality SSB trsnsceiver,an oscilloscope,a dish antenna,may be a good telescope and a lot of time and brains.

With telescope you can see and photograph the satellite,and look for evidence of any other use apart from Beidou Augmentation.
Then you can use SSB and antenna to analyze on what frequencies the satellite is transmitting.Beidou frequencies are known.If satellite is transmitting on other fequencies then there are other uses of the satellite..

There are amature satellite tracking clubs all over,but i dont know if there are any in Pakistan or we had known in advance when the american drones are coming our way.

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## Safriz

something like this.

www.hobbyspace.com/SatWatching/


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## Gentelman

Former PAF Chief ACM (r) Rao Qamar
Suleman is in comma due to brain
hemorrhage. He is currently admitted in
CMH Lahore. May Allah give him quick
recovery and may he get well soon!
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...81738254159:mf_story_key.-7731449045352057076



Safriz said:


> ^^^ Pakistan does not have a secure satellite communication suitable for UAV.
> Or did i miss something?



a agree....
even USA's UAV's r captured by Iran then how can Pakistan rely on their satellite communication system....
we r a way far from US in space program...


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## That Guy

So, about that rumored drone strikes in Feb this year, did any more detail come out of it? Was there any sort of confirmation that Pakistan indeed was the one to carry out the strikes?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The newest UAV:


Shahpur UAV:

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## That Guy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The newest UAV:
> 
> 
> Shahpur UAV:



Is it just me, or does it look like a CH-3... Can it carry weapons? What about the Burraq, any news? How about the Feb strikes that the CIA claims that Pakistan's army carried out?


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## Major Sam

That Guy said:


> Is it just me, or does it look like a CH-3... Can it carry weapons? What about the Burraq, any news? How about the Feb strikes that the CIA claims that Pakistan's army carried out?



Its armed one


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## haviZsultan

Pakistan should invest in mechanizing her infantry, modernizing its military and develop indigenous capability for her defence needs. UAV's are modern machines that are very useful in warfare. Pakistan must invest on these machines and ensure they start flying out of our bases. Drones are the new phenomenon of modern warfare. Pakistan should invest on them.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

haviZsultan said:


> Pakistan should invest in mechanizing her infantry, modernizing its military and develop indigenous capability for her defence needs. UAV's are modern machines that are very useful in warfare. Pakistan must invest on these machines and ensure they start flying out of our bases. Drones are the new phenomenon of modern warfare. Pakistan should invest on them.



We already have MIBs..


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## That Guy

usama waqas said:


> Its armed one



Really? Any pics that show it armed?


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## HAIDER

Under left wing if you notice it has weapon bay.


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## Major Sam

That Guy said:


> Really? Any pics that show it armed?



Obviously they will not reveal it untill final validation and approval.


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## Nishan_101

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The newest UAV:
> 
> 
> Shahpur UAV:



I think PAF(may be), PAA and PN should get these ones ASAP and in good numbers especially PN should buy about 15 of these and may be some other big ones like 11 Falco's too... So that they can keep 24/7 eye on the coastal belt for intruders without the need of expensive operations of MPAs...



Ottoman-Turk said:


> we should cooperate with pakistan , we can improve anka uav together to make it armed and joint produce aswell and export together



Really if PAC along with NESCOM and KRL had joined in properly to develop this UAV technology along with infrastructure like Satellites than this like UAVs can play a vital role, like for PN they can buy about 21-30 of these machines instead of 10 MPAs along with 7 small ones.


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## That Guy

usama waqas said:


> Obviously they will not reveal it untill final validation and approval.



Too bad, I would have really loved to have seen it with weapons installed.

So I checked Google, and it still supposedly under testing. Any idea when it's expected to come into full production



Nishan_101 said:


> I think PAF(may be), PAA and PN should get these ones ASAP and in good numbers especially PN should buy about 15 of these and may be some other big ones like 11 Falco's too... So that they can keep 24/7 eye on the coastal belt for intruders without the need of expensive operations of MPAs...
> 
> 
> 
> Really if PAC along with NESCOM and KRL had joined in properly to develop this UAV technology along with infrastructure like Satellites than this like UAVs can play a vital role, like for PN they can buy about 21-30 of these machines instead of 10 MPAs along with 7 small ones.



As long as we don't give it to the ISI, we all know what happens when intel agencies get their hands on armed drones (I'm looking at you, CIA and Mossad).


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## Nishan_101

That Guy said:


> Too bad, I would have really loved to have seen it with weapons installed.
> 
> So I checked Google, and it still supposedly under testing. Any idea when it's expected to come into full production
> 
> 
> 
> As long as we don't give it to the ISI, we all know what happens when intel agencies get their hands on armed drones (I'm looking at you, CIA and Mossad).



CIA means US Military. Although ISI is a part of Pak Military but much better than CIA.

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## That Guy

Nishan_101 said:


> CIA means US Military. Although ISI is a part of Pak Military but much better than CIA.



No, the US military usually has no say in the drone strikes in Pakistan, or even the drone programs conducted even in Afghanistan. While the US military does operate armed drones, they're nowhere nearly as used as much as they are by the CIA.

The ISI is just as bad as the CIA, never trust any intel agency to tell you the truth, or at least the complete truth.

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## That Guy

So this is interesting, I got curious and checked wikipedia on Burraq UAV, and it says that the Burraq is currently in service...


Burraq (Urdu: &#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602; &#8206 is an advanced unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) developed by a venture of PAF and the NESCOM, a civilian defence research and development organisation.[2] The name Burraq (Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1615;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602;&#8206; al-Bur&#257;q "lightning") refers to a type of winged steed, described as a creature from the heavens which transported the Islamic Prophet Muhammad.

In May 2009 the Burraq UCAV was reported to be undergoing flight testing and would be armed with a new laser-guided ASM missiles and laser designator, also designed by NESCOM.[2]

As of 2012 the Burraq is believed to be in service.[3] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NESCOM_Burraq


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## [--Leo--]

we get nothing after 2009 so wait for it


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## Nishan_101

That Guy said:


> No, the US military usually has no say in the drone strikes in Pakistan, or even the drone programs conducted even in Afghanistan. While the US military does operate armed drones, they're nowhere nearly as used as much as they are by the CIA.
> 
> The ISI is just as bad as the CIA, never trust any intel agency to tell you the truth, or at least the complete truth.



Buddy, can you explain why? ISI has some problem???



That Guy said:


> So this is interesting, I got curious and checked wikipedia on Burraq UAV, and it says that the Burraq is currently in service...
> 
> 
> Burraq (Urdu: &#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602; &#8206 is an advanced unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) developed by a venture of PAF and the NESCOM, a civilian defence research and development organisation.[2] The name Burraq (Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1615;&#1585;&#1575;&#1602;&#8206; al-Bur&#257;q "lightning") refers to a type of winged steed, described as a creature from the heavens which transported the Islamic Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> In May 2009 the Burraq UCAV was reported to be undergoing flight testing and would be armed with a new laser-guided ASM missiles and laser designator, also designed by NESCOM.[2]
> 
> As of 2012 the Burraq is believed to be in service.[3]
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NESCOM_Burraq



I think its in service since 2009 with PAF, PN as well as PA.


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## That Guy

Nishan_101 said:


> Buddy, can you explain why? ISI has some problem???



I just don't trust any intel agency to use them morally. We've all seen what happens when you let intel agencies get a hold of armed drones, they use them for assassination missions.



> I think its in service since 2009 with PAF, PN as well as PA.



Not really, it was in development in 2009, but I've searched all over the interwebz, and I can't seem to find a single reference to the Burraq being in service. The closest incident that may indicate that the Burraq was used is the two Feb 2013 air strikes that the CIA says were carried out by the PAF, with at least one of them being a drone strike.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/05/w...trikes-over-pakistan.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The problem is that Pakistan says it did not carry out any attack at all and many people are questioning Pakistan's capability to even have an armed drone. There is also the added problem that the vehicles that carried out the strikes were never named at all.


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## fatman17

*Sharp Sword*

The 001 prototype of Sharp Sword UCAV is shown here taxiing at the Hongdu airfield. It was reported that 601 and Hongdu have been working on a long-range stealth UCAV similar to American X-47B and French Neuron. A scale model was publicized in September 2011 revealing an X-47B style tailless flying wing and a dorsal air intake configuration, in an effort to minimize RCS and reduce IR emission. The UCAV also features a SATCOM datalink antenna located aft the dorsal air intake. Its length is around 10m and wingspan is around 14m. As a UCAV, Sharp Sword is expected to carry at least two GPS/Beidou guided bombs inside an internal bomb bay. The first prototype was built by the end of 2012. First high speed taxiing took place on January 26, 2013, powered likely by an RD-93 turbofan engine without A/B. First flight is expected in spring 2013. However currently the engine nozzle appears to be unshielded, which leaves some room for future improvement.

- Last updated 5/14/13 

should interest PAF.

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## Manticore

From the photo, a military analyst in China said the drone's engine is apparently the RD-93 imported from Russia. This is the same engine used by JF-17 Xiaolong or Thunder multi-role fighter developed by China in partnership with Pakistan. The drone is larger than the French nEUROn, but smaller than the X-47B developed by the US.

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## Munir

I doubt it is the RD33/93. If it is then they will not add the afterburner section... If uou look at the nozzles then a normal engine would take the room till the painted cockpit area...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, which has for much of the past decade has sought to acquire unmanned aerial vehicles (UCAV), a platform used by the US in Pakistan despite numerous protests by the government, has started export of drone parts.
On Monday, officials at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra handed over the first batch of parts created for the Turkish UAV (ANKA) to the Turkish Aerospace Industry (TAI) in a ceremony held during the International Defence Exhibition and Fair (IDEF) at Istanbul, Turkey.
After the signing ceremony, President and CEO of TAI Muharrem Dortkasli expressed his satisfaction on the skill and knowledge possessed by PAC, Kamra for undertaking such assignments.
Dortkasli expressed that many more collaborations would be undertaken in the future as well.
Pakistan has been seeking access to drones and has experimented in indigenously constructing drones.


http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...r2WDuPo3lQnSX_WMb8A3QSQ&bvm=bv.46471029,d.aWM

*What exactly did we produce? plus does this mean we will see ANKA in service?*

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## That Guy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, which has for much of the past decade has sought to acquire unmanned aerial vehicles (UCAV), a platform used by the US in Pakistan despite numerous protests by the government, has started export of drone parts.
> On Monday, officials at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra handed over the first batch of parts created for the Turkish UAV (ANKA) to the Turkish Aerospace Industry (TAI) in a ceremony held during the International Defence Exhibition and Fair (IDEF) at Istanbul, Turkey.
> After the signing ceremony, President and CEO of TAI Muharrem Dortkasli expressed his satisfaction on the skill and knowledge possessed by PAC, Kamra for undertaking such assignments.
> Dortkasli expressed that many more collaborations would be undertaken in the future as well.
> Pakistan has been seeking access to drones and has experimented in indigenously constructing drones.
> 
> 
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...r2WDuPo3lQnSX_WMb8A3QSQ&bvm=bv.46471029,d.aWM
> 
> *What exactly did we produce? plus does this mean we will see ANKA in service?*



That's good news for Pakistan, more business means more money and better economy. Plus, this could give Pakistan invaluable experience to build better drones. Is there news about the armed version of the Anka?


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## Nishan_101

ANTIBODY said:


> From the photo, a military analyst in China said the drone's engine is apparently the RD-93 imported from Russia. This is the same engine used by JF-17 Xiaolong or Thunder multi-role fighter developed by China in partnership with Pakistan. The drone is larger than the French nEUROn, but smaller than the X-47B developed by the US.



I can't say for sure but may be PAC is doing JV on some UCAVs with China.... other than a 5th Generation.....


----------



## Nishan_101

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, which has for much of the past decade has sought to acquire unmanned aerial vehicles (UCAV), a platform used by the US in Pakistan despite numerous protests by the government, has started export of drone parts.
> On Monday, officials at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra handed over the first batch of parts created for the Turkish UAV (ANKA) to the Turkish Aerospace Industry (TAI) in a ceremony held during the International Defence Exhibition and Fair (IDEF) at Istanbul, Turkey.
> After the signing ceremony, President and CEO of TAI Muharrem Dortkasli expressed his satisfaction on the skill and knowledge possessed by PAC, Kamra for undertaking such assignments.
> Dortkasli expressed that many more collaborations would be undertaken in the future as well.
> Pakistan has been seeking access to drones and has experimented in indigenously constructing drones.
> 
> 
> http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...r2WDuPo3lQnSX_WMb8A3QSQ&bvm=bv.46471029,d.aWM
> 
> *What exactly did we produce? plus does this mean we will see ANKA in service?*



So it means PAC is a bit ahead with TAI. I think that as PAC is looking to expand it is opening a newer and INSHA ALLAH more technological advance facility in SINDH they should be handed over the PEC(Precision Engineering Complex, Karachi) which is still working under PIA and I think if its being handed over to PAC then they will going to expand its facility and will make 100% use of it develop ultra advance equipment. INSHA ALLAH

I think any one of you can spread this voice to those who can do something. INSHA ALLAH.


----------



## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> *Sharp Sword*
> 
> The 001 prototype of Sharp Sword UCAV is shown here taxiing at the Hongdu airfield. It was reported that 601 and Hongdu have been working on a long-range stealth UCAV similar to American X-47B and French Neuron. A scale model was publicized in September 2011 revealing an X-47B style tailless flying wing and a dorsal air intake configuration, in an effort to minimize RCS and reduce IR emission. The UCAV also features a SATCOM datalink antenna located aft the dorsal air intake. Its length is around 10m and wingspan is around 14m. As a UCAV, Sharp Sword is expected to carry at least two GPS/Beidou guided bombs inside an internal bomb bay. The first prototype was built by the end of 2012. First high speed taxiing took place on January 26, 2013, powered likely by an RD-93 turbofan engine without A/B. First flight is expected in spring 2013. However currently the engine nozzle appears to be unshielded, which leaves some room for future improvement.
> 
> - Last updated 5/14/13
> 
> should interest PAF.



The tech may interest the PAF, but I doubt that China would allow Pakistan to see what's inside that thing, let alone give one to Pakistan. Pakistan and China may have a close relationship, but China will never allow another nation to look at it's military secrets.


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## Munir

That Guy said:


> The tech may interest the PAF, but I doubt that China would allow Pakistan to see what's inside that thing, let alone give one to Pakistan. Pakistan and China may have a close relationship, but China will never allow another nation to look at it's military secrets.




I asume that this is all personal opinion? There are several cases where Pak provided China latest tech... But then again. Why should I provide details...

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## That Guy

Munir said:


> I asume that this is all personal opinion? There are several cases where Pak provided China latest tech... But then again. Why should I provide details...



Of course, as this is my personal opinion, I could completely be wrong.

I way I see it, the only way for Pakistan to get it's hands on this tech is if China makes something better.


----------



## fatman17

That Guy said:


> The tech may interest the PAF, but I doubt that China would allow Pakistan to see what's inside that thing, let alone give one to Pakistan. Pakistan and China may have a close relationship, but China will never allow another nation to look at it's military secrets.



oh okay..!

*"There are some indications China may already be exporting know-how to Pakistan, given design similarities between Chinese drones and Pakistan's Shahpar UAV,"* said Huw Williams, an expert on drones at Jane's Defence Weekly

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## Munir

Some similarities? Only little differences...

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## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> oh okay..!
> 
> *"There are some indications China may already be exporting know-how to Pakistan, given design similarities between Chinese drones and Pakistan's Shahpar UAV,"* said Huw Williams, an expert on drones at Jane's Defence Weekly



Yes, but the Shahpur is based on older Chinese drones, more specifically, it's based on the CH-3. Do you honestly think that China would hand over it's military secrets to Pakistan, such as the Lijian? I don't think so.

China is a strong ally, but they've not stupid. They know that the Pakistani government can't be trusted to keep it's secrets, only the Pakistani military can, and now with the shift in power between the civilian gov and military, they're going to start worrying about the military too.


----------



## krash

That Guy said:


> Yes, but the Shahpur is based on older Chinese drones, more specifically, it's based on the CH-3. Do you honestly think that China would hand over it's military secrets to Pakistan, such as the Lijian? I don't think so.
> 
> China is a strong ally, but they've not stupid. They know that the Pakistani government can't be trusted to keep it's secrets, only the Pakistani military can, and now with the shift in power between the civilian gov and military, they're going to start worrying about the military too.



Yar, we don't know what will or will not happen but if one is to go by history then the Chinese have always offered Pakistan the best they have had. Take the J-10 for example. We were shown that aircraft inside out, then offered and allowed to tinker with at a time when the world didn't know it existed, at least not officially (the Chinese were pretty anal about that bird). Then there's the nuke and missile tech, the subs, the frigates, etc, etc. For better or for worse, the Pak-China relationship has gone beyond politics and diplomacy for quite some time now.

ps: The Pakistani government has always kept their secrets. The one thing Pakistan hasn't compromised for the US is China, that too after quite a bit of American coaxing. Minus this Zardari stint, we've had more than friendly relations with the Chinese.


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## That Guy

krash said:


> Yar, we don't know what will or will not happen but if one is to go by history then the Chinese have always offered Pakistan the best they have had. Take the J-10 for example. We were shown that aircraft inside out, then offered and allowed to tinker with at a time when the world didn't know it existed, at least not officially (the Chinese were pretty anal about that bird). Then there's the nuke and missile tech, the subs, the frigates, etc, etc. For better or for worse, the Pak-China relationship has gone beyond politics and diplomacy for quite some time now.
> 
> ps: The Pakistani government has always kept their secrets. The one thing Pakistan hasn't compromised for the US is China, that too after quite a bit of American coaxing. Minus this Zardari stint, we've had more than friendly relations with the Chinese.



I think there is a misunderstanding from both the Chinese side and Pakistani side about the relationship between the two nations. When China talks about strong relationship with Pakistan and the unbreakable bond between the two nations, they really only mean Pakistan's military. The Chinese know who they have to talk to and who is going to keep guard over China's interests in Pakistan, and it certainly isn't going to be any civilian government.

This might change though, as the civilian gov in Pakistan finally starting to exert it's control over the military (slowly, but it's happening.).


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## nomi007

falco uav in paris






Falco EVO (Evolution) from Selex ES is aimed at expanding the spectrum of tactical missions the Falco unmanned air system can carry out.

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## That Guy

nomi007 said:


> falco uav in paris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falco EVO (Evolution) from Selex ES is aimed at expanding the spectrum of tactical missions the Falco unmanned air system can carry out.



The drone is not technically Pakistani, even though it was influenced heavily by Pakistani needs. The drone is Italian, and the EVO has little to do with Pakistan, as it was probably funded and researched by the company itself, instead of having military input like the original. Selex ES probably got enough sale-orders of the drone to justify a larger and more enhanced version.

Falco seems to be quite popular among militaries around the world, no doubt because of the heavy input the PA gave Selex on what is needed in a military surveillance drone to be useful.

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## nomi007

An-209 tactical UAV




many countries are interested in it
why pakistan is not?


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## That Guy

nomi007 said:


> An-209 tactical UAV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> many countries are interested in it
> why pakistan is not?



Multiple reasons, one is that Pakistan already has multiple tactical UAVs that it produces indigenously and with any luck, it'll be able to get the Falco-EVO in a MALE role too.

What Pakistan is interested in are armed drones.

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## Najam Khan

nomi007 said:


> An-209 tactical UAV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> many countries are interested in it
> why pakistan is not?



Pak military is still doing experiments with some local systems and Chinese UAVs. Unlike other militaries we still haven't started looking out for any serious procurement; the reason could be(just a thought!) that Pakistani military has yet not refined their needs and war doctrines with role of UAV/UCAV in CAS/CoIN ops.
Having said that, it does not mean doctrines/ASRs will remain with limited UAV capability. This need for UAV/UCAV is growing globally and same shall be done in Pakistan. The process of refinement in doctrines is still going on, requirements are placed on bigger canvas and when either Chinese or local UAV/UCAV system matures to meet those required specifications it shall be procured.

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## Safriz



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## fatman17

Integrated Dynamics of Karachi produces short range, low endurance minature UAV's namely the *Border Eagle*, which is in use by the US along its frontier with Mexico. its military development, *Border Hawk* may be operational with the Pakistan Army


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## fatman17

*Country Pakistan*
Prime Contractor&#8230;......Designation&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;....Status&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...Launch/Propulsion

Integrated Dynamics&#8230;.Border Eagle Mk II&#8230;.In production&#8230;..Piston P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Desert Hawk&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Under way&#8230;&#8230;. ..Hand-launched
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Explorer&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Under way&#8230;&#8230;. ....G-L, T-L P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Hawk Mk5&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Deployed&#8230;&#8230;.. ...GAS prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Hornet Mk4&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; ..Piston prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Nishan Mk II&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Under way&#8230;&#8230;.. GAS P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Nishan TJ 1000&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Under way&#8230;&#8230;.. Mini-turbo
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Pride&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;. ......H-L -Electric prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Rover Mk-1&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;.. ..H-L - Electric P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Shadow Mk-I&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Under way&#8230;&#8230;. .P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.SKYCAM&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Under way&#8230;&#8230;.. .....H-L - Electric P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Spirit&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Under way&#8230;&#8230;.. .....H-L -Electric prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Tornado 2000&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Under way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; ..Mini-turbojet - C-L
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Vector&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;. .....Twin-boom P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Vision Mk1/Mk2&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Under way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; ..P-P
NESCOM&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; .....Burraq&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Unknown
SATUMA&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; .....Flamingo&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Completed&#8230;&#8230;.. G-L - GAS prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..FST........................Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. G-L - GAS P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..HST&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; ....Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. G-L - GAS P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Jasoos II/Bravo+&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. GAS P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Mukhbar&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. ...Completed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. G-L - GAS P-P
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Shooting Star&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; RATO - Turbojet
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Stingray&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. B-L -Electric prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Sky-C&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. H-L -Electric prop
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Thunder SR&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; C-L - GAS
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Thunder LR&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Deployed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. C-L - GAS
Technocrafts&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Ababeel&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Jumbo Baaz&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Under way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Gas/oil rotary


KEY TO ABBREVIATIONS & ACRONYMS

ACTD Advanced Concept & Technology Demonstrator
Ag Agriculture/Crop Monitoring
A-L Air Launched
AMW Anti-Mine Warfare
AP Aerial Photography
ASW Anti-Submarine Warfare
ATA Air-Air (missile/gun attack)
ATOL Automatic Takeoff/Landing
ATG Air-Ground (missile/gun attack)
BAMS Broad-Area Maritime Surveillance
BCTM-2 Brigade Combat Team Modernization (BCTM) Increment 2
BDA Battle Damage Assessment
B-L Bungee-Launched
BLOS Beyond Line-of-Sight
BP Border Patrol
BWB Blended Wing Body
Can Canister
CAS Civil Air Surveillance
CAV Compact Air Vehicle
Chem Chemical Detection
CICADA Close-In Covert Autonomous Disposable Aircraft
CIRPAS Center for Interdisciplinary Remotely Piloted Aircraft Studies
C-L Catapult-Launched
COIN Counter-Insurgency
COMM Communications
EFI Electronic Fuel Injection
ELINT Electronic Intelligence
Env Environmental Monitoring
E/O Electro/Optical
EOD Explosive Ordnance Disposal
EW Electronic Warfare
FCS Future Combat System
FW Fixed Wing
GAS Gasoline Engine
G-L Ground Launched
gMAV Gasoline Micro Air Vehicle
H&S Hover and Stare
HALE High Altitude/Long Endurance
HF Heavry Fuel
H-L Hand-Launched
HS Homeland Security
ImiNT Images Intelligence
Infra Infrastructure Monitoring
IR Infrared
ISR Intelligence/Survellance/Reconnaissance
ISTAR Intelligence/Surveillance/Target	Acquisition/Reconnaissance
ISTAR-A Intelligence/Surveillance/Target Acquisition/Reconnaissance-Attack
JCTD Joint Capability Technology Demonstration
LALE Low Altitude/Long Endurance
LAS Lightweight Aerostat System
LCS Littoral Combat Ship
LH2 Liquid Hydrogen
LOS Line of Sight
LR Long Range
LRIP Low-Rate Initial Production
LTA Lighter Than Air
MAGIC Medium Altitude Global ISR and Communications
MALE Medium Altitude/Long Endurance
MALE-EP Medium Altitude/Long Endurance/Extreme Persistence
Map Aerial Mapping
MAV Micro Air Vehicle
MDA Maritime Domain Awareness
MM/MR Multimission/Multirole
MOGAS Motor Gasoline
MR Medium Range
M/UAV Optionally Manned or Unmanned Aerial Vehicle
NOAA National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
OPV Optionally Piloted Vehicle
OTH Over The Horizon
P&S Perch and Stare
PID Positive Identification
P-P Pusher Prop
Rad Radiation Detection
RATO Rocket Assisted Takeoff
RCU Remote Control Unit
RDT&E Research, Development, Test & Evaluation
Recon Reconnaissance
RF Radio Frequency
R-L Rail-Launched
R/S Reconnaissance/Surveillance
RSTA Reconnaissance/Surveillance/ Target Acquisition
RTA Reconnaissance/Target Acquisition
RTA-A Reconnaissance/Target Acquisition-Attack
S Stealth
SA Situational Awareness
S&R-SAR Search & Rescue
SIGINT Signals Intelligence
S-Aut Semi-Autonomous
Sea Sea-Launch (surface or submarine)
S-L Ship Launch
SOF Special Operations Forces
SOFC Solid Oxide Fuel Cell
SR Short Range
STAR Surveillance/Target Acquisition/ Reconnaissance
STUAS Small Tactical Unmanned Air System
SUAS Small Unmanned Aerial System
Sub-Tac Sub-Tactical UAV
TA T arget Acquisition
TAS True Air Speed
T-L Transporter Launcher
TUAV Tactical UAV
VLO Very Low Observable
V-LOS Visual Line of Site

SUPPLEMENT TO AEROSPACE AMERICA 31

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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

Dreamreaper said:


>



MASHA ALLAH. This is what I used to think about these birds. Also PAC should have reduced their fleet by converting 69 Mushak out of 149 into spares for support and build some new Super Mushak for training purpose...

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## fatman17

Pakistan

Meanwhile, across the border Pakistan has a fairly strong indigenous UAV industry, with local companies producing a variety of small and medium UAVs for commercial and military use. The military has great demand for UAVs in order to monitor the Kashmir region and keep an eye on militants, particularly in the mountainous tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.
Some of the main unmanned aircraft companies in Pakistan include Integrated Dynamics, East West Infiniti and state-owned Air Weapons Complex and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. Satuma (Surveillance and Target Unmanned Aircraft) is a major manufacturer, having developed the Jasoos, the larger and more capable Flamingo, and Mukhbar (a shorter-range version of the Jasoos). The Jasoos is in turn a development of the Air Weapons Complex Bravo+, which has been in Pakistan Air Force service since 2004. The Bravo made its public debut in March 2001.
Global Industrial and Defence Solutions (GIDS) at the IDEAS show in November 2012 showcased its Shahpar 470 kg (1 000 lb) UAV, with an endurance of seven hours. The aircraft is apparently ready for production and will complement GIDS&#8217; Uqab tactical UAV, which is flown by the Pakistan Navy and Army (entering service with the latter in 2007). The Pakistan Navy is also procuring the Integrated Defence Solutions (IDS) Huma rocket-launched UAV, based on the Uqab. This has been developed into the improved Huma-1 and Huma-2 with an endurance of 5+ hours.
Pakistan&#8217;s state-owned National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) is developing the Burraq UAV, which will be fitted with a laser designator and laser-guided missiles, but the status of this programme is uncertain. Pakistan had hoped to acquire a dozen RQ-7B Shadow UAVs in three systems but this procurement project seems to be on hold. In collaboration with Selex Galileo, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has started manufacturing the Falco UAV. In June 2012 the Pakistan Navy bought eight EMT LUNA UAVs from Germany &#8211; the Army acquired the system in 2006, which is essentially an unmanned motor glider.


Asian Defence News

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## Donatello

Dreamreaper said:


>



If they have installed the FLIR, i am assuming Mushak are also being used for scout activities? Makes sense since it is cheaper to fly Mushak than to fly over a Mirage RP.


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> If they have installed the FLIR, i am assuming Mushak are also being used for scout activities? Makes sense since it is cheaper to fly Mushak than to fly over a Mirage RP.



Mushshak/Mi-17s are only good for watch-over missions in FATA. When your enemy has no proper airdefence + the target sector is in reachable distance. C-130s equipped with similar systems have much endurance and more 'human-strength' involved; complete change in mission planning can be done in the air with such C-130.

Mirage-IIIRP/F-16 equipped with such pod has armed+recce role. Higher the speed, easier for it to reach back without encountering enemy air defence. Also, such pods add too much electronic detail as compare to a single EO/IR camera mounted under nose of a heli/Mushshak.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> *Country Pakistan*
> Prime Contractor......Designation....Status...Launch/Propulsion
> 
> Integrated Dynamics.Border Eagle Mk II.In production..Piston P-P
> .Desert Hawk. Under way. ..Hand-launched
> .Explorer. Under way. ....G-L, T-L P-P
> .Hawk Mk5.. Deployed.. ...GAS prop
> ..Hornet Mk4 Deployed ..Piston prop
> ..Nishan Mk II.. Under way.. GAS P-P
> ..Nishan TJ 1000. Under way.. Mini-turbo
> ..Pride Under way. ......H-L -Electric prop
> ..Rover Mk-1 Under way.. ..H-L - Electric P-P
> ..Shadow Mk-I.. Under way. .P-P
> .SKYCAM. Under way.. .....H-L - Electric P-P
> .Spirit..Under way.. .....H-L -Electric prop
> .Tornado 2000. Under way ..Mini-turbojet - C-L
> .Vector Under way. .....Twin-boom P-P
> .Vision Mk1/Mk2.. Under way ..P-P
> NESCOM .....Burraq Unknown
> SATUMA .....Flamingo. Completed.. G-L - GAS prop
> ..FST........................Deployed. G-L - GAS P-P
> ..HST ....Deployed. G-L - GAS P-P
> .Jasoos II/Bravo+ Deployed. GAS P-P
> Mukhbar.. ...Completed.. G-L - GAS P-P
> Shooting Star.. Deployed RATO - Turbojet
> Stingray Under way.. B-L -Electric prop
> Sky-C Under way.. H-L -Electric prop
> Thunder SR. Deployed C-L - GAS
> Thunder LR. Deployed. C-L - GAS
> Technocrafts.. Ababeel Under way
> Jumbo Baaz Under way Gas/oil rotary
> 
> 
> KEY TO ABBREVIATIONS & ACRONYMS
> 
> ACTD Advanced Concept & Technology Demonstrator
> Ag Agriculture/Crop Monitoring
> A-L Air Launched
> AMW Anti-Mine Warfare
> AP Aerial Photography
> ASW Anti-Submarine Warfare
> ATA Air-Air (missile/gun attack)
> ATOL Automatic Takeoff/Landing
> ATG Air-Ground (missile/gun attack)
> BAMS Broad-Area Maritime Surveillance
> BCTM-2 Brigade Combat Team Modernization (BCTM) Increment 2
> BDA Battle Damage Assessment
> B-L Bungee-Launched
> BLOS Beyond Line-of-Sight
> BP Border Patrol
> BWB Blended Wing Body
> Can Canister
> CAS Civil Air Surveillance
> CAV Compact Air Vehicle
> Chem Chemical Detection
> CICADA Close-In Covert Autonomous Disposable Aircraft
> CIRPAS Center for Interdisciplinary Remotely Piloted Aircraft Studies
> C-L Catapult-Launched
> COIN Counter-Insurgency
> COMM Communications
> EFI Electronic Fuel Injection
> ELINT Electronic Intelligence
> Env Environmental Monitoring
> E/O Electro/Optical
> EOD Explosive Ordnance Disposal
> EW Electronic Warfare
> FCS Future Combat System
> FW Fixed Wing
> GAS Gasoline Engine
> G-L Ground Launched
> gMAV Gasoline Micro Air Vehicle
> H&S Hover and Stare
> HALE High Altitude/Long Endurance
> HF Heavry Fuel
> H-L Hand-Launched
> HS Homeland Security
> ImiNT Images Intelligence
> Infra Infrastructure Monitoring
> IR Infrared
> ISR Intelligence/Survellance/Reconnaissance
> ISTAR Intelligence/Surveillance/Target	Acquisition/Reconnaissance
> ISTAR-A Intelligence/Surveillance/Target Acquisition/Reconnaissance-Attack
> JCTD Joint Capability Technology Demonstration
> LALE Low Altitude/Long Endurance
> LAS Lightweight Aerostat System
> LCS Littoral Combat Ship
> LH2 Liquid Hydrogen
> LOS Line of Sight
> LR Long Range
> LRIP Low-Rate Initial Production
> LTA Lighter Than Air
> MAGIC Medium Altitude Global ISR and Communications
> MALE Medium Altitude/Long Endurance
> MALE-EP Medium Altitude/Long Endurance/Extreme Persistence
> Map Aerial Mapping
> MAV Micro Air Vehicle
> MDA Maritime Domain Awareness
> MM/MR Multimission/Multirole
> MOGAS Motor Gasoline
> MR Medium Range
> M/UAV Optionally Manned or Unmanned Aerial Vehicle
> NOAA National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
> OPV Optionally Piloted Vehicle
> OTH Over The Horizon
> P&S Perch and Stare
> PID Positive Identification
> P-P Pusher Prop
> Rad Radiation Detection
> RATO Rocket Assisted Takeoff
> RCU Remote Control Unit
> RDT&E Research, Development, Test & Evaluation
> Recon Reconnaissance
> RF Radio Frequency
> R-L Rail-Launched
> R/S Reconnaissance/Surveillance
> RSTA Reconnaissance/Surveillance/ Target Acquisition
> RTA Reconnaissance/Target Acquisition
> RTA-A Reconnaissance/Target Acquisition-Attack
> S Stealth
> SA Situational Awareness
> S&R-SAR Search & Rescue
> SIGINT Signals Intelligence
> S-Aut Semi-Autonomous
> Sea Sea-Launch (surface or submarine)
> S-L Ship Launch
> SOF Special Operations Forces
> SOFC Solid Oxide Fuel Cell
> SR Short Range
> STAR Surveillance/Target Acquisition/ Reconnaissance
> STUAS Small Tactical Unmanned Air System
> SUAS Small Unmanned Aerial System
> Sub-Tac Sub-Tactical UAV
> TA T arget Acquisition
> TAS True Air Speed
> T-L Transporter Launcher
> TUAV Tactical UAV
> VLO Very Low Observable
> V-LOS Visual Line of Site
> 
> SUPPLEMENT TO AEROSPACE AMERICA 31



Old data and even no mention of shahpar UAV...

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## pac-cac

See Pakistani UAV's

Satuma.com.pk


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## Bilal.

Why Pakistani UAVs have short endurance and low payload compared to UAVs of similar size from other countries?


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## VARYA

good efort


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## That Guy

Bilal. said:


> Why Pakistani UAVs have short endurance and low payload compared to UAVs of similar size from other countries?



They don't.

I think the better question would be "why hasn't Pakistan developed a MALE drone?", and the answer would be both money restraints, and lack of technology.


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## Bilal.

That Guy said:


> They don't.
> 
> I think the better question would be "why hasn't Pakistan developed a MALE drone?", and the answer would be both money restraints, and lack of technology.



They do, for instance, compare the size, engine power, payload, endurance and ceiling of Shahpar and Falco.


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## That Guy

Bilal. said:


> They do, for instance, compare the size, engine power, payload, endurance and ceiling of Shahpar and Falco.



They're pretty similar, but the main difference is the powerplants. Shahpar uses a Ukrainian power plant, while the Falco uses an Italian power plant. No two UAVs are the same, they all have similar capabilities.

*Endurance:*

Shahpar = 7-10 hours

Falco = 10-14 hours

*Payload:*

Shahpar = 50 kg

Falco = 70 Kg

*Size:*

Shahpar -

Air Vehicle Length = 4.2 m

Wing Span = 6.6 m

Falco -

Length = 5.25 m 
Wingspan = 7.2 m

--

Not much difference.

There is also the difference of technology and expertise, Pakistan is behind Italy and China, so obviously the Pakistani UAVs won't be as advanced as Italian.

Over all though, they're not that different.


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## Bilal.

As per GIDS site shahpar's endurance is ~ 7 hours that's just 50% of falco, plus the falco has 40% more payload. One can't say it's not much of a difference, that's quite a lot of difference.


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## That Guy

Bilal. said:


> As per GIDS site shahpar's endurance is ~ 7 hours that's just 50% of falco, plus the falco has 40% more payload. One can't say it's not much of a difference, that's quite a lot of difference.



Considering that most missions usually last about 6 hours, and that 7 hour mark is with maximum payload, I'd have to disagree. The payload and the endurance doesn't make much of a difference in the long run, simply because they're both surveillance drones and the payload on them will be minimal at best. These differences only matter if we're taking about a hunter/killer drone.

While you could make the argument that surveillance drones need a higher endurance, that's not necessarily true, like I mentioned previously, their missions usually end before their expected endurance limit. Also keep in mind that the higher the payload on the drone is, the harder it is to keep it in the air, thus it takes away a lot of the endurance time. It's kind of like a car, if you fill the car with furniture, you'll find yourself running out of gas quicker than if the car was empty.


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## Bilal.

That Guy said:


> Considering that most missions usually last about 6 hours, and that 7 hour mark is with maximum payload, I'd have to disagree. The payload and the endurance doesn't make much of a difference in the long run, simply because they're both surveillance drones and the payload on them will be minimal at best. These differences only matter if we're taking about a hunter/killer drone.
> 
> While you could make the argument that surveillance drones need a higher endurance, that's not necessarily true, like I mentioned previously, their missions usually end before their expected endurance limit. Also keep in mind that the higher the payload on the drone is, the harder it is to keep it in the air, thus it takes away a lot of the endurance time. It's kind of like a car, if you fill the car with furniture, you'll find yourself running out of gas quicker than if the car was empty.



Bhai it does matter. How did you come to the conclusion that "most missions take 6 hours" can you cite some study? The fact of the matter is the longer the UAV can loiter the more intelligence it can gather. Plus, the payload matters because one can put heavier(better) and multiple sensors on the craft, for instance, electro-optical, esm and even SAR all at once, or of more capabilities.


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## That Guy

Bilal. said:


> Bhai it does matter. How did you come to the conclusion that "most missions take 6 hours" can you cite some study? The fact of the matter is the longer the UAV can loiter the more intelligence it can gather. Plus, the payload matters because one can put heavier(better) and multiple sensors on the craft, for instance, electro-optical, esm and even SAR all at once, or of more capabilities.



This is common knowledge, look through the forum if you want some answers.

During the Swat operation, uavs were used to map out the area and give live feed, but most of them were only in the air for 4-6 hours at most. Keep in mind that it was the Falco that was used, so the extra time was not used at all.

Just because a UAV can hang around the air for a long time, doesn't mean that you'll be getting useful information, in fact, it's not cost effective at all.

As for the payload, you're talking about loaded weight, not empty weight. Most UAVs come with all you'll need to operate them effectively, and whatever is listed is simply empty weight. The empty weight is for anything extra you might want to put on, but in the end, it's not a necessity.

Look, don't argue with me, I've been doing this for a long long time.


----------



## Bilal.

That Guy said:


> This is common knowledge, look through the forum if you want some answers.
> 
> During the Swat operation, uavs were used to map out the area and give live feed, but most of them were only in the air for 4-6 hours at most. Keep in mind that it was the Falco that was used, so the extra time was not used at all.
> 
> Just because a UAV can hang around the air for a long time, doesn't mean that you'll be getting useful information, in fact, it's not cost effective at all.
> 
> As for the payload, you're talking about loaded weight, not empty weight. Most UAVs come with all you'll need to operate them effectively, and whatever is listed is simply empty weight. The empty weight is for anything extra you might want to put on, but in the end, it's not a necessity.
> 
> Look, don't argue with me, I've been doing this for a long long time.



First my friend, nobody is arguing, it's a discussion forum and we are discussing and all of us enthusiasts are doing it for a VERY long time, with due respect don't, if you are talking about being a defence enthusiast then with due respect don't assume you are the only one.

Your assertion that endurance is not useful goes against the whole trend of UAV development, with developers striving for longer endurance in improved versions, for instance, falco evo has an increased endurance of 18 hour. 

As for payload, I was neither talking about mtow or empty weight, I was talking about the payload weight, i.e., the weight of equipment (sensors) it can lift.


----------



## That Guy

Bilal. said:


> First my friend, nobody is arguing, it's a discussion forum and we are discussing and all of us enthusiasts are doing it for a VERY long time, with due respect don't, if you are talking about being a defence enthusiast then with due respect don't assume you are the only one.
> 
> *Your assertion that endurance is not useful goes against the whole trend of UAV development, with developers striving for longer endurance in improved versions, for instance, falco evo has an increased endurance of 18 hour.
> 
> As for payload, I was neither talking about mtow or empty weight, I was talking about the payload weight, i.e., the weight of equipment (sensors) it can lift.*



I never said that endurance wasn't useful, one of the foundations of UAVs is that they stay up in the air longer than manned planes.

The Falco Evo is a different type of UAV, it's a MALE UAV, whereas the Falco and Shahpar are both MAME UAVs, different categories. Most MALE UAVs are designed as such that they're able to multi role as strike platforms, which is why they tend to be bigger in size. The EVO is designed with the mindset that it will be able to carry a large payload, which includes weaponry, the Falco was clearly not designed for such things. The Shahpar is...odd as it's original design (China's CH-3) was designed to carry "the Blue Arrow 7 semi active laser guided missiles" and was a lot larger too, but as far as I know, the Shahpar is not.

If you're talking about overall payload weight, each UAV developer designs their UAVs around the payload capacity that they're looking for. The Shahpar was designed to carry a specific amount, with only a few different types of equipment, where as the Falco was designed to carry a larger variety of equipment. Even their designs show that basic difference, but has that made a difference in the battlefield? Not really, as they're both doing their job effectively.

Look, you're new, so all I'll tell you is that this info is on the forums, look through them, use the search bar if you want to know. This information exists on the forums already, because you're not the first to ask. I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that, look for the answer yourself, before you ask the question on the forums.


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## airomerix

Combat radius/Endurance is something which all the jet makers have been striving for. May they be wright brothers or the guys working at skunk works, Lockheed Martin.


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## razgriz19

What kind of piston banger does shahpar uav use?
is it locally made or the typical lycoming/continental?


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## nomi007

Foreign media said the Pakistani industry officials pointed out that the Chinese government is willing to sell domestically CH-3 Pakistani armed UAV, the UAV can carry two laser-guided missiles or bombs. Meanwhile, the Chinese government also wishes to Pakistan to provide more advanced CH-4 UAVs. The Chinese side expressed, CH-4 UAV and the United States "Death" unmanned aerial vehicles are very similar, can carry four laser-guided missiles or bombs.

It is reported that Pakistan has yet to buy Chinese armed drones, Pakistan has yet to verify that the performance of these drones. But well-known Pakistani UAV project, informed sources said that Pakistan in the future may still choose Chinese armed UAVs.
[ &#1514;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#1130;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533; ÌúÑªÂÛÌ³ ¨C ÌúÑªÉçÇø - ÌúÑªÍø ]

According ** Defense Review: China launched the latest CH-4 unmanned attack aircraft, carrying four AR-1 anti-tank missiles , a range of 1,600 km, endurance time of 14 hours, which is by far, China's exports UAV attack The most powerful person capacity.

CH-4 -altitude, long-endurance UAV with four pylons, live shows can be mounted two FT-5 UAV special type precision-guided bombs and two unmanned aerial vehicles dedicated AR-1 -to-ground missiles. Installed on the belly of a photoelectric detector head and an antenna, it should be EO / IR sensor rotary antenna tower and satellite data or laser receivers; CH-4 long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicle has a payload of large, high performance reconnaissance strikes its wingspan of 18 meters overall, cruising altitude 5 km, a maximum range of 3,500 km, life time 30 hours. Command and control vehicle from the scene, the entire UAV system has high mobility, according to the battlefield a suitable site for mobile deployment, the system adaptable to the environment. CH-4 is the first in the country Airshow, better than "Predator A". Experts depth interpretation Chinese version of "Predator" CH-4 UAV

Rainbow -4 has four weapons pylons maximum range of 3,500 km

Rainbow -4 is the first in the country Airshow, better than the U.S. "Predator A". Rainbow -4 altitude of 7-8 km, the flight speed of up to 300 km / h, flight duration is more than 40 hours, you can fly continuously for two days and two nights, perform remote tasks. In terms of weapons and equipment, rainbow -4 hung beneath the front wing ground missiles and bombs, which means it is not only perform reconnaissance missions, but also to attack targets on the ground. ("Rainbow" -4 UAV airframe has increased over the rainbow -3, wingspan of 18 meters, payload, flight altitude, cruise time, has improved significantly. Truck loads up to 300 kg, cruising height of 8000 meters, stayed in the air for up to 40 hours, a maximum range of 3,500 km.

Rainbow -4 has four weapons pylons, this structure with a large active duty U.S. military unmanned attack aircraft MQ-9 Reaper similar. Rainbow -4 also be on the outermost two pylons, each carrying a weight of about 100 kg of FT-5 (FT -5) Lightweight precision-guided bombs. To judge from the mount, rainbow -4 payload at least 400 kilograms or more. In addition, according to the exhibitor presentation, rainbow -4 altitude of 7-8 km, the flight speed of up to 300 km / h, flight duration is more than 40 hours. Rainbow -4 estimates in light load conditions, combat radius may 1200 km. Rainbow -4 UAV widely used in the military field can be used for reconnaissance, surveillance and ground attack, in the civilian aspects also has good market prospects, such as the bear forest fire , meteorological surveying, marine surveying, geological prospecting and other functions. In addition, the machine can also be police, do you want to patrol the criminals to track other tasks. The Zhuhai Airshow there are several high-performance unmanned aerial vehicles, pterosaurs, Grand, etc. They are all witness the latest achievements in the field of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs areas gradually make our walk in front of European and American countries.


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## Lone Ranger

*List of Pakistan Unmanned Aerial Vehicals (UAV)*

Ababeel (Small Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
Ababeel III (Target Drone),developed by Albadeey Technologies.
Aerobot (Various research purposes), developed by Pakistan Aerospace.
Bazz UAV (Target Drone), developed by Technocrafts.
Baaz UAV (large) (Large Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
Border Eagle (Surveillance Drone),developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Burraq UAV (Combat drone under development by NESCOM).
Explorer UAV (Civilian UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Falco UAV (Version of Italian drone built by PAC under licence.)[90]
Firefly UAV (Rocket Propelled UAV), under development by Integrated Dynamics.
Flamingo UAV (Medium Range UAV), Reconnaissance Drone built by SATUMA.
FST UAV(Full Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
GIDS Shahpar, developed by GIDS.
Hawk MK-V UAV, developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Hornet UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
HST UAV (Half Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
HUMA I (Remote Sensing), developed by Integrated Defence Systems.
Jasoos (Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Jasoos II (Bravo +), (Tactical Range Reconnaissance), developed by SATUMA.
Jumbo Bazz (Larger Version of Bazz), developed by Technocrafts.
Mini Electric UAV (Silent UAV), developed by Technocrafts.
Mukhbaar (Short Range Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Nishan MK-II (High Speed Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Nishan TJ-1000 (Jet Powered Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Rover UAV (Civilian Scientific Data Gatherer), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Satuma NB-X2
Satuma Jassos
Shadow MK-II (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Shooting Star UAV (High Speed Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Stingray UAV (Mini UAV), developed by SATUMA.
Tornado UAV (Decoy UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Tunder SR (Short Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Tunder LR (Long Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Uqab UAV (Real Time Reconnaissance), developed by ACES.
Uqab-II (Naval Variant of the Uqab), Pakistan Navy has inducted first squadron.
Vector UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Vision MK-I (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Vision MK-II (Larger version of MK-I), developed by Integrated Dynamics.

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## Panther 57

How many of them are actually working


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## The Deterrent

Panther 57 said:


> How many of them are actually working



All of them.


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## fatman17

*UAV/UCAV II *




*Soaring Dragon*



Besides Wing Loong, another long-range UAV called *Soaring Dragon *was jointly developed by 611 Institute and GAIC . This large UAV features a box/diamond wing design to increase lift while reducing drag and weight. *Soaring Dragon* reportedly weighs 7,500kg and has a range of 7,000km, a cruising speed of 750km/hr and a cruising altitude of 18,000m. A full-scale model (?) was built and tested at CAC in 2011. Subsequently it underwent substantial redesign based on the issues revealed during the tests. The new *Soaring Dragon* appears to feature several major changes. It has a smaller length and wingspan and has twin vertical tailfins slanted outwards. This gives the UAV a lower profile. Smilar to *BZK-009*, it has a head bulge housing a SATCOM antenna, and is likely powered by the same WS-11 turbofan engine with a dorsal air intake. Several dark fairings can be seen under the fuselage which could house EO equipment and SAR antenna. It was rumored that a *Soaring Dragon* prototype was built by mid-2012 and first flight took place in late 2012 at the GAIC airfield.
_- Last Updated 11/6/13_

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## Kompromat

Sir what does this thing have to do with Pakistan's UAV developments, we cant afford it.

@fatman17


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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *UAV/UCAV II *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Soaring Dragon*
> 
> 
> 
> Besides Wing Loong, another long-range UAV called *Soaring Dragon *was jointly developed by 611 Institute and GAIC . This large UAV features a box/diamond wing design to increase lift while reducing drag and weight. *Soaring Dragon* reportedly weighs 7,500kg and has a range of 7,000km, a cruising speed of 750km/hr and a cruising altitude of 18,000m. A full-scale model (?) was built and tested at CAC in 2011. Subsequently it underwent substantial redesign based on the issues revealed during the tests. The new *Soaring Dragon* appears to feature several major changes. It has a smaller length and wingspan and has twin vertical tailfins slanted outwards. This gives the UAV a lower profile. Smilar to *BZK-009*, it has a head bulge housing a SATCOM antenna, and is likely powered by the same WS-11 turbofan engine with a dorsal air intake. Several dark fairings can be seen under the fuselage which could house EO equipment and SAR antenna. It was rumored that a *Soaring Dragon* prototype was built by mid-2012 and first flight took place in late 2012 at the GAIC airfield.
> _- Last Updated 11/6/13_



They can prove as better MPAs then manned ones. Also the Turbo prop version of UAVs like China and may be Pakistan has also develop can keep an eye on Coast 24/7....


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## nwmalik

It is not sensible to have so many programs.
we should concentrate on few of them and develop them,


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## HAIDER

The Shahpar drone, shown here in this photo from the International Defence Exhibition (IDEAS) in Karachi, Pakistan on Nov 15, 2012.—AP/File Photo



RAWALPINDI: The Pakistani military on Monday announced its first fleet of indigenously developed surveillance-capable drones at a ceremony attended by the Army chief.

According to a press release, the introduction of the two unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), called the ‘Burraq’ and ‘Shahpar’ systems in the Pakistan Army and Air Force, are “a landmark and historic event, wherein a very effective force multiplier has been added to the inventory of the armed forces.”

Pakistan already has several types of unarmed surveillance drones in operation, but ‘Burraq’ and ‘Shahpar’ are the first to be developed locally.

The drones have been developed in cooperation with the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) is a civilian controlled Pakistani scientific research organisation.

“In the future, these UAVs could also be gainfully employed in various socio-economic development projects as well,” said the release from ISPR, the media wing of the military.

The unveiling ceremony was attended by Chief of Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Chief of the Air Staff Tahir Rafique Butt, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lt-Gen (R) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, and senior officers from the armed forces, scientists and engineers, said the ISPR statement.

The induction of the indigenously developed surveillance capable UAVs in Pakistan’s armed forces is a force multiplier, and will substantially enhance their target acquisition capabilities in real time, said the Army chief while appreciating the work of NESCOM scientists and engineers.

The ISPR statement did not state whether the surveillance drones were also capable of being armed with precision missiles, like the UAVs that the US uses to target suspected Taliban and al Qaeda militants in Pakistan’s tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

According to earlier reports in the media, the Pakistani military has working to develop its own armed drones, but has been unsuccessful with a lack of precision munitions and advanced targeting technology.

According to one report, Pakistan carried out weapons tests earlier last year with the Falco, an Italian drone used by the air force for surveillance that has been modified to carry rockets.

According to the same report, the military was also conducting similar tests with the Shahpar.

An unarmed version of the Shahpar was unveiled for the first time at the International Defence Exhibition (IDEAS) in Karachi in November last year.

Industry insiders say that the Chinese government has also reportedly offered to sell Pakistan an armed drone it has produced, the CH-3, which can carry two laser-guided missiles or bombs.
dawn.com

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## DV RULES

Good to hear that and there is always hope to compete the needs of current requirements of armed forces. Realizing poor economy a possibility should be given to concerned organizations to work on precisions of technology.


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## HAIDER

These are armed drone , not mention by dawn but mention on TV. Look at picture presented to Kiyani, its armed and fleet given to Pak army and navy too.

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## Nav

Burraq was supposed to be an Armed Drone.


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## AUz

Video proof of Pakistan armed drones?

Any experts on this?

@AhaseebA @Aeronaut @Oscar @Xeric

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## Secur

@AUz Look closely at the model , mate .


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## Peaceful Civilian

*The armed forces announced on Monday that they had inducted the very first fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) in the Army and the Air Force.*

According to a release from the Inter-services Public Relations (ISPR) announced that the first fleet of strategic drones, ‘Burraq’ and ‘Shahpar’, had been inducted into the forces. Both of the drones were produced indigenously.

*The military described the induction as a “landmark and historic event,” where a “very effective force multiplier has been added to the inventory of the armed forces.”*

“In the future these UAVs could also be gainfully employed in various socio-economic development projects, as well,” it added, hinting at the possibility of using drones in non-combat settings and for civilian use.

