# HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]



## SQ8

Please continue all discussion from this thread here. 
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 689

Anyone have any numbers on projected life cycle cost of Tejas?

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## Echo_419

Oscar said:


> Please continue all discussion from this thread here.
> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 689
> 
> Anyone have any numbers on projected life cycle cost of Tejas?



Yahoo,I am the 1st one to post on this thread 
On topic 
Life cycle cost will be significantly lower than MKIs or the Rafael

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## halupridol

Echo_419 said:


> Yahoo I am the 1st one to post on this thread


congrats,,,,,,,ab yeh thread bhi 500 page chaleg,,,usme koi shaq nahi,
par tab tak lca induct hoga ya nahi,,,wo sure nahi ha

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## IRAN 1802

Beautiful

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## Echo_419

halupridol said:


> congrats,,,,,,,ab yeh thread bhi 500 page chaleg,,,usme koi shaq nahi,
> par tab tak lca induct hoga ya nahi,,,wo sure nahi ha



PDF ke bache bache ke mouu par abh mera naam hoga

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## SQ8

Echo_419 said:


> Yahoo,I am the 1st one to post on this thread
> On topic
> Life cycle cost will be significantly lower than MKIs or the Rafael



Yahoo.. you really did not answer the question. That is like saying that a motorcycle will have lesser costs than a BMW.

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## Krate M

@Oscar life cycle costs can only be calculated for a fighter plane which has completed a certain number of years in service as it requires a calculations of which spare parts are needed more and which are needed less.

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## Echo_419

Oscar said:


> Yahoo.. you really did not answer the question. That is like saying that a motorcycle will have lesser costs than a BMW.


We'll let me get you someone who will 
@sancho @Abingboy


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## surya kiran

Oscar said:


> Please continue all discussion from this thread here.
> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 689
> 
> Anyone have any numbers on projected life cycle cost of Tejas?



Are you looking for just life cycle cost of Tejas for the IAF or the total cost to India?


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## SQ8

surya kiran said:


> Are you looking for just life cycle cost of Tejas for the IAF or the total cost to India?


Cost of flying a Tejas on a mission per hour along with life cycle costs.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Cost of flying a Tejas on a mission per hour along with life cycle costs.



Cost per hour can be at par with Gripen since both are flying with same engine and since most of the parts are own stuff it may be lower than of Gripen.

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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> Cost per hour can be at par with Gripen since both are flying with same engine and since most of the parts are own stuff it may be lower than of Gripen.



Too simplistic an estimation. The gripen A has different costs than the C.. and those too are based on estimates given fuel consumption, engine operating costs and parts usage.


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Too simplistic an estimation. The gripen A has different costs than the C.. and those too are based on estimates given fuel consumption, engine operating costs and parts usage.



Well I didn't see any such estimates anywhere for tejas, it should be much lower than any other jets operating in IAF. All we know the sortie rates are very high compared to other jets. It did 3 in a day at high areas of leh


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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> Well I didn't see any such estimates anywhere for tejas, it should be much lower than any other jets operating in IAF. All we know the sortie rates are very high compared to other jets. It did* 3 in a day *at high areas of leh



That is no indication of anything. By that contrast PAF F-7PGs have been tested doing 6 -40 minute sorties from Skardu on and off. What is important is to know the cost vs the capability that the Tejas is bringing, and it surprises me that no claimed official data is available as it goes against the character of HAL(or DRDO or any Indian R&D for that matter) not to immediately give out data.


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## Krate M

@Oscar let the plane be inducted, once the plane starts ops at a full fledged pace and then only can the life cycle cost be calculated.
The fuel cost, the spares needed and weapons costs as well as ops cost in different environment can be calculated. Gun trials and bvr trails will be able to clarify the costs involved.


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## Supply&Demand

i did not see this video before today n i dont know if this was posted before..so...

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Too simplistic an estimation. The gripen A has different costs than the C.. and those too are based on estimates given fuel consumption, engine operating costs and parts usage.



And since even LCA MK1 is still only under development with changing prototypes, the costs will keep changing now too. Until the fighter is produced and in IAF service there, there won't be reliable figures, I even think that only the FOC version will give proper figures that can be compared to Gripen C/D, but then again it will depend on how IAF calculate their costs.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## CONNAN

*HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year*

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) was cleared to enter operational service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Now Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) faces the daunting transition from handcrafting Tejas prototypes into factory-assembling the 200-fighter Tejas fleet that Defence Minister A K Antony has envisioned.

The ministry of defence (MoD) has sanctioned Rs 1,556 crore for HAL's high-tech production line that aims to build 12 Tejas fighters each year. The funds will come from the IAF (25 per cent); the navy (25 per cent), while HAL will put up half the money.

Business Standard visited the new Tejas production line, an expansive 28,000-square metre facility in four massive hangars in HAL, Bangalore. Work is already underway on the first IAF order of 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, with an order for 20 more in the pipeline once the aircraft gets "final operational clearance" next year. The first two fighters being "series produced" - they are numbered SP-1 and SP-2 - are visibly taking shape.

"By end-March 2014, SP-1 will fly, and SP-2 will fly a few months later. By the end of next year four Tejas will be in production. In 2015-16, we will build six fighters, and in 2016-17, we will build nine. We are targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters," says V Sridharan, the project manager hand-chosen to build the LCA. Earlier, he set up HAL's production line for the Hawk trainer.

Over the years, excellent designs like the Arjun tank have failed the transition from design into product. This is because India's archaic defence production policies make the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) responsible for designing equipment, with production responsibility then passing onto a network of eight defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) and 39 ordnance factories (OFs) with long reputations for sloppy production. Having played little role in design, the manufacturing agencies struggle to produce the system.

The Tejas could be a game-changer. Firstly, HAL has played a major role both in designing the Tejas and in building prototypes for the flight-test programme. Secondly, HAL has brought a radically new approach to Tejas production, adopting global aerospace manufacturing standards and an unprecedented approach to quality control.

Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.

"As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels," explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called "locators") on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.

It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of "stabilising" the Tejas line.

"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.

That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.

Within ADA and in HAL, there is expectation that better production could improve aircraft performance. "Better build quality could well improve the Tejas' aerodynamic performance, reducing drag, and improving its speed, rate of climb and turn rate," says a designer.

HAL's chairman, RK Tyagi, explains that the international best practices being introduced in the Tejas assembly line will be replicated across all the aerospace giant's production lines, including the Sukhoi-30MKI line in Nashik and the Hawk trainer line in Bangalore.

"We have earmarked Rs 3,500 crore of HAL funds for making our production lines world class. Our focus is to gain the IAF's confidence. We will do what is necessary for that," says Tyagi.

HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year | Business Standard News


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> That is no indication of anything. By that contrast PAF F-7PGs have been tested doing 6 -40 minute sorties from Skardu on and off. What is important is to know the cost vs the capability that the Tejas is bringing, and it surprises me that no claimed official data is available as it goes against the character of HAL(or DRDO or any Indian R&D for that matter) not to immediately give out data.


The numbers are not out yet, OM's have been released. production line will go through a restructuring, each assembly station will have MRP kiosks. Once MK2 enters production, most likely the PLM systems will be fully implemented with completion of Gate III processes. We can expect to see the life cycle costs in two years.



Krate M said:


> @Oscar let the plane be inducted, once the plane starts ops at a full fledged pace and then only can the life cycle cost be calculated.
> The fuel cost, the spares needed and weapons costs as well as ops cost in different environment can be calculated. Gun trials and bvr trails will be able to clarify the costs involved.


Life cycle cost of the aircraft will not include munition systems, it will however involve 1500 hr mark inspection, 6500 hr Landing gear upgrade retrofit, and avionics inspections and ovehaul. Other costs will be Station service equipment, service technicians costs and warranty claims.

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## Harisudan

You mean Sancho????Oh noooo??


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## Harisudan

Abingdonboy said:


>


Feel so proud to see them Tyres burning and the Small Boy zooohing past that carrier like platform..Jai Hind!!!


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## sancho

CONNAN said:


> *HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year*



 The news is from *December 30, 2013*


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## CONNAN

sancho said:


> The news is from *December 30, 2013*


sorry bro i have alerts for LCA updates i did not see the year my bad i gt mixed up

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## sancho

*LCA Tejas Calendar - 2015 **
*
LCA Tejas Calendar - 2015 | Facebook

Including a new one of the NP1 with the centerline fuel tank:

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## sudhir007

With Full Load

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## kurup

sudhir007 said:


> With Full Load



Don't think it is full load ....... centerline is empty ....


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## sancho

Possible mission configs of the upgraded Mirage 2000 and LCA MK1 in IAF

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## CONNAN

*i am not sure about the integration of anti ship missiles It not Certified to carry ALCM and Anti Shipping Missions or Never Performed. As far as i know *


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Don't think it is full load ....... centerline is empty ....



I guess they meant heaviest currently possible load. 



CONNAN said:


> *i am not sure about the integration of anti ship missiles It not Certified to carry ALCM and Anti Shipping Missions or Never Performed. As far as i know *



Those configs doesn't include the fuel tanks needed in every mission, therefor are unrealistic. Anti Ship missiles will be added sooner or later, most likely the Kh 35 for commonality to Mig 29Ks and Mig 29UPGs, but surely no heavy stand of missiles, because LCA would have to remove fuel tanks for that. IAF and IN have better fighters for these heavier roles.

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## indiatester

sancho said:


> I guess they meant heaviest currently possible load.
> 
> 
> 
> Those configs doesn't include the fuel tanks needed in every mission, therefor are unrealistic. Anti Ship missiles will be added sooner or later, most likely the Kh 35 for commonality to Mig 29Ks and Mig 29UPGs, but surely no heavy stand of missiles, because LCA would have to remove fuel tanks for that. IAF and IN have better fighters for these heavier roles.


Without fuel tanks, what is the combat radius of LCA?


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Without fuel tanks, what is the combat radius of LCA?



Can't tell you that, there are some figures available giving 500Km as combat range, but not in what load config and altitude. We will have to wait till the fighter is in IAF service to get more reliable figures on range.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> I guess they meant heaviest currently possible load.



Is there any restriction to use the centerline ??

IIRC , they can add a sized down fuel tank .


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## indiatester

sancho said:


> Can't tell you that, there are some figures available giving 500Km as combat range, but not in what load config and altitude. We will have to wait till the fighter is in IAF service to get more reliable figures on range.


But we know the internal fuel capacity is ~2500 ltrs. Can't we made a rough calculation?
I'd say roughly around 150kms (considering that with external fuel tanks its capacity is ~5000ltrs and combat radius as 300 in this case)
Either I am dumb or the range with internal fuel only seems lame 
/me hides behind flame proof table


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Is there any restriction to use the centerline ??



Payload!

2 x 1200l fuel tanks
1 x LDP
2 x 1000lb LGBs
2 x WVR missiles
=> around 3300Kg

Current payload limitation is 3500Kg.



indiatester said:


> But we know the internal fuel capacity is ~2500 ltrs. Can't we made a rough calculation?



As I said, the range depends on too many factors, we will have to wait for official and reliable specs to compare.

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## greatone

An excellent post by Indranil Roy on bharat rakshak explaining the basics of aeronautics that even a person like me who has studied maths till 10th and physics till 12th can understand.









_As one increases the angle of attack of a wing, the lift and the drag increase almost monotonically (simplification) as shown by two parameters called coefficient of lift and coefficient of drag. But only to a limit (called the critical angle of a wing), at which the airflow separates (completely) from the top of the wing and wing stalls, i.e. lift falls drastically and drag increases exponentially. So there is a limit to how much lift one can generate and hence a limit to how fast a plane can turn.

Now when a fighter comes in to turn, it has a lot of initial speed, i.e. kinetic energy. So it can use its maximum lift capability to get into the tightest turn. But remember, drag also increases drastically. None of the fighters have enough thrust to overcome this level of thrust. So its energy bleeds off, i.e. its speeds falls down. This period of the turn is called the instantaneous turn and the turn rate is called instantaneous turn rate. But this can't continue forever (generally lasts a few seconds). If the speed of the aircraft continues to fall, then at some point it will go below its stall speed, i.e. it will fall to the ground like a stone. This can be overcome by losing potential energy of the plane, but in doing so you lose height i.e. become the cannon-fodder of your opponent. So to maintain a horizontal turn, the pilot has to lower the drag, i.e. decrease the lift aka lower his AoA. By how much? Till the point that the drag is balanced by the thrust of the engine. At this point, the rate of turn is decreased to the sustained rate of turn. So, the instantaneous turn rate is determined by the maximum lift generating ability of the aircraft and the propensity to reach this state as soon as possible. On the other hand, the sustained turn-rate is determined by the drag and the thrust.

The delta wing is excellent instantaneous turn-rates, because it generates large amounts of lift and naturally wants to reach higher AoA. This is because the leading edge of delta wings readily creates large vortices which add to the lift (called vortex lift). But obviously, this fast rate of turn also bleeds off the energy very fast. Beyond this point, the drag of the delta wing (at low altitudes) and slow hard turns is more than the classical wings. Therefore for maintaining the same rate of turn, a delta wing plane at low altitudes needs to have a better thrust to weight ratio.

So, we have learnt that various wings have various advantages and disadvantages. But aircraft designers have to take care of the whole flight envelop. So what should they do? They chose a design point, and make the plane excellent at that envelop around that design-point. Next they try to add things to mitigate the disadvantages at the off-design points. For example, most planes with conventional wings use LERXes with sharp edges and high sweep which generate vortices like the leading edge of a delta wing. The F-16 uses the slats and flaps as part of wings to increase its area (decrease wing-loading) etc. For delta wings, there are two primary methods:1) use a close coupled-canard and 2) use variable extended slats. A close-couple canard works by shedding a vortex which combines with the vortex of the leading edge of the delta-wing and energizes it (the exact aerodynamics is really long and winded to explain in a forum post like this). The variably-extended slats like in (Mirage 2000 and LCA) also work in the similar way. Going from the wing-root to the wing-tip, the vortices from the inner slat (at lower AoA) energizes the vortices from the outer slat (at higher AoA). I will not go into the details here because it depends on a lot of parameters like the sweep of the wing, the AoA, the sharpness of the edge etc.

In case of LCA, the wing and lift is not at all the problem. The co-efficient of lift increases monotonically till about 35 degrees of AoA. The same goes for Co-efficient of drag. The L/D ratio is one of best too by virtue of its very low wing loading. This gives it excellent ITR and roll rates. You now know that LCA would most probably be limited to 26 degree AoA, because at this AoA it generates enough lift to give it extremely good turn-rates. There is unconfirmed reports by Sjha, that it might even be taken to 28 degrees. The designers (as Maity sahab pointed out) went for a compound delta wing, where the outer part of the wing (with larger sweep) provides the capability for excellent ITR, whereas the inside of the wing helps with STR (kind of like 2-design points). The kink in the delta (can be imagined as the innermost slat with no extension) generates a vortex which energizes the vortex from the innermost actual slat, very similar to the what a fixed canard would have done. The question is how can we make the STR of LCA better. One way is to increase the thrust (brute-force), and the second way is to make it more efficient, i.e. increase the Lift-to-drag ratio. Designers of LCA Mk2 are going for both. The late Commodore says, the thrust could be increased on Mk1 (because intakes don't let the Mk1 obtained maximum thrust) and that in itself is enough. 

Okay now, we come to your question. Why did Viggen have a canard in spite of having a compound a delta like Tejas. I have already answered part of that question, because it did not have independent slats like the Mirage 2000 and Tejas (though it tries to do something similar with a dogtooth). The other part of the answer lies in the plane. Remember, what I told you about the design-point. The design-point of that plane was for STOL performance. For that the plane needs to be able to turn its nose up at low speeds. But then the Viggen's elevons were attached to the end of its wings (aka with a short lever arm). So it needed secondary help (aka the canards which had flaps to provide positive lift). Another part of the answer was the Viggen's airframe itself. The Viggen was a pioneer being one of the first fighter planes to use a turbofan engine. However, given the technology of the engines then, the airframe had become very fat and bulky. If they had gone for a traditional wing, the plane would have become really fat, i.e. too much increased in wave-drag (which affects cruise-speed, range and top-speed). So, Viggen's designers (kind of) broke the wing into two wings. The smaller of the two doubles up as a canard. This kind of canard which shares the burden of generating lift along with the main wing is called a high-loaded canard. Of-course it produces other advantages (and also disadvantages). 

Anyway, there are many ways of building a plane to do the same thing. Even within canards there are various ways. The canards that you see EF is a lightly-loaded canard aka a control canard, i.e. it does not produce any lift. The canard on Gripen and Rafale are mostly control canards, but can transition to a loaded canard when required (this is only possible with a FBW). For example, one can see Rafale's canards change roles while taking off from an aircraft carrier. It transitions from a control canard to a highly loaded canard soon after the plane leaves the flight deck. Also there is no silver bullet to building a plane which works exceptionally well across the entire (extremely wide) flight envelop of a modern fighter. Otherwise, all planes would have been the same. For example, three of the best designs from an aerodynamic perspective IMHO are the F-16, Mig-29 and the Rafale. These three have the cleanest airframes which use almost all the possible advantages that can be extracted out of airflows around an airplane. The Rafale is probably the best of the lot because it learned a lot from the other two. It uses the boundary layer over the wing (which the other two don't) and a complex interplay between the canard and the wing-body blend. It places its wing at the exact height where the leading edge can be extended with an extremely sharp LERX by the side of the air intake (not present in the initial prototypes). Anyways, none of these 3 look alike. Therefore, ex. AVM Matheswaran's comments can only be put down as bias. Tejas Mk1's short-comings are not a want of canard. Anybody who knows aerodynamics will tell you that easily, as has been evidenced by numerous studies. Believe it or not!
_
In fact I would recommend reading LCA thread from page 81 onwards

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## greatone



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## Major Shaitan Singh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/552662744432771073

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/552663198583623680

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## RPK




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## sancho

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/552662744432771073
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/552663198583623680



Wonder what takes so long? The roll out was planned for November and the NP2 won't add much design changes to the NP1 other than hopefully a hook, so there shouldn't be a big issue to do the first flight.


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## The enlightened

greatone said:


> An excellent post by Indranil Roy on bharat rakshak explaining the basics of aeronautics that even a person like me who has studied maths till 10th and physics till 12th can understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _As one increases the angle of attack of a wing, the lift and the drag increase almost monotonically (simplification) as shown by two parameters called coefficient of lift and coefficient of drag. But only to a limit (called the critical angle of a wing), at which the airflow separates (completely) from the top of the wing and wing stalls, i.e. lift falls drastically and drag increases exponentially. So there is a limit to how much lift one can generate and hence a limit to how fast a plane can turn.
> 
> Now when a fighter comes in to turn, it has a lot of initial speed, i.e. kinetic energy. So it can use its maximum lift capability to get into the tightest turn. But remember, drag also increases drastically. None of the fighters have enough thrust to overcome this level of thrust. So its energy bleeds off, i.e. its speeds falls down. This period of the turn is called the instantaneous turn and the turn rate is called instantaneous turn rate. But this can't continue forever (generally lasts a few seconds). If the speed of the aircraft continues to fall, then at some point it will go below its stall speed, i.e. it will fall to the ground like a stone. This can be overcome by losing potential energy of the plane, but in doing so you lose height i.e. become the cannon-fodder of your opponent. So to maintain a horizontal turn, the pilot has to lower the drag, i.e. decrease the lift aka lower his AoA. By how much? Till the point that the drag is balanced by the thrust of the engine. At this point, the rate of turn is decreased to the sustained rate of turn. So, the instantaneous turn rate is determined by the maximum lift generating ability of the aircraft and the propensity to reach this state as soon as possible. On the other hand, the sustained turn-rate is determined by the drag and the thrust.
> 
> The delta wing is excellent instantaneous turn-rates, because it generates large amounts of lift and naturally wants to reach higher AoA. This is because the leading edge of delta wings readily creates large vortices which add to the lift (called vortex lift). But obviously, this fast rate of turn also bleeds off the energy very fast. Beyond this point, the drag of the delta wing (at low altitudes) and slow hard turns is more than the classical wings. Therefore for maintaining the same rate of turn, a delta wing plane at low altitudes needs to have a better thrust to weight ratio.
> 
> So, we have learnt that various wings have various advantages and disadvantages. But aircraft designers have to take care of the whole flight envelop. So what should they do? They chose a design point, and make the plane excellent at that envelop around that design-point. Next they try to add things to mitigate the disadvantages at the off-design points. For example, most planes with conventional wings use LERXes with sharp edges and high sweep which generate vortices like the leading edge of a delta wing. The F-16 uses the slats and flaps as part of wings to increase its area (decrease wing-loading) etc. For delta wings, there are two primary methods:1) use a close coupled-canard and 2) use variable extended slats. A close-couple canard works by shedding a vortex which combines with the vortex of the leading edge of the delta-wing and energizes it (the exact aerodynamics is really long and winded to explain in a forum post like this). The variably-extended slats like in (Mirage 2000 and LCA) also work in the similar way. Going from the wing-root to the wing-tip, the vortices from the inner slat (at lower AoA) energizes the vortices from the outer slat (at higher AoA). I will not go into the details here because it depends on a lot of parameters like the sweep of the wing, the AoA, the sharpness of the edge etc.
> 
> In case of LCA, the wing and lift is not at all the problem. The co-efficient of lift increases monotonically till about 35 degrees of AoA. The same goes for Co-efficient of drag. The L/D ratio is one of best too by virtue of its very low wing loading. This gives it excellent ITR and roll rates. You now know that LCA would most probably be limited to 26 degree AoA, because at this AoA it generates enough lift to give it extremely good turn-rates. There is unconfirmed reports by Sjha, that it might even be taken to 28 degrees. The designers (as Maity sahab pointed out) went for a compound delta wing, where the outer part of the wing (with larger sweep) provides the capability for excellent ITR, whereas the inside of the wing helps with STR (kind of like 2-design points). The kink in the delta (can be imagined as the innermost slat with no extension) generates a vortex which energizes the vortex from the innermost actual slat, very similar to the what a fixed canard would have done. The question is how can we make the STR of LCA better. One way is to increase the thrust (brute-force), and the second way is to make it more efficient, i.e. increase the Lift-to-drag ratio. Designers of LCA Mk2 are going for both. The late Commodore says, the thrust could be increased on Mk1 (because intakes don't let the Mk1 obtained maximum thrust) and that in itself is enough.
> 
> Okay now, we come to your question. Why did Viggen have a canard in spite of having a compound a delta like Tejas. I have already answered part of that question, because it did not have independent slats like the Mirage 2000 and Tejas (though it tries to do something similar with a dogtooth). The other part of the answer lies in the plane. Remember, what I told you about the design-point. The design-point of that plane was for STOL performance. For that the plane needs to be able to turn its nose up at low speeds. But then the Viggen's elevons were attached to the end of its wings (aka with a short lever arm). So it needed secondary help (aka the canards which had flaps to provide positive lift). Another part of the answer was the Viggen's airframe itself. The Viggen was a pioneer being one of the first fighter planes to use a turbofan engine. However, given the technology of the engines then, the airframe had become very fat and bulky. If they had gone for a traditional wing, the plane would have become really fat, i.e. too much increased in wave-drag (which affects cruise-speed, range and top-speed). So, Viggen's designers (kind of) broke the wing into two wings. The smaller of the two doubles up as a canard. This kind of canard which shares the burden of generating lift along with the main wing is called a high-loaded canard. Of-course it produces other advantages (and also disadvantages).
> 
> Anyway, there are many ways of building a plane to do the same thing. Even within canards there are various ways. The canards that you see EF is a lightly-loaded canard aka a control canard, i.e. it does not produce any lift. The canard on Gripen and Rafale are mostly control canards, but can transition to a loaded canard when required (this is only possible with a FBW). For example, one can see Rafale's canards change roles while taking off from an aircraft carrier. It transitions from a control canard to a highly loaded canard soon after the plane leaves the flight deck. Also there is no silver bullet to building a plane which works exceptionally well across the entire (extremely wide) flight envelop of a modern fighter. Otherwise, all planes would have been the same. For example, three of the best designs from an aerodynamic perspective IMHO are the F-16, Mig-29 and the Rafale. These three have the cleanest airframes which use almost all the possible advantages that can be extracted out of airflows around an airplane. The Rafale is probably the best of the lot because it learned a lot from the other two. It uses the boundary layer over the wing (which the other two don't) and a complex interplay between the canard and the wing-body blend. It places its wing at the exact height where the leading edge can be extended with an extremely sharp LERX by the side of the air intake (not present in the initial prototypes). Anyways, none of these 3 look alike. Therefore, ex. AVM Matheswaran's comments can only be put down as bias. Tejas Mk1's short-comings are not a want of canard. Anybody who knows aerodynamics will tell you that easily, as has been evidenced by numerous studies. Believe it or not!
> _
> In fact I would recommend reading LCA thread from page 81 onwards


Holy shit. On that site for the 1st time. I have to say that PDF sucks in comparison.


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## sancho

The enlightened said:


> Holy shit. On that site for the 1st time. I have to say that PDF sucks in comparison.



Depends on what you want, if you want a wider and less biased perspective on Pakistani and Chinese arms and systems, PDF has no comparison. That with a very good Indian section too, not to mention the huge collection on infos Manticore has provided here:

Design characteristics of canard & non canard fighters

Air Warfare


BR offers good infos on Indian forces and arms though.

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## Mujraparty

*A Tejas-PV1 light combat aircraft with an advanced electronic warfare suite with in-built jammer flew for the first time here. *

*It gives the pilot an additional capability of nullifying the effect of detected radar threat by appropriate mode of jamming. *

Existing EW systems fitted on various combat aircraft are basic EW equipment known as Radar Warner Receiver to provide warning to the aircraft pilot in case of detection of a radar threat, an official statement said.

After obtaining due flight clearances and certification, the first flight sortie of LCA PV1 with the EW equipment operational, took place here today.

The equipment was noted to be detecting radar signals operating in and around the flight path.

DRDO chief Avinash Chander congratulated the team on the achievement and said "this warfare suite adds an important capability to our LCA".

It is the first fighter aircraft of India fitted with a radar warner and jammer equipment.
Tejas with radar jammer flies maiden sortie | Business Standard News

HYDERABAD, JAN 10:


The fighting power of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas has been sharpened with the aircraft being equipped with an advanced electronic warfare suite (EW suite).

The system was flight tested today in Bengaluru for the first time onboard the Tejas-PV1 combat aircraft, according to an announcement by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official.

*The Suite has been developed by Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a lab specialising in avionics and electronic warfare systems for combat aircrafts.*

*In addition to the Radar Warner, the EW suite tested today is also equipped with Jammer*. *It gives the pilot an additional capability of nullifying the effect of detected Radar threat by appropriate mode of jamming*. Existing EW systems fitted on various combat aircrafts are basic EW equipment known as Radar Warner Receiver to provide warning to the aircraft pilot in case of detection of a Radar threat.

After obtaining due flight clearances and certification, the first flight sortie of LCA PV1 with the *EW equipment operational, took place today. The equipment was noted to be detecting Radar signals operating in and around the flight path.*

Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri, Secretary Department of Def. R&D & DG, DRDO said "This warfare suite adds an important capability to our LCA."

J Manjula, Director DARE said "*LCA is the first fighter aircraft of India fitted with a radar warner and jammer equipment. It has capability for both radar warning and jamming using a Unified EW Technology. Over the coming few months, ADA and DARE will be scheduling further sorties to evaluate the system in various signal scenarios"*.

Tejas with radar jammer flies maiden sortie | Business Standard News

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## gslv mk3

sudhir007 said:


> With Full Load



3 segment slats ??


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## Sri

Source: Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Tejas LCA EW Suite Explained


Tejas LCA is to be equipped with an EW suite developed by DRDO's Defense Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) in collaboration with Israel.

The EW suite contains radar illumination, laser illumination and missile-lock warnings, a radar jammer and a flare dispenser.

The suite is capable of dealing with multiple simultaneous threats from air or ground.

*Radar Warning and Jammer Suite (RWJS)*
The EW suite centerpiece is an integrated Radar Warning and Jammer Suite (RWJS) that can detect when the aircraft is being illuminated by enemy radar, determine the type of radar (ground based or airborne) and its operating mode (track-while-scan, lock-on); alert the pilot and facilitate neutralization of any radar guided surface-to-air or air-to-air missile threat through Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) based signal jamming.

Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) is an electronic method for digitally capturing and coherently re-transmitting RF signal such that the transmitting radar cannot distinguish it from other returns that it receives and processes as targets.

The re-transmitted signal can be tweaked to create false range targets both behind (reactive jamming) and ahead of (predictive jamming) the target intended for protection. Slight variations in frequency can be made to create Doppler (velocity) errors in the victim receiver as well. DRFM can also be used to create distorted phase-fronts at the victim receive antenna which is essential for countering monopulse radar angular measurement techniques. [via Wikipedia]

The DARE RWJS provides 360-deg coverage.

Previous generation fighters, like IAF Jaguars, are equipped with just a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), which could only alert the pilot to hostile radio frequency emissions, but not jam them.

If the DARE EW Suite clears its currently underway (January 2015) trials, Tejas would become the first Indian fighter aircraft to be fitted with a Radar Warner and Jammer equipment.

The DARE RWJS is similar to ELT/568(V)2 developed by Italy's Elettronica S.p.A. and EL/L-8247/8 developed by Israel's ELTA.

Typically a RWJS can be integrated with any airborne platform’s avionics, including Chaff and Flares Dispenser, Missile Warning System, Laser Warning System, Towed RF Decoy and Multi-Function Display. It is flight-line re-programmable. Using PC-based equipment and user-friendly human-machine interface, threats and jamming EW techniques may be easily updated.
*RWJS Functioning*
Typically RWJS functions as follows:



The RF signals received via the receiving Antennas are amplified by Front-End Amplifiers and fed to the advanced Channelized Receiver in the Central Unit.
The Receiver measures all the RF signals parameters such as PRF, PRI, PW, direction etc., building pulse descriptors that are fed to the Central Processor.
The Central Processor extracts the threats according to priority and level of lethality and provides the situation awareness to the pilot via the Multi-Function display.
Upon detection of a lethal threat, the Central Processor activates the Jammer, selecting the appropriate EW technique for each threat. The jammer is capable of responding simultaneously to several threats by implementing Power Management techniques.

*EW Suite Development Progress*
The suite was test flown for the first time on Tejas PV1 on January 10, 2015 at HAL airport in Bengaluru. According to a DRDO press release "the equipment was noted to be detecting Radar signals operating in and around the flight path."

Over the coming few months, ADA and DARE will be scheduling further sorties to evaluate the system in various signal scenarios.

An EW system developed by DARE for MiG-29 UPG reportedly was rejected by the IAF due to performance shortfalls.

The suite was earlier tested on the ground using simulation. Airborne testing on PV-1 was initially expected to start in November 2013 or early December 2013.

In October 2013, Deccan Herald reported that DRDO has fitted the EW suite on LCA PV-1.

PV-1 had been on the ground since 2001-02, having flown 242 test flights till then. According to MoD's annual report for 2013-14, Ground Acceptance Test (GAT) has been completed.

IDP Sentinel members can remain updated on the Tejas project by visiting the link below.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## CONNAN

*Advanced jammers to help Tejas evade enemy radars*

*By: Sandip Dighe*

_*DRDO develops Electronic Warfare suit system to increase the combat aircraft's capability*_

The fighting capability of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has been given a significant boost with an advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) suit system. The new system will give pilots an additional capability of nullifying the effect of radars by appropriate jamming mechanism.

The suit has been developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory specialising in avionics and electronic warfare systems for combat aircraft.

DRDO scientists are confident of this system adding an important capability to the LCA and help the Indian Air Force (IAF) with its operation preparedness. Tejas's first flight sortie with the EW equipment operational took place on Saturday. "The equipment was noted to be detecting radar signals operating in and around the flight path," a DRDO official told Mirror.

An official from IAF, who did not wish to divulge his identity, told Mirror, "We cannot carry out operations if the enemy detects our aircraft through the radar. Appropriate systems to jam the enemy's radar would be of a great help for the pilot. This will be a positive development for the IAF."

Ravi Kumar Gupta, scientist and director of public interface at the DRDO headquarters in Delhi, said, "The existing EW systems fitted on various combat aircraft are basic EW equipment known as Radar Warner Receiver (RWR) to provide warning to the aircraft pilot in case of detection of a radar threat. By using the new technology, the pilot will get exact information about the enemy's radar capability. It will also give the pilot the capability to nullify the effect of radar threats by jamming it appropriately."

Upon being asked whether DRDO is planning to develop advanced EW system for Indian fighter aircraft like MIG-29, Sukhoi-30 Mk1 and Mirage-2000, Gupta said, "The DRDO will very soon come up with systems which can be used in MIG aircraft too."

Advanced jammers to help Tejas evade enemy radars - Pune Mirror

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## sudhir007



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## Water Car Engineer

Well, we'll hopely see NLCA arrestor hook test in 8 or so months, here's some relevant images.





*

Arrestor Hook 1:4 model*







*arrestor hook test rig*














*Single seat NLCA with it's hook

*

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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> Well, we'll hopely see NLCA arrestor hook test in 8 or so months



Why do you think so? The NP 2 roll out (if not further delayed) should be this month and it should be disappointing if it doesn't come with the hook already. So why wait so long for arrested landings?

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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> Why do you think so? The NP 2 roll out (if not further delayed) should be this month and it should be disappointing if it doesn't come with the hook already. So why wait so long for arrested landings?



It said it in a recent article that the test will be done 6-8 months time.


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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> It said it in a recent article that the test will be done 6-8 months time.



Ok, man that's slow.


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## rockstarIN

Flash News..

LCA SP-1 will be handed over to IAF on 17th January 2015.

(Tarmak 007)

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## vsdave2302

Krate M said:


> @Oscar life cycle costs can only be calculated for a fighter plane which has completed a certain number of years in service as it requires a calculations of which spare parts are needed more and which are needed less.


 

No,

Life cycle cost is cost of acquisition, Present valu of operating, Maintenence, upgradation and any other expense related to fighter operation till it is retired. Salvage value if any should be deducted from the cost.


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## sancho

> *First Light Combat Aircraft likely to be handed over to IAF tomorrow *
> 
> Thirty-two years after the project was sanctioned, the first of the indigenously-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is finally expected to be handed over to the IAF tomorrow.
> 
> This will be the start of a process of induction of the fighters being built at home under a project which has already estimated to have cost the exchequer over Rs 17,000 crore.
> 
> The first LCA is being handed over to the IAF after Initial Operational Clearance-II, which signifies that Tejas
> is airworthy in different conditions, sources said...



First Light Combat Aircraft likely to be handed over to IAF tomorrow - The Economic Times

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## CONNAN

IOC-II achieved ;First LCA to be handed over to IAF tomorrow

NEW DELHI: Thirty-two years after the project was sanctioned, the first of the indigenously-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is finally expected to be handed over to the IAF tomorrow. 

This will be the start of a process of induction of the fighters being built at home under a project which has already estimated to have cost the exchequer over Rs 17,000 crore. 

The first LCA is being handed over to the IAF after Initial Operational Clearance-II, which signifies that Tejas is airworthy in different conditions, sources said. 

The IOC-I was granted to the aircraft, being built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), in January 2011. 

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected by the year-end. 
"The aircraft is ready and we are trying to hand it over to the IAF tomorrow," the sources said. 

If all goes well (?



), Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who is visiting the HAL headquarters tomorrow, will hand over the aircraft to the IAF chief Air Marshal Arup Raha. 
The first IOC was granted after the aircraft successfully completed its maiden flight on September 30 last year. 

The sources said 20 aircraft will be built by 2017-2018, to make the first squadron of the aircraft. 
The LCA programme was initiated in 1983 to replace the ageing MiG-21s in IAF's combat fleet but has missed several deadlines due to several reasons. 

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's LCA Project Group has has been upgraded to a full-fledged division to look after production in a systematic way with more investments. 

HAL has carried out around thousands of sorties of LCA and conducted outstation flight trials at Leh, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttaralai Gwalior, Pathankot and Goa for cold weather, armament and weapon deliveries, MultiMode Radar (MMR), Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), hot weather and missile firing flight trials, its officials have said. 

Tejas has also successfully demonstrated weapon delivery capability during weapon trials at Jamnagar and Jaisalmer, HAL officials said.

Bharat Rakshak • View topic - LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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## definitelynotIndian

so IAF got the plane or not?


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## sancho

> ... *Empowered Committee on LCA meeting *
> 
> OneIndia has learnt that Parrikar, who is still getting a grip of various projects under his command, will chair a meeting of Empowered Committee that looks into the progress of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas...
> 
> ...At ADA, Parrikar is expected to be given a complete presentation on LCA project. "*The Empowered Committee on LCA is normally chaired by the Indian Air Force Chief and this time it will be the minister. The minister will take a look at the achievements so far. He would also want to know the pending points of FOC (Final Operational Clearance)*," the official said. The Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha will also be present during the review. Parrikar had last month stated that the Tejas will be given the FOC at the end of 2015 and is expected to share his ideas to fasten the project. He is said to have studied the problems that contributed to the delay and *is expected to seek some explanations from the ADA-HAL combo*...
> 
> ...A low-key Tejas handing over event likely HAL is leaving no stone unturned to make the minister's visit a memorable one. Parrikar will be shown HAL's helicopter manufacturing capabilities.
> "He will also be visiting the LCA series production (SP) manufacturing facilities being set up by HAL. The first SP-1 Tejas is likely to be handed over to IAF on the occasion," an HAL official said.
> *However, an IAF official confirmed to OneIndia that the handing over will be a symbolic affair *with the aircraft having completed only four flights so far. "It's so far flown by an ADA Test Pilot and there's more work left before it can be handed over," the official said.
> The handing over of SP-1 will set the induction process rolling for the IAF...



OneIndia Exclusive: Parrikar to review DRDO, HAL projects in Bengaluru - Oneindia


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## Krate M

@sancho I thought that the test pilots were from NFTC not ADA. NFTC is a part of IAF is it not?


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> @sancho I thought that the test pilots were from NFTC not ADA. NFTC is a part of IAF is it not?



I guess he meant active IAF pilots, if I'm not wrong NFTC is part of ADA or HAL.


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## satishkumarcsc

THe NFTC is a part pf ADA.

https://www.ada.gov.in/advt-083.pdf


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## halfilhal

*Arrestor Hook 1:4 model*







Ye kya baba adam ke jamaane ki machinery hein....


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## Krate M

@sancho my mistake. NFTC is part of ADA. But project director is from IAF, so are pilots.

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## Quick MIK



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## rockstarIN

Krate M said:


> @sancho my mistake. NFTC is part of ADA. But project director is from IAF, so are pilots.


But the test pilots are cell experienced from iaf.


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## Krate M

rockstarIN said:


> But the test pilots are cell experienced from iaf.


You mean *well* experienced right? :p
Yes but on deputation, now it will be flown by IAF pilots in squadron service.


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## thesolar65

So the threads for MK-I is over. There is noting to discuss further. Must rename the threads as HAL Tejas MK-II.

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## jarves

thesolar65 said:


> So the threads for MK-I is over. There is noting to discuss further. Must rename the threads as HAL Tejas MK-II.


Tejas has still not got FOC.We wil have to wait one more year if DRDO does not **** uup again

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## satishkumarcsc

Krate M said:


> You mean *well* experienced right? :p
> Yes but on deputation, now it will be flown by IAF pilots in squadron service.


The post that i posted is an ad from ADA for test pilots. You can see the requirements and salary structure there.


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## sancho

jarves said:


> Tejas has still not got FOC.We wil have to wait one more year if DRDO does not **** uup again



Still waiting for official statements on how far the flight performance was improved, we only hear about the nose, refuelling probe and BVR missiles before FOC, but what happened to AoA and G-Limits that were below requirements?

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## sancho

Will reply here, since that are general LCA issues...



kaku1 said:


> I was talking about the airframe's life, which is based on western standards.



I see, well that's a similar case as with taking western standards as the benchmark for engine developments. In this case it seems to have worked out though and we gained credible know how in that field.



kaku1 said:


> BTW, what the hell problem with folded wings? Delta design and high use of composite?
> Even, DRDO even not trying in that.



Folding wings would force them to re-design the wings again and that would delay the MK2 development even more. The whole N-LCA issue has caused LCA as a project more trouble than good anyway.[/QUOTE]


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## Krate M

satishkumarcsc said:


> The post that i posted is an ad from ADA for test pilots. You can see the requirements and salary structure there.


Sorry did not see the post link, can't open PDF format on my device. My comment was based on past articles. Looks like that too has changed for good.


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## sancho

> *Parrikar gets tech taste; IAF gets first Tejas*
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar got a taste of the technologies being trumpeted by DRDO, HAL, BEML and BEL during a 13-hour supersonic visit to Bengaluru on Saturday...
> 
> ...*HAL must think out-of-the-box *
> 
> While patting HAL for giving thrust to the Tejas project in the last couple of years, Parrikar reminded the DPSU to be smart in their thinking process. "I want HAL to think out-of-the-box so as to meet the time-line challenges. HAL must also apply the right management tools," the minister said. Parrikar wanted HAL to give thrust in the areas of research and technology by exploiting the existing knowledge base. "One does not achieve everything over-night. But by modifying our work culture and by adopting better technology and tools we can achieve the results better," he said.
> 
> *Reluctant IAF finally toes the line *
> 
> Interestingly, a top brass of Ministry of Defence (MoD), who was present during the event, told OneIndia that there were last-minute hand-holding between IAF and HAL ahead of the handing over ceremony. "The IAF wasn't keen to accept just one Tejas and was insisting that they be given a minimum of four aircraft to justify the Squadron formation. In the interest of HAL and by respecting Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Make in India vision, the IAF finally agreed to accept SP-1," the top official told OneIndia late on Saturday night. HAL quoted the IAF Chief in a release as saying: "We are happy to receive the documents of the first series production of LCA."
> 
> *Tyagi's dream finally takes wing*
> 
> For HAL Chairman Dr R K Tyagi, the dream of handing over SP-1 during his tenure was fulfilled on Saturday. Tyagi, who is set to retire on January 31, has been very vociferous in expressing the need to scale up the production numbers of Tejas. Speaking to OneIndia Dr Tyagi termed the event as ‘historic' and ‘a red-letter day' for HAL. "There have been delays, but I am a satisfied man today for having delivered a world-class fighter jet to the IAF. I am delighted that a major portion of Tejas (60 per cent) is made in India and as we move ahead, we will increase the indigenous content," Dr Tyagi said. He said there are around 82 Indian vendors who have been actively participated in the Tejas programme. "Out of the 338 LRUs, more than 200 have been produced in India. We will deliver SP2 in March and another six during the next financial year (2015-16). Subsequently we are capable of scaling up the numbers to eight and more," Dr Tyagi said...



Read more at: Parrikar gets tech taste; IAF gets first Tejas - Oneindia

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Still waiting for official statements on how far the flight performance was improved, we only hear about the nose, refuelling probe and BVR missiles before FOC, but what happened to AoA and G-Limits that were below requirements?



I guess all those requirements were fulfilled since the IAF will not accept a half baked air craft


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> I guess all those requirements were fulfilled since the IAF will not accept a half baked air craft



Check the article above, it's just a symbolic move, most likely pushed by the government, but most of the requirements still seems to be not delivered. The gun, BVR missiles and the flight performance issues were meant to be fixed before induction, the new nose, IFR probe from FOC onwards. Looks more like IAF is forced to induct it, while the "hope" is, that the rest can be done till FOC by the end of the year.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Check the article above, it's just a symbolic move, most likely pushed by the government, but most of the requirements still seems to be not delivered. The gun, BVR missiles and the flight performance issues were meant to be fixed before induction, the new nose, IFR probe from FOC onwards. Looks more like IAF is forced to induct it, while the "hope" is, that the rest can be done till FOC by the end of the year.



Well I am all for it,in my view they should induct it & then slowly solve all the problems out.

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## indiatester

sancho said:


> Check the article above, it's just a symbolic move, most likely pushed by the government, but most of the requirements still seems to be not delivered. The gun, BVR missiles and the flight performance issues were meant to be fixed before induction, the new nose, IFR probe from FOC onwards. *Looks more like IAF is forced to induct it*, while the "hope" is, that the rest can be done till FOC by the end of the year.



IAF should have been forced a while back. It is better late than never to force them to look internally for their requirements. They should have been a partner in ensuring Tejas fits their requirements rather than a critic passing verdict after performance.


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Well I am all for it,in my view they should induct it & then slowly solve all the problems out.



What's the point having 20 x interceptors inducted, when they can't intercept?  I find it rather amazing how long it needs to integrate the gun, expand the flight performance and at least integrate and flight test BVR missiles. IOC2 was in Dec 2013, what did they do last year?



indiatester said:


> IAF should have been forced a while back. It is better late than never to force them to look internally for their requirements. *They should have been a partner in ensuring Tejas fits their requirements rather than a critic passing verdict after performance.*



They should had been more involved in the project true, but the requirements are known for a long time now and not much seems to have changed / improved and that's on the developer of the product, not on the customer.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> What's the point having 20 x interceptors inducted, when they can't intercept?  I find it rather amazing how long it needs to integrate the gun, expand the flight performance and at least integrate and flight test BVR missiles. IOC2 was in Dec 2013, what did they do last year?
> 
> 
> 
> They should had been more involved in the project true, but the requirements are known for a long time now and not much seems to have changed / improved and that's on the developer of the product, not on the customer.



Me too but probably if the IAF & HAL work closely they will achieve it faster


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Me too but probably if the IAF & HAL work closely they will achieve it faster



IAF can't do much, they are dependent on what DRDO and co deliver. So without the improvements, they will get a good strike fighter, but would still need the Bisons to protect them or to take over A2A roles.

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## indiatester

sancho said:


> They should had been more involved in the project true, but the requirements are known for a long time now and not much seems to have changed / improved *and that's on the developer of the product, not on the customer*.



Who suffered because of the delay?
Ultimately, they must be looking at the larger interest and involved themselves. Anyway this line of argument has been beaten to death by both the sides, so no point in discussing it again.
Hope both sides learn and improve.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> IAF can't do much, they are dependent on what DRDO and co deliver. So without the improvements, they will get a good strike fighter, but would still need the Bisons to protect them or to take over A2A roles.



Well lets hope the govt Reforms the DRDO ASAP so there can be greater accountability & these things like(How the hell in 3 decades you were not able to strap a simple gun on the fighter) can be avoided


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> Who suffered because of the delay?



IAF of course, but they will continue to keep suffering as long as LCA can't replace the Mig 21 as an interceptor. So inducting a squadron is just a symbolic move and a plus on paper wrt to the squad number, but doesn't change the operational facts. To change that, it needs at least the improved flight performance and the gun, to take over even air policing roles of the civil air space and southern areas.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> IAF of course, but they will continue to keep suffering as long as LCA can't replace the Mig 21 as an interceptor. So inducting a squadron is just a symbolic move and a plus on paper wrt to the squad number, but doesn't change the operational facts. To change that, it needs at least the improved flight performance and the gun, to take over even air policing roles of the civil air space and southern areas.


The next 20 in foc configuration will do the interception meanwhile first 20 can be useful in cas roles


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## Water Car Engineer

BENGALURU: As Team Tejas burns the midnight oil to integrate new weapon systems and upgrade other capabilities on the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas as mandated by the Indian Air Force (IAF), bad weather has taken away many flying hours, critical for testing such systems before certification.

From January 4, 2001, when Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal flew the first LCA prototype marking the maiden flight of the fighter jet to January 17, 2015, the day the first aircraft was handed over to the IAF, 2,850 trial flights of LCA have taken place. 

If the first flight tested basic airworthiness, the subsequent ones have had greater challenges. Notwithstanding the nature of tests each of these flights carry out, ranging from weapon delivery to navigation, trial flights are crucial, senior IAF officials say. 

However, Team Tejas was forced to abandon 80 scheduled flights last year, some attempting to even test the Russian Gun integrated with an LCA prototype. IAF has been pressurizing Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which has designed LCA to have this feature on the plane. 

ADA chief PS Subramanya told TOI: "Not everything is under our control. Last monsoon saw 80 of our trial flights get cancelled, which means that we have to fly them this year to check the efficiency of the systems and the performance."



Without these test flights, ADA cannot guarantee IAF of the performance, nor get certification. In 2014, a total of 350 test flights took place, about 150 less than 2013, which saw 500 flights. "...A few flights also had to be postponed because of technical reasons," Subramanya said. 

*The team, which is currently working on integrating mid-air refuelling capabilities on Tejas is looking at achieving more than 500 flights this year, which will prove crucial with a final operational clearance for LCA expected next year. *

A total of 15 LCAs lie in the hangers of HAL, including the seven Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft, two Technology Demonstrators, three Fighter Prototypes, two Trainer Prototypes and one Naval Prototype. The LCA SP-1, which was handed over to IAF on Saturday is the 16th.

Weather hits Tejas upgrades - The Times of India

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## ptltejas

TOP 25 things u need to know about Tejas ................

1) Tejas is a relaxed static stability design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease pilot burden handling.

2) DRDO is developing four versions of the LCA; namely LCA Air Force, LCA Air Force Trainer, LCA Navy and LCA Navy Trainer.

3) Tejas has successfully completed more than 2,600 flights and has participated in Hot Weather, Cold Weather, Iron Fist and Weapon Trials comprising of Bomb releases both in Computer Calculated Release Point (CCRP - Uses GPS for target acquisition and termination) and Continuous Computed Impact Point (CCIP - Uses Radar for target termination) modes.

4) In December 2014 LCA (Navy) Prototype 1 (NP1), designed to operate from the decks of air-craft carriers, successfully conducted a take off procedure from the Ski-Jump facility of Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) at INS Hansa in Goa.

5) The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites (C-FC), and titanium-alloy steels.

6) The digital Fly-by-Wire (FBW) system of the Tejas employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) made by Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) comprising four computing channels, each with its own independent power supply and all housed in a single LRU.

7) Tejas can fly at a speed of more than 1,350 km per hour and can be compared to some of the world's best fighter aircraft -- the Mirage 2000, F-16 and Gripen fighter jets.

8) The Tejas is equipped with both GPS and a ring laser gyro based inertial navigation system; for flying in poor conditions, an Instrument Landing System (ILS) and a ground proximity warning system based on the Terrain Referenced Navigation (TRN) system is also employed.

9) It is equipped with an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode planar array fire-control radar, it is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes.

10) The ADA Systems Directorate's Integrated Digital Avionics Suite (IDAS) integrates the flight controls, environmental controls, aircraft utilities systems management, stores management system (SMS), etc. on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit, high-throughput mission computer.

11) The LCA also has secure and state-of-the-art advanced electronic warfare suite (EW suite), known as Mayavi, which includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and a Laser warning receiver (LWR) system, Infrared & Ultraviolet Missile warning sensors, self-protection jammer, chaff, jaff and flares dispenser, an electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite and a towed radar decoy (TRD).

12) R73E missile successful launching in MMR and Helmet Mounted Display Guided Modes.

13) The Tejas Mark 2 will feature a more powerful engine the General Electric F414-GE-INS6 Turbofan which develops 98 kN of thrust, the engine will also have refined aerodynamics.

14) Stick Bombing, separation trials of emergency jettison of multiple stores and Drop Tanks were conducted at various locations across India.

15) Other notable milestones achieved are Spool Down Engine relight, Envelope expansion up to 24 degrees Angle of Attack, operational readiness platform scramble, Laser guided missions with Litening POD, Fuel System, Brake Management System and General Systems performance.

16) Multi-role capability demonstration by simultaneous release of Laser Guided Bombs, Chaff & Flare dispensation and firing of R73E missile within a span of 100 secs. Other important achievements are night flying and wake penetration.

17) Advanced Composites development of engine parts, Bypass Duct, Nozzle Flap, Bullet Nose Cone, curing achieved in both autoclave and press processes, indigenous resin development, developed glass transition temperature in excess of 300ºc.

18) Indigenous aircraft paint system, characterization to DEF STAN 80-216, BS 2x 33 & 34 and application process fine tuned to Tejas. Indigenously developed single trolley multiple operations, shorter flight readiness cycle time, loading trolleys for Drop Tanks, Weapons, Digital Flight Control Computer, Battery, Jet Fuel Starter, Landing Gears etc.

19) The Tejas has a night vision goggles (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit" that is dominated by an CSIR-CSIO domestically developed head-up display (HUD).

20) Realization of Product Life Cycle Management (PLM) - Implementation for all projects, complete product data management across work centers, pipelines and electrical looms data management, synchronization of data, query workflows from design through manufacturing, digital manufacturing and ERP interface, online design query management for faster disposition, real time status dash boards for effective tracking.

21) Production Optimization - Introduction of laser tracker, high speed machining, automated drilling and riveting technologies, application of Design for Manufacture and Assembly (DFMA) concepts, production standard drawings, build quality improvement and product cycle time reduction.

22) Strength Test of Leading Edge Vortex Controller (LEVCON) for LCA Navy, successful flight trials with indigenously designed and qualified composite drop tanks, flight flutter tests for operational clean and heavy stores flight envelope expansion.

23) Water Tightness Tests, Lightning Test Facility and configured and commissioned Automatic Cable Harness Tester.

24) Production standard Digital Mock up (DMu) including system pipelines and electrical looms, capabilities like Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing (GD&T), analysis and assembly sequencing introduced.

25) Qualification of indigenous autoclave consumables like pressure sensitive tapes, vacuum bag sealants and release films for Carbon/Epoxy system.

‪#‎Tiwari_Sumit‬

TOP 25 things u need to know about Tejas... - Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS. | Facebook

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> The next 20 in foc configuration will do the interception *meanwhile first 20 can be useful in cas roles*



Which is a requirement the IAF currently don't have, since it's not in the need of CAS fighters, so from IAF's perspective it's logical that they demand the fighter to provide what they need, before they want to order and induct it in larger numbers.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Which is a requirement the IAF currently don't have, since it's not in the need of CAS fighters, so from IAF's perspective it's logical that they demand the fighter to provide what they need, before they want to order and induct it in larger numbers.






sancho said:


> Which is a requirement the IAF currently don't have, since it's not in the need of CAS fighters, so from IAF's perspective it's logical that they demand the fighter to provide what they need, before they want to order and induct it in larger numbers.


The first 20 'can be' brought up to FOC standard, mostly if not fully.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> The first 20 'can be' brought up to FOC standard, mostly if not fully.


Of course, but when? Beyond 2018 after delivery? And now consider how much trouble IAF would had gone to, if they had started induction earlier or ordered more MK1s as many people wanted, with no operational benefit, just to point on paperspecs that we have more squads operational. 
I just don't get the logic behind ADA's / DRDO's way of including capabilities throughout the whole project. HMS and LDP since years, while basics like a gun a proper radar or BVR missiles still lack so much behind schedule. 
They had developed A2A modes, so why not integrate R77s for basic testing? The gun is not a new procurement either, what stopped them so long from integrating and testing it?

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## sancho

Air & Cosmos on LCA, google translated



> *The Indian Air Force receives first series of Tejas*
> 
> At Last! The Indian Air Force has taken delivery of 15 January 2015, the first single-engine fighter LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Tejas series. The device was produced locally by HAL (Hindustant Aeronuatics). Launched in the 1980s, the Tejas flew for the first time in 2001. Since the program has accumulated many delays.
> 
> The first fighter delivered to the Indian Army, the LCA-SP1 was released in September 2014. Factory He subsequently evaluated by the services of the Department of Indian defense. He received the qualification "Initial Operational Clearance II" and should be declared fully operational by the end of 2015...
> 
> ...*The difficulties of this project wanted "most indian possible," illustrate those of the country to conduct the moment such programs without foreign aid. If the DRDO and HAL have managed to limit the external supply some aircraft systems, they didn't had to resolve to adopt a US-IN20 engine 404 GE, General Electric (F414-INS6 for the Mark II). A place devoted to the origin of the Indian GTX-35VS Kaveri engine, developed by one of the laboratories of DRDO. It also knows heavy delays.*



L'armée de l'Air indienne réceptionne un premier Tejas de série - Air et Cosmos


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Possible mission configs of the upgraded Mirage 2000 and LCA MK1 in IAF
> 
> View attachment 181707
> View attachment 181708


hi @sancho at the time we use around 1000lb fuel in 6-7 pylon is it possible to use any missile in this way


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> hi @sancho at the time we use around 1000lb fuel in 6-7 pylon is it possible to use any missile in this way



Depends on the available space, but more important is, that those are SR missiles on rail launchers and LCA already has a dedicated station for SR missiles, so that is not the issue. Longer and bigger BVR missiles on the other side might not fit, especially on the inner side of that station, since that side is restricted by the gear bay as well.


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Depends on the available space, but more important is, that those are SR missiles on rail launchers and LCA already has a dedicated station for SR missiles, so that is not the issue. Longer and bigger BVR missiles on the other side might not fit, especially on the inner side of that station, since that side is restricted by the gear bay as well.


why not use Single BVR or if we used SR missile it mean we can able to fire more missile on target coze we have total 8 heard point and most of time 2-3 will use fuel and 1 for targeting pods, so it left only 4.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> why not use Single BVR or if we used SR missile it mean we can able to fire more missile on target coze we have total 8 heard point and most of time 2-3 will use fuel and 1 for targeting pods, so it left only 4.



As said, depends on the available space if a BVR missile fits, not to mention that it must be rail launchable and not dropped, since the fuel tank blocks the way. And having more SR missiles, does not equal the lack of BVR missiles in modern warfare, you still need dedicated escorts with BVR missiles for protection.
Also keep in mind that all this adds to drag, which already seems to be an issue, the most likely choice to increase weapon load capability, would be increased internal fuel to carry less fuel tanks, but so far we don't know how much more fuel the MK2 will carry. If you can carry a single 725l centerline fuel tank + 1675l increased internal fuel, you can replace the 2 x 1200l wing tanks and use these hardpoints for weapons instead, with even less drag.


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## greatone

Half-strength squadrons | Business Standard Editorials


On Saturday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) the first Tejas Mark I fighter built on its new production line in Bengaluru. Fifteen prototypes earlier produced were each hand-built to different specifications as the Tejas evolved. Now, however, HAL's production line will build to a controlled standard using modern manufacturing methods. *The first Tejas fighter had flown in September, but the IAF had refused to accept it until HAL could hand over eight fighters together, half the complement of the first Tejas squadron. Eventually, the defence ministry ordered the IAF to accept each fighter as it was built, like every air force does.*

*This illustrates the continuing problems with the Tejas, and why it has taken so long to enter service. *With diverse organisations contributing to its development since 1983 - including HAL and the National Aerospace Laboratories - the programme has been overseen by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), established by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).* From the start, the IAF had convinced itself that building a modern fighter was an extravagant aim. Unlike the navy, which took ownership and control of warship-building programmes, an uninterested IAF highlighted flaws and demanded the purchase of expensive fighters from the international market - currently, the Rafale.*

Every country that builds contemporary fighters has been through a tortuous learning process - a century for the United States, Germany, Italy, Britain, France and Russia. India has leapfrogged in technology by building what the IAF accepts is a fighter far better than the light MiGs it was intended to replace. The IAF's strength is down to 35 squadrons (each with 16 operational fighters), and with 10 more MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons retiring by 2018. But, even so, the IAF has made its preference for foreign fighters like the Rafale over the Tejas clear.

The Tejas has not achieved final operational clearance. Some capabilities remain to be validated before it can be fielded in combat. On the other hand, the test programme has, however, completed 2,800 flights, with only a few hundred more required. The problem is the delays. HAL needs to build the Tejas faster, so that 10 squadrons can fill the gap created by the retiring MiGs. But just two Tejas fighters will be built this year; another six in 2015-16; eight more the year after that; and only in 2017-18 would HAL hit a production rate of 16 planes a year. Clearly, this is too slow. If the Tejas is to help set up a domestic high-tech sector, then the defence ministry needs to be swifter, and HAL needs to indigenise further, developing Indian small-scale vendors to build systems and components currently being imported.

Shame on IAF if this is true.
I hope they fire the guy responsible for this.


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## sancho

greatone said:


> *The first Tejas fighter had flown in September, but the IAF had refused to accept it until HAL could hand over eight fighters together, half the complement of the first Tejas squadron. Eventually, the defence ministry ordered the IAF to accept each fighter as it was built, like every air force does.*



What a load of BS. It was always planned to induct them when 8 fighters will be available, 2 of them should had been produced last year, 6 this year, but most importantly after achieving FOC which was planned for last december. So why should IAF induct just a single fighter last year, that doesn't even fulfil the basic requirements for the operational service?


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## greatone

sancho said:


> What a load of BS. It was always planned to induct them when 8 fighters will be available, 2 of them should had been produced last year, 6 this year, but most importantly after achieving FOC which was planned for last december. So why should IAF induct just a single fighter last year, that doesn't even fulfil the basic requirements for the operational service?



Yes MoD is stupid to force IAF to induct each fighter as it is built.
Other air forces are stupid too since they induct each fighter as it is built.
And of course we all know by now how stupid DRDO is.
Since you have exposed DRDO's pride and ego after giving ample proofs.


You know the meaning of the word induction right ?
IAF agreed to induct Tejas under pressure but is still trying to sabotage the project at every step.
Whats wrong with IAF following induction protocol of all other air forces
Of course the import lobby is giving bribes to corrupt IAF.
See I can make inferences too and pass my judgement on others.


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## Storm Force

Modi should cancel the rafale deal now....

Comit to tejas programme 

And tell iaf no new fighters from abroad until Fgfa


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## greatone

Storm Force said:


> Modi should cancel the rafale deal now....
> 
> Comit to tejas programme
> 
> And tell iaf no new fighters from abroad until Fgfa



Qouting a poster from bharat rakshak

_This is the same AF willing to accept a paper plane in a Rafale F3-R.

This is the same AF that took a huge risk with the MKI and accepted a lesser Su-27 squadron while waiting for the MKI.

Bailed one vendor, is bailing another and possibly re-bailing the first.

But cannot help a MIC from own nation._

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## skysthelimit

sancho said:


> What a load of BS. It was always planned to induct them when 8 fighters will be available, 2 of them should had been produced last year, 6 this year, but most importantly after achieving FOC which was planned for last december. So why should IAF induct just a single fighter last year, that doesn't even fulfil the basic requirements for the operational service?


Why? Why not start flying each LCA as they are delivered? Yes HAL is slower than the proverbial tortoise, but not sure why continuing to flying the Migs any longer is a better option than taking one LCA at a time.

Maybe because as each LCA takes to the sky, there will be one less reason to buy expensive foreign birds.


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## sancho

greatone said:


> You know the meaning of the word induction right ?



Yes, which doesn't mean taking any fighter that is produced! That's even the point, you produce more fighters to raise a squadron and IAF does the same with the MKI as well, just as all forces in the world do it and an unnamed author doesn't change that by talking such nonsense. More importantly though and what this BS article tries to hide, is the fact that achieving FOC was the base for induction, so how is IAF the problem and not the failure to achieve FOC?



skysthelimit said:


> but not sure why continuing to flying the Migs any longer is a better option than taking one LCA at a time.



Because LCA in this form is not able to replace a single A2A fighter, since it only can do strikes. Radar performance limited, BVR missiles and gun not integrated, flight profile expansion according to FOC requirements???
So even if you induct a full squadron of LCAs today, IAF would need to keep the Mig 21s in service to keep doing air policing duties for example. The minimum would be, the integration of the gun and reaching the AoA and G-limit requirements, to start using it in basic A2A roles. You can't induct a product, that is not capable enough to do what it was planned for, just for the sole reason that it is an indigenous product!


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## greatone

sancho said:


> Yes, which doesn't mean taking any fighter that is produced! That's even the point, you produce more fighters to raise a squadron and IAF does the same with the MKI as well, just as all forces in the world do it and an unnamed author doesn't change that by talking such nonsense. More importantly though and what this BS article tries to hide, is the fact that achieving FOC was the base for induction, so how is IAF the problem and not the failure to achieve FOC?
> 
> 
> 
> Because LCA in this form is not able to replace a single A2A fighter, since it only can do strikes. Radar performance limited, BVR missiles and gun not integrated, flight profile expansion according to FOC requirements???
> So even if you induct a full squadron of LCAs today, IAF would need to keep the Mig 21s in service to keep doing air policing duties for example. The minimum would be, the integration of the gun and reaching the AoA and G-limit requirements, to start using it in basic A2A roles. You can't induct a product, that is not capable enough to do what it was planned for, just for the sole reason that it is an indigenous product!



Was JF 17 equipped with all this before first squadrons were raised ?
What about Typhoon which you lobby for so hard ?Did it have A2G capability ?

Is the F 35 ready for combat ?Does it have gun integrated ?
If not then why has USAF raised this squadron and few others ?
58th Fighter Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These questions are rhetorical, real meat of my post is below.

You have deflected the topic from IAF's refusal to induct each plane as built to the capability of Tejas or lack thereof.
I am not surprised.You have a tendency for it.

For your information, IAF already *agreed* to induct first few squadrons for air policing and training the crews for maintenance under _danda_ of Mod.So all your arguments about lack of maturation of Tejas are moot in the context of this discussion.

*Here we are discussing why is IAF not taking each fighter as it is built like all other air forces of the world do ?When it has already agreed to induct the plane.
What we are not discussing is - Is Tejas ready for combat ?*

Atleast bother to understand the subject of discussion before quoting me.


Judging by your past track record, you will either deflect or backtrack your claims.
I am sure of this.

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## sancho

greatone said:


> Was JF 17 equipped with all this before first squadrons were raised ?
> What about Typhoon which you lobby for so hard ?Did it have A2G capability ?



You picked exactly the wrong examples. JF 17 was planned to replace A2G fighters first, the EF interceptors and was inducted with A2A capabilities. If LCA should replace Mig 21s, they have to have at least the mentioned minimum A2A capabilities, so it's pointless if it could replace Jags in strikes, when it can't replace the fighters it was meant to replace.




greatone said:


> You have deflected the topic from IAF's refusal *to induct each plane as built to the capability of Tejas or lack thereof*.



=>



greatone said:


> For your information, *IAF already agreed to induct first few squadrons for air policing*



You are proving yourself to be wrong and don't even realize it. 
And again, where is the refusal of IAF? The industry has not delivered the *planned* number of fighters for induction, nor the *planned* capability. So you can try as bad as you want, but the fact remains that the problem lies on the industrial side.


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## greatone

sancho said:


> You are proving yourself to be wrong and don't even realize it.
> And again, where is the refusal of IAF? The industry has not delivered the *planned* number of fighters for induction, nor the *planned* capability. So you can try as bad as you want, but the fact remains that the problem lies on the industrial side.





Listen I don't want to waste my time with you going around in circles.
You may have that luxury of time but I don't.

Lets agree to stick to just one point- Why is IAF not inducting each Tejas as it rolls down from final assembly line like other air forces ?
Forget about its capability since IAF has already agreed to induct it - rightly or wrongly, that is a topic for another day.
We are talking about mode of induction.
Why is IAF waiting for a batch of 8, why not take one at a time, like everyone else.

That is the only topic here.

Stick to this otherwise please don't bother quoting me.


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## sancho

greatone said:


> Lets agree to stick to just one point- Why is IAF not inducting each Tejas as it rolls down from final assembly line like other air forces ?



Hehe can't counter facts right? 
Again, that's not the case witin IAF as shown with the MKI example, nor is it the case in other air forces. You base that only on the BS statement of the author! 

Simple example to understand the reality:



> *2 Oct 2012*
> 
> Dassault and its industry partners on the Rafale combat aircraft have achieved a significant programme milestone with the delivery of the first production example to feature an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.



PICTURE: France accepts first AESA-equipped Rafale - 10/2/2012 - Flight Global



> *20 Jun 2013*
> 
> With a first sensor already in the advanced stages of test and evaluation at its air force's Mont-de-Marsan air base, an operational French squadron will within the next few weeks receive its first Dassault Rafale equipped with a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> "*The first aircraft equipped with the new antenna will be delivered to the forces in late June or early July*,"



PARIS: First AESA-equipped Rafale heads for squadron service - 6/20/2013 - Flight Global

So 8 to 9 months between production of the fighter and actual induction into squadron service!

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## greatone

sancho said:


> Hehe can't counter facts right?
> Again, that's not the case witin IAF as shown with the MKI example, nor is it the case in other air forces. You base that only on the BS statement of the author!



Hehe 
Real mature.
That was another low for you.



sancho said:


> Simple example to understand the reality:
> 
> PICTURE: France accepts first AESA-equipped Rafale - 10/2/2012 - Flight Global
> 
> PARIS: First AESA-equipped Rafale heads for squadron service - 6/20/2013 - Flight Global
> 
> So 8 to 9 months between* production of the fighter and actual induction into squadron service*!




A new radar was inducted, not a new fighter jet.
A radar is not a fighter jet :|

Induction of radar on platform you already operate = Induction of a new platform ?
Huh ?
Mental gymnastics!!!

Do I see a backtrack coming ? or another deflection ?
Because I know internet dudes have an inexplicable urge to have the last word everytime.


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## sancho

greatone said:


> A radar, not a fighter.
> A radar is not a fighter :|
> 
> Induction of radar on platform you already operate = Induction of a platform ?
> Huh ?
> Mental gymnastics!!
> 
> Do I see a backtrack coming ? or is it another deflection ?



LOL you are trying so hard and keep fooling yourself, another example? 

No problem:



> Deliveries to the RAF started in 2003 to 17(R) Sqn who were based at BAE Systems Warton Aerodrome in Lancashire (alongside the factory where the aircraft were assembled) while detailed development and testing of the aircraft was carried out. Formal activation of the first Typhoon Squadron at RAF Coningsby occurred on the 1st Jul 2005.



RAF - Typhoon FGR4

So 2 years between production and squadron service!!! Wonder what you will blame now to find excuses.

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## greatone

sancho said:


> LOL you are trying so hard and keep fooling yourself, another example?
> 
> No problem:
> 
> 
> 
> RAF - Typhoon FGR4
> 
> So 2 years between production and squadron service!!! Wonder what you will blame now to find excuses.



Didn't I say we are discussing mode of induction like 2 posts ago ?Jeez man! get a grip.
You want me to spell it out for you ?

_
Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain formally agreed to start development of the aircraft in 1988 with contracts for a first batch of 148 aircraft – of which 53 were for the RAF – signed ten years later. *Deliveries to the RAF started in 2003 to 17(R) Sqn who were based at BAE Systems Warton Aerodrome in Lancashire* (alongside the factory where the aircraft were assembled) while detailed development and testing of the aircraft was carried out. Formal *activation of the first Typhoon Squadron at RAF Coningsby occurred on the 1st Jul 2005*. The aircraft took over responsibility for UK QRA on 29 Jun 2007 and was formally *declared as an advanced Air Defence platform on 1 Jan 2008*._


The question is IAF is not taking delivery.
Capability development came much later for Typhoon, RAF accepted it much before that.

Thanks for validating my point.

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## Black Widow

greatone said:


> *The first Tejas fighter had flown in September, but the IAF had refused to accept it until HAL could hand over eight fighters together, half the complement of the first Tejas squadron. Eventually, the defence ministry ordered the IAF to accept each fighter as it was built, like every air force does.*




See these Dollar loving bastards are still sabotaging Indian product , The defence Minister put Rod in there a$$ and give a better spin.. 

Or better is fire all IAF officers (Above Wing cmdr level) without any retirement benefit. And put air force under Naval Aviation and Army Aviation corps...

These corrupt officers are mocking our nation interests.. |


Shame on these shameless creatures...

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> What a load of BS. It was always planned to induct them when 8 fighters will be available, 2 of them should had been produced last year, 6 this year, but most importantly after achieving FOC which was planned for last december. So why should IAF induct just a single fighter last year, that doesn't even fulfil the basic requirements for the operational service?



I will not put all the blame at HAL as the IAF also needs to support Aircraft development so that domestic industry can mature

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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> I will not put all the blame at HAL as the IAF also needs to support Aircraft development so that domestic industry can mature



DRDO => developer => must be blamed for Kaveri and radar development failures as well as FOC delays now!

HAL => manufacturer => must be blamed for not being able to deliver the promised number of LCA SP's in 2014!

IAF => customer => can't be blamed for failures and mistakes of the earlier two, as well for sticking to agreed plans and requirements, which always was to raise the first squad only with the production of this year. Once because the SP1 and 2 were not based on IOC2 standards and more importantly, because any Air Force as shown, uses the first lot of fighters (especially of new production standards) for final test and evaluation before inducting them into operational service.



> *Poor work culture behind Tejas delay*
> 
> ...Though there will be progressive indigenisation of many parts and systems, the engine, the most important part of the aircraft, will continue to be imported. *This is because the indigenously designed Kaveri engine was a failure*.
> 
> *The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the entire defence production industry has performed much below par and has failed to meet the country’s expectations*...
> 
> ...*Poor work culture in the DRDO and the state-owned defence industry could have been a major factor, and the lesson from Tejas is that this culture has to change*. Tejas is expected to replace the old MiG-21 aircraft, and hopefully there will not be more unscheduled delays.



Poor work culture behind Tejas delay

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## indiatester

sancho said:


> DRDO => developer => must be blamed for Kaveri and radar development failures as well as FOC delays now!
> 
> HAL => manufacturer => must be blamed for not being able to deliver the promised number of LCA SP's in 2014!
> 
> *IAF => customer => can't be blamed for failures and mistakes of the earlier two, as well for sticking to agreed plans and requirements, which always was to raise the first squad only with the production of this year. Once because the SP1 and 2 were not based on IOC2 standards and more importantly, because any Air Force as shown, uses the first lot of fighters (especially of new production standards) for final test and evaluation before inducting them into operational service.*
> 
> 
> 
> Poor work culture behind Tejas delay



IAF is not a customer but is responsible for the air security of India. It must hence partner to ensure it has a capable fighter that can be counted upon in times of need. It can't have this standoff attitude and blame DRDO and HAL. They must do all it takes to ensure that.

I am yet to see what IAF has done to ensure success of Tejas.

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## Etilla

indiatester said:


> IAF is not a customer but is responsible for the air security of India. It must hence partner to ensure it has a capable fighter that can be counted upon in times of need. It can't have this standoff attitude and blame DRDO and HAL. They must do all it takes to ensure that.
> 
> I am yet to see what IAF has done to ensure success of Tejas.



IAF has provided countless test pilots at great risk to HAL. 

Many test pilots have dies flying the HAL junks.

IAF has ordered 40 Tejas 10 years ago and has not filed any lawsuit for damages in late delivery.

IAF is the victim of corrupt and defunct nature of HAL/ADA/DRDO

IAF is not even permitted to send observers to HAL but has to send its pilots to what is certainly a fiery death


----------



## indiatester

Etilla said:


> IAF has provided countless test pilots at great risk to HAL.


Does not count as contribution. You will be able to recruit Test Pilots out of IAF too.



Etilla said:


> Many test pilots have dies flying the HAL junks.


Testing involves some risks, so there have been some accidents. But I hear of far more number of incidents with IAF.



Etilla said:


> IAF has ordered 40 Tejas 10 years ago and has not filed any lawsuit for damages in late delivery.
> 
> IAF is the victim of corrupt and defunct nature of HAL/ADA/DRDO
> 
> IAF is not even permitted to send observers to HAL but has to send its pilots to what is certainly a fiery death



This is Where IAF should have taken them to task and pushed for more involvement. The seemed just happy seeing HAL/ADA making bad decisions and progress.

IAF should have not looked at this aircraft as a toy/vegetable they can buy in the market, but as a house they are going to live in. It is no good to just blame the architect + contractor when you have not participated whole heatedly.


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## Etilla

indiatester said:


> Does not count as contribution. You will be able to recruit Test Pilots out of IAF too.
> 
> 
> Testing involves some risks, so there have been some accidents. But I hear of far more number of incidents with IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> This is Where IAF should have taken them to task and pushed for more involvement. The seemed just happy seeing HAL/ADA making bad decisions and progress.
> 
> IAF should have not looked at this aircraft as a toy/vegetable they can buy in the market, but as a house they are going to live in. It is no good to just blame the architect + contractor when you have not participated whole heatedly.



You cant just recruit serving IAF officers into a company.

Incidents with HAL license made planes and HAL license overhauled planes.

IAF is not happy/sad as they have been totally kept in the dark.

IAF has no choice and no power to push for more involvement

The MoD under Anthony denied IAF any power to take over Tejas project or even assist HAL.

Only give ASR to DRDO and sit back and shut up.

IAF is not allowed to participate at all so it is completely the fault of architect (ADA/DRDO) and contractor (HAL)


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## indiatester

Etilla said:


> You cant just recruit serving IAF officers into a company.
> 
> Incidents with HAL license made planes and HAL license overhauled planes.
> 
> IAF is not happy/sad as they have been totally kept in the dark.
> 
> IAF has no choice and no power to push for more involvement
> 
> The MoD under Anthony denied IAF any power to take over Tejas project or even assist HAL.
> 
> Only give ASR to DRDO and sit back and shut up.
> 
> IAF is not allowed to participate at all so it is completely the fault of architect (ADA/DRDO) and contractor (HAL)



Is IAF just going to play the victim card?
I agree that HAL/ADA are not world class agencies. But that is what IAF has got. So I want to know how they contributed positively for their own good. Actually not even their own good, but in the interest of the nation.

I have people in my team who only give reasons for some failure and I have people who get superb work done under the same set of constraints. Guess who get better ratings.

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## Etilla

indiatester said:


> Is IAF just going to play the victim card?
> I agree that HAL/ADA are not world class agencies. But that is what IAF has got. So I want to know how they contributed positively for their own good. Actually not even their own good, but in the interest of the nation.
> 
> I have people in my team who only give reasons for some failure and I have people who get superb work done under the same set of constraints. Guess who get better ratings.



They have contributed by sacrificing many pilots to HAL.

They have contributed by ordering 40 Tejas and not taking legal action over delayed delivery

They have contributed by not shelving the project as it does not meet ASR.

You are underestimating the skill of IAF. If they wanted to bury Tejas then like HJT-39 it would never have happened and this thread and the previous thread never would have opened.

shamshan ghat pe kaam khatam kr dete

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## sancho

indiatester said:


> IAF is not a customer but is responsible for the air security of India. It must hence partner to ensure it has a capable fighter that can be counted upon in times of need. It can't have this standoff attitude and blame DRDO and HAL. They must do all it takes to ensure that.
> 
> I am yet to see what IAF has done to ensure success of Tejas.



In this case, IAF is the customer of a product that was developed for them, but not by taking them into the project as a partner in design and development. They gave the basic operational requirements, but it was DRDO that went for the project alone, with their own aims and ideas. It would be great if the forces would be more included and I am saying it for a long time, that we can't afford to give DRDO or HAL such a long leash to develop what THEY want, but that the MoD must give much more guidance to them, but that's still a long way to go.

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## Mujraparty

Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold

New Delhi, Jan 28 (IANS): In another landmark for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the aircraft was successfully *started thrice after an overnight soak in the extreme cold of Ladakh, where the temperature dropped to minus 15 degrees Celsius.*

*"With three consecutive start-ups of its engine after overnight soak in extreme cold conditions of the Ladakh winter, that too without any external assistance*, Tejas, the Indian LCA has achieved yet another and a rare distinction," a defence ministry statement said here Wednesday.

"Starting the fighter aircraft under such extreme condition without any external assistance or heating is a technology challenge. The requirements become further stringent when the starting is to be done three times consecutively with a partially charged battery," the statement said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar earlier this month handed over the first Tejas to Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha.
As a single-engine multi-role supersonic fighter, Tejas, which is 60 percent indigenous, is set to replace the IAF's ageing Russia-made MiG-21 fleet when inducted in six squadrons after defence regulator Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac) certifies it for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) later this year.

It has been developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The engine starter has been developed indigenously by HAL Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC) in Bengaluru.

*Prior to aircraft tests, the Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) was extensively tested to meet starting conditions across the operating altitudes including Leh (10,700 feet) and Khardungla (18,300 feet).*


Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold

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## Abingdonboy

eowyn said:


> Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold
> 
> New Delhi, Jan 28 (IANS): In another landmark for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the aircraft was successfully *started thrice after an overnight soak in the extreme cold of Ladakh, where the temperature dropped to minus 15 degrees Celsius.*
> 
> *"With three consecutive start-ups of its engine after overnight soak in extreme cold conditions of the Ladakh winter, that too without any external assistance*, Tejas, the Indian LCA has achieved yet another and a rare distinction," a defence ministry statement said here Wednesday.
> 
> "Starting the fighter aircraft under such extreme condition without any external assistance or heating is a technology challenge. The requirements become further stringent when the starting is to be done three times consecutively with a partially charged battery," the statement said.
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar earlier this month handed over the first Tejas to Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha.
> As a single-engine multi-role supersonic fighter, Tejas, which is 60 percent indigenous, is set to replace the IAF's ageing Russia-made MiG-21 fleet when inducted in six squadrons after defence regulator Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac) certifies it for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) later this year.
> 
> It has been developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The engine starter has been developed indigenously by HAL Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC) in Bengaluru.
> 
> *Prior to aircraft tests, the Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) was extensively tested to meet starting conditions across the operating altitudes including Leh (10,700 feet) and Khardungla (18,300 feet).*
> 
> 
> Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold

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## Supply&Demand

Abingdonboy said:


>



Can you please tell me, if u know, what r these white patches on the wings? they r ugly!


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## A2Z

Blaming would help no one, its high time and HAL should decide whether they would be able to make LCA or not if not then there is no point in wasting money on this project.

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## chalHat

A2Z said:


> Blaming would help no one, its high time and HAL should decide whether they would be able to make LCA or not if not then there is no point in wasting money on this project.


This can take some more time ,, but not even a .1% that this project is going to fail. Sooner or Later ,,, this is going to happen.We wil have Tejas no matter how


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## Iggy

eowyn said:


> Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold
> 
> New Delhi, Jan 28 (IANS): In another landmark for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the aircraft was successfully *started thrice after an overnight soak in the extreme cold of Ladakh, where the temperature dropped to minus 15 degrees Celsius.*
> 
> *"With three consecutive start-ups of its engine after overnight soak in extreme cold conditions of the Ladakh winter, that too without any external assistance*, Tejas, the Indian LCA has achieved yet another and a rare distinction," a defence ministry statement said here Wednesday.
> 
> "Starting the fighter aircraft under such extreme condition without any external assistance or heating is a technology challenge. The requirements become further stringent when the starting is to be done three times consecutively with a partially charged battery," the statement said.
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar earlier this month handed over the first Tejas to Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha.
> As a single-engine multi-role supersonic fighter, Tejas, which is 60 percent indigenous, is set to replace the IAF's ageing Russia-made MiG-21 fleet when inducted in six squadrons after defence regulator Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac) certifies it for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) later this year.
> 
> It has been developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
> 
> The engine starter has been developed indigenously by HAL Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC) in Bengaluru.
> 
> *Prior to aircraft tests, the Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) was extensively tested to meet starting conditions across the operating altitudes including Leh (10,700 feet) and Khardungla (18,300 feet).*
> 
> 
> Tejas starts after overnight soak in extreme cold


 I dobt understand, isnt it the same engine used in F 18s ? Then how come it failed in Leh test and the engine in Thejas worked?Is bcoz of the weight difference?


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## Krate M

Supply&Demand said:


> Can you please tell me, if u know, what r these white patches on the wings? they r ugly!


Peeled off paint. Tapes are used to stick tufts of threads to do inflight airflow analysis. Peel them off and paint peels with them.
Smoke and Tuft Flow Visualization



chalHat said:


> This can take some more time ,, but not even a .1% that this project is going to fail. Sooner or Later ,,, this is going to happen.We wil have Tejas no matter how


Correction: We *have* Tejas. Already inducted.

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## r101

what will be kaveri gtre future??


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## sancho

seiko said:


> I dobt understand, isnt it the same engine used in F 18s ? Then how come it failed in Leh test and the engine in Thejas worked?Is bcoz of the weight difference?



=> 

February 5, 2013*...*

...Talking to reporters, the IAF chief said the indigenous aircraft *will have to be modified further for operating in high-altitude areas as recently during trials in Leh, its engine "did not work"*...
*...Browne said delays do take place in a development project such as the LCA. "Recently we went for high-altitude trials. The engine (of LCA) did not work at that altitude because it is a different cup of tea. Even the Su-30, when it was taken to Leh, it had to be modified. So, the LCA will have to be modified. It has to do the retrials," he said...*

'LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015' | Business Standard News

Just as the fighters in the MMRCA trials needed modifications of the engine to finally do the trials, the same is needed for the LCA, not that much of a deal.

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## Badbadman

Just like scooters, They would have put a chok in the engine. 
Too cold, pull the chok and wallah.

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## A2Z

chalHat said:


> but not even a .1% that this project is going to fail. Sooner or Later ,,, this is going to happen.We wil have Tejas no matter how


Now this is the sort of confidence IAF should show in Tejas put aside the Rafales and sukhois and show interest in LCA.
This sort of attitude will be a confidence booster for HAL and soon you'll see Tejas in skies and I mean in large numbers.

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## MehrotraPrince



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## Etilla

A2Z said:


> Now this is the sort of confidence IAF should show in Tejas put aside the Rafales and sukhois and show interest in LCA.
> This sort of attitude will be a confidence booster for HAL and soon you'll see Tejas in skies and I mean in large numbers.



Will be a confidence booster for PAF and PLAAF not IAF


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## Stephen Cohen

Etilla said:


> Will be a confidence booster for PAF and PLAAF not IAF



LCA mk 1 after FOC will be capable aircraft 

Definitely better than Mig 21 and Mig 27 

Do you mean to say that RIGHT NOW PAF and PLAAF 
are very confident against IAF because we have planes like Mig 21 and Mig 27

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## Etilla

Stephen Cohen said:


> LCA mk 1 after FOC will be capable aircraft
> 
> Definitely better than Mig 21 and Mig 27
> 
> Do you mean to say that RIGHT NOW PAF and PLAAF
> are very confident against IAF because we have planes like Mig 21 and Mig 27



Tejas mk1 after FOC will lack the interception capability of Mig-21 and bombing capability (range-payload) of Mig-27

So it will be a confidence booster for PAF and PLAAF


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## Krate M

Hey @Etilla show me a reference to range with payload of mig27.

Due to lack of radar and need to use pods for laser target designator and external radar, the payload capacity of mig27 drops to less than LCA. Plus mig27 engine is a known problem case worldwide.
And mig27 cannot fire r73, it can only fire r60, which has lesser range.

And after FOC it will have the interception capabilities of mig21, that is bvr missile and gun firing. Because it is a part of the FOC capabilities.

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## A2Z

Etilla said:


> Tejas mk1 after FOC will lack the interception capability of Mig-21 and bombing capability (range-payload) of Mig-27


I thought Tejas is an aircraft ready to be battle tested but with the problems you have quoted even after FOC it would need some time to mature and meet IAF's demands.
Btw when will it be given FOC?


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## SipahSalar

Does India even need HAL? Considering they already have a very large number of Su-27s. They should scrap the program and spend these resources somewhere else. Or if they want their own fighter so bad, they should start a new program from scratch.

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## sancho

A2Z said:


> I thought Tejas is an aircraft ready to be battle tested but with the problems you have quoted even after FOC it would need some time to mature and meet IAF's demands.
> Btw when will it be given FOC?



FOC's now is expected by the end of this year and Etilla is mistaken about it, since the IAF requirements will be fulfilled by achieving FOC standard.


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## Etilla

A2Z said:


> I thought Tejas is an aircraft ready to be battle tested but with the problems you have quoted even after FOC it would need some time to mature and meet IAF's demands.
> Btw when will it be given FOC?



Tejas will never meet ASR of IAF.

FOC maybe by next year if IAF decides to exclude BVR and Mid-air refueling

Tejas has a very weak radar and a defective indigenous radome which makes firing BVR-AAM impossible.


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## kaku1

Etilla said:


> Tejas will never meet ASR of IAF.
> 
> FOC maybe by next year if IAF decides to exclude BVR and Mid-air refueling
> 
> Tejas has a very weak radar and a defective indigenous radome which makes firing BVR-AAM impossible.


Are you Indian? Because everybody knows this HAL imported Quartz Redome from Britain in Nov.


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## Storm Force

You people have no idea about fighter induction.

Block one fighters have certain defencies in all planes when they achieve block one foc.

Euro fighter typhoon entered service with no cannon
Thunder with. No bvr 

So tejas will have a slight weak radar abd engine 

W

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## Etilla

kaku1 said:


> Are you Indian? Because everybody knows this HAL imported Quartz Redome from Britain in Nov.



Which has not been calibrated and is not guaranteed to fix inherent flaws in the shitty radar


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## kaku1

Etilla said:


> Which has not been calibrated and is not guaranteed to fix inherent flaws in the shitty radar


Lol, in ELM-2032?

BTW, how you know so much internal info, that there is calibration problem?


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## Etilla

kaku1 said:


> Lol, in ELM-2032?
> 
> BTW, how you know so much internal info, that there is calibration problem?



EL/M 2032 is NOT on Tejas

Tejas has a hybrid DRDO-Elta radar.

EL/M 2032 is on INAS Sea Harrier and IAF Jaguars (IM version had from before and other variants getting it now under DARIN-III)

Im an Indian FYI not a **** as some idiots are saying


----------



## kaku1

Etilla said:


> EL/M 2032 is NOT on Tejas
> 
> Tejas has a hybrid DRDO-Elta radar.
> 
> EL/M 2032 is on INAS Sea Harrier and IAF Jaguars (IM version had from before and other variants getting it now under DARIN-III)
> 
> Im an Indian FYI not a **** as some idiots are saying


Bro, its hybrid version of ELM-2032.And there is no problem in radar.

@amardeep mishra Please help this guy.


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## Etilla

kaku1 said:


> Bro, its hybrid version of ELM-2032.And there is no problem in radar.



If no problem in radar why is it that HAL/DRDO is only "expecting" radar range to increase to 80km when the current defective indigenous kevlar-composite radome replaced with the imported cobham quartz radome?

As everyone knows EL/M 2032 has 150km A2A range ( supposedly better than N011M BARS 140km range )


----------



## GORKHALI

Etilla said:


> Tejas will never meet ASR of IAF.
> 
> FOC maybe by next year if IAF decides to exclude BVR and Mid-air refueling
> 
> Tejas has a very weak radar and a defective indigenous radome which makes firing BVR-AAM impossible.





Etilla said:


> Tejas will never meet ASR of IAF.
> 
> FOC maybe by next year if IAF decides to exclude BVR and Mid-air refueling
> 
> Tejas has a very weak radar and a defective indigenous radome which makes firing BVR-AAM impossible.





Etilla said:


> Which has not been calibrated and is not guaranteed to fix inherent flaws in the shitty radar


Just follow his posts and you will come to know what he is,

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## Krate M

@Etilla kindly answer my points


Krate M said:


> Hey @Etilla show me a reference to range with payload of mig27.
> 
> Due to lack of radar and need to use pods for laser target designator and external radar, the payload capacity of mig27 drops to less than LCA. Plus mig27 engine is a known problem case worldwide.
> And mig27 cannot fire r73, it can only fire r60, which has lesser range.
> 
> And after FOC it will have the interception capabilities of mig21, that is bvr missile and gun firing. Because it is a part of the FOC capabilities.


----------



## Etilla

Krate M said:


> @Etilla kindly answer my points



You have to prove it does not fire R-73 and R-77 and R-27 missiles

It your weird theory it does not

Lack of radar LOL


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## Echo_419

Etilla said:


> Tejas will never meet ASR of IAF.
> 
> FOC maybe by next year if IAF decides to exclude BVR and Mid-air refueling
> 
> Tejas has a very weak radar and a defective indigenous radome which makes firing BVR-AAM impossible.



Wrong


----------



## Etilla

Echo_419 said:


> Wrong



Tejas Needs to Cross 6 Milestones in 15 Months -The New Indian Express


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## Etilla

GORKHALI said:


> R73  motherfucker asshole go and check google...And do report so that you change ur flags or atleast mods ban you from Indian thread.


reported

shame on you for calling fellow Indians as Pakistani


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## Krate M

Etilla said:


> You have to prove it does not fire R-73 and R-77 and R-27 missiles
> 
> It your weird theory it does not
> 
> Lack of radar LOL


Boss mig 23 27 and Jaguar don't have radar as they are configured for a2g. 
MiG-27K (MiG 23) Flogger Fighter Bomber - Airforce Technology

The air-to-air missile carried on the MiG-27K is the R-60M (NATO designation AA-8 Aphid) supplied by Vympel.
The MiG-27K does not carry any airborne radar.

Read up.
Bvr missiles like r77 depend on radar. And mig27 does not fire r77 and r73 missile.

Please give one link or reference for inbuilt radar in mig27 and capability to fire R73 and r77.

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## Etilla

Krate M said:


> Boss mig 23 27 and Jaguar don't have radar as they are configured for a2g.
> MiG-27K (MiG 23) Flogger Fighter Bomber - Airforce Technology
> 
> The air-to-air missile carried on the MiG-27K is the R-60M (NATO designation AA-8 Aphid) supplied by Vympel.
> The MiG-27K does not carry any airborne radar.
> 
> Read up.
> Bvr missiles like r77 depend on radar. And mig27 does not fire r77 and r73 missile.
> 
> Please give one link or reference for inbuilt radar in mig27 and capability to fire R73 and r77.



Jaguar has EL/M 2032 MMR radar with 150km A-A range and 300km A-G range and it is accordingly armed with ASRAAM and in IM variant the Harpoon Blk 2

Tejas is nowhere near Jaguar

Jaguar 6.5 ton payload with Honeywell engines
Combat radius was around 700km with the old engine so current radius lo-lo-lo much higher

Tejas upto 3 ton payload with F404 engine
300km combat radius armed with A2A missiles
With bombs it is just a fraction of Jaguar range

R-60 is old and history. The life of the missile expires over time and they have to be replaced


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## Krate M

Etilla said:


> Jaguar has EL/M 2032 MMR radar with 150km A-A range and 300km A-G range and it is accordingly armed with ASRAAM and in IM variant the Harpoon Blk 2
> 
> R-60 is old and history. The life of the missile expires over time and they have to be replaced


Link? A photo of mig27 with r73 r77 would be enough.


----------



## Etilla

Krate M said:


> Link? A photo of mig27 with r73 r77 would be enough.



You have to prove it does not as you have your own weird theory it does not

Bottom line Tejas cannot replace Mig27 in strike/CAS role or A2A role


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## Krate M

Etilla said:


> You have to prove it does not as you have your own weird theory it does not
> 
> Bottom line Tejas cannot replace Mig27 in strike/CAS role or A2A role


I did provide link above, your turn to disprove.
a2a for mig27? Please enlighten me.


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## Chak Bamu

Those who have been accusing @Etilla of being a false-flagger need to tolerate difference of opinion.

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## Etilla

Krate M said:


> I did provide link above, your turn to disprove.
> a2a for mig27? Please enlighten me.



You have not proved it does not fire R27.73,77

You have made absurd claims and you need to prove them


----------



## NKVD

Etilla said:


> You have not proved it does not fire R27.73,77
> 
> You have made absurd claims and you need to prove them


LCA Already cleared IOC-2.To fulfill the IOC-II standard, the aircraft was certified to carry close to three tons of weapons which include laser-guided 500 kg bombs and short-range R-73 missiles,[94][95] reach top speeds of 1,350 km per hour, withstand turns up to 7 g, reach angle of attack of 24 degrees (from 17 degrees initially), and have an operational radius of 400–500 km. Cost of a single unit in the IOC-2 configuration is between ₹170 crore and ₹180 crore
Tejas all set to get certification for IAF induction - The Hindu

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## Etilla

NKVD said:


> LCA Already cleared IOC-2.To fulfill the IOC-II standard, the aircraft was certified to carry close to three tons of weapons which include laser-guided 500 kg bombs and short-range R-73 missiles,[94][95] reach top speeds of 1,350 km per hour, withstand turns up to 7 g, reach angle of attack of 24 degrees (from 17 degrees initially), and have an operational radius of 400–500 km. Cost of a single unit in the IOC-2 configuration is between ₹170 crore and ₹180 crore
> Tejas all set to get certification for IAF induction - The Hindu


all true 
except range 

and cost is more than 200 crores


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## NKVD

Etilla said:


> except range


It will be Increased in FOC Good thing is Serial Production is Started


Etilla said:


> and cost is more than 200 crores


It will be decrease As Production Lines Get More Mature.To meet the growing demand, the HAL would be ramping up the production from 4 aircraft in 2014 to eight each in the following two years and 16 in the years thereafter.


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## TWINBLADE

I


Chak Bamu said:


> Those who have been accusing @Etilla of being a false-flagger need to tolerate difference of opinion.


Saar plz follow his posts,...Here is the gem,Tejas yet to fire R73.


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## Krate M

Etilla said:


> You have not proved it does not fire R27.73,77
> 
> You have made absurd claims and you need to prove them


I have provided link which lists the weapons qualified on mig27. Your claims to contrary need verification.
Similarly your claims of inbuilt radar need to be substantiated.
PS
More links for you
MiG-27 FLOGGER D, J (MIKOYAN-GUREVICH)
*Sensors* LRMTS, RWR, Advanced Bombsight
*Armament* Cannon: GSh-6-N-30 30mm rotary
AS-12, AS-14, AA-8, ECN Pod, UV-32-57 rocket pod, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-500

Mikoyan MiG-27 (Flogger) - Ground Attack Aircraft - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft


@Chak Bamu I have no problem with whatever nationality of poster, but are such unsubstantiated claims like bvr missiles on mig27 along with inbuilt radar, r73 firing etc really improving forum discussion quality?


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## Etilla

NKVD said:


> It will be Increased in FOC Good thing is Serial Production is Started
> 
> It will be decrease As Production Lines Get More Mature.To meet the growing demand, the HAL would be ramping up the production from 4 aircraft in 2014 to eight each in the following two years and 16 in the years thereafter.



16... Impossible



TWINBLADE said:


> I
> 
> Saar plz follow his posts,...Here is the gem,Tejas yet to fire R73.



Where? Point it out



Krate M said:


> I have provided link which lists the weapons qualified on mig27. Your claims to contrary need verification.
> Similarly your claims of inbuilt radar need to be substantiated.
> PS
> More links for you
> MiG-27 FLOGGER D, J (MIKOYAN-GUREVICH)
> *Sensors* LRMTS, RWR, Advanced Bombsight
> *Armament* Cannon: GSh-6-N-30 30mm rotary
> AS-12, AS-14, AA-8, ECN Pod, UV-32-57 rocket pod, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-500
> 
> Mikoyan MiG-27 (Flogger) - Ground Attack Aircraft - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft
> 
> 
> @Chak Bamu I have no problem with whatever nationality of poster, but are such unsubstantiated claims like bvr missiles on mig27 along with inbuilt radar, r73 firing etc really improving forum discussion quality?



Mig23 carries R-27,73,77 and Mig-27 is the strike variant of Mig-23

R-60 like Magic 550 missiles don't have life left


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## TWINBLADE

Chak Bamu said:


> Those who have been accusing @Etilla of being a false-flagger need to tolerate difference of opinion.


More gems saar from same poster-It's ALMOST a *TOTAL rip-off* of the*Kawasaki BK-117* and *"Eurocopter EC-145"* (Which is a variant of the BK-117). A MASSIVE Design failure on the Indian part. Couldn't they have come up with something a BIT more original?

Here's a couple of images that would give you folks a better idea of what I'm talking about ... After all, Images speak louder than words. You be the judge...

*Kawasaki BK-117 - First flight in 1979. Introduced in 1982


Let me know if you want more.
*


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## Krate M

@Etilla mig27 is a ground attack optimized version of mig23, so the radar was replaced by ground attack sensor like nose mounted irst.

This is mentioned in the link posted above. Your posts on the other hand have not mentioned a single link to back your claims


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## Etilla

Krate M said:


> @Etilla mig27 is a ground attack optimized version of mig23, so the radar was replaced by ground attack sensor like nose mounted irst.
> 
> This is mentioned in the link posted above. Your posts on the other hand have not mentioned a single link to back your claims



R-60 missiles not produced for some time now and life of missile unit over

So naturally IAF will qualify R-73 on it unless they want to qualify the itself expired 550 magic

Bottom line Tejas cannot replace Mig-27 in strike role and Mig-27 can better defend itself if intercepted


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## Krate M

Etilla said:


> R-60 missiles not produced for some time now and life of missile unit over
> 
> So naturally IAF will qualify R-73 on it unless they want to qualify the itself expired 550 magic
> 
> Bottom line Tejas cannot replace Mig-27 in strike role and Mig-27 can better defend itself if intercepted


That is your absurd claim, back it up with proof like link or photo by IAF or from aeroindia etc


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## Chak Bamu

TWINBLADE said:


> More gems saar from same poster-It's ALMOST a *TOTAL rip-off* of the*Kawasaki BK-117* and *"Eurocopter EC-145"* (Which is a variant of the BK-117). A MASSIVE Design failure on the Indian part. Couldn't they have come up with something a BIT more original?
> 
> Here's a couple of images that would give you folks a better idea of what I'm talking about ... After all, Images speak louder than words. You be the judge...
> 
> *Kawasaki BK-117 - First flight in 1979. Introduced in 1982
> 
> 
> Let me know if you want more.*



Do I care what you think where someone belongs? Do you think that lacking hyper-nationalism is some sort of a deficiency or proof of lack of certain nationality.

Do not respond to moderation. It is meant to correct imbalances, not lead into tangents and Off-topic posts.


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> That is your absurd claim, back it up with proof like link or photo by IAF or from aeroindia etc



Don't bother, just stick to the topic.

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## A2Z

Storm Force said:


> You people have no idea about fighter induction.
> 
> Block one fighters have certain defencies in all planes when they achieve block one foc.
> 
> Euro fighter typhoon entered service with no cannon
> Thunder with. No bvr
> 
> So tejas will have a slight weak radar abd engine
> 
> W


Totally agree with you, induction is just the first step. Tejas has to travel a long way even after that and will see more improvements with the time. 
But there is one thing I don't understand that why isn't IAF inducting Tejas? IAF can start training with the available aircraft and then upgrade them later on when the issues get resolved.
IAF not using Tejas either means there is some major problem that both IAF and HAL know but does not want to reveal, or IAF has a mind set that we in sub-continent call "ghar ki murgi daal barabar".



SipahSalar said:


> Does India even need HAL? Considering they already have a very large number of Su-27s. They should scrap the program and spend these resources somewhere else. Or if they want their own fighter so bad, they should start a new program from scratch.


Starting a new program would mean India should forget about an indigenous fighter for another 20 years plus that would mean all the time, money and energy spent on Tejas was wasted. Moreover starting a new 4th gen aircraft program now when the world is looking at 5th gen (even India) would be a foolish thing to do.
Even if India scraps the program then wise thing would be to quietly accept the french offer and get all the Rafales manufactured in France and induct them asap.
Or they can even ask for a couple of squadrons of Thunders. But i know they wont do that. JK

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## SipahSalar

A2Z said:


> Starting a new program would mean India should forget about an indigenous fighter for another 20 years plus that would mean all the time, money and energy spent on Tejas was wasted. Moreover starting a new 4th gen aircraft program now when the world is looking at 5th gen (even India) would be a foolish thing to do.
> Even if India scraps the program then wise thing would be to quietly accept the french offer and get all the Rafales manufactured in France and induct them asap.
> Or they can even ask for a couple of squadrons of Thunders. But i know they wont do that.


Completely disagree. Starting a new program does not mean that all the expertise learned from the HAL program will be lost. In fact all of that experience can be applied to the new program, giving it a boost. 
Also there is no such thing as 5th gen, 4th gen. All of that is a marketing scam.


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## Paksanity

Go on guys...


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## Krate M

Paksanity said:


> Go on guys...


Nah we know the trolls. We ain't that big fools. Disband hal coz a Pakistani asks for it. Wrong government for that. Last government might have tried, if you asked.

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## Etilla

Last govt. was in love with hal. Direct commission from Bangalore instead of having to route it through several continents.

By kicking chander to the street and cancelling failed kaveri the current govt. is going all guns blazing at these good for nothing babus



SipahSalar said:


> Completely disagree. Starting a new program does not mean that all the expertise learned from the HAL program will be lost. In fact all of that experience can be applied to the new program, giving it a boost.
> Also there is no such thing as 5th gen, 4th gen. All of that is a marketing scam.



What Tejas is to India Sabre II is to Pakistan


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## RPK

HAL has made successful extreme cold weather trials in Jan 2015 on LCA- Tejas at Leh. “The aircraft made three consecutive starts using indigenous gas turbine starter at -15 °C with 85% charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18-20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting”, says Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL.

This success is a feather in the cap of HAL. A team of more than 15 engineers and technicians from HAL worked to solve the peculiar requirement faced in starting a Gas Turbine Engine in the rarefied and cold atmospheres found at Leh.

The gas turbine starter unit of HAL used to start the engine for LCA has been designed, developed and manufactured by its Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC). The first success was the rig trials with a modified starting schedule conducted at Leh (3260 m altitude) in July and August 2014. During this period HAL also successfully demonstrated the start capability of its starter even at a high altitude of 5.6 km.

HAL received external support from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), CEMILAC, DGAQA, IAF-PMT, NFTC and others for this mission.














Tarmak007 | Facebook

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## Badbadman

Possible Naval LCA mk 2

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## Water Car Engineer

Badbadman said:


> View attachment 189584
> 
> Possible Naval LCA mk 2




Nice catch, it's actually the look of NP2, which is the single seater prototype which we will see soon.

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## HariPrasad

seiko said:


> I dobt understand, isnt it the same engine used in F 18s ? Then how come it failed in Leh test and the engine in Thejas worked?Is bcoz of the weight difference?




It is basically because of indigenous igniter. It is not easy to ignite the engine in -15 * c with partly charged battery.


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## Ind4Ever

*Tejas Successfully Passes Extreme Cold Weather Trials in Leh*
SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/LCA-Tejas-MK-I-high-Altitude-trials-at-Leh.jpg

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has successfully conducted extreme cold weather trials on Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in Leh.

“The aircraft made three consecutive starts using the indigenous gas turbine starter at -15°C with 85 per cent charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18 to 20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting,” said HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju.

According to a release issued by HAL, a team of 15 engineers and technicians from HAL worked to solve the peculiar requirement faced in starting a gas turbine engine in the rarefied and cold atmospheres found at Leh. The gas turbine starter unit of HAL, used to start the engine for the LCA, has been designed, developed and manufactured by its Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC).

The rig trials with a modified starting schedule were conducted at Leh (3260 m altitude) in July and August last year. During that period, HAL had demonstrated the capability of its starter at a high altitude of 5.6 km, the release said.

HAL had recently handed over the first series production aircraft to the IAF

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## Abingdonboy



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## TWINBLADE

Abingdonboy said:


>


DASH 3 HMDS or Topsight 1 ?


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## Abingdonboy

TWINBLADE said:


> DASH 3 HMDS or Topsight 1 ?


DASH III

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## IrbiS




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## Supply&Demand

guys...do we have any official pic of LCA MK2 design?


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## Otocal

Supply&Demand said:


> guys...do we have any official pic of LCA MK2 design?



I think ADA and DRDO are still designing it so no official pic


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>




Would had been better to post the pics here, instead of 2 different N-LCA threads don't you think.

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## Hindustani78

Ind4Ever said:


> *Tejas Successfully Passes Extreme Cold Weather Trials in Leh*
> SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has successfully conducted extreme cold weather trials on Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in Leh.
> 
> “The aircraft made three consecutive starts using the indigenous gas turbine starter at -15°C with 85 per cent charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18 to 20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting,” said HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju.
> 
> According to a release issued by HAL, a team of 15 engineers and technicians from HAL worked to solve the peculiar requirement faced in starting a gas turbine engine in the rarefied and cold atmospheres found at Leh. The gas turbine starter unit of HAL, used to start the engine for the LCA, has been designed, developed and manufactured by its Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC).
> 
> The rig trials with a modified starting schedule were conducted at Leh (3260 m altitude) in July and August last year. During that period, HAL had demonstrated the capability of its starter at a high altitude of 5.6 km, the release said.
> 
> HAL had recently handed over the first series production aircraft to the IAF




Media Releases

2 FEB 2015
LCA –Tejas Passes Cold-Weather Test at Leh







*Bengaluru, February 2, 2015:*

HAL has made successful extreme cold weather trials in Jan 2015 on LCA- Tejas at Leh. “The aircraft made three consecutive starts using indigenous gas turbine starter at -15 °C with 85% charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18-20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting”, says Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL.

This success is a feather in the cap of HAL. A team of more than 15 engineers and technicians from HAL worked to solve the peculiar requirement faced in starting a Gas Turbine Engine in the rarefied and cold atmospheres found at Leh. 

The gas turbine starter unit of HAL used to start the engine for LCA has been designed, developed and manufactured by its Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC). The first success was the rig trials with a modified starting schedule conducted at Leh (3260 m altitude) in July and August 2014. During this period HAL also successfully demonstrated the start capability of its starter even at a high altitude of 5.6 km.

HAL received external support from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), CEMILAC, DGAQA, IAF-PMT, NFTC and others for this mission.

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## IrbiS



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## Krate M

The increased pace is now becoming obvious. 
From the major remaining work
1 IFR probe integration HAL has experience with the Jaguar upgrade. Might not be same thing but it helps.
2 Integration of BVR missile. Experience with the LUSH sea harrier upgrade would be extremely useful. Because the missiles are same and so is the backend radar data processing part of elta2032.

Gun firing would be the biggest challenge.


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## sancho

NP1 and NP2 head to head







Krate M said:


> The increased pace is now becoming obvious.



Where do you see that? 

LCA MK1 SP1 planned for March 2014 => came at the end of September
LCA MK1 SP2 planned for 2014 => not available till now
LCA MK1 FOC planned for December 2014 => now planned for the end of 2015
N-LCA TD2 planned for November 2014 => came in Febuary 2015

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## Krate M

@sancho not pace of production, pace of testing.

In the pic you posted, the landing gear of NP2 seems slightly different. Also change in the rwr, newer version of tarang installed?


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## topgun047

Earlier they used to miss deadlines by half a decade, now its only an year or so


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## Supply&Demand

I like the NP2's looks..But dont know why many of the posters in BRF hate it.


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## topgun047

The naval version looks so much better.
The pronounced crank of the wings looks so sexy.

This is the MK II right ?


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## Abingdonboy

Krate M said:


> @sancho not pace of production, pace of testing.
> 
> In the pic you posted, the landing gear of NP2 seems slightly different. Also change in the rwr, newer version of tarang installed?


I don't know if I can see any changes in the landing gear, the idea had been to modify the landing gear that was seen on the NP1 as it was seen as "over engineered" and "too strong" but they did this on the NP-1 itself (why there was so long in between its tests) and I assume they've put the same (modified) landing gear on the NP-2 now.


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## Krate M

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't know if I can see any changes in the landing gear, the idea had been to modify the landing gear that was seen on the NP1 as it was seen as "over engineered" and "too strong" but they did this on the NP-1 itself (why there was so long in between its tests) and I assume they've put the same (modified) landing gear on the NP-2 now.


The hydraulic parts of the rear wheels are different ( seen right below the missile tip)


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## Otocal

Krate M said:


> The increased pace is now becoming obvious.
> From the major remaining work
> 1 IFR probe integration HAL has experience with the Jaguar upgrade. Might not be same thing but it helps.
> 2 Integration of BVR missile. Experience with the LUSH sea harrier upgrade would be extremely useful. Because the missiles are same and so is the backend radar data processing part of elta2032.
> 
> Gun firing would be the biggest challenge.



Problem with overheating brake system solved?


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## Krate M

Otocal said:


> Problem with overheating brake system solved?


You mean airbrake? I can't tell that from a photo.


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## Otocal

Krate M said:


> You mean airbrake? I can't tell that from a photo.



In terms of challenges to be overcome.


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## Abingdonboy

Krate M said:


> The hydraulic parts of the rear wheels are different ( seen right below the missile tip)


Hmmm I guess I see it. 

This is pretty consistent with what was explained in the Aero India 2013 seminar on the NLCA by the Chief NFTC pilot ( an IN officer) who said they would be going in two different directions with the landing gear to test different ideas and that he/they expected one of the designs to break during testing and accepted this.


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> not pace of production, pace of testing.


That's even worse, when you compare what they wanted to achieve from IOC2 in 2013 till FOC at the end of 2014 and that now is delayed till the end of 2015. The production delayes are manageable, but the delays in development and testing are really hitting the fighter project. 



Krate M said:


> In the pic you posted, the landing gear of NP2 seems slightly different. Also change in the rwr, newer version of tarang installed?



The NP2 is based on the latest LSP versions, so has the same EW and avionics installed as the land based prototypes.


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## Krate M

sancho said:


> That's even worse, when you compare what they wanted to achieve from IOC2 in 2013 till FOC at the end of 2014 and that now is delayed till the end of 2015. The production delayes are manageable, but the delays in development and testing are really hitting the fighter project.
> 
> 
> 
> The NP2 is based on the latest LSP versions, so has the same EW and avionics installed as the land based prototypes.


About avionics it has a major difference in the datalink which is common with the naval aviation datalink used in mig29k p8i etc mk2 datalink by BEL.

I have found that delay strange especially after the increase in number of prototype in testing. This is where the delay in freezing the specs for LSP and SP has been a huge obstacle. Different LSPs had difference in specifications and time was wasted in standardization.

I hope that this aspect is taken care of in mk2 and amca projects.
My point was about achieving major milestone achieved.



Otocal said:


> In terms of challenges to be overcome.


Bhai we are comparing NP2 to SP1, I don't think there is a change in the airbrake.


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## Otocal

Krate M said:


> About avionics it has a major difference in the datalink which is common with the naval aviation datalink used in mig29k p8i etc mk2 datalink by BEL.
> 
> I have found that delay strange especially after the increase in number of prototype in testing. This is where the delay in freezing the specs for LSP and SP has been a huge obstacle. Different LSPs had difference in specifications and time was wasted in standardization.
> 
> I hope that this aspect is taken care of in mk2 and amca projects.
> My point was about achieving major milestone achieved.
> 
> 
> Bhai we are comparing NP2 to SP1, I don't think there is a change in the airbrake.



No no i mean something else....

To clear FOC there is some issue in brake overheating. Air brake or something else i don't know.

btw what sort of airbrake does Tejas have? The sort on Su30mki and F-35 which open up as flap behind cockpit? Ive never seen it in images


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> I have found that delay strange especially after the increase in number of prototype in testing. This is where the delay in freezing the specs for LSP and SP has been a huge obstacle. Different LSPs had difference in specifications and time was wasted in standardization.



Well, you don't need an SP aircraft to integrate and test the gun, to integrate and flight test BVR missiles (until the nose issue is solved and the full radar performance is available), but none of this seems to have been done yet.

LIVEFIST: What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready

1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G) - *unclear?*
2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°) - *rumored to be improved towards FOC requirement*
3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete) - *delayed*
4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile - *delayed*
5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile - *(if true at all) delayed*
6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon - *delayed*
7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight - *uncear (not sure if they meant the 725l centerline tank)?*
8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance - * delayed*
9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly - *unlcear?*
10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs - *done although no PGM was tested.*

So did we really achieved something since IOC2 and improved the testing pace?

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## Krate M

@sancho I will wait for more details from aeroindia on atleast half of those things.

The cold weather trials are very important and clearing them opens up number of the airbases and also makes it all weather capable. Leh based test was a very important one, and fact that some mmrca failed it shows capabilities being built up.

FOC is a lot of things, not just weapons capability, so these tests are equally important.


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> I will wait for more details from aeroindia on atleast half of those things.



I'm eagerly waiting for more infos too, the fact however remains, that the planned FOC wasn't achieved and even ADA / DRDO estimate it to happen only at the of the year, which tells a lot. 



Krate M said:


> The cold weather trials are very important and clearing them opens up number of the airbases and also makes it all weather capable. Leh based test was a very important one, and fact that some mmrca failed it shows capabilities being built up.



See my earlier post:

HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2] | Page 9


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Well, you don't need an SP aircraft to integrate and test the gun, to integrate and flight test BVR missiles (until the nose issue is solved and the full radar performance is available), but none of this seems to have been done yet.
> 
> LIVEFIST: What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready
> 
> 1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G) - *unclear?*
> 2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°) - *rumored to be improved towards FOC requirement*
> 3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete) - *delayed*
> 4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile - *delayed*
> 5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile - *(if true at all) delayed*
> 6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon - *delayed*
> 7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight - *uncear (not sure if they meant the 725l centerline tank)?*
> 8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance - * delayed*
> 9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly - *unlcear?*
> 10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs - *done although no PGM was tested.*
> 
> So did we really achieved something since IOC2 and improved the testing pace?



The hell were these idiots doing since IOC 2


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## sancho

*IAF Vs IN*

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> *IAF Vs IN*
> View attachment 191446
> 
> View attachment 191447


From this angle you can really see how over engineered that landing gear is on the NLCA at the moment.

------------------


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## Abingdonboy



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## Krate M

@sancho let's see what new information comes out of aeroindia.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> From this angle you can really see how over engineered that landing gear is on the NLCA at the moment.














N-LCA NP2, Mig 29K, Rafale M, not to scale though but gives a good comparison.

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## sancho

> *PART 1: Big Surprises In LCA Navy NP1's Ski-Jump Fight *
> 
> When the first prototype of India's LCA Navy (NP1) roared off the ski-jump at the Shore-based Test Facility (SBTF) for the first time on December 20 last year, no one from the team observing the jet from the flightline and from telemetry stations knew that something unseen had happened. Something that would only become known later in the day when performance data was analysed. And it was good, solid news, much needed for a team that has seen little more than questions, derision and barely veiled bemusement. Importantly, it was the first time the team felt it had an answer to the 'what use is this platform, really?' question...
> 
> ...And that's where it gets interesting
> 
> Top sources on the team say the NP1 was flown a few times conventially before the ski-jump test to soak up the thick sea-level air in Goa. As expected, engine performance was markedly better. Spirits were high, but as has become the norm on milestone tests in the Tejas programme, there was pervasive nervousness. Surprises can be nasty. And the ski-jump test would leave no recovery time if something went wrong. As the Team says, "The first attempt at any new activity is fraught with uncertainties and potential surprises. Given the 'leap off the edge' nature of the first launch, all the major possibilities of failure were identified and options to handle them were built into the plan."
> The test flight team decided to lock 5.7 degrees as the minimum climb angle for the NP1 once it made the leap off the ski-jump. When the aircraft actually did roar into the sky, the actual minimum climb angle was observed to be in excess of 10 degrees. Also, the NP1 achieved an angle of attack after ramp exit of 21.6 degrees, giving the team healthy new margins to work with in terms of performance. Simply put, the aircraft performed better than the team ever thought it could.
> Now you can argue that safety margins always allow for bumps in performance, but the number crunch that evening demonstrated that the NP1 had exceeded expectations healthily...
> 
> ...The Indian Navy, which has ordered six of LCA Navy Mk.1 has indicated, albeit unofficially, that the Mk.1 platform is likely never to see actual carrier service. While the performance surprises of December aren't likely to change that, the numbers have changed. And that's something.



LIVEFIST: PART 1: Big Surprises In LCA Navy NP1's Ski-Jump Fight

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## gslv mk3

Abingdonboy said:


> From this angle you can really see how over engineered that landing gear is on the NLCA at the moment.



I don't think it is over engineered...


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## Didact

gslv mk3 said:


> I don't think it is over engineered...



Nah, it probably is. And for good reason too. It's quite common to over-engineer a prototype, to add a certain extra layer of safety if you will. As more and more test data is collected and analysed and the exact parameters of loading and shock the structure will have to undergo, the prototype is slimmed down.

I've seen far simpler, and cheaper shock absorbing systems, and subsystems being over-engineered to a factor of safety 6 or even 9, when perhaps 1.1 or 1.5 was required.

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## Abingdonboy

gslv mk3 said:


> I don't think it is over engineered...


When I say "over engineered" I am directly quoting the chief test pilot of the NFTC:






For the Mk.1 the LG were over engineered a) because this is a prototype but more importantly b) because the IN had little say in the design of the Mk.1 (which NP-1 and 2 are based on) so there has been little strengthening of the actual airframe for the NP-1/2 meaning a grossly over engineered LG needed to be designed to absorb the impact itself without passing the load into the airframe. The IN has had more say in the Mk.2 so this extreme LG won't be needed.

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## Stephen Cohen

Krate M said:


> @sancho let's see what new information comes out of aeroindia.



We really need some information on MK 2


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## Krate M

Stephen Cohen said:


> We really need some information on MK 2


True dat. Apparently the specs for this have been frozen and design finalized. Let's hope that info comes out with more details.

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## Echo_419

Krate M said:


> True dat. Apparently the specs for this have been frozen and design finalized. Let's hope that info comes out with more details.



You have a link for the Specs frozed Claim


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## Krate M

Echo_419 said:


> You have a link for the Specs frozed Claim


Nope just rumors about this.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Tuesday, February 10, 2015*



The LCA Navy NP1's carrier compatibility test off the ski-jump in Goa last month yielded masses of valuable data for a team that hasn't been able to put the aircraft into the air even a fraction of the number of times it would have liked to by now. But while there was plenty to be at least somewhat cheered about, there were two major areas that the flight drew attention to. Two areas the team is focusing on fixing with all its resources:



1. The Control Law and Flight Control System (FCS) Software needs additional coding and updating to handle the higher performance of the platform. "_This will enable extracting the best performance of the aircraft in a safe manner as the margins are progressively reduced_," say sources on the team.

2. The second take-away was mechanical, and just as crucial: the NP1's nose landing gear extension routine was faster than predicted or expected. Sources on the team confirm that, "_Minor modifications to the nose landing gear are in progress and would be available on the aircraft by end Jan 15_."

3. Another lesson learned, according to team sources, is that design teams will need to be "even more pragmatic in keeping margins as excess reserves get compounded and could lead to load exceedence."

4. The team is also considering excessive airspeed to be something to look out for. "While on first appearances, excessive airspeed appears to be harmless, it could aggravate aircraft control problems if flight control failures are encountered," team sources said.

Once the 2 tangible fixes are complete, and operating procedures on the other two are in place, the scene shifts back to Goa in March for more ski jump flights, where the flight test team will work towards reducing margins to arrive at final performance levels -- the first final, or close to final operating parameters of the LCA Navy. "Also, it is planned to initiate activities towards arrested recovery starting with dummy approaches on the landing area, ‘taxi-in’ arrester hook engagements on to the arrester wire at the SBTF and final flight engagement," say team sources.

Questions have been raised over whether 'surprise' angle of attack and climb performance actually demonstrated problems with simulation studies, team sources said, "Extensive simulations had been made to predict landing gear loads and the behaviour of all other systems during the ski jump launch. The aircraft was extensively instrumented to enable validation of simulation. The landing gear loads and other system behaviour obtained from the actual ski jump launch were close to prediction."

*Series concludes tomorrow with Part 3: The LCA Navy Mk.2

LIVEFIST: PART 2: The Four 'Fixes' After LCA Navy's Ski-Jump Flight*

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## Krate M

I just noticed one small but very important thing.
The NPs have Nausena clearly written on them. A big reminder of the ownership of the program and pride of ownership of Navy.
It is ours, shown in plain bold visible text. Showing that this program is a part of Indian Navy.

Fills my heart with pride for the Navy.

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## Echo_419

Krate M said:


> Nope just rumors about this.



Thx anyway


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## skynet



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## Major Shaitan Singh

The Indian Navy funds 40% of the LCA-N fighter programme, and intends to purchase at least 46 LCA Navy Mk.2s, the more powerful and capable proposition based on the current Mk.1 platforms in flight test. Much more is known now about what the Mk.2 will really involve. But first a short dash back 12 years.

The LCA Navy programme was sanctioned in 2003. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which had been entrusted with converting the standard air force variant, imagined it would take six-seven years to convert the platform into a naval prototype. Amazingly, the team at the time officially noted that the changes to the aircraft would be restricted to 15%. As we now know, things turned out quite differently.

A Team LCA-N official explains, "_The major constraint of design space due to the existing LCA AF platform resulted in a sub-optimal design and compromises leading to the LCA Navy Mk-1 Variant being heavier than anticipated_."

Six years into the project, it was officially noted by the ADA after months of discussions with the Indian Navy, that the LCA Navy Mk.1 wouldn't meet all the customer's capability requirements. These 'shortfalls' were put down to the platform's 'sub-optimal design'. It became imperative that a significantly more powerful and capable Mk.2 of the LCA Navy would be the platform that the Indian Navy would spend its real procurement rupees on.

In 2011, the ADA displayed models of its proposed Mk.2 for the IAF and Indian Navy. Apart from a brief wishlist of performance enhancements, not very much was clear. And to be fair, the team itself was awaiting greater clarity at the time.

Officially, according to Team LCA-N, "This programme (the LCA Navy Mk.2) is envisaged to minimize the constraints of LCA Navy Mk-1 and would have significant changes in design to improve aerodynamics, landing gear & arrester hook optimization, structural design optimization, updated sensors, avionics and flight control system. The landing gear mass of the LCA-Navy Mk.2 aircraft is likely to be reduced by 200-250 kg, albeit being capable of a higher take-off mass."




*INTERFACE OF THE UTTAM RADAR & LCA Mk,2*
Mk.1 prototypes NP1 and NP2 are now firmly in flight test. Apart from the number of seats in their cockpits, there are other differences: the NP2 naval fighter prototype flies with a modified Israeli Elta EL/M-2023 multimode radar (MMR). Sources add, "In terms of aircraft performance the two Mk.1 prototypes are similar. In that sense, both the prototypes will contribute equally for the carrier compatibility tests from the SBTF. The focus on sensor and weapon capability demonstration will be on NP2."

The Mk.2 aims to sport the in-development L-273/Uttam (the project name, incidentally,revealed first on Livefist) active array fire control radar being put together by the DRDO's Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE). According to official literature, the radar, intended to also be retrofitted on the Mk.1 aircraft that enter service, modes include air-to-air multi-target detection and tracking, multi target air-to-air combat mode, high resolution raid assessment, high Resolution air-to-ground mapping (SAR mode), air to ground ranging, real beam mapping, doppler beam sharpening, ground moving target indication and tracking and terrain avoidance. In air-to-sea mode, sea search and multi target tracking, range signature and inverse synthetic aperture radar will apply. But that's just the radar.

The the No.5 prototype NP5 will be a Mk.1 twin-seat trainer prototype, the construction of which has already begin at HAL. The NP5 was proposed to save time and as a risk mitigation exercise using existing resources and funds.

The MoD is now all set to clear the third and fourth prototypes, NP3 & NP4, both to be single-seat fighter prototypes of the LCA Navy Mk.2, incorporating all airframe and platform changes, including aft fuselage changes to house the new, larger and more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 turbofan engine. Team LCA-N sources confirm that there will be changes in most sections of the airframe.




The Indian Navy funds 40% of the LCA-N fighter programme, and intends to purchase at least 46 LCA Navy Mk.2s, the more powerful and capable proposition based on the current Mk.1 platforms in flight test. Much more is known now about what the Mk.2 will really involve. But first a short dash back 12 years.

The LCA Navy programme was sanctioned in 2003. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which had been entrusted with converting the standard air force variant, imagined it would take six-seven years to convert the platform into a naval prototype. Amazingly, the team at the time officially noted that the changes to the aircraft would be restricted to 15%. As we now know, things turned out quite differently.

A Team LCA-N official explains, "_The major constraint of design space due to the existing LCA AF platform resulted in a sub-optimal design and compromises leading to the LCA Navy Mk-1 Variant being heavier than anticipated_."

Six years into the project, it was officially noted by the ADA after months of discussions with the Indian Navy, that the LCA Navy Mk.1 wouldn't meet all the customer's capability requirements. These 'shortfalls' were put down to the platform's 'sub-optimal design'. It became imperative that a significantly more powerful and capable Mk.2 of the LCA Navy would be the platform that the Indian Navy would spend its real procurement rupees on.

In 2011, the ADA displayed models of its proposed Mk.2 for the IAF and Indian Navy. Apart from a brief wishlist of performance enhancements, not very much was clear. And to be fair, the team itself was awaiting greater clarity at the time.

Officially, according to Team LCA-N, "This programme (the LCA Navy Mk.2) is envisaged to minimize the constraints of LCA Navy Mk-1 and would have significant changes in design to improve aerodynamics, landing gear & arrester hook optimization, structural design optimization, updated sensors, avionics and flight control system. The landing gear mass of the LCA-Navy Mk.2 aircraft is likely to be reduced by 200-250 kg, albeit being capable of a higher take-off mass."




*INTERFACE OF THE UTTAM RADAR & LCA Mk,2*
Mk.1 prototypes NP1 and NP2 are now firmly in flight test. Apart from the number of seats in their cockpits, there are other differences: the NP2 naval fighter prototype flies with a modified Israeli Elta EL/M-2023 multimode radar (MMR). Sources add, "In terms of aircraft performance the two Mk.1 prototypes are similar. In that sense, both the prototypes will contribute equally for the carrier compatibility tests from the SBTF. The focus on sensor and weapon capability demonstration will be on NP2."

The Mk.2 aims to sport the in-development L-273/Uttam (the project name, incidentally,revealed first on Livefist) active array fire control radar being put together by the DRDO's Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE). According to official literature, the radar, intended to also be retrofitted on the Mk.1 aircraft that enter service, modes include air-to-air multi-target detection and tracking, multi target air-to-air combat mode, high resolution raid assessment, high Resolution air-to-ground mapping (SAR mode), air to ground ranging, real beam mapping, doppler beam sharpening, ground moving target indication and tracking and terrain avoidance. In air-to-sea mode, sea search and multi target tracking, range signature and inverse synthetic aperture radar will apply. But that's just the radar.

The the No.5 prototype NP5 will be a Mk.1 twin-seat trainer prototype, the construction of which has already begin at HAL. The NP5 was proposed to save time and as a risk mitigation exercise using existing resources and funds.

The MoD is now all set to clear the third and fourth prototypes, NP3 & NP4, both to be single-seat fighter prototypes of the LCA Navy Mk.2, incorporating all airframe and platform changes, including aft fuselage changes to house the new, larger and more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 turbofan engine. Team LCA-N sources confirm that there will be changes in most sections of the airframe.

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## vsdave2302

Stephen Cohen said:


> We really need some information on MK 2


 
I am more interested in discussion of LCA MK1 performance improvement. I foresee 2 main shortfalls. Highest speed and STR. If tejas can hit Mach 1.8 and can achieve 18* STR, this plane should be a very good one. The reason identified are dragy large wing and intake design problem. We should work on this 2 areas to resolve these problems and make MK1 more acceptable. If we can resolve these 2 issues than same modifications shall go into Mk2 also and improve the performance also.


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## Stephen Cohen

vsdave2302 said:


> I am more interested in discussion of LCA MK1 performance improvement. I foresee 2 main shortfalls. Highest speed and STR. If tejas can hit Mach 1.8 and can achieve 18* STR, this plane should be a very good one. The reason identified are dragy large wing and intake design problem. We should work on this 2 areas to resolve these problems and make MK1 more acceptable. If we can resolve these 2 issues than same modifications shall go into Mk2 also and improve the performance also.



Saurav Jha's Blog : The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'

*The Mk-II design will specifically address the sustained turn rate (STR),* climb rate and transonic acceleration shortfalls of the Mk-I. The ASR requires a STR of 18 degrees (same as the F-16's) and Mk-II will close in on that. The climb rate will also be more or less satisfactorily reached. Transonic acceleration is expected to be realized fully. *Moreover the Mk-II airframe will certainly be able to reach and fly through Mach 1.8 in a dive.*


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## vsdave2302

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Tuesday, February 10, 2015*
> 
> 
> 
> The LCA Navy NP1's carrier compatibility test off the ski-jump in Goa last month yielded masses of valuable data for a team that hasn't been able to put the aircraft into the air even a fraction of the number of times it would have liked to by now. But while there was plenty to be at least somewhat cheered about, there were two major areas that the flight drew attention to. Two areas the team is focusing on fixing with all its resources:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Control Law and Flight Control System (FCS) Software needs additional coding and updating to handle the higher performance of the platform. "_This will enable extracting the best performance of the aircraft in a safe manner as the margins are progressively reduced_," say sources on the team.
> 
> 2. The second take-away was mechanical, and just as crucial: the NP1's nose landing gear extension routine was faster than predicted or expected. Sources on the team confirm that, "_Minor modifications to the nose landing gear are in progress and would be available on the aircraft by end Jan 15_."
> 
> 3. Another lesson learned, according to team sources, is that design teams will need to be "even more pragmatic in keeping margins as excess reserves get compounded and could lead to load exceedence."
> 
> 4. The team is also considering excessive airspeed to be something to look out for. "While on first appearances, excessive airspeed appears to be harmless, it could aggravate aircraft control problems if flight control failures are encountered," team sources said.
> Once the 2 tangible fixes are complete, and operating procedures on the other two are in place, the scene shifts back to Goa in March for more ski jump flights, where the flight test team will work towards reducing margins to arrive at final performance levels -- the first final, or close to final operating parameters of the LCA Navy. "Also, it is planned to initiate activities towards arrested recovery starting with dummy approaches on the landing area, ‘taxi-in’ arrester hook engagements on to the arrester wire at the SBTF and final flight engagement," say team sources.
> 
> Questions have been raised over whether 'surprise' angle of attack and climb performance actually demonstrated problems with simulation studies, team sources said, "Extensive simulations had been made to predict landing gear loads and the behaviour of all other systems during the ski jump launch. The aircraft was extensively instrumented to enable validation of simulation. The landing gear loads and other system behaviour obtained from the actual ski jump launch were close to prediction."
> 
> *Series concludes tomorrow with Part 3: The LCA Navy Mk.2
> 
> LIVEFIST: PART 2: The Four 'Fixes' After LCA Navy's Ski-Jump Flight*


 
@sancho,

All predictions must have been made on basis of Airforce tejas performance. Does this mean that There is some change in Naval MK2 which enhansed the performance of Naval MK2. Whether the same changes if made in Airforce Tejas shall improve its performance as well?

Dose this mean that it will fly faster or carry higher load or shall have higher STR etc? (Since the lift is high?)



Stephen Cohen said:


> Saurav Jha's Blog : The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'
> 
> *The Mk-II design will specifically address the sustained turn rate (STR),* climb rate and transonic acceleration shortfalls of the Mk-I. The ASR requires a STR of 18 degrees (same as the F-16's) and Mk-II will close in on that. The climb rate will also be more or less satisfactorily reached. Transonic acceleration is expected to be realized fully. *Moreover the Mk-II airframe will certainly be able to reach and fly through Mach 1.8 in a dive.*


 

Yes I know that. But it is in dive mode. i want that performance in normal flight. Plabnes like MKI, Mirage do Mach 2+ in normal flight. Mk2 shall have more powerful engine compare to mirage so it should do Mach 2+ also. Why it will have Mach 1.8 and that too in dive. That is why I say that we need to work on aerodynamics and engine integration and air intake.


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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> I am more interested in discussion of LCA MK1 performance improvement. I foresee 2 main shortfalls. Highest speed and STR. If tejas can hit Mach 1.8 and can achieve 18* STR, this plane should be a very good one. The reason identified are dragy large wing and intake design problem. We should work on this 2 areas to resolve these problems and make MK1 more acceptable. If we can resolve these 2 issues than same modifications shall go into Mk2 also and improve the performance also.



That's why the IAF wanted "some" more thrust and initially stated the need for around 90kN, but then the navy came in with their requirements and added many things and now we have to wait for a proper MK2 prototype to see what can be achieved and what not.



vsdave2302 said:


> @sancho,
> 
> All predictions must have been made on basis of Airforce tejas performance. Does this mean that There is some change in Naval MK2 which enhansed the performance of Naval MK2.



The first MK2's will be based on the IAF version, but the MK2 upgrade as such, will mainly include IN's requirements. That's why the airframe needs to be lengthened to include more fuel and most likely why the fuselage will be re-designed to include enough space to include the N-LCA gears, without the hump that we can see on the NP1 and 2, so a more aerodynamic design. These modifications however might be a burden for IAF, since they increase the base weight of the fighter, which counters the higher trust to some extend again. The crucial point will be, how much more fuel can be carried internally, because that decides how many external fuel tanks needs to be carried in each mission. If it's enough to just carry 1 centerline 725l fuel tank, instead of 2 x 1200l tanks at the wings, you will reduce drag to a good extend. 

The performance of the N-LCA will be even more tricky to evaluate, since from what we see now, it will be based on the twin seat version which alone adds more weight and drag by design. Add the weight of the navalisations and the higher operational limits of using it from short take off distances and possibly reduced payload can't really make it very capable.

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> That's why the IAF wanted "some" more thrust and initially stated the need for around 90kN, but then the navy came in with their requirements and added many things and now we have to wait for a proper MK2 prototype to see what can be achieved and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> The first MK2's will be based on the IAF version, but the MK2 upgrade as such, will mainly include IN's requirements. That's why the airframe needs to be lengthened to include more fuel and most likely why the fuselage will be re-designed to include enough space to include the N-LCA gears, without the hump that we can see on the NP1 and 2, so a more aerodynamic design. These modifications however might be a burden for IAF, since they increase the base weight of the fighter, which counters the higher trust to some extend again. The crucial point will be, how much more fuel can be carried internally, because that decides how many external fuel tanks needs to be carried in each mission. If it's enough to just carry 1 centerline 725l fuel tank, instead of 2 x 1200l tanks at the wings, you will reduce drag to a good extend.
> 
> The performance of the N-LCA will be even more tricky to evaluate, since from what we see now, it will be based on the twin seat version which alone adds more weight and drag by design. Add the weight of the navalisations and the higher operational limits of using it from short take off distances and possibly reduced payload can't really make it very capable.



Seems like a lot of Challenges lie ahead


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Seems like a lot of Challenges lie ahead



It is, but only because we made it more difficult than it needed to be. The whole NLCA nonsense had made the MK2 upgrade far more complicated and delayed and all that for nothing else than what we will do with the NP1 and 2 tech demonstrators anyway. It would be a disaster if the MK2 gets so heavy now because of IN's requirements, that the TWR or other performance requirements of IAF still won't be met.


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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


>



Mh 

ADA Brochure from Aero India 2011




Changes now seems to be:

- height reduced from 4.6 to 4.4m
- no weight reductions anymore!!! (my guess that the weight might even increase seems to be valid)
- IFR probe? (not sure if they have removed it, since it's now part of the MK1 FOC)
- MMR seems to be AESA now
- interestingly still nothing on IRST, which is quiet disappointing


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## Agent_47

@sancho how important is IRST for LCA/IAF ?


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> @sancho how important is IRST for LCA/IAF ?



One of the aims of LCA is to take operational tactics of the Mig 21 to the next level. IAF had shown good performance in operating the Migs in passive modes, with radar guidance provided by MKIs. LCA with even lower RCS, even better EW and passive sensors, next to improving AWACS capabilities of IAF, would then be the logical next step. 
I once even showed this with the same aim:





To use off the shelf systems of the Rafale to improve the LCA MK2 (and simplify it's development), for example the Thales FSO system with the IRST and TV channel, as well as the MICA (Maitri) IR. This combo of passive sensor and passive BVR missile, would allow the LCA to be used in passive mode, detect and track targets, visually ID the target at longer range than any comparable systems and then launch the missile before the target even knows that the LCA would be around.

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## sancho

*Official ADA video for Aero India 2015*

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## commander jain

@sancho any latest news about "AURA" ???


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## sancho

commander jain said:


> @sancho any latest news about "AURA" ???



No, that's a long shot and much dependent on other developments (Rustom H, engines, stealth design...).

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## Ind4Ever

sancho said:


> *Official ADA video for Aero India 2015*


 Beauty and the Beast ... Great machine will live for 100 years to tell her story . Amazing Light Combat Aircraft . Best of luck . Lots of love

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> One of the aims of LCA is to take operational tactics of the Mig 21 to the next level. IAF had shown good performance in operating the Migs in passive modes, with radar guidance provided by MKIs. LCA with even lower RCS, even better EW and passive sensors, next to improving AWACS capabilities of IAF, would then be the logical next step.
> I once even showed this with the same aim:
> View attachment 192538
> 
> 
> To use off the shelf systems of the Rafale to improve the LCA MK2 (and simplify it's development), for example the Thales FSO system with the IRST and TV channel, as well as the MICA (Maitri) IR. This combo of passive sensor and passive BVR missile, would allow the LCA to be used in passive mode, detect and track targets, visually ID the target at longer range than any comparable systems and then launch the missile before the target even knows that the LCA would be around.


I am assuming both aircrafts(target) are in passive mode here, Then how does lower RCS is important? Then why do we care about LCA with IRST when more capable MKI or MMRCA with IRST is available


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## Water Car Engineer

*Single Seat NLCA From DRDO 2015 Goa Show*

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*A Turnaround For India’s First Indigenous Fighter*

After almost 30 years of design and development, deliveries of India’s indigenous lightweight fighter, the Tejas, to the air force are finally underway. But achieving full operational capability, fielding a naval variant and developing a fully capable Mk. 2 version remain to be done.

In spite of the length of time, handover of the first Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) series-production Tejas—aircraft SP-1—to the Indian air force on Jan. 17 was hailed as an achievement. To accomplish this, the industry had to conquer hurdles related to U.S. sanctions over India’s nuclear testing that interrupted access to key suppliers in the middle of development, resulting in delays and cost increases.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program began in 1983 with a budget of around 5.6 billion rupees ($91 million), which has escalated to almost 250 billion rupees over the last three decades. Series-production aircraft may now cost 1.6 billion rupees each—still a fraction the price of a Western fighter.

SP-1 was delivered in the Initial Operation Clearance 2 (IOC-2) configuration released at the end of 2013. This addressed performance, readiness and weapons limitations associated with IOC-1, released in 2011. The upgraded aircraft is capable of high-angle-of-attack flight, faster turnarounds and deployment of R73E Archer infrared air-to-air missiles and 1,000-lb. laser-guided bombs in air-superiority and offensive air support missions.

A second series-production aircraft is in flight-testing, and the first three of the initial batch of six are expected to be delivered by June, with the remaining three likely to be handed over before the end of March 2016. HAL plans to produce six Tejas in fiscal April 2015-March 2016 and subsequently scale up to eight and then 16 aircraft per year.





The LCA Tejas flies over the Himalayas during Leh Winter trials in February 2014. Credit: Indian Aeronautical Development Agency


The air force is aiming to form its first squadron of 16-18 Tejas in three years’ time, based at Sulur in southern Tamil Nadu. The service has ordered an initial 40 Mk. 1 aircraft, 20 of which will be delivered in IOC-2 configuration. Final Operation Clearance (FOC) is now anticipated by year-end. HAL expects the air force ultimately to induct around 14 squadrons to replace approximately 250 MiG-21s still in its fleet.

LCA test pilot Grp. Capt. Suneeth Krishna says the first Tejas delivered to the air force is combat-ready. “The aircraft presented to the air force is a weaponized version. It is an all-weather aircraft and can handle cold, heat and mountainous conditions. It meets the requirements of any such aircraft in its class,” he says.

“The IOC-2 aircraft do not require major structural changes to be converted into FOC aircraft. Besides augmenting a few weapons capabilities, the upgrades are mostly in the software,” says Krishna. In a step toward FOC, a sixth prototype of the air force Tejas made its first flight last November. PV-6 is the final prototype leading to a series-production two-seat trainer and incorporates all of the modifications resulting from flight testing since 2001.

In January, the Tejas began testing an indigenous electronic-warfare (EW) suite developed by India’s Defense Avionics Research Establishment (DARE). “LCA is the first Indian fighter aircraft with the capability for both radar warning and jamming using unified EW technology. Over the coming months, we will be scheduling further sorties to evaluate the system in various signal scenarios,” says DARE Director J. Manjula.

The second prototype of a carrier-capable version being developed for the Indian navy, the single-seat aircraft NP-2, made its first flight on Feb. 7 from HAL’s airport in Bengaluru. The initial two-seat prototype, NP-1, first flew in April 2012 and in December logged the first takeoff from a ski-jump at the Shore-Based Tests Facility (SBTF) in Goa.

NP-1 was mostly grounded for the better part of a year following its maiden flight, to fix several structural and technical issues, mainly with the undercarriage. The weight of the landing gear had to be reduced and movement of the leading-edge vortex controls corrected. These movable surfaces were added to the delta-wing LCA to reduce carrier approach speed. NP-2 has a redesigned landing gear.

“[NP-2] addresses several systemic deficiencies observed while making progress on flight-test of NP-1. It incorporates most avionic hardware components promised to the customer,” says HAL Chairman T. Suvarna Raju. NP-2 has been designed to accept modifications incrementally for carrier-landing aids such as a new air-data computer, auto-throttle and external/internal angle-of-attack lights. 

The second prototype is the lead aircraft for integration of the arrestor hook, as well as Rafael Derby beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles and tactical data link. “The inclusion of NP-2 into the LCA flight-test stable is a significant milestone in the indigenous carrier-borne aircraft development program,” says Raju.

The LCA-Navy is India’s first effort to develop a carrier-borne fighter and is to be deployed on India’s indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, replacing the navy’s Sea Harriers and operating alongside MiG-29Ks. The ski-jump test last December showed the aircraft can get airborne from the carrier deck within 200 meters (660 ft.), compared with 1,000 meters for a conventional runway takeoff. LCA-Navy is heavier than the air force version and has a fuel-dump capability to reduce weight for arrested landings.

“The LCA-Navy is designed with stronger landing gear to absorb forces exerted by the ski-jump ramp during takeoff,” says K. Tamilmani, chief controller of aeronautics R&D at India’s Defense Research & Development Organization. A special flight-control law allows hands-free takeoff from the ramp, reducing pilot workload and automatically putting the aircraft on a climbing trajectory. A second phase of SBTF tests will involve arrested landings, he says.

At 8.5 tons, the Tejas is light for a single-engine multirole supersonic fighter, but it is heavier and lower performing than planned. So development has begun on the larger Mk. 2, with a more powerful General Electric F414/INS6 engine in place of the Mk. 1’s GE F404/INS20. GE Aviation says it will begin delivering F414s to India next year, with first flight of the Tejas Mk. 2 expected in 2017. 

A Turnaround For India’s First Indigenous Fighter | Defense content from Aviation Week

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## Supply&Demand



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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> I am assuming both aircrafts(target) are in passive mode here, Then how does lower RCS is important?


Not necessarily, since the target would need radar guidance of another aircraft too, if not, it is dependent on it's active radar.



Agent_47 said:


> Then why do we care about LCA with IRST when more capable MKI or MMRCA with IRST is available



Because IRST has only a limited range compared to radar, that's why you use the passive fighter in a forward position, while being less detectable and using passive sensors like RWR and IRST only. The aircraft with the longer range radar, will remain behind in a safe distance and just divert radar data.

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## ni8mare

sancho

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## GORKHALI

ni8mare said:


> sancho
> View attachment 192901


To me it look like more of telemetry equipments which they put to observe aircraft ergonomics and flight data.

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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> To use off the shelf systems of the Rafale to improve the LCA MK2 (and simplify it's development), for example the Thales FSO system with the IRST and TV channel, as well as the MICA (Maitri) IR. This combo of passive sensor and passive BVR missile, would allow the LCA to be used in passive mode, detect and track targets, visually ID the target at longer range than any comparable systems and then launch the missile before the target even knows that the LCA would be around.



Suppose the Rafale talks fail ; Then can we get these sub- systems for LCA

And if the French refuse are there any similar or better alternatives


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## Abingdonboy

ni8mare said:


> sancho
> View attachment 192901


That seems like telemetry equipment, I doubt whether the production MK.2 models will have such crude looking arrangements onboard.

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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> sancho
> View attachment 192901



Nice, missed that one, but we already know that the single seat version is meant to get more fuel:

Page Title

So this as the others mentioned should be more like a short term config for the NP2. We have to wait though to see how large the tank will be at the and and how far the visibility will be restricted.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Suppose the Rafale talks fail ; Then can we get these sub- systems for LCA



The FSO could still be licence produced via Samtel / Thales and we are trying to get the Maitri SAM missile based on the MICA anyway, but so far nothing hints on DRDO taking this advantage and they might look at a complete different system again.

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## Water Car Engineer




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## kurup

*A member kartik of BR who visited Aero India 2013 and had a chat with Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar, Test Pilot of the Tejas program and Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj (Deputy Project Director, NLC wrothe these in BR ,*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kartik wrote:
Attended my first Aero India this Saturday. I won’t describe the difficulties in getting into the show, but once I did, it was quite alright. The highlight for me was the conversations I had with Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar, Test Pilot of the Tejas program and Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj (Deputy Project Director, NLCA). I was lucky to spot Mao sir alone and walked up to him, introduced myself and spoke of my association with BRF and then we had a conversation on the Tejas program for half an hour..he was incredibly frank, friendly, didn’t hold back any facts and only left when he got a call from someone..here are the salient points of our conversation, some of which we already know but am listing it anyway.

- Tejas LSP6 is the platform on which the spin chute will be integrated but it’s not here as yet. Will get done before FOC.
- Tejas Mk1 has achieved the IOC AoA limit of 22 deg and they will go a couple of degrees further in tests, when the spin chutes are integrated on LSP6. This is to ensure that they know that the airplane is safe even at higher alpha although the FBW will restrict it to the AoA limit for FOC for service pilots (which is higher than 22 deg, but he didn’t say how much)
- Mao Sir scoffed at the suggestion that the engine was choking at higher alpha. He said there is no such thing, but rather because it was designed initially for the Kaveri’s airflow and had to redesign it for the F-404. They have already tried various intakes on the LCA, with/without spring mounted doors on the intakes. 
- Tejas MK2 will get an approx 10mm increase in diameter for the increased air flow requirement of the F-414 (Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj confirmed this as well). Too small a difference to be visible to the naked eye for us jingos. The spring mounted doors may also be bigger if needed
- When asked about the STR and ITR rates of the Tejas, he simply smiled and said “it’s enough, let me put it that way”. When I queried him further, asking about the ASR that the IAF had set based on the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29’s STR and ITR, his smile vanished and he got serious. He said that when people look at 10 different brochures and come up with requirements, without looking at whether meeting all those requirements is even possible for ANY one fighter, they set themselves and the program up for failure. He was very frank about this, stating that even those brochure specs were just that- brochure specs that even those famed fighters sometimes don’t meet. But they were taken as benchmarks anyway and then, without even bothering to look at the technological base in India, the ASR was prepared. 
- He was full of praise for the handling of the Tejas. It’s a true delight to fly and both he and Grp Cpt Suneet Krishna have tremendous confidence in the aircraft itself. He said that they both push the aircraft to its current limits without any worry since the FCS is very good. He did mention that they didn’t push the Tejas Mk1 to its limits at the airshow but just wanted to display that it is maneuverable enough. 
- When I asked him whether the Navy fully backs the NLCA program, he laughed and said “I’m here, aren’t I?”. So all in all, it appears that the IN is backing the program fully
- NP1 hasn’t flown more than 4 flights because they’re re-designing some of the structures on board. This is the additional strengthening required for handling the thumping that is a carrier landing. The landing gear is being re-designed since its overweight and NP2 is going to fly soon.
- I brought up the point he made at AI-2011 about how the Tejas should’ve started as a carrier variant and then gone on to the IAF variant. He seemed genuinely happy that someone had remembered that point of his and described the main issue with the NLCA NP1. The issue as he described it was that the LCA didn’t have a central keel to pass the structural loads to, something he said that the AMCA won’t face since it’s a twin engine fighter. This meant that they had to put new attachment points which aren’t the ideal solution and result in the bulky appearance of the current landing gear. 
- I was going to ask him about the AMCA naval variant and he said that currently there is no plan for it.

At this point he had to leave and I was disappointed since I hadn’t gotten to discussing anything about the Elta 2032/MMR, Litening LDP and the weapons on the Mk1 such as the Derby/Python V/R-77/Astra and Sudarshan..

Kartik wrote:
Next, I went to the ADA stall and just asked aloud if anyone could talk to me about the Mk2. A gentleman in a suit stepped up and said “Yes, what do you want to know about it? Which one, the IAF Mk2 or the Navy Mk2?” and I said “IAF Mk2” and he laughed and said “oh, you disappointed me, I was hoping you’d say Navy Mk2”..



Turned out, it was Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program..I was blown away by this gentleman. Here was one of the top decision makers of the Tejas program and he was warm, friendly, forthcoming and genuinely interested in talking about the program without even asking me what my background was (till much later in my conversation). He was an engineer on the Sea Harrier, having served on the Viraat. Said he was rookie when Cmde Maolankar commanded the squadron. The salient points of the conversation with him were:

- The Tejas Mk2 is being lengthened by 0.5m only and not 1m as that big gasbag Prasun Sengupta was fibbing about. We really ought to never take him seriously at all. The reason cited were CG change primarily. 
- F-414 was primarily an IN requirement. It turns out that the IAF was fine with the F-404IN20 engine on the Mk1. They jumped on the IN’s requirement for a higher thrust engine and requested the IAF Mk2 variant.
- The fuselage on the Mk2 will be slightly wider as well due to the larger diameter of the F-414 engine. This will be used to put onboard additional fuel
- The widening of the fuselage will push out the wings a bit, thus increasing wing span. Otherwise no increase in wing span as such. It doesn’t need it, since the wing area is massive already
- Additional fuel will be required primarily to offset the additional weight (he said approx. 200 kg additional) and higher SFC of the F-414 engine. So, it appears that the Tejas Mk2’s range may not go up significantly over that of the Mk1. 
- He confirmed that the intake size will go up by approx. 10 mm for the Mk2.
- There is a LOT of work that is required to be done due to engine change. This is something jingos must keep in mind since jingos keep asking if this or that engine can be used or not on a platform..pumps, motors, fuel supply lines, nearly everything associated with the engine requires re-design due to an engine change due to higher fuel flow rates for a larger engine and the different specs of the power generation on board. Plus, the higher weight means localized structural strengthening as well, all of which takes time
- N-LCA will be an out and out 9G fighter. He was categorical about this.
_*- NP1 trainer doesn’t have a radar- the radome is used for carrying avionics. He said he was more interested in the NP2 since it was the first fighter and was going to carry the same radar as that on the Sea Harrier. I tried to quiz him on this because the Elta 2032 on the Sea Harrier is not the same as the Elta 2032/MMR on the Tejas Mk1, but he didn’t stop what he was saying. *_
_*- NP2 is basically similar to the NP1, but with the rear seater’s canopy painted over (he said that! I asked if it was faired over and he said no, just painted over). The rear seater’s space will carry avionics (that were put into the radome on the NP1) and additional fuel tank.*_
- NP1’s LEVCONS will be initially having 3 positions- 10 deg, 20 deg and 30 deg, just like flap settings. I tried to ask him if the LEVCONS would be just lift generating surfaces or that they could be used as additional control surfaces by the FBW FCS to increase turn rates but he said that they were primarily required for higher lift when landing and taking off
- They’re working on the hands-free take-off for the N-LCA. He said that it was no big deal and they’ll do it for sure
- Mk2 is to get bigger MFD displays, but he said that even the ones on the Mk1 are actually good and possibly adequate 
- One piece of news that will get some jingos happy- he said that he has asked CSIO Chandigarh to develop a frameless HUD instead of the current one. It’ll feature higher FoV and its easier to view through since there is no frame obstructing the pilot’s view.
- DASH HMDS from Elbit for the N-LCA as well. I had initially thought they’d go with the Thales Top Owl-F as on the MiG-29K
- Just as I suspected, I asked him if the current drop tank is transonic- he confirmed that it is. A supersonic tank is being developed to carry about 200 gal. (~750 ltrs)
- Also confirmed that there is nothing wrong with the centerline fuel tank – since we almost never see Tejas Mk1 carry a centerline fuel tank in place of the innermost wing pylon drop tanks. If required, Mk1s can carry drop tank on the centerline station also
- Regarding IFR, it is Cobham that is going to work on it. Asked if it’s a fixed probe, retractable or semi-retractable, it was confirmed to be semi-retractable, like that on the MiG-29UPG. I asked about the lack of internal volume on such a small fighter for even a semi-retractable probe and he said that its going to be a small probe, and they’ll manage to find the space for it
- No OBOGS on Tejas Mk1 or NP1. It’ll be there from Mk2 onwards. Designed by DEBEL and certified by CEMILAC
- Regarding the landing gear, he said it was 1600 kgs over the Tejas Mk1’s landing gear weight initially!! They designed it per MilSpec which was too conservative. Also, in addition to the general Factor of Safety that is needed for Ultimate Loads, they added another Factor of Safety of 1, for a total of 2.5 because it was being done for the first time in India and they were concerned about the design..and used maraging steel which was heavy.
- He clearly said that before the NP1 first flight, none of the OEMs even believed that this program had any future and no one cooperated with them when asked for help. Then, when NP1 flew, they were interested in helping out.
- US Navy is now consulting with them on where to reduce weight, what other materials to use. All the leg work is done here itself though, and no work is being done by foreign OEMs. They are confident of shaving off 1000 kgs and bringing it to 600 kgs over the LCA AF version’s landing gear weight for the N-LCA
- On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and bring it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel
- Regarding radar, he said that they are pretty confident about it. The reason is that they’re using the same Elta 2032 as on the Sea Harrier! Since they’ve already qualified that radar for the Derby, he was pretty confident about the Derby on the N-LCA. Asked about the Python-V he said that it’s the R-73 that’ll be the WVR weapon..when I asked him how come the Python V was shown on the mockup outside, he said it’s just a mockup. Wasn’t very clear about this
- Shockingly about the radar, when I asked about what increased range one might get with the Elta 2032 since the diameter of the antenna on the N-LCA will be bigger than that on the LUSH SHar, he replied that there is no increase in range, its more than sufficient..I asked him specifically again that “really same detection range?” and he said yes. Again not very clear about this
- When quizzed about AESA for the N-LCA Mk2, he said that for now it’s the same Elta 2032 and Cmde Mao had recently even gone to Israel to test the radar that will be used on the N-LCA Mk2. Here, he mentioned that “if you get anything from Israel, just take it. Their equipment is very good”. Then went on to mention how the Barak was tested on the Viraat and was successful on its very first trial with 2 missiles fired. The first hit the target and the second hit its debris!
- He confirmed that the anti-ship missile for the N-LCA is going to be the Kh-35E, similar to the MiG-29K. Laughed when recollecting how poor the Sea Eagle was as an AShM. 
- Primary role envisaged for the N-LCA is that of CAP and Fleet Defence, replacing the Sea Harrier. He was quite dismissive about the P-3C Orion threat (jokingly saying that to shoot that down, a gun is enough!), but was primarily concerned about the cruise missile and anti-ship missile threat to the Carrier. But he mentioned that a Carrier Battle Group consists of several rings of protection for the carrier, and that the carrier will get warned about any possible airborne threat several hundred kms before it even approached it. With that much warning, a N-LCA could dash to the edge of the fleet and take on the threat. 
- When I asked him if shooting down sub-sonic anti-ship missiles with on-board missiles was a possible scenario for the N-LCA, he replied in the affirmative
- When he mentioned this, I asked him how good the Elta 2032 was with regards to dealing with sea clutter and he said that its very good. 
- NP2 is currently already going through integration tests. Will likely fly in June or July if no issues are found. 
- NP1 has given them a lot of data for how the platform behaves in 4 flights itself
- Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers

I had to leave at this point since my friend who I’d met after 6 years was in a hurry to leave so we could escape the impending traffic snarl. Thanked the Cmdr profusely and got his card as well. I asked for some other brochures on the Mk2 and he said that he could give me a soft copy of it. To date, I’ve never had so much come from a single conversation at any airshow or business show. Very competent fellows are working on these programs. They need our support and encouragement. Those who are constantly piling it on them, with negative reports are basically doing this nation a great dis-service. Criticize the organization perhaps for its failings, but those who are working on these programs are to be commended and encouraged.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@sancho ,@Abingdonboy , @GORKHALI , @ni8mare 

What he said about NP1 and NP2 was absolutely right .....

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## Ind4Ever

kurup said:


> *A member kartik of BR who visited Aero India 2013 and had a chat with Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar, Test Pilot of the Tejas program and Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj (Deputy Project Director, NLC wrothe these in BR ,*
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kartik wrote:
> Attended my first Aero India this Saturday. I won’t describe the difficulties in getting into the show, but once I did, it was quite alright. The highlight for me was the conversations I had with Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar, Test Pilot of the Tejas program and Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj (Deputy Project Director, NLCA). I was lucky to spot Mao sir alone and walked up to him, introduced myself and spoke of my association with BRF and then we had a conversation on the Tejas program for half an hour..he was incredibly frank, friendly, didn’t hold back any facts and only left when he got a call from someone..here are the salient points of our conversation, some of which we already know but am listing it anyway.
> 
> - Tejas LSP6 is the platform on which the spin chute will be integrated but it’s not here as yet. Will get done before FOC.
> - Tejas Mk1 has achieved the IOC AoA limit of 22 deg and they will go a couple of degrees further in tests, when the spin chutes are integrated on LSP6. This is to ensure that they know that the airplane is safe even at higher alpha although the FBW will restrict it to the AoA limit for FOC for service pilots (which is higher than 22 deg, but he didn’t say how much)
> - Mao Sir scoffed at the suggestion that the engine was choking at higher alpha. He said there is no such thing, but rather because it was designed initially for the Kaveri’s airflow and had to redesign it for the F-404. They have already tried various intakes on the LCA, with/without spring mounted doors on the intakes.
> - Tejas MK2 will get an approx 10mm increase in diameter for the increased air flow requirement of the F-414 (Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj confirmed this as well). Too small a difference to be visible to the naked eye for us jingos. The spring mounted doors may also be bigger if needed
> - When asked about the STR and ITR rates of the Tejas, he simply smiled and said “it’s enough, let me put it that way”. When I queried him further, asking about the ASR that the IAF had set based on the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29’s STR and ITR, his smile vanished and he got serious. He said that when people look at 10 different brochures and come up with requirements, without looking at whether meeting all those requirements is even possible for ANY one fighter, they set themselves and the program up for failure. He was very frank about this, stating that even those brochure specs were just that- brochure specs that even those famed fighters sometimes don’t meet. But they were taken as benchmarks anyway and then, without even bothering to look at the technological base in India, the ASR was prepared.
> - He was full of praise for the handling of the Tejas. It’s a true delight to fly and both he and Grp Cpt Suneet Krishna have tremendous confidence in the aircraft itself. He said that they both push the aircraft to its current limits without any worry since the FCS is very good. He did mention that they didn’t push the Tejas Mk1 to its limits at the airshow but just wanted to display that it is maneuverable enough.
> - When I asked him whether the Navy fully backs the NLCA program, he laughed and said “I’m here, aren’t I?”. So all in all, it appears that the IN is backing the program fully
> - NP1 hasn’t flown more than 4 flights because they’re re-designing some of the structures on board. This is the additional strengthening required for handling the thumping that is a carrier landing. The landing gear is being re-designed since its overweight and NP2 is going to fly soon.
> - I brought up the point he made at AI-2011 about how the Tejas should’ve started as a carrier variant and then gone on to the IAF variant. He seemed genuinely happy that someone had remembered that point of his and described the main issue with the NLCA NP1. The issue as he described it was that the LCA didn’t have a central keel to pass the structural loads to, something he said that the AMCA won’t face since it’s a twin engine fighter. This meant that they had to put new attachment points which aren’t the ideal solution and result in the bulky appearance of the current landing gear.
> - I was going to ask him about the AMCA naval variant and he said that currently there is no plan for it.
> 
> At this point he had to leave and I was disappointed since I hadn’t gotten to discussing anything about the Elta 2032/MMR, Litening LDP and the weapons on the Mk1 such as the Derby/Python V/R-77/Astra and Sudarshan..
> 
> Kartik wrote:
> Next, I went to the ADA stall and just asked aloud if anyone could talk to me about the Mk2. A gentleman in a suit stepped up and said “Yes, what do you want to know about it? Which one, the IAF Mk2 or the Navy Mk2?” and I said “IAF Mk2” and he laughed and said “oh, you disappointed me, I was hoping you’d say Navy Mk2”..
> 
> 
> 
> Turned out, it was Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program..I was blown away by this gentleman. Here was one of the top decision makers of the Tejas program and he was warm, friendly, forthcoming and genuinely interested in talking about the program without even asking me what my background was (till much later in my conversation). He was an engineer on the Sea Harrier, having served on the Viraat. Said he was rookie when Cmde Maolankar commanded the squadron. The salient points of the conversation with him were:
> 
> - The Tejas Mk2 is being lengthened by 0.5m only and not 1m as that big gasbag Prasun Sengupta was fibbing about. We really ought to never take him seriously at all. The reason cited were CG change primarily.
> - F-414 was primarily an IN requirement. It turns out that the IAF was fine with the F-404IN20 engine on the Mk1. They jumped on the IN’s requirement for a higher thrust engine and requested the IAF Mk2 variant.
> - The fuselage on the Mk2 will be slightly wider as well due to the larger diameter of the F-414 engine. This will be used to put onboard additional fuel
> - The widening of the fuselage will push out the wings a bit, thus increasing wing span. Otherwise no increase in wing span as such. It doesn’t need it, since the wing area is massive already
> - Additional fuel will be required primarily to offset the additional weight (he said approx. 200 kg additional) and higher SFC of the F-414 engine. So, it appears that the Tejas Mk2’s range may not go up significantly over that of the Mk1.
> - He confirmed that the intake size will go up by approx. 10 mm for the Mk2.
> - There is a LOT of work that is required to be done due to engine change. This is something jingos must keep in mind since jingos keep asking if this or that engine can be used or not on a platform..pumps, motors, fuel supply lines, nearly everything associated with the engine requires re-design due to an engine change due to higher fuel flow rates for a larger engine and the different specs of the power generation on board. Plus, the higher weight means localized structural strengthening as well, all of which takes time
> - N-LCA will be an out and out 9G fighter. He was categorical about this.
> _*- NP1 trainer doesn’t have a radar- the radome is used for carrying avionics. He said he was more interested in the NP2 since it was the first fighter and was going to carry the same radar as that on the Sea Harrier. I tried to quiz him on this because the Elta 2032 on the Sea Harrier is not the same as the Elta 2032/MMR on the Tejas Mk1, but he didn’t stop what he was saying.
> - NP2 is basically similar to the NP1, but with the rear seater’s canopy painted over (he said that! I asked if it was faired over and he said no, just painted over). The rear seater’s space will carry avionics (that were put into the radome on the NP1) and additional fuel tank.*_
> - NP1’s LEVCONS will be initially having 3 positions- 10 deg, 20 deg and 30 deg, just like flap settings. I tried to ask him if the LEVCONS would be just lift generating surfaces or that they could be used as additional control surfaces by the FBW FCS to increase turn rates but he said that they were primarily required for higher lift when landing and taking off
> - They’re working on the hands-free take-off for the N-LCA. He said that it was no big deal and they’ll do it for sure
> - Mk2 is to get bigger MFD displays, but he said that even the ones on the Mk1 are actually good and possibly adequate
> - One piece of news that will get some jingos happy- he said that he has asked CSIO Chandigarh to develop a frameless HUD instead of the current one. It’ll feature higher FoV and its easier to view through since there is no frame obstructing the pilot’s view.
> - DASH HMDS from Elbit for the N-LCA as well. I had initially thought they’d go with the Thales Top Owl-F as on the MiG-29K
> - Just as I suspected, I asked him if the current drop tank is transonic- he confirmed that it is. A supersonic tank is being developed to carry about 200 gal. (~750 ltrs)
> - Also confirmed that there is nothing wrong with the centerline fuel tank – since we almost never see Tejas Mk1 carry a centerline fuel tank in place of the innermost wing pylon drop tanks. If required, Mk1s can carry drop tank on the centerline station also
> - Regarding IFR, it is Cobham that is going to work on it. Asked if it’s a fixed probe, retractable or semi-retractable, it was confirmed to be semi-retractable, like that on the MiG-29UPG. I asked about the lack of internal volume on such a small fighter for even a semi-retractable probe and he said that its going to be a small probe, and they’ll manage to find the space for it
> - No OBOGS on Tejas Mk1 or NP1. It’ll be there from Mk2 onwards. Designed by DEBEL and certified by CEMILAC
> - Regarding the landing gear, he said it was 1600 kgs over the Tejas Mk1’s landing gear weight initially!! They designed it per MilSpec which was too conservative. Also, in addition to the general Factor of Safety that is needed for Ultimate Loads, they added another Factor of Safety of 1, for a total of 2.5 because it was being done for the first time in India and they were concerned about the design..and used maraging steel which was heavy.
> - He clearly said that before the NP1 first flight, none of the OEMs even believed that this program had any future and no one cooperated with them when asked for help. Then, when NP1 flew, they were interested in helping out.
> - US Navy is now consulting with them on where to reduce weight, what other materials to use. All the leg work is done here itself though, and no work is being done by foreign OEMs. They are confident of shaving off 1000 kgs and bringing it to 600 kgs over the LCA AF version’s landing gear weight for the N-LCA
> - On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and bring it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel
> - Regarding radar, he said that they are pretty confident about it. The reason is that they’re using the same Elta 2032 as on the Sea Harrier! Since they’ve already qualified that radar for the Derby, he was pretty confident about the Derby on the N-LCA. Asked about the Python-V he said that it’s the R-73 that’ll be the WVR weapon..when I asked him how come the Python V was shown on the mockup outside, he said it’s just a mockup. Wasn’t very clear about this
> - Shockingly about the radar, when I asked about what increased range one might get with the Elta 2032 since the diameter of the antenna on the N-LCA will be bigger than that on the LUSH SHar, he replied that there is no increase in range, its more than sufficient..I asked him specifically again that “really same detection range?” and he said yes. Again not very clear about this
> - When quizzed about AESA for the N-LCA Mk2, he said that for now it’s the same Elta 2032 and Cmde Mao had recently even gone to Israel to test the radar that will be used on the N-LCA Mk2. Here, he mentioned that “if you get anything from Israel, just take it. Their equipment is very good”. Then went on to mention how the Barak was tested on the Viraat and was successful on its very first trial with 2 missiles fired. The first hit the target and the second hit its debris!
> - He confirmed that the anti-ship missile for the N-LCA is going to be the Kh-35E, similar to the MiG-29K. Laughed when recollecting how poor the Sea Eagle was as an AShM.
> - Primary role envisaged for the N-LCA is that of CAP and Fleet Defence, replacing the Sea Harrier. He was quite dismissive about the P-3C Orion threat (jokingly saying that to shoot that down, a gun is enough!), but was primarily concerned about the cruise missile and anti-ship missile threat to the Carrier. But he mentioned that a Carrier Battle Group consists of several rings of protection for the carrier, and that the carrier will get warned about any possible airborne threat several hundred kms before it even approached it. With that much warning, a N-LCA could dash to the edge of the fleet and take on the threat.
> - When I asked him if shooting down sub-sonic anti-ship missiles with on-board missiles was a possible scenario for the N-LCA, he replied in the affirmative
> - When he mentioned this, I asked him how good the Elta 2032 was with regards to dealing with sea clutter and he said that its very good.
> - NP2 is currently already going through integration tests. Will likely fly in June or July if no issues are found.
> - NP1 has given them a lot of data for how the platform behaves in 4 flights itself
> - Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers
> 
> I had to leave at this point since my friend who I’d met after 6 years was in a hurry to leave so we could escape the impending traffic snarl. Thanked the Cmdr profusely and got his card as well. I asked for some other brochures on the Mk2 and he said that he could give me a soft copy of it. To date, I’ve never had so much come from a single conversation at any airshow or business show. Very competent fellows are working on these programs. They need our support and encouragement. Those who are constantly piling it on them, with negative reports are basically doing this nation a great dis-service. Criticize the organization perhaps for its failings, but those who are working on these programs are to be commended and encouraged.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> @sancho ,@Abingdonboy , @GORKHALI , @ni8mare
> 
> What he said about NP1 and NP2 was absolutely right .....


Looks like Navy showing great interest over Tejas-N than IAF . Some statement like let them get Rafale then let them ask for changes they will know how hard it is .... Then another point like IN opted for F414-GE-INS6 but IAF was satisfied with F404 . But now they also want to have F414 for the AF variants ... 

This show the lack interest shown by IAF towards home grown fighters . No wonder we had IAF chief like Mr. Brown who are in big mess for corruption deals . 

Navy is doing great job . And very important and full filling interview by this guys .... Respect .... Hope IN continue its great work ...

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## ni8mare

@sancho @Abingdonboy @Ind4Ever GORKHALI kurup
what they have done to NLCA?

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## Ind4Ever

ni8mare said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @Ind4Ever GORKHALI kurup
> what they have done to NLCA?
> View attachment 193121


Looks like we have repositioned Landing gear On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and brought it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. As Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program said The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel .

The air intake also to be enlarged by 10mm for MK2 more over due to larger furl intake arrangements for F414-GE-INS6 these changes can be seen ... 


Nice Picture . But only thing I was disappointed when I came to know that range won't be increased much when compared to MK1

Due to increase in diameter of engine the centerline has to be stretched a bit .But wing span is same .

And its not Conformal tank . I think


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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Looks like Navy showing great interest over Tejas-N than IAF . Some statement like let them get Rafale then let them ask for changes they will know how hard it is .... Then another point like IN opted for F414-GE-INS6 but IAF was satisfied with F404 . But now they also want to have F414 for the AF variants ...
> 
> This show the lack interest shown by IAF towards home grown fighters . No wonder we had IAF chief like Mr. Brown who are in big mess for corruption deals .


I think these are the wrong conclusions to draw from what he said. The IAF may have been happy/happier with the F404 (don't know how true this is ) but the IN wanting the more powerful F414 because inherently the thrust requirements of the IN are far greater given they will be operating from carriers. As for the comment about the Rafale, the same can be said for the IN's mainstay fighter the MiG-29K, neither force is in a position to adopt the LCA as their mainstay fighter given the high requirements and the threats India faces. 

I'll agree that the IN's project management is far, FAR superior to the IAF's and this has proven to be the case in many projects.

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## Abingdonboy

Don't know if this has been posted here:

Scribd


HAL LCA Aero India 2015 brochure, well worth going through.

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## sancho

Ind4Ever said:


> Looks like Navy showing great interest over Tejas-N than IAF . Some statement like let them get Rafale then let them ask for changes they will know how hard it is ....



=>



> *LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours*
> 
> "*It may not be what we want, but it is our own aircraft,*" says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy in an interview to FORCE magazine. He was asked how effective the LCA Navy would be for a carrier-based role given that it "only an eight ton platform". The officer's response: "*I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale*._ But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. _*LCA Navy will remain a modest platform with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms.*_ Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets_."



LIVEFIST: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA

The navy is only happy about the fact that they can use N-LCA as a tech demonstrator to create an own side of indigenous carrier fighter know how in the industry and the fact that they can modify the fighter as they need it. But that doesn't mean the fighter will be capable enough for the tasks that lies ahead of them. They might not be able to modify a Rafale or even the Mig 29K as much as N-LCA, but there is hardly any doubt about which fighter they will prefer in war times.

The downside of this side development however is, that it made the LCA project as a whole far more complicated and caused additional delays.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> =>
> 
> 
> 
> LIVEFIST: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA
> 
> The navy is only happy about the fact that they can use N-LCA as a tech demonstrator to create an own side of indigenous carrier fighter know how in the industry and the fact that they can modify the fighter as they need it. But that doesn't mean the fighter will be capable enough for the tasks that lies ahead of them. They might not be able to modify a Rafale or even the Mig 29K as much as N-LCA, but there is hardly any doubt about which fighter they will prefer in war times.
> 
> The downside of this side development however is, that it made the LCA project as a whole far more complicated and caused additional delays.


True but knowledge is never wasted, the know how the IN test team and the ADA/NFTC are gaining in developing and testing a carrier fighter cannot be understated. Few nations have this kind of capability (one could argue not even China) and this is something to be proud of for sure.

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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> what they have done to NLCA?
> View attachment 193121



Nice find, what's the original source? The change of the fuselage to integrate the modified gear and not have these bumbs that we can see on the NP1 and 2 was reported before, but it's interesting to see that they seem to widen it below the wings. Can't wait to see the final look.
Also interesting that I guess wrt fuel and fuel tanks seems to fit too. Addintial internal fuel + centerline fuel tank, now we only need to see how much fuel they can carry in this config and what effect the increased weight will have on that.


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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> it made the LCA project as a whole far more complicated and caused additional delays.



The IAF LCA has not been held up or delayed by the NLCA
They are both parallel efforts 

On the other hand the NAVY was first to ask for GE 414 
The IAF latched on to it and MK 2 was conceptualised


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> *True but knowledge is never wasted*, the know how the IN test team and the ADA/NFTC are gaining in developing and testing a carrier fighter cannot be understated. *Few nations have this kind of capability* (one could argue not even China) and this is something to be proud of for sure.



Of course not, but to gain knowledge, all we need is the NP1 and NP2, but no complete newly developed N-LCA MK2, with most of the LCA MK2 upgrades being dependent on IN requirements. 

Take LCA MK1 FOC, add an AESA, the with a 90kN RD93MK or EJ200 + TVC for IAF and when the first prototype of this modified version is available, start the N-LCA tech demo program!
The result would had been...

...a faster MK2 developed with less changes compared to the MK1
...a more capable IAF version with less weight and more flight performance
...a tech demo program, that is not distracting the main LCA development and still give us all the knowledge we need in the naval field

It's just poor project management and that even for the same reason you brought up, to say that we have achieve something that only a few nations have, not to develop something actually capable.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy 

By NEXT Valentine day ; we will be TOTALLY in love with the LCA

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## kurup

sancho said:


> Nice find, what's the original source? The change of the fuselage to integrate the modified gear and not have these bumbs that we can see on the NP1 and 2 was reported before, but it's interesting to see that they seem to widen it below the wings. Can't wait to see the final look.
> Also interesting that I guess wrt fuel and fuel tanks seems to fit too. Addintial internal fuel + centerline fuel tank, now we only need to see how much fuel they can carry in this config and what effect the increased weight will have on that.



Source is the brochure for Tejas from Aero India 2015 .

LCA Tejas brochure ,

LIVEFIST: LCA Tejas: The Official 2015 Update For #AeroIndia


LCA Navy brochure ,

LIVEFIST: LCA Navy: The Official 2015 Update For #AeroIndia

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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


>



 A more colorful IOC brochure, not much new right?

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## kurup

Why is that Mk1 is limited to 8g ??


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

kurup said:


> Why is that Mk1 is limited to 8g ??



Those are the development goals for the FOC.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> Those are the development goals for the FOC.



Which means 8g has not been achieved yet .

Lets say they will achieve it for FOC .

But my question still stands , most modern fighters can reach 9g while Tejas is limited to 8g .... why ??


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Which means 8g has not been achieved yet .
> 
> Lets say they will achieve it for FOC .
> 
> But my question still stands , most modern fighters can reach 9g while Tejas is limited to 8g .... why ??



Nope, the reports around IOC 2 stated 6 to 7G and 22 to 24° AoA, which they need to improve. *Earlier specboards showed 9G as the limit too*, so this might be one of the performance limitations of the MK1, that needs to be fixed in the MK2.

P.S. ADA specboards from Aero India 2011 and from their website:

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## sancho

ni8mare said:


> sancho
> View attachment 192901



Just went through the new brochures and might get an idea about the fuel tank now, because it seems like the fuel tank is added below the telemetry equipments:






Marked:

- refuelling probe
- new fuel tank within the cockpit section
- new fuel tank in the extended airframe
- wing fuel tanks
- centerline fuel tank (most likely 725l)

And as I assumed, the idea is to add enough internal fuel, to just use a single additional centerline fuel tank, compared to 2 x wingfuel tanks on the LCA MK1 versions. That free's wingstations to carry a full set of 4 x AAMs + 2 x bombs or anti ship missiles.

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## Bratva

kurup said:


> Why is that Mk1 is limited to 8g ??



To maintain the structural integrity.


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## Sri

Looks like both the versions LCA MK2 and NLCA MK2 are completely different A/Cs. Both have quite diff dimensions.
Official LCA Tejas Brochure 2015
Official LCA Navy Brochure 2015

Courtesy Karan BRF.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> Nope, the reports around IOC 2 stated 6 to 7G and 22 to 24° AoA, which they need to improve. *Earlier specboards showed 9G as the limit too*, so this might be one of the performance limitations of the MK1, that needs to be fixed in the MK2.
> 
> P.S. ADA specboards from Aero India 2011 and from their website:
> View attachment 193185
> View attachment 193186



What will be drawback of limiting to 8g than 9g ??



Bratva said:


> To maintain the structural integrity.



So if it goes to 9g , the structure will disintegrate ??


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## sancho

kurup said:


> What will be drawback of limiting to 8g than 9g ??



It will not be able to do the full range of maneuvers, since the FCS limits the pilot. It's usual to slowly expand the flight profile of new fighters and if the 8G and 26° AoA will be reached with the MK1, it's still a good achievement. The latest figures in the brochure confirm 24° achieved so far for the MK1 and 9G as the aim of MK2.

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## sancho

kaku1 said:


> @Manticore @sancho One question.
> 
> The internal fuel of LCA Mk.1 is around 2458 kg in compare to 2230kg and 2270kg of JF-17 and Gripen C/D.



To not spoil the other thread with LCA discussions...

...offically it was given on the IOC press release with:



> It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.



But as @Manticore, range specs are dependent on the conditions that they are based on. Combat range or combat radius (500Km radius = 1000Km range), what flight profile, what payloads...and without knowing them, you can't compare the figures or how reliable they are.
Drag is certainly an issue for LCA, but surely not to such a difference like the speculated figures show, otherwise the speed figures would also have a similar difference.

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## sancho

*N-LCA NP2 & N-LCA MK2*





*Gripen C/D & Gripen NG:*





So they redesign not only the fuselage, but also the fairings under the wings of the N-LCA MK2, which then leads to the changes of the wingspan, which is comparable to what Saab has done with the Gripen NG. The interesting part however is, that they doesn't seems to to gain wrt to centerline weaponstations, but also that the IAF MK2 doesn't seems to have the same changes of the gearbay, since it's span remains the same as of LCA MK1s.

That however hardly makes sense, when you go for such a large re-design of the fuselage, why not use it to add more weapon stations and why not give the IAF version the same gear bay with a much lightened version of the new gear. That would give you more commonality and just a single set of gears, with some modifications, rather than 2 completely different gears.


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## sudhir007




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## Major Shaitan Singh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567203589194412032

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567203194237771777
In preparation for Aero India expo: Tejas TD2- techies attaching the wing

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## sudhir007



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## vsdave2302

sancho said:


> That's why the IAF wanted "some" more thrust and initially stated the need for around 90kN, but then the navy came in with their requirements and added many things and now we have to wait for a proper MK2 prototype to see what can be achieved and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> The first MK2's will be based on the IAF version, but the MK2 upgrade as such, will mainly include IN's requirements. That's why the airframe needs to be lengthened to include more fuel and most likely why the fuselage will be re-designed to include enough space to include the N-LCA gears, without the hump that we can see on the NP1 and 2, so a more aerodynamic design. These modifications however might be a burden for IAF, since they increase the base weight of the fighter, which counters the higher trust to some extend again. The crucial point will be, how much more fuel can be carried internally, because that decides how many external fuel tanks needs to be carried in each mission. If it's enough to just carry 1 centerline 725l fuel tank, instead of 2 x 1200l tanks at the wings, you will reduce drag to a good extend.
> 
> The performance of the N-LCA will be even more tricky to evaluate, since from what we see now, it will be based on the twin seat version which alone adds more weight and drag by design. Add the weight of the navalisations and the higher operational limits of using it from short take off distances and possibly reduced payload can't really make it very capable.


 

Thanks Sancho but there is a proposal to use 108KN derivative of GE 414 on N LCA so far as I know. That should take care of additional weight etc. Moreover, N LCA performed better than expected with a almost double climb ratio. They have planned to decrease landing gear weight at par with Air force tejas. i.e. 600 KG. So all in all N Tejas MK2 with a weight of ,7.0 tons with 108 KN engine is laieky to give some handsome T/W ratio. MK2 shall have aerodynamic improvement as well. So over all we may expect a very good multirole single engine carier copetable platform.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Tejas: Designed dev'd & made in India; by Indians for Indian Air Force for operating from anywhere in India & beyond


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## vsdave2302

Ind4Ever said:


> Looks like we have repositioned Landing gear On the N-LCA Mk2 they will change the position of the landing gear and brought it more towards the wing/fuselage joint. As Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program said The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel .
> 
> The air intake also to be enlarged by 10mm for MK2 more over due to larger furl intake arrangements for F414-GE-INS6 these changes can be seen ...
> 
> 
> Nice Picture . But only thing I was disappointed when I came to know that range won't be increased much when compared to MK1
> 
> Due to increase in diameter of engine the centerline has to be stretched a bit .But wing span is same .
> 
> And its not Conformal tank . I think


 

MK2 is supposed have 40% higher fuel so as range.


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## Ind4Ever

vsdave2302 said:


> MK1 is supposed have 40% higher fuel so as range.


Do u mean MK2 ? But latest post in this thread on interview of Tejas team 2013 Aero India ... States that larger intake for new engine F414-GE so consumption also more . So there won't be too much difference . Am just quoting from the article . He might be wrong but may be right aswell .


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## vsdave2302

Ind4Ever said:


> Do u mean MK2 ? But latest post in this thread on interview of Tejas team 2013 Aero India ... States that larger intake for new engine F414-GE so consumption also more . So there won't be too much difference . Am just quoting from the article . He might be wrong but may be right aswell .


 

Powerful engine consumes more fuel but at peak performance. I will give you an example. Suppose LCA MK1 and MK2 are flying at 800 KM/Hr with same load. It will require power X for Mk1 and Y for MK2. X>Y since Mk2 shall have lower weight and better aerodynamic. Now the fuel required by Mk2 shall be less than that of MK1. Since MK2 powerful engine operates at higher compression ratio and generate same more power for same fuel. So over all Mk2 shall be consuming less fuel than MK1 for a particular output of power.

Alternatively, If X power is required from both engines, Mk1 engine need to propel at at say X rpm than Mk2 engine need to propale at aroung 0.8X since it is 20% more powerful. So Pushing Mk2 engine at 0.8 X will require less fuel.

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## sudhir007



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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> So all in all N Tejas MK2 with a weight of ,7.0 tons with 108 KN engine is laieky to give some handsome T/W ratio.



Not really, the speculated emergency thrust increase is only for specific situations and not ment to be used all the time and you forget a looooooot of weight that was added.

Single seat LCA MK1 - 6560Kg empty (and we need to see if that changes with the FOC version and the added IFR system)
+ Twin seat config
+ LEVCONS, navalisation of fuselage and gear as well as hook 

That alone puts a fully developed N-LCA MK1 far above 7t, without the MK2 changes, which includes several airframe changes, additional internal weights of engine, fuel tanks and avionics...
At the moment I don't see how an N-LCA MK2 should come below 8t empty weight with all the changes and weight increase and even if you only take the current internal fuel capacity of 2458Kg, it would put the TWR below 1, add external payloads and it will drop even further.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Ind4Ever

Supply&Demand said:


>



Wow ... Out Tejas looks awsome ..... 
That feeling when u see ur baby walk for the first time .  Beautiful

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## possumlot

Just noticed that the Naval Tejas has more ground clearance than the IAF version.


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## GORKHALI

http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_ond...de=3&id_part=3

Can somebody captures the screen,it says the milestones for LCA FOC and lot of other valuable info. @Abingdonboy @sancho

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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_ond...de=3&id_part=3
> 
> Can somebody captures the screen,it says the milestones for LCA FOC and lot of other valuable info.



Which minute?


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Which minute?


1:21:10 onwards ...


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## sancho

@GORKHALI 

I think that were all you wanted, thanks for sharing the link to the seminar webcast. Looking forward to get more infos on LCA / NLCA.

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> View attachment 194183
> 
> 
> View attachment 194184
> 
> 
> View attachment 194185
> 
> 
> View attachment 194186



+ Using better cameras


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> + Using better cameras



I guess that has to do with the webcast, give it a few days and we will see better videos on youtube as usual.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> View attachment 194183
> 
> 
> View attachment 194184
> 
> 
> View attachment 194185
> 
> 
> View attachment 194186
> 
> 
> 
> @GORKHALI
> 
> I think that were all you wanted, thanks for sharing the link to the seminar webcast. Looking forward to get more infos on LCA / NLCA.


Thanks alot bro... Now can you tell me how you did so from next time am not gonna bother you much.


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## Krate M

*Tejas FOC won’t skip the December deadline: *
Bengaluru, Feb 17: The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is on track and it ‘won't skip‘ the December deadline announced by Defence Minister Manohar Parrkiar.
Speaking to OneIndia on the eve of 10th edition of Aero India, P S Subramaniam, ADA Director, said that all the projected schedules in the programme are on the right flightpath.


*




*


"Tejas FOC is well on track and we will stick to the December deadline," Subramaniam said. He said at the Aero India 2015, LSP-3 and LSP-4 will take turns and enthral the crowd during the flying display. The first Series Production (SP-1) aircraft and the second naval prototype (NP-2, a fighter) will be on static display.

*The project has come a long way*

He said all the systems on Tejas have been updated to the contemporary mode. "We have come a long way and I am happy to have fulfilled my missions. The aircraft has undergone so many changes since 2001 and today the pilots say that it's a delight to fly Tejas," Subramaniam, who has been associated with the project for the last 28 years, said.

He said with the FOC, the capabilities of Tejas will be enhanced further. "The integration of an air-to-air refuelling probe, beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, additional low-drag bombs and gun shall be retro-complied on series production aircraft. The delivery of first Squadron of 20 Tejas shall be completed by 2018-19," he said.

Post-Aero India, the weapon trials of Tejas would continue to test some of the mandated mission(s) under FOC.


*



*


*Manuals getting tweaked*

When asked about his reaction to media reports that the SP-1 aircraft was handed over to IAF without any training manuals, the senior scientist said that the documents had to be tweaked further for the squadron pilots.

"So far Tejas was flown by experienced Test Pilots and now with the aircraft being handed over to the IAF pilots, they wanted some changes. The squadron pilots did not want too many technology details in the manuals (both tech and flight) and we are making changes to the same based on the IAF feedback," he said.

*Activities completed towards FOC*

• Integration of centre-line drop tank
• Gun integration & ground firing
• Integration of conventional & low drag bombs
• Integration of advanced LGB
•Hot & cold weather trials
•All weather certification
• Envelop expansion to higher angles of attack and load factor (g).
(Source: ADA)
Parameters to be completed during FOC phase
*• Air-to-air refuelling
• Gun flight trials
• High speed low drag bomb with retarded tail unit
• Integration of supersonic drop tank
• Integration of BVR missile and Advanced Close Combat Missile
• Envelop expansion to higher angles of attack and load factor (g)*
(Source ADA)

*Photos: A Veeramani*

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## vsdave2302

Krate M said:


> *Tejas FOC won’t skip the December deadline: *
> Bengaluru, Feb 17: The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is on track and it ‘won't skip‘ the December deadline announced by Defence Minister Manohar Parrkiar.
> Speaking to OneIndia on the eve of 10th edition of Aero India, P S Subramaniam, ADA Director, said that all the projected schedules in the programme are on the right flightpath.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> "Tejas FOC is well on track and we will stick to the December deadline," Subramaniam said. He said at the Aero India 2015, LSP-3 and LSP-4 will take turns and enthral the crowd during the flying display. The first Series Production (SP-1) aircraft and the second naval prototype (NP-2, a fighter) will be on static display.
> 
> *The project has come a long way*
> 
> He said all the systems on Tejas have been updated to the contemporary mode. "We have come a long way and I am happy to have fulfilled my missions. The aircraft has undergone so many changes since 2001 and today the pilots say that it's a delight to fly Tejas," Subramaniam, who has been associated with the project for the last 28 years, said.
> 
> He said with the FOC, the capabilities of Tejas will be enhanced further. "The integration of an air-to-air refuelling probe, beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, additional low-drag bombs and gun shall be retro-complied on series production aircraft. The delivery of first Squadron of 20 Tejas shall be completed by 2018-19," he said.
> 
> Post-Aero India, the weapon trials of Tejas would continue to test some of the mandated mission(s) under FOC.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *Manuals getting tweaked*
> 
> When asked about his reaction to media reports that the SP-1 aircraft was handed over to IAF without any training manuals, the senior scientist said that the documents had to be tweaked further for the squadron pilots.
> 
> "So far Tejas was flown by experienced Test Pilots and now with the aircraft being handed over to the IAF pilots, they wanted some changes. The squadron pilots did not want too many technology details in the manuals (both tech and flight) and we are making changes to the same based on the IAF feedback," he said.
> 
> *Activities completed towards FOC*
> 
> • Integration of centre-line drop tank
> • Gun integration & ground firing
> • Integration of conventional & low drag bombs
> • Integration of advanced LGB
> •Hot & cold weather trials
> •All weather certification
> • Envelop expansion to higher angles of attack and load factor (g).
> (Source: ADA)
> Parameters to be completed during FOC phase
> *• Air-to-air refuelling
> • Gun flight trials
> • High speed low drag bomb with retarded tail unit
> • Integration of supersonic drop tank
> • Integration of BVR missile and Advanced Close Combat Missile
> • Envelop expansion to higher angles of attack and load factor (g)*
> (Source ADA)
> 
> *Photos: A Veeramani*


 

AOA has already reached 26* as per saurav Jha g limit crossed 7 . Precision bombing already carried out. Integrate gun first. We can integrate refuel probe later on. When we had inducted Mirage, Gun integrated 3 years later. We inducted MKI without EW and integrated many years later. Basically plane should be problem free. we can integrate weapon, EW at any time.


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## Sri

I did not understand on one hand he says its not delayed and on another he says its End of 2015. Does it not mean the FOC is delayed by 1 year from Dec 2014 to dec 2015.


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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Thanks alot bro... Now can you tell me how you did so from next time am not gonna bother you much.



Simple copy and paste in any graphic program you have, like Paint or PS.



Sri said:


> I did not understand on one hand he says its not delayed and on another he says its End of 2015. Does it not mean the FOC is delayed by 1 year from Dec 2014 to dec 2015.



The usual distraction tactics of DRDO, it is delayed for 1 year now, although the hope last Dec was to achieve it by mid 2015. And I wouldn't give too much about his statements about Dec 2015 at this point too, since we know only how good the radar works, when the new nose is integrated and tested and the nose is only to be available around April. So only after that one can judge how much more time is needed, since the radar integration is crucial for the BVR missile integration too. Lets hope for the best

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## Marxist

photo courtesy: PIB India

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> The usual distraction tactics of DRDO, it is delayed for 1 year now, although the hope last Dec was to achieve it by mid 2015. And I wouldn't give too much about his statements about Dec 2015 at this point too, since we know only how good the radar works, when the new nose is integrated and tested and the nose is only to be available around April. So only after that one can judge how much more time is needed, since the radar integration is crucial for the BVR missile integration too. Lets hope for the best



Considering the fact that the DRDO head was recently FIRED, I expect the DRDO group heads to push their team HARD to stick to its schedule


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Considering the fact that the DRDO head was recently FIRED, I expect the DRDO group heads to push their team HARD to stick to its schedule



And I welcomed that move, but I heared too many promises of DRDO over the years and don't bother about that too much anymore. Let them deliver and then we can celebrate.


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## Abingdonboy

L-273 Uttam AESA radar for Tejas

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> L-273 Uttam AESA radar for Tejas


Is it a mock up or real radar ?


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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Is it a mock up or real radar ?


I am unsure but I would assume real because with the casing and everything it looks functional, no reason for a mock up to be so detailed.

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> I am unsure but I would assume real because with the casing and everything it looks functional, no reason for a mock up to be so detailed.


So is it working ?


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## Water Car Engineer

*LEVCON and Arrestor Hook*

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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> So is it working ?


Let's hope so

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## OTTOMAN

what is TWR? with full fuel and payload.


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## Abingdonboy

LCA simulator from 1.50:

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## IrbiS



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## vsdave2302

Sri said:


> I did not understand on one hand he says its not delayed and on another he says its End of 2015. Does it not mean the FOC is delayed by 1 year from Dec 2014 to dec 2015.


 

he is talking about new deadline of December 15.

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## Sri

vsdave2302 said:


> he is talking about new dead line of December 15.



Lets hope there no more new deadlines


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## vsdave2302

Sri said:


> Lets hope there no more new deadlines


 

yes, We can only hope. they will be little scarred as they knew that Modi can kick their *** as he has kicked some senior bueraucrates.


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## SpArK



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## kaykay

SpArK said:


>


WOW. Amazing pics NK.

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## SpArK

naval lca arrestor hook seems to have been integrated

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## Krate M

Chindits: PM Checks Out LCA Tejas At Aero India 2015

*PM Checks Out LCA Tejas At Aero India 2015*


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## sudhir007

From AI-15


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## Water Car Engineer




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## sancho

> *We have no doubts on Tejas’ capabilities: IAF Chief *
> 
> Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said on Thursday that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would begin the Squadron formation of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas after receiving third series production (SP) variant...
> 
> ..."*The first two series production aircraft (SP-1 and SP-2) have some slight variations and from SP-3* onwards we will have them entering into the Squadron. *The first squadron will consist of aircraft from SP-3 to SP-6*," the Air Chief said...
> 
> ..."*We will form the second Tejas squadron when we receive the aircraft from the Final Operational Clearance block*," he said...
> 
> ...The Air Chief said confirmed that in addition to the first order of 40 Tejas aircraft, 80 more will be ordered (Mark II version)...



We have no doubts on Tejas’ capabilities: IAF Chief - Oneindia

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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568460816208367616


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## Storm Force

stunning pictures of lca tejas


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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *LEVCON and Arrestor Hook*





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568470998082678785

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*LCA NP-2 Spotted with Arrestor Hook at Aero India 2015*

*




*

LCA-NP2, second prototype of the Naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft was today spotted with Arrestor Hook, raising curiosity among visitors if Integration of Arrestor Hook has been completed on Naval LCA and tests on NLCA will soon commence to test hook to be used in rapid deceleration of aircraft during routine landings on aircraft carriers .

But idrw.org was later able to confirm from HAL officials that Arrestor Hook device spotted on keel of the aircraft actually was a Dummy and was placed in manner to look like Arrestor Hook as been integrated in the aircraft . when questioned when will actual mounting take place? , HAL officials confirmed that Carrier Compatibility Testing (CCT) of Naval LCA is still in initial phase , further CCT will be carried out on Shore Based Test Facility ( SBTF) which has mechanism to test ski-jump take-off and restraining gear to simulate Aircraft carriers operations.

Focus clearly seems to test ski-jump take-off operations on N-LCA and Integration of Arrestor Hook on N-LCA will take place at later phase of testing most probably in October said sources close to idrw.org. While another confirmation coming is that MK-2 will be sporting new lighter and leaner Landing gear which will go through further weight reduction to improve safety and make aircraft lighter too.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Model of LCA - Navy AeroIndia2015

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## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568077891826659328

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568320127952777216

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568320011900571648

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## Echo_419

kurup said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568077891826659328
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568320127952777216
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568320011900571648



What's OBOGS & does 1st tweet means Pvt sector will be invited to play a key role


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## kurup

Echo_419 said:


> What's OBOGS & does 1st tweet means Pvt sector will be invited to play a key role



OBOGS = On-Board Oxygen Generation Systems

and Yes .

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## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568473125454655488












__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568663069024350208

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*BEL Offers Homemade Phased Array Radars For Tejas*

BEL is offering indigenously-built radars for the Indian Air Force’s LCA Tejas currently featuring Israeli multi-mode radars on board.

SK Sharma, Chairman and Managing Director of BEL told reporters here at Aero India 2015, “Our Active Array Radar is currently being developed in collaboration with DRDO, and would take 2 years to complete. The progress is going good and we hope Tejas could ultimately have homemade radars."

The company executive highlighted the other IAF upgrade programmes including its electronic warfare suites expected to undergo trails in 6 months, which is also likely to cover the LCA program.

Simultaneously, BEL is developing new technical control radar for the army, low level transportable radars for IAF and army, as well as weapon upgrades for army.

Further adding, Sharma said Akash missile for the Indian Army has gained production clearance and the delivery will commence in next 2-3 years. “BEL has a share of over 3000-4000 crore in the order size of Rs 14000 crore”.

BEL will supply systems including long range capture surveillance and capture radar, fire radar, control systems among others.

Quizzed upon the Indian Army’s Battlefield Management System (BMS) program, Sharma said the official nod has not been given yet, and the actual progress will take another 4 years. BEL is bidding with 7 other companies.

BEL Offers Homemade Phased Array Radars For Tejas

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## kaykay

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *BEL Offers Homemade Phased Array Radars For Tejas*
> 
> BEL is offering indigenously-built radars for the Indian Air Force’s LCA Tejas currently featuring Israeli multi-mode radars on board.
> 
> SK Sharma, Chairman and Managing Director of BEL told reporters here at Aero India 2015, “Our Active Array Radar is currently being developed in collaboration with DRDO, and would take 2 years to complete. The progress is going good and we hope Tejas could ultimately have homemade radars."
> 
> The company executive highlighted the other IAF upgrade programmes including its electronic warfare suites expected to undergo trails in 6 months, which is also likely to cover the LCA program.
> 
> Simultaneously, BEL is developing new technical control radar for the army, low level transportable radars for IAF and army, as well as weapon upgrades for army.
> 
> Further adding, Sharma said Akash missile for the Indian Army has gained production clearance and the delivery will commence in next 2-3 years. “BEL has a share of over 3000-4000 crore in the order size of Rs 14000 crore”.
> 
> BEL will supply systems including long range capture surveillance and capture radar, fire radar, control systems among others.
> 
> Quizzed upon the Indian Army’s Battlefield Management System (BMS) program, Sharma said the official nod has not been given yet, and the actual progress will take another 4 years. BEL is bidding with 7 other companies.
> 
> BEL Offers Homemade Phased Array Radars For Tejas


Different AESA project? LRDE is developing an AESA radar for Tejas mk2 too so are both different?


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Something's iffy at the rear end of LCA SP-1..


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> Different AESA project? LRDE is developing an AESA radar for Tejas mk2 too so are both different?



=>



Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Our Active Array Radar is currently being developed in collaboration with DRDO, and would take 2 years to complete



It's the same radar, BEL is the manufacturer, LRDE the developer.

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## Echo_419

kurup said:


> OBOGS = On-Board Oxygen Generation Systems
> 
> and Yes .





kurup said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568473125454655488
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568663069024350208




I thought we were self sufficient in Composites & stuff


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## sancho



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## Abingdonboy



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## CONNAN

*India's LCA Navy project gathers momentum with four flight tests for second prototype*





The Indian Navy's single-seater Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Navy prototype NP-2 (seen here in February 2015 at the Aero India show in Bangalore) successfully completed its maiden flight. Source: Sitanshu Kar/Indian Ministry of Defence
*Key Points*

Indian Navy single-seater Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) prototype NP-2 succesfully completed its maiden flight on 7 February
A further three test flights have since been performed
The single-seater Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Navy prototype for the Indian Navy, NP-2, has succesfully completed its first flight, and has since flown a further three times.

The aircraft conducted its maiden flight on 7 February at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) airfield in Bangalore. According to HAL, the aircraft performed "flawlessly" during the 35-minute test flight.

NP-2 embodies several improvements based on feedback from flights of the first flight test article, the two-seater NP-1. After a handful of flights between April and July 2012, the NP-1 flight test programme saw the aircraft go through several modifications including structural revisions to enable the landing gear to handle the high aircraft sink rates associated with carrier landing operations. Other work included improvements to the aircraft's environmental control system (ECS) and fuel system. Airbus Defence & Space (formerly EADS) has been providing technical assistance with these activities.

The NP-2's avionics suite incorporates "all requisite" hardware, according to project officials. The airframe also has been modified to incrementally accept additional avionics and control system updates such as the Leading Edge Vortex Controller (Levcon) Air Data Computer, an auto throttle, and external and internal angle of attack lights, using a 'plug-and-play' systems approach, said HAL.

The NP-2 is to be the lead aircraft for arrestor hook integration, the Rafael Derby Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), and tactical datalink, said HAL in a statement.

The naval LCA project was approved by the Indian government in 2003, with the first stage of development comprising two LCA Navy Mk 1 flight test articles - a trainer prototype (NP-1) and a fighter aircraft prototype (NP-2) - and a static test article, all built to the Mk 1 design. Since then, another trainer, NP-5, has been approved; its airframe is under construction.

In addition, two more Mk 1 fighter aircraft prototypes are planned to be built - although the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is yet to formally fund these test articles.

The second stage of the LCA project involves building two Mk 2 flight test articles - NP-3 and NP-4, both in a single-seater configuration.

The concept design of the definitive Mk 2 version is understood to have been completed. The Mk 2 is, in essence, a major redesign of the Mk 1 for enhanced mission performance and improved maintainability.

The Mk 2 will incorporate a more powerful General Electric F-414 INS6 engine as well as landing gear, arrestor hook, and internal layout developments, a reduced nose droop to improve aerodynamic performance, and other drag reduction features.

It will also feature a fuel dump system, increased fuel capacity, a retractable inflight refueling probe, and an onboard oxygen generation system.

The avionics suite will feature the new Uttam active electronically scanned array (AESA) multimode radar, an upgraded flight control computer, and an improved cockpit layout. Defensive systems will be enhanced with a new integrated electronic warfare suite.

Crucially, unlike the LCA Navy Mk 1, which was adapted from an air force variant, the LCA Navy Mk 2 will be optimised 'ab initio' to be a carrier-borne naval fighter aircraft, according to a project official. It is understood that the Mk 2's first flight is now expected to take place around 2020.

According to industry sources, the Indian Navy has a requirement for over 50 Mk 2 airframes, to be formed into two squadrons.

India's LCA Navy project gathers momentum with four flight tests for second prototype - IHS Jane's 360


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## Chanakya's_Chant

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/569047165462384641


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## SpArK



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## vsdave2302

SpArK said:


> naval lca arrestor hook seems to have been integrated


 

It is that 300 to 400 KG weight slashed in Landing Gear. Ultimate Target is to bring that at par with Airforce tejas at 600 KG.


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## SpArK



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## trident2010

SpArK said:


>



I was hoping for better show. Same old basic manoeuvres.


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## Abingdonboy



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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

trident2010 said:


> I was hoping for better show. Same old basic manoeuvres.


Hathiyaar hai.. Khilona nahin

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## skynet

The LCA Navy carrier simulator. Currently in the works. Displayed for the first time at #*AeroIndia2015*

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## CONNAN

*Aero India 2015: ADA Chief says IAF will get 36 Tejas in FOC format*

Bengaluru, Feb 22: Thrilled by the assurance given by the Chief of Air Staff Air Cheif Marshal Arup Raha, Team Tejas is on Cloud 9 as the curtains are drawn on 10th edition of Aero India 2015.

Putting an end to all speculations, Raha had categorically stated at Aero India that the Indian Air Force (IAF) has full faith in Tejas and its capabilities.


*



*
In an interview to OneIndia, P S Subramaniam, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director overseeing the Tejas project said that the Chief ‘s statement has rejuvenated the team.

*IAF Chief's remarks lifted the team's morale*

"We read it in the newspapers and it has lifted the morale of all entire teams in ADA, HAL, DRDO and NAL. In a development programme, delays are natural and we are now ensuring that the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is achieved as planned in December," Subramaniam said.

As reported by OneIndia earlier, the IAF will start inducting Tejas series production (SP-3) aircraft onwards into IAF.

As per the contract, HAL will have to deliver a total of 20 Tejas series production aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) format and another 20 in the FOC mode. The IAF also needs 80 Tejas Mk-2s, which are being powered by the GE 414 engine.


*



*
Subramaniam claimed that they are confident of handing over the FOC versions of Tejas from SP-4 onwards.

"We are sure that from SP-4 onwards (likely to be rolled out by HAL during the end of 2015), IAF will start getting the Tejas that matches all FOC requirements. Hence, the IAF will be ready with 36 FOC Tejas aircraft, instead of 20 as per the order," Subramaniam said.

He said that Tejas has no critical technologies, which are older than four to five years. "We had accommodated so many changes during the development phase. Our mission is to ensure that all updates being demanded by IAF are given to them. At the end of the day, the IAF has every right to demand the best," Subramaniam said.

*Squadron formation activities gather momentum in Sulur*

He said the IAF technicians have already started their training sessions with HAL.


*



*
An ASMS (Aircraft System Maintenance Simulator) is also operational to train technicians on the maintenance of various systems on Tejas.

He confirmed that the civil works have already begun at Air Force Station Sulur, which will be the base for the Tejas.

"We are on an advisory mode now. The designers have already started interacting with the IAF team in Sulur on matters related to facilities," he said.

A Full Mission Simulator is expected to reach Sulur soon. He said the IAF pilots will start flying the Tejas officially from April onwards.

Aero India 2015: ADA Chief says IAF will get 36 Tejas in FOC format - Oneindia

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## Abingdonboy



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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007



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## Abingdonboy

*

LCA Navy carrier simulator:









*


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## Hage Tado



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## MilSpec

Echo_419 said:


> I thought we were self sufficient in Composites & stuff


not at all. We can build our own composites, but the most of the fabric and resin is imported.


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## IrbiS



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## sancho

CONNAN said:


> "We read it in the newspapers and it has lifted the morale of all entire teams in ADA, HAL, DRDO and NAL. In a development programme, *delays are natural* and we are now ensuring that the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is achieved as planned in December," Subramaniam said.
> Subramaniam claimed that they are confident of handing over the FOC versions of Tejas from SP-4 onwards.
> 
> "*We are sure that from SP-4 onwards (likely to be rolled out by HAL during the end of 2015), IAF will start getting the Tejas that matches all FOC requirements. Hence, the IAF will be ready with 36 FOC Tejas aircraft, instead of 20 as per the order," Subramaniam said*...



You got to be kidding me, is he still trying to justify delays??? And does that mean that only 2 fighters will be produced now (SP3 and 4) , with deliver till the end of the year?


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## Water Car Engineer



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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> You got to be kidding me, is he still trying to justify delays??? And does that mean that only 2 fighters will be produced now (SP3 and 4) , with deliver till the end of the year?



Explaining / justifying ... potetoes / potatoes. 

You do realize he is ADA head, not HAL head. *He's not in charge of Production or responsible for it in anyway. *


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## CONNAN

sancho said:


> You got to be kidding me, is he still trying to justify delays??? And does that mean that only 2 fighters will be produced now (SP3 and 4) , with deliver till the end of the year?


unfortunately he is i got used to it bro


----------



## RPK

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=718638034900191

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Explaining / justifying ... potetoes / potatoes.
> 
> *You do realize he is ADA head*, not HAL head.* He's not in charge of Production or responsible for it in anyway. *



I do, but you don't seems to get, that it's the development side that is delaying the production! The fact that it still didn't got FOC and ADA / DRDO are responsible for that, which leaves HAL as the production agency on the receiving end only. When they make all SP's beyond the 4th dependend on achieving the FOC, HAL can't produce more fighters, but then more delays in the production plane are likely too.



CONNAN said:


> unfortunately he is i got used to it bro



With all the delays and the mess they (ADA / DRDO) created, one should expect they have learned to be more humble now, but another thing they didn't seem to learn.

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## sancho

MK2 cockpit, at ADA specboard:

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## ADD BDM

sancho said:


> MK2 cockpit, at ADA specboard:
> View attachment 196909


displays are bigger..........................any more clear pics


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## Abingdonboy




----------



## sancho

ADD BDM said:


> displays are bigger..........................any more clear pics



No, I just saw it in the specboards in the link you posted in the Aero India thread. Was waiting for more infos or even pics about that too, but sadly nothing more seems to have been shown on that.


----------



## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> No, I just saw it in the specboards in the link you posted in the Aero India thread. Was waiting for more infos or even pics about that too, but sadly nothing more seems to have been shown on that.


Well they could put touch screen. Kinda disappointed.


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## Sri

The cockpit looks pretty old. They could have added frame less HUD.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*'Integrated Life Support System' & 'On-board oxygen generating system' for light combat aircraft LCA*


----------



## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Well they could put touch screen. Kinda disappointed.



I'm happy that they didn't went that way as DRDO planned, since the only purpose would had been to show off, especially in the low end fighter of the fleet. These larger MFD's will be an improvement too, far more cost-effective and easier to implement.


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## Abingdonboy

Sri said:


> The cockpit looks pretty old. They could have added frame less HUD.


Agreed.



sancho said:


> I'm happy that they didn't went that way as DRDO planned, since the only purpose would had been to show off, especially in the low end fighter of the fleet. These larger MFD's will be an improvement too, far more cost-effective and easier to implement.



@sancho I'm pretty disappointed, there was all that hype around going for the HALBIT Cockpit NG which would only add to the capabilities of the MK.2, just going for larger MFDs is pretty underwhelming. What would it really cost to integrate a new generation cockpit? Not that much in the grand scheme of things and the cost differential per unit would be negligible.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho I'm pretty disappointed, there was all that hype around going for the HALBIT Cockpit NG which would only add to the capabilities of the MK.2, just going for larger MFDs is pretty underwhelming. What would it really cost to integrate a new generation cockpit? Not that much in the grand scheme of things and the cost differential per unit would be negligible.



Who said that cockpit was meant for LCA? Only the nonsense statements of DRDO officials about 5th gen avionics and that's BS. The fact of the matter is, that you need to re-design the complete cockpit to implement it, which logically is much more difficult and costly, than replacing MFD's with slightly larger MFD's. And no it wouldn't added LCA anything, since that wouldn't solve the problems the fighter have in flight performance, the lack of A2A capabilities, the nose issues, the lack of additional hardpoints...


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The fact of the matter is, that you need to re-design the complete cockpit to implement it, which logically is much more difficult and costly, than replacing MFD's with slightly larger MFD's.


Indeed it would but the extent of the redesign and costs (both finical and in terms of time) are unknown, the could be minimal. 



sancho said:


> And no it wouldn't added LCA anything,


Really? Improved situational awareness and reduced pilot workload don't add anything sir?

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed it would but the extent of the redesign and costs (both finical and in terms of time) are unknown, *the could be minimal. *


Here is a hint from the Gripen E:



> ..."Enter the widescreen display request by FAB *will require changes and adaptations in the fuselage of the aircraft avionics system and the interface between man and machine*. We do not think it will be difficult to resolve, but will ask for more work than if we had the same display model in versions of Gripen Swedish and Brazilian, "says engineer at Saab in an exclusive interview to G1...



And here why Swedish Air Force will not go for the NG display:



> ...Sweden is the largest operator of the Gripen in the world and now has 100 units of model C (a gas) and D (two posts for training), which will be exchanged for 60 aircraft of type E, *with no widescreen display, says Bydén . Swedish pilots heard by G1 say they do not rely on a single display to fly and that, therefore, the decision is to keep the old design. * "*We are accustomed to three displays. If I miss one, I have other backup. I would not trust one*, "says Colonel Lundquist,



So it's neither plug and play as you might think, nor is it necessarily the best solution, only because it's new.



Abingdonboy said:


> Really? Improved situational awareness and reduced pilot workload don't add anything sir?



Does the displays somehow add more sensors to the LCA, to improve SA? And how does it reduce the workload, doesn't the pilot have to guide weapons or navigate anymore? It's a display mate, nothing more!
The only advantage is, that it displays the informations in a better way that older displays could, just as the larger AMFDs that are now planned will be an improvement to the older once. But without additional sensors, to provide more informations, the display will just show *the same infos*, just in a different way and again, it doesn't solve a single of the problems the fighter has and that is what we have to work on, not making it look shinier. In fact this waste of time on aiming too high and making things too complicated is one of the core reasons LCA is in such a mess.

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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> Here is a hint from the Gripen E:
> 
> 
> 
> And here why Swedish Air Force will not go for the NG display:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's neither plug and play as you might think, nor is it necessarily the best solution, only because it's new.
> 
> 
> 
> Does the displays somehow add more sensors to the LCA, to improve SA? And how does it reduce the workload, doesn't the pilot have to guide weapons or navigate anymore? It's a display mate, nothing more!
> The only advantage is, that it displays the informations in a better way that older displays could, just as the larger AMFDs that are now planned will be an improvement to the older once. But without additional sensors, to provide more informations, the display will just show *the same infos*, just in a different way and again, it doesn't solve a single of the problems the fighter has and that is what we have to work on, not making it look shinier. In fact this waste of time on aiming too high and making things too complicated is one of the core reasons LCA is in such a mess.



There are many more important matters and complexities with regard to the LCA. The testing and integration for the prospective AESA radar for one, it shall not be easy, to run it through all its modes, the fine-tuning of the targeting algorithms. It shall be a time consuming process, as complicated as the now concluded design process itself. We have seen no movement with regard to the IRST sensor that needs to be incorporated. There are a lot of variables which still need to be settled before we fuss over a super futuristic cockpit.

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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> There are many more important matters and complexities with regard to the LCA. The testing and integration for the prospective AESA radar for one, it shall not be easy, to run it through all its modes, the fine-tuning of the targeting algorithms. It shall be a time consuming process, as complicated as the now concluded design process itself. We have seen no movement with regard to the IRST sensor that needs to be incorporated. There are a lot of variables which still need to be settled before we fuss over a super futuristic cockpit.



True, but the AESA again is not solving LCAs problems or will be a game changer. It adds capability compared to the puls doppler MMR, but won't add a single more payload to the fighter, because the limited hardnumbers are the more crucial problem. That's one reasons why the navy is forced to go for the far more difficult MK2 design change and taking the twin seater as the base of the NLCA, because they need more internal space to carry more fuel, since only that frees hardpoints for more payloads. 

The NLCA MK2 even with the older EL 2032, would be more capable than an IAF LCA MK2 with AESA, because the earlier can carry a wider range of payloads, to greater distances. That's why the game changer for the Gripen E is neither the AESA, nor the single screen display that the Brazilians add, but the re-design to carry more fuel and hardpoints! That really sets it apart from it's earlier varients and makes it comparable to medium class fighters.

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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> True, but the AESA again is not solving LCAs problems or will be a game changer. It adds capability compared to the puls doppler MMR, but won't add a single more payload to the fighter, because the limited hardnumbers are the more crucial problem. That's one reasons why the navy is forced to go for the far more difficult MK2 design change and taking the twin seater as the base of the NLCA, because they need more internal space to carry more fuel, since only that frees hardpoints for more payloads.
> 
> The NLCA MK2 even with the older EL 2032, would be more capable than an IAF LCA MK2 with AESA, because the earlier can carry a wider range of payloads, to greater distances. That's why the game changer for the Gripen E is neither the AESA, nor the single screen display that the Brazilians add, but the re-design to carry more fuel and hardpoints! That really sets it apart from it's earlier varients and makes it comparable to medium class fighters.



NLCA/Mk.2, whatever one calls it, will still have real estate restrictions. The base design of the LCA just did not have the required room for such modifications. The quantum by which fuel capacity will be increased is unlikely to to be astonishing like in the case of the Gripen-E and the number of hardpoints are not going to change all though the loads they are rated for might. One thing that might prove fortuitous is the incorporation of an in-flight refueling probe, which might free up the plumbed hardpoints.


----------



## sancho

Dillinger said:


> NLCA/Mk.2, whatever one calls it, will still have real estate restrictions. The base design of the LCA just did not have the required room for such modifications. The quantum by which fuel capacity will be increased is unlikely to to be astonishing



That's still unlcear from what we know in public and to be honest I still fail to understand the logic so far. If they are widen the fuselage and adding fairings besides the air intakes to fit the modified gears to the NLCA, they could had done the same with the airforce version too. It still might have 1 internal fuel tank less than the naval version, but still would be able to do most roles with just 1 center line fuel tank.If you look at the board @sudhir007 had posted in post #354, it shows:

Air Defence

- 2 x 800l fuel tanks
- 2 x BVR missiles
- 2 x WVR missiles


So if the AF MK2 could equal the fuel load with a centerline 725l tank + 875l in the internal fuel tanks, it would free 2 hardpoints for more BVR missiles. That alone would be a huge increase of capability, not only because of the additional weapons, but also because of the reduction of drag and RCS => improved performance and that even without AESA or advanced displays.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Tejas at night piercing through darkness

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bhuvan93

Why is there still little indication about the specs of the Mk.2? Also, surely won't the internal fuel increase be offset by the heavier F414 engine?

But then again, if they are lengthening and widening the aircraft thus in turn increasing internal fuel, surely not so much extra weight would have to be covered so that the fuel increase isn't significant? I mean, they are looking to shave off how much further from the landing gear? Another 150-200kg? Surely such further "finds" should compensate for any engine weight increases/increase in "fatness" of the plane. And on top of that, increased fuel efficiency with the F414? 

There's this absolutely brilliant and informative post on Bharat Rakshak by one of their posters, I'm sure he won't mind if I copy and paste it on here (all credit goes to him (Kartik) - would post a link but I'm unable to)


*"Here are some snippets from my conversations with ADA guys at AI-'15. Once again a long post, but I wanted to put it all down before I forget these points.

-Navy LCA Mk2 is not going to be derived from the IAF LCA Mk2. This was made clear by a young gentleman. He said that ADA and the Navy decided to go with a design to meet the IN's needs, even if it means somewhat radical changes from the IAF LCA Mk2, which is further ahead in design phase. The Navy is fully supportive of this approach. They want a variant that works best for their specific needs and requirements, even if it takes more time and effort.

-Navy LCA Mk2 first flight targeted for end-2018 or early 2019 and entry into service by 2023-24.

-The reason for the hump behind the cockpit canopy is due to area ruling. Spoke to a very senior ADA person who works primarily in aero and was associated with the Tejas program since its inception days and he confirmed this. He mentioned that this was done in close consultation with some consulting agency- most likely Airbus Defense and Space (previously EADS), but this he didn’t confirm.

- I asked if the design could be more streamlined or a bubble canopy like that on the MiG-29KUB/K couldn't be used instead of the current design. The gentleman said that the design is not finalised as yet though..further aerodynamic streamlining may occur in the future since they haven't yet tested a wind tunnel model of the Navy LCA Mk2. They will be using the HAL wind tunnel for this, since its considered to be quite good. 

-The reason for the hump was that the Navy LCA Mk2 actually has become wider and significantly longer than the Navy LCA Mk1. Add to that the LEVCONS that add to the cross sectional area just fore of the wing join, and they needed a smoother blend and to avoid the sudden cross-sectional area change as seen in the IAF Tejas Mk1. 

-That hump will be eventually used for something. Not certain as yet, but likely to be some avionics. 

-The reason for the Navy LCA Mk2 having even greater length than the IAF LCA Mk2 was explained to be drag and internal fuel volume related. They wanted more to be carried internally and the designers of the Navy LCA Mk2 wanted to improve the fine-ness ratio. 

-I asked the ADA gentleman working on the Navy Mk2 as to why the IAF LCA Mk2 didn’t get a 1m fuselage plug instead of 0.5m and he wasn’t sure..another HAL designer had earlier said that the 0.5m plug was to improve maintainability and access to certain LRUs. Not because of drag issues..clearly, not all folks at ADA and HAL are in the know and their knowledge or info is silo based. They know about their subject but very little about some other department’s issues..I asked if they compare notes amongst each other as the Navy Mk2 and IAF Mk2 groups are different. He said they do know what is happening in each other’s programs but the collaboration may not be very deep. 

-The senior ADA gentleman who was associated with the LCA program since the 1980s said that the IAF requirement was for the LCA to be as small as possible and definitely no bigger than a MiG-21. 

This confirms what certain other posters on BRF have stated- that the IAF required that the LCA had to able to fit into hangars sized for MiG-21’s and use existing base infrastructure, (while carrying significantly more and to a greater distance). And so the ADA guys went further and made it even smaller in length- the MiG-21Bis length w/o pitot is 14.1m, whereas the LCA Mk1 is 13.2m long without pitot. That was clearly a mistake on the part of ADA and is only now being rectified.

-The reason for the wider fuselage is what we already know- to accomodate the landing gear with its new fairing. Additional fuel tanks will also be accomodated. 

-Regarding the F-16 style air-brakes- apparently it was considered but they found it to not be feasible since the structure in that region is not strong enough to withstand the heavy aero loads that will be encountered if the split airbrakes are operated. The beefing up would add weight, so as of now they're going ahead with the current air brakes. However, there is a study underway to see if the airbrake could be moved to a dedicated surface under the wing. 

-Harpoon AShM is also going to be integrated to the Navy LCA Mk2 in addition to Kh-35E. 

-Derby BVR missile is confirmed for the Navy Mk2 but strangely the person I spoke to wasn’t sure about Python 5. Perhaps he just wasn’t in the know. Another gentleman confirmed that the IAF Mk2 will get both Derby and Python5..he wasn’t so sure about the Astra. By the way I snapped a pic of a Tejas config with the Derby and Python 5, at the Rafael stand..have to figure out how to upload all the pics I’ve taken, which include a bunch of AMCA snaps. 

-I’ve uploaded the LCA Mk1 ground based gun firing trials video onto youtube..just search for “Tejas LCA gun firing trial”. It’s a short 5 sec clip. The gun trials were conducted to validate the vibration characteristics and to check whether structures, internal avionics and electronics can withstand it. No issues were seen during the trials. 

-L-273 Uttam AESA radar will be the likeliest radar for the Navy LCA Mk2. This clears my confusion from last Aero India where the Deputy PD said that the Elta 2032 would be the radar on the Navy Mk2. Clearly, 2 years is a long time and lot has progressed since.

-No IRST requirement from the IAF or IN as yet. ADA guy said that they won’t propose new equipment if the user doesn’t have a requirement for it.

-Further work to be done for shaving off another 200 odd kgs from the landing gear weight for the Mk2

-There is no change in the height of the vertical fin. The additional height of the Navy LCA Mk2 has to do with the longer stroke length of the oleos. It just sits higher than the IAF variant.

-Regarding the weights, I’ll post separately.

-N-LCA Mk1 bring back max weight is in the ~10,500 kgs range..with an empty weight of almost 7900 kgs thanks to the beefed up structure, arrestor hook and new landing gear, the corresponding payload that can be safely brought back (coupled with enough fuel for a couple of missed traps on the carrier) will be in the range of ~2000 kgs. Fuel dump system hence is a mandatory feature for the Navy LCA in case of an emergency soon after take-off. But I’m a little hazy on this part of the conversation so don’t quote me on this as the final figures are not in the public domain as yet.

-We will likely see 8G capability for the Navy LCA Mk2 and not 9G. Thanks to the added structural weight over the IAF LCA Mk2. But the gentleman remarked that even the MiG-29K is not 9G capable and the Super Hornet is 7.5G capable thanks in part to the added weight and in part to the wing folding mechanism that they feature. So the IN may have no issues with 8G capability. AFAIK, only the Rafale M is a 9G naval fighter.

-No wing folding mechanism required for the Navy LCA Mk2 even with the additional wing span (viz. thanks to the fatter fuselage) since it is still quite a small aircraft by comparison to other navy fighters

-Navy LCA Mk2 air intakes will be bigger for sure to cater to the higher mass flow rate of the F-414 engine. The air intake duct will also been lengthened.

-LEVCONs for the Navy LCA Mk1 are currently only used in 1 position..but the FCS will eventually allow for 4 positions- +30 deg, 0 deg, -10 deg and -20 deg. 

-the LCA Mk1 has ~180 kgs of ballast just aft of the nose, below the pilot. Done to be able to keep the CG within a defined range for different configs of weapons and drop tank loadouts. This may be targeted for reduction on the Mk2, possibly by using the space for some equipment. Got this from a young HAL guy. 

-Navy LCA Mk2 will get a fixed probe, not a retractable one as per one gentleman. Last Aero India I was told it would be a retractable one. Unfortunately, Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj wasn’t there on the day I visited, otherwise we’d have got even more info.

-Currently the LCA Mk1 uses flares similar to what the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29 (I may have gotten this list wrong, not completely sure) use. It is an indigenously developed flare that works in one part of the spectrum..but a new multi-spectral flare is being developed that covers a wider band for enhanced protection. This will likely be ready for the Mk2.

-Saw a new pylon adapter that has been developed for the Jaguar- to carry, in the words of the gentleman displaying it, “a boxy type weapon” (he didn’t know what it was though, perhaps the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon?). The new rack uses pneumatics instead of pyro bolts and consequently is easier to maintain since the pryo leaves behind residue that needs to be cleaned. Plus this one is less than 1/3rd the cost of the imported pylon adapters. I asked him if a multiple ejector rack was being developed and he said no. But if a requirement arose, they could do so. 

-Saw the LCA Mk2 cockpit simulator and the cockpit displays. Excellent clarity and they were significantly bigger than on the Mk1. The cockpit itself is a tight fit (I waited for my turn to get to sit inside but some HAL employee’s relatives were given a much longer than usual demo and I was running out of time). The simulator graphics were excellent. Not a full motion sim, but perfect for newbie pilots to get accustomed to the cockpit and the general flying characteristics of the Mk1/2.

-Navy LCA Mk2 will have a wider angle HUD, as it’s a Navy requirement. The IAF has no such requirement, but a new HUD is being developed with better characteristics..not sure what those characteristics are since the person didn’t tell. If jingos want a frameless HUD, ala Gripen or Rafale, they’re going to be disappointed. That ain’t happening.

-HUD symobology is good..been developed in close collaboration with NFTC Test pilots..it took me ~ 10-15 seconds to figure out what was being displayed on the HUD (since it was being displayed on the screen in front of us we all could see it) but that was primarily flight parameters. Since I didn’t get a chance to sit in the cockpit, I couldn’t ask them to run me through different radar modes, or to ask about data fusion or how such data will be displayed. Perhaps it’s too early to ask about data fusion for the Mk2 program. It will most likely be an IAF and IN requirement though.

Regarding the IAF Tejas Mk2's performance, all I got was it will be a 9G fighter. I asked a young ADA guy about its STR and ITR rates and he said he worked on CFD so he didn't know those figures..pointed to another lady and she didn't remember. "*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Abingdonboy

Bhuvan93 said:


> Why is there still little indication about the specs of the Mk.2? Also, surely won't the internal fuel increase be offset by the heavier F414 engine?
> 
> But then again, if they are lengthening and widening the aircraft thus in turn increasing internal fuel, surely not so much extra weight would have to be covered so that the fuel increase isn't significant? I mean, they are looking to shave off how much further from the landing gear? Another 150-200kg? Surely such further "finds" should compensate for any engine weight increases/increase in "fatness" of the plane. And on top of that, increased fuel efficiency with the F414?
> 
> There's this absolutely brilliant and informative post on Bharat Rakshak by one of their posters, I'm sure he won't mind if I copy and paste it on here (all credit goes to him (Kartik) - would post a link but I'm unable to)
> 
> 
> *"Here are some snippets from my conversations with ADA guys at AI-'15. Once again a long post, but I wanted to put it all down before I forget these points.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 is not going to be derived from the IAF LCA Mk2. This was made clear by a young gentleman. He said that ADA and the Navy decided to go with a design to meet the IN's needs, even if it means somewhat radical changes from the IAF LCA Mk2, which is further ahead in design phase. The Navy is fully supportive of this approach. They want a variant that works best for their specific needs and requirements, even if it takes more time and effort.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 first flight targeted for end-2018 or early 2019 and entry into service by 2023-24.
> 
> -The reason for the hump behind the cockpit canopy is due to area ruling. Spoke to a very senior ADA person who works primarily in aero and was associated with the Tejas program since its inception days and he confirmed this. He mentioned that this was done in close consultation with some consulting agency- most likely Airbus Defense and Space (previously EADS), but this he didn’t confirm.
> 
> - I asked if the design could be more streamlined or a bubble canopy like that on the MiG-29KUB/K couldn't be used instead of the current design. The gentleman said that the design is not finalised as yet though..further aerodynamic streamlining may occur in the future since they haven't yet tested a wind tunnel model of the Navy LCA Mk2. They will be using the HAL wind tunnel for this, since its considered to be quite good.
> 
> -The reason for the hump was that the Navy LCA Mk2 actually has become wider and significantly longer than the Navy LCA Mk1. Add to that the LEVCONS that add to the cross sectional area just fore of the wing join, and they needed a smoother blend and to avoid the sudden cross-sectional area change as seen in the IAF Tejas Mk1.
> 
> -That hump will be eventually used for something. Not certain as yet, but likely to be some avionics.
> 
> -The reason for the Navy LCA Mk2 having even greater length than the IAF LCA Mk2 was explained to be drag and internal fuel volume related. They wanted more to be carried internally and the designers of the Navy LCA Mk2 wanted to improve the fine-ness ratio.
> 
> -I asked the ADA gentleman working on the Navy Mk2 as to why the IAF LCA Mk2 didn’t get a 1m fuselage plug instead of 0.5m and he wasn’t sure..another HAL designer had earlier said that the 0.5m plug was to improve maintainability and access to certain LRUs. Not because of drag issues..clearly, not all folks at ADA and HAL are in the know and their knowledge or info is silo based. They know about their subject but very little about some other department’s issues..I asked if they compare notes amongst each other as the Navy Mk2 and IAF Mk2 groups are different. He said they do know what is happening in each other’s programs but the collaboration may not be very deep.
> 
> -The senior ADA gentleman who was associated with the LCA program since the 1980s said that the IAF requirement was for the LCA to be as small as possible and definitely no bigger than a MiG-21.
> 
> This confirms what certain other posters on BRF have stated- that the IAF required that the LCA had to able to fit into hangars sized for MiG-21’s and use existing base infrastructure, (while carrying significantly more and to a greater distance). And so the ADA guys went further and made it even smaller in length- the MiG-21Bis length w/o pitot is 14.1m, whereas the LCA Mk1 is 13.2m long without pitot. That was clearly a mistake on the part of ADA and is only now being rectified.
> 
> -The reason for the wider fuselage is what we already know- to accomodate the landing gear with its new fairing. Additional fuel tanks will also be accomodated.
> 
> -Regarding the F-16 style air-brakes- apparently it was considered but they found it to not be feasible since the structure in that region is not strong enough to withstand the heavy aero loads that will be encountered if the split airbrakes are operated. The beefing up would add weight, so as of now they're going ahead with the current air brakes. However, there is a study underway to see if the airbrake could be moved to a dedicated surface under the wing.
> 
> -Harpoon AShM is also going to be integrated to the Navy LCA Mk2 in addition to Kh-35E.
> 
> -Derby BVR missile is confirmed for the Navy Mk2 but strangely the person I spoke to wasn’t sure about Python 5. Perhaps he just wasn’t in the know. Another gentleman confirmed that the IAF Mk2 will get both Derby and Python5..he wasn’t so sure about the Astra. By the way I snapped a pic of a Tejas config with the Derby and Python 5, at the Rafael stand..have to figure out how to upload all the pics I’ve taken, which include a bunch of AMCA snaps.
> 
> -I’ve uploaded the LCA Mk1 ground based gun firing trials video onto youtube..just search for “Tejas LCA gun firing trial”. It’s a short 5 sec clip. The gun trials were conducted to validate the vibration characteristics and to check whether structures, internal avionics and electronics can withstand it. No issues were seen during the trials.
> 
> -L-273 Uttam AESA radar will be the likeliest radar for the Navy LCA Mk2. This clears my confusion from last Aero India where the Deputy PD said that the Elta 2032 would be the radar on the Navy Mk2. Clearly, 2 years is a long time and lot has progressed since.
> 
> -No IRST requirement from the IAF or IN as yet. ADA guy said that they won’t propose new equipment if the user doesn’t have a requirement for it.
> 
> -Further work to be done for shaving off another 200 odd kgs from the landing gear weight for the Mk2
> 
> -There is no change in the height of the vertical fin. The additional height of the Navy LCA Mk2 has to do with the longer stroke length of the oleos. It just sits higher than the IAF variant.
> 
> -Regarding the weights, I’ll post separately.
> 
> -N-LCA Mk1 bring back max weight is in the ~10,500 kgs range..with an empty weight of almost 7900 kgs thanks to the beefed up structure, arrestor hook and new landing gear, the corresponding payload that can be safely brought back (coupled with enough fuel for a couple of missed traps on the carrier) will be in the range of ~2000 kgs. Fuel dump system hence is a mandatory feature for the Navy LCA in case of an emergency soon after take-off. But I’m a little hazy on this part of the conversation so don’t quote me on this as the final figures are not in the public domain as yet.
> 
> -We will likely see 8G capability for the Navy LCA Mk2 and not 9G. Thanks to the added structural weight over the IAF LCA Mk2. But the gentleman remarked that even the MiG-29K is not 9G capable and the Super Hornet is 7.5G capable thanks in part to the added weight and in part to the wing folding mechanism that they feature. So the IN may have no issues with 8G capability. AFAIK, only the Rafale M is a 9G naval fighter.
> 
> -No wing folding mechanism required for the Navy LCA Mk2 even with the additional wing span (viz. thanks to the fatter fuselage) since it is still quite a small aircraft by comparison to other navy fighters
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 air intakes will be bigger for sure to cater to the higher mass flow rate of the F-414 engine. The air intake duct will also been lengthened.
> 
> -LEVCONs for the Navy LCA Mk1 are currently only used in 1 position..but the FCS will eventually allow for 4 positions- +30 deg, 0 deg, -10 deg and -20 deg.
> 
> -the LCA Mk1 has ~180 kgs of ballast just aft of the nose, below the pilot. Done to be able to keep the CG within a defined range for different configs of weapons and drop tank loadouts. This may be targeted for reduction on the Mk2, possibly by using the space for some equipment. Got this from a young HAL guy.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 will get a fixed probe, not a retractable one as per one gentleman. Last Aero India I was told it would be a retractable one. Unfortunately, Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj wasn’t there on the day I visited, otherwise we’d have got even more info.
> 
> -Currently the LCA Mk1 uses flares similar to what the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29 (I may have gotten this list wrong, not completely sure) use. It is an indigenously developed flare that works in one part of the spectrum..but a new multi-spectral flare is being developed that covers a wider band for enhanced protection. This will likely be ready for the Mk2.
> 
> -Saw a new pylon adapter that has been developed for the Jaguar- to carry, in the words of the gentleman displaying it, “a boxy type weapon” (he didn’t know what it was though, perhaps the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon?). The new rack uses pneumatics instead of pyro bolts and consequently is easier to maintain since the pryo leaves behind residue that needs to be cleaned. Plus this one is less than 1/3rd the cost of the imported pylon adapters. I asked him if a multiple ejector rack was being developed and he said no. But if a requirement arose, they could do so.
> 
> -Saw the LCA Mk2 cockpit simulator and the cockpit displays. Excellent clarity and they were significantly bigger than on the Mk1. The cockpit itself is a tight fit (I waited for my turn to get to sit inside but some HAL employee’s relatives were given a much longer than usual demo and I was running out of time). The simulator graphics were excellent. Not a full motion sim, but perfect for newbie pilots to get accustomed to the cockpit and the general flying characteristics of the Mk1/2.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 will have a wider angle HUD, as it’s a Navy requirement. The IAF has no such requirement, but a new HUD is being developed with better characteristics..not sure what those characteristics are since the person didn’t tell. If jingos want a frameless HUD, ala Gripen or Rafale, they’re going to be disappointed. That ain’t happening.
> 
> -HUD symobology is good..been developed in close collaboration with NFTC Test pilots..it took me ~ 10-15 seconds to figure out what was being displayed on the HUD (since it was being displayed on the screen in front of us we all could see it) but that was primarily flight parameters. Since I didn’t get a chance to sit in the cockpit, I couldn’t ask them to run me through different radar modes, or to ask about data fusion or how such data will be displayed. Perhaps it’s too early to ask about data fusion for the Mk2 program. It will most likely be an IAF and IN requirement though.
> 
> Regarding the IAF Tejas Mk2's performance, all I got was it will be a 9G fighter. I asked a young ADA guy about its STR and ITR rates and he said he worked on CFD so he didn't know those figures..pointed to another lady and she didn't remember. "*


Interesting that the N-LCA and LCA Mk.2 teams are working so independently of one another.


----------



## Hage Tado

Bhuvan93 said:


> Why is there still little indication about the specs of the Mk.2? Also, surely won't the internal fuel increase be offset by the heavier F414 engine?
> 
> But then again, if they are lengthening and widening the aircraft thus in turn increasing internal fuel, surely not so much extra weight would have to be covered so that the fuel increase isn't significant? I mean, they are looking to shave off how much further from the landing gear? Another 150-200kg? Surely such further "finds" should compensate for any engine weight increases/increase in "fatness" of the plane. And on top of that, increased fuel efficiency with the F414?
> 
> There's this absolutely brilliant and informative post on Bharat Rakshak by one of their posters, I'm sure he won't mind if I copy and paste it on here (all credit goes to him (Kartik) - would post a link but I'm unable to)
> 
> 
> *"Here are some snippets from my conversations with ADA guys at AI-'15. Once again a long post, but I wanted to put it all down before I forget these points.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 is not going to be derived from the IAF LCA Mk2. This was made clear by a young gentleman. He said that ADA and the Navy decided to go with a design to meet the IN's needs, even if it means somewhat radical changes from the IAF LCA Mk2, which is further ahead in design phase. The Navy is fully supportive of this approach. They want a variant that works best for their specific needs and requirements, even if it takes more time and effort.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 first flight targeted for end-2018 or early 2019 and entry into service by 2023-24.
> 
> -The reason for the hump behind the cockpit canopy is due to area ruling. Spoke to a very senior ADA person who works primarily in aero and was associated with the Tejas program since its inception days and he confirmed this. He mentioned that this was done in close consultation with some consulting agency- most likely Airbus Defense and Space (previously EADS), but this he didn’t confirm.
> 
> - I asked if the design could be more streamlined or a bubble canopy like that on the MiG-29KUB/K couldn't be used instead of the current design. The gentleman said that the design is not finalised as yet though..further aerodynamic streamlining may occur in the future since they haven't yet tested a wind tunnel model of the Navy LCA Mk2. They will be using the HAL wind tunnel for this, since its considered to be quite good.
> 
> -The reason for the hump was that the Navy LCA Mk2 actually has become wider and significantly longer than the Navy LCA Mk1. Add to that the LEVCONS that add to the cross sectional area just fore of the wing join, and they needed a smoother blend and to avoid the sudden cross-sectional area change as seen in the IAF Tejas Mk1.
> 
> -That hump will be eventually used for something. Not certain as yet, but likely to be some avionics.
> 
> -The reason for the Navy LCA Mk2 having even greater length than the IAF LCA Mk2 was explained to be drag and internal fuel volume related. They wanted more to be carried internally and the designers of the Navy LCA Mk2 wanted to improve the fine-ness ratio.
> 
> -I asked the ADA gentleman working on the Navy Mk2 as to why the IAF LCA Mk2 didn’t get a 1m fuselage plug instead of 0.5m and he wasn’t sure..another HAL designer had earlier said that the 0.5m plug was to improve maintainability and access to certain LRUs. Not because of drag issues..clearly, not all folks at ADA and HAL are in the know and their knowledge or info is silo based. They know about their subject but very little about some other department’s issues..I asked if they compare notes amongst each other as the Navy Mk2 and IAF Mk2 groups are different. He said they do know what is happening in each other’s programs but the collaboration may not be very deep.
> 
> -The senior ADA gentleman who was associated with the LCA program since the 1980s said that the IAF requirement was for the LCA to be as small as possible and definitely no bigger than a MiG-21.
> 
> This confirms what certain other posters on BRF have stated- that the IAF required that the LCA had to able to fit into hangars sized for MiG-21’s and use existing base infrastructure, (while carrying significantly more and to a greater distance). And so the ADA guys went further and made it even smaller in length- the MiG-21Bis length w/o pitot is 14.1m, whereas the LCA Mk1 is 13.2m long without pitot. That was clearly a mistake on the part of ADA and is only now being rectified.
> 
> -The reason for the wider fuselage is what we already know- to accomodate the landing gear with its new fairing. Additional fuel tanks will also be accomodated.
> 
> -Regarding the F-16 style air-brakes- apparently it was considered but they found it to not be feasible since the structure in that region is not strong enough to withstand the heavy aero loads that will be encountered if the split airbrakes are operated. The beefing up would add weight, so as of now they're going ahead with the current air brakes. However, there is a study underway to see if the airbrake could be moved to a dedicated surface under the wing.
> 
> -Harpoon AShM is also going to be integrated to the Navy LCA Mk2 in addition to Kh-35E.
> 
> -Derby BVR missile is confirmed for the Navy Mk2 but strangely the person I spoke to wasn’t sure about Python 5. Perhaps he just wasn’t in the know. Another gentleman confirmed that the IAF Mk2 will get both Derby and Python5..he wasn’t so sure about the Astra. By the way I snapped a pic of a Tejas config with the Derby and Python 5, at the Rafael stand..have to figure out how to upload all the pics I’ve taken, which include a bunch of AMCA snaps.
> 
> -I’ve uploaded the LCA Mk1 ground based gun firing trials video onto youtube..just search for “Tejas LCA gun firing trial”. It’s a short 5 sec clip. The gun trials were conducted to validate the vibration characteristics and to check whether structures, internal avionics and electronics can withstand it. No issues were seen during the trials.
> 
> -L-273 Uttam AESA radar will be the likeliest radar for the Navy LCA Mk2. This clears my confusion from last Aero India where the Deputy PD said that the Elta 2032 would be the radar on the Navy Mk2. Clearly, 2 years is a long time and lot has progressed since.
> 
> -No IRST requirement from the IAF or IN as yet. ADA guy said that they won’t propose new equipment if the user doesn’t have a requirement for it.
> 
> -Further work to be done for shaving off another 200 odd kgs from the landing gear weight for the Mk2
> 
> -There is no change in the height of the vertical fin. The additional height of the Navy LCA Mk2 has to do with the longer stroke length of the oleos. It just sits higher than the IAF variant.
> 
> -Regarding the weights, I’ll post separately.
> 
> -N-LCA Mk1 bring back max weight is in the ~10,500 kgs range..with an empty weight of almost 7900 kgs thanks to the beefed up structure, arrestor hook and new landing gear, the corresponding payload that can be safely brought back (coupled with enough fuel for a couple of missed traps on the carrier) will be in the range of ~2000 kgs. Fuel dump system hence is a mandatory feature for the Navy LCA in case of an emergency soon after take-off. But I’m a little hazy on this part of the conversation so don’t quote me on this as the final figures are not in the public domain as yet.
> 
> -We will likely see 8G capability for the Navy LCA Mk2 and not 9G. Thanks to the added structural weight over the IAF LCA Mk2. But the gentleman remarked that even the MiG-29K is not 9G capable and the Super Hornet is 7.5G capable thanks in part to the added weight and in part to the wing folding mechanism that they feature. So the IN may have no issues with 8G capability. AFAIK, only the Rafale M is a 9G naval fighter.
> 
> -No wing folding mechanism required for the Navy LCA Mk2 even with the additional wing span (viz. thanks to the fatter fuselage) since it is still quite a small aircraft by comparison to other navy fighters
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 air intakes will be bigger for sure to cater to the higher mass flow rate of the F-414 engine. The air intake duct will also been lengthened.
> 
> -LEVCONs for the Navy LCA Mk1 are currently only used in 1 position..but the FCS will eventually allow for 4 positions- +30 deg, 0 deg, -10 deg and -20 deg.
> 
> -the LCA Mk1 has ~180 kgs of ballast just aft of the nose, below the pilot. Done to be able to keep the CG within a defined range for different configs of weapons and drop tank loadouts. This may be targeted for reduction on the Mk2, possibly by using the space for some equipment. Got this from a young HAL guy.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 will get a fixed probe, not a retractable one as per one gentleman. Last Aero India I was told it would be a retractable one. Unfortunately, Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj wasn’t there on the day I visited, otherwise we’d have got even more info.
> 
> -Currently the LCA Mk1 uses flares similar to what the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29 (I may have gotten this list wrong, not completely sure) use. It is an indigenously developed flare that works in one part of the spectrum..but a new multi-spectral flare is being developed that covers a wider band for enhanced protection. This will likely be ready for the Mk2.
> 
> -Saw a new pylon adapter that has been developed for the Jaguar- to carry, in the words of the gentleman displaying it, “a boxy type weapon” (he didn’t know what it was though, perhaps the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon?). The new rack uses pneumatics instead of pyro bolts and consequently is easier to maintain since the pryo leaves behind residue that needs to be cleaned. Plus this one is less than 1/3rd the cost of the imported pylon adapters. I asked him if a multiple ejector rack was being developed and he said no. But if a requirement arose, they could do so.
> 
> -Saw the LCA Mk2 cockpit simulator and the cockpit displays. Excellent clarity and they were significantly bigger than on the Mk1. The cockpit itself is a tight fit (I waited for my turn to get to sit inside but some HAL employee’s relatives were given a much longer than usual demo and I was running out of time). The simulator graphics were excellent. Not a full motion sim, but perfect for newbie pilots to get accustomed to the cockpit and the general flying characteristics of the Mk1/2.
> 
> -Navy LCA Mk2 will have a wider angle HUD, as it’s a Navy requirement. The IAF has no such requirement, but a new HUD is being developed with better characteristics..not sure what those characteristics are since the person didn’t tell. If jingos want a frameless HUD, ala Gripen or Rafale, they’re going to be disappointed. That ain’t happening.
> 
> -HUD symobology is good..been developed in close collaboration with NFTC Test pilots..it took me ~ 10-15 seconds to figure out what was being displayed on the HUD (since it was being displayed on the screen in front of us we all could see it) but that was primarily flight parameters. Since I didn’t get a chance to sit in the cockpit, I couldn’t ask them to run me through different radar modes, or to ask about data fusion or how such data will be displayed. Perhaps it’s too early to ask about data fusion for the Mk2 program. It will most likely be an IAF and IN requirement though.
> 
> Regarding the IAF Tejas Mk2's performance, all I got was it will be a 9G fighter. I asked a young ADA guy about its STR and ITR rates and he said he worked on CFD so he didn't know those figures..pointed to another lady and she didn't remember. "*



Any idea whether Spice 250 will be integrated with any of the LCA's.


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## Bhuvan93

No idea, sorry, dude, better off asking one of Sancho/Abingdonboy/Oscar. 

This might help from them:
LCA Tejas Detachment | Sept - Oct 2014


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## rockstarIN

*TEJAS GUN FIRING VIDEO. (TEST)*


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## sancho

Bhuvan93 said:


> Why is there still little indication about the specs of the Mk.2?



Because not even ADA / DRDO have a proper idea about it. In 2011 the first brochures and models of the LCA / NLCA came out, with already 0.5m longer airframe and additional fuel tanks shown. Back then, the aim might had been on as little differences to the LCA MK1, to benefit from commonality and less development time. Since then things obviously have changed and the requirements of IN have grown far beyond what they stated earlier (additional fuel, more power, AESA), simply by the fact that the standard airframe and a minor lengthening wasn't enough to make N-LCA anywhere close to be operationaly useful. A small, single engined lightweight fighter, with just 7 weaponstations is simply a crappy base to develop a carrier fighter.
Now with all the changes it's far away from being small or light and to counter the lack of weaponstations with as much internal fuel as possible to free stations and I recently stated that it would be difficult to get the NLCA MK2 below 8000Kg, but if Kartik's infos are correct, it's even worse than I expected, with the NLCA NP2 as he stated already weighing around 7900Kg. 
LCA MK1 (IAF version) is given with a loaded weight of 9800Kg, if the NP2 is 1400Kg heavier, the loaded weight logically would be at 11200Kg. With a MTOW still around 13000Kg, it hardly leaves 1800Kg payload!


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## sancho

> *Induction of LCA Tejas*
> 
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has completed Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) on 20th December 2013 and the first Series Production Aircraft has been handed over to Chief of Air Staff by Raksha Mantri on 17th January 2015.
> 
> The aircraft performance trials, for operational clearance, involves cold weather and hot weather evaluation. Aircraft has successfully completed hot weather trials at an ambience of 45-47 degree Celsius and cold weather trials at an ambience of -15 degree Celsius.
> 
> The Government has sanctioned Rs. 2188.00 crore for Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) – Phase-I Programme to design and develop two Technology Demonstrators (TDs), and Rs. 5777.56 crore for Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) – Phase-II Programme. The objectives of Phase-II are fabrication of three Prototypes Vehicles (PVs), establishment of production facility at HAL for production of eight aircraft per year and manufacturing and delivery of eight Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Smt Sasikala Pushpa in Rajya Sabha today.



Print Release

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## PARIKRAMA

*Russian co. offers joint development of Active Phased Array Radar for LCA Tejas*

During Aero India 2015, a delegation of Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET), a part of Rostec State Corporation, held a series of negotiations with the representatives of Indian companies on the modernisation of the country’s air force fleet. At the end of the meetings, many agreements on developing cooperation with potential customers were struck.

India is one of priority markets for KRET. The military-technical cooperation between the two countries goes back half a century, and the Indian Air Force is widely using Russian equipment, Nikolay Kolesov, General Director of KRET, said. KRET is ready for broad cooperation with local companies, including the development of joint projects within the ‘Made in India’ policy framework, announced by the country’s leadership.

KRET products have generated great interest among Indian professionals from leading companies, including Bharat Electronics Limited, DARE (Defence Avionics Research Establishment), HAL, Indian Avitronics and DEFSYS. A number of them have signed joint cooperation protocols.

Questions of import substitution and after-sale service of Russian MiG-29K and MiG-29UPG, Su-30MKI and Ka-31 helicopters were the key issues during talks between KRET and the representatives of Samtel and Data Patterns. In particular, the company Data Patterns and KRET discussed the possibility of joint development of AFAR-equipped radar for the Indian aircraft LCA MK2 (Tejas), as well as the integration of IFF systems developed by Data Patterns. KRET specialises in latest innovations in the system of Identification of friend or foe.

During their meetings, KRET and the representatives of Indian Avitronics and DEFSYS touched upon the questions of modernisation of avionics on Soviet and Russian-made aircrafts. The negotiations resulted in the decision of the Indian side to send KRET the inquiry regarding the possibility of upgrading the helicopters Mi-8, Mi-17 and Ka-31 and aircrafts Su-30MKI and MiG-21. In particular, the KRET offered the Indian side the new onboard indicators for the Mi-8 and Mi-17, inertial navigation system INS-2000 for Ka-31 and the MK-Compass routing system for MiG-21.

KRET products are well known in India due to India-Russia military-technical cooperation. KRET is developing the onboard systems for the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) for the Indian Air Force. During Aero India-2015. The Concern was able to attract attention to its civil products as well. For instance, the forum’s hosts showed much interest in the onboard data acquisition systems for civil aircraft of MZBN type (the black box). The technical characteristics of KRET’s flight recorders are comparable with foreign counterparts by L3 Communications (USA), TELEDYNE CONTROLS (USA), Curtiss-Wright (USA).

The aero show also saw KRET presenting several unique developments such as President-S complex, created for the aircrafts and helicopters defence from missiles with infrared homing, and the on-board radar Zhuk-AE with active phased array antenna designed for the new generation fighter jets. KRET drew the attention of the host country to the large number of radars like Kopye-21I (Spear-21I) and Zhuk-ME, which are currently in service at the National Air Force, and invited it to modernize the outdated radars in India. This prospect kindled interest in one of the local companies. The two parties considered it rational to sign a memorandum of cooperation in the framework of the proposed projects.

The exhibition was attended by 12 KRET companies, including Avionika concern, Fazotron-NIIR corporation, Aerokosmicheskoe Oborudovanie corporation, KRRTI, Gradient RI, Electroavtomatika OKB, Aviaavtomatika im V.V. Tarasova, JSC Ramensky Instrument Engineering Plant, JSC Ramenskoe Design Bureau, NIIAO Institute of Aircraft Equipment, Ekran RI, Aeropribor-Voshod.

Russian co. offers joint development of Active Phased Array Radar for LCA Tejas - IBC World News

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## PARIKRAMA

GE Engines for LCA MK1 (404IN20), LCA MK2 (414INS6) and proposed AMCA (414EPE)

*GE Engines for LCA MK1 (404IN20), LCA MK2 (414INS6) and proposed AMCA (414EPE)*


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## GORKHALI



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## Ind4Ever

GORKHALI said:


>


Very good pic.

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## Superboy

SP-2 this year or next year?


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## sancho

Superboy said:


> SP-2 this year or next year?



SP 2,3 and 4 will come this year.

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## Storm Force

And 8 sps in 2016.
And 9 in 2017
12 in 2018


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> And 8 sps in 2016.
> And 9 in 2017
> 12 in 2018



Not correct, since the plan is to go up to 16 after 8 next year.

2015 - 4
2016 - 8
2017 - 16
2018 - 16 (12 for IAF, the rest for IN or export)


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## Superboy

sancho said:


> SP 2,3 and 4 will come this year.




This fast? I doubt it.  I think SP-2 this year or next year.


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## GORKHALI

Great Video ,it seems they used Go Pro. @Abingdonboy

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## PARIKRAMA

*Recently LCA has successfully passed cold weather test at Leh with its indigenous fuel starter.
Indigenously build Jet engine starter for LCA Tejas, displayed at Aero India 2015.*



















*'Integrated Life Support System' & 'On-board oxygen generating system' for light combat aircraft LCA*, at Aero India 2015

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## PARIKRAMA

*LCA Navy - Nothing Succeeds Like Failure Redefined as Success!*




LCA Navy NP2 fighter at Aero India 2015

The LCA Navy was an ill-conceived project that should have failed, and it did!

A naval fighter has to be designed and built for carrier operation from the ground up, not as an afterthought, as was the case with LCA Navy.

Strengthening the LCA for carrier operations proved to be a nightmare for ADA. The aircraft's undercarriage (u/c) - required to perform flareless landings with a high sink rate of 7.1 rn/sec, - became grotesquely over-sized because of its positioning in the fuselage. (Compare the u/c of LCA Navy Mk-1 above with that of the Tejas LCA below. The former looks oversized, the latter, elegant.)




Tejas LCA on short finals at Aero India 2015


The strengthened u/c added weight and lowered the aircraft's performance. As a result, LCA Navy is never going to be operationally deployed on an aircraft carrier - it's very limited weapon load, range and performance wouldn't justify such deployment.




Close up of LCA Navy NP2 undercarriage at Aero India 2015

*Success from Failure*

Failure of an endeavor is often just a turning point on the road to success. Failure is never absolute; it can at best be defined as lack of success. Sometimes, failure can even be redefined as success.

The Indian Government sanctioned Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) of Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Navy), capable of operating from an aircraft carrier, on March 28, 2003 with a PDC of March 27, 2010. Had the Indian Government defined LCA Navy as a technology demonstrator project, which is what it has ended up becoming, there would have been no doubt about the resounding success of the project!

As a technology demonstrator project, the LCA leaped out of doldrums when Navy Prototype 1 (NP-1) successfully executed its first ski-jump take-off at the SBTF in Goa on December 20, 2014.

_*NP-1 attempted the ski-jump after a 300-m roll in clean configuration presumably with full internal fuel. The safe take-off required 150 knot at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft bested the benchmark with a climb rate of around 11 degrees.*

*The flight also validated the hands-off take-off algorithm of LCA Navy's Flight Control Software (FCS).*_




LCA Navy NP1 trainer performs maiden ski jump at SBTF in Goa. Photo Credit: DRDO


*Reason for Better than Expected Performance*
Press reports on the better than expected climb performance of NP1 have been confusing. Here is simple and precise explanation.

*The LCA's GE-F-404-IN20 engine needs be at 80% RPM for around 5-min for it to give assured peak thrust at full throttle. Since it's not practical for an operational aircraft to wait for 5 mins before take-off, ADA had factored in the lower than max thrust when calculating expected rate and angle of climb on leaving the ramp. The aircraft designers were pleasantly surprised when due to higher than expected thrust NP1 outperformed the conservative calculations.

It's now clear that LCA Navy Mk-1 could carry more weapons and fuel than initially thought.*

At Aero India 2015, IDP Sentinel asked LCA Navy Project Director Commodore CD Balaji if the better than expected performance could result in the aircraft being operationally deployed on a carrier, were the LCA Navy Mk-2 project to be delayed.

"LCA Navy Mk-2 will not be delayed," said Balaji with a lot of confidence. "We are close to freezing its design, which has been simplified. The new design would be easy to implement."



*LCA Navy Mk-2*

Commodore Balaji's confidence was eye-opening - *The biggest pay-off from the LCA Navy project may well be ADA's increasing confidence in its ability to tweak fighter aircraft design to squeeze out better performance. This is evident from the following

LCA Navy Mk-2 has been designed from the ground up as a Navy fighter, independently of Tejas LCA Mk-2.

The fuselage of the aircraft has been broadened and the wing roots moved outwards. As a result, aircraft design has been optimized for supersonic flight with perfect conformance to area rule. (Tejas LCA and LCA Navy Mk-1 do not conform perfectly to area ruling resulting in high supersonic drag.)*




LCA Navy Mk-2 scale model at Aero India 2015. 

_*Mid section fuselage broadening allows undercarriage bays to be shifted outwards, allowing a simpler, straight and light undercarriage as in the Rafale.

Mid section fuselage broadening also increases fuel capacity.

That is three birds with one stone!*_

Look closely at the photo of LCA Navy Mk-2 scale model at Aero India 2015, and compare it with the similar view of the LCA Navy Mk-1 on static display at Aero India 2015._* Notice how the air intakes in the Mk-2 model bulge out to align with the broadened fuselage.*_




LCA Navy NP2 at Aero India 2015

Finally, the following design layout of LCA Mk-2 from a brochure distributed during Aero India 2015 clarifies what I have stated above about the design tweaks.







Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: LCA Navy - Nothing Succeeds Like Failure Redefined as Success!

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## Storm Force

Tejss navy looks better than tejss air force.

We need to make this work 

Umm.sick abd tired of being ripped off by the Russians and French etc


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## Aarush

With three consecutive start-ups of its engine after overnight soak in extreme cold (around -15ºC) conditions of Ladakh, that too without any external assistance, Tejas, the Indian Light Combat Aircraft has achieved yet another and a rare distinction. Starting the fighter aircraft under such extreme condition without any external assistance or heating is a technology breakthrough. The requirements become further stringent when the starting is to be done three times consecutively with a partially charged battery. Team LCA led by AERD&C of HAL, and members from ADA, NFTC, IAF, CEMILAC and DGAQA have succeeded in achieving this.

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## Ind4Ever

Good luck for our baby LCA . We will make him into a most versatile platform for sure .


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## DeathInvader

Wasn't this already posted a while back?


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## utraash

Good going... Just waiting for foc ...


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## thesolar65

I would like to see the after burners of the engines of Tejas!! i.e fire coming out of it!!

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
17-March, 2015 15:02 IST
*Induction of Tejas Fighter Plane in IAF *
Subsequent to the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has handed over the First Series Production (SP1) of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on 17.1.2015. 