The induction ceremony was attended by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (Retd) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, and senior officers from armed forces, scientists and engineers.

General Kayani, while appreciating the work of NESCOM scientists and engineers, highlighted that induction of indigenously developed surveillance capable UAVs in Pakistan Armed Forces is a force multiplier, and will substantially enhance their target acquisition capabilities in real time.


Army, air force induct first fleet of indigenously developed drones – The Express Tribune


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## Liquidmetal

Secur said:


> @AUz Look closely at the model , mate .



But that is a model, and that does not prove anything. It is a model of a design. For example we also have a model of twin seat JFT does not prove anything other than the possible intention to design, build or acquire said platform, what we want to know is the actual reality of us possessing armed drones.


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## AHMED85

So in near future it will be expected these Instruments will be future orient of ISI..
i mean INTELLIGENCE club...
As CIA have....


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## pkuser2k12

*Pakistan introduces fleet of locally developed surveillance capable drones drones ‘Burraq’ and ‘Shahpar’*









*



*




​*Pakistan already has several types of unarmed surveillance drones in operation, but ‘Burraq’ and ‘Shahpar’ are the first to be developed locally.*



The drones have been *developed* in cooperation with *the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) is a civilian controlled Pakistani scientific research organisation.*



*According to one report, Pakistan carried out weapons tests earlier last year with the Falco, an Italian drone used by the air force for surveillance that has been modified to carry rockets. *


*According to the same report, the military was also conducting similar tests with the Shahpar. *



*An unarmed version of the Shahpar was unveiled for the first time at the International Defence Exhibition (IDEAS) in Karachi in November last year.*



* 
Industry insiders say that the Chinese government has also reportedly offered to sell Pakistan an armed drone it has produced, the CH-3, which can carry two laser-guided missiles or bombs.*




*SOURCE:*



*DAWN NEWS*



*Pakistan introduces fleet of locally-developed drones - DAWN.COM*

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## nomi007

finally burraq unveil
congrats to PA and PAF


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## Imran Khan

ok god damn light weapon carriers better then UAV case close . now work one some god damn heavy drone since 2008 we are looking their faces in this regard .


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## nomi007

*Burraq and Shahpur inducted in Pakistan Army and Air fleet*


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## farhan_9909

Any idea which UAV this is?that too in the PAC

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## raazh

Its a Falco. PAC makes it under license from Selex.


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## Ra'ad

Any idea whether Turkish Cirits are planned to be used by burraq and shahpur uavs?


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## nomi007



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## Saifullah Sani

*Drone Technology of Pakistan complete Overview*
*



*

Looking at the facility from outside, no one would guess what goes on within the 90,000-square-foot research facility of Integrated Dynamics (ID), a privately owned company in Karachi. There are no signboards indicating that ID is in the business of developing drone technology for military and civilian use. Surprisingly, there isn`t even an army of security guards manning the complex as one would expect upon entering the gate. A lonesome gate keeper lets us in without a fuss.
Even more startling is the ease with which *R.S. Khan, IDs chief executive, states that `drone technology has existed in Pakistan for the last 20 years.`
Khan, who graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a masters degree in aeronautics and astronautics, is quick to clarify that his company has `never been asked to develop a drone which has an armed implication.`* Instead, ID develops advanced Unmanned Autonomous Vehicle (UAV) systems capable of reconnaissance missions as well as target decoys for anti-aircraft missiles. *His customers, he says, include the armed forces of the country as well as foreign buyers from the US, Australia, Spain, Italy and France. *Although he may not have been asked to develop an armed drone, Khan, who previously worked as a consultant for Pakistan`s aerospace agency Suparco, points out `If we consider the fact that drone development has been taking place in Pakistan for the last 20 years, I think the technology for flying long-range autonomous missions has existed for at least 10-12 years.`
Given Khans estimations about local drone development, it is unclear why Pakistan is asking the US to handover its armed drone technology, especially that of the infamous Predator. President Asif Ali Zardari recently told the British daily Independent that theUS should give Pakistan the `weapons, drones and missiles that will allow us to take care of` the militant threat in the tribal areas.
*`If you ask anyone in Pakistan involved in the business of making unmanned UAVs whether something similar to the Predator drone aircraft can be made, the answer would be yes,* explains Khan. I won`t say we can make it overnight or by tomorrow. But I won`t say either that it is a matter of decades. I would say that, if given the task, *we can make such aircrafts in a few years.* As a technologist, Khan is hesitant to speculate as to why the Pakistan government or armed forces are not investing in home-made technology. I think you need to ask the policy makers that.UAVs in Pakistan
Interestingly, there are several public sector companies involved in developing UAVs inPakistan, including the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Air Weapons Complex (AWC) and National Development Complex (NDC).
*The PACs Uqaab drone is in use by the Pakistan Army, and, according to unconfirmed reports, is being upgraded with Chinese help to carry a weapons payload.* Other PAC UAVs include the Bazz and Ababeel. AWCs Bravo+ UAV is in use of the Pakistan Airforce (PAF). The PAF recently acquired an unarmed Italian drone called the Falco UAV, which is reportedly being used for surveillance and battleground assessments in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. In 2008, the Pakistan Navy also reportedly completed trials of UAVs – the Austrian Schiebel Camcopter S-100 and Swedish Cybaero – from a Pakistani frigate in the Arabian Sea.
*Private sector companies are also involved in the design and development of UAVs. Apart from ID in Karachi, East-West Infinity (EWI), Satuma and Global Industrial Defense Solutions (GIDS) are in the drone-making business.
The EWIs Heliquad UAV is considered a stealth design because of its small size and Whisper Watch signals intelligence package, which is capable of picking up radio and other communication signals. IDs Nishan Mk1 and TJ1000, Vision MK1 & MK2, Tornado, Border Eagle, Hornet, Hawk and Vector are also popular models employed by the armed forces for reconnaissance missions and target practice (each model varies in range and endurance). Satumas UAVs, with similar functionalities, are called Flamingo, Jasoos and Mukhbar. For its part, the GIDS develops the Huma-1 UAV and its own version of the Uqaab.*
Even though almost all UAVs in the country have been built for military applications – reconnaissance, simulations, decoy systems, remote sensing – none of them are reported to be capable of firing arms. Moreover, none of the above-mentioned facilities are involved in large-scale, mass production of UAVs.
Policy on drones
It is still not clear what Pakistan`s policy regarding unmanned drones is. On the one hand, Pakistan has `condemn[ed] in the strongest terms` any US drone attack. On the other hand, reports have emerged that the US has the tacit approval of the current government.
*Previously, former president Pervez Musharraf had reportedly authorized Washington to launch Predator drones from secret bases near Islamabad and Jacobabad. Google Earth images of an airbase in Balochistan hosting Predators had also emerged at a time when Pakistan was adamantly claiming that all drones were flying in fromAfghanistan. More recently, the Pakistan Army `practiced` shooting down drones, but even then, foreign aircrafts continued to rain in their missiles.
IDs Khan explains that shooting down drones to prevent attacks is a viable option. `From a technical standpoint, all it takes is a simple air-to-air or surface-to-air missile to bring the drone down. Almost all of these aircrafts have a very low radar signature. But they`re not undetectable. They can be detected, he says. The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.
Drones vs. casualties*
`The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.`
According to news reports, US drone attacks have killed around 701 people in Pakistansince 2006, including 14 alleged Al Qaeda leaders. Although armed UAVs or drones provide safety to their operators since they cannot be harmed if the aircraft are shot down during combat operations, they come at the cost of scores of civilian casualties, who bear the brunt of aerial raids. Therefore, it is debatable whether the armed drones, even if built and controlled by Pakistan, would actually make a difference in terms of changing the sentiment of the people against their devastating impact.
*The way forward*
Apart from their use in a military context, there is a need to deploy UAVs for the benefit of Pakistani communities. UAVs abroad are being used for a variety of civilian services, including search and rescue operations, environmental analysis, assisting local law enforcers, scientific research and even transport. Situational awareness about a potentially hazardous or calamity-hit areas, for example, in the aftermath of an earthquake, could also be gained through the use of such systems.
The responsibility of implementing this vision rests not only with the companies that develop UAVs, but also with government bodies that should utilise drones to improve their image and efficiency. *After all, drones are not exclusively killing machines.*

Drone Technology of Pakistan Complete Overview | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com

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## Nishan_101

Saifullah Sani said:


> *Drone Technology of Pakistan complete Overview*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Looking at the facility from outside, no one would guess what goes on within the 90,000-square-foot research facility of Integrated Dynamics (ID), a privately owned company in Karachi. There are no signboards indicating that ID is in the business of developing drone technology for military and civilian use. Surprisingly, there isn`t even an army of security guards manning the complex as one would expect upon entering the gate. A lonesome gate keeper lets us in without a fuss.
> Even more startling is the ease with which *R.S. Khan, IDs chief executive, states that `drone technology has existed in Pakistan for the last 20 years.`*
> *Khan, who graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a masters degree in aeronautics and astronautics, is quick to clarify that his company has `never been asked to develop a drone which has an armed implication.`* Instead, ID develops advanced Unmanned Autonomous Vehicle (UAV) systems capable of reconnaissance missions as well as target decoys for anti-aircraft missiles. *His customers, he says, include the armed forces of the country as well as foreign buyers from the US, Australia, Spain, Italy and France. *Although he may not have been asked to develop an armed drone, Khan, who previously worked as a consultant for Pakistan`s aerospace agency Suparco, points out `If we consider the fact that drone development has been taking place in Pakistan for the last 20 years, I think the technology for flying long-range autonomous missions has existed for at least 10-12 years.`
> Given Khans estimations about local drone development, it is unclear why Pakistan is asking the US to handover its armed drone technology, especially that of the infamous Predator. President Asif Ali Zardari recently told the British daily Independent that theUS should give Pakistan the `weapons, drones and missiles that will allow us to take care of` the militant threat in the tribal areas.
> *`If you ask anyone in Pakistan involved in the business of making unmanned UAVs whether something similar to the Predator drone aircraft can be made, the answer would be yes,* explains Khan. I won`t say we can make it overnight or by tomorrow. But I won`t say either that it is a matter of decades. I would say that, if given the task, *we can make such aircrafts in a few years.* As a technologist, Khan is hesitant to speculate as to why the Pakistan government or armed forces are not investing in home-made technology. I think you need to ask the policy makers that.UAVs in Pakistan
> Interestingly, there are several public sector companies involved in developing UAVs inPakistan, including the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Air Weapons Complex (AWC) and National Development Complex (NDC).
> *The PACs Uqaab drone is in use by the Pakistan Army, and, according to unconfirmed reports, is being upgraded with Chinese help to carry a weapons payload.* Other PAC UAVs include the Bazz and Ababeel. AWCs Bravo+ UAV is in use of the Pakistan Airforce (PAF). The PAF recently acquired an unarmed Italian drone called the Falco UAV, which is reportedly being used for surveillance and battleground assessments in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. In 2008, the Pakistan Navy also reportedly completed trials of UAVs – the Austrian Schiebel Camcopter S-100 and Swedish Cybaero – from a Pakistani frigate in the Arabian Sea.
> *Private sector companies are also involved in the design and development of UAVs. Apart from ID in Karachi, East-West Infinity (EWI), Satuma and Global Industrial Defense Solutions (GIDS) are in the drone-making business.*
> *The EWIs Heliquad UAV is considered a stealth design because of its small size and Whisper Watch signals intelligence package, which is capable of picking up radio and other communication signals. IDs Nishan Mk1 and TJ1000, Vision MK1 & MK2, Tornado, Border Eagle, Hornet, Hawk and Vector are also popular models employed by the armed forces for reconnaissance missions and target practice (each model varies in range and endurance). Satumas UAVs, with similar functionalities, are called Flamingo, Jasoos and Mukhbar. For its part, the GIDS develops the Huma-1 UAV and its own version of the Uqaab.*
> Even though almost all UAVs in the country have been built for military applications – reconnaissance, simulations, decoy systems, remote sensing – none of them are reported to be capable of firing arms. Moreover, none of the above-mentioned facilities are involved in large-scale, mass production of UAVs.
> Policy on drones
> It is still not clear what Pakistan`s policy regarding unmanned drones is. On the one hand, Pakistan has `condemn[ed] in the strongest terms` any US drone attack. On the other hand, reports have emerged that the US has the tacit approval of the current government.
> *Previously, former president Pervez Musharraf had reportedly authorized Washington to launch Predator drones from secret bases near Islamabad and Jacobabad. Google Earth images of an airbase in Balochistan hosting Predators had also emerged at a time when Pakistan was adamantly claiming that all drones were flying in fromAfghanistan. More recently, the Pakistan Army `practiced` shooting down drones, but even then, foreign aircrafts continued to rain in their missiles.*
> *IDs Khan explains that shooting down drones to prevent attacks is a viable option. `From a technical standpoint, all it takes is a simple air-to-air or surface-to-air missile to bring the drone down. Almost all of these aircrafts have a very low radar signature. But they`re not undetectable. They can be detected, he says. The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.*
> *Drones vs. casualties*
> `The question really is whether one wants to bring one down or not.`
> According to news reports, US drone attacks have killed around 701 people in Pakistansince 2006, including 14 alleged Al Qaeda leaders. Although armed UAVs or drones provide safety to their operators since they cannot be harmed if the aircraft are shot down during combat operations, they come at the cost of scores of civilian casualties, who bear the brunt of aerial raids. Therefore, it is debatable whether the armed drones, even if built and controlled by Pakistan, would actually make a difference in terms of changing the sentiment of the people against their devastating impact.
> *The way forward*
> Apart from their use in a military context, there is a need to deploy UAVs for the benefit of Pakistani communities. UAVs abroad are being used for a variety of civilian services, including search and rescue operations, environmental analysis, assisting local law enforcers, scientific research and even transport. Situational awareness about a potentially hazardous or calamity-hit areas, for example, in the aftermath of an earthquake, could also be gained through the use of such systems.
> The responsibility of implementing this vision rests not only with the companies that develop UAVs, but also with government bodies that should utilise drones to improve their image and efficiency. *After all, drones are not exclusively killing machines.*
> 
> Drone Technology of Pakistan Complete Overview | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com



GIDS and NESCOM should come to Dadu(North-West of Sindh), its quite a hilly place which is quite good strategically. They both should open up their own facility along with KRL and SUPARCO too...


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## Imran Khan



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Posted originally by Dazzler:

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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 17721



I am sure that NESCOM-GIDS are fully capable of making IR-Laser or GPS guided small-medium-heavy bombs of category:
70 KG
110 KG
210 KG
300 KG
700 KG
1100 KG

Then we should only try to do R&D and make our own and export to other Muslim countries.

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## nomi007



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## waz

Once the armed drones are up and flying, the war with the TTP will be massively one sided in our favour. There then will be a real chance of eliminating them completely.

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## nomi007




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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


>

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Nishan_101

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 19810



PN should get at least 11-16 of these to keep an eye all along the cost 24/7 and MPAs along with other patrol boats can take care of outer boundary....

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## nomi007

Nishan_101 said:


> PN should get at least 11-16 of these to keep an eye all along the cost 24/7 and MPAs along with other patrol boats can take care of outer boundary....


totally agree

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## raazh

Which Pakistani UAV can fly at 75KM Altitude ??





Hope this contract goes via successfully. More such local orders should be encouraged in order to promote local defense industry.

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## fatman17

*Shahpar Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Pakistan*
*
Key Data*

*Type* Unmanned aerial vehicle
*Manufacturer* Global Industrial Defence Solution
*Service Entry* 2012
*Length* 4.2m
*Wingspan* 6.6m
*Cruise Speed* 150kph (81kts)





Shahpar is a tactical unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed, developed and manufactured by Global Industrial Defence Solution (GIDS) for the Pakistan Armed Forces. The UAV can be deployed for real-time reconnaissance and surveillance, monitoring, target acquisition, situational awareness and disaster management missions.

The Shahpar UAV was displayed at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) at Karachi Expo Centre in Pakistan in November 2012. It was also demonstrated at the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) in Abu Dhabi, UAE, in February 2013.

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) commissioned the first fleet of Shahpar UAVs into the Pakistan Army and Air Force in November 2013.

*Shahpar UAV design and features*
The medium range Shahpar UAV was indigenously developed in co-operation with the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), a civilian controlled scientific and research organisation of Pakistan.
The vehicle has a length of 4.2m and wing span of 6.6m, and is configured with canard foreplanes positioned in front of the wings. The maximum take-off weight of the UAV is 480kg.
*Falco Tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Pakistan* 
Falco is a state-of-the-art medium-altitude endurance and tactical unmanned air vehicle (UAV) manufactured by the Italian sensors developer Selex Galileo.
The UAV features autonomous take-off and landing capabilities. It can land on a runway independently or with the help of a manual pilot or parachute.

*Payloads attached to the Shahpar UAV*
Shahpar can be integrated with a variety of payloads to execute reconnaissance and surveillance missions during day and night environments. The vehicle is capable of carrying an optical payload of about 50kg.
Other payloads aboard the vehicle include mission planning, management and control, accurate lateral and longitudinal trajectory control, full mission debriefing and simulation, built-in data exploitation and dissemination systems.

The vehicle is also equipped with an autonomous global positioning system (GPS) based tracking and control system, with an option for manual control channel. It can carry additional payloads based on customer requirements.

The UAV has significantly reduced radar cross section (RCS) and features military standard hardware to a level of Environmental Standard 810F. It supports Motion Imagery Standards Board (MISB) compliant video format.

*Sensors of the UAV from GIDS*
The Shahpar UAV is equipped with the latest airborne imaging equipment (AIE), Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor turret that supports the improved local security and mobility of the UAV. The sensor systems include a high end thermal imaging camera, low-light and near infrared (IR) TV, and an eye safe laser range finder (LRF) with a range of around 20km.

The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera, and image processing system to provide extended visibility in harsh weather conditions.

"The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera."

The electro-optical (EO) / IR sensors allow Shahpar to provide the commanders with geo referenced and geo pointing imagery of terrestrial targets. The UAV transmits the captured data to the ground control station through the real-time data link with a range of 250km.

*Engine and performance*
The UAV is powered by a pusher-type four-stroke Rotax 912 ULS engine with four cylinders. The engine produces a power of 100hp.

Shahpar can fly at a cruise speed of 150kph (81kts) and can continuously operate for more than seven hours. The maximum operating altitude of the drone is 5,000m.

*Key players involved with the Shahpar UAV development and manufacturing*
The sensor systems of the UAV were built by Advanced Engineering Research Organization (AERO), a GIDS company, at its manufacturing plant near Islamabad. Another GIDS company, Xpert Engineering Services manufactured most of the components and payload systems of the UAV.

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## nomi007



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Nishan_101

Does PN has also deployed Burraq and Shahpar in the coastal areas or not. I think PN needs them to have a 24/7 eye on the coast and port areas.


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## nomi007



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## rockstar08

is there any pics of locally made UAV with missiles ?


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## Black Eagle 90

fatman17 said:


> *Shahpar Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Pakistan*
> * Key Data*
> 
> *Type* Unmanned aerial vehicle
> *Manufacturer* Global Industrial Defence Solution
> *Service Entry* 2012
> *Length* 4.2m
> *Wingspan* 6.6m
> *Cruise Speed* 150kph (81kts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shahpar is a tactical unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed, developed and manufactured by Global Industrial Defence Solution (GIDS) for the Pakistan Armed Forces. The UAV can be deployed for real-time reconnaissance and surveillance, monitoring, target acquisition, situational awareness and disaster management missions.
> 
> The Shahpar UAV was displayed at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) at Karachi Expo Centre in Pakistan in November 2012. It was also demonstrated at the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) in Abu Dhabi, UAE, in February 2013.
> 
> The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) commissioned the first fleet of Shahpar UAVs into the Pakistan Army and Air Force in November 2013.
> 
> *Shahpar UAV design and features*
> The medium range Shahpar UAV was indigenously developed in co-operation with the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), a civilian controlled scientific and research organisation of Pakistan.
> The vehicle has a length of 4.2m and wing span of 6.6m, and is configured with canard foreplanes positioned in front of the wings. The maximum take-off weight of the UAV is 480kg.
> *Falco Tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Pakistan*
> Falco is a state-of-the-art medium-altitude endurance and tactical unmanned air vehicle (UAV) manufactured by the Italian sensors developer Selex Galileo.
> The UAV features autonomous take-off and landing capabilities. It can land on a runway independently or with the help of a manual pilot or parachute.
> 
> *Payloads attached to the Shahpar UAV*
> Shahpar can be integrated with a variety of payloads to execute reconnaissance and surveillance missions during day and night environments. The vehicle is capable of carrying an optical payload of about 50kg.
> Other payloads aboard the vehicle include mission planning, management and control, accurate lateral and longitudinal trajectory control, full mission debriefing and simulation, built-in data exploitation and dissemination systems.
> 
> The vehicle is also equipped with an autonomous global positioning system (GPS) based tracking and control system, with an option for manual control channel. It can carry additional payloads based on customer requirements.
> 
> The UAV has significantly reduced radar cross section (RCS) and features military standard hardware to a level of Environmental Standard 810F. It supports Motion Imagery Standards Board (MISB) compliant video format.
> 
> *Sensors of the UAV from GIDS*
> The Shahpar UAV is equipped with the latest airborne imaging equipment (AIE), Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor turret that supports the improved local security and mobility of the UAV. The sensor systems include a high end thermal imaging camera, low-light and near infrared (IR) TV, and an eye safe laser range finder (LRF) with a range of around 20km.
> 
> The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera, and image processing system to provide extended visibility in harsh weather conditions.
> 
> "The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera."
> 
> The electro-optical (EO) / IR sensors allow Shahpar to provide the commanders with geo referenced and geo pointing imagery of terrestrial targets. The UAV transmits the captured data to the ground control station through the real-time data link with a range of 250km.
> 
> *Engine and performance*
> The UAV is powered by a pusher-type four-stroke Rotax 912 ULS engine with four cylinders. The engine produces a power of 100hp.
> 
> Shahpar can fly at a cruise speed of 150kph (81kts) and can continuously operate for more than seven hours. The maximum operating altitude of the drone is 5,000m.
> 
> *Key players involved with the Shahpar UAV development and manufacturing*
> The sensor systems of the UAV were built by Advanced Engineering Research Organization (AERO), a GIDS company, at its manufacturing plant near Islamabad. Another GIDS company, Xpert Engineering Services manufactured most of the components and payload systems of the UAV.



Why not selling and bringing Muslim countries to do JV on Military and Commercial products with Pakistan.


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## Kompromat



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## Informant

Weak.


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## nomi007



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## Stealth



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## nomi007

Rover is a hand launched observation and intelligence gathering UAV manufactured by Pakistan. It can be carried by a soldier in his backpack.

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## Kompromat

Panda321 said:


> Which is better NESCOM-PAC or GIDS in making UAVs and other needed equipment?
> 
> Also about Idea Aerospace.



PAC builds falco
NESCOM Builds Burraq
GIDS builds Shahpar with NESCOM
Integrated Dynamics builds small portable and tactical UAVs.

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## Munir

If this development goes as planned we will move in to male UAV's within 5 years. If Nawaz puts in some serious cash it can be done within 1.5 years. I have spoken to talented people that made some UAV's from scrap and won international medal (being the best!) in flying and dropping ordnance).


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## GreenFalcon

The Chinese CH-3 UCAV is from which the Pakistani Burraq was influenced;
I look at these pics to a get a better Idea of the Burraq. 














@rockstar08

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## Irfan Baloch

SeanShah1003 said:


> The Chinese CH-3 UCAV is from which the Pakistani Burraq was influenced;
> I look at these pics to a get a better Idea of the Burraq.
> View attachment 33475
> View attachment 33476
> View attachment 33478
> View attachment 33477
> 
> @rockstar08


second picture looks photo shopped


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## GreenFalcon

Irfan Baloch said:


> second picture looks photo shopped


it's real just bad resolution, heres another view:

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## nomi007

pti using this uav for their jalsa recording
pak armed forces also need to use such type of equipments for airports security as well as boarder security

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> pti using this uav for their jalsa recording
> pak armed forces also need to use such type of equipments for airports security as well as boarder security



It was used by a tv channel .. The uav itself is a Pakistani developed n I self with the armed forces .. Scroll back a few pages and you will find it.

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## Imran Khan

Pakistani ucav program is story of failure++++


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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistani ucav program is story of failure++++


To mare source lagaa kar paas kara do na us bachare ko.
Araz


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> To mare source lagaa kar paas kara do na us bachare ko.
> Araz


Booti china se ayee gee to hi pass ho ga ye na laik bacha


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## Ra'ad

Anything new in uav dev in pakistan?


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## nomi007

*story of* *burraq *

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## Khizar Javed Khan

any pic of burraq drone?


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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistani ucav program is story of failure++++


I think the main issue have been weapon system for a UCAV. 
We have been making drones and i do not think making one capable of carrying a payload is a problem. It is the weapon system, the target acqusation and lock on system, guidance and the missile to arm the UAV that have been the problem and I think these were with NESCOM to be developed.


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## HAZARA

Some of the drones were developed jointly with China

Ababeel (Small Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC[89]
Ababeel III (Target Drone),developed by Albadeey Technologies.[90]
Aerobot (Various research purposes), developed by Pakistan Aerospace.[91]
Bazz UAV (Target Drone), developed by Technocrafts.[92]
Baaz UAV (large) (Large Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC[89]
Border Eagle (Surveillance Drone),developed by Integrated Dynamics.[93]
Burraq UAV (Combat drone under development by NESCOM).[94]
Explorer UAV (Civilian UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[95]
Falco UAV (Version of Italian drone built by PAC under licence.)[96]
Firefly UAV (Rocket Propelled UAV), under development by Integrated Dynamics.[97]
Flamingo UAV (Medium Range UAV), Reconnaissance Drone built by SATUMA.[98]
FST UAV(Full Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.[99]
GIDS Shahpar, developed by GIDS.[100]
Hawk MK-V UAV, developed by Integrated Dynamics.[97][101]
Hornet UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[102]
HST UAV (Half Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.[103]
HUMA I (Remote Sensing), developed by Integrated Defence Systems.[104]
Jasoos (Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.[105]
Jasoos II (Bravo +), (Tactical Range Reconnaissance), developed by SATUMA.[105]
Jumbo Bazz (Larger Version of Bazz), developed by Technocrafts.[106]
Mini Electric UAV (Silent UAV), developed by Technocrafts.[107]
Mukhbaar (Short Range Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.[108]
Nishan MK-II (High-Speed Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[109]
Nishan TJ-1000 (Jet-Powered Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[110]
Rover UAV (Civilian Scientific Data Gatherer), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[111]
Satuma NB-X2[citation needed]
Satuma Jassos[citation needed]
Shadow MK-II (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[112]
Shooting Star UAV (High Speed Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.[113]
Stingray UAV (Mini UAV), developed by SATUMA.[114]
Tornado UAV (Decoy UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[115]
Tunder SR (Short Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.[116]
Tunder LR (Long Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.[117]
Uqab UAV (Real Time Reconnaissance), developed by ACES.[118][119]
Uqab-II (Naval Variant of the Uqab), Pakistan Navy has inducted first squadron.[120]
Vector UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[121]
Vision MK-I (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[122]
Vision MK-II (Larger version of MK-I), developed by Integrated Dynamics.[123]


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## Thorough Pro

these are toys (Quad copters) with limited range, operating time and capability. Armed forces need professional equipment.




nomi007 said:


> pti using this uav for their jalsa recording
> pak armed forces also need to use such type of equipments for airports security as well as boarder security


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## Kompromat



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## WaLeEdK2

Has Pakistan been using burraq in zarb e azb for combat purposes?


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## nomi007

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Has Pakistan been using burraq in zarb e azb for combat purposes?


yp
check previous pages
i shared a news about this


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## naseebkhanniazi

i saw drone over my home it was on low flight looking good


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## nomi007

*EMT Luna X-2000*

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## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> *EMT Luna X-2000*
> View attachment 77245
> View attachment 77246



sir that's my friend in first pic, do u know him?


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## elitepilot09

nomi007 said:


> *EMT Luna X-2000*
> View attachment 77245
> View attachment 77246



Any avid flight sim fans getting a kick out of that joystick? Or is just me


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## nomi007

truthseeker2010 said:


> sir that's my friend in first pic, do u know him?


no i shared a video long time ago also u can check it


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## black-hawk_101

Does PAF acquired those Chinese drones similar to Peradator? Like KSA have bought.


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## nomi007

new color scheme


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## Bratva



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Chinese have developed their own version of *Harpy* by reverse-engineering
i think pakistan also need to develop such type of kamikaze drones for our Taliban


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> Chinese have developed their own version of *Harpy* by reverse-engineering
> i think pakistan also need to develop such type of kamikaze drones for our Taliban


expensive solution
instead using gunships and calling in artillery/ air strike is much better.

think how much each unit will cost and add the support cost.for such one time use unit which is essentially an expensive bomb.



Bratva said:


> View attachment 137911
> View attachment 137912


are these Pakistani drones/ UAV?

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## Bilal.

nomi007 said:


> Chinese have developed their own version of *Harpy* by reverse-engineering
> i think pakistan also need to develop such type of kamikaze drones for our Taliban



They will be more useful in SEAD/DEAD role and anti armour if and EFP is fitted into it.


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## Dazzler

Irfan Baloch said:


> expensive solution
> instead using gunships and calling in artillery/ air strike is much better.
> 
> think how much each unit will cost and add the support cost.for such one time use unit which is essentially an expensive bomb.
> 
> 
> are these Pakistani drones/ UAV?



yes, salex falco at PAC KARMA


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## Bilal.

Irfan Baloch said:


> are these Pakistani drones/ UAV?



PAF Falcos


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## Irfan Baloch

Bilal. said:


> PAF Falcos


thanks
I am used to a different perspective picture of these drones so wasnt sure


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## nomi007

Irfan Baloch said:


> expensive solution
> instead using gunships and calling in artillery/ air strike is much better.
> 
> think how much each unit will cost and add the support cost.for such one time use unit which is essentially an expensive bomb.
> 
> 
> are these Pakistani drones/ UAV?


than good against naval and army use


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> than good against naval and army use


you are effectively talking about a cruse missile


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## nomi007

Shahpar is a tactical unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed, developed and manufactured by Global Industrial Defence Solution (GIDS) for the Pakistan Armed Forces. The UAV can be deployed for real-time reconnaissance and surveillance, monitoring, target acquisition, situational awareness and disaster management missions.

The Shahpar UAV was displayed at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) at Karachi Expo Centre in Pakistan in November 2012. It was also demonstrated at the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) in Abu Dhabi, UAE, in February 2013.

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) commissioned the first fleet of Shahpar UAVs into the Pakistan Army and Air Force in November 2013.

*Shahpar UAV design and features*
The medium range Shahpar UAV was indigenously developed in co-operation with the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), a civilian controlled scientific and research organisation of Pakistan.

The vehicle has a length of 4.2m and wing span of 6.6m, and is configured with canard foreplanes positioned in front of the wings. The maximum take-off weight of the UAV is 480kg.






The UAV features autonomous take-off and landing capabilities. It can land on a runway independently or with the help of a manual pilot or parachute.

*Payloads attached to the Shahpar UAV*
Shahpar can be integrated with a variety of payloads to execute reconnaissance and surveillance missions during day and night environments. The vehicle is capable of carrying an optical payload of about 50kg.

Other payloads aboard the vehicle include mission planning, management and control, accurate lateral and longitudinal trajectory control, full mission debriefing and simulation, built-in data exploitation and dissemination systems.

The vehicle is also equipped with an autonomous global positioning system (GPS) based tracking and control system, with an option for manual control channel. It can carry additional payloads based on customer requirements.

The UAV has significantly reduced radar cross section (RCS) and features military standard hardware to a level of Environmental Standard 810F. It supports Motion Imagery Standards Board (MISB) compliant video format.

*Sensors of the UAV from GIDS*
The Shahpar UAV is equipped with the latest airborne imaging equipment (AIE), Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor turret that supports the improved local security and mobility of the UAV. The sensor systems include a high end thermal imaging camera, low-light and near infrared (IR) TV, and an eye safe laser range finder (LRF) with a range of around 20km.

The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera, and image processing system to provide extended visibility in harsh weather conditions.

"The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera."
The electro-optical (EO) / IR sensors allow Shahpar to provide the commanders with geo referenced and geo pointing imagery of terrestrial targets. The UAV transmits the captured data to the ground control station through the real-time data link with a range of 250km.

*Engine and performance



*
The UAV is powered by a pusher-type four-stroke Rotax 912 ULS engine with four cylinders. The engine produces a power of 100hp.

Shahpar can fly at a cruise speed of 150kph (81kts) and can continuously operate for more than seven hours. The maximum operating altitude of the drone is 5,000m.

*Key players involved with the Shahpar UAV development and manufacturing*
The sensor systems of the UAV were built by Advanced Engineering Research Organization (AERO), a GIDS company, at its manufacturing plant near Islamabad. Another GIDS company, Xpert Engineering Services manufactured most of the components and payload systems of the UAV.

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## nomi007

*Falco Tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Pakistan*
*



*
Falco is a state-of-the-art medium-altitude endurance and tactical unmanned air vehicle (UAV) manufactured by the Italian sensors developer Selex Galileo. It will be co-produced by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at its Kamra facility in Punjab province. The co-production of Falco began in August 2009. Falco is principally employed by the Pakistan Air Force for optronic and electronic surveillance applications, and homeland security operations.

Though the Falco UAV is large enough to accommodate both a missile and targeting system, it will currently be used for only reconnaissance and surveillance applications. Falco will be equipped with laser-guided missiles in the future to carry out offensive operations. The Falco UAV has one hard point on each wing and will carry a load capacity of up to 25kg.

The flight campaign of the Falco UAV was completed in September 2009. Selex Galileo has integrated and tested multiple payloads including electro optic and infrared sensors, and synthetic aperture radar during this campaign. Another six-month campaign was completed in December 2009. The extensive flight test was conducted under extreme weather conditions ranging from the ice-cold temperatures of Northern Europe to 50°C hot desert climate.

*Falco UAV design*
The Falco UAV system has been designed to perform missions such as target detection, localisation, identification and designation through its on-board sensor suite. It also captures information about enemy battlefields and transfers it to commanders at ground stations.

"Falco is principally employed by the Pakistan Air Force for optronic and electronic surveillance."
The system is equipped with automatic take-off and landing facility (with STOL performance), fully redundant and fault-tolerant control systems, digital buses and control link equipment, automatic area surveillance modes and near-real-time target image processing, mission preplanning, retasking, mission simulation and autonomous navigational systems.

Falco comprises a ground control station (GCS), ground data terminal (GDT), ground support equipment (GSE) and four Falco air vehicles including payloads. The GCS manages mission planning and retasking, mission simulation for operator training, and mission rehearsal and playback.

The GCS operator can control the payloads and sensors while collecting data from the battlefield. The data collected can be evaluated and processed through C4I net during the mission planning phase enabling the aircraft's independent operation features. Being an unmanned air vehicle, the aircraft can be flown either manually or in automatic mode, including automatic take-off and landing operations.

*Orders and deliveries*
Finmeccanica's defence equipment manufacturer Galileo Avionics was awarded a contract by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in June 2008 to supply 12 to 20 Falco UAVs for three to four Falco systems.

Galileo Avionics has delivered the first Falco UAV system, which includes four UAVs and a ground control station. The second system is due for delivery in the near future and third is held as an option.

*Landing gear*
The fixed tricycle-type landing gear has been designed by Selex Galileo. It can avoid payload and structural damage caused to aircraft by heavy landings (decks landings or parachute recovery). It is also used in semi-prepared landing strip operations.

*Sensors*

*Sensors being used in the Falco UAV include a thermal imager, a colour TV camera, a spotter or a laser designator, NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) sensor, an electro optic sensor and an infrared sensor
.



*

"The Falco UAV flys at a height of 6,500m and can carry a maximum payload of 70kg."
The NBC sensors enable army personnel to detect any nuclear, biological and chemical attacks from enemies. 
*Electro-optic*
* sensors*
*



*
increase the range and vision of aircraft at low-light levels. They convert the light rays into electronic signals.

Infrared sensors are primarily used by ground vehicle operators for clear visibility of the battlefield. They capture infrared rays emitted by objects.

Selex is planning to incorporate electronic intelligence and communication intelligence features in the exisitng Falco fleet.

*Radar*
The radars being used by the Falco UAV include synthetic aperture radar (SAR), maritime surveillance radar (MSR), self-protection equipment and ESM (electronic support measures). The synthetic aperture radar deployed in Falco captures high-resolution images of the battlefield even in bad weather conditions, using highly modern digital electronics technology.

The electronic support measures radar helps Falco in threat detection, and examines the area to determine signals emitted from the surrounding radars. It is primarily used for examining the battlefield and provides the ground station commandars with relavant data.

*Performance*
The Falco UAV flys at a height of 6,500m and can carry a maximum payload of 70kg. It has the capacity to fly at a maximum speed of 60m/s with an endurance of eight to14 hours. It is powered by a single 49kW (65hp) gasoline engine to provide required electricity for the aircraft during its operation in air.

It is also building an upgrade kit to increase the UAV's payload capacity to 120kg and endurance to 18 hours with a maximum take-off weight of 750kg.

*Communications*
The ground data terminal (GDT) offers communication link range between the GCS and Falco air vehicle flying at a range of over 200km. It uses jam-resistant data transmission in real time. The GDT provides data, reports, annotated images and processed video clips of the battlefield to commanders at the ground control station.

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## nomi007



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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 146570


 source .. ?


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## nomi007

HRK said:


> source .. ?


express news

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## Kompromat

nomi007 said:


> express news



Crap news.

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## Golden Eagle 007

Does Pakistan has UAV's equiped with missliles?


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## WaLeEdK2

Golden Eagle 007 said:


> Does Pakistan has UAV's equiped with missliles?



People on this forum claim that yes Pakistan has armed drones but I'm not convinced considering we haven't seen any footage of armed drones being utilized against the ttp. I was hoping we would see some footage during zarb e azb but we haven't so far.


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## Golden Eagle 007

WaLeEdK2 said:


> People on this forum claim that yes Pakistan has armed drones but I'm not convinced considering we haven't seen any footage of armed drones being utilized against the ttp. I was hoping we would see some footage during zarb e azb but we haven't so far.


i have have read somewhere in this thread that pakistan used it on lal masjid.


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## WaLeEdK2

Golden Eagle 007 said:


> i have have read somewhere in this thread that pakistan used it on lal masjid.



Hmm that's interesting.


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## krash

Golden Eagle 007 said:


> i have have read somewhere in this thread that pakistan used it on lal masjid.



No, we didn't. At that time there's no chance, plus there were hundreds of cameras fixed on the area which is the last place suitable for a drone strike. That is as believable as unicorns, maybe less.


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## HRK

krash said:


> No, we didn't. At that time there's no chance, plus there were hundreds of cameras fixed on the area which is the last place suitable for a drone strike. That is as believable as unicorns, maybe less.



don't be so ignorant don't you know Pakistan even used TNW over Lal Masjid and Agosta subs were also used in Lal Masjid siege, its sale out media which let you know nothing ....

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## Golden Eagle 007

HRK said:


> don't be so ignorant don't you know Pakistan even used TNW over Lal Masjid and Agosta subs were also used in Lal Masjid siege, its sale out media which let you know nothing ....


whats agosta subs?

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## HRK

Golden Eagle 007 said:


> whats agosta subs?



Nishan plz ..... no need to hide behind new handle every now and then

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## Golden Eagle 007

HRK said:


> Nishan plz ..... no need to hide behind new handle every now and then


what are you talking about?


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Bratva

*A team from Paramount Group, South Africa Visits PAC and presented Sentinel-SLEO weaponized version souvenir to Chairman PAC









*

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## Kompromat

Bratva said:


> *A team from Paramount Group, South Africa Visits PAC and presented Sentinel-SLEO weaponized version souvenir to Chairman PAC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



This is manned AHRLAC - Advanced High-Performance Reconnaissance Light Aircraft

AHRLAC

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## black-hawk_101

Bratva said:


> *A team from Paramount Group, South Africa Visits PAC and presented Sentinel-SLEO weaponized version souvenir to Chairman PAC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Better than any Gunship helicopter.

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## nomi007



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## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 162502


So why not give more Falco-UQAAB-Burraq to Navy-Army other than Air Force and also to Paramilitary.


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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> Shahpar is a tactical unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed, developed and manufactured by Global Industrial Defence Solution (GIDS) for the Pakistan Armed Forces. The UAV can be deployed for real-time reconnaissance and surveillance, monitoring, target acquisition, situational awareness and disaster management missions.
> 
> The Shahpar UAV was displayed at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) at Karachi Expo Centre in Pakistan in November 2012. It was also demonstrated at the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) in Abu Dhabi, UAE, in February 2013.
> 
> The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) commissioned the first fleet of Shahpar UAVs into the Pakistan Army and Air Force in November 2013.
> 
> *Shahpar UAV design and features*
> The medium range Shahpar UAV was indigenously developed in co-operation with the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), a civilian controlled scientific and research organisation of Pakistan.
> 
> The vehicle has a length of 4.2m and wing span of 6.6m, and is configured with canard foreplanes positioned in front of the wings. The maximum take-off weight of the UAV is 480kg.
> View attachment 139367
> 
> 
> The UAV features autonomous take-off and landing capabilities. It can land on a runway independently or with the help of a manual pilot or parachute.
> 
> *Payloads attached to the Shahpar UAV*
> Shahpar can be integrated with a variety of payloads to execute reconnaissance and surveillance missions during day and night environments. The vehicle is capable of carrying an optical payload of about 50kg.
> 
> Other payloads aboard the vehicle include mission planning, management and control, accurate lateral and longitudinal trajectory control, full mission debriefing and simulation, built-in data exploitation and dissemination systems.
> 
> The vehicle is also equipped with an autonomous global positioning system (GPS) based tracking and control system, with an option for manual control channel. It can carry additional payloads based on customer requirements.
> 
> The UAV has significantly reduced radar cross section (RCS) and features military standard hardware to a level of Environmental Standard 810F. It supports Motion Imagery Standards Board (MISB) compliant video format.
> 
> *Sensors of the UAV from GIDS*
> The Shahpar UAV is equipped with the latest airborne imaging equipment (AIE), Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor turret that supports the improved local security and mobility of the UAV. The sensor systems include a high end thermal imaging camera, low-light and near infrared (IR) TV, and an eye safe laser range finder (LRF) with a range of around 20km.
> 
> The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera, and image processing system to provide extended visibility in harsh weather conditions.
> 
> "The UAV is also fitted with Erica Plus, a high definition enhanced reconnaissance IR camera."
> The electro-optical (EO) / IR sensors allow Shahpar to provide the commanders with geo referenced and geo pointing imagery of terrestrial targets. The UAV transmits the captured data to the ground control station through the real-time data link with a range of 250km.
> 
> *Engine and performance
> View attachment 139368
> *
> The UAV is powered by a pusher-type four-stroke Rotax 912 ULS engine with four cylinders. The engine produces a power of 100hp.
> 
> Shahpar can fly at a cruise speed of 150kph (81kts) and can continuously operate for more than seven hours. The maximum operating altitude of the drone is 5,000m.
> 
> *Key players involved with the Shahpar UAV development and manufacturing*
> The sensor systems of the UAV were built by Advanced Engineering Research Organization (AERO), a GIDS company, at its manufacturing plant near Islamabad. Another GIDS company, Xpert Engineering Services manufactured most of the components and payload systems of the UAV.


*Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor* 
*




*

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## nomi007

*burraq



*

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## zaid butt

nomi007 said:


> *burraq
> View attachment 179193
> *


is these are missiles or something else

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## nomi007

zaid butt said:


> is these are missiles or something else


gifts hampers for talibans

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## Ray_of_Hope

nomi007 said:


> gifts hampers for talibans
> View attachment 179385


Is this real that burraq can carry FT5???

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## razgriz19

war khan said:


> Is this real that burraq can carry FT5???

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## Ray_of_Hope

razgriz19 said:


>


How r these missiles guided to their targets???Laser guidance or Tv???

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## razgriz19

war khan said:


> How r these missiles guided to their targets???Laser guidance or Tv???


i believe gps guided
kinda like JDAMs

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## VelocuR

nomi007 said:


> *Zumr-I (EP) multi sensor*
> *
> View attachment 178143
> *




Video sensor doesn't look clear to me, it is low quality? Can improve to high quality for better visual?

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## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

HAIDER said:


> Today first time Pak army used US predator on Lal Masjid. Which is surprise that Pakistan has this world most advance UAV. Anyone has further info about this UAV in Pak army ?how many? and when Pak got these UAV


Not sure...

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## nomi007



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## LonE_WolF



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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> *burraq
> View attachment 179193
> *


ohhhhhhhhhhhh finally our duddo drone loaded with some weapon

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## nomi007

* When suspected Chinese-made combat UAV crashed rainbow 3 *
According to foreign media reports, local time on January 27, a suspected Chinese-made CH-3 (Rainbow -3) UAV in Borno State in northeastern Nigeria region crashed, the aircraft was probably being executed counter-insurgency task.
Rainbow -3 (CH-3) UAV by the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation independent research and development, is an unmanned aircraft by radio remote control device or program control device manipulation itself.

Rainbow -3 main medium-range UAV UAV systems and equipment constitute include: medium-range unmanned aerial vehicles, ground stations and car remote telemetry ground support equipment. Rainbow -3 UAV uses a piston engine, the farthest range can reach 2400 km, cruising time up to 12 hours, during which no oil. The aircraft is equipped with camera, camera and other devices can be used as reconnaissance aircraft.

Rainbow -3 wheeled autonomous UAV landing, takeoff weight of 640 kg, 60 kg load capacity, flight time from 12 hours to 15 hours at an altitude of 5000 meters, the farthest range 2400 km. This series of performance indicators show that the rainbow to the international level of similar drone UAV.

*reason of posting in paf uav discussion to save info of ch-3 burraq*

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## zeeshanvita

nomi007 said:


> * When suspected Chinese-made combat UAV crashed rainbow 3 *
> According to foreign media reports, local time on January 27, a suspected Chinese-made CH-3 (Rainbow -3) UAV in Borno State in northeastern Nigeria region crashed, the aircraft was probably being executed counter-insurgency task.
> Rainbow -3 (CH-3) UAV by the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation independent research and development, is an unmanned aircraft by radio remote control device or program control device manipulation itself.
> 
> Rainbow -3 main medium-range UAV UAV systems and equipment constitute include: medium-range unmanned aerial vehicles, ground stations and car remote telemetry ground support equipment. Rainbow -3 UAV uses a piston engine, the farthest range can reach 2400 km, cruising time up to 12 hours, during which no oil. The aircraft is equipped with camera, camera and other devices can be used as reconnaissance aircraft.
> 
> Rainbow -3 wheeled autonomous UAV landing, takeoff weight of 640 kg, 60 kg load capacity, flight time from 12 hours to 15 hours at an altitude of 5000 meters, the farthest range 2400 km. This series of performance indicators show that the rainbow to the international level of similar drone UAV.
> 
> *reason of posting in paf uav discussion to save info of ch-3 burraq*
> 
> View attachment 187327
> View attachment 187328
> View attachment 187329
> View attachment 187330
> 
> 
> View attachment 187331


Wrong section..


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## razgriz19

zeeshanvita said:


> Wrong section..



not a wrong section, Burraq is CH-3
so its very relevant

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## zeeshanvita

razgriz19 said:


> not a wrong section, Burraq is CH-3
> so its very relevant


It is CH3 made by China and the crash took place in Nigeria so how is it relevant...Begani shaadi ma abdullah dewana..

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## nomi007

zeeshanvita said:


> It is CH3 made by China and the crash took place in Nigeria so how is it relevant...Begani shaadi ma abdullah dewana..


yr tu be lull hai

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## Menace2Society

Are drones weaponized yet?

Why is this taking so long!

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## Najam Khan

Menace2Society said:


> Are drones weaponized yet?
> Why is this taking so long!



Its a sensitive technology and require too much expertise (read R&D). Although modular technology is in place for sensors (and lots of off-the-shelve components) but the basic issues related to avionics and air frame limitations take quite good time. Once a basic combat/flight profile is finished, there comes the testing part....and that so far hasn't become our friend in drones technology.

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## black-hawk_101

LonE_WolF said:


> View attachment 185767



So Falco is the size of Alto.



nomi007 said:


> * When suspected Chinese-made combat UAV crashed rainbow 3 *
> According to foreign media reports, local time on January 27, a suspected Chinese-made CH-3 (Rainbow -3) UAV in Borno State in northeastern Nigeria region crashed, the aircraft was probably being executed counter-insurgency task.
> Rainbow -3 (CH-3) UAV by the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation independent research and development, is an unmanned aircraft by radio remote control device or program control device manipulation itself.
> 
> Rainbow -3 main medium-range UAV UAV systems and equipment constitute include: medium-range unmanned aerial vehicles, ground stations and car remote telemetry ground support equipment. Rainbow -3 UAV uses a piston engine, the farthest range can reach 2400 km, cruising time up to 12 hours, during which no oil. The aircraft is equipped with camera, camera and other devices can be used as reconnaissance aircraft.
> 
> Rainbow -3 wheeled autonomous UAV landing, takeoff weight of 640 kg, 60 kg load capacity, flight time from 12 hours to 15 hours at an altitude of 5000 meters, the farthest range 2400 km. This series of performance indicators show that the rainbow to the international level of similar drone UAV.
> 
> *reason of posting in paf uav discussion to save info of ch-3 burraq*
> 
> View attachment 187327
> View attachment 187328
> View attachment 187329
> View attachment 187330
> 
> 
> View attachment 187331



So Nigeria is buying it? Why we also sell them other UAVs which we make for cheap. I think we should do that in Asia and Africa........

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## nomi007

black-hawk_101 said:


> So Falco is the size of Alto.
> 
> 
> 
> So Nigeria is buying it? Why we also sell them other UAVs which we make for cheap. I think we should do that in Asia and Africa........


they directly purchase from china
we need to offer muslim countries shshpar uav

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## black-hawk_101

So Nigeria is now buying which is quite good


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## nomi007

*WIndowsXP, can't controller your CASC CH-3 and CH-4 combat UAVs without it.*

Hmmmm, still running Windows XP huh, this might explain the recent crash. *Blue-screen*-of-death much?

*















*
Photographs emerged on social media websites on 27 January showing a CASC CH-3 (or improved CH-3A) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that had purportedly crashed in the northeastern Nigerian state of Borno.

Although operated by *Pakistan*, the CH-3 was not previously reported to be in service with Nigeria or neighboring countries.

While the photographs show the UAV being inspected by African men, the claim that the CH-3 came down in Nigeria remains unconfirmed.

Two guided munitions can be seen on the upside-down aircraft; one appears to be an AR-1 laser-guided missile, while the other may be an FT-5: a small Chinese guided bomb that was designed for use with UAVs.
ch-4 our next ucav





*conclusion : urgent need to upgrade of OS xp to 7*
*@Windjammer*
@Oscar
plz give ur expert opnion
*
*

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## wiseone2

nomi007 said:


> *WIndowsXP, can't controller your CASC CH-3 and CH-4 combat UAVs without it.*
> 
> *conclusion : urgent need to upgrade of OS xp to 7*
> *@Windjammer*
> @Oscar
> plz give ur expert opnion



try Linux

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## shaheenmissile

Thats just stupid running such Important equipment on the least reliable Operating system. What were the Chinese thinking?

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> *WIndowsXP, can't controller your CASC CH-3 and CH-4 combat UAVs without it.*
> 
> Hmmmm, still running Windows XP huh, this might explain the recent crash. *Blue-screen*-of-death much?
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Photographs emerged on social media websites on 27 January showing a CASC CH-3 (or improved CH-3A) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that had purportedly crashed in the northeastern Nigerian state of Borno.
> 
> Although operated by *Pakistan*, the CH-3 was not previously reported to be in service with Nigeria or neighboring countries.
> 
> While the photographs show the UAV being inspected by African men, the claim that the CH-3 came down in Nigeria remains unconfirmed.
> 
> Two guided munitions can be seen on the upside-down aircraft; one appears to be an AR-1 laser-guided missile, while the other may be an FT-5: a small Chinese guided bomb that was designed for use with UAVs.
> ch-4 our next ucav
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *conclusion : urgent need to upgrade of OS xp to 7*
> *@Windjammer*
> @Oscar
> plz give ur expert opnion



Embraers E-175 have Windows 95 as their operating system, whats your point?
These things are not connected to internet. They only do what they're design to do, and so they work really well in that role.


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## nomi007

razgriz19 said:


> Embraers E-175 have Windows 95 as their operating system, whats your point?
> These things are not connected to internet. They only do what they're design to do, and so they work really well in that role.


bro OS is different thing
blue screen is major issue in xp



wiseone2 said:


> try Linux


why not win7 64bit


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## Bilal.

nomi007 said:


> bro OS is different thing
> blue screen is major issue in xp
> 
> 
> why not win7 64bit



It's a Chinese flavour of Linux with XP like UI.


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## nomi007

Bilal. said:


> It's a Chinese flavour of Linux with XP like UI.


na chawalan mar


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## Bilal.

nomi007 said:


> na chawalan mar



Ask any knowledgeable Chinese member.

@Beast @cirr @Martian2 @ChineseTiger1986

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## wiseone2

nomi007 said:


> bro OS is different thing
> blue screen is major issue in xp
> 
> 
> why not win7 64bit



There are video encoders and set top boxes that run on Windows.
i am yet to see any safety critical systems run on Windows.

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## nomi007

Rotax 912 ULS engine rated at 100hp

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## nomi007

another achievement

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## NaMaloom

nomi007 said:


> *WIndowsXP, can't controller your CASC CH-3 and CH-4 combat UAVs without it.*
> 
> Hmmmm, still running Windows XP huh, this might explain the recent crash. *Blue-screen*-of-death much?
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Photographs emerged on social media websites on 27 January showing a CASC CH-3 (or improved CH-3A) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that had purportedly crashed in the northeastern Nigerian state of Borno.
> 
> Although operated by *Pakistan*, the CH-3 was not previously reported to be in service with Nigeria or neighboring countries.
> 
> While the photographs show the UAV being inspected by African men, the claim that the CH-3 came down in Nigeria remains unconfirmed.
> 
> Two guided munitions can be seen on the upside-down aircraft; one appears to be an AR-1 laser-guided missile, while the other may be an FT-5: a small Chinese guided bomb that was designed for use with UAVs.
> ch-4 our next ucav




Pakistan successfully tests first indigenous armed drone: ISPR - The Express Tribune 


And now this news comes through. So has Pakistan actually developed its own indigenous armed drone or has China supplied the CH-3 to both Nigeria and Pakistan, which Pakistan just tested according to the link I just posted. They both look exactly the same. I am so confused.

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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> another achievement



This plane also participated last year in the Solar Category of the Design, Build and Fly competition at GIK Institute.

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1113807645302927

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## Sine Nomine

Purpose of This Article is to remove backwardness of some Folks,who think every thing in Pakistan is coming in crates and later assembled there.As engine is concerned several International firms are offering JV,but right know importing engine is cost effective as compared to JV because there is no program for bigger systems.Pakistan is manufacturing small drones from 1980's.NESCOM and local firms have exported hardware worth millions every year.

Ababeel (Small Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
Ababeel III (Target Drone),developed by Albadeey Technologies.
Aerobot (Various research purposes), developed by Pakistan Aerospace.
Bazz UAV (Target Drone), developed by Technocrafts.
Baaz UAV (large) (Large Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
Border Eagle (Surveillance Drone),developed by Integrated Dynamics.
NESCOM Burraq (Combat drone developed by NESCOM).
Explorer UAV (Civilian UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Falco UAV (Version of Italian drone built by PAC under licence.)
Firefly UAV (Rocket Propelled UAV), under development by Integrated Dynamics.
Flamingo UAV (Medium Range UAV), Reconnaissance Drone built by SATUMA.
FST UAV(Full Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
GIDS Shahpar, developed by GIDS.
Hawk MK-V UAV, developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Hornet UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
HST UAV (Half Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
HUMA I (Remote Sensing), developed by Integrated Defence Systems.
Jasoos (Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Jasoos II (Bravo +), (Tactical Range Reconnaissance), developed by SATUMA.
Jumbo Bazz (Larger Version of Bazz), developed by Technocrafts.
Mini Electric UAV (Silent UAV), developed by Technocrafts.
Mukhbaar (Short Range Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Nishan MK-II (High-Speed Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Nishan TJ-1000 (Jet-Powered Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Rover UAV (Civilian Scientific Data Gatherer), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Satuma [URL='http://www.satuma.com.pk/Detail.aspx?ProdID=2']Tactical Range UAV - Jasoos II (Bravo+)[/URL]
Satuma Mini UAV - Stingray
Shadow MK-II (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Shooting Star UAV (High Speed Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Stingray UAV (Mini UAV), developed by SATUMA.
Tornado UAV (Decoy UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Tunder SR (Short Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Tunder LR (Long Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
Uqab UAV (Real Time Reconnaissance), developed by ACES.
Uqab-II (Naval Variant of the Uqab), Pakistan Navy has inducted first squadron.
Vector UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Vision MK-I (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Vision MK-II (Larger version of MK-I), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Aircraft Manufacturing Factory 
License production of Falco UAV and some sub-systems for TAI Anka
Albadeey Technologies - UAV, Target Drones, ground station, flying training
:..Welcome to [SATUMA]..:
Integrated Defence Systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.aerobot.ch/(JV with a local firm)
Aero-bot - Buy Uav Product on Alibaba.com
Introduction - :::... ID Aero Space ...:::
:: GIDS - Empowering the World ::
NESCOM
@Horus @Windjammer @Manticore @Major Shaitan Singh @levina @Zarvan @Pomegranate @syedali73 @Bornubus @Magnet @nair @SpArK

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## That Guy

wiseone2 said:


> There are video encoders and set top boxes that run on Windows.
> i am yet to see any safety critical systems run on Windows.


Windows is actually quite safe if you know what you're doing, despite what some may thing. While Linux/Unix are generally considered the safest, it's not uncommon for Windows to be used instead.


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## VelocuR

Interesting, Window XP can't be hacked?


----------



## raazh

VelocuR said:


> Interesting, Window XP can't be hacked?


You thinking of Hacking an offline computer running win XP from Canada ??


----------



## Zibago

VelocuR said:


> Interesting, Window XP can't be hacked?


Joke of the century


----------



## nomi007

WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THIS ERROR SHOWS DURING BURRAQ FLIGHT

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## kurup

قناص said:


> Purpose of This Article is to remove backwardness of some Folks,who think every thing in Pakistan is coming in crates and later assembled there.As engine is concerned several International firms are offering JV,but right know importing engine is cost effective as compared to JV because there is no program for bigger systems.Pakistan is manufacturing small drones from 1980's.NESCOM and local firms have exported hardware worth millions every year.
> 
> Ababeel (Small Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
> Ababeel III (Target Drone),developed by Albadeey Technologies.
> Aerobot (Various research purposes), developed by Pakistan Aerospace.
> Bazz UAV (Target Drone), developed by Technocrafts.
> Baaz UAV (large) (Large Scale Target Drone), developed by PAC
> Border Eagle (Surveillance Drone),developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> NESCOM Burraq (Combat drone developed by NESCOM).
> Explorer UAV (Civilian UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Falco UAV (Version of Italian drone built by PAC under licence.)
> Firefly UAV (Rocket Propelled UAV), under development by Integrated Dynamics.
> Flamingo UAV (Medium Range UAV), Reconnaissance Drone built by SATUMA.
> FST UAV(Full Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
> GIDS Shahpar, developed by GIDS.
> Hawk MK-V UAV, developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Hornet UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> HST UAV (Half Scale Trainer UAV), developed by SATUMA.
> HUMA I (Remote Sensing), developed by Integrated Defence Systems.
> Jasoos (Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
> Jasoos II (Bravo +), (Tactical Range Reconnaissance), developed by SATUMA.
> Jumbo Bazz (Larger Version of Bazz), developed by Technocrafts.
> Mini Electric UAV (Silent UAV), developed by Technocrafts.
> Mukhbaar (Short Range Reconnaissance Drone), developed by SATUMA.
> Nishan MK-II (High-Speed Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Nishan TJ-1000 (Jet-Powered Target Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Rover UAV (Civilian Scientific Data Gatherer), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Satuma Tactical Range UAV - Jasoos II (Bravo+)
> Satuma Mini UAV - Stingray
> Shadow MK-II (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Shooting Star UAV (High Speed Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
> Stingray UAV (Mini UAV), developed by SATUMA.
> Tornado UAV (Decoy UAV), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Tunder SR (Short Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
> Tunder LR (Long Range Target Drone), developed by SATUMA.
> Uqab UAV (Real Time Reconnaissance), developed by ACES.
> Uqab-II (Naval Variant of the Uqab), Pakistan Navy has inducted first squadron.
> Vector UAV (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Vision MK-I (Surveillance Drone), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Vision MK-II (Larger version of MK-I), developed by Integrated Dynamics.
> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Aircraft Manufacturing Factory
> License production of Falco UAV and some sub-systems for TAI Anka
> Albadeey Technologies - UAV, Target Drones, ground station, flying training
> :..Welcome to [SATUMA]..:
> Integrated Defence Systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> http://www.aerobot.ch/(JV with a local firm)
> Aero-bot - Buy Uav Product on Alibaba.com
> Introduction - :::... ID Aero Space ...:::
> :: GIDS - Empowering the World ::
> NESCOM
> @Horus @Windjammer @Manticore @Major Shaitan Singh @levina @Zarvan @Pomegranate @syedali73 @Bornubus @Magnet @nair @SpArK



Please post pictures of all these UAVs as well .


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## Sine Nomine

nomi007 said:


> WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THIS ERROR SHOWS DURING BURRAQ FLIGHT


In that case it's on board computer will fly it back to base and land it autonomously....

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## nomi007

قناص said:


> In that case it's on board computer will fly it back to base and land it autonomously....


bro sweet dreams

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


>


*@Windjammer *
bro kindly post other uav images which was presented

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## nomi007

Pakistan try to sell burraq to Jordon and Saudi Arabia
who are fighting against ISIS

burraq role war against terrorism
nice article
@*araz*
*



*

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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> *@Windjammer *
> bro kindly post other uav images which was presented

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


>


thanks bro
bro some hand launch uavs were also present can u upload them

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## nomi007

one of the best image i ever see of burraq




Pakistan indigenously made 'BURRAQ' drone armed with Pakistani made 'BURQ' Laser guided air to ground missiles.Burq missile can hit their target with pin point accuracy and this missile has ability to destroy fixed or fast moving target on the ground.

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## nomi007

which sensor is in canopy?
can any senior member explain

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## Kompromat

Synthetic App radar

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 208195
> 
> which sensor is in canopy?
> can any senior member explain


PicoSAR most likely..

Request Rejected

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## Umair Nawaz

kurup said:


> Please post pictures of all these UAVs as well .


use google

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## aziqbal

Burraq and it's twin missiles is a great addition to pakistan military 

Finally we have a drone which can hit fixed and moving targets

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## Najam Khan

Falco XN have been extensively employed in operation Zarb-e-Azb. Below are some photos from an operational base.

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## Viper0011.

Víðarr said:


> I know, I know, I was only giving you the line @SvenSvensonov (Kai, my husband) would have taken. He doesn't typically validate these types of things, it's not necessary since the information is public anyways.
> 
> He absolutely wouldn't speak about SATCOM protocols though, not at all.
> 
> You can ask Kai when he's available, I can guarantee you'll get the same answers from him.



 Thank you ma'am. You blew this out of the proportion again but its ok. No one asked for the "protocols", they are super confidential in nature. What we wondered is if the USN has adapted more Windows based platforms from where it used to be. There is nothing confidential in that. I can try to find it myself. Bu thank you.


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## Irfan Baloch

can we take USN discussion in the correct section and thread please?
if in doubt please look at the subject for reference

many thanks

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## Irfan Baloch

Umair Nawaz said:


> use google


there is a thread on that already and many posts listed the state and private companies making those drones not sure his post is just naughty or innocent

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## kurup

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is a thread on that already and many posts listed the state and private companies making those drones not sure his post is just naughty or innocent



Which thread ??

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## [TR]AHMET

nomi007 said:


> one of the best image i ever see of burraq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan indigenously made 'BURRAQ' drone armed with Pakistani made 'BURQ' Laser guided air to ground missiles.Burq missile can hit their target with pin point accuracy and this missile has ability to destroy fixed or fast moving target on the ground.




Good job Pakistan you are very fast and confident on the military projects, Trials on the platforms important but fast solutions more important than trials i think, especially in those areas. So Turkey still dealing to do somethings about UAVs like tests developing etc. but we haven't tested any armed UAV so far. Btw we need armed uav immediately.

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## nomi007

[TR]AHMET said:


> Good job Pakistan you are very fast and confident on the military projects, Trials on the platforms important but fast solutions more important than trials i think, especially in those areas. So Turkey still dealing to do somethings about UAVs like tests developing etc. but we haven't tested any armed UAV so far. Btw we need armed uav immediately.


turkey also need ucav as well
it is better for turkey purchase our ucav 
than we will consider T-129 attack helo

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## [TR]AHMET

nomi007 said:


> turkey also need ucav as well
> it is better for turkey purchase our ucav
> than we will consider T-129 attack helo



What is the capability of this UCAV bro, as range, load capacity and max altitude ?


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## nomi007

search whole discussion u will find capabilities


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## Daikhlotv

wow!!!!


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## fatman17

Falco


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## black-hawk_101

PN should have at least 30 BURRAQ for day n night coastal operations. Keeping close eyes on smuggling through coast.


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## nwmalik

Why are we not using them over karachi for survelliance?


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## nomi007

*Breaking News*
Today nationalinterest.org reported that 'The transfer of 15 reconnaissance 
UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles)
are also under way to Pakistan'
most probably
its
*AAI RQ-7 Shadow*


----------



## Kompromat

[TR]AHMET said:


> What is the capability of this UCAV bro, as range, load capacity and max altitude ?


 
12 hr endurance, 16,000ft flight ceiling, data link with mobile command and control, SAR sensors and EOTS. It can be operated from makeshift runways.

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## [TR]AHMET

Horus said:


> 12 hr endurance, 16,000ft flight ceiling, data link with mobile command and control, SAR sensors and EOTS. It can be operated from makeshift runways.



thanks for the informations dear Horus, i searched about Buraq UCAV but i didn't find enough informations before.

Those capabilities enough for Pakistan later on you will improve it is capability i think. But if we get Buraq UCAV right now we cant use it at south east of Turkey because of mountainous terrain. So We need more flight ceiling.

I hope our engineers working with Pakistan for teach each other. Because Both country needs fast and effective solutions for their regions.

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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> *Breaking News*
> Today nationalinterest.org reported that 'The transfer of 15 reconnaissance
> UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles)
> are also under way to Pakistan'
> most probably
> its
> *AAI RQ-7 Shadow*



US is not providing RQ-7 but Scan Eagle UAV

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## krash

[TR]AHMET said:


> thanks for the informations dear Horus, i searched about Buraq UCAV but i didn't find enough informations before.
> 
> Those capabilities enough for Pakistan later on you will improve it is capability i think. But if we get Buraq UCAV right now we cant use it at south east of Turkey because of mountainous terrain. So We need more flight ceiling.
> 
> *I hope our engineers working with Pakistan for teach each other. Because Both country needs fast and effective solutions for their regions.*



Pretty sure they already are. Wouldn't be surprising if some stuff in this bird was taken/learnt from the Turks. Also,

Pakistan builds parts for Turkey drones



HRK said:


> US is not providing RQ-7 but Scan Eagle UAV
> 
> View attachment 221609



I believe we already have the RQ-7 Shadow? There was much criticism of the deal as well back then.

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## Kompromat

[TR]AHMET said:


> thanks for the informations dear Horus, i searched about Buraq UCAV but i didn't find enough informations before.
> 
> Those capabilities enough for Pakistan later on you will improve it is capability i think. But if we get Buraq UCAV right now we cant use it at south east of Turkey because of mountainous terrain. So We need more flight ceiling.
> 
> I hope our engineers working with Pakistan for teach each other. Because Both country needs fast and effective solutions for their regions.



Pakistan holds nothing from Turkey. These UCAVs are very basic, yet they titled the battle in Tirah last month in our favor by not only providing outstanding ISR but also by engaging the Taliban with lethal force when needed.

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## HRK

krash said:


> I believe we already have the RQ-7 Shadow? There was much criticism of the deal as well back then.



there were rumours but not confirm report about RQ-7

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## Kompromat

HRK said:


> US is not providing RQ-7 but Scan Eagle UAV
> 
> View attachment 221609



Scan Eagles are going to be great asset. Is it for the Army or Navy?

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## HRK

Horus said:


> Scan Eagles are going to be great asset. Is it for the Army or Navy?



can't say for sure but most probably for Navy .... as Army & Airforce already have Burraq Shahpar & Falco sys. available to them ....

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## Kompromat

HRK said:


> can't say for sure but most probably for Navy .... as Army & Airforce already have Burraq Shahpar & Falco sys. available to them ....



The cutters we are getting are also able to carry Scan Eagles.

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## nomi007

HRK said:


> US is not providing RQ-7 but Scan Eagle UAV
> 
> View attachment 221609

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## nomi007

kpk police is using this ugv

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## zindapak

nomi007 said:


> one of the best image i ever see of burraq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan indigenously made 'BURRAQ' drone armed with Pakistani made 'BURQ' Laser guided air to ground missiles.Burq missile can hit their target with pin point accuracy and this missile has ability to destroy fixed or fast moving target on the ground.


awesome


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## nomi007

i was expecting
*GIDS Shahpar*
in paris airshow

we miss a great opportunity 

GIDS Shahpar
is cost effective than many western uavs

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## nomi007




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## Stealth



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## fatman17

Interesting Chinese UAV concept 


Divine Eagle


This large high-altitude long-endurance (HALE) UAV has been under development at 601 Institute/SAC since the last decade as an "anti-stealth" AEW platform. The UAV features a novel twin fuselage design with twin large vertical tailfins and an extra-long main wing extending across the rear fuselage. It also has a small canard wing connecting the head sections of twin fuselages in order to maintain the structural integrity of the UAV. A SATCOM antenna is expected to be installed inside the head bulge on the port side. The UAV is thought to be powered by a medium-thrust turbofan engine (WS-11 or Russian/Ukrainian origin?) located above the main wing and between the two vertical tainfins. As an AEW platform Divine Eagleis expected to have multiple conformal radar antenna arrays installed along the forward fuselages as well as the leading edge of the forward canard wing. The VHF meter wave radar is capable of detecting stealth aircraft at a relatively long range but suffers from a lower accuracy. Therefore several Divine Eagles may fly ahead in a group formation while being controlled via datalink by the AWACS flying behind in a safe distance or by the ground station protected by the air defense unit. Together they act as an airborne multistatic radar system and are able to pick up the radar reflection signals of the same stealth aircraft from multiple directions. As the result the UAV can extend both the detecting range and accuracy of the AWACS against stealth aircraft. The design of Divine Eagleappear to share some similarity with the Russian Sukhoi S-62 concept which first appeared around 2000. It was reported that Russian assistance was sought during the initial development stage. A technology demonstrator (downsized?) was built by the spring 2015. Low speed taxi tests took place in May 2015. Some specifications (estimated): height 6m, length 14m, wingspan 35m, endurance >12hr, ceiling 18km. If successfully entering the service,Divine Eagle would become the first airborne anti-stealth radar system in the world and could be used to counter American F-22s, F-35s and B-2s.

- Last Updated 7/24/15

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## nomi007



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## airbus101

This is the first use of the Burraq in the WOT right


----------



## Kompromat

Officially yes.



airbus101 said:


> This is the first use of the Burraq in the WOT right


----------



## stalintom

I heard about *Jane's Defence. It is really horrible one*


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Pakistani personal with CH4

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## Zarbe Momin

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistani personal with CH4
> View attachment 269088


Pakistan should work on the large long range and high endurane time drone for navy to detect enemy submarines.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## 50cent

just collabrate with turkey they are far aheaD IN drone technology and have acces to latest european tech

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## nomi007




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## nomi007

*LUNA NG UAVs for Pakistan military.*

LUNA NG is based on the combat proven LUNA TUAS. Both are all-weather, easy to operate tactical unmanned aircraft systems (TUAS) for real-time, day and night, command and control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR).

Its range is more than 100 km with an endurance exceeding 12 hours, maintaining situational awareness around the clock by on-the-fly platform exchange.

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## Paksanity

nomi007 said:


> *LUNA NG UAVs for Pakistan military.*
> 
> LUNA NG is based on the combat proven LUNA TUAS. Both are all-weather, easy to operate tactical unmanned aircraft systems (TUAS) for real-time, day and night, command and control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR).
> 
> Its range is more than 100 km with an endurance exceeding 12 hours, maintaining situational awareness around the clock by on-the-fly platform exchange.



Afghan border watch perhaps. Required. Absolutely.


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## nomi007

closer look of luna uav


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## nomi007

Pakistan army must to consider this 
*CH-901 man-portable*, tube launched unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and loitering munition.









detail are given below


A Poly official said it has been in development for "several years" and that both versions have been acquired by China's People's Liberation Army. This official added that while "several friendly countries" have shown interest, there have been no foreign sales so far.

One operating system weighs 45 kg and consists of three UAVs, one launch tube and a laptop computer control system. It is man-portable or can be carried by a small SUV.

The 1.2 m length aircraft weighs 9 kg, flies at a speed of 150 km/hr and has an operating radius of 15 km or a search endurance of 120 minutes.

Its small search and tracking camera is able to detect targets out to 2 km. The electric motor is credited with "low noise" that helps concealment. The aircraft has a life span of 20 sorties or 10 years.

Poly officials declined to provide details about the warhead of the loitering munition version.


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## Oguzhan

I don't know whether you heared or not but Turkish president's daughter married with a company leader that leads UAV sector in Turkey.So Turkey will bet everything on this sector indeed. Anka,Tb2 and Karayel UAVs are active now and they can all cary ammunition.All of them can work 24 hours 30k feet. It maybe a good and cheap solution for **** brothers.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Crashed Pakistani UAV was 'on experimental flight'

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

21 June 2016

A Pakistani unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that crashed on 18th June near the city of Mianwali was on an "experimental flight", a Pakistani defence ministry official told IHS Jane's on 21 June.

No official comment has been made on either the type of UAV involved or the crash itself. However, the Pakistani official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, indicated that the crashed UAV - which has the appearance of a Chinese Wing-Loong unmanned combat aerial vehicle - was not among those regularly flown by the Pakistan Air Force, suggesting it may have been a newer platform that was still being tested


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## nomi007




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## nomi007

special diwali gift for our indian members
our future ucav

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## vizier

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan army must to consider this
> *CH-901 man-portable*, tube launched unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and loitering munition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> detail are given below
> 
> 
> A Poly official said it has been in development for "several years" and that both versions have been acquired by China's People's Liberation Army. This official added that while "several friendly countries" have shown interest, there have been no foreign sales so far.
> 
> One operating system weighs 45 kg and consists of three UAVs, one launch tube and a laptop computer control system. It is man-portable or can be carried by a small SUV.
> 
> The 1.2 m length aircraft weighs 9 kg, flies at a speed of 150 km/hr and has an operating radius of 15 km or a search endurance of 120 minutes.
> 
> Its small search and tracking camera is able to detect targets out to 2 km. The electric motor is credited with "low noise" that helps concealment. The aircraft has a life span of 20 sorties or 10 years.
> 
> Poly officials declined to provide details about the warhead of the loitering munition version.




This one would work fine against vbied attacks like a mini cruise missile having a longer arching reach than an anti tank missile. 

It should be used with quad copter uavs to detect incoming targets(vbied, mlrs) which dont have a sortie limitation and these tube launched uavs can finish the targets off from stand off range.

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## nomi007

is China or Pakistan developing ucav variant of K-8 trainer 
see the canopy


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## Windjammer



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## Saba Ali Malik

*PAF air strike leaves 12 terrorists dead in Khyber*
*At least 12 alleged terrorists were reportedly killed when PAF fighter jets targeted their hideouts in Rajgal of the Tirah Valley in the Khyber tribal region on Sunday.

Over a dozen hideouts were also destroyed during the air strikes that were launched over the area after a long pause. This was the second such air strike carried out by Pakistan Air Force in almost a week along the Pak-Afghan border.

Fighter jets started pounding the positions in the Tirah Valley, west of the city of Peshawar in the wee hours of Sunday, in ‘precision strikes’, after getting a tip-off about the presence of terrorists in the area.

The armed forces had launched a successful operation against the militants holed up in the Tirah Valley.

Tirah straddles Tora Bora, the valley that served as the last sanctuary of al Qaeda before its leadership escaped into Pakistan’s tribal region following the American invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

The forces had evicted the militants and taken full control of the valley. However, in some pockets of the valley, the militants still maintain their presence from where they launch sporadic attacks on checkpoints manned by security personnel.

*

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## nomi007

best cg of burraq

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 385104


Are drones part of parade


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Are drones part of parade


yes off-course


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> yes off-course


Flying or static


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## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> Flying or static



*Lolx Static on Trucks same like last time.*


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## Cool_Soldier

Static drone most probably would participate in Prade.

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## fatman17

What's this then? PS

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 385485
> 
> What's this then? PS



@Stealth is it a recent photo .... I mean during the full dress rehearsal for this year parade ...

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## OgaBoga

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 385104


cool..

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## Windjammer

*Falco surveillance drone becomes armed forces' key weapon*
Last Updated On *22 March,2017* 04:06 pm




The production of Falco Surveillance Drone was started in 2009.

KAMRA (Dunya News) – Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has moved one step ahead by manufacturing Falco Surveillance Drone which is equipped with latest technology, reported Dunya News on Wednesday.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra has played the key role in self-reliance of drone manufacturing, which is also a proof of its capabilities.

The production of Falco Surveillance Drone was started in 2009 in collaboration with Italy’s company Selex Galileo under technology transfer project at PAC Kamra.

The unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), also known as drone, can continue its fight 18 thousand feet above ground level for 14 hours with speed of 105 nautical miles per hour. Furthermore, it is equipped with latest camera, laser and infrared technology.

According to PAF officials, only few countries possess the technology that is being practiced at PAC Kamra. Its scientists and engineers have worked with great efficiency and success to strengthen country’s self-defense.

Defense experts have also said that Falco Surveillance Drone is one of the latest drones of the world, and it has been designed according to futuristic needs. The UAV will address surveillance and reconnaissance needs of PAF.

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## Rocky rock



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## Major 13625

Pakistan could develop cheap long range UAVs, By using them in great number they can suppress any air defense. They will provoke air defense missiles to be fired on them, they can also lure enemy fighters so that they could be ambushed.

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## nomi007

These days we hear a lot that Pakistan needs Drone Technology, but i am wondering if we really lack in Drone technology in presence of Integrated Dynamics, SATUMA and East and West.

Integrated Dynamic is a Karachi-based private company that specializes in UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle). It has several models developed already that are working in the field.

Similarly, The *SATUMA *lies 25 km out of Islamabad on the bank of river Soan with an engineering floor area of 5,000 Sq. ft. and a small airstrip for testing and evaluating scaled air frames, testing engines and other outdoor activities.

East-West provides alot of the sophisticated electronic devices that go into these UAVs to track terrorists. Today there is a growing ecosystem for robotics and UAVs, with work also being done on UUVs (underwater unmanned vehicles) and ground recon robots.

By the way, these Pakistani are doing pretty good job, as they were able to sell their UAVs to the US border patrol.

Here are few pictures of Pakistani Made Drones






The Tornado is a target and decoy UAV with a range of over 200 kilometres. It can reach speeds of up to 300 knots and can emit false radar signals to confuse enemy air defences.






The space at Integrated Dynamics, where UAV prototypes are designed and developed.






The Nishan MK-II is seen here against the backdrop of Shadow and Explorer UAVs. The Nishan has a wingspan of over 9 feet and is considered a high-speed aerial target or decoy. Its range is limited to 35 kilometres.






The Border Eagle is a surveillance UAV that comes equipped with both a still and video camera along with a chemical monitoring module.






The explorer is one of two advanced civilian UAV systems, offered by Integrated Dynamics. It has a 20-kilometre range, equipped with sensors suited for scientific research programmes.






The Shadow is also a surveillance UAV that has a speed of over 200 kilometres per hour and can operate within a 200-kilometre range.






The Rover is a civilian UAV typically, used for electronic news gathering and rapid information relay.






Integrated Dynamics also features ground station units that are used in combination with the UAV systems.






SATUMA Shot Range – Tunder SR






SATUMA UAV Half Scale Trainer – HST
















SATUMA Mini UAV – Stingray






SATUMA Short Range UAV – Mukhbar






SATUMA Tactical Range UAV – Jasoos II

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Pakistani RQ-11 Raven SUAV call sign '' GIDS Scout Mini UAV System ''*http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2017/04/photos-of-day-plan-marine-with-their.html*
*



*

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## Cornered Tiger

Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan

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## Zarvan



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cornered Tiger said:


> Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan


It's an optionally piloted vehicle (OPV). I believe this is one of Integrated Dynamic's programs, it has another OPV design as well.

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## Bossman

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's an optionally piloted vehicle (OPV). I believe this is one of Integrated Dynamic's programs, it has another OPV design as well.



Looks more like a Rutan Long EZ

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## TaimiKhan

Cornered Tiger said:


> Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan



The guys are from which air force ? This may give an idea what it is, but its something based on that russian design as pointed by Bossman, may be it is the Russian one.

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## Sinnerman108

What we lack in are satellites and advanced electronics.

A UAV is far more effective if you can control it beyond the line of sight in real time



nomi007 said:


> These days we hear a lot that Pakistan needs Drone Technology, but i am wondering if we really lack in Drone technology in presence of Integrated Dynamics, SATUMA and East and West.
> 
> Integrated Dynamic is a Karachi-based private company that specializes in UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle). It has several models developed already that are working in the field.
> 
> Similarly, The *SATUMA *lies 25 km out of Islamabad on the bank of river Soan with an engineering floor area of 5,000 Sq. ft. and a small airstrip for testing and evaluating scaled air frames, testing engines and other outdoor activities.
> 
> East-West provides alot of the sophisticated electronic devices that go into these UAVs to track terrorists. Today there is a growing ecosystem for robotics and UAVs, with work also being done on UUVs (underwater unmanned vehicles) and ground recon robots.
> 
> By the way, these Pakistani are doing pretty good job, as they were able to sell their UAVs to the US border patrol.
> 
> Here are few pictures of Pakistani Made Drones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tornado is a target and decoy UAV with a range of over 200 kilometres. It can reach speeds of up to 300 knots and can emit false radar signals to confuse enemy air defences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The space at Integrated Dynamics, where UAV prototypes are designed and developed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Nishan MK-II is seen here against the backdrop of Shadow and Explorer UAVs. The Nishan has a wingspan of over 9 feet and is considered a high-speed aerial target or decoy. Its range is limited to 35 kilometres.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> The Border Eagle is a surveillance UAV that comes equipped with both a still and video camera along with a chemical monitoring module.
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> The explorer is one of two advanced civilian UAV systems, offered by Integrated Dynamics. It has a 20-kilometre range, equipped with sensors suited for scientific research programmes.
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> The Shadow is also a surveillance UAV that has a speed of over 200 kilometres per hour and can operate within a 200-kilometre range.
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> The Rover is a civilian UAV typically, used for electronic news gathering and rapid information relay.
> 
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> 
> Integrated Dynamics also features ground station units that are used in combination with the UAV systems.
> 
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> 
> SATUMA Shot Range – Tunder SR
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> SATUMA UAV Half Scale Trainer – HST
> 
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> SATUMA Mini UAV – Stingray
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> SATUMA Short Range UAV – Mukhbar
> 
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> 
> SATUMA Tactical Range UAV – Jasoos II

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## Kompromat

Doesn't look ours. 



Cornered Tiger said:


> Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan

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## Dazzler

Horus said:


> Doesn't look ours.



Actually it is ours...

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## TaimiKhan

Dazzler said:


> Actually it is ours...



What is it for ? UAV or manned one and purpose ? The airforce guy is wearing the previous rank shoulder insignias of PAF, meaning its 4-5 years old or more pic. 

Shelved project ?

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## Dazzler

TaimiKhan said:


> What is it for ? UAV or manned one and purpose ? The airforce guy is wearing the previous rank shoulder insignias of PAF, meaning its 4-5 years old or more pic.
> 
> Shelved project ?



ID's strive to compete or better the NESCOM Burraq thats it. The project is pretty much alive at ID and was just disclosed at IDEAS 2016.

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## Bossman

TaimiKhan said:


> The guys are from which air force ? This may give an idea what it is, but its something based on that russian design as pointed by Bossman, may be it is the Russian one.


Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites is based out of California. None of these guys are PAF. It seems Integrated Dynamics borrowed Long EZ airframe design.

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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> The guys are from which air force ? This may give an idea what it is, but its something based on that russian design as pointed by Bossman, may be it is the Russian one.


Old IdS pic, the guy in white was their lead pilot. Owned a RC shop too.
He left because the owner:chief designer built something this guy said will not fly- owner persisted, machine crashed, he left.

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## sparten

Lots of rumours as to the Strategic UAV like Global Hawk under R&D. Any updates?

How good are the camera's and optics on these? From what I have read, some Army men are of the opinion that the Indians would freak out if they knew how good they were.

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## nomi007

ScanEagle's sensor

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## TaimiKhan

sparten said:


> Lots of rumours as to the Strategic UAV like Global Hawk under R&D. Any updates?
> 
> How good are the camera's and optics on these? From what I have read, some Army men are of the opinion that the Indians would freak out if they knew how good they were.


Pehlay aik decent MALE uav with attack capability tu bana lain, then next step.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

sparten said:


> Lots of rumours as to the Strategic UAV like Global Hawk under R&D. Any updates?
> 
> How good are the camera's and optics on these? From what I have read, some Army men are of the opinion that the Indians would freak out if they knew how good they were.


You might be referring to the MALE UAV being developed by AvDI at PAC.

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## Thunder.Storm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You might be referring to the MALE UAV being developed by AvDI at PAC.


Which one. Share pictures if possible. Thanks

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thunder.Storm said:


> Which one. Share pictures if possible. Thanks


No photos.

You can find the ACM mentioning and discussing it:

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You might be referring to the MALE UAV being developed by AvDI at PAC.


Or the Shahpar II at AWC.

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## raahaat7

sparten said:


> Lots of rumours as to the Strategic UAV like Global Hawk under R&D. Any updates?
> 
> How good are the camera's and optics on these? From what I have read, some Army men are of the opinion that the Indians would freak out if they knew how good they were.


Are the cameras made locally?


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Can burraq go undetected into enemies territory or it becomes visible on radar ???
Sevondly radar waves r reflected back from airframe, canopy and real combat aircraft also detected bcz of its own radar and IR signature 
But these issues are far less in small size drone so y not awc/nescom make stealthy drone if currently it is detected on radar is it too hard just like making 5th gen jet???


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## Safriz

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Can burraq go undetected into enemies territory or it becomes visible on radar ???
> Sevondly radar waves r reflected back from airframe, canopy and real combat aircraft also detected bcz of its own radar and IR signature
> But these issues are far less in small size drone so y not awc/nescom make stealthy drone if currently it is detected on radar is it too hard just like making 5th gen jet???


None of Pakistani drones are intended to go into enemy territory.

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## muhammadali233

Found this clip of downed/crashed UAS of PAF,Falco.It seems that it opened its chute never knew,looks to be intact.

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## Hammad ur Rehman

muhammadali233 said:


> Found this clip of downed/crashed UAS of PAF,Falco.It seems that it opened its chute never knew,looks to be intact.



*Singapore Airshow 2018: China’s Star Shadow stealth UAV aims to fly in 2019*
*Kelvin Wong, Singapore* - Jane's International Defence Review
06 February 2018





The Star Shadow unmanned combat air vehicle is expected to make its maiden flight in mid-2019. Source: IHS Markit/Kelvin Wong
Star UAV System Co Ltd, a Chengdu-based developer of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), has unveiled its export-oriented Star Shadow unmanned air vehicle (UCAV) concept at the Singapore Airshow 2018.

Specifically designed as a low-observable and highly survivable surveillance and strike platform, the Star Shadow is envisioned to have a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 4,000 kg and feature a truncated diamond-shaped airframe measuring an overall length of 7.3 m with sweptback outer wings that have a total span of 15 m. According to the company, this configuration offers radar cross section (RCS) characteristics in the range of 0.1 m².

Control surfaces are built into the trailing edges and upper sections of the fuselage and wings, with a pair of dorsally mounted, low observable engine intakes located on either side of the nose leading to similarly configured exhaust outlets towards the rear of the fuselage.

Take-off and recovery will be effected via conventional means, with the air vehicle fitted with a retractable undercarriage assembly comprising a twin wheeled nosewheel unit and single wheeled main units.

The Star Shadow will also feature a ventral payload bay that measures 2.5 m long, 0.76 m wide, and 0.7 m in depth, with a payload capacity of 400 kg. An as-yet unspecified range of sensors and weapons is being firmed up, although the company declined to provide details at present.

The Star Shadow will be powered by two indigenous TWS800 small turbofan engines developed by the Chengdu Chinese Academy of Sciences Aircraft Engine Co Ltd (CCAS Aircraft Engine), a company founded in October 2014 by a number of public and private enterprises, including the Chinese Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Engineering Thermophysics and the privately-owned Shaanxi Ligeance Mineral Resources Co Ltd.

We should work with them for our future MALE.


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## araz

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> *Singapore Airshow 2018: China’s Star Shadow stealth UAV aims to fly in 2019*
> *Kelvin Wong, Singapore* - Jane's International Defence Review
> 06 February 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Star Shadow unmanned combat air vehicle is expected to make its maiden flight in mid-2019. Source: IHS Markit/Kelvin Wong
> Star UAV System Co Ltd, a Chengdu-based developer of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), has unveiled its export-oriented Star Shadow unmanned air vehicle (UCAV) concept at the Singapore Airshow 2018.
> 
> Specifically designed as a low-observable and highly survivable surveillance and strike platform, the Star Shadow is envisioned to have a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 4,000 kg and feature a truncated diamond-shaped airframe measuring an overall length of 7.3 m with sweptback outer wings that have a total span of 15 m. According to the company, this configuration offers radar cross section (RCS) characteristics in the range of 0.1 m².
> 
> Control surfaces are built into the trailing edges and upper sections of the fuselage and wings, with a pair of dorsally mounted, low observable engine intakes located on either side of the nose leading to similarly configured exhaust outlets towards the rear of the fuselage.
> 
> Take-off and recovery will be effected via conventional means, with the air vehicle fitted with a retractable undercarriage assembly comprising a twin wheeled nosewheel unit and single wheeled main units.
> 
> The Star Shadow will also feature a ventral payload bay that measures 2.5 m long, 0.76 m wide, and 0.7 m in depth, with a payload capacity of 400 kg. An as-yet unspecified range of sensors and weapons is being firmed up, although the company declined to provide details at present.
> 
> The Star Shadow will be powered by two indigenous TWS800 small turbofan engines developed by the Chengdu Chinese Academy of Sciences Aircraft Engine Co Ltd (CCAS Aircraft Engine), a company founded in October 2014 by a number of public and private enterprises, including the Chinese Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Engineering Thermophysics and the privately-owned Shaanxi Ligeance Mineral Resources Co Ltd.
> 
> We should work with them for our future MALE.


Depends on a suitable engine. However the timeline is achievable.
A


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## Ahmet Pasha

PAF is taking steps in right direction. But when will HIT wake up??


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## Dazzler



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## Dazzler

CH-4s eliminating daesh in Iraq..

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## Bilal Khan 777

Cornered Tiger said:


> Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan



A brilliant PAF boy who is now dead.


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## Bossman

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> A brilliant PAF boy who is now dead.


He was not PAF. This picture has nothing to do with PAF and was discussed many years ago.


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## Arsalan

The slow pace/progress and minimum interest in UCAV is is bit difficult to understand. The war we are fighting and the resources we have, we should be really going for some good UCAVs from China and keep working hard on developing our own. They are perhaps among the best offensive weapons for the war we are fighting against terrorists in Afghan bordering regions.

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## Tank131

Well, it seems that PAF is either evaluating or already operating Wing Loong, so that will be a huge boon for them both in the Aghan theater and against India, as a drone with such endurance of up to 20hrs, it has loitering time and payload to deliver sustained CAS to troops and armor in Punjab as well as hunt terrorist in FATA and on Afghan border.


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## The-Hack

Anyone tells about this beauty......... is this Pakistan made UAV???









Tank131 said:


> Well, it seems that PAF is either evaluating or already operating Wing Loong, so that will be a huge boon for them both in the Aghan theater and against India, as a drone with such endurance of up to 20hrs, it has loitering time and payload to deliver sustained CAS to troops and armor in Punjab as well as hunt terrorist in FATA and on Afghan border.








Wing Loong or else???
with Pakistani flag


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## ziaulislam

The-Hack said:


> Anyone tells about this beauty......... is this Pakistan made UAV???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wing Loong or else???
> with Pakistani flag


i m no expert but looks like Photoshop

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## The-Hack

ziaulislam said:


> i m no expert but looks like Photoshop


OK, so the ultimate conclusion which i can assume from this, that don't rely on Facebook references



ziaulislam said:


> i m no expert but looks like Photoshop


i think this is a american predator series drone....... am i right sir???


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## Arsalan

The-Hack said:


> Anyone tells about this beauty......... is this Pakistan made UAV???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wing Loong or else???
> with Pakistani flag


Photoshop image!


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## Reichsmarschall

Arsalan said:


> Photoshop image!
> 
> View attachment 456564


which software is this?


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## FunkyGen

Arsalan said:


> The slow pace/progress and minimum interest in UCAV is is bit difficult to understand. The war we are fighting and the resources we have, we should be really going for some good UCAVs from China and keep working hard on developing our own. They are perhaps among the best offensive weapons for the war we are fighting against terrorists in Afghan bordering regions.


You're dead wrong Sir. We must be discussing HIT made guard post "Aaahan"... that is the most vital piece of tech. that we must utilize at the moment. Did I ever tell you it is air-conditioned? Well, now you know.


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## ziaulislam

The-Hack said:


> OK, so the ultimate conclusion which i can assume from this, that don't rely on Facebook references
> 
> 
> i think this is a american predator series drone....... am i right sir???


the deign doesn t make sense, i doubt its any UAV


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## The-Hack

ziaulislam said:


> the deign doesn t make sense, i doubt its any UAV


hahaha.......... OK, i got it
Totally Photoshop


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## ziaulislam

The-Hack said:


> hahaha.......... OK, i got it
> Totally Photoshop


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## The-Hack

ziaulislam said:


>


MQ-9






Global Hawk

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## OguzSenturk

Talarion

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## nomi007




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## Falcon26

nomi007 said:


>



What’s this? Please provide context and information with the pictures.

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## nomi007

Falcon26 said:


> What’s this? Please provide context and information with the pictures.


ScanEagle UAV


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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> ScanEagle UAV


base is not Pakistani its Philippines Air force base 
https://www.mintfo.com/security-def...rt-in-acquiring-state-of-the-art-drones/1968/

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> ScanEagle UAV


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## Falcon26

nomi007 said:


>



Why are you posting Filipino UAVs on this thread? That too without context? Stop confusing readers. 

Reported.

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## Tank131

Probably because Pakistan Navy also operates the Scan Eagle

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## Falcon26

Tank131 said:


> Probably because Pakistan Navy also operates the Scan Eagle



That might be but I find posting obscure picture with no details or information to be quite misleading and shady. Posters have a responsibility not to confuse other members. This particular poster kept on his behavior even when he was told to provide context to his pictures. He posted a Filipino drone in a Filipino base on a Pakistani drone discussion forum twice without providing any context. It’s infuriatingly annoying.

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## Muhammed45

Falcon26 said:


> That might be but I find posting obscure picture with no details or information to be quite misleading and shady. Posters have a responsibility not to confuse other members. This particular poster kept on his behavior even when he was told to provide context to his pictures. He posted a Filipino drone in a Filipino base on a Pakistani drone discussion forum twice without providing any context. It’s infuriatingly annoying.


Pakistan I scan eagle





Mas production line of Scan eagle drone, Iran

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> A brilliant PAF boy who is now dead.


I know the other guy, if my facial recognition is correct. Told the US educated head of ID that some design he made would not fly.. ID guy insisted, the design smashed into the ground and the fellow left ID. 
These are the days when ID was under a KFC in DHA Karachi and also involved in sourcing spares and computers from Israel.

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## Irfan Baloch

Falcon26 said:


> That might be but I find posting obscure picture with no details or information to be quite misleading and shady. Posters have a responsibility not to confuse other members. This particular poster kept on his behavior even when he was told to provide context to his pictures. He posted a Filipino drone in a Filipino base on a Pakistani drone discussion forum twice without providing any context. It’s infuriatingly annoying.


I agree with you but most posters would rather post pictures without even any relevance than to bother with any explanation I just gave up complaining

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## TOTUU

Wing Loong Ⅱ UAV

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## Safriz

Cornered Tiger said:


> Dont know What is this? Any one has any idea, Sir @fatman17 , @Windjammer , @Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , @Imran Khan


This looks like Shahpar in early days of development. They may be experimenting with drop tanks which arent there anymore in final design.


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## vizier

I wanted to share my ideas about next genration uavs and possible ucav air to air warfare scenarios. Instead of creating a separate thread I decided to share it here as a discussion topic for future contribution.

Currently ucavs are used almost extensively for air to ground roles and a2a is a researched topic with prototypes. A live exception is during gulf war there are some videos of usa predator uav launching stinger against mig25 but uav later shot down. The trend is going towards installing jet engines to current a2g uavs, make them stealthier but still in a defensive situation against other planes. Another approach is currently designed 6th gen. planes by making the pilotless version of the piloted design. The first one is an a2g role and the latter is a multirole design.

I think just for interceptor role uav concept can be diversified to include rocket-ramjet powered systems with certain cost-practicality advantages over the above popular concepts that everyone with the budget will aim to copy from usa.
Just an example of a sam system from the 50s is the bomarc sam that was aimed against possible soviet bombers
from extremely long ranges like 650kms(200km more than S400, somewhat same as S500).
missile flies at about 20km max altitude




Practicality: The solution should be non reliant on static-vulnurable airbases. Jumpjet engine would be both costly and its high thrust to weight ratio to lift the plane upwards can be a tradeoff by its high IR signature in close ranges. Actually a solution was found in ww2 which is to use landing skids instead of landing gears and launch the planes by dolly. Yes at that time dolly would jump back and could hit the plane back during takeoff but we are not in 40s and circuitry can time the release and make calculations pretty well. In ww2 me163 interceptor had the landing skid solution with most axis airbases destroyed and had limited success but considering the overwhelming allied airforce and limited production at late years of war we cant say it is unsuccessful in my opinion. Yes the popular argument is the plane becomes vulnurable after it lands but It is not in the gun era but cruise missile era. If the airbase is visible from public websites like gearth and dozens of missiles could be launched at the same target then an undisclosed flattened grass location close to enemy is less vulnurable than the airbase mentioned even if it is protected by latest sams.






Cost: The engine has no moving parts. It relies on speed. Rocket engine needs to be installed on the plane for takeoff until ramjet takes over but the example given above is 50s tech and could still go about 600km range. A simple design with fuselage and delta wings and ramjets with rocket take off it wont be costing much.

The new sensors like infrared focal plane array and a2a engagement systems, internal bays for ir guided short-medium range missiles is a must but to reduce costs bvr and radar engagement can be added in later versions if the uav is stealthy or fast enough to get close enough against other planes. For example Jjust a ground VHF radar needs to find the quadrant that F35 is flying in and guide the uav to those location for wvr engagement by the uav controlled from ground if not autonomous.

Another further option is I think rocket assisted takeoff under wings can be used and the space for the rocket engine now empty can be filled with ramjet fuel to increase effective range of the uav.






Effectiveness: There are some tradeoffs but advantages as well and in my opinion advantages can overcome the tradeoffs.

- It wont be maneuvrable and cant make dogfight as fighter planes do. This can be compensated with off boresight engagement sensor and lock on after launch ir guided a2a missiles.

- It was a mach 3 missile. Hitting it with a2a missiles would be difficult but possible especially with newer ramjet powered a2a missiles so I think this tradeoff can be compensated by improving the airframe making it more stealthy even if it reduces its speed. The engine has no moving parts so you dont need a supercomputer to design the inlets to hide the engine fans. if it flies at about 20-25km altitude and ramjet engine is carried above the wings it can be hidden from the radars of the enemy planes flying below. A body with a diamond cross section and V tail is a common knowledge to reduce the signature.

I just made a sketch with openvsp modifying the x15 rocket plane adding ramjets and V tail and modifying its body a bit to show what I mean as below. You can think of canopy as Ir sensor.











As a summary popular designs are ok for usa as they have the budget and the tech but for us alternatives need to be researched since we dont have the budget to copy everything they do and we are generally at the the threat of being at the recieving end of their bombers these days. The urgent demand is an effictive interceptor role over others since we are currently on the defensive and I think rocket-ramjet based designs would have advantages in this role.

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## Zarvan




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## Windjammer



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## ALi Rizwan

Oscar said:


> I know the other guy, if my facial recognition is correct. Told the US educated head of ID that some design he made would not fly.. ID guy insisted, the design smashed into the ground and the fellow left ID.
> These are the days when ID was under a KFC in DHA Karachi and also involved in sourcing spares and computers from Israel.


Sir the Design in Question is same as shown in Pic Shahpur type with Pilot Canopy.
This info was shared by someone in defence.pk


شاھین میزایل said:


> This looks like Shahpar in early days of development. They may be experimenting with drop tanks which arent there anymore in final design.


its ID (Integrated Dynamics) Karachi based private company. Different company. and its more of a optional pilot option then other thing else.


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## GriffinsRule

Too small to carry any useful load


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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> Too small to carry any useful load


it must be a replica or model .... I don't think its the original and working drone


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## Zarvan




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## GriffinsRule



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## BHarwana

Something very interesting.


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## JamD

BHarwana said:


> Something very interesting.
> 
> View attachment 522861


Hate to be "that guy" but this is frankly embarrassing. I would really like to know which stall this was on and then send them a lot of hate mail. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) was this integrated dynamics? I can expect such "shodian" from them.

This looks like a collection of cool aircraft buzzwords and a badly made 3d model on a poster. This is something you see in "poster design competitions" in colleges. It's better to wait for the next IDEAS and present something more polished than pushing out this embarrassing garbage. Thoroughly unprofessional.


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## Arsalan

Hey what up with Burraq?






I understand that with WL-II coming in they will be our primary UCAV but why should the weapons be taken off from Burraq? You are marketing it at an expo and wont want to take off those missiles unless it actually cannot support them at all. 

@Dazzler @HRK @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah any thoughts? @Slav Defence

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## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> Hey what up with Burraq?
> 
> View attachment 522909
> 
> 
> I understand that with WL-II coming in they will be our primary UCAV but why should the weapons be taken off from Burraq? You are marketing it at an expo and wont want to take off those missiles unless it actually cannot support them at all.
> 
> @Dazzler @HRK @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah any thoughts? @Slav Defence



Same weapon was being marketed by the OEM at Chinese pavilion. Could have caused some IPR issue i believe.

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## JohnWick

How many UCAV Pakistan have?


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## JohnWick

Dazzler said:


> Same weapon was being marketed by the OEM at Chinese pavilion. Could have caused some IPR issue i believe.


OEM 
And IPR abbreviation??


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## GriffinsRule

That is an epic marketing fail. Quite embarrassing.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> Same weapon was being marketed by the OEM at Chinese pavilion. Could have caused some IPR issue i believe.


Hmmm,, that makes sense. Since the Chinese company will want to display it as there product so PAC we had to change it. But why mentioned GIDS (as done by AW in his tweet, isnt this from NESCOM)

I will see if i can mention this to AW and perhaps he can explain it further.


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## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> Hmmm,, that makes sense. Since the Chinese company will want to display it as there product so PAC we had to change it. But why mentioned GIDS (as done by AW in his tweet, isnt this from NESCOM)
> 
> I will see if i can mention this to AW and perhaps he can explain it further.



The system is transferred to GIDS. NESCOM will focus on WL-II.



JohnWick said:


> OEM
> And IPR abbreviation??



OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer

IPR - Intellectual Property Rights

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## Zulfiqar

Arsalan said:


> Hmmm,, that makes sense. Since the Chinese company will want to display it as there product so PAC we had to change it. But why mentioned GIDS (as done by AW in his tweet, isnt this from NESCOM)
> 
> I will see if i can mention this to AW and perhaps he can explain it further.



GIDS is in essence NESCOM.

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## Tipu7

Arsalan said:


> I understand that with WL-II coming in they will be our primary UCAV but why should the weapons be taken off from Burraq? You are marketing it at an expo and wont want to take off those missiles unless it actually cannot support them at all.


Frankly, a UCAV of size of CH3 is of very limited potential. Its already limited loiter time, altitude and range reduce further by big margin when it carries on board weapon systems.
Burraq was developed from CH3 in an attempt to ensure learning related to operational utility of combat drones in asymmetric environment. Its strike missions during day and night times were more like test missions in real battlefield. We have gained precious experience from Burraq development, operational deployments and utility. 
Now, since we are moving forward with bigger and more capable UCAVs, I guess its better to use Burraq for role which suits it better. i.e battlefield recon.
Role of unmanned systems in PAF is going to enlarge and we will procure Chinese and domestic options for full filling those roles more efficiently.
Surprisingly, Navy is more inclined towards Turkish unmanned systems.

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## Arsalan

Tipu7 said:


> Frankly, a UCAV of size of CH3 is of very limited potential. Its already limited loiter time, altitude and range reduce further by big margin when it carries on board weapon systems.
> Burraq was developed from CH3 in an attempt to ensure learning related to operational utility of combat drones in asymmetric environment. Its strike missions during day and night times were more like test missions in real battlefield. We have gained precious experience from Burraq development, operational deployments and utility.
> Now, since we are moving forward with bigger and more capable UCAVs, I guess its better to use Burraq for role which suits it better. i.e battlefield recon.
> Role of unmanned systems in PAF is going to enlarge and we will procure Chinese and domestic options for full filling those roles more efficiently.
> Surprisingly, Navy is more inclined towards Turkish unmanned systems.


Still bro when you are trying to sell a weapon system you do dispaly its full potential. Wheather it is suited for carrying weapons or not, IF it can carry it have to be announced. There might be customers looking for that limited capability. The only thing that makes sense is what @Dazzler said, same system being marketed at Chinese stands as well so we just changed it at our end and will export as a recon UAV.

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## Tipu7

Arsalan said:


> Still bro when you are trying to sell a weapon system you do dispaly its full potential. Wheather it is suited for carrying weapons or not, IF it can carry it have to be announced. There might be customers looking for that limited capability. The only thing that makes sense is what @Dazzler said, same system being marketed at Chinese stands as well so we just changed it at our end and will export as a recon UAV.


Well, our people did three strange things.
1: They didn't allow our Mi35 to reach IDEAS for static display at stall of Russian Helicopter. Russians were pissed.
2: They didn't allow static display of Pakistan next generation MBT. Its arrival was cancelled at last moment.
3: And this hasty removal of Missile thing from Burraq marketing display.