The requirement of fighter aircraft is periodically reviewed and it is ensured that the operational requirements of the IAF are met.* The IAF is in the process of inducting additional Su-30 MKI aircraft apart from Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)*. An Inter-Governmental Agreement has been signed with Russian Federation for design, development, production etc. of a Prospective Multi Role Fighter Aircraft. The procurement of Medium Multi role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is also under process. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Rajkumar Dhoot in Rajya Sabha today.

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## Ind4Ever

Hindustani78 said:


> Ministry of Defence
> 17-March, 2015 15:02 IST
> *Induction of Tejas Fighter Plane in IAF *
> Subsequent to the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has handed over the First Series Production (SP1) of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on 17.1.2015.
> 
> The requirement of fighter aircraft is periodically reviewed and it is ensured that the operational requirements of the IAF are met.* The IAF is in the process of inducting additional Su-30 MKI aircraft apart from Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)*. An Inter-Governmental Agreement has been signed with Russian Federation for design, development, production etc. of a Prospective Multi Role Fighter Aircraft. The procurement of Medium Multi role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is also under process.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Rajkumar Dhoot in Rajya Sabha today.



More Sukois ? From previously ordered or its additional orders ?


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## Hindustani78

Ind4Ever said:


> More Sukois ? From previously ordered or its additional orders ?



This statement was issued in 2011 by Ministry of Defense. 

Further contract for supply of additional 40 SU-30 MKI aircraft was concluded with IAF for completion within 2014-15, along with earlier order of 140 aircraft. Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11.


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## Ind4Ever

Hindustani78 said:


> This statement was issued in 2011 by Ministry of Defense.
> 
> Further contract for supply of additional 40 SU-30 MKI aircraft was concluded with IAF for completion within 2014-15, along with earlier order of 140 aircraft. Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11.



But this article dates March 17 2015 ?

Got Ur point anyway


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## GURU DUTT

Tejas ($ 26 million) vs Upgraded mirage-2000 ($ 45 million) by award winning pilot of Indian Airforce Sqn. Leader (Retd.) Suneeth Krishna ........

1.Even if you spend hundred million dollars per plane the radar range of Mirage-2000 will always be smaller than Tejas mk1 due to bigger radome of Tejas .

2.The thrust to weight ratio of upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than tejas mk1 (Higher is better) .

3. Both the Instantaneous turn Rate and Sustained Turn rate of 45 million dollar per plane upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than the 26 million dollar per plane tejas.

4.The wing loading (fighter weight in KG/ wing area in sq meters) of upgraded mirage-2000 will be higher than tejas mk1 (low is good). 
[With Above 3 quality Tejas will always have first look , first lock and capability to fire missile first on enemy aircraft ]

5.The frontal clean config RCS of upgraded mirage-2000 will be 3 times higher than tejas mk1, meaning mirage-2000 can be detected by enemy radar much farther away than tejas.

6.The longest range BVR missile to be fired by mirage-2000 will have way lesser range than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1.

7.The 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont be able to fire the deadly visually cued R-73 E HMDS enabled 90 deg high off bore missile, which was fired by 26 million dollar per plane tejas.

8. the 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont have an equal to DRFM based state of the art EW suit of tejas mk1.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 7h7 hours ago
HAL has been told to increase Tejas output to 16 from next year. But they want more MK-I numbers committed.

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 7h7 hours ago
There is now some preliminary discussion on an improved MK-I with certain new systems and easier maintainability.

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 7h7 hours ago
This will keep the HAL line buzzing till 2022 when Mk-2 production is expected to take off.

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 7h7 hours ago
Discussions with the Americans for developing the F-414 into a higher thrust class engine are underway.

*Saurav Jha* @SJha1618 · 7h7 hours ago
Under DTTI of course. But if the Indian side doesn't get written guarantees the RFP route will be pursued.

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## rockstarIN

GURU DUTT said:


> Tejas ($ 26 million) vs Upgraded mirage-2000 ($ 45 million) by award winning pilot of Indian Airforce Sqn. Leader (Retd.) Suneeth Krishna ........
> 
> 1.Even if you spend hundred million dollars per plane the radar range of Mirage-2000 will always be smaller than Tejas mk1 due to bigger radome of Tejas .
> 
> 2.The thrust to weight ratio of upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than tejas mk1 (Higher is better) .
> 
> 3. Both the Instantaneous turn Rate and Sustained Turn rate of 45 million dollar per plane upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than the 26 million dollar per plane tejas.
> 
> 4.The wing loading (fighter weight in KG/ wing area in sq meters) of upgraded mirage-2000 will be higher than tejas mk1 (low is good).
> [With Above 3 quality Tejas will always have first look , first lock and capability to fire missile first on enemy aircraft ]
> 
> 5.The frontal clean config RCS of upgraded mirage-2000 will be 3 times higher than tejas mk1, meaning mirage-2000 can be detected by enemy radar much farther away than tejas.
> 
> 6.The longest range BVR missile to be fired by mirage-2000 will have way lesser range than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1.
> 
> 7.The 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont be able to fire the deadly visually cued R-73 E HMDS enabled 90 deg high off bore missile, which was fired by 26 million dollar per plane tejas.
> 
> 8. the 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont have an equal to DRFM based state of the art EW suit of tejas mk1.



@sancho

="GURU DUTT, post: 6916587, member: 133902"]Tejas ($ 26 million) vs Upgraded mirage-2000 ($ 45 million) by award winning pilot of Indian Airforce Sqn. Leader (Retd.) Suneeth Krishna ........

1.Even if you spend hundred million dollars per plane the radar range of Mirage-2000 will always be smaller than Tejas mk1 due to bigger radome of Tejas .

*Check here.*

Powerplant*: 1 × F404-GE-IN20 turbofan *
*Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[161] (12,100 lbf)*
*Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[162])*


*Powerplant:* 1 × SNECMA M53-P2 afterburning turbofan 
*Dry thrust:* 64.3 kN (14,500 lbf)
*Thrust with afterburner:* 95.1 kN (21,400 lbf)

2.The thrust to weight ratio of upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than tejas mk1 (Higher is better) .

*Doubtful, will be in same range.*


6.The longest range BVR missile to be fired by mirage-2000 will have way lesser range than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1.

*Miles to go fro Astra to MICA standard*, *by the time meteor will come.*

7.The 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont be able to fire the deadly visually cued R-73 E HMDS enabled 90 deg high off bore missile, which was fired by 26 million dollar per plane tejas.

*Top sight +MICA is as good as R-73*


+ 3500 k.g more loaded weight in M2000.
+ much more range than LCA.

But I believe MK-2 will be more capabler than M2000

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## GURU DUTT

rockstarIN said:


> @sancho
> 
> ="GURU DUTT, post: 6916587, member: 133902"]Tejas ($ 26 million) vs Upgraded mirage-2000 ($ 45 million) by award winning pilot of Indian Airforce Sqn. Leader (Retd.) Suneeth Krishna ........
> 
> 1.Even if you spend hundred million dollars per plane the radar range of Mirage-2000 will always be smaller than Tejas mk1 due to bigger radome of Tejas .
> 
> *Check here.*
> 
> Powerplant*: 1 × F404-GE-IN20 turbofan *
> *Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[161] (12,100 lbf)*
> *Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[162])*
> 
> 
> *Powerplant:* 1 × SNECMA M53-P2 afterburning turbofan
> *Dry thrust:* 64.3 kN (14,500 lbf)
> *Thrust with afterburner:* 95.1 kN (21,400 lbf)
> 
> 2.The thrust to weight ratio of upgraded mirage-2000 will be lower than tejas mk1 (Higher is better) .
> 
> *Doubtful, will be in same range.*
> 
> 
> 6.The longest range BVR missile to be fired by mirage-2000 will have way lesser range than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1.
> 
> *Miles to go fro Astra to MICA standard*, *by the time meteor will come.*
> 
> 7.The 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont be able to fire the deadly visually cued R-73 E HMDS enabled 90 deg high off bore missile, which was fired by 26 million dollar per plane tejas.
> 
> *Top sight +MICA is as good as R-73*
> 
> 
> + 3500 k.g more loaded weight in M2000.
> + much more range than LCA.
> 
> But I believe MK-2 will be more capabler than M2000


well thanks broi knowall that but they are not my views per say 

but anyway i appricate your kind gesture ...thanks again

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## rockstarIN

GURU DUTT said:


> well thanks broi knowall that but they are not my views per say
> 
> but anyway i appricate your kind gesture ...thanks again



Even I would like to see the IAF likes LCA more than M2000.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Anantha Krishnan M *‏@writetake  13h13 hours ago
#PlaneMorning A Tejas stunner captured by @satbasani, one of MoD's talented photo officers in India. @SpokespersonMoD

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## sancho

GURU DUTT said:


> [With Above 3 quality Tejas will always have first look , first lock and capability to fire missile first on enemy aircraft ]



Is this your conclusion or of the sq leader? The higher TWR and lower wingloading might (depends on the final specs of a fully configured LCA MK1 FOC, not some early prototypes without radar, EW or avionics installed) be true, but the higher drag and lower speed will play against the LCA as well.



GURU DUTT said:


> 5.The frontal clean config RCS of upgraded mirage-2000 will be 3 times higher than tejas mk1, meaning mirage-2000 can be detected by enemy radar much farther away than tejas.



Against the older untreated Mirage possibly, but the upgraded one will have a reduced RCS too




GURU DUTT said:


> .The longest range BVR missile to be fired by mirage-2000 will have way lesser range than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1



Wrong, once because Astra is still not ready and that's why the aim is on inducting Derby, but also because MICA has a range of around 60 to 70 Km, reported from Mirage export customers, French source claim even up to 80Km. So all 3, MICA, Derby and Astra in it's initial versions will fall in pretty much the same range class between 60 and 80Km. However, the real difference is the missile load capability, where an LCA in A2A config can carry 4 BVR missiles + 2 WVR at max, while a Mirage can carry 8 x MICA all BVR and WVR capable. Moreover, the LCA can't carry any BVR missile in strike config, while the Mirage carries 5 to 6 x MICAs in any role.



GURU DUTT said:


> 7.The 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont be able to fire the deadly visually cued R-73 E HMDS enabled 90 deg high off bore missile, which was fired by 26 million dollar per plane tejas.



Complete nonsense! IAF Mirage have reportedly integrated R73s before, but MICA will be far superior to them, with a HOBS capability of up to 90° while R73s have less than half of that.



GURU DUTT said:


> 8. the 45 million dollar per plane upgraded Mirage-2000 still wont have an equal to DRFM based state of the art EW suit of tejas mk1



That depends on what IAF is integrating as part of the EW upgrade, we know that UAE's M2K-9s have that capability for a long time and our upgrade is said to be close to theirs.


LCA was designed and developed as a 4th gen fighter, with the good flight performance in mind that the IAF requires from it's fighters. So it's not really surprising that it has advantages over an older design in some areas, that can only be upgraded to 4th gen standard. But that doesn't make it automatically superior by all means and to compare them mainly on the fly away cost vs the overhaul / upgrade / ToT cost is silly itself. IAF knows very well how important this fighter is, apart of the MKI today and at least till the end of this decade, which makes the upgrade inevitable and completelly unrelated to LCA MK1s development and induction (by 2018).

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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## nik22

^^ This guy at MOD has got skills.

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## Ind4Ever

Stunning clicks !!! 2nd pic is one of a kind . Never seen it before ... very clear and classy 



SpArK said:


>


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## Water Car Engineer



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## PARIKRAMA

Twin engine Stealth Concept of LCA Tejas which comes with Internal Weapons bay . Looks like Hybrid between Mig-25 Air-frame and LCA Tejas Wings . Looks like its optimized for Mach 3 flight

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## Manindra

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/579708335965917184
In Grippen & F-18 Engine can be changed in 15 minutes, we need more improvement in this.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/579707810377658369

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## Agent_47



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## ni8mare

Manindra said:


> *In Grippen & F-18 Engine can be changed in 15 minutes, we need more improvement in this.*


any source for this ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Manindra said:


> In Grippen & F-18 Engine can be changed in 15 minutes, we need more improvement in this.



Source on this pls

BTW there are so many variables involving not only just engine change but every kind of maintenance man hours (MMH) that it'll be hard to narrow it down to solid numbers to publish accurately.

Like Few things to consider such as 
Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
Maintainers you have (newbies, oldies, trained?)
Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)
Polices in place where you are, when you are there.

All of these things will make those numbers go up or down. The single most important factor among this is the day in and day out maintenance schedule and training involved in simulated combat environment. The harder the training and more the experienced maintainers the greater the efficiency and quicker is the turn around.

LCA for god sake atm does not even have a proper manual being handed over. Let IAF buddies play with at least a squadron and let them go through every nook and corner of the bird and maintenance schedules. Let the then train themselves day in and day out and then quote a veteran maintainer speaking numbers of MMH. Even then he will quote different set of low and high as per different conditions including variables like climate which may play indeed decisive factor for eg. MMH data at Leh will be different from say Jamnagar. We can only come to a mean or median of estimates at best.

Of course most of the folks like Gripen and F18/F16 or others who have an ulterior motive and a agenda may fudge the numbers to support their claims of MMH. Its simply to make different customers/end users/airforces buy more of these birds, apply MLU's or scrap existing fleet birds and lure them to select their marketed product, etc

Ultimately its a veteran maintainer whose word holds the highest value. If he says that MMH can be improved with more simplistic configuration then IAF should convey that feedback to HAL and improve the bird in future production. If the maintainer is fine in different set of conditions then the median of MMH for different specs like oil change engine change refueling ordnance reload etc etc would be known. We can then may be compare birds within India for better understanding. But no point comparing MMH of different countries as conditions and schedule are very different.. Even a veteran maintainer would point that for sure..


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## jarves

4 hours for engine change in Tejas?.I heard somewhere that it takes 3 days .

Gripen in comparison takes only half an hour.


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## Manindra

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source on this pls
> 
> BTW there are so many variables involving not only just engine change but every kind of maintenance man hours (MMH) that it'll be hard to narrow it down to solid numbers to publish accurately.
> 
> Like Few things to consider such as
> Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
> Maintainers you have (newbies, oldies, trained?)
> Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)
> Polices in place where you are, when you are there.
> 
> All of these things will make those numbers go up or down. The single most important factor among this is the day in and day out maintenance schedule and training involved in simulated combat environment. The harder the training and more the experienced maintainers the greater the efficiency and quicker is the turn around.
> 
> LCA for god sake atm does not even have a proper manual being handed over. Let IAF buddies play with at least a squadron and let them go through every nook and corner of the bird and maintenance schedules. Let the then train themselves day in and day out and then quote a veteran maintainer speaking numbers of MMH. Even then he will quote different set of low and high as per different conditions including variables like climate which may play indeed decisive factor for eg. MMH data at Leh will be different from say Jamnagar. We can only come to a mean or median of estimates at best.
> 
> Of course most of the folks like Gripen and F18/F16 or others who have an ulterior motive and a agenda may fudge the numbers to support their claims of MMH. Its simply to make different customers/end users/airforces buy more of these birds, apply MLU's or scrap existing fleet birds and lure them to select their marketed product, etc
> 
> Ultimately its a veteran maintainer whose word holds the highest value. If he says that MMH can be improved with more simplistic configuration then IAF should convey that feedback to HAL and improve the bird in future production. If the maintainer is fine in different set of conditions then the median of MMH for different specs like oil change engine change refueling ordnance reload etc etc would be known. We can then may be compare birds within India for better understanding. But no point comparing MMH of different countries as conditions and schedule are very different.. Even a veteran maintainer would point that for sure..



Currently I am unable to provide source but @sancho & @MilSpec can clarify on this.



jarves said:


> 4 hours for engine change in Tejas?.I heard somewhere that it takes 3 days .
> 
> Gripen in comparison takes only half an hour.


Its 2 hours not 4 hours.


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## PARIKRAMA




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## rockstarIN

Whats the status of FOC now?

Only BVR, refuel on air is left (major)?


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## migflug

*IAF all set to raise first squadron of indigenous fighter Tejas*
Published March 23, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : UNI






With its fighter squadron strength dwindling and finalisation of medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) still eluding, the Indian Air Force has sped up its plan to raise the first squadron of indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Sources in the Defence Ministry told UNI that the IAF was planning to raise the first squadron of the aircraft by next year after getting the delivery of at least six Tejas in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has already delivered the first IOC-standard aircraft to IAF in January this year.

Rest of the five Tejas of same configuration are likely to be handed over to it by this financial year end, the sources said. The first squadron of Tejas will be rechristened as Squadron 45 and it would be called ‘Flying Daggers’. Keeping the logistical issues in mind, the squadron will be based in Bangalore so that the HAL may be called into service at any given point to sort out the teething problems if any, an IAF official said, adding that subsequently, the squadron would be shifted to Sulur base of the IAF.

First squadron of LCA was likely to be declared fully operational in 2022 when all of its 18 aircraft would be upgraded to final operational clearance (FOC) configuration, the sources said. In the meantime, the IAF would start raising the second squadron of Tejas, comprising 18 aircraft of FOC-standard.

The second Tejas squadron of 20 FOC-standard is likely to become fully operational by 2020. It was officially communicated to one of the parliamentary panel recently that the IAF’s fighter squadron strength has come down to 34 against the authorised strength of 42 combat squadrons.

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## skynet

rockstarIN said:


> Whats the status of FOC now?
> 
> Only BVR, refuel on air is left (major)?


Gun firing also


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## Superboy

migflug said:


> First squadron of LCA was likely to be declared fully operational in 2022




12 years after JF-17 first squadron active in February 2010? Still a long to way catch up to Pakistan and China.


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## ni8mare

Superboy said:


> 12 years after JF-17 first squadron active in February 2010? Still a long to way catch up to Pakistan and China.


DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022


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## Superboy

ni8mare said:


> DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022




It says 2022, not 2018.


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## ni8mare

who says? any tom d!ck harry can write as many article they can..........will not change the fact that sqn will be raised in 2018


Superboy said:


> It says 2022, not 2018.


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## MilSpec

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source on this pls
> 
> BTW there are so many variables involving not only just engine change but every kind of maintenance man hours (MMH) that it'll be hard to narrow it down to solid numbers to publish accurately.
> 
> Like Few things to consider such as
> Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
> Maintainers you have (newbies, oldies, trained?)
> Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)
> Polices in place where you are, when you are there.
> 
> All of these things will make those numbers go up or down. The single most important factor among this is the day in and day out maintenance schedule and training involved in simulated combat environment. The harder the training and more the experienced maintainers the greater the efficiency and quicker is the turn around.
> 
> LCA for god sake atm does not even have a proper manual being handed over. Let IAF buddies play with at least a squadron and let them go through every nook and corner of the bird and maintenance schedules. Let the then train themselves day in and day out and then quote a veteran maintainer speaking numbers of MMH. Even then he will quote different set of low and high as per different conditions including variables like climate which may play indeed decisive factor for eg. MMH data at Leh will be different from say Jamnagar. We can only come to a mean or median of estimates at best.
> 
> Of course most of the folks like Gripen and F18/F16 or others who have an ulterior motive and a agenda may fudge the numbers to support their claims of MMH. Its simply to make different customers/end users/airforces buy more of these birds, apply MLU's or scrap existing fleet birds and lure them to select their marketed product, etc
> 
> Ultimately its a veteran maintainer whose word holds the highest value. If he says that MMH can be improved with more simplistic configuration then IAF should convey that feedback to HAL and improve the bird in future production. If the maintainer is fine in different set of conditions then the median of MMH for different specs like oil change engine change refueling ordnance reload etc etc would be known. We can then may be compare birds within India for better understanding. But no point comparing MMH of different countries as conditions and schedule are very different.. Even a veteran maintainer would point that for sure..



Hello.

Handing over a production unit by HAL and prototype unit by ADA to IAF has some key differences.
When HAL hands over an aircraft, it establishes a maintenance and operations program with comprehensive Operating Manual (OM) which includes referenced sub OM's for faults and specific sub system retrofit and replacement, general information, rigging information, fluid and consumables specification, and sub OM's, which includes Pre flight check protocols, FCU alarms and diagnostics, spares list, to name a few; are released to respective base repair depots and squadron stations.

HAL also trains IAF technicians, for 3 - 6 months program in the actual final assembly for subject product line. The training program is very detailed and HAL also provides service technicians on site at the request of IAF during product launch.

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Whats the status of FOC now?
> 
> Only BVR, refuel on air is left (major)?



- new nose
- IFR probe
- full certification of the radar
- addition of BVR missiles
- full certification of the gun
- full certification of 26° AoA
- most likely twin pylons for A2G weapons
- integration of MAWS if I'm not wrong
- reportedly a last cold weather trial



ni8mare said:


> DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022



Just ignore it and stick to topic.

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## Manindra

sancho said:


> - new nose
> - IFR probe
> - full certification of the radar
> - addition of BVR missiles
> - full certification of the gun
> - full certification of 26° AoA
> - most likely twin pylons for A2G weapons
> - integration of MAWS if I'm not wrong
> - reportedly a last cold weather trial



Last cold weather trail completed
Ground gun firing video available but no other news.
They report MAWS on their official brochure & its never reported that its not integrated
Rest status are unknown
@sancho can't they mount Python 4 on wingtip of tejas, which weights only 100 kg

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## sancho

Manindra said:


> can't they mount Python 4 on wingtip of tejas, which weights only 100 kg



Python V, of course they can, if they will is another issue, reports on that from Indian officials are not clear. Most likely they will remain with R73s, which are integrated, available throughout the fleet and good enough at this point. So Derby and Griffin LGBs, til Astra and an indigenous LGB will be ready.


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## Manindra

sancho said:


> Python V, of course they can, if they will is another issue, reports on that from Indian officials are not clear. Most likely they will remain with R73s, which are integrated, available throughout the fleet and good enough at this point. So Derby and Griffin LGBs, til Astra and an indigenous LGB will be ready.


But Russia denied source code of R73 & its official derby would be BVRAAM & Python would be WVRAAM, & Astra would replace derby in its role but no replace of Python currently.
There are Sufficient space that they can mount Python on wing tip.


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## sancho

Manindra said:


> But Russia denied source code of R73 & its official derby would be BVRAAM & Python would be WVRAAM, & Astra would replace derby in its role but no replace of Python currently.
> There are Sufficient space that they can mount Python on wing tip.



You are confusing R77 BVR missiles and R73 WVR missiles. R73s are already integrated to the fighter and the HMS system, while Derby is meant to be the BVR addition. 
LCA won't get a wingtip station, since that requires additional changes to the wing structure, so that was ruled out. So 6 x wingstations, the external once for WVR missiles, the inner once for fueltanks, which leaves just the midwing station either for BVR missiles or bombs. That's the main drawback for LCA, that can only be countered if the internal fuel capacity can be increased to a useful extend in the MK2.

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## Manindra

sancho said:


> You are confusing R77 BVR missiles and R73 WVR missiles. R73s are already integrated to the fighter and the HMS system, while Derby is meant to be the BVR addition.
> LCA won't get a wingtip station, since that requires additional changes to the wing structure, so that was ruled out. So 6 x wingstations, the external once for WVR missiles, the inner once for fueltanks, which leaves just the midwing station either for BVR missiles or bombs. That's the main drawback for LCA, that can only be countered if the internal fuel capacity can be increased to a useful extend in the MK2.


LIVEFIST: LCA Tejas Sports Python & Derby


> India's LCA Tejas twin-seat trainer mock-up on display at Aero India 2013 for the first time shows it alongside a Rafael Python-5 IR short-range air-to-air missile and a Rafael Derby BVRAAM. The latter is a stopgap in the event that the Astra isn't delivered on time, and also for testing requirements. Also on the mockup are the R-73 and the Astra.
> 
> Journalist Tamir Eshel over at Defense Update reports, "_Assuming the Astra missile currently developed for the aircraft not meet the full flight envelope performance goals, the IAF and Indian Naval Aviation are integrating the *Derby and Python 5 missiles on the aircraft, along with Russian R73 that was slated for the aircraft from the beginning, to meet the required full-operational capabilities level for the fighter.* These weapons will be needed primarily to meet the Indian Navy requirement for carrier air defense, as the LCA will begin to replace the Sea Harriers that currently carry those missions with these weapons_."


This Article says that python would also integrated along with R73.
In tejas we need extra Hard Point specially in strike configuration & I don't think its very hard for them for adding 100 Kg missile on wing tip, even JF 17 hold 200 kg SD10A on its wing tip.


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## sancho

Manindra said:


> This Article says that python would also integrated along with R73.



Which is based on an Israeli journalist, who is known to make PR for Rafael, but so far no other missile than R60 and R73 were integrated and reports from Aero India discussions with Indian pilots or officials, still say Derby only. Anyway, Python V or not doesn't make much difference anyway, I had prefered MICA IR / Maitri IR, since that would had offered WVR and BVR capability at the same time.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Which is based on an Israeli journalist, who is known to make PR for Rafael, but so far no other missile than R60 and R73 were integrated and reports from Aero India discussions with Indian pilots or officials, still say Derby only. Anyway, Python V or not doesn't make much difference anyway, I had prefered MICA IR / Maitri IR, since that would had offered WVR and BVR capability at the same time.



Even Derby can also used as a WVr missile.

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Even Derby can also used as a WVr missile.



No it can't, it might have some commonality with Python V, but is not geared for WVR combats. MICA missiles on the other side are identical in both versions, except for the seeker. That's why the EM version still has TVC to be highly agile in WVR combats, while the IR version still has the same range for BVR combats. This level of identical parts brings operational advantages, with the downside of higher costs. MICA IR is more costly than comparable WVR IR missiles.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> No it can't, it might have some commonality with Python V, but is not geared for WVR combats. MICA missiles on the other side are identical in both versions, except for the seeker. That's why the EM version still has TVC to be highly agile in WVR combats, while the IR version still has the same range for BVR combats. This level of identical parts brings operational advantages, with the downside of higher costs. MICA IR is more costly than comparable WVR IR missiles.


I do understand the uniqueness of MICA'S. But derby is derived from python 4 with an active radar seeker And unlike other bvr active radar missiles it weights only 118 k.g thus fitting at wingtips.


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## #hydra#

can any body please tell me how KAI-FA50 compares with tejas,according to wiki specs both are having comparable price,similar engine,radar and similar other specifications.

I am new to this forum( this may be a dumb query, pls forgive me)


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## NKVD

#hydra# said:


> can any body please tell me how KAI-FA50 compares with tejas,according to wiki specs both are having comparable price,similar engine,radar and similar other specifications.
> 
> I am new to this forum( this may be a dumb query, pls forgive me)


No tejas Is Edges in both Engine and EW although they have Similar radar but Mk-I's multi-mode radar (MMR) (which has an indigenous antenna and scanner but an Elta EL/M-2032 processing back end) achieve 60 per cent more range than with the latter.

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## #hydra#

NKVD said:


> No tejas Is Edges both Engine and EW although they have Similar radar but Mk-I's multi-mode radar (MMR) (which has an indigenous antenna and scanner but an Elta EL/M-2032 processing back end) achieve 60 per cent more range than with the latter.


Tnq


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## sudhir007



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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> I do understand the uniqueness of MICA'S. But derby is derived from python 4 with an active radar seeker And unlike other bvr active radar missiles it weights only 118 k.g thus fitting at wingtips.



As I said, it has "some" commonalities, but is designed for a complete different purpose. Python V is shorter and lighter than Derby, because it doesn't require more fuel for BVR ranges. Instead it has additional fins, to make it more manuverable in close combats.


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## migflug



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## Storm Force

Great picture very nice fighter. Is this a pv or sp ie prototype or the seriel production one

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## sathya

migflug said:


> View attachment 208115



Is the gun in craft new or already all Lsp s have gun?


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## Abingdonboy

migflug said:


> View attachment 208115


She looks brand spanking new.


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## topgun047

migflug said:


> View attachment 208115


This one seems to have much less ugly white patches over the wings to measure stress on the airframe.
Perhaps they have finished the ultra extensive stress calculations.

This is what I am talking about.Notice white patches all over the wings.











One of the advantages of delta wing, in addition to providing higher lift and instantaneous turn rate, it also reduces the stress on the airframe as compared to a conventional wing.


This coupled with high usage of composites means, high availability, cheaper maintenance and longer service life for the plane.
Its ironical that after more than half a century of license building mostly Russian planes, HAL builds a jet that follows western ethos.

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## #hydra#

topgun047 said:


> This one seems to have much less ugly white patches over the wings to measure stress on the airframe.
> Perhaps they have finished the ultra extensive stress calculations.
> 
> This is what I am talking about.Notice white patches all over the wings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the advantages of delta wing, in addition to providing higher lift and instantaneous turn rate, it also reduces the stress on the airframe as compared to a conventional wing.
> 
> 
> This coupled with high usage of composites means, high availability, cheaper maintenance and longer service life for the plane.
> Its ironical that after more than half a century of license building mostly Russian planes, HAL builds a jet that follows western ethos.


Read earlier that LCA is more draggy when compared to other delta wing ac,which was the reason for its limited combat range(300 km I think)
Did they solved the issue or not?any Idea


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## Srinivas

The white patches are for measuring stress on the wings ?



topgun047 said:


> This one seems to have much less ugly white patches over the wings to measure stress on the airframe.
> Perhaps they have finished the ultra extensive stress calculations.
> 
> This is what I am talking about.Notice white patches all over the wings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the advantages of delta wing, in addition to providing higher lift and instantaneous turn rate, it also reduces the stress on the airframe as compared to a conventional wing.
> 
> 
> This coupled with high usage of composites means, high availability, cheaper maintenance and longer service life for the plane.
> Its ironical that after more than half a century of license building mostly Russian planes, HAL builds a jet that follows western ethos.


----------



## topgun047

#hydra# said:


> Read earlier that LCA is more draggy when compared to other delta wing ac,which was the reason for its limited combat range(300 km I think)
> Did they solved the issue or not?any Idea



Tejas navy Mk2 has worked around range problem by enlarging the fusleage which

1.Ensures full compliance to area rule which decreases drag at all speeds.They also put a hump behind the cockpit in Mk 1 for the same reason.As far as I know they haven't decided how to best use the space in the hump yet.Probably they will put a EW module there.

2.Provides more room for internal fuel.

Air force Mk2 is intended to be used as point interceptor mainly so it does not need as much range as navy
Instead they are focusing on increasing agility for air force Mk 2



Srinivas said:


> The white patches are for measuring stress on the wings ?



Thats what I said.

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## uparyupari

#hydra# said:


> Read earlier that LCA is more draggy when compared to other delta wing ac,which was the reason for its limited combat range(300 km I think)
> Did they solved the issue or not?any Idea



No, the current range is only 200 km. We are planing to remove the wings completely and turn it into a missile.


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## ZooZoo

#hydra# said:


> Read earlier that LCA is more draggy when compared to other delta wing ac,which was the reason for its limited combat range(300 km I think)
> Did they solved the issue or not?any Idea




It's a tiny-miny aircraft, what do u want from it? 2000Km range?? And what is mid-air refueling for???


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## babbar

Jamati attention whores are truly pathetic.


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## #hydra#

ZooZoo said:


> It's a tiny-miny aircraft, what do u want from it? 2000Km range?? And what is mid-air refueling for???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do u mean Bangladesh???
> 
> How many times we have told you all delta wing aircraft are not Mirage...


nope,but 300 km is far too less for a fighter I think, I may be wrong. but as per wiki(I know wiki is not 100% reliable) gripen is having combat radius of 800km,which is a similar class aircraft using same engine.


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## Guynextdoor2

#hydra# said:


> nope,but 300 km is far too less for a fighter I think, I may be wrong. but as per wiki(I know wiki is not 100% reliable) gripen is having combat radius of 800km,which is a similar class aircraft using same engine.
> 
> 
> 
> oh fine ,thank u...



@sancho can you comment on combat radius? Your take?


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## jarves

#hydra# said:


> nope,but 300 km is far too less for a fighter I think, I may be wrong. but as per wiki(I know wiki is not 100% reliable) gripen is having combat radius of 800km,which is a similar class aircraft using same engine.
> oh fine ,thank u...



@ZooZoo and @#hydra# .Save this.

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## SuperSubrayan

#hydra# said:


> nope,but 300 km is far too less for a fighter I think, I may be wrong. but as per wiki(I know wiki is not 100% reliable) gripen is having combat radius of 800km,which is a similar class aircraft using same engine.
> 
> 
> 
> oh fine ,thank u...



Dude 300 km is the radius of Tejas ! Only with internal fuel . Which means we will cover or under take operation at our both the borders . With internal and external fuel pods we can equip our Tejas for various operations. So its a true Light weight Multi role fighter in the world ! MK2 will be a different beast given what our neighbours have . Exclude China . We have different beast for them .

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## #hydra#

aazidane said:


> A poor man's mirage, I guess you can call it the Indian Mirage..





jarves said:


> @ZooZoo and @#hydra# .Save this.
> 
> View attachment 209786


ok.... good


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## Dazzler

SuperSubrayan said:


> Dude 300 km is the radius of Tejas ! Only with internal fuel . Which means we will cover or under take operation at our both the borders . With internal and external fuel pods we can equip our Tejas for various operations. So its a true Light weight Multi role fighter in the world ! MK2 will be a different beast given what our neighbours have . Exclude China . We have different beast for them .



Do you know what radius is? And please stop calling the poor thing a beast which it is not.


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## Ammyy

Dazzler said:


> Do you know what radius is? And please stop calling the poor thing a beast which it is not.



Poor thing? 

Well I dnt like to compare but it has every thing better as compare to its rival fighter. So you should use word poor thing some where else. Engine, radar, airframe, avionics etc etc.

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## Dazzler

Ammyy said:


> Poor thing?
> 
> Well I dnt like to compare but it has every thing better as compare to its rival fighter. So you should use word poor thing some where else. Engine, radar, airframe, avionics etc etc.



Better such as? Is it proven better? Where?


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## Brahma Bull

Yet another Jf fanboy is here....
Ignore

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## Ammyy

Dazzler said:


> Better such as? Is it proven better? Where?



JF-17 and Lca Tejas: Difference in approach | idrw.org

Different approach for different airforce, you use it as front line fighter but even with better specs LCA yet to find its place in IAF.

Just like your airforce we are also inducting IOC standard fighter in our airforce to start production line.

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## Dazzler

Ammyy said:


> JF-17 and Lca Tejas: Difference in approach | idrw.org
> 
> Different approach for different airforce, you use it as front line fighter but even with better specs LCA yet to find its place in IAF.
> 
> Just like your airforce we are also inducting IOC standard fighter in our airforce to start production line.



The problem is, unless these so called better specs are proven, it is what it is which is that it is an aircraft being tested and here we have people calling beast and what not. Wait for the weapon trials and stuff when it is inducted or as they say, let the chick hatch before assuming things.


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## Ammyy

Dazzler said:


> The problem is, unless these so called better specs are proven, it is what it is which is that it is an aircraft being tested and here we have people calling beast and what not. Wait for the weapon trials and stuff when it is inducted or as they say, let the chick hatch before assuming things.



But you call it a poor thing so just want add other fighters that not even better that LCA (Atleast on paper)

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## Dazzler

Ammyy said:


> But you call it a poor thing so just want add other fighters that not even better that LCA (Atleast on paper)



This proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge.


----------



## Ammyy

Dazzler said:


> This proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge.



Well same can be said for you.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> The problem is, unless these so called better specs are proven, it is what it is which is that it is an aircraft being tested and here we have people calling beast and what not. Wait for the weapon trials and stuff when it is inducted or as they say, let the chick hatch before assuming things.


Do know even know about A of Aircraft, so you better keep up your *ANAl*ysis for PA tanks only.Seriously dude people laugh at your post and you must really keep high standards for your designation you hold here.

*With internal fuel only：*

F-35C：700 NM／1,300 km （AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2）.

F-35A：600 NM／1,100 km （AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2）.

F-35B：450 NM／830 km （AIM-120*2 + 1,000 Ib JDAM*2）.

EF-2000：350 NM／650 km （MRAAM*4 + SRAAM*2 + 7,000 Ib AG weapons, lo-lo-lo）.

F/A-18C/D：350 NM／650 km （2,000 Ib AG weapon*2）.

JAS-39C/D：350 NM／650 km （1,000 Ib AG weapon*3, lo-lo-lo）.

F-16C/D：260 NM／480 km （2,000 Ib AG weapon*2）.

AV-8B：250 NM／460 km （1,000 Ib AG weapon*2）

Modern fighters combat radius; - Page 2

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Do know even know about A of Aircraft, so you better keep up your *ANAl*ysis for PA tanks only.Seriously dude people laugh at your post and you must really keep high standards for your designation you hold here.
> 
> *With internal fuel only：*
> 
> F-35C：700 NM／1,300 km （AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2）.
> 
> F-35A：600 NM／1,100 km （AIM-120*2 + 2,000 Ib JDAM*2）.
> 
> F-35B：450 NM／830 km （AIM-120*2 + 1,000 Ib JDAM*2）.
> 
> EF-2000：350 NM／650 km （MRAAM*4 + SRAAM*2 + 7,000 Ib AG weapons, lo-lo-lo）.
> 
> F/A-18C/D：350 NM／650 km （2,000 Ib AG weapon*2）.
> 
> JAS-39C/D：350 NM／650 km （1,000 Ib AG weapon*3, lo-lo-lo）.
> 
> F-16C/D：260 NM／480 km （2,000 Ib AG weapon*2）.
> 
> AV-8B：250 NM／460 km （1,000 Ib AG weapon*2）
> 
> Modern fighters combat radius; - Page 2



so your source is a cross post form a forum, great going. Praise high to the mighty radiance with 300km range. Lol



Ammyy said:


> Well same can be said for you.



substantiate your claim, i have your post as an evidence of your lack of knowledge.


----------



## Brahma Bull

Dazzler said:


> so your source is a cross post form a forum, great going. Praise high to the mighty radiance with 300km range. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> substantiate your claim, i have your post as an evidence of your lack of knowledge.


What is the combat radius of pakistani fighter ?


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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> so your source is a cross post form a forum, great going. Praise high to the mighty radiance with 300km range. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> substantiate your claim, i have your post as an evidence of your lack of knowledge.


why are you trolling on a news and discussion thread, if you do not have anything to contribute, it might be better to remain quite.

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## Dazzler

MilSpec said:


> why are you trolling on a news and discussion thread, if you do not have anything to contribute, it might be better to remain quite.



its called countering the false info, you as a TA should know this. Get it.


----------



## Ammyy

Dazzler said:


> substantiate your claim, i have your post as an evidence of your lack of knowledge.



You still cant able to prove it wrong that Tejas is better in every aspect against its main rival


----------



## Dazzler

Ammyy said:


> You still cant able to prove it wrong that Tejas is better in every aspect against its main rival


----------



## HariPrasad

Manindra said:


> Last cold weather trail completed
> Ground gun firing video available but no other news.
> They report MAWS on their official brochure & its never reported that its not integrated
> Rest status are unknown
> @sancho can't they mount Python 4 on wingtip of tejas, which weights only 100 kg



It was said that AOA is reaching 26* and aircraft has done 7+g.


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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> its called countering the false info, you as a TA should know this. Get it.


When pakistanis talk about testing and evaluation it is quite laughable, Indian DGQCA and ASHQ requirements are miles and miles ahead of what you can conceive or comprehend and is scary enough to make most of your project engineers pee their pants. I don't want to comment on your great jet fighter that is powered by one engine that powers a three decade old twin engine fighter in our fleet, but you really have no damn clue of what you are talking about and you can take that to the bank....If you want to challenge test results go ahead and be specific in your queries and I will be more than happy to fill in the gaps for you.

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## GORKHALI

MilSpec said:


> When pakistanis talk about testing and evaluation it is quite laughable, Indian DGQCA and ASHQ requirements are miles and miles ahead of what you can conceive or comprehend and is scary enough to make most of your project engineers pee their pants. I don't want to comment on your great jet fighter that is powered by one engine that powers a three decade old fighter in our fleet, but you really have no damn clue of what you are talking about and you can take that to the bank....If you want to challenge test results go ahead and be specific in your queries and I will be more than happy to fill in the gaps for you.


He does't even know what is Combat radius is all about and this guy differ from official news too.I mean what else you can do mate ?

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## Brahma Bull

GORKHALI said:


> He does't even know what is Combat radius is all about and this guy differ from official news too.I mean what else you can do mate ?


Actually combat radius is the only field in which JF 17 excels,although that is debatable.
So these people will never talk about avionics,EW,engine power,aerodynamics...

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## GORKHALI

Brahma Bull said:


> Actually combat radius is the only field in which JF 17 excels,although that is debatable.
> So these people will never talk about avionics,EW,engine power,aerodynamics...


Well thats true but it excel more than f16c/d and Close to Jas 39.But then its still a small plane still lot of potential to upgrade.BTW Just heard ADA planning for LCA Mk1 plus for a bridge between LCA mk2 and LCA Mk1.

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## Brahma Bull

GORKHALI said:


> Well thats true but it excel more than f16c/d and Close to Jas 39.But then its still a small plane still lot of potential to upgrade.BTW Just heard ADA planning for LCA Mk1 plus for a bridge between LCA mk2 and LCA Mk1.


Really ? What are the improvements ?

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## #hydra#

Brahma Bull said:


> Actually combat radius is the only field in which JF 17 excels,although that is debatable.
> So these people will never talk about avionics,EW,engine power,aerodynamics...


What about the gen 10 tech DSI?


----------



## migflug

*GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle*
Published April 1, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)







India’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Russian JSC Rosoboronexport/JSC Klimov have entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint development of Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for future generation aero-engine applications.

MoU was signed during Aero India-2015 held in Bengaluru during 19-22 February 2015. Dr K Tamilmani, DS, DG (Aero), DRDO and Dr CP Ramanarayanan, OS, Director, GTRE and the Russian team were part of the memorandum of understanding (MoU).

According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (KLImov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines.

Sources also informed that thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology offered can be matted with engines of any OEM’s even if engines are from United states. India will commence development work on Homegrown 5th generation fighter aircraft project which as per IAF request will have thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN).

India is yet to select engines for AMCA, but Russians have assured India that even if India selects American or European engines for AMCA Project, they can customise it for their engines. While Europeans have developed their own TVN technology for Eurojet EJ200 engines and Americans to have their own technology.

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## Echo_419

migflug said:


> *GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle*
> Published April 1, 2015 | By admin
> SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Russian JSC Rosoboronexport/JSC Klimov have entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint development of Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for future generation aero-engine applications.
> 
> MoU was signed during Aero India-2015 held in Bengaluru during 19-22 February 2015. Dr K Tamilmani, DS, DG (Aero), DRDO and Dr CP Ramanarayanan, OS, Director, GTRE and the Russian team were part of the memorandum of understanding (MoU).
> 
> According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (KLImov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines.
> 
> Sources also informed that thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology offered can be matted with engines of any OEM’s even if engines are from United states. India will commence development work on Homegrown 5th generation fighter aircraft project which as per IAF request will have thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN).
> 
> India is yet to select engines for AMCA, but Russians have assured India that even if India selects American or European engines for AMCA Project, they can customise it for their engines. While Europeans have developed their own TVN technology for Eurojet EJ200 engines and Americans to have their own technology.



Good news hope they make a good engine this time


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## MilSpec

migflug said:


> According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (KLImov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines.
> .


Maybe they should re imagine the name.


----------



## sancho

Guynextdoor2 said:


> @sancho can you comment on combat radius? Your take?



As Jarves showed, the official figure is 500Km combat radius, but without knowing what the mission profile and the payload is, you can't put that figure in the right relation.



Echo_419 said:


> Good news hope they make a good engine this time



IDRW report, so wait and see. Does anybody really believe that the US will allow Russian systems to be integrated on US engines? Similarly, why should Eurojet allow it, when they have their own TVC system?

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## topgun047

Multi axis meaning 2D, 3D or undecided ?


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## sancho

topgun047 said:


> Multi axis meaning 2D, 3D or undecided ?



Most likely the 3D version that they have developed for the Mig 35 / 29K, which can be fitted to the RD 33MK engine.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> so your source is a cross post form a forum, great going. Praise high to the mighty radiance with 300km range. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> substantiate your claim, i have your post as an evidence of your lack of knowledge.


If you go through the entire thread,people posted lot of different sources to prove their claim which I can't post here.Go and check out yourself.

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## Bilal9

MilSpec said:


> Maybe they should re imagine the name.



Ha ha ha right 

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't think most of those here got your comment...

So is this for the new medium sized stealth fighter (AMCA)?

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## MilSpec

Bilal9 said:


> Ha ha ha right
> 
> Exactly what I was thinking. I don't think most of those here got your comment...
> 
> So is this for the new medium sized stealth fighter (AMCA)?


not sure, could be...


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## topgun047



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## Storm Force

The white LABELS we See

Is this some sort of STRESS FATIGUE test instrument on the composite airframe.

LOVE THE SHOT AND LOOK OF THIS LITTLE FIGHTER

WE really need these in large nos now

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## Dandpatta

The LCA camouflage can take birth with this type of "stuck label" scheme. Serious ! Just make it denser and regular, and voila... Made in India camouflage

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## #hydra#

so we are not going to get thrust vectoring control similar to F22,rt?


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## PARIKRAMA

Progress on LCA Mk.2 cockpit config
_By SP's Special Correspondent_


*April 06, 2015:* The look and feel of the all-glass cockpit that the LCA Tejas Mk.2 will sport is fructifying with the Aeronautical Development Agency announcing that the main display will involve two 6x8 Smart MFDs and one 5x5 smart MFD in centre console "based on the latest and best design technologies currently available in the market". The ADA is looking for a full solution to its SMFD needs for the LCA Mk.2 programme. The capability exists in country, though a competitive process will now ensue. The ADA is looking for active matrix TFT color liquid crystal display SMFDs with separate LED backlight for day and night modes with redundancy for backlighting in both the modes, touch screen capability (will be the first Indian aircraft to sport touch screen panels), anti-reflection coating, full sun readability and night vision capability, compatibility as per NVIS Class B MIL-STD-3009B, EMI protectio, the bezel shall have push buttons, rocker switches and rotary knobs, auto brightness control (ABC) of the display using illumination sensors placed on bezel, capability for windowed image overlay driven by the display processors, dual channel video to support redundant display processors, continuous health monitoring with periodic built-in-test reporting along with its normal operation, provision for operator Initiated Built-In-Test, In-situ programming capability. Conduction Cooled with no external cooling for the entire range of operating temperature.


Progress on LCA Mk.2 cockpit config
- SP's MAI

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## SuperSubrayan

DM says tejas to complete all issues and last test flight in 1 -2 months in an interview to times now while addressing Rafael deal. Looks like we will complete all certifications for tejas in couple of months

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## Manindra



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## migflug

Refueling pod Integrated

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## Manindra

The Beta Coefficient: A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft

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## #hydra#

Tejas future has assured.celebration time for ADA

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## migflug

*Progress on LCA Mk.2 cockpit config*
SOURCE: SP Guide Publications







The look and feel of the all-glass cockpit that the LCA Tejas Mk.2 will sport is fructifying with the Aeronautical Development Agency announcing that the main display will involve two 6×8 Smart MFDs and one 5×5 smart MFD in centre console “based on the latest and best design technologies currently available in the market”.

The ADA is looking for a full solution to its SMFD needs for the LCA Mk.2 programme. The capability exists in country, though a competitive process will now ensue. The ADA is looking for active matrix TFT color liquid crystal display SMFDs with separate LED backlight for day and night modes with redundancy for backlighting in both the modes, touch screen capability (will be the first Indian aircraft to sport touch screen panels), anti-reflection coating, full sun readability and night vision capability, compatibility as per NVIS Class B MIL-STD-3009B, EMI protectio, the bezel shall have push buttons, rocker switches and rotary knobs, auto brightness control (ABC) of the display using illumination sensors placed on bezel, capability for windowed image overlay driven by the display processors, dual channel video to support redundant display processors, continuous health monitoring with periodic built-in-test reporting along with its normal operation, provision for operator Initiated Built-In-Test, In-situ programming capability. Conduction Cooled with no external cooling for the entire range of operating temperature.

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## Hindustani78

Apr 15, 2015, 06.13 AM IST
For LCA Tejas, it’s now about months, not decades - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: India's defence R&D establishment will have to fire on all cylinders to fast-track the meandering Tejas light combat aircraft, which is still not fully operational or combat ready, if it does not want the Narendra Modi government to critically re-examine the entire project. 

The Tejas project, in fact, may even get some competition in the light-weight fighter category. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said "some other single-engine, lighter fighter" other than the home-grown Tejas could also be considered for a "Make in India" project to replace the obsolete MiG-21s. 

Restricting the acquisition of expensive twin-engine French Rafale fighters to just 36 for now, instead of the original plan for 126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), Parrikar stressed he was trying to plug operational gaps in airpower by improving serviceability of "heavy-weight" Sukhoi-30MKIs as well as "pushing" the DRDO-HAL combine to deliver Tejas faster. 

"Don't compare Rafale, a top-end fighter, to MiG-21s, which we will phase out in about six to 10 years. The replacement for MiG-21s will be Tejas or some other single-engine, lighter aircraft. Tejas ki maar bhi kaafi hai (Tejas packs a punch) and it's much better than a MiG-21, but has certain limitations," said Parrikar. 

Though some interpreted this to mean impending doom for the Tejas project, a top official dismissed it by clarifying the government was "just keeping all options open" to make "numbers" with IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons when 44 are needed. "There could be scope for a single-engine fighter, which would be much cheaper than Rafale, somewhere between the capabilities of Rafale and Tejas," he said. 






Incidentally, the original plan was that six squadrons each of MMRCA and Tejas would replace the existing 10 Mig-21 and four MiG-27 squadrons. Parrikar, on his part, said, "In the next four to five years, we can add about six LCA squadrons if we push HAL, which I am doing." 

DRDO-HAL will certainly need to be pushed on the Tejas project since it's critical for self-reliance in defence production. The first Tejas was handed over to IAF on January 17 but it was in "initial operational configuration (IOC)", which signifies its airworthy but not combat-ready. The pilot training and maintenance manuals are also still not ready, delaying its actual induction into IAF. 

The fighter's final operational clearance (FOC), with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well mid-air refuelling capability, is likely to be delayed beyond the re-revised deadline of December 2015. 

The Tejas Mark-II version which the IAF actually wants — with more powerful engines, airframe changes, weight and drag reduction — will begin to come in only by 2021 or so. So, Parrikar will need to do a lot of pushing if he wants swifter deliveries of the multi-role fighters.


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## Ind4Ever

How much is 250 cr in dollars ?


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## mad_max

Ind4Ever said:


> How much is 250 cr in dollars ?


40 million USD

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## Chanakya's_Chant

*Naval LCA carries out ‘hot refuelling’*



Anantha Krishnan M has tweeted last image of Naval LCA carrying out ‘Hot refuelling’ in HAL premises in Bengaluru . Meaning of ‘hot refuelling’ means Fueling With Engines Operating . Hot refueling is performed only when operations require rapid turnaround of aircraft, since hot refuel-ing is significantly more dangerous and costly interms of fuel and manpower expenditures. Only pres-sure hot refueling is performed.

A minimum of three ground crew personnel are required for each hot-refueling operation. ‘Hot refuelling’ becomes necessary in case of missing Aerial mid air refuellers in active combat patrol zone .

Naval LCA carries out ‘hot refuelling’ | idrw.org

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## AMCA

I can forever admire the looks of LCA Tejas Navy. Its a Cute Machine.


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## The_Sidewinder

AMCA said:


> I can forever admire the looks of LCA Tejas Navy. Its a Cute Machine.



Agree. With those little modifications, Naval LCA looks a beauty. :love:

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## Niks

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/588574760402948096

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## rockstarIN

Manindra said:


> The Beta Coefficient: A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft


Man thats alot of information..thanks!












This will answer the query of 'range' of LCA

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## Grevion

Man its a late project hopes it will enter IAF soon.
tejas is a beauty of our homegrown defence


----------



## sudhir007

"

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/588319240471482369"

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## migflug

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 42m 42 minutes ago >>

* Nowhere in the world does so much of the envelope have to be proven for FOC. IAF's policy with regard to this needs to be reviewed.
* To refine a combat jet. Everybody learns and the combat jet becomes better.
* Everybody tries to get their homegrown fighter into some sort of squadron service and series production first. Bcoz that is the real way.
* Our favorite R&D org is trying its best to complete hawa bahadur's changing requirements by end 2015.
* Our bird is yet to fire new laaang range A2A because of Yehudi non-delivery. Stocks from Naavik Sena will be used now.
* People at our favorite R&D organization are completely demoralized at the moment. They sounded quite dejected. Talked to them this morning.
* Any move to sideline Tejas with an imported design would be nothing short of the Weimar betrayal.
* Why does a radome need to be changed right at the end of a program? And how many jets have had to be IFR qualified before FOC ?
* I just hope the Tejas Mk-I does not end up going the BAC TSR.2 and CF-105 Avro Arrow way.
* We need some strong statements in support of the HAL Tejas. And the strongest statement would be an order for 4 more squadrons of Tejas MK-I




NOT good for tejas????

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## Srinivas

1)The inlets of LCA are not big enough to give high thrusts
2) The frontal nose section is not big enough to accommodate powerful radar.

These two are essential for dogfights ! 



migflug said:


> Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 42m 42 minutes ago >>
> 
> * Nowhere in the world does so much of the envelope have to be proven for FOC. IAF's policy with regard to this needs to be reviewed.
> * To refine a combat jet. Everybody learns and the combat jet becomes better.
> * Everybody tries to get their homegrown fighter into some sort of squadron service and series production first. Bcoz that is the real way.
> * Our favorite R&D org is trying its best to complete hawa bahadur's changing requirements by end 2015.
> * Our bird is yet to fire new laaang range A2A because of Yehudi non-delivery. Stocks from Naavik Sena will be used now.
> * People at our favorite R&D organization are completely demoralized at the moment. They sounded quite dejected. Talked to them this morning.
> * Any move to sideline Tejas with an imported design would be nothing short of the Weimar betrayal.
> * Why does a radome need to be changed right at the end of a program? And how many jets have had to be IFR qualified before FOC ?
> * I just hope the Tejas Mk-I does not end up going the BAC TSR.2 and CF-105 Avro Arrow way.
> * We need some strong statements in support of the HAL Tejas. And the strongest statement would be an order for 4 more squadrons of Tejas MK-I
> 
> View attachment 215325
> NOT good for tejas????


----------



## Manindra

Srinivas said:


> 1)The inlets of LCA are not big enough to give high thrusts
> 2) The frontal nose section is not big enough to accommodate powerful radar.
> 
> These two are essential for dogfights !



Are you aeronautical Engineer ?
Do you see Nose cone of Gripen ?
LCA problem is not thrust but drag.

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## mad_max

Manindra said:


> Are you aeronautical Engineer ?
> Do you see Nose cone of Gripen ?
> LCA problem is not thrust but drag.


Apart from drag LCA has following major problems.
1) Poor Range.
2) Pathetic Radar.
3) Puny payload cap.

Address these before it can be of any use to any airforce in the world.


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## rockstarIN

mad_max said:


> Apart from drag LCA has following major problems.
> 1) Poor Range.
> 2) Pathetic Radar.
> 3) Puny payload cap.
> 
> Address these before it can be of any use to any airforce in the world.



Explain please?

Check the above posts for range of LCA
Radar - We, for the timing being using the same radar which IsAF wanted in their Sufas instead of Blk -52 V9 version. 
Payload - Its a light fighter, not a medium of heavy fighter.

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## mad_max

rockstarIN said:


> Explain please?
> 
> Check the above posts for range of LCA
> Radar - We, for the timing being using the same radar which IsAF wanted in their Sufas instead of Blk -52 V9 version.
> Payload - Its a light fighter, not a medium of heavy fighter.



Extracts from article above.

100-300 km CR (seriously what operations would you perform with it ? )
45 Km Range radar (what use this will be ?)
1000-3000 kg (payload+extra fuel) WOW .


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## rockstarIN

mad_max said:


> Extracts from article above.
> 
> 100-300 km CR (seriously what operations would you perform with it ? )
> 45 Km Range radar (what use this will be ?)
> 1000-3000 kg (payload+extra fuel) WOW .



CR mentioned only on internal fuel, x 2 if it use external tanks (same in all light fighters)
34km?, ELTA/2032 have 120+ range in A2A and 70+ in A2G mode.
It is a light fighter, for what is ti designed for!

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## Pichkari

Srinivas said:


> 1)The inlets of LCA are not big enough to give high thrusts
> 2) The frontal nose section is not big enough to accommodate powerful radar.
> 
> These two are essential for dogfights !



The inlets are fine.We have changed the engines and hence they need to be increades by 10 cm,not a problem.

Do you know how big the rafales nose cone section is?Space is not the problem here.


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## Srinivas

Pichkari said:


> The inlets are fine.We have changed the engines and hence they need to be increades by 10 cm,not a problem.
> 
> Do you know how big the rafales nose cone section is?Space is not the problem here.



Basically the airframe is an old one, which was designed requirements of the past. The current requirements have changed significantly.

LCA has the smallest inlet changing it to wider requires many changes in the flight control laws as well.

The bigger the nose cone the more the number of T/R modules that will fit in the radar. The more powerful the radar is.

However LCA has its advantages.


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## mad_max

rockstarIN said:


> CR mentioned only on internal fuel, x 2 if it use external tanks (same in all light fighters)
> 34km?, ELTA/2032 have 120+ range in A2A and 70+ in A2G mode.
> It is a light fighter, for what is ti designed for!


You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
(Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )

33 yrs and you have this ?
Time to rethink.


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## Alfa-Fighter

mad_max said:


> You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
> Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
> (Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )
> 
> 33 yrs and you have this ?
> Time to rethink.



You better check the F-16 range is just 500 km in H-L-H mission profile with 18,00KG weapons and it carry more fuel then then you JF-17 , Are your JF-17 range compare without any weapon load?

Is the range at Sea level of at 30,000 FT or at 15000 Ft? because ranges changes with Height... come with complete information .

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## Pichkari

mad_max said:


> You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
> Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
> (Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )
> 
> 33 yrs and you have this ?
> Time to rethink.




Yes we have this, we are proud of this and it is much better than what it is replacing ie mig21
The problem is not with the radome geometry or aerodynamics but the material.Instead of the composite one airforce wants quartz radome which effectively means more radar range.

The point here is that neither mig 21 nor mirage 2000 has a quartz radome.
IF only IAF owns up the aircraft instead of treating it as an outcast,it would have been inducted.
Even with composite radome it outperfoms mig21's ,the aircraft it is replacing.
If it continues to treat it like other foreign jets then god help the indian aviation industry.



Srinivas said:


> Basically the airframe is an old one, which was designed requirements of the past. The current requirements have changed significantly.
> 
> LCA has the smallest inlet changing it to wider requires many changes in the flight control laws as well.
> 
> The bigger the nose cone the more the number of T/R modules that will fit in the radar. The more powerful the radar is.
> 
> However LCA has its advantages.



The inlet was fine till ge 404 was used.Now that ge414 will be used on mk2 the inlets need to increased.This is not that big a problem.
The very reason we are doing this is because of the high drag the aircraft has due to its large delta shaped wing area.
Good instantaneous turn rate sustained turn rate is not up to the mark but still better than mig21.

The demand for new engine was IN requirement and IAF jumped on it.

The radome space is enough. The changes are being made to the material of the radome and not the shape.

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## Srinivas

Pichkari said:


> The inlet was fine till ge 404 was used.Now that ge414 will be used on mk2 the inlets need to increased.This is not that big a problem.
> The very reason we are doing this is because of the high drag the aircraft has due to its large delta shaped wing area.
> Good instantaneous turn rate sustained turn rate is not up to the mark but still better than mig21.
> 
> The demand for new engine was IN requirement and IAF jumped on it.
> 
> The radome space is enough. The changes are being made to the material of the radome and not the shape.




May be adding two canards will increase the manoeuvrability !

Tejas looks looks like a strike fighter, adding two canards will make it more manoeuvrable and makes it a good jet for dogfights.

Recently they have added two flaps at the front though.


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## sathya

Srinivas said:


> May be adding two canards will increase the manoeuvrability !
> 
> Tejas looks looks like a strike fighter, adding two canards will make it more manoeuvrable and makes it a good jet for dogfights.
> 
> Recently they have *added two flaps at the front though*.



u mean levcons in naval version?


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## Pichkari

Srinivas said:


> May be adding two canards will increase the manoeuvrability !




We have alreay tested tejas design with canards years a go.
Google is your friend.You can find pics of tejas designs with canards undergoing wind tunnel testing.
If it was not chosen then i doubt ada will go for canards now.

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## Srinivas

sathya said:


> u mean levcons in naval version?



Yes !

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## Niks

mad_max said:


> You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
> Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
> (Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )
> 
> 33 yrs and you have this ?
> Time to rethink.


80 Km for 2 m^2 target is pretty good as compared to others in its class.
CR is 500 km


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## rockstarIN

mad_max said:


> You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
> Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
> (Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )
> 
> 33 yrs and you have this ?
> Time to rethink.


You should update the cone issue is sorted out.and do not teach about mk33 performance. It is highly thrusty. Regarding range, it depends upon weapon package , range, and altitude. Where you find those fighters you mentioned have got more range? In this specific altit ude awith payload


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## proud_indian

Defence minister Manohar Parikar hinted here that LCA mk1 number can shoot upto 100 and speeding up the mk2.

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## Kompromat

So how many Tejas are now expected?


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## migflug

Indian Rethink Is Leading To a Smaller Rafale Deal

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... afale-deal

*Quote:*
Parrikar said that the Rafale acquisition should have been a “government-to-government” deal from the outset. He added that a new defense procurement policy would be announced soon, and would be less complicated than the current policy, with its “Make in India” provisions. Mehta said the new Rafale deal “has given the IAF much-needed breathing space while keeping other options open. It is likely to free up funds that can partly be used for scaling up production of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] and the faster induction of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft [FGFA] in collaboration with Russia.” AIN has learned that an additional 30 Sukhoi Su-30MKIs will be ordered in the meanwhile.


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## proud_indian

Horus said:


> So how many Tejas are now expected?


as you can see in the video above your post the number will eventually reach to 100 for mk1


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## Jayanta

Horus said:


> So how many Tejas are now expected?



The defence minister was clear that there will be a push to increase the numbers of LCA MK-1 to 100 if required.


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## migflug

*Devendra Fadnavis in talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up unit in state*
SOURCE: ECONOMIC TIMES







At a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi is busy drumming up support for his high-decibel Make In India campaign, Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis has quietly initiated talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up a production unit in his state.Just back from the Hanover Fair 2015, where he had gone to promote Maharashtra, Fadnavis spoke exclusively to ET on Thursday, saying that his government has begun a dialogue with Sweden’s Saab Group to team up with Pune-based Bharat Forge for setting up a defence production unit in Maharashtra soon.

Fadnavis said Saab expressed interest in setting up a manufacturing base in Maharashtra and even presented a business plan with transfer of technology and a proposal to collaborate with Indian companies if land and power are assured to them. Saab Group is a Swedish aerospace and defence company specialising in radar and avionics. Fadnavis held a series of meetings with Swedish defence, aerospace, radar and avionics experts, and showcased the obvious advantages of Maharashtra — Air Force maintenance command in Nagpur and Indian aeronautic manufacturing unit in Nashik. The Maharashtra CM said his aim was to market Maharashtra as the largest base for the German engineering industry.


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## mad_max

Niks said:


> 80 Km for 2 m^2 target is pretty good as compared to others in its class.
> CR is 500 km


read the article in current thread how pathetic range and cr in different modes are.


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## GURU DUTT

mad_max said:


> read the article in current thread how pathetic range and cr in different modes are.


well sir tejas is worlds most compact and light fighter in its class today but its no slouch either as it uses composites in its air frame on a very big scale thus reducing its wieght & RCS considrabelli






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










whats more MK2 is just round the corner owr biggest was the corrupt UPA 1&2 goverments which slept on this projectas maney from kickbacks were there first priorty not self reliance even LCA was speeded up in NDA rule and sow as the MKI concived and deal for vikrmaditya & eventhe AJT deal both of which were messed up by corrupt UPA to get there share in the deals

but now since a upright ,patriot & shrewd buisness person like modi ji isin hot seat + an IITan Defence Minister M Parikker who has already shown how to get things on a shoestring budget under very short notice period im sure things willwork owt pretty well and pretty soon at pace which none thought possible

and the biggest thing with LCA is it though has a smallrange but its a point defnce fighter which will always remain shadows of big boys of IAF ( M26 , M2K , MKI & Rafale) but can carry a very good load of wepons almost all of which are integrated and soon mass production will come into full steam




and range of EL/M-2032 is not 80 Km (killometere=1000m) but 80 NM (nautikal miles 1852m) so its 148.16 while it can track sea targets for 160NM 


so LCA though alittle late still is good enof for PAF little help from upgraded Jags M 29 & M2K while MKI-Rafale combo will gaurd northen frontire so we are not worried as both FGFA & hopefulli AMCA will arrive just in time

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## Manindra

mad_max said:


> Apart from drag LCA has following major problems.
> 1) Poor Range.
> 2) Pathetic Radar.
> 3) Puny payload cap.
> 
> Address these before it can be of any use to any airforce in the world.


1) I don't think a point defence fighter range should be 3000 KM 
2) Do you check how pathetic F-16 radar (Bar block 60/62) is ?
4) Again 3500 to 4000 & in MKII 5000 tonne is good enough for point defence fighter.

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## mad_max

Manindra said:


> 1) I don't think a point defence fighter range should be 3000 KM
> 2) Do you check how pathetic F-16 radar (Bar block 60/62) is ?
> 4) Again 3500 to 4000 & in MKII 5000 tonne is good enough for point defence fighter.


And i thought you intended this to be multirole fighter suitable to play role of both mig 21/27 or even jaguar.


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## Manindra

mad_max said:


> And i thought you intended this to be multirole fighter suitable to play role of both mig 21/27 or even jaguar.


It would give Jaguar or MIG 27 a run for money in even in current form (IOC -2 ) but its war time requirement but its need to supersede MIG-21 in role for Air Patrol but its current composite nose reduce radar signal which would be replace by quartz made cone.


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## mad_max

Manindra said:


> It would give Jaguar or MIG 27 a run for money in even in current form (IOC -2 ) but its war time requirement but its need to supersede MIG-21 in role for Air Patrol but its current composite nose reduce radar signal which would be replace by quartz made cone.


An eye opener , just compare range , payload capacity of mig 27/jaguar with puny LCA


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## Manindra

mad_max said:


> An eye opener , just compare range , payload capacity of mig 27/jaguar with puny LCA


Can you compare for me. Please ?


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## mad_max

Manindra said:


> Can you compare for me. Please ?


help yourself


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## Manindra

mad_max said:


> help yourself


You are itching to compare, So you should compare both by LCA in your given parameters.

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## gslv mk3

mad_max said:


> You should check your facts first before backing them radar range is 45 km , this is the reason for radome cone change to increase it to 80 km.
> Even i was saying CR with internal fuel and it is pretty low.
> (Compare it with Jf 17 / F-Ck-1 / KAI T-50 / F-2A )
> 
> 33 yrs and you have this ?
> Time to rethink.



80 kms for an RCS of 2m^2


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## Ind4Ever

rockstarIN said:


> Man thats alot of information..thanks!
> 
> View attachment 215297
> View attachment 215298
> View attachment 215299
> 
> 
> This will answer the query of 'range' of LCA





> *A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft*
> As of 2015, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is on the threshold of receiving the indigenously designed and built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), also known as the Tejas. It is expected to be a far-superior aircraft compared with the existing fleet of Mig-21s in the IAF fleet. However, what remains unknown in the public domain is its performance characteristics. The following effort will aim to answer some questions of the LCA’s performance as a function of altitude, payload and range. Doing so will provide a reference data set with which the LCA can be compared to the existing fleet of IAF aircraft. The analysis is based on computationally evaluated aerodynamics and propulsion data developed by the author. Whilst the LCA is now available in the air-force single-seat fighter (LCA), two-seat trainer (LCA-T) and navy (LCA-N) versions, the following analysis restricts itself to the single-seat air-force version only citing the lack of available information on the other two variants. However, performance for the other variants can be extrapolated from the single-seat air-force version, on which they are all based. The LCA design as used for this analysis is shown below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The realm of computational fluid dynamics*
> Evaluating aircraft aerodynamic performance using Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) methods is inherently time and resource intensive. As such, it remains the domain of large corporations and governmental agencies. However, such a detailed analysis is hardly required to determine aircraft performance. For an aircraft such as the LCA, suitable aerodynamic performance can be evaluated using surface-vorticity solvers such as FlightStream, developed by the Research in Flight Company (found here). The Author developed this software years ago as part of his academic research work and has applied this software to the LCA. In doing so, the primary aerodynamic data such as the force and moment coefficients can be evaluated as a function of angle-of-attack and altitude. The accuracy of FlightStream, for such an analysis, is acceptable only for the range of Mach numbers from low subsonic till the point of local supersonic flow over the wings and from small angles of attack till the point of flow separation over the wings. Working backwards from the available three-view data for the LCA available in the public domain, a surface mesh of the LCA was created using the open-source NASA software OpenVSP (found here). FlightStream has direct connectivity with OpenVSP and the surface mesh solution is evaluated for vorticity. The vorticity data is then used by the solver to generate aerodynamic loads data. Using this approach, the author was able to get reasonably close to the wind-tunnel data evaluated by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as shown below for the force coefficient matrix.
> 
> 
> 
> The force-coefficient matrix is plugged with a first-order propulsion module to simulate engine performance as a function of local atmospherics and altitude. The data generated by these routines are combined with the known mass properties of the aircraft to generate range and payload data which is then presented below for analysis. The said analysis is simplified to allow the reader to grasp the essentials of the performance results for the LCA.
> 
> Assumptions that went into the analysis include the empty weight of the LCA as being 6,500 Kg. The engine used was General Electric F404-GE-IN20 with a rated output of ~54 kN and a rated TSFC of ~0.77 lbm/lbf-Hr. The internal fuel capacity of the LCA is assumed to be 3,034 Liters and the aircraft is assumed to be capable of carrying a centerline external drop tank of 725 Liters as well as one 1,200 Liter drop tanks on pylon stations 1 and 2, respectively. The cruise speed of the LCA is evaluated for maximum range for each condition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Performance comparisons*
> The performance of LCA are summarized in the form of payload and range plots. The payload is evaluated from 0 to 10,000 kg and is assumed to include the pilot weight and all auxiliary equipment excluding fuel. The vertical axis of the plots is range, measured in kilometers. The combat-radius of the aircraft is considered to be ~40% of the range. For example, a range of 1,000 km corresponds to a combat radius of ~400 km. Plots are provided for the LCA in three conditions: clean (internal fuel only), combat (internal + centerline drop tank) and ferry (internal + centerline drop tank + 2 x wing drop tanks). Additionally, three altitude conditions are provided: sea-level, 20,000 ft above-sea-level (ASL) and 30,000 ft ASL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very clear that the design of the LCA allows for a dynamic performance matrix. In the ferry condition, flying at 20,000 feet ASL, the LCA can self-deploy to locations over 1,600 km away when carrying no payload. Carrying a light 1,000 kg payload, the LCA can ferry itself at high altitude to locations over 1,400 km away. Reviewing the altitude conditions suggest that there is an optimum high-altitude endurance regime for the LCA beyond which the benefits of altitude begin to wear off (as shown in the results for the 30,000 ft ASL plot above).
> 
> In the combat role, the LCA can execute either a high-altitude profile or a low-altitude one. The high-altitude profile corresponds with typical combat-air-patrols and long-range engagement of enemy fighters. In this role, carrying only internal fuel, the LCA has a combat radius of ~350 km when patrolling between 15,000 ft and 20,000 ft ASL and carrying 2,000 kg of air-to-air payload. At low-altitude, the LCA can execute close-air-support strikes or evade enemy air patrols at high altitude when executing strikes against enemy targets farther inside enemy territory. In this profile, the LCA has a combat radius of ~200 km when carrying 2,000 kg of air-to-ground munitions. A mix of high and low profiles will allow somewhat greater radius of action for the LCA and the numbers can be extrapolated from the plots above.
> 
> Flight time versus available fuel can be plotted using the above data to extrapolate time on station for each type of mission profile. The flight-time/available fuel plot is provided below for the LCA cruising at 20,000 ft ASL. The clean, combat and ferry conditions are illustrated. It is clear that the LCA will not be a long endurance fighter under any conditions. The maximum flight time for the LCA on its own fuel capacity in the ferry condition is around ~110 minutes from take-off to empty fuel tanks. The performance for combat conditions is much lower at ~60 minutes when carrying a 1,000 kg payload beyond the fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Conclusions*
> The LCA is, by definition, a light fighter. Its flight performance metrics confirm this design feature. It is not meant to be a long-range bruiser like the Su-30MKI. Instead, it will replace existing short-range Mig-21 type aircraft in the IAF. In that role it is very aptly suited. This analysis was conducted using the F404-GE-IN20 engine. It is possible that more fuel efficient engines may be used in the future. In that case, the performance of the aircraft can be further enhanced, but only within limits. Further, weight reduction will play a key factor in the final iteration of the LCA for the IAF. The analysis above was conducted assuming an empty weight of 6,500 kg. However, there are varying numbers for the empty weight of the aircraft in the public domain. It is no secret that the increasing use of composites in the LCA is designed to bring the overall weight of the aircraft down. Even if the empty weight of the LCA is brought down by 5-10%, the improvements in the flight performance will be noticeable. Whether that is achieved, remains to be seen.
> 
> Dr. Vivek Ahuja
> 
> *References*
> 1.Jebakumar, S. K., “_Aircraft Performance Improvements: A Practical Approach_”, Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), March 2009, Bengaluru, India
> Posted 6 days ago by Vivek Ahuja


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## Ind4Ever

mad_max said:


> help yourself


You do that . Than derailing this nice thread . JF17 is the best of the best . Or J20 all u and u r friends have . Taaa


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## ni8mare



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## sathya

ni8mare said:


> View attachment 216035



Wow I thought December this year ... When did they finish so fast. 
What happened to SP2 ?


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## GURU DUTT

sathya said:


> Wow I thought December this year ... When did they finish so fast.
> What happened to SP2 ?


priorties have changed so have the patience of MOD and PMO as IAF was dragging this project for way too long they have been given a firm shut up call and from now on they have to make the most owt of what is bieng offred to them MK1 will be a real giant killer in just six months and Mk2 will come well before "foriegn maal lovers lobby" ever thought was possible perform or perish is the new mantra

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## rockstarIN

ni8mare said:


> View attachment 216035


Hello, from where you got this information?

2908th flight on 24 Feb

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-254

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 100

LSP2: 299

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 139

NP1: 38

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 10

NP2: 05









·2914h flight on 14 Mar





TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-255

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 100

LSP2: 301

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 139

NP1: 38

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 13

NP2: 05

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## uparyupari

rockstarIN said:


> Hello, from where you got this information?
> 
> 2908th flight on 24 Feb
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-254
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 299
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 10
> 
> NP2: 05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2914h flight on 14 Mar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 301
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 13
> 
> NP2: 05



Oh just the Ministry of Defence, GoI Annual report. 

http://mod.gov.in/writereaddata/AR1415.pdf

Nowhere as authentic as you

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## rockstarIN

uparyupari said:


> Oh just the Ministry of Defence, GoI Annual report.
> 
> http://mod.gov.in/writereaddata/AR1415.pdf
> 
> Nowhere as authentic as you


 Thats old data then...


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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> Hello, from where you got this information?
> 
> 2908th flight on 24 Feb
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-254
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 299
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 10
> 
> NP2: 05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2914h flight on 14 Mar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 301
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 13
> 
> NP2: 05



What your source rockstar ?
6 flights in 20 days despite so many examples.. Definitely very slow..


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## Niks

sathya said:


> What your source rockstar ?
> 6 flights in 20 days despite so many examples.. Definitely very slow..


It is there on Tejas.gov.in site

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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> What your source rockstar ?
> 6 flights in 20 days despite so many examples.. Definitely very slow..



ADA site

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## Manindra

rockstarIN said:


> Hello, from where you got this information?
> 
> 2908th flight on 24 Feb
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-254
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 299
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 10
> 
> NP2: 05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2914h flight on 14 Mar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 301
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 13
> 
> NP2: 05


2775 flights till 30 november 2014, you give data of feb & march 2015


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## rockstarIN

Manindra said:


> 2775 flights till 30 november 2014, you give data of feb & march 2015


Yes, 2914 flights as per their latest info.

Also not, the SP-1 numbers are not there as now it is with IAF.


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## Manindra

rockstarIN said:


> Yes, 2914 flights as per their latest info.
> 
> Also not, the SP-1 numbers are not there as now it is with IAF.


That report quoted data of flight no. till 30 nov. 2014
So both are true.


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## rockstarIN

Manindra said:


> That report quoted data of flight no. till 30 nov. 2014
> So both are true.


Yes but that was earlier report showing June 2015 will be FOC.


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## Manindra

rockstarIN said:


> Yes but that was earlier report showing June 2015 will be FOC.


May be they revise deadline as this report suggest
For LCA Tejas, it’s now about months, not decades - The Times of India


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## The_Sidewinder

Manindra said:


> May be they revise deadline as this report suggest
> For LCA Tejas, it’s now about months, not decades - The Times of India




This article has been posted a couple of times buddy in this thread alone. 
No offence Intended.


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## Manindra

The_Sidewinder said:


> This article has been posted a couple of times buddy in this thread alone.
> No offence Intended.


I am just supporting June 2015 FOC theory.

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## rockstarIN

Manindra said:


> I am just supporting June 2015 FOC theory.



Even I love to see that in June, but now in April it is hard to achieve. Till now no BVR firing!


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## JaiShriAllahNath

rockstarIN said:


> Even I love to see that in June, but now in April it is hard to achieve. Till now no BVR firing!



That's because IAF has not supplied any missile to DRDO. Israel refused to supply Derby for LCA in near future.

With no missile in hand, ADA should test with lu*d on air? 

Blame the corrupt IAF, who is sleeping since 60 years. Why no missile was arranged for test? how many years IAF need to supply few missiles to DRDO for test on LCA?

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## rockstarIN

JaiShriAllahNath said:


> *That's because IAF has not supplied any missile to DRDO. Israel refused to supply Derby for LCA in near future.*
> 
> With no missile in hand, ADA should test with lu*d on air?
> 
> Blame the corrupt IAF, who is sleeping since 60 years. Why no missile was arranged for test? how many years IAF need to supply few missiles to DRDO for test on LCA?




Your source please?


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## Niks

rockstarIN said:


> Your source please?


Saurav Jha...he said that israelis have delayed the supply
But he also wrote that navy has given its stock of israeli missiles for the test

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## rockstarIN

Niks said:


> Saurav Jha...he said that israelis have delayed the supply
> But he also wrote that navy has given its stock of israeli missiles for the test



I read his tweet too. But where did he say they refused to supply ? only delays


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## Bhoot Pishach

rockstarIN said:


> Your source please?




For your Kind Information Indian Navy is providing the missiles from its STOCKS. This itself tells the WHOLE STORY going in the Drama.

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## Niks

rockstarIN said:


> I read his tweet too. But where did he say they refused to supply ? only delays


Troll attempt by the above guy

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## Bhoot Pishach

rockstarIN said:


> I read his tweet too. But where did he say they refused to supply ? *only delays*



If DRDO/ADA/HAL misses deadline it's BIG ISSUE. But When your BELOVED "PHOOORAIN" COMPANY "COBAM" & "ISRAELI" misses dead it is "ONLY DELAYS".

What your "PROFESSIONAL PHOOORAIN COMPANIES" are of worth HAVING "DECADES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE" IN THE PRECISE WORK WHAT THEY ARE DOING????

AND STILL "TAREEKH PE TAREEKH" BY THE PHOOOORAIN COMPANIES 

BUT NOBODY WILL BLAME THEM, *"EVEN WHEN FOC IS PENDING DUE TO THESE PHORAIN COMPANIES"*


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## rockstarIN

Bhoot Pishach said:


> If DRDO/ADA/HAL misses deadline it's BIG ISSUE. But When your BELOVED "PHOOORAIN" COMPANY "COBAM" & "ISRAELI" misses dead it is "ONLY DELAYS".
> 
> What your "PROFESSIONAL PHOOORAIN COMPANIES" are of worth HAVING "DECADES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE" IN THE PRECISE WORK WHAT THEY ARE DOING????
> 
> AND STILL "TAREEKH PE TAREEKH" BY THE PHOOOORAIN COMPANIES
> 
> BUT NOBODY WILL BLAME THEM, *"EVEN WHEN FOC IS PENDING DUE TO THESE PHORAIN COMPANIES"*




What is PHOOOORAIN?


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## Bhoot Pishach

Niks said:


> Troll attempt by the above guy



Dear Mr. @Niks this is not trolling this is called "SHOWING THE MIRROR" TO THE "FAN=BOYS"

Reply to all the raised points with Logic and PROVE me WRONG.

I am a illiterate down to earth Indian hence my pronunciation is POOOAR!!!

Hence I pronounce "FOREIGN" AS "PHOOORAIN".


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## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> If DRDO/ADA/HAL misses deadline it's BIG ISSUE. But When your BELOVED "PHOOORAIN" COMPANY "COBAM" & "ISRAELI" misses dead it is "ONLY DELAYS".
> 
> What your "PROFESSIONAL PHOOORAIN COMPANIES" are of worth HAVING "DECADES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE" IN THE PRECISE WORK WHAT THEY ARE DOING????
> 
> AND STILL "TAREEKH PE TAREEKH" BY THE PHOOOORAIN COMPANIES
> 
> BUT NOBODY WILL BLAME THEM, *"EVEN WHEN FOC IS PENDING DUE TO THESE PHORAIN COMPANIES"*


if this time the authorities of DRDO , HAL , ADA fail to get this project done on time they will be shifted to places where the most brave are relucatnt to go ....they have onli one option perform or perish and they know the current goverment is serous and they are afraid but the good news is when your "realli"afraid you can do wonderfull jobs which u always thought were impossible

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## rockstarIN

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Dear Mr. @Niks this is not trolling this is called "SHOWING THE MIRROR" TO THE "FAN=BOYS"
> 
> Reply to all the raised points with Logic and PROVE me WRONG.
> 
> I am a illiterate down to earth Indian hence my pronunciation is POOOAR!!!
> 
> Hence I pronounce "FOREIGN" AS "PHOOORAIN".



If there is any delay in getting the stuff, they should have put up at the appropriate place, at PMO or DM.

I'm sure there is no 'saints' sitting at DM office now.!


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## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> if this time the authorities of DRDO , HAL , ADA fail to get this project done on time they will be shifted to places where the most brave are relucatnt to go ....they have onli one option perform or perish and they know the current goverment is serous and they are afraid but the good news is when your "realli"afraid you can do wonderfull jobs which u always thought were impossible



Hi!! Guru Bhai.

This time its not about the DRDO/HAL/ADA this time this is sh!t due to "COBAM" AND "ISRAELI" hence delayed from September'14 till date i.e. 19/Apr/2015.

It will take atleast 6months to complete all the testing with "Radome", "Missiles" "IFR".

Now the question is who is responsible???????


----------



## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Hi!! Gutu Bhai.
> 
> This time its not about the DRDO/HAL/ADA this time this is sh!t due to "COBAM" AND "ISRAELI" hence delayed from September'14 till date i.e. 19/Apr/2015.
> 
> It will take atleast 6months to complete all the testing with "Radome", "Missiles" "IFR".
> 
> Now the question is who is responsible???????


its the responsibillity colectivelli of IAF,ADA HAL who kept on maikng excuses than doing the hard work now they have no option cause the new DM or PMO is in no mood to give them another life line they know if they dont to this job ontime thin time they are going to pay very very dearli


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

rockstarIN said:


> If there is any delay in getting the stuff, they should have put up at the appropriate place, at PMO or DM.
> 
> I'm sure there is no 'saints' sitting at DM office now.!




Every Body KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON!!!

It took Whole year to Mr. Modi to figure the real solution what to be done about the Sh!t in the FORCES.

And this is what Mr.Parrikar is Doing CLEARING THE SH!T IN THE "FORCES".

WE CAN JUST DECODE THEIR "MODUS OPRANDIE" IN THEIR "HANDLING OF RAFALE".

I.E. THEY ARE SHOWING "IAF" THEIR "RIGHTFUL PLACE".


----------



## Manindra

rockstarIN said:


> Even I love to see that in June, but now in April it is hard to achieve. Till now no BVR firing!


We can wait as neither any option left


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> its the responsibillity colectivelli of IAF,ADA HAL who kept on maikng excuses than doing the hard work now they have no option cause the new DM or PMO is in no mood to give them another life line they know if they dont to this job ontime thin time they are going to pay very very dearli



Guru Bhai!!

Just tell me who is making excuses???

Do you know "IAF" has rejected "RADOME" FROM "COBAM" NOT *ONCE BUT TWICE*.

Do you know the DRDO/ADA/HAL are hell bent to squeeze all the Juice of "New Radar" to get the Performance of 80Km for RCS 2 sq.mtr. while it is 50Km+ in current condition.

This is better then Mirage-2000.

Still the FOC DEMANDS 80KM "WHICH CANNOT BE DONE IN "BLOCK UPDATION".

Who shall be "HANGED FOR THIS DELAY"??????



rockstarIN said:


> If there is any delay in getting the stuff, they should have put up at the appropriate place, at PMO or DM.
> 
> I'm sure there is no 'saints' sitting at DM office now.!



Read my Post No#592.

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## sathya

Why can't they achieve Foc with composite radome ?
Anyways they can achieve BVR missile test missiles terminal guidance ?..


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## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Guru Bhai!!
> 
> Just tell me who is making excuses???
> 
> Do you know "IAF" has rejected "RADOME" FROM "COBAM" NOT *ONCE BUT TWICE*.
> 
> Do you know the DRDO/ADA/HAL are hell bent to squeeze all the Juice of "New Radar" to get the Performance of 80Km for RCS 2 sq.mtr. while it is 50Km+ in current condition.
> 
> This is better then Mirage-2000.
> 
> Still the FOC DEMANDS 80KM "WHICH CANNOT BE DONE IN "BLOCK UPDATION".
> 
> Who shall be "HANGED FOR THIS DELAY"??????
> 
> 
> 
> Read my Post No#592.


cobam is not the onli option as for squeezing the best owt of the current radar well what were they doing all this while its no escuse they have to do it no ifs and buts LRDE has to do something while the new DM wants an "uttam"AESA on Mk1 itself as for what IAF wants cannot always be done they had relaxed there norms to get "foriegn maal" whats the big deal now they have to accept MK1 as it is and then make improvements as they were the ones who rejected the proposal of dassualt when they were giving entire toling with production line and TOT of M2K

so now LCA MK1 is there onli option as PMO & MOD are giving them 3 squads of rafale

all those who were part of R&D & managing LCA in past and present will be held accountable for if anything goes wrong now and they all know it 

asi said before PMO & MOD ne ungli terri ker di hai ab dekhen kya nikal ke aata hai


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## The_Sidewinder

@Bhoot Pishach

bhai to baate bhi bhut pishach ki tarrah he karta hei.   khi khi khi 
Achcha hua ek naya entertaining banda aa gaya he PDF me.


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> cobam is not the onli option as for squeezing the best owt of the current radar well what were they doing all this while its no escuse they have to do it no ifs and buts LRDE has to do something while the new* DM wants an "uttam"AESA on Mk1 itself *as for what IAF wants cannot always be done they had relaxed there norms to get "foriegn maal" whats the big deal now they have to accept MK1 as it is and then make improvements as they were the ones who rejected the proposal of dassualt when they were giving entire toling with production line and TOT of M2K
> 
> so now LCA MK1 is there onli option as PMO & MOD are giving them 3 squads of rafale
> 
> all those who were part of R&D & managing LCA in past and present will be held accountable for if anything goes wrong now and they all know it
> 
> asi said before PMO & MOD ne ungli terri ker di hai ab dekhen kya nikal ke aata hai



Current MMR Radar is having Software of ELTA which otherwise taken long to develop the Software for it.

As per LRDA current MMR should have Range of 80Km+, which they found due to current Composite Radar is absorbing hence the result is depleted range hence the need of New Quartz Radome. Which delivered by Cobam is not upto performance, and is having some fault. So the Cobam is redesigning the Quartz Radome.

Hence it is delayed.

As it is taking Long Time to Develop the Software of UTTAM Radar, Air to Air mode is completed and work on Air to Ground mode is in Progress. Writing Software and Testing and Fine Tuning it takes lot of time. It will not come before 2018.

And yes Mr.MP is pressing every RIGHT BUTTONS to get lethargy out of Every One around be it DRDO/HAL/ADA/IAF.

MR. MANOHAR PARRIKAR HAS "SMELLED DESI FIGHTER" AROUND THE CORNER AND HE IS HELL BENT TO MAKE IT A SUCCESS.

BJP ARE "HARD CORE" NATIONALISTS THEY JUST WILL NOT LET GO DOWN "TEJAS PROGRAM" IN THE DRAIN.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Current MMR Radar is having Software of ELTA which otherwise taken long to develop the Software for it.
> 
> As per LRDA current MMR should have Range of 80Km+, which they found due to current Composite Radar is absorbing hence the need of New Quartz Radome. Which delivered by Cobam is not upto performance, and is having some fault.
> 
> Hence it is delayed.
> 
> As it is taking Long Time to Develop the Software of UTTAM Radar, Air to Air mode is completed and work on Air to Ground mode is in Progress. Writing Software and Testing and Fine Tuning it takes lot of time. It will not come before 2018.
> 
> And yes Mr.MP is pressing every RIGHT BUTTONS to get lethargy out of Every One around be it DRDO/HAL/ADA/IAF.
> 
> MR. MANOHAR PARRIKAR HAS "SMELLED DESI FIGHTER" AROUND THE CORNER AND HE IS HELL BENT TO MAKE IT A SUCCESS.
> 
> BJP ARE "HARD CORE" NATIONALISTS THEY JUST WILL NOT LET GO DOWN "TEJAS PROGRAM" IN THE DRAIN.


no matter how much advance you become there is always room for improvement and in best planned and executed something can always go wrong but that aside we have to do owr work the best way we could as we have no other choice rather we cant afford to have any other choice 

both PMO & MOD know it so does IAF but they are yet to get of there high horse 

its all about manging skills now we have a good platform with immense potential

we have to move onto AMCA & AURA that is owr future if a small country like Israel with limited recources why cant we with such a enormous pool of intellegent and quallified sientists and money can do it ?

if you ask me honestli i think the proper justice to LCA has not been done rather its been pushed arround delibaretlli but its never too late lets hope ADA ,LRDE , HAL can make it work this time


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> no matter how much advance you become there is always room for improvement and in best planned and executed something can always go wrong but that aside we have to do owr work the best way we could as we have no other choice rather we cant afford to have any other choice
> 
> both PMO & MOD know it so does IAF but they are yet to get of there high horse
> 
> its all about manging skills now we have a good platform with immense potential
> 
> we have to move onto AMCA & AURA that is owr future if a small country like Israel with limited recources why cant we with such a enormous pool of intellegent and quallified sientists and money can do it ?
> 
> if you ask me honestli i think the proper justice to LCA has not been done rather its been pushed arround delibaretlli but its never too late lets hope ADA ,LRDE , HAL can make it work this time



Have some faith!!!

Tejas Mk-I will join the force from day one with :

Radar - 80Km+.
BVR - Derby, Latter - Astra.
Ground Attack - PGMs, LGB.
AoA - 26* +
G - 8+.
Full FBW with Relaxed Stability.
All Glass Cockpit, Head Mounted Display.

TRUE MULTIROLL FROM DAY ONE. What more you expect from a "Light Attack Aircraft" which is the "SMALLEST IN THE CATEGORY" ????

Designing and Developing a Fighter Plane is not like Eating Cookies. It takes a lot of effort and development of technologies.

India never had any of the technology for Fighter Aircraft and developing all the Critical Technology well within 20 years (from 1995 to 2015), tells you the effort put in by the Team and Scientists working on the Project.

That is also without the support of IAF which changed the ASR in between the phase of development which resulted in repeated delay.

And now IAF want READY TO INDUCT and should be able to DO ALL THE TASK "FROM DAY ONE".

Would you please appreciate what was the status of SU-30 AT THE TIME OF INDUCTION IN IAF.

AND WHAT MIRAGE-2000 WAS CAPABLE TO DO AT THE TIME OF INDUCTION.

And this story goes for all the Phoooorain Fighter Aircrafts.

WHAT IS THE STATUS OF "FOC" OF F-35???? HECK IS IT HAVE EVEN "IOC" ?????

DO TYPHOON ABLE TO DO THE GROUND ATTACK TILL DATE?????

DO RAFALE HAVE "AESA" TILL DATE OR "IIRST"??????

THEN WHY THIS "APARTHEID" WITH "TEJAS" ITS OWN "MOTHER AIR FORCE" IS DISOWNING IT!!!

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## Bhoot Pishach

The_Sidewinder said:


> @Bhoot Pishach
> 
> bhai to baate bhi bhut pishach ki tarrah he karta hei.   khi khi khi
> Achcha hua ek naya entertaining banda aa gaya he PDF me.



Apni Chaddi Sambhalna! Kahin Dar ke Kaaran, Geeli aur Peeli na Ho Jay!!!


----------



## The_Sidewinder

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Apni Chaddi Sambhalna! Kahin Dar ke Kaaran, Geeli aur Peeli na Ho Jay!!!



DARNA AUR TUJHSE  

TU TO KAPIL SHARMA KI BIWI LAGTI HEI


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

The_Sidewinder said:


> DARNA AUR TUJHSE
> 
> TU TO KAPIL SHARMA KI BIWI LAGTI HEI



Doosrno ki bivi pe nazar rakhta hai! Tere ko sabhi door doosro ke bivian he nazar aati hai!!

Apniwaali ka dhyan rakh, tu PDF me pilahta hai!!

Kahin doosra tere peeche na __________ pael jaay!!

Baabu tu mahan hai!! Jo tere man mai aay vo bakwas kar!!

Tere jaise Kshudra Buddhi ko mai ab intertain nahi karunga!!

you are ignored from now onwards.


----------



## The_Sidewinder

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Doosrno ki bivi pe nazar rakhta hai!
> 
> Apniwaali ka dhyan rakh, tu PDF me pilahta hai!!
> 
> Kahin doosra tere peeche na __________ pael jaay!!
> 
> Baabu tu mahan hai!! Jo tere man mai aay vo bakwas kar!!
> 
> Tere jaise Kshudra Buddhi ko mai ab intertain nahi karunga!!
> 
> you are ignored from now onwards.



Khisiyani billi Khambha noche. khi  khi  khi


----------



## migflug

*Fadnavis to meet Manohar Parrikar to seek aircraft hub in Maharastra*
SOURCE : EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE







Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis is going to hold a meeting with Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to promote the ambitious project of setting up a light combat aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra.

The possibility of setting up the unit in Nagpur is not being ruled out. The orange city is also the home town of Fadnavis. The meeting is likely to take place at month end.

Fadnavis’ proposed project comes in the wake of the decision taken by Parrikar to promote indigenously made aircraft in India. The defence minister has indicated that India would require at least 100 new light combat aircraft within the next five years.

The mandate from PM Narendra Modi to Parrikar is to promote manufacturing hub in defence sector in India. Speaking to Indian Express Fadnavis said, “Maharashtra which is the leading industrial state has proposed setting up of new defence manufacturing unit.”

He said, “It is my endeavour to have an aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra. Since, the subject comes under the ministry of defence, I am going to hold a meeting with Manohar Parrikar to take the matter forward.”

Emphasising he said, “I am looking forward to push Maharashtra’s case for the manufacturing unit.”

The chief minister indicated that Nagpur’s Mihan which already has 100 billion dollar Boeing aircraft maintenance and repair overhaul (MOR) depot is being considered positively.

From all aspects Nagpur is suitable for the aircraft unit. However, final decisions will be arrived after consultations with centre. Fadnavis said, “At this moment my priority is to promote new industrial ventures in Maharashtra which is the destination for global players.

Whether it is Nagpur or Aurangabad or other towns and cities we are determined to transform them into smart cities for overall socio-economic growth of state.” After all, Maharashtra contributes upto 15 percent of the National GDP, he added.

Fadnavis revealed, “During my tour abroad last week I visited the aerospace and defence company SAAB at Linkoping Sweden. It was a great experience as we exchanged knowledge about the advanced technology in making of the combat aircraft.”

The chief minister said, “The centre-state will pursue the matter and we expect the delegations to arrive in state soon.” Maharashtra government will also put in place its detail defence policy after consultations with ministry of defense and PMO.

The decision to chose Nagpur comes in wake of the availability of plenty of land and available infrastructure. The city which is geographically is centrally located in India, has the potential to emerge as the aircraft manufacturing hub in coming years, it was felt.

During his visit abroad last week chief minister hopped Germany, Sweden, Stockholm to promote Make in India with special emphasise on Maharashtra. Fadnavis accompanied Modi to the trade fair at Hannover Messe.

Fadnavis said, “The purpose of the visit was to impress upon the global players the ease of doing business in India and specially in Maharashtra.

And I must concede that global players showed keen interest in Maharashtra. They reckon India is the new destination. And several delegations are expected to visit Maharashtra in next few months.”



Looks like we r going to have a gripen production line

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## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Have some faith!!!
> 
> Tejas Mk-I will join the force from day one with :
> 
> Radar - 80Km+.
> BVR - Derby, Latter - Astra.
> Ground Attack - PGMs, LGB.
> AoA - 26* +
> G - 8+.
> Full FBW with Relaxed Stability.
> All Glass Cockpit, Head Mounted Display.
> 
> TRUE MULTIROLL FROM DAY ONE. What more you expect from a "Light Attack Aircraft" which is the "SMALLEST IN THE CATEGORY" ????
> 
> Designing and Developing a Fighter Plane is not like Eating Cookies. It takes a lot of effort and development of technologies.
> 
> India never had any of the technology for Fighter Aircraft and developing all the Critical Technology well within 20 years (from 1995 to 2015), tells you the effort put in by the Team and Scientists working on the Project.
> 
> That is also without the support of IAF which changed the ASR in between the phase of development which resulted in repeated delay.
> 
> And now IAF want READY TO INDUCT and should be able to DO ALL THE TASK "FROM DAY ONE".
> 
> Would you please appreciate what was the status of SU-30 AT THE TIME OF INDUCTION IN IAF.
> 
> AND WHAT MIRAGE-2000 WAS CAPABLE TO DO AT THE TIME OF INDUCTION.
> 
> And this story goes for all the Phoooorain Fighter Aircrafts.
> 
> WHAT IS THE STATUS OF "FOC" OF F-35???? HECK IS IT HAVE EVEN "IOC" ?????
> 
> DO TYPHOON ABLE TO DO THE GROUND ATTACK TILL DATE?????
> 
> DO RAFALE HAVE "AESA" TILL DATE OR "IIRST"??????
> 
> THEN WHY THIS "APARTHEID" WITH "TEJAS" ITS OWN "MOTHER AIR FORCE" IS DISOWNING IT!!!


uare right both su 30 which later became MKI & M2Ks (heck itwas send to sri lanka against tamil rbels with just a cannon) were fightready when indiaaquired them 

but the MODbaboons and top dicission makers of IAFwant there "cut" in every deal and LCA dosent gives that 

these MOFOs are happy to kill rokkie pilots in already obsolete Mig21 but dont want to induct tejas as its (500 kg's havier than planned)

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## mad_max

migflug said:


> *Fadnavis to meet Manohar Parrikar to seek aircraft hub in Maharastra*
> SOURCE : EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis is going to hold a meeting with Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to promote the ambitious project of setting up a light combat aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra.
> 
> The possibility of setting up the unit in Nagpur is not being ruled out. The orange city is also the home town of Fadnavis. The meeting is likely to take place at month end.
> 
> Fadnavis’ proposed project comes in the wake of the decision taken by Parrikar to promote indigenously made aircraft in India. The defence minister has indicated that India would require at least 100 new light combat aircraft within the next five years.
> 
> The mandate from PM Narendra Modi to Parrikar is to promote manufacturing hub in defence sector in India. Speaking to Indian Express Fadnavis said, “Maharashtra which is the leading industrial state has proposed setting up of new defence manufacturing unit.”
> 
> He said, “It is my endeavour to have an aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra. Since, the subject comes under the ministry of defence, I am going to hold a meeting with Manohar Parrikar to take the matter forward.”
> 
> Emphasising he said, “I am looking forward to push Maharashtra’s case for the manufacturing unit.”
> 
> The chief minister indicated that Nagpur’s Mihan which already has 100 billion dollar Boeing aircraft maintenance and repair overhaul (MOR) depot is being considered positively.
> 
> From all aspects Nagpur is suitable for the aircraft unit. However, final decisions will be arrived after consultations with centre. Fadnavis said, “At this moment my priority is to promote new industrial ventures in Maharashtra which is the destination for global players.
> 
> Whether it is Nagpur or Aurangabad or other towns and cities we are determined to transform them into smart cities for overall socio-economic growth of state.” After all, Maharashtra contributes upto 15 percent of the National GDP, he added.
> 
> Fadnavis revealed, “During my tour abroad last week I visited the aerospace and defence company SAAB at Linkoping Sweden. It was a great experience as we exchanged knowledge about the advanced technology in making of the combat aircraft.”
> 
> The chief minister said, “The centre-state will pursue the matter and we expect the delegations to arrive in state soon.” Maharashtra government will also put in place its detail defence policy after consultations with ministry of defense and PMO.
> 
> The decision to chose Nagpur comes in wake of the availability of plenty of land and available infrastructure. The city which is geographically is centrally located in India, has the potential to emerge as the aircraft manufacturing hub in coming years, it was felt.
> 
> During his visit abroad last week chief minister hopped Germany, Sweden, Stockholm to promote Make in India with special emphasise on Maharashtra. Fadnavis accompanied Modi to the trade fair at Hannover Messe.
> 
> Fadnavis said, “The purpose of the visit was to impress upon the global players the ease of doing business in India and specially in Maharashtra.
> 
> And I must concede that global players showed keen interest in Maharashtra. They reckon India is the new destination. And several delegations are expected to visit Maharashtra in next few months.”
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we r going to have a gripen production line


Good for you as LCA is going nowhere.


----------



## MilSpec

Will be a stupid move to chose any of the suggested locoations, If additional capabilities in Maharashtra are to be set up, it makes sense to do it in Nashik, HAL nashik has extensive network of suppliers and subcontractors in MIDC satpur and MIDC Ambad, and up coming Industrial complex in Dindori. 



migflug said:


> *Fadnavis to meet Manohar Parrikar to seek aircraft hub in Maharastra*
> SOURCE : EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis is going to hold a meeting with Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to promote the ambitious project of setting up a light combat aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra.
> 
> The possibility of setting up the unit in Nagpur is not being ruled out. The orange city is also the home town of Fadnavis. The meeting is likely to take place at month end.
> 
> Fadnavis’ proposed project comes in the wake of the decision taken by Parrikar to promote indigenously made aircraft in India. The defence minister has indicated that India would require at least 100 new light combat aircraft within the next five years.
> 
> The mandate from PM Narendra Modi to Parrikar is to promote manufacturing hub in defence sector in India. Speaking to Indian Express Fadnavis said, “Maharashtra which is the leading industrial state has proposed setting up of new defence manufacturing unit.”
> 
> He said, “It is my endeavour to have an aircraft manufacturing unit in Maharashtra. Since, the subject comes under the ministry of defence, I am going to hold a meeting with Manohar Parrikar to take the matter forward.”
> 
> Emphasising he said, “I am looking forward to push Maharashtra’s case for the manufacturing unit.”
> 
> The chief minister indicated that Nagpur’s Mihan which already has 100 billion dollar Boeing aircraft maintenance and repair overhaul (MOR) depot is being considered positively.
> 
> From all aspects Nagpur is suitable for the aircraft unit. However, final decisions will be arrived after consultations with centre. Fadnavis said, “At this moment my priority is to promote new industrial ventures in Maharashtra which is the destination for global players.
> 
> Whether it is Nagpur or Aurangabad or other towns and cities we are determined to transform them into smart cities for overall socio-economic growth of state.” After all, Maharashtra contributes upto 15 percent of the National GDP, he added.
> 
> Fadnavis revealed, “During my tour abroad last week I visited the aerospace and defence company SAAB at Linkoping Sweden. It was a great experience as we exchanged knowledge about the advanced technology in making of the combat aircraft.”
> 
> The chief minister said, “The centre-state will pursue the matter and we expect the delegations to arrive in state soon.” Maharashtra government will also put in place its detail defence policy after consultations with ministry of defense and PMO.
> 
> The decision to chose Nagpur comes in wake of the availability of plenty of land and available infrastructure. The city which is geographically is centrally located in India, has the potential to emerge as the aircraft manufacturing hub in coming years, it was felt.
> 
> During his visit abroad last week chief minister hopped Germany, Sweden, Stockholm to promote Make in India with special emphasise on Maharashtra. Fadnavis accompanied Modi to the trade fair at Hannover Messe.
> 
> Fadnavis said, “The purpose of the visit was to impress upon the global players the ease of doing business in India and specially in Maharashtra.
> 
> And I must concede that global players showed keen interest in Maharashtra. They reckon India is the new destination. And several delegations are expected to visit Maharashtra in next few months.”
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we r going to have a gripen production line


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> uare right both su 30 which later became MKI & M2Ks (heck itwas send to sri lanka against tamil rbels with just a cannon) were fightready when indiaaquired them
> 
> but the MODbaboons and top dicission makers of IAFwant there "cut" in every deal and LCA dosent gives that
> 
> these MOFOs are happy to kill rokkie pilots in already obsolete Mig21 but dont want to induct tejas as its (500 kg's havier than planned)



Guru Bhai!!!

Sadly no body wants to HEAR THE TRUTH.

Voice of Truth is suppressed under the Cacophony and Tantrum of BS Blabber Propaganda and Whines & Cries of IAF.

But I hope for the Best and hope the "MARUT SAGA" should not be repeated again.

FOR INDIA IT IS *NOW OR NEVER*.

I hope others shall appreciate the situation for the Mother India to achieve this Cutting Edge Tech of Fighter Air Craft.

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## GURU DUTT

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Guru Bhai!!!
> 
> Sadly no body wants to HEAR THE TRUTH.
> 
> Voice of Truth is suppressed under the Cacophony and Tantrum of BS Blabber Propaganda and Whines & Cries of IAF.
> 
> But I hope for the Best and hope the "MARUT SAGA" should not be repeated again.
> 
> FOR INDIA IT IS *NOW OR NEVER*.
> 
> I hope others shall appreciate the situation for the Mother India to achieve this Cutting Edge Tech of Fighter Air Craft.


DM has said it and he is a no non sense person and he is actualli incharge and he wants LCA MK1 to be made best and for that he is pressing for giving it an AESA based Radar and sensor suite and a new landing gear and braking system + a more bigger air intakes+a better engine and yes new DM also wants to revive the kaveri project 

Tejas will be replacement of all bison/mig21 and bahadurs/mig 27 of IAF and there is a roumour that DM wants at least 4 squads of tejas before his current term is over

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## Bhoot Pishach

GURU DUTT said:


> DM has said it and he is a no non sense person and he is actualli incharge and he wants LCA MK1 to be made best and for that he is pressing for giving it an AESA based Radar and sensor suite and a new landing gear and braking system + a more bigger air intakes+a better engine and yes new DM also wants to revive the kaveri project
> 
> Tejas will be replacement of all bison/mig21 and bahadurs/mig 27 of IAF and there is a roumour that DM wants at least 4 squads of tejas before his current term is over



True Mr.Parrikar is the right person. And he is specifically doing it in very professional manner.

I Hope he succeeds in his endeavor. My best wishes to him.

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## GURU DUTT

mad_max said:


> Good for you as LCA is going nowhere.


care to explain how ?...Sir


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

Iqbal Jf17 said:


> Does it have DSI ?


welcome back @ Superboy

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## munchkin

Is SP-2 on schedule for 2016 delivery?


----------



## gslv mk3

mad_max said:


> Good for you as LCA is going nowhere.



Typical non sense.


----------



## vsdave2302

Srinivas said:


> 1)The inlets of LCA are not big enough to give high thrusts
> 2) The frontal nose section is not big enough to accommodate powerful radar.
> 
> These two are essential for dogfights !


False 
LCA has engine integration problem not small airintake. Nose cone is big er than Rafale and Grippen to accommodate Radar but it is short and hense need a plug to make it more aerodynamic.


----------



## migflug

*Rafale and the Rationale for another Light Weight Fighter*
Published April 24, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: myind.net







India has scrapped the Rs 90,000 crore (approximately $15 billion) MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets, 108 of which were to be produced in India by HAL. The move followed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s announcement April 10, 2015 that India had requested France to supply 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under a government-to-government contract.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar briefed the Indian press on the PM’s announcement on Monday, April 13, 2015. Here are some important points that he made.

_The exact number of Rafales to be eventually purchased has not been decided._

“We have not purchased all 36 aircrafts. When there is a PM or President level deal, it is matter of principle clearance. We have promised to purchase 36 aircrafts. The major reason for the deal is to induct it in the minimum time frame. It is a good deal.”

Parrikar went on to allude that the number of Rafales purchased could be larger.

In a later interview with NDTV he clarified that the option to produce Rafale locally remained on the table.

_Rafale is unaffordable as one-to-one MiG-21 replacement, as also an overkill!_

Parrikar said, “Rafale is a top end fighter and satisfies other criterion as well. The aircraft is expensive and hence we have to take steps. The deal for 126 jets would have cost Rs 90,000 crore. Rafale cannot replace MiG-21. Tejas can do that.”

He explained that the Rafale was far more capable than what a MiG-21 replacement like Tejas needed to be. Rafale can carry twice the payload (24 tonnes) of a Tejas (10-12 tonnes) and loiter for hours. The aircraft’s 1000-km combat radius far exceed the 300-450 km combat radius of existing IAF aircraft.

_Rafale is a strategic purchase._

Parrikar referred to the Rafale purchase as being strategic in nature raising speculation in the press that he was alluding to the aircraft being a nuclear weapon delivery platform.However, this is unlikely. Rafale does have a formidable range and the inbuilt ability to suppress enemy defenses while penetrating heavily contested airspace, but it would still need standoff precision guided air-to surface missiles to deliver nuclear warheads on targets. There is no evidence that France would be ready to sell such missiles to India, not to mention that the US would almost certainly scuttle such a deal with less than subtle arm twisting.

The alternative mode of nuclear weapon delivery is toss bombing, which is highly inaccurate, not to mention dangerous for the aircrew. Indeed, the air leg of India’s nuclear triad is a very dubious, if not non existent. But that is another story. Parrikar was more likely referring to the ability of the Rafale to hit Chinese industrial base.

_The IAF might induct another lightweight, single engine fighter besides the Tejas._

Parrikar said the IAF would replace its MiG-21 fleet with LCA and possibly another lightweight fighter to be locally produced.

“Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. LCA Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21. Or, if we build some other fighter under ‘Make in India’, that is also possible. If we build another single engine [fighter] in India, which is possible, that could be a replacement for the MiG-21″, said the minister.

*Clear Vision*
The government seems to have a clear vision. Its plan is to quickly halt IAF fighter fleet depletion caused by obsolescence of older MiG-21 variants, through an outright purchase of Rafale aircraft, and give itself time to explore more cost effective one-to-one MiG-21 replacement options.Strong on logic, Parrikar’s statement should have muted the press criticism of the Rafale purchase. Ironically, it has raised more hackles in a segment of the press.

Where does another lightweight fighter fit in when we have our LCA, is a recurring theme of the criticism being leveled. Why is ‘Make in India’ being abandoned? Here is a detailed explanation to both these queries.

*MiG-21 Fleet Replacement Challenge*
The MiG-21 fleet is large – almost 15 squadrons, or nearly 300 aircraft. The fleet is also far down the road towards obsolescence. The window of opportunity for the IAF to replace the fleet without dangerous depletion of its force levels is now small. Replacements need to take place at a steady and relentless pace as the looming obsolescence.

It’s true that the Tejas LCA Mk-1 is likely to become operational soon, but two important points need to be kept in mind. LCA Mk-1’s performance shortfalls and the LCA Mk-2’s uncertain development timeframe.The IAF doesn’t consider the LCA Mk-1 a worthy replacement for the MiG-21s on account of performance shortfalls caused by GTRE’s failure to develop the aircraft’s Kaveri engine; It’s well known that the Tejas doesn’t meet IAF Staff Qualitative Requirements.

The MiG-21 is primarily a home defense fighter with limited close air support ability. Tejas matches, or marginally exceeds the performance of the Bison, the most advanced MiG-21 variant. However, Tejas doesn’t have the required edge over Pakistan’s F-16 and JF-17 fighters, or Chinese J-10 and J-11 variant fighters. As a home defense fighter it should be clearly superior to enemy fighters. Remember the PLAAF will enjoy an overwhelming quantitative edge, and so will the PAF in any two front war. Without qualitative edge, the IAF will not be able to deliver on its commitment to safeguard Indian skies.The IAF is banking on the LCA Mk-2 to give it the qualitative edge that it so desperately needs Unfortunately, the Mk-2 is still on the drawing board!

In a proactive move, the IAF ordered 2 squadrons of Tejas LCA Mk-1 to streamline supply chain and maintenance support issues associated with operating the newly developed aircraft. This will ensure that when the Mk-2 (which is expected to feature large commonality of subsystems with Mk-1) is inducted into service, the aircraft can be operationally deployed in quick time.

ADA initially projected that LCA Mk-2 would make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later. Considering that the final design of the aircraft has yet to be presented to MoD for release of development funds, first flight is unlikely before 2020. If you factor in the time required to complete the test program, obtain operational clearance, etc., it becomes clear that the LCA will at best partially replace the MiG-21 fleet. Another lightweight, single engine replacement in the force mix is inevitable.

*Make in India Remains Enduring Theme*
During the press conference, Parrikar clarified that “Make in India” continues to be an enduring theme of the current government.

“Make in India part of the deal will be discussed between ministries,” he said.

In his interview with NDTV referred to above, Parrikar explains why HAL is being kept out of the Rafale deal.”If HAL were to make Rafale, why would it push production of Tejas which would reduce our need for Rafale?” he asked?

The Rafale deals stipulates 50% offset obligation so its unfair to claim that the government has abandoned ‘Make in India.’ What the government has done is not allowed the ‘Make in India’ concept to compromise the nation’s security. Pragmatism has prevailed on a matter of national security. Can the government be faulted for it?


Bhoot Pishach said:


> True Mr.Parrikar is the right person. And he is specifically doing it in very professional manner.
> 
> I Hope he succeeds in his endeavor. My best wishes to him.



*Rafale and the Rationale for another Light Weight Fighter*
Published April 24, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: myind.net






India has scrapped the Rs 90,000 crore (approximately $15 billion) MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets, 108 of which were to be produced in India by HAL. The move followed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s announcement April 10, 2015 that India had requested France to supply 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under a government-to-government contract.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar briefed the Indian press on the PM’s announcement on Monday, April 13, 2015. Here are some important points that he made.

_The exact number of Rafales to be eventually purchased has not been decided._

“We have not purchased all 36 aircrafts. When there is a PM or President level deal, it is matter of principle clearance. We have promised to purchase 36 aircrafts. The major reason for the deal is to induct it in the minimum time frame. It is a good deal.”

Parrikar went on to allude that the number of Rafales purchased could be larger.

In a later interview with NDTV he clarified that the option to produce Rafale locally remained on the table.

_Rafale is unaffordable as one-to-one MiG-21 replacement, as also an overkill!_

Parrikar said, “Rafale is a top end fighter and satisfies other criterion as well. The aircraft is expensive and hence we have to take steps. The deal for 126 jets would have cost Rs 90,000 crore. Rafale cannot replace MiG-21. Tejas can do that.”

He explained that the Rafale was far more capable than what a MiG-21 replacement like Tejas needed to be. Rafale can carry twice the payload (24 tonnes) of a Tejas (10-12 tonnes) and loiter for hours. The aircraft’s 1000-km combat radius far exceed the 300-450 km combat radius of existing IAF aircraft.

_Rafale is a strategic purchase._

Parrikar referred to the Rafale purchase as being strategic in nature raising speculation in the press that he was alluding to the aircraft being a nuclear weapon delivery platform.However, this is unlikely. Rafale does have a formidable range and the inbuilt ability to suppress enemy defenses while penetrating heavily contested airspace, but it would still need standoff precision guided air-to surface missiles to deliver nuclear warheads on targets. There is no evidence that France would be ready to sell such missiles to India, not to mention that the US would almost certainly scuttle such a deal with less than subtle arm twisting.

The alternative mode of nuclear weapon delivery is toss bombing, which is highly inaccurate, not to mention dangerous for the aircrew. Indeed, the air leg of India’s nuclear triad is a very dubious, if not non existent. But that is another story. Parrikar was more likely referring to the ability of the Rafale to hit Chinese industrial base.

_The IAF might induct another lightweight, single engine fighter besides the Tejas._

Parrikar said the IAF would replace its MiG-21 fleet with LCA and possibly another lightweight fighter to be locally produced.

“Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. LCA Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21. Or, if we build some other fighter under ‘Make in India’, that is also possible. If we build another single engine [fighter] in India, which is possible, that could be a replacement for the MiG-21″, said the minister.

*Clear Vision*
The government seems to have a clear vision. Its plan is to quickly halt IAF fighter fleet depletion caused by obsolescence of older MiG-21 variants, through an outright purchase of Rafale aircraft, and give itself time to explore more cost effective one-to-one MiG-21 replacement options.Strong on logic, Parrikar’s statement should have muted the press criticism of the Rafale purchase. Ironically, it has raised more hackles in a segment of the press.

Where does another lightweight fighter fit in when we have our LCA, is a recurring theme of the criticism being leveled. Why is ‘Make in India’ being abandoned? Here is a detailed explanation to both these queries.

*MiG-21 Fleet Replacement Challenge*
The MiG-21 fleet is large – almost 15 squadrons, or nearly 300 aircraft. The fleet is also far down the road towards obsolescence. The window of opportunity for the IAF to replace the fleet without dangerous depletion of its force levels is now small. Replacements need to take place at a steady and relentless pace as the looming obsolescence.

It’s true that the Tejas LCA Mk-1 is likely to become operational soon, but two important points need to be kept in mind. LCA Mk-1’s performance shortfalls and the LCA Mk-2’s uncertain development timeframe.The IAF doesn’t consider the LCA Mk-1 a worthy replacement for the MiG-21s on account of performance shortfalls caused by GTRE’s failure to develop the aircraft’s Kaveri engine; It’s well known that the Tejas doesn’t meet IAF Staff Qualitative Requirements.

The MiG-21 is primarily a home defense fighter with limited close air support ability. Tejas matches, or marginally exceeds the performance of the Bison, the most advanced MiG-21 variant. However, Tejas doesn’t have the required edge over Pakistan’s F-16 and JF-17 fighters, or Chinese J-10 and J-11 variant fighters. As a home defense fighter it should be clearly superior to enemy fighters. Remember the PLAAF will enjoy an overwhelming quantitative edge, and so will the PAF in any two front war. Without qualitative edge, the IAF will not be able to deliver on its commitment to safeguard Indian skies.The IAF is banking on the LCA Mk-2 to give it the qualitative edge that it so desperately needs Unfortunately, the Mk-2 is still on the drawing board!

In a proactive move, the IAF ordered 2 squadrons of Tejas LCA Mk-1 to streamline supply chain and maintenance support issues associated with operating the newly developed aircraft. This will ensure that when the Mk-2 (which is expected to feature large commonality of subsystems with Mk-1) is inducted into service, the aircraft can be operationally deployed in quick time.

ADA initially projected that LCA Mk-2 would make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later. Considering that the final design of the aircraft has yet to be presented to MoD for release of development funds, first flight is unlikely before 2020. If you factor in the time required to complete the test program, obtain operational clearance, etc., it becomes clear that the LCA will at best partially replace the MiG-21 fleet. Another lightweight, single engine replacement in the force mix is inevitable.

*Make in India Remains Enduring Theme*
During the press conference, Parrikar clarified that “Make in India” continues to be an enduring theme of the current government.

“Make in India part of the deal will be discussed between ministries,” he said.

In his interview with NDTV referred to above, Parrikar explains why HAL is being kept out of the Rafale deal.”If HAL were to make Rafale, why would it push production of Tejas which would reduce our need for Rafale?” he asked?

The Rafale deals stipulates 50% offset obligation so its unfair to claim that the government has abandoned ‘Make in India.’ What the government has done is not allowed the ‘Make in India’ concept to compromise the nation’s security. Pragmatism has prevailed on a matter of national security. Can the government be faulted for it?

*The purchase of Rafale fighters points to India’s failed defence indigenisation plans*
Published April 24, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: ECONOMIC TIMES






In all the confusion that hangs over the Modi government’s decision to procure 36 Rafale fighters ‘off the shelf’, we need to focus on the real issues. First, the imperative of plugging the shortages in the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s combat strength. Second, to once again kickstart the decades-old effort to develop a fighter of our own.

We started to design and build our own combat aircraft in the late 1950s. The HF-24 Marut programme was a spectacular, though limited success. The country failed to build on it and allowed the capabilities built up through the programme to rust. Over the years, India has licence-manufactured or assembled the MiG -21, the Jaguar and the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI. Yet it has picked up little by way of an aviation design and manufacturing capability. Whatever we have is, unsurprisingly, the progeny of the HF-24 programme.

Many institutions, primarily the IAF itself, must share the blame for the current state of affairs. As Admiral Arun Prakash has noted, had the IAF assumed ‘ownership’ of indigenous projects like the HT-2, HJT-36 trainers and the LCA (light combat aircraft) Tejas early enough, it would not be seeking advanced fighters or even trainers from abroad today.

But is there a way forward? The first challenge is to deal with the crisis in 2017 when four MiG-21 and five MiG-27 squadrons retire. This amounts to some 200 aircraft. Already, there are some eight ‘number plated’ squadrons — formations without aircraft. This amounts to another 150 aircraft. The remaining six squadrons of MiG-21 Bisons are soldiering along, but are in the last stages of their lives.

The IAF brass seems to be insisting that these far less capable machines be replaced one-on-one by advanced fighters, which is simply not economically feasible. Even so, 36 Rafales will not do the trick. So presumably the government will go for another tranche, when it has the money. As of now, the statements of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikarhave resulted in more confusion than clarity.

Plugging gaps is one challenge. Developing indigenous design and development capability is another. Here, all is not lost. Today we have the LCA Mk 1 flying and the engineers and designers who have worked on it remain with the Aeronautical Development Agency. Despite its limitations, brought on by a flawed design, it is a good flying machine and perfectly capable of delivering close air support and functioning as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT).

Some years ago, a well-known German company had offered to assist HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) to industrialise the LCA’s production and market it abroad, as it felt there was definite market for 250-odd LCAs in this role. The German company did not even merit the courtesy of a reply.

There has been a lot of talk about a Mark II version of the LCA aircraft with a slightly better (GE414) engine. However, the structural changes it requires will add weight to the existing design and negate the advantage of the new engine.

We need to cut the chase and go straight for the design of a twin-engined fifth generation fighter, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) which is on the drawing board. The government needs to give it a determined push.

The US has the F-22 fifth generation fighter in combat service since 2005 and is now developing the F-35. China has two fifth generation fighters — the J-20 and J-31 under development with Pakistan as a potential customer. Russia has its T-50 FGFA. The French, Germans and British seem to have dropped out and want to develop unmanned aircraft like the Neuron.

The action is in Asia, with Japan (Mitsubishi ATD-X), Turkey (TAI-TFX) and South Korea (KF-X) having fifth generation fighter programmes. All of them have understandably sought deep design and development expertise from established companies like Lockheed Martin, Saab, BAE Systems and Boeing.

There are formidable technological challenges in such an enterprise and we need the help of established players to hold our hands. We had a deal with the Russians for the development of a fifth generation fighter, but it has been a rip-off. We have got little by way of R&D spin-offs and we will simply end up amortising the development costs of yet another fighter like the Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI and, perhaps now, the Rafale.

At the heart of the problem is the dysfunctional defence management and planning process. The IAF — and the Indian Army’s — inflated assessment of their requirements are related to the defence minister’s operational directive to the armed forces that they prepare for a two-front war. This has led the IAF to claim that it needs 42 fighter squadrons and the army to raise a new Mountain Strike Corps.

The difference between planning for all-out war and a limited one is hundreds of thousands of crores of the taxpayer’s precious money. What the country needs are much sharper assessments of the threats it confronts through a document which is based on expert assessments and approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security.


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## Techy

Tejas low-flying combo pix :










( seems rather old one though probably taken during Aero India 2015 )

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## 1 naga warrior

Techy said:


> Tejas low-flying combo pix :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( seems rather old one though probably taken during Aero India 2015 )


Can our mk2 beat a f16?


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## Etilla

Why is Parrikar campaigning for Gripen?


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## The_Sidewinder

1 naga warrior said:


> Can our mk2 beat a f16?



At this moment nope. We have to wait till Mkii is fully developped. With AESA radar & better ew suit & arnament it certainly can. But probability is more of a f16 block 52+ due to top notch AESA & AMRAAM.


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## Etilla

1 naga warrior said:


> Can our mk2 beat a f16?



Drdo hybrid mmr 45km range vs An apg 68 120km range

Tejas is sitting duck


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## 1 naga warrior

Who told u tht drdo hybrid mmr is just 45 km in range.its a hybrid mmr based on elta 2032 .when quartz nose will b placed its range will b more thn 100 km..anyways I am not comparing lca mk1 with paf f16 block 40 or 52..lca mk 1 will b used purely to counter jf17 or chengdu fighter..i am talking about lca mk2 and f16 block 60 used by uae and which was on mmrca offer to india


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## vsdave2302

1 naga warrior said:


> Can our mk2 beat a f16?


Which block


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## Matrixx

vsdave2302 said:


> Which block


whatever bock Pakistan have


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## sathya

#PlaneMorning Good news. #TejasFOC on track. 

Unlikely to miss Dec deadline: ADA-HAL.
*All hardware to be in by June*.

pic.twitter.com/ysLs304Qb0

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## Etilla

1 naga warrior said:


> Who told u tht drdo hybrid mmr is just 45 km in range.its a hybrid mmr based on elta 2032 .when quartz nose will b placed its range will b more thn 100 km..anyways I am not comparing lca mk1 with paf f16 block 40 or 52..lca mk 1 will b used purely to counter jf17 or chengdu fighter..i am talking about lca mk2 and f16 block 60 used by uae and which was on mmrca offer to india



Not as per DG AERONAUTICS TAMILMANI

Tejas mk2 does not exist
F-16 blk 60 in service


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## rockstarIN

Etilla said:


> Drdo hybrid mmr 45km range vs An apg 68 120km range
> 
> Tejas is sitting duck



Is that the reason IsAF preferred the same ELTA/2032 over APG 68 in their F-16s but denied by Americans?


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## GURU DUTT

Etilla said:


> Drdo hybrid mmr 45km range vs An apg 68 120km range
> 
> Tejas is sitting duck


your wrong bhaijaan 

range of LCAs EL/M-2032 is 80Km for 2sq mtrs airal target and RCS of any PAFs current fighter platforms in in acess of 2 sq mtrs and that too in a clean configration while RCS of tejas is way less than 2 sq mtrs so its not a "sitting duck" + the fact that its going to be used as a point defnce and playing a third fiddle toair defnce of india i guess for now its good enof & two types of desi AESA radars are already in testing phase for LCA which will almost double its current range if not more 



rockstarIN said:


> Is that the reason IsAF preferred the same ELTA/2032 over APG 68 in their F-16s but denied by Americans?


that was long back now USA is ready to give india even the AESA version of APG 68

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## sathya

Did Chinese media agree that Tejas is technological superior aircraft then JF-17 ? | idrw.org


An article in Sina’s Chinese-language military news web portal compared the abilities of India’s HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and the FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder developed jointly by China and Pakistan.

Overview of the Aircraft

The HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was named by former Indian prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee. The development plan was approved by the Indian government in 1983. The government’s requirements for the Tejas were to develop an all-weather supersonic LCA which could replace the MiG-21. Its main mission is to fight for control of airspace and to offer short-range support. The development of the Tejas wasn’t a simple process, as it included a completely new engine, avionics and weapons systems, in line with global standards. The first test plane was unveiled on Nov. 17, 1995 and made its maiden flight on Jan. 4, 2001.

The design for the PAC JF-17 Thunder, also known as the FC-1 Xiaolong, began with the “Super 7″ plan launched jointly by China and US aircraft maker Grumman to develop an upgraded version of the F-7, but Grumman left the project after sanctions were placed on China by the US in the wake of the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989. China and Pakistan subsequently signed a memorandum of understanding to design a new fighter together in 1995. The requirements for the fighter were that it make use of advanced technology, that it be a completely new design and that it approach the combat capabilities of third-generation fighters. It also needed to be light, cheap to produce and capable of carrying a large payload. The first plane took its maiden flight in 2003 and the third aircraft made a successful test flight in April of 2004. In the same year, the state-owned China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) and the Pakistan Air Force signed a contract for the production of the FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder, the new designations of what had been the Super 7. On April 28, 2006, weapons systems and avionics were installed in the fourth aircraft and it made a successful test flight. The avionics systems were developed by China. On Sept. 10, 2006, the sixth JF-17 made its maiden flight.

*Aerodynamic Configuration*

There are clear differences in the shape of the two planes. The Xiaolong has horizontal tail-planes and a conventional aerodynamic structure, while the Tejas has no horizontal tail-planes on its triangular structure.

The lack of a (horizontal) tail is a unique feature of the Tejas, making it similar to the Dassault Mirage series of fighters. The plane also has a delta-wing configuration, which is the reverse of normal delta-wing fighters in that the angle of the sweep of the outer wing section is larger than the angle of the sweep of the inner wing section. The reverse configuration is normally used to balance supersonic and subsonic or transonic capabilities. The Tejas has an angle of incidence from the main axis of the wing, which gives the whole plane a larger dihedral force, improving its supersonic capabilities.

The Xiaolong has a trapezoid-shaped wing configuration, with a larger wing-aspect ratio and a smaller induced drag, therefore at high-altitude subsonic speed, the entire plane has a higher lift-drag ratio. The large wings that extend to the inlets on both sides of the plane’s body not only improve the aircraft’s lift during high-angle-of-attack flight but also help improve the maneuverability of the plane. The eddies created during high-angle-of-attack flight are also relatively stable, which reduces the chance of sudden drops in lift and improves the balance of the plane. It also improves the directivity of the nose of the plane in close-range combat.

In summary, in conventional air warfare, at an altitude of around 8,000 meters and a speed of Mach 0.8-1.2, the Xiaolong performs better in terms of acceleration, climb, stability and other combat capabilities. The Tejas’ advantage lies in its low wing aspect ratio and its relatively low wave drag, which makes it superior to the Xiaolong in supersonic conditions.

*Inlet Design*

Both planes have intake cowls on both sides, but the Xiaolong’s design is better as it is more functional, improves the plane’s stealth capabilities and reduces its weight.

The Tejas uses the V-shaped air inlets typical of light fighters, the air inlets gather together towards the rear, sheltering the blades of the engine’s axial compressor, preventing the scattering of radar, and adding to the craft’s stealth capabilities. The oval air intakes are similar to the F/A-18C/D Hornet, with a diverter structure around them. All in all the design is in line with convention and has not shown much innovation.

The Xiaolong’s air intake design is a little more imaginative and more advanced. It uses a diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI), scrapping the diverter structure used around the air intakes, as well as the air bleed and air bypass structures of most conventional supersonic aircraft. Through use of a three-dimensional compression surface to divert the boundary layer airflow at high subsonic and supersonic speeds, there is no longer a need for supplementary air inlets or bleed doors. This has the effect of lightening the structure, reducing drag and radar return. The air inlets are forward sweeping in a ramp formation, which reduces wave drag or surface interference.

*Materials*

As the Xiaolong was developed exclusively for export, to control costs, its body is mainly constructed with aluminum alloy as opposed to more popular composite material. The Tejas, however, has put an emphasis on reducing weight, and so it has used a lot of composite material. Forty-five percent of the plane’s total weight is comprised of composite materials, including the fuselage, its vertical tailfin, the skin, the spars and the ribs of the wings, the elevons, the rudder, the air brakes and the landing gear doors. This cuts the plane’s empty weight by 5.5 tons, making it almost 1 ton lighter than the Xiaolong, which means it can carry more fuel and a heavier load. The plane has a cargo-internal fuel ratio of around 30%, which improves its combat abilities.

*Propulsion Systems*

Although the Tejas’ F414 engine is superior in terms of functionality, durability and life span to the Xiaolong’s RD93 engine, it is also more expensive.

The choice of an engine has been problematic in the development of both aircraft. Those developing the Xiaolong had the choice of the commonly used F404, Pratt & Whitney’s PW1216, the Turbo-Union RB199, the Snecma M88 and the Russian RD33. After considering different parameters, such as the combat radius, external storage and flexibility, they chose the RD-93 afterburning turbofan due to its low fuel uptake and its reasonable price.

The RD-93 is a variant of the RD-33 developed specifically for the Xiaolong, the main changes being the repositioning of the gearbox along the bottom of the engine casing and its mechanical turbine control. It employs a four-stage fan and nine high pressure stage compressor, with military thrust of 50 kiloNewtons (kN) and 81.3 kN thrust with afterburner, an augmented thrust ratio of 1.628, an overall pressure ratio of 21:1, a bypass ratio of 0.48:1, a normal gross takeoff weight of 9.1 tons and a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1, which gives it a longer range and better flying and propulsion capabilities.

The original plan for the LCA Tejas was that it would be fitted with the GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan engine, but the development of the engine ran into a hitch, so they had to adopt the F414 instead. The engine was developed on the basis of the General Electric F404 and has an axial compressor with three fan and seven compressor stages and a turbine with one low-pressure and one high-pressure stage. Compared with the F404, the F414 has augmented thrust by 35%, pushing it to 60 kN military thrust and 98 kN with afterburner. Its thrust-weight ratio has been pushed to 9:1. India purchased the custom-made F414-GE-INS5 model, which has similar capabilities to the F414-GE-400, with a fully digital control system, more advanced than the RD-93’s mechanical turbine control, making it quicker to react and more accurate.

The F414 engine has an advantage over the RD-93 engine, as its technology is more advanced; it has greater thrust and is more reliable. The RD-93 was designed in the 1970s and is a little past its best in terms of design, but it does offer more stability, a better price and a high quality-price ratio. However, the Xiaolong will likely adopt the Chinese WS-13 engine in the future. The WS-13 is an improved version of the RD-93 engine, with a better design and more attention to materials and details in its production. It also uses the full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system, which creates the possibility that it may be smaller than the F-414.

*Avionics and Flight Control Systems*

The LCA Tejas’ avionics system has a top-down design and has made use of line-replaceable unit technology, ensuring smooth coordination and the minimum degree of interdependence. The Tejas’ avionics system was designed by France, with three 1553B serial buses and two centralized 32-bit, high-throughput mission computers, including a communications subsystem, a mission subsystem, a self-defense system and a guidance and flight system. It uses ELTA’s EL/M2032 radar system, which works in the X-band range, designed for both air-to-air and ground strike missions. It is effective within a range of 37-75 km.

The Xiaolong’s avionics also have a top-down design, with an onboard computer and a 1553B serial bus at the center, integrating several systems, including the cockpit display and control system, task management systems and fire control systems. It is equipped with autonomous navigation technology and can attack land, air and sea targets, tracking while scanning. If the users can afford it, it can also be equipped with globally competitive avionics systems. It can be equipped with the KLJ-7 X-band fire and control radar, for example, which has 14 air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, and can follow 10 targets while in track and scan mode. It can also unleash an attack at two targets simultaneously. Its mid-range guided missiles can also hit targets beyond visual range. For targets of 5 meters squared, its range in look-down search mode is 105 km and 85 km in look-down mode.

Chinese avionics have come a long way in recent years and even in comparison with the Western avionics system used in the LCA Tejas, it doesn’t lose out in terms of capability and its search range is greater and functionality greater than that of the Tejas.

*Flight Control Systems*

The flight system of the Tejas has a more complicated origin. Originally the aircraft was set to be equipped with a FADEC system developed jointly by Lockheed Martin and India, however, an Indian nuclear test led to sanctions being implemented against the country, ending the US-Indian cooperative endeavor. India then looked to Russian aircraft manufacturer Mikoyan and Moscow Air Production Organization for help, until the sanctions were revoked in 2001. India then ordered actuators from London-based BAE Systems, which were handed over in 2003. Then Lockheed Martin joined the development project once again. This lengthy process slowed down the entire development of the aircraft. Overall, the core parts of the system were completed by Lockheed Martin, although this information has yet to be released to the public. The Indian media have reported that the flight control system is a match for the F-16C/D Fighting Falcon’s relaxed static stability/fly-by-wire flight control system.

The Xiaolong’s flight control systems make use of a longitudinal FADEC system, with two fly-by-wire back-up systems. The FADEC system improves stability across the yaw and roll axis. It has overcome a few flaws in its aerodynamics to allow for more maneuverability. It is also relatively low in price.

*Combat Ability*

There is no real competition between the two aircraft in terms of combat ability. The Xiaolong has already completely developed its combat capabilities, with the ability to fire radar-guided air-to-air SD-10 missiles, air-launched C-802AK anti-ship missiles and precision bombs. The LCA Tejas, on the other hand, has just entered service, so it hasn’t developed its combat abilities as yet, so the only way to compare the two is to look at the weapons they will likely use and their weapon pylons.

Those behind both the Tejas and the Xiaolong demanded comprehensive combat capabilities for the two fighters, to allow them to use a diverse range of weaponry. The fixed weapon on both fighters is a double-barreled 23 mm aircraft gun. The difference between them is that the Tejas’ gun is sourced from Russia, whereas the Xiaolong uses China’s variant of the gun. The LCA has eight weapon pylons on the entire plane, with three under each wing, one under the central body of the plane, and one under the air inlets on the left side of the plane. This allows the plane to make use of a wide range of the weapon systems of the Indian Army. This includes mid and close-range air-to-air missiles, precision-guided weapons, air-to-surface (including anti-ship) missiles, conventional and retarded bombs, cluster bombs and unguided rockets. The pylons can carry a maximum weight of 4 tons. The Xiaolong has 7 external pylons, two at the tips of the wings, four under the wings and one on the belly of the fuselage. This allows it to carry the beyond-visual-range radar guided SD-10 missile and the PL-9 short-range, infrared-homing air-to-air missile, as well as air-to-surface missiles, such as anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, laser-guided bombs, anti-runway penetration bombs and cluster bombs. It can also carry three high-capacity subsidiary oil tanks. It can carry a total of 3.6 tons externally.



The two fighters are aimed primarily at air-to-air combat, while still maintaining ground strike and anti-ship attack capabilities. The Xiaolong will likely carry two PL-5EII air-to-air homing missiles, two SD-10 mid-range air-to-air missiles and two or three subsidiary oil tanks in its standard configuration. When engaging in beyond-visual range combat, it will likely carry four SD-10 missiles. The LCA Tejas will likely be equipped with the Israeli Python-4 air-to-air missile and the Derby medium-range active radar homing missile. The Python-4 approaches the PL-5EII in terms of its capabilities, but the range of the Derby missile is a lot shorter than that of the SD-10, so the Xiaolong has the advantage in terms of beyond visual range combat.

Overall, the LCA Tejas and the Xiaolong are matched in terms of their weapons pylons and as India’s own weapon production abilities are quite limited, the LCA Tejas makes use of mainly Western and Russian advanced weapon systems, which makes for a scattered weapon set, which is more challenging for the pilot to manage. The Xiaolong’s weapon systems and nacelle are all designed by China, which makes for more coordination between its weapons systems and a good price-to-quality ratio, which is a big advantage for the Xiaolong.

*Conclusion*

The Tejas is a light multirole fighter fit for the 21st century. It uses a lot of new technology and innovation, such as its use of large amounts of composite materials, its advanced avionics system and its unique aerodynamic configuration. In terms of functionality, the LCA Tejas has good potential to be expanded into variants. For example, at a time when the air force version is yet to be commissioned widely, a ship-based version of the aircraft has already been released. The Xiaolong is a third-generation model designed for the international market. The use of off-the-shelf materials not only cuts costs but also reduces risks in the design process and improves the reliability of the aircraft. This will not make it the best aircraft, but rather a standard, cheap and reliable model for air-to-air combat. In summation, t*he Xiaolong is the aircraft of today and the Tejas is the aircraft of tomorrow.*


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## Superboy

sathya said:


> making it almost 1 ton lighter than the Xiaolong



JF-17 is 14,520 lb empty. Tejas is 14,300 lb empty. 1 ton = 2,000 lb. Tejas is 220 lb lighter than JF-17, not 1 ton. Article wrong.


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## Water Car Engineer

Superboy said:


> JF-17 is 14,520 lb empty. Tejas is 14,300 lb empty. 1 ton = 2,000 lb. Tejas is 220 lb lighter than JF-17, not 1 ton. Article wrong.



omfgawd @ptldM3


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## sathya

Superboy said:


> JF-17 is 14,520 lb empty. Tejas is 14,300 lb empty. 1 ton = 2,000 lb. Tejas is 220 lb lighter than JF-17, not 1 ton. Article wrong.



welcome back !
yes, i know article is not accurate and not upto date ...
for eg jf 17 can carry 4000kg weapons now..

but its a good read, giving the plus and minus of both aircraft..


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## sancho

Etilla said:


> Drdo hybrid mmr 45km range vs An apg 68 120km range
> 
> Tejas is sitting duck



The one evaluated against 2m² targets and with the nose material issue, the other on 5m² targets, which makes them comparable again, if you choose the same target size. Rafael gives the EL 2032 with up to 136Km against a 5m² target and we know that the LCA has a pretty large nose diameter for it's overall size, therefor good detection range after the new nose is integrated, would not be that surprising. But that alone doesn't make it superior or inferior, it has it's good sides and it's bad sides, just as any fighter.

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## ptldM3

Water Car Engineer said:


> omfgawd @ptldM3





The enlightened one has made his triumphant return.


My first reaction >>>>> Wwe Animated GIF

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## Superboy

When is SP-2 done?


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## Mujraparty

*CAG picks holes in LCA project, says it fails to meet IAF*


India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project, in the works for over three decades, came under severe criticism from CAG today, which said the* Mark-I version has several shortcomings and does not meet IAF specifications.*

Not only that, IAF would be "constrained" to induct the fighter LCA without availability of a trainer model, thereby "adversely impacting pilot training", the audit body said in a report tabled in Parliament.

The CAG noted that it was due to the delay in the manufacture and supply of LCA that IAF had to go for alternative temporary measures such as upgrading its MIG BIS, MiG-29, Jaguar, and Mirage aircraft at a cost of Rs 20,037 crore and revise the phasing out of MiG-21s.

Listing the shortcomings, the *CAG said that the LCA Mark-I fails to meet the electronic warfare capabilities sought by IAF as the Self-Protection Jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints.*

*Also, it said that the Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcom*e (January 2015).

The LCA Mark-I, which got Initial Operational Clearance in December, *2013, significantly falls short (20 permanent waivers/33 temporary concessions) in meeting the Air Staff Requirement (ASR), the CAG said, adding that that has led to reduced operational capabilities and survivability and, consequently, its operational employability*.

*It added that the shortcomings in the Mark-I (increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of fuel system protection, pilot protection from front, reduced speed) are expected to be overcome in the Mark-II model.*

*"LCA Mark-I does not meet the ASR. The deficiencies are now expected to be met in LCA Mark-II by December 2018," the CAG said.*

While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, *as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January this year.*

Systems such as Kaveri engine, Multi-Mode Radar, Radome, Multi-Functional Display System and Flight Control System Actuators taken up for indigenous development could not be developed successfully, resulting in LCA's continued dependence on the import of these systems, CAG said.

IAF had proposed in the early 1980s that a new aircraft be developed to replace the MiG-21 fleet, manufactured during 1966 and 1987, after its phasing out in the 1990s.

CAG picks holes in LCA project, says it fails to meet IAF | Business Standard News

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## Superboy

So I take it SP-2 is delayed because it did not fly in March as planned. 

Manohar Parrikar says IAF will finally get Tejas by March 2015 - Oneindia


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## Etilla

sancho said:


> The one evaluated against 2m² targets and with the nose material issue, the other on 5m² targets, which makes them comparable again, if you choose the same target size. Rafael gives the EL 2032 with up to 136Km against a 5m² target and we know that the LCA has a pretty large nose diameter for it's overall size, therefor good detection range after the new nose is integrated, would not be that surprising. But that alone doesn't make it superior or inferior, it has it's good sides and it's bad sides, just as any fighter.



tejas does not have EL/M 2032 
Only IAF Jaguars and IN Harriers have it


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## I M Sikander

LCA will not be able to penetrate enemy lines


KALYAN RAY, NEW DELHI, MAY 08,2015, DHNS:

Tejas light combat aircraft
The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) will experience a major handicap in defeating the enemy due to non-availability and poor performance of three electronic warfare instruments, developed by Indian agencies.


During the trial, the all-important counter measure dispensing system that protects the aircraft against radar and heat-seeking missiles, could not do its job properly, leaving the jet with poor defence. The system was developed by , Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Limited.

It was not the only faltering system on-board the LCA. The self protection jammer that blocks the enemy radar was too big to be fitted into the Mark-I version of the LCA and the radar warning receiver, which alerts the pilots on hostile enemy signals, perform poorly. Both were developed by Bangaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment.


"LCA Mark-I remains deficient in full electronic warfare capabilities as specified in the Air Staff Requirement (ASR),” the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) says in a review report that was tabled in Parliament on Friday.

The aircraft, which achieved initial operational clearances on December 2013, has as many as 53 shortfalls from the specifications drawn in the ASR.


Some of the shortcomings like increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, pilot protection from the front and reduced speed are to be addressed in the Mark-II version that was taken up by the Aeronautical Development Agency in 2009 and scheduled for completion in 2018.

Even after 30 years, the LCA could get only the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2013. The full operational clearance (FOC) is now targeted in December, 2015.

The cost is also rising all these years. What began as a Rs 560 crore programme in 1983 has now gone up by almost twenty times. The financial package for LCA now stands at Rs 8294 crore.

The auditor also criticised the Defence Ministry for awarding two commercial contracts to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 2006 and 2010 for delivering 20 fighter planes in each contract in the IOC and FOC configurations respectively to the IAF.

Both were termed premature because in 2006 LCA design was nowhere near finalisation, whereas in 2010 HAL was yet to supply any aircraft to the force as per the previous contract. Even now, the IAF is not in a to operationalise the LCA squadron in the absence of a trainer aircraft. Moreover, HAL’s production capacity - four aircraft per year - is only half of what the government wants.
DH News Serice


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## sancho

Etilla said:


> tejas does not have EL/M 2032
> Only IAF Jaguars and IN Harriers have it



It will, since the MMR is mainly based on the EL 2032, because the DRDO radar development could not deliver a useful system. Now the "hybrid" is mainly an EL2032, Indian subsystems and most likely the same will be used for the Jaguar upgrade, most likely with a smaller diameter though.

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## Etilla

sancho said:


> It will, since the MMR is mainly based on the EL 2032, because the DRDO radar development could not deliver a useful system. Now the "hybrid" is mainly an EL2032, Indian subsystems and most likely the same will be used for the Jaguar upgrade, most likely with a smaller diameter though.



You are wrong.

The DRDO MMR which is on Tejas has 45km radar range and is NOT the El/M 2032 as the IAF Jaguars have with 150km Air-Air range and 300km Air-Ground/Sea range.

Tejas is hopelessness outclassed by its fellow 3rd platforms like Mig-21 Bison which has nearly double the radar range.


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## Dazzler

Etilla said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> The DRDO MMR which is on Tejas has 45km radar range and is NOT the El/M 2032 as the IAF Jaguars have with 150km Air-Air range and 300km Air-Ground/Sea range.
> 
> Tejas is hopelessness outclassed by its fellow 3rd platforms like Mig-21 Bison which has nearly double the radar range.



Fantasy figures at best.


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## Agent_47

For those who are interested - 
CAG report on LCA - Report no-17 0f 2015

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## IND151

50% of Rafale deal value will be invested in India: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar | idrw.org


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> For those who are interested -
> CAG report on LCA - Report no-17 0f 2015



Disappointing when all the problems are shown like that, but an interesting read!


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## I M Sikander

sancho said:


> Disappointing when all the problems are shown like that, but an interesting read!


CGA giving a reality check to lca fan boys. Its like auditers. Removed the lca underwear.


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## Jayanta

Ranasikander said:


> CGA giving a reality check to lca fan boys. Its like auditers. Removed the lca underwear.



WTF is CGA ?? And BTW is there a central auditing body in your country...or is it all you can eat for the Generals and Politicians.


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## I M Sikander

Jayanta said:


> WTF is CGA ?? And BTW is there a central auditing body in your country...or is it all you can eat for the Generals and Politicians.


I can understand your anger.
I know its diffucult to digest the impotency of LCA.

I know its really hard for immature LCA fan boys.


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## Jayanta

Ranasikander said:


> I can understand your anger.
> I know its diffucult to digest the impotency of LCA.
> 
> I know its really hard for immature LCA fan boys.



Firstly, you Didn't reply my question?? What is CGA??? What does CGA stand for and what are its function. 
Secondly, madrassa educated people should refrain from commenting on things they have no knowledge whatsoever. Just sit and read the book you are meant to read. And if you really want to debate at least have the decency to write the correct thing, PERIOD


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## sancho

Ranasikander said:


> CGA giving a reality check to lca fan boys. Its like auditers. Removed the lca underwear.



Not at all, since there are plenty of good sides of the project, let alone the fighter too. It's even good that we have such an agency that keeps check on such developments and put pressure on DRDO to fix the problems.

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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/598072690491011072


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## Storm Force

Earlier than I thought 

Good news


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## sathya

4(2014-15)
+4(2015-16)
+6(2016-17)
+6(2017-18)

this is seriously slow...

what happened to 35 air crafts in FOC configuration ?
what happened to mk1.5 

taking time & making a smooth transition to mk2 ?

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## I M Sikander

Jayanta said:


> Firstly, you Didn't reply my question?? What is CGA??? What does CGA stand for and what are its function.
> Secondly, madrassa educated people should refrain from commenting on things they have no knowledge whatsoever. Just sit and read the book you are meant to read. And if you really want to debate at least have the decency to write the correct thing, PERIOD


Better do some home work before writing on forums like a kindergarten kid

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## Jayanta

Ranasikander said:


> Better do some home work before writing on forums like a kindergarten kid



I am not the kid there....you are the one. BW It's CAG not CGA..LOL BC pehle pad liya kar.


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## sancho

sathya said:


> 4(2014-15)
> +4(2015-16)
> +6(2016-17)
> +6(2017-18)
> 
> this is seriously slow...
> 
> what happened to 35 air crafts in FOC configuration ?
> what happened to mk1.5
> 
> taking time & making a smooth transition to mk2 ?



Don't mix delivery / induction into IAF, with production! The production plan reportedly peaks at 16 per year from 2017 onwards, so the first 20 and some of the 2nd squad will be "produced" in 2017, but induction of into IAF in full squadron service will be be later. That's standard procedure, we have more MKIs produced now than we have in service, just as there are are more Rafales or EF's produced than in service. The induction time line is dependent on the requirements of the force, be it to phase out an older fighter first, be it to raise a new air base, or to add new capabilities to the fighter, that wasn't already available in the production. If HAL can keep the promise of 16 per year, it's a pretty good pace, but then again, with the MK2 development possibly delayed, it's pointless to have high production per year and then stop it, because the MK2 is not available and there are no more orders for the MK1. Would be great if we can bridge the gap with some exports, but that will be difficult.

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## I M Sikander

Jayanta said:


> I am not the kid there....you are the one. BW It's CAG not CGA..LOL BC pehle pad liya kar.


You know some thing called typing error.i am sure as a kid , you dont.
Haha , so you are not kid. Did your kindergarten teacher told you this?


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## salarsikander

Indian Auditor Faults LCA Aircraft Project, Says it Fails to Meet Air Force’s Needs

India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project, in the works for over three decades, came under severe criticism from the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) on Friday, which said the Mark-I version has several shortcomings and does not meet IAF specifications.

Not only that, Indian Air Force (IAF) would be “constrained” to induct the fighter LCA without availability of a trainer model, thereby “adversely impacting pilot training”, the audit body said in a report tabled in Parliament.

The CAG noted that it was due to the delay in the manufacture and supply of LCA that IAF had to go for alternative temporary measures such as upgrading its MIG BIS, MiG-29, Jaguar, and Mirage aircraft at a cost of Rs. 20,037 crore and revise the phasing out of MiG-21s.

Listing the shortcomings, the CAG said that the LCA Mark-I fails to meet the electronic warfare capabilities sought by IAF as the Self-Protection Jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints.

Also, it said that the Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcome (January 2015).

The LCA Mark-I, which got Initial Operational Clearance in December, 2013, significantly falls short (20 permanent waivers/33 temporary concessions) in meeting the Air Staff Requirement (ASR), the CAG said, adding that that has led to reduced operational capabilities and survivability and, consequently, its operational employability.

It added that the shortcomings in the Mark-I (increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of fuel system protection, pilot protection from front, reduced speed) are expected to be overcome in the Mark-II model.

“LCA Mark-I does not meet the ASR. The deficiencies are now expected to be met in LCA Mark-II by December 2018,” the CAG said.

While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it “actually worked out to about 35 per cent” as of January this year.

Systems such as Kaveri engine, Multi-Mode Radar, Radome, Multi-Functional Display System and Flight Control System Actuators taken up for indigenous development could not be developed successfully, resulting in LCA’s continued dependence on the import of these systems, CAG said

IAF had proposed in the early 1980s that a new aircraft be developed to replace the MiG-21 fleet, manufactured during 1966 and 1987, after its phasing out in the 1990s.

The project for indigenous design and development of LCA was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs. 560 crore, which was enhanced from time to time up to Rs. 10,397.11 crore.

The government in June, 1984, constituted an Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as a dedicated institution for the management of the LCA project.

IAF had issued Air Staff Requirement (ASR) in October, 1985, envisaging a light-weight multi-mission fighter with contemporary air combat and offensive air support capabilities and excellent manoeuvrability for close air combat at low and medium altitudes.

The projected requirement was for 220 Light Combat Aircraft (200 Fighters, 20 trainers) to be inducted by 1994.

However, LCA could only achieve Initial Operational Clearance in December, 2013, as against the earlier scheduled date of December, 2005.

The Full Operational Clearance (FOC), which was scheduled to be completed by December, 2008, is now slated to be achieved by December this year although experts said even that could be delayed.

The CAG added that ADA’s decision regarding the advance building of two prototypes from Full-Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II to FSED Phase-I so as to utilise its savings on the grounds of accelerating the development process of LCA had failed to yield the desired results.

This, the report said, was because preponed prototypes were deficient in terms of critical onboard systems (Multi- Mode Radar, Self-Protection Jammer, Radar Warning Receiver) and led to ADA using the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft (meant for IAF use) towards flight testing/evaluation of these critical on board systems.

This was in contravention of the Cabinet approval (November, 2001) for phased development of the prototypes in FSED Phase-II after Technical Demonstrators had been built and flight tested for 210 hours,” CAG said.

Talking about lack of trainer aircraft, the audit body said that IAF was in the interim using an upgraded Full Mission Simulator (FMS) at ADA for pilot training, pending supply of an FMS by HAL at the LCA operating base.

It said that the long gestation period led to a change of weapon systems on LCA, necessitating the acquisition of new ones.

That led to design changes on the aircraft, coupled with delay in integrating R-73E missile with Multi-Mode Radar/ Helmet Mounted Display and Sight. Delayed identification (December, 2009) of Beyond Visual Range Missiles also contributed to the delays in achieving IOC/FOC by LCA,” the report said.


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## Etilla

sathya said:


> 4(2014-15)
> +4(2015-16)
> +6(2016-17)
> +6(2017-18)
> 
> this is seriously slow...
> 
> what happened to 35 air crafts in FOC configuration ?
> what happened to mk1.5
> 
> taking time & making a smooth transition to mk2 ?



Less than half that amount will actually be realised.

Its not slow its HAL.

Only 20 of the 40 ordered a decade ago by IAF in 2005 are in FOC config. 

What is Mk1.5?

Tejas Mk2 is yet to fully designed and is not a factor in massive delay in Tejas Mk1


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## Superboy

Is SP-2 on schedule for delivery next year? The first LCA squadron needs 18 SP planes to form.


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## The Great One

Superboy said:


> Is SP-2 on schedule for delivery next year? The first LCA squadron needs 18 SP planes to form.


If the 1st squadron is to be formed by 2017, then I am guessing we'll have at least 4 jets by next year.


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## sancho

The Great One said:


> If the 1st squadron is to be formed by 2017, then I am guessing we'll have at least 4 jets by next year.



The plan for now is to have both IOC versions this year and at least 2 FOC versions by the end of this FY, by march 2016.


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## The Great One

sancho said:


> The plan for now is to have both IOC versions this year and at least 2 FOC versions by the end of this FY, by march 2016.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/598072690491011072Per this, we don't get any FOC version anytime soon.


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## sancho

The Great One said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/598072690491011072Per this, we don't get any FOC version anytime soon.



That report is mainly about the induction time line and we know that only SP1 and SP2 are produced in IOC condition, so that's probably only a typo. FOC is still planned for the end of this year and SP3 and 4 should be the first produced in that standard.


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## The Great One

sancho said:


> That report is mainly about the induction time line and we know that only SP1 and SP2 are produced in IOC condition, so that's probably only a typo. FOC is still planned for the end of this year and SP3 and 4 should be the first produced in that standard.





sancho said:


> we know


I don't know. Please provide, link, tweet, quote etc. 
As for the supposed typo, I personally cant find any such typo worthy part in the tweet. Its a clear and concise recollection of DM's answer.


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## sancho

The Great One said:


> I don't know. Please provide, link, tweet, quote etc.
> As for the supposed typo, I personally cant find any such typo worthy part in the tweet. Its a clear and concise recollection of DM's answer.





> "We are sure that from SP-4 onwards (likely to be rolled out by HAL during the end of 2015), IAF will start getting the Tejas that matches all FOC requirements. Hence, the IAF will be ready with 36 FOC Tejas aircraft, instead of 20 as per the order," Subramaniam said



HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2] | Page 24

It's not that difficult to mix "F"OC with "I"OC don't you think?


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## The Great One

sancho said:


> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2] | Page 24
> 
> It's not that difficult to mix "F"OC with "I"OC don't you think?


Alright then. FOC from SP-4 onwards. 
This also clears any possibility of a typo. The contract states 20 IOC certified jets and so the DM and spokesperson are correct.


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## sancho

The Great One said:


> Alright then. FOC from SP-4 onwards.
> This also clears any possibility of a typo. The contract states 20 IOC certified jets and so the DM and spokesperson are correct.



Only if he refers to the original contract, but not if he refers to the current status of the order and the information in the Rajya Sabha actually should be about that, not things that are known for years. 
Anyway, all that doesn't mean anything until FOC is reached anyway, since that is the short term goal, the production of the fighters is another point and there is still enough room to mess things up for DRDO in the development and for HAL in the production.


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## Mujraparty

*CAG report overlooks Tejas's many triumphs*
*It fails to capture the risks and uncertainties that are associated with the development of all complex, high-technology platforms*

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), in its report for 2013-14, has examined "Issues relating to Design, Development, Manufacture and Induction of Light Combat Aircraft (Air Force)", the indigenous fighter now called theTejas Mark I.

Media reports have dwelt mainly on CAG's criticism of the LCA, such as the delays that led to the fighter - cleared in 1983 and intended to enter service in 1994 - eventually taking 30 years to obtain the initial operational clearance in December 2013. This is a landmark at which the fighter can be inducted into service. The CAG report says the final operational clearance is likely only by December 2015.

CAG says the LCA that has got initial operational clearance fell short of Air Staff Requirements - a key document that lays out the LCA's essential capabilities. With many of these capabilities still lacking, IAF could grant initial operational clearance only with 20 permanent waivers and 33 temporary concessions. These 33 shortcomings - which include increased aircraft weight, inadequate speed, reduced internal fuel capacity and the absence of an electronic warfare suite -- are to be made good before the final operational clearance is granted, or in the LCA Mark-II, expected by December 2018.

The CAG report nowhere recognises that, in fighter design anywhere, prototypes invariably go overweight while accommodating all the capabilities and weaponry that the users optimistically specify. Then, while paring down weight, some capabilities are diluted, in consultation with the air force. In this, the LCA has trodden a well-worn path.








CAG also finds the LCA's claimed indigenisation exaggerated. While the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the LCA project, has estimated indigenous content to be 61 per cent, CAG says it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January 2015. In arriving at this percentage, CAG does not differentiate between essential design-related and high technology aspects of the LCA and readily available products.

Criticising the slow pace of the LCA's entry into service, the report notes that Hindustan Aeronautics' manufacturing facilities can build just four fighters annually against an envisaged requirement of eight per year. CAG overlooks the fact that IAF has ordered only 20 LCAs with another 20 have been promised after the fighter obtains final operational clearance. Even so, HAL is enhancing its production to 16 LCAs per year, a decision that a future CAG report might comment on unfavourably if more IAF orders are not forthcoming.

The media, focused on criticism of the LCA, has overlooked the report's praise for having successfully developed a modern fighter aircraft. CAG "appreciate(s) the efforts made by ADA and its work centres in the indigenous development of the LCA which is comparable to many contemporary aircraft in the world…"

*Getting it right*
*Essentially, the CAG report is an auditor's review of a complex, high-technology platform development, which involves risks and uncertainties that are not captured in a simple balance sheet assessment of targets and budgets*. Any assessment of the LCA must start from the fundamental question: what was the objective of developing this fighter? All such programmes choose between two objectives: either utilising readily available technologies to build a fighter that could rapidly enter operational service, e.g. the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, which is a cleverly re-engineered MiG-21; or pursuing "technology leapfrog" in building a next-generation fighter, developing new, high-end technologies alongside the fighter they would go into. Obviously, this would take longer, and inevitable delays in the new technology areas would delay the project further.

*India's defence planners went fundamentally wrong in simultaneously attempting both things: building a fighter quickly to replace the retiring MiG-21s, while also attempting, as a "catch-up nation", to leapfrog technology ambitiously.*

From the outset, the LCA was based on fourth-generation (Gen-4) technologies. The first of these is its "unstable design", which makes it more agile and manoeuvrable than "stable" aircraft that are designed to hold the path they are flying on. Unstable design requires an on-board digital flight control computer that continuously trims the flight controls. A systems failure would be catastrophic, so the flight control system has four levels of backup, a sophisticated design challenge.

Second, the LCA is constructed largely of composite materials that are lighter than conventional metal alloys. This results in a lighter fighter that can carry more fuel and weapons. Third, the LCA has "microprocessor-based utilities", which means that computers control all its on-board systems like fuel, weapons and environment control. Fourth, the LCA has an all-glass cockpit, in which conventional dials are replaced by intelligent multi-function displays, and the pilot can fly, aim and operate weapons through a helmet-mounted display.

*"In our very first attempt, we went in for a frontline state-of-the-art aircraft. It was complete technological audacity to decide, 'We've not built a fighter before but we'll start with a Gen-4 design'. Astonishingly, we've managed this feat, albeit with delays"*, says an ADA official who works at the cutting edge of the LCA programme.

Given the conflict between a high-risk development path and the need to induct fighters quickly, the stage was set for confrontation between the user (IAF) and the developers (ADA, Hindustan Aeronautics et al). A former ADA chief says: *"The core challenge is managing the technology risk. The users demand more and fast; but you don't have the technology in your hand. This pits IAF versus the Defence Research & Development Organisation."*

Consequently, the LCA programme has seen confrontation, not cooperation, between IAF and ADA. *The CAG report notes that, as early as 1989, an LCA Review Committee had recommended the "need for a liaison group between Air HQ and ADA to ensure closer interaction between the design team and the user". Yet, "no such liaison group was formed and active user (Air HQ) participation in the LCA Programme started only after November 2006, which also impacted the LCA development."*

Even as IAF criticised ADA, its demands for additional capabilities in the LCA kept delaying the operational clearances. The CAG report points out that in December 2009, IAF asked for the R-73E air-to-air missile to be integrated with the LCA's radar and the pilots' helmet mounted displays. CAG also blames IAF for taking too long to identify a "beyond-visual-range missile" for the LCA.

*Unlike IAF, the navy adopted the naval LCA programme from the start, committing personnel and over Rs 900 crore from its budget. *Says former naval chief and distinguished fighter pilot Admiral Arun Prakash, "The navy knows the importance of indigenisation, having experienced how foreign aircraft like the Sea Harrier fighter and Sea King helicopter can be grounded for lack of support. Unlike IAF, we are not critically dependent upon the LCA, since we have the MiG-29K. But we will support it because it is an Indian fighter."

Taking on from the CAG report, *numerous media reports have suggested that the LCA's development cost has ballooned 25-fold*,* from the initially sanctioned Rs 560 crore to the current budget of Rs 14,047 crore. Both figures are incorrect*. This newspaper's detailed analysis of the LCA budget (February 22, 2011, "When a sword arm is worth it") quoted *ADA chief PS Subramanyam who clarified that Rs 560 crore was not the budget for the entire Tejas programme, but merely for "feasibility studies and project definition", which also included creation of the infrastructure needed for the new fighter.*

The infusion of funds for actual design, development and building of prototypes only began in 1993, with the funds allocated under the heading of "full scale engineering development".

*Equally misunderstood is the figure of Rs 14,047, which includes the cost of developing both the IAF and naval LCA, covering both the Mark I version as well as Mark II. The air force Tejas Mark I has so far cost Rs 7,490 crore, and is within its budget of Rs 7,965 crore.*

For that amount, tiny compared to the billions that get sucked into developing fighters abroad, ADA says it has developed not just the LCA (and built 16-17 flying prototypes) but also an aerospace ecosystem - DRDO laboratories, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre - that would allow India to build advanced fighters in the future.

Pushpinder Singh, noted aerospace expert and editor of Vayu magazine, points out that the LCA has overcome all its major technology challenges. What remains, he says, is to tackle the final problems of converting it into a product: issues like freezing specifications, evolving maintenance procedures and manuals, and the continuing challenge of establishing a fast-moving production line.

"Nothing prevents us from reconfiguring the technologies we have mastered through the LCA into indigenous Gen-5 aircraft like the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and the futuristic unmanned aerial combat vehicle. The LCA has been an invaluable springboard and the AMCA will galvanise 'Make in India' more than anything done so far", says Singh.

CAG report overlooks Tejas's many triumphs | Business Standard News

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## sancho

eowyn said:


> *CAG report overlooks Tejas's many triumphs*
> *It fails to capture the risks and uncertainties *that are associated with the development of all complex, high-technology platforms
> 
> The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), in its report for 2013-14, *has examined "Issues relating to Design, Development, Manufacture and Induction* of Light Combat Aircraft (Air Force)", the indigenous fighter now called theTejas Mark I.



When the first paragraph already counters the whole point of the article, then you know that it's written by Ajay Shukla. 

CAG reports are to highlight issues in projects, not to celebrate achievements. The less problems a project has, the less the CAG report has to complain, but it is about complains in the first place!

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## Badbadman

sancho said:


> When the first paragraph already counters the whole point of the article, then you know that it's written by Ajay Shukla.
> 
> CAG reports are to highlight issues in projects, not to celebrate achievements. The less problems a project has, the less the CAG report has to complain, but it is about complains in the first place!


True.
Glass is half empty.


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## Jayanta

Ranasikander said:


> You know some thing called typing error.i am sure as a kid , you dont.
> Haha , so you are not kid. Did your kindergarten teacher told you this?



LOL typing error...it happens once, twice...not all the time. Even after repeatedly asking you...you had no clue what was wrong...so bi... STFU and continue with your troll.


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## sancho

Badbadman said:


> True.
> Glass is half empty.



Well one can still be happy about the other half, but the question is, is that enough? There is no doubt about that the overall fighter project has some achievements too and the most important part is the fact that it adds much to the capability of the Indian aviation industry. But that alone doesn't give us a useful fighter as the IAF makes clear, that alone doesn't make the failed engine and radar developments gone somehow as CAG shows, nor does it reduce the huge ammount of mistakes and delays that DRDO is acountable for, which the MoD / GoI is making clear too.

So the glass is always as full, as you and your perspective shows it and CAG's perspective is simply not based on the achievements, but on the problems. We have politicians and DRDO officials for the celebrations in front of the media, it's good to have somebody on the other side too.

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## halupridol

sancho said:


> Well one can still be happy about the other half, but the question is, is that enough? There is no doubt about that the overall fighter project has some achievements too and the most important part is the fact that it adds much to the capability of the Indian aviation industry. But that alone doesn't give us a useful fighter as the IAF makes clear, that alone doesn't make the failed engine and radar developments gone somehow as CAG shows, nor does it reduce the huge ammount of mistakes and delays that DRDO is acountable for, which the MoD / GoI is making clear too.
> 
> So the glass is always as full, as you and your perspective shows it and CAG's perspective is simply not based on the achievements, but on the problems. We have politicians and DRDO officials for the celebrations in front of the media, it's good to have somebody on the other side too.


do u think FOC will be achieved in Dec'15?


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## sancho

halupridol said:


> do u think FOC will be achieved in Dec'15?



I hope so, but it depends on how the rest of the test and integration phase will go on this year. We have to get the parts from Chobham and have to add A2A capabilities to make the fighter useful. The EW issues that the CAG report pointed out, are a downer too, but could be handled easier (no internal RWR, external self protection pod).
I just wished that they would focus on finishing it and not distract themselfs with other things in between. It's amazing how they could go for NLCA tests or AMCA concepts, since 2013 after IOC2, when there is still so much to do to reach FOC by the initial date of Dec 2014.

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## saurav

There are talks of LCA-1 with AESA.. They will call it LCA-1P.


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## Manindra

saurav said:


> There are talks of LCA-1 with AESA.. They will call it LCA-1P.


First they give us with simple MMR.


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## GORKHALI

*HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar*


By Gulshan Luthra Published: May 2015









Bangalore. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme has been delayed indeed, but to make up for it, HAL is now working on *developing a new variant, LCA-I P, which will be equipped with an advanced AESA Radar and an electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite.*


The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017, two years from now. The AESA radar will be supplied by Israel’s ELTA Systems, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). ELTA had earlier supplied its AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) system for IAF’s IL-76 based Intelligence and surveillance aircraft, designated by IAF as AWACS (Airborne Warning & Control Systems) aircraft.

AESA, or Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, is the key component in the AWACS, enabling a 360 degree look-down-and-around capability to IAF for about 400 km. The aircraft is designed to guide combat fleets and ground assets in a war scenario. With no moving part, AESA is much faster in capability than earlier airborne radars in which rotodomes moved mechanically – and rather slowly – to scan different areas.

AESA in fact was always in the LCA programme, and there were discussions with some foreign companies as well as with the state-run BEL in developing it. Finally the choice has gone to ELTA, which in any case has been collaborating with BEL. LCA also has a sophisticated fly by wire system and glass cockpit. Once the programme gets going, HAL may manufacture some 200 aircraft for IAF and perhaps another 100 for the Navy.






AESA in the LCAs will obviously have a lower range, but it will be well integrated within the IAF network, and give a quantum technology jump to IAF’s combat capability. Notably, the 36 Rafales being acquired by IAF in the Government-to-Government deal will also have the AESA radar, developed by Thales.

IAF’s AWACS aircraft – three delivered, two on order – are already integrated with its combat, transport and land assets and also networked with aircraft of the Indian Navy.

HAL has in principle support from the Government, and is now working on the proposal with the IAF (Indian Air Force) in this regard. This variant will be developed on the existing LCA-MkI model, and will meet IAF’s requirements till the larger LCA Mk II is developed by 2021 with the more powerful GE 414 engine.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) T Suvarna Raju told _*India Strategic*_ in an interview that HAL shared the technology concerns of the user – IAF – as well as the urgency for production of the aircraft in view of the falling numbers of IAF combat squadrons due to obsolescence. The AESA and EW suite will make the new LCA variant more advanced than the supersonic MiG 21s in capability, even though it will be a subsonic aircraft compared to the ageing aircraft of the Soviet vintage.

A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.

*P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A or whatever.*



LCA-MkI, which achieved IOC-II (Initial Operational Capability, stage II) in January 2014 for acceptance by IAF as it is produced and tested, is yet to get the FOC (Final Operational Capability) but the focus now is on adding the EW package, originally planned for the LCA-MkII.

The aircraft will continue to have the same GE 404 engine however in this variant, but the lack of adequate power will be compensated by the warfare capability generated by the new sensors, with AESA providing a formidable force multiplication. This type of radar uses multiple frequencies to electronically scan several targets simultaneously.

The earlier radars used to have mechanically moving parts, whose output was painfully slow compared to the new generation electronic technology.

Notably, US companies Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have an established lead in the AESA systems while in Europe, Thales has just about achieved it for installation on Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft. In fact, AESA was a key requirement for India’s MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) competition, and the 36 Rafale jets being acquired from France should have both the AESA as well as the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system.

Israel is known for its excellence in electronic warfare systems, and ELTA should be able to meet IAF’s specific requirements.

Notably, IAF is not happy with the GE 404 engine, regarding it as underpowered for warfare. But only 40 aircraft are slated for production with this engine. For LCA-MkII aircraft, there is an agreement for 99 GE 414 engines already with the US engine maker. The production of that aircraft is due to begin from 2021.






*The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.

LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.*







There are two naval versions also with high landing gear as technology demonstrators. The naval version has to be much stronger than air force aircraft as every landing on the limited space of a carrier is like a crash landing, and the aircraft has to be stopped by one of the three onboard arrestor wires which latches on to a hook in the tail of the aircraft. If the attempt fails by chance, then the aircraft has to take off again, and that is why its engine(s) are kept on full power.

Mr Raju said that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was taking personal interest in the development of indigenous technologies and systems, including in the LCA, and HAL was working to speed up whatever it could do.

For one thing, it is proposing now to take full charge of the LCA development programme to become the single responsible agency. Right now, the design and development of the aircraft, engines, weapons package etc, are with DRDO and its Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

During a recent visit to HAL, this writer saw several young engineers, one of them trained in the UK. Like them, Mr Raju had joined HAL while young some 40 years back. He is as passionate now as he was perhaps then. He observed optimistically: We are taking steps in talent and technology to meet the timelines.

There is an emphasis on composite materials, for which Indian companies, both in public and private sectors, need to do a lot. Significantly, about half of the LCA is made of composite materials, which are lighter but stronger than the aircraft grade aluminum.

HAL has built seven LCA-MkI aircraft under LSP (Low Rate Series Production) and two under the SP (Series Production).

Significantly, LCA has passed several crucial tests in operating from tough summer and mountainous terrains as well as in firing missiles.

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## GURU DUTT

GORKHALI said:


> *HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar*
> 
> 
> By Gulshan Luthra Published: May 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bangalore. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme has been delayed indeed, but to make up for it, HAL is now working on *developing a new variant, LCA-I P, which will be equipped with an advanced AESA Radar and an electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite.*
> 
> 
> The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017, two years from now. The AESA radar will be supplied by Israel’s ELTA Systems, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). ELTA had earlier supplied its AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) system for IAF’s IL-76 based Intelligence and surveillance aircraft, designated by IAF as AWACS (Airborne Warning & Control Systems) aircraft.
> 
> AESA, or Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, is the key component in the AWACS, enabling a 360 degree look-down-and-around capability to IAF for about 400 km. The aircraft is designed to guide combat fleets and ground assets in a war scenario. With no moving part, AESA is much faster in capability than earlier airborne radars in which rotodomes moved mechanically – and rather slowly – to scan different areas.
> 
> AESA in fact was always in the LCA programme, and there were discussions with some foreign companies as well as with the state-run BEL in developing it. Finally the choice has gone to ELTA, which in any case has been collaborating with BEL. LCA also has a sophisticated fly by wire system and glass cockpit. Once the programme gets going, HAL may manufacture some 200 aircraft for IAF and perhaps another 100 for the Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA in the LCAs will obviously have a lower range, but it will be well integrated within the IAF network, and give a quantum technology jump to IAF’s combat capability. Notably, the 36 Rafales being acquired by IAF in the Government-to-Government deal will also have the AESA radar, developed by Thales.
> 
> IAF’s AWACS aircraft – three delivered, two on order – are already integrated with its combat, transport and land assets and also networked with aircraft of the Indian Navy.
> 
> HAL has in principle support from the Government, and is now working on the proposal with the IAF (Indian Air Force) in this regard. This variant will be developed on the existing LCA-MkI model, and will meet IAF’s requirements till the larger LCA Mk II is developed by 2021 with the more powerful GE 414 engine.
> 
> HAL Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) T Suvarna Raju told _*India Strategic*_ in an interview that HAL shared the technology concerns of the user – IAF – as well as the urgency for production of the aircraft in view of the falling numbers of IAF combat squadrons due to obsolescence. The AESA and EW suite will make the new LCA variant more advanced than the supersonic MiG 21s in capability, even though it will be a subsonic aircraft compared to the ageing aircraft of the Soviet vintage.
> 
> A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.
> 
> *P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A or whatever.*
> 
> 
> 
> LCA-MkI, which achieved IOC-II (Initial Operational Capability, stage II) in January 2014 for acceptance by IAF as it is produced and tested, is yet to get the FOC (Final Operational Capability) but the focus now is on adding the EW package, originally planned for the LCA-MkII.
> 
> The aircraft will continue to have the same GE 404 engine however in this variant, but the lack of adequate power will be compensated by the warfare capability generated by the new sensors, with AESA providing a formidable force multiplication. This type of radar uses multiple frequencies to electronically scan several targets simultaneously.
> 
> The earlier radars used to have mechanically moving parts, whose output was painfully slow compared to the new generation electronic technology.
> 
> Notably, US companies Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have an established lead in the AESA systems while in Europe, Thales has just about achieved it for installation on Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft. In fact, AESA was a key requirement for India’s MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) competition, and the 36 Rafale jets being acquired from France should have both the AESA as well as the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system.
> 
> Israel is known for its excellence in electronic warfare systems, and ELTA should be able to meet IAF’s specific requirements.
> 
> Notably, IAF is not happy with the GE 404 engine, regarding it as underpowered for warfare. But only 40 aircraft are slated for production with this engine. For LCA-MkII aircraft, there is an agreement for 99 GE 414 engines already with the US engine maker. The production of that aircraft is due to begin from 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.
> 
> The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.
> 
> LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two naval versions also with high landing gear as technology demonstrators. The naval version has to be much stronger than air force aircraft as every landing on the limited space of a carrier is like a crash landing, and the aircraft has to be stopped by one of the three onboard arrestor wires which latches on to a hook in the tail of the aircraft. If the attempt fails by chance, then the aircraft has to take off again, and that is why its engine(s) are kept on full power.
> 
> Mr Raju said that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was taking personal interest in the development of indigenous technologies and systems, including in the LCA, and HAL was working to speed up whatever it could do.
> 
> For one thing, it is proposing now to take full charge of the LCA development programme to become the single responsible agency. Right now, the design and development of the aircraft, engines, weapons package etc, are with DRDO and its Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).
> 
> During a recent visit to HAL, this writer saw several young engineers, one of them trained in the UK. Like them, Mr Raju had joined HAL while young some 40 years back. He is as passionate now as he was perhaps then. He observed optimistically: We are taking steps in talent and technology to meet the timelines.
> 
> There is an emphasis on composite materials, for which Indian companies, both in public and private sectors, need to do a lot. Significantly, about half of the LCA is made of composite materials, which are lighter but stronger than the aircraft grade aluminum.
> 
> HAL has built seven LCA-MkI aircraft under LSP (Low Rate Series Production) and two under the SP (Series Production).
> 
> Significantly, LCA has passed several crucial tests in operating from tough summer and mountainous terrains as well as in firing missiles.


its a very old news to me but cant understand why they made it publick so soon ?

as i said before there are two types of AESA radars one is israeli and the other is indian on russian design


----------



## Ankit Kumar 001

Hi
It's a good development. On the GE 404 being under powered can someone explain me, why it's slightly lower thrust varient is enough to power a heavier Gripen but an uprated one is not enough for a lighter Tejas?

And we need a second production line, a private one quickly to churn out improved mk1s at a greater rate.

Cheers
Regards


----------



## SRP

GORKHALI said:


> The AESA and EW suite will make the new LCA variant more advanced than the supersonic MiG 21s in capability, *even though it will be a subsonic aircraft *compared to the ageing aircraft of the Soviet vintage.



What loads of BS is this ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sathya

Absolutely Big News, why no further discussion ?

Why would AESA of mk1 will have less range ?

Definitely not radome size restriction 
Because of back end processor ? 
GE 404 power ?
Israel cap ?


----------



## The_Sidewinder

GORKHALI said:


> *HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar*
> 
> 
> By Gulshan Luthra Published: May 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bangalore. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme has been delayed indeed, but to make up for it, HAL is now working on *developing a new variant, LCA-I P, which will be equipped with an advanced AESA Radar and an electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite.*
> 
> 
> The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017, two years from now. The AESA radar will be supplied by Israel’s ELTA Systems, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). ELTA had earlier supplied its AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) system for IAF’s IL-76 based Intelligence and surveillance aircraft, designated by IAF as AWACS (Airborne Warning & Control Systems) aircraft.
> 
> AESA, or Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, is the key component in the AWACS, enabling a 360 degree look-down-and-around capability to IAF for about 400 km. The aircraft is designed to guide combat fleets and ground assets in a war scenario. With no moving part, AESA is much faster in capability than earlier airborne radars in which rotodomes moved mechanically – and rather slowly – to scan different areas.
> 
> AESA in fact was always in the LCA programme, and there were discussions with some foreign companies as well as with the state-run BEL in developing it. Finally the choice has gone to ELTA, which in any case has been collaborating with BEL. LCA also has a sophisticated fly by wire system and glass cockpit. Once the programme gets going, HAL may manufacture some 200 aircraft for IAF and perhaps another 100 for the Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA in the LCAs will obviously have a lower range, but it will be well integrated within the IAF network, and give a quantum technology jump to IAF’s combat capability. Notably, the 36 Rafales being acquired by IAF in the Government-to-Government deal will also have the AESA radar, developed by Thales.
> 
> IAF’s AWACS aircraft – three delivered, two on order – are already integrated with its combat, transport and land assets and also networked with aircraft of the Indian Navy.
> 
> HAL has in principle support from the Government, and is now working on the proposal with the IAF (Indian Air Force) in this regard. This variant will be developed on the existing LCA-MkI model, and will meet IAF’s requirements till the larger LCA Mk II is developed by 2021 with the more powerful GE 414 engine.
> 
> HAL Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) T Suvarna Raju told _*India Strategic*_ in an interview that HAL shared the technology concerns of the user – IAF – as well as the urgency for production of the aircraft in view of the falling numbers of IAF combat squadrons due to obsolescence. The AESA and EW suite will make the new LCA variant more advanced than the supersonic MiG 21s in capability, even though it will be a subsonic aircraft compared to the ageing aircraft of the Soviet vintage.
> 
> A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.
> 
> *P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A or whatever.*
> 
> 
> 
> LCA-MkI, which achieved IOC-II (Initial Operational Capability, stage II) in January 2014 for acceptance by IAF as it is produced and tested, is yet to get the FOC (Final Operational Capability) but the focus now is on adding the EW package, originally planned for the LCA-MkII.
> 
> The aircraft will continue to have the same GE 404 engine however in this variant, but the lack of adequate power will be compensated by the warfare capability generated by the new sensors, with AESA providing a formidable force multiplication. This type of radar uses multiple frequencies to electronically scan several targets simultaneously.
> 
> The earlier radars used to have mechanically moving parts, whose output was painfully slow compared to the new generation electronic technology.
> 
> Notably, US companies Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have an established lead in the AESA systems while in Europe, Thales has just about achieved it for installation on Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft. In fact, AESA was a key requirement for India’s MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) competition, and the 36 Rafale jets being acquired from France should have both the AESA as well as the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system.
> 
> Israel is known for its excellence in electronic warfare systems, and ELTA should be able to meet IAF’s specific requirements.
> 
> Notably, IAF is not happy with the GE 404 engine, regarding it as underpowered for warfare. But only 40 aircraft are slated for production with this engine. For LCA-MkII aircraft, there is an agreement for 99 GE 414 engines already with the US engine maker. The production of that aircraft is due to begin from 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.
> 
> The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.
> 
> LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two naval versions also with high landing gear as technology demonstrators. The naval version has to be much stronger than air force aircraft as every landing on the limited space of a carrier is like a crash landing, and the aircraft has to be stopped by one of the three onboard arrestor wires which latches on to a hook in the tail of the aircraft. If the attempt fails by chance, then the aircraft has to take off again, and that is why its engine(s) are kept on full power.
> 
> Mr Raju said that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was taking personal interest in the development of indigenous technologies and systems, including in the LCA, and HAL was working to speed up whatever it could do.
> 
> For one thing, it is proposing now to take full charge of the LCA development programme to become the single responsible agency. Right now, the design and development of the aircraft, engines, weapons package etc, are with DRDO and its Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).
> 
> During a recent visit to HAL, this writer saw several young engineers, one of them trained in the UK. Like them, Mr Raju had joined HAL while young some 40 years back. He is as passionate now as he was perhaps then. He observed optimistically: We are taking steps in talent and technology to meet the timelines.
> 
> There is an emphasis on composite materials, for which Indian companies, both in public and private sectors, need to do a lot. Significantly, about half of the LCA is made of composite materials, which are lighter but stronger than the aircraft grade aluminum.
> 
> HAL has built seven LCA-MkI aircraft under LSP (Low Rate Series Production) and two under the SP (Series Production).
> 
> Significantly, LCA has passed several crucial tests in operating from tough summer and mountainous terrains as well as in firing missiles.



What a news???


----------



## IND151

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar | idrw.org


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## sathya

What happened to sp 2 ?

It s really late, and I can't take in annoying @Superboy comments.

What's the reason for delay ?

Adding DSI ?


----------



## Sri

Got this link while surfing, Looks pretty cool if its done. With such performance boast over Derby, LCA will be able to handle all its opponents,
I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

PS read the last line is article.


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## Superboy

No SP-2 this year?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rockstarIN

More updates..!!

If reports are to be believed,* Tejas is undergoing integration tests for the I-Derby ER missile.*

*I-Derby ER is the extended range version of the I-Derby active radar-guided BVR air-to-air missile from RAFAEL*. It is equipped with a new seeker that employs an advanced solid-state Software Defined Radar (SDR), from the Tamir missile of the Iron Dome system. It is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases* the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km*, significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.

*This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance and operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system*. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone. The I-Derby ER has the ability to lock onto targets before launch (LOBL) and after launch (LOAL), thus enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.

*A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims*.

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## migflug

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago >>

* The good news. No window for Gripen exists any more. Discussions on long term development related partnership underway.
* Cobham has not yet delivered either the bolt on IFR pod or the quartz radome for the HAL Tejas program.
* HAL Tejas MK 1.5, 1A is definitely on the cards with improved defensive aids and other product improvement features.
* Will be produced in the 2018-22 time frame as the MK-II gets ready.
* December 2015 FOC for the HAL Tejas is shaky at best if the new radome and IFR capability are kept as 'must haves


----------



## Water Car Engineer

> * Cobham has not yet delivered either the bolt on IFR pod or the quartz radome for the HAL Tejas program.



Wtf?! Why? It's been delayed for a long time!


----------



## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> Wtf?! Why? It's been delayed for a long time!



When our R&D fails, we slam them. When cobham fails still we got to blame ourselves ..


----------



## [Bregs]

Arey bhai ek basic squardon hi induct kar lo without aesa radar, that can be done in next phase. bahut kirkari karwa di es aircraft ne


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Carpet bombing: Tejas to demonstrate fire power ahead of FOC*


The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is all set undertake critical test flights carrying an array of missiles and bombs to complete its scheduled weapon trials. Top sources with the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to this Correspondent that the integration of Russian-made Close Combat Missile (CCM) R-73 has been completed.







The ground integration of the Israeli-made CMM Python-5 too has been completed ahead of the flight trials. The Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile Derby has also been integrated on to the aircraft. Tejas can carry two CCMs with a range of 15 km at the extreme end pods. These missiles can home on to the enemy aircraft based on their heat signature.

The Derby (two missiles) is being integrated on the mid-board-pods of Tejas and they have a range varying between 80 and 100 km. The home-grown fighter carries the laser-guided bomb (LGB) Griffin, which has a range of 5-6 km. Tejas will also carry LGB Paveway, which according to sources, has already demonstrated its capabilities with an accuracy of 1 meter. "These missiles have demonstrated their capabilities to strike with precision during day and night," says an official.

*BVR missiles to be tested in July*

The laser-designator pod also has been integrated on to the aircraft. "Tejas can carry drop tanks with 1200-litre and 800-725-litre capacity. The R-73 has completed flight trials in Goa, Jaisalmer and Jamnagar over 10 times. The LGB has been tested for six times now," the official said.

The BVR testes scheduled to be held in May has now been fixed for July at forward bases. "The CCMs and BVRs used on Tejas are capable of SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability). In a war scenario, the pilot can increase the kill probability by opting for firing both CCMs, or both BVRs together," the official added. The integration of Russian-made gun for Tejas Gsh-23 has been completed. The gun has been already ground tested at a facility in Nasik.






*FOC may spill over to March 2016?*

When asked whether Tejas would skip the December 2015 deadline for Final Operational Clearance (FOC), the top MoD official said: "There are still some passing clouds hanging around. But the teams from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are confident of beating the deadline."

However, another official told this Correspondent that the programme might skip the December deadline by maximum three months. "May be it will spill over to the last quarter of this FY. The FOC will be in by March 2016," he said.

*Refueling probe, nose cone radome awaited*

To complete the FOC points, the air-to-air refueling probe from Cobham hasn't arrived yet. The nose cone quartz radome too is being awaited. There are already some rumours floating around in the corridors of HAL and ADA over the delay in accessing these pending foreign systems. A Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official says that they are hopeful of thrashing the issue.

"Definitely there are concerns. But, we are hoping to get clarity by July. Hopefully, we should have access to all hardware within a month. We don't see any more technology challenges after the integration of these pending items," says the senior DRDO official.

ADA says that almost 75 per cent of work related to FOC has been completed. The siblings of Tejas have completed 2971 flights so far logging around 1909 hours, at the time this piece went live on the web.

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## SRP

*Ground test of Russian Gsh-23 on Tejas completed at Nasik facility*







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/615409021470683140

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## rockstarIN

So Far

-R73 - fully integrated, tested.
-LGB Griffin - Fully integrated, tested.
-LGB Payway - Fully integrated, tested.
-Laser pod - integrated.

-Gsh23(Gun) - integrated,weapon trail in July
-Python 5 - integrated , weapon trail in July
-Derby BVR - Integrated weapon trail in July

-refuel probe and radome yet toe receive from cobham, expected in July-August

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SRP

Guys you can ask your queries about Tejas Programme today on Tarmak007 in short time. 

Tejas boss and ADA programme Director P S Subramanyam today. Time 7 pm (IST) 

Tarmak007 | Facebook


----------



## Superboy

So how many Tejas SP so far? 1?


----------



## 21 Dec 2012

Superboy said:


> So how many Tejas SP so far? 1?


Yes, with SP-2 by end of this year and SP-3 and SP-4 by March next year.

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## Superboy

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Yes, with SP-2 by end of this year and SP-3 and SP-4 by March next year.




I'm not going to count any chicks before they hatch. So far 1 then.


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## 21 Dec 2012

Superboy said:


> I'm not going to count any chicks before they hatch. So far 1 then.


That's their schedule. We know how most of their schedules end up .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sathya

Superboy said:


> So how many Tejas SP so far? 1?




Thanks @Superboy for finally updating that sp1 entered service..

Still many are not aware..


----------



## Superboy

sathya said:


> Thanks @Superboy for finally updating that sp1 entered service..
> 
> Still many are not aware..




SP-1 is not in service.


----------



## Agent_47

Superboy said:


> SP-1 is not in service.


You forget to mention lack of DSI.

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## Superboy

Agent_47 said:


> You forget to mention lack of DSI.




and that too


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## Irfan Baloch

just waiting for my computer to get fixed . I hope to create and upload a more refined and better model of Tejas.
this is my tribute. sorry its not perfect. a lot of effort went there.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Perpendicular

Irfan Baloch said:


> just waiting for my computer to get fixed . I hope to create and upload a more refined and better model of Tejas.
> this is my tribute. sorry its not perfect. a lot of effort went there.


Looks more like Naval LCA


----------



## aftab_s81

Hi, 
I am new to Tejas forum.
Please let me know how many of these birds are in service?


----------



## HariPrasad

aftab_s81 said:


> Hi,
> I am new to Tejas forum.
> Please let me know how many of these birds are in service?



2 Protype variants, 7 limited series production, 2 naval variant , may be couple of trainers and 1 production variant are produced. One A/C handed over to Airforce for evaluation. The plane is not in service till date.


----------



## aftab_s81

HariPrasad said:


> 2 Protype variants, 7 limited series production, 2 naval variant , may be couple of trainers and 1 production variant are produced. One A/C handed over to Airforce for evaluation. The plane is not in service till date.



I have also read somewhere in this forum that IAF is rather looking at Gripen for the same role (replacing Mig21s), is that true?


----------



## IND151

Broadsword: Outgoing Tejas chief says Mark II will fly in three years, enter IAF service in six



aftab_s81 said:


> I have also read somewhere in this forum that IAF is rather looking at Gripen for the same role (replacing Mig21s), is that true?



IAF and IN have ordered more than 120 LCAs in total till now.


----------



## aftab_s81

So when can we see an operational squadron ?



IND151 said:


> Broadsword: Outgoing Tejas chief says Mark II will fly in three years, enter IAF service in six
> 
> 
> 
> IAF and IN have ordered more than 120 LCAs in total till now.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

HariPrasad said:


> 2 Protype variants, 7 limited series production, 2 naval variant , may be couple of trainers and 1 production variant are produced. One A/C handed over to Airforce for evaluation. The plane is not in service till date.


the Naval variant is very ambitious the challenges are many fold and magnified compared to ground version. I respect the people who have taken up that task.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## IND151

aftab_s81 said:


> So when can we see an operational squadron ?



Very soon


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Perpendicular said:


> Looks more like Naval LCA


it was my first attempt and spent many hours, used a model component of an old game. which is still living on due to mods and updates. there are some exceptional models on the web. the model is moderately familiar and lacks polish although I spent a lot of time but reached my limit due to limited tools available and tricks.
but I just wanted to make an entry for our sub continent

Reactions: Like Like:
6


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## HariPrasad

Irfan Baloch said:


> the Naval variant is very ambitious the challenges are many fold and magnified compared to ground version. I respect the people who have taken up that task.



yes,

In a test at INS Hansa, We witnessed some pleasant surprise in terms of almost double climb rate than expected. This has given us a hope that even LCA MK1 is career compatible. Thank for your display of respect.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Superboy

aftab_s81 said:


> Hi,
> I am new to Tejas forum.
> Please let me know how many of these birds are in service?




0 in service. 1 serial production plane built. SP-1. Need 17 more serial production planes to form the first squadron.

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## SRP

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/616908234893320192

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5


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## IND151

Tejas MK-II first flight in 2018: Outgoing ADE Chief | idrw.org


----------



## Hindustani78

Updated: July 3, 2015 16:50 IST





New ADA chief C.D.Balaji to steer LCA programme - The Hindu

Commodore C.D.Balaji (Retd), Outstanding Scientist, on Friday took charge as the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Programme Director of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), according to an official announcement.

ADA, based in Bengaluru, is the premier multi-agency body spearheading the development of combat aircraft for the Air Force and the Navy - among them the LCA and the proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft AMCA.

Prior to his elevation, Cmde Balaji was Project Director of the LCA’s naval version. He succeeds P.S. Subramanyam, Distinguished Scientist, who superannuated on June 30.

Cmde Balaji holds a BE in Mechanical Engineering and a Masters degree in Aerospace Engineering from the Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru. Commissioned into the Indian Navy's engineering branch in September 1978, Cmde Balaji has specialised in the Naval Aviation Arm. He has served as Air Engineer Officer of INAS 310 (Alize aircraft) for about 3 years embarking the Aircraft Carrier Vikrant.

He joined ADA on deputation in 2002 to work on the development of a naval version of the light fighter. In December 2006, he left the Navy and fully moved to ADA.

*The plane's first prototype, LCA (NP1), made its historic maiden flight on April 27, 2012, followed by the first crucial ski jump launch on December 20, 2014. He is credited with playing a key role in conceiving and building the Air Force trainer prototypes and the Shore-Based Test Facility (SBTF)* at Dabolim naval station in Goa. The SBTF is built to replicate an aircraft carrier and provides the test platform equipped with a ski jump for take-off and arresting gear to stop the aircraft while landing.

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## Superboy

IND151 said:


> Tejas MK-II first flight in 2018: Outgoing ADE Chief | idrw.org




Doubt it. I predict 2020 or after.

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## Manindra



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## sathya

Superboy said:


> Doubt it. I predict 2020 or after.




I see a great improvement in superboy ' s knowledge in tejas..​


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## #hydra#

sathya said:


> I see a great improvement in superboy ' s knowledge in tejas..​


2020 is more realistic timeline for tejas mk2


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## NKVD

#hydra# said:


> 2020 is more realistic timeline for tejas mk2


Yes for operational deployment 
LCA MK2 is direct production aircraft with slightly Upgraded Design.


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## monitor




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## jung41

Are yar yeh TEJAS to birbal ki kichri ho gaya hai .........pata nahi kab pakeka . Lagta hai jab china 7th gen fighter baneyega tab tejas aayega


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## NKVD

jung41 said:


> Are yar yeh TEJAS to birbal ki kichri ho gaya hai .........pata nahi kab pakeka . Lagta hai jab china 7th gen fighter baneyega tab tejas aayega


This not your chat session it's defence forum if you have nothing substantial to add them STFU

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## jung41

NKVD said:


> This not your chat session it's defence forum if have nothing substantial to add them STFU


Is there any rule like that in this defence forum bother????


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## IND151

Superboy said:


> Doubt it. I predict 2020 or after.



I think Mk II will make first flight in 2018.

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## Superboy

IND151 said:


> I think Mk II will make first flight in 2018.




It's not even on the design board. I predict 2025 first flight


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## Perpendicular

Superboy said:


> It's not even on the design board. I predict 2025 first flight


F414 will be in India by september 2015, and work should start building the jet around engine probably this year itself. 
Am looking at 2018 or early 2019 a pretty achievable time frame.

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## IND151

Perpendicular said:


> F414 will be in India by september 2015, and work should start building the jet around engine probably this year itself.
> Am looking at 2018 or early 2019 a pretty achievable time frame.



Thanks for Info

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## sudhir007

bharatkarnad.com/2015/07/05/great-developments-on-the-tejas-front-duplicate-them-for-fmbt/

Leadership has often been the difference between a successful and failed indigenous armament or weapons development project to which national prestige is committed. After the departure of Dr Kurt Tank from the HF-24 supersonic fighter project and the sidelining of Dr Raj Mahindra when the Mk-II of this aircraft was killed by IAF in order to procure the Anglo-French Jaguar low level strike aircraft, which mission the Marut Mk-II would have done far better. It initiated the process of IAF going over lock and stock and barrel to importing combat aircraft to the detriment of the security of the country and the national interest, a direction a seemingly unconcerned Indian govt actively encouraged — with defence minister Jagjivan Ram in the post-Emergency Janata govt allegedly pocketing rich commissions as the Maneka Gandhi edited magazine’Surya’ then claimed.

For the first time now Tejas will have two tested and proven persons at the wheel, with the Indian govt finally doing the right thing for a change with respect to the LCA. It has appointed Commodore CD Balaji, fresh from his success spearheading the development of the naval variant of Tejas as chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. It was Balaji who ensured, for instance, that the navalised Tejas is a far more advanced aircraft than its air force sibling. Levcons (leading edge vortex controllers) have been configured into its airframe, making it a far more maneuverable warplane able, for instance, to pull high angles of attack at low speeds. Balaji’s hands-on control, commitment, and ability to eliminate/remove systemic and procedural obstacles are by now the stuff of legend. Senior US Navy officers whom I met in Washington some years back, who were part of the consultancy team Pentagon approved to liaise with the Balaji project, were full of praise for the streamlined manner in which everything worked, something they confessed they did did not expect. The USN consultants were hired to advice on such things as the strengthening of the aircraft’s fuselage, the exact placement of the arrester hook, the choice of an appropriate jet engine with the needed power-rating, etc.

In parallel with Balaji taking over ADA, Commodore Jaydeep Maolankar has assumed command of the National Flight Test Centre, also in Bangalore, replacing Air Commodore Muthanna, who was in place since 2011. NFTC with its team of test pilots is tasked with testing aircraft for their air worthiness and ability to do combat maneuvers they are designed for. Mavlankar, an MS in aerospace engineering from IISc, like Balaji at ADA, is the right fit — the proverbial round peg in a round hole (unlike the history of GOI usually appointing the wrong persons to lead critically significant high-technology projects and then wondering why they veer off into failure) So, the designer agency and testing unit will be in sync and Tejas can now expect to begin rolling fast to cross certification hurdles.

The important thing to note is that both Balaji and Maolankar are senior naval officers, and typify the navy’s quite commendable levels of commitment and eagerness to validate and operate indigenous military hardware, in this case, combat aircraft. It indicates defmin Manohar Parrikar’s recognition about the importance of getting the Tejas inducted into operational squadrons in the navy and air force fast. It is perhaps the first tremendously right and potent set of appointments he has made. It is now for him to ensure Messrs Balaji and Maolankar are not tripped up by the usual villains lurking in the corners — mostly in IAF and not least in his own ministry of defence and its department of defence production. He needs in particular roughly to drag IAF by the ear, if necessary, so to say, to appreciating and prioritising the Tejas in their scheme of things — rather than have this service clamour ceaselessly for Rafale and similar foreign aircraft.

This should also signal to the army that it is wrong to so casually torpedo the Future Main Battle Tank design, as follow-on, to the Arjuna MBT that beat the Russian T-90 hollow in field trials in all respects. And Parrikar should squelch at the earliest any move by army to tilt towards the Russian Armata tank displayed at the recent Red Square parade in Moscow to mark the 70th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. He should rescind army’s RFPs, and tell the COAS and his cohort that the army will have the DRDO-designed FMBT perhaps with its production shared half-and-half between DPSUs and a private sector combine in a competitive set up, both to judge the effectiveness/efficiency of public and private sector manufacturing skills and processes, and to get the best product out to the army, because it definitely will not have an imported tank. If Parrikar can summon that kind of conviction, MOD/DDP will fall in line, pronto.

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## IND151

Broadsword: First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September


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## Superboy

IND151 said:


> Broadsword: First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September




That's America's engine. That's not your engine. Without engine, jet is useless. That's why JF-17 will use indigenous WS-13 engine. No engine, rely on foreigners for spare parts and vulnerable to sanction.


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## P.K.

Superboy said:


> Without engine, jet is useless


Priceless Quote


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## GURU DUTT

P.K. said:


> Priceless Quote


cause it comes from a hyper active thundering typhoons super high sky rocketing IQ holder

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## SRP

Superboy said:


> That's America's engine. That's not your engine. Without engine, jet is useless. That's why JF-17 will use indigenous WS-13 engine. No engine, rely on foreigners for spare parts and vulnerable to sanction.



We are awaiting for DSI tech from super duper hyper engineers of communist country.


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## IND151

Superboy said:


> That's America's engine. That's not your engine. Without engine, jet is useless. That's why JF-17 will use indigenous WS-13 engine. No engine, rely on foreigners for spare parts and vulnerable to sanction.



JF 17 is Pakistani platform (result of JV and inducted by PAF) and WS 13 is Chinese Engine.

Now take a look at what you have posted.

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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

P.K. said:


> Priceless Quote



He is right, a jet only need *DSI* to fly, every thing else is useless.


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## Superboy

IND151 said:


> JF 17 is Pakistani platform (result of JV and inducted by PAF) and WS 13 is Chinese Engine.
> 
> Now take a look at what you have posted.




Pakistan has intellectual rights to WS-13 since WS-13 is engine of JF-17 and JF-17 is joint venture.


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## Heinz Guderian

SRP said:


> We are awaiting for DSI tech from super duper hyper engineers of communist country.



Actually, all IPRs of JF-17 Pakistan holds. They building all things ingeniously,


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## migflug

*Tejas Mark II – Aeronautical Development Agency needs to have realistic goals*
SOURCE: NITICENTRAL







I read two articles with great interest – “First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September” and “From Tejas to AMCA” – on July 6, both by Ajai Shukla of the Business Standard. As a retired Colonel of Indian Army, Shukla speaks with a certainty that comes from experience and in these articles he rails against “self-appointed patriots who see no irony in their advocacy of expensive foreign weaponry”. I suppose Shukla means this description to include Indian Air Force Ex-Chiefs of Air Staff Fali Major and PV Naik who certainly are advocating buying foreign combat aircraft. Let us be realistic, every combat aircraft ever flown by the IAF so far was foreign made i.e. Russian or French. So it is hypocrisy for Shukla to deride foreign weaponry when India has been relying on foreign weaponry for the last 67 years.

In the first article Shukla essentially argues that modifying the Tejas to create the Mark II using the GE-414 will be easy as “F-414 is no larger than the F-404?. Keep in mind that the Tejas was designed to use the F-404 engine except the weight and drag of the Tejas is too high and so it appears underpowered. The Gripen which was considered by the IAF uses the same F-404 engine as the Tejas except the weight and drag of the Gripen was properly optimised. It may be true that with another 3 years of redesign of the Tejas to use the more powerful F-414 engine will yield a good cheap Tejas Mark II combat aircraft but until it is actually tested no one will know for sure, so can the IAF really wait another 3 years on just the promise that Tejas Mark II will work properly?

Regarding the AMCA Shukla argues that it will be a success because the IAF is part of the project from day one, and that once clearance is obtained for spending $4 Billion and design work is started, then in approximately 15 years time, the AMCA will be reality, even though so far the engine which will power the AMCA has not been decided on.

There is absolutely no harm in having an optimistic vision of the future but what about the present? War is not like a cricket match, it carries real consequences. So, if India were in a war with Pakistan or China in a few years it is not possible to tell them that India is not ready yet, please attack again in a few years time. The depletion in numbers in the IAF is happening right now, and maybe increasing production of Su-30MKI will buy some time, but it will not buy the 3 more years to design the Tejas Mark II plus another 3 years to build and induct sufficient number of Tejas Mark II.

For the IAF pilots it is a matter of life and death, for the citizens of India it is a matter of protecting your sovereignty. The minimum role of the commentator is simply to be realistic and it does seem that relying on the Tejas Mark II is not being realistic, so India definitely needs to reduce the risk by importing foreign combat aircraft, at least until you have a Tejas Mark II that really works well and that you know you can manufacture in large numbers. Regarding the AMCA, of course India needs to work on the design and prototyping anyway, but India still has to consider other options as well, i.e. wait until the AMCA is actually working and then you can rely on it. To put it another way, of course India should spend the money to design the Tejas Mark II and also the AMCA, but just don’t rely on them until you have fully functioning prototypes with initial operational clearance (IOC). Try not to repeat the ongoing misery of the IAF for the last 5 years waiting for the Tejas to get IOC.

The biggest problem that India has is that every project is funded only when the politicians think there is a practical need for it. For example this design and prototype of Tejas Mark II should have been completed 10 years ago along with the initial prototype of Tejas, because the F-414 engine is from the same family as the F-404 engine and has been in existence for 20 years now. Yes, I am aware that it sounds like hindsight, but the fact is that India should have designed and prototyped Tejas and Tejas Mark II at the same time so that you could have selected whichever version works better i.e. find the problems earlier so you can make the choices earlier. Indeed any engineer in any branch of engineering will tell you that the best way to fully understand a design is to to make two or more versions and compare them.

That is why I really believe that India should not finalise the design for the AMCA right away.

Instead of shooting for the goal of the stealth capable 5th generation AMCA with a pair of 110 kN engines (which India does not have right now anyway) to be built in the next 15 years, India needs to aim for an intermediate goal to be delivered in 5 years. The intermediate goal will be a much simpler twin-engine combat plane without stealth in two configurations at the same time i.e. a first small configuration using a pair of 79 kN F-404 engines and a second slightly larger configuration using a pair of 98 kN F-414 engines. Then you can compare the two configurations and learn how to scale the airframe in size based on the power of the engines. Indeed, these configurations are test beds for the final design which will be the largest in size and complexity. Also you can practice applying stealth technology on the small and medium planes to begin with. Once India has successfully done that, then India is ready for the next design/prototype step i.e to get the best configuration using the more powerful 110 kN engines which hopefully by that time India will have obtained from USA or Europe.

In other words the 5th generation AMCA project will be much easier to implement if you take it in steps. In addition the smaller twin-engine combat plane designs which were developed as intermediate goal can be adapted as combat aircraft in lesser roles. If India takes the project in steps, the chance of success is much higher. But until India is successful in doing this, you obviously also have to keep buying enough foreign combat planes to keep the IAF fully operational

*Manohar Parrikar reviews LCA-Tejas progress*
Published July 9, 2015
SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE






Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Wednesday reviewed the performance of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). He is learnt to have taken a stock of the progress made on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, besides other issues.

This assumes importance as he has consistently advocated the production of LCAs to supplement the Rafale fighter jets. This was Parrikar’s third meeting with HAL since he took over as Defence Minister. A capability augmentation review of HAL in light of IAF’s rotary wing requirements as well as in line with the government’s ‘Make In India’ initiative is learnt to have taken place during the meeting. 

“The team led by HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju made a presentation to the Defence Minister. LCA prominently figured in the discussion. A capability assessment of HAL was done in light of IAF requirements which has been banking upon the LCA programme as an addition to the Rafale fighter jets. Other projects such as Light Combat Helicopter, Light Utility Helicopter were also discussed,” a source from the ministry said. In April, PM Narendra Modi had announced plans to buy 36 Rafale jets from France, instead of earlier plans to acquire 126 such aircraft. Parrikar has said the gap can be met with LCA which fits the government’s Make in India initiative.


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## SRP

Heinz Guderian said:


> Actually, all IPRs of JF-17 Pakistan holds. They building all things ingeniously,



IS that SO ?


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## Heinz Guderian

SRP said:


> IS that SO ?


Obviously.


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## IND151

Manohar Parrikar reviews LCA-Tejas progress | idrw.org



Superboy said:


> Pakistan has intellectual rights to WS-13 since WS-13 is engine of JF-17 and JF-17 is joint venture.



@sancho @MilSpec @XiNiX @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye


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## sudhir007



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## Perpendicular

India expects first engines for Tejas Mk 2 to arrive by year-end - IHS Jane's 360
110 LCA MKII + 40 LCA ordered by Airforce
40 LCA MKII for Navy
600 units of F414 engines


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## [Bregs]

Ordering engines for mark 2 and not inducted even a single mark 1


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## Perpendicular

[Bregs] said:


> Ordering engines for mark 2 and not inducted even a single mark 1


By the time MKII goes for production, all 40 MK I 's should be with IAF. 
That's what they saying anyway.

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## itachiii

[Bregs] said:


> Ordering engines for mark 2 and not inducted even a single mark 1



IAF gets first Tejas light combat aircraft - Livemint

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## [Bregs]

itachiii said:


> IAF gets first Tejas light combat aircraft - Livemint



what aftere that , final clearance getting delayed beyond any reasonable reasoning


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## itachiii

[Bregs] said:


> what aftere that , final clearance getting delayed beyond any reasonable reasoning



bhai, initial 20 tejas aircraft are to be delivered in IOC standards, so it got nothing to do with FOC. secondly it is not HAL/DRDOs fault for delaying the FOC deadline.. but due to the delay by UK firm cobham in delivering the quartz radome and air to air refuelling probe... these will be delivered by the end of july and in all possibilities the plane will achieve its FOC by march 2016.

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## [Bregs]

itachiii said:


> bhai, initial 20 tejas aircraft are to be delivered in IOC standards, so it got nothing to do with FOC. secondly it is not HAL/DRDOs fault for delaying the FOC deadline.. but due to the delay by UK firm cobham in delivering the quartz radome and air to air refuelling probe... these will be delivered by the end of july and in all possibilities the plane will achieve its FOC by march 2016.




i understand your point but still all these delays have accumulated to make it a very embarrassing lingering project although end product will be a very good fighter

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

[Bregs] said:


> i understand your point but still all these delays have accumulated to make it a very embarrassing lingering project although end product will be a very good fighter



embarrassing? every combat project has taken similar time i.e. 20-25 years. Take pride dude that we have closed the 2 generations gap and now have a very capable fighter. you talk like typical indian dad dekho sharma ji ka ladka ne ye kiya wo kiya ...... Dont get blinded by our neighbours pride which is a 3rd generation framework with alleged modern(?) avionics.


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## IND151

Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org

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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org


dair se aaye per durust aaye 

HAL is already over burdenned with so many projects .... Plan B in action 



Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> embarrassing? every combat project has taken similar time i.e. 20-25 years. Take pride dude that we have closed the 2 generations gap and now have a very capable fighter. you talk like typical indian dad dekho sharma ji ka ladka ne ye kiya wo kiya ...... Dont get blinded by our neighbours pride which is a 3rd generation framework with alleged modern(?) avionics.


parosi ki merc dekh ke kya koi apni maruti ko fenk deta hai kya ?


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## IND151

GURU DUTT said:


> dair se aaye per durust aaye
> 
> HAL is already over burdenned with so many projects .... Plan B in action
> 
> 
> parosi ki merc dekh ke kya koi apni maruti ko fenk deta hai kya ?



The LCA will be success, no doubt.

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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> The LCA will be success, no doubt.


it is a sucsess ...... but this current development is cause DM wants HAL to focus more on AMCA

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## IND151

GURU DUTT said:


> it is a sucsess ...... but this current development is cause DM wants HAL to focus more on AMCA



I hope AMCA also becomes success.



itachiii said:


> IAF gets first Tejas light combat aircraft - Livemint



Thanks for Info

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## Perpendicular

Its big news. Whoever doubted 2018 2020 timeline, think again if this is done. 


IND151 said:


> Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org


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## [Bregs]

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> embarrassing? every combat project has taken similar time i.e. 20-25 years. Take pride dude that we have closed the 2 generations gap and now have a very capable fighter. you talk like typical indian dad dekho sharma ji ka ladka ne ye kiya wo kiya ...... Dont get blinded by our neighbours pride which is a 3rd generation framework with alleged modern(?) avionics.




every one has right to give his opinion now don't teach me that your opinion or that of others like you is the only relevant reasoning and all others are are useless


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

[Bregs] said:


> every one has right to give his opinion now don't teach me that your opinion or that of others like you is the only relevant reasoning and all others are are useless



pathetic opinion you have SIR!  

may be do some research before providing troll opinions?


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## [Bregs]

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> pathetic opinion you have SIR!
> 
> may be do some research before providing troll opinions?




Quiet fair if you do not agree with my constructive criticism in delay of tejas but neither me nor any one else shall force his opinion on other


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

[Bregs] said:


> Quiet fair if you do not agree with my *constructive criticism *in delay of tejas but neither me nor any one else shall force his opinion on other

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## [Bregs]

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>




but here is very heartening and positive news regarding Tejas today,

Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org

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## I M Sikander

[Bregs] said:


> but here is very heartening and positive news regarding Tejas today,
> 
> Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org


Isnt it an official recognition of the incompetency of HAL and ADA in satisfying iaf.


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## I M Sikander

[Bregs] said:


> what aftere that , final clearance getting delayed beyond any reasonable reasoning


FOC has already been deffered from dec this year to next year. Dont get surprise if they again come up with a new date. They are doing it since ages. HAL and ADA are quite expert in doing so.


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## [Bregs]

Ranasikander said:


> Isnt it an official recognition of the incompetency of HAL and ADA in satisfying iaf.




They are not incompetent as such but Govt polices in past have been to give such projects to select few Govt cos which was more then there capacity to handle all projects in time. only and hence the delay. now with entry of private sector which have no bottle necks like govt cos. Hence things will move at relatively quick pace



Ranasikander said:


> FOC has already been deffered from dec this year to next year. Dont get surprise if they again come up with a new date. They are doing it since ages. HAL and ADA are quite expert in doing so.




This has been sorted now delays is because of couple of components which will be supplied by year end and formal prodction will start early next year after final clearance by IAF by march 2016


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## I M Sikander

IND151 said:


> I think Mk II will make first flight in 2018.


We are also hearing such dead lines for lca mk1 since our child hood. Keeping in view the pathetic performance of hal and ada in meeting the previous dead lines.
We are not so hope full for tall claims regarding mk11 early completion.


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## sathya

Ranasikander said:


> FOC has already been deffered from dec this year to next year. Dont get surprise if they again come up with a new date. They are doing it since ages. HAL and ADA are quite expert in doing so.





Have you noticed the difference ?

Now it s deferred only in months..


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## I M Sikander

sathya said:


> Have you noticed the difference ?
> 
> Now it s deferred only in months..


They might do it again and again. No one stopped them in past, no one will stop them in future also.


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## Hindustani78

Ranasikander said:


> Isnt it an official recognition of the incompetency of HAL and ADA in satisfying iaf.



A defence ministry spokesperson said he was not in a position to immediately comment. Officials at DRDO were not available for comment. HAL officials said they were unaware of the discussions. 

Another proposal doing the rounds suggests the setting up of a special purpose vehicle for the project in which DRDO and HAL, the entities now responsible for the LCA, could be partners along with the private sector. A foreign collaborator could also be a part of this.
*"An improved version of the fighter that meets air force requirements would also have a good export potential. The numbers could go up significantly if India promotes it in and around the region as an affordable fighter," *another official said. An order of such a magnitude, with each fighter costing a few hundreds of cores of rupees, could pitchfork the Indian private sector player into the global league of military aircraft makers, boost domestic aviation technology capabilities and help with the government's 'Make in India' cause.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

[Bregs] said:


> but here is very heartening and positive news regarding Tejas today,
> 
> Project to build new, improved version of ‘Tejas’ fighter may be given to private sector | idrw.org



its lifafa news.


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## IND151

Perpendicular said:


> Its big news. Whoever doubted 2018 2020 timeline, think again if this is done.



I believe Mk II will not be delayed.



Ranasikander said:


> We are also hearing such dead lines for lca mk1 since our child hood. Keeping in view the pathetic performance of hal and ada in meeting the previous dead lines.
> We are not so hope full for tall claims regarding mk11 early completion.



There was PDF in your childhood?


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## Perpendicular

IND151 said:


> I believe Mk II will not be delayed.


The force is strong with LCA


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## IND151

Perpendicular said:


> The force is strong with LCA



Mk II will be game changer in many ways.

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## #hydra#

IND151 said:


> Mk II will be game changer in many ways.


Only time will tell...


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## IND151

#hydra# said:


> Only time will tell...



Mk II will be superior to Mk I in many aspects, so it will be a game changer.

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## #hydra#

IND151 said:


> Mk II will be superior to Mk I in many aspects, so it will be a game changer.


Still it will be a desi light fighter,and IAF has a bad reputation when comes to desi products.Also we yet to see the actual tejas mk2.No body know how it's airframe will behave on drag issue.


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## Perpendicular

#hydra# said:


> Still it will be a desi light fighter,and IAF has a bad reputation when comes to desi products.Also we yet to see the actual tejas mk2.No body know how it's airframe will behave on drag issue.


Our desi light fighter against your desi light fighter. 
Your block III against our MKII.


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## IND151

#hydra# said:


> Still it will be a desi light fighter,and IAF has a bad reputation when comes to desi products.Also we yet to see the actual tejas mk2.No body know how it's airframe will behave on drag issue.



It will be better than MK 1 for sure.

Hope it enters service soon, we need them in numbers.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## trident2010

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>



Beautiful plane !

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## sudhir007

UK based Company “Cobham” Delays FOC of LCA-Tejas | idrw.org






DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher has confirmed to media that final operational clearance (FOC) for LCA Tejas which was to happen by year-end as been delayed due to non-supply of newly designed quartz radome and in-flight refueling probe, both were to be supplied by Cobham U.K.

He also added that FOC likely will take place by March 2016. When idrw.org contacted Cobham U.K, We did not get any response from them.

But our sources have confirmed that new quartz radome which was to replace Composite radome of Indian make to increase the detection range of the ELTA MMR Radar from 50 Kms to 80 plus Km are currently been used on Tejas MK-I aircrafts .

idrw.org sources have confirmed that HAL had placed orders for 3 quartz radome with Cobham U.K, but none has been supplied till now, Cobham U.K has also missed Three successive deadlines and the latest deadline missed by the company was set for April 2015 .

New quartz radome under testing for LCA-Tejas has failed internal Quality testing in their UK test facility and many in India are questioning if the company which bagged the contract in early 2014 is on purpose or deliberately delaying supply of radomes.

Cobham U.K also has failed to supply Fixed in-flight refueling probe to carry out mid-air refueling of LCA-Tejas MK-I aircrafts Certification of which is must to clear FOC.

LCA-Tejas aircrafts will start testing Israeli supplied Close Combat Air to air missiles like Python-5 and long range beyond visual range Derby missiles in Coming months, as reported earlier by idrw.org missiles have been successfully integrated with LCA-Tejas by visiting Israeli engineers at HAL Facility in Bengaluru .


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## Srinivas

I think there is enough space to fit 6 more hard points, two at the wing tips and 4 under the fuselage. 



Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


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## P.K.

*Will the Tejas get foreign help?*
*All indications suggest that the Aeronautical Development Agency, under the Defence Research & Development Organisation, is firmly in control*


*Ajai Shukla | New Delhi * 
*July 14, 2015* Last Updated at 22:30 IST





As the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) nears final operational certification, which clears a fighter for combat operations, there are contradictory signals about the future of India's indigenous fighter.

Within the defence ministry, the feeling is growing that the affordable Tejas (currently Rs 156 crore) must eventually replace most of the 13 squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27fighters (about 230 aircraft) nearing the end of their service lives. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has courageously acknowledged that India cannot afford six squadrons (126 aircraft) of the pricey French Rafale that Dassault has offered for $15-20 billion. Instead, says Parrikar, India will buy only two Rafale squadrons (36 aircraft), spending the money saved on a larger Tejas fleet.

"Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21," Parrikar told Doordarshan News on April 13, three days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi disclosed in Paris that he had asked French President François Hollande for 36 fully-built Rafales in quick time.

Yet, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is not acquiring the Tejas in large numbers until the improved Mark II comes on stream. IAF has contracted with Hindustan Aeronautics for just 20 Mark I fighters for its first Tejas squadron that will come up at Sulur, near Coimbatore. Another 20 Tejas will be contracted when the fighter obtains final operational certification, likely by the end of this financial year.

This was made clear on December 20, 2013, when the Tejas obtained its initial operational certification. Then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, stated: "The final goal for all of us is not just LCA Mark I, but LCA Mark II. While our air warriors are fully geared up to induct and operationalise the two Mark I squadrons, IAF keenly looks forward to induction of four squadrons of LCA Mark II as the final version in its projected force structure."

Although the Mark II is at least three years from flying, Parrikar, like his predecessor AK Antony, has accepted IAF's roadmap for ordering another four Tejas squadrons (84 fighters) only after the Aeronautical Development Agency delivers a tested and certified Mark II. Added to these numbers would be the Indian Navy's requirement of 65 Tejas fighters, most of which would be Mark II.

If the Aeronautical Development Agency manages to certify the Tejas Mark II in the six-year timeframe it has set for itself, it would have taken 28 years from the time that funds were allotted in 1993 to build the prototype. If it remains within the current budget, this would have taken Rs 14,047 crore.

"To have started from scratch and built a fourth-generation fighter, along with a countrywide aerospace industry, and research and testing facilities, for $2.2 billion in less than three decades, is, by any standards, a technological leapfrog. In most countries, it would have drawn generous applause; in India, there is mainly criticism," points out strategic expert Bharat Karnad.

*A versatile fighter*
For the pilots of the National Flight Test Centre who have flown nearly 3,000 sorties, the Tejas is already a fine fighter. It has been tested to Mach 1.6 (2,000 kilometres per hour), a ceiling of 15,000 metres (50,000 feet), and carries 3,500 kilogrammes of mission payload. Its avionics, sensors and weapons make it a swing-role fighter. The pilot detects enemy aircraft with its Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar beyond visual range, and fires Israeli Derby and Python air-to-air missiles through a "helmet-mounted sighting system" that locks onto a target merely by looking at it. In mid-flight, the pilot can switch to a ground strike mode, using his navigation-attack system to strike ground targets accurately with free-fall bombs, or conduct precision strikes with laser-guided munitions. The Tejas also has the trusty 23-millimetre Gasha cannon.

Although a lightweight fighter with a maximum take-off weight of 13,500 kilos, the Tejas carries mission payload as much as bigger fighters like the MiG-27 and Mirage-2000. Nine hard points on its wings and fuselage carry air-to-air missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks, a gun and a camera.

In a balanced IAF, with a mix of light, medium and heavy fighters, the Tejas, operating from forward air bases like Srinagar, Pathank or Jaisalmer, could focus on the tactical battle. Meanwhile, heavier fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI, with longer range and greater strike power, could be directed at targets deep inside enemy territory.

Tejas test pilots maintain the fighter is more versatile than the MiG-29 (built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike), and all variants of MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON which the Indian fighter comprehensively outclasses. They say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force's early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.

The Tejas' performance rests on advanced technologies that were extremely ambitious when they were undertaken. Its manoeuvrability comes from an "unstable design", and is prevented from falling out of the sky by a sophisticated quadriplex digital "integrated flight control system". The fighter's on-board systems and weapon delivery are managed by an "integrated mission computer" and the pilot sits in a high-tech "glass cockpit" with digital displays that make flying a videogame experience.

On the day the Tejas obtained initial operational certification, Group Captain Suneet Krishna, who has test flown the fighter for years, told Business Standard: "This is a pilot's aircraft. It flies beautifully, and the avionics are excellent. There is a huge flow of information coming in to the pilot."

*Developing the Mark II*
Notwithstanding their affection for the Tejas, National Flight Test Centre test pilots admit it needs specific improvements for evolving into a world-beating aircraft. For close-in dog fighting, which involves sudden acceleration and sharp climbing, the fighter needs more engine power than the 83 KiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust its General Electric F-414IN20 engine provides. For that reason, the Aeronautical Development Agency has decided to power the Mark II with a GE F-414INS6 engine that will deliver 98 kN of peak power. Upgrading the engine is more essential for the Naval Tejas, providing the burst of power needed for getting airborne in just 200 metres of runway on an aircraft carrier's deck.

The Aeronautical Development Agency has said that GE will supply 99 F-414 engines for the Tejas Mark II, with the first of them arriving by September. The GE website indicates the two engines are of identical size, but the F-414 is probably heavier.

Besides a new engine, the Tejas Mark II would have its internals rearranged, to make them more accessible and maintenance friendly. Furthermore, the Tejas Mark I is burdened with 300 kilos of ballast: dead weight inserted while designing the fighter to correct its centre of gravity. The ballast removed, and the Mark II could instead carry 300 more kilos of useful payload. Finally, the Tejas Mark II would feature upgraded avionics that are faster, lighter and smarter than the Mark I. This would improve combat performance and operational security. A key upgrade would involve fitting indigenous Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar to replace the current ELTA EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar. Recent media reports suggest the defence ministry could bring in a foreign vendor - Airbus Defence and Saab have been mentioned - to develop and mass manufacture the Mark II.

Foreign collaboration has already featured in the Tejas programme. US major Lockheed Martin and Dassault of France contributed to its initial design. European consortium EADS (Airbus Group now) has provided consultancy on flight-testing. And, as Business Standard reported in June 2014, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), under which the Aeronautical Development Agency functions, had asked Swedish company Saab in 2013 to submit a proposal for partnering on designing the Mark II and establishing a manufacturing line for the fighter. Saab duly submitted a quote. But DRDO's leadership changed in June 2013, with Avinash Chander succeeding VK Saraswat. Chander stalled Saab's proposal, reluctant to award such a contract without competitive tendering. Senior Saab officials, bitten by this experience, say the company would now participate only with clear sovereign guarantees.

Unless the Aeronautical Development Agency comes a cropper in designing the Tejas Mark II, it is highly unlikely that a foreign company could be parachuted in to oversee the development. It remains firmly in control, not just of the Tejas LCA project, but also in developing the next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Foreign vendors could, at the most, provide design consultancy on specific aspects. A role for foreign companies is rather more likely in galvanising production lines, an area that has seen only faltering progress in the Tejas programme.

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## #hydra#

P.K. said:


> *Will the Tejas get foreign help?*
> *All indications suggest that the Aeronautical Development Agency, under the Defence Research & Development Organisation, is firmly in control*
> 
> 
> *Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
> July 14, 2015* Last Updated at 22:30 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) nears final operational certification, which clears a fighter for combat operations, there are contradictory signals about the future of India's indigenous fighter.
> 
> Within the defence ministry, the feeling is growing that the affordable Tejas (currently Rs 156 crore) must eventually replace most of the 13 squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27fighters (about 230 aircraft) nearing the end of their service lives. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has courageously acknowledged that India cannot afford six squadrons (126 aircraft) of the pricey French Rafale that Dassault has offered for $15-20 billion. Instead, says Parrikar, India will buy only two Rafale squadrons (36 aircraft), spending the money saved on a larger Tejas fleet.
> 
> "Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21," Parrikar told Doordarshan News on April 13, three days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi disclosed in Paris that he had asked French President François Hollande for 36 fully-built Rafales in quick time.
> 
> Yet, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is not acquiring the Tejas in large numbers until the improved Mark II comes on stream. IAF has contracted with Hindustan Aeronautics for just 20 Mark I fighters for its first Tejas squadron that will come up at Sulur, near Coimbatore. Another 20 Tejas will be contracted when the fighter obtains final operational certification, likely by the end of this financial year.
> 
> This was made clear on December 20, 2013, when the Tejas obtained its initial operational certification. Then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, stated: "The final goal for all of us is not just LCA Mark I, but LCA Mark II. While our air warriors are fully geared up to induct and operationalise the two Mark I squadrons, IAF keenly looks forward to induction of four squadrons of LCA Mark II as the final version in its projected force structure."
> 
> Although the Mark II is at least three years from flying, Parrikar, like his predecessor AK Antony, has accepted IAF's roadmap for ordering another four Tejas squadrons (84 fighters) only after the Aeronautical Development Agency delivers a tested and certified Mark II. Added to these numbers would be the Indian Navy's requirement of 65 Tejas fighters, most of which would be Mark II.
> 
> If the Aeronautical Development Agency manages to certify the Tejas Mark II in the six-year timeframe it has set for itself, it would have taken 28 years from the time that funds were allotted in 1993 to build the prototype. If it remains within the current budget, this would have taken Rs 14,047 crore.
> 
> "To have started from scratch and built a fourth-generation fighter, along with a countrywide aerospace industry, and research and testing facilities, for $2.2 billion in less than three decades, is, by any standards, a technological leapfrog. In most countries, it would have drawn generous applause; in India, there is mainly criticism," points out strategic expert Bharat Karnad.
> 
> *A versatile fighter*
> For the pilots of the National Flight Test Centre who have flown nearly 3,000 sorties, the Tejas is already a fine fighter. It has been tested to Mach 1.6 (2,000 kilometres per hour), a ceiling of 15,000 metres (50,000 feet), and carries 3,500 kilogrammes of mission payload. Its avionics, sensors and weapons make it a swing-role fighter. The pilot detects enemy aircraft with its Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar beyond visual range, and fires Israeli Derby and Python air-to-air missiles through a "helmet-mounted sighting system" that locks onto a target merely by looking at it. In mid-flight, the pilot can switch to a ground strike mode, using his navigation-attack system to strike ground targets accurately with free-fall bombs, or conduct precision strikes with laser-guided munitions. The Tejas also has the trusty 23-millimetre Gasha cannon.
> 
> Although a lightweight fighter with a maximum take-off weight of 13,500 kilos, the Tejas carries mission payload as much as bigger fighters like the MiG-27 and Mirage-2000. Nine hard points on its wings and fuselage carry air-to-air missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks, a gun and a camera.
> 
> In a balanced IAF, with a mix of light, medium and heavy fighters, the Tejas, operating from forward air bases like Srinagar, Pathank or Jaisalmer, could focus on the tactical battle. Meanwhile, heavier fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI, with longer range and greater strike power, could be directed at targets deep inside enemy territory.
> 
> Tejas test pilots maintain the fighter is more versatile than the MiG-29 (built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike), and all variants of MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON which the Indian fighter comprehensively outclasses. They say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force's early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.
> 
> The Tejas' performance rests on advanced technologies that were extremely ambitious when they were undertaken. Its manoeuvrability comes from an "unstable design", and is prevented from falling out of the sky by a sophisticated quadriplex digital "integrated flight control system". The fighter's on-board systems and weapon delivery are managed by an "integrated mission computer" and the pilot sits in a high-tech "glass cockpit" with digital displays that make flying a videogame experience.
> 
> On the day the Tejas obtained initial operational certification, Group Captain Suneet Krishna, who has test flown the fighter for years, told Business Standard: "This is a pilot's aircraft. It flies beautifully, and the avionics are excellent. There is a huge flow of information coming in to the pilot."
> 
> *Developing the Mark II*
> Notwithstanding their affection for the Tejas, National Flight Test Centre test pilots admit it needs specific improvements for evolving into a world-beating aircraft. For close-in dog fighting, which involves sudden acceleration and sharp climbing, the fighter needs more engine power than the 83 KiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust its General Electric F-414IN20 engine provides. For that reason, the Aeronautical Development Agency has decided to power the Mark II with a GE F-414INS6 engine that will deliver 98 kN of peak power. Upgrading the engine is more essential for the Naval Tejas, providing the burst of power needed for getting airborne in just 200 metres of runway on an aircraft carrier's deck.
> 
> The Aeronautical Development Agency has said that GE will supply 99 F-414 engines for the Tejas Mark II, with the first of them arriving by September. The GE website indicates the two engines are of identical size, but the F-414 is probably heavier.
> 
> Besides a new engine, the Tejas Mark II would have its internals rearranged, to make them more accessible and maintenance friendly. Furthermore, the Tejas Mark I is burdened with 300 kilos of ballast: dead weight inserted while designing the fighter to correct its centre of gravity. The ballast removed, and the Mark II could instead carry 300 more kilos of useful payload. Finally, the Tejas Mark II would feature upgraded avionics that are faster, lighter and smarter than the Mark I. This would improve combat performance and operational security. A key upgrade would involve fitting indigenous Airborne Electronically Scanned Array radar to replace the current ELTA EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar. Recent media reports suggest the defence ministry could bring in a foreign vendor - Airbus Defence and Saab have been mentioned - to develop and mass manufacture the Mark II.
> 
> Foreign collaboration has already featured in the Tejas programme. US major Lockheed Martin and Dassault of France contributed to its initial design. European consortium EADS (Airbus Group now) has provided consultancy on flight-testing. And, as Business Standard reported in June 2014, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), under which the Aeronautical Development Agency functions, had asked Swedish company Saab in 2013 to submit a proposal for partnering on designing the Mark II and establishing a manufacturing line for the fighter. Saab duly submitted a quote. But DRDO's leadership changed in June 2013, with Avinash Chander succeeding VK Saraswat. Chander stalled Saab's proposal, reluctant to award such a contract without competitive tendering. Senior Saab officials, bitten by this experience, say the company would now participate only with clear sovereign guarantees.
> 
> Unless the Aeronautical Development Agency comes a cropper in designing the Tejas Mark II, it is highly unlikely that a foreign company could be parachuted in to oversee the development. It remains firmly in control, not just of the Tejas LCA project, but also in developing the next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. Foreign vendors could, at the most, provide design consultancy on specific aspects. A role for foreign companies is rather more likely in galvanising production lines, an area that has seen only faltering progress in the Tejas programme.


Any idea on AESA radar?desi one or foreign....


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## uparyupari

sudhir007 said:


> UK based Company “Cobham” Delays FOC of LCA-Tejas | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher has confirmed to media that final operational clearance (FOC) for LCA Tejas which was to happen by year-end as been delayed due to non-supply of newly designed quartz radome and in-flight refueling probe, both were to be supplied by Cobham U.K.
> 
> He also added that FOC likely will take place by March 2016. When idrw.org contacted Cobham U.K, We did not get any response from them.
> 
> But our sources have confirmed that new quartz radome which was to replace Composite radome of Indian make to increase the detection range of the ELTA MMR Radar from 50 Kms to 80 plus Km are currently been used on Tejas MK-I aircrafts .
> 
> idrw.org sources have confirmed that HAL had placed orders for 3 quartz radome with Cobham U.K, but none has been supplied till now, Cobham U.K has also missed Three successive deadlines and the latest deadline missed by the company was set for April 2015 .
> 
> New quartz radome under testing for LCA-Tejas has failed internal Quality testing in their UK test facility and many in India are questioning if the company which bagged the contract in early 2014 is on purpose or deliberately delaying supply of radomes.
> 
> Cobham U.K also has failed to supply Fixed in-flight refueling probe to carry out mid-air refueling of LCA-Tejas MK-I aircrafts Certification of which is must to clear FOC.
> 
> LCA-Tejas aircrafts will start testing Israeli supplied Close Combat Air to air missiles like Python-5 and long range beyond visual range Derby missiles in Coming months, as reported earlier by idrw.org missiles have been successfully integrated with LCA-Tejas by visiting Israeli engineers at HAL Facility in Bengaluru .



Obviously Cobham is delaying on purpose. How naive is DRDO ?


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## Echo_419

sudhir007 said:


> UK based Company “Cobham” Delays FOC of LCA-Tejas | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher has confirmed to media that final operational clearance (FOC) for LCA Tejas which was to happen by year-end as been delayed due to non-supply of newly designed quartz radome and in-flight refueling probe, both were to be supplied by Cobham U.K.
> 
> He also added that FOC likely will take place by March 2016. When idrw.org contacted Cobham U.K, We did not get any response from them.
> 
> But our sources have confirmed that new quartz radome which was to replace Composite radome of Indian make to increase the detection range of the ELTA MMR Radar from 50 Kms to 80 plus Km are currently been used on Tejas MK-I aircrafts .
> 
> idrw.org sources have confirmed that HAL had placed orders for 3 quartz radome with Cobham U.K, but none has been supplied till now, Cobham U.K has also missed Three successive deadlines and the latest deadline missed by the company was set for April 2015 .
> 
> New quartz radome under testing for LCA-Tejas has failed internal Quality testing in their UK test facility and many in India are questioning if the company which bagged the contract in early 2014 is on purpose or deliberately delaying supply of radomes.
> 
> Cobham U.K also has failed to supply Fixed in-flight refueling probe to carry out mid-air refueling of LCA-Tejas MK-I aircrafts Certification of which is must to clear FOC.
> 
> LCA-Tejas aircrafts will start testing Israeli supplied Close Combat Air to air missiles like Python-5 and long range beyond visual range Derby missiles in Coming months, as reported earlier by idrw.org missiles have been successfully integrated with LCA-Tejas by visiting Israeli engineers at HAL Facility in Bengaluru .



We should impose penalties on them


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## sudhir007

@Echo_419 @uparyupari 
I dnt understand why IAF want super multi fighter if it is light category.
a2a refueling add later with mark-2 and the range of radar will increase IAF did not use LCA from the Ist day in war so why it is so urgency i dnt understand. IAF pilot take year's to get expertise to fly. if it will take 2-3 yr then what are the problem.

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## Echo_419

sudhir007 said:


> @Echo_419 @uparyupari
> I dnt understand why IAF want super multi fighter if it is light category.
> a2a refueling add later with mark-2 and the range of radar will increase IAF did not use LCA from the Ist day in war so why it is so urgency i dnt understand. IAF pilot take year's to get expertise to fly. if it will take 2-3 yr then what are the problem.



Simple people who draft these RFIs read to much comics

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## uparyupari

sudhir007 said:


> @Echo_419 @uparyupari
> I dnt understand why IAF want super multi fighter if it is light category.
> a2a refueling add later with mark-2 and the range of radar will increase IAF did not use LCA from the Ist day in war so why it is so urgency i dnt understand. IAF pilot take year's to get expertise to fly. if it will take 2-3 yr then what are the problem.



Have you ever seen a spoilt brat who think's the world revolves around them ? ......... people who think they are gods gift to mankind ? Meet the IAF pilots. 

Rest of India exist only to serve them.


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## W@rwolf

As per a report on Telegraph India, on 18th July

"To add to the air force’s worries about depleting force levels, a light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas that was recently in field trials in Jaisalmer returned to Bangalore with a major technical fault: its undercarriage was down. 
The Jaisalmer incident has further sapped the air force’s confidence in the LCA."

Any info about this incident guys??

Cost worry on Rafale and Tejas


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## Echo_419

W@rwolf said:


> As per a report on Telegraph India, on 18th July
> 
> "To add to the air force’s worries about depleting force levels, a light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas that was recently in field trials in Jaisalmer returned to Bangalore with a major technical fault: its undercarriage was down.
> The Jaisalmer incident has further sapped the air force’s confidence in the LCA."
> 
> Any info about this incident guys??
> 
> Cost worry on Rafale and Tejas



To much sensationalism


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## NKVD

W@rwolf said:


> As per a report on Telegraph India, on 18th July
> 
> "To add to the air force’s worries about depleting force levels, a light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas that was recently in field trials in Jaisalmer returned to Bangalore with a major technical fault: its undercarriage was down.
> The Jaisalmer incident has further sapped the air force’s confidence in the LCA."
> 
> Any info about this incident guys??
> 
> Cost worry on Rafale and Tejas


Clear Drafted For Propaganda nothing Such Incident Happened LCA is Major Project Every Small Incident Related to it become A News in Defense Circles in South block

By going to its Source Its another Pathetic Attempt to Downplaying LCA By Armed Lobby 
Calcutta,Telegraph Sujan dutta Never heard of this Guy Before By analyzing his article it clearly shows Guy don't have Knowledge about defense Matters 
see the source 
Cost worry on Rafale and Tejas

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## SQ8

P.K. said:


> . They say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force's early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.


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## Stephen Cohen

P.K. said:


> They say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force's early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.



You are Right ; just a FEW niggles are left 
which would be sorted out in a few months 

As they say the LAST few steps are always the heaviest


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

P.K. said:


> They say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force's early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.



there is no comparison between a 4+ gen air-frame design (RSS) (F16, Tejas etc) and a 3rd gen air-frame design (jf17, Mig21 etc)


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## Superboy

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> there is no comparison between a 4+ gen air-frame design (RSS) (F16, Tejas etc) and a 3rd gen air-frame design (jf17, Mig21 etc)




JF-17 has DSI. Tejas does not. JF-17 had the world's most advanced airframe until J-10B came along.


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## Last Samuri

To Superboy.

re your POST


> JF-17 had the world's most advanced airframe until J-10B came along.



That explains why PAF just brought second hand battered to death used F16 from the might air force of Jordan.


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## knight11

Superboy said:


> JF-17 has DSI. Tejas does not. JF-17 had the world's most advanced airframe until J-10B came along.


What does DSI has to do with the fighter plane capability ? Divertless air intake decreases the RCS by shielding the engine fans when correctly designed but so does S shape airduct also decreases the RCS. DSI actually decreases the manufacturing cost and also complexity and weight ;eliminating the need of spliters, inlet cones.


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## knight11

Superboy said:


> Pakistan has intellectual rights to WS-13 since WS-13 is engine of JF-17 and JF-17 is joint venture.


Superboy statement is really great I am really wondering !! Raised many questions
*What does JV means?* An example JV of Brahmos between Russia and India does India will get all the technology of Russians seekers and source code which it share or just the IP of the part developed by india. If you are correct Superboy India have the world class technology in hand for the seakers of Brahmos and Barak 1 and 8. 

Oh I forgot the engine tech we are getting from Russia from PAK-FA project.
May be its an exceptional clause signed with the deal. But why any country would share his tech and know how which it earns by investing so much in R&D. Developing an engine is not easy and required billions $ in R&D. You can see how many country can make their turbofan engine and no one will share its secrets. YES friendly nations provide tech but the inferior ones that too not free.

There are many who criticize DRDO, ADA for the delays but the fact is R&D needs patience, hardwork, dedication, and also money. In science everything is zero because it is 99.9999% complete but why forgot the achievement made that is knowledge. That’s the price to be paid for a pessimistic/stifling national outlook towards technological advancement with zero-tolerance towards failures and import at all cost attitude.





Please share your thought.


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## Dazzler

Last Samuri said:


> To Superboy.
> 
> re your POST
> 
> That explains why PAF just brought second hand battered to death used F16 from the might air force of Jordan.



PAF had developed and accommodated infrastructure for 110 f-16s since 1989 which is still in place. Hence they will keep inducting new or used falcons till the full infrastructure and logistics in place are consumed. It has nothing to do with jf-17 being less capable. It is the future mainstay.

Back to topic


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## GURU DUTT

Dazzler said:


> PAF had developed and accommodated infrastructure for 110 f-16s since 1989 which is still in place. Hence they will keep inducting new or used falcons till the full infrastructure and logistics in place are consumed. It has nothing to do with jf-17 being less capable. It is the future mainstay.
> 
> Back to topic


PAF has 110 F-16 

now thats some news ...... brrrrrrr im so afraid ..... mummy bachaao 



Superboy said:


> JF-17 has DSI. Tejas does not. JF-17 had the world's most advanced airframe until J-10B came along.


so DSI tech master is back


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## knight11

GURU DUTT said:


> PAF has 110 F-16
> 
> now thats some news ...... brrrrrrr im so afraid ..... mummy bachaao
> 
> 
> so DSI tech master is back


Why everyone is calling superboy "Dsiboy" or Dsi tech master ? DSI is actually difficult to design but easy to manufacture, reduce weight. No hard feeling he might like the DSI technology much. Superboy can you elloborate us on pros and cons on performance in both subsonic and supersonic regime of an aircraft using DSI.


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## raazh

Last Samuri said:


> To Superboy.
> 
> re your POST
> 
> That explains why PAF just brought second hand battered to death used F16 from the might air force of Jordan.



So if IAF has ~200 Su30 but wants to buy Rafale; does this mean ur Su30's are Junk ?? You are upgrading your Old Jags, Mirage2K; even though you have Su30 .. does this mean Su30 are Junk ?? On top of that IAF wana induct LCA .. does this mean Su30, M2K, Mig29 and the rest of the fleet is Junk ??

Every Air force has set out its goals and requirements. They purchase or induct according to those goals .. each plane has its role and they are used accordingly


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## GURU DUTT

knight11 said:


> Why everyone is calling superboy "Dsiboy" or Dsi tech master ? DSI is actually difficult to design but easy to manufacture, reduce weight.


are you trying to trap me cause you dont look like that its your first stint on PDF ... anyway like your avatar of "ardh nareshwar"



raazh said:


> So if IAF has ~200 Su30 but it wanna buy Rafale; does this mean those 200 Su30's are Junk ?? You are upgrading your Old Jags, Mirage2K even though you have Su30 .. does this mean Su30 are Junk ?? On top of that you IAF wana induck LCA .. does this mean Su30, M2K, Mig29 and the rest of the fleet is Junk ??
> 
> Every Air force has set out its goals and requirements. They purchase or induct according to those goals ..


no pakistanies interpret it like that owr doctroine is pretty clear (single engine light fighters for point defnce M21,LCA , twin engined medium fighters for deep strike & engaging hostile airforce Jags,M2K, M29 & rafale while heavy fighters as air supremecy=MKI)

but pakistanies deu to their jealousy and inherited hate against india and to make fun coax indians to talk like that and then we have superboy .... baki aap khud samjhdaar ho haina

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## knight11

GURU DUTT sir sorry I really don't mean that but i browse the thread and saw remarks like DSI boy or like that. I regret for my remark


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## GURU DUTT

knight11 said:


> GURU DUTT sir sorry I really don't mean that but i browse the thread and saw remarks like DSI boy or like that. I regret for my remark


SIR


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## knight11

My Avatar is for my respect to my wife who gifted me to be called SAMPURNA . A man and a father

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## Dazzler

GURU DUTT said:


> PAF has 110 F-16
> 
> now thats some news ...... brrrrrrr im so afraid ..... mummy bachaao
> 
> 
> so DSI tech master is back



Reading issues? The INFRASTRUCTURE was there to accommodate 110 f-16s, there were 70 more to come that were embargoed after pressler amendment.

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## GURU DUTT

knight11 said:


> My Avatar is for my respect to my wife who gifted me to be called SAMPURNA . A man and a father


god bless you , your child and your wife with all the best of his love and care



Dazzler said:


> Reading issues? The INFRASTRUCTURE was there to accommodate 110 f-16s, there were 70 more to come that were embargoed after pressler amendment.


last i remmeber pressler amendments were imposed on you after the demise of USSR in mid 1990s so what stopped you in going for the rest 70 after your nation started working again with the USA post 9/11


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

GURU DUTT said:


> god bless you , your child and your wife with all the best of his love and care
> 
> 
> last i remmeber pressler amendments were imposed on you after the demise of USSR in mid 1990s so what stopped you in going for the rest 70 after your nation started working again with the USA post 9/11



requirement of precision bombing TTP came in just one year back and the only capable plane they could manage was F16.


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## GURU DUTT

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> requirement of precision bombing TTP came in just one year back and the only capable plane they could manage was F16.


what happenned to the DSI tech enabelled super wonder of fighter jets which all pakistani members love


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

GURU DUTT said:


> what happenned to the DSI tech enabelled super wonder of fighter jets which all pakistani members love



it only can handle dumb bombs. mk2 perhaps can do more.

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## GURU DUTT

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> it only can handle dumb bombs. mk2 perhaps can do more.


hmmm so when its coming


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

GURU DUTT said:


> hmmm so when its coming

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## Superboy

Last Samuri said:


> To Superboy.
> 
> re your POST
> 
> That explains why PAF just brought second hand battered to death used F16 from the might air force of Jordan.




F-16 is a size class above JF-17.  It's like, why does India want Rafale when India already uses Su-30.


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## GURU DUTT

^^behold indians here comes thunderring typhoons super high sky rocketting IQ holder and champion of DSI tech


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## Superboy

knight11 said:


> Superboy can you elloborate us on pros and cons on performance in both subsonic and supersonic regime of an aircraft using DSI.




DSI is 21st century technology. It's like, why do people fly Boeing 787 rather than a prop powered airliner. Same idea.


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## knight11

Superboy said:


> DSI is 21st century technology. It's like, why do people fly Boeing 787 rather than a prop powered airliner. Same idea.



Dear sir i asked the *percentage of performance increase* using DSI and at what speed range in jf17 and please give some elaborate and technical answer. DSI design would be done by keeping the speed variable in mind as i told you it is difficult to design it but easy to manufacture. It is not just copy the design of another plane to any another one. The amount of air flow at variable speed variable has to kept in mind.


USA (Lockhed martin ) have been working in DSI concept since 90's and Chinese were all of a sudden able to come up with a production ready DSI intake on the FC-1 in the early 2000s when no other manufacturer in the world had even attempted this. WOW is it a coincidence or some people says idea as well as design and CFD data was in some way or the other stolen by the Chinese through industrial and academic espionage at Lockheed Martin and the research labs that worked on DSI. What DSI does is to reduce the RCS as the vanes and doors of variable inlets are a source of RCS. They tend to be at angles that can reflect radar waves back to the emitter. By eliminating those variable inlets and even the splitter plate, the DSI basically reduces the RCS a bit.It also is claimed to help improve power available to the pilot in the subsonic range a bit..but its not an improvement that warranted a complete change from the conventional inlet to the new DSI inlet..otherwise we would have f-22 Raptor with DSI or certainly f-18 and other fighter manufacturer designing or working on it.

Now since it is Tejas thread...... *On the Tejas, the splitter plate and the bleed channel leading onto the top of the wing near the wing root does the same job as the DSI.* The method used on the Tejas is not a complicated mechanical boundary layer control method. That splitter plate doesn't move forward or backward depending on the speed and altitude of operation. It is fixed, which means that it is uncomplicated and light weight but it also means that it puts a restriction on just how fast the LCA can go- in this case the top speed being set at Mach 1.6 or 1.8 (i am not in ADA).

Some previous generation aircraft used a more complicated, and heavier system called a variable inlet- for instance the Mirage-2000 with its "mouse" cone that can move in or out of the air intake depending on speed and altitude. By moderating the size of the intake through which the air would get inside the intake, the "mouse" would control the pressure inside the air channel near the compressor. If the air velocity was too high (supersonic) the "mouse" would come out, narrowing down the air intake and that way compress the air entering the intake, and in that way increase pressure at the cost of velocity. So there were two benefits- the air pressure in the air channel was higher (a higher Coefficient of Pressure is beneficial) and the air velocity was sub-sonic. Now why is it that you need sub-sonic velocity in the channel ? Because supersonic waves would create havoc with the compressor blades due to the shock waves that are associated with them. They could cause a compressor stall.

And the reason that previous generation aircraft featured such intakes is because there was a time when Mach 2 and Mach 2+ performance was considered important. So aircraft that needed to fly that fast needed this complicated inlet system to ensure that they could safely fly to Mach 2 or beyond without the engine compressor blades stalling. Another aircraft that would illustrate the inlet and the diverter is the MiG-23. The MiG-23s had this complicated inlet geometry. This is one of the essential differences between the MiG-23 and 27 which you can verify by a simple visual comparison since the fixed inlet diverter is smaller- the variable inlet was removed on the MiG-27 and in its place a fixed inlet was put. This restricted the MiG-27's max speed to below that of the MiG-23, but since the primary job of the MiG-27 was Strike, CAS and Interdiction it's top speed was not that important.

On the Tejas, the ASR would have specified a top speed in the range of Mach 1.6-8 or so. That would've meant that if the inlet was designed well then you could get to that speed without the variable geometry, which is why they don't have a variable inlet. But the problem with the design that they chose, of an intake that is shielded by the wing is that it restricts or "jams" the airflow between the splitter plate and the wing. In this region, they created a veritable "pocket" into which the boundary layer air would get jammed. Now, you cannot have air trapped in that pocket without giving it a path to flow down or up with a channel- so the bleed channel was provided onto the top of the wing. And it turned out to be a blessing as it now directed turbulent flow onto the top of the wing and generated vortex that helped keep the air boundary layer stay attached even at high alpha angles. This concept is quite unique amongst fighters (similar things are done on leading and even trailing edges, but not near the intake) and how successful it has been can be gauged by the fact that even the newest AMCA design (whose wind-tunnel model ) had a similar bleed channel.

Hope this will clear the DSI doubt !!

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## Taygibay

Post 720 : somone predicts LCA MkII in 2020.
Post 730 : same person predicts LCA MkII in 2025.

By that logic, since we are now at post 823, Tejas MkII is due in 2070? *
And with 5 years added every ten posts until induction, ( 2018 as per its
schedule ) it will fly after the Enterprise … NCC-1701-D in 2363?

That's saaaaaaad!

 Tay.

* 2075 in 7 answers.

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## knight11

The first flight of Tejas mk2 is said to be in 2018 my guess is after that certification of airframe and avionics will take atleast 5 years so it will be year 2023 tejas mk2 will enter the service.

20 orders for tejas of ioc standard and 20 orders for tejas of foc standards and 16 twin seater will keep the tejas line busy. Tejas program is late with its schedule but not so late may be 3-4 year late. I really hope IAF order more trainer atleast 70 and Navy 30. The twin seater version could be used for the training of the pilots for SU 30MKI where the digital cockpit of the tejas can mimic su30 MKI and will increase the TSL technical service life of MKI. The trainer version can be used for CAS operation during the war time also. It has the great potential for the LIFT. And I think they are on the correct track which I was hoping.


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## Superboy

knight11 said:


> USA (Lockhed martin ) have been working in DSI concept since 90's and Chinese were all of a sudden able to come up with a production ready DSI intake on the FC-1 in the early 2000s when no other manufacturer in the world had even attempted this. WOW is it a coincidence or some people says idea as well as design and CFD data was in some way or the other stolen by the Chinese through industrial and academic espionage at Lockheed Martin and the research labs that worked on DSI.




The US discloses everything it does. China does not. China works on a lot of stuffs, many not even the US does, without disclosing it.  DSI can't be stolen. Every DSI plane has a different DSI design. JF-17, J-10B, J-20, F-35 all have different DSI designs, none of which would work on any other plane.



knight11 said:


> The first flight of Tejas mk2 is said to be in 2018




Even if LCA mk 2 can fly in 2018, which is doubtful, induction won't be until many years later. J-10B flew in 2008 but did not enter service until 2014, that's almost SIX years. LCA mk 2 changes the entire airframe, even bigger change than J-10A to J-10B. That's going to give HAL a ton of trouble.  My estimate, LCA mk 2 fly after 2020 and enter service after 2025.


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## khanasifm

???????????????? Analysts: India's LCA Will Miss Another Deadline


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## sathya

Another news saying delay of tejas have come up on TNN

Series of copy news will follow

Guys be mature and don't get emotional ..

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## Sri

sathya said:


> Another news saying delay of tejas have come up on TNN
> 
> Series of copy news will follow
> 
> Guys be mature and don't get emotional ..


It doesnt matter if the FOC is delayed as the order for 20 copies of IOC standard needs to be manufactured first which will take atleast till end off 2017. So if FOC is achieved by end of 2016 also its should be fine. anyway HAL cannot manufacture FOC standard copies till they finish the first order of 20.
So No issues for the delay and they can as well do some more small refinements. All they need to do is by mid of 2017 they have a final version ready for serial production.


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## sathya

Sri said:


> It doesnt matter if the FOC is delayed as the order for 20 copies of IOC standard needs to be manufactured first which will take atleast till end off 2017. So if FOC is achieved by end of 2016 also its should be fine. anyway HAL cannot manufacture FOC standard copies till they finish the first order of 20.
> So No issues for the delay and they can as well do some more small refinements. All they need to do is by mid of 2017 they have a final version ready for serial production.



That's right, now trolls will make issue out of it, emotional friends will defend and will get banned..
That's why I want them to be tolerant now, and jump later on when tejas succeeds..

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## knight11

I would like to ask Couple of questions

1. Why no supersonic drop tank is been develop till now but only subsonic drop tank or any plans for CFT
2. Why IAF haven't ask to incorporating IRST in Mark 2 till now.
3. Is there any plans for incorporating TVC in F414 if yes whether it will be GE or integrating the F414 turbofan with the KLIVT TVC nozzle.
4. No one in India is developing any type of lightweight PGM, which is quite sad. Why IAF draft an ASQR for light MRCA & concurrently has not yet specified the reqmt for small air-to-ground PGMs
5. Why tejas trainer is not used for the training of su 30mki pilot as LIFT thus increasing the technical service life.
6. Why can't ADA have airborne test bed for testing and certifying airborne radars and other LRU but needs actual tejas prototype causing delays.
7. Why is the Tejas Mk1 not being re-moulded as an operational LIFT-cum-CAS platform when the Hawk Mk132 AJT is being remoulded as a CAS platform.
8. Why there is no dedicated air base for development and carring out experiments and testing for R&D could not be provided by the country for DRDO, ADA, HAL, IAF etc.
9. Why there is no development or the requirement of double or triple ejector rack pylon.
10. Does the zero tolerance in accident and the budget is causing the delay and how much is it justified.
11. With 180 su in hand should we put ourself in pressure and heat and hurry from the eastern threat and treat the present as high time to induct Tejas/Raffale. 
12. Why no development work and R&D in Quartz radome and other composites after all we will be working in AMCA



Sri said:


> It doesnt matter if the FOC is delayed as the order for 20 copies of IOC standard needs to be manufactured first which will take atleast till end off 2017. So if FOC is achieved by end of 2016 also its should be fine. anyway HAL cannot manufacture FOC standard copies till they finish the first order of 20.
> So No issues for the delay and they can as well do some more small refinements. All they need to do is by mid of 2017 they have a final version ready for serial production.


If FOC is achieve earlier on than all FOC standard thus which ever will come first.


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## Sri

knight11 said:


> I would like to ask Couple of questions
> 
> 1. Why no supersonic drop tank is been develop till now but only subsonic drop tank or any plans for CFT
> 2. Why IAF haven't ask to incorporating IRST in Mark 2 till now.
> 3. Is there any plans for incorporating TVC in F414 if yes whether it will be GE or integrating the F414 turbofan with the KLIVT TVC nozzle.
> 4. No one in India is developing any type of lightweight PGM, which is quite sad. Why IAF draft an ASQR for light MRCA & concurrently has not yet specified the reqmt for small air-to-ground PGMs
> 5. Why tejas trainer is not used for the training of su 30mki pilot as LIFT thus increasing the technical service life.
> 6. Why can't ADA have airborne test bed for testing and certifying airborne radars and other LRU but needs actual tejas prototype causing delays.
> 7. Why is the Tejas Mk1 not being re-moulded as an operational LIFT-cum-CAS platform when the Hawk Mk132 AJT is being remoulded as a CAS platform.
> 8. Why there is no dedicated air base for development and carring out experiments and testing for R&D could not be provided by the country for DRDO, ADA, HAL, IAF etc.
> 9. Why there is no development or the requirement of double or triple ejector rack pylon.
> 10. Does the zero tolerance in accident and the budget is causing the delay and how much is it justified.
> 11. With 180 su in hand should we put ourself in pressure and heat and hurry from the eastern threat and treat the present as high time to induct Tejas/Raffale.
> 12. Why no development work and R&D in Quartz radome and other composites after all we will be working in AMCA
> 
> 
> If FOC is achieve earlier on than all FOC standard thus which ever will come first.


If I understood your question correctly:
I do not think its possible to start FOC in between. I mean HAL will manufacture 20 IOC std tejas first, [what ever might be status of FOC] and then only will look into FOC std ( this was confirmed by PS)

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## knight11

SIR any answer to list of questions any expert here I am new in this forum.


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## Superboy

LCA is no DESI until it has DSI. Get it? JK


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## knight11

Superboy said:


> LCA is no DESI until it has DSI. Get it? JK



That will make LCA Chinese I fear would end up in PLAAF or PAF. 
Alert !!
what will happens to our depreciating squadron


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## Superboy

LCA planned FOC delayed till next year. However by my estimate FOC won't be achieved until after 2025. JF-17 got first squadron in 2010 but didn't get FOC until quite recently.