Arsalan said:


> The only thing that makes sense is what @Dazzler said, same system being marketed at Chinese stands as well so we just changed it at our end and will export as a recon UAV.


Make sense.

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## JohnWick

Tipu7 said:


> Well, our people did three strange things.
> 1: They didn't allow our Mi35 to reach IDEAS for static display at stall of Russian Helicopter. Russians were pissed.
> 2: They didn't allow static display of Pakistan next generation MBT. Its arrival was cancelled at last moment.
> 3: And this hasty removal of Missile thing from Burraq marketing display.


MBT........not the rjght time to show it to the world...I guess


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## Arsalan

Tipu7 said:


> Well, our people did three strange things.
> 1: They didn't allow our Mi35 to reach IDEAS for static display at stall of Russian Helicopter. Russians were pissed.
> 2: They didn't allow static display of Pakistan next generation MBT. Its arrival was cancelled at last moment.
> 3: And this hasty removal of Missile thing from Burraq marketing display.



I noticed this too. While there were some good new systems on display, some others that could nad should have been there were missing for some strange reasons. Should really take the organizational skills up a notch next year.


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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> Hey what up with Burraq?
> 
> View attachment 522909
> 
> 
> I understand that with WL-II coming in they will be our primary UCAV but why should the weapons be taken off from Burraq? You are marketing it at an expo and wont want to take off those missiles unless it actually cannot support them at all.
> 
> @Dazzler @HRK @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah any thoughts? @Slav Defence


or may be we don't want to sell Armed version .....


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## Windjammer

Special Effects Burraq.





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Tipu7

cabatli_53 said:


> A good news! TAI expressed that They are negotiating with Pakistan to sell sat controlled Anka-S variant for Pakistan Navy. It is expected to reach the success thnks to reference of Atak deal.
> 
> https://www.cnnturk.com/ekonomi/tur...source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer&page=6


New Update.

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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> or may be we don't want to sell Armed version .....


Not likely but not impossible either!

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## Muhammad Omar

Windjammer said:


> Special Effects Burraq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Should have added BARQ missile on under the wings


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## Windjammer

News and Updates from #*IDEAS2018* Ukraine gave an order of 6 current UAV Shahpar but Pakistan airforce refused because Pakistan is giving priority to full-fill local needs.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> News and Updates from #*IDEAS2018* Ukraine gave an order of 6 current UAV Shahpar but Pakistan airforce refused because Pakistan is giving priority to full-fill local needs.


If true that'd be a nasty blonder, especially as Ukraine ordered UAVs from Turkey's Bayraktar.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> News and Updates from #*IDEAS2018* Ukraine gave an order of 6 current UAV Shahpar but Pakistan airforce refused because Pakistan is giving priority to full-fill local needs.


seems fake news ....

we are marketing this UAV I think from the very first IDEAS Exhibition and here we supposedly get an order by a friendly country but we refuse to sale ..... this does not make sense

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> seems fake news ....
> 
> we are marketing this UAV I think from the very first IDEAS Exhibition and here we supposedly get an order by a friendly country but we refuse to sale ..... this does not make sense



Yeah that assertion, if true, would imply that Pakistan's production is sooo slow that it can not even meet the local needs of its forces in a timely manner.

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## silent hawk

HRK said:


> seems fake news ....
> 
> we are marketing this UAV I think from the very first IDEAS Exhibition and here we supposedly get an order by a friendly country but we refuse to sale ..... this does not make sense



With all due respect Sir things do not need to make sense.
Only a reason is required and that has been given " fulfilling local requirement"
We have Shahpar and Buraq and we are still developing a third bird. 
In a country that is begging both inside and outside how senseless is that


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## HRK

silent hawk said:


> Only a reason is required and that has been given " fulfilling local requirement"


and this reason seems logical ....???
keep in mind
- the system in question is not a NEW system but a system which is operation at least from +10 years
- and *IF *we can not even fulfil local needs then what was the purpose to market this system in almost every IDEAS exhibition and in some other foreign exhibitions as well .... ???

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## silent hawk

HRK said:


> and this reason seems logical ....???
> keep in mind
> - the system in question is not a NEW system but a system which is operation at least from +10 years
> - and *IF *we can not even fulfil local needs then what was the purpose to market this system in almost every IDEAS exhibition and in some other foreign exhibitions as well .... ???



I never said that it is logical I just said it is a reason.
I do not make the decisions in PAF. From what I have heard whenever the Air Staff takes a decision that seems illogical. People accept it by saying that they must have a reason.

BTW I agree with you they should have sold if they got a chance.

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## Trailer23

Not to take anything away from Pakistan and its abilities, but UAV's haven't exactly been our strong points.

I don't honestly know if Ukraine actually made an offer to buy any of our UAV's, but what I did find interesting is that a nation that has *Antonov* which has nearly 7 decades of experience, would turn to Pakistan. Seems far-fetched.

We ourselves are looking to China for the Wing Loong II.


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## JamD

HRK said:


> and this reason seems logical ....???
> keep in mind
> - the system in question is not a NEW system but a system which is operation at least from +10 years
> - and *IF *we can not even fulfil local needs then what was the purpose to market this system in almost every IDEAS exhibition and in some other foreign exhibitions as well .... ???



The reason given is absolutely untrue. As you pointed out the Shahpar has been in production for a long time. There's even a really old picture which shows (I think) 12-14 Shahpars in once picture.

That being said I have been told that there are some "technical issues" with the bird. This is all I was told. Since production is ongoing I suspect these are flight-software issues, which can be fixed for the entire fleet once they are solved. I am guessing we do not want to export a buggy product before we've ironed out all the kinks. The "local requirement" could be a face-saving bahana if I had to guess. Further credence to there being issues is lent by the fact that GIDS presented the Burraq as its main attraction this time around.

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## HRK

JamD said:


> There's even a really old picture which shows (I think) 12-14 Shahpars in once picture.


that was a picture of BURRAQ UCAV







silent hawk said:


> BTW I agree with you they should have sold if they got a chance.


I was not debating for the sales it was the news/rumour which seem illogical therefore difficult for me to accept.

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## silent hawk

HRK said:


> that was a picture of BURRAQ UCAV
> View attachment 524452
> 
> 
> I was not debating for the sales it was the news/rumour which seem illogical therefore difficult for me to accept.



Why has PAF not done illogical things before?


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## JamD

HRK said:


> that was a picture of BURRAQ UCAV
> View attachment 524452


Aaa you're right. Thanks for the correction! I was misremembering.

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## Dazzler




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## vizier

vizier said:


> I wanted to share my ideas about next genration uavs and possible ucav air to air warfare scenarios. Instead of creating a separate thread I decided to share it here as a discussion topic for future contribution.
> 
> Currently ucavs are used almost extensively for air to ground roles and a2a is a researched topic with prototypes. A live exception is during gulf war there are some videos of usa predator uav launching stinger against mig25 but uav later shot down. The trend is going towards installing jet engines to current a2g uavs, make them stealthier but still in a defensive situation against other planes. Another approach is currently designed 6th gen. planes by making the pilotless version of the piloted design. The first one is an a2g role and the latter is a multirole design.
> 
> I think just for interceptor role uav concept can be diversified to include rocket-ramjet powered systems with certain cost-practicality advantages over the above popular concepts that everyone with the budget will aim to copy from usa.
> Just an example of a sam system from the 50s is the bomarc sam that was aimed against possible soviet bombers
> from extremely long ranges like 650kms(200km more than S400, somewhat same as S500).
> missile flies at about 20km max altitude
> 
> View attachment 507341
> 
> 
> Practicality: The solution should be non reliant on static-vulnurable airbases. Jumpjet engine would be both costly and its high thrust to weight ratio to lift the plane upwards can be a tradeoff by its high IR signature in close ranges. Actually a solution was found in ww2 which is to use landing skids instead of landing gears and launch the planes by dolly. Yes at that time dolly would jump back and could hit the plane back during takeoff but we are not in 40s and circuitry can time the release and make calculations pretty well. In ww2 me163 interceptor had the landing skid solution with most axis airbases destroyed and had limited success but considering the overwhelming allied airforce and limited production at late years of war we cant say it is unsuccessful in my opinion. Yes the popular argument is the plane becomes vulnurable after it lands but It is not in the gun era but cruise missile era. If the airbase is visible from public websites like gearth and dozens of missiles could be launched at the same target then an undisclosed flattened grass location close to enemy is less vulnurable than the airbase mentioned even if it is protected by latest sams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost: The engine has no moving parts. It relies on speed. Rocket engine needs to be installed on the plane for takeoff until ramjet takes over but the example given above is 50s tech and could still go about 600km range. A simple design with fuselage and delta wings and ramjets with rocket take off it wont be costing much.
> 
> The new sensors like infrared focal plane array and a2a engagement systems, internal bays for ir guided short-medium range missiles is a must but to reduce costs bvr and radar engagement can be added in later versions if the uav is stealthy or fast enough to get close enough against other planes. For example Jjust a ground VHF radar needs to find the quadrant that F35 is flying in and guide the uav to those location for wvr engagement by the uav controlled from ground if not autonomous.
> 
> Another further option is I think rocket assisted takeoff under wings can be used and the space for the rocket engine now empty can be filled with ramjet fuel to increase effective range of the uav.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness: There are some tradeoffs but advantages as well and in my opinion advantages can overcome the tradeoffs.
> 
> - It wont be maneuvrable and cant make dogfight as fighter planes do. This can be compensated with off boresight engagement sensor and lock on after launch ir guided a2a missiles.
> 
> - It was a mach 3 missile. Hitting it with a2a missiles would be difficult but possible especially with newer ramjet powered a2a missiles so I think this tradeoff can be compensated by improving the airframe making it more stealthy even if it reduces its speed. The engine has no moving parts so you dont need a supercomputer to design the inlets to hide the engine fans. if it flies at about 20-25km altitude and ramjet engine is carried above the wings it can be hidden from the radars of the enemy planes flying below. A body with a diamond cross section and V tail is a common knowledge to reduce the signature.
> 
> I just made a sketch with openvsp modifying the x15 rocket plane adding ramjets and V tail and modifying its body a bit to show what I mean as below. You can think of canopy as Ir sensor.
> 
> View attachment 507342
> 
> 
> View attachment 507343
> 
> 
> As a summary popular designs are ok for usa as they have the budget and the tech but for us alternatives need to be researched since we dont have the budget to copy everything they do and we are generally at the the threat of being at the recieving end of their bombers these days. The urgent demand is an effictive interceptor role over others since we are currently on the defensive and I think rocket-ramjet based designs would have advantages in this role.



Another landing skid approach to remove the need for static visible airstrips is I think th Fod blocker inlets that many Russia n aircraft currently employs for rough terrain. Since engine breathes from the holes above while taking off and landing there wont be any debris problem.

In cold war some aircraft designs as below used the approach with a dolly take off-skid landing but later given up as sams developed.

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n1/baroudr.htm

Mig 29s and Sukhois have the fod blocker inlets but still they have the landing gear needing airstrips instead of landing skids which if installed in future would give the option to land on almost any flattened area.





This can be used for both future non airstrip dependant jet aircraft and jet engine powered drone designs.

However I dont have much hope for us muslim countries unless we give up emotionalism-waiting from outside to happen type of mentality observing like toy soldiers and reacting angrily when we dont like what we observe. We should be much more creative at generating solutions as they are creating problems and make much better plans than our opponents not considering ourselves good enough and waiting from outside things will be given to us by something or someone not much different than childrens santa claus.

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## Windjammer

*
PAC & AWC Stall at the Saudi Air Show.
*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bro do we have these uav's for special forces??






Windjammer said:


> *PAC & AWC Stall at the Saudi Air Show.
> *


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## Muhammad Omar

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro do we have these uav's for special forces??
> View attachment 546349


Nope


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## BHarwana

Which UAV is this? I have kept a truck in picture on top right corner to get idea of a size.

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## JamD

BHarwana said:


> Which UAV is this? I have kept a truck in picture on top right corner to get idea of a size.
> 
> View attachment 553743


Not a UAV. CN-235.

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## BHarwana

JamD said:


> Not a UAV. CN-235.
> View attachment 553775
> View attachment 553776


Hmm it seems you are correct but don't you think the wings in my pic are bit less wide and longer?


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## khail007

BHarwana said:


> Hmm it seems you are correct but don't you think the wings in my pic are bit less wide and longer?


Sir G, you are right the actual wings seems very slim, may be due to reflection. If we pay attention to the shadow on ground, it is very appropriate to CN-235.

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 517497
> View attachment 517497


any update to this uav

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## Incog_nito

I think PAF has CH-5 but they are keeping it as secret. 

Even PN needs a cover of CH-5 like UCAVs over Arabian sea. 

I think if PAC starts it's modified local production then it can be a good bet.


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## nomi007

The Jordan Armed Forces /Royal Jordanian Air Force HQ is going to sell the 6x CH-4B ucav
i think we need to get these uav for airforce


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1142762334588416001


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## nomi007

i think pakistan army convoys in Baluchistan use these drones for protection


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## HRK

Posting the following video of Falco Xplorer UAV by Leaonardo just to keep the member informed about the new development of Leaonardo's Flaco family of UAVs, to over excited and enthusiast members of the forum plz don't take it as suggestion or start discussing it as Option 

Pakistan Operate basic version of Falco UAV

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164889397894008832

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> Posting the following video of Falco Xplorer UAV by Leaonardo just to keep the member informed about the new development of Leaonardo's Flaco family of UAVs, *to over excited and enthusiast members of the forum plz don't take it as suggestion or start discussing it as Option *
> 
> Pakistan Operate basic version of Falco UAV


I'd look at it another way... Leonardo knows full well that the PAF and PN have MALE UAV requirements, and the latter is (or at least was by IDEAS 2018) speaking to Turkish Aerospace for the Anka. The OEM is investing in its export-oriented UAV line because it believes there's still a market out there, and that includes not just Pakistan, but KSA, UAE, Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.

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## Riz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd look at it another way... Leonardo knows full well that the PAF and PN have MALE UAV requirements, and the latter is (or at least was by IDEAS 2018) speaking to Turkish Aerospace for the Anka. The OEM is investing in its export-oriented UAV line because it believes there's still a market out there, and that includes not just Pakistan, but KSA, UAE, Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.


Sir what is the status of our Buraq UCAV..??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Riz said:


> Sir what is the status of our Buraq UCAV..??


tbh I only know of the public stuff. At IDEAS 2018, GIDS was given permission to market the Burraq UCAV for export along with the Shahpar, but I'm not sure what came of it. The PAF was supposed to be backing a new homegrown MALE UAV project under Project Azm, but again, I'm not sure where that's at. But the market -- esp. China, Italy, and Turkey -- are stepping up their MALE UAV marketing/promotion efforts.

That said, the hour of UAVs was in the last decade during peak COIN/CT, and at that time the Falco and (later) Burraq delivered. Now, the emphasis might be on endurance and range so as to build-out ISR, especially at sea and along the Pak-Afg/Iran borders. 

In this respect, I can see the PAF and PN opting to skip CH-4/Anka/Xplorer-class drones and push for a more MQ-9 Reaper or CH-5-class drone. Unfortunately, the MTCR prohibits the sale of such drones, so the only sure-fire course is to develop a local solution. So, if not shelved, an optimistic reading of Project Azm would be the pursuit of a Reaper-class drone.

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## Syed1.

Need to develop a wingman drone for the JF-17. A drone that can carry some of the weapons that the Thunder cannot do at present and aid in search and track.

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## faani83

Recently displayed at the grand military parade, it looked impressive. Could it help PAF in reducing the balance with IAF? May be thinking out of the box solution?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

faani83 said:


> Recently displayed at the grand military parade, it looked impressive. Could it help PAF in reducing the balance with IAF? May be thinking out of the box solution?


IMO the PAF will probably devleop its own attack UAV (similar to Sharp Sword) following Project Azm's FGFA (by re-using the same subsystems, e.g., engine, etc).

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## PakShaheen79

PAF has its own plans. It own path, its own resource bank and its own constrains. You are asking about a weapon about which we don't know anything to analyze it according to our very peculiar environment and operational strategy.

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## nomi007



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## khail007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 588280


Sir G, Is it 'BURRAQ'?

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## jupiter2007

faani83 said:


> Recently displayed at the grand military parade, it looked impressive. Could it help PAF in reducing the balance with IAF? May be thinking out of the box solution?



China doesn’t give anything for free and everything is not for sale.

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## nomi007



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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Need to develop a wingman drone for the JF-17. A drone that can carry some of the weapons that the Thunder cannot do at present and aid in search and track.



It is called JH7A.

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> It is called JH7A.


Its not a UAV.


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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Need to develop a wingman drone for the JF-17. A drone that can carry some of the weapons that the Thunder cannot do at present and aid in search and track.



Hi,

There is no such thing as a wingman drone for a fighter aircraft---basically no need for one. It is useless to spend money on a new system when current aircraft in the market can do the job---.

The JH7A can carry upto 10-12 BVR missiles in right configuration---or other smart weapons---it can fly low and below and behind the JF17 thunder and match the speed of the fighter aircraft---the drone won't be able to keep up.

This would be the least expensive option---. Building a drone and then making it COMPLIANT for that role is a headache well suited for the USA and USA would be possibly avoiding it as well.

The drone cannot do what you want it to do with current technology available---and why waste money when there are other less expensive solutions.

If the americans can go to their old aircraft like the B52 or the B1 bombers---Paf should not have any problem finding a platform supplementing the weapons load---.

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Its not a UAV.



Man---you did notice that---hehn---you are so smart that I just don't have enough praises for you---.

I really apologize that I have not respected your wisdom in the past---but I am a chaste person now---and will learn to be more respectable----.

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## Ansu fati

A BEAST UCAV FOR TURAF AND PAF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203016058786988032

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to buy UCAVs from Turkey and Europe?


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## nomi007




----------



## JamD

nomi007 said:


>


Does Pakistan even operate the ScanEagle TWO? Picture isn't even Pakistan (https://www.uavdach.org/?p=418235&)

EDIT: It does appear Pakistan Navy operates ScanEagle2 but the only picture I can find is this:


mohammad45 said:


> Pakistan I scan eagle
> View attachment 459603


----------



## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> It is called JH7A.



Bhai Jaan, JH7A/B chapter has been closed. It was offered to Pakistan twice but it was rejected due to various reasons already been discussed in many threads. Eventually China will replace them with something else. 

We need to work with Turkey on a Drone system that can be produce locally.


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## Tank131

Pakistan needs to work on both a MALE UAV and a helicopter UAV Similar to firescout which can be equipped with various loadouts depending on which branch its serving and which role it is in.

For example in hunter/killer or CAS role it could be equipped with a2g missiles for army. For navy it could be equipped with ATG missiles or a dipped Sonar array or even the ability to drop an self inflating raft in a SAR mission so that it can stay on site and provide some assistance via raft and equipment until rescue vessels arrive.

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## MastanKhan

jupiter2007 said:


> Bhai Jaan, JH7A/B chapter has been closed. It was offered to Pakistan twice but it was rejected due to various reasons already been discussed in many threads. Eventually China will replace them with something else.
> 
> We need to work with Turkey on a Drone system that can be produce locally.



Are you saying that the drone will compensate for JH7 A?


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## nomi007




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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


>


how many falco does Pakistan Have?


----------



## Ansu fati

Path-Finder said:


> how many falco does Pakistan Have?


Don’t know how the number but there is MALE version of falco underdevelopment


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## cabatli_53

Falco drone received Cirit missile. Roketsan integrated Cirit to this drone. Most likely, It is Pakistani falco!

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## Pakistani Fighter

cabatli_53 said:


> Falco drone received Cirit missile. Roketsan integrated Cirit to this drone. Most likely, It is Pakistani falco!
> 
> 
> View attachment 604142


Specs of the missile?


----------



## cabatli_53

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Specs of the missile?



http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/product/cirit-2-75-laser-guided-missile/

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## Irfan Baloch

Bossman said:


> Its not a UAV.


his response was qualified. read his detail later why he mentioned it.



MastanKhan said:


> Man---you did notice that---hehn---you are so smart that I just don't have enough praises for you---.
> 
> I really apologize that I have not respected your wisdom in the past---but I am a chaste person now---and will learn to be more respectable----.


if he read the question few times and your response again and thinks over it then he will get it why you mentioned the JH7A
or maybe I should also apologize to him as well

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> Falco drone received Cirit missile. Roketsan integrated Cirit to this drone. Most likely, It is Pakistani falco!
> 
> 
> View attachment 604142


any more detail, can you plz share the report from which screenshoot are taken ....??

also what are the number of Cirti missile per launch rail ...??

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## nomi007

cabatli_53 said:


> Falco drone received Cirit missile. Roketsan integrated Cirit to this drone. Most likely, It is Pakistani falco!
> 
> 
> View attachment 604142


if true than a big achievement



JamD said:


> Does Pakistan even operate the ScanEagle TWO? Picture isn't even Pakistan (https://www.uavdach.org/?p=418235&)
> 
> EDIT: It does appear Pakistan Navy operates ScanEagle2 but the only picture I can find is this:


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## cabatli_53

HRK said:


> any more detail, can you plz share the report from which screenshoot are taken ....??
> 
> also what are the number of Cirti missile per launch rail ...??




Report was about integration efforts of national munitions on different platform and there is not more info about it. Just these images bro.

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## Signalian

Future of Air refueling - something that even project Azm can be extended towards.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Future of Air refueling - something that even project Azm can be extended towards.
> View attachment 607110


The PAF ought to develop a large drone in parallel. They can use the same engine and some of the same technology from the manned fighter. The drone can serve as a deep-strike platform, air support asset (e.g., decoy, loyal wingman, EW/EA, etc), and tanker. How about a parallel Project JINN for a multi-mission drone? @JamD

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF ought to develop a large drone in parallel. They can use the same engine and some of the same technology from the manned fighter. The drone can serve as a deep-strike platform, air support asset (e.g., decoy, loyal wingman, EW/EA, etc), and tanker. How about a parallel Project JINN for a multi-mission drone? @JamD


Project Azm encompasses a MALE UAV. The large drone you are talking about is bigger than MALE ? 

A common data link is a requirement which brings common functionality of information sharing between all the assets in the air. Currently there are two which are known, Link-16 and Link-17. Erieye has Link-16, ZDK-03 probably has Link 17. Western (e.g. German) bought UAVs could have Link-16 enabled, where as local or Chinese could be using Link-17. there could be a module interfacing and linking both the Link-16 and Link-17, but its still important to transition on a common data link to avoid issues like Latency, Bit error rate as well as throughput. Link-16 is an old tech (1980's), where as Link-17 is a new tech, this could mean that Link-17 might be using newer modulation/multiplexing techniques with attributes which are more resistant to jamming/spoofing/meaconing and the throughput could be more than Link-16, basically more bits second transfer rate. The issue of Latency (delay in communication) could come through the use of an extra module linking both Links (16 and 17). If the deep strike drone platform that you mentioned would be communicating with an AWACS like ZDK-03, it would be using guidance from GPS/INS through LEO satellite and communication of the UAV through Data Link using UHF/L-Band/C-Band for not only long range communication but also high data rate for transmission of video etc. 

The multi mission drone you mentioned above could lead towards the 6th gen aircraft eventually. A decoy or a loyal wingman or a drone with dedicated ECCM/EW payload, tanker etc. 

There is another use of a deep strike platform. It can be a mother-ship to 4 x smaller drones (fixed wing or preferably rotary). So instead of a weapons payload, the bigger drone carries payload of smaller drones. These drones can be launched from the deep-strike drone in the Urban area where they can be used to gather intelligence, conduct recon ahead of an imminent air strike from PAF (manned aircraft or drone), verify at least 4 x different targets and stay in visual range of those targets. This could also be utilized as a decoy tactic. These smaller drones could be used to replenish supplies to SF operating behind enemy lines. 

I know your post is on long range and high altitude unmanned vehicle, however some of the main research being conducted in Drone industry is use of smaller UAV in urban and dense urban areas. This is particularly important for COIN war, Police and LEA Ops as well as civilian uses. The issue of navigation comes into play as GPS signal loss is highly probable between high rise buildings which brings the Data Link into consideration to use a different navigation system with sensors such as optical, laser for collision avoidance, acoustic etc.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Project Azm encompasses a MALE UAV. The large drone you are talking about is bigger than MALE ?
> 
> A common data link is a requirement which brings common functionality of information sharing between all the assets in the air. Currently there are two which are known, Link-16 and Link-17. Erieye has Link-16, ZDK-03 probably has Link 17. Western (e.g. German) bought UAVs could have Link-16 enabled, where as local or Chinese could be using Link-17. there could be a module interfacing and linking both the Link-16 and Link-17, but its still important to transition on a common data link to avoid issues like Latency, Bit error rate as well as throughput. Link-16 is an old tech (1980's), where as Link-17 is a new tech, this could mean that Link-17 might be using newer modulation/multiplexing techniques with attributes which are more resistant to jamming/spoofing/meaconing and the throughput could be more than Link-16, basically more bits second transfer rate. The issue of Latency (delay in communication) could come through the use of an extra module linking both Links (16 and 17). If the deep strike drone platform that you mentioned would be communicating with an AWACS like ZDK-03, it would be using guidance from GPS/INS through LEO satellite and communication of the UAV through Data Link using UHF/L-Band/C-Band for not only long range communication but also high data rate for transmission of video etc.
> 
> The multi mission drone you mentioned above could lead towards the 6th gen aircraft eventually. A decoy or a loyal wingman or a drone with dedicated ECCM/EW payload, tanker etc.
> 
> There is another use of a deep strike platform. It can be a mother-ship to 4 x smaller drones (fixed wing or preferably rotary). So instead of a weapons payload, the bigger drone carries payload of smaller drones. These drones can be launched from the deep-strike drone in the Urban area where they can be used to gather intelligence, conduct recon ahead of an imminent air strike from PAF (manned aircraft or drone), verify at least 4 x different targets and stay in visual range of those targets. This could also be utilized as a decoy tactic. These smaller drones could be used to replenish supplies to SF operating behind enemy lines.
> 
> I know your post is on long range and high altitude unmanned vehicle, however some of the main research being conducted in Drone industry is use of smaller UAV in urban and dense urban areas. This is particularly important for COIN war, Police and LEA Ops as well as civilian uses. The issue of navigation comes into play as GPS signal loss is highly probable between high rise buildings which brings the Data Link into consideration to use a different navigation system with sensors such as optical, laser for collision avoidance, acoustic etc.


Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.

But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc. 

But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.
> 
> But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.
> 
> But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.



Bilu,

Who is writing this post---? Is this your little cousin who wants to write something while you left the laptop open---.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.
> 
> But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.
> 
> But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.


Like a non-joke version of this:






(this was a poster at IDEAS from a company that imports quadcopters but wanted to do this in 2 years lol. Ignore the specs besides MTOW they are nonsense).

Here's an idea. You know all those RD93s that come off JF17s after 400 hours (or whatever the life of rd93 is)? Instead of just storing them for no reason use them to power the UAV prototype. If we like it we can talk to Russia to buy new ones. Not sure how Russia would feel about us doing this.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Like a non-joke version of this:
> View attachment 607339
> 
> 
> (this was a poster at IDEAS from a company that imports quadcopters but wanted to do this in 2 years lol. Ignore the specs besides MTOW they are nonsense).
> 
> Here's an idea. You know all those RD93s that come off JF17s after 400 hours (or whatever the life of rd93 is)? Instead of just storing them for no reason use them to power the UAV prototype. If we like it we can talk to Russia to buy new ones. Not sure how Russia would feel about us doing this.


Yep. Note: with a MTOW of 16 tons, how did they only arrive at 300 kg payload? Should be 2,000+ kg at least.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. Note: with a MTOW of 16 tons, how did they only arrive at 300 kg payload? Should be 2,000+ kg at least.


Yeah it's a long, embarrassingly funny story that I'll tell someday. I know some of the people (well intentioned but naive) involved personally so don't want to embarrass them publicly.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Yeah it's a long, embarrassingly funny story that I'll tell someday. I know some of the people (well intentioned but naive) involved personally so don't want to embarrass them publicly.


I wonder ... if they had just started out with a target drone project using more readily available COTS, and maybe a conceptual study for a loyal wingman drone (not a design, but just a realistic roadmap of how to get there), they might have been taken seriously.

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## Kompromat

Please name one flying wing UAV in service.


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## R Wing

The PAF should invest heavily in AI-based autonomous swarm drones. We can purchase the rest (all forms of regular drones) from China --- and it would be silly to try and compete with our brotherly neighbors in terms of tech maturity on larger drone systems. Instead, we should try and "leap frog" toward more novel systems that can be made relatively cheaply and take out and/or confuse expensive systems like the S400.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.


I get your drift. While you are implying the mission capability of drone which could go the distance and has multi mission capability, my thoughts are on its Data Link, navigation and sensors which will be attacked through spoofing/meaconing/jammed/malicious information intrusion and all the attempts of enemy to break the communication link between the operator and the drone as it travels deep into the enemy territory.

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## Zulfiqar

Signalian said:


> I get your drift. While you are implying the mission capability of drone which could go the distance and has multi mission capability, my thoughts are on its Data Link, navigation and sensors which will be attacked through spoofing/meaconing/jammed/malicious information intrusion and all the attempts of enemy to break the communication link between the operator and the drone as it travels deep into the enemy territory.
> 
> View attachment 607688



Something to counter it when it is not cloudy. Perhaps the chinese can sell something similar down the liine.


General Atomics Aeronautical Systems has successfully tested on the ground a space laser communication system that it intends to use to securely transfer data between its MQ-9 Reaper unmanned air vehicle (UAV) and satellites.

From an optical observatory located on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the company’s Airborne Laser Communication System recently established a link with a satellite in geo-synchronous Earth orbit, it says on 20 February. The test was done in partnership with Tesat-Spacecom using that company’s GEO Laser Communication Terminal, the LCT 135.

“This was the first demonstration of an air-to-space lasercom system with size, weight and power that is compatible with a medium-altitude, long-endurance [UAV],” says General Atomics.

The company says it used internal funds over the past five years to develop the laser communications system. Using a laser, instead of a microwave broadcast such as Ku-band, creates a lower probability that an adversary could intercept or detect a signal being sent or received by an MQ-9.

“This test was a critical step towards enabling our aircraft with a high-bandwidth communication system that cannot be jammed or detected by an adversary,” says Linden Blue, chief executive officer of General Atomics. “[Airborne Laser Communication System] allows a new generation of high-performance sensors by breaking the data bottleneck of current [radio frequency] SATCOM technology.”

General Atomics says its laser has 300 times the data-carrying capacity of conventional radio frequency SATCOM systems. The Airborne Laser Communication System will also be able to operate as a gateway to the US military’s Joint Aerial Network for forward-deployed forces, says the company.

The new laser communications systems comes as the US Air Force is pushing forward the development of its Advanced Battle Management System, a sort of internet-of-things network that is supposed to enable faster and closer collaboration between aircraft, UAVs satellites, tanks and ships.

Additionally, Pentagon’s creation of the Space Force in December 2019 was partly intended to increase the USA’s investment in space-based communication.

https://www.flightglobal.com/milita...-communication-system-for-mq-9/136859.article

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## Signalian

Zulfiqar said:


> Something to counter it when it is not cloudy. Perhaps the chinese can sell something similar down the liine.
> 
> 
> General Atomics Aeronautical Systems has successfully tested on the ground a space laser communication system that it intends to use to securely transfer data between its MQ-9 Reaper unmanned air vehicle (UAV) and satellites.
> 
> From an optical observatory located on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the company’s Airborne Laser Communication System recently established a link with a satellite in geo-synchronous Earth orbit, it says on 20 February. The test was done in partnership with Tesat-Spacecom using that company’s GEO Laser Communication Terminal, the LCT 135.
> 
> “This was the first demonstration of an air-to-space lasercom system with size, weight and power that is compatible with a medium-altitude, long-endurance [UAV],” says General Atomics.
> 
> The company says it used internal funds over the past five years to develop the laser communications system. Using a laser, instead of a microwave broadcast such as Ku-band, creates a lower probability that an adversary could intercept or detect a signal being sent or received by an MQ-9.
> 
> “This test was a critical step towards enabling our aircraft with a high-bandwidth communication system that cannot be jammed or detected by an adversary,” says Linden Blue, chief executive officer of General Atomics. “[Airborne Laser Communication System] allows a new generation of high-performance sensors by breaking the data bottleneck of current [radio frequency] SATCOM technology.”
> 
> General Atomics says its laser has 300 times the data-carrying capacity of conventional radio frequency SATCOM systems. The Airborne Laser Communication System will also be able to operate as a gateway to the US military’s Joint Aerial Network for forward-deployed forces, says the company.
> 
> The new laser communications systems comes as the US Air Force is pushing forward the development of its Advanced Battle Management System, a sort of internet-of-things network that is supposed to enable faster and closer collaboration between aircraft, UAVs satellites, tanks and ships.
> 
> Additionally, Pentagon’s creation of the Space Force in December 2019 was partly intended to increase the USA’s investment in space-based communication.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/milita...-communication-system-for-mq-9/136859.article



Laser communication is a big thing for satellite comm since laser is hard to jam and one of the methods is physical obstruction. However, aligning the laser itself is a tremendous task on its own. Its a very reliable form of data transfer.

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## Zulfiqar

Signalian said:


> Laser communication is a big thing for satellite comm since laser is hard to jam and one of the methods is physical obstruction. However, aligning the laser itself is a tremendous task on its own. Its a very reliable form of data transfer.




Further, it can be possibly used for line of sight communication with mother ship for USVs.

This is also something that MTC/PN can work on as force multipliers in lower sea states. 





























"The JARI-USV is armed with different weapons systems, including a foredeck-mounted remote weapon station armed with a 30 mm cannon and laser-guided rockets pod, four-cell vertical launch systems (VLSs) for small surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) mounted amidships, as well as a 324 mm torpedo launchers."

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...w-jari-usv-armed-unmanned-surface-vessel.html

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## Riz

Today i saw one Burraq and one big size UCAV harrowing over my head... Will not disclose the location but it felt good

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## nomi007

*LUNA NG*

The new LUNA NG aircraft

The light-weight LUNA NG aircraft is designed as a powered high-performance plane made of glass and carbon fiber reinforced plastics (CFRP) for long endurance and low acoustic, thermal and radar signatures.

A unique feature of LUNA and LUNA NG is its ability to perform glides without engine power with no acoustic signature and to restart the engine at any time. This permits operations in true acoustic stealth.

The data link transmits reconnaissance and system data from the UAV to the ground control station in real-time. LUNA NG is also able to perform fully automated reconnaissance and surveillance missions, without the need of any radio emissions.

Another unique feature of LUNA and LUNA NG is its inherent crash safety due to its glider performance and reliable parachute release and landing system.

The LUNA and LUNA NG TUAS aircraft can be easily equipped with a data link relay payload, which turns the UAV into a flying relay platform, enabling beyond line-of-sight operation of the unmanned ISR aircraft.






Summer and winter | day and night deployment




Reliable all-weather all-terrain drone systems
Due to its modular, multi payload concept LUNA NG can be fitted with up to three state-of-the-art payloads, including but not limited to:

Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), high resolution digital photo or video cameras, onboard data storage, meteorological sensors, radio relay, sensors for land mine detection, EW payloads, AIS (Automatic Identification System), gas and particle samplers, or radioactivity contamination sensors (CBRN).





Luna transport vehicle

*Ground Control Station*

Thanks to its modular system design, the LUNA NG Ground Control Station (GCS) can be installed in any vehicle or container/shelter.

It is fitted with several work stations equipped with high definition (full HD) colour monitors for real-time aerial image evaluation, mission planning and aircraft control (virtual cockpit). The GCS concept of operations (CONOPS) is based on a user friendly Human-Machine-Interface (HMI).

Complete mission playback for post mission evaluation, simulation and training can be performed in the LUNA NG Ground Control Station.

Mission schedules can be modified in flight. This is particularly advantageous in mountainous terrains and on long distance missions, as the LUNA NG aircraft can be handed over from one ground station to another.

A number of mission planning tools are available to the operator: 2D or 3D allegation of standard maps, satellite or aerial images.





Protected workplace for Luna staff



3D Missionplanning

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## krash

Horus said:


> Please name one flying wing UAV in service.



The RQ-170.

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## Windjammer

This image was said to have been captured over Minawali.

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## Path-Finder

*Leonardo flies new Falco Xplorer drone*
By: Tom Kington   January 20





*Leonardo's Falco EVO has been selected by two customers in the Middle East and the Gulf region. The company's longer-endurance version of the drone, the Xplorer, completed its maiden flight in mid-January 2020. (Leonardo)*

ROME — A new 24-hour-endurance drone built by Italy’s Leonardo has made its maiden flight in trials run in cooperation with the Italian Air Force, the firm said.

The Falco Xplorer, an evolution of earlier Falco models, flew for 60 minutes from Trapani Air Base in Sicily on Jan. 15 in a dedicated flying area before landing safely, Leonardo reported.

First launched last year at the Paris Air Show, the Xplorer offers a maximum payload of 350kg, a maximum takeoff weight of 1.3 tons, and it can operate above 24,000 feet.

The Italian firm is offering the drone with its Gabbiano T-80 radar, SAGE electronic-intelligence system, an electro-optical turret and a hyperspectral sensor for monitoring pollution and agriculture.




*Italy confirms military drone crashed in Libya*
After reports of the incident began to circulate on the internet Wednesday, the Italian military general staff confirmed that “contact was lost with an Italian Air Force drone, which subsequently crashed in Libyan territory.”

By: Tom Kington
Aimed at both civilian and military customers, the Xplorer will feature satellite navigation, while pending flight tests will aim to certify the aircraft to NATO’S STANAG 4671 standard.

In its statement, Leonardo said the Xplorer was not subject to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) restrictions, making it widely available for export around the world.

The drone is the third evolution in the Falco family, which includes the Falco and the larger Falco EVO, which offers 15 hours endurance.

Sign up for our Unmanned Systems newsletter
Every two weeks, get the exclusive, inside look at the challenges and opportunities drone tech presents
Before its launch last year, Leonardo CEO Alessandro Profumo said the Xplorer will “overlap with the Predator A - it would be a new product for Predator A customers.”

The UN and the European Union’s frontier protection agency Frontex are among existing customers of the Falco, while national customers are thought to be Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan and Turkmenistan.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/01/20/leonardo-flies-new-falco-xplorer-drone/


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

It's the time for Pak to get the following ASAP, preferably manufactured in Pak by tons:

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## nomi007



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## Aspen

krash said:


> The RQ-170.



Didn't this drone get hacked, landed, and reverse engineered in Iran?

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/c...aying-never-again-to-unmanned-vehicle-hacking

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## krash

Aspen said:


> Didn't this drone get hacked, landed, and reverse engineered in Iran?
> 
> https://www.militaryaerospace.com/c...aying-never-again-to-unmanned-vehicle-hacking



Exactly the one. That's how we actually came to know that it was in active service.


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## Kompromat

Interest in unmanned systems has increased. More new systems will join service.

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## mingle

Horus said:


> Interest in unmanned systems has increased. More new systems will join service.


Turkish Anka performed very well again Russia and Syria should look into it in good number can compliment combat helicopters against Militants and semi Armies

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## PakGuns

Horus said:


> Interest in unmanned systems has increased. More new systems will join service.


Anka is the best available option but will it effective against multi layer ground based defense systems from spyder to s,300 ,400 of india with airforce on patrol



mingle said:


> Turkish Anka performed very well again Russia and Syria should look into it in good number can compliment combat helicopters against Militants and semi Armies


..

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## mingle

PakGuns said:


> Anka is the best available option but will it effective against multi layer ground based defense systems from spyder to s,300 ,400 of india with airforce on patrol
> 
> 
> ..


Syria pretty much has everything except S400

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PakGuns said:


> Anka is the best available option but will it effective against multi layer ground based defense systems from spyder to s,300 ,400 of india with airforce on patrol
> 
> 
> ..


The Turkish UAVs, coupled with EW systems at the ground and air, have been being geared toward taking the enemy AD systems first! The Syrian expedition has shown a great success in this regard. More are to come. It includes BVR air to air ops using both inherent AESA radars and links (while keeping the radar off) via AWACS....

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## PakGuns

mingle said:


> Syria pretty much has everything except S400


not an airforce

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## mingle

PakGuns said:


> not an airforce


True but UAV are very effective against armour and Air defence couple with Gunship Heli I like turkish model and UAVS did a great job for them simply knocked out Assad Airdefence and armour.

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## Signalian

Zulfiqar said:


> Something to counter it when it is not cloudy. Perhaps the chinese can sell something similar down the liine.
> 
> 
> General Atomics Aeronautical Systems has successfully tested on the ground a space laser communication system that it intends to use to securely transfer data between its MQ-9 Reaper unmanned air vehicle (UAV) and satellites.
> 
> From an optical observatory located on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the company’s Airborne Laser Communication System recently established a link with a satellite in geo-synchronous Earth orbit, it says on 20 February. The test was done in partnership with Tesat-Spacecom using that company’s GEO Laser Communication Terminal, the LCT 135.
> 
> “This was the first demonstration of an air-to-space lasercom system with size, weight and power that is compatible with a medium-altitude, long-endurance [UAV],” says General Atomics.
> 
> The company says it used internal funds over the past five years to develop the laser communications system. Using a laser, instead of a microwave broadcast such as Ku-band, creates a lower probability that an adversary could intercept or detect a signal being sent or received by an MQ-9.
> 
> “This test was a critical step towards enabling our aircraft with a high-bandwidth communication system that cannot be jammed or detected by an adversary,” says Linden Blue, chief executive officer of General Atomics. “[Airborne Laser Communication System] allows a new generation of high-performance sensors by breaking the data bottleneck of current [radio frequency] SATCOM technology.”
> 
> General Atomics says its laser has 300 times the data-carrying capacity of conventional radio frequency SATCOM systems. The Airborne Laser Communication System will also be able to operate as a gateway to the US military’s Joint Aerial Network for forward-deployed forces, says the company.
> 
> The new laser communications systems comes as the US Air Force is pushing forward the development of its Advanced Battle Management System, a sort of internet-of-things network that is supposed to enable faster and closer collaboration between aircraft, UAVs satellites, tanks and ships.
> 
> Additionally, Pentagon’s creation of the Space Force in December 2019 was partly intended to increase the USA’s investment in space-based communication.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/milita...-communication-system-for-mq-9/136859.article



Do u have access to this paper ?

Jamming Attack Detection in Optical UAV Networks 
By
Maha Sliti, Walid Abdallah, and Noureddine Boudriga 
Communication Networks and Security Research Lab., University of Carthage, Tunisia

I have read it, its a research paper.

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## Signalian

Horus said:


> Interest in unmanned systems has increased. More new systems will join service.


A Lot is happening in the world for UAVs. A survey in late 2019 on, "Risk assessment of SDR-based attacks with UAVs" was conducted by French Universite de Bretagne-Sud deposited in L’archive ouverte pluridisciplinaire (HAL).

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## Zulfiqar

Signalian said:


> Do u have access to this paper ?
> 
> Jamming Attack Detection in Optical UAV Networks
> By
> Maha Sliti, Walid Abdallah, and Noureddine Boudriga
> Communication Networks and Security Research Lab., University of Carthage, Tunisia
> 
> I have read it, its a research paper.



I don't as I am just an enthusiast and not from that engg background or industry with access to IEEE. Although I have a younger sibling with engg background who just started working on mil comm side.

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## Path-Finder



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## Bilal.

Path-Finder said:


>


On a side note what dark times those were. Thanks to Allah, we have come a long way, we were standing at the edge of a fiery pit.

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## mustafa erkan

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/fl...ource=twitter.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+NAV
Results of using uavs on Syria and Libya .


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## Dazzler



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## Apex



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## Riz

Apex said:


> View attachment 624514


Wow... Mashallah we are heading towards right direction


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## Dazzler



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## Blacklight

Dazzler said:


>


Burraq AUAV with Burq AGM?



Zulfiqar said:


> Further, it can be possibly used for line of sight communication with mother ship for USVs.
> 
> This is also something that MTC/PN can work on as force multipliers in lower sea states.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The JARI-USV is armed with different weapons systems, including a foredeck-mounted remote weapon station armed with a 30 mm cannon and laser-guided rockets pod, four-cell vertical launch systems (VLSs) for small surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) mounted amidships, as well as a 324 mm torpedo launchers."
> 
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...w-jari-usv-armed-unmanned-surface-vessel.html



With self righting tech incorporated, USV can perform in higher sea states.

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## Zulfiqar

Blacklight said:


> Burraq AUAV with Burq AGM?
> 
> 
> 
> With self righting tech incorporated, USV can perform in higher sea states.



If MTC/Chinese can ruggedise the sensors then why not.

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## nomi007



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## Safriz

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 646698


Selex , burraq and uqaab?


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## JamD

Safriz said:


> Selex , burraq and uqaab?





JamD said:


> Falco, Burraq, and Shahpar in one picture for the first time (at PAF Murid):
> View attachment 646716

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## Safriz

I wonder when they will using these in Balochistan

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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 646698


This is recent!


----------



## nomi007

Path-Finder said:


> This is recent!


yes just 2 days old


----------



## polanski

China to expedite delivery of Wing Loong drones to Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...te-delivery-of-wing-loong-drones-to-pakistan/

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## Zarvan

polanski said:


> China to expedite delivery of Wing Loong drones to Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...te-delivery-of-wing-loong-drones-to-pakistan/


The Drones Pakistan is getting are most likely neither WING LONG II or CH 5


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

This configuration looks badass

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## Deino

Ahmet Pasha said:


> This configuration looks badass
> View attachment 648951




Unfortunately it is only an old GC


----------



## Bratva

Thanks To @JamD [







@PanzerKiel @Caprxl 


Ark_Angel said:


> PN is looking at multiple options from East and West. There is truth to it but it's a time consuming process. It will wait for while to come to frutition.
> As far as Italians go multiple stuff
> 
> *Pakistan has recently won a major tender for 24 UCAVs from a Major Middle Eastern Country. That is a testimony to how far our Defence industry has progressed.*





Ark_Angel said:


> Damn right they do. And you will see their performance in a low intensity conflict very soon.





Ark_Angel said:


> Affirmative. And not a Chinese Knock Off it’s a full fledged Indigenous MALE UCAV with localised Pay Load.





Ark_Angel said:


> That video was of an older platform which the World Knows as Burraq UCAV. Burraq is a tactical UCAV which requires LOS. The newer bird is not from NESCOM and is from a different entity, is MALE in its true sense and carries A newer Improved and heavier payload. It has a SATCOM link/INS/Jamming/Spoofing Proof protocols. It a different beast.

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## Bilal.

Bratva said:


> Thanks To @Bilal.



Actually credit to @JamD. I took it from his previous post.

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## JamD

Trying to underail the thread lol.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That would be interesting. We can barely see two or (at best) four fuselage jigs, so reports of an export order for such a system would imply that the UAV line at AMF is much, much bigger now. I don't we we'd be able to balance export orders + domestic needs without said expansion. So, I wonder, did they clear room from the K-8 area, or is it some net-new expansion? OTOH it might take less time to build fuselages, so what we see in the pics is enough?





Ark_Angel said:


> Own orders being diverted currently to fill the immediate need for the export order. No expansion currently undertaken but it's in the pipeline.



Well if it really is PAC @Ark_Angel is talking about then PAC did have a production line for Falco that could've been rejigged. Also I find it hard to believe that PAC designed, built, qualified, and got export orders for a MALE UCAV within 2 years. So either this is an earlier project (maybe a Falco on steroids) or not PAC at all.

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Trying to underail the thread lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if it really is PAC @Ark_Angel is talking about then PAC did have a production line for Falco that could've been rejigged. Also I find it hard to believe that PAC designed, built, qualified, and got export orders for a MALE UCAV within 2 years. So either this is an earlier project (maybe a Falco on steroids) or not PAC at all.



Commissioning of 19 jigs(could even be more by now) 7-8 months ago means move towards mass production. So we can work backwards from that point to get an idea of the development timeline of the program. But then again, it’s all speculation and it might very well not be PAC.


----------



## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Commissioning of 19 jigs(could even be more by now) 7-8 months ago means move towards mass production. So we can work backwards from that point to get an idea of the development timeline of the program. But then again, it’s all speculation and it might very well not be PAC.


19 jigs may not mean 19 sets of jigs but 19 individual jigs for parts, so I wouldn't read too much into that number.

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## Dazzler



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## Slides

We need to also get those Turkish drones that are doing amazing work for Azerbaijan.

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## vizier

Koral jammer combined with TB2 would be a nice addition to Pak inventory. Ads have difficulty in detecting smaller drones with pusher configuration which is the rotor is behind the aircraft. But as old Russian tanks dont have laser warning systems and countermesures, new t-90s and similar of India might have them. You need to consider the engagement options and ammunition accordingly while using these drones.

Recent Azr-Arm war again showed the incompetency of ads in their current configuration which is when they lock onto target to send a missile for a close hit they immediately reveal their own position. Be it the longer range S300 or shorter range Panstyr-Tor-Buk they become a target practice afterwards by anything. Even if they shot down the drone longer range systems like cruise missiles bms and even artillery if the radar is close easily target the air defence system. So locking on and sending a missile to target is not an option unless you lock on by another IRST system which has range disadvantage or launch a fire and forget system and almost immediately move away after launching the missile which is difficult for large systems like S300-S400s and from longer ranges.

Instead awacs and/or tethered balloon radar has better survivability while detecting longer range targets. Long wavelength radars even they are not accurate can vector planes or drones to incoming targets and their position is not as easy to uncover the opposing side needs special longer antennas on planes sacrificing their own stealth etc.








I have read somewhere before that B2 bombers are converted by Usa to be used as awacs. Maybe a pusher propeller delta flying wing design can be an option for awacs as well by installing a larger aesa radar on the nose and front of the fuselage. the propeller blades behind must be painted to reduce rcs though. Instead of the pilot cockpit a large piece of aesa radar can be installed as an awacs uav.











After the radar gets the target if the target is slow moving you can vector a2a drones like Akinci to that sector to deal with it. Also I think newer smaller a2a specific low rcs drones can be made with pusher-canard configuration like below. Ofcourse the straight rudders on the wings below should be taken behind the wing and slanted to reduce its rcs. Removing pilot canopy and inside bays for a2a missiles would be necessary too.







If the target is moving fast you need to send fighter aircraft like Jf-17 bvr option, Akinci type drone with bvr option or low rcs jet a2a drone which is currently under development by many countries.

Another option for a stop gap measure against jets would be to use a ramjet-a2a-drone capable of mach 3 with a wing configuration similar to one below. It needs to be upgraded to carry inside at least 2 a2a wvr missiles or if possible larger bvr missiles and it needs to have a radar inside the nose cone. This one is launched from B-52s but jettisonable rockets can be used to give the initial speed for the ramjet for ground based launch. No need to develop-install the expensive jet engine and no moving radar reflector parts in the engine being a ramjet. It would be easier to produce in numbers.









Lockheed D-21 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org










Jet engine low rcs a2a drones would have a longer range and can carry more payload but they are in development stages in most countries. But since sams and direct radar lock is an immediate give away of ads-radar own position that leaves air to air engagement as the remaining option and doing this as cheaply and effectively as possible becomes the main issue.

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## vizier

vizier said:


> Another option for a stop gap measure against jets would be to use a ramjet-a2a-drone capable of mach 3 with a wing configuration similar to one below. It needs to be upgraded to carry inside at least 2 a2a wvr missiles or if possible larger bvr missiles and it needs to have a radar inside the nose cone. This one is launched from B-52s but jettisonable rockets can be used to give the initial speed for the ramjet for ground based launch. No need to develop-install the expensive jet engine and no moving radar reflector parts in the engine being a ramjet. It would be easier to produce in numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed D-21 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 680535
> 
> 
> 
> Jet engine low rcs a2a drones would have a longer range and can carry more payload but they are in development stages in most countries. But since sams and direct radar lock is an immediate give away of ads-radar own position that leaves air to air engagement as the remaining option and doing this as cheaply and effectively as possible becomes the main issue.



Or better launch this aircraft with a ZEL rocket launch configuration from even frontlines. Intercept the enemy aircraft and return back landing somewhere inside in a protected airfield.









Zero-length launch - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org











You will need at least 2 strong rockets attached parallel under its wings though to make D-21 reach its required speed and altitude to activate the ramjet.


----------



## Incog_nito

Why not PAC try to acquire a license to produce Turkish UCAVs in Pakistan for PAF.

As PAF, PN, and PA needs those MALE UCAVs.


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## GriffinsRule

Incog_nito said:


> Why not PAC try to acquire a license to produce Turkish UCAVs in Pakistan for PAF.
> 
> As PAF, PN, and PA needs those MALE UCAVs.


We should make our own quality ones and learn from experience. License production doesnt teach anything


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## skyshadow

Apex said:


> View attachment 624514






Riz said:


> Wow... Mashallah we are heading towards right direction




actually Iran navy is building something like this ( IRGC already has built Shahed-171, its own version of it ) the navy one looks little bet different but the aspects are the same its name is Sejjil and its in flight test phase so it will be cool to see two navies cooperating


altitude

speed : +1000 km/h

range : 2000 km

payload : guided bombs , smart bombs , glide bombs , air to air missiles carrying them in its internal weapons bay


* Sejjil UCAV*














*IRGC shahed-171but i don't think PK wants its name side by side of IRGC so this is unlikely to happen any time soon but PK and IR ministry of defense are highly likely to cooperate with each other *

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## HAIDER

skyshadow said:


> actually Iran navy is building something like this ( IRGC already has built Shahed-171, its own version of it ) the navy one looks little bet different but the aspects are the same its name is Sejjil and its in flight test phase so it will be cool to see two navies cooperating
> 
> 
> altitude
> 
> speed : +1000 km/h
> 
> range : 2000 km
> 
> payload : guided bombs , smart bombs , glide bombs , air to air missiles carrying them in its internal weapons bay
> 
> 
> * Sejjil UCAV*
> 
> View attachment 688362
> 
> 
> View attachment 688363
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *IRGC shahed-171but i don't think PK wants its name side by side of IRGC so this is unlikely to happen any time soon but PK and IR ministry of defense are highly likely to cooperate with each other *
> 
> View attachment 688365
> 
> 
> View attachment 688366
> 
> 
> View attachment 688368


This is one massive uav , guys have more info ..?