Final operational clearance for Tejas again delayed till next year - The Times of India

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## knight11

Superboy said:


> LCA planned FOC delayed till next year. However by my estimate FOC won't be achieved until after 2025. JF-17 got first squadron in 2010 but didn't get FOC until quite recently.
> 
> Final operational clearance for Tejas again delayed till next year - The Times of India


There is a tread in the Pdf i visited today


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## #hydra#

Superboy said:


> LCA is no DESI until it has DSI. Get it? JK


Respect respect


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## SRP

knight11 said:


> I would like to ask Couple of questions
> 
> 1. Why no supersonic drop tank is been develop till now but only subsonic drop tank or any plans for CFT
> 2. Why IAF haven't ask to incorporating IRST in Mark 2 till now.
> 3. Is there any plans for incorporating TVC in F414 if yes whether it will be GE or integrating the F414 turbofan with the KLIVT TVC nozzle.
> 4. No one in India is developing any type of lightweight PGM, which is quite sad. Why IAF draft an ASQR for light MRCA & concurrently has not yet specified the reqmt for small air-to-ground PGMs
> 5. Why tejas trainer is not used for the training of su 30mki pilot as LIFT thus increasing the technical service life.
> 6. Why can't ADA have airborne test bed for testing and certifying airborne radars and other LRU but needs actual tejas prototype causing delays.
> 7. Why is the Tejas Mk1 not being re-moulded as an operational LIFT-cum-CAS platform when the Hawk Mk132 AJT is being remoulded as a CAS platform.
> 8. Why there is no dedicated air base for development and carring out experiments and testing for R&D could not be provided by the country for DRDO, ADA, HAL, IAF etc.
> 9. Why there is no development or the requirement of double or triple ejector rack pylon.
> 10. Does the zero tolerance in accident and the budget is causing the delay and how much is it justified.
> 11. With 180 su in hand should we put ourself in pressure and heat and hurry from the eastern threat and treat the present as high time to induct Tejas/Raffale.
> 12. Why no development work and R&D in Quartz radome and other composites after all we will be working in AMCA
> 
> 
> If FOC is achieve earlier on than all FOC standard thus which ever will come first.



1. Supersonic drop tanks under development.
3. There is no such plan for TVC and it was confirmed by ex-boss of Tejas program.
5- Tejas is not designed as an advanced trainer but a point defence fighter.
10- If one accident had happened while prototypes were flying, they might shelved the program.
12- R&D going on.

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## knight11

SRP said:


> 1. Supersonic drop tanks under development.
> 3. There is no such plan for TVC and it was confirmed by ex-boss of Tejas program.
> 5- Tejas is not designed as an advanced trainer but a point defence fighter.
> 10- If one accident had happened while prototypes were flying, they might shelved the program.
> 12- R&D going on.


thanx for the reply
sir


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## sathya

knight11 said:


> I would like to ask Couple of questions
> 
> 1. Why no supersonic drop tank is been develop till now but only subsonic drop tank or any plans for CFT
> 2. Why IAF haven't ask to incorporating IRST in Mark 2 till now.
> 3. Is there any plans for incorporating TVC in F414 if yes whether it will be GE or integrating the F414 turbofan with the KLIVT TVC nozzle.
> 4. No one in India is developing any type of lightweight PGM, which is quite sad. Why IAF draft an ASQR for light MRCA & concurrently has not yet specified the reqmt for small air-to-ground PGMs
> 5. Why tejas trainer is not used for the training of su 30mki pilot as LIFT thus increasing the technical service life.
> 6. Why can't ADA have airborne test bed for testing and certifying airborne radars and other LRU but needs actual tejas prototype causing delays.
> 7. Why is the Tejas Mk1 not being re-moulded as an operational LIFT-cum-CAS platform when the Hawk Mk132 AJT is being remoulded as a CAS platform.
> 8. Why there is no dedicated air base for development and carring out experiments and testing for R&D could not be provided by the country for DRDO, ADA, HAL, IAF etc.
> 9. Why there is no development or the requirement of double or triple ejector rack pylon.
> 10. Does the zero tolerance in accident and the budget is causing the delay and how much is it justified.
> 11. With 180 su in hand should we put ourself in pressure and heat and hurry from the eastern threat and treat the present as high time to induct Tejas/Raffale.
> 12. Why no development work and R&D in Quartz radome and other composites after all we will be working in AMCA
> 
> 
> If FOC is achieve earlier on than all FOC standard thus which ever will come first.




7. Even though I hate to see tejas not used for CAS plans, I think hawk is planned to get modified because it's a mature platform unlike tejas.. Other that I don't see any other reason , and hawk is not a cheap aircraft.
I heard it will be around 20million $ in 2003.


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## Blue Marlin

knight11 said:


> Why everyone is calling superboy "Dsiboy" or Dsi tech master ? DSI is actually difficult to design but easy to manufacture, reduce weight. No hard feeling he might like the DSI technology much. Superboy can you elloborate us on pros and cons on performance in both subsonic and supersonic regime of an aircraft using DSI.



a dsi hasa few purposes the first is the reduce rcs which you got right. and the second is to slow down air whils traveling at supersonic speeds. fighters such as the eurofighter and the f15 have flap which widens and narrows dependant on its speed.

dsi have a advantage to flaps at it does not have any moving parts and it saves weight and airframe complexity.
the f35 also has a dsi

actually did you know this dsi design actually came from a peregrine falcon? it's nose has a bulge so that the air traveling inside it is slow. because the peregrine falcon travels at 200mph+ whilst diving and if it did not have a bulge on its nose then it's lungs would explode.


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## Taygibay

Rafale has supersonic inlets without any visible air flux diverter.
Then again, we don't call it DSI because it doesn't use a bump so that …
Super_fan_boy and others would probably argue that it doesn't work?
I surmise …

Good day all, Tay.






P.S.Just kidding, there a movable opening for bypass on the bottom.


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## knight11

blue marlin said:


> a dsi hasa few purposes the first is the reduce rcs which you got tight. and the second is to slow down air whils traveling at supersonic speeds. fighters such as the eurofighter and the f15 have flap which widens and narrows dependant on its speed.
> 
> dsi have a advantage to flaps at it does not have any moving parts and it saves weight and airframe complexity.
> the f35 also has a dsi
> 
> actually did you know this dsi design actually came from a peregrine falcon? it's nose has a bulge so that the air traveling inside it is slow. because the peregrine falcon travels at 200mph+ whilst diving and if it did not have a bulge on its nose then it's lungs would explode.
> 
> View attachment 241042


Hey buddy nice explanation. I was referring to our DSI BOY. I had explained some concept of DSI regarding the Tejas Question here 

HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2] | Page 55

but your explanation adds more beautyfuly.

Thankx for your work


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
31-July, 2015 14:46 IST
*Light Combat Aircraft *

The following shortcomings have been reported in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas-Mk-I. 

• Absence of Internal Jammer affecting survivability. 

• Aircraft performance shortfalls. 

• Maintainability issues. 

The above shortcomings were primarily due to following reasons: 

• Internal jammer technology at that time was based on TWT amplifier which needed about 1000 ltr volume space for integration on aircraft. Hence it could not be accommodated at the time of development of LCA Tejas, Mk-I. 

• The maintainability issues were raised by Indian Air Force (IAF) late in 2009, when design and drawings were already frozen for Mk-I. However, many of the safety critical maintenance issues are already addressed in Mk-I. 

Government has sanctioned project for development of LCA Mk-II in 2009. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the prime agency for development of LCA Mk-II with the public and private partnerships.All the above mentioned shortcomings in LCA Mk-I have been addressed in LCA Mk-II version. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Ashok Shankarrao Chavan and others in Lok Sabha today.


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## sudhir007

What are the shortcomings that have been reported in India's LCA Tejas Mk-I? - The Economic Times


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## Taygibay

Hindustani78 said:


> 1000 ltr volume space



*A cubic meter of amplifier???
*
What are these made of or running on? Are they coal driven ones with steam engine included?
It's just a vacuum tube with an electron gun and power source 5 feet long by one wide should do it.

TWT amplifiers are many times smaller than what that piece quoted :
Radar Basics - Traveling Wave Tube
TWTA (Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers), TWT Amplifiers
Check this one from Wiki and 1980s Russian Gorizont sats :





add a power source and protection circuits and voilà!

Maybe 100 liters at worst, 10 liters more likely from modern company, certainly not 1 000 …

Good day, Tay.


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## Armstrong

Taygibay said:


> Rafale has supersonic inlets without any visible air flux diverter.
> Then again, we don't call it DSI because it doesn't use a bump so that …
> Super_fan_boy and others would probably argue that it doesn't work?
> I surmise …
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.Just kidding, there a movable opening for bypass on the bottom.



You are giving Rafale's to our opponents ?  

How could you ? I thought we were brothers !


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## Taygibay

Armstrong said:


> You are giving Rafale's to our opponents ?
> 
> How could you ? I thought we were brothers !



LOL What was that about bro?
If ( hopefully ) a joke, I must be slow today, that one went right past me!

 Tay.

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## Armstrong

Taygibay said:


> LOL What was that about bro?
> If ( hopefully ) a joke, I must be slow today, that one went right past me!
> 
> Tay.



No I always tease @Gabriel92 that 'cause the French are selling the Rafales to India I feel betrayed 'cause you guys are selling these birds to the opponent of your brother - Me ! 

He always says that 'business before brotherhood' !

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## Taygibay

Armstrong said:


> No I always tease @Gabriel92 that 'cause the French are selling the Rafales to India I feel betrayed 'cause you guys are selling these birds to the opponent of your brother - Me !
> 
> He always says that 'business before brotherhood' !



OH! OK! Got it! I was put-off by your slight off topic, this being the Tejas thread? 
And do keep calm my friend, knowing Indian procurements, sorry to all Bharatis but
… even a govt-to govt deal could still falter and yield no results? 

Have great day, you joker you, Tay.

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## sathya




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## Silent egale

India should go for GRIPEN NG as LCA Tejas has already taken so much time. And as per information, it has outdated Indian technology and they screw drive foreign parts in its for upgradation...


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## GURU DUTT

Silent egale said:


> India should go for GRIPEN NG as LCA Tejas has already taken so much time. And as per information, it has outdated Indian technology and they screw drive foreign parts in its for upgradation...


thanks for the concern but we dont need your advice ... good day

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## Silent egale

GURU DUTT said:


> thanks for the concern but we dont need your advice ... good day



I am not given advise to any one but I just mention my voice. If you like it or not.


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## Karimulkhan Shatanarey

Tejas has cost too long...i doubt whether I can see it battle in the sky


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## GURU DUTT

Silent egale said:


> I am not given advise to any one but I just mention my voice. If you like it or not.


nobody here gives a flying **** as to what you say 

maan na maan mai tera mehman


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
04-August, 2015 17:12 IST
*Schedule for Induction of Tejas Mark Ii Aircraft Into Service *

*The project for design and development of Light combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs.2431.55 Crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018.* However, *because of delay in finalisation of Engine Contract, the project could start only in December 2013.* *As a result, maiden flight of first Prototype and Operational Clearance are likely to be completed by December 2019 and December 2022, respectively. There after induction. *

*Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bengaluru is the Nodal Agency for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II. ADA has not entered into any collaboration with European Aircraft Manufacturers who had participated in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tenders for development of Tejas Mk-II. However, ADA may like to avail consultancy from some of them.* 

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II would be an improved version of LCA Mk-I. Some of the new systems / technologies, like* Active Electrically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite, On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), Upgraded Avionics, etc. are to be included in LCA Tejas Mk-II to make the aircraft more contemporary. *Technologies, systems engineering and experience gained during development of* LCA Tejas Mk-II would benefit the development of Fifth Generation Aircraft indigenously. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Vijay Jawaharlal Darda in Rajya Sabha today.


----------



## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/631722442235379712

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Water Car Engineer

> Pinning hope on India's indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, on Thursday was optimistic that the jet, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would would meet requirements of the force.
> 
> "Obviously, the Tejas is a very good bet because we need to go indigenous. It may not be best in the world but obviously it will meet some of our requirements," Raha told journalists after reviewing the security scenario in the northeast with commanders from the Eastern Air Command here.
> 
> "We want them in large quantities and larger numbers so plan are afoot to improve its quality is likely more and produce them in larger numbers some more to fill the void that the IAF has more or likely to have it in the future as the legacy fleets get decommissioned and therefore, Tejas will be one of our mainstay," he said.
> 
> "Towards that I think Make in India or indigenous production is what the government of the country is taking of so there will be a lot of fast tracking in this directions to have Make in India projects to replace these aircraft will make sense," he said.



Tejas would meet our requirements: Indian Air Force chief | Business Standard News

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Mrc

kurup said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/631722442235379712




I am afraid this is a photo shop....40 years of development and indian have come out with a photoshop....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Beta-Fighter

Mrc said:


> I am afraid this is a photo shop....40 years of development and indian have come out with a photoshop....


India is not china or Pak ... which everything keep so much confidential that everyone knows. lol


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## knight11

Mrc said:


> I am afraid this is a photo shop....40 years of development and indian have come out with a photoshop....


Its better to keep your mouth shut if don't know anything about it.


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## sathya

Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | idrw.org


----------



## halupridol

sathya said:


> Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | idrw.org


better to look for some other options,,,,


----------



## sathya

halupridol said:


> better to look for some other options,,,,




Our dhruv has improved from block 1 to 4 , similarly LCA also will definitely improve, but first let's plan it's induction.
Just like Pakistan let's buy 50 mk1, 50 mk1a, next let's move to mk2.

Infact because of late nose cone and rufuel probe, we can even have 20 mk1 + 80 mk1a


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## rockstarIN

^^the major problem with MK1 will be range. IAF wants a jet who can have enough range to cross the border and do its part. In short, it should have enough fuel in it to face J-10 across the himalayan border. Otherwise it will be just the replace of Mig-21, a interceptor+CAS jet. IAF wants all its assets to have legs to fight other side of the border.


----------



## halupridol

sathya said:


> Our dhruv has improved from block 1 to 4 , similarly LCA also will definitely improve, but first let's plan it's induction.
> Just like Pakistan let's buy 50 mk1, 50 mk1a, next let's move to mk2.
> 
> Infact because of late nose cone and rufuel probe, we can even have 20 mk1 + 80 mk1a


yes wait till eternity,,


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## sathya

halupridol said:


> yes wait till eternity,,




Dude I will, after all I started reading forums because of tejas .

Reading about it gives me a sense of happiness 



rockstarIN said:


> ^^the major problem with MK1 will be range. IAF wants a jet who can have enough range to cross the border and do its part. In short, it should have enough fuel in it to face J-10 across the himalayan border. Otherwise it will be just the replace of Mig-21, a interceptor+CAS jet. IAF wants all its assets to have legs to fight other side of the border.



Yes atleast have 100 aircraft as just interceptor, replacing old mig 21,

Pilots can learn, tactics can be formulated , short comings can be addressed.

Later on when mk2 arrives, we can use 100 mk1 as trainers, reserves or move it to some other place where range doesn't matter.


----------



## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> Dude I will, after all I started reading forums because of tejas .
> 
> Reading about it gives me a sense of happiness
> 
> 
> 
> Yes atleast have 100 aircraft as just interceptor, replacing old mig 21,
> 
> Pilots can learn, tactics can be formulated , short comings can be addressed.
> 
> Later on when mk2 arrives, we can use 100 mk1 as trainers, reserves or move it to some other place where range doesn't matter.


IAF have to agree!


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## mad_max

rockstarIN said:


> IAF have to agree!


Good job then risking your pilots life in actual combat using this worthless aircraft.


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## W@rwolf

mad_max said:


> Good job then *risking your pilots life* in actual combat using this *worthless aircraft*.



Zero crashes during 3000+ hours of intense testing should speak for itself. 
Also Tejas Mk-1 has already surpassed most of the performance parameters of the Mig-21s. Remember when they took on the F-15 during Cope India? So think before calling them "worthless" !!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rockstarIN

mad_max said:


> Good job then risking your pilots life in actual combat using this worthless aircraft.


WHICH one, LCA or Mig-21?


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## mad_max

rockstarIN said:


> WHICH one, LCA or Mig-21?


LCA , Mig 21 is still far better than your paper plane , it would be wise to shut down this project setting sentiments aside and invest money in F16IN or F18 Super hornet


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## rockstarIN

mad_max said:


> LCA , Mig 21 is still far better than your paper plane , it would be wise to shut down this project setting sentiments aside and invest money in F16IN or F18 Super hornet



Do not advertise your string fighters, we do not need it, sell it to some small nations.

Out IAF so far happy about the 'paper plane', only delay frustrate them.


----------



## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633965106087366656

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633965253177446402

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633965489094430720

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633966032495841283

Reactions: Like Like:
5


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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633966357973889024

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633966672722857984

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/633966875190259712

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Abingdonboy



Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


>




Nice video overall.. !


----------



## Beta-Fighter

mad_max said:


> LCA , Mig 21 is still far better than your paper plane , it would be wise to shut down this project setting sentiments aside and invest money in F16IN or F18 Super hornet


F-16 which failed in trails?


----------



## soldier of Putin

looks like no SP-2 this year bummer

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## ZooZoo

sathya said:


> Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | idrw.org





sathya said:


> Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | idrw.org





sathya said:


> Our dhruv has improved from block 1 to 4 , similarly LCA also will definitely improve, but first let's plan it's induction.
> Just like Pakistan let's buy 50 mk1, 50 mk1a, next let's move to mk2.
> 
> Infact because of late nose cone and rufuel probe, we can even have 20 mk1 + 80 mk1a




Till LCA-MKI *SP-1 to SP-40* will be delivered , MKII will be availble. No need to panic... It will take 3-4 years to deliever these 40 planes...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## monitor

Home ADVERTISE ABOUT READ THIS! CONTACT ▼


























*Tuesday, August 04, 2015*



And here's some official detail on timelines on the LCA Tejas Mk.2 fresh from Parliament, confirming Livefist reports on operational clearance nowhere before 2022. Here's Minister of Defence Manohar Parrikar's full statement in Parliament today on the LCA Mk.2:

_The project for design and development of Light combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs.2431.55 Crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018. However, because of delay in finalisation of Engine Contract, the project could start only in December 2013. As a result, maiden flight of first Prototype and Operational Clearance are likely to be completed by December 2019 and December 2022, respectively. There after induction.
Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bengaluru is the Nodal Agency for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II. ADA has not entered into any collaboration with European Aircraft Manufacturers who had participated in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tenders for development of Tejas Mk-II. However, ADA may like to avail consultancy from some of them.
Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II would be an improved version of LCA Mk-I. Some of the new systems / technologies, like Active Electrically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite, On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), Upgraded Avionics, etc. are to be included in LCA Tejas Mk-II to make the aircraft more contemporary. Technologies, systems engineering and experience gained during development of LCA Tejas Mk-II would benefit the development of Fifth Generation Aircraft indigenously._

Shiv Aroor at 6:26 PM
vishwa karma10:04 PM
Well it's the never ending usual story from ADA, HAL & GE.

Well what happened to HSTDV-2 at TsAGI in Dec 2014 ? 

HSTDV-2 was supposed to undergo testing in hypersonic wind tunnel at TsAGI. It seems Finance mantri Arun Jaitley & Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar came under crumbling pressure from external entity, the so called "XYYYZZ Nation" which ordered them to stop financing the HSTDV-2 project. Obviously "XYYYZZZ Nation" doesn't want INDIA to succeed in Hypersonic vehicle TD. 

It seems which ever Party comes to power in Delhi, GOI officially remains to be a proxy for some other so called "XYYYZZZ Nation" to execute their plans on us.

Also there seems to be a moratorium on developing an ICBM, MIRV & MARV. No wonder this moratorium is also imposed by "XYYZZZ Nation". INDIA is the most populous democracy we should not shake our heads & oblige to whatever others say. We have our own brains & we can make our own decision. 

Please spread the word on HSTDV-2. Oherwise it will be a repeat of 1998 Azad Kashmir-2 like situation & NPT like treaty will follow on banning Hypersonic testing. Such treaty is already under formulation. Well DRDO & ISRO need to synergize their work on developing HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). INDIA needs to act fast on HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). Otherwise Hypersonic testing ban & sanctions will be looming over us. 

#SaveHSTDV-2 Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!!! Satyamev Jayate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vishwa karma10:04 PM
Well it's the never ending usual story from ADA, HAL & GE.

Well what happened to HSTDV-2 at TsAGI in Dec 2014 ? 

HSTDV-2 was supposed to undergo testing in hypersonic wind tunnel at TsAGI. It seems Finance mantri Arun Jaitley & Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar came under crumbling pressure from external entity, the so called "XYYYZZ Nation" which ordered them to stop financing the HSTDV-2 project. Obviously "XYYYZZZ Nation" doesn't want INDIA to succeed in Hypersonic vehicle TD. 

It seems which ever Party comes to power in Delhi, GOI officially remains to be a proxy for some other so called "XYYYZZZ Nation" to execute their plans on us.

Also there seems to be a moratorium on developing an ICBM, MIRV & MARV. No wonder this moratorium is also imposed by "XYYZZZ Nation". INDIA is the most populous democracy we should not shake our heads & oblige to whatever others say. We have our own brains & we can make our own decision. 

Please spread the word on HSTDV-2. Oherwise it will be a repeat of 1998 Azad Kashmir-2 like situation & NPT like treaty will follow on banning Hypersonic testing. Such treaty is already under formulation. Well DRDO & ISRO need to synergize their work on developing HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). INDIA needs to act fast on HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). Otherwise Hypersonic testing ban & sanctions will be looming over us. 

#SaveHSTDV-2 Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!!! Satyamev Jayate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10:23 AM
Is it just me or is the Mk II timeline seems too long. When is the first flight scheduled. Wonder if any could provide guessestimates for the time required for each of the major upgrades/ changes planned for the Mk II vis a vi the Mk I

9:24 AM
It will Fly in 2021 have no doubt on it. Others may say what they want but it will happen.

12:39 AM
It should be mistaken for MKI clearance date not MKII.

3:59 PM
2022 ??? At this rate no future
Go in for Mak in India of JAS 39 Gripen fighter from SAAB-Scania of Sweden

4:19 PM
ADA must go out transparently and aggressively and approach global aerospace companies for consultancy to get the aircraft ready for service. In the past ADA expected that global firms will knock on their doors and fall over each other to participate. ADA must bite the bullet, keep its nationalistic egos aside and move forward without wasting further money of the tax payer.

9:41 PM
We need to learn from china. 
Keep making the LCA & keep improving them on feedback. Let there be upgrades every 3-5 years. Let airforce keep buying 10-12 every year. Keep upgrading the old ones. 
If we had done this on marut, we never would need to import jaguars & MiG27. 
Look at where ALH us, so many variants and there is now a more powerful engine ! Now let HAL setup repairs & spares depots in all zones. Improve the availability. 
Do same with Arjun. Setup repair and spares depot s in the north , west etc.improve availability, study failures, improve parts ! 
If we find it heavy, big etc produce Arjun turrent with t-72 chassis. 

There is no substitute for local design and production. We should not keep importing.

11:27 AM
JF 17 is now exported by Pakistan to many countries where as even with US engine HAL, NAL & DRDO Tejas is not ready inspite of Air Force support to the program 








to IAS officers & MoD babu's of India - Kitna khaoge bhai ?? ab to pakistan bhhi aage nikal gaya is mamle mein

3:56 PM
I am willing to put my money on the dates being met by ADA. Looks like the GoI has asked DRDO to give realistic time frame and DRDO have given themselves a comfortable timeframe. I am looking forward to seeing the first timeline being comfortably met by ADA / HAL. The second timeline also is reasonable but IAF in its usual fashion, is likely to come up with fresh requirements towards the end of the project.




›
Home
View web version

Blogger.


----------



## Al-Taïr

Krate M said:


> @Oscar let the plane be inducted, once the plane starts ops at a full fledged pace and then only can the life cycle cost be calculated.


Shouldn't it b estimated before induction, and shouldn't IA guys consider it as a major factor in their feasibility calculations? And have some least success criterion..


----------



## Optimos Prime IA

monitor said:


> Home ADVERTISE ABOUT READ THIS! CONTACT ▼
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tuesday, August 04, 2015*
> 
> 
> 
> And here's some official detail on timelines on the LCA Tejas Mk.2 fresh from Parliament, confirming Livefist reports on operational clearance nowhere before 2022. Here's Minister of Defence Manohar Parrikar's full statement in Parliament today on the LCA Mk.2:
> 
> _The project for design and development of Light combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs.2431.55 Crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018. However, because of delay in finalisation of Engine Contract, the project could start only in December 2013. As a result, maiden flight of first Prototype and Operational Clearance are likely to be completed by December 2019 and December 2022, respectively. There after induction.
> Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bengaluru is the Nodal Agency for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II. ADA has not entered into any collaboration with European Aircraft Manufacturers who had participated in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tenders for development of Tejas Mk-II. However, ADA may like to avail consultancy from some of them.
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II would be an improved version of LCA Mk-I. Some of the new systems / technologies, like Active Electrically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite, On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), Upgraded Avionics, etc. are to be included in LCA Tejas Mk-II to make the aircraft more contemporary. Technologies, systems engineering and experience gained during development of LCA Tejas Mk-II would benefit the development of Fifth Generation Aircraft indigenously._
> 
> Shiv Aroor at 6:26 PM
> vishwa karma10:04 PM
> Well it's the never ending usual story from ADA, HAL & GE.
> 
> Well what happened to HSTDV-2 at TsAGI in Dec 2014 ?
> 
> HSTDV-2 was supposed to undergo testing in hypersonic wind tunnel at TsAGI. It seems Finance mantri Arun Jaitley & Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar came under crumbling pressure from external entity, the so called "XYYYZZ Nation" which ordered them to stop financing the HSTDV-2 project. Obviously "XYYYZZZ Nation" doesn't want INDIA to succeed in Hypersonic vehicle TD.
> 
> It seems which ever Party comes to power in Delhi, GOI officially remains to be a proxy for some other so called "XYYYZZZ Nation" to execute their plans on us.
> 
> Also there seems to be a moratorium on developing an ICBM, MIRV & MARV. No wonder this moratorium is also imposed by "XYYZZZ Nation". INDIA is the most populous democracy we should not shake our heads & oblige to whatever others say. We have our own brains & we can make our own decision.
> 
> Please spread the word on HSTDV-2. Oherwise it will be a repeat of 1998 ***-2 like situation & NPT like treaty will follow on banning Hypersonic testing. Such treaty is already under formulation. Well DRDO & ISRO need to synergize their work on developing HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). INDIA needs to act fast on HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). Otherwise Hypersonic testing ban & sanctions will be looming over us.
> 
> #SaveHSTDV-2 Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!!! Satyamev Jayate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> vishwa karma10:04 PM
> Well it's the never ending usual story from ADA, HAL & GE.
> 
> Well what happened to HSTDV-2 at TsAGI in Dec 2014 ?
> 
> HSTDV-2 was supposed to undergo testing in hypersonic wind tunnel at TsAGI. It seems Finance mantri Arun Jaitley & Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar came under crumbling pressure from external entity, the so called "XYYYZZ Nation" which ordered them to stop financing the HSTDV-2 project. Obviously "XYYYZZZ Nation" doesn't want INDIA to succeed in Hypersonic vehicle TD.
> 
> It seems which ever Party comes to power in Delhi, GOI officially remains to be a proxy for some other so called "XYYYZZZ Nation" to execute their plans on us.
> 
> Also there seems to be a moratorium on developing an ICBM, MIRV & MARV. No wonder this moratorium is also imposed by "XYYZZZ Nation". INDIA is the most populous democracy we should not shake our heads & oblige to whatever others say. We have our own brains & we can make our own decision.
> 
> Please spread the word on HSTDV-2. Oherwise it will be a repeat of 1998 ***-2 like situation & NPT like treaty will follow on banning Hypersonic testing. Such treaty is already under formulation. Well DRDO & ISRO need to synergize their work on developing HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). INDIA needs to act fast on HSTDV & AVATAR (RLV). Otherwise Hypersonic testing ban & sanctions will be looming over us.
> 
> #SaveHSTDV-2 Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!!! Satyamev Jayate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 10:23 AM
> Is it just me or is the Mk II timeline seems too long. When is the first flight scheduled. Wonder if any could provide guessestimates for the time required for each of the major upgrades/ changes planned for the Mk II vis a vi the Mk I
> 
> 9:24 AM
> It will Fly in 2021 have no doubt on it. Others may say what they want but it will happen.
> 
> 12:39 AM
> It should be mistaken for MKI clearance date not MKII.
> 
> 3:59 PM
> 2022 ??? At this rate no future
> Go in for Mak in India of JAS 39 Gripen fighter from SAAB-Scania of Sweden
> 
> 4:19 PM
> ADA must go out transparently and aggressively and approach global aerospace companies for consultancy to get the aircraft ready for service. In the past ADA expected that global firms will knock on their doors and fall over each other to participate. ADA must bite the bullet, keep its nationalistic egos aside and move forward without wasting further money of the tax payer.
> 
> 9:41 PM
> We need to learn from china.
> Keep making the LCA & keep improving them on feedback. Let there be upgrades every 3-5 years. Let airforce keep buying 10-12 every year. Keep upgrading the old ones.
> If we had done this on marut, we never would need to import jaguars & MiG27.
> Look at where ALH us, so many variants and there is now a more powerful engine ! Now let HAL setup repairs & spares depots in all zones. Improve the availability.
> Do same with Arjun. Setup repair and spares depot s in the north , west etc.improve availability, study failures, improve parts !
> If we find it heavy, big etc produce Arjun turrent with t-72 chassis.
> 
> There is no substitute for local design and production. We should not keep importing.
> 
> 11:27 AM
> JF 17 is now exported by Pakistan to many countries where as even with US engine HAL, NAL & DRDO Tejas is not ready inspite of Air Force support to the program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to IAS officers & MoD babu's of India - Kitna khaoge bhai ?? ab to pakistan bhhi aage nikal gaya is mamle mein
> 
> 3:56 PM
> I am willing to put my money on the dates being met by ADA. Looks like the GoI has asked DRDO to give realistic time frame and DRDO have given themselves a comfortable timeframe. I am looking forward to seeing the first timeline being comfortably met by ADA / HAL. The second timeline also is reasonable but IAF in its usual fashion, is likely to come up with fresh requirements towards the end of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ›
> Home
> View web version
> 
> Blogger.



Wt the fuk is this ?


----------



## monitor

Optimos Prime IA said:


> Wt the fuk is this ?


go to his site livefist


----------



## Beta-Fighter

monitor said:


> go to his site livefist


every ones knows this site and news too old....... u dont know to put entire site , just copy text...


----------



## Optimos Prime IA

monitor said:


> go to his site livefist



I know his site why you posting it on tejas thread ? Its off topic .


----------



## Perpendicular

HAL seeks to lighten LCA burden | idrw.org


----------



## Hindustani78

Karnataka Bengaluru 23/08/2015 . T. Suvarna Raju&#13;Chairman , HAL in Bengaluru on 23nd August 2015 . . Photo Bhagya Prakash K
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd seeks to lighten LCA burden - The Hindu

*Industry to be roped in to make larger chunks of fighter plane.*

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which manufactures the Light Combat Aircraft for the Air Force, plans to offload to industry larger chunks of the fighter plane to produce than is being done now.

It is working *on a process to rope in eight to 12 large industry partners as tier-1 or tier-2 suppliers of bigger ‘modules’ or structures, according to HAL Chairman and Managing Director T. Suvarna Raju*. He said an industry partner may gear up to the task over a couple of years.

In a scene where aircraft supplies have been notoriously delayed for various reasons, *the strategy is seen to supplement HAL’s capacity, increase production and delivery rates to the IAF.*

Mr. Raju, who took over early this year, told _The Hindu _in a recent interaction that *it would allow the public sector Defence company to focus on military aviation projects of the future – the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, the civil passenger plane and unmanned air vehicles.* “*We are trying to get [certain] modules of the LCA prepared by the private industry*. *We have given RFIs [the first step of request for information] to those who are interested in being a defence vendor. An RFQ [request for quotation] will follow.*

*“We have interacted with a few on the fuselage, which gets done in four parts — the front, centre, rear and the wings. *We have the* jigs and fixtures for them to make, to begin with. They can make on their own later,”* Mr. Raju said.* The helicopter gear box with its many components was another example.*

Mr. Raju said this was* its new approach of producing the LCA. It was also ready to look for any Indian vendor to make its other product, the multi-purpose ALH, under licence.*

*Around 2,600 small and medium enterprises are registered with it. *HAL was explicitly spelling out the required numbers. *“So far, aircraft components are being made by industry. Now we would like them to be aggregators. *We are looking *at a minimum of 100 numbers in LCA; 200 in LCH; 200 Light Utility [or observation] Helicopters; and another 150 Advanced Light Helicopters.”*

HAL would handhold the industry partners until they were confident.

*Industry ecosystem*
It would still be the integrator of the warplane, hold the intellectual property rights and maintain the aircraft over the next 40 or so years of their service. Such an industry ecosystem, *he said, would eventually take part in military production and benefit from many offsets that would come from original foreign hardware manufacturers.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## monitor

*Will Government take Airbus offer on Tejas MK-II?*
Published September 5, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)








European Aerospace major Airbus at Paris Air Show earlier this year offered to assist India in Production of Tejas MK-II aircrafts in India with an Indian Private player. India has responded positively and has held a preliminary rounds of dicussions on the offer.

Sources in MoD have told idrw.org that MOD is now ‘seriously’ examining to establish a private-public partnership (PPP) to fast-track setting up of a manufacturing base for Mk-2 variant in order to bolster the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) declining fighter fleet.

Public sector Company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which enjoys complete Monopoly when it comes to production of fighter jets in India, have been severely criticised by Airforce over the years over constant delays in delivery schedules and poor quality of many systems made by HAL .

Airbus with an Indian partner (Mahindra) are interested in creating a Production line for Tejas MK-2 when the aircraft will be ready by 2021 to enter production. Airbus along with Indian partner wants to be involved with the program from the first flight of MK-2 since it will allow them time to set up the supply chain for the aircraft.

In 2013 Swedish company Saab had submitted a proposal for partnering on designing the Mark II and establishing a manufacturing line for the fighter, which was rejected by Indian MOD and Indian air force.

Tejas MK-II variant which will incorporate more powerful GE F414 engine along with aerodynamic and avionics improvements required to meet ASR of IAF, will also address shortcomings in the MK-1 variant of the fighter jet.

Posted in Exclusive, India

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/640047351445368832


----------



## rockstarIN

sudhir007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/640047351445368832


MKi1 or MK 2?


----------



## sudhir007

rockstarIN said:


> MKi1 or MK 2?


also dnt understand check one more


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/640046635309924352


----------



## SajeevJino

rockstarIN said:


> MKi1 or MK 2?



lol ..It means Entered Serial Production


----------



## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
10


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## ZooZoo

rockstarIN said:


> MKi1 or MK 2?




It means, there won't be any change in Serial production variant of MK-1.. With this configuration MK-1 Wil be build..

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## SOHEIL

SpArK said:


>

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## SpArK

_HAL's new Fuel Slushing Hangar set up to carry out fuel operations on LCA_​

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## Ind4Ever



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## Mrc

Ind4Ever said:


> View attachment 257095




I smell a bollywood movie ....


----------



## SR-91

Ind4Ever said:


> View attachment 257095





Good job buddy

You are about to witness unwanted chinese cheerleaders

It will be like, extinguishing a lit cigarette in horses arse ......but its the *second* horse ........thats on fire


----------



## Hurter

Mrc said:


> I smell a bollywood movie ....



It's Tollywood... Mallu action



knight11 said:


> Its better to keep your mouth shut if don't know anything about it.



Photoshop hai bhai


----------



## SR-91

Bratva said:


> Some strong vedic science and physics at work here




No, 

Just a DELTA wing plane with GE F404 engine.

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## ultron

SP-2 this year?


----------



## SR-91

SpArK said:


>







*LCA DEVISH ............................  




The "Forth"*

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## Ind4Ever

Bratva said:


> Some strong vedic science and physics at work here


 End of the day Tejas is a reality and set for mass production !!!


----------



## GURU DUTT

SR-91 said:


> No,
> 
> Just a DELTA wing plane with GE F404 engine.


so what it dose not have DSI

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## SR-91

17 flights away from 3000 flights
No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas :

2015

*·2983rd flight on 25 Aug*

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-257

LSP5: 290

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 110

LSP2: 314

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 147

NP1: 43

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 34

NP2: 10









·2977th flight on 30 July

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-257

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 110

LSP2: 314

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 146

NP1: 43

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 34

NP2: 10









·2967th flight on 27 June 

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-257

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 110

LSP2: 311

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 146

NP1: 43

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 27

NP2: 10









·2952nd flight on 30 May

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-255

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 108

LSP2: 310

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 144

NP1: 43

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 19

NP2: 10









·2924th flight on 30 Apr

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-255

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 100

LSP2: 305

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 139

NP1: 38

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 16

NP2: 08









·2914th flight on 14 Mar

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-255

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 100

LSP2: 301

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 139

NP1: 38

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 13

NP2: 05









· 2908th flight on 24 Feb

TD1 : 233

PV1: 245

PV3: 387

LSP1: 74

LSP3-254

LSP5: 285

TD2 : 305

PV2: 222

PV5: 100

LSP2: 299

LSP4: 167

LSP7: 139

NP1: 38

LSP8 : 145

PV6: 10

NP2: 05

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## sathya

SR-91 said:


> 17 flights away from 3000 flights
> No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas :
> 
> 2015
> 
> *·2983rd flight on 25 Aug*
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-257
> 
> LSP5: 290
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 110
> 
> LSP2: 314
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 147
> 
> NP1: 43
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 34
> 
> NP2: 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2977th flight on 30 July
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-257
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 110
> 
> LSP2: 314
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 146
> 
> NP1: 43
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 34
> 
> NP2: 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2967th flight on 27 June
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-257
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 110
> 
> LSP2: 311
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 146
> 
> NP1: 43
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 27
> 
> NP2: 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2952nd flight on 30 May
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 108
> 
> LSP2: 310
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 144
> 
> NP1: 43
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 19
> 
> NP2: 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2924th flight on 30 Apr
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 305
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 16
> 
> NP2: 08
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·2914th flight on 14 Mar
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-255
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 301
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 13
> 
> NP2: 05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> · 2908th flight on 24 Feb
> 
> TD1 : 233
> 
> PV1: 245
> 
> PV3: 387
> 
> LSP1: 74
> 
> LSP3-254
> 
> LSP5: 285
> 
> TD2 : 305
> 
> PV2: 222
> 
> PV5: 100
> 
> LSP2: 299
> 
> LSP4: 167
> 
> LSP7: 139
> 
> NP1: 38
> 
> LSP8 : 145
> 
> PV6: 10
> 
> NP2: 05




So hardly 8 flights last month, 

No of flights this September will let us know the status of nose cone ..


----------



## ultron

No SP-2 this year?


----------



## sathya

ultron said:


> No SP-2 this year?



Even though you trolling innocently,

SP 2 is slatted to fly this month.

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## ultron

sathya said:


> SP 2 is slatted to fly this month.




I hold you accountable.


----------



## sathya

ultron said:


> I hold you accountable.




Ok give me extra 15 days..
I have a feeling it will be done.


----------



## Hindustani78

Aerial platforms will affect outcome in war and peace: Arup Raha, Air Force Chief - The Economic Times
By PTI | 19 Sep, 2015, 11.12PM IST 

Three squadrons of the aging MiG 21 and MiG 27 fighter jets are set to be phased out this year. 

Senior Air Force officials are hopeful that the government will quickly wrap up the ongoing negotiations for 36 Rafale jets with France even as they await the Mark 2 version of the indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas.


----------



## HariPrasad

Canopy redesign of Tejas has substantially reduced the drag which shall result into 20% hike in trans-sonic acceleration and 2% hike in highest speed at sea level. Slashing of 800 KG weight is also planned. This to gather shall result into a huge improvement in MK1 Performance itself. Along with weight slash , Aerodynamic improvement and AESA, Mk1 itself shall be a very lethal fighter.

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## Srinivas

pramod965 said:


> What happened to SP2



It is handed over to IAF !!


----------



## Robinhood Pandey

Srinivas said:


> It is handed over to IAF !!



Seriously ?

When ?

Any pics ?


----------



## Srinivas

@pramod965 


Robinhood Pandey said:


> Seriously ?
> 
> When ?
> 
> Any pics ?



read it in BR forum

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## scientien

Need link of tejas firing r73 missile with helmet view please.


----------



## ramu

Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft

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## Water Car Engineer

ramu said:


> Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft




Boost to the Tejas program!!

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## ultron

No SP-2? Figures.


----------



## Abingdonboy

scientien said:


> Need link of tejas firing r73 missile with helmet view please.







1.44-

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## PARIKRAMA

*

Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  1h1 hour ago
*Uttam AESA is expected to be ready for airborne testing soon. Ground based testing has delivered encouraging results.
*



*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  1h1 hour ago
*There'll be no IOC/ FOC campaign per se for the Mk-1A. The improvements will be made concurrently with the production process.*




*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  2h2 hours ago
*To attain that 400 figure a parallel line in the private sector is a must. This is being resisted by you know who.*



*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  2h2 hours ago
*IAF requirement for LCAs of different configurations is 400. This is the number people are talking about now.
*






*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  2h2 hours ago
*All stakeholders are onboard with the Mk-1A configuration. Broad improvements: Uttam AESA, maintainability improvements, MAWS, DFCC Mk-2 etc*

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## PARIKRAMA

Tejas line in HAL
i see 3 birds!!!!
http://s12.postimg.org/72frssh8d/AAA_LCA.jpg

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## skynet

PARIKRAMA said:


> Tejas line in HAL
> i see 3 birds!!!!
> http://s12.postimg.org/72frssh8d/AAA_LCA.jpg


Old pic

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## sathya

Uttam AESA will be air tested in Dornier?


----------



## PakEye

IRAN 1802 said:


> Beautiful


*DREAM !!!*


----------



## knight11

sathya said:


> Uttam AESA will be air tested in Dornier?


The test bed of Dornier Do plane cannot be used for the flight certification because its not a supersonic test bed. It can only be used for testing the avionics for the DRDO uavs



pakeye said:


> *DREAM !!!*


*Burning Smelling *** !!! look behind your *** is on fire !!!*

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## PakEye

knight11 said:


> Burning Smelling *** !!! look behind your *** is on fire *!!!*


mera sundar sapna tooooooooooooooooooot gayaa !!!


----------



## gslv mk3

pakeye said:


> *DREAM !!!*



stop crying

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## Hulk

HariPrasad said:


> Canopy redesign of Tejas has substantially reduced the drag which shall result into 20% hike in trans-sonic acceleration and 2% hike in highest speed at sea level. Slashing of 800 KG weight is also planned. This to gather shall result into a huge improvement in MK1 Performance itself. Along with weight slash , Aerodynamic improvement and AESA, Mk1 itself shall be a very lethal fighter.


Too good to hear, any links?

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## Water Car Engineer

Seriously, where is SP2? How many were HAL supposed to hand over this year? 4???


----------



## SR-91

Tejas Mark 1-A Program will lead revival of Indigenous Jet Engine efence Analyst | idrw.org



TOTAL money spent on KAVERI engine is little more than 2100 crore.


Govt plans to approve *Rs* *2652* crore for







Follow up KAVERI ENGINE *more than *80 kn.

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## HariPrasad

Hulk said:


> Too good to hear, any links?



Yes.

Pl find here with the link.

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdf...rsonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

The present supersonic wave drag reduction due to modified canopy has a huge impact on the performance of the aircraft. The wave drag reduction in the modified fighter is approximately 6% in supersonic region as compared to the base configuration which translates to a 20% improvement in transonic accelerations. Reduction in wave drag has improved the maximum level speeds of the modified fighter by 2%.

To sum up, following is the plan for MK1+

1) Aerodynamic improvement of 6% resulting in 20 % rise in trans-sonic acceleration and highest speed at sea level by 2%. 
2) Removal of 300 KG dead weight and reduction of total weight by 800 to 1000 KG resulting in improvement of T/W ratio by at least 15% .
3) New AESA rada,
4) New avionics,
5) More fuel due to readjustment of LRUs and liberation of more space.
6) Newly designed air intake.
7) More agility, More speed.
8) New EW suite.

In short MK1+ will meet all staff requirements in most of of the area and exceed in many area such as AESA and EW.

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## GORKHALI

HariPrasad said:


> Yes.
> 
> Pl find here with the link.
> 
> http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf
> 
> The present supersonic wave drag reduction due to modified canopy has a huge impact on the performance of the aircraft. The wave drag reduction in the modified fighter is approximately 6% in supersonic region as compared to the base configuration which translates to a 20% improvement in transonic accelerations. Reduction in wave drag has improved the maximum level speeds of the modified fighter by 2%.
> 
> To sum up, following is the plan for MK1+
> 
> 1) Aerodynamic improvement of 6% resulting in 20 % rise in trans-sonic acceleration and highest speed at sea level by 2%.
> 2) Removal of 300 KG dead weight and reduction of total weight by 800 to 1000 KG resulting in improvement of T/W ratio by at least 15% .
> 3) New AESA rada,
> 4) New avionics,
> 5) More fuel due to readjustment of LRUs and liberation of more space.
> 6) Newly designed air intake.
> 7) More agility, More speed.
> 8) New EW suite.
> 
> In short MK1+ will meet all staff requirements in most of of the area and exceed in many area such as AESA and EW.


Sounds great so Is this proposed by NAL or ADA ?


----------



## SR-91

pakeye said:


> mera sundar sapna tooooooooooooooooooot gayaa !!!








We broke ur sapnaaaaaaa


----------



## calmDown@all

Oscar said:


> Please continue all discussion from this thread here.
> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 689
> 
> Anyone have any numbers on projected life cycle cost of Tejas?








Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion) including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production of 08 aircraft per annum. This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.


LCA, Tejas has approximately 60% indigenous content. As a result, production cost as well as life cycle cost of LCA Tejas will be comparatively lower to that of any other comparable class of aircraft.

The breakup of LCA, Tejas and its Naval variants is as follows:

*Programme*

*Cost (Rs. in Crore)*

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-I

2188.00

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-II

5777.56

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-III

2431.55

LCA Navy Mk-1

1714.98

LCA Navy Mk-2

1921.11


----------



## vayuu1

calmDown@all said:


> Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion) including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production of 08 aircraft per annum. This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.
> 
> 
> LCA, Tejas has approximately 60% indigenous content. As a result, production cost as well as life cycle cost of LCA Tejas will be comparatively lower to that of any other comparable class of aircraft.
> 
> The breakup of LCA, Tejas and its Naval variants is as follows:
> 
> *Programme*
> 
> *Cost (Rs. in Crore)*
> 
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-I
> 
> 2188.00
> 
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-II
> 
> 5777.56
> 
> Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-III
> 
> 2431.55
> 
> LCA Navy Mk-1
> 
> 1714.98
> 
> LCA Navy Mk-2
> 
> 1921.11


I think there is a bit of problem in ur assessment, u have stated lca mk 2 to be about 5776 cr, while the stealthier version to be 2431 cr.


----------



## PakEye

SR-91 said:


> We broke ur sapnaaaaaaa


Yeeaaaaahhhh the Interpretation is JF17 thunder


----------



## HariPrasad

GORKHALI said:


> Sounds great so Is this proposed by NAL or ADA ?



The paper is published by ADA. 

Actually this was a part of optimization aerodynamics of MK2. Studies were carried on MK1 and this whooping 6% aerodynamic improvement found to be possible with Canopy redesign. This shall add to 20% improvement in Trans sonic acceleration. and 2% rise in highest speed at sea level along with the improvement in pitching stability characteristics. I think that now if engine integration and airintake redesign is taken care, MK1 in itself may emerge as a very potent fighter. I had read somewhere that Wing redesign is also planned. That will increase the strength of wing and reduce the weight as well. They are planning 800 to 1000 k G weight reduction which is a hike in 15% in T/W ratio. In all in all MK1+ shall emerge as a primer multiroll fighter and there is no doubt about that. There are some talks on single cheap guidance as well. This will reduce a lots of space to acomodate other stuff. 300 KG balancing weight shall be removed and landing gear will also be slimed .



Pl read this:

Conclusion The supersonic wave drag characteristics of a generic fighter aircraft was studied initially based on its cross sectional area distribution. Preliminary Sears-Haack shapes and equivalent body of revolution geometries indicated significant scope in wave drag reduction. The canopy region was identified for shape modification to reduce drag and various geometries were studied in RANS solver CFD++ constrained by seat & safety system, structural and manufacturing requirements to arrive at the best canopy shape. The final modified canopy gave 6% reduction in supersonic wave drag which translated to 20% improvement in transonic accelerations and 2% improvement in maximum level speeds. The pitching stability characteristics have improved in the modified fighter which results in less trim drag. The directional stability characteristics of the modified configuration has deteriorated resulting in lower cross over alpha which is proposed to be overcome by closed loop feedback control. This modified geometry also benefits with additional space in the aircraft behind the pilot that can be used to appropriately accommodate more internal fuel. Acknowledgement Preliminary area rule

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

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## GURU DUTT

HariPrasad said:


> Actually this was a part of optimization aerodynamics of MK2. Studies were carried on MK1 and this whooping 6% aerodynamic improvement found to be possible with Canopy redesign. This shall add to 20% improvement in Trans sonic acceleration. and 2% rise in highest speed at sea level along with the improvement in pitching stability characteristics. I think that now if engine integration and airintake redesign is taken care, MK1 in itself may emerge as a very potent fighter. I had read somewhere that Wing redesign is also planned. That will increase the strength of wing and reduce the weight as well. They are planning 800 to 1000 k G weight reduction which is a hike in 15% in T/W ratio. In all in all MK1+ shall emerge as a primer multiroll fighter and there is no doubt about that. There are some talks on single cheap guidance as well. This will reduce a lots of space to acomodate other stuff. 300 KG balancing weight shall be removed and landing gear will also be slimed .
> 
> 
> 
> Pl read this:
> 
> Conclusion The supersonic wave drag characteristics of a generic fighter aircraft was studied initially based on its cross sectional area distribution. Preliminary Sears-Haack shapes and equivalent body of revolution geometries indicated significant scope in wave drag reduction. The canopy region was identified for shape modification to reduce drag and various geometries were studied in RANS solver CFD++ constrained by seat & safety system, structural and manufacturing requirements to arrive at the best canopy shape. The final modified canopy gave 6% reduction in supersonic wave drag which translated to 20% improvement in transonic accelerations and 2% improvement in maximum level speeds. The pitching stability characteristics have improved in the modified fighter which results in less trim drag. The directional stability characteristics of the modified configuration has deteriorated resulting in lower cross over alpha which is proposed to be overcome by closed loop feedback control. This modified geometry also benefits with additional space in the aircraft behind the pilot that can be used to appropriately accommodate more internal fuel. Acknowledgement Preliminary area rule
> 
> http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf


thats great so will LCA also get DSI after its new intake design


----------



## HariPrasad

GURU DUTT said:


> thats great so will LCA also get DSI after its new intake design




No DSI is a distance dream. It is an alien technology which only highly advance countries may have.

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## GURU DUTT

HariPrasad said:


> No DSI is a distance dream. It is an alien technology which only highly advance countries may have.


well we should ask US for it then

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## HariPrasad

By the time Mk1+ comes in, India and Israel would have developed a highly potent version of EW. Work is there in fast track. AOA would have passed 30* by than at least. All building blocks to make Tejas a very potent fighter are on. It is possible to surpass Grippen C with Tejas MK1+.



GURU DUTT said:


> well we should ask US for it then



No US is not that Advance. US will take another 100 years to develop DSI.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## calmDown@all

vayuu1 said:


> I think there is a bit of problem in ur assessment, u have stated lca mk 2 to be about 5776 cr, while the stealthier version to be 2431 cr.




well yeah i thik so because its an old written reply in rajya sabha by a.k. antony that makes sence if i am wrong about it


----------



## Ankit Kumar 001

Improvements are ok.

But where are Tejas Serial Production aircrafts in IOC2 condition which HAL promised to deliver ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Hulk

HariPrasad said:


> Yes.
> 
> Pl find here with the link.
> 
> http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf
> 
> The present supersonic wave drag reduction due to modified canopy has a huge impact on the performance of the aircraft. The wave drag reduction in the modified fighter is approximately 6% in supersonic region as compared to the base configuration which translates to a 20% improvement in transonic accelerations. Reduction in wave drag has improved the maximum level speeds of the modified fighter by 2%.
> 
> To sum up, following is the plan for MK1+
> 
> 1) Aerodynamic improvement of 6% resulting in 20 % rise in trans-sonic acceleration and highest speed at sea level by 2%.
> 2) Removal of 300 KG dead weight and reduction of total weight by 800 to 1000 KG resulting in improvement of T/W ratio by at least 15% .
> 3) New AESA rada,
> 4) New avionics,
> 5) More fuel due to readjustment of LRUs and liberation of more space.
> 6) Newly designed air intake.
> 7) More agility, More speed.
> 8) New EW suite.
> 
> In short MK1+ will meet all staff requirements in most of of the area and exceed in many area such as AESA and EW.


Again too good.



HariPrasad said:


> By the time Mk1+ comes in, India and Israel would have developed a highly potent version of EW. Work is there in fast track. AOA would have passed 30* by than at least. All building blocks to make Tejas a very potent fighter are on. It is possible to surpass Grippen C with Tejas MK1+.
> 
> 
> 
> No US is not that Advance. US will take another 100 years to develop DSI.


Are you in twitter?


----------



## HariPrasad

Hulk said:


> Again too good.
> 
> 
> Are you in twitter?


 Thanks,

I am on twiter but I forget the password. I will let you know when I open a new accounts.


----------



## Hulk

HariPrasad said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I am on twiter but I forget the password. I will let you know when I open a new accounts.


come on man, we need people like you on twitter.


----------



## HariPrasad

Hulk said:


> come on man, we need people like you on twitter.




Ok


----------



## sathya

Home-built Tejas to make up for critical shortage of fighter jets | idrw.org

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## Agent_47

We must give modi govt credit for making IAF come around with the LCA mk1 order.
They really choked IAF with only immediate rafales and improved LCA to ordering 120 planes.
import lobby in india is having a hard time i must say.  #MakeinIndia

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## ultron

pramod965 said:


> SP2, where is SP2? and any news/progress about 3,4,5.....?




This is no SP-2, at least not this year.


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## knight11

SR-91 said:


> Tejas Mark 1-A Program will lead revival of Indigenous Jet Engine efence Analyst | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> TOTAL money spent on KAVERI engine is little more than 2100 crore.
> 
> 
> Govt plans to approve *Rs* *2652* crore for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Follow up KAVERI ENGINE *more than *80 kn.



These irdw peoples are insane and don't know what they hear,what they takes that out from what they hear, and what they end up posting to the people. LCA mk 1a ? there is no need for it for IAF or IN airforce; but ADA/HAL can develop them for the personal flying for their staff and their families for joy ride.

Kaveri project have ended and have given India the knowledge of engine know how and various technologies which will be usefull in the future engine project started from the scrap again and till metallurgical knowledge comes to a certain level there is no use other than the UAV like AURA and there is no future in the future tejas mk2 or in AMCA either,



HariPrasad said:


> No DSI is a distance dream. It is an alien technology which only highly advance countries may have.



When did the DSI capable ARJUN MK#3 is going to be launched.


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## Water Car Engineer

knight11 said:


> These irdw peoples are insane and don't know what they hear,what they takes that out from what they hear, and what they end up posting to the people. LCA mk 1a ? there is no need for it for IAF or IN airforce; but ADA/HAL can develop them for the personal flying for their staff and their families for joy ride.
> 
> Kaveri project have ended and have given India the knowledge of engine know how and various technologies which will be usefull in the future engine project started from the scrap again and till metallurgical knowledge comes to a certain level there is no use other .




IRDW sucks, but its accurate. It's been split, one for advanced uavs, other around 90kn.

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## Sheikh Hussain

*The LCA Tejas Needs To See Squadron Service NOW*






The *LCA Tejas* needs to see squadron service _now_. Goalposts, mission objectives, time-lines, costs and specifications have, over 32 years, melded into an amorphous, self-defeating paradox. One that has served no national interest, certainly not that of the Indian Air Force.

Let's be clear. This cannot be about forcing the Indian Air Force to accept a fighter plane. A Reuters report that's been reproduced across media today describes the LCA as obsolete and a potential burden on a reluctant IAF. Several others quote anonymous sources or retired officers as banging their fists on their tables and saying the Tejas is one big chunky albatross the air force needs least. One that will forever stall its planning and acquisition impetus.

Arguments, including several here on *Livefist*, over the years have now also melded together into one big exasperation. Nose cones. Radar efficiency. The ability to deploy smart weapons. Sustained turn rate. Hot and high operations after a cold soak. Manoeuverability at low altitude. Sea-level operations. Demonstration of air combat weapons. The lack of a mature primary sensor. The maintenance nightmare. The fact that crew will need a chisel and many hours to open any panel of the platform to find out what's wrong. Low power. You've heard it all.

The truth is, there have been too many lines in the sand. And not one of those has been respected. Not by the makers of the aircraft. And not by the Indian Air Force. A chronic lack of mutual trust between the IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on the one hand, and a laughably hostile status quo between the IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics on the other has bedeviled even basic convergence on delivery timelines, specifications and targets. Hostilities and egos, fuelled by the pulls and pressures of an overbearing acquisition impulse pegged on the arithmetics of sanctioned strength and squadron numbers. Hostilities that have allowed a most unfortunate regime of charges and counter-charges that have achieved only two things: (a) compelled an already troubled program to flounder further, and (b) kept the makers and customer from acknowledging genuine steps of progress towards a ready and usable project. This trust deficit and sneering incredulity needs to be a case study in indigenous project management going forward, for it has never been more manifest than in Project Tejas.

As I said, the exasperations around the LCA have tossed and turned for so long in a cauldron of innumerable pressures, that they appear practically ambiguous now. Few arguments both for and against the LCA Tejas arrive with any of the muscle they did earlier. Circumstances have changed. The IAF is a much more dynamic service in crucial ways. India's military industrial complex is itself in a period of flux that will hopefully see monopolistic development and production swept away to make way for competitive technology advances that involve the private sector. The possibilities are enormous.

Since no prescription on defence really involves a prescription, I'll end with a real one: set one final date for the induction of the LCA Tejas. Induct the Tejas on that date, no matter what has or hasn't been achieved by that date as stipulated in the last discussions on record. Roll out squadron service. Continue testing alongside squadron service (not uncommon for new platforms), as had been the original plan before goalposts were shifted once again. Get the Tejas to stretch its legs regularly at exercises. Send it out to the island bases on detachment to see if it's the workhorse it was built to be. Retrofit all new developments and additions, including IFR capabilities.

What about the air force? Is a sub-optimal platform being foisted on it? Truthfully, only squadron service will ever really tell. Is a reluctant air force being forced to accept an obsolete platform? Not really. The IAF has accounted for the LCA Tejas in its orbat, and has now expanded that requirement based on a matrix of pressures that includes, significantly, the lack of an alternative, seeing sense in moving forward on a platform the IAF is undeniably invested in and, finally, the realisation that the Tejas could conceivably be a platform far superior than its trodden-on image.

That's the key. Get it out into air force stations. That isn't the kind of fatalistic/idealistic prescription it sounds like. Several aircraft that have been mired in development hell have blossomed upon breathing squadron air.

*Former IAF chief Srinvasapuram Krishnaswamy once said to me in an interview days before he retired, "I feel we should simply induct the Tejas. Once it is in service, a sense of ownership will come. And we can progressively improve it jointly along with the developers. The aircraft needs to get out of test and into squadrons. That is the only solution."

That was 11 years ago.

LiveFist...*

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## Bratva

How much LCA are maintenance intensive since it has a higher composite content in it ? @sancho @MilSpec


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## MilSpec

Bratva said:


> How much LCA are maintenance intensive since it has a higher composite content in it ? @sancho @MilSpec


It depends on which structure you are referring to.IMO there are three areas which comes into question, Maintenance, Repair and Manufacturing.

CFRC has a huge advantage when it comes to cyclic loads, which the airframe (main spars, aft spar, wing roots, wing tips, wing skin, airframe skin, stabs, slats etc ) is subjected to, the fatigue strength is more than AL composites, CFRC honeycomb has better static load characteristics, so from maintenance perspective it is highly advantageous to use higher CFRC elements in the airframe. thus it's impact of maintainability of the structure is better than conventional al-ti composites. Stress fractures, fatigue cracks are minimal in comparison, and overhaul for the airframe will be much longer than conventional airframe.

Repair - Repair does pose a significant challenge when it comes to Carbon fiber composites, Uniaxial fiber layout is very difficult to repair with picture frame cutout, irrespective of machine or hand lapping, fiber direction orientation and field repair is quite difficult, where the AL-steel airframe have an advantage. For Biaxial fiber composites, mostly skin surface, bonding is relatively easier. The only way to circumvent this is to make entire additional sub-assemblies of entire uniaxial components.

Manufacturing- Process needs to very precise, Air bubles, Incomplete resin transfusion, dry patches, over penetration, incomplete bonding, resin contamination, Pre-preg rotting, are common issues in manufacturing of composites. Every batch of Pre-preg needs to be cured and tension-tension, tension-compression cyclic fatigue tests, needs to be run before it goes into production. For VARTM and PARTM wet lap fabric, resin and Fabric both needs test before production. So the process is quite elaborate, and there are more chances of introducing failure modes. PFMEA and DFMEA for each and every part is needed on every single failure. I feel for the quality and process engineers in the composite market. these chaps have it rough.

In all the benefits outweigh the headache, and is a welcome development for LCA.

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## Bratva

MilSpec said:


> It depends on which structure you are referring to.IMO there are three areas which comes into question, Maintenance, Repair and Manufacturing.
> 
> CFRC has a huge advantage when it comes to cyclic loads, which the airframe (main spars, aft spar, wing roots, wing tips, wing skin, airframe skin, stabs, slats etc ) is subjected to, the fatigue strength is more than AL composites, CFRC honeycomb has better static load characteristics, so from maintenance perspective it is highly advantageous to use higher CFRC elements in the airframe. thus it's impact of maintainability of the structure is better than conventional al-ti composites. Stress fractures, fatigue cracks are minimal in comparison, and overhaul for the airframe will be much longer than conventional airframe.
> 
> Repair - Repair does pose a significant challenge when it comes to Carbon fiber composites, Uniaxial fiber layout is very difficult to repair with picture frame cutout, irrespective of machine or hand lapping, fiber direction orientation and field repair is quite difficult, where the AL-steel airframe have an advantage. For Biaxial fiber composites, mostly skin surface, bonding is relatively easier. The only way to circumvent this is to make entire additional sub-assemblies of entire uniaxial components.
> 
> Manufacturing- Process needs to very precise, Air bubles, Incomplete resin transfusion, dry patches, over penetration, incomplete bonding, resin contamination, Pre-preg rotting, are common issues in manufacturing of composites. Every batch of Pre-preg needs to be cured and tension-tension, tension-compression cyclic fatigue tests, needs to be run before it goes into production. For VARTM and PARTM wet lap fabric, resin and Fabric both needs test before production. So the process is quite elaborate, and there are more chances of introducing failure modes. PFMEA and DFMEA for each and every part is needed on every single failure. I feel for the quality and process engineers in the composite market. these chaps have it rough.
> 
> In all the benefits outweigh the headache, and is a welcome development for LCA.



Lets hope it dont become a maintenance nightmare like MKI has become or else little wear and tear on composites make it impossible to maintain required fleet strength most of the time


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## cerberus

@MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Oscar
Can you Help Please

One Question in My Mind Puzzling Me 

Internal Fuel Capacity of LCA is 2,458 kg
2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage




For JF-17 its Internal 2,350 kg (5,130 lb)
External Fuel 2x1100Ltr +800 Ltr 





External Fuel
a- One centre line drop tank 800 liters
b- Two under wing drop tanks 800/1100 liters



So My question is Ferry Range of LCA is 1700 Km Whereas JF-17 has 3482 Claimed by Various Sources Can you Guys Help ????

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## longewala

cerberus said:


> @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Oscar
> Can you Help Please
> 
> One Question in My Mind Puzzling Me
> 
> Internal Fuel Capacity of LCA is 2,458 kg
> 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
> =1200+725=1925
> Total Fuel Capacity 2458+1925= 4383 Kg or Litre
> 
> 
> For JF-17 its Internal 2,350 kg (5,130 lb)
> External Fuel 1500Kg
> 
> Total Fuel Capacity 2350+1500= 3850 Kg or Litre
> 
> So My question is Ferry Range of LCA is 1700 Km Whereas JF-17 has 3482 Claimed by Various Sources Can Guys Help ????


The numbers speak for themselves, don't they? Use your common sense.


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## GURU DUTT

cerberus said:


> @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Oscar
> Can you Help Please
> 
> One Question in My Mind Puzzling Me
> 
> Internal Fuel Capacity of LCA is 2,458 kg
> 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
> =1200+725=1925
> Total Fuel Capacity 2458+1925= 4383 Kg or Litre
> 
> 
> For JF-17 its Internal 2,350 kg (5,130 lb)
> External Fuel 1500Kg
> 
> Total Fuel Capacity 2350+1500= 3850 Kg or Litre
> 
> So My question is Ferry Range of LCA is 1700 Km Whereas JF-17 has 3482 Claimed by Various Sources Can Guys Help ????


so in short either HAL/DRDO guys are deliberatelli hiding the true range of LCA or pakistanies ... i mean chinese are overplaying/boasting JF-17s range 

im confused

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## sathya

cerberus said:


> @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Oscar
> Can you Help Please
> 
> One Question in My Mind Puzzling Me
> 
> Internal Fuel Capacity of LCA is 2,458 kg
> 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For JF-17 its Internal 2,350 kg (5,130 lb)
> External Fuel 2x1100Ltr +800 Ltr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> External Fuel
> a- One centre line drop tank 800 liters
> b- Two under wing drop tanks 800/1100 liters
> 
> 
> 
> So My question is Ferry Range of LCA is 1700 Km Whereas JF-17 has 3482 Claimed by Various Sources Can you Guys Help ????




I am not sure of the answer..

But delta wing has more drag.. Our Tejas even more I think ..
So energy bleed is more..


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## 1ndy

sathya said:


> I am not sure of the answer..
> 
> But delta wing has more drag.. Our Tejas even more I think ..
> So energy bleed is more..



Engine of both the fighter produce more or less the same amount of thrust and both has almost same top speed(~1960km/h).

So if the drag is so high that it decreases the range by more than 50% then Tejas would require a higher thrust engine to attain the top speed.


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## cerberus

sathya said:


> I am not sure of the answer..
> 
> But delta wing has more drag.. Our Tejas even more I think ..
> So energy bleed is more..


 @sathya @1ndy
Argument is Flawed Because Saab Gripen is Also is A Delta Wing uses Same Engine with Low Thrust But Still has Ferry Range of 3200 Km 
Also LCA build on The relaxed static stability (RSS) Principle Like Eurofighter Tryphoon


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## MilSpec

Bratva said:


> Lets hope it dont become a maintenance nightmare like MKI has become or else little wear and tear on composites make it impossible to maintain required fleet strength most of the time


Where did you get your MKI info from, let me assure you nothing can be farther from the truth. Service rate doesn't correspond maintenance but the complexity of the aircraft, every x number of operations fuel pups need to be calibrated, hydraulic fluid needs to drained, sensors need calibration, that is what contributes to the service rate among all major combat platforms. it's not that something gets broken and has to welded together.

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## 1ndy

cerberus said:


> @sathya @1ndy
> Argument is Flawed Because Saab Gripen is Also is A Delta Wing uses Same Engine with Low Thrust But Still has Ferry Range of 3200 Km
> Also LCA build on The relaxed static stability (RSS) Principle Like Eurofighter Tryphoon


Whose argument is flawed?
Well if the Gripen also has ferry range above 3000km then the ferry range of LCA Tejas is seriously underrated.

PS: RSS reduces the fuel consumption.


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## cerberus

1ndy said:


> RSS reduces the fuel consumption.


 *relaxed stability* is the tendency of an aircraft to change its Attitude Control and angle of bank of its own accord.In Modern military aircraft, particularly low observable (Stealth) designs, often exhibit instability as a result of their shape. Fighter aircraft Like LCA often employ design elements which reduce stability to Increase Maneuverability . Greater stability leads to lesser control surface authority, therefore a less stable design will have a faster response to control inputs.


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## 1ndy

@cerberus
Relaxed stability designs are not limited to military
jets. The McDonnell Douglas MD-11 has a relaxed
stability design which was implemented to save fuel.

Relaxed stability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cerberus

1ndy said:


> @cerberus
> Relaxed stability designs are not limited to military
> jets. The McDonnell Douglas MD-11 has a relaxed
> stability design which was implemented to save fuel.
> 
> Relaxed stability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


My dear McDonnell Douglas MD-11 is a Jet Airliner We are discussing Military Aircraft here.

In LCA relaxed static stability (RSS) was an ambitious requirement. In 1988, Dassault had offered an analogue flight control system (FCS), but the ADA recognised that digital FCSs would supplant it. First flying in 1974, the General Dynamics F-16 was the first production aircraft designed to be slightly aerodynamically unstable to improve maneuverability.Many aircraft have _positive_ static stability to induce them to return to a straight, level flight attitude when the controls are released, maneuverability is reduced as the inherent stability has to be overcome. Aircraft with _negative_ stability are designed to deviate from controlled flight and thus be more maneuverable.

Attitude control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Simple harmonic motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## 1ndy

I know MD-11 is a jet airliner but physics rules are same for both jet airliner as well as military fighter jets.
My point is that RSS doesn't increase the fuel consumption if not reduce it.


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## knight11

cerberus said:


> @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Oscar
> Can you Help Please
> 
> One Question in My Mind Puzzling Me
> 
> Internal Fuel Capacity of LCA is 2,458 kg
> 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For JF-17 its Internal 2,350 kg (5,130 lb)
> External Fuel 2x1100Ltr +800 Ltr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> External Fuel
> a- One centre line drop tank 800 liters
> b- Two under wing drop tanks 800/1100 liters
> 
> 
> 
> So My question is Ferry Range of LCA is 1700 Km Whereas JF-17 has 3482 Claimed by Various Sources Can you Guys Help ????


If the Ferry range is 3482 KM, and combat range is 1200 Km, then there is no need for any SU-35 for the naval strike and deep strike missions period. LOLZ

*Ferry Range at what altitute and at what speed ??*

Many of time the OEM deliberately confused the common reader by over stated its performance. e.g the BVRAAM range varies due to launch altitute, speed of the aircraft, air density etc. So the range given for it reflects when it is fired from high altitude 30,000-50,000 feet to the target which is coming toward the launch aircraft at x speed. But here it is not the case. Tejas ferry range is 1700 with its internal fuel i.e it can fly 1700 Km from its base maximum at speed below 1 mach. This was the range what the ADA had given since at time the subsonic fuel tank was not flight certified.

Now if we look at the JF-17's ferry range figure of 3482 Km it is definitely with the drop tank, but under what condition ??
Pls note that the performance of the engine aka the thrust also depends on the environment. Our Indian subcontinental condition lowers the thrust produced upto 20% than the condition in ambient conditions of europe, and russia.

Drags plays part in lower range but at higher altitude the wind resistance is very low and the Delta wings drag is mostly in the high AoA not when cruising straight.

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## Rehan khan 1

cerberus said:


> @sathya @1ndy
> Argument is Flawed Because Saab Gripen is Also is A Delta Wing uses Same Engine with Low Thrust But Still has Ferry Range of 3200 Km
> Also LCA build on The relaxed static stability (RSS) Principle Like Eurofighter Tryphoon


hint is combate radius of 500km, because combate radius is absolutely dependant on internal fuel capacity which is said to be no more than 1.8 to 2 ton max (i think its even less than that). which is why LCA troubles with IAF too much weight and too low fuel fraction.


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## cerberus

Rehan khan 1 said:


> hint is combate radius of 500km, because combate radius is absolutely dependant on internal fuel capacity which is said to be no more than 1.8 to 2 ton max (i think its even less than that). which is why LCA troubles with IAF too much weight and too low fuel fraction.


who told you that Internal fuel capacity of LCA is 2458 Kg Already demonstrated in IOC-2 as-well published in DRDO Published Papers


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## Rehan khan 1

cerberus said:


> who told you that Internal fuel capacity of LCA is 2458 Kg Already demonstrated in IOC-2 as-well published in DRDO Published Papers


then why 500Km combat radius and why IAF says too shot range and wont accept it in service? Published material on LCA is proven wrong many time it could be the case again? anyhow i cannot provide any link to support my claim.


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## GURU DUTT

Rehan khan 1 said:


> then why 500Km combat radius and why IAF says too shot range and wont accept it in service? Published material on LCA is proven wrong many time it could be the case again? anyhow i cannot provide any link to support my claim.


there is a universal phenomena in any indian wepon system they tend to downplay the orignal range of such thing then be it missiles or tejas... i still dont know why


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## cerberus

Rehan khan 1 said:


> then why 500Km combat radius and why IAF says too shot range and wont accept it in service? Published material on LCA is proven wrong many time it could be the case again? anyhow i cannot provide any link to support my claim.


In think your missed the Line where i said Demonstrated.
As For Its Induction I think you Have to Catch a Lot on LCA that you missed in these Few Days on PDF


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## Rehan khan 1

cerberus said:


> In think your missed the Line where i said Demonstrated.
> As For Its Induction I think you Have to Catch a Lot on LCA that you missed in these Few Days on PDF


i didn't miss that it is forced upon IAF. Theory discussed is that IAF love foreign mall and is resisting Hundreds of LCA and instead demanding 40 Rafale for IAF or both (LCA+Rafale). It’s too low of view to criticize IAF even when they are giving rational for their resistance. After all they are the one to face the music when failure of LCA will occur in combat.

Lately no body trust them.


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## cerberus

Rehan khan 1 said:


> i didn't miss that it is forced upon IAF. Theory discussed is that IAF love foreign mall and is resisting Hundreds of LCA and instead demanding 40 Rafale for IAF or both (LCA+Rafale). It’s too low of view to criticize IAF even when they are giving rational for their resistance. After all they are the one to face the music when failure of LCA will occur in combat.
> 
> Lately no body trust them.


And you Know Better as Being An Outsider (Pakistani).Nevertheless IAF cheif Already Made Statement that LCA Meets its Requirements 
Tejas would meet our requirements: Indian Air Force chief | Business Standard News

PS:Latest News Buzz For you IAF to order 100 modified Tejas aircraft - The Economic Times


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## Rehan khan 1

cerberus said:


> And you Know Better as Being An Outsider (Pakistani).Nevertheless IAF cheif Already Made Statement that LCA Meets its Requirements


i think its political statement. besides there is "Would" in it. there is link on the same page says they want 100 Rafale.


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## knight11

Rehan khan 1 said:


> i didn't miss that it is forced upon IAF. Theory discussed is that IAF love foreign mall and is resisting Hundreds of LCA and instead demanding 40 Rafale for IAF or both (LCA+Rafale). It’s too low of view to criticize IAF even when they are giving rational for their resistance. After all they are the one to face the music when failure of LCA will occur in combat.



LCA combat radius on internal fuel is 350 Km when weapon loaded and the combat radius without any weapon which is the marketing rating to showcase the weapon is 500 Km which is ok being light MCA. 
Similarly for F-16 its 550 Km with 2 LGB, 2 WVRAAM on HI-Low-Hi profile, I cannot comment on JF-17's combat radius which the poster says 1200 KM. 

There are various factors that affects the combat radius, like weapon load, flight profile HI/Low/Mix, air density etc but its the fuel fraction which is more important. Also the projected radius of the Rafale is in the ambient admosphere which can be reduced upto 10-20% in Indian condition.


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## Rehan khan 1

knight11 said:


> LCA combat radius on internal fuel is 350 Km when weapon loaded and the combat radius without any weapon which is the marketing rating to showcase the weapon is 500 Km which is ok being light MCA.
> Similarly for F-16 its 550 Km with 2 LGB, 2 WVRAAM on HI-Low-Hi profile, I cannot comment on JF-17's combat radius which the poster says 1200 KM.
> 
> There are various factors that affects the combat radius, like weapon load, flight profile HI/Low/Mix, air density etc but its the fuel fraction which is more important. Also the projected radius of the Rafale is in the ambient admosphere which can be reduced upto 10-20% in Indian condition.


Above F-16 combat radius is with no drop tank or com. Fuel tank and loaded with weapons. F16 has lot of hard points for both. While ferry range is 4200 km with drop tanks. It does not match with LCA any how. Irrelevant.


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## calmDown@all

can somebody here tell me that how come jf 17 has such a long range when its engine & fuel consumption are nearly same & have same amt. of capacity of external load as of the tejas or lca .


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## knight11

Rehan khan 1 said:


> Above F-16 combat radius is with no drop tank or com. Fuel tank and loaded with weapons. F16 has lot of hard points for both. While ferry range is 4200 km with drop tanks. It does not match with LCA any how. Irrelevant.


Now this is the point it does not match because LCA is light MRCA and F-16 is medium wt MMRCA. So LCA would more suit for the point defense, interceptor and CAS not as the deep strike attack mission. Thats point was made you to realized how the Import Looby plays its part to defame the LCA in among the general people.

What ever you and me are getting the news are from the newspaper and the articles written by mumbo jumbo defense journalists. You very well know that India is the biggest importer of the weapons. So if India starts making its own weapon in India by their PSU's and Indian OEM, they will loose Billions of the profit they earn them from importing that to India. So how much do they have to pay do you think to Reutors, Media, Newspapers, experts writter, to write articles against Indian weapon. 

The Magic word is *FLAWED* which is used by all the variants of the original article given them to copy.

In the modern world only USA, RUSSIA, and Europe can make the complete fighter plane industriously, so why blaming India for the import item. It is not practically and economically possible to develop each and every subsystem in the country. When you develop the system various subsystems can be choosed from various OEM depending of the situation and requirement.

Our ADA designer should be praised that they set so much high target which help the LCA to survive from being send to the dustbin after declared absolute.



calmDown@all said:


> can somebody here tell me that how come jf 17 has such a long range when its engine & fuel consumption are nearly same & have same amt. of capacity of external load as of the tejas or lca .


Take all those claim with the Pinch of Salt.

Both have same Combat and ferry Range.


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## MimophantSlayer

calmDown@all said:


> can somebody here tell me that how come jf 17 has such a long range when its engine & fuel consumption are nearly same & have same amt. of capacity of external load as of the tejas or lca .



DSI man what else.

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## AyanRay

calmDown@all said:


> can somebody here tell me that how come jf 17 has such a long range when its engine & fuel consumption are nearly same & have same amt. of capacity of external load as of the tejas or lca .



TEJAS mileage kaam deti hai shayad se.


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## GURU DUTT

calmDown@all said:


> can somebody here tell me that how come jf 17 has such a long range when its engine & fuel consumption are nearly same & have same amt. of capacity of external load as of the tejas or lca .


another thing apart from chinese and hyper patriotic pakistani exagarading the comabt range of there super duper DSI tech laden fighter is sabotage philosophy /false propogandda to scuttle LCA entry into air force by greedy beurocrats , policticicans and there presstitutes they delliberetalli made one after another such media campain and hid the strong points of LCA and now since they are firmly said no and there arms agents bieng hunted they have now started to speak truths

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## Rehan khan 1

GURU DUTT said:


> another thing apart from chinese and hyper patriotic pakistani exagarading the comabt range of there super duper DSI tech laden fighter is sabotage philosophy /false propogandda to scuttle LCA entry into air force by greedy beurocrats , policticicans and there presstitutes they delliberetalli made one after another such media campain and hid the strong points of LCA and now since they are firmly said no and there arms agents bieng hunted they have now started to speak truths


Comparing same class of fighter jet only LCA is odd one range wise jft and gripen validate each other. I think LCA is short in leanth then other two which is probably why. But then again why staggering weight.


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## Rehan khan 1

knight11 said:


> Now this is the point it does not match because LCA is light MRCA and F-16 is medium wt MMRCA. So LCA would more suit for the point defense, interceptor and CAS not as the deep strike attack mission. Thats point was made you to realized how the Import Looby plays its part to defame the LCA in among the general people.
> 
> What ever you and me are getting the news are from the newspaper and the articles written by mumbo jumbo defense journalists. You very well know that India is the biggest importer of the weapons. So if India starts making its own weapon in India by their PSU's and Indian OEM, they will loose Billions of the profit they earn them from importing that to India. So how much do they have to pay do you think to Reutors, Media, Newspapers, experts writter, to write articles against Indian weapon.
> 
> The Magic word is *FLAWED* which is used by all the variants of the original article given them to copy.
> 
> In the modern world only USA, RUSSIA, and Europe can make the complete fighter plane industriously, so why blaming India for the import item. It is not practically and economically possible to develop each and every subsystem in the country. When you develop the system various subsystems can be choosed from various OEM depending of the situation and requirement.
> 
> Our ADA designer should be praised that they set so much high target which help the LCA to survive from being send to the dustbin after declared absolute.
> 
> 
> Take all those claim with the Pinch of Salt.
> 
> Both have same Combat and ferry Range.


Concept of this age is miltiroll aircrafts. Point defence with mig-21 type jet is thing of past. As for close CAS this plane does not have rough air feild capability which mean it has to take off from well maintained airbase which are not and should not be closeby (for china and pak). LCA rang mean that a competant MLR system can takeout the base it is flying from. For example paf CAS squd is based in peshawar. War is not about making weapons that fails however history is full of such weaponry.


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## Rehan khan 1

Looking at its trust to weight ratio and range i think its margenly better than mig-21. Both lack endurance. Radar range currently are equal. India should get mig-29 as mig-21 replacement. Its economical and licence production can also be negosiated.

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## ultron

No SP-2 this year? One plane does not a squadron make.


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## monitor

* A second Tejas assembly line *




*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 13th Oct 15*
As this newspaper has reported, there has been a major breakthrough in one of India’s most ambitious and expensive weapons development projects --- the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- with the Indian Air Force (IAF) now willing to accept 100 improved fighters. The Tejas Mark IA, as some call the improved version, will have air-to-air refuelling, improved radar, missiles to strike enemy aircraft beyond visual range and electronic jammers to blind enemy radar. For Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is struggling to build even the first 20 fighters, the IAF’s acceptance constitutes an embarrassment of riches. Going by HAL’s current rate of assembly, delivering 120 Tejas fighters will take a decade.
The real Tejas numbers will, in fact, be well above 120. Given that the IAF has finally accepted the Tejas Mark 1A as a capable replacement for its 13 squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s, it will need at least 250 Tejas fighters before the end of the decade, when the obsolescent MiGs must be retired. Furthermore, the IAF requires another 20 more Tejas Mark 1A for training. The navy, meanwhile, has declared it needs at least 56 Tejas Mark II (with more powerful engines) for its two indigenous aircraft carriers. That adds up to well above 300 Tejas fighters.
It should be obvious to planners in South Block that the Tejas cannot possibly be built in these numbers, in an acceptable time-frame, without establishing another assembly line to double the efforts of HAL’s current Tejas line in Bengaluru. This is the golden opportunity the defence ministry has been seeking for nurturing a private sector competitor to HAL. The ministry must select a private company, transfer to it the technology needed to build the Tejas, and order 150 fighters in short order.
The ministry is already attempting to build up a private sector aerospace manufacturer, but in a misconceived project. A Tata-Airbus consortium has been asked to build 56 transport aircraft to replace the IAF’s venerable Avro fleet. There are many problems with this proposal: It does not envisage building an indigenous aircraft; it makes no economic sense to set up full-scale production infrastructure, including an airfield, for just 56 aircraft; a multinational giant (Airbus) will hold disproportionate clout in the partnership, and most crucially, the Avro has never had an operational role beyond ferrying air marshals around the country. Neither will its replacement.
In contrast, a parallel Tejas production line would be a perfect launch pad for a private aerospace corporation. Unlike HAL, which has an aerospace empire sprawling across the country, a private sector aerospace entrant would per force have to develop a network of vendors and sub-vendors, upon which it would rely for systems, sub-systems and components, while reserving for itself only final integration --- assembling the parts and rolling out, inspecting and testing full-built Tejas fighters. In contrast, HAL avoids sub-vendors, keeping profits within the company by farming out manufacture to its own numerous divisions.
A parallel private sector production line would also create competition to make the Tejas cheaper. For this, the private company must be encouraged to partner an established western corporation like Saab, Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin or Dassault. Many have signalled interest in partnering India; Saab had even put forward a full-scale proposal that was largely ignored in New Delhi. The chosen foreign vendor should be incentivised to bring in contemporary aerospace manufacturing technologies and best practices.
While HAL’s single production line would not meet even the IAF’s requirements, adding a parallel line would open up exports. So far, with the IAF itself unwilling to accept the Tejas, there has been little prospect of exporting this excellent fighter --- buyers usually reason, “If the home air force is not interested, why should we be?” But, with the IAF now inducting the fighter in numbers, the Tejas can establish a presence in the global light fighter market. Even at its current cost of Rs 240 crore ($40 million), which includes the aircraft, ground equipment, test equipment and spares, it is reasonably priced, given its fourth-generation configuration --- a fly-by-wire fighter, built of composite materials.
The Tejas’ current price can be lowered, given that it is currently planned and built in the most uneconomical manner possible --- with little outsourcing, an inadequate assembly line and orders placed in penny-packets, which eliminates economy of scale. Instead of this, working on an assured order of 100-150 aircraft, with a vendor chain developed deliberately, and the incorporation of international best practices in assembly, would lower the Tejas’ cost substantially. This would boost the prospect of export, especially when backed by an international vendor’s marketing expertise and global marketing chains. This prospect of global export would be an added attraction for international vendors.
In sum, bringing in a private sector company to establish a parallel production line for the Tejas would do more than just create an aerospace alternative. It would also ensure the Tejas is inducted into IAF service at least twice as fast, filling up a worrying operational gap. Second, global standards and best practices would come into domestic aerospace manufacture. Third, modern assembly lines and competition would drive down the cost of the Tejas, benefiting the IAF as well as export prospects. Finally, the entry of the private sector into aerospace would spread dynamism and flexibility across the industry.
There are difficulties too, and the first is to select a private company that would benefit enormously from government largesse --- including access to airfield infrastructure, since demanding that the company establishes its own would raise the cost of entry unrealistically. Given the cutthroat competition between private sector aspirants in defence, the ministry would need a clear and transparent formula for selecting a winner, one that could withstand inevitably bitter scrutiny from the losers. This would naturally involve assessments of financial health, track records in manufacture, core areas of expertise, and past delivery records. Competition will be intense, given that the ministry would be giving the winner a leg-up into the ranks of global aerospace manufacturers, just as it spent taxpayer billions to make HAL what it is today. A clear public rationale will have to justify the decision.
A sceptical HAL unsurprisingly scoffs at the notion of a rival private sector assembly line. Senior executives point to what happened three months ago when HAL, already preoccupied with three simultaneous helicopter programmes (the light combat helicopter, light utility helicopter and weaponised Dhruv), issued a proposal offering the private sector full technology transfer to build the Dhruv advanced light helicopter in India. HAL officials say not a single private vendor accepted the challenge.

HAL also points out that the private sector Tejas line would run for, say, a decade, but the company would have to logistically support the fighter for the next thirty years. This is true, even if it betrays an unreasonable suspicion of the private sector that has a reasonable record of supporting products. What is true, though, is that if the private sector fails to respond to an invitation to build the Tejas, or does not support the fighter through its service life, this would be a black mark forever.
Posted by  Broadsword  at 08:23  12 comments:


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## knight11

Rehan khan 1 said:


> Concept of this age is miltiroll aircrafts. Point defence with mig-21 type jet is thing of past. As for close CAS this plane does not have rough air feild capability which mean it has to take off from well maintained airbase which are not and should not be closeby (for china and pak). LCA rang mean that a competant MLR system can takeout the base it is flying from. For example paf CAS squd is based in peshawar. War is not about making weapons that fails however history is full of such weaponry.


IAF still not USAF category, nor India is USA or Europe. US too have such role based planes in the past and present e.g F-15 Air Superiority, F-16 Strike, F-14 for the carrier , A-10 Thunderbolt for ground attack, SR-71 for Recce, B-52 bomber.

LCA doesn't have to provide DAS(Deep Air Support) rather CAS and the well prepared airfield will be in close proximity of the border, so Tejas mk1 with littering pod and LGB like Spice 250, and gravity bomb is more than enough for CAS.

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## #hydra#

So at the end IAF is not going to order tejas mk2 or what?proposed mk2 spec is much Superior to proposed mk1A at least on paper.


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## knight11

#hydra# said:


> So at the end IAF is not going to order tejas mk2 or what?proposed mk2 spec is much Superior to proposed mk1A at least on paper.


I am not an expert, but my guess is that MK1a is just the MK1 with some added features or upgraded equipment what was earlier proposed for MK-1, so that the IAF don't have anything left to argue. E.g in the combined meeting of IAF, DRDO/ADA/HAL and MOD, the IAF have raised some concerned that it has limited capability, the the DRDO have proposed that ok then choose better subsystem, but the cost will be more. and the MOD nodded to go ahead.

MK-2 Which have different and powerful engine, whose airframe needs to be changed, and needs flight testing, is another project which is running in parallel.

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## IAmKalam

Rehan khan 1 said:


> *Concept of this age is miltiroll aircrafts. *Point defence with mig-21 type jet is thing of past. As for close CAS this plane does not have rough air feild capability which mean it has to take off from well maintained airbase which are not and should not be closeby (for china and pak). LCA rang mean that a competant MLR system can takeout the base it is flying from. For example paf CAS squd is based in peshawar. War is not about making weapons that fails however history is full of such weaponry.




No fighter plane on earth can be multirole.. When the fighter plane is made, they are made with some objective.. Along with taht objective some other peripherals are added which make it usable for othre roles as well. 

Making true multirole is waste of rrsources.. 

Example: 
1. Rafael: Made mainly as ground attack fighter plane with added capability of A2A .
2. EFT: made an air superiority fighter with added capability of A2G.


Tejas: It basically a point defense fighter with added capabilities.. It can perform A2G and CAS role as well. But its most important role will be point-Defense..

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## GURU DUTT

IAmKalam said:


> No fighter plane on earth can be multirole.. When the fighter plane is made, they are made with some objective.. Along with taht objective some other peripherals are added which make it usable for othre roles as well.
> 
> Making true multirole is waste of rrsources..
> 
> Example:
> 1. Rafael: Made mainly as ground attack fighter plane with added capability of A2A .
> 2. EFT: made an air superiority fighter with added capability of A2G.
> 
> 
> *Tejas: It basically a point defense fighter with added capabilities.. It can perform A2G and CAS role as well. But its most important role will be point-Defense*..









and already with a EL-2032 MMR(80Km+ track range for 2m2squ target)+DASH HMDS+Lightning G4 LDP+ Python 5 -Derby-IDerbyER-R73 A-A missile combo and a 350Km combat radius(more than mig21 its going to replace) & 4tonne wepons/external feul load on its 8 wepon stations it is more than enof for that role


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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## Abingdonboy




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## ultron

no SP-2


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## fsayed

*IDN TAKE: UTTAM AESA RADAR PROGRESSING WELL*
*THURSDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2015 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS*




*INTRODUCTION*

An Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) is an active antenna consisting of a large number of radiating elements and is commonly used in today’s radar systems. One of the major advantages with this kind of antenna system is the ability to steer the beam electronically from one direction to another without any mechanical motion.
*ADVANTAGES*
The inherent advantages of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar are the obvious inertia-less scanning and the minimal feeder loss as no lengthy feeder cables are involved. Unlike in the MSA radar, the AESA radar has the impudence to perform even with failure of some of its radiating elements. The AESA radar goes through a graceful degradation with cumulative failures in its battery of transmit-receive modules. The AESA radar helps build substantially compact radar systems resulting in low weight, minimal aerodynamic drag, and relatively smaller radar cross-section (RCS), all of which are of vital importance operationally for the platform aircraft. Besides, the AESA radar provides enhanced beam agility with higher reliability. The latest AESA sensor further helps track air- and sea-targets simultaneously as well as tracks continuously the high performance aircraft, while maintaining the routine scan over the operational area.
*INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT*




Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) is developing an indigenous AESA Fire Control Radar called UTTAM. It is being developed for the LCA Mk2 and Mk1 (presumably Mk-1A will be upgraded with the system) and also other aircraft upgrades such as the IAF's Jaguars and MiG-29Ks.
The timeline for the indigenous Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar has been set at 2017, two years from now. At Aero India 2009, it was revealed that the 3D MMR project has been superseded by the new 3D AESA FCR project led by LRDE. This Radar has the capability for Air to Ground mapping and targeting. This "hybrid" MMR has successfully undergone trials, and will be supplied for the initial LCA Tejas fighters of which 2 Squadrons have been ordered.
*DEVELOPMENT, TESTING*





Realization and calibration of prototype Active Antenna Array Unit (AAAU) has been completed. The AAAU is configured to compactly house several transmit/receive multi-modules dividers, beam forming units, beam control units, power supply units and related electronic devices including cables and connectors. This has been achieved through an innovative and iterative process to arrive at the AAAU with minimal dimensions and optimum mass properties. A Liquid Circulation System (LCS) has also been developed as AAAU dissipates around 2650 watts of heat during operation and needs to be cooled considering the options available, space and geometry constraints. This cooling systems consists of pump & flow circuits and liquid to air heat exchanger.
Development of the Transmit-Receive Multi-Modules (TRMM) was a significant and high-value indigenous effort as the technology, hitherto available only to a handful of advanced nations, could be, for the first time, engineered successfully to fully meet the needs of the Indian AEW&C system. A unique feature of the indigenous TRMM design is that eight trans-receive modules are combined compactly to form a single TRMM, thus facilitating high density installation of 160 of them in the AAAU to power the surveillance radar. The important fact about the indigenous TRMM is that the quantity required for the Indian AEW&C program could be produced through the industry in the private sector at a cost less than one-fourth of that of its imported equivalent. The realisation of the TRMM is a boost to self-reliance in development of indigenous defence systems.

DRDO currently has completed an Airworthy Radar Processor and Exciter Receiver in Mechanically Scanned Array (MSA) configuration for validation of various algorithms and wave-forms of the fire control radar .
Software development for air-air sub-modes have been completed and DRDO is testing the radar in Air-to-Air mode, and the crucial software block testing which will allow aircraft to carry out air-to-ground modes for high resolution mapping, multiple ground moving target detection/racking, target identification, electronic warfare, and ultra high bandwidth communications.

*CAPABILITIES*

UTTAM has capabilities like, Identification friend or foe (IFF), electronic and communication support measures, C-band line-of-sight and Ku-band SATCOM datalinks, etc., similar to those on the AWACS and Conformal Airborne Early Warning & Control Systems (CAEW) systems.
The important modes of operation of the UTTAM radar system are the surface surveillance and the air surveillance. The sensor has the abilities to search, track-while-scan, priority tracking, high performance tracking, etc. In priority tracking, the targets will be placed in full track mode even if these cross the primary surveillance area. In high performance tracking, additional measurements are made to improve the tracking accuracy. Utilizing active aperture technology, the radar provides a fast-beam agile system that can operate in several modes concurrently.
*FOCUS ON AIRBORNE RADAR FOR TEJAS*
Hardware has already been realized for this radar which has a range of 100 km against small fighter sized targets and rooftop testing has been completed. Though the Uttam AESA currently weighs 120 kg which is some 40 kg more than the current MMR, there will be no problem in integrating it with the LCA Mk-II which can easily carry a radar of this weight. It is a 3D radar for fighters, a MMR follow on, the Active Phased Array Radar (APAR) project aims to field a fully fledged operational AESA fire control radar for the expected Mark-2 version of the Tejas.
This will be the second airborne AESA program after the AEW&C project and intends to transfer the success DRDO has achieved in the Ground based radar segment to airborne systems. The overall airborne program aims to prevent this technology gap from developing, with a broad based program to bring DRDO up to par with international developers in airborne systems: both fire control and surveillance. The earlier versions of radars has mechanically moving parts, whose output was painfully slow when compared to the new generation electronic technology. LCA also has a sophisticated fly by wire system and glass cockpit.
AESA in the LCAs will obviously have a lower range, but it will be well integrated within the IAF network, and give a quantum technology jump to IAF’s combat capabilities. Notably, the 36 Rafales being acquired by IAF in the Government-to-Government deal will also have the AESA radar, developed by Thales.
BEL has also developed a RADAR WARNING RECEIVER (RWR) which is designed for fitment on fighter aircrafts and helicopters. It intercepts, detects and identifies all types of ground and air borne emitters (Pulse, CW, ICW, Pulse Doppler, Pulse agile, Frequency agile) and presents them on Cockpit Display Unit with the help of alphanumeric/special colour symbols and audio tones.
It is worthwhile to note that US companies Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have established considerable lead in the AESA development, while in Europe, Thales has its AESA installed on Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft. In fact, AESA was a key requirement for India’s MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) competition, and the 36 Rafale jets being acquired from France should have both the AESA as well as the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system.
*AESA COMPOSITION ON TEJAS*

_*Tejas Mk 1 :: GE404 engine, No AESA
Tejas Mk 1.P :: GE404 engine, AESA, No design Change
Tejas Mk 2 :: GE414 is a more powerful engine compared to the earlier GE404, Several design changes and added electronic warfare capabilities*_

*FUTURISTIC 360°-CAPABLE ANTENNA*
Preliminary studies have been carried out at Center for Airborne Studies (CABS) for a possible optimal design of a futuristic antenna with the desirable 360°-vision for roles identified under various war situations. The unique aerodynamically-shaped delta radome will blend with the aerodynamics of the platform-aircraft to provide the required radar performance together with better operational economy by virtue of its better aerodynamics, reduced weight, and better or similar electro-magnetics. This radar may be dorsal or conformal fuselage mounted doubts still remain as not much is known about its specifications or configuration.
*CONCLUSION*
The foregoing summarises the efforts made by DRDO towards development of the AESA radar for its current and future AEW&C applications as well as for realising essential allied technologies. The necessary core competence to evolve futuristic applications in AESA radar has thus been adequately established.

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## Sri

Ajay shukla is reporting that Tejas will have upgraded Elta 2052, he is even quoting Raju that the deal is already signed.
Broadsword: Cutting edge Israeli radar wins air force approval for Tejas fighter
And the upgraded aircraft MK1A or MK1P or MK1++  will be rolled for induction by 2018

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## knight11



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## knight11



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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## Rehan khan 1

GURU DUTT said:


> another thing apart from chinese and hyper patriotic pakistani exagarading the comabt range of there super duper DSI tech laden fighter is sabotage philosophy /false propogandda to scuttle LCA entry into air force by greedy beurocrats , policticicans and there presstitutes they delliberetalli made one after another such media campain and hid the strong points of LCA and now since they are firmly said no and there arms agents bieng hunted they have now started to speak truths


IAF wants aerial refuelling, jammers, quick turnaround in new Tejas
from another thread says fuel cap is 2300 liters not Kilograms which translate into 1.8 ton. so range is low because of low fuel cap. an is not outcome of propaganda.


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## GURU DUTT

Rehan khan 1 said:


> IAF wants aerial refuelling, jammers, quick turnaround in new Tejas
> from another thread says fuel cap is 2300 liters not Kilograms which translate into 1.8 ton. so range is low because of low fuel cap.



i hope this chart will give you something to ponder about and it is at least three if not four years old .... cheers mate

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## Rehan khan 1

GURU DUTT said:


> i hope this chart will give you something to ponder about and it is at least three if not four years old .... cheers mate


Seriously look at empty weight figure of all including LCA, is it a joke chart?

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## GURU DUTT

Rehan khan 1 said:


> Seriously look at empty weight figure of all including LCA, is it a joke chart?


but it is on net for more than three years and people like @Manticore have also used it on this very forum anyway the true internal feul wieght is 2460KG and after removing acsess counter wieghts , ballast , wiring harnesses and housings for testing equipment, shedding wieght from over ingeeneared landing gear LCA is salted to loose 500-1000KG from it and also after rearanging its present avionicks more compactlli LCA is going to be a very diffent beast altogether and there will be much more space to spare for fitting a IFR probe , AESA radar and onboard oxygen genrating system and work has already started on it rest you speculate yourself

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## Rehan khan 1

GURU DUTT said:


> but it is on net for more than three years and people like @Manticore have also used it on this very forum anyway the true internal feul wieght is 2460KG and after removing acsess counter wieghts , ballast , wiring harnesses and housings for testing equipment, shedding wieght from over ingeeneared landing gear LCA is salted to loose 500-1000KG from it and also after rearanging its present avionicks more compactlli LCA is going to be a very diffent beast altogether and there will be much more space to spare for fitting a IFR probe , AESA radar and onboard oxygen genrating system and work has already started on it rest you speculate yourself


If you do some research on how many reports says over weight+ low fuel + drag vs those reports that deny these issues and include official IAF statements and coupled with fact that LCA is a meter short in length (than the others) and have to pack all the electronic equipment in tight airframe + India’s short experience on engineering and designing modern fighter aircraft on its own and reluctance of designer to confront critics, It’s not hard conclude that LCA is short on performance. Which is why foreign companies are offering to partner up in it, offering help and joint development. I know you doubt the aircraft but you don’t want to accept it.


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## GURU DUTT

Rehan khan 1 said:


> If you do some research on how many reports says over weight+ low fuel + drag vs those reports that deny these issues and include official IAF statements and coupled with fact that LCA is a meter short in length (than the others) and have to pack all the electronic equipment in tight airframe + India’s short experience on engineering and designing modern fighter aircraft on its own and reluctance of designer to confront critics, It’s not hard conclude that LCA is short on performance. Which is why foreign companies are offering to partner up in it, offering help and joint development. I know you doubt the aircraft but you don’t want to accept it.


thing is tejas was design in a way that all its diffrent parts do multi tasking and cut wieght thru that (like landing gear used as air brake) but deu to constant goal post changing by the IAF for LCA meant too many extra tellimatorry and testing equipment went into LCA and like its light wieght dint waranted for a very hefty & over engineared a twin tyre type landing gear (single tyre landing gear is good enof)

now with losing all that wieght a rearranging the avionicks more compactlli lots of extra space will be freed which will be utilised to pack in things like retractable IFR probe , on board oxygen gerating system extra power genrating equipment for AESA radar and AESA based EW suite and possiballi a compact internal IRST system + a new air intake system (i hope its DSI)and redisigned wings and all that on LCA MK1A

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## Rehan khan 1

GURU DUTT said:


> thing is tejas was design in a way that all its diffrent parts do multi tasking and cut wieght thru that (like landing gear used as air brake) but deu to constant goal post changing by the IAF for LCA meant too many extra tellimatorry and testing equipment went into LCA and like its light wieght dint waranted for a very hefty & over engineared a twin tyre type landing gear (single tyre landing gear is good enof)
> 
> now with losing all that wieght a rearranging the avionicks more compactlli lots of extra space will be freed which will be utilised to pack in things like retractable IFR probe , on board oxygen gerating system extra power genrating equipment for AESA radar and AESA based EW suite and possiballi a compact internal IRST system + a new air intake system (i hope its DSI)and redisigned wings and all that on LCA MK1A



Well they are inducting her as it is with nominal changes. No time for rearrangement and subsequent testing, may be in Mk 2. For second part of your reply space saved will be consumed by these installations (as you mentioned) and hence problem will persist.


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## MilSpec

zebra7 said:


> good and logical answer, one offtopic question for an expert like you
> 
> Its clear that LCA if shelfed 6-10 percentage of over wt would attain the desired ASQR of IAF, ADA are confidence in shelving ~1000-900 kg. The option what I can predict are removal of 200 kg ballast, overwt reduction by making the overwt parts lighter. Heard that the landing gear is over wt due to ADA using the safety factor of 3.5 instead of normal which i think is 2.5, so if the factor is 2.5 KG how much wt can be reduced say landing gear wt is 1.5 ton.
> And any idea how reduction can be achieved.



(I don't like derailing threads, so I moved your query here, so even others can contribute )

Ballast business: why is there a ballast in the nose? > to simulate a Radar unit
What happens when the 210 Kg Ballast goes away ? > It is replaced by an AESA radar > weighing 250 Kilos, so an addition of 40 KG's and an additional IFR Probe, weight unknown.

Next where to shave weight:

Ample room to save weight in internal fin for Wing and newer low density core for the single piece honeycomb dorsal fin , > potential to shave another 200-300

Replace all steel servo cases and hydraulic cylinders to Aluminum > another 100-300kg Potential saving

Over engineered Main Landing gear unit another 400- 600 Kgs there

So there is the possibility of shaving all of the weight envisaged.

Next about ASHQ requirements - In my opinion there is no great need for taking it to the word. There were no such req's for MKI, Mig 29, Mirage 2000, mig 27... You will be surprised we inducted maritime strike missiles without even testing them, so this entire hoopla behind "to the book", requirements is a bit of sophistication, and whole lot of BS. DM needs to press his foot down and IAF needs to make do with what it is available. If IAF had taken the a/c five years back and worked with HAL it would have been all that we are talking off today....

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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## Ankit Kumar

Any idea when SP2 will be delivered?


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## sathya

Ankit Kumar said:


> Any idea when SP2 will be delivered?



By official statement, another 3 examples to be inducted within next 5 months , by march 2016

SP2 is supposed to be ready, very long back
Don't wknow , nose cone change is such a difficult job.

Or else they are making chnages for mk1A
Which is also irrelevant as first 2o would be in ioc configuration .

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## MilSpec

sathya said:


> By official statement, another 3 examples to be inducted within next 5 months , by march 2016
> 
> SP2 is supposed to be ready, very long back
> Don't wknow , nose cone change is such a difficult job.
> 
> Or else they are making chnages for mk1A
> Which is also irrelevant as first 2o would be in ioc configuration .


unless people are fired from key position, i don't see any hope for this project.


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## sathya

MilSpec said:


> unless people are fired from key position, i don't see any hope for this project.






I was hoping to see 4 SP s before march next year..


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## Stephen Cohen

@MilSpec @sathya 

All planes will now be in FOC configuration 
Hence the delay in SP 2


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## Ankit Kumar

See this. First pic of today's launch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/660841489837101056


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## sathya

Stephen Cohen said:


> @MilSpec @sathya
> 
> All planes will now be in FOC configuration
> Hence the delay in SP 2



So before sp2 is out, we will see BVR , gun firings & refuel probe from previous LSP s ?


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## Stephen Cohen

sathya said:


> So before sp2 is out, we will see BVR , gun firings & refuel probe from previous LSP s ?



Yes Every thing will be done for FOC purpose

SO that we can declare FOC ; there is a lot of criticism about FOC delays

Then we can see serial production start in right earnest

Also the maintenance people are getting trained
and other preparatory work is also happening on a priority basis
before Serial production is Ramped up

Please read this 5 Tejas in Squadron colours to fly during next IAF Day sky party: DRDO - Oneindia
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Squadron formation preparations in full swing Around 60 per cent work towards the formation of the Tejas Squadron is completed at Bengaluru. "The O-Level training to IAF technicians has been completed. The air crew training on mission simulator is likely to be completed by November this year. About 70 per cent of GSE/GHE (Ground Support Equipment/Ground Handling Equipment) procurement is also completed," he added.

The technical publications and flight manuals have already been delivered to the IAF. Initially, the IAF has planned to operate the aircraft from Bangalore and then shift to the permanent Tejas Squadron base in Sulur (Tamil Nadu). The IAF too has taken up a series of modernization work at Sulur to welcome the new entrant into its fold.

Read more at: 5 Tejas in Squadron colours to fly during next IAF Day sky party: DRDO - Oneindia

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## Grevion

I Hope it achieve FOC in march. Then we can focus on AMCA and tejas mk1A


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## SR-91

sathya said:


> So before sp2 is out, we will see BVR , gun firings & refuel probe from previous LSP s ?


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## Sri

Stephen Cohen said:


> Yes Every thing will be done for FOC purpose
> 
> SO that we can declare FOC ; there is a lot of criticism about FOC delays
> 
> Then we can see serial production start in right earnest
> 
> Also the maintenance people are getting trained
> and other preparatory work is also happening on a priority basis
> before Serial production is Ramped up
> 
> Please read this 5 Tejas in Squadron colours to fly during next IAF Day sky party: DRDO - Oneindia
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Squadron formation preparations in full swing Around 60 per cent work towards the formation of the Tejas Squadron is completed at Bengaluru. "The O-Level training to IAF technicians has been completed. The air crew training on mission simulator is likely to be completed by November this year. About 70 per cent of GSE/GHE (Ground Support Equipment/Ground Handling Equipment) procurement is also completed," he added.
> 
> The technical publications and flight manuals have already been delivered to the IAF. Initially, the IAF has planned to operate the aircraft from Bangalore and then shift to the permanent Tejas Squadron base in Sulur (Tamil Nadu). The IAF too has taken up a series of modernization work at Sulur to welcome the new entrant into its fold.
> 
> Read more at: 5 Tejas in Squadron colours to fly during next IAF Day sky party: DRDO - Oneindia




Frankly its not making sense as earlier Subramanium has said they will have 20 birds in IOC config. Also when the order is for IOC config [ initial order] then why is this deviation. Can someone senior enlighten me on whether IAF has changed its order?

My understanding is the birds for tests and the birds which are in prod are different. 
Tx.


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## Stephen Cohen

Sri said:


> Frankly its not making sense as earlier Subramanium has said they will have 20 birds in IOC config. Also when the order is for IOC config [ initial order] then why is this deviation. Can someone senior enlighten me on whether IAF has changed its order?
> 
> My understanding is the birds for tests and the birds which are in prod are different.
> Tx.



Things have changed with Balaji becoming ADA chief

What will the IOC planes do ; Only increase numbers with limited capabilities 

FOC planes bring full value for money

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## sathya

One good news is tejas flight testing started , although only with LSP4

all birds got grounded for nearly 2 months


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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/662103448217743360


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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## ConcealCarry

Really? give us a few more examples of multi tasking parts?



GURU DUTT said:


> thing is *tejas was design in a way that all its diffrent parts do multi tasking and cut wieght thru that (like landing gear used as air brake)* but deu to constant goal post changing by the IAF for LCA meant too many extra tellimatorry and testing equipment went into LCA and like its light wieght dint waranted for a very hefty & over engineared a twin tyre type landing gear (single tyre landing gear is good enof)
> 
> now with losing all that wieght a rearranging the avionicks more compactlli lots of extra space will be freed which will be utilised to pack in things like retractable IFR probe , on board oxygen gerating system extra power genrating equipment for AESA radar and AESA based EW suite and possiballi a compact internal IRST system + a new air intake system (i hope its DSI)and redisigned wings and all that on LCA MK1A


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## GURU DUTT

ConcealCarry said:


> Really? give us a few more examples of multi tasking parts?


there is enof litrature and video links for the same on the social media google/search yourself .....cheers mate


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## Water Car Engineer

Stephen Cohen said:


> Things have changed with Balaji becoming ADA chief
> 
> What will the IOC planes do ; Only increase numbers with limited capabilities
> 
> FOC planes bring full value for money




Where are you getting this from? I havent heard anything about that along those lines. I dont know how you can just change a planned acquisition of 20 pre-FOC birds right in the middle of it's production. HAL has some explaining to do. These guys handed 1 bird so far? Is that a joke?

Now we're hearing even the FOC wont be achieved because of the grounding.

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## knight11

Rehan khan 1 said:


> If you do some research on how many reports says over weight+ low fuel + drag vs those reports that deny these issues and include official IAF statements and coupled with fact that LCA is a meter short in length (than the others) and have to pack all the electronic equipment in tight airframe + India’s short experience on engineering and designing modern fighter aircraft on its own and reluctance of designer to confront critics, It’s not hard conclude that LCA is short on performance. Which is why foreign companies are offering to partner up in it, offering help and joint development. I know you doubt the aircraft but you don’t want to accept it.



Some People have done such research which you want.

A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft

Don't go with what some people is saying. Did you done the research, kindly show your research result.



Stephen Cohen said:


> @MilSpec @sathya
> 
> All planes will now be in FOC configuration
> Hence the delay in SP 2


what all planes -- Mk1 or Mk1a, Mk1 trainer, Mk1 naval ??



ConcealCarry said:


> Really? give us a few more examples of multi tasking parts?


example is Lca tejas flying in banglore showing its mettle, and giving a *** burn in pakistani member like you.
Thats twin work aka multitasking. understand now Shoo..

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## Ankit Kumar

Have the testing resumed or the fleet is still grounded. 

Also Are the NP1 2 are grounded too?


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## sathya

Ankit Kumar said:


> Have the testing resumed or the fleet is still grounded.
> 
> Also Are the NP1 2 are grounded too?




Yes all are grounded including naval and trainer variants

After 2 months of grounding , test flights started with LSP4 alone.


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## Sri

knight11 said:


> Some People have done such research which you want.
> 
> A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> Don't go with what some people is saying. Did you done the research, kindly show your research result.
> 
> 
> what all planes -- Mk1 or Mk1a, Mk1 trainer, Mk1 naval ??
> 
> 
> example is Lca tejas flying in banglore showing its mettle, and giving a *** burn in pakistani member like you.
> Thats twin work aka multitasking. understand now Shoo..



What I heard is that IAF is not interested in the current IAF version of Tejas MK1 and want Naval tejas (With modified landing gear for Airforce, space optimised, weight reduced ) as the base for MK1A as this airframe is less draggy. So going with current MK1 will not be useful in any case for induction.
Any thoughts? Can anyone confirm?


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## proud_indian

Sri said:


> What I heard is that IAF is not interested in the current IAF version of Tejas MK1 and want Naval tejas (With modified landing gear for Airforce, space optimised, weight reduced ) as the base for MK1A as this airframe is less draggy. So going with current MK1 will not be useful in any case for induction.
> Any thoughts? Can anyone confirm?



this is what mr. Prasun K. sengupta is saying

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## knight11

Sri said:


> What I heard is that IAF is not interested in the current IAF version of Tejas MK1 and want Naval tejas (With modified landing gear for Airforce, space optimised, weight reduced ) as the base for MK1A as this airframe is less draggy. So going with current MK1 will not be useful in any case for induction.
> Any thoughts? Can anyone confirm?



Where did you heard this ? and by whom ?
Navy want's more powerful power plant for flying with the useful load from the carrier. Modified landing gear for taking the impact of the crash landing on the carrier, more height due to short takeoff. Current MK1 was more than enough to fulfill the airforce requirement aka replacement of the Mig-21, but IAF with unknown reason wants all certification, and best of the qualities they gathered from the various brouchers they collected from various fighter planes. They could not wait for the block upgrade and want to have all the capabilities from the day one for the indigenous fighter plane, but don't show such lineancies toward the exported jets such as jaguar, mirrage 2k, and MKI. Ironically, the features they want will make tejas the most featureful fighter planes of the IAF including HMDS, maws, EW suites, netcentric, high altitude/hotweather/cold weather certified, naval, trainer versions.

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## Sri

knight11 said:


> Where did you heard this ? and by whom ?
> Navy want's more powerful power plant for flying with the useful load from the carrier. Modified landing gear for taking the impact of the crash landing on the carrier, more height due to short takeoff. Current MK1 was more than enough to fulfill the airforce requirement aka replacement of the Mig-21, but IAF with unknown reason wants all certification, and best of the qualities they gathered from the various brouchers they collected from various fighter planes. They could not wait for the block upgrade and want to have all the capabilities from the day one for the indigenous fighter plane, but don't show such lineancies toward the exported jets such as jaguar, mirrage 2k, and MKI. Ironically, the features they want will make tejas the most featureful fighter planes of the IAF including HMDS, maws, EW suites, netcentric, high altitude/hotweather/cold weather certified, naval, trainer versions.



I have heard this from HAL Chaiwala . also this is mentioned by Prasun. The issue is that IAF version is too draggy and the airframe needs significant aerodynamic modifications to counter this. whereas the Navy version ( with gods grace) has been made less draggy, and its sub systems are also more or less tested. So IAF wants the Navy airframe (Since this is already developed and no extra time is needed to design) take out the navy landing gear, arrester hook etc and make it suited for airforce.
IAF was thrilled itseems when they saw LCA navy's performance at Goa tests and were convinced that the airforce version should be based on this.
IAF wants the above said modifications which would take 1 year and do the flight testing, So that aircraft is available by mid 2017. Also the landing gear discussion which was discussed by Raju meant this itseems when he proposed MK1A to IAF.
This is Chaiwala info, So this may or may not be true

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## Sri

Sri said:


> I have heard this from HAL Chaiwala . also this is mentioned by Prasun. The issue is that IAF version is too draggy and the airframe needs significant aerodynamic modifications to counter this. whereas the Navy version ( with gods grace) has been made less draggy, and its sub systems are also more or less tested. So IAF wants the Navy airframe (Since this is already developed and no extra time is needed to design) take out the navy landing gear, arrester hook etc and make it suited for airforce.
> IAF wants the above said modifications which would take 1 year and do the flight testing, So that aircraft is available by mid 2017. Also the landing gear discussion which was discussed by Raju meant this itseems when he proposed MK1A to IAF.



I had document ( unable to trace it) was created by NAL which specifies the changes needed in IAF Tejas to canopy, wings etc to reduce the drag. this will improve the aerodynamics and give 20% better performance in transonic regime and also in range. 

This is first doc on changes: http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/dss/2009/main/2-CEMILAC.pdf
There is also another doc which specifically speaks about canopy changes proposed.

What IAF is asking is instead of doing all these changes to canopy etc. they want Navy version (which is already developed with these changes and can be tweaked to IAF needs)

The Biggest Concerns of IAF with Tejas were Drag, Weight, Maintenance.
Drag: this is addressed with LCA Navy which is a aerodynamically refined model and can be modified for IAF needs.
Weight : this is a progressive task and can be addressed to some extent with rearranging sub systems.
Maintenance: This needs rearranging sub-systems so that they can be accessed easily.

Since HAL and ADA were not ready to do these earlier and was giving jugaad solutions IAF jumped on to MK2. Parikar seems to have understood this problem and tried to find best solution under the curcumastances where in everyone is happy.



I could trace this doc: http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

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## sathya

What the heck ?

It looks like IAF is pretty poor in managing anything compared to navy

It better navy does that job for IAF 

Someone was saying, canopy changes proposed will increase 6% performance

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## Sri

sathya said:


> What the heck ?
> 
> It looks like IAF is pretty poor in managing anything compared to navy
> 
> It better navy does that job for IAF
> 
> Someone was saying, canopy changes proposed will increase 6% performance



Well IAF never had a say itseems (unlike Navy) and IAF was kept away from all decisions till 2007. Once they were on-board after 2007 things started changing rapidly. Since no one was listening to them, IAF was so frustrated that they tried to take over the whole HAL, which anyway did not materialize.
By the way IAF did have a design division in 1960s which was taken away and merged with HAL. So IAF was always an outsider who has to accept the product even when they do not have a proper say.

The second PDF which I have attached is the source for canopy changes needed and it says 20% improvement. This is already incorporated in LCA Navy


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## knight11

Sri said:


> What IAF is asking is instead of doing all these changes to canopy etc. they want Navy version (which is already developed with these changes and can be tweaked to IAF needs)



It was clear that for naval tejas, F-414 was needed, to be able to takeoff and fly with the useful wt for the carrier operation.
IAF took the Idea for the 414 for mk2 for more better aerodynamic charasterstic in STR, ITR, rateof climb and AoA.



Sri said:


> I have heard this from HAL Chaiwala . also this is mentioned by Prasun.


Prasun is not an aerodynamic expert or the official spoke person. What he is doing is expressing his concerned.
There is no perfect design for the plane in the world, but the plane is the best choice we make. Now we don't deny that LCA tejas somehow don't fulfill IAF ASQR (which she changed twice in the development timeframe) specially related to STR. While designing LCA tejas ADA could choose simply Su30 MKI design straightforward instead of Delta, tailless design but there are other requirements to fulfill other wise all the planes in the world would look like the same. The design for LCA was choosen to fulfill these requirement like size constrain, High altitude short runway capablity with full load.

What Cemilac is doing is that she proposed various improvement steps like nose cone plug extension and pylon reshaping.which can reduce the drag at sea level which is area of concern. R&D is the continuous process and there is no hard and fast rule for that and the improvement should continue as a process. Regarding LCA which was designed around Kaveri engine, now the powerplant is F404 which has less power thrust, so the reduction of drag and weight becomes more important. These design changes means that LCA needs more polishing, and big changes of airframe is not economical valid option now with more delay. 

Naval LCA design improvement is for the carrier operation like cannard for lifting its nose during takeoff and landing, and no relation with the IAF design.

For you just the reduction of the weight of the LCA, to its original wt l.e 5500 KG will do the wonders and would be able to fulfill the IAF ASR requirement, pls refer milspec post how it can be achieed, just few pages behind.

Thanks and regards

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## Sri

knight11 said:


> It was clear that for naval tejas, F-414 was needed, to be able to takeoff and fly with the useful wt for the carrier operation.
> IAF took the Idea for the 414 for mk2 for more better aerodynamic charasterstic in STR, ITR, rateof climb and AoA.
> 
> 
> Prasun is not an aerodynamic expert or the official spoke person. What he is doing is expressing his concerned.
> There is no perfect design for the plane in the world, but the plane is the best choice we make. Now we don't deny that LCA tejas somehow don't fulfill IAF ASQR (which she changed twice in the development timeframe) specially related to STR. While designing LCA tejas ADA could choose simply Su30 MKI design straightforward instead of Delta, tailless design but there are other requirements to fulfill other wise all the planes in the world would look like the same. The design for LCA was choosen to fulfill these requirement like size constrain, High altitude short runway capablity with full load.
> 
> What Cemilac is doing is that she proposed various improvement steps like nose cone plug extension and pylon reshaping.which can reduce the drag at sea level which is area of concern. R&D is the continuous process and there is no hard and fast rule for that and the improvement should continue as a process. Regarding LCA which was designed around Kaveri engine, now the powerplant is F404 which has less power thrust, so the reduction of drag and weight becomes more important. These design changes means that LCA needs more polishing, and big changes of airframe is not economical valid option now with more delay.
> 
> Naval LCA design improvement is for the carrier operation like cannard for lifting its nose during takeoff and landing, and no relation with the IAF design.
> 
> For you just the reduction of the weight of the LCA, to its original wt l.e 5500 KG will do the wonders and would be able to fulfill the IAF ASR requirement, pls refer milspec post how it can be achieed, just few pages behind.
> 
> Thanks and regards




The changes needed for drag reduction are mentioned in the 2nd PDF which I have attached. Now does HAL/ADA is going to make these changes to LCA MK1 was the question and they were not planning for MK1, therefore IAF was not interested in taking many examples of MK1 and were insisting on MK2. What I understood from the talk is that drag is the differentiation here - if the drag is reduced then thrust can be felt adequate.

The other design which is already available with respect to airframe shaping is LCA Navy MK1 which has refined aerodynamics( I am not speaking about Cannards, and speaking about nose design and canopy). so IAF wants this shaping for IAF version. 
With respect to Weight this is going to be a progressive affair, so not much emphasis is given to this for MK1A. Hope I am clear.


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## satishkumarcsc

Sense prevailing at last.

Always wanted the Navy version to be taken up for MK2 as it will save a lot more time and money instead of building a new MK2. The world is moving on to 5th generation and designing a brand new 4th generation aircraft now is stupidity.

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## GURU DUTT

Sri said:


> I have heard this from HAL Chaiwala . also this is mentioned by Prasun. The issue is that IAF version is too draggy and the airframe needs significant aerodynamic modifications to counter this. whereas the Navy version ( with gods grace) has been made less draggy, and its sub systems are also more or less tested. So IAF wants the Navy airframe (Since this is already developed and no extra time is needed to design) take out the navy landing gear, arrester hook etc and make it suited for airforce.
> IAF was thrilled itseems when they saw LCA navy's performance at Goa tests and were convinced that the airforce version should be based on this.
> IAF wants the above said modifications which would take 1 year and do the flight testing, So that aircraft is available by mid 2017. Also the landing gear discussion which was discussed by Raju meant this itseems when he proposed MK1A to IAF.
> This is Chaiwala info, So this may or may not be true


what my "chirriya" told me is that DM & PM & IAF top brass responsible for LCA programme have agrred to modify the current tejas by

1.redisigning a few parts in its body

2. slight modifictaions in its wings & air intake (i personally want to see DSI enabelled F/A-18 E F type)

3.repakaging the avionicks after taking owt all testing & tellmatory insturments and there housings and harnesses

4.putting a new AESA based radar & EW suite and a new chaffs and flairs dispensing system

5.newlight and modified landing gear & rearanging and taking owt all unecesary counterwieghts

6.new version of compact IFR probe and oxygen genrating system

and yes DM wants to give more effort and money into R&D of AMCA & AURA than MK2 .. i may be wrong

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## Sri

GURU DUTT said:


> what my "chirriya" told me is that DM & PM & IAF top brass responsible for LCA programme have agrred to modify the current tejas by
> 
> 1.redisigning a few parts in its body
> 
> 2. slight modifictaions in its wings & air intake (i personally want to see DSI enabelled F/A-18 E F type)
> 
> 3.repakaging the avionicks after taking owt all testing & tellmatory insturments and there housings and harnesses
> 
> 4.putting a new AESA based radar & EW suite and a new chaffs and flairs dispensing system
> 
> 5.newlight and modified landing gear & rearanging and taking owt all unecesary counterwieghts
> 
> 6.new version of compact IFR probe and oxygen genrating system
> 
> and yes DM wants to give more effort and money into R&D of AMCA & AURA than MK2 .. i may be wrong



Hi, Are you sure about obogs? as I haven't heard about this. When I asked about this they said the fighter is for very short distance and obogs may not add much value. ofcourse this will improve the turnaround time

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## knight11

Sri said:


> Hi, Are you sure about obogs? as I haven't heard about this. When I asked about this they said the fighter is for very short distance and obogs may not add much value. ofcourse this will improve the turnaround time



How much short distance. LCA tejas can fly without drop tank upto 1700KM. With 3 drop tanks up to 3200KM, and with aerial refuel tank ---??km. By the way obogl does help in reducing the wt during the takeoff.

I will answer to your links provided later, right now I am little bit busy.

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## Sri

knight11 said:


> How much short distance. LCA tejas can fly without drop tank upto 1700KM. With 3 drop tanks up to 3200KM, and with aerial refuel tank ---??km. By the way obogl does help in reducing the wt during the takeoff.
> 
> I will answer to your links provided later, right now I am little bit busy.



The max normal duration of the flight is around 1.5 to 2 hours since it will be primarily used for air patrolling and point defense. So this is what I believe they meant. of-course if something like this can be added by 2018 to MK1A then it would always be a pleasant surprise . I agree with your point that every design is a compromise and so is Tejas. but what I was speaking about is refinement not design.

PS. The sources I spoke to could be wrong or I might have understood it wrong, anyway its good for discussion.


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## khanasifm

?????????????

India To Boost LCA Order; AF Questions Its Capabilities


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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## Sri

khanasifm said:


> ?????????????
> 
> India To Boost LCA Order; AF Questions Its Capabilities



Everybody in Airforce, MOD knows that its meant for low end of the spectrum and fits that bill pretty well. But In india there is a lobby for foreign products and an army of paid news reporters. So we'll keep hearing this garbage from time to time. Its better to ignore and move on.


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## halupridol

according to someone i know in HAL,in all probability foc will be delayed,,,,,,,,,,,,yet again


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## Water Car Engineer

halupridol said:


> according to someone i know in HAL,in all probability foc will be delayed,,,,,,,,,,,,yet again



This is week old news, this is due to the grounding of the Tejas for like the couple of months. Sucks.


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## ultron

No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.


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## egodoc222

This is my 1000th post...I wanted to post here!!
Regarding tejas mk1a...did we order Israeli aesa radar yet?

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## ultron

No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.


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## kaykay

ultron said:


> No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.


Kitni baar post karoge? Anyway One aircraft is inducted while other 3 will join soon before squadron formation.

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## ultron

No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.


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## ultron

No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.


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## AMCA

ultron said:


> No SP-2. One plane does not a squadron make.



It sure does. Who said it does not. Every aircraft in the squadron counts and the number always starts with 1

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## zebra7



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## ultron

AMCA said:


> It sure does. Who said it does not. Every aircraft in the squadron counts and the number always starts with 1




A squadron is at least 12 planes. Just like 1 soldier does not a squad make, 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## sathya

zebra7 said:


>




LCA navy is significantly bigger than LCA airforce.

I can predict now itself, IAF is going to ask for modification later in the lines of LCA navy .

---------------

LCA navy looks lovely.. Some resemblance to ? Rafale

And hope LCA navy mk2 is developed ahead of airforce LCA
Have to apply the lessons learnt .

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## AMCA

ultron said:


> A squadron is at least 12 planes. Just like 1 soldier does not a squad make, 1 plane does not a squadron make.



Its a Squadron in the making. You have 1 aircraft delivered and11 more to go.. The squadron has not been commissioned yet.

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## GURU DUTT

sathya said:


> LCA navy is significantly bigger than LCA airforce.
> 
> I can predict now itself, IAF is going to ask for modification later in the lines of LCA navy .
> 
> ---------------
> 
> LCA navy looks lovely.. Some resemblance to ? Rafale
> 
> And hope LCA navy mk2 is developed ahead of airforce LCA
> Have to apply the lessons learnt .


i hope it also has DSI tech

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## sathya

GURU DUTT said:


> i hope it also has DSI tech



Another article saying rafale tech to be transferred for LCA . Including air intakes. So no DSI


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## ultron

The US wants to control India and won't deliver F404 engines so India cannot build Tejas.


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## AMCA

ultron said:


> The US wants to control India and won't deliver F404 engines so India cannot build Tejas.



Utter Foolishness. Do you think its only the US that makes Jet Engines?


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## SQ8

AMCA said:


> It sure does. Who said it does not. Every aircraft in the squadron counts and the number always starts with 1


Sure... just that it makes it pretty useless.
There was no need to create a squadron until enough aircraft were available. This just seems an exersize in public relations to satisfy the Babus and press on the Tejas rather than any useful activity.



AMCA said:


> Utter Foolishness. Do you think its only the US that makes Jet Engines?


The one that is used on the Tejas, and the Mk2.. and supposedly even the AMCA..

YEs

Please dont forget that it was an engine issue that screwed up the Tejas program in the first place.

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## GURU DUTT

ultron said:


> The US wants to control India and won't deliver F404 engines so India cannot build Tejas.


dont worry @Superboy USA is already selling us F404 & F414 along with all those techs your true nation alwats wanted to get from USA + the best Radar & EW suite courtsey Israel and France & UK for tejas and many other indian projects and ALL YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT IS SULK .....


PS.. we are also getting the world famous DSI tech

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## PakEye

ultron said:


> The US wants to control India and won't deliver F404 engines so India cannot build Tejas.


I strongly belive this will be a mile stone for LCA teja self reliance future progress.


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## AMCA

Oscar said:


> Sure... just that it makes it pretty useless.
> There was no need to create a squadron until enough aircraft were available. This just seems an exersize in public relations to satisfy the Babus and press on the Tejas rather than any useful activity.
> 
> 
> The one that is used on the Tejas, and the Mk2.. and supposedly even the AMCA..
> 
> YEs
> 
> Please dont forget that it was an engine issue that screwed up the Tejas program in the first place.



Wow Mod. You are doing a terrific job here countering Anti trolls rather than those who are spamming the thread. Isnt spamming against forum rules?

As I have already clarified in my previous post. The squadron has not been commissioned.We dont even know where SP-1 is stationed currently.

Yes! It was the linking of Engine which delayed the LCA Program. Like I said, US is not the only manufacturer of Jet Engines. "IF" they stop, we definitely do have the option to tweak our aircraft to suit alternate profiles.


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## ultron

No SP-2. I guess the US stopped engine delivery to put pressure on India to cancel LCA program and buy US planes means more $ for the US military industrial complex.


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## AMCA

ultron said:


> No SP-2. I guess the US stopped engine delivery to put pressure on India to cancel LCA program and buy US planes means more $ for the US military industrial complex.



We already have sufficient number of Engines to meet the IAF's initial requirement and maintenance.


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## kaykay

ultron said:


> No SP-2. I guess the US stopped engine delivery to put pressure on India to cancel LCA program and buy US planes means more $ for the US military industrial complex.





ultron said:


> No SP-2. I guess the US stopped engine delivery to put pressure on India to cancel LCA program and buy US planes means more $ for the US military industrial complex.


And that news is directly coming from your rear.....nah?

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## GURU DUTT

ultron said:


> No SP-2. I guess the US stopped engine delivery to put pressure on India to cancel LCA program and buy US planes means more $ for the US military industrial complex.


hey @Superboy guess what you have been reported for spamming on an indian thread ...... cheers mate


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## ultron

No SP-2. One plane so far.


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## GURU DUTT

ultron said:


> No SP-2. One plane so far.


 dont worry @Superboy hardly matters till FOC is achived till then chill


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## Abingdonboy

Fittign that this should happen in Bangaluru....

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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> Fittign that this should happen in Bangaluru....



Trainer model of Navy ?


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## satishkumarcsc

sathya said:


> Trainer model of Navy ?


More or less like the MK 2

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## kalibr



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## rockstarIN

Lca may perform at Baharain air show in early 2016 as per reports . And it will be an 8 g 24 aoa , ,not like aero india

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## SR-91

rockstarIN said:


> Lca may perform at Baharain air show in early 2016 as per reports . And it will be an 8 g 24 aoa , ,not like aero india



I'm dying to see maneuverability of LCA. I would love to see LCA pull 8 G's.


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## kaykay

rockstarIN said:


> Lca may perform at Baharain air show in early 2016 as per reports . And it will be an 8 g 24 aoa , ,not like aero india


Its 26° AoA now.....

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

I bet PAF pilots would have started buying tickets to get a glimpse of LCA.. 

Hope everything goes well and it performs well..

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## knight11

@PARIKRAMA @nForce @Abingdonboy @kaykay @sathya 

I am bit confused with the future of MK-2.

So did MK2 development, have been stoped



> "We are now hopeful of an order for 100 Mark 1-As before the end of the current financial year," DRDO chief Dr S Christopher told MAILTODAY. The meeting of the governing council headed by Dr Christopher follows the September 23 signing of new aircraft specifications between the four key stakeholders in the three-decade old LCA project-the IAF, DRDO, MoD and HAL. The agreement has launched the struggling LCA Tejas project on a new trajectory. Designs of the Mark-1A will be complete by 2017 and the modified aircraft could enter production beginning 2019.
> HAL is currently supplying the IAF with 20 variants of the basic LCA Tejas. The DRDO chief says the Mark 1-A Tejas will address other shortcomings indicated by the IAF like the lack of an Active Electronically Scanned Array or AESA radar and Electronic Support Measures (ESM) which will be carried on a pod instead of within the fuselage. The modified Mark 1-A was proposed by HAL this year as a stop gap because the Mark 2 with uprated GE-414 engines and a lengthened fuselage, will not be ready for induction before 2024.
> 
> "Re-positioning of major (aircraft) aggregates for the ease of maintenance has nullified the requirement to stretch the fuselage that would have increased aerodynamic drag to such levels as to require the more powerful F-414 engine. This negates the requirement to have LCA Mk2 for the IAF," says Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retired) of the Centre for Air Power Studies. Significantly, HAL has assured the IAF that it will double production capacity in its Bengaluru facility to roll out 16 aircraft each year.
> The Mark 1-A is meant to arrest the alarming shortfall in the IAF's fighter squadron fleet from a sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons to the present 35 squadrons. These squadrons are projected to further dip by 2022 when over 200 MiG-21 and MiG-27s are phased out. The ADA is now designing the LCA's Mark 2 variant only for the Indian Navy and the design will be ready by 2022. The agency also hopes to complete designs of a generation 4.5 Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft by 2022.
> 
> Govt to order 100 Tejas aircrafts for IAF- Business News





> Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha in this recently held Press Conference indirectly confirmed that Airforce is no longer interested in MK-II Program and might walk away from the project and instead support India's 5th Generation AMCA fighter aircraft program.
> 
> For long Defence Analyst had linked MK-II Program requirements to Indian Navy which wanted a Single-engined equipped Tejas to have higher thrust class of jet engine so that it could allow aircraft to carry a decent payload from an aircraft carrier at sea which IAF saw has an opportunity to demand better performance aircraft then in its current configuration.
> 
> Speaking to ADA engineer in Aero India earlier this year it was confirmed that MK-2 contrary to popular beliefs will not address larger operational radius but will only improve on better performance and better indigenisation and Better Cockpit layout and Avionics.
> 
> The redesigned airframe of single engined Tejas MK-2 will be developed on parallel to AMCA which will see mating of 110kN engine with the first Prototype by the end of 2019 as planned by DRDO and ADA. HAL was hell bent and strongly opposed development of the MK-2 project and Questioned need raised by IAF since many of the key demands asked by airforce could be made available in MK-1 airframe itself which will allow HAL to get more orders and streamline production of Tejas MK-1.
> 
> Sources close to idrw.org have informed that Airforce has not walked out of MK-2 project and it is pretty much onboard it, but will be reviewing MK-1A project where HAL has promised to remove technical deficiencies of MK-1 and also agreed to introduce 4 key requirements like new Aesa Radar, IFR, EW Suite and New BVR missiles while reducing its over engineered components while maintaining safety aspect which will lead to reduction of overhaul weight of the aircraft and also improve its maintainability.
> 
> Airforce will soon take a Call on the MK-2 program in a year or two after much deliberation with all Concerned parties and after review of MK-1A said same source and Developers too will decide which Variant of MK-2 (Naval or Airforce ) will be built first depending on user interest. Indian Navy is only one who has committed requirements of 56 aircrafts from MK-2 Project and IAF had earlier committed 86 aircrafts which might be reviewed after the performance of MK-1A aircraft is gauged by air force after its first flight in 2017.
> 
> Recent plans of Airforce to place larger orders for MK-1/MK-1A will allow breathing space for MK-2 developers which will allow them to explore possibilities of incorporating technologies from ongoing development research work on 5th generation fighter jet programs like AMCA and FGFA leading to better performance Tejas aircrafts which will keep it technological relevant platform post 2030 before AMCA Production takes over
> 
> http://idrw.org/questions-on-status-quo ... more-76188

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## Shankranthi

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @nForce @Abingdonboy @kaykay @sathya
> 
> I am bit confused with the future of MK-2.
> 
> So did MK2 development, have been stoped



Stop taking the IAF chief's world so seriously. They have lost their credibility LONG back.


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## sharma1111

Shankranthi said:


> Stop taking the IAF chief's world so seriously. They have lost their credibility LONG back.


MK-2 for Naval version is being supported by Indian navy . They will buy 100 if HAL can produce them. who cares if IAF buys them or not.

Guys the problem is with HAL. Last 12 month and they have not managed to produce 1 air craft.


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## knight11



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## saddam bhatti

halupridol said:


> congrats,,,,,,,ab yeh thread bhi 500 page chaleg,,,usme koi shaq nahi,
> par tab tak lca induct hoga ya nahi,,,wo sure nahi ha


Tejas agle 5 sal be nai operational ho ga


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## kaykay

saddam bhatti said:


> Tejas agle 5 sal be nai operational ho ga


Koi baat nahi...6th saal me ho jayega. Problem?



knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @nForce @Abingdonboy @kaykay @sathya
> 
> I am bit confused with the future of MK-2.
> 
> So did MK2 development, have been stoped


Could be. Though it will depend on MK-1A. mk-2 will only offer greater combat radius and a bit more load than mk-1A but avionics and other stuffs will be more or less same.

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## rockstarIN

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @nForce @Abingdonboy @kaykay @sathya
> 
> I am bit confused with the future of MK-2.
> 
> So did MK2 development, have been stoped




So far I understand(my understanding only though), 

-IAF wants replacement (Mig-21,27) which should be more of a 'higher end' LCA--not like MIg-21 or LCA Mk-1. As per IAF understanding our lower end fighter will have to face off with J-10B over our as well as Chinese air space. Means more endurance.

But Mk-2 will come only after 2024-26, we need jets to fill-hence they might go for MK-1 with AESA as a stop gap till they get Mk-2 as well as squadron number addition(approved strength of 42). But Navy will surely go for 100+ Mk2.

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## knight11

kaykay said:


> Could be. Though it will depend on MK-1A. mk-2 will only offer greater combat radius and a bit more load than mk-1A but avionics and other stuffs will be more or less same.


It is been clear that MK-2 won't be designed for the greated combat radius, rather for better and superior performance.



Shankranthi said:


> Stop taking the IAF chief's world so seriously. They have lost their credibility LONG back.


So should I should start taking your words seriously.

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## Shankranthi

knight11 said:


> So should I should start taking your words seriously.



I don't give a $hit either way.


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## knight11

saddam bhatti said:


> Tejas agle 5 sal be nai operational ho ga



First post and such a worst start.
FOC is more of the certification process, even F-35 is not FOC certified, but induction could be started. And development keeps on going for a fighter plane e.g F-22 raptor development continues to provide it more capabilities after 30 years of induction and Grippen NG continues after 35 years of Showdown. Its IAF demand, that they want the LCA to have full certification and capabilities fully capable from the first day of the induction. Study and Understand the whole concept before opening your mouth like Buffalo and chant "AAOOOO"

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @nForce @Abingdonboy @kaykay @sathya
> 
> I am bit confused with the future of MK-2.
> 
> So did MK2 development, have been stoped


What i understand is that the IAF like LCA Navy Mark1 bird which has better capability over its own IAF Mark1 version. So the IAF Mark 1A incorporates those specs from Navy Mark1 and the upgrades. (read in various forums, the fumbling of mark1 between IAF/Navy birds in speeches and what PSK had clarified in his blog)

Originally IAF was more keen on MK2 version with higher thrust and a bigger load carrier of ordinance and improved performance. But subsequently to Mark1A 100 orders IAF is just waiting and watching how the mark2 of naval LCA develops out. The reason being the timelines quoted by HAL, the issue of openly criticising lack of orders and most importantly inability to make Mark 2 before 2024 era citing lack of manpower (as reported in various press reports) is viewed as very negative attitude of HAL by IAF. So, i personally believe IAF is now waiting to see order execution and the actual performance of Mark1A aircraft plus the product rolled out mas Mak2 navy to verify the claims of HAL and performance delivery.

IMHO, HAL made a mistake with those two claims of inability to make Mark2 before 2024 citing lack of resources and asking for orders of Mark1 variant and later saying upgraded Mark1A by 2017-18 timeframe. DM MP is clear we should have Tejas in large numbers. Even i agree that so order for Tejas was always in cards. What this negative views by HAL for orders has made sure in future most aircraft programs in this country or perhaps majority will see HAL as a minor partner and see more heavier pvt sector dependency. 

PErsonally i dont see HAL producing 16 birds very soon and hence these 100 birds will take 10 years for delivery. That to me is utter wastage and perhaps actually detrimental for IAF. But then Tejas is a necessity and we cant change that fact. Wish MOD/GOI could be a little more stringent with HAL and admonish them for lack of actual performance versus askking for orders like this.

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## knight11

What about the development of MK-2. With the order of 100 MK1A now, which will be the replacement of the MIG-21 which will be phrased out from 2017 onwards, the other contendor for phrasing out is MIG-27UPG. Without the allotment of the MONEY, what will be outcome of the MK-2 and MK-2 will remain as the proposed one. IAF should create board compromises of the technical members from the IAF, who take the lead and the responsibilites to work with DRDO,HAL, IAF, MOD and GOI to create the requirement on the basis of the future requirement taking care of the strategic, military, and technical problems, and should work not only for the development of military gears, but also the technologies, and the educational institution in the country.

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> What about the development of MK-2. With the order of 100 MK1A now, which will be the replacement of the MIG-21 which will be phrased out from 2017 onwards, the other contendor for phrasing out is MIG-27UPG. Without the allotment of the MONEY, what will be outcome of the MK-2 and MK-2 will remain as the proposed one. IAF should create board compromises of the technical members from the IAF, who take the lead and the responsibilites to work with DRDO,HAL, IAF, MOD and GOI to create the requirement on the basis of the future requirement taking care of the strategic, military, and technical problems, and should work not only for the development of military gears, but also the technologies, and the educational institution in the country.



I don think IAF completely threw out Mark 2 program. What they may have done is instead of parallel development may have asked Navy Mark2 to be priortised first. A good way to look at progress of Mark 2 program would be to see the GE414 EPE or upgraded version contract with India. Presently i am not seeing any numbers there nor any big commitment announcement. Its a solid indicator of how Mark2 (Navy/IAF) is progressing.

About money allocation i think IN is already properly invested and with priortization i guess its more judicious and efficient way of money usage. If IAF version is finally going to borrow the naval version better develop naval version first instead of parallel development, wasting of resources especially manpower and money.

Ex navy people are properly sitting in shipyards management and are overseeing a major push for capability development and delivery for IN orders. HAL i am not sure can have all IAF or major IAF ex or present people on board as being a govt body, at best a nominee director can come in not major changes. A better way is to slowly increase private MIC. May be use a company like Tata or Mahindra Aerospace and give tejas blueprints and stat a production line in pvt sector. Thats perhaps the best way of making HAL feel that times are changing and your delivery of key benchmarks is the way forward.


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## DRDO KALI 10000

knight11 said:


> First post and such a worst start.
> FOC is more of the certification process, even F-35 is not FOC certified, but induction could be started. And development keeps on going for a fighter plane e.g F-22 raptor development continues to provide it more capabilities after 30 years of induction and Grippen NG continues after 35 years of Showdown. Its IAF demand, that they want the LCA to have full certification and capabilities fully capable from the first day of the induction. Study and Understand the whole concept before opening your mouth like Buffalo and chant "AAOOOO"


I think its better to neglect these creatures instead of argue as there jealous took control of their senses, they will never understand.

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## Agent_47

knight11 said:


> What about the development of MK-2. With the order of 100 MK1A now, which will be the replacement of the MIG-21 which will be phrased out from 2017 onwards, the other contendor for phrasing out is MIG-27UPG. Without the allotment of the MONEY, what will be outcome of the MK-2 and MK-2 will remain as the proposed one. IAF should create board compromises of the technical members from the IAF, who take the lead and the responsibilites to work with DRDO,HAL, IAF, MOD and GOI to create the requirement on the basis of the future requirement taking care of the strategic, military, and technical problems, and should work not only for the development of military gears, but also the technologies, and the educational institution in the country.


There is a clear requirement for 14-15 sqd of light fighter.MK1 will only fill 6 the will has to be filled in one way or another.Going for new imported plane after inducting 120 LCAs will not makes sense.So, 8-9 sqd of LCA is certain be it Mk1A or Mk2.
Remember, IAF never insisted on MK2 it was Navy's idea IAF jumped in to make more reasons not to induct !, but this MoD gave them no choice. Mk1 already satisfied 90% of IAF's requirements.
Only question now is production capability of HAL. I believe in next few years there will be an entry of private entity in LCA production. it will solve all our problems.

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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> I don think IAF completely threw out Mark 2 program. What they may have done is instead of parallel development may have asked Navy Mark2 to be priortised first. A good way to look at progress of Mark 2 program would be to see the GE414 EPE or upgraded version contract with India. Presently i am not seeing any numbers there nor any big commitment announcement. Its a solid indicator of how Mark2 (Navy/IAF) is progressing.



You fails to understand, what I want to comprehend. First every thing is Hosh wag for Me. 99 F414 engine ordered for MK-2. Here check this link
India to get Ge’s F414-INS6 engines later this year for Tejas MKII

According to this link first batch of F-414 engine is likely to come in September this year.

F-404 engine production have been stopped and for the further order, you have to give the advance order, so that the production of F-404 could be started to fulfill the Indian order.

Is it so simple to first order 99 F414 engine, and then cancel such order, and then order 404 engine.

Parallel development is different things, e.g ADA could work on mk-2 version and then propose IAF for further development, but what is the IAF role in its development, Does IAF have issued any ASR for its MK-2 development, and have she alloted any funds for its development. 
MK-2 is not only the engine upgradation, but also change in fuselarge, change in airframe design, and needs full set of testiing and certification. Also the modular design and better maintainace design aspect.



PARIKRAMA said:


> About money allocation i think IN is already properly invested and with priortization i guess its more judicious and efficient way of money usage. If IAF version is finally going to borrow the naval version better develop naval version first instead of parallel development, wasting of resources especially manpower and money.



MK-2 naval and MK-2 IAF are two different project, taken by two different teams, and navy have alloted its 1000 crore rs on its development. How ever how could you claim that IAF is waiting for Naval Tejas MK-2 to prerform, which will be having different design and different requirement all together. Also does Navy have make it clear that the Naval Tejas MK-2 will be used as the carrier fighter plane, or they just using LCA as the tech demonstrator, for its Naval AMCA in future, because they seems to be more interested in Mig 29K, and in future Naval Rafale or F-35C.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Ex navy people are properly sitting in shipyards management and are overseeing a major push for capability development and delivery for IN orders. HAL i am not sure can have all IAF or major IAF ex or present people on board as being a govt body, at best a nominee director can come in not major changes. A better way is to slowly increase private MIC. May be use a company like Tata or Mahindra Aerospace and give tejas blueprints and stat a production line in pvt sector. Thats perhaps the best way of making HAL feel that times are changing and your delivery of key benchmarks is the way forward.



Pvt companies like TATA and Mahindra Aerospace could manufacture Tejas efficiently, but they are the pvt entity and will only work better if they have the definate, and fixed order, after all they are meant to earn profit. Investing in market, which don't give them confidence that they will get the future orders on regular basis, why would they invest money on land, set up the industries, trained labours, and importing and setting up tools and equipment.

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## sathya

zebra7 said:


>



@knight11 

I believe we are going to follow Rafale development model.

Naval mk2 first, airforce derivative from it.
Until then 100 mk1p.

Latest talks about undercarriage , air inlet and few others technology transfers from rafale indicates it will take more time for a major upgradation .

Essentially we will have something like single engine rafale with GE f414.

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## Indian Patriot

Enough of Tejas, it was a failure and will go down as failure. There are problems in the design of LCA which cannot be rectified without redesigning the whole aircraft from start.


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## knight11

Indian Patriot said:


> Enough of Tejas, it was a failure and will go down as failure. There are problems in the design of LCA which cannot be rectified without redesigning the whole aircraft from start.


You are on the wrong thread, start your own project and design the new aircraft from the start and start another thread and feel free to name it whatever you like like IP-18, IP-19, IP-20 or IP-17 and Good Luck.

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## Indian Patriot

knight11 said:


> You are on the wrong thread, start your own project and design the new aircraft from the start and start another thread and feel free to name it whatever you like like IP-18, IP-19, IP-20 or IP-17 and Good Luck.



Troll somewhere else.


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## knight11

Indian Patriot said:


> Troll somewhere else.


LOLZ you should be told this and you should understand well. You have nothing to add in this thread except troll. Why are you posting here.

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## Indian Patriot

knight11 said:


> LOLZ you should be told this and you should understand well. You have nothing to add in this thread except troll. Why are you posting here.



You are a shameless troll who still refuses to make amends after being rebuked by slav defence. You are just a waste of time and space. Your knowledge on military and defense related matters is non-existent. 

I should do now what I should have done to a miserable low life like you much earlier. Keep crying, no body is going to care.


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## knight11

Indian Patriot said:


> You are a shameless troll who still refuses to make amends after being rebuked by slav defence. You are just a waste of time and space. Your knowledge on military and defense related matters is non-existent.
> 
> I should do now what I should have done to a miserable low life like you much earlier. Keep crying, no body is going to care.


What rebuked by slav defence. @Slav Defence what does this poster is saying. Is there any thing I don't know. Pls make it clear then.


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## ultron

no SP-2 this year


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## kalibr



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## sharma1111

World's smallest combat jet's Mark-II avatar to be longer - Times of India
*



CA division general manager V Sridharan said: "It is keeping in mind all this (the long process for the changes) that we said we would accommodate 43 of the 57 requests for action (RFAs) in the MK-IA version, which will have the 404 engine. Now that it's been accepted and the standard of preparation (SOP) is frozen, we will go through with this for the 100-odd aircraft."

Click to expand...

*
*1. Tejas MK1 *

*price: 160 crore = 23.88 Mill $ @*current forex rate of 1 $ = 67.00
* Most of 43 RFAs will be accommodated from the fifth or sixth aircraft that is to be produced for the IAF. Does it mean SP7-SP20 will have many new features.*

*2. Tejas MK1A*

* price: 190 crore = 28.35 million $*
*100 MK1-A will have all 43 RFA*

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## ultron

No SP-2 this year. 1 plane so far. SP-1.


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## rational

ultron said:


> No SP-2 this year. 1 plane so far. SP-1.


@Superboy you should keep your knowledge & information only up to DSI don't need to venture into unknown territory

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## Water Car Engineer

Recent LCA fly bys

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## ultron

Any new of SP-2?


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## HariPrasad

ultron said:


> Any new of SP-2?



By March 2016


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## SRP

ultron said:


> Any new of SP-2?



Sorry NO DSI noodles for you.


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## ultron

It seems like no SP-2 this year. I'm guessing the US is withholding F404 engine and pressuring India to abandon Tejas and instead buy American fighter jets.


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## amardeep mishra

Indian Patriot said:


> Enough of Tejas, it was a failure and will go down as failure. There are problems in the design of LCA which cannot be rectified without redesigning the whole aircraft from start.



Are you an aerospace engineer? Kindly write down the design issues in LCA.I'm waiting

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## NKVD

amardeep mishra said:


> Are you an aerospace engineer? Kindly write down the design issues in LCA.I'm waiting


This Guy is Not even a genuine Indian Let other Formality apart

Don't waste your time on Such gem souls they don't need your insight or Perspective they are only here for flame baiting and Thread derailment Kindly don't waste you time on Such worthless Troll's.


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## DRDO KALI 10000

WHAT IS HAPPENING ? FLAG INDIAN BUT PATRIOT FOR PAKISTAN, "Enough of Tejas, it was a failure and will go down as failure. There are problems in the design of LCA which cannot be rectified" 
Hindustan ke kone se kone mai ase patroit's payda ho rahe hi jara batana ? apna address


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## nik22

Tejas doing regular sortie these days

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## Water Car Engineer

@gslv mk3

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> @gslv mk3



The for the info


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## gslv mk3

Water Car Engineer said:


> @gslv mk3



This was given in the annexure of the same CAG report

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## White Elephant

I had to join here because of this thread. I work as ground crew at IGI and have had quite a lot of conversations with people involved in aviation both military and civil. The highlight of Tejas related talk I had was with one Mr Vikas who is one of the several people working on Tejas.

Thanks to newspapers I was aware of the JF17 at that time and while talking to him I asked if he really thinks that a Tejas Mark 1 and Mark 1A take on the JF17 Block 2/3 and if it was developed with similar aircrafts in view.

His replay to my question was rather abrasive but informative non the less. According to him the Tejas in terms of design and composition is more comparative to the J10 than the JF17. I quickly reiterated what was written in the newspaper/mag that the JF17 Block 3 will have better avionics among other things but he in turn had an answer for the same "CFC materials". According to him the fact that LCA uses so much composite materials makes it more akin to J10 than any possible JF17 Block X.

I had asked him why they wanted to use f414 and not something else in the F series like the 101 he just said we want to keep the redesign to the minimum. Seemed like a weak response and more along the lines of stop bothering me. 

So there you have it j10 is seen akin to LCA but only by its makers, I don't think they can go against each other J10 being so much more heavier and powerful engine wise. But then again LCA weight reductions along with f414 might give a overall boost to Gripen levels.

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## Defender@@

White Elephant said:


> His replay to my question was rather abrasive but informative non the less. According to him the Tejas in terms of design and composition is more comparative to the J10 than the JF17. I quickly reiterated what was written in the newspaper/mag that the JF17 Block 3 will have better avionics among other things but he in turn had an answer for the same "CFC materials". According to him the fact that LCA uses so much composite materials makes it more akin to J10 than any possible JF17 Block X.


What a stupid remarks... Use of composite has three impacts...
1. Weight reduction to improve thrust to weight ration
2. Strength but that can also be achieved through steel
3 radar absorbant. Not all conposites are radar absorbant... And only composite has little impact on radar signals ... It is more woth design and coating... How jf17 has overcome these...

1. Jf17 thrust to weight ratio is 1.09 as told in paris air show and verified by vertical take offs.. This is humunous for light weight fighter which has interceptor or defense role..
2.Strength of jf17 is enough as it can take heave bombs and missiles such as cm400akg and 
3. Radar cross section of jf17 is already too low as a design feature... Inclusion of dsi...

Jf17 is not using composites to reduce but it has countered all disadvantages of not using composites... Furthermore go and compare specs of j10 ... It is comparative to f16 or in some case even higher ... Tejas is no way near to that ... Even role of j10 is somewhat near air superiority whereas of tejas and jf17 are of interceptor or defence... So wo th idiot on earth can compare tejas with j10... Use of composite material doesnot means that an air craft is very advance ... There are lot of other factors that effect the performance of air craft...


----------



## HariPrasad

White Elephant said:


> I had to join here because of this thread. I work as ground crew at IGI and have had quite a lot of conversations with people involved in aviation both military and civil. The highlight of Tejas related talk I had was with one Mr Vikas who is one of the several people working on Tejas.
> 
> Thanks to newspapers I was aware of the JF17 at that time and while talking to him I asked if he really thinks that a Tejas Mark 1 and Mark 1A take on the JF17 Block 2/3 and if it was developed with similar aircrafts in view.
> 
> His replay to my question was rather abrasive but informative non the less. According to him the Tejas in terms of design and composition is more comparative to the J10 than the JF17. I quickly reiterated what was written in the newspaper/mag that the JF17 Block 3 will have better avionics among other things but he in turn had an answer for the same "CFC materials". According to him the fact that LCA uses so much composite materials makes it more akin to J10 than any possible JF17 Block X.
> 
> I had asked him why they wanted to use f414 and not something else in the F series like the 101 he just said we want to keep the redesign to the minimum. Seemed like a weak response and more along the lines of stop bothering me.
> 
> So there you have it j10 is seen akin to LCA but only by its makers, I don't think they can go against each other J10 being so much more heavier and powerful engine wise. But then again LCA weight reductions along with f414 might give a overall boost to Gripen levels.



well come.

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## White Elephant

Defender@@ said:


> What a stupid remarks... Use of composite has three impacts...
> 1. Weight reduction to improve thrust to weight ration
> 2. Strength but that can also be achieved through steel
> 3 radar absorbant. Not all conposites are radar absorbant... And only composite has little impact on radar signals ... It is more woth design and coating... How jf17 has overcome these...
> 
> 1. Jf17 thrust to weight ratio is 1.09 as told in paris air show and verified by vertical take offs.. This is humunous for light weight fighter which has interceptor or defense role..
> 2.Strength of jf17 is enough as it can take heave bombs and missiles such as cm400akg and
> 3. Radar cross section of jf17 is already too low as a design feature... Inclusion of dsi...
> 
> Jf17 is not using composites to reduce but it has countered all disadvantages of not using composites... Furthermore go and compare specs of j10 ... It is comparative to f16 or in some case even higher ... Tejas is no way near to that ... Even role of j10 is somewhat near air superiority whereas of tejas and jf17 are of interceptor or defence... So wo th idiot on earth can compare tejas with j10... Use of composite material doesnot means that an air craft is very advance ... There are lot of other factors that effect the performance of air craft...



1. Thrust to Weight Ratio 0.95 "Search pac jf-17 org pk cant post links or maybe pac is wrong"
2. Same performance can be had with a composite *lighter *frame "Useful when the engine is weak"
3. His main point was RCS, LCA has had a LO side to its construction " Search drdo pub techfocus 2011 feb 202011%20 pdf cant post links"

LO is one of the main points for new gen fighter such as Gen5/6. Cant say how much better JF17 RCS signature will be using electronic pods but its estimated to be around 3-5 m2 and from what I had read Mig 21 is around 3 m2 also. Re-read what I wrote I don't think that a LCA can go against a J10 because its heavy and with a more powerful engine but both are multirole in nature. The T2W for J10 with WS-10B is said to be 1.16 and for LCA Mk1 its said to be 1.07 with f404. With weight shedding and an f414 the T2W will obviously increase.

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## H.B.

Tejas updates from Saurav Jha


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682115427678302208

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682115670570450944

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682115892868599808

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682116268128784384

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682116453051445248

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682116668491837440

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/682117030510637056

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## Mrc

White Elephant said:


> 1. Thrust to Weight Ratio 0.95 "Search pac jf-17 org pk cant post links or maybe pac is wrong"
> 2. Same performance can be had with a composite *lighter *frame "Useful when the engine is weak"
> 3. His main point was RCS, LCA has had a LO side to its construction " Search drdo pub techfocus 2011 feb 202011%20 pdf cant post links"
> 
> LO is one of the main points for new gen fighter such as Gen5/6. Cant say how much better JF17 RCS signature will be using electronic pods but its estimated to be around 3-5 m2 and from what I had read Mig 21 is around 3 m2 also. Re-read what I wrote I don't think that a LCA can go against a J10 because its heavy and with a more powerful engine but both are multirole in nature. The T2W for J10 with WS-10B is said to be 1.16 and for LCA Mk1 its said to be 1.07 with f404. With weight shedding and an f414 the T2W will obviously increase.




Tejas currently cannot pull more than 4 g.....
Did your source not enlighten you on that??


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## HariPrasad

White Elephant said:


> LO is one of the main points for new gen fighter such as Gen5/6. Cant say how much better JF17 RCS signature will be using electronic pods but its estimated to be around 3-5 m2 and from what I had read Mig 21 is around 3 m2 also. Re-read what I wrote I don't think that a LCA can go against a J10 because its heavy and with a more powerful engine but both are multirole in nature. The T2W for J10 with WS-10B is said to be 1.16 and for LCA Mk1 its said to be 1.07 with f404. With weight shedding and an f414 the T2W will obviously increase.




5 J 10 has fallen in 2015. Ut is unfit to mess against tejas. It may prove to a good bomber but it can not certainly mess with tejas. MK1A will see J10 much prior to J 10 can see it and fire a BVR.


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## Mrc

As a design flaw no counter measures can be placed on tejas... true or false??


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## rockstarIN

Mrc said:


> As a design flaw no counter measures can be placed on tejas... true or false??



Not only counter measures but weapons, missiles etc.

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## Mrc

ramaks said:


> it does 8+g and have aoa of 24+ but Foc version ll have Aoa of 28




Sure


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## Defender@@

White Elephant said:


> 1. Thrust to Weight Ratio 0.95 "Search pac jf-17 org pk cant post links or maybe pac is wrong"
> 2. Same performance can be had with a composite *lighter *frame "Useful when the engine is weak"
> 3. His main point was RCS, LCA has had a LO side to its construction " Search drdo pub techfocus 2011 feb 202011%20 pdf cant post links"
> 
> LO is one of the main points for new gen fighter such as Gen5/6. Cant say how much better JF17 RCS signature will be using electronic pods but its estimated to be around 3-5 m2 and from what I had read Mig 21 is around 3 m2 also. Re-read what I wrote I don't think that a LCA can go against a J10 because its heavy and with a more powerful engine but both are multirole in nature. The T2W for J10 with WS-10B is said to be 1.16 and for LCA Mk1 its said to be 1.07 with f404. With weight shedding and an f414 the T2W will obviously increase.



JF17 T/W ratio is 1.09... Source:





Composite has very little impact on RCS so your all points are baseless as you are stating Tejas to be superior based on use of composite material ...


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## Ankit Kumar

Just wanted to know what happened to the two Technology Demonstrators? Are they still flying?


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## ANPP

Defender@@ said:


> JF17 T/W ratio is 1.09... Source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite has very little impact on RCS so your all points are baseless as you are stating Tejas to be superior based on use of composite material ...



Well said my friend, composite wont decrease RCS tremendously rather decrease the aerodynamic performance of fighter. But there are many circumstances inwhich both plane can be confronted. But ideally we just assume front-front confrontation and here even the slight decrease in RCS do help.


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## knight11

Mrc said:


> As a design flaw no counter measures can be placed on tejas... true or false??



No counter measures aka Internal Jammer -- is not in MK1 or MK1a, it will in a pod type i.e Elta EL/L 8222 Jammer Pod. Even MKI don't have an internal Jammer, and the only one in the whole IAF is the MIG-29UPG with the Virgilus Jammer.
It is due to the fact, when LCA project was started the technology at that time does not dictates internal jammer at that time, and now the space constrains in MK1 does not allow this. It will be addressed in MK-2 when AESA Jammer Virgilus EL-845 will be retrofitted, same which EF-2000 have. 

Got the Answer.



Defender@@ said:


> JF17 T/W ratio is 1.09... Source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite has very little impact on RCS so your all points are baseless as you are stating Tejas to be superior based on use of composite material ...



T/W ratio at what altitude, weapon load, fuel load, and speed.

During airshow, the plane performing is stripped to bare minimum, including removal of Radar, with little fuel because it has to give show for 10 MInute and offcource no weapons.So it just for the public consumption only.

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## Defender@@

knight11 said:


> T/W ratio at what altitude, weapon load, fuel load, and speed.
> 
> During airshow, the plane performing is stripped to bare minimum, including removal of Radar, with little fuel because it has to give show for 10 MInute and offcource no weapons.So it just for the public consumption only.


T/W ratio is always quoted at clean configuration and ideal conditions ... i.e. ground weight and full thrust ... So do you OEM quote MKI's T/W ratio with all the weapon load? Common come with a better argument ... A childish question like this would lead to next question is it at cruise speed or with after burner :p


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## knight11

Defender@@ said:


> T/W ratio is always quoted at clean configuration and ideal conditions ... i.e. ground weight and full thrust ... So do you OEM quote MKI's T/W ratio with all the weapon load? Common come with a better argument ... A childish question like this would lead to next question is it at cruise speed or with after burner :p



Its a question for you T/W ratio of JF-17 at what conditions what your source is telling. If that ratio is during the airshow, I had already explain, that during airshow, the fighter plane is bare stripped to the lowest wt. and optimised to get the full agility and high AoA to due the manuevour for the show which is very different that the tactical manuevours.


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## Defender@@

knight11 said:


> Its a question for you T/W ratio of JF-17 at what conditions what your source is telling. If that ratio is during the airshow, I had already explain, that during airshow, the fighter plane is bare stripped to the lowest wt. and optimised to get the full agility and high AoA to due the manuevour for the show which is very different that the tactical manuevours.


Read my first sentence of previous post again "T/W ratio is always quoted at clean configuration and ideal conditions" ... Similarly JF17 like every other plane is quoting its T/W ratio in clean configuration (i.e. without any additional load and maximum thrust) ... and same is the standard for quoting T/W ratio for all other air craft including MKIs,,,


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## Hindustani78

‘Tejas’ the latest and state of the art Light Combat Aircraft, the ‘Four plus’ generation and highly cost effective fighter aircraft. It is noteworthy that for the first time LCA- Tejas will be flying outside the country’s airspace at the Bahrain airshow to create history.


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## Defender@@

Hindustani78 said:


> ‘Tejas’ the latest and state of the art Light Combat Aircraft, the ‘Four plus’ generation and highly cost effective fighter aircraft. It is noteworthy that for the first time LCA- Tejas will be flying outside the country’s airspace at the Bahrain airshow to create history.


Do you know definition of 4+ generation ?
A plane rejected by its own airforce is claiming to be 4+ ... Tejas is only 4th generation is it uses fly by wire,,, for 4+ you have to wait for MK2 ... which is on drawing board ..


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## Hindustani78

Defender@@ said:


> Do you know definition of 4+ generation ?
> A plane rejected by its own airforce is claiming to be 4+ ... Tejas is only 4th generation is it uses fly by wire,,, for 4+ you have to wait for MK2 ... which is on drawing board ..



Tejas have been inducted in Indian Air Force and Tejas are going to replace MiG's in coming years.

Tejas are indigienous and MK2 production line have been started and this is the reason Goverment of India official news portal PIB has wrote Tejas 4+. Its official declaration from Ministry of Defence.


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## Ind4Ever

Defender@@ said:


> JF17 T/W ratio is 1.09... Source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite has very little impact on RCS so your all points are baseless as you are stating Tejas to be superior based on use of composite material ...


 Of course using composite material instead of regular gives huge advantage in RCS and in TW ratio. If you say no then I am not sure what to say


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## Mrc

knight11 said:


> No counter measures aka Internal Jammer -- is not in MK1 or MK1a, it will in a pod type i.e Elta EL/L 8222 Jammer Pod. Even MKI don't have an internal Jammer, and the only one in the whole IAF is the MIG-29UPG with the Virgilus Jammer.
> It is due to the fact, when LCA project was started the technology at that time does not dictates internal jammer at that time, and now the space constrains in MK1 does not allow this. It will be addressed in MK-2 when AESA Jammer Virgilus EL-845 will be retrofitted, same which EF-2000 have.
> 
> Got the Answer.
> 
> 
> 
> T/W ratio at what altitude, weapon load, fuel load, and speed.
> 
> During airshow, the plane performing is stripped to bare minimum, including removal of Radar, with little fuel because it has to give show for 10 MInute and offcource no weapons.So it just for the public consumption only.




Yea i got the answere ... which was exactly what i was saying by the way


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## Force Awakens

Eagerly waiting for Bahrain.


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## HariPrasad

Mrc said:


> Tejas currently cannot pull more than 4 g.....
> Did your source not enlighten you on that??



look troll. How pathetically wrong you ware. 

Tejas pilots pull 8 ‘g’ and beyond clearing critical FOC point | Page 2


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## ANPP

Defender@@ said:


> Do you know definition of 4+ generation ?
> A plane rejected by its own airforce is claiming to be 4+ ... Tejas is only 4th generation is it uses fly by wire,,, for 4+ you have to wait for MK2 ... which is on drawing board ..




Opps. The same organisation also rejected f-16 block 70! So why are you purchasing downgraded rejected fighter? Guess you dont have many choice!


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## Defender@@

ANPP said:


> Opps. The same organisation also rejected f-16 block 70! So why are you purchasing downgraded rejected fighter? Guess you dont have many choice!


India would have been most stupid if it had bought F16,, Pakistan has so much experience with F-16,, so that it knows its all weakness,, so only stupid would buy platform on which his enemies are more experienced... India did considered F16 which means it is 4++ generation ,,, furthermore,, F16 does not suits indian purpose as India needed heavy fighter i.e. double engined still India evaluated F16,,, that means F16 is too capable air craft ...



Hindustani78 said:


> Tejas have been inducted in Indian Air Force and Tejas are going to replace MiG's in coming years.
> 
> Tejas are indigienous and MK2 production line have been started and this is the reason Goverment of India official news portal PIB has wrote Tejas 4+. Its official declaration from Ministry of Defence.



Hahaha,,, its MK1 in production,,, MK2 is in testing ,, whereas MK2 is on paper,,,,, you don't know even your own development,, key board warrior ...



Ind4Ever said:


> Of course using composite material instead of regular gives huge advantage in RCS and in TW ratio. If you say no then I am not sure what to say


Composite material is very little impact on RCS ....



Defender@@ said:


> Hahaha,,, its MK1 in production,,, MK2 is in testing ,, whereas MK2 is on paper,,,,, you don't know even your own development,, key board warrior ...


Correction : MK1A is in testing


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## Mirza Jatt

I read in the newspaper today that Tejas wil be participating the Bahrain air show... its a local Hindi newsapaper, wanted to confirm on PDF but then this Pathankot attack happened.


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## thesolar65

Mirza Jatt said:


> I read in the newspaper today that Tejas wil be participating the Bahrain air show... its a local Hindi newsapaper, wanted to confirm on PDF but then this Pathankot attack happened.



*Yes and the Naval version also.*

*Government planning to export Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, to take part in Bahrain Airshow*

*NEW DELHI: India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will take part in Bahrain International Airshow this month to explore export potential in what will be the first time the indigenously developed plane will fly outside the Indian air space. 

Besides the fighter and naval version of Tejas, India will also showcase state-of-the-art airborne platforms and associated sensors and communication systems designed and developed by DRDO. 

During the Bahrain International Airshow, being held at Sakhir Airbase, Bahrain from January 21-23, DRDO along with some of its production partners is displaying India's strength in advanced defence technology areas, with the aim of exploring the potential of exporting these advanced systems to friendly countries in the region, an official statement said. 

The show will witness flying demonstration of the 'Tejas', the 'Four plus' generation and highly cost effective fighter aircraft, it added. 

The Indian Air Force plans to acquire 120 Tejas aircraft, with 100 of them having major modifications to its strike, radar, and mid air refuelling capabilities. 

Though the DRDO has developed a naval version of the Tejas, the Navy is seeking a much stronger engine besides other changes. 

It would be interesting to see which countries will evince interest in the light combat aircraft since Pakistan has already put out its aircraft JF 17, built in collaboration with China, in the open market. 

It is speculated that an Asian country has evinced interest in the Pakistani aircraft. 

The Comptroller and Auditor General of India had in May this year pointed out 53 significant shortfalls in Tejas Mark-I version that had reduced its operational capabilities and survivability. 

Meanwhile, Team Sarang of the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be showcasing the nation's prowess by flying ALH Dhruv helicopter, designed and developed by HAL during the Bahrain Airshow. 

The other indoor exhibits (scale down models) of DRDO for the Bahrain International Airshow 2016 include, anti tank guided missile Nag, Akash surface to air missile system, compact hull mounted sonar, air borne early warning and control system among others.*

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## Mirza Jatt

thesolar65 said:


> *Yes and the Naval version also.*
> 
> *Government planning to export Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, to take part in Bahrain Airshow*
> 
> *NEW DELHI: India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will take part in Bahrain International Airshow this month to explore export potential in what will be the first time the indigenously developed plane will fly outside the Indian air space. *
> 
> *Besides the fighter and naval version of Tejas, India will also showcase state-of-the-art airborne platforms and associated sensors and communication systems designed and developed by DRDO. *
> 
> *During the Bahrain International Airshow, being held at Sakhir Airbase, Bahrain from January 21-23, DRDO along with some of its production partners is displaying India's strength in advanced defence technology areas, with the aim of exploring the potential of exporting these advanced systems to friendly countries in the region, an official statement said. *
> 
> *The show will witness flying demonstration of the 'Tejas', the 'Four plus' generation and highly cost effective fighter aircraft, it added. *
> 
> *The Indian Air Force plans to acquire 120 Tejas aircraft, with 100 of them having major modifications to its strike, radar, and mid air refuelling capabilities. *
> 
> *Though the DRDO has developed a naval version of the Tejas, the Navy is seeking a much stronger engine besides other changes. *
> 
> *It would be interesting to see which countries will evince interest in the light combat aircraft since Pakistan has already put out its aircraft JF 17, built in collaboration with China, in the open market. *
> 
> *It is speculated that an Asian country has evinced interest in the Pakistani aircraft. *
> 
> *The Comptroller and Auditor General of India had in May this year pointed out 53 significant shortfalls in Tejas Mark-I version that had reduced its operational capabilities and survivability. *
> 
> *Meanwhile, Team Sarang of the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be showcasing the nation's prowess by flying ALH Dhruv helicopter, designed and developed by HAL during the Bahrain Airshow. *
> 
> *The other indoor exhibits (scale down models) of DRDO for the Bahrain International Airshow 2016 include, anti tank guided missile Nag, Akash surface to air missile system, compact hull mounted sonar, air borne early warning and control system among others.*



Thanks. This is a positive news.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## gowthamraj

[Q thisUOTE="Water Car Engineer, post: 8056845, member: 32471"]











[/QUOTE]
Is this SP-2?


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## sathya

gowthamraj said:


> [Q thisUOTE="Water Car Engineer, post: 8056845, member: 32471"]


Is this SP-2?[/QUOTE]

It's says 2014, so can't be sp2 I guess

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## Water Car Engineer

gowthamraj said:


> Is this SP-2?




No



Water Car Engineer said:


>

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## Dazzler

Has it flown in BIAS as yet?


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## rockstarIN

Dazzler said:


> Has it flown in BIAS as yet?



If you mean Bahrain show, the dates are 21-25th Jan 2016


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Has it flown in BIAS as yet?



This is the first time outside India.






*Unique features of N-LCA




*









*N-LCA NP2*










*N-LCA Mark 2*

You will see these changes on NP 3-4

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## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> This is the first time outside India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Unique features of N-LCA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *N-LCA NP2*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *N-LCA Mark 2*
> 
> You will see these changes on NP 3-4


When will we see NP3 ?


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> This is the first time outside India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Unique features of N-LCA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *N-LCA NP2*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *N-LCA Mark 2*
> 
> You will see these changes on NP 3-4




Gosh, i meant your LCA is participating at BIAS aishow so is there any video of its flight demo yet?


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## rockstarIN

Dazzler said:


> Gosh, i meant your LCA is participating at BIAS aishow so is there any video of its flight demo yet?


There were few videos bad quality which shows it is practicing. Surf back in this thread then you can get it.

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## Dazzler

rockstarIN said:


> There were few videos bad quality which shows it is practicing. Surf back in this thread then you can get it.



are not those practice runs before the real display? Waiting for the real thing


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Gosh, i meant your LCA is participating at BIAS aishow so is there any video of its flight demo yet?




Your post asked if it has flown in BIA yet, the show isnt even live.

Like rockstar said, there are some recent amateur videos, guessing it's practice? Cant say.

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## ni8mare



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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Your post asked if it has flown in BIA yet, the show isnt even live.
> 
> Like rockstar said, there are some recent amateur videos, guessing it's practice? Cant say.



that turn radius is huge, not to mention the reversal is pretty slow. I expected a little faster.


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## ANPP

Dazzler said:


> that turn radius is huge, not to mention the reversal is pretty slow. I expected a little faster.



ok. I will report this one to DRDO as soon as possible.

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## Dazzler

ANPP said:


> ok. I will report this one to DRDO as soon as possible.



thats a good one, by the way, you should report it to ADA and HAL instead of DRDO right?


----------



## bloo

I hope they don't give up on Kaveri.

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## Echo_419

Dazzler said:


> that turn radius is huge, not to mention the reversal is pretty slow. I expected a little faster.


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## Water Car Engineer

ni8mare said:


>

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## rockstarIN

New updated from Tarmak007

-Tejas will participate at Singapore Air show to be held on 16-21 Feb 2016, *if* they perform well in Bahrain Air show.

-Tejas to test fire Derby & python 5 at Jamnagar after returning from Bahrain Air show.

-LSP4 & LSP7 ferried to Muscat.

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## AnnoyingOrange

rockstarIN said:


> New updated from Tarmak007
> 
> -*Tejas will participate at Singapore Air show to be held on 16-21 Feb 2016,* *if* they perform well in Bahrain Air show.
> 
> -Tejas to test fire Derby & python 5 at Jamnagar after returning from Bahrain Air show.
> 
> -LSP4 & LSP7 ferried to Muscat.



This is good news.. More exposure...


----------



## rockstarIN

AnnoyingOrange said:


> This is good news.. More exposure...



provided they do well in Bahrain..!!


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## Abingdonboy

rockstarIN said:


> New updated from Tarmak007
> 
> -Tejas will participate at Singapore Air show to be held on 16-21 Feb 2016, *if* they perform well in Bahrain Air show.
> 
> -Tejas to test fire Derby & python 5 at Jamnagar after returning from Bahrain Air show.
> 
> -LSP4 & LSP7 ferried to Muscat.


The guys at ADA/HAL must be _*CERTAIN*_ FOC is imminent to be attending all these high profile events.

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## Echo_419

Abingdonboy said:


> The guys at ADA/HAL must be _*CERTAIN*_ FOC is imminent to be attending all these high profile events.



I agree & if they aren't,PMO should issue shoot at sight for these people

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## Abingdonboy

Echo_419 said:


> I agree & if they aren't,PMO should issue shoot at sight for these people


The way thig govt seems to be run, a request to go to Bahrain would have gone through the PMO so if the PMO and DM have signed off on it then it is looking good for FOC in the next few months.

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## SRP

First photo of Tejas at Sakhir Air Base. 






Tejas crew members.

Photo credit: Livefist






Tejas Pilots with Bahrain officials

Source: Nitin Gokhale

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## Abingdonboy

SRP said:


> First photo of Tejas at Sakhir Air Base.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas crew members.
> 
> Photo credit: Livefist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Pilots with Bahrain officials
> 
> Source: Nitin Gokhale


Interesting, both test pilots are Naval aviators.

The GoI/MoD/ADA/HAL are certainly taking the veil off the Tejas now not only these two airshows (potentially) but recently this was constructed in Minsk Circle, Bangaluru :




















@PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Interesting, both test pilots are Naval aviators.
> 
> The GoI/MoD/ADA/HAL are certainly taking the veil off the Tejas now not only these two airshows (potentially) but recently this was constructed in Minsk Circle, Bangaluru :
> 
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> @PARIKRAMA


Oh yes sir, bangloreans got a surprise when it was placed.. a very nice thing done by HAL too.. We must showcase what we have built with hard work of dedicated people.. and it looks majestic..



SRP said:


> First photo of Tejas at Sakhir Air Base.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas crew members.
> 
> Photo credit: Livefist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Pilots with Bahrain officials
> 
> Source: Nitin Gokhale



The first pic has 2 drop tanks right.. so internal fuel +2 drop tanks

*Nitin A. Gokhale* ‏@nitingokhale  2h2 hours ago
Both aircraft landed perfectly at Bahrain at 1650 local time after a brief stopover at Muscat for refuel.


The first pic looks stunning..Our Tejas finally in foreign shores...

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## Robinhood Pandey

Abingdonboy said:


> Interesting, both test pilots are Naval aviators.
> 
> The GoI/MoD/ADA/HAL are certainly taking the veil off the Tejas now not only these two airshows (potentially) but recently this was constructed in Minsk Circle, Bangaluru :
> 
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> @PARIKRAMA



Got a chance to see it last sunday.

This is placed exactly opposite to the HAL building on the way to Rajbhavan.

Signal was open so didnt get time to click any picture

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## PARIKRAMA

mikhail ivanovich said:


> Bullshit, Indian fighter with no wings to fly. In making for 30 years an yet to get So called FOC. This is what happens when someone tries to bite more than he can chew.. Bicchu ka mantar nahi jante aur saap k bil me hath dalte hain.



After almost 3 years in pdf as member with 18 posts, your opinion on LCA matters to all of PDF???

All bow as the king has arrived...

Pls reserve your criticism with proper justification of facts or else dont come and troll..

@waz @Horus @WAJsal @HRK

Pls do check this guy out.. Some one came back from almost 3 years hibernation to just criticise LCA

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## ultron

No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## AMCA

ultron said:


> No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.



Would 2 aircraft make a squadron? or are you planning to be going live until SP-20 joins the fleet?

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## Abingdonboy

ultron said:


> No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


Has anyone said it is in operational/Squadron service to date? 6-7 LCAs will be handed over to the IAF this year but before that FOC is being given the upmost attention. The first full LCA SQN will exsist by the middle of 2017- barely 18 months away.

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## Robinhood Pandey

ultron said:


> No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.




You no sense make.

Update your please translator

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## sathya

How would N LCA fare against AF LCA in a fight


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## AMCA

sathya said:


> How would N LCA fare against AF LCA in a fight



It would be a clear victory for NLCA in an air to air battle with air force variant. NLCA's built in aerodynamic enhancement over LCA will give it better maneuverability even in low speed. LEVCON's give it a higher angle of attack . NLCA boasts better environmental control system (ECS) and fuel system and to your surprise, only the LCA NP 2 is capable among LCA's to fire a BVR missile and I believe thats the one which would be used to fire derby.

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## Abingdonboy

AMCA said:


> only the LCA NP 2 is capable among LCA's to fire a BVR missile and I believe thats the one which would be used to fire derby.


Well this will be a moot point when operationalised bro as naturally every LCA (IAF or IN version) will have to have BVR capability when entering service. 

+ the two (IAF) LCAs when they return to Jamnaghar will be conducting Derby and Python firing tests.

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## AMCA

Abingdonboy said:


> Well this will be a moot point when operationalised bro as naturally every LCA (IAF or IN version) will have to have BVR capability when entering service.
> 
> + the two (IAF) LCAs when they return to Jamnaghar will be conducting Derby and Python firing tests.



Yeah Bro!! Its a moot point for both variants for they are graduating together. I still don't get why MOD chose two same versions for airshow when we have 4 different variants in our inventory?

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## Abingdonboy

AMCA said:


> . I still don't get why MOD chose two same versions for airshow when we have 4 different variants in our inventory?


1) NLCA prototypes are fewer in number vis a vis IAF variants.
2) NLCAs have an entirely seperate testing schedule (thanks to the need to take off and land on a carrier) and thus their own commitments.
3) Even if you have 4 variants you would only take 1 type- the second LCA going to Sakir is on standby for the LCA that will be undertaking the flying duties and there is a further LCA on standby back in India as a triple redundancy. Thus they all need to be the same version so as to be inter-changable.

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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> Interesting, both test pilots are Naval aviators.
> 
> The GoI/MoD/ADA/HAL are certainly taking the veil off the Tejas now not only these two airshows (potentially) but recently this was constructed in Minsk Circle, Bangaluru :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> @PARIKRAMA


I've seen it today...!!

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## scientien

ultron said:


> No SP-2. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


Please improve your english.
Also ever single plane makes a squadron.


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## mikhail ivanovich

PARIKRAMA said:


> After almost 3 years in pdf as member with 18 posts, your opinion on LCA matters to all of PDF???
> 
> All bow as the king has arrived...
> 
> Pls reserve your criticism with proper justification of facts or else dont come and troll..
> 
> @waz @Horus @WAJsal @HRK
> 
> Pls do check this guy out.. Some one came back from almost 3 years hibernation to just criticise LCA


Tujhko mirchi lagi toh mai kya karoon. Yes, you should take me seroiusly because nothing has changed in all those 3 years about Tejas. It was flying then and it is flying now with imported equipments onboard but was concieved to be a desi fighter with all desi equipment. Tejas has a history of disaster, Kaveri engine FAILED. A 3 decade old design. It's a maruti with BMW logo and engine causing it to fly uncontrolably.


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## PARIKRAMA

mikhail ivanovich said:


> Tujhko mirchi lagi toh mai kya karoon. Yes, you should take me seroiusly because nothing has changed in all those 3 years about Tejas. It was flying then and it is flying now with imported equipments onboard but was concieved to be a desi fighter with all desi equipment. Tejas has a history of disaster, Kaveri engine FAILED. A 3 decade old design. It's a maruti with BMW logo and engine causing it to fly uncontrolably.



Delighted with a reply.. The best you could come out with against Tejas...
Thank goodness the country is not filled with people who have such great views like yours...

BTW thanks for your reply and your views will be duly forwarded to HAL, ADA and MOD to work on the actionable...

Citizens like you are the torch bearers of our bright future. Thanks for dropping by in PDF and sparing crucial time to impart us such valuable knowledge...

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## mikhail ivanovich

PARIKRAMA said:


> Delighted with a reply.. The best you could come out with against Tejas...
> Thank goodness the country is not filled with people who have such great views like yours...
> 
> BTW thanks for your reply and your views will be duly forwarded to HAL, ADA and MOD to work on the actionable...
> 
> Citizens like you are the torch bearers of our bright future. Thanks for dropping by in PDF and sparing crucial time to impart us such valuable knowledge...


No offence .... Healthy criticism should be welcomed not bashed.


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## PARIKRAMA

mikhail ivanovich said:


> No offence .... Healthy criticism should be welcomed not bashed.


My dear Good Sir, i appreciate your view points.. But what you have used as tools for "healthy" criticism is not fully backed by facts... No doubt LCA is a long saga.. and I am sure you are very much aware of it.. But then again there are lot of positives.. For example Kaveri was not a failure.. Kaveri Engine did not meet the required thrust for LCA. But now Kaveri without afterburner stage known as Ghatak is going to power our UCAV programs.

The desi fighter is a myth as MIC development in our country has been so slow that LCA project could not be completed in next 15-20 years also if we depend on everything indigenous. We do not have expertise, technology or high quality manpower in our MIC for most of the critical tech for which we are dependent on imports. Thus why we should blame LCA. We should also blame our government, its policies and in ability to invest in R&D over last 3 decades to build a credible MIC to deliver 100% indigenous content on LCA..
We should also blame our PSU culture which runs at slow pace and is not coherent with high performance high professionalism based corporate world..

Its a multitude of factors.. and blaming LCA alone is a myopic view to the actual issue which we never wish see..

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## mikhail ivanovich

@PARIKRAMA, agreed that Tejas was more of a policy failure than technical failure. Agreed that it was the fault of the respective government and our armed forces too that it has asked too much from Tejas which was designed to be a 3rd gen fighter and now is a 4+ gen fighter as per international aviation experts. No doubt that it has evolved into a solid punch with AESA radar etc. But we should not forget that it was also the fault of our ADA/HAL/DRDO which claimed to built a fighter they simply can not. UK offered them to have a joint development back in 80's they refused. Dassault offered to shift production line of Mirages, they refused and assured respective govts that they can built a brand new fighter. They just took the money to keep themselves running and not loosing jobs. That is why this gov decided to involve pvt players and bear the R&D cost as per DPP2016. Tejas is a good thing but they messed it up.

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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

Posted from another forum:
_
817 Miles from Bangalore to Jamnagar and
743 miles from Jamnagar to Muscat.
520 miles from Muscat to Sakhir Airbase_

All without IFR (looks like it was done with 2 drop tanks)

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## mikhail ivanovich

Abingdonboy said:


> Posted from another forum:
> _
> 817 Miles from Bangalore to Jamnagar and
> 743 miles from Jamnagar to Muscat.
> 520 miles from Muscat to Sakhir Airbase_
> 
> All without IFR (looks like it was done with 2 drop tanks)


yes, indeed it is. Range of Tejas is 500+ nautical miles without drop tanks. But when will it get FOC ?? Million dollar question in itself like the Rafale deal negotiation on and on and on. WTF everything has a limit. Then we get to listen a story that the main negotiating officer died otherwise the deal would have been signed by 2013.


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## Abingdonboy

.


mikhail ivanovich said:


> Then we get to listen a story that the main negotiating officer died otherwise the deal would have been signed by 2013.



Irrelevent, that was during te MMRCA taks, the new GoI scrapped that process entirely.



mikhail ivanovich said:


> But when will it get FOC


2016


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## mikhail ivanovich

Abingdonboy said:


> .
> 
> 
> Irrelevent, that was during te MMRCA taks, the new GoI scrapped that process entirely.
> 
> 
> 2016


Yes i know this time it is 2016. Maybe this time IAF can be satisfied by these choudharies in HAL/ADA. And once it get FOC then it takes atleast 3 years to have a fully operational squardon to build manuals train pilots setup ground infra, train technicians etc. Yes i know the deal for 126 is now canceled and a new deal with G2G route is negotiated which as per latest news costs indian exchequer 60k crore rupees with weapons training etc and with offset for 36+18 fighters. Still very very very costly.


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## Abingdonboy

mikhail ivanovich said:


> And once it get FOC then it takes atleast 3 years to have a fully operational squardon to build manuals train pilots setup ground infra, train technicians etc.


Most of the aforementioned infrastrucutre already exists, it won't take 3 years to get a fully operational SQN- 2 years at most. 


mikhail ivanovich said:


> Yes i know the deal for 126 is now canceled and a new deal with G2G route is negotiated which as per latest news costs indian exchequer 60k crore rupees with weapons training etc and with offset for 36+18 fighters. Still very very very costly.



The cost of chronic underinvestment but those Rafales are worth the price. India isn't some poor country- it can afford it.

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## mikhail ivanovich

Abingdonboy said:


> Most of the aforementioned infrastrucutre already exists, it won't take 3 years to get a fully operational SQN- 2 years at most.
> 
> 
> The cost of chronic underinvestment but those Rafales are worth the price. India isn't some poor country- it can afford it.


OKAY 2 YEAR after FOC happy. We can afford Rafale that is why we are buying them but certainly we are not super rich to have a 200+ million 4th gen 30year old design fighter. Let the deal be signed, then we can estimate actual terms. Even Media don't know anything as of now. Rumors after rumors.


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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> Posted from another forum:
> _
> 817 Miles from Bangalore to Jamnagar and
> 743 miles from Jamnagar to Muscat.
> 520 miles from Muscat to Sakhir Airbase_
> 
> All without IFR (looks like it was done with 2 drop tanks)




Refuelled at jamnagar& Muscat

Longest distance bangalore to jam nagar - anyone have info about how many drop tanks were used ?

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> Refuelled at jamnagar& Muscat
> 
> Longest distance bangalore to jam nagar - anyone have info about how many drop tanks were used ?




I think 2 drop tanks are used.. See this picture posted 2 pages ago





HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2] | Page 79

@Abingdonboy No IFR but once refuelled surely at Jamnagar (after reaching from Bangalore) and at foreign shores in Muscat (after flying 1190 km approx from Jamnagar) before proceeding to Sakhir..

All in all 2080 Miles or around 3340 Kms with 2 refuelling stops.

Since its 2 drop tanks (1200 L ones based on the pic below) its a considerable show of its capability.

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## samlove

History created - for first time LCA-Tejas flies into foreign airspace to participate in Bahrain AirShow.

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## Skull and Bones

Did they sent the naval versions too?

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## samlove

Skull and Bones said:


> Did they sent the naval versions too?


no

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## PARIKRAMA

Skull and Bones said:


> Did they sent the naval versions too?


No sir, no naval version no LIFT...
but Brochure and display would surely carry those products for marketing purpose and sharing progress of LCA as a family of fighters of all needs..

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## sudhir007

Abingdonboy said:


> Well this will be a moot point when operationalised bro as naturally every LCA (IAF or IN version) will have to have BVR capability when entering service.
> 
> + the two (IAF) LCAs when they return to Jamnaghar will be conducting Derby and Python firing tests.


when we have 10-12 PV+LSP then why we are waiting for these 2.
Dnt understand the philosophy of HAL or ADA

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## sathya

sudhir007 said:


> when we have 10-12 PV+LSP then why we are waiting for these 2.
> Dnt understand the philosophy of HAL or ADA



Not sure that many nose cones arrived from cobham .

Latest batch with most widened flight envelop probably having the new nose cone.

Mk1A will be based on naval platform I think we are holding back triumph card.

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## PARIKRAMA

_Cross posting from another forum.. Credit to original poster Abhi9 and Abhishek_

Tejas at Bahrain air base.
















Q: Why we reached one week before show, Are we going to fly beforehead.
A: Practice. We, at Bangalore at height which is not same as Bahrain. The diff in altitudes do impact the low level flyings. Makes lots of sense to practice to the inch perfect before the real show begins.

@Abingdonboy

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## PARIKRAMA

Some interesting snippets from Tejas FB page all in Jan 2016.. They do answer questions !!!

Address: Tejas - LCA

Q: Whats MK1A
*A: Tejas - LCA MK1A will primarily address the maintenance issues plus the gun integration, AESA radar integration, BVR integration (whenever IAF gives a clear indication on the kind of BVR) etc..*

Q: what are the potential BVR missiles under consideration? Derby + Astra?
*A: Tejas - LCA ASTRA for sure. LCA Derby will be for the naval version.*

Q: how the new quartz radome frm cobham test is going on. Any timeline for SP-2 in coming days.
*A: Tejas - LCA SP 2 will come up soon. Cobham radome ground integration checks are over. The actual flight testing will commence soon.*

Q: question related to CG. Is Mk1 still flying around with a 300kg ballast. Or is this a modern myth.
*A: Tejas - LCA Flies with ballast but the no is not this big in number.*

Q: And this is expected to come down after the IFR probe is bolted on? Is it likely that this ballast is completely done away with restructuring and reorganizing the LRUs/MLG on the Mk1A. Reports claim so. I have learnt not to believe reports. Of course. I just meant ballast commiserate to the weight of just the probe to be added will come off
*A: Tejas - LCA You are absolutely right, Sir. The IFR probe will reduce the ballast weight. As currently, only the prototypes are flying, the ballast is a variable. Once, the final version, rather the frozen SOP starts flying, things will streamline. Sir, the last of the LSPs are getting modified for the IFR probe.*

Q: Your gun integration on Mk1A has fluttered some feathers. Won't Mk1 have a gun?
*A: Tejas - LCA The gun integration was initially part of mark1. However, will be done post FOC thereby appropriately for mark 1A.
All other programs, gun is the first store to be integrated onto a fighter simply because the uncertain modifications it demands post testing. The other program houses will never reveal the experiences which they have earned in a harder way. Same is applied to us too. 
However, the initial integration activity shows promise. It is only a matter of when will the prototype be offered to carry out the modifications.*

Q: what is the reason for the slow integration of the sp series aircraft been waiting for the sp 2 and 3...also are we moving closer wrt to naval lca LG weight issue
*A:Tejas - LCA You are right. The undercarriage issue has been creating sort of delay in everything. The sp1 not flying is one of them. However, the issue has been left behind and things will be better in the days to come.*

Q: Is it true that there are issues with the landing gear..there were some news reports about this..(dint believe the reports..)
*A :Tejas - LCA Please understand that any design bound to have problems and remains to be seen how do we solve it. All the aircraft programs all over the world have undergone this process. Yes, there were problems and got sorted out too. Please be assured that the correct picture can be seen only when it is seen and understood from close quartet. Reports are always exaggerated or according to the convince to the reporting agency.*

Q: There are press reports that LSP-4/7 that're off to Bahrain Air show, would perform the BVR firing (Derby) tests for FOC after they have returned from it (i.e. post 23-Jan). Question is, does this mean that LSP-4/7 are already retrofitted with Cobham built quartz radomes - or are they going to go ahead with BVR testing with the old ASLs Kevlar based radome?
*A: Tejas - LCA Lsp4 and lsp7 are heading for bahrain and on the return leg, lsp7 will fire bvr. Cobham radome ground testing is on. Flight test will commence soon. BVR firing is without this.*

Q: why are we experiencing delay in SP manufacturing.By now we should have 4 SP flying.Is there change in plan as to Whether these SP will IOC or FOC standard or are these modified to SOP-18 fighter.Please clarify ,i hope its the latter.
*A: Tejas - LCA The directive as of now is that the first 20 ac will be with present configuration. The rest no is with SOP-18. This is,a wise decision looking at the time line HAL is seeking. The mark 1A needs all heavy gun's interference and an honest dedicated effort from all to realize. 
And coming to delay in SP is because there are still grey areas in getting the finalized production version of all the components. The no runs to couple of thousands. All said done, delay is primarily because of lack of a clear cut directive. If you look at mirage 2000 induction, the integration of sensors was a continuous process whereas it is expected from tejas to have everything in the beginning itself, which is a tough ask.*

Q: Will 4 SPs be produced by end of this financial year as per the target?
*A: Tejas - LCA That's the target. 3 is a possible no.*

Q: sir, regarding sop18 or mk1a is it really true we are looking to reduce weight of aircraft by 800kgs??
*A: Tejas - LCA I doubt this figure, sir.*

Q: What are issues with LCA for integration of gun ? As it is very important for any fighter jet.
*A: Tejas - LCA Priorities. As of now, proving the capabilities to fire a BVR has taken the attention. Air Force is not much keen on GSH-23.*

Q: In earlier post you mentioned integration of Gsh 23 is deferred. I thought ground runs of gun firing from Tejas has been already done? So what has been deferred, is it in flight test firing of gun or actual gsh 23 has been removed all together from LCA, for now? 
>Are private companies being roped in for commercial production of numerous components? 
>Last what missile the Tejas is carrying on outboard pylons? Doesnt seem r73 or even python, are they smoke generator pods?
*A: Tejas - LCA Answer to q1 - you are right. The ground integration checks called butt firing tests have been done. The required structural mod also have been done. The prototype has been identified. It is the directive of IAF towards FOC requirement has been under discussion.
Answer to q2 will be political from our side, hence would like to avoid. Hope, you excuse us..
Answer to Q3 - yes, they are smoke winders normally uninstalled to produce smoke during demonstrations and specific flight testing task.*


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Water Car Engineer @Skull and Bones @nair @anant_s @SR-91 @surya kiran @sathya @Roybot @Levina @ranjeet @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @[Bregs] @knight11 @jaiind @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @sarjenprabhu @others

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## [Bregs]

2016 is going to be moment of reckoning for tejas lets hope for the best

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## W@rwolf

*Important points to be noted from the above interview:*

*1.* He said "*Astra for Mk-1A and Derby for N-LCA*". Does that mean the Mk-1 is getting only the Python-5 for now? I thought Derby integration was going on?

*2.* New radome integration and ground tests over. Flight test will begin soon.
*3.* IFR probe integration ongoing.
*4.* IAF isn't giving priority to gun operationalization for now. Butt firing tests completed, Preliminary structural modifications done. Work to be completed post FOC.
*5.* Undercarriage issue partly responsible for the SP airframes rollout delay. Temporarily fixed.
*6.* LSP-7 will undertake the BVR trials at Jamnagar after returning from BIAS.
*7.* First 20 airframes to be in present configuration (presuming it to be FOC)
*8.* Total number of airframes produced within this financial year - Target = 4, Realistically = 3.

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## SUDIP

PARIKRAMA said:


> Q: how the new quartz radome frm cobham test is going on. Any timeline for SP-2 in coming days.
> *A: Tejas - LCA SP 2 will come up soon. Cobham radome ground integration checks are over. The actual flight testing will commence soon.*



This question was actually asked by me .

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## PARIKRAMA

SUDIP said:


> This question was actually asked by me .


Awesome Sir... Heartfelt thanks to people like you who asked them straight questions... If media could have asked questions properly we would have known much better about TEjas progress, issues and challenges...

But no one asked about FOC timeline.. Your interactions with them indicate which month in 2016? March or may be June/July?

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## Water Car Engineer

>Are private companies being roped in for commercial production of numerous components? 



> Answer to q2 will be political from our side, hence would like to avoid. Hope, you excuse us..




Lol, what?

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## sathya

Q: There are press reports that LSP-4/7 that're off to Bahrain Air show, would perform the BVR firing (Derby) tests for FOC after they have returned from it (i.e. post 23-Jan). Question is, does this mean that LSP-4/7 are already retrofitted with Cobham built quartz radomes - or are they going to go ahead with BVR testing with the old ASLs Kevlar based radome?
*A: Tejas - LCA Lsp4 and lsp7 are heading for bahrain and on the return leg, lsp7 will fire bvr. Cobham radome ground testing is on. Flight test will commence soon. BVR firing is without this.*



I ve discussed this point with @sudhir007
I told I believed cobham was integrated with Lsp 4&7 , that's why we have to wait for the same to return for BVR testing.

Seems I am wrong.


Lots of questions are discussed by the members here like 300kg ballast, 800kg weight reduction
Good to see answers 

-------------

Sad to see improvements not to the level we expected.
Under carriage problems to be fixed with Dassault assistance ?

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/687697824088129536

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## sudhir007

sathya said:


> Q: There are press reports that LSP-4/7 that're off to Bahrain Air show, would perform the BVR firing (Derby) tests for FOC after they have returned from it (i.e. post 23-Jan). Question is, does this mean that LSP-4/7 are already retrofitted with Cobham built quartz radomes - or are they going to go ahead with BVR testing with the old ASLs Kevlar based radome?
> *A: Tejas - LCA Lsp4 and lsp7 are heading for bahrain and on the return leg, lsp7 will fire bvr. Cobham radome ground testing is on. Flight test will commence soon. BVR firing is without this.*
> 
> 
> 
> I ve discussed this point with @sudhir007
> I told I believed cobham was integrated with Lsp 4&7 , that's why we have to wait for the same to return for BVR testing.
> 
> Seems I am wrong.
> 
> 
> Lots of questions are discussed by the members here like 300kg ballast, 800kg weight reduction
> Good to see answers
> 
> -------------
> 
> Sad to see improvements not to the level we expected.
> Under carriage problems to be fixed with Dassault assistance ?


Thank 
Buy the million doller question is if they firing BVR w/o cobham then why wait for so long

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> Q: There are press reports that LSP-4/7 that're off to Bahrain Air show, would perform the BVR firing (Derby) tests for FOC after they have returned from it (i.e. post 23-Jan). Question is, does this mean that LSP-4/7 are already retrofitted with Cobham built quartz radomes - or are they going to go ahead with BVR testing with the old ASLs Kevlar based radome?
> *A: Tejas - LCA Lsp4 and lsp7 are heading for bahrain and on the return leg, lsp7 will fire bvr. Cobham radome ground testing is on. Flight test will commence soon. BVR firing is without this.*
> 
> 
> 
> I ve discussed this point with @sudhir007
> I told I believed cobham was integrated with Lsp 4&7 , that's why we have to wait for the same to return for BVR testing.
> 
> Seems I am wrong.
> 
> 
> Lots of questions are discussed by the members here like 300kg ballast, 800kg weight reduction
> Good to see answers
> 
> -------------
> 
> Sad to see improvements not to the level we expected.
> Under carriage problems to be fixed with Dassault assistance ?



Well with expectation of 3 birds up March 16, out of which 1 already handed over long back and second in process of handing over, the only realistic expectations is a third bird by March end with a bit touch n go scenario.

I think UC will get serious help from Dassault..

One thing to note is this


PARIKRAMA said:


> And coming to delay in SP is because there are still grey areas in getting the finalized production version of all the components. The no runs to couple of thousands. All said done, delay is primarily because of *lack of a clear cut directive*. If you look at mirage 2000 induction, the integration of sensors was a continuous process whereas it is expected from tejas to have everything in the beginning itself, which is a tough ask.



What exactly is meant by clear cut directive.. Did IAF not asked Mark 1 tech specs long back.. Now over time when things got delayed the mark1 had to be upgraded to mark1A.

Yes benchmarking is set high for tejas.but it seems they are more trying to blame others..

About radome integration I think we may have got just one or two and ground integrations are going on. So bvr test may be done with lsp7 without the Cobham integration due to trying to reach a goal before March end 2016.
iMHO I think we got just one Cobham radar after pressurising Cobham tooth and nail. The next batch I think should come in FY17 in small batches in line with aircraft FOC compliant ones...

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> Well with expectation of 3 birds up March 16, out of which 1 already handed over long back and second in process of handing over, the only realistic expectations is a third bird by March end with a bit touch n go scenario.
> 
> I think UC will get serious help from Dassault..
> 
> One thing to note is this
> 
> 
> What exactly is meant by clear cut directive.. Did IAF not asked Mark 1 tech specs long back.. Now over time when things got delayed the mark1 had to be upgraded to mark1A.
> 
> Yes benchmarking is set high for tejas.but it seems they are more trying to blame others..
> 
> About radome integration I think we may have got just one or two and ground integrations are going on. So bvr test may be done with lsp7 without the Cobham integration due to trying to reach a goal before March end 2016.
> iMHO I think we got just one Cobham radar after pressurising Cobham tooth and nail. The next batch I think should come in FY17 in small batches in line with aircraft FOC compliant ones...



We were waiting for cobham dome for BVR testing
And blamed cobham for delay, seems even if cobham radome delivered early, we wouldn't have tested BVR anyway.

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## Ankit Kumar

If anyone knows what happened to the two Technology Demonstrators of Tejas ? Are they still flying ?


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## halupridol

sudhir007 said:


> Thank
> Buy the million doller question is if they firing BVR w/o cobham then why wait for so long


chai biskut break chal raha tha
@Abingdonboy seems like they got waiver on gun integration for mk1(i.e. furthr relaxation of foc standrds),,,they were hopeful of more relaxations,,no way to know how many waivers they got as they may not be as obvious as an absent gun for enthusiasts and hence require a public explanation.


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## SRP

Tejas begins practice sorties at Sakhir Airbase in Bahrain - Oneindia

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## mkb95

Tejas begins practice sorties at Sakhir Airbase in Bahrain

Bengaluru, Dec 16: India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas began undertaking practice sorties at Sakhir Airbase in Bahrain on Saturday. Two aircraft from Tejas flight-line - LSP-4 and LSP-7 - had reached the Sakhir Airbase on January 14, scripting a new chapter for India's fighter jet development programme.




The Bahrain International Air Show (BIAS-2016) will begin from January 21-23 at the Sakhir Airbase. "We were the first to land here and even the Sarang team from the Indian Air Force too had arrived early. We are ensuring that everything is in place as the show nears. The telemetry links have gone live," says an official, who is part of the Indian team. On Saturday, LSP-4 and LSP-7 had their first practice sorties at Bahrain. "These are flights to check the profiles for the show. Very similar to what we undergo during Aero India in Bengaluru," says the official. An advanced team of ground support crew from Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd are already in Bahrain. As reported by OneIndia, Tejas will be parked next to two Pakistani JF-17 Thunders at the show.

Read more at: Tejas begins practice sorties at Sakhir Airbase in Bahrain - Oneindia

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## Dandpatta

Would be a great picture of Indian and Pakistani pilots posing WITH each other. Political animosity aside, I am sure, aviators are a breed that respect each other, no matter you don an enemy's uniform ..or not.


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## mkb95

photos from bahrain

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## AMCA

I could see Wingtip vortices in LCA, a picture from Blog Tarmak(Unfortunate that I cannot place it here), an indication of its high angle of attack and the capability to pull high G's. The below picture I doubt may be a good example, though many will think its just an effect of smokewinder. IT IS NOT!! Thats clear High G.

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## ultron

Is that SP-1?


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## AMCA

ultron said:


> Is that SP-1?



No it isn't. That's either LSP 7 or 4. Most probably 7.

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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer

Tejas team in Bahrain

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## mkb95



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## SRP

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Team LCA Tejas At Bahrain's Sakhir Base

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## Abingdonboy

Awesome 


mkb95 said:


>


@Vauban not quite Skyfighters but still pretty cool

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## AnnoyingOrange

SRP said:


> LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Team LCA Tejas At Bahrain's Sakhir Base


One thing for sure... Tejas shut lines are getting better and better with every new machine rolling out of assembly line.

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## SRP

Tejas parked near to Typhoon

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## SRP



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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/689462233261158401


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## Dandpatta

AnnoyingOrange said:


> One thing for sure... Tejas shut lines are getting better and better with every new machine rolling out of assembly line.


Sorry buddy, what is a shut line?


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## AnnoyingOrange

Dandpatta said:


> Sorry buddy, what is a shut line?


panel gap... In car speak. Cleaner and tighter shut lines means production quality is getting better.

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## W@rwolf

Tejas doing a high speed low-pass and pull-up during the practice session at BIAS.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1072292769500839





Tejas pulling a High G Vertical





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1072236632839786

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## nik22

^^ Awesome!


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## AMCA

Awsome!! Awsome!! Awsome!! I am very amazed with the Low pass with a vertical climb!!

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## mirage

W@rwolf said:


> Tejas doing a high speed low-pass and pull-up during the practice session at BIAS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1072292769500839
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas pulling a High G Vertical
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1072236632839786


goose bumps


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## W@rwolf

The full video showing a part of Tejas's airshow routine where it comes in at low altitude, high speed to perform an Immelmann turn, followed by a Split-S and finally what looks like a high-G vertical pull up.

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## sasum

W@rwolf said:


> The full video showing a part of Tejas's airshow routine where it comes in at low altitude, high speed to perform an Immelmann turn, followed by a Split-S and finally what looks like a high-G vertical pull up.


I have seen clips of F-16 , a 70s technology plane, doing more spectacular maneuvering.

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## AnnoyingOrange

Full-scale production of Tejas by next year: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

Key Points:

Full-scale production of Tejas by next year 
The training of IAF pilots on LCA has already commenced. 
It is estimated that 20 aircraft will be built by 2017- 2018, to make the first squadron of the aircraft.

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## ultron

Better hope Trump won't cut engine supply to Tejas. Still waiting on SP-2.


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## Stag112

sasum said:


> I have seen clips of F-16 , a 70s technology plane, doing more spectacular maneuvering.



You mean a plane being produced today to latest techological standards in numbers exceeding 4500 by the worlds foremost aerospace power can actually do better stunts than our first effort's dubut?

No shyte sherlock!

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## Great Sachin




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## Abingdonboy

ultron said:


> Better hope Trump won't cut engine supply to Tejas. Still waiting on SP-2.


Trump is probably the most pro-indian of any of the leading candidates (Cruz, Clinton, Sanders and him).

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## SUDIP

Abingdonboy said:


> Trump is probably the most pro-indian of any of the leading candidates (Cruz, Clinton, Sanders and him).



As per my knowledge on politics, yes he is. He has a lot of investments in india (Mumbai and ncr) also--- in reality sector with lodha grp

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## Abingdonboy

SUDIP said:


> As per my knowledge on politics, yes he is. He has a lot of investments in india (Mumbai and ncr) also--- in reality sector with lodha grp


Republicans are always better for India than democrats and with the current leadership in India a Republican would be preferable in the Whitehouse even more so.







I don't trust Clinton as far as India goes and especially with Modi as the PM, remember the "get Modi" policy of hers?

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## W@rwolf

The video of the first day is out. Spectacular performance by Tejas. Opening up the flight envelope really unleashed the little bird.

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## Ind4Ever

I think there are two display... Did you guys get any info on second one? 


W@rwolf said:


> The video of the first day is out. Spectacular performance by Tejas. Opening up the flight envelope really unleashed the little bird.


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## cerberus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690600858631872512


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## rockstarIN

Tejas updates:

1. Tejas Mk-1A might get Astra BVR while and N-LCA will get the Derby. Integration of both Python-5 and Derby are ongoing on Mk-1 but its unclear which one will be tested in the upcoming trial.

2. Cobham radome integration and ground tests over. Flight test will begin soon.

3. IFR probe integration and ground testing ongoing.

4. Mk-1 will not have an operational gun for FOC. IAF isn't giving priority to gun operationalization for now. "Butt firing" tests have been completed and preliminary structural modifications done. Work to be completed post FOC.

5. Undercarriage issue partly responsible for the SP airframes rollout delay. The issue has been temporarily fixed.

6. LSP-7 will undertake the BVR trials at Jamnagar after returning from BIAS.

7. First 20 Mk-1 airframes will be in FOC configuration, while the next 100 will be in Mk-1A configuration

8. Total number of airframes targeted to be produced within this year is 6.

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## kalibr



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## kalibr

Watch tejas now
تلفزيون البحرين | وكالة أنباء البحرين


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## kaykay

kalibr said:


> Watch tejas now
> تلفزيون البحرين | وكالة أنباء البحرين


Its performing again?


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## kalibr

kaykay said:


> Its performing again?


I missed it 

Bit old but my favorite video


----------



## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## PARIKRAMA

Credit to original posters in various forum











this pic is awesome











night night sleep sleep.. cover your eyes !!!
















Credit to Asit P from BR for pics
He also observed the following in BIAS 2016
Quote
_Some observations that I made are:
1). It is small and very swift, as a result of which, it was difficult to capture its shots in camera in comparison to the other aircrafts
2). The diameter of 360 degree loop made by Tejas was shorter than that of F 16 & Mirage 2000 (naked eye observation)
3). *The part of runway it took to take off was also shorter than the above mentioned birds *(again naked eye observation)
4). Unlike the Sarang display team, there was very little awareness about this bird in the general public (Indians included). Unfortunately, the live commentary went off today owing to some technical snag just before Tejas took off to the skies,for the want of which, many people were left wondering as to which aircraft it is. I heard many people say that its a Saudi plane. One champion went on to say that it was JF 17




5). Purely from the perspective of engaging the audience, bulk of which comprises of kids and those who have very little awareness about defense products, Tejas must use colored smoke instead of White._

Unquote

The 3rd point seems to showcase its ability from short run up and advantage of TWR and wing loading (as per another boarder in the same forum)

Good to see solid performance and LCA finally raising the buzz..

Proud moment for all of us..

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## PARIKRAMA

Something interesting
Credit to the original poster again

_Left side- LCA 2011, Rt side LCA 2016 In Bahrain LCA goes beyond top of loop in less than 9 sec which is the 2011 time_
_



_


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## kaykay

Today's video guys. Anyone? @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Today's video guys. Anyone? @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy


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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


>



Question for LCA experts. Are the yellow dollies seen with all parked LCAs, engine starters?

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## Abingdonboy

Bossman said:


> Question for LCA experts. Are the yellow dollies seen with all parked LCAs, engine starters?


THey are self propelled Ground Power Units (GPUs)








Modern jet engines have onboard starters and should be able to start with no external aids.

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## Dazzler

maximum speed? supersonic at all altitudes...


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## cerberus

Dazzler said:


> maximum speed? supersonic at all altitudes...


So what you expected in 10 minutes of air show if look in that way F-22 performance was even pathetic

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## Aero

Dazzler said:


> maximum speed? supersonic at all altitudes...


It is not necessary to troll if you don't have anything good to say.

Why you can't have any serious discussion?

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## cerberus

I know there expert's which suggested principal including here on PDF 
The main reason you don't see tailless delta wings on fighter jets is that this wing shape tends to bleed off lots of energy in a turn, and good turn performance is very important for fighter jets.

What I'm stating is
LCA is a compound delta wing aircraft
Compound Delta is used to create high-lift vortex and reduce drag. Although use of canards and control surfaces like Dassault Rafale and EF Typhoon can provide other variations too.

At the beginning Delta wing is experimented on high speed supersonic aircraft to achieve more stability during supersonic flight. But this causes instability in subsonic speed i.e below MacH.Generally Pure Delta configuration is preferred for designing Aircraft with supersonic Interceptor role. But as generation advanced Interceptors are no more required and what we call as Multi-role or Swing-role fighter comes into view. So pure Delta configuration idea is dropped out instead Compound delta(LCA) and Canard-delta(Rafale or Eurofighter)is used now-a-days.



The matter of Fact is tail-less delta doesn't provide enough lift and sufficient stability at lower mach or subsonic speed which is very important in dogfight. But it can be compensated by providing a compound delta configuration. The best example is HAL Tejas, which is a tail-less delta but with Compound delta configuration

Here you can do analysis on link given below 

Fluid Mechanics Applications/A02: Delta Wing Aircraft Aerodynamics - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


> THey are self propelled Ground Power Units (GPUs)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern jet engines have onboard starters and should be able to start with no external aids.



So why GPUs are always there with LCAs? Does it mean it cannot start autonomously. If yes, it raises a big question about LCA's deployment. Such GPU are never seen with other modern jets like F16, J10 or JF17


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## sathya

Bossman said:


> So why GPUs are always there with LCAs? Does it mean it cannot start autonomously. If yes, it raises a big question about LCA's deployment. Such GPU are never seen with other modern jets like F16, J10 or JF17



Not sure why it was there.. Back up ? 

I am sure it even passed cold test in LEH.


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## Abingdonboy

Bossman said:


> So why GPUs are always there with LCAs? Does it mean it cannot start autonomously. If yes, it raises a big question about LCA's deployment. Such GPU are never seen with other modern jets like F16, J10 or JF17


Lol, chill brother. It is nothing like that.

Between the F404 (which has its own Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) ) and the APU/EPU, the LCA can easily operate autonomously- and has to be able to do as per all established military requirements. The usage of the GPU by HAL for the LCA may just be because they want to save jet fuel (that the APU uses) or some other logistical reason. Don't read too much into it.

Perhaps these just stick out to you because they are yellow (since they are HAL's), the military's (in green) may just stick out less and thus you think you see them more with the LCA:

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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol, chill brother. It is nothing like that.
> 
> Between the F404 (which has its own Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) ) and the APU/EPU, the LCA can easily operate autonomously- and has to be able to do as per all established military requirements. The usage of the GPU by HAL for the LCA may just be because they want to save jet fuel (that the APU uses) or some other logistical reason. Don't read too much into it.
> 
> Perhaps these just stick out to you because they are yellow (since they are HAL's), the military's (in green) may just stick out less and thus you think you see them more with the LCA:



I know all jets have them but It is very unusual to see such engine starters for short deployments and for that matter one for each aircraft. This is something unique to LCA and It shows that it has a very big logistics tail and and its maintenance hog. For its first outgoing, whats happening on the ground is telling more about the LCA then what we see in the sky. I have gone through thousands of pictures of Jf17 and saw only one with a GPU but all parked LCA have GPUs. For other modern aircraft they seems to be an exception but a must for LCA.


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## Abingdonboy

Bossman said:


> but It is very unusual to see such engine starters


It's not an engine starter!



Bossman said:


> short deployments


Lenght of deployment is irrelevent 



Bossman said:


> and for that matter one for each aircraft


In the pictures I have shown it is always 1 per a/c- this is the SOP



Bossman said:


> This is something unique to LCA


Nope.


Bossman said:


> shows that it has a very big logistics tail and and its maintenance hog


Nope.



Bossman said:


> For its first outgoing, whats happening on the ground is telling more about the LCA then what we see in the sky.


Cool story. More like seeing what you want to see.



Bossman said:


> I have gone through thousands of pictures of Jf17 and saw only one with a GPU but all parked LCA have GPUs. For other modern aircraft they seems to be an exception but a must for LCA.


Right. Somehow India's fighter jet is unique in aviation history and goes against all established trends? An American (and proven engine) with an inbuilt JFS and the Indian APU are somehow now uniquely insufficent? Please. 


These are all prototypes and hence being papmered by their mechanics- they will have scores of technicans per plane (much more than in operational units) and this is so that every niggle is addressed and faults kept to a minimum. There is a reason the LCA's test program is near issue free.


That said, the LCA has also proven itself in all climates to operate free from issue. The ADA designed an entirely new JFS in colloboration with GE for the F404 purely for starting unaided in extreme cold tempratures such as in Leh. 








Please stop clutching at straws and don't you worry about the LCA's operations

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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


> It's not an engine starter!
> 
> 
> Lenght of deployment is irrelevent
> 
> 
> In the pictures I have shown it is always 1 per a/c- this is the SOP
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> 
> Cool story. More like seeing what you want to see.
> 
> 
> Right. Somehow India's fighter jet is unique in aviation history and goes against all established trends? An American (and proven engine) with an inbuilt JFS and the Indian APU are somehow now uniquely insufficent? Please.
> 
> 
> These are all prototypes and hence being papmered by their mechanics- they will have scores of technicans per plane (much more than in operational units) and this is so that every niggle is addressed and faults kept to a minimum. There is a reason the LCA's test program is near issue free.
> 
> 
> That said, the LCA has also proven itself in all climates to operate free from issue. The ADA designed an entirely new JFS in colloboration with GE for the F404 purely for starting unaided in extreme cold tempratures such as in Leh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please stop clutching at straws and don't you worry about the LCA's operations



I am not an aviation expert, but I all the pictures I see of parked LCA have these big GPUs or whatever you call them, but I rarely see them with other modern jets including JF17 so there is something really different which is unique to the Tejas and despite your long response above it points to only one conclusion that LCA is either a maintenance hog or it is far away from being operational. Just reinforces the general view including that of the IAF about the Tejas.


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## kaykay

Bossman said:


> I know all jets have them but It is very unusual to see such engine starters for short deployments and for that matter one for each aircraft. This is something unique to LCA and It shows that it has a very big logistics tail and and its maintenance hog. For its first outgoing, whats happening on the ground is telling more about the LCA then what we see in the sky. I have gone through thousands of pictures of Jf17 and saw only one with a GPU but all parked LCA have GPUs. For other modern aircraft they seems to be an exception but a must for LCA.


Tejas is there in Bahrain since last 7-8 days and performed number of sorties( daily) so of course they will need some them.



Bossman said:


> I know all jets have them but It is very unusual to see such engine starters for short deployments and for that matter one for each aircraft. This is something unique to LCA and It shows that it has a very big logistics tail and and its maintenance hog. For its first outgoing, whats happening on the ground is telling more about the LCA then what we see in the sky. I have gone through thousands of pictures of Jf17 and saw only one with a GPU but all parked LCA have GPUs. For other modern aircraft they seems to be an exception but a must for LCA.


Tejas is there in Bahrain since last 7-8 days and performed number of sorties( daily) so of course they will need some them.


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## Bossman

kaykay said:


> Tejas is there in Bahrain since last 7-8 days and performed number of sorties( daily) so of course they will need some them.


so how come I didn't see them with JF17 in Paris or Zhuhai and you are contradicting Abingdonboy that length of the deployment is irrelevant. I think this is LCAs achilles heal.


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## kaykay

Bossman said:


> so how come I didn't see them with JF17 in Paris or Zhuhai and you are contradicting Abingdonboy that length of the deployment is irrelevant. I think this is LCAs achilles heal.


Well this was first foreign deployment of Tejas. May be they wanted no stone unturned? By the way everybody is praising Tejas( national, international aviation experts).


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## Bossman

kaykay said:


> Well this was first foreign deployment of Tejas. May be they wanted no stone unturned? By the way everybody is praising Tejas( national, international aviation experts).


The only praise I have heard is from fanboys on this forum. Can you post some links to credible neutral aviation experts and their opinion of Tejas's first outing.


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## Abingdonboy

Bossman said:


> I am not an aviation expert, but I all the pictures I see of parked LCA have these big GPUs or whatever you call them, but I rarely see them with other modern jets including JF17 so there is something really different which is unique to the Tejas and despite your long response above it points to only one conclusion that LCA is either a maintenance hog or it is far away from be operational. Just reinforces the general view including that of the IAF about the Tejas.


You're seeing what you want to see. Just because you haven't seen the GPUs in X amount of pics doesn't mean that is representative of the practices followed for operating fighter aircraft as a whole. You're not comparig like for like. The LCA pics you would have seen would all have been whilst it is under testing with its OEM and not with its users. The inherent difference in requirements and treatment is more than apparent if you apply some critical thinking.

Your "maintence hog" assertion makes ZERO sense, because the entire pupose of a GPU is to suppliment (or substitute) the onboard APU/EPU of the fighter jet. It is NOT an engine starter as you keep stating.The APU is not cutting edge tech- this can be bought off the shelf easily or simply devloped in house as most OEMs do (and HAL has done)- if the APU was at fault it would have been replaced by now. If you are stating the JFS is at fault then it makes even less sense as the JFS has been developed with one of the world's largest aviation engine manufactuerers (GE) to be used in some of the most inhostpitable enviroments. As such, where is the scope for the failure on the APU or JFS? They are both relatively simple components that would have been swapped out by now if not working.

Even IF the GPU was required every single time the LCA was operating, this would hardly be an issue, all a GPU is is an external power source, used to provide power to onboard systems whilst the engine/propulsion unit is not running.

To make it easy, I'll give some final reasons to refute your cr@p and then I am going to bed.

Why the GPU is present with the LCA more often than with other a/c you have seen (of that is even true which doubt)
-GPU is being utilised to save HAL jet fuel- APU uses jet fuel to generate power, GPU uses diesil.
-Not all airports allow for the use of APUs for certification reasons and thus off board GPUs are required
- Given that the LCA is still under testing, more time will be required in the cockpit with the engine/propulsion unit turned off for both engineers and pilots to conduct pre-flight and post-flight checks, diagnostics and tests (possibly to validate simulator models) thus requireing the GPU to not strain the APU for extended periods of time
- I forgot to mention, that these GPUs cabinets are also used for offboard air conditioning given the climate in India and Sakir, perhaps they are being used to provide some comfort to the pilots without depleting the onboard APU.


As you have said, you are not an aviation expert so stop making a fool of yourself. I've given you plenty of rebutals now, if you persist with this line of attack it is clear you are not interested in making valid observations but simply clutching at straws and trying to demean the LCA on whatever grounds you can think of.


@PARIKRAMA @Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay

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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


> You're seeing what you want to see. Just because you haven't seen the GPUs in X amount of pics doesn't mean that is representative of the practices followed for operating fighter aircraft as a whole. You're not comparig like for like. The LCA pics you would have seen would all have been whilst it is under testing with its OEM and not with its users. The inherent difference in requirements and treatment is more than apparent if you apply some critical thinking.
> 
> Your "maintence hog" assertion makes ZERO sense, because the entire pupose of a GPU is to suppliment (or substitute) the onboard APU/EPU of the fighter jet. It is NOT an engine starter as you keep stating.The APU is not cutting edge tech- this can be bought off the shelf easily or simply devloped in house as most OEMs do (and HAL has done)- if the APU was at fault it would have been replaced by now. If you are stating the JFS is at fault then it makes even less sense as the JFS has been developed with one of the world's largest aviation engine manufactuerers (GE) to be used in some of the most inhostpitable enviroments. As such, where is the scope for the failure on the APU or JFS? They are both relatively simple components that would have been swapped out by now if not working.
> 
> Even IF the GPU was required every single time the LCA was operating, this would hardly be an issue, all a GPU is is an external power source, used to provide power to onboard systems whilst the engine/propulsion unit is not running.
> 
> To make it easy, I'll give some final reasons to refute your cr@p and then I am going to bed.
> 
> Why the GPU is present with the LCA more often than with other a/c you have seen (of that is even true which doubt)
> -GPU is being utilised to save HAL jet fuel- APU uses jet fuel to generate power, GPU uses diesil.
> -Not all airports allow for the use of APUs for certification reasons and thus off board GPUs are required
> - Given that the LCA is still under testing, more time will be required in the cockpit with the engine/propulsion unit turned off for both engineers and pilots to conduct pre-flight and post-flight checks, diagnostics and tests (possibly to validate simulator models) thus requireing the GPU to not strain the APU for extended periods of time
> - I forgot to mention, that these GPUs cabinets are also used for offboard air conditioning given the climate in India and Sakir, perhaps they are being used to provide some comfort to the pilots without depleting the onboard APU.
> 
> 
> As you have said, you are not an aviation expert so stop making a fool of yourself. I've given you plenty of rebutals now, if you persist with this line of attack it is clear you are not interested in making valid observations but simply clutching at straws and trying to demean the LCA on whatever grounds you can think of.
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay



Thanks for your detailed response the reason I call it a maintenance hog is that to deploy Tejas at forward airbases a lot more logistical support will be needed. Say for a squadron of 18 jets you'll need 18 GPU units and going by their size that will require minimum of three if not more IL78 or C17 sorties. I know for a fact that a full F16 or JF 17 Squadron can be fully deployed anywhere with just one C130 or even CASA 235. The whole process is just one roll on and roll off one trailer with all the support hardware needed. The tractor is not moved because they are pre-deployed. Maybe that is the reason it took LCA such a long time to get to international shows. Also for diagnostics I have seen JF17 crews using a couple of rugged laptops. Nothing more is required.


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## kaykay

Bossman said:


> The only praise I have heard is from fanboys on this forum. Can you post some links to credible foreign aviation experts and their opinion of Tejas's first outing.


Interestingly only bashing I have heard is from 'fanboys' too from PDF. But then since Alan Warnes pleases them, here you go


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690908645119369216

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690945471720886278

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## Bossman

kaykay said:


> Interestingly only bashing I have heard is from 'fanboys' too from PDF. But then since Alan Warnes pleases them, here you go
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690908645119369216
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690945471720886278


good enough, however except for the agility part, which is basic fundamental, there is no real praise in these tweets. He is said that he met so and so and that the crew were very proud. Good polite things to say nothing more. He also twitted that the Indians were very impressed by the JF 17s progress in a short time. You know that Alan Warnes is on PAF's payroll, he writes books for them and has an insider track with them. I am sure he is sharing his conversations with the Tejas program director/ADA executives with his friends in the PAF and much more so a little praise to get in the good books with HAL/ADA might not be such a bad things. I would not be surprised if PAF paid for his trip.

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## kalibr

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690909373711978496
Is he Pakistani? His most of tweet is regarding pakistan air force

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## Bossman

Also one more question for Tejas experts. Why didn't HAL invest in automatic canopy closing mechanism. Indian aviation has an history with Canopy issues. Marut's canopy used to open up when it fired its main guns. Also HJT 36 Sitara crashed at Aero India because the canopy opened up during the takeoff role. Its amusing to see the Tejas pilot close the canopy with his hand and then push it back a couple of times to check if it is locked. I have never seen that in any second and third generation fighters. I think this is a disaster waiting to happen.



kalibr said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/690909373711978496
> Is he Pakistani? His most of tweet is regarding pakistan air force



No he is British but very close to the PAF.


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## GORKHALI

Bossman said:


> Also one more question for Tejas experts. Why didn't HAL invest in automatic canopy closing mechanism. Indian aviation has an history with Canopy issues. Marut's canopy used to open up when it fired its main guns. One of Indian training jet prototypes crashed at Aero India because the canopy opened up during the takeoff role. Its amusing to see the Tejas pilot close the canopy with his hand and then push it back a couple of times to check if it is locked. I have never seen that in second and third generation fighters. I think this is a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> No he is British but very close to the PAF.


He is on payroll of PAF. I still remember how Airforce Police shoo away from Su 30mki pilots during AI 2007 as he was asking way too technical question regarding self defense and EW of MKis.

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## kaykay

Bossman said:


> good enough, however except for the agility part, which is basic fundamental, there is no real praise in these tweets. He is said that he met so and so and that the crew were very proud. Good polite things to say nothing more. He also twitted that the Indians were very impressed by the JF 17s progress in a short time. You know that Alan Warnes is on PAF's payroll, he writes books for them and has an insider track with them. I am sure he is sharing his conversations with the Tejas program director/ADA executives with his friends in the PAF and much more so a little praise to get in the good books with HAL/ADA might not be such a bad things. I would not be surprised if PAF paid for his trip.


Well because in an air show, Its agility which is shown to people. Don't expect them to show their avionics and other critical stuffs.

PA: Airshows are all about agility.


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## sathya

Plan is to have *SP2 first flight before march 16*. The *next financial year might see 3 or 4 SPs* ready for flying.


Cross posting
Credit to bull
Credit to FB
Credit to the one who asked that question

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## Roybot

Bossman said:


> Thanks for your detailed response the reason I call it a maintenance hog is that to deploy Tejas at forward airbases a lot more logistical support will be needed. Say for a squadron of 18 jets you'll need 18 GPU units and going by their size that will require minimum of three if not more IL78 or C17 sorties. I know for a fact that a full F16 or JF 17 Squadron can be fully deployed anywhere with just one C130 or even CASA 235. The whole process is just one roll on and roll off one trailer with all the support hardware needed. The tractor is not moved because they are pre-deployed. Maybe that is the reason it took LCA such a long time to get to international shows. Also for diagnostics I have seen JF17 crews using a couple of rugged laptops. Nothing more is required.








You were saying?

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## kaykay

Roybot said:


> You were saying?


@Bossman


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## Bossman

Roybot said:


> You were saying?


Stupid that is from CATICs factory at Chengdu not a deployment for operations or airshows and I even have one picture of JF17 with a GPU at a deployment and if you had read my previous posts I never said that JF17 don't use them but it seems like an exception not the rule. You hardly see them during deployment *but it seems that the Tejas cannot go without them anywhere
*
Check here High resolution pictures of JF-17 | Page 24


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## Water Car Engineer



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## sathya

Bossman said:


> Thats is from CATICs factory at Chengdu not a deployment for operations or airshows and I even have one picture of JF17 with a GPU at a deployment and if you had read my previous posts I never said that JF17 don't use them but it seems like an exception not the rule. You hardly see them during deployment *but it seems that the Tejas cannot go without them anywhere
> *
> Check here High resolution pictures of JF-17 | Page 24



It's the difference between kamra and Paf using it.


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## kalibr



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## Bossman

sathya said:


> It's the difference between kamra and Paf using it.


Remember the J in JF17 stands for "Joint". Chengdu has a role in it as much as Kamra. Right now 229, which was assembled in Kamra is at Chengdu for integration of IFR, additional composite panels and other upgrades.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

now i cant wait to see naval LCA performing in the airshows. Brilliant plane and its just the beginning. Phategi bohat phategi.


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## kaykay

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> now i cant wait to see naval LCA performing in the airshows. Brilliant plane and its just the beginning. Phategi bohat phategi.


Guess what, most of our 'neighbours' are hell bent proving how Tejas did not do good and not a good aircraft even with their own 'idiotic' explanations and conclusions. I am loving this insecurity though. Before this air show, same bunch of guys were mocking Tejas. Gandhi truly said 'First they ignore you, then they'll mock you, then they'll fight you and then you win'.

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## mirage

Bossman said:


> The only praise I have heard is from fanboys on this forum. Can you post some links to credible neutral aviation experts and their opinion of Tejas's first outing.


*same goes true for the critics **of tejas* , Can you post some links to credible neutral aviation experts and their opinion of Tejas's first outing ????


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## Dazzler

Aero said:


> It is not necessary to troll if you don't have anything good to say.
> 
> Why you can't have any serious discussion?



So much pessimism but that's understandable. When someone asks about "maximum speed", a figure should be given, for e.g Mach 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 etc. I guess your guys were over cautious.

And it was a cautious display at best, which is understandable as its was teja's first appearence in an international airshow.


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## cerberus

Dazzler said:


> So much pessimism but that's understandable. When someone asks about "maximum speed", a figure should be given, for e.g Mach 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 etc. I guess your guys were over cautious.
> 
> And it was a cautious display at best, which is understandable as its was teja's first appearence in an international airshow.


The maximum speed of LCA is 1.79 for FOC 

Although practically this speed only can achieved for few minutes of the flight if don't what your fuel tank get empty.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> So much pessimism but that's understandable. When someone asks about "maximum speed", a figure should be given, for e.g Mach 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 etc. I guess your guys were over cautious.
> 
> And it was a cautious display at best, which is understandable as its was teja's first appearence in an international airshow.


Here we go...I wish I could do the same rant in PDF for JF17 product from china with pilots flying in pakistan,while kamra doing assembling of SKU or FKU UNITS.

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Here we go...I wish I could do the same rant in PDF for JF17 product from china with pilots flying in pakistan,while kamra doing assembling of SKU or FKU UNITS.



Where did u see a rant in this post?? My word!


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## Abingdonboy

Bossman said:


> Stupid that is from CATICs factory at Chengdu not a deployment for operations or airshows and I even have one picture of JF17 with a GPU at a deployment and if you had read my previous posts I never said that JF17 don't use them but it seems like an exception not the rule. You hardly see them during deployment *but it seems that the Tejas cannot go without them anywhere
> *
> Check here High resolution pictures of JF-17 | Page 24


Just drop it geez, clutching at straws doesn't even begin to cover this desperation


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## Bossman

Abingdonboy said:


> Just drop it geez, clutching at straws doesn't even begin to cover this desperation



What straws? I asked you a simple question and I got long winded responses which has led to the conclusion that the Tejas cannot operate without its GPUs and hence it is a logistics nightmare and a maintenance hog. This is the biggest takeaway of Tejas's appearance at the Bahrain Airshow. I am sure a lot of other folks including PAF and PLAAF is coming to the same conclusions. If you are still on your high because it did some lazy loops on the show, that is your problem.


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## surya kiran

Bossman said:


> What straws? I asked you a simple question and I got long winded responses which has led to the conclusion that the Tejas cannot operate without its GPUs and hence it is a logistics nightmare and a maintenance hog. This is the biggest takeaway of Tejas's appearance at the Bahrain Airshow. I am sure a lot of other folks including PAF and PLAAF is coming to the same conclusions. If you are still on your high because it did some lazy loops on the show, that is your problem.



You are right. The IAF, which has tried its best to not take the Tejas, is accepting it though it cannot start properly without assistance. 

And yes, every Tejas needs a separate GPU to ensure it starts. Every air base around the country will have one on stand by just in case the Tejas lands over there during combat operations. Its like a switchboard we find in rooms. Every room has one. In the same way, we have GPUs every where. Including outside my house.

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## kalibr

Hal Tejas 2nd day performance





from 1:07:00

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## Ankit Kumar

@Bossman
We have GPUs for each Tejas because we can afford it. Simple as that. And don't you worry about its deployment, every airbase in India has enough GPUs. Thanks to our defence budget which does not depend upon foreign aid.

And for technical knowledge, GPUs are not necessary to start up the aircraft, it provides power to the aircraft when the main power Plant is not being used and one wants to save the APUs so that they can start the aircraft power Plant without any other constraints .
Its just being cautious on our part.

Don't try to read between the lines and create a image which does not exist in reality.

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## kaykay

kalibr said:


> Hal Tejas 2nd day performance


I can't see video....


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## kalibr

kaykay said:


> I can't see video....


try now

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## nik22

kalibr said:


> Hal Tejas 2nd day performance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from 1:07:00


love the move at 1:15:45


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## Taygibay

Bossman said:


> ... the conclusion that the Tejas cannot operate without its GPUs and hence it is a logistics nightmare and a maintenance hog.



That's not sustainable logic, Bossman!
I know guys who have wives but those missus are never on the pictures with them.
Sometimes it's because the photos are from work and sometimes the bloke is ashamed
but in either case, the wifey does exist?
And I highly doubt that the Thunder maintenance can be done entirely with 2 laptops, no
matter how rugged as that would make it the easiest fighter to care for worldwide.

Even if we were to assume that the Tejas requires more maintenance ( without saying hog ),
it likely is due to its genesis. I'm no big fan of the LCA myself mate but as I explained to the
less sensitive Indians, the value of it may not be in the product but in the process.

Let's be critical and start by saying that the LCA is barely enough to replace MiG 21s. Fine!
We'll suppose a couple hundreds to be made and used in that role. We'll suppose further that
the naval version never comes. Tejas serves 25 years-_ish_ and is then phased out.

If all the lessons are learned and serve as a basis to build a much better successor, it's OK.
By comparison, Pakistan was less ambitious, with a second role in the JF_17 under China's lead.
Assuming the plane to be as useful to the PAF as Tejas for its own, ( Thunder has a bigger role
but smaller planned numbers ), it would seem fair to expect that ToT returns will be lesser.
So better aircraft with less knowledge gained vs outdated air scooter but lots of empirical gains?
How would each justify their choices?

In a nutshell, jet fighter programs do not exist in a vacuum!

If your citizens are cavemen but for some reason you feel the need to protect them with jet fighters,
you'll need to buy the plane since you can't build even the cockpit ashtray on your own, right?
Yeah, well, not only the plane, bro! The plane *and* the maintenance guys *and* the pilots and so on
will *all* have to come from the outside.
Some African countries are famous for having bought simple enough MiGs and Sukhois and having
those flown by Russian or South African "military advisors/mercenaries". The moment cash dwindled,
they were left with unusable ACs and thus virtually no AF to speak of.

In reverse, if you have all it takes to build Deathstars, you do that then slap on a hefty dose of propag ...
huh, say publicity to convince the whole planet your stuff can't be beaten and sell it either for profit or
as a way to infeudate them to you, sometimes both!
That would cover extremes like Palau and the US ( no offense to either ) but what of the rest of the gang?

India has enough cash, few trustworthy friends and loads of patience ( born out of their strange relation to
time ) : they go for the drawn out solution that should pay in a couple decades.
Pakistan has a helpful friend or two but little cash and a sense of clear and present danger : it goes for what
will serve ASAP and accepts that local production of star fighters can wait.
It's that simple!

Of course, at the moment, Thunder is more useful but that is a snap pic out of a timeline my man!
The ultimate goal, let's not forget, would be to manufacture the fighter you need from inception to
retirement which darn few countries can do alone.
In order to judge how well each approach worked, we'll have to wait.

Plus, how do you measure success? Two friends decide to become runners : one aims for 10K while
the other contends in the 5k race. The former falls short of the finish line or time limit while the latter
comes in with a last place but completion attained. One did the job but the other ran longer; who won?
They can discuss it acrimoniously for eons without conclusion ... but if you ask the peeps on the podium,
it really doesn't matter as they celebrate and show off their medals?

If India faceplants partially with the LCA but gets up, dusts itself off and succeeds on their next attempt,
it will have been worthwhile. That's what training is all about, buddy!

The presence or size or colour of their GPUs, as funny as you may find it, is not a proof of anything, really.

Have a great day, Tay.

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## mirage

kaykay said:


> I can't see video....






 try this link

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## Sliver

Taygibay said:


> That's not sustainable logic, Bossman!
> I know guys who have wives but those missus are never on the pictures with them.
> Sometimes it's because the photos are from work and sometimes the bloke is ashamed
> but in either case, the wifey does exist?
> And I highly doubt that the Thunder maintenance can be done entirely with 2 laptops, no
> matter how rugged as that would make it the easiest fighter to care for worldwide.
> 
> Even if we were to assume that the Tejas requires more maintenance ( without saying hog ),
> it likely is due to its genesis. I'm no big fan of the LCA myself mate but as I explained to the
> less sensitive Indians, the value of it may not be in the product but in the process.
> 
> Let's be critical and start by saying that the LCA is barely enough to replace MiG 21s. Fine!
> We'll suppose a couple hundreds to be made and used in that role. We'll suppose further that
> the naval version never comes. Tejas serves 25 years-_ish_ and is then phased out.
> 
> If all the lessons are learned and serve as a basis to build a much better successor, it's OK.
> By comparison, Pakistan was less ambitious, with a second role in the JF_17 under China's lead.
> Assuming the plane to be as useful to the PAF as Tejas for its own, ( Thunder has a bigger role
> but smaller planned numbers ), it would seem fair to expect that ToT returns will be lesser.
> So better aircraft with less knowledge gained vs outdated air scooter but lots of empirical gains?
> How would each justify their choices?
> 
> In a nutshell, jet fighter programs do not exist in a vacuum!
> 
> If your citizens are cavemen but for some reason you feel the need to protect them with jet fighters,
> you'll need to buy the plane since you can't build even the cockpit ashtray on your own, right?
> Yeah, well, not only the plane, bro! The plane *and* the maintenance guys *and* the pilots and so on
> will *all* have to come from the outside.
> Some African countries are famous for having bought simple enough MiGs and Sukhois and having
> those flown by Russian or South African "military advisors/mercenaries". The moment cash dwindled,
> they were left with unusable ACs and thus virtually no AF to speak of.
> 
> In reverse, if you have all it takes to build Deathstars, you do that then slap on a hefty does of propag ...
> huh, say publicity to convince the whole planet your stuff can't be beaten and sell it either for profit or
> as a way to infeudate them to you, sometimes both!
> That would cover extremes like Palau and the US ( no offense to either ) but what of the rest of the gang?
> 
> India has enough cash, few trustworthy friends and loads of patience ( born out of their strange relation to
> time ) : they go for the drawn out solution that should pay in a couple decades.
> Pakistan has a helpful friend or two but little cash and a sense of clear and present danger : it goes for what
> will serve ASAP and accepts that local production of star fighters can wait.
> It's that simple!
> 
> Of course, at the moment, Thunder is more useful but that is a snap pic out of a timeline my man!
> The ultimate goal, let's not forget, would be to manufacture the fighter you need from inception to
> retirement which darn few countries can do alone.
> In order to judge how well each approach worked, we'll have to wait.
> 
> Plus, how do you measure success? Two friends decide to become runners : one aims for 10K while
> the other contends in the 5k race. The former falls short of the finish line or time limit while the latter
> comes in with a last place but completion attained. One did the job but the other ran longer; who won?
> They can discuss it acrimoniously for eons without conclusion ... but if you ask the peeps on the podium,
> it really doesn't matter as they celebrate and show off their medals?
> 
> If India faceplants partially with the LCA but gets up, dust itself off and succeeds on their next attempt,
> it will have been worthwhile. That's what training is all about, buddy!
> 
> The presence or size or colour other GPUs, as funny as you may find it, is not a proof of anything, really.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.



very well written. Loved the analogy of the two runners who ran an unfinished 10k race and a last placed 5k run. and also very well explained why the two thought processes behind the two aircraft cannot be compared!


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## Taygibay

Thank you for that comment, Sliver! I try to rely on simple logic as a crutch deluxe, 
to compensate for an innate ability of humans to make complex stories out of too few elements.
Making things out is easy, making sense is difficult. Handling synchronicity is for geniuses only.

 

Good evening to you, Tay.

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## Grevion

Any news on the FOC anyone?? Is it delayed further then march??
Any news on the Naval version?


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## sathya

BVR firing in March, 
Gun firing relaxed for FOC 
Cob ham nose cone ground tested

All is well, i think..

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## Great Sachin

where is day 3 show?


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## mkb95

*106 upgraded Tejas jets to replace MiGs*








The Ministry of Defence has decided to locally produce 106 upgraded Light Combat Aircraft “Tejas” jets to replace the ageing fleet of MiG fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force.

The “Tejas Mark 1-A” will have 43 improvements over the existing Tejas currently being test-flown by the IAF for various 
parameters and slated for final operation clearance in March. The existing project is running years behind schedule.

Sources told The Tribune that a decision has been taken to produce 106 “Tejas Mark 1-A” jets and the same has been conveyed to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), besides the manufacturer — Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking owned by MoD.

The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-2023. In September, new specifications were agreed upon and the IAF accepted 43 modifications that could be carried out without changing the existing design.

On the list of modifications are five major improvements, including an AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, which the HAL will co-develop with Israel firm Elta; air-to-air refuelling facility; externally fitted self-protection jammer to prevent incoming enemy missiles from homing in using radar signature; and a new layout, involving 27 modifications, of internal systems to iron out maintenance issues.

The plane will be 1,000 kg lighter than the existing version, which currently weighs 6,500 kg, but will use the same engine — General Electric’s 404. “The power of the engine is more than enough,” said a senior functionary. Fitting the newer and more powerful GE-414 engine would entail fresh design and airframe studies.

The HAL has been asked to produce 16 jets annually and a Rs 1,252-crore modernisation plan has been okayed to ramp up capacities from the present six-seven planes annually.

The decision will go a long way in keeping the IAF battle-ready. The upgraded jets will fill the void created by MiG-21s and MiG-27s that will be phased out by 2022.

There are 260 Soviet-era single-engine MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets in the IAF fleet. The air force needs 400 jets over the next 10 years.


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## Abingdonboy

kalibr said:


> Hal Tejas 2nd day performance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from 1:07:00


Any link to the full video of day 1? No Sarang or F-22 performances on day 2


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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/695547583997972480
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @anant_s

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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/695559180434825216
Sometime earlier 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/695541123125653504

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## PARIKRAMA

Congrats...
Excellent.. One more step forward towards FOC...

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## mkb95

*Anantha Krishnan M*
*✈* ‏@*writetake* 
#*BreakingNews* #*Tejas* successfully fires a missile at Jamnagar. Details awaited. Derby or Python, not sure. #*IAF*











*Anantha Krishnan M*
*✈* ‏@*writetake* 
#*breakingNews* Confirmations come in. #*Tejas* fires Derby BVR missile successfully.

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## Guynextdoor2

Excellent!!


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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> Congrats...
> Excellent.. One more step forward towards FOC...



Any idea how many more milestones remaining for FOC?

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## PARIKRAMA

@Ankit Kumar 

Livefists article from 2013 made some points
*What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready*

1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G). DONE as per FB

2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°). Done as per FB.

3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
LSP-8 has been integrated with Cobham's IFR probe and is undergoing ground tests as per FB.

4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile.
DONE TODAY

5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile.
Probably same as above.

6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon.
Removed from FOC and pushed back to Mk1A as per FB.

7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
DONT KNOW

8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
Integration and ground tests with Cobham's Quartz radome have been completed as per FB. Flight tests to commence soon.

9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
Braking issues have been fixed as per FB.

10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs.
1000 lbs mk11 unguided bombs, LGBs and PB500 successfully tested as per FB. CCM R-73 has been fired over a dozen times and has been guided by MMR/HMDS as per tarmak007.

LIVEFIST: What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mkb95

which verson of derby (or derby-er) was it?


----------



## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Ankit Kumar
> 
> Livefists article from 2013 made some points
> *What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready*
> 
> 1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G). DONE as per FB
> 
> 2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°). Done as per FB.
> 
> 3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
> LSP-8 has been integrated with Cobham's IFR probe and is undergoing ground tests as per FB.
> 
> 4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile.
> DONE TODAY
> 
> 5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile.
> Probably same as above.
> 
> 6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon.
> Removed from FOC and pushed back to Mk1A as per FB.
> 
> 7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
> DONT KNOW
> 
> 8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
> Integration and ground tests with Cobham's Quartz radome have been completed as per FB. Flight tests to commence soon.
> 
> 9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
> Braking issues have been fixed as per FB.
> 
> 10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs.
> 1000 lbs mk11 unguided bombs, LGBs and PB500 successfully tested as per FB. CCM R-73 has been fired over a dozen times and has been guided by MMR/HMDS as per tarmak007.
> 
> LIVEFIST: What It'll Take For India's Tejas To Be FULLY Ready



Last week news was there that the missile firing will happen by Feb end, or early March ..... but it was quick.... going by the standards of time management, this is a big achievement in itself. 

On the above, most of the things seems to be sorted out, personally speaking, I feel FOC will not happen in last quarter, rather by the middle of this year. 

One problem which needs to be resolved is the production rate of HAL. I am not too optimistic about it now.



mkb95 said:


> which verson of derby (or derby-er) was it?


Nothing much is out till now. Wait for some time, everyone is busy in IFR.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## kaykay

Great achievement. Now the only thing remain to be seen is IFR probe integration ( which is on going currently afaik). Once done, we have a true fourth generation aircraft ready to serve.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PARIKRAMA

I think we will see maximum by Q2. But we never know we may squeeze it by March end or max April too..


----------



## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> I think we will see maximum by Q2. But we never know we may squeeze it by March end or max April too..


Expect a few more Derby tests in coming hours. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/695586307834118144

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## rockstarIN

Congratulations. ..A firm step towards FOC

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sathya

I thought of March ..

But this is a pleasant surprise ..

Would be wonderful if any videos are made available .. Will have to wait on this.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## [Bregs]

Final clearance is approaching near now HAL needs to tighten its resources so as not to fumble in timely delivery

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sathya

Ankit Kumar said:


> Expect a few more Derby tests in coming hours.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/695586307834118144



I guess from navy s inventory ...


----------



## Abingdonboy



Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## ultron

Is SP-2 ready for delivery this year


----------



## indiatester

ultron said:


> Is SP-2 ready for delivery this year


I guess you are not going to tip the delivery guy.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## PARIKRAMA

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/696276126339969024







@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @nair @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @scorpionx @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @cerberus
@Levina @anant_s @Koovie @MilSpec @Parul @nair @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @ayesha.a @kbd-raaf @Roybot @IndoUS @Joe Shearer @danish_vij @Vauban @samlove @ranjeet @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @Neptune @Dandpatta @mkb95 @Unknowncommando @Star Wars @JanjaWeed @waz @axisofevil @srnair@Tshering22 @hinduguy @Steve781 @Chanakya's_Chant @Oscar @Dash @Taygibay @DavidSling @mike2000 is back @Technogaianist @Penguin @Capt.Popeye @Chinese-Dragon @Span @joekrish @knight11 @janon @MastanKhan @Khafee @Ind4Ever @jarves @Hindustani78 @Ankit Kumar @egodoc222 @500 @The DJANGO @Kinetic @The_Showstopper @James Jaevid @The_Sidewinder @AMCA @SRP @XiNiX @Mirza Jatt @arp2041 @IndoCarib @Irfan Baloch @Stag112 @sathya @SrNair @Guynextdoor2 @Nilgiri @Echo_419 @kaykay @Kushal Sinha

Thats the video converted to gif done to show the firing....

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## Taygibay

Downward turn to the left? Can we get the full vid, do you think?

Pliz Tay_lor._


----------



## Levina

PARIKRAMA said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/696276126339969024
> View attachment 292405
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @nair @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @scorpionx @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @cerberus
> @Levina @anant_s @Koovie @MilSpec @Parul @nair @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @ayesha.a @kbd-raaf @Roybot @IndoUS @Joe Shearer @danish_vij @Vauban @samlove @ranjeet @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @Neptune @Dandpatta @mkb95 @Unknowncommando @Star Wars @JanjaWeed @waz @axisofevil @srnair@Tshering22 @hinduguy @Steve781 @Chanakya's_Chant @Oscar @Dash @Taygibay @DavidSling @mike2000 is back @Technogaianist @Penguin @Capt.Popeye @Chinese-Dragon @Span @joekrish @knight11 @janon @MastanKhan @Khafee @Ind4Ever @jarves @Hindustani78 @Ankit Kumar @egodoc222 @500 @The DJANGO @Kinetic @The_Showstopper @James Jaevid @The_Sidewinder @AMCA @SRP @XiNiX @Mirza Jatt @arp2041 @IndoCarib @Irfan Baloch @Stag112 @sathya @SrNair @Guynextdoor2 @Nilgiri @Echo_419 @kaykay @Kushal Sinha
> 
> Thats the video converted to gif done to show the firing....


Long back i had seen LCA Tejas at display with derby and python






Okay now, i have a doubt, i might sound stupid (not unusual!) but i want this cleared.
Is the unguided mode of a missile same as non-intercept mode? 
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @anant_s 



@WAJsal 
My notifications are not working. 



Taygibay said:


> Downward turn to the left? Can we get the full vid, do you think?
> 
> Pliz Tay_lor._


A video of 4 seconds...thats it.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Taygibay

Thnx milady! It's way to short to derive an understanding of what happened, sadly!
Let's hope we get the long version, a wider angle or simply a description of the trial.

As for your question, in a non-intercept mode, a flight path still exist without a target.
If you fire a missile unguided, it acts like an old-school rocket or a cannon projectile.
And unless you have a datalink down to it, it stays that way.

You'd use non-intercept for boosters and FCS trials prior to intercepts attempts and 
unguided for any separation test or other mechanical verification of compatibility.

Have a great day, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## Levina

Taygibay said:


> Thnx milady! It's way to short to derive an understanding of what happened, sadly!
> Let's hope we get the long version, a wider angle or simply a description of the trial.
> 
> As for your question, in a non-intercept mode, a flight path still exist without a target.
> If you fire a missile unguided, it acts like an old-school rocket or a cannon projectile.
> And unless you have a datalink down to it, it stays that way.
> 
> You'd use non-intercept for boosters and FCS trials prior to intercepts attempts and
> unguided for any separation test or other mechanical verification of compatibility.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.


Thank you much. 

i have a request to make...could you please learn to tag or atleast quote others? 
I am already having issues with my notification system and I dont want to miss out on the replies.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Levina said:


> Okay now, i have a doubt, i might sound stupid (not unusual!) but i want this cleared.
> Is the unguided mode of a missile same as non-intercept mode?





Taygibay said:


> Thnx milady! It's way to short to derive an understanding of what happened, sadly!
> Let's hope we get the long version, a wider angle or simply a description of the trial.
> 
> As for your question, in a non-intercept mode, a flight path still exist without a target.
> If you fire a missile unguided, it acts like an old-school rocket or a cannon projectile.
> And unless you have a datalink down to it, it stays that way.
> 
> You'd use non-intercept for boosters and FCS trials prior to intercepts attempts and
> unguided for any separation test or other mechanical verification of compatibility.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.



levina, tay, i had written this in another thread.. perhaps this may help


You are correct in asking this question.. And answer lies in the beauty of A2A missiles.. I may not be very precise as my field knowledge and class notes are pretty old and i have forgotten a lot too.. But let me try and give a little brief

First Derby Missile
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx





So we know Derby's guidance system is Active Radar Seeker

Now theory states that

Radar guidance system detects and move over their flight path towards end target by sensing EM waves reflected from target aircraft's surface
These reflected radiation requires a radar transmitter to continuously illuminate the target
Thus there are different sources of such guidance as under







The role of transmitter is clearly to beam EM waves at the target, receive the reflected data to the receiver antenna of the missile, analyse it further and determine the course and corrections if any to the guidance computer to steer the missile towards the target to achieve a kill.
Of course there are issues which the receptor must tackle like reflections to quality etc etc in order to ensure the determination is accurate.

Now comes the bigger issue. Once a A2A missile is launched there are 3 phases of guidance

1. Launch Phase/ Program Maneuver phase
2. Mid course phase
3. Terminal phase

The Program Maneuver phase is simply the separation of missile from the aircraft and is clear of the aircraft just after launch. its full independent of anything related to the target or its position.

The Mid course Phase comes online or initiated just after the first phase completion and its major function is to place the missile within terminal acquisition range of the target with the seeker pointed at the target.

The moment Missile comes within Terminal acquisition phase the last phase or Terminal phase is initialized. Its basically the last part of the flightpath and is the most crucial part as its success determines a successful hit or miss. In the terminal phase, based on the reflections received at the receiver antenna, the objective is clearly to place the missile to get a successful hit on the aircraft. It basically locks on the target and tries to cover the distance as quickly as possible with two possible chief challenges of limited on board fuel and maneuvering limitations. More than directly scoring a hit, its more of a proximity detonation. Thus the effectiveness of this phase is based on how close the missile gets to the target

See this to quickly understand what i said above




Source old notes

and in terminal phase see this




Source: http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx Derby Brochure..

The same points in guidance is there in a SAM too but first phase of launch phase is known as boost phase.

Now some more concepts.. Different category of homing guidance
Active Homing : An active homing guidance system is one in which both the source of energy to illuminate the target and the receiver of the energy reflected from the target are carried in the missile. Hence, the missile contains a transmitting
antenna, a receiving antenna, and a receiver. It also carries within it the signal processor and the guidance computer.





Semi-Active Homing : A system wherein the transmitter of the energy is at a point external to the missile, but the receiver is inside the missile. The missile contains a receiving antenna, a signal processor, and a guidance computer. Since the
transmitting antenna is located externally normally carried by launch craft or ground antenna it has less autonomy than active homing guidance.






Passive Homing : In this system, in which the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. It does not require a transmitter. A heat seeking missile uses such a system. The missile contains the receiver for the the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. The missile contains the receiver for the kind of energy that the target emanates, a signal processor, and a guidance computer.





Derby uses Active Radar Homing but in terminal phase. Thus, the missile during mid course needs a link via which it gets information for its course and correction requirement. Thus the aircraft and missile via a DATALINK must share this information and the launch aircraft must continue to illuminate the target so that the mid course can steer the missile uptill the terminal acquisition phase when the terminal guidance takes over. This is very important as the target plane may be using different air maneuvers to continuously try and change position to evade correct course of the missile. The other possibility is use of GPS which takes over the responsibility of the launch aircraft providing illumination.

Derby does nt have GPS guidance.Now sadly by continuous illumination the launch aircraft is putting itself on risk. Certain times illumination duty is taken over by AWACS/Mini AWACS as their longer range and a separate entity solves the problem of illumination based targeting of the launch aircraft.

And last 2 concepts
LOBL: lock on before launch and LOAL: lock on after launch

The LOBL mode allows the launch aircraft pilot to confirm the missile is locked on to the designated target prior to launch, gives high kill probability against short-range high-maneuvering targets and enables the engagement of designated targets by on board guidance normally used in terminal phase. The LOAL mode basically does everything that LOBL does with just one difference that lock on happens after the launch and is basically guided terminal course to the lock.