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## skyshadow

HAIDER said:


> This is one massive uav , guys have more info ..?




The Shahed 171 Simorgh is an jet-powered flying wing reconnaissance / attack unmanned aerial vehicle produced by Shahed Aviation Industries, IRGC don't say what engine it uses but it could be Owj jet engine or a Tulou engine or some more powerful version of Jahesh-700 turbofan engine its speed is mach 0.7 to 0.8 altitude could reach 60.000 feet this version uses carbon fiber body for better stealth the range is anywhere from 2000-4000 kms it can carry 4 glide bombs with 100 km rage also air to air missile or smart bombs it will be escorted by other UAVs for better protection it doesn't fly solo 


*escort UAVs














*


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## Incog_nito

GriffinsRule said:


> We should make our own quality ones and learn from experience. License production doesnt teach anything


Totally wrong. We need to license to produce Turkish and Chinese UAVs at PAC.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Incog_nito said:


> Totally wrong. We need to license to produce Turkish and Chinese UAVs at PAC.


 Start by JV with Turks and then make our own stealth drones and wingman UCAVs.

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## Incog_nito

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Start by JV with Turks and then make our own stealth drones and wingman UCAVs.


Also, not to miss out Chinese ones too.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Incog_nito said:


> Also, not to miss out Chinese ones too.


Too much dependance on Iron Brother is not good.

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## Incog_nito

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Too much dependance on Iron Brother is not good.


It's not dependence. It's like collaboration which will result in learning to make our own ones.


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## GriffinsRule

Incog_nito said:


> It's not dependence. It's like collaboration which will result in learning to make our own ones.


If you havent learned how to make them yet, you will not in the future either. Hasnt Pakistan been license producing Italian drones for the last decade now? Not enough lessons learned there?
PS, which Chinese drone did the Turks produce before their own?

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## Incog_nito

GriffinsRule said:


> If you havent learned how to make them yet, you will not in the future either. Hasnt Pakistan been license producing Italian drones for the last decade now? Not enough lessons learned there?
> PS, which Chinese drone did the Turks produce before their own?


I had shared my opinion.


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## alphapak

Has Pak made anything similar to the harop suuicide drones?


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## Ahmet Pasha

alphapak said:


> Has Pak made anything similar to the harop suuicide drones?
> View attachment 691292



Yeah they will when India acuires this "eeekipment"


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## alphapak

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah they will when India acuires this "eeekipment"



India has bought these drones from Israel. Good option for Pak could be the Chinese suicide
drones.






Israel is arming India with advanced drones, I just hope Pak makes these and sells them to
Israel's neighbours.


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## Ahmet Pasha

alphapak said:


> India has bought these drones from Israel. Good option for Pak could be the Chinese suicide
> drones.
> View attachment 691293
> 
> 
> Israel is arming India with advanced drones, I just hope Pak makes these and sells them to
> Israel's neighbours.


I hope so too and I hope the uncles in GHQ/POF/HIT wake up to this.


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## alphapak

Pak needs these bad boys




Or Maybe these from Turkey.

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## JamD

Some rough pixel counting shows that AZM MALE's wing is 6.5 m long. So it roughly has a 13.5-14 m wingspan.

For reference:
Falco wingspan: 7.3 m
Burraq wingspan: 8 m (Pakistan's largest public UAV)
Shahpar wingspan: 6.6 m

This 13.5-14 m wingspan puts it in the class of Wing Loong I. Maybe Azm's MALE is just a license production/modification of the Wing Loong I, Who knows?

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## air marshal




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## air marshal

*Wing Loong II*

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## Zarvan



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## Incog_nito

PAC should work closely with Turkish & Chinese firms along with Leonardo over the license production of UAVs.


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## Windjammer

*A rare imge of Pakistan's GIDS Shahpar UAV being towed out of its shelter.*

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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> *A rare imge of Pakistan's GIDS Shahpar UAV being towed out of its shelter.*
> 
> View attachment 696108


Easy mistake to make but that's definitely the NESCOM Burraq (wingspan 8m):





GIDS Shahpar (wingspan 6.6m) can be seen too (26 Feb 2018):





In case there is doubt about the accuracy of Google Maps measurement tool (which isn't super accurate) you can compare the size of the UAV with the vehicles next to them. Shahpar and Burraq look similar (same configuration), however, the Burraq is a visibly bigger UAV (wingpsan difference of almost 1.5 m).

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## nomi007

Pakistani made A-10 warthog UAV.

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## Deino

polanski said:


> China to expedite delivery of Wing Loong drones to Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...te-delivery-of-wing-loong-drones-to-pakistan/




Any news on this since the Indian media once again is hyping a deal of 50 WL II UCAS allegedly based on the Chinese "propaganda media". However all I could find is Indian propaganda!

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## Metal 0-1

nomi007 said:


> Pakistani made A-10 warthog UAV.


Son: I want a Warthog

Mom: We have Warthog at home.

Warthog at home...

Actually if we make this drone make similar BRRRRT sound of canon. Hearts of enemies will start pounding.


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## air marshal



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## Areesh

I hope this thread gets deleted

If we don't use them in Balochistan then there is no point of this thread

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## Riz

Areesh said:


> I hope this thread gets deleted
> 
> If we don't use them in Balochistan then there is no point of this thread


Its been 10 years now, we tested burraq.. Dont know on whom they are going to use this machine

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## Areesh

Riz said:


> Its been 10 years now, we tested burraq.. Dont know on whom they are going to use this machine



They are for 23 march parade only


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## Riz



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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> View attachment 702123


Please delete this picture.

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> Please delete this picture.


Why sir?? Its all over on social media and im sure nothing secret now as they released intentionally


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## Deino

Riz said:


> View attachment 702123




Well; happy new year .. and again a question: Any idea what type of UAV this is? It is not a WL II nor a CH-5 or CH-5, which has a different tail.

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## Deino

Maybe ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344924353515892736

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## Riz

Deino said:


> Well; happy new year .. and again a question: Any idea what type of UAV this is? It is not a WL II nor a CH-5 or CH-5, which has a different tail.
> 
> View attachment 702185


I don't know about this sir, as i picked up this image from social media.. If the picture taken in PAC it means its home made bird

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## Riz

Seems more like anka??

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## Indos

Riz said:


> Seems more like anka??
> View attachment 702196



If you look on the wing section, both are different.

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## M.AsfandYar

Riz said:


> Seems more like anka??
> View attachment 702196


The VS in that is tapered. I think.


M.AsfandYar said:


> The VS in that is tapered. I think.


And as @Indos pointed out, wing section(root) is different

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## Zulfiqar

Cough Cough @Ark_Angel

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## SD 10

Deino said:


> Maybe ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344924353515892736


Any specs and comparison with winglong 2?


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## Fighting Falcon 01

So why is it that PAF did not unveil this UAV is it not ready yet ? Or undergoing trials? We know that PAF is making one under project Azm....


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## Asfandyar Bhittani

From the same event. *If* it is the same drone then that rules out Wing Loong, Ch4, and other similar size drones. Closer to a TB2 size-wise.

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## Tipu7

Deino said:


> Well; happy new year .. and again a question: Any idea what type of UAV this is? It is not a WL II nor a CH-5 or CH-5, which has a different tail.
> 
> View attachment 702185


It's an indigenous product. Being developed after evaluation of couple of foreign designs.

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## Cool_Soldier

It seems, CH4-B are being produced too locally.
OR
possibly, new equivalent drone is being manufactured.


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## Eagle_Nest

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> So why is it that PAF did not unveil this UAV is it not ready yet ? Or undergoing trials? We know that PAF is making one under project Azm....


May be they didn't finalized its good name 😍


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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> Why sir?? Its all over on social media and im sure nothing secret now as they released intentionally


The picture wasn't released intentionally that is exactly the problem.

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## Indos

Zarvan said:


> The picture wasn't released intentionally that is exactly the problem.



Of course that is indeed intentional

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> It's an indigenous product. Being developed after evaluation of couple of foreign designs.


Any idea how many hardpoints it will have ?


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## Bratva

Fron Drawing board to a Reality. PAC Poster from Dubai Airshow. Only Aesa Radar remains to be unveiled

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## Dazzler

4 hardpoints

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## HRK

Deino said:


> Maybe ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344924353515892736


its a UAV design and built under project Azm

















this is just a miniature display model





previous discussion about this UAV click here and here

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## HRK

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> So why is it that PAF did not unveil this UAV is it not ready yet ? Or undergoing trials? We know that PAF is making one under project Azm....


Traditionally PAF showcase its new inventory only once it becomes Operational which mean ONLY after the attainment of operational status of at least one complete squadron

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## Falcon26

HRK said:


> its a UAV design and built under project Azm
> View attachment 702244
> View attachment 702245
> View attachment 702246
> View attachment 702247
> View attachment 702248
> 
> 
> this is just a miniature display model
> View attachment 702249
> 
> 
> previous discussion about this UAV click here and here



This is a strong indication that the YF-23 style aircraft on the computer screen might actually be the stealth plane under AZM Project @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


----------



## HRK

Falcon26 said:


> This is a strong indication that the YF-23 style aircraft on the computer screen might actually be the stealth plane under AZM Project @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I still doubt it, might be it was related to just for design study


----------



## Trailer23

I didn't want to start up a new Topic just for this b.s. article, so I thought i'd post it here. When I say b.s. article, i'm obviously referring to the source and words chosen.

For your Entertainment, I present...:




Pakistan's *ISI* purchases four unmanned aerial vehicles from China for 'counter-insurgency' operations

*Srinjoy Chowdhury| National Affairs Editor*
Feb 05, 2021

This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan.

Clearly, under pressure in Baluchistan, the ISI, the intelligence wing of the Pakistani army, has purchased *4 Wing Loong I* unmanned aerial vehicles or UAVS from China. This will be for what Pakistan says, is part of 'counter-insurgency' operations in the troubled province. Along with the UAVs, will come several earth stations and a Chinese technical team.

This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan. In fact, while the Wing Loongs, developed by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, have 'long-endurance' - which means that they can be in the air for surveillance purposes for a long while, they can also carry weapons, particularly air-to-surface rockets.

*Pakistan has never been slow to use sophisticated weaponry against its own civilians.* *This includes using the Pakistan Air Force, which was first used in Baluchistan in the Seventies.* 

**​
Besides, *China has gifted two more modern Wing Loong-2 UAVs* along with ground stations and air-to-ground weapons to go with them. China will also provide other equipment and technical assistance.

*----------------------*​
I just wanna ask the obvious that is there a limit to depth how low these pathetic scumbags could possibly sink. But inadvertently I think we all know the answer to that.

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## KaiserX

Trailer23 said:


> I didn't want to start up a new Topic just for this b.s. article, so I thought i'd post it here. When I say b.s. article, i'm obviously referring to the source and words chosen.
> 
> For your Entertainment, I present...:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's *ISI* purchases four unmanned aerial vehicles from China for 'counter-insurgency' operations
> 
> *Srinjoy Chowdhury| National Affairs Editor*
> Feb 05, 2021
> 
> This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan.
> 
> Clearly, under pressure in Baluchistan, the ISI, the intelligence wing of the Pakistani army, has purchased *4 Wing Loong I* unmanned aerial vehicles or UAVS from China. This will be for what Pakistan says, is part of 'counter-insurgency' operations in the troubled province. Along with the UAVs, will come several earth stations and a Chinese technical team.
> 
> This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan. In fact, while the Wing Loongs, developed by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, have 'long-endurance' - which means that they can be in the air for surveillance purposes for a long while, they can also carry weapons, particularly air-to-surface rockets.
> 
> *Pakistan has never been slow to use sophisticated weaponry against its own civilians.* *This includes using the Pakistan Air Force, which was first used in Baluchistan in the Seventies.*
> 
> **​
> Besides, *China has gifted two more modern Wing Loong-2 UAVs* along with ground stations and air-to-ground weapons to go with them. China will also provide other equipment and technical assistance.
> 
> *----------------------*​
> I just wanna ask the obvious that is there a limit to depth how low these pathetic scumbags could possibly sink. But inadvertently I think we all know the answer to that.



What crap... Pakistan is procuring over 50+ Ch-4s from china and already has a sizeable number of armed BURAQ Drones in service. The ISI would be entitled to use as many as they would need for a specific intelligence gathering mission.

In truth I doubt the ISI would be given as much command as taking out a terrorist in afghanistan. I believe the decision and most of the operation would be under the command of an army unit (army aviation?). Unless the ISI is looking to go the CIA route ie taking direct role in drone strike operations/ decisions.

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## Trailer23

Bhai, just the starting statement by you...


KaiserX said:


> What crap...


...was enough. You need not go 'bout clarifying to us. The masses across the border get off on these so-called articles and go on a rampage in the 'Comments' section.

Its truly quite amusing.


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## TaimiKhan

WLs have arrived.

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## HRK

TaimiKhan said:


> WLs have arrived.


ڈبلوایل یا سی ایچ فور۔ پچھلی بار تو پورٹ پرسی ایچ فوراترے تھے​


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## MIRauf

TaimiKhan said:


> WLs have arrived.


I or II, which Version ?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Vapnope

MIRauf said:


> I or II, which Version ?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Has to be WL II


----------



## ghazi52

Deleted,
wrong post


----------



## kursed

WL-2 @JamD

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> WL-2 @JamD



No J10CEs yet mate?


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## kursed

Rafael said:


> No J10CEs yet mate?


Yaar.. wish I’d make it happen but as things stand PAF runs the show.  

So, have to sit and wait.

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## jupiter2007

Trailer23 said:


> I didn't want to start up a new Topic just for this b.s. article, so I thought i'd post it here. When I say b.s. article, i'm obviously referring to the source and words chosen.
> 
> For your Entertainment, I present...:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's *ISI* purchases four unmanned aerial vehicles from China for 'counter-insurgency' operations
> 
> *Srinjoy Chowdhury| National Affairs Editor*
> Feb 05, 2021
> 
> This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan.
> 
> Clearly, under pressure in Baluchistan, the ISI, the intelligence wing of the Pakistani army, has purchased *4 Wing Loong I* unmanned aerial vehicles or UAVS from China. This will be for what Pakistan says, is part of 'counter-insurgency' operations in the troubled province. Along with the UAVs, will come several earth stations and a Chinese technical team.
> 
> This is clear evidence of Pakistan, particularly the ISI realizing that the situation could slip out of control in Baluchistan. In fact, while the Wing Loongs, developed by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, have 'long-endurance' - which means that they can be in the air for surveillance purposes for a long while, they can also carry weapons, particularly air-to-surface rockets.
> 
> *Pakistan has never been slow to use sophisticated weaponry against its own civilians.* *This includes using the Pakistan Air Force, which was first used in Baluchistan in the Seventies.*
> 
> **​
> Besides, *China has gifted two more modern Wing Loong-2 UAVs* along with ground stations and air-to-ground weapons to go with them. China will also provide other equipment and technical assistance.
> 
> *----------------------*​
> I just wanna ask the obvious that is there a limit to depth how low these pathetic scumbags could possibly sink. But inadvertently I think we all know the answer to that.



Indian propaganda machine never stops. India had thousands of websites publishing lies and fake news against Pakistan. Ironically they lose land to China but don’t never write anything against China. There whole focus is Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> WLs have arrived.


Sir WING LONG II ? 



@Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @The Eagle

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> Yaar.. wish I’d make it happen but as things stand PAF runs the show.
> 
> So, have to sit and wait.



Don't know whats taking them this long. Just announce the damn deal! 

Will take another 2-3 years for them to make them operational


----------



## Kingslayerr

CH4bs say ly k WingLoong2 ka safar kb tay hua?

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## kursed

Rafael said:


> Don't know whats taking them this long. Just announce the damn deal!
> 
> Will take another 2-3 years for them to make them operational


That's one concern, we are already 2 years too late.

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## Vapnope

Kingslayerr said:


> CH4bs say ly k WingLoong2 ka safar kb tay hua?


CH-4s are for navy and army, WL2s for PAF.

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## Raja Porus

W


Vapnope said:


> CH-4s are for navy and army, WL2s for PAF.


I don't know why everyone one is going for their own option. They should reduce the operational cost by choosing a uniform platform

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Sir WING LONG II ?
> 
> 
> 
> @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @The Eagle



Jumma Mubarak. If it was me, I treat purchases of WL or CH-4 to be small items as compare to what we have so far done and gearing up to strengthen the defence more. Duao ma yaad rakhain.

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## Raja Porus

The Eagle said:


> Jumma Mubarak. If it was me, I treat purchases of WL or CH-4 to be small items as compare to what we have so far done and gearing up to strengthen the defence more. Duao ma yaad rakhain.


So something big is coming  ?!

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## Kingslayerr

I


Vapnope said:


> CH-4s are for navy and army, WL2s for PAF.


Is this news confirm? Means army have received CH4Bs and PaF have received WingLoong2s right?

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> That's one concern, we are already 2 years too late.



Not good man, not good.


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## SD 10

The Eagle said:


> Jumma Mubarak. If it was me, I treat purchases of WL or CH-4 to be small items as compare to what we have so far done and gearing up to strengthen the defence more. Duao ma yaad rakhain.


bhai blood pressure ka marizon sa kiun khelta hai?

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## Incog_nito

Is PAC & TAI working to co-produced some UAVs?


----------



## Bilal.

Can someone identify this UAV shown in GIDS section for IDEX 2021 show guide?







@HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Can someone identify this UAV shown in GIDS section for IDEX 2021 show guide?
> 
> 
> View attachment 722938
> 
> @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


Good catch .... I don't know which UAV is this but its seems new UAV is larger and have satellite link but maintain same canard pusher design in which Shahpar UAVs from GIDS are designed ... probably its the evaluation of Shahpar UAV

some thing in MALE UAV class .... ???

@Ark_Angel once hinted about the export of indigenous UAV but did not disclose any further detail about the deal ..... so he may have something to contribute here ......

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> Good catch .... I don't know which UAV is this but its seems new UAV is larger and have satellite link but maintain same canard pusher design in which Shahpar UAVs from GIDS are designed ... probably its the evaluation of Shahpar UAV
> 
> some thing in MALE UAV class .... ???
> 
> @Ark_Angel once hinted about the export of indigenous UAV but did not disclose any further detail about the deal ..... so he may have something to contribute here ......


Yes I remember but he said that in reference to the PAC UAV which is conventional layout, or so we think?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> Can someone identify this UAV shown in GIDS section for IDEX 2021 show guide?
> 
> 
> View attachment 722938
> 
> @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


GIDS said it was looking to develop a MALE UAV in 2017.









Pakistan’s GIDS considers developing MALE UAV


Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS)’ director of sales and marketing, Asad Kamal, told IHS Jane’s that the company is working on upgrading its Shahpar unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) an...




quwa.org





This could be it, and makes sense too in that it seems to be an evolution of the Burraq and Shahpar (wing design seems similar), but with a Reaper-like fuselage. 

So Pakistan has at least 2 MALE UAV programs: one at PAC and one at NESCOM. There might be a third program with the NRDI.

I'm wondering... Is each service arm basically footing its own MALE UAV program? E.g., PAF is going to use the AvRID/PAC UAV; PA will use the NESCOM one; and PN would use the NRDI one (and there's a chance the NRDI one could simply be NESCOM).

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> GIDS said it was looking to develop a MALE UAV in 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s GIDS considers developing MALE UAV
> 
> 
> Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GIDS)’ director of sales and marketing, Asad Kamal, told IHS Jane’s that the company is working on upgrading its Shahpar unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This could be it, and makes sense too in that it seems to be an evolution of the Burraq and Shahpar (wing design seems similar), but with a Reaper-like fuselage.
> 
> So Pakistan has at least 2 MALE UAV programs: one at PAC and one at NESCOM. There might be a third program with the NRDI.
> 
> I'm wondering... Is each service arm basically footing its own MALE UAV program? E.g., PAF is going to use the AvRID/PAC UAV; PA will use the NESCOM one; and PN would use the NRDI one (and there's a chance the NRDI one could simply be NESCOM).


So it’s a thus far unidentified SATCOM capable MALE UAV. This can be made into our TB2 type UCAV.


----------



## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Can someone identify this UAV shown in GIDS section for IDEX 2021 show guide?
> 
> 
> View attachment 722938
> 
> @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD





JamD said:


> So in this race of sorts the burraq won. BUT I hear AWC is working on a Shahpar-II (Yes you heard it first here) which is supposed to be larger in size than the Shahpar, have a hump like a predator (ie a satellite link) and be armed.
> 
> I hope this narrative satisfies a lot of you. Please don't ask for sources or links because I have none





JamD said:


> Yes, please see my previous post. NESCOM is big, everything's NESCOM. AWC is indeed working on the shahpar-II still.





JamD said:


> Awc is working on a shahpar 2 maybe that is why.





JamD said:


> Or the Shahpar II at AWC.


Exactly matches the Shahpar-II description I posted here many many years ago

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Exactly matches the Shahpar-II description I posted here many many years ago



Now that the cat is out of the bag. Name? Pretty please

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Now that the cat is out of the bag. Name? Pretty please


Whose name? UCAV is called Shahpar-II (or at least was called that in 2015).

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Whose name? UCAV is called Shahpar-II (or at least was called that in 2015).


Oh so it’s simply called Shahpur II, not something new. I thought you used Shahpur II just as a placeholder name.

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## JamD

RAMPAGE said:


> Really? Details?





JamD said:


> From what I know AWC is working on it. It will be bigger but be of the same pusher canard configuration. The most visible difference will be the addition of a hump (satellite link). Yes, that is what I have heard from multiple sources. Also SUPARCO is working on a satellite (as you may have heard on other threads). The two are connected.





RAMPAGE said:


> *I hope they put retractable rear landing gears on it*. BTW do you know if our Falcos have PicoSAR?


Your wishes answered.


Bilal. said:


> Oh so it’s simply called Shahpur II, not something new. I thought you used Shahpur II just as a placeholder name.


Well it could be a placeholder name. Hard to say. More important is what it looks like.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Your wishes answered.
> 
> Well it could be a placeholder name. Hard to say. More important is what it looks like.


So is this an example of NESCOM basically making fun of PAC ("oh you have a MALE UAV? Cute ... now try doing a retractable landing gear" ... *drops mic*)

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So is this an example of NESCOM basically making fun of PAC ("oh you have a MALE UAV? Cute ... now try doing a retractable landing gear" ... *drops mic*)


Well the PAC MALE might have a retractable landing gear too right? We haven't seen enough.

However, you have (perhaps inadvertently) pointed towards the pseudo-sibling rivalry between AWC and PAC.

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## Tipu7

A PAC UCAV project does have retractable landing gears. And so far it is yet to be shown on media. 


JamD said:


> Well the PAC MALE might have a retractable landing gear too right? We haven't seen enough.
> 
> However, you have (perhaps inadvertently) pointed towards the pseudo-sibling rivalry between AWC and PAC.

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## Bilal.

@HRK pretty much identified ^^

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## JamD

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> View attachment 722987


Niiice! But data link 300km? Not satcom?


----------



## Riz

JamD said:


> View attachment 722987
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK


I think PAC also working on a male version of SHAHPAR


Bilal. said:


> Niiice! But data link 300km? Not satcom?


300 kms is reasonable as we are not going to bomb Afghanistan with these birds


----------



## alphapak

Pak needs these:

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## Bilal.

Riz said:


> 300 kms is reasonable as we are not going to bomb Afghanistan with these birds


It clearly has satcom. So pretty much unlimited command/data exchange range should be possible.

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Niiice! But data link 300km? Not satcom?


may be specification of the version without SATCOM

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> may be specification of the version without SATCOM


Quite possible. Now we need to develop munition like MAM-L and MAM-C and ATGM to go with our new generation of UAVs.

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Niiice! But data link 300km? Not satcom?





HRK said:


> may be specification of the version without SATCOM


"There have been some design changes": I am speculating here that this version does not have the SATCOM (yet) maybe due to delays in the satellite program or mission requirements changing.




Riz said:


> I think PAC also working on a male version of SHAHPAR


No. PAC has nothing to do with AWC programs like Shahpar. PAC's MALE is under Azm and a different program.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

alphapak said:


> Pak needs these:


Who knows Pak might field such staffs when the "surprise" is required to be delivered...

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> It clearly has satcom. So pretty much unlimited command/data exchange range should be possible.


It definitely was designed with SATCOM in mind (as you can tell from my older posts). So that's all we can say unfortunately lol.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

If they're promoting it for export, then they've likely capped the range at 300 km to honour the MTCR. The domestic-use version could exceed that if they're using SATCOM. @JamD @Bilal.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they're promoting it for export, then they've likely capped the range at 300 km to honour the MTCR. The domestic-use version could exceed that if they're using SATCOM. @JamD @Bilal.


Good point. I wonder what the design changes were then. I think it's not as big as I was expecting it to be. The endurance is quite low (not in the range of 24hrs).

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they're promoting it for export, then they've likely capped the range at 300 km to honour the MTCR. The domestic-use version could exceed that if they're using SATCOM. @JamD @Bilal.


That makes sense. After all the picture is from a defence expo.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Good point. I wonder what the design changes were then. I think it's not as big as I was expecting it to be. The endurance is quite low (not in the range of 24hrs).


I think they made some changes to the fuselage. We all see the area for the SATCOM, but I wonder if they did more work across the whole system (but sticking to the same general design template). So changes can include different aerostructure materials, new internals, etc?

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they're promoting it for export, then they've likely capped the range at 300 km to honour the MTCR. The domestic-use version could exceed that if they're using SATCOM. @JamD @Bilal.


Are you sure MTCR applies to UAVs? Because Americans and Chinese both have sold drones w long ranges and endurance to many countries already. I don't think it applies.


----------



## ziaulislam

JamD said:


> "There have been some design changes": I am speculating here that this version does not have the SATCOM (yet) maybe due to delays in the satellite program or mission requirements changing.
> 
> 
> 
> No. PAC has nothing to do with AWC programs like Shahpar. PAC's MALE is under Azm and a different program.


PAYLOAD?


----------



## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Good point. I wonder what the design changes were then. I think it's not as big as I was expecting it to be. The endurance is quite low (not in the range of 24hrs).


If the are able to increase the endurance and develop MAM type PGMs then this can be our equivalent to Turkish TB2/TB3.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think they made some changes to the fuselage. We all see the area for the SATCOM, but I wonder if they did more work across the whole system (but sticking to the same general design template). So changes can include different aerostructure materials, new internals, etc?
> 
> View attachment 722995


No I think you misunderstood. Shahpar-II is definitely very different from Shahpar-I. What I was quoting was a comment that said that Shahpar-II's design had undergone a change from when it was initially envisioned. This was nothing to do with Shahpar-I


ziaulislam said:


> PAYLOAD?


No idea. Perhaps the same as Burraq, the Barq.



Bilal. said:


> If the are able to increase the endurance and develop MAM type PGMs then this can be our equivalent to Turkish TB2/TB3.


Perhaps.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Now, MAM-L comes with 15km range!!! Imagine what'll happen to the Indian armored/infantry/artillery etc. 15kms off the border if Pak uses this staff in abundance coupled with KORAL-class EW to jam the entire Hindutva?!?? Cold Start!!!!! Cow-dung from my village bull.....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Are you sure MTCR applies to UAVs? Because Americans and Chinese both have sold drones w long ranges and endurance to many countries already. I don't think it applies.


It matters to us because we're trying to make a case to enter bodies like WA, MTCR, etc and get NESCOM et. al off the US sanction list.

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## mingle

Bilal. said:


> Can someone identify this UAV shown in GIDS section for IDEX 2021 show guide?
> 
> 
> View attachment 722938
> 
> @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


Luna UAV from Germany


----------



## Bilal.

mingle said:


> Luna UAV from Germany


It’s Shahpar II. Identified in the later posts.

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## JamD

JamD said:


> View attachment 694942
> 
> 
> Some rough pixel counting shows that AZM MALE's wing is 6.5 m long. So it roughly has a 13.5-14 m wingspan.
> 
> For reference:
> Falco wingspan: 7.3 m
> Burraq wingspan: 8 m (Pakistan's largest public UAV)
> Shahpar wingspan: 6.6 m
> 
> This 13.5-14 m wingspan puts it in the class of Wing Loong I. Maybe Azm's MALE is just a license production/modification of the Wing Loong I, Who knows?





JamD said:


> View attachment 722987
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK


Assuming PAC's MALE will have roughly the same specs as WL-1 (which is reasonable since UAVs with similar designs usually have similar specs simply due to physics and the basically common ceiling on tech like engines) we can make an important distinction with Shahpar II.

Azm MALEShahpar-IIEndurance20 hrs14 hrsCeiling16,000 ft20,000 ft


Using the above stats and assuming some reasonable numbers for wing area and drag coefficient one can safely conclude that Shahpar-II will cruise at a much higher speed than the Azm MALE.


Azm MALEShahpar-IIMax Endurance Cruise Speed75 kts90 kts

Interestingly, the Shahpar-II does "look faster" lol, but in this case I think the numbers back this claim.

More speculation:
The two MALE UCAV's will fulfill slightly different missions. Azm MALE will primarily rely on time-on-station, whereas Shahpar-II will primarily rely quickly reaching the target area but perhaps not having the staying power. That is Shahpar-II is geared more towards strike than Azm MALE. Of course this is all speculation and could be absolutely wrong. Just some educated guessing.

What I can say is that it is good that we have clearly distinct designs/programs that appear to be best for different missions rather than just having a bunch of predator/reaper looking planes basically doing the same thing and being redundant.

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## JamD

JamD said:


> View attachment 722987
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK


Also there are clear signs of maturity of aerodynamic design. There are signs of aerodynamic optimization: Notice the 737-Max style main-wing tips (vertical stabilizers) and the 787 style canard wing-tips. This isn't just a scaled up Shahpar, but a scaled-up and refined Shahpar.

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Assuming PAC's MALE will have roughly the same specs as WL-1 (which is reasonable since UAVs with similar designs usually have similar specs simply due to physics and the basically common ceiling on tech like engines) we can make an important distinction with Shahpar II.
> 
> Azm MALEShahpar-IIEndurance20 hrs14 hrsCeiling16,000 ft20,000 ft
> 
> 
> Using the above stats and assuming some reasonable numbers for wing area and drag coefficient one can safely conclude that Shahpar-II will cruise at a much higher speed than the Azm MALE.
> 
> 
> Azm MALEShahpar-IIMax Endurance Cruise Speed75 kts90 kts
> 
> Interestingly, the Shahpar-II does "look faster" lol, but in this case I think the numbers back this claim.
> 
> More speculation:
> The two MALE UCAV's will fulfill slightly different missions. Azm MALE will primarily rely on time-on-station, whereas Shahpar-II will primarily rely quickly reaching the target area but perhaps not having the staying power. That is Shahpar-II is geared more towards strike than Azm MALE. Of course this is all speculation and could be absolutely wrong. Just some educated guessing.
> 
> What I can say is that it is good that we have clearly distinct designs/programs that appear to be best for different missions rather than just having a bunch of predator/reaper looking planes basically doing the same thing and being redundant.



Still, I have always noticed that our UAVs lack endurance compared to similar offerings from other countries. We probably even use same power plants but still.

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Still, I have always noticed that our UAVs lack endurance compared to similar offerings from other countries. We probably even use same power plants but still.


Yes exactly. This directly points towards aerodynamic design deficiencies which makes the following important:



JamD said:


> Also there are clear signs of maturity of aerodynamic design. There are signs of aerodynamic optimization: Notice the 737-Max style main-wing tips (vertical stabilizers) and the 787 style canard wing-tips. This isn't just a scaled up Shahpar, but a scaled-up and refined Shahpar.


This probably means that Shahpar-II isn't much bigger than Shahpar-I (and is definitely smaller than Azm MALE) and yet has a significant advantage in endurance over the Shahpar-I (twice as much endurance).

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Yes exactly. This directly points towards aerodynamic design deficiencies which makes the following important:
> 
> 
> This probably means that Shahpar-II isn't much bigger than Shahpar-I (and is definitely smaller than Azm MALE) and yet has a significant advantage in endurance over the Shahpar-I (twice as much endurance).



Yes but still about 42% less than similar class Turkish TB2 and if it doesn’t carry similar payload (150Kg) then the difference is even more stark.

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Yes but still about 42% less than similar class Turkish TB2 and if it doesn’t carry similar payload (150Kg) then the difference is even more stark.


I am reasonably sure that it will have comparable (probably larger) payload capacity but the lower endurance relative to TB2 is possibly due to:
1. Turkey's access to much more efficient aeroengines and fuels.
2. Better (more optimized) aerodynamic design of both the aircraft and the propeller.
3. Possible use of a variable pitch propeller by the TB2.
I can only speculate but I think those are the reasons.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Pak university grads should apply for internship to Bayraktar AS....

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## farooqbhai007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they're promoting it for export, then they've likely capped the range at 300 km to honour the MTCR. The domestic-use version could exceed that if they're using SATCOM. @JamD @Bilal.


Shahpar I has range

Data link Range (real time)250 km

so obviously the Shahpar II being marketed for export is without Satcom , hence 300km


----------



## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369337819550932998

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I am reasonably sure that it will have comparable (probably larger) payload capacity but the lower endurance relative to TB2 is possibly due to:
> 1. Turkey's access to much more efficient aeroengines and fuels.
> 2. Better (more optimized) aerodynamic design of both the aircraft and the propeller.
> 3. Possible use of a variable pitch propeller by the TB2.
> I can only speculate but I think those are the reasons.


IMO some these differences (e.g., efficient engines, fuels, etc) have a lot to do with WA and MTCR membership. 

Which brings us back to this point...

We all remember how GIDS literally scratched off the Burraq's weaponization capability in 2018. It wouldn't surprise me if the issue there wasn't China, but rather, avoiding problems with US and EU states.

Likewise, I don't think we'd actually offer an AZM-sized UAV to the export market precisely for those reasons. Besides cost and risk control, the Shahpar-series may be something we're comfortable offering to the export market because it stays in a safe range and capability range. Basically show we're responsible enough to one day get access to better technologies, but for our domestic needs only.

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## HAIDER



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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We all remember how GIDS literally scratched off the Burraq's weaponization capability in 2018. It wouldn't surprise me if the issue there wasn't China, but rather, avoiding problems with US and EU states.


A more likely explanation, you're right.




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Likewise, I don't think we'd actually offer an AZM-sized UAV to the export market precisely for those reasons. Besides cost and risk control, the Shahpar-series may be something we're comfortable offering to the export market because it stays in a safe range and capability range. Basically show we're responsible enough to one day get access to better technologies, but for our domestic needs only.


That Guy: If what you're saying is true, then this whole exporting UAVs thing sounds like a peacock dance to show that we are responsible let us into MTCR. We don't really expect to export UAVs that by all measures are inferior to other options available in the market, right? Maybe we are trying to sell them at a loss (because we can because state-owned organizations make them), and that's our USP.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> A more likely explanation, you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> That Guy: If what you're saying is true, then this whole exporting UAVs thing sounds like a peacock dance to show that we are responsible let us into MTCR. We don't really expect to export UAVs that by all measures are inferior to other options available in the market, right? Maybe we are trying to sell them at a loss (because we can because state-owned organizations make them), and that's our USP.


Look, we *are* talking about a nation that takes pride in winning 5th-gen warfare and come up with cheesy music videos, ISPR meeting pro-wrestlers, and other zany stuff.

This ploy to get into the MTCR is totally in line with our brand -- in fact, from a "5G warfare" standpoint, it'd be a brilliant strategy.

So brilliant, I doubt it's something we're doing intentionally...

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371004051589103616

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## ghazi52

maiden flight conducted last year. It is also not the only UCAV drone under development in Project Azm.

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## syedakm

Interesting news. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee of Pakistan Armed Forces General Nadeem Raza visited Turkey’s leading UCAV manufacturer Baykar along with a delegation from the Pakistan military. The delegation visited Baykar’s Research & Development and Production Centres. Seems like it is pretty much set in stone or the model wouldn't be gifted.


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## alphapak

syedakm said:


> Interesting news. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee of Pakistan Armed Forces General Nadeem Raza visited Turkey’s leading UCAV manufacturer Baykar along with a delegation from the Pakistan military. The delegation visited Baykar’s Research & Development and Production Centres. Seems like it is pretty much set in stone or the model wouldn't be gifted.



Which drone model was gifted?


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## syedakm

alphapak said:


> Which drone model was gifted?


*Bayraktar*


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## Ahmet Pasha

alphapak said:


> Which drone model was gifted?


TB2 looks like

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## vizier

Just wanted to make some addition to flying wing uavs. There is ongoing development of these in many countries but they are mostly jet engine designs. These have higher performance but costly to design with S intakes, coolers and similar challanges. Piston propellers were forgotten until the current drone age and I think these can be made stealthy enough as well depending on the mission type.








Flat-angled panels at the back over the engines would cover it from front and sides. The rotor blades can be made more curved and from hardened glass(radome material of jets for example is highly durable and radar transparent) making it transparent to radars.

They can never be as stealthy as B-2s or future B-21 raiders but for a scout mission of not being detected about 100-150 km from front and sides that would be enough and 1/100 times less costly than developing a dual jet engine flying wing bomber.

They can detect enemy naval fleet for a long range strike from other platforms or they can use sdbs which have about 100km range from stand off ranges without being targeted.


Another application that comes to my mind is stealth awacs. It needs to be a manned version for an awacs though. Flying wing has huge lift potential. Adding a radar over the top would be possible. The radar ofcourse should not be a circular radar dish like in other awacs but an aesa radar inside a box with rcs reduced characteristics ( trapezoidal perhaps).

Just like the concept below. Just an idea.


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## Incog_nito

Why not PAC & GIDs start JV projects with Turkey and China; and maybe with some EU countries?


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## ghazi52



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## farooqbhai007

looks like shahpar II is inducted within PAF

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> looks like shahpar II is inducted within PAF


Nice catch! Sahi Shaheen ki nigahain hain apki lol. Very easy to miss. Also, not necessarily. Posters have a lot of stuff and are made by some random person who is very likely to take pictures of this forum even.

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> Nice catch! Sahi Shaheen ki nigahain hain apki lol. Very easy to miss. Also, not necessarily. Posters have a lot of stuff and are made by some random person who is very likely to take pictures of this forum even.


This is a official poster from a PAF air base , can even be seen in the video PAF released , and is made specially for this exercise as saudi tornados are also shown in poster. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379126561669009410

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> This is a official poster from a PAF air base , can even be seen in the video PAF released , and is made specially for this exercise as saudi tornados are also shown in poster.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379126561669009410


Yes I know it's an official poster and I was talking about official posters.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Incog_nito said:


> Why not PAC & GIDs start JV projects with Turkey and China; and maybe with some EU countries?


And miss out on faziya colony??
No thanks

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## Incog_nito

Ahmet Pasha said:


> And miss out on faziya colony??
> No thanks



Your decisions don't matter neither my comments.

But it's like my opinion.


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## JamD

Here's some wild speculation:
We will see a lot of drone strikes over Afghanistan post 9/11/2021 (conducted by Pakistani drones, but never officially acknowledged of course). Reason being the absence of NATO/US, and the strong desire to quickly neutralize TTP assets across the border who will undoubtedly be planning massive regrouping as soon as the US leaves.

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## Kingslayerr

JamD said:


> Here's some wild speculation:
> We will see a lot of drone strikes over Afghanistan post 9/11/2021 (conducted by Pakistani drones, but never officially acknowledged of course). Reason being the absence of NATO/US, and the strong desire to quickly neutralize TTP assets across the border who will undoubtedly be planning massive regrouping as soon as the US leaves.


Why wait for them to leave? We have seen news regarding using of drones for surveillance over pak-afg border. What's stopping the security establishment from using armed drones today?


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## JamD

Kingslayerr said:


> Why wait for them to leave? We have seen news regarding using of drones for surveillance over pak-afg border. What's stopping the security establishment from using armed drones today?


Presence of US/NATO.


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## Kingslayerr

JamD said:


> Presence of US/NATO.


Please can you elaborate further why cant we use armed drones in US/Nato presence, we aren't going against their interest.


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## Raja Porus

A A CH-4,most probably with AR2 missiles


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## JamD

Kingslayerr said:


> Please can you elaborate further why cant we use armed drones in US/Nato presence, we aren't going against their interest.


Afghanistan is currently US/NATO controlled airspace. Pakistan will have to intimately coordinate with and take permissions from the US/NATO. I don't think we are on such terms with the US/NATO nor do our interests align so exactly.

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## Scorpiooo

Any update about wing long dong 2 which was to assembled in PAC i think numbers was 48 initially


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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

Turkey’s Akıncı UCAV successfully passed its first firing test using the latest smart munitions domestically developed by leading defense contractor Roketsan.

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> Any update about wing long dong 2 which was to assembled in PAC i think numbers was 48 initially




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208830046584832

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208860505579524
@TaimiKhan

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## farooqbhai007

So now it looks somewhat like this for *MALE type uavs and higher

PAF >*
Wing Loong-1 ( MALE )
Wing Loong-2 ( MALE )
Shahpar-2 ( MALE )

PAC UAV ( MALE )
PAC UAV ( HALE )

*PAA >*
CH4B

*PN>*
CH4A

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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> So now it looks somewhat like this for *MALE type uavs and higher
> 
> PAF >*
> Wing Loong-1 ( MALE )
> Wing Loong-2 ( MALE )
> Shahpar-2 ( MALE )
> 
> PAC UAV ( MALE )
> PAC UAV ( HALE )
> 
> *PAA >*
> CH4B
> 
> *PN>*
> CH4A


PAA will order PACs MALE as well I’m pretty sure. Navy still looking for one that fits their criteria.

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## python-000

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208830046584832
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208860505579524
> @TaimiKhan


Excelent...


Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208830046584832
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402208860505579524
> @TaimiKhan


Excelent...


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## Raja Porus

BTW can anyone guess what will be our doctrine on UCAVS?


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## Sifar zero

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 752315
> 
> BTW can anyone guess what will be our doctrine on UCAVS?


When was this pic taken?


python-000 said:


> Excelent...
> 
> Excelent...


Which indengious UAV's is he talking about?


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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> When was this pic taken?
> 
> Which indengious UAV's is he talking about?


Don't know.


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## White and Green with M/S

Sifar zero said:


> When was this pic taken?
> 
> Which indengious UAV's is he talking about?


there are lots of indigenous UAVs developed by our private sector like uqab/Shahper etc etc, and Pakistan is the only Muslim country in the world which sell UAVs to USA for border patrolling ( for Mexico-US border)


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 752315
> 
> BTW can anyone guess what will be our doctrine on UCAVS?





Sifar zero said:


> When was this pic taken?
> 
> Which indengious UAV's is he talking about?


Picture is from 15th February 2021. Wing Loon 1 UCAVs at Mianwali. They’ve been there since 2016, were moved in 2019, came back in 2021.

The indigenous MALE UAV that’s been inducted is the Shahpar 2, was shown at the parade, the indigenous MAL UCAV from PAC is in its final testing stages, prototypes have been spotted before. The HALE UCAV is a part of Project AZM, not sure when we will see that.

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## Riz

iLION12345_1 said:


> Picture is from 15th February 2021. Wing Loon 1 UCAVs at Mianwali. They’ve been there since 2016, were moved in 2019, came back in 2021.
> 
> The indigenous MALE UAV that’s been inducted is the Shahpar 2, was shown at the parade, the indigenous MAL UCAV from PAC is in its final testing stages, prototypes have been spotted before. The HALE UCAV is a part of Project AZM, not sure when we will see that.


They are here since 2016 but still TTP morons able to cross border and killing our soldiers . Inko Gernailon ki shadi par urany k liay rakha ha kia ??

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## farooqbhai007

iLION12345_1 said:


> Picture is from 15th February 2021. Wing Loon 1 UCAVs at Mianwali. They’ve been there since 2016, were moved in 2019, came back in 2021.
> 
> The indigenous MALE UAV that’s been inducted is the Shahpar 2, was shown at the parade, the indigenous MAL UCAV from PAC is in its final testing stages, prototypes have been spotted before. The HALE UCAV is a part of Project AZM, not sure when we will see that.


Picture posted above is from 2018 , At least 3 WL-1s were delivered for testing and trials in 2016 of which one crashed , after that in 2018 they disappeared from the airbase , maybe they were relocated for Ops or sent back.
Now in Feb 2021 they have re-appeared , at least 2 of them , and i think there is a 3rd in the hangar as well,


15 Feb 2021 , 2 x WL-1 ( Wing Span is 14m for WL-1 as measured here , while CH4 has 18m & WL2 has 20m Wing span so those two dont fit at all )

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## Riz

Sifar zero said:


> Which indengious UAV's is he talking about?


Which will be completed in 2050


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## farooqbhai007

Riz said:


> Which will be completed in 2050


It is already completed and in flight testing. Pls har jagha gair zaroori baton sey guraiz kiya karain , mauqa dekh kar bola jata hai. 
It it is not possible for a UAV to be present on 24/7 on border ,

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## Riz

farooqbhai007 said:


> It is already completed and in flight testing. Pls har jagha gair zaroori baton sey guraiz kiya karain , mauqa dekh kar bola jata hai.
> It it is not possible for a UAV to be present on 24/7 on border ,


O bhai koi nhii ha ready , bany hoay hoty yaa banny k kareeb bhi hoty to kia ab is wing loong 2 laity ?? 
aor UAVs hoty he 24 hours monitoring k liay hain aor kia hum na iska acchaar dalana ha ??


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## farooqbhai007

Riz said:


> O bhai koi nhii ha ready , bany hoay hoty yaa banny k kareeb bhi hoty to kia ab is wing loong 2 laity ??
> aor UAVs hoty he 24 hours monitoring k liay hain aor kia hum na iska acchaar dalana ha ??


Wing Loong 2 is a Heavy Attack class drone which comes in MQ9/CH5 range , while the one PAC Is making is in Anka / Wing loong 1 range

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## White and Green with M/S

farooqbhai007 said:


> Wing Loong 2 is a Heavy Attack class drone which comes in MQ9/CH5 range , while the one PAC Is making is in Anka / Wing loong 1 range


oh bhai 48 kis lie le rahe hain China se wing loong 2 ye tu batao???


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## farooqbhai007

White and Green with M/S said:


> oh bhai 48 kis lie le rahe hain China se wing loong 2 ye tu batao???


Agar na lain to masla , agar thora lain to masla , agar zyada lain to masla . Is qaum ka kuch nahi ho sakta
Pehly baat to yeh wo 48 WL2s waali news aik indian channel ney release ki thi back in 2018 aur wo fake thi , doosri baat Wing Loong-2 aik dedicated attack drone hai and is coming equipped with SAR , PAC jo bana raha hai wo lighter category ka MALE light attack & more focused towards surveillance hai , is liyey PAC wala apni jagha hai aur WL2 apni jagha ,

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## White and Green with M/S

farooqbhai007 said:


> Agar na lain to masla , agar thora lain to masla , agar zyada lain to masla . Is qaum ka kuch nahi ho sakta
> Pehly baat to yeh wo 48 WL2s waali news aik indian channel ney release ki thi back in 2018 aur wo fake thi , doosri baat Wing Loong-2 aik dedicated attack drone hai and is coming equipped with SAR , PAC jo bana raha hai wo lighter category ka MALE light attack & more focused towards surveillance hai , is liyey PAC wala apni jagha hai aur WL2 apni jagha ,


Oh bhai i can post you from reliable source that's we are buying WL-2 and this is not i am asking to you you misunderstood me, i am asking for you that we are not buying WL-2 for Fun but for Surveillance+ attack on our western border, It lot cheaper to use UCAVs than manned jets and helis for killing and destroying terrorists and their hideouts


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## Moon

We shouldn't focus on just H/MALE drones, but smaller ones as well, something like ScanEagles or RQ-7s.
Basically every military base/Cantonment should have the ability to launch UAVs, utilizing launch platforms like these:








These can play a big role in rapid response, especially in NW and Bln.

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## farooqbhai007

Moon said:


> We shouldn't focus on just H/MALE drones, but smaller ones as well, something like ScanEagles or RQ-7s.
> Basically every military base/Cantonment should have the ability to launch UAVs, utilizing launch platforms like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These can play a big role in rapid response, especially in NW and Bln.


Yeh log kahan sey aa jatey hain bhai , just looking at the category of rail launched we have
PA has Luna , and Uqab series and Uqab NG and Huma. 
PN has Luna NG and Scan Eagle

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## Moon

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yeh log kahan sey aa jatey hain bhai , just looking at the category of rail launched we have
> PA has Luna , and Uqab series and Uqab NG and Huma.
> PN has Luna NG and Scan Eagle


I mean as having capability to launch them from every available base.... Lot's of cheap drones. I know we have them, but they're deployed in very few areas.

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## Scorpiooo

farooqbhai007 said:


> Wing Loong 2 is a Heavy Attack class drone which comes in MQ9/CH5 range , while the one PAC Is making is in Anka / Wing loong 1 range


If not wrong, intially it was stated that wing loong 2 will assembled at PAC , is this still stand or we will get assembled from china


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## farooqbhai007

Scorpiooo said:


> If not wrong, intially it was stated that wing loong 2 will assembled at PAC , is this still stand or we will get assembled from china


Assembled from China , there has been no extension at PAC where these could be built,

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409070595246022662

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## Moon

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409070595246022662
> View attachment 757000


When will FC get drones in Balochistan?

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## ghazi52

NESCOM BURRAQ UCAV 
Test run


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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> NESCOM BURRAQ UCAV
> Test run
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 760108
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 760109


BURRAQ ??


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## ghazi52

CAS Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force visited the 3rd Main Jet Base in Konya, Turkey to review the multi-national air exercise".

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415944827947077636

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## oliverson01

Thank you for sharing these discussions. These discussions tell us how powerful our Pakistan Army.
furniture brands in pakistan


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## syedmunib

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429035419740655617

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## Moon

Wait, so we have reports of CH-4 induction, Ask Indigenous UCAV, Buraq 2 and now Anka as well?
That's a really wide variety. Or maybe I'm reading the news wrong?
What could really be a game changer is if we can get Turkish/Western EO/IR sensors and "transplant" them onto CH-4 or Buraq to reduce operational costs.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Moon said:


> Wait, so we have reports of CH-4 induction, Ask Indigenous UCAV, Buraq 2 and now Anka as well?
> That's a really wide variety. Or maybe I'm reading the news wrong?
> What could really be a game changer is if we can get Turkish/Western EO/IR sensors and "transplant" them onto CH-4 or Buraq to reduce operational costs.


İ think PAC was building Anka in the first place.

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## ghazi52

A contract is signed between Turkish Aerospace Industries #TAI and Pakistan's National Engineering and Science Commission (#NESCOM) for the joint production of "#ANKA Unmanned Aerial Vehicles".

The contract will specifically ensure the development of ANKA unmanned aerial vehicle. Within the scope of the contract, components belonging to ANKA will be produced and developed.

Within the scope of the contract signed to expand the potential market for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and to increase the cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, TAI and NESCOM; will be jointly responsible for employment, resource and technology transfer.

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## JamD

ghazi52 said:


> A contract is signed between Turkish Aerospace Industries #TAI and Pakistan's National Engineering and Science Commission (#NESCOM) for the joint production of "#ANKA Unmanned Aerial Vehicles".
> 
> The contract will specifically ensure the development of ANKA unmanned aerial vehicle. Within the scope of the contract, components belonging to ANKA will be produced and developed.
> 
> Within the scope of the contract signed to expand the potential market for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and to increase the cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, TAI and NESCOM; will be jointly responsible for employment, resource and technology transfer.
> 
> 
> View attachment 771729


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.

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## ZedZeeshan

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.

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## Syntage

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.



They are wasting hard earned resources.Acting like Indians(Pick everything that you like regardless of need or adjustment in your doctrine).

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## Primus

Will our anka's come with MAM munitions?


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## Aesterix

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


Yes. Total بندر بانٹ 
This has been going on for years. Likewise the problems with GSR .
Local prototypes and imports . None deployed in bulk.

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## Moon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> İ think PAC was building Anka in the first place.


Yes I do remember news of some components of ANKA being made in PAC.


JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


Maybe that's why they could be standardising the sensors of all the MALE drones. Or we might be seeing ANKA's more tech savvy variants, namely the ANKA-S in the model presented. Could be the first SATCOM drone we might be operate (probably for the navy). Or maybe the ANKA-2 twin engined drone. (Or the one with the SAR)
Or the CH-4 news was a complete hoax, because I haven't seen any Pakistani reports about it.


Huffal said:


> Will our anka's come with MAM munitions?


Not too sure, unless we're manufacturing them in the country with lower production costs.

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


like cmon dude every drone is in a different class , Shahpar 2 is ISR light MALE UAV , ANKA / PAC UAV is bigger than that but lightly armed and both for PAF , CH4 is for PAA as attack drone , and WL-2 is for PAF as attack drone. Falco , burraq & Shahpar 1 are not comparable at all....

*We also have WL-1s* as PAF has a testing/training squadron i believe with atleast 2 x WL-1s that was operational in 2016-18 , then re-appeared in 2021. Both WL-1s are visible on sat imagery in 2021 at Mianwali.
PN has also likely acquired a MALE UAV , though not sure if its CH4 or CH5 but what ever it is, its operational already based on what ive seen.

PAC's MALE UAV is called as TD-1 and its unconfirmed call sign is Karrar UAV.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


After reading Anadolu Agency, I think this agreement between TAI and NESCOM is to collaborate on the Anka for the sake of the UAV. The two organizations will develop the Anka further and market it to other countries.