If the target is within seeker acquisition range which is generally very short and is estimated to be just above minimum range, the missile is launched in LOBL mode. If the target is beyond seeker acquisition range the missile is launched in LOAL mode. The seeker searches for the target and switches to homing phase when the target is acquired. Both the Derby and the Python 5 missiles can operate in LOBL and LOAL modes.

This means Derby operates in LOBL mode for short-range target engagement and LOAL mode for medium-range engagements.

By the use of BNG (Ballistic Non Guided) mode it seems the Tejas has not provided the mid course guidance. It can imply that range of Derby fired is small and just above its minimum range. Normally its assumed that minimum range is 10-15% of declared range which in this case is 10-15% of 65 Km or 6.5-10 Kms (Derby has a range of 65 km when launched by an aircraft travelling at 0.9 M at 25000 Ft head on.. While actual max range or minimum range is classified)

So being just above minimum range, at the time of launch itself its basically LOBL, the terminal acquisition phase is activated right after Program Maneuverable Phase/Launch phase and skipping Mid course phase. Thus no guidance provided and is non guided terminology

It looks like there would be a series of tests with increase in ranges to see how the mid course guidance works out in a phased manner. Especially bcz the radar used may be EL/M 2032 MMR the limitation of range will definitely effect the guidance part for Derby maximum range which will be corrected with more powerful 2052 AESA. This makes me believe strongly every test will see a phase wise increase in range and through evaluation of system working optimally at every phase of the missile guidance.

Hope it clears all the doubts..

‪#‎BreakingNews‬ Confirmations come in. ‪#‎Tejas‬ fires Derby BVR missile successfully. | Page 2


++++

i got some +ve ratings for writing that ...just 2 ....

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Levina

PARIKRAMA said:


> i got some +ve ratings for writing that ...just 2 ..


congratulations you are now a certified PDF addict. 
Now let me read your post. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> levina, tay, i had written this in another thread.. perhaps this may help
> 
> 
> You are correct in asking this question.. And answer lies in the beauty of A2A missiles.. I may not be very precise as my field knowledge and class notes are pretty old and i have forgotten a lot too.. But let me try and give a little brief
> 
> First Derby Missile
> http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we know Derby's guidance system is Active Radar Seeker
> 
> Now theory states that
> 
> Radar guidance system detects and move over their flight path towards end target by sensing EM waves reflected from target aircraft's surface
> These reflected radiation requires a radar transmitter to continuously illuminate the target
> Thus there are different sources of such guidance as under
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The role of transmitter is clearly to beam EM waves at the target, receive the reflected data to the receiver antenna of the missile, analyse it further and determine the course and corrections if any to the guidance computer to steer the missile towards the target to achieve a kill.
> Of course there are issues which the receptor must tackle like reflections to quality etc etc in order to ensure the determination is accurate.
> 
> Now comes the bigger issue. Once a A2A missile is launched there are 3 phases of guidance
> 
> 1. Launch Phase/ Program Maneuver phase
> 2. Mid course phase
> 3. Terminal phase
> 
> The Program Maneuver phase is simply the separation of missile from the aircraft and is clear of the aircraft just after launch. its full independent of anything related to the target or its position.
> 
> The Mid course Phase comes online or initiated just after the first phase completion and its major function is to place the missile within terminal acquisition range of the target with the seeker pointed at the target.
> 
> The moment Missile comes within Terminal acquisition phase the last phase or Terminal phase is initialized. Its basically the last part of the flightpath and is the most crucial part as its success determines a successful hit or miss. In the terminal phase, based on the reflections received at the receiver antenna, the objective is clearly to place the missile to get a successful hit on the aircraft. It basically locks on the target and tries to cover the distance as quickly as possible with two possible chief challenges of limited on board fuel and maneuvering limitations. More than directly scoring a hit, its more of a proximity detonation. Thus the effectiveness of this phase is based on how close the missile gets to the target
> 
> See this to quickly understand what i said above
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source old notes
> 
> and in terminal phase see this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx Derby Brochure..
> 
> The same points in guidance is there in a SAM too but first phase of launch phase is known as boost phase.
> 
> Now some more concepts.. Different category of homing guidance
> Active Homing : An active homing guidance system is one in which both the source of energy to illuminate the target and the receiver of the energy reflected from the target are carried in the missile. Hence, the missile contains a transmitting
> antenna, a receiving antenna, and a receiver. It also carries within it the signal processor and the guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semi-Active Homing : A system wherein the transmitter of the energy is at a point external to the missile, but the receiver is inside the missile. The missile contains a receiving antenna, a signal processor, and a guidance computer. Since the
> transmitting antenna is located externally normally carried by launch craft or ground antenna it has less autonomy than active homing guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passive Homing : In this system, in which the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. It does not require a transmitter. A heat seeking missile uses such a system. The missile contains the receiver for the the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. The missile contains the receiver for the kind of energy that the target emanates, a signal processor, and a guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derby uses Active Radar Homing but in terminal phase. Thus, the missile during mid course needs a link via which it gets information for its course and correction requirement. Thus the aircraft and missile via a DATALINK must share this information and the launch aircraft must continue to illuminate the target so that the mid course can steer the missile uptill the terminal acquisition phase when the terminal guidance takes over. This is very important as the target plane may be using different air maneuvers to continuously try and change position to evade correct course of the missile. The other possibility is use of GPS which takes over the responsibility of the launch aircraft providing illumination.
> 
> Derby does nt have GPS guidance.Now sadly by continuous illumination the launch aircraft is putting itself on risk. Certain times illumination duty is taken over by AWACS/Mini AWACS as their longer range and a separate entity solves the problem of illumination based targeting of the launch aircraft.
> 
> And last 2 concepts
> LOBL: lock on before launch and LOAL: lock on after launch
> 
> The LOBL mode allows the launch aircraft pilot to confirm the missile is locked on to the designated target prior to launch, gives high kill probability against short-range high-maneuvering targets and enables the engagement of designated targets by on board guidance normally used in terminal phase. The LOAL mode basically does everything that LOBL does with just one difference that lock on happens after the launch and is basically guided terminal course to the lock.
> 
> If the target is within seeker acquisition range which is generally very short and is estimated to be just above minimum range, the missile is launched in LOBL mode. If the target is beyond seeker acquisition range the missile is launched in LOAL mode. The seeker searches for the target and switches to homing phase when the target is acquired. Both the Derby and the Python 5 missiles can operate in LOBL and LOAL modes.
> 
> This means Derby operates in LOBL mode for short-range target engagement and LOAL mode for medium-range engagements.
> 
> By the use of BNG (Ballistic Non Guided) mode it seems the Tejas has not provided the mid course guidance. It can imply that range of Derby fired is small and just above its minimum range. Normally its assumed that minimum range is 10-15% of declared range which in this case is 10-15% of 65 Km or 6.5-10 Kms (Derby has a range of 65 km when launched by an aircraft travelling at 0.9 M at 25000 Ft head on.. While actual max range or minimum range is classified)
> 
> So being just above minimum range, at the time of launch itself its basically LOBL, the terminal acquisition phase is activated right after Program Maneuverable Phase/Launch phase and skipping Mid course phase. Thus no guidance provided and is non guided terminology
> 
> It looks like there would be a series of tests with increase in ranges to see how the mid course guidance works out in a phased manner. Especially bcz the radar used may be EL/M 2032 MMR the limitation of range will definitely effect the guidance part for Derby maximum range which will be corrected with more powerful 2052 AESA. This makes me believe strongly every test will see a phase wise increase in range and through evaluation of system working optimally at every phase of the missile guidance.
> 
> Hope it clears all the doubts..
> 
> ‪#‎BreakingNews‬ Confirmations come in. ‪#‎Tejas‬ fires Derby BVR missile successfully. | Page 2
> 
> 
> ++++
> 
> i got some +ve ratings for writing that ...just 2 ....


Thanks a lot.
That was a very good explanation. 


will torture you more when in doubt. 
lolz

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GORKHALI

PARIKRAMA said:


> levina, tay, i had written this in another thread.. perhaps this may help
> 
> 
> You are correct in asking this question.. And answer lies in the beauty of A2A missiles.. I may not be very precise as my field knowledge and class notes are pretty old and i have forgotten a lot too.. But let me try and give a little brief
> 
> First Derby Missile
> http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we know Derby's guidance system is Active Radar Seeker
> 
> Now theory states that
> 
> Radar guidance system detects and move over their flight path towards end target by sensing EM waves reflected from target aircraft's surface
> These reflected radiation requires a radar transmitter to continuously illuminate the target
> Thus there are different sources of such guidance as under
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The role of transmitter is clearly to beam EM waves at the target, receive the reflected data to the receiver antenna of the missile, analyse it further and determine the course and corrections if any to the guidance computer to steer the missile towards the target to achieve a kill.
> Of course there are issues which the receptor must tackle like reflections to quality etc etc in order to ensure the determination is accurate.
> 
> Now comes the bigger issue. Once a A2A missile is launched there are 3 phases of guidance
> 
> 1. Launch Phase/ Program Maneuver phase
> 2. Mid course phase
> 3. Terminal phase
> 
> The Program Maneuver phase is simply the separation of missile from the aircraft and is clear of the aircraft just after launch. its full independent of anything related to the target or its position.
> 
> The Mid course Phase comes online or initiated just after the first phase completion and its major function is to place the missile within terminal acquisition range of the target with the seeker pointed at the target.
> 
> The moment Missile comes within Terminal acquisition phase the last phase or Terminal phase is initialized. Its basically the last part of the flightpath and is the most crucial part as its success determines a successful hit or miss. In the terminal phase, based on the reflections received at the receiver antenna, the objective is clearly to place the missile to get a successful hit on the aircraft. It basically locks on the target and tries to cover the distance as quickly as possible with two possible chief challenges of limited on board fuel and maneuvering limitations. More than directly scoring a hit, its more of a proximity detonation. Thus the effectiveness of this phase is based on how close the missile gets to the target
> 
> See this to quickly understand what i said above
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source old notes
> 
> and in terminal phase see this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx Derby Brochure..
> 
> The same points in guidance is there in a SAM too but first phase of launch phase is known as boost phase.
> 
> Now some more concepts.. Different category of homing guidance
> Active Homing : An active homing guidance system is one in which both the source of energy to illuminate the target and the receiver of the energy reflected from the target are carried in the missile. Hence, the missile contains a transmitting
> antenna, a receiving antenna, and a receiver. It also carries within it the signal processor and the guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semi-Active Homing : A system wherein the transmitter of the energy is at a point external to the missile, but the receiver is inside the missile. The missile contains a receiving antenna, a signal processor, and a guidance computer. Since the
> transmitting antenna is located externally normally carried by launch craft or ground antenna it has less autonomy than active homing guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passive Homing : In this system, in which the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. It does not require a transmitter. A heat seeking missile uses such a system. The missile contains the receiver for the the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. The missile contains the receiver for the kind of energy that the target emanates, a signal processor, and a guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derby uses Active Radar Homing but in terminal phase. Thus, the missile during mid course needs a link via which it gets information for its course and correction requirement. Thus the aircraft and missile via a DATALINK must share this information and the launch aircraft must continue to illuminate the target so that the mid course can steer the missile uptill the terminal acquisition phase when the terminal guidance takes over. This is very important as the target plane may be using different air maneuvers to continuously try and change position to evade correct course of the missile. The other possibility is use of GPS which takes over the responsibility of the launch aircraft providing illumination.
> 
> Derby does nt have GPS guidance.Now sadly by continuous illumination the launch aircraft is putting itself on risk. Certain times illumination duty is taken over by AWACS/Mini AWACS as their longer range and a separate entity solves the problem of illumination based targeting of the launch aircraft.
> 
> And last 2 concepts
> LOBL: lock on before launch and LOAL: lock on after launch
> 
> The LOBL mode allows the launch aircraft pilot to confirm the missile is locked on to the designated target prior to launch, gives high kill probability against short-range high-maneuvering targets and enables the engagement of designated targets by on board guidance normally used in terminal phase. The LOAL mode basically does everything that LOBL does with just one difference that lock on happens after the launch and is basically guided terminal course to the lock.
> 
> If the target is within seeker acquisition range which is generally very short and is estimated to be just above minimum range, the missile is launched in LOBL mode. If the target is beyond seeker acquisition range the missile is launched in LOAL mode. The seeker searches for the target and switches to homing phase when the target is acquired. Both the Derby and the Python 5 missiles can operate in LOBL and LOAL modes.
> 
> This means Derby operates in LOBL mode for short-range target engagement and LOAL mode for medium-range engagements.
> 
> By the use of BNG (Ballistic Non Guided) mode it seems the Tejas has not provided the mid course guidance. It can imply that range of Derby fired is small and just above its minimum range. Normally its assumed that minimum range is 10-15% of declared range which in this case is 10-15% of 65 Km or 6.5-10 Kms (Derby has a range of 65 km when launched by an aircraft travelling at 0.9 M at 25000 Ft head on.. While actual max range or minimum range is classified)
> 
> So being just above minimum range, at the time of launch itself its basically LOBL, the terminal acquisition phase is activated right after Program Maneuverable Phase/Launch phase and skipping Mid course phase. Thus no guidance provided and is non guided terminology
> 
> It looks like there would be a series of tests with increase in ranges to see how the mid course guidance works out in a phased manner. Especially bcz the radar used may be EL/M 2032 MMR the limitation of range will definitely effect the guidance part for Derby maximum range which will be corrected with more powerful 2052 AESA. This makes me believe strongly every test will see a phase wise increase in range and through evaluation of system working optimally at every phase of the missile guidance.
> 
> Hope it clears all the doubts..
> 
> ‪#‎BreakingNews‬ Confirmations come in. ‪#‎Tejas‬ fires Derby BVR missile successfully. | Page 2
> 
> 
> ++++
> 
> i got some +ve ratings for writing that ...just 2 ....


You will get more.... Lol

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## Guynextdoor2

GORKHALI said:


> You will get more.... Lol



I thought your were an ex-armed forces guy. You're not?

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## GORKHALI

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I thought your were an ex-armed forces guy. You're not?


No comments ..

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## Guynextdoor2

GORKHALI said:


> No comments ..



You might want to....I now thinking you're probably a college girl from Delhi. . Or maybe you're not in college anymore.



PARIKRAMA said:


> levina, tay, i had written this in another thread.. perhaps this may help
> 
> 
> You are correct in asking this question.. And answer lies in the beauty of A2A missiles.. I may not be very precise as my field knowledge and class notes are pretty old and i have forgotten a lot too.. But let me try and give a little brief
> 
> First Derby Missile
> http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we know Derby's guidance system is Active Radar Seeker
> 
> Now theory states that
> 
> Radar guidance system detects and move over their flight path towards end target by sensing EM waves reflected from target aircraft's surface
> These reflected radiation requires a radar transmitter to continuously illuminate the target
> Thus there are different sources of such guidance as under
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The role of transmitter is clearly to beam EM waves at the target, receive the reflected data to the receiver antenna of the missile, analyse it further and determine the course and corrections if any to the guidance computer to steer the missile towards the target to achieve a kill.
> Of course there are issues which the receptor must tackle like reflections to quality etc etc in order to ensure the determination is accurate.
> 
> Now comes the bigger issue. Once a A2A missile is launched there are 3 phases of guidance
> 
> 1. Launch Phase/ Program Maneuver phase
> 2. Mid course phase
> 3. Terminal phase
> 
> The Program Maneuver phase is simply the separation of missile from the aircraft and is clear of the aircraft just after launch. its full independent of anything related to the target or its position.
> 
> The Mid course Phase comes online or initiated just after the first phase completion and its major function is to place the missile within terminal acquisition range of the target with the seeker pointed at the target.
> 
> The moment Missile comes within Terminal acquisition phase the last phase or Terminal phase is initialized. Its basically the last part of the flightpath and is the most crucial part as its success determines a successful hit or miss. In the terminal phase, based on the reflections received at the receiver antenna, the objective is clearly to place the missile to get a successful hit on the aircraft. It basically locks on the target and tries to cover the distance as quickly as possible with two possible chief challenges of limited on board fuel and maneuvering limitations. More than directly scoring a hit, its more of a proximity detonation. Thus the effectiveness of this phase is based on how close the missile gets to the target
> 
> See this to quickly understand what i said above
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source old notes
> 
> and in terminal phase see this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/331-887-en/Marketing.aspx Derby Brochure..
> 
> The same points in guidance is there in a SAM too but first phase of launch phase is known as boost phase.
> 
> Now some more concepts.. Different category of homing guidance
> Active Homing : An active homing guidance system is one in which both the source of energy to illuminate the target and the receiver of the energy reflected from the target are carried in the missile. Hence, the missile contains a transmitting
> antenna, a receiving antenna, and a receiver. It also carries within it the signal processor and the guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semi-Active Homing : A system wherein the transmitter of the energy is at a point external to the missile, but the receiver is inside the missile. The missile contains a receiving antenna, a signal processor, and a guidance computer. Since the
> transmitting antenna is located externally normally carried by launch craft or ground antenna it has less autonomy than active homing guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passive Homing : In this system, in which the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. It does not require a transmitter. A heat seeking missile uses such a system. The missile contains the receiver for the the receiver, placed inside the missile, utilizes the energy emanating from the target. The missile contains the receiver for the kind of energy that the target emanates, a signal processor, and a guidance computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derby uses Active Radar Homing but in terminal phase. Thus, the missile during mid course needs a link via which it gets information for its course and correction requirement. Thus the aircraft and missile via a DATALINK must share this information and the launch aircraft must continue to illuminate the target so that the mid course can steer the missile uptill the terminal acquisition phase when the terminal guidance takes over. This is very important as the target plane may be using different air maneuvers to continuously try and change position to evade correct course of the missile. The other possibility is use of GPS which takes over the responsibility of the launch aircraft providing illumination.
> 
> Derby does nt have GPS guidance.Now sadly by continuous illumination the launch aircraft is putting itself on risk. Certain times illumination duty is taken over by AWACS/Mini AWACS as their longer range and a separate entity solves the problem of illumination based targeting of the launch aircraft.
> 
> And last 2 concepts
> LOBL: lock on before launch and LOAL: lock on after launch
> 
> The LOBL mode allows the launch aircraft pilot to confirm the missile is locked on to the designated target prior to launch, gives high kill probability against short-range high-maneuvering targets and enables the engagement of designated targets by on board guidance normally used in terminal phase. The LOAL mode basically does everything that LOBL does with just one difference that lock on happens after the launch and is basically guided terminal course to the lock.
> 
> If the target is within seeker acquisition range which is generally very short and is estimated to be just above minimum range, the missile is launched in LOBL mode. If the target is beyond seeker acquisition range the missile is launched in LOAL mode. The seeker searches for the target and switches to homing phase when the target is acquired. Both the Derby and the Python 5 missiles can operate in LOBL and LOAL modes.
> 
> This means Derby operates in LOBL mode for short-range target engagement and LOAL mode for medium-range engagements.
> 
> By the use of BNG (Ballistic Non Guided) mode it seems the Tejas has not provided the mid course guidance. It can imply that range of Derby fired is small and just above its minimum range. Normally its assumed that minimum range is 10-15% of declared range which in this case is 10-15% of 65 Km or 6.5-10 Kms (Derby has a range of 65 km when launched by an aircraft travelling at 0.9 M at 25000 Ft head on.. While actual max range or minimum range is classified)
> 
> So being just above minimum range, at the time of launch itself its basically LOBL, the terminal acquisition phase is activated right after Program Maneuverable Phase/Launch phase and skipping Mid course phase. Thus no guidance provided and is non guided terminology
> 
> It looks like there would be a series of tests with increase in ranges to see how the mid course guidance works out in a phased manner. Especially bcz the radar used may be EL/M 2032 MMR the limitation of range will definitely effect the guidance part for Derby maximum range which will be corrected with more powerful 2052 AESA. This makes me believe strongly every test will see a phase wise increase in range and through evaluation of system working optimally at every phase of the missile guidance.
> 
> Hope it clears all the doubts..
> 
> ‪#‎BreakingNews‬ Confirmations come in. ‪#‎Tejas‬ fires Derby BVR missile successfully. | Page 2
> 
> 
> ++++
> 
> i got some +ve ratings for writing that ...just 2 ....



wHY IS the flight path continuously in a 'lookdown' trajectory?

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## PARIKRAMA

Levina said:


> congratulations you are now a certified PDF addict.



certified pdf addict 









GORKHALI said:


> You will get more.... Lol

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## PARIKRAMA

Guynextdoor2 said:


> wHY IS the flight path continuously in a 'lookdown' trajectory?



derby has both look down and shoot down feature..

technically a missile test will first test look down mode operations as thats the first objective of removing clutter while looking at earth and seeker getting reflections from earth surface. once that phase is successfully passed, then it moves to the next step of shoot down.

ld/sd mode enables tejas to maintain point of advantage in altitude and targeting from a tactically advantageous position in a bvr engagement of using derby.

since i firmly believe no datalink was there nor any mid course guidance, the terminal phase seeker would have been tested solely for look down mode...

the next series of test would perhaps move towards shootdown followed by mid course update and datalink mode course correction.

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## Guynextdoor2

PARIKRAMA said:


> derby has both look down and shoot down feature..
> 
> technically a missile test will first test look down mode operations as thats the first objective of removing clutter while looking at earth and seeker getting reflections from earth surface. once that phase is successfully passed, then it moves to the next step of shoot down.
> 
> ld/sd mode enables tejas to maintain point of advantage in altitude and targeting from a tactically advantageous position in a bvr engagement of using derby.
> 
> since i firmly believe no datalink was there nor any mid course guidance, the terminal phase seeker would have been tested solely for look down mode...
> 
> the next series of test would perhaps move towards shootdown followed by mid course update and datalink mode course correction.



Is datalink guidance for midcourse correction an option for other aircraft like JF 17? From what I gather there capabilities on this front are quite limited.

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## PARIKRAMA

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Is datalink guidance for midcourse correction an option for other aircraft like JF 17? From what I gather there capabilities on this front are quite limited.


I know for sure elta 2032 and later 2052 are very capable of doing that via a data link.

The jf17 radar of klj I don't have much technical data.. So I can't comment as a precise thing. The update can be provided but for say a long range bvr you also require a more capable radar to handle such mid course flight corrections.

For a missile whose range is say max 70-80kms with klj radar range for detecting the rcs value at what distance will matter bcz based on that only it will update.. So head on it should be able to update , tail chase mode implying target is already on its way back, beyond a point it cannot provide the update and thus the bvr itself will go kaput...

The same is for 2032 or 2052.. Of course 2052 is suppose to be much superior to klj series

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## GORKHALI

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You might want to....I now thinking you're probably a college girl from Delhi. . Or maybe you're not in college anymore.



I never told anyone about my Profession except few here like @Omega007 .  You seems to be an oldie,so you can take a cue out my old posts.

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## SRP

Bahrain Airshow sample. Full HD coming soon. 

By ADA

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## ni8mare

ADA2016Calender | Photos: Rana, Sanjay Simha | Facebook..............for more

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer

N-LCA was supposed to arrestor hook trials in the fall. Delayed, probably due to the ground of the planes in the summer, and natural delay in the program.

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## nik141993

Abingdonboy said:


>


Sir which radar is that in the background, is it rohini radar ?

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


>



Wow gold!!! Tejas has a very long way. No turning back

Tejas External tank needs some serious make over in looks and flight performance. If we could extend internal fuel capacity it could be great

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## Abingdonboy

nik141993 said:


> Sir which radar is that in the background, is it rohini radar ?


That's the one:

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## Loginwithfacebook

A noob question. How many missiles can Tejas carry? 6 or 7? I have not seen any pic where a missile has been loaded underneath the belly.


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## #hydra#

A doubt on LCA mk2,will it be having nose mounted irst?


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## satishkumarcsc

#hydra# said:


> A doubt on LCA mk2,will it be having nose mounted irst?


Nose is too small to accomodate one i suppose


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## #hydra#

satishkumarcsc said:


> Nose is too small to accomodate one i suppose


Something near to canopy, like in su30s & typhoon.


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## satishkumarcsc

#hydra# said:


> Something near to canopy, like in su30s & typhoon.


C'mon it is a light PDF. You want it to be a Rafale? IRST in the nose also means moving around a lot of stuff. It can be carried in a pod.


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## #hydra#

satishkumarcsc said:


> C'mon it is a light PDF. You want it to be a Rafale? IRST in the nose also means moving around a lot of stuff. It can be carried in a pod.


But that will be a good addition, a true 4.5 gen capabilities, moreover it will give one less argument by IAF for not inducting LCA mk2 at the time of induction. 
Clubed with small size It will be good choice LCA carrying a irst as capable as typhoon's pirate & targeting enemy aircraft at beyond visual range without emitting its radar.


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## Lonely Hermit

Loginwithfacebook said:


> A noob question. How many missiles can Tejas carry? 6 or 7? I have not seen any pic where a missile has been loaded underneath the belly.


This might be helpfull

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## DANGER-ZONE

Lonely Hermit said:


> This might be helpfull



Well well ... Let see what we have here, PYTHONE *BVR* MISSILE range *20km*.
6 Short range *BVR*

Who made this shit

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## Lonely Hermit

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Well well ... Let see what we have here, PYTHONE *BVR* MISSILE range *20km*.
> 6 Short range *BVR*
> MR(medium range) *BVR*
> 
> Who made this shit


Why whats wrong Python is classified as BVR ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Lonely Hermit said:


> Why whats wrong Python is classified as BVR ?



A missile with the range above 35 - 40 km is classified as a BVR missile.


----------



## Lonely Hermit

DANGER-ZONE said:


> A missile with the range above 35 - 40 km is classified as a BVR missile.


Israeli Classify Python 5 as a BVR. But you are right a missile excess of 37KM is considered BVR.


----------



## guest11

#hydra# said:


> A doubt on LCA mk2,will it be having nose mounted irst?





satishkumarcsc said:


> Nose is too small to accomodate one i suppose





#hydra# said:


> Something near to canopy, like in su30s & typhoon.





satishkumarcsc said:


> C'mon it is a light PDF. You want it to be a Rafale? IRST in the nose also means moving around a lot of stuff. It can be carried in a pod.





#hydra# said:


> But that will be a good addition, a true 4.5 gen capabilities, moreover it will give one less argument by IAF for not inducting LCA mk2 at the time of induction.
> Clubed with small size It will be good choice LCA carrying a irst as capable as typhoon's pirate & targeting enemy aircraft at beyond visual range without emitting its radar.



IAF did not mention IRST as a requirement in MK2 so there will be no IRST. Look for _Group Captain_ _Suneet Krishna's interview on Tarmak._


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## cerberus

guest11 said:


> IAF did not mention IRST as a requirement in MK2 so there will be no IRST. Look for _Group Captain_ _Suneet Krishna's interview on Tarmak._


IRST Can Also Be Pod Based IAF is Procuring hundreds New Litening G4 And G5 Both Will Feature Air-to-Air Track While Scan Feature 
Rafael’s Next Gen Litening 5 targeting Pod likely to be offered to India for Evaluations.
Rafael Unveiling Litening 5, RecceLite XR | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week
Rafael's Litening pod to gain air-to-air capability

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## cerberus

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Well well ... Let see what we have here, PYTHONE *BVR* MISSILE range *20km*.
> 6 Short range *BVR*
> 
> Who made this shit


Python-5 360 degree view Feature LOAL and LOBL Its True HOBS IIR ECCM with TVC Only Comparable to AIM-9X 

True Range of Python-5 is Classified Same as Derby

Published Range of Derby is Above 63 KM But Maximum range is Still Classified

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## #hydra#

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Well well ... Let see what we have here, PYTHONE *BVR* MISSILE range *20km*.
> 6 Short range *BVR*
> 
> Who made this shit


Python5 is a wvr missile,its Derby is classified as bvr missile.



guest11 said:


> IAF did not mention IRST as a requirement in MK2 so there will be no IRST. Look for _Group Captain_ _Suneet Krishna's interview on Tarmak._


But what's wrong in having a IRST in tejas's airframe? There are lot of irst systems are available in the international market.



cerberus said:


> IRST Can Also Be Pod Based IAF is Procuring hundreds New Litening G4 And G5 Both Will Feature Air-to-Air Track While Scan Feature
> Rafael’s Next Gen Litening 5 targeting Pod likely to be offered to India for Evaluations.
> Rafael Unveiling Litening 5, RecceLite XR | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week
> Rafael's Litening pod to gain air-to-air capability


A IRST mounted on LCA will be way better than pod based one,that hardpoint can be used for some other purposes like hanging jammers or ammunitions.


----------



## Taygibay

#hydra# said:


> A IRST mounted on LCA will be way better than pod based one,that hardpoint can be used for some other purposes like hanging jammers or ammunitions.



The Americans have a solution that fits Tejas :
http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/irst/mfc-irst-pc.pdf
U.S. Navy Approves Production for Super Hornet IRST | Defense Media Network
just copy that in-house, guys!

Good day all, Tay.

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## kaykay

DANGER-ZONE said:


> A missile with the range above 35 - 40 km is classified as a BVR missile.


True range of Python-5 is classified but its access of 32 km......Though yeah its primarily a wvr missile and one of the best of not best already.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> A missile with the range above 35 - 40 km is classified as a BVR missile.


True range of Python-5 is classified but its access of 32 km......Though yeah its primarily a wvr missile and one of the best of not best already.

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## Roybot

Taygibay said:


> The Americans have a solution that fits Tejas :
> http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/irst/mfc-irst-pc.pdf
> U.S. Navy Approves Production for Super Hornet IRST | Defense Media Network
> just copy that in-house, guys!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



So what happens if they ever have to jettison the tank?

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## #hydra#

Taygibay said:


> The Americans have a solution that fits Tejas :
> http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/irst/mfc-irst-pc.pdf
> U.S. Navy Approves Production for Super Hornet IRST | Defense Media Network
> just copy that in-house, guys!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.


American did,that doesn't means that it is the best solution.


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## Taygibay

Roybot said:


> So what happens if they ever have to jettison the tank?



You lose the IRST of course but it is on the centerline tank only, I hope you know why and
as such can be kept on in all but worst case scenarii.



#hydra# said:


> American did,that doesn't means that it is the best solution.



Answering yourself out loud, matey? Where did I say best in my post?
It is a solution that exists ( i.e. tested and approved ) so why couldn't India make it?
And it fits the bill to fit a much needed IRST on the LCA. What's your problem with it?

Good day both, Tay.

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## cerberus

#hydra# said:


> A IRST mounted on LCA will be way better than pod based one,that hardpoint can be used for some other purposes like hanging jammers or ammunitions.


Litening G5 will Be better system we use in MKI


Taygibay said:


> The Americans have a solution that fits Tejas :
> http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/irst/mfc-irst-pc.pdf
> U.S. Navy Approves Production for Super Hornet IRST | Defense Media Network
> just copy that in-house, guys!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.


Litening G5 is Arent Different


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## Taygibay

I was only providing an example, Cerberus. Litening 5 is fine if you want that!
Besides, there seems to be bit of eagerness and oversensitivity in some answers.
Everyone jumped to answer me it seems but missed my last line :

... just copy that in-house, guys!​
 Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar

Where is SP2? Last time these HAL walas said 1 month more. 
Someone kill those damm idiots. 
The number J20 in PLAAF is now equal to the number of Tejas in IAF, ie 1.

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## khanasifm

From Defense News

Cloudy Future for Domestic Indian Aircraft Production

Cloudy Future for Domestic Indian Aircraft Production


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## khanasifm

????


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## Ankit Kumar

No of Tejas in IAF :- 01
No of J20 in PLAAF :- 02 Built and flight testing on. 

Someone get a Santa so that I can wish a private production line for Tejas.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Tejas best wishes


----------



## GreenApple

Is Tejas participating in Singapore Airshow?
It started today, but no news of Tejas. 
If not, why? Missile testing ???


----------



## Dandpatta

^^^ If it's not there, it is not there bhai. Reasons for it not being there are a privilege of the powers that be in India.

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## nik141993

cross posting from another forum thanks kunal biswas 

' Tejas mk1 ' Ferry range is 1700kms + without Fuel tanks ( With fuel tanks 3000kms according to Janes ) and Combat Range is more than 500kms .. , This information is released by Government agency during IOC-2 ...

Press Information Bureau

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## jammersat

i have a question , how related is this aircraft to the chinese mirage series , i mean everything china produces comes with a delta wing like the mirage


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## Abingdonboy

jammersat said:


> i have a question , how related is this aircraft to the chinese mirage series , i mean everything china produces comes with a delta wing like the mirage


No relation at all.

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## Taygibay

Seconding Abingdon! The delta wing is an elegant solution for fighters,
It is part of most wings nowadays save the straight and trapezoidal ones.
Even in the latter the leading edge is delta type.

Some designers prefer the added control surfaces by cultural habituation.
Russia and America don't favour it but the latter counts nice deltas as the Dagger.

In Europe, SAAB and Dassault made it trademarks of their production while still able to do otherwise.

But deltas vary, sometimes they become fluid as in the Concorde's ( thinking a modern Concorde with shape memory wings  )
and some blend into double deltas with nearly no curves looking flat as paper plane.

You know of the adaptations by Israel and you know that Pakistan is the last user of the Mirage III series.
Deltas it seems appeal to all even opposites? Talking about which, if we were to suppose that Jerusalem
gave China the Lavi plans or that the evil Celestials just took them, the wing on that fighter was a Mirage III
derivative, once removed if not twice because the Israeli engineers did not stay idle or repeat and neither
did the Chinese ones.

Meanwhile, at best, the wing of the Tejas could be seen as an adaptation of that of the Mirage 2000 even
though the pronounced updown sweep with inclusion of the intakes make it a totally different beast.

Are then the III's & 2000's wings the same? The answer is no. The construction techniques were invented
between the two and if it looks like that of its older brother, the wing of an M2K is a step to that of the 4000
and then Rafale. Sometimes, a generational gap does not show much but changes things nonetheless.

You could say their great-grand parents were cousins at best. Not much of a familial link!

Good evening, Tay.

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## sasum

Taygibay said:


> Seconding Abingdon! The delta wing is an elegant solution for fighters,
> It is part of most wings nowadays save the straight and trapezoidal ones.
> Even in the latter the leading edge is delta type.
> 
> Some designers prefer the added control surfaces by cultural habituation.
> Russia and America don't favour it but the latter counts nice deltas as the Dagger.
> 
> In Europe, SAAB and Dassault made it trademarks of their production while still able to do otherwise.
> 
> But deltas vary, sometimes they become fluid as in the Concorde's ( thinking a modern Concorde with shape memory wings  )
> and some blend into double deltas with nearly no curves looking flat as paper plane.
> 
> You know of the adaptations by Israel and you know that Pakistan is the last user of the Mirage III series.
> Deltas it seems appeal to all even opposites? Talking about which, if we were to suppose that Jerusalem
> gave China the Lavi plans or that the evil Celestials just took them, the wing on that fighter was a Mirage III
> derivative, once removed if not twice because the Israeli engineers did not stay idle or repeat and neither
> did the Chinese ones.
> 
> Meanwhile, at best, the wing of the Tejas could be seen as an adaptation of that of the Mirage 2000 even
> though the pronounced updown sweep with inclusion of the intakes make it a totally different beast.
> 
> Are then the III's & 2000's wings the same? The answer is no. The construction techniques were invented
> between the two and if it looks like that of its older brother, the wing of an M2K is a step to that of the 4000
> and then Rafale. Sometimes, a generational gap does not show much but changes things nonetheless.
> 
> You could say their great-grand parents were cousins at best. Not much of a familial link!
> 
> Good evening, Tay.


I have 2 queries:
1. What is the exact difference between flying-wing & Delta wing, since both have Delta shaped wings covering the entire fuselage?
2. Since hard points under both the wings have to carry equal weight for balance, how it is maintained once a missile or bomb is fired from under one of the wings?

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## PARIKRAMA

Dated 17th Feb (video)
Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

*Chief Points*

Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)

*The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
*Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*

*The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
*All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
*There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
*Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
*Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
*2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*

*The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
*The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
*This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
So it created lots of empty space in the missile
*The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
*Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
*Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*

*About LCA and both missiles combo*
*The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
*COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
*LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
*This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*


So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
Solid news... lots of points....

@Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever

@Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever
> 
> @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @



What Radar was used for testing the missiles with LCA ?

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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> What Radar was used for testing the missiles with LCA ?


In all probability 2032, Col Joseph did not mention anything on radar


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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> In all probability 2032, Col Joseph did not mention anything on radar



Without the Main Radar, the missile is only half the story.

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## surya kiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> Joseph



It was tested in a 'Ballistic Non guided Mode'. Are you sure that 2032 is onboard? LSP 7 had fired the missile. I was under the impression LSP 8 would have 2032, since that is going to be the production standard.

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## SRP

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever
> 
> @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @



Great news. We are racing towards FOC.


----------



## Abingdonboy

raktaka said:


> Without the Main Radar, the missile is only half the story.


It will be the 2032, there has never been an issue with intergrating this on the LCA- the problems faced earlier were casued by the radome (now addressed with a Quartz crystal radome).



SRP said:


> Great news. We are racing towards FOC.


2016 is the year for sure.

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## PARIKRAMA

surya kiran said:


> It was tested in a 'Ballistic Non guided Mode'. Are you sure that 2032 is onboard? LSP 7 had and ed the missile. I was under the impression LSP 8 would have 2032, since that is going to be the production standard.





surya kiran said:


> It was tested in a 'Ballistic Non guided Mode'. Are you sure that 2032 is onboard? LSP 7 had fired the missile. I was under the impression LSP 8 would have 2032, since that is going to be the production standard.



It's with 2032..
See here DRDO says when LSP 7 test flight started

_During the test 
flight, performance of the aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar 
(MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and 
Instrument Landing System (ILS) was satisfactory, providing a moment 
of pride for all the stake holders which include ADA, HAL, IAF, 
CEMILAC, DG AQA, ADE and NAL among others._
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi/press_release/DRDOPress_release_LSP7.pdf

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## Taygibay

sasum said:


> I have 2 queries:
> 1. What is the exact difference between flying-wing & Delta wing, since both have Delta shaped wings covering the entire fuselage?
> 2. Since hard points under both the wings have to carry equal weight for balance, how it is maintained once a missile or bomb is fired from under one of the wings?



1. Huge actually! A flying wing has no fuselage to speak of for instance.
That impression of yours that delta wings cover the whole fuselage is due to skillful blending of the 2,
in order to reduce drag mostly, but is incorrect. In a flying wing, there is no longitudinal axial shape
as the engines and intakes are inside the wing shape. It reacts very differently esp. at high speeds.
Succinctly, a delta fighter with a central fuselage has less chances of stall occurring & can go faster.

2. Nowadays, that's an FCS function. You must know that the planes are always under FCS control.
That's a derivative of their instability. The position of the plane is impossible to hold without feedback.
They're designed thus to add maneuverability. But a design like that would require the pilot to cons-
tantly adapt the pitch axis and even combat roll with very fine tuning making it nearly impossible to fly.
Unless you add modern flight controls ( electric / electronic ) allowing a program ( FCS ) to "drive".
That system is more than able within reason to handle a dissymmetric load even at launch.
Of course, it is not best to do so and a mission planner will include just the right weapons in ad hoc
numbers so that likelihood of a return run in asymmetric configuration is minimized. But if the pilot
has to drop an uneven numbers of bombs, he will and the aircraft will return safely.
There is one case where a given weapon is so big in relation to its carrier AC that you will chose
to have it on the centerline only.

All in all, at the cost of modern ordnance, throwing a cruise missile away under your left wing to
offset the right wing one that you just launched is not an option really.

Have a great day, Tay.


Emplanture = where the wing and body meet & they meet because they are not one and the same.

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## Armani

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever
> 
> @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @



If they can work around any possible wiring issues, I'm considering the possibility of putting Python-5 on the MiG-29K for the IN, they will be joined by the NLCA Mk-2 carrying the same missile in future. Derby is going to be a bigger problem for Russian birds as I don't think they can be integrated with the radars properly. If they work together with the Russians to sort that out...the iDerby-ER will have a bigger market in India than before.

Although we have to consider the possibility than if Derby-ER is integrated, it might mitigate the benefits of using Astra Mk-1 and that could hit the indigenous industry pretty hard. As of now Astra has no problem with Russian birds as the seeker being used presently is Russian (derived from R-77), the indigenous one is still in development.

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## ni8mare

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....



Very good news one step closer to FOC and thanks for tag

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## Abingdonboy

Armani said:


> If they can work around any possible wiring issues, I'm considering the possibility of putting Python-5 on the MiG-29K for the IN, they will be joined by the NLCA Mk-2 carrying the same missile in future. Derby is going to be a bigger problem for Russian birds as I don't think they can be integrated with the radars properly. If they work together with the Russians to sort that out...the iDerby-ER will have a bigger market in India than before.
> 
> Although we have to consider the possibility than if Derby-ER is integrated, it might mitigate the benefits of using Astra Mk-1 and that could hit the indigenous industry pretty hard. As of now Astra has no problem with Russian birds as the seeker being used presently is Russian (derived from R-77), the indigenous one is still in development.


Increased commonality is exactly what I am hoping to see and this can be further increased with intergration of both/either missile on the IAF's MKIs. However, given the nature of operating carrier fighters- it would be far more benefical to the IN to have a common weapons suite (as much as possible) for their entire fighter fleet as logistics are one of the biggest hurdles in operating carriers far from your shores. 

On the point about the Derby-ER being a competitor to the Astra and potentially hurting that project- I don't think so. Indian products will have a significant cost advantadge over Western products for the foreseeable future so the Derby-ER will be a great addtion to cover the Indian Military's immediate needs and indigenous products will be there for the long term requirements. Addtionally, another factor is interoperability and here again Indian products will have a compeititve advantadge over foreign offerings as they are being built for Indian service and Indian conditons.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever
> 
> @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @




When he showed this missile was tested , 
I think he generally showed it as derby, not specifically to I derby ER.
Can we correlate with other info ? 
Like we bought/ brought I derby ER for testing ..or I derby ER was tested in LCA ?

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> When he showed this missile was tested ,
> I think he generally showed it as derby, not specifically to I derby ER.
> Can we correlate with other info ?
> Like we bought/ brought I derby ER for testing ..or I derby ER was tested in LCA ?



Well with honesty all the video he talked about ER only.. So i am assuming its ER we tested.. I may be wrong also..

Whether its ER or normal Derby, whichever is the case, its a step in +ve direction...

Hopefully with full radar guidance mode, the test will reveal more about the missile..

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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> When he showed this missile was tested ,
> I think he generally showed it as derby, not specifically to I derby ER.
> Can we correlate with other info ?
> Like we bought/ brought I derby ER for testing ..or I derby ER was tested in LCA ?


I'm pretty sure he said the ER was still under development itself so it can't be in Indian hands.

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## Armani

Some of the best images from the official Tejas 2016 calendar -

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## TimeTraveller

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dated 17th Feb (video)
> Rafael’s Colonel Joseph Horowitz explains the capabilities of the Derby and Python systems at the Singapore Airshow 2016 and gives us updates on seeker technology and trials with India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> *Chief Points*
> 
> Colonel Joseph Harowitz is Business Development and Marketing Director of Air Superiority Systems Divison of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems
> The video talks about two Missiles - iDERBY ER and PYTHON 5
> PYTHON 5 - CCM with new Imaging IR Missile
> iDerby ER is a new seeker based LR BVR
> Both these missiles are used together in SPYDER SYSTEM
> These combo missiles are part of different systems in use by India like
> LLQRM (Low Level Quick Reaction Missile)
> SRSAM (Short Range Surface to Air Missile)
> QRSAM (Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile)
> 
> *The Spyder and different system is getting upgraded from IDerby to iDerbyER which increases*
> *Ground launch interception capability in excess of 30 km*
> 
> *The iDerby ER Air to Air version capability is increased to 100 km+*
> *All 3 services of India - IAF, IA and IN are using these missiles and combination*
> *There are plans to integrate these missiles with Su 30 MKI also.*
> *Recently LCA was used to test BOTH these missiles*
> *Last week (Feb 9-14), PYTHON 5 WAS LAUNCHED*
> *2 weeks back (Feb 2-7), iDERBY ER was launched*
> 
> *The dual use option is liked by all 3 services and are integral part of multiple projects*
> About NEW SEEKER in iDERBY ER
> The original seeker was developed 30 years ago
> *The new seeker is a SOFTWARE DEFINED SEEKER*
> *This seeker can be upgraded and updated according to changing threat situation*
> Technological up-gradation helped in miniaturizing seeker length to half its original size
> So it created lots of empty space in the missile
> *The two choices were for using the empty space for warhead size increase and other was engine size increase for increasing the range of the missile*
> *Ultimately engine size and range increase was selected*
> *Derby was MR BVR and now iDERBY ER is a Long Ranged BVR (LR BVR)*
> 
> *About LCA and both missiles combo*
> *The just launching phase for both missiles was VERY GOOD*
> *COMING MONTH FULL FIRING of the range will be done*
> *LCA is a very good and capable fighter*
> *This type of missiles will suit LCA perfectly*
> 
> 
> So We had launched both missiles Python and IDerby ER from LCA and Spyder system uses both...
> Solid news... lots of points....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @nair @scorpionx @Vauban @Taygibay @WAJsal @SpArK @Icarus @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @cerberus @knight11 @Levina @ranjeet @SR-91 @raktaka @Armani @surya kiran @Water Car Engineer @Nilgiri @sathya @GORKHALI @Tshering22 @Brahmaputra Mail @Roybot @Skull and Bones @GURU DUTT @Guynextdoor2 @SRP @mpk1988 @ni8mare @danish_vij @AMCA @Ind4Ever
> 
> @Ankit Kumar @mkb95 @kaykay @kurup @sarjenprabhu @DavidSling @500 @TimeTraveller @


Thanks For Tagging Sir..............................Nice..........

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## Bheemsen

This will be posting in wrong thread but can someone detail out latest news about jaguar upgrade program , how many will be upgraded and what is current progress.


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## knight11



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## Nilgiri

Tejas LSP-3 flies with new Cobham quartz radome......

Tejas LSP-3 flies with new Cobham quartz radome - India

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## W@rwolf




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## Water Car Engineer

Where in the F is SP2?

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec

Both HAL and ADA havent given a proper explanation. It was due a YEAR+ AGO!! This is insane!!

A year+ for one bird, and missing a timeline you made up is unbelievable! Both HAL and ADA should be penalized.

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## MilSpec

Water Car Engineer said:


> Where in the F is SP2?
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
> 
> Both HAL and ADA havent given a proper explanation. It was due a YEAR+ AGO!! This is insane!!
> 
> A year+ for one bird, and missing a timeline you made up is unbelievable! Both HAL and ADA should be penalized.


No Idea, But yes, it's quite frustrating.

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## Water Car Engineer

MilSpec said:


> No Idea, But yes, it's quite frustrating.




This is an utter embarrassment for both of them, especially HAL, while it's trying to suck up every other program out there, or trying to revive programs that's not needed. Seriously, they havent handed nothing over, for a god damn year plus... Seriously, if they keep this up, they're going to **** up the whole Tejas timeline(mk1,mk1a,mk2). I cant believe they havent even given an official statement, all they have said was a new deadline, which they crossed again and again. Wtf?

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## AnnoyingOrange

Tejas ready to spit fire during Iron Fist

Within a month after scripting history in Bahrain with its maiden flying display outside Indian skies, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is ready for the next mission. Sources confirm to OneIndia on Thursday that two Tejas variants are likely to be part of the upcoming Iron Fist, set to begin on March 18.

A total of three Tejas variants will be made ‘hot-ready' for Iron Fist, with one being on the stand-by mode. In an interview to OneIndia, during the IAF's 83rd anniversary celebrations in 2015, a top Aeronautical Development Agency official had said that Tejas would be demonstrating the weapon firing skills during Iron Fist-2016. "Tejas will be demonstrating the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile launching and stick bombing capabilities with tandem bomb carrier in swing role," the official had said. Interestingly, Tejas had recently demonstrated firing the Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile Derby at Jamnagar. It is expected to fire the Close Combat Missile Python-5 soon. Iron Fist is IAF's largest fire power demonstration event with the network-centric warfare capabilities being exhibited to fullest. It is scheduled to begin at the Chandan Field Firing Range in Jaisalmer from March 18. The IAF had demonstrated its day-dusk-night operational capabilities during Iron Fist-2013. Two variants of Tejas had participated during the 2013 show held in the month of February. Over 200 aircraft demonstrated their capabilities spread across five days in 2013. The President, the PM and a host of other top officials are expected to witness Iron Fist-2016.

OneIndia Special: Tejas ready to spit fire during Iron Fist - Oneindia

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## MilSpec

Water Car Engineer said:


> This is an utter embarrassment for both of them, especially HAL, while it's trying to suck up every other program out there, or trying to revive programs that's not needed. Seriously, they havent handed nothing over, for a god damn year plus... Seriously, if they keep this up, they're going to **** up the whole Tejas timeline(mk1,mk1a,mk2). I cant believe they havent even given an official statement, all they have said was a new deadline, which they crossed again and again. Wtf?


If I had to speculate, I would say that, IAF would prefer a to get SP2 to modified 1P spec and thats why they are holding off.

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## MilSpec

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy , Any news on R77 qualifications for LCA?

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## Armani



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## Water Car Engineer

MilSpec said:


> If I had to speculate, I would say that, IAF would prefer a to get SP2 to modified 1P spec and thats why they are holding off.



It cant be, because HAL themselves keep updating on a deadline, which they missed again.


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## PARIKRAMA

@MilSpec 

Its theoretically possible to integrate R77 but there is a cost part in terms of external needs.. That is in spite of successful integration of R73E with Tejas.

Let me explain it.. A little long post.. (Pls dont mind)

What i understand initially in 2007 when LCA first fired R73 E, it was a un-guided autonomous mode launch





Then later in 2010, a more successful firing did happen for R73E




TEJAS SUCCESSFULLY LAUNCHES CLOSE COMBAT MISSILE


What actually Tejas did was best described by Air Marshal MSD Wollen who was also HAL chairman from 1984 to 1988

_*The entire avionics and weapon systems are con-figured around three 1553 B data bus. Mission oriented computation/flight management is through a 32 hit computer. Information: from sensors (e.g. multi-mode radar, IRST, radar/laser/missile launch-warning receivers); from the inertial navigation System with embedded GPS; from targeting pod (FLIR, laser designator) are presented to the pilot on a head-up-display and head-down-displays. A helmet mounted target designator steers radar and missile seekers for early target acquisition (during a 'close-in' air-to-air engagement with a Vympel R-73 missile, currently the best dog-fight' missile in the world). Laser guided bombs and TV guided missiles, require a pilot to initially 'zero-in' the laser designator or missile-mounted TV camera, on the ground target. Considerable engineering effort and expertise is necessary to achieve avionics-weapon integration and to prove the integration by live trials. *_

Featured Articles | Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft

++
From this what i understand is

The initial launch in 2007 was not with the radar MMR on board and target was to fire after fitting it
In 2010 tests, MMR was on board but integration was needing 3rd party interface as Radar is Israeli 2032 and missile is Russian R73E
Now via 1533B data bus, this integration was seamlessly done as confirmed by MSD Wollen and allowed R73E to be fired.
Bear in mind R73E is a CCM or at best WVR missile.
But R77 is a BVR missile which will require a mid course guidance via a datalink
In this case of R77, we do require to use a datalink pod like the ones used in Russian jets which uses a big radar pod on centerline for handling all missiles for their jets (old and new)
See here in these 2 pictures





The one on the Su-25TM is the 3-CM waveband Kopyo-25 radar pod for use with the R-77 and other missiles.





A closer picture of the pod in centerline



This kind of POD structure does not work well for Tejas which is already looking to reduce such extra packages and use every available hardpoints for either fuel or weapons. Consuming a centerline POD for just R77 is way too much wastage of space and utility.
The other way is to use the original source code interfacing via the 1533B Bus and let the missile being guided by Israeli radar.. This is where there are issues
First its difficult to get codes from Russian side not just bcz of only monetary reason.
Secondly, Russia believes such codes would then lead to issues, as such codes can help western (read american via Israel) to devise counter measures for their missiles.
In a manner these codes and measures are their crown jewels/ prized possession and thus they dont want to part it with anybody but are comfortable via usage of a external pod method.

Then what exactly happened in R73E case?

The R73E firing is well explained by MSD Wollen above of what was use and how.
A R73 bcz of being a CCM it uses Lock On Before Launch (LOBL) need via the Helmet mounted Designator and basic 1533B Bus for radar cues when its still in Pylon as hinted by MSD Wollen. 
The Same R73 in Lock On After Launch Mode or LOAL mode, its generally just launched in the direction of the bogey and its IR seeker takes over post launch and directs the missile towards the target. 
This LOAL mode was what has been tested in weapons trial in 2010 and subsequently in exercises



 Thats why it makes sense to use Israeli radar 2032 and later 2052 with Derby/i Derby ER for BVR and Python 5 for CCM
The Astra missile with our own Ku Bank seeker will be able to do the same as iDerby-ER due to everything including codes with us which we can then utilize via 1533B bus to successfully mate it with the 2032/2052
The present Astra would face a similar need of a POD based guidance due to it having a Russian seeker as 1533B interface wont allow mid course guidance.

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ

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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

Met these 2 unsung heroes who were tasked to paint the drop tanks of LCA at HAL facility recently.

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## Stag112

PARIKRAMA said:


> @MilSpec
> 
> Its theoretically possible to integrate R77 but there is a cost part in terms of external needs.. That is in spite of successful integration of R73E with Tejas.
> 
> Let me explain it.. A little long post.. (Pls dont mind)
> 
> What i understand initially in 2007 when LCA first fired R73 E, it was a un-guided autonomous mode launch
> View attachment 295557
> 
> 
> Then later in 2010, a more successful firing did happen for R73E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEJAS SUCCESSFULLY LAUNCHES CLOSE COMBAT MISSILE
> 
> 
> What actually Tejas did was best described by Air Marshal MSD Wollen who was also HAL chairman from 1984 to 1988
> 
> _*The entire avionics and weapon systems are con-figured around three 1553 B data bus. Mission oriented computation/flight management is through a 32 hit computer. Information: from sensors (e.g. multi-mode radar, IRST, radar/laser/missile launch-warning receivers); from the inertial navigation System with embedded GPS; from targeting pod (FLIR, laser designator) are presented to the pilot on a head-up-display and head-down-displays. A helmet mounted target designator steers radar and missile seekers for early target acquisition (during a 'close-in' air-to-air engagement with a Vympel R-73 missile, currently the best dog-fight' missile in the world). Laser guided bombs and TV guided missiles, require a pilot to initially 'zero-in' the laser designator or missile-mounted TV camera, on the ground target. Considerable engineering effort and expertise is necessary to achieve avionics-weapon integration and to prove the integration by live trials. *_
> 
> Featured Articles | Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> ++
> From this what i understand is
> 
> The initial launch in 2007 was not with the radar MMR on board and target was to fire after fitting it
> In 2010 tests, MMR was on board but integration was needing 3rd party interface as Radar is Israeli 2032 and missile is Russian R73E
> Now via 1533B data bus, this integration was seamlessly done as confirmed by MSD Wollen and allowed R73E to be fired.
> Bear in mind R73E is a CCM or at best WVR missile.
> But R77 is a BVR missile which will require a mid course guidance via a datalink
> In this case of R77, we do require to use a datalink pod like the ones used in Russian jets which uses a big radar pod on centerline for handling all missiles for their jets (old and new)
> See here in these 2 pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one on the Su-25TM is the 3-CM waveband Kopyo-25 radar pod for use with the R-77 and other missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A closer picture of the pod in centerline
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of POD structure does not work well for Tejas which is already looking to reduce such extra packages and use every available hardpoints for either fuel or weapons. Consuming a centerline POD for just R77 is way too much wastage of space and utility.
> The other way is to use the original source code interfacing via the 1533B Bus and let the missile being guided by Israeli radar.. This is where there are issues
> First its difficult to get codes from Russian side not just bcz of only monetary reason.
> Secondly, Russia believes such codes would then lead to issues, as such codes can help western (read american via Israel) to devise counter measures for their missiles.
> In a manner these codes and measures are their crown jewels/ prized possession and thus they dont want to part it with anybody but are comfortable via usage of a external pod method.
> 
> Then what exactly happened in R73E case?
> 
> The R73E firing is well explained by MSD Wollen above of what was use and how.
> A R73 bcz of being a CCM it uses Lock On Before Launch (LOBL) need via the Helmet mounted Designator and basic 1533B Bus for radar cues when its still in Pylon as hinted by MSD Wollen.
> The Same R73 in Lock On After Launch Mode or LOAL mode, its generally just launched in the direction of the bogey and its IR seeker takes over post launch and directs the missile towards the target.
> This LOAL mode was what has been tested in weapons trial in 2010 and subsequently in exercises
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why it makes sense to use Israeli radar 2032 and later 2052 with Derby/i Derby ER for BVR and Python 5 for CCM
> The Astra missile with our own Ku Bank seeker will be able to do the same as iDerby-ER due to everything including codes with us which we can then utilize via 1533B bus to successfully mate it with the 2032/2052
> The present Astra would face a similar need of a POD based guidance due to it having a Russian seeker as 1533B interface wont allow mid course guidance.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ



The real question is - what are you doing on PDF? Lending credence to a propaganda tool?

#indiabehindisis

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## sathya

SP2 , SP3, SP4 with cobham nose cone and refuel probe

Will fly in Iron Fist march 18 ,demonstrating FOC capabilities.

Fulfilling 4 samples obligation in financial year 2015-16 .



.
.
.
.
.
*in my dreams *

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## PakEye

sudhir007 said:


> Met these 2 unsung heroes who were tasked to paint the drop tanks of LCA at HAL facility recently.


Good paint job.


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## Stag112

pakeye said:


> Good paint job.



Thank you. We always appreciate expert opinion.

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## Trisonics

Stag112 said:


> Thank you. We always appreciate expert opinion.


 that was very funny!!!!

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## surya kiran

Stag112 said:


> Thank you. We always appreciate expert opinion.


You naughty boy

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## Bheemsen

This might be posting on wrong thread but dose anyone have info about jaguar Darin 3 upgrade status.


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## DesiGuy1403

pakeye said:


> expert opinion



Please STOP applying it to your brain!

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## rockstarIN

*ndia's Tejas Aircraft Integrated With Russian, US missiles*
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Thursday, March 10, 2016 @ 01:37 PM
Views : 67 A- A A+




India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas

India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas will be integrated with the US- and Russian-origin missiles and is expected to fly this month during the Indian Air Force show.

The jet is currently undergoing final operational clearance and will soon be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The IAF has confirmed that the Tejas jet will be flying at the IAF exercise, ‘Iron Fist-2016’, in Rajasthan on March 18, Tribune India reported.
*

The Tejas will fire the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile, the R-73 of Russian origin, and the precision laser-guided bomb Griffin missile, produced by US company Raytheon.*

Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa, Vice-Chief of the IAF, was quoted as saying today that the LCA shall do both tasks in a single flight.

The exercise will display the ‘capability to punish’, said the IAF Vice-Chief.

LCA also features new quartz radome radar from Cobham, UK. The radar was flight-tested in the last week of February and is expected to increase the radar range to 80 km and beyond.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence has decided to locally produce 106 upgraded Light Combat Aircraft

When did we purchase this stuff??

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## W@rwolf

rockstarIN said:


> precision laser-guided bomb Griffin missile, produced by US company Raytheon.



Griffin LGB from IAI

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## PARIKRAMA

rockstarIN said:


> *ndia's Tejas Aircraft Integrated With Russian, US missiles*
> Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Thursday, March 10, 2016 @ 01:37 PM
> Views : 67 A- A A+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas
> 
> India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas will be integrated with the US- and Russian-origin missiles and is expected to fly this month during the Indian Air Force show.
> 
> The jet is currently undergoing final operational clearance and will soon be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The IAF has confirmed that the Tejas jet will be flying at the IAF exercise, ‘Iron Fist-2016’, in Rajasthan on March 18, Tribune India reported.
> *
> 
> The Tejas will fire the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile, the R-73 of Russian origin, and the precision laser-guided bomb Griffin missile, produced by US company Raytheon.*
> 
> Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa, Vice-Chief of the IAF, was quoted as saying today that the LCA shall do both tasks in a single flight.
> 
> The exercise will display the ‘capability to punish’, said the IAF Vice-Chief.
> 
> LCA also features new quartz radome radar from Cobham, UK. The radar was flight-tested in the last week of February and is expected to increase the radar range to 80 km and beyond.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence has decided to locally produce 106 upgraded Light Combat Aircraft
> 
> When did we purchase this stuff??
> View attachment 297734



Bro in another thread i replied in the evening.. See this

INDIAN Tejas to fire US, Russian missiles at IAF show







Its not a good piece of journalism.. should have checked LGB is different from the same one with a more of ship based /air based missile system

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## SRP

*HAL begins integration of mid-air-refueling probe on Tejas*






*Bengaluru, March 12: *Engineers and technicians at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) LCA-Tejas Division have begun the extremely complex integration of the aerial refueling probe on to the Tejas fighter.

During a visit to the HAL facilities, Mathrubhumi witnessed the fitment tests on the Limited Series Production-8 (LSP-8) variant of Tejas. The air-to-air probe, supplied by UK-based Cobham, is being fixed in front of the canopy and on the right side of the aircraft.

Similar to Sukhoi, Tejas too will have a fixed aerial refueling probe.

“*The modification of LSP-8 is under progress. The structural modification for the attachment and load is under way. We also have to undertake fuel system and software modifications*,” says V Sridharan, General Manager, LCA

The pressure refueling process on LSP-8 and SP-1 have already been demonstrated. Last year, the naval LCA (NP2) underwent ‘hot refueling’ at HAL facilities. Both were mandatory tests ahead of fixing the fuel probe.

“Once the probe is fixed and structural integration is done, then we will have the ground tests, which will be followed by flight trials. The efficiency of the Flight Control System will also be tested,” says Sridharan.

According to him, HAL has the expertise in fixing mid-air fuel probes on Jaguar trainers. The work share for this critical integration work is being split between Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), Tata Advanced System Laboratories (TASL) and LCA Tejas Division.






“TASL is been entrusted with tool design and tooling supply, ADA is the programme agency responsible for production, structural design and software,ARDC has been entrusted with structures and systems, while we (LCA-Teas Division) are the final integration agency,” says Sridharan.

*Flight trials to be completed next year*

HAL hopes to complete the modifications on Tejas LSP-8 by May this year so that the flight trials could begin in June. As per the current schedule, by March 2017, HAL needs to complete the testing and flight trials ahead of certification.

for more........

HAL begins integration of mid-air-refueling probe on Tejas - India

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## Abingdonboy

SRP said:


> Similar to Sukhoi, Tejas too will have a fixed aerial refueling probe.


He must mean Mirage, the SUs have retractable IFR probes.



SRP said:


> *Flight trials to be completed next year*
> 
> HAL hopes to complete the modifications on Tejas LSP-8 by May this year so that the flight trials could begin in June. As per the current schedule, by March 2017, HAL needs to complete the testing and flight trials ahead of certification.


What?? So FOC has been pushed back another 12 months?? 


@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @sathya @sudhir007

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> He must mean Mirage, the SUs have retractable IFR probes.
> 
> 
> What?? So FOC has been pushed back another 12 months??
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @sathya @sudhir007




From the same link
HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju, who is keeping a close watch on the production schedules, said that the complex integration work is nearing completion. “Once the integration work is done, we will have the engagement checks to ensure that the flow is right. This will be followed by dry and wet runs again to check the flow rate of fuel. Finally, we will take the fighter for the mid-air-refueling trials,” says Raju.

HAL officials say that the carriage trials in June will be immediately followed by dry contact tests. Once Tejas is fitted with the mid-air-refueling probe, it multiplies the aircraft range and radius of action.

Mid-air-refueling probe is one of the key parameters HAL-ADA combine need to fulfil, ahead of the Final Operational Clearance. HAL says from the first Tejas MKI-A aircraft onwards (21st fighter in the series production plans), all platforms will be fitted with the air-to-air refueling probe.

“However, if the IAF wishes, then it could enter into a separate contract with HAL, to retro-fit even the first 20 series production variants with these probes,” says an official. 
In a related development, Tejas LSP3 and LSP7 have reached Jamnagar ahead of IAF’s Fire Power Demonstration -- Iron Fist-2016.


----------



## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> From the same link
> HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju, who is keeping a close watch on the production schedules, said that the complex integration work is nearing completion. “Once the integration work is done, we will have the engagement checks to ensure that the flow is right. This will be followed by dry and wet runs again to check the flow rate of fuel. Finally, we will take the fighter for the mid-air-refueling trials,” says Raju.
> 
> HAL officials say that the carriage trials in June will be immediately followed by dry contact tests. Once Tejas is fitted with the mid-air-refueling probe, it multiplies the aircraft range and radius of action.
> 
> Mid-air-refueling probe is one of the key parameters HAL-ADA combine need to fulfil, ahead of the Final Operational Clearance. HAL says from the first Tejas MKI-A aircraft onwards (21st fighter in the series production plans), all platforms will be fitted with the air-to-air refueling probe.
> 
> “However, if the IAF wishes, then it could enter into a separate contract with HAL, to retro-fit even the first 20 series production variants with these probes,” says an official.
> In a related development, Tejas LSP3 and LSP7 have reached Jamnagar ahead of IAF’s Fire Power Demonstration -- Iron Fist-2016.


The first 20 SP (MK.1) will not have the probe and thus will be not be FOC compliant, the MK.1As will have IFR probes and AESA radars.

It still means that FOC has been pushed back a year- it was meant to be acheived by March 2016, and now they are saying March 2017.

And still no sign of SP2? When are these IOC jets (SP2-20) going to start getting inducted? HAL's current production rate is 0.5 LCAs a year it seems.

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## sathya

We can club the aerial refuelling with gun firing later and get FOC done ASAP ...

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 

As i said execution is the key in multiple threads..
i shared with you a simple way of making LCA and its variants a huge success story for the country with continuous production and making it 1/3rd strength of our whole AF structure.

The key here is the deliverable from HAL and its whole team of other dependent folks.. In case they miss the trick it opens up a pandora's box of opportunities for other people

Now we all know why Saab and LM are like honey bees buzzing over our lucrative light category market.. Its bcz somewhere even given the opportunities and with certain limitations at times also, HAL and team are unable to rise upto the occasion and grab the chance which is truly theirs.

Knowing MOD and IAF, they will push HAL but if they fail to achieve things and delay the whole deliverables, i dont see much beyond 2024 timeline.. and thats when another light category could come in easy and take those 6 years productivity of 24 jets a year or 144 jets till 2030 .. since we already have almost 7 years to 2024, its enough that based on milestone achievement a plan may be made to accommodate another light fighter category aircraft.

Even though i have been with you defending LCA and resisting the 16s and Gripen or even LSA, if HAL themselves screw it up, we all can do nothing.. its like they themselves inviting such other players to take their share..

Hope HAL folks realise it...

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> As i said execution is the key in multiple threads..
> i shared with you a simple way of making LCA and its variants a huge success story for the country with continuous production and making it 1/3rd strength of our whole AF structure.
> 
> The key here is the deliverable from HAL and its whole team of other dependent folks.. In case they miss the trick it opens up a pandora's box of opportunities for other people
> 
> Now we all know why Saab and LM are like honey bees buzzing over our lucrative light category market.. Its bcz somewhere even given the opportunities and with certain limitations at times also, HAL and team are unable to rise upto the occasion and grab the chance which is truly theirs.
> 
> Knowing MOD and IAF, they will push HAL but if they fail to achieve things and delay the whole deliverables, i dont see much beyond 2024 timeline.. and thats when another light category could come in easy and take those 6 years productivity of 24 jets a year or 144 jets till 2030 .. since we already have almost 7 years to 2024, its enough that based on milestone achievement a plan may be made to accommodate another light fighter category aircraft.
> 
> Even though i have been with you defending LCA and resisting the 16s and Gripen or even LSA, if HAL themselves screw it up, we all can do nothing.. its like they themselves inviting such other players to take their share..
> 
> Hope HAL folks realise it...



Can't we just liquidate all production aspects of HAL and give them to a private player like L&T, TATA etc. who can then expand as needed, inject funds as needed and focus on outputting products efficiently and promptly.

HAL/ADA etc. should be just the RnD phase till even that can be absorbed by a proper private conglomerate after which the only need is for one govt authority to enforce standards and audit/analyse/study requirements and their evolution etc.

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## $@rJen

* HAL Begins Integration of Mid-Air-Refueling Probe on Tejas *
*Sunday, March 13, 2016 by Indiandefense News*






*During a visit to the HAL facilities, Mathrubhumi witnessed the fitment tests on the Limited Series Production-8 variant of Tejas*

_*by Dr Anantha Krishnan M*_

*BANGALORE*: Engineers and technicians at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) LCA-Tejas Division have begun the extremely complex integration of the aerial refueling probe on to the Tejas fighter.

During a visit to the HAL facilities, Mathrubhumi witnessed the fitment tests on the Limited Series Production-8 (LSP-8) variant of Tejas. The air-to-air probe, supplied by UK-based Cobham, is being fixed in front of the canopy and on the right side of the aircraft.

Similar to Mirage, Tejas too will have a fixed aerial refueling probe. “The modification of LSP-8 is under progress. The structural modification for the attachment and load is under way. We also have to undertake fuel system and software modifications,” says V Sridharan, General Manager, LCA.

The pressure refueling process on LSP-8 and SP-1 have already been demonstrated. Last year, the naval LCA (NP2) underwent ‘hot refueling’ at HAL facilities. Both were mandatory tests ahead of fixing the fuel probe.

“Once the probe is fixed and structural integration is done, then we will have the ground tests, which will be followed by flight trials. The efficiency of the Flight Control System will also be tested,” says Sridharan.

According to him, HAL has the expertise in fixing mid-air fuel probes on Jaguar trainers. The work share for this critical integration work is being split between Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), Tata Advanced System Laboratories (TASL) and LCA Tejas Division.

“TASL is been entrusted with tool design and tooling supply, ADA is the programme agency responsible for production, structural design and software, ARDC has been entrusted with structures and systems, while we (LCA-Teas Division) are the final integration agency,” says Sridharan.

*Flight Trials to be Completed Next Year*

HAL hopes to complete the modifications on Tejas LSP-8 by May this year so that the flight trials could begin in June. As per the current schedule, by March 2017, HAL needs to complete the testing and flight trials ahead of certification.

HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju, who is keeping a close watch on the production schedules, said that the complex integration work is nearing completion. “Once the integration work is done, we will have the engagement checks to ensure that the flow is right. This will be followed by dry and wet runs again to check the flow rate of fuel. Finally, we will take the fighter for the mid-air-refueling trials,” says Raju.

HAL officials say that the carriage trials in June will be immediately followed by dry contact tests. Once Tejas is fitted with the mid-air-refueling probe, it multiplies the aircraft range and radius of action.

Mid-air-refueling probe is one of the key parameters HAL-ADA combine need to fulfil, ahead of the Final Operational Clearance. HAL says from the first Tejas MKI-A aircraft onwards (21st fighter in the series production plans), all platforms will be fitted with the air-to-air refueling probe.

“However, if the IAF wishes, then it could enter into a separate contract with HAL, to retro-fit even the first 20 series production variants with these probes,” says an official. 

In a related development, Tejas LSP3 and LSP7 have reached Jamnagar ahead of IAF’s Fire Power Demonstration -- Iron Fist-2016.

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## Ankit Kumar

FOC for me should not be a big issue. Everything should undergo proper tests and integration. Because this will lay foundation to the MK1A. 

What is irritating is absence of SP2. 

Are these HAL walas working only 2 days a week or what ? 

More than 45 days has lapsed following their own words in January. 

Meanwhile the 3rd pre production J20 is almost integrated and will start ground tests in coming months.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> What?? So FOC has been pushed back another 12 months??



FOC will be achieved with Derby and the GSh 23 gun getting operationalised 

The IFR can come later

The most important point is the confirmation of
What happened to the Radar range after the new Radome

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## halupridol

let me do a told u so,,@PARIKRAMA style 


halupridol said:


> bro,,,according to my source FOC wont be achieved this year





halupridol said:


> No. next march 17
> also till now only 20 ioc r confirmed,,thr is no confirmation on 100 mk1a





halupridol said:


> i wud like to be proven wrong,,,but till now all the info frm the source has been correct
> 
> no,,as of now not certain.
> Iaf wants FOC+ models,,,n dpsu's have gladly claimed tht they will come up wid it,,,but IAF has made it clear tht further orders will be taken into consideration only if they r satisfied wid FOC tejas.


but of course,,dpsu bhakts will have an explanation,,,its not fault of dpsu,,foc dont matter,,,it must be phoren maal luving AF,,babus,martians

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> Can't we just liquidate all production aspects of HAL and give them to a private player like L&T, TATA etc. who can then expand as needed, inject funds as needed and focus on outputting products efficiently and promptly.
> 
> HAL/ADA etc. should be just the RnD phase till even that can be absorbed by a proper private conglomerate after which the only need is for one govt authority to enforce standards and audit/analyse/study requirements and their evolution etc.



A full privatization will be a suicide mission for any government in the center as the PSU, Unions and other political parties will term the move as a way of selling out public services to few businessmen.

What you have suggested btw is what i have suggested as a partial measure.. The DPSU's needs to incorporate the changing times, the scrutiny of accountability and significant improvement in project management.

I understand that they at times are having budget constraints, manpower constraints and limitations imposed by the fact that for everything they need a dotted line MOD approval....

This can be changed if the DPSU are treated like what other publicly listed entities in BSE/NSE are treated with. A 25% share of HAL can be divested to public via an IPO and later another 24% to government entities like LIC, Banks and institutes which like long term 10 year plus investing.. Essentially, by making the Indian general public Hal's shareholder, we will bring a dynamic change in their whole way the company operates. A key change will be new people in board and management as directors and independent directors.. Also the expertise would be much better utilized for far better results which HAL is capable of delivering after all they are India's premier institute.

The funds raised this way serves the purpose of ambitious 10 year 15 year plans of HAL.


ADA otoh needs to concentrate on lead integrator role and let assemblies, sub assemblies and component manufacturing done in pvt sector and HAL.

I see in coming times all DPSU going through this dynamic change.



halupridol said:


> let me do a told u so,,@PARIKRAMA style
> 
> 
> 
> but of course,,dpsu bhakts will have an explanation,,,its not fault of dpsu,,foc dont matter,,,it must be phoren maal luving AF,,babus,martians



I have to admit honestly, your prediction on DRDO is pretty spot on... You are our inhouse DRDO expert.. Something which @Robinhood Pandey clearly said in his just phor phun thread...

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## halupridol

PARIKRAMA said:


> I have to admit honestly, your prediction on DRDO is pretty spot on... You are our inhouse DRDO expert.. Something which @Robinhood Pandey clearly said in his just phor phun thread...


lol bro,,,inti khichai mat karo,,pandey jee akele kafi hai

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## halupridol

this video was already posted by @Water Car Engineer
after watching it,,,i am not sure if it is logical to expect dpsu's(hal) to deliver lca
well,according to d man,,lca is a technological marvel n already a success
says,"take the project,resource will come."
n later justify delays on lack of infra/resources(best dpsu trick)

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## Abingdonboy

halupridol said:


> also till now only 20 ioc r confirmed,,thr is no confirmation on 100 mk1a


@halupridol this part has been debunked though bro- the DM has confirmed there are 120 on order.

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## halupridol

Abingdonboy said:


> @halupridol this part has been debunked though bro- the DM has confirmed there are 120 on order.


apparently,our DM says alot of things,,,,its difficult to figure out the truth from all that _talk_.
if money is alotted for it then ok,otherwise still not sure

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## 4GTejasBVR

rockstarIN said:


> When did we purchase this stuff??
> View attachment 297734


 What the hec is that ? Looks cool... Laser guided bombs ? Or its just singular Bomb ?


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## rockstarIN

4GTejasBVR said:


> What the hec is that ? Looks cool... Laser guided bombs ? Or its just singular Bomb ?



A2G missiles, but this is not what mentioned in the article.


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## 4GTejasBVR

rockstarIN said:


> A2G missiles, but this is not what mentioned in the article.


Is it multiple bombs or just only one?


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## rockstarIN

4GTejasBVR said:


> Is it multiple bombs or just only one?


Multiple A2G missiles of US origin, but not purchased/integrated in LCA


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## zebra7

4GTejasBVR said:


> What the hec is that ? Looks cool... Laser guided bombs ? Or its just singular Bomb ?



ITS a Pylon solution for combat Hellicopter by the COBHAM, with Brimstone A2G Missile, and Rockets.


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## Water Car Engineer

*How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?* 

The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. *We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry.* If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...varna-raju/articleshow/51834356.cms?prtpage=1

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## Armani



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## sathya

Armani said:


>




Landing gear bump in under carriage is the temporary fix ?

*Missiles in the last wing pylon appears diverging* , anyone ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Main article

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...varna-raju/articleshow/51834356.cms?prtpage=1

My topic of interest

*How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India? *
The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings.* If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year.* So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.

+++
Thats the confirmation of what i have always said..
16 jets a year and then to 24 jets a year..

Now you all know how we can easily make 300 LCA.. just the execution part needed from all stake holders including the ecosystem to step and meet the needs..


@Abingdonboy

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## sankranti

PARIKRAMA said:


> Main article
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...varna-raju/articleshow/51834356.cms?prtpage=1
> 
> My topic of interest
> 
> *How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India? *
> The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings.* If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year.* So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.
> 
> +++
> Thats the confirmation of what i have always said..
> 16 jets a year and then to 24 jets a year..
> 
> Now you all know how we can easily make 300 LCA.. just the execution part needed from all stake holders including the ecosystem to step and meet the needs..
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy



As someone who works in the Aerospace Industry let me tell you with some confidence that no vendor in India wants to work with HAL. Those who do, do it because they have no choice and HAL sucks them dry.

There is no concept of "vendor development", the concept is "vendor exploitation". So good luck with your dreams of outsourcing the work for the same price. Its not going to happen any-time soon.

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## Abingdonboy

sankranti said:


> As someone who works in the Aerospace Industry let me tell you with some confidence that no vendor in India wants to work with HAL. Those who do, do it because they have no choice and HAL sucks them dry.
> 
> There is no concept of "vendor development", the concept is "vendor exploitation". So good luck with your dreams of outsourcing the work for the same price. Its not going to happen any-time soon.


That is changing. HAL is very set in its way but it is being forced to change it won't happen overnight but it WILL happen.


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## sankranti

Abingdonboy said:


> That is changing. HAL is very set in its way but it is being forced to change it won't happen overnight but it WILL happen.



Of course. Nothing in this world is static, everything will change with time. That is the law of nature. 

Just not soon enough to make a difference to LCA.


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## Water Car Engineer

TATA built Composite Structures for LCA

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## zebra7

This is from Saurav Jha twitter post

Certified Gipsy ‏@CertifiedGipsy 1h1 hour ago
@SJha1618 Saurav, what is the latest status of GTRE Kaveri Engine? Do we have a working Engine? What are its latest features?

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 38m38 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy Tested to 72 + KN. Flew for more than 50 hours on the FTB in Russia. Program continues. Rechristening soon.

Certified Gipsy ‏@CertifiedGipsy 30m30 minutes ago
@SJha1618 Doesn't it mean they have a working engine at 80kN?

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 28m28 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy What it means is that they have a prototype engine that has achieved 90 % of its designed wet thrust capability.

Certified Gipsy ‏@CertifiedGipsy 25m25 minutes ago
@SJha1618 Brilliant. Also, is it possible for them to to fit two of these Engines in existing MiG 29 and see how it performs?

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 24m24 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy Only one engine will be fit first. Standard practice. 20 unit run is to get to a stage where you can talk about MTBO etc.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 25m25 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy 90% of the required thrust with existing materials. The 20 new ones will see product improvements leading closer to 80 KN.

Certified Gipsy ‏@CertifiedGipsy 23m23 minutes ago
@SJha1618 But wiki says that the full after burner thrust is 81kN and planned to be upgraded to >95kN. Don't know what their source is.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 20m20 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy 90 KN is the final design goal. 95 KN will reduce engine life. 81 KN not achieved yet for legacy prototypes.

Certified Gipsy ‏@CertifiedGipsy 19m19 minutes ago
@SJha1618 90kN would be a great achievement. We can power both single engine jets and twin engine variants with indigenous engines.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 17m17 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
@CertifiedGipsy That is the idea.

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## zebra7

India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, which was several years in the making, *has now caught the attention of foreign buyers with Sri Lanka and Egypt evincing interest in the indigenously built fighter jet.* Sri Lanka had recently rejected Pakistan's JF-17 aircraft built with Chinese help, while Egypt had last year signed a contract for 24 French-made Rafale fighter jets. The two countries are interested in the current version of the Tejas and not the upgraded one which will be rolled out later. However, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the manufacturer of Tejas, is focusing on delivering the aircraft to the IAF first. "While there is an interest which has been shown (by other countries), let us get the product first to our own customer. The confidence that will come to others when our own Air Force flies it will be immense. So at first, we should at least meet the initial requirement of the IAF," HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju told PTI. Refusing to share information on which is the countries that have evinced interest in Tejas, he expressed confidence in his marketing team and said they are equipped to take forward the talks. However, Defence sources said that the two countries which have evinced interest in Tejas were Sri Lanka and Egypt. He said the "current version is more than enough" for smaller nations. Two things that go in favour of the Tejas are its lower cost and flying ability. "We have proved its flying ability and the aircraft, for that class, is a terrific one. We did take some time but we need to remember that DRDO and us did everything from the scratch," Raju said. Raju said that the upgraded version of Tejas, with Active Electrically Scanned Array Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare Suite, mid-air refuelling capacity and beyond the vision range missiles, will cost between Rs 275 crore and Rs 300 crore. Sources said enquiries by foreign countries came during the Bahrain air show in January, the first time that Tejas flew outside the country. The decision to send Tejas abroad was of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who has put his weight behind the aircraft. LCA Tejas performed 8-G (gravity) pull, vertical loop, slow fly-past and barrel roll at the air show, which the Indian officials described as "historic". Interestingly, soon after the announcement of Tejas' participation in Bahrain, Pakistan had withdrawn its JF-17 aircraft from the show despite having paid the initial installment which ran into a few millions US dollars. Tejas is perhaps the world's smallest lightweight, multi-role single engine tactical fighter aircraft. JF-17 has been developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. However, experts feel that the aircraft has been assembled in Pakistan from readymade Chinese kits. HAL is likely to hand over the fourth Tejas aircraft to the Air Force by June end. The four aircraft will make up the first squadron of IAF which will be used for training and familarisation. Rather than wait for LAC Mk II, IAF had decided to go for an upgraded version of the existing Tejas with over 40 modifications. IAF plans to acquire 120 Tejas aircraft, with 100 of these having major modifications. As per the production plan, six aircraft will be made this year and HAL will subsequently scale it up to eight and 16 aircraft per year. The LCA programme was initiated in 1983 to replace the ageing MiG-21s planes in IAF's combat fleet but has missed several deadlines due to various reasons. -

See more at: http://www.dailymirror.lk/108324/India-s-fighter-jet-Tejas-catches-SL-attention#sthash.KLHvnHI5.dpuf

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## zebra7

So the two countries showing interest in LCA is Egypt and Srilanka

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @dadeechi

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## dadeechi

zebra7 said:


> So the two countries showing interest in LCA is Egypt and Srilanka
> 
> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @dadeechi



Excellent news. I wonder if India would finance the deals?


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## Abingdonboy

zebra7 said:


> So the two countries showing interest in LCA is Egypt and Srilanka
> 
> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @dadeechi


1)I'll take that news with a truckload of salt.
2) Let's first see the LCA in service with the IAF in numbers and attaining FOC, until then it is rather absurd to be bragging about export options.

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> 1)I'll take that news with a truckload of salt.
> 2) Let's first see the LCA in service with the IAF in numbers and attaining FOC, until then it is rather absurd to be bragging about export options.


I am not even sure if HAL has dedicated service side. For ALH export issues, they literally took esign and manufacturing engineers and send them out to address issues. It is absurd to talk about exports.

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## knight11

MilSpec said:


> I am not even sure if HAL has dedicated service side. For ALH export issues, they literally took esign and manufacturing engineers and send them out to address issues. It is absurd to talk about exports.



Sir, the countries have shown interest. That news should be taken positively. I agree with you on the service issues, but for Srilanka, don't you think its very much possible, as it is close to Banglore.


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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> Sir, the countries have shown interest. That news should be taken positively. I agree with you on the service issues, but for Srilanka, don't you think its very much possible, as it is close to Banglore.


But what's the rush? The LCA can't afford to be burnt with another Ecuardor experience, I'd prefer it if HAL properly assesed the SLAF's ability to operate the LCA and worked with the IAF to devise a comprehensive training package for the SLAF.

I do agree though, there arguably is no better (first) export customer than Sri Lanka given their (geographical and geopoltical) proximity to India and HAL's centres especially.


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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> But what's the rush? The LCA can't afford to be burnt with another Ecuardor experience, I'd prefer it if HAL properly assesed the SLAF's ability to operate the LCA and worked with the IAF to devise a comprehensive training package for the SLAF.
> 
> I do agree though, there arguably is no better (first) export customer than Sri Lanka given their (geographical and geopoltical) proximity to India and HAL's centres especially.



Nothing Hush hush, for a deal to be finalized, lot of time could be consumed if the customer wants few customization. HAL don't have the experience but some way we have to start sometime.

SL Airforce personal comes to Banglore for training purpose.

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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> Nothing Hush hush, for a deal to be finalized, lot of time could be consumed if the customer wants few customization. HAL don't have the experience but some way we have to start sometime.
> 
> SL Airforce personal comes to Banglore for training purpose.


HAL needs to spin off a marketing and sales/commerical divison like Antrix of ISRO with the sole aim of securing and supporting foreign customers.

Again, there's no rush IMO- let the LCA get up and running in the IAF first plus where is the productive capacity to service any export orders? Until 2020 100% of the LCA's productive capacity will be devouted to meet the IAF's needs, it won't be until they start churning out 25 LCA/year from 2020/21 onwards that there will be scope to service an export customer- unless the IAF sacrifices some of their delivery timelines for an export customer.

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## knight11



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## Abingdonboy

N


knight11 said:


>


Good to keep reminding those idiots who claim the LCA is a "failed" project that has contributed nothing to India. 

A true pan India effort that will pay dividends in the long term.

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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> N
> 
> Good to keep reminding those idiots who claim the LCA is a "failed" project that has contributed nothing to India.
> 
> A true pan India effort that will pay dividends in the long term.



Actually I posted to remind me, I don't care for the fools.

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## mkb95



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## Water Car Engineer

Damn it, I want arrestor hook trials..!


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## Grevion

Is the FOC is slated for june?? 
Hope that the LCA will have FOC this year, it is essential for the MK1A


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## Perpendicular

Naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which will operate from India’s indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, after it is commissioned in 2018, has completed a successful flight-test campaign in Goa. Commodore (Retired) CD Balaji, chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas development programme, told Business Standard that taking off and landing from a 200-metre deck has been fully established.

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## BON PLAN

Seems the designers forgot to integrate a lot of parts..... see all the warts on the body.

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## Nimitam

BON PLAN said:


> Seems the designers forgot to integrate a lot of parts..... see all the warts on the body.



Is that what passes for French humour ?


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## Water Car Engineer

BON PLAN said:


> Seems the designers forgot to integrate a lot of parts..... see all the warts on the body.




The main bulges are due to the landing gear, which needs to be redesigned. It was, 'overdesigned', for the initial naval prototypes.






NP1-2






In the next NPs, it seems the undercarriage is stretched.

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## BON PLAN

Nimitam said:


> Is that what passes for French humour ?


Facts, just facts.
Humour is not a french specialty.


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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> Facts, just facts.
> Humour is not a french specialty.



What bollocks! You guys have Asterix and Obelix


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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> What bollocks! You guys have Asterix and Obelix


bollock ? What is that?
Indian humour ? (LOL)


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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> bollock ? What is that?
> Indian humour ? (LOL)



Indians have only borrowed humour... Bollocks is a British slang expressing disbelief or surprise


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## GORKHALI

KEY SUMMARY 

SP1 and SP2 handed over to IAF, *SP3 almost ready and SP4 will join later by end of July.* First Squadron by the end of July or early August with Four aircraft in Bangalore (SP1-SP4). 
*SP-5 ,SP-6 and even SP-7 *seen in Sub-Assembly Jig . 
Work seen been carried out on Rear Fuselage assembly of SP-5 
New Paintshop hangar to be inaugurated in next few days .
 10 Days is what it takes to Paint one Tejas fighter jet FOC expected by end of this year Tejas MK-1A to take to air by 2018 65 % is indigenisation level of LCA-Tejas 
New Hangars are under construction to house 1st Squadron near HAL facility before its moved to Sulur .

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## sathya

Watch 2:21, there is black portion in the under surface just behind the radome...

New modification ?


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## Nimitam

Spectre said:


> Indians have only borrowed humour... Bollocks is a British slang expressing disbelief or surprise



What do you mean by 'borrowed humour' ? 

One of books of the great writer Kalidasa was the comedy Ratnavali. And this was written back in 100 C.E. 

Another of the famous character in Malavikagnimitram is the court Jester, Vidushaka. Malavikagnimitram is a delightful comedy. 

Maha Kavi Shyamilaka wrote the comedy drama 'Padataditakam' in the 5th Century. 

From Kashmir we have satires written by Mahakavi Ksemendra called 'Suvritta Tilaka' in the 10th century.

I think Indians are among the most jovial people on the planet.


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## Spectre

Nimitam said:


> What do you mean by 'borrowed humour' ?
> 
> One of books of the great writer Kalidasa was the comedy Ratnavali. And this was written back in 100 C.E.
> 
> Another of the famous character in Malavikagnimitram is the court Jester, Vidushaka. Malavikagnimitram is a delightful comedy.
> 
> Maha Kavi Shyamilaka wrote the comedy drama 'Padataditakam' in the 5th Century.
> 
> From Kashmir we have satires written by Mahakavi Ksemendra called 'Suvritta Tilaka' in the 10th century.
> 
> *I think Indians are among the most jovial people on the planet*.



That could be the case, when i spoke - I spoke for English Language humour. I am not very familiar with vernacular works.


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## Nimitam

Spectre said:


> That could be the case, when i spoke - I spoke for English Language humour. I am not very familiar with vernacular works.



We do not have too many english fiction writers. But of the few we have, RK Narayan stores are full of Witticisms. 

Indian writer usually focus on situational comedy and wit e.g. Mungeri lala ke haseen sapne. , Malgudi days, etc. 

It is fair to say we never had a Charlie Chaplin or a PG Woodhouse or a Astrix&OBlix or even a Calvin &Hobbs or Dilbert, but again in all fairness we did not have much to rejoice or laugh about in our recent pasts. 

.......anyway this is off topic. Just don't generalize about India.


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## MilSpec

GORKHALI said:


> KEY SUMMARY
> 
> SP1 and SP2 handed over to IAF, *SP3 almost ready and SP4 will join later by end of July.* First Squadron by the end of July or early August with Four aircraft in Bangalore (SP1-SP4).
> *SP-5 ,SP-6 and even SP-7 *seen in Sub-Assembly Jig .
> Work seen been carried out on Rear Fuselage assembly of SP-5
> New Paintshop hangar to be inaugurated in next few days .
> 10 Days is what it takes to Paint one Tejas fighter jet FOC expected by end of this year Tejas MK-1A to take to air by 2018 65 % is indigenisation level of LCA-Tejas
> New Hangars are under construction to house 1st Squadron near HAL facility before its moved to Sulur .



I am a little sckeitical about the the entire sub contract format for air frame items, all it takes is one bad quality manager to eff up the entire ppap regime or poor materials groups to cause parts outages. On the plus side if supplier parts are managed properly, we might see a much faster production rate. Lets see how it goes.


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## SR-91

I can't believe they don't have automated assembly line, especially structural. Riveting is very time consuming. I went to Aviation high school and worked on various Cessna and TA-F4 fighter jet. When I tell you drilling holes and riveting consumes a lot of time. I mean It takes a lot of time. Second, in my opinion they are using too many rivets, they can most certainly reduces it. It will help in reducing some weight and some drag.

HAL needs to move on from manual and spend money on automated structural assembly line. Laser drilling and automated riveting is a must.

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## nik22

Air Chief Arup Raha will take sortie tomorrow in Tejas Trainer aircraft at HAL Bangalore.

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## knight11

*IAF chief Arup Raha flew the indigenously designed and produced LCA Tejas for about 30 minutes at the HAL airport.*
By: FE Online | Updated: May 17, 2016 7:08 PM
11 1 G+0 0



IAF chief Arup Raha carried out manoeuvres with the LCA Tejas in the entire flying envelope of the aircraft. (HAL Photo)

Giving his thumbs up to HAL’s Tejas, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief on Tuesday had his first sortie in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), after which he called it a “good aircraft for induction”. “It is my first sortie in Tejas, it is a good aircraft for induction into IAF operations,” Raha said.

Raha flew the indigenously designed and produced LCA Tejas for about 30 minutes at the HAL airport. Group Captain M. Rangachari was with him in the twin-seater trainer aircraft.

The Air Chief Marshal carried out manoeuvres in the entire flying envelope of the aircraft. He carried out simulated air to air and air to ground attacks. He also assessed the advanced modes of the radar and Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDs).

“An ace fighter pilot himself, Air Chief Marshal Raha appreciated the flying qualities of the aircraft. He congratulated the entire team of HAL and others involved in getting the LCA program to this stage.],” the HAL release said.






IAF chief Arup Raha has his first sortie in LCA Tejas. (HAL photo)

Commenting on the test flight, T Suvarna Raju, CMD of HAL said, “It is a moral boosting gesture from the IAF Chief and reposes great confidence of our valuable customer in our abilities.”

The series production of the Tejas aircraft has already commenced at HAL Bengaluru and the first squadron of the LCA is expected to be formed by July 2016.

The Air Chief also stock of HTT-40 (Basic Trainer) which was parked on the tarmac besides visiting LCA production line and other facilities, the release added.




IAF chief Arup Raha has his first sortie in LCA Tejas. (HAL photo)

The Tejas LCA is a supersonic, multirole light fighter aircraft, which has been under development for the past three decades. It has been co-developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency in cooperation with HAL to replace the IAF’s aging fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-23 aircraft.

India needs about 300 aircraft of the LCA, therefore to speed up induction of the ‘Tejas’, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has decided to upgrade the aircraft with over 40 modifications. With MoD setting a 2018 deadline for making the first upgraded Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’, state-owned HAL is seeking help from Swedish company SAAB.






IAF chief Arup Raha has his first sortie in LCA Tejas. (HAL photo)

Earlier this month, T Suvarna Raju told FE, “For enhancing the capability of the indigenous LCA, HAL is in talks with the SAAB.” “By June 2016, our company will hand over the fourth aircraft to the IAF. The four aircraft will make up for the first squadron of IAF which will be used for training,” he added.




IAF chief Arup Raha has his first sortie in LCA Tejas. (IAF Photo)

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## Water Car Engineer



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## knight11

*As Sea Harriers retire, Naval LCA readies to fly off aircraft carrier next year*

At the end of thirty years of flying from Indian Navy aircraft carriers, the iconic Sea Harrier jump jet will make its ceremonial last flight on Wednesday. Readying to take its place is the naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which recently completed a successful flight-test campaign in Goa.

While the Sea Harriers operated from the INS Vikrant and INS Viraat, now both retired, the Naval Tejas will operate from the Vikrant’s successor, an indigenous aircraft carrier that is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.
*
Commodore (Retired) CD Balaji, chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas development programme, told Business Standard that taking off and landing from a 200-metre deck has been fully established. So has “hot-refuelling” --- topping up the aircraft after a sortie with the engine running and the pilot in the cockpit --- which allows a rapid turnaround between sorties.*

For the navy, it is vital to ready the Tejas for the INS Vikrant and, subsequently, the next aircraft carrier, INS Vishal. The MiG-29K will be the medium fighter on INS Vikrant, as it already is on INS Vikramaditya. The Tejas is crucial for filling in the light fighter slot.

*Balaji reveals a committed navy is funding 40 per cent of the development cost of the Naval Tejas. The MoD has allocated Rs 3,650 crore for the naval programme.*

*The ADA chief described the flight trials in Goa between March 27 and April 25, in which two Naval Tejas prototypes flew 33 sorties from* a Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) -- a full-scale replica of an aircraft carrier deck. Built on land, the SBTF allows carrier deck take-offs and landings to be validated, without unduly endangering an aircraft carrier, or an aircraft prototype and pilot.

When taking off from an aircraft carrier, a fighter revs up its engine to the maximum, while held back by a “restraining gear system” (RGS). Then, the RGS is disengaged, and the fighter shoots forward, accelerating to take-off speed in just 200 metres of deck. At the end of the deck runway, a “ski-jump” lifts the aircraft upwards, after which it flies on its own power.
*
In December 2014, the Naval Tejas had taken off from the SBTF ski-jump after rolling 300 metres. Now, the fighter has proven it can take off from just 200 metres, even carrying two R-73 close combat missiles.

“With this campaign, ski-jump launches are no longer a challenge. We will now explore the limits the fighter can be taken to. We will further fine-tune the control law software to take-off with higher payloads,” said Balaji.*

In aircraft carrier combat operations at sea,* the Naval Tejas must take off with up to 3.5 tonnes of payload--- more fuel for longer range; and more weapons for a lethal punch. For this, the aircraft carrier would steam into the wind, ensuring a “wind-over-deck speed” of up to 20 knots.* That would provide added lift to the aircraft, allowing higher payloads.

In aircraft carriers with catapult launchers, as the navy’s next indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, could be, the catapult allows higher launch speeds and, therefore, higher payloads.

Similarly, fitting the Tejas Mark-2 with the more powerful General Electric F-414 engine (the current Mark -1 fighter has the smaller F-404 engine) will allow greater payloads and more ambitious mission objectives.

Even more challenging than taking off from a 200-metre carrier deck is to land an aircraft back on the carrier. This requires touching down precisely at the edge of the runway, aligning the approach with the help of an “optical landing system” and a “landing control post”. At landing, an “arresting gear system” --- including wire cables across the deck runway --- latches onto a hook on the fighter’s tail and rapidly decelerates it to a halt.
*
“In the current campaign, the Tejas did over 60 approaches (without actually touching down) to gather data for fine-tuning the control law software. In the next campaign this month, we will do “touch and go” approaches to validate the software and then graduate to full landings,” explains Balaji.

Finally, the Naval Tejas demonstrated its “fuel jettison” capability --- a safety feature that allows the fighter to quickly jettison on-board fuel if it encounters a problem soon after launch and must quickly return for an emergency landing on the carrier.

“By mid-2017, we will have established on the SBTF that the Naval Tejas can be flown off an actual carrier, and we will then graduate to ship-based testing. We currently have two prototypes in testing, and will build a third by then”, says a satisfied ADA chief.*

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## Nimitam

knight11 said:


> *As Sea Harriers retire, Naval LCA readies to fly off aircraft carrier next year*
> 
> At the end of thirty years of flying from Indian Navy aircraft carriers, the iconic Sea Harrier jump jet will make its ceremonial last flight on Wednesday. Readying to take its place is the naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which recently completed a successful flight-test campaign in Goa.
> 
> While the Sea Harriers operated from the INS Vikrant and INS Viraat, now both retired, the Naval Tejas will operate from the Vikrant’s successor, an indigenous aircraft carrier that is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.
> *
> Commodore (Retired) CD Balaji, chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas development programme, told Business Standard that taking off and landing from a 200-metre deck has been fully established. So has “hot-refuelling” --- topping up the aircraft after a sortie with the engine running and the pilot in the cockpit --- which allows a rapid turnaround between sorties.*
> 
> For the navy, it is vital to ready the Tejas for the INS Vikrant and, subsequently, the next aircraft carrier, INS Vishal. The MiG-29K will be the medium fighter on INS Vikrant, as it already is on INS Vikramaditya. The Tejas is crucial for filling in the light fighter slot.
> 
> *Balaji reveals a committed navy is funding 40 per cent of the development cost of the Naval Tejas. The MoD has allocated Rs 3,650 crore for the naval programme.*
> 
> *The ADA chief described the flight trials in Goa between March 27 and April 25, in which two Naval Tejas prototypes flew 33 sorties from* a Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) -- a full-scale replica of an aircraft carrier deck. Built on land, the SBTF allows carrier deck take-offs and landings to be validated, without unduly endangering an aircraft carrier, or an aircraft prototype and pilot.
> 
> When taking off from an aircraft carrier, a fighter revs up its engine to the maximum, while held back by a “restraining gear system” (RGS). Then, the RGS is disengaged, and the fighter shoots forward, accelerating to take-off speed in just 200 metres of deck. At the end of the deck runway, a “ski-jump” lifts the aircraft upwards, after which it flies on its own power.
> *
> In December 2014, the Naval Tejas had taken off from the SBTF ski-jump after rolling 300 metres. Now, the fighter has proven it can take off from just 200 metres, even carrying two R-73 close combat missiles.
> 
> “With this campaign, ski-jump launches are no longer a challenge. We will now explore the limits the fighter can be taken to. We will further fine-tune the control law software to take-off with higher payloads,” said Balaji.*
> 
> In aircraft carrier combat operations at sea,* the Naval Tejas must take off with up to 3.5 tonnes of payload--- more fuel for longer range; and more weapons for a lethal punch. For this, the aircraft carrier would steam into the wind, ensuring a “wind-over-deck speed” of up to 20 knots.* That would provide added lift to the aircraft, allowing higher payloads.
> 
> In aircraft carriers with catapult launchers, as the navy’s next indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, could be, the catapult allows higher launch speeds and, therefore, higher payloads.
> 
> Similarly, fitting the Tejas Mark-2 with the more powerful General Electric F-414 engine (the current Mark -1 fighter has the smaller F-404 engine) will allow greater payloads and more ambitious mission objectives.
> 
> Even more challenging than taking off from a 200-metre carrier deck is to land an aircraft back on the carrier. This requires touching down precisely at the edge of the runway, aligning the approach with the help of an “optical landing system” and a “landing control post”. At landing, an “arresting gear system” --- including wire cables across the deck runway --- latches onto a hook on the fighter’s tail and rapidly decelerates it to a halt.
> *
> “In the current campaign, the Tejas did over 60 approaches (without actually touching down) to gather data for fine-tuning the control law software. In the next campaign this month, we will do “touch and go” approaches to validate the software and then graduate to full landings,” explains Balaji.
> 
> Finally, the Naval Tejas demonstrated its “fuel jettison” capability --- a safety feature that allows the fighter to quickly jettison on-board fuel if it encounters a problem soon after launch and must quickly return for an emergency landing on the carrier.
> 
> “By mid-2017, we will have established on the SBTF that the Naval Tejas can be flown off an actual carrier, and we will then graduate to ship-based testing. We currently have two prototypes in testing, and will build a third by then”, says a satisfied ADA chief.*



Sometimes Naval Project management is Top notch.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/735093992476413952
Some surprise tomorrow ?


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## Sergi

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/735093992476413952
> Some surprise tomorrow ?


Night flight trials of Naval prototypes from Goa

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## Water Car Engineer

*NLCA first night ramp take off*






*NLCA fuel jettison trials in Goa*

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## sudhir007



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## Ind4Ever

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/735093992476413952
> Some surprise tomorrow ?


i think tejas soon will take off from viki


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## Agent_47

*But, then, ADA and HAL [Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ] weren’t delivering the final version of Tejas.
That is what leadership is all about. I ensured that ADA delivers what the Air Force wanted. I had 18 meetings with them, we sorted it out. Finally, the Air Force says it will buy 120 Tejas aircraft… We are offering to friendly countries and we may start exporting also. Tejas aircraft were made and dumped, I made it operational. *Basically, what I want to say is that there was a mess created over a period of 10 years due to no decisions. Now decisions are being made and its impact will be felt as the days pass. Whether it’s intelligence or counter-insurgency, whether decisions are about equipment supplies to armed forces, we are taking decisions. In the last two years we have finalised contracts for almost Rs 1.15 lakh crore. But, what is more important is that contracts for another Rs 1.15 lakh crore are in the pipeline. We have brought it near a conclusion. In another one or two years, we will sign those contracts. What is needed is to look at the total impact of ten years of the UPA government. They could mainly procure government-to-government sales from the US. For 36 years there was no gun prepared for India. I am pleased to tell you that the Dhanush trial has been successfully done in the desert. There will be one more final desert trial and even a cold weather trial. By the year-end we will start manufacturing the gun, which will be better than Bofors. The original technology was transferred from Bofors but we have indigenously developed it and the Ordnance Factory Board, Kanpur and Jabalpur, will manufacture it. By August or September we will finalise an order for Vajra (self-propelled Howitzer gun) to the private sector. First time in 36 years, decisions on guns, tanks and aircrafts are being taken in the ministry.

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...nce-procurement-2815916/#sthash.F8LKn7xx.dpuf

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## Trisonics



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## Agent_47

Trisonics said:


>


Ratan Tata ,You are a hero.

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## Water Car Engineer

Agent_47 said:


> Ratan Tata ,You are a hero.





Going down as a legend, nationalist for sure.

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## nang2

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Remind me this.

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## Sri

nang2 said:


> Remind me this.



Well thats true both resemble quite a lot from the pics above. But I believe the chinese plane seems to be not a delta winged. could you please let us know what this plane is?


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## GORKHALI

nang2 said:


> Remind me this.


What the name of it ?


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## FNFAL

GORKHALI said:


> What the name of it ?


Hongdu L15



nang2 said:


> Remind me this.


The l15 reminded me of this: The yak 130

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## proud_indian



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## Foxbat Alok

GOOD NEWS 
NAVAL TEJAS readies to fly off aircraft carrier next year
http://www.defenceupdate.in/sea-har...s-readies-fly-off-aircraft-carrier-next-year/

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## MilSpec

proud_indian said:


>


Yupp, another HAL bashing video without any representation from HAL.

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## nang2

FNFAL said:


> Hongdu L15
> 
> 
> The l15 reminded me of this: The yak 130


Which also reminds me of this.


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## indiatester

MilSpec said:


> Yupp, another HAL bashing video without any representation from HAL.


That is exactly what I was thinking. It was only the IAF guys and no one questioning them for their proclamations.

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## MilSpec

Water Car Engineer said:


> Going down as a legend, nationalist for sure.


It would be a good move even now, If Tata Group took over the a separate production line for LCA Mk2.

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## Water Car Engineer

MilSpec said:


> It would be a good move even now, If Tata Group took over the a separate production line for LCA Mk2.




Yeah. Well, what is assured is that the modules of Tejas will come from maybe TATA among others. I dont know who HAL is talking to, but they're talking to some players for fuselage, wings, etc. They've stated up to 80% will be outsourced.

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## MilSpec

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yeah. Well, what is assured is that the modules of Tejas will come from maybe TATA among others. I dont know who HAL is talking to, but they're talking to some players for fuselage, wings, etc. They've stated up to 80% will be outsourced.



That seriously worries me. Supplier quality management has been notorious, just a simple thing like a bom change is a nightmare in HAL like environment.


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## Water Car Engineer

MilSpec said:


> That seriously worries me. Supplier quality management has been notorious, just a simple thing like a bom change is a nightmare in HAL like environment.



Personally, not for me, and I welcome it. If Boeing, RUAG, Bell, Lockheed Martin, Sikorsky, Pilatus, Airbus, Cobham, etc, etc. can integrate Mahindra aerospace, TATA aerospace, Dynamic Tech, etc into their supply chain, there's no excuse HAL can give.

HAL is already late on leveraging them for major assemblies. As Global OEM are using them for Chinook modules, Dornier fuselage, S-92 cabins, will produce PC-12 fuselage, etc. will produce Apache Block 3's fuselage, will integrate C295s, etc.

Regardless, ADA is going for this approach anyway for their future programs. DRDO might even side line HAL completely, they did it recently to OFB with Kestrel(TATA Motors) and ATAGS(Bharat Forge/TATA Power SED). If they do, it'll only make a more competitive HAL.

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## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> Personally, not for me, and I welcome it. If Boeing, RUAG, Bell, Lockheed Martin, Sikorsky, Pilatus, Airbus, Cobham, etc, etc. can integrate Mahindra aerospace, TATA aerospace, Dynamic Tech, etc into their supply chain, there's no excuse HAL can give.
> 
> HAL is already late on leveraging them for major assemblies. As Global OEM are using them for Chinook modules, Dornier fuselage, S-92 cabins, will produce PC-12 fuselage, etc. will produce Apache Block 3's fuselage, will integrate C295s, etc.
> 
> Regardless, ADA is going for this approach anyway for their future programs. DRDO might even side line HAL completely, they did it recently to OFB with Kestrel(TATA) and ATAGS(Bharat Forge/TATA Power SED). If they do, it'll only make a more competitive HAL.




Yes sad thing is even in cars , ones meant for India is different from the ones for export.


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## heisenberg

Discussion on LCA Tejas


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## shree835



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## zootinali

I m sorry if it was posted before.

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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> Yes sad thing is even in cars , ones meant for India is different from the ones for export.


None of the products @Water Car Engineer has mentioend are of a different quality than any other foriegn made product. They all have to adhere to the same QA.

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## Carlosa

Abingdonboy said:


> None of the products @Water Car Engineer has mentioend are of a different quality than any other foriegn made product. They all have to adhere to the same QA.



One question guys, as I understand, the change of the engine in the Tejas takes an awful lot of time as a consequence of the aircraft been designed for one engine and then using a different engine, so I wonder if that issue has been resolved or somewhat mitigated in the Tejas MKI-A version?


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## Sri

Carlosa said:


> One question guys, as I understand, the change of the engine in the Tejas takes an awful lot of time as a consequence of the aircraft been designed for one engine and then using a different engine, so I wonder if that issue has been resolved or somewhat mitigated in the Tejas MKI-A version?


The Problem of LCA MK1 was not primarily Thrust to Weight but Drag, Serviceability, Self protection. The Current version has pretty decent thrust to weight ratio. What is intended in MK1A is slight reduction in drag, slight reduction of weight ( there is lot of dead weight inside added for CG), improvement of internal layout for better serviceability. self protection suite, Aesa radar for better offence and defence purpose. with these improvements LCA should be acceptable to IAF.

Infact MK2 is primarily a Navy requirement.

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## Carlosa

Sri said:


> The Problem of LCA MK1 was not primarily Thrust to Weight but Drag, Serviceability, Self protection. The Current version has pretty decent thrust to weight ratio. What is intended in MK1A is slight reduction in drag, slight reduction of weight ( there is lot of dead weight inside added for CG), improvement of internal layout for better serviceability. self protection suite, Aesa radar for better offence and defence purpose. with these improvements LCA should be acceptable to IAF.
> 
> Infact MK2 is primarily a Navy requirement.



I'm not talking about Thrust to Weight, I'm talking about how many hours it takes to change an engine in the LCA MK1 (a lot of hours) and I wonder if that issue has been improved in the Tejas MKI-A version.


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## Abingdonboy

Carlosa said:


> One question guys, as I understand, the change of the engine in the Tejas takes an awful lot of time as a consequence of the aircraft been designed for one engine and then using a different engine, so I wonder if that issue has been resolved or somewhat mitigated in the Tejas MKI-A version?


Whilst it is true the LCA was designed to be powered by the Kaveri there is no issue in "dropping out"/changing the F404 now that it is fitted. All the required intergration work was done long back.

The Mk.1A features no external/structural changes to the Mk.1 (first 20 units), it is simply set to receive extra features such as an IFR probe, AESA radar, improved avionics etc etc.

The Mk.2 will be dramatically different externally (longer, larger wing area, optimised interal fuel capacity etc) to the MK.1/A and will itself be designed around the F414-GE-INS6.

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## Sri

Carlosa said:


> I'm not talking about Thrust to Weight, I'm talking about how many hours it takes to change an engine in the LCA MK1 (a lot of hours) and I wonder if that issue has been improved in the Tejas MKI-A version.



Yes currently it takes quite a lot of time for engine replacement. as of now we do not have exact numbers as its not is active service. and the MK1A configuration should address this kind of service issue as well.


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## Carlosa

Abingdonboy said:


> Whilst it is true the LCA was designed to be powered by the Kaveri there is no issue in "dropping out"/changing the F404 now that it is fitted. All the required intergration work was done long back.
> 
> The Mk.1A features no external/structural changes to the Mk.1 (first 20 units), it is simply set to receive extra features such as an IFR probe, AESA radar, improved avionics etc etc.
> 
> The Mk.2 will be dramatically different externally (longer, larger wing area, optimised interal fuel capacity etc) to the MK.1/A and will itself be designed around the F414-GE-INS6.



Well, there is an issue in the sense that it takes too many hours to replace an engine due to the differences between the Kavery and the GE engine now. I used to read that the issue was going to be solved in the MK2 version. Anyway, if there is no external/structural changes, then that means that it continues to be the same. Thanks.



Sri said:


> Yes currently it takes quite a lot of time for engine replacement. as of now we do not have exact numbers as its not is active service. and the MK1A configuration should address this kind of service issue as well.



That would be nice then if the MK1A configuration has solved the issue.


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## Abingdonboy

Carlosa said:


> Well, there is an issue in the sense that it takes too many hours to replace an engine due to the differences between the Kavery and the GE engine now.


The Kaveri engine was long since de-linked from the LCA project so any issues with changing the F404 of the LCA should be addressed now.

The issue with the F404 vis a vis the LCA had always been to do with air flow, the LCA's air intakes had been designed for the Kaveri engine but rhe F404 had different requirements which had been a challenge to accomadate (but now has been).

There really shouldn't be too much trouble changing the F404 on the LCA given that it is a relatively simple engine and a Western one at that.



Carlosa said:


> I used to read that the issue was going to be solved in the MK2 version.


The Mk.2 will have an entirely different engine (F414) and will have been designed around this uprated engine from day one so the issues encountered with the F404 for the Mk.1 will not be encountered that is for sure.

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## Carlosa

Abingdonboy said:


> The Kaveri engine was long since de-linked from the LCA project so any issues with changing the F404 of the LCA should be addressed now.
> 
> The issue with the F404 vis a vis the LCA had always been to do with air flow, the LCA's air intakes had been designed for the Kaveri engine but rhe F404 had different requirements which had been a challenge to accomadate (but now has been).
> 
> There really shouldn't be too much trouble changing the F404 on the LCA given that it is a relatively simple engine and a Western one at that.



There is an issue due to the size difference of the 2 engines, the GE engine has been adapted to the current airframe in the only possible way that it could be done, but it resulted in taking a lot of hours to replace an engine. This issue was covered extensively in this thread in the past. I know the issue will be fully solved in the MK2, but I was wondering / hoping that it would be fixed / improved in the MK-1A version. @Sri thinks it might be. That would be nice. Anyway, read his post, he knows about this issue.


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## Abingdonboy

Carlosa said:


> There is an issue due to the size difference of the 2 engines, the GE engine has been adapted to the current airframe in the only possible way that it could be done, but it resulted in taking a lot of hours to replace an engine. This issue was covered extensively in this thread in the past. I know the issue will be fully solved in the MK2, but I was wondering / hoping that it would be fixed / improved in the MK-1A version. @Sri thinks it might be. That would be nice. Anyway, read his post, he knows about this issue.


The Mk.1A may feature some design optimisation to further enhance the capability of the LCA but it won't see any major structural changes to the Mk.1. The Mk.1A is about adding all the equipment the IAF would like to have (AESA radar, IFR probe, improved avionics etc). As far as the changing engine issues I don't think they will be particuarly troublesome on the Mk.1 as the IAF will have outlined a set of requirements around this and a maximum time period such things should take, the Mk.1 has passed this benchmark. Considering the F404 itself is a very durable and reliable engine with a high TBO I don't think this matter is of much concern at all.

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## Sri

Carlosa said:


> There is an issue due to the size difference of the 2 engines, the GE engine has been adapted to the current airframe in the only possible way that it could be done, but it resulted in taking a lot of hours to replace an engine. This issue was covered extensively in this thread in the past. I know the issue will be fully solved in the MK2, but I was wondering / hoping that it would be fixed / improved in the MK-1A version. @Sri thinks it might be. That would be nice. Anyway, read his post, he knows about this issue.



Hi Carlosa, What I mean is -- the engine is not the current issue but other LRU etc are. Since you may have to remove some LRUs to reach/replace the engine. The LRUs will be better arranged in the modified avatar leading to reduction in time taken for replacement.

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## Rajaraja Chola

Abingdonboy said:


> Whilst it is true the LCA was designed to be powered by the Kaveri there is no issue in "dropping out"/changing the F404 now that it is fitted. All the required intergration work was done long back.
> 
> The Mk.1A features no external/structural changes to the Mk.1 (first 20 units), it is simply set to receive extra features such as an IFR probe, AESA radar, improved avionics etc etc.
> 
> The Mk.2 will be dramatically different externally (longer, larger wing area, optimised interal fuel capacity etc) to the MK.1/A and will itself be designed around the F414-GE-INS6.



No. The Mk2 has been dropped. Its going to be only Mk1A. DM wants more concentration of AMCA.

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## Sri

Rajaraja Chola said:


> No. The Mk2 has been dropped. Its going to be only Mk1A. DM wants more concentration of AMCA.


Makes sense, but what about Navy's requirement.


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## Abingdonboy

Rajaraja Chola said:


> No. The Mk2 has been dropped. Its going to be only Mk1A. DM wants more concentration of AMCA.


Untrue, the Mk.2 project is very much on, the MK.1A will simply cover the time for it to be developed. The AMCA is an entirely seperate project with no relation to the MK.2 at all, both will be pursued.



Sri said:


> Makes sense, but what about Navy's requirement.


The IN is ONLY interested in the Mk.2, for this reason alone the Mk.2 project is going ahead and the IAF itself is actually very interested in the Mk.2 for 2020 and beyond.

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## Carlosa

Sri said:


> Hi Carlosa, What I mean is -- the engine is not the current issue but other LRU etc are. Since you may have to remove some LRUs to reach/replace the engine. The LRUs will be better arranged in the modified avatar leading to reduction in time taken for replacement.



Ah ok, I think you nailed it. Then it should be ok in the MK-1A version. That's even more important now that the production will be consolidated into the MK-1A version. In an actual conflict its important to be able to turn around the plane right away.

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## Rajaraja Chola

Abingdonboy said:


> Untrue, the Mk.2 project is very much on, the MK.1A will simply cover the time for it to be developed. The AMCA is an entirely seperate project with no relation to the MK.2 at all, both will be pursued.
> 
> 
> The IN is ONLY interested in the Mk.2, for this reason alone the Mk.2 project is going ahead and the IAF itself is actually very interested in the Mk.2 for 2020 and beyond.



It will be dropped. You just wait and see. Maybe concentration on NLCA might happen with modified NLCA MK2. But not the AF version.


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## sathya

GE F414 in s6, 

Why is it so late to get delivered ?

Should have been here long time ago..

@PARIKRAMA any info that you could dig in ?


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## Assadynasty

sathya said:


> GE F414 in s6,
> 
> Why is it so late to get delivered ?
> 
> Should have been here long time ago..
> 
> @PARIKRAMA any info that you could dig in ?




Americans control the engine. Americans control the pace.


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## fsayed

Assadynasty said:


> Americans control the engine. Americans control the pace.


That is going to change in next decade party is just started

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## fsayed



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## indiatester

fsayed said:


>


These people dramatize every thing. We need a rating system for these videos.

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## Water Car Engineer

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2016/jun_16.pdf

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## PARIKRAMA

*Tejas - LCA added 3 new photos.*
8 hrs · 
Naval LCA NP-2 Maiden Night Operation in Goa
Stay Tuned for the next set of Unreleased Pictures.
‪#‎NLCA‬











https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/photos/pcb.1081171481977299/1081168985310882/?type=3


*Tejas - LCA added 4 new photos.*
2 hrs · 
LCA NP-2 Undergoing Carrier Compatibility Tests and Night Trials at the shore-based test facility in Goa
More Pictures & Videos to be released soon.

‪#‎NLCA‬

PC - Deb Rana..

























https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/posts/1081643181930129

faebook_update
@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @anant_s @Joe Shearer @nair @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil
@Levina @Water Car Engineer @others

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## ultron

Only 1 SP so far. Cannot have a squadron made up of only 1 plane.


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## Water Car Engineer

ultron said:


> Only 1 SP so far. Cannot have a squadron made up of only 1 plane.




2 SPs.


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## ultron

Water Car Engineer said:


> 2 SPs.




Okay. But still 10 years behind schedule. First squadron should have been ready by 2007.


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## Water Car Engineer

ultron said:


> Okay. But still 10 years behind schedule. First squadron should have been ready by 2007.



Superboy, the worst thing is that it doesnt have DSI. Please forget anything else. That needs to be addressed.

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## ultron

Water Car Engineer said:


> Superboy, the worst thing is that it doesnt have DSI. Please forget anything else. That needs to be addressed.




LCA lacks DSI and engine. American engine don't count. Indians are Indo Europeans should be able to make engine.


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## C130

Assadynasty said:


> Americans control the engine. Americans control the pace.





that makes no sense. 

considering on how long it has taken to develop MK.1 it's no surprise MK.2 would be lagging behind.

don't blame the engine or the U.S


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## Water Car Engineer

ultron said:


> LCA lacks DSI and engine. American engine don't count. Indians are Indo Europeans should be able to make engine.




Please forget about the engine, we know DSI is more important, thanks.

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## GORKHALI

DSI is the life,DSI is the death in this world DSI is the only truth.. DSI ..DSI..DSI.

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## AKD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/743297412450525184

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## GORKHALI

Enjoyyyy................

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## zootinali

Saw the video in d_f_i , thought I would post it here.





Enjoyyyy................
Flies away

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## arjun05

know why india is replacing R73 with Python 5 for tejas

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## arjun05

hal tejas np 2 night trials at goa 





the journey of tejas


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## Perpendicular

Sourabh joshi 

The naval program for India’s indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is set to face a feasibility review and Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar has asked for a recommendation on its future within the next couple of months.

As reported by _StratPost_, the navy has been compelled to take a decision on whether to continue with the LCA program after the Indian Air Force (IAF) announced their purchase of 80 LCA Mk1(A) aircraft, last year, in addition to the 40 Mk1 aircraft already on order. A Request For Information (RFI) has been issued to foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the requirements of the LCA Mk1A configuration, which include an AESA radar, Electronic Warfare Suite, Electronic Support Measures Suite etc.

The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had clarified that at the time they were ‘not looking’ at the proposed LCA Mk2 with the more powerful GE F414 engine, which is still to be developed.

The navy’s requirements demand an LCA powered by this same engine and it has been considering whether to fund the development of the Mk2 in its own since October. The existing naval prototype of the LCA is based on the existing Mk1 design. The development of the naval version has focused on ‘aerodynamic enhancements to improve low speed performance for carrier operation, addition of arrestor hook for deck recovery, need for a stronger undercarriage and cockpit redesign for naval operations’, according to the official Tejas LCA website.

According to naval sources, the naval LCA is increasingly likely to now be restricted to the role of a technology demonstrator, although there has been some discussion of a possible role as a front line fighter trainer.

The navy has also set up a test flying team at INS Hansa for trials, not only on the naval Tejas LCA, but all other naval aviation platforms and systems. The navy began arrested recovery trials recently. These trials include high sink rate approaches, touch-and-goes, full stops, and then finally arrested recovery ashore.

*INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER-2 (IAC-2)*
With the MiG-29K aircraft based on the INS Vikramaditya, and further destined for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 (IAC-1), INS Vikrant, attention is shifting to the air wing requirement of the second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, IAC-2.

According to sources in naval aviation, the navy has virtually decided on a design that includes nuclear propulsion, CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) operation and EMALS (Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System) for the proposed 65,000 ton carrier, although there is some dispute as to whether the expected tempo of operations is such as wouldn’t be better and more economically served with a steam catapult. 

The reason for the selection of a CATOBAR aircraft carrier is that aircraft CATOBAR-launched aircraft can launch with heavier loads which translates to increased range and carriage of weapons and sensors. This is also the reason the MiG-29K is not under consideration for the IAC-2, since it is a Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR)-capable aircraft. 

Sources said that the air wing of IAC-2 will comprise a total of around 65 aircraft, including 25-30 fighter aircraft. The rest will consist of helicopters and Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft.

*FIGHTERS FOR IAC-2*
In the long term, the navy will focus on the development of a naval Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), but in the nearer term, the navy will be looking at acquiring CATOBAR-capable fighter aircraft for IAC-2. Only three contemporary aircraft are capable of such operations today – the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale M and the Lockheed Martin F-35C. 

And although the Government of India is currently negotiating for 36 Rafale aircraft for the IAF, Boeing and the U.S. Government have offered to set up an assembly line for the twin-engine F/A-18 in India.

But an Indian Navy order for Super Hornets could well depend on the existence of an Indian assembly line because of timelines. Boeing has orders to keep its assembly line going till 2019-2020. An Indian Navy order to equip IAC-2 is unlikely to materialize before the middle of the 2020s, in which case, the only way for the navy to order Super Hornets would be if an assembly line were running in India, for the IAF. 

Sweden’s Saab has also offered to set up an assembly line for their single-engine Gripen in India. And although they have circulated the idea of a CATOBAR-capable naval Sea Gripen variant, it remains a concept at this stage.

Both the F/A-18 and the Gripen are powered by the same GE F414 engine.

http://www.stratpost.com/naval-lca-face-reckoning-as-navy-mulls-catobar-fighters


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## Kraitcorp

Team Tejas rewinds the testing time, it had undergone with this image of LSP-7 (KH -2017) taking off at AFS, Utarlai with 2X1000lbs MK11, 2 X1200 Ltr External drop tanks, 2X camera pods with high speed cameras and the LDP (one of the few heavier take off configurations)





LSP7 (KH-2017) seen here with a BVR (Derby) which was fired recently from the coast of Gujrat, signifying the capability of the aircraft towards operational requirements..

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## #hydra#

Kraitcorp said:


> Team Tejas rewinds the testing time, it had undergone with this image of LSP-7 (KH -2017) taking off at AFS, Utarlai with 2X1000lbs MK11, 2 X1200 Ltr External drop tanks, 2X camera pods with high speed cameras and the LDP (one of the few heavier take off configurations)


Small yet majestic

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## Sahil.universal

zebra7 said:


> Actually, ADA still building Super Duper Technology called DSI for LCA MK-2 Navy, that's why only 2 is more than enough to show that it has a bird that can fly. Have a deep Sleep now *Superboy/ultron*.




DSI.. can u shed some more light on tht?

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## zebra7

Sahil.universal said:


> DSI.. can u shed some more light on tht?



It stands for Diverterless Supersonic Intake, It is a novel air inlet design principle, used in fighter planes like F-16, F-35, J-31, J-20, J-10, JF-17. A Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI) compared to a conventional intake can reduce the weight and weight is the primary driver to reduce cost and increase performance of a fighter aircraft.

Check this link for more details

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/dsi.htm

Or use Google.

And most important there was one member named @Superboy, who always gaga over the DSI inlet in JF-17, and now its present avtaar @ultron.

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## zebra7

Perpendicular said:


> Sourabh joshi
> 
> The naval program for India’s indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is set to face a feasibility review and Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar has asked for a recommendation on its future within the next couple of months.
> 
> As reported by _StratPost_, the navy has been compelled to take a decision on whether to continue with the LCA program after the Indian Air Force (IAF) announced their purchase of 80 LCA Mk1(A) aircraft, last year, in addition to the 40 Mk1 aircraft already on order. A Request For Information (RFI) has been issued to foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the requirements of the LCA Mk1A configuration, which include an AESA radar, Electronic Warfare Suite, Electronic Support Measures Suite etc.
> 
> The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had clarified that at the time they were ‘not looking’ at the proposed LCA Mk2 with the more powerful GE F414 engine, which is still to be developed.
> 
> The navy’s requirements demand an LCA powered by this same engine and it has been considering whether to fund the development of the Mk2 in its own since October. The existing naval prototype of the LCA is based on the existing Mk1 design. The development of the naval version has focused on ‘aerodynamic enhancements to improve low speed performance for carrier operation, addition of arrestor hook for deck recovery, need for a stronger undercarriage and cockpit redesign for naval operations’, according to the official Tejas LCA website.
> 
> According to naval sources, the naval LCA is increasingly likely to now be restricted to the role of a technology demonstrator, although there has been some discussion of a possible role as a front line fighter trainer.
> 
> The navy has also set up a test flying team at INS Hansa for trials, not only on the naval Tejas LCA, but all other naval aviation platforms and systems. The navy began arrested recovery trials recently. These trials include high sink rate approaches, touch-and-goes, full stops, and then finally arrested recovery ashore.
> 
> *INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER-2 (IAC-2)*
> With the MiG-29K aircraft based on the INS Vikramaditya, and further destined for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 (IAC-1), INS Vikrant, attention is shifting to the air wing requirement of the second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, IAC-2.
> 
> According to sources in naval aviation, the navy has virtually decided on a design that includes nuclear propulsion, CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) operation and EMALS (Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System) for the proposed 65,000 ton carrier, although there is some dispute as to whether the expected tempo of operations is such as wouldn’t be better and more economically served with a steam catapult.
> 
> The reason for the selection of a CATOBAR aircraft carrier is that aircraft CATOBAR-launched aircraft can launch with heavier loads which translates to increased range and carriage of weapons and sensors. This is also the reason the MiG-29K is not under consideration for the IAC-2, since it is a Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR)-capable aircraft.
> 
> Sources said that the air wing of IAC-2 will comprise a total of around 65 aircraft, including 25-30 fighter aircraft. The rest will consist of helicopters and Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft.
> 
> *FIGHTERS FOR IAC-2*
> In the long term, the navy will focus on the development of a naval Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), but in the nearer term, the navy will be looking at acquiring CATOBAR-capable fighter aircraft for IAC-2. Only three contemporary aircraft are capable of such operations today – the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale M and the Lockheed Martin F-35C.
> 
> And although the Government of India is currently negotiating for 36 Rafale aircraft for the IAF, Boeing and the U.S. Government have offered to set up an assembly line for the twin-engine F/A-18 in India.
> 
> But an Indian Navy order for Super Hornets could well depend on the existence of an Indian assembly line because of timelines. Boeing has orders to keep its assembly line going till 2019-2020. An Indian Navy order to equip IAC-2 is unlikely to materialize before the middle of the 2020s, in which case, the only way for the navy to order Super Hornets would be if an assembly line were running in India, for the IAF.
> 
> Sweden’s Saab has also offered to set up an assembly line for their single-engine Gripen in India. And although they have circulated the idea of a CATOBAR-capable naval Sea Gripen variant, it remains a concept at this stage.
> 
> Both the F/A-18 and the Gripen are powered by the same GE F414 engine.
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/naval-lca-face-reckoning-as-navy-mulls-catobar-fighters



Now this is called the TRUE Great Defence Reporting and what a great Author Saurabh Joshi a journalist based in New Delhi, India who has worked in print, television as well as internet news media. Besides defense and strategy, his past assignments have ranged from reporting terror strikes to elections. He has studied journalism and law at the University of Delhi. 

Lets check his contribution with the Pen.

http://www.stratpost.com/navy-to-review-lca

*19 Oct 2015*
*Naval sources* told _StratPost_ that with the IAF interest in the development of the Mk2 now appearing uncertain, the navy would have to undertake a process to determine if they can continue to fund development of the model on their own, keeping in mind ‘already sunk costs’, their requirement number and the expectation that the model would not be ready before 2024 as well as the imperative of indigenization.

But there would never be the name of the so called NAVAL SOURCE.

Now Reporting on SAAB

*12 Feb 2016*

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-to-partner-kalyani-on-vshorad-srsam-production

*21 Feb 2016*

http://www.stratpost.com/video-saab-swordfish-mpa-at-the-singapore-airshow-2016


*21 Feb 2016*

http://www.stratpost.com/video-saabs-rbs70-ng-at-the-singapore-airshow-2016

*12 march 2016*

http://www.stratpost.com/iaf-admits-unprepared-for-2-front-defense

Then on *April 19* was the Beauty

http://www.stratpost.com/race-sell-fighters-india

He mentioned three contendor -- F-16, F-18, and Gripen, first praising F-16 to give the best advantage but mentioned that it is with the PAF, then very Cleaverly post the statement of Saab’s India head, Jan Widerström laid out the offer, saying:

*We’re not offering a product. We’re offering a long-term aerospace capability for the next hundred years to India. And that aerospace capability I hope will play a major role in supporting India in developing the next generation fighters for the future. *

Then mentioned that since Indian Navy is not interested in LCA MK-2, but SAAB have the concept of SEA Gripen. (In reality, SAAB don't have an experience in the Carrier based fighter plane, nor have any Carrier)


*On 10th June*

http://www.stratpost.com/iaf-chief-flies-gripen

Offcource, the IAF Chief himself goes to Sweden to talk about the Gripen Sale to India.

With enough material on *10 june *two more article

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-lays-gripen-make-india-plan

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch

Cutting Edge GaN based Aesa Tech, which they want to Co develop with the India -- 5 year atleast for the first Prototype, means why wasting time and money on Uttam.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I want every one to combine all the article written by a single author, and check the direction of wind which way it is flowing, and what is the Source of the Wind.


1. SAAB is threatened with the MK-2 version of the LCA. Trying too hard to kill the project.

2. Looks as if they are dying for Indian market.
​





3. Posted the Parikar Statements 


_In April 2015, he said, “A replacement (for the MiG-21) could be the LCA Tejas or another – I’ll not call it low end – but a single engine lighter aircraft. Tejas is a good aircraft but it has its limitations.”

And last February, he said, “We might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don’t commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also.”

There could well be two new assembly lines set up in India. For both single-engine and twin-engine aircraft._

*Lets see how the Words are Twisted. *

First statement was given for the question asked, why India is pitching for Rafale, when Two or three LCA Tejas could be bought for that Money. The Parikar said, that LCA is a world class 4th Gen. aircraft (That's why he is not calling it low end) but it has certain limitation such as Range, Weapon Load etc, Why this statement is posted in the Article, is because to show that LCA have limitation, thus looking for the replacement with F-16, or F-18 or Mighty Gripen.

Second statement for Make in India, that we might select few aircraft to make in India, but there will be atleast one -- And that One is Combat Hawk -- with first flight sheduled on 2017. Ok now for the second, and the third he didn't mentioned any name but added May be, means there would talks with different OEM but it could be any aircraft -- fixed wing, comercial line, transport aircraft, or Hellicopter too. And Make in India, do not naturally means it will serve India Defence, rather the Production line in India, because to build the India into AERO space hum is the main objective of the MII. Even US can transfer C-170 or C-17 line to India.


Third Statement states the two new assembly lines setup in India for both single and twin engine aircraft -- and those are LCA tejas MK-1 which needed seperate assembly line to fullfill the IAF order quickly, and the twin engine aircraft is Rafale, which will be setup by the OEM Dassault with the Pvt Indian company.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Revealed: The LCA Tejas That The IAF Has Chosen*
Shiv AroorJun 27 2016 12 25 pm


















India’s home-built Tejas light fighter will finally be formally in squadron service with its primary customer, the Indian Air Force, starting Friday. *On July 1*, the Indian Air Force’s is all set to induct a pair of series production airframes of the Tejas Mk.1 at a planned event there’s a conspicuous lack of noise about. Sure, the number of aircraft being inducted will be a tenth it takes to call itself a real squadron. And sure, the Tejas won’t be zipping off on combat air patrol or air defence duties immediately. But the significance of July 1 has perhaps already been lost in the turbulence of both the programme, as well as the way it has by default been regarded.

In October last year, your site had advocated that the LCA Tejas needs to see service as quickly as possible. That, in a sense, is what will be beginning to happen this Friday. But as you’ve probably heard already, it isn’t the Mk.1 type of the Tejas that has the IAF all lit up, but a configuration it agreed on last year designated the Mk.1A that’ll form the true Tejas backbone in service — 80 aircraft, with the possibility of 40 more have been ordered. In the tumult of operational clearance points and timelines, not very much has been reported on the Mk.1A itself and why the IAF has its sights set on the type, and what has been reported is mostly broad.

The known updates are clear. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) — likely in-house kit from the DRDO’s DARE laboratory — an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod to enhance survivability and an AESA Radar, both of which the Tejas programme is scouting international suppliers for. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles. *The Tejas has so far fired Vympel R-73 CCMs and a Derby BVR missile. It’ll need to prove itself using the R-77, Python-5 and DRDO Astra too. Those, Livefist learns, are on track.*

The meat of the Mk.1A will be a slew of major improvements in the LCA’s squadron-level maintainability contours. It is difficult to overstate just how much importance the IAF has placed on ramped up no-nonsense maintainability, more than a milestone away from the admittedly unwieldy maintenance architecture built into the Mk.1. On maintainability alone, the Tejas Mk.1A will have the 43 improvements out of 57 planned on the bigger, more powerful Tejas Mk.2:


*Panel interchangeability*: In the prototype stage, composite panels were built and matched to specific airframes. For the Mk.1A, tooling will be built up and panels moulded lending themselves to easy interchangeability between airframes, plus spares. The IAF won’t deal with a platform that doesn’t allow at least this level of squadron-level maintainability, so this is priority.
*Quick access*: Several airframe panels that required daily servicing have a large number of screws that need to be removed — a time consuming affair that eats into the platform’s turnaround time. These will be replaced on the Mk.1A by quick release fasteners making it easier and faster for maintainers access, considerably bringing down time required to service aircraft. Importantly, quick release fasteners will remain with the panel and therefore minimise FOD chances.
*Gromets in composite panels: *When fasteners are regularly used for removal and installation, there is a possibility of damage and widening of holes. Mk.1A panels will have to stop this.
*LRU positions:* A number of LRUs will be repositioned for better access. Current configurations make it nuisance to access frequently used LRUs.
*Additional aids*: The Mk.1A package will contain ground handling aids and testers to enable speedier turnaround of aircraft
But what about the Tejas Mk.2? The planned up-engined, beefed up Tejas variant has hit a bit of a vacuum now, with the IAF all but pronouncing that it won’t be pursuing the type. A contest awarded to GE for the the F414-GE-INS6 turbofan engine hasn’t translated into a contract yet. But the Mk.2 programme is still very much on. A top official told Livefist, “_As far as ADA and HAL are concerned, we are progressing design and development of Mk.2 as it has been approved by the Govt. There are benefits in continuing with it_.”






Improvements planned on the Tejas Mk.2, apart from the more powerful engine and attendant expansion of op envelope, include new sensors, new indigenous actuators, and a new indigenous avionics architecture. *The variant will also involve the removal of 250 kg in ballast weight, a further half ton weight reduction through revised design factors, performance improvements by “aerodynamic refinements of geometry”, an internal electronic warfare suite (incorporate in the Mk.1A plan), a brand new suite of indigenous avionics systems currently under development, a new digital flight control computer, OBOGS for mission endurance. *Crucially, the Mk.2 will also sport an additional LP bleed port from the engine, a safety feature to ensure crucial backup for flight-critical Bleed Air Shut Off Valve (BASOV) failure for fuel tank pressurisation. In addition, the type will get fuel system improvements, NVG compatible external lighting with LEDs.


http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016.../UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.436743/#ixzz4ClnMV8X4

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## Ankit Kumar

zebra7 said:


> Now this is called the TRUE Great Defence Reporting and what a great Author Saurabh Joshi a journalist based in New Delhi, India who has worked in print, television as well as internet news media. Besides defense and strategy, his past assignments have ranged from reporting terror strikes to elections. He has studied journalism and law at the University of Delhi.
> 
> Lets check his contribution with the Pen.
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/navy-to-review-lca
> 
> *19 Oct 2015*
> *Naval sources* told _StratPost_ that with the IAF interest in the development of the Mk2 now appearing uncertain, the navy would have to undertake a process to determine if they can continue to fund development of the model on their own, keeping in mind ‘already sunk costs’, their requirement number and the expectation that the model would not be ready before 2024 as well as the imperative of indigenization.
> 
> But there would never be the name of the so called NAVAL SOURCE.
> 
> Now Reporting on SAAB
> 
> *12 Feb 2016*
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/saab-to-partner-kalyani-on-vshorad-srsam-production
> 
> *21 Feb 2016*
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/video-saab-swordfish-mpa-at-the-singapore-airshow-2016
> 
> 
> *21 Feb 2016*
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/video-saabs-rbs70-ng-at-the-singapore-airshow-2016
> 
> *12 march 2016*
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/iaf-admits-unprepared-for-2-front-defense
> 
> Then on *April 19* was the Beauty
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/race-sell-fighters-india
> 
> He mentioned three contendor -- F-16, F-18, and Gripen, first praising F-16 to give the best advantage but mentioned that it is with the PAF, then very Cleaverly post the statement of Saab’s India head, Jan Widerström laid out the offer, saying:
> 
> *We’re not offering a product. We’re offering a long-term aerospace capability for the next hundred years to India. And that aerospace capability I hope will play a major role in supporting India in developing the next generation fighters for the future. *
> 
> Then mentioned that since Indian Navy is not interested in LCA MK-2, but SAAB have the concept of SEA Gripen. (In reality, SAAB don't have an experience in the Carrier based fighter plane, nor have any Carrier)
> 
> 
> *On 10th June*
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/iaf-chief-flies-gripen
> 
> Offcource, the IAF Chief himself goes to Sweden to talk about the Gripen Sale to India.
> 
> With enough material on *10 june *two more article
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/saab-lays-gripen-make-india-plan
> 
> http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch
> 
> Cutting Edge GaN based Aesa Tech, which they want to Co develop with the India -- 5 year atleast for the first Prototype, means why wasting time and money on Uttam.
> 
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> 
> I want every one to combine all the article written by a single author, and check the direction of wind which way it is flowing, and what is the Source of the Wind.
> 
> 
> 1. SAAB is threatened with the MK-2 version of the LCA. Trying too hard to kill the project.
> 
> 2. Looks as if they are dying for Indian market.
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Posted the Parikar Statements
> 
> 
> _In April 2015, he said, “A replacement (for the MiG-21) could be the LCA Tejas or another – I’ll not call it low end – but a single engine lighter aircraft. Tejas is a good aircraft but it has its limitations.”
> 
> And last February, he said, “We might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don’t commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also.”
> 
> There could well be two new assembly lines set up in India. For both single-engine and twin-engine aircraft._
> 
> *Lets see how the Words are Twisted. *
> 
> First statement was given for the question asked, why India is pitching for Rafale, when Two or three LCA Tejas could be bought for that Money. The Parikar said, that LCA is a world class 4th Gen. aircraft (That's why he is not calling it low end) but it has certain limitation such as Range, Weapon Load etc, Why this statement is posted in the Article, is because to show that LCA have limitation, thus looking for the replacement with F-16, or F-18 or Mighty Gripen.
> 
> Second statement for Make in India, that we might select few aircraft to make in India, but there will be atleast one -- And that One is Combat Hawk -- with first flight sheduled on 2017. Ok now for the second, and the third he didn't mentioned any name but added May be, means there would talks with different OEM but it could be any aircraft -- fixed wing, comercial line, transport aircraft, or Hellicopter too. And Make in India, do not naturally means it will serve India Defence, rather the Production line in India, because to build the India into AERO space hum is the main objective of the MII. Even US can transfer C-170 or C-17 line to India.
> 
> 
> Third Statement states the two new assembly lines setup in India for both single and twin engine aircraft -- and those are LCA tejas MK-1 which needed seperate assembly line to fullfill the IAF order quickly, and the twin engine aircraft is Rafale, which will be setup by the OEM Dassault with the Pvt Indian company.



Get this man some Gulab Jamuns. 

Exactly what is happening. Thanks for putting this in simple words. 

How come a company which manufactures a system with TOT/Licence / off the self purchase from 3rd parties offer TOT and aerospace solution ? At the moment they have got the Brazil deal to chant about, I would say just wait for the regime change there. Things will be clear... 

By no way one can sell an advanced version of a product cheaper than its predecessor.

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## Sri

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Revealed: The LCA Tejas That The IAF Has Chosen*
> Shiv AroorJun 27 2016 12 25 pm
> 
> 
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> 
> India’s home-built Tejas light fighter will finally be formally in squadron service with its primary customer, the Indian Air Force, starting Friday. *On July 1*, the Indian Air Force’s is all set to induct a pair of series production airframes of the Tejas Mk.1 at a planned event there’s a conspicuous lack of noise about. Sure, the number of aircraft being inducted will be a tenth it takes to call itself a real squadron. And sure, the Tejas won’t be zipping off on combat air patrol or air defence duties immediately. But the significance of July 1 has perhaps already been lost in the turbulence of both the programme, as well as the way it has by default been regarded.
> 
> In October last year, your site had advocated that the LCA Tejas needs to see service as quickly as possible. That, in a sense, is what will be beginning to happen this Friday. But as you’ve probably heard already, it isn’t the Mk.1 type of the Tejas that has the IAF all lit up, but a configuration it agreed on last year designated the Mk.1A that’ll form the true Tejas backbone in service — 80 aircraft, with the possibility of 40 more have been ordered. In the tumult of operational clearance points and timelines, not very much has been reported on the Mk.1A itself and why the IAF has its sights set on the type, and what has been reported is mostly broad.
> 
> The known updates are clear. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) — likely in-house kit from the DRDO’s DARE laboratory — an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod to enhance survivability and an AESA Radar, both of which the Tejas programme is scouting international suppliers for. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles. *The Tejas has so far fired Vympel R-73 CCMs and a Derby BVR missile. It’ll need to prove itself using the R-77, Python-5 and DRDO Astra too. Those, Livefist learns, are on track.*
> 
> The meat of the Mk.1A will be a slew of major improvements in the LCA’s squadron-level maintainability contours. It is difficult to overstate just how much importance the IAF has placed on ramped up no-nonsense maintainability, more than a milestone away from the admittedly unwieldy maintenance architecture built into the Mk.1. On maintainability alone, the Tejas Mk.1A will have the 43 improvements out of 57 planned on the bigger, more powerful Tejas Mk.2:
> 
> 
> *Panel interchangeability*: In the prototype stage, composite panels were built and matched to specific airframes. For the Mk.1A, tooling will be built up and panels moulded lending themselves to easy interchangeability between airframes, plus spares. The IAF won’t deal with a platform that doesn’t allow at least this level of squadron-level maintainability, so this is priority.
> *Quick access*: Several airframe panels that required daily servicing have a large number of screws that need to be removed — a time consuming affair that eats into the platform’s turnaround time. These will be replaced on the Mk.1A by quick release fasteners making it easier and faster for maintainers access, considerably bringing down time required to service aircraft. Importantly, quick release fasteners will remain with the panel and therefore minimise FOD chances.
> *Gromets in composite panels: *When fasteners are regularly used for removal and installation, there is a possibility of damage and widening of holes. Mk.1A panels will have to stop this.
> *LRU positions:* A number of LRUs will be repositioned for better access. Current configurations make it nuisance to access frequently used LRUs.
> *Additional aids*: The Mk.1A package will contain ground handling aids and testers to enable speedier turnaround of aircraft
> But what about the Tejas Mk.2? The planned up-engined, beefed up Tejas variant has hit a bit of a vacuum now, with the IAF all but pronouncing that it won’t be pursuing the type. A contest awarded to GE for the the F414-GE-INS6 turbofan engine hasn’t translated into a contract yet. But the Mk.2 programme is still very much on. A top official told Livefist, “_As far as ADA and HAL are concerned, we are progressing design and development of Mk.2 as it has been approved by the Govt. There are benefits in continuing with it_.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Improvements planned on the Tejas Mk.2, apart from the more powerful engine and attendant expansion of op envelope, include new sensors, new indigenous actuators, and a new indigenous avionics architecture. *The variant will also involve the removal of 250 kg in ballast weight, a further half ton weight reduction through revised design factors, performance improvements by “aerodynamic refinements of geometry”, an internal electronic warfare suite (incorporate in the Mk.1A plan), a brand new suite of indigenous avionics systems currently under development, a new digital flight control computer, OBOGS for mission endurance. *Crucially, the Mk.2 will also sport an additional LP bleed port from the engine, a safety feature to ensure crucial backup for flight-critical Bleed Air Shut Off Valve (BASOV) failure for fuel tank pressurisation. In addition, the type will get fuel system improvements, NVG compatible external lighting with LEDs.
> 
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.436743/#ixzz4ClnMV8X4



@PARIKRAMA 

Thanks for the article but there is no new information mentioned in the article like
1. Whether the Base of MK1a will be based on Naval MK1 ( As Prasun has mentioned)
2. Updates on the design refinement for drag reduction?
3. Weight reduction?
4. Its mentioned by HAL chief that MK1a will have improved 2052?
5. currently only older derby is integrated and not I-Derby ER as the current radar does not support the new missile's range. So does the I-Derby ER still getting integrated?

Please let us know if your source has any info on these.

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## fsayed

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...-combat-role-by-2017/articleshow/52941653.cms

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force plans to put much-delayed Tejas in combat role by next year after raising in July the first squadron of the indigenous Light Combat Aircrat which it counts "superior" to Pakistan's JF 17 fighters. 

State-run HAL will hand over the first two Tejas aircraft to IAF on July 1 which will make up the 'Flying Daggers' 45, the name of the first squadron of the LCA which will be based in Bangalore for the first two years before being moved to Sulur in Tamil Nadu. 

The idea is to have a total of six aircraft this financial year and about eight in the next. Tejas will feature in combat plan of the IAF next year and will be deployed in forward bases also, IAF sources said. 

They asserted that Tejas, which still has at least 19, mostly related to maintenance and easier operations, of the 43 deficiencies that the force had highlighted earlier, is "one of the exceptional single-engine fighter aircraft in the world". 

Asked how the aircraft fared in comparison to JF 17, jointly developed and built by Pakistan and China, the IAF said it was "better". 

"It is a better one since it is mostly made of composite which makes it light and very agile. It also comes with smart ammunitions and bombs which help it to hit targets in a precise manner," a source said. 

Sources also said that Tejas will replace the MiG 21s and will be used for air-to-air fight and ground attack and could also be a compliment to bigger fighter planes such as Su 30 MKI. 

All squadrons of Tejas will be made up of 20 planes in total, including four in reserve. As per the plan, while 20 would be inducted under the "Initial Operational Clearance", another 20 will be inducted later with Beyond Visual Range Missile (BVR) and some other features. 

The IAF plans to induct over 80 aircraft with better specifications known as Tejas 1A. 

The upgraded version of Tejas, with Active Electrically Scanned Array Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare Suite, mid-air refuelling capacity and advanced beyond the vision range missiles, will cost between Rs 275 crore and Rs 300 crore. 

While the idea to have an indigenous fighter aircraft was conceptualised in 1970s, the actual work started only in the 80s and the first flight took place in January 2001. 

The IAF sources said that Tejas is also equipped with helmet-mounted display and fly-by-wire, a semi-automatic and computer-regulated system for controlling the flight of an aircraft or spacecraft which makes it a 4.5 generation plane. 

Meanwhile, sources said the LCA will not be flown by India's first women fighter pilots as only experienced pilots will be flying them initially. 

IAF sources stressed that beyond visual range missiles were a must for the Final Operational Clearance version of Tejas. 

They admitted that another requirement - mid air refuelling capability - is likely to happen only in the Tejas I A version which they hoped will come out in 2019. 

The sources maintained that Tejas will be a shot in the arm for the IAF which has seen its strength dwindling because of phasing out of old planes. 

The IAF currently flies with 33 squadrons as against the sanctioned strength of 42. 

Tejas is designed to carry a veritable plethora of air-to-air, air-to-surface, precision guided and standoff weaponry. 

In the air-to-air arena, Tejas carries long-range beyond visual range weapons, with highly agile high off-boresight missiles to tackle any close combat threat. 

A wide variety of air-to-ground munitions and an extremely accurate navigation and attack system allow it to prosecute surface targets over land or at sea with unparalleled accuracy, giving Tejas a true multi/swing role capability.

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## fsayed

Take a look at @writetake's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/747431943340335105
Take a look at @writetake's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/747430534461022208
Take a look at @writetake's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/747425027847446529
Take a look at @writetake's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/747423955804291072

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## GORKHALI



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## Ankit Kumar

If we have 6 LCA before the next FY. Really HAL would have done a huge and tremendous job.

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## cerberus

Ankit Kumar said:


> If we have 6 LCA before the next FY. Really HAL would have done a huge and tremendous job.


If they can produce Sukhoi-30 at rate of 12, per annum which still based on 20% foreign supply 
LCA is a small game 
But ,they can surely make LCA in shortspan it's depend on how fast GE deliver there engines

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## Kraitcorp



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## Terminator

BENGALURU: Indian Air Force will raise the first squadron of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the induction of two aircraft into the force in Bengaluru on Friday.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will hand over the first two Tejas aircraft to the Air Force which will make up the 'Flying Daggers' 45, the name of the first squadron of the LCA.

The LCA squadron induction ceremony will be held at the Aircraft System Testing Establishment in the presence of Air Marshal Jasbir Walia, Air Officer Commanding-in Chief, Southern Air Command, officials said.

The aircraft are likely to perform a sortie during the induction ceremony.

The squadron will be based in Bengaluru for the first two years before being moved to Sulur in Tamil Nadu.
Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, who on May 17 took his maiden flight in Tejas, had termed the aircraft as "good" for induction .

Air Force has said the idea is to have a total of six aircraft this financial year and about eight in the next.
Tejas will feature in combat plan of the IAF next year and will be deployed in forward bases also, it has said.

Stating that LCA squadron should be formed by July, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had earlier this month said, "Next year I think two MiG-21 squadrons are being decommissioned; this will go into initially replacing them."

LCAs are better than the MiGs which are old and their parts are difficult to get, he had said.

All squadrons of Tejas will have 20 planes in total, including four in reserve.

As per the plan, while 20 would be inducted under the "Initial Operational Clearance", another 20 will be inducted later with Beyond Visual Range Missile (BVR) and some other features.
IAF plans to induct over 80 aircraft with better specifications known as Tejas 1A.
The upgraded version of Tejas, with Active Electrically Scanned Array Radar, Unified Electronic Warfare Suite, mid-air refuelling capacity and advanced beyond the vision range missiles, will cost between Rs 275 crore and Rs 300 crore.
While the idea to have an indigenous fighter aircraft was conceptualised in 1970s, actual work started on the aircraft only in the 1980s and the first flight took place in January 2001.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-Air-Force-on-Friday/articleshow/52992473.cms




Welcome on board Tejas Sir!!

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## Manas

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/time...raft-its-due-1426564?pfrom=home-lateststories

New Delhi: 
It's been almost every Air Chief's favourite whipping boy - an Indian-built fighter jet delayed so inordinately that it came to be seen as a promise that would never be kept.

But three decades after the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft went into development, there is a grudging acceptance that the fighter which will be officially inducted into the Air Force tomorrow in Bengaluru is, in many ways, world-class.

While the delay in delivery cannot be justified, there have been fierce debates on why that happened. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics or HAL, which is the lead player in the Tejas project, says the air force kept shifting the goal post on what exactly it wanted from the jet. The manufacturer also says it was hit by sanctions imposed by the US after the Pokhran nuclear test in 1998, which placed crucial technology out of reach.

The Air Force, for its part, has insisted there are better options available in the world market, jets built by manufacturers who have been in the business of military aviation for decades. The Tejas, they have argued in the past, will be obsolete by the time it enters Air Force squadron service.

Except it isn't. Not in the least.

Equipped with a modern Israeli multi-mode radar, the Elta 2032, state-of-the-art Derby air-to-air missiles to attack enemy jets, and modern laser designator and targeting pods to hit ground targets, the Tejas is, in many ways, as capable as the French-built Mirage 2000, the aircraft used by HAL as its benchmark. Every pilot that has tested the jet has sworn by the Tejas's flight control system and the ease with which it manoeuvres. Not a single Tejas fighter has been lost to an accident during flight tests during 3,000 sorties.

Confronted by these facts, critics of the jet say the Tejas is not indigenous at all. They point out that the engine is American, its radar and weapons Israeli, its ejection seat British -all that in addition to several other imported systems and subsystems. HAL counters that leading Western designs like the French Rafale and the Swedish Gripen also have imported systems because it's simply too expensive and too time-consuming to develop components that have been perfected and are available for purchase.

So has the Tejas programme added to India's engineering and scientific knowledge? It has. The fly-by-wire system gives computer-controlled inputs to charter the flight of the aircraft - and it's completely Indian. To deal with enemy jets, the Mission Computer which processes data provided by sensors like the radar is Indian. In fact, the hardware and the software of the Mission Computer has been designed around an open architecture framework which means that it can be upgraded in the future. The jet itself is constructed using Indian-made carbon fibre composites which are light-weight and ultra-strong alternatives to metal. A host of general systems dealing with everything from fuel management to steering of the nose-wheel are all made in India. A key sensor, the Tarang Radar Warning Radar, which lets the pilot know of enemy aircraft or surface-to-air missiles in the vicinity of the Tejas, is also Indian.

Modern fighter aircraft, including the air force's top gun, the Sukhoi - 30, are notoriously unreliable and maintenance-heavy. Less than 60 per cent of Sukhoi fleet is available at any one time to conduct missions, a huge concern for the air force. HAL says the Tejas will be available more than 70 per cent of the time when called in for missions and are targeting a minimum of 80 per cent, far in excess of what the IAF is presently able to achieve with most of its other jets.

Tomorrow, when the Indian Air Force's 45 squadron, the "Flying Daggers", take ownership of their first fighters, the Tejas programme will have turned over to an all-new page. As a light fighter based on requirements that were last updated more than a decade ago , the Tejas will never be among the best fighters in the world. It will, however, provide the Indian Air Force far more than what they had initially wanted - a MiG-21 replacement.


In the Tejas, the air force has a modern fighter which will only get better through modifications and additions to its capabilities.

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## I M Sikander

Yet another thread on ever ending plus points of LCA =Late coming aircraft.

Bus Kar dae bhai.


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## Kinetic

Ranasikander said:


> Yet another thread on ever ending plus points of LCA =Late coming aircraft.
> 
> Bus Kar dae bhai.




Whats your problem? Its a good replacement for Mig-21 as light weight fighter.

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## SQ8

While these feel good articles are aplenty; they ignore the major issues that Tejas has which keep it from ever being what it was supposed to be and likely a failed program. That onus lies on the project management by both HAL in terms of those glaring ignorance of operational needs and the IAF for moving goalposts and purposely keeping the program delayed via it. 

Also merging these various articles to the main Tejas thread.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> they ignore the major issues that Tejas has which keep it from ever being what it was supposed to be and likely a failed program


The LCA was orginally intended to be a simple replacement for the MiG-21 to fulfil the air defence role, nothing more, nothing less. Now they are intergrating an AESA radar, ASPJ, IFR probe etc etc to go along with the advanced features already existing within the platform.

Not to mention they have gone so far as to create FOUR versions of the LCA and begun doing crazy things like this that it was clearly NEVER intended to be doing:
































And yet it is still claimed the project is a "failure"..........hilarious.



I have a lot of respect for you @Oscar sir but for anyone to make remarks such as these is beyond absurd.

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> The LCA was orginally intended to be a simple replacement for the MiG-21 to fulfil the air defence role, nothing more, nothing less. Now they are intergrating an AESA radar, ASPJ, IFR probe etc etc to go along with the advanced features already existing within the platform.
> 
> Not to mention they have gone so far as to create FOUR versions of the LCA and begun doing crazy things like this that it was clearly NEVER intended to be doing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet it is still claimed the project is a "failure"..........hilarious.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a lot of respect for you @Oscar sir but for anyone to make remarks such as these is beyond absurd.



Please read my posts carefully before jumping to copy pastes of pictures that mean zip to me and qualify as absurd jingoism. 
I mentioned that Tejas the platform has a good future, but Tejas or LCA the program to supply the IAF with a light fighter to replace the Mig-21 is a failure. 

Please have a look in this very thread on why the Tejas cannot even get basic maintenance routines done without extensive disassembly or as to all those capabilities that you keep mentioning are still "in progress" that I have been hearing about as long as I have been following the program. 

You can have a great idea on paper, but if you cannot manage that idea or agree to a cohesive implementation for it; then it is nothing more than a failure.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> *I mentioned that Tejas the platform has a good future, but Tejas or LCA the program to supply the IAF with a light fighter to replace the Mig-21* is a failure.


As of July 1 2016 this will be a reality.



Oscar said:


> Please have a look in this very thread on why the Tejas cannot even get basic maintenance routines done without extensive disassembly


As most new platforms that are not in series production and are yet to see widespread service, they will naturally be worked out in time. 



Oscar said:


> or as to all those capabilities that you keep mentioning are still "in progress" that I have been hearing about as long as I have been following the program.


Well there are definete timelines in place now and to be honest I don't know if what you say is entirely accurate s much of what I have mentioned was never part of the orginal MK.1 roadmap and have only been proposed under the Mk.1A which was pushed by the current GoI.

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> As of July 1 2016 this will be a reality.
> 
> 
> As most new platforms that are not in series production and are yet to see widespread service, they will naturally be worked out in time.
> 
> 
> Well there are definete timelines in place now and to be honest I don't know if what you say is entirely accurate s much of what I have mentioned was never part of the orginal MK.1 roadmap and have only been proposed under the Mk.1A which was pushed by the current GoI.


 What sort of reality? with 4 jets that require going back to HAL for anything beyond changing the tires and fluids?

Tejas is not a new platform is it? 4 Jan 2001.. that is OVER 15 YEARS to it putting some 4 jets into the hand of its main customer?

There were definite timelines in place years ago, yet the IAF keeps changing its goalposts and the project's supply chain cant seem to get even a Radome right. So regardless of who or what was to blame, it does not change the reality that is the Tejas program; failed in its objective to give the IAF a fighter to replace older airframes. 

All that you are providing so far are what if's and excuses which we are all already aware of very well. Reposting those does not help identify the core problem with the program; which is mismanagement and dishonesty in purpose by both the IAF and other vested interests.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> What sort of reality? with 4 jets that require going back to HAL for anything beyond changing the tires and fluids?


4 jets intially with a full strength SQN within 18 months, it remains to be seen what operational difficulties arise and if they do this is why the first SQN is intially based at HAL's airport before shifting to Sular from 2018 onwards.



Oscar said:


> Tejas is not a new platform is it? 4 Jan 2001.. that is OVER 15 YEARS to it putting some 4 jets into the hand of its main customer?


A weird metric sir, plenty of modern jets and military projects have taken just as long, if not longer, to enter operational service.



Oscar said:


> There were definite timelines in place years ago, yet the IAF keeps changing its goalposts and the project's supply chain cant seem to get even a Radome right. So regardless of who or what was to blame, it does not change the reality that is the Tejas program; failed in its objective to give the IAF a fighter to replace older airframes.
> 
> All that you are providing so far are what if's and excuses which we are all already aware of very well. Reposting those does not help identify the core problem with the program; which is mismanagement and dishonesty in purpose by both the IAF and other vested interests.


I'm not going to deny the project has failed to meet many of its orginal deadlines and the reasons for this are diverse and well known but I think it would be foolish to look at past failures and extrapolate future failure. Additionally, it would be equally foolish to ignore that under this new GoI there has been a change in the fortunes of the project and a tangible uptake in the project's output as it receives governmental support and just as importantly, scrutiny that it had been missing in the past. The timelines now in place are more justifiable and credible as a result, alas the proof will be in the pudding.

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## DesiGuy1403

Great achievement.
And Kudos to the current govt without whose initiative Tejas might have been scrapped.

Now is the time to build on this and hopefully Parrikar & Co are looking to do just that.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> 4 jets intially with a full strength SQN within 18 months, it remains to be seen what operational difficulties arise and if they do this is why the first SQN is intially based at HAL's airport before shifting to Sular from 2018 onwards.
> 
> 
> A weird metric sir, plenty of modern jets and military projects have taken just as long, if not longer, to enter operational service.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to deny the project has failed to meet many of its orginal deadlines and the reasons for this are diverse and well known but I think it would be foolish to look at past failures and extrapolate future failure. Additionally, it would be equally foolish to ignore that under this new GoI there has been a change in the fortunes of the project and a tangible uptake in the project's output as it receives governmental support and just as importantly, scrutiny that it had been missing in the past. The timelines now in place are more justifiable and credible as a result, alas the proof will be in the pudding.



Again, you are telling me of what-if timelines on a project with a known track record of not delivering. Lets see after 18 months.

No modern military jet has taken 15 years to produce 4 prototypes that are restricted in both flight performance and operational capability. Even the F-35 with its massive revolutions in technology and well know project overruns and mismanagement has 60 examples in service and operational training. How many IAF pilots are Tejas qualified?

The rest again is discussing future developments, and the pudding will tell.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> No modern military jet has taken 15 years to produce 4 prototypes


18 prototypes since 2000.

I don't know why you think this SQN is going to be made up of prototypes. The SQN is being formed of SP (series production) a/c.



Oscar said:


> Even the F-35 with its massive revolutions in technology and well know project overruns and mismanagement has 60 examples in service and operational training.


Apples and oranges, the development of the LCA project is maybe $3BN, the F-35's is >$160BN (and still growing) and coming from the most advanced nation in the world with the most capable industrial base in human histroy. The LCA project has literally created an aerospace industry from scratch.



Oscar said:


> How many IAF pilots are Tejas qualified?


That is a question only the IAF or HAL can answer. 



Oscar said:


> The rest again is discussing future developments, and the pudding will tell.


Agreed.

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## Khafee

*ELM-2032 - Multimode Airborne Fire Control Radar*

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## Kraitcorp

Indian Air Force will raise the first squadron of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft Tejas with the induction of two aircraft into the force in Bengaluru today. HAL will hand over the first two Tejas aircraft to IAF which will make up the 'Flying Daggers' 45, the name of the first squadron of the LCA.

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## Ankit Kumar

Abingdonboy said:


> 18 prototypes since 2000.
> 
> I don't know why you think this SQN is going to be made up of prototypes. The SQN is being formed of SP (series production) a/c.
> 
> 
> Apples and oranges, the development of the LCA project is maybe $3BN, the F-35's is >$160BN (and still growing) and coming from the most advanced nation in the world with the most capable industrial base in human histroy. The LCA project has literally created an aerospace industry from scratch.
> 
> 
> That is a question only the IAF or HAL can answer.
> 
> 
> Agreed.



20 Tejas produced till now. 
Phase 2, and phase 3 combined cost is 1.49 Billion USD. The phase one is sub billion USD. 

Quite an achievement if we have started building fighter jets on this little drop of amount. Also while tackling problems from " No budget for the 50%of its development Time" to " No technical ability at the beginning. ". 

No nation can do this at this mere budget and through this many problems in a time frame less than us. a challenge.

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## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy

Indians have EVERY right to be HAPPY with the Progress of Tejas

Only we can understand how HARD and painful the journey has been

That is because we have done all the hard work ourselves ; faced setbacks and disappointments ; fallen down numerous times GOT up again but we DID not Quit 

Now there is NO looking back ; The future is going to be even better

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## SpArK

http://timesofindia.

BENGALURU: HAL Tejas , also known as the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), has been inducted into the [URL='http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Indian-Air-Force']Indian Air Force. Two of the single-engine multi-role fighter jets, pegged to be the world's smallest and lightest supersonic fighter, were handed over to the Air Force. They will be stationed in Bengaluru, as part of the first Tejassquadron called 'Flying Daggers'.

Friday marked the end of a 33-year-old wait for an indigenous fighter, but Tejas still has a lot of imported material in it, including its heart, a GE engine.

As TOI has reported earlier, the Flying Daggers squadron will have the SP-1 and SP-2 versions of Tejas. The squadron is expected to reach full strength by 2018-2020.Six more Tejas fighters are expected to be inducted into the squadron by the end of the current financial year.

Group Captain M Rangachari will be the first Commanding Officer of the Flying Daggers squadron. He will have seven officers under him initially, 42 air warriors and about 20 non-commissioned officers.

Dr Kota Harinarayana, termed the father of LCA, said decades of hard work and learning have finally paid off.


Air Marshal Jasbir Walia, Air Officer Commanding-in Chief of the Air Force's Southern Command and Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Baduria were also present on Friday, filling in for Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, who had flown in the Tejas last month and said the plane is fit for induction.




HAL is expected to deliver two more aircraft in the next few months. Sources in HALsaid that the third aircraft would be delivered by the end of the next month end. There is no confirmation on when the fourth will be delivered.

indiatimes.com/india/HAL-Tejas-LCA-inducted-into-Indian-Air-Force/articleshow/53001736.cms[/URL]

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## SpArK

*HAL Tejas supersonic fighter jets inducted into Indian Air Force*


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rce-6-things-to-know/articleshow/53001820.cms

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## Perpendicular

FINALLY

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## Dandpatta

The aircrafts to be inducted into the squadrons will have TEJAS splattered under the canopies? Hope not ! Tactical a/cs better do away with names of a/c.


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## chanikya

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has finally been inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) today. IAF has raised the first squadron of Tejas with the induction of two aircraft into the force and plans to put the LCA in combat role by 2017.

Two LCA Tejas have been handed over by HAL to "Flying Daggers" 45, the name of the first squadron of the LCA.

The induction comes at a time when IAF desperately needs replacement for its MiG 21s. IAF has a depleting fighter aircraft strength, and while Tejas has been designed for only light combat, it will nevertheless provide a much needed boost to the air force.

*ALSO ON MSN: Let's just toast the flight of the Tejas!*

Tejas is said to be the world's smallest lightweight, multi-role single engine tactical fighter aircraft. It is a single engined, light weight, highly agile, multi-role supersonic fighter.

The combat aircraft uses fourth generation technologies and has intentionally been made longitudinally unstable to enhance manoeuvrability. Tejas is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot.

*RECOMMENDED: Meet 'Made in India' Tejas*

Last month, IAF chief Arup Raha had his first sortie in the Tejas, after which he called it a "good aircraft for induction". "It is my first sortie in Tejas, it is a good aircraft for induction into IAF operations," Raha said.





Tejas LCA: Everything you need to know

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsi...air-forces-combat-power/ar-AAhPyEr?li=AAggbRNhttp://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsi...air-forces-combat-power/ar-AAhPyEr?li=AAggbRN

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## GURU DUTT

chanikya said:


> Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has finally been inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) today. IAF has raised the first squadron of Tejas with the induction of two aircraft into the force and plans to put the LCA in combat role by 2017.
> 
> Two LCA Tejas have been handed over by HAL to "Flying Daggers" 45, the name of the first squadron of the LCA.
> 
> The induction comes at a time when IAF desperately needs replacement for its MiG 21s. IAF has a depleting fighter aircraft strength, and while Tejas has been designed for only light combat, it will nevertheless provide a much needed boost to the air force.
> 
> *ALSO ON MSN: Let's just toast the flight of the Tejas!*
> 
> Tejas is said to be the world's smallest lightweight, multi-role single engine tactical fighter aircraft. It is a single engined, light weight, highly agile, multi-role supersonic fighter.
> 
> The combat aircraft uses fourth generation technologies and has intentionally been made longitudinally unstable to enhance manoeuvrability. Tejas is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot.
> 
> *RECOMMENDED: Meet 'Made in India' Tejas*
> 
> Last month, IAF chief Arup Raha had his first sortie in the Tejas, after which he called it a "good aircraft for induction". "It is my first sortie in Tejas, it is a good aircraft for induction into IAF operations," Raha said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas LCA: Everything you need to know
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsi...air-forces-combat-power/ar-AAhPyEr?li=AAggbRNhttp://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsi...air-forces-combat-power/ar-AAhPyEr?li=AAggbRN


now the work should be focused on giving it a weight reduction better aerodynamic profile lesser drag and of course a new air induction system like that on F35 and an AESA(GaN based) radar and combined EW-ECM and avionics suite

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## Devil Soul

*India's first home-built fighter jet enters service after 33 years*
REUTERS — PUBLISHED 6 MINUTES AGO
WHATSAPP
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PRINT


NEW DELHI: India's first locally-built combat aircraft officially took to the skies on Friday, 33 years after it was cleared for development, marking a long-held goal of cutting expensive imports to build a domestic defence-industrial base.

India's fighter aircraft fleet, made up of a mix of Russian, British and French planes, is down to 33 squadrons as against the air force's requirement of 45 to face Pakistan and China.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has nudged the military to accept the first version of the "Tejas" Light Combat Aircraft to make up for the shortfall while a more powerful subsequent model is under development.

Indian Air Force officers broke coconuts and priests held multi-faith ceremonies to mark the induction of two planes in the southern city of Bengaluru. Later, the aircraft took off in the colours of the air force as fire tenders sprayed water on he tarmac in a military ritual.

"Moment of national pride. Indigenously developed Tejas fighter jet inducted into Air Force. Tejas will take our air strength to new heights," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who has led the drive for indigenisation, said in a Twitter post.

Early this month China said it is still testing its first stealth fighter, the J-20, but it would enter service soon.

The single-seat Indian fighter is considered superior to counterparts like the JF-17 aircraft jointly built by China and Pakistan.

Tejas has had no accident in 3,000 hours of flying and its use of composites helps lower its radar signature, making it harder to detect early, air force officials said.

"The LCA is as good as any in the world in its class," said retired Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur now a fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi.

But the challenge for state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is making the aircraft, will be to stick to the production schedule as the air force seeks to arrest the decline in the number of planes it can deploy, he said.

HAL only has the capacity to produce four Tejas planes a year, a government-appointed audit committee said in a report last year.

The plan is to increase production capacity to eight, a defence ministry official said on Friday.

India is separately negotiating for the purchase of 36 top end Rafale fighter planes from France's Dassault Aviation, a scaled-back deal that has been hanging fire since 2012.


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## chanikya

Yup bro! as IAF also started to follow the way of IN, indeed it will be done and even with this step of IAF, HAL with get confidence and boost its capabilities.

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## Tipu7

Good luck with that plane ....... 
Hope to see Mk1A ready by 2019 ....

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## thesolar65

But in NDTV news it showed three Tejas??
@GURU DUTT

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## chanikya

thesolar65 said:


> But in NDTV news it showed three Tejas??
> @GURU DUTT



Don't know bro, I am in office with no TV  will check the stream if possible.

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## GuardianRED

Here it is


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748723585485799424
A 3rd Aircraft to be inducted next month i think - Note : S.No LA-5003

Still anyone have a Clear Specs on this Mk1? There are so many reports flooded by the media that its confusing

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## Ryuzaki

How many Tejas can be produced in an year?

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## cerberus

Ryuzaki said:


> How many Tejas can be produced in an year?



This year 4 next 8 in 2017 16 in 2018

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## Robinhood Pandey

RSS walas disguised as Air force officers breaking coconuts during Tejas Induction !!

Secular fabric of Air force is under attack now !!!

where is UN , USA , NATO ??

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## GuardianRED

Robinhood Pandey said:


> RSS walas disguised as Air force officers breaking coconuts during Tejas Induction !!
> 
> Secular fabric of Air force is under attack now !!!
> 
> where is UN , USA , NATO ??



First read your Post Carefully - "Break Coconuts prior to induction of Tejas aircraft into IAF in a MULTI RELIGIOUS PRAYER ceremony"

Second - what does UN, US and NATO got to do with it ?

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## Species

Robinhood Pandey said:


> RSS walas disguised as Air force officers breaking coconuts during Tejas Induction !!
> 
> Secular fabric of Air force is under attack now !!!
> 
> where is UN , USA , NATO ??



The pilots are looking nervous.


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## chanikya

Species said:


> The pilots are looking nervous.



Don't worry buddy, they are not used-to break coconuts and rituals, that's the reason,our Tejas have a great record when it comes to safety standards

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## kaykay

total 6 will be inducted but this year end

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## RepublicOk

Historic day for our Air Force... God speed to IAF!!!

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## egodoc222

GURU DUTT said:


> now the work should be focused on giving it a weight reduction better aerodynamic profile lesser drag and of course a new air induction system like that on F35 and an AESA(GaN based) radar and combined EW-ECM and avionics suite


You forgot DSI


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## GURU DUTT

egodoc222 said:


> You forgot DSI


well we cant have that tech our aviation industry is developed yet to have it

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## Robinhood Pandey

GuardianRED said:


> First read your Post Carefully - "Break Coconuts prior to induction of Tejas aircraft into IAF in a MULTI RELIGIOUS PRAYER ceremony"
> 
> Second - what does UN, US and NATO got to do with it ?



Sarcasm and proper sanitation facilities are luxuries for us Indians they said.

rightly said

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## ito

A truly a watershed development in Indian military history.

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## fsayed



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## Robinhood Pandey

3 planes ?

@PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Robinhood Pandey said:


> 3 planes ?
> 
> @PARIKRAMA



2 .

The extreme left one tail is green.. looks like an SP unit for testing.. just parked in open hangar

The inducted ones have full body same color..

see these pics













notice tail color same as whole body


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748731597461921793





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748739588143718402

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## PARIKRAMA

*Here's What This Fighter Pilot Said After A 10-Minute Solo Sortie On Tejas*
All India | Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: July 01, 2016 18:24 IST
 





On landing after a flawless flight demo, the olive green aircraft was greeted with a water salute as it taxied onto the base from the runway.

BENGALURU: 
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Tejas ahead of other fighters in the world, claimed Mr Rangachari.
He flew the supersonic fighter up to 1,500 feet altitude at 900 km speed.
Tejas is capable of flying with four-tonne payloads.

Flying the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) after its induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) was like being on top of the world, said Group Captain Madhav Rangachari on Friday.

"I felt like being on top of the world when flying the Tejas fighter. It's an honour and a privilege to pilot the inaugural flight of the LCA soon after its induction," Mr Rangachari told reporters after a 10-minute solo sortie under a cloudy sky and windy conditions.

The 40-year-old test pilot is the commanding officer of the IAF's 45 squadron nicknamed Flying Daggers. With 3,000 flying hours experience, Rangachari was part of the Mirage 2000 squadron before flying the multi-role Tejas since a year. 


Taking off from the IAF's Aircraft System Testing Establishment (ASTE) tarmac in the city's eastern suburb and adjacent to the defence airport of the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Rangachari flew the multi-role supersonic fighter up to 1,500 feet altitude at 900 km speed (450 knots) within visual range in the Bengaluru sky.

"I could do only horizontal profile and not vertical due to the cloudy sky. It's an excellent aircraft and generation ahead of other fighters in the world. Being the only of its kind (light combat), it's not comparable with other military aircraft," Mr Rangachari asserted.

Though the aircraft did not have weapons under its wings for the sortie, Rangachari said he had flown it with air-to-air missiles and laser-guided bombs during test flights and had verified its strike power.

"For flight demonstrations and aerobatics, we do not carry weapons, though Tejas is capable of flying with four-tonne payloads, including missiles and bombs and hitting targets accurately," Mr Rangachari claimed.

As the Tejas squadron will operate from Bengaluru for the next two years before moving to its designated air base at Sulur near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu, the air force will deploy more test pilots and technicians to fly them for final operational clearance and training.

"The squadron has six test pilots, 20 technicians to fly the LCA and more fighter pilots will join us, as we induct two more of them this year and three more next year when delivered by HAL," Mr Rangachari said.

On landing after a flawless flight demo, the olive green aircraft was greeted with a water salute as it taxied onto the base from the runway.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/flyi...of-the-world-1426973?pfrom=home-lateststories

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## nang2

GURU DUTT said:


> now the work should be focused on giving it a weight reduction better aerodynamic profile lesser drag and of course a new air induction system like that on F35 and an AESA(GaN based) radar and combined EW-ECM and avionics suite


One thing I didn't get. How come LCA needs weight reduction when it extensively uses composite? How light do you want it to be? Anyone cares to enlighten me? Thanks.


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## Robinhood Pandey

PARIKRAMA said:


> 2 .
> 
> The extreme left one tail is green.. looks like an SP unit for testing.. just parked in open hangar
> 
> The inducted ones have full body same color..
> 
> see these pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice tail color same as whole body
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748731597461921793
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748739588143718402



here is a different angle. 

it shows two tails without that paint

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## GuardianRED

Robinhood Pandey said:


> here is a different angle.
> 
> it shows two tails without that paint


Nice Catch 

Looks like a 2 Seater trainer

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## Kraitcorp

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> Indians have EVERY right to be HAPPY with the Progress of Tejas
> 
> Only we can understand how HARD and painful the journey has been
> 
> That is because we have done all the hard work ourselves ; faced setbacks and disappointments ; fallen down numerous times GOT up again but we DID not Quit
> 
> Now there is NO looking back ; The future is going to be even better


In short we are like the Stark's in Game of thrones. 




The platform with a historic No "01". From KH-2001 to LA-5001












The ceremonial welcome

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## proud_indian

C. D. Balaji Interview today on DD News

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> 2 .
> 
> The extreme left one tail is green.. looks like an SP unit for testing.. just parked in open hangar
> 
> The inducted ones have full body same color..
> 
> see these pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice tail color same as whole body
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748731597461921793
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748739588143718402





Robinhood Pandey said:


> here is a different angle.
> 
> it shows two tails without that paint



There are 4 LCA in that shelter:











2 single seaters were inducted into the IAF today, the other 2 (1 single seat, 1 twin seat) that can be seen in these pics will be offcially inducted into the IAF in a few weeks once they have been fully "shaken down" by the ASTE. It its these "to be inducted" LCA that still have unpainted tails/sections.



thesolar65 said:


> But in NDTV news it showed three Tejas??
> @GURU DUTT


4

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## Abingdonboy



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## Viny

Incredible India!!!

Hindu priest performing Puja...
Maulana sahab and Sikh guru in background participating in same. 
I take the man in black suit to be a pastor. 

What a religious harmony for something that is by product of scientific world.

It happens only in India....
Where these coconuts bursted/cracked on the plane

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## GuardianRED

Only Wished that they had put the "Flying Daggers" Insignia on the Aircraft


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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> Only Wished that they had put the "Flying Daggers" Insignia on the Aircraft


The IAF does not mark their fighters with SQN insignias (the IN does however).


------------------------

-------------------------


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## GORKHALI

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF does not mark their fighters with SQN insignias (the IN does hoseater.
> 
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> -------------------------


ok does that mean the other two yellow tail planes are Sp3 and Pv5 because what I can see is one is definetly PV5 double seater.


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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF does not mark their fighters with SQN insignias (the IN does however).
> 
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> -------------------------



They Used too Bro

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## Abingdonboy

GORKHALI said:


> ok does that mean the other two yellow tail planes are Sp3 and Pv5 because what I can see is one is definetly PV5 double seater.


Exactly right.

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## GuardianRED

GORKHALI said:


> ok does that mean the other two yellow tail planes are Sp3 and Pv5 because what I can see is one is definetly PV5 double seater.



Yes the Single Seat is SP3 with Serial No. LA-5003
The 2 Seater is maybe PV5 - Best guess

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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> They Used too Bro


Alas, no more brother:

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> Alas, no more brother:


LOL ... Well New Aircraft... Just Wished and Being Nostalgic

Any one has Info on Sq No. 45 , I do know that they are an old Sq. , but what were they previously flying?

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## PARIKRAMA

*Flying Tejas felt like being on top of the world, says pilot after a 10-minute solo sortie*
IANS | Jul 1, 2016, 05.42 PM IST
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Flying Tejas was like being on top of the world, said Group Captain Madhav Rangachari
It's an honour and a privilege to pilot: Rangachari
Rangachari flew the multi-role supersonic fighter up to 1,500 feet altitude at 900km speed




(Photo of Captain Madhav Rangachari via Twitter/ANI)
BENGALURU: Flying the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) after its induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) was like being on top of the world, said Group Captain Madhav Rangachari on Friday.

"I felt like being on top of the world when flying the Tejas fighter . It's an honour and a privilege to pilot the inaugural flight of the LCA soon after its induction," Rangachari told reporters after a 10-minute solo sortie under a cloudy sky and windy conditions.

The 40-year-old test pilot is the commanding officer of the IAF's 45 squadron nicknamed Flying Daggers. With 3,000 flying hours experience, Rangachari was part of the Mirage 2000 squadron before flying the multirole Tejas since a year.

Taking off from the IAF's Aircraft System Testing Establishment (ASTE) tarmac in the city's eastern suburb and adjacent to the defence airport of the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Rangachari flew the multi-role supersonic fighter up to 1,500 feet altitude at 900 km speed (450 knots) within visual range in the Bengaluru sky.

"I could do only horizontal profile and not vertical due to the cloudy sky. It's an excellent aircraft and generation ahead of other fighters in the world. Being the only of its kind (light combat), it's not comparable with other military aircraft," Rangachari asserted.






Though the aircraft did not have weapons under its wings for the sortie, Rangachari said he had flown it with air-to-air missiles and laser-guided bombs during test flights and had verified its strike power.

"For flight demonstrations and aerobatics, we do not carry weapons, though Tejas is capable of flying with four-tonne payloads, including missiles and bombs and hitting targets accurately," Rangachari claimed.
As the Tejas squadron will operate from Bengaluru for the next two years before moving to its designated air base at Sulur near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu, the air force will deploy more test pilots and technicians to fly them for final operational clearance and training.

"The squadron has six test pilots, 20 technicians to fly the LCA and more fighter pilots will join us, as we induct two more of them this year and three more next year when delivered by HAL," Rangachari said.
On landing after a flawless flight demo, the olive green aircraft was greeted with a water salute as it taxied onto the base from the runway

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...0-minute-solo-sortie/articleshow/53008187.cms



GuardianRED said:


> LOL ... Well New Aircraft... Just Wished and Being Nostalgic
> 
> Any one has Info on Sq No. 45 , I do know that they are an old Sq. , but what were they previously flying?



Originally Squadron 45 was consisting of De Havilland Vampires for Ground attack and Close Air Support






The photo of the Crest of No.45 Squadron shows a winged sword - as designed by Squadron Leader Grewal himself. The Crest was approved by the Heraldic Commitee on 16th September 1961





Sqn Ldr M S Grewal taking over as Squadron Commander of 45 Squadron, consisting of De Havilland Vampires






All the sixteen Vampires of No.45 Squadron on the ground before their historical 16-ac diamond formation





The 45 Squadron had 16 aircraft, it was a unique engineering feat to have all the aircraft fly worthy on a single day.

Once retired the no 45 was taken by Mig 21s in the timezone 1965-71 which were retired in 2002. These Migs most famous glory came in involment in Atlantique incident on 10 August 1999 when two MiG-21Bison from No.45 Squadron IAF intercepted and shot down Pakistani naval reconnaissance plane.

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## Grevion

So the era of homegrown fighters begains in India and the IAF.
Tejas will be a milestone in the history if Indian aviation.
Can anybody clarify the position of the FOC. Were these fighters inducted without the FOC. Or the whole concept of IOC and FOC has been discarded by the govt?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Since much is not known about its radar capabilities, I can only comment about its aerodynamic performance. To me it seems to be a lighter version of the Mirage 2000. High on drag, like all delta-winged aircraft. It's aspect ratio is the lowest ever in any jet fighter, to date. This translates into poor turning ability at low speeds due to high induced drag. Also, it means longer take-off and landing distances.
The F-404 engine is a very capable and reliable, though the IAF would be in a mess if it switched to the Kaveri that hasn't worked so far.
The JF-17 is an operational aircraft, and has a proven record. The pilots are quite happy with its performance.
Finally, as an aesthete, I find the Tejas ugly from ceetain aspects, especially the oversized servo actuator fairings on the underside of the wings.
Given a choice, I'd go for a JF-17 to fight a Tejas.


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## danger007

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Since much is not known about its radar capabilities, I can only comment about its aerodynamic performance. To me it seems to be a lighter version of the Mirage 2000. High on drag, like all delta-winged aircraft. It's aspect ratio is the lowest ever in any jet fighter, to date. This translates into poor turning ability at low speeds due to high induced drag. Also, it means longer take-off and landing distances.
> The F-404 engine is a very capable and reliable, though the IAF would be in a mess if it switched to the Kaveri that hasn't worked so far.
> The JF-17 is an operational aircraft, and has a proven record. The pilots are quite happy with its performance.
> Finally, as an aesthete, I find the Tejas ugly from ceetain aspects, especially the oversized servo actuator fairings on the underside of the wings.
> Given a choice, I'd go for a JF-17 to fight a Tejas.






I hope you keep jf 17 away from thread... nothing to do with..

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## pakdefender

If you get the ejection seat wrong ( too close to the canopy ) after 33 years of development then that is a huge cause of concern

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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> . It's aspect ratio is the lowest ever in any jet fighter, to date. This translates into poor turning ability at low speeds due to high induced drag. Also, it means longer take-off and landing distances.
> .










a low aspect-ratio wing will have a higher roll angular acceleration than one of high aspect ratio, because a high-aspect-ratio wing has a higher moment of inertia to overcome. In a steady roll, the longer wing gives a higher roll moment because of the longer moment arm of the aileron. Low aspect ratio wings are usually used on fighter aircraft, not only for the higher roll rates, but especially for longer chord and thinner airfoils involved in supersonic flight.


As far as take off and landing distance.











On aesthetics, just feel sorry for your taste.

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## waz

Congratulations India, a milestone in Indian aviation history. I'd say it's far more exciting than the never ending Rafale saga .

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## danger007

pakdefender said:


> If you get the ejection seat wrong ( too close to the canopy ) after 33 years of development then that is a huge cause of concern




@waz don't you see trolling here?? or do he got special privilege? n.

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## Star Wars

Does LCA still have any designation like F-16 or MIG


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## MilSpec

Star Wars said:


> Does LCA still have any designation like F-16 or MIG



I think only HAL aircraft get designations,eg: HF24, HPT36, HJT 16, HAOP 27, HUL26, HPT 32, HTT40, etc.

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## Abingdonboy

Star Wars said:


> Does LCA still have any designation like F-16 or MIG


Indian a/c tend be be given names like the Europeans (Typhoon, Tornado, Rafale, Hawk etc etc) so the LCA's is the Tejas. "Numbering" a/c is more of an American (and Russian) approach.

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## proud_indian



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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @acetophenol @proud_indian @hellfire @ito @fsayed @Ankit Kumar @SpArK @nair @MilSpec @Stephen Cohen @Agent_47 @scorpionx @dadeechi

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## fsayed

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @acetophenol @proud_indian @hellfire @ito @fsayed @Ankit Kumar @SpArK @nair @MilSpec @Stephen Cohen @Agent_47 @scorpionx @dadeechi


Aap ke muuh mei ghee shaqqar

Aaaameeeen

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## Pandemonium

tejas is by no means the best aircraft around , but its still a good start for indian aviation . it is imperative upon india to develop our aviation industry and this is the right step towards that . a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step .

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## Hellfire

Finally India has managed to get it's act together and the sense has prevailed. Instead of trying to make an equipment perfect without using it and changing the QR on whims, with the forced induction into an operational squadron there will be an actual interface between the user and the equipment and necessary evolution of the equipment as it is deployed and its various doctrines/procedures are formulated. 

It is highly imperative that the airforce gets full support from HAL/private players in now working together to evolve this aircraft into a truly effective piece of equipment. Initial steps and the seriousness being displayed by the present government seems to be a step in the right direction.

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## Kraitcorp

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @acetophenol @proud_indian @hellfire @ito @fsayed @Ankit Kumar @SpArK @nair @MilSpec @Stephen Cohen @Agent_47 @scorpionx @dadeechi




@dadeechi is confident F-16's are coming next soon...

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## SR-91

Viny said:


> Incredible India!!!
> 
> Hindu priest performing Puja...
> Maulana sahab and Sikh guru in background participating in same.
> I take the man in black suit to be a pastor.
> 
> What a religious harmony for something that is by product of scientific world.
> 
> It happens only in India....
> Where these coconuts bursted/cracked on the plane




And what is ur problem with it? It's part of Indian culture, isn't it? 
This is who we are. Don't like it, move out.



MilSpec said:


> View attachment 315205
> 
> 
> a low aspect-ratio wing will have a higher roll angular acceleration than one of high aspect ratio, because a high-aspect-ratio wing has a higher moment of inertia to overcome. In a steady roll, the longer wing gives a higher roll moment because of the longer moment arm of the aileron. Low aspect ratio wings are usually used on fighter aircraft, not only for the higher roll rates, but especially for longer chord and thinner airfoils involved in supersonic flight.
> 
> 
> As far as take off and landing distance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On aesthetics, just feel sorry for your taste.



Well said bro.

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## Dandpatta

Will all Tejas planes in the IAF will have the name TEJAS plastered under the cockpit canopy? I hope after these two inductions, rest of the planes will do away with the plane's name. @Abingdonboy @Joe Shearer comments please.


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## SR-91

Tejas Induction A Matter Of ‘Unparalleled Pride’, Says Prime Minister Narendra Modi

Prime Minister Narendra Modi today hailed the induction of indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas into the Air Force, terming it as a matter of “unparalleled pride and happiness” and a step which illustrates the skills and strengths of Indian scientists. “Induction of indigenously made Tejas fighter jet into the Air Force fills our hearts with unparalleled pride & happiness,” he tweeted. The first squadron of Tejas was inducted into IAF at Bengaluru earlier today, with two fighter planes joining the force, in a major milestone in the military aviation of the country. “I laud HAL & ADA on the induction of Tejas fighter jet. This illustrates our skills & strengths to enhance indigenous defence manufacturing,” PM Modi said in another tweet. State-run HAL handed over the first two Tejas aircraft to IAF, which makes up the first squadron named ‘Flying Daggers’, at a ceremony preceded by inter-faith prayers at the Aircraft System Testing Establishment. The commissioning of the India-made fighter planes comes more than three decades after LCA went into development. The aircraft was named “Tejas” (meaning radiance in Sanskrit) by Atal Bihari Vajpayee as Prime Minister. The squadron will be based in Bengaluru for the first two years before it is moved to Sulur in Tamil Nadu.

http://idrw.org/tejas-induction-matter-unparalleled-pride-says-prime-minister-narendra-modi/ .

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## Manindra

nang2 said:


> One thing I didn't get. How come LCA needs weight reduction when it extensively uses composite? How light do you want it to be? Anyone cares to enlighten me? Thanks.


Nearly half ton dead weight use as ballast.


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## anant_s

BENGALURU: The Flying Daggers, the first squadron of the Tejas indigenous light combat aircraft, which currently comprises two jets, will touch its full strength of 20 by 2018.



> *Highlights*
> 
> The first squadron of the Tejas indigenous light combat aircraft will touch its full strength of 20 by 2018
> Tejas is not yet completely combat-ready
> The Air Force will begin to get the Tejas it really wants only by 2020


Though it has been inducted, the Tejas is not completely combat-ready. It is equipped with close combat air-to-air missiles, helmet-mounted display and precision-guided bombs. The final version will incorporate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, improved stand-off weapons, and mid-air refuelling capability. IAF also wants an active electronically scanned array radar and advanced electronic warfare suite. The Air Force will begin to get the Tejas it really wants only by 2020.

Group captain Madhav Rangachari, the first commanding officer of the Tejas squadron, completed the first 20-minute flight after Tejas was inducted. The squadron will have seven officers, 42 air warriors and 20 non-commissioned officers to begin with.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi tweeted his congratulations with: "Induction of indigenously made Tejas fighter jet into the Air Force fills our hearts with unparalleled pride & happiness."

The Flying Daggers will remain in Bengaluru for about two years before moving to its permanent base in Sulur in Tamil Nadu's Coimbatore district in 2018.

HAL is expected to deliver the next two aircraft in the next few months and three more by mid-2017.





*
Fourth generation aircraft, Tejas has the best record (with no crashes) for any new fighter platform in the world, having flown 2,029 hours in 3,187 sorties.*

Air Marshal Walia said: "It is our aircraft and we will get more of it. The final operational clearance (FOC) is expected in March 2017 and by 2018-end we should have 20 aircraft (including four trainers) as part of the squadron, when it goes to Sulur."

While Team Tejas -Aeronautical Development Authority (ADA) and HAL -maintains the official cost of Tejas MK-I at Rs 9,000 crore, the Centre, citing delays, has put the overall cost at Rs 57,000 crore.


The IAF has committed to acquiring 40 Tejas aircraft, 20 in the initial operational clearance configuration and 20 in the FOC configuration, and the IAF is expected to increase orders to 80 aircraft.Team Tejas has built prototypes of the naval version.A single unit of the upgraded Tejas is expected to cost Rs 275 crore to Rs 300 crore.

Tejas, which compares with the best in its class, will prove much cheaper than imported jets over time. It will reduce the country's strategic vulnerability to foreign-weapon supplies being choked in times of conflict.
@Abingdonboy @ranjeet @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @GURU DUTT 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ion-it-wants-by-2020/articleshow/53016453.cms

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## anant_s

*When 3 soldiers turned priests for the newly-formed Tejas squadron*





BENGALURU: Three soldiers — Junior Warrant Officer KK Tiwari, Naik Subedar Karnail Singh and Junior Warrant Officer Mohammed Mushtak Ali — on Friday turned priests praying for the welfare of the newly-formed Tejas squadron, while Peter Rajabon and Karthi Kumar from a nearby church came in to say Christian prayers.



> *Highlights*
> 
> Three soldiers on Friday turned priests praying for the welfare of the newly-formed Tejas squadron
> It is a tradition the IAF follows every time a new squadron is formed
> The Tejas got a water cannon salute — two fire tenders spraying water on the aircraft — another IAF tradition


It is a tradition the IAF follows every time a new squadron is formed. "*It is called the sarvadharma samaroh (interfaith prayer)*," an IAF spokesperson said.

Tiwari, who performed the Hindu prayers, said: "We will pray to Ganesha and Gowri and wish for the safety of the squadron."

Following Tiwari's rituals, which included a 'kalash puja' and chanting of the Gayatri mantra, Ali, Karnail and Rajabon read verses from the Quran, Guru Granth Sahib and the Bible.

Coconuts were offered and the new squadron was blessed before its commanding officer, Group Captain M Rangachari, took the Tejas into the skies on its maiden flight in IAF colours. After landing, the Tejas got a water cannon salute — two fire tenders spraying water on the aircraft — another IAF tradition.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ormed-Tejas-squadron/articleshow/53016542.cms

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## GORKHALI

*Found this in tarmak007 page.
Damn its touching.

Thank You #India for standing by me.
For believing me.
I'm late, but I'm light.
I'm lethal.
I'm #Tejas*

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## RPK



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## RPK



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## GURU DUTT

anant_s said:


> BENGALURU: The Flying Daggers, the first squadron of the Tejas indigenous light combat aircraft, which currently comprises two jets, will touch its full strength of 20 by 2018.
> 
> 
> Though it has been inducted, the Tejas is not completely combat-ready. It is equipped with close combat air-to-air missiles, helmet-mounted display and precision-guided bombs. The final version will incorporate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, improved stand-off weapons, and mid-air refuelling capability. IAF also wants an active electronically scanned array radar and advanced electronic warfare suite. The Air Force will begin to get the Tejas it really wants only by 2020.
> 
> Group captain Madhav Rangachari, the first commanding officer of the Tejas squadron, completed the first 20-minute flight after Tejas was inducted. The squadron will have seven officers, 42 air warriors and 20 non-commissioned officers to begin with.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi tweeted his congratulations with: "Induction of indigenously made Tejas fighter jet into the Air Force fills our hearts with unparalleled pride & happiness."
> 
> The Flying Daggers will remain in Bengaluru for about two years before moving to its permanent base in Sulur in Tamil Nadu's Coimbatore district in 2018.
> 
> HAL is expected to deliver the next two aircraft in the next few months and three more by mid-2017.
> View attachment 315258
> 
> *
> Fourth generation aircraft, Tejas has the best record (with no crashes) for any new fighter platform in the world, having flown 2,029 hours in 3,187 sorties.*
> 
> Air Marshal Walia said: "It is our aircraft and we will get more of it. The final operational clearance (FOC) is expected in March 2017 and by 2018-end we should have 20 aircraft (including four trainers) as part of the squadron, when it goes to Sulur."
> 
> While Team Tejas -Aeronautical Development Authority (ADA) and HAL -maintains the official cost of Tejas MK-I at Rs 9,000 crore, the Centre, citing delays, has put the overall cost at Rs 57,000 crore.
> 
> 
> The IAF has committed to acquiring 40 Tejas aircraft, 20 in the initial operational clearance configuration and 20 in the FOC configuration, and the IAF is expected to increase orders to 80 aircraft.Team Tejas has built prototypes of the naval version.A single unit of the upgraded Tejas is expected to cost Rs 275 crore to Rs 300 crore.
> 
> Tejas, which compares with the best in its class, will prove much cheaper than imported jets over time. It will reduce the country's strategic vulnerability to foreign-weapon supplies being choked in times of conflict.
> @Abingdonboy @ranjeet @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @GURU DUTT
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ion-it-wants-by-2020/articleshow/53016453.cms


every thing aside its combat range is still very low as the engine dose not gets enof air we need F35 air induction system in it to tackle that i hope they do in MK1A



nang2 said:


> One thing I didn't get. How come LCA needs weight reduction when it extensively uses composite? How light do you want it to be? Anyone cares to enlighten me? Thanks.


tejas was in testing so it had many testing and tellematerry instruments there harnasess extra batteries and other things like sepcial fittings plus the ballast weight and super heavy duty landing gear which is more than twice as heavy as required when all of these things be taken out at least 500 to 800 weight is gonna be taken out and there will be much more room to repack and re arrange new and more compact avionicks and batteries and sub systems which will make tejas much more easier to service and mantain plus this weight reduction couplled by new body panels with lesser drag and better aerodynamic profile which gonna increase its agility , fuel economy and range further



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Since much is not known about its radar capabilities, I can only comment about its aerodynamic performance. To me it seems to be a lighter version of the Mirage 2000. High on drag, like all delta-winged aircraft. It's aspect ratio is the lowest ever in any jet fighter, to date. This translates into poor turning ability at low speeds due to high induced drag. Also, it means longer take-off and landing distances.
> The F-404 engine is a very capable and reliable, though the IAF would be in a mess if it switched to the Kaveri that hasn't worked so far.
> The JF-17 is an operational aircraft, and has a proven record. The pilots are quite happy with its performance.
> Finally, as an aesthete, I find the Tejas ugly from ceetain aspects, especially the oversized servo actuator fairings on the underside of the wings.
> Given a choice, I'd go for a JF-17 to fight a Tejas.


with all due respect TT sir may i add a few things 

1.tejas has all axis 4 chanell digital FBW and compound cranked delta wing setup which in turns makes it more than capable to tackle problems arising due to drag at low speeds 

2.it also has the bigger wing area than any other comparable jet fighter and the lowest wing loading which gives it much more lift resulting that a fully loaded LCA takes 400-450meter runway for take of or landing while JFT takes almost 650-680meters for the same 

3.unlike JF17 tejas has the all important HMDS and HOBS combo (elbit Dash 3 and Python5/R73) givng its pilot to lock and shoot a enemy fighter by just looking at it even if its at 90 degree angle in any axis and no matter how agile is your fighter your pilot can only eject in time if he detects a Python5 coming towards it 

4.tejas unlike JFT is also tested under every kinds altitude , weather and day and night conditions with EL2032MMR and Derby and I Derby ER combo and Litening G3 and GBU-16Paveway II laser guided bombs which gives much much better ground strike and BVR capabilty which not even JF-17 Blk 2 has right now 

last but not the least Tejas in not a frontline fightre jet like JF17 rather its a point defnce/internal air policing and escort fighter with limited ground strike capability hope you get my point sir

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## Jughead

Congratulations India! Its a beautiful looking machine.

Took a long time coming but I'm sure the effort was worth it.

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## anant_s

GORKHALI said:


> *Found this in tarmak007 page.
> Damn its touching.
> 
> Thank You #India for standing by me.
> For believing me.
> I'm late, but I'm light.
> I'm lethal.
> I'm #Tejas*

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## Joe Shearer

Dandpatta said:


> Will all Tejas planes in the IAF will have the name TEJAS plastered under the cockpit canopy? I hope after these two inductions, rest of the planes will do away with the plane's name. @Abingdonboy @Joe Shearer comments please.



WWII bomber pilots had luscious females' pictures on their fuselages. As long as the pilot is happy, and thinks these little touches will compensate for his risking his life, let them be happy.

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> WWII bomber pilots had luscious females' pictures on their fuselages. As long as the pilot is happy, and thinks these little touches will compensate for his risking his life, let them be happy.



WWII had pilots, i am not sure if WW3 will have them, atleast not in the cockpit. They coming era is of gamers fiddling their HOTAS in an AC vault.

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## Hellfire

Kraitcorp said:


> @dadeechi is confident F-16's are coming next soon...



He is on F-16s I on F-18s

But one platform is likely to come - that is for sure.


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## W@rwolf

*IAF likely to get fully-loaded Tejas version it wants by 2020*

The Flying Daggers, the first squadron of the Tejas indigenous light combat aircraft, which currently comprises two jets, will touch its full strength of 20 by 2018.

Though it has been inducted, the Tejas is not completely combat-ready. It is equipped with close combat air-to-air missiles, helmet-mounted display and precision-guided bombs. The final version will incorporate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, improved stand-off weapons, and mid-air refuelling capability. IAF also wants an active electronically scanned array radar and advanced electronic warfare suite. The Air Force will begin to get the Tejas it really wants only by 2020.

Group captain Madhav Rangachari, the first commanding officer of the Tejas squadron, completed the first 20-minute flight after Tejas was inducted. The squadron will have seven officers, 42 air warriors and 20 non-commissioned officers to begin with.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi tweeted his congratulations with: "Induction of indigenously made Tejas fighter jet into the Air Force fills our hearts with unparalleled pride & happiness."

The Flying Daggers will remain in Bengaluru for about two years before moving to its permanent base in Sulur in Tamil Nadu's Coimbatore district in 2018.

*HAL is expected to deliver the next two aircraft in the next few months and three more by mid-2017.*

fourth generation aircraft, Tejas has the best record (with no crashes) for any new fighter platform in the world, having flown 2,029 hours in 3,187 sorties.

Air Marshal Walia said: "It is our aircraft and we will get more of it. The final operational clearance (FOC) is expected in March 2017 and* by 2018-end we should have 20 aircraft (including four trainers) as part of the squadron*, when it goes to Sulur."

While Team Tejas -Aeronautical Development Authority (ADA) and HAL -maintains the official cost of Tejas MK-I at Rs 9,000 crore, the Centre, citing delays, has put the overall cost at Rs 57,000 crore.

The IAF has committed to acquiring 40 Tejas aircraft, 20 in the initial operational clearance configuration and 20 in the FOC configuration, and the IAF is expected to increase orders to 80 aircraft.Team Tejas has built prototypes of the naval version.A single unit of the upgraded Tejas is expected to cost Rs 275 crore to Rs 300 crore.

Tejas, which compares with the best in its class, will prove much cheaper than imported jets over time. It will reduce the country's strategic vulnerability to foreign-weapon supplies being choked in times of conflict.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ion-it-wants-by-2020/articleshow/53016453.cms


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## Abingdonboy

Dandpatta said:


> Will all Tejas planes in the IAF will have the name TEJAS plastered under the cockpit canopy? I hope after these two inductions, rest of the planes will do away with the plane's name. @Abingdonboy @Joe Shearer comments please.


That's the IAF's call and it's worth nothing they don't have the names on the rest of the fleet.



anant_s said:


> The final version will incorporate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles,


I guess we all imagined the LCA firing the Derby off the coast of Gujarat.



anant_s said:


>



What nonsense it this? Comparing the LCA to subsonic AJTs and LIFTs?



Pressitutes being presstitutes.

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## GuardianRED

[QUOTE
What nonsense it this? Comparing the LCA to subsonic AJTs and LIFTs?



Pressitutes being presstitutes.[/QUOTE]

Which one did this ? Rajan Guy? No its Chethan Kumari

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## Stephen Cohen

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...on-india-pakistan-combat-aircraft-iaf/303714/


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## GURU DUTT

Stephen Cohen said:


> http://www.financialexpress.com/art...on-india-pakistan-combat-aircraft-iaf/303714/


just now a thread was delete based on the same article

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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> That's the IAF's call and it's worth nothing they don't have the names on the rest of the fleet.
> 
> 
> I guess we all imagined the LCA firing the Derby off the coast of Gujarat.
> 
> 
> 
> What nonsense it this? Comparing the LCA to subsonic AJTs and LIFTs?
> 
> 
> 
> Pressitutes being presstitutes.



Times of India really puts any sorts of comparisons to suit its readers.
Phrases like " Eyes on China..." are quite common everytime India launches a satellite or commissions a weapon system.
but as you mentioned Presstitutes...can't do much about them

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## Stephen Cohen

GURU DUTT said:


> just now a thread was delete based on the same article



I am not posting a thread 

I am just posting a Link

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## GURU DUTT

Stephen Cohen said:


> I am not posting a thread
> 
> I am just posting a Link


its not good to post such bhlaphemous links here

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## Abingdonboy



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## Dandpatta

@Joe Shearer @Abingdonboy 
My point is, no other aircrafts in the history of military aviation had their designated names/numbers on the fuselage. You don't see Mirage, F16, F5,F4, F18 Mig-29 , Su-xx , J-xx, EA6 etc etc on planes.


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## I M Sikander

W@rwolf said:


> *IAF likely to get fully-loaded Tejas version it wants by 2020*
> 
> Tejas is not completely combat-ready.
> 
> The final version will incorporate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles,
> improved stand-off weapons, and
> 
> mid-air refuelling capability. IAF also wants an active electronically scanned array radar.
> 
> The Air Force will begin to get the Tejas it really wants only by 2020.
> 
> The final operational clearance (FOC) is expected in March 2017 and* by 2018 end.
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ion-it-wants-by-2020/articleshow/53016453.cms*


*
That's all folks.

Tejas not combat ready. 
Re fuelling probe isn't there yet.
Bvr capability missing.
Squadron raised without FOC. 

IAF has to wait till 2020 for a combat ready tejas. I feel sorry for IAF. 
*


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## fsayed

Dandpatta said:


> @Joe Shearer @Abingdonboy
> My point is, no other aircrafts in the history of military aviation had their designated names/numbers on the fuselage. You don't see Mirage, F16, F5,F4, F18 Mig-29 , Su-xx , J-xx, EA6 etc etc on planes.


We r here to change that history and future belongs to india inshaallah

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## muhammadali233

GURU DUTT said:


> its not good to post such bhlaphemous links here


funny thing is guys at FE and DRDO are so dumb that they cannot differentiate between aircraft gens that is some dumb shit right there.
jf 17 is 3rd and tejas is 4+,like wtf?ffs India media never fails to amuse me.


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## GORKHALI

Ranasikander said:


> *That's all folks.
> 
> Tejas not combat ready.
> Re fuelling probe isn't there yet.
> Bvr capability missing.
> Squadron raised without FOC.
> 
> IAF has to wait till 2020 for a combat ready tejas. I feel sorry for IAF. *


Did you felt sorry for Jf17 ,when it inducted back in 2009 without above mention things?

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## desimorty

> What nonsense it this? Comparing the LCA to subsonic AJTs and LIFTs?
> 
> 
> 
> Pressitutes being presstitutes.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-113#ixzz4DJeqVeWa


Makes sense. Since the Tejas can do what a LIFT or AJT like T-50 can do and near the same cost. Not to mention Tejas can do more and being a LCA it lower cost and lowering cost.
The list is missing Gripen as a twin seater Gripen can provide the same capability give or take handling which I hear the Tejas is easier to fly for a newer pilot. The Gripen does provide quicker response though.
Also the Tejas crash record so far has been perfect.
Basically Tejas is too big to fail. Luckily worked out because some one had the foresight to demand the best technology even though not available at the time. Too bad the IJT Program had not been scrutinized earlier.
IAF should be greatful that they get an aircraft like Tejas with the ability to provide excellent low speed handling and a reliable engine. Both the JF-17 and J-10 don't have a reliable engines which means both are bad trainer aircraft. Luckily the the PLA has the foresight to know China won't have good engine for a long time.

Since the potential demand for Tejas could be very high MoD is desperate for US transfer of technology for F414.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## GURU DUTT

muhammadali233 said:


> funny thing is guys at FE and DRDO are so dumb that they cannot differentiate between aircraft gens that is some dumb shit right there.
> jf 17 is 3rd and tejas is 4+,like wtf?ffs India media never fails to amuse me.



its ADA that developed LCA with help of HAL not DRDO tell me who is dumber

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## Agent_47



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## nang2

jatt said:


> Makes sense. Since the Tejas can do what a LIFT or AJT like T-50 can do and near the same cost. Not to mention Tejas can do more and being a LCA it lower cost and lowering cost.
> The list is missing Gripen as a twin seater Gripen can provide the same capability give or take handling which I hear the Tejas is easier to fly for a newer pilot. The Gripen does provide quicker response though.
> Also the Tejas crash record so far has been perfect.
> Basically Tejas is too big to fail. Luckily worked out because some one had the foresight to demand the best technology even though not available at the time. Too bad the IJT Program had not been scrutinized earlier.
> IAF should be greatful that they get an aircraft like Tejas with the ability to provide excellent low speed handling and a reliable engine. Both the JF-17 and J-10 don't have a reliable engines which means both are bad trainer aircraft. Luckily the the PLA has the foresight to know China won't have good engine for a long time.
> 
> Since the potential demand for Tejas could be very high MoD is desperate for US transfer of technology for F414.


There are about 400 "bad trainer aircrafts".


----------



## Local_Legend

*ADA chief counters sceptics, says aircraft is combat-ready*



BENGALURU: Even after the induction of Tejas into the IAF, some defence observers are in private questioning its combat readiness.

That is not fair, according to Commodore C D Balaji, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

“It is combat-ready, but it is not correct to expect it to match up to the Sukhoi-30MKI. The shortfall that people are talking about is a perceived one, and you have to look at the larger picture,’’ he said.

Excerpts from an interview:

It Tejas fully combat-ready?

Yes, it is. We have tested many missiles and bombs, including those required to be tested at the FOC stage. We will be doing accuracy improvement soon. It involves tuning the software and testing it by dropping bombs.



Improvement in Mark1A?

In Mark1A we will be changing the radar, and bring about maintainability improvements that help in the aircraft’s turnaround. We will build electronic warfare capabilities. Those are available in the Air Force and Naval inventory.


Issues with landing gear and angle of attack?

Those issues have been sorted out. We went through the process and have taken corrective measures. It’s good we noticed a landing gear issue early and made our design robust. On the angle of attack, it was 20 degrees for IOC, but in FOC we are clearing 24 degrees. That’s been sorted out.



Tell us about the naval variant of Tejas.

Two naval variants have done 115 sorties and the performance is better than our expectation. In May, we did night ski jump and landing tests. We were conservative in performance estimation, but the aircraft is doing very well.



What’s the timeline?

There is nothing like a timeline for the naval variants. We need to do a carrier-compatibility demo and limited IOC demo that involves ski-jump launch, arrested recovery. We plan to complete that by middle of next year. After that we’ve to wait for a carrier demonstration.


What about hot refuelling?

It is the only aircraft in India to have hot-refuelling capability, in which the pilot is in the cockpit and engine is running when aircraft is refuelled. We did that three times. It is a capability enhancer and not a replacement to air-to-air refueling.


http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...is-combat-ready/2016/07/02/article3509736.ece

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## desimorty

> There are about 400 "bad trainer aircrafts".


No the PLA don't see the J-10 as apt trainer for flight time hence the strong RnD and success in ground trainers and high end simulators to get the recommended flight time. The PLAAF are careful when it comes to booking J-10 flights because of engines. Peace time its an issue.


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## W@rwolf

*France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project*

France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenousTejas fighters by 2020. 

The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project, people involved in talks between the Indian defence ministry, the Defence Research & Development Organisation andFrench companies told ET. 

Foreign arms companies that sell equipment to India are mandated to invest a portion of the contract cost in the country's defence and aerospace industry. In the case of the Rafale deal, which India and France are negotiating, the offset obligation is 50% of the cost, which would translate to over EUR 3 billion. 

Sources said that since January, several rounds of discussions have taken place between Indian authorities and French company Safran, which developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters. 







French experts who assessed the Kaveri engine — which was more or less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to shortcomings on power —indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make it flight-worthy.

According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment, committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk 1 A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020. 

The air force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1 A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year. It is currently powered by GE 404 engines. 


"The proposal is to have the Kaveri ready for the next version of the LCA that would then boast of an indigenous engine as well. The French are confident that this can be done and are willing to put in money into the project," a person involved in the discussion said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms

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## Levina

@Dash
I guess this is where you wanted me to post it.

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## fsayed

Levina said:


> @Dash
> I guess this is where you wanted me to post it.


Awesome video summary of all previous videos collated in one

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## Agent_47



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## GuardianRED

Levina said:


> @Dash
> I guess this is where you wanted me to post it.



WOW, this the best video till now !!! absolutely perfect, nice background score ! it just occurred to me now that @03:47 the missile hit its target!!! WoooHooo

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## Kraitcorp

Agent_47 said:


>


F16 in background (right side). Are we testing that plane too....



















LSP-5 (KH-2015) taking off for another routine test flight during the all important armament detachment at AFS, Jamnagar.

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## nang2

Kraitcorp said:


> F16 in background (right side). Are we testing that plane too....


The first picture looks awesome! Like alien aircraft, such as the one in movie Independence Day.

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## Abingdonboy

Kraitcorp said:


> F16 in background (right side). Are we testing that plane too....


Nope, that pic was taken at Aero India 2015:

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## Agent_47

*
Python-5




*

Credits : on pic

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## Nilgiri

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2016/07/taking-forward-tejas.html

*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 5th July 16*

Over the preceding decade, under-informed defence writers and commentators have made careers out of bad-mouthing India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The commentary focused primarily on development delays, criticized the fighter’s performance and sneered at the under-funded, under-staffed Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) agency responsible for the Tejas programme. Regrettably, the Indian Air Force (IAF) colluded in undermining ADA, passing on tidbits to the media in order to show the Tejas in a poor light, apparently to clear the way for importing expensive aircraft. Thanks to this, most Indians came to regard the Tejas as a byword for delay, incompetence and the untrustworthiness of the DRDO. Most Indians concluded that the purchase of exorbitantly priced foreign aircraft like the French Rafale was unavoidable to keep India safe.

These critics have now done an about-turn after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar inducted the first two production version Tejas Mark I fighters on Saturday into the IAF’s first operational Tejas squadron (45 Squadron). In January, the Tejas made its foreign debut, performing well-received aerobatics displays at the Bahrain international Air Show. Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, a steady hand at the IAF’s tiller, has supported the Tejas and committed to ordering 100 Tejas Mark 1A fighters --- similar to the current version, except for four specified improvements. Test pilots involved in the Tejas’ flight-testing had always praised its performance and reliability, but now there is also praise from the IAF. Group Captain Madhav Rangachari, the 45 Squadron chief who flew the Tejas on Saturday, reportedly observed afterwards: "I felt like being on top of the world when flying the Tejas fighter. It’s an excellent aircraft and a generation ahead of other fighters in the world.”

That nobody has contradicted Rangachari is a measure of how effusive the media has suddenly become in reporting this story. It needs to be pointed out that the Tejas is not “a generation ahead of other fighters”; it is a contemporary fighter, with several features that match the “best-in-class”, while others still require improvement. Even so, the most astounding achievement of the Tejas project is the development of a fourth-generation fighter and a respectable aerospace development, production and testing eco-system in India for the pittance of Rs 14,047 crore, just over $2 billion. This was done in the face of intensified international technology sanctions since the 1998 nuclear tests and, as discussed above, amidst media and IAF hostility.

The operationalization of the Tejas has not taken “over three decades” as critics dishonestly maintain. They incorrectly cite August 22, 1983 as the start of the Tejas project, when the government allocated Rs 560 crore for “feasibility studies and project definition”. In fact, it took another decade, until April 1993, when the defence ministry sanctioned the “Full Scale Engineering Development” (FSED) of the Tejas, and provided funds to build two fighters as “technology demonstrators”.

Taking April 1993 as the start of the Tejas development programme, the timeline suddenly looks more respectable. It took just eight years for the Tejas’ first flight in 2001; 20 years for initial operational clearance in 2013, and 23 years for final operational clearance and induction into IAF service. The significantly more capable Tejas Mark IA is expected to be completed by 2018 to meet standards that four agencies --- the defence ministry, IAF, ADA, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds the fighter --- have hammered out between them, to make the Tejas clearly more capable than current enemy fighters. If that deadline is met, the Tejas will have taken exactly a quarter century in development. That is a creditable record for building a first fighter.

The improved Tejas Mark IA will have an AESA radar, which the DRDO-HAL combine proposes to build in partnership with Israeli company Elta. It will be capable of air-to-air refueling to increase range and combat endurance. It will also have a “self-protection jammer” (SPJ) mounted in an external pod to confuse enemy radar. Finally, it will have an improved layout of internal systems to ease maintenance and allow rapid “turnaround time”, i.e. the quickness with which the Tejas can leave on a fresh mission after returning from an earlier one.

The IAF has already detailed the Tejas’ performance parameters, announcing: “The LCA has a very competitive and cotemporary operational envelope. It is capable of operations up to an altitude of 50,000 feet and a maximum speed of 1.6 Mach at [high] altitudes or 730 knots… at low levels. The aircraft [can turn at] +8G to -2.5G (which allows it to U-turn in 350 metres) in operationally clean configuration… or +6G to -2.5G with other external stores.” This respectable performance envelope will be further enhanced when the Tejas IA enters service. It is, therefore, incorrect to suggest, as some commentators and editorial writers have done, that only the import of fighters like the Rafale would give the IAF an operational edge. Directing those billions into the Tejas programme instead would be a more sensible course.

Even as the Tejas Mark IA is being developed, ADA is working on the Tejas Mark II. The key enhancement in that will be the replacement of the current General Electric F-404 engine with the larger, more powerful GE F-414 engine. The technological challenge --- which is to re-engineer the Mark I fuselage to fit in the bulkier F-414 --- would be offset by the Mark II’s greater power. The re-engineering would also provide the opportunity to replace the current generation of avionics with enhanced, new-generation avionics. Realistically, the Mark II can be expected to enter service by 2023-24, until when HAL can build the 100 Mark IA fighters that the IAF has committed to buying.

Supporting ADA through this programme is essential. That agency is simultaneously working on an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which will be a fifth-generation fighter with stealth features, and incorporating an advanced engine that will allow it to supercruise (fly at supersonic speed without lighting the fuel-guzzling afterburner). To enable and empower this project, it is essential to quickly conclude the contract with Russia to co-develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that has been mired in negotiations for a decade. The FGFA experience would provide Indian aeronautical engineers the knowhow and experience in working on fifth-generation technologies, which would be translated into the AMCA.


The area of concern, which the defence ministry needs to address on priority, is to ensure that HAL builds the Tejas Mark I and Mark IA at a rate of 12-16 fighters per year. That would allow the IAF to conduct operational planning, obtain buy-in from that service, and translate the Tejas from a debutante into a real combat asset.

@Sliver @fsayed @dadeechi @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Kraitcorp @Stephen Cohen 

@kaykay @litefire @randomradio @C130 @Blue Marlin and others

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## Kraitcorp

Agent_47 said:


> *
> Python-5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Credits : on pic



This a noob question. Does both Airforce and Navy have Dual Pilots versions?


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## Manindra

Kraitcorp said:


> This a noob question. Does both Airforce and Navy have Dual Pilots versions?


Yes

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## anant_s

Nilgiri said:


> If that deadline is met, the Tejas will have taken exactly a quarter century in development. That is a creditable record for building a first fighter.



For an aircraft developed from scratch, 25 years is indeed a respectable time frame. my guess is if Kaveri program was not linked to original fighter program, who knows we could've had the bird in air, probably 4-5 years earlier.
Today there are talks of AMCA getting powered by an imported engine and that tells that lessons have been learnt from LCA program and now to deliver a product on time to customer, design agencies are now focusing on their core strengths and not letting things not directly under their control, affect the program.
Assistance from Israel in radar and avionics, help from US/France in Engine and applying learning from LCA will surely help us getting a desired next generation fighter in reasonable time. That i believe will be true legacy of LCA program.

PS: since i keep writing a lot about railways, i cannot hold myself to quote an example from mid 70s for IR, in context to above.
IR prior to start of 1970s, used to manufacture electric locomotives at CLW, based on French and Japanese designs of 4 axle configuration (WAG 1, 2, 3, 4 and WAM 1, 2, 3). these designs were suited to high speed but low load capacity prevailing in Europe and Japan on lines supporting High axle load. Since India didnot have choice that time, these designs had to be used, even though Indian tracks didnot support high axle loads. We had to reduce weight of motors, Transformers and other auxiliaries to bring the weight of a locomotive inside permissible track loading values, but s a result, we were contend to reduce horsepower of these locomotives.
hen in early 70s, designers at RDSO decided to marry bogie design of legendary ALCO 251 WDM 2 (a diesel loco) with electric loco features of European designs and came up with a 6 axle WAM 4 design and subsequently WAG 5.
From that point, here has been no looking back and today we have an amazing array of locomotives to cater all types of requirements.
The story just shows that learning curves can be steep at times, almost like scaling a high plateau, but once you reach on top of that, the view is sweet. I sincerely hope, it is the case with Indian military aviation designers too.

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## Nilgiri

anant_s said:


> For an aircraft developed from scratch, 25 years is indeed a respectable time frame. my guess is if Kaveri program was not linked to original fighter program, who knows we could've had the bird in air, probably 4-5 years earlier.
> Today there are talks of AMCA getting powered by an imported engine and that tells that lessons have been learnt from LCA program and now to deliver a product on time to customer, design agencies are now focusing on their core strengths and not letting things not directly under their control, affect the program.
> Assistance from Israel in radar and avionics, help from US/France in Engine and applying learning from LCA will surely help us getting a desired next generation fighter in reasonable time. That i believe will be true legacy of LCA program.
> 
> PS: since i keep writing a lot about railways, i cannot hold myself to quote an example from mid 70s for IR, in context to above.
> IR prior to start of 1970s, used to manufacture electric locomotives at CLW, based on French and Japanese designs of 4 axle configuration (WAG 1, 2, 3, 4 and WAM 1, 2, 3). these designs were suited to high speed but low load capacity prevailing in Europe and Japan on lines supporting High axle load. Since India didnot have choice that time, these designs had to be used, even though Indian tracks didnot support high axle loads. We had to reduce weight of motors, Transformers and other auxiliaries to bring the weight of a locomotive inside permissible track loading values, but s a result, we were contend to reduce horsepower of these locomotives.
> hen in early 70s, designers at RDSO decided to marry bogie design of legendary ALCO 251 WDM 2 (a diesel loco) with electric loco features of European designs and came up with a 6 axle WAM 4 design and subsequently WAG 5.
> From that point, here has been no looking back and today we have an amazing array of locomotives to cater all types of requirements.
> The story just shows that learning curves can be steep at times, almost like scaling a high plateau, but once you reach on top of that, the view is sweet. I sincerely hope, it is the case with Indian military aviation designers too.



Wow didnt know that about Railways locos. Thanks for this insight! Truly appreciated!

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## anant_s

Nilgiri said:


> Wow didnt know that about Railways locos. Thanks for this insight! Truly appreciated!


In case you are interested in topic:
https://defence.pk/threads/indian-railways-freight-transportation-past-present-future.397208/

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## Kraitcorp

From the archives of AERO INDIA 2013, here we present an image of Tejas recovering from a vertical loop..




From the archives of Aero India 2009, LSP-2 (KH-2012) about to taxi out for an aerobatic display. The turning of the nose wheel tyres indicate that.




ejas, on the way of being inducted as FLYING DAGGERS, has undergone variety of tests in variety of weathers starting from the freezing environment of Leh to the hottest tarmacs of Gwalior Air Force Base.Here we present all the fans with an image of Tejas LSP-7 (KH-2017) undergoing hot weather trials at AFS, Gwalior in June 2014.









LSP-8 (KH-2018) undergoing a hard turn at AI 2015..

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## sathya

^^^^^
look itself is getting matured, especially the last 2..


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## SQ8

Guynextdoor2 said:


> apart from making vague points there is no tangible stuff in these hit and run criticism. Fact is there are significant limitations to JF 17 even in design phase itself, like HMD, FBW etc. and you have dozens of jets flying with these limitations _which will not be fixed for decades at least. _Guess what, when something is too good to be true, it generally is. When people said you can't develop an induct an aircraft in 3 years and it's usually lemon, that's what JF 17 is.
> 
> Your AF may be ready to deploy several squadrons of JF 17s with these limitations, *the IAF is not. *And when the LCA was somewhere close to acceptable it already has none of the limitations that JF 17 has, It's a question of *standards.*


*The best you have is cheap derailment. And then you are a retard to try that on me. First, none of what you have said is beyond the hit and run you so hypocritically claim(but that is natural for you). *
*Second, you tried the "off topic derailment" just so that you could hide your inability to defend those critiques effectively. *

*So here is what I am going to do, *

*First, you get a warning for your violation and then Ill see based on your warning whether I ban your useless troll and flaming arse permanently. *

*Second, and at the least.. I will permanently ban you from ANY thread you have posted in the past 2 months. So all you can do is simmer in front of your keyboard.*

*These two will remain here as testament and warning to all.*

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## AMCA

Oscar said:


> *The best you have is cheap derailment. And then you are a retard to try that on me. First, none of what you have said is beyond the hit and run you so hypocritically claim(but that is natural for you). *
> *Second, you tried the "off topic derailment" just so that you could hide your inability to defend those critiques effectively. *
> 
> *So here is what I am going to do, *
> 
> *First, you get a warning for your violation and then Ill see based on your warning whether I ban your useless troll and flaming arse permanently. *
> 
> *Second, and at the least.. I will permanently ban you from ANY thread you have posted in the past 2 months. So all you can do is simmer in front of your keyboard.*
> 
> *These two will remain here as testament and warning to all.*



lol !! So you're gonna ban him for saying something that did not sound good to your ears? May be you need to stop your people from trolling on every other thread on India defense to be credible enough to ban this guy, but hey you're the Mod and this is a Pakistani Defense Forum.

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## Han Patriot

> After a wait of over three decades, the IAF has finally got its hands on the first squadron of home-grown Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas next' with the induction of two aircrafts into the force in Bengaluru.



You got to be kidding me! After 30 years, and all those 'consultancy' help from foreign companies, you induct 2 planes to make a squadron? 

I thought you have all those smartest in the world IIT grad super engineers? This is really incompetent.


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## SQ8

Kraitcorp said:


> *The Moderator is no better. He is implying he has rights to say that LCA is likely a failed program.
> *
> View attachment 316298


I absolutely have rights. You are on a Pakistani forum that allows you free speech. There is nothing like that even remotely close in an Indian platform. Then, I have clearly laid out why the program has failed and the reasons behind it. You are unable to deal with, then stop posting on our forum and leave.

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## Centurion2016

Guys

Don't want to get banned so please *FORGIVE ME Oscar*

But IT IS FAIR assessment to suggest that the base line Tejas is a superior platform to thunder

Does it warrant a warning

OR IF this assumption ijncorrect then tell us

Reading between Thunder and Tejas the intial investment is greater than thunder by 3 -1 minimum ie $500m dollars v $1.5 billion

The indian plane has the edge in most areas on paper and is western technology based

YES THUNDER is in service 60+ and hence way ahead in doctrine etc. But I think IAF wil end inducting more tejas in its air force than PAF will thunder.

ASK WHY .....??????????

Any way

I love the look of the mark 2 Tejas


https://www.bing.com/images/search?...a0733103582a4c60226db41be5cf4326o0&ajaxhist=0

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## Han Patriot

Centurion2016 said:


> Guys
> 
> Don't want to get banned so please *FORGIVE ME Oscar*
> 
> But IT IS FAIR assessment to suggest that the base line Tejas is a superior platform to thunder
> 
> Does it warrant a warning
> 
> OR IF this assumption ijncorrect then tell us
> 
> Reading between Thunder and Tejas the intial investment is greater than thunder by 3 -1 minimum ie $500m dollars v $1.5 billion
> 
> The indian plane has the edge in most areas on paper and is western technology based
> 
> YES THUNDER is in service 60+ and hence way ahead in doctrine etc. But I think IAF wil end inducting more tejas in its air force than PAF will thunder.
> 
> ASK WHY .....??????????
> 
> Any way
> 
> I love the look of the mark 2 Tejas



Wow, you use to compare LCA to J-10. . Anyway, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS there are 100 operational JF-17 BLOCK II versus 2 friggin LCA MARK 1, which I am not even sure is fully weaponized. By the time you have a squadron, there will be a BLOCK III with AESA and WS-13E.


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## Centurion2016

Han

Aesa is fine ,,,

But the airframe is all metal and flight controls are single axis fbw

Theres NO HMS or HIOBS.

And the chinease cannot match USA engine efficiency

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## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> Wow, you use to compare LCA to J-10. . Anyway, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS there are 100 operational JF-17 BLOCK II versus 2 friggin LCA MARK 1, which I am not even sure is fully weaponized. By the time you have a squadron, there will be a BLOCK III with AESA and WS-13E.


Have been asking many times on this Forum !!! Pls SHOW Us any literature or official documents of the Specs for Block 3 either from PAC or CAC BUT No answer, just a Wish list . So Pls dont bring up Blk III until it exist officially on Paper at least!

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## Stephen Cohen

Centurion2016 said:


> Guys
> 
> Don't want to get banned so please *FORGIVE ME Oscar*
> 
> But IT IS FAIR assessment to suggest that the base line Tejas is a superior platform to thunder
> 
> Does it warrant a warning
> 
> OR IF this assumption ijncorrect then tell us
> 
> Reading between Thunder and Tejas the intial investment is greater than thunder by 3 -1 minimum ie $500m dollars v $1.5 billion
> 
> The indian plane has the edge in most areas on paper and is western technology based
> 
> YES THUNDER is in service 60+ and hence way ahead in doctrine etc. But I think IAF wil end inducting more tejas in its air force than PAF will thunder.
> 
> ASK WHY .....??????????
> 
> Any way
> 
> I love the look of the mark 2 Tejas
> 
> 
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?...a0733103582a4c60226db41be5cf4326o0&ajaxhist=0



BOTH Indians and Pakistanis have EVERY right to be proud of their planes

There is NO need to belittle each other's efforts or indulge in name calling or
give certificates about " success " or " failure "

If Indians believe LCA Tejas is better AND if Pakistanis believe JF 17 is better 
SO BE IT



Oscar said:


> I absolutely have rights. You are on a Pakistani forum that allows you free speech. There is nothing like that even remotely close in an Indian platform. Then, I have clearly laid out why the program has failed and the reasons behind it. You are unable to deal with, then stop posting on our forum and leave.



Sorry but we DO not agree with you

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## PakEye

Indian have only two tejas and IAF can able to include in 45th squadron after 12 years later because HAL Assembly limitation is 8 AC per year than required production number is 16 per year.


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## SQ8

Stephen Cohen said:


> Sorry but we DO not agree with you


That is the idea of the forum, agree to disagree.

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## Dash

levina ina said:


> @Dash
> I guess this is where you wanted me to post it.


Thanks levi

[Failed is"Oscar, post: 8447669, member: 14956"]I absolutely have rights. You are on a Pakistani forum that allows you free speech. There is nothing like that even remotely close in an Indian platform. Then, I have clearly laid out why the program has failed and the reasons behind it. You are unable to deal with, then stop posting on our forum and leave.[/QUOTE]

Failed is only according to you, but NOT for Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom. 

But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.

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## Centurion2016

The Indians have been license assemblying fighters since the 1970s

This last 12 months they inducted 15 brand new SU30MKI with majority indian sourced parts. Its taken over decade to get 15 a year but they did so.

With that in mind I think by 2020 THE tejas can roll out at 12-16 planes per year.

What I really want to see is this beauty

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## Levina

Dash said:


> Thanks levi
> 
> [Failed is"Oscar, post: 8447669, member: 14956"]I absolutely have rights. You are on a Pakistani forum that allows you free speech. There is nothing like that even remotely close in an Indian platform. Then, I have clearly laid out why the program has failed and the reasons behind it. You are unable to deal with, then stop posting on our forum and leave.





> Failed is only according to you, but NOT for Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.
> 
> But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.


@Dash 
You have not quoted @Oscar properly.
Lol


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## SQ8

Dash said:


> Thanks levi
> 
> [Failed is"Oscar, post: 8447669, member: 14956"]I absolutely have rights. You are on a Pakistani forum that allows you free speech. There is nothing like that even remotely close in an Indian platform. Then, I have clearly laid out why the program has failed and the reasons behind it. You are unable to deal with, then stop posting on our forum and leave.



Failed is only according to you, but NOT for Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.

But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.[/QUOTE]

Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.

The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(_nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it_) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its *original spec* which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(_not the design or concept but as a whole product_) a partial(_if the complete term is too acerbic_) failure.

Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(_foreign subcontractors, etc_) motivations to call it a success.

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## Centurion2016

I agree with OSCARs point............ Tejas will remain a potential failure until the end user ie IAF has inducted fully doctrinised and incorporated the plane into the air force.

And yes indian ability to mass produce and infrastructure support a fleet of 80 -100 fighters like tejas is unproven

So lets see what happens.

" ONE BLESSING IN DISGUISE"

"IF Tejas does FAIL OSCAR "

then india could follow the sinopak route of thunder AND START mass license assembly with TOT of the Gipen OR F16/V

SO THERE ARE OPTIONS OPEN TO india that its neighbiours could not harbour


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## jha

Whats LSA ?


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## R!CK

Han Patriot said:


> Wow, you use to compare LCA to J-10. . Anyway, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS there are 100 operational JF-17 BLOCK II versus 2 friggin LCA MARK 1, which I am not even sure is fully weaponized. By the time you have a squadron, there will be a BLOCK III with AESA and WS-13E.



Just to clear the air, I don't see anyone comparing J10 so maybe it's better to read the topic before commenting?

Secondly, please find out the date when the 100th JF-17 Block II was rolled out. There isn't even 50 block II JF-17 produced yet. 

On topic, both Tejas and Thunder are successful projects in their own ways. Let's hope the future remains bright for them both.




Han Patriot said:


> How many percent are Indian parts? We can make the whole SU-30 including the engines. Yours is just screwdriver and sticker tech.
> 
> I don't even want to bring up the production issues of you MKI assembly.
> Shall will can may, get it done first, then start talking. The reality is, there are 2 half baked LCA vs 100 block II JF-17 and what makes you think it will stay static?
> 
> We have AESA tech and WS-13E is ready. Its now a matter of whether we wanna screw up India and upgrade all those block IIs to block IIIs.



Again this thead is regarding LCA Tejas and not Chinese engines and AESA radar which surprisingly even PAF is not serious about integrating on JF-17. So firstly, find out the actual no. of JF-17 block II in service and give more attention to the thread title so you can save ur time.

Good day!

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## kaykay

Han Patriot said:


> How many percent are Indian parts? We can make the whole SU-30 including the engines. Yours is just screwdriver and sticker tech.
> 
> I don't even want to bring up the production issues of you MKI assembly.
> Shall will can may, get it done first, then start talking. The reality is, there are 2 half baked LCA vs 100 block II JF-17 and what makes you think it will stay static?
> 
> We have AESA tech and WS-13E is ready. Its now a matter of whether we wanna screw up India and upgrade all those block IIs to block IIIs.


We produce Su-30MKI from raw metal stage.....enough says!! @Abingdonboy @anant_s

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## Stephen Cohen

Compared to where India was in 1983 when we launched Tejas ; Indian Aerospace Capabilities
have come a LONG way

And the Best part is that given the ecosystem that we have created ; the foundations
that we have laid ; the knowledge and experience gained will STAND in good stead for us

We have come a long way and we will go even further

Fortunately There is NO last date or deadline for achieving technological success

If we only go by the time taken ; then No country would ever try to do something on its own
because of the fear that It would not be completed in so much time

Our Space programme is a glorious example of perseverance

We started that in the decade of fifties -- where we have reached now

The Tejas has definitely suffered in terms of Timelines
What we have achieved today could have been done earlier

But we have learnt so much from it

The Kaveri ENGINE programme is also supposed to be a FAILURE

But Recently the French gave us some really good News

They said that SEVENTY percent work is completed

So that is 70 percent success

If we fear failure ; we will never do anything on our own

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## Han Patriot

R!CK said:


> Just to clear the air, I don't see anyone comparing J10 so maybe it's better to read the topic before commenting?
> 
> Secondly, please find out the date when the 100th JF-17 Block II was rolled out. There isn't even 50 block II JF-17 produced yet.
> 
> On topic, both Tejas and Thunder are successful projects in their own ways. Let's hope the future remains bright for them both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this thead is regarding LCA Tejas and not Chinese engines and AESA radar which surprisingly even PAF is not serious about integrating on JF-17. So firstly, find out the actual no. of JF-17 block II in service and give more attention to the thread title so you can save ur time.
> 
> Good day!


Well, the favourite Indian source, wikipedia is wrong then. So let's assume 50 JF-17 versus 2 LCAs. 
Oucch, did I touch on something India doesn't have? AESA? Wow, you even know Pakistan doesn't want the AESA?


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## MimophantSlayer

Oscar said:


> Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
> But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.
> 
> The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(_nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it_) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
> So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its *original spec* which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(_not the design or concept but as a whole product_) a partial(_if the complete term is too acerbic_) failure.
> 
> Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
> If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(_foreign subcontractors, etc_) motivations to call it a success.



How again is it a failure? Just because it was not delivered in the stipulated timeframe?
*Failure *in this context would imply that India would never be able to use Tejas as a product for its defence purpose or that Tejas' development be annulled, but the process of induction just began this month, meaning Mig-21s *are being *replaced. Hence your point is moot.
However if you are adamant on using the word "failure" for rhetoric alone than that's all it will ever be. 

As for *"still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out *", almost every other fighter in history has had it.
For quite a few fighters only after induction have these kinks been ironed out, that is literally the legacy of the venerable F-16.

If we were to take the original specs that IAF wanted it was ready "as advertised" years ago.
Tejas *is *a great fighter with some of its current specs not even matched by some of the so called "*already inducted*" fighters.

Again, I understand your need to make for us black and white as to what happened in this long development process but the crux of the situation is these things(fighter R&D) are never that and are always grey and when and not if Tejas becomes a world class fighter the points you raised will just be tangents.

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## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> After 30 years and spending billions, you produce 2 aircraft which is not even weapons rated (i think), that's not a failure? Let's not even start on whether this is an 'indian' aircraft.
> 
> You can see this kind of incompetence repeated over most Indian military programs. I shall will can may, the best, the most powerful, typical isn't it?



This is coming from a Newbie? who has zero knowledge of the LCA Program!... Boss there are #1000+ post on this thread ! please do yourself a favour and read it!

Stick to the topic ppl

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## Han Patriot

GuardianRED said:


> This is coming from a Newbie? who has zero knowledge of the LCA Program!... Boss there are #1000+ post on this thread ! please do yourself a favour and read it!
> 
> Stick to the topic ppl


Hmm, you need another 'consultant' for Kaveri?


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## Centurion2016

Han 

I suggest you research why the Pakistanis are buying out if date second hand Jordanian falcons rather than buy the thunder which you keep going on about in a thread about tejas. 

Take the cbinease fighter out of this thread .

Build something in your own not on back of chengdu

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## Han Patriot

Centurion2016 said:


> Han
> 
> I suggest you research why the Pakistanis are buying out if date second hand Jordanian falcons rather than buy the thunder which you keep going on about in a thread about tejas.
> 
> Take the cbinease fighter out of this thread .
> 
> Build something in your own not on back of chengdu


I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.


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## zebra7

Han Patriot said:


> I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.



You are comparing apples and oranges. If the aim of India to have a fighter plane for the replacement of the MIG-21, then it could have a plane desinged by Dassault, and produced by HAL decades ago, similar to what PAF got. But the LCA program, main aim, was to build the ecosystem in the country aka the institutions, labs, and learn the technology, and lower the technological difference, and in this whole process build a plane which is named as Tejas.

As far as the transfer of the whole JF-17 tech. to screw india is concerned, its not the matter, what you supplier your tech. to pakistan, rather its the tech. which Pakistan could absorb. And before being a gignostic, think of the OEM, who got the IPR, and the amount spend on developing such tech., and no sane OEM with the brains in their head will gave them free to someone in the REAL WORLD. Max. you can gave is the product, or the tech. to produce or manufacture, which you have already given. NO Surprise to India.

And most important, LCA is just the begining, and will fulfill the lower end of IAF, and will act as the base for the 5th GEN AMCA, and remember that, the story of the LCA will Inspire many Indian generations.

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## DesiGuy1403

What's up with the neighborinos saying "failure" "failure" thousands of times?!!

Let me know any endeavor in human history that didn't start with failure.
What is important is the progress and future projection.

If humans were afraid of failures and mocked each other when some one else failed, we would still be stuck in dark ages.

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## zebra7

MilSpec said:


> I think only HAL aircraft get designations,eg: HF24, HPT36, HJT 16, HAOP 27, HUL26, HPT 32, HTT40, etc.



I think, the designation would be HAL Tejas HF-XX Mark X


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## Stephen Cohen

Han Patriot said:


> China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to.



Please elaborate and clarify 

You mean to say that you have NOT transferred the whole of JF 17 technology 
WHY is it so 

And secondly even if you did that what difference it would make to the Final product 
It would be still a JF 17


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## Roybot

Han Patriot said:


> I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.



According to the Pakistanis, JF-17 is a joint project, so they already have access to all of JF-17's technology.

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## satishkumarcsc

Han Patriot said:


> I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.



Well even if China sold out the design to Pakistan it is still second hand technology. It is very difficult to build an design house. Takes a lot of time and dedication. China took the easier way by copying the design. Indian armed forces usually would like to have more reliable systems than the Chinese. The Chinese will induct anything that is built in-house and modify it in future, but the Indian armed forces compare the in-house products with foreign systems and induct the better one or just for ma JV with them.

The Question is not the amount of Indigenous content. China is under sanctions from the world. If given the Choice the Chinese will prefer to have the Elta EL/M 2052 over the CHinese AESA any time.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Failed is only according to you, but NOT for
> Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.
> 
> But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.



Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.
.[/QUOTE]
*
as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe* 

Yes, itr was not ready for Mig-21 replacement.
*
IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed*

I think you really follow the LCA programme and knew that around 120+ LCAs are in order from IAF and the recent praises from the flying dagger's leader about the fighter performance
Confirming order for 120 is not a 'token purchase' The programme faced lots of hurdles from IAF side and uttered lots of criticism about the fighter. If you are taking those on face value, you should take recent appreciation too on face value. Many of the its problems are sorted out and if you think a light fighter capable of carrying Elta 8222 jammer and Py-5+HMD and can drop guided bombs, (BVR on testing from Feb 16) can't replace current IAF mig-21s at front line duties, then its just your assumption.

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## Centurion2016

JF17 has as muvch Pakistani content AS the 200 INDIAN BULT SU30MKI.

Its local assembly capability

Thunder is not a Pakistani indengious fighter

its a Pakistani fighter designed and built by Chengdu to Pakistani spec and needs.

THATS WHY THERE IS NOT A SINGLE THUNDER/FC1 in service in PLAAF.

Back to topic TEJAS

*NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE apologises to anybody in advance*

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## R!CK

Han Patriot said:


> Well, the favourite Indian source, wikipedia is wrong then. So let's assume 50 JF-17 versus 2 LCAs.
> Oucch, did I touch on something India doesn't have? AESA? Wow, you even know Pakistan doesn't want the AESA?



You are a funny man my dear friend, firstly u just proved u don't even know how many JF-17 block II is in-service so far. And you show the audacity to cover up your lack of knowledge of the topic by blaming wiki, lol.

Regarding AESA, I wish you knew PAF is scouting for a western avionics suite and radar for JF-17 Block III and the current Block II doesn't sport an AESA radar. So I don't really know where you got information that the Chinese AESA had interests outside China?

Your wholewhole argument is based on ur misinformation that JF-17 sports an AESA which it doesn't till date. And let me be clear, 60 JF-17 is better than 2 Tejas any day and the numbers will never be constant. Every aircraft type begins active service in low numbers, a smart man would wait couple of years to start comparing a new aircraft.

Personal advice: Use a forum to spread and gain knowledge. Don't just post wrong information just to feed personal ego.




Han Patriot said:


> Hmm, you need another 'consultant' for Kaveri?



Our research budget for jet engines is comparatively low, consultancy is a good path forward. Mayb it's better than attempting to copy/paste or reverse engineer?

Good Day!

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## Han Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well even if China sold out the design to Pakistan it is still second hand technology. It is very difficult to build an design house. Takes a lot of time and dedication. China took the easier way by copying the design. Indian armed forces usually would like to have more reliable systems than the Chinese. The Chinese will induct anything that is built in-house and modify it in future, but the Indian armed forces compare the in-house products with foreign systems and induct the better one or just for ma JV with them.
> 
> The Question is not the amount of Indigenous content. China is under sanctions from the world. If given the Choice the Chinese will prefer to have the Elta EL/M 2052 over the CHinese AESA any time.



What if I told you this, we Chinese BEG, STEAL, BORROW, REVERSE ENGINEER and INNOVATE upon those knowledge? We would do whatever it takes to be technologically independent.The easier way out is actually pay for a supposedly TOT (a couple of billion that could had fed some many starving Indians, developed a local manufacturing ecosystem), expecting a spoon feed, and cry if you can't absorb the technology. Does this remind you of someone? And also naively believing people would "transfer" those tech willingly?

And you naively think we don't compare all those technologies and just accept everything in house? If that's the case, it would have been India having a nuclear sub 20 years ago, a cryogenic engine 20 years ago and sending a human to space.

If given the choice, we would buy ELTA and reverse it and improve it and develop something new from it. But what makes you think we have no access to ELTA tech? After all these billions spent and spoonfeeding by so many foreign companies, you still can't produce something indigenous. Isn't this sheer incompetence?

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## satishkumarcsc

Han Patriot said:


> What if I told you this, we Chinese BEG, STEAL, BORROW, REVERSE ENGINEER and INNOVATE upon those knowledge? We would do whatever it takes to be technologically independent.The easier way out is actually pay for a supposedly TOT (a couple of billion that could had fed some many starving Indians, developed a local manufacturing ecosystem), expecting a spoon feed, and cry if you can't absorb the technology. Does this remind you of someone? And also naively believing people would "transfer" those tech willingly?
> 
> And you naively think we don't compare all those technologies and just accept everything in house? If that's the case, it would have been India having a nuclear sub 20 years ago, a cryogenic engine 20 years ago and sending a human to space.
> 
> If given the choice, we would buy ELTA and reverse it and improve it and develop something new from it. But what makes you think we have no access to ELTA tech? After all these billions spent and spoonfeeding by so many foreign companies, you still can't produce something indigenous. Isn't this sheer incompetence?



And that is why people do not sell to you. And Chinese systems are nowhere compared to the western systems. That is a given. I do commend the Chinese for making huge breakthroughs in different fields but this is something that the west and the Russians have done in the 80s. 

We have our own way of doing things and you have yours. This does not give you the right to criticize the efforts made by our own government using legitimate means to acquire technology.

The Americans and Russians benefited from the unethical research done by the Nazis in world war 2. You can brag about all the copying and stealing ability of yours but you still could not perfect the Jet engine technology. This is something that can only be learned through experience and the mistakes that are being made. 

You might have had a nuclear sub 20 years ago but a one that has never patrolled the oceans. You were a member of the permanent 5 in the UN security council but we were a pariah state from the start and yet we managed to get all these only through perseverance. Remember you were supported by the Soviet union with cryogenic technology and rocket technology but when they were about to give us the cryogenic engine the MTCR came into being. Yet now we are a part of the group.

And above all the attitude of reverse engineering the Elta radar is nice but unless and until you have designed the whole concept you would not know how to iron out the kinks in the system. The Chinese engineers have realized it now and have gone back to the drawing board.

And about the Chinese systems that you brag about...remember most of the countries that can afford or not under sanction will always choose a western/Russian system over the Chinese.

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## jha

satishkumarcsc said:


> And above all the attitude of reverse engineering the Elta radar is nice but unless and until you have designed the whole concept you would not know how to iron out the kinks in the system. The Chinese engineers have realized it now and have gone back to the drawing board.
> 
> And about the Chinese systems that you brag about...*remember most of the countries that can afford or not under sanction will always choose a western/Russian system over the Chinese.*



Exactly. Even Chinese Armed forces love Russian hardware over Chinese. Weird for such a developed country.

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## Indrajith

Fail or win happens only to people who try , but for people who dont do or try anything - they are safe no failure 

I am happy that some people are anxiously trying to prove that Tejas (LCA) project is a failure , everything depends upon the parameters you are comparing with , the yardstick decides the failure or win 

For me , could be we have been managing the project very badly , but that doesnt mean it is a failure , we are not Europeans or Americans we have our own limitation while en-dowering into a new field, but we had the courage , consistency and capacity 

ISRO our current star had gone through same fate , but we have come back with colors 

Failure happens only when you accept it , else it just one more learning nearing to win

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## MilSpec

@Oscar can you please remove the JF17 discussion here..

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## desimorty

> The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(_nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it_) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
> So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its *original spec* which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(_not the design or concept but as a whole product_) a partial(_if the complete term is too acerbic_) failure.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-117#ixzz4DxW9pOt7


Thats pretty harsh considering the high GQSR and the industry the LCA program built. Now the Tejas is far from a failure until lets say 2020 or beyond. 
I think HAL/DRDO have a winning concept in the LCA but a little too small. A problem only now being addressed in MK2 forced by F414 engines.
Now the question of large scale production and support will be interesting to see.
The Gripen is similar concept with similar performance and even a shared history with the LCA program.
However the difference was largely in the wings and % of domestication. HAL/DRDO had to deliver on bulk cost ie production and support to be domestic. 
The Gripen also has better response at all altitudes but the Tejas is simpler ie the wings are a single piece, lower cost, weight.
Its going to prove its self only with large scale production until then Tejas will be overshadowed by Gripen.



> Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
> If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(_foreign subcontractors, etc_) motivations to call it a success
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-117#ixzz4DxZ7tVE5


I agree but the F-20 isn't the LCA. The LCA has government backing while the F-20 like the JF-17 was designed for a foreign buyer.
Tejas production is happening, regardless. Now the JF-17 however failed as soon as the PLA completely saw the first demo of the FC-1. They new the Mig-21 flaws where higher in the JF-17 compared to the J-10 which was a little bigger and a fuel guzzler and even had engine issues. However the J-10 was a completely funded by Beijing and received the best support. PLA considers the J-10 a superior aircraft to the JF-17. JF-17 production now depends on PAF budget and Chengdu production. Not a lot of interested stakes holders any more.
That being said, I think we should wait another decade to be cynical of the Tejas since production has yet to really start.
And can you blame them?
The Tejas is coming out with a solid record in the air and superior to what the threat can and will possess for a long time.
Tejas is up against what?
J-7's whose production stopped when? 
J-8?
JF-17 which has inadequate engine and payload? 
J-10s? The only now received AESA after a 100+ run. PLA has a bigger budget. But Tejas has better higher altitude take-off and landing performance even compared to Mig-29 and Su-30s.
Su-27/30s also a 4th generation aircraft. Still in production!
F-16 in PAF inventory, have are not a threat in the the numbers they are in!
Superhornets, Raptors all pose the greatest challenge. Still the Tejas is modest defence in comparison. 
At the very least the LCA program makes the AMCA program possible.

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## Dash

[I wil"Oscar, post: 8448521, member: 14956"]Failed is only according to you, but NOT for Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.

But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.[/QUOTE]

Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.

The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(_nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it_) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its *original spec* which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(_not the design or concept but as a whole product_) a partial(_if the complete term is too acerbic_) failure.

Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(_foreign subcontractors, etc_) motivations to call it a success.[/QUOTE]

Ibwikk


Oscar said:


> Failed is only according to you, but NOT for Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.
> 
> But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.



Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.

The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(_nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it_) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its *original spec* which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(_not the design or concept but as a whole product_) a partial(_if the complete term is too acerbic_) failure.

Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(_foreign subcontractors, etc_) motivations to call it a success.[/QUOTE]

Two things, one LCA was merely not designed to be a replacement for Tejas. It was also planned d to revive the dead Marut program which actually failed due to lack of an engine. The fighter along with the program both failed, failed to make us realise that a fighter can't be designed without an engine.

because no one would give us an engine. So we planned to design both the fighter and engine.

The LCA program was going to be a failure until the kaveri program was de linked.

So for the govt and the IAF saved the program from being a failure and here you come and say it's a failure which is your and your point only but not for MOD and IAF.

IAF on its part is a tough customer just for the fact that French allolute is now flying at a height which it was not even designed for!

They want the best bang for the buck. And that's where they are driving the jet towards.

And as for mig21 replacement it will replace the migs as a low cost replacement.

Even if it's 2021 we will have a fighter ready for IAF and we will still be ahead of many countries and we are OK with that. IAF accepted it as it is and now only looking for upgrade in that plane there is no mark 1 or mark 1a. It's only Tejas.

The delay was also due to lack of political will and with this govt pushing and doing all the right things.

The program is alive and not failed.

@Oscar sorry about the readability as I'm mobile.

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## MimophantSlayer

Han Patriot said:


> After 30 years and spending billions, you produce 2 aircraft which is not even weapons rated (i think), that's not a failure? Let's not even start on whether this is an 'indian' aircraft.
> 
> You can see this kind of incompetence repeated over most Indian military programs. I shall will can may, the best, the most powerful, typical isn't it?



Hardly billions.

And please educate yourself if it is weapons ready or no.
You always have youtube and PDF to consult.
Do check this very thread, over how much Tejas can and can't do.

Indian programs succeed and fail like every other countries', just that you people think otherwise because you have developed tunnel vision over time concentrating just on our failures.
Also because some countries lie to their populace over how successful their programs really are, hence the gullible responses from the 1 cent army.



DesiGuy1403 said:


> What's up with the neighborinos saying "failure" "failure" thousands of times?!!
> 
> Let me know any endeavor in human history that didn't start with failure.
> What is important is the progress and future projection.
> 
> If humans were afraid of failures and mocked each other when some one else failed, we would still be stuck in dark ages.



See according to them they never fail.

Even if they do, these "fails" are paraded around as successes and these parochial inhabitants are happy with just that; lip service and promises.
They don't learn to doubt or question which means they will never know how authentic the said products are and will continue to live in ignorance for long periods of time.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## #hydra#

Python5 on LCA...


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## Water Car Engineer

*First IAF Tejas Flight*

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## Local_Legend

*Tejas Induction | 50 photos | Enjoy, right click & save*

https://tarmak007.blogspot.ae/2016/07/tejas-induction-50-photos-enjoy-right.html

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## GORKHALI



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## Ali Zadi

A question is LSA "Light Stealth Aircraft" a reality or a pigment of vstol.jockey imagination over at indiandefence. I know that it is suppose to be based on LCA and suppose to come before MK2 but after MK1A, correct me if I am wrong.

@PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Ali Zadi said:


> A question is LSA "Light Stealth Aircraft" a reality or a pigment of vstol.jockey imagination over at indiandefence. I know that it is suppose to be based on LCA and suppose to come before MK2 but after MK1A, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA


A concept with realistic approach and proper planning backed by bands of numbers can be a good project.

At first i wont lie that i did nt buy into the idea but i did scratch my brains and talked with numerous industrial folks. and answer is surprisingly a strong possibility. Of course it derives a lot from proven designs world over and wishes to use pvt sector and some investors. Vstol even tried to rope in Israeli folks whom he did give a presentation. 

His whole concept , the methodology, the way he has planned all are interesting. He had even talked about changing LSA Ghost from single engined EJ230 powered jet to Kaveri powered single engined jet to HTFE35 dual engined jet. In simple words, he has talked about a possibility where indigenous content can be easily 75-80% plus inclusive of critical engine tech. and use a production number which can give 3+ squadrons a year easily. Now these are steep claims but then US MIC with investments have been able to produce 40-50+ one jet type a year for multiple decades. And he is not reinveting the wheel rather he is focused more as a integrator.

His initial investment requirements as well as timeline to deliver prototypes all seems to be aggressive but then again he is emphasizing that designs are already proven and he is integrating it for assembling purposes.

I for one support such initiatives. The reason being such unique projects may pave way to future time where Indian pvt sector may come up with new research and innovative solutions in various fields and may showcase such concepts in front of services and fight out the new RFPs.

When we look at US MIC, one of their biggest plus point is amount of work and research done by various majors like Boeing, LM , NG, etc etc who keeps on coming out with concepts which can radically alter the future course of aerial warfare and provide the leading edge to USA air campaigns.

To me LSA Ghost as a single engined or twin engined fighter jet or even a jet powered UCAV is one such project which can be beneficial for our country's MIC. I see potential Tata's, Mahindra's, Ambani's, etc to join this new segment of creating defence stuff from scratch with inhouse design and capabilities.

The rest is with DM MP and MOD.. Hope they accord the decision.. At least that gives a fair trial and a potential to do something unique.

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## Ali Zadi

PARIKRAMA said:


> A......




Thank you that has cleared a lot in my mind for one I was imaging places that missiles could reside back of the air vents on the LCA. I have seen your posts there also and I trust you as a source so this all makes the most sense.. cheers

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## Blue Marlin

#hydra# said:


> Python5 on LCA...


dont be greedy and post the pics.......

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## ultron

1 plane forms the first squadron?


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## Sri

Blue Marlin said:


> dont be greedy and post the pics.......


http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02/lca-tejas-sports-python-derby.html
Some latest updates on python 5 - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.html


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## John Reese

ultron said:


> 1 plane forms the first squadron?



4 planes


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## Blue Marlin

Sri said:


> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02/lca-tejas-sports-python-derby.html
> Some latest updates on python 5 - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.html


thats a cg of a python on a lca, the first pic shows the real thing next to the lca.


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## Sri

Blue Marlin said:


> thats a cg of a python on a lca, the first pic shows the real thing next to the lca.


Yeah, integration is planned by end of year, as FOC is not a hindrance to production so no issues. They have enough time to integrate Derby and Python 5.


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## MilSpec

Please don't post comparisons on this thread, it gets derailed in mins. 
-thanks 



fsayed said:


> Thunder Vs Tejas : Tejas still a Better option claims new report
> 
> @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @anant_s @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair
> @TejasMk3
> @jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @PARIKRAMA @egodoc222 @DesiGuy1403 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @MilSpec @Spectre @Windjammer @Horus @Arsalan @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular
> @MilSpec @Spectre
> @Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs
> @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @randomradio @Guynextdoor2 @2800 @calmDown@all
> 
> 
> http://idrw.org/source/

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## fsayed

The Indian Air Force (IAF) finally inducted its first batch of Tejas multi-role fighters last week. Produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Tejas was under development for about 30 years, and it is the second homegrown fighter in the IAF’s history, the first being the HF-21 Marut. The Tejas is envisaged to replace the IAF’s legacy MiG-21bis fighters.

There is not much to add except the fact that the Tejas is a potent and fully capable lightweight fighter. In fact, it even got a bit of intriguing fanfare from Dawn News (a leading Pakistani newspaper), which stated that the HAL Tejas was “considered superior to counterparts like the JF-17.”

Sadly, Dawn did not add much to qualify the statement, which has fed into a lot of noise and one-sided chiding from South Asian enthusiasts. The following is not a conventional comparison, nor is there a conclusion of which one is better. Rather, Quwa’s position that is that the two platforms are broadly comparable, but excel over one another in context, i.e. specific areas.

The Tejas is already equipped with a helmet mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system in the form of the Elbit DASH. In fact, a fair assessment would also recognize that the Tejas’ radar, the Elbit EL/M-2032, is a credible and widely appreciated system. India also spent more time on airframe development, hence the reason why the Tejas entered service at a time when the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is fielding three full JF-17 squadrons. In exchange for its development time, the Tejas enters the field with a fully digital fly-by-wire (FBW) flight system, a heavy use of composite materials, and a credible turbofan engine (i.e. GE404).

Today, the Tejas is the better equipped fighter. However, this does not mean that is the decisively superiorplatform. To suggest as much would be to claim that the PAF has capped all development of the JF-17, and as such, has no plans to configure the JF-17 with subsystems that are comparable to those on current and future Tejas variants. Moreover, the better unit does not mean its rival is not comparable, which is a far more important metric considering nothing remains static over the course of time.

The JF-17’s development was driven by necessity, but it was also encumbered by Pakistan’s problems. In terms of the former, the JF-17 was designed from the onset as a platform that would mainstream beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air capability across the backbone of the PAF fighter fleet. It has achieved that objective thanks to the SD-10/A active radar-guided BVRAAM. Unfortunately, Pakistan’s problems – i.e. the economic mess thrown up by corruption and neglect – meant the JF-17 could not enter service with the ideal set of subsystems. For example, the JF-17 does not have a HMD/S system (but it will in the future).

Astute readers (especially those familiar with the JF-17) will notice that while the Tejas – inducted in 2016 – is fully equipped, the JF-17 – inducted in 2011 – is being improved via relatively frequent iterative cycles. In other words, the PAF is gradually adding modern subsystems – such as HMD/S – whilst also enabling the fighter to accrue real-world usage and experience (which will also feed back into the iterative cycle). It is also enabling an increasing number of PAF pilots and personnel operate within a modern air warfare environment, i.e. one built upon multi-role fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, tactical data-link, etc. Lessons in these areas will feed into further development as well.

The advantages found in Tejas today – e.g. composite materials, HMD/S and others – will make it to the JF-17 Block-III, which will also incorporate systems found on planned Tejas versions, e.g. an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Infrared search and track (IRST) and improved turbofan engines (e.g. RD-33MK) are also being considered. As long as it remains in production, there will always be more advanced JF-17 blocks, each incorporating the current system of its day.

Of course, it is not all promise with the JF-17. The Thunder does possess a few advantages as well, and these – ironically perhaps – are borne from the very problems that encumbered its development. Difficulties in finding funds and overseas vendors shaped the JF-17 into an affordable and accessible modern day fighter. If Pakistan can acquire the modern platform alongside its weapons and subsystems, then chances are, so can almost any other air force using fighter aircraft. Should Pakistan succeed in making HMD/S, 5th-gen within visual range air-to-air missiles (WVRAAM), modern EW/ECM suites, and AESA radars accessible for itself, then it will have made them accessible for many other air forces as well.

The implication of this for some countries, such as Nigeria and potentially others, could be immense. Just consider Nigeria, which is one of Sub Saharan Africa’s top economies. That country does not have many foreign vendors willing to sell it sensitive equipment, and its funding constraints limit its ability to readily pursue the few existing avenues. However, with the JF-17 – which it is poised to begin inducting soon – the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) will possess a platform that is equipped with the same kind of air-to-air and air-to-surface weaponry found on any other current generation platform.

Furthermore, the NAF can ride upon the JF-17’s developmental work for the PAF, which would mean incorporating additional subsystems – such as HMD/S and a 5th-gen WVRAAM – without being beset with separate integration and expensive long-term support costs. With the exception of South Africa, Botswana and possibly other JF-17 users, no other country in Sub Saharan Africa would have a platform that has a development roadmap that is uniquely suited for countries with political and economic constraints.

Despite this, one might take a jab at the notion that the JF-17 would do best in certain environments, such as Sub Saharan Africa. Fair enough, but it does not change the reality that the JF-17 platform is meant to compete with the Tejas (and others), yet it has been developed without the luxury of free-flowing technology access or strong funding mechanisms. Yes, India is to be commended for having such capacities, but unlike a fighter plane, those traits are not easily transferrable to others. If the JF-17 is broadly comparable, but decisively more affordable and accessible, then it is a success. Whereas the Tejas would fare better in comparison to the JF-17 in the eyes of Bahrain or Jordan, the Tejas would have to compete against the likes of Saab and Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for those markets. The JF-17 on the other hand could present a compelling case for Nigeria, Namibia, Zambia, Azerbaijan, etc.

A lesson in the above is that it is easy to move goalposts as a means to determine ‘success’ or ‘superiority.’ In some respects, such as viability for countries clearly aligned with the U.S. or new/prospective NATO powers, the Tejas is the better option. Others, such as those looking for a modern multi-role system with minimal risk of third party regulatory hurdles (over avionics or engine), or a tighter budget, will prefer the JF-17. Simplistic comparisons do little to advance discussion and generate valuable knowledge, but nuanced case studies on specific areas could be helpful to determine the viability of one platform over another, albeit within specific cases.



MilSpec said:


> Please don't post comparisons on this thread, it gets derailed in mins.
> -thanks


Bro it's a balance article u must read

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## anant_s

fsayed said:


> Thunder Vs Tejas



Thats a taboo word @fsayed 
Its best to avoid such debates. Only winners here are the internet service providers

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## MilSpec

fsayed said:


> The Indian Air Force (IAF) finally inducted its first batch of Tejas multi-role fighters last week. Produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Tejas was under development for about 30 years, and it is the second homegrown fighter in the IAF’s history, the first being the HF-21 Marut. The Tejas is envisaged to replace the IAF’s legacy MiG-21bis fighters.
> 
> There is not much to add except the fact that the Tejas is a potent and fully capable lightweight fighter. In fact, it even got a bit of intriguing fanfare from Dawn News (a leading Pakistani newspaper), which stated that the HAL Tejas was “considered superior to counterparts like the JF-17.”
> 
> Sadly, Dawn did not add much to qualify the statement, which has fed into a lot of noise and one-sided chiding from South Asian enthusiasts. The following is not a conventional comparison, nor is there a conclusion of which one is better. Rather, Quwa’s position that is that the two platforms are broadly comparable, but excel over one another in context, i.e. specific areas.
> 
> The Tejas is already equipped with a helmet mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system in the form of the Elbit DASH. In fact, a fair assessment would also recognize that the Tejas’ radar, the Elbit EL/M-2032, is a credible and widely appreciated system. India also spent more time on airframe development, hence the reason why the Tejas entered service at a time when the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is fielding three full JF-17 squadrons. In exchange for its development time, the Tejas enters the field with a fully digital fly-by-wire (FBW) flight system, a heavy use of composite materials, and a credible turbofan engine (i.e. GE404).
> 
> Today, the Tejas is the better equipped fighter. However, this does not mean that is the decisively superiorplatform. To suggest as much would be to claim that the PAF has capped all development of the JF-17, and as such, has no plans to configure the JF-17 with subsystems that are comparable to those on current and future Tejas variants. Moreover, the better unit does not mean its rival is not comparable, which is a far more important metric considering nothing remains static over the course of time.
> 
> The JF-17’s development was driven by necessity, but it was also encumbered by Pakistan’s problems. In terms of the former, the JF-17 was designed from the onset as a platform that would mainstream beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air capability across the backbone of the PAF fighter fleet. It has achieved that objective thanks to the SD-10/A active radar-guided BVRAAM. Unfortunately, Pakistan’s problems – i.e. the economic mess thrown up by corruption and neglect – meant the JF-17 could not enter service with the ideal set of subsystems. For example, the JF-17 does not have a HMD/S system (but it will in the future).
> 
> Astute readers (especially those familiar with the JF-17) will notice that while the Tejas – inducted in 2016 – is fully equipped, the JF-17 – inducted in 2011 – is being improved via relatively frequent iterative cycles. In other words, the PAF is gradually adding modern subsystems – such as HMD/S – whilst also enabling the fighter to accrue real-world usage and experience (which will also feed back into the iterative cycle). It is also enabling an increasing number of PAF pilots and personnel operate within a modern air warfare environment, i.e. one built upon multi-role fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, tactical data-link, etc. Lessons in these areas will feed into further development as well.
> 
> The advantages found in Tejas today – e.g. composite materials, HMD/S and others – will make it to the JF-17 Block-III, which will also incorporate systems found on planned Tejas versions, e.g. an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Infrared search and track (IRST) and improved turbofan engines (e.g. RD-33MK) are also being considered. As long as it remains in production, there will always be more advanced JF-17 blocks, each incorporating the current system of its day.
> 
> Of course, it is not all promise with the JF-17. The Thunder does possess a few advantages as well, and these – ironically perhaps – are borne from the very problems that encumbered its development. Difficulties in finding funds and overseas vendors shaped the JF-17 into an affordable and accessible modern day fighter. If Pakistan can acquire the modern platform alongside its weapons and subsystems, then chances are, so can almost any other air force using fighter aircraft. Should Pakistan succeed in making HMD/S, 5th-gen within visual range air-to-air missiles (WVRAAM), modern EW/ECM suites, and AESA radars accessible for itself, then it will have made them accessible for many other air forces as well.
> 
> The implication of this for some countries, such as Nigeria and potentially others, could be immense. Just consider Nigeria, which is one of Sub Saharan Africa’s top economies. That country does not have many foreign vendors willing to sell it sensitive equipment, and its funding constraints limit its ability to readily pursue the few existing avenues. However, with the JF-17 – which it is poised to begin inducting soon – the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) will possess a platform that is equipped with the same kind of air-to-air and air-to-surface weaponry found on any other current generation platform.
> 
> Furthermore, the NAF can ride upon the JF-17’s developmental work for the PAF, which would mean incorporating additional subsystems – such as HMD/S and a 5th-gen WVRAAM – without being beset with separate integration and expensive long-term support costs. With the exception of South Africa, Botswana and possibly other JF-17 users, no other country in Sub Saharan Africa would have a platform that has a development roadmap that is uniquely suited for countries with political and economic constraints.
> 
> Despite this, one might take a jab at the notion that the JF-17 would do best in certain environments, such as Sub Saharan Africa. Fair enough, but it does not change the reality that the JF-17 platform is meant to compete with the Tejas (and others), yet it has been developed without the luxury of free-flowing technology access or strong funding mechanisms. Yes, India is to be commended for having such capacities, but unlike a fighter plane, those traits are not easily transferrable to others. If the JF-17 is broadly comparable, but decisively more affordable and accessible, then it is a success. Whereas the Tejas would fare better in comparison to the JF-17 in the eyes of Bahrain or Jordan, the Tejas would have to compete against the likes of Saab and Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for those markets. The JF-17 on the other hand could present a compelling case for Nigeria, Namibia, Zambia, Azerbaijan, etc.
> 
> A lesson in the above is that it is easy to move goalposts as a means to determine ‘success’ or ‘superiority.’ In some respects, such as viability for countries clearly aligned with the U.S. or new/prospective NATO powers, the Tejas is the better option. Others, such as those looking for a modern multi-role system with minimal risk of third party regulatory hurdles (over avionics or engine), or a tighter budget, will prefer the JF-17. Simplistic comparisons do little to advance discussion and generate valuable knowledge, but nuanced case studies on specific areas could be helpful to determine the viability of one platform over another, albeit within specific cases.
> 
> 
> Bro it's a balance article u must read


I just skimmed through it and it seems to be written by an amateur.

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## fsayed

MilSpec said:


> I just skimmed through it and it seems to be written by an amateur.


OK bro I'll keep this in my mind next time

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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> thats a cg of a python on a lca, the first pic shows the real thing next to the lca.





Sri said:


> Yeah, integration is planned by end of year, as FOC is not a hindrance to production so no issues. They have enough time to integrate Derby and Python 5.


Python-V intergration shouldn't be an issue especially with the R-73E already intergrated, the Derby intergration was going to be more of a challenge and that has already been proven succesful.

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## Blue Marlin

Abingdonboy said:


> Python-V intergration shouldn't be an issue especially with the R-73E already intergrated, the Derby intergration was going to be more of a challenge and that has already been proven succesful.


is there any other isreali weapon already successfully intregated on the lca?
do note the r73 is russain and the python is israeli

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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> is there any other isreali weapon already successfully intregated on the lca?
> do note the r73 is russain and the python is israeli


The Derby has already been intergrated as have the Israeli LITENING LDP, EL/M-2032 and DASH III HMSD. The ADA team chose pass the comparatively more difficult Derby intergration process first and will now work on the Python-V.

There shouldn't be much of an issue at all.

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## Blue Marlin

Abingdonboy said:


> The Derby has already been intergrated as have the Israeli LITENING LDP, EL/M-2032 and DASH III HMSD. The ADA team chose pass the comparatively more difficult Derby intergration process first and will now work on the Python-V.
> 
> There shouldn't be much of an issue at all.


ohh.... ok in that case it wont be a problem at all then since they have intregated an isreali weapon (derby) before.
what of the development of the astra?

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## Arsalan

MilSpec said:


> Please don't post comparisons on this thread, it gets derailed in mins.
> -thanks


Thanks for doing this.
If it was me making this post there would have been super patriotic replies and the thread in shambles!
Thanks.
Furthermore, the report is clearly written by an amateur enthusiast with little to know knowledge of the systems but the fact that he is an Indian and everything India gets is to be proven "mighty".

EDIT: Oh now i see you have shared these views as well. Thanks again!

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## PARIKRAMA

The original source of this article is this http://quwa.org/2016/07/03/discussion-thunder-tejas/

Its written by @Quwa research. - Bilal Khan may be able to share more.. 

Normally such threads should not be opened or added in any sticky part bcz the highly patriotic folks of both sides would derail the sticky. In case if it has to open for a sound discussion, check for another section with more of limited access like seniors section.. but i do feel directed versus thread should be banned outright.

Bilal a good effort from Quwa but you know for sure that folks from both sides will be over run by emotions rather quickly. The comments section in the link shows that part.. It will be same like in PDF..

May i suggest in case you really wish to do such introspection, separate both programs and then write/publish.. it will make more sense to avoid the baisedness angle. Of course you can expand the whole paper supposing say in case Kaveri becomes operational (via Safran Rafale offset), indigenous missiles Astra (when we have our own seeker instead of AGAT ones) etc. Implying like Block 3 , supposing in case LCA Mk1A also gets these upgrade packages then there could be a lot more favorable from military perspective as well as Military Industrial Complex perspective. A similar view of JF17 program would also showcase what you folks may miss out and why perhaps a tie up with TFX (which is too early as of now) or J series (which is matured already in terms of program) with advantages/disadvantages etc..

Just my thots really..

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## zebra7

MilSpec said:


> I just skimmed through it and it seems to be written by an amateur.



He is an enthusiast.


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## zebra7

Blue Marlin said:


> ohh.... ok in that case it wont be a problem at all then since they have intregated an isreali weapon (derby) before.
> what of the development of the astra?

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## Blue Marlin

zebra7 said:


>


im asking of it development not of its specs...... how long will it take for it be inducted on the mk2, mki, lca.


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## zebra7

Blue Marlin said:


> im asking of it development not of its specs...... how long will it take for it be inducted on the mk2, mki, lca.



I might be wrong, but ASTRA-1 is amost ready, and going field trial, and should be produced in 1-3 years after IAF placed ordered for Astra-1 from DRDO.

Astra-2 however will takes some times. There are many indian pvt companies emergies, and now the development of the Desi Ku band Seeker is on, which will replace the Russian AGAT seeker, which is produced by DRDO with full TOT.

There is no news or articles that support any IR seeker development carried out by DRDO or any pvt indian company, and may be for passive mode when inducted in the Astra-- India will seek those technology from the Israel or France.

Buddy mode of the ASTRA, which provides it the capability to be guided to the location Cued by other aircraft such as another MKI or AEW EC or UAV or would provide advantage to IAF and its tactics, such as LCA remaining passive and in forward position and passive and MKI at the back with active BARS illuminating the target, and providing target updates via Operational Data Link ODL-2.

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## Agent_47

Mark my words, there will be a new air launched WVR missile based on DRDO QRSAM.
May be even with IR head.

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## zebra7

I had one question regarding the choise of the BVR and WVR missile for Tejas.

How many of you thinks, that the choise of Derby and Python 5 is a good choice that the MICA IR/RF for Tejas. I think, the choice could be better if we would have gone for MICA path, making it a common weapon for Mirage UPG, Rafale and LCA Tejas, also MICA is a proven weapon in the European environment, with high Kill probability in an electronic warfare environment.

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## Stephen Cohen

zebra7 said:


> I had one question regarding the choise of the BVR and WVR missile for Tejas.
> 
> How many of you thinks, that the choise of Derby and Python 5 is a good choice that the MICA IR/RF for Tejas. I think, the choice could be better if we would have gone for MICA path, making it a common weapon for Mirage UPG, Rafale and LCA Tejas, also MICA is a proven weapon in the European environment, with high Kill probability in an electronic warfare environment.



LCA has an Israeli radar that is Elta 2032 

Missiles have to be INTEGRATED with radars ; you need source codes for that 

Israel will NOT allow MICA missiles ;--It is BUSINESS -- as simple as that 

But Israel has accepted integration of India's ASTRA because it is our own missile

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## Agent_47

zebra7 said:


> I had one question regarding the choise of the BVR and WVR missile for Tejas.
> 
> How many of you thinks, that the choise of Derby and Python 5 is a good choice that the MICA IR/RF for Tejas. I think, the choice could be better if we would have gone for MICA path, making it a common weapon for Mirage UPG, Rafale and LCA Tejas, also MICA is a proven weapon in the European environment, with high Kill probability in an electronic warfare environment.



Israel FCS, integration would be easier. 
Derby/Python 5 combo is equally proven if not more. 
Cheaper, considering we spend around $1 billion for 500 MICAs.
MICA is not upgraded while Derby ER is available.

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## Stephen Cohen

Agent_47 said:


> Israel FCS, integration would be easier.
> 
> Derby/Python 5 combo is equally proven if not more.
> 
> Cheaper, considering we spend around $1 billion for 500 MICAs.
> 
> MICA is not upgraded while Derby ER is available.



I read some where that Israel even refused R 77 integration 

As long as we need Israeli radars we will have to use Derby and Python 5

And now we are going for Israeli AESA 2052

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## zebra7

Agent_47 said:


> Israel FCS, integration would be easier.
> Derby/Python 5 combo is equally proven if not more.
> Cheaper, considering we spend around $1 billion for 500 MICAs.
> MICA is not upgraded while Derby ER is available.




Technically I feels MICA is better, that Derby both PK wise and propulsion wise
There have been developent of upgrades of MICA going as we speek
One Missile doing both BVR and WVR, means MICA could also be fired at the enemy in very close distance.
For MICA IR, there is no need for the Radar for the illuminating the target, which is what LCA Tejas as an interceptor will be doing, when it have to follow the invading enemy plane from the tail.
MICA IR also acts as IR passive sensor, when on board on the host plane, and could suffix the lack of IR Sensor though low performance.
Higher number means low cost, and comonality means low maintainance cost.

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## kaykay

zebra7 said:


> I had one question regarding the choise of the BVR and WVR missile for Tejas.
> 
> How many of you thinks, that the choise of Derby and Python 5 is a good choice that the MICA IR/RF for Tejas. I think, the choice could be better if we would have gone for MICA path, making it a common weapon for Mirage UPG, Rafale and LCA Tejas, also MICA is a proven weapon in the European environment, with high Kill probability in an electronic warfare environment.


I think Derby-ER+ Python-5 combo for Tejas is better. Reason being, Tejas mk1 has an hybrid radar which is based on an Israeli mmr and also even the Tejas mk1A will have Israeli AESA radar and thus Israeli weapons are better suited. Not to mention that Derby-ER is 100+ km bvr missile and highly advance one at that( with its 'second kick' at terminal phase, It ensure its 'No Escape Zone'(NEZ) to its full range which is 100 km, which is similar to the 'NEZ' of Meteor, though Meteor's range is greater).
Python-5 is also good for its role....Its only comparable to Iris-t, Assram and Aim-9x.

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## zebra7

Stephen Cohen said:


> I read some where that Israel even refused R 77 integration
> 
> As long as we need Israeli radars we will have to use Derby and Python 5
> 
> And now we are going for Israeli AESA 2052



What about Astra then, oops it also uses the Agat Seeker 

I think, they will ask for the cost of the integration of the R77.

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## Agent_47

zebra7 said:


> Technically I feels MICA is better, that Derby both PK wise and propulsion wise


Subjective, Python/Derby combo is designed for relatively close combat which fits the LCA role.



zebra7 said:


> There have been developent of upgrades of MICA going as we speek


Not in production



zebra7 said:


> One Missile doing both BVR and WVR, means MICA could also be fired at the enemy in very close distance.
> 
> For MICA IR, there is no need for the Radar for the illuminating the target, which is what LCA Tejas as an interceptor will be doing, when it have to follow the invading enemy plane from the tail.
> 
> MICA IR also acts as IR passive sensor, when on board on the host plane, and could suffix the lack of IR Sensor though low performance.
> 
> Higher number means low cost, and comonality means low maintainance cost.


integration and procurement costs out weights all these in favor of Python/Derby.



zebra7 said:


> What about Astra then, oops it also uses the Agat Seeker
> 
> I think, they will ask for the cost of the integration of the R77.


Dude, seeker is part of the missile system. Integration of the seeker to the missile is already done. Now we can plug the missile anywhere we want.

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## rockstarIN

zebra7 said:


> I had one question regarding the choise of the BVR and WVR missile for Tejas.
> 
> How many of you thinks, that the choise of Derby and Python 5 is a good choice that the MICA IR/RF for Tejas. I think, the choice could be better if we would have gone for MICA path, making it a common weapon for Mirage UPG, Rafale and LCA Tejas, also MICA is a proven weapon in the European environment, with high Kill probability in an electronic warfare environment.




IMO Derby&Py-5 combo is better than MICA for Tejas, coz,


Cost of MICA is very high as you know we paid too much amount for MICA series weapons.
Derby(current version)is less weighted than traditional BVRs. Its range is less than ARMRAM/R-77 as it is good for a light fighter. Your radar can track boggies away from 70-100 km but the BVR engagement range will always within 45 km range. It was kept in mind while making the same. The the range is enough for the real engagement provided the kill zone is higher than other BVRs. 

It can be fired as a short range missile fro very short range without creating any problem for the launch platform. 

Derby ER is coming with greater range and widening no escape zone.
ELTA 2032 & 2052 or even DRDO AESA integration will be easy.
Lock on before and after launch.

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## zebra7

rockstarIN said:


> IMO Derby&Py-5 combo is better than MICA for Tejas, coz,
> 
> 
> Cost of MICA is very high as you know we paid too much amount for MICA series weapons.
> Derby(current version)is less weighted than traditional BVRs. Its range is less than ARMRAM/R-77 as it is good for a light fighter. Your radar can track boggies away from 70-100 km but the BVR engagement range will always within 45 km range. It was kept in mind while making the same. The the range is enough for the real engagement provided the kill zone is higher than other BVRs.
> 
> It can be fired as a short range missile fro very short range without creating any problem for the launch platform.
> 
> Derby ER is coming with greater range and widening no escape zone.
> ELTA 2032 & 2052 or even DRDO AESA integration will be easy.
> Lock on before and after launch.



Good attempt 


What is the cost of the MICA IR/RF and the I-Derby-ER and Python-5 ? Don't mix the upgradation package of the Mirrage 2000 H of IAF, because that involved a lot, and many tech. from the Rafale like MDPU.
Derby wt is 120 KG, where as MICA wt 110 kg. And for the Range do you really believe Range Matters, and not PK, NEZ, Proximity Fuse, Top attack profile, Resistance to high electronic jamming profile.
MICA could be used for very short range, high bore angle, and long range fire and forget mode.
For greater range R-77 PD is there, which is heavy, but cheaper.
Integration do not need to have the whole source code, rather the part of the code.
LOBL, LOAL is also with MICA



Han Patriot said:


> You have to ask permission from another country to integrate a missile on your 'indigenous' plane? Seriously....



Yes, but when you have 120 Radar order confirm for LCA mk-1, 40 for MK-2, Jaguar, Early warning systems, MF Stars, AEW EC, Barak, Spyder, Spike, Spice order in large qty, dosen't it qualify for just a small request as token.

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## kaykay

@zebra7 check out this thread by @DrSomnath999 for more info...I am sure you'll find it interesting. Also before comparison, just remember that Tejas has an Israeli radar and many other subsystems. Also one Mica cost us 2.7-2.8 million dollar a unit, clearly very expensive.

https://defence.pk/threads/french-mica-em-ir-missile-vs-israeli-derby-em-python-5-ir-missile.180044/

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## zebra7

kaykay said:


> @zebra7 check out this thread by @DrSomnath999 for more info...I am sure you'll find it interesting. Also before comparison, just remember that Tejas has an Israeli radar and many other subsystems. Also one Mica cost us 2.7-2.8 million dollar a unit, clearly very expensive.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/french-mica-em-ir-missile-vs-israeli-derby-em-python-5-ir-missile.180044/



Thanks I was thinking of creating a poll, but before a poll, a discussion with pros and crons.

Its already decided that Derby-ER and Python will be on the Tejas, but the discussion I raised is just to have a friendly debate purpose. Thanks.

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## #hydra#

Agent_47 said:


> Mark my words, there will be a new air launched WVR missile based on DRDO QRSAM.
> May be even with IR head.


Source


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## rockstarIN

zebra7 said:


> Good attempt
> 
> 
> What is the cost of the MICA IR/RF and the I-Derby-ER and Python-5 ? Don't mix the upgradation package of the Mirrage 2000 H of IAF, because that involved a lot, and many tech. from the Rafale like MDPU.
> Derby wt is 120 KG, where as MICA wt 110 kg. And for the Range do you really believe Range Matters, and not PK, NEZ, Proximity Fuse, Top attack profile, Resistance to high electronic jamming profile.
> MICA could be used for very short range, high bore angle, and long range fire and forget mode.
> For greater range R-77 PD is there, which is heavy, but cheaper.
> Integration do not need to have the whole source code, rather the part of the code.
> LOBL, LOAL is also with MICA
> 
> 
> 
> .



I-derby-ER offers 80% of the Meteor performance with 1/3 rd of the cost of Meteor, thats what Rafael advertised regarding it. And it is very well known that French stuff is always highly priced. The weapon deal for M2k was separate than up gradation package, just like Rafale deal where the is always break up.
Range is always connected to NEZ.
Derby could be used for very short range, high bore angle, and long range fire and forget mode *with less cost *and introduction of I-Derby will close the gap with Meteor whereas French is going for Meteor.
We will no longer use R-77 in future, the same will be replaced by low cost astra Mk-2.

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## zebra7

rockstarIN said:


> I-derby-ER offers 80% of the Meteor performance with 1/3 rd of the cost of Meteor, thats what Rafael advertised regarding it. And it is very well known that French stuff is always highly priced. The weapon deal for M2k was separate than up gradation package, just like Rafale deal where the is always break up.
> Range is always connected to NEZ.
> Derby could be used for very short range, high bore angle, and long range fire and forget mode *with less cost *and introduction of I-Derby will close the gap with Meteor whereas French is going for Meteor.
> We will no longer use R-77 in future, the same will be replaced by low cost astra Mk-2.



I-derby-ER offer 80% performance is the claim of the Rafael.
NEZ should be more connected with the Kinetic energy left in the BVR and the Active radar of the Missile itself, and the one which have broader/wider radar coverage of the onboard radar of the missile
Derby is designed as BVR aka for long range target, making it sleek, low drag to cover the distance so that at the end of the final aim, it sustain the kinetic energy sustained to make the kill, whereas WVR is designed for short range. In Case of MICA french tried to combine both into one, taking all the experience and tech from the Magic and Matra missile. It was also desined to be able to equip any fighter plane easily, and put less stress and drags on the host fighter plane
We are very well using R-77, and are uprading it whose shell life have expired, and is the primrary BVR of MIG-29, MIG 21, Su-30 MKI.
Astra MK-2 should be easily 4-5 years away from mass production.

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## PARIKRAMA

Tejas getting ready for sortie

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> Tejas getting ready for sortie



Pylons need a lot of work...


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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Pylons need a lot of work...


Why?


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## satishkumarcsc

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Pylons need a lot of work...



I rather say actuators....

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/755366781582184448
And majority of that consists of Engine , Radar dome , refueling probe , Data Buses , and missiles.

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## 4GTejasBVR

satishkumarcsc said:


> I rather say actuators....


I think we signed make in India deal for actuators already. Hope soon we will see Tejas will have actuators for multiple missiles like other fighters .

India should take a cue from Gripin on this regards



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/755366781582184448
> And majority of that consists of Engine , Radar dome , refueling probe , Data Buses , and missiles.



70% indigenous is really remarkable for modern fighters ... How much is Swedish indigenization for Gripin? More be like 80? Due to their radar ?


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## GuardianRED

4GTejasBVR said:


> I think we signed make in India deal for actuators already. Hope soon we will see Tejas will have actuators for multiple missiles like other fighters .
> 
> India should take a cue from Gripin on this regards
> 
> 
> 
> 70% indigenous is really remarkable for modern fighters ... How much is Swedish indigenization for Gripin? More be like 80? Due to their radar ?


They are Called Pylons (the one carry the weapon or fuel tank) not actuators!


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## Han Patriot

R!CK said:


> You are an interesting person. Your question is not an attempt to improve your knowledge but to polish your ego and mocking skills.
> 
> To clear your question, when you don't copy/paste or reverse engineer: You ask Permission from the OEM  But general rule of thumb is you need partial codes of FCR for missile integration otherwise you pay and get the missile integrated by the OEM.
> 
> Good Day!


Don't you think having no control over the FCR is a risky gamble? How do you know if the CIA/MOSSAD won't just shut down your FCR and you can't fire a single missile?


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## satishkumarcsc

Han Patriot said:


> Don't you think having no control over the FCR is a risky gamble? How do you know if the CIA/MOSSAD won't just shut down your FCR and you can't fire a single missile?



We are not fighting the United states of America or Israel.

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## Ali Zadi

The real problem with Tejas is similar to F35 which is "High stall speed" and dog fighting ability. Delta wings introduce both these problem's so does that mean Tejas will excel in BVR similar to F35?

J10 for example has very good low speed performance and is technically very similar under the skin.


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## satishkumarcsc

Ali Zadi said:


> The real problem with Tejas is similar to F35 which is "High stall speed" and dog fighting ability. Delta wings introduce both these problem's so does that mean Tejas will excel in BVR similar to F35?
> 
> J10 for example has very good low speed performance and is technically very similar under the skin.



Well there are 2 ways to go on about dogfighting
1)Fighting in Horizontal
2) Fighting in vertical

The Delta wing excells in instantaneous turn rates and hence it has better point and shoot capability. It has better climb rate compared to the conventional tail plane lay out. But the deltas also have the tendency to bleed energy when in a a sustained turn. To compensate this maneuvers like the rolling scissors, Immelman's turn were employed while fighting the conventional layout. The delta wing also has a large surface are and hence can carry more fuel compared to the aircraft with conventional layouts.

With an AoA af 26 degrees I think the Tejas can take on any of the aircraft in the inventory of the countries whom we are likely to face a war with.

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## kaykay

Ali Zadi said:


> The real problem with Tejas is similar to F35 which is "High stall speed" and dog fighting ability. Delta wings introduce both these problem's so does that mean Tejas will excel in BVR similar to F35?
> 
> J10 for example has very good low speed performance and is technically very similar under the skin.


That depends. Delta wings perform better in supersonic conditions. Anyway with HMDS and 5th generation Python-5, Tejas is second to none in dog fighting.

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## Allen Iverson

satishkumarcsc said:


> he Delta wing excells in instantaneous turn rates and hence it has better point and shoot capability. It has better climb rate compared to the conventional tail plane lay out. But the deltas also have the tendency to bleed energy when in a a sustained turn. To compensate this maneuvers like the rolling scissors, Immelman's turn were employed while fighting the conventional layout. The delta wing also has a large surface are and hence can carry more fuel compared to the aircraft with conventional layouts.
> 
> With an AoA af 26 degrees I think the Tejas can take on any of the aircraft in the inventory of the countries whom we are likely to face a war with.


Dear Sathish,

With all due respects, If what you have quoted, is out of enthusiasm it is really appreciable the time you took to learn these terms.. But talking on pure technical terms, your replies doesn't relate to one another..
1. what you said in the first paragraph is correct.. Not only they bleed energy,(bleeding energy is secondary because Turn out of climb is a slow speed manoeuvre) they tend to go for a compressor stall and to avoid this, right full rudder with stickforward or left rudder with stick backward is employed which will eventually take the plane into a barrel roll..

2. Then you spoke about angle of attack.. angle of attack of tejas at 26 Degrees which is good, but even JF is inspired with Mig21 design with a low 60 Degree delta wing and it can also do slow speed turns at high altitudes without much Fuss.. So I think, just Angle of attack will not make tejas superior.. There are other aspects which makes tejas superior but it is not fit to be discussed here..

I have Just pointed out the contradictions dear.. No intentions to troll you.


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## satishkumarcsc

Allen Iverson said:


> Dear Sathish,
> 
> With all due respects, If what you have quoted, is out of enthusiasm it is really appreciable the time you took to learn these terms.. But talking on pure technical terms, your replies doesn't relate to one another..
> 1. what you said in the first paragraph is correct.. Not only they bleed energy,(bleeding energy is secondary because Turn out of climb is a slow speed manoeuvre) they tend to go for a compressor stall and to avoid this, right full rudder with stickforward or left rudder with stick backward is employed which will eventually take the plane into a barrel roll..
> 
> 2. Then you spoke about angle of attack.. angle of attack of tejas at 26 Degrees which is good, but even JF is inspired with Mig21 design with a low 60 Degree delta wing and it can also do slow speed turns at high altitudes without much Fuss.. So I think, just Angle of attack will not make tejas superior.. There are other aspects which makes tejas superior but it is not fit to be discussed here..
> 
> I have Just pointed out the contradictions dear.. No intentions to troll you.




Well the pure delta design has a High drag when compared to the conventional design with a tail plane. This is a known fact...here energy means 'speed'.

Due to the larger surface area of the delta wing the instantaneous turn rate is much higher comparatively but this creates a lot of drag.

The maneuver you are talking about is a barrel roll but the one I am talking about is the rolling scissors...where the lead aircraft has a tighter turn radius and the chase aircraft has a lesser one he climbs up and drops down on the lead aircraft giving him opportunity to lead the enemy with his fire and thus preserving energy(speed) in the dive.







What you talk about is the fight in the horizontal...but this is how they fight in the vertical. The Israelis have a similar maneuver called as the 'Let him pass' executed by the Mirage/Kfir against the MiG 21s in the Arab-Israeli war.

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## Allen Iverson

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well the pure delta design has a High drag when compared to the conventional design with a tail plane. This is a known fact...here energy means 'speed'.
> 
> Due to the larger surface area of the delta wing the instantaneous turn rate is much higher comparatively but this creates a lot of drag.
> 
> The maneuver you are talking about is a barrel roll but the one I am talking about is the rolling scissors...where the lead aircraft has a tighter turn radius and the chase aircraft has a lesser one he climbs up and drops down on the lead aircraft giving him opportunity to lead the enemy with his fire and thus preserving energy(speed) in the dive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you talk about is the fight in the horizontal...but this is how they fight in the vertical. The Israelis have a similar maneuver called as the 'Let him pass' executed by the Mirage/Kfir against the MiG 21s in the Arab-Israeli war.


Rudders are employed to minimise the Drag while employing the turn isn't it .. ? I fail to understand the requirement of discussing about manoeuvres here.. We are discussing about the specs of JF and Tejas, which by far is only in papers none of them had met an actual combat, nor any neutral Aviation experts are allowed to test fly these two.. So until that report comes out, we have to keep our fingers crossed.. As far as my experience in Aviation goes, what we see in papers is not even close to 40% of what we see in actual flight experience or combat sortie..The Barrel roll, The Pugachev Cobra, the scissor, etc were Maneuvres perfected for certain type of platforms against platforms that were put against it by their adversaries.. Comparing those on mere specs is idiotic.. Hence let us stick to things that we actually know till now, about these two platforms.. According to my sources Tejas has got many surprises which actually made the IAF finally go for it.. So let us all wait and hope for the best..



satishkumarcsc said:


> Well the pure delta design has a High drag when compared to the conventional design with a tail plane. This is a known fact...here energy means 'speed'.
> 
> Due to the larger surface area of the delta wing the instantaneous turn rate is much higher comparatively but this creates a lot of drag.
> 
> The maneuver you are talking about is a barrel roll but the one I am talking about is the rolling scissors...where the lead aircraft has a tighter turn radius and the chase aircraft has a lesser one he climbs up and drops down on the lead aircraft giving him opportunity to lead the enemy with his fire and thus preserving energy(speed) in the dive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you talk about is the fight in the horizontal...but this is how they fight in the vertical. The Israelis have a similar maneuver called as the 'Let him pass' executed by the Mirage/Kfir against the MiG 21s in the Arab-Israeli war.


By the way cool pics.. Where did you get the first one from?? Resembles my flight control studies manual from AFA..

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## satishkumarcsc

Allen Iverson said:


> Rudders are employed to minimise the Drag while employing the turn isn't it .. ? I fail to understand the requirement of discussing about manoeuvres here.. We are discussing about the specs of JF and Tejas, which by far is only in papers none of them had met an actual combat, nor any neutral Aviation experts are allowed to test fly these two.. So until that report comes out, we have to keep our fingers crossed.. As far as my experience in Aviation goes, what we see in papers is not even close to 40% of what we see in actual flight experience or combat sortie..The Barrel roll, The Pugachev Cobra, the scissor, etc were Maneuvres perfected for certain type of platforms against platforms that were put against it by their adversaries.. Comparing those on mere specs is idiotic.. Hence let us stick to things that we actually know till now, about these two platforms.. According to my sources Tejas has got many surprises which actually made the IAF finally go for it.. So let us all wait and hope for the best..
> 
> 
> By the way cool pics.. Where did you get the first one from?? Resembles my flight control studies manual from AFA..




Well the basics of maneuvers remains the same. and we are just discussing the specs of tejas here not the JF 17.


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## Allen Iverson

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well the basics of maneuvers remains the same. and we are just discussing the specs of tejas here not the JF 17.


By the way Sathish, your name, makes me think that, you are a Tamilian?? Are you one?? If so from Which District??


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## satishkumarcsc

Allen Iverson said:


> By the way Sathish, your name, makes me think that, you are a Tamilian?? Are you one?? If so from Which District??



Chennai!



Allen Iverson said:


> Rudders are employed to minimise the Drag while employing the turn isn't it .. ? I fail to understand the requirement of discussing about manoeuvres here.. We are discussing about the specs of JF and Tejas, which by far is only in papers none of them had met an actual combat, nor any neutral Aviation experts are allowed to test fly these two.. So until that report comes out, we have to keep our fingers crossed.. As far as my experience in Aviation goes, what we see in papers is not even close to 40% of what we see in actual flight experience or combat sortie..The Barrel roll, The Pugachev Cobra, the scissor, etc were Maneuvres perfected for certain type of platforms against platforms that were put against it by their adversaries.. Comparing those on mere specs is idiotic.. Hence let us stick to things that we actually know till now, about these two platforms.. According to my sources Tejas has got many surprises which actually made the IAF finally go for it.. So let us all wait and hope for the best..
> 
> 
> By the way cool pics.. Where did you get the first one from?? Resembles my flight control studies manual from AFA..



well I got it from the net..just needed to type that and I read about those in 'No guts No Glory' by Gen. Blesse


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## Allen Iverson

satishkumarcsc said:


> Chennai!


Alright.. I guessed it.. I'm from Coimbatore, now settled in Dallas,TX..

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## fsayed

http://idrw.org/in-flight-refuelling-probe-testing-to-begin-soon-on-lca-tejas/

In-flight refuelling probe testing to begin soon on LCA-Tejas
Published July 25, 2016
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK



Cobham supplied In-flight refuelling probe for LCA-Tejas MK-1

A nearly year ago UK based Company “Cobham” handed over in-flight refuelling probe for integration with LCA-Tejas MK-1 and now HAL is planning to start the first trial runs in next few weeks said informed sources close to idrw.org .

Limited Series Production-8 (LSP-8) stopped flying from January this year and has been already integrated with supplied in-flight refuelling probe and land-based trials have been carried out after structural modification were performed on LSP-8 for probe integration which also saw software upgrades to enable fuel sensors to detect mid-air fuel supply and to show correct fuel capacity to pilots.

LSP-8 will start flying again in next few weeks to conduct carriage trials before mockup dry trials will begin wherein the first phase IAF’s Ilyushin IL-78 air-to-air refuelling tanker aircraft and LSP-8 will carry out mockup mid-air refuelling where both aircraft will fly in close proximity to record and study behavior of the tanker’s fuel-transferring systems in the vicinity of the probe and the handling qualities of the aircraft.

The second phase will see actual contact with the fuel transferring systems of tanker with the in-flight refuelling probe of LCA-Tejas aircraft but no fuel transfer will actually take place , tests will be repeated till it achieves 2-5 minutes in contact with tanker which is actual fuel transfer time usually taken by tanker to pump fuel into a fighter jet. Wet runs trials will be followed after completion of Dry run trials where actual fuel transfer will take place which may happen only in next year .

Integration and demonstration of mid-air refuelling probe on LCA-Tejas are one of the key requirement to obtain Final Operational Clearance (FOC) . First, 20 IOC-II certified LCA-Tejas MK-1 will initially be produced and delivered without in-flight refuelling capacity but will be upgraded at a later stage since all aircraft will come with provision for pumps and fuel lines for IFR integration at a later stage.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA

From PIB
Ministry of Defence26-July, 2016 14:51 IST
Production of Tejas Aircraft 

HAL has an installed capacity to produce 8 Light Combat Aircraft – Tejas per annum. There is no fighter aircraft project which is pending for decades. 

Tejas aircraft will partially meet IAF’s requirement in Light Weight fighter category. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Harivansh in Rajya Sabha today. 

DM/NAMPI/RAJ 
(Release ID :147719)

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> *Tejas aircraft will partially meet IAF’s requirement in Light Weight fighter category. *



Important choice of words...

LM and Saab both would be very happy hearing this..

May be LSA...

Let me ask Vstol and comeback to you on this..

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## rockstarIN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Important choice of words...
> 
> LM and Saab both would be very happy hearing this..
> 
> May be LSA...
> 
> Let me ask Vstol and comeback to you on this..



The MK1A will meet full requirements then. SP series are IOC-II configuration.

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## Abingdonboy

An old testing pic down at INS Hansa:






Parked next to the IN's Sagar Pawan display team, wouldn't it quite the sight to see the team re-formed this time flying the N-LCA

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## BoQ77

How much is the HAL Tejas ? my friend
I think it's suitable to replace Vietnam obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22 fleets by this baby.


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## Han Patriot

BoQ77 said:


> How much is the HAL Tejas ? my friend
> I think it's suitable to replace Vietnam obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22 fleets by this baby.


LOL, my viet friend, I bet you haven't deal with an Indy before. You have no idea what you are gonna face, good luck!


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## BoQ77

Han Patriot said:


> LOL, my viet friend, I bet you haven't deal with an Indy before. You have no idea what you are gonna face, good luck!



What happen ?


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## SR-91

Han Patriot said:


> LOL, my viet friend, I bet you haven't deal with an Indy before. You have no idea what you are gonna face, good luck!




Don't worry my chin friend, in case u don't know, LCA has a perfect record and has never fallen out of sky unlike .................I don't need to remind u.

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

BoQ77 said:


> How much is the HAL Tejas ? my friend
> I think it's suitable to replace Vietnam obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22 fleets by this baby.


I think Vietnam should wait for made in India F-16, that will be little cheaper and battle proven. LCA is not a battle proven platform plus HAL is not producing it in large number at the moment. 

But LCAs could be the best replacements for Mig-21, they are small and maneuverable. Plus no conditions attached with it. And at last these babies could cost around million 35-40 $ per jet with 4.5 gen specification i.e. MK-1A.

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## AMCA

BoQ77 said:


> How much is the HAL Tejas ? my friend
> I think it's suitable to replace Vietnam obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22 fleets by this baby.



LCA costs around 24 million a piece. Vietnam should be interested in MK1-A which is more lethal and an apt replacement for your old machines.

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## Han Patriot

SR-91 said:


> Don't worry my chin friend, in case u don't know, LCA has a perfect record and has never fallen out of sky unlike .................I don't need to remind u.


Yes, my Indy fren, with only around a dozen produced after 40 years of development, I doubt there is any chance for it to crash compared to almost 400 J-10s.



Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> IAnd at last these babies could cost around million 35-40 $ per jet with 4.5 gen specification i.e. MK-1A.


See, another typical delusional indy, 4.5 gen? Why not you paint it black and then call it 5th gen.


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## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> Yes, my Indy fren, with only around a dozen produced after 40 years of development, I doubt there is any chance for it to crash compared to almost 400 J-10s.
> 
> 
> See, another typical delusional indy, 4.5 gen? Why not you paint it black and then call it 5th gen.


First u need to stop being a complete and utter Useless Troll!!!. If you wish to continue being a troll ! please do so with the right information! Its a 30 Year Program not 40 and abt 260+ aircrafts of j10s .... Happy Trolling!



nang2 said:


> It hasn't been much "in" sky, either.



Stop being the Troll brothers ... the tejas has flown over 3000+ hrs , can't post every pic or video for u!

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## Han Patriot

GuardianRED said:


> First u need to stop being a complete and utter Useless Troll!!!. If you wish to continue being a troll ! please do so with the right information! Its a 30 Year Program not 40 and abt 260+ aircrafts of j10s .... Happy Trolling!
> 
> Stop being the Troll brothers ... the tejas has flown over 3000+ hrs , can't post every pic or video for u!


I got it from the official Indian source, wikipedia, program started in 1984, isn't that 40 years +? And also wikipedia says 400 J-10s, the truth is nobody knows the exact figure but it could be more, who knows, definitely not in the dozen tho. LOL


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## AMCA

Han Patriot said:


> I got it from the official Indian source, wikipedia, program started in 1984, isn't that 40 years +? And also wikipedia says 400 J-10s, the truth is nobody knows the exact figure but it could be more, who knows, definitely not in the dozen tho. LOL



You despite being a Chinese have no clue on the official figures of J10's?? then how can you be so sure it failed or it flied? 

A govt thats masks public expenditures from public have no business to act righteous. May be you guys took a 50 years to come up with a J10 tripping over a lavi design as there is no official data.

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## Han Patriot

AMCA said:


> You despite being a Chinese have no clue on the official figures of J10's?? then how can you be so sure it failed or it flied?
> 
> A govt thats masks public expenditures from public have no business to act righteous. May be you guys took a 50 years to come up with a J10 tripping over a lavi design as there is no official data.


You have superb english saar, flied? LOL...

As I mentioned before, we don't have to spy on India. They will tell you exactly how many planes they have. LOL. Dont worry J10 is nothing...Jai Hind! Nothing to fear.


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## AMCA

Han Patriot said:


> You have superb english saar, flied? LOL...
> 
> As I mentioned before, we don't have to spy on India. They will tell you exactly how many planes they have. LOL. Dont worry J10 is nothing...Jai Hind! Nothing to fear.



You have a comprehension problem Mr.... Failed or flied in current context is obvious. Glad you dont have to spy on India and by your logic not on the US too.. While the general public is aware how much F22's are in service, China on the other hand is hiding an aircraft thats generations behind the former, from its public? while those who really are not supposed to know, know everything about China. Such a sorrry state of affairs.


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## Blue Marlin

@waz @Irfan Baloch can you delete these of topic/trolling posts ?
#1813
#1817
#1831
#1832
#1838
#1839
#1849
#1850
#1851
#1852
#1853
#1856
#1857
#1859
#1860
#1864
#1865

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## Irfan Baloch

Blue Marlin said:


> @waz @Irfan Baloch can you delete these of topic/trolling posts ?
> #1813
> #1817
> #1831
> #1832
> #1838
> #1839
> #1849
> #1850
> #1851
> #1852
> #1853
> #1856
> #1857
> #1859
> #1860
> #1864
> #1865


dealt with most of them and some others thanks

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## Blue Marlin

Irfan Baloch said:


> dealt with most of them and some others thanks


cheers

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## Abingdonboy



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## rockstarIN

BoQ77 said:


> How much is the HAL Tejas ? my friend
> I think it's suitable to replace Vietnam obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22 fleets by this baby.



I think you guys can get Mk1A version which will get AESA and modern BVR-WVR with helmet mounted sight combo.

It will blend quite well with Su-s with Li-Lo deadly combo!

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## Parul

Abingdonboy said:


>



Why India didn't go for French Or Russian Engines for LCA?


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## Wet Shirt Contest

Han Patriot said:


> I got it from the official Indian source, wikipedia, program started in 1984, isn't that 40 years +? And also wikipedia says 400 J-10s, the truth is nobody knows the exact figure but it could be more, who knows, definitely not in the dozen tho. LOL



We have come a long way since then, also not a single Tejas fighter jet has been lost to an accident during its extensive flight tests during 3,000+ hours of sorties.


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## BoQ77

Abingdonboy said:


>



Impressive.

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## zebra7

Parul said:


> Why India didn't go for French Or Russian Engines for LCA?



Because the First one was underpower, and the Second one we had it with Mig-29, which gave us too much trouble for being maintenance intensive.

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## BoQ77

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> I think Vietnam should wait for made in India F-16, that will be little cheaper and battle proven. LCA is not a battle proven platform plus HAL is not producing it in large number at the moment.
> 
> But LCAs could be the best replacements for Mig-21, they are* small and maneuverable*. *Plus no conditions attached with it.* And at last these babies could cost around million 35-40 $ per jet with 4.5 gen specification i.e. MK-1A.





rockstarIN said:


> I think you guys can get Mk1A version which will get *AESA and modern BVR-WVR with helmet mounted sight *combo.
> 
> *It will blend quite well with Su-s with Li-Lo deadly combo*!





AMCA said:


> LCA costs around 24 million a piece. Vietnam should be interested in MK1-A which is more lethal and an apt replacement for your old machines.



1. Vietnam tactic would be suddenly appear, hit and run. We don't give them heavy mission
2. Great support aftersale, and no condition attached is good, 
3. Used F-16 cost more than 30 million, and may with condition, so this could be the candidate.

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## Han Patriot

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> We have come a long way since then, also not a single Tejas fighter jet has been lost to an accident during its extensive flight tests during 3,000+ hours of sorties.


You know probability? It's math.


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## zebra7

Han Patriot said:


> You know probability? It's math.



How many J-10 have been inducted by PLAAF.



BoQ77 said:


> 1. Vietnam tactic would be suddenly appear, hit and run. We don't give them heavy mission
> 2. Great support aftersale, and no condition attached is good,
> 3. Used F-16 cost more than 30 million, and may with condition, so this could be the candidate.



*LCA would be one of the Choice of the Vietnaam Airforce. Few Reasons are :--*

1. Like IAF, they are also the user of MIG-21, armed with Russian Weaponary whose replacement IAF is doing with the LCA MK-1. And they are operating around 150 MIG-21, which they have to replace sooner or latter.

2. They too have the border with the China, and will face the Similar threat/Challenges, which IAF is facing.

3. They too operate the Heavier Flanker (Su-27) derivative aka Su-30 MKK, though inferior to Su-30 MKI.

4. They too would love the western elements in the plane (Chinese are also operative of Russian systems and have good insight of them), together with the Russian inventory of Weapons to lower down the procurement and commonality (R-77, R-73, Russian LGB, Air launch anti-ship, anti-runway, anti-radiation Cruise Missile).

5. Indian biggest Aviation Integrator HAL have been supplying spares for the MIG-21 to the vietnaam, and help in the upgrade of the MIG-21 of the VNAF. P.S the best MIG-21 variant Bison is also operated by IAF and whole plane including airframe, Radars and Engine are build in India from the Raw material.

6. LCA Tejas have trainer and Carrier version too, and work on them is on the advance stage.

7. Modern 4th Gen. fighter plane with AESA, IFR, FBW, FADEEC, swingrole Multirole fighter plane, with the Short take off capability, high load carrying capability, high ITR, and high availability and reliability.


*Now what are the advantages which Viet Airforce will have*

1. They could take the advantage of the Tactics developed by the IAF against the PLAAF using Hi-Lo combo Mix of Flankers and LMRCA aka LCA, with flanker illuminating the enemy target, and LCA sneaking and firing long range BVR shot on A2A clash.

2. The cost of acquisition would be lower than any other fighter plane, because IAF will demands the integration of the Russian weapon inventory which will include LGB, anti-ship, anti-radiation, anti-runway cruise missile. P.S LCA is using the Russian launcher on its Pylon.

3. LCA was always designed as the MIG-21 replacement, so the infrastructure of the MIG-21 could be used, thus lowering the total cost of ownership.

4. With the LCA, Vietnam will get the advantage of choosing the Best possible customization possible as per their need. E.G on Radar -- Choice of French, Israeli, Russian or Indian, Similarly on BVR Russian (R-77/R-73, Israeli (Derby, Python-5), French (MICA IR/RF), Indian (Astra-1/2). Similarly if the need arises Engine U.S - GE-404/414, Russian Rd-33MK, Eurojet EJ-200, Indian Kaveri K-10 (Although it is not ready, but GTRE is working).

5. Vietnam could have the Trainer, LIFT version of the LCA, which could be used for the CAS, and Carrier version, if in case Viet Navy think of the Smaller Carrier in future like Thailand.

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## RPK



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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @MilSpec @SpArK @Taygibay @zebra7 @all others

*SAAB Game over in Parliament -- Official Confirmation*

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## Ankit Kumar 002

No Gripen or anything else ! [ In the name of co developing Tejas ] 

Tejas Mark 1A 

The first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – Tejas squadron has been formed on 1st July, 2016 with two LCA Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) Series Production Aircraft. Further, 18 more aircraft in IOC standard are planned for induction by 2018-19. This would be followed by 20 more aircraft in Final Operation Configuration (FOC) standard, which are planned for induction from year 2019. 

There is no collaboration envisaged with any European Aircraft Manufacturer for development of Tejas Mark 1A. 

Tejas MK1A is a 4.5 generation aircraft. There is a separate programme between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) from Indian side and M/s Rosboronexport from the Russian side for Design and Development (D&D) of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Kirti Vardhan Singh in Lok Sabha today. 

****


NAMPI/RK
(Release ID :148815)

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
Also note its 20 IOC aircrafts + 20 FOC aircrafts , And then 80 MK1A Aircrafts.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 325234
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @MilSpec @SpArK @Taygibay @zebra7 @all others
> 
> *SAAB Game over in Parliament -- Official Confirmation*





Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> No Gripen or anything else ! [ In the name of co developing Tejas ]
> 
> Tejas Mark 1A
> 
> The first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – Tejas squadron has been formed on 1st July, 2016 with two LCA Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) Series Production Aircraft. Further, 18 more aircraft in IOC standard are planned for induction by 2018-19. This would be followed by 20 more aircraft in Final Operation Configuration (FOC) standard, which are planned for induction from year 2019.
> 
> There is no collaboration envisaged with any European Aircraft Manufacturer for development of Tejas Mark 1A.
> 
> Tejas MK1A is a 4.5 generation aircraft. There is a separate programme between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) from Indian side and M/s Rosboronexport from the Russian side for Design and Development (D&D) of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Kirti Vardhan Singh in Lok Sabha today.
> 
> ****
> 
> 
> NAMPI/RK
> (Release ID :148815)
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> Also note its 20 IOC aircrafts + 20 FOC aircrafts , And then 80 MK1A Aircrafts.



Oh look, more propoganda from foreign arms manufactuerers fundamentally refuted- is anyone surprised at this point at how little credibility there are to those reports?

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh look, more propoganda from foreign arms manufactuerers fundamentally refuted- is anyone surprised at this poipro at how little credibility there are to those reports?


Just wait a little more , the 2nd single engine contender which is creating so much pomp and show will again soon be proven wrong. 

No single engines are gonna be procured, but Super Hornet or a Russian option , IF THEY ARE SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER THAN RAFALE TO BE BUILT IN INDIA WITH INDUSTRIAL/TECHNOLOGICAL BENEFITS , may get a chance.

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## [Bregs]

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Just wait a little more , the 2nd single engine contender which is creating so much pomp and show will again soon be proven wrong.
> 
> No single engines are gonna be procured, but Super Hornet or a Russian option , IF THEY ARE SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER THAN RAFALE TO BE BUILT IN INDIA WITH INDUSTRIAL/TECHNOLOGICAL BENEFITS , may get a chance.



True is single engine fighter like f 16 or gripen is procured then you are killing Tejas which looks highly doubtful

so Rafale under MII in longer term, and super hornets or Russian one will be selected

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Just wait a little more , the 2nd single engine contender which is creating so much pomp and show will again soon be proven wrong.
> 
> No single engines are gonna be procured, but Super Hornet or a Russian option , IF THEY ARE SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER THAN RAFALE TO BE BUILT IN INDIA WITH INDUSTRIAL/TECHNOLOGICAL BENEFITS , may get a chance.





[Bregs] said:


> True is single engine fighter like f 16 or gripen is procured then you are killing Tejas which looks highly doubtful
> 
> so Rafale under MII in longer term, and super hornets or Russian one will be selected



At this point it is clear the most logical and simple solution is emerging as the most viable/likely outcome- no 2nd single engine fighter (for god's sake why would one be required now the LCA is in service?) and the Rafale MII.

Notice how none of the propoganda centres on a the twin-engined MII requirement as Dassualt have all but tied that up. Where is the news of the Super Hornet production line shifting to India? Is the dearth of such coverge because Dassualt are the only OEM (despite what SAB or OEM may claim) to have been allowed to progress a MII offer by the MoD?

For some reason SAAB and LM think they can arm-twist this GoI into killing off India's homegrown single engine fighter project all through the ruse of promoting "Make in India"- how ironic!


+ @Ankit Kumar 002 no new Russian jet deal is on the horizon with India beyond the FGFA. The MKI is already being produced in India in massive numbers (that will be increased yet further in the coming years) but India is more than aware of the hazards associated with dealing with the Russians and how deceptive the "cost" of their products can be.

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> At this point it is clear the most logical and simple solution is emerging as the most viable/likely outcome- no 2nd single engine fighter *(for god's sake why would one be required now the LCA is in service?) *and the Rafale MII.
> 
> *Notice how none of the propoganda centres on a the twin-engined MII requirement as Dassualt have all but tied that up. Where is the news of the Super Hornet production line shifting to India? Is the dearth of such coverge because Dassualt are the only OEM (despite what SAB or OEM may claim) to have been allowed to progress a MII offer by the MoD?*
> 
> For some reason SAAB and LM think they can arm-twist this GoI into killing off India's homegrown single engine fighter project all through the ruse of promoting "Make in India"- how ironic!
> 
> 
> + @Ankit Kumar 002 no new Russian jet deal is on the horizon with India beyond the FGFA. The MKI is already being produced in India in massive numbers (that will be increased yet further in the coming years) but India is more than aware of the hazards associated with dealing with the Russians and how deceptive the "cost" of their products can be.



No doubt the Tejas is going to stay and is going to see many transformation in its avionics and engine in next few yrs

Rafale under MII is only justifiable and possible route as of now and this going to stay this way till final deal is signed

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> At this point it is clear the most logical and simple solution is emerging as the most viable/likely outcome- no 2nd single engine fighter (for god's sake why would one be required now the LCA is in servFurthermnd the Rafale MII.
> 
> Notice how none of the propoganda centres on a the twin-engined MII requirement as Dassualt have all but tied that up. Where is the news of the Super Hornet production line shifting to India? Is the dearth of such coverge because Dassualt are the only OEM (despite what SAB or OEM may claim) to have been allowed to progress a MII offer by the MoD?
> 
> For some reason SAAB and LM think they can arm-twist this GoI into killing off India's homegrown single engine fighter project all through the ruse of promoting "Make in India"- how ironic!
> 
> 
> + @Ankit Kumar 002 no new Russian jet deal is on the horizon with India beyond the FGFA. The MKI is already being produced in India in massive numbers (that will be increased yet further in the coming years) but India is more than aware of the hazards associated with dealing with the Russians and how deceptive the "cost" of their products can be.



I mentioned Super Hornet because the first time this years LM started making noises about F16, just a couple of days ago Boeing had actually met with a Indian representation comprising of MoD officials . Something which I think LM hasn't done till now.Further a month ago , a Hindustan Times article did quoted Parikkar saying " We are reviewing the needs of IAF and if needed for IAF and India's domestic Aero space industry , we will not shy from tieing up with a willing foreign supplier " , and all LM and SAAB started making noises over it , ignoring the next line which he said the same time " To tie up with a foreign supplier for Medium weight " TWIN" Engine Aircraft ". 

Mentioned the Russians as many have hinted that follow on of Su30MKI may sometime down the line lead to Su35 to. 

All I will say is I will be quite happy till it is 
1. Upgraded Su30MKI 
2. Rafales
3. Tejas 
4. FGFA/PMF 

5Th option if the above are not available to satisfy the need to replace near 250 Mig21/27 over next 5 years.

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## jha

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 325234
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @MilSpec @SpArK @Taygibay @zebra7 @all others
> 
> *SAAB Game over in Parliament -- Official Confirmation*



Well. This clears lot of confusion about SAAB being roped in for consultation. Dont think there is much substance in another Single engine fighter.

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## Ind4Ever

Han Patriot said:


> LOL, my viet friend, I bet you haven't deal with an Indy before. You have no idea what you are gonna face, good luck!


Lol don't worry already there are more than enough dealings between India and Vietnam to make Chinese nervous. From training logistics supports to weapon exports in the near future. Think about a day when when Vietnam armed it's sukois, submarines and surface vessels with bramose? . Tejas, Howitzers, rocket launchers,bombs are on the wish list. Lol Happy Diwali


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## Han Patriot

Ind4Ever said:


> Lol don't worry already there are more than enough dealings between India and Vietnam to make Chinese nervous. From training logistics supports to weapon exports in the near future. Think about a day when when Vietnam armed it's sukois, submarines and surface vessels with bramose? . Tejas, Howitzers, rocket launchers,bombs are on the wish list. Lol Happy Diwali


Well there are already getting those from Russia. It's not like India manufactures anything really indigenous anyway. Brahmos? Ever wonder why it cant go more than 300km? Lol


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## GuardianRED

Ind4Ever said:


> Lol don't worry already there are more than enough dealings between India and Vietnam to make Chinese nervous. From training logistics supports to weapon exports in the near future. Think about a day when when Vietnam armed it's sukois, submarines and surface vessels with bramose? . Tejas, Howitzers, rocket launchers,bombs are on the wish list. Lol Happy Diwali


Pal !... Dont engage the Troll that is Han. He is just waiting for a chance



Han Patriot said:


> Well there are already getting those from Russia. It's not like India manufactures anything really indigenous anyway. Brahmos? Ever wonder why it cant go more than 300km? Lol



Stop being A JOKE! and Start contributing to the society!

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## Ind4Ever

Han Patriot said:


> Well there are already getting those from Russia. It's not like India manufactures anything really indigenous anyway. Brahmos? Ever wonder why it cant go more than 300km? Lol


Lol OK... What ever makes you happy. Troll somewhere not here. It's for Tejas enthusiasts. Or aircraft enthusiasts. Not for u


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## PARIKRAMA

From Tejas -LCA FB Page :https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/

Some quotes






Well Integration is a key term here and no doubt MIC will benefit a lot ...









Now thats some good quotes


SP3 maiden flight in 3rd week august so next week is the due date...
Quartz radome testing is going on
Derby full range with proper mid course guidance is needed to be tested.
Gun trials by September
I guess if all is well we might sneak in FOC by December 2016 instead of Mar2017






Very good and rationale words.. The point to note is the need of production facility for such a aircraft standard and the concurrent technologies is posing a challenge in front of Tejas.

What it also hints is our MIC and Aerospace industry is still not fully capable to fully rise upto the role and levels of Tejas LCA production. So it would be a herculean challenge for its future iterations as well as other homegrown projects inclusive of AMCA and a later stage FGFA apart from Super Upgrade program (in terms of localisation parts production and integration). 

I hope Make In India and Skill India succeeds..

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @others

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> From Tejas -LCA FB Page :https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/
> 
> Some quotes
> 
> View attachment 325794
> 
> Well Integration is a key term here and no doubt MIC will benefit a lot ...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 325792
> 
> 
> 
> Now thats some good quotes
> 
> 
> SP3 maiden flight in 3rd week august so next week is the due date...
> Quartz radome testing is going on
> Derby full range with proper mid course guidance is needed to be tested.
> Gun trials by September
> I guess if all is well we might sneak in FOC by December 2016 instead of Mar2017
> 
> View attachment 325793
> 
> 
> Very good and rationale words.. The point to note is the need of production facility for such a aircraft standard and the concurrent technologies is posing a challenge in front of Tejas.
> 
> What it also hints is our MIC and Aerospace industry is still not fully capable to fully rise upto the role and levels of Tejas LCA production. So it would be a herculean challenge for its future iterations as well as other homegrown projects inclusive of AMCA and a later stage FGFA apart from Super Upgrade program (in terms of localisation parts production and integration).
> 
> I hope Make In India and Skill India succeeds..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @others


Were they able to sort out the vibration issues with the Gun when they did ground trials? and the trials in September is air? ( Truly hope so its air )

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Were they able to sort out the vibration issues with the Gun when they did ground trials? and the trials in September is air? ( Truly hope so its air )


The ground integration checks called butt firing tests have been done. The required structural modification for handling vibrations also have been done.

It was revealed in January by same Tejas FB team. Here its covered -
https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-82#post-8086147

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> The ground integration checks called butt firing tests have been done. The required structural modification for handling vibrations also have been done.
> 
> It was revealed in January by same Tejas FB team. Here its covered -
> https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-82#post-8086147


Oops...Lol Only joined in June. Should have read the thread from the beginning!

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA bro, the LCA fb page is doing a GREAT job of explaining the enormity of the challenge faced by the design and test team which goes a long way to address those ignorant fools endlessly demeaning the fighter/project. They also more than make the case for rejecting any other single engined fighter that would not add 1/100th of the capacity the LCA project will eventually add to India's MIC and would undo all of this valuble work being undertaken by the LCA team.













_
If one looks at the naval aviation pioneers like USA and other countries, the experience and knowledge acquired by these countries are over decades probably closer to a century of naval flight testing have been achieved with numerous aircrafts. Whereas, a nation like us are trying to stand with similar achievement with ONE prototype and not even one tenth of time frame. Thereby, the technology and understanding of the most complex fighter flying tasks and execution of the task will see some phenomenal achievements in the days to come with limited experience.

Jai Hind..

https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/...329156428208/1108388302588950/?type=3&theater_






























-----------------------------
-----------------------------




_

Tejas journey has often seen lots of technicians, engineers, scientists, academicians, managers, directors and private participants. Apart from the above people, there are couple more who hardly get noticed. 

Here, we bring two such gentlemen of the program. 

MUNIRAJU(facing the camera) and UMESH NAIK (extreme right) : two wonderful persons in the team as far as our day to day work goes on a detachment. 

It is nothing technical about their work, yet more than they mean. 
Starting from pulling the GPUs, cooling trolleys to the desired location, polishing/cleaning the aircraft, doing all odd jobs around aircraft.... they are all countless. 

To describe Umesh, one has to find an utility vehicle which he can not operate. There is hardly any vehicle in any of the airforce station he can not drive or operate, be it a fuel bowser or a tractor or a fork lift or a armory vehicle or a truck or a long flat bed trailer or the one seen it here(he is on the wheels), the list is never ending. 
To top of it, he is a humble guy. Always smiling....

They are, in a true sense, the squirrel who participated in building the Ram Setu. 

They are hardly seen complaining, cribbing or finding excuses for not doing the work. 
To top of all these, what salary they earn .. meager. 
Their dedication, which they hardly know, are exemplary. 
The smiles in their faces, is another way of expressing selfless dedication towards work. 
There are whole lot of people like Muni and Umesh in our set up. 
Another reason to smile and get motivated.

Jai Hind..
https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/...329156428208/1099333443494436/?type=3&theater
_

@Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Taygibay @Skull and Bones @Omega007 @acetophenol @Stephen Cohen @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @SpArK @dadeechi @Parul @Star Wars @noksss @Sky lord @GuardianRED @Local_Legend @bloo @arp2041 @SR-91 @danish_vij @Nilgiri

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy

10/8/2016, Raja Bhoj Airport,Bhopal en route Leh:

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## Taygibay

That FB page is quite dithyrambic to my known liking
and that amount of pics is close to spamming but . . .
the basic idea is right.

Even if it failed, Tejas is the appropriate step for India
considering its objectives in the domain and at large so
that it just can't be spared.

Very nice, matey, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> That FB page is quite dithyrambic to my known liking
> and that amount of pics is close to spamming but . . .
> the basic idea is right


Perhaps it's tone is just what is needed to break through to the hard headed critics who are busy comparing the LCA to the Gripen NG/Rafale/F-22/Starship Enterprise and then berating the ADA/MoD for continuing with the effort when it comes up short!

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 325234
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @MilSpec @SpArK @Taygibay @zebra7 @all others
> 
> *SAAB Game over in Parliament -- Official Confirmation*



I don't know how many people have read the fine print here. They plan to induct 8 LCAs a year only. That's disappointing. So we will have two squadrons over the next 5 years.

Where are the people who were talking about a second LCA line?



jha said:


> Dont think there is much substance in another Single engine fighter.



That's something else and this is something else. Saab is still in the race for the single engine competition. Along with the F-16 and LSA.



Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps it's tone is just what is needed to break through to the hard headed critics who are busy comparing the LCA to the Gripen NG/Rafale/F-22/Starship Enterprise and then berating the ADA/MoD for continuing with the effort when it comes up short!



Such people don't even deserve a reply.

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## RPK

randomradio said:


> I don't know how many people have read the fine print here. They plan to induct 8 LCAs a year only. That's disappointing. So we will have two squadrons over the next 5 years.
> 
> Where are the people who were talking about a second LCA line?










Official Production & Induction Plan

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## randomradio

RPK said:


> Official Production & Induction Plan



That's with 16/year from 2017 onwards. Parrikar said they will get 20 jets only by 2018 end. And 20 more jets from 2019 onwards. So in the 2019-20 period, we will only have about 30 jets, not 50+.

Go by what Parrikar said, not what the graph says.

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## R!CK

RPK said:


> Official Production & Induction Plan




Truth be told, the current production plan is really tragic. Alot of resources needs to be mobilized for this production plan to actually work out. Just to point out a variation from the picture, the 20th aircraft is now set to join in 2019 and not 2018 as previously planned. And Mk-1A is planned for 2020, but highly unlikely. Maybe we really need foreign help in production line streamlining, from the pics I have seen of the current production line, it is unlikely to churn out 16 jets a year even with expanded infrastructure. I urge everyone to research a bit on advanced production line and compare it with what HAL is trying to work out. It is really not designed for fast production.







P.S: I am not blaming HAL, I am just saying we need to get our basics right and adopt international production standards. If the production line is streamlined, do we really need another foreign single engine fighter? Yes, there may be better light aircraft in market, but why do u need a highly advanced light fighter in urgency? We call it light because we don't need them on the front-line yes? They are going to be the workhorses during peace time operations which is honestly pretty much the future. Smaller countries with a tight economy needs such advanced light aircraft to serve as their front-line jets while keeping costs down, but is it same for India with an envisioned fleet of over 300 heavy aircraft? If assembling foreign jets was the way to go, maybe our decision to producing Migs instead of Indigenous would have made us an aviation hub. But did it? I'm personally against any other single jet entering the Indian market, even if we end up with 2 types of twin-jets. Nd not because of cutting costs, but it is high-time we really stopped this short visioned initiatives and really had a vision for the long term future.


















Good day to all!

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## RPK

R!CK said:


> This is not from an official source brother.



It is official

https://www.facebook.com/parrikar.m...013087441650/1113111028731847/?type=3&theater

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## R!CK

RPK said:


> It is official
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/parrikar.m...013087441650/1113111028731847/?type=3&theater



I stand corrected. Edited the original. Apologies.

Good Day to you!

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## halupridol

guys,,,can anyone confirm,,,,according to my source:
-tejas might not achieve foc even in march'17
-no real work done on mk1a as of yet,,,realistic dates arnd 2025 n beyond
-mk2 already rejected
-LSA is a forum fantasy

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## R!CK

halupridol said:


> guys,,,can anyone confirm,,,,according to my source:
> -tejas might not achieve foc even in march'17
> -no real work done on mk1a as of yet,,,realistic dates arnd 2025 n beyond
> -mk2 already rejected
> -LSA is a forum fantasy



Answer from my knowledge:

- march'17 is doubtful, but 2017 calendar year is achievable.
- Mk1A is being designed, however promised first flight on 2018 and delivery by 2020 seems to be a bit tight.
- Mk2 will fly as a naval variant first and if no foreign light fighter is chosen, IAF will place orders accordingly.
- LSA - Don't wish to comment on it unless it becomes official.

Good Day!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

halupridol said:


> guys,,,can anyone confirm,,,,according to my source:
> -tejas might not achieve foc even in march'17
> -no real work done on mk1a as of yet,,,realistic dates arnd 2025 n beyond
> -mk2 already rejected
> -LSA is a forum fantasy


IFR and Canon integration will be done before that. Anything else left in FOC ? If not then FOC will be done by the first quarter. 

The only work on MK1A done as of now is that if it happens , it will be known as MK1A. There are a few airframe refinements coming to slightly get it better at low levels... and they say by the end of this fiscal that should be finalised. 

Mk2, see if we see a GE414 deal before this December , MK2 for Navy sure and at a later stage for IAF. 

LSA ? 

Well I don't really know what to say , the closest thing I ever heard was a private sector entity going to the MoD with an offer to build a Light Next Generation Aircraft by 2019 in India , of course with collaboration with a foreign company... ( you can pretty much guess it here ) , but its not there as of now.

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## Abingdonboy

halupridol said:


> -tejas might not achieve foc even in march'17


FOC trails have been underway for months now, March 2017 but can be disrupted if unforseen technical issues arise. All we can do is wait and see.



halupridol said:


> -no real work done on mk1a as of yet,,,realistic dates arnd 2025 n beyond


MK.1A has been worked on quite heavily in the past 18 months, 2019 is a more realistic date for first flight with it entering service in 2021.



halupridol said:


> -mk2 already rejected


Not exactly, the IN are 100% commited to the Mk.2, the IAF haven't made up their mind either way, they want to see the MK.1/A's performance before making the call.

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## mkb95

Tejas trainer getting ready to undergo the high altitude and hot weather trials. 




source-https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/photos/a.561204013974051.1073741827.103329156428208/1124614230966357/?type=3&theater

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## GuardianRED

mkb95 said:


> Tejas trainer getting ready to undergo the high altitude and hot weather trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source-https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/photos/a.561204013974051.1073741827.103329156428208/1124614230966357/?type=3&theater


Didn't know this is a second trainer ! Cool!

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## kaykay

mkb95 said:


> Tejas trainer getting ready to undergo the high altitude and hot weather trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source-https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/photos/a.561204013974051.1073741827.103329156428208/1124614230966357/?type=3&theater


So this is part of FOC and Work on Tejas mk2 is already going on according to official Tejas page. Good good.

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## halupridol

kaykay said:


> So this is part of FOC and Work on Tejas mk2 is already going on according to official Tejas page. Good good.


can u post the link


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## kaykay

halupridol said:


> can u post the link


Heard the R&D of Tejas II has already begun, true ?
Like · 1 · Reply · Report · 56 minutes ago

Tejas - LCA
A dedicated team is already in place for the task.

https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...tifier=1124614230966357&gfid=AQCnEzwaZ8zJPwR-

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

kaykay said:


> Heard the R&D of Tejas II has already begun, true ?
> Like · 1 · Reply · Report · 56 minutes ago
> 
> Tejas - LCA
> A dedicated team is already in place for the task.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...tifier=1124614230966357&gfid=AQCnEzwaZ8zJPwR-


So the work is going on and there isn't any official timeline given ?


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> So the work is going on and there isn't any official timeline gimplemented



One thing I am sure of is there are a good number of very minor improvements for the fuselage , cockpit , etc which if implemented,would increase the overall performance of aircraft at lower altitudes by 3-7% per cent. And these along with other upgrades would be frozen by the last quarter of this FY. 

If you want to term the planning and road mapping for the way ahead as work , its well and good ,otherwise too its well and good. 

It's expected that real work will only start after the major promises on MK1 FOC are met.

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## rockstarIN

kaykay said:


> So this is part of FOC and Work on Tejas mk2 is already going on according to official Tejas page. Good good.


Yes it is!!


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## zebra7

kaykay said:


> So this is part of FOC and Work on Tejas mk2 is already going on according to official Tejas page. Good good.



I think, there are two teams one on the IAF LCA and another team with the IN for MK-2. As far as I understand MK-2 is originally the Indian Navy Carrier based fighter plane.

LCA trainer should be focused now, because it is clear that Rafale, will take time, and India needs to replace lot of fighter planes, and LCA trainer as a Superlative LIFT cum CAS platform, could give IAF some sort of relief, while replacing MIg-21 and MIG-27.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

zebra7 said:


> I think, there are two teams one on the IAF LCA and another team with the IN for MK-2. As far as I understand MK-2 is originally the Indian Navy Carrier based fighter plane.
> 
> LCA trainer should be focused now, because it is clear that Rafale, will take time, and India needs to replace lot of fighter planes, and LCA trainer as a Superlative LIFT cum CAS platform, could give IAF some sort of relief, while replacing MIg-21 and MIG-27.



LCA trainer will do what its named. Advanced Training. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are 18-24 Air frames planned in next 5 years. [Over planned MK1, MK1A procurement ].


As for work on MK1A, there are right now
1. Planning and 2. Testing / checking [Computer and Lab work comes here ]over numerous small improvements in its airframe of which a final report is to be submitted by the FY end and then get frozen before progressing.

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## zebra7

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> LCA trainer will do what its named. Advanced Training. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> There are 18-24 Air frames planned in next 5 years. [Over planned MK1, MK1A procurement ].
> 
> 
> As for work on MK1A, there are right now
> 1. Planning and 2. Testing / checking [Computer and Lab work comes here ]over numerous small improvements in its airframe of which a final report is to be submitted by the FY end and then get frozen before progressing.



Yes, but the LCA Trainer is Superlative LIFT, since its nose have enough room to carry a decent MMR Radar or IRST sensor, and could carry wide range of armament on its pylons to carry Spice-250 LGB, Dump bombs and Rocket Pods.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

zebra7 said:


> Yes, but the LCA Trainer is Superlative LIFT, since its nose have enough room to carry a decent MMR Radar flight T sensor, and could carry wide range of armament on its pylons to carry Spice-250 LGB, Dump bombs and Rocket Pods.



Yes of course , but what little info I was conveyed says that letting a limited number of Air frames do more than training , it will take a toll on its flighthours, 2 seater LCA will be used not only for training of LCA pilots , but also for remaining Migs , Mirages too. 

The person did hint that over next 5 years , even if he is highly optimistic we will have little over 2 dozen 2 seater trainer to take care of the humongous needs. 

Of course we need to wait for the next Fiscal to know the exact production estimates of 2 seater.


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## Perpendicular

*Wem Technologies ties up with Lockheed Martin for Light Combat Aircraft manufacturing facility in Andhra Pradesh*
*http://defenceaviationpost.com/wem-...aft-manufacturing-facility-in-andhra-pradesh/*


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## Zarvan

Tejas Grounded In Bhopal. Photo Credit: Hindustan Times
Hindustan Times.


Indian Bhoj airport’s ground staff in Bhopal rushed to cover the cockpit of a Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) on Tuesday to prevent water leakage into the plane.

The fighter jet was one of the first two Tejas aircraft that were handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) for formation of the new ‘Flying Daggers 45’ squadron. The jet was on its way from Pathankot to Bangalore, and landed at the Bhopal airport in the morning for re-fuelling.

After refueling, it did not take off as it began to rain. Further it was pulled to the hanger at 4.21 pm. The light combat aircraft was grounded because of bad weather, an airforce official was quoted as saying by Hindustan Times


Rain started minutes after the aircraft’s landing in Bhopal. The airport ground staff and some IAF staff rushed to the aircraft immediately and tried covering the cockpit with a yellow tarpaulin.

When the rain stopped, the two pilots of the LCA stood near the aircraft and ensured that the cockpit canopy was dried properly. However, they appeared nervous as it suddenly started raining heavily.

The two pilots insisted on another layer of tarpaulin to cover the cockpit. Later, another dark green tarpaulin was placed over it, as everyone had to ensure proper safety of the cockpit.

Airports Authority of India (AAI) officials refused to comment on the grounding of the LCA. “We don’t know. Only the IAF officials can reply to your questions,” an AAI official said.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...jas_Fighter_Grounded_Due_To_Rain#.V72ywyNRXqA

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## PARIKRAMA

Zarvan said:


> After refueling, it did not take off as it began to rain. Further it was pulled to the hanger at 4.21 pm. The light combat aircraft was grounded because of bad weather, an airforce official was quoted as saying by Hindustan Times



and this event became a headline..
media reports what only God knows really..

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## ashok321

http://www.hindustantimes.com/bhopa...-remain-mum/story-84w7oBtCE3XJxPceoXRlrO.html









It was an unusual sight at Raja Bhoj airport in Bhopal on Tuesday afternoon, when the ground staff rushed in panic to cover the cockpit of a Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) apparently to prevent water leakage into the plane.

The fighter jet – one of the first two Tejas aircraft that were handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) for formation of the new ‘Flying Daggers 45’ squadron – was on its way from Pathankot to Bangalore, and landed at the Bhopal airport at 11:30 am for re-fuelling.

However, it did not take off as it started raining, and was towed to the state hanger at 4.21 pm. An airforce official told HT that the light combat aircraft was grounded because of bad weather.

Rain started minutes after the aircraft’s landing in Bhopal. The airport ground staff and some IAF men immediately rushed to the aircraft and tried to cover the cockpit with a yellow tarpaulin.


When the rain stopped, the two pilots of the high-profile LCA stood near the aircraft and ensured that the cockpit canopy was dried properly. But they looked nervous as it suddenly started raining heavily.

The two pilots insisted on another layer of tarpaulin to cover the cockpit. Later, another dark green tarpaulin was placed over it, as everyone had to ensure proper safety of the cockpit.

Photographers were not allowed to enter the airport to click photos of the LCA, which was a matter of “unparalleled pride and happiness” for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s on the day of its induction.

Airports Authority of India (AAI) officials refused to comment on the grounding of the LCA. “We don’t know. Only the IAF officials can reply to your questions,” an AAI official said.


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## Manindra

Question asked in headline already answered in article then what is need of such lousy title?

What would be title when Tejas would go for schedule maintenance in hanger ?

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## shah1398

ashok321 said:


> It was an unusual sight at Raja Bhoj airport in Bhopal on Tuesday afternoon, when the ground staff rushed in panic to cover the cockpit of a Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) apparently to prevent water leakage into the plane.



The aircraft wasnt going for any war or urgent support mission so what if they havent flown in rainy conditions? All around the world its prefered to cover the canopy of aircraft in case of rain, hail, thunderstorm etc.What kind of reporters and so called leading newspapers U have in India who are creating unnecessary panic and suspicions for something who is looked at esteem at Home?

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## nair

Manindra said:


> What would be title when Tejas would go for schedule maintenance in hanger ?



Tejas Engine removed and officials remain mum????

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## shah1398

ashok321 said:


> But they looked nervous as it suddenly started raining heavily.



Seriously? So they are trying to imply that the lead fighter pilots were actually frightened to fly Tejas after rain or in rainy conditions? U really dont need anyone else to demoralize your Nation as U already have likes of these reporting doing the job amicably. Utterly BS reporting.

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## Irfan Baloch

nair said:


> Tejas Engine removed and officials remain mum????


much better than crashing due to malfunction in flight

good precaution even if it was a scheduled grounding

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## nair

Irfan Baloch said:


> much better than crashing due to malfunction in flight
> 
> good precaution even if it was a scheduled grounding



I agree , they have been extra cautious with LCA for obvious reasons......


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## salarsikander

B.S news. Its very typical standard operating procedure

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## ashok321

shah1398 said:


> The aircraft wasnt going for any war or urgent support mission so what if they havent flown in rainy conditions? All around the world its prefered to cover the canopy of aircraft in case of rain, hail, thunderstorm etc.What kind of reporters and so called leading newspapers U have in India who are creating unnecessary panic and suspicions for something who is looked at esteem at Home?



You see that the cockpit canopy is shut.
So why 2 layers of tarpaulin despite that?


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## Hellfire

nair said:


> Tejas Engine removed and officials remain mum????




Damn, I was just going offline and saw this gem









@shah1398

That is why I also laugh at our crap media!!!



ashok321 said:


> You see that the cockpit canopy is shut.
> So why 2 layers of tarpaulin despite that?



To ensure water proofing. Bhopal is NOT a military airfield

AVIONICS ARE EXPENSIVE

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## SpArK

ashok321 said:


> You see that the cockpit canopy is shut.
> So why 2 layers of tarpaulin despite that?



to prevent coconuts from falling on top.

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## Hellfire

SpArK said:


> to prevent coconuts from falling on top.



On a roll ....

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## shah1398

ashok321 said:


> You see that the cockpit canopy is shut.
> So why 2 layers of tarpaulin despite that?



Cockpit is sealed when canopy is down as normally the seal along the canopy inflates not to allow anything to enter or go outside. Canopy covers are used precautionary as who knows its starts to hail or gusty winds start who can damage the canopy or create scratch marks on it. There is nothing unusual what has been reported as something very critical.



hellfire said:


> That is why I also laugh at our crap media!!!



Media all over the world esp in our part of world is one and same. They are in pursuit of creating sensation of everything they see. Its all about ratings.

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## Irfan Baloch

SpArK said:


> to prevent coconuts from falling on top.


you nailed it bro

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## Robinhood Pandey

Indian media at its best 



hellfire said:


> Damn, I was just going offline and saw this gem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @shah1398
> 
> That is why I also laugh at our crap media!!!
> 
> 
> 
> TO WATER PROOF IT!!!!
> 
> AVIONICS ARE EXPENSIVE




Here are few more Gems for u 

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...ut-omg-with-those-muscles-who-will-marry-her/


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## PARIKRAMA

@waz @Irfan Baloch 
Can you please merge the threads by @Zarvan and @ashok321 about Tejas being grounded here

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> @waz @Irfan Baloch
> Can you please merge the threads by @Zarvan and @ashok321 about Tejas being grounded here


Lol... was about to post there!.... Think the aircraft is the Trainer NOT the 2 that is inducted!

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## ashok321

Then the following WTT successful test is a BS from ADA:


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## ashok321

https://defence.pk/threads/tejas-gr...ficials-remain-mum.445851/page-2#post-8609980


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## Ali Zadi

About the grounded LCA whatever it is water inside the cockpit is a very problematic. LCA has a manual mechanically operated canopy and lets faceit pilots are also humans if its not sealed properly water can seep in very easily specially in heavy rain.

On the networking system that I have worked on a specific humidity value is tolerated anything more and there are issues with write up/back of the streams or sync problem's. Its because of the sensitive nature of the broadcaster and receiver systems.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> @waz @Irfan Baloch
> Can you please merge the threads by @Zarvan and @ashok321 about Tejas being grounded here





GuardianRED said:


> Lol... was about to post there!.... Think the aircraft is the Trainer NOT the 2 that is inducted!


The inclusion of these two blatent LIES:

1) "Grounding" of LCA
2) This is the second fighter for the IAF's operational fighter SQN

Highlights simply how bought some sections of the Indian media are and/or how dismissive they are of India's own capabilities to this day.

I had to read about halfway down the page to learn that the "grounding" was actually simply an extended stay of an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft at a airbase/airport quite some distance from "home base" caused by unfavourable weather conditions.

I do hope that it is understood that any development program ANYWHERE in the world would have done the exact same thing. The a/c is NOT a production model but an experimental fighter (hence equipped with all kinds of gadgetry; sensors, on board computers, extra data links, that would never appear on operational a/c) and thus a one off that they cannot afford to take any risks with. Furthermore, the fact that the a/c was on a deployment/test AWAY from its homebase means the test team would be even less inclined to take any risks as there would not be support/spares readily available for the type.

The ADA/NFTC's zero-risk approach is why there has not been a single airframe loss to date and minimal flight safety incidents.

The fact that the Indian media even reported on this is utterly bizzare.

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## sathya

It's time we get some good info about tejas ...

Pretty bored now..

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Trichy



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## bloo



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## mkb95



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## PARIKRAMA

*Private sector must play a larger role in defence manufacturing: Hindustan Aeronautics’ T. Suvarna Raju*

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) handed over the first two indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas to the Indian Air Force in July.

With the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government allowing up to 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) in the defence sector—49% FDI participation under the automatic route and beyond 49% through government approval—HAL, a Bangalore-based aerospace and defence firm, is looking at more private sector participation to boost defence manufacturing in India. The NDA government has placed defence orders worthRs.2 trillion to encourage domestic manufacturing and foreign investments.

In an interview with _InfraCircle_, T. Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director of HAL, spoke about the opportunity for the Indian industry in defence production, role of the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative and its light utility helicopters becoming operational shortly. Edited excerpts.







http://www.vccircle.com/infracircle...cturing-hindustan-aeronautics-t-suvarna-raju/

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## 4GTejasBVR

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Private sector must play a larger role in defence manufacturing: Hindustan Aeronautics’ T. Suvarna Raju*
> 
> State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) handed over the first two indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas to the Indian Air Force in July.
> 
> With the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government allowing up to 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) in the defence sector—49% FDI participation under the automatic route and beyond 49% through government approval—HAL, a Bangalore-based aerospace and defence firm, is looking at more private sector participation to boost defence manufacturing in India. The NDA government has placed defence orders worthRs.2 trillion to encourage domestic manufacturing and foreign investments.
> 
> In an interview with _InfraCircle_, T. Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director of HAL, spoke about the opportunity for the Indian industry in defence production, role of the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative and its light utility helicopters becoming operational shortly. Edited excerpts.
> 
> 
> View attachment 330904
> 
> 
> http://www.vccircle.com/infracircle...cturing-hindustan-aeronautics-t-suvarna-raju/



When will this happen? When will private player will set up assembly line.. Any new regarding this... HAL for sure not interested in ramping up production more than 16 and that a bit worrying part I must say

For instance oder should be increased to 150+ so Tejas production takes phase for internal export needs with one more private production line

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## PARIKRAMA

4GTejasBVR said:


> When will this happen? When will private player will set up assembly line.. Any new regarding this... HAL for sure not interested in ramping up production more than 16 and that a bit worrying part I must say
> 
> For instance oder should be increased to 150+ so Tejas production takes phase for internal export needs with one more private production line


I have heard L&T wanting to set up the private sector line for LCA for almost last 2 years.. It has sent the proposal to DM MP, MOD. Its plan is 16 jets a year and it can expand it further. In short, if MOD approves we can have easily

Line - 32 Jets a year (16 HAL, 16 private sector)
Minimum production - 24 jets a year (assuming one 8 jet/year line not working and is used for testing and upgrades under HAL for bettering LCA)

Orders will eventually reach 300 over years.. The reason being any private sector investing will request minimum 10 years order so anyways 160 jets from private sector will come. Add HAL line as well you can easily reach 300 LCA different product versions over time

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## satishkumarcsc

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Private sector must play a larger role in defence manufacturing: Hindustan Aeronautics’ T. Suvarna Raju*
> 
> State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) handed over the first two indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas to the Indian Air Force in July.
> 
> With the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government allowing up to 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) in the defence sector—49% FDI participation under the automatic route and beyond 49% through government approval—HAL, a Bangalore-based aerospace and defence firm, is looking at more private sector participation to boost defence manufacturing in India. The NDA government has placed defence orders worthRs.2 trillion to encourage domestic manufacturing and foreign investments.
> 
> In an interview with _InfraCircle_, T. Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director of HAL, spoke about the opportunity for the Indian industry in defence production, role of the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative and its light utility helicopters becoming operational shortly. Edited excerpts.
> 
> 
> View attachment 330904
> 
> 
> http://www.vccircle.com/infracircle...cturing-hindustan-aeronautics-t-suvarna-raju/



That is pure lip service by the HAL chairman. None of the PSU would like to see a public sector company entering the manufacturing arena. They pretty well know that they cannot compete with the quality that these public sector units can offer. For example....the Vikas engine history before it was transferred to Godrej.

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## PARIKRAMA

satishkumarcsc said:


> That is pure lip service by the HAL chairman. None of the PSU would like to see a public sector company entering the manufacturing arena. They pretty well know that they cannot compete with the quality that these public sector units can offer. For example....the Vikas engine history before it was transferred to Godrej.


I can tell you honestly L&T has been pretty much irritated with the way their plan for line setup for LCA was resisted and is still being resisted by using some logic which will come out as a farce over time. I think they might give up soon on that plan and soon will be okie doing LRU work adn wing work instead of a full line bcz its a sheer time waste, resource waste and critically big stones being placed in order to protect HAL's own interest.

I would be oki with that if HAL can deliver what it wants to protect. But i doubt that really. I have more confidence of a pvt sector line delivering more than HAL line in a 24/year program. Anyways looks like we might see an extended 8-10 jets a year unless DM MP steps in and changes things..

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> I can tell you honestly L&T has been pretty much irritated with the way their plan for line setup for LCA was resisted and is still being resisted by using some logic which will come out as a farce over time. I think they might give up soon on that plan and soon will be okie doing LRU work adn wing work instead of a full line bcz its a sheer time waste, resource waste and critically big stones being placed in order to protect HAL's own interest.
> 
> I would be okie with that if HAL can deliver what it wants to protect. But i doubt that really. I have more confidence of a pvt sector line delivering more than HAL line in a 24/year program. Anyways looks like we might see an extended 8-10 jets a year unless DM MP steps in and changes things..



Its an excellent proposal. In reality, HAL might not really help the private line to be a big success. They will make sure the private line is dependent on HAL for every thing. This is where the DM can make a difference, If this is to work out, high level involvement is very important. And if it really takes off, you can witness high level war of words between HAL and the private line about how the other is not cooperating or upto the mark. Personally, I don't think HAL will do the necessary hand holding for a private line like a foreign partner would do. Its best to have HAL retain Tejas and private lines being used for foreign aircraft. 

P.S: In an ideal world, nothing better than having HAL and private line go hand in hand. In reality, highly doubt things working out due to the ever famous Indian ego. No-one helps their competition gain an edge over them.
Need an example? Keep an eye on Ka-226 project under HAL over time. One of the advantage of ordering Ka-226 along with HAL LUH was the timeline difference between having a proven product vs waiting for a product to prove itself. HAL will make sure that advantage is taken away from Kamov and you will see both platforms rolling out of assembly lines at similar timelines.

Good Day all!

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## PARIKRAMA

R!CK said:


> P.S: In an ideal world, nothing better than having HAL and private line go hand in hand. In reality, highly doubt things working out due to the ever famous Indian ego. *No-one helps their competition gain an edge over them.*
> *Need an example? Keep an eye on Ka-226 project under HAL over time.* *One of the advantage of ordering Ka-226 along with HAL LUH was the timeline difference between having a proven product vs waiting for a product to prove itself. HAL will make sure that advantage is taken away from Kamov and you will see both platforms rolling out of assembly lines at similar timelines.*
> 
> Good Day all!



yes Ka226 vs LUH dilemma by HAL was something pointed by @Abingdonboy , @anant_s , @Rajaraja Chola and i said back then also this.
















https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-india-challenge-for-kamov-helicopter.418451/#post-8092634

Basically dirty politics will be played to ensure HAL interests are nt harmed in any manner.. but doing so it will harm our country's national interest as all things will be delayed.

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> dirty politics will be played to ensure HAL interests are nt harmed in any manner..


Really Dirty.
By this time i'm sure defence PSUs would've realized that they would find it hot to keep up with pace of requirements of Indian Defence forces and hence it is better to concentrate on matured products they offer (or can offer) and let private players come into fray for technologies and products beyond capacity of d-PSUs.
if anybody's interest has to be protected, it should be of armed forces and not their suppliers.

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## Rajaraja Chola

PARIKRAMA said:


> yes Ka226 vs LUH dilemma by HAL was something pointed by @Abingdonboy , @anant_s , @Rajaraja Chola and i said back then also this.
> 
> View attachment 331013
> 
> 
> View attachment 331012
> 
> 
> View attachment 331014
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-india-challenge-for-kamov-helicopter.418451/#post-8092634
> 
> Basically dirty politics will be played to ensure HAL interests are nt harmed in any manner.. but doing so it will harm our country's national interest as all things will be delayed.



Does govt has any plans to make Ka226 through a private vendor?

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## PARIKRAMA

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Does govt has any plans to make Ka226 through a private vendor?


Not really.. it's HAL facility only..

From the same link from earlier post

_This IGA, unprecedentedly, mandates an Indo-Russian joint venture for building the helicopter, with a 50.5 per cent stake for HAL, and a 49.5 per cent stake for Russian Helicopters. HAL is permitted to co-opt an Indian vendor with part of its stake._

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-india-challenge-for-kamov-helicopter.418451/#ixzz4JDYjO6EZ

So far HAL has not opted for any Indian vendor nor shared any stake in the JV..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not really.. it's HAL facility only..



Hello Sir ji ; any update on F 16 proposal

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir ji ; any update on F 16 proposal


No change in position for F16. We still won't go for them ..unless they give us something new.. i am waiting for a meeting of DM MP soon with folks.. will come to know if Carter has indicated anything special. But as of now what I have heard, nothing has changed position stated earlier.

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## GuardianRED

The Naval prototype NP-1 taking off for a routine sortie with the LEVCONs being set up at a higher angle. At this set up, the LEVONCs supppose to aid in taking off from the ramp as well as help in coming down for an arrested landing..







https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

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## kaykay

GuardianRED said:


> The Naval prototype NP-1 taking off for a routine sortie with the LEVCONs being set up at a higher angle. At this set up, the LEVONCs supppose to aid in taking off from the ramp as well as help in coming down for an arrested landing..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf


I must say naval prototype is better looking than airforce ones.

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## GuardianRED

kaykay said:


> I must say naval prototype is better looking than airforce ones.


Total Agree! Read some where that the Mark 1A and even the Mark 2 will follow this design !

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## BON PLAN

GuardianRED said:


> Total Agree! Read some where that the Mark 1A and even the Mark 2 will follow this design !


Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know

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## rockstarIN

BON PLAN said:


> Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know



No..!! It is already confirmed..

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## GuardianRED

BON PLAN said:


> Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know


Possible , many reports and counter reports - Last i read was that the Mark1A is for the IAF as an interim solution to issues of the Mark 1 (post 20 Nos.) Till the Mark 2 is built

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## kaykay

BON PLAN said:


> Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know


Well Its rather mk2 on which things are not clear.....mk1A is already agreed upon and initial orders of 100 aircrafts of mk1A standard are committed.

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## R!CK

*It's 20 IOC + 20 FOC + 80 Mk1A

IOC - MMR (2015-2018)

FOC - MMR + IFR (2018-2020)

Mk1A - AESA + IFR + Inbuilt EW suite + Weight reduction + Maintenance refinements (2020-2021/2)*

Personally, we should have gone for an all 2 seater arrangement for 20 IOC + 20 FOC. This way these aircraft cold be used for future LIFT requirements once Mk1A begins to roll out steadily. Converting the IOC and FOC aircraft to Mk1A standard is again a time consuming and expensive affair which could be utilised for production of more Mk1A airframes.

_MMR - Multi Mode Radar ( Isreali EL/M-2032 ) It is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode planar array fire-control radar which has a maximum range of around 150 km. HAL has also integrated the Israeli Derby and Python air-to-air missiles, and a data link that digitally interconnects between all the hardware elements.

IFR - In-Flight Refuelling (Cobham)

AESA - Active Electronically Scanned Array radar( 
Isreali EL/M-2052 for initial batches) 
The EL/M-2052 is based on a fully solid-state active phased array technology which has a longer detection range, high mission reliability and a multi-target tracking capability of up to 64 targets. In Air-to-ground missions, the radar provides very high resolution mapping (SAR), surface moving target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging.

Weight reduction - HAL envisages the Mk 1A as being around 1,000 kg lighter than the Mk 1, which weighs 6,500 kg. It aims to achieve this weight loss by shedding 200-300 kg of ballast secured in the aircraft's nose to stabilise it and another 700-800 kg by reducing its heavy and 'over-engineered' landing gear. 

Maintenance refinements - Repositiong of several LRUs for easy maintenance access. Combining several small LRUs into single LRUs. Uniformity among panels to facilitate interchangeability.

Inbuilt EW suite - EW suite will be integrated to the airframe in contrast to previous version where an external pod will have to be carried._

Good Day all!

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## zebra7

BON PLAN said:


> Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know



There is no MK-1A, actually there is only one MK-1 and the so called MK-1A was mentioned by some reporter and everyone starts beating the bush.

MK-2 is for the Carrier operation, where you need hieghter thrust to take off from the ski jump, with usefull fuel and amunitions. There is no need for the MK-2 for the IAF.

Actually problem is that the LCA MK-1 was originally designed around the Kaveri Specs, with highter mass flow and lower pressure than the F-404 engine, that's why ADA latter on have to open few auxillary air ducts to lower down the airpressure, and increase the airflow, and this is what no technical reporters will mentioned flawed.

Any way, F-404 will now will be used for the time being, till Kaveri K-10 matures, probably in 2024, and everyone knows that the airframe needs 2.5 engine in its life time.



R!CK said:


> Personally, we should have gone for an all 2 seater arrangement for 20 IOC + 20 FOC. This way these aircraft cold be used for future LIFT requirements once Mk1A begins to roll out steadily. Converting the IOC and FOC aircraft to Mk1A standard is again a time consuming and expensive affair which could be utilised for production of more Mk1A airframes.



LOLz it is a standard procedure to upgrade slowly, and there is nothing called MK-1A rather SOP 2018 standard.

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## Grevion

R!CK said:


> *FOC - MMR + IFR (2018-2020)
> 
> Mk1A - AESA + IFR + Inbuilt EW suite + Weight reduction + Maintenance refinements (2020-2021/2)*


Are you sure about that?? Don't know if I missed any latest developments but the deadlines for the mk1a was 2018-2019.

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Some said that Mk1A will never exist. True? I don't know


The MK.IA (with AESA, IFR and integrated EW suite) has been cleared for 80 units to be delivered by 2025. It very much exists (the designation is all that is disputed).



GuardianRED said:


> Total Agree! Read some where that the Mark 1A and even the Mark 2 will follow this design !


The MK.2 is going to be based on the NLCA.

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## R!CK

zebra7 said:


> LOLz it is a standard procedure to upgrade slowly,



It is indeed standard procedure for any equipment to be upgraded gradually. All I did was suggest an alternate to the plan of producing 40 odd aircraft now with an intent to upgrade them before they are due for MLU. This is because standard IOC aircraft is very different from the SOP-18 standard configuration. Anyone with an aviation background can endorse that rearranging several LRUs, Combining mini modules to single LRUs and integration of IFR is not a short turn-around program. This becomes even more relevant when we are struggling with a slow rate of production? We were supposed to have 4 aircraft ready for induction in July and latest report this week is that SP3 will be ready only by mid-end of this month. Considering the LIFT option could have avoided this upgrade requirement as well as replacement of MMR with AESA. Again, just a personal thought. Our decision makers have made the wrong choices multiple times, so the argument of many that they know whats best is hardly convincing.



zebra7 said:


> There is no MK-1A, actually there is only one MK-1 and the so called MK-1A was mentioned by some reporter and everyone starts beating the bush.
> 
> 
> and there is nothing called MK-1A rather SOP 2018 standard.




Our DM disagrees with you, watch from *03.30* of the video.








litefire said:


> Are you sure about that?? Don't know if I missed any latest developments but the deadlines for the mk1a was 2018-2019.



Personally, I want to be wrong about it as much as everyone who supports Tejas. Multiple timelines have been missed out consistently and we can only hope it won't continue on. Just check the planned timelines of FOC, no.of airframes for squadron induction reduced from 4 to 2, delay in delivery of 3rd and 4th units, Cobham radome still being tested as of 22nd August and the list goes on. Everything has its own reasons, and we will have to be patient till the testing phase is over, there is no room for shortcuts. Safety is the most important factor. However once the testing phase is over, we must really push hard to have a very high rate of production. Lets wait and watch this space for more progress.

It has been confirmed that IOC delivery will be done only by 2018-2019. This makes it easier to assume the delivery schedule for FOC and Mk1A.






Tejas Elephant Walk





The Technology Demonstrator (TD-1 ), The Prototype Vehicle (PV-1 & PV-2) and the limited Series Produced Aircraft (LSP-1) all together in one frame indicating the transformation..
_Credits_: #Tejas_Official_Archive

Good Day!

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## zebra7

R!CK said:


> It is indeed standard procedure for any equipment to be upgraded gradually. All I did was suggest an alternate to the plan of producing 40 odd aircraft now with an intent to upgrade them before they are due for MLU. This is because standard IOC aircraft is very different from the SOP-18 standard configuration. Anyone with an aviation background can endorse that rearranging several LRUs, Combining mini modules to single LRUs and integration of IFR is not a short turn-around program. This becomes even more relevant when we are struggling with a slow rate of production? We were supposed to have 4 aircraft ready for induction in July and latest report this week is that SP3 will be ready only by mid-end of this month. Considering the LIFT option could have avoided this upgrade requirement as well as replacement of MMR with AESA. Again, just a personal thought. Our decision makers have made the wrong choices multiple times, so the argument of many that they know whats best is hardly convincing.



Actually I agree with you for the LCA trainer, and both IAF and IN could get around 80-90 twin seater trainer of LCA variant, but somehow the focus is on the LCA FOC and SOP-18 standard. The most prominent reason for the twin seater LCA as a lift is that the digital cockpit could mimic the MKI cockpit with little modification, and which would help in increasing the TSL of the MKI and reduction of the training cost. P.S the MKI being a twin seater is been used for the training purpose at the moment.



R!CK said:


> Our DM disagrees with you, watch from *03.30* of the video.



Now lets clear the facts -- Our DM is a political leader and our DM, but he is not responsible for the security of the country, its the Defence Secretariat who is responsible. Its the Air Chief Raha himself who clearify about the nomiclature and clearly suggest to leave the nomiclature to the Airforce, and treat LCA Tejas as LCA tejas and since its the first mark so its mark 1 of the LMCA Tejas, and we should even avoid calling LCA also rather Light Multi Role combat Aircraft Tejas.


Good Day

Zebra 7

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## sudhir007



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## mkb95



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## ni8mare



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## R!CK

Apologies if already posted.






_Source:_ #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN

Good Day!

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## Water Car Engineer



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## sathya

R!CK said:


> Apologies if already posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Source:_ #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
> 
> Good Day!



one tejas alone has dark nose cone, is it cobham ?

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## R!CK

Nope. Integration test is still going on for Cobham Radome.

Good Day!

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## first77

lca tejas flies at mach1

MiG-21 flies at mach2


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## aswin

will the weapon payload of rafale be integrated onto tejas ? eg mica and scalp

regards


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## Sri

aswin said:


> will the weapon payload of rafale be integrated onto tejas ? eg mica and scalp
> 
> regards


No It wont be, Since the Radar, HMDS etc are Israeli origin and would cost a fortune to integrate those. So Tejas will have only Indian and Israeli weapons ( to start with)

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## halupridol

@PARIKRAMA
latest frm my source indicates foc difficult even in march'17  n maybe postponed yet again 
Can u confirm,,seems unreal

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## RPK

The Engineers working hard and preparing the Light Combat Aircraft ready last night for the Trials in Jaisalmer.

#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC

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## GuardianRED

*Tejas SP-3 ready for maiden flight*

Bengaluru: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is warming up to conduct the first flight of the third series production variant (SP-3) of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, soon.

The EGR (engine ground run) has been completed and now the aircraft is being prepared for LSTT (low-speed taxi trials).

“Then the HSTT (high-speed taxi trials) leading to the first flight,” says an official. HAL hopes to conduct the SP-3 first flight within a week, subject to favourable weather conditions and zero snags. Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd) is set to fly SP-3.

However, the dream of Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha to have four Tejas’ flying over Hindon Air Force base, during Air Force Day (October 8), might not happen this year.

“Both SP-1 and SP-2 are sure to fly with one more from the flightline on the static display,” says an official. SP-3 is unlikely to make it to Hindon this time, though HAL officials are making efforts to position it on the static display arena.

The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.)

“In the next aircraft, around 100 panels and 700-plus pipelines will be in the ICY standards,” says an official.

HAL conducted the first flight of SP-1 on September 1, 2014 while the SP-2 had its maiden sorties on March 23, 2016.

On July 1, this year, the IAF formally inducted Tejas (No 45 Flying Daggers Sqn) with two aircraft and Group Captain Madhav Rangachari as its Commanding Officer.

“The IAF is happy with the performance of both the aircraft and we are delighted with the feedback we received recently from the Squadron,” says HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju. The inducted platforms have both completed around 30 flights as this report goes live.

As reported by _Mathrubhumi_ earlier, Raju has given a freehand to the young LCA Division to launch innovative ideas so that the IAF gets the remaining aircraft (18 numbers) as per the plan.

“The results are showing with our team now working on two shifts even on Sundays,” says an insider.

HAL hopes to take the Tejas deliver tally to six aircraft (SP-1 & SP-2 included) by end of March 2017. Components up to SP-9 are already in different stages of assembly, coupling and equipping on various jigs at the LCA Division.

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...ighttejas-hal-light-combat-aircraft-1.1373414

*Note: Total Six Frames in about 6 -7months? *

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## R!CK

GuardianRED said:


> HAL hopes to take the Tejas deliver tally to *six aircraft (SP-1 & SP-2 included) by end of March 2017*. Components up to SP-9 are already in different stages of assembly, coupling and equipping on various jigs at the LCA Division.
> 
> http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...ighttejas-hal-light-combat-aircraft-1.1373414
> 
> *Note: Total Six Frames in about 6 -7months? *



6 airframes including SP1 & SP2. Which means 4 more airframes in next 6 months, considering SP3 is almost ready for test flight and SP4 is undergoing final integration tests, 2 more airframes within 6 months is achievable.

Also, there is an internal information that SP3 had a few bottlenecks with regards to new manufacturing standards being introduced, these standards are expected to actually improve the production timeline for the other units. The internal talk is, past SP3 all units planned for 2016-17 wont face any production delays.

Good Day!

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## RPK



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## mkb95

video where ^^^ this photo was taken from
cant seem to be loading.
just click on "watch on facebook"




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342




@PARIKRAMA@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @water Car Engineer@dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22@Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx-@Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs]@Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp@Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @other

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## The Eagle

mkb95 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342



Can't see video? says unavailable


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## mkb95

The Eagle said:


> Can't see video? says unavailable


yeah.
just click on watch on facebook.
maybe uploader blocked it from playing on another sites.


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## Norge Stronk

mkb95 said:


> @other



@other 

This group tag thing is getting out of hand.

Nice video though.

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## Hellfire

The Eagle said:


> Can't see video? says unavailable



Yes. same here.

@mkb95



Norge Stronk said:


> @other
> 
> This group tag thing is getting out of hand.
> 
> Nice video though.



Happens once you get tagged in one group tag, thence it is copy paste

@mkb95 

am off facebook .. so thanks for tag

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## mkb95

hellfire said:


> Yes. same here.
> 
> @mkb95
> 
> 
> 
> Happens once you get tagged in one group tag, thence it is copy paste





mkb95 said:


> yeah.
> just click on watch on facebook.
> maybe uploader blocked it from playing on another sites.





hellfire said:


> Happens once you get tagged in one group tag, thence it is copy paste


i CP from parikrama who maybe copied from somebody else.

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## Aero

mkb95 said:


> video where ^^^ this photo was taken from
> cant seem to be loading.
> just click on "watch on facebook"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @water Car Engineer@dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22@Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx-@Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs]@Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp@Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @other


Nice Video


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## The Eagle

hellfire said:


> Yes. same here.
> 
> @mkb95
> 
> 
> 
> Happens once you get tagged in one group tag, thence it is copy paste
> 
> @mkb95
> 
> am off facebook .. so thanks for tag



People saying nice video while we can't...

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## RPK



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## Ali Zadi

A base is a very interesting place to be in you always get people to talk too. Anyway someone just showed me how good those M2000 are and how well they stack up to not only the Tejas but also the J10. That being said if India had modernized and make those in India that would make one hell of a difference.

According to the fly man he has carried a load more than the planes weight once or twice. I am very impressed to say the least still am a supporter of Tejas but have to say those M2000 sound like champs

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## RPK

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1194880880589965

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## RPK



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## #hydra#

RPK said:


>


Only in Indian PSUs people will work with out overalls and personal protecting equipments.

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## RPK

The Pilot's View from the Mighty Machine:
The Beautiful Landscape of Bahrain as seen from the Cockpit of the LCA Tejas. On the right is the Bahrain International F1 Circuit.

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## sudhir007

any update or news regarding FOC


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## danish_vij

mkb95 said:


> video where ^^^ this photo was taken from
> cant seem to be loading.
> just click on "watch on facebook"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @water Car Engineer@dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22@Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx-@Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs]@Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp@Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @other


please some one post the url here i cantt see the video
@The Eagle and me are waiting to see it

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## GuardianRED

danish_vij said:


> please some one post the url here i cantt see the video
> @The Eagle and me are waiting to see it


*




 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342




*
_*Not happening pal - best you go to the Tejas LCA page on fb*_

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## danish_vij

GuardianRED said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _*Not happening pal - best you go to the Tejas LCA page on fb*_





GuardianRED said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1155744377853342
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _*Not happening pal - best you go to the Tejas LCA page on fb*_


yea thats he last resort now


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## RPK

An Unreleased Photo from the Cockpit of the Tejas from Bahrain International Air Show 2016 with the HAL Dhruv Helicopters flying back after its Display. 
The Sarang display team of Indian Air force formed in October 2003 with the aim of showcasing professionalism of the Indian Air Force and giant leap by Indian Aviation Industry. The word Sarang means peacock in Sanskrit and the team epitomises beauty and grace of peacock - the hallmark of its display.

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## RPK

“It's my nature to be Kind, Gentle and Humane, But Remember, when it comes to matters of Protecting my Country and my People, Fear me! For I'm also the most Deadliest one, who is Powerful and Relentless” - Officers of the Indian Armed Forces

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## RPK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780999986469298176

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## GuardianRED

*Tejas SP-3 maiden flight successful, all eyes on Hindon......*


Bengaluru: The third series production (SP-3) variant of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas had its first flight in Bengaluru on Wednesday. The flight was piloted by Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd), a veteran who has been associated with the project for a while now.

According to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) sources, the first flight lasted for 15 minutes.“It took off around 8.40 am in the morning. The pilot wanted to make use of the favourable early morning weather and decided to go for it (flight) after the aircraft was cleared by various agencies. The flight lasted about 15 minutes,” an official said.

As reported by Mathrubhumi earlier, the flight was on expected lines following the completion of engine ground run, low\high speed taxi trials.

HAL is racing against the time to see whether it can push SP-3 for the 84th Air Force Day Parade at Hindon Air Force Station on October 8. It is now certain that SP-1 and SP-2 will be flying at AFS Hindon. HAL is hoping against hope to prepare SP-3 for couple of additional flights in the next two to three days.

“The painting normally takes time and we are not sure if they (HAL) will be in a position to ready the aircraft soon. Our teams from different stations have already landed here (Hindon) ahead of the parade. We have SOPs to follow and then there is a FDR (full dress rehearsal) as well,” says an IAF official.
The first flight of SP-1 was on September 1, 2014 while the SP-2 had its maiden sortie on March 23, 2016. HAL says each aircraft in the SP block will be as per their new rate of production mandate. 

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-3-hal-lca-hindon-air-force-station-1.1387816

Note : Can anyone Confirm the Pic is of SP3?


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## nang2

GuardianRED said:


> *Tejas SP-3 maiden flight successful, all eyes on Hindon......*
> 
> 
> Bengaluru: The third series production (SP-3) variant of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas had its first flight in Bengaluru on Wednesday. The flight was piloted by Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd), a veteran who has been associated with the project for a while now.
> 
> According to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) sources, the first flight lasted for 15 minutes.“It took off around 8.40 am in the morning. The pilot wanted to make use of the favourable early morning weather and decided to go for it (flight) after the aircraft was cleared by various agencies. The flight lasted about 15 minutes,” an official said.
> 
> As reported by Mathrubhumi earlier, the flight was on expected lines following the completion of engine ground run, low\high speed taxi trials.
> 
> HAL is racing against the time to see whether it can push SP-3 for the 84th Air Force Day Parade at Hindon Air Force Station on October 8. It is now certain that SP-1 and SP-2 will be flying at AFS Hindon. HAL is hoping against hope to prepare SP-3 for couple of additional flights in the next two to three days.
> 
> “The painting normally takes time and we are not sure if they (HAL) will be in a position to ready the aircraft soon. Our teams from different stations have already landed here (Hindon) ahead of the parade. We have SOPs to follow and then there is a FDR (full dress rehearsal) as well,” says an IAF official.
> The first flight of SP-1 was on September 1, 2014 while the SP-2 had its maiden sortie on March 23, 2016. HAL says each aircraft in the SP block will be as per their new rate of production mandate.
> 
> http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-3-hal-lca-hindon-air-force-station-1.1387816
> 
> Note : Can anyone Confirm the Pic is of SP3?


How can you tell this is SP-3, not SP-4 or SP-5?


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## Ankit Kumar 002

nang2 said:


> How can you tell this is SP-3, not SP-4 or SP-5?



4th one hasn't yet been 100% compete. Then there are ground tests and then first flight. SP4 is 2 months away. 

But after that in 3 months SP5 and SP6 will be delivered. 

By march At least 6 serial production aircrafts will be in service

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## GuardianRED

nang2 said:


> How can you tell this is SP-3, not SP-4 or SP-5?


Usually S/No on the Tail, we can say which SP it is. BUT the posted pic, can't say


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## ashok321

*Tejas-SP3 completes maiden flight*

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Tejas-SP3-completes-maiden-flight/articleshow/54564877.cms






BENGALURU: *The third series production Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas-SP3, on Wednesday took to the skies for the first time in a successful 15-minute sortie.*

Sources in HAL told TOI that the first profiling of the aircraft was satisfactory and that most parameters that were to be checked were fulfilled. "The flight was restricted to only 15 minutes because of the low-hanging clouds, the initial plan was to fly for longer," a source in the LCA complex said.

Tejas-SP3 had undergone the low-speed taxi trials (LSTT) on Friday (September 23) as reported by TOI earlier, which was followed by the high-speed taxi trials (HSTT).

Sources said that two more important sorties are scheduled in the coming days, a successful completion of which are crucial before the handing over of the aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The IAF, on July 1 this year raised the first squadron of Tejas, which became the first squadron of an indigenously developed fighter aircraft. "*Although the heart (engine) of the aircraft is foreign and several other component are imported, the aircraft was completely designed and developed here, unlike any other fighter aircraft,*" an IAF source pointed out.

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## W@rwolf

GuardianRED said:


> *Tejas SP-3 maiden flight successful, all eyes on Hindon......*
> 
> 
> Bengaluru: The third series production (SP-3) variant of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas had its first flight in Bengaluru on Wednesday. The flight was piloted by Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd), a veteran who has been associated with the project for a while now.
> 
> According to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) sources, the first flight lasted for 15 minutes.“It took off around 8.40 am in the morning. The pilot wanted to make use of the favourable early morning weather and decided to go for it (flight) after the aircraft was cleared by various agencies. The flight lasted about 15 minutes,” an official said.
> 
> As reported by Mathrubhumi earlier, the flight was on expected lines following the completion of engine ground run, low\high speed taxi trials.
> 
> HAL is racing against the time to see whether it can push SP-3 for the 84th Air Force Day Parade at Hindon Air Force Station on October 8. It is now certain that SP-1 and SP-2 will be flying at AFS Hindon. HAL is hoping against hope to prepare SP-3 for couple of additional flights in the next two to three days.
> 
> “The painting normally takes time and we are not sure if they (HAL) will be in a position to ready the aircraft soon. Our teams from different stations have already landed here (Hindon) ahead of the parade. We have SOPs to follow and then there is a FDR (full dress rehearsal) as well,” says an IAF official.
> The first flight of SP-1 was on September 1, 2014 while the SP-2 had its maiden sortie on March 23, 2016. HAL says each aircraft in the SP block will be as per their new rate of production mandate.
> 
> http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-3-hal-lca-hindon-air-force-station-1.1387816
> 
> Note : Can anyone Confirm the Pic is of SP3?



Its SP-1, Pic taken in 2015.

http://hal-India.com/Indigenous Fighter and Helicopter to Fly at Bahrain Air Show/ND__148

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## GuardianRED

W@rwolf said:


> Its SP-1, Pic taken in 2015.
> 
> http://hal-India.com/Indigenous Fighter and Helicopter to Fly at Bahrain Air Show/ND__148




Alright , so we do know that the SP3 did take flight BUT we don't have any official pic yet, maybe in the coming day


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## NKVD

GuardianRED said:


> Alright , so we do know that the SP3 did take flight BUT we don't have any official pic yet, maybe in the coming day


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## ni8mare

NKVD said:


>


its old....too


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## GuardianRED

NKVD said:


>


S/N for the SP series , should be on the Tail....LA-500(3?)


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## aman_rai

Stil slow... need to ramp up production... any news on foc...???


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## GuardianRED

aman_rai said:


> Stil slow... need to ramp up production... any news on foc...???


read Post #1981 , possible 4 More frames to be added to the Flying Daggers in 6 - 7 Months Total - 6 Nos.

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## nang2

GuardianRED said:


> read Post #1981 , possible 4 More frames to be added to the Flying Daggers in 6 - 7 Months Total - 6 Nos.


Still slow. Chinese J-20 was inducted roughly at the same time as Tejas. Both are in LRIP mode. Two J-20s were delivered, just as Tejas. Two new just rolled out of the assembly line and took flight.

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## GuardianRED

nang2 said:


> Still slow. Chinese J-20 was inducted roughly at the same time as Tejas. Both are in LRIP mode. Two J-20s were delivered, just as Tejas. Two new just rolled out of the assembly line and took flight.


Good for you


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## RangeHunter

nang2 said:


> Still slow. Chinese J-20 was inducted roughly at the same time as Tejas. Both are in LRIP mode. Two J-20s were delivered, just as Tejas. Two new just rolled out of the assembly line and took flight.


Was it even inducted? It was said that it will get inducted in 2018 right?do You have any links to the above mentioned subject?

We are supposed to get first 20 Tejas by 2018. The next 100 will be improved versions and that's why they are taking time as they are handling the manufacturing and the R&D simultaneously.


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## RPK

The LCA Tejas performs during the opening day of the Aero India 2013 at Yelahanka Air Force Station in Bengaluru. More than 600 Aviation Companies along with delegations from 78 countries participated in the five-day event that started way back in 1996.

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## Ali Zadi

There is a lot of hustle in the base today for some reason but today I had a chance to see this one of these beauties in real life, the fit and fish has a lot to be desired for. I have seen su30mki and this is similar in fit and finish. No doubt the F16 i had a chance to see in Taiwan seems better build.


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## GuardianRED

Ali Zadi said:


> There is a lot of hustle in the base today for some reason but today I had a chance to see this one of these beauties in real life, the fit and fish has a lot to be desired for. I have seen su30mki and this is similar in fit and finish. No doubt the F16 i had a chance to see in Taiwan seems better build.


can you elaborate pls


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## Ali Zadi

GuardianRED said:


> can you elaborate pls



while feeling the skin I could feel the space between panels that is something was also there with the su30mki but not with the f16. It feels like the gaps are bigger in between the panels, this might be because it just landed or of some other reason.


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## GuardianRED

Ali Zadi said:


> while feeling the skin I could feel the space between panels that is something was also there with the su30mki but not with the f16. It feels like the gaps are bigger in between the panels, this might be because it just landed or of some other reason.


Well, I have seen many Documentaries (still doesn't make me an expert) on assembly of frames, once complete still have small gaps - it was only after days of sealing and paint , we can see a smooth finish.

Now in the case of the LCA, we can see this is the same, many fly with a basic paint job or no paint. This we can see on the PVs and LSPs with paint peeling off. Hopefully, the SPs are better - which one did u see

Wrt the Su30s, did see a new frame in Aero India beautiful, and also HD pics of Heavy Weathered Su30 too, and yes like u mentioned panel gaps and just landed


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## nang2

RangeHunter said:


> Was it even inducted? It was said that it will get inducted in 2018 right?do You have any links to the above mentioned subject?
> 
> We are supposed to get first 20 Tejas by 2018. The next 100 will be improved versions and that's why they are taking time as they are handling the manufacturing and the R&D simultaneously.


J20 is at the same stage as Tejas, i.e. IOC. Production rate is LRIP. But China doesn't consider IOC adoption as official. Only FOC is regarded as induction. It is now just the time for air force to devise tactics and logistic process. For details, pls follow the J20 thread in China section here in PDF.

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## mirage

nang2 said:


> Still slow. Chinese J-20 was inducted roughly at the same time as Tejas. Both are in LRIP mode. Two J-20s were delivered, just as Tejas. Two new just rolled out of the assembly line and took flight.


hehe , chinese J-20 .

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## RPK

The beauty of the Cranked Double Delta Planform

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## R!CK

The LCA Naval Protype - NP-1 Prior to Touchdown after the Maiden Successful Ski Jump in December 2014 from the Shore Based Test Facility in Goa with the Indian Navy Helicopter Chetak next to the Runway.






_Source: #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC#PhotoIndia #IADN_

Good Day!

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## R!CK

Tejas passed the flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet (270 m). Tejas recorded a speed of over 1350 km/h.






Source: #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC#PhotoIndia #IADN

Good Day all!

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## RPK

LCA Tejas at Goa: Sea level and weapon trials at Goa back in Nov 2010
INS Hansa is located at Dabolim in Goa and was commissioned on 05 September 1961. The base is home to the Indian Navy's premier air squadrons. This naval air station, which serves as the Indian Navy's largest airbase, has grown to become a full-fledged airfield that handles both domestic as well as international flights round the clock.
Both the Air Force & Naval LCA undergo important Trials in Goa from time to time which is essential in getting the Aircrafts ready for the Final Versions.

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## ashok321

India’s elite indigenous fighter jet crosses a major benchmark this week ahead of being deemed combat ready providing the country with a masterful fighter jet at a fraction of the cost of Western fighter jets.




India entered a new era in its budding arms manufacturing industry this week when the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) completed its maiden flight without incident ahead of the vaunted fighter jet being deemed ready for combat applications giving the Indian people a potentially major new industry and saving the country’s taxpayers a massive amount of money on providing for their national defense.


The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) third series production of the Tejas LCA, nicknamed Tejas-SP3, completed its first maiden flight in Bangalore on September 28 with the sortie lasting 15 minutes during which time the performance of the aircraft was tested.

"The flight was restricted to just 15 minutes due to low-hanging clouds, but it was enough to profile it in detail," said Gopal Suttar, spokesman for Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL).

The fighter jet awaits two more test flights in the coming days before the aircraft will be transferred to the possession of the Indian Air Force with the Tejas-SP3 expected to join two earlier Tejas LCA in the Indian Air Force during this year’s 84th Air Force Day parade on October 8th just outside of New Delhi. Western defense analysts have largely criticized the Tejas LCA as inferior to its Western counterparts citing over 50 flaws in the fighter jet discovered upon analysis – a number that seems overwhelming but is far from unusual for high-end aircraft following production.

The Tejas LCA, however, flies at a swift clip of 1,370 MPH (2204kmh) with advanced thrust shifting capabilities making the jet an elite aircraft for dogfights and its small size provides it will stealth-like characteristics with a reduced radar signature and the jet costs only $33 million per unit compared to $40-50 million for F16s or $100 million for the Rafale.

India also hopes that an indigenous fighter jet will allow the Indian Air Force to modify the jet to its specifics providing it a practical edge in the air unlike with the purchase of Western fighter jets which not only payments to foreign defense contractors but also often slow down repairs and modifications.

The on board technologies on the Tejas LCA include Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile firing capability along with a highly advanced radar system providing for the system to put the nearly three tons of weapons it is certified to carry – including laser-guided 500kg (1,102lbs) bombs and short-range R-73 missiles – to full use.






https://sputniknews.com/military/20161002/1045930017/india-tejas-fighter-jet-maiden.html

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## New Resolve



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## Carbonated

New Resolve said:


>


Indian paying billions for 4th Gen fighter Rafale while claiming 35 year old design is 4.5 Gen 

@Windjammer @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon

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## Zee-shaun

When did it become gen 4.5 fighter?
Some vedic technology integrated into it already?
Should we call it Hanuman Tejaj now?

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## Soulspeek

No. We will call it Al-Buraq. Happy naa? 



Zee-shaun said:


> When did it become gen 4.5 fighter?
> Some vedic technology integrated into it already?
> Should we call it Hanuman Tejaj now?

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## ranadd

Carbonated said:


> Indian paying billions for 4th Gen fighter Rafale while claiming 35 year old design is 4.5 Gen
> 
> @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon



I know right.

Jokes aside, a wonderful answer from someone else regarding what is generations. And its 26 years.



> Fourth-generation jet fighter is a general classification of jet fighters in service from approximately 1980 to present day, and represent design concepts of the 1970s.
> 
> Fourth-generation designs are heavily influenced by lessons learned from the previous generation of combat aircraft. Long-range air-to-air missiles, originally thought to make dogfighting obsolete, proved less influential than expected, precipitating a renewed emphasis on maneuverability.
> During the period in question, maneuverability was enhanced by relaxed static stability, made possible by introduction of the fly-by-wire(FBW) flight control system (FLCS), which in turn was possible due to advances in digital computers and system integration techniques. Analog avionics, required to enable FBW operations, became a fundamental requirement and began to be replaced by digital flight control systems in the latter half of the 1980s.
> The further advance of microcomputers in the 1980s and 1990s permitted rapid upgrades to the avionics over the lifetimes of these fighters, incorporating system upgrades such as active electronically scanned array (AESA), digital avionics buses and Infra-red search and track (IRST).
> 
> Due to the dramatic enhancement of capabilities in these upgraded fighters and in new designs of the 1990s that reflected these new capabilities, the US Government has taken to using the designation 4.5 generation to refer to these later designs. This is intended to reflect a class of fighters that are evolutionary upgrades of the 4th generation incorporating integrated avionics suites, advanced weapons efforts to make the (mostly) conventionally designed aircraft nonetheless less easily detectable, and trackable as a response to advancing missile and radar technology. Inherent airframe design features exist, and include masking of turbine-blades and application of advanced sometimes radar-absorbent materials, but not the distinctive low-observable configurations of the latest aircraft, referred to as fifth-generation fighters or aircraft such as the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II.


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## R!CK

Carbonated said:


> Indian paying billions for 4th Gen fighter Rafale while claiming 35 year old design is 4.5 Gen
> 
> @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon





Zee-shaun said:


> When did it become gen 4.5 fighter?
> Some vedic technology integrated into it already?
> Should we call it Hanuman Tejaj now?



It is only a 4th generation aircraft. Please excuse our media who can barely make out the difference between fixed wing aircraft and rotor-crafts.

Good Day all!

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## zambino

Zee-shaun said:


> When did it become gen 4.5 fighter?
> Some vedic technology integrated into it already?
> Should we call it Hanuman Tejaj now?


Just like your roohani taaqat wala jf17blunder is comparable to rafale like that

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## EAK

zambino said:


> Just like your roohani taaqat wala jf17blunder is comparable to rafale like that



how can our JF be better then your  .. Hanumani Laraku vimaan.. :::: Courtesy part indian defence minister..


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## zambino

It is better than rafale leave tejas. U forgot your Chinese made jets also have mard e momin tag. AndI think u forgot 1jf thunder=10tejas

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## Pakistan First

From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight. 

Is it really something to be proud of?

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## Lord Of Gondor

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?


First flight was in the year 2001.
This is the maiden flight of the SP3.
And yes it's an achievement worth being proud of.

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## Skull and Bones

Like I said, sputnik news is far from reality

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## ranadd

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?



Please do not twist the words. Maiden flight of the program was TD-1 in 2001.

From an engineering perspective, Yes it is a huge accomplishment. Many were not hopeful or were banking against it.

The amount of countries that have tried to do the 100% component things are less than 5 or so. They are all in the UNSC. One of them, China is lagging behind in several areas comparing to its western or northern partners. But they will close the gap in 5 or 7 years for sure. India created a supply chain that didn't exist before. It literally created new businesses. The amount of IP registered itself is commendable(I have first hand experience in this). If the program was NOT linked to kaveri, this would have been a hallmark development program. Instead of the same project Tejas-Kaveri should have been two different projects. Just like now.

The biggest drawback of this program and still is, the program management side. (2001 to 2016 only 18 or 19 frames completed.)

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## wiseone2

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?



it depends upon how much resources were allocated to the project
without trying you do not know where you stand


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## sudhir007

As i read lca can carry 3.5T weapon. but is it possible to for lca to carry 3.5T weapon on 7 hardpoint


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## My-Analogous

zambino said:


> It is better than rafale leave tejas. U forgot your Chinese made jets also have mard e momin tag. AndI think u forgot 1jf thunder=10tejas



But question is we have 100+ JF17 and didn't find your even 10 LCA (Least Combat ready Aircraft). For 100+ you guys need 1000 atleast.


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## Allen Iverson

My-Analogous said:


> But question is we have 100+ JF17 and didn't find your even 10 LCA (Least Combat ready Aircraft). For 100+ you guys need 1000 atleast.


Anywhich ways, now that all the testing and evaluations are done, and the first squadron is complete with then inclusion of SP-4, it is only a matter of time before we can churn out in numbers..


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## RPK

The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas undergoing Trials with New Weapons






Getting ready for the Takeoff with a live CCM. 

From the 2013 Trials in Goa

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## ayesha.a

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?



The maiden flight was in 2001. The start of the design phase, IIRC, was in 1993. Quite a worthy feat for a country with no aviation industry or experience or expertise at the time. (In development; HAL was a manufacturing powerhouse in Asia even then.)

"Be proud about" is a difficult concept. That depends on the person, what she chooses to be proud about. If you are somebody who cannot be proud of anything less than the best, then you cannot be proud of anything other than designing and operationalizing an F-22 Raptor, in this day and age. Anything else is sub-par.



My-Analogous said:


> But question is we have 100+ JF17 and didn't find your even 10 LCA (Least Combat ready Aircraft). For 100+ you guys need 1000 atleast.



Oh but we have manufactured 1000s of fighter aircrafts, for the 100 that you have. (Actually it's less than a 100.) LCA is something India is trying to develop by herself, and that's a lot different from manufacturing something that was designed, prototyped and flight tested elsewhere. It's a whole different level of complexity.

HAL has manufactured much more complex jets than JF-17; was doing so for decades. But designing in-house, flight testing for years to worm out every niggle, and putting forth a finished product that can be competitive in contemporary times, is a whole different endeavor. You will understand that the day you try to design your own aircraft - until then, you can take pride in Chinese gifts.

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## Penguin

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?


*1983 *DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft
*1986 *Government allocates 575 crores for the LCA programme.
*1986 *Programme to develop an indigenous powerplant (engine) launched at GTRE.
*1987* Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants
*1990* Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
*1993 *Full funding started from April, full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
*1995 *First technology demonstrator, TD-1, rolled out on 17 November 1995
*1997 *Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) for LCA design work started at HAL Hyderabad and the LRDE
*1998 *Second technology demonstrator, TD-2, rolled out 

Technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies plagued the prototypes and they remain grounded.

*2001 *4 January - LCA’s maiden flight successfully completed by Technology Demonstrator TD-1
*2002 *6 June - TD-2 makes a successful maiden flight
*2003* 25 November - Prototype vehicle PV-1 makes a successful maiden flight.
*2005* 1 December - PV-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
*2006 *1 December - The PV-3 flew for the first time
*2007 *25 April - The first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight
*2008 *16 June – Tejas second Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-2) made its first flight
*2009* 26 November - Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas (PV-5) made its maiden flight [PV-4 therefore sometime between 1 December 2006 and 29 November 2009]
*2009* 15 December - Indian government sanctioned Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.
*2010 *23 April - LCA Tejas LSP-3 Makes Maiden Flight. LSP-3 is almost the final configuration.
*2010 *2 June - LCA Tejas LSP-4 Makes maiden flight. The flight marks the first time for a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.
*2010* 19 November - LCA Tejas LSP-5 Makes Maiden Flight.
*2012 *9 March - LCA Tejas LSP-7 Makes Maiden Flight [LSP-6 therefore sometime between 19 NOvember 2012 and 9 March 2012]
*2012* 27 April - 1st Naval LCA prototype NP-1 makes maiden flight
*2013 *31 March - LSP 8 had a successful maiden test flight at Bangalore
*2013 *28 September - The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas successfully completed the maiden engine relight test on Friday—a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC-2).
*2015 *17 January – IAF gets first indigenously built light combat aircraft Tejas - The LCA Tejas Series Production-1 (SP1)
*2015 *7 February – First flight of the Naval prototype (NP-2)
*2015 *30 September – Decision was taken to start mass-production of the Tejas Mk-1A
*2015 *1 December – Indian Government announced it will order 100 Tejas Mk-1As for the IAF
*2016* 1 July - Tejas SP (Mk. 1) formally inducted into IAF. First squadron at Bengaluru, to be fully equipped by 2018.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_HAL_Tejas

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## Carbonated

Penguin said:


> *2001 *4 January - LCA’s maiden flight successfully completed by Technology Demonstrator TD-1
> *2002 *6 June - TD-2 makes a successful maiden flight
> *2003* 25 November - Prototype vehicle PV-1 makes a successful maiden flight.
> *2005* 1 December - PV-2 makes a successful maiden flight.
> *2006 *1 December - The PV-3 flew for the first time
> *2007 *25 April - The first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight
> *2008 *16 June – Tejas second Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-2) made its first flight
> *2009* 26 November - Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas (PV-5) made its maiden flight [PV-4 therefore sometime between 1 December 2006 and 29 November 2009]
> *2009* 15 December - Indian government sanctioned Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.
> *2010 *23 April - LCA Tejas LSP-3 Makes Maiden Flight. LSP-3 is almost the final configuration.
> *2010 *2 June - LCA Tejas LSP-4 Makes maiden flight. The flight marks the first time for a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.
> *2010* 19 November - LCA Tejas LSP-5 Makes Maiden Flight.
> *2012 *9 March - LCA Tejas LSP-7 Makes Maiden Flight [LSP-6 therefore sometime between 19 NOvember 2012 and 9 March 2012]
> *2012* 27 April - 1st Naval LCA prototype NP-1 makes maiden flight
> *2013 *31 March - LSP 8 had a successful maiden test flight at Bangalore
> *2013 *28 September - The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas successfully completed the maiden engine relight test on Friday—a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC-2).
> *2015 *17 January – IAF gets first indigenously built light combat aircraft Tejas - The LCA Tejas Series Production-1 (SP1)
> *2015 *7 February – First flight of the Naval prototype (NP-2)
> *2015 *30 September – Decision was taken to start mass-production of the Tejas Mk-1A
> *2015 *1 December – Indian Government announced it will order 100 Tejas Mk-1As for the IAF
> *2016* 1 July - Tejas SP (Mk. 1) formally inducted into IAF. First squadron raised at Bengaluru, to be fully equipped by 2018.


16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.

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## ayesha.a

Carbonated said:


> 16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.



Yea, we could not develop a cutting edge engine in time. Modern, FADEC engines are extremely complex to design and manufacture, and in hindsight, maybe we erred in coupling the development of an engine and the development of an aircraft together. ADA and HAL should have designed an airframe around an existing engine.

But you know, "Something attempted, something done." The work on "Kaveri" will be the stepping stone to the work on "Kabini".

The rest of our post is...BS, for lack of a suitable alternative word.

BTW, could you please list out the "many snags" in the landing gear? In bullet points, preferably.

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## Carbonated

ayesha.a said:


> BTW, could you please list out the "many snags" in the landing gear? In bullet points, preferably.


Google it don't act like the cave girl in your D.P

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Carbonated said:


> 16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design originfrontended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.



Do you know the time it took for Gripen or F16 or FA18 to obtain FOC from their respective Airforces after the first flight ? 

The CAG report from 2013 had data from the time when IOC2 was obtained. Of course IOC2 won't fulfill the need. 

As for 30 year old design ,its just 26 years old. 

Engine was failure ? Did it burn or blasted ? Try counting the number of nations who can boast of a engine of their own. 

There are few nations in list if top populous nations without a 100c.c. Engine built in house. 

Radar ? That's not far away , atleast for us. 

And for being a failure , might be for some who have never done anything more than painting, but certainly not for us. 


@WAJsal @waz @Oscar please merge the thread to sticky one and warn the OP about repeatedly opening multiple threads for LCA despite having a sticky thread. Thanks.


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## ayesha.a

Carbonated said:


> Google it don't act like the cave girl in your D.P



I really don't need to, since I have a lot more knowledge about the project than you do, judging by your rudimentary attempt at "criticism". But surprise me...do point out the "many" flaws in the landing gear.

When you make assertions, be prepared to elaborate - if you ask the other person to find out, it means that you were making things out of thin air.

By "many", you mean more than three? Do list them out point by point.

And please do mention how many of those (if there is more than one) are unsolvable issues.

Last but not least, Lisa Simpson is not a cave-girl. She belongs to a floating timeline, beginning in 1989. Did you perhaps confuse her with the Flintstones?

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## Carbonated

ayesha.a said:


> Lisa Simpson


I don't like lizards either


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## Penguin

*1991 *the Fighter China project was launched.
*1995 *Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
*1998 *in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
*1999 *In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
*2001 *The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
*2002*, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
*2003 *The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
*2004 *The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
*2005 *Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
*2006 *PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
*2007 *On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
*2008 *At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
*2009 *Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
*2013 *On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
*2015 *On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder

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## Peaceful Civilian

Congrats. With mix of western, Israeli system, it is big threat for opponents.

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## Allen Iverson

All troll wars aside, we feel this SP-3 is the best thing the Indian Defence PSU could give us as a Dussehra gift..


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## Penguin

So, basically, the time from project initation to roll out of first aircraft in both cases (JF-17 and Tejas) is 12 years. The difference is that the LCA technology demonstrator suffered technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies that resulted in the protoypes (TD-1 and TD 2) being grounded (for 6 and 4 years, respectively). So, the difference is in date of first flight. Here one should bare in mind that Pakistan had the advantage of working with experienced CAC, and having a a more conventional (mature) basic design. Nevertheless, JF-17 experienced redesign 2004-2006. So, there too were some issues. Production (of parts) in Pakistan starts only in 2008.



Carbonated said:


> 16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.


Sure, the Chinese co-developed JF-17 is brilliant. Happy now?

It doesn't come with a Russian RD093 engine or, alternatively, a Chinese WS-13? Chinese radar? Chinese FBW system? Chinese helmet mounted sight? Chinese weaponry? It wasn't so that the original intent of Pakistan was to use Western electronics and avionics?

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## Carbonated

@Penguin 
Sir can I ask something since your flags are not there, from where are you?


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## Penguin

Carbonated said:


> @Penguin
> Sir can I ask something since your flags are not there, from where are you?


Why, Antarctica of course, that's where we Penguins dwell!







Care to buy some of my merchandise?

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## ranadd

Carbonated said:


> 16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.



It is in operation with IAF. Have you read the audit reports from the trillion dollar project called F35?. When you have civilian government with checks and balances that is how it is. Transparency, it is called. When have you heard of such instances from China or Pakistan?

If you can take a second to appreciate the engineering feat (no, its not due to jingoism.) you will know the first version is beyond a success. Tejas as a fighter succeeded. The engine didn't get 100% results. If we go by Chinese standards, even the engine would have been in operation. No, but India had the retarded idea to go for all at the first go itself.

My friend, when someone else does something you haven't done or not even trying to do, try to appreciate it.

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## newindiandefence

Penguin said:


> So, basically, the time from project initation to roll out of first aircraft in both cases (JF-17 and Tejas) is 12 years. The difference is that the LCA technology demonstrator suffered technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies that resulted in the protoypes (TD-1 and TD 2) being grounded (for 6 and 4 years, respectively). So, the difference is in date of first flight. Here one should bare in mind that Pakistan had the advantage of working with experienced CAC, and having a a more conventional (mature) basic design. Nevertheless, JF-17 experienced redesign 2004-2006. So, there too were some issues. Production (of parts) in Pakistan starts only in 2008.
> 
> 
> Sure, the Chinese co-developed JF-17 is brilliant. Happy now?
> 
> It doesn't come with a Russian RD093 engine or, alternatively, a Chinese WS-13? Chinese radar? Chinese FBW system? Chinese helmet mounted sight? Chinese weaponry? It wasn't so that the original intent of Pakistan was to use Western electronics and avionics?



Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..


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## hell9214

Penguin said:


> *1991 *thter China project was launched.
> *1995 *Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
> *1998 *in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
> *1999 *In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
> *2001 *The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
> *2002*, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
> *2003 *The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
> *2004 *The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
> *2005 *Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
> *2006 *PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
> *2007 *On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
> *2008 *At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
> *2009 *Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
> *2013 *On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
> *2015 *On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder



Nd this jet has nothing new except missile nd engine.nd it has same old design still body don't have fly by wire technique, nd mostly it has lowest flight test before induction.... nd don't forget its NT ur jet only its a joint venture so India have different jet of joint venture nd u know that if u want to compare it with that we cn....


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## #hydra#

Penguin said:


> *1991 *the Fighter China project was launched.
> *1995 *Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
> *1998 *in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
> *1999 *In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
> *2001 *The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
> *2002*, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
> *2003 *The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
> *2004 *The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
> *2005 *Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
> *2006 *PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
> *2007 *On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
> *2008 *At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
> *2009 *Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
> *2013 *On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
> *2015 *On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder


Pakistani jf17 is a better managed project than LCA,its a fact. About the capabilities only time Will tells that.

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## Penguin

newindiandefence said:


> Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..


US sanctions blocked avionics for Pakistan



hell9214 said:


> Nd this jet has nothing new except missile nd engine.nd it has same old design still body don't have fly by wire technique, nd mostly it has lowest flight test before induction.... nd don't forget its NT ur jet only its a joint venture so India have different jet of joint venture nd u know that if u want to compare it with that we cn....


It is not an old airframe design. Just like that of the LCA isn't.



#hydra# said:


> Pakistani jf17 is a better managed project than LCA,its a fact. About the capabilities only time Will tells that.


Still, the nature of the project is different. And so is the starting point. And the project partners. The simpler, clearer the project (or the more complex and fuzzier) the easier (difficult) the project is to manage.

Does everything here have to be compared India/Pakistan and made into a competition. Can we just look at the merits per se?

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## Agent_47

*IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons*

Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.

Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”

“We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”

The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated:* “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”*

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

*“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”*

*Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.*

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) *at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar*, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. *The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” *that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

*Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”*

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

*“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha. *


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html

it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us. 
@PARIKRAMA

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## Echo_419

Agent_47 said:


> *IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons*
> 
> Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.
> 
> Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”
> 
> “We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”
> 
> The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated:* “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”*
> 
> Second fighter line
> 
> The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.
> 
> *“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”*
> 
> *Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.*
> 
> Jaguar
> 
> The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) *at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar*, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.
> 
> Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”
> 
> Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).
> 
> Indo-Russian FGFA
> 
> The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. *The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” *that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.
> 
> Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”
> 
> Tejas LCA
> 
> For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.
> 
> Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.
> 
> *Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”*
> 
> Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.
> 
> *“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha. *
> 
> 
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html
> 
> it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
> @PARIKRAMA



1 more foreign Aircraft besides Rafale?
Chutiya hai kya yeh & Shift the production of LCA to a private player already
@PARIKRAMA any idea why aren't they investing in the LCA & AMCA programme


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## #hydra#

Agent_47 said:


> *IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons*
> 
> Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.
> 
> Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”
> 
> “We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”
> 
> The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated:* “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”*
> 
> Second fighter line
> 
> The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.
> 
> *“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”*
> 
> *Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.*
> 
> Jaguar
> 
> The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) *at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar*, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.
> 
> Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”
> 
> Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).
> 
> Indo-Russian FGFA
> 
> The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. *The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” *that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.
> 
> Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”
> 
> Tejas LCA
> 
> For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.
> 
> Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.
> 
> *Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”*
> 
> Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.
> 
> *“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha. *
> 
> 
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html
> 
> it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
> @PARIKRAMA


250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.


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## Agent_47

#hydra# said:


> 250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.


63 will be the committed number, extra orders will only come when MKI starts retiring .

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## My-Analogous

newindiandefence said:


> Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..



We also face same problem with avionics and engine and that is not an excuse



ayesha.a said:


> The maiden flight was in 2001. The start of the design phase, IIRC, was in 1993. Quite a worthy feat for a country with no aviation industry or experience or expertise at the time. (In development; HAL was a manufacturing powerhouse in Asia even then.)
> 
> "Be proud about" is a difficult concept. That depends on the person, what she chooses to be proud about. If you are somebody who cannot be proud of anything less than the best, then you cannot be proud of anything other than designing and operationalizing an F-22 Raptor, in this day and age. Anything else is sub-par.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh but we have manufactured 1000s of fighter aircrafts, for the 100 that you have. (Actually it's less than a 100.) LCA is something India is trying to develop by herself, and that's a lot different from manufacturing something that was designed, prototyped and flight tested elsewhere. It's a whole different level of complexity.
> 
> HAL has manufactured much more complex jets than JF-17; was doing so for decades. But designing in-house, flight testing for years to worm out every niggle, and putting forth a finished product that can be competitive in contemporary times, is a whole different endeavor. You will understand that the day you try to design your own aircraft - until then, you can take pride in Chinese gifts.



There is a big difference between manufacturing and assembling. Proof your claim that India manufactured 1000+ plane. This is very serious forum and we closely follows each and every development of LCA past couple of years and we know India aeronautics capacity. Please give us your reference of claim about India 1000+ manufacturing fighter planes .



Allen Iverson said:


> Anywhich ways, now that all the testing and evaluations are done, and the first squadron is complete with then inclusion of SP-4, it is only a matter of time before we can churn out in numbers..



For your knowledge. Please note that first sqd. will be ready in year 2018 as per latest HAL commitment. Best of luck and hope this time they are rightly given a correct date


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## hell9214

Peng: 8770639 said:


> US sanctions blocked avionics for Pakistan
> 
> 
> It is not an old airframe design. Just like that of the LCA isn't.
> 
> 
> Still, the nature of the project is different. And so is the starting point. And the project partners. The simpler, clearer the project (or the more complex and fuzzier) the easier (difficult) the project is to manage.
> 
> Does everything here have to be compared India/Pakistan and made into a competition. Can we just look at the merits per se?



Baby read some info don't be in dreams wake up LCA has one of the most advance airframe which has maximum amount of composite materials... nd where Jf 17 is based on old design with metal body don't compare both LCA design was way ahead of jf 17...


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## ashok321




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## ayesha.a

My-Analogous said:


> There is a big difference between manufacturing and assembling. Proof your claim that India manufactured 1000+ plane. This is very serious forum and we closely follows each and every development of LCA past couple of years and we know India aeronautics capacity. Please give us your reference of claim about India 1000+ manufacturing fighter planes .



Precisely my point. And further, there is a bigger difference between manufacturing and actually designing and developing. Pakistan is assembling or manufacturing Chinese designed JF-17, just like presently India is manufacturing MKIs, and in the past manufactured Jaguars, Migs etc.

If you want numbers, simply use google or Wiki - and if you can't, then tell me and I shall do it for you. Check out the number of MKIs, Jaguars, Gnats, mig-21s etc that HAL has manufactured. Also add the in house developed Maruts, Ajeets etc. The final tally is in far in excess of a 1000, and this is without adding the thousands of rotary wing aircrafts.

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> 250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.


In many ways the FGFA will be far superior to the F-22.

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> In many ways the FGFA will be far superior to the F-22.


I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.

Russians developed 34 from su27/30 so is there any chance for getting a strike variant for fgfa,mainly tailor made stealthy charectristics against surface to air radars.


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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.


The Avionics of the F-22 are actually pretty ancient (by modern standards) just because nature of technological development, stealth is a rather abstract concept and it will be impossible to compare as an outsider and the BVR engagement profiles will be shockingly similar IMHO. Many have already theorised that stealth (VLO) v stealth will likely lead to WVR fights more often than not and here the FGFA's far superior kinematic performance will outclass the F-22.

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> The Avionics of the F-22 are actually pretty ancient (by modern standards) just because nature of technological development, stealth is a rather abstract concept and it will be impossible to compare as an outsider and the BVR engagement profiles will be shockingly similar IMHO. Many have already theorised that stealth (VLO) v stealth will likely lead to WVR fights more often than not and here the FGFA's far superior kinematic performance will outclass the F-22.


May be u are right,is there any plan for strike variant for fgfa like su34.


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## mirage

Pakistan First said:


> From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian *26* years from design initiation to first maiden flight.
> 
> Is it really something to be proud of?


how bizarre !! try read some news and history about how Bharat made her own *cryogenic engine , *and the journey thereafter .


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## Gessler

#hydra# said:


> I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.



Adding to what @Abingdonboy said...

The F-22's avionics were cutting-edge 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. The PAK-FA will have a GaN-based AESA in the nose, side-looking arrays adding to the FoV, and the L-band AESAs providing a level of early warning against distant VLO targets...and all this is complimented by a 360-degree passive situational awareness package (101KS-X) which includes advanced QWIP-based IRSTs, a bi-spectral MAWS system (the 101KS-U distributed aperture EO sensors are similar to the F-35's EODAS system).

In comparison, the Raptor has a single GaAs-based radar, some MAWS and that's it. Aircraft situational awareness has moved ahead by leaps & bounds from there. And the gap will widen further in the next 10 years. A Rafale with all it's planned upgrades will have, by several magnitudes, better avionics & awareness than a Raptor. And FGFA will be better than Rafale in that department.

++

People have been assuming a lot, comparing F22's frontal-aspect RCS against the 360-degree average of a lot of planes. While the complete stealth treatment for PAK-FA (let alone FGFA) is still not seen by the public. Anyway, no one is disputing the fact that F22 will have a smaller radar signature than PAK-FA, but by what margin? That's the defining question.

Any increase in RCS is easily offset by the fact that the sensory capabilities on the PAK-FA will be far better & more advanced than any Raptor or F-35.

++

The Russians are well into building the next generation of air-to-air weapons (with AESA seekers, and Ramjet propulsion) for the PAK-FA. The conventional AIM-120C-7/D AMRAAM and Sidewinders will be no match. Only the AESA-equipped Meteor that UK and Japan are working on co-developing can stand up.

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## #hydra#

Gessler said:


> Adding to what @Abingdonboy said...
> 
> The F-22's avionics were cutting-edge 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. The PAK-FA will have a GaN-based AESA in the nose, side-looking arrays adding to the FoV, and the L-band AESAs providing a level of early warning against distant VLO targets...and all this is complimented by a 360-degree passive situational awareness package (101KS-X) which includes advanced QWIP-based IRSTs, a bi-spectral MAWS system (the 101KS-U distributed aperture EO sensors are similar to the F-35's EODAS system).
> 
> In comparison, the Raptor has a single GaAs-based radar, some MAWS and that's it. Aircraft situational awareness has moved ahead by leaps & bounds from there. And the gap will widen further in the next 10 years. A Rafale with all it's planned upgrades will have, by several magnitudes, better avionics & awareness than a Raptor. And FGFA will be better than Rafale in that department.
> 
> ++
> 
> People have been assuming a lot, comparing F22's frontal-aspect RCS against the 360-degree average of a lot of planes. While the complete stealth treatment for PAK-FA (let alone FGFA) is still not seen by the public. Anyway, no one is disputing the fact that F22 will have a smaller radar signature than PAK-FA, but by what margin? That's the defining question.
> 
> Any increase in RCS is easily offset by the fact that the sensory capabilities on the PAK-FA will be far better & more advanced than any Raptor or F-35.
> 
> ++
> 
> The Russians are well into building the next generation of air-to-air weapons (with AESA seekers, and Ramjet propulsion) for the PAK-FA. The conventional AIM-120C-7/D AMRAAM and Sidewinders will be no match. Only the AESA-equipped Meteor that UK and Japan are working on co-developing can stand up.


1) then why IAF is not happy with is this exceptional design?
2) by your logic regarding age of design,the new f35 must be better than 22. 
A) Then y other air forces not happy with 35
B) if f22 is that much irrelevant, y uncle Sam is notbselling to others in same time they ate selling f35


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## My-Analogous

ayesha.a said:


> Precisely my point. And further, there is a bigger difference between manufacturing and actually designing and developing. Pakistan is assembling or manufacturing Chinese designed JF-17, just like presently India is manufacturing MKIs, and in the past manufactured Jaguars, Migs etc.
> 
> If you want numbers, simply use google or Wiki - and if you can't, then tell me and I shall do it for you. Check out the number of MKIs, Jaguars, Gnats, mig-21s etc that HAL has manufactured. Also add the in house developed Maruts, Ajeets etc. The final tally is in far in excess of a 1000, and this is without adding the thousands of rotary wing aircrafts.


What you refer is not manufacturing but assembly and Pakistan is not assembling JF17 but manufacturing JF17 and we imported around 42% part of JF17 from China rest all manufactured in Pakistan with transfer of technology from China and others


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## ranadd

My-Analogous said:


> What you refer is not manufacturing but assembly and Pakistan is not assembling JF17 but manufacturing JF17 and we imported around 42% part of JF17 from China rest all manufactured in Pakistan with transfer of technology from China and others



What?? Seriously?

Please add sarcasm with a '\s'.


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## nang2

ranadd said:


> What?? Seriously?
> 
> Please add sarcasm with a '\s'.


Probably not. China has no objection to let Pakistan manufacture everything JF-17 so China can focus more on R&D. The main issue would be whether Pakistan can pick it up.


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## ranadd

nang2 said:


> Probably not. China has no objection to let Pakistan manufacture everything JF-17 so China can focus more on R&D. The main issue would be whether Pakistan can pick it up.



I think his language skills are bit off. He is confused between assembling and manufacturing himself.

In fighter jets, India manufacture various components like Software( and no, not written in c++ ), LRUs, Avionics etc. Indian products. Manufacturing here means, from raw material to finished product. That includes the Su30 MKI Licensed from Russia and HAL Tejas which is an Indian product. No, don't go into the complete products are not India. I didn't say it.

Is Pakistan doing this in fighter jets? Raw material to complete product?

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## Gessler

#hydra# said:


> 1) then why IAF is not happy with is this exceptional design?



Lol, what? What design? FGFA design hasn't even reached preliminary completion, forget finalization. What you're
seeing is a prototype of the Russian version. I had made a post on other forums a while ago, addressing such articles about the PAK-FA/FGFA -













> 2) by your logic regarding age of design,the new f35 must be better than 22.



In many ways, it certainly is.

i.e. avionics, situational awareness, passive surveillance etc.



> A) Then y other air forces not happy with 35



The JSF is a low/medium-performance strike aircraft being forced to fill the shoes of a high-performance air-superiority plane, in several air forces. Ofcourse some people are not happy - it's being made to do entirely a lot more than what it can.



> B) if f22 is that much irrelevant, y uncle Sam is notbselling to others in same time they ate selling f35



I never said F22 was irrelevant - it's still the best & most performant US fighter out there. Just the airframe. However, the PAK-FA/FGFA will still be better. The problem I highlighted was that it's avionics are dated. The US can upgrade these avionics anytime, and then they'd easily have a plane much better than any F-35 in pretty much everything the JSF does.

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## RPK

#Tejas SP-3 taxiing for first flight on Sept 28 from HAL Airport in Bangalore. It is now painted in IAF colours, but MAY miss Hindon trip.






Here it is! #Tejas SP-3 during 1st flight on Sept 28

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## GuardianRED

RPK said:


> #Tejas SP-3 taxiing for first flight on Sept 28 from HAL Airport in Bangalore. It is now painted in IAF colours, but MAY miss Hindon trip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is! #Tejas SP-3 during 1st flight on Sept 28


The SP3 is the best looking Build so far!

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## Surya 1

ranadd said:


> It is in operation with IAF. Have you read the audit reports from the trillion dollar project called F35?. When you have civilian government with checks and balances that is how it is. Transparency, it is called. When have you heard of such instances from China or Pakistan?
> 
> If you can take a second to appreciate the engineering feat (no, its not due to jingoism.) you will know the first version is beyond a success. Tejas as a fighter succeeded. The engine didn't get 100% results. If we go by Chinese standards, even the engine would have been in operation. No, but India had the retarded idea to go for all at the first go itself.
> 
> My friend, when someone else does something you haven't done or not even trying to do, try to appreciate it.



in low cost and frugal engineering and R & D , nobody can beat India. Our space program, nuclear program and our defense programs are the prime example. We are among the leaders in respective area with a fraction of R & D budget compared to these establish players. LCA tejas is all set to emerge as the premier fighter of the world and as avinash chander had said, if we make other one, it shall be absolute top class. MK1+ with low weight and aerodynamic improvement shall going to be a premier fighter for sure. We shall have a mini MMRCA at a cost of bellow 200 crore in next 4 years. If Mk2 comes, it shall be absolute top class and with AMCA we shall be among top.

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## Ali Zadi

When anything is focused properly it automatically becomes frugal. Even NASA when it was young was very frugal and reached quite high but slowly their services and vision expanded and the frugality went away.


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## Fenrir

Ali Zadi said:


> Even NASA when it was young was very frugal and reached quite high but slowly their services and vision expanded and the frugality went away.



I understand the analogy and respect the spirit - start small, dream big, but work within your budget - but NASA was formed in 1958, put its first satellite into orbit the same year and three years later put man into orbit during the Mercury program... all while running the X-planes as a side venture:











Mercury's total cost was 227 Million USD in 1965 dollars, a whopping 1.6 billion USD in 2010 and involved some 2 million people. Each of the six Mercury missions cost 265 million USD in 2010 dollars.

Each subsequent venture, Gemini, Apollo and on into Orion of today cost an increasingly large amount. It was hardly frugal in its infancy due to a little competition with the Soviets we like to call the "Space Race".

To make the analogy more accurate, you'd want NASA's predecessor NACA - National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.






Sorry for being a stickler, but I'm kind of a space geek.

https://defence.pk/threads/us-space-program-a-thread.380100/page-16#post-8114055

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## ranadd

^^

And what about HAL budget my friend?

See we all miss that one point. Money. How much did we spend for Kaveri before the project was delinked from Tejas to stop giving the jet a bad name? 640 million USD. Yes. You heard it. For the entire time it was alive as part of Tejas. Dont say that Indian engineers are cheap. Yes, they may be cheap. But the research they need to do is not. For example, we still don't have large enough Wind tunnel for testing. And how many labs are there to grow the crystals for making the turbine blades? 

India simply doesn't spend enough money on R&D.

China is going to spend 45Bn USD in the next 20 year to catch up on jet tech alone. Their fighter jets have Russian engines, Russian ejection seat, Russian weaponry but yea.. completely Chinese product. Indian Tejas is the shit for everyone else. People ask it took 30 years to fly, why you are happy about it.


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## Echo_419

Technogaianist said:


> I understand the analogy and respect the spirit, but NASA was formed in 1958, put its first satellite into orbit the same year and three years later put man into orbit during the Mercury program... all while running the X-planes as a side venture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mercury's total cost was 227 Million USD in 1965 dollars, a whopping 1.6 billion USD in 2010 and involved some 2 million people. Each of the six Mercury missions cost 265 million USD.
> 
> Each subsequent venture, Gemini, Apollo and on into Orion of today cost an increasingly large amount. It was hardly frugal in its infancy due to a little competition with the Soviets we like to call the "Space Race".
> 
> To make the analogy more accurate, you'd want NASA's predecessor NACA - National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.
> 
> View attachment 341187
> 
> 
> Sorry for being a stickler, but I'm kind of a space geek.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/us-space-program-a-thread.380100/page-16#post-8114055



Keep up the informative post


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## nang2

ranadd said:


> Russian ejection seat


China has her own ejection seat, designed from the experience learned from both Russian ejection seat and Martin-Backer's.


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## ranadd

nang2 said:


> China has her own ejection seat, designed from the experience _*learned *_from both _*Russian ejection seat and Martin-Backer's*_.



Yup.. Thats what I said as well. No one reinvents the wheel. But if India does, yell bloody murder!!!!

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## My-Analogous

ranadd said:


> What?? Seriously?
> 
> Please add sarcasm with a '\s'.



Your fun time is over. Add some link to prove your statement or act mature like your other countryman otherwise your time in PDF will be very limited time


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## RPK

The LCA Tejas for the first time will demonstrate over the Hindon Airbase, outskirts of New Delhi as part of the 84th Air Force Day. The Tejas will be part of the official ceremony on 8th October 2016. Seen here is the SP-2 of 45 Sqn.

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## #hydra#

RPK said:


> The LCA Tejas for the first time will demonstrate over the Hindon Airbase, outskirts of New Delhi as part of the 84th Air Force Day. The Tejas will be part of the official ceremony on 8th October 2016. Seen here is the SP-2 of 45 Sqn.


Beauty...


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## sathya

DM Parrikar must work harder with Tejas, if he doesn't , no one will care..

There is not Much progress about private player , building production line set up.

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## Agent_47



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## proud_indian

Agent_47 said:


>



this video doesn't seem complete !


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## GORKHALI

They tested multiple rakes.

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## SDS1

nang2 said:


> China has her own ejection seat, designed from the experience learned from both Russian ejection seat and Martin-Backer's.


thats why ejection system is getting failed in JFT?


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## The Eagle

SDS1 said:


> thats why ejection system is getting failed in JFT?



How many ejection failures are reported in detail purely related to JFT, enlighten us except the usual baiting.


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## Surya 1

Yesterday Arup raha said that his prime choice is rafale followed by gripen. He ranked gripen above the F 16 and F18. We are trying to pull something like gripen out of tejas. Hopefully next version of Tejas shall be a match to gripen D and indian air force will love it. Infact, if we can work on 2 issues. i.e aerodynamics and air intake than we can infact can have something better than Grippen as we have have mastered the art of weight reduction. If we have a Tejas with same engine with 600 KG lower weight than Gripen with AESA, EW , we can score over Gripen.

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## mkb95

@PARIKRAMA@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer@Tshering22@Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug@Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx-@Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90@Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp@Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @The Eagle @PaklovesTurkiye @other

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## Techy

*LCA TEJAS Showing High Maneuverability At IAF Day 2016 *
*



*

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## Trying to be honest

Techy said:


> *LCA TEJAS Showing High Maneuverability At IAF Day 2016 *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Just see the smiles on face of IAF personnel during the dispaly. Nothing can be a bigger certificate of its capability. Just hoping we can build it faster.

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## nik22

Techy said:


> *LCA TEJAS Showing High Maneuverability At IAF Day 2016 *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Terrible music

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## eldamar

ranadd said:


> I think his language skills are bit off. He is confused between assembling and manufacturing himself.
> 
> In fighter jets, India manufacture various components like Software( and no, not written in c++ ), LRUs, Avionics etc. Indian products. Manufacturing here means, from raw material to finished product. That includes the Su30 MKI Licensed from Russia and HAL Tejas which is an Indian product. No, don't go into the complete products are not India. I didn't say it.
> 
> Is Pakistan doing this in fighter jets? Raw material to complete product?



glad u understood the difference between 'Make in India' and 'Made in India'



Gessler said:


> Lol, what? What design? FGFA design hasn't even reached preliminary completion, forget finalization. What you're
> seeing is a prototype of the Russian version. I had made a post on other forums a while ago, addressing such articles about the PAK-FA/FGFA -



It's not that Indians do not want to copy planes, it's that they CANT- they do not have the know-how and the various supporting infrastructure, along with technical capabilities to reconstruct a blueprint from scratch by taking a plane apart.


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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> It's not that Indians do not want to copy planes, it's that they CANT- they do not have the know-how and the various supporting infrastructure, along with technical capabilities to reconstruct a blueprint from scratch by taking a plane apart.



That's not true. We do reverse engineer stuff, especially stuff that we license manufacture. We attempt to make some aspects of the design better through reverse engineering, but we never say that aloud.

We don't reverse engineer entire systems because that's pointless and a waste of money.


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## nang2

SDS1 said:


> thats why ejection system is getting failed in JFT?


I encourage you to keep thinking in this way.


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## Aero

@SDS1 @The Eagle @nang2

Please don't go offTopic, keep discussion to Tejas only.

or Move your posts to JF-17 threads if you want to discuss about that or its ejection seats.

@eldarlmari
Start a thread on Reverse Engineering Capability of Countries/India if you want to discuss.

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## The Eagle

Aero said:


> @SDS1 @The Eagle @nang2
> 
> Please don't go offTopic, keep discussion to Tejas only.
> 
> or Move your posts to JF-17 threads if you want to discuss about that or its ejection seats.
> 
> @eldarlmari
> Start a thread on Reverse Engineering Capability of Countries/India if you want to discuss.



Indeed it shouldn't be discussed here but response was to the subject of a member's claim. It was an indirect message for the one to understand the topic in hand rather than dragging irrelevant subjects.


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## Echo_419

nang2 said:


> I encourage you to keep thinking in this way.



You mean like "High IQ" Chinese


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## nang2

Echo_419 said:


> You mean like "High IQ" Chinese


I meant that specific Indian.


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## ranadd

eldarlmari said:


> It's not that Indians do not want to copy planes, it's that they CANT- they do not have the know-how and the various supporting infrastructure, along with technical capabilities to reconstruct a blueprint from scratch by taking a plane apart.



Keep underestimating Indians. We ain't complaining.


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## AMCA

eldarlmari said:


> glad u understood the difference between 'Make in India' and 'Made in India'
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that Indians do not want to copy planes, it's that they CANT- they do not have the know-how and the various supporting infrastructure, along with technical capabilities to reconstruct a blueprint from scratch by taking a plane apart.



Our strength is our foreign policy. The way we have earned respect from both USA and Russia despite their own differences, have never hesitated to offer their cutting edge products to India. It is not that India cannot reverse engineer, rather India has not invested in this method. We license produce with the amount of TOT. We have been making Russian Engines for decades and could have just copied one if its designs dubbed Kaveri, Instead it was designed from scratch. Su 30 MKI is being Manufactured from Raw materials since 2010, yet we have not tampered with its technology. We have benefited immensely by the experience and Technical know-how these products have brought in, inspiring our engineers and scientists to take up indigenous designs. Had we reverse engineered we might have been more successful but would have definitely failed as a friend.

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## indopak

*Tejas with mid-air refuelling probe *

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## GuardianRED

indopak said:


> *Tejas with mid-air refuelling probe *


Screen Grab from??


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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

indopak said:


> *Tejas with mid-air refuelling probe *


Which series of aircraft is this ? SP or separate MK1A prototype ?


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## Water Car Engineer

*
LSP7 with probe for certification test for MK1A, FOC*







full video: http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005

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## GuardianRED

Water Car Engineer said:


> *LSP7 with probe for certification test for MK1A*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005



Someone send a Tweet to Shekkar Gupta saying that its H-A-L no one called it 'HAL' (as in HAL-9000), he writes on defence and doesn't know that OEM?

NOT


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## Water Car Engineer

Major modules of Tejas are outsourced now. L&T will produce the wings, center fuselage to VEM Tech.

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## GuardianRED

Note : Location of the Probe is different from the earlier one

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *
> LSP7 with probe for certification test for MK1A, FOC*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full video: http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005


Work on the MK.1A is fully underway.

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## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> Work on the MK.1A is fully underway.


Did we certify Refueling Probe?


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## mingle

If India looking F 16 or Gripen for Mig 21 then LCA is dead horse .

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## RPK



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## GuardianRED

Full video here!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005

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## The Huskar

Any news regarding FOC??
I am tired of expecting good news from this programme.


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## Ram Mahadev

mingle said:


> If India looking F 16 or Gripen for Mig 21 then LCA is dead horse .



We have room for some 400-450 new single engine fighter more advanced Tejas will be produced for ever. Tejas is our permanent Single engine fighter today tommo and for future. With more upgrades.

Our Plan Single engine forever Tejas 

Twin engine medium multi role - AMCA 

Twin engine Strategic and Heavy air superiority - PAK FA AKA FGFA

In addition we will keep adding more advanced fighters from all around the world to have technical edge. U should be worried what PAF will do? More technology More Money More Maintenance cost etc. U can't even buy 8 F16 . But keep foul mouthing Tejas? Ur Block 3 is our normal Tejas MK1A already ordered.

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## migflug

PKS on Tejas Mk2:

Those who are touting the Tejas Mk.1 are all talking about using the existing airframe of Tejas Mk.1 & trying to tweak it, which is a physical impossibility. *There has to be a Tejas Mk.2 because GE Aero Engines has already started deliveries of the F414INS6 tuirbofans since June 2015*. What will happen to these turbofans if they aren’t used? Be displayed as showpieces in street roundabouts?

Can anyone confirm that we are getting F414 ? @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Gessler . If we are getting F414 , it means eventually we will have mk2 , then why go for another single engine fighter. It makes no sense in having both Tejas mk 2 and Gripen NG/ F16 , as both are more or less of same weight category.It can be comfortable with tejas mk1a + gripen/f16 , but having mk1a +mk2 + gripen/f16 is ridiculous.
Though i think its mostly about MII and developing private aerospace system , it dosent make sense if we are certainly going for mk2. We could have increased mk1a numbers till mk2 come to fruition.
@PARIKRAMA Your thoughts

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## PARIKRAMA

migflug said:


> PKS on Tejas Mk2:
> 
> Those who are touting the Tejas Mk.1 are all talking about using the existing airframe of Tejas Mk.1 & trying to tweak it, which is a physical impossibility. *There has to be a Tejas Mk.2 because GE Aero Engines has already started deliveries of the F414INS6 tuirbofans since June 2015*. What will happen to these turbofans if they aren’t used? Be displayed as showpieces in street roundabouts?
> 
> Can anyone confirm that we are getting F414 ? @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Gessler . If we are getting F414 , it means eventually we will have mk2 , then why go for another single engine fighter. It makes no sense in having both Tejas mk 2 and Gripen NG/ F16 , as both are more or less of same weight category.It can be comfortable with tejas mk1a + gripen/f16 , but having mk1a +mk2 + gripen/f16 is ridiculous.
> Though i think its mostly about MII and developing private aerospace system , it dosent make sense if we are certainly going for mk2. We could have increased mk1a numbers till mk2 come to fruition.
> @PARIKRAMA Your thoughts




As far as i know even Ge 404 deliveries are incomplete .. i remember reading some place initially we ordered just 24 404 engines for prototypes and first couple of LCA birds.. Then plan was to order some 100 more.. in batches ..

We did commit to buy 99 Ge414 back in 2012 but i dont remember any commercial contract for the same.. in fact if i recall the deal was some $820 odd Mn for 99 engines but still i dont recall anywhere hearing or reading it being signed.. Of course it might be hidden as well from public eyes..

Might be PKS thought 414 , it might be 404.. possible oversight..

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## migflug

migflug said:


> PKS on Tejas Mk2:
> 
> Those who are touting the Tejas Mk.1 are all talking about using the existing airframe of Tejas Mk.1 & trying to tweak it, which is a physical impossibility. *There has to be a Tejas Mk.2 because GE Aero Engines has already started deliveries of the F414INS6 tuirbofans since June 2015*. What will happen to these turbofans if they aren’t used? Be displayed as showpieces in street roundabouts?
> 
> Can anyone confirm that we are getting F414 ? @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Gessler . If we are getting F414 , it means eventually we will have mk2 , then why go for another single engine fighter. It makes no sense in having both Tejas mk 2 and Gripen NG/ F16 , as both are more or less of same weight category.It can be comfortable with tejas mk1a + gripen/f16 , but having mk1a +mk2 + gripen/f16 is ridiculous.
> Though i think its mostly about MII and developing private aerospace system , it dosent make sense if we are certainly going for mk2. We could have increased mk1a numbers till mk2 come to fruition.
> @PARIKRAMA Your thoughts





*First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September*
*US refusing to cooperate on Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft engine; defence ministry floating global tender*
Ajai Shukla | *New Delhi July 6, 2015* Last Updated at 00:27 IST


The plan to develop a more powerful, modernised version of the current Tejas fighter is getting a welcome boost*. In September, US engine-maker General Electric (GE) plans to deliver the first F-414INS6 engine (hereafter F-414), which will power the Tejas Mark II.*

The F-414 engine's maximum power output of 98 kiloNewtons (kN) will make the Tejas Mark II faster and nimbler than the current Mark I fighter, which gets just 84 kN of peak power from its GE F-404IN engine. The F-414 will also provide the burst of power needed for the Naval Tejas to take off from an aircraft carrier deck on 200 metres of runway.




In 2010, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, chose GE over Eurojet to supply 99 engines for the Tejas Mark II.* Of these, 16 are being delivered fully-built, so that ADA can build prototypes of the Mark II fighter for ground and flight test programmes.*

*Meanwhile, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will establish a facility to manufacture the remaining 83 engines in Bengaluru. With the Indian Air Force (IAF) and navy likely to order at least 160 Tejas Mark II fighters, the HAL facility could eventually build about 700 engines (assuming a fighter uses 3.5 engines in its service life).*

*ALSO READ: Outgoing Tejas chief says Mark II will fly in three years, enter IAF service in six*

For now,* ADA is welcoming the arrival of the first F-414 engines. This will allow it to start building the first Mark II prototype, which it plans to fly within three years, that is, by 2018-19. ADA says it will hand over the first production fighter to the IAF within six years, that is, by 2021-22.* HAL Bengaluru is building the first 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, which were contracted in 2007. In 2010, the IAF committed itself to another 20 Mark I fighters, which will be contracted when the Tejas gets final operational clearance, probably by March 2016. These 40 fighters will use the F-404 engine.



Not everyone believes the Tejas Mark II, powered by the F-414, is a good idea.

Aerospace experts like Pushpinder Singh of Vayu Magazine say the benefits of the more powerful F-414 would be negated by its additional weight and the re-design of the Tejas that they say will be needed to accommodate the engine.

Experts also argue the Tejas' constricted air intake will prevent the F-414 from sucking in the air it requires, even with extensive redesign. In that case, the engine would not deliver its rated 98 kN thrust.

Rejecting this view, GE and ADA officials say they will accommodate the F-414 without problem or extensive redesign, and that it will perform to its designed potential.

Their claim is supported by the engine data on the GE website (see graphic), which indicates the F-414 is no larger than the F-404. Nor is it significantly heavier, says ADA.

While GE has bagged the deal to supply India the F-414, an even bigger prize could prove elusive - the supply of a more powerful version of the F-414 for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a fifth-generation medium fighter that ADA plans to develop, with the IAF standing ready to buy 200.

As Business Standard reported (June 1, "Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology") the defence ministry has asked the United States to let the Defence Research and Development Organisation work with GE in jointly upgrading the F-414 to a rating of 110 KN of peak power. ADA believes the AMCA needs 220 kN of peak power from its twin engines.

This is welcomed by GE, which had earlier worked for the US Navy on upgrading the F-414 to a 116 kN engine designated F-414 enhanced engine.

With that project now shelved, GE would like to see it revived with Indian partnership, funding and a large assured market.

Yet, Washington is stonewalling the Indian request, even though the two countries had established a "joint working group" to explore cooperation in engine design during President Obama's visit to India in January.

A disappointed Indian defence ministry is now issuing a global tender, inviting aero engine firms to co-develop a suitable engine with the DRDO.

Senior defence ministry sources say that Eurojet, the European consortium whose EJ200 engine lost out to GE's F-414 in the contest to power the Tejas Mark II, has satisfied the DRDO it can uprate the EJ200 to 110 kN.

Snecma, the French company that builds the Rafale's M-88 engine, will also be issued a tender. However the M-88, which currently generates 75 kN of thrust, cannot be uprated beyond 105 kN.

"Fighters are designed around a pre-selected engine. We will issue the tender quickly and select an engine for the AMCA so that the programme does not get delayed. If Washington chooses to deny India engine technology by preventing GE from working with the DRDO, that will have its own implications," a top defence ministry official says.


If the engines F414 have already arrived , then what wil happen to those in light of a new single engine fighter programme. Is any development going on mk2? Or will it go wasted or maybe we can use it on gripen NG?

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## mkb95

credit-tejas-lca
https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/

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## salarsikander

So the thread becomes 17 and tejas dik measuring comtest


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## Allen Iverson

salarsikander said:


> So the thread becomes 17 and tejas dik measuring comtest


It wasn't untill your post..

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## ashok321

*Death blow to the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) programme?




*
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hter-production-line/articleshow/54945552.cms


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## Water Car Engineer

IAF Day






Tejas Trainer At LEH

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## GORKHALI

The LCA Tejas SP-1 during the Air Force Day Celebrations flown by Group Captain Madhav Rangachari performing a steep pull right after the takeoff demonstrated the Aircraft's ability to Climb Rapidly to Desired Altitude

#JaiHind
#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
Disclaimer: Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Reproduce this Image in any manner. Copyright: #ADA

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## rockstarIN

omplimenting the effort put on by everybody back home, here we present an image of Tejas carrying two 1000 lbs MK-11 bombs in TANDEM for the first time for an exclusive test flight to know what happens when one released in presence of the other. 
We take this opportunity to dedicate this image to the armament designers and all associated in designing and realizing a special pylon for this configuration. Days will not be far when there will be six of these heavier stores on-board. This is a step closer.

#JaiHind
#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN

Disclaimer: Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Reproduce this Image in any manner. Copyright: #ADA

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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> omplimenting the effort put on by everybody back home, here we present an image of Tejas carrying two 1000 lbs MK-11 bombs in TANDEM for the first time for an exclusive test flight to know what happens when one released in presence of the other.
> We take this opportunity to dedicate this image to the armament designers and all associated in designing and realizing a special pylon for this configuration. Days will not be far when there will be six of these heavier stores on-board. This is a step closer.
> 
> #JaiHind
> #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
> 
> Disclaimer: Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Reproduce this Image in any manner. Copyright: #ADA



If we have dual rails in next pylon for BVR, 
It will be wonderful..

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## rockstarIN



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## Water Car Engineer

rockstarIN said:


> omplimenting the effort put on by everybody back home, here we present an image of Tejas carrying two 1000 lbs MK-11 bombs in TANDEM for the first time for an exclusive test flight to know what happens when one released in presence of the other.
> We take this opportunity to dedicate this image to the armament designers and all associated in designing and realizing a special pylon for this configuration. Days will not be far when there will be six of these heavier stores on-board. This is a step closer.
> 
> #JaiHind
> #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
> 
> Disclaimer: Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Reproduce this Image in any manner. Copyright: #ADA




Nice.






Tejas with Python 5






Naval Tejas with Levcon Extension

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## Super Commando Dhruva

Water Car Engineer said:


> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas with Python 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks "Soooo cool" Dammmmmmmm...

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## Water Car Engineer

IAF Tejas MK1

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## gowthamraj

@Water Car Engineer image not visible.


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## Water Car Engineer

gowthamraj said:


> @Water Car Engineer image not visible.




I shows up for me. I dont know why not for you.


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## jha

Water Car Engineer said:


> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas with Python 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naval Tejas with Levcon Extension



Is it just me, or, naval Tejas looks cooler than AF one ?

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/791848725496725505

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/791848725496725505


Why did @PARIKRAMA quit PDF ?when will he come Back


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## halupridol

Any news of FOC guys?
Accordng to my source as of now foc in march'17 is very difficult but dpsu has promised(yet again)tht it will be achievd before march'18 n they r still seeking some more waivers on requirmnts 
Can anyone confirm plz
Anothr thing,,contrary to popular belief tht work on mk2 has started,,nothng much has changed.
Mod n Iaf both r on same page abt decision on new orders only aftr foc completion,,,so most probably mk2 is gonna be mothballed for some foreign LWF


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

KH-2012 is seen here carrying out a crosswind landing with asymmetric load..

#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN

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## rockstarIN

\KH-2014 seen here with two 250 Kg HSLD bombs in the MB stations. As the name suggests, the HSLD (High Speed Low Drag) bombs have sleeker frontal surface area thus has different characteristics compared to conventional MK11 heavier bombs. The separation characteristics of these bombs have been favourable and the accuracy parameters too. 

Jai Hind
#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Copy this Photo. Copyright: #ADA

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## Water Car Engineer

rockstarIN said:


> \KH-2014 seen here with two 250 Kg HSLD bombs in the MB stations. As the name suggests, the HSLD (High Speed Low Drag) bombs have sleeker frontal surface area thus has different characteristics compared to conventional MK11 heavier bombs. The separation characteristics of these bombs have been favourable and the accuracy parameters too.
> 
> Jai Hind
> #TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN
> Please share the Post only with the Tags and Write Up. Kindly do not Edit or Copy this Photo. Copyright: #ADA



Never seen these bombs before, any more pics? @members


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## aman_rai

lcafanboy said:


> FOC is delayed to Jun 2017 to Dec 2017, but it will now be for LCA MK1P, which will have weight reduction (600 to 1000kgs), internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance, OBOGS, hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit, Jammers, and standardized production.


Haad ho gaya bhai...


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## Sliver

lcafanboy said:


> FOC is delayed to Jun 2017 to Dec 2017, but it will now be for LCA MK1P, which will have weight reduction (600 to 1000kgs), internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance, OBOGS, hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit, Jammers, and standardized production.


2 years of testing to see which foreign vendor will contract to produce 200 single engined aircraft in India
LCA will be still under "FOC" adding fictitious new add-ons or resolving old problems

internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance - should have been done along with your development of the craft
hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit - if it was not in the initial requirement list, then this should be a separate product
standardized production: again - when they developed the craft, if they have not worked to include standardized production, why did they even build it? why such low confidence on their own machine that they wouldnt build with "standardized production" in mind?

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## ranadd

This constant change of what constitute to be a final configuration that is ready for FOC is ridiculous. This bird should have started its manufacturing in numbers already.

China unveiled a 5th gen jet ready for limited production with no engine. 

But yes, lets wait for the warp engine option as well. MoFo Indian DoD personnel.


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## Stephen Cohen

lcafanboy said:


> FOC is delayed to Jun 2017 to Dec 2017, but it will now be for LCA MK1P, which will have weight reduction (600 to 1000kgs), internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance, OBOGS, hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit, Jammers, and standardized production.



Could you please post the source of this information


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## Water Car Engineer

lcafanboy said:


> FOC is delayed to Jun 2017 to Dec 2017, but it will now be for LCA MK1P, which will have weight reduction (600 to 1000kgs), internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance, OBOGS, hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit, Jammers, and standardized production.




This makes no sense, why did they just add on several more clauses? If this is even remotely true, Parrikar need to drop kick some of these people with his shitty sandals on.


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## RPK

From the archives of Aero India-2015..
Seen here, KH-2018 (LSP-8) in the final phase of a vertical loop..

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## AMCA

lcafanboy said:


> Naval LCA is cancelled. Rafale M coming.
> 
> Now naval LCA is being converted to Air force version LCA MK1p, due to its better aerodynamics. You may remember that naval and trainer LCA are same only difference being additional seat. Now that seat is replaced by additional tank to augment more fuel. The under carriage is being made lighter with lighter landing gear, removal of dead ballast weight of 300 kg from nose, 150 kgs from landing gear, and lighter air frame, OBOGS will remove 100 kgs, lesser LRUs due to fusion of several LRUs into one, will bring LCA dowm weight of LCA to around 5500 to 5800 kgs depending upon how much they are able to shave of weight. This will make LCA a real KICKASS fighter.
> 
> Earlier only ADA was involved in the development of LCA but now due to fear of losing jobs (thanks to MODI & PARIKAR and partly DASSAULT) HAL personnel are as well handling this and if safran completes KAveri engine (to be completed withing 3 years of signing the Rafale deal which will be formally signed in JAN 2017) and uprates it to even 120kn (kaveri engine is capable of 128kn) as promised for Rafale deal offsets then you may have a completely different LCA which is leagues ahead of competition coming out of HAL by 2021.



Complete BS. LCA Navy and Trainer are two different designs altogether. LCA Navy is here to stay and will not be cancelled.


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## aftab_s81

If everything goes well, Tejas will be a real power punch. Let's see when production starts, what's on the plate.


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## halupridol

Dpsu zindabad


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## AMCA

lcafanboy said:


> Naval LCA and Trainer LCA are almost identical one with levcon other without and with 2 seats.



LCA Navy has reinforced undercarriage with lesser hard points, Stronger landing gear,the nose is drooped for better cockpit vision,The total air-frame is far too stronger than that of the air force version and in addition carries LEVCONS . From the software point of view its Control Law is totally different. The Sink rate is 7.1m/s vs 3m/s of the Air Force.

NP2 has over 150 design changes vs the NP1..

Please do some research before spreading rumors.

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## Water Car Engineer

aftab_s81 said:


> If everything goes well, Tejas will be a real power punch. Let's see when production starts, what's on the plate.



Production is on right now.

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## sathya

lcafanboy said:


> Naval LCA is cancelled. Rafale M coming.
> 
> Now naval LCA is being converted to Air force version LCA MK1p, due to its better aerodynamics. You may remember that naval and trainer LCA are same only difference being additional seat. Now that seat is replaced by additional tank to augment more fuel. The under carriage is being made lighter with lighter landing gear, removal of dead ballast weight of 300 kg from nose, 150 kgs from landing gear, and lighter air frame, OBOGS will remove 100 kgs, lesser LRUs due to fusion of several LRUs into one, will bring LCA dowm weight of LCA to around 5500 to 5800 kgs depending upon how much they are able to shave of weight. This will make LCA a real KICKASS fighter.
> 
> Earlier only ADA was involved in the development of LCA but now due to fear of losing jobs (thanks to MODI & PARIKAR and partly DASSAULT) HAL personnel are as well handling this and if safran completes KAveri engine (to be completed withing 3 years of signing the Rafale deal which will be formally signed in JAN 2017) and uprates it to even 120kn (kaveri engine is capable of 128kn) as promised for Rafale deal offsets then you may have a completely different LCA which is leagues ahead of competition coming out of HAL by 2021.




Fanboy story ?
120kn engine ? Safarn develops for India ?

Btw I enjoyed reading..
Still, even with this, goal post is shifted yet again,...



AMCA said:


> LCA Navy has reinforced undercarriage with lesser hard points, Stronger landing gear,the nose is drooped for better cockpit vision,The total air-frame is far too stronger than that of the air force version and in addition carries LEVCONS . From the software point of view its Control Law is totally different. The Sink rate is 7.1m/s vs 3m/s of the Air Force.
> 
> NP2 has over 150 design changes vs the NP1..
> 
> Please do some research before spreading rumors.




Lesser hard points  ?


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## Shabi1

lcafanboy said:


> FOC is delayed to Jun 2017 to Dec 2017, but it will now be for LCA MK1P, which will have weight reduction (600 to 1000kgs), internal relocation and fusion of LRUs for easy maintenance, OBOGS, hopefully AESA (elta 2052) radar, Additional fuel, EW suit, Jammers, and standardized production.



This is pretty risky and a waste of time, why don't they iron out issues with existing jet and start inductions with original specs. Benchmark should have been the aircrafts its intended to replace and their flaws, which LCA can do in its current configuration. Can always introduce upgrades within production variants. 4th gen aircrafts are supposed to be modular with ability of change out parts for future upgrades.

Turning out to be a Bradly. From the movie Pentagon Wars (must watch and hilarious).

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## RPK



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## AMCA

sathya said:


> Fanboy story ?
> 120kn engine ? Safarn develops for India ?
> 
> Btw I enjoyed reading..
> Still, even with this, goal post is shifted yet again,...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesser hard points  ?



Yes. While the LCA Navy has only 7, the Airfroce version has 8(one installed under the air intake on the port side.)


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## Ali Zadi

This is not a joke anymore Tejas will have to defend against the J20 which has a role of deep penetration among other roles speculated. It is expected that the J20 is multi role but given the size and the complexity a deep penetration role is a given. If stealth is enough for the S400 "Long range" it will be upto Tejas MK1A to track and disable.

Yes the 30MKI and Rafale are also in play but they are not meant for point defense in war time. Griphen NG stands a better footing than the F16 for a similar role because of radar and mostly because of wider missile choices. Its a pity that the needed pace is not being carried out with Tejas otherwise it is certainly a better option to the std F16 configuration with respect to Indian conditions.

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## AMCA

Ali Zadi said:


> This is not a joke anymore Tejas will have to defend against the J20 which has a role of deep penetration among other roles speculated. It is expected that the J20 is multi role but given the size and the complexity a deep penetration role is a given. If stealth is enough for the S400 "Long range" it will be upto Tejas MK1A to track and disable.
> 
> Yes the 30MKI and Rafale are also in play but they are not meant for point defense in war time. Griphen NG stands a better footing than the F16 for a similar role because of radar and mostly because of wider missile choices. Its a pity that the needed pace is not being carried out with Tejas otherwise it is certainly a better option to the std F16 configuration with respect to Indian conditions.



Why Tejas when there are hundreds of SU-30's to defend the skies against heavy enemy air aggression. If J-20's were to be ever used, I dont think SU-30's would be pressed into SEAD/DEAD missions.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Ali Zadi said:


> This is not a joke anymore Tejas will have to defend against the J20 which has a role of deep penetration among other roles speculated. It is expected that the J20 is multi role but given the size and the complexity a deep penetration role is a given. If stealth is enough for the S400 "Long range" it will be upto Tejas MK1A to track and disable.
> 
> Yes the 30MKI and Rafale are also in play but they are not meant for point defense in war time. Griphen NG stands a better footing than the F16 for a similar role because of radar and mostly because of wider missile choices. Its a pity that the needed pace is not being carried out with Tejas otherwise it is certainly a better option to the std F16 configuration with respect to Indian conditions.



are you a kid? do you know how to scare kids? tell them stories of fiery dragons...J20 is a Dragon....dont be fooled by the facade/tamasha on the display.

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## nang2

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/manhohar-parrikar-dac-army-aircraft-helicopters-drones/1/803569.html

credibility of this news? what about the price tag of LCA quoted?


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## Hindustani78

Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which is set to meet tomorrow, Sources said other issues on the agenda will be a formal nod to *IAF's programme to acquire 83 new version of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, a number which has been publicly stated by the Defence Ministry earlier.*


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

nang2 said:


> http://m.indiatoday.in/story/manhohar-parrikar-dac-army-aircraft-helicopters-drones/1/803569.html
> 
> credibility of this news? what about the price tag of LCA quoted?



Around 35 million $-


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## nang2

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Around 35 million $-


where did you get this number? that news mentioned a project cost as 48000 crore, which confuses me, since it translates to $90+ million.


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

nang2 said:


> where did you get this number? that news mentioned a project cost as 48000 crore, which confuses me, since it translates to $90+ million.



Mk1A is not developed yet- It will feature AESA radar, Integrated EW system along with new weapons, possibly the cockpit area will also include larger HUD and touch screens like in 5th gen planes- Development phase is being kept secret- So we know little- The amount quoted might include the development costs which will have foreign assistance-

The price of Mk1 is 30 million $ with more time consuming work- Mk1A will have proper production line means the cost will drop but adding advanced radar and other accessories It might go up to 35 million $ or 40 million $ at most-


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## nang2

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Mk1A is not developed yet- It will feature AESA radar, Integrated EW system along with new weapons, possibly the cockpit area will also include larger HUD and touch screens like in 5th gen planes- Development phase is being kept secret- So we know little- The amount quoted might include the development costs which will have foreign assistance-
> 
> The price of Mk1 is 30 million $ with more time consuming work- Mk1A will have proper production line means the cost will drop but adding advanced radar and other accessories It might go up to 35 million $ or 40 million $ at most-


wait, an order of 83 fighter jets that have not been developed?


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

nang2 said:


> wait, an order of 83 fighter jets that have not been developed?



Yes you can say that- It is an assurance to the manufacturer to go ahead and develop the plane- customer will buy 83 units- Its actually customization of Mk1 not really a new development-


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## nang2

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Yes you can say that- It is an assurance to the manufacturer to go ahead and develop the plane- customer will buy 83 units- Its actually customization of Mk1 not really a new development-


make sense. it is more like an initial investment plus order intention (dangling carrots) than a batch order.


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

nang2 said:


> make sense. it is more like an initial investment plus order intention (dangling carrots) than a batch order.



Here local industry is sometimes fed up with this foreign customer attitude of forces- They behave like they are dealing with a foreign supplier at times due to vested interests of some broker they behave even roughly- When they should be assisting local producers for what they want final product to be-

So the local producer wants some assurances before putting their money into It- This order is actually arm twisting done by Defense Minister and forcing them to buy local- Or they were happy with 126 Rafale- Perhaps he told them more rafale will only come If you people buy local-

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Tejas carrying out a roll during #AeroIndia 2015
Jai Hind
#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN








"Expanding the operational boundaries"

From the archives of Detachment 2014 ..

KH -2014, seen here, is flying with a 725 centreline drop tank. The integration, the jettison characteristics and the general handling with this drop tank were tested in 2014 and will certainly enhance the flying range with two wing mounted drop tanks.

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## eldamar

nang2 said:


> make sense. it is more like an initial investment plus order intention (dangling carrots) than a batch order.



This kinda practice is commonplace- espeically when it's done to support domestic projects


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## Bhoot Pishach

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/795609727547772928
 

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @dadeechi

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## Bhoot Pishach

Bhoot Pishach said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/795609727547772928
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @dadeechi



20 IOC + 20 FOC + 83 MK1A = 123 in total.

Now it all depends on ADA & HAL how quickly get FOC and MK1A & MK2 for Navy ready.

If MK2 comes good for Navy IAF cannot resist from getting it.

ADA & HAL will have to now buckle-up and deliver, ball is now in their court.

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## Robinhood Pandey

Bhoot Pishach said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/795609727547772928
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @dadeechi



Finally

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## Water Car Engineer



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## abc123xyx

is it possible for LCA tejas to defeat su30 in combat ??


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## randomradio

O.P.D said:


> is it possible for LCA tejas to defeat su30 in combat ??



Yes, if the MKI pilot makes a mistake.

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## abc123xyx

randomradio said:


> Yes, if the MKI pilot makes a mistake.


ok , so people won't belive it , even it actually happens..
thanks..


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Presenting an image of KH-2018 (LSP-08) with 2x1200 Ltr DT, 2xCBLS, LDP and 2xCCMs. There is a tiny practice bomb (3 Kg) on the right CBLS. These practice bombs are normally used to prove the attack modes before the real or actual weapons are fired.







KH-2015 (LSP-5) taking off with a heavier configuration..

#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #IADN

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## #hydra#

O.P.D said:


> is it possible for LCA tejas to defeat su30 in combat ??


Yeas,if mki in unarmed and radar is in switch off condition.


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## nang2

#hydra# said:


> Yeas,if mki in unarmed and radar is in switch off condition.


Better yet, mki is unfueled.


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## WarFariX

NO FANBOYS AND PATRIOTS PLZ

could someone educate me with the airframe life in hours of LCA ?


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## ranadd

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> NO FANBOYS AND PATRIOTS PLZ
> 
> could someone educate me with the airframe life in hours of LCA ?



Dont think anyone can tell you for now. Mig 21's are flying across the world. It will depend up on the budget and training of the air force to keep it on sky. LRU's will be replaced at their EOL and the frame may fly forever.


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## WarFariX

ranadd said:


> Dont think anyone can tell you for now. Mig 21's are flying across the world. It will depend up on the budget and training of the air force to keep it on sky. LRU's will be replaced at their EOL and the frame may fly forever.


Pardon me but could you explain in an easy way as i am not good with abreviations. thnx


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## ranadd

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Pardon me but could you explain in an easy way as i am not good with abreviations. thnx



Sorry.

LRU or Line-Replaceable Unit. EOL or End of Life.

Everyone knock on India for Tejas not achieving FOC(Final Operational Clearance) and not being 100% indigenous. Warranted and correct.

FOC not being achieved should not be taken too seriously. As the jet just got commissioned. The SOP's will get formed and soon it will reach FOC. SOP is the Standard Operating Procedure. How to use the jet, how to replace parts, how to fight, how to train etc etc. Even F35 is in IOC or something.F35 coming from an Industrial veteran. Then Imagine where a newly industrialized third world country will be. But I digress.

In LCA numbers are thrown around from 60% to 70% Indian components. From the composite airframe to avionics. to small nuts and bolts to pipes. from relay units to fuel pumps. They all are LRU's. complete Indian. Does it warrant chest thumping? Yes. Why? During a conflict, import maal LRU's can and will be not sold to you. If it is Indian, we can produce them. 

Now coming to jet life. The FOC will take minimum 2018. No jet can be FOC'ed in 1 year. And LRU's are completely Indian. You find wear and tear, you replace them. This is an Industry standard. The more local the product, the more easier it will get. Take any commercial jet airliner. The jet is almost new at any given time. The C1, C2, C3 checks keep them new. All the parts NEED to be replaced.

Now the push for Indian Tejas makes sense.

Another example, Indias first fighter jet, the HAL Marut. Was EOL'ed early. Why? Engine was not Indian. Tejas also have the same Achilles heel. If the Sarfan JV doesnt bring the K9 and K10 products online. Kiss Tejas goodbye in 25 years.


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## sudhir007



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## Surya 1

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> NO FANBOYS AND PATRIOTS PLZ
> 
> could someone educate me with the airframe life in hours of LCA ?



Better than the other fighters bar US and European. May in the range of 3000 to 6000 hours though not very sure.



nang2 said:


> http://m.indiatoday.in/story/manhohar-parrikar-dac-army-aircraft-helicopters-drones/1/803569.html
> 
> credibility of this news? what about the price tag of LCA quoted?



160 Crore for MK1 and 200 crore for Mk2.


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## ultron

1 SP. 1 plane does not a squadron make.


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## Bad Guy

18-November-2016
The government proposes to export the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas to other countries. In this connection preliminary discussions have been held with a few friendly countries. Presently, HAL has established facilities for manufacturing and delivery of 8 LCA per annum. There is a plan to ramp up the production rate from 8 to 16 Aircraft per annum progressively by 2019-20. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri MI Shanavas in Lok Sabha today.

Export of LCA Tejas


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
18-November, 2016 18:58 IST
*Light Combat Aircraft Tejas *

Several parts of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is of foreign origin. LCA Tejas is an indigenously designed and developed Aircraft. *Out of total 344 LRUs (Line Replaceable Units) involved in the system level of LCA, a total of 210 LRUs have been produced indigenously and balance 134 LRUs are being imported from foreign companies. Indigenous content of the LCA Tejas Aircraft is 59.7% by value and 75.5% by numbers. *

To reduce dependence on foreign companies, out of the *134 imported LRUs, the indigenisation of 42 units is under progress.* Further efforts are being made by way of indigenization with the objective to reduce the import content progressively. Consolidation of technical specification of imported units have been carried out and they are being projected for indigenisation by private companies, DRDO labs and HAL divisions. 

In a few cases, HAL has entered into repair agreements for a number of items to locally repair the items and for balance, they are in the process of entering into Long Term Repair and Maintenance Agreement (LTRMA). 

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Rakesh Singh in Lok Sabha today.

****************

Ministry of Defence
18-November, 2016 18:55 IST
*Export of LCA Tejas *

The government proposes to export the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas to other countries. In this connection preliminary discussions have been held with a few friendly countries. 

Presently, HAL has established facilities for manufacturing and delivery of 8 LCA per annum. 

There is a plan to ramp up the production rate from 8 to 16 Aircraft per annum progressively by 2019-20. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri MI Shanavas in Lok Sabha today.

******************

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## ranadd

* Indigenous content of the LCA Tejas Aircraft is 59.7% by value and 75.5% by numbers*

Still not good enough for folks here.

Anyways, they wont have time to read this today. Party going on with new Pakistani Navy thriller movie.

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## Sliver

ranadd said:


> Sorry.
> 
> *Kiss Tejas goodbye* in 25 years.



took the cake for me "kiss your tejAss goodbye if Engine is not made in India"

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## 4GTejasBVR

ranadd said:


> * Indigenous content of the LCA Tejas Aircraft is 59.7% by value and 75.5% by numbers*
> 
> Still not good enough for folks here.
> 
> Anyways, they wont have time to read this today. Party going on with new Pakistani Navy thriller movie.



Another 45 imported components under process for indigenous


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## muhammadali233

sudhir007 said:


>


is the navy's tejas the carrier based variant?


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## Lord Of Gondor

muhammadali233 said:


> is the navy's tejas the carrier based variant?


It is called the N-LCA (Navy uses the project names unlike the IAF) and yes, this is the Technology Demonstrator for the operational carrier borne fighter.


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## MULUBJA

Oscar said:


> Cost of flying a Tejas on a mission per hour along with life cycle costs.


 
Life cycle cost= current cost already spent+ present value of all future cost which includes operation cost and maintenence cost- present value salvage cost.


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## muhammadali233

Lord Of Gondor said:


> It is called the N-LCA (Navy uses the project names unlike the IAF) and yes, this is the Technology Demonstrator for the operational carrier borne fighter.


Has it been on an actual carrier? cause the pic posted looks like ground testing.


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## TheDarkKnight

ranadd said:


> * Indigenous content of the LCA Tejas Aircraft is 59.7% by value and 75.5% by numbers*
> 
> Still not good enough for folks here.
> 
> Anyways, they wont have time to read this today. Party going on with new Pakistani Navy thriller movie.



For that it needs to be good enough for IAF first.

Regards


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## MULUBJA

muhammadali233 said:


> Has it been on an actual carrier? cause the pic posted looks like ground testing.


 
It is a replica of creer on ground and planes are tested here prior to test from aircraft career. When we tested tejas, our scientist got a plesent surprise. They witnessed 10+ climb rate against anticipated 5.5. Plane struck 22* AOA in its first flight.


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## Lord Of Gondor

muhammadali233 said:


> Has it been on an actual carrier? cause the pic posted looks like ground testing.


Not yet, the rumour is that N-LCA will be tested from on board the INS Vikramaditya "soon".
The shore based tests have validated advanced capabilities such as Hands off take off(Automated Take off).


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## mirage

the_unreachable said:


> For that it needs to be good enough for IAF first.
> 
> Regards


troll


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## Bad Guy

> *DRDO DG (Aero) C P Ramanarayanan said LCA with Kaveri engine might fly in 2018. He said DRDO is already in consultation with Snecma. Already Rs 2,105 crore has been spent on the project. Another Rs 600 crore is likely to be needed for the testing phase.*


http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...r-tapas-drdo-indian-air-force-tejas-1.1519345


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## The_Sidewinder

* LCA Tejas As Capable As Rafale Jet: Defence Minister *

The indigenously manufactured light combat aircraft 'Tejas', which was inducted into the Indian Air Force earlier this year, is as good as the French-made Rafale fighter jet and comparable with other top LCAs across the world, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.
"This is a plane which is completely indigenously manufactured and can compete with any other fighter plane in the world. It is as capable as the Rafale. Only this is a light combat aircraft (LCA)," Mr Parrikar said.
"Only a 3.5 ton missile can be carried on it, Rafale on the other hand can carry a nine-ton (missile). This plane can fly at the rate of 450 km, Rafale can run 900 km because it has twin engines," he added.
The Defence Minister also said that the Tejas, which was stalled for 33 years, was expedited because of his explicit directions to those in-charge of the project.
"I told them that all shortcomings should be fulfilled and the plane should be ready in a year," Mr Parrikar said, adding that some days ago an order had been placed for 83 more planes.

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=39302


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## Hindustani78

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...10-unmanned-aircraft/articleshow/55527387.cms
By PTI | Updated: Nov 20, 2016, 07.15 PM IST 

DRDO Director S Christopher told reporters here. 

On updates on indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas which is now inducted into armed forces, *he said DRDO desires to take the total orders to 123 after meeting the placement of an additional 83 aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). *

The 83 aircraft will see improvements made in avionics and weaponry capability and this include the next version of LCA Mk2. 

*While the first 20 LCAs for IAF will go as per the initial operational configuration*, *all efforts are being made to incorporate other changes mandated for the final operational clearance for the second 20 aircraft. *

DRDO is in talks with private firm Snecma, which is ready to help Kaveri programme revive under the offset clause, company Director General (Aero), C P Ramnarayanan said, adding funds to the extent of Rs 2,105 crore has already been spent on this aero engine programme but with little success. 

The latest plan to revive it with Snecma's help will see another Rs 500 crore or more being spent.


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## sudhir007

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/mobi...r-tapas-drdo-indian-air-force-tejas-1.1519345

On a specific query on the Final Operational Clearance for Tejas, Aeronautical Development Agency head Cmde C D Balaji (Retd) said the process will be completed next year.

“We hope that Tejas would get the FOC by mid of 2017. 
*The BVR Derby missile will be fired again next month. *
*The gun integration work is completed. *
*The air-to-air refuel ling probe too will be tested next year,” Balaji said.*

DRDO DG (Aero) C P Ramanarayanan said LCA with Kaveri engine might fly in 2018. He said DRDO is already in consultation with Snecma. Already Rs 2,105 crore has been spent on the project. Another Rs 600 crore is likely to be needed for the testing phase.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #ADA#IADN

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

KH-2017 (LSP-7) with a derby in the MB station.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

PYTHON!!!!
#TejasOfficialArchive #Tejas_LCA #NFTC #ADA#IADN

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
25-November, 2016 16:47 IST
Projects of DRDO

Major Mission Mode (MM) projects of Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) 

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) :  Phase-II

*Probable Date of Completion*

*Original - Dec 2008*

*Current - Dec 2015 (Under revision)*


*Reasons for Delay

o Technological challenges/ Embargoes

o Flight test program restrictions


***************************

Naval Light Combat Aircraft 

(LCA Navy : Phase-I)

Probable Date of Completion

Original - Mar 2010

Current - Dec 2014 (Under revision)


Reasons for Delay

o Due to co-dependence of basic infrastructure in Air Force and Naval versions

o Un-anticipated complexities faced in structural design



*


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
02-December, 2016 14:31 IST
*Deficiency in Critical Aerospace Technology *

*Kaveri engine development was an indigenous effort of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for mastering one of the most complex technologies.*  Altitude Testing and Flying Test Bed trials have been completed which are major milestones in any gas turbine engine development. The other development problems are addressed to make the engine flight worthy through indigenous as well with assistance from abroad Engine Houses. 

All efforts have been made by Ministry of Defence (MoD), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Defence public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) & Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to achieve self-reliance in critical technologies. The self-reliance has to spread across design, materials, manufacturing, testing and certification aspects of aero-engine and considerable progress has been made towards the same through the Kaveri engine development programme. 

The following DRDO laboratories are fully dedicated towards aeronautical research. 

• Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) – Morphing Aircraft Technologies. 

• Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – Aircraft Design & Development. 

• Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) – Gas Turbine Aero Engines. 

• Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL) – Hypersonic Propulsion. 

• Advanced System Laboratory (ASL) – Solid Propellant Combustion Modelling. 

• Centre for Airborne System (CABS) – Design & Development of Airborne Surveillance System. 

A dedicated programme on “Gas Turbine Enabling Technology (GATET) has also been sanctioned by DRDO at a cost of Rs. 78 Crore to facilitate academia and research institutions to carry out R&D in aerospace sector. 

DRDO has made all efforts to augment aerospace technology capability of the country with dedicated research facilities at Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs), located at Mumbai and Chennai by creating ‘Centre of Propulsion Technology (COPT)’; and also at Indian Institute of Science (IISc) through ‘National Centre for Combustion Research & Development’ (NCCRD). Though the manufacturing is not the mandate of DRDO, however, research pertaining to various areas of manufacturing technology such as machining, metal forming, metal joining, etc. are being pursued in recent times through academia and R&D establishments and these are progressing well. Moreover, DRDO has involved academia and private industries right from the inception of project. 

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Rahul Shewale and others in Lok Sabha today.


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## Hindustani78

HAL is celebrating Platinum Jubilee on completion of 75 years of existence in 2015. Coinciding with the Platinum
Jubilee Celebration, the major achievements in 2015-16 include core engine run of 25 KN turbofan engine(HTFE-25), Design and Development initiation of 1200 KW Turbo shaft engine, Inauguration of structural repair shop for Su-30 MKI ROH, Renovated heritage centres across HAL, New campus of HAL Management Academy and 2nd line of ALH production at TAD, Kanpur.


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## khanasifm

??????
*Indian Navy rejects naval version of Tejas LCA, seeks alternative*

http://www.janes.com/article/65993/indian-navy-rejects-naval-version-of-tejas-lca-seeks-alternative


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## anniyan

khanasifm said:


> ??????
> *Indian Navy rejects naval version of Tejas LCA, seeks alternative*
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/65993/indian-navy-rejects-naval-version-of-tejas-lca-seeks-alternative




LSA(Light Stealth Aircraft) is Coming.....

It seems IN gave green signal for development of LSA-IN 

LSA-IN will be a private project.


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## SDS1

anniyan said:


> LSA(Light Stealth Aircraft) is Coming.....
> 
> It seems IN gave green signal for development of LSA-IN
> 
> LSA-IN will be a private project.


yeah kaha bala hai ab?


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## rockstarIN

*‘Near-hit’ Astra test successful*
Express News Service
Indian Air Force (IAF) on Monday test fired beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile Astra against an actual target in full operational configuration for the first time over Bay of Bengal paving way for its early induction in the armed forces.
Defence sources said two rounds of the missile from Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft were targeting pilot-less target aircraft (PTA) Banshee. The mission was termed ‘successful’ considering the missed-distance calculation, though the missile failed to achieve a direct hit.

‘’The missiles were fired both at high and medium altitude. They passed very close to the target and it can be termed near-hit. The mission was conducted in a war-like scenario and the missile was fired on actual targets. Data collected during the tests are being examined,’’ the sources said.
DRDO officials, however, claimed that the mission was excellent. The tests were conducted to demonstrate the aerodynamic characteristics of the missile. It has demonstrated the repeatability, robustness and endurance capability of Astra weapon system, said a senior official. 

Indigenously designed and developed by DRDO, Astra possesses high Single Shot Kill Probability (SSKP), making it highly reliable. It is an all-aspect, all-weather missile with active radar terminal guidance, excellent electronic counter-counter measure (ECCM) features, smokeless propulsion and process improved effectiveness in multi-target scenario.
Sources informed that this trial will be followed by two more tests in coming days*. Apart from Sukhoi-30 MKI, scientists have started integrating the weapon with homegrown ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).*

Astra is designed for an 80-km range in head-on mode and 20 km-range in tail-chase mode. The 3.8 metre long missile, which has launch weight of about 154 kg, uses solid-fuel propellant and a 15 kg high-explosive warhead activated by a proximity fuse.
Fitted with a terminal active radar-seeker and an updated mid-course internal guidance system, the missile can locate and track targets. It is difficult to track this missile as its on-board electronic counter-measures jam signals from the enemy radars.
As an anti-aircraft missile, it can be fired after receiving a signal from the far away target through its on-board manoeuvres based on radio frequency.


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## sudhir007

http://hal-india.com/TodaysTenderDetails.aspx?Mkey=63&lKey=&Ckey=MTAzNjQ=&Divkey=MTY=


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## RPK

SP3


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## Storm Force

What is the production schedule for first forty fighters ie Mark one.

I heard it was as follows 

4 in 2016 
6 in 2017
8 in 2018
12 in 2019
12 in 2020

Imo India lack of manufacturing and induction capability is a serious failure of the lca programme

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## indiatester

I saw it flying day before yesterday. Though the mobile video is not clear, I will try to post it later.

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## X_Killer

Lifespan of any Aircraft is depends on its survivability and further upgrades. 
It can serve IAF for not less than 25-30years


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## duhastmish

If india can give project for manufacturing to private agencies result will be far better in quality and quantity we recieve.


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## X_Killer

Storm Force said:


> What is the production schedule for first forty fighters ie Mark one.
> 
> I heard it was as follows
> 
> 4 in 2016
> 6 in 2017
> 8 in 2018
> 12 in 2019
> 12 in 2020
> 
> Imo India lack of manufacturing and induction capability is a serious failure of the lca programme



There is no lack of Capability in production as you can see HAL in production of su-30, hawk AJT, Dornier 228 etc.

They just slow down because there are bit changes are continuously undergoing.



duhastmish said:


> If india can give project for manufacturing to private agencies result will be far better in quality and quantity we recieve.



We may look this configuration in near future but right now I can say , as this Aircraft gone through the structural changes continuously. 
Until it gets IOC , it will not gone towards full scale production.
By may,2017 the aerial refuelling test will complete IOC test procedure and get IOC there after will lead to a dedicated production facility


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## ayesha.a

Shabi1 said:


> This is pretty risky and a waste of time, why don't they iron out issues with existing jet and start inductions with original specs. Benchmark should have been the aircrafts its intended to replace and their flaws, which LCA can do in its current configuration. Can always introduce upgrades within production variants. 4th gen aircrafts are supposed to be modular with ability of change out parts for future upgrades.
> 
> Turning out to be a Bradly. From the movie Pentagon Wars (must watch and hilarious).



Very true.


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## nomi007

tejas may be hit by the f-16in or saab fighter

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## Hindustani78

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...ion-in-2016/story-GolAhHjbEzpGmbIv4VPfzK.html

The IAF also inducted two indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and hopes to add on six squadrons (120 aircraft) of the Tejas by 2022.

The government is reportedly looking to buy up to an additional 200 single-engined fighter aircraft (10 to 11 squadrons) of foreign origin to be produced in India. The 200 foreign fighter aircraft to be built in India are unlikely to be ready by then, since new factories will have to be built after a deal–not an immediate prospect–is signed.


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## X_Killer

nomi007 said:


> tejas may be hit by the f-16in or saab fighter


THERE WILL BE TWO DEDICATED PRODUCTION LINES TO BE INSTALLED. 1 FOR TEJAS AND OTHER FOR DIFFERENT MANUFACTURER.
BOTH PROGRAMS WILL RUN IN 



PARALLEL



Hindustani78 said:


> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...ion-in-2016/story-GolAhHjbEzpGmbIv4VPfzK.html
> 
> The IAF also inducted two indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and hopes to add on six squadrons (120 aircraft) of the Tejas by 2022.
> 
> The government is reportedly looking to buy up to an additional 200 single-engined fighter aircraft (10 to 11 squadrons) of foreign origin to be produced in India. The 200 foreign fighter aircraft to be built in India are unlikely to be ready by then, since new factories will have to be built after a deal–not an immediate prospect–is signed.


SP3 JOINED IAF MORE ARE IN PIPELINE.
TOTAL 123 are ordered
For more information, please refer to the videos


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## eldamar

*Navy rejects Tejas, says 'overweight' fighter does not meet its requirements*
TNN | Updated: Dec 2, 2016, 10.37 PM IST

NEW DELHI: The Navy has rejected the naval version of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft , holding that the "overweight" fighter cannot optimally operate from aircraft carriers, and is now looking to induct an alternative fighter from abroad in the next five to six years.

"We will continue to support Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency(ADA) but the naval LCA in its present form unfortunately does not meet our qualitative requirements for carrier capability," said Admiral Sunil Lanba on Friday.

The single-engine Tejas, which is "too heavy", does not meet the "thrust-to-weight requirement to take off with a full fuel and arms load" from an aircraft carrier's deck. At present, the Navy has inducted over 30 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters acquired from Russia for $2 billion.


Both the MiG-29Ks and the naval Tejas were supposed to operate from the 44,400-tonne carrier INS Vikramaditya as well as the under-construction 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant, which will be ready by 2019-2020.

While the IAF is going to get at least 120 Tejas, under the LCA project which was cleared way back in 1983, while the Navy was supposed to get around 50 of the indigenous fighters. In August this year, IAF finally inducted the first two Tejas fighters in the 45 "Flying Daggers" Squadron+ , which will be fully constituted with 20 jets only by 2018.




IAF had earlier ordered 40 Tejas jets, with the defence ministry in November giving the initial approval for procurement of another 83 Tejas Mark-1A fighters from HAL for Rs 50,025 crore. The Mark-1A version, which is the one IAF really wants, will be ready only by 2020 or so. It will have an AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar and advanced electronic warfare (EW) suite, as also be capable of mid-air refuelling and firing advanced BVR (beyond visual range) missiles.

"In addition to MiG-29Ks, we now need an alternative aircraft to operate from these two carriers. If you look around the world, there are not too many options available and we need this carrier-capable aircraft sooner than later. So, I am looking at next five to six years," said Admiral Lanba.


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## Logicaldude

Looks like this guy was off duty when the news came out.

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## Ram Mahadev

Ca


Logicaldude said:


> Looks like this guy was off duty when the news came out.


me back from Christmas vacation


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## RPK

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1264054460355666

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## khanasifm

????

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...for-its-light-combat-aircraft-mark-1a-program


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## Mujraparty

*Tejas inches closer to FOC; crucial trials coming up*

Bengaluru: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme is heading towards the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) phase scheduled to be achieved by June this year. According to sources involved with the project, *Derby missile will be fired in a guided mode during the first quarter of the year,* clearing a key FOC parameter.

*“In the air-to-air role, we have already fired the R-73 and it is the turn of Derby in guided mode now. In the air-to-ground phase, different types of bombs have already been dropped and tested. *There are some software updates needed to fine-tune the accuracy of these missions,” an official told Mathrubhumi on Wednesday.

Interestingly, it was on January 4, 2001 LCA had its first flight with Wg Cdr Rajiv Kothiyal piloting the Technology Demonstrator-1. In the last 16 years, different platforms from the test flightline have completed around 3300 flights.

“If you add up the Squadron flights, the numbers will be more,” says the official. The Indian Air Force (IAF) now operates three Tejas fighters from Bengaluru.

*No major hiccups in the programme*

The official said that there are no major hiccups with programmes and the FOC deadlines will now be met.

“Software upgradation might happen even after FOC. *We have already integrated the air-to-air-refuelling-probe on LSP-8 and it will soon undertake trials.* Flight envelope checks are being done to see any variations in the aerodynamics performance,” says the official.

He said the engineers wanted to ensure that there is absolutely no influence on the air data parameters, post integration of the refuelling probe.

“First dry runs will be executed followed by wet fuel transfer. It is a complex mission,” adds the official.

*The Russian gun (Gsh-23) has already been integrated on LSP-7 for the ground butt firing trials at Nasik. This will be followed by flight trials in the second quarter of the year.*

*The envelope expansion (8G) has already been achieved at the Bahrain International Air Show last year. The Angle of Attack (AoA) of 26 degrees has also been achieved, with the actual requirement being 24 degrees.*

*Tejas flypast at R-Day?*

*A fly-past by three-Tejas formation is likely this time during the R-Day Parade in Delhi.*

According to sources, *the IAF is mulling over the idea of moving away from convention of not flying single-engine fighters during R-Day Parade over Rajpath.*

“Single-engine fighters did fly over Rajpath during R-Day parade many decades ago, including the Sea Harriers. This time there’s a thought process to fly the Tejas. *A total of five Tejas platforms are being readied, including two from the flight test line as a stand-by. A final confirmation has to come from Air HQ,” says an official with DRDO.*

During the upcoming 11th Aero India from February 14 in Bengaluru, Tejas will make its debut in Squadron colours. *HAL is making all efforts to add one more fighter (SP-4) to the Squadron at the earliest.*

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...ming-up-final-operational-clearance-1.1629819

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## Abingdonboy



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## Ram Mahadev

Abingdonboy said:


>


Looks like Pakistan's nightmare Mirages 2000 . delta wing definitely gives Tejas many advantages over regular airframe in its class and size. But very poor production ratr


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## Abingdonboy

Ram Mahadev said:


> . But very poor production ratr


Not really, after SP-3 HAL have said they will deliver another 3 SPs by March-end which means they are producing 1 LCA/month- considering production commenced just a year ago they are performing at an impressive rate. With the MK.1A orders (83 units so far) they will move to 16/year at least, if not 24.

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## Ram Mahadev

Abingdonboy said:


> Not really, after SP-3 HAL have said they will deliver another 3 SPs by March-end which means they are producing 1 LCA/month- considering production commenced just a year ago they are performing at an impressive rate. With the MK.1A orders (83 units so far) they will move to 16/year at least, if not 24.



Are you telling by end of December we will have 12 new Tejas inducted? If it's 1 per month? Then also don't you think it should be doubled or at least 18-24 needed per year before 2020 ? Dude we will be retiring bunch of MiGs by 2020 . And inducted 1 Sukois and 1 rafale squadron.


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## Abingdonboy

Ram Mahadev said:


> Are you telling by end of December we will have 12 new Tejas inducted? If it's 1 per month? Then also don't you think it should be doubled or at least 18-24 needed per year before 2020 ? Dude we will be retiring bunch of MiGs by 2020 . And inducted 1 Sukois and 1 rafale squadron.


This is just the production rate for the Mk.1, once the MK.1A is in prodcution it will be ramped up to 16/year, possibly 24/year if HAL is able to rope in a private player to set up 1 production line of their own (as HAL has said is their intention).

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## Super Commando Dhruva

I hope this would help. 

http://idrw.org/is-parrikar-planning-private-production-line-for-lca-tejas-mk2/

Buzz around media circle is that MK1A and MK2 might enter production post-2020 and Naval MK2 too will emerge by 2020 but HAL will be tasked to produce 16 MK1A per year and another production line may be tasked to produce 8-12 MK2 per year from a new joint venture.

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/826420860550467586

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/826421620369661952The news just keeps getting better.
Congratulations to all the people involved!

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## Water Car Engineer



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## rockstarIN

Abingdonboy said:


> Not really, after SP-3 HAL have said they will deliver another 3 SPs by March-end which means they are producing 1 LCA/month- considering production commenced just a year ago they are performing at an impressive rate. With the MK.1A orders (83 units so far) they will move to 16/year at least, if not 24.


SP 4 will fly soon. Do you think SP-5 & 6 will be delivered by 31st March?

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## Sloth 22

rockstarIN said:


> SP 4 will fly soon. Do you think SP-5 & 6 will be delivered by 31st March?



HAL had 8 LCA a year capacity right now. But according to Matrubhumi, HAL has converted a nearby Koran Hanger to LCA assembly facility which will build 3 LCA a year. 

That means 8+3=11 LCA. 

When the second line of 8 LCA initially and 16 later gets started , that would mean 27 LCA a year ,but it would happen when MK1A enters SP. 

By end of March SP5 will be flying for sure. 

SP6 should come by end of April.

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## Abingdonboy

rockstarIN said:


> SP 4 will fly soon. Do you think SP-5 & 6 will be delivered by 31st March?





Sloth 22 said:


> HAL had 8 LCA a year capacity right now. But according to Matrubhumi, HAL has converted a nearby Koran Hanger to LCA assembly facility which will build 3 LCA a year.
> 
> That means 8+3=11 LCA.
> 
> When the second line of 8 LCA initially and 16 later gets started , that would mean 27 LCA a year ,but it would happen when MK1A enters SP.
> 
> By end of March SP5 will be flying for sure.
> 
> SP6 should come by end of April.



There's a good chance SP-6 will be delivered by the end of March and SPs until SP-11 are in the production line right now.

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/827031614467108864

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/827045734105174017

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/827122637327314944


Beyond 2019-20 when the MK.1A is in service they will be churning out *>24/year* with that third production line meaning >200 LCA are assured now (no way would HAL invest in infrastructrure that saw the 83 unit order complete within 4-5 years).

Seriously impressive work from HAL (I know, crazy isn't it?!) they have hit the ground running and are scaling up as fast as they possibly can.

These guys have learnt their lessons and are not under-promising and over delivering, creating such impressive production capacity within just 4 years of series production commencing is no small feat. For 4 years the Chinese were only making 4-5 JF-17s a year, HAL will beat this rate within 18 months.


Things are finally looking VERY bright for the LCA project (won't comment on the Kaveri too much but adding that from some point after 2020 will be the cherry on top of the cake).


I also think this news seems to validate the IDRW news that the MK.2's production will be entirely handed over to a private player with HAL taking care of the MK.1A. Earlier HAL were trying to rope in a private player for this 3rd production line but I guess they didn't get any serious interest and thus are going alone.

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## rockstarIN

The pic above is SP5, will not be ready by March it seeems


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## Abingdonboy

rockstarIN said:


> The pic above is SP5, will not be ready by March it seeems


_“We had our share of concerns and all that has been put behind now. We had adopted all modern production philosophies to roll out a world class fighter. The feedback from the user has been encouraging. You will see SP-4 and SP-5 flying soon,” says Raju._

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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Abingdonboy said:


> _“We had our share of concerns and all that has been put behind now. We had adopted all modern production philosophies to roll out a world class fighter. The feedback from the user has been encouraging. You will see SP-4 and SP-5 flying soon,” says Raju._



^^^^

Thank you very much for your informative posts and you contribute a lot with your valuable posts. But HAL / DRDO / ADA require serious overhauling to achieve a desirable results honestly it is long overdue. Atleast government should pass this bill to prohibit quotas system in defense sector and all fresh appointment base on merit level. I know some of our country mates may disagree but we need to stop this Sarkari Nuakri / Hukommati Mulazimaat attitude at some point. It hurting us a lot it is a high time government should take some unprecedented steps to clean this mess on urgent basis.

Regards,
Jailer


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## Storm Force

Nice to see tejas beginning to turn into reality 


The lessons that India learned about fighter development and developing the infrastructures to mass produce this plane over the next decade will be priceless has India moves from mk1 to mk2 to amca in the next decade. 

It's no raptor or rafale but thankfully the Pakistan is have a modest airforce for now so tejas will be a perfect fighter for handling their thunders and mlu f16

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/829369649422798849

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## Sliver

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/829369649422798849



not unless you guys first increase its production rate. Also, maybe have a clear development path to show what is being added and when.

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## Sri

Its happening...
https://twitter.com/IndiaTodayFLASH

CCS clears 2nd production line for tejas.

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## Abingdonboy

Sliver said:


> not unless you guys first increase its production rate


By 2020 the installed capacity will be 19-25 LCA/year, at that rate there will be room for servicing a relatively small export order. 


Sliver said:


> Also, maybe have a clear development path to show what is being added and when.



Fair enough but the timeline and details for MK.1A (with AESA, SPJ and improved EW suite) is pretty well known, the details for MK.2 will be released in time. 

The Kaveri will also be making a return in the next 5 years.

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830353642284658689

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830376144503455744

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830322158639468545

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## thesolar65

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830353642284658689
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830376144503455744
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830322158639468545


I was going to post this here as a separate thread. Actually it may not be great news for others, but I had been advocating to fly at least one LCA with Kaveri Engine. My wish has come true. Kaveri was only flown with IL-76. Now it will fly with PV-1. Great!!

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## Abingdonboy

thesolar65 said:


> I was going to post this here as a separate thread. Actually it may not be great news for others, but I had been advocating to fly at least one LCA with Kaveri Engine. My wish has come true. Kaveri was only flown with IL-76. Now it will fly with PV-1. Great!!


When this happens, the chances for the F-16 ad Gripen in India offically drop to 0.

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## Robinhood Pandey

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1336178693126849





@Abingdonboy @hellfire @anant_s @Kinetic

enjoy 

but somehow it looks like Rafale to me . .

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/830751095810985985

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831292433287749634


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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

Air Chief to fly LCA at Aero India::

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/home-made-fighter-jet-tejas-to-be-flown.html?m=1

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## Abingdonboy




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## BATMAN

*Indian navy spurns homemade warplane *

BENGALURU: India’s navy is in the hunt for a new foreign fighter jet after rejecting an indigenously made aircraft as too heavy, the latest sign of the struggle to get Asian militaries to buy locally to grow their defense industries.
The navy last month invited manufacturers to pitch for 57 planes for its aircraft carriers, a multi-billion dollar order the government had hoped would go to the state-run producers of India’s Tejas, a combat aircraft 33 years in the making.
India, South Korea, Taiwan and other Asian buyers are expected to intensify efforts this year to develop indigenous warplanes, military officials said, due to anxieties that the US may be less engaged in the region under President Donald Trump.
But their hopes of manufacturing state-of-the-art warplanes could still be decades away as countries need more time to master the technology, experts said.
“It has been long on ambition short on success,” Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said of the drive.
“These things are being done because of techno-nationalism. They are done because these countries perceive of themselves as rising powers.”
As part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make-in-India” campaign, scientists will showcase the Tejas warplane at an air show opening in Bengaluru on Tuesday. But the jet remains a work in progress, with only three in service with the air force.
South Korea, supported by Indonesia, has multi-billion dollar plans to develop a twin-engined KF-X fighter jet, while Taiwan said this month it plans to build 66 jet trainer aircraft that could eventually help it manufacture a combat plane.
Chang Yeoung-keun, an adviser on the KF-X fighter jet project and a professor at Korea Aerospace University, said full development of the plane and its technologies will take decades.
“South Korea needs to develop core technologies of the jets, not just shells,” he said. “I am skeptical. South Korea may be able to develop core technology in 30 to 40 years, but they have to develop them in 10 years, with current fighter jets aging.”
Cleared by the government in 1983, the Indian plane was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.
Instead, it suffered years of delay with scientists trying to build the world’s most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.
In December, the navy chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba, said the sea version of the plane was “not up to the mark” and it could not take off from an aircraft carrier once weapons were loaded.
A source in the navy said that the plane for years has failed flight tests when taking off from a 200-meter carrier deck with weapons on board. That prompted the navy to issue a request last month for information for a foreign fighter to fill the gap, the first stage in a long procurement process.
Boeing Co. has pitched its F-A/18 Hornet, that the US navy flies from its carriers, to the Indian Defense Ministry, including an offer to build it locally.
Sweden’s Saab AB said on Friday it will offer the naval version of its Gripen fighter to the Indian navy.
India’s top defense scientists said they were disappointed by the navy’s decision and that fighter aircraft development was a challenge everywhere, including with the US Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35.
“Look at the F-35, with all the might of the multinational effort, is still evolving,” said a source in the aeronautical development agency which is spearheading the LCA effort.

@Windjammer @MastanKhan
Looks like, someone forgot to update this thread!

TEJA failing to takeoff :o

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## Abingdonboy

BATMAN said:


> *Indian navy spurns homemade warplane *
> 
> BENGALURU: India’s navy is in the hunt for a new foreign fighter jet after rejecting an indigenously made aircraft as too heavy, the latest sign of the struggle to get Asian militaries to buy locally to grow their defense industries.
> The navy last month invited manufacturers to pitch for 57 planes for its aircraft carriers, a multi-billion dollar order the government had hoped would go to the state-run producers of India’s Tejas, a combat aircraft 33 years in the making.
> India, South Korea, Taiwan and other Asian buyers are expected to intensify efforts this year to develop indigenous warplanes, military officials said, due to anxieties that the US may be less engaged in the region under President Donald Trump.
> But their hopes of manufacturing state-of-the-art warplanes could still be decades away as countries need more time to master the technology, experts said.
> “It has been long on ambition short on success,” Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said of the drive.
> “These things are being done because of techno-nationalism. They are done because these countries perceive of themselves as rising powers.”
> As part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make-in-India” campaign, scientists will showcase the Tejas warplane at an air show opening in Bengaluru on Tuesday. But the jet remains a work in progress, with only three in service with the air force.
> South Korea, supported by Indonesia, has multi-billion dollar plans to develop a twin-engined KF-X fighter jet, while Taiwan said this month it plans to build 66 jet trainer aircraft that could eventually help it manufacture a combat plane.
> Chang Yeoung-keun, an adviser on the KF-X fighter jet project and a professor at Korea Aerospace University, said full development of the plane and its technologies will take decades.
> “South Korea needs to develop core technologies of the jets, not just shells,” he said. “I am skeptical. South Korea may be able to develop core technology in 30 to 40 years, but they have to develop them in 10 years, with current fighter jets aging.”
> Cleared by the government in 1983, the Indian plane was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.
> Instead, it suffered years of delay with scientists trying to build the world’s most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.
> In December, the navy chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba, said the sea version of the plane was “not up to the mark” and it could not take off from an aircraft carrier once weapons were loaded.
> A source in the navy said that the plane for years has failed flight tests when taking off from a 200-meter carrier deck with weapons on board. That prompted the navy to issue a request last month for information for a foreign fighter to fill the gap, the first stage in a long procurement process.
> Boeing Co. has pitched its F-A/18 Hornet, that the US navy flies from its carriers, to the Indian Defense Ministry, including an offer to build it locally.
> Sweden’s Saab AB said on Friday it will offer the naval version of its Gripen fighter to the Indian navy.
> India’s top defense scientists said they were disappointed by the navy’s decision and that fighter aircraft development was a challenge everywhere, including with the US Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35.
> “Look at the F-35, with all the might of the multinational effort, is still evolving,” said a source in the aeronautical development agency which is spearheading the LCA effort.
> 
> @Windjammer @MastanKhan
> Looks like, someone forgot to update this thred!


Complete fabrications, the N-LCA Mk.1 was NEVER meant to enter service it was always a technology demonstrator to understand, validate and test arrested landing, "hard" landings, restrainted take offs, short take offs and operations at sea level), the N-LCA Mk.2 was ALWAYS the model the IN wanted.

Some, with motives unknown, have twisted this truth and created a narrative that is "N-LCA rejected by IN".



This LIE has been rebutted now:
*LCA-Navy has full support*
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...cos-manohar-parrikar/articleshow/57147448.cms







The IN are funding 25% of the new LCA production line along with the IAF (25%) and HAL (50%), they are fully behind the project and waiting for their N-LCA MK.2

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## BATMAN

^^ Sure its a lie and you need to sue Saudi King.
@Khafee

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## Abingdonboy

BATMAN said:


> ^^ Sure its a lie and you need to sue Saudi King.
> @Khafee


The facts are presented to you in my post, if you are unable to accept them because of your own bias that is your issue but please leave and do not derail one of the few decent threads here.

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## BATMAN

Abingdonboy said:


> The facts are presented to you in my post, if you are unable to accept them because of your own bias that is your issue but please leave and do not derail one of the few decent threads here.


Dude i'm just posting the news and you agreed that LCA is not going in naval service.
What you posted is more of stats. they may be factual, neither anyone is challenging them!

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## Abingdonboy

BATMAN said:


> Dude i'm just posting the news and you agreed that LCA is not going in naval service.
> What you posted is more of stats. they may be factual, neither anyone is challenging them!


Did you even read what I posted?

The LCA IS going into service, the N-LCA Mk.1 is a technology demonstrator for the version the IN wants (the MK.2) if you want you can scroll back through this exact thread where this has been made clear consistently by simple everyday members who have an interest in defence. 

So this entire media storm about "IN rejecting N-LCA" is 100% false as they are misreporting established facts and creating an entirely misleading narrative. 


On one hand you guys will mock the "masala yellow Bollywood journalism" of the Indian media and then when it suits you you will turn around and quote it as gospel. 

The Indian media are not reliable sources, they are either too incompetent to understand nuances or have their own motives. 

Nothing has changed, the N-LCA project is on track, above is the Defence Minister of India saying as much himself.

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## ranadd

BATMAN said:


> Dude i'm just posting the news and you agreed that LCA is not going in naval service.
> What you posted is more of stats. they may be factual, neither anyone is challenging them!



Good fellow. Which LCA are you speaking of? There are 3 variants in reality and 1 in paper.

LCA mk1 - In IAF Service, will be upgraded to mk1a. No mk2 for IAF.
LCA Navy mk1 - For IN. It was a TD from the get go. No suitable for carrier ops. This is the one you speak. This is a very different "LCA"
LCA Navy mk2 - For IN.

Why you think the government allotted 2 assembly lines and converted 1 existing assembly line as well? That is 3 in total if math is a problem.

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## Abingdonboy

ranadd said:


> Good fellow. Which LCA are you speaking of? There are 3 variants in reality and 1 in paper.
> 
> LCA mk1 - In IAF Service, will be upgraded to mk1a. No mk2 for IAF.
> LCA Navy mk1 - For IN. It was a TD from the get go. No suitable for carrier ops. This is the one you speak ok.
> LCA Navy mk2 - For IN.


The IAF will be going for the MK.2 don't worry about that but they will do so after the IN have developed the N-LCA Mk.2.

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## ranadd

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF will be going for the MK.2 don't worry about that but they will do so after the IN have developed the N-LCA Mk.2.



I would guess it may be so. But right now, the ink is for what I say.

mk2 is a good replacement for all the mirage & DARIN 3 jaguars.


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## Abingdonboy

ranadd said:


> mk2 is a good replacement for all the mirage & DARIN 3 jaguars.


That will be the AMCA post-2030, the MK.2 will serve as a good bridge between the LCA and MMRCA/HRCA catergory.

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## The Eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> So this entire media storm about "IN rejecting N-LCA" is 100% false as they are misreporting established facts and creating an entirely misleading narrative.



Why media is creating storm?




Abingdonboy said:


> On one hand you guys will mock the "masala yellow Bollywood journalism" of the Indian media and then when it suits you you will turn around and quote it as gospel.



The usual Nationalism and towing Government narrative contrary to the facts, proves it to be yellow when it comes to Pakistan. Opposing Pakistan and maligning us, is normal duty of indian media but here we are talking about Indian Media against Own Government which is unique if we go by your logic. 




Abingdonboy said:


> The Indian media are not reliable sources, they are either too incompetent to understand nuances or have their own motives.



Media is not reliable source and true that but Military/Navy should step up with official statement about the matter which is constantly reported by media houses and also, what are the media motives here to undermine an Indian National Project and mislead the people and work against National Interests.


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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831750208237219842

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831754734570717184

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## ssethii

Do we have a picture of LCA that Navy has agreed to conduct and for which carrier?


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## Rain

Abingdonboy said:


> Did you even read what I posted?
> 
> 
> *The Indian media are not reliable sources, they are either too incompetent to understand nuances or have their own motives. *
> 
> Nothing has changed, the N-LCA project is on track, above is the Defence Minister of India saying as much himself.


The Same media when utters anti Pakistan rants, then this media is believed as most reliable one. Ye tu khulla tazad hy Bhai!


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## gslv mk3

The Eagle said:


> Why media is creating storm?



Because they get paid by the lobbyists,perhaps ?


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## The Eagle

gslv mk3 said:


> Because they get paid by the lobbyists,perhaps ?



Perhaps, means you are not sure but put it on Media..... or the lobby exists then?

waiting for the details.

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## gslv mk3

The Eagle said:


> Perhaps, means you are not sure but put it on Media..... or the lobby exists then?
> 
> waiting for the details.



It might. We may not know for sure.


----------



## MULUBJA

BATMAN said:


> *Indian navy spurns homemade warplane *
> 
> BENGALURU: India’s navy is in the hunt for a new foreign fighter jet after rejecting an indigenously made aircraft as too heavy, the latest sign of the struggle to get Asian militaries to buy locally to grow their defense industries.
> The navy last month invited manufacturers to pitch for 57 planes for its aircraft carriers, a multi-billion dollar order the government had hoped would go to the state-run producers of India’s Tejas, a combat aircraft 33 years in the making.
> India, South Korea, Taiwan and other Asian buyers are expected to intensify efforts this year to develop indigenous warplanes, military officials said, due to anxieties that the US may be less engaged in the region under President Donald Trump.
> But their hopes of manufacturing state-of-the-art warplanes could still be decades away as countries need more time to master the technology, experts said.
> “It has been long on ambition short on success,” Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said of the drive.
> “These things are being done because of techno-nationalism. They are done because these countries perceive of themselves as rising powers.”
> As part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make-in-India” campaign, scientists will showcase the Tejas warplane at an air show opening in Bengaluru on Tuesday. But the jet remains a work in progress, with only three in service with the air force.
> South Korea, supported by Indonesia, has multi-billion dollar plans to develop a twin-engined KF-X fighter jet, while Taiwan said this month it plans to build 66 jet trainer aircraft that could eventually help it manufacture a combat plane.
> Chang Yeoung-keun, an adviser on the KF-X fighter jet project and a professor at Korea Aerospace University, said full development of the plane and its technologies will take decades.
> “South Korea needs to develop core technologies of the jets, not just shells,” he said. “I am skeptical. South Korea may be able to develop core technology in 30 to 40 years, but they have to develop them in 10 years, with current fighter jets aging.”
> Cleared by the government in 1983, the Indian plane was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.
> Instead, it suffered years of delay with scientists trying to build the world’s most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.
> In December, the navy chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba, said the sea version of the plane was “not up to the mark” and it could not take off from an aircraft carrier once weapons were loaded.
> A source in the navy said that the plane for years has failed flight tests when taking off from a 200-meter carrier deck with weapons on board. That prompted the navy to issue a request last month for information for a foreign fighter to fill the gap, the first stage in a long procurement process.
> Boeing Co. has pitched its F-A/18 Hornet, that the US navy flies from its carriers, to the Indian Defense Ministry, including an offer to build it locally.
> Sweden’s Saab AB said on Friday it will offer the naval version of its Gripen fighter to the Indian navy.
> India’s top defense scientists said they were disappointed by the navy’s decision and that fighter aircraft development was a challenge everywhere, including with the US Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35.
> “Look at the F-35, with all the might of the multinational effort, is still evolving,” said a source in the aeronautical development agency which is spearheading the LCA effort.
> 
> @Windjammer @MastanKhan
> Looks like, someone forgot to update this thread!
> 
> TEJA failing to takeoff :o


 
Indian navy did right thing. Single engine plane is not suitable for aircraft carrier. Nore over, plane need higher thrust for NAVAL variant. HAL and ADA need to do lot more work to make tejas acceptable to navy.


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## The Eagle

gslv mk3 said:


> It might. We may not know for sure.



got it but not sure can be treated as media can be right too hence, official must step-up to confirm and clear the confusion also, will be waiting for @Abingdonboy to confirm the same what he posted.


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## hussain0216

MULUBJA said:


> Indian navy did right thing. Single engine plane is not suitable for aircraft carrier. Nore over, plane need higher thrust for NAVAL variant. HAL and ADA need to do lot more work to make tejas acceptable to navy.



Sure

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## Khafee

BATMAN said:


> ^^ Sure its a lie and you need to sue Saudi King.
> @Khafee


Oh you evil Pakistanis you have no faith in bharat's Teja bhaiya. You just wait till it is up and flying like the Dhruv in Ecuador.

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## Robinhood Pandey

Khafee said:


> Oh you evil Pakistanis you have no faith in bharat's Teja bhaiya. You just wait till it is up and flying like the Dhruv in Ecuador.



Well analysed and highly articulated post with detailed facts and figures.

Like a "MILITARY PRO"

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## MULUBJA

Anusha Ravi ‏@anusharavi10  Feb 13
A foreign correspondent from APN looks at Tejas steal d show at #AeroIndia2017 n asks 'Is tat Indian? It's so fast'

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## gslv mk3

Khafee said:


> Oh you evil Pakistanis you have no faith in bharat's Teja bhaiya. You just wait till it is up and flying like the Dhruv in Ecuador.



There are over 300 Dhruvs in service, but some people love to focus on failures. Oh well.

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## Khafee

Robinhood Pandey said:


> Well analysed and highly articulated post with detailed facts and figures.
> 
> Like a "MILITARY PRO"





gslv mk3 said:


> There are over 300 Dhruvs in service, but some people love to focus on failures. Oh well.


I thought Ecuador was an export success?

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## H!TchHiker

MULUBJA said:


> Anusha Ravi ‏@anusharavi10  Feb 13
> A foreign correspondent from APN looks at Tejas steal d show at #AeroIndia2017 n asks 'Is tat Indian? It's so fast'


LOL 'Is tat Indian? It's so fast'You are taking it as a compliment.
Was there some racing competition ? Which car got the first position ?

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## MULUBJA

H!TchHiker said:


> LOL 'Is tat Indian? It's so fast'You are taking it as a compliment.
> Was there some racing competition ? Which car got the first position ?


 
Ohh no I am sorry. I must know that some plane which flies like glider are most suitable for air warfare and being fast is a bad quality.


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## H!TchHiker

MULUBJA said:


> Ohh no I am sorry. I must know that some plane which flies like glider are most suitable for air warfare and being fast is a bad quality.


By the way which aircraft was the fastest in this competition ?

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## MULUBJA

H!TchHiker said:


> By the way which aircraft was the fastest in this competition ?


 
I will ask them when I go there and let you know.


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## gslv mk3

Khafee said:


> I thought Ecuador was an export success?



Probably a product support disaster


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## Abingdonboy

The Eagle said:


> Why media is creating storm?


1)Masala/controversy gets them traffic (TRP) ie "clickbait".
2) Most (if not all) so-called defence journalists in India have explicit ties to foriegn OEMs and SAAB, Boeing and Lockhead Martin pay the most.

Augsta Westland alone spent 10s of millions of USD in "media managment", you connect the dots.

http://www.news18.com/news/india/ag...6-million-to-manage-indian-media-1235834.html
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ustaWestland-chopper-deal/article16982274.ece
http://zeenews.india.com/news/india...-news-channels-senior-journalist_1883096.html



The Eagle said:


> t Indian Media against Own Government which is unique if we go by your logic.


You clearly don't follow the Indian media close enough, they are mostly sensationlist and oppose the govt where possible.



The Eagle said:


> Media is not reliable source and true that but Military/Navy should step up with official statement about


The ultimate authority on defence matters in India- the defence minister- has publically rubbished these claims and stated there is an internal Indian lobby to spread such lies.

===========
===========



PV-05 and PV-06 (part of the NFTC's test fleet) undertake customer exhibition flights at Aero India 2017:

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## The Eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> The ultimate authority on defence matters in India- the defence minister- has publically rubbished these claims and stated there is an internal Indian lobby to spread such lies.



May I have the link for the official statement w.r.t. fake news circulated against LCA-N rejection and all.


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## egodoc222

Guys watch Vishnu som lca sortie on ndtv now!

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## Water Car Engineer

*Among the main parts, major modules outsourced are:

Wing to L&T (Coimbatore)

Central Fuselage to VEM Technologies (Hyderabad) 

Rear Fuselage to Alpha Tocol (Bengaluru)*

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## Centurion2016

That's tejas in that camo looks stunning

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## proud_indian

Centurion2016 said:


> That's tejas in that camo looks stunning



everyone has the same observation and even build quality is way better

@Abingdonboy

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## Crixus

This is the best thing , which this project has done the aviation eco system .... 33 years will pay us as good eco system and ....I am sure it will churn out some good products  and quality will definitely go up. 



Water Car Engineer said:


> *Among the main parts, major modules outsourced are:
> 
> Wing to L&T (Coimbatore)
> 
> Central Fuselage to VEM Technologies (Hyderabad)
> 
> Rear Fuselage to Alpha Tocol (Bengaluru)*

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## Abingdonboy

Centurion2016 said:


> That's tejas in that camo looks stunning


The N-LCA actually isn't called "Tejas", it is yet to be offically given a name.


Just being pedantic 


Crixus said:


> This is the best thing , which this project has done the aviation eco system .... 33 years will pay us as good eco system and ....I am sure it will churn out some good products  and quality will definitely go up.


YUP! And India should build on this and fiercly protect such expertise, not allow foreigners (ie SAAB and LM) to come in and dismantle it.

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## ranadd

Abingdonboy said:


> The N-LCA actually isn't called "Tejas", it is yet to be offically given a name.
> 
> 
> Just being pedantic



Very true. Tejas failed. Tejas inducted. I mean what the hell?. Just give its own names.


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## halupridol




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## Abingdonboy

HAL LCA:

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## Abingdonboy



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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


>


Awesome pic...that's gonna be my wp....can you post hq video of latest sorties in Aero india...

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## Centurion2016

Is that three LSP.

In a row


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## PakEye

MULUBJA said:


> Anusha Ravi ‏@anusharavi10  Feb 13
> A foreign correspondent from APN looks at Tejas steal d show at #AeroIndia2017 n asks 'Is tat Indian? It's so fast'


Thanks to American General Electric Engine F-404


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## mansoor raja

pakeye said:


> Thanks to American General Electric Engine F-404


Buy one engine and do the same without china

We have to take Tejas seriously now. Day by Day they are making it perfect. Last thing we need is India producing Tejas in large numbers and we don't induct twin engine

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## PakEye

mansoor raja said:


> Buy one engine and do the same without china
> We have to take Tejas seriously now. Day by Day they are making it perfect. Last thing we need is India producing Tejas in large numbers and we don't induct twin engine


Hahaha American engine will be sanction prone every year you will be in need of Approval of US congress and same things are with the French engines. After waste of three decades and Billions of rupees LCA Tejas prototypes are not useable for IAF and Indian navy on other hand JF-17 thunder is entered in Blcok-I to Block-II and now JF-17B dual seater and JF-17 Block-III are coming with AESA Radar.


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## Abingdonboy

pakeye said:


> Hahaha American engine will be sanction prone every year you will be in need of Approval of US congress and same things are with the French engines. After waste of three decades and Billions of rupees LCA Tejas prototypes are not useable for IAF and Indian navy on other hand JF-17 thunder is entered in Blcok-I to Block-II and now JF-17B dual seater and JF-17 Block-III are coming with AESA Radar.


1) LCA will fly with the Kaveri by 2019, that engine will be in service by 2021
2) LCA has already been inducted into the IAF
3) By 2020 the production rate will be >20/year
4) The LCA Mk.1A will have an AESA radar, IFR probe, OBOGS, advanced EW suite etc etc
5) Mk.1A will fly in 2018/19, will be in service from 2020-21
6) A much more advanced variant (Mk.2) is being designed that will be larger with longer range and more powerful engine, it will eb in service from 2025-6


Those are the facts, now my opinion; the LCA Mk.1A is superior to any variant of the JF-17

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## ranadd

I think the Pakistani folks here are not aware or they ignore the fact that few billions from the existing rafale project is being infused _*by Dassault*_ into LCA projects. Understand the "by Dassault" part very clearly.

LCA flying with Kaveri, UTTAM AESA, ASTRA BVR is Dassaults requirement now.

The idea of LCA is to be 100% Indian. No other ways about it

The 3 assembly lines for a failed aircraft?. Yes, please.

Indian's are shrewd.



pakeye said:


> After waste of three decades and Billions of rupees LCA Tejas prototypes are not useable for IAF and Indian navy on other hand JF-17 thunder is entered in Blcok-I to Block-II and now JF-17B dual seater and JF-17 Block-III are coming with AESA Radar.



Hahaha.

After 3 decades of development, LCA Tejas is deployed to active duty for the primary user, The IAF.

LCA Tejas Naval, which happens to be a different jet, is and was always a TD.

LCA Tejas Mk1A, is the next variant with AESA. Orders are placed with ink dried. This variant will be equipped with Kaveri next year for testing as well.

LCA Tejas mk2, is the jet for The IN. They are the primary user for that.

So my good friend, next time onward, please explain which jet.

Block 1 to 3 also mean incremental deliveries.

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## PakEye

ranadd said:


> I think the Pakistani folks here are not aware or they ignore the fact that few billions from the existing rafale project is being infused _*by Dassault*_ into LCA projects. Understand the "by Dassault" part very clearly.
> 
> LCA flying with Kaveri, UTTAM AESA, ASTRA BVR is Dassaults requirement now.
> 
> The idea of LCA is to be 100% Indian. No other ways about it
> 
> The 3 assembly lines for a failed aircraft?. Yes, please.
> 
> Indian's are shrewd.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha.
> 
> After 3 decades of development, LCA Tejas is deployed to active duty for the primary user, The IAF.
> 
> LCA Tejas Naval, which happens to be a different jet, is and was always a TD.
> 
> LCA Tejas Mk1A, is the next variant with AESA. Orders are placed with ink dried. This variant will be equipped with Kaveri next year for testing as well.
> 
> LCA Tejas mk2, is the jet for The IN. They are the primary user for that.
> 
> So my good friend, next time onward, please explain which jet.
> 
> Block 1 to 3 also mean incremental deliveries.


KAVERI engine is not up to mark and now F-404 GE engine is importing from US.
Dolor Few Billion infuse in LCA Tejas Dream has been broken because now you are buying only 36 Rafale instead of 100 plus on very charitable concessional price and now your make in India Rafale is gone, Now the off Shelf Rafale will import from France.
and LCA TEjas MK1a or mk2 will be available in future than JF-17B and JF-17 Block-III are coming in PAF inventory.

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## Alok Arya

pakeye said:


> KAVERI engine is not up to mark and now F-404 GE engine is importing from US.
> Dolor Few Billion infuse in LCA Tejas Dream has been broken because now you are buying only 36 Rafale instead of 100 plus on very charitable concessional price and now your make in India Rafale is gone, Now the off Shelf Rafale will import from France.
> and LCA TEjas MK1a or mk2 will be available in future than JF-17B and JF-17 Block-III are coming in PAF inventory.


By the way from where aesa radar is coming for jf 17 . And when it is coming ? Time line etc ?


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## PakEye

Alok Arya said:


> By the way from where aesa radar is coming for jf 17 . And when it is coming ? Time line etc ?


Many options are available from china klj7a or from selex .
Before LCA Tejas mk1a and mk2.


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## mansoor raja

pakeye said:


> Hahaha American engine will be sanction prone every year you will be in need of Approval of US congress and same things are with the French engines. After waste of three decades and Billions of rupees LCA Tejas prototypes are not useable for IAF and Indian navy on other hand JF-17 thunder is entered in Blcok-I to Block-II and now JF-17B dual seater and JF-17 Block-III are coming with AESA Radar.


I don't think US will sanction India in near future


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## Alok Arya

pakeye said:


> Many options are available from china klj7a or from selex .
> Before LCA Tejas mk1a and mk2.


Ok BVR capability on klja has been proved or it is in testing phase .


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## Robinhood Pandey



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## sathya

Robinhood Pandey said:


> View attachment 379654




Lots of sensors and antennas poking out..

Auxiliary air inlet is opened in this pic ..

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## ranadd

@Robinhood Pandey 

Mate. Please let me know if you can share the pics you took without watermark via PM. For personal collection of course. Or in the other place.


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## patman

abcxyz0000 said:


> *Despite being an Indian I have only criticism for Tejas plane.*
> 
> *I don't understand what Indians blabber about when they say that Tejas plane is indigenous.*
> 
> *Let us take the promise of indigenous development. In 1986 an agreement was quietly signed with the United States that permitted DRDO to work with four US Air force laboratories. The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.*



......why are u copy pasting the same comment in every thread ?

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## Taygibay

abcxyz0000 said:


> Why you are shitting on keyboard?



Was that really necessary?

Tay.

P.S. That exchange doesn't paint either of you in a good light, guys!

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## Great Sachin

Taygibay said:


> Was that really necessary?
> 
> Tay.
> 
> P.S. That exchange doesn't paint either of you in a good light, guys!


He is false flagger


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## GuardianRED

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


Guessing that is vishnu som in the back


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## Hindustani78

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/598240/tejas-fighter-plane-developer-harinarayana.html
Cuttack, Feb 25, 2016, PTI:




*Scientist Dr Kota Harinarayana, who is credited with developing India's first home-grown light combat aircraft 'Tejas', was today conferred honorary Doctor of Science degree by Ravenshaw University here.*

Governor and University Chancellor Dr S C Jamir honoured Dr Harinarayana, born at Berhampur in Ganjam district, at the eighth Convocation of the University. Dr Kota Harinarayana has worked with HAL and DRDO and has been the driving force behind developing 'Tejas'. He was awarded Padmashri in 2002.

'Tejas' is the smallest and lightest Multi-Role Supersonic Fighter Aircraft of its class. It is a single engine, Compound-Delta-Wing, Tailless Aircraft.

Along with Harinarayana, two other distinguished scholars of the state, Prof Jitendra Nath Mohanty and Prof Gour Kishore Das, were also honoured on the occasion by the University with honoris causa.

At least 90 students of the University were awarded with PhD degrees on the day, while 30 postgraduate students and 32 undergraduate students were given gold medals.

The University Chancellor in his address called upon the graduates to be the flag-bearer of the emerging knowledge society. "Be ethical and transparent in whatever career you choose and contribute to the development of the State and the nation," Dr Jamir said.

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## nik141993

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


>


now that's some quality pics & this camo look superb

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## Lord Of Gondor

Here is Air Marshal (Retired) Philip Rajkumar in conversation with RJ Darius talking about the Tejas (and other very interesting events).
The uploader has compiled a great video including some very rare pictures.

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## mansoor raja

What


Lord Of Gondor said:


> Here is Air Marshal (Retired) Philip Rajkumar in conversation with RJ Darius talking about the Tejas (and other very interesting events).
> The uploader has compiled a great video including some very rare pictures.


 Was that ? First twin white aircraft? Tejas or rafale ? Amazing performance for prototype


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

mansoor raja said:


> What
> 
> Was that ? First twin white aircraft? Tejas or rafale ? Amazing performance for prototype


It's the Tejas

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## Water Car Engineer

*Mark 1 Cockpit






Possible Mark 2*

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## X_Killer

AERO INDIA PERFORMANCE MAKES YOUR DAY AWESOME

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Mark 1 Cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Possible Mark 2*


Possible MK.2 cockpit:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/836116590047412224

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Possible MK.2 cockpit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/836116590047412224




hope they go for single panel.

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## Abingdonboy

_






Tejas departed Yelahanka Air Force Station yesterday Morning with a bang sound with 3 Formation._

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## Abingdonboy

-------
-------


































_
We present here an image, recollecting one of the glorious moments Tejas has experienced. This is from the practice days for Republic Day Parade 2017 over RajPath.



_

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Possible MK.2 cockpit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/836116590047412224




This is pretty interesting @Abingdonboy 

Who is producing this? Is this DARE developed, Samtel(etc..) produced? Or HALBIT?


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## bloo




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## RPK

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1513916608620836





To complete a successful mission a fighter needs to quickly locate targets and identify threats. That’s the key idea behind our fighter sensor package offered for India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.