It sounds like NESCOM is entering the Anka's overall supply chain, i.e., TAI is outsourcing work to Pakistan. I suspect this may be part of the offsets agreed to under the T129 and MILGEM deals. Basically, future Anka buyers will see that a % of their parts will come from NESCOM.

That said, in 2018, the PN spoke to TAI about the Anka-S. So, NESCOM could market the Anka-S to the PN, while PAC pitches its MALE UAV.









İnsansız hava aracı Anka, Pakistan iş birliğiyle güçlendirilecek


Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) ile Pakistan’ın Milli Mühendislik ve Bilim Komisyonu (NESCOM), insansız hava araçlarına (İHA) yönelik iş birliği yapacak. - Anadolu Ajansı




www.aa.com.tr

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It sounds like NESCOM is entering the Anka's overall supply chain, i.e., TAI is outsourcing work to Pakistan. I suspect this may be part of the offsets agreed to under the T129 and MILGEM deals. Basically, future Anka buyers will see that a % of their parts will come from NESCOM.


I certainly hope so.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> After reading Anadolu Agency, I think this agreement between TAI and NESCOM is to collaborate on the Anka for the sake of the UAV. The two organizations will develop the Anka further and market it to other countries.
> 
> It sounds like NESCOM is entering the Anka's overall supply chain, i.e., TAI is outsourcing work to Pakistan. I suspect this may be part of the offsets agreed to under the T129 and MILGEM deals. Basically, future Anka buyers will see that a % of their parts will come from NESCOM.
> 
> That said, in 2018, the PN spoke to TAI about the Anka-S. So, NESCOM could market the Anka-S to the PN, while PAC pitches its MALE UAV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> İnsansız hava aracı Anka, Pakistan iş birliğiyle güçlendirilecek
> 
> 
> Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) ile Pakistan’ın Milli Mühendislik ve Bilim Komisyonu (NESCOM), insansız hava araçlarına (İHA) yönelik iş birliği yapacak. - Anadolu Ajansı
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aa.com.tr



Small question, will NESCOM being under US sanctions hamper their commercial activities? (International market).


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Moon said:


> Small question, will NESCOM being under US sanctions hamper their commercial activities? (International market).


Yeah, it'd probably nix export potential to NATO countries for sure, but I don't think the other markets would care that much. In fact, at IDEAS 2018, a TAI rep told me that their vision was to get into Central Asia and Southeast Asia, and that they viewed Pakistan as a pretty key piece in the manufacturing, support, and marketing of their products (e.g., Anka, T129, T625, etc) in those countries. I don't think Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc will care much about US sanctions.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yeah, it'd probably nix export potential to NATO countries for sure, but I don't think the other markets would care that much. In fact, at IDEAS 2018, a TAI rep told me that their vision was to get into Central Asia and Southeast Asia, and that they viewed Pakistan as a pretty key piece in the manufacturing, support, and marketing of their products (e.g., Anka, T129, T625, etc) in those countries. I don't think Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc will care much about US sanctions.


This gives me hope, we could become a regional partner for Turkish defence industries. They do the R&D and we build it for them (at a lower manufacturing cost). 
It'll give them bigger profits, and us, a wider range of weapons to chose from.

I wish we capitalize on this opportunity, and actually make something of it rather than squander it (which IMO would be something unforgivable). 
Let's see where this goes.

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## Deino

Moon said:


> Wait, so we have reports of CH-4 induction, Ask Indigenous UCAV, Buraq 2 and now Anka as well?
> That's a really wide variety. Or maybe I'm reading the news wrong?
> What could really be a game changer is if we can get Turkish/Western EO/IR sensors and "transplant" them onto CH-4 or Buraq to reduce operational costs.




… not to forget Wing Loong II! Even if I still wait for a confirmation aka an image.

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## Moon

Deino said:


> … not to forget Wing Loong II! Even if I still wait for a confirmation aka an image.


It's possible we'll have get our hands on WL-2s, it'd only be natural for us to get them considering we operate WL-1s.

I'm starting to think the new SATCOM drones (Anka-S? And WL-2) are part of the deals PN signed with Turkey and China respectively.
Considering we haven't set our sights to developing indigenous SATCOM technology let alone drones, and the Navy wanting assets that can communicate easily with their vessels.
Out of all the services, Navy needs SATCOM capabilities the most considering how vast their area of operation is.
It all kinda makes sense now, WL-1s were for operator training and evaluation for all branches, from that PN decided to buy the SATCOM capable WL-2s, Army decided to keep the WL-1s and the Airforce wants to build it's own drone from whatever it learnt from the WL-1s.
The Navy operates Turkish vessels, and so they had to buy Turkish equipment to make interoperability easier, so they're buying the ANKA.


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## Great Janjua

What everyone is forgetting Anka is leagues above what we currently have,It's a true Multi role MALE UAV from ELINT TO COMINT and ground support,It Excells in all areas.Tell me a platform we possess which can do all this,Plus it gives us more leverage on Anka 2 which is a beast on its own.

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## Ark_Angel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> After reading Anadolu Agency, I think this agreement between TAI and NESCOM is to collaborate on the Anka for the sake of the UAV. The two organizations will develop the Anka further and market it to other countries.
> 
> It sounds like NESCOM is entering the Anka's overall supply chain, i.e., TAI is outsourcing work to Pakistan. I suspect this may be part of the offsets agreed to under the T129 and MILGEM deals. Basically, future Anka buyers will see that a % of their parts will come from NESCOM.
> 
> That said, in 2018, the PN spoke to TAI about the Anka-S. So, NESCOM could market the Anka-S to the PN, while PAC pitches its MALE UAV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> İnsansız hava aracı Anka, Pakistan iş birliğiyle güçlendirilecek
> 
> 
> Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) ile Pakistan’ın Milli Mühendislik ve Bilim Komisyonu (NESCOM), insansız hava araçlarına (İHA) yönelik iş birliği yapacak. - Anadolu Ajansı
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aa.com.tr


There is No Offset policy on paper or in contract by Pakistan W.R.T acquisitions being done. PN talked to Bayraktar, TAI and Chinese Drone Manufacturers in 2018, Result was acquisition(in pipeline about to be received ) of a Chinese MALE UCAV. ANKA and TB-2 were dropped due to cost considerations. This particular deal is solely between TAI and NESCOM, Undertaken by NESCOM’s Raza Samar as an own initiative(IMHO it’s one of the best decisions seen lately by any defence institution). Following this NESCOM will pitch ANKA to tri services when the requirement arises per se. Otherwise the brids will be operated/maintained by NESCOM and sent on tasking where required.

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## Great Janjua

Ark_Angel said:


> There is No Offset policy on paper or in contract by Pakistan W.R.T acquisitions being done. PN talked to Bayraktar, TAI and Chinese Drone Manufacturers in 2018, Result was acquisition(in pipeline about to be received ) of a Chinese MALE UCAV. ANKA and TB-2 were dropped due to cost considerations. This particular deal is solely between TAI and NESCOM, Undertaken by NESCOM’s Raza Samar as an own initiative(IMHO it’s one of the best decisions seen lately by any defence institution). Following this NESCOM will pitch ANKA to tri services when the requirement arises per se. Otherwise the brids will be operated/maintained by NESCOM and sent on tasking where required.


Touche


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## kursed

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.


Waste of resources for one, and everyone wants to appear as bringing a solution to the table. Where they cannot make one, they are buying them.

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## HRK

Ark_Angel said:


> Otherwise the brids will be operated/maintained by NESCOM and sent on tasking where required.


So in other word NESCOM will operate its own fleet ..... ???

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## Tipu7

farooqbhai007 said:


> PAC's MALE UAV is called as TD-1 and its unconfirmed call sign is Karrar UAV.


The next obvious question people will ask about it's capability.
So, You should keep a lid.

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> PAC's MALE UAV is called as TD-1 and its unconfirmed call sign is Karrar UAV.


So TD = Technology Demonstrator .... ???

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## Ark_Angel

HRK said:


> So in other word NESCOM will operate its own fleet ..... ???


Initially yes. Till the time a contract is not reached.

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## Bratva

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what the crap is going on? Everyone wants their own complete line of UAVs.
> AWC: Shahpar and Shahpar-II
> NESCOM: Burraq and (now) Anka
> PAC: Falco and unnamed MALE
> Meanwhile PAF PN PA: CH-4 and WL-2
> Either this is some 3 dimensional chess, or everyone's doing their own thing with no regard to the other.





farooqbhai007 said:


> like cmon dude every drone is in a different class , Shahpar 2 is ISR light MALE UAV , ANKA / PAC UAV is bigger than that but lightly armed and both for PAF , CH4 is for PAA as attack drone , and WL-2 is for PAF as attack drone. Falco , burraq & Shahpar 1 are not comparable at all....
> 
> *We also have WL-1s* as PAF has a testing/training squadron i believe with atleast 2 x WL-1s that was operational in 2016-18 , then re-appeared in 2021. Both WL-1s are visible on sat imagery in 2021 at Mianwali.
> PN has also likely acquired a MALE UAV , though not sure if its CH4 or CH5 but what ever it is, its operational already based on what ive seen.
> 
> PAC's MALE UAV is called as TD-1 and its unconfirmed call sign is Karrar UAV.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> After reading Anadolu Agency, I think this agreement between TAI and NESCOM is to collaborate on the Anka for the sake of the UAV. The two organizations will develop the Anka further and market it to other countries.
> 
> It sounds like NESCOM is entering the Anka's overall supply chain, i.e., TAI is outsourcing work to Pakistan. I suspect this may be part of the offsets agreed to under the T129 and MILGEM deals. Basically, future Anka buyers will see that a % of their parts will come from NESCOM.
> 
> That said, in 2018, the PN spoke to TAI about the Anka-S. So, NESCOM could market the Anka-S to the PN, while PAC pitches its MALE UAV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> İnsansız hava aracı Anka, Pakistan iş birliğiyle güçlendirilecek
> 
> 
> Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) ile Pakistan’ın Milli Mühendislik ve Bilim Komisyonu (NESCOM), insansız hava araçlarına (İHA) yönelik iş birliği yapacak. - Anadolu Ajansı
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aa.com.tr





kursed said:


> Waste of resources for one, and everyone wants to appear as bringing a solution to the table. Where they cannot make one, they are buying them.





Tipu7 said:


> The next obvious question people will ask about it's capability.
> So, You should keep a lid.





HRK said:


> So TD = Technology Demonstrator .... ???

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## farooqbhai007

Tipu7 said:


> The next obvious question people will ask about it's capability.
> So, You should keep a lid.


According to @PSFAERO from one of his Twitter tweets , The TD-1 ( 2 prototypes ) has slightly better perfomance characteristics than the Anka S. 
Also 4 CH4s are operational so far. Every thing is available in open source.


Deino said:


> … not to forget Wing Loong II! Even if I still wait for a confirmation aka an image.


given the WL1 Test & Training Squadron was reactivated in 2021 , we could see the arrival of WL2 soon

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## farooqbhai007



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## TsAr

Moon said:


> Small question, will NESCOM being under US sanctions hamper their commercial activities? (International market).


Turkey along with some Middle-East countries are interested in joint ventures with Nescom

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 772114


Basically an Anka with less service ceiling


farooqbhai007 said:


> According to @PSFAERO from one of his Twitter tweets , The TD-1 ( 2 prototypes ) has slightly better perfomance characteristics than the Anka S.
> Also 4 CH4s are operational so far. Every thing is available in open source.
> 
> given the WL1 Test & Training Squadron was reactivated in 2021 , we could see the arrival of WL2 soon


Best bet is since we now basically own Anka how about start negotiating for Anka 2.It could meet all our requirements and much more whilst being highly compatible with Anka 1


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## farooqbhai007

Great Janjua said:


> Basically an Anka with less service ceiling


Much faster and longer endurance than anka with a better engine than Anka ( TD-1 max speed is 160knots while Anka S max speed is 117 Knots ).

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 772114








No SATCOM?

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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> Much faster and longer endurance than anka with a better engine than Anka ( TD-1 max speed is 160knots while Anka S max speed is 117 Knots ).


First of all speed does not matter in a already universal slowing moving medium altitude UAV, Rather the payload capacity, altitude and like you said endurance/Combat Range play a key role,Also it's modularity like can it be configured to different mission types in short span of time.From looking at this brochure we can tell that PAC UAV and it's payload capacity is the same,Whilst boasting a bigger engine 200hp versus a 170hp on Anka S. From this we can probably assume it's basically an Anka S but a bit longer in length since that too is different.

It's really not ground breaking from a project that took bloody ages and that from foreign assistance.

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## Philip the Arab

Besides MAM, the UAE produces a similar system of Denel origin although the chance that is used on a Pak UAV is almost impossible.


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## Moon

Philip the Arab said:


> Besides MAM, the UAE produces a similar system of Denel origin although the chance that is used on a Pak UAV is almost impossible.


Desert Sting? Very potent weapon, but too expensive. To make these effective in counterterrorism we need something cost effective, otherwise we'll go bankrupt lobbing munitions worth more than cars at $10 tents.



farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 772114


So it carries 770lb of fuel? (1980+770+770 = 3520).

Seeing it'll carry 770lb payload which includes an EO/IR turret plus armament it has 770lbs left for fuel.

Now I don't want to be sound pessimistic, but a 200hp engine, with 770lb of fuel is not going to last very long (considering the leading engine in 200hp-215hp category *(Lycoming IO-390)* burns fuel at around *13 GPH* at around* 75%* power and *10 GPH* at around *55%* power) and a gallon of fuel weighs around 6lbs so if my math is right, at an average of 55% power during a mission, it has somewhere around *12 hours of mission endurance* (that includes the whole take off and landing). Which isn't really that great if you compare it with other drones, but hey if we're building them here, and building them cheap, it's better than nothing.
BTW a Predator manages manages 24 hours off 870lbs of fuel with a smaller, more efficient Rotax 914 engine (albeit in a different configuration).

This is just my deduction from bits of information I found over the net, and based almost entirely on assumptions.

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## JamD

Moon said:


> r) and a gallon of fuel weighs around 6lbs so if my math is right, at an average of 55% power during a mission, it has somewhere around *12 hours of mission endurance* (that includes the whole take off and landing). Which isn't really that great if you compare it with other drone



I did a similar calculation and arrive at similar numbers as you. I guess I was more generous and I concede that your numbers are probably more realistic.





JamD said:


> I would like to see some specs issued by PAC, since these seem like design specifications/goals and not the actual specifications, but let's take these at face value.
> 
> Firstly, the height has to be a typo. 3ft makes no sense. We saw the prototype and we are 200% sure it wasn't that small.
> 
> The engine. Interesting how it has exactly the same bhp as the Lycoming engine on the Mushaak. Makes sense to have a common engine.
> 
> Some rough math:
> MTOW = 3520 lb
> Armament = 771 lb
> Empty = 1980 lb
> 
> Fuel(?) = 3520-771-1980 = 769 lb
> Fuel Fraction (?) = 769/(3520-771) = 0.28 (for comparison MQ-1 has a fuel fraction of 0.45 or something, which points to lightweight structure)
> 
> Fuel Volume(?) = 490 L
> Lycoming Endurance = 30-34 L / hr
> Endurance of UAV = 14.4 - 16 hr
> 
> Decent, but not crazy. Endurance would be very similar to Shahpar II. Payload much bigger.



The thing is this is acceptable as a first step since:
1. Probably the first time that we have designed and constructed a large aircraft structure. So I am sure there's a LOT of room for improvement there.
2. We are using a rather old, COTS engine, since we really don't make engines.
I think this is reasonable for us. Sure it's no Predator but it's a poor man's predator.

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## Philip the Arab

Moon said:


> Desert Sting? Very potent weapon, but too expensive. To make these effective in counterterrorism we need something cost effective, otherwise we'll go bankrupt lobbing munitions worth more than cars at $10 tents


There should also be the concept of dropping standoff weapons from that MALE UAVs, the Turks have something called the Kuzgun and UAE is developing something Nasef with 120km range, 100kg weight and 50kg warhead.


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## Moon

JamD said:


> I did a similar calculation and arrive at similar numbers as you. I guess I was more generous and I concede that your numbers are probably more realistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is this is acceptable as a first step since:
> 1. Probably the first time that we have designed and constructed a large aircraft structure. So I am sure there's a LOT of room for improvement there.
> 2. We are using a rather old, COTS engine, since we really don't make engines.
> I think this is reasonable for us. Sure it's no Predator but it's a poor man's predator.


Maybe in later variants we'll be using more composites to keep the weight down. But tbh I'm not aware of the capabilities Kamra has for making composites or large composite parts. 

Mind you, an ANKA has a 30 hour endurance with a 770lb payload, so there's definitely room for improvement.

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## Riz



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## Tipu7

Riz said:


> View attachment 772293





farooqbhai007 said:


> View attachment 772114


LoL, specifications are already here ...


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## khanasifm

This 200 hp engine ? What type ? Are they putting mashaq engine older one with 200 hp in them ??
Newer super mashaq has upgraded engine with 260 hp engine
1 × Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 4-cylinder air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 149 kW (200 hp)
This 200 hp engine ? What type ? Are they putting mashaq engine older one with 200 hp in them ??
Newer super mashaq has upgraded engine with 260 hp engine
1 × Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 4-cylinder air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 149 kW (200 hp)


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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> This 200 hp engine ? What type ? Are they putting mashaq engine older one with 200 hp in them ??
> Newer super mashaq has upgraded engine with 260 hp engine
> 1 × Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 4-cylinder air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 149 kW (200 hp)
> This 200 hp engine ? What type ? Are they putting mashaq engine older one with 200 hp in them ??
> Newer super mashaq has upgraded engine with 260 hp engine
> 1 × Textron Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 4-cylinder air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 149 kW (200 hp)


Yes, mushaq engine, not super mushaq one, must have had their weight, balance and fuel consumption reasons.

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## Deino

Interesting! PAF (?) CH-4 revealed!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430478393678630914

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> Interesting! PAF (?) CH-4 revealed!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430478393678630914


CH-4 orders were by the army iirc. PAF has WL-1 and WL-2.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430505459727802369

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## Deino

iLION12345_1 said:


> CH-4 orders were by the army iirc. PAF has WL-1 and WL-2.




I was not sure and asked detresfa_, and he said, he thinks they are for the PAF, but I welcome every correction.

By the way ....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430505459727802369


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> I was not sure and asked detresfa_, and he said, he thinks they are for the PAF, but I welcome every correction.


Pak Army and Pak Navy bought CH 4. Air Force bought Wing Long II

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> I was not sure and asked detresfa_, and he said, he thinks they are for the PAF, but I welcome every correction.
> 
> By the way ....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430505459727802369


it is possible yes But as far as we know the Army and Navy purchased CH4A and B models. The Air force bought both WL-1 and WL-2. The Air Force is also going to induct another UCAV it seems, ANKA-S or the PAC MALE UCAV, different weight and size classes for different roles I guess.

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## kursed

Deino said:


> I was not sure and asked detresfa_, and he said, he thinks they are for the PAF, but I welcome every correction.
> 
> By the way ....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430505459727802369


CH-4 are for Army, WL2s were meant for PAF and far greater in number.

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## Tank131

Frankly the fact that each service is buying different drones from the same source (China) for the same purpose is frankly stupid. There needs to be a better alignment between the forces to keep costs down. If the role is the same then get the same drone across services.

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## The Eagle

Tank131 said:


> If the role is the same then get the same drone across services.



Do you see a manufacturer builds different drones for same rule? I don't see different drones inducted with same rule which in the end sounds like, having the likes for the name sake or design. Specific role for particular drone attracts respective service accordingly.


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## farooqbhai007

The Eagle said:


> Do you see a manufacturer builds different drones for same rule? I don't see different drones inducted with same rule which in the end sounds like, having the likes for the name sake or design. Specific role for particular drone attracts respective service accordingly.


yep WL2s are heavy attack and for PAF and the Anka/pac uav are light isr/attack for paf , while Shahpar-2 is simply a ISR UAV with Satcom capabilities , while PAA has CH4s for medium attack role

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## Zarvan

This type of Drone is must for Pakistan's border areas. Specially in forts which are being build along Pak Afghan border and also on Iranian border. This doesn't need a runway and in case of attack on those posts they can immediately deployed. Also on ships. 

@PanzerKiel @Blacklight @Path-Finder

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 780843
> 
> 
> This type of Drone is must for Pakistan's border areas. Specially in forts which are being build along Pak Afghan border and also on Iranian border. This doesn't need a runway and in case of attack on those posts they can immediately deployed. Also on ships.
> 
> @PanzerKiel @Blacklight @Path-Finder



This should be made part of the weapon system to counter huge indian armor threat. Very cheap, big numbers, easily deployable, high rate of survivability due to low rcs and visual signature, can be made locally, no loss of human if it goes down, can be made locally, so many benefits. 
Keep attack helis for critical missions, get these for armor formations attack.

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## Riz

TaimiKhan said:


> This should be made part of the weapon system to counter huge indian armor threat. Very cheap, big numbers, easily deployable, high rate of survivability due to low rcs and visual signature, can be made locally, no loss of human if it goes down, can be made locally, so many benefits.
> Keep attack helis for critical missions, get these for armor formations attack.


There are many VTOL UCAVs in Chinese inventory 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442935363505295370


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## Muhammad Omar

I seriously liked these mini attack drones. These can fly across the border enters the bunker and Boooom

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## Great Janjua

Unless a major rethink in our operational offensive/defensive strategies on border happens, till then these rotary UAV systems will be given zero attention.

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## JamD

sparten said:


> I really thought deeply, before I wrote this Reply. Since you sound like an obnoxious teenager who memorises stuff from Brochures and then uses those in arguments. But I can’t be too mad, I used to be one, going back to the PDF days 20 years ago. Makes me cringe as I enter middle age.
> Lets deal with what you wrote one by one, but first let’s dispense with the silliest bit in your post, that a Repaer could carry 8 Shahpar II…no kt can’, it’s not a B52. The Repear has 7 hard points, and it can carry a little under a 1000 kg, total.
> 
> 1) As far as GIDS is concerned, they don’t have much if any information, they don’t even have a picture in their brochure, just an illistration.
> 
> 
> http://gids.com.pk/GIDS.pdf
> 
> 
> So it’s utterly useless.


I hadn't realized that they had updated their brochure with the Shahpar-II. It is mostly useless but:




as close as possible to a confirmation of SATCOM. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I hadn't realized that they had updated their brochure with the Shahpar-II. It is mostly useless but:
> View attachment 781128
> 
> as close as possible to a confirmation of SATCOM. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I think SATCOM was always on the cards. PakSat-1R was supposed to have X-band transponders. I reckon budgetary issues and possibly supply-side blockers prevented us from acquiring those in time. However, they're loading PakSat-MM1R with both Ku-band and Ka-band, which is solid capability right there. I bet the third satellite will have Ka-band and X-band for sure (to manage both drone operations and SATCOM-based communications for LRMPAs, AEW&C, ISTAR and EW/ELINT).

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

JamD said:


> I hadn't realized that they had updated their brochure with the Shahpar-II. It is mostly useless but:
> View attachment 781128
> 
> as close as possible to a confirmation of SATCOM. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Composites,Modular design,and 1050km (possibly SATCOM) capability.
Excellent 👌


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## farooqbhai007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think SATCOM was always on the cards. PakSat-1R was supposed to have X-band transponders. I reckon budgetary issues and possibly supply-side blockers prevented us from acquiring those in time. However, they're loading PakSat-MM1R with both Ku-band and Ka-band, which is solid capability right there. I bet the third satellite will have Ka-band and X-band for sure (to manage both drone operations and SATCOM-based communications for LRMPAs, AEW&C, ISTAR and EW/ELINT).


Cant we use the chinese sats for uavs , both our CH4 & WL-2 , have the Satcom dishes installed with their ground control units so


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

farooqbhai007 said:


> Cant we use the chinese sats for uavs , both our CH4 & WL-2 , have the Satcom dishes installed with their ground control units so


The Chinese probably wouldn't want their satellites implicated in any questionable drone usage by foreign customers. They'd actually sell you the satellite (full package) so you can run SATCOM-based operations independently of them. That way, the end-user can do whatever it wants.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Chinese probably wouldn't want their satellites implicated in any questionable drone usage by foreign customers. They'd actually sell you the satellite (full package) so you can run SATCOM-based operations independently of them. That way, the end-user can do whatever it wants.


Do operators of American UCAVs (India, Britain, Italy, Morocco, Turkey etc..) use their own satellites? Or is this unique to the Chinese? 
Is SATCOM expensive? Or is it a one time cost?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Moon said:


> Do operators of American UCAVs (India, Britain, Italy, Morocco, Turkey etc..) use their own satellites? Or is this unique to the Chinese?
> Is SATCOM expensive? Or is it a one time cost?


The US and UK have a special relationship (from a defence standpoint, they operate as one force many times). I'd say this extends to the US' relationship with other core NATO countries (e.g., Italy, Spain, Germany, etc) as well as Japan and South Korea.

The Turks don't operate major US-origin UAVs. Rather, they've designed and built their own -- e.g., Anka-S, TB2, etc -- and are moving towards building their own SATCOM capabilities with their own satellites. The Indians have their own communications satellite set-up (INSAT). The Brazilians ordered a really capable comms satellite (Ka-band and X-band) from France.

So, I wouldn't say it's unique to the Chinese. Unless you're really close with the U.S., you'll almost certainly invest in your own communications satellite(s). There's no point tying yourself to the hip with another country unless you're co-investing in a joint satellite capability (which would make sense for global navigation and location services like GPS or GNSS).

Satellites are a recurring cost because the systems themselves have a limited lifespan in space. You'll need to replace them every 12-15 years or so. However, it's not all bad considering that cycling gives you the opportunity to leverage new-generation transponders and other subsystems for better performance. This recurring aspect to satellites makes in-house satellite production and indigenous SLVs pretty important, and I expect we'll hear from Pakistan on both fronts in the next 5-7 years.

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## sparten

We need our own MILSAT network and until we have our own boosters, yeah we will struggle.


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## Zarvan



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## Moon

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 781290


Did we buy these?
Why not the NORINCO CR500?


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## Zarvan

Moon said:


> Did we buy these?
> Why not the NORINCO CR500?


No we haven't bought these but I really hope we do. Because either these ones or Norinco CR 500 are must for our border posts.

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## Moon

Zarvan said:


> No we haven't bought these but I really hope we do. Because either these ones or Norinco CR 500 are must for our border posts.


If we can get them cheap enough, the entire counter terrorism scene can change. Along with WAMI capable drones.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

ANALYSIS: HOW PAKISTAN CAN DESIGN A LOYAL WINGMAN DRONE 

By Syed Aseem Ul-Islam

_*Author Profile:* Syed Aseem Ul Islam is a Research Scholar at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA, specializing in adaptive and model-predictive flight control systems. He received his bachelor’s degree in aerospace engineering from the Institute of Space Technology, Islamabad, and his master’s and Ph.D. degrees in flight dynamics and control from the University of Michigan._

A previous article discussed how the goals and projects under Project Azm needed to be reoriented to make them achievable within the constraints of Pakistan’s aerospace ecosystem and the realities of TAI’s existing and substantial investment into its TFX program. That article had argued that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) should be pursuing a loyal wingman unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) project instead of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) program. This article will propose a possible roadmap for such a program.

The proposed program envisions two UCAV’s (named ‘Vafadar-1’ and ‘Vafadar-2’ for the purpose of this article). Vafadar-1 would serve as the first step in PAC’s quest towards developing a loyal wingman program. It can serve as a testbed for technologies and be a relatively lower-risk and lower-cost UCAV program. Towards the end of the Vafadar-1 program, the Vafadar-2 program could be started, which will build upon the successes of its predecessor. Vafadar-2 would be bigger, more capable, and more expensive than Vafadar-1. Both loyal wingman UCAV’s will present the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Turkish Air Force (TuAF), and potential export customers with two options that can work together seamlessly and provide the perfect mix of low and high-end loyal wingman capability.

Designing, constructing, and flying these UCAVs that are approaching manned fighter jets in complexity will give PAC valuable experience and build the human resource and infrastructure that it is currently lacking. Embarking on this program will build the foundations on which PAC will become capable of designing and building large parts of a manned fighter jet, as is the vision under Project Azm.

*Involving Private Industry*
Since the design and development of these UCAVs will be a paradigm shift for Pakistan’s aerospace industry, this will make it the perfect time to start involving the private sector in the program.

PAC should put out a requirement for the Vafadar-1 loyal-wingman UCAV and invite proposals from Pakistani aerospace companies, such as Integrated Dynamics, Woot Tech, and Satuma.

Obviously, these companies currently do not have the capacity to undertake a program of such complexity. Thus, the intention of involving these companies in the program is to gradually build their capacity. Their proposals should include their own capacity enhancement plans and how they intend to collaborate with PAC and other private companies in order to account for their individual deficiencies. For example, Solunux may be invited for expertise on turbines, Sherani engineering may be invited for expertise jigs and assemblies, and East-West-Infiniti may be invited for expertise in electronics. In Western fashion, two consortiums of private companies might be selected as finalists and two competing designs for Vafadar-1 might be taken to the prototype stage.

Copied from Quwa.org
https://quwa.org/

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD  is PAC working on loyal wingman drone?or this is just idea by Quwa org?

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## Riz

Moon said:


> If we can get them cheap enough, the entire counter terrorism scene can change. Along with WAMI capable drones.


Until we have FC for sacrifices, we are not going to invest on these modern machines

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## sparten

JamD said:


> I hadn't realized that they had updated their brochure with the Shahpar-II. It is mostly useless but:
> View attachment 781128
> 
> as close as possible to a confirmation of SATCOM. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Very little has been publically declared about it. All that is includes i) it exists and ii) its a MALE.
OSINT account on Twitter has occasionally shown it in operation.


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## Windjammer

IDET 2021: Pakistan’s armed Shahpar-II undergoing flight trials


Pakistan’s Global Industrial Defence & Solutions was present at the IDET exhibition in Brno during October 6-8, showcasing a range of systems including the Shahpar-II unmanned aerial vehicle




www.key.aero

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## SD 10

Windjammer said:


> IDET 2021: Pakistan’s armed Shahpar-II undergoing flight trials
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s Global Industrial Defence & Solutions was present at the IDET exhibition in Brno during October 6-8, showcasing a range of systems including the Shahpar-II unmanned aerial vehicle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.key.aero


any specs?


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## farooqbhai007

SD 10 said:


> any specs?

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## Zarvan



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## farooqbhai007

@PanzerKiel Our current Air base infrastrcuture is incapable of *housing *larger UAVs , the purpose built UAV bases we have , contain too small hangars which are already reached their maximum capacity with Shahpar-1/Shahpar-2/Burraq/Uqab UAVs , while even the Mianwali Airbase where the WL2s have been spotted only have < a dozen shelters capable of supporting large UAVs , so the question arises will we see new drone airbases like what PAF has done in the past

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> @PanzerKiel Our current Air base infrastrcuture is incapable of *housing *larger UAVs , the purpose built UAV bases we have , contain too small hangars which are already reached their maximum capacity with Shahpar-1/Shahpar-2/Burraq/Uqab UAVs , while even the Mianwali Airbase where the WL2s have been spotted only have < a dozen shelters capable of supporting large UAVs , so the question arises will we see new drone airbases like what PAF has done in the past


There are already separate air bases exclusively for UAVs having a secondary option for fixed wing aircraft.

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## Bossman

farooqbhai007 said:


> @PanzerKiel Our current Air base infrastrcuture is incapable of *housing *larger UAVs , the purpose built UAV bases we have , contain too small hangars which are already reached their maximum capacity with Shahpar-1/Shahpar-2/Burraq/Uqab UAVs , while even the Mianwali Airbase where the WL2s have been spotted only have < a dozen shelters capable of supporting large UAVs , so the question arises will we see new drone airbases like what PAF has done in the past



Among other there are exclusive MALE UAV bases at Murid, Bhawalpur, Sukkur. They might share the runway but their hangers etc. are separate. For smaller UAVs
Mangla is the main base.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Is this news correct that GIDS will reveal Armed version of Shahpar at Egyptian defence expo between 29 November &2 Oct?


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## farooqbhai007

Bossman said:


> Among other there are exclusive MALE UAV bases at Murid, Bhawalpur, Sukkur. They might share the runway but their hangers etc. are separate. For smaller UAVs
> Mangla is the main base.


*1*. i literally mentioned " the purpose built UAV bases we have " in my message above
*2*. Neither of these bases ( Murid/Sukkur ) can accomodate MALE UAVs at the moment as they are at full capacity , they are purely used by older types of Shahpar-1/Shahpar-2/Burraq/Uqab/Falco series UAV and with Shahpar-2 entering service , those *Shahpar-2s are being assigned here *and so it wont be possible to accommodate new MALE UAVs such as the WL-2 , Anka & the PAC one especially given the high amount of orders on those drones
*3*. Bhawalpur is the only MALE UAV base so far , but it is also a Army aviation base and the UAVs based are CH4s which are then again operated by the PAA and not PAF , so that still goes against my point of having no space in the exsisting infrastructre for PAF UAVs


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## Scorpiooo

How many WL2 and Anka to be inducted?

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## ghazi52



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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> How many WL2 and Anka to be inducted?


Wing Long II number reported in Chinese media is more then 50. As for ANKA no clue. But if Pakistan is going to produce them Pakistan won't be producing it if we are going to just induct 10 to 15. If we are going to produce them then you can be sure that we would induct at least 50 of them also.

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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> Wing Long II number reported in Chinese media is more then 50. As for ANKA no clue. But if Pakistan is going to produce them Pakistan won't be producing it if we are going to just induct 10 to 15. If we are going to produce them then you can be sure that we would induct at least 50 of them also.


But when it reported by Chinese numbers for WL2 was 48 and to assembled at PAC, but now we are just importing them instead moving local assembly of Anka , so numbers might we swapped


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## farooqbhai007

Scorpiooo said:


> But when it reported by Chinese numbers for WL2 was 48 and to assembled at PAC, but now we are just importing them instead moving local assembly of Anka , so numbers might we swapped


It was reported by Indian news channels ,


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## Moon

Zarvan said:


> Wing Long II number reported in Chinese media is more then 50. As for ANKA no clue. But if Pakistan is going to produce them Pakistan won't be producing it if we are going to just induct 10 to 15. If we are going to produce them then you can be sure that we would induct at least 50 of them also.


Maybe military is looking to replace most of the Mushak fleet with drones as well? That's the only way I see justification of such a big number (if true).
Or there's been a massive push within the military to embrace the emerging more disruptive technologies. 
Or maybe for export?

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## Zarvan

Moon said:


> Maybe military is looking to replace most of the Mushak fleet with drones as well? That's the only way I see justification of such a big number (if true).
> Or there's been a massive push within the military to embrace the emerging more disruptive technologies.
> Or maybe for export?


First reason is lack of Fighter jets. We can't afford that many fighter jets. So Drones are good alternate specially for bombing missions close to border. Export also will be a major goal. And yes finally our forces are learning to adopt new trends and technologies along with few other reasons.

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## farooqbhai007

Ah yes 

> PAF doesn't induct male UAVs 

Oh no the rest of the world have inducted male UAVs , we are so far behind , why don't we induct new UAVs , look at Armenia , the PAF policy planners are shit who don't care 

> PAF inducts male uavs

Why is the PAF inducting so many uavs , do they even have a budget for that , how will they operate the uavs , why are they inducting light male uavs , why are we not making them and instead only importing them

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## Moon

Zarvan said:


> First reason is lack of Fighter jets. We can't afford that many fighter jets. So Drones are good alternate specially for bombing missions close to border. Export also will be a major goal. And yes finally our forces are learning to adopt new trends and technologies along with few other reasons.


I think this move should be welcomed, drones reduce operational costs, greatly increase combat endurance as well boost intelligence and reconnaissance. One less F-7P
squadron (or other 3rd gen squadron) can mean 2-3 dozen MALE UCAVs, which by all means is a massive boost to PAFs ISR capabilities.
Turks are trying (or already have) equipped Anka with a miniaturised AESA radar, which can be a potent force multiplier. Now imagine if we get a ToT for that, and equip all our WL-2s and CH-4s with them. It'd be a game changer.

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## Scorpiooo

We will seeing alot of drones in coming year in PAF, PAA and PNAR

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## Awan68

Moon said:


> Maybe military is looking to replace most of the Mushak fleet with drones as well? That's the only way I see justification of such a big number (if true).
> Or there's been a massive push within the military to embrace the emerging more disruptive technologies.
> Or maybe for export?


Mushaks cant be replaced by drones, they serve as pilot trainers.


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## Moon

Awan68 said:


> Mushaks cant be replaced by drones, they serve as pilot trainers.


I meant in observation roles, for scouting and guiding artillery.

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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> We will seeing alot of drones in coming year in PAF, PAA and PNAR


I agree. There are multiple advantages to having a Drone fleet. Less cost, saving up on human lives in case of loss, lower profiles may mean difficulty in radar visualizing the platform. Now the technology is maturing and becoming more accessible, there will be increasing use of drones. There will however, still be doubts about its utility in a theatre of war like the Indo Pak one where 2 relatively equally balanced sides will be a limiting factor in drone usage.
A

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## farooqbhai007

araz said:


> I agree. There are multiple advantages to having a Drone fleet. Less cost, saving up on human lives in case of loss, lower profiles may mean difficulty in radar visualizing the platform. Now the technology is maturing and becoming more accessible, there will be increasing use of drones. There will however, still be doubts about its utility in a theatre of war like the Indo Pak one where 2 relatively equally balanced sides will be a limiting factor in drone usage.
> A


we have already retired our first runway launched drone ( PN's UQAB-2 2010-2017 )
Likely replaced by the Luna-NG UAVs


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## Scorpiooo

Awan68 said:


> Mushaks cant be replaced by drones, they serve as pilot trainers.


They mean for PAA, not for PAF


araz said:


> I agree. There are multiple advantages to having a Drone fleet. Less cost, saving up on human lives in case of loss, lower profiles may mean difficulty in radar visualizing the platform. Now the technology is maturing and becoming more accessible, there will be increasing use of drones. There will however, still be doubts about its utility in a theatre of war like the Indo Pak one where 2 relatively equally balanced sides will be a limiting factor in drone usage.
> A


In war alot of drones will be consumed as one way bomb carrier... they may hit target or destroy on they way but consuming expensive A 2A missile to be destroyed 

Side having maximum numbers will have backups to resend


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> They mean for PAA, not for PAF
> 
> In war alot of drones will be consumed as one way bomb carrier... they may hit target or destroy on they way but consuming expensive A 2A missile to be destroyed
> 
> Side having maximum numbers will have backups to resend


I did not think of things from that perspective. So thanks for pointing it out. My only concern is whether the cost would be worth the effort. Interestingly, PAC getting TOT for ANKA pointstowards local manufacturing which might drive the cost down further. What that cost is likely to be remains to be seen.

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## MIRauf

araz said:


> I did not think of things from that perspective. So thanks for pointing it out. My only concern is whether the cost would be worth the effort. Interestingly, PAC getting TOT for ANKA pointstowards local manufacturing which might drive the cost down further. What that cost is likely to be remains to be seen.


Someone had pointed out here that ANKA was being purchased by NESCOM in a very limited numbers and not directly by PAC/PA/PAF/PN.

Did something change ?


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## SQ8

araz said:


> I did not think of things from that perspective. So thanks for pointing it out. My only concern is whether the cost would be worth the effort. Interestingly, PAC getting TOT for ANKA pointstowards local manufacturing which might drive the cost down further. What that cost is likely to be remains to be seen.


The Karabakh conflict has has a certain influence on the next plans. There is a diverse fleet in planning with assets focused on each layer. From arty spotting to strategic recce to SEAD.

There is an overlap in asset capability but some are different in being capable of hauling ELINT and ECM with possibly a SLAR with GMTi SAR planned.

The Indians are moving rapidly ahead in battlefield analysis and will initially have a superior picture of vehicular movements on Pakistan side.

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## farooqbhai007

MIRauf said:


> Someone had pointed out here that ANKA was being purchased by NESCOM in a very limited numbers and not directly by PAC/PA/PAF/PN.
> 
> Did something change ?


bruh nescom literally got the TOT to make as many Ankas they like .


SQ8 said:


> The Karabakh conflict has has a certain influence on the next plans. There is a diverse fleet in planning with assets focused on each layer. From arty spotting to strategic recce to SEAD.
> 
> There is an overlap in asset capability but some are different in being capable of hauling ELINT and ECM with possibly a SLAR with GMTi SAR planned.
> 
> The Indians are moving rapidly ahead in battlefield analysis and will initially have a superior picture of vehicular movements on Pakistan side.


India where, i dont see em , 
India has literally like only Searchers and heron 1s with simple eo sensor payloads ( except a few mpa radar on IN Herons ) as their UAV fleet , with some 2 MQ-9B on lease with the IN
and we have got
PA has Luna X-2000s , CH4Bs , 
PAF has Falco , Shahpar , Burraq , Shahpar-2 , WL-1 , WL-2
PN has Scan Eagle , Luna NG , CH4B


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## JamD

araz said:


> I did not think of things from that perspective. So thanks for pointing it out. My only concern is whether the cost would be worth the effort. Interestingly, PAC getting TOT for ANKA pointstowards local manufacturing which might drive the cost down further. What that cost is likely to be remains to be seen.


Although the wholehearted adoption of UCAV's by all three services is welcome, the lack of coordination may be a cause of concern. All three services are adopting UCAV's in large numbers, which means they are absorbing them into doctrine, which takes a lot of time. The TOT for Anka is with NESCOM and not PAC. PAC is manufacturing it's own, albeit very similar looking, UCAV under Azm. This is why I'm sort of concerned that there is a lack of coordination between the services.

PAF:
- PAC AZM MALE
- WL2
- AWC Shahpar-I
- PAC Falco
- NESCOM Burraq
- ?? AWC Shahpar-II


PA:
- CH-4
- NESCOM Burraq

PN:
- CH-4
- AWC Uqaab
- Luna NG

NESCOM:
- TOT for Anka, we don't know which service will use them if we buy any - it might just be a contract to make some parts at NESCOM.

So it feels like there's a hotpotch of UAV induction going on across all three services with a lot of redundant systems. I will admit that a certain level of redundancy is useful, even necessary. Hopefully, with time, we will see a more streamlined joint-service based UCAV doctrine, and what we currently see are the first step "toe-dipping".

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Although the wholehearted adoption of UCAV's by all three services is welcome, the lack of coordination may be a cause of concern. All three services are adopting UCAV's in large numbers, which means they are absorbing them into doctrine, which takes a lot of time. The TOT for Anka is with NESCOM and not PAC. PAC is manufacturing it's own, albeit very similar looking, UCAV under Azm. This is why I'm sort of concerned that there is a lack of coordination between the services.
> 
> PAF:
> - PAC AZM MALE
> - WL2
> - AWC Shahpar-I
> - PAC Falco
> - NESCOM Burraq
> - ?? AWC Shahpar-II
> 
> 
> PA:
> - CH-4
> - NESCOM Burraq
> 
> PN:
> - CH-4
> - AWC Uqaab
> - Luna NG
> 
> NESCOM:
> - TOT for Anka, we don't know which service will use them if we buy any - it might just be a contract to make some parts at NESCOM.
> 
> So it feels like there's a hotpotch of UAV induction going on across all three services with a lot of redundant systems. I will admit that a certain level of redundancy is useful, even necessary. Hopefully, with time, we will see a more streamlined joint-service based UCAV doctrine, and what we currently see are the first step "toe-dipping".


I think consolidation (to a handful of different types) will happen when the cost and sophistication of armed UAVs go up. 

But if you think these MALE UAV-type programs are all over the place, then the loitering munition and suicide drone world is the wild west. I'm sure each of the tri-services will just buy stuff in bulk and throw it all against stuff without any real concept of commonality or the like.

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> Although the wholehearted adoption of UCAV's by all three services is welcome, the lack of coordination may be a cause of concern. All three services are adopting UCAV's in large numbers, which means they are absorbing them into doctrine, which takes a lot of time. The TOT for Anka is with NESCOM and not PAC. PAC is manufacturing it's own, albeit very similar looking, UCAV under Azm. This is why I'm sort of concerned that there is a lack of coordination between the services.
> 
> PAF:
> - PAC AZM MALE
> - WL2
> - AWC Shahpar-I
> - PAC Falco
> - NESCOM Burraq
> - ?? AWC Shahpar-II
> 
> 
> PA:
> - CH-4
> - NESCOM Burraq
> 
> PN:
> - CH-4
> - AWC Uqaab
> - Luna NG
> 
> NESCOM:
> - TOT for Anka, we don't know which service will use them if we buy any - it might just be a contract to make some parts at NESCOM.
> 
> So it feels like there's a hotpotch of UAV induction going on across all three services with a lot of redundant systems. I will admit that a certain level of redundancy is useful, even necessary. Hopefully, with time, we will see a more streamlined joint-service based UCAV doctrine, and what we currently see are the first step "toe-dipping".


alot of problems in your text but its not that complicated imo

Burraq & Shahpar-1 are jointly operated by PAF-PA 
PA further operates the Luna X-2000 as smaller UAV and CH4B as medium attack UAV
PAF further operates the Falco as smaller , Shahpar-2 as medium recon and WL-2 as heavy attack UAV 
PN operates the Luna NG as smaller and CH4B as MPA UAV

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## Zarvan

JamD said:


> Although the wholehearted adoption of UCAV's by all three services is welcome, the lack of coordination may be a cause of concern. All three services are adopting UCAV's in large numbers, which means they are absorbing them into doctrine, which takes a lot of time. The TOT for Anka is with NESCOM and not PAC. PAC is manufacturing it's own, albeit very similar looking, UCAV under Azm. This is why I'm sort of concerned that there is a lack of coordination between the services.
> 
> PAF:
> - PAC AZM MALE
> - WL2
> - AWC Shahpar-I
> - PAC Falco
> - NESCOM Burraq
> - ?? AWC Shahpar-II
> 
> 
> PA:
> - CH-4
> - NESCOM Burraq
> 
> PN:
> - CH-4
> - AWC Uqaab
> - Luna NG
> 
> NESCOM:
> - TOT for Anka, we don't know which service will use them if we buy any - it might just be a contract to make some parts at NESCOM.
> 
> So it feels like there's a hotpotch of UAV induction going on across all three services with a lot of redundant systems. I will admit that a certain level of redundancy is useful, even necessary. Hopefully, with time, we will see a more streamlined joint-service based UCAV doctrine, and what we currently see are the first step "toe-dipping".


Trust me there is not. Since Kiyani time. The coordination between all forces have grown by each passing day.

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## Windjammer

Falco UAV assigned to No. 1 UAV Sqn on a night training mission.

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## farooqbhai007

Windjammer said:


> Falco UAV assigned to No. 1 UAV Sqn on a night training mission.
> 
> 
> View attachment 792300


bas ab Wl-2 ki bhi aisi pic aa ayey

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Just throwing this out there, but if getting a CBU-105-like weapon is difficult, why not try loitering munitions?

Basically: Take the Chinese GB6 (analogous to JSOW), but instead of the standard cluster bomblets, load it with small loitering munitions. The GB6 can fly around an area and drop the loitering munitions which, in turn, can be preprogrammed to search and drop on moving vehicles, personnel, etc.

I think this design can carry at least 18-24 loitering munitions. However, you can reduce the size of the loitering munitions even further (e.g., smaller batteries, smaller fans, etc) to pack more of them in. Yes, each munition will lose range, but it doesn't matter since the GB6 will carry them into the combat area. If you really cut the size down of the loitering munition (at the cost of range, which doesn't matter), you could pack 40 of them into one GB6. Thus, you'd have a similar capability to the CBU-105; maybe a little gnarlier if you combine the GB6 to a Fatah-1-type rocket for a ground-launched, stand-off, anti-armour capability.

@SQ8 @JamD @kursed @HRK

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just throwing this out there, but if getting a CBU-105-like weapon is difficult, why not try loitering munitions?
> 
> Basically: Take the Chinese GB6 (analogous to JSOW), but instead of the standard cluster bomblets, load it with small loitering munitions. The GB6 can fly around an area and drop the loitering munitions which, in turn, can be preprogrammed to search and drop on moving vehicles, personnel, etc.
> 
> I think this design can carry at least 18-24 loitering munitions. However, you can reduce the size of the loitering munitions even further (e.g., smaller batteries, smaller fans, etc) to pack more of them in. Yes, each munition will lose range, but it doesn't matter since the GB6 will carry them into the combat area. If you really cut the size down of the loitering munition (at the cost of range, which doesn't matter), you could pack 40 of them into one GB6. Thus, you'd have a similar capability to the CBU-105; maybe a little gnarlier if you combine the GB6 to a Fatah-1-type rocket for a ground-launched, stand-off, anti-armour capability.
> 
> @SQ8 @JamD @kursed @HRK
> 
> View attachment 793115
> 
> View attachment 793118


It is on a wish list but no suppliers available either foreign or domestic

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## HRK

SQ8 said:


> It is on a wish list but no suppliers available either foreign or domestic


During the time of ex-ACM Sohail Aman tenure one engagement with Poland was made do you have any idea about the out come






Detail about this loitering munition 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just throwing this out there, but if getting a CBU-105-like weapon is difficult, why not try loitering munitions?
> 
> Basically: Take the Chinese GB6 (analogous to JSOW), but instead of the standard cluster bomblets, load it with small loitering munitions. The GB6 can fly around an area and drop the loitering munitions which, in turn, can be preprogrammed to search and drop on moving vehicles, personnel, etc.
> 
> I think this design can carry at least 18-24 loitering munitions. However, you can reduce the size of the loitering munitions even further (e.g., smaller batteries, smaller fans, etc) to pack more of them in. Yes, each munition will lose range, but it doesn't matter since the GB6 will carry them into the combat area. If you really cut the size down of the loitering munition (at the cost of range, which doesn't matter), you could pack 40 of them into one GB6. Thus, you'd have a similar capability to the CBU-105; maybe a little gnarlier if you combine the GB6 to a Fatah-1-type rocket for a ground-launched, stand-off, anti-armour capability.
> 
> @SQ8 @JamD @kursed @HRK
> 
> View attachment 793115
> 
> View attachment 793118



Idea is great but like many programs and Ideas for our arm forces we do not have knowledge of current status.

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## farooqbhai007

farooqbhai007 said:


> @PanzerKiel Our current Air base infrastrcuture is incapable of *housing *larger UAVs , the purpose built UAV bases we have , contain too small hangars which are already reached their maximum capacity with Shahpar-1/Shahpar-2/Burraq/Uqab UAVs , while even the Mianwali Airbase where the WL2s have been spotted only have < a dozen shelters capable of supporting large UAVs , so the question arises will we see new drone airbases like what PAF has done in the past


Like i had said before that our current infrastructure is not capable of sustaining such a large number of MALE UAVs and that we need more purpose built airbases for MALE UAVs , especially now that drones are being delivered in such large numbers ( i think its safe to say that ~100 MALE UAVs of different kinds are on order excluding PAC-1/Anka which are unconfirmed ) ,
PN has also recieved all of its CH4Bs ( large number ), and PAF has received more WL-2s which have been deployed in COIN ops by the looks of it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> During the time of ex-ACM Sohail Aman tenure one engagement with Poland was made do you have any idea about the out come
> 
> View attachment 793179
> 
> 
> Detail about this loitering munition
> 
> 
> Idea is great but like many programs and Ideas for our arm forces we do not have knowledge of current status.


I think the armed forces are looking for loitering munitions. But like most of our munitions, they'll probably get what's available off-the-shelf.

Now, to be fair, it's not the worst idea to buy off-the-shelf in this case. Because this technology is so new, I think the industry will iterate rapidly. It would not be a good idea to sink funds on overhead for a weapon that'll go out-of-date in a few years.

So, I think the armed forces will buy in batches of whatever's the latest and available. They'll be in small increments, but frequent orders to keep up with technology advances.

Ideally, we'd nurture our industry to start R&D on the technology and also join in rapid iteration and development. I.D.E.A.L.L.Y.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the armed forces are looking for loitering munitions. But like most of our munitions, they'll probably get what's available off-the-shelf.
> 
> Now, to be fair, it's not the worst idea to buy off-the-shelf in this case. Because this technology is so new, I think the industry will iterate rapidly. It would not be a good idea to sink funds on overhead for a weapon that'll go out-of-date in a few years.
> 
> So, I think the armed forces will buy in batches of whatever's the latest and available. They'll be in small increments, but frequent orders to keep up with technology advances.
> 
> Ideally, we'd nurture our industry to start R&D on the technology and also join in rapid iteration and development. I.D.E.A.L.L.Y.


You must be aware about the capabilities NRTC has and If somehow it can collaborate with POF for loitering munition then I think with their combine effort they could come up with some inhouse solution

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460943909496844289

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460943909496844289


Ab azm male ucav b in action a jae
Tu ware niare hi ho jaen


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460943909496844289


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Ab azm male ucav b in action a jae
> Tu ware niare hi ho jaen


We would see that soon in action.

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## Raja Porus



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## Sohail Niazai

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460943909496844289
> We would see that soon in action.


Looks like development aircraft, it has yellow and green colors like that of under-development one/.


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## farooqbhai007

Sohail Niazai said:


> Looks like development aircraft, it has yellow and green colors like that of under-development one/.


The footage is from WL2 weapon trials from years back in China.
As of now there is no image or video that shows the Pakistani WL2 except sat imagery

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## Zarvan

Sohail Niazai said:


> Looks like development aircraft, it has yellow and green colors like that of under-development one/.


The video they posted is few years old. The video is only for reference. It's fully functional.


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## JamD

Deino said:


> Interesting! PAF (?) CH-4 revealed!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430478393678630914


Not sure if I am just grasping at straws but it would appear that the four CH-4's came in the four shipping containers each. Do we know if one can fit inside a standard shipping container? That would be a neat way to move them around discretely.