----------



## Abingdonboy

SP-4 flies, will be handed over to 45 SQN in the next 2 weeks:

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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> SP-4 flies, will be handed over to 45 SQN in the next 2 weeks:


On which prototype they are testing the aesa?


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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> On which prototype they are testing the aesa?


PV-2 AFAIK

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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> PV-2 AFAIK


So...after initial order of 14 aircraft is over then they will go for mk 1a production?
Does mk 1a need new airworthiness certification?
Are the tejas that have been flown in aeroindia have the new nose cone?
Too many questions lol


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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> So...after initial order of 14 aircraft is over then they will go for mk 1a production?


There are 20 Mk.1 on order, the MK.1A will fly in 2018, production should commence from mid-2019. 



egodoc222 said:


> Does mk 1a need new airworthiness certification?


No, the MK.1A is based on the Mk.1 airframe and will have no changes to the airframe, the improvements come in the sensors, electronics and some other additions. 

This was the entire purpose of the Mk.1A as proposed by HAL- a greatly improved system based on the existing platform to cover the interim until the Mk.2 was ready. 


egodoc222 said:


> Are the tejas that have been flown in aeroindia have the new nose cone?



AFAIK no, they are part of the test fleet and not focused on radar validation.

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## egodoc222

This initial 20orders...will be difficult...once they are past it...you'll see the snowball effect in play!!


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## GuardianRED

egodoc222 said:


> This initial 20orders...will be difficult...once they are past it...you'll see the snowball effect in play!!


Why would it be difficult ! SP5 is almost complete , possible handover end of april.

Explain snowball effect?

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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> This initial 20orders...will be difficult...once they are past it...you'll see the snowball effect in play!!


The intial 6 were troublesome AFAIK but now HAL are into their stride, all SPs up to SP11 are on the jig and work is going on flat out.



GuardianRED said:


> Why would it be difficult ! SP5 is almost complete , possible handover end of april.
> 
> Explain snowball effect?


SP-5 will be flying in the next few weeks, it should/could be handed over by late March, early April.



GuardianRED said:


> Why would it be difficult !


Taking something from a prototype/LSP to full production is a big task. Before PVs and LSP would be hand built induvidually with great care, now one has to mass produce them to an identical production spec. Naturally there will be learning process and there will be an uphill battle intially to create the requisite tooling, jigs and for the workers to become competent and the workforce to be large enough. 

HAL had such issues for the first 5-6 SPs but now are working flat out.

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> The intial 6 were troublesome AFAIK but now HAL are into their stride, all SPs up to SP11 are on the jig and work is going on flat out.
> 
> 
> SP-5 will be flying in the next few weeks, it should/could be handed over by late March, early April.
> 
> 
> Taking something from a prototype/LSP to full production is a big task. Before PVs and LSP would be hand built induvidually with great care, now one has to mass produce them to an identical production spec. Naturally there will be learning process and there will be an uphill battle intially to create the requisite tooling, jigs and for the workers to become competent and the workforce to be large enough.
> 
> HAL had such issues for the first 5-6 SPs but now are working flat out.


@egodoc222 what he said

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## egodoc222

GuardianRED said:


> @egodoc222 what he said


Snowball effect can be used in positive sense too....

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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> Snowball effect can be used in positive sense too....


For sure, success componds success.

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## Water Car Engineer

Any good pictures of the LCA with the refuel probe, which was in flight with other HAL products?


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## X_Killer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Any good pictures of the LCA with the refuel probe, which was in flight with other HAL products?



LA-5004 (SP-4), the fourth series produced LCA took to sky for the first time. After couple of evaluation sorties, she will become the fourth member of Flying Daggers.

Dreams inching towards reality..

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## Water Car Engineer

*










SP4*

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## sudhir007

Water Car Engineer said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SP4*








Is the gun integrate with sp4
https://ibb.co/j3VqFa

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL Tejas Naval Mark 1






Tejas Trainers *

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## Storm Force

TEJAS just looks awesome

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## Abingdonboy




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## bhaskar

Good video on LCA Tejas development.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

LCA:

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## Storm Force

GREAT VEDIO
HONEST OPINION FROM HAL CHAIRMAN & ACM AIRFORCE & TEST PILOTS

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## Mitro

All babus behind is just pretending to works .

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## Abingdonboy



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## Trichy



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## Hindustani78

A pair of Indian Air Force's Light combat aircraft ‘Tejas’ takes off during the 2nd day of the 11th biennial edition of Aero India 2017 at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru. | Photo Credit:  PTI 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-by-2024-25/article17532355.ece?homepage=true

* To enable this Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is in the process of setting up a new assembly line. *

If the present development and capacity enhancement plans go as per schedule, the Indian Air Force will have 123 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fighter jets in its fleet by 2024-25.

To enable this Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is in the process of setting up a new assembly line and is also involving the private sector in a big way, said the Chief Managing Director (CMD) of the public sector aerospace major T. Suvarna Raju in a conversation with _The Hindu_.

*The IAF has placed orders for 40 jets in two batches of which the first 20 are in the Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) while the remaining 20 are in the Final Operational Configuration (FOC). *Last July the IAF for operationalised the first Tejas squadron ‘45 flying daggers’ with three aircraft. Two more aircraft will join the squadron shortly.

Last November the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given initial clearance for 83 aircraft in the Mk-1A configuration with specific improvements sought by the IAF.

Mr. Raju said that about 45 improvements have been implemented in the 1A and HAL has already floated a tender for the Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ).

On the timeline for the development of the 1A, Mr. Raju said that the tender would be opened by March end after which technical evaluation and commercial negotiations would be held. “We will be able to prove it on the 1A by 2018 and start producing by 2019,” he observed.

Apart from the development, the induction is also delayed by the low production rate of eight aircraft per year. The government has recently given sanction for setting another assembly to increase production rate to 16 per year.

“The IAF will get Mk-1A in 2019 by that time our capacity will also go up to 16 aircraft per year,” Mr. Raju added.

To increase the production of the aircraft HAL has outsourced major parts of the jet. “We are trying to be an integrator rather than a manufacturer, he said.

The IAF is in urgent need of new fighters and the LCAs will replace the Mig fighters that are currently being phased out. IAF is scheduled to phase out all 11 squadrons of Mig-21 and Mig-27 fighters by 2024 on completion of their technical life.

On the issue of spares and supports which has been an area of constant concern from the services, Mr. Raju said they have now signed long term supply contracts with their vendors and stated that the availability of all platforms manufactured by HAL has now gone “above 65 percent.”

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## egodoc222

Hindustani78 said:


> A pair of Indian Air Force's Light combat aircraft ‘Tejas’ takes off during the 2nd day of the 11th biennial edition of Aero India 2017 at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru. | Photo Credit:  PTI
> 
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-by-2024-25/article17532355.ece?homepage=true
> 
> * To enable this Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is in the process of setting up a new assembly line. *
> 
> If the present development and capacity enhancement plans go as per schedule, the Indian Air Force will have 123 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fighter jets in its fleet by 2024-25.
> 
> To enable this Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is in the process of setting up a new assembly line and is also involving the private sector in a big way, said the Chief Managing Director (CMD) of the public sector aerospace major T. Suvarna Raju in a conversation with _The Hindu_.
> 
> *The IAF has placed orders for 40 jets in two batches of which the first 20 are in the Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) while the remaining 20 are in the Final Operational Configuration (FOC). *Last July the IAF for operationalised the first Tejas squadron ‘45 flying daggers’ with three aircraft. Two more aircraft will join the squadron shortly.
> 
> Last November the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given initial clearance for 83 aircraft in the Mk-1A configuration with specific improvements sought by the IAF.
> 
> Mr. Raju said that about 45 improvements have been implemented in the 1A and HAL has already floated a tender for the Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ).
> 
> On the timeline for the development of the 1A, Mr. Raju said that the tender would be opened by March end after which technical evaluation and commercial negotiations would be held. “We will be able to prove it on the 1A by 2018 and start producing by 2019,” he observed.
> 
> Apart from the development, the induction is also delayed by the low production rate of eight aircraft per year. The government has recently given sanction for setting another assembly to increase production rate to 16 per year.
> 
> “The IAF will get Mk-1A in 2019 by that time our capacity will also go up to 16 aircraft per year,” Mr. Raju added.
> 
> To increase the production of the aircraft HAL has outsourced major parts of the jet. “We are trying to be an integrator rather than a manufacturer, he said.
> 
> The IAF is in urgent need of new fighters and the LCAs will replace the Mig fighters that are currently being phased out. IAF is scheduled to phase out all 11 squadrons of Mig-21 and Mig-27 fighters by 2024 on completion of their technical life.
> 
> On the issue of spares and supports which has been an area of constant concern from the services, Mr. Raju said they have now signed long term supply contracts with their vendors and stated that the availability of all platforms manufactured by HAL has now gone “above 65 percent.”


Is he saying we'll have 40 lca by 2019?


----------



## Hindustani78

egodoc222 said:


> Is he saying we'll have 40 lca by 2019?



83 aircraft in the Mk-1A configuration with specific improvements as second production line is even there .

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## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> There are 20 Mk.1 on order, the MK.1A will fly in 2018, production should commence from mid-2019.
> 
> 
> No, the MK.1A is based on the Mk.1 airframe and will have no changes to the airframe, the improvements come in the sensors, electronics and some other additions.
> 
> This was the entire purpose of the Mk.1A as proposed by HAL- a greatly improved system based on the existing platform to cover the interim until the Mk.2 was ready.
> 
> 
> AFAIK no, they are part of the test fleet and not focused on radar validation.


Will the 20 MK1 will later be upgraded to MK1A standard? Sine it does not require airframe changes, i would assume the answer is yes.


----------



## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> Is he saying we'll have 40 lca by 2019?



It's a very ambitious target, more than likely they will be closer to 30 by that time but by the end of 2019 production will start to really ramp up (>16/year). The 2024-5 target will be met.



Hulk said:


> Will the 20 MK1 will later be upgraded to MK1A standard? Sine it does not require airframe changes, i would assume the answer is yes.


Yes, they can be upgraded to the MK.1A spec with little work, it will be the IAF's call, I'm not sure if there has been any offical indication yet that they have such plans.


----------



## X_Killer



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## Abingdonboy

*
Raju said, “The increased production rate will be visible from 2018 when we will be able to provide 16 planes per year under a Rs 1,300-crore expansion project (at the HAL facility in Bangalore).” 

The HAL CMD said the second part of the “increase-production plan” is to use the existing facility of the hawk trainer jets and a pilot project has already started. 

The third part involves outsourcing to private companies, thus turning HAL into an integrator – a concept adopted by leading foreign manufacturers. This will mean the Tejas fleet of 123 jets can be delivered earlier than planned.*

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...body-wings-hal-to-play-integrator/379448.html

Music to one's ears

- 16 LCA/year (1.3/month) rate to be reached sometime in 2018
- HAL looking to become more of a lead integrator (what many of us have been proposing for a while)

+ I think they will be touching 20-22/year by 2020 based on the three plans outlined above.

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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> *Raju said, “The increased production rate will be visible from 2018 when we will be able to provide 16 planes per year under a Rs 1,300-crore expansion project (at the HAL facility in Bangalore).”
> 
> The HAL CMD said the second part of the “increase-production plan” is to use the existing facility of the hawk trainer jets and a pilot project has already started.
> 
> The third part involves outsourcing to private companies, thus turning HAL into an integrator – a concept adopted by leading foreign manufacturers. This will mean the Tejas fleet of 123 jets can be delivered earlier than planned.*
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...body-wings-hal-to-play-integrator/379448.html
> 
> Music to one's ears
> 
> - 16 LCA/year (1.3/month) rate to be reached sometime in 2018
> - HAL looking to become more of a lead integrator (what many of us have been proposing for a while)
> 
> + I think they will be touching 20-22/year by 2020 based on the three plans outlined above.


It means by end of 2019 we might have all 40 mk1 delivered!! Right?


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## GuardianRED

egodoc222 said:


> It means by end of 2019 we might have all 40 mk1 delivered!! Right?


And if you think about it - 2019 isn't very far away

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## X_Killer




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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> It means by end of 2019 we might have all 40 mk1 delivered!! Right?


Well that's the plan considering the MK.1A will enter production from 2019/20 and first HAL have to deliver all 40 Mk.1 on order.

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Abingdonboy said:


> *Raju said, “The increased production rate will be visible from 2018 when we will be able to provide 16 planes per year under a Rs 1,300-crore expansion project (at the HAL facility in Bangalore).”
> 
> The HAL CMD said the second part of the “increase-production plan” is to use the existing facility of the hawk trainer jets and a pilot project has already started.
> 
> The third part involves outsourcing to private companies, thus turning HAL into an integrator – a concept adopted by leading foreign manufacturers. This will mean the Tejas fleet of 123 jets can be delivered earlier than planned.*
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...body-wings-hal-to-play-integrator/379448.html
> 
> Music to one's ears
> 
> - 16 LCA/year (1.3/month) rate to be reached sometime in 2018
> - HAL looking to become more of a lead integrator (what many of us have been proposing for a while)
> 
> + I think they will be touching 20-22/year by 2020 based on the three plans outlined above.



Interesting thing is that there're isn't a pip squeak about Mk1A. What is the status of the new (lighter) landing gear? Have they integrated/tested ELM 2052? Which airframe is being used for Mk1A - Tejas AF Mk1 or the LCA Navy Mk1 version??
Doesn't Tejas need another FOC with new radar and landing gear??


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Interesting thing is that there're isn't a pip squeak about Mk1A. What is the status of the new (lighter) landing gear? Have they integrated/tested ELM 2052? Which airframe is being used for Mk1A - Tejas AF Mk1 or the LCA Navy Mk1 version??
> Doesn't Tejas need another FOC with new radar and landing gear??


And you were angry at Prasun not acknowledging the Mk1A since there is no official docs to support that Mk1A exists  .... As mentioned in my previous post - as of now, we do know that the IAF has order the Mk1A BUT there is no official design released and only *officially a tender on the specs - thats it!*

Sources claim that the Mk1A will be based on the NLCA BUT not confirm, thus you question to the landing gear (nothing wrong with the landing gear for the tejas)

Honestly, we all have to just wait and watch. Right now only news for the current Mk1s are coming out


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> And you were angry at Prasun not acknowledging the Mk1A since there is no official docs to support that Mk1A exists  .... As mentioned in my previous post - as of now, we do know that the IAF has order the Mk1A BUT there is no official design released and only *officially a tender on the specs - thats it!*
> 
> Sources claim that the Mk1A will be based on the NLCA BUT not confirm, thus you question to the landing gear (nothing wrong with the landing gear for the tejas)
> 
> Honestly, we all have to just wait and watch. Right now only news for the current Mk1s are coming out


Not having the design details available is one thing, but denying its very existence when the who's who of HAL & MOD are making official statements is lunacy.
It's an obvious fact that not everyone will have access to ALL the information available out there. Different people will break different stories. The Trishul dude has major egomania that only he has access to ALL the information and anything that anyone else says is all bogus!! I think it is all fine to indulge in commentary (as in the utility of an idea, the pro & cons etc..) but to always make decrees and declaratory statements is foolish (IMHO). (Not to mention how abusive he gets with folks for no reason at all - recently I saw him call some polite dude an 'arsehole' just because he didn't want to reveal his real name!!!)
He has made such declarations on several issues and has been proven COMPLETELY wrong. To his credit, (like everyone else) he does break interesting news himself and brings to light some interesting analysis too. But I feel others get their information wrong due to error/ignorance, this dude dishes out misinformation merely due to arrogance - for an end user like you and I, we have to be careful while consuming information from either of those types.

Regarding Tejas Mk1A, one of the essential modification promised by HAL was to reduce the weight of the landing gear - as HAL themselves claimed that the current landing gear was 'over engineered' initially.


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Not having the design details available is one thing, but denying its very existence when the who's who of HAL & MOD are making official statements is lunacy.
> It's an obvious fact that not everyone will have access to ALL the information available out there. Different people will break different stories. The Trishul dude has major egomania that only he has access to ALL the information and anything that anyone else says is all bogus!! I think it is all fine to indulge in commentary (as in the utility of an idea, the pro & cons etc..) but to always make decrees and declaratory statements is foolish (IMHO). (Not to mention how abusive he gets with folks for no reason at all - recently I saw him call some polite dude an 'arsehole' just because he didn't want to reveal his real name!!!)
> He has made such declarations on several issues and has been proven COMPLETELY wrong. To his credit, (like everyone else) he does break interesting news himself and brings to light some interesting analysis too. But I feel others get their information wrong due to error/ignorance, this dude dishes out misinformation merely due to arrogance - for an end user like you and I, we have to be careful while consuming information from either of those types.
> 
> Regarding Tejas Mk1A, one of the essential modification promised by HAL was to reduce the weight of the landing gear - as HAL themselves claimed that the current landing gear was 'over engineered' initially.


True on Prasun.... and yes read abt that guy too!

On the MK1A, the over-engineered landing gear is for the NLCA (very old report) ... so this could be a small hint that this NLCA will be the basis for the Mk1A. Still we have to wait till something concrete comes along ... 2018 isn't far!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> True on Prasun.... and yes read abt that guy too!
> 
> On the MK1A, the over-engineered landing gear is for the NLCA (very old report) ... so this could be a small hint that this NLCA will be the basis for the Mk1A. Still we have to wait till something concrete comes along ... 2018 isn't far!



For a while I thought the same too i.e. fix the airforce landing gear to the NLCA; but HAL never used those words. They've always said that the landing gear will be re-engineered as it is overdone (I think they feel that the airforce landing gear is over weight too). Yep, 2018 is just around the corner!!!


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## Sri

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> For a while I thought the same too i.e. fix the airforce landing gear to the NLCA; but HAL never used those words. They've always said that the landing gear will be re-engineered as it is overdone (I think they feel that the airforce landing gear is over weight too). Yep, 2018 is just around the corner!!!


I Do not think we need to fix NLCA landing gear for MK1A prototype( If NLCA example is being used as template for MK1A) since NLCA is based on Trainer version which has normal landing gear, So I would think that the MK1A Prototype is based on trainer where in the second seat is removed. and yes I believe a little tweak is certainly possible may be they can reduce say 100KG and beyond that I do not think so.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Sri said:


> I Do not think we need to fix NLCA landing gear for MK1A prototype( If NLCA example is being used as template for MK1A) since NLCA is based on Trainer version which has normal landing gear, So I would think that the MK1A Prototype is based on trainer where in the second seat is removed. and yes I believe a little tweak is certainly possible may be they can reduce say 100KG and beyond that I do not think so.


NLCA has a very different landing gear (thunder thighs actually ). Google for images. How else do you think they are able to test ski jump take offs and short landings? NLCA became the basis for the trainer - not the other way around.
I do hope the NLCA will be the basis for Mk1A, as its belly is widened (for the bigger landing gear, which when reduced in size will make way for more fuel!), has LEVCONs and overall better aerodynamics!


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> NLCA has a very different landing gear (thunder thighs actually ). Google for images. How else do you think they are able to test ski jump take offs and short landings? NLCA became the basis for the trainer - not the other way around.
> I do hope the NLCA will be the basis for Mk1A, as its belly is widened (for the bigger landing gear, which when reduced in size will make way for more fuel!), has LEVCONs and overall better aerodynamics!


There won't be any air frame changes in mk1A...only addition of new radar,ew systems and several changes in avionics will be done!
No new foc required for mk1a


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## Sri

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> NLCA has a very different landing gear (thunder thighs actually ). Google for images. How else do you think they are able to test ski jump take offs and short landings? NLCA became the basis for the trainer - not the other way around.
> I do hope the NLCA will be the basis for Mk1A, as its belly is widened (for the bigger landing gear, which when reduced in size will make way for more fuel!), has LEVCONs and overall better aerodynamics!



Let me clear what I was saying
The Current prototype of MK1A which is an airforce version will be based on NLCA right? and NLCA itself is based on LCA Trainer ( I hope this link explains this http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2015/07/cmde-balaji-retd-takes-over-reins-of.html )? so MK1A does not need landing gear re-engineering since the Trainer has the required landing gear already qualified ( Since MK1A will not be doing any Ski jumping  ). the only other additions would be Levcons - again the Levcons were actually designed for deck landing and not for improving maneuverability, so either they remove it completely or reconfigure it for maneuverability. 
The Gist is not much tweaking is needed in the current trainer to be modified to MK1A!!!
Hope this is clear.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Sri said:


> Let me clear what I was saying
> The Current prototype of MK1A which is an airforce version will be based on NLCA right? and NLCA itself is based on LCA Trainer ( I hope this link explains this http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2015/07/cmde-balaji-retd-takes-over-reins-of.html )? so MK1A does not need landing gear re-engineering since the Trainer has the required landing gear already qualified ( Since MK1A will not be doing any Ski jumping  ). the only other additions would be Levcons - again the Levcons were actually designed for deck landing and not for improving maneuverability, so either they remove it completely or reconfigure it for maneuverability.
> The Gist is not much tweaking is needed in the current trainer to be modified to MK1A!!!
> Hope this is clear.


Not sure if you've been following the news since 2015, but HAL has said that it can further reduce the weight of the landing gear (even if the existing one is already 'qualified'). 
Whoever said that Mk1A would be doing ski jumps??? And whoever said that LEVCONs will help with maneuverability??? You invented your own notions to dissent.



egodoc222 said:


> There won't be any air frame changes in mk1A...only addition of new radar,ew systems and several changes in avionics will be done!
> No new foc required for mk1a


No 'new' airframe will be designed right now. But we do have two different airframes for Tejas as of now (the AF mk1 and the NLCA mk1). It's not clear which one will actually be used for Mk1A - even though NLCA Mk1 would make more sense!


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Not sure if you've been following the news since 2015, but HAL has said that it can further reduce the weight of the landing gear (even if the existing one is already 'qualified').
> Whoever said that Mk1A would be doing ski jumps??? And whoever said that LEVCONs will help with maneuverability??? You invented your own notions to dissent.
> 
> 
> No 'new' airframe will be designed right now. But we do have two different airframes for Tejas as of now (the AF mk1 and the NLCA mk1). It's not clear which one will actually be used for Mk1A - even though NLCA Mk1 would make more sense!


It's gonna be mk1 airframe with few weight shaving measures and mid air refuelling pod!
You can forget about nlca...it's not related here!
http://idrw.org/83-tejas-mk1a-orders-kitty-can-hal-deliver-will-ada-catch-tejas-mk2/


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## Vertiti Scrutator

egodoc222 said:


> It's gonna be mk1 airframe with few weight shaving measures and mid air refuelling pod!
> You can forget about nlca...it's not related here!
> http://idrw.org/83-tejas-mk1a-orders-kitty-can-hal-deliver-will-ada-catch-tejas-mk2/


We all know that Mk1A will be based on Mk1 airframe; but the question is which Mk1? AF Mk1 or NLCA Mk1?


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## X_Killer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> We all know that Mk1A will be based on Mk1 airframe; but the question is which Mk1? AF Mk1 or NLCA Mk1?


LCA mk1 is the platform for Mk1A, 
NLCA is another development program.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

X_Killer said:


> LCA mk1 is the platform for Mk1A,
> NLCA is another development program.



Remember that IAF had dumped AF Mk1 platform long back and put their weight behind the Naval variant early in the decade. Much later MOD came back and forced them to accept few frames of the AF Mk1 in IOC2 and FOC configurations (which may actually never see combat ever - but used for training and defensive purposes in the southern part of the country). Not sure why IAF would just go back to accepting 80+ more of the bunked airframes for combat - logic might dictate that they'll ask for the Naval variant (as it has several improvement in terms of aerodynamics, fuel quantity etc.). As someone else said earlier in the conversation, 2018 is just around the corner - we'll know everything for sure 


@Oscar
@The Eagle 
Kudos to the moderators for getting the gunk out of the conversation.


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## The Eagle

Members, avoid off-topic etc posts and stay on topic.

Thanks.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

@The Eagle 
General question: Is there a way for a member to block another member from seeing/replying-to his/her posts? I know a member can choose to ignore (to see) another members posts.

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## GuardianRED

egodoc222 said:


> Of course it's af mk 1. Even 3rd grade kid would know that!!





X_Killer said:


> LCA mk1 is the platform for Mk1A,
> NLCA is another development program.



People Relax! ... why are we pullings hairs even before the Mk1A is rolled out 

As i mentioned in my post so far no official data so far is released on the design only specs from tender docs. I do remember reading that the Mk1A will be based on the NP1/NP2 , (but again nothing is official)

Instead lets just enjoy

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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> I do remember reading that the Mk1A will be based on the NP1/NP2 , (but again nothing is official)


Probably on Trishul 
He did keep hinting at using NLCA for Mk1A - I think he does make sense on this matter. But we'll wait and see! (I just saw him refer to another guy as an 'arsehole'!!)

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## Vertiti Scrutator

d


GuardianRED said:


> People Relax! ... why are we pullings hairs even before the Mk1A is rolled out
> 
> As i mentioned in my post so far no official data so far is released on the design only specs from tender docs. I do remember reading that the Mk1A will be based on the NP1/NP2 , (but again nothing is official)
> 
> Instead lets just enjoy


It should be fairly obvious to even an untrained eye that the NLCA (or the trainer) variant is more aerodynamic (providing body lift in addition to the wing lift). It would almost be criminal to produce 83 of the AF Mk1 whose body provides nothing but drag!!!


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## X_Killer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Remember that IAF had dumped AF Mk1 platform long back and put their weight behind the Naval variant early in the decade. Much later MOD came back and forced them to accept few frames of the AF Mk1 in IOC2 and FOC configurations (which may actually never see combat ever - but used for training and defensive purposes in the southern part of the country). Not sure why IAF would just go back to accepting 80+ more of the bunked airframes for combat - logic might dictate that they'll ask for the Naval variant (as it has several improvement in terms of aerodynamics, fuel quantity etc.). As someone else said earlier in the conversation, 2018 is just around the corner - we'll know everything for sure


As I said MK1A will be based on MK1 with slight changes in fuselage and avionics.
Design process is about to complete and you will get a airframe ready by last quarter of 2018.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

X_Killer said:


> As I said MK1A will be based on MK1 with slight changes in fuselage and avionics.
> Design process is about to complete and you will get a airframe ready by last quarter of 2018.


Most respondents are missing the point and callously throwing Mk1 term. There are TWO Mk1 airframes!! I have already described the differences and the advantages of one over the other in earlier posts.


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## The Eagle

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I know a member can choose to ignore (to see) another members posts.



This is the only way and simply ignore such posts/member. If any posts violates Forum Rules, just report the same without quoting back and move-on. 

Thanks.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Explicit disqualification of Naval LCA Mk2 (earlier statement merely said LCA, causing confusion about the status of Mk2)!!
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-tejas-didnt-fit-the-bill/article17664569.ece

"...What the Navy wants is a deck-based fighter, but the LCA Navy Mk1 doesn’t meet that requirement. Its power-to-weight ratio, the thrust the engine generates [are insufficient] and it’s underpowered for the airframe. *Unfortunately, even the Mk2 variant doesn’t qualify.* That’s why we took this case up to the Defence Ministry."

How is it that the thrust-to-weight ratio of Mk2 became obvious to Navy only recently?? The purported engine thrust (of F414) and the purported weight of Mk2 was supposedly obvious for a long time!!! Did ADA claim recently that they cannot achieve the weight limit for Mk2 that they had set themselves??


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## probable popat

Is the data on crash rate of Tejas plane, a classified info of intelligence agencies?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

probable popat said:


> Is the data on crash rate of Tejas plane, a classified info of intelligence agencies?


??? What crash rate???
Every prototype built is still flying....


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## probable popat

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> ??? What crash rate???
> Every prototype built is still flying....


You don't know about it, right? That's why it's a classified information of intelligence agencies. By definition, classified information means those failures or successes which have been covered up so that general public like you doesn't know about it, at least in immediate future.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

probable popat said:


> You don't know about it, right? That's why it's a classified information of intelligence agencies. By definition, classified information means those failures or successes which have been covered up so that general public like you doesn't know about it, at least in immediate future.


Enlighten us on how you stumbled upon this classified information. And how many such crashes have taken place?
While you're at it, could you also unravel the trove on UFO sightings, aliens in Roswell, Loch Ness monster, Godzilla etc.
Did you get all the attention you were seeking?


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## ranadd

probable popat said:


> You don't know about it, right? That's why it's a classified information of intelligence agencies. By definition, classified information means those failures or successes which have been covered up so that general public like you doesn't know about it, at least in immediate future.



Tejas as a project was never a classified one. The IPR developed for it are classified.

So you are wrong.


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## GORKHALI

probable popat said:


> You don't know about it, right? That's why it's a classified information of intelligence agencies. By definition, classified information means those failures or successes which have been covered up so that general public like you doesn't know about it, at least in immediate future.


Am sure ,you must be high on something potent.Tell me from where you get this stuff.

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## aryadravida_exmuslim

Ignore the member probable popat.
He has been trolling in many threads.

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## probable popat

ranadd said:


> Tejas as a project was never a classified one. The IPR developed for it are classified.
> 
> So you are wrong.


Tejas project was never a classified one. But the flight tests of Tejas are.


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## ranadd

probable popat said:


> Tejas project was never a classified one. But the flight tests of Tejas are.



Flight test results are. All the flights are out of HAL airport in Bangalore. Except for the ones in High altitude. Explain how do you hide a crash? Also, explain how they hide a frame?


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## probable popat

ranadd said:


> Explain how do you hide a crash? Also, explain how they hide a frame?


It can be done very easily. Indian media is owned by Indian intelligence agencies. Not that this practice is immoral. Not only is it legitimate, it is also necessary. Because if desi intelligence agencies don't own Indian media houses, foreign intelligence agencies would buy them.

Now coming to your question of how to hide plane crashes and frames:

If media doesn't report it, nobody will come to know about it. The locals who witness such events would forget it in one or two years. Cover-up of plane crashes is very easy.


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## ranadd

probable popat said:


> It can be done very easily. Indian media is owned by Indian intelligence agencies. Not that this practice is immoral. Not only is it legitimate, it is also necessary. Because if desi intelligence agencies don't own Indian media houses, foreign intelligence agencies would buy them.
> 
> Now coming to your question of how to hide plane crashes and frames:
> 
> If media doesn't report it, nobody will come to know about it. The locals who witness such events would forget it in one or two years. Cover-up of plane crashes is very easy.



Please stop.

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## X_Killer

Vertiti Scor said:


> Most respondents are missing the point and callously throwing Mk1 term. There are TWO Mk1 airframes!! I have already described the differences and the advantages of one over the other in earlier posts.


I'm talking about Tejas MK1 (air force)


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## Vertiti Scrutator

X_Killer said:


> I'm talking about Tejas MK1 (air force)


There's no confirmed report on that. But if you're right, then it would be quite a tragedy!!
IAF had kinda of dumped the air force version. ADA too was just focussed on developing and testing the Naval & Trainer variant, until MOD insisted that ADA 'finish' the air force variant project before focussing 'all' its attention on the newer variant - just so that 'something' was completed. Tejas Mk1A concept came much later - it would be hard for me to digest that HAL or IAF would have ordered 83 frames of something that they didn't like to start with!!

As I said earlier, Mk1 is clearly not aerodynamic; the naval/trainer variant airframe is much more aerodynamic.


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## RISING SUN

http://idrw.org/tejas-foc-points-on-the-verge-of-completion-ada-chief/


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## X_Killer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> There's no confirmed report on that. But if you're right, then it would be quite a tragedy!!
> IAF had kinda of dumped the air force version. ADA too was just focussed on developing and testing the Naval & Trainer variant, until MOD insisted that ADA 'finish' the air force variant project before focussing 'all' its attention on the newer variant - just so that 'something' was completed. Tejas Mk1A concept came much later - it would be hard for me to digest that HAL or IAF would have ordered 83 frames of something that they didn't like to start with!!
> 
> As I said earlier, Mk1 is clearly not aerodynamic; the naval/trainer variant airframe is much more aerodynamic.



I watched a wind tunnel test video which shows that MK1 is more aerodynamic but won't performance Better CARRIER based landing.
Naval MK1 produce more vortex which produce larger drag comparable to AF MK1

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## Vertiti Scrutator

X_Killer said:


> I watched a wind tunnel test video which shows that MK1 is more aerodynamic but won't performance Better CARRIER based landing.
> Naval MK1 produce more vortex which produce larger drag comparable to AF MK1


Mk1's geometry doesn't completely conform with the aerodynamic laws and as such produces a lot of drag!! And Mk1 is also not capable of producing significant lift at low speeds (a requirement for carrier based fighters anywhere).
Yes, NLCA is intentionally designed to produce more vortices at low speeds (with the LEVCONs added to the airframe) - these are good vortices that actually help in producing more lift at low speeds.


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## aftab_s81

How is LCA's payload and range comparable to an F-16?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

aftab_s81 said:


> How is LCA's payload and range comparable to an F-16?


Lower in both respects.


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## Water Car Engineer

*NLCA Mark 2

You can note airframe changes from Mark 1.*

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## Nilgiri

Water Car Engineer said:


> *NLCA Mark 2
> 
> You can note airframe changes from Mark 1.*



Is that a conformal fuel tank that I spot?

BTW is Navy actually interested in mk 2?

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Nilgiri said:


> Is that a conformal fuel tank that I spot?
> 
> BTW is Navy actually interested in mk 2?


Nope there's no conformal fuel tank - that's the body of the aircraft.
As of now, Navy is not - things could always change!!
(I think some of the pics are several years old - not sure if they reflect the most recent iteration)


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Nope there's no conformal fuel tank - that's the body of the aircraft.
> As of now, Navy is not - things could always change!!
> (I think some of the pics are several years old - not sure if they reflect the most recent iteration)



It is the most recent design, it's from Aero India 2017. Pretty fresh at that.










These are the older ones, as you can see, pretty much IAF model with LEVCON, slight nose drop.


vs

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> It is the most recent design, it's from Aero India 2017. Pretty fresh at that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the older ones, as you can see, pretty much IAF model with LEVCON, slight nose drop.
> 
> 
> vs


I wish they could add 2 hardpoints on the wingtips (of Mk2) to carry lightweight WVRAAMs. Normal configuration of Tejas will consume 4 hardpoints just for air/self defense (2xWVRAAMs + 2xBVRAAMs) leaving only 3 for any kind of mission payload. Now given that Tejas has a small internal fuel tank, it might carry one or two external tanks for longer range missions (for likely most of the missions).
That means ONLY ONE or TWO hardpoints left for the mission payload!!!!!!!! This could happen even if the total payload may not reach the max payload weight limit!
If hardpoints on the wingtips is not possible, then perhaps a dual launcher to carry both WVRAAM and BVRAAM could also be considered!!
F16 has 9 hardpoints AND conformal fuel tanks - leaving all 9 hardpoints for weapons carry even on very long missions!!!


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Vertiti Scrutator

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I wish they could add 2 hardpoints on the wingtips (of Mk2) to carry lightweight WVRAAMs. Normal configuration of Tejas will consume 4 hardpoints just for air/self defense (2xWVRAAMs + 2xBVRAAMs) leaving only 3 for any kind of mission payload. Now given that Tejas has a small internal fuel tank, it might carry one or two external tanks for longer range missions (for likely most of the missions).
> That means ONLY ONE or TWO hardpoints left for the mission payload!!!!!!!! This could happen even if the total payload may not reach the max payload weight limit!
> If hardpoints on the wingtips is not possible, then perhaps a dual launcher to carry both WVRAAM and BVRAAM could also be considered!!
> F16 has 9 hardpoints AND conformal fuel tanks - leaving all 9 hardpoints for weapons carry even on very long missions!!!





Water Car Engineer said:


>


These are good developments....


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## kṣamā

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Enlighten us on how you stumbled upon this classified information. And how many such crashes have taken place?
> While you're at it, could you also unravel the trove on UFO sightings, aliens in Roswell, Loch Ness monster, Godzilla etc.
> Did you get all the attention you were seeking?


 You forgot to mention about the ever so elusive "Girlfriend"...


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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *NLCA Mark 2
> 
> You can note airframe changes from Mark 1.*










NLCA Mark 2 New Design






Old Design (but not the oldest)

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## GORKHALI

Few days back was talking to one my friend dad who is working in HAL -Dornier plane dept (Engines and power plant). As per him,Tejas current power plant can generate emergency 95KN afterburner if it need, with loss of engine life .

Also IJT AL 55 is a shitty engine with less than 200 hrs before it need major overall.

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## GuardianRED

GORKHALI said:


> Few days back was talking to one my friend dad who is working in HAL -Dornier plane dept (Engines and power plant). As per him,Tejas current power plant can generate emergency 95KN afterburner if it need, with loss of engine life .
> 
> Also IJT AL 55 is a shitty engine with less than 200 hrs before it need major overall.


Thanks to the above that the IJT is a dead project! 

Any more news on the Tejas other than what we know?


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## GORKHALI

GuardianRED said:


> Thanks to the above that the IJT is a dead project!
> 
> Any more news on the Tejas other than what we know?


IJT is dead ,not exactly.But now engine is a major issue for HAL.


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## Abingdonboy

HAL issues an EOI for the outsourcing of production for the LCA's Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gear Box

Gives an outline to HAL's production plans for the LCA:






- 123 LCAs by 2024-5
- Now it is confirmed (once and for all) there are sperate IOC and FOC batches on order (20 each)
- HAL is ramping up production to meet its total capacity of 16/year (production a/c) and the "1.5" converted kiran hanger) production line (installed capacity is 3/year) will be used exclusively to make test/prototype LCAs (N-LCA Mk.1/2, Mk.1A, LCA MK.2) 
- MK.1A is expected to enter production in 2019-20
- After 2024, HAL will have spare production capacity leaving the door open for more MK.1As being ordered or the Mk.2 entering production

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## X_Killer

Abingdonboy said:


> HAL issues an EOI for the outsourcing of production for the LCA's Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gear Box
> 
> Gives an outline to HAL's production plans for the LCA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 123 LCAs by 2024-5
> - Now it is confirmed (once and for all) there are sperate IOC and FOC batches on order (20 each)
> - HAL is ramping up production to meet its total capacity of 16/year (production a/c) and the "1.5" converted kiran hanger) production line (installed capacity is 3/year) will be used exclusively to make test/prototype LCAs (N-LCA Mk.1/2, Mk.1A, LCA MK.2)
> - MK.1A is expected to enter production in 2019-20
> - After 2024, HAL will have spare production capacity leaving the door open for more MK.1As being ordered or the Mk.2 entering production


Where are remaining 8 IOC jets, only 2 are delivered till now.


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## Sloth 22

X_Kiler said:


> Where are remaining 8 IOC jets, only 2 are delivered till now.



4. 

SP 1 to SP 4 has been delivered.

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## X_Killer

Sloth 22 said:


> 4.
> 
> SP 1 to SP 4 has been delivered.


Source for SP-3 & SP-4 ?


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## Sloth 22

X_Killer said:


> Source for SP-3 & SP-4 ?


The official Facebook page of LCA , which posted their pics of first flight and then handing over to No45.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1325181610909617

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## X_Killer

Sloth 22 said:


> The official Facebook page of LCA , which posted their pics of first flight and then handing over to No45.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1325181610909617


Its still not handed over to IAF.


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## Sloth 22

X_Killer said:


> Its still not handed over to IAF.



The first flight happened in March. And it takes not more than 20 days to clear all tests by Hal. 

Your agreeing or disagreeing doesn't change it.

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## GuardianRED

X_Killer said:


> Its still not handed over to IAF.


Do you have any statement or post saying this? + there are plenty of articles confirming the flight and handing over of SP3 to the IAF


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## X_Killer

Sloth 22 said:


> The first flight happened in March. And it takes not more than 20 days to clear all tests by Hal.
> 
> Your agreeing or disagreeing doesn't change it.


Flying daggers still have only 2 SP Airframes.
Your claims won't change anything.

SP-4 to SP-5 are near to be delivery stage and SP-7 &SP-7 in advanced stage, SP-8 in basic initial stage.

No more speculations please



GuardianRED said:


> Do you have any statement or post saying this? + there are plenty of articles confirming the flight and handing over of SP3 to the IAF



Please share some serious source news about induction not about first flight.


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## Sloth 22

X_Killer said:


> Flying daggers still have only 2 SP Teal frames.
> Your claims won't change anything.
> 
> SP-3 to SP-5 are near to be delivery stage and SP-7 &SP-7 in advanced stage, SP-8 in basic initial stage.
> 
> No more speculations please
> 
> 
> 
> Please share some serious source news about induction not about first flight.



SP5 hast even conducted its first flight , and you are comparing its status to SP3?Tells a lot.

Further its nothing about my claims. 

It's LCA Official page vs your imagination.

" A couple of Evaluation Sorties " doesn't take 2 months 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1323652334395878


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## X_Killer

Sloth 22 said:


> SP5 hast even conducted its first flight , and you are comparing its status to SP3?Tells a lot.
> 
> Further its nothing about my claims.
> 
> It's LCA Official page vs your imagination.
> 
> " A couple of Evaluation Sorties " doesn't take 2 months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1323652334395878


Better to check your facts on ground (if you have any link with agency)
The 2 airframes are still not the part of Sq-45 and all these are in advanced final stage.


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## Abingdonboy

Sloth 22 said:


> SP5 hast even conducted its first flight , and you are comparing its status to SP3?Tells a lot.
> 
> Further its nothing about my claims.
> 
> It's LCA Official page vs your imagination.
> 
> " A couple of Evaluation Sorties " doesn't take 2 months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1323652334395878


SP-3 and 4 have been handed over to the IAF, confirmed.







==================
==================

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## Sloth 22

X_Killer said:


> Better to check your facts on ground (if you have any link with agency)
> The 2 airframes are still not the part of Sq-45 and all these are in advanced final stage.



You have been all the time " claiming " here. 

Why not present a proof for yourself ?


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## X_Killer

Sloth 22 said:


> You have been all the time " claiming " here.
> 
> Why not present a proof for yourself ?


SP-4 was flown by IAF pilots for testing but not handed over to IAF Officially.
Please note the word "Officially".

I've my close source with Sq-45, but I'll not share any Sensitive information, specially, On this portal.
Hope you understand the reason behind it.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

X_Killer said:


> SP-4 was flown by IAF pilots for testing but not handed over to IAF Officially.
> Please note the word "Officially".
> 
> I've my close source with Sq-45, but I'll not share any Sensitive information, specially, On this portal.
> Hope you understand the reason behind it.


__utiya

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## GuardianRED

X_Killer said:


> Flying daggers still have only 2 SP Airframes.
> Your claims won't change anything.
> 
> SP-4 to SP-5 are near to be delivery stage and SP-7 &SP-7 in advanced stage, SP-8 in basic initial stage.
> 
> No more speculations please
> 
> 
> 
> Please share some serious source news about induction not about first flight.


http://idrw.org/tejas-sp3-joins-first-squadron-of-tejas-in-indian-air-force-iaf/

Please see link ... Out going ACM say that SP3 is already handed over

U want a lot of fan fare with fire works when any time they hand over frame?

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## Water Car Engineer



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## X_Killer

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> __utiya


Your choice of words shows your living standards.
Keep it up



GuardianRED said:


> http://idrw.org/tejas-sp3-joins-first-squadron-of-tejas-in-indian-air-force-iaf/
> 
> Please see link ... Out going ACM say that SP3 is already handed over
> 
> U want a lot of fan fare with fire works when any time they hand over frame?


IAF has 3 airframes Officially operational.
There is a Standard procedure for induction & Retirement of any Airframe. ( Fanfare is not essential all time)


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## GuardianRED

X_Killer said:


> Your choice of words shows your living standards.
> Keep it up
> 
> 
> IAF has 3 airframes Officially operational.
> There is a Standard procedure for induction & Retirement of any Airframe. ( Fanfare is not essential all time)


Now u are contradicting yourself

First you say source close to No45 and Insisted that only 2 frames are operational, Even after other members and me told you otherwise.

But, when I posted a source saying way back in Dec 2016 that SP3 is been inducted and so NOW u say there are 3 frames officially???? ... make up your mind!

Meh!!


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## X_Killer

GuardianRED said:


> Now u are contradicting yourself
> 
> First you say source close to No45 and Insisted that only 2 frames are operational, Even after other members and me told you otherwise.
> 
> But, when I posted a source saying way back in Dec 2016 that SP3 is been inducted and so NOW u say there are 3 frames officially???? ... make up your mind!
> 
> Meh!!


 please check out my comment, I already mentioned SP-4 to SP-5.
SP-3 was inducted on 28 Dec'16 but further Airframes are still to be Inducted.
Serially next 2 Airframes are ready for induction but not Inducted.
I think IAF wants to induct further Airframes in batches just to reduce their paperwork.


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## GuardianRED

X_Killer said:


> please check out my comment, I already mentioned SP-4 to SP-5.
> SP-3 was inducted on 28 Dec'16 but further Airframes are still to be Inducted.
> Serially next 2 Airframes are ready for induction but not Inducted.
> I think IAF wants to induct further Airframes in batches just to reduce their paperwork.


Sorry Pal.

as you can See post #2461 ie @Sloth 22 reply to you , which clearly show your old post and then you editing your post #2460 - just to cover yourself and also in the same post - you reply to me -hmmm... shows u need to do some quality research

Its ok, next time ... Good Day

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## tw00tw00

How many Hal Tejas have been produced? Does anybody know?


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## Foo_Fighter

tw00tw00 said:


> How many Hal Tejas have been produced? Does anybody know?


20 including prototypes as on April 2017

http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html


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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862651144773881860Good job Team Tejas!

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## ziaulislam

Is full scale serial production started ? How many will be build this year


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## eldamar

Foo_Fighter said:


> 20 including prototypes as on April 2017
> 
> http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html



He obviously meant those which are in limited/serial production(of which u obviously knew he meant), of which there are only 3 as of 9 May 2017


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## Han Patriot

eldarlmari said:


> He obviously meant those which are in limited/serial production(of which u obviously knew he meant), of which there are only 3 as of 9 May 2017


So basically 3 in service aircraft? How is India going to arm a squadron at this pace. By the time you have enough aircraft, LCA would be obsolete. I understand there is no flight refueling and no BVR missiles?


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## ziaulislam

Foo_Fighter said:


> 20 including prototypes as on April 2017
> 
> http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html


wow 20 already built that great

just looked at the site apaart from LSP, SP are the ones that we count, other never really enter service
even LSP dont make it into service usually


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## surya kiran

ziaulislam said:


> Is full scale serial production started ? How many will be build this year



SP 1 to 3 inducted. SP 4 and 5 delivered, awaiting induction. For production schedule refer below

[URL="https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-164#post-9439223"]HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2][/URL]

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## GuardianRED

Derby Missile in RADAR guided mode fired from LCA Tejas LSP-4. The missile achieved a direct hit during the trial conducted at Kalaikunda, West Bengal.

Copyright: ADA - All Rights Reserved





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Lord Of Gondor

^^
Sweet.
Any info on how many Derby Missiles we have?
(IIRC, these Derby missiles are the Sea Harrier's retirement present to the Tejas)


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## GuardianRED

Lord Of Gondor said:


> ^^
> Sweet.
> Any info on how many Derby Missiles we have?
> (IIRC, these Derby missiles are the Sea Harrier's retirement present to the Tejas)


difficult to say, as reports are adding all missiles including the no. of missile for the SPYDER .

Still an old article 
*Indian navy poised to sign Derby missile deal*

*22 February, 2005*
SOURCE: Flight International

The Indian navy is close to concluding a deal to upgrade its 17 BAE Systems Sea Harrier FRS51 carrierborne fighters, with the integration of Rafael's Derby beyond visual-range air-to-air missile at the heart of the project. The navy expects to shortly sign a $25 million contract for* 20 Derby missiles, plus six practice rounds* and associated equipment in a deal that will represent the Israeli firm's first sale of the radar-guided weapon to India.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/indian-navy-poised-to-sign-derby-missile-deal-194199/

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## cerberus

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Gallery/LCA-Tejas-Fires-Derby-Missile/i-X6KVsjC/A


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862982005008375812

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## GodToons

#Tejas, 
a Light Combat Aircraft successfully demonstrated an Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range missile firing capability in Chandipur


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## Stephen Cohen

Tejas is Now ready for Combat 

The Air to Air Refueling and Gun trials will happen later 

BVRAAM is the most crucial aspect of a Fighter Plane

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## ashok321

http://www.newsnation.in/india-news...ility-in-chandipur-odisha-article-171065.html

*Tejas successfully demonstrates 'Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range missile firing capability' in Chandipur*


New Delhi : 

India's indigenous marvel in the air, Tejas, successfully demonstrated an Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range missile firing capability in Chandipur, Odisha on Friday. 

The LCA Tejas developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, an Indian single-seat, single-jet engine, multi-role light fighter designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency for the Indian Air Force and Navy made its debut in Octover, 2016. 

The lightweight, supersonic, multi-role single seat fighter was inducted in Indian Air Force’s 45 squadron ‘Flying Daggers’ in July last year.

Tejas: Top 10 things to know about India’s indigenous marvel in the air 

1. Developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Tejas is an Indian single-seat, single-jet engine, multi-role light fighter designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency for the Indian Air Force and Navy.

2. HAL and ADA handed over the first two Tejas aircrafts to Indian Air Force on July 1, 2016. 

3. The new jets will make up the 'Flying Daggers' 45, the name of the first squadron of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, which began in the 1980s to replace India's ageing MiG-21 fighters. 

4. Tejas has a pure double delta wing configuration (wing root leading edge sweep 50°, outer wing leading edge sweep 62.5° and trailing edge forward sweep 4°), with no tailplanes or canard and a single dorsal fin. 

5. It integrates technologies such as relaxed static stability, fly-by-wire flight control system, multi-mode radar, integrated digital avionics system, composite material structures, and a flat rated engine. 

6. It is the smallest and lightest in its class of contemporary supersonic combat aircraft.

7. The Tejas is the second supersonic fighter developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after the HAL HF-24 Marut. As of 2016, the Tejas MK1 was in production for the Indian Air Force and the naval version was undergoing flight tests for Indian Navy. 

8. The projected requirement for IAF is 200 single-seat fighters and 20 twin-seat trainers, while the IN expects to operate 40 single-seat fighters.

9. Initially being stationed at Bangalore, the first squadron will be placed at its home base at Sulur, Tamil Nadu.

10. Saturday (Oct 8) is the first public appearance of Tejas in Hindon Air Show, organized on the occasion of 84th foundation day of Indian Air Force.



Just says successful without any evidence.


----------



## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
12-May, 2017 18:23 IST
Tejas Successfully Test Fires Derby Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range Missile 

Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft today successfully demonstrated an Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile firing capability by releasing Derby Air-to-Air BVR missile in RADAR guided mode. The missile launch was performed in Lock ON after Launch mode for a BVR target in the look down mode and the target was destroyed. 

The objective of the test was to assess the Derby integration with aircraft systems on-board Tejas including the aircraft avionics, fire-control radar, launchers and Missile Weapon Delivery System and to verify its performance. 

The test was conducted on a Manoeuvrable Aerial Target at the Interim Test Range (ITR), Chandipur. The sensors at ITR also tracked the target and missile. 

A safe separation was followed by missile guidance towards RADAR acquired target. The flawless launch was demonstrated with all on-board systems performing satisfactorily and the missile scored a direct hit on the target with complete destruction of it. 

The test firing achieved all its planned objectives. The Derby firing is a major step towards clearing BVR capabilities on LCA aircraft for FOC.

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## cerberus

Stephen Cohen said:


> Tejas is Now ready for Combat
> 
> The Air to Air Refueling and Gun trials will happen later
> 
> BVRAAM is the most crucial aspect of a Fighter Plane


R-73E HOBS missile With HMDS Done 
Derby BVRAAM Trial done 
Griffin LGB Trial done 
Smart Bombs Trial done 
26 AOA Achieved


Congrats LCA is Now Ready for Combat 

Congrats SP-6 on way for flying in few days.This year HAL will Manufacture 8 LCA aircraft 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/863021295251763200


eldarlmari said:


> He obviously meant those which are in limited/serial production(of which u obviously knew he meant), of which there are only 3 as of 9 May 2017


Wrong Info SP-6 on its Way for flying in few days 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/863021295251763200

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## el nino

India will have first 20 Tejas in service fully rrady with HMD HOBS 7 Derby bvr missles by 2018 August .

The Second 20 by 2020 August

Worldwide induction is only ramped up after all intial trials done . that is common sense


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## Sliver

ashok321 said:


> India's indigenous *marvel in the air*


 you guys need to tone down a bit... I mean.. good job and all.. but seriously.. marvel in the air?

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## nang2

cerberus said:


> R-73E HOBS missile With HMDS Done
> Derby BVRAAM Trial done
> Griffin LGB Trial done
> Smart Bombs Trial done
> 26 AOA Achieved
> 
> 
> Congrats LCA is Now Ready for Combat
> 
> Congrats SP-6 on way for flying in few days.This year HAL will Manufacture 8 LCA aircraft
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/863021295251763200
> 
> Wrong Info SP-6 on its Way for flying in few days
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/863021295251763200


congratulations. now it is more like a true squadron.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Foo_Fighter

eldarlmari said:


> He obviously meant those which are in limited/serial production(of which u obviously knew he meant), of which there are only 3 as of 9 May 2017


Then he should have asked "How many Serial productions for induction" rather than "Is full-scale serial production started? How many will be build this year"... anyways from now on I will try to read between the lines


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## indiatester

Sliver said:


> you guys need to tone down a bit... I mean.. good job and all.. but seriously.. marvel in the air?


Makes for dull writing man. As it is, the sales of newspapers are down. Do you want to further kill the sales with dry "news"


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## X_Killer

The Derby bvraam test firing takes Tejas one step closer to the FOC. Aerial gun firing and IFR trials are the next in line before FOC is achieved. Dry contact trials with an IL-78M aerial tanker are scheduled for this month .
Earlier schedules called for FOC to be achieved by June . However now FOC is planned to be achieved by December of this year. The postponement was made to ensure that the crucial tests arent rushed through and the finer details aren't overlooked.
However FOC Sop ( Standard of preparation )will be handed over to HAL in June. What this means is that HAL can start manufacturing the SP series of ac in their final operational clearance configuration from this June onwards.
Currently SP-5 is in the equipping stage . It's being manufactured in the 2nd Tejas line,the line which has been set up in the Kiran hangars. 
SP-6 is in power on stage at present. It will have its first flight in June and will be delivered to the IAF before SP-5.

























Production Rate is slow due to FOC process. But will be scaled up as soon as FOC will be done.
HAL already received fully furnished components for 9 Aircrafts at assembly line warehouse.

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## GuardianRED

Experienced IAF Test Pilot getting ready prior to the Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile Firing Test.
The missile fired from Tejas LSP-04 hit it's target with pinpoint precision.
The flawless launch was demonstrated with all on-board systems performing satisfactorily and the missile scored a direct hit on the target with complete destruction of it.

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## Lord Of Gondor

GuardianRED said:


> View attachment 396539
> Experienced IAF Test Pilot getting ready prior to the Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile Firing Test.
> The missile fired from Tejas LSP-04 hit it's target with pinpoint precision.
> The flawless launch was demonstrated with all on-board systems performing satisfactorily and the missile scored a direct hit on the target with complete destruction of it.


Thanks for the Image but the second one is not visible.
And can anyone name the Missiles on the Tejas?
I see a Derby and an R73 Training round(?)....what is she carrying under the Left Wing,next to the R73?
Edit: Looks like an adapter for the Derby. Need to get my eyes checked

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## hacker J

ziaulislam said:


> wow 20 already built that great
> 
> just looked at the site apaart from LSP, SP are the ones that we count, other never really enter service
> even LSP dont make it into service usually



Yes they don't without upgrade.


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## GuardianRED

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Thanks for the Image but the second one is not visible.
> And can anyone name the Missiles on the Tejas?
> I see a Derby and an R73 Training round(?)....what is she carrying under the Left Wing,next to the R73?


Sorry the Second image is the same from FB, but not showing here , hence had to save and upload the same image as a file

The middle pylon on the port wing is just carrying a launcher - no missile. Possible to see how the frame behaves in terms of balance load



GuardianRED said:


> Sorry the Second image is the same from FB, but not showing here , hence had to save and upload the same image as a file
> 
> The middle pylon on the port wing is just carrying a launcher - no missile. Possible to see how the frame behaves in terms of balance load


Sorry need to edit myself with the technical terms . A Pylon is an equipment on the wing of an aircraft used for carrying an engine, weapon, fuel tank, or other load. Thus can be also called a Launcher.

So the best term in this case to use is HARD POINT ... So the Middile Hard point on the port wing is just the launcher (looks like the same for the Derby on the starboard wing)


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## RPK

The Helmet mounted display contains many features like symbologies which includes Missile status data, seeker acquisition envelope and critical flight data such as load factor, speed, AoA, altitude, Mach number and horizon too. Cueing boxes produced from radar and RWR/ESM data can be used to mark the position of a target at the limits of visual range.

With a helmet mounted sight the pilot just has to look at the target to designateit and launch a missile for potent ‘First Sight First Shot’ capability.

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## GuardianRED

From the archives of May 2014..

Presenting an image of KH-2014 (LSP-4) flying with a 725 Ltr Centerline jettisionable drop tank. The three drop tank configuration will add some more range and reach.

Jai Hind..

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## Glorino

LCA TEJAS Delta wing plane is becoming a formidable plane. It is now ready to be inducted in number in the 2018 -2020 period. Though the pace of induction is slow- there has been a qualitative improvement over the years. 
GREAT GOING

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## GuardianRED

KH-2018 (LSP-8) landing back after a test sortie with the IFR. 
Slowly but steadily, these tests will culminate in dry and wet engagement to the feeder machine.

Jai Hind..

#LCA #Tejas_LCA #TejasOfficialArchive #NFTC #ADA

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## eldamar

GuardianRED said:


> View attachment 404375
> 
> KH-2018 (LSP-8) landing back after a test sortie with the IFR.
> Slowly but steadily, these tests will culminate in dry and wet engagement to the feeder machine.
> 
> Jai Hind..
> 
> #LCA #Tejas_LCA #TejasOfficialArchive #NFTC #ADA



that probe infront of the canopy makes the plane look ugly


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## sathya

eldarlmari said:


> that probe infront of the canopy makes the plane look ugly



Functionally it's has more visibility and at safe distance..

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879747671367442432

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## Abingdonboy

Naval LCA NP-2:

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## ranadd

Beautiful bird. Sad it has no takers.


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## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879747671367442432


Really, that will be good news because 1A is really great configuration. I feel IAF has pushed DRDO and finally, they are meeting all the requirement. Success is very near.


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## Han Patriot

What about AESA radar and refueling probes? Are these done yet?


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## proud_indian

Han Patriot said:


> What about AESA radar and refueling probes? Are these done yet?



Refueling probes has been integrated and AESA radar will be introduced with MK-1A configuration.

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## Han Patriot

proud_indian said:


> Refueling probes has been integrated and AESA radar will be introduced with MK-1A configuration.


Sorry, let me recap based on Wiki.

Mark 1 = no inflight refuel and no AESA + BVRAAM 
Mark 1A = inflight refuel and AESA + BVRAAM
Mark 2 = ?

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## Lord Of Gondor

Han Patriot said:


> So now MK-1 can fire bvraam and do inflight refueling. MK-1A will just be addition of AESAs? Am I correct?


Plus Avionics upgrade, LRU repositioning for greater ease of maintenance, weight reduction and EW Systems.


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## amardeep mishra

Han Patriot said:


> Sorry, let me recap based on Wiki.
> 
> Mark 1 = no inflight refuel and no AESA + BVRAAM
> Mark 1A = inflight refuel and AESA + BVRAAM
> Mark 2 = ?


Hi @Han Patriot 
You're slightly off mark here, 
Mark-1(IOC): No inflight refueling/No AESA/No BVR- 20 ordered
Mark-1(FOC): Inflight Refueling/Derby BVR(Derby-ER is also slated to come), However no AESA-40 ordered(I am not sure about the number though)
Mark-1A: Advanced AESA+EW suite+ various other upgrades-83 ordered.
Mark-2: Mark-1A+Uprated engine in 90+kN thrust range(Which basically results in an entirely different plane). Changing of powerplant is the most difficult of all if the power plant happens to be in entirely different category and structural shape and size. It is Mark-1A and Mark-2 that IAF needs in huge numbers.

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## Han Patriot

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @Han Patriot
> You're slightly off mark here,
> Mark-1(IOC): No inflight refueling/No AESA/No BVR- 20 ordered
> Mark-1(FOC): Inflight Refueling/Derby BVR(Derby-ER is also slated to come), However no AESA-40 ordered(I am not sure about the number though)
> Mark-1A: Advanced AESA+EW suite+ various other upgrades-83 ordered.
> Mark-2: Mark-1A+Uprated engine in 90+kN thrust range(Which basically results in an entirely different plane). Changing of powerplant is the most difficult of all if the power plant happens to be in entirely different category and structural shape and size. It is Mark-1A and Mark-2 that IAF needs in huge numbers.


So now they are fulfilling the orders for the Mark-1 IOC?


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## proud_indian

Han Patriot said:


> So now they are fulfilling the orders for the Mark-1 IOC?


yes


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## Abingdonboy

ranadd said:


> Beautiful bird. Sad it has no takers.


N-LCA was always meant to be a tech demonstrator ONLY and was never meant to be ordered by anyone, the IN is commited to the N-LCA Mk.2.



Han Patriot said:


> Mark 1 = no inflight refuel and no AESA + BVRAAM


All Mk.1s will have BVRAAM (Derby/Mk.3/ER), the FOC MK.1s will have an IFR probe:








Han Patriot said:


> Mark 1A = inflight refuel and AESA + BVRAAM


Yes plus a SPJ pod and improved LRU placement to ease maintainence and boost availability rates across the fleet.



Han Patriot said:


> Mark 2 = ?


A larger platform (AFAIK an extra metre in length and something around 10-20% greater wing area) powered by a more powerful engine (F414) with new avionics and general imrovements (retractable IFR probe, aerodynamic improvements, OBOGS etc) allowing for more range, payload and improved capabilities.













The Mk.2 project currently has two development teams working in parallel, one for the navy and one for the airforce. 


amardeep mishra said:


> Mark-1(FOC): Inflight Refueling/Derby BVR(Derby-ER is also slated to come), However no AESA-40 ordered(I am not sure about the number though)


The news above indicates the MK.1 FOC (of which 20, not 40 have been ordered) may in fact have AESA radars (same as MK.1A) afterall.


MK.1 IOC (20 ordered)- deliveries ongoing
Mk.1 FOC (20 ordered)- deliveries commencing 2018
Mk.1A (83 ordered)- deliveries commencing 2019-20
----------------------
(123 units on order right now)

Mk.2 (no confirmation of projected requirements but expected to be >120 units)

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## Abingdonboy

Safran is recruiting a M88 / Kaveri Military Engine Performance Engineer.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=https://www.safran-group.com/talents/Ouroffers/offer/50278&sandbox=1

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## GuardianRED

Credit to @X_Killer 
30 Jun 2017..
On the final day of the first year of Sqn Formation day, HAL, LCA Production Group had the first flight of LCA SP-6 (LA-5006).
After the initial flights, SP-6 will be the fifth member of Flying Daggers..

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## Rajaraja Chola

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @Han Patriot
> You're slightly off mark here,
> Mark-1(IOC): No inflight refueling/No AESA/No BVR- 20 ordered
> Mark-1(FOC): Inflight Refueling/Derby BVR(Derby-ER is also slated to come), However no AESA-40 ordered(I am not sure about the number though)
> Mark-1A: Advanced AESA+EW suite+ various other upgrades-83 ordered.
> Mark-2: Mark-1A+Uprated engine in 90+kN thrust range(Which basically results in an entirely different plane). Changing of powerplant is the most difficult of all if the power plant happens to be in entirely different category and structural shape and size. It is Mark-1A and Mark-2 that IAF needs in huge numbers.



Are u sure Mark 1 IOC have no BVR? It has an MMR Radar and tested various BVR missiles.


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## DarX

GuardianRED said:


> Credit to @X_Killer
> 30 Jun 2017..
> On the final day of the first year of Sqn Formation day, HAL, LCA Production Group had the first flight of LCA SP-6 (LA-5006).
> After the initial flights, SP-6 will be the fifth member of Flying Daggers..



Still seems like it will need another 10 years to mature as a platform.


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## Trisonics

DarX said:


> Still seems like it will need another 10 years to mature as a platform.


Wow you have some insane powers of prediction by just viewing a picture. Can you explain why 10 years and tell us more on why it's not mature? or you may just say "I'm jealous" and we being a very generous lot, will let you go..

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## DarX

Trisonics said:


> Wow you have some insane powers of prediction by just viewing a picture. Can you explain why 10 years and tell us more on why it's not mature? or you may just say "I'm jealous" and we being a very generous lot, will let you go..



Do you know at what stage it is currently? It has yet to start its gun firing trials and gain its FOC. If Hindustan took 40 years to get to this stage, it is by no means a stretch to say that they will take another 10 years to iron out all the bugs.

But I will say that you lot are jealous. There is no doubt about that.


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## X_Killer

DarX said:


> Do you know at what stage it is currently? It has yet to start its gun firing trials and gain its FOC. If Hindustan took 40 years to get to this stage, it is by no means a stretch to say that they will take another 10 years to iron out all the bugs.
> 
> But I will say that you lot are jealous. There is no doubt about that.


I don't know why you guys call 40years but I'll not clarify timeline again because telling the facts to dumbs and blinds hv no meaning.

Anyways, I can say jf-17 still have to practice LGBs , HMD, increment of carbon fibre etc. 
Isn't it require more than a decade to expertise on your own (not on china).
Anyways, enjoy your day

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## DarX

vikata said:


> just ask him whats pakistan contribution to jf 17
> by that logic su 30 should be indian plane
> no ancillary industries ,no r&d ,no patent nothing
> and they are commenting on others platform



Why are you asking him to put forward questions? Are you scared?



X_Killer said:


> I don't know why you guys call 40years but I'll not clarify timeline again because telling the facts to dumbs and blinds hv no meaning.
> 
> Anyways, I can say jf-17 still have to practice LGBs , HMD, increment of carbon fibre etc.
> Isn't it require more than a decade to expertise on your own (not on china).
> Anyways, enjoy your day



The project was initiated in 1975 and so it has been more than 40 years of development which resulted in the prototype of the LCA Tejas. But if you want to deny or rewrite your own history as is common practice in Hindustan, we can't really stop you from fooling yourself.

The fact remains that the JF-17, in its current form, is more capable than the PAF legacy fighters and so is effectively replacing them. It has achieved its program objective. 

The LCA Tejas still remains in development and has failed to replace the IAF's old fighters. This has led to the IAF now looking to waste another $20 billion for a second foreign fighter to do what its great INDIGENOUS fighter project was supposed to do.


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## DarX

vikata said:


> whats ur contribution
> any design,patent,any data
> does pac even have wind tunnel



What is the status of your LCA tejas?
Replaced the Mig-21? Has FOC? Fired its gun?
Does HAL even have literate management?


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## vikata

DarX said:


> What is the status of your LCA tejas?
> Replaced the Mig-21? Has FOC? Fired its gun?
> Does HAL even have literate management?


i asked u a simple question but now i am thinking u are not literate enough to understand difference between a screw driver assembly plane , and a developing/maturing technology
u guys have no metallurgical know how pathetic steel capacity no industrial base and will still keep on bragging 
enough of ur trolling now please spare the thread which is meant keep others updated about development
but alas u dont know what is development


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## DarX

vikata said:


> i asked u a simple question but now i am thinking u are not literate enough to understand difference between a screw driver assembly plane , and a developing/maturing technology
> u guys have no metallurgical know how pathetic steel capacity no industrial base and will still keep on bragging
> enough of ur trolling now please spare the thread which is meant keep others updated about development
> but alas u dont know what is development



I asked you a simple question in return but since you have no shame, you dodged it like you Hindustanis always do.

The main question is what has Hindustan achieved?? What is the status of the great Tejas? It remains under testing while the IAF flies its old Mig-21. Shameless Indians can't explain that.


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## Han Patriot

DarX said:


> Do you know at what stage it is currently? It has yet to start its gun firing trials and gain its FOC. If Hindustan took 40 years to get to this stage, it is by no means a stretch to say that they will take another 10 years to iron out all the bugs.
> 
> But I will say that you lot are jealous. There is no doubt about that.


Are you serious? They haven't even start firing guns?


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> Why are you asking him to put forward questions? Are you scared?
> 
> 
> 
> The project was initiated in 1975 and so it has been more than 40 years of development which resulted in the prototype of the LCA Tejas. But if you want to deny or rewrite your own history as is common practice in Hindustan, we can't really stop you from fooling yourself.
> 
> The fact remains that the JF-17, in its current form, is more capable than the PAF legacy fighters and so is effectively replacing them. It has achieved its program objective.
> 
> The LCA Tejas still remains in development and has failed to replace the IAF's old fighters. This has led to the IAF now looking to waste another $20 billion for a second foreign fighter to do what its great INDIGENOUS fighter project was supposed to do.


you must be smoking something really good quality dear 

anyway some facts 

tejas projeact was thought of soon after limitations of mig21 were learned in 1971 war and its sucessor was planned but we were a very poor nation then so for next 15 years no one even botherred to see into it then in 1990 a study was relaunched and only in 1993 the first ammount of some 453crore or someithing was sanctioned for it and its first prtotype flew in 2001 and since then some 19 prtotypes in 4 formats have been built and have completed more than 3600+ flying hours without any air mishap till date and till date A TOTAL OF APPROX NOT MORE THAT 2.3 BILLION US DOLLARS HAVE BEEN PUT IN ENTIRE LCA TEJAS PROJECT WHICH INCLUEDS PURCHASE OF ALL KINDS OF SPECIAL TOOLINGS, RIGS, SOFTWARES , MONEY GIVEN TO INTERNATION PARTNERS FOR COUNSELTENCY , FOR PARTS , RADARS , AVIONICS , ENGINES , WEAPONS & MISSILES & BOMBS, PODS AND TELLEMATARRY EQUPMENTS ND HANESSES AND ALL OTHER ALLIED PRODUCTS AND MONEY SPEND ONITS R&D AND LABS AND ALLIED INFRA (FUEL & SALARRY FOR SIENTISTS AND PILOTS ARE EXTRA) now you tell me which developed nation did acomplish so much and made whole aircraft manufactruing isndurty and ecosystem around a simple and compact fighter jet in such a small budget 

now what does Tehas as a fughter has that JF17 does not 

1. tejas has 45% of its total body weight & 95%+ in skin area made of carbon composites which makes it very light and very less mantainence oriented and veru less visible to radar waves as compared to all metal body frame of JF17 

2. tejas has 4 channel digital fly by wire in 3 axis while JF17 has only in two and that too anaolog go check yopur facts how it helps a fighter  

3. tejas has been intigrated and tested with LITENING 3 G3 laser designation pod and DASH 3 HMDS & HUD and Python5 WVR for great very HOBS capability that JF17 does not has and is intigrated and tested with paveway , griffin and spike family of PGMs , LGBs and SDBs and glide bombs 

4. teajs is already tested with EL-2032 MMR with Derby & I Derby ER BVR and OBOGS and IFR probe and mayave type EW+ECM sysytem and is having 1/3rd RCS value that of M2K (M2K rcs is 3msq in clean configuration)

rest you speculate yourelf

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## DarX

Han Patriot said:


> Are you serious? They haven't even start firing guns?



No man. The only gun that fires in Hindustan is their mouths.



GURU DUTT said:


> you must be smoking something really good quality dear
> 
> anyway some facts
> 
> tejas projeact was thought of soon after limitations of mig21 were learned in 1971 war and its sucessor was planned but we were a very poor nation then so for next 15 years no one even botherred to see into it then in 1990 a study was relaunched and only in 1993 the first ammount of some 453crore or someithing was sanctioned for it and its first prtotype flew in 2001 and since then some 19 prtotypes in 4 formats have been built and have completed more than 3600+ flying hours without any air mishap till date and till date A TOTAL OF APPROX NOT MORE THAT 2.3 BILLION US DOLLARS HAVE BEEN PUT IN ENTIRE LCA TEJAS PROJECT WHICH INCLUEDS PURCHASE OF ALL KINDS OF SPECIAL TOOLINGS, RIGS, SOFTWARES , MONEY GIVEN TO INTERNATION PARTNERS FOR COUNSELTENCY , FOR PARTS , RADARS , AVIONICS , ENGINES , WEAPONS & MISSILES & BOMBS, PODS AND TELLEMATARRY EQUPMENTS ND HANESSES AND ALL OTHER ALLIED PRODUCTS AND MONEY SPEND ONITS R&D AND LABS AND ALLIED INFRA (FUEL & SALARRY FOR SIENTISTS AND PILOTS ARE EXTRA) now you tell me which developed nation did acomplish so much and made whole aircraft manufactruing isndurty and ecosystem around a simple and compact fighter jet in such a small budget
> 
> now what does Tehas as a fughter has that JF17 does not
> 
> 1. tejas has 45% of its total body weight & 95%+ in skin area made of carbon composites which makes it very light and very less mantainence oriented and veru less visible to radar waves as compared to all metal body frame of JF17
> 
> 2. tejas has 4 channel digital fly by wire in 3 axis while JF17 has only in two and that too anaolog go check yopur facts how it helps a fighter
> 
> 3. tejas has been intigrated and tested with LITENING 3 G3 laser designation pod and DASH 3 HMDS & HUD and Python5 WVR for great very HOBS capability that JF17 does not has and is intigrated and tested with paveway , griffin and spike family of PGMs , LGBs and SDBs and glide bombs
> 
> 4. teajs is already tested with EL-2032 MMR with Derby & I Derby ER BVR and OBOGS and IFR probe and mayave type EW+ECM sysytem and is having 1/3rd RCS value that of M2K (M2K rcs is 3msq in clean configuration)
> 
> rest you speculate yourelf



You should really wake up now!

Wow great achievements. Now that really makes up for the IAF still flying Mig-21s, the LCA tejas still at least a decade off from being inducted in sufficient numbers, and the IAF having to spend another $20 billion to import a replacement fighter in its place. Good work!


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> No man. The only gun that fires in Hindustan is their mouths.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow great achievements. Now that really makes up for the IAF still flying Mig-21s, the LCA tejas still at least a decade off from being inducted in sufficient numbers, and the IAF having to spend another $20 billion to import a replacement fighter in its place. Good work!


well guess what IAF has already orderred 40 LCA MK1 nad 83 MK1a (with AESA"we already have tested indian LRDE made UTTAM GaA based AESA & in deal with israelies to get EL 2052 AESA" and other imprrovements in weight reduction and with OBOGS & IFR and new lighter but stiffer landing gear)

and when MK2 version comes 120 more to be orderred as for IN it has just stopped LCA from aircraft carrier roles due to troublesome landing gear but has already orderred 40 for shore defnce so get your facts right kid 

now we are buying F16blk 70 to fill in numbers and to prepair a two front war and tejas are for replacement of Mig21s only and that means for point defnce meeaning homeland security only not for SEAD/DEAD or precission bombings or attacking enemy postions for that role MKI , jaguars , Mig29, M2K , rafale and F16 & FGFA in future will do the Jib but tejas will never do that job hope you get it this time




LCA AF MK2
***************
The MK2 is an improvement over LCA AF Mk1 with higher thrust engine. This aircraft will have improved survivability, maintainability and obsolescence mitigation. Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Unified Electronic warfare Suite (UEWS) and On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) are some of the state of the art technologies planned to be integrated. The cockpit design has been improved with bigger size, smart Multi function Displays (MFD) and smart Head Up Display (HUD).

The scope of FSED Phase 3 as per project sanction is as follows:-
Design, develop and build two aircraft with

New Engine
Necessary changes in the structure and systems to integrate the new engine
Weight reduction to improve performance
Unified EW Suite (UEWS)
Development of new DFCC, its test facilities and integration
Upgrade/modification/maintenance of test facilities.

Extensive studies were carried out at ADA to make suitable changes in LCA AF Mk2 to address the maintainability issues observed in LCA AF Mk1, improve the systems like fuel, landing gear and brakes, electrical, armament etc. Also a number of new/upgraded systems have been incorporated to make the aircraft more contemporary. As a result, the scope for FSED Phase 3 increased substantially due to extensive changes incorporated to have an improved aircraft with improved performance in all aspects. Important new/ upgrades of systems are listed below:

Introduction of 500mm plug in fuselage
Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS)
New Cockpit with larger size smart displays
One Mission Management and Display Computer (MMDC) in place of two Open Architecture Computers
HMDS based on optical sensor
Smart HUD with improved Field of Vision
Higher power Jet Fuel Starter
Servo controlled Airbrake under the command of DFCC control
Pressurized Fuel System
Unified Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC) in place of individual Pylon Interface Boxes
Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT)
Indigenous Actuators
NVG(Night vision Goggle) compatible lighting
Activities carried out

Presently, the configuration of LCA AF Mk2 has been frozen with all the design improvements and Preliminary Design Review (PDR) has been carried out in June 2014 and detail design is in progress. GE-F414 engine was selected as the higher thrust engine for LCA AF Mk2 and a contract was signed with M/s GE, USA in September 2012. The CDR of alternate engine has been completed. Engine is undergoing final qualification and lifting evaluation tests.

Aerodynamics
******************
A number of aerodynamics improvements have been carried out to reduce drag and improve performance:
Drag reduction studies have been completed. Canopy reshaping, outer cowl modification, actuator fairing extension and supersonic pylons have resulted in approx 20 counts (8%) drag reduction in supersonic regimes.
Wind Tunnel studies have been completed.
Aero loads computations have been completed

Airframe
***********
Three doors AAID finalized.
BMI material developed for high temperature applications.
Composite pipelines developed for ECS.
Spine widened for providing accessibility and maintainability.
Pilot step provided for pilot's emergency egress.
SPS bay redesigned to improve maintainability.

Engine
*********
Aircraft engine bay ventilation scheme has been finalised.
Engine-Airframe Interface Control Diagram (ICD) has been prepared.
Aircraft Qualification Tests have been completed. ASMET (Air c r a ft Simulated Mission Endurance Tests) results are under discussion.
New JFS with higher torque GTSU- 135 is under development.

Mechanical Systems
**************************
Layouts preparation and detail design is in progress.
Feasibility to increase wheel size for increasing the capacity of brake system are in progress.
Trials to offload one hydraulic system to reduce the load on JFS during starting are going on. This will help in cold weather high altitude operations.
Liquid Cooling System configurations, separate for AESA and UEWS have been finalised.
Studies to shift the Air to Air refueling probe to right are in progress to obviate probe coming in Field of View of Head Up Display (HUD).

Integrated Flight Control System
*****************************************
DFCC: CDR completed Realization st of QT unit by 31 Dec 2016.
Indigenous Actuators: Primary Actuators QT completed, Iron Bird testing completed. Being evaluated on LCA Mk1. Secondary Actuators under development.

Avionics
**********
Avionics architecture has been finalized.
New cockpit with bigger size (6”x8”) displays has been designed.
Development of new LRUs is in progress.
Avionics will be ready by Dec 2018.
Configuration of Active Phased Array based Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) finalised.
The number of elements that can be incorporated with the existing geometry for the Antenna Array unit of AESA Radar has been finalised and performance parameters like range and Effective Radiated Power (ERP) computed.
Night Vision Goggl e (NVG) compatible L E D lights for Navigation lights and Taxi / Landing Lights are being developed. Engineering models have been developed. Performance is being evaluated.
Conformal antenna developed for V/UHF.

Under development Technologies for LCA
*****************************************************
Development of critical advanced technologies for indigenous equipments and systems is in progress. Project sanctions for development of technologies have been given to identified work centers. The following project s has been completed;

DALIA actuators
Indigenous development of high strength titanium alloy Ti-10
Development of Friction Stir Waelding Technology for Aircraft Structures
Aerodynamic studies of performance of LCA wing with Vortex Generators
LCF data generation testing on 15-5 PH steel
Digital Communication Scheme for Tejas

On-going Projects
***********************
The following major projects have been initiated and are in progress

Development of V/UHF Conformal Antenna
Development of Digital Audio Control System (DACS)
Digital Liquid Oxygen (LOX) Indicators/ Transmitters
Development of improved RAM
Fatigue data generation on AA 7010 Aluminium alloy
Development of Zn-Ni plating as an alternate to cadmium plating
Development of high temperature beta titanium alloy DMR 700
Development of On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS)
Development of Cabin Shut Off Valve (CBSOV) of ECS,
Development of AMAGB Bearings
Advanced Subminiature Telemetry System,
Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) Mark 2
Development of MEMS based Pressure Transducers and temperature sensors for Hydraulics system.(Ps all this data shown is of late 2014 rest specualte yourself )

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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> well guess what IAF has already orderred 40 LCA MK1 nad 83 MK1a (with AESA"we already have tested indian LRDE made UTTAM GaA based AESA & in deal with israelies to get EL 2052 AESA" and other imprrovements in weight reduction and with OBOGS & IFR and new lighter but stiffer landing gear)
> 
> and when MK2 version comes 120 more to be orderred as for IN it has just stopped LCA from aircraft carrier roles due to troublesome landing gear but has already orderred 40 for shore defnce so get your facts right kid
> 
> now we are buying F16blk 70 to fill in numbers and to prepair a two front war and tejas are for replacement of Mig21s only and that means for point defnce meeaning homeland security only not for SEAD/DEAD or precission bombings or attacking enemy postions for that role MKI , jaguars , Mig29, M2K , rafale and F16 & FGFA in future will do the Jib but tejas will never do that job hope you get it this time
> View attachment 407567
> 
> LCA AF MK2
> ***************
> The MK2 is an improvement over LCA AF Mk1 with higher thrust engine. This aircraft will have improved survivability, maintainability and obsolescence mitigation. Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Unified Electronic warfare Suite (UEWS) and On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) are some of the state of the art technologies planned to be integrated. The cockpit design has been improved with bigger size, smart Multi function Displays (MFD) and smart Head Up Display (HUD).
> 
> The scope of FSED Phase 3 as per project sanction is as follows:-
> Design, develop and build two aircraft with
> 
> New Engine
> Necessary changes in the structure and systems to integrate the new engine
> Weight reduction to improve performance
> Unified EW Suite (UEWS)
> Development of new DFCC, its test facilities and integration
> Upgrade/modification/maintenance of test facilities.
> 
> Extensive studies were carried out at ADA to make suitable changes in LCA AF Mk2 to address the maintainability issues observed in LCA AF Mk1, improve the systems like fuel, landing gear and brakes, electrical, armament etc. Also a number of new/upgraded systems have been incorporated to make the aircraft more contemporary. As a result, the scope for FSED Phase 3 increased substantially due to extensive changes incorporated to have an improved aircraft with improved performance in all aspects. Important new/ upgrades of systems are listed below:
> 
> Introduction of 500mm plug in fuselage
> Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
> On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS)
> New Cockpit with larger size smart displays
> One Mission Management and Display Computer (MMDC) in place of two Open Architecture Computers
> HMDS based on optical sensor
> Smart HUD with improved Field of Vision
> Higher power Jet Fuel Starter
> Servo controlled Airbrake under the command of DFCC control
> Pressurized Fuel System
> Unified Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC) in place of individual Pylon Interface Boxes
> Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT)
> Indigenous Actuators
> NVG(Night vision Goggle) compatible lighting
> Activities carried out
> 
> Presently, the configuration of LCA AF Mk2 has been frozen with all the design improvements and Preliminary Design Review (PDR) has been carried out in June 2014 and detail design is in progress. GE-F414 engine was selected as the higher thrust engine for LCA AF Mk2 and a contract was signed with M/s GE, USA in September 2012. The CDR of alternate engine has been completed. Engine is undergoing final qualification and lifting evaluation tests.
> 
> Aerodynamics
> ******************
> A number of aerodynamics improvements have been carried out to reduce drag and improve performance:
> Drag reduction studies have been completed. Canopy reshaping, outer cowl modification, actuator fairing extension and supersonic pylons have resulted in approx 20 counts (8%) drag reduction in supersonic regimes.
> Wind Tunnel studies have been completed.
> Aero loads computations have been completed
> 
> Airframe
> ***********
> Three doors AAID finalized.
> BMI material developed for high temperature applications.
> Composite pipelines developed for ECS.
> Spine widened for providing accessibility and maintainability.
> Pilot step provided for pilot's emergency egress.
> SPS bay redesigned to improve maintainability.
> 
> Engine
> *********
> Aircraft engine bay ventilation scheme has been finalised.
> Engine-Airframe Interface Control Diagram (ICD) has been prepared.
> Aircraft Qualification Tests have been completed. ASMET (Air c r a ft Simulated Mission Endurance Tests) results are under discussion.
> New JFS with higher torque GTSU- 135 is under development.
> 
> Mechanical Systems
> **************************
> Layouts preparation and detail design is in progress.
> Feasibility to increase wheel size for increasing the capacity of brake system are in progress.
> Trials to offload one hydraulic system to reduce the load on JFS during starting are going on. This will help in cold weather high altitude operations.
> Liquid Cooling System configurations, separate for AESA and UEWS have been finalised.
> Studies to shift the Air to Air refueling probe to right are in progress to obviate probe coming in Field of View of Head Up Display (HUD).
> 
> Integrated Flight Control System
> *****************************************
> DFCC: CDR completed Realization st of QT unit by 31 Dec 2016.
> Indigenous Actuators: Primary Actuators QT completed, Iron Bird testing completed. Being evaluated on LCA Mk1. Secondary Actuators under development.
> 
> Avionics
> **********
> Avionics architecture has been finalized.
> New cockpit with bigger size (6”x8”) displays has been designed.
> Development of new LRUs is in progress.
> Avionics will be ready by Dec 2018.
> Configuration of Active Phased Array based Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) finalised.
> The number of elements that can be incorporated with the existing geometry for the Antenna Array unit of AESA Radar has been finalised and performance parameters like range and Effective Radiated Power (ERP) computed.
> Night Vision Goggl e (NVG) compatible L E D lights for Navigation lights and Taxi / Landing Lights are being developed. Engineering models have been developed. Performance is being evaluated.
> Conformal antenna developed for V/UHF.
> 
> Under development Technologies for LCA
> *****************************************************
> Development of critical advanced technologies for indigenous equipments and systems is in progress. Project sanctions for development of technologies have been given to identified work centers. The following project s has been completed;
> 
> DALIA actuators
> Indigenous development of high strength titanium alloy Ti-10
> Development of Friction Stir Waelding Technology for Aircraft Structures
> Aerodynamic studies of performance of LCA wing with Vortex Generators
> LCF data generation testing on 15-5 PH steel
> Digital Communication Scheme for Tejas
> 
> On-going Projects
> ***********************
> The following major projects have been initiated and are in progress
> 
> Development of V/UHF Conformal Antenna
> Development of Digital Audio Control System (DACS)
> Digital Liquid Oxygen (LOX) Indicators/ Transmitters
> Development of improved RAM
> Fatigue data generation on AA 7010 Aluminium alloy
> Development of Zn-Ni plating as an alternate to cadmium plating
> Development of high temperature beta titanium alloy DMR 700
> Development of On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS)
> Development of Cabin Shut Off Valve (CBSOV) of ECS,
> Development of AMAGB Bearings
> Advanced Subminiature Telemetry System,
> Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) Mark 2
> Development of MEMS based Pressure Transducers and temperature sensors for Hydraulics system.(Ps all this data shown is of late 2014 rest specualte yourself )



Haha. A whole lot of ifs and buts in your post. LCA Tejas is being developed and developed, but not being commissioned. Meanwhile, the IAF pilots keeping falling out of the sky with their Mig-21s. Brilliant.


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> Haha. A whole lot of ifs and buts in your post. LCA Tejas is being developed and developed, but not being commissioned. Meanwhile, the IAF pilots keeping falling out of the sky with their Mig-21s. Brilliant.


well thats what you have to say as if pakistani fighter jets dont meet with mishaps do you want me to get to your level and give tou time line that in last few years how many of your fighter jets have crashed and how many of your fighter pilots got killed in them ..... well kid lets remain on topic we are not USA or saudia that we are so rich we change fighter jets just like that and thats why we negociate for so long and we are tesing so rigrously so no problems remain and all ironed out before its formally given to indian fighter pilots .. so kid look at the bigger issue not rivial matters

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## vikata

DarX said:


> Haha. A whole lot of ifs and buts in your post. LCA Tejas is being developed and developed, but not being commissioned. Meanwhile, the IAF pilots keeping falling out of the sky with their Mig-21s. Brilliant.


come on mate dont ruin the thread u have zero knowledge and still blabbering 
first learn to produce engine of a moped or auto


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## DarX

vikata said:


> come on mate dont ruin the thread u have zero knowledge and still blabbering
> first learn to produce engine of a moped or auto



I pointed the one thing that mattered, and that is when you guys got totally defensive. Anyways, keep day dreaming. Suits us perfectly fine.


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## GURU DUTT

vikata said:


> come on mate dont ruin the thread u have zero knowledge and still blabbering
> first learn to produce engine of a moped or auto


well what else they can do that troll dear  

thing is they know they will never ever face tejas but still to get a ego boost trying to make fun of smallest son of there bigger and powerfull enemies if you know what i mean rest you speculate about them yourself

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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> well thats what you have to say as if pakistani fighter jets dont meet with mishaps do you want me to get to your level and give tou time line that in last few years how many of your fighter jets have crashed and how many of your fighter pilots got killed in them ..... well kid lets remain on topic we are not USA or saudia that we are so rich we change fighter jets just like that and thats why we negociate for so long and we are tesing so rigrously so no problems remain and all ironed out before its formally given to indian fighter pilots .. so kid look at the bigger issue not rivial matters



You are missing the point. The LCA Tejas was supposed to do one thing, and that was be available in time to replace the older jets. But since it hurts your petty little ego, there is no point in keeping this discussion going any longer.



GURU DUTT said:


> well what else they can do that troll dear
> 
> thing is they know they will never ever face tejas but still to get a ego boost trying to make fun of smallest son of there bigger and powerfull enemies if you know what i mean rest you speculate about them yourself



Trolls fooling themselves.


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> You are missing the point. The LCA Tejas was supposed to do one thing, and that was be available in time to replace the older jets. But since it hurts your petty little ego, there is no point in keeping this discussion going any longer.
> 
> 
> 
> Trolls fooling themselves.


no kid since your a troll and since your intention is to troll here and since guys like @Arsalan & @WebMaster have diffrent set of rules for indians and for pakistanies they do let you get away with anything but ban us if we reply you back in your own langage and that whats holding me back in replying to you the way i do best so let it go 

now as for tejas unlike cahs strapped PAF cash rich IAF is spoiled of choices and can choose and is choosing the best it can from swedish , american or russian or french fighters after rigrous testing them not taking and inducting untested and un FOC fighters like JF17 and then improving them and adding radars and LDPs and missiles and PGMs and LGBs after induscting them in contrast IAF wants a ready for war fighter fully tested and war ready (FOC) its like a diffrence between haves and have nots

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## Arsalan

GURU DUTT said:


> no kid since your a troll and since your intention -------------------------------------------------------------



Welcome back.
If you have any problems with the forum and the moderation is so bad please report that in the relevant thread. You know very well where to do that.

I find it hilarious when you complain about moderation of PDF when i see you post (and i have a few times since i was invited there by a few Indian friends) on that other forum. Have some shame, you have absolutely no moral authority to talk about double standards by friend. 

@nair @scorpionx can you please help me here and go through the thread and report and RATE all the posts that you think need to be rated and reported. 

Thank you.

@WAJsal @The Eagle

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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> no kid since your a troll and since your intention is to troll here and since guys like @Arsalan & @WebMaster have diffrent set of rules for indians and for pakistanies they do let you get away with anything but ban us if we reply you back in your own langage and that whats holding me back in replying to you the way i do best so let it go
> 
> now as for tejas unlike cahs strapped PAF cash rich IAF is spoiled of choices and can choose and is choosing the best it can from swedish , american or russian or french fighters after rigrous testing them not taking and inducting untested and un FOC fighters like JF17 and then improving them and adding radars and LDPs and missiles and PGMs and LGBs after induscting them in contrast IAF wants a ready for war fighter fully tested and war ready (FOC) its like a diffrence between haves and have nots



It is amazing that immature people like you have been allowed to operate on this forum. It might be acceptable in Hindustan to troll and smother people who might carry an opposing opinion, but we have a vibrant civil society in Pakistan. You couldn't defend the glaring blunders of Hindustan so you're trying to make personal attacks. But I will not complain about your behavior because it is not in my nature as a Pakistani to rat out other people.

Moving to the second part of your comical post, having cash doesn't mean you waste cash when you get spoiled for choice. The IAF is an air force, not a trophy wife. But they can continue to act like one for all we care. We will have it easy in the air like 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1999. What your post does show is your immaturity.



Arsalan said:


> Welcome back.
> If you have any problems with the forum and the moderation is so bad please report that in the relevant thread. You know very well where to do that.
> 
> I find it hilarious when you complain about moderation of PDF when i see you post (and i have a few times since i was invited there by a few Indian friends) on that other forum. Have some shame, you have absolutely no moral authority to talk about double standards by friend.
> 
> @nair @scorpionx can you please help me here and go through the thread and report and RATE all the posts that you think need to be rated and reported.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> @WAJsal @The Eagle



Hello Arsalan,

I have always had a deep interest in defense related issues and I joined this forum sometime back, but couldn't get the time to become active until now.

However, I am constantly seeing our Hindustani friends making complaints against me when I question the LCA Tejas project in a perfectly decent manner.

Can you please let me know if there is any actual issue or if they are being overly sensitive?

Best Regards.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> The main question is what has Hindustan achieved?? What is the status of the great Tejas? It remains under testing while the IAF flies its old Mig-21.



It is being serial produced at the rate of 8 this year, 12 for the next & a stabilized 16 from 2018-19 per annum. A second production line is being set up.



DarX said:


> but we have a vibrant civil society in Pakistan.



Please move this to stupid and funny thread.

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> It is being serial produced at the rate of 8 this year, 12 for the next & a stabilized 16 from 2018-19 per annum. A second production line is being set up.
> 
> 
> 
> Please move this to stupid and funny thread.



Of course we can then add all your posts in that thread too.


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> having cash doesn't mean you waste cash when you get spoiled for choice. The IAF is an air force, We will have it easy in the air like 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1999.
> 
> However, I am constantly seeing our Hindustani friends making complaints against me when I question the LCA Tejas project in a perfectly decent manner.
> 
> Best Regards.



now now kid what i can say but just to counter you point is tejas already is in process of diiverry and second production line in nasik is already commissioned one already working full steam in bangalore while another one coming up (for MK2)

now as for all those wars you showed me kid well had you been so great in all of those you would have got kashmir and dint had to run to USA & UNO each time for a shamefull ceasefire but then since history is something which every one has his own interpritation and specially pakistanies love to denyal and a parellel universe of there own keep dreaming just like you thing you have a so called "vibrant civil society in Pakistan."

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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Of course we can then add all your posts in that thread too.



That's your come back after getting literally owned in every thread ?

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> It is being serial produced at the rate of 8 this year, 12 for the next & a stabilized 16 from 2018-19 per annum. A second production line is being set up.



"It is being.." "wil be.." "being set up.."

Great achievements. So coming back up to my original post that the LCA Tejas will need another decade to mature, this was all a lot of talk and no real action. Just like every other thing Hindustan has done.



gslv mk3 said:


> That's your come back after getting literally owned in every thread ?



Looks like you Hindustanis have a different definition of "owned" as compared to the rest of the world.



GURU DUTT said:


> now now kid what i can say but just to counter you point is tejas already is in process of diiverry and second production line in nasik is already commissioned one already working full steam in bangalore while another one coming up (for MK2)
> 
> now as for all those wars you showed me kid well had you been so great in all of those you would have got kashmir and dint had to run to USA & UNO each time for a shamefull ceasefire but then since history is something which every one has his own interpritation and specially pakistanies love to denyal and a parellel universe of there own keep dreaming just like you thing you have a so called "vibrant civil society in Pakistan."



Munchkin I don'y know why you don't feel any shame. What good is future deliveries when we are asking what you have done up till now???? The world looks very different from what you day dream. Wake up. Or don't wake up because that really suits us much better.

One can't really expect shame from ones who condone gao rakshak murders and then question others.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> "It is being.." "wil be.." "being set up.."



'it is being' is present progressive tense, if you missed that one. BTW, when we talk about our future plans, it must be remembered that we are trying for capabilities beyond anything PAC Kamra has now.



DarX said:


> So coming back up to my original post that the LCA Tejas will need another decade to mature



You'll see an AESA equipped Tejas in 2019, so claiming that it'll take a decade to mature proves your idiocy.



DarX said:


> Looks like you Hindustanis have a different definition of "owned" as compared to the rest of the world.



Dont make me post the stupid comments you made on the Brahmos thread here.



DarX said:


> What good is future deliveries when we are asking what you have done up till now????



6th serial produced one has been handed over to IAF.

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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> "It is being.." "wil be.." "being set up.."
> 
> Great achievements. So coming back up to my original post that the LCA Tejas will need another decade to mature, this was all a lot of talk and no real action. Just like every other thing Hindustan has done.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you Hindustanis have a different definition of "owned" as compared to the rest of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Munchkin I don'y know why you don't feel any shame. What good is future deliveries when we are asking what you have done up till now???? The world looks very different from what you day dream. Wake up. Or don't wake up because that really suits us much better.
> 
> One can't really expect shame from ones who condone gao rakshak murders and then question others.


he he he he kiddo apart form everything we all know who is beeging yamrica bahadur and china for second hand or for soft loans or discounted rates for 8 aef sollahs 

and what we do in contrats we are setting up factories and testing fighter and readying for full production which is already stated and as momentum builds slowly and steadily is gaining steam so keep balberring no body is botherred every body wants to make money and we are also doing that

now as for tejas its already on scedule MK1 already 40 orderred 6 diliverred Mk1a already under final developement stages testing will start in mid 2018 and 83 already orderred (only new landing gear and AESA radar with IFR probe & OBOGS addded) and MK2 coming out in 2019( prototypes already under construction)


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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> 'it is being' is present progressive tense, if you missed that one. BTW, when we talk about our future plans, it must be remembered that we are trying for capabilities beyond anything PAC Kamra has now.
> 
> 6th serial produced one has been handed over to IAF.



So Hindustan is trying to get capabilities beyond what PAC Kamra has anything now, but has failed to even come close to what PAC Kamra has achieved presently. Good job. *Slow Clap*



gslv mk3 said:


> Dont make me post the stupid comments you made on the Brahmos thread here.



Please be my guest. It can't be half as stupid as compared to what you've been doing on this thread.



gslv mk3 said:


> You'll see an AESA equipped Tejas in 2019, so claiming that it'll take a decade to mature proves your idiocy.



Hahahaha! Boasting about something you have not achieved. The only idiocy you have proved is your own.


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## Arsalan

DarX said:


> Hello Arsalan,
> 
> I have always had a deep interest in defense related issues and I joined this forum sometime back, but couldn't get the time to become active until now.
> 
> However, I am constantly seeing our Hindustani friends making complaints against me when I question the LCA Tejas project in a perfectly decent manner.
> 
> Can you please let me know if there is any actual issue or if they are being overly sensitive?
> 
> Best Regards.


Its a bit of both. But i see that you have engaged the wrong guys here. I will suggest you talk on this matter to some better informed and sensible Indian members. @scorpionx will be a good person to talk to. Plus there are many Pakistani members here as well who can guide you in this subject.

My suggestion is that when you see a troll, a trust me if you will know it when you see them, just report the post and leave it to the moderators. For these people, PDF and trolling here is like oxygen. They cannot resist to be part of this forum and have to guts to call admins and mods biased while the other forums they so cheerfully post on are EXAMPLES of biased moderation. Where abuses hurled at Pakistan and Muslims are REWARDED. Yet to these hypocrites THIS FORUM IS biased. They would say that the forum is worthless and waste of time and then prove how worthless they themselves are by spending every available minute of their pathetic life on the forum. There is a HUGE group of such members and we are working on enforcing a permanent ban. Till that happens, just report and move on. I can assure you that there are many sensible and educated Indian members which are always a treat to debate with. Look for them and you will be using your time in a much more constructive manner.

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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he he kiddo apart form everything we all know who is beeging yamrica bahadur and china for second hand or for soft loans or discounted rates for 8 aef sollahs
> 
> and what we do in contrats we are setting up factories and testing fighter and readying for full production which is already stated and as momentum builds slowly and steadily is gaining steam so keep balberring no body is botherred every body wants to make money and we are also doing that
> 
> now as for tejas its already on scedule MK1 already 40 orderred 6 diliverred Mk1a already under final developement stages testing will start in mid 2018 and 83 already orderred (only new landing gear and AESA radar with IFR probe & OBOGS addded) and MK2 coming out in 2019( prototypes already under construction)



Haha. Beta we all know who is begging Amreeka today. We know how Modi got slapped down at the BRICS summit in his own country. We know how he got slapped down in his meeting with Trump. As always you can only make false claims.

Hindustan is all talk and no action. Setting up factories and testing fighters? What factories? The Rafale deal fell thr


Arsalan said:


> Its a bit of both. But i see that you have engaged the wrong guys here. I will suggest you talk on this matter to some better informed and sensible Indian members. @scorpionx will be a good person to talk to. Plus there are many Pakistani members here as well who can guide you in this subject.
> 
> My suggestion is that when you see a troll, a trust me if you will know it when you see them, just report the post and leave it to the moderators. For these people, PDF and trolling here is like oxygen. They cannot resist to be part of this forum and have to guts to call admins and mods biased while the other forums they so cheerfully post on are EXAMPLES of biased moderation. Where abuses hurled at Pakistan and Muslims are REWARDED. Yet to these hypocrites THIS FORUM IS biased. They would say that the forum is worthless and waste of time and then prove how worthless they themselves are by spending every available minute of their pathetic life on the forum. There is a HUGE group of such members and we are working on enforcing a permanent ban. Till that happens, just report and move on. I can assure you that there are many sensible and educated Indian members which are always a treat to debate with. Look for them and you will be using your time in a much more constructive manner.



Thanks man. I just realized that I've wasted my time on them. Reporting them in the future.


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> So Hindustan is trying to get capabilities beyond what PAC Kamra has anything now, but has failed to even come close to what PAC Kamra has achieved presently. Good job. *Slow Clap*
> 
> 
> 
> Please be my guest. It can't be half as stupid as compared to what you've been doing on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahaha! Boasting about something you have not achieved. The only idiocy you have proved is your own.


here kid take a look and they are couple of years old and GaA version which we already have ground tested and arial testing is going on we are devloping GaN verion now


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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> here kid take a look and they are couple of years old and GaA version which we already have ground tested and arial testing is going on we are devloping GaN verion now
> 
> View attachment 407594
> View attachment 407595
> View attachment 407596



Betaa good achievement. You developed and now you have fixed it in a showcase. Wow!


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## GURU DUTT

and this is the EL2052 radar which is secleted as intrim measure till UTTAM is fully ready 








DarX said:


> Betaa good achievement. You developed and now you have fixed it in a showcase. Wow!


no thats not right a version of it is already working in indian DRDO AWACS which has 280 degrees tracking & scanning capability upto 450KM each side and its now in IAF so dont worry we have three of them besides 3 phalcons while 2 next gen phalcons are on order

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## aftab_s81

Pakistani poster here should understand that LCA and JFT, though belong to same class, are entirely different programs with very different objectives. JFT was meant to fill up the numbers quickly as our mig-21s were aging. India on the other hand, had no such urgency. They had plenty of Su-30s, Mirages and Mig-29s. Tejas is a learning platform. Surely it will join IAF, but pace of program doesn't matter. What matters is grasp of technology and this is something they have achieve well. This will help them in their domestic MRCA. So don't make fun of LCA program, it is doing what its intended to do, jut try to understand the objects of LCA program. Personally I like they way Tejas is, a true fourth gen, light, nimble and simple birdy. @MastanKhan

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## GURU DUTT

aftab_s81 said:


> Pakistani poster here should understand that LCA and JFT, though belong to same class, are entirely different programs


exactly for you its a prime frontline fighter/central forward-mid feilder while for us its last line of home land security point defnce fighter with SEAD/DEAD/presission bombing in secondarry role more like a goalkeeper and will always remain behind the shadows of in big boys IAF like MKI , rafale , Mig29, M2K , FGFA Jaguar and F16


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## DarX

aftab_s81 said:


> Pakistani poster here should understand that LCA and JFT, though belong to same class, are entirely different programs



No Sir the LCA Tejas and JF-17 belong to the same class of planes. The difference is in the execution of the projects. While HAL has fallen into the trap of overdeveloping a product, the PAF closed the design so that the JF-17 could enter service in time to replace its retiring planes. As the JF-17 entered service in 2007, and new developments have been successfully incorporated, the newer more advanced models will be coming online while the oldest JF-17s would've completed a minimum of 15 years of service. Thus the LCA Tejas, when it enters service, should be compared with the JF-17s entering service at that time and which will obviously be carrying advancements themselves.


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## aftab_s81

DarX said:


> No Sir the LCA Tejas and JF-17 belong to the same class of planes. The difference is in the execution of the projects. While HAL has fallen into the trap of overdeveloping a product, the PAF closed the design so that the JF-17 could enter service in time to replace its retiring planes. As the JF-17 entered service in 2007, and new developments have been successfully incorporated, the newer more advanced models will be coming online while the oldest JF-17s would've completed a minimum of 15 years of service. Thus the LCA Tejas, when it enters service, should be compared with the JF-17s entering service at that time and which will obviously be carrying advancements themselves.


Your point carries weight, but what you are missing is that, they are not in a hurry. They just don't need this. They are happy with their MKIs and Mig-29s. No doubt JFT was very well executed program but a slow LCA program doesn't hurt India. They can start churning out a fighter assembly anytime, look at the F-16 offers. They are deep pockets, they can afford it. We, other hand, have limited resources, and we did very well to achieve with little resources and limited time.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> So Hindustan is trying to get capabilities beyond what PAC Kamra has anything now, but has failed to even come close to what PAC Kamra has achieved presently.



Don't quote what I said out of it's context. HAL's present rate of production with LCA is the same as that of JF 17 today. They are trying to double it- we have already achieved it with both the Dhruv Helicopter & Su 30 MKI.



DarX said:


> It can't be half as stupid as compared to what you've been doing on this thread.



Like claiming that JF 17 has more Pakistani content than LCA whenyou don't even produce it's complete airframe?



DarX said:


> Hahahaha! Boasting about something you have not achieved.



AESA has not yet been integrated to more advanced programd like the Eurofighter so it is future tense for us too. In present tense however, they are modifying two LCA LSPs to integrate the Uttam for flight testing. 2019 is the time for the next design iteration, ie the LCA Mk1A of which IAF have ordered 103.

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## DarX

aftab_s81 said:


> Pakistani poster here should understand that LCA and JFT, though belong to same class, are entirely different programs with very different objectives. JFT was meant to fill up the numbers quickly as our mig-21s were aging. India on the other hand, had no such urgency. They had plenty of Su-30s, Mirages and Mig-29s. Tejas is a learning platform. Surely it will join IAF, but pace of program doesn't matter. What matters is grasp of technology and this is something they have achieve well. This will help them in their domestic MRCA. So don't make fun of LCA program, it is doing what its intended to do, jut try to understand the objects of LCA program. Personally I like they way Tejas is, a true fourth gen, light, nimble and simple birdy. @MastanKhan



I don't think it is a correct assessment to say that the LCA Tejas was delayed because it did not carry the same priority as the JF-17. Delaying projects


aftab_s81 said:


> Your point carries weight, but what you are missing is that, they are not in a hurry. They just don't need this. They are happy with their MKIs and Mig-29s. No doubt JFT was very well executed program but a slow LCA program doesn't hurt India. They can start churning out a fighter assembly anytime, look at the F-16 offers. They are deep pockets, they can afford it. We, other hand, have limited resources, and we did very well to achieve with little resources and limited time.



Air Marshal Dhanoa remarked that IAF's current lack of fighter jets is like playing with a team of 7 players instead of a full complement of 11. I don't think the LCA Tejas was delayed on purpose and neither are they happy about it. It seems like a consolation statement when one say's that the delay is fine because the IAF is has many other planes and it was a good learning process.

If the main benefit of the local manufacturing projects was learning how to build planes, then HAL would've learnt a lot from the HF-24 Marut to deliver the LCA Tejas, HAL HJT-36 and HAL HTT-40 on time.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> If the main benefit of the local manufacturing projects was learning how to build planes, then HAL would've learnt a lot from the HF-24 Marut to deliver the LCA Tejas



1.These projects are separated by 2 decades
2. LCA was not developed by HAL.

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> 1.These projects are separated by 2 decades
> 2. LCA was not developed by HAL.



What was the point of developing the HF-24 if Hindustan was going to forget the experience within two decades? And why does Hindustan have multiple companies if it cannot leverage the experience gained in one project to avoid mismanaging the second one?


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> What was the point of developing the HF-24 if Hindustan was going to forget the experience within two decades? And why does Hindustan have multiple companies if it cannot leverage the experience gained in one project to avoid mismanaging the second one?



There is no point. An program to develop a jet interceptor aircraft was scuttled in the 1970s & the Jaguar took it's place. ADA was constituted because HAL wasn't enough to handle such a big program- It's like soviet approach. In the place of TsAGI we have NAL, ADA is the design bureau (ala Mikoyan) & HAL is the production partner.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fighter-jet-proposals-after-hal-marut-before-hal-tejas.293471/

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## aftab_s81

DarX said:


> I don't think it is a correct assessment to say that the LCA Tejas was delayed because it did not carry the same priority as the JF-17. Delaying projects
> 
> 
> Air Marshal Dhanoa remarked that IAF's current lack of fighter jets is like playing with a team of 7 players instead of a full complement of 11. I don't think the LCA Tejas was delayed on purpose and neither are they happy about it. It seems like a consolation statement when one say's that the delay is fine because the IAF is has many other planes and it was a good learning process.
> 
> If the main benefit of the local manufacturing projects was learning how to build planes, then HAL would've learnt a lot from the HF-24 Marut to deliver the LCA Tejas, HAL HJT-36 and HAL HTT-40 on time.


This phenomena of 7 vs 11 comes in context to a two front war with China as well as Pak, and believe me, this is very new. It only emerged after 9/11 when US found a new ally, pumped Indians Bigly. Merkins are the enemy of south asia, they are enemies of Pak as well as India. They just want to keep their military industrial going, look at the Saudi deal? What will Saudies do with all these weapons when they love Israelis? Airforces around the world always cry hard to get more $$$s, Indians done nothing new. Two front war will never happen, China cannot sacrifice their economic progress for Pak. Hence the question of 7 vs 11 is a farce. No reality. They already have enough weapons, at least enough for Pak, and they know it.


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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> What was the point of developing the HF-24 if Hindustan was going to forget the experience within two decades? And why does Hindustan have multiple companies if it cannot leverage the experience gained in one project to avoid mismanaging the second one?


looks like you dont hvae enough grip on how history and socio economicks works well let me give you a quick lesson kid why that happenned and why we could not make use of it 

1. 1974 we exploded neuclear devices due to which all US & its allies imposed all kinds of tech sanctions possible at that time hence we could also not get any required computers & toolings 

2.we were in soviet camp defcto type so could no get the requierd counsultency as even marut was designed bt german kurt tank as indian R&D was not so developed then cause we even were not food sufficient at that time forget having wast knowledge and resources to waste on fighter jets 

3.biggest hurdel was money till late 1980s indian economy was on verge of collapse til narsimha rao as PM came and gave MMS full support to take any radical steps and through away the cltches os soviet style socialist closed economy and instector raj type economy for a captalosts type free and open market econmy and end of inspector raj and then money started coming in 

4. only after a decade later in 1990s we got enough money to think potive of rstarting such intiatives abd then only in 1993 first batch of some 453 something crore INR were cleared and Tejas/LCA as it was called them project took off and first prtotype took to air only in 2001 (but even in 1998 after pokharn2 blasts sanctions were reomposed which were re lifted only in 2008 )

rest you can speculate yourself


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## ni8mare

DarX said:


> "It is being.." "wil be.." "being set up.."


difficult to understand or what........can't blame though
=======================================
SP-6

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## DarX

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like you dont hvae enough grip on how history and socio economicks works well let me give you a quick lesson kid why that happenned and why we could not make use of it
> 
> 1. 1974 we exploded neuclear devices due to which all US & its allies imposed all kinds of tech sanctions possible at that time hence we could also not get any required computers & toolings
> 
> 2.we were in soviet camp defcto type so could no get the requierd counsultency as even marut was designed bt german kurt tank as indian R&D was not so developed then cause we even were not food sufficient at that time forget having wast knowledge and resources to waste on fighter jets
> 
> 3.biggest hurdel was money till late 1980s indian economy was on verge of collapse til narsimha rao as PM came and gave MMS full support to take any radical steps and through away the cltches os soviet style socialist closed economy and instector raj type economy for a captalosts type free and open market econmy and end of inspector raj and then money started coming in
> 
> 4. only after a decade later in 1990s we got enough money to think potive of rstarting such intiatives abd then only in 1993 first batch of some 453 something crore INR were cleared and Tejas/LCA as it was called them project took off and first prtotype took to air only in 2001 (but even in 1998 after pokharn2 blasts sanctions were reomposed which were re lifted only in 2008 )
> 
> rest you can speculate yourself



Pakistan is producing JF-17s... And Hindustan is producing excuses.



ni8mare said:


> difficult to understand or what........can't blame though
> =======================================
> SP-6



Read the whole post. The one it was directed to understood it and replied as well.

In any case.. Wow.. Picture of prototype No.6. That is more impressive than the approximately 90 JF-17s that are in services. And it totally makes up for IAF having to carry the old Mig-21s and Mig-27s. Good job.


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## salimpheku

DarX said:


> Pakistan is producing JF-17s



I think the Chinese would disagree with you.

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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Pakistan is producing JF-17s



We are producing Su 30 MKIs. the point is ?

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## ni8mare

DarX said:


> In any case.. Wow.. Picture of prototype No.6. That is more impressive than the approximately 90 JF-17s that are in services. And it totally makes up for IAF having to carry the old Mig-21s and Mig-27s. Good job.


Are you dumb or what ?............that not a prototype ...sp>> serial production

@Arsalan why this guy is trolling ?

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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> In any case.. Wow.. Picture of prototype No.6. That is more impressive than the approximately 90 JF-17s that are in service



SP means 'Serial Production'. Prototypes aren't serial produced anywhere in the aerospace industry AFAIK.

Yes it is impressive, because we designed & developed it on our own.

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## GURU DUTT

DarX said:


> Pakistan is producing JF-17s... And Hindustan is producing excuses.
> 
> 
> 
> Read the whole post. The one it was directed to understood it and replied as well.
> 
> In any case.. Wow.. Picture of prototype No.6. That is more impressive than the approximately 90 JF-17s that are in services. And it totally makes up for IAF having to carry the old Mig-21s and Mig-27s. Good job.


well we are already started full serial production of LCA and in first year its 12 per year and going to incrase it 16 till next year and right now producing 16 Su30 MKIs & Dhruv & Rudra & LCH helicopters from raw meterial level (yes we even bult all its air frames & even engines and control systems) you tell us when you design and manufature and use a water pump or a 80cc moped engine inhouse

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## DarX

aftab_s81 said:


> This phenomena of 7 vs 11 comes in context to a two front war with China as well as Pak, and believe me, this is very new. It only emerged after 9/11 when US found a new ally, pumped Indians Bigly. Merkins are the enemy of south asia, they are enemies of Pak as well as India. They just want to keep their military industrial going, look at the Saudi deal? What will Saudies do with all these weapons when they love Israelis? Airforces around the world always cry hard to get more $$$s, Indians done nothing new. Two front war will never happen, China cannot sacrifice their economic progress for Pak. Hence the question of 7 vs 11 is a farce. No reality. They already have enough weapons, at least enough for Pak, and they know it.



I'm not sure if this is correct. All countries must be prepared for the worst possible situations, and in India's case, that includes a two front war. If the Air Marshal has commented on it, then it definitely seems to be a big problem which is on his mind. Another thing that you miss is that if Hindustan is lacking enough weapons to deal with a two front defensive war, then it definitely doesn't have enough weapons for an offensive war against Pakistan, unless it trusts China enough to leave its North and West completely unprotected. Even if China will not go on the offensive to support a misadventure by Pakistan, do you really think it will abandon its strongest ally if India attacks? So this means no surgical strikes and no Indian threat to Pakistan.

But I do agree with you that America is manipulating other countries to maintain its status as the sole super power of the world. What it really wants is that countries of the world should stay weak and that means keep fighting with each other. The main benefit of this is that it keeps America's enemies away from its borders. As China is rising, what can America do? It props up India to keep China ties down in Asia and not challenge America. This is how it is. Everyone in America's position would've done the same. But India taking such an aggressive line against China really makes it easy for America to keep doing its dirty work.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Another thing that you miss is that if Hindustan is lacking enough weapons to deal with a two front defensive war, then it definitely doesn't have enough weapons for an offensive war against Pakistan, unless it trusts China enough to leave its North and West completely unprotected.



http://indianexpress.com/article/in...t-war-army-chief-general-bipin-rawat-4694292/


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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> There is no point. An program to develop a jet interceptor aircraft was scuttled in the 1970s & the Jaguar took it's place. ADA was constituted because HAL wasn't enough to handle such a big program- It's like soviet approach. In the place of TsAGI we have NAL, ADA is the design bureau (ala Mikoyan) & HAL is the production partner.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fighter-jet-proposals-after-hal-marut-before-hal-tejas.293471/



So does that mean Hindustan might also "forget" all that it has learnt from the Tejas project? Because you just confirmed that it happened to the HF-24 and HJT-16 projects too?


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> So does that mean Hindustan might also "forget" all that it has learnt from the Tejas project?



Never heard of LCA Mk2 & AMCA projects ?


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## salimpheku

DarX said:


> So does that mean Hindustan might also "forget" all that it has learnt from the Tejas project? Because you just confirmed that it happened to the HF-24 and HJT-16 projects too?


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## DarX

ni8mare said:


> Are you dumb or what ?............that not a prototype ...sp>> serial production
> 
> @Arsalan why this guy is trolling ?



Are you dumb or what? It remains a prototype if it has yet to go through its first gun firing trials.

And replying doesn't mean trolling. We are not here to listen to your day dreams.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> It remains a prototype if it has yet to go through its first gun firing trials



So the EFT Tranche 1 with no A2G capabilities & limited A2A capabilities as a prototype ?

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## ni8mare

DarX said:


> Are you dumb or what? It remains a prototype if it has yet to go through its first gun firing trials.
> 
> And replying doesn't mean trolling. We are not here to listen to your day dreams.


Then by that logic .........JF-17 is a prototype because it has still not attended FOC or still it does not have refuel probe or HDMS .........will we call it prototype ?

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## DarX

ni8mare said:


> Then by that logic .........JF-17 is a prototype because it has still not attended FOC or still it does not have refuel probe or HDMS .........will we call it prototype ?



When I reply, you guys run off crying to the mods. Either be a man and face averse situations, or else avoid playing wtih the big boys.


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## ranadd

DarX said:


> When I reply, you guys run off crying to the mods. Either be a man and face averse situations, or else avoid playing wtih the big boys.



You still didnt answer. By the same logic you applies for HAL Tejas IAF mk1, Jf 17 is a sub standard failure.

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## X_Killer

DarX said:


> The project was initiated in 1975 and so it has been more than 40 years of development which resulted in the prototype of the LCA Tejas.
> The LCA Tejas still remains in development and has failed to replace the IAF's old fighters. This has led to the IAF now looking to waste another $20 billion for a second foreign fighter to do what its great INDIGENOUS fighter project was supposed to do.


Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June 1993.

If you are still reluctant to accept it than its your own problem.
FC-1 was started before 1993 but still not matured to fire all claimed munitions.

Enjoy your day!
Cheers!!!!



ni8mare said:


> Then by that logic .........JF-17 is a prototype because it has still not attended FOC or still it does not have refuel probe or HDMS .........will we call it prototype ?


It's the actual reason behind the both jf-17 crashes along with their pilots kill.
Jf-17 us the jet which doesn't require any quality assurance.
But here IAF is a Internationally std force which didn't receive anything without QC.

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## SingaporeGuy

Biggest waste of money since dawn of mankind.

Pakistan got a much better deal in the form of JF-17

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## satishkumarcsc

SingaporeGuy said:


> Biggest waste of money since dawn of mankind.
> 
> Pakistan got a much better deal in the form of JF-17



India got much more with LCA than Pakistan ever will with JF 17. These two are different programs and cannot be compared and I would call both as successful projects.

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## gslv mk3

China really has the world's largest diaspora, I've seen one in literally every flag here.

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## SingaporeGuy

satishkumarcsc said:


> India got much more with LCA than Pakistan ever will with JF 17. These two are different programs and cannot be compared and I would call both as successful projects.



Yea, im surprised u would say that after 8 billion dollars spent on tech transfers for rafale


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## X_Killer

SingaporeGuy said:


> Biggest waste of money since dawn of mankind.
> 
> Pakistan got a much better deal in the form of JF-17


Really?

But we are fine because we never want substandard item.
Be happy with your substandard piece of metal

Cheers for you


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## SingaporeGuy

gslv mk3 said:


> China really has the world's largest diaspora, I've seen one in literally every flag here.



coming for yer country soon


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## gslv mk3

SingaporeGuy said:


> coming for yer country soon



You couldn't do jack against tiny Vietnam or even Bhutan for that matter. So go whine elsewhere


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## SingaporeGuy

X_Killer said:


> Really?
> 
> But we are fine because we never want substandard item.
> Be happy with your substandard piece of metal
> 
> Cheers for you



u guys spent so much money on LCA Tejas only to get a clone of mirage 2000.

94 million USD per tejas.
u know, in singapore we bought the F-15SG at the same price and it comes with armanents and tech that makes it the top fighter jet in south east asia



gslv mk3 said:


> You couldn't do jack against tiny Vietnam or even Bhutan for that matter. So go whine elsewhere


vietnam got pummeled with loss of paracels


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## gslv mk3

SingaporeGuy said:


> vietnam got pummeled with loss of paracels



Did they teach you in their propaganda class ?


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## satishkumarcsc

SingaporeGuy said:


> Yea, im surprised u would say that after 8 billion dollars spent on tech transfers for rafale



So what? Anyone in Asia would do that to get their hands on French experience in Aircraft building. Remember the French gave the americans the SPAD in WW1. The only countries in Asia who can get their hands on such technology are India and China. Since China is under defence sanctions from EU India is the only country that can.

The technologies used in Rafale are 5th gen technologies and it would be nice to learn the know how. The M 88 engine,,,even with lower thrust is a much more advanced engine. So is the rbe2 radar along with the SPECTRA EW suite.


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## SingaporeGuy

satishkumarcsc said:


> So what? Anyone in Asia would do that to get their hands on French experience in Aircraft building. Remember the French gave the americans the SPAD in WW1. The only countries in Asia who can get their hands on such technology are India and China. Since China is under defence sanctions from EU India is the only country that can.
> 
> The technologies used in Rafale are 5th gen technologies and it would be nice to learn the know how. The M 88 engine,,,even with lower thrust is a much more advanced engine. So is the rbe2 radar along with the SPECTRA EW suite.



Then u would have nullified the funds spent on the tejas


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## satishkumarcsc

SingaporeGuy said:


> Then u would have nullified the funds spent on the tejas



It is our money and our problem...not yours.

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## SingaporeGuy

satishkumarcsc said:


> It is our money and our problem...not yours.



Its a big problem for india.
How can a big country make such stupid decisions for the taxpayers


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## satishkumarcsc

SingaporeGuy said:


> Its a big problem for india.
> How can a big country make such stupid decisions for the taxpayers



Well you are from a small citystate and you wont understand the politics and economics of a greater nation. So as I told it is the wish of our country.


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## X_Killer

SingaporeGuy said:


> u guys spent so much money on LCA Tejas only to get a clone of mirage 2000.
> 
> 94 million USD per tejas.
> u know, in singapore we bought the F-15SG at the same price and it comes with armanents and tech that makes it the top fighter jet in south east asia


$94 million ?
Reply with source otherwise keep your stupidity upto you only.


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## SingaporeGuy

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well you are from a small citystate and you wont understand the politics and economics of a greater nation. So as I told it is the wish of our country.



dude my country is smaller den yours but so much wealthier


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## aswin

SingaporeGuy said:


> dude my country is smaller den yours but so much wealthier


yet no nuke


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## SingaporeGuy

X_Killer said:


> $94 million ?
> Reply with source otherwise keep your stupidity upto you only.


Go see wikipedia



aswin said:


> yet no nuke



better than to live in fear of pakistan nukes


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## aswin

SingaporeGuy said:


> Go see wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> better than to live in fear of pakistan nukes


u have better escape mechanisms... Long live


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## mirage

SingaporeGuy said:


> dude my country is smaller den yours but so much wealthier


indeed standard of living is very good in singapore *too* , but you know mumbai having an area of 600 square miles has bigger gdp compared to a 700+ square miles singapore , and we will not run for our national security during war unlike puny singapore which can only survive by the blessings of countries like papa usa . so ? understand ??????? huaren zai xinjiapo <<>???????? !


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## satishkumarcsc

SingaporeGuy said:


> dude my country is smaller den yours but so much wealthier


It is wealthy because it is small. Big country and big problems.


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## Sliver

SingaporeGuy said:


> dude my country is smaller den yours but so much wealthier


you do know that singapore is very friendly with India and stationed their f-16s in India (also trains with their air force) right?


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## SingaporeGuy

Sliver said:


> you do know that singapore is very friendly with India and stationed their f-16s in India (also trains with their air force) right?



Dude we even trained in china and taiwan

We put forces where even USA can only dream of placing.



satishkumarcsc said:


> It is wealthy because it is small. Big country and big problems.


No such thing. Capable leadership is the key. 

Vote in a clown and country becomes a joke


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## Sliver

SingaporeGuy said:


> We put forces where even USA can only dream of placing.


singapore puts forces whre USA can only dream of.

@Nilgiri @Syed.Ali.Haider

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## SingaporeGuy

mirage said:


> indeed standard of living is very good in singapore *too* , but you know mumbai having an area of 600 square miles has bigger gdp compared to a 700+ square miles singapore , and we will not run for our national security during war unlike puny singapore which can only survive by the blessings of countries like papa usa . so ? understand ??????? huaren zai xinjiapo <<>???????? !


We lack strategic depth.
But for good measure, we have to be the NYC of Asia to maintain our relevance forever


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## fitpOsitive

ni8mare said:


> difficult to understand or what........can't blame though
> =======================================
> SP-6


This bird is getting beautiful day by day. I think now Tejas is getting due attention.

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## SingaporeGuy

fitpOsitive said:


> This bird is getting beautiful day by day. I think now Tejas is getting due attention.



Its a 4G airframe. No matter what 4G airframes is no good for a country wanting to be a superpower

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## VCheng

Sliver said:


> singapore puts forces whre USA can only dream of.
> 
> @Nilgiri @Syed.Ali.Haider



Of course. Many others dream of putting forces where USA puts them in reality. I do not see any problem with that. Do you?

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## fitpOsitive

SingaporeGuy said:


> Its a 4G airframe. No matter what 4G airframes is no good for a country wanting to be a superpower


Actually I dont believe in that super power theory. Rather if the people of a country are happy, for me its already a superpower.

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## X_Killer

SingaporeGuy said:


> Go see wikipedia


Wikipedia !
Goto the reference first. The is stated for a package not for only jet.
Similarly if we calculate by that way than RAFALE should have a tag of more than 200 billion dollars.

I request you to smell some coffee


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## SingaporeGuy

GauravSingh said:


> What is more lethal? Tejas or Rafale?



of course rafale


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## vikata

mirage said:


> indeed standard of living is very good in singapore *too* , but you know mumbai having an area of 600 square miles has bigger gdp compared to a 700+ square miles singapore , and we will not run for our national security during war unlike puny singapore which can only survive by the blessings of countries like papa usa . so ? understand ??????? huaren zai xinjiapo <<>???????? !


he is a pakistani who is ashamed of his origin

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## Nilgiri

Sliver said:


> singapore puts forces whre USA can only dream of.
> 
> @Nilgiri @Syed.Ali.Haider



They kinda own half of Luke AFB last time I checked lulz. USA can only dreammmmmm


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## X_Killer

GauravSingh said:


> What is more lethal? Tejas or Rafale?


Jf-17 world's only invisible jet (according to its fans)

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## SingaporeGuy

X_Killer said:


> Jf-17 world's only invisible jet (according to its fans)



pakistan jf17 is to pick off targets in india after the bombing run from j20 , fc31 + long range bombers


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## EndangeredSpecies

SingaporeGuy said:


> We put forces where even USA can only dream of placing.


Oh yes, Singaporeans are certainly able to put F-16 where US will never dare to put.

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/RSAF

"Mid-air collision with another F-16A (87-0400, 883). The aircraft, took a while to repair. This mishap occurred over the South China Sea. About 1/3 of the right wing was sheared off and the LE flap bent up 90 degrees. There was also damage to the vertical and horizontal stabilizers on the right side. The successful recovery of the aircraft was a testament to the toughness of the F-16 design and pilot skill. The aircraft was repaired with the assistance of a USAF team from Hill AFB, Utah."


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## X_Killer

SingaporeGuy said:


> pakistan jf17 is to pick off targets in india after the bombing run from j20 , fc31 + long range bombers


First you need to refresh or Wake-up your mind before making any comment.
1st: j20,fc31 and long range bombers. None of them are active with PAF
2nd. PAF can perform these missions only if the Enemy territory is Defenseless, which is not correct in case of India.

So you need some hardcore coffee 
Cheers


----------



## DarX

X_Killer said:


> First you need to refresh or Wake-up your mind before making any comment.
> 1st: j20,fc31 and long range bombers. None of them are active with PAF
> 2nd. PAF can perform these missions only if the Enemy territory is Defenseless, which is not correct in case of India.
> 
> So you need some hardcore coffee
> Cheers



Perhaps you should also wake up.

1. The superiority of the LCA Tejas design counts for nothing since it has failed to complete its trials and enter service.

2. If the PAF can't perform strike missions in India because it is not defenseless, then that also demolishes the surgical strike drama and the any thought of IAF strikes in enemy territory.



X_Killer said:


> Jf-17 world's only invisible jet (according to its fans)



LCA Tejas world's only superior design, which can defend Hindustan from the drawing board.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> 1. The superiority of the LCA Tejas design counts for nothing since it has failed to complete its trials and enter service.



Still had the audacity to come here ? Tejas is in service- no go cry elsewhere.


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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Still had the audacity to come here ? Tejas is in service- no go cry elsewhere.



Still shameless enough to troll. What service is Tejas involved in? Going on grocery runs for the base commander's wife? Go day dream somewhere else.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Still shameless enough to troll. What service is Tejas involved in?









Now whine like a bitch..

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Now whine like a bitch..



I'm not a Hindustani who does that. But sticking to the topic, can it fire a gun?


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> I'm not a Hindustani who does that. But sticking to the topic, can it fire a gun?



Yes it can. It can fire a BVRAAM, HOBS CCM & drop PGMs.


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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Yes it can. It can fire a BVRAAM, HOBS CCM & drop PGMs.



Lol. So it can fire its gun before it has even started its first gun firing trials? And it has the capability to fire Beyond Visual Range Missiles and Precision guided munitions, before its internal gun was ever tested. I wonder who you are trying to fool.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Lol. So it can fire its gun before it has even started its first gun firing trials?



Do you know how the gun trial is done ?



DarX said:


> And it has the capability to fire Beyond Visual Range Missiles and Precision guided munitions, before its internal gun was ever tested. I wonder who you are trying to fool.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...air-beyond-visual-range-missile/1/952546.html






Elbit Dash HMDS

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## ni8mare

gslv mk3 said:


> Do you know how the gun trial is done ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...air-beyond-visual-range-missile/1/952546.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elbit Dash HMDS


stop replying that troll .....its no use

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Do you know how the gun trial is done ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...air-beyond-visual-range-missile/1/952546.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elbit Dash HMDS



Do you know how its done? Sharing some PR stunts is not equal to a full capability. Neither is re-designating a bunch of prototypes as a fighter squadron equal to a developed force.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Sharing some PR stunts is not equal to a full capability.



It is from an annual Indian Army-AF joint exercise named 'Iron Fist', you third rate troll !!



DarX said:


> Neither is re-designating a bunch of prototypes as a fighter squadron



I never knew that SP 1-6, serial produced at HAL's new assembly line was a 'prototype'. I think I'm debating with a troll who have no clue about Aerospace or engineering for that matter.



DarX said:


> Do you know how its done?



No you tell me. What makes gun trials different from, say dropping an LGB.

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## ni8mare

gslv mk3 said:


> I never knew that SP 1-6, serial produced at HAL's new assembly line was a 'prototype'. I think I'm debating with a troll who have no clue about Aerospace or engineering for that matter.


I told you he is a troll .......this kind of troll say same thing like its not inducted and still a prototype

The thing with this kind of troll is that they refuse to acknowledge that India can make 4G fighter.....thereby living in their dreamy la la land

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> It is from an annual Indian Army-AF joint exercise named 'Iron Fist', you third rate troll !!
> 
> 
> 
> I never knew that SP 1-6, serial produced at HAL's new assembly line was a 'prototype'. I think I'm debating with a troll who have no clue about Aerospace or engineering for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> No you tell me. What makes gun trials different from, say dropping an LGB.



Haha. Kettle calling pot black? Ok, the LCA Tejas is a huge force. It has a comprehensive weapons fit, its avionics are complete and it has complete operational clearance. That should be good for your petty little ego. Troll.


----------



## gslv mk3

ni8mare said:


> The thing with this kind of troll is that they refuse to acknowledge that India can make 4G fighter



He is the same guy who claimed that their JV aircraft have more indigenous content than the LCA



DarX said:


> Haha. Kettle calling pot black? Ok, the LCA Tejas is a huge force



Why, where is the answer for my question ? 



DarX said:


> . It has a comprehensive weapons fit, its avionics are complete and it has complete operational clearance.



Yes it has. When the demonstration of IFR happens, which will happen soon, we'll have FOC.


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## DarX

ni8mare said:


> I told you he is a troll .......this kind of troll say same thing like its not inducted and still a prototype
> 
> The thing with this kind of troll is that they refuse to acknowledge that India can make 4G fighter



I am not rejecting the fact that Hindustan can make a 4G fighter. I am questioning the assertion that the LCA tejas is ready. It might be ready perhaps 5 years down the line, but with only the 6th air frame making its first flight and most of its trials yet to be completed, it is nothing but a joke when you say that it is a fully developed in service fighter.


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## ni8mare

gslv mk3 said:


> He is the same guy who claimed that their JV aircraft have more indigenous content than the LCA


LOL......does he even know his country cannot make aerospace grade aluminium 


gslv mk3 said:


> Yes it has. When the demonstration of IFR happens, which will happen soon, we'll have FOC.


Isn't one LSP flew with IFP ??

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## gslv mk3

ni8mare said:


> Isn't one LSP flew with IFP ??



Yes, but it hasn't been demonstrated yet.

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> He is the same guy who claimed that their JV aircraft have more indigenous content than the LCA
> 
> 
> 
> Why, where is the answer for my question ?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it has. When the demonstration of IFR happens, which will happen soon, we'll have FOC.



Haha. So its not in service as a fighter until it gets the FOC? Seems to contradict your earlier statements Troll.


----------



## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> So its not in service as a fighter until it gets the FOC? Seems to contradict your earlier statements Troll.



Learn what IOC & FOC means. IOC was given way back in 2011.

F-35A is in service today, but IOC wasn't achieved when it entered service in 2015.


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## ni8mare

DarX said:


> Haha. So its not in service as a fighter until it gets the FOC? Seems to contradict your earlier statements Troll.


JF 17 inducted in 2008 ....guess what it has still not got its FOC.......Which means according to your logic JF 17 is not in service

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## proud_indian

gslv mk3 said:


> Learn what IOC & FOC means. IOC was given way back in 2011.
> 
> F-35 is in service today, but IOC wasn't achieved when it entered service.



you know you are wasting your time huh!

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## gslv mk3

proud_indian said:


> you know you are wasting your time huh!



I am on vacation..

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Learn what IOC & FOC means. IOC was given way back in 2011.
> 
> F-35 is in service today, but IOC wasn't achieved when it entered service.



Like I said earlier, I wonder who you're trying to fool with this. But it does seem like you think trolling is your contribution to your country.


----------



## proud_indian

gslv mk3 said:


> I am on vacation..



then you are ruining your vacation.

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## ni8mare

DarX said:


> I am not rejecting the fact that Hindustan can make a 4G fighter. I am questioning the assertion that the LCA tejas is ready. *It might be ready perhaps 5 years down the line, *but with only the 6th air frame making its first flight and *most of its trials yet to be completed,* it is nothing but a joke when you say that it is a fully developed in service fighter.


So tell us what it (Tejas) cannot do....make a list of it ....then we will discuss

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## AKD

DarX said:


> Like I said earlier, I wonder who you're trying to fool with this. But it does seem like you think trolling is your contribution to your country.


Lol.so tejas doesn't have FOC then it becomes a failure but jf didn't have even IOC and it becomes success??
Does jf have rouhani taakat?

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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> Like I said earlier, I wonder who you're trying to fool with this. But it does seem like you think trolling is your contribution to your country.



  blah:

_In *September of 2015*, the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base received its first two F-35A Lightning IIs, the first of 72 scheduled to be delivered to the base. _

https://www.f35.com/about/who-is-flying/hill

On *August 02, 2016*

_Today, with the declaration by the program’s biggest customer — the Air Force — that the aircraft is ready for combat, many of those criticisms will fade into the past. The official declaration of Initial Operational Capability (IOC) is what Loren Thompson, a top defense consultant, calls “a turning point for the program.”_

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/08/...a-ioc-major-milestone-for-biggest-us-program/

Now, a new Pentagon report suggests that the futuristic fighter jet still has hundreds of deficiencies and *won’t be ready for ready for full combat testing until 2019.*

http://gizmodo.com/the-f-35-amazingly-has-even-more-problems-than-we-thoug-1791285476

Understood anything ?



DarX said:


> It might be ready perhaps 5 years down the line, but with only the 6th air frame making its first flight and most of its trials yet to be completed



So even an aircraft which has nearly obtained FOC isn't 'ready' ?

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## DarX

AKD said:


> Lol.so tejas doesn't have FOC then it becomes a failure but jf didn't have even IOC and it becomes success??
> Does jf have rouhani taakat?



The LCA Tejas program's main objective was to replace the IAF's fleet of older jets, but it has obviously failed to do that and the IAF's strength has now fallen to critical levels. The JF-17 on the other hand has succeeded in replacing the PAF's older planes, which means it has done what it was supposed to do.

Perhaps you can wish for the LCA Tejas to get rouhani taakat too.


----------



## DarX

ni8mare said:


> JF 17 inducted in 2008 ....guess what it has still not got its FOC.......Which means according to your logic JF 17 is not in service



According to your fellow troll's logic. Do you see the question mark in my post?


gslv mk3 said:


> blah:
> 
> _In *September of 2015*, the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base received its first two F-35A Lightning IIs, the first of 72 scheduled to be delivered to the base. _
> 
> https://www.f35.com/about/who-is-flying/hill
> 
> On *August 02, 2016*
> 
> _Today, with the declaration by the program’s biggest customer — the Air Force — that the aircraft is ready for combat, many of those criticisms will fade into the past. The official declaration of Initial Operational Capability (IOC) is what Loren Thompson, a top defense consultant, calls “a turning point for the program.”_
> 
> http://breakingdefense.com/2016/08/...a-ioc-major-milestone-for-biggest-us-program/
> 
> Now, a new Pentagon report suggests that the futuristic fighter jet still has hundreds of deficiencies and *won’t be ready for ready for full combat testing until 2019.*
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/the-f-35-amazingly-has-even-more-problems-than-we-thoug-1791285476
> 
> Understood anything ?
> 
> 
> 
> So even an aircraft which has nearly obtained FOC isn't 'ready' ?



So the F-35 was declared to be in service, and then later found to be deficient. Does that make it ok for Hindustan to follow the same path and declare the LCA Tejas ready for service when it is still undergoing its certifications?

Why do you keep trolling?


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> So the F-35 was declared to be in service, and then later found to be deficient.



Are you stupid or do you do this to annoy me ?

_Initial operating capability or Initial operational capability (IOC) is the state achieved when a capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form. The term is often used in government or military procurement._
_
Declaration of an initial operating capability may imply that the capability will be developed in the future, for example by modifications or adjustments to improve the system's performance, deployment of greater numbers of systems (perhaps of different types), or testing and training that permit wider application of the capability.
_

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## DarX

gslv mk3 said:


> Are you stupid or do you do this to annoy me ?
> 
> _Initial operating capability or Initial operational capability (IOC) is the state achieved when a capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form. The term is often used in government or military procurement.
> 
> Declaration of an initial operating capability may imply that the capability will be developed in the future, for example by modifications or adjustments to improve the system's performance, deployment of greater numbers of systems (perhaps of different types), or testing and training that permit wider application of the capability._



I quoted your own posts but it seems like you live to fool yourself.


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## gslv mk3

DarX said:


> I quoted your own posts but it seems like you live to fool yourself.



Blah blah blah...

Learn about what IOC is first.


----------



## BABA AGHORI

SingaporeGuy said:


> pakistan jf17 is to pick off targets in india after the bombing run from j20 , fc31 + long range bombers


That's cute.. A front line fighterJF17 have a very amazing job to do...Anyways... Let someone see the famous morning with J20, FC31 + long range bombers 1st...

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## SingaporeGuy

BABA AGHORI said:


> That's cute.. A front line fighterJF17 have a very amazing job to do...Anyways... Let someone see the famous morning with J20, FC31 + long range bombers 1st...



no worries.

New delhi only 1/2 hour flight from china, max 500km from chinese border

Normal scud missile range also can hit from tibet.

Not that i want to say this but why would anyone even be proud of a 4G aircraft? Why are there even people here celebrating this plane


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## ranadd

SingaporeGuy said:


> no worries.
> 
> New delhi only 1/2 hour flight from china, max 500km from chinese border
> 
> Normal scud missile range also can hit from tibet.
> 
> Not that i want to say this but why would anyone even be proud of a 4G aircraft? Why are there even people here celebrating this plane



I suggest you to take a look at terrain maps once in a while before making comments out of your ***.

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## BABA AGHORI

SingaporeGuy said:


> no worries.
> 
> New delhi only 1/2 hour flight from china, max 500km from chinese border
> 
> Normal scud missile range also can hit from tibet.
> 
> Not that i want to say this but why would anyone even be proud of a 4G aircraft? Why are there even people here celebrating this plane


ha ha cheerleaders are now invited to play the game... game has met a new low 
. not for first time though.

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## SingaporeGuy

ranadd said:


> I suggest you to take a look at terrain maps once in a while before making comments out of your ***.



Enemy fighter planes can just fly low blend with mountainous curvature and hide on radar on uttarakhand.

once emerge from there 300km from delhi, the bombers will just mincemeat ur capital

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## ranadd

SingaporeGuy said:


> Enemy fighter planes can just fly low blend with mountainous curvature and hide on radar on uttarakhand.
> 
> once emerge from there 300km from delhi, the bombers will just mincemeat ur capital



Once again, I suggest you to read about aerial warfare. There is a reason why China shit bricks about CPEC and malacca strait.


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## Han Patriot

SingaporeGuy said:


> no worries.
> 
> New delhi only 1/2 hour flight from china, max 500km from chinese border
> 
> Normal scud missile range also can hit from tibet.
> 
> Not that i want to say this but why would anyone even be proud of a 4G aircraft? Why are there even people here celebrating this plane


I don't think China will attack Delhi, but Tezpur will definitely be annihilated, we can just sit in Lhasa and launch our long range cruise missiles. We won't be using ballistic missile which would have triggered international condemnation. Just use cruise missile Tomahawk style, lob in a few, destroy Tezpur then aim for the new roads and railways in the chicken neck area. You pratically cut off the whole NE from India. We have the upperhand in Tibet plateau which is the higher ground, put in the light tanks and AH-4 and walla.


----------



## DarX

ranadd said:


> Once again, I suggest you to read about aerial warfare. There is a reason why China shit bricks about CPEC and malacca strait.



Haha. So others should have to talk logic, but you Hindustanis have carte blanche to talk nonsense?



Han Patriot said:


> I don't think China will attack Delhi, but Tezpur will definitely be annihilated, we can just sit in Lhasa and launch our long range cruise missiles. We won't be using ballistic missile which would have triggered international condemnation. Just use cruise missile Tomahawk style, lob in a few, destroy Tezpur then aim for the new roads and railways in the chicken neck area. You pratically cut off the whole NE from India. We have the upperhand in Tibet plateau which is the higher ground, put in the light tanks and AH-4 and walla.



Man why are we even discussing of ways to deal with the LCA Tejas? They haven't been able to complete its testing as yet, and have only renamed the prototype unarmed planes as "serial production" as an eyewash for the general Hindustani public. If it was only the LCA Tejas we had to face, even the A-5 Fantan can bomb Delhi, while all the LCA Tejas would be able to do is "ram" the opponent.


----------



## ashok mourya

DarX said:


> Lol. So it can fire its gun before it has even started its first gun firing trials? And it has the capability to fire Beyond Visual Range Missiles and Precision guided munitions, before its internal gun was ever tested. I wonder who you are trying to fool.


----------



## X_Killer

DarX said:


> Haha. So its not in service as a fighter until it gets the FOC? Seems to contradict your earlier statements Troll.


Till now, India produced more than 20 LCAs including TD, PV, LSP & SP.
out of which Production Starting from SP-1 is only intended for IAF services.
And for you slow progressive troll mind, I would like to tell you that SP-1 to SP-20 are IOC LCAs or TEJAS MK1 which will be later upgraded to FOC specifications.

Please don't put too much pressure on your mind to contradict anything. As I cleared above that only Airframes starting from SP-1 are produced for IAF services.

Also, please don't compare LCA TEJAS with a Chinese metallic box.

Have a good day

Cheers



DarX said:


> Like I said earlier, I wonder who you're trying to fool with this. But it does seem like you think trolling is your contribution to your country.


With this fool techniques PAF lost its 2 jf-17 along with both pilots.
RIP pilots.
If you guys got everything as per proper check and certificates than you may save those pilots. Both died due to fixed seats.



DarX said:


> The JF-17 on the other hand has succeeded in replacing the PAF's older planes, which means it has done what it was supposed to do.


So, according to you, jf-17 is only intended to replace oldies of PAF. You guys can also opt for gliders. Or we can say it as hi-tech glider.



SingaporeGuy said:


> Not that i want to say this but why would anyone even be proud of a 4G aircraft? Why are there even people here celebrating this plane


I also think in the same line.
Why would anyone even be proud of a 3G Aircraft ?
Note: initial variant of jf-17 is not even count in the list of 4G jets


----------



## MULUBJA

Han Patriot said:


> I don't think China will attack Delhi, but Tezpur will definitely be annihilated, we can just sit in Lhasa and launch our long range cruise missiles. We won't be using ballistic missile which would have triggered international condemnation. Just use cruise missile Tomahawk style, lob in a few, destroy Tezpur then aim for the new roads and railways in the chicken neck area. You pratically cut off the whole NE from India. We have the upperhand in Tibet plateau which is the higher ground, put in the light tanks and AH-4 and walla.



Those shity subsonic missiles shall be shot down and an unstoppable Brahmos strike shall follow with Sub meter accuracy rendering all assets and infrastructure in 600 KM from the bordering area totally useless with chinese forces cutoff totally from logistic supply and shall become sitting duck to be targeted with Indian bombers.


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> I don't think China will attack Delhi, but Tezpur will definitely be annihilated, we can just sit in Lhasa and launch our long range cruise missiles. We won't be using ballistic missile which would have triggered international condemnation. Just use cruise missile Tomahawk style, lob in a few, destroy Tezpur then aim for the new roads and railways in the chicken neck area. You pratically cut off the whole NE from India. We have the upperhand in Tibet plateau which is the higher ground, put in the light tanks and AH-4 and walla.



Stupidity at its top. Cheers.

Why don't these guys think, that none of the Indian forward bases are without air defence cover.

For once you fired your so called LRCM (which will be intercepted), how can you stop the Indian retaliation ( primarily BRAHMOS, which are already deployed there)

I don't think, each and every guy from our northern nation loves to do Warmongering.


----------



## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> Stupidity at its top. Cheers.
> 
> Why don't these guys think, that none of the Indian forward bases are without air defence cover.
> 
> For once you fired your so called LRCM (which will be intercepted), how can you stop the Indian retaliation ( primarily BRAHMOS, which are already deployed there)
> 
> I don't think, each and every guy from our northern nation loves to do Warmongering.


Using a short range supersonic missile for land attack? LOL. You can intercept ballistic missiles, cruise missile I don't think so.



MULUBJA said:


> Those shity subsonic missiles shall be shot down and an unstoppable Brahmos strike shall follow with Sub meter accuracy rendering all assets and infrastructure in 600 KM from the bordering area totally useless with chinese forces cutoff totally from logistic supply and shall become sitting duck to be targeted with Indian bombers.


Another Indian guy is saying India is going to use a supersonic short range missile for land attack. Brilliant.


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Using a short range supersonic missile for land attack? LOL. You can intercept ballistic missiles, cruise missile I don't think so.


Still too much reluctant to accept the truth.
Be happy with your stupid dreams. But stop warmongering.


----------



## SingaporeGuy

X_Killer said:


> Till now, India produced more than 20 LCAs including TD, PV, LSP & SP.
> out of which Production Starting from SP-1 is only intended for IAF services.
> And for you slow progressive troll mind, I would like to tell you that SP-1 to SP-20 are IOC LCAs or TEJAS MK1 which will be later upgraded to FOC specifications.
> 
> Please don't put too much pressure on your mind to contradict anything. As I cleared above that only Airframes starting from SP-1 are produced for IAF services.
> 
> Also, please don't compare LCA TEJAS with a Chinese metallic box.
> 
> Have a good day
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> With this fool techniques PAF lost its 2 jf-17 along with both pilots.
> RIP pilots.
> If you guys got everything as per proper check and certificates than you may save those pilots. Both died due to fixed seats.
> 
> 
> So, according to you, jf-17 is only intended to replace oldies of PAF. You guys can also opt for gliders. Or we can say it as hi-tech glider.
> 
> 
> I also think in the same line.
> Why would anyone even be proud of a 3G Aircraft ?
> Note: initial variant of jf-17 is not even count in the list of 4G jets


To be honest, JF-17 is much better investment than hal tejas. JF17 is equal to a F-16C/D in capability

HAL tejas costs 97 million per piece for the latest variant.

While JF17 is only 1/3 the price. 

Also, J-20 is probably only $20 million USD more.
No one knows what is a HAL Tejas capable of


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> To be honest, JF-17 is much better investment than hal tejas.
> 
> HAL tejas costs 97 million per piece for the latest variant.
> 
> While JF17 is only 1/3 the price.
> 
> Also, J-20 is probably only $20 million USD more.


really.. who gave you this price?


----------



## SingaporeGuy

AnnoyingOrange said:


> really.. who gave you this price?



602.71 crore for a mark IA tejas that is outdated as we speak


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## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> 602.71 crore for a mark IA tejas that is outdated as we speak




Get your facts right: http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-fighter-at-rs-162-crore-114011100829_1.html


----------



## SingaporeGuy

X_Killer said:


> Still too much reluctant to accept the truth.
> Be happy with your stupid dreams. But stop warmongering.



The only good investment is brahmos.

but china has many missiles better than brahmos


----------



## MULUBJA

Han Patriot said:


> Using a short range supersonic missile for land attack? LOL. You can intercept ballistic missiles, cruise missile I don't think so.
> 
> 
> Another Indian guy is saying India is going to use a supersonic short range missile for land attack. Brilliant.



Why , You guys have monopoly of using sub sonic missile and we can not retaliate with supersonic missile? If you use any subsonic missile than at least 30 to 50 time higher kinetic energy missile shall come to you at a speed four time higher than yours.



SingaporeGuy said:


> The only good investment is brahmos.
> 
> but china has many missiles better than brahmos



Many missile better than Brahmos? Which are they?


----------



## SingaporeGuy

AnnoyingOrange said:


> Get your facts right



Im talking about the Mark IA


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> Im talking about the Mark IA


Mark 1A is 220 Crore... Indian Rupees..

Google it and find out.


----------



## AKD

SingaporeGuy said:


> 602.71 crore for a mark IA tejas that is outdated as we speak


With HMD, HOBS, BVR , AESA , in flight refueling, CFC the plane is outdated. Then i wonder the tincan jf with aluminum body and mmr radar will be Ancient.

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## SingaporeGuy

MULUBJA said:


> Why , You guys have monopoly of using sub sonic missile and we can not retaliate with supersonic missile? If you use any subsonic missile than at least 30 to 50 time higher kinetic energy missile shall come to you at a speed four time higher than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> Many missile better than Brahmos? Which are they?



There r submarine launched, air launched, anti ballistic missile, surface to surface, anti ship variants etc.

DF41 is a missile that is longest range ever in e world



AKD said:


> With HMD, HOBS, BVR , AESA , in flight refueling, CFC the plane is outdated. Then i wonder the tincan jf with aluminum body and mmr radar will be Ancient.



Its not stealth.

China has J20 that is very similar perhaps 95% of F22 and all u have is hal tejas


----------



## MULUBJA

SingaporeGuy said:


> There r submarine launched, air launched, anti ballistic missile, surface to surface, anti ship variants etc.
> 
> DF41 is a missile that is longest range ever in e world



Brahmos alone can perform all roles except anti ballastic missile role. All of your missiles are as good as your J series planes and range is stated with very low payload to show range higher. None of them are world class missile and has the accuracy of what Indian missiles have.


----------



## SingaporeGuy

MULUBJA said:


> Brahmos alone can perform all roles except anti ballastic missile role. All of your missiles are as good as your J series planes and range is stated with very low payload to show range higher. None of them are world class missile and has the accuracy of what Indian missiles have.



all ur hardware are overpriced russian export tech, how good can it get?

u all paid over a billion for a soviet tech era aircraft carrier



MULUBJA said:


> Brahmos alone can perform all roles except anti ballastic missile role. All of your missiles are as good as your J series planes and range is stated with very low payload to show range higher. None of them are world class missile and has the accuracy of what Indian missiles have.



Lets face it.

Corruption is widespread in ur area.

What costs $1 becomes $2 hence a $50 billion usd budget becomee $25 billion


----------



## MULUBJA

SingaporeGuy said:


> all ur hardware are overpriced russian export tech, how good can it get?
> 
> u all paid over a billion for a soviet tech era aircraft carrier



You took 14 years to furnish an Ukraine aircraft carrier to make it operational and immediately its engine failed. It is not worth traing now. You can just keep it on your sea shore and be happy that you have the one.


----------



## AKD

SingaporeGuy said:


> There r submarine launched, air launched, anti ballistic missile, surface to surface, anti ship variants etc.
> 
> DF41 is a missile that is longest range ever in e world
> 
> 
> 
> Its not stealth.
> 
> China has J20 that is very similar perhaps 95% of F22 and all u have is hal tejas


Yea AMCA research was done by God and then delivered to ADA right.


----------



## MULUBJA

SingaporeGuy said:


> all ur hardware are overpriced russian export tech, how good can it get?
> 
> u all paid over a billion for a soviet tech era aircraft carrier
> 
> 
> 
> Lets face it.
> 
> Corruption is widespread in ur area.
> 
> What costs $1 becomes $2 hence a $50 billion usd budget becomee $25 billion


from Where does corruption comes in? CPC is the most corrupt regime in the world.


----------



## SingaporeGuy

MULUBJA said:


> from Where does corruption comes in? CPC is the most corrupt regime in the world.



but at least their country progresses economically.

India regressed esp since 1960 both started same GDP level but one became 5 time richer

#whathappened


----------



## kmc_chacko

SingaporeGuy said:


> China has J20 that is very similar perhaps 95% of F22 and all u have is hal tejas



Why to limit till 95% make it 100% we believe you 

Tejas is to replace Mig-21s and its fulfilling its requirements.


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> but at least their country progresses economically.
> 
> India regressed esp since 1960 both started same GDP level but one became 5 time richer
> 
> #whathappened


With a debt to GDP ratio of 300 Percent.... give me that kind of leverage... I will turn Africa into a heaven.


----------



## SingaporeGuy

AKD said:


> Yea AMCA research was done by God and then delivered to ADA right.



Dont bother.

China filed more patents than the united states


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> Dont bother.
> 
> China filed more patents than the united states


Applying for patents and getting them are two different things....


----------



## SingaporeGuy

AnnoyingOrange said:


> With a debt to GDP ratio of 300 Percent.... give me that kind of leverage... I will turn Africa into a heaven.



Every country have domestic and external debt , dont be stupid



AnnoyingOrange said:


> Applying for patents and getting them are two different things....



Thats why india always lag behind.

If ur mentality is the same. China puts its focus on overtaking USA u all put ur focus on fighting pakistan hence wrong goals = failure as a nation


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

SingaporeGuy said:


> Every country have domestic and external debt , dont be stupid


China is the only developing country with a debt to GDP ratio of 300%... and dont even get me started on the Ghost cities... and fake invoicing.. and shadow banks...

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## aftab_s81

AKD said:


> With HMD, HOBS, BVR , AESA , in flight refueling, CFC the plane is outdated. Then i wonder the tincan jf with aluminum body and mmr radar will be Ancient.


Why are u guys quarrelling? Tejas achieved its goals while JFT did its own, although similar aircrafts but entirely different programs. I thought the thread is to update about Tejas progress.

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## AKD

aftab_s81 said:


> Why are u guys quarrelling? Tejas achieved its goals while JFT did its own, although similar aircrafts but entirely different programs. I thought the thread is to update about Tejas progress.


Yes the thread is for updates but that Singapore guy derailed it completely


----------



## SingaporeGuy

AnnoyingOrange said:


> China is the only developing country with a debt to GDP ratio of 300%... and dont even get me started on the Ghost cities... and fake invoicing.. and shadow banks...



Thats leveraging.

Empty cities are better than zero cities


----------



## eldamar

AKD said:


> Yes the thread is for updates but that Singapore guy derailed it completely



The other dude *willingly* chose to actively-engage in this so-called 'derailing'


----------



## X_Killer

AnnoyingOrange said:


> really.. who gave you this price?


They bought it in their dreams when they found their jet equivalent to rusted iron



AnnoyingOrange said:


> really.. who gave you this price?


They bought it in their dreams when they found their jet equivalent to rusted iron


----------



## ranadd

eldarlmari said:


> The other dude *willingly* chose to actively-engage in this so-called 'derailing'



The other dude is just you. You post biased information about Indian projects in Indian subforums. The other dudes corrected you.

If Indian products are sub par and Indians are delusional, let them. Why are you so disturbed? 

Because you like to troll and derail.


----------



## Stag112

Guys there is no Singaporean guy, just the way there is no khalistani guy who loves aurangzeb or tamil nationalist who does not speak tamil or a dutch guy cheerleading CPEC or a china only loving german guy here.

He is a chini or pakistani troll and we are feeding him.

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## X_Killer

SingaporeGuy said:


> Im talking about the Mark IA


Visit your favourite portal for LCA Mk1A price.
http://quwa.org/2016/11/07/new-delhi-orders-83-hal-tejas-light-combat-aircraft

LCA Mk1A is approximately $32million per unit



aftab_s81 said:


> Why are u guys quarrelling? Tejas achieved its goals while JFT did its own, although similar aircrafts but entirely different programs. I thought the thread is to update about Tejas progress.


We have a guy named Singaporeguy who likes to troll LCA Project with fake and stupid facts.
I don't know why biased #admin is too much reluctant and leverage to these trollers who likes to derail this thread.


----------



## Sliver

what Indian made munitions are going to be on the fighter?


----------



## eldamar

ranadd said:


> The other dude is just you. You post biased information about Indian projects in Indian subforums. The other dudes corrected you.
> 
> If Indian products are sub par and Indians are delusional, let them. Why are you so disturbed?
> 
> Because you like to troll and derail.



me? what did i post in THIS thread taht constitutes 'derailing'? just because i pointed out AnnoyingOrange willingly engaged SingaporeanGuy?


----------



## X_Killer

eldarlmari said:


> me? what did i post in THIS thread taht constitutes 'derailing'? just because i pointed out AnnoyingOrange willingly engaged SingaporeanGuy?


This reply is also irrelevant for this thread.
If you have anything to discuss anything particularly with someone than you should start a conversation with him/her.


----------



## ranadd

eldarlmari said:


> me? what did i post in THIS thread taht constitutes 'derailing'? just because i pointed out AnnoyingOrange willingly engaged SingaporeanGuy?



Sorry. I was referring to the other person. Wrong quote. my bad.


----------



## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> Still too much reluctant to accept the truth.
> Be happy with your stupid dreams. But stop warmongering.


Chill, no need to call people stupid. I am not warmongering, war is part and parcel of being a respected country. India did it, China did it. Please don't look at it at some kind of genocide against India, sometimes if agreement is not achieved, war is the only solution to settle it.



MULUBJA said:


> Why , You guys have monopoly of using sub sonic missile and we can not retaliate with supersonic missile? If you use any subsonic missile than at least 30 to 50 time higher kinetic energy missile shall come to you at a speed four time higher than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> Many missile better than Brahmos? Which are they?


If only you understood what you were saying. Nobody uses supersonic antiship missiles to attack land targets. You ever wonder why the missiles are supersonic in the first place? =)

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## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> If only you understood what you were saying. Nobody uses supersonic antiship missiles to attack land targets. You ever wonder why the missiles are supersonic in the first place? =)



If only you were upto date about the topics you speak of. India will.

Brahmos happen to have multiple variants for quite few years now. Sea, Land and soon, Air. 

Speed is used to overwhelm the defense systems, on any platform.


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## Han Patriot

ranadd said:


> If only you were upto date about the topics you speak of. India will.
> 
> Brahmos happen to have multiple variants for quite few years now. Sea, Land and soon, Air.
> 
> Speed is used to overwhelm the defense systems, on any platform.


OMG, another Indian is thinking to use supersonic missiles for land attack. Is brahmos your only missile, you can use it for every role it seems. Different missiles with different weight, firepower, range and speed all play different roles. You don't see Russian using Oniks for everything right? Common sense.


----------



## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> OMG, another Indian is thinking to use supersonic missiles for land attack. Is brahmos your only missile, you can use it for every role it seems. Different missiles with different weight, firepower, range and speed all play different roles. You don't see Russian using Oniks for everything right? Common sense.



Chinese.

Oniks is a antiship missile.

Brahmos is not a antiship missile alone. _*There are other variants.*_ Stop using chrome translate to understand.

Why is China showing DF21 when US shows them CBG?

But to your point, it will depend upon the Chinese strike formations. China does not have credible defense against Brahmos/Shaurya, if navy is in play _*swarm*_ as of now. No, don't get riled up, You just dont. So Brahmos maybe used to take out HV targets. Then cheap Prahar missiles.

Edit: Forgot Shaurya formations are in NE area. Added that reference. But likely, It is limited to naval engagements.

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## Han Patriot

ranadd said:


> Chinese.
> 
> Oniks is a antiship missile.
> 
> Brahmos is not a antiship missile alone. _*There are other variants.*_ Stop using chrome translate to understand.
> 
> Why is China showing DF21 when US shows them CBG?
> 
> But to your point, it will depend upon the Chinese strike formations. China does not have credible defense against Brahmos/Shaurya, if navy is in play _*swarm*_ as of now. No, don't get riled up, You just dont. So Brahmos maybe used to take out HV targets. Then cheap Prahar missiles.
> 
> Edit: Forgot Shaurya formations are in NE area. Added that reference. But likely, It is limited to naval engagements.


Brahmos is based on Oniks bhai, it is a watered down export version to satisfy MTCR. By your logic, Russians don't even need anything else, they can just use an antiship missile for all roles. =)


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## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> Brahmos is based on Oniks bhai, it is a watered down export version to satisfy MTCR. By your logic, Russians don't even need anything else, they can just use an antiship missile for all roles. =)



Who said it is not?

Type

Cruise missile
Air-launched cruise missile
Anti-ship missile
Land-attack missile
Surface-to-surface missile

Stop typing posts that does not make sense and to the point. Your rant about Brahmos will not be used is debunked.

Brahmos is based on Oniks. Brahmos have multiple variants now. _*Also, it WAS watered down. Not anymore*_. . _*Even Oniks have Land variant.*_

No one is here to make you believe otherwise. Stop wasting other peoples time.

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## Han Patriot

ranadd said:


> Who said it is not?
> 
> Type
> 
> Cruise missile
> Air-launched cruise missile
> Anti-ship missile
> Land-attack missile
> Surface-to-surface missile
> 
> Stop typing posts that does not make sense and to the point. Your rant about Brahmos will not be used is debunked.
> 
> Brahmos is based on Oniks. Brahmos have multiple variants now. _*Also, it WAS watered down. Not anymore*_. . _*Even Oniks have Land variant.*_
> 
> No one is here to make you believe otherwise. Stop wasting other peoples time.


Can you tell me Oniks surface to surface missile variant?


----------



## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> Can you tell me Oniks surface to surface missile variant?



K 300 Bastion system. _*Surface to Water.
*_
&

Brahmos S-to-S










_*
*_

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## Shivani87

@waz @WAJsal can you clean up this thread pls. This is a Tejas thread and the cheeni trolls here are talking everything BUT Tejas.

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## Han Patriot

ranadd said:


> K 300 Bastion system. _*Surface to Water.
> *_
> &
> 
> Brahmos S-to-S


I was asking a surface to surface version. Do you know why there isn't one, because genius, you don't need to go supersonic against static land targets. Understand? You can just use convetional long range subsonic cruise missiles. Against moving targets like a ship with anti missile defense, you need to go fast. Therefore, range is sacrificed.

The reason India is using Brahmos for everything is because that's the only thing she has. So she creates Brahmos this and that. Until Nirbhay is proven successful, that's all she has. India can't even produce simple subsonic cruise missiles. So only can use the Russian Brahmos.


----------



## vikata

aftab_s81 said:


> Why are u guys quarrelling? Tejas achieved its goals while JFT did its own, although similar aircrafts but entirely different programs. I thought the thread is to update about Tejas progress.


absolutely its got completely derailed

he


Stag112 said:


> Guys there is no Singaporean guy, just the way there is no khalistani guy who loves aurangzeb or tamil nationalist who does not speak tamil or a dutch guy cheerleading CPEC or a china only loving german guy here.
> 
> He is a chini or pakistani troll and we are feeding him.


 he is a pakistani who is perhaps too ashamed of his origin

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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Chill, no need to call people stupid. I am not warmongering, war is part and parcel of being a respected country. India did it, China did it. Please don't look at it at some kind of genocide against India, sometimes if agreement is not achieved, war is the only solution to settle it.



This is what your so called country impose on other countries.
You guys impose war on others and later declare unilateral ceasefire.
Taiwan is also one of the nation tired of bullying.


Han Patriot said:


> If only you understood what you were saying. Nobody uses supersonic antiship missiles to attack land targets. You ever wonder why the missiles are supersonic in the first place? =)


1st. Brahmos is not only a Anti-ship missile , there are other variants too.
2nd. Nobody used it because nobody has (except Russia)
3rd. You guys can use your Df-41 than sure we will use our Agni series instead of Brahmos.
4th. We use Anti-ship missile to destroy Karachi port during Operation Trident. ( This implies use of available resources is not a bad thing)


Suggestion: calm down and don't Warmongering
And stick with the thread, don't derail it

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## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> I was asking a surface to surface version. Do you know why there isn't one, because genius, you don't need to go supersonic against static land targets. Understand?



Meh, Chini trolls

http://www.janes.com/article/65517/russia-reveals-bastion-p-deployment-land-attack-role-in-syria



Han Patriot said:


> India can't even produce simple subsonic cruise missiles.



But we can produce a quasi ballistic SSM.



Sliver said:


> what Indian made munitions are going to be on the fighter?



Astra.



Han Patriot said:


> LOL. You can intercept ballistic missiles, cruise missile I don't think so.



says who ?


----------



## #hydra#

aftab_s81 said:


> Why are u guys quarrelling? Tejas achieved its goals while JFT did its own, although similar aircrafts but entirely different programs. I thought the thread is to update about Tejas progress.


I always said that jf17 is a better executed fighter program than LCA Tejas, which one is good out of these two only time will tell, in a possible future Indo Pak war. By paper specifications both have pros and constraints over each other.

And lastly I don't call anyone a false flagger based on his attitude towards India,but I think @SingaporeGuy is a a false flagger. Though Singapore is a tiny nation,it's human resources is of high standard,there is no way a stupid person like him born and brought up in Singapore.

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> This is what your so called country impose on other countries.
> You guys impose war on others and later declare unilateral ceasefire.
> Taiwan is also one of the nation tired of bullying.
> 
> 1st. Brahmos is not only a Anti-ship missile , there are other variants too.
> 2nd. Nobody used it because nobody has (except Russia)
> 3rd. You guys can use your Df-41 than sure we will use our Agni series instead of Brahmos.
> 4th. We use Anti-ship missile to destroy Karachi port during Operation Trident. ( This implies use of available resources is not a bad thing)
> 
> 
> Suggestion: calm down and don't Warmongering
> And stick with the thread, don't derail it


It's different missiles with different roles at different cost. India had not choice but a Russian Brahmos, so she is using it for everything. I shall stop here since I have explained this many times why you don't use supersonic missiles to attack static targets. It's just plain stupid. It's like using precision laser to cut fire wood.


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> It's different missiles with different roles at different cost. India had not choice but a Russian Brahmos, so she is using it for everything. I shall stop here since I have explained this many times why you don't use supersonic missiles to attack static targets. It's just plain stupid. It's like using precision laser to cut fire wood.


Each and every fact from China is always biased and incorrect.
Either its case of Brahmos or Sikkim issue.

Open your dumb mind and go-to some OFFICIAL sources to find that 
*Brahmos is an INDO-RUSSIAN project.

For Indian case, IA has its own war strategy to use our Missiles.
*
You may visit http://brahmos.com
http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=9
http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

Above links may refresh your mind and do fungus treatment.


----------



## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> Each and every fact from China is always biased and incorrect.
> Either its case of Brahmos or Sikkim issue.
> 
> Open your dumb mind and go-to some OFFICIAL sources to find that
> *Brahmos is an INDO-RUSSIAN project.
> 
> For Indian case, IA has its own war strategy to use our Missiles.
> *
> You may visit http://brahmos.com
> http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=9
> http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10
> 
> Above links may refresh your mind and do fungus treatment.


With all due respect, you know deep in your heart this is just another milking scheme by the Russian. Let's put it this way, if there is a missile called CHIMOS and it is a so called 'indigenous' Chinese Russian missile with most of the key subsystems by Russia, do you think the Chinese will be proud of it? They will in their minds be full of anger because of their inability to produce it indigenously. Until a few years ago when domestic engines started being used in J-10s, no Chinese is really fully proud of the J-10.


----------



## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> Let's put it this way, if there is a missile called CHIMOS and it is a so called 'indigenous' Chinese Russian missile with most of the key subsystems by Russia, do you think the Chinese will be proud of it?



Nice try, but you wouldn't say that about your ''Kamov Z 10'', do you ?

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## Han Patriot

gslv mk3 said:


> Nice try, but you wouldn't say that about your ''Kamov Z 10'', do you ?


Well if we still need to import all the key subsystems, then I would agree, but Z-10 is completely manufactured in China now. I had been reiterating the same point over and over again, China beg, borrow, steal, spy, copy, clone, absorb, learn, and innovate. We had been doing it for decades and look at where we are today.


----------



## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> Well if we still need to import all the key subsystems, then I would agree, but Z-10 is completely manufactured in China now.



Same with the Brahmos. Nearly 70% of it is made here & we are increasing it to even higher levels

BTW is the WZ-16 indigenous ?

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## Han Patriot

gslv mk3 said:


> Same with the Brahmos. Nearly 70% of it is made here & we are increasing it to even higher levels
> 
> BTW is the WZ-16 indigenous ?


WZ-16 is not fully indigenous yet, we are still cloning it but WZ-9 is albeit with lower power. I am not sure if your 70% figure is accountable, but well you can choose to believe what you like.


----------



## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> I am not sure if your 70% figure is accountable, but well you can choose to believe what you like.



I read that some time back in an interview with Brahmos CEO.



Han Patriot said:


> WZ-16 is not fully indigenous yet, we are still cloning it but WZ-9 is albeit with lower power.



It is a co developent with Safran, similiar to the Brahmos.

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## Han Patriot

gslv mk3 said:


> I read that some time back in an interview with Brahmos CEO.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a co developent with Safran, similiar to the Brahmos.


Brahmos co-developed? Other than $ what technology can you offer the Russians? LOL. Yup, another Indian claim from an Indian source. Where do I even begin.


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> With all due respect, you know deep in your heart this is just another milking scheme by the Russian. Let's put it this way, if there is a missile called CHIMOS and it is a so called 'indigenous' Chinese Russian missile with most of the key subsystems by Russia, do you think the Chinese will be proud of it? They will in their minds be full of anger because of their inability to produce it indigenously. Until a few years ago when domestic engines started being used in J-10s, no Chinese is really fully proud of the J-10.


LoL,
Yup we know deep in our heart that you guys transferred your failed jet Project to your most lovable neighbour.

Anyways, Brahmos is a JV and has more than 60% of Indigenous content. 
Most important, I'm not impressed with your so called fully Indigenous j-10.

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## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> Brahmos co-developed? Other than $ what technology can you offer the Russians? LOL. Yup, another Indian claim from an Indian source.



The answer is in your post- what was the Yakhont originally ? Do you need a source from China on the level of indigenization on Brahmos ?

How Did Ardiden series turbofan become a JV ?

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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> China beg, borrow, steal, spy, copy, clone, absorb, learn, and innovate. We had been doing it for decades and look at where we are today.


That's why we call China a BEGGAR, THIEF AND LAW ABIDING NATION.
I don't know why you guys claim yourself as self-respected. Shameful

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> LoL,
> Yup we know deep in our heart that you guys transferred your failed jet Project to your most lovable neighbour.
> 
> Anyways, Brahmos is a JV and has more than 60% of Indigenous content.
> Most important, I'm not impressed with your so called fully Indigenous j-10.


Your other friend just told me it was 70% indigenous, now you are telling me a different figure. The same way Indians kill 30 Chinese then 300 Chinese and now 340 Chinese in Sikkim? Not sure why you called JF-17 a failed project, we believe it is enough to achieve parity with LCA, that's why we transferred it to Pakistan. You can choose to believe the 2 or 3 inducted LCA as more advanced, I can't stop you. =)



X_Killer said:


> That's why we call China a BEGGAR, THIEF AND LAW ABIDING NATION.
> I don't know why you guys claim yourself as self-respected. Shameful


You can call us whatever you want, the fact remains, India is technologically, economically and socially backward compared to China. In a conventional war without US intervention, India will lose the war, not just because of the sheer quantity of armaments or equipment, but because China can sustain a prolonged war.


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Your other friend just told me it was 70% indigenous, now you are telling me a different figure. The same way Indians kill 30 Chinese then 300 Chinese and now 340 Chinese in Sikkim? Not sure why you called JF-17 a failed project, we believe it is enough to achieve parity with LCA, that's why we transferred it to Pakistan. You can choose to believe the 2 or 3 inducted LCA as more advanced, I can't stop you. =)


1st. I said more than 60% and gslv mentioned it as upto 70%, than why you get confused? Go back to school dude.
2nd. Thank you to mention the failed Project name that you guys transferred to Pak instead of Induct in PLAAF.
3rd. China can't hide its blood loving nature anywhere. anyways you must change your habit this time.



Han Patriot said:


> In a conventional war without US intervention, India will lose the war, not just because of the sheer quantity of armaments or equipment, but because China can sustain a prolonged war.


You're very resistant to avoid your bad habits.
I'm again repeating my words, *STOP WARMONGERING.*

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> 1st. I said more than 60% and gslv mentioned it as upto 70%, than why you get confused? Go back to school dude.
> 2nd. Thank you to mention the failed Project name that you guys transferred to Pak instead of Induct in PLAAF.
> 3rd. China can't hide its blood loving nature anywhere. anyways you must change your habit this time.
> 
> 
> You're very resistant to avoid your bad habits.
> I'm again repeating my words, *STOP WARMONGERING.*



1)Me going back to school? Those are two different figures, what metrics are you even using to get 70% and 60%?
2) Of course we have better J-10s, J-20s, J-31, J-11 than JF-17 but Pakistan needed cheaper and less advanced plane to face LCA, there is no point killing a bird with a bazooka right?
3) I am not warmongering, there is no war if India submits to China. =)


----------



## AnnoyingOrange

Han Patriot said:


> 1)Me going back to school? Those are two different figures, what metrics are you even using to get 70% and 60%?
> 2) Of course we have better J-10s, J-20s, J-31, J-11 than JF-17 but Pakistan needed cheaper and less advanced plane to face LCA, there is no point killing a bird with a bazooka right?
> 3) I am not warmongering, there is no war if India submits to China. =)


This is how Chinese measure Radar power:

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## gslv mk3

Han Patriot said:


> 1)Me going back to school? Those are two different figures, what metrics are you even using to get 70% and 60%?



How does the claim more than 60% contradict with the term 70%, genius ?

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## Han Patriot

AnnoyingOrange said:


> This is how Chinese measure Radar power:


Hi Orange, you are back. Yah that's how we see things after we toast those plane.



gslv mk3 said:


> How does the claim more than 60% contradict with the term 70%, genius ?


More than 60% can mean 90% too right, I am questioning the metrics you are using to calculate it.


----------



## X_Killer

AnnoyingOrange said:


> This is how Chinese measure Radar power:


Wow, J-20 is tracking a PIG
Really? Donno what Chinese think in their dreams



Han Patriot said:


> More than 60% can mean 90% too right, I am questioning the metrics you are using to calculate it.


For that you must go back to school.


----------



## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> Wow, J-20 is tracking a PIG
> Really? Donno what Chinese think in their dreams
> 
> 
> For that you must go back to school.


Not to insult you, but that's how we view LCA. =). Roast pig.

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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> 2) Of course we have better J-10s, J-20s, J-31, J-11 than JF-17 but Pakistan needed cheaper and less advanced plane to face LCA, there is no point killing a bird with a bazooka right?


That's why you transferred your junk to your beloved friend. 
You make my day, dude



Han Patriot said:


> 3) I am not warmongering, there is no war if India submits to China. =)


You must try. It'll clear your all doubts and hopefully you too.
CHEERS



Han Patriot said:


> Not to insult you, but that's how we view LCA. =). Roast pig.


Previously, you guys said LCA as stealthy (very small size) and you're saying it as PIG. 
Stupid
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/lca-...s-due-to-its-small-size-chinese-media.460438/

But I like ROASTED PIGS,


----------



## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> That's why you transferred your junk to your beloved friend.
> You make my day, dude
> 
> 
> You must try. It'll clear your all doubts and hopefully you too.
> CHEERS


It is essentially designed to counter LCA cheaply, no point using J-10s on LCA.



X_Killer said:


> That's why you transferred your junk to your beloved friend.
> You make my day, dude
> 
> 
> You must try. It'll clear your all doubts and hopefully you too.
> CHEERS
> 
> 
> Previously, you guys said LCA as stealthy (very small size) and you're saying it as PIG.
> Stupid
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/lca-...s-due-to-its-small-size-chinese-media.460438/
> 
> But I like ROASTED PIGS,


LCA stealthy? OK....


----------



## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> It is essentially designed to counter LCA cheaply, no point using J-10s on LCA.
> 
> 
> LCA stealthy? OK....


But as you fooled your partners , they are presenting it as competitive with su-30's

Correct them, otherwise your junk may blew up in mid air



Han Patriot said:


> LCA stealthy? OK....


We know that it's STEALTHY but tell me the *meaning of PIG *in the below pic:


>


----------



## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> I was asking a surface to surface version. Do you know why there isn't one, because genius, you don't need to go supersonic against static land targets. Understand? You can just use convetional long range subsonic cruise missiles. Against moving targets like a ship with anti missile defense, you need to go fast. Therefore, range is sacrificed.
> 
> The reason India is using Brahmos for everything is because that's the only thing she has. So she creates Brahmos this and that. Until Nirbhay is proven successful, that's all she has. India can't even produce simple subsonic cruise missiles. So only can use the Russian Brahmos.



Chinese.

Speed is used to give the defense less time. It is not about moving targets.


----------



## DarX

X_Killer said:


> Till now, India produced more than 20 LCAs including TD, PV, LSP & SP.
> out of which Production Starting from SP-1 is only intended for IAF services.
> And for you slow progressive troll mind, I would like to tell you that SP-1 to SP-20 are IOC LCAs or TEJAS MK1 which will be later upgraded to FOC specifications.
> 
> Please don't put too much pressure on your mind to contradict anything. As I cleared above that only Airframes starting from SP-1 are produced for IAF services.



Haha. You have produced so many LCA Tejas's and it is still not ready for combat?



X_Killer said:


> Also, please don't compare LCA TEJAS with a Chinese metallic box



Of course we can't compare our "Chinese Metallic box" with your Indian plastic toy. Our JF-17 is ready for combat, while the LCA Tejas is not even as useful as a kid's water pistol.



X_Killer said:


> With this fool techniques PAF lost its 2 jf-17 along with both pilots.
> RIP pilots.
> If you guys got everything as per proper check and certificates than you may save those pilots. Both died due to fixed seats.



http://www.firstpost.com/india/two-...aid-they-suffered-fatal-injuries-3503031.html

With *this fool techniques IAF lost its SU-30* along with both pilots.
RIP pilots.
If you guys got everything as per proper check and certificates than you may save those pilots. *Both died* due to fixed seats.



X_Killer said:


> So, according to you, jf-17 is only intended to replace oldies of PAF. You guys can also opt for gliders. Or we can say it as hi-tech glider.



Both the JF-17 and LCA Tejas programs were initiated to mature as replacements for the older fighter jets of the air forces. While the JF-17 has successfully managed to do that, the LCA Tejas apparently has become a university science project for India. Perhaps you guys should give airplane development and import fighters. Or we can say you should import 4.5 generation gliders.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

DarX said:


> Haha. You have produced so many LCA Tejas's and it is still not ready for combat?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we can't compare our "Chinese Metallic box" with your Indian plastic toy. Our JF-17 is ready for combat, while the LCA Tejas is not even as useful as a kid's water pistol.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/india/two-...aid-they-suffered-fatal-injuries-3503031.html
> 
> With *this fool techniques IAF lost its SU-30* along with both pilots.
> RIP pilots.
> If you guys got everything as per proper check and certificates than you may save those pilots. *Both died* due to fixed seats.
> 
> 
> 
> Both the JF-17 and LCA Tejas programs were initiated to mature as replacements for the older fighter jets of the air forces. While the JF-17 has successfully managed to do that, the LCA Tejas apparently has become a university science project for India. Perhaps you guys should give airplane development and import fighters. Or we can say you should import 4.5 generation gliders.



JF 17 and LCA were 2 different projects with different agendas. JF 17 has still not achieved anything more than that the F7 PG has. It is yet to fire any kind of air to surface guided munition that the Mirage can. The only capability it has is to fire a select number of AAM and drop dumb bombs that even the F7 can do. JF 17 is still just a better managed program than the LCA. You needed quicker induction of the JF 17s because the Chinese F7 had lower airframe life comparitively. We were not obligated to induct an underperforming aircraft and the IAF chose to wait till the LCA can have everything before induction.


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## DarX

satishkumarcsc said:


> JF 17 and LCA were 2 different projects with different agendas. JF 17 has still not achieved anything more than that the F7 PG has. It is yet to fire any kind of air to surface guided munition that the Mirage can. The only capability it has is to fire a select number of AAM and drop dumb bombs that even the F7 can do. JF 17 is still just a better managed program than the LCA. You needed quicker induction of the JF 17s because the Chinese F7 had lower airframe life comparitively. We were not obligated to induct an underperforming aircraft and the IAF chose to wait till the LCA can have everything before induction.



I more or less agree with your point that the current versions of the JF-17 don't have much higher capabilities than the J-7PG they are replacing and they still have a long way to go before they truly become a 4th generation fighter jet. It is also a fact that the PAF urgently required fighter jets to replace their worn out legacy planes and so inducted the JF-17 as a matter of necessity.

But I do question the other part of your post. According to all of the articles I've read, the LCA Tejas was supposed to replace the MIGs as the main second line fighter bomber of the IAF. Not being able to induct them in a timely manner has led to the IAF's force levels falling to critical levels, and no less than the IAF chief has voiced concerns about this. The delay in the LCA Tejas has also forced the IAF to initiate the tender for large number of foreign single engined fighters to be built in India (these planes are also being lined up to replace the Migs). Now I don't think it is not illogical to think that if the LCA Tejas was available, the IAF could've saved the $20 billion that this new tender is expected to cost, and induct a much larger number of Dassault Rafales in its place.

So it seems like it wasn't only a matter of choice which led to the delay in the induction of the LCA Tejas into the IAF.


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## GuardianRED

DarX said:


> I more or less agree with your point that the current versions of the JF-17 don't have much higher capabilities than the J-7PG they are replacing and they still have a long way to go before they truly become a 4th generation fighter jet. It is also a fact that the PAF urgently required fighter jets to replace their worn out legacy planes and so inducted the JF-17 as a matter of necessity.
> 
> But I do question the other part of your post. According to all of the articles I've read, the LCA Tejas was supposed to replace the MIGs as the main second line fighter bomber of the IAF. Not being able to induct them in a timely manner has led to the IAF's force levels falling to critical levels, and no less than the IAF chief has voiced concerns about this. The delay in the LCA Tejas has also forced the IAF to initiate the tender for large number of foreign single engined fighters to be built in India (these planes are also being lined up to replace the Migs). Now I don't think it is not illogical to think that if the LCA Tejas was available, the IAF could've saved the $20 billion that this new tender is expected to cost, and induct a much larger number of Dassault Rafales in its place.
> 
> So it seems like it wasn't only a matter of choice which led to the delay in the induction of the LCA Tejas into the IAF.


Pal, stop making a joke of yourself!, when did an RFI become a tender???? .. Do some quality research before commenting!


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## satishkumarcsc

DarX said:


> I more or less agree with your point that the current versions of the JF-17 don't have much higher capabilities than the J-7PG they are replacing and they still have a long way to go before they truly become a 4th generation fighter jet. It is also a fact that the PAF urgently required fighter jets to replace their worn out legacy planes and so inducted the JF-17 as a matter of necessity.
> 
> But I do question the other part of your post. According to all of the articles I've read, the LCA Tejas was supposed to replace the MIGs as the main second line fighter bomber of the IAF. Not being able to induct them in a timely manner has led to the IAF's force levels falling to critical levels, and no less than the IAF chief has voiced concerns about this. The delay in the LCA Tejas has also forced the IAF to initiate the tender for large number of foreign single engined fighters to be built in India (these planes are also being lined up to replace the Migs). Now I don't think it is not illogical to think that if the LCA Tejas was available, the IAF could've saved the $20 billion that this new tender is expected to cost, and induct a much larger number of Dassault Rafales in its place.
> 
> So it seems like it wasn't only a matter of choice which led to the delay in the induction of the LCA Tejas into the IAF.



'LCA Tejas supposed to replace MiG 21' is a hype created by media. LCA Tejas was to build an ecosystem that can in future design and build a fighter aircraft in India was the stand of DRDO from the start. We just have an existing ecosystem to manufacture and assemble a fighter aircraft but designing and building is very difficult. I think you would have faced it in your school projects too. Whatever you imagined wont be possible because of either difficulty in acquiring things or poor finances.

According to me LCA in its MK1A avatar is the best that we can do with the aircraft. Everything happens slow as India is a reservation based country rather than a merit or distinction based country. Mediocrity is the mantra as in most of south asia where we take pride in working for our white masters. But still the LCA brought in Engine design, Avionics development, and a whole number of labs for each and every component. That is what LCA did. It is too little too late. And $20 billion invested in this will yeild more dividends in future compared to the $20 billion invested in Rafale.

LCA showed us our limitations and the big mouth that most of the people in the PSU have. They talk more and work less nowadays. Too much red tapism and committees formed for over seeing committees which are supposed to over see a bunch of people. This is what caused the LCA to be dragged on. It took only 8 months for the LCA twin seater to go from scratch to prototype because it had a very small group developing it and was directly overseen by the ADA chief. That is why the design departments are always small and focussed group...once it becomes bigger it drags its feet. Like they say 'Too many cooks spoil the broth'. That stays true for LCA.

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## DarX

GuardianRED said:


> Pal, stop making a joke of yourself!, when did an RFI become a tender???? .. Do some quality research before commenting!



Pal stop being pedantic. The RFI leads to a tender, unless the IAF is non-serious and just floats RFIs because it has nothing else to do!


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## GuardianRED

DarX said:


> Pal stop being pedantic. The RFI leads to a tender, unless the IAF is non-serious and just floats RFIs because it has nothing else to do!


Lol... It is called being Technical. Stop making A joke of yourself


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## DarX

satishkumarcsc said:


> 'LCA Tejas supposed to replace MiG 21' is a hype created by media. LCA Tejas was to build an ecosystem that can in future design and build a fighter aircraft in India was the stand of DRDO from the start. We just have an existing ecosystem to manufacture and assemble a fighter aircraft but designing and building is very difficult. I think you would have faced it in your school projects too. Whatever you imagined wont be possible because of either difficulty in acquiring things or poor finances.
> 
> According to me LCA in its MK1A avatar is the best that we can do with the aircraft. Everything happens slow as India is a reservation based country rather than a merit or distinction based country. Mediocrity is the mantra as in most of south asia where we take pride in working for our white masters. But still the LCA brought in Engine design, Avionics development, and a whole number of labs for each and every component. That is what LCA did. It is too little too late. And $20 billion invested in this will yeild more dividends in future compared to the $20 billion invested in Rafale.
> 
> LCA showed us our limitations and the big mouth that most of the people in the PSU have. They talk more and work less nowadays. Too much red tapism and committees formed for over seeing committees which are supposed to over see a bunch of people. This is what caused the LCA to be dragged on. It took only 8 months for the LCA twin seater to go from scratch to prototype because it had a very small group developing it and was directly overseen by the ADA chief. That is why the design departments are always small and focussed group...once it becomes bigger it drags its feet. Like they say 'Too many cooks spoil the broth'. That stays true for LCA.



Of course the LCA Tejas program has forced the creation of many local organisations in India which are now working towards the development of advanced equipment. There is no argument against that. It is a difficult process and all the progress up till now in this project is commendable. Those are things that any rational person would understand.

Pakistan has done well by keeping smaller targets and participating in a JV with the Chinese because that is what our resources allowed. India has gone for the larger target because it deemed that affordable and achievable.



GuardianRED said:


> Lol... It is called being Technical. Stop making A joke of yourself



Haha.. Too much of this phobia about "technicalities" has made a joke of the LCA Tejas program, and all of the other Indian ventures too.


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## satishkumarcsc

DarX said:


> Of course the LCA Tejas program has forced the creation of many local organisations in India which are now working towards the development of advanced equipment. There is no argument against that. It is a difficult process and all the progress up till now in this project is commendable. Those are things that any rational person would understand.
> 
> Pakistan has done well by keeping smaller targets and participating in a JV with the Chinese because that is what our resources allowed. India has gone for the larger target because it deemed that affordable and achievable.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha.. Too much of this phobia about "technicalities" has made a joke of the LCA Tejas program, and all of the other Indian ventures too.



Simple we had money and we knew we cant command respect on borrowed power and our economy permitted it. You had to take the route of JF 17 as that was the easier way out. I still won't call it a JV as most of the design was done by the CAC. Pakistan must rather focus on improving avionics and missile systems rather than the platform. Taking the Israeli path would be an easier task for you and end up making the J 31 a more customized version for Pakistan like how Israelis do with their F 16 and F 35s.

With the whole world moving towards Medium size combat aircrafts the Ligter airframes like the LCA, JF 17 and Gripen are becoming redundant. This is not the cold war where we will have bombers flying into airspace in huge numbers and since these aircrafts have piss poor range after a single engagement they would not have fuel to continue with the mission.

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## GuardianRED

DarX said:


> Of course the LCA Tejas program has forced the creation of many local organisations in India which are now working towards the development of advanced equipment. There is no argument against that. It is a difficult process and all the progress up till now in this project is commendable. Those are things that any rational person would understand.
> 
> Pakistan has done well by keeping smaller targets and participating in a JV with the Chinese because that is what our resources allowed. India has gone for the larger target because it deemed that affordable and achievable.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha.. Too much of this phobia about "technicalities" has made a joke of the LCA Tejas program, and all of the other Indian ventures too.


And the Making a Joke of yourself continues ... with many of the funny post of yours , u have zero info on any program in india. ... so please do more.... We all thank you for the Laughs!

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## DarX

GuardianRED said:


> And the Making a Joke of yourself continues ... with many of the funny post of yours , u have zero info on any program in india. ... so please do more.... We all thank you for the Laughs!



Laughing without reason is a classic defense mechanism.


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## GuardianRED

DarX said:


> Laughing without reason is a classic defense mechanism.


U do know that you are the creator of all the laughs .... thus that make you the life of the Party


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## Han Patriot

ranadd said:


> Chinese.
> 
> Speed is used to give the defense less time. It is not about moving targets.


You still don't get it, you don't use laser cutter to chop firewood. India has no choice coz they can't make an axe but only has a Russian laser cutter. You get what I mean?



X_Killer said:


> But as you fooled your partners , they are presenting it as competitive with su-30's
> 
> Correct them, otherwise your junk may blew up in mid air
> 
> 
> We know that it's STEALTHY but tell me the *meaning of PIG *in the below pic:


I can't force everyone to think like me, and it's only my own opinion. LCA is stealthy? Bro, seriously please be logical, it's looks like a mini mirage.... I will give praise when it is due but LCA is definitely not worthy of my acknowledgement.


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## X_Killer

DarX said:


> I more or less agree with your point that the current versions of the JF-17 don't have much higher capabilities than the J-7PG they are replacing and they still have a long way to go before they truly become a 4th generation fighter jet. It is also a fact that the PAF urgently required fighter jets to replace their worn out legacy planes and so inducted the JF-17 as a matter of necessity.
> 
> But I do question the other part of your post. According to all of the articles I've read, the LCA Tejas was supposed to replace the MIGs as the main second line fighter bomber of the IAF. Not being able to induct them in a timely manner has led to the IAF's force levels falling to critical levels, and no less than the IAF chief has voiced concerns about this. The delay in the LCA Tejas has also forced the IAF to initiate the tender for large number of foreign single engined fighters to be built in India (these planes are also being lined up to replace the Migs). Now I don't think it is not illogical to think that if the LCA Tejas was available, the IAF could've saved the $20 billion that this new tender is expected to cost, and induct a much larger number of Dassault Rafales in its place.
> 
> So it seems like it wasn't only a matter of choice which led to the delay in the induction of the LCA Tejas into the IAF.


Inducting a failed Chinese Project with chest thumping will never be a success.

It may be good for only science project instead of calling it a war Ready jet.



GuardianRED said:


> Lol... It is called being Technical. Stop making A joke of yourself


To understand the technical hierarchy for procurement and induction, they need to learn it. 
They will get their eyes open soon, inshallah!



Han Patriot said:


> I can't force everyone to think like me, and it's only my own opinion. LCA is stealthy? Bro, seriously please be logical, it's looks like a mini mirage.... I will give praise when it is due but LCA is definitely not worthy of my acknowledgement.


1st. It's China which called LCA as STEALTH. If it's wrong (as you said) , I want to call Chinese as a RETARDS or STUPIDS
2nd. You are free to be creative and relate everything with anything. As you guys prove it in last post's pic , by calling a PIG as a target of J-20. I have my own ideas to think about it

CHEERS

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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> 1st. It's China which called LCA as STEALTH. If it's wrong (as you said) , I want to call Chinese as a RETARDS or STUPIDS
> 2nd. You are free to be creative and relate everything with anything. As you guys prove it in last post's pic , by calling a PIG as a target of J-20. I have my own ideas to think about it
> 
> CHEERS


No problem man, there are 1 billion chinis, if some are idiots, then go ahead and call them retards. It was just a joke bro, don't be so serious.


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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> No problem man, there are 1 billion chinis, if some are idiots, then go ahead and call them retards. It was just a joke bro, don't be so serious.


I'm not serious , I was just laughing.
Chicken for F-22 and PIG for J-20.
What a creativity?


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## Han Patriot

X_Killer said:


> I'm not serious , I was just laughing.
> Chicken for F-22 and PIG for J-20.
> What a creativity?


Who says we are just commie drones, we do make jokes after all, one of the meat is actually the infamous Chinese roast pork.


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## ranadd

Han Patriot said:


> You still don't get it, you don't use laser cutter to chop firewood. India has no choice coz they can't make an axe but only has a Russian laser cutter. You get what I mean?



I believe you are just a stupid troll. On to to the ignore list.


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## X_Killer

Han Patriot said:


> Who says we are just commie drones, we do make jokes after all, one of the meat is actually the infamous Chinese roast pork.


You are free to roast your Pork but keep in your mind not to hurt Indian sovereignty.

Anyways, I still surprised with your scale to measure the jet's Capability.

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## MULUBJA

SingaporeGuy said:


> but at least their country progresses economically.
> 
> India regressed esp since 1960 both started same GDP level but one became 5 time richer
> 
> #whathappened



No we did not start at the same time. Your GDP is 2 times+ higher than us in PPP. Our era has just begun and we shall surpass you in next two to 3 decades.



AnnoyingOrange said:


> Applying for patents and getting them are two different things....



It is like their so called heavy lift rocket. Big talks and no result. Two down with so called revolutionary satellites.



SingaporeGuy said:


> Every country have domestic and external debt , dont be stupid
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why india always lag behind.
> 
> If ur mentality is the same. China puts its focus on overtaking USA u all put ur focus on fighting pakistan hence wrong goals = failure as a nation



You focused on over taking US and your two rockets fell in sea. We focused on Pakistan and created world record of putting 104 satellites in orbit and reached Mars. Whose focus is worth focusing?



AnnoyingOrange said:


> China is the only developing country with a debt to GDP ratio of 300%... and dont even get me started on the Ghost cities... and fake invoicing.. and shadow banks...



Add overstating of GDP to inflate it by many folds.



kmc_chacko said:


> Why to limit till 95% make it 100% we believe you
> 
> Tejas is to replace Mig-21s and its fulfilling its requirements.



No Chinese say that J 20 is F22 killer.



Han Patriot said:


> OMG, another Indian is thinking to use supersonic missiles for land attack. Is brahmos your only missile, you can use it for every role it seems. Different missiles with different weight, firepower, range and speed all play different roles. You don't see Russian using Oniks for everything right? Common sense.



Others can not think because they do not have it. You tried to copy but could not succeed.



ranadd said:


> Why is China showing DF21 when US shows them CBG?



It is a paper missile like many other chinese missile without even a single test. They brag about DF 21 for last 21 years without a single successful test. Chinese weapons become best in the world from day one on which any information about the weapon is published.



Han Patriot said:


> Your other friend just told me it was 70% indigenous, now you are telling me a different figure. The same way Indians kill 30 Chinese then 300 Chinese and now 340 Chinese in Sikkim? Not sure why you called JF-17 a failed project, we believe it is enough to achieve parity with LCA, that's why we transferred it to Pakistan. You can choose to believe the 2 or 3 inducted LCA as more advanced, I can't stop you. =)



We means who? Your news paper said that JF 17 is a plane of today but Tejas is a plane of Tomorrow. They said that Tejas is much better.



Han Patriot said:


> More than 60% can mean 90% too right, I am questioning the metrics you are using to calculate it.



It can be 100% as well. It depends on your high IQ to interpret what does it mean. Had it been 90%, they would have written 80%+ or 90%. This is a high IQ chinese interpretation.

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## Han Patriot

MULUBJA said:


> Others can not think because they do not have it. You tried to copy but could not succeed.
> 
> 
> .



Firstly, you didn't read the whole conversation and you are answering after the whole argument is done. LOL


----------



## kmc_chacko

MULUBJA said:


> No Chinese say that J 20 is F22 killer.



Don't take J20 lightly, it will be big boost for Chinese Aviation, for the first time China will be able to put something comparable to western tech. but problem is, if we compare, presently J20 is in the same state where F22 was in 1995 and by the time 100+ J20 deployed, F-22s will be a 30 years old fighter. China should think about Future US fighters instead of F22s, but . . . . the problem is huge number of F-35s which eventually force China to induct large nos of J20s or J31s.


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## X_Killer

kmc_chacko said:


> Don't take J20 lightly


No, we're not taking it lightly.
We are taking it too HEAVY.
Actually it's already too heavy with its underpowered Engines.

CHEERS!


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## kmc_chacko

X_Killer said:


> No, we're not taking it lightly.
> We are taking it too HEAVY.
> Actually it's already too heavy with its underpowered Engines.
> 
> CHEERS!



Every nation proud of its indigenous products, just like we are proud of Tejas.

In kannada we say "ಹೆತ್ತೋರಿಗೆ ಹೆಗ್ಗಣ ಮುದ್ದು, ಕೂಡಿದೋಳಿಗೆ ಕೋಡಗ ಮುದ್ದು".


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## X_Killer

kmc_chacko said:


> Every nation proud of its indigenous products, just like we are proud of Tejas.
> 
> In kannada we say "ಹೆತ್ತೋರಿಗೆ ಹೆಗ್ಗಣ ಮುದ್ದು, ಕೂಡಿದೋಳಿಗೆ ಕೋಡಗ ಮುದ್ದು".


Bro, I can understand Hindi, English & french only


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## kmc_chacko

X_Killer said:


> Bro, I can understand Hindi, English & french only



Literal: a bandicoot is pretty to its parents, a monkey is pretty to its mate
Meaning: Parents like their children though they are bad; a spouse likes her mate though he is odd.
Usage: This is a wacky statement of the somber truth: Love is blind.
Equivalent: every potter praises his pot

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## #hydra#

X_Killer said:


> No, we're not taking it lightly.
> We are taking it too HEAVY.
> Actually it's already too heavy with its underpowered Engines.
> 
> CHEERS!


Never ever underestimate your enemies and their products. Do you know what made US to build F15,they overestimate the mig25 and ended up in making F15,rest is history now,F15 had 104:0 kill ratio .

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## DarX

#hydra# said:


> Never ever underestimate your enemies and their products. Do you know what made US to build F15,they overestimate the mig25 and ended up in making F15,rest is history now,F15 had 104:0 kill ratio .



There is a difference between the USA and Hindustan. That is why Hindustan has only ended up with the LCA Tejas.

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## #hydra#

DarX said:


> There is a difference between the USA and Hindustan. That is why Hindustan has only ended up with the LCA Tejas.


Yeah, China isn't USSR either.

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## satishkumarcsc

The major problem is we tried to integrate a lot of stuff into a very small airframe. That made it overweight. The worst requirement was for a true delta to have a STR of 28 degrees. Which is impossible as the delta is already a draggy airframe. And the airforce did not want to have levcons or canards.







ADA had it right in the first days but the airforce wanted a lighter airframe to replace the Gnat/Ajeets and Marut in the later part of the decade. If they had stuck with the delta-canards model in the early 90s and with a M53 engine or the Mirage 2000 we would have had a world beater aircraft. I still dont get it why we went for an American engine.


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## X_Killer

#hydra# said:


> Never ever underestimate your enemies and their products.


But also Don't overestimate them too.
Over-estimation may downgrade the will. also those who didn't even produce basic needs like electricity, hospitals, schools etc , can't produce a jet.
They are just tight screws and paint it. Jf is overall a Chinese jet.


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## vikata

X_Killer said:


> But also Don't overestimate them too.
> Over-estimation may downgrade the will. also those who didn't even produce basic needs like electricity, hospitals, schools etc , can't produce a jet.
> They are just tight screws and paint it. Jf is overall a Chinese jet.


of course we never heard of any **** contribution or any ancillary industries
heck i even heard one pakistani strategist calling it as cottage industries


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## X_Killer

Efforts for further indigenisation of LCA underway

G Satheesh Reddy, scientific advisor, Ministry of Defence has said that “Indigenisation is a strategic requirement. Strong defence research & development and manufacturing will help the country meet its upgrade requirements. India cannot depend on other nations for long for supply of defence equipment, tools and products. Indigenisation can provide 30 per cent savings for the nation.”

The Centre has made a beginning by identifying 68 parts of light combat aircraft (LCA) that can be indigenised and of which seven parts had been indigenised already.

“With Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) we have identified 68 parts for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) which could be outsourced and done successfully,” he said and stressed on “dedicated, mission mode approach towards indigenisation”.

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## Abingdonboy



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## X_Killer

vikata said:


> of course we never heard of any **** contribution or any ancillary industries
> heck i even heard one pakistani strategist calling it as cottage industries


Yup, that guy was HASSAN NASIR from Pakistan.
I


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## Bossman

X_Killer said:


> Yup, that guy was HASSAN NASIR from Pakistan.
> I


Who the #uck is Hassan Nasir


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## X_Killer

Bossman said:


> Who the #uck is Hassan Nasir


If want to see him, just watch the show and truth said by him
and I request you to use decent choice of words.





*ENJOY THE SHOW
*


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## desimorty

> I can't force everyone to think like me, and it's only my own opinion. LCA is stealthy? Bro, seriously please be logical, it's looks like a mini mirage.... I will give praise when it is due but LCA is definitely not worthy of my acknowledgement.


The Mirage was used as a benchmark for reliability, maintenance and flight controls. At the time, the ideal platform in IAF. The airframe is not mirage in origin. It stems from a European design similar to the Gripen. BAE was also interested but scrapped it for the Tyhpoon project. The Tejas is inherently low RCS given its size. Not much larger than a mig21.
It is an impress undertaking given the scope of the project. If the GOI wanted, they could have started mass production early as 2006. But because of the overall picture, budget threat perception etc.. the GOI decided to further extend its testing phase. If you note, that the Tejas in IOC is pretty advanced. FOC will see Aesa radar etc.. Something only introduced in J10b. The IAF doesn't want a dud and force it into operation. The GOI IMO steered the project in the correct direction. Because going back, and reinventing the Tejas would have cost more money something India can hardly afford in peacetime.


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## Hulk

vikata said:


> i asked u a simple question but now i am thinking u are not literate enough to understand difference between a screw driver assembly plane , and a developing/maturing technology
> u guys have no metallurgical know how pathetic steel capacity no industrial base and will still keep on bragging
> enough of ur trolling now please spare the thread which is meant keep others updated about development
> but alas u dont know what is development


Guys, these troll question on a number of years Tejas took etc derails a good conversation, please do not respond to these jealous bunch who are happy to call someone else's plane theirs and feel proud about it. Let's ignore these guys, they will keep coming thousand times with these stupid questions.



GURU DUTT said:


> no kid since your a troll and since your intention is to troll here and since guys like @Arsalan & @WebMaster have diffrent set of rules for indians and for pakistanies they do let you get away with anything but ban us if we reply you back in your own langage and that whats holding me back in replying to you the way i do best so let it go
> 
> now as for tejas unlike cahs strapped PAF cash rich IAF is spoiled of choices and can choose and is choosing the best it can from swedish , american or russian or french fighters after rigrous testing them not taking and inducting untested and un FOC fighters like JF17 and then improving them and adding radars and LDPs and missiles and PGMs and LGBs after induscting them in contrast IAF wants a ready for war fighter fully tested and war ready (FOC) its like a diffrence between haves and have nots


No point mate, no matter how many times you tell them. I just read somewhere they are trying to make wiper for JF17 in Pakistan.



GURU DUTT said:


> well we are already started full serial production of LCA and in first year its 12 per year and going to incrase it 16 till next year and right now producing 16 Su30 MKIs & Dhruv & Rudra & LCH helicopters from raw meterial level (yes we even bult all its air frames & even engines and control systems) you tell us when you design and manufature and use a water pump or a 80cc moped engine inhouse


Hadh hoti hai troll ko respond karne ke. Kamal hi kar diya bhai. He has zero intention to appreciate what we have done.



satishkumarcsc said:


> Well you are from a small citystate and you wont understand the politics and economics of a greater nation. So as I told it is the wish of our country.


Bhai he is not from Singapore but he is from Pakistan maybe living their. He did not even have the courage to display one flag as Pakistani. He trolls everywhere. Don't respond to him. Looks at his low quality posts.


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## SingaporeGuy

Was looking at the hal tejas video in youtube.

The radar cross section must be really huge


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## Grevion

SingaporeGuy said:


> Was looking at the hal tejas video in youtube.
> 
> The radar cross section must be really huge


It's a tiny aircraft. How did you came to that conclusion??


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## Zer0reZ

SingaporeGuy said:


> Was looking at the hal tejas video in youtube.
> 
> The radar cross section must be really huge


mark-1 ~ 1.5m2
mark-1A ~ 0.1 m2
JF-17 ~ 5-3 m2
F-16 ~ 1.2m2

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## Han Patriot

Zer0reZ said:


> mark-1 ~ 1.5m2
> mark-1A ~ 0.1 m2
> JF-17 ~ 5-3 m2
> F-16 ~ 1.2m2


Wow, that would make TEJAS a stealth fighter! SUPA POWA


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## Zer0reZ

Han Patriot said:


> Wow, that would make TEJAS a stealth fighter! SUPA POWA


stealth isn't about just rcs, don't reply me if you got nothing to provide anything significant, go play with your junk fighter.

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## Han Patriot

Zer0reZ said:


> stealth isn't about just rcs, don't reply me if you got nothing to provide anything significant, go play with your junk fighter.


It's compliment.


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## gslv mk3

SingaporeGuy said:


> Was looking at the hal tejas video in youtube.
> 
> The radar cross section must be really huge



I would say I really, really admire these Chinese posters.

Here in India we have to use computational electromagnetics & measurement ranges to estimate the RCS of an aircraft.

These people determine the RCS by just 'looking at it'. Seriously, China is lucky to have a genius like you...

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## Abingdonboy

Wow








This could be a huge mistake......

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## #hydra#

Grevion said:


> It's a tiny aircraft. How did you came to that conclusion??


Chinese Yaar,what else u will expect from.a China man.


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## Abingdonboy

So within the next 2-3 years we could see a LCA MK.1A flying with a Uttam AESA radar+Kaveri engine+DARE EW suite


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## #hydra#

gslv mk3 said:


> I would say I really, really admire these Chinese posters.
> 
> Here in India we have to use computational electromagnetics & measurement ranges to estimate the RCS of an aircraft.
> 
> These people determine the RCS by just 'looking at it'. Seriously, China is lucky to have a genius like you...


That too from YouTube video.

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## Zer0reZ

Abingdonboy said:


> Wow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a huge mistake......


I don't think so we issued RFI for mark-1A radar


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> So within the next 2-3 years we could see a LCA MK.1A flying with a Uttam AESA radar+Kaveri engine+DARE EW suite



Not the engine 

Engine is not a priority ; Engine will be looked at when these GE engines have to be replaced or AMCA or MK 2


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## Abingdonboy

Zer0reZ said:


> I don't think so we issued RFI for mark-1A radar


Yes but that was then and this is now, perhaps at the time HAL didn't think the Uttam would be ready in time but now it appears it will be or the global RFI is a back up plan.

The latest news is this, things could change but it is a pretty remarkable revelation.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Not the engine
> 
> Engine is not a priority ; Engine will be looked at when these GE engines have to be replaced or AMCA or MK 2


Beyond a point the Kaveri will become the defacto production engine for the LCA, the first few batches of MK.1A may come with the F404 but once the Kaveri is ready no new LCAs need be mated with it. Those with the F404 will then get the Kaveri during their MLU.

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## Zer0reZ

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes but that was then and this is now, perhaps at the time HAL didn't think the Uttam would be ready in time but now it appears it will be or the global RFI is a back up plan.
> 
> The latest news is this, things could change but it is a pretty remarkable revelation


I won't call it latest & blame HAL planners, uttam is there for mark-2 and mark-1 will be integrated first in coming months. Though if Saab wins that radar tender then we are buying Gripen for MMRCA deal for sure.


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## Anish1

LCA-Tejas FOC delayed: Update

Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre while replying to a question put forward by a Parliamentarian in Rajya Sabha said that Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCA-Tejas will likely happen by June 2018.

Firing of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile with radar guidance already has been achieved but it will require further testing to meet FOC Standards, while Close Combat Missile (Python-5 ) testing is pending due to delays in carrying out modification required by OEM (Israel) for integration into LCA-Tejas for trials as per Industrial sources close to idrw.org .

India already has integrated Russian supplied R-73 Within Visual range Air-to-Air missile (WVRAAM) but decided to all so equip LCA-Tejas with Israeli manufactured Python-5 WVRAAM.

Flight testing of Tejas with an air-to-air-refuelling probe is progressing well, but much of the flight testing will be completed in the last phase since IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA-Tejas MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately but it IFR trials are mandatory requirements which need to be cleared for granting of FOC Certifications .

Canon Gun trials of LCA-Tejas has been carried out in Ground based trials before in flight based trials could begin, but due to bad wheater at weapons testing site and due to other reasons, it is has been kept pending but testing will be completed in next few months. Other Air-to-ground weapon trials have been largely completed.

http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/

1. BVR missile and radar not working properly.

2. WVR missile not integrated.

3. IFR not integrated.

4. Unlike WW2 aircraft Tejas is not able to fire its gun.

Looks like a single seat civilian transport than a military aircraft

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## Tshering22

Han Patriot said:


> I don't think China will attack Delhi, but Tezpur will definitely be annihilated, we can just sit in Lhasa and launch our long range cruise missiles. We won't be using ballistic missile which would have triggered international condemnation. Just use cruise missile Tomahawk style, lob in a few, destroy Tezpur then aim for the new roads and railways in the chicken neck area. You pratically cut off the whole NE from India. We have the upperhand in Tibet plateau which is the higher ground, put in the light tanks and AH-4 and walla.


Good to hear. Keep talking. 

That's all your Ministry of Warning will do. 

All your leadership knows what would happen in an all out war and it won't benefit anyone.

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## satishkumarcsc

Anish9500 said:


> LCA-Tejas FOC delayed: Update
> 
> Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre while replying to a question put forward by a Parliamentarian in Rajya Sabha said that Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCA-Tejas will likely happen by June 2018.
> 
> Firing of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile with radar guidance already has been achieved but it will require further testing to meet FOC Standards, while Close Combat Missile (Python-5 ) testing is pending due to delays in carrying out modification required by OEM (Israel) for integration into LCA-Tejas for trials as per Industrial sources close to idrw.org .
> 
> India already has integrated Russian supplied R-73 Within Visual range Air-to-Air missile (WVRAAM) but decided to all so equip LCA-Tejas with Israeli manufactured Python-5 WVRAAM.
> 
> Flight testing of Tejas with an air-to-air-refuelling probe is progressing well, but much of the flight testing will be completed in the last phase since IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA-Tejas MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately but it IFR trials are mandatory requirements which need to be cleared for granting of FOC Certifications .
> 
> Canon Gun trials of LCA-Tejas has been carried out in Ground based trials before in flight based trials could begin, but due to bad wheater at weapons testing site and due to other reasons, it is has been kept pending but testing will be completed in next few months. Other Air-to-ground weapon trials have been largely completed.
> 
> http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/
> 
> 1. BVR missile and radar not working properly.
> 
> 2. WVR missile not integrated.
> 
> 3. IFR not integrated.
> 
> 4. Unlike WW2 aircraft Tejas is not able to fire its gun.
> 
> Looks like a single seat civilian transport than a military aircraft



You dont just fire a single missile and call it a success....This is not some rag tag nation to do that.

The R 73 was already integrated...the IAF wanted a newer WVR along with the R 73. That must also be integrated with the HMD.

IFR is not yet integrated as the Chobham company has just delivered 2 probes smart-***

the Gun is integrated...but the canon firing trials are conducted last to signal that the aircraft is FOC ready.

The F 35 does not have a gun...so what does that mean?

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## XDescendantX

Man you guys blabber too much, I had to go back 15 pages just to find a decent pic of the Tejas.

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## Anish1

satishkumarcsc said:


> You dont just fire a single missile and call it a success....This is not some rag tag nation to do that.
> 
> The R 73 was already integrated...the IAF wanted a newer WVR along with the R 73. That must also be integrated with the HMD.
> 
> IFR is not yet integrated as the Chobham company has just delivered 2 probes smart-***
> 
> the Gun is integrated...but the canon firing trials are conducted last to signal that the aircraft is FOC ready.
> 
> The F 35 does not have a gun...so what does that mean?



Tejas gun is not integrated unlike Spitfire, Bf 109.

F-35 has a gun. 

HAL cannot integrate IFR it is fully at fault, too busy exporting goat.


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## Dazzler

Anish9500 said:


> Tejas gun is not integrated unlike Spitfire, Bf 109.
> 
> F-35 has a gun.
> 
> HAL cannot integrate IFR it is fully at fault, too busy exporting goat.



HAL cannot even make a decent quartz radome for Tejas, and they had to import that too from Chobham.

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## Anish1

Dazzler said:


> HAL cannot even make a decent quartz radome for Tejas, and they had to import that too from Chobham.



Even entire cockpit and canopy had to be redesigned after it found out that pilots who were not midgets would occasionally hit the canopy with helmets.

Now only short pilots can fly the HAL Tejas.

It's a comedy of errors and a grave traversty at the same time

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## Dazzler

Anish9500 said:


> Even entire cockpit and canopy had to be redesigned after it found out that pilots who were not midgets would occasionally hit the canopy with helmets.
> 
> Now only short pilots can fly the HAL Tejas.
> 
> It's a comedy of errors and a grave traversty at the same time



Tell me not, i thought the Arjun project took the crown for pioneering such silly mishaps, guess ADA just took over it.


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> HAL cannot even make a decent quartz radome for Tejas, and they had to import that too from Chobham.



But they could make a CFC wing & airframe. stop nitpicking.


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## Anish1

Dazzler said:


> Tell me not, i thought the Arjun project took the crown for pioneering such silly mishaps, guess ADA just took over it.



Initial design provided by Dassault. One of the world's finest aerospace companies.

Can't believe the shit ADA has done to mess it up.

Cannot even fire the cannon in the air.

People say it can fire the cannon on the ground so perhaps we should invite you to come to Bangalore and take part in a hangar shootout with the Tejas ?


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> Even entire cockpit and canopy had to be redesigned after it found out that pilots who were not midgets would occasionally hit the canopy with helmets.





Dazzler said:


> Tell me not, i thought the Arjun project took the crown for pioneering such silly mishaps, guess ADA just took over it.



Again nitpicking already solved issues?

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/11/exclusive-tejas-cockpit-better-suits.html



Anish9500 said:


> Initial design provided by Dassault. One of the world's finest aerospace companies.



LOL.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> But they could make a CFC wing & airframe. stop nitpicking.



it is called reality check. How many radomes HAL made?

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> it is called reality check. How many radomes HAL made?



Several. The Jaguar ones & old LCA ones (Kevlar) are an example of the same (technology developed by NAL)

And the AEW&C for that matter

Let me give you a reality check now- India can manufacture a carbon composite airframes & wings for several projects.

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## Abingdonboy

Anish9500 said:


> Even entire cockpit and canopy had to be redesigned after it found out that pilots who were not midgets would occasionally hit the canopy with helmets.
> 
> Now only short pilots can fly the HAL Tejas.
> 
> It's a comedy of errors and a grave traversty at the same time





Dazzler said:


> Tell me not, i thought the Arjun project took the crown for pioneering such silly mishaps, guess ADA just took over it.



This is TOTAL cr@p, minor re-designs had to take place inside the cockpit because a new HMD was integrated (Targo-2 as opposed to DASH-IV).


Btw, Vishnu Som is >6ft and he flew in an early PV with no problems, he never mentioned anyting about height restrictions:















Btw, ALL aircraft (even commercial airliners) have restrictions for the size of their pilots.



Dazzler said:


> it is called reality check. How many radomes HAL made?


And that's relevent how?

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## Anish1

Abingdonboy said:


> This is TOTAL cr@p, minor re-designs had to take place inside the cockpit because a new HMD was integrated (Targo-2 as opposed to DASH-IV).
> 
> 
> Btw, Vishnu Som is >6ft and he flew in an early PV with no problems, he never mentioned anyting about height restrictions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, ALL aircraft (even commercial airliners) have restrictions for the size of their pilots.
> 
> 
> And that's relevent how?



Until IAF point black objected to fly in the Tejas ( fleet was grounded for a year ) did the lazy HAL go and fix it


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## Abingdonboy

Anish9500 said:


> Until IAF point black objected to fly in the Tejas ( fleet was grounded for a year ) did the lazy HAL go and fix it


And when is this meant to have happened?

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## Anish1

Abingdonboy said:


> And when is this meant to have happened?



In history on India on planet earth not history of India on defence forums

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...tejas-resumes-test-flight-112112702031_1.html

Good thing IAF does not take in any opinions of you online forumers.

National security over rides your personal opinions.


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> In history on India on planet earth not history of India on defence forums



3 months = an year

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## Abingdonboy

Anish9500 said:


> In history on India on planet earth not history of India on defence forums
> 
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...tejas-resumes-test-flight-112112702031_1.html
> 
> Good thing IAF does not take in any opinions of you online forumers.
> 
> National security over rides your personal opinions.



You have got to be trolling me now:

First assertion by you, LCAs grounded because "only short pilots could fly"

Reality:_
The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place *because of the new pilot’s helmets*. Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter’s canopy before it was blown off._


Second assertion, LCA was ground for a year

Reality:
_“Yes, we had about three to *three-and-a-half-months of gap* (in flight testing). Now, that problem has been resolved. _

And this is from the source YOU provided!
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...tejas-resumes-test-flight-112112702031_1.html


Gotta try harder than this

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## GuardianRED

Dazzler said:


> it is called reality check. How many radomes HAL made?


Here consultant ....A Reality Check

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## Anish1

Abingdonboy said:


> You have got to be trolling me now:
> 
> First assertion by you, LCAs grounded because "only short pilots could fly"
> 
> Reality:
> _The grounding of Tejas, which was kept secret, took place *because of the new pilot’s helmets*. Since these protruded above the ejection seats, the helmets could have prevented a smooth ejection by smashing into the fighter’s canopy before it was blown off._
> 
> 
> Second assertion, LCA was ground for a year
> 
> Reality:
> _“Yes, we had about three to *three-and-a-half-months of gap* (in flight testing). Now, that problem has been resolved. _
> 
> And this is from the source YOU provided!
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...tejas-resumes-test-flight-112112702031_1.html
> 
> 
> Gotta try harder than this



Indian Navy has already done half the job.

Vayu Bhawan will do the rest.


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> .
> Vayu Bhawan will do the rest.



They ordered 40+83 aircraft.

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## Anish1

gslv mk3 said:


> They ordered 40+83 aircraft.



Ordered 40 more than a decade ago.

83 is for media purposes


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> Ordered 40 more than a decade ago.
> 
> 83 is for media purposes



Another stupid claim like 3 months = 1 year.

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## Dazzler

GuardianRED said:


> Here consultant ....A Reality Check
> 
> View attachment 416064



Learn to differentiate between quartz and composite.


----------



## Anish1

*The Americans Are Back: F-16 for the IAF and F/A-18 for the Indian Navy*
Ashley J. Tellis
During the last year, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Navy (IN) confirmed what must have been the worst kept secret in New Delhi: that the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, for all its achievements, was unsuitable as a strike-fighter for their near-term modernisation requirements.

Where the IAF was concerned, the request for information (RFI) for a new single-engine fighter issued in the United States, Russia, and Sweden in October 2016 marked a further twist in its long-running saga to complete the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition that first began in 2001. After the aborted competition led to an off-the-shelf purchase of just 36 Rafales in 2015 — instead of the 126 aircraft originally intended — the question of how the IAF would overcome the deficit of the 90 remaining fighters was still unanswered. There were some in India who argued that the IAF should jettison the MMRCA requirement altogether and fill out the remainder of the force with more Su-30s at the high-end and additional Tejas fighters at the low-end.

Given the shortcomings of the Tejas — some, but not all, of which can be rectified — it is not surprising that the IAF finally threw in the towel and decided to seek an advanced foreign fighter to satisfy its MMRCA requirements, even if only partially. That the 90 aircraft now considered for acquisition will be single-engined suggests that this segment of the IAF may eventually end up bifurcated. The single-engine platform, which hopefully will be announced in the next year or so, will complement the 83 Tejas fighters already approved for procurement: together serving as replacements for the retiring MiG-21s in the IAF inventory. Because the 90 future selectees and the 123 Tejas aircraft that will eventually be acquired will still not suffice as one-to-one replacements for the MiG-21s, it is possible that the IAF may consider acquiring additional medium-weight twin-engined Western fighters down the line, if and when finances permit, in order to further strengthen the IAF for counter-air operations involving China and preserve the three-tier force that the service has sought to maintain more recently.

Obviously, there is nothing particularly sacrosanct about a three-tier force structure in the abstract. If the foreign single-engine fighter met the multirole requirement effectively, the IAF could simply expand its numbers to maintain a larger component that straddles the light- and medium- weight categories, as this new acquisition would in any case bring more to the air superiority campaign than a defensive counter-air fighter like the Tejas ever could.

The Indian Navy, in contrast, has moved in a different direction from what appeared to be initially contemplated. Although the navy has been the strongest supporter of India’s indigenous defence development efforts, the sea service too finally rejected the naval version of the Tejas that was originally intended for deployment aboard the INS Vikrant — Indian Aircraft Carrier-1 (IAC-1) — currently under construction. This decision is eminently sensible given the navy’s special requirements: because an aircraft carrier hosts a relatively small number of combat aircraft aboard a single-engine fighter is a risky proposition at even the best of times. The technological and operational limitations of the Tejas only implied that these risks would be magnified, even if it were to be deployed merely as a second-string complement to a more advanced strike-fighter, such as the MiG-29K, which has been bedevilled by serious serviceability problems of its own. Consequently, the IN has prudently chosen to seek a new advanced twin-engine fighter that hopefully will populate the entire combat air wing on the INS Vikrant and possibly the follow- on vessel (IAC-2) as well.

Both the IAF and the IN have thus ended up similarly: although the former, seeking a twin-engined airplane originally, has now settled for a single-engine combatant, and the latter, investing in a single-engine fighter initially, is now exploring a twin-engined aircraft, both have decided to look abroad rather than at home for good reason. A direct purchase of the aircraft finally selected, however, is not on the cards. Thanks to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s emphasis on ‘Make in India,’ the final winners in both the IAF’s and the IN’s competitions will be decided not simply on operational excellence and costs — the traditional criteria that dominated fighter selections hitherto — but equally on how best they leaven India’s domestic manufacturing capabilities. And the traditional Indian interest in using its defence acquisitions to strengthen its strategic partnerships abroad still remains unchanged; if anything, these geopolitical imperatives have only intensified since Modi took office.

The renewal of a global search to supply India with advanced fighters has unexpectedly pushed the United States back into the game after both its entrants, the F-16IN Fighting Falcon and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, were ejected from the previous round of the MMRCA competition. Because the IAF’s new RFI specifies a single-engine platform, however, the only two aircraft capable of satisfying this requirement are Lockheed Martin’s venerable F-16, offered to India in its latest and most sophisticated Block 70 variant, and Saab’s Gripen, which has been offered in a new, larger, and more impressive E variant that flew for the first time on 15 June 2017. The IN’s requirement for a twin-engined naval fighter has similarly left only two contestants in the race — Dassault’s Rafale, the previous selectee in the IAF’s MMRCA competition, and Boeing’s Super Hornet, the principal strike-fighter on the US Navy’s aircraft carriers today.

The return of Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70 Fighting Falcon and Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet into the IAF’s and IN’s competitions respectively has irked some Indian commentators, such as Bharat Karnad, who view them as examples of ‘technologically obsolete weaponry.’ This criticism is misplaced and fails to appreciate what makes combat fighters effective.

*Tricolour Roundels on a Falcon?*
Starting with the IAF race first, the F-16 is a storied fighter that has been in continual production since 1976 with over 4,500 aircraft built since. Although designed initially as a light fighter for within- visual-range combat, it has evolved into a formidable multirole platform over time, all the while remaining one of the most agile air combatants ever produced by the United States (US). Today, the F-16 in the US Air Force (USAF), for example, is employed for all-weather counter-air operations: these include both beyond- and within-visual-range air-to-air engagements as well as anti- surface strike (including specialised missions such as the suppression of enemy air defences).

That the F-16’s basic airframe has evolved only modestly over the years has proven to be completely irrelevant where manoeuvring superiority is concerned. This is evinced in the fact that, although the aircraft first flew in 1974, its sustained and instantaneous turn performance (when flying without its conformal fuel tanks) at both low and high altitudes is virtually identical to that of the Gripen and its thrust-to-weight ratio is unambiguously superior — not bad for an aircraft that was designed almost 15 years earlier! It would be surprising if the Gripen E, with its heavier airframe in comparison to its predecessor and its lower-thrust engine in comparison to the F-16, could improve upon this feat dramatically.

Success in modern air combat today, however, is not simply a matter of manoeuvring performance, even though the F-16 is fully the Gripen’s peer in this regard. Rather, the aircraft’s sensors, electronic warfare and information management systems, and weapons make an enormous difference — as do pilot training, doctrine, and the concepts of employment. If pilot training is excluded from the comparison, it is in the other realms that the F-16 has undergone a truly transformative metamorphosis over time, making it a worthy competitor to the Gripen in both the air-to-air and the anti-surface warfare regimes.

The F-16’s primary sensor, the AN/ APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Active (AESA) radar, for example, employs fifth-generation AESA radar technology that is derived from the advanced radars developed for the F-22 and the F-35. The F-16’s electronic warfare systems will be sophisticated Israeli systems, selected in accord with IAF preferences, and its weapons are more or less comparable to those of the Gripen E (and are, in fact, interchangeable should India require it). The Gripen’s information management capabilities are undoubtedly exquisite, but whether they are superior in an operational context to those of the F-16 is not obvious. At any rate, the F-16’s larger weapons load and, when used, its conformal fuel tanks give it a larger radius of action in comparison to the Gripen E, which makes it more attractive for theatre strike operations involving China.

None of this derogates from the Gripen E’s technological excellence, which is conspicuous, but it does indicate that the F-16 is at no particular disadvantage to its Swedish competitor where its combat capabilities are concerned. Its age in particular has posed no special impediment as its avionics and weapons — the capabilities that really matter, given that its aerodynamic characteristics are already superlative — have been continuously modernised, as required by the complex operating environment facing its principal and most demanding customer, the US Air Force (USAF). Parenthetically, it may be noted here that the F-16 Block 70 offered to India is so dramatically superior to the version in Pakistan’s employ as to defy serious comparison.

Given the difficult financial constraints facing the IAF today, the unit flyaway and life cycle costs of the two aircraft will be critical factors affecting the Indian decision. Unfortunately, good comparative data on these issues is hard to come by. The original Gripen had a well-deserved reputation for having low operating costs (the F-16’s being somewhat higher), but whether this will be equally true for the Gripen E is as yet unclear. In any case, the price at which the F-16 and the Gripen E are being offered to India today is publicly unknown; suffice it to say that, the closer they are in price, the more attractive the F-16 would be to the Modi government, given its other advantages for defence industrial cooperation and deepening the US-India strategic partnership.

It is in these latter arenas that the F-16’s advantages over the Gripen E are most pronounced. Because Lockheed Martin is transitioning toward the manufacture of the F-35 in the United States, the company has committed to transferring the entire F-16 production line to India, should this aircraft be selected in the IAF’s single engine fighter competition. The transfer of the line would enable Lockheed Martin and its Indian partner, Tata Advanced Systems, to complete the final assembly of the aircraft in India along with manufacturing of its various structural components, while eventually shifting towards the fabrication of some of its combat system components as well.

While Saab is certain to table a similar offer, sweetening the pot with financing in addition to technology transfer, the Lockheed Martin-Tata joint venture promises to advance Modi’s employment generation objectives far more ambitiously because it would integrate India into the global aviation supply chain at a level that Saab cannot match. Beyond supporting the IAF’s own F-16s, all future F-16 sales globally — including to the four-six countries that are currently exploring new acquisitions — could occur from production in Indian plants. Furthermore, India would become a critical node in supporting the 3,200 F-16s still in service in 25 countries (including the 950-odd F-16s that will remain in US Air Force (USAF) service for another two decades), in contrast to becoming a supplier for a much smaller market — at best 200-300 Gripens in some six or seven countries — were it to select the Gripen E eventually. The advantages of the F-16’s global popularity, and its still expanding market, are thus obvious for India.

The gains to a deepened US-India relationship are no less consequential. At a time when President Donald J. Trump seeks transactional benefits to the US from all its foreign partnerships, an Indian purchase of American F-16s would go far in protecting its bilateral ties with the US — still the most important power in the international system — without compromising the IAF’s capabilities. New Delhi’s selection of the Gripen E would obviously strengthen the IAF in similar ways, but a strategic partnership with Sweden is meaningless in the face of the problems posed by China’s rising assertiveness in Asia.

The significant proportion of US technologies in the Gripen further complicates matters: it has been estimated that between 40 to 50 per cent of the original version’s components are of American origin, meaning that the US license regime would apply even if India purchased the Swedish aircraft. This fact diminishes the attractiveness of the Gripen where political considerations are concerned, because New Delhi would end up substantially buying American but without getting the requisite credit. In any event, Saab appears to be attempting to replace the Gripen’s American components with other substitutes, but the success of this effort and its impact of the aircraft’s effectiveness are thus far unclear.

On balance, therefore, whether India finally chooses the F-16 Block 70 or the Gripen E, the IAF comes out ahead because both aircraft are indisputably superior to the Tejas in manoeuvring performance, sensors, electronic warfare and information management systems, weapons load, and in radius of action. There are marginal differences in operational capability between the F-16 and the Gripen, some favouring the former and some the latter, with the F-16 having an indisputable advantage in range and in the weight of the payload carried. Both aircraft will continue to evolve in the areas that really matter for air superiority over the long term — sensors for passive and active detection, advanced fire and forget weaponry, cooperative targeting using off-board data, and fire control systems for air and ground operations — and therefore, Indian interests would be well served by choosing either airplane for its air force. Both the F-16 Block 70 and the Gripen E are highly capable multirole fighters, and, as a result, the Indian government will be confronted by the difficult dilemma of juggling operational effectiveness and cost on one hand with the benefits for defence industrial cooperation and deepening the US-India partnership on the other hand. Pulling off such a balancing act cannot be easy, but New Delhi is better off being spoilt for choice than having to cope with skimpiness.

*Super Hornets at Sea?*
If the F-16 is the worthwhile revenant in the IAF’s single engine competition, Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet actually has an upper hand in the IN’s search for a twin-engined fighter for its future aircraft carriers. The fleet’s requirements here are complicated by the fact that the aircraft selected as its primary strike-fighter must be capable of operating from both the INS Vikrant, the ski jump equipped short take-off but arrested recovery (STOBAR) carrier currently being built in Cochin, as well as from its future large deck catapult take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carriers, such as the IAC-2, which will begin construction at some point in the future.

The IN has concluded that the Tejas is unsuitable for either vessel because, despite the structural improvements made to the test airframe in support of carrier operations, the final product did not meet the standard of acceptability at a time when Indian naval aviation is preparing to meet formidable adversaries, such as China, in the Indian Ocean.

Being able to successfully defend against — and overcome — Chinese aircraft carriers with their deployed air wings consisting of Su-33/J-15s, and possibly indigenous J-20s and J-31s in the future, should constitute the real metric for judging the acceptability of a given strike-fighter for the IN’s prospective carriers. This implies that rather than obsessing over some arcane detail pertaining to the increased tensile strength of the Tejas’ undercarriage or the extent of the nose droop improvements intended to expand its pilot’s vision, its worth as the mainstay of Indian carrier aviation must be judged by its effectiveness as a combat system rather than merely by its aerodynamic viability.

Obviously, achieving success on the latter count is a precondition for satisfying the former. But the challenge facing the IN here is that the indigenous Tejas is hopelessly behind the times relative to the threat that it faces from more mature opponents in the here and now — adversaries whose war-fighting performance is now steadily being expanded even as the Indian test-bed struggles to become merely a worthwhile flying platform for carrier operations.

Given this asymmetry, it is not surprising that the IN has chosen to look for an advanced strike-fighter from abroad right away, partly because it cannot wait in hope that the Tejas Mark 2 will eventually make the cut as an effective strike-fighter for the Vikrant. If it is to have a combat aircraft manufactured in India and ready for operations by the time this carrier enters the fleet in 2021, the selection and procurement processes will have to be completed by early 2018 at the latest. Given the development timelines associated with the Tejas Mark 2 thus far, it would be simply miraculous if the aircraft could be certified as combat ready, let alone superior to its likely adversaries, by that date.

Because an aircraft carrier has only a small number of aircraft, the qualitative superiority of both aircraft and pilot are critical, while maintainability — meaning the reliability of the airframe and its combat subsystems as well as the ease of diagnostics and repair — contributes towards the ability to turn an aircraft around quickly for repeated sorties, thus making it a vital combat multiplier, particularly for small- or medium-sized air wings. Of the foreign contestants in the IN’s search list, neither the Swedish Sea Gripen — as yet only a notional alternative — nor the Russian MiG-29K have demonstrated the capacity for both ski jump and catapult launches, and the Sea Gripen additionally fails to meet the RFI’s requirement that it must already be in service in its country of origin. Consequently, only the French Rafale and the American F/A-18 Super Hornet remain as plausible contenders and each offers India the opportunity to dominate the adversaries it is likely to face in the Indian Ocean.

But the two rivals are not evenly matched. The Rafale, unlike the Super Hornet, does not have fully foldable wings and, hence, cannot use the Vikrant’s elevators without major modifications that would add to its already high unit costs. The IAF’s Rafale came out at close to USD160 million per copy and the naval variant, of which less than 50 have been produced, is likely to be even more expensive. But cost aside, the Rafale’s lack of fully folding wings implies that fewer aircraft can be spotted on the carrier’s flight deck, a disadvantage when more aircraft there mean faster cyclic operations and by extension greater combat capability. And its maintenance requirements and operating costs are much more substantial than that of the Super Hornet.

Beyond these issues, even when both aircraft are compared one-on-one, the F/A-18 E/F compares favourably with the Rafale. The Super Hornet’s organic sensors and its capacity for integration with the E-2D airborne early warning aircraft, which is likely to be eventually deployed by the IN ashore and most likely on board the IAC-2, are unparalleled. The F/A-18 E/F’s primary sensor, the APG-79 AESA radar, has no peer among fourth-generation combat aircraft, and its huge detection and electronic attack advantages ensure first look-first shot opportunities that even sophisticated rivals often cannot match. Its advanced electronic warfare suites, one area where the Rafale’s capabilities are indeed comparable, make it exceptionally survivable in a variety of war-fighting environments, while its ability to swing effortlessly between air-to-air and air-to-surface missions make it just as versatile as its French competitor — but in a much cheaper platform.

To make a long story short, the F/A- 18 E/F Super Hornet has been designed for standoff air superiority as well as for flexible multirole operations and for that reason will remain the US Navy’s workhorse strike-fighter well into 2040, if not beyond. Both the Super Hornet and the Rafale are superb strike-fighters, but the IN is likely to find the F/A- 18 E/F better suited as the primary aviation battery for both its STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers. The cost advantages of the Super Hornet are considerable and, when considerations relating to defence industrial cooperation and deepening strategic partnerships are taken into account, it also does just as well as, if not better, than the Rafale on both counts. Because Boeing already has major production activities underway in India, including a joint venture with Tata that fabricates the fuselage for the Apache attack helicopter, as well as Indian suppliers that already manufacture components for US and international F/A-18s, such as Sasmoss, Rossell Techsys, and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the selection of the Super Hornet by the IN would yield expanded partnerships with Indian industry for the manufacture of its airframe sections, wings and control surfaces, parts of its engines, and various other subsystems.

These activities, which would result in the transfer of proprietary knowhow, advanced manufacturing technologies, and industrial fabrication processes, would help to nurture a production complex that can oversee the delivery of an advanced weapon system that the US has never before sold to India. Developing such an infrastructure would not only create high technology jobs dispersed throughout India, but it would build indigenous proficiency that could aid in the development and manufacture of other civilian and military technologies. Even as these benefits come to fruition, India would position itself to support the nearly 600 F/A-18s that are in operation globally. It would also open the door to possible co-development and co-manufacturing of components for the Advanced F/A-18 Block III, with its conformal fuel tanks, enclosed weapons pod, and an enhanced General Electric 414 engine that could serve as a common power plant for the Super Hornet, Tejas, and eventually the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft concurrently. These kinds of benefits would obviously not be comparably available with the Rafale because of its smaller global market.

The deepening of the US-Indian strategic partnership would also be an obvious consequence of an Indian decision to purchase the Super Hornet for its prospective aircraft carriers. The same would be true for India’s partnership with France were the IN to settle for the Rafale. But important though this latter political affiliation is for New Delhi, the twists and turns in the earlier MMRCA endgame demonstrated how the extraordinarily high costs of French equipment made it difficult for India to fuel its strategic partnership with France through large defence transactions. In this instance, therefore, the case for the IN selecting the Super Hornet is persuasive because it would bring combat capabilities on par with the Rafale but at much lower cost while simultaneously enhancing India’s industrial base and strengthening its partnership with Washington.

*Taking the Long View*
There is little doubt that India has good options as it moves forward to fulfil its air force and naval requirements for an advanced strike-fighter. In both cases though, there will be challenging tradeoffs to be made as the government of India juggles the operational excellence of the various contenders, their unit and lifecycle costs, their contributions to leavening India’s defence industry, and their capacity to deepen the country’s strategic partnerships.

When these variables are assessed synoptically, the American offerings prove to be remarkably competitive — not entirely a surprise, even if the circumstances that permitted their re-entry were not initially anticipated. In any event, India should treat the winners chosen in both the IAF and IN competitions merely as ‘interim’ acquisitions despite the fact that these aircraft will be in service for several decades. Because combat aviation is steadily moving towards the dominance of stealthy platforms, India should be seeking to leverage these purchases towards the development or the acquisition of fifth-generation fighters — a technology area where, at least to date, American suppliers dominate in the international marketplace. Perhaps that is one more reason for giving Lockheed Martin and Boeing serious consideration in the current competition.

This article was originally published in _FORCE_.

http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/0...16-for-iaf-and-f-18-for-indian-navy-pub-72706


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Learn to differentiate between quartz and composite.



The question was...



Dazzler said:


> How many radomes HAL made?



And BTW quartz radomes aren't composite ?

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> The question was...



Read the original post troll, stop twisting.


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Read the original post troll, stop twisting.



says a troll who once even claimed that LCA airframe 'shivers' while pulling anything more than 6Gs

And claimed that Quartz radomes aren't composite.

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## GuardianRED

Dazzler said:


> Learn to differentiate between quartz and composite.


learn to phase a question better!!!

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## Anish1

Dazzler said:


> Read the original post troll, stop twisting.



Bottom line is HAL cannot build a quartz radome.

Any other radome further diminishes the pathetic DRDO pulse Doppler multi mode radar which has point blank range of 20 km.

And people think same DRDO can build an AESA.


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> DRDO pulse Doppler multi mode radar which has point blank range of 20 km.



Oh god, more BS from a serial troll...



Anish9500 said:


> And people think same DRDO can build an AESA.



they have built & fielded AESA radars.


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## Anish1

The failed HAL LCA Tejas has yet to obtain the advanced capability as demonstrated in this video








gslv mk3 said:


> Oh god, more BS from a serial troll...
> 
> 
> 
> they have built & fielded AESA radars.



They have imported and renamed AESA radars from Israel.

It's a good thing that the Allies did not field the Tejas in WW2 or we would still have had Nazi Germany around


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> They have imported and renamed AESA radars from Israel.



Sure, '1 year = 3 months' guy.



Anish9500 said:


> It's a good thing that the Allies did not field the Tejas in WW2 or we would still have had Nazi Germany around

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> says a troll who once even claimed that LCA airframe 'shivers' while pulling anything more than 6Gs
> 
> And claimed that Quartz radomes aren't composite.



Yes they are, but in technical terms, not materials. HAL forgot to consult the likes of you before importing. Next time, tell them to be more cautious.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/525360880163495936

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Yes they are, but in technical terms, not materials.



Don't make me laugh. 'technically' ? How is it different from Kevlar/ GFRP ? the reinforcement is different but it is a composite.



Dazzler said:


> Next time, tell them to be more cautious.



Against 2m2 targets.


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## Anish1

Something the failed Tejas cannot do after 50 years






Fire a bullet.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Don't make me laugh. 'technically' ? How is it different from Kevlar/ GFRP ? the reinforcement is different but it is a composite.
> 
> 
> 
> Against 2m2 targets.



So you are suggesting that HAL could make it but end up importing anyway?

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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> Something the failed Tejas cannot do after 50 years


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## Anish1

Dazzler said:


> So you are suggesting that HAL could make it but end up importing anyway?



As I said before the Indian Air Force is not at all affected by deluded Indian forumers.






gslv mk3 said:


>



But can it do the basic part of air combat?

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> So you are suggesting that HAL could make it but end up importing anyway?



Why not. But it'll be a lengthy process.



Anish9500 said:


> But can it do the basic part of air combat?



Which year is this, exactly ? 1945 ?


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## Anish1




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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Why not. But it'll be a lengthy process.



Which process is lengthy?


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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> Yes they are, but in technical terms, not materials. HAL forgot to consult the likes of you before importing. Next time, tell them to be more cautious.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/525360880163495936



JF 17 doesn't have a quartz radome as far as I know. Yet aren't you planning an AESA for it? You just assumed the engineers didn't understand they needed a quartz radome? Maybe that the time it took to develop was longer than expected.


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## Anish1

This guy could alone shoot down an entire Tejas Wing forget squadron


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## Guynextdoor2

gslv mk3 said:


> says a troll who once even claimed that LCA airframe 'shivers' while pulling anything more than 6Gs
> 
> And claimed that Quartz radomes aren't composite.



don't feed trolls.


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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> JF 17 doesn't have a quartz radome as far as I know. Yet aren't you planning an AESA for it? You just assumed the engineers didn't understand they needed a quartz radome? Maybe that the time it took to develop was longer than expected.



Show me where I brought jf-17 into this discussion.


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## Anish1

gslv mk3 said:


> Why not. But it'll be a lengthy process.
> 
> 
> 
> Which year is this, exactly ? 1945 ?









1914

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Which process is lengthy?



development of one which fits the specification & qualification and productionisation of the same.



Anish9500 said:


> 1914



More than 103 years have passed.


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## Anish1

It has been more than a century of planes firing guns in the air but the failed Tejas cannot








gslv mk3 said:


> development of one which fits the specification & qualification and productionisation of the same.
> 
> 
> 
> More than 103 years have passed.



103 years and Tejas still does not have that capability?

Isn't that downright f*cking shameful ?


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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> development of one which fits the specification & qualification and productionisation of the same.



So was Tejas not designed to be fitted with a quartz nose cone in mind from the start? If so, why not?


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## Anish1

This aircraft has better air to air capability than the failed Tejas


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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> Show me where I brought jf-17 into this discussion.



I brought JF 17 into the discussion. Your statement that HAL guys are planning without 'understanding materials' is outright silly. Using composite was exactly the right thing to do. Because of that over 2000+ test flights that didn't need radar were carried out successfully. As mass production is ramping up the quartz radome is ready.



Dazzler said:


> So was Tejas not designed to be fitted with a quartz nose cone in mind fro the start? If so, why not?



no- Tejas was tested with composite because the quartz radome was not ready then.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> So was Tejas not designed to be fitted with a quartz nose cone in mind fro the start? If so, why not?



You design a radome to fit the aircraft, not the other way. .


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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I brought JF 17 into the discussion. Your statement that HAL guys are planning without 'understanding materials' is outright silly. Using composite was exactly the right thing to do. Because of that over 2000+ test flights that didn't need radar were carried out successfully. As mass production is ramping up the quartz radome is ready.
> 
> 
> 
> no- Tejas was tested with composite because the quartz radome was not ready then.



The question remains, why HAL can't make a freaking radome?


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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> 103 years and Tejas still does not have that capability?



Stupid much ? you should be crying about why LCA Tejas don't have a radial engine...



Dazzler said:


> The question remains, why HAL can't make a freaking radome?



because HAL is busy making the airframe ?


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## Anish1




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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> You design a radome to fit the aircraft, not the other way. .


Wait a minute, so how come Chobam designed a radome that could fit the Tejas?


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## PDF

@Anish9500 I think you need to calm down...Yes the Tejas project is not the best example out there but they are now correcting their mistakes moving forward ...though, quite late. The airplane itself is not bad but the management and planners are to be blamed. If Tejas was inducted early and improvements were done along with time, It would be a very credible aircraft for IAF.(JF-17 is a good example.Slowly and steadily, one wins the race). Still, Tejas project can be a serious threat to PAF when it completely materializes. Accountability and course correction is the way forward!

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## Anish1

*The Belgian Rattlesnake: Why the Lewis Gun was Feared and Revered for Three Decades*
10/05/12 | by Kristin Alberts

The Lewis Gun was the child of a world torn apart by warfare. What do you know about the first machine gun ever to be fired from an aircraft? This is a weapon that functioned reliably under horrible trench warfare conditions in The Great War, was mounted to aircraft and Navy vessels through World War II, earned a fearsome nickname, and saw service with well over a dozen countries, yet seems largely forgotten today. No more.



Advertisement



*The Lewis Gun*
The Lewis Automatic Machine Gun was gas operated and capable of firing 500 to 600 rounds per minute. It was chambered first in .303 British, then in .30-06 Springfield, both of which produced muzzle velocities around 2500 to 2600 fps. Lesser numbers were later chambered in 7.92×57 Mauser. At a mere 28-pounds, the Lewis Gun weighed only half as much as its counterparts. It was known as much more portable than say, the Vickers or Maxim, as it could easily be carried and operated by a single soldier. This light machine gun was easily recognized both by the large aluminum cooling shroud encasing the barrel as well as its top-mounted drum pan magazine, which could hold either 47 or 97 rounds and stood in stark contrast to all other belt fed machine guns of the time.

*History*


Invented in 1911 by then U.S. Army Col. Isaac Newton Lewis, the Lewis Gun drew heavily from earlier designs by Samuel McLean. In spite of the weapon’s ties to the Army, it was never warmly embraced by such. You see, Newton and the U.S. Chief of the Ordnance Department, Gen. William Crozier, suffered from some sort of political-personal differences. Thus it came to be that what could have been known as one of the most portable, light, ingenious machine guns of its time never got its just due in the great US of A.

After unsuccessfully pitching his brainchild, Lewis grew frustrated in his attempts to persuade the Army to adopt the design to which he had dedicated his life, and so resigned his Army commission to pursue production abroad. By 1913, Lewis had found a warm home in Belgium where he started the Armes Automatique Company in Liege. There, he commenced commercial production of what he called the Lewis Automatic Machine Gun. Concurrently, Lewis was also in contact with the Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) in Great Britain, who expressed interest in his weapon. 

In that same year of 1913, the Belgian Army officially adopted his design. They are known as the first parents to this .303 British round. It is said that when Germans first encountered the Lewis Gun while in combat with the Belgians in 1914, they were in such fear of the Lewis gun’s maneuverability, rapid and accurate fire, it came to be known as the “Belgian Rattlesnake.”

Shortly afterwards, BSA acquired a license from Lewis to manufacture the Lewis Machine Gun in the UK, which made him a wealthy man through the incoming royalties.

With the beginning of WWI, demand for this portable machine gun spiked, and BSA began mass production of what they called the Model 1914. Thus began a long, and well-traveled history of Col. Lewis’s vision for a new weapon which filled a niche in a world at war. 

*The design*
The most noticeable feature of Lewis’ gun was the aluminum barrel shroud, which provided forced air draft cooling. While this casing was meant to use the muzzle blast to pull air into the gun for cooling, many doubted its usefulness and speculated that perhaps its sole purpose was one of appearance, as the gun functioned flawlessly in the field without it. Many of the shrouds were removed, especially on those aircraft mounted guns, a tactic which also saved several pounds from the weight of the gun. 

The gun featured raised blade and tangent leaf sights, a front-mounted folding bipod, a wooden rear stock that could be replaced by a handle for maneuverability, and was listed to have an effective range of 800 meters and a maximum range of 3,200 meters. 





Though Lewis’ machine gun remained significantly more expensive to manufacture than the Vickers, it could be put together twice as fast. In addition, while the Vickers required a water siphon cooling tank and the less-compact belts of ammo, Lewis guns were more mobile and versatile given the weight, air cooling system, and 97-round drum magazines. Lewis’ adjustable clock-type recoil spring allowed the gun’s firing rate to be regulated. Though it was capable of 500 to 600 rounds per minute, shorter bursts of fire were most common. 

*Who used it*
Following its successful debuts in Belgium and Britain in early 1917, both the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps adopted the M1917 Lewis Gun, manufactured by Savage Arms Company and chambered in .30-06 Springfield. 

In spite of this, the U.S. Army never officially adopted the widely available Lewis Gun for infantry use, instead waiting on availability of the Browning Automatic Rifle, which did not reach front lines en masse until late 1918. Whether this is due to the rift between the two men can never really be proven. However, the Navy and Marines continued to use the .30-06 M1917 into WWII, and the U.S. Coast Guard also mounted many Lewis guns to its vessels. 

Shortly thereafter, the Russian Empire purchased 10,000 Lewis Guns from the British and another 10,000 from the U.S., though it is not clear how many were actually delivered. The Germans were so pleased to capture Lewis Guns in the field that they wrote a special manual and included instructions for its operation as part of their machine gun crew training, using the gun under the name MG137e. Cloning the Lewis Gun, the Japanese launched its Type 92 chambered in 7.7mm rimmed, a round very similar to the .303 British.

*An aircraft’s best friend and worst enemy*
Because of its portability, as well as the fact the cooling shroud could be removed, the Lewis gun found regular use as an aviation-mounted machine gun. In fact, the Lewis Gun will forever be known as the first machine gun successfully fired from an airplane. 

In June 1912, Capt. Charles Chandler of the U.S. Army fired a prototype Lewis Gun from a Wright Model B Flyer.

Many French and British aircraft during WWI were fitted with the Lewis gun and its self-contained 97-round magazines. They were also loaded with incendiary rounds and used as balloon-busters targeting enemy dirigibles. 

Not only was the Lewis gun used as an aircraft mounted weapon, it also saw expanded service as an anti-aircraft weapon during World War II. The Brits found it second to none at bringing down low-flying enemy aircraft, accounting for more such takedowns than any other British anti-aircraft gun of its time. 

*Downfall of the Lewis*
The Lewis gun reached its peak of service during WWI, though it was said to be used by forces operating against the United Nations in the Korean, First Indochina and Vietnam wars. By the time the end of WWII had rolled around, the Brits supplanted the Lewis with the Bren Gun for infantry use and the Vickers for airborne. American forces kept the -06 caliber Lewis in service throughout WWII, though its popularity faded after the BARbecame readily available.

Though the heydays of the Lewis ended long ago, bits of Col. Lewis’s insightful designs—including the clockwork spring and self-contained drum pan mag—went on to drive the development of other weapons, including the German FG42 and, consequently, the M60.

By the time the final Lewis gun was produced in 1946, around 150,000 of them had been put into circulation. Not bad for a gun that, without the belief and dedication of its maker, may not have ever been.

http://www.guns.com/2012/10/05/lewis-machine-gun/

Maybe HAL can import this as TOT from Belgium.

Will help failed Tejas clear FOC before June 2118


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Wait a minute, so how come Chobam designed a radome that could fit the Tejas?



Because we gave out a detailed global tender with specifications.

Am I replying to a 14 year old kid ?


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Stupid much ? you should be crying about why LCA Tejas don't have a radial engine...
> 
> 
> because HAL is busy making the airframe ?[\QUOTE]
> Didn't they claim tejas as a while as indigenous?? If so, they should be able to plan the development of components.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Didn't they claim tejas as a while as indigenous?? If so, they should be able to plan the development of components.



Nah, we will manage with outsourcing some of them while setting up production facilities to manufacture the same. After all we don't have to contend with 60% work share of the airframe.


----------



## Anish1

M.Musa said:


> @Anish9500 I think you need to calm down...Yes the Tejas project is not the best example out there but they are now correcting their mistakes moving forward ...though, quite late. The airplane itself is not bad but the management and planners are to be blamed. If Tejas was inducted early and improvements were done along with time, It would be a very credible aircraft for IAF.(JF-17 is a good example.Slowly and steadily, one wins the race). Still, Tejas project can be a serious threat to PAF when it completely materializes. Accountability and course correction is the way forward!



It's well known by now in IAF that the Tejas presents the greatest opportunity and opening ever to the PAF which has been effectively denied since 1971.

We will NOT let you have the technical edge ever again. Even if we have to fight the entire domestic defence industry but we will keep our air superiority over you permanently.

The Tejas will be buried 10 feet under before we let it deploy to WAC/SWAC.


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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Nah, we will manage with outsourcing some of them while setting up production facilities to manufacture the same. After all we don't have to contend with 60% work share of the airframe.



You should stop calling it indigenous or I'll start counting the foreign components.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> You should stop calling it indigenous or I'll start counting the foreign components.



Sure & I'll start counting the indigenous components.

If you can call something like JF 17 with so few Pakistani subsystems as a JV, we can call LCA indigenous.

or you can start with something non Indians- like this.

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## Anish1

The Tejas has only 1 rightful place












Heritage Center and Aerospace Museum, Bangalore


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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> The question remains, why HAL can't make a freaking radome?



'Quartz' Radome, not 'a radome'. Hal did deliver it by the time production started. The counter question is how are so many dozens of JF 17s fielded without these. I'm assuming now they'll never get that upgrade.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure & I'll start counting the indigenous components.
> 
> or you can start with something non Indians- like this.



I m not interested in Bla bla comparisons. Talk about Tejas and stick to it. Start counting indian components.


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## gslv mk3

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Quartz' Radome, not 'a radome'



bhai, you know according to @Dazzler bhai quartz radomes aren't composite material. I guess they shape them out of solid quartz crystals with chisels...



Dazzler said:


> I m not interested in Black bla comparisons. Talk about Tejas and stick to it. Start counting indian components.



Sure, it's only a problem when Indian does it.

I had made numerous posts on the same & you can try searching for them.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> bhai, you know according to @Dazzler bhai quartz radomes aren't composite material. I guess they shape them out of solid quartz crystals with chisels...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's only a problem when Indian does it.
> 
> I had made numerous posts on the same & you can try searching for them.



Indian components plz.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Indian components plz.



Start with avionics. Google is your friend.

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> Indian components plz.



highly simplified overview- 8 year olds type

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## gslv mk3

Guynextdoor2 said:


> highly simplified overview- 8 year olds type



at least 14 years old documentary

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## Anish1

At least 100 year old video






Tejas is a century behind modern day technology 

Perhaps they can import TOT from Prussia or Austria-Hungary

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## gslv mk3

^I'm done debating with stupid.

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## Anish1

The aircraft shown in the following video has far greater armament and is more potent than the HAL Tejas








Dazzler said:


> Indian components plz.



Pilot. The end.

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## Abingdonboy



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## X_Killer

Dazzler said:


> it is called reality check. How many radomes HAL made?


I don't expect such trolls from admin team.

I have a question, how many radomes PAC made?

___________________________________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, there is a good news that Kaveri GTX is in final stage of hiccups settling.
Now, they are building 4 test Prototypes. One out of four will be tested by SAFRAN at France's facility whereas other three will be tested in India.
It will be a good news for LCA MK-2 and AMCA. And may be Mk1A too

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## Rajaraja Chola

Dazzler said:


> Indian components plz.



Our own cockpit, our very own Fly by wire control system(code was written from scratch), Design, composites for aircraft structures, Integration of various avionics, Astra BVR missile. 

Trust me even if one gets all avionics, components it's damn tough to integrate and even more tough to test it. I design testers for high density PCB boards and designing testers and integration is no easy task. For fighters its even tough. 

Radar, HMD, EW suite, Infuelling probe, Ejection seat, Engine are the main foreign components. If that's the case even SAAB Gripen is not indigeneous. I dont want it to compare it to JF17, but if you guys can call it indigenous then Tejas more than enough fits the bill as we designed, integrated and tested the aircraft. 

Going onto the future our own radar is ready. EW suite and Pod are getting tested. Barring the Engine, HMD, Ejection seat they will be replaced with local components in future. Tejas can never be 100% indigenous. 70% is good for us.

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## Anish1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890420251392827392
Good steps being carried out by Modi govt but I feel they should be stricter and impose death penalty on DRDO/HAL scientists and engineers who fail to successfully complete a project within stipulated timeline.

Hang them publically in front of their families

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## Dazzler

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Our own cockpit, our very own Fly by wire control system(code was written from scratch), Design, composites for aircraft structures, Integration of various avionics, Astra BVR missile.
> 
> Trust me even if one gets all avionics, components it's damn tough to integrate and even more tough to test it. I design testers for high density PCB boards and designing testers and integration is no easy task. For fighters its even tough.
> 
> Radar, HMD, EW suite, Infuelling probe, Ejection seat, Engine are the main foreign components. If that's the case even SAAB Gripen is not indigeneous. I dont want it to compare it to JF17, but if you guys can call it indigenous then Tejas more than enough fits the bill as we designed, integrated and tested the aircraft.
> 
> Going onto the future our own radar is ready. EW suite and Pod are getting tested. Barring the Engine, HMD, Ejection seat they will be replaced with local components in future. Tejas can never be 100% indigenous. 70% is good for us.


Since you guys can't have a good sleep without dragging jf-17 or Alkhalid into every discussion, read this.
what does "jf" in jf-17 stands for? Its very name tells the story. but i believe it is too difficult to get that in your head.
As for gripen, Swedes have been developing their own fighters since 60s. Theyve pioneered techs like datalink and netcentric warfare. The Saab PS series radars are the beating heart of gripen.

Now, where does your aviation industry stand?


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> what does "jf" in jf-17 stands for? Its very name tells the story. but i believe it is too difficult to get that in your head.



Sure, but when the Indians develop their own aircraft without a JV, it is not indigenous.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure, but when the Indians develop their own aircraft without a JV, it is not indigenous.