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## Akh1112

JamD said:


> Not sure if I am just grasping at straws but it would appear that the four CH-4's came in the four shipping containers each. Do we know if one can fit inside a standard shipping container? That would be a neat way to move them around discretely.
> View attachment 796271


@farooqbhai007 this is ur territory

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> Not sure if I am just grasping at straws but it would appear that the four CH-4's came in the four shipping containers each. Do we know if one can fit inside a standard shipping container? That would be a neat way to move them around discretely.
> View attachment 796271



Every drone fits inside a shipping container , from Chinese CH4 to American RQ4 all fit inside shipping containers.
ISO 30 or ISO 40ft containers are used for this.
So yeah these 4 shipping containers are indeed for CH4 , and thats actually how u track drone deployments , since shipping containers are large and need a crane to be of loaded so they are placed outside hangars and that tells you that there is drone there. Same case for India and the rest of the world.
P.S a shipping container also appeared outside a hangar at paf base in Quetta recently , WL2 gonna appear soon there ,

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> Lol
> Every drone fits inside a shipping container , from Chinese CH4 to American RQ4 all fit inside shipping containers.
> ISO 30 or ISO 40ft containers are used for this.
> So yeah these 4 shipping containers are indeed for CH4 , and thats actually how u track drone deployments , since shipping containers are large and need a crane to be of loaded so they are placed outside hangars and that tells you that there is drone there. Same case for India and the rest of the world.
> P.S a shipping container also appeared outside a hangar at paf base in Quetta recently , WL2 gonna appear soon there ,


Thank you for the insightful response!

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## Tamiyah

JamD said:


> Not sure if I am just grasping at straws but it would appear that the four CH-4's came in the four shipping containers each. Do we know if one can fit inside a standard shipping container? That would be a neat way to move them around discretely.
> View attachment 796271


Pakistani ”Raj47”.

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## JamD

Tamiyah said:


> Pakistani ”Raj47”.

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> View attachment 796278


Should the Drone use one of its pylons to carry a self-defense pod or rely on a dedicated EW drone for providing a wall against jamming it. EW and jamming a drone is a major concern in UAS Operations.

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## Areesh

farooqbhai007 said:


> P.S a shipping container also appeared outside a hangar at paf base in Quetta recently , WL2 gonna appear soon there ,



BLA. We are coming for you


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## Signalian

Areesh said:


> BLA. We are coming for you


How many sorties of Burraq and how many firing instances of Barq were used against BLA ?


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## farooqbhai007

Signalian said:


> How many sorties of Burraq and how many firing instances of Barq were used against BLA ?


Afaik the PAA CH4B has already been used in combat ops against the BLA and TTP. 
The PN can also complement these PAA missions to take responsibility of the southern sector by sending in their own CH4B drones to do Coin ops, as the southern sector which currently lacks WL2 or CH4 drones since those are all currently based in North ( Bhawalpur , Quetta , Mianwali ).

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## Vapnope

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) since you mentioned CBU105, there was a talk of similar weapon being developed with Turkey. Whatever happened to that?
Also Hijara is similar in context, why not further develop it?

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## JamD

Signalian said:


> Should the Drone use one of its pylons to carry a self-defense pod or rely on a dedicated EW drone for providing a wall against jamming it. EW and jamming a drone is a major concern in UAS Operations.


Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.

Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.

That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.

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## iLION12345_1

farooqbhai007 said:


> Every drone fits inside a shipping container , from Chinese CH4 to American RQ4 all fit inside shipping containers.
> ISO 30 or ISO 40ft containers are used for this.
> So yeah these 4 shipping containers are indeed for CH4 , and thats actually how u track drone deployments , since shipping containers are large and need a crane to be of loaded so they are placed outside hangars and that tells you that there is drone there. Same case for India and the rest of the world.
> P.S a shipping container also appeared outside a hangar at paf base in Quetta recently , WL2 gonna appear soon there ,


4 containers outside Nur Khan today as well. Apart from the Turkish A400M visit as you mentioned.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> 4 containers outside Nur Khan today as well. Apart from the Turkish A400M visit as you mentioned.


Hope they have PAC Male UCAV


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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.
> 
> Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.
> 
> That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.


WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.

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## Akh1112

farooqbhai007 said:


> WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.



To second this, there’s a few other Chinese UAVs marketed with SPJ pods. Though realistically, I don’t think these drones are important enough to employ these on.

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.


Which ones exactly? If they are self-protection jamming pods then those are not what @Signalian is talking about.


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## Akh1112

JamD said:


> Which ones exactly? If they are self-protection jamming pods then those are not what @Signalian is talking about.




You'd be right in that case, power generation capacity would be a big one, another one i wonder about would be bandwidth/latency.
The ability to react in time, quickly, would be limited

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.
> 
> Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.
> 
> That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.


The Mücke version of the KZO drone carries a VHF/UHF EA payload and also has a programmable radar jammer onboard that transmits in the 20 MHz to 110 MHz band or the 100 MHz to 500 MHz band to attack voice and data communications. Rheinmetall Defence Electronics has also developed the Fledermaus ES drone version of the KZO, which includes systems to intercept and acquire radar and radio transmissions that provide the position information and signal characteristics of the targets.








China has ASN-206/207 UAV for electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) roles, the UAV is fitted with a JN-1102 EW/ECM suite, which can scan, intercept, analyse, monitor, and jam enemy ground-to-air communications at 20~500MHz. The system consists of a UAV-mounted intercept subsystem, a UAV-mounted jamming subsystem and a ground-based intercept and jamming control subsystem.






And there are more too. Australian, American, British, French etc.

Do you have access to this ?

M. Kunkel, “EA/SIGINT Payloads for UAVs: Assessing the International Market for EW Payloads on UAVs,” Journal of Electronic Defense.

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## JamD

Signalian said:


> The Mücke version of the KZO drone carries a VHF/UHF EA payload and also has a programmable radar jammer onboard that transmits in the 20 MHz to 110 MHz band or the 100 MHz to 500 MHz band to attack voice and data communications. Rheinmetall Defence Electronics has also developed the Fledermaus ES drone version of the KZO, which includes systems to intercept and acquire radar and radio transmissions that provide the position information and signal characteristics of the targets.
> View attachment 796435
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has ASN-206/207 UAV for electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) roles, the UAV is fitted with a JN-1102 EW/ECM suite, which can scan, intercept, analyse, monitor, and jam enemy ground-to-air communications at 20~500MHz. The system consists of a UAV-mounted intercept subsystem, a UAV-mounted jamming subsystem and a ground-based intercept and jamming control subsystem.
> 
> View attachment 796438
> 
> 
> And there are more too. Australian, American, British, French etc.


@farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.




Signalian said:


> Do you have access to this ?
> 
> M. Kunkel, “EA/SIGINT Payloads for UAVs: Assessing the International Market for EW Payloads on UAVs,” Journal of Electronic Defense.


Nope. Post the pdf?


----------



## Akh1112

JamD said:


> @farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Post the pdf?




well, low power stuff is doable, even the ANKA-S carries a huge ECM suite, though dedicated electronic attack is something i question wrt these kinda drones, however, stuff like MALD-J and Brimstone EW i guess could be what you're after, though, the benefit of these big powerful arrays is that you have so much power to overcome countermeasures and stuff.

Just a fun little thing, iirc there was a 707 based EW testbed that was almost as capable as like 100 EA-6's or something absurd, it was ditched for being too powerful from memory

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> @farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Post the pdf?


Both CH4 and WL2 carry the SIGINT/COMINT pod on the underbelly hard point so that didn't effect their normal loadout

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## farooqbhai007

Indonesian CH4 SIGINT version with a large SIGINT/COMINT pod and more antennas on the drone body during a recent flight.





WL2 marketed at Zuhai with compact SIGINT/COMINT pod ,




and then the same pod during a flight at a demo at zuhai 2021.

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> @farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Post the pdf?


SIGINT sensors, could be used to cue other sensors on a UAV, and they offered much longer detection ranges than EO/IR and SAR sensors as per Journal of Electronic Defense, vol. 29, iss. 8, Gainesville: August 2006 edition. SIGINT Ops and electronic support measures can form a basis for EW Ops which can then lead to SEAD/DEAD and jamming. So im thinking ahead of SIGINT towards different types of jamming through UAVs.


farooqbhai007 said:


> Indonesian CH4 SIGINT version with a large SIGINT/COMINT pod and more antennas on the drone body during a recent flight.
> View attachment 796480
> 
> 
> WL2 marketed at Zuhai with compact SIGINT/COMINT pod ,
> View attachment 796481
> 
> and then the same pod during a flight at a demo at zuhai 2021.
> View attachment 796482


Turkish KORAL EW/EMS system was able to jam Chinese drones as well as Pantsir S-1s.

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## Akh1112

Signalian said:


> SIGINT sensors, could be used to cue other sensors on a UAV, and they offered much longer detection ranges than EO/IR and SAR sensors as per Journal of Electronic Defense, vol. 29, iss. 8, Gainesville: August 2006 edition. SIGINT Ops and electronic support measures can form a basis for EW Ops which can then lead to SEAD/DEAD and jamming. So im thinking ahead of SIGINT towards different types of jamming through UAVs.
> 
> Turkish KORAL EW/EMS system was able to jam Chinese drones as well as Pantsir S-1s.



With newer satcom systems this gets more complex as they’re able to drop their emissions below the noise floor to make them harder to detect, pick apart and then jam. Alongside that, they are introducing phased array antennas which once again complicates this task

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## Signalian

Akh1112 said:


> With newer satcom systems this gets more complex as they’re able to drop their emissions below the noise floor to make them harder to detect, pick apart and then jam. Alongside that, they are introducing phased array antennas which once again complicates this task


Russia is working on improving its comm and AD networks after Turkish drones scored hits in Syria. 

Smaller (not micro) drones seem to best in combat as they are cheaply produced, can carry a decent payload and are replaceable in war though Turkey found it was not easy to replace shot down drones during war. These smaller drones can penetrate enemy air space easily than bigger drones, and can approach closer to the target emitters compared with aircraft because of their smaller RCS; therefore they need less power for effective jamming and because of their very small IR signatures and RCS there can be ambiguity that the AD missiles will fuse correctly and destroy them. Large drones can carry bigger payload but are costly to replace if shot down.

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## TsAr

Signalian said:


> Russia is working on improving its comm and AD networks after Turkish drones scored hits in Syria.
> 
> Smaller (not micro) drones seem to best in combat as they are cheaply produced, can carry a decent payload and are replaceable in war though Turkey found it was not easy to replace shot down drones during war. These smaller drones can penetrate enemy air space easily than bigger drones, and can approach closer to the target emitters compared with aircraft because of their smaller RCS; therefore they need less power for effective jamming and because of their very small IR signatures and RCS there can be ambiguity that the AD missiles will fuse correctly and destroy them. Large drones can carry bigger payload but are costly to replace if shot down.


That's the thing with EW systems and Jammers, you need to keep on enhancing and upgrading the systems, as the enemy would also do so. Whoever is quick to learn and implement will win the next battle.

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## python-000

*Pakistan Missile Test on Shahper II...*

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465225414272557056

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465218917979332613

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## Riz



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## ghazi52

*Pakistan’s GIDS Unveils MALE UAV*





Pakistan defence conglomerate Global Defence and Industrial Solutions (GIDS) has unveiled an armed version of its SHAHPAR-II medium altitude long endurance (MALE) reconnaissance drone at Egypt Defence Expo EDEX 2021. 

The drone is armed with two new Burq (advanced) semi-active laser guided air to ground munitions with a range of 8 kilometres, developed by NESCOM Pakistan, on two weapons stations able to handle 60 kgs of municipal each. 

The drone has a service ceiling of 20,000 feet for surveillance and 18,000 feet for attack missions, an endurance of 14 hours for surveillance and 7 hours for attack missions, and a real-time data link range of 300 kilometres plus SATCOM BLoS capabilities at the drone’s full ranges of 1,050 kilometres. 

The drone also features automated takeoff and landing, retractable landing gears, asymmetric landing and incorporates composites in the airframe to make the drone lighter and more aerodynamically maneuverable. 

Several types of surveillance payloads can also be integrated into the armed drome, including the new Zumr-II EO/IR turret, and targeting pod, and synthetic aperture radars (SAR) as well as COMINT/ELIMT payloads.

The drone is Pakistan’s entry into the mid-range tactical MALE UCAV market, to complement the TB-2 but with a more competitive price.

It is expected that the Pakistan Armed Forces will be the first customer of the drone, before being offered to likely several countries in Africa, South America, and the Middle East. 

The Pakistan Armed Forces would be able to produce the drone in large quantities as and when needed, giving it a considerable boost in tactical armed drone capabilities and a versatile, relatively cheap, indigenous armour-killer for use on the eastern front.

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## MIRauf

ghazi52 said:


> *Pakistan’s GIDS Unveils MALE UAV*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan defence conglomerate Global Defence and Industrial Solutions (GIDS) has unveiled an armed version of its SHAHPAR-II medium altitude long endurance (MALE) reconnaissance drone at Egypt Defence Expo EDEX 2021.
> 
> The drone is armed with two new Burq (advanced) semi-active laser guided air to ground munitions with a range of 8 kilometres, developed by NESCOM Pakistan, *on two weapons stations able to handle 60 kgs of municipal each.*
> 
> ...
> ...


Text Quote "*on two weapons stations able to handle 60 kgs of municipal each." *That is awesome, Pak needs hundreds of these to clear out all the dead weight in most of its municipalities through out the country. However, something tells me that they will have to up the carrying capacity by double or triple fold per hard-point.

Also on the twitter post: "feet for attack missions, " taking a wild guess, "fit" is what they were trying to convey ? Correction, "feet" is likely correct, missing leading # in the twitter post.

PS: I work for a Utility owned by a Municipality, thus couldn't resist the joke.

Anyway, end product looks good, good work.

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## ghazi52



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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

New HQ Image





Source:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465362208846753793

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## Windjammer

Wing Loong II seen at Minawali Air Base. It blends well with it's grey apron .

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## farooqbhai007

Windjammer said:


> Wing Loong II seen at Minawali Air Base. It blends well with it's grey apron .
> 
> View attachment 798973


Yea already been covered before , 








Lifting The Veil - Pakistan’s Chinese UCAVs







www.oryxspioenkop.com




p.s the PN has received all of its CH4Bs as well though those are all based out of a single airbase for now ,

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## siegecrossbow

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465225414272557056
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465218917979332613



I was wondering about the improvements it has over CH-3. Thanks for linking the brochures!


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475116690233045000

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## syed_yusuf

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475116690233045000


Do Pakistan have these ?

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## farooqbhai007

The average iq level being displayed here in this particular thread really blows my mind.

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## aziqbal

Turkey has really demonstrated that it leads the World in UAV development and its been proven in Libya, Syria and Azerbaijan 

Pakistan has a very good industry to do this also

but unfortunately Pakistan has too many areas to work on and budget is limited

so we should join hand with Turkey and co-operate more with on the UAV side

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## Super Falcon

How many drones pak planning in future

Why pak not planned Tb 2 drones yet

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## Riz

Where is PAC drone ??


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Super Falcon said:


> How many drones pak planning in future
> 
> Why pak not planned Tb 2 drones yet


Why TB 2 when we have S2?

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## Riz



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## khail007

Riz said:


> View attachment 805377
> 
> View attachment 805378



Sir G, where are they flying? If you ignore the front of the drone in the last pic, it seems like a human being is flying with both his arms wide open - A beautiful scene.

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## Imran Khan

khail007 said:


> Sir G, where are they flying? If you ignore the front of the drone in the last pic, it seems like a human being is flying with both his arms wide open - A beautiful scene.


mustached pehlwan flying

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## Super Falcon

Are pak realy giing to get TB 2 or ankas


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Will PAC's MALE UCAV use same Zumr 2 (along with SAR radar) or PAC will develop its own version? @farooqbhai007 

AERO should continue developing Zumr series. its Turkyie-sh counter part has range of 25km while Zumr 2 has 20km though former weighs 12kg more than Z2.


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## jupiter2007

Pakistan should be developing high altitude drone with built-in EW suite.

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## Imran Khan

Riz said:


> Where is PAC drone ??


just saw him drinking tea on khokha yesterday

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479709514530058241

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## JamD

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479709514530058241


Is this for real?


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## farooqbhai007

koi ni aik maheena wait karlo march mey sab ka pata chal jayey ga
p.s the previous PAF WL-2 , PA CH4 and PN CH4 news by him were all correct so i think its pretty much true

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## Zarvan

JamD said:


> Is this for real?


Yes it's as real as it can get


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## Riz

farooqbhai007 said:


> koi ni aik maheena wait karlo march mey sab ka pata chal jayey ga
> p.s the previous PAF WL-2 , PA CH4 and PN CH4 news by him were all correct so i think its pretty much true


But where is PAC made drone ?


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## araz

farooqbhai007 said:


> koi ni aik maheena wait karlo march mey sab ka pata chal jayey ga
> p.s the previous PAF WL-2 , PA CH4 and PN CH4 news by him were all correct so i think its pretty much true


I cannot make any sense of procurement from multiple sources. Do you have any inkling about the rationale. Help appreciated.
A

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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> I cannot make any sense of procurement from multiple sources. Do you have any inkling about the rationale. Help appreciated.
> A


Perhaps they are coming with ToT, which is to be utilised in local designs? Perhaps there was an exigent requirement for an anti-armour and air-support platform, and the TB-2 was the most proven and easily procurable option, especially since local designs lacked endurance and payload capacity? Perhaps the rationale constitutes both these conjectures?

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## RAMPAGE

Can someone please tell me why we are not using Mushak's engine in any of our UAVs? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


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## PanzerKiel

TB2 UAV has now been operationalized.

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## ghazi52

*PAKISTAN 





OPERATIONALISES ‘TANK-KILLER’ BAYRAKTAR TB-2 DRONE*


The Pakistan Air Force has operationalised the Bayraktar TB-2 medium altitude long endurance (MALE) tactical UCAV armed drone for service. An initial batch of the drone and all associated equipment were procured in mid-2021 by Pakistan in a deal with Baykar Defence of Turkey, which also included joint production and development of the larger Anka-S MALE UCAV drone and its future variants.

The TB-2 is a MALE UCAV drone capable of a 27 hour endurance and a flight ceiling of 25,000 feet. The MTOW of the drone is 1,430 pounds, enabling it to carry a variety of ATGMs, air to ground precision munitions and rockets on its four hard points. The TB-2 also provides excellent Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) capabilities with a variety of electrooptical paylods. An onboard avionic suite with a triple redundant avionic system encompasses units enabling a fully autonomous taxiing, take-off, landing and cruise.

The TB-2 has SATCOM capabilities as well as datalink (300 km range) and has a 150 kg weapons capacity. The SATCOM full range of the drone is not available publicly but rumoured to be 1000 km. The drone also has excellent ECCM capabilities, being able to subdue and resist Russian electronic warfare attacks in Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh.

The standard avionics payload configuration includes an electro-optical (EO) camera module, an infrared (IR) camera module, a laser designator, a laser range finder (LRF) and a laser pointer. The TB-2 also has an option to integrate Synthetic Aperture Radars (SAR) and an AESA radar for airborne surveillance purposes. Standard weapons include 4 MAM-L and MAM-C highly precise GPS/INS guided smart munitions with 8-14 km ranges.

The TB-2 has completed over 400,000 operational flight hours. The TB-2’s anti-armour capabilities are extremely combat proven and extensive. During wartime, the TB2 could survey and detect enemy mechanised formations, air defence sites and troop concentrations either through its signals intelligence arsenal or the impressively long range of its EO/IR sensor (believed to be over 75km against targets such as vehicles), which would then be engaged either directly by TB-2s, or the information could be relayed via datalink to Pakistan's other strike options such as the Fateh-1 long range guided MLRS.

The TB-2 provides the PAF with a highly effective & combat proven tactical unmanned ISTAR+strike platform, especially for penetrating air defences and conducting strikes on both enemy air defence infrastructure and equipment and the integrated battle groups they are protecting.
It is likely the the drones will be shown for the first time to the Pakistani public on the Pakistan Day Parade this year on 23rd March.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> TB2 UAV has now been operationalized.


Sir will they be inducted in same number as WING LONG II

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## Reichsmarschall

PanzerKiel said:


> TB2 UAV has now been operationalized.


Will they be used in Balochistan?


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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> TB2 UAV has now been operationalized.


By that, I mean, the their real use has started recently.

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## Primus

PanzerKiel said:


> By that, I mean, the their real use has started recently.


Can we some combat footage of drone strikes, striking terrorists?

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## farooqbhai007

araz said:


> I cannot make any sense of procurement from multiple sources. Do you have any inkling about the rationale. Help appreciated.



it makes sense ,

*PAF*
Shahpar 1 / Shahpar 2* ( Light ISR )*
TB-2 *( Light Attack ) 
*
Anka / Pac UAV *( MALE UAV Light )*
WL-2* ( MALE UAV Heavy )


PA*
CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
To be acquired *( MALE UAV Heavy )


PN*
CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
To be acquired* ( MALE UAV Heavy )


Joint Branch Service*
Burraq *( Light Attack ) 


Unknown user ( Possibly MOI )*
WL-1 *( MALE UAV Light )*

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

PanzerKiel said:


> By that, I mean, the their real use has started recently.


Should have used S2 .
This can prove helpful for GIDS to export some these birds.

What do you think why TB 2 was acquired when S2 was there.


Highly disappointed by this news 😔

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> TB2 UAV has now been operationalized.


can u plz analysis the situation why we are going for these many number of UCAVs systems, If I am not wrong including TB-2 we will have 5 different UCAV systems in Operation and if I count PAC MALE Dron and possible induction of TAI ANKA -S then the number of different system reach 7

So a simple and basic question Why these many different UCAVs ... ??

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> By that, I mean, the their real use has started recently.


Why don't we release the footage. I mean just leak it to some people on twitter.


farooqbhai007 said:


> it makes sense ,
> 
> *PAF*
> Shahpar 1 / Shahpar 2* ( Light ISR )*
> TB-2 *( Light Attack )
> *
> Anka / Pac UAV *( MALE UAV Light )*
> WL-2* ( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> PA*
> CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
> To be acquired *( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> PN*
> CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
> To be acquired* ( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> Joint Branch Service*
> Burraq *( Light Attack )
> 
> 
> Unknown user ( Possibly MOI )*
> WL-1 *( MALE UAV Light )*


Don't include SHAPAR II in the list. Our forces haven't adopted it. This could very well be kept only for export.

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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> Why don't we release the footage. I mean just leak it to some people on twitter.
> 
> Don't include SHAPAR II in the list. Our forces haven't adopted it. This could very well be kept only for export.


Shahpar-2 ISR variant is in service with PAF , it was showed on ACES MEET 2021 poster


HRK said:


> can plz analysis the situation why we are going for these many number of UCAVs systems, If I am not wrong including TB-2 we will have 5 different UCAV systems in Operation and if I count PAC MALE Dron and possible induction of TAI ANKA -S then the number of different system reach 7
> 
> So a simple and basic question Why these many different UCAVs ... ??


i literally sent a big message above up ur post , please read that

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## HRK

farooqbhai007 said:


> i literally sent a big message above up ur post , please read that


I read your post after posting my post .... but even after that I have few queries for which I will wait before to raise here ....


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## syedakm

TB2's induction into PAF and not the PA indicates one thing, they will be used for "Offensive Air-Defence" meaning not just reply solely on medium and long-range SAM systems but to offensively take out enemy's air assets on the ground like it was done in 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh and Libyan war where Turkey was taking out Russian S400 systems on the ground. for COIN related operations, we have enough UAVs to do the job and that is mostly done by the Army, and not PAF UAVs.

TB-2 induction indicates a major doctrinal shift


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## Riz

Its really shameful that we could not able to make a home made drone after being 20 years of fighting against terrorists, we should spent the money on home made drones ,rather then going after multiple platforms from multiple countries

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## farooqbhai007

can we lock this thread till some new news comes or sat imagery gets released .

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## Riz

farooqbhai007 said:


> can we lock this thread till some new news comes or sat imagery gets released .


We need these beasts

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## HRK

Riz said:


> We need these beasts
> View attachment 807078

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

HRK said:


> View attachment 807120


Irony is that these are more beautiful than TB2s but still 😥

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## JamD

My attempt at explaining what seems to be happening:
1. I think we shouldn't view UAVs as manned jets in terms of logistic trains. That is, having 10 different fighter types is super expensive but having 10 different UAV types probably isn't very expensive - especially for these smaller S1/S2/Burraq/TB2 types. There is some value in having diverse assets.
2. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV they can to induct them in large numbers. The capability is being built up FAST.
3. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV so that they can learn to use them well by absorbing them into their doctrine.
4. Operating a wide variety of UAVs will make Pakistani armed forces capable of specifying very very good requirements for local/joint/foreign programs (like how our experience with the F16 fed into the JF-17).
5. This is about point 3 but I think most of these foreign UAV buys are for planned use against India and not anti-terror ops as everyone wants them to be.

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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> My attempt at explaining what seems to be happening:
> 1. I think we shouldn't view UAVs as manned jets in terms of logistic trains. That is, having 10 different fighter types is super expensive but having 10 different UAV types probably isn't very expensive - especially for these smaller S1/S2/Burraq/TB2 types. There is some value in having diverse assets.
> 2. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV they can to induct them in large numbers. The capability is being built up FAST.
> 3. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV so that they can learn to use them well by absorbing them into their doctrine.
> 4. Operating a wide variety of UAVs will make Pakistani armed forces capable of specifying very very good requirements for local/joint/foreign programs (like how our experience with the F16 fed into the JF-17).
> 5. This is about point 3 but I think most of these foreign UAV buys are for planned use against India and not anti-terror ops as everyone wants them to be.


very nice post , the effect isnt gonna last here though , imma give you a hour before another High IQ dude shows up with the Do we have WL-2 or Why are we not using drone air strikes bull shit .

Now putting that aside the only thing i see is a shortage of Infrastructure for the larger drones ( CH4 / WL-2 / Anka / PAC UAV / what ever heavy UAVs PN and PA acquire ) , think so we need more dedicated airbases or a big expansion of current ones for drones as the current ones are at full capacity and were never intended to operate large UAVs.

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## JamD

araz said:


> I cannot make any sense of procurement from multiple sources. Do you have any inkling about the rationale. Help appreciated.
> A





HRK said:


> can u plz analysis the situation why we are going for these many number of UCAVs systems, If I am not wrong including TB-2 we will have 5 different UCAV systems in Operation and if I count PAC MALE Dron and possible induction of TAI ANKA -S then the number of different system reach 7
> 
> So a simple and basic question Why these many different UCAVs ... ??



IMHO:


JamD said:


> My attempt at explaining what seems to be happening:
> 1. I think we shouldn't view UAVs as manned jets in terms of logistic trains. That is, having 10 different fighter types is super expensive but having 10 different UAV types probably isn't very expensive - especially for these smaller S1/S2/Burraq/TB2 types. There is some value in having diverse assets.
> 2. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV they can to induct them in large numbers. The capability is being built up FAST.
> 3. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV so that they can learn to use them well by absorbing them into their doctrine.
> 4. Operating a wide variety of UAVs will make Pakistani armed forces capable of specifying very very good requirements for local/joint/foreign programs (like how our experience with the F16 fed into the JF-17).
> 5. This is about point 3 but I think most of these foreign UAV buys are for planned use against India and not anti-terror ops as everyone wants them to be.







RAMPAGE said:


> Can someone please tell me why we are not using Mushak's engine in any of our UAVs? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


We have speculated that PAC's MALE does indeed use Mushak's engine based on its bhp. But that's really a weak piece of evidence but all that we have.


Huffal said:


> Can we some combat footage of drone strikes, striking terrorists?


While this footage may be pleasing to most of us on this forum, we have to think about the widespread "hearts and minds" aspect of such a "media move". It's best that no footage is ever released and the tool is used. If there is a widespread outcry against the use of UCAVs then what will we do?


farooqbhai007 said:


> Now putting that aside the only thing i see is a shortage of Infrastructure for the larger drones ( CH4 / WL-2 / Anka / PAC UAV / what ever heavy UAVs PN and PA acquire ) , think so we need more dedicated airbases or a big expansion of current ones for drones as the current ones are at full capacity and were never intended to operate large UAVs.


You had raised this point before and I hadn't given it much attention. But looking at the rapid pace of induction I think you are right. I'm sure infrastructure is on its way. It has to be.

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## sparten

farooqbhai007 said:


> it makes sense ,
> 
> *PAF*
> Shahpar 1 / Shahpar 2* ( Light ISR )*
> TB-2 *( Light Attack )
> *
> Anka / Pac UAV *( MALE UAV Light )*
> WL-2* ( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> PA*
> CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
> To be acquired *( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> PN*
> CH4B* ( MALE UAV Light )*
> To be acquired* ( MALE UAV Heavy )
> 
> 
> Joint Branch Service*
> Burraq *( Light Attack )
> 
> 
> Unknown user ( Possibly MOI )*
> WL-1 *( MALE UAV Light )*


Shahpar is Army not PAF.
Shahpar 2 is the PA's new main MALE UCAV.


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## farooqbhai007

sparten said:


> Shahpar is Army not PAF.
> Shahpar 2 is the PA's new main MALE UCAV.


Shahpar 2 is with paf as well , its more likely under joint branch use i guess then

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## sparten

You are right buts it an "Army" UAV, designed by and for the PA.

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> can u plz analysis the situation why we are going for these many number of UCAVs systems, If I am not wrong including TB-2 we will have 5 different UCAV systems in Operation and if I count PAC MALE Dron and possible induction of TAI ANKA -S then the number of different system reach 7
> 
> So a simple and basic question Why these many different UCAVs ... ??


Stinks of corruption and lack of joint planning


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## Signalian

JamD said:


> 5. This is about point 3 but I think most of these foreign UAV buys are for planned use against India and not anti-terror ops as everyone wants them to be.


Is PAF sending TB-2 into IOK next time when something like Feb 2019 occurs instead of sending in JF-17 and Mirages.
There was a video lurking on PDF showing a PA/PAF UCAV targeting an indian installation near LOC and using Link-17 as primary data link. Was that a clue that UCAVs are the next choice of aerial bombing runs.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> UCAVs are the next choice of aerial bombing runs.


Why shouldn't they be?

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## JamD

Signalian said:


> Is PAF sending TB-2 into IOK next time when something like Feb 2019 occurs instead of sending in JF-17 and Mirages.
> There was a video lurking on PDF showing a PA/PAF UCAV targeting an indian installation near LOC and using Link-17 as primary data link. Was that a clue that UCAVs are the next choice of aerial bombing runs.


It goes without saying that I am just guessing, but yes. It does appear that way. Not just into IOK if things are spread beyond IOK. It is certainly an attractive option for SR type strikes.

Even though this TB-2 buy is for the PAF, the PA has been on a buying spree of its own too. I think this is a more interesting development than the PAF operating TB-2's because:
1. This gives PA a conventional option to strike Indian targets at long range, where previously they would have to use BMs or CMs, which could/would have been understood as a nuclear response.
2. This gives PA quite a bit of independence to strike targets that they would previously have asked the PAF to.

In our discussion of our UCAV inductions, we shouldn't forget that it is inevitable that India will do (or is already doing) the same. What are our defenses/options?

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## ARCH٤R

PanzerKiel said:


> Why shouldn't they be?


So far they carry less payload, fly at lower altitudes on average and fly slower. Up till now many UCAVs can’t defend against missiles if fired at and unless navigated by SATCOM they can be lost in low altitude flights that are needed in urban warfare. SATCOMs can be non-existent if well... your adversary happens to have missiles capable of shooting down satellites.


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## Zarvan



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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 810968


PAF should buy this one especially payload and loitering time is enormous we need total drone on westren borders reliable cheap give breathing space to men Jetts

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## ghazi52

No 9 Multi-Role Sqn "Griffins", one of the oldest Sqns of PAF was established on 13 Nov, 1943. Pakistan’s Def Minister Mir Ali Ahmed Khan Talpur visited No 9 Squadron on 25 Jan, 1979 to award the colour to the Sqn.

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## python-000



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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Dua karo iraq ham se UAVs khareed le.
4 paise hi hath a jaen 😁

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## farooqbhai007

have deleted my message above as that was not a loitering munition but rather a Surveillance UAV bought by PA.

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494245674145230848


Now pak people can hire these drone for marriage ceremonies , terrorists par to use karna nhi inho na


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494245674145230848


PAC UCAV has almost same specs then why not procure from PAC?


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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494245674145230848


I had already told you guys that PN had Bought a large amount of CH4s all of which were delivered last year and are all operational.
I will update article later tonight.

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## ghazi52

...
47th UAV Squadron: The Raiders 

CH-4. 
Luna NG. 
Boeing Scan Eagle.

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## ghazi52

---deleted--- wrong thread


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## TsAr

Riz said:


> Now pak people can hire these drone for marriage ceremonies , terrorists par to use karna nhi inho na


I will ask the forces to text you next time they use the drones on terrorist's.

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## Riz

TsAr said:


> I will ask the forces to text you next time they use the drones on terrorist's.


When US was using drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Talibani and al qaida leadership were so frightened that they even stopped use of mobile phones and traveling in open , while here dozens of terrorists kept pounding our military post for 5 fking hours, no drone reached there , many times TTP terrorists attacked and killed our soldiers, but our drones could not able to fly , yaa do me a favor and convey to them a message from my side if u have links there , bajway k baity ki shadi ma udao inko

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## TsAr

Riz said:


> When US was using drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Talibani and al qaida leadership were so frightened that they even stopped use of mobile phones and traveling in open , while here dozens of terrorists kept pounding our military post for 5 fking hours, no drone reached there , many times TTP terrorists attacked and killed our soldiers, but our drones could not able to fly , yaa do me a favor and convey to them a message from my side if u have links there , bajway k baity ki shadi ma udao inko


why don't you visit COAS house and tell him yourself, I can give you a lift if you want.

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## TsAr

Riz said:


> When US was using drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Talibani and al qaida leadership were so frightened that they even stopped use of mobile phones and traveling in open , while here dozens of terrorists kept pounding our military post for 5 fking hours, no drone reached there , many times TTP terrorists attacked and killed our soldiers, but our drones could not able to fly , yaa do me a favor and convey to them a message from my side if u have links there , bajway k baity ki shadi ma udao inko


Do you have an idea how long the border is and how many posts are spread out. You are comparing a country with a defense budget of approximately $700 billion with a budget of $8.8 billion.
Many a times US land forces were left stranded with no air cover, drone is not a magical dragon that will appear all of a sudden and start attacking, this is reality not GOT

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## Riz

TsAr said:


> Do you have an idea how long the border is and how many posts are spread out. You are comparing a country with a defense budget of approximately $700 billion with a budget of $8.8 billion.
> Many a times US land forces were left stranded with no air cover, drone is not a magical dragon that will appear all of a sudden and start attacking, this is reality not GOT


Dont tell me about the length of border here, we all know 95% fence on the pak afghan sborder is completed , only 5% is the most sensitive part where our guys are working on fence , Two times TTP carried out attacks on that 5% area , if you are failed to provide air cover to that small area then my advice is right , bajwa apny baity ki shadi par uday phir kom k paisy zaya kar raha ha yeh


TsAr said:


> why don't you visit COAS house and tell him yourself, I can give you a lift if you want.


It was you who was willing to convey my message to bajwa 


TsAr said:


> I will ask the forces to text you next time they use the drones on terrorist's.


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## TsAr

Riz said:


> Dont tell me about the length of border here, we all know 95% fence on the pak afghan sborder is completed , only 5% is the most sensitive part where our guys are working on fence , Two times TTP carried out attacks on that 5% area , if you are failed to provide air cover to that small area then my advice is right , bajwa apny baity ki shadi par uday phir kom k paisy zaya kar raha ha yeh
> 
> It was you who was willing to convey my message to bajwa


Indian Pakistan border is fenced, Texas Mexico border is fenced, that still does not stop smugglers and migrants to skip through.

Why don't you share your address and I will send someone over to pick you up and arrange a meeting with the COAS.

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## waz

Brothers stop arguing please.

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## khail007

Riz said:


> Now pak people can hire these drone for marriage ceremonies , terrorists par to use karna nhi inho na



Sir G, yes still drones are an essential part of the marriage ceremonies but not limited to. Now they are practically applied in Pakistan for the following fields apart from military usage:

*Agriculture:*
Vegetation growth in farms to apply fertilizers for cost-cutting
Surveillance on large farms to monitor laborers and cattle herds
Effective pesticide spray and cost-cutting

*Advertising and Tourism:*
Producing eye-catching clips for a documentary on tourism and wildlife
Aiding in advertising by limiting the time and usage of equipment like cranes and scissor lifts

Some companies also doing R&D for food delivery to increase business potential in a cost-effective way

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## Riz

khail007 said:


> Sir G, yes still drones are an essential part of the marriage ceremonies but not limited to. Now they are practically applied in Pakistan for the following fields apart from military usage:
> 
> *Agriculture:*
> Vegetation growth in farms to apply fertilizers for cost-cutting
> Surveillance on large farms to monitor laborers and cattle herds
> Effective pesticide spray and cost-cutting
> 
> *Advertising and Tourism:*
> Producing eye-catching clips for a documentary on tourism and wildlife
> Aiding in advertising by limiting the time and usage of equipment like cranes and scissor lifts
> 
> Some companies also doing R&D for food delivery to increase business potential in a cost-effective way


Yes we should use them for agriculture instead of wasting them standing on military bases



waz said:


> Brothers stop arguing please.


Roger boss


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## khail007

Riz said:


> Yes we should use them for agriculture instead of wasting them standing on military bases
> 
> 
> Roger boss



Could we find any person on PDF, who could seriously elaborate, on why our units posted on posts in far-flung areas failed to deploy some cheap small drones? For reconnaissance the area for safety. They are cheap and do not need some very costly and special training equipment?

For example:

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## arslank03

khail007 said:


> Could we find any person on PDF, who could seriously elaborate, on why our units posted on posts in far-flung areas failed to deploy some cheap small drones? For reconnaissance the area for safety. They are cheap and do not need some very costly and special training equipment?
> 
> For example:
> View attachment 816586
> 
> 
> View attachment 816585



Because they're not equipped with them, its that simple. The SSG operates Mavic Pro 2 Enterprise, so do many other forces- theyre not cheap to be fair, but theyre very capable little things. They have a built in thermal imager, camera capable of zoom and also a reasonable range- depending on the environment and EMI, ive been a long time user of DJI solutions and even down to the entry/intermediate consumer stuff, very capable little drones, ive had ranges of over 15km in a dense city, limited only by LoS and EMI, im sure in areas such as BLN where there is little to no EMI, these things will be at home. Its a matter of providing them with the equipment, but as i said, its not cheap.

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## khail007

rgfegasrg said:


> Because they're not equipped with them, its that simple. The SSG operates Mavic Pro 2 Enterprise, so do many other forces- theyre not cheap to be fair, but theyre very capable little things. They have a built in thermal imager, camera capable of zoom and also a reasonable range- depending on the environment and EMI, ive been a long time user of DJI solutions and even down to the entry/intermediate consumer stuff, very capable little drones, ive had ranges of over 15km in a dense city, limited only by LoS and EMI, im sure in areas such as BLN where there is little to no EMI, these things will be at home. Its a matter of providing them with the equipment, but as i said, its not cheap.



Thanks for sharing your first-hand and personal valuable knowledge.
Actually here I am considering the price as compared to the large military drones.
Definitely, as you explained about capabilities, it will value much for an individual in reference to finance.


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## arslank03

khail007 said:


> Thanks for sharing your first-hand and personal valuable knowledge.
> Actually here I am considering the price as compared to the large military drones.
> Definitely, as you explained about capabilities, it will value much for an individual in reference to finance.


They're very different in how they operate, but yeah, theyre nice little machines, used by militaries all over the world, they can be very useful for spotting those targets, especially since they do have a thermal camera. Infact, me and some friends would go boar hunting in Kashmir with ours, we would use the thermal camera to spot the targets and then set up a shot

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496840257895079936
Taken out before they could do anything considerable...
This conflict has turned out to be anticlimactic for UCAVs especially after the Azer-Armenia conflict. That's why I always said that we should get over this drone fetish.
No weapon system alone can be the solution of every problem.

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## TsAr

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496840257895079936
> Taken out before they could do anything considerable...
> This conflict has turned out to be anticlimactic for UCAVs especially after the Azer-Armenia conflict. That's why I always said that we should get over this drone fetish.
> No weapon system alone can be the solution of every problem.


they are flop because of Ukraine's incompetency, there is no match between Russia and Ukraine. Any weapon system has its pro and cons and its has to be used and deployed in the most efficient way for it to perform well.

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## JamD

Something possibly interesting.

Looking at Shahpar-2 and TB-2, it is easy to see that these are UCAVs in the same class. However, the way they are supposed to "close the kill chain" is quite different and makes for an interesting case study in my opinion.

*Shahpar-II*
Shahpar-II carries Burq/AR-1, which is a 45 kg missile that is supposed to reach out to 8-10 km. The Shahpar-II carries two of these.

Interestingly, for the photoshoot and brochure the Shahpar-II is equipped with Zumr-1 not Zumr-2.




The Zumr-1 has a laser range finder but no laser designator. However, in the video where Shahpar-II launches Burqs we can see that Shahpar-II is actually equipped with a Zumr-II:




You can tell Zumr-1 and 2 apart by noting Zumr-2's larger size and blockier appearance. The Zumr-II does have a laser designator that can laze targets up to 20 km away





So the way these are probably meant to be used is that a Shahpar-II lazes its own targets and fires 2 missiles max at 10 km at it.



*TB2*
Now the primary weapon of the TB2 is the MAM-L, which is a 22kg glide munition. Since the MAM-L weighs half as much as a Burq, the TB-2 can carry FOUR MAM-L's:




The fascinating thing is that the max range on the MAM-L is given as 15 km.




This is probably achieved by flying the TB2 really high.

The TB2 also carries a designator that can look out to 25 km





So the way the TB2s are probably used is that one TB2 has the mission of flying far away and designate targets (and record video for propaganda purposes). As far as I can tell most videos of TB2 strikes seem to show missiles that come from directions different from the video recording pointing to the fact that a different TB2 is probably launching the weapons. Now the other TB2 flies as high and fast as possible and launches its MAM-L's. The MAM-L's rely on the TB-2s energy (speed and altitude) to achieve their max range. If push comes to shove the TB-2 tasked with designating targets could also carry 4 MAM-Ls.

*Comparison*
So with very similar aircraft, the Shahpar-II and TB2 complete their mission very differently. The Shahpar-II carries two heavy missiles that use their rocket's energy to get to target. The Shahpar-II seems to have an engagement range smaller than that of TB2 by 5-7 km - this distance can mean the difference between survival and destruction. The TB2 uses the energy provided by the TB2 aircraft to get presumably double the amount of explosives (4 MAM-L's vs 2 Burq) to a target further away. It would appear that the TB2 way to do the mission is more efficient because it appears to give a longer range. This also explains Bayraktar's quest to fly the TB2 higher and higher (27k feet according to a Turkish member here). The TB2 and MAM-L are systems designed and optimized for each other. It is fascinating to try to understand design choices.

I am hopeful that our systems will get to this level of polish too.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed this post may answer some of the questions that you guys have asked over time.

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## snne

JamD said:


> This also explains Bayraktar's quest to fly the TB2 higher and higher (27k feet according to a Turkish member here).


There are some other points to correct in your post, however, this one took my attention the most:

The company is called Baykar Tech, not Bayraktar. That's the name of their series of drones, e.g. Bayraktar TB-2 or Bayraktar Akıncı.

I get why it might be confusing given how similar the names are to foreign people, but it's just the serial name of their drones.

IMO, Baykar has a serious name branding issue right there.

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## JamD

snne said:


> There are some other points to correct in your post, however, this one took my attention the most:
> 
> The company is called Baykar Tech, not Bayraktar. That's the name of their series of drones, e.g. Bayraktar TB-2 or Bayraktar Akıncı.
> 
> I get why it might be confusing given how similar the names are to foreign people, but it's just the serial name of their drones.
> 
> IMO, Baykar has a serious name branding issue right there.


thanks for the information.

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## farooqbhai007

PAF TB2 flying near Multan , 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485548072323145730
Confirms the news AEROSINT from twitter said few weeks ago and later verified by panzerkiel.

The Akinci is also here as well 

@PanzerKiel @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

JamD said:


> I am hopeful that our systems will get to this level of polish too


For this extensive use and feedback from military is required.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502648755996315655

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## YurtDefence

JamD said:


> Something possibly interesting.
> 
> Looking at Shahpar-2 and TB-2, it is easy to see that these are UCAVs in the same class. However, the way they are supposed to "close the kill chain" is quite different and makes for an interesting case study in my opinion.
> 
> *Shahpar-II*
> Shahpar-II carries Burq/AR-1, which is a 45 kg missile that is supposed to reach out to 8-10 km. The Shahpar-II carries two of these.
> 
> Interestingly, for the photoshoot and brochure the Shahpar-II is equipped with Zumr-1 not Zumr-2.
> View attachment 819993
> 
> The Zumr-1 has a laser range finder but no laser designator. However, in the video where Shahpar-II launches Burqs we can see that Shahpar-II is actually equipped with a Zumr-II:
> View attachment 819997
> 
> You can tell Zumr-1 and 2 apart by noting Zumr-2's larger size and blockier appearance. The Zumr-II does have a laser designator that can laze targets up to 20 km away
> View attachment 819987
> 
> 
> So the way these are probably meant to be used is that a Shahpar-II lazes its own targets and fires 2 missiles max at 10 km at it.
> 
> 
> 
> *TB2*
> Now the primary weapon of the TB2 is the MAM-L, which is a 22kg glide munition. Since the MAM-L weighs half as much as a Burq, the TB-2 can carry FOUR MAM-L's:
> View attachment 820005
> 
> The fascinating thing is that the max range on the MAM-L is given as 15 km.
> View attachment 820007
> 
> This is probably achieved by flying the TB2 really high.
> 
> The TB2 also carries a designator that can look out to 25 km
> View attachment 820006
> 
> 
> So the way the TB2s are probably used is that one TB2 has the mission of flying far away and designate targets (and record video for propaganda purposes). As far as I can tell most videos of TB2 strikes seem to show missiles that come from directions different from the video recording pointing to the fact that a different TB2 is probably launching the weapons. Now the other TB2 flies as high and fast as possible and launches its MAM-L's. The MAM-L's rely on the TB-2s energy (speed and altitude) to achieve their max range. If push comes to shove the TB-2 tasked with designating targets could also carry 4 MAM-Ls.
> 
> *Comparison*
> So with very similar aircraft, the Shahpar-II and TB2 complete their mission very differently. The Shahpar-II carries two heavy missiles that use their rocket's energy to get to target. The Shahpar-II seems to have an engagement range smaller than that of TB2 by 5-7 km - this distance can mean the difference between survival and destruction. The TB2 uses the energy provided by the TB2 aircraft to get presumably double the amount of explosives (4 MAM-L's vs 2 Burq) to a target further away. It would appear that the TB2 way to do the mission is more efficient because it appears to give a longer range. This also explains Bayraktar's quest to fly the TB2 higher and higher (27k feet according to a Turkish member here). The TB2 and MAM-L are systems designed and optimized for each other. It is fascinating to try to understand design choices.
> 
> I am hopeful that our systems will get to this level of polish too.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed this post may answer some of the questions that you guys have asked over time.



The only way to optimise a UCAV to almost perfection is flight hours, TB2 has recorded 400,000 hours of flight that's equivalent to 45 years. There have been very few instances where one has malfunctioned, in part due to the triple redundancy Baykar insists on in it's UCAVs.

Could Pakistan get there, yes. But not without huge investments and actual usage of them, TB2 has been in multiple theatres of war, that is insurmountable knowledge gained!

---

Also to add, there is another munition that doesn't get much lime-light. Tubitak-SAGE BOZOK, which has multi-launch multiple target engagement with it's integrated INS/IMU/GNS.








https://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/tr/urunler/bozok

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## ghazi52

;;;;;

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505545101761662978;;;

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506651266755223555

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## YurtDefence

YurtDefence said:


> The only way to optimise a UCAV to almost perfection is flight hours, TB2 has recorded 400,000 hours of flight that's equivalent to 45 years. There have been very few instances where one has malfunctioned, in part due to the triple redundancy Baykar insists on in it's UCAVs.
> 
> Could Pakistan get there, yes. But not without huge investments and actual usage of them, TB2 has been in multiple theatres of war, that is insurmountable knowledge gained!
> 
> ---
> 
> Also to add, there is another munition that doesn't get much lime-light. Tubitak-SAGE BOZOK, which has multi-launch multiple target engagement with it's integrated INS/IMU/GNS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/tr/urunler/bozok



To further add, TB2 has been continuously updated from software to hardware from lessons learned in battles and wars fought.

2016 Operation Euphrates Shield |Syria
2018 Operation Olive Branch | Syria
2019 Operation Peace Spring | Syria
2020 Operation Paths to Victory | Libya
2020 Karabakh war | Azerbaijan
2020 Operation Claw | Iraq
2021 Tigray War | Ethiopia
2022 Ukraine-Russia War | Ukraine
The only other country that has such significant experience is the United States, however their drones have not been used in wars with heavy air-defence systems, nor peer-to-peer adversaries.

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## shofotolavski

1、Pakistan should probably convert old retired planes into drones like China did for radar suppression and more dangerous low-altitude raid missions
2、
Some drones can be modified to take off with a rocket boost and attack the opponent's airfield and radar after the airfield is destroyed.
Even old planes can complete a one-way mission with a large range
If the mission is close range raid, it can be designed as a return type
3、You can add some devices that simulate the signal characteristics of other aircraft to confuse the other party's radar,
Perform a suicide attack or rocket attack while the enemy radar is on


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## Riz

YurtDefence said:


> To further add, TB2 has been continuously updated from software to hardware from lessons learned in battles and wars fought.
> 
> 2016 Operation Euphrates Shield |Syria
> 2018 Operation Olive Branch | Syria
> 2019 Operation Peace Spring | Syria
> 2020 Operation Paths to Victory | Libya
> 2020 Karabakh war | Azerbaijan
> 2020 Operation Claw | Iraq
> 2021 Tigray War | Ethiopia
> 2022 Ukraine-Russia War | Ukraine
> The only other country that has such significant experience is the United States, however their drones have not been used in wars with heavy air-defence systems, nor peer-to-peer adversaries.


Few Of ours ……… already under trial in one gulf country, just wait for good news …nuff said

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## shofotolavski

China made some j-6 modified drones
Pakistan may be able to use civilian standard accessories to convert some old aircraft to use as drones, the cost is not high, and the flight speed is very fast


Riz said:


> Few Of ours ……… already under trial in one gulf country, just wait for good news …nuff said


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## vizier

shofotolavski said:


> 1、Pakistan should probably convert old retired planes into drones like China did for radar suppression and more dangerous low-altitude raid missions
> 2、
> Some drones can be modified to take off with a rocket boost and attack the opponent's airfield and radar after the airfield is destroyed.
> Even old planes can complete a one-way mission with a large range
> If the mission is close range raid, it can be designed as a return type
> 3、You can add some devices that simulate the signal characteristics of other aircraft to confuse the other party's radar,
> Perform a suicide attack or rocket attack while the enemy radar is on
> View attachment 827210



ZEL launch is a good tactic removing runway dependence. Additionally the landing gear of these uavs can be turned to landing skids. It will need refurbishment. The skids can be retractable or can be mounted to the body but if this is achieved the plane can even land on ground-grass. It will be a reusable drone interceptor at least would work well against older planes - drone swarms. 

Landing on grass and ZEL-rocket launch would remove runway denial options. 


There are some cold war designd that used trolley launch-landing skids scheme before vtol aircraft emerged which are expensive and have design tradeoffs. Front nose intake or canard side intake or above intake engine options would have less problems with debris on runway. Side intake example below has no problems it seems. Maybe some open-close engine inlet can be made while landing-taking off to block foreign object debris like Mig-29 has. 


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/dlx8yb



Sud-Est S.E.5003 Baroudeur



Retractable landing skids:





Trolley-dolly launch





Landing on grass runway:


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## Abid123

Pakistan needs to invest in suicide drones like Iran has.


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## SQ8

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan needs to invest in suicide drones like Iran has.


Might help against the onslaught of Bipedal land based ones.

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## PanzerKiel



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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1531258308350423040

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## Abid123

SQ8 said:


> Might help against the onslaught of Bipedal land based ones.


Why are you always trolling?😑

On a serious note Suicide/Kamikaze drones could be really useful for Pakistan.

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## Bin Laden

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 849674


Doesn't Barq have an IR seeker?

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## monitor

NEWSSelect
Home> News> Air Warfare> Pakistan is confirmed as a TB2 user





Pakistan is confirmed as a TB2 user
2nd June 2022 - 15:30 GMT | by Arslan Khan in Islamabad

RSS
This satellite image captured by Google Earth shows a TB2 UAV at PAF Base Murid. (Photo: Google Earth)

The Turkish-built Bayraktar TB2 has found a new home in Pakistan.

On 7 April, a Bayraktar TB2 UAV was seen on satellite imagery at Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Murid. This was the first official confirmation of the delivery of these systems to Pakistan.

In Google Earth imagery, two ground control stations (GCS) can be seen alongside a variety of support equipment.

Typically, one GCS is capable of handling up to three UAVs. This indicates that the PAF has received at least 2-6 UAVs. Recently, there have been regular flights by these aircraft under the call sign ‘Raider’.

PAF Base Murid has historically

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> My attempt at explaining what seems to be happening:
> 1. I think we shouldn't view UAVs as manned jets in terms of logistic trains. That is, having 10 different fighter types is super expensive but having 10 different UAV types probably isn't very expensive - especially for these smaller S1/S2/Burraq/TB2 types. There is some value in having diverse assets.
> 2. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV they can to induct them in large numbers. The capability is being built up FAST.
> 3. Pakistan's armed forces are getting their hands on every decent UAV so that they can learn to use them well by absorbing them into their doctrine.
> 4. Operating a wide variety of UAVs will make Pakistani armed forces capable of specifying very very good requirements for local/joint/foreign programs (like how our experience with the F16 fed into the JF-17).
> 5. This is about point 3 but I think most of these foreign UAV buys are for planned use against India and not anti-terror ops as everyone wants them to be.


There should be a place for mini and micro drones, depending upon the role, mission and the force using it.



Bin Laden said:


> Doesn't Barq have an IR seeker?


Beam riding would also require IR seeker ?

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## Bin Laden

Signalian said:


> Beam riding would also require IR seeker ?


In that case No, But I've seen and image of burq with a seeker head, Not sure if that was IR or TV sight.


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## JamD

Signalian said:


> There should be a place for mini and micro drones, depending upon the role, mission and the force using it.


I think there is. Some systems are being trialed from what I've heard.

I know people will wonder about this but I don't think that there are any serious local systems. The reason for this is simply the slow and bureaucratic nature of our R&D orgs. Something more private and swift is needed to keep up with the world. I have heard some stuff about something along these lines being envisioned with collaboration with Turkiye.




Signalian said:


> Beam riding would also require IR seeker ?





Bin Laden said:


> In that case No, But I've seen and image of burq with a seeker head, Not sure if that was IR or TV sight.


Beam rider would have a sensor on its rear, not the front. Also, I think that picture just shows dummy missiles. The actual missiles do have an IR Seeker on the front. With Zumr-2 being advertised with a laser designator, I see no reason why the Barq will have anything but an IR seeker.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I think there is. Some systems are being trialed from what I've heard.
> 
> I know people will wonder about this but I don't think that there are any serious local systems. The reason for this is simply the slow and bureaucratic nature of our R&D orgs. Something more private and swift is needed to keep up with the world. I have heard some stuff about something along these lines being envisioned with collaboration with Turkiye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beam rider would have a sensor on its rear, not the front. Also, I think that picture just shows dummy missiles. The actual missiles do have an IR Seeker on the front. With Zumr-2 being advertised with a laser designator, I see no reason why the Barq will have anything but an IR seeker.


I hope the younger generation (i.e., the next decision-makers) carry a lot more of this frustration in them than the current cadre. That's the only way to bridge the reality with their daydreams of being like Turkey. I genuinely hope this quasi-communism comes to an end.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I hope the younger generation (i.e., the next decision-makers) carry a lot more of this frustration in them than the current cadre. That's the only way to bridge the reality with their daydreams of being like Turkey. I genuinely hope this quasi-communism comes to an end.


Here is one such guy (left), who is thinking precisely in the way that you are:




(NESCOM Chairman Raza Samar)

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> I think there is. Some systems are being trialed from what I've heard.
> 
> I know people will wonder about this but I don't think that there are any serious local systems. The reason for this is simply the slow and bureaucratic nature of our R&D orgs. Something more private and swift is needed to keep up with the world. I have heard some stuff about something along these lines being envisioned with collaboration with Turkiye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beam rider would have a sensor on its rear, not the front. Also, I think that picture just shows dummy missiles. The actual missiles do have an IR Seeker on the front. With Zumr-2 being advertised with a laser designator, I see no reason why the Barq will have anything but an IR seeker.


The echelon which is handed over such drones would have to under go training and it is yet to be seen if small platoons of regular battalions are handed over such small drones.

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## Zarvan

CH 5. Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy have ordered very few CH 4. Which to me means that they their main goal will be to get our boys trained on them I mean boys from Army and Navy and then we would move to this bigger beast in large numbers just like PAF went for Wing Long II in really large number.

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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 851351
> 
> View attachment 851352
> 
> 
> CH 5. Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy have ordered very few CH 4. Which to me means that they their main goal will be to get our boys trained on them I mean boys from Army and Navy and then we would move to this bigger beast in large numbers just like PAF went for Wing Long II in really large number.


Army ordered few but not Navy , the Navy order size is alright , however if I recall the PA was looking for a heavy strike drone so yea the logical choice would be for the PA to acquire the CH5 given the same manufacturer as CH4.

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## Zarvan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Army ordered few but not Navy , the Navy order size is alright , however if I recall the PA was looking for a heavy strike drone so yea the logical choice would be for the PA to acquire the CH5 given the same manufacturer as CH4.


What I know is Navy order is less then of 12.


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## farooqbhai007

Zarvan said:


> What I know is Navy order is less then of 12.


No it isnt


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## Great Janjua

farooqbhai007 said:


> Army ordered few but not Navy , the Navy order size is alright , however if I recall the PA was looking for a heavy strike drone so yea the logical choice would be for the PA to acquire the CH5 given the same manufacturer as CH4.


Why did PAF buy akinci when it already has a heavy platform??.


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## nomi007

We have to trust our own Uavs rather than to buy TB-2. I think Shahpar-2 is much better than Turks drone.
If we manage to make a local engine for shahpar-2, that will give huge boost to its exports.

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## Zarvan

Indian media crying over spotting of TB 2 Bayratkar at Pakistani Air Base

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## Zarvan



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Zarvan said:


> Indian media crying over spotting of TB 2 Bayratkar at Pakistani Air Base


Reminds them of Sultan Mahmud, Muhammad Ghori, Kutubedin Aybek, AbdAli etc....

And, Bajwa's term is coming to an end soon....

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537837170903359492

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## Zarvan



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dawn of a New Era

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## Zarvan

Our very own MALE UAV project. Is it officially dead or still we can have some hope ?


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## JamD

Zarvan said:


> Our very own MALE UAV project. Is it officially dead or still we can have some hope ?


Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.

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## Riz

JamD said:


> Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PA


Military is busy somewhere else

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## ziaulislam

JamD said:


> Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.


there is no harm in going for JV if you are inexpeirenced in a field..we dont have any spare change anyway nor good people to run a project

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.


The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.

The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.

The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.

Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.

I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.

They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.

Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD

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## HRK

JamD said:


> Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.


Really .... ???

It is very sad news to hear as Azm MALE UAV was in prototype stage .... I still remember following pic

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## snne

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.


Actually, it's the total opposite with Turkey. The percentage of GDP per year spend for defence has reduced drastically ever since AKP has risen to power and no major platform (such as modern tanks, F-16s, frigates, tanker or cargo aircraft, etc.) have been procured in the last -20 years. There are exceptions to this, but even then they are only in small numbers. You may point to I-class, Anadolu LHD, upcoming TF-X/MMU, TF-2000, Altay tank etc. but majority of these have been planned since the 90s. What has been done in terms of defence are only product development. Most if not all funds go to this and when it comes to procuring; there's almost nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. (Exceptions being all kinds of munitions and TB-2 class small-mid drones).

At the end, Turkey has defended its interests in Libya with G class (O.H.P. class) and Barbaros/Yavuz classes(MEKO 200 TN I/II) (late 80s-early 90s) in the sea; supplied 60 year old M60s to the GNA; airlifted with 1974 Cyprus veteran C-130Hs and did air patrol with F-16 Block 40M/50Ms (procured in the 90s with the Gulf financement)

Not with the I-Class or F-35s, but with minimum 25-30 year old equipments.

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## JamD

HRK said:


> Really .... ???
> 
> It is very sad news to hear as Azm MALE UAV was in prototype stage .... I still remember following pic
> 
> View attachment 867906


Let's just say that you can't take that picture today.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.
> 
> The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.
> 
> The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.
> 
> I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.
> 
> They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.
> 
> Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD


Civilians are there if generals allow it .
Generals thing of civilians as idiots 

It comes from personal experience work briefly at wah cantt hospital.

Turkey only moved forward when generals were kicked out

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=775794413574808

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## Corax

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.
> 
> The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.
> 
> The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.
> 
> I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.
> 
> They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.
> 
> Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD



I'm actually constantly surprised Pakistan even still exists in its current form and hasn't gone the way of Afghanistan or Somalia. The way most of the Pakistani political establishment is at each others necks and out for themselves, selling the country for their own pockets, it's little wonder there is no nationalist movement to bring about order and cohesion. That role has traditionally been done by the army, and given their backseat approach, the vultures are having a field day with the country almost bankrupt. The only thing that keeps Pakistanis together it seems is their common foe India.

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## ghazi52

,..,







Heavy Payload & Endurance ,
using AESA Radar Capability to launch KGK-82PGB Teber-82LGB ALCM & BVRAAM [in process]. 
Equipped with Dual SATCOM, 
E-support system, 
Dual AI Avionics real time enhanced signal processing, 
Sensor fusion & S.Awareness.

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan must get its own indigenous satellite like India to fully contr drones with no info leaked to china or usa


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## Corax

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan must get its own indigenous satellite like India to fully contr drones with no info leaked to china or usa



What makes you think they haven't already?


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## Super Falcon

Corax said:


> What makes you think they haven't already?


Because fact is what ever satellites we have are on leased we use them partially china has total control over their functions we never designed or sent any satellite yet


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## sparten

HRK said:


> Really .... ???
> 
> It is very sad news to hear as Azm MALE UAV was in prototype stage .... I still remember following pic
> 
> View attachment 867906


Still on as far as I know.

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## Fasbre2

Super Falcon said:


> Because fact is what ever satellites we have are on leased we use them partially china has total control over their functions we never designed or sent any satellite yet


With Pdm crooks in power, there never will be, all funds will be diverted to crooks accounts..


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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.
> 
> The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.
> 
> The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.
> 
> I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.
> 
> They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.
> 
> Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD


Explain the Army then? The most politicised service. Yet they keep being able to get good systems developed through NESCOM and the various Taxila institutes. 
In the UAV field NESCOM has managed to field multiple generations of capable UAV while all the much vaunted brains at Kamra have done is produce licensed copies. 
We have had the Flamingo and Uqaab drones in the 2000's, the Shahpar, Burraq and now Shahpar II. 
The answer is that the PAF top brass sees UAV as a threat to their manned aircraft while the Army leadership sees it as a major force multiplier for ground units.

This is the same reason the PAF was so dilatory in the development of BM back in the 1990's that the Army had to eventually take over, otherwise there is no reason for the Army to have any BM with ranges longer than 300km.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

sparten said:


> Explain the Army then? The most politicised service. Yet they keep being able to get good systems developed through NESCOM and the various Taxila institutes.
> In the UAV field NESCOM has managed to field multiple generations of capable UAV while all the much vaunted brains at Kamra have done is produce licensed copies.
> We have had the Flamingo and Uqaab drones in the 2000's, the Shahpar, Burraq and now Shahpar II.
> The answer is that the PAF top brass sees UAV as a threat to their manned aircraft while the Army leadership sees it as a major force multiplier for ground units.
> 
> This is the same reason the PAF was so dilatory in the development of BM back in the 1990's that the Army had to eventually take over, otherwise there is no reason for the Army to have any BM with ranges longer than 300km.


The drone models available in the 2000s brought limited utility or value to the PAF's requirements.

The Selex Falco had played a pretty decent role in supporting the PAF's TST requirements for COIN/CT. However, Selex couldn't commit to delivering a larger drone for delivering weapon payloads or higher-powered sensor payloads. This was around 2012-2015.

Things began changing around 2016-2017 when Chinese and Turkish suppliers started working on proper MALE UAV designs, e.g., CH-4, CH-5 and Wing Loong-series in China, and the Bayraktar and Anka-series in Turkey.

Once those designs became available, the PAF basically indicated it would start adding them to its fleet. For example, the PAF is basically a confirmed operator of the Bayraktar TB2 and a probable Wing Loong II and Bayraktar Akinci buyer.

The PAF never considered UAVs as a "threat" to its manned aircraft. Rather, it had wanted drones because it could greatly expand its ELINT and ISR coverages to a level that wasn't possible with manned platforms. However, the PAF never had access to a proper Predator-class or Reaper-class drone until a few years ago.

If anything, the reason why the PAF isn't buying Shahpar-IIs (rather than TB2s) probably has to do with petty inter-service rivalry. NESCOM is working with TAI on an Anka variant, but I doubt the PAF would buy it. It'll likely be a Baykar Makina customer.

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## Tipu7

JamD said:


> Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.


Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?

He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.

Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.

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## JamD

Tipu7 said:


> Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?
> 
> He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.
> 
> Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.


Spot on thinking I think

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## JamD

Tipu7 said:


> Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?
> 
> He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.
> 
> Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.


The sad part is that I think that some sort of program should've been seen to completion because all of the things the PAF has learnt with the JF17 will be lost. This loss of expertise has happened several several times in our history. Companies run programs simply to keep their workforce current. PAF doesn't understand the criticality of this. This is one of the reasons that indiginization doesn't stick in Pakistan.

IMHO a more humble program should've been pursued. Perhaps an advanced jet trainer. Or a UCAV. Something much lower risk, complexity, and cost. Even that would be a huge effort. But these things take time and practice. Azm was trying to get to the moon when you haven't even invented airplanes. I've also heard what people outside of Pakistan say of Azm and it is deeply embarrassing for me.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> The sad part is that I think that some sort of program should've been seen to completion because all of the things the PAF has learnt with the JF17 will be lost. This loss of expertise has happened several several times in our history. Companies run programs simply to keep their workforce current. PAF doesn't understand the criticality of this. This is one of the reasons that indiginization doesn't stick in Pakistan.
> 
> IMHO a more humble program should've been pursued. Perhaps an advanced jet trainer. Or a UCAV. Something much lower risk, complexity, and cost. Even that would be a huge effort. But these things take time and practice. Azm was trying to get to the moon when you haven't even invented airplanes. I've also heard what people outside of Pakistan say of Azm and it is deeply embarrassing for me.


It might be reinventing the wheel, but starting with an aerobatic trainer to succeed the Super Mushshak would've been a good idea.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It might be reinventing the wheel, but starting with an aerobatic trainer to succeed the Super Mushshak would've been a good idea.


I mean for example look at hurkus and hurjet. Does Turkey REALLY need to make those aircraft locally? No. There are many options on the market that would definitely be cheaper to procure. But running those programs is building an ecosystem like no other and laying the vital groundwork for the TFX. Just an example of institutional thinking as opposed to shashka thinking.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I mean for example look at hurkus and hurjet. Does Turkey REALLY need to make those aircraft locally? No. There are many options on the market that would definitely be cheaper to procure. But running those programs is building an ecosystem like no other and laying the vital groundwork for the TFX. Just an example of institutional thinking as opposed to shashka thinking.


Not only that, while the Turks were negotiating for the SAMP/T, they've been working on the SIPER. Yes, at some level there's a relentless push to develop stuff and localize inputs. But I also feel that they're benefitting from R&D outgrowth and are just putting it in different areas because, well, they now can.

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## mudas777

Corax said:


> I'm actually constantly surprised Pakistan even still exists in its current form and hasn't gone the way of Afghanistan or Somalia. The way most of the Pakistani political establishment is at each others necks and out for themselves, selling the country for their own pockets, it's little wonder there is no nationalist movement to bring about order and cohesion. That role has traditionally been done by the army, and given their backseat approach, the vultures are having a field day with the country almost bankrupt. The only thing that keeps Pakistanis together it seems is their common foe India.


Thats called Allah ki shan. There are vultures every where but somehow they are fed and still country is breathing and Allah is the biggest planner and the provider.

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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If anything, the reason why the PAF isn't buying Shahpar-IIs (rather than TB2s) probably has to do with petty inter-service rivalry. NESCOM is working with TAI on an Anka variant, but I doubt the PAF would buy it. It'll likely be a Baykar Makina customer.


It has always been petty inter services rivalry. Plus a cultural thing. The PA is willing to accept lower quality stuff if it means they can have gaurenteed access to the system and it’s support. The PAF isn’t. Example the Shaheen missile system, its testing problems were legion, that tge PAF kept refusing to induct it, meaning that we lacked a Ground based deterrent for years until the Army finally took over.

The PAF is also allergic to any suggestion that it has to support the Army, the training for the Cobra pilots had to be done in West Germany, since the PAF was “unable” to accommodate Army Aviation pilots in its training centres, until forced to by Pressler.


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## GriffinsRule

sparten said:


> It has always been petty inter services rivalry. Plus a cultural thing. The PA is willing to accept lower quality stuff if it means they can have gaurenteed access to the system and it’s support. The PAF isn’t. Example the Shaheen missile system, its testing problems were legion, that tge PAF kept refusing to induct it, meaning that we lacked a Ground based deterrent for years until the Army finally took over.
> 
> The PAF is also allergic to any suggestion that it has to support the Army, the training for the Cobra pilots had to be done in West Germany, since the PAF was “unable” to accommodate Army Aviation pilots in its training centres, until forced to by Pressler.


How would the air force train attack helicopter pilots? Does not make any sense. Sounds like the right decision.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I mean for example look at hurkus and hurjet. Does Turkey REALLY need to make those aircraft locally? No. There are many options on the market that would definitely be cheaper to procure. But running those programs is building an ecosystem like no other and laying the vital groundwork for the TFX. Just an example of institutional thinking as opposed to shashka thinking.


I was also thinking... If we really wanted to go all-in on next-gen stuff, we could've worked on a complementary project. So, for example, a larger UCAV that can carry a big payload, carryout air-to-air refueling, etc. 

Obviously, it's a huge ask for our nascent base, but it's both far-reaching enough (applicable in 30-40 years) for the long turnaround period. So, yes, it could take at minimum 10 years to set up the capacity, build the talent roster, etc. 

And yes, this could come 20+ years from now, but it's an inherently valuable outcome that can fit into our plans as well as those of others (e.g., Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc) without competing with anyone (which was the case with a parallel manned fighter to TFX).

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Super Falcon

Aksungar Male Drone for Reconisense and Surveillance a better platform for pak airforce


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## Great Janjua

Super Falcon said:


> Aksungar Male Drone for Reconisense and Surveillance a better platform for pak airforce


I'd rather see it in naval use.


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## Super Falcon

Y


Great Janjua said:


> I'd rather see it in naval use.


Agreed they are main mission and designed on Naval warfare operations but they lack the endurance here


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## ghazi52

.,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563700244927631360


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It might be reinventing the wheel, but starting with an aerobatic trainer to succeed the Super Mushshak would've been a good idea.


Frankly, more than making a platform, i think Pakistan needs to think mutli dimensionally. Making somethink as complex as a helicopter, plane (jet or prop) or even trucks/cars requires multiple different components. Currently Pakistan would have difficulty designing and then mass producing a car engine, let alone turbo prop training aircraft. What i would prefer instead is for multiple public/private partnership corporations to be set up (with goal of spinning them off to be completely private in 10-15 years), each tasked with developing a niche for itself in the industrial marketplace. Some should be for design of airframes (ideally for choppers, transports, trainers, and assist in the development of Jets on a multinational front, but the bulk of the efforts shouls be put into subsystem development programs such as a missile house (ideally NESCOM, tasked with next gen ballistic missiles, a2a, a2g, ashM etc), an radar house (for air, naval and ground radar research and development), a signal intelligence house (for ESM, ECM, ECCM development), a jet/turbine house for the development of helicopter and jet engines, a munitions house (derived from POF), a naval design house ect. Many production facilities are there that have small design wings (inside HIT, PAC, POF, Karachi Shipyards) ect but they need to dig deeper and develop real R&D culture with smaller projects that focus on specific needs. Those can then be brought to bear under singular projects. You dont see TAI designing everything from Airframe to Electronics under one project. They have different companies who are responsible for different components. If anything this was the modality PAF forced on china with the JF-17 (Super 7) project. They uncoupled airframe from electronics so the airframe could move forward despite failed electronics procurement efforts. Eventually this move saved the project. Similar process can be done here as projects can proceed incrementally even if certain aspect of it lag behind. For this to work Pakistan needs to change the education culture in Pakistan, and push for more accredited graduates programs in STEM areas.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Baykar’s Chief Technology Officer, Selçuk Bayraktar in a recent interview:
“We will have deliveries to Pakistan of Akinci. 
Training of Pakistani pilots continues.”

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

SOON


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## Sifar zero

So Shahpar 2 is in use by both the Army and Air force.

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## farooqbhai007

Sifar zero said:


> View attachment 876700
> 
> So Shahpar 2 is in use by both the Army and Air force.


Joint service like burraq , Army operate them but PAF bases used for ops.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570060417715798018

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## Zee-shaun




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## Super Falcon

India will be very soon getting US made MQ 9B Reaper drones for all three armed forces by November deliveries will start


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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575161667465641985

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## Mrc

Pakistan needs to work on low flying cheap mass produced suicide drone / loitering munitions 

This seems to be ignored uptill now .

Iranian shahed 136 seems to be well in ukerine

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## JamD

JamD said:


> Something possibly interesting.
> 
> Looking at Shahpar-2 and TB-2, it is easy to see that these are UCAVs in the same class. However, the way they are supposed to "close the kill chain" is quite different and makes for an interesting case study in my opinion.
> 
> *Shahpar-II*
> Shahpar-II carries Burq/AR-1, which is a 45 kg missile that is supposed to reach out to 8-10 km. The Shahpar-II carries two of these.
> 
> Interestingly, for the photoshoot and brochure the Shahpar-II is equipped with Zumr-1 not Zumr-2.
> View attachment 819993
> 
> The Zumr-1 has a laser range finder but no laser designator. However, in the video where Shahpar-II launches Burqs we can see that Shahpar-II is actually equipped with a Zumr-II:
> View attachment 819997
> 
> You can tell Zumr-1 and 2 apart by noting Zumr-2's larger size and blockier appearance. The Zumr-II does have a laser designator that can laze targets up to 20 km away
> View attachment 819987
> 
> 
> So the way these are probably meant to be used is that a Shahpar-II lazes its own targets and fires 2 missiles max at 10 km at it.
> 
> 
> 
> *TB2*
> Now the primary weapon of the TB2 is the MAM-L, which is a 22kg glide munition. Since the MAM-L weighs half as much as a Burq, the TB-2 can carry FOUR MAM-L's:
> View attachment 820005
> 
> The fascinating thing is that the max range on the MAM-L is given as 15 km.
> View attachment 820007
> 
> This is probably achieved by flying the TB2 really high.
> 
> The TB2 also carries a designator that can look out to 25 km
> View attachment 820006
> 
> 
> So the way the TB2s are probably used is that one TB2 has the mission of flying far away and designate targets (and record video for propaganda purposes). As far as I can tell most videos of TB2 strikes seem to show missiles that come from directions different from the video recording pointing to the fact that a different TB2 is probably launching the weapons. Now the other TB2 flies as high and fast as possible and launches its MAM-L's. The MAM-L's rely on the TB-2s energy (speed and altitude) to achieve their max range. If push comes to shove the TB-2 tasked with designating targets could also carry 4 MAM-Ls.
> 
> *Comparison*
> So with very similar aircraft, the Shahpar-II and TB2 complete their mission very differently. The Shahpar-II carries two heavy missiles that use their rocket's energy to get to target. The Shahpar-II seems to have an engagement range smaller than that of TB2 by 5-7 km - this distance can mean the difference between survival and destruction. The TB2 uses the energy provided by the TB2 aircraft to get presumably double the amount of explosives (4 MAM-L's vs 2 Burq) to a target further away. It would appear that the TB2 way to do the mission is more efficient because it appears to give a longer range. This also explains Bayraktar's quest to fly the TB2 higher and higher (27k feet according to a Turkish member here). The TB2 and MAM-L are systems designed and optimized for each other. It is fascinating to try to understand design choices.
> 
> I am hopeful that our systems will get to this level of polish too.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed this post may answer some of the questions that you guys have asked over time.


So here's some insight into the issues with our UAV program that I've come to know of. Issues that prevent our UCAV with the same engine from achieving the same endurance, ceiling, and payload. Disclaimer: I am not an expert in this area and I am only conveying what I was told.


Apparently a big reason is extremely poor composite manufacturing. So your composites need to be manufactured extremely carefully under very controlled conditions with strict quality control of inputs. None of this happens. Parts are manufactured in open environments with little or no quality control of inputs. The result is parts that are needlessly heavy and are inconsistent. An example given was two identical parts made the same day, before and after rain that changed humidity, caused the parts to weigh different and have different structural properties.


Composites manufacturing is another area we seem to be really far behind in with basically hobby level manufacturing capability.

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## sparten

JamD said:


> So here's some insight into the issues with our UAV program that I've come to know of. Issues that prevent our UCAV with the same engine from achieving the same endurance, ceiling, and payload. Disclaimer: I am not an expert in this area and I am only conveying what I was told.
> 
> 
> Apparently a big reason is extremely poor composite manufacturing. So your composites need to be manufactured extremely carefully under very controlled conditions with strict quality control of inputs. None of this happens. Parts are manufactured in open environments with little or no quality control of inputs. The result is parts that are needlessly heavy and are inconsistent. An example given was two identical parts made the same day, before and after rain that changed humidity, caused the parts to weigh different and have different structural properties.
> 
> 
> Composites manufacturing is another area we seem to be really far behind in with basically hobby level manufacturing capability.


I find that difficult to believe, since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level, a legacy of the nuclear program and the necessity of designing and building high speed centrifuges.


----------



## JamD

sparten said:


> I find that difficult to believe, since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level, a legacy of the nuclear program and the necessity of designing and building high speed centrifuges.


A. Straight from the horses mouth.
B. I'm pretty sure all of that metallurgical expertise is either lost due to a combination of time and our infamous silos of idaras or at best just siloed at KRL.
C. Composite manufacturing and centrifuge manufacturing are very very very different technologies (obviously) but you knew that.

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## sparten

JamD said:


> A. Straight from the horses mouth.


Cannot comment on that


JamD said:


> B. I'm pretty sure all of that metallurgical expertise is either lost due to a combination of time and our infamous silos of idaras or at best just siloed at KRL.


Unlikely,. One of the things AQ did well was to diffuse expertise across various departments. Lots of KRL typed ended up at PAC and HIT.


JamD said:


> C. Composite manufacturing and centrifuge manufacturing are very very very different technologies (obviously) but you knew that.


Errr, sorry what. Very high speed Centrifuges were literally one of the first applications for advanced composites and they remain one of the most complicated problems in composite manufacturing. There is a reason we have made about 5000 centrifuges, total, and hundreds of bombs while the Iranians have 20,000 active and still struggle to make one and its not because our ability to manufacture composites is poor.

I am not doubting the story. However, you need to be careful in reading about one particular **** up and using that as evidence of general failure.


----------



## Tipu7

sparten said:


> since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level,


Metallurgy and Material Science in Pakistan and high level?
Reality is exact opposite. 
With a few exception in the nuclear domain (that too is subjected to debate), the quality of these fields in Pakistan is terrible to say the least.

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## JamD

sparten said:


> Cannot comment on that
> 
> Unlikely,. One of the things AQ did well was to diffuse expertise across various departments. Lots of KRL typed ended up at PAC and HIT.
> 
> Errr, sorry what. Very high speed Centrifuges were literally one of the first applications for advanced composites and they remain one of the most complicated problems in composite manufacturing. There is a reason we have made about 5000 centrifuges, total, and hundreds of bombs while the Iranians have 20,000 active and still struggle to make one and its not because our ability to manufacture composites is poor.
> 
> I am not doubting the story. However, you need to be careful in reading about one particular **** up and using that as evidence of general failure.


Ok you are welcome to your opinions as I am to mine.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Chief of Air Staff, PAF, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Babar is on an official visit to Bayraktar National Technology Center, Turkey...

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## ghazi52

,.,.
PAF officer inspecting a Bayraktar Akinci drone before a training mission, which is carrying 4 glide bombs on the centerline pylon.

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.
Initial Batch of PAF UAV operators have completed their training on Akinci Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs)..

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistan Air Force Bayraktar TB-2 hunter-killer UCAV, assigned to the 36th Tactical Attack Wing of the Northern Air Command PAF going out on a training sortie over northern Punjab.

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## RAMPAGE

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> View attachment 887970












Thankfully, this was not an Ertugrul reference. Small mercies.

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## nwmalik

Are we acquiring any suicide drones?


----------



## Princeps Senatus

nwmalik said:


> Are we acquiring any suicide drones?


We should make our own


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Soon we will have many squadrons of these lethal machines.



*


----------



## araz

nwmalik said:


> Are we acquiring any suicide drones?


Let us mount Fazlu deisel and showbaza Shareef and bomb India. Allthe children will get done, there will be no deisel as Fazlu will corner all the agencies


----------



## Cool_Soldier

A valuable addition in Drone Tech.
Both are extra punch for us and will compensate the shortage of Attack Helicopters meanwhile.


----------



## Riz

these things are too dangerous for us pak civilans , UN should take notice because the dollar hungry generals may used against pak people in future

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## AeroEngineer

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> Initial Batch of PAF UAV operators have completed their training on Akinci Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs)..
> 
> View attachment 888387
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 888388
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 888389


Are GDPs being trained to operate these or are the operators being treated at par with GDPs? In first glance their wings appear to be the same as GDPs whereas Turkish training officers’ wings appear to be distinct as to mark them as drone operators. If these are indeed GDPs, are these grounded or non-jets GDPs given this opportunity? Asking since this will create a mess in the traditional hierarchy of branches vis-à-vis promotions/ flying pay etc.


----------



## arslank03

AeroEngineer said:


> Are GDPs being trained to operate these or are the operators being treated at par with GDPs? In first glance their wings appear to be the same as GDPs whereas Turkish training officers’ wings appear to be distinct as to mark them as drone operators. If these are indeed GDPs, are these grounded or non-jets GDPs given this opportunity? Asking since this will create a mess in the traditional hierarchy of branches vis-à-vis promotions/ flying pay etc.




gdps

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## Bleek

Riz said:


> these things are too dangerous for us pak civilans , UN should take notice because the dollar hungry generals may used against pak people in future


Are you suggesting sanction, demilitarize and denuclearise Pakistan? 😯


----------



## Riz

Bleek said:


> Are you suggesting sanction, demilitarize and denuclearise Pakistan? 😯


Jis tarha sary naghmay tumary liay hain , bilkal ise tarha sary nukes aor weapons bhi hamary liay hain 😂😂

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## Bleek

Riz said:


> Jis tarha sary naghmay tumary liay hain , bilkal ise tarha sary nukes aor weapons bhi hamary liay hain 😂😂


What does naghmay mean? Lol

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## Riz

Bleek said:


> What does naghmay mean? Lol


Naghmay = War songs ( Unlimited victories of our brave Generals)

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## EternalMortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583688351978512384

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## [--Leo--]

Do we have any update on Anka Local Production?


----------



## syed_yusuf

Kizilelma is the project pakistan join join asap.


----------



## Oublious

[--Leo--] said:


> Do we have any update on Anka Local Production?




you did not buy anka...


----------



## SQ8

[--Leo--] said:


> Do we have any update on Anka Local Production?


Abandoned in favor of TB-2 and Akinci

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## syed_yusuf

What is the status of WL2

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## Shabi1

Revealed in 2018 I think any updates on Pakistan's air to air capable stealth UCAV?





Specs/layout seem very similar to China's star shadow UCAV. Unable to find it but first time I saw it on twitter source claimed it has air to air capability.












China to expand drone offerings with Star Shadow UCAV


At the 2018 Singapore Air Show, a company from Chengdu – Star UAV System Company – is promoting its stealthy unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV), the Star Shadow, to prospective export customers...




quwa.org












New Chinese Armed UAV Project Unveiled


The Star UAV Systems Star Shaodw is set for a 2019 first flight




www.ainonline.com

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

These two will form the backbone of our strike and surveillance apparatus.

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## Zarvan

syed_yusuf said:


> What is the status of WL2


Being inducted.


----------



## Zarvan

Y


Oublious said:


> you did not buy anka...


Yes, we did with TOT.


----------



## syed_yusuf

Zarvan said:


> Being inducted.


Are they been made in Pakistan?


----------



## Legio XI The Ironclads

1st Customer Of ‘Super Bayraktar’ UAVs, Pakistan Completes Training On Turkish ‘Cutting Edge’ Akinci Drones​









1st Customer Of 'Super Bayraktar' UAVs, Pakistan Completes Training On Turkish 'Cutting Edge' Akinci Drones


Pakistan Air Force has completed training on Akinci Drones, the all-new UAV PAF bought from one of its most trusted partners, Turkey.




eurasiantimes.com





​


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583689163370483712

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583115560308838400

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585913594532622342

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585263968364515338


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586790426064965633


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/ACEofPAF/photos/a.710972692343361/5509919855781930


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588832387794104328

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## IblinI

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588832387794104328


When it is for air to ground mission.

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## tphuang

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588832387794104328


this thing is so much better than WL-2 even. Probably going to be the most capable MALE UCAV once it goes into service.

40 hour endurance and 10000 km range. Just think about that. and it can carry 2.3 t of payload. We've already seen it carry AAMs, ARMs, ground attack missiles, ATGMs, EW pods, ASW pods. The flexibility on this thing is quite amazing.

And on top of that, it can do internal weapon load only and is quite stealthy. It's basically the most ideal low-ish cost UCAV you can get.

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## IblinI

tphuang said:


> We've already seen it carry AAMs, ARMs, ground attack missiles, ATGMs, EW pods, ASW pods. The flexibility on this thing is quite amazing.


we can also see miniature drone/loitering munition under its pylon.


----------



## Zarvan

syed_yusuf said:


> Are they been made in Pakistan?


I doubt that news.


----------



## princefaisal

tphuang said:


> this thing is so much better than WL-2 even. Probably going to be the most capable MALE UCAV once it goes into service.
> 
> 40 hour endurance and 10000 km range. Just think about that. and it can carry 2.3 t of payload. We've already seen it carry AAMs, ARMs, ground attack missiles, ATGMs, EW pods, ASW pods. The flexibility on this thing is quite amazing.
> 
> And on top of that, it can do internal weapon load only and is quite stealthy. It's basically the most ideal low-ish cost UCAV you can get.


With so much capabilities, PAF should acquire it as multi-role.


----------



## farooqbhai007

IblinI said:


> When it is for air to ground mission.
> 
> View attachment 893827


With the 2000kg external payload capacity it can easily cab double the payload in which its shown here. Insane.

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## syed_yusuf

I think after akinci paf should moved to jet propulsion based stealth ucav


----------



## Amraam498

princefaisal said:


> With so much capabilities, PAF should acquire it as multi-role.


They already have Akinci for that. Quality of Chinese drones is questionable. There's a reason why PAF is going for Turkish drones instead of buying more Chinese drones.


----------



## Amraam498

Bleek said:


> What does naghmay mean? Lol


Songs


----------



## Amraam498

Shabi1 said:


> Revealed in 2018 I think any updates on Pakistan's air to air capable stealth UCAV?
> View attachment 889146
> 
> Specs/layout seem very similar to China's star shadow UCAV. Unable to find it but first time I saw it on twitter source claimed it has air to air capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China to expand drone offerings with Star Shadow UCAV
> 
> 
> At the 2018 Singapore Air Show, a company from Chengdu – Star UAV System Company – is promoting its stealthy unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV), the Star Shadow, to prospective export customers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Chinese Armed UAV Project Unveiled
> 
> 
> The Star UAV Systems Star Shaodw is set for a 2019 first flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com


It has nothing to do with Pakistan Airforce. This concept was displayed by a UK based provate company. Pakistan does not have technological base to produce such UAVs.


----------



## Path-Finder

*hmmmn, don't seem too happy being seen! 

anyone wants to speculate? *

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## IblinI

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 894430
> 
> 
> View attachment 894431
> 
> 
> 
> *hmmmn, don't seem too happy being seen!
> 
> anyone wants to speculate? *


Where is this at?


----------



## Path-Finder

IblinI said:


> Where is this at?


Indodefence 22

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589875418315620353

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## EternalMortal

Can anyone confirm if this is true? Specifically, the TB2 & Akinci.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590418997690142721

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## AlKardai

EternalMortal said:


> Can anyone confirm if this is true? Specifically, the TB2 & Akinci.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590418997690142721



god damn....


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Will not mind Pakistan having a few of these as well.  










__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1306805437245861891

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## Super Falcon

Bayraktar Akinci Drones will be lethal drones PAF made right decision to procure them with TOT to be manufactured in Pakistan

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## Jango

EternalMortal said:


> Can anyone confirm if this is true? Specifically, the TB2 & Akinci.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590418997690142721



Assembly or manufacturing?


----------



## IblinI

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Will not mind Pakistan having a few of these as well.
> View attachment 895990
> 
> 
> View attachment 895991
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1306805437245861891


The pics you showing are Chinese Tengden TB-001
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ngden_TB-001&usg=AOvVaw0BjGnDLgBgMyF4c2ejWOya​


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## EternalMortal

Jango said:


> Assembly or manufacturing?



no clue about either. was only asking b/c only psf made this announcement.


----------



## ghazi52

Group Photo :... Pakistan Air Force Pilots & Crew Members during their Training for Akinci Drone in Turkiye.

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## ghazi52

.,,.,
Shahpar II Armed UAV by GIDS Being displayed at IDEAS 2022..

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## NooriNuth

ghazi52 said:


> .,,.,
> Shahpar II Armed UAV by GIDS Being displayed at IDEAS 2022..
> 
> View attachment 896742


Should be deployed at Afghanistan border. 
They attack us every day.


----------



## tphuang

Amraam498 said:


> They already have Akinci for that. Quality of Chinese drones is questionable. There's a reason why PAF is going for Turkish drones instead of buying more Chinese drones.


what? you think Turkish tech is lower than Chinese tech? What is going on in this forum.

Take a look at WL-3 and compare it to Akinci. Which one do you think has lower RCS and is more survivable? The difference is night and day.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
Explorer VTOL 🇵🇰 by a Pakistani company "Integrated Dynamics" 

IDEAS 2022

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Ababeel V-5 Drone made by Pakistan Ordnance Factory - POF displayed at IDEAS 2022..

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## Zarvan

EternalMortal said:


> Can anyone confirm if this is true? Specifically, the TB2 & Akinci.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590418997690142721


I know this guy and I can assure you it's all true.


----------



## Riz



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Ababeel MR-5 by POF

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593111265832226816


----------



## Amraam498

tphuang said:


> what? you think Turkish tech is lower than Chinese tech? What is going on in this forum.
> 
> Take a look at WL-3 and compare it to Akinci. Which one do you think has lower RCS and is more survivable? The difference is night and day.


Kehna kia chahtay ho?


----------



## Bleek

Riz said:


> View attachment 896954
> View attachment 896955


What drone?


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Bleek said:


> What drone?


TB2 by the looks of it


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593516398214512641

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## nomi007

Is he Indian
Military attaché​?


----------



## fatman17

Pakistan integrating TB2 into air-defence network​by Akhil Kadidal & Akshara Parakala









A Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 UAV with its mobile ground control stations in the background. Previous satellite imagery has identified one TB2 at the PAF's Murid Air Force Base. (Ukroboronprom)

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been working to integrate new unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) assets into its air-defence network. This includes the country's recent acquisition of the Baykar Bayraktar (Standard-Bearer) TB2 medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) tactical UAV.

In a statement on 28 September, the PAF said that it conducted an operational air-defence exercise to foster “synergy” in counter-air operations. In video imagery of the exercise, the PAF showed the involvement of two TB2s and at least three Leonardo Airborne and Space Systems Falco UAVs.

_Janes _has learnt that the UAVs are being integrated with the air-defence network in the PAF's Southern Air Command.

According to the air force, the PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, visited an unidentified operational airbase to “assess the integration of newly acquired UAS into the PAF's operational construct”.

The PAF imagery confirms the operational deployment of TB2s in the air force. Video imagery of the exercise suggests that the PAF has purchased at least two TB2s.

This is based on the serial number (22-102), which appears in one of the TB2s depicted in the video. Based on the PAF's numeral system, this indicates that the UAV is the second aircraft in the series to be acquired.

_Janes _had earlier reported about a video shared by PAF's Directorate General Public Relations (DGPR) on 11 March, which included imagery of the TB2 and the Bayraktar Akıncı. At the time, the TB2 was shown with PAF insignia.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Chinese Tengden TB-001 MALE UCAV. MTOW: 3.3 tonnes External Payload Capacity: 1.7 tonnes Combat Range: 8,000 km Service Ceiling: 33,000 feet Time on Station (Endurance): 36 hours Very impressive.

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## IblinI

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Chinese Tengden TB-001 MALE UCAV. MTOW: 3.3 tonnes External Payload Capacity: 1.7 tonnes Combat Range: 8,000 km Service Ceiling: 33,000 feet Time on Station (Endurance): 36 hours Very impressive.
> View attachment 899017


Their whole team was from CAC.

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Chinese Tengden TB-001 MALE UCAV. MTOW: 3.3 tonnes External Payload Capacity: 1.7 tonnes Combat Range: 8,000 km Service Ceiling: 33,000 feet Time on Station (Endurance): 36 hours Very impressive.
> View attachment 899017


Would a drone that large and slow last long enough to use that many missiles in combat??


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,
The Eye of MALE UCAV SHAHPAR-II.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Akinci HALE High Altitude Long Endurance) UAV & it's weaponry...

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## HRK

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> The Eye of MALE UCAV SHAHPAR-II.
> 
> 
> View attachment 901004


Mard ki nigha hamesha hi se buri hoti hai aur iis MALE ki tu 4, 4 ainkha hai ...

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> Mard ki nigha hamesha hi se buri hoti hai aur iis MALE ki tu 4, 4 ainkha hai ...


Bohat khunkhwar nazar hai iski😂

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## tphuang

Ali_Baba said:


> Would a drone that large and slow last long enough to use that many missiles in combat??


you should ask the Saudis. They invested big money in this thing with local production line and transfer of technology.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Future acquisition!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599027871586013184

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF has inducted drones capable of carrying lethal arsenal which will manifold increase its Counter Terror Capability. This will spare mainstream fighters for more focused operations & training for main adversary. These drones will also compliment CAS missions

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## MuslimRAJPUT

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> PAF has inducted drones capable of carrying lethal arsenal which will manifold increase its Counter Terror Capability. This will spare mainstream fighters for more focused operations & training for main adversary. These drones will also compliment CAS missions
> View attachment 903512


Has Pakistan officially inducted or even purchased WL-2???


----------



## farooqbhai007

MuslimRAJPUT said:


> Has Pakistan officially inducted or even purchased WL-2???


In service for more than a year now and you guys show up with ?????


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## Tank131

Frankly, i think Pakistan is operating too many different types of UCAV.

Burraq (which I will wager is not in production any longer) 
Shahpar II
WL-2
TB-2
Akinci

With Shahpar II and WL-2, i really dont see why the PAF bought TB-2. Unless it is dissatisfied with Shahpar and WL-2, in which case, why get them? Especially if TB-2 is going to be locally built. The PAF, PN, and PA should be directed to streamline their acquisitions and the armed forces should try to operate 2 main types of UAV. 

For MALE role, either TB-2, shahpar 2 or WL-2. Multiple redundant platforms lead to logistical problems and more cost. If you are going for TB-2, integrate some local weapons like Barq/AR-1. 

For HALE, Akinci.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I love this beauty, hopefully in PAF hands soon.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A NOTAM was given today for the first flight of Bayraktar KIZILELMA

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## Bleek

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> I love this beauty, hopefully in PAF hands soon.
> View attachment 903825


If we get it, it should be the B-version capable of supersonic flight. 

But I don't think we are in any particular rush as of now. I think we will wait for India to introduce stealth into the region first for aircraft.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Love this version of Wing Loong 1E which is Fully Armed with lethal weaponry

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## IblinI

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Love this version of Wing Loong 1E which is Fully Armed with lethal weaponry
> View attachment 904174
> 
> View attachment 904175


Intensly used of composite material.


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## ghazi52

.,..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600782682732265472

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## Horse_Rider

Tank131 said:


> Frankly, i think Pakistan is operating too many different types of UCAV.
> 
> Burraq (which I will wager is not in production any longer)
> Shahpar II
> WL-2
> TB-2
> Akinci
> 
> With Shahpar II and WL-2, i really dont see why the PAF bought TB-2. Unless it is dissatisfied with Shahpar and WL-2, in which case, why get them? Especially if TB-2 is going to be locally built. The PAF, PN, and PA should be directed to streamline their acquisitions and the armed forces should try to operate 2 main types of UAV.
> 
> For MALE role, either TB-2, shahpar 2 or WL-2. Multiple redundant platforms lead to logistical problems and more cost. If you are going for TB-2, integrate some local weapons like Barq/AR-1.
> 
> For HALE, Akinci.



The tech and advancements in manufacturing are turning out pretty much every 3 years some even 100 improvement on previous version. But I agree, standardization is needed. For example. Shahpar or WL or Buraq didn't carry the payload with sensors that was considered ideal for combat. But they were acquired as when they were built, that was the standard. 

However, Wing Long II upgrades and TB-II added more munitions (plus TB2 hype) and it was available to naturally the PAF bought it. WL might've become Army's choice not sure. 

But from now on, we should use optimal solutions by acquiring Akinci and KizilElma for Sea, Land, Air. These can carry advance AESA, can be used for AEW and CAP as these can fire BVR's so perfect for line 1 of air defense available 24 hours 7 days a week, backed by the J-10C or F-16's or JFT's. These carry SOM's and other munitions, so perfect for naval and land attack roles, for a fraction of the cost of operating fighter jets. 

If I was in PAF planning, I'd have standardized: Tier I (Combat duty + AEW + ISR + Maritime) Akinci + KizilElma, and Tier II Land Attack: TB-II and WL-II, Tier III (ISR + Limited Combat for COIN, etc) WL-II / Burraq / Shah Par

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## Ali_Baba

The Kizilelma will pose a significant threat to the Indian S400's with their stealth profiles and associated standoff weapons. This particular UCAV will worry the Indians ALOT ... and the turks will be able to perfectly tune the Kizilelma against their own S400's for Pakistan requirements ....

Indian S400's - be afraid - be very afraid !!!!!

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## MuslimRAJPUT

farooqbhai007 said:


> In service for more than a year now and you guys show up with ?????


My bad. Had it confused with the recently released WL-3.


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## PanzerKiel



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

UAVs are not primary weapons but force multipliers! If integrated well with main air element, they can wreak havoc. Nagorno-Karabakh War remains an example However, Indians always lacked in their understanding & employment of force multipliers. Feb 2019 remains one such example.

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## TaimiKhan

Guys, if anyone can download and upload this video. 

For private sector, this is just amazing. 

Couldn't believe we have such potential in private sector and that also on such low level. If these guys get proper support and resources, they can make very good drones. With such much applications from surveillance to kamikaze drones, not only can give to Pak Army but great export potential. 









Big achievement in the world of technology, Pakistani Engineer introduced a hybrid drone | ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ #sunotv #hybriddrone #pakistanitalent | By SUNO TV | Faceb


38K views, 1.5K likes, 189 loves, 42 comments, 306 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from SUNO TV: ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ...




fb.watch













Big achievement in the world of technology, Pakistani Engineer introduced a hybrid drone | ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ #sunotv #hybriddrone #pakistanitalent | By SUNO TV | Faceb


38K views, 1.5K likes, 189 loves, 42 comments, 306 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from SUNO TV: ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ...




fb.watch

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## farooqbhai007

TaimiKhan said:


> Guys, if anyone can download and upload this video.
> 
> For private sector, this is just amazing.
> 
> Couldn't believe we have such potential in private sector and that also on such low level. If these guys get proper support and resources, they can make very good drones. With such much applications from surveillance to kamikaze drones, not only can give to Pak Army but great export potential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big achievement in the world of technology, Pakistani Engineer introduced a hybrid drone | ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ #sunotv #hybriddrone #pakistanitalent | By SUNO TV | Faceb
> 
> 
> 38K views, 1.5K likes, 189 loves, 42 comments, 306 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from SUNO TV: ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch


Yea no. Have u seen the IDEAS Images thread, its filled with vtol drones by private sector companies apart from this one.


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## TaimiKhan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yea no. Have u seen the IDEAS Images thread, its filled with vtol drones by private sector companies apart from this one.



How many had drones flying videos or internal factory pics or videos shared ?? 

Having just models and working mode drone are different things. 

My point was that we have a video showing drones in action, their manufacturing process, softwares etc being showcased.

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604421445588860928






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604413993766068225





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604433792453775361

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## sparten

Tank131 said:


> Frankly, i think Pakistan is operating too many different types of UCAV.
> 
> Burraq (which I will wager is not in production any longer)
> Shahpar II
> WL-2
> TB-2
> Akinci
> 
> With Shahpar II and WL-2, i really dont see why the PAF bought TB-2. Unless it is dissatisfied with Shahpar and WL-2, in which case, why get them? Especially if TB-2 is going to be locally built. The PAF, PN, and PA should be directed to streamline their acquisitions and the armed forces should try to operate 2 main types of UAV.
> 
> For MALE role, either TB-2, shahpar 2 or WL-2. Multiple redundant platforms lead to logistical problems and more cost. If you are going for TB-2, integrate some local weapons like Barq/AR-1.
> 
> For HALE, Akinci.


Different services have different requirements.


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## Sinnerman108

TaimiKhan said:


> Guys, if anyone can download and upload this video.
> 
> For private sector, this is just amazing.
> 
> Couldn't believe we have such potential in private sector and that also on such low level. If these guys get proper support and resources, they can make very good drones. With such much applications from surveillance to kamikaze drones, not only can give to Pak Army but great export potential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big achievement in the world of technology, Pakistani Engineer introduced a hybrid drone | ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ #sunotv #hybriddrone #pakistanitalent | By SUNO TV | Faceb
> 
> 
> 38K views, 1.5K likes, 189 loves, 42 comments, 306 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from SUNO TV: ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big achievement in the world of technology, Pakistani Engineer introduced a hybrid drone | ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ #sunotv #hybriddrone #pakistanitalent | By SUNO TV | Faceb
> 
> 
> 38K views, 1.5K likes, 189 loves, 42 comments, 306 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from SUNO TV: ٹیکنالوجی کی دنیا میں بڑا کارنامہ، پاکستانی انجینئر نے ہائبرڈ ڈرون متعارف کرادیا دیکھیں خصوصی رپورٹ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch



Ahem, 
as far as the electronics are concerned that is almost all off the shelf commercial products, available to everyone. 

The way they are doing the fuselage, is primitive at best; probably copied the design. ( ask me how I know that hehehehe ). 

Another engineer agha,

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## Sinnerman108

TaimiKhan said:


> How many had drones flying videos or internal factory pics or videos shared ??
> 
> Having just models and working mode drone are different things.
> 
> My point was that we have a video showing drones in action, their manufacturing process, softwares etc being showcased.



That is not how it works. 

My experience from somewhere ... 

You need to write the flight controller, 
that flight controller alone needs millions in investment , 
you will use a real time embedded operating system, guess how much that costs.
you need very specific hardware to run that software, 
you need communication equipment, not the 2.4 GHz controller that this guy was using. 
heck, have a look at the power plant, 
The jet they showed was a commercial engine used in RC planes. 

He just pushed a 6S LiPO battery in it. that battery will drain in 5-7 minutes MAXIMUM. 
Even the connector he used was an XT90.

So, lets learn to call toys as toys. 
It takes a lot more than that to create a trusty machine.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ASELSAN has developed ESM Pods for UAVs, that will be used on TB2 & Akinci Drones

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Integrated Sungur Short Range Air to Air Missile with TB2 & AKINCI Drones. It will be helpful for the creation of a low-cost air patrol concept in eliminating threats such as attack helicopters and enemy UAVs

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Lethality | Flexibility | Beauty | Diversity

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1605978214517469184


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## SQ8

Just as a reality check that these are not miracle weapons - Russia EW knocks out 90% of Ukranian Drones including TB2/

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## That Guy

SQ8 said:


> Just as a reality check that these are not miracle weapons - Russia EW knocks out 90% of Ukranian Drones including TB2/


Pretty much. At this point I imagine Ukraine's goal now is to target Russian EW.


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## IblinI

Interesting new footage from CETC, Pakistan could be a potential buyer.






Footage from the same company two years ago.

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## Ali_Baba

IblinI said:


> Interesting new footage from CETC, Pakistan could be a potential buyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Footage from the same company two years ago.



Maybe - but given the proliferation of home grown UAVs and the assortment of drones - one "hopes" that this a project that they build at home versus importing. Azm made no sense to do in Pakistan - but this kind of stuff does make sense to do in Pakistan.

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## IblinI

Ali_Baba said:


> Maybe - but given the proliferation of home grown UAVs and the assortment of drones - one "hopes" that this a project that they build at home versus importing. Azm made no sense to do in Pakistan - but this kind of stuff does make sense to do in Pakistan.


this system is for army frontier unit not airforce, with 48 loitering drones mounted on a single vehicle, I believed one or two should be enough for a battalion.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Just as a reality check that these are not miracle weapons - Russia EW knocks out 90% of Ukranian Drones including TB2/


It reminds me of the point you made some time ago about the value of high-speed attack/recon helicopters. I wonder if the Turks are thinking about a stealthy recon heli to complement the T-929.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It reminds me of the point you made some time ago about the value of high-speed attack/recon helicopters. I wonder if the Turks are thinking about a stealthy recon heli to complement the T-929.


I think they’ll be happy with their UaVs. I think what is likely to happen is that most UAVs will start transitioning to semi VLO planforms and then the EW side will have to adapt against them. The US Army was trained in anti UAV procedures back in the early 90s so they are twenty years ahead in that too.

I still remember a time article that came out on Jan 2000 talking about how SAMs would make manned flight extremely risky and stealthy UaVs would be the norm. 

Something like the RQ-170

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Akinci armed drone


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Wing Loong II Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ALPAGUT Loitering Munition with Akinci would be a lethal Combination.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592475110799474690

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
Pakistan Air Force Bayraktar TB2 UAV most probably from No. 786 UAV Sqn. seen at PAF Murid.

Ground Control Station (GCS) can also be seen.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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