Read Edit


----------



## Anish1

Designed by Dassault
Powered by General Electric
Given eyes by Elta
Ruined by ADA
Vandalised by HAL



X_Killer said:


> I don't expect such trolls from admin team.
> 
> I have a question, how many radomes PAC made?
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Anyways, there is a good news that Kaveri GTX is in final stage of hiccups settling.
> Now, they are building 4 test Prototypes. One out of four will be tested by SAFRAN at France's facility whereas other three will be tested in India.
> It will be a good news for LCA MK-2 and AMCA. And may be Mk1A too



Kaveri already cancelled in the past several times.

Tejas Mk 2 does not exist
AMCA does not exist
Tejas Mk1A does not exist

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Read Edit



There is nothing more to say. We developed the LCA indigenously without a JV through our own effort and we'll indigenize even more subsystems in the future.



Anish9500 said:


> Designed by Dassault
> Powered by General Electric
> Given eyes by Elta
> Ruined by ADA
> Vandalised by HAL



Musings of a retard.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Anish9500 said:


> Tejas gun is not integrated unlike Spitfire, Bf 109.
> 
> F-35 has a gun.
> 
> HAL cannot integrate IFR it is fully at fault, too busy exporting goat.


Are you a part of the team that integrates the IFR?

You say gun is not integrated right.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lca+tejas+fires+gun

And you have proven you know nothing about aircrafts...how it is tested and what all goes into it.

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## Water Car Engineer

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure, but when the Indians develop their own aircraft without a JV, it is not indigenous.




Dude, we know all about their shitty, 'JV's. Funny how you have to dig to find somethings like this --







Or find them importing whole modules.






There's literally no industry to speak of in Pakistan, yet they want us to believe some country with shit military budget has a defence, aerospace industry, good one. No one buys it, even if they're not as transparent.

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## ziaulislam

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, we know all about their shitty, 'JV's. Funny how you have to dig to find somethings like this --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or find them importing whole modules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's literally no industry to speak of in Pakistan, yet they want us to believe some country with shit military budget has a defence, aerospace industry, good one. No one buys it, even if they're not as transparent.


lol

hopefully you are doing good with your water car enginering

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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> lol
> 
> hopefully you are doing good with your water car enginering




Even simple certifications are done by your daddy.

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## gslv mk3

Water Car Engineer said:


> There's literally no industry to speak of in Pakistan



*List of ISO 9001:2008 Certified Aerospace Suppliers by nation*

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## Dazzler

X_Killer said:


> I don't expect such trolls from admin team.
> 
> I have a question, how many radomes PAC made?
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Anyways, there is a good news that Kaveri GTX is in final stage of hiccups settling.
> Now, they are building 4 test Prototypes. One out of four will be tested by SAFRAN at France's facility whereas other three will be tested in India.
> It will be a good news for LCA MK-2 and AMCA. And may be Mk1A too



* At least 16 radomes a year.
* Kaveri is a dead duck. investing in it means more commissions and kickbacks for ADA and HAL, 30 years, final destination is known already. Good for them.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> At least 16 radomes a year.



Show me pics.



Dazzler said:


> Kaveri is a dead duck.



the team at GTRE or the new consultants Safran doesn't think so. The opinion of someone who thinks that quartz radomes are not composite material is inconsequential in this case.


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Show me pics.
> 
> 
> 
> the team at GTRE or the new consultants Safran doesn't think so. The opinion of someone who thinks that quartz radomes are not composite material is inconsequential in this case.



* Google is your friend.

Offcourse they don't, they see BIG MONEY in it.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> * Google is your friend.
> 
> Offcourse they don't, they see BIG MONEY in it.



Sure...we are supposed to believe even if you claim 100% localization with just one certified aerospace vendor operating in your country...

There is no money involved, as Safran is doing this as a part of Rafale deal offset...Of course, we don't take the opinion of people from a 15 US patent/ year country at face value.

Anyway Pakistan can start with developing a tractor engine for that matter...


----------



## Mugwop

Anish9500 said:


> At least 100 year old video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas is a century behind modern day technology
> 
> Perhaps they can import TOT from Prussia or Austria-Hungary


There are some bad choices made regarding tejas but saying it's century behind modern day tech is kinda harsh.


----------



## Anish1

gslv mk3 said:


> There is nothing more to say. We developed the LCA indigenously without a JV through our own effort and we'll indigenize even more subsystems in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> Musings of a retard.



Facts. 

If you have no reply better to go
Home


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure...we are supposed to believe even if you claim 100% localization with just one certified aerospace vendor operating in your country...
> 
> There is no money involved, as Safran is doing this as a part of Rafale deal offset...Of course, we don't take the opinion of people from a 15 US patent/ year country at face value.
> 
> Anyway Pakistan can start with developing a tractor engine for that matter...



Nope, there is no aviation industry in Pakistan. But there is one in your country that has failed to develop, design, test and deliver the end product to the customer. The customer knows it's shortcomings and yet is forced to induct a handful for face saving. 
Refute that with proof.

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## gslv mk3

Anish9500 said:


> Facts.
> 
> If you have no reply better to go
> Home



Stop polluting this thread with your stupid rants.



Dazzler said:


> But there is one in your country that has failed to develop, design, test and deliver the end product to the customer.



Really ? I see at least 3 Indian developed aircraft in service with our armed forces & 3 more types on order.

And 1 additional Indian manufactured fighter in service with our air force.


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure, but when the Indians develop their own aircraft without a JV, it is not indigenous.


That's the core issue, they hire foreign consultants to design one and fanboys call it indigenous.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> That's the core issue, they hire foreign consultants to design one and fanboys call it indigenous.



The Chinese even hired foreign consultants for your JV. So much for Joint Venture...



Water Car Engineer said:


>



Chinese are no strangers to consultancies...


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Stop polluting this thread with your stupid rants.
> 
> 
> 
> Really ? I see at least 3 Indian developed aircraft in service with our armed forces & 3 more types on order.
> 
> And 1 additional Indian manufactured fighter in service with our air force.



Knock knock, Tejas.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Knock knock, Tejas.



In service with IOC.

Now show me one Pakistani developed ultralight aircraft.


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> The Chinese even hired foreign consultants for your JV. So much for Joint Venture...
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese are no strangers to consultancies...


Oh boy, Chengdu is in which country?


----------



## Anish1

Mugwop said:


> There are some bad choices made regarding tejas but saying it's century behind modern day tech is kinda harsh.



Tejas cannot integrate 100 year old technology. Reality itself is harsh.

I am just showing the mirror


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> In service with IOC.
> 
> Now show me one Pakistani developed ultralight aircraft.



the thread says tejas.


----------



## Anish1

gslv mk3 said:


> Stop polluting this thread with your stupid rants.
> 
> 
> 
> Really ? I see at least 3 Indian developed aircraft in service with our armed forces & 3 more types on order.
> 
> And 1 additional Indian manufactured fighter in service with our air force.



HAL is the only entity polluting Indian conventional superiority


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Oh boy, Chengdu is in which country?



Mikoyan is in which country, exactly ? Was it a JV partner ?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> That's the core issue, they hire foreign consultants to design one and fanboys call it indigenous.




Buddy, in your own JV the senior designer roped in consultants. This, "JV", was between Russia and China.  Wth can you do now, let alone the 90s? 






Even your daddy was found doing the same for their 100% designed crap.

Of course, this was found much later, not by the Chinese themselves.

For you non transparent lot, you always have to do some digging. God knows how much more are hidden.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Buddy, in your own JV the senior designer roped in consultants. This, "JV", was between Russia and China.  Wth can you do now, let alone the 90s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even your daddy was found doing the same for their 100% designed crap.
> 
> Of course, this was found much later, not by the Chinese themselves.
> 
> For you non transparent lot, you always have to do some digging. God knows how much more are hidden.



stick to Tejas, it seems you guys can't resist trolling.


----------



## Anish1

satishkumarcsc said:


> Are you a part of the team that integrates the IFR?
> 
> You say gun is not integrated right.
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lca+tejas+fires+gun
> 
> And you have proven you know nothing about aircrafts...how it is tested and what all goes into it.



Tejas cannot achieve the same air to air weaponry parity with the Bf 109, P-51 etc


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> stick to Tejas, it seems you guys can't resist trolling.




Dont throw stone from a glass house, no one buys your crap, not even in the remotest.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> stick to Tejas, it seems you guys can't resist trolling.



And now the yardstick for Tejas must be different, huh Mr. 'quartz radome not composite' guy ?


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Mikoyan is in which country, exactly ? Was it a JV partner ?


No offtopic nonsense, just Tejas.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> No offtopic nonsense, just Tejas.



Who exactly brought consultancies into the discussion ? And how is the yardstick for Tejas different from other, similar programs ?


----------



## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dont throw stone from a glass house, no one buys your crap, not even in the remotest.



I m not selling it in the first place. 



gslv mk3 said:


> Who exactly brought consultancies into the discussion ? And how is the yardstick for Tejas different from other, similar programs ?



Who designed Tejas? How is that irrelevant?


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Who designed Tejas? How is that irrelevant?



ADA did.


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> ADA did.



ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s, to replace the ageing Mig-21 fleet, the resulting Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) design became known as the HAL Tejas.

The design and sourcing of systems is/was all above board, as Dassault were *paid*, as are/were GE, Rafael, Sextant, Martin-Baker, Elbit, Cobham, …, HAL, so most technologies were properly licenced, so minimal plagiarism.

FYI: Flight International (24 Oct 1987) states Dassault-Breguet were contracted to supply 30 top flight engineers to ADA, for $100m ($218.5m in 2017). To aid in the initial design and system integration phases, with GE selected to supply F404-F2J3 engines for the prototypes.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq...PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false

Open your eyes, and get some knowledge.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> I m not selling it in the first place.




Good boy, cause like I said, no one buys it.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s, to replace the ageing Mig-21 fleet, the resulting Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) design became known as the HAL Tejas.



Nice BS

_ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s 
_
So Tejas is an improved Mirage 2000 ?

The reality is that Dassult had an advisory role

Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French aircraft major Dassault Aviation as consultants.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120327225622/http://tejas.gov.in:80/history/timeline.html



Dazzler said:


> The design and sourcing of systems is/was all above board, as Dassault were *paid*, as are/were GE, Rafael, Sextant, Martin-Baker, Elbit, Cobham, …, HAL, so most technologies were properly licenced



More Bs.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s, to replace the ageing Mig-21 fleet, the resulting Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) design became known as the HAL Tejas.
> 
> The design and sourcing of systems is/was all above board, as Dassault were *paid*, as are/were GE, Rafael, Sextant, Martin-Baker, Elbit, Cobham, …, HAL, so most technologies were properly licenced, so minimal plagiarism.
> 
> FYI: Flight International (24 Oct 1987) states Dassault-Breguet were contracted to supply 30 top flight engineers to ADA, for $100m ($218.5m in 2017). To aid in the initial design and system integration phases, with GE selected to supply F404-F2J3 engines for the prototypes.
> https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq=dassault+1986+india&id=wirzhu5EaqAC&lpg=PA173&ots=11H2YvFz0B&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false
> 
> Open your eyes, and get some knowledge.




Sure, they aided in the design. That doesnt discredit ADAs work as well.

There were several designs, including non-delta, non mirage type models.








ADA, HAL can do what it pleases with this design, if it wants to produce a twin seat variant, it can. If it wants to produce a naval variant it can. If it wants to certify the platform with a refuel probe, it can. The simplest of certifications you cant do without your daddy, please forget designing and importing hardware.

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## gslv mk3

See this NAL Project Report @Water Car Engineer
*
Wind tunnel tests on lca delta-5 configuration part II: results at supersonic speeds and analysis*

Narayan, KY and Gopinath, N (1986) _Wind tunnel tests on lca delta-5 configuration part II: results at supersonic speeds and analysis._ Project Report. National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore.

http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/11034/

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Sure, they aided in the design. That doesnt discredit ADAs work as well.
> 
> There were several designs, including non-delta, non mirage type models.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ADA, HAL can do what it pleases with this design, if it wants to produce a twin seat variant, it can. If it wants to produce a naval variant it can. If it wants to certify the platform with a refuel probe, it can. The simplest of certifications you cant do without your daddy, please forget designing and importing hardware.



Going off topic will fetch you -. Keep that in mind. 

So much trolling has robbed your ability to explain and discuss things.


----------



## gslv mk3

From Air Marshal MSD Wollen(Retd), then Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited 

Project definition (PD) commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September I988. The consultant, chosen from four contenders, was Dassault Aviation, France. Engineers, connected with design and development of aircraft know how vital it is to get the 'definition' correct. From this flows detail de-sign, construction and eventually maintenance costs.

After examining the PD documents, the IAF felt that the risks were too high (likely shortfalls in performance, inordinate delay, Cost over-run, price escalations) to proceed further. A Review Committee was formed in May 1989. Experts from outside the aviation industry were included. The general view was that infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced in most areas to undertake the project. As a precaution, Full Scale Engineering Development would proceed in two phases. Phase 1: design, construction and flight test of two Technology Demonstrator aircraft (TDI & 2); construction of a Structural Test Specimen; construction of two Prototype Vehicles (PVI &2); creation of infrastructure and test facilities. Phase 2: construction of three more PV '5, the last PV5, being a trainer; construction of a Fatigue Test Specimen; creation of facilities at various work centres. Cost of Phase I - Rs.2188 crores, of Phase II - Rs. 2,340 crores. Phase I commenced in 1990. However, due to a financial crunch, sanction was accorded in April 1993 and was marked by an upsurge in work. The critical path in this programme has been the design, fabrication and testing of its fly-by-wire flight control system FCS). An electronic FCS is a must for an aircraft with relaxed static stability.

http://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page_03.html


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Nice BS
> 
> _ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s
> _
> So Tejas is an improved Mirage 2000 ?
> 
> The reality is that Dassult had an advisory role
> 
> Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French aircraft major Dassault Aviation as consultants.
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20120327225622/http://tejas.gov.in:80/history/timeline.html
> 
> 
> 
> More Bs.



BS, you guys are still importing technologies from these companies. As i said, open your eyes. And, i would take Chris Smith's words over tejas website as they conveniently skipped several astonishing achievements.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> And, i would take Chris Smith's words over tejas website



From flightglobal magazine itself.

Dassault-Breguet has been selected *to assist *the Indian Aeronautical Development Authority (IADA) in the design and manufacture of a new Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the prototype's first flight scheduled in 1990. An official statement is expected soon. Thirty top-flight engineers from Dassault-Breguet are due in India shortly to act as *technical advisers* to IADA in charge of the LCA programme.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 2148.html?search=dassault lca

Also,



gslv mk3 said:


> From Air Marshal MSD Wollen(Retd), then Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
> 
> Project definition (PD) commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September I988. The consultant, chosen from four contenders, was Dassault Aviation, France. Engineers, connected with design and development of aircraft know how vital it is to get the 'definition' correct. From this flows detail de-sign, construction and eventually maintenance costs.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Going off topic will fetch you -. Keep that in mind.
> 
> So much trolling has robbed your ability to explain and discuss things.




Awww, that's so cute, tell your boyfriend to give me 100 more negatives. Daddy does all the work for you, but you wanna come here and kick dirt.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> BS, you guys are still importing technologies from these companies.



Posting BS from quora wouldn't help an troll who thinks quartz radomes aren't composite...or LCA can't pull 6 Gs.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Posting BS from quora wouldn't help an troll who thinks quartz radomes aren't composite...or LCA can't pull 6 Gs.



this is not from quora.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq...PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

gslv mk3 said:


> Posting BS from quora wouldn't help an troll who thinks quartz radomes aren't composite...or LCA can't pull 6 Gs.



Why are you showing light to the blind?

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> this is not from quora.
> https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq=dassault+1986+india&id=wirzhu5EaqAC&lpg=PA173&ots=11H2YvFz0B&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false



And I've quoted a much more direct source- flight global about the same. And then HAL Chairman.



Dazzler said:


> The design and sourcing of systems is/was all above board, as Dassault were *paid*, as are/were GE, Rafael, Sextant, Martin-Baker, Elbit, Cobham, …, HAL, so most technologies were properly licenced, so minimal plagiarism.



This ain't from quora ?


----------



## Mugwop

Anish9500 said:


> Tejas cannot integrate 100 year old technology. Reality itself is harsh.
> 
> I am just showing the mirror


Why would the engineers of tejas want to integrate a 100 year old tech when everyone wants to move into the future with stealth ?


----------



## Dazzler

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Why are you showing light to the blind?



Abstain from personal attacks. Address me directly if you have a question or something useful to share on the topic.


----------



## desimorty

> ADA *paid* Dassault for help developing an *improved* Dassault Mirage 2000 back in the 1980’s, to replace the ageing Mig-21 fleet, the resulting Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) design became known as the HAL Tejas.
> 
> The design and sourcing of systems is/was all above board, as Dassault were *paid*, as are/were GE, Rafael, Sextant, Martin-Baker, Elbit, Cobham, …, HAL, so most technologies were properly licenced, so minimal plagiarism.
> 
> FYI: Flight International (24 Oct 1987) states Dassault-Breguet were contracted to supply 30 top flight engineers to ADA, for $100m ($218.5m in 2017). To aid in the initial design and system integration phases, with GE selected to supply F404-F2J3 engines for the prototypes.
> https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq...PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false
> 
> Open your eyes, and get some knowledge.


What are you talking about? The Mirage 2000 and the Tejas have drastically different airframes. They maylook similar but thats were the similarities end! Dassault was a consolatory on the project. The projects airframe came from the same idea that spawned the Gripen! Are you saying Gripen is a mirage 2000 improved? There is evidence of this. Tejas comes from the same airframes and the same time Europe was conceiving the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen.

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## Anish1

Mugwop said:


> Why would the engineers of tejas want to integrate a 100 year old tech when everyone wants to move into the future with stealth ?



And all stealth fighters will have their cannon as their main weapon assuming opposing number is also stealth and radar lock is next to impossible.


----------



## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Dazzler said:


> this is not from quora.
> https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq=dassault+1986+india&id=wirzhu5EaqAC&lpg=PA173&ots=11H2YvFz0B&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q=dassault 1986 india&f=false



that whole statement is quoting media reports. "it was reported....." try to understand the difference.



Dazzler said:


> Abstain from personal attacks. Address me directly if you have a question or something useful to share on the topic.



There is no point sharing useful stuff here, its a comedy show...

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## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890420251392827392
> Good steps being carried out by Modi govt but I feel they should be stricter and impose death penalty on DRDO/HAL scientists and engineers who fail to successfully complete a project within stipulated timeline.
> 
> Hang them publically in front of their families


Dude, its India not North Korea or any other Terrorist state. We have democracy and law.

Request you to please share informations from credible sources.

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## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> Dude, its India not North Korea or any other Terrorist state. We have democracy and law.
> 
> Request you to please share informations from credible sources.



By publically hanging a 100 HAL engineers we will be able to initiate the process of developing an aerospace Industry in India



Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> that whole statement is quoting media reports. "it was reported....." try to understand the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no point sharing useful stuff here, its a comedy show...



The Tejas is a comedy show for the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force


----------



## Dazzler

Anish9500 said:


> By publically hanging a 100 HAL engineers we will be able to initiate the process of developing an aerospace Industry in India
> 
> 
> 
> The Tejas is a comedy show for the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force



And the navy left the show.


----------



## Anish1

Dazzler said:


> And the navy left the show.



Good for the Indian Navy.

Going to deploy either Rafale M or F-18 SH.

Complement existing Mig 29K.


----------



## X_Killer

Dazzler said:


> * At least 16 radomes a year.
> * Kaveri is a dead duck. investing in it means more commissions and kickbacks for ADA and HAL, 30 years, final destination is known already. Good for them.


Still with chinese material.
I donno why you call it a Indigenous jet. As per you definition, HAL already did too much in mig-21, Jaguar, hawks and even Su-30MKI but still didn't call them Indigenous.

Please checkout the history of you so called Indigenously painted fc-1 aka jf-17. The basic development stated in 1986 whereas tejas' visible work started in 1992.
Tejas has IOC-1, IOC-2 clearance will you please share the same for JF.

When it comes to naming your jet , it was also nothing more than a copy paste Tech.
J-7 + FC-1 = JF-17 

If you have any other or better answer than please share it without putting ban on any Indian member, ban on Indians becomes an identity of PDF. Think about it

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## gslv mk3

X_Killer said:


> Still with chinese material.



Probably it is fully imported- only 60% of the work on airframe is done by them.

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## Mugwop

@Anish9500 
Let's say if you were in charge of the tejas program what would you do different?


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## X_Killer

Dazzler said:


> stick to Tejas, it seems you guys can't resist trolling.


You must let your jf-17 out of this thread. Isn't it?


----------



## GuardianRED

Mugwop said:


> @Anish9500
> Let's say if you were in charge of the tejas program what would you do different?


How pathetic one has to be to bait a troll .... wait i see one!

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## Anish1

Mugwop said:


> @Anish9500
> Let's say if you were in charge of the tejas program what would you do different?



Cancel it and focus on building a basic turboprop trainer first.

100% indigenous from engine to ejection seat.

Then move on to the next level.


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## gslv mk3

GuardianRED said:


> How pathetic one has to be to bait a troll .... wait i see one!



Negative ratings are coming...run for your life !!!

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## Mugwop

GuardianRED said:


> How pathetic one has to be to bait a troll .... wait i see one!


Pathetic people don't have the nerve to listen to different opinions they don't like,Pathetic people insult others online but are too scared to do so in real life. Now if you don't like it here then STFU and leave.


----------



## X_Killer

Mugwop said:


> Why would the engineers of tejas want to integrate a 100 year old tech when everyone wants to move into the future with stealth ?


Isn't it a troll ?
Soon all admin team will be here to troll LCA. 
This shows the success stories of LCA


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Negative ratings are coming...run for your life !!!



Only for off topic trash, stay on topic and enjoy the show.


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> Isn't it a troll ?
> Soon all admin team will be here to troll LCA.
> This shows the success stories of LCA



Success story of LCA will be when Gripen or F-16 is inducted as IAF's Light Combat Aircraft.


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> By publically hanging a 100 HAL engineers we will be able to initiate the process of developing an aerospace Industry in India


I'm repeating my words, 
We have democracy and Laws to act strictly. We are not North Korea or any other Terrorist state.
Hope it give some light to your brain.

Also please share any info from credible sources


----------



## Mugwop

X_Killer said:


> Isn't it a troll ?
> Soon all admin team will be here to troll LCA.
> This shows the success stories of LCA


This is a defence forum and I am questioning his reasoning. What's wrong in doing so?


----------



## X_Killer

X_Killer said:


> Stillnith chinese material.
> I donno why you call it a Indigenous jet. As per you definition, HAL already did too much in mig-21, Jaguar, hawks and even Su-30MKI but still didn't call them Indigenous.
> 
> Please checkout the history of you so called Indigenously painted fc-1 aka jf-17. The basic development stated in 1986 whereas tejas' visible work started in 1992.
> Tejas has IOC-1, IOC-2 clearance will you please share the same for JF.
> 
> When it comes to naming your jet , it was also nothing more than a copy paste Tech.
> J-7 + FC-1 = JF-17
> 
> If you have any other or better answer than please share it without putting ban on any Indian member, ban on Indians becomes an identity of PDF. Think about it


Nice way you are using to hide the posts.

Cheers for you


----------



## GuardianRED

gslv mk3 said:


> Negative ratings are coming...run for your life !!!



Maybe a ban


Mugwop said:


> Pathetic people don't have the nerve to listen to different opinions they don't like,Pathetic people insult others online but are too scared to do so in real life. Now if you don't like it here then STFU and leave.


Wow and you are an analyst..... you must be bad at your job with you engaging a troll... who has destroyed this thread with ww2 post!!!

Sad and pathetic


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> Success story of LCA will be when Gripen or F-16 is inducted as IAF's Light Combat Aircraft.


Don't worry, we'll take care of them


----------



## GuardianRED

Dazzler said:


> Only for off topic trash, stay on topic and enjoy the show.


That is so funny.... and yet you allow Troll to post ww2 pics and videos with no negative ratings !!!!...double standards!!

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## gslv mk3

Anyway on topic- ADA Annual report 2015-16







Note item number 1. Another item indigenized though with delays.

And this shows how difficult developing & qualifying such a component actually is- even an acclaimed institution like VSSC (ISRO) had trouble developing this. Some people will never understand.

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## Mugwop

GuardianRED said:


> Maybe a ban
> 
> Wow and you are an analyst..... you must be bad at your job with you engaging a troll... who has destroyed this thread with ww2 post!!!
> 
> Sad and pathetic


If you go back a few pages others engaged with him as well. Why are you irked by me doing so? 
Insulting random people online is a sign of sad and pathetic. keyboard warrior


----------



## X_Killer

GuardianRED said:


> Maybe a ban


Yup, that the way to kill truth.


----------



## Dazzler

GuardianRED said:


> That is so funny.... and yet you allow Troll to post ww2 pics and videos with no negative ratings !!!!...double standards!!



Context is the key, he is using those to support his arguments. Whereas some of your compatriots bring jf-17 and gripen and what not without thinking. 

This shows how trolling has reduced your ability to argue and understand.


----------



## GuardianRED

Mugwop said:


> If you go back a few pages others engaged with him as well. Why are you irked by me doing so?
> Insulting random people online is a sign of sad and pathetic. keyboard warrior


and you just describing yourself!.... Good for you!! recognition is the first step to healing!!

If you bother to check and actually go back a few pages and bother to read .... many of us engage the troll and countered his so called facts .... and asked him to do the same , but till now hasn't. This is what got him banned on other forums and now he is here

Look like your agenda is to allow him to be a troll and destory this thread.... which is just sad and pity and pathetic



Dazzler said:


> Context is the key, he is using those to support his arguments. Whereas some of your compatriots bring jf-17 and gripen and what not without thinking.
> 
> This shows how trolling has reduced your ability to argue and understand.


CONTEXT!!!!! .....lol.... that is what you are calling it???? .,.... posting WW1 and WW2 pics to prove what???!!! .... what a pathetic reasoning!

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## X_Killer

Let's put some fire

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## gslv mk3

Anyway, someone talked about quartz radomes, here is one developed by DRDO for radome of a missile.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Anyway, someone talked about quartz radomes, here is one developed by DRDO for radome of a missile.
> 
> View attachment 416150



Try fitting that to the tejas.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Try fitting that to the tejas.



Sure, radome for missiles are now supposed to fit fighters.

Anyway, did you start attending material science classes ?


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> Don't worry, we'll take care of them



IAF and IN will. 

Not delusional indian forumers.

Thankfully



X_Killer said:


> Let's put some fire



Only fire in the engine.


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> IAF and IN will.


In my post we stands for developers and users.
Better luck next time..


Anish9500 said:


> Not delusional indian forumers.
> 
> Thankfully
> 
> 
> 
> Only fire in the engine.


@Dazzler 
Why shouldn't I call it a TROLL.

what's the need of these pics on this thread


----------



## Anish1

The Spitfire had 8 cannons.
The Tejas has zero cannons






HAL should get the TOT for this advanced weaponry ( as per HAL standards )






This is a must watch video for all deranged HAL fanboys who like killing IAF pilots


----------



## X_Killer

Dazzler said:


> Try fitting that to the tejas.


I hope below link will help you in this case.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=Radome.jsp
@gslv mk3



Anish9500 said:


> The Spitfire had 8 cannons.
> The Tejas has zero cannons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAL should get the TOT for this advanced weaponry ( as per HAL standards )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a must watch video for all deranged HAL fanboys who like killing IAF pilots


@Dazzler @The Eagle 
Please stop this guys from posting trolls and unwanted WW1 an WW2 videos and pics.

@Anish9500 
Fit all cannons in your own jet instead of other sophisticated weapons and technologies. 
Spitfire can't carry LGBs, bvr missile, rockets,etc. In other words it doesn't have anything other than guns

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## Dazzler

X_Killer said:


> I hope below link will help you in this case.
> https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=Radome.jsp
> @gslv mk3
> 
> 
> @Dazzler @The Eagle
> Please stop this guys from posting trolls and unwanted WW1 an WW2 videos and pics.
> 
> @Anish9500
> Fit all cannons in your own jet instead of other sophisticated weapons and technologies.
> Spitfire can't carry LGBs, bvr missile, rockets,etc. In other words it doesn't have anything other than guns



Basic radome assemblies, not Quartz radomes.

*Project Milestones/Achievements*


Delivery of Radome Assembly with due Airworthiness Certification for PV1 Aircraft
4 VTR Mouldings for PV4, PV5 & 2 Flight Standby completed
Coupon level Mech., EM & Environmental Tests for QTAT completed which will be followed by Full Scale Radome Level Tests
Cobham quartz radome..


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Basic radome assemblies



It's called 'Kevlar radome' because the reinforcement is Kevlar. A quartz radome is not much different in construction.


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> I hope below link will help you in this case.
> https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=Radome.jsp
> @gslv mk3
> 
> 
> @Dazzler @The Eagle
> Please stop this guys from posting trolls and unwanted WW1 an WW2 videos and pics.
> 
> @Anish9500
> Fit all cannons in your own jet instead of other sophisticated weapons and technologies.
> Spitfire can't carry LGBs, bvr missile, rockets,etc. In other words it doesn't have anything other than guns



IAF requires cannon.

If HAL cannot put cannon in Tejas it should shift to Maldives and make light combat aircraft for the Maldivian Air Force, Maldivian Naval Air Force and the Maldivian Marine Air Corps.

The soviets featured these "Tejas Killers"

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## Mujraparty

^^^
this moron should be made defence minister of our country , we might see spitfire's and P-51 getting inducted to IAF ...

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## Anish1

Another "Tejas Killer"






Won't even require an automated machine gun to down a few Tejas only if faced with a few Tejas squadrons 

This rifle should be enough for a one vs 6 Tejas sortie






And the biggest irony that the Tejas was supposed to replace this when in reality the Mig 21 can serve as a replacement for the Tejas


----------



## X_Killer

@Mugwop USERR=11574]@Dazzler[/USER] @The Eagle
Why you guys are not taking any action against the above troller (@Anish9500 )?


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> @Dazzler @The Eagle
> Why you guys are not taking any action against the above troller (@Anish9500 )?



I have stated facts whereas you have been caught lying on multiple occasions


----------



## Mugwop

GuardianRED said:


> and you just describing yourself!.... Good for you!! recognition is the first step to healing!!
> 
> If you bother to check and actually go back a few pages and bother to read .... many of us engage the troll and countered his so called facts .... and asked him to do the same , but till now hasn't. This is what got him banned on other forums and now he is here
> 
> Look like your agenda is to allow him to be a troll and destory this thread.... which is just sad and pity and pathetic
> 
> 
> CONTEXT!!!!! .....lol.... that is what you are calling it???? .,.... posting WW1 and WW2 pics to prove what???!!! .... what a pathetic reasoning!


When did i go around insulting random people online for no reason? Learn the definition of a keyboard warrior. 
People who go on off-topic rants against Pakistan are destroying this thread not him. 
What will I gain by destroying this thread? 
Moderators give me this keyboard warrior's ip address so that the next time I am in UAE. I could pay him a visit in person.


----------



## GuardianRED

Mugwop said:


> When did i go around insulting random people online for no reason? Learn the definition of a keyboard warrior.
> People who go on off-topic rants against Pakistan are destroying this thread not him.
> What will I gain by destroying this thread?
> Moderators give me this keyboard warrior's ip address so that the next time I am in UAE. I could pay him a visit in person.


Meaning that you still haven't read any of the most of the posts that is ON TOPIC , which we have continuously countered the troll ! and yet you are defending him! of which he continuously post ww1 and ww2 post in the last half hour!.... Shows your intent!


----------



## X_Killer

GuardianRED said:


> Meaning that you still haven't read any of the most of the posts that is ON TOPIC , which we have continuously countered the troll ! and yet you are defending him! of which he continuously post ww1 and ww2 post in the last half hour!.... Shows your intent!


Admin team is enjoying the WW1 and WW2 pics.
This way they like this troller very much.
I don't see such a biased admin team anywhere.

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## Anish1

The gun in the front and the line of bullets is what matters when you operate from the frontline bases of Srinagar, Pathankot, Jaisalmer, Jamnagar.

Why is why the Tejas does not serve any military purpose in the Indian Air Force.

Indian Navy already rejected and canceled Naval Tejas.



X_Killer said:


> Admin team is enjoying the WW1 and WW2 pics.
> This way they like this troller very much.
> I don't see such a biased admin team anywhere.



All those WW1 aircraft can achieve air superiority over the Tejas.

WW2 is the next generation perhaps the paper plane AMCA can be up for a competition


----------



## X_Killer

Congratulations that your jet have the same model of cannon as Tejas have , even the same number of cannon fitted on Tejas.

But won't see any pic of fire trial of your jet, but here we have video of Ground cannon trial of Tejas. Request you to ethier stop trolling or share the proof for your jet.


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> Congratulations that your jet have the same model of cannon as Tejas have , even the same number of cannon fitted on Tejas.
> 
> But won't see any pic of fire trial of your jet, but here we have video of Ground cannon trial of Tejas. Request you to ethier stop trolling or share the proof for your jet.



Let's designate the HAL factory an IAF base and designate another corner a PAF base and another corner a PLAAF base and invite them over so the Tejas can fire its cannon in combat ?


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> Let's designate the HAL factory an IAF base and designate another corner a PAF base and another corner a PLAAF base and invite them over so the Tejas can fire its cannon in combat ?


Still reluctant to share proofs for you troll. And changed you topic of troll.
LoL


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> Congratulations that your jet have the same model of cannon as Tejas have , even the same number of cannon fitted on Tejas.
> 
> But won't see any pic of fire trial of your jet, but here we have video of Ground cannon trial of Tejas. Request you to ethier stop trolling or share the proof for your jet.



Seeing as aircraft are meant to fly essentialy be in the air can the Tejas fire its gun in the air? 

Like these aircraft ? If not then obviously the Tejas is inferior to these aircraft 








X_Killer said:


> Still reluctant to share proofs for you troll. And changed you topic of troll.
> LoL



Where is the proof Tejas can fire gun in the air?

Don't come until you get proof.


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> Seeing as aircraft are meant to fly essentialy be in the air can the Tejas fire its gun in the air?
> 
> Like these aircraft ? If not then obviously the Tejas is inferior to these aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the proof Tejas can fire gun in the air?
> 
> Don't come until you get proof.


No-one is claiming Tejas fire it's gun in air but my question is whether you jet did it?

@Mugwop @Dazzler @The Eagle 
How you guys justify these ww1 and WW2 warplanes 's pics in LCA Thread?


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> No-one is claiming Tejas fire it's gun in air but my question is whether you jet did it?
> 
> @Mugwop @Dazzler @The Eagle
> How you guys justify these ww1 and WW2 warplanes 's pics in LCA Thread?



You jet did it?

What are you ranting about ?


----------



## X_Killer

You need to consult a doctor.
I'll prey for you. 
*Get well soon..


Anish9500 said:



You jet did it?

What are you ranting about ?

Click to expand...

*


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> You need to consult a doctor.
> I'll prey for you.
> *Get well soon..
> *



HAL needs to consult an aerospace company on how to create flying objects 

You need to see the mirror

The Post WW2 Mig 15 in action what is in common with BF109 and Spitfire?






The cannon



CONNAN said:


> *HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year*
> 
> On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) was cleared to enter operational service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Now Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) faces the daunting transition from handcrafting Tejas prototypes into factory-assembling the 200-fighter Tejas fleet that Defence Minister A K Antony has envisioned.
> 
> The ministry of defence (MoD) has sanctioned Rs 1,556 crore for HAL's high-tech production line that aims to build 12 Tejas fighters each year. The funds will come from the IAF (25 per cent); the navy (25 per cent), while HAL will put up half the money.
> 
> Business Standard visited the new Tejas production line, an expansive 28,000-square metre facility in four massive hangars in HAL, Bangalore. Work is already underway on the first IAF order of 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, with an order for 20 more in the pipeline once the aircraft gets "final operational clearance" next year. The first two fighters being "series produced" - they are numbered SP-1 and SP-2 - are visibly taking shape.
> 
> "By end-March 2014, SP-1 will fly, and SP-2 will fly a few months later. By the end of next year four Tejas will be in production. In 2015-16, we will build six fighters, and in 2016-17, we will build nine. We are targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters," says V Sridharan, the project manager hand-chosen to build the LCA. Earlier, he set up HAL's production line for the Hawk trainer.
> 
> Over the years, excellent designs like the Arjun tank have failed the transition from design into product. This is because India's archaic defence production policies make the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) responsible for designing equipment, with production responsibility then passing onto a network of eight defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) and 39 ordnance factories (OFs) with long reputations for sloppy production. Having played little role in design, the manufacturing agencies struggle to produce the system.
> 
> The Tejas could be a game-changer. Firstly, HAL has played a major role both in designing the Tejas and in building prototypes for the flight-test programme. Secondly, HAL has brought a radically new approach to Tejas production, adopting global aerospace manufacturing standards and an unprecedented approach to quality control.
> 
> Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.
> 
> "As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels," explains Sridharan.
> 
> This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called "locators") on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.
> 
> It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of "stabilising" the Tejas line.
> 
> "Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.
> 
> That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.
> 
> Within ADA and in HAL, there is expectation that better production could improve aircraft performance. "Better build quality could well improve the Tejas' aerodynamic performance, reducing drag, and improving its speed, rate of climb and turn rate," says a designer.
> 
> HAL's chairman, RK Tyagi, explains that the international best practices being introduced in the Tejas assembly line will be replicated across all the aerospace giant's production lines, including the Sukhoi-30MKI line in Nashik and the Hawk trainer line in Bangalore.
> 
> "We have earmarked Rs 3,500 crore of HAL funds for making our production lines world class. Our focus is to gain the IAF's confidence. We will do what is necessary for that," says Tyagi.
> 
> HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year | Business Standard News



lol even this did not happen 

RK Tyagi is a scumbag



Storm Force said:


> Modi should cancel the rafale deal now....
> 
> Comit to tejas programme
> 
> And tell iaf no new fighters from abroad until Fgfa



And IAF would be no better than the Coast Guard if that happened


----------



## X_Killer

Anish9500 said:


> HAL needs to consult an aerospace company on how to create flying objects
> 
> You need to see the mirror
> 
> The Post WW2 Mig 15 in action what is in common with BF109 and Spitfire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cannon
> 
> 
> 
> lol even this did not happen
> 
> RK Tyagi is a scumbag


I'm still repeating my question.
Where is jf-17's (your jet) cannon fire , LGBs trial proofs or else you are using spitfires...


I can't do anything to your trolls because here we have a biased admin team. I already reported almost a dozen of trolls but still you are free to troll..
Anyway do not reply if you don't have any credible proofs for your jet..


----------



## Anish1

X_Killer said:


> I'm still repeating my question.
> Where is jf-17's (your jet) cannon fire , LGBs trial proofs or else you are using spitfires...
> 
> 
> I can't do anything to your trolls because here we have a biased admin team. I already reported almost a dozen of trolls but still you are free to troll..
> Anyway do not reply if you don't have any credible proofs for your jet..



What does Jf-17 have to do with the IAF?

You are a delusional fool 

This is no trolling this is the fact the same way the Indian Navy buried the crap Tejas in a watery grave.


----------



## X_Killer

HAL Tejas is armed with a single Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barreled 23 mm autocannon . It has a rate of fire of 3,400-3,600 rounds/min and uses a 23x115 mm AM-23 ammunition . It is also used by Mig-21 (M, SM, MF, SMT, bis) , Mig-23 variants and other ground attack aircrafts like SOKO J-22 Orao and IAR 93. GSh-23 works on the Gast Gun principle in which the firing action of one barrel operates the mechanism of the other. It provides a much faster rate of fire for lower mechanical wear than a single-barrel weapon. HAL Tejas can carry some 220 rounds of ammunition. Coincidentally JF-17 , is also armed with a GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon .

Gsh-23 on Tejas






Gsh-23 on jf-17






*But the difference comes out when we talk about trials

LCA TEJAS gun trial








http://idrw.org/pic-lca-tejas-mk1-firing-gsh-23-cannon-gun-in-ground-firing-trials/

But there is no confirmatory proof available for its counterpart (which is again and again ignored by guy in above posts)*

Enjoy more pics of desi bird


----------



## Anish1

LCA-Tejas FOC delayed: Update 


Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre while replying to a question put forward by a Parliamentarian in Rajya Sabha said that Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCA-Tejas will likely happen by June 2018.

Firing of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile with radar guidance already has been achieved but it will require further testing to meet FOC Standards, while Close Combat Missile (Python-5 ) testing is pending due to delays in carrying out modification required by OEM (Israel) for integration into LCA-Tejas for trials as per Industrial sources close to idrw.org .

India already has integrated Russian supplied R-73 Within Visual range Air-to-Air missile (WVRAAM) but decided to all so equip LCA-Tejas with Israeli manufactured Python-5 WVRAAM.

Flight testing of Tejas with an air-to-air-refuelling probe is progressing well, but much of the flight testing will be completed in the last phase since IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA-Tejas MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately but it IFR trials are mandatory requirements which need to be cleared for granting of FOC Certifications .

*Canon Gun trials of LCA-Tejas has been carried out in Ground based trials before in flight based trials could begin, but due to bad wheater at weapons testing site and due to other reasons, it is has been kept pending but testing will be completed in next few months. Other Air-to-ground weapon trials have been largely completed.

http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/*

Unless Tejas is being converted into a tank to replace dysfunctional Arjun the Tejas needs to fire its cannon in the air


----------



## Mugwop

GuardianRED said:


> Meaning that you still haven't read any of the most of the posts that is ON TOPIC , which we have continuously countered the troll ! and yet you are defending him! of which he continuously post ww1 and ww2 post in the last half hour!.... Shows your intent!


If I was here to defend him then I wouldn't engage him at all. 



X_Killer said:


> No-one is claiming Tejas fire it's gun in air but my question is whether you jet did it?
> 
> @Mugwop @Dazzler @The Eagle
> How you guys justify these ww1 and WW2 warplanes 's pics in LCA Thread?


I never justified it man that is why I engaged with that dude. I don't have the power to ban people either. 
Just ignore him until the mods make their decision.

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## Kedardel

Tejas seems to be doing well, needs to upgrade the manufacturing....


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## X_Killer

Kedardel said:


> Tejas seems to be doing well, needs to upgrade the manufacturing....


HAL slowed down the Production of IOC-1 Tejas because they don't want to put production line idle till waiting for FOC tejas.
By 2018 HAL will have Capability to produce 16 jets per year, so they can handle the Production within the schedule..


----------



## PakEye

Anish1 said:


> LCA-Tejas FOC delayed: Update
> 
> 
> Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre while replying to a question put forward by a Parliamentarian in Rajya Sabha said that Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCA-Tejas will likely happen by June 2018.
> 
> Firing of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile with radar guidance already has been achieved but it will require further testing to meet FOC Standards, while Close Combat Missile (Python-5 ) testing is pending due to delays in carrying out modification required by OEM (Israel) for integration into LCA-Tejas for trials as per Industrial sources close to idrw.org .
> 
> India already has integrated Russian supplied R-73 Within Visual range Air-to-Air missile (WVRAAM) but decided to all so equip LCA-Tejas with Israeli manufactured Python-5 WVRAAM.
> 
> Flight testing of Tejas with an air-to-air-refuelling probe is progressing well, but much of the flight testing will be completed in the last phase since IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA-Tejas MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately but it IFR trials are mandatory requirements which need to be cleared for granting of FOC Certifications .
> 
> *Canon Gun trials of LCA-Tejas has been carried out in Ground based trials before in flight based trials could begin, but due to bad wheater at weapons testing site and due to other reasons, it is has been kept pending but testing will be completed in next few months. Other Air-to-ground weapon trials have been largely completed.
> 
> http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/*
> 
> Unless Tejas is being converted into a tank to replace dysfunctional Arjun the Tejas needs to fire its cannon in the air


----------



## Rajaraja Chola

Dazzler said:


> Since you guys can't have a good sleep without dragging jf-17 or Alkhalid into every discussion, read this.
> what does "jf" in jf-17 stands for? Its very name tells the story. but i believe it is too difficult to get that in your head.
> As for gripen, Swedes have been developing their own fighters since 60s. Theyve pioneered techs like datalink and netcentric warfare. The Saab PS series radars are the beating heart of gripen.
> 
> Now, where does your aviation industry stand?



I saw your other discussions. You call it as indigenous when you guys never integrated a single component, tested etc and it was delivered to you guys. You have 51% ownership and yes it is yours. If you can call 17 as yours why cant we call Tejas as indigenous? 

Infact we loved your model and are proceeding with PakFA on 17 lines.

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## Guynextdoor2

gslv mk3 said:


> Sure, but when the Indians develop their own aircraft without a JV, it is not indigenous.



He even thinks JF 17 is a competent jet. Let it be dude. Even china has admitted it is a modern Mig 21. The nose cone of previous gen being too high on the RCS a conventional cone was strapped on it. They just keep feeding themselves this stuff.

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## nik141993

so a country with industrial capability of stiching underwears for which even the machines are imported from China is bragging about its aerospace prowess LOL

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## X_Killer

nik141993 said:


> so a country with industrial capability of stiching underwears for which even the machines are imported from China is bragging about its aerospace prowess LOL


Bro, stick with the topic, plz


----------



## Abingdonboy



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## ejaz007

*Update:*

*August 11/17: *Deliveries of the LCA Tejas aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been delayed



after the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) announced that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has delivered only four aircraft to the IAF out of 40 ordered in 2005. The four aircraft so far delivered are from a batch of 20 designated for initial operational clearance (IOC), while the remaining 20 aircraft were designated for final operational clearance (FOC). In order to ramp up production, the government has established a second manufacturing line to support “structural and equipping activities. HAL has also altered the production of certain components and has reduced the manufacturing cycle time by improving supply chain management and boosting workforce.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...10-but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine-01901/


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## Abingdonboy



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## Lord Of Gondor

Wonderful interview with Group Captain (Veteran) Suneet Krishna
Please share and subscribe to this channel guys, we need more such exclusive interviews from them.
@Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @GuardianRED @Unknowncommando @Kinetic and the rest...

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## Kedardel

Abingdonboy said:


>


Why cant the drop tanks be aero dynamic. Copy paste from Mig 21 drop tanks.


----------



## ranadd

Kedardel said:


> Why cant the drop tanks be aero dynamic. Copy paste from Mig 21 drop tanks.



I think they are standard dimension ones. And it works. Already this jet suffers from over engineering. There is no point for us to replicate everything from set go. It is ok to have multiple iterations. 

It makes more sense from a regulatory perspective as well. FOC is a regulatory issue.


----------



## Dark Lord Forever

ranadd said:


> I think they are standard dimension ones. And it works. Already this jet suffers from over engineering. There is no point for us to replicate everything from set go. It is ok to have multiple iterations.
> 
> It makes more sense from a regulatory perspective as well. FOC is a regulatory issue.


foc meaning everything work fine. foc only given after all check. if one thing not work then foc not given. so tejas not getting foc mening something not work in tejas. big issue.


----------



## X_Killer

Kedardel said:


> Why cant the drop tanks be aero dynamic. Copy paste from Mig 21 drop tanks.


Do you really think its a copy paste from mig-21s and not aerodynamic 
But the truth is totally different.

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## Dark Lord Forever

Sumit Tayal said:


> I don't know if it can ever do A2A refuel. And all the rumours of gun firing causing excess airframe vibrations which can prove dangerous in air. Apart from these things the requirements for FOC are met.
> 
> IAF will need to downgrade to a 12.7mm gun and drop idea of A2A refuel.
> 
> I think now it's too late and either Saab or Lockheed will close this topic of discussion any month now.


true. its too late now.


----------



## The_Sidewinder

Dark Lord Forever said:


> lol. filthy hindoo baniya. so you tell and i will shut up. what a joke.


----------



## kṣamā

ranadd said:


> Shut up.





The_Sidewinder said:


>


Please stop replying to this toad. He is systematically destroying every decent thread (like the Aridaman thread..) just ignore him like the eunuchs from trains asking for alms.

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> Do you really think its a copy paste from mig-21s and not aerodynamic
> But the truth is totally different.








no shame in acepting hard truth. tejas is using old mig 21 drop taks. because tejas is mean to replace mig 21.


tejas is big fail junk. it is time we all patriot indians must admit this hard fact.

below is quotes from indian experts calling tejas junk plane.



> An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA programme identified 53 “shortfalls” in the plane.





> In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn’t as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.





> “It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today’s war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges.”



below quote is my favorite.  and poor india wants to compete with JF 17 thunder with this junk plane.



> He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.



http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...on-military/story-4YH1EUbzKhpeKFrxUOz5nK.html


----------



## Dungeness

Guynextdoor2 said:


> He even thinks JF 17 is a competent jet. Let it be dude. *Even china has admitted it is a modern Mig 21*. The nose cone of previous gen being too high on the RCS a conventional cone was strapped on it. They just keep feeding themselves this stuff.




You really have a bad habit of "representing" others. You use China to bad-mouth Pakistan, and you use Pakistan to bad-mouth China somewhere else.


----------



## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> no shame in acepting hard truth. tejas is using old mig 21 drop taks. because tejas is mean to replace mig 21.


If you are not visually impaired than you can find the clear difference between Mig-21's tank and Tejas' old drop tank and there is no similarity in design with Mig's drop tank except the name "Drop Tank" 




Final Drop Tank is more aerodynamically stable than older one.

But you can compare Mig-21's drop tank with chinese FC-1's Drop tanks. enjoy....





The below pic of LCA has drop tanks which has no pointing edges neither at front end nor at back end of tank. Now you should consult a Doc and have some eye checkups & surgery if required






Dark Lord Forever said:


> tejas is big fail junk. it is time we all patriot indians must admit this hard fact.


LCA is not a scrap of jink. There is already another jet is available with patent as "*JUNK'*
and we know your patriotism as false flagger.
I already tracked your IP but i don't know why PDF admins are ignoring you. may be because of biased nature ever..


Dark Lord Forever said:


> below quote is my favorite.  and poor india wants to compete with JF 17 thunder with this junk plane.


Do you ever heard about SOP-18. But it doen't meaningful to mentally dump mates.
I don't have any reservations if you loves a junk which even can't fire LGB, it cannon, can't use its IFR ever , but still available in air even after consecutive Crashes.
Most important comparing an 4th gen jet with 3rd gen jet. Its Pathetic...


Anyway, I think I was wasting my time with a mentally blind person.
Requesting Admins to show their unbiased decision making strength.

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> If you are not visually impairen than you can find the clear difference between Mig-21's tank and Tejas' old drop tank and there is no similarity in design with Mig's drop tank except the name "Drop Tank"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Final Drop Tank is more aerodynamically stable than older one.
> 
> But you can compare Mig-21's drop tank with chinese FC-1's Drop tanks. enjoy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The below pic of LCA has drop tanks which has no pointing edges neither at front end nor at back end of tank. Now you should consult a Doc and have some eye checkups & surgery if required
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LCA is not a scrap of jink. There is already another jet is available with patent as "*JUNK'*
> and we know your patriotism as false flagger.
> I already tracked your IP but i don't know why PDF admins are ignoring you. may be because of biased nature ever..
> 
> Do you ever heard about SOP-18. But it doen't meaningful to mentally dump mates.
> I don't have any reservations if you loves a junk which even can't fire LGB, it cannon, can't use its IFR ever , but still available in air even after consecutive Crashes.
> Most important comparing an 4th gen jet with 3rd gen jet. Its Pathetic...
> 
> 
> Anyway, I think I was wasting my time with a mentally blind person.
> Requesting Admins to show their unbiased decision making strength.


what how you knot see it???????? tejas is having same drop tank as mig 21. it is pointy design. that last photo you put was from below angle but from side it is same as mig 21's drop tank.

chinese have own indegenous drop tank so not using mig's tanks unlike india who is recycling old mig 21 tanks.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> ? tejas is having same drop tank as mig 21.



 








Dark Lord Forever said:


> t is pointy design.



reminds me of this...

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## Dark Lord Forever

gslv mk3 said:


>


we are talking about 450 lt mig 21 tanks fited inside tejas. not big tanks.

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## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> we are talking about 450 lt mig 21 tanks fited inside tejas. not big tanks.



Really ? What was your claim ?

_''chinese have own indegenous drop tank unlike india''_

So what do you say now ?

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## Dark Lord Forever

gslv mk3 said:


> Really ? What was your claim ?
> 
> _''chinese have own indegenous drop tank unlike india''_
> 
> So what do you say now ?


i am 100% stand true on my truth. 

china has indegenous tanks. india buys tanks from russia and other contrys. india is also using old tanks from mig 21 in tejas. so nothing wrong in this. old things must not go to waste. india is poor can't do same as china.

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## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> india buys tanks from russia and other contrys.



And where are the drop tanks I posted come from dumbass ? North Korea ? 



Dark Lord Forever said:


> india is also using old tanks from mig 21 in tejas.



Mig 21 tanks aren't used on Tejas. That BS.


----------



## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> we are talking about 450 lt mig 21 tanks fited inside tejas. not big tanks.


This may help you a lot. It is the smallest tank available with Tejas at the final stage.






By the way china is still integrating old Mig era design with it jets, either they are big one or small one..

1. FC-1





2. J-10 (still using Soviet Era design)





3. J-20 






4. Chengdu F-7 ( for coparision purposes only)






5. Mirage 3 ( still soviet era design)





6. PAF F-16






*so, finally I have to say that the design is solely depend on the fighter jet. Aerodynamic structure of Drop tank and CFT is finalized only after studying the CFD results with intended Fuel tanks. *

*Use your brain and stop trolling. Also I request you to show you actual national flag ( I know you are ashamed of your country that is why you are using Indian flag)*

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> This may help you a lot. It is the smallest tank available with Tejas at the final stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way china is still integrating old Mig era design with it jets, either they are big one or small one..
> 
> 1. FC-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. J-10 (still using Soviet Era design)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. J-20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Chengdu F-7 ( for coparision purposes only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Mirage 3 ( still soviet era design)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. PAF F-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *so, finally I have to say that the design is solely depend on the fighter jet. Aerodynamic structure of Drop tank and CFT is finalized only after studying the CFD results with intended Fuel tanks. *
> 
> *Use your brain and stop trolling. Also I request you to show you actual national flag ( I know you are ashamed of your country that is why you are using Indian flag)*


no tejas also uses old mig 21 tanks here i have pohtos.

mig 21






tejas








gslv mk3 said:


> And where are the drop tanks I posted come from


russia france uk

most plan sellers also sell drop tanks with plans in pakag deal.



gslv mk3 said:


> Mig 21 tanks aren't used on Tejas. That BS.


photo eveidence tells it is hapening.


----------



## GuardianRED

Dark Lord Forever said:


> no tejas also uses old mig 21 tanks here i have pohtos.
> 
> mig 21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tejas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> russia france uk
> 
> most plan sellers also sell drop tanks with plans in pakag deal.
> 
> 
> photo eveidence tells it is hapening.




What can you expect from an expart who say Kilo and arihant are the same!!

Hey 'not my pal'! Which dreamland are you in.... The Drop tanks are not the same design , size and even colour!!! ... now you are sad and pathetic!

what the heck is 'Pakag Deal'???

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## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> russia france uk



Testing & manufacturing drop tanks in 'russia france uk'. Don't you see two white guys working on it ? 








Dark Lord Forever said:


> no tejas also uses old mig 21 tanks here i have pohtos.



Those are same tanks ?

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## Dark Lord Forever

gslv mk3 said:


> Testing & manufacturing drop tanks in 'russia france uk'. Don't you see two white guys working on it ?


what is your point? i never say india not making drop tanks. only some tejas plan use old mig 21 tanks. because it is cheap.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> only some tejas plan use old mig 21 tanks.



Where is Mig 21 drop tanks ? I don't see.


----------



## Dark Lord Forever

GuardianRED said:


> What can you expect from an expart who say Kilo and arihant are the same!!
> 
> Hey 'not my pal'! Which dreamland are you in.... The Drop tanks are not the same design , size and even colour!!! ... now you are sad and pathetic!
> 
> what the heck is 'Pakag Deal'???


difrent camera angle make it look difrent.

here see below from difrent angle.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> i never say india not making drop tanks.



Are you insane ?



Dark Lord Forever said:


> chinese have own indegenous drop tank so not using mig's tanks unlike india who is recycling old mig 21 tanks.





Dark Lord Forever said:


> china has indegenous tanks. india buys tanks from russia and other contrys.

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## GuardianRED

Dark Lord Forever said:


> difrent camera angle make it look difrent.
> 
> here see below from difrent angle.




Again different design, size and even colour!


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## Dark Lord Forever

@gslv mk3 
i satnd 100% coract. 

china is 100% indegenus but india is 80% buying from forain and 20% making at home.

now you show me photo of 20% home making so i said yes but 80% coming from forain.


----------



## Viny

X_Killer said:


> are you a *DHAKKAN*?
> consult an eye specialist if your country have some otherwise apply for Indian Medical Visa...
> 
> Get Well Soon....




I guess he is phati hui topi ..
The design of drop tanks are more or less similar for many planes.
Its there size and frame connectors that differs majorly. So if he saw a drop tank on mig 21 and then saw a drop tank on tejas, then like papu logic he comes up tejas uses mig 21 drop tank, without even thinking that they both have huge difference in frame size and connectors. Mig 21 is second generation and tejas is 4+ the entire method how drop tank connects and disconnects is different, how fuel lines are connected is different. Still since they look same from distance, it means india uses mig 21 drop tanks on tejas.

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## gslv mk3

Dark Lord Forever said:


> china is 100% indegenus but india is 80% buying from forain and 20% making at home.



No dear, you claimed this in context of drop tanks. Pulling imaginary figures outta your rear wouldn't help you.

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> consult an eye specialist if your country have some otherwise apply for Indian Medical Visa...








now tell me who needs eye check up??? do you not see what i see?? or you too proud to see hard truth???



Viny said:


> I guess he is phati hui topi .. Still since they look same from distance, it means india uses mig 21 drop tanks on tejas.


you must not know about drop tanks. hear let me teach. drop tanks of same liters are changable. you can easily take mig tank and put it in f-16 nothing will hapen. all the same. but it must be very similar and liters should be same. otherwise balance issue will happen. many contris do this. they use change tanks betwen planes all time. no big deal.



gslv mk3 said:


> No dear, you claimed this in context of drop tanks. Pulling imaginary figures outta your rear wouldn't help you.


are you telling indian mixed pickle airforce don't buy plans in pakage deal??? do you know with plane also simulator, drop tanks, weapons all come too. price includs everything.



GuardianRED said:


> Again different design, size and even colour!



ofcorce they repaint it. size is diferent because liter size.



truth hurts. burn in jelosy


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## dreamer4eva

@GuardianRED, @gslv mk3, @X_Killer, gents, word of advice, don't go to someone else's level and get beaten with experience. Sometimes silence say more than thousands of words can describe. Let it go...

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## The_Sidewinder

Dark Lord Forever said:


> @gslv mk3
> i satnd 100% coract.
> 
> china is 100% indegenus but india is 80% buying from forain and 20% making at home.
> 
> now you show me photo of 20% home making so i said yes but 80% coming from forain.



@WebMaster @Horus
Why you are letting this clown to destrot each & every thread with his genius output??

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## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> now telfr who needs eye check up??? do you not see what i see?? or you too proud to see hard truth???
> 
> 
> you must not know about drop tanks. hear let me teach. drop tanks of same liters are changable. you can easily take mig tank and put it in f-16 nothing will hapen. all the same. but it must be very similar and liters should be same. otherwise balance issue will happen. many contris do this. they use change tanks betwen planes all time. no big deal.
> 
> 
> are you telling indian mixed pickle airforce don't buy plans in pakage deal??? do you know with plane also simulator, drop tanks, weapons all come too. price includs everything.
> 
> 
> 
> ofcorce they repaint it. size is diferent because liter size.
> 
> 
> 
> truth hurts. burn in jelosy


Buddy , you are living in the pass that is why you're sharing pics of nearly 2003-04.
Also, these drop tanks (in the pic shared by you) are also not similar to Mig-21s drop tanks. Hence, I again request you to consult a eye specialist if your country have some otherwise you may apply for Indian medical visa. Choice is yours....

The LCA's drop tanks are vastly modified in 2012 and now have more stable & more aerodynamic design.

Good Day



Dark Lord Forever said:


> i see typical indian whining. in indian forms do you know how pakitanis are treated????
> 
> if some pakistani goes to indian form he is trolled and banned. now indians want to silance people on pakistani form too.
> 
> do indian people not having any shame? always crying? indians go to al jazeers, bbc, cnn and cry about bias news. now crying here too? what a shame.


@The Eagle 
It's the time to show your efforts as an Administrator.

There are too many complaints for this guy but still you guys didn't take any action against this false flagger. Check out his IP to track his original nationality....

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## The_Sidewinder

Dark Lord Forever said:


> i see typical indian whining. in indian forms do you know how pakitanis are treated????
> 
> if some pakistani goes to indian form he is trolled and banned. now indians want to silance people on pakistani form too.
> 
> do indian people not having any shame? always crying? indians go to al jazeers, bbc, cnn and cry about bias news. now crying here too? what a shame.


@Irfan Baloch
For your kind information and necessary action Sir

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## Viny

Dark Lord Forever said:


> you must not know about drop tanks. hear let me teach. drop tanks of same liters are changable. you can easily take mig tank and put it in f-16 nothing will hapen. all the same. but it must be very similar and liters should be same. otherwise balance issue will happen. many contris do this. they use change tanks betwen planes all time. no big deal.



Sorry my mistake, I didnt knew you can put tractor tires in SUV and SUV tires in sedan, its just they must be very similar in engine power otherwise speed issue will happen.

I guess you are right, probably many countries that you visited does this...

Finally ....

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## X_Killer

> He said "*45 Squadron has five aircraft and by the end of this year it will have 11*. HAL is investing Rs 1,200 crore to enhance capacity of LCA production from eight per year to 16." "In addition we have adopted a concept of contracting higher modules of the aircraft to the Indian Industry. *If the industry starts delivering these modules like front fuselage, center fuselage and rear fuselage, it adds to the capacity of HAL of 16 aeroplanes per year, plus 8 so that we could deliver 24 LCA aircraft per year to the Indian Air Force*," he added.





> Raju also said HAL is parallely working on other variants along with Aeronautical Development Agency and particular developments that are required by the customer- ease of maintenance modifications- refuelling probe and AESA radars.
> 
> "We are working on it... in the next 18 to 24 months we will be able to demonstrate to our customer on LCA and the product would be delivered in numbers," he added.



http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-orderbook-of-rs-41000-crore-very-low-for-aeronautical-industry/articleshow/60440303.cms

HAL chief claims that *HAL will produce 6 more LCAs by end of 2017* and it will be a great news (if achieved).

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## aman_rai0007

X_Killer said:


> HAL chief claims that *HAL will produce 6 more LCAs by end of 2017* and it will be a great news (if achieved).


Maybe possible... As sp5 should be almost ready for 1st flight...

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## Laozi

"45 Squadron has five aircraft and by the end of this year it will have 11. HAL is investing Rs 1,200 crore to *enhance capacity of LCA production from eight per year to 16*." "In addition we have adopted a concept of contracting higher modules of the aircraft to the Indian Industry. If the industry starts delivering these modules like front fuselage, center fuselage and rear fuselage, it adds to the capacity of HAL of 16 aeroplanes per year, *plus 8 so that we could deliver 24 LCA aircraft per year"

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...eronautical-industry/articleshow/60440303.cms*

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-orderbook-of-rs-41000-crore-very-low-for-aeronautical-industry/articleshow/60440303.cms
> 
> HAL chief claims that *HAL will produce 6 more LCAs by end of 2017* and it will be a great news (if achieved).


there are only now 4 month in 2017. so they will make 1.2 lca in 1 month? this number is not true. so it looks like india will make 2 more lca in 2017. lca 5 and lca 6 so total 6 lca.



Viny said:


> Sorry my mistake, I didnt knew you can put tractor tires in SUV and SUV tires in sedan, its just they must be very similar in engine power otherwise speed issue will happen.


drop tanks and tires are diferant.


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## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> there are only now 4 month in 2017. so they will make 1.2 lca in 1 month? this number is not true. so it looks like india will make 2 more lca in 2017. lca 5 and lca 6 so total 6 lca.


sp-5 is almost ready for take-off from Kiran hanger i.e 2nd production line whereas other are from main production line.
5 LCAs are minimum number you may also get about 6-7 units by year end if work is little bit throttled up.



*We're Indians and we are big hearted peoples but please don't force us to give befitted responses...*

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> sp-5 is almost ready for take-off from Kiran hanger i.e 2nd production line whereas other are from main production line.
> 5 LCAs are minimum number you may also get about 6-7 units by year end if work is little bit throttled up.


so you agree. india will make 2 lca in 4 months. so total 6 units. so i stand 100% corect.




X_Killer said:


> *We're Indians and we are big hearted peoples*


very big heart ok. so why outing rohingya muslims? where is big heart?


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## aman_rai0007

Dark Lord Forever said:


> so you agree. india will make 2 lca in 4 months. so total 6 units. so i stand 100% corect.
> 
> 
> 
> very big heart ok. so why outing rohingya muslims? where is big heart?


Not 6 but 8-9lca will be a realistic number...


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## Dark Lord Forever

aman_rai0007 said:


> Not 6 but 8-9lca will be a realistic number...


you are posting big number. do you have sorce? 

now in my knowlege they are only making 20 lca mk1. and this number is final untill mk1a. this will happen in 2021. so 5 years of production. so number must be 4 lca in 1 year. hal alrady make 2 lca this year. so they will make 2 more. so 4 lca this year. but total number is 6 lca. because 4 already made.


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## Khatri_pune

Dark Lord Forever said:


> you are posting big number. do you have sorce?
> 
> now in my knowlege they are only making 20 lca mk1. and this number is final untill mk1a. this will happen in 2021. so 5 years of production. so number must be 4 lca in 1 year. hal alrady make 2 lca this year. so they will make 2 more. so 4 lca this year. but total number is 6 lca. because 4 already made.



Wrong.... 40 LCA Mk1 standard.... 20 IOC standard & 20 FOC standard.... then 83 MK1A standard. 
MK1A will start induction by 2020...


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## ziaulislam

X_Killer said:


> sp-5 is almost ready for take-off from Kiran hanger i.e 2nd production line whereas other are from main production line.
> 5 LCAs are minimum number you may also get about 6-7 units by year end if work is little bit throttled up.
> 
> 
> 
> *We're Indians and we are big hearted peoples but please don't force us to give befitted responses...*


So how many total LCA by end of the year, ? 16?

Yes, Indians are big hearted, they helped Bhutan against china, srilanka, supporting Baluchistan indepedence(whicg india neither has boarder, ethnic,language or any commonality in anyway) which involves blowing common people and helped bangaldesh get independence frim Pakistan by attacking pakistan outnumbering 70,000 troops them 1:8. 

May be its changed right now, as india doesnt support the roh in Myanmar (while supporting all other movements) 

At least this lead Pakistan to feel wrongly insecure as india as no wrong feeling for Pakistan when they support Baluchistan movement or when they support Afghanistan claim to half of Pakistan
Anyway this lead to Pakistan wrongly procuring nuclear weapons.


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## X_Killer

X_Killer said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-orderbook-of-rs-41000-crore-very-low-for-aeronautical-industry/articleshow/60440303.cms
> 
> HAL chief claims that *HAL will produce 6 more LCAs by end of 2017* and it will be a great news (if achieved).


who edit my post in such an unprofessional manner.




ziaulislam said:


> how many total LCA by end of the year, ? 16?



Don't you have enough knowledge to do additions? anyway I can understand your problem as you didn't get adequate education.

Anyways Total become 11 ( in sure conditions)

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## X_Killer

Good news for LCA Tejas FANS 3-4 sqdns (60-80) more will be ordered once LCA MK1-A production starts. Cross posting from IDF PARIKRAMA

" IAF and MOD discussed for LCA MK1A

MOD also made categorically clear that post MK1A 1 squadron handover, a fresh order of 3-4 more squadrons ( 60-80) will be placed as well.
IAF has clearly said they look at Kaveri with Safran core for maximum LCAs and wants to pursue it further
Further MOD/GOI and IAF both have been soft on HAL in last 3 years and now want to see if HAL can deliver the present new promises.
The new milestones/reviews /priority points are
Achieving FOC soon.
Showing good progress on MK1A project.
Increasing the production speed. to 16/year and further ensuring local ecosystem in place for 24/year rate achievement
Addressing issues in the presently delivered aircrafts and rectifying the mistakes.
Changing the way issues raised has been addressed in the past with more professional approach and time-bound SLAs adherence "

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## X_Killer

More Updates:

_1. The supersonic tanks and the 800 ltr tanks are coming up for various tests by the end of the year before actual flight testing.
2. The lowest speed for LCA Mk1 is below the 120 knots that has been put up on that chart. They are regularly flying below that number now. Don't ask further, won't tell. 
3. The AUW for the LCA AF Mk2 in that chart is approximately correct.
4. The climb rate of LCA is wrong. Don't ask further, won't tell.
5. The (unrefueled) ferry range is currently not 3000 kms, but they are going to plumb the midboard pylons as well. You are speaking of 4000 ltrs of extra fuel. At that point 3000 kms will be.
6. Note the maximum payload of Mk1. It is not exactly 4000 kg, but pretty close.
7. The uninstalled thrust on Mk1, Mk2 and the Gripen are all wrong. 
8. Mk2 is going to +9G capable._

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## The_Sidewinder

X_Killer said:


> More Updates:
> 
> _1. The supersonic tanks and the 800 ltr tanks are coming up for various tests by the end of the year before actual flight testing.
> 2. The lowest speed for LCA Mk1 is below the 120 knots that has been put up on that chart. They are regularly flying below that number now. Don't ask further, won't tell.
> 3. The AUW for the LCA AF Mk2 in that chart is approximately correct.
> 4. The climb rate of LCA is wrong. Don't ask further, won't tell.
> 5. The (unrefueled) ferry range is currently not 3000 kms, but they are going to plumb the midboard pylons as well. You are speaking of 4000 ltrs of extra fuel. At that point 3000 kms will be.
> 6. Note the maximum payload of Mk1. It is not exactly 4000 kg, but pretty close.
> 7. The uninstalled thrust on Mk1, Mk2 and the Gripen are all wrong.
> 8. Mk2 is going to +9G capable._



Future looking good

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## The Eagle

X_Killer said:


> @The Eagle
> It's the time to show your efforts as an Administrator.
> 
> There are too many complaints for this guy but still you guys didn't take any action against this false flagger. Check out his IP to track his original nationality....



Use report button in such cases without quoting back and move-on. Either a false flag or not, Admin will look into the matter but on first hand, it is necessary to report. 

Note to all: No off-topic, self satisfying or irrelevant posts are allowed hence, stay on topic and continue.

Regards,


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## X_Killer

The Eagle said:


> Use report button in such cases without quoting back and move-on. Either a false flag or not, Admin will look into the matter but on first hand, it is necessary to report.
> 
> Note to all: No off-topic, self satisfying or irrelevant posts are allowed hence, stay on topic and continue.
> 
> Regards,


Bro, I reported this guys for more than 10 times but still he is free to troll under PDF hospitality.
Please stick with your mentioned "*NOTE"* and cleanup the shit littered by that false flagger.
Also edit my last post to its ORIGINAL form because that is an official information, as one of your team-mate modify it as being a Troll.
Remove "and it will be a great news (if achieved)." from my post *#3035.*


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## The Eagle

X_Killer said:


> Also edit my last post to its ORIGINAL form because that is an official information, as one of your team-mate modify it as being a Troll.



No editing found for undermentioned post. 



X_Killer said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-orderbook-of-rs-41000-crore-very-low-for-aeronautical-industry/articleshow/60440303.cms
> 
> HAL chief claims that *HAL will produce 6 more LCAs by end of 2017* and it will be a great news (if achieved).


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## #hydra#

X_Killer said:


> More Updates:
> 
> _1. The supersonic tanks and the 800 ltr tanks are coming up for various tests by the end of the year before actual flight testing.
> 2. The lowest speed for LCA Mk1 is below the 120 knots that has been put up on that chart. They are regularly flying below that number now. Don't ask further, won't tell.
> 3. The AUW for the LCA AF Mk2 in that chart is approximately correct.
> 4. The climb rate of LCA is wrong. Don't ask further, won't tell.
> 5. The (unrefueled) ferry range is currently not 3000 kms, but they are going to plumb the midboard pylons as well. You are speaking of 4000 ltrs of extra fuel. At that point 3000 kms will be.
> 6. Note the maximum payload of Mk1. It is not exactly 4000 kg, but pretty close.
> 7. The uninstalled thrust on Mk1, Mk2 and the Gripen are all wrong.
> 8. Mk2 is going to +9G capable._


Are we really going for mk2 Tejas


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## kmc_chacko

#hydra# said:


> Are we really going for mk2 Tejas



Sorry bro, no more reasons for assumptions and illusions.



The_Sidewinder said:


> Future looking good



few new modules under testing and few in the draw boards, its matter of time for connecting missing dots.

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## X_Killer

Hi to all,

I would like to share *short and duly confirmed update*:
1. There will be more LCAs for IAF (as speculated earlier) and the *Total may cross the line of 200 units*.
2. There will be another SE jet, it may either F-16 or Gripen. MoD favors F-16 whereas IAF shows its interest in Gripen. selection will be confirmed soon.
3. More Rafales will be there for sure and the number may cross 150..
4. FGFA is still supported by MoD but no support from IAF (as of now)
5. LCA Mk2 seems to be in Bog which leads to the delay in the project and if it continues project maybe crushed. ( more updates later)
6. For AMCA, The project will not see an significant push until or unless developers test the stealth on 1:1 (full scale) model which is final stages of fabrication.
7. IAF despirately want Safran modified Kaveri Engine on all LCAs.






#hydra# said:


> Are we really going for mk2 Tejas





The Eagle said:


> No editing found for undermentioned post.


The post was moderated by one of your mate and he/she added "and it will be a great news (if achieved)." which is shameless moderation.
post: #3035

along with this, my 2 posts are deleted but the false flaggers' insulting and troll posts are still there.
I do not have any issue with you guys but Admin team have to be non-biased in nature.

proof:






Back to the Topic:

Those who would love to know the history of LCA Tejas from the beginning than they should have to watch the video.





Later Updates are continuously shared here...

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## The Eagle

X_Killer said:


> The post was moderated by one of your mate and he/she added "and it will be a great news (if achieved)." which is shameless moderation.
> post: #3035
> 
> along with this, my 2 posts are deleted but the false flaggers' insulting and troll posts are still there.
> I do not have any issue with you guys but Admin team have to be non-biased in nature.




First of all, you need to be very ethical as well as respectful while quoting anyone as well as the Admin. So let me repeat again, the post is not edited by any Staff Member/Admin but your own words so do not put your own doing upon others. No such editing found at all but if you want it to be edited just simply ask though, unnecessary blame wouldn't help. No Mod or Admin has such extra time for these kind of unwanted, wasting, worthless activities. 







Also, if you have issues, GHQ is the place to discuss as such. Posts are being deleted based upon its worth. Having issues with any other member, such posts or member will be treated as per rules and not as per personal wishlist. Report any post or member that violates Forum Rules. Hopefully, the topic in hand will be continued from now-on.

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## X_Killer

The Eagle said:


> First of all, you need to be very ethical as well as respectful while quoting anyone as well as the Admin. So let me repeat again, the post is not edited by any Staff Member/Admin but your own words so do not put your own doing upon others. No such editing found at all but if you want it to be edited just simply ask though, unnecessary blame wouldn't help. No Mod or Admin has such extra time for these kind of unwanted, wasting, worthless activities.
> 
> View attachment 425300
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you have issues, GHQ is the place to discuss as such. Posts are being deleted based upon its worth. Having issues with any other member, such posts or member will be treated as per rules and not as per personal wishlist. Report any post or member that violates Forum Rules. Hopefully, the topic in hand will be continued from now-on.


All the case is elaborated by me almost 3 times but still you're unable to understand. There might to some technical issues that is why it is not showing moderation note.
And for the false flagger, personally I reported him for more than 10 times, you may check report history(if you have such level access).
Rest all I clearly experienced biased moderation many times and it is still repeated.
If admin team can't follow their own set of rules than I have no issues.

No need to reply to this post , if you have no valid response.

Good Day


----------



## kṣamā

X_Killer said:


> All the case is elaborated by me almost 3 times but still you're unable to understand. There might to some technical issues that is why it is not showing moderation note.
> And for the false flagger, personally I reported him for more than 10 times, you may check report history(if you have such level access).
> Rest all I clearly experienced biased moderation many times and it is still repeated.
> If admin team can't follow their own set of rules than I have no issues.
> 
> No need to reply to this post , if you have no valid response.
> 
> Good Day


So naive...

OnTopic: What's your source of information?


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## The Eagle

X_Killer said:


> All the case is elaborated by me almost 3 times but still you're unable to understand. There might to some technical issues that is why it is not showing moderation note.



Every issue is checked accordingly and there is no such editing except it is your own post. 
Reporting a false flagger is like you have done your part so much appreciated. Admin will look into as such.

No further off-topic post.


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## sudhir007

__ https://www.facebook.com/






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/910454020195700738

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## GuardianRED



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## Papa Dragon

sudhir007 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/910454020195700738


Do you have any news if the Astra will be integrated on the Tejas?


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## Skull and Bones

Papa Dragon said:


> Do you have any news if the Astra will be integrated on the Tejas?



Yes, integration of Astra in Mig-29s, Mirages and Tejas will be done by next year.

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## sudhir007

Full detail of LCA good to read

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/lca-tejas-lethal-compact-agile-part-1


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## Hindustani78

Vice President's Secretariat27-September, 2017 19:33 IST
Ultimate aim of all research and development in science & technology is to make life better for common man: Vice President 

Interacts with Faculty and Students of Indian Institute of Science 


The Vice President of India, Shri M. Venkaiah Naidu has said that the ultimate aim of all research and development in science & technology is to make life better for the common man and to create a peaceful, prosperous planet. He was addressing the gathering at an event to interact with the Faculty and Students of Indian Institute of Science (IISc), in Bengaluru, Karnataka, toady. He has also visited the Centre for Nano Science Engineering at the Indian Institute of Science. The Governor of Karnataka, Shri Vajubhai Rudabhai Vala, the Home Minister of Karnataka, Shri R. Ramalinga Reddy and other dignitaries were present on the occasion.


The Vice President said that he was hugely impressed by the state-of-the-art facilities and the high quality research being carried out at the Centre. He complimented IISc for delivering highly sophisticated micro-electro-mechanical systems (MEMS) pressure transducers to DRDO for use in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This Institute was founded in 1909 as a result of the joint efforts of Jamsetji Nussarwanji Tata, the Government of India and the Maharaja of Mysore, he added.


The Vice President said that over the last century, many illustrious legendary scientists like Sir C.V Raman and Dr. C.N.R. Rao have shaped this institute. Excellence has been the hallmark and innovation the all pervading spirit of this great institution and we must preserve this grand tradition, he added.


The Vice President said that ancient India has had a long tradition of scientific inquiry and a number of achievements too numerous to enumerate. From green revolution to making India a leading power in space technology, Indian scientists have shown that they can rise to the occasion not only to feed the growing population, but also harness state-of-the-art technology for socio-economic development, he added.


Following is the Text of Vice President's address:


"I am indeed extremely delighted to be with you all at this internationally renowned, prestigious centre of scientific research that all Indians should be legitimately proud of.

Just now, I went around the Centre for Nano Science and Engineering. I am hugely impressed by the state-of-the-art facilities and the high quality research being carried out at the Centre. I would like to compliment IISc for delivering highly sophisticated micro-electro-mechanical systems (MEMS) pressure transducers to DRDO for use in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

I am told that IISc is also collaborating with top industries on various projects. Such partnerships will definitely help in providing a thrust to Research and Development(R & D) activities in the country.

In fact, I recall that partnership is at the heart of IISc’s origin and its later functioning. The Indian Institute of Science was founded in 1909 as a result of the joint efforts of Jamsetji Nussarwanji Tata, the Government of India and the Maharaja of Mysore. 

In addition to the *principle of partnership* about which I shall dwell upon a little later, there are two other underlying principles I would like to emphasize. They are promoting a *culture of excellence* and nurturing a *culture of innovation.*

Over the last century, many illustrious legendary scientists like Sir C.V Raman and Dr. C.N.R. Rao have shaped this institute. *Excellence* has been the hallmark and innovation the all pervading spirit of this great institution. We must preserve this grand tradition.

I am glad that all of you, as heirs to this legacy. are continuing your efforts to shape this as a well-known centre of excellence.

As you all are aware, ancient India has had a long tradition of scientific inquiry and a number of achievements too numerous to enumerate. We must draw inspiration from this rich heritage and add to this rich repertory of thought and innovation. 

Since Independence many scientific institutions, universities and premier educational institutes like IISc have made significant contribution to India’s growth story.

From green revolution to making India a leading power in space technology, Indian scientists have shown that they can rise to the occasion not only to feed the growing population, but also harness state-of-the-art technology for socio-economic development from agriculture to urban planning, apart from using it for telecommunications, television broadcasting and meteorological services.

All this has been possible because of the quest for excellence, by building on the past and learning from all that the world has to offer us. Innovative scientists have made and continue to make significant contribution in various fields.

The survey released by Springer Nature, India last year mentioned that India ranked second amongst the countries with highest increase in contribution to high-quality scientific research just next to China.

According to the key findings of Global Innovation Index 2017, Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands, USA and UK are world’s most innovative countries, while a group of nations, including India, Kenya and Viet Nam are outperforming their development-level peers.

The Index, co-authored by Cornell University, INSEAD and World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) mentioned that India, 60th globally, is the top-ranked economy in central and southern Asia and has outperformed on innovation relative to its GDP per capita for seven years in a row. India has shown improvements in most areas, including in infrastructure, business sophistication, knowledge and technology and creative outputs.

Innovation plays a key role in driving knowledge-based economy. This is the time for India to capitalize on its demographic advantage as 65 per cent of the population is below 35 years of age. 

Young and budding scientists must be encouraged to come out with out-of-the-box solutions or disruptive technologies that will help in finding solutions to scientific problems and leapfrogging development.

For this to happen, a proper ecosystem has to be created in every scientific institution where excellence should be the touchstone. Directors/ Team Leaders/ Project Leaders should make special efforts in mentoring and handholding talented and bright students and young scientists. Encouragement is key.

We must equip the young minds with the knowledge and skills required to pursue research and make a lasting contribution to the world of scientific knowledge. As the _Upanishadic_ teachers said long ago, “_Saha veeryam karava vahay, tejaswina avadhitamastu_” meaning that the ”Let teachers and the students collaboratively work together to expand the frontiers of knowledge.” This is the culture of excellence we all should aim for. For this to happen, the teachers must strive to access the best thoughts and ideas from all over the globe. They should connect with the best minds and then attempt to be the best of the best in the world. We must think and aim big.

*Innovation *is another key principle I would like to emphasize. In fact, you all as scientists start with that basic question: “Can I foresee something that does not exist today?” You ask difficult questions and seek answers. You are ready to say: “Why not? Why is it not possible?” You must continue with the same passion and enthusiasm in your quest to unravel a new world. The world will be richer because of your imagination, application of your knowledge and skills.

I said, the world will be richer. It will be rich because your discoveries and inventions make the lives of people around you better. The scientific discoveries have been continuously opening up further doors to acquisition of new knowledge and newer inventions. This widening of the knowledge base is happening at a very fast pace. It can happen faster and have a positive impact on human lives if you can keep the spirit of partnership alive. This is the third principle I would like to emphasize.

Increasingly, the knowledge is becoming multi-disciplinary and research and development using these approaches has become absolutely necessary. We need to expand the knowledge networks and enter into partnerships that will accelerate the pace and quality of the outcomes. It is not possible for government to do this alone. We need creative partnership arrangements so that our efforts are useful for the larger humanity. The academic circles, industrial houses and the government must look at the societal challenges and seek answers through collaborations and partnerships. We must build upon the strengths of each partner. There must be a unique synergy in our working. Only then can we move faster with greater confidence.

You all have a bright and challenging future ahead. I am truly impressed by the work being done by each one of you individually as well as collectively. I urge the Government and the private sector to provide you with an environment that can facilitate your efforts. I hope the leadership of the institute will continue to nurture talent, ignite the spark of creativity and innovation and as Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore had said, let us move away from the “dreary desert sands of dead habits” and have our sights set high and unleash the potential within you.

The ultimate aim of all research and development in science & technology is to make life better for the common man and to create a peaceful, prosperous planet.

Jai Hind"

***

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## GORKHALI

Such a blisssssssssss.....4T is just super awesum.

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## Hindustani78

HAL’s CMD T. Suvarna Raju | Photo Credit:  File Photo 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/hal-kickstarts-ipo-process/article19780823.ece

Defence public sector company Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), on Sunday, said it has initiated the process of an initial public offer (IPO) by filing the draft red herrring prospectus (DRHP) with stock market regulator SEBI.

The Government of India has approved the sale of 10% stake in the company, which primarily manufactures fighter, transport planes and helicopters for the Armed Forces.

The DRHP filed on September 29 is to offload ₹36.15 crore share of face value of ₹10 each.

A release quoted HAL CMD T. Suvarna Raju as saying, “This is a major milestone towards listing of the defence PSU, which is slated for partial disinvestment.”

For fiscal 2016-17, the company had a turnover of over ₹17,400 crore and pre-tax profit of nearly ₹3,300 crore.


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## rajiv sharma

Skull and Bones said:


> Yes, integration of Astra in Mig-29s, Mirages and Tejas will be done by next year.


very good news and opportunity for the investors , this will prove to be an excellent long term bet . friends who invest in stock markets must apply for the shares . future is bright for Hindustan aeronautics . apart from Bharat electronics , this will be the second purely defense equipment manufacturer company to be listed on stock exchanges


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## Water Car Engineer

HAL is now only assembling most of the LCA. 1st tier modules are being produced by India's up and coming aerospace private sector. As illustrated.

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## sudhir007



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## Lord Of Gondor

^^
Wow!
This beast will be more than a handful in WVR combat with it's small size.
Another "From the cockpit of LCA" video, enjoy!

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## Hindustani78

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/636391/iaf-start-process-acquire-single.html

Press Trust of India, New Delhi, Oct 5 2017, 20:18 IST




The IAF currently has 33 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42. File Photo

In a major move, the Indian Air Force will start the process this month to acquire a fleet of single engine fighter jets which are expected to significantly enhance its overall strike capability.

Chief of Air Staff B S Dhanoa said having a new fleet of single engine jets was a "priority" for the IAF and the request for information (RFI) for it is likely to be issued "very soon".

Another top official of the IAF told PTI that the RFI, kick starting the acquisition process, will be issued this month.

The fighter jets will be produced jointly by a foreign aircraft maker along with an Indian company under the recently launched strategic partnership model which aims to bring in high-end defence technology to India.


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## #hydra#

Lord Of Gondor said:


> ^^
> Wow!
> This beast will be more than a handful in WVR combat with it's small size.
> Another "From the cockpit of LCA" video, enjoy!


And iAF started purchase process for new single engine aircrafts.


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## Dazzler



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## sudhir007

from the Hindon Air base

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## wiseone2

Private Lobbies Are Trying to Stop Indigenous Defence Production: H Mahadevan
Newsclick speaks to H Mahadevan on the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the LCA project and the motivated campaign to discredit Defence PSUs in order to facilitate privatisation. Mahadevan is the all India Working President of the AITUC and former General Secretary of the HAL Employees’ Association, Bangalore.
H Mahadevan, Subin Dennis

09 Oct 2017



Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a major Defence Public Sector Undertaking, has initiated the process of disinvesting 10% of its shares through an Initial Public Offering (IPO) with the filing of the draft red herring prospectus with market regulator SEBI on 29 September 2017. The Congress-led UPA government had given the nod for the 10% disinvestment of HAL in 2012.

The corporate media has been for long demanding that public sector undertakings (PSUs), including Defence PSUs be sold off. The BJP-led NDA government is pushing ahead with the agenda of defence privatisation, which has been set in motion with the moves to privatise the Bharat Earth Movers Limited and to outsource the production of defence equipment currently manufactured by Ordnance Factories.

Severe, often unfounded, criticism of the PSUs has been part of this attack on the public sector, aimed at facilitating the handing over of public assets to private corporates. The HAL also has been the target of such attacks, with the critics focusing on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project in particular.

Earlier in August, it had been reported that HAL is looking to increase production of the LCA from 8 to 16 platforms per year from 2019-20. Nevertheless, the government has decided to initiate what might be the first step towards the privatisation of the Navaratna company.

*Subin Dennis *from _*Newsclick*_ spoke to *H Mahadevan*, who was the General Secretary of the HAL Employees’ Association, Bangalore for 25 years from 1967-68 onwards regarding the LCA project. Mahadevan has also served as the Convenor of the All India HAL Trade Union Coordination Committee. He is currently the all India Working President of the All India Trade Union Congress (AITUC), and Deputy General Secretary of the World Federation of Trade Unions (WFTU).

*Newsclick: Could you tell us about the development of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)?*

*Mahadevan:* Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) developed Ajeet fighter aircraft under license in the 1970s, in record time. Gnat was developed under license. That shot down sabre jets.

In the late 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, Kiran Basic Jet Trainer was very successfully done. 180 of these were made, and they were the backbone of the Air Force for a long time. It was done in a record time of five years.

Before proceeding further, I want to tell you, there are big lobbies. There is an outright purchase lobby. That lobby, both within the Air Force and the government, doesn’t encourage our own production. It is a very strong lobby.

After late 1970s and 80s when Kiran Basic Jet Trainer was made, direct purchase was made. In about 20 years it performed badly.

Then Kiran variant, Mark II was made. Then they had HF-24 Marut, there were problems regarding the power of engine. But there was no government support for re-engineering. Unfortunately one pilot, one Suri by name, betrayed us at that time. “Give me something that flies”, he said.

Then Suranjan Das flew our aircraft HF-24 Marut very successfully. Suranjan Das was one of the patriotic pilots, a good pilot. We have named a road as Suranjan Das Road. [He died in an accident involving the HF-24 Marut].

There have been several accidents in MiGs also. The blame is always sought to be put on HAL, the local manufacturer.

There are three possibilities [in such cases]. If it is technical error, the responsibility is on HAL. If it is human error, the responsibility would be that of the Air Force. If it is maintenance lapse, that would also be the Air Force’s responsibility. But the Air Force tends to put the blame on HAL. Take the case of MiGs, for example. There were court of enquiries on them. Finally, we found that it was the contaminated oil in the booster that caused the problem. We rectified it thereafter in the MiGs. Before that, there were lots of accidents involving MiGs.

There was also Avro, an aircraft taken from Britain. HAL was blamed for accidents involving this aircraft also. We disagreed with the Air Force, and said it was due to error by the pilot. Finally the voice recorder proved us right. The error was the pilot’s.

I am raising these points, to say that these are some of the past incidents where the manufacturer was sought to be blamed. And the actual fact was otherwise.

Now I’ll come to the LCA.

As I said earlier, there are three lobbies – outright purchase, licensed manufacturing, and indigenous production and development.

The last one, indigenous production, is more difficult and time-consuming. And it requires many coordinated activities. This is to be borne in mind before we proceed further. Now for LCA, the prototype was flown in 2001 January. Design and development normally took seven years. In the world, normally, design and development from basic to prototype flight takes 8 to 10 years.

Sanction was given to DRDO for LCA in 1985. Sanction was not given to HAL, but to DRDO. In 1985, organisation definition was made. It took 3-4 years. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was the programme management organisation. It was felt that the collective wisdom of all the organisations would be better.

HAL was one of the organisations. HAL, National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), all were together, and the programme was assigned to ADA.

Dr. Kota Harinarayana was the chief of the programme. This was the beginning stage.

Integrating all these took time. Design, weight, mock-up, pilot has to come and see, all these took two years. Then systems and evaluations. We had to purchase systems – avionics, hydraulics – these were the systems which had to be purchased. Then, we go to conceptualise the aircraft, the configuration stage. This takes three years until the prototype is developed.

Now we come to the next stage of new technologies, fly-by-wire control systems. That was the latest modern system. Major structural carbon-fibre components were there. All these were new inventions.

Then there is consultancy. One is fly-by wire. Suddenly new models were suggested by the customer. It took five months, which was extended to one year.

Then the testing. Lots of good decisions were taken then. CFT analysis and configuration was done.

Then came the allocation of responsibilities – who has to be assigned what. Management decisions regarding all these things took a long time. Two years were taken for allocation of responsibilities. That is management’s indecision – you know that the coordinating body was already made. Should we retain the integrated team is the question, because the integrated team took a lot of time. That was one. Then comes the Air Force. The customers thrusted their own systems.

Then came foreign exchange problems. There was a lull period of two to two and a half years. The GE (General Electric) engine was to come from the US. The integrated team took time, and ADA – the coordinating body – was not effective. Time and cost management caused a lot of delay. Then, there was the national team under NAL. Eight prototypes were sanctioned. It took 4-5 years. The visualisation was 10-12 years.

Then CFT and fly-by wire control systems, HAL had to do what was decided much later.

After Pokhran – I was telling you about foreign exchange – the door was closed by the US. We had to do it again from scratch.

Technical committee was made under ADA again. It was there already, and raised the question whether we can do it. There’s the wrong decision by the technical committee. Concurrently development of technology was done by HAL. All these things were delayed.

HAL had no option, but to follow this.

The first TD-1 (Technology Demonstration) was done in 2001. Prototype building in 2003-04. Flight test was to be conducted independent of HAL. For this National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) was formed. Each decision took two years.

Design-making, there was the management failure, they were all thinking of theoretical knowledge.

If it is not HAL or ADA, who is responsible, that was the question.

Cost is naturally associated with delay. Every day cost is increasing because of the delay. And nobody is capable of giving answers. LCA, of course, is a successful aircraft of the HAL. HAL is capable of making this one. But all these delays have cost it, starting from the time of the original decision of the 1980s, and then the integrated management, system orders, then there was assignment of responsibilities. All these things have taken time.

Attributing all the delays to HAL’s manufacturing is not correct at all. Now government is going for Rafale.

I don’t know, change of decision... Air Force changes decisions, government also changes decisions.

Now I only would like to say, on the whole there must be creativity at every stage, which was missing. There is only productivity, design and development, we see them from their decision-making.

Air Force wants systems, we make it, and we also redo everything. It’s alright, it’s all required to be done. I am not saying it is not.

Our own manufacturing takes time, but I have the feeling that due to the lobby I mentioned earlier, there is little encouragement for that. Only people like Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru, Krishna Menon, and Indira Gandhi took some strong decisions. Whereas many others were not taking such strong decisions. They want to either go for outright purchase, or licensed manufacturing. It pays them one way, and also satisfies them because they can do it without risk.

*Newsclick: What if LCA was given to HAL alone instead of being given to integrated management?*

*Mahadevan: *If it was given to HAL alone, many things could have happened. They thought integrated management was necessary. HAL, NAL, ADE... and assigned to ADA finally. ADA took a lot of time. There were time and cost management issues. It is alright; we had to purchase systems – avionics, hydraulics etc. I’m only saying that there is a potential capability. But all these things have been delayed.

*Newsclick: You mentioned Rafale. There are media reports which quote the Dassault CEO which say that the original plan was to get HAL to manufacture Rafale, but then apparently they were told that HAL is fully booked; and they had to turn to the Ambanis for manufacturing Rafale aircraft.*

*Mahadevan*: I do not know the present status. But HAL has been doing it (producing fighter aircrafts) and it can do it. Possibly they have been assigned with something else. A helicopter division is going to come now. They have just seen a place: Tumkur in Karnataka, and the helicopter division is going to come. And India has produced a lot of helicopters in the past.

I am only trying to say, this is how the decision-making itself takes a lot of time.

Sometimes a new government comes, sometimes new people come there. Now the present government, with all its wisdom is only thinking of supporting the multinationals. They are not supporting indigenous development. This is a real thing. They may talk about many things. Prime Minister may make many speeches. But Nirmala Sitharaman-ji has to do what she is told to do. Encourage all the private sector as well as the international companies in order to get “quick results”. That’s what they say.

*Newsclick: What would you say regarding the mainstream media campaigning against the Defence PSUs?*

*Mahadevan: *I have seen what the Times group has been saying against Defence PSUs. India Today also has published many things. One whole article against DRDO. Then another one against Ordnance Factories. This is deliberately motivated writing, done in order to undermine or ridicule what we have done all these years. They are trying to say that nothing had been happening. The private lobbies are getting such articles written. The role being played by such media here is not a patriotic one.

_*Disclaimer: *The views expressed here are the authors' personal views, and do not necessarily represent the views of Newsclick._


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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> HAL is now only assembling most of the LCA. 1st tier modules are being produced by India's up and coming aerospace private sector. As illustrated.









First delivery in March 2018

VEM tech

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## RPK



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## Vanamali

kṣamā said:


> Please stop replying to this toad. He is systematically destroying every decent thread (like the Aridaman thread..) just ignore him like the eunuchs from trains asking for alms.


Pls don't insult eunuchs by comparing.

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## #hydra#

RPK said:


>


Wow lca flying with ifr prob .

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## GodToons

The firm said it has successfully completed an initial flight test campaign designed to measure its performance. The tests conducted during mid 2017 at the Cazaux air base in France, on a test bench aircraft, focused on meteorological analyses of the radar performance. 

“These test flights proved that the radar is fully operational and perfectly corresponds to the specific requirements of HAL for its combat and air superiority missions. It is therefore ready and able to adapt to the tight schedule imposed by the Mk1A LCA,” said Thales. 

The radar is designed for air-to-air superiority and strike missions, based on Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar to achieve long detection ranges and multi-target tracking capabilities. The radar also provides simultaneous modes of operation for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operation modes, and weapon deployment, according to Thales. 

“In just four months, thanks to our solid, proven experience with the RBE2, we’ve been able to carry out successful flights to test the performance of the key features of the radar we’re offering for the TEJAS Mk1A light fighter. This is a clear guarantee of its extremely high degree of operational reliability and clearly sets us apart from our competitors as regards this call for tender,” said Philippe Duhamel, Executive Vice-President, Defence Mission Systems activities, Thales. 

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61105130.cms?from=mdr&utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst







https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...rray-radars/articleshow/61105130.cms?from=mdr

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## Sergi

A decent analysis





Does anybody have active contact with @sancho ?????
I know he left the troll forum a year ago. But if by any chance anybody have his contact plz tag mi in


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## -------

*IAF Tells Govt LCA Tejas 'Not Good Enough'*

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## ranadd

Combat-Master said:


> *IAF Tells Govt LCA Tejas 'Not Good Enough'*



IAF Tells Govt LCA Tejas _*alone *_is not good enough

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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-enhanced/article20398063.ece?homepage=true

NEW DELHI, November 13, 2017 22:56 IST
Updated: November 13, 2017 22:57 IST






* IAF had recently told the government that the LCA did not meet its requirements *

In the face of the Air Force raising questions about the capability of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the government is now aiming to install capability enhancements and speed up the rate of production.

“The production of Tejas Mk-1A will begin in 2019. Most of the 43 improvements have already been made and the tender process to install an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Self-Protection Jammer is under way. A refuelling probe would also be added to increase range,” a source said.

While the design cannot be changed and endurance improved as it is powered by the GE-404 engine, the enhancements will increase the capability of the aircraft, the source said. The IAF had told the government that Tejas did not meet its requirements. IAF was in the process of issuing a tender for the procurement of 100 jets through the Strategic partnership mode, for which the contenders were Lockheed F-16 and SAAB Gripen. Lockheed had tied up with Tata group and SAAB with the Adani group to build them locally if selected.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was undertaking the enhancements and was in the process of setting up another assembly line at a cost of ₹130 crore to increase production rate from the present eight to 16. The second line would be ready by 2019 when Mk-1A began production, the source stated.


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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935421077328609280

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935416112002379776


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## sudhir007




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## Papa Dragon

*IAF is happy with Tejas but wants more: Scientists*

Senior scientists of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on Tuesday said IAF isn't unhappy with the performance of Tejas but wants more variety. There were reports a few days ago of IAF brass pushing for imports rather than settling for advanced versions of Tejas.

"The Tejas is a light aircraft that has limitations of carrying capacity and endurance. But it has achieved its role as the best aircraft in its class. It has also successfully fired the latest beyond visual range (BVR) missiles. The IAF wants more variety. All the aircraft in its inventory can't be light. The IAF requires all kinds and that doesn't mean it isn't satisfied with the performance of Tejas," said ADA director Girish S Deodhare.

"The Tejas is a state-of-the-art platform while F-16s are of 1970 vintage. Several countries in West Asia have also expressed interest in in Tejas," another senior official said.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-not-unhappy-with-Tejas-Scientists-454782

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ith-tejas-scientists/articleshow/61842022.cms


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-enhanced/article20398063.ece?homepage=true
> 
> NEW DELHI, November 13, 2017 22:56 IST
> Updated: November 13, 2017 22:57 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * IAF had recently told the government that the LCA did not meet its requirements *
> 
> In the face of the Air Force raising questions about the capability of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the government is now aiming to install capability enhancements and speed up the rate of production.
> 
> “The production of Tejas Mk-1A will begin in 2019. Most of the 43 improvements have already been made and the tender process to install an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Self-Protection Jammer is under way. A refuelling probe would also be added to increase range,” a source said.
> 
> While the design cannot be changed and endurance improved as it is powered by the GE-404 engine, the enhancements will increase the capability of the aircraft, the source said. The IAF had told the government that Tejas did not meet its requirements. IAF was in the process of issuing a tender for the procurement of 100 jets through the Strategic partnership mode, for which the contenders were Lockheed F-16 and SAAB Gripen. Lockheed had tied up with Tata group and SAAB with the Adani group to build them locally if selected.
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was undertaking the enhancements and was in the process of setting up another assembly line at a *cost of ₹130 crore* to increase production rate from the present eight to 16. The second line would be ready by 2019 when Mk-1A began production, the source stated.




Just 130 crore?


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## Hindustani78

sathya said:


> Just 130 crore?




Already second production line assembly unit has begin.


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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/941940720293654528

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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/939464172265336832

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/938758519578181632


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## Papa Dragon

Amidst the ongoing ‘controversy and confusion’ over whether the Indian Air Force (IAF) is keen to go ahead with the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme beyond the first and second blocks of 20 each, the sixth series production variant from the hangars of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) took to the skies for the first time sans any fanfare, recently.

The maiden flight of SP-7, the sixth out of the total 20 to be delivered in the Initial Operational Clearance (ICO) standards, took place on December 12 at the HAL airport here, with zero snags being reported by the pilot after completing the Profile-1 of the flight envelope.

Tejas SP-7 was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugopal (Retd). With this, the IAF No 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) would soon have half-a-dozon of Tejas platforms to operate with. Currently being raised in Bengaluru, the No 45 Squadron will eventually move to Air Force Station Sulur, near Coimbatore.

IAF is ramping up its infrastructure at AFS Sulur with modern hangars being reading to accommodate Tejas 16 fighters and four trainers, part of the first block of delivery from HAL.


SP-5 from Kiran hangar will join the party soon

The fifth Tejas series production platform SP-5, being built at the second production line established at the Aircraft Division by HAL, too will have its maiden flight soon. HAL converted the erstwhile Kiran hangar to set up this additional production line, which boasts of producing three aircraft per year, when fully operational.

V Sridharan, who retired as the Executive Director of LCA Division recently, says that Tejas platforms up to SP-10 are currently under equipping in Final Assembly Hangar.

“Very soon they will be followed by SP-11 and SP-12. Kudos to the entire Team of Tejas involved in the manufacturing activities for their untiring efforts in making this possible despite adverse criticism in the last three years, both in terms of quality and quantity,” says Sridharan.


Frequent modifications a concern

Interestingly, he says that the even after delivering six series production platforms by HAL, the Standard of Preparation (Build to Print Documents) have not been frozen, despite the IOC nod in December 2013.

“The introduction of more than 270 modifications after accordance of IOC, in the name of concurrent engineering is a potential source of introducing uncertainties during the production phase. This can affect time-lines on a regular basis. These changes even warrant design and manufacturing of new parts which results in delays. All these changes are introduced towards envisaged performance and system improvements as per the requirements of IAF,” says Sridharan, who has been credited with establishing the new LCA Division.

He says the LCA Division developed ICY (interchangeability) tools for all 147 panels and for 830 pipelines out of 934 pipelines within the build of first seven SP Tejas aircraft itself.

“This is a huge shift compared to any other projects in HAL, that too at such short span of time after the release of RSD (Release of Service Documents). Even now, only concept of replaceable pipes is existing in other projects. LCA has gone far ahead in the area of ICY compliance through the dedicated efforts of its tooling department,” claims Sridharan.

He says HAL, in an effort to further augment the production capacity, has outsourced all the major structural modules to private partners, including sub-assemblies, role equipment, pipelines, sheet metal part electrical looms and panels.

“This would enhance the production rate to 16 per year from the year 2019 onwards apart from developing an eco-system for manufacturing of a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft in India. This is likely to materialize by mid-2018 and thereafter, HAL would further be able to ramp up the production rate to 20 aircraft-plus every year,” adds Sridharan.

On the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) front, sources at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) say that the programme will complete all tasks mandated within 2018.

“There are only few more crucial test points to be achieved. Then there could be additional requirements. Hopefully, the FOC should be in place in the third quarter of 2018,” says a top scientist.

Currently, Tejas LSP-8 is optimising flight profiles with the in-flight refueling probe (IFR). The air-to-air refueling trials will begin early 2018. Four Tejas variants recently undertook night attack missions for the first time, as per the FOC schedule.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Tejas-platforms-till-SP-12-will-enter-equipping-stage-soon-515156

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-12-will-enter-equipping-stage-soon-1.2464308


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## Water Car Engineer

SP7 joins IAF

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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948388604480446464

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## Sine Nomine

@Water Car Engineer Any chances of CFT's for getting rid of Fuel Tanks?


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## sudhir007

https://theprint.in/2018/01/05/the-...hanging-fruit-and-it-needs-to-be-plucked-now/

*The desi LCA is defence ministry’s low-hanging fruit and it needs to be plucked now*

*A quick turnaround of the Tejas light fighter is on the cards but the government needs to step up.*

It has been loved, hated, coveted, admonished and even ridiculed but for India’s homegrown combat aircraft, right now might just be the right time. The light combat aircraft (LCA) is the defence ministry’s lowest hanging fruit on the ‘Make in India’ path but it needs one final big push for which the government would need to step up soon.

Two things stand in the way of the fighter fully taking off as a potent symbol of the Indian defence industry – a strange interference by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) itself and a painful obsession of the air force to diversify its fleet even further with a new, foreign origin single-engine fighter.

For a development programme that was sanctioned in 1983, the light fighter has come a long way. After limping its way through the 2000s, the single-engine jet has shown promise of late, maybe not as a cutting edge, globally competitive fighter but certainly as a platform that will enhance India’s combat capabilities within the region.

The desi fighter project is also one of the few things that the UPA and BJP governments have had a similar view on — the defence ministry under both regimes, driven by the person at the top, has been generous to overrule objections of the air force to give the Tejas time to mature.

A running battle between the air force, which insisted that the fighter is not good enough, and the defence ministry — batting for a homegrown jet to be accepted — came to head in 2015. Peace was brokered by then defence minister Manohar Parrikar on four simple terms.

That the air force would place orders for five squadrons of the fighter jet provided that four parameters are met — a world-class Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to track targets, a long-range beyond visual range missile, air-to-air refuelling capability to enhance range and modern electronic warfare capability for survivability of the aircraft.
The deal was simple — meet these four requirements and the air force would have no choice but to place orders, giving the jet a fighting chance of proving its combat capability.

While progress has been made at various levels on integrating these four enhancements, DRDO itself, which has been deeply involved in the project, has come as a possible hindrance. Scientists have placed on record strong protests over efforts by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to purchase new radars and electronic warfare systems from the global market. The logic? That these systems can be developed in India if the funds are allocated.

Given the tight timeline in which they need to be integrated and proven on board the Tejas — by 2020 — the best case scenario is to purchase the radars and systems from the global market and replace them subsequently with a homegrown solution when it matures.

However, with DRDO’s objections on record, it would take a strong stand by the defence ministry to do the right thing and honour the deal brokered in 2015. The question to be answered is whether the defence ministry is willing to bite the bullet to get the LCA truly off the ground.

The other challenge for this true ‘Make in India’ programme is the new-found foreign origin single-engine fighter jet obsession of the air force. The air force wants to buy several new fighter jets in the coming years.

The Rafale order has already been placed with a possibility of many more, a fifth generation fighter from Russia is on the cards but to further make up for numbers, the air force has moved a proposal for 118 new fighters — to be assembled in India. By specifying that it only wants jets with a single engine, only two jets in the world meet this requirement — the American F-16 and the Swedish Gripen.

By going with this ‘single engine’ formula, the air force is, in fact, contradicting itself. Years ago, when it started the now infamous Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, it was specified that the capabilities of a fighter would be judged — speed, range, weapon delivery, survivability etc — and not the number of engines it is equipped with. This gave way to the selection of the Eurofigher and Rafale as technically compatible fighters to Indian requirements, rejecting both the F-16 and the Gripen.

The fact is that a third single-engine fighter jet choice is now available for India — an improved, spruced up LCA that will be the precursor to a full range of homegrown combat aircraft.

And this might well be the most viable option.


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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948729780756660224


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## Water Car Engineer

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @Water Car Engineer Any chances of CFT's for getting rid of Fuel Tanks?



Not anytime soon, but ADA is doing frame changes to the Tejas with Mark 2. There's been models shown.


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## Sine Nomine

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not anytime soon, but ADA is doing frame changes to the Tejas with Mark 2. There's been models shown.


That means it's on card,for future Blocks.


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## Water Car Engineer

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> That means it's on card,for future Blocks.



Well, hard to say. Even what's on the cards for mark 2 isnt close to being finalized. CFTs wasnt even mentioned.

They're working on airframe changes to improve it's aerodynamics.















Also navy mark 2, iaf mark 2 will pretty much look similar without levcons.

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## leapx

Water Car Engineer said:


> Well, hard to say. Even what's on the cards for mark 2 isnt close to being finalized. CFTs wasnt even mentioned.
> 
> They're working on airframe changes to improve it's aerodynamics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also navy mark 2, iaf mark 2 will pretty much look similar without levcons.


A navel version, seriously? Tejas has limited range and payload. Putting it on a carrier make things worse.

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## Water Car Engineer

leapx said:


> A navel version, seriously? Tejas has limited range and payload. Putting it on a carrier make things worse.



It's pretty much a tech demo program.


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## AMCA

leapx said:


> A navel version, seriously? Tejas has limited range and payload. Putting it on a carrier make things worse.



Limited Range? In what context?


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## leapx

AMCA said:


> Limited Range? In what context?


any context with following words：Mig-29k，SU-33,J-15,Rafale-M, F18,and possible Gripen-M

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## shootingstar

sudhir007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948729780756660224



So it's been in testing for 17 year now and still has not attained FOC.

Tejas has broken all records.


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## Sine Nomine

Water Car Engineer said:


> Well, hard to say. Even what's on the cards for mark 2 isnt close to being finalized. CFTs wasnt even mentioned.
> 
> They're working on airframe changes to improve it's aerodynamics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also navy mark 2, iaf mark 2 will pretty much look similar without levcons.


Canopy looks like near to Bubble Canopy configuration.

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## AMCA

leapx said:


> any context with following words：Mig-29k，SU-33,J-15,Rafale-M, F18,and possible Gripen-M



And what exactly are those contexts? Please enlighten us !! It would also be interesting to learn how you would be putting together different class of aircraft's for comparison.


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## leapx

AMCA said:


> And what exactly are those contexts? Please enlighten us !! It would also be interesting to learn how you would be putting together different class of aircraft's for comparison.


If your Tejas fanboys still think its is a good idea to develope a carrier-based version, I have nothing to say. Go with it and good luck.

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## AMCA

leapx said:


> If your Tejas fanboys still think its is a good idea to develope a carrier-based version, I have nothing to say. Go with it and good luck.



Its not because of the range that it is a bad idea but because it is under powered for effective carrier operation, which even Indian Navy has made it clear that the Tejas in its Present form is incapable to carry out the job.


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## Han Patriot

AMCA said:


> Its not because of the range that it is a bad idea but because it is under powered for effective carrier operation, which even Indian Navy has made it clear that the Tejas in its Present form is incapable to carry out the job.


Everybody knows LCA is the lightest, fastest, most powderful aircraft on earth since 2012 and some say since 1992. Please don't ever question it.


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## Rajeev_Anand

Han Patriot said:


> Everybody knows LCA is the lightest, fastest, most powderful aircraft on earth since 2012 and some say since 1992. Please don't ever question it.


I like your Punjabi English....

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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950212930255044608

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## Ultima Thule

AMCA said:


> Its not because of the range that it is a bad idea but because it is under powered for effective carrier operation, which even Indian Navy has made it clear that the Tejas in its Present form is incapable to carry out the job.


So its underpowered with current engine F-404IN as per IN, so what is the replacement in mind of HAL/DRDO F-414 just asking not trolling


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## AyanRay

pakistanipower said:


> So its underpowered with current engine F-404IN as per IN, so what is the replacement in mind of HAL/DRDO F-414 just asking not trolling



Even with F-414, TEJAS will be a underpowered carrier based aircraft. I don't think Tejas as a carrier based fighter jet is feasible.


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## Ultima Thule

This thought may be your personal thought With thurst of 22000 lbs IN still think that your Tejas still underpowered and a T/W ratio is 1.3, which is sufficient for your Tejas, range is still an issue for CV version of Tejas and remember Tejas is a light weight jet you can't install F-100/AL-31 class of engine into Tejas or you would



AyanRay said:


> Even with F-414, TEJAS will be a underpowered carrier based aircraft. I don't think Tejas as a carrier based fighter jet is feasible.


With a T/W of 1.3 with F-414 your navy still think that it could be underpowered and remember that Tejas is light weight jet you can't install F-100/AL-31 class of an engine into Tejas it will overpowered your Tejas, may be this is your personal thoughts


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## GURU DUTT

pakistanipower said:


> This thought may be your personal thought With thurst of 22000 lbs IN still think that your Tejas still underpowered and a T/W ratio is 1.3, which is sufficient for your Tejas, range is still an issue for CV version of Tejas and remember Tejas is a light weight jet you can't install F-100/AL-31 class of engine into Tejas or you would
> 
> 
> With a T/W of 1.3 with F-414 your navy still think that it could be underpowered and remember that Tejas is light weight jet you can't install F-100/AL-31 class of an engine into Tejas it will overpowered your Tejas, may be this is your personal thoughts


Tejas is fine for the Job its not for acrobatic team and in the age of all aspect 120 degrees HOBS & +/- 30G WVRs (python5) on LCA/Tejas MK1A there is no need for si high manouvering just a look & there is a LOCK ON on enemy as far as sight enebells over it DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR are fully capable guded by EL-2052 AESA radar ..... now as for navy they just want more funds and two full squads of rafale M for IAC undr construction rest keep speculating  



AyanRay said:


> Even with F-414, TEJAS will be a underpowered carrier based aircraft. I don't think Tejas as a carrier based fighter jet is feasible.


Tejas will never be a Carrier based fighter cause it does not have required LONG LEGS due to its compact size and internal fuel capacity and cant spare too many hard points for fuel pods  

but what most people dont know Tejas has a good range for a costal defnce or a point defnce fighter with 3.5 or lesser weapons load thats 350-450 Km under 5Km to 6Km altitude which will increase in a higher altitude with a lighter air interception type weapons load (2WVRs & 4 BVRs & 1 fuel tank + jammer pod ) to almost 450-500 Km

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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> Tejas is fine for the Job its not for acrobatic team and in the age of all aspect 120 degrees HOBS & +/- 30G WVRs (python5) on LCA/Tejas MK1A there is no need for si high manouvering just a look & there is a LOCK ON on enemy as far as sight enebells over it DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR are fully capable guded by EL-2052 AESA radar ..... now as for navy they just want more funds and two full squads of rafale M for IAC undr construction rest keep speculating
> 
> 
> Tejas will never be a Carrier based fighter cause it does not have required LONG LEGS due to its compact size and internal fuel capacity and cant spare too many hard points for fuel pods
> 
> but what most people dont know Tejas has a good range for a costal defnce or a point defnce fighter with 3.5 or lesser weapons load thats 350-450 Km under 5Km to 6Km altitude which will increase in a higher altitude with a lighter air interception type weapons load (2WVRs & 4 BVRs & 1 fuel tank + jammer pod ) to almost 450-500 Km


Currently Tejas have no AESA (2052) but pulse Doppler 2032 you derbyp/r77 so we we have amraam/SD-10A, so what is your problem I'm talking seriously not trolling so you're predicting that Tejas will be only for airforce not for IN


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## sathya

GURU DUTT said:


> Tejas is fine for the Job its not for acrobatic team and in the age of all aspect 120 degrees HOBS & +/- 30G WVRs (python5) on LCA/Tejas MK1A there is no need for si high manouvering just a look & there is a LOCK ON on enemy as far as sight enebells over it DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR are fully capable guded by EL-2052 AESA radar ..... now as for navy they just want more funds and two full squads of rafale M for IAC undr construction rest keep speculating
> 
> 
> Tejas will never be a Carrier based fighter cause it does not have required LONG LEGS due to its compact size and internal fuel capacity and cant spare too many hard points for fuel pods
> 
> but what most people dont know Tejas has a good range for a costal defnce or a point defnce fighter with 3.5 or lesser weapons load thats 350-450 Km under 5Km to 6Km altitude which will increase in a higher altitude with a lighter air interception type weapons load (2WVRs & 4 BVRs & 1 fuel tank + jammer pod ) to almost 450-500 Km



MK1A is still far off , radar & engine not chosen yet ( thales vs Elta in radar & GE vs Kaveri -Safran )
MK2 for Navy might come up with GE414
derby had vibration issues so Asraam/ Mica may also be chosen
Gun firing is delinked from MK1 Foc , rumour is that gun pod location may be altered to add extra hard point.
MK1 maintenance - is hard job thats getting simplified.
i dont know Sukhoi manufacturing facility is getting converted for LCA, i am of the opinion it will do upgradation of Su 30 mki.. as off now 8 + 3 mk1 per year that is being made.
private players entry will speed up.., how much it is.. needs to be seen.


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## AyanRay

pakistanipower said:


> Currently Tejas have no AESA (2052) but pulse Doppler 2032 you derbyp/r77 so we we have amraam/SD-10A, so what is your problem I'm talking seriously not trolling so you're predicting that Tejas will be only for airforce not for IN



How many single engined carrier based fighter jet do you see around? Operational? Even the F-35 is having issues and it possesses the mother of all jet engines. A single engined small aircraft with limited range is simply not capable to operate from aircraft carriers. If a carrier comes too close to the enemy it losses its purpose.


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## Ultima Thule

AyanRay said:


> How many single engined carrier based fighter jet do you see around? Operational? Even the F-35 is having issues and it possesses the mother of all jet engines. A single engined small aircraft with limited range is simply not capable to operate from aircraft carriers. If a carrier comes too close to the enemy it losses its purpose.


So you're predicting no Tejas for IN


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## AyanRay

pakistanipower said:


> So you're predicting no Tejas for IN



Why only Tejas, no single engined jet for Indian navy.

Edit: Maybe for costal defence, certainly not for carrier based operations.


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## sathya

AyanRay said:


> Why only Tejas, no single engined jet for Indian navy.
> 
> Edit: Maybe for costal defence, certainly not for carrier based operations.



Still a stepping stone for next block of Tejas and also facilitate 
N AMCA

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## Ultima Thule

AyanRay said:


> Why only Tejas, no single engined jet for Indian navy.
> 
> Edit: Maybe for costal defence, certainly not for carrier based operations.[/QUOTE





AyanRay said:


> Why only Tejas, no single engined jet for Indian navy.
> 
> Edit: Maybe for costal defence, certainly not for carrier based operations.


So IN considering to skip CV version of Tejas all along and will go for F-18E/F/RAFALE-N for CV operations, that you're predicting


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## AyanRay

pakistanipower said:


> So IN considering to skip CV version of Tejas all along and will go for F-18E/F/RAFALE-N for CV operations, that you're predicting



Ideally they should. But then I don't take the decisions. Tejas naval variant is just a TD, a test bed for AMCA

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## GURU DUTT

sathya said:


> MK1A is still far off , radar & engine not chosen yet ( thales vs Elta in radar & GE vs Kaveri -Safran )
> MK2 for Navy might come up with GE414
> derby had vibration issues so Asraam/ Mica may also be chosen
> Gun firing is delinked from MK1 Foc , rumour is that gun pod location may be altered to add extra hard point.
> MK1 maintenance - is hard job thats getting simplified.
> i dont know Sukhoi manufacturing facility is getting converted for LCA, i am of the opinion it will do upgradation of Su 30 mki.. as off now 8 + 3 mk1 per year that is being made.
> private players entry will speed up.., how much it is.. needs to be seen.


some corrections needed ASRAAM is a within visual range missile not a BVR and comes in place of Puthon5 which had some issues in older block when figter was in supersonic flieght mode , even Derby with bibration issues had been handelled and rectified as far back as 2015 

now Ge 414 is is the only choice for MK1A as Kaveru is still not ready and will only come after 2022-23 and with just some minor djustments in air intake & fuel divery systems there is a big boost in power and its almost plug & play for GE 414 over GE404 cirrently in MK1 

as for MICA (both variants they are not for LCA but M2K or rafale ) as EL2052 already chosen as thales radar is too expensive and needs all french weapons only on it or at lest MBDA made weapons on it only while as for AL2052 all israeli and US & french made/MBDA made weapons are compatiable on it 

plus there is already new lighter and LOWER & wider landing gear under testing for MK1A and a totally new very compact & unified based on latest technologies a LA Growler type unified RWR+EW+ECM+internal jammer suits based on GaN AESA sensors and a a GaN AESA based version of EL 2052 radar for LCA-MK1A making it even more lighter and more aerodynamic and more agile than before and sir its not a rumor and yes there wont me any MK2 LCA its going to be AMCA next



pakistanipower said:


> So you're predicting no Tejas for IN


there would be no carrier based LCA but for sure there would be land based NLCA on remote islands line andam & nicobar or costal air fields or Point defnce & shore defnce roles



pakistanipower said:


> Currently Tejas have no AESA (2052) but pulse Doppler 2032 you derbyp/r77 so we we have amraam/SD-10A, so what is your problem I'm talking seriously not trolling so you're predicting that Tejas will be only for airforce not for IN


looks like you meed to work on your information 

Tejas right now uses EL/M-2032 MMR(as used of Israeli F16 SUFA) with Python5 WVR & Derby+I DERBY ER BVR combo with DASH3 HMDS& HUD & LITENING3 G3 LDP combo for complete HOBS pakage while your SD10 a, b XYZ are on tech based on Python3 

rest keep speculating yourself as EL2052 is not a pulse doppler but an AESA & has two variants A GaA variant which in currently on indian Jaguars Darin3 while MK1A is getting its GaN version ... rest keep speculating

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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> some corrections needed ASRAAM is a within visual range missile not a BVR and comes in place of Puthon5 which had some issues in older block when figter was in supersonic flieght mode , even Derby with bibration issues had been handelled and rectified as far back as 2015
> 
> now Ge 414 is is the only choice for MK1A as Kaveru is still not ready and will only come after 2022-23 and with just some minor djustments in air intake & fuel divery systems there is a big boost in power and its almost plug & play for GE 414 over GE404 cirrently in MK1
> 
> as for MICA (both variants they are not for LCA but M2K or rafale ) as EL2052 already chosen as thales radar is too expensive and needs all french weapons only on it or at lest MBDA made weapons on it only while as for AL2052 all israeli and US & french made/MBDA made weapons are compatiable on it
> 
> plus there is already new lighter and LOWER & wider landing gear under testing for MK1A and a totally new very compact & unified based on latest technologies a LA Growler type unified RWR+EW+ECM+internal jammer suits based on GaN AESA sensors and a a GaN AESA based version of EL 2052 radar for LCA-MK1A making it even more lighter and more aerodynamic and more agile than before and sir its not a rumor and yes there wont me any MK2 LCA its going to be AMCA next
> 
> 
> there would be no carrier based LCA but for sure there would be land based NLCA on remote islands line andam & nicobar or costal air fields or Point defnce & shore defnce roles
> 
> 
> looks like you meed to work on your information
> 
> Tejas right now uses EL/M-2032 MMR(as used of Israeli F16 SUFA) with Python5 WVR & Derby+I DERBY ER BVR combo with DASH3 HMDS& HUD & LITENING3 G3 LDP combo for complete HOBS pakage while your SD10 a, b XYZ are on tech based on Python3
> 
> rest keep speculating yourself as EL2052 is not a pulse doppler but an AESA & has two variants A GaA variant which in currently on indian Jaguars Darin3 while MK1A is getting its GaN version ... rest keep speculating


 wtf you're talking about its a bvr not short range ir missile partially based on r-77/amraam tech do research before you post kid, I'm just trying to say currently your Tejas uses pulse Doppler 2032 and in future it Will be using 2052 AESA in Mark-1A


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## GURU DUTT

pakistanipower said:


> wtf you're talking about its a bvr not short range ir missile partially based on r-77/amraam tech do research before you post kid, I'm just trying to say currently your Tejas uses pulse Doppler 2032 and in future it Will be using 2052 AESA in Mark-1A


im also saying the same thing wise guy but you are not able to get it 

we are already having EL/M-2032 MMR which is better than radar of F16 BLk52 you have as Israel rejected it for EL/M-2032MMR for its SUFA do you know why and what it is capable of when used in tandem with DASH3 HMDS& HUD & LITENING 3 G 3 Laser designation Pod and PYthon5 WVR & DERBY(80KM RANGE) & I DERBY ER BVR (125 KM range) 

we are already usng Derby & Python5 & EL2052 GaA AESA combo on Jaguars DARIN3 of IAF while GaN version of EL2052 will come on LCA MK1A so whats you celebrating about  :p


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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> im also saying the same thing wise guy but you are not able to get it
> 
> we are already having EL/M-2032 MMR which is better than radar of F16 BLk52 you have as Israel rejected it for EL/M-2032MMR for its SUFA do you know why and what it is capable of when used in tandem with DASH3 HMDS& HUD & LITENING 3 G 3 Laser designation Pod and PYthon5 WVR & DERBY(80KM RANGE) & I DERBY ER BVR (125 KM range)
> 
> we are already usng Derby & Python5 & EL2052 GaA AESA combo on Jaguars DARIN3 of IAF while GaN version of EL2052 will come on LCA MK1A so whats you celebrating about  :p


Your insane i don't want to troll here but, we are not empty hand we have also lots of surprise weapons for you now STFU


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## GURU DUTT

pakistanipower said:


> Your insane i don't want to troll here but, we are not empty hand we have also lots of surprise weapons for you now STFU


good luck with it then


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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> good luck with it then


You're troll kid nothing you know nothing about our airforce as well as your airforce go kid play your toys this place is not for yours


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## GURU DUTT

pakistanipower said:


> You're troll kid nothing you know nothing about our airforce as well as your airforce go kid play your toys this place is not for yours


wow im so scared ... BBBRRRRRRR


----------



## RPK

The AB trail of one of the prototype during the take-off in a night sortie..

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## Water Car Engineer

*Tejas Aircraft Formation Practice in Rajasthan for Republic Day Celebrations*

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## MimophantSlayer

After USAF chief now French AF chief flies in Tejas.


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## sathya

Troubled Sp5 from additional assembly line made first flight.


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## SQ8

To get an idea of just how old the Tejas program is




This is a Tejas drawing in a book published in 1989.. almost 30 years ago.

Love the bit about satisfying IAF light close air support and AS requirements of the mid 1990s.
@Dazzler @Windjammer

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## AyanRay

Oscar said:


> To get an idea of just how old the Tejas program is
> View attachment 453648
> 
> This is a Tejas drawing in a book published in 1989.. almost 30 years ago.
> 
> Love the bit about satisfying IAF light close air support and AS requirements of the mid 1990s.
> @Dazzler @Windjammer



So looking at the pic, we can say that even the design was not frozen at that time.

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## Water Car Engineer

AyanRay said:


> So looking at the pic, we can say that even the design was not frozen at that time.



Not even close, in the late 80s, early 90s canard designs were being looked at.

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964074994564255744


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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-dassaults-choice-nirmala/article22794639.ece

Ms. Sitharaman was in conversation with N. Ravi, Publisher,_The Hindu_, on “In defence of the realm: how prepared is India?” at The Huddle.

“In the UPA [United Progressive Alliance] non-deal, HAL had clearly stated manpower, which was not accepted by manufacturer. If HAL does a deal with a private company, it is absolutely nonsense to say that it was done because the Prime Minister handpicked the company.”

N. Ram, Chairman, The Hindu Group, asked ''Is the Centre’s refusal to reveal details of the deal — as was seen in Parliament recently — a 'self-goal' for the ruling NDA (National Democratic Alliance) government as the Congress has been claiming.''

In response, Ms. Sitharaman said: “I want to answer, and it would bring satisfaction to all the people here. But it will also lead to satisfaction for our enemies ... But how many times has the UPA also sought protection under national security. We [BJP, then in the Opposition] did not express outrage on this.”

In her opening remarks, the Minister said indigenous defence procurement was being emphasised, with 120 out of 170 defence contracts being with Indian companies. “Until recently, 60% of components were imported. Now, it is 35%,” she noted.

However, responding to a question on the issues of procurement of the HAL-developed Tejas light combat aircraft, Ms. Sitharaman said that while 40 were procured by the Air Force, processes were being completed to order another 83.

“There has to be serious improvement in scaling up of production by HAL, either through outsourcing or their own,” she said.


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## MimophantSlayer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967015256995352577
Tejas Mk2 a comin....

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## Water Car Engineer

cyclops said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967015256995352577
> Tejas Mk2 a comin....



Heard they're looking back at canard designs for Mark 2.


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## MimophantSlayer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Heard they're looking back at canard designs for Mark 2.



That's a whole another set of complications and will be exactly like the Gripen E.
Hope they get it right though, if they are going forward with it.


----------



## GodToons

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/968367625196769282


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## Hindustani78

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/hal-carries-out-hot-refueling-trial-on-tejas/550563.html





Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. — File photo
Bengaluru, February 27

Inching close to Final Operational Clearance (FOC), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has carried out a hot refueling trial on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas, followed by a sortie at the HAL airport here. 

The hot refueling cum sortie of LCA-Tejas was conducted yesterday.

The system performance during the refueling session was in-line with design requirements and was satisfactory, HAL said in a release.

 In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA would be the first to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft, it said. Hot Refueling is a single point pressure refueling of the aircraft with the engine in operation.

 It is a process by which a fighter aircraft is refueled (in between sorties) while its engine is in operation, thereby cutting down refueling time by half and turn-around time significantly. 

HAL said this capability is highly desired in combat situation, which basically puts aside the need for the pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refueling to begin. Further, with this, a major requirement of LCA Air Force Mk.1A has been achieved, the release said. — PTI


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

Well, Mark 2 is surely going to happen.

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## kmc_chacko

Water Car Engineer said:


> Well, Mark 2 is surely going to happen.



But identification and enrollment process for Suppliers supplying parts is going very slow.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

kmc_chacko said:


> But identification and enrollment process for Suppliers supplying parts is going very slow.




Well, what's worse is that they havent even frozen the design, yet. It's definitely going to get airframe changes, to the point it might get canards. GE have already supplied some of the 99 ordered F414 engines, those engines are waiting on prototype airframes.


----------



## randomradio

Oscar said:


> To get an idea of just how old the Tejas program is
> View attachment 453648
> 
> This is a Tejas drawing in a book published in 1989.. almost 30 years ago.
> 
> Love the bit about satisfying IAF light close air support and AS requirements of the mid 1990s.
> @Dazzler @Windjammer



With the invention of RSS FBW, a multimode radar, BVR missiles, HMDS and precision munitions, the aircraft originally designed for the IAF's CAS and AS requirements for the mid 90s never reached the prototyping stage. A more advanced aircraft reached prototype stage instead and even that has now been superseded by a more advanced version.

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## Hindustani78

Sitharaman said the ministry has asked public sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to speed up production of the Tejas fighter jets. "They have been asked to look at outsourcing of work to speed up matters. 
The government remains committed on the Tejas," she said, adding that the Mark-II version of the plane is being made. It will be a big leap forward, she said. 

Sources said the first flight is expected next year. 

The IAF had ordered 40 Tejas of Mark-1 variety, and another 83 planes of the Mark-1A (an upgraded version) are to be ordered anytime now. The IAF has asked the HAL to send in its quote. The MoD wants the HAL to make up to 18 planes per annum from its existing capacity of just eight planes per annum.

Talking about the events on the Line of Control (LoC), the Defence Minister said, "We are not allowing them (terrorists) to come in. We are eliminating them at the border. Infiltration is controlled to a large extent."


----------



## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


> Well, Mark 2 is surely going to happen.


Do you think that ADA will come up with mk2 in 5 yeara,no way.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

#hydra# said:


> Do you think that ADA will come up with mk2 in 5 yeara,no way.




Hard task.


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## Foxbat Alok

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not even close, in the late 80s, early 90s canard designs were being looked at.


So mk2 is coming with canards


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Foxbat Alok said:


> So mk2 is coming with canards



Design hasnt been finalized, but canards are being tested again. Wait and see.

Anyway






LEVCONs


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## BON PLAN

Water Car Engineer said:


> Design hasnt been finalized, but canards are being tested again. Wait and see.
> 
> Anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LEVCONs


If Canards are to be integrated, the angle of the main delta will have to be reduce (as Rafale vs Mirage 2000).
It's a big change.


----------



## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> Do you think that ADA will come up with mk2 in 5 yeara,no way.



It's not clear what they mean by "ready to fly".

Whether it means the aircraft will be redesigned and then see first flight in 2022 or if the aircraft itself will be ready by then.

Anyway, the aircraft production line will free up only in 2026 or so. HAL is yet to deliver 110 LCAs. You can expect Mk2s to be delivered from 2027 onwards.


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## SipahSalar

cyclops said:


> After USAF chief now French AF chief flies in Tejas.


French air force chief US air force chief he fly karain gay bus, IAF aur IN kabhi nahi.


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## proud_indian

SipahSalar said:


> French air force chief US air force chief he fly karain gay bus, IAF aur IN kabhi nahi.


 
They have already clocked more then 700 hours in the new formed squadron.


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## sudhir007



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## Foxbat Alok

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not even close, in the late 80s, early 90s canard designs were being looked at.


Sir can you tell me which year photo is this(last two) 
Looks like very old ..also it's look like mk1(canpoy)


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## MimophantSlayer

Tejas production is ramping up.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/973514329889886208


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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/973529829344759808


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## sathya

Even with sp 9, only 5 made this year, 1 short of planned.


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## randomradio

sathya said:


> Even with sp 9, only 5 made this year, 1 short of planned.



SP-10 will be ready next month. Such a small delay is acceptable.

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## Bhoot Pishach

sathya said:


> Even with sp 9, only 5 made this year, 1 short of planned.



Check your figure with hard facts

SP9 is not out of works till now, so till SP8 it is 5 Tejas this Financial Year i.e. from March-2017 to March-2018.
SP-1 ... LA-5001 ... 01-Oct-14
SP-2 ... LA-5002 ... 22-Mar-16
SP-3 ... LA-5003 ... 28-Sep-16

Financial Year 2017-18:
SP-4 ... LA-5004 ... 03-Mar-17
SP-6 ... LA-5006 ... 30-Jun-17
SP-7 ... LA-5007 ... 12-Dec-17
SP-5 ... LA-5005 ... 02-Feb-18
SP-8 ... LA-5008 ... 13-Mar-18

SP-9 ...LA-5009 All possibility that the delivery is made before the end of March-2018.

Look out the DELIVERIES FROM DECEMBER-2017 onwards; 03 Tejas delivered and 4th one is on the verge of delivery. Which means 04 Tejas in 04 months.

And you are saying manufacturing speed is slow????

Mark my words from April-2018 to March-2019 they are set to deliver 01 Tejas every month i.e. 12 in Financial Year 2018-19.

And in 2019-2020 they are planning to deliver 16 Tejas.

Is this slow speed???

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## randomradio



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## Water Car Engineer

sp8

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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969562515762900993

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969561818979954688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969545215114530816


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## Bhoot Pishach

BC!!! here you go for Tejas MK-II on Roll.

https://www.stratpost.com/drdo-asks-for-lca-mk2-funding/

*DRDO asks for LCA Mk2 funding 
IAF 'committed' to 201 LCA Mk2 fighters*
* by Saurabh Joshi • March 14, 2018 *

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has asked the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence for additional funds to develop the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2.

In submissions made to the committee, Secretary, Defence Research and Development and Chairman, DRDO, S. Christopher mentioned a request of INR 800 crore for work on the LCA Mk2, also, saying the Indian Air Force (IAF) had committed itself to 201 LCA Mk2, in addition to the 123 LCA Mk1/1A or order or being contemplated at the moment. The naval LCA was also intended to be based on the LCA Mk2.

The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence cited his remarks in a report released on Tuesday, in which he was quoted as saying, “We have LCA Programme which is coming under grants-in-aid which requires funding. As of now, we have got the orders for about 123 aircraft and also Air Force is committed to take another 201 aircraft which means, Mark-II to be designed and developed, we are in the half way through. There are some expenditures involved. We request another Rs.800 Crore under grants-in-aid. If it could be provided we will be happy.”

Christopher had made a reference to an IAF commitment for 201 LCA Mk2 earlier this month, as well. The _Indian Express_ quoted him as saying in Ahmedabad, “In addition to that (123 LCA Mk1/1A order), the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying.”

These remarks come during a period of confusion about the intention of the defence ministry and IAF with respect to acquisition of fighter aircraft. After the withdrawal of the IAF tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in 2015 and the order for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar announced its intention to hold a competition for a Make in India single-engine fighter aircraft.

Fighters were also listed as one of four domestic manufacturing priorities in Chapter 07 of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) on strategic partnerships, released last year.

More recently, reports have emerged suggesting that the defence ministry under Nirmala Sitharaman might be open to throwing the competition open to all manufacturers and fighters, to include twin-engine aircraft, as well.

At the same time, while there is talk of IAF interest in the U.S. fifth generation F-35, the French have also urged India towards a repeat government-to-government order for Rafale fighters.

The IAF’s current order numbers for the LCA:


LCA Mk1 (IOC standard): 20
LCA Mk1 (FOC standard): 20
LCA Mk1A: 83
IOC refers to Initial Operational Clearance; the existing standard of the aircraft, which includes a number of waivers of Staff Qualitative Requirements (SQRs). FOC refers to Final Operational Clearance, which is the next objective for the aircraft; to demonstrate an enhanced capability to meet additional SQRs, including air-to-air refueling, and integration with the Derby and Python missiles. *The LCA Mk1A includes four specific capability improvements prescribed by the IAF. These include:*



*Digital RWR and External SPJ Pod*
*Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar*
*Combined Interrogator and Transponder (CIT)*
*ASRAM – Close Combat Missile*
*Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile*
Although the defence ministry has approved the acquisition of 83 LCA Mk1A, no order has been placed yet.

The LCA Mk2 requires a more powerful engine than the the current GE F404 powering the LCA Mk1. The GE F414 had been selected for the LCA Mk2. However, there is now speculation a revived indigenous Kaveri engine could power the aircraft with French assistance. This is not the first time such an idea has been considered.

Either way, any engine upgrade would likely require significant changes to the existing airframe. In recent years, both the IAF and the navy had dropped the idea of pursuing an LCA Mk2 model from active consideration.

On its part, the committee recommended the extra cash for the LCA Mk2, but said, “The Committee, while examining the Demands for Grants, discovered that delays in completion of projects is a part and parcel of DRDOs functioning. For instance, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was supposed to be completed in 2008 but the revised date of completion is June, 2019. In the case of Aero engine, Kaveri, the original date of completion was 1996 but was revised to December, 2009. Further revision of the completion schedule continues to be under process. Similar is the case with LCA-Navy, Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System, Air to Air Missile system-Astra, Long Range Surface to Air Missile etc. to name a few.”

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## sudhir007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/973901988185325574

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## sathya

3 Tejas to join IAF this month

- idrw

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## MimophantSlayer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/975121571282145280


----------



## Theparadox

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1703222259772215

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## Max

This Facebook post is no longer available. It may have been removed or the privacy settings of the post may have changed.


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## rishav

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1703161813111593

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## Taygibay

Really? That was worth a thread by itself?
Wow, can't wait for this title then :

LCA Tejas SP-läkh successfully completes first flight
24th March 2398
​A bit much but good day, Tay.

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## SherDil

Taygibay said:


> Really? That was worth a thread by itself?
> Wow, can't wait for this title then :
> 
> LCA Tejas SP-läkh successfully completes first flight
> 24th March 2398
> ​A bit much but good day, Tay.

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## Imran Khan

its painted ? first flight should be in yellow raw body as we know ?


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## KapitaanAli

Taygibay said:


> Really? That was worth a thread by itself?
> Wow, can't wait for this title then :
> 
> LCA Tejas SP-läkh successfully completes first flight
> 24th March 2398
> ​A bit much but good day, Tay.


I agree. These threads should be stopped at some point. But hey, we've worse threads. So let some of us have fun by blacking the faces of our own people who claims production rate is low.



Imran Khan said:


> its painted ? first flight should be in yellow raw body as we know ?


That's for representation.
Here's SP8 for better representation:

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## Ultima Thule

KapitaanAli said:


> I agree. These threads should be stopped at some point. But hey, we've worse threads. So let some of us have fun by blacking the faces of our own people who claims production rate is low.
> 
> 
> That's for representation.
> Here's SP8 for better representation:
> View attachment 461463


No no bro SP-9 should be build from premiere like this



and letter be painted


----------



## thesolar65

It should not be a thread, but looking at the first page of new post we won't find any defence related thread though this is a defence forum.


----------



## BATMAN

Thank you USA


----------



## faithfulguy

Taygibay said:


> Really? That was worth a thread by itself?
> Wow, can't wait for this title then :
> 
> LCA Tejas SP-läkh successfully completes first flight
> 24th March 2398
> ​A bit much but good day, Tay.



Well, to Indians. Being able to produce one plane is a cause for celebration. It’s a major achievement for them.


----------



## Tumba

Thats four Tejas MK1 serial production versions taking first flight this year, production has started to crank upwards.

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## AMCA

faithfulguy said:


> Well, to Indians. Being able to produce one plane is a cause for celebration. It’s a major achievement for them.



And every single aircraft leaves you with burns ! Why else would you bother visiting this thread. If its joy for us, it burns for you.



BATMAN said:


> Thank you USA



Yes, for sending our engineers back in the wake of Pokhran II, without which the Tejas's Control Laws wouldnt have been an easy reality.

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## deep.ocean

Great achievement, hoping to see LCA in large numbers. Potent aircraft to deter any asian country and Super Powder country.


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## undercover JIX

Great, Teja is future of Indian Air Force.

there might be 5th or 6th gen work going on Teja but Indians are very good at keeping their R&D secret.

Good Luck.


----------



## MimophantSlayer

*Two Tejas SPs in one month.*
Yup, it seems like 8 per year is very much possible, and dare I say maybe even more.







I'd like to see the faces of naysayers who were absolutely certain this year will be the same as last.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/977775663900954624

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## KapitaanAli

Imran Khan said:


> its painted ? first flight should be in yellow raw body as we know ?





pakistanipower said:


> No no bro SP-9 should be build from premiere like this
> View attachment 461465
> and letter be painted


SP9:

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## faithfulguy

AMCA said:


> Maybe you dont have the liberty to poop outside, that you have to log into PDF everytime. Texas? What are you on recently?



Tejas is named after the state of Texas. It means Texas in Spanish.

So do you scoop up after yourself?


----------



## Ultima Thule

faithfulguy said:


> Tejas is named after the state of Texas. It means Texas in Spanish.
> 
> So do you scoop up after yourself?


their Tejas name is not in Spanish but in Sanskrit meaning *Radiant*

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## RPK

pakistanipower said:


> its more like painted to bro rather than build from *premiere*



It is not premier, it ED coated
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophoretic_deposition

This is bacause this flight is not for prototype. Since it is the production variety don’t require to fly in ED coated

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## AMCA

faithfulguy said:


> Tejas is named after the state of Texas. It means Texas in Spanish.
> 
> So do you scoop up after yourself?



Spanish as a langauge was born centuries after Sanskrit, so technically Tejas came before Texas. Is that what you do after yourself?



rambro said:


> You can keep that deplorable liberty to poo everywhere outside not in the toilet to yourself.
> 
> Rational humans prefer to do it in the loo.



Rationality is in the mind, when did it end up at the loo?

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

The engine is American? Methinks too prone to sanctions.


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## KapitaanAli

undertakerwwefan said:


> The engine is American? Methinks too prone to sanctions.


It's a specially made version of F404.
Sanctions are okay. We've enough in stock until Snecma-Kaveri comes online.

We even got some F414 for AMCA prototypes.


----------



## Telescopic Sight

AMCA said:


> Spanish as a langauge was born centuries after Sanskrit, so technically Tejas came before Texas. Is that what you do after yourself?



You seriously think this person is in Texas? Next you'll say that you believe he is NOT really Pakistani !


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Talking about the next version of the Tejas, called ‘Mark1-A’, Dr Christopher said: “The design other than the AESA radar and the jammer pod is complete.” 
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is looking to import the AESA radar even as DRDO made a radar that will be tested next month. The IAF is looking at 83 ‘Mark1-A’, with 59 improvements over the existing Tejas.
The Indian Air Force has projected a need for 324 fighter jets over 15 years and has officially indicated that it needs the ‘Tejas Mark 2’ (medium combat aircraft). It will carry a more powerful engine and weigh almost 20 per cent heavier than Tejas.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/arjun-mark-2-tank-set-to-see-light-of-day/563832.html

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## faithfulguy

Telescopic Sight said:


> You seriously think this person is in Texas? Next you'll say that you believe he is NOT really Pakistani !



@siegecrossbow have been living in Texas for a while. I had recently moved here. Just because I’m not in awe of Supa Powa 2012 does not make me a Pakistani. Tejas is the Spanish name for Texas. The Spanish Texans are known as Tejanos.


----------



## MimophantSlayer

Taygibay said:


> Really? That was worth a thread by itself?
> Wow, can't wait for this title then :
> 
> LCA Tejas SP-läkh successfully completes first flight
> 24th March 2398
> ​A bit much but good day, Tay.



A thread? Seriously?
There is a whole subfora for JF-17 and pakistanis make threads about the most minor stuff relating to JF-17 on it.

I don't have a problem with it, and seeing as this is a pakistani forum, pakistanis are more than justified to make as many threads as they want, but I'd say its more than a little disingenuous to say that this news isn't worth a thread, especially so since the question of Tejas' production rate has been in the ether for over a year now.

Oh btw, 2 Tejas SPs flew on this month alone.




faithfulguy said:


> I’m not trying to troll. I didn’t name an Indian plane after the US state of Texas.



Is this a new thing?
Running out of things to troll about now are we?

What spanish connection does the Tejas have?
You have any proof to support your claim?

Please at least have an original and a decent reason to troll about, you are wasting everyone's time by not being an interesting troll.

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## AMCA

Telescopic Sight said:


> You seriously think this person is in Texas? Next you'll say that you believe he is NOT really Pakistani !



He is just offended with everything Indian or may I say he is Xenophobic?


----------



## Taygibay

cyclops said:


> A thread? Seriously?
> There is a whole subfora for JF-17 and pakistanis make threads about the most minor stuff relating to JF-17 on it.
> 
> I don't have a problem with it, and seeing as this is a pakistani forum, pakistanis are more than justified to make as many threads as they want, but I'd say its more than a little disingenuous to say that this news isn't worth a thread, especially so since the question of Tejas' production rate has been in the ether for over a year now.
> 
> Oh btw, 2 Tejas SPs flew on this month alone.



It would only have been disingenuous if
I held the opinion only for LCA. I don't.

Yes a sub-fora is crazy, except for two things.
First, an entire section doesn't shock me when
in context so that a forum section in BRrrrrrrF
or InDef or StratRes.... devoted to Tejas is fine.

And yes, we start too many threads IMHoO on
PDF period, regardless of the subject.

And yet, the Thunder is even more important to
Pakistan than the LCA is for India which might
explain the sub-fora. If each nation suddenly
lost all its relics (-7/III-V/Bisons/Jags/etc), then
Pakistan would have 2 modern planes, one potent
but foreign and one partially local ... whereas India
would have Refurb 2000s / MKI / Rafale and about
12 other types if we go by rumours, stories, articles
with only procurement issues as a limiting factor.

And better yet still, someone merged the thread
with the general Tejas one as should be so that
by now both your post and mine are all/both weird.

Last but not least, if your closing remark in red had
been the title and the center of the piece, I'd have
restrained from commenting ... nah, forget that &
let's be honest, I'd have made a different joke 
but it would have admittedly been more reasonable.

No hard feelings mate, have a great day, Tay.


----------



## August is Fun

Thales AESA best option for LCA.


----------



## Telescopic Sight

faithfulguy said:


> @siegecrossbow have been living in Texas for a while. I had recently moved here. Just because I’m not in awe of Supa Powa 2012 does not make me a Pakistani. Tejas is the Spanish name for Texas. The Spanish Texans are known as Tejanos.


There is no need to be embarrassed that you are Pakistani. 
And to pretend that you are in Texas is just cringe worthy !


----------



## shah86

lCA Tejas SP - 09 (LA-5009) has successfully completed it's maiden Flight.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/indias-ninth-lca-tejas-completes-maiden-flight-bengaluru/


----------



## Taygibay

^^^ LOL buddy, welcome first of all but...
you're late by 2 pages and 4 days with this
on The Paradox as found right here !

Have a good day, Tay.

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## amardeep mishra

Telescopic Sight said:


> There is no need to be embarrassed that you are Pakistani.
> And to pretend that you are in Texas is just cringe worthy !


I most certainly wouldn't have commented but the guy(@Taygibay ) you are bashing is one of the saner voices here. No need to call names man!

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## KapitaanAli

amardeep mishra said:


> I most certainly wouldn't have commented but the guy(@Taygibay ) you are bashing is one of the saner voices here. No need to call names man!


He's not bashing TayTay.
The guy he's bashing makes zero contribution.

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## amardeep mishra

KapitaanAli said:


> He's not bashing TayTay.
> The guy he's bashing makes zero contribution.


Oh crap, sorry I was little high. I'm really sorry.

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## rishav

what about kaveri engine ? any updates ?


----------



## Trisonics

rishav said:


> what about kaveri engine ? any updates ?



Slow progress but stepping stones are being built. I don't understand everything here (see link) but I'm happy they are presenting their research papers in reputable conferences. It will bear fruit but it needs to come soon..

http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=2672138


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

For the first time Tejas to be deployed on Pakistani Border:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/979958204053340162






@Taygibay 

See what Indians are doing with their failed fighter.

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## aman_rai0007

Bhoot Pishach said:


> For the first time Tejas to be deployed on Pakistani Border:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/979958204053340162
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Taygibay
> 
> See what Indians are doing with their failed fighter.



Failed??
Still better than the joint venture fighter having 58% share in painting the plane

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
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## Dazzler

aman_rai0007 said:


> Failed??
> Still better than the joint venture fighter having 58% share in painting the plane



Better keep it to Tejas instead of indulging into silly arguments.


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## Taygibay

Trisonics said:


> I don't understand everything here (see link) but I'm happy they are presenting their research papers in reputable conferences.



For short, they reduced "bad" vibrations from
within the blades but the important part is how.

We've learned during Président Macron's visit
that a lot of help will come in the form of testing
sessions on UHQuality benches available only in
France [ versus in Bharat ].

Then you want to specify for some people that
work has begun but is hard to identify because
it is after all secret and done in sequences.

When the deal was cleared, Safran engineers 
came to India and were given needs by DRDO.
Areas of exchange were defined by time & scope.
Small and urgent started then or soon after.

These projects are bundled by value until 1B€ is
reached and offsets/ToT is completed.

We literally can't know until some clue like that
link you gave comes our way.



Bhoot Pishach said:


> See what Indians are doing with their failed fighter.



Image headline : "... Tejas in operational role will
be a big boost to Make In India programme ..."
Yeah, they're using it to promote the government's
image! Usually, one picks successes for that purpose though.

So Tejas got declared operational a little too fast
as was the F-35. Your defence clowning, not my
circus?
The important thing is that you can compare your
so-so fighter to theirs and see which is "modern".

Both took way too many years and way too much
money to get to FOC so it's a fair comparison? 

Good day both, Tay.

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## MimophantSlayer

_*Hmmm, I guess the Tejas is very maintenance friendly after all.



*_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984395890788941824

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## MimophantSlayer

*Tejas registered 100% serviceability during Ex. Gagan Shakti.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/987244256858460161
*Tejas OBOGS*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/987022951722733568
*Kaveri Turbofan*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/986222558184951808

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## GodToons

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force’s pan-India exercise Gagan Shakti-2018, for practising war-time drills witnessed the IAF pushing the limits of its every fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, which entailed conducting six sorties per day on all of them, totalling to about 9,000 sorties. For the Tejas, this is a good development as the IAF usually sticks to around three sorties per day on every Tejas. 

However, the Tejas was not without problems and had developed snags during the exercise, top IAF officials said on Tuesday. 

Nevertheless, the IAF has expressed happiness with the performance of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and is looking towards faster production of them, explained the officials. This is significant as according to the reports, IAF has been critical of the operational capability of the Tejas, which also has several significant shortfalls. 

The IAF, earlier this month, had issued a Request for Information, stating its intent to procure 110 new fighters. Officials added that the high serviceability (80%) of the aircraft was possible during the exercise due to a dedicated maintenance team. “The Air Headquarters was also monitoring the situation and we had people checking from where spares can be made available. So we ensured that the aircraft serviceability didn’t go down,” explained an official. “The logistics stamina of the IAF and .. 




https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...er-gagan-shakti-2018/articleshow/63905916.cms


----------



## MimophantSlayer

*IAF pushes for faster production of Tejas after Gagan Shakti-2018*
By Shaurya Karanbir Gurung, ET Bureau | Updated: Apr 25, 2018, 12.02 PM IST




The Tejas was used during the exercise to check its efficiency in operations such as ground attack and other strike missions.

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force’s pan-India exercise Gagan Shakti-2018, for practising war-time drills witnessed the IAF pushing the limits of its every fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, which entailed conducting six sorties per day on all of them, totalling to about 9,000 sorties. For the Tejas, this is a good development as the IAF usually sticks to around three sorties per day on every Tejas.

However, the Tejas was not without problems and had developed snags during the exercise, top IAF officials said on Tuesday.

Nevertheless, the IAF has expressed happiness with the performance of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and is looking towards faster production of them, explained the officials. This is significant as according to the reports, IAF has been critical of the operational capability of the Tejas, which also has several significant shortfalls.

A senior IAF official dealing with Gagan Shakti, which was conducted between April 8 and 22, explained that fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, Sukhoi-30 and MiG-29, undertook ‘surge operations’. These operations mean generating maximum number of sorties in a 24-hours cycle*. “We have carried out our trials and we will be able to generate six sorties per Tejas per day for all the eight Tejas,” *said the official, adding that these number of sorties were conducted on every Tejas during the exercise. The six sorties per day for the fighters was done on days when it didn’t have missions such as long distance.

The Tejas was used during the exercise to check its efficiency in operations such as ground attack and other strike missions.* “We are happy with the performance of the Tejas and are looking forward to the faster production of them,” *said another senior official.






The Tejas, however, also faced different types of snags during the exercise. *“These were routine snags. But we were able to recover from the snags we encountered. They didn’t affect the operation of the Tejas,”* said an officia,l adding that the snags were not a nagging problem.
The exercise was a major employment of the Tejas by the *IAF, which conducted more than 11,000 sorties on over 1100 aircraft, including combat, transport and helicopters. Out of this, 9,000 sorties were conducted by fighter aircraft*. *“This was a peacetime exercise and we generated large number of sorties. During war, we will generate higher number of sorties than what we did during the exercise,”* said an official.

This is the state despite the IAF having only 31fighter squadrons when it needs 42 to tackle the collusive threat of Pakistan and China. It conducted offensive and defensive operations along both the western and eastern fronts. “We tried to maximise what we can do with our current capability,” said an official, adding that with more number of fighters the IAF’s capabilities will rise.
ADVERTISEMENT

The IAF, earlier this month, had issued a Request for Information, stating its intent to procure 110 new fighters. *Officials added that the high serviceability (80%) of the aircraft was possible during the exercise due to a dedicated maintenance team. *“The Air Headquarters was also monitoring the situation and we had people checking from where spares can be made available. So we ensured that the aircraft serviceability didn’t go down,” explained an official. “The logistics stamina of the IAF and the ability to sustain continuous operations through day and night was put through a rigorous assessment,” said another official.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...er-gagan-shakti-2018/articleshow/63905916.cms


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## KapitaanAli

_Press Information Bureau 
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
28-April-2018 12:40 IST_
*LCA Tejas Achieves Yet Another Milestone Towards FOC Certification *

Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully fired Derby Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range Missile to expand the firing envelope as well as to demonstrate safe operation of the aircraft during missile plume ingestion into the aircraft engine under worst case scenarios. The missile was launched from LCATejas piloted by Wg Cdr Siddharth Singh on 27 April 2018 from the firing range off the Goa coast after exhaustive study of the missile separation characteristics and plume envelope. LCATejas has been designed & developed by DRDO’s autonomous society – Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

Integration of Derby, a BVR class missile is one of the major objectives of Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCATejas.

The aircraft was tracked by two other Tejas aircraft in close formation to capture the firing event in the specially instrumented high speed cameras for detailed analysis and comparison with the simulation model for validation. The entire planning, practice sorties and final firing was carried out by ADA and it’s National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) officials Cmde JA Maolankar and GpCapt A Kabadwal, IAF, DG(AQA), HAL & INS HANSA.

Based on the successful integration and demonstration, Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA), a unit of DRDO has cleared the series production aircraft of Squadron 45, to be equipped with Derby operational capability. LCATejas has successfully completed a series of captive flight trials to clear Derby for the full operational capability in the entire FOC envelope. In the past, Tejas has qualified for the armaments and missile release related trials.

Raksha Mantri Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman has complimented DRDO and other agencies involved for making LCATejas fighter jet, a world class aircraft platform. 

Chairman DRDO& Secretary Department of Defence R&D Dr. S Christopher, congratulated and said that with this firing, LCATejas achieved another major milestone towards FOC certification.








*NAo/Rajib*


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## MimophantSlayer

*GTRE to fly Kaveri in a test aircraft again next year before Aero India 2019 after instituting necessary changes outlined by Snecma.*
__________________________________________

*Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets*
While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.

As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Water Car Engineer




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## jetray

cyclops said:


> *GTRE to fly Kaveri in a test aircraft again next year before Aero India 2019 after instituting necessary changes outlined by Snecma.*
> __________________________________________
> 
> *Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets*
> While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.
> 
> As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.
> 
> While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.
> 
> After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.
> 
> SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.
> 
> This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.
> 
> Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.
> 
> As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.
> 
> It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.
> 
> After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.
> 
> One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.
> 
> Greater thrust needed
> 
> However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.
> 
> It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.
> 
> So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.
> 
> This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.
> 
> However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.
> 
> Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.
> 
> https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz


frankly why do we really expect french to help us build the engine which will deny them a future market for their products?
If we look at the amount spent Rs2333 crores ( around $500 million) for a decade is peanuts. Any big big MNC would spend that amount in a year. Giving access to foreign agency will only end in monetary exploitation or sabotage. 

Problem is that one agency is leading/involved in the effort which cuts down the probability of break through. Instead we should have several agencies partnering with private companies which should compete with each other to build the product.


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## AyanRay

jetray said:


> frankly why do we really expect french to help us build the engine which will deny them a future market for their products?
> If we look at the amount spent Rs2333 crores ( around $500 million) for a decade is peanuts. Any big big MNC would spend that amount in a year. Giving access to foreign agency will only end in monetary exploitation or sabotage.
> 
> Problem is that one agency is leading/involved in the effort which cuts down the probability of break through. Instead we should have several agencies partnering with private companies which should compete with each other to build the product.



Do you think the French is helping for free? They are not providing any TOT, just conducting a thorough audit of the engine for a fees. They will give there suggestions as to which parts needs to be replaced, they wont tell how to make those parts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## KapitaanAli

The French help runs into billions of dollars in offsets.

I at least want the dry thrust Kaveri certified and ready for Ghatak as soon as possible.


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## aman_rai0007

The 2019 timeline is impressive.
If it's achieved then it would be a great addition


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## jetray

AyanRay said:


> Do you think the French is helping for free? They are not providing any TOT, just conducting a thorough audit of the engine for a fees. They will give there suggestions as to which parts needs to be replaced, they wont tell how to make those parts.


They are getting money to know where we are in development stage and most importantly to BS us bigtime.


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## PurpleStone

KapitaanAli said:


> The French help runs into billions of dollars in offsets.
> 
> I at least want the dry thrust Kaveri certified and ready for Ghatak as soon as possible.



The main issue is, Karevi would no longer be indigenous as it would sport Snecma M88 core. It is as good as OR should I say as bad as any other imported engine.


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## MimophantSlayer

PurpleStone said:


> The main issue is, Karevi would no longer be indigenous as it would sport Snecma M88 core. It is as good as OR should I say as bad as any other imported engine.



I think the M88 core story was bs to begin with.
Kabini core will still be used.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## MimophantSlayer

*Post upgradation Tejas’ Mark-2 to 
become a medium weight fighter*
By Raghu Krishnan, ET Bureau | Updated: May 18, 2018, 08.40 AM IST






The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force.

BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a
medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.

Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a *maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).*
Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.
“The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”

India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.

The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.

After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.

The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...edium-weight-fighter/articleshow/64214939.cms


----------



## leapx

cyclops said:


> *Post upgradation Tejas’ Mark-2 to
> become a medium weight fighter*
> By Raghu Krishnan, ET Bureau | Updated: May 18, 2018, 08.40 AM IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force.
> 
> BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a
> medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a *maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).*
> Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.
> “The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”
> 
> India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.
> 
> The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.
> 
> After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.
> 
> The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.
> 
> https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...edium-weight-fighter/articleshow/64214939.cms


Another confusing decision. 
Yes, Gripen is getting bigger and heavier. But Gripen users basically have Gripen 
only. While India already has a lot SU30 in service and rafale coming.


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## randomradio

leapx said:


> Another confusing decision.
> Yes, Gripen is getting bigger and heavier. But Gripen users basically have Gripen
> only. While India already has a lot SU30 in service and rafale coming.



Otoh, Gripen users are small air forces while the IAF is very big.


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## araberuni7

*India's LCA Mk 1A programme faces delays as IAF insists on additional requirements*
Serial production of India’s indigenously developed Tejas Mk 1A Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) could face further delays as the Indian Air Force (IAF) demands the incorporation of new and upgraded systems.

Sources from within manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) told _Jane’s_ on 22 May that the IAF recently informed the state-owned aerospace company that the Mk 1A model needs to feature advanced ‘smart cockpit’ multi-function displays and identification friend-or-foe (IFF) systems.

Moreover, the service demands that digital map generators and upgraded radio altimeters be fitted onto the aircraft before it is approved for serial production.

Industry sources said that although some of these systems can be commercially sourced, integrating them with the software currently installed on the fighter’s mission computer would be “time-consuming” and could defer the fighter’s production schedule by about two years.
http://www.janes.com/article/80238/...ays-as-iaf-insists-on-additional-requirements


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## aman_rai0007

Any updates on sp10 
I saw upto sp14 on various jigs in a 8 months old video on YouTube


----------



## MimophantSlayer

More or less a confirmation of this....


CyclopS said:


> *GTRE to fly Kaveri in a test aircraft again next year before Aero India 2019 after instituting necessary changes outlined by Snecma.*
> __________________________________________
> 
> *Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets*
> While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.
> 
> As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.
> 
> While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.
> 
> After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.
> 
> SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.
> 
> This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.
> 
> Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.
> 
> As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.
> 
> It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.
> 
> After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.
> 
> One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.
> 
> Greater thrust needed
> 
> However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.
> 
> It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.
> 
> So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.
> 
> This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.
> 
> However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.
> 
> Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.
> 
> https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz


----------



## aman_rai

Shoulder they first fly it with a twin engine jets...
And what does limited envelop flight test means


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## $@rJen

*Lca Tejas Achieves Yet Another Milestone on it way to FOC Certification*
Published July 5, 2018 | By admin
SOURCE: DRDO WITH INPUTS FROM IDRW NEWS NETWORK






Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully fred Derby air-to-air Beyond Visual Range Missile (BVRM) to expand its fring envelope as well as to demonstrate safe operation of the aircraft during missile plume ingestion into the aircraft engine under worst case scenarios. The missile was launched from LCA Tejas piloted by Wg Cdr Siddharth Singh on 27 April 2018 from the firing range off the Goa coast after exhaustive study of the missile separation characteristics and plume envelope.

Integration of Derby is one of the major objectives of Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of Tejas. Tejas has been designed and developed by DRDO’s autonomous society Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). The aircraft was tracked by two other Tejas aircraft in close formation to capture the firing event in the specially instrumented high speed cameras for detail analysis and comparison with the simulation model for validation.

The entire planning, practice sorties and final fring was carried out by ADA and its National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) officials Cmde JA Maolankar and Gp Capt A Kabadwal; IAF; DG (AQA); HAL and INS HANSA. Based on the successful integration and demonstration, Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA), a unit of DRDO, cleared the series production aircraft of Squadron 45 to be equipped with Derby operational capability.

LCA Tejas has successfully completed a series of captive ?ight trials to clear Derby for the full operational capability in the entire FOC envelope. In the past, Tejas has qualified for the armaments and missile release related trials. Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman complimented DRDO and other agencies involved in making Tejas a world-class aircraft platform. Chairman, DRDO, and Secretary, Department of Defence R&D, Dr S Christopher in his congratulatory message said that with this fring Tejas has achieved another major milestone towards FOC certification.

*FOC *

Demonstration of Inflight Refueling Capabilities are only major hurdle which are left to be demonstrated on LCA-Tejas before FOC Certification is granted to the LCA-Tejas Program according to the information provided by sources close to idrw.org . LCA-Tejas already has completed all Captive flight trials with the AAR probe successfully and also has demonstrated on ground Refueling Capabilities using the AAR probe. Most of the Computer simulations of LCA-Tejas carrying out Inflight Refueling from Ilyushin IL-78 “MARS” (Mid Air Refuelling System) and Sukhoi-30MKI aircraft from various altitudes have been carried out successfully at present aircrafts are performing dry contact trials where AAR probe connect with the aircrafts fuel transfer system but don’t perform actual fuel transfer .


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## Shamsher1990

leapx said:


> Another confusing decision.
> Yes, Gripen is getting bigger and heavier. But Gripen users basically have Gripen
> only. While India already has a lot SU30 in service and rafale coming.


Its similar to what China was doing in 60s. J-8 and J-9 projects. Trying to gain mastery of modern aviation while keeping the fighter strength to an acceptable level.


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## randomradio

https://english-manoramaonline-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/english.manoramaonline.com/news/nation/2018/07/12/hal-readies-tejas-sp-10-for-first-flight.amp.html?_gsa=1&amp_js_v=0.1#amp_tf=From %1$s&share=https://english.manoramaonline.com/news/nation/2018/07/12/hal-readies-tejas-sp-10-for-first-flight.html

SP-10 is ready to fly.


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## aman_rai

randomradio said:


> https://english-manoramaonline-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/english.manoramaonline.com/news/nation/2018/07/12/hal-readies-tejas-sp-10-for-first-flight.amp.html?_gsa=1&amp_js_v=0.1#amp_tf=From %1$s&share=https://english.manoramaonline.com/news/nation/2018/07/12/hal-readies-tejas-sp-10-for-first-flight.html
> 
> SP-10 is ready to fly.


Tejas should be handed by the private sector for efficient production


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## Winter_is_coming!

Naval LCA MK1 might not enter in production, but it will complete its objective of testing and certification which will lead to set of technologies being available to India for any other future Naval Aircraft. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1021433007566094336


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## Water Car Engineer



Reactions: Like Like:
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## KapitaanAli

An amazing sight. Naval LCA has no dearth of admirers. May our carriers be populated by NLCA Mk2.



aman_rai0007 said:


> Any updates on sp10
> I saw upto sp14 on various jigs in a 8 months old video on YouTube


In fact, SP21 has been loaded if I'm right. Hopefully we'll get a flurry of launches this FY. SP21 will likely be available before trainers are out.

SP21 after SP16. Gap left for trainers.

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## kinsr

Water Car Engineer said:


>



What a bloody sexy Plane...


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## BON PLAN

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Why?
Indian Navy don't want it !


----------



## Water Car Engineer

BON PLAN said:


> Why?
> Indian Navy don't want it !



Why not? Even if Naval Mark 2 wont make it, it's still a good tech demo for a possible N-AMCA.


----------



## BON PLAN

Water Car Engineer said:


> Why not? Even if Naval Mark 2 wont make it, it's still a good tech demo for a possible N-AMCA.


AMCA will be so different : twin engined, classical wings vs coupound delta.


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## KapitaanAli

BON PLAN said:


> AMCA will be so different : twin engined, classical wings vs coupound delta.


Navy will wholeheartedly take LCA Mk2. All they want is a better engine.

No other qualms about Mk1.


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## Trisonics

BON PLAN said:


> AMCA will be so different : twin engined, classical wings vs coupound delta.


As we have found out, everything about the Naval variant has a steep learning curve. The take-offs, landing, Structure strengthening, landing gear design, arrestor hook, etc. This will be our stepping stone. What we continue to learn on this platform will lead to success either in the MK2 or future aircraft.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

No Indian engine no Indian radar no Indian avionics = not an Indian plane.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Use the ignore option generously.Do not quote the trolls and derail the thread further.


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## Trisonics

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1021758293730054144
Navy LCA deploying it's tailhook.


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## BON PLAN

undertakerwwefan said:


> No Indian engine no Indian radar no Indian avionics = not an Indian plane.


For the engine, it's on the way.

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## Winter_is_coming!

SP-10 first flight completed.

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## KapitaanAli

Winter_is_coming! said:


> SP-10 first flight completed.
> View attachment 488598


This photo quite clearly shows that Tejas is the most industrial looking modern fighter.


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## 1ndy

Winter_is_coming! said:


> SP-10 first flight completed.
> View attachment 488598


RWRs, MAWs slots are clearly visible.


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## aman_rai

Winter_is_coming! said:


> SP-10 first flight completed.
> View attachment 488598


Hal is not efficient...


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## HariPrasad

BON PLAN said:


> Why?
> Indian Navy don't want it !



this was never planned for Indian navy. A plane with higher thrust 110 kn Wet and some 70 Kn dry version was planned. Subsequently, Perhaps they changed the requirement to twine engine fighter.



undertakerwwefan said:


> No Indian engine no Indian radar no Indian avionics = not an Indian plane.



N indian engine, Indian Radar, Indian avionics (Except 3). A very much Indian plane.

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## aman_rai0007

A huge step towards LCA Navy's flight test program came through the first taxi-in engagement with the tail hook. This will pave way for the in-flight engagement as part of carrier compatibility test.






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1863832173711222


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## BON PLAN

aman_rai0007 said:


> A huge step towards LCA Navy's flight test program came through the first taxi-in engagement with the tail hook. This will pave way for the in-flight engagement as part of carrier compatibility test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1863832173711222


As Navy don't want it, the tests will never go to carrier.


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## aman_rai0007

BON PLAN said:


> As Navy don't want it, the tests will never go to carrier.


Yes, you are right... But these tests will be helpful in future aircraft... Or even mk2 which Navy wants


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## KapitaanAli

BON PLAN said:


> As Navy don't want it, the tests will never go to carrier.


NLCA Mk2 is the most sensible option to complement MiG29K. Navy will accept it rather than waiting for a conclusion in the golden tender that's yet to be issued.

All they need is ski-jump take-off at full load out, which even F/A18 can't, since they only claim "significant" load.


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## Laozi

*HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control





Slow takeoff: The development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed.
*
*To prevent time and cost overruns, the IAF will soon have effective control over India’s indigenous LCA programme*

The government is poised to hand over control of the Bengaluru division of State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This is to prevent more time and cost overruns on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. This comes at a particularly crucial time as the next phase of the LCA project, development of the MK2 variant, as well as the country’s next fighter aircraft programme, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), begin to take shape.

“The government has given the go ahead to hand over the entire Bengaluru complex of HAL to the IAF. With this, the fixed wing aircraft division will come under the IAF. The modalities are being worked out,” an official source told this reporter of the process that may take a few months.

*HAL resists*
HAL manufactures and assembles a range of aircraft and helicopters. However, it has faced criticism for its time and cost overruns and lack of professionalism in project execution. HAL has opposed this move for a long time, fearing erosion of its autonomy.

The LCA programme was sanctioned in 1983 and the aircraft made its first flight in 2001. The IAF had signed two contracts with HAL, one for 20 aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration signed on March 31, 2006, to be completed by December 2011, and another for 20 aircraft in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard signed on December 23, 2010, which was to be completed by 2016. It is in the process of ordering 83 jets in the Mk 1A configuration.

The IAF constituted the first LCA squadron with just two aircraft in 2016 and, as of July 2018, has inducted only nine aircraft. Tejas has once again missed the FOC in June and the development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed. With this development, HAL’s aircraft division will be headed by a serving three-star officer or an Air Marshal of the IAF, and effectively give the IAF control over the country’s indigenous LCA project.

In addition, three institutions — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) — which are under the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) are likely to be brought under the direct control of the Chief of the Air Staff. Thus, the entire development cycle of the LCA will have the IAF’s oversight and will ensure timely execution and prevent blame games over delays, the source observed. Details of the specific contours of the move are awaited.

*‘Long overdue’*
“The IAF should have taken over the LCA programme two decades back, but [it is] good it’s happening at least now,” said Air Marshal M. Matheswaran (Retd), who oversaw the IAF’s fighter procurement in the past. He felt that to make a real difference, the IAF should get the entire cycle under its control, from design, standardisation, production and supply chain. Otherwise, just having one officer at the helm will not change things much, he added.

“Production for 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up after FOC clearance by the ADA, for which the current target is December 2018,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha last week.

However, a Defence Ministry official said this is likely to be delayed by another six months as several parameters like gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others, are yet to be validated. The IAF wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.

HAL is setting up a second assembly line to ramp up production from eight to 16 aircraft a year, in addition to outsourcing major modules to private partners.

*Design reboot*
The LCA is powered by an American GE-404 engine, which the IAF has stated is underpowered. This is to be corrected in the LCA-Mk2 which would be a larger aircraft powered by the GE-414 engine producing 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the current engine.

“The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.

To accommodate the larger and more powerful engine, which also needs more fuel, requires a larger wingspan for the aircraft. This calls for a major design and engineering effort.

“There are concerns and challenges but it is doable,” the officer noted.

The first prototype of the Mk2 is expected to make its debut flight in 2022-23, and complete the IOC and FOC approvals in the next five years. The current target is to have the first squadron ready by 2028.

The IAF intends to have several squadrons of the LCA-Mk2 as it has to replace three Mirage squadrons, three Mig-29 squadrons and six Jaguar squadrons. A squadron typically has about 18 aircraft, 16 fighters and two trainers. However, this can vary, depending on the type of aircraft and the necessity


https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ject-to-fly-under-the-iaf/article24603571.ece

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Why bother? Might as well order Gripen to replace MiG-21. Both use America engine anyway. It's not like Tejas is an Indian plane. No. It uses America engine. Prone to sanction.


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## WarKa DaNG

Here comes the SUPPPAAAA DUUUPPPPAAAA TEJAAAAASSSSSSS


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## Imran Khan

s long as its control of indians we are not worry  i will loose my sleep if project gone in hands of Americans Russian Israelis hands

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fitpOsitive

Laozi said:


> *HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slow takeoff: The development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed.
> *
> *To prevent time and cost overruns, the IAF will soon have effective control over India’s indigenous LCA programme*
> 
> The government is poised to hand over control of the Bengaluru division of State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This is to prevent more time and cost overruns on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. This comes at a particularly crucial time as the next phase of the LCA project, development of the MK2 variant, as well as the country’s next fighter aircraft programme, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), begin to take shape.
> 
> “The government has given the go ahead to hand over the entire Bengaluru complex of HAL to the IAF. With this, the fixed wing aircraft division will come under the IAF. The modalities are being worked out,” an official source told this reporter of the process that may take a few months.
> 
> *HAL resists*
> HAL manufactures and assembles a range of aircraft and helicopters. However, it has faced criticism for its time and cost overruns and lack of professionalism in project execution. HAL has opposed this move for a long time, fearing erosion of its autonomy.
> 
> The LCA programme was sanctioned in 1983 and the aircraft made its first flight in 2001. The IAF had signed two contracts with HAL, one for 20 aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration signed on March 31, 2006, to be completed by December 2011, and another for 20 aircraft in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard signed on December 23, 2010, which was to be completed by 2016. It is in the process of ordering 83 jets in the Mk 1A configuration.
> 
> The IAF constituted the first LCA squadron with just two aircraft in 2016 and, as of July 2018, has inducted only nine aircraft. Tejas has once again missed the FOC in June and the development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed. With this development, HAL’s aircraft division will be headed by a serving three-star officer or an Air Marshal of the IAF, and effectively give the IAF control over the country’s indigenous LCA project.
> 
> In addition, three institutions — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) — which are under the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) are likely to be brought under the direct control of the Chief of the Air Staff. Thus, the entire development cycle of the LCA will have the IAF’s oversight and will ensure timely execution and prevent blame games over delays, the source observed. Details of the specific contours of the move are awaited.
> 
> *‘Long overdue’*
> “The IAF should have taken over the LCA programme two decades back, but [it is] good it’s happening at least now,” said Air Marshal M. Matheswaran (Retd), who oversaw the IAF’s fighter procurement in the past. He felt that to make a real difference, the IAF should get the entire cycle under its control, from design, standardisation, production and supply chain. Otherwise, just having one officer at the helm will not change things much, he added.
> 
> “Production for 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up after FOC clearance by the ADA, for which the current target is December 2018,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha last week.
> 
> However, a Defence Ministry official said this is likely to be delayed by another six months as several parameters like gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others, are yet to be validated. The IAF wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.
> 
> HAL is setting up a second assembly line to ramp up production from eight to 16 aircraft a year, in addition to outsourcing major modules to private partners.
> 
> *Design reboot*
> The LCA is powered by an American GE-404 engine, which the IAF has stated is underpowered. This is to be corrected in the LCA-Mk2 which would be a larger aircraft powered by the GE-414 engine producing 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the current engine.
> 
> “The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.
> 
> To accommodate the larger and more powerful engine, which also needs more fuel, requires a larger wingspan for the aircraft. This calls for a major design and engineering effort.
> 
> “There are concerns and challenges but it is doable,” the officer noted.
> 
> The first prototype of the Mk2 is expected to make its debut flight in 2022-23, and complete the IOC and FOC approvals in the next five years. The current target is to have the first squadron ready by 2028.
> 
> The IAF intends to have several squadrons of the LCA-Mk2 as it has to replace three Mirage squadrons, three Mig-29 squadrons and six Jaguar squadrons. A squadron typically has about 18 aircraft, 16 fighters and two trainers. However, this can vary, depending on the type of aircraft and the necessity
> 
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ject-to-fly-under-the-iaf/article24603571.ece


Finally, a logical step.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Haris Mansoor

Laozi said:


> *HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slow takeoff: The development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed.
> *
> *To prevent time and cost overruns, the IAF will soon have effective control over India’s indigenous LCA programme*
> 
> The government is poised to hand over control of the Bengaluru division of State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This is to prevent more time and cost overruns on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. This comes at a particularly crucial time as the next phase of the LCA project, development of the MK2 variant, as well as the country’s next fighter aircraft programme, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), begin to take shape.
> 
> “The government has given the go ahead to hand over the entire Bengaluru complex of HAL to the IAF. With this, the fixed wing aircraft division will come under the IAF. The modalities are being worked out,” an official source told this reporter of the process that may take a few months.
> 
> *HAL resists*
> HAL manufactures and assembles a range of aircraft and helicopters. However, it has faced criticism for its time and cost overruns and lack of professionalism in project execution. HAL has opposed this move for a long time, fearing erosion of its autonomy.
> 
> The LCA programme was sanctioned in 1983 and the aircraft made its first flight in 2001. The IAF had signed two contracts with HAL, one for 20 aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration signed on March 31, 2006, to be completed by December 2011, and another for 20 aircraft in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard signed on December 23, 2010, which was to be completed by 2016. It is in the process of ordering 83 jets in the Mk 1A configuration.
> 
> The IAF constituted the first LCA squadron with just two aircraft in 2016 and, as of July 2018, has inducted only nine aircraft. Tejas has once again missed the FOC in June and the development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed. With this development, HAL’s aircraft division will be headed by a serving three-star officer or an Air Marshal of the IAF, and effectively give the IAF control over the country’s indigenous LCA project.
> 
> In addition, three institutions — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) — which are under the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) are likely to be brought under the direct control of the Chief of the Air Staff. Thus, the entire development cycle of the LCA will have the IAF’s oversight and will ensure timely execution and prevent blame games over delays, the source observed. Details of the specific contours of the move are awaited.
> 
> *‘Long overdue’*
> “The IAF should have taken over the LCA programme two decades back, but [it is] good it’s happening at least now,” said Air Marshal M. Matheswaran (Retd), who oversaw the IAF’s fighter procurement in the past. He felt that to make a real difference, the IAF should get the entire cycle under its control, from design, standardisation, production and supply chain. Otherwise, just having one officer at the helm will not change things much, he added.
> 
> “Production for 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up after FOC clearance by the ADA, for which the current target is December 2018,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha last week.
> 
> However, a Defence Ministry official said this is likely to be delayed by another six months as several parameters like gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others, are yet to be validated. The IAF wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.
> 
> HAL is setting up a second assembly line to ramp up production from eight to 16 aircraft a year, in addition to outsourcing major modules to private partners.
> 
> *Design reboot*
> The LCA is powered by an American GE-404 engine, which the IAF has stated is underpowered. This is to be corrected in the LCA-Mk2 which would be a larger aircraft powered by the GE-414 engine producing 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the current engine.
> 
> “The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.
> 
> To accommodate the larger and more powerful engine, which also needs more fuel, requires a larger wingspan for the aircraft. This calls for a major design and engineering effort.
> 
> “There are concerns and challenges but it is doable,” the officer noted.
> 
> The first prototype of the Mk2 is expected to make its debut flight in 2022-23, and complete the IOC and FOC approvals in the next five years. The current target is to have the first squadron ready by 2028.
> 
> The IAF intends to have several squadrons of the LCA-Mk2 as it has to replace three Mirage squadrons, three Mig-29 squadrons and six Jaguar squadrons. A squadron typically has about 18 aircraft, 16 fighters and two trainers. However, this can vary, depending on the type of aircraft and the necessity
> 
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ject-to-fly-under-the-iaf/article24603571.ece


They should have done it long before.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Windjammer

Laozi said:


> *HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control*
> 
> *Slow takeoff: The development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed.
> *
> *To prevent time and cost overruns, the IAF will soon have effective control over India’s indigenous LCA programme*
> 
> The government is poised to hand over control of the Bengaluru division of State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This is to prevent more time and cost overruns on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project.



Just in the nick of time......give or take 25 years.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Thorough Pro

The whole world would agree but only if you take "sexy" part out 



kinsr said:


> What a bloody sexy Plane...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## kinsr

Thorough Pro said:


> The whole world would agree but only if you take "sexy" part out


Doesn't needs whole world's(read yours) approval for anything. Keep looking at it n burn ... lolz...

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## GodToons

*CSIO develops tech for Tejas’ air-to-air refuelling at night *
CHANDIGARH: The Central Scientific Instruments Organisation .. 


*Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst*

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Science & Technology
23-August, 2018 17:30 IST
*CSIR laboratory to manufacture critical composite air-frame components for LCA Tejas *

Usage of indigenously developed technology lightens air-frame by 20% 

CSIR-National Aerospace Laboratories (CSIR-NAL) has received an order of more than _Rs 100cr_ for delivering critical composite air-frame components to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), for the LCA-Tejas Full Operational Capability (FOC) standard aircraft.

Dr. Harsh Vardhan, Minister, S&T and Vice President, CSIR congratulated the team of CSIR-NAL and said that this is a unique effort and highlights CSIR’s commitment towards the Make in India initiative. “The cutting edge technology is one of the critical technologies that make the LCA a 4th generation fighter aircraft” added Dr. Vardhan.

DG-CSIR, Dr Girish Sahni while congratulating the team at CSIR-NAL stated that the use of this co-curing technology in LCA has resulted in 40% reduction in the part count, 50% reduction in the number of fasteners, and 30% reduction in the assembly time when compared to a conventional metallic air-frame. The usage of composites has led to an overall weight reduction of about 20% in the air-frame.

“It is a matter of pride for the country that LCA’s percentage deployment of composites is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class anywhere in the world and this order of Rs 100 crore plus value is a major achievement for CSIR” said Dr. Sahni.

CSIR-NAL’s collaboration with LCA program started from technology demonstrator (2 aircrafts) to prototype development (5 aircrafts) to limited series production (8 aircrafts) and Initial Operational Capability (IOC) standard production aircrafts (SP1 to SP20). The initial IOC order of 20 sets is nearing completion. The challenges were to develop the co-cured complex components indigenously during the time of technology denials and sanctions from other countries. Moreover, the autoclaves necessary for processing composite materials were also developed indigenously by CSIR-NAL. This homegrown technology developed by CSIR-NAL was used in realizing primary air-frame components of LCA like Fin, Rudder, Wing Spars and Fairings, Centre Fuselage and Main Landing Gear components. 

CSIR-NAL has now further received an order to supply additional 20 sets of parts for FOC standard aircraft (SP21-SP40) at a cost of Rs 100cr plus including development of tooling. CSIR-NAL has identified a private industry, M/s Tata Advanced Materials Limited (TAML), Bengaluru, as a production partner.

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## BON PLAN

undertakerwwefan said:


> Why bother? Might as well order Gripen to replace MiG-21. Both use America engine anyway. It's not like Tejas is an Indian plane. No. It uses America engine. Prone to sanction.


You forget that Kaveri is now on track.



Imran Khan said:


> s long as its control of indians we are not worry  i will loose my sleep if project gone in hands of Americans Russian Israelis hands


You are right.

It will be in better hands if those hands are... french !

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Imran Khan

BON PLAN said:


> You forget that Kaveri is now on track.
> 
> 
> You are right.
> 
> It will be in better hands if those hands are... french !


yeah that will be nightmare for me if french took it


----------



## BON PLAN

Imran Khan said:


> yeah that will be nightmare for me if french took it


Because as a Pakistany you think that in such a case the program will go to success ?


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## Robinhood Pandey

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036928317016788992

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## aman_rai

Robinhood Pandey said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036928317016788992


Atleast some good news...
Waiting for video...


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## SQ8

How things could be unusually different had history been different


----------



## nang2

Oscar said:


> How things could be unusually different had history been different
> View attachment 497110


which year was it?


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## randomradio

nang2 said:


> which year was it?



1994

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## rajiv sharma

* Tejas carrying out mid-air refuelling *

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## Sliver

Oscar said:


> How things could be unusually different had history been different
> View attachment 497110


 This would have been a nightmare scenario for the USA - if China's manufacturing base, India's software base, china + India market were with the Russian MIC. thankfully, China picked Pakistan's side leaving an india sized footprint for Pompeo to land on.


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## SQ8

Sliver said:


> This would have been a nightmare scenario for the USA - if China's manufacturing base, India's software base, china + India market were with the Russian MIC. thankfully, China picked Pakistan's side leaving an india sized footprint for Pompeo to land on.


More importantly, would the LCA then have ended up looking like the JF-17 or J-10?
Would China’s greater indigenous manufacturing resolve have actually made it a successful project rather than the horrendously delayed and confused sponsor project it is?

And finally, would many IAF pilots be still alive instead of risking their lives on increasingly archaic (regaedless of electronic upgrades) platforms?


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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> More importantly, would the LCA then have ended up looking like the JF-17 or J-10?



The LCA design was already frozen years before.



> Would China’s greater indigenous manufacturing resolve have actually made it a successful project rather than the horrendously delayed and confused sponsor project it is?



It wasn't a joint development. The Chinese didn't have the technology we needed at the time. We were looking for a digital FBW.



> And finally, would many IAF pilots be still alive instead of risking their lives on increasingly archaic (regaedless of electronic upgrades) platforms?



The Chinese wouldn't have helped there. We should have taken Dassault's analog FBW offer in 1988. Would have saved many years of flight testing. Instead we lost 6 years.

An early LCA success would have only cancelled the Bison program, and still put the IAF at risk anyway, this time without upgraded Bisons. What really failed the IAF was the failure to have a M-2000 production program in parallel with the MKI, not the LCA.

That 2001 RFI should have translated into a contract by 2005. But then, the IAF got greedy after the Americans offered the AESA with their SH and complicated the procurement process, which became MMRCA. The IAF should have stuck with the M-2000 at the time. They could have been 200 jets stronger, and also transitioned to the Rafale by now.


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## Storm Force

randomradio said:


> The LCA design was already frozen years before.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't a joint development. The Chinese didn't have the technology we needed at the time. We were looking for a digital FBW.
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese wouldn't have helped there. We should have taken Dassault's analog FBW offer in 1988. Would have saved many years of flight testing. Instead we lost 6 years.
> 
> An early LCA success would have only cancelled the Bison program, and still put the IAF at risk anyway, this time without upgraded Bisons. What really failed the IAF was the failure to have a M-2000 production program in parallel with the MKI, not the LCA.
> 
> That 2001 RFI should have translated into a contract by 2005. But then, the IAF got greedy after the Americans offered the AESA with their SH and complicated the procurement process, which became MMRCA. The IAF should have stuck with the M-2000 at the time. They could have been 200 jets stronger, and also transitioned to the Rafale by now.



If ....but... had we this .... could of that.

Yes we have issues but all of them are within Indian capability to over come.

All we need is money and decisive decision making.

Order second batch of rafale
Open private sector involvements in mass manufacture for tejas.
Get outside help on engines technology
Develop amca with world class company in partnership be it dassult Ir Lockheed or sukhoi.

It's all doable 

By 2025 india should have over 70 rafales and over 80 Lca. By 2030 double those nod

It's all doable 

Look how huge the Indian gdp is today compared to 2005


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## Amigator

Robinhood Pandey said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1036928317016788992


I have read in one article that this was "dry test". "Wet test" are still pending, in which fuel is actually injected from tanker to jet.


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## Amigator

Amigator said:


> I have read in one article that this was "dry test". "Wet test" are still pending, in which fuel is actually injected from tanker to jet.


https://sputniknews-com.cdn.ampproj...809061067807275-india-home-grown-fighter-jet/


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## Hindustani78

8 AUG 2018
HAL Chief Flies LCA-Tejas








HAL Chief Flies LCA-Tejas
*Bengaluru, August 08, 2018*: Mr T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL flew the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas from HAL Airport here today. The twin seat variant of LCA (PV5) was piloted by Group Captain KK Venugopal, VM (Retd) HAL’s Chief Test Pilot.

In a thrilling set of manoeuvres,* the aircraft climbed to 30,000 feet and accelerated to supersonic speed of 1.1 Mach.* This was followed by a simulated launch of Beyond Visual Range missile on a target of opportunity, said Mr Raju after the sortie. It is a wonderful flying machine, capable of being the backbone of IAF combat power in the years to come, he adds. 

The pilot demonstrated the prowess of the aircraft to attack targets on ground. An attack on the ground target was carried out by a simulated laser guided bomb. The demonstration of manoeuvring capability of the aircraft in close combat situations is an unique experience to even veteran pilots. The landing was carried out simulating low visibility conditions using the ‘automatic approach’ mode of the aircraft.

In order to ensure the speedy deliveries of LCAs, HAL has ramped up the production rate to meet the requirement of IAF in association with other industrial partners. HAL is in talks with IAF for production of 83 more LCAs with upgraded capabilities known as Tejas Mk 1A. 

Mr Raju reiterated that as one of the biggest aircraft production houses in Asia, HAL is committed to constantly improve its products to meet the national security requirements.




HAL Chief Flies LCA-Tejas


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## punit

BON PLAN said:


> Why?
> Indian Navy don't want it !


1. Single Engine
2. Combat radius
3. Payload.

IN fact except F 35 there is no Single Engine Carrier Plane in operation.



WarKa DaNG said:


> Here comes the SUPPPAAAA DUUUPPPPAAAA TEJAAAAASSSSSSS


it may help.

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## Robinhood Pandey

Amigator said:


> https://sputniknews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/sputniknews.com/amp/asia/201809061067807275-india-home-grown-fighter-jet/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://sputniknews.com/asia/201809061067807275-india-home-grown-fighter-jet/




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1039014106651447296

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## Robinhood Pandey

Amigator said:


> https://sputniknews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/sputniknews.com/amp/asia/201809061067807275-india-home-grown-fighter-jet/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://sputniknews.com/asia/201809061067807275-india-home-grown-fighter-jet/




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1039101172194324481

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer

*CFD analysis for using su30mki as a buddy refuler for LCA






CAD of Tejas with canards - Mark 2 work*


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## Water Car Engineer

SP11

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## MimophantSlayer

*Mohammed Ahmed Al Bowardi Al Falacy, Minister of State for Defence Affairs, United Arab Emirates visiting HAL facilities Bengaluru.*
*












*

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

N Tejas Hook Trials

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## KapitaanAli



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## MimophantSlayer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1060489789546188801

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## Lord Of Gondor

Not a bad week for Defence updates: 
https://english.manoramaonline.com/...aggers-envious-environment-operate-tejas.html
The Video in the article is just epic.The short Take off roll, the steep climb and then turn away to the vast empty blue.

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## MimophantSlayer



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## Lord Of Gondor

https://english.manoramaonline.com/...jas-ready-auto-low-speed-recovery-trials.html
Wow.
Knowledgeable members on BR state that this feature:ALSR, has already been validated!
FOC Dec 2018 could just be achieved on time!

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## kmc_chacko

Lord Of Gondor said:


> https://english.manoramaonline.com/...jas-ready-auto-low-speed-recovery-trials.html
> Wow.
> Knowledgeable members on BR state that this feature:ALSR, has already been validated!
> *FOC Dec 2018* could just be achieved on time!



It will be before January 2019


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## HariPrasad

Lord Of Gondor said:


> https://english.manoramaonline.com/...jas-ready-auto-low-speed-recovery-trials.html
> Wow.
> Knowledgeable members on BR state that this feature:ALSR, has already been validated!
> FOC Dec 2018 could just be achieved on time!



You will see these types of test in ultra modern fighter only. You will never see any Chinese fighter put to such test. They can boast that they operationalize their J series very quickly but to make technically advance fighter like Tejas is not their cup of tea. They can not write the codes of such algorithm. That is why when these planes will face each others, Chines plane shall expose.

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## conworldus

@HairiPrazaad Please, please..... post this on every forum on the Internet. I have been reading about the Tejas since.... like.... cellphones weighed 2 kgs each. Peace...


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## aman_rai

Sp 13




Sp12 and 14




Sp15





FOC may be announced next month

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## TheDarkKnight

HariPrasad said:


> You will see these types of test in ultra modern fighter only. You will never see any Chinese fighter put to such test. They can boast that they operationalize their J series very quickly but to make technically advance fighter like Tejas is not their cup of tea. They can not write the codes of such algorithm. That is why when these planes will face each others, Chines plane shall expose.



Wow this is so impressive ... India is truly a leader in aerospace technology after USA and EU. As you said Chinese are behind, and mind I say Russians too as Chinese mostly copy Russian tech - so India is way ahead and the amount of sophistication that has been brought into Tejas will be a no match for their so called LO aircrafts like j20 and j31. Reason I compare Tejas to chinese LO aircrafts is because Tejas is the smallest fighter jet in the whole world - a truely marevelous engineering achievment - and its RCS most likely is close to chinese LO aircrafts like J20. USAF is lucky to have India as an ally, otherwise F35 could get a run for its money.

I sometimes just wonder why Tejas hasnt been mass produced in 100s, and IAF hasnt used it to claim total regional domination over China and Pak. I think because its too advanced for anything the current adversaries can have at this point or foreseeable future. The USAF also stopped producing F22s as they thought it was too advanced for any of their adversaries. The Americans here grossly overlooked the Tejas tech, and had they properly evaluated the smallest fighter jet Tejas they may have decided agaisnt stopping F22 production, so that USAF pilots can have a fighting chance against a potential Tejas adversary.

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## punit

TheDarkKnight said:


> Wow this is so impressive ... India is truly a leader in aerospace technology after USA and EU. As you said Chinese are behind, and mind I say Russians too as Chinese mostly copy Russian tech - so India is way ahead and the amount of sophistication that has been brought into Tejas will be a no match for their so called LO aircrafts like j20 and j31. Reason I compare Tejas to chinese LO aircradts is because Tejas is the smallest fighter jet in the whole world - a truely marevelous engineering achievment - and its RCS most likely is close to chinese LO aircrafts like J20. USAF is lucky to have India as an ally, otherwise F35 could get a run for its money.
> 
> I sometimes just wonder why Tejas hasnt been mass produced in 100s, and IAF hasnt used it to claim total regional domination over China and Pak. I think because its too advanced for anything the current enemies can have at this point or foreseeable future. The USAF also stopped producing F22s as they thought it was too advanced for any of their adversaries. The Americans here grossly overlooked the Tejas tech, and had they properly evaluated the smallest fighter jet Tejas they may have decided agaisnt stopping F22 production, so that USAF pilots can have a fighting chance against a potential Tejas adversary. But looks like they were too focused on Russia/China, whose tech is garbage.


Calm down..Poor guy was having a fan boy moment..


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## HariPrasad

TheDarkKnight said:


> Wow this is so impressive ... India is truly a leader in aerospace technology after USA and EU. As you said Chinese are behind, and mind I say Russians too as Chinese mostly copy Russian tech - so India is way ahead and the amount of sophistication that has been brought into Tejas will be a no match for their so called LO aircrafts like j20 and j31. Reason I compare Tejas to chinese LO aircrafts is because Tejas is the smallest fighter jet in the whole world - a truely marevelous engineering achievment - and its RCS most likely is close to chinese LO aircrafts like J20. USAF is lucky to have India as an ally, otherwise F35 could get a run for its money.
> 
> I sometimes just wonder why Tejas hasnt been mass produced in 100s, and IAF hasnt used it to claim total regional domination over China and Pak. I think because its too advanced for anything the current enemies can have at this point or foreseeable future. The USAF also stopped producing F22s as they thought it was too advanced for any of their adversaries. The Americans here grossly overlooked the Tejas tech, and had they properly evaluated the smallest fighter jet Tejas they may have decided agaisnt stopping F22 production, so that USAF pilots can have a fighting chance against a potential Tejas adversary.



you can bluff whatever please you. You have got a chinese aircraft so you can give me any reference if any such system has gone into your aircraft or any other chinese aircraft. This algorithm is extremely difficult to realize. When 2 planes fly, nobody can make out the difference between the two but this makes a big difference in real fighting or any emergency situation. Had not such many system gone into tejas, It would have got FOC much earlier. It is a different matter that we never hear any such test or rigorous certification process for chinese aircraft because no such system is ever incorporated in it. They just call their low tech aircraft a competitor of F 22 etc but nobody in the world give them a shit. We started Tejas as a point defense low tech fighter and ultimately made a multi role fighter which can perform swing role operation in a single flight. It will be equiped with technologies like TOP class AESA, EW, State of art BVRS, OBOGS, High angle of attack etc. MK2 shall be absolute top-class multi role fighter in the cost of a small plane. So people are free to bluff anything but we are interested in curving out top defense stuff at a very low cost. The fact of the matter is that no chinese plane has got such sophisticated system and people will see it when both are pitted against each other in a situation where they have to offer their best.

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## conworldus

TheDarkKnight said:


> Wow this is so impressive ... India is truly a leader in aerospace technology after USA and EU. As you said Chinese are behind, and mind I say Russians too as Chinese mostly copy Russian tech - so India is way ahead and the amount of sophistication that has been brought into Tejas will be a no match for their so called LO aircrafts like j20 and j31. Reason I compare Tejas to chinese LO aircrafts is because Tejas is the smallest fighter jet in the whole world - a truely marevelous engineering achievment - and its RCS most likely is close to chinese LO aircrafts like J20. USAF is lucky to have India as an ally, otherwise F35 could get a run for its money.
> 
> I sometimes just wonder why Tejas hasnt been mass produced in 100s, and IAF hasnt used it to claim total regional domination over China and Pak. I think because its too advanced for anything the current enemies can have at this point or foreseeable future. The USAF also stopped producing F22s as they thought it was too advanced for any of their adversaries. The Americans here grossly overlooked the Tejas tech, and had they properly evaluated the smallest fighter jet Tejas they may have decided agaisnt stopping F22 production, so that USAF pilots can have a fighting chance against a potential Tejas adversary.



Love your humor, buddy. Really though, Hindu propaganda notwithstanding, this Mig-21++ (per the words of the Indian Air Force) is the proof that India is not currently capable of producing a modern combat aircraft, even with all the foreign assistance in material, design, components, and all kinds of ToT. India does not face the security threat that China faces and it can procure advanced weaponry from US, Russia, or Europe whenever it can afford. So whenever the Indians finally consider the LCA a failure, they can just buy more Rafale or even the F-35 in a decade or so. This access to advanced weaponry and India's culture of extreme violence are what make India a grave threat no matter how backward they may be.


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## punit

conworldus said:


> Love your humor, buddy. Really though, Hindu propaganda notwithstanding, this Mig-21++ (per the words of the Indian Air Force) is the proof that India is not currently capable of producing a modern combat aircraft, even with all the foreign assistance in material, design, components, and all kinds of ToT. India does not face the security threat that China faces and it can procure advanced weaponry from US, Russia, or Europe whenever it can afford. So whenever the Indians finally consider the LCA a failure, they can just buy more Rafale or even the F-35 in a decade or so. This access to advanced weaponry and India's culture of extreme violence are what make India a grave threat no matter how backward they may be.


Pretty.coming from. Pakistani..Unable to make 100.cc.moped.engjne.

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## HariPrasad

First of all, try to write a correct sentences in English before you enjoy your inferiority complex.


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## MimophantSlayer

KH-2013 Taxying out with symmetric loads..

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## KapitaanAli

SP12 took flight today.

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## Type59

KapitaanAli said:


> SP12 took flight today.


World has moved on. in the 1990s and early 2000s this would have been big news. Your 2000 late.


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## KapitaanAli

Type59 said:


> World has moved on. in the 1990s and early 2000s this would have been big news. Your 2000 late.


Nah. The main adversary has only a few dozen fighters that are more advanced than Mk1. That's what matters.

Take care.

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## punit

KapitaanAli said:


> Nah. The main adversary has only a few dozen fighters that are more advanced than Mk1. That's what matters.
> 
> Take care.


That's the only saving grace. Rest is plane Ddisaster


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## Goku-kun

KapitaanAli said:


> Nah. The main adversary has only a few dozen fighters that are more advanced than Mk1. That's what matters.
> 
> Take care.


not few but many dozen fighters bro and block-3 upcoming which is f-16 block-60 level


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## MimophantSlayer

12th series produced Tejas had the maiden flight today. Flying Daggers are growing in strength day by day..
Jai Hind..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2028077297286708







Type59 said:


> World has moved on. in the 1990s and early 2000s this would have been big news. Your 2000 late.



Meh. 
It's big news for any nation that has actually made a plane from scratch, ones who haven't won't know what that achievement feels like.


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## MimophantSlayer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068771867828207616





SP-12

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## Water Car Engineer



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## HariPrasad

LCA tejas is certified for 100 knot speed. Earlier the same was planned for 120 knot. This is the strength of aircraft. Ability to fly at 100 knot is phenomenal and very few aircraft in the world can do this. if spedd goes bellow 100 knot, software will take over the control of the aircraft stabilize it and give control back to pilot. This test exactly is pending for FOC certification. Nobody will read any such things for substandard Chinese fighters. They are never made to put in such rigorous trials. Nobody will ever hear such tests as a part of FOC for any chinese fighters.

Envelop of tejas opened for 8.5 g with more scope of improvement of opening it further.

What we need now is just few aerodynamic tweaks and some weight reduction. This plane is going to be the most lethal plane in its class. This one is a true multi role fighter with great weight carrying and many state of art goodies.

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## RPK

KH-2018 (LSP-08) taxying out for a test flight in night.

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## BON PLAN

HariPrasad said:


> This plane is going to be the most lethal plane in its class.


a very small class....
JF17. I don't see other so light plane.

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## MimophantSlayer

Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar, Air Officer Commanding in Chief of IAF Eastern Command confirms via tweet that the 9 Tejas fielded during Op. Gaganshakti apart from having superb serviceability had the best range scores.






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070987664155799554
_No.... I was just stating facts... The Tejas has a few teathing problems....Weapon delivery accuracy is thankfully NOT one of them!.. I'm proud to be the oldest serving member of Team Tejas!_


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

BON PLAN said:


> a very small class....
> JF17. I don't see other so light plane.



Gripen.



CyclopS said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068771867828207616
> View attachment 523938
> 
> SP-12



12 planes is barely enough for 1 squadron. By US standard, LCA has yet to achieve IOC because US standard requires a full squadron before a plane can be declared IOC. JF-17 achieved a full squadron by February 2010.


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## MimophantSlayer

undertakerwwefan said:


> Gripen.
> 
> 
> 
> 12 planes is barely enough for 1 squadron. By US standard, LCA has yet to achieve IOC because US standard requires a full squadron before a plane can be declared IOC. JF-17 achieved a full squadron by February 2010.



IOC and FOC for us isn't numbers(quantity) but capability(quality).
We could have easily inducted Tejas in large numbers like pak did with JF-17, before granting IOC or FOC, but IAF has higher standards for its aircrafts and would only accept the best.

Hence, Tejas achieved both IOC-1 & IOC-2 long time back.
Tejas Mk1 is on the cusp of achieving FOC.
As per the very strict QRs of IAF, Tejas needs to achieve certain capabilities before induction and it cannot be deferred to future iterations, which is why even the initial variants of Tejas has an RSS Quadruplex fly by wire and HMD/S whereas JF-17 doesn't and will only get in its Block 3.

I suggest you go through this particular thread itself before prematurely evaluating Tejas.

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## BON PLAN

CyclopS said:


> Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar, Air Officer Commanding in Chief of IAF Eastern Command confirms via tweet that the 9 Tejas fielded during Op. Gaganshakti apart from having superb serviceability had the best range scores.
> View attachment 525229
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070987664155799554
> _No.... I was just stating facts... The Tejas has a few teathing problems....Weapon delivery accuracy is thankfully NOT one of them!.. I'm proud to be the oldest serving member of Team Tejas!_


best range versus what?
Tejas is not know to have a great range as studied as a point defense plane.



undertakerwwefan said:


> Gripen.
> 
> 
> 
> 12 planes is barely enough for 1 squadron. By US standard, LCA has yet to achieve IOC because US standard requires a full squadron before a plane can be declared IOC. JF-17 achieved a full squadron by February 2010.


Gripen C, probably.
Gripen E is heavier.


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## KapitaanAli

BON PLAN said:


> best range versus what?
> Tejas is not know to have a great range as studied as a point defense plane.


Public domain radii of all fighters are a bunch of nonsense, for various reasons.

But the range mentioned here is the bombing range, where Tejas has shown impressive accuracy.


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## MimophantSlayer

*Single Crystal and DS blades for Kaveri.
*

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## Han Patriot

CyclopS said:


> *Single Crystal and DS blades for Kaveri.
> *
> View attachment 528929


There are no cooling orifices on the blades?

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## BringHarmony

Han Patriot said:


> There are no cooling orifices on the blades?


Its not necessary. Here :







Equiaxed, directional solidified and single crystal. 

https://www.machinedesign.com/mechanical/single-crystal-turbine-blades-earn-asme-milestone-status

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## kmc_chacko

CyclopS said:


> *Single Crystal and DS blades for Kaveri.
> *
> View attachment 528929



I have seen few blade castings in my foundry , by any chance is it for . . . . . .

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## aman_rai

Good bit of news to close out the year — LCA Tejas Mk.1 FOC Build Standard documents were officially released to
HAL by DG Aero of DRDO, on 31 Dec 2018. Official FOC announcement is to be on 4 Jan 2019, to coincide with the date of the first flight of the LCA in 2001.

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## MimophantSlayer

aman_rai said:


> Good bit of news to close out the year — LCA Tejas Mk.1 FOC Build Standard documents were officially released to
> HAL by DG Aero of DRDO, on 31 Dec 2018. Official FOC announcement is to be on 4 Jan 2019, to coincide with the date of the first flight of the LCA in 2001.



Bloody hell. 
Now that's pushing it close.
But at the least they got it by December like they said.


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## RPK




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## aman_rai

And they say Tejas is obslate....
I wonder how the perspective change blindly....


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## MimophantSlayer

45 Sqn, the flying daggers is growing strength to strength with the 12th SP in the line up. All goes well, the sqn will operate to its full strength before end of this financial year. However, there are lots of tasks are lined up for the squadron starting from the Aero India in Feb to the Malaysian airshow in March. We are sure, Tejas will touch the sky with all possible glories in the coming days. Wishing the team always, nothing but the best.
#TejasLCA #flyingdaggers #LCATejas





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2091878534239917

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## Abu Zarrar

*HAL yet to build Tejas trainers, not expected before 2021*
Training of pilots to fly the Tejas is now restricted to simulators and a couple of so-called “instrumented aircraft” with the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency.

The Indian Air Force has 11 Tejas fighters built by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and is likely to receive five more by March, but it doesn’t have a single aircraft to train its pilots to fly the warplane.

The two-seater Tejas trainer aircraft are not expected to be delivered before 2021, a senior ministry of defence official said, asking not to be identified because he is not authorised to speak to the media. “The process of building the trainers hasn’t yet started,” he said.

Spokesperson for the Indian Air Force (IAF), Group Captain Anupam Banerjee, declined comment. Queries to HAL went unanswered.

Training of pilots to fly the Tejas is now restricted to simulators and a couple of so-called “instrumented aircraft” with the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), an arm of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), a second defence ministry official said. An instrumented aircraft differs from trainer aircraft. “It is not a standard version of the aircraft. For instance, the instrumentation panel in an instrumented aircraft is not standardised,” a senior IAF officer said on condition of anonymity .

An instrumented aircraft is a prototype and requires a high degree of skill to fly. It is only used to test an aircraft, it is difficult to train new pilots in these jets,” the officer added.

“Pilots have to shuttle between Sulur (in Tamil Nadu) — where the Tejas squadron is based — and Bengaluru to train. Both the simulator and the “instrumented aircraft” are located in Bengaluru. They are the property of the DRDO and IAF can only use the aircraft when they are not being used by the DRDO,” a senior test pilot of the Indian Air Force said, asking not to be identified said, and added, “generally trainers are collated with the squadron.”

Senior HAL officials confirmed that trainer jets for the Tejas aircraft aren’t yet ready. “But we just underline that designs need to be frozen (finalised) before we can start producing the trainers,” one official said.

He added: “We understand the compulsion of the IAF and hope we can arrive at a solution quickly,” the HAL official, who did not want to be named, said. The HAL official also said the state-owned planemaker cannot start a production line without clarity on how many trainer aircraft has to produce and to what specifications.

“The DRDO, which designs the aircraft, did ask for changes. The IAF too changed the specifications. It asked for the four trainer jets under IOC (Initial Operational Clearance) configuration to be capable of refuelling mid-air. But that is because these are already a decade behind in being delivered. It makes sense to get trainers that are capable of refuelling mid-air than taking in trainers without these capabilities and then going for an upgrade,” a second defence ministry official said, explaining the changes in design.

The IAF ordered 20 fighters with Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and another 20 with Final Operational Clearance (FOC). The first contract for 20 jets under IOC configuration was signed in 2006. All 20 fighters including the trainers were to be delivered by 2011. The contract for 20 fighters under the FOC configuration was signed in 2011 with a similar delivery schedule.

Of the 40 aircraft, eight were to be fighters to train pilots. In addition, the IAF will buy another 83 Tejas fighters from HAL. The technical evaluation of the 83 fighters is complete. Much of the price negotiations are also in process,” said a third defence ministry official, who too didn’t want to be identified.

“Fighter flying has a syllabus, which cannot be done on a simulator. How does one supervise the flying of a youngster without flying with him on a trainer. The IAF?is now posting only qualified flight instructors and fight combat leaders to Tejas squadron because we cannot risk young pilots flying the fighters. Also, pilots going on leave or courses need to revalidate themselves when join back the squadron, how can these be done without a trainer?” Air Marshal SBP?Sinha (retd), the former commander of Central Air Command said.

Source:https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...before-2021/story-TeE1inWKEwIlfdDurU4ZmK.html


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## aman_rai

Sunday good news !!

14th series produced Tejas, LA - 5014 had her maiden flight yesterday. The 13th member will follow soon. The competition between the two assembly hangars is intensifying. Competition, in one sense, is a symbol of better future.

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## Deino

ohoh ....  Does not - at least in my ears - very much positive.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686010434187264

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686495555776512

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> ohoh ....  Does not - at least in my ears - very much positive.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686010434187264
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686495555776512


Nothing new actually, a known fact to most of us here.


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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Nothing new actually, a known fact to most of us here.




Yes by most including myself ... but barely acknowledged by most within the Indian community.


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## Nilgiri

Deino said:


> ohoh ....  Does not - at least in my ears - very much positive.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686010434187264
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087686495555776512



Out of interest, how proficient would you say the CAG office people are in aviation matters and terminology?

Do you have any references with previous CAG reports from before (and language used in them) concerning successfully implemented and operational projects in Indian military right now?


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## Han Patriot

Nilgiri said:


> Out of interest, how proficient would you say the CAG office people are in aviation matters and terminology?
> 
> Do you have any references with previous CAG reports from before (and language used in them) concerning successfully implemented and operational projects in Indian military right now?


Here comes the denial mode. 5 4 3 2 1



Deino said:


> Yes by most including myself ... but barely acknowledged by most within the Indian community.


Well, I will call a spade a spade, if the Chinese system sucks, I will say it sucks, like the engines, we can produce them but it sucks compared to American ones, it has lower reliability and endurance. We need to work hard on this. However having an engine even reaching 70% of US capabilities is an achievement itself because it is fully indigenous. No point having a 100% rated engine if we need to import it.

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## KapitaanAli

I don't get it. Which part of the report seems like a bloat on the LCA?

Other than some opinions on the R&D agencies.

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## Nilgiri

KapitaanAli said:


> I don't get it. Which part of the report seems like a bloat on the LCA?
> 
> Other than some opinions on the R&D agencies.



Its funny because these CPC stronk types dont even have an equivalent of CAG....so they do not know really what its function/history is in first place. So they rush to judgement assuming == with another system entirely.

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## randomradio

Deino said:


> Yes by most including myself ... but barely acknowledged by most within the Indian community.



The report is about an incomplete aircraft. You can see it clearly saying in the tweets that it can only perform light strike and interdiction, which means it's referring to the IOC version. So I wouldn't worry much about it. The FOC version will have full combat capability.

Here's the fully weaponised version getting the production nod, which was processed only at the beginning of this month, so no way can it make it into a report with older data.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...version-of-lca-tejas/articleshow/67379924.cms

Even the F-35 has been on the receiving end based on incomplete reports.

Democracy at work here.



Nilgiri said:


> Out of interest, how proficient would you say the CAG office people are in aviation matters and terminology?
> 
> Do you have any references with previous CAG reports from before (and language used in them) concerning successfully implemented and operational projects in Indian military right now?



Except for a few passable mistakes, there's nothing wrong with the report. The only problem is it's the report that is obsolete, relying on information that's no longer relevant.

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## Han Patriot

Nilgiri said:


> Its funny because these CPC stronk types dont even have an equivalent of CAG....so they do not know really what its function/history is in first place. So they rush to judgement assuming == with another system entirely.


China didn't need a CAG to fire incompetent state employees while the dead wood still floats in DRDO even with a CAG. See the irony of things? Talking is one thing, action is another thing.

As for weapons evaluation, we have a review committee reporting to the top brass. if LCA is a Chinese plane, I would still think it's an obsolete plane at most a gen 3+ plane as per your own Aur Marshal's words.


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## Nilgiri

chetan_chpd said:


> Hello guys, is this the correct thread to post something about LCA Tejas history?
> please share the link if you know about a suitable thread...i will shift below post to that location.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *LCA tejas: History: Newspaper clippings*
> 
> January 30, 2019
> 
> Hello guys, I will be showcasing here my old newspaper clipping of HAL LCA 'Tejas'.
> 
> 1. Date: someday between 4 Jan 2001 and 6 June 2002
> Newspaper: Unknown from India
> Language: Marathi
> Translation: (Title) Second test for light combat aircrafts soon
> 
> 
> visit, https://www.chetansindiaspaceflight.com/2019/01/lca-tejas-history-newspaper-clippings.html
> for more data and images...
> 
> 
> View attachment 535883
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I might have some clippings from the Strait Times (Singapore) in English about LCA first flight etc. Its in my parents place (I used them in a school project) so I will have to look when I am down there if I remember

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## Bilal9

CyclopS said:


> 12th series produced Tejas had the maiden flight today. Flying Daggers are growing in strength day by day..
> Jai Hind..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2028077297286708
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meh.
> It's big news for any nation that has actually made a plane from scratch, ones who haven't won't know what that achievement feels like.



Well being nationalistic is one thing, but outright untruths are another. Not everything made in China is a copy.

If one suggests that the JF-17 or even the JL-10 are not made from scratch then that is something....

And try the Xian Y-20 for size sometime...which India will need another twenty years to create....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_Y-20

@Han Patriot @Deino


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## MimophantSlayer

Bilal9 said:


> Well being nationalistic is one thing, but outright untruths are another. Not everything made in China is a copy.
> 
> If one suggests that the JF-17 or even the JL-10 are not made from scratch then that is something....



Since I was clearly referring to pakistan wrt the JF-17, its chinese R&D process and American and Russian influence are well known, there is no "untruth" to that. 









> And try the Xian Y-20 for size sometime...which India will need another twenty years to create....



Probably. 
But what we can safely say is that India will eventually attempt and get a tactical &/or strategic airlifter at some point of time, some posters from other countries bent on scorning our progress otoh......

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## Bilal9

CyclopS said:


> Since I was clearly referring to pakistan wrt the JF-17, its chinese R&D process and American and Russian influence are well known, there is no "untruth" to that.
> 
> View attachment 537543
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably.
> But what we can safely say is that India will eventually attempt and get a tactical &/or strategic airlifter at some point of time, some posters from other countries bent on scorning our progress otoh......



Well - even taking the FC-1 story with a grain of salt and admitting for arguments' sake that it is true (I have seen this 'Izdeliye 33' story from the MiG bureau repeated in multiple places with multiple flavors) - it is also well known that although the wings were well researched, wind-tunnel tested and in an advanced stage of concept development to counter the f-16 the fuselage was a different story. "The FC-1 is not a direct derivative of the Product 33 design, and while the wings may reflect Soviet aerodynamic data, the fuselage and air inlets represent an entirely rather different configuration."

I myself have been an avid observer of Chinese aviation industry in the last decade, with the evolutionary development of the economical F-7PG and BGI models (with double delta wings) and then JL-9 variants from the original early MiG-21 F13 model from the 60's.





Then they updated the F-7BGI with double delta wings to improve slower speed and turning performance. Glass cockpit and PESA radar added.





And then into the radically changed JL-9 and its many slowly improved variants.
*JL-9 (Jianlian 9)*: Initial PLAAF variant with splitter intakes moved to the sides to separate boundary layer as well as addition of indigenous radar.






*JL-9H*: PLANAF carrier-trainer variant, DSI Intake a la JF-17, exhausts/wing area/tails/tailplanes all enlarged and refined with full complement addition of flappery/slattery, under fuselage strakes removed. I believe the wing planform re: AOA (angle of attack) was quite significantly changed as well.















Now tell me how similar does this look like a MiG-21 F13 to you?





So the upshot of all this is - the Chinese take a cost-effective and evolutionary approach to fighter development, equip their own Air Force and also make money by selling it to countries like Bangladesh, Nigeria, Peru, Ecuador etc.*.at a cost of $7 to $8 Million a copy. I believe the LCA costs around $20 million each?*

There is no Indian equivalent. Only costly 'made from scratch' boast platforms, some of which see success, some don't. And incidentally, these platforms all made with majority foreign parts.

Accusing the Chinese of copy-pasting can apply salve to the wound of ineptitude, but should one be happy with this? Spending precious money from the state coffers with nary a concrete result to show.

Although Kurt Tank (of Messerchmitt fame) did develop the Marut fighter for India back in the 1950's - when Chinese aviation industry was even less developed than India. From that point onward most of India's developed fighters could have followed from that example, but solely remained "adopted foreign platforms" or outright purchases, but sadly with none of the evolutionary traits that Chinese aviation industry has shown and had adopted. Let's call a spade a spade, brother, the record could have been better.

@LKJ86 I used your images, @Deino, @Han Patriot your observations...

One more thing - I see the next step in the evolution of this plane to be an offensive platform. Kind of like how the T-50 turned into the FA-50 in Korea.





From left to right: FTC-2000G，JL-10，Yak-130，M-346，T-50，T-X

The JL-9 can climb at a rate of 260m per second. The maximum and cruise speed of the aircraft are 2,450 km per hour (Just under Mach 2) and 1,960 km per hour, respectively. The range is 2,500km and the service ceiling is 16,000m.

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## aman_rai

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2133125530115217





Already 3 jets delivered in January...
Confident that remaining 2 jets will be delivered by march

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## MimophantSlayer

Bilal9 said:


> Well - even taking the FC-1 story with a grain of salt and admitting for arguments' sake that it is true (I have seen this 'Izdeliye 33' story from the MiG bureau repeated in multiple places with multiple flavors)



It really doesn't matter what "you have seen"; if it looks like a goat, bleats like a goat and acts like a goat, it's a goat.

Regardless of the not so radically different end result, JF-17's origin is undeniable, no matter how much one wants to deny it.



> it is also well known that although the wings were well researched, wind-tunnel tested and in an advanced stage of concept development to counter the f-16 the fuselage was a different story. "The FC-1 is not a direct derivative of the Product 33 design, and while the wings may reflect Soviet aerodynamic data, the fuselage and air inlets represent an entirely rather different configuration."
> 
> I myself have been an avid observer of Chinese aviation industry in the last decade, with the evolutionary development of the economical F-7PG and BGI models (with double delta wings) and then JL-9 variants from the original early MiG-21 F13 model from the 60's.
> 
> Then they updated the F-7BGI with double delta wings to improve slower speed and turning performance. Glass cockpit and PESA radar added.
> 
> And then into the radically changed JL-9 and its many slowly improved variants.
> JL-9 (Jianlian 9): Initial PLAAF variant with splitter intakes moved to the sides to separate boundary layer as well as addition of indigenous radar.
> 
> 
> JL-9H: PLANAF carrier-trainer variant, DSI Intake a la JF-17, exhausts/wing area/tails/tailplanes all enlarged and refined with full complement addition of flappery/slattery, under fuselage strakes removed. I believe the wing planform re: AOA (angle of attack) was quite significantly changed as well.



Thanks for the schooling but all I heard was, without the MiG-21 & MiG-33 there would be no JL-9 & JF-17.



> Now tell me how similar does this look like a MiG-21 F13 to you?



Except for the canted cockpit and inlet design, pretty much the same.








> So the upshot of all this is - the Chinese take a cost-effective and evolutionary approach to fighter development,



What I guage from the growth of the chinese aviation industry is, if you want to keep your fighter aircrafts numbers up while simultaneously looking to develop your Aerospace industry, have access to disgustingly large amounts of state money.

Chinese took the easier route, which allows them to induct fighters in numbers while learning some things slowly.
While this method keeps the deterrence up at regular levels and pumps more ACs into their airforce in the short term, it's costly over all, as they were properly able to develop something like a J-10 only after out spending on copies of Mig-21s, Flankers, Tu-16s, etc.

What India did cost IAF a few squadrons but is more cost effective and holistic as it attempted and succeeded in developing a platform to not just be self sufficient from the get go at fighter development but at making a competent fighter aircraft in numbers.
We hope to not pay large sums of money to the Russians to buy their designs to mass produce.
And likewise we have designed the AMCA on our own and this was made possible only because we chose to do the Tejas from the ground up.



> equip their own Air Force and also make money by selling it to countries like Bangladesh, Nigeria, Peru, Ecuador etc...



Like the JF-17?
Clearly the PLAAF is inducting those in droves.



> at a cost of $7 to $8 Million a copy
> I believe the LCA costs around $20 million each?



Of course it is.
Tejas' subsystems are world class, chosen after a thorough competitive bidding between leaders of fighter aircraft tech.

Also, you comparing the cost of a primarily LIFT aircraft to that of a modern multirole fighter is both disingenuous and resorting to false equivalency.



> There is no Indian equivalent.



Correct, there is no Indian equivalent as both Marut and Tejas are standalone platforms and not copies.



> Only costly 'made from scratch' boast platforms, some of which see success, some don't.



Marut was inducted and so is Tejas, I don't know what quantifies as "success" if that doesn't.
As for being "costly", not true. Explained below.



> And incidentally, these platforms all made with majority foreign parts.



True.
Which are being replaced every year with indigenous ones.



> Accusing the Chinese of copy-pasting can apply salve to the wound of ineptitude, but should one be happy with this? Spending precious money from the state coffers with nary a concrete result to show.



Accusing?
Like you said, let's call a spade a spade.
A copy is a copy, is a copy.

As for precious monies.
I suggest you look at the total cost of the Tejas program, which comes to around north of a billion dollars, that is far-far-far less than most modern fighter aircrafts out there, in fact criminally less.
The chinese *spent absurd amounts of money* for the chinese analogues based on the tot they got from the Russians, we otoh *spent time *to make our own new aircraft.

While I understand the need for you to just brush past the Tejas development process to confirm your own bias, do realize that the Tejas is inducted with a completely normal fighter aircraft timeframe and if that ain't concrete who knows what is.







> Although Kurt Tank (of Messerchmitt fame) did develop the Marut fighter for India back in the 1950's - when Chinese aviation industry was even less developed than India.



True.
However china also had & has more money than India which allowed it to engage in costlier practices.



> From that point onward most of India's developed fighters could have followed from that example, but solely remained "adopted foreign platforms" or outright purchases,



We'd rather buy large numbers of competent fighters and develop only one fighter aircraft from the ground up and become independent later on than make several copied ones at inflated prices with nigh negligible difference between them and the original with very little scope of learning.

Also, I am sorry but most of chinese fighters are the "adopted foreign platforms", ALL Indian ACs otoh have been completely new, from the scratch systems.



> but sadly with none of the evolutionary traits that Chinese aviation industry has shown and had adopted.



Evolutionary? Really?
They basically undertook small changes on already available platforms that were R&Ded beforehand by someone else.

Evolutionary would be a wholesome and cost effective approach through undertaking a completely new platform to develop an Aerospace industry and not just populating your air force.
Almost every country that has R&Ded a fourth generation fighter aircraft has done it like India has.



> Let's call a spade a spade, brother, the record could have been better.



With the resources that were provided to the relevant agencies, it is but better, you not choosing to see it is not really an argument.

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## Lord Of Gondor

*Long Picture Post Warning*
Okay so two more to go(One each from Tejas Div SP16 and A/C Div SP 15) to fully equip "The Flying Daggers" with Fighters(Trainers numbering 04 will join later)
Unfortunately not been able to get the LA 5014 image yet, So I will update them at a later time if free.
Images courtesy Tejas FB page/Anantha Krishnan/Deb Rana/ADA
Squadron 45 "The Flying Daggers"




Motto: "Our Mission: Invincibility"
LA 5001




LA 5002




LA 5003




LA 5004

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## Lord Of Gondor

LA 5005(First from the A/C Div) 




LA 5006




LA 5007




LA 5008




LA 5009





LA 5010




LA 5011




LA 5012




LA 5013

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## Water Car Engineer

*RFI for Mark 2 Modules Outted






CAD*

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## KapitaanAli

Firing R73:

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## Han Patriot

Water Car Engineer said:


> *RFI for Mark 2 Modules Outted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAD*


So they are copying J-10 and adding a canard?


----------



## Deino

chetan_chpd said:


> as far as chit chat goes...J-10 is a copy of Israeli Lavi they say...



Yes for sure, but only for those stupid guys who cannot - or do not want - to take care of the differences. Or they are at the same level calling an A320 a B737 copy, but we should leave this stupid discussion.

By the way, did the Tejas already arrive at Aero India 2019?


----------



## Deino

chetan_chpd said:


> i have seen this image somewhere in this forum only...not sure of its authenticity but seems rather different finding asian people in Israeli defense installation, right? *anyway lets not get deviated from this thread's topic...*
> View attachment 540292



Yes, but again this MUST be added: A design influenced, sharing a similar design or concept is not a clone or copy. Therefore I'm always most annoyed by such stupid claims. No-one denies that there were connections, influence and even consultation, but just compare the sire, the arrangement of wing and canards, they are not a copy; period.

But indeed ... back to the Tejas.


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## LKJ86

chetan_chpd said:


> i have seen this image somewhere in this forum only...not sure of its authenticity but seems rather different finding asian people in Israeli defense installation, right? *anyway lets not get deviated from this thread's topic...*
> View attachment 540292


There was a picture of PLAAF and F-22.






PLAAF and JAS-39

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## Han Patriot

chetan_chpd said:


> obviously not...canards were not "invented" during J-10 design, many modern fighters(Eurofighter, Rafale) and old (Saab Viggen) etc. have those...
> 
> as far as chit chat goes...J-10 is a copy of Israeli Lavi they say...


Exactly my point, Indians bhais were saying we copied Lavi due to the canards, and were dissing canards as inferior. Chill, just a joke ok Bhai?


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## LKJ86

Han Patriot said:


> Exactly my point, Indians bhais were saying we copied Lavi due to the canards, and were dissing canards as inferior. Chill, just a joke ok Bhai?


If J-10 doesn't have canards, it would be said to copy F-16.


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## Water Car Engineer

*Derby, R-73, Brahmos NG, Supersonic tank*

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## Robinhood Pandey



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## 1ndy

Robinhood Pandey said:


> View attachment 540515


IRST?


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## Robinhood Pandey

1ndy said:


> IRST?


yes

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## randomradio

11 hardpoints on the new MCA/MWF. 9+2.

And the whole she-bang. IMA architecture, MAWS, IRST, LWS, AESA, EW suite etc.

The MCA will be able to carry at least 2 Brahmos-NG.


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## Deino

Does the Naval Tejas Mk. 2 now has a tail????

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## ranadd



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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL MWF - Tejas Mark 2*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098101809300803584

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## Robinhood Pandey

Deino said:


> Does the Naval Tejas Mk. 2 now has a tail????
> 
> View attachment 540583




Yes!!!

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## LKJ86



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## MimophantSlayer

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 540843
> 
> View attachment 540840
> 
> View attachment 540841



Sweet.






Deltas ftw.

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## Water Car Engineer

From AI19


















*Sport Super Sonic Tejas Variant - Advanced Trainer Role*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Tejas Modules Suppliers - Increased Private Sector Participation *

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## KapitaanAli

Rafael's offer for Tejas:

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## Water Car Engineer

*Advanced Tejas Trainer "SPORT"*


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## Ali_Baba

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Advanced Tejas Trainer "SPORT"*



Nice cockpit MFD, looks very Gripen NG like.


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## Christina Chan

Deino said:


> Does the Naval Tejas Mk. 2 now has a tail????
> 
> View attachment 540583


Last time I heard the Indian navy rejected the Tejas.


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## aman_rai

Christina Chan said:


> Last time I heard the Indian navy rejected the Tejas.


It's only yesterday you became a member of PDF...
So please go ahead and read something before trolling


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## Water Car Engineer




----------



## ziaulislam

Robinhood Pandey said:


> yes
> 
> View attachment 540562


Why call it tejas..i would call it a new name it seems much different

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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> Why call it tejas..i would call it a new name it seems much different



It will. Tejas is like 6.5 tons. MWF is like 17. Different class for sure.


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## proud_indian

Water Car Engineer said:


> It will. Tejas is like 6.5 tons. MWF is like 17. Different class for sure.



Bro you are comparing Empty weight Tejas to MTOW MWF!


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## Water Car Engineer

proud_indian said:


> Bro you are comparing Empty weight Tejas to MTOW MWF!



My bad bro. You wanna give right stats. I just remember that from Twitter feed.


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## Water Car Engineer

MWF TEJAS MARK2 CGI by Harshal Pal

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## KapitaanAli

SP16 has flown.

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1039152079468679168

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## HydNizam

*LCA Tejas, INS Kadmatt to take part in Malaysia’s LIMA 2019*


Tejas, India’s indigenous supersonic Light Combat Aircraft and the world’s lightest supersonic fighter which has already joined the Indian Air Force (IAF) and received the Final Operational Clearance on February 20, 2019, during Aero India 2019 at Bengaluru’s Yelahanka Air Force Station, will first time take part in aerial displays during the five-day Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA) 2019 in Malaysia. 

Two Tejas fighters will perform with Indonesia’s Jupiter Aerobatic Team flying the KT-1B Woong Bee aircraft and the Royal Malaysian Air Force in the show. Along with the Tejas, Indian Navy’s Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Corvette INS Kadmatt will also take part in LIMA 2019. INS Kadmatt is the second ship of Project 28 (P28) class and was commissioned into the Indian Navy on January 7, 2016. It is armed to fight in Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare conditions.

The IAF had inaugurated the Tejas into its Number 45 Squadron called Flying Daggers on July 1, 2016. Before the Tejas, the Flying Daggers used to fly the MiG-21 Bison fighters, one of which shot down a much-advanced F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force on February 27, 2019, when the enemy aircraft tried to enter the Indian airspace over Jammu and Kashmir.

The first advance Fly-by-wire (FBW) fighter designed, developed and manufactured by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Being a 4th Plus generation fighter it has a glass cockpit with Satellite aided Inertial Navigation System, can fire Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, bombs and precision-guided munitions and can be refuelled mid-air.


https://www.newdelhitimes.com/lca-tejas-ins-kadmatt-to-take-part-in-malaysias-lima-2019/

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110093017291980801
=========================







Two Tejas head to Malaysia

===============================


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109131979809787905

















Arrived

Looks like production batch models, not prototypes.

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## KapitaanAli

Yes, they're series production aircrafts.


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## aman_rai

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110093017291980801
> =========================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Tejas head to Malaysia
> 
> ===============================
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109131979809787905
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrived
> 
> Looks like production batch models, not prototypes.


SP 09 and SP 10

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110381336164859904

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## Skull and Bones

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110381336164859904



Finally some pace into the project.

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110376879934988288

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## marcos98

Wonderfully captured.

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## KapitaanAli



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## dilpakistani

Is JFT also participating ?


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## Water Car Engineer

dilpakistani said:


> Is JFT also participating ?



No. But I think the bird is in their program though, could be wrong.


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## KapitaanAli

There's a poetic shot in this amateur shaky video of the Tejas touching the Suryan with glory:


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## KapitaanAli

True to its name.


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## KapitaanAli




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## randomradio

Water Car Engineer said:


> My bad bro. You wanna give right stats. I just remember that from Twitter feed.



LCA
Empty: 6-6.5T
MTOW = 13.5T

MWF
Empty: 7-7.5T
MTOW = 17.5T


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## Water Car Engineer

Tejas LIFT cockpit for 4.5+-5th gen training

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## KapitaanAli



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## Placemat

Tejas seems like a mean fighting machine.

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## Ali_Baba

Water Car Engineer said:


> Tejas LIFT cockpit for 4.5+-5th gen training




I have said this before, the Machine Machine Interface(MMI) on the Tejas SPORT is quite impressive and a big step up from both the Tejas and "anything" India can get from Russia ( where Russian's do not believe in easy to use MMI for anything, let alone fighter aircraft !! The Russians believe in making things difficult, and that showing you can overcome that difficult as a sign of their prowess(if you worked with Russians, you will know what i mean !!!) )).

I wonder how far the JF17 Block 3 MMI has come along, China has had time to develop systems for the FC31(where we saw some of the MMI at the airshow) and the J10C and J20. I can't wait to see the single MFD display!

*J31 Cockpit*

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## KapitaanAli




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## Water Car Engineer

To be used in advanced Tejas marks and AMCA

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## Water Car Engineer

lca af mark1a







lca n mark 2










lca af mark 2

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## Aryeih Leib

Water Car Engineer said:


> lca af mark1a
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> lca n mark 2
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> lca af mark 2


Rafale's cousin


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## Water Car Engineer



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## SrNair

Water Car Engineer said:


>



LCA pgm is really a successful one .
Once that Mk 1A finished we will get Mk2 .



Water Car Engineer said:


> lca af mark1a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lca n mark 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lca af mark 2



I hope MWF will be easy because all they are going to do the LCA to MWF upgradation


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## graphican

Ronnie k said:


> Rafale's cousin


You surely made many of us laugh.

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## KapitaanAli



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## Aryeih Leib

Sir that wasn't meant to be a joke maybe i am wrong but I am gere to learn new stuff and all that [emoji846]


graphican said:


> You surely made many of us laugh.


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## GriffinsRule

Nice display video. The aircraft seems to handle well. However one thing that caught my eye is that the top of the pilot's helmet seems to be higher than the top most part of the ejection seat, which would of course result in fatal injuries in case of an ejection. Is this right or maybe part of an optical illusion? Are there other pictures of that show this more clearly?


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## Keysersoze

GriffinsRule said:


> Nice display video. The aircraft seems to handle well. However one thing that caught my eye is that the top of the pilot's helmet seems to be higher than the top most part of the ejection seat, which would of course result in fatal injuries in case of an ejection. Is this right or maybe part of an optical illusion? Are there other pictures of that show this more clearly?
> 
> View attachment 551755


I am wondering if they have fixed the issue with the ejection seat that meant people with too large feet couldn't use the ejection system.


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## sathya

Keysersoze said:


> I am wondering if they have fixed the issue with the ejection seat that meant people with too large feet couldn't use the ejection system.



Didn't we ground the testing for 6 months until it was rectified ?


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## Lord Of Gondor

GriffinsRule said:


> Are there other pictures of that show this more clearly?

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## Ali_Baba

I have to say, the general build quality of the Tejas is very poor. Quite suprised, given how much experience that HAL has. I wonder how long the airframes will last relative to its paper specification of flying hours?

It is an ugly looking mongrel for sure!!

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## KapitaanAli

You've to specify if you're looking at prototypes or LSP or SP.

I guess some will simply remain forever oblivious to aircraft development.

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## KapitaanAli



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## marcos98



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## Super Falcon

Frankly apart from speaking as a pakistani tejas is only good for Circus called airshows

Reason why ISRAEL US and FRANCE keep draging its development too keep milking indian cow for as long as tejas iRand D alive

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## Rajeev_Anand

Super Falcon said:


> Frankly apart from speaking as a pakistani tejas is only good for Circus called airshows
> 
> Reason why ISRAEL US and FRANCE keep draging its development too keep milking indian cow for as long as tejas iRand D alive


But it misses it's counter JF-17 very badly in the air shows. That too when JF 17 is showing its prowess all around the world but mysteriously it doesnt turn up where Tejas is flying. I heard Pakistan had to pay hefty amount at Bahrain for not participating even after confirmation.


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## Water Car Engineer




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## CrazyZ

The wing shape looks weird and ugly. India should have just copied the mirage 2000.


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## ziaulislam

Ronnie k said:


> Rafale's cousin


If IAF is serious theh should not do this BS gain and sign for gripen


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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> If IAF is serious theh should not do this BS gain and sign for gripen



It was considered, a process was started, and then it was discarded.

The choice was between getting Gripen MII by 2025 followed by Rafale MII after 2030 in two separate tender processes, or get both Rafale and MWF by 2025 because only 1 tender is necessary. The choice became quite obvious.

Not to mention, the MWF avionics configuration is superior to the Gripen E. GaN radar, dual channel IRST etc.

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## Biplab

CrazyZ said:


> The wing shape looks weird and ugly. India should have just copied the mirage 2000.


Aircrafts are not design for fashion show.

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1121076980340781057

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## Dark Lord Forever

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1121076980340781057


didn't indian navy reject teja for forign fighter? what is purpose if it is rejected. stupid indian logic.

*mark my words teja was, is and always will be a failure.*

bye.

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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> It was considered, a process was started, and then it was discarded.
> 
> The choice was between getting Gripen MII by 2025 followed by Rafale MII after 2030 in two separate tender processes, or get both Rafale and MWF by 2025 because only 1 tender is necessary. The choice became quite obvious.
> 
> Not to mention, the MWF avionics configuration is superior to the Gripen E. GaN radar, dual channel IRST etc.


What if by 2025 LCA new aka MCa is not ready ...IAF is no match against PLAAF and even has no superiority over pakistan because its squardons have diminished just to 30(including 8squadron of mig21) ifHAL fails IAF will fall behind even PAF in squardon size by 2025

Any logical person would sign for ready made project be it gripen c/ng/f16 or f18 immediately so that delivery can start in 12-18 months ..it can wait for 2025 it cant even wait a day more
Su30 wont cut it too large and too maintenance intensive to generate high sorties

The choice is obvious you can't take risks on this..what if IAF/PLAAF go to war...IAF will be slaughtered



Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1121076980340781057


Navy again evaluating LCA ?

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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> What if by 2025 LCA new aka MCa is not ready ...IAF is no match against PLAAF and even has no superiority over pakistan because its squardons have diminished just to 30(including 8squadron of mig21) ifHAL fails IAF will fall behind even PAF in squardon size by 2025
> 
> Any logical person would sign for ready made project be it gripen c/ng/f16 or f18 immediately so that delivery can start in 12-18 months ..it can wait for 2025 it cant even wait a day more



MCA/MWF has to come in only by 2030, not 2025. In the meantime, there will be Rafales. A second order of 36 will be placed by 2020-21. MCA and the jet from the new MMRCA tender will see simultaneous induction well after 2025.

Yes, there is the fear of the IAF falling short in squadron strength even compared to PAF, but the quality of aircraft more than makes up for the difference.

Between now and 2025, the IAF will see the induction of 111 LCAs and 72 Rafales. And there will be an order for 21 more Mig-29s and 18 more MKIs at the minimum during this time. That takes us to 222 new jets before 2025. It's barely enough, but that's a massive number, enough to replace all the remaining Mig-21s and Mig-27s on a one to one basis. That's 222 jets without the MCA and MMRCA coming in.

IAF will be about 700 jets by then. And by 2027, the IN will be worth more than 100 jets as well. Furthermore, with the induction of 150+ dedicated attack helicopters and about 200+ UCAVs along with as many as 10 regiments of S-400 by 2027, it will free up a lot of fighter jets from CAS and air defence duties. Overall, the IAF will be many, many times stronger than they are today.



> Su30 wont cut it too large and too maintenance intensive to generate high sorties



It can do 3 sorties a day, more than enough for a heavy aircraft that can stay in the air for hours with a large missile load.



> The choice is obvious you can't take risks on this..what if IAF/PLAAF go to war...IAF will be slaughtered



No, the IAF are not really worried about the PLAAF. They are yet to technologically match up to the IAF today. On top of that the geography in Tibet is entirely to the IAF's advantage. The PLAAF have to fly with a 40% payload cut due to the altitude of the Tibetan air fields. So their Flankers are like Mig-21s.



> Navy again evaluating LCA ?



Lot of misinformation on this forum. The navy never stopped evaluating LCA. What they rejected was the LCA Mk1 powered by the F404, which was well-known for nearly a decade now. It's merely a TD. The IN have set their sights on the N-MCA/MWF, powered by the F414, perhaps the higher rated Enhanced F414. A new aircraft is being designed based on the LCA.


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## Tejas Spokesman

ziaulislam said:


> What if by 2025 LCA new aka MCa is not ready ...IAF is no match against PLAAF and even has no superiority over pakistan because its squardons have diminished just to 30(including 8squadron of mig21) ifHAL fails IAF will fall behind even PAF in squardon size by 2025


What matters is the number of 4th gen combat jets.
India now has 419 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has only 186 or so i.e. India has a 2.25:1 advantage.
Also PAF is losing squadron strength too as 3 none Mirage squadrons and 1 F-7P squadron will be retired in 2-3 years


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## ziaulislam

Tejas Spokseman said:


> What matters is the number of 4th gen combat jets.
> India now has 419 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has only 186 or so i.e. India has a 2.25:1 advantage.
> Also PAF is losing squadron strength too as 3 none Mirage squadrons and 1 F-7P squadron will be retired in 2-3 years


Yes, which is nearly not enough against Pakistan. You are going to dominate an opponent with merely 2:1 or 3:1 ratio on their home tarrif? Doesn't work.

Forget about PLAAF there isnt even any competition

PAF will continue to add 1sq/year (16 aircrafts ) of jf17 replacing all f7s this year, mirages in next 2 years, PGs till 2025 and Rose mirages till 2030 assuming f16s are continuously blocked

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## Tejas Spokesman

ziaulislam said:


> Yes, which is nearly not enough against Pakistan. You are going to dominate an opponent with merely 2:1 or 3:1 ratio on their home tarrif? Doesn't work.
> 
> Forget about PLAAF there isnt even any competition
> 
> PAF will continue to add 1sq/year (16 aircrafts ) of jf17 replacing all f7s this year, mirages in next 2 years, PGs till 2025 and Rose mirages till 2030 assuming f16s are continuously blocked


IAF is also adding 1+ squadron a year. More than PAF.
The ratio on western front in 1971 was just 1.9:1 and yet we prevailed


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## ziaulislam

Tejas Spokseman said:


> IAF is also adding 1+ squadron a year. More than PAF.
> The ratio on western front in 1971 was just 1.9:1 and yet we prevailed


IAF is losing more than its gaining squardons..
But if IAF is okay with having less aircrafts than PLAAF j10 alone than who am i to argue we are happy with IAF current pace..hence PAF ability to escalate and respond that we saw

you are completely wrong on 1971 loses and aircraft ratio but that is different topic

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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> IAF is losing more than its gaining squardons..
> But if IAF is okay with having less aircrafts than PLAAF j10 alone than who am i to argue we are happy with IAF current pace..hence PAF ability to escalate and respond that we saw
> 
> you are completely wrong on 1971 loses and aircraft ratio but that is different topic



Our current squadron strength is a problem only if both Pakistan and China attack us together.

If it's only Pakistan or only China, we have more than enough.


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## Sully3

randomradio said:


> Our current squadron strength is a problem only if both Pakistan and China attack us together.
> 
> If it's only Pakistan or only China, we have more than enough.


the chinese will smoke you as of right now


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## Tejas Spokesman

ziaulislam said:


> IAF is losing more than its gaining squardons..
> But if IAF is okay with having less aircrafts than PLAAF j10 alone than who am i to argue we are happy with IAF current pace..hence PAF ability to escalate and respond that we saw
> 
> you are completely wrong on 1971 loses and aircraft ratio but that is different topic


So is PAF.
PAF will get only 1 full JFT Blk3 squadron by 2022 but pull out the 4 squadrons from service.
PLAAF is barely a threat to us.
Which is why only 3 of our 4th gen fighter squadrons are on China front, rest are all kept for Pakistan.
As for 71, PAF sorties loss rate was twice of IAF's but that is another topic.


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## Aryan0395

ziaulislam said:


> Yes, which is nearly not enough against Pakistan. You are going to dominate an opponent with merely 2:1 or 3:1 ratio on their home tarrif? Doesn't work.
> 
> Forget about PLAAF there isnt even any competition


If IAF doesnt have enough aircrafts to dominate PAF in their own airspace then similarly PLAAF doesnt either to do the same with IAF. IAF wont attack against PLAAF instead it will defend. China's number coupled with topography doesnt allow it to dominate Indian airspace.

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## randomradio

Aryan0395 said:


> If IAF doesnt have enough aircrafts to dominate PAF in their own airspace then similarly PLAAF doesnt either to do the same with IAF. IAF wont attack against PLAAF instead it will defend. China's number coupled with topography doesnt allow it to dominate Indian airspace.



As of today, defending our airspace is our only option in a two front war on the Chinese border. But this is not desirable. However we will soon operate a lot of attack helicopters and UCAVs for supporting our troops, which is a good thing.


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## Aryan0395

randomradio said:


> But this is not desirable.


Actually i believe that developing attacking capabilities vis-a-vis China is quite difficult because of Geography. 
Tibetan Plateau separating India from mainland China is big nothing and our jets will have to go in too deep to hit anything meaningful. 
Doesn't seem reasonable.
But ofc, hitting temporary and smaller bases and infra is desirable, for that platform already exists with IAF.

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## randomradio

Aryan0395 said:


> Actually i believe that developing attacking capabilities vis-a-vis China is quite difficult because of Geography.
> Tibetan Plateau separating India from mainland China is big nothing and our jets will have to go in too deep to hit anything meaningful.
> Doesn't seem reasonable.
> But ofc, hitting temporary and smaller bases and infra is desirable, for that platform already exists with IAF.



That's not correct. Any India China war will see massive supply lines from the frontier to all the way deep within China. We need to hit everything. This is called Deep Air Interdiction. There will be plenty of targets that we will need to hit, including assembly areas.

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## Han Patriot

randomradio said:


> That's not correct. Any India China war will see massive supply lines from the frontier to all the way deep within China. We need to hit everything. This is called Deep Air Interdiction. There will be plenty of targets that we will need to hit, including assembly areas.


Such confident Indians, I think you need to check our gen 4 aircraft inventory and the fact that we manufacture almost the entire aircraft ourselves.


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## ziaulislam

Han Patriot said:


> Such confident Indians, I think you need to check our gen 4 aircraft inventory and the fact that we manufacture almost the entire aircraft ourselves.


360(mig 29, mirage, su30) vs 1600(j20,su27,j11,j16,j10,j8)

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## Arulmozhi Varman

ziaulislam said:


> 360(mig 29, mirage, su30) vs 1600(j20,su27,j11,j16,j10,j8)



You do understand Su27, J11 and J16 are the one and same right?


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## ziaulislam

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> You do understand Su27, J11 and J16 are the one and same right?


Yes and no...i am going through what the PLAAF designated them 
Su27 pure russian
J11 chinse avionics version 
J16 variation being more multirole and modication for carrier role

I hope you knew that they are not the same....just because they look similar

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## Arulmozhi Varman

ziaulislam said:


> Yes and no...i am going through what the PLAAF designated them
> Su27 pure russian
> J11 chinse avionics version
> J16 variation being more multirole and modication for carrier role
> 
> I hope you knew that they are not the same....just because they look similar



Yes and No. J16 is Su27 variant with Chinese Engine. They have stopped production due to issues with the engine or it being underpowered. J15 is the carrier variant, again Su33. 

Yes whatever may the Chinese may designate it, its the same platform. J8, 7 is the simple Mig21 version. In terms of 4th gen they have around 380 Su27's, Some 300 J10's and 20 odd J20's.

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## Armchair

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Yes and No. J16 is Su27 variant with Chinese Engine. They have stopped production due to issues with the engine or it being underpowered. J15 is the carrier variant, again Su33.
> 
> Yes whatever may the Chinese may designate it, its the same platform. J8, 7 is the simple Mig21 version. In terms of 4th gen they have around 380 Su27's, Some 300 J10's and 20 odd J20's.



Whatever helps you sleep at night. I thought Indians were good with numbers? Seems another let down.

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## ziaulislam

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Yes and No. J16 is Su27 variant with Chinese Engine. They have stopped production due to issues with the engine or it being underpowered. J15 is the carrier variant, again Su33.
> 
> Yes whatever may the Chinese may designate it, its the same platform. J8, 7 is the simple Mig21 version. In terms of 4th gen they have around 380 Su27's, Some 300 J10's and 20 odd J20's.


Delusions 
According to air flight global they have 400 local and 150(with new orders) russian flankers
This no. Is also underestimated if going by their current regiments
Stating they only have 300 j10 is also underestimation but withouy new data i will not contradict you here j

Jh7 is whole new design witb modern avionics flight control and fly by wire..



Armchair said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night. I thought Indians were good with numbers? Seems another let down.


They werent good with no. Till AIM120 and sd10s were fired at them

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Armchair said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night. I thought Indians were good with numbers? Seems another let down.



I never disputed Indian Air Force's numbers. That's a response to someone with 1600 4th gen aircraft in Chinese inventory which is wrong info until unless you consider Mig 21 and Su7 variants as 4th gen,



ziaulislam said:


> Delusions
> According to air flight global they have 400 local and 150(with new orders) russian flankers
> This no. Is also underestimated if going by their current regiments
> Stating they only have 300 j10 is also underestimation but withouy new data i will not contradict you here j
> 
> Jh7 is whole new design witb modern avionics flight control and fly by wire..
> 
> 
> They werent good with no. Till AIM120 and sd10s were fired at them



I am speaking with the data I have. I cannot speculate on numbers here when you or me are privy to the data.


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## ziaulislam

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> I never disputed Indian Air Force's numbers. That's a response to someone with 1600 4th gen aircraft in Chinese inventory which is wrong info until unless you consider Mig 21 and Su7 variants as 4th gen,
> 
> 
> 
> I am speaking with the data I have. I cannot speculate on numbers here when you or me are privy to the data.


Airflight global is data

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## RPK



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## Han Patriot

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Yes and No. J16 is Su27 variant with Chinese Engine. They have stopped production due to issues with the engine or it being underpowered. J15 is the carrier variant, again Su33.
> 
> Yes whatever may the Chinese may designate it, its the same platform. J8, 7 is the simple Mig21 version. In terms of 4th gen they have around 380 Su27's, Some 300 J10's and 20 odd J20's.


According to official Chinese statements, we have 1000+ gen 4 fighters J-11, J-10, SU-30MKK, J-16, J-20, etc.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Han Patriot said:


> According to official Chinese statements, we have 1000+ gen 4 fighters J-11, J-10, SU-30MKK, J-16, J-20, etc.


You shud give us J 20 and Type 055 DDGs


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## Han Patriot

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> You shud give us J 20 and Type 055 DDGs


We will always be there for you my friend. India until today don't even dare attack after you shot down their plane. They may shout and brag, you know it's just hot air.

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## barora

Han Patriot said:


> We will always be there for you my friend. India until today don't even dare attack after you shot down their plane. They may shout and brag, you know it's just hot air.


But you guys didn't support them in their greatest hour of need in 1972.

But yes you would sell them your cool new weapons.


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## Han Patriot

barora said:


> But you guys didn't support them in their greatest hour of need in 1972.
> 
> But yes you would sell them your cool new weapons.


I guess we were in a lot of turmoil bck then. I always wondered why two nuclear superpowers did nothing as we slaughtered the weak jawans in 62. Lol


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## Arulmozhi Varman

Han Patriot said:


> According to official Chinese statements, we have 1000+ gen 4 fighters J-11, J-10, SU-30MKK, J-16, J-20, etc.



I dont think Chinese government gives any numbers on the number of aircrafts they have. If they did, please share. I will change my statement.


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## barora

Han Patriot said:


> I guess we were in a lot of turmoil bck then. I always wondered why two nuclear superpowers did nothing as we slaughtered the weak jawans in 62. Lol


Yes you did that and no one came for help, thanks for supporting my point that there are no brothers or friends in geo politics. 
No one will come to your help for anything else but their benefits. In this case sell you weapons.

The ultimate looser are India and Pakistan, while China marches on with great growth.


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## Han Patriot

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> I dont think Chinese government gives any numbers on the number of aircrafts they have. If they did, please share. I will change my statement.


They will never give the exact figure, but reported in Chinese paper as 1000+. But of course you can choose not to believe it.



barora said:


> Yes you did that and no one came for help, thanks for supporting my point that there are no brothers or friends in geo politics.
> No one will come to your help for anything else but their benefits. In this case sell you weapons.
> 
> The ultimate looser are India and Pakistan, while China marches on with great growth.


Well unless we want a nuclear war, I don't think India not Pakistan will have another major war, we can see this from Indian reaction recently. Just some skirmish or border hit and run.

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## JohnWick

KapitaanAli said:


> View attachment 549930
> View attachment 549931
> View attachment 549932
> View attachment 549933
> View attachment 549934
> 
> 
> True to its name.


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## Water Car Engineer

RPK said:


>



Getting closer to the arrestor hook landing.

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## aliaselin

ziaulislam said:


> 360(mig 29, mirage, su30) vs 1600(j20,su27,j11,j16,j10,j8)


> 1000 not including J8


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## aman_rai

*HAL Doubles LCA Tejas Production Capacity, SU-30 MKI Repair And Overhaul Capability Enhanced*

*Replying to a question in the Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence, Shripad Naik has informed that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has doubled its manufacturing capability of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft from 8 to 16 per annum.

Production of 83 Tejas LCA-MK1A and 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) has been prioritised by the NDA government at the Centre, he said.

HAL has also enhanced its repair and overhaul (ROH) capability of the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI aircraft along with expediting the integration of the air variant of BrahMos supersonic missiles to the frontline fighter at its Nashik unit.*

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## Keysersoze

aman_rai said:


> *HAL Doubles LCA Tejas Production Capacity, SU-30 MKI Repair And Overhaul Capability Enhanced*
> 
> *Replying to a question in the Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence, Shripad Naik has informed that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has doubled its manufacturing capability of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft from 8 to 16 per annum.*
> 
> *Production of 83 Tejas LCA-MK1A and 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) has been prioritised by the NDA government at the Centre, he said.*
> 
> *HAL has also enhanced its repair and overhaul (ROH) capability of the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI aircraft along with expediting the integration of the air variant of BrahMos supersonic missiles to the frontline fighter at its Nashik unit.*


Firstly you have to cite your source.

Secondly you can't produce it if it hasn't even been ordered yet......


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## aman_rai

Keysersoze said:


> Firstly you have to cite your source.
> 
> Secondly you can't produce it if it hasn't even been ordered yet......


FYI... 40 Tejas has already been ordered and as per the article order of 83 more is on the top priority of the govt right now

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## Keysersoze

aman_rai said:


> FYI... 40 Tejas has already been ordered and as per the article order of 83 more is on the top priority of the govt right now


Yes I know the 40 order has been in place quite some years now..... And its been years now so top priority is bit funny really....

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## aman_rai

Keysersoze said:


> Yes I know the 40 order has been in place quite some years now..... And its been years now so top priority is bit funny really....


The remaining 83 order book is top priority...
Maybe in next 2 months the order will be placed officially... Hence HAL has ramped up production


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## Keysersoze

aman_rai said:


> The remaining 83 order book is top priority...
> Maybe in next 2 months the order will be placed officially... Hence HAL has ramped up production


It was "top priority" 3 years ago lol. But hey carry on. The Tejas is the gift that keeps on giving......


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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> It was "top priority" 3 years ago lol. But hey carry on. The Tejas is the gift that keeps on giving......



HAL is already ordering it's subsystems like AESA, etc. There are a lot of programs in the back log that will be pushed, Mark1A is one of them. The production line wont go empty after 40 orders.

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## Keysersoze

Water Car Engineer said:


> HAL is already ordering it's subsystems like AESA, etc. There are a lot of programs in the back log that will be pushed, Mark1A is one of them. The production line wont go empty after 40 orders.


Fantastic! Is that order been placed yet?........thought not.......I am wondering what system will have the longest delay time. We should have a sweepstake.

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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> Fantastic! Is that order been placed yet?........thought not.......I am wondering what system will have the longest delay time. We should have a sweepstake.



We've seen several orders go through without production, industry in place due longer than Mark1A recently. It's a safe bet Mark1A will go through. Tejas has production and industry behind it, it wont be idle after 40 orders. The requirement is there, infrastructure there, industry there. There are other orders in the pipe line that dont have any of what Tejas has on the ground which I also think will get orders. Some of which was Apache, Chinook, K9 arty, Dhansuh, M777, Rudra, etc. are examples of orders that was placed without nothing on the ground, longer wait time.

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## Keysersoze

Water Car Engineer said:


> We've seen several orders go through without production, industry in place due longer than Mark1A recently. It's a safe bet Mark1A will go through. Tejas has production and industry behind it, it wont be idle after 40 orders. The requirement is there, infrastructure there, industry there.


Yes yes yes let me know when that happens. As always there's always "Going to be" or "Going to happen" I said 4 years earlier this year. 

Why don't we we wait a while see what happens.


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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> Yes yes yes let me know when that happens. As always there's always "Going to be" or "Going to happen" I said 4 years earlier this year.
> 
> Why don't we we wait a while see what happens.
> View attachment 570764




I have also read the same thing for K9 thunder, M777, Dhanush, etc. orders. They're in production as well.

Im going on the simple fact all is in place to not have further orders.


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## Keysersoze

Water Car Engineer said:


> I have also read the same thing for K9 thunder, M777, Dhanush, etc. orders. They're in production as well.
> 
> Im going on the simple fact all is in place to not have further orders.


Well the artillery orders were on hold since the 1980's......lol So standard is apparently 30 years or so.


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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> Well the artillery orders were on hold since the 1980's......lol So standard is apparently 30 years or so.



90s, yes, but recent governments are pushing these programs through. A lot of the purchases going on now are back logged orders due a while ago. Moving quick, production plants, etc. coming up. MK1A is a part of the next wave orders guaranteed to get orders. Too much investment by gov company, industry is in place. Production has to go on.


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## Novice09

Keysersoze said:


> Firstly you have to cite your source.
> 
> Secondly you can't produce it if it hasn't even been ordered yet......



When you have your own jet... you don't need a LOoOOOongg period to... evaluate and negotiate... have you heard about INR 200 crore anti tank missile deal with Russia... Or something like... PURCHASE UNDER EMERGENCY CLAUSE... 



aman_rai said:


> FYI... 40 Tejas has already been ordered and as per the article order of 83 more is on the top priority of the govt right now



Well the number of Tejas MK1 ORDERED is 40... 32 built (including 16 prototypes)... Just remember... IF mk1A is not ready (including a favorable price)... further MK1 would be ordered... in FOC configration... AND believe me current government in HEAVILY backing DOMESTIC PRODUCTS...



Water Car Engineer said:


> 90s, yes, but recent governments are pushing these programs through. A lot of the purchases going on now are back logged orders due a while ago. Moving quick, production plants, etc. coming up. MK1A is a part of the next wave orders guaranteed to get orders. Too much investment by gov company, industry is in place. Production has to go on.



I think @Keysersoze is living in past... On one hand we Indians are amazed and happy by the way Modi government is breaking and abolishing the INDIAN BUREAUCRATIC RED TAPE... FORCEFUL VRS to non performers SARKARI BABUS... and this guy is stuck in 2014... UPA aka SCAMGRESS ERA...

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## Keysersoze

Novice09 said:


> I think @Keysersoze is living in past... On one hand we Indians are amazed and happy by the way Modi government is breaking and abolishing the INDIAN BUREAUCRATIC RED TAPE... FORCEFUL VRS to non performers SARKARI BABUS... and this guy is stuck in 2014... UPA aka SCAMGRESS ERA...


No No I still live in the present. I laugh daily at the delusion of people like you. That you are suckered in by the cult of personality so so Easily (Shows weakness of character) That you can't see the obvious corruption and game playing. That you think delay after delay is acceptable. People like you keep Pakistan safe.

Anyway 30 years later and still no order for MK1A lol

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## Novice09

Keysersoze said:


> No No I still live in the present. I laugh daily at the delusion of people like you. That you are suckered in by the cult of personality so so Easily (Shows weakness of character) That you can't see the obvious corruption and game playing. That you think delay after delay is acceptable. People like you keep Pakistan safe.
> 
> Anyway 30 years later and still no order for MK1A lol



A FABRICATED LIE MINTING MACHINE...

If you feel that everything is same in India as it was in scamgress era... good for India...

In the meantime... India and Indians will keep progressing under the leadership of Modi G...

I can recall when... production targets were set for Tejas and fools were laughing... 30 years... blah blah blah... and now we have achieved 18 jets per year target... ON TIME...


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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> Anyway 30 years later and still no order for MK1A lol




30 years ago there was no MK1A, just barely 3. Again, use some logic, too much investment is in place for orders to not go through, plus current government, plus falling sqd requirement.


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## Keysersoze

Water Car Engineer said:


> 30 years ago there was no MK1A, just barely 3. Again, use some logic, too much investment is in place for orders to not go through, plus current government, plus falling sqd requirement.


Look, I mock because you and your associate are just the latest in a long line of "going to be" types that have appeared on fora like this. The simple fact is that this project would have been cancelled in any other nation. The fact that your press keeps waffling on about how it is Indigenous (probably why they haven't cancelled it yet) despite it being mostly imported. I mock because the excuses are pitiful.



Novice09 said:


> A FABRICATED LIE MINTING MACHINE...
> 
> If you feel that everything is same in India as it was in scamgress era... good for India...
> 
> In the meantime... India and Indians will keep progressing under the leadership of Modi G...
> 
> I can recall when... production targets were set for Tejas and fools were laughing... 30 years... blah blah blah... and now we have achieved 18 jets per year target... ON TIME...


You really are special needs aren't you lol 

You haven't achieved anything because despite 30 years you have exactly 1 squadron of planes. you haven't completed anything.

Modi has had 5 years and with a little corruption got some Rafales.


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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> Look, I mock because you and your associate are just the latest in a long line of "going to be" types that have appeared on fora like this. The simple fact is that this project would have been cancelled in any other nation. The fact that your press keeps waffling on about how it is Indigenous (probably why they haven't cancelled it yet) despite it being mostly imported. I mock because the excuses are pitiful.




Look, like I said I can tell you realistically which program, which labs, etc. have problems, but Tejas right now there is too much invested in it for it to be cancelled. FOC, infrastructure, industry ecosystem around the production, industry around the subsystems/future subsystem, government support, decreasing sqd requirement, etc. are there. If you asked about Tejas program when I first joined this forum, I would've gave you a different response. There was a period where I thought it should be shelved as well, but not anymore.

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## kmc_chacko

Novice09 said:


> W
> I think @Keysersoze is living in past... On one hand we Indians are amazed and happy by the way Modi government is breaking and abolishing the INDIAN BUREAUCRATIC RED TAPE... FORCEFUL VRS to non performers SARKARI BABUS... and this guy is stuck in 2014... UPA aka SCAMGRESS ERA...



True and fact is there is amazing difference between UPA under MMS to NDA under NaMo.

We use to run behind BEML for orders, but now under MII projects, BEML is willing to give up its hard-line stance on many clauses.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Look, like I said I can tell you realistically which program, which labs, etc. have problems, but Tejas right now there is too much invested in it for it to be cancelled. FOC, infrastructure, industry ecosystem around the production, industry around the subsystems/future subsystem, government support, decreasing sqd requirement, etc. are there. If you asked about Tejas program when I first joined this forum, I would've gave you a different response. There was a period where I thought it should be shelved as well, but not anymore.



Ground realities are different from overviews, let them live in their dream world.


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## Novice09

kmc_chacko said:


> True and fact is there is amazing difference between UPA under MMS to NDA under NaMo.
> 
> We use to run behind BEML for orders, but now under MII projects, BEML is willing to give up its hard-line stance on many clauses.
> 
> Ground realities are different from overviews, let them live in their dream world.



Honestly speaking... I avoid trolls on this forum (which are high in numbers)... specially the ones who use old links and info to belittle India... Modi's win could be a HINDU UPRISING but the truth is that this happens due to delivery on ground on various fronts...

Now, come back to the point... As per my info... HAL will surely get more orders for Tejas and MK1A is taking shape and trails will start ON TIME... Plus, IAF is ready to induct more MK1 if there is any delay as it has been clearly conveyed to them that MiG 21 needs to be replaced ASAP...
What really surprises me is that from out of no where F-18 comes into the discussion... US has clearly said to some Indian official to BUY American Jet (MANDATORY)... if S 400 decision is not changed... ELSE...

@Keysersoze THINK that Indian establishments (sarkari) are still in those days when a person with POLITICAL CONNECTIONS will head them... will enjoy the benefits and once the tenure is over next one with POLITICAL CONNECTIONS will replace him...

Mr. @Keysersoze I would recommend you to study a little bit about Indian Banking sector... NPA... BAD LOANS... and cleaning done by Modi government... PNB, SBI, BOB and Yes Bank are classic example of rotten system which was there under scamgress...

You can ask your army-men about the changed attitude of IA on LOC and in Kashmir... battle is going on and claims counter claims will keep coming... like as per my source... around 15 Pak soldiers died on LOC in last week... but as per Pakistan 10 soldiers in a different sector...

Things have changed drastically in India and the process is ON... list is long... we can discuss on your area of interest... In a mannered way with *Latest *proofs...

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## kmc_chacko

Novice09 said:


> Honestly speaking... I avoid trolls on this forum (which are high in numbers)... specially the ones who use old links and info to belittle India... Modi's win could be a HINDU UPRISING but the truth is that this happens due to delivery on ground on various fronts...
> 
> Now, come back to the point... As per my info... HAL will surely get more orders for Tejas and MK1A is taking shape and trails will start ON TIME... Plus, IAF is ready to induct more MK1 if there is any delay as it has been clearly conveyed to them that MiG 21 needs to be replaced ASAP...
> What really surprises me is that from out of no where F-18 comes into the discussion... US has clearly said to some Indian official to BUY American Jet (MANDATORY)... if S 400 decision is not changed... ELSE...



I once suggest a member not fall into trolls trap and Mods promptly deleted saying "its not related to topic" and I understood this forum is no more old PDF. 

I have reasons to believe that HAL is transferring technology to Private companies for fastening Tejas production and concentrating on future versions. 

with regards to US jets, i feel possibilities are slim considering Indians buying S-400s.


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## aliaselin

Indian has imported T700 or T800 level of composite carbon fibers from China? Used by LCA or rockets？


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## letsrock

aliaselin said:


> View attachment 571260
> Indian has imported T700 or T800 level of composite carbon fibers from China? Used by LCA or rockets？


Could it be bullet proof jackets ? I saw them tom tomming how they can indigenously make bullet proof jackets/


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## aliaselin

letsrock said:


> Could it be bullet proof jackets ? I saw them tom tomming how they can indigenously make bullet proof jackets/


Well, I don't know if bullet proof jackets need this level of carbon fiber. Generally, T800 is used as space material and or in aircraft.


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## Deino

By the way, ... any thoughts on this one?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154948669117833217

I must admit in the following posts I had quite a nasty discussion with a hyper-sensible fan-boy but in the end no-one was able to explain how realistic this "stealthy LCA which is not related to the AMCA" is.


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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> By the way, ... any thoughts on this one?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154948669117833217
> 
> I must admit in the following posts I had quite a nasty discussion with a hyper-sensible fan-boy but in the end no-one was able to explain how realistic this "stealthy LCA which is not related to the AMCA" is.




They already have a limited amount of resources to work with I can't see why bother. AMCA[Navy, iaf], MWF[NAVY, IAF], Mark1A, SPORT, AURA, etc. Unless they give some of these programs to parallel private sector lead integrators, dont see much happening.


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## Deino

Water Car Engineer said:


> They already have a limited amount of resources to work with I can't see why bother. AMCA[Navy, iaf], MWF[NAVY, IAF], Mark1A, SPORT, AURA, etc. Unless they give some of these programs to parallel private sector lead integrators, dont see much happening.




That was more or less exactly my reply ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155358482025066496


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## KapitaanAli

Got to be AURA. Likely calling it Mk2 because of the smaller sized prototype, which is yet to fly btw.


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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> That was more or less exactly my reply ..
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155358482025066496




Offshoots of LCA are a good thing, but they are going to put all eggs in HALs basket I see no hope. Having one or two of these programs for the likes of TATA, Reliance, L&T, Adanis, etc is a game changer.


----------



## KapitaanAli

NLCA demonstrates arrested landing:








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172501168741707776

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## halupridol

LCA- Lamba Chutiya Aircraft

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## Amigator

Chalo acha hai. Kbhi na kbhi to Air Force or navy main shamil ho hi jae ga. Us waqt tak JF 17 III ki 5 squadrons bhi a jaen gi


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## KapitaanAli

NLCA does another arrested landing:

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## Amigator

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA does another arrested landing:
> View attachment 579252


And this will continue for another decade

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## BON PLAN

Amigator said:


> And this will continue for another decade

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## BON PLAN

Amigator said:


> And this will continue for another decade


At least they will not have to redesign the arrested hook like LM with F35C !!! not so bad.

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## Amigator

It's not tried on an actual deck of an aircraft carrier. Maybe some bad angle halts development and asj for an update.


BON PLAN said:


> At least they will not have to redesign the arrested hook like LM with F35C !!! not so bad.


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## koolzberg



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## KapitaanAli

Arrested Landing, better video:

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## KapitaanAli

Some info on Indian and overseas LRUs on the Tejas:

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## GriffinsRule

KapitaanAli said:


> Some info on Indian and overseas LRUs on the Tejas:
> View attachment 580077



Next time Indians talk about how indigenous LCA is ... refer to this board.
72 domestic vs 87 foreign suppliers

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## koolzberg

GriffinsRule said:


> Next time Indians talk about how indigenous LCA is ... refer to this board.
> 72 domestic vs 87 foreign suppliers
> 
> View attachment 580127


Welcome to the world of globalization!!!


----------



## KapitaanAli

GriffinsRule said:


> Next time Indians talk about how indigenous LCA is ... refer to this board.
> 72 domestic vs 87 foreign suppliers
> 
> View attachment 580127


Why did you feel a need to crop it? To leave out HAL and PSUs that contribute the lion's share?

210 Indian LRUs and 138 overseas. Not only that, do you really think aircraft design and production is just bunching up LRUs? It's not even half the story.

Well, what would people from your side know...


----------



## GriffinsRule

KapitaanAli said:


> Why did you feel a need to crop it? To leave out HAL and PSUs that contribute the lion's share?
> 
> 210 Indian LRUs and 138 overseas. Not only that, do you really think aircraft design and production is just bunching up LRUs? It's not even half the story.
> 
> Well, what would people from your side know...



You mean this?? 27 Indian suppliers vs 49 foreign ones?? haha

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## KapitaanAli

GriffinsRule said:


> You mean this?? 27 Indian suppliers vs 49 foreign ones?? haha
> 
> View attachment 580147


Dude. Count the LRUs, not number of suppliers. HAL singlehandedly makes 100, in their five divisions.

You should be arguing that the number of LRUs don't matter and it's the nature of the LRU that matters. And after that, somebody will post the famous Gripen blueprint to teach you there's much to fighter jets than simple counting.


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## monitor

GriffinsRule said:


> Next time Indians talk about how indigenous LCA is ... refer to this board.
> 72 domestic vs 87 foreign suppliers
> 
> View attachment 580127


Same question can be ask for JF-17 too . how many parts are manufacture in Pakistan Versus imported from China and assemble in Pakistan .

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## Haris Ali2140

monitor said:


> Same question can be ask for JF-17 too . how many parts are manufacture in Pakistan Versus imported from China and assemble in Pakistan .


That's what Joint Venture means.


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## KapitaanAli

monitor said:


> Same question can be ask for JF-17 too . how many parts are manufacture in Pakistan Versus imported from China and assemble in Pakistan .


There's no comparison really. Pakistan will take many more decades to be capable enough to undertake an indigenous design.

But we can compare Su30 MKI and JF17 production. Technologically, it's not a pretty picture for Pak there either. But business venture wise and even strategically to an extent, they've done a commendable job.


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## Dazzler

KapitaanAli said:


> There's no comparison really. Pakistan will take many more decades to be capable enough to undertake an indigenous design.
> 
> But we can compare Su30 MKI and JF17 production. Technologically, it's not a pretty picture for Pak there either. But business venture wise and even strategically to an extent, they've done a commendable job.



LCA comprises more imported components than MKI. And it was a Dassault design for HAL. You will find more on this in this very thread. Do some searching.


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> LCA comprises more important components than MKI. And it was a Dassault design for HAL. You will find more on this in this very thread. Do some searching.



You dont even know the design agency yet talk.


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> You dont even know the design agency yet talk.



Really? The same design agency could not produce a freaking nose cone for the aircraft right and had to import from Chobam?


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## Haris Ali2140

*Now, India ready to export fighter aircraft, Asian countries want to buy Tejas: Rajnath Singh*

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on Thursday said many countries in the South East Asian region have expressed their willingness to purchase Tejas aircraft, India’s indigenously-built light combat aircraft. Rajnath Singh, who became the first defence minister to fly Tejas today, said he chose to fly Tejas because it is made indigenously.

Speaking about his experience of flying the Tejas aircraft, Rajanath Singh, “The fight was very smooth and comfortable. I was thrilled.” Rajnath Singh also congratulated the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the organisation the built Tejas along with DRDO and some other agencies.

“We have reached a level where we can now export fighter planes across the world,” Rajnath Singh said after the flight. In a tweet, Rajnath Singh said, “Flying on Tejas, an indigenous light combat aircraft from Bengaluru’s HAL Airport was an amazing and exhilarating experience. Tejas is a multi-role fighter with several critical capabilities.

It is meant to strengthen India’s air defence capabilities.” Wearing a G suit, Rajnath Singh buckled himself in the seat behind the pilot in the aircraft. He was accompanied by Air-Vice Marshal N Tiwari, who is also the Project Director, National Flight Test Centre, ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) in Bengaluru.

The IAF has already inducted a batch of Tejas aircraft. The naval version of the LCA is in development stage.Last Friday in Goa, Tejas had successfully carried out an “arrested landing”, a key performance, demonstrating its ability to land on board an aircraft carrier, making it a major milestone in development of the naval variant of the fighter jet.

Initially, the IAF had placed an order with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for 40 Tejas aircraft. Last year, the IAF issued the request for proposal (RFP) to HAL for the procurement of another batch of 83 Tejas at a cost of over Rs 50,000 crore.

The Tejas is an indigenous light weight, multi role supersonic aircraft developed in both fighter and trainer versions. Advanced materials like composites are used in the manufacture of the Tejas to reduce weight and increase the component life.
The Tejas is designed to carry a veritable plethora of air-to-air, air-to- surface, precision guided and standoff weaponry.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/now-india-ready-to-...an-countries-want-to-buy-tejas-rajnath-singh/ .


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## KapitaanAli

SP21, FOC config:

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Really? The same design agency could not produce a freaking nose cone for the aircraft right and had to import from Chobam?



Yet again old news. You dont know the difference between its production and design agency. Next.


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## Water Car Engineer

KapitaanAli said:


> SP21, FOC config:
> View attachment 580331









First FOC model out in two months.

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## Water Car Engineer

NLCA Hook Landing

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## Tejas Spokesman

OBOGs on Tejas will be game changer.


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## Water Car Engineer

Naval Tejas Mark 2 - Bigger in Size has an addition of stablizers

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## ziaulislam

Water Car Engineer said:


> Naval Tejas Mark 2 - Bigger in Size has an addition of stablizers


Delta with a tail?


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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> Delta with a tail?



Yeah - IAF and IN designs are diverging














IN










IAF

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## Flight of falcon

Would you guys believe I was 10 years old when the work on this aircraft started. 

Not a single unit is serving at the front line. 

I just turned 40.

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## KapitaanAli

Flight of falcon said:


> Would you guys believe I was 10 years old when the work on this aircraft started.
> 
> Not a single unit is serving at the front line.
> 
> I just turned 40.


30 years is a short time to develop a modern aeronautical R&D from scratch, through sanctions. It's not like any other country has done it during that ~time, sans India and earlier China.

It's a sad story that LCA was denied the opportunity to replace MiG21. But now the program is mature enough that everyone's confident its versions will replace three to four types. A positive side effect from IAF preventing mass induction of the base LCA just to replace/augment MiG21.

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## Water Car Engineer

*LCA Mark 1 --> LCA Mark 2 --> MWF*

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## Ali_Baba

The addition of the canard tells you how wrong the design of the LCA is to begin with, and why the IAF is having it rammed down their throats as hard as both the Indian Goverment and HAL can manage it !!!

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## KapitaanAli

Ali_Baba said:


> The addition of the canard tells you how wrong the design of the LCA is to begin with, and why the IAF is having it rammed down their throats as hard as both the Indian Goverment and HAL can manage it !!!


Canards because Mk2 is longer and heavier. Mk1 was wind tunnel tested with canards and then dropped.

Mk1 had to be pushed down the throat because of changing goal posts and IAF's desire for Mk1A specs, especially AESA.


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## KapitaanAli

*First full cycle indigenous demonstration of technologies required for aircraft carrier operation of fighter aircraft was achieved last afternoon. LCA Naval Prototype NP2 launched from the ramp at 16:21 and trapped at 16:31 at INS Hansa.*

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA:

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## KapitaanAli



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## KapitaanAli



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## KapitaanAli



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## polanski

It's okay to learn how make a fighter jet but if you can clean up the mess. As a beginner, India should have partnered with a global organization to jointly produce a opertional fighter jet. India started with the Ruski junk Su-30MKI then built another messy Tejas. 
What on earth Indian Air Force signed up for HAL Tejas. 
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/10/28/hal-tejas-light-combat-aircraft/

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## The Eagle

So MK2 is going to be mainstay or other version will continue developing?


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## Water Car Engineer

The Eagle said:


> *So MK2 is going to be mainstay or* other version will continue developing?



As of now, yes.

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## The Eagle

Water Car Engineer said:


> As of now, yes.



MK2 is the version, will adopted by both services (Air & Naval). Whats latest on development? In-fact there were talks about new weapon acquisition while French OEMs were also supporting in frame dynamics etc? if I am not wrong; development is frozen as we aren't seeing much.


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## Water Car Engineer

The Eagle said:


> MK2 is the version, will adopted by both services (Air & Naval). Whats latest on development? In-fact there were talks about new weapon acquisition while French OEMs were also supporting in frame dynamics etc? if I am not wrong; development is frozen as we aren't seeing much.



French, Euros arent supporting the design like in Mark 1 back in the day, it's all done by ADA. Design is frozen for IAF version, not sure about IN. Both designs are very different. Last I've heard, this was months ago, mental cutting for the prototypes was about to start for IAF Mark 2.



The Eagle said:


> So MK2 is going to be mainstay or other version will continue developing?



*"The LCA (Light Combat Aircraft Tejas) from where evolution into various other projects like Mark 2 RV stealth aircraft (started)" DRDO Chief 
*
Well, I was wrong and I forgot about this RV derivative.

I really hope they are leveraging all possible players in the industry for Mark1A, MWF(IAF, IN), AMCA(IAF, IN), and programs like RV. Because it's alot to chew.

This RV derivative is what I am guess funnels whatever learned from AMCA into MWF. And having a fast transition to a newer design for the late 2020s, early 2030s. I dont know, I was mentioned in the quote, that's it from the chief.

Whatever case, I'm only looking at Mark1A production.

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## The Eagle

Water Car Engineer said:


> French, Euros arent supporting the design like in Mark 1 back in the day, it's all done by ADA. Design is frozen for IAF version, not sure about IN. Both designs are very different. Last I've heard, this was months ago, mental cutting for the prototypes was about to start for IAF Mark 2.
> 
> 
> 
> *"The LCA (Light Combat Aircraft Tejas) from where evolution into various other projects like Mark 2 RV stealth aircraft (started)" DRDO Chief
> *
> Well, I was wrong and I forgot about this RV derivative.
> 
> I really hope they are leveraging all possible players in the industry for Mark1A, MWF(IAF, IN), AMCA(IAF, IN), and programs like RV. Because it's alot to chew.
> 
> This RV derivative is what I am guess funnels whatever learned from AMCA into MWF. And having a fast transition to a newer design for the late 2020s, early 2030s. I dont know, I was mentioned in the quote, that's it from the chief.
> 
> Whatever case, I'm only looking at Mark1A production.



Yeah I read that IAF Chief hints about AMCA & emphasis for LCA to grow further. I was not able to understand but now it is clear. Seems like MK2 will target IN while MK1 is for IAF. However, HAL was about to deliver MK2 by mid 2020 (if I am not wrong) though, the progress suggests it will take more time. 

AMCA, an indigenous product in-fact much more time as we haven't seen anything except of some concept design. However, I will take AMCA discussion to relevant thread so the subject here may remain on topic.


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## KapitaanAli

The Eagle said:


> Yeah I read that IAF Chief hints about AMCA & emphasis for LCA to grow further. I was not able to understand but now it is clear. Seems like MK2 will target IN while MK1 is for IAF. However, HAL was about to deliver MK2 by mid 2020 (if I am not wrong) though, the progress suggests it will take more time.
> 
> AMCA, an indigenous product in-fact much more time as we haven't seen anything except of some concept design. However, I will take AMCA discussion to relevant thread so the subject here may remain on topic.


It's unlikely as of now that Navy will induct NLCA Mk2 or it'll even be developed. Of all the variants (Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, N-Mk1, N-Mk2, SPORT), it's the most paper plane. NAMCA is the only thing Navy is positive about. But NLCA Mk1 as a TD is still funded by Navy and will have carrier trials soon.

Delivery of Mk2 is up to ADA, with four production ready prototypes. Mk1A from HAL.

I don't think the stealth RV has anything to do with this. It's about AURA/SWIFT. There was some nascent talk of making the normal LCA a RV, but I think we can forget that.


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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> It's unlikely as of now that Navy will induct NLCA Mk2 or it'll be even developed. Of all the variants (Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, N-Mk1, N-Mk2, SMART), it's the most paper plane. NAMCA is the only thing Navy is positive about. But NLCA Mk1 as a TD is still funded by Navy and will have carrier trials soon.
> 
> Delivery of Mk2 is up to ADA, with four production ready prototypes. Mk1A from HAL.
> 
> I don't think the stealth RV has anything to do with this. It's about AURA/SWIFT. There was some nascent talk of making the normal LCA a RV, but I think we can forget that.


Is there any other single engine plane capable of taking off from aircraft carrier???


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## KapitaanAli

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Is there any other single engine plane capable of taking off from aircraft carrier???


In the modern day, the overengineered F35 and the subsonic Harrier.


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## Water Car Engineer

The Eagle said:


> Yeah I read that IAF Chief hints about AMCA & emphasis for LCA to grow further. I was not able to understand but now it is clear. *Seems like MK2 will target IN while MK1 is for IAF.* However, HAL was about to deliver MK2 by mid 2020 (if I am not wrong) though, the progress suggests it will take more time.
> 
> AMCA, an indigenous product in-fact much more time as we haven't seen anything except of some concept design. However, I will take AMCA discussion to relevant thread so the subject here may remain on topic.



No, mark 2 or MWF is mostly for IAF. To replace Mirage, Mig 29UPG. Hard to say what will eventually come of the naval MWF, but it's design is actively being worked on that's for sure. We'll see.

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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> In the modern day, the overengineered F35 and the subsonic Harrier.


But many were saying that Tejas is already overweight???


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## KapitaanAli

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But many were saying that Tejas is already overweight???


NLCA Mk1 with F404 is overweight thanks to the naval gear. Tejas Mk1 can use some streamlining (done in Mk1A), but it's not overweight.


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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA Mk1 with F404 is overweight thanks to the naval gear. Tejas Mk1 can use some streamlining (done in Mk1A), but it's not overweight.


If its overweight how will it take off with full load??? Bigger engine or design modification???


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## KapitaanAli

Haris Ali2140 said:


> If its overweight how will it take off with full load??? Bigger engine or design modification???


It's very unlikely that NLCA Mk1 will ever be carrier tested with full load. It's a TD.

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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> It's very unlikely that NLCA Mk1 will ever be carrier tested with full load. It's a TD.


Ok Thanks.


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194445171624005632
*Night Arrestor Hook Landing*

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## KapitaanAli

Malaysia has now reportedly officially shortlisted the Tejas as one of the contenders. Apart from the production rate (which is flexible and demand dependent), I can't think of one technical reason Tejas shouldn't win the contract. Of course better things come at a higher cost. A substitute to the radar front end should immediately be found from within or abroad.

All this would be true before the current GoI in its typical reckless behaviour decided to spite Malaysia over Kashmir. Mahathir's recklessness and hypocrisy deserved a calculated response.


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## Daghalodi

KapitaanAli said:


> Malaysia has now reportedly officially shortlisted the Tejas as one of the contenders. Apart from the production rate (which is flexible and demand dependent), I can't think of one technical reason Tejas shouldn't win the contract. Of course better things come at a higher cost. A substitute to the radar front end should immediately be found from within or abroad.
> 
> All this would be true before the current GoI in its typical reckless behaviour decided to spite Malaysia over Kashmir. Mahathir's recklessness and hypocrisy deserved a calculated response.



Link please


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## KapitaanAli

Daghalodi said:


> Link please


The Print has good defence sources. So this report should be treated differently from the earlier rumours imo. We'll have to wait till next year for confirmations.

https://theprint.in/defence/hal-eye...n-air-force-shortlists-contenders/322569/?amp

Also,






It's universal weapon integration (Tejas) vs value for money (JF17/FC1) vs Swedish engineering (Gripen) vs only want low cost attack, no combat (Others). Unique selling points. Disregarding other positives.


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## Daghalodi

KapitaanAli said:


> The Print has good defence sources. So this report should be treated differently from the earlier rumours imo. We'll have to wait till next year for confirmations.
> 
> https://theprint.in/defence/hal-eye...n-air-force-shortlists-contenders/322569/?amp
> 
> Also,
> View attachment 590082
> 
> 
> It's universal weapon integration (Tejas) vs value for money (JF17/FC1) vs Swedish engineering (Gripen) vs only want low cost attack, no combat (Others). Unique selling points. Disregarding other positives.



Nice Joke!!

Keep it up


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## KapitaanAli

So, as speculated earlier, NLCA Mk2 at least in its current form, seems to be dead. ADA working on a twin engined naval fighter that is not NAMCA.

A good call. Mature defence ecosystems should have the confidence to drop existing designs regardless of the work they put in, or the merits of the designs, if there's a risk of the user not accepting it. The work never goes to waste.


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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> The Print has good defence sources. So this report should be treated differently from the earlier rumours imo. We'll have to wait till next year for confirmations.
> 
> https://theprint.in/defence/hal-eye...n-air-force-shortlists-contenders/322569/?amp
> 
> Also,
> View attachment 590082
> 
> 
> It's universal weapon integration (Tejas) vs value for money (JF17/FC1) vs Swedish engineering (Gripen) vs only want low cost attack, no combat (Others). Unique selling points. Disregarding other positives.


What makes you think Thunder is not universal? Prior research is necessary before making patriotic statements...


----------



## Water Car Engineer

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...-to-the-twin-engine-deck-based-fighter-tedbf/

*The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) controlled by the Defence Research & Development Organization has revealed to Delhi Defence Review (DDR) that it will now develop a Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Indian Navy (IN) instead of persisting with the development of a Mk2 variant of the LCA-Navy (NLCA) design. TEDBF is being projected to enter service with the IN in the early 2030s as a replacement for the existing Russian-built MiG-29K fighter. The program will run concurrently with ADA’s other programs such as the Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) projects and utilize developments from them. The project definition phase (PDP) for this program began in September 2019 itself. A TEDBF mockup is likely to be shown at Aero India 2021, according to ADA.*


*So, why was the NLCA Mk2 effort abandoned in favour of the TEDBF?*
The IN joined the LCA program in order to develop a fighter aircraft for its future aircraft carriers. As part of this effort, ADA was tasked with modifying the baseline LCA design meant for the Indian Air Force (IAF) with a view to making it suitable for naval use. Arrested landings on a carrier bring a high-speed fighter aircraft to a dead stop within a few hundred meters unlike what obtains on a traditional runway at a land-based airstrip. To handle the intense additional stresses likely to be experienced during carrier landings, the undercarriage of the IAF version had to be greatly strengthened, even though the overall airframe was perhaps not modified to the same degree. However, this decision to not substantially modify the baseline LCA airframe led to a NLCA Mk1 design where the strengthened landing gear would ‘sprawl’ under its airframe. This in turn prevented the carriage of external fuel tanks ( or indeed any ‘heavy’ weapons) on the inboard weapons stations of the NLCA Mk1’s wings. This meant that only the centerline and mid-board weapon stations could be used to carry drop tanks, thereby reducing the payload flexibility of the design.

As a result, the IN leaned on ADA to develop a follow-on to the NLCA Mk1 design that would not entail such compromises and truly meet its requirements. For this purpose, Airbus (earlier EADS group) was roped in to provide design consultancy for what became the NLCA Mk2 project. However, the NLCA Mk2, a mockup of which was displayed at Aero India 2019, also failed to enthuse the IN and the service’s thoughts turned towards developing a navalized version of the AMCA. Nevertheless, it was felt by ADA that operational experience with a naval 4th generation fighter was very much needed before developing a next generation fighter for a naval environment. After several rounds of deliberations involving the IN and ADA it was mutually decided that the latter would instead develop a fourth-generation ‘plus’ twin-engine fighter, likely powered by the GE F-414 to meet the IN’s requirements. Thus, was born the TEDBF project.


*Update on NLCA Mk1 Arrested Landing Tests*
Meanwhile, even as the TEDBF project goes through its initial paces, the two existing NLCA Mk1 prototypes have carried out several arrested landings at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) located in INS Hansa. These arrested landings, which are still underway, are being used to test various scenarios with more than 15 such landings taking place since mid-October 2019. The very first such ‘night’ landing was performed on November 13, 2019. As mentioned earlier, the stresses encountered by the airframe during such arrested landings is incredibly high. Remarkably, in all the tests so far, the only item to have detached has been a pilot’s visor, unlike troubles encountered in other programs. Incidentally, the NLCA Mk1 prototypes have a programmed ‘Bolter’ mode which enables automatic-takeoff in case of a missed trap during landings. In the event of a missed trap the aircraft automatically retracts its tail hook i.e. without the need for any pilot input. This feature was actually tested prior to arrested landing tests at SBTF.

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## StormBreaker

Water Car Engineer said:


> http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...-to-the-twin-engine-deck-based-fighter-tedbf/
> 
> *The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) controlled by the Defence Research & Development Organization has revealed to Delhi Defence Review (DDR) that it will now develop a Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Indian Navy (IN) instead of persisting with the development of a Mk2 variant of the LCA-Navy (NLCA) design. TEDBF is being projected to enter service with the IN in the early 2030s as a replacement for the existing Russian-built MiG-29K fighter. The program will run concurrently with ADA’s other programs such as the Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) projects and utilize developments from them. The project definition phase (PDP) for this program began in September 2019 itself. A TEDBF mockup is likely to be shown at Aero India 2021, according to ADA.*
> 
> 
> *So, why was the NLCA Mk2 effort abandoned in favour of the TEDBF?*
> The IN joined the LCA program in order to develop a fighter aircraft for its future aircraft carriers. As part of this effort, ADA was tasked with modifying the baseline LCA design meant for the Indian Air Force (IAF) with a view to making it suitable for naval use. Arrested landings on a carrier bring a high-speed fighter aircraft to a dead stop within a few hundred meters unlike what obtains on a traditional runway at a land-based airstrip. To handle the intense additional stresses likely to be experienced during carrier landings, the undercarriage of the IAF version had to be greatly strengthened, even though the overall airframe was perhaps not modified to the same degree. However, this decision to not substantially modify the baseline LCA airframe led to a NLCA Mk1 design where the strengthened landing gear would ‘sprawl’ under its airframe. This in turn prevented the carriage of external fuel tanks ( or indeed any ‘heavy’ weapons) on the inboard weapons stations of the NLCA Mk1’s wings. This meant that only the centerline and mid-board weapon stations could be used to carry drop tanks, thereby reducing the payload flexibility of the design.
> 
> As a result, the IN leaned on ADA to develop a follow-on to the NLCA Mk1 design that would not entail such compromises and truly meet its requirements. For this purpose, Airbus (earlier EADS group) was roped in to provide design consultancy for what became the NLCA Mk2 project. However, the NLCA Mk2, a mockup of which was displayed at Aero India 2019, also failed to enthuse the IN and the service’s thoughts turned towards developing a navalized version of the AMCA. Nevertheless, it was felt by ADA that operational experience with a naval 4th generation fighter was very much needed before developing a next generation fighter for a naval environment. After several rounds of deliberations involving the IN and ADA it was mutually decided that the latter would instead develop a fourth-generation ‘plus’ twin-engine fighter, likely powered by the GE F-414 to meet the IN’s requirements. Thus, was born the TEDBF project.
> 
> 
> *Update on NLCA Mk1 Arrested Landing Tests*
> Meanwhile, even as the TEDBF project goes through its initial paces, the two existing NLCA Mk1 prototypes have carried out several arrested landings at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) located in INS Hansa. These arrested landings, which are still underway, are being used to test various scenarios with more than 15 such landings taking place since mid-October 2019. The very first such ‘night’ landing was performed on November 13, 2019. As mentioned earlier, the stresses encountered by the airframe during such arrested landings is incredibly high. Remarkably, in all the tests so far, the only item to have detached has been a pilot’s visor, unlike troubles encountered in other programs. Incidentally, the NLCA Mk1 prototypes have a programmed ‘Bolter’ mode which enables automatic-takeoff in case of a missed trap during landings. In the event of a missed trap the aircraft automatically retracts its tail hook i.e. without the need for any pilot input. This feature was actually tested prior to arrested landing tests at SBTF.


I will write this down in my excerpt, shall my generations read this, 2100, rise of a new fighter, TEDBF, can fly and engage.

On a serious note, is this domestic project or aimed for export? Will the project inherit any existing design or will start from scratch?


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## Water Car Engineer

StormBreaker said:


> I will write this down in my excerpt, shall my generations read this, 2100, rise of a new fighter, TEDBF, can fly and engage.
> 
> On a serious note, is this domestic project or aimed for export? Will the project inherit any existing design or will start from scratch?



Domestic program for IACs airwing. We know nothing of it's design. IN wants a twin engined aircraft for its carriers, designwise I am sure it'll get inputs from programs like AMCA, MWF.

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## StormBreaker

Water Car Engineer said:


> Domestic program for IACs airwing. We know nothing of it's design. IN wants a twin engined aircraft for its carriers, designwise I am sure it'll get inputs from programs like AMCA, MWF.


Interesting, let’s see how HAL contributes to the future of aviation sciences. Even though being an adversary, it’s always interesting to see developments and even more interesting to see counter-developments...


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## Water Car Engineer

StormBreaker said:


> Interesting, let’s see how HAL contributes to the future of aviation sciences. Even though being an adversary, it’s always interesting to see developments and even more interesting to see counter-developments...



Not a HAL program, DRDO-ADA. They have too many programs they are handling, in my opinion.

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## StormBreaker

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not a HAL program, DRDO-ADA. They have too many programs they are handling, in my opinion.


Ohh my bad...


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## KapitaanAli

Excerpts from DDR:


Gun trials was stuck due to lack of inert ammunition. To proceed since the same has been received.

Apart from structural changes, Mk1A will feature changes derived from the AMCA and MWF programs. MK1A will feature a revamped Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) besides incorporating various new Line Replaceable Units (LRUs). While the earlier DFCC was based on the 386 series processor, the new DFCC will feature PowerPC based computing architecture. This dramatically improves computing performance. While the Mk1 required 24 physical connectors, the newer version would be a press-fit mechanism drastically reducing maintenance overhead.

The design of dual carriage pylons for carrying missiles as well as a jammer pod on a single underwing station is complete.

14 software updates from the FOC Mk1 have been ported to IOC Mk1 which have entered service. More updates going on.

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## KapitaanAli

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2643393362421762





NLCA taking off the ski-jump with a considerable amount of cross wind, thereby expanding the ski-jump envelope.

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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2643393362421762
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NLCA taking off the ski-jump with a considerable amount of cross wind, thereby expanding the ski-jump envelope.


Not available....


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## Hindustani78

20-November, 2019 17:43 IST
Delhi
PIB - PTI

*Union of India's Establishment's Agreement on Manufacturing of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)*

The Elected Union Government of India has not signed any MoU for Manufacturing of Either Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Aircraft or SS-30 MKI Aircraft with Union of India's Establishment, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

However, for Procurement of Total 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 20 in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and 20 in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) Configuration], Two Production Line Contracts have been Signed between Union of India's Establishment and Union of India's Establishment, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

For Procurement of total 222 SS-30 MKI Aircraft under License Production for Indian Air Force (IAF), Six Contracts have been Signed by the Union of India's Establishment and Union of India's Establishment, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) based on the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) Inked between Union of India and Republic of Malaysia.


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## KapitaanAli

StormBreaker said:


> Not available....


http://www.filedropper.com/tejas-lca-we-take-extreme-pleasure-to-present-this-

Download. No virus.


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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> http://www.filedropper.com/tejas-lca-we-take-extreme-pleasure-to-present-this-
> 
> Download. No *virus*.


But the link says ‘tejas’


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## KapitaanAli

StormBreaker said:


> But the link says ‘tejas’


Upload it to PAC servers. A virus, trojan or worm, anything would be an upgrade. 

tejas.exe


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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> Upload it to PAC servers. A virus, trojan or worm, anything would be an upgrade.
> 
> tejas.exe


I am sure the anti viruses will be serving tea inside the ram/hard disk.

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA takes off ramp with 2xBVR (Derby) and 2xCCM (R73) in launch capability expansion:

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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA takes off ramp with 2xBVR (Derby) and 2xCCM (R73) in launch capability expansion:
> 
> View attachment 591959


But IN has scrapped the plans to get NLCA ?


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## Water Car Engineer

StormBreaker said:


> But IN has scrapped the plans to get NLCA ?



It's still a tech demo.

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## KapitaanAli

StormBreaker said:


> But IN has scrapped the plans to get NLCA ?


Don't be surprised if we see firing tests soon. It seems ADA is leaving no stones unturned in making Mk1 a fully developed DBF, regardless of weight. It's all good data that'll contribute to TEDBF.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## StormBreaker

Water Car Engineer said:


>


I believe that generally LCA is a maintenance headache ? What is the airframe life btw ?
General knowledge question


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## KapitaanAli

StormBreaker said:


> I believe that generally LCA is a maintenance headache ? What is the airframe life btw ?
> General knowledge question


If we ignore a hitman article on behalf of Saab & LM with some atrocious laughable data, what we know is this:


In Gaganashakthi-'18, Tejas did six sorties per day on all airframes in service, totalling 9000 sorties.
_The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe. The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe._
The naval prototype based on the same airframe is able to withstand the tremendous loads that come with ski-arrested trials.

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## KapitaanAli

Reportedly,

Mk1A price fixed at ~$44 million.
If the order is placed at the start of 2020, Mk1A deliveries will start in 2023. 16/year, complete 83 by 2028.
UTTAM AESA has done 11 test flights on Tejas so far. May feature on Mk1A later.
Already developed Mk2 DFCC is bigger and not a fit on Mk1A, but the upgraded Mk2 cards have been installed in Mk1A DFCC chassis.
Reason for canards on Mk2: Increased fuel capacity (3300 kg from 2400 kg) made the aircraft excessively stable. Canards bring back the unstability.
Mk2 first flight by 2023.

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## Supercruising

KapitaanAli said:


> If the order is placed at the start of 2020, Mk1A deliveries will start in 2023. 16/year, complete 83 by 2028.


HAL Chairman said it will be 24 per year fron 2024 onwards.


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## Falcon26

The poster-child of an atrocious project management. LCA should be taught in all management & MBA schools as an example of how _not_ to execute a project.

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## Tipu7

KapitaanAli said:


> Reportedly,
> 
> Mk1A price fixed at ~$44 million.
> If the order is placed at the start of 2020, Mk1A deliveries will start in 2023. 16/year, complete 83 by 2028.
> UTTAM AESA has done 11 test flights on Tejas so far. May feature on Mk1A later.
> Already developed Mk2 DFCC is bigger and not a fit on Mk1A, but the upgraded Mk2 cards have been installed in Mk1A DFCC chassis.
> Reason for canards on Mk2: Increased fuel capacity (3300 kg from 2400 kg) made the aircraft excessively stable. Canards bring back the unstability.
> Mk2 first flight by 2023.


A reference will be sweet...


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## KapitaanAli

_"I would like to thank Indian authorities for giving me the opportunity to fly Tejas. I am proud to have flown it. I have had the experience of flying Mig-29, Sukhoi-30 and Sukhoi-35 fighter jets but flying Tejas was a great experience. It was very controlled and smooth. All the systems in the cockpit are great, I could very easily understand them and the ejection seat is very comfortable. In Russia, we say a beautiful plane can’t fly well. But your jet proved otherwise. It is very beautiful and very manoeuverable. I enjoyed flying it and frankly, I would like to fly more, may be in a dogfight with Sukhoi-30.”_

- Russian Pilot, Ex. Indran '19.

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## HRK

> _and the ejection seat is very comfortable_


Is this what matter most ....???

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## Amigator

Tajas look like an aloo wala samosa from this angle. Perfect take!


KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA takes off ramp with 2xBVR (Derby) and 2xCCM (R73) in launch capability expansion:
> 
> View attachment 591959

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## KapitaanAli



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## Amigator

KapitaanAli said:


> View attachment 595252


ise itne ziada sani plast kyun lagae hoe hain?

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## Surya 1

HRK said:


> Is this what matter most ....???



True, We have seen some cases where pilot took gravity ride with plane because he could not eject. it is a different matter that Tejas has not seen such a day since 2001, but ya, it is very important.


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## Windjammer

Surya 1 said:


> True, We have seen some cases where pilot took gravity ride with plane because he could not eject. it is a different matter that Tejas has not seen such a day since 2001, but ya, it is very important.


And there are pilots who have the nasty habit of ejecting at first sign of emergency and as for Tejas snow-white record, taking an odd flights in a month must be a lucky streak....let's see how it does when it's flying in numbers....and doing combat sorties.

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## Surya 1

Windjammer said:


> And there are pilots who have the nasty habit of ejecting at first sign of emergency and as for Tejas snow-white record, taking an odd flights in a month must be a lucky streak....let's see how it does when it's flying in numbers....and doing combat sorties.



Ya, and those once in a month figure has crossed 4000 flights till date.



KapitaanAli said:


> I enjoyed flying it and frankly, I would like to fly more, may be in a dogfight with Sukhoi-30.”



This one is a great complement. Certainly, when Tejas Mk1A will be pitted against best in class planes, the outcome of the exercise will be very interesting. MK1A will have better aerodynamics and low weight. It will have higher T/W ratio and greater maneuverability. Better plane will be made much better in its Mk1 A Avatar. With top class AESA like Uttam, and very good EW with network centric capability and multi channel communication, it will have all goodies of a top class 4.5 generation plane.


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## Ali_Baba

Surya 1 said:


> With top class AESA like Uttam



How and when did the Uttam all of a "sudden" become "top class" ?? What has it achieved that gives it a "top class" billing?

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## HRK

....... said:


> True, We have seen some cases where pilot took gravity ride with plane because he could not eject. it is a different matter that Tejas has not seen such a day since 2001, but ya, it is very important.


Comfort from an equipment and Effective Operation of that Equipment is two different things ... but the member had to comment out of habit ...


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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> How and when did the Uttam all of a "sudden" become "top class" ?? What has it achieved that gives it a "top class" billing?


Vote of confidence from 1 billion indians
Because of this vote of confidence everything is best if class. Be it the problem ridden, maintenance nightmare and cost eater tejas or the arjun tank

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## KapitaanAli

From the popular 2018 flypast:

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## Han Patriot

Ali_Baba said:


> How and when did the Uttam all of a "sudden" become "top class" ?? What has it achieved that gives it a "top class" billing?


I saw a documentary on Ganga pollution, the Chairman of the Ganga Commission said the river was holy and self cleaning. Now do you knw the level of delusion these Yindoos have.

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## KapitaanAli

I saw a false statement about the number of hardpoints on Mk2 in another thread. To clarify,

Both Mk1 and Mk1A have 7+pod+gun = 9 hardpoints. But gun isn't generally counted.
Mk2 has 11 hardpoints, excluding the gun which has been moved to the top. 9 of Mk1/Mk1A + 2 Wingtips + Gun extra.


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## POTTER

Han Patriot said:


> I saw a documentary on Ganga pollution, the Chairman of the Ganga Commission said the river was holy and self cleaning. Now do you knw the level of delusion these Yindoos have.


Dilusan is the salusan of pollusan ?????

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## KapitaanAli

LCA DELS Simulator:

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA test team has flown 30+ approaches to INS Vikramadityan, very close over the ship deck, at varying speeds and winds.

The arrested landings have been undertaken under various loading conditions and with roll and yaw. In some cases the NLCA was intentionally banked up to 5 degrees before landing.
NLCA has undertaken over 300 FCLPs (Field Carrier Landing Practices) at different sink rates. About 30 arrested landings have been done, without a single miss of the wire.
NLCA Mk2 (TEDBF) first flight by 2026. Not to be confused with Air Force Mk2 MWF, 2023.
NLCA Mk1 "production variant" is being built as NP5. Ready mid-2020.


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## KapitaanAli

The FCS for NLCA single-seater and two-seater aircraft is a unified code unlike the Tejas.
The ski-jump takeoff of NLCA at SBTF is completely autonomous. With a single press of a button commanding ski take off, the flight control computer of the aircraft takes it off the ramp and hands over the control to the pilot after positioning the aircraft to a safe altitude and speed.
The landing of the aircraft is mainly controlled by the throttle, not the stick.


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## Ali_Baba

KapitaanAli said:


> Tejas Simulator:
> 
> View attachment 596751



doesnt look very good, a lot of flight simmers have better setups than this, ie the cockpit area does not look very realistic..


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## Armchair

Falcon26 said:


> The poster-child of an atrocious project management. LCA should be taught in all management & MBA schools as an example of how _not_ to execute a project.


I do just this while teaching MBA classes

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## KapitaanAli

Ali_Baba said:


> doesnt look very good, a lot of flight simmers have better setups than this, ie the cockpit area does not look very realistic..








"Realistic looking" Tejas sims exist.
The one posted earlier is a Distributed Engineer in Loop Simulator, which should be more versatile.


The Distributed Engineer-in-the-Loop Simulator (DELS) is being used extensively by National Control Law (CLAW) team for the development and evaluation of the LCA Control Laws for air force and navy variants, Aircraft Pilot Crew and Modelling and Identification Group of FMCD. All the test points for flight data gathering for PID studies are simulated initially by actually flying or through computer generated inputs. The facility was also used for defining parameter excursion boundaries useful for safe flight monitoring during PID maneuver execution. The COTS dedicated PCs are used for flight model, instructor station, real-time plotting and re-configurable button box functions. These PCs are connected through Giga Bit Ethernet Switch.


Features:

Actual pilot controls with mock-up cockpit.


3D models of Goa & HAL Bangalore Airports and surrounding terrain.


3D model for Indigenous Aircraft Carrier.


3D Ocean model with sea waves in tune to sea state.


3D Models for Optical Landing System.


3D models for Arresting Gear system and Restraining Gear System.


Ship dynamics simulation model.


Real-Time Plotting System to monitor simulation variables during flight.


Re-Configurable Button Box for pilot inputs.


Data Acquisition System using Ethernet based hardware.

Specifications:

Three Window projection system with BARCO Sim-7 series with auto-alignment and auto-calibration feature, blend plates to provide seamless visuals for day and night flying during real-time, FOV 150 x 40 deg.


Techniques applied in this facility:

Simulation based virtual reality.
Computationally efficient table look-up techniques for real-time simulation dealing huge aerodynamic and engine database.
Efficient computational tools for nonlinear flight dynamic analysis.


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## Surya 1

Falcon26 said:


> The poster-child of an atrocious project management. LCA should be taught in all management & MBA schools as an example of how _not_ to execute a project.



It can be taught as how to close the 30 years of technology gap and get a world class 4.5 generation Jet out of nothing. Your B**t hurt can not change the reality.

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## Falcon26

Surya 1 said:


> It can be taught as how to close the 30 years of technology gap and get a world class 4.5 generation Jet out of nothing. Your B**t hurt can not change the reality.



fantasy induced hyperbole 

LCA has taken more than 40 years to make and has still not seen induction with your own navy calling it outdated and not fit for service. It’s a classic white elephant and the only reason it even continues as a project is to fill the pockets of your corrupt generals and HAL


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## Tipu7

Surya 1 said:


> It can be taught as how to close the 30 years of technology gap and get a world class 4.5 generation Jet out of nothing


'get a world class 4.5 Gen fighter'?
Where is it? Pal that 4.5 Gen fighter is still on paper! And will remain so for couple of years.


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## Han Patriot

Tipu7 said:


> 'get a world class 4.5 Gen fighter'?
> Where is it? Pal that 4.5 Gen fighter is still on paper! And will remain so for couple of years.


4.5 gen? Omg these yindoos are really delusional, it is at best a gen 3+ plane, a mig21 replacement.


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## KapitaanAli

Some information on the Tejas Mk2 (MWF). Fig.6 would be useful to those who just want a quick glance.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

What is the current production rate of the 35% indigenous LCA Flying Rickshaw? I read somewhere that only 80+ had been ordered.

Compare that to the JF-17 Thunder which first flew only in 2003 and so far over 130 aircraft have been produced for three air forces.


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## KapitaanAli

Compare the specs, but stop comparing the production of these two fighters. PAF was desperate for fighters and thus went ahead with a barebone Blk1, which IAF would never do. With Blk2, PAF had an okay thing, comparable to Mk1, with some shortcomings in avionics. By then, IAF found it wise to have only AESA inductions, and make only a token order for Mk1. This was the right call, as the Bisons are capable enough to take the fight to the adversary and hold fort, until then. On the sidelines, more and more MKI were being built, more than what was being assembled at PAC.

Now, there's Mk1A and Blk3 with similar specs, both at about the same stages of development. This is the most noteworthy point. Blk3 prototype had first flight, and Mk1A prototype is nothing but a modified Mk1.

With Mk2, we'll go one weight class above. And with the naval versions, it's a whole another field.

Meanwhile, India now has the capability and confidence of a competent ecosystem, thanks to the LCA program. Pakistan is decades away from being anything close, but on the right path thanks to China.

Tejas/LCA program is far from being late.

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## Surya 1

Omni role combat aircraft revealed.











Now, India has mastered a wide spectrum of combat aircraft technologies. Engine technology need to be mastered now. Now certainly , India can design and make CA which can match Latest available right now. 
People say that it took a long time but when it comes, people can see the difference between coppied and stolen aircrafts with one eveoleved out of intense R & D.

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## Deino

Surya 1 said:


> Omni role combat aircraft revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, India has mastered a wide spectrum of combat aircraft technologies. Engine technology need to be mastered now. Now certainly , India can design and make CA which can match Latest available right now.
> People say that it took a long time but when it comes, people can see the difference between coppied and stolen aircrafts with one eveoleved out of intense R & D.




Pardon, but taht's a joke ... at least the artwork - looks more like a fan-made Tejas Mk.2 (now MWF) with a slightly wider fuselage to at least make it look like, but in fact these can never be two F414. So the question is indeed ... how reliable, official is this?

You never fit two F414 into such a slim fuselage, just look at the current Tejas Mk. 2 aka MWF concept:






By the way, people see the difference between a successfully modernised aviation industry that has several indigenous projects flying and in operational service and another country, that in regular intervals presents more and more unrealistic paper-projects and is master of chest-bumping.

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## KapitaanAli

Deino said:


> Pardon, but taht's a joke ... at least the artwork - looks more like a fan-made Tejas Mk.2 (now MWF) with a slightly wider fuselage to at least make it look like, but in fact these can never be two F414. So the question is indeed ... how reliable, official is this?


The only claim to fame is that it's tweeted by a HAL test pilot. It's certainly not an ADA project. Could be one of the things HAL is playing with, by modifying ADA Mk2.

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## Deino

KapitaanAli said:


> The only claim to fame is that it's tweeted by a HAL test pilot. It's certainly not an ADA project. Could be one of the things HAL is playing with, by modifying ADA Mk2.




Thanks, but this proves my concern that it is more a fan-made artwork and nothing official.


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## Ali_Baba

Indians are good at producing diagrams of things they say they will do, but not very good on delivering them when the time comes....

Indians will talk you down, right over your grave, they are not as good on delivering anything, that is the India moto, fuill of hot air and bullshit (or should i say, cowshit ? )...

Draw all the diagrams you want, based on India's delivery rate, it is all vapourware !!!!!!

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## Surya 1

Ali_Baba said:


> Indians are good at producing diagrams of things they say they will do, but not very good on delivering them when the time comes....
> 
> Indians will talk you down, right over your grave, they are not as good on delivering anything, that is the India moto, fuill of hot air and bullshit (or should i say, cowshit ? )...
> 
> Draw all the diagrams you want, based on India's delivery rate, it is all vapourware !!!!!!



your Bu** h**t can please you only.

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## Ali_Baba

Surya 1 said:


> your Bu** h**t can please you only.



Nah, all the b*llsh*t is inside the Indians .. that is the point! we have heard so much of it..

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## KapitaanAli

ORCA, as suspected (since it's the only non-AMCA twin engine project), is a TEDBF contender. It'd likely primarily be a naval design, then ported to air force if needed. Note that "omni role" is a term Dassault uses for Rafale, which entered Navy first.

The model above is a "coarse surface model, to analyse overall size". Details can be ignored.


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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Pardon, but taht's a joke ... at least the artwork - looks more like a fan-made Tejas Mk.2 (now MWF) with a slightly wider fuselage to at least make it look like, but in fact these can never be two F414. So the question is indeed ... how reliable, official is this?
> 
> You never fit two F414 into such a slim fuselage, just look at the current Tejas Mk. 2 aka MWF concept:
> 
> View attachment 597357
> 
> 
> By the way, people see the difference between a successfully modernised aviation industry that has several indigenous projects flying and in operational service and another country, that in regular intervals presents more and more unrealistic paper-projects and is master of chest-bumping.


It's cultural, they will boast and promise ypu the sky, but when it comes to delivery.... ZERO. Pardon me, i am not saying China is awesome, still has maybe 20-30 years to catch up with the West in terms of living standards but when it comes to getting things done, i believe we are good.

Notice the addition of canards, yet nobody seems to say they are copying J-10?lol

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Han Patriot said:


> Notice the addition of canards, yet nobody seems to say they are copying J-10?lol



Indians copy? No! Never!


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## KapitaanAli

Firing R73, Iron Fist '16:


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## Dil Pakistan

Surya 1 said:


> Omni role combat aircraft revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, India has mastered a wide spectrum of combat aircraft technologies. Engine technology need to be mastered now. Now certainly , India can design and make CA which can match Latest available right now.
> People say that it took a long time but when it comes, people can see the difference between coppied and stolen aircrafts with one eveoleved out of intense R & D.





Deino said:


> Pardon, but taht's a joke ... at least the artwork - looks more like a fan-made Tejas Mk.2 (now MWF) with a slightly wider fuselage to at least make it look like, but in fact these can never be two F414. So the question is indeed ... how reliable, official is this?
> 
> You never fit two F414 into such a slim fuselage, just look at the current Tejas Mk. 2 aka MWF concept:
> 
> View attachment 597357
> 
> 
> By the way, people see the difference between a successfully modernised aviation industry that has several indigenous projects flying and in operational service and another country, that in regular intervals presents more and more unrealistic paper-projects and is master of chest-bumping.





KapitaanAli said:


> Firing R73, Iron Fist '16:
> 
> View attachment 597654



Question for those who know the TEJAS more closely. 

One of the major issue with the delta wing aircraft - MIRAGES an example - was the poor turn rate.

A jet as fast as Mirage - with Mach 2.2 achieved 40-years ago - had its problem in its turn rate.

What is the turn rate of Tejas?


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## GumNaam

Dil Pakistan said:


> Question for those who know the TEJAS more closely.
> 
> One of the major issue with the delta wing aircraft - MIRAGES an example - was the poor turn rate.
> 
> A jet as fast as Mirage - with Mach 2.2 achieved 40-years ago - had its problem in its turn rate.
> 
> What is the turn rate of Tejas?


teja's turn is as fast as truck that's carrying it!

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## Dil Pakistan

GumNaam said:


> teja's turn is as fast as truck that's carrying it!





I took that forgranted

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## Surya 1

Dil Pakistan said:


> Question for those who know the TEJAS more closely.
> 
> One of the major issue with the delta wing aircraft - MIRAGES an example - was the poor turn rate.
> 
> A jet as fast as Mirage - with Mach 2.2 achieved 40-years ago - had its problem in its turn rate.
> 
> What is the turn rate of Tejas?



19 degree per second which will be improved to over 18 degree in MK1A to match best.


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## KapitaanAli

ITR ~ 30°/s
STR ~ 16°/s

Use Bahrain '16 and Lima '19 videos if you want to calculate. No marketed values.

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## Goodbye!

Deino said:


> Pardon, but taht's a joke ...
> You never fit two F414 into such a slim fuselage



I guess the joke's on you..







.. that's an F-18, yes.


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## Goodbye!

More pictures courtesy this link.































Haters gonna hate.. but isn't she beautiful!

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## Deino

cb7bs2 said:


> ...
> .. but isn't she beautiful!



No, she's not!

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## Water Car Engineer

Looks like they're adding DSI to more platforms.


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## Deino

cb7bs2 said:


> I guess the joke's on you..
> 
> .. that's an F-18, yes.



Oh well, a true genius has spoken.

Let me as a teacherman try it again: I said in *THIS NARROW* fuselage (as shown in that artwork) you'll never fit two F414. As such to install two of these engines you surely need to redesign the whole rear-fuselage, widen it dramatically and as such You also need to enlarge the intakes accordingly.

So, and now it's you, who need to go back ago: Try to compare the width of the cockpit section, which I scaled here to 30 pixels and then simply add a second F414 as mounted in the Hornet you mentioned ... and et voila, look at the red lines, there is no chance to fit two F414 into the shown fuselage.

So much on who's now the joke!






@Mangus Ortus Novem

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## Surya 1

Deino said:


> Pardon, but taht's a joke ... at least the artwork - looks more like a fan-made Tejas Mk.2 (now MWF) with a slightly wider fuselage to at least make it look like, but in fact these can never be two F414. So the question is indeed ... how reliable, official is this?
> 
> You never fit two F414 into such a slim fuselage, just look at the current Tejas Mk. 2 aka MWF concept:
> 
> View attachment 597357
> 
> 
> By the way, people see the difference between a successfully modernised aviation industry that has several indigenous projects flying and in operational service and another country, that in regular intervals presents more and more unrealistic paper-projects and is master of chest-bumping.



The so called successful projects ate shitty products with decades old substandard technologies.None of those operational aircraft is considered contemporary. They are aerodynamic disasters with substandard technologies.


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## Goodbye!

Deino said:


> No, she's not!


Hater!  .. but yeah I kind of see where you are coming from.. this isn't exactly going to deliver roses in a future Indo China engagement..



Deino said:


> *THIS NARROW*


Are you really so dumb or just pretending? The plane will accommodate 2 engines- their dimensions are known as on date- work back from there..

You laborious effort at proving that the fuselage "appears" narrow? Is that even an argument eyeball expert? Appreciate your effort drawing the red lines- but they don't matter. Scale is everything.


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## Deino

cb7bs2 said:


> Hater!  .. but yeah I kind of see where you are coming from.. this isn't exactly going to deliver roses in a future Indo China engagement..
> ....



No, I'm not a hater but just an observer of both the Sino and Indian aerospace scene since years. By the way I'm not sure if you truly know, where I'm from.



> Are you really so dumb or just pretending? The plane will accommodate 2 engines- their dimensions are known as on date- work back from there..
> 
> You laborious effort at proving that the fuselage "appears" narrow? Is that even an argument eyeball expert? Appreciate your effort drawing the red lines- but they don't matter. Scale is everything.




Again - and I'm sorry if it now sounds rude - You are wrong, plain wrong, that it even hurts. Just try it on your own if you don't like my layman's attempt but it will end in a similar conclusion: Take the size of the F414 as in the left and right image and scale it to the size - this might be indeed the biggest margin of error, since I don't know the Orca's dimensions - of something taht is known, and taht's onyl the size of the cockpit.

So, if we assume, both the Tejas Mk. 1 & 2 have the same size and the Orca will also have, then my comparison is correct and it clearly shows, that in that at least in that artwork's scale never ever two F414 will fit.

Or will you now tell me it looks more like this ...? Here I scaled the Orca's exhaust barely to the F404's exhaust, which would result in a Mega-fighter with a length of about 20.5m . 

Or do you want to tell me the Orca's engines will be a variant of the F414 with a smaller diameter? 
Or that the Orca's pilots are true giants in comparison to a regular Tejas pilot.

So much, on who's dumb.

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## JohnWick

LKJ86 said:


> You should change your mind, and one of the two F414 may be installed outside the fuselage...
> View attachment 598093


I sense some jealousy....


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## Goodbye!

Deino said:


> where I'm from.


You mean to say sir that your DP has absolutely nothing to do with where you are from or where you are originally from? The downright condescension flowing through your posts is a dead give away.. You have a heavy influence of bias overflowing in the land of the yellow river.. I suggest you check your previous posts & you'll understand- or may be not.

and then there's this..




.. CVN19 pinned to that page. but hey none of us called it digital trash as your posts on ORCA seem to suggest



Deino said:


> I don't know the Orca's dimensions - of something taht is known, and taht's onyl the size of the cockpit.



there.. you said it.. it's early days.. your brain farts seem pretty rich at the moment.. the size of the cockpit is only being limited by the timid faculties of the brain you employ.. why do you think a 13.5 ton Mk1, 17.5 ton Mk 2 & a 23-25 ton ORCA will have the same cockpit? You sure you did not fall head first into the hard floor emerging into this world all those years ago? There is little else to explain your tirade.



Deino said:


> So, if we assume



When the premise is wrong how can you ever arrive at the right conclusion?



Deino said:


> length of about 20.5m



it will be in the 17m length ballpark.. about the same as a F/18 C/D or the mig-29K..

Quoting from Vishnu's article..
The fighter would be in the size of the MiG-29K​

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## Deino

cb7bs2 said:


> You mean to say sir that your DP has absolutely nothing to do with where you are from or where you are originally from? The downright condescension flowing through your posts is a dead give away.. You have a heavy influence of bias overflowing in the land of the yellow river.. I suggest you check your previous posts & you'll understand- or may be not.
> 
> and then there's this..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. CVN19 pinned to that page. but hey none of us called it digital trash as your posts on ORCA seem to suggest
> 
> 
> 
> there.. you said it.. it's early days.. your brain farts seem pretty rich at the moment.. the size of the cockpit is only being limited by the timid faculties of the brain you employ.. why do you think a 13.5 ton Mk1, 17.5 ton Mk 2 & a 23-25 ton ORCA will have the same cockpit? You sure you did not fall head first into the hard floor emerging into this world all those years ago? There is little else to explain your tirade.
> 
> 
> 
> When the premise is wrong how can you ever arrive at the right conclusion?
> 
> 
> 
> it will be in the 17m length ballpark.. about the same as a F/18 C/D or the mig-29K..
> 
> Quoting from Vishnu's article..
> The fighter would be in the size of the MiG-29K​




You simply don't get it ... that artwork us trash, a fan-made artist impression, a placeholder and that's it. Just admit it as you say, that type is still in development as such nothing is known but a few cornerstones, but otherwise this artwork is what it is: an artwork and not a realistic representation...

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> You simply don't get it ... that artwork us trash, a fan-made artist impression, a placeholder and that's it. Just admit it as you say, that type is still in development as such nothing is known but a few cornerstones, but otherwise this artwork is what it is: an artwork and not a realistic representation...


It would be better for you to discuss with them about the cross-sectional area of rear fuselage.


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## HariSinghNalwa



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## Nomad40

HariSinghNalwa said:


> View attachment 598226
> View attachment 598227
> View attachment 598228
> View attachment 598229
> View attachment 598232


CANT WAIT TO SHOOT ONE DOWN MY SELF, STOP FRONTING THE M2000 & SOME SOME TEJAS


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## Deino

cb7bs2 said:


> More pictures courtesy this link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haters gonna hate.. but isn't she beautiful!




Can we please stop posting stuff on that new type in the regualar Tejas thread?

It is no longer a Tejas and as such - esp. since there is already a new thread - we should leave this one for the true Tejas.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/firs...nt-of-indias-tejas-fighter-orca.648378/page-5

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## KapitaanAli

FOC SP21 to SP24 to be delivered by March '20. SP21 in January, late due to a software upgrade.
From March, 12/year rate expected, thus FOC delivery complete by March '21.
SP25 to SP28 in advanced stages.
One airframe dedicated to Main Airframe Fatigue Test.
18 trainers will follow the FOC production end.
Mk1A expected at 16/year.
In FOC, daily inspection (DI) panels, drop tanks, hydraulic systems, fuel and environmental control system (ECS) pipelines and canopy are in an interchangeable role.

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## KapitaanAli

*NLCA Mk1 has landed on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramādityan today morning.*

Soon there'll be take-off as well.

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA on INS Vikramādityan:

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA on INS Vikramādityan:






Video of the arrested landing:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1216008309045522433/pu/vid/640x352/MnCbvWtkw6PaX9kV.mp4







NLCA snagged the third wire on the deck. The target was second wire.

23 knots wind at the time of approach. Touchdown at 128 knots relative to the carrier.

Done in clean configuration with max fuel. Planned to fly to Goa in case of abort.
There will be more than 20 tests off the AC in the coming days.

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## KapitaanAli

*NLCA Mk1 has done successful ski-jump off INS Vikramādityan today.*

People will start reporting soon. I can't tell if the reports are lacking because it crashed later or if it's because everyone's at the middle of the ocean. (Just getting the trolls excited.)

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## KapitaanAli

Confirmation that NLCA has done maiden ski-jump off the aircraft carrier.

You may count how many nations have done this with an indigenous design. In the coming week, NLCA will prove better than MiG29K at taking the impact of arrested landings. Apart from the landing gear, this will also be a testament to the ruggedness of AF Tejas.

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## Han Patriot

KapitaanAli said:


> *NLCA Mk1 has done successful ski-jump off INS Vikramādityan today.*
> 
> People will start reporting soon. I can't tell if the reports are lacking because it crashed later or if it's because everyone's at the middle of the ocean. (Just getting the trolls excited.)


Nice, are they gonna use LCA for the next carrier?


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## KapitaanAli

Han Patriot said:


> Nice, are they gonna use LCA for the next carrier?


Not unless it's an emergency or if they want some trainers. Unlikely.

But we know that a production spec NLCA Mk1 is being built anyway. Fanboys can still keep hope.

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## The Ronin

First photos of the N-LCA’s debut launch off INS Vikramaditya’s ski-jump.

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## Deino

KapitaanAli said:


> *NLCA Mk1 has done successful ski-jump off INS Vikramādityan today.*
> 
> People will start reporting soon. I can't tell if the reports are lacking because it crashed later or if it's because everyone's at the middle of the ocean. (Just getting the trolls excited.)




still no images??


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## KapitaanAli

NLCA Mk1 on the deck. You may zoom in.

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## StormBreaker

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA Mk1 on the deck. You may *zoom in*.
> 
> View attachment 599717


As if the jet itself isn’t ugly enough.

I would call it ugly even if it was an American or Chinese fighter

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## Mrc

The Ronin said:


> First photos of the N-LCA’s debut launch off INS Vikramaditya’s ski-jump.





Compared to mig 29 what an ugly monsterosity

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## StormBreaker

Mrc said:


> Compared to mig 29 what an ugly monsterosity


Isko dekh kar to makhi bhi pyari lagne lagti hai

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA Mk1 ski-jump off INS Vikramādityan:

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## KapitaanAli

*Now it's NLCA Mk1 NP1's turn after the NP2 show.*

NP1 landed on the aircraft carrier.
Hot refuelled.
Did ski-jump.
Landed again.
Hot refuelled.
Did ski-jump again, to base.

Like I said, already more reliable than the MiG29K.

The reason for successive refuelling is simple. In testing stage, you've to be ready to return to base at every possibility of abort.

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## ziaulislam

KapitaanAli said:


> *Now it's NLCA Mk1 NP1's turn after the NP2 show.*
> 
> NP1 landed on the aircraft carrier.
> Hot refuelled.
> Did ski-jump.
> Landed again.
> Hot refuelled.
> Did ski-jump again, to base.
> 
> Like I said, already more reliable than the MiG29K.
> 
> The reason for successive refuelling is simple. In testing stage, you've to be ready to return to base at every possibility of abort.


Do we expect navy changing its mind and adopting it..i dont know whther a thrust of 90kn will cut it for navy aircraft its half of a mig29


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## Goku

ziaulislam said:


> Do we expect navy changing its mind and adopting it..i dont know whther a thrust of 90kn will cut it for navy aircraft its half of a mig29


Probably no , Navys biggest demand is twin engine. This is just a Tech demonstrator


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## KapitaanAli

ziaulislam said:


> Do we expect navy changing its mind and adopting it..i dont know whther a thrust of 90kn will cut it for navy aircraft its half of a mig29


Only if it's an emergency. Unlikely.

One production spec NLCA Mk1 will be ready this year, and a few more will be built. They'll likely have a weird trainer/TD/fighter role to play. So we'll certainly see more of this thing.


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## KapitaanAli

Video of NLCA Mk1 NP2 maiden ski-jump off INS Vikramādityan:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1217357878069084160/pu/vid/1280x720/ZhLZuxUV29kUHpff.mp4

Reportedly, NP1 & NP2 together have done 12 ski-jumps off and landings on the carrier. 3 cycles each today itself.

There seems to be a slight crosswind in the above video. (From the photos, the crosswind is nil. So perhaps it's a small asymmetry in the jump.) Reminds me of the most beautiful video of the NLCA prior to this, with a considerable amount of crosswind. Watch the aircraft recovering:

https://video-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...=0d8f93478797f102c0d3e26549037360&oe=5E98356A

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## KapitaanAli

Another angle of the jump:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1217370912229490689/pu/vid/640x360/Ckbv9m2Q_5kQ6rBN.mp4

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA Mk1 NP2 maiden ski-jump cockpit view:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1217689753203593216/pu/vid/720x526/EpadqNx3lrJvI1Cg.mp4

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## KapitaanAli

Selfie hook video of NLCA MK1 NP2's maiden arrested landing on the carrier:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1217710387744792576/pu/vid/1270x720/ZDQlIj-PYCZo6e5E.mp4

NLCA Mk1 approaching the carrier:









NLCA Mk1 being hot-refuelled on deck routinely:






Although the engine is likely powered down here, which doesn't make it true hot-refuel.

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## Dazzler

KapitaanAli said:


> Selfie hook video of NLCA MK1 NP2's maiden arrested landing on the carrier:
> 
> https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1217710387744792576/pu/vid/1270x720/ZDQlIj-PYCZo6e5E.mp4
> 
> NLCA Mk1 approaching the carrier:
> 
> View attachment 600099
> View attachment 600100
> 
> 
> NLCA Mk1 being hot-refuelled on deck routinely:
> 
> View attachment 600101
> 
> 
> Although the engine is likely powered down here, which doesn't make it true hot-refuel.



Any word on this development by the IN?


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## KapitaanAli

Dazzler said:


> Any word on this development by the IN?


They made a few congratulatory/celebratory tweets, posted the photos, and made it clear that this is still a TD by talking about the TEDBF:

_With this feat, the indigenously developed niche technologies specific to deck based fighter operations have been proven, which will now pave the way to develop and manufacture the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter for the #IndianNavy._


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## Dazzler

KapitaanAli said:


> They made a few congratulatory/celebratory tweets, posted the photos, and made it clear that this is still a TD by talking about the TEDBF:
> 
> _With this feat, the indigenously developed niche technologies specific to deck based fighter operations have been proven, which will now pave the way to develop and manufacture the *Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter* for the #IndianNavy._




They said it in the bold part.


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## KapitaanAli

Excerpts:

“_We are happy that we were able to beat the March deadline. As per our earlier plans, we had to factor in a possible software update. However the approaches to the carrier were flawless from handling point of view (during trials before the actual arrested landing). The modelling we had done of the ship wake turned out to be very good. Hence, no software update was needed and we could beat the March deadline."_

_“The target is to engage on each of the three wires. Also ship speed is being varied from maximum to minimum to check loads on aircraft and hook. This is a very systematic study to get data for design. These are not just random engagements."_

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## KapitaanAli



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## Zapper

*HAL has designs on a full LCA for Navy*

After playing a prominent supporting role in the Light Combat Aircraft naval prototype’s tricky landing and take-off debuts from a Navy ship last week-end, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd eyes the prospect of fully designing and developing a twin-engine fighter plane for the Navy if or when an occasion comes up.





Asked what the successful twin acts of naval protytpe NP2 mean for its manufacturer HAL, company Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said the recent ship-based trials will, of course, not translate to business from the Navy unless a twin-engined fighter project formalises from the Force.

Mr. Madhavan said, “It is our desire that the twin-engine Navy project be given to us so that we can design LCA-Navy as required. Such a step will lead to speeding up the project.”





HAL has already been deeply involved in the ongoing deck trials of the two naval prototypes; it has produced them for the Defence Research & Development Organisation DRDO. The defence public sector company has contributed to designing sub-systems of the LCA project - a plane that was originally started for the Air Force.

The DRDO’s special arm ADA or the Aeronautical Development Agency in Bengaluru is tasked with designing and developing the LCA versions and future indigenous fighter planes.


Vital parts ::

HAL said many critical paraphernalia and support staff for the naval prototype were its contributions, both before and during the recent trials on the ship.

It contributed the arrestor hook system, a redesigned landing gear, a speed controlling device for landings, a drooped nose to give the pilot a good view, a stronger fuselage and the fuel dump.

“We anyway design the LCA structures. Our engineering is proven. If it is possible to extend it to the full project, it would speed up the R&D,” Mr. Madhavan said.

“If a twin-engine naval aircraft project should come up, then HAL can offer the Navy a deck-based aircraft.” With a design house each in Bengaluru and Nashik, he said HAL was up to taking up such a task.

The two Navy prototypes NP1 and NP2, seen as potential trainers, are derived from the IAF version of the indigenous light fighter. A production standard version called NP5 has also been considered.

All these are single-engine while the Navy indicated in 2016 that it needed only two-engined aircraft. With a double-engine LCA being some time away, more so for the Navy, it is an area of interest for its stakeholders.


Rare capability ::

The second LCA-Navy prototype LCA-NP2 achieved two technologically challenging feats. On January 11 it did an arrested landing on the relatively narrow decks of the carrier INS Vikramaditya and took off the next day ìn what is called the ski jump style.

Underlining the achievement, Mr. Madhavan said only 3-4 countries have such a technology to deploy or land their fighters from the limited confines of a carrier.

Currently HAL’s fixed-wing design house is working on the HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft.

About the scope for a naval aircraft fleet an informed person said its current fleet of Russian origin MiG-29Ks are expected to go obsolete around 2028-32. Another opportunity to replenish naval aircraft could arise if the country goes in for a third aircraft carrier around the year 2040 as envisioned for the long term.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hal-has-designs-on-a-full-lca-for-navy/article30579389.ece

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## KapitaanAli

The above article confirms what I have been saying about ORCA, I think.

My argument was that ORCA is something HAL wants to develop by themselves based on ADA Tejas Mk2, for both Air Force and Navy, like the original ORCA Rafale. I had mentioned their desire to be a design house, after decades of being a production powerhouse. The quotes in the article points to exactly the same.

This will put them in competition with ADA's TEDBF.

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## KapitaanAli

Tejas Mk1 of the Flying Daggers welcoming BrahMos-MKI Tiger Sharks to southern India:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1219139611386994690/pu/vid/1280x720/8NQGfqbm-w4d7E_O.mp4

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## KapitaanAli



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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214773958026784771

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217710464160763905

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217700984220045313

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## KapitaanAli

Hushkit interview with a Tejas pilot:

The best:

Auto Low Speed Recovery (ALSR) combined with higher control laws make Tejas the most carefree fighter in the world. An argument he's willing to defend in a debate, and something we hear often.
Small size & Sensor package.
Flexible avionics.
HMDS and LOS modes.
FCS.
Control and handling in high gain tasks like aerial refuelling.
Instantaneous turn rate.
High alpha performance. Difficult to enter a difficult situation.
Exactly what was asked for: nimble, swift, light and frugal. Capability to absorb new systems in the next 15 years.
Checks and procedures before take-off are minimal.

The worst:

Inevitable shorter legs due to the small size.

Full interview: https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-fighting-in-hal-tejas-interview-with-test-pilot-rajeev-joshi/

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## zeeshe100

Indian samosa

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## Deino

Water Car Engineer said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh come on!! that's nothing but a stupid photoshop fake!

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Oh come on!! that's nothing but a stupid photoshop fake!


A really bad one


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## Zapper

KapitaanAli said:


> The above article confirms what I have been saying about ORCA, I think.
> 
> My argument was that ORCA is something HAL wants to develop by themselves based on ADA Tejas Mk2, for both Air Force and Navy, like the original ORCA Rafale. I had mentioned their desire to be a design house, after decades of being a production powerhouse. The quotes in the article points to exactly the same.
> 
> This will put them in competition with ADA's TEDBF.


But I doubt HAL has the necessary funds nor the expertise to design an entire aircraft from scratch even if ADA let's HAL use it's research & test facilities. Neverthless, if this goes ahead...I'm sure ADA would fastrack it's developmental process to ensure their design is selected over HAL's


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## KapitaanAli

Zapper said:


> But I doubt HAL has the necessary funds nor the expertise to design an entire aircraft from scratch even if ADA let's HAL use it's research & test facilities. Neverthless, if this goes ahead...I'm sure ADA would fastrack it's developmental process to ensure their design is selected over HAL's


If all this is true and if HAL is serious, it'd be the right time for TASL to swoop in with a letter to ADA. Much better odds than the F16/F21 JV with LM.


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## Zapper

KapitaanAli said:


> If all this is true and if HAL is serious, it'd be the right time for TASL to swoop in with a letter to ADA. Much better odds than the F16/F21 JV with LM.


I'm pretty sure IAF nor MoD wouldn't go ahead with the F21 given it's always sanction prone and would force us to withdraw all our contracts with Russians. We've seen how pak was denied additional F16's or AH-1Z's on a later note and the most recent victim is Turkey being kicked outta the F-35 project.

Also, MMRCA 2.0 doesn't make sense at this moment since shortlisting a fighter jet would itself take 3-5yrs and a couple more for price negotiation and stuff. We're also well aware that US wouldn't provide significant ToT either. Even if this goes through, the first jet might roll out in a decade by the time which most countries would've moved to 5th gen and pak might potentially get the J-31 as well. 

MWF shouldn't take much time since it's a derivative of the LCA and most of the research & test facilities are already in place. MWF should fulfill our SE jet requirement by heavily outsourcing majority of the components while HAL acting only as the lead integrator while ADA could partner with TASL and other private Indian defence firms to fastrack the development of TEDBF, an AF alternative and also the AMCA


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## KapitaanAli

The HAL test pilot reporting that Colombia has been considering Tejas to replace their Mirage/Kfir. This time make sure that a proper maintenance contract is signed, to avoid what happened with Ecuador.

Seeing that Colombia likes Israeli weapons, HAL should consider the comprehensive package proposed by Rafael for Tejas. Could easily happen since HAL seems to be close with Israeli lobby.

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## KapitaanAli



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## KapitaanAli

Tejas Mk2 cockpit mock-up:

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## RPK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1224050029838532609

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## Water Car Engineer

MWF Cockpit - Single panel display, side stick


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## KapitaanAli

Tejas Mk2:

Nose probe eliminated in favour of underbelly probes. Avoids reduction in radar performance.
IRST, MAWS.
Retractable IFR probe.
Large Area Display, Active Side Stick, Light HUD (DLE HUD from BAE, I think).
Canards, Wingtip missiles, 1.35m longer, 300mm more wing spacing, 11 hardpoints etc.
Station capacity of 1800kg, enabling Rudram-3 SOW.
8 BVR missiles at once.
Modified intakes.

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## KapitaanAli

Mk2:

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## Kabotar

It will be difficult as Americans are also in the race and Tejas uses American engines.


KapitaanAli said:


> The HAL test pilot reporting that Colombia has been considering Tejas to replace their Mirage/Kfir. This time make sure that a proper maintenance contract is signed, to avoid what happened with Ecuador.
> 
> Seeing that Colombia likes Israeli weapons, HAL should consider the comprehensive package proposed by Rafael for Tejas. Could easily happen since HAL seems to be close with Israeli lobby.

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## ziaulislam

KapitaanAli said:


> Mk2:
> View attachment 603174


Why call it tejas its basically a new aircraft 
Its not even a gripen NG like evolution its new aircraft


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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> Tejas Mk2:
> 
> Nose probe eliminated in favour of underbelly probes. Avoids reduction in radar performance.
> IRST, MAWS.
> Retractable IFR probe.
> Large Area Display, Active Side Stick, Light HUD (DLE HUD from BAE, I think).
> Canards, Wingtip missiles, 1.35m longer, 300mm more wing spacing, 11 hardpoints etc.
> Station capacity of 1800kg, enabling Rudram-3 SOW.
> 8 BVR missiles at once.
> Modified intakes.


Do u seriously believe this,,,I mean mtow of 17500-18000 kg with GE 414,,with <60Kn dry thrust.
Looks like new manjan they r selling to dpsu bhakts, , they r conveniently setting themselves up for another epic failure.
Perhaps so as to blame inadequate engine for poor performance.n draw salaries another couple of decades.


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## KapitaanAli

ziaulislam said:


> Why call it tejas its basically a new aircraft
> Its not even a gripen NG like evolution its new aircraft


It's very similar to LCA Tejas. Apart from the size/engine/control surfaces, such hw/sw changes are often seen in mid-life upgrades or Block upgrades. Some of the changes are already being retrofitted to Mk1.
11 hardpoints are achieved by using the 2 wingtips and moving the 1 gun to top. Thus, 10+pod+gun.
Mk1/Mk1A already has 7+pod+gun.
The longer fuselage gives space for more sensors and fuel.

It's not _too_ far from the Gripen evolution. A novice may even mistake MWF for LCA if not for the canards. But certainly, the aero will be significantly different. In the end, it's just a name. Upto the makers if to focus on similarity or dissimilarity.



halupridol said:


> Do u seriously believe this,,,I mean mtow of 17500-18000 kg with GE 414,,with <60Kn dry thrust.
> Looks like new manjan they r selling to dpsu bhakts, , they r conveniently setting themselves up for another epic failure.
> Perhaps so as to blame inadequate engine for poor performance.n draw salaries another couple of decades.


Indian F404 is a more powerful variant and F414 is likely to be the same. I'm more worried about the govt having no money for orders. If the economy doesn't pickup, chai-biskoot is the least of our worries. If Mk1A isn't signed this DefExpo, there's absolutely no logic in blaming DRDO/ADA/HAL/IAF. The blame rests on GoI and the people.


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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> Indian F404 is a more powerful variant and F414 is likely to be the same. I'm more worried about the govt having no money for orders. If the economy doesn't pickup, chai-biskoot is the least of our worries. If Mk1A isn't signed this DefExpo, there's absolutely no logic in blaming DRDO/ADA/HAL/IAF. The blame rests on GoI and the people.


Didnt know Indian f404 is more powerful, ,more thn 58-60kn dry?
Any official GE link for tht? Or is it just some journo/expert info?


Regarding mk1a,,,, I wudnt waste time let alone order anything based on empty dpsu's talk.
Where is mk1a,,,been listening about it since ages now,,,,,if all technologies r already here,, like they claim,,,why haven't they integrated aesa atleast on some lsp n shown IAF,,they seem to have enuff resources for lca navy n sport(let's get real,,nobody even wants those) ,I mean whr is mk1 foc to begin with??
About mwf,,,only naive fools wud believe tht it's going to come before 12-15 years(i estimate 20 yrs for FOC unlike bhakts who say <10 yrs.)
N those mwf specifications by dpsu, ,,even superior to grippen,,,it's ok to aim high,,lekin kumsekum aukaat bhi toh samjho apni.
Dpsu claims mean nothng more thn just claims.
I mean have u gone through anantha krishnans video(posted on this page) ?
Just listen,, whts the guys saying,it has this ,it has tht,, as if mwf is ready right now  (for a paper plane)
Even dpsu bhakts use, 'shall/will'
Yeh toh ek step aur upar hai.
What a joke


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## KapitaanAli

halupridol said:


> Didnt know Indian f404 is more powerful, ,more thn 58-60kn dry?
> Any official GE link for tht? Or is it just some journo/expert info?


Very official. It's the IN20 variant. Highest rated F404. Wet is 84-85kN. Dry is unknown, but those numbers are unlikely. One data point we have is that NLCA Mk1 was jumping off the ship at 63.2kN.

https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f404-engine

It's hard to comment on the status of Mk1A. We know that one or two LCA are flying with UTTAM. Jaguar has already integrated 2052. The same is said to be meant for Mk1A. So integration isn't an issue and maybe it already is. No stakeholder has been complaining about it and the general idea is that placing the order should be the next step.


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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> Very official. It's the IN20 variant. Highest rated F404. Wet is 84-85kN. Dry is unknown, but those numbers are unlikely. One data point we have is that NLCA Mk1 was jumping off the ship at 63.2kN.
> 
> https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f404-engine


Yes wet is 84kn according to ge website.
n i saw tht 60+ kn on the hud takeoff clip.n if i am not wrong,,deck takeoffs r done with afterburners turned on.
So,it makes claims of 60kn dry thrust even more dubious.
Moreover no official confirmation from GE about it.



KapitaanAli said:


> It's hard to comment on the status of Mk1A. We know that one or two LCA are flying with UTTAM. Jaguar has already integrated 2052. The same is said to be meant for Mk1A. So integration isn't an issue and maybe it already is. No stakeholder has been complaining about it and the general idea is that placing the order should be the next step.


You mean to say dpsu has time n resources for lca navy n sport,,products which have about zero chances of getting customers.
While mk1a may actually see some orders.(domestic n foreign)

But hasn't integrated aesa on mk1 or flown an lsp in mk1a configuration,,,somthng IAF has shown interest in.,,despite the integration apparently being a non issue,,, yeah right.
N btw if it was already done,,, I doubt they wud have missed tht chance to show off.
Like how,"according to sources", every now n thn countries r interested in lca,,, Malaysia, Srilanka, now Columbia.
Come on.


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## Water Car Engineer

Future defence airplanes to be developed.

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## BringHarmony

Zapper said:


> I'm pretty sure IAF nor MoD wouldn't go ahead with the F21 given it's always sanction prone and would force us to withdraw all our contracts with Russians. We've seen how pak was denied additional F16's or AH-1Z's on a later note and the most recent victim is Turkey being kicked outta the F-35 project.
> 
> Also, MMRCA 2.0 doesn't make sense at this moment since shortlisting a fighter jet would itself take 3-5yrs and a couple more for price negotiation and stuff. We're also well aware that US wouldn't provide significant ToT either. Even if this goes through, the first jet might roll out in a decade by the time which most countries would've moved to 5th gen and pak might potentially get the J-31 as well.
> 
> MWF shouldn't take much time since it's a derivative of the LCA and most of the research & test facilities are already in place. MWF should fulfill our SE jet requirement by heavily outsourcing majority of the components while HAL acting only as the lead integrator while ADA could partner with TASL and other private Indian defence firms to fastrack the development of TEDBF, an AF alternative and also the AMCA


The best bet for you folks will be to get a European radar. I heard SELEX makes some really great ones. Take Raven from Gripen. Its made by SELEX, am Italian company. Get the integration with Meteor and AIM120C8 and AIM120D. Let SELEX do it for you and don't bother with all the jumping and pumping about indigenous etc. Integrate that radar in your fighters. Buy massive amounts of such armaments (Meteor, AIM120D). It will also give you a bit of numbers to show to UK and US when it comes to economic ties. It will be a god-like fighter. Working with a competent AWACS, it can take on anything Pakistan and China can throw at you. Don't waste your money buying platforms. Buy competent weapons and targetting systems so long you cann't make few.

On your home front, develop an AESA radar of your own and a bevy of A2A missiles and A2G PGMs and A2G missiles. Look at how China did it. Integrate them with your own AESA radar, also integrate missiles from denel, IAI and France. BAE will not let you do that with their owned missiles, neither will Rayethon. In the end you will have a radar + weapons integrated with your own, french, israel and possibly russian weapons. It will be a formidable selection for any country not aligned with western blocks. You can export it and also use it to build numbers.

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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> Why call it tejas its basically a new aircraft
> Its not even a gripen NG like evolution its new aircraft




It's not called Tejas or LCA, but MWF.

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## Goku

BringHarmony said:


> The best bet for you folks will be to get a European radar. I heard SELEX makes some really great ones. Take Raven from Gripen. Its made by SELEX, am Italian company. Get the integration with Meteor and AIM120C8 and AIM120D. Let SELEX do it for you and don't bother with all the jumping and pumping about indigenous etc. Integrate that radar in your fighters. Buy massive amounts of such armaments (Meteor, AIM120D). It will also give you a bit of numbers to show to UK and US when it comes to economic ties. It will be a god-like fighter. Working with a competent AWACS, it can take on anything Pakistan and China can throw at you. Don't waste your money buying platforms. Buy competent weapons and targetting systems so long you cann't make few.
> 
> On your home front, develop an AESA radar of your own and a bevy of A2A missiles and A2G PGMs and A2G missiles. Look at how China did it. Integrate them with your own AESA radar, also integrate missiles from denel, IAI and France. BAE will not let you do that with their owned missiles, neither will Rayethon. In the end you will have a radar + weapons integrated with your own, french, israel and possibly russian weapons. It will be a formidable selection for any country not aligned with western blocks. You can export it and also use it to build numbers.


Our own AESA called as UTTAM is being tested on LCA. Its scalable. 
ASRAAM is selected as the CCM for all platforms.
We already have Derby ER for our A/Cs.
Homegrown AAM known as ASTRA will be inducted soon.
We have bought Elta 2052 AESA radar for our Jaguar and LCA platforms with TOT.


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## KapitaanAli

Mock-up:

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## Water Car Engineer

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5

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## KapitaanAli

@Haris Ali2140 I can't post in the Blk3 thread for awhile. I'll reply here since the same radar is related to Tejas Mk1A. Contract for 54# 2052 has been signed for Jaguars. The first Jaguar D3 has been inducted. The engine will remain old, but other upgrades will stay.

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## KapitaanAli

As I warned yesterday, Mk1A contract will not be signed this DefExpo, as per reports.

Good going. Now Mk1 FOC / Trainer delivery will be stretched for years.

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## Deino

KapitaanAli said:


> As I warned yesterday, Mk1A contract will not be signed this DefExpo, as per reports.
> 
> Good going. Now Mk1 FOC / Trainer delivery will be stretched for years.




Pardon, but why again a delay?

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## KapitaanAli

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why again a delay?


To be fair, the disappointment/delay stems simply from our expectation. It's possible they've to push it to next financial year, which is still 2020. Any further is unforgivable. 2023 is the expected start of Mk1A production.

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## ziaulislam

KapitaanAli said:


> @Haris Ali2140 I can't post in the Blk3 thread for awhile. I'll reply here since the same radar is related to Tejas Mk1A. Contract for 54# 2052 has been signed for Jaguars. The first Jaguar D3 has been inducted. The engine will remain old, but other upgrades will stay.


So its not scrapped ...
Hiw would this work for an already under powered aircraft


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## halupridol

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why again a delay?


probably coz its a paper plane as of now,,,n people higher up realised tht dpsu's cant deliver on thr promises.
40 mk1 already ordered r enuff for now,,,Mk1 Foc version is yet to fly.

Mk1a is supposed to be an optimised version of mk1.
No changes in airframe,,major upgrade being the aesa radar.

Like i said if dpsu's were serious ,,they wud have integrated an aesa radar to a lsp n demonstrated tht they can actually do it.
if they can do lca navy/lca sport,,,thn why not mk1a.

Or perhaps despite what people want us to believe,,tejas airframe has serious limitations,,explains the reluctance shown by our nationalistic govt. in signing mk1a deal,,,prompting the dpsu's to come up with mk2(mwf) as the next big thing,,,a totally new aircraft.
While LCA sport/navy being just attempts by dpsu's to save some face for 30 yrs of toiling.

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## KapitaanAli

The news about Mk1A contract being imminent came from the current IAF Chief himself. The price has been fixed at ~41million by the MoD after negotiation. I don't think a prototype (i.e. a modified Mk1 LSP) was a pre-requisite.

Or it is now, but it shouldn't be. India has signed many contracts for non-existent things that are upgraded versions of existing things, which is what Mk1A is. There's no drawback in signing the contract. It'll only liven up Mk1 FOC lines.

It's just that the "nationalistic" govt has no money, because who needs that! So of course now the burden has been put on HAL. As per the CDS, procurement of fighters has to be staggered, and there's no money for a third aircraft carrier.

It is certainly not about the aircraft. Its only limitation is range, being light. Otherwise Mk1 is currently the most user friendly and the one with the best A2G scores in the IAF. Imagine what the addition of an AESAR etc. would do.

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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> The news about Mk1A contract being imminent came from the current IAF Chief himself. The price has been fixed at ~41million by the MoD after negotiation. I don't think a prototype (i.e. a modified Mk1 LSP) was a pre-requisite.
> 
> Or it is now, but it shouldn't be. India has signed many contracts for non-existent things that are upgraded versions of existing things, which is what Mk1A is. There's no drawback in signing the contract. It'll only liven up Mk1 FOC lines.
> 
> It's just that the "nationalistic" govt has no money, because who needs that! So of course now the burden has been put on HAL. As per the CDS, procurement of fighters has to be staggered, and there's no money for a third aircraft carrier.
> 
> It is certainly not about the aircraft. Its only limitation is range, being light. Otherwise Mk1 is currently the most user friendly and the one with the best A2G scores in the IAF. Imagine what the addition of an AESAR etc. would do.


Does delaying orders increases price also???


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## Goku

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does delaying orders increases price also???


Yes they do but doesn't matter much as IAF and HAL both are under MoD.

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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> The news about Mk1A contract being imminent came from the current IAF Chief himself. The price has been fixed at ~41million by the MoD after negotiation. I don't think a prototype (i.e. a modified Mk1 LSP) was a pre-requisite.
> 
> Or it is now, but it shouldn't be. India has signed many contracts for non-existent things that are upgraded versions of existing things, which is what Mk1A is. There's no drawback in signing the contract. It'll only liven up Mk1 FOC lines.
> 
> It's just that the "nationalistic" govt has no money, because who needs that! So of course now the burden has been put on HAL. As per the CDS, procurement of fighters has to be staggered, and there's no money for a third aircraft carrier.
> 
> It is certainly not about the aircraft. Its only limitation is range, being light. Otherwise Mk1 is currently the most user friendly and the one with the best A2G scores in the IAF. Imagine what the addition of an AESAR etc. would do.


Yeah i can imagine,,,its already best in class,after AESA it wud be the new raptor of east.Makes sense ,afterall tht post is vacant since last Feb.
Thankfully the govt doesnt seem to have such delusions.
Mk1a has been in news since 2015.
U want to say tht this nationalistic govt. which is firmly backing 'MAKE IN INDIA',,has money to buy meagre 36 superexpensive Rafale but has no spare change for the supposed 'best in class/worldclass' indiginous tejas,,to liven up mk1 foc lines,,,hmm,,tht alone shud give u a hint.
Regarding previous orders signed for non existent defence products,,those were CONgress times.
N perhaps aesa integrated lsp is not a prerequisite,,,,but neither is lca sport/navy.(those r just white elephants).
Dont u think mk1 wid aesa will evoke much more interests from other countries thn this sport or whatevr.
So yes there might be severe deficiencies in tejas design.
Hence,,mwf.


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## KapitaanAli

Even the 36 Rafale ordered are non-existent variants. India-specific modifications are yet to be incorporated.

Mk1A has great company in LCH. Wonder where those orders are.


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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> Even the 36 Rafale ordered are non-existent variants. India-specific modifications are yet to be incorporated.
> 
> Mk1A has great company in LCH. Wonder where those orders are.


There,,u got ur answer.
The current govt is not corrupt congress,,this govt. always keeps national interest forefront.
If the govt. hasnt ordered any of them since being in power for 6 years,,,its safe to assume tht despite what is parroted by indiginous chanters/dosu bhakts,,,,these dpsu products r not worthy to be considered,,,atleast tejas got 40 token orders,,perhaps tht was amount of money govt felt it can spare for the capability(or the lack of any) tejas brings to the table.
Govt has poured huge money on 36 expensive phoren paper planes.
But reluctant on the so called 'best in class' desi solution.
I dont think it shud be hard to draw inference.


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## KapitaanAli

According to the HAL test pilot, Mk1A is on track and the contract has to go through due process, which will take ~4 months.

So next FY it is. Disappointment stems from our expectations.


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## letsrock

Goku said:


> Yes they do but doesn't matter much as IAF and HAL both are under MoD.



what do you m ean it doesnt matter. 70 percent plus content is imported. So it ofcourse matters.

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## Goku

letsrock said:


> what do you m ean it doesnt matter. 70 percent plus content is imported. So it ofcourse matters.


https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...alue-75-5-by-numbers/articleshow/55498923.cms
Where did u pull that 70 percent plus content is imported from? Biggest import is Engine itself. 
Get your facts right


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## letsrock

Goku said:


> https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...alue-75-5-by-numbers/articleshow/55498923.cms
> Where did u pull that 70 percent plus content is imported from? Biggest import is Engine itself.
> Get your facts right


I said 70 percent plus is imported and your link says 75% of parts are imported. Anyway the topic is not to haggle on exact percentage content but impacts of delays in ordering LCA;s. All this will have to be paid in foreign exchange and delays will impact.

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## Goku

letsrock said:


> I said 70 percent plus is imported and your link says 75% of parts are imported. Anyway the topic is not to haggle on exact percentage content but impacts of delays in ordering LCA;s. All this will have to be paid in foreign exchange and delays will impact.


I think u are weak in English comprehension. I will advise to re read it. The article says indigenous content is 60% by value and 75% by numbers. And Major parr of import is the Engine.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## KapitaanAli

NLCA Mk1:

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## KapitaanAli

HAL marketing Mk1A:






First delivery is still 2023.

Is HAL removing the HUD in favour of a more advanced HMDS in Mk1A? Mk2 will keep the HUD, but it's an ADA design. I don't see it in the graphic of the jet.


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## Aliph Ahmed

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA Mk1:
> 
> View attachment 604420



A flawed design can only go so far. Even a brick will fly if you attach it to a fireworks. 

I finished college, university., got job. Got married, got two kids. Got a house and this piece of junk is still begging for FOC. Tsk tsk tsk.


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## KapitaanAli

Aliph Ahmed said:


> A flawed design can only go so far. Even a brick will fly if you attach it to a fireworks.
> 
> I finished college, university., got job. Got married, got two kids. Got a house and this piece of junk is still begging for FOC. Tsk tsk tsk.


The FOC configuration is as different from what it was supposed to be 10 years ago, as your in-laws' current feelings about you from when you got married.

And yes, the FOC is done. The image you quoted is that of the Naval LCA.


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## Aliph Ahmed

KapitaanAli said:


> The FOC configuration is as different from what it was supposed to be 10 years ago, as your in-laws' current feelings about you from when you got married.
> 
> And yes, the FOC is done. The image you quoted is that of the Naval LCA.



No matter what twist you indians give, LCA is a failed project. It was from the very beginning because as i said earlier: a flawed design can only go so far.

You can fix 10 things and call it mk1. 20 things and call it mk2 and whatever. Dorsnt change the fact that indian aeronautical base is unable to cope with anything more than just assembling planes.

Talk to me when threre are at least two lca squadrons stationed at front line and not a handful at Sulur which is like 100 + miles away from pak border.


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## Goku

Aliph Ahmed said:


> No matter what twist you indians give, LCA is a failed project. It was from the very beginning because as i said earlier: a flawed design can only go so far.
> 
> You can fix 10 things and call it mk1. 20 things and call it mk2 and whatever. Dorsnt change the fact that indian aeronautical base is unable to cope with anything more than just assembling planes.
> 
> Talk to me when threre are at least two lca squadrons stationed at front line and not a handful at Sulur which is like 100 + miles away from pak border.


You should be happy that we are failing right? Dont u worry about us


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## Aliph Ahmed

Goku said:


> You should be happy that we are failing right? Dont u worry about us



No one is worried. Lol. 

Just irritated when indians cannot stop boasting about something that even after 30+ years is no where ready.

Stop talking about it and no one will talk about it. One example being Marut. Lol


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## halupridol

KapitaanAli said:


> HAL marketing Mk1A:
> 
> View attachment 604447
> 
> 
> First delivery is still 2023.
> 
> Is HAL removing the HUD in favour of a more advanced HMDS in Mk1A? Mk2 will keep the HUD, but it's an ADA design. I don't see it in the graphic of the jet.


U didnt answer me regarding mk1a?
Let me tag @Water Car Engineer too.
Why dpsu adamant on contract signing for integration of aesa(integration apparently being a nonissue)
Thr reluctance on coming up with a flying mk1a citing excuses of contract signing,resource n time constraints seem just hogwash coz all this while they got ample amount of resources/time for trophy projects like sport/navy(without any actuall "contract signing" or any hope of perspective orders ever)
I chcked HVT tweets,,,ahh well he too seems to have become addicted to chai biskut,,,supposedly hard work is being done on mk1a currently.
Announced in 2015,,thts 5 yrs,,,same airframe only actual upgrade being aesa radar.
Easy integration takes so much time?
Inse ho payega??


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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> No one is worried. Lol.
> 
> Just irritated when indians cannot stop boasting about something that even after 30+ years is no where ready.
> 
> Stop talking about it and no one will talk about it. One example being Marut. Lol



Sir, design, testing and development required lot of still and infrastructure.

It would be acceptable if your country was designed and developed any aircraft including trainer.

So before critising, pls have a look and check... How many countries are able to design and develop fighter aircraft..


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## KapitaanAli

halupridol said:


> U didnt answer me regarding mk1a?
> Let me tag @Water Car Engineer too.
> Why dpsu adamant on contract signing for integration of aesa(integration apparently being a nonissue)
> Thr reluctance on coming up with a flying mk1a citing excuses of contract signing,resource n time constraints seem just hogwash coz all this while they got ample amount of resources/time for trophy projects like sport/navy(without any actuall "contract signing" or any hope of perspective orders ever)
> I chcked HVT tweets,,,ahh well he too seems to have become addicted to chai biskut,,,supposedly hard work is being done on mk1a currently.
> Announced in 2015,,thts 5 yrs,,,same airframe only actual upgrade being aesa radar.
> Easy integration takes so much time?
> Inse ho payega??


Surely an AESAR isn't just plug and play, and it won't be the exact same radar as in Jaguar. I just meant that HAL/ADA has the experience in radar integration. Mk1 to Mk1A isn't just the radar either, but it's the one with the most capability enhancement.

My thinking is that a modified LSP isn't too important for Mk1A development at the moment.

The LRU changes meant for weight reduction and ease of maintenance will be difficult to do on an existing airframe.
Some of the capability enhancements are already ported to Mk1 in service and is a continuing process. This makes the LSP partially redundant.
This leaves AESAR as the major thing that should be tested, but is it necessary to show it on a LSP before the order? It comes from an established player, and a smaller version is present on the Jaguar.
This means that the focus should be on the design and fabrication of Mk1A internals, i.e. the production version, instead of modifying the LSP. And this seems to be the work that's currently undergoing in HAL.

But soon we will certainly see the LSP flying with whatever that can be put on it. Perhaps right now it doesn't make enough sense to shift the focus to that.

As for NLCA, most work is done by ADA. HAL just makes some components for them. SPORT is a great idea from HAL and should be pursued, but not enough work is done on it for it to be called time-wasting.


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Sir, design, testing and development required lot of still and infrastructure.
> 
> It would be acceptable if your country was designed and developed any aircraft including trainer.
> 
> So before critising, pls have a look and check... How many countries are able to design and develop fighter aircraft..



Is this the best reason you can come up by hiding behind other countries' performances? Lol.

Jf17 has half Pakistani DNA in it. Again.. You can hide behind mig evolution theory as circulated by some sore grapes who also say they shot down an f16 and their proof : piece of amraaam that brought down the indian mki with an rcs of a taj mahal. Lollll


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## Aliph Ahmed

KapitaanAli said:


> But soon we will certainly see the LSP flying with whatever that can be put on it. Perhaps right now it doesn't make enough sense to shift the focus to that.
> 
> .



This seems to be most acceptable reason behind HAL and ADA logic.

Put in whatever it can fly with. Lol

The air craft is built around an engine. Then comes the body and characteristics and avionics to support it part.

All this requires a lot of " planning". You just dont put whatever you can put in it by gathering stuff from the world towards something that was suppposed to be indegnious from the very start (very first goal and objective - FAILED)

Changing the engine from f404 to f414 is same as attaching a more powerful firework to the brick. Mk1, mk2 or what not will not make much differrence.

The main reason to drop f404 was that lca ended up too heavy. So the indian went ahead of f414 which did give higher thrust but it was also more heavy. Same situation due to lack of planning

Did you know the handful of lca prototypes that india managed to built after 30+ years and at least two planes share same fuel filter to fly by taking turns are not the same physically? Loll


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## KapitaanAli

Aliph Ahmed said:


> This seems to be most acceptable reason behind HAL and ADA logic.
> 
> Put in whatever it can fly with. Lol


Please don't post if you don't know what the matter of discussion is. You seem to have been away from defence matters for years because of marital bliss. And that's healthy. Stay that way.



Aliph Ahmed said:


> Jf17 has half Pakistani DNA in it.


It has a significant wishlist from PAF incorporated in it. Like MKI for India, but without the indegenous components of it. This isn't R&D. But it shows that PAF is a capable air force that knows aerial warfare. Nothing more.

No more nonsense. Request other members not to reply, so that we don't go off-topic.


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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Is this the best reason you can come up by hiding behind other countries' performances? Lol.
> 
> Jf17 has half Pakistani DNA in it. Again.. You can hide behind mig evolution theory as circulated by some sore grapes who also say they shot down an f16 and their proof : piece of amraaam that brought down the indian mki with an rcs of a taj mahal. Lollll



Jf 17 is equal to su30mki development..... I could say then su30mki half indian DNA.

Again once you able yo design, test and develop any aircraft then do the criticism of India.


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Jf 17 is equal to su30mki development..... I could say then su30mki half indian DNA.
> 
> Again once you able yo design, test and develop any aircraft then do the criticism of India.



Do you have even one (1) full LCA Squadron at frontline even after 30+ years???

If not then indian aeronautical base is good for just assembling planes and not any better than pakistan which "planned" and executed the jf17 project very well.

No idea which plane did india successfully designed, test and developed. Definitely not LCA:

Design - Fail
Engine - Fail
Radar - fail
Material - fail
Time lines - Super fail

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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Do you have even one (1) full LCA Squadron at frontline even after 30+ years???
> 
> If not then indian aeronautical base is good for just assembling planes and not any better than pakistan which "planned" and executed the jf17 project very well.
> 
> Yes. We all know what happened to the india. Su30 mki with an rcs of Taj Mahal when it faced off jf 17 on feb 27.


Jf 17 role was not more than your mirage fighter..... Just bomb and try to escape at the earliest.

Only missile range make the difference and f16 shoot down a mig 21.

Missile issue has been sorted out with purchased with better bvr recently. It has nothing to do with RCS.... Su30mki has capability to detect f16 before f16 will seen her but India was having only missiles with range max 80km..... F16 around 100km.

But because of jammer and other technology capability, su 30mki was able to Dodge the incoming missiles.. However, you can believed on Pakistan views to (far from truth) shot down mki


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> But because of jammer and other technology capability, su 30mki was able to Dodge the incoming missiles.. However, you can believed on Pakistan views to (far from truth) shot down mki



Yes. 

Paf shot down a su 30 mki as well as mig 21. 

Paf also had confirmed lock on atleast 7 more indian planes but permission to sboot them down never came as they were already running away after seeing abhi flying on a parachute instead of plane. Loll

You can chose to believe your indian air force lies (far from truth).


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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Yes. Paf shot down a su 30 mki as well as mig 21.
> 
> You can chose to believe your indian air force lies (far from truth).


Be happy with this pakistani view



Aliph Ahmed said:


> Yes.
> 
> Paf shot down a su 30 mki as well as mig 21.
> 
> Paf also had confirmed lock on atleast 7 more indian planes but permission to sboot them down never came as they were already running away after seeing abhi flying on a parachute instead of plane. Loll
> 
> You can chose to believe your indian air force lies (far from truth).


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Be happy with this pakistani view




Back to same question:

Do you have even one (1) full LCA Squadron at frontline even after 30+ years???


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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Back to same question:
> 
> Do you have even one (1) full LCA Squadron at frontline even after 30+ years???



If you ask me then let you know my honest opinion.

Yes, it is around 5-7 delayed. We never expect that India will able to make 4th generation fighter before 2010... Because we were not having such capability... Only few countries have such capability such as US, Russia, China, EU and France.

However, it should have ready to induct from 2015.

Its a baby step for us to be self capable. Just like started making and design Indian Navy ships....

Yes, it is late but now provided opportunity and platform to work on new fighter aircraft's.

Only three countries can make 100% fighters I.e us, Russia and France..... China still depended for engine...

Still, we had to go very long.... Be a self sufficient.

Nut, bold and paint job, we are doing from past many years


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## anathema

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Back to same question:
> 
> Do you have even one (1) full LCA Squadron at frontline even after 30+ years???



Sq 45 - Flying Daggers . Google it



Aliph Ahmed said:


> Yes.
> 
> Paf shot down a su 30 mki as well as mig 21.
> 
> Paf also had confirmed lock on atleast 7 more indian planes but permission to sboot them down never came as they were already running away after seeing abhi flying on a parachute instead of plane. Loll
> 
> You can chose to believe your indian air force lies (far from truth).



I see you are new guy on the block. Do one thing - ask all the estimed members of the forum , crawl on internet, ask your DGISPR - please get me one picture of radar image which shows Su 30 blip and its disapperance OR forget radar picture - get me one ELINT recording. 
Indians on the other hand - have clearly displayed radar images to the best of their abilities. 

Lock on 7 planes ..my foot. Go back - read more and then come back



Raj-Hindustani said:


> If you ask me then let you know my honest opinion.
> 
> Yes, it is around 5-7 delayed. We never expect that India will able to make 4th generation fighter before 2010... Because we were not having such capability... Only few countries have such capability such as US, Russia, China, EU and France.
> 
> However, it should have ready to induct from 2015.
> 
> Its a baby step for us to be self capable. Just like started making and design Indian Navy ships....
> 
> Yes, it is late but now provided opportunity and platform to work on new fighter aircraft's.
> 
> Only three countries can make 100% fighters I.e us, Russia and France..... China still depended for engine...
> 
> Still, we had to go very long.... Be a self sufficient.
> 
> Nut, bold and paint job, we are doing from past many years



You sir - are doing an extremely poor job in placing your view point. You should place your arguments better.


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## Raj-Hindustani

anathema said:


> You sir - are doing an extremely poor job in placing your view point. You should place your arguments better.



Sir ji- I have my opinion, you have yours and Pakistani friends have their...

Half tejas is at least 5-7 years (delayed).

Delayed have become in our DNA now.... We announce any project a long back on papers but can't complete the project on time.

[QUOTE="Aliph Ahmed, post: 12081671.

Case closed. Lca = FAIL[/QUOTE]

You are wrong sir, proof me that your current jf17 is technologically better than current hal tejas....

It was totally depends on your requirements.. Paf wanted a aircraft even not being fully developed just like jf 17 block 3.

But, IAF was not wanted. Their requirements were getting change by time to time. Now, latest hal tejas mark1a specification are same as jf 17 block 3.

The difference is that you inducted jf 17 aircraft before being fully developed. Example; air refueling- pak already inducted the aircraft and iaf wad not ready to accept without air refueling feature


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## anathema

Aliph Ahmed said:


> I stopped reading your post after this


coz you dont have an answer. Dont care if you have kanedian or lahoori english as long as the points are well made. Typical colonial slaves



> I asked if it is a full squadron? NO


Yes full squadron. All 16 planes handed over. Based in sulur , tamil nadu.



> I asked if it is at front line? NO.


Lmao. You just came up with a new success metric that air forces around the world are yet to discover. Please explain what exactly is front line ? Its interesting , and dont mind explaining in canadian english.

And ohh while you are replying to me in quebec english , read up huskit interview with Tejas pilot


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## Aliph Ahmed

Talk is cheap 

Show me a non indian article or link confirming that india has inducted one full lca squadron. With serial numbers. 

Front line is pak border. Now tell us how far is Sulur, TN. Combat ready planes are deployed at front lines.

Bottom line: LCA is FAIL!!



Raj-Hindustani said:


> ]
> 
> You are wrong sir, proof me that your current jf17 is technologically better than current hal tejas....
> 
> It was totally depends on your requirements.. Paf wanted a aircraft even not being fully developed just like jf 17 block 3.
> 
> But, IAF was not wanted. Their requirements were getting change by time to time. Now, latest hal tejas mark1a specification are same as jf 17 block 3.
> 
> The difference is that you inducted jf 17 aircraft before being fully developed. Example; air refueling- pak already inducted the aircraft and iaf wad not ready to accept without air refueling feature



Will be sticking to lca as it is lca topic. 

Either way, comparing a deployed at frontline plane with a deployed in front of park plane is comparing oranges vs apples.

It is called planning and execution. Lca failed. Engine failed. Radar fail. Timelines.. Super fail.


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## anathema

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Talk is cheap
> 
> Show me a non indian article or link confirming that india has inducted one full lca squadron. With serial numbers.


Yo! Canadian guy argument doesnt work like that. Burden of proof lies with you on substantiating your view point. Didnt they teach you this is kaneda?
Anyway to tell you out google Lca sp16 flight. It was mar 2019. Serial production 16. 16th plane of squadron. You can do all the research you want.



> Front line is pak border. Now tell us how far is Sulur, TN. Combat ready planes are deployed at front lines.


Wow you are the guy. From where did you get this knowledge about front line deployment. Bataiye ? Does this happen in Royal Canadian Air force ? This is a.new paradigm. You are equating fighters to tanks or bicycles. Fighter surge operations can happen in moments notice. It can reach forward areas in under 30 mins or redeployed over there.
Now the only reason its deployed in Sulur is ? Ask why? Cos its near to Bangalore, so a new fighter plane may encounter teething issues which needs to be solved



> Bottom line: LCA is FAIL!!


Bottom line , you dont know $hit. Go back and read more. 
Arrgghh why do i bother with kids. Ignore .


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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Talk is cheap
> 
> Show me a non indian article or link confirming that india has inducted one full lca squadron. With serial numbers.
> 
> Front line is pak border. Now tell us how far is Sulur, TN. Combat ready planes are deployed at front lines.
> 
> Bottom line: LCA is FAIL!!
> 
> 
> 
> Will be sticking to lca as it is lca topic.
> 
> Either way, comparing a deployed at frontline plane with a deployed in front of park plane is comparing oranges vs apples.
> 
> It is called planning and execution. Lca failed. Engine failed. Radar fail. Timelines.. Super fail.



Again I will say that it's your point of view.

Our view is different, you don't had much needed fighter plane. Because you were having only one decent fighter f16 aircraft in your inventory. You inducted the jf 17 even not being fully developed.

Indian case is just different, we were already having 4th generation aircraft's in front line duty (su30mki, mirage 2000 and mig 29). We were not in hurray to induct a under developed aircraft. Many critical features are added and getting add in jf 17 after inducted in inventory.

Again, pls technology prove that jf 17 aircraft is superior to present hal tejas.

Overall, hal tejas mk1a will be future of Indian airforce just like jf17 block 3 for Pakistan.

But, our front line deployed aircraft's will be much more capable aircrafts like su 30mki, Rafael, AMCA... Etc


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## Aliph Ahmed

anathema said:


> .
> Now the only reason its deployed in Sulur is ? Ask why? Cos its near to Bangalore, so a new fighter plane may encounter teething issues which needs to be solved



You call LCA a new fighter plane even after 30+ years? Lmao

LCA STILL has teething issues even after 30+ years?

Hahahaah


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Jf 17 role was not more than your mirage fighter..... Just bomb and try to escape at the earliest.



What is LCA? Down syndromed Indian version of Mirage? How many modern delta planes (J10, rafael, eurofighter and Grippen) are flying out there today? Show me ONE without canards.

LCA is super FAIL. A perfect case study on how not build an aircraft if the only knowledge base is assembling of planes.

Karachi from Sulur is 1,800+ km away. Azad Kashmir from Sulur is 2,000+ km away. With a combat radius of only 500 km and NO radar and still in its IOC configuration, unless LCA has secret Klingon/Indian fantasy technology, it is FAIL.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Karachi from Sulur is 1,800+ km away. Azad Kashmir from Sulur is 2,000+ km away. With a combat radius of only 500 km and NO radar and still in its IOC configuration, unless LCA has secret Klingon/Indian fantasy technology, it is FAIL.



Do you know combat range of jf 17? I don't understand, why you quoted above?

*Combat range:* 1,350 km (840 mi, 730 nmi)
And what about your major cities from International border? likewise Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi etc..


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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Do you know combat range of jf 17? I don't understand, why you quoted above?
> 
> *Combat range:* 1,350 km (840 mi, 730 nmi)
> And what about your major cities from International border? likewise Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi etc..



Combat range of LCA is almost one third of jf17 and still not combat ready even after 30+ years.

Must you forcefully insert jf17 to defend your failed LCA? Cant you defend fail lca on its own? And talk about LCA in its current state and not what it WILLLLL have. Been hearing about what it willlllll have for the last 20 years and still a fail plane!!!

Only thing it has proven is that it can go up and come down and then go up and come down and then go up and come down and so on... (5,000+ 20 min sorties)....... Lolllll

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## Raj-Hindustani

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Combat range of LCA is almost one third of jf17 and still not combat ready even after 30+ years.
> 
> Must you forcefully insert jf17 to defend your failed LCA? Cant you defend fail lca on its own? And talk about LCA in its current state and not what it WILLLLL have. Been hearing about what it willlllll have for the last 20 years and still a fail plane!!!
> 
> Only thing it has proven is that it can go up and come down and then go up and come down and then go up and come down and so on... (5,000+ 20 min sorties)....... Lolllll



We don't need 1300km for hal tejas.. 500 km is enough ( combat ratio).....

If it was failed then might be in musiam but again any aircraft designed, development and production is just different level... And only fee countries can do like US, Russia, China, france, Sweden and EU.

Nut and bold job can do any country and we are doing from last many years.

Its little late but we are happy that we are still taking steps. It is always something better then nothing

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## Aliph Ahmed

Raj-Hindustani said:


> We don't need 1300km for hal tejas.. 500 km is enough ( combat ratio).....
> 
> If it was failed then might be in musician but again any aircraft designed, development and production is just different level... And only fee countries can do like US, Russia, China, france, Sweden and EU.
> 
> Nut and bold job can do any country and we are doing from last many years.
> 
> Its little late but we are happy that we are still taking steps. It is always something better then nothing



Good luck. I am "SURE" Pakistanis will rather have you Indians induct more LCAs (with 500 km combat range) than Rafales.....


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## halupridol

Raj-Hindustani said:


> We don't need 1300km for hal tejas.. 500 km is enough ( combat ratio).....
> 
> If it was failed then might be in musician but again any aircraft designed, development and production is just different level... And only fee countries can do like US, Russia, China, france, Sweden and EU.
> 
> Nut and bold job can do any country and we are doing from last many years.
> 
> Its little late but we are happy that we are still taking steps. It is always something better then nothing


Do u u understand what is being discussed?
TIMELINES???
Let me give u examples,,,,father says we need a fighter pilot in our family,,,pappu son stands up n screams,,,yes papa i will do it.
I will become an ace fghter pilot,,best of the Aces,,will be capable of this,,comparable to that.easy peasy lemon squeasy.
Sadly the son cudnt clear matriculation in his first try or the subsequent attempts,,,he kept trying nevertheless ultimately,aftr decades of failure, cleared matriculation n proudly declared to his father tht now he is almost an ace fighter pilot n wants money to buy books only to realise tht eligibility criteria has changed,,,n now to become a pilot an applicant needs to clear 10+2 with physics chemistry n math.but but but its great,,,,coz it was first time n he will do it in nxt time,,bravo.
Now tht son is jumping again for mwf/amca,,,,akin to phd n post doc,,n bhakts confident on thr success n jumping too.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Jf 17 role was not more than your mirage fighter..... Just bomb and try to escape at the earliest.


Thunders were there for escorts too



Raj-Hindustani said:


> Missile issue has been sorted out with purchased with better bvr recently.


Which one? R77-1?


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## Raj-Hindustani

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Thunders were there for escorts too
> 
> 
> Which one? R77-1?



Thanks for asking without trolling.. If someone asks proper way than we could have healthy discussions.
Yes, agreed! Thunders might be there for escorts too as well.

R-77 RVV-SD missile...


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## Aliph Ahmed

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Which one? R77-1?



I think he is talking about Meteor which have not been provided to India as of date. But you know indians are: it WILLLLL have this and that and you do not have this now.

Last i read, initial batch wasn't suppose to come with Meteor but India requested France to send them along. France has not approved the request yet.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Aliph Ahmed said:


> I think he is talking about Meteor which have not been provided to India as of date. But you know indians are: it WILLLLL have this and that and you do not have this now.
> 
> Last i read, initial batch wasn't suppose to come with Meteor but India requested France to send them along. France has not approved the request yet.


No. They had ordered tha R77-1s after 27 Feb

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## PakFactor

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Combat range of LCA is almost one third of jf17 and still not combat ready even after 30+ years.
> 
> Must you forcefully insert jf17 to defend your failed LCA? Cant you defend fail lca on its own? And talk about LCA in its current state and not what it WILLLLL have. Been hearing about what it willlllll have for the last 20 years and still a fail plane!!!
> 
> Only thing it has proven is that it can go up and come down and then go up and come down and then go up and come down and so on... (5,000+ 20 min sorties)....... Lolllll



In last 15 years I have traded in my Infiniti and gone through three different designs and spec(s) and this plane is still stuck. Lol

I don’t engage anyone on LCA these Indians are living in a different realty. Talk about LCA but run to France for more fighters.


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## CONNAN

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> No. They had ordered tha R77-1s after 27 Feb


 After balakot incident we ( GOI) in negotiations with russia to order 300 in total 80–100 km (R-77), 110 km (R-77-1) I am not able to find this the order went through or still on the table . since there is one section in the media claiming to have already placed the order and other is not

Coming to meteor there are plans to integrate it to SU 30 and M2K
SU 30 MDBA said out right no since it is a russian platforum amd for M2K they said it is not cost effective. But there is another report that MDBA UK division is ok to integrate but unable to verify it hope someone here sheds some light 
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...To_Buy_New_missiles_For_Su_30MKI__MiG_29_Jets
https://theprint.in/defence/wiser-a...issiles-worth-700-million-from-russia/249553/


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## Ali_Baba

No way the UK will integrate onto the Su30MKI... Meteor will be tied to European platforms. Period.


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## JohnWick

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Again I will say that it's your point of view.
> 
> Our view is different, you don't had much needed fighter plane. Because you were having only one decent fighter f16 aircraft in your inventory. You inducted the jf 17 even not being fully developed.
> 
> Indian case is just different, we were already having 4th generation aircraft's in front line duty (su30mki, mirage 2000 and mig 29). We were not in hurray to induct a under developed aircraft. Many critical features are added and getting add in jf 17 after inducted in inventory.
> 
> Again, pls technology prove that jf 17 aircraft is superior to present hal tejas.
> 
> Overall, hal tejas mk1a will be future of Indian airforce just like jf17 block 3 for Pakistan.
> 
> But, our front line deployed aircraft's will be much more capable aircrafts like su 30mki, Rafael, AMCA... Etc


Your Su-30 mki if billions of dollars are not invested on them will become another mig-21.....
36 rafales are too small in number for IAF against J-20 J-10C and Su-35 of PLA and
70 PAF JF-17 Thunder block 3.
Mirage 2000 proves to be an absolute shit against the current Block 2 of thunder on 27 feb....As we had easily jammed their radars....
And it is not India where you can lie openly
IAF used 60 years old mig-21 as its front line fighter.....Crashing here and there and you are saying that we are reluctant to induct an under developed fighter????


----------



## THE SEEKER

Quoting one of a good posts in twitter I usually follow
Saurav Jha
@SJha1618

The most laughable argument is the one about 'how can you call it indigenous when it has xyz imported content'. You think design & integration just drops from a tree? It is the systems-level IP that counts today. And most components can be indigenized given sizeable orders.


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## Raj-Hindustani

JohnWick said:


> Your Su-30 mki if billions of dollars are not invested on them will become another mig-21.....
> 36 rafales are too small in number for IAF against J-20 J-10C and Su-35 of PLA and
> 70 PAF JF-17 Thunder block 3.
> Mirage 2000 proves to be an absolute shit against the current Block 2 of thunder on 27 feb....As we had easily jammed their radars....
> And it is not India where you can lie openly
> IAF used 60 years old mig-21 as its front line fighter.....Crashing here and there and you are saying that we are reluctant to induct an under developed fighter????




*Your Su-30 mki if billions of dollars are not invested on them will become another mig-21..*...

Sorry, it would not. Su 30mki is just like jf 17... Regarding Manufacturing! We are also doing in-house maintenance (I.e engine also) and only few parts need to import...

*36 rafales are too small in number for IAF against J-20 J-10C and Su-35 of PLA and
70 PAF JF-17 Thunder block 3.*

Anyone is fooling by himself if he thinks that China will come and fight for them.

*Mirage 2000 proves to be an absolute shit against the current Block 2 of thunder on 27 feb....As we had easily jammed their radars....*

No, mirage 2000 is far better than Jf 17 2, even mirage 2000 was able to shoot down a f16 in a past... Pls read the history carefully..

*And it is not India where you can lie openly
IAF used 60 years old mig-21 as its front line fighter.....Crashing here and there and you are saying that we are reluctant to induct an under developed fighter????*

Your mirage rose fighter and f 7 fighter aircraft also have good crash records but still in use....

We should not be so much hurray to induct a aircraft and immediately after 5-7 years, go for upgradation...

Half tejas is a good step to become self sufficient for new making aircraft's.


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## JohnWick

Raj-Hindustani said:


> *Your Su-30 mki if billions of dollars are not invested on them will become another mig-21..*...
> 
> Sorry, it would not. Su 30mki is just like jf 17... Regarding Manufacturing! We are also doing in-house maintenance (I.e engine also) and only few parts need to import...
> 
> *36 rafales are too small in number for IAF against J-20 J-10C and Su-35 of PLA and
> 70 PAF JF-17 Thunder block 3.*
> 
> Anyone is fooling by himself if he thinks that China will come and fight for them.
> 
> *Mirage 2000 proves to be an absolute shit against the current Block 2 of thunder on 27 feb....As we had easily jammed their radars....*
> 
> No, mirage 2000 is far better than Jf 17 2, even mirage 2000 was able to shoot down a f16 in a past... Pls read the history carefully..
> 
> *And it is not India where you can lie openly
> IAF used 60 years old mig-21 as its front line fighter.....Crashing here and there and you are saying that we are reluctant to induct an under developed fighter????*
> 
> Your mirage rose fighter and f 7 fighter aircraft also have good crash records but still in use....
> 
> We should not be so much hurray to induct a aircraft and immediately after 5-7 years, go for upgradation...
> 
> Half tejas is a good step to become self sufficient for new making aircraft's.


Su-30 mki and JF-17 Thunder are different as respect to the maintenance....
One uses a single engine and other is a twin engine.... 
JFT costs much less flight hours than that of the su-30 and a very high safe flight hours as respect to the Su 30 mki.....
None of the air craft it's crashed since 2012.....

Mirage 2000 it's no where near F-16 .....
but in the wizard of oz you live even a mig-21 can fo the same job....So not a new one. 

JF-17 is the main reason why PAF didn't go bother about mirage 2000 procurement in early 2000.....

JF-17 uses state of the art radar jamming EW system.....
And it is also not a fan made story....

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## Raj-Hindustani

JohnWick said:


> Su-30 mki and JF-17 Thunder are different as respect to the maintenance....
> One uses a single engine and other is a twin engine....
> JFT costs much less flight hours than that of the su-30 and a very high safe flight hours as respect to the Su 30 mki.....
> None of the air craft it's crashed since 2012.....
> 
> Mirage 2000 it's no where near F-16 .....
> but in the wizard of oz you live even a mig-21 can fo the same job....So not a new one.
> 
> JF-17 is the main reason why PAF didn't go bother about mirage 2000 procurement in early 2000.....
> 
> JF-17 uses state of the art radar jamming EW system.....
> And it is also not a fan made story....



*
Thunder are different as respect to the maintenance....
One uses a single engine and other is a twin engine....*

Regarding maintenance, both are OEM products. You totally depends on China because they developed/ tested the aircraft. Also, parts are being used are Chinese's... Same goes to MKI... Manufacturing the parts, does not means.... OEM tags and dependency get removed completely.


*JFT costs much less flight hours than that of the su-30 and a very high safe flight hours as respect to the Su 30 mki.....
None of the air craft it's crashed since 2012.....
*
Mki - 7 crashed in 20 years and flying around 200+...... Not a bad safety record.

Jf 17 - 3 crashed in 10 years...

There is no compression mki comes under different class... Jf 17 2 is just comparable to half tejas.


*Mirage 2000 it's no where near F-16 .....
but in the wizard of oz you live even a mig-21 can fo the same job....So not a new one.*

Totally wrong...

*JF-17 uses state of the art radar jamming EW system.....
And it is also not a fan made story....
*
Technically, comes the same hal tejas level..

Hak tejas mk1a will be future of Indian air force... Again, it will be second line defense because we will have more advanced fighters plane in front line duty... Su 30mki, Rafael etc...


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## JohnWick

Raj-Hindustani said:


> *Thunder are different as respect to the maintenance....
> One uses a single engine and other is a twin engine....*
> 
> Regarding maintenance, both are OEM products. You totally depends on China because they developed/ tested the aircraft. Also, parts are being used are Chinese's... Same goes to MKI... Manufacturing the parts, does not means.... OEM tags and dependency get removed completely.
> 
> 
> *JFT costs much less flight hours than that of the su-30 and a very high safe flight hours as respect to the Su 30 mki.....
> None of the air craft it's crashed since 2012.....
> *
> Mki - 7 crashed in 20 years and flying around 200+...... Not a bad safety record.
> 
> Jf 17 - 3 crashed in 10 years...
> 
> There is no compression mki comes under different class... Jf 17 2 is just comparable to half tejas.
> 
> 
> *Mirage 2000 it's no where near F-16 .....
> but in the wizard of oz you live even a mig-21 can fo the same job....So not a new one.*





Raj-Hindustani said:


> *Thunder are different as respect to the maintenance....
> One uses a single engine and other is a twin engine....*
> 
> Regarding maintenance, both are OEM products. You totally depends on China because they developed/ tested the aircraft. Also, parts are being used are Chinese's... Same goes to MKI... Manufacturing the parts, does not means.... OEM tags and dependency get removed completely.
> 
> 
> *JFT costs much less flight hours than that of the su-30 and a very high safe flight hours as respect to the Su 30 mki.....
> None of the air craft it's crashed since 2012.....
> *
> Mki - 7 crashed in 20 years and flying around 200+...... Not a bad safety record.
> 
> Jf 17 - 3 crashed in 10 years...
> 
> There is no compression mki comes under different class... Jf 17 2 is just comparable to half tejas.
> 
> 
> *Mirage 2000 it's no where near F-16 .....
> but in the wizard of oz you live even a mig-21 can fo the same job....So not a new one.*
> 
> Totally wrong...
> 
> *JF-17 uses state of the art radar jamming EW system.....
> And it is also not a fan made story....
> *
> Technically, comes the same hal tejas level..
> 
> Hak tejas mk1a will be future of Indian air force... Again, it will be second line defense because we will have more advanced fighters plane in front line duty... Su 30mki, Rafael etc...


2 jft are crashed till date.....
And jft is also very modren with respect to mirage 2000
Mirage 2000 cockpit




jft cockpit




With cutting edge EW suit....
And with higher weaponry
Like SD-10E defined as Chinese AMRAAM
AIM-120C.....
And evolving.....


----------



## Raj-Hindustani

JohnWick said:


> 2 jft are crashed till date.....
> And jft is also very modren with respect to mirage 2000
> Mirage 2000 cockpit
> View attachment 607161
> jft cockpit
> View attachment 607162
> 
> With cutting edge EW suit....
> And with higher weaponry
> Like SD-10E defined as Chinese AMRAA AIM-120C.....
> And evolving.....




Its Indian Mirage 2000 (Upgraded) cockpit....... Again, it is easily comparable and threat to F16 with MICA missiles.






Let comes and talk about original Thread on Hal Tejas..... just trolling is not a good idea ...

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## PakShaheen79

Q.1 : Have all Mirage-2000H have been upgraded?
Q.2: Did Upgraded aircraft take part in Balakot failed strike?


----------



## anathema

PakShaheen79 said:


> Q.1 : Have all Mirage-2000H have been upgraded?


No. Not all - it still is going on. Dont know how many of them have been upgraded.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Q.2: Did Upgraded aircraft take part in Balakot failed strike?


Tomato - TAMATO. Balakot strike was a success and fully achieved its political objectives. Upgraded aircraft was not used for deep strike. Upgraded Mirage was on CAP duty in which JF17 absolutely refused to engage.



JohnWick said:


> Your Su-30 mki if billions of dollars are not invested on them will become another mig-21.....
> 36 rafales are too small in number for IAF against J-20 J-10C and Su-35 of PLA and
> 70 PAF JF-17 Thunder block 3.
> Mirage 2000 proves to be an absolute shit against the current Block 2 of thunder on 27 feb....*As we had easily jammed their radars....*
> And it is not India where you can lie openly
> IAF used 60 years old mig-21 as its front line fighter.....Crashing here and there and you are saying that we are reluctant to induct an under developed fighter????



I see the Gafoora effect . Man does your ISPR department do their job well. Anyways lies come back to bite. Heres something for you to research - JF17 refused to engage with M2K, i mean absolutely. If you can prove otherwise- with an official article then i am all hears. I am still waiting for Su 30 MKI kill from radar intercepts.


----------



## PakShaheen79

anathema said:


> No. Not all - it still is going on. Dont know how many of them have been upgraded.
> 
> 
> Tomato - TAMATO. Balakot strike was a success and fully achieved its political objectives. Upgraded aircraft was not used for deep strike. *Upgraded Mirage was on CAP duty in which JF17 absolutely refused to engage.*



Thanks.
Same is true for Upgraded Mirages which supposed to be a much superior aircraft. Actually, you are wondering why did JF-17's pilot didn't make the same mistake committed by your WC Abhi. It is called professional conduct after receiving clear instructions on secure channels. 

Achieved its political objectives ... Hmm... Please care to explain how did that happen without achieving anything on ground?


----------



## anathema

PakShaheen79 said:


> Thanks.
> Same is true for Upgraded Mirages which supposed to be a much superior aircraft. Actually, you are wondering why did JF-17's pilot didn't make the same mistake committed by your WC Abhi. *It is called professional conduct after receiving clear instructions on secure channels. *


Maybe or maybe not. All we know is that CAP Mirages tried to engage with JF17 - but it kept going cold, refused to be engaged. Perhaps that may be the strategy - one will never know. 
With regards to your secure channels comment. Yes - Loud and clear. That discrepancy is now being removed on war footing with ODL and SDR.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Achieved its political objectives ... Hmm... Please care to explain how did that happen without achieving anything on ground?


Indias political objective is two fold- (a) to create a space where conventional conflict can be held. It created that space on 26th Feb. (b) to go after perpetrators - it achieved this as well.
PAF's and broadly speaking PAK armed forces objective was singular (a) Appear to be restoring status quo to placate domestic audience. PAK armed forces achieved its objective as well.


----------



## PakShaheen79

anathema said:


> Indias political objective is two fold- (a) to create a space where conventional conflict can be held. It created that space on 26th Feb. (b) to go after perpetrators - it achieved this as well.
> PAF's and broadly speaking PAK armed forces objective was singular (a) Appear to be restoring status quo to placate domestic audience. PAK armed forces achieved its objective as well.



Ok. From Pakistan's perspective, Indian attempt met with a complete failure. Killing a crow was all what was achieved. Pakistan successfully called off the Indian bluff of failing the Pakistan's conventional deterrence within 30 hours by 1. Bombing military installation in IoK, 2. By Detecting and forcing Indian submarine out 3. Denying India a ballistic missile strike. After 27/2 .. Indian military failed to climb up the escalation ladder itself destroying the idea of a limited war under nuclear overhang!


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## JohnWick

anathema said:


> No. Not all - it still is going on. Dont know how many of them have been upgraded.
> 
> 
> Tomato - TAMATO. Balakot strike was a success and fully achieved its political objectives. Upgraded aircraft was not used for deep strike. Upgraded Mirage was on CAP duty in which JF17 absolutely refused to engage.
> 
> 
> 
> I see the Gafoora effect . Man does your ISPR department do their job well. Anyways lies come back to bite. Heres something for you to research - JF17 refused to engage with M2K, i mean absolutely. If you can prove otherwise- with an official article then i am all hears. I am still waiting for Su 30 MKI kill from radar intercepts.


don't burn man


----------



## Comfortably Numb

anathema said:


> No. Not all - it still is going on. Dont know how many of them have been upgraded.
> 
> 
> Tomato - TAMATO. Balakot strike was a success and fully achieved its political objectives. Upgraded aircraft was not used for deep strike. Upgraded Mirage was on CAP duty in which JF17 absolutely refused to engage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see the Gafoora effect . Man does your ISPR department do their job well. Anyways lies come back to bite. Heres something for you to research - JF17 refused to engage with M2K, i mean absolutely. If you can prove otherwise- with an official article then i am all hears. I am still waiting for Su 30 MKI kill from radar intercepts.


1-His name is Ghafoor
2-"if only we had rafales......"
3- You are full of shit


----------



## anathema

PakShaheen79 said:


> Ok. From Pakistan's perspective, Indian attempt met with a complete failure.


From a Pakistani perspective - its fine. Like i said. PAF and Pak armed forces achieved its objective. 



PakShaheen79 said:


> Killing a crow was all what was achieved.


40 days to give a tour of neighborhood site - sure COWS were the only living organisms that were killed. Gafoor did his job well , with utmost sincerity. Pity he was passed off for promotion.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Pakistan successfully called off the Indian bluff of failing the Pakistan's conventional deterrence within 30 hours by 1. Bombing military installation in IoK,


Every bomb of yours fell short of target by 500 mtrs to more than a KM. It just means poor employment of stand off weapons. But PAF is a professional air force - this will be corrected immediately.



PakShaheen79 said:


> 2. By Detecting and forcing Indian submarine out 3. Denying India a ballistic missile strike. After 27/2 .. Indian military failed to climb up the escalation ladder itself destroying the idea of a limited war under nuclear overhang!


With regards to ballistic missiles - how did you deny India that oppurtunity. I dont know of this. India did not climb escalation ladder because it met its objectives. Also the utter capitulation on PAK's part to return back Abhinandan - it hoped for cessation of hostilities. It got what it wanted.



Comfortably Numb said:


> 1-His name is Ghafoor
> 2-"if only we had rafales......"
> 3- You are full of shit



If only we had rafales - is a perfectly acceptable statement. If you cannot process it then its your problem. Our generals have much more freehand to speak. We dont put generals in house arrest due to a difference of opinion

You are full of shit is a statement resorted by people who are incompetent and jingoistic. Absolutely devoid of facts.


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## Haris Ali2140

anathema said:


> From a Pakistani perspective - its fine. Like i said. PAF and Pak armed forces achieved its objective.
> 
> 
> 40 days to give a tour of neighborhood site - sure COWS were the only living organisms that were killed. Gafoor did his job well , with utmost sincerity. Pity he was passed off for promotion.
> 
> 
> Every bomb of yours fell short of target by 500 mtrs to more than a KM. It just means poor employment of stand off weapons. But PAF is a professional air force - this will be corrected immediately.
> 
> 
> With regards to ballistic missiles - how did you deny India that oppurtunity. I dont know of this. India did not climb escalation ladder because it met its objectives. Also the utter capitulation on PAK's part to return back Abhinandan - it hoped for cessation of hostilities. It got what it wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> If only we had rafales - is a perfectly acceptable statement. If you cannot process it then its your problem. Our generals have much more freehand to speak. We dont put generals in house arrest due to a difference of opinion
> 
> You are full of shit is a statement resorted by people who are incompetent and jingoistic. Absolutely devoid of facts.



Bakakot building is still standing & was standing the very next day. BBC hindi and others news channel reported it from the sight. They were only not allowed into the building.

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## anathema

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Bakakot building is still standing & was standing the very next day. BBC hindi and others news channel reported it from the sight. They were only not allowed into the building.



Thank you. That is precisely the point. 
The structure was meant to stand. Any one who has followed syrian conflict and israels employment of Spice bomb munitions would know the impact and damage it does. The structure is gutted from inside. All the kinetic action happens inside. Externally and from a TOP view perspective - you wouldnt come to know. I am sure if you were stand close to building you would see its effects. ISPR did a fab job in organizing a sham tour of supposed journos who didnt have a clue. The tour happened 40 days after.

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## Robin rone

Indian MoD concludes price negotiations with HAL for 83 LCA Mk1A
Official sources told _Jane's_ on 18 February that the deal for the upgraded single-engined fighters is expected to be signed before the end of fiscal year 2019/20 (FY 2019/20) following approval of the procurement from the Cabinet Committee on Security,

So mk1a going to be formally ordered before march 31 2020? If happens India counter balancing jf17 bk3 development with it, 

https://www.janes.com/article/94369...ons-with-hal-for-83-lca-mk-1a-combat-aircraft


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## Ultima Thule

anathema said:


> Thank you. That is precisely the point.
> The structure was meant to stand. Any one who has followed syrian conflict and israels employment of Spice bomb munitions would know the impact and damage it does. The structure is gutted from inside. All the kinetic action happens inside. Externally and from a TOP view perspective - you wouldnt come to know. I am sure if you were stand close to building you would see its effects. ISPR did a fab job in organizing a sham tour of supposed journos who didnt have a clue. The tour happened 40 days after.


dude why don't you thinks if spice bomb penetrates inside doesn't effect the external of build what a fool you're, and inside bomb blast can cause sudden change in pressure INSIDE which can deform the building and satellite pics can any show deformation of building, i can show lots of youtube clips then perpetrators caused deformation of building get out of you fairy tails dude


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## anathema

seven0seven said:


> dude why don't you thinks if spice bomb penetrates inside doesn't effect the external of build what a fool you're, and inside bomb blast can cause sudden change in pressure INSIDE which can deform the building and satellite pics can any show deformation of building, i can show lots of youtube clips then perpetrators caused deformation of building get out of you fairy tails dude



Dude dude - why dont you search, research on Spice Bomb and its different variants. While you are at it - search for Syrian operations. You will get what you are looking for. You enlighten PDF audience as well. Hint - read carefully my statement above - TOP view will show no structural damage, but inside will be gutted out. Have fun.



Robin rone said:


> Indian MoD concludes price negotiations with HAL for 83 LCA Mk1A
> Official sources told _Jane's_ on 18 February that the deal for the upgraded single-engined fighters is expected to be signed before the end of fiscal year 2019/20 (FY 2019/20) following approval of the procurement from the Cabinet Committee on Security,
> 
> *So mk1a going to be formally ordered before march 31 2020? If happens India counter balancing jf17 bk3 development with it, *
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/94369...ons-with-hal-for-83-lca-mk-1a-combat-aircraft



This is great ! Only thing - India is not doing to counter balance Blk3 development. India is doing this to make its aerospace truly independent. Only remaining frontier is Engine.


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## Ultima Thule

anathema said:


> Dude dude - why dont you search, research on Spice Bomb and its different variants. While you are at it - search for Syrian operations. You will get what you are looking for. You enlighten PDF audience as well. Hint - read carefully my statement above - TOP view will show no structural damage, but inside will be gutted out. Have fun.


And causes no internal and external deformation because of sudden pressure changes,Its a simple physics dude, what ridiculous theory you have Dude


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## anathema

seven0seven said:


> And causes no internal and external deformation because of sudden pressure changes,Its a simple physics dude, what ridiculous theory you have Dude



Like i said. Search , research. Its not simple physics dude. These weapons are state of the art. Lockheed is now distributing Spice kits amongst all its fighters. Anyways to answer your question - it depends. If the structure targetted is an Apartment Building,then sure there will be deformation since load bearing structures inside may cave in. If the structure targetted is a shed with make shift living quarters then the external deformation will be close to none due to relative absence of load bearing structures and presence of exit points which can release kinetic pressure. I am no physics expert , but if you search on this deep enough then you will find what you are looking for.


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## Ultima Thule

anathema said:


> Like i said. Search , research. Its not simple physics dude. These weapons are state of the art. Lockheed is now distributing Spice kits amongst all its fighters. Anyways to answer your question - it depends. If the structure targetted is an Apartment Building,then sure there will be deformation since load bearing structures inside may cave in. If the structure targetted is a shed with make shift living quarters then the external deformation will be close to none due to relative absence of load bearing structures and presence of exit points which can release kinetic pressure. I am no physics expert , but if you search on this deep enough then you will find what you are looking for.


Don't be so stupid, structure must deform, because its a building not cave or mountain, and as for your tall claims off yours show me the proofs that Lockheed marketing spice kit among all its fighters and what do you mean those above troll, are you trying to say IAF didn't hit its intended target (Score direct Hit to the target) and as for your information i already knows lot the physics behind the spice type penetratorsor bombs against reinforce concrete targets, if you know basics of bombs please tell me what types of explosive warheads used by these bombs



anathema said:


> Like i said. Search , research. Its not simple physics dude. These weapons are state of the art. Lockheed is now distributing Spice kits amongst all its fighters. Anyways to answer your question - it depends. If the structure targetted is an Apartment Building,then sure there will be deformation since load bearing structures inside may cave in. If the structure targetted is a shed with make shift living quarters then the external deformation will be close to none due to relative absence of load bearing structures and presence of exit points which can release kinetic pressure. I am no physics expert , but if you search on this deep enough then you will find what you are looking for.


And stick to the topic dude this is Tejas discussion thread not spice bomb or 26 FEB 2019 discussion thread


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## anathema

seven0seven said:


> Don't be so stupid, structure must deform, because its a building not cave or mountain, and as for your tall claims off yours show me the proofs that Lockheed marketing spice kit among all its fighters


Your making me do your work. Why dont you search. 
Anyways heres official Lockheed- https://news.lockheedmartin.com/201...-To-Market-SPICE-Air-to-Surface-Guidance-Kits
There are further developements on this - you can follow IDF forums for an update on this.



seven0seven said:


> and what do you mean those above troll, are you trying to say IAF didn't hit its intended target (Score direct Hit to the target) and as for your information i already knows lot the physics behind the spice type penetratorsor bombs against reinforce concrete targets, if you know basics of bombs please tell me what types of explosive warheads used by these bombs


Acha - please educate all of us on different varieties of SPICE penetrators. I am asking you since you claim to know everything. Lets start from there. Oh by the way - you have used reinforced concrete targets; Looks like you are confusing this with bunker busting bombs - even there are enough content which illustrates similar mode of working.



seven0seven said:


> And stick to the topic dude this is Tejas discussion thread not spice bomb or 26 FEB 2019 discussion thread


You are right. This is Tejas thread. I dont want to derail the thread. Anything you would like to know about Tejas ?


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## Ultima Thule

anathema said:


> Your making me do your work. Why dont you search.
> Anyways heres official Lockheed- https://news.lockheedmartin.com/201...-To-Market-SPICE-Air-to-Surface-Guidance-Kits
> There are further developements on this - you can follow IDF forums for an update on this.


Only for export not used by USAF



anathema said:


> You are right. This is Tejas thread. I dont want to derail the thread. Anything you would like to know about Tejas ?


Thank you very much



anathema said:


> Acha - please educate all of us on different varieties of SPICE penetrators. I am asking you since you claim to know everything. Lets start from there. Oh by the way - you have used reinforced concrete targets; Looks like you are confusing this with bunker busting bombs - even there are enough content which illustrates similar mode of working.


So what is Spice if it is not a penetrator, please explain me


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## Novice09

Second squadron of LCA Tejas would be stationed at Pathankot or Sirsa Airbase (maybe)... On WESTERN BORDER for sure...

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## Haris Ali2140

seven0seven said:


> Only for export not used by USAF
> 
> 
> Thank you very much
> 
> 
> So what is Spice if it is not a penetrator, please explain me


Exactly. Spice is not a penetrator. Its a conversion kit to give stand off capability. Iy uses mk 93 and mk 94 GBU. Neither has anti penetration capabilities.


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## Ultima Thule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Exactly. Spice is not a penetrator. Its a conversion kit to give stand off capability. Iy uses mk 93 and mk 94 GBU. Neither has anti penetration capabilities.


If this is a glide general purpose bomb then how its penetrates to building of balakot, its should be explode on impact then


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## PakShaheen79

> 40 days to give a tour of neighborhood site - sure COWS were the only living organisms that were killed. Gafoor did his job well , with utmost sincerity. Pity he was passed off for promotion.



Pity, IAF or India failed to show the impact of Pakistani weapons even after a year so that world can form its own opinion about PAF's strike's accuracy or otherwise. It is GHAFOOR. OH, BTW, this is how the world has seen accuracy of IAF's strike.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indias-strike-on-balakot-a-very-precise-miss/
Accuracy of Spikes on ground...






> Every bomb of yours fell short of target by 500 mtrs to more than a KM. It just means poor employment of stand off weapons. But PAF is a professional air force - this will be corrected immediately.



And Govt. of Pakistan/FO/PAF ... all have explained the reason why it was so. PAF showed recorded footage of its stand-off weapon which was deliberately guided off-target. Where is SPIKE's footage? Where is footage of carters created by PAF's weapons which you r claiming 1/2 to 1 KM off target? Nothing! NADA..



> With regards to ballistic missiles - how did you deny India that oppurtunity. I dont know of this. India did not climb escalation ladder because it met its objectives. Also the utter capitulation on PAK's part to return back Abhinandan - it hoped for cessation of hostilities. It got what it wanted.



By simply making US intervene by bringing our BM launcher in open for their satellites to pick it up. Yeah India met her objectives that's why after Balakot it sends a sub into Pakistani waters just to be detected and threatened its existence with missile strike. Of course, Pakistan never wanted to increase the hostilities. It was Indian enterprise, Pakistan just responded. Pakistan, with its conventional deterrence, thwarted Indian design to establish a new normal in subcontinent. 

Releasing a POW a gesture which was received well from across the world. Question is, if India wanted to punish Pakistan for helping so-called terrorism, why Kashmir is still under curfew? Your own people.


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## Haris Ali2140

seven0seven said:


> If this is a glide general purpose bomb then how its penetrates to building of balakot, its should be explode on impact then


Ask Indians.


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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Thank you. That is precisely the point.
> The structure was meant to stand. Any one who has followed syrian conflict and israels employment of Spice bomb munitions would know the impact and damage it does. The structure is gutted from inside. All the kinetic action happens inside. Externally and from a TOP view perspective - you wouldnt come to know. I am sure if you were stand close to building you would see its effects. ISPR did a fab job in organizing a sham tour of supposed journos who didnt have a clue. The tour happened 40 days after.



what bharat mata ki horse sh1t is this?

Spice-2000 uses MK-84 which has 2,000 lbs and almost 1,000 lbs of HE which is more then enough to obliterate bunkers and and structures. The strike on Syrian structure you are talking about was a result of a cluster bomb because a "kinetic action" of 2,000 lbs or even 1,000lbs would create huge creator from impacting the ground. 
this Indiots theory is defying law of physics.

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## Haris Ali2140

Myth_buster_1 said:


> what bharat mata ki horse sh1t is this?
> 
> Spice-2000 uses MK-84 which has 2,000 lbs and almost 1,000 lbs of HE which is more then enough to obliterate bunkers and and structures. The strike on Syrian structure you are talking about was a result of a cluster bomb because a "kinetic action" of 2,000 lbs or even 1,000lbs would create huge creator from impacting the ground.
> this Indiots theory is defying law of physics.


Multiplt those lbs with factor of five.

This is what a bunker buster does. And Spice aint one.


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## Comfortably Numb

anathema said:


> From a Pakistani perspective - its fine. Like i said. PAF and Pak armed forces achieved its objective.
> 
> 
> 40 days to give a tour of neighborhood site - sure COWS were the only living organisms that were killed. Gafoor did his job well , with utmost sincerity. Pity he was passed off for promotion.
> 
> 
> Every bomb of yours fell short of target by 500 mtrs to more than a KM. It just means poor employment of stand off weapons. But PAF is a professional air force - this will be corrected immediately.
> 
> 
> With regards to ballistic missiles - how did you deny India that oppurtunity. I dont know of this. India did not climb escalation ladder because it met its objectives. Also the utter capitulation on PAK's part to return back Abhinandan - it hoped for cessation of hostilities. It got what it wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> If only we had rafales - is a perfectly acceptable statement. If you cannot process it then its your problem. Our generals have much more freehand to speak. We dont put generals in house arrest due to a difference of opinion
> 
> You are full of shit is a statement resorted by people who are incompetent and jingoistic. Absolutely devoid of facts.


O my god
You actually ARE full of shit


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## Myth_buster_1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Multiplt those lbs with factor of five.
> 
> This is what a bunker buster does. And Spice aint one.



nahi yaar. It can be used as a bunker buster.

watch this video


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## Haris Ali2140

Myth_buster_1 said:


> nahi yaar. It can be used as a bunker buster.
> 
> watch this video


On Internet I couldn't find a reference saying Rafale is a bunker buster.


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## Myth_buster_1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> On Internet I couldn't find a reference saying Rafale is a bunker buster.



depending on the strength of a bunker, anything dropped from the sky can be a bunker buster.


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## anathema

PakShaheen79 said:


> Pity, IAF or India failed to show the impact of Pakistani weapons even after a year so that world can form its own opinion about PAF's strike's accuracy or otherwise. It is GHAFOOR. OH, BTW, this is how the world has seen accuracy of IAF's strike.
> https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indias-strike-on-balakot-a-very-precise-miss/
> Accuracy of Spikes on ground...



Sure - this is how ISPR wanted the world to see it. The fact that most of the members on this forums parots Gafoors line of crows killed essentially proves the buffoonery of it all. You guys are eating out of the palms of ISPR department with no and i mean no critical questioning back. 



> And Govt. of Pakistan/FO/PAF ... all have explained the reason why it was so. PAF showed recorded footage of its stand-off weapon which was deliberately guided off-target. Where is SPIKE's footage? Where is footage of carters created by PAF's weapons which you r claiming 1/2 to 1 KM off target? Nothing! NADA..



Pakistan when it fights a battle , it considers information warfare central to fighting overall battle. I think its absolutely the correct strategy - with a ever changing world. This is an area where we lagged and are still lagging. India came out the very day - stating that Cristal Maze which was supposed to record the impact could not be released or malfunctioned. Here i would commend communication - there was no change in its statement from Day1. Coming back to the point - It never had the footage - because it never considers information warfare central to its war fighting capabilities. If it had, it would have build redundancy. At this point its all conjecture - but this is what i believe in. India has a shoddy to a non existent communication department. 



> By simply making US intervene by bringing our BM launcher in open for their satellites to pick it up. Yeah India met her objectives that's why after Balakot it sends a sub into Pakistani waters just to be detected and threatened its existence with missile strike. Of course, Pakistan never wanted to increase the hostilities. It was Indian enterprise, Pakistan just responded. Pakistan, with its conventional deterrence, thwarted Indian design to establish a new normal in subcontinent.


You are going to threaten a sub with a missile strike ? Really ? Anyways congratulations on detecting sub - its a good capability to have. Indians will be careful the next time. Also India never sought to impose a new normal. It just had 2 political objectives. It achieved both.



> Releasing a POW a gesture which was received well from across the world. Question is, if India wanted to punish Pakistan for helping so-called terrorism, why Kashmir is still under curfew? Your own people.



Releasing a POW is what i call a classical deescalation maneuver. In other words you dont have what it takes to stand up and fight. Pakistans knows it will have huge problem with its current state of economy if a fight breaks out. It was spooked ! Nothing explains 'No Fly' zone over PAK airspace for literally 6 months - whereas Indian airspace was open from Day 1. 
What about Kashmir ? India will break insurgency which has active PAK support. There is no two ways about it.



Myth_buster_1 said:


> what *bharat mata ki horse sh1t* is this?


You had to do this..didnt you ? Childish way to retort over the years have never changed. This aint the first time where i have seen its usage.



> Spice-2000 uses MK-84 which has 2,000 lbs and almost 1,000 lbs of HE


This is an incorrect statement. Spice 2000 is a guidance kit and its not a bomb. Only exception is Spice 250 and its mated to a bomb. In case of 2000 and 1000, It can be mated with various types of munitions including munitions that are developed in house. Most probably it would have been a low mass TNT instead of high mass MK84. There are plenty of evidences on its usage if you care to search.



> which is more then enough to obliterate bunkers and and structures. The strike on Syrian structure you are talking about was a result of a cluster bomb because a "kinetic action" of 2,000 lbs or even 1,000lbs would create huge creator from impacting the ground.


Let me again try to summarize -
SPICE 2000 is an all weather 1000 KG bomb kit. It has 12 control surfaces - with tail having sensors to sense the pressure and direction ; head having micrpphones which controls microfuses - the entire idea being to count the floors or measuing the impact on the floors before detonating. The fuses were critical - since it controls the penetration and when the detonation would happen. There are other things in SPICE as well - IN/GPS , image matcher, etc which right now is not relevant. SPICE has enough mass to penetrate the ground sufficiently deep and the pressure variation from the center of the fireball is enough to eliminate soft tissue targets in near by region. Sure it can cause a structure to fall (not explode in flames or be gutted) , but it depends at what level below the ground the detonation happened and the pressure it exerted. So needless to say - the structure can withstand. I mean thinking about it - happen to see 2005 historical images of Balakot training camp, it withstood the earthquake in that area which otherwise caused significant destruction in that area.



> this Indiots theory is defying law of physics.


Actually its all about physics. I am not an expert but have read enough to understand the situation. Syrian employment is relevation - go through the forums of other nations and you will understnad the nature.



Comfortably Numb said:


> O my god
> You actually ARE full of shit


Yo ! Floyd fan- do you have anything to contribute ? or its really numb ?



Haris Ali2140 said:


> On Internet I couldn't find a reference saying Rafale is a bunker buster.


SPICE is not employed as a Bunker buster. GBU 24 is a bunker buster coupled with 116. However SPICE can be employed as one if required.


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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Releasing a POW is what i call a classical deescalation maneuver. In other words you dont have what it takes to stand up and fight. Pakistans knows it will have huge problem with its current state of economy if a fight breaks out. It was spooked ! Nothing explains 'No Fly' zone over PAK airspace for literally 6 months - whereas Indian airspace was open from Day 1.
> What about Kashmir ? India will break insurgency which has active PAK support. There is no two ways about it.



more horse sh1t... Indian high profile Naval officer is still under Pakistan's custody for past several years despite of India trying to prove him innocent of any wrong doing. IAF is the one who backed off because they have yet to score a kill. right now the score is PAF 2 IAF -1 (-1 for shooting down its own fighter lol)




> You had to do this..didnt you ? Childish way to retort over the years have never changed. This aint the first time where i have seen its usage.


Have you seen Indians behavior on Twitter? 



> This is an incorrect statement. Spice 2000 is a guidance kit and its not a bomb. Only exception is Spice 250 and its mated to a bomb. In case of 2000 and 1000, It can be mated with various types of munitions including munitions that are developed in house. Most probably it would have been a low mass TNT instead of high mass MK84. There are plenty of evidences on its usage if you care to search.



indiot where did i say Spice is not a kit? IAF specifically acquired MK-84 from Israel because IAF does not have ANY OTHER unguided 2,000lbs that fits on Spice-2000. Their is no such thing as "LOW TNT" on a 2,000lbs as it is designed with thick-walled metal casing with explosive filler that can not be reduced or increased. 
Even if lower TNT was used all that energy would escape from penetration mark causing the structure on top to collapse. Also its just Indiot imagination that their is a bunker underneath. 


> Let me again try to summarize -
> SPICE 2000 is an all weather 1000 KG bomb kit. It has 12 control surfaces - with tail having sensors to sense the pressure and direction ; head having micrpphones which controls microfuses - the entire idea being to count the floors or measuing the impact on the floors before detonating. The fuses were critical - since it controls the penetration and when the detonation would happen. There are other things in SPICE as well - IN/GPS , image matcher, etc which right now is not relevant.


yah, blah blah blah 


> SPICE has enough mass to penetrate the ground sufficiently deep and the pressure variation from the center of the fireball is enough to eliminate soft tissue targets in near by region


indian imagination defying law of physics. 


> PICE has enough mass to penetrate the ground sufficiently deep and the pressure variation from the center of the fireball is enough to eliminate soft tissue targets in near by region. Sure it can cause a structure to fall (not explode in flames or be gutted) , but it depends at what level below the ground the detonation happened and the pressure it exerted.


yet again just imagination no logic.


> S So needless to say - the structure can withstand. I mean thinking about it - happen to see 2005 historical images of Balakot training camp, it withstood the earthquake in that area which otherwise caused significant destruction in that area.



Not every structure in 2005 collapsed so ur logic is just as stupid as u.



> Actually its all about physics. I am not an expert but have read enough to understand the situation. Syrian employment is relevation - go through the forums of other nations and you will understnad the nature.


yes i have, no forum supports indian theories on balakot strike.


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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> more horse sh1t... Indian high profile Naval officer is still under Pakistan's custody for past several years despite of India trying to prove him innocent of any wrong doing. IAF is the one who backed off because they have yet to score a kill. right now the score is PAF 2 IAF -1 (-1 for shooting down its own fighter lol)


You can say whatever crap you want. Doesnt make it true. Naval officer on espionage charge has got nothing to do with war. It was actually very cowardly for you guys to release Abhi. Utter lack of courage. You can sugar coat and claim it as a world peace gesture but reeks of cowardice. By the way did you find the Doosrabanda in your hospital ? 2 planes went down allright - only 1 of them was IAF. Your Su 30 MKI claim are exactly the lies that Pakistanis are known for. Remember 60 second MM Alam, hilarious.



> Have you seen Indians behavior on Twitter?


So ? 



> indiot where did i say Spice is not a kit? IAF specifically acquired MK-84 from Israel because IAF does not have ANY OTHER unguided 2,000lbs that fits on Spice-2000. Their is no such thing as "LOW TNT" on a 2,000lbs as it is designed with thick-walled metal casing with explosive filler that can not be reduced or increased.


No you einstien- you said Spice 2000 is only mated with Mk-84 - its balatantly false. It can be mated with lot of munitions including MK 84.



> Even if lower TNT was used all that energy would escape from penetration mark causing the structure on top to collapse. Also its just Indiot imagination that their is a bunker underneath.
> yah, blah blah blah


All that energy would escape penetration mark.... ? What ???? No it wont. It depends on mgh/d; d stands for depth of penetration. Essentially it means how much did spice bomb penetrate into the ground - that would determine if structure would fall or not. There are countless videos which illustrate structure standing and inside being gutted. 



> indian imagination defying law of physics.


rudimentary education -- oh i forget you dont have great colleges from where you come from - right..



> yet again just imagination no logic.


No logic - here stands i dont understand a crap of what he is saying but then i might have overestimated your capacity to absorb.



> Not every structure in 2005 collapsed so ur logic is just as stupid as u.


No but it does provide a reference. WHat do you think is the TNT equivalent of the earthquake that happened ?



> yes i have, no forum supports indian theories on balakot strike.


I was referring to working of SPICE bomb - for starters , read . Do you read ? Or you refer only to ISPR statements ?


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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> You can say whatever crap you want. Doesnt make it true. Naval officer on espionage charge has got nothing to do with war. It was actually very cowardly for you guys to release Abhi.Utter lack of courage. You can sugar coat and claim it as a world peace gesture but reeks of cowardice.


Or Pakistani army on ground could have let abhi get mauled to death by villagers. Indians are just thankless people. The fact is India insist that naval officer is not a spy and is innocent, so Pakistan is actually capturing innocent man which is against geneva convention  so do something about it. and btw 27th feb was not a war u indiot.


> By the way did you find the Doosrabanda in your hospital ? 2 planes went down allright - only 1 of them was IAF. Your Su 30 MKI claim are exactly the lies that Pakistanis are known for. Remember 60 second MM Alam, hilarious.



the doosrabanda is now your jeejuu.  just kidding. 

btw this is getting quite boring answering to same question over and over again with same result in indians running away from evidence like you are about to...

Here are pictures of all 4 missiles recovered from abhi's mig-21. notice 1 r-77 was stuck on pylon and the other one that was dislodged was recovered which has a serial number that can be traced back to IAF inventory.






















Villagers could have mistaken mig-21 drag chute with dosrabanda or they saw abhi's parachute which was in vicinity of abhi's arrest location and they thought its another pilot and had their been another pilot then pakistani troops would have ran towards him but this never happened. also if their was an f-16 within their reach then their would have been F-16 wreckage video. and dont give me more bs that all videos and images were deleted.




> No you einstien- you said Spice 2000 is only mated with Mk-84 - its balatantly false. It can be mated with lot of munitions including MK 84.



Where did i say it "only uses" mk84? u r just being stupid. 
I said it uses mk-84 which india bought from isreal along with spice kits and all mk84 have 1,000 lbs of HE.



> All that energy would escape penetration mark.... ? What ???? No it wont. It depends on mgh/d; d stands for depth of penetration. Essentially it means how much did spice bomb penetrate into the ground - that would determine if structure would fall or not. There are countless videos which illustrate structure standing and inside being gutted.


you are giving balakot structure importance of a underground nuclear reactor which has 10 feet thick walls. 
their is not even any evidence of a underground bunker but here we are dealing with indian imaginations. 
Show me one video or picture proving your imagination theory of structure standing and inside being gutted? 



> rudimentary education -- oh i forget you dont have great colleges from where you come from - right..


Yah i did not even go to school but i have more knowledge then you 



> No logic - here stands i dont understand a crap of what he is saying but then i might have overestimated your capacity to absorb.


Outside India when you say something make sure you can back it up with evidence cuz i know it does not exist on your part of imaginary world.



> No but it does provide a reference. WHat do you think is the TNT equivalent of the earthquake that happened ?
> 
> 
> I was referring to working of SPICE bomb - for starters , read . Do you read ? Or you refer only to ISPR statements ?

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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Or Pakistani army on ground could have let abhi get mauled to death by villagers. Indians are just thankless people. The fact is India insist that naval officer is not a spy and is innocent, so Pakistan is actually capturing innocent man which is against geneva convention  so do something about it. and btw 27th feb was not a war u indiot.


Oh dont worry - we will get Khulbushan. Unlike PAK, we dont abandon our people. for starters you can ask students in Wuhan. Anyways in spyfare - these things happen. You do remember the case of missing PAK colonel from Nepal, dont you ? Call 27th feb - a low intesity conflict. Who cares.



> the doosrabanda is now your jeejuu.  just kidding.
> 
> btw this is getting quite boring answering to same question over and over again with same result in indians running away from evidence like you are about to...
> 
> Here are pictures of all 4 missiles recovered from abhi's mig-21. notice 1 r-77 was stuck on pylon and the other one that was dislodged was recovered which has a serial number that can be traced back to IAF inventory.


Groan - not these pics again. Countless articles have been written on how this is a sham job. All the best if this is core of your argument ! 



> Villagers could have mistaken mig-21 drag chute with dosrabanda or they saw abhi's parachute which was in vicinity of abhi's arrest location and they thought its another pilot and had their been another pilot then pakistani troops would have ran towards him but this never happened. also if their was an f-16 within their reach then their would have been F-16 wreckage video. and dont give me more bs that all videos and images were deleted.


There are so many holes in the story -- so many holes that water just floods out of them. Do you ever ask critical questions to your government or in your case to your Army ? Any sane country with a functioning government and a independent press would have ripped apart your above statement. Its a waste of time to go over the same stuff. Doosra banda humarein pass hain , Doosre bandain hospital main hain aur uske sath hum acha saluk karenge, khan announcing in pariliament, ...i mean what a mockery. Thats not all - the entire chain of events and communication contradicts one another. With regards to F16 - you tell me. Another plane went down. IAF official presser provided radar images of F16 disappearance. Dont know how it disappeared - whoever did that , amazing stuff. 



> Where did i say it "only uses" mk84? u r just being stupid.
> I said it uses mk-84 which india bought from isreal along with spice kits and all mk84 have 1,000 lbs of HE.


You have the gumption to say what IAF brought? Really its that open source ? Most of us - were not even aware of SPICE till Balakot happened. So to say IAF has mated with MK84 - is a bit rich. Here's a fact - SPICE can be mated with lot of munitions and we dont know which one was mated on 26th. 



> you are giving balakot structure importance of a underground nuclear reactor which has 10 feet thick walls.
> their is not even any evidence of a underground bunker but here we are dealing with indian imaginations.
> Show me one video or picture proving your imagination theory of structure standing and inside being gutted?


I doesnt need to be a reinforced structure. I have seen sheds standing after SPICE impacts. You can refer to a video that was posted by one user above. Anyways are you asking me to do your work for you ? Go search - start with Israelis - they do have some good stories to tell. It might bust your myth actually.



> Yah i did not even go to school but i have more knowledge then you


Yup it shows



> Outside India when you say something make sure you can back it up with evidence cuz i know it does not exist on your part of imaginary world.


The only thing we lack is ISPR department - hopefully it will be fullfilled. All the other shortcomings of 27th are being addressed on war footing.
[/QUOTE]

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## Khan vilatey

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Or Pakistani army on ground could have let abhi get mauled to death by villagers. Indians are just thankless people. The fact is India insist that naval officer is not a spy and is innocent, so Pakistan is actually capturing innocent man which is against geneva convention  so do something about it. and btw 27th feb was not a war u indiot.
> 
> 
> the doosrabanda is now your jeejuu.  just kidding.
> 
> btw this is getting quite boring answering to same question over and over again with same result in indians running away from evidence like you are about to...
> 
> Here are pictures of all 4 missiles recovered from abhi's mig-21. notice 1 r-77 was stuck on pylon and the other one that was dislodged was recovered which has a serial number that can be traced back to IAF inventory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Villagers could have mistaken mig-21 drag chute with dosrabanda or they saw abhi's parachute which was in vicinity of abhi's arrest location and they thought its another pilot and had their been another pilot then pakistani troops would have ran towards him but this never happened. also if their was an f-16 within their reach then their would have been F-16 wreckage video. and dont give me more bs that all videos and images were deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did i say it "only uses" mk84? u r just being stupid.
> I said it uses mk-84 which india bought from isreal along with spice kits and all mk84 have 1,000 lbs of HE.
> 
> 
> you are giving balakot structure importance of a underground nuclear reactor which has 10 feet thick walls.
> their is not even any evidence of a underground bunker but here we are dealing with indian imaginations.
> Show me one video or picture proving your imagination theory of structure standing and inside being gutted?
> 
> 
> Yah i did not even go to school but i have more knowledge then you
> 
> 
> Outside India when you say something make sure you can back it up with evidence cuz i know it does not exist on your part of imaginary world.



didn’t Abhinandhan admit that he was searching for targets when shot down........... are Indian Air Force officers liars with no sense of honor.....do their words mean nothing???

it is strange how low an opinion Indians have of their soldiers. I believe them to be honorable men who would not lie in the way of their duty.


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## anathema

Khan vilatey said:


> didn’t Abhinandhan admit that he was searching for targets when shot down........... are Indian Air Force officers liars with no sense of honor.....do their words mean nothing???
> 
> it is strange how low an opinion Indians have of their soldiers. I believe them to be honorable men who would not lie in the way of their duty.



Nice video and nice editing. He did not lie - its just his sentence got cut - exactly how you would in movies. I mean think about it - which armed forces in the world is so eager to release videos of captured soldiers with such careful editing. North korea does it. Thats your parallel.

This thread has derailed by a long shot by me ! Apologies to forum members. I replied to a poster above of not derailing, will intend to keep it that way. I will take up on other threads.


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## Khan vilatey

I have this nagging question all the time. The probability of two seater f-16 being used in the air defence role is limited as its better suited to an attack role. In the video of the second kill we all see two engine aircraft and two shoots. Why is it so hard to believe it’s an su-30mki. Did the Russians confirm that all of Indian su-30 were accounted for like the Americans told a us journalist ?


I leave you with a abhjit Iyer Mitra a very right wing Indian analyst on his views about su-30

fun starts at 3:30










I agree with his views on su-30

kv



anathema said:


> Nice video and nice editing. He did not lie - its just his sentence got cut - exactly how you would in movies. I mean think about it - which armed forces in the world is so eager to release videos of captured soldiers with such careful editing. North korea does it. Thats your parallel.
> 
> This thread has derailed by a long shot by me ! Apologies to forum members. I replied to a poster above of not derailing, will intend to keep it that way. I will take up on other threads.




Sorry what is your evidence for this video being cut. That really means that you think your Indian officer is a liar?

I believe that this guy did not lie, at least I never heard him say he shot anything down but I truly believe Indian politicians lied. This incursion in February 26th was a fool hardy election stunt.
Kv?


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228668174171693056

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## Khan vilatey

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228668174171693056



lol the 100% Indian plane that will God willing never be inducted 

kv

kv


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## anathema

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228668174171693056



Nice ! But no MAWS on Mk1A. It will be on MK2.


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## Water Car Engineer

Khan vilatey said:


> lol the 100% Indian plane that will God willing never be inducted
> 
> kv
> 
> kv



It will.


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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Oh dont worry - we will get Khulbushan. Unlike PAK, we dont abandon our people. for starters you can ask students in Wuhan. Anyways in spyfare - these things happen. You do remember the case of missing PAK colonel from Nepal, dont you ? Call 27th feb - a low intesity conflict. Who cares.


Pakistanis are more safe in China then Indians are safe in India. Remind me again how many women and children get raped in India? 
let me enlighten you.
even though this research is 13 years old its still valid since rape epadamic is all time high in india.

Over 53% children face sexual abuse: Survey

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

as for Indian spy, last time India tried to get him back they were b1tch slapped by Pakistan in court. things wont get any better for him.



> Groan - not these pics again. Countless articles have been written on how this is a sham job. All the best if this is core of your argument !



Yah just run away from evidence and take cover in some imaginary stories so you wont feel bad. And your source must be that indiot sameer joshi who smokes cow dung before writing his blog. and the story you are referring to is the one where they claim all these missiles were bought from ebay? retards
watt a compelling evidence by indiots. 



> There are so many holes in the story -- so many holes that water just floods out of them. Do you ever ask critical questions to your government or in your case to your Army ? Any sane country with a functioning government and a independent press would have ripped apart your above statement. Its a waste of time to go over the same stuff. Doosra banda humarein pass hain , Doosre bandain hospital main hain aur uske sath hum acha saluk karenge, khan announcing in pariliament, ...i mean what a mockery. Thats not all - the entire chain of events and communication contradicts one another.



LOL my stories has certainly busted your dam. 
btw 1/4 of your country has media black out where kashmiris can not communicate atrocities of indian occupied forces with out side world. worst form of freedom of expression can be found in India ONLY.
See, the difference between your Kashmir and ours is the locals were shouting slogans in favor of Pakistan military while freedom fighter kashmiris were pelting stones on IAF chopper that was trying to land at Mi-17 crash site.... Its India that suppresses freedom of expression by gun... Pakistan army does not suppress pakistani kashmir voice its India that does to its people. and thats why we dont see any footage from Indian occupied kashmir of paf 27th feb strike on Indian sovereignty that was violated by 1960s Mirages and block 1 JF-17s.. 
Where as almost every villager in mig-21 crash site that had a cellphone with camera recorded the whole incident without fear of getting killed by its own army. 



> With regards to F16 - you tell me. Another plane went down. IAF official presser provided radar images of F16 disappearance. Dont know how it disappeared - whoever did that , amazing stuff.



Even anti-pakistani lady does not agree with this cartoonish radar image which was a propaganda tool used by IAF to brainwash its citizens like you who fall for any imaginary stories. 
Even I could do a photoshop of a radar image and say look i found UFOs!! thats exactly what IAF did. lol 
yah dont know how it disappeared, just fking photoshop up because in reality IAF can only dream about shooting down F-16 while PAF shot down mig-21 and SU-30 lol










> You have the gumption to say what IAF brought? Really its that open source ? Most of us - were not even aware of SPICE till Balakot happened. So to say IAF has mated with MK84 - is a bit rich. Here's a fact - SPICE can be mated with lot of munitions and we dont know which one was mated on 26th.



a unguided air to ground armament is top secret purchase in India now? lol... Spice-2000 ONLY uses MK-84 in IAF do you understand that part? IAF does not have any other munition to "mate" it with spice. 




> I doesnt need to be a reinforced structure. I have seen sheds standing after SPICE impacts. You can refer to a video that was posted by one user above. Anyways are you asking me to do your work for you ? Go search - start with Israelis - they do have some good stories to tell. It might bust your myth actually.


yah that was in your dreams that you saw. 
show me a video of 2,000 lbs just "gutting" inside a building without leaving a single mark. on the roof. 



> The only thing we lack is ISPR department - hopefully it will be fullfilled. All the other shortcomings of 27th are being addressed on war footing.


India can only do propaganda because ISPR stands for transparency where media personals like anti-army hamid mir is allowed to ask tough questions after a press conference. 

And your ex air chief B(ull) S(hit) Dhona recently said they lost footage of spice-2000 thats why they can not provide evidence of the strike. again what kind of BS is this?? lol... every spice is independent from each other so what are the odds of each of them losing footage? 
see i told you, you guys are only good at making up stories like this one.

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## Comfortably Numb

anathema said:


> Sure - this is how ISPR wanted the world to see it. The fact that most of the members on this forums parots Gafoors line of crows killed essentially proves the buffoonery of it all. You guys are eating out of the palms of ISPR department with no and i mean no critical questioning back.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan when it fights a battle , it considers information warfare central to fighting overall battle. I think its absolutely the correct strategy - with a ever changing world. This is an area where we lagged and are still lagging. India came out the very day - stating that Cristal Maze which was supposed to record the impact could not be released or malfunctioned. Here i would commend communication - there was no change in its statement from Day1. Coming back to the point - It never had the footage - because it never considers information warfare central to its war fighting capabilities. If it had, it would have build redundancy. At this point its all conjecture - but this is what i believe in. India has a shoddy to a non existent communication department.
> 
> 
> You are going to threaten a sub with a missile strike ? Really ? Anyways congratulations on detecting sub - its a good capability to have. Indians will be careful the next time. Also India never sought to impose a new normal. It just had 2 political objectives. It achieved both.
> 
> 
> 
> Releasing a POW is what i call a classical deescalation maneuver. In other words you dont have what it takes to stand up and fight. Pakistans knows it will have huge problem with its current state of economy if a fight breaks out. It was spooked ! Nothing explains 'No Fly' zone over PAK airspace for literally 6 months - whereas Indian airspace was open from Day 1.
> What about Kashmir ? India will break insurgency which has active PAK support. There is no two ways about it.
> 
> 
> You had to do this..didnt you ? Childish way to retort over the years have never changed. This aint the first time where i have seen its usage.
> 
> 
> This is an incorrect statement. Spice 2000 is a guidance kit and its not a bomb. Only exception is Spice 250 and its mated to a bomb. In case of 2000 and 1000, It can be mated with various types of munitions including munitions that are developed in house. Most probably it would have been a low mass TNT instead of high mass MK84. There are plenty of evidences on its usage if you care to search.
> 
> 
> Let me again try to summarize -
> SPICE 2000 is an all weather 1000 KG bomb kit. It has 12 control surfaces - with tail having sensors to sense the pressure and direction ; head having micrpphones which controls microfuses - the entire idea being to count the floors or measuing the impact on the floors before detonating. The fuses were critical - since it controls the penetration and when the detonation would happen. There are other things in SPICE as well - IN/GPS , image matcher, etc which right now is not relevant. SPICE has enough mass to penetrate the ground sufficiently deep and the pressure variation from the center of the fireball is enough to eliminate soft tissue targets in near by region. Sure it can cause a structure to fall (not explode in flames or be gutted) , but it depends at what level below the ground the detonation happened and the pressure it exerted. So needless to say - the structure can withstand. I mean thinking about it - happen to see 2005 historical images of Balakot training camp, it withstood the earthquake in that area which otherwise caused significant destruction in that area.
> 
> 
> Actually its all about physics. I am not an expert but have read enough to understand the situation. Syrian employment is relevation - go through the forums of other nations and you will understnad the nature.
> 
> 
> Yo ! Floyd fan- do you have anything to contribute ? or its really numb ?
> 
> 
> SPICE is not employed as a Bunker buster. GBU 24 is a bunker buster coupled with 116. However SPICE can be employed as one if required.


your fragile dreams will be broken................

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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Pakistanis are more safe in China then Indians are safe in India. Remind me again how many women and children get raped in India?
> let me enlighten you.
> even though this research is 13 years old its still valid since rape epadamic is all time high in india.
> 
> Over 53% children face sexual abuse: Survey
> 
> Read more at:
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
> 
> as for Indian spy, last time India tried to get him back they were b1tch slapped by Pakistan in court. things wont get any better for him.


Pakistanis are more safe in china is something that PDF posters can only think. What a utter disgrace ! A country that cant even bring its own citizens back. Heres a brand new report from CNBC pn stranded pak students








> Yah just run away from evidence and take cover in some imaginary stories so you wont feel bad. And your source must be that indiot sameer joshi who smokes cow dung before writing his blog. and the story you are referring to is the one where they claim all these missiles were bought from ebay? retards
> watt a compelling evidence by indiots.


Imaginary stories are what you concoting..ISPR is known that for that. Doosra banda humarein pass hain..oops the pilot that was in hospital was our own and he died. Sameer Joshi is an ex Mirage fighter pilot - the kind of planes that you still swear by. Independent analysts have rebuffed the stories that you quote - you can check for it online. Heck F16 forum had a very famous defence analyst and very close to PAK establishment confirming the loss of F16. But hey dont let that trouble you - its all propoganda. By the way - has PAF come out in open rebutting the radar images by placing their own picture OR it shoots from lackeys like you ?



> LOL my stories has certainly busted your dam.


You are giving way too much credit to yourself. You have parroted the same lines with no worthy articles or new thought process.



> btw 1/4 of your country has media black out where kashmiris can not communicate atrocities of indian occupied forces with out side world. worst form of freedom of expression can be found in India ONLY.
> See, the difference between your Kashmir and ours is the locals were shouting slogans in favor of Pakistan military while freedom fighter kashmiris were pelting stones on IAF chopper that was trying to land at Mi-17 crash site.... Its India that suppresses freedom of expression by gun... Pakistan army does not suppress pakistani kashmir voice its India that does to its people. and thats why we dont see any footage from Indian occupied kashmir of paf 27th feb strike on Indian sovereignty that was violated by 1960s Mirages and block 1 JF-17s..
> Where as almost every villager in mig-21 crash site that had a cellphone with camera recorded the whole incident without fear of getting killed by its own army.


Kashmir will be ours. You can say whatever you want. For 80 yrs you all are trying - try more. You lost half of your country in that process - who knows whats next.



> Even anti-pakistani lady does not agree with this cartoonish radar image which was a propaganda tool used by IAF to brainwash its citizens like you who fall for any imaginary stories.
> Even I could do a photoshop of a radar image and say look i found UFOs!! thats exactly what IAF did. lol
> yah dont know how it disappeared, just fking photoshop up because in reality IAF can only dream about shooting down F-16 while PAF shot down mig-21 and SU-30 lol



Execuse me. Who exactly is she ? Is she a defence authority or defence spokesperson ? Why should i listen to a GORA ? You may have a colonial hangover and may be colonial slave - i am not. Shes a nobody to me. 'If its official PAF spokesperson then i am all ears. Heck even Mr Tufail redacted his written story couple of times after he was caught out.
Anyways start by photoshopping a radar image - and then let PAF personnel do a presser with it. Then lets see what happens. Here's something for you - PAF will never come out with Su 30 MKI radar intercepts - because there lies will be called out by IAF. IAF on the other hand has made radar intercepts public - it has nothing to hide.
By the way - Su 30 MKI that you claim to shot down - flew on republic day. It is for PAF to prove - that its not the same Su30 MKI.
So wake me up when you some tangible proof on Su 30 MKI. By the way - your thoughts on Pilot who supposedly shot down MKI getting a lesser award that the one who shot Mig21 ? Praise the lord - but i thought you guys valued MKI. Its lies thats why. If your objective is to placate domestic audience - then these are things that you will do.




> a unguided air to ground armament is top secret purchase in India now? lol... Spice-2000 ONLY uses MK-84 in IAF do you understand that part? *IAF does not have any other munition to "mate" it with spice. *


Utter BS. First your lies that Spice 2K can only be mated with M84 was called out ..then you are resorting to 'But IAF only has Mk84' ..its just plain stupid and retarded. Ofcourse if you can prove it otherwise. IAF has its disposal different munitions just like IsAF has.



> yah that was in your dreams that you saw.
> show me a video of 2,000 lbs just "gutting" inside a building without leaving a single mark. on the roof.


Dont wnat to do your work. It was not 2000lbs, it was much lower TNT. Further it depends on ground penetration. For starters look at the video posted in this thread of bunker busting bomb.



> India can only do propaganda because ISPR stands for transparency where media personals like anti-army hamid mir is allowed to ask tough questions after a press conference.


Hmaid mir...hahaha ..really ? Sure he used to ask tough questions. But then he got a bullet or two , after that he has suddenly become uber patriotic. Please take this BS somewhere else. ISPR stands for transparency..ROFL.



> And your ex air chief B(ull) S(hit) Dhona recently said they *lost footage of spice-2000 thats why they can not provide evidence of the strike.* again what kind of BS is this?? lol... every spice is independent from each other so what are the odds of each of them losing footage?
> see i told you, you guys are only good at making up stories like this one.


Its not a story. Its reality. IAF said the very day - Cristal Maze malfunctioned or it could not be released. As a result, we dont have recording. Like i said - information warefare is not central to the plans otherwise redudancy would have been built in.
By the way - why did you guys close your airspace for 6 months and more ? What spooked the much vaunted PAK fazaya ? lol


----------



## Khan vilatey

anathema said:


> Nice ! But no MAWS on Mk1A. It will be on MK2.



so is abhijit Iyer Mitra a right wing Indian analyst a liar.

Fun starts at 3:30




if the su-30 is this bad and the pilot training is inferior, then it’s safe to assume that Indian pilots and equipment is not effective. 

kv


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## anathema

Khan vilatey said:


> so is abhijit Iyer Mitra a right wing Indian analyst a liar.
> 
> Fun starts at 3:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if the su-30 is this bad and the pilot training is inferior, then it’s safe to assume that Indian pilots and equipment is not effective.
> 
> kv



KV - read more, before posting. Mitra is not a defence personnel neither he is a defence correspondent. Mitra's points are very outdated - all the things that he mentioned were rectified long time back - years before Feb 27.


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## Khan vilatey

anathema said:


> KV - read more, before posting. Mitra is not a defence personnel neither he is a defence correspondent. Mitra's points are very outdated - all the things that he mentioned were rectified long time back - years before Feb 27.




Really now abhijit is not a defence analyst, why does Indian media, Bjp and others keep inviting him. Dude you are soooooooo of reality that it hurts.

so what is your qualifications to make this assessments

and I don’t believe I am defending abhijit Iyer Mitra. May God forgive me


About the Speaker: - Abhijit Iyer-Mitra is Senior Fellow at the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies. A Defence Economist, he has regular columns in the Economic Times & Business Standard as well as bylines in all major dailies and the New York Times. He also has co authored two books, one on military reforms and another on Afghanistan and has several academic publications to his credit dealing with defence and foreign policy. Prior to his current post he coordinated the National Security Programme at the Observer Research Foundation, was visiting scholar at Sandia National Laboratories (Albuquerque) & at the Stimson Center (Washington D C). His hobbies include flying recreational aircraft and scuba diving and he is the proud parent of two dogs and a cat.


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## Water Car Engineer

MWF


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## Khan vilatey

MWF ?

kv


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## Water Car Engineer

Khan vilatey said:


> MWF ?
> 
> kv



Follow on program from LCA mark 1 program.

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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Pakistanis are more safe in china is something that PDF posters can only think. What a utter disgrace ! A country that cant even bring its own citizens back. Heres a brand new report from CNBC pn stranded pak students



Why should pakistan join propaganda club against China?
Let me repeat again, China is more safer for Pakistanis then India is safer for Indians. Should I remind you again how many millions of people die in India each year from rape HIV AIDS malaria etc? So should everybody start fleeing India?



> Imaginary stories are what you concoting..ISPR is known that for that. Doosra banda humarein pass hain..oops the pilot that was in hospital was our own and he died.


Like i said, the doosra banda is now your jeejuu g. btw ISPR clarified communication mistake which is expected during fog of war. One unit on ground reported one pilot captured (abhi) and other unit who treated abhi in hospital also reported him so this was translated as 2 pilots.
Also all PAF pilots have patches such as flag and name and also have a tongue and can speak in urdu so had the pilot been captured by villagers they would have known he is one of ours.
Go watch abhi's captured videos where villagers asked him questions to confirm his indian identity before getting a beating. It only happens in Indian imaginary world where they think a PAF pilot was beaten by villagers despite all evidence of him being Pakistani. Also if Pakistan was trying to cover up PAF losses then they would not simply disclose him to media and thats a simple logic which indiots fail to comprehend.
and since India can not provide substantial international standard non propaganda evidence so they are resorting to finding mistakes in ISPR statements.


> Sameer Joshi is an ex Mirage fighter pilot - the kind of planes that you still swear by. Independent analysts have rebuffed the stories that you quote - you can check for it online.


You mean that guy who fools his fanboys with his imaginations? Yah, sure he was a fighter pilot... do you have a picture of him in a cockpit? because i only see this monkey in a bush plane pretending to be a top gun pilot.
Before I was banned from twitter (because Indians can not stand to truth) i owned this guy every time he uttered a word about this imaginary F-16 kill. First he tried persuading his fanboys that the Mig-21 wreckage images and videos are that of F-16 like the below image of Mig-21 was claimed as F-16 engine cowling 
or are you one of those slow learners who still believes this is f-16 engine. 







> Heck F16 forum had a very famous defence analyst and very close to PAK establishment confirming the loss of F16. But hey dont let that trouble you - its all propoganda. By the way - has PAF come out in open rebutting the radar images by placing their own picture OR it shoots from lackeys like you ?


LOL did you seriously had to bring this? more humiliation for IAF fanboys  
I infact took part of this discussion on that forum. initially few non indian members believed F-16 was downed but within few weeks of the incidents they all realized that just like scam calls this is indeed another scam by Indian propaganda factory. 
Go to this thread and enjoy humiliation IAF fanboy cry babies are receiving from non pakistani members.
Do note that only Indians believe in their F-16 imaginary kill theory which keeps getting busted.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56064&sid=ecb7d90fd99ad665b7bc9fff3a0e8cac

Here is what one of the member from Estonia has to say....

Alright then, I didn't bother with this crap when the event happened, but now since some still try to concoct some sort of "evidence", let's examine some real evidence, shall we?


This is dedicated to everyone believing in "SECOND PARACHUTE" story irreversibly proving a second aircraft was downed:

Soviet planes had several iterations of ejection seats, including but not limited to K-22, KS, KM-1, KT-1, K-36 etc.

Here's how a K-22, a seat used in MiG-19 worked:






One couldn't help but noticing that a separate stabilizing/main chute deployment parachute exists.

The venerable MiG-21 used several different seats, with early models having KS, which in the later models, including MiG-21bis, were upgraded to KM-1 ejection seat. And it's my pleasure to inform the entire congregation of "Second Chute Church" that after the ejection the seat also deploys it's own parachute and lands in the immediate vicinity of the pilot. "Why would they do that?", one may wonder? Well you see, the seat carried the survival kit for the pilot (НАЗ-7), so it had to land near the pilot for him to be able to use that, as neatly illustrated by this caricature from the polish magazine. Whoever doubts me may type all that text manually into translator. I didn't do that, because I believe it will be pretty identical to the russian sources I found online.






They say that the picture is worth that a thousand words, so let me post some for your entertainment:

Exhibit 1: LNA Fishbed shot down in Libya this summer, pilot ejected, survived, captured. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:






Exhibit 2: Libyan Air Force Flogger (MiG-23 also used KM-1) shot down over Benghazi in spring 2011, pilot ejected, survived. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:






Now to the videos, I found one quite interesting and informative. It's mainly about Soviet K-36 (an impressive specimen to say the least!), but I believe there's footage of Fishbed also (maybe KM-1, maybe modified to accept K-36) at 0:55 mark:

Exhibit 3a: @00:55-01:03 a single person ejects from a plane that looks a lot like Fishbed then transforms into two separate chutes, because the seat has it's own
Exhibit 3b: @01:47-01:54 we see footage of Fullback ejection. It apparently uses older generation of K-36 seat, because two ejected dummies are separatee from their seats... which soon after deploy their own chutes, doubling the number of chutes. Note that the seat chutes are slightly different from persons' chutes. I hope none of you are going to claim a four-seater Fullback exists.
Exhibit 3c: @01:55-02:00 we are treated to a footage of ejection from the tail of a "flying lab". I believe this is also an early gen K-36. As one can notice (watch at 0,25 speed) the seat deploys it's own chute and can be seen dangling near by the pilot in the upper right corner after disappearing from the frame for a second.



"Well why don't you see seat having their own chutes in some well documented crashes at airshows?" Well, I got two versions for that. Either it's disabled/removed because the pilots don't need survival kit at the airshow, OR they were equipped with later gen K-36 (called K-36M, K-36D and K-36D-3,5) which got rid of the seat chute in lieu of strapping survival kit (upgraded to НАЗ-8) directly to the pilot:






Actually, one can see footage @01:16-01:19 of ejected pilot with a raft dangling beneath him after two Fulcrums collided at 1993 RIAT. Or one can look up footage of Fencer shot down by Turks. It also features two pilots parachuting down with rafts dangling beneath them. Su-24 was the first aircraft to feature K-36 seat and thus is eligible to be upgraded to newer K-36 models.

So there you have it: the second chute apparently seen by the locals (but so far absent from any footage) is not a conclusive proof of the second downed aircraft, since MiG-21 would have produced two chutes by itself.




> You are giving way too much credit to yourself.


Yes i have PHD in busting Indian myths 


> You have parroted the same lines with no worthy articles or new thought process.


You do good job portraying yourself.


> Kashmir will be ours. You can say whatever you want. For 80 yrs you all are trying - try more. You lost half of your country in that process - who knows whats next.


In 1947 India was sliced and diced 
And then in 1948 we took almost half of kashmir from 2-3 times bigger military.
The only military achievement India could ever accomplish was from already geographically divided Pakistan which was 1,000 miles apart and in a civil war.



> Execuse me. Who exactly is she ?


She is IAF top brass mistresses who was invited to whip her slaves 


> Is she a defence authority or defence spokesperson ? Why should i listen to a GORA ? You may have a colonial hangover and may be colonial slave - i am not. Shes a nobody to me.


I dont know, ask her slaves in indian military who invited her.


> 'If its official PAF spokesperson then i am all ears. Heck even Mr Tufail redacted his written story couple of times after he was caught out.


 you are more then welcome to pretend what ever you want.


> Anyways start by photoshopping a radar image - and then let PAF personnel do a presser with it.


PAF does not believe in photoshop propaganda like IAF does. They only present "substantial evidence" as proof like this picture that haunts iaf fanboys.






> Then lets see what happens. Here's something for you - PAF will never come out with Su 30 MKI radar intercepts - because there lies will be called out by IAF.


Same thing was said about Mig-21 missiles... indians were like... where are the missiles??? and then they were smacked with more evidence.


> IAF on the other hand has made radar intercepts public - it has nothing to hide.


 you mean radar intercepts made on MS paint?


> By the way - Su 30 MKI that you claim to shot down - flew on republic day. It is for PAF to prove - that its not the same Su30 MKI.


And being like a good slave boy you bleived it without asking a question, "could it be random Su-30s that may have flown for face saving"?


> So wake me up when you some tangible proof on Su 30 MKI.


stay tuned because on 27th febuary of this year PAF will present more "NEW" evidences.


> By the way - your thoughts on Pilot who supposedly shot down MKI getting a lesser award that the one who shot Mig21 ? Praise the lord - but i thought you guys valued MKI. Its lies thats why. If your objective is to placate domestic audience - then these are things that you will do.


 
Because Mig-21 kill came with a wreckage and a pilot who was the face of Indian government embarrassment while Su-30 wreckage and pilot were hidden from public... but dont worry few days from now on 1st year anniversary more evidence will be presented.



> Utter BS. First your lies that Spice 2K can only be mated with M84 was called out ..then you are resorting to 'But IAF only has Mk84' ..its just plain stupid and retarded. Ofcourse if you can prove it otherwise. IAF has its disposal different munitions just like IsAF has.



heeeyyyyy doooooooooooooooooont lie dooooooooooooooont lie okay 
this is what i said that you interpreted it with your imagination.
"Spice-2000 uses MK-84 which has 2,000 lbs and almost 1,000 lbs of HE"



> Dont wnat to do your work. It was not 2000lbs, it was much lower TNT. Further it depends on ground penetration. For starters look at the video posted in this thread of bunker busting bomb.


Indiot, only 2,000 lbs can be "mated" with spice.



> Hmaid mir...hahaha ..really ? Sure he used to ask tough questions. But then he got a bullet or two , after that he has suddenly become uber patriotic. Please take this BS somewhere else. ISPR stands for transparency..ROFL.


Whats wrong with being "uber patriotic"? So now to you someone who is patriotic to Pakistan is notttttttttttt gooooddddddddddd?



> Its not a story. Its reality. IAF said the very day - Cristal Maze malfunctioned or it could not be released. As a result, we dont have recording. Like i said - information warefare is not central to the plans otherwise redudancy would have been built in.


Which part of "each spice is independent from each other" do you not understand?
so why all 5 would malfunction? See, you have to lie 1,000 times to cover 1 lie 


> By the way - why did you guys close your airspace for 6 months and more ? What spooked the much vaunted PAK fazaya ? lol


Because Pakistan has regard for human lives unlike cowards in the east which on purpose flew their spicejet with IAF code to force PAF and thus their cunning agenda was exposed.

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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Why should pakistan join propaganda club against China?
> Let me repeat again, China is more safer for Pakistanis then India is safer for Indians. Should I remind you again how many millions of people die in India each year from rape HIV AIDS malaria etc? So should everybody start fleeing India?


But ofcourse a country which has no shame will resort to these statements. What hope a country can have when its president quotes haddith instead of a action plan. Heck it also can never get rid of slave mentality - always will depend on other country to do its work. First it was sucking up to americans, then chinese..soon thoorkey. Your erstwhile east pakistan also managed to evacuate its students, heck even lankans and maldives also evacuated..but you guys dont even have the capability. Utter shame - doesnt matter how you spin it.



> Like i said, the doosra banda is now your jeejuu g. btw ISPR clarified communication mistake which is expected during fog of war. One unit on ground reported one pilot captured (abhi) and other unit who treated abhi in hospital also reported him so this was translated as 2 pilots.
> Also all PAF pilots have patches such as flag and name and also have a tongue and can speak in urdu so had the pilot been captured by villagers they would have known he is one of ours.
> Go watch abhi's captured videos where villagers asked him questions to confirm his indian identity before getting a beating. It only happens in Indian imaginary world where they think a PAF pilot was beaten by villagers despite all evidence of him being Pakistani. Also if Pakistan was trying to cover up PAF losses then they would not simply disclose him to media and thats a simple logic which indiots fail to comprehend.
> and since India can not provide substantial international standard non propaganda evidence so they are resorting to finding mistakes in ISPR statements.


This is the most hilarious explanation. I am seriously amused as to how the population be so gullible. Gafoora mentioned about doosra banda for 2 days - he is not some badshah khan who is sepoy; he is DGISPR. Fog of war - exists for an hour or two ! Not for 2 days..Heck your PM also announced on the floor and even grandiously said 'we will treat doosra banda well'..poor fellow 'A PAF pilot died and was not recognized by its country' ; but then its not surprising, so many NLI were never recognized in kargil as well. 



> You mean that guy who fools his fanboys with his imaginations? Yah, sure he was a fighter pilot... do you have a picture of him in a cockpit? because i only see this monkey in a bush plane pretending to be a top gun pilot.
> Before I was banned from twitter (because Indians can not stand to truth) i owned this guy every time he uttered a word about this imaginary F-16 kill. First he tried persuading his fanboys that the Mig-21 wreckage images and videos are that of F-16 like the below image of Mig-21 was claimed as F-16 engine cowling
> or are you one of those slow learners who still believes this is f-16 engine.



Yup he is a Mirage pilot of the same squadron who intruded into Balakot. So he knows a thing or two. And did you say -- you owned this guy ? Hahahahahahaha...i doubt you can own the kid staying in your building. He is a professional , there are enough professionals in PAF - let them deal with him. You are orbiting at a much lower level. 



> LOL did you seriously had to bring this? more humiliation for IAF fanboys
> I infact took part of this discussion on that forum. initially few non indian members believed F-16 was downed but within few weeks of the incidents they all realized that just like scam calls this is indeed another scam by Indian propaganda factory.



You took part in nothing ! All you are doing is huffing and puffing nose in pdf - nothing else.People who parrot these kind of dialogues are the ones who usually dont do anything. Rest of the theory - you wrote is garbage. It is never based on singular evidence - its multiple pieces of evidence. 2 parachutes , radar intercepts, comm intercepts, EW signatures , visual sightings , video evidences - everything corborates to the fact that second plane went down and it wasnt a IAF one. 



> *In 1947 India was sliced and diced*
> And then in 1948 we took almost half of kashmir from 2-3 times bigger military.
> The only military achievement India could ever accomplish was from already geographically divided Pakistan which was 1,000 miles apart and in a civil war.



Chalo - atleast you acknowledged your Indian ancestry. Lot of people in this forum are confused about that. Anyways - keep on trying ! Like i said , you lost half of your country in 71 (god bless them, they are doing very well). We are just waiting to split it more. By the way - you guys were planning to do a lot after Article370 , ahem what exactly happened ? Hows the Friday 5 min thing going on ? 



> you mean radar intercepts made on MS paint?


Wait i am actually looking at the radar intercepts furnished by PAF. Crap - i was dreaming. Yes , the kind of intercepts which were not furnished by PAF. And they wont. Because their lies will be caught. Tufail tried to publish - but then redacted it. IAF on the other hand - has had one consistent story ! Never , ever changed. 



> And being like a good slave boy you bleived it without asking a question, "could it be random Su-30s that may have flown for face saving"?



Ohh dear sony. You see it doesnt work like that. If you are claiming something - then you have to provide evidence/proof. You guys are claiming that you shot down Su 30 - Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that the one which flew on republic day is not the same. You make a claim, you provide the proof - isnt it elementary ? Ohh wait, thats where education comes in. 



> Because Mig-21 kill came with a wreckage and a pilot who was the face of Indian government embarrassment while Su-30 wreckage and pilot were hidden from public... but dont worry few days from now on 1st year anniversary more evidence will be presented.



Wait...what ??????? Thats your rationale...seriously ? Is that the official line ? By the way - can you send me link for official citation of the pilot which shot down Su 30 - please i now really want to read it. What a professional force - but then its not surprising. MM Alams60 second false hood is considered true, so..anythings possible
I am eagerly waiting for 27th and the new evidences that it will herald. 



> heeeyyyyy doooooooooooooooooont lie dooooooooooooooont lie okay
> this is what i said that you interpreted it with your imagination.
> "Spice-2000 uses MK-84 which has 2,000 lbs and almost 1,000 lbs of HE"


Yeah you just reiterated your lie ! Spice can use many other types of munitions including low TNT ones. You are keeping on harping about only MK 84. Fact is - you dont know. 



> Indiot, only 2,000 lbs can be "mated" with spice.


are you serious ? I mean whats the point ? You are reiterating to make yourself understand ? One more time - trying in a different way. 2000lb's - doesnt mean 1000 lbs of HE or2000 lbs of he. Weight can be 2000 LB's which is why the name SPICE 2000 - the TNT yield will vary depending on the munition and the mission profile. 



> Whats wrong with being "uber patriotic"? So now to you someone who is patriotic to Pakistan is notttttttttttt gooooddddddddddd?


Nothing wrong ! But you referred Hamid Mir as a shining beacon of asking tough questions to Army. He has become a cheerleader after getting couple of bullets. essentially its a banana republic. And PAK armed forces is the major business organization. Do you know how much business your Armed forces owns ?



> Which part of "each spice is independent from each other" do you not understand?
> so why all 5 would malfunction?


And you said you had a debate with Sameer ? Spice & Crystal Maze = two differnt munitons. Crystal Maze = Has TV seeker and live image is relayed back. Spice version that we had did not have that capability. So India due to its utter lack of experience in information warefare - never built redudancy into its plan. CrytalMaze malfunctioned and out went the recording. These statements - were told by IAF the exact same day. Again - clear communication ! It will stand test of time - because its the truth.



> See, you have to lie 1,000 times to cover 1 lie


reminds me of Gafoor. 



> Because Pakistan has regard for human lives unlike cowards in the east which on purpose flew their spicejet with IAF code to force PAF and thus their cunning agenda was exposed.



High regardof human lives...hehe. Do you even believe what you write ? Or you write because you are convincing yourself. I mean even a kid could see the fallacy in logic here. 
6 months of air space closure essentially PAF was really spooked ! PAK fazaiya. Indian airspace was not closed for even 1 minute. What happened that spooked them so much ?? What a chronology of events - right from crows killed - but we will not take anyone to the site ; we have doosra banda with us ; we never used F16 - mother promise ; That Amraam is not ours - its Taiwanese Amraam ; i can just go on and on...Anyways truth will come out one day; It always does!


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## Haris Ali2140

anathema said:


> But ofcourse a country which has no shame will resort to these statements. What hope a country can have when its president quotes haddith instead of a action plan. Heck it also can never get rid of slave mentality - always will depend on other country to do its work. First it was sucking up to americans, then chinese..soon thoorkey. Your erstwhile east pakistan also managed to evacuate its students, heck even lankans and maldives also evacuated..but you guys dont even have the capability. Utter shame - doesnt matter how you spin it.
> 
> 
> This is the most hilarious explanation. I am seriously amused as to how the population be so gullible. Gafoora mentioned about doosra banda for 2 days - he is not some badshah khan who is sepoy; he is DGISPR. Fog of war - exists for an hour or two ! Not for 2 days..Heck your PM also announced on the floor and even grandiously said 'we will treat doosra banda well'..poor fellow 'A PAF pilot died and was not recognized by its country' ; but then its not surprising, so many NLI were never recognized in kargil as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup he is a Mirage pilot of the same squadron who intruded into Balakot. So he knows a thing or two. And did you say -- you owned this guy ? Hahahahahahaha...i doubt you can own the kid staying in your building. He is a professional , there are enough professionals in PAF - let them deal with him. You are orbiting at a much lower level.
> 
> 
> 
> You took part in nothing ! All you are doing is huffing and puffing nose in pdf - nothing else.People who parrot these kind of dialogues are the ones who usually dont do anything. Rest of the theory - you wrote is garbage. It is never based on singular evidence - its multiple pieces of evidence. 2 parachutes , radar intercepts, comm intercepts, EW signatures , visual sightings , video evidences - everything corborates to the fact that second plane went down and it wasnt a IAF one.
> 
> 
> 
> Chalo - atleast you acknowledged your Indian ancestry. Lot of people in this forum are confused about that. Anyways - keep on trying ! Like i said , you lost half of your country in 71 (god bless them, they are doing very well). We are just waiting to split it more. By the way - you guys were planning to do a lot after Article370 , ahem what exactly happened ? Hows the Friday 5 min thing going on ?
> 
> 
> Wait i am actually looking at the radar intercepts furnished by PAF. Crap - i was dreaming. Yes , the kind of intercepts which were not furnished by PAF. And they wont. Because their lies will be caught. Tufail tried to publish - but then redacted it. IAF on the other hand - has had one consistent story ! Never , ever changed.
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh dear sony. You see it doesnt work like that. If you are claiming something - then you have to provide evidence/proof. You guys are claiming that you shot down Su 30 - Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that the one which flew on republic day is not the same. You make a claim, you provide the proof - isnt it elementary ? Ohh wait, thats where education comes in.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait...what ??????? Thats your rationale...seriously ? Is that the official line ? By the way - can you send me link for official citation of the pilot which shot down Su 30 - please i now really want to read it. What a professional force - but then its not surprising. MM Alams60 second false hood is considered true, so..anythings possible
> I am eagerly waiting for 27th and the new evidences that it will herald.
> 
> 
> Yeah you just reiterated your lie ! Spice can use many other types of munitions including low TNT ones. You are keeping on harping about only MK 84. Fact is - you dont know.
> 
> 
> are you serious ? I mean whats the point ? You are reiterating to make yourself understand ? One more time - trying in a different way. 2000lb's - doesnt mean 1000 lbs of HE or2000 lbs of he. Weight can be 2000 LB's which is why the name SPICE 2000 - the TNT yield will vary depending on the munition and the mission profile.
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong ! But you referred Hamid Mir as a shining beacon of asking tough questions to Army. He has become a cheerleader after getting couple of bullets. essentially its a banana republic. And PAK armed forces is the major business organization. Do you know how much business your Armed forces owns ?
> 
> 
> And you said you had a debate with Sameer ? Spice & Crystal Maze = two differnt munitons. Crystal Maze = Has TV seeker and live image is relayed back. Spice version that we had did not have that capability. So India due to its utter lack of experience in information warefare - never built redudancy into its plan. CrytalMaze malfunctioned and out went the recording. These statements - were told by IAF the exact same day. Again - clear communication ! It will stand test of time - because its the truth.
> 
> 
> reminds me of Gafoor.
> 
> 
> 
> High regardof human lives...hehe. Do you even believe what you write ? Or you write because you are convincing yourself. I mean even a kid could see the fallacy in logic here.
> 6 months of air space closure essentially PAF was really spooked ! PAK fazaiya. Indian airspace was not closed for even 1 minute. What happened that spooked them so much ?? What a chronology of events - right from crows killed - but we will not take anyone to the site ; we have doosra banda with us ; we never used F16 - mother promise ; That Amraam is not ours - its Taiwanese Amraam ; i can just go on and on...Anyways truth will come out one day; It always does!



Air space was closed because we were waiting for retaliation and was closed fro civilian use not military. Syrian air space is closed. Does it prevent Americans, French, Israelis carrying out their strikes???

Spice 2000 is created to carry out 1000 lbs. Changing warhead will effect the weight distribution and the flight characteristics. Its basic physics.

You are asking us proof of SU 30. We dont have it. Where is your proof of F-16??? You only have one statement tod doosra banda. Meanwhile on 27th your MEA siad no plane went down until Abhi was shown on TV hours later then you accepted it.

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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> But ofcourse a country which has no shame will resort to these statements. What hope a country can have when its president quotes haddith instead of a action plan. Heck it also can never get rid of slave mentality - always will depend on other country to do its work. First it was sucking up to americans, then chinese..soon thoorkey. Your erstwhile east pakistan also managed to evacuate its students, heck even lankans and maldives also evacuated..but you guys dont even have the capability. Utter shame - doesnt matter how you spin it.



Again, let me repeat. Pakistanis are more safer in China then Indians are in India. Am i wrong? 



> This is the most hilarious explanation. I am seriously amused as to how the population be so gullible. Gafoora mentioned about doosra banda for 2 days - he is not some badshah khan who is sepoy; he is DGISPR. Fog of war - exists for an hour or two ! Not for 2 days..Heck your PM also announced on the floor and even grandiously said 'we will treat doosra banda well'..poor fellow 'A PAF pilot died and was not recognized by its country' ; but then its not surprising, so many NLI were never recognized in kargil as well.



doosra banda is your jeejuu g. 

Its only Indian imagination to believe Pakistanis can not recognize a Pakistani who is wearing a pakistani flag and his name on his uniform and the language he speaks. 



> Yup he is a Mirage pilot of the same squadron who intruded into Balakot. So he knows a thing or two. And did you say -- you owned this guy ? Hahahahahahaha...i doubt you can own the kid staying in your building. He is a professional , there are enough professionals in PAF - let them deal with him. You are orbiting at a much lower level.


Every fighter pilot on social media has at least one picture of himself in his fighter jet he flew. that sameer joshi is a bush plane pilot with a monkey hairstyle who looks like this and doodles his imaginations on a picture of contrails. 









> You took part in nothing ! All you are doing is huffing and puffing nose in pdf - nothing else.People who parrot these kind of dialogues are the ones who usually dont do anything. Rest of the theory - you wrote is garbage.


Why do you keep portraying yourself which is the only thing you are good at in pdf. 


> It is never based on singular evidence - its multiple pieces of evidence. 2 parachutes , radar intercepts, comm intercepts, EW signatures , visual sightings , video evidences - everything corborates to the fact that second plane went down and it wasnt a IAF one.


Its funny how your f-16.net forum "reference" backfired on you big time and you ran away from it. 


Here is a reference from f-16.net forum member who has provided evidence that mig-21 has two parachutes. one for pilot and one for ejection seat. the ejection seat chute is what made villagers mistake for another pilot. 



Alright then, I didn't bother with this crap when the event happened, but now since some still try to concoct some sort of "evidence", let's examine some real evidence, shall we?


This is dedicated to everyone believing in "SECOND PARACHUTE" story irreversibly proving a second aircraft was downed:

Soviet planes had several iterations of ejection seats, including but not limited to K-22, KS, KM-1, KT-1, K-36 etc.

Here's how a K-22, a seat used in MiG-19 worked:






One couldn't help but noticing that a separate stabilizing/main chute deployment parachute exists.

The venerable MiG-21 used several different seats, with early models having KS, which in the later models, including MiG-21bis, were upgraded to KM-1 ejection seat. And it's my pleasure to inform the entire congregation of "Second Chute Church" that after the ejection the seat also deploys it's own parachute and lands in the immediate vicinity of the pilot. "Why would they do that?", one may wonder? Well you see, the seat carried the survival kit for the pilot (НАЗ-7), so it had to land near the pilot for him to be able to use that, as neatly illustrated by this caricature from the polish magazine. Whoever doubts me may type all that text manually into translator. I didn't do that, because I believe it will be pretty identical to the russian sources I found online.






They say that the picture is worth that a thousand words, so let me post some for your entertainment:

Exhibit 1: LNA Fishbed shot down in Libya this summer, pilot ejected, survived, captured. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:






Exhibit 2: Libyan Air Force Flogger (MiG-23 also used KM-1) shot down over Benghazi in spring 2011, pilot ejected, survived. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:






Now to the videos, I found one quite interesting and informative. It's mainly about Soviet K-36 (an impressive specimen to say the least!), but I believe there's footage of Fishbed also (maybe KM-1, maybe modified to accept K-36) at 0:55 mark:

Exhibit 3a: @00:55-01:03 a single person ejects from a plane that looks a lot like Fishbed then transforms into two separate chutes, because the seat has it's own
Exhibit 3b: @01:47-01:54 we see footage of Fullback ejection. It apparently uses older generation of K-36 seat, because two ejected dummies are separatee from their seats... which soon after deploy their own chutes, doubling the number of chutes. Note that the seat chutes are slightly different from persons' chutes. I hope none of you are going to claim a four-seater Fullback exists.
Exhibit 3c: @01:55-02:00 we are treated to a footage of ejection from the tail of a "flying lab". I believe this is also an early gen K-36. As one can notice (watch at 0,25 speed) the seat deploys it's own chute and can be seen dangling near by the pilot in the upper right corner after disappearing from the frame for a second.



"Well why don't you see seat having their own chutes in some well documented crashes at airshows?" Well, I got two versions for that. Either it's disabled/removed because the pilots don't need survival kit at the airshow, OR they were equipped with later gen K-36 (called K-36M, K-36D and K-36D-3,5) which got rid of the seat chute in lieu of strapping survival kit (upgraded to НАЗ-8) directly to the pilot:






Actually, one can see footage @01:16-01:19 of ejected pilot with a raft dangling beneath him after two Fulcrums collided at 1993 RIAT. Or one can look up footage of Fencer shot down by Turks. It also features two pilots parachuting down with rafts dangling beneath them. Su-24 was the first aircraft to feature K-36 seat and thus is eligible to be upgraded to newer K-36 models.

So there you have it: the second chute apparently seen by the locals (but so far absent from any footage) is not a conclusive proof of the second downed aircraft, since MiG-21 would have produced two chutes by itself.



> Chalo - atleast you acknowledged your Indian ancestry. Lot of people in this forum are confused about that. Anyways - keep on trying ! Like i said , you lost half of your country in 71 (god bless them, they are doing very well). We are just waiting to split it more. By the way - you guys were planning to do a lot after Article370 , ahem what exactly happened ? Hows the Friday 5 min thing going on ?



The word India and Hind is a foreign given name that you guys accepted as your identity like good slaves. while the word pakistan was made by muslims who did not want to be part of India. lol




> Wait i am actually looking at the radar intercepts furnished by PAF. Crap - i was dreaming. Yes , the kind of intercepts which were not furnished by PAF. And they wont. Because their lies will be caught. Tufail tried to publish - but then redacted it. IAF on the other hand - has had one consistent story ! Never , ever changed.


PAF does not come up with MS paint propaganda, thats IAF trademark along with "CONSISTENT PACK OF LIES STORIES". 




> Ohh dear sony. You see it doesnt work like that. If you are claiming something - then you have to provide evidence/proof. You guys are claiming that you shot down Su 30 - Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that the one which flew on republic day is not the same. You make a claim, you provide the proof - isnt it elementary ? Ohh wait, thats where education comes in.


Dont worry it will slowly come out. the thing is PAF is trolling India. 




> Wait...what ??????? Thats your rationale...seriously ? Is that the official line ? By the way - can you send me link for official citation of the pilot which shot down Su 30 - please i now really want to read it. What a professional force - but then its not surprising. MM Alams60 second false hood is considered true, so..anythings possible
> I am eagerly waiting for 27th and the new evidences that it will herald.


Yes thats the official line
Yes MM alam shot down 6 IAF planes in 60 seconds just like IAF Mig-21 fleet was whipped out in one strike in 1965 war(evidence, HINT "mig-21s did not see any actions after the attack"). lol



> Yeah you just reiterated your lie ! Spice can use many other types of munitions including low TNT ones. You are keeping on harping about only MK 84. Fact is - you dont know.


You can imagine what ever you want to. But the fact is IAF has only mk-84 that can be "mated" with spice-2000. And their is no such thing as "low" TNT in mk-84. 



> are you serious ? I mean whats the point ? You are reiterating to make yourself understand ? One more time - trying in a different way. 2000lb's - doesnt mean 1000 lbs of HE or2000 lbs of he. Weight can be 2000 LB's which is why the name SPICE 2000 - the TNT yield will vary depending on the munition and the mission profile.



Indiot, in case of MK-84 2,000lbs means 1,000 lbs of metal and 1,000 of TNT. Its not a lego block which you can simply open and reduce 1,000 of TNT to 200 lbs which then would not be a 2,000lbs. use some logic when you speak.



> Nothing wrong ! But you referred Hamid Mir as a shining beacon of asking tough questions to Army. He has become a cheerleader after getting couple of bullets. essentially its a banana republic. And PAK armed forces is the major business organization. Do you know how much business your Armed forces owns ?



Now when you come back from your imaginations, do let me know when independent press can ask question from Indian military. 



> And you said you had a debate with Sameer ? Spice & Crystal Maze = two differnt munitons. Crystal Maze = Has TV seeker and live image is relayed back. Spice version that we had did not have that capability. So India due to its utter lack of experience in information warefare - never built redudancy into its plan. CrytalMaze malfunctioned and out went the recording. These statements - were told by IAF the exact same day. Again - clear communication ! It will stand test of time - because its the truth.



Stop coming up excuses. footage relay is a standard feature among all spice-2000 and again if one spice-2000 footage system failed then their were 4 other independent spice.
here is a footage of spice operating back in 2010. 







> High regardof human lives...hehe. Do you even believe what you write ? Or you write because you are convincing yourself. I mean even a kid could see the fallacy in logic here.



HEHE..... the logic is India tried to plot a plan to kill its own citizens by assigning IAF code to passenger airline. It was a deliberate act which can not be done as a mistake. 


> 6 months of air space closure essentially PAF was really spooked ! PAK fazaiya.


this was explained earlier, you are just repeating yourself. 


> Indian airspace was not closed for even 1 minute. What happened that spooked them so much ??


thats so that IAF could take cover among passenger flights to avoid further air strikes by PAF. bunch of cowards, first they use passenger flights to use as human shields for IAF and then they send Spicejet with IAF code. 


> What a chronology of events - right from crows killed - but we will not take anyone to the site ;


and we actually have chronology of Indian lies... first Spice-2000 lost footage and then have satellite images but can not share them... waahhh 



> we have doosra banda with us


I told you thats your jeejuuu g. 


> ; we never used F16 - mother promise


PAF said it was never used in violation of indian sovereignty which mirage and jf-17 did after they drop payload in vicinity of IAF military sites to avoid human casualties. F-16 were used within pak territory which made su-30 and mirage ran away but one su-30 was caught. 


> ; That Amraam is not ours - its Taiwanese Amraam ; i can just go on and on...Anyways truth will come out one day; It always does!


what happend to other 4 amraams which iaf claims that were fired? the thing is that amrram was pulled out of su-30 wreckage within few hours of the incident and then rest amraam were never found till this date.

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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Again, let me repeat. Pakistanis are more safer in China then Indians are in India. Am i wrong?


Pakistanis are more safer in china - is your outlook. It shows no belief in the country. Just carry on quoting haddiths.




> doosra banda is your jeejuu g.
> 
> Its only Indian imagination to believe Pakistanis can not recognize a Pakistani who is wearing a pakistani flag and his name on his uniform and the language he speaks.


Wouldnt be the first time in the world where a soldier was killed by their own side. Between soldiers on both sides are taught basic language skills/survival skills when they are shot down. The parachute drift - makes it impossible to tell which side of LOC you are on. The fact that abhi was caught , news spread - would make it implictly dangerous for the other dceased pilot. 




> Why do you keep portraying yourself which is the only thing you are good at in pdf.


For someone who potrays himself - as i took down a fighter pilot on twitter and i did this on F16 forum- you are full of gas. Like i said - you did nothing.



> Its funny how your f-16.net forum "reference" backfired on you big time and you ran away from it.
> 
> 
> Here is a reference from f-16.net forum member who has provided evidence that mig-21 has two parachutes. one for pilot and one for ejection seat. the ejection seat chute is what made villagers mistake for another pilot.



Once again - looking at singular evidence parachute and concluding the point of view is irrelevant. Multiple evidences suggest the fact another plane went down - it was not an IAF one. By the way - what is the color of parachutes on F16 ? Just curious..



> The word India and Hind is a foreign given name that you guys accepted as your identity like good slaves. while the word pakistan was made by muslims who did not want to be part of India. lol


Doesnt matter- it doesnt make you devoid of your indian lineage. You and your forefathers are converts..lol. You guys dont even have an identity. 



> PAF does not come up with MS paint propaganda, thats IAF trademark along with "CONSISTENT PACK OF LIES STORIES".


PAF does not -because it cannot. IAF made the radar intercept public - go ahead ask your PAF to do the battle picture with radar intercepts. They wont - since they will be caught.



> Dont worry it will slowly come out. the thing is PAF is trolling India.


I have no worries. What we know - is on record from Day 1. There were lessons learnt , we had our shortcomings. It was noted and is being addressed. PAK has a history of lying to its own citizens - so you guys should be worried on what comes out.



> Yes thats the official line
> Yes MM alam shot down 6 IAF planes in 60 seconds just like IAF Mig-21 fleet was whipped out in one strike in 1965 war(evidence, HINT "mig-21s did not see any actions after the attack"). lol


Just what a i thought - heres myth buster who believes in 60 second - 6 planes story. Why dont you read books by your PAF personnel on how the story was concoted.



> You can imagine what ever you want to. But the fact is IAF has only mk-84 that can be "mated" with spice-2000. And their is no such thing as "low" TNT in mk-84.


You can imagine whatever - is a line used when the other side has run out execuses. Spice 2K can be mated with differnet munitions. One of them is MK84 - its open knowledge. You can alter the TNT component based on the combination choosen. So the thing is you dont know.



> Now when you come back from your imaginations, do let me know when independent press can ask question from Indian military.


Indepent press can ask questions all the time from Military. They infact grill military and our politicians do as well. You cant do that - can you ? Then there will be a coup. You see your military is not a military - its a business organization. They do dhanda ! Thats why its so important for them to placate domestic audience - they would loose business and plots , if thats not the case.



> Stop coming up excuses. footage relay is a standard feature among all spice-2000 and again if one spice-2000 footage system failed then their were 4 other independent spice.
> here is a footage of spice operating back in 2010.


Go cry a river. Its not standard feature - its optional one. It costs you. Footage relay incase of SPICE is linked through satellite - since pilot/WSO is not in control when the bomb is lobbed. Its extra hardware - extra charge. IAF - did not have the presence of mind to include it as standard kit. Penny wise - pound foolish. Big lesson 



> this was explained earlier, you are just repeating yourself.
> thats so that IAF could take cover among passenger flights to avoid further air strikes by PAF. bunch of cowards, first they use passenger flights to use as human shields for IAF and then they send Spicejet with IAF code.


Really - thats your rational of closing airspace for 6 months. You are extremely gullible. Its a logic that nursery kids wont give. No - your theories are absurd. Something spooked PAF big time to lock its airspace - it got scarred.



> and we actually have chronology of Indian lies... first Spice-2000 lost footage and then have satellite images but can not share them... waahhh


You do understand chronology - do they teach anything at school. Here's the thing - IAF made a statement the next day and it has never wavered from it. DGISPR - chronology of events is a like a change in every couple of days. 



> PAF said it was never used in violation of indian sovereignty which mirage and jf-17 did after they drop payload in vicinity of IAF military sites to avoid human casualties. F-16 were used within pak territory which made su-30 and mirage ran away but one su-30 was caught.



PAF goofed up - if signalling was the intention then nothing explains the wayward targetting that was done. Anyways thats a differnt topic. Here's the thing - Gafoora lied and was caught. He said F16 were never used - and voila the changed the stance after IAF showed the Amraam. And you know what - posters like you on PDF were claiming "Amraams can be fired by JF17's". Thats the delusional state you guys are in. Pack of lies - one statement over riding the another. So tell me - which pilot was credited for Su 30 ? And what as the plane used? Was it F16 ? 



> what happend to other 4 amraams which iaf claims that were fired? the thing is that amrram was pulled out of su-30 wreckage within few hours of the incident and then rest amraam were never found till this date.


Lol-- you are joker arent you. World has never found Malaysian airliner which disappeared ! IAF took more than 60 days to find a full fledged dornier which crashed in Meghalayan jungles due to dense foliage. And you are talking about finding AIM's in Kashmir jungles - AIM's which self destructs at max ranges. Good luck finding those ! The one Amraam that was discovered was pure luck i guess. After all 5 of them were fired. Anyways even if they are found - what do you think will happen ? IAF achieved its objective - it proved to the world that they are seeing/witnessing an incompetent and a force which lies through their teeth. No wonder American diplomats call you guys a bunch big liars.

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## Khan vilatey

anathema said:


> Pakistanis are more safer in china - is your outlook. It shows no belief in the country. Just carry on quoting haddiths.
> 
> 
> Wow, wow wow so you are disputing that at least one most likely two Indian air force aircraft were shot down by PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldnt be the first time in the world where a soldier was killed by their own side. Between soldiers on both sides are taught basic language skills/survival skills when they are shot down. The parachute drift - makes it impossible to tell which side of LOC you are on. The fact that abhi was caught , news spread - would make it implictly dangerous for the other dceased pilot.
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who potrays himself - as i took down a fighter pilot on twitter and i did this on F16 forum- you are full of gas. Like i said - you did nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again - looking at singular evidence parachute and concluding the point of view is irrelevant. Multiple evidences suggest the fact another plane went down - it was not an IAF one. By the way - what is the color of parachutes on F16 ? Just curious..
> 
> 
> Doesnt matter- it doesnt make you devoid of your indian lineage. You and your forefathers are converts..lol. You guys dont even have an identity.
> 
> 
> PAF does not -because it cannot. IAF made the radar intercept public - go ahead ask your PAF to do the battle picture with radar intercepts. They wont - since they will be caught.
> 
> 
> I have no worries. What we know - is on record from Day 1. There were lessons learnt , we had our shortcomings. It was noted and is being addressed. PAK has a history of lying to its own citizens - so you guys should be worried on what comes out.
> 
> 
> Just what a i thought - heres myth buster who believes in 60 second - 6 planes story. Why dont you read books by your PAF personnel on how the story was concoted.
> 
> 
> You can imagine whatever - is a line used when the other side has run out execuses. Spice 2K can be mated with differnet munitions. One of them is MK84 - its open knowledge. You can alter the TNT component based on the combination choosen. So the thing is you dont know.
> 
> 
> Indepent press can ask questions all the time from Military. They infact grill military and our politicians do as well. You cant do that - can you ? Then there will be a coup. You see your military is not a military - its a business organization. They do dhanda ! Thats why its so important for them to placate domestic audience - they would loose business and plots , if thats not the case.
> 
> 
> Go cry a river. Its not standard feature - its optional one. It costs you. Footage relay incase of SPICE is linked through satellite - since pilot/WSO is not in control when the bomb is lobbed. Its extra hardware - extra charge. IAF - did not have the presence of mind to include it as standard kit. Penny wise - pound foolish. Big lesson
> 
> 
> Really - thats your rational of closing airspace for 6 months. You are extremely gullible. Its a logic that nursery kids wont give. No - your theories are absurd. Something spooked PAF big time to lock its airspace - it got scarred.
> 
> 
> You do understand chronology - do they teach anything at school. Here's the thing - IAF made a statement the next day and it has never wavered from it. DGISPR - chronology of events is a like a change in every couple of days.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF goofed up - if signalling was the intention then nothing explains the wayward targetting that was done. Anyways thats a differnt topic. Here's the thing - Gafoora lied and was caught. He said F16 were never used - and voila the changed the stance after IAF showed the Amraam. And you know what - posters like you on PDF were claiming "Amraams can be fired by JF17's". Thats the delusional state you guys are in. Pack of lies - one statement over riding the another. So tell me - which pilot was credited for Su 30 ? And what as the plane used? Was it F16 ?
> 
> 
> Lol-- you are joker arent you. World has never found Malaysian airliner which disappeared ! IAF took more than 60 days to find a full fledged dornier which crashed in Meghalayan jungles due to dense foliage. And you are talking about finding AIM's in Kashmir jungles - AIM's which self destructs at max ranges. Good luck finding those ! The one Amraam that was discovered was pure luck i guess. After all 5 of them were fired. Anyways even if they are found - what do you think will happen ? IAF achieved its objective - it proved to the world that they are seeing/witnessing an incompetent and a force which lies through their teeth. No wonder American diplomats call you guys a bunch big liars.





anathema said:


> Pakistanis are more safer in china - is your outlook. It shows no belief in the country. Just carry on quoting haddiths.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldnt be the first time in the world where a soldier was killed by their own side. Between soldiers on both sides are taught basic language skills/survival skills when they are shot down. The parachute drift - makes it impossible to tell which side of LOC you are on. The fact that abhi was caught , news spread - would make it implictly dangerous for the other dceased pilot.
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who potrays himself - as i took down a fighter pilot on twitter and i did this on F16 forum- you are full of gas. Like i said - you did nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again - looking at singular evidence parachute and concluding the point of view is irrelevant. Multiple evidences suggest the fact another plane went down - it was not an IAF one. By the way - what is the color of parachutes on F16 ? Just curious..
> 
> 
> Doesnt matter- it doesnt make you devoid of your indian lineage. You and your forefathers are converts..lol. You guys dont even have an identity.
> 
> 
> PAF does not -because it cannot. IAF made the radar intercept public - go ahead ask your PAF to do the battle picture with radar intercepts. They wont - since they will be caught.
> 
> 
> I have no worries. What we know - is on record from Day 1. There were lessons learnt , we had our shortcomings. It was noted and is being addressed. PAK has a history of lying to its own citizens - so you guys should be worried on what comes out.
> 
> 
> Just what a i thought - heres myth buster who believes in 60 second - 6 planes story. Why dont you read books by your PAF personnel on how the story was concoted.
> 
> 
> You can imagine whatever - is a line used when the other side has run out execuses. Spice 2K can be mated with differnet munitions. One of them is MK84 - its open knowledge. You can alter the TNT component based on the combination choosen. So the thing is you dont know.
> 
> 
> Indepent press can ask questions all the time from Military. They infact grill military and our politicians do as well. You cant do that - can you ? Then there will be a coup. You see your military is not a military - its a business organization. They do dhanda ! Thats why its so important for them to placate domestic audience - they would loose business and plots , if thats not the case.
> 
> 
> Go cry a river. Its not standard feature - its optional one. It costs you. Footage relay incase of SPICE is linked through satellite - since pilot/WSO is not in control when the bomb is lobbed. Its extra hardware - extra charge. IAF - did not have the presence of mind to include it as standard kit. Penny wise - pound foolish. Big lesson
> 
> 
> Really - thats your rational of closing airspace for 6 months. You are extremely gullible. Its a logic that nursery kids wont give. No - your theories are absurd. Something spooked PAF big time to lock its airspace - it got scarred.
> 
> 
> You do understand chronology - do they teach anything at school. Here's the thing - IAF made a statement the next day and it has never wavered from it. DGISPR - chronology of events is a like a change in every couple of days.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF goofed up - if signalling was the intention then nothing explains the wayward targetting that was done. Anyways thats a differnt topic. Here's the thing - Gafoora lied and was caught. He said F16 were never used - and voila the changed the stance after IAF showed the Amraam. And you know what - posters like you on PDF were claiming "Amraams can be fired by JF17's". Thats the delusional state you guys are in. Pack of lies - one statement over riding the another. So tell me - which pilot was credited for Su 30 ? And what as the plane used? Was it F16 ?
> 
> 
> Lol-- you are joker arent you. World has never found Malaysian airliner which disappeared ! IAF took more than 60 days to find a full fledged dornier which crashed in Meghalayan jungles due to dense foliage. And you are talking about finding AIM's in Kashmir jungles - AIM's which self destructs at max ranges. Good luck finding those ! The one Amraam that was discovered was pure luck i guess. After all 5 of them were fired. Anyways even if they are found - what do you think will happen ? IAF achieved its objective - it proved to the world that they are seeing/witnessing an incompetent and a force which lies through their teeth. No wonder American diplomats call you guys a bunch big liars.



Wow, so are you saying that the IAF did not lose at least one maybe two aircraft to PAF action. You know we have the wreckage, the missiles and the pilot.

This is why I hate, unpatriotic Indians like you @anathema. You believe India to be only a third world cow piss drinking country. It’s so much more my friend. India has access to Israeli military satellites that have a Sub cm resolution and can pick up time on soldiers watch.

where are the pictures of the allegedly shot down Pakistani f-16?

have you got the Russian government to confirm that no su-30mki are missing ?

till you can confirm the above I think you have very limited come backs.


Awaiting patiently

KV


----------



## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Pakistanis are more safer in china - is your outlook. It shows no belief in the country. Just carry on quoting haddiths.



Again, let me remind you that Pakistanis are more safer in China then Indians are safer in India.
Meanwhile in India BJP government officials are promoting COW URINE.



> Wouldnt be the first time in the world where a soldier was killed by their own side. Between soldiers on both sides are taught basic language skills/survival skills when they are shot down. The parachute drift - makes it impossible to tell which side of LOC you are on. The fact that abhi was caught , news spread - would make it implictly dangerous for the other dceased pilot.


You are just resorting to running in circles with by spewing gibberish to prolong the discussion.
Let me repeat this for you again...
Its only Indian imagination to believe Pakistanis can not recognize a Pakistani who is wearing a pakistani flag and his name on his uniform and the language he speaks.
Also did it ever come to your head that by now PAF pilot video would have been leaked by now by same people who were shouting "doosra banda" aka your jeejuuu g. let me guess your next move..... Pakistani army deleted those footage from every villagers phone.



> For someone who potrays himself - as i took down a fighter pilot on twitter and i did this on F16 forum- you are full of gas. Like i said - you did nothing.



Since my twitter profile is banned by Indiot admins on twitter and have deleted most of my posts but i could find one of the example of what kind of low IQ IAF pilots i was dealing with.
I also came across one of many Indiot ex air force pilot Anshuman Mainkar on twitter who believed mig-21 wreckage belonged to F-16. He also insisted that this picture is that of F-16 containing a tail hook. (note since my account has been banned they also deleted pictures that i posted showing the panel matching with mig-21 fuselage.)  its so easy to beat even IAF fighter pilots. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1115648730122936322







> Once again - looking at singular evidence parachute and concluding the point of view is irrelevant. Multiple evidences suggest the fact another plane went down - it was not an IAF one. By the way - what is the color of parachutes on F16 ? Just curious..



singular evidence?
single seat Mig-21 has two parachutes, one belongs to pilot and one for ejection seat so which explains villagers misunderstanding with "dosra banda" who is now your jeejuu g.



> Doesnt matter- it doesnt make you devoid of your indian lineage. You and your forefathers are converts..lol. You guys dont even have an identity.


The only evidence indiots can provide is some statements from villagers which has no factual meaning.



> PAF does not -because it cannot. IAF made the radar intercept public - go ahead ask your PAF to do the battle picture with radar intercepts. They wont - since they will be caught.


PAF does not produce MS paint propaganda photos, thats IAF trademark.
PAF provides evidences like SOW footage which India failed to provide and 4 mig-21 missiles which were not even fired.


> I have no worries. What we know - is on record from Day 1. There were lessons learnt , we had our shortcomings. It was noted and is being addressed. PAK has a history of lying to its own citizens - so you guys should be worried on what comes out.


From Day 1 India is a pathological liar because its in their culture to lie.



> Just what a i thought - heres myth buster who believes in 60 second - 6 planes story. Why dont you read books by your PAF personnel on how the story was concoted.


Say it with me, MM Alam shot down 6 IAF superior Hunters with a Sabre.




> You can imagine whatever - is a line used when the other side has run out execuses.


Yah because their is no other explanation to your imagination.


> Spice 2K can be mated with differnet munitions. One of them is MK84 - its open knowledge. You can alter the TNT component based on the combination choosen. So the thing is you dont know.


Either shut the fk up or provide with list of "different munitions" in IAF inventory that can be "mated" (btw really stupid term to use) with Spice-2000. IAF has only MK-84 which is 2,000lbs with almost 1,000 tnt.



> Indepent press can ask questions all the time from Military. They infact grill military and our politicians do as well. You cant do that - can you ? Then there will be a coup. You see your military is not a military - its a business organization. They do dhanda ! Thats why its so important for them to placate domestic audience - they would loose business and plots , if thats not the case.


In which of post "failed" balakot strike did IAF or Indian military press conference had Q&A with media? The answer is NONE! ISPR has Q&A session in almost every press conference.



> Go cry a river. Its not standard feature - its optional one. It costs you. Footage relay incase of SPICE is linked through satellite - since pilot/WSO is not in control when the bomb is lobbed. Its extra hardware - extra charge. IAF - did not have the presence of mind to include it as standard kit. Penny wise - pound foolish. Big lesson


Seriously why am i even debating with this stupid Indiot who has a comprehension level of a rat!

here is a excerpt from BS Dhanoa latest statement.

*“We hit the target with five stand-off weapons. The ‘target hit’ information was delayed as weapons for video recording the kill failed, and the satellite pass at 8.30am could not pick up much due to clouds. The first confirmation came through synthetic aperture camera, showing penetration in the roof of Balakot buildings. We hit three buildings and left one deliberately. The weapon is designed in such a way that building survives but the occupants don’t,” he said.*

IAF spice2000 came with Video recording feature so it is blaming weather! Also spice is a all weather capable kit which also can operate independently from satellite. 



> Really - thats your rational of closing airspace for 6 months. You are extremely gullible. Its a logic that nursery kids wont give. No - your theories are absurd. Something spooked PAF big time to lock its airspace - it got scarred.


 Yah PAF was so scared of mighty IAF who lost Mig-21 Su-30 and mi-17 which due to PAF action IAF shot it down





> PAF goofed up - if signalling was the intention then nothing explains the wayward targetting that was done. Anyways thats a differnt topic. Here's the thing - Gafoora lied and was caught. He said F16 were never used - and voila the changed the stance after IAF showed the Amraam. And you know what - posters like you on PDF were claiming "Amraams can be fired by JF17's". Thats the delusional state you guys are in. Pack of lies - one statement over riding the another. So tell me - which pilot was credited for Su 30 ? And what as the plane used? Was it F16 ?


So without AMRAAM wreckage PAF was planing on keeping F-16 usage a secret? Seriously what do Indians eat or drink that makes them act so stupid? Your daddy Gafoora said that NO f-16s were used in striking Indian territory which was done by only JF and Mirages. Also US Airforce has its personnels in PAF airbases who monitor each and single F-16 move. For a change use some logic in your thought process!



> Lol-- you are joker arent you. World has never found Malaysian airliner which disappeared ! IAF took more than 60 days to find a full fledged dornier which crashed in Meghalayan jungles due to dense foliage. And you are talking about finding AIM's in Kashmir jungles
> - AIM's which self destructs at max ranges. Good luck finding those ! The one Amraam that was discovered was pure luck i guess. After all 5 of them were fired.


Have you realized that this statement goes against you?
Its hard to find airline planes yet within few hours of PAF air assault IAF found Amraam which it pulled from a Su-30 @ss. 


> Anyways even if they are found - what do you think will happen ? IAF achieved its objective - it proved to the world that they are seeing/witnessing an incompetent and a force which lies through their teeth. No wonder American diplomats call you guys a bunch big liars.


keep patting yourself in the back but at the end of the day NO NON-INDIAN defence community agree with Indian theories and even the one that you think will side with your lies turn up against you 
Like this lady who was invited by her salves 
And if a defeat had a face this video is the prime example of it

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## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Again, let me remind you that Pakistanis are more safer in China then Indians are safer in India.
> Meanwhile in India BJP government officials are promoting COW URINE.


Again it just means that you dont trust your government. Its ok - its expected. You guys have a history of leaving behind people. Rest of your post - where you think you are smart with your come back but its actually retarded.



> You are just resorting to running in circles with by spewing gibberish to prolong the discussion.
> Let me repeat this for you again...
> Its only Indian imagination to believe Pakistanis can not recognize a Pakistani who is wearing a pakistani flag and his name on his uniform and the language he speaks.
> Also did it ever come to your head that by now PAF pilot video would have been leaked by now by same people who were shouting "doosra banda" aka your jeejuuu g. let me guess your next move..... Pakistani army deleted those footage from every villagers phone.


Not my imgination; By the way - does your pilots wear name tag and flag during a mission ? I am just curious.Anyways you tell me - on why recordings are not there. Multiple evidences support the fact - doosra banda, villager proclaiming sikh pilot, radar intercepts, Comm intercepts, sightings by soldiers, etc, etc. Its not my domain - i am leading you to a realization that there are lot of loose ends at your side.



> Since my twitter profile is *banned *by Indiot admins on twitter and have *deleted *most of my posts


hahahahaa.....ok ..tu rehne de. Tujhse naa ho payega.



> (note since my account has been banned they also deleted pictures that i posted showing the panel matching with mig-21 fuselage.)  its so easy to beat even IAF fighter pilots.


Dude you are so full of s$%t...i see people like you all the time..will claim anything and when they are pressed, they will start quoting stories of how i was banned in twitter, my posts got deleted , i showed endians their place in f16 forum..the thing ..you did nothing ! The pilots that you are talking about - is not in your calibre (and neither mine..). You should leave to PAF professionals to dismiss them. Like i said - you are at a lower orbit.



> singular evidence?
> single seat Mig-21 has two parachutes, one belongs to pilot and one for ejection seat so which explains villagers misunderstanding with "dosra banda" who is now your jeejuu g.


Quoting random garbage about ejection seat having two chutes and yet conviniently ignoring everthing else..its called 'not understanding how to make argument'. Doosra banda , multiple parachutes, radar intercepts, village intercepts..all point to a second plane. So you can keep your parachute theory with yourself. So tell me - whats the color of C9 parachute ?



> The only evidence indiots can provide is some statements from villagers which has no factual meaning.


Had forgotten about this .. thanks for reminding. Yes one more pointer to the fact that two pilots were indeed captured.



> PAF does not produce MS paint propaganda photos, thats IAF trademark.
> PAF provides evidences like SOW footage which India failed to provide and 4 mig-21 missiles which were not even fired.


Like i said - you are not producing coz PAF is scared it will be called out. I mean look at this. IAF painted a complete aerial engagement picture in front of media with radar intercepts -- not a single peep from DGISPR. They will not respond - coz it will lead to another lie. By the way - can you give me serial #'s of both R73 please.



> From Day 1 India is a pathological liar because its in their culture to lie.


This is what i call - having no clue what you are talking about. Go back ..stand for 5 mins for your Kashmir and wait for the miracle to happen..lol. Did you happen to read breifs from American diplomats calling you two faced lying people. There are youtube videos - if reading is not your thing.



> Say it with me, MM Alam shot down 6 IAF superior Hunters with a Sabre.


Say it with me 'My national hero is lie' ..entire story was concoted. My own PAF pilots rubbished the 60 second stories - have you read that book ? You do know what i am talking about , dont you. Your argument and the way you write -- leads me to believe that you read only tweets. Ever wonder why Alam was discarded for 71 , was unceremoniusly pushed out and lead a life of recluse from their on..Read up.



> Either shut the fk up or provide with list of "different munitions" in IAF inventory that can be "mated" (btw really stupid term to use) with Spice-2000. IAF has only MK-84 which is 2,000lbs with almost 1,000 tnt.


Ohhh..what happened ? Did i puncture your bubble ? Your first statement- Spice only works with MK84 is a lie. Your second "But but...IAF only has MK84..you prove to me"..is a lie. Fact is you dont know. Your making a assertion , you prove. There is plenty of artciles which says Spice 2K works with different munitions which has different TNT. What IAF has and does not have is outside of your domain ? Do you even know what PAF has ? I doubt it. So point is - All gas and nothing.



> In which of post "failed" balakot strike did IAF or Indian military press conference had Q&A with media? The answer is NONE! *ISPR has Q&A session in almost every press conference.*


Are you saying DGISPR should not do its job ? Indian miltary does not have DGISPR kind of department (it has a rudimentary one..just for namesake). Baring aside - every other interaction, its a grilling that happens. The fraticide that happened was brought out by media - thats the level of grilling. And its good. Thats how it should be.



> Seriously why am i even debating with this stupid Indiot who has a comprehension level of a rat!
> 
> here is a excerpt from BS Dhanoa latest statement.
> 
> “We hit the target with five stand-off weapons. The ‘target hit’ information was delayed as *weapons for video recording the kill failed*, and the satellite pass at 8.30am could not pick up much due to clouds. The first confirmation came through synthetic aperture camera, showing penetration in the roof of Balakot buildings. We hit three buildings and left one deliberately. The weapon is designed in such a way that building survives but the occupants don’t,” he said.



Moron . do you even understand english ? Thank you posting above - IAF chief confirmed what i was saying. Here read again with English tense "The ‘target hit’ information was delayed as weapon (the extra 's' is here a journo mistake - you can make out with sentence contruction) for video recording the kill failed, and the satellite pass at 8.30am could not pick up much due to clouds"..He is basically saying the weapon for video recording failed. The weapon is Cristal Maze.

What grade school are you in ?

Second the confirmation of SAR images from friendly countries which was shown to Journos.

You are a joker, you know that. Dont you..dont cry. You destroyed your own argument - thats for IAF chief statements.



> Yah PAF was so scared of mighty IAF who lost Mig-21 Su-30 and mi-17 which due to PAF action IAF shot it down


Fraticide happened. We never denied. A court of inquiry was conducted and people were court martialled. We lost Mig 21. This is called transparency. Why did you dump your F16 doosra banda pilot ? Why did you have to close your airspace for 6 months ..what spooked you ? You can check the airline activity at our side- everything was as if - nothing happened.



> So without AMRAAM wreckage PAF was planing on keeping F-16 usage a secret? Seriously what do Indians eat or drink that makes them act so stupid?


Only after Amramm wreckage was displayed ..did Gafoora make the admission of usage of F16. Doesnt matter how you spin it. It started out "Operation swift retort did not have any F16'..to yes we did use F16. So lies on top of lies. So what is the next lie ? By the way - i am still waiting for Su 30 kill citation ? Which pilot got the award for Su 30 kill ?



> Your daddy Gafoora said that NO f-16s were used in striking Indian territory which was done by only JF and Mirages. Also *US Airforce has its personnels in PAF airbases* who monitor each and single F-16 move. For a change use some logic in your thought process!


Sure i understand you were a US slave that you have their personnel at bases. Chinese anyways are practically ruling your country..next would be turkey. Give this logic of having US personnel to someone else.



> Have you realized that this statement goes against you?
> Its hard to find airline planes yet within few hours of PAF air assault IAF found Amraam which it pulled from a Su-30 @ss.


No its not. 5 Amraam's fired - just got lucky we found one. By the way - it doesnt mean that IAF has not recovered wreckages of other Amraams. There is no point in showing , since the objective of proving PAF to be liars was achieved. The statement changed from we did not use F16's to we used F16's only in self defence..



> Like this lady who was invited by her salves


This lady is a nobody in defence community. Shes probably does not understand difference between aesa and pesa. But then its not surprising - you are colonial slave. So you look for validation in which anyone with white skin says something favorable for you. I am not - there's a reason why Indian CEO's are leading companies around world. We have come out of slave mentality.



> And if a defeat had a face this video is the prime example of it


No ! If defeat had a face then the below video is prime example


----------



## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228668174171693056





Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228668174171693056



Lol. 

A plane still on drawing board even after 35+ years. Wow. 

When was the first LCA planned to be inducted? 1992? Anyone?


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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Lol.
> 
> A plane still on drawing board even after 35+ years. Wow.
> 
> When was the first LCA planned to be inducted? 1992? Anyone?



There are blocks/marks/etc. no different to anyother. It's inducted and in production.


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## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> There are blocks/marks/etc. no different to anyother. It's inducted and in production.



Without FOC and 2,000 km away from the pakistani border???

Which block has been inducted and when? Is it even combat ready? Does it have an operational radar?

Can you provide one non indian source? ( a country India where even an airforce chief lies, nothing can be trusted coming out of it!)


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Without FOC and 2,000 km away from the pakistani border???
> 
> Which block has been inducted and when? Is it even combat ready? Does it have an operational radar?
> 
> Can you provide one non indian source? ( a country India where even an airforce chief lies, nothing can be trusted coming out of it!)




It has achieved FOC, the first FOC model is nearing flight. The next squadron is rumored to be in N. India.






Here's one in the production line.

The problem right now is HAL isnt producing them fast enough. It needs to ramp up production.

It has operated in the largest IAF exercise recently, it has done well. Still a while to go before pilots become totally used to it and to find all the pre production snags.

"We did trials and validation of operational efficiency of LCA Tejas. We were able to generate six sorties per platform per day. In this exercise, we had deployed eight platforms," said an IAF official who was associated with this exercise.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...xercise-gagan-shakti-2018-118042500089_1.html

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## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> It has achieved FOC, the first FOC model is nearing flight.



Stop twisting and live in present. 

The first FOC model is nearing flight!! The end. 

it has been 35+ years to date and there is not a single FOC squadron of LCA!!!

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## Khan vilatey

Are we still at it ............ I don’t understand this argument.

Buddy, went from this, that and the other all the way back to 71. Why don’t we all let him provide a certificate from the Russian government saying that all su-30 mki are accounted for.

KV


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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Stop twisting and live in present.
> 
> The first FOC model is nearing flight!! The end.
> 
> it has been 35+ years to date and there is not a single FOC squadron of LCA!!!



Did jf have foc at the beginning? Did it have refueling probe, etc? The first squad is already up and drilling. Took part in intensive air exercises. The FOC is done. The production models are rolling out. The end.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Again it just means that you dont trust your government. Its ok - its expected. You guys have a history of leaving behind people. Rest of your post - where you think you are smart with your come back but its actually retarded.


Its just a fact, Pakistanis are more safe in China then Indians are in India.
How many percentage of Pakistanis in China have died compared to Indians dying? exactly, so stfu



> Not my imgination; By the way - does your pilots wear name tag and flag during a mission ? I am just curious.Anyways you tell me














> - on why recordings are not there. Multiple evidences support the fact - doosra banda, villager proclaiming sikh pilot, radar intercepts, Comm intercepts, sightings by soldiers, etc, etc. Its not my domain - i am leading you to a realization that there are lot of loose ends at your side.


None of which are credible source of information but a source for Indian imagination and dismissed by entire independent military community around the world.



> Dude you are so full of s$%t...i see people like you all the time..will claim anything and when they are pressed, they will start quoting stories of how i was banned in twitter, my posts got deleted , i showed endians their place in f16 forum..


you are slowing dying of a painful reality check 


> the thing ..you did nothing ! The pilots that you are talking about - is not in your calibre (and neither mine..). You should leave to PAF professionals to dismiss them. Like i said - you are at a lower orbit.


The amount of knowledge these IAF idiot pilots on twitter possess can easily be refuted by anyone with access to google. I was able to shut this pilot piehole who kept insisting that the mig-21 rear fuselage panel belongs to F-16 tail hook section. This guy just like you was delusional but then with heavy dose of reality check he no longer imagine mig-21 wreckage as f-16 wreckage. 
I am glad this is the level of training and professionalism of IAF pilots.



> Quoting random garbage about ejection seat having two chutes and yet conviniently ignoring everthing else..



Its not random garbage. IAF mig-21 uses KM-1M ejection seat which has a parachute for pilot and one for the seat. 


> its called 'not understanding how to make argument'. Doosra banda , multiple parachutes, radar intercepts, village intercepts..all point to a second plane. So you can keep your parachute theory with yourself. So tell me - whats the color of C9 parachute ?


This is what i call "garbage" information that has been busted many times by me. 
All parachutes look like Indian flag.



> Had forgotten about this .. thanks for reminding. Yes one more pointer to the fact that two pilots were indeed captured.


Its only indian imagination to think Pakistanis will beat up its own pilot to death who is wearing pakistani flag and also speaks urdu, and then on top of that its military also fails to identify its own pilot and claim him as indian pilot. This is what happens when you consume cow urine as a holy drink, makes you imagine stuff. 


> Like i said - you are not producing coz PAF is scared it will be called out. I mean look at this. *IAF painted a complete aerial engagement picture* in front of media with radar intercepts -- not a single peep from DGISPR. They will not respond - coz it will lead to another lie. By the way - can you give me serial #'s of both R73 please.


 exactly, IAF painted one still aerial engagement picture on MS paint. 


> This is what i call - having no clue what you are talking about. Go back ..stand for 5 mins for your Kashmir and wait for the miracle to happen..lol. Did you happen to read breifs from American diplomats calling you two faced lying people. There are youtube videos - if reading is not your thing.


No body gives a fk about your imagination. 



> Say it with me 'My national hero is lie' ..entire story was concoted.


 you are absolutely right, abhi your national hero is a lie. 



> Ever wonder why Alam was discarded for 71 , was unceremoniusly pushed out and lead a life of recluse from their on..Read up.


Most of bangali origin pilots were not allowed to fly because of fear of their loyalty with India or Bangladesh. In fact one of bangali origin pilot tried to abduct a trainee pilot in a T-33 and fly away to india but at last minute before entering indian air space the trainee pilot was able to gain cautious and crash the plane to avoid being captured. 



> Ohhh..what happened ? Did i puncture your bubble ? Your first statement- Spice only works with MK84 is a lie. Your second "But but...IAF only has MK84..you prove to me"..is a lie. Fact is you dont know. Your making a assertion , you prove. There is plenty of artciles which says Spice 2K works with different munitions which has different TNT. What IAF has and does not have is outside of your domain ? Do you even know what PAF has ? I doubt it. So point is - All gas and nothing.



you are just making a fool out of yourself who claims India has multiple 2,000 lbs can can be fitted with spice-2000. All i have said mk-84 is the only one in IAF inventory that can be fitted with Spice-2000 kit. And then these retarded cow piss drinker indiots think TNT can be reduced in mk-84. 



> Are you saying DGISPR should not do its job ? Indian miltary does not have DGISPR kind of department (it has a rudimentary one..just for namesake). Baring aside - every other interaction, its a grilling that happens. The fraticide that happened was brought out by media - thats the level of grilling. And its good. Thats how it should be.



Come back to me when your pathological liar Indian sate sponsored propaganda factory media has the balls to question Indian military atrocities on Indian occupied kashmir! In pakistan after every operation against terrorists all media questions Pakistan military on why innocent people died. In India no one has the freedom of doing that. 
And let me also remind you, initially IAF and indian media was claiming mi-17 crashed due to mechanical fault and then later they tried to hide black box blaming it on kashmiris that they stole it and then later they admitted it was shot down by its own SAM. 



> Moron . do you even understand english ? Thank you posting above - IAF chief confirmed what i was saying. Here read again with English tense "The ‘target hit’ information was delayed as weapon (the extra 's' is here a journo mistake - you can make out with sentence contruction) for video recording the kill failed, and the satellite pass at 8.30am could not pick up much due to clouds"..He is basically saying the weapon for video recording failed. The weapon is Cristal Maze.
> Second the confirmation of SAR images from friendly countries which was shown to Journos.
> 
> You are a joker, you know that. Dont you..dont cry. You destroyed your own argument - thats for IAF chief statements.



Cristal maze is only used in your rear which gives you all that weird imagination and gives you pleasure just like when you ask your deedee how much she likes the dosra banda 
Only Spice-2000 were used by IAF and becuase it never hit any of the target IAF chief is blaming its incompetency on clouds 
Spice are all weather capable meaning it will work just as well as a fighter jet operating in cloudy day. 
Only in India they give new meaning to "all weather capable" with a caption saying "except for clouds"!
Indiots.


> What grade school are you in ?


Im a middle school drop out but i am glad I am able to make a fool out of Indian pilots 




> Fraticide happened. We never denied. A court of inquiry was conducted and people were court martialled. We lost Mig 21. This is called transparency. Why did you dump your F16 doosra banda pilot ? Why did you have to close your airspace for 6 months ..what spooked you ? You can check the airline activity at our side- everything was as if - nothing happened.






> Sure i understand you were a US slave that you have their personnel at bases. Chinese anyways are practically ruling your country..next would be turkey. Give this logic of having US personnel to someone else.


US is their to monitory PAF fair use of its technology and to prevent technology theft. 
Slave is what Christina fair made out of Indian air force officials 



> No its not. 5 Amraam's fired - just got lucky we found one. By the way - it doesnt mean that IAF has not recovered wreckages of other Amraams. There is no point in showing , since the objective of proving PAF to be liars was achieved. The statement changed from we did not use F16's to we used F16's only in self defence..


The AMRAAM was pulled out of Su-30 @ss 



> This lady is a nobody in defence community. Shes probably does not understand difference between aesa and pesa. But then its not surprising - you are colonial slave. So you look for validation in which anyone with white skin says something favorable for you. I am not - there's a reason why Indian CEO's are leading companies around world. We have come out of slave mentality.



And then your IAF slaves did not have the balls to even correct her because she chained them down like slaves. 



> No ! If defeat had a face then the below video is prime example



stop copying me. 

and honestly im getting tired of even arguing with you...
you won okay? IAF sot down F-16 with the 5th missile... happy??? now go have some more cow dung and cow urine as your daily diet.


----------



## anathema

Myth_buster_1 said:


> *Its just a fact*, Pakistanis are more safe in China then Indians are in India.
> How many percentage of Pakistanis in China have died compared to Indians dying? exactly, so stfu


Hows that fact ? Chalo its a fact - it just means that PAK doesnt care about its citizens. PAK students should become chinese citizens..lol, i have not seen more sad situation about country.



>



I asked a simple question - do your pilots wear badges/tags in operational scenario. The reason i am asking is - world over its very common to not have badges identifying your country or any other informaiton. So was curios- anyways its immaterial. 



> None of which are credible source of information but a source for Indian imagination and dismissed by *entire independent military community around the world*.


"on PDF" - there i completed the statement




> The amount of knowledge these IAF idiot pilots on twitter possess can easily be refuted by anyone* with access to google*. I was able to shut this pilot piehole who kept insisting that the mig-21 rear fuselage panel belongs to F-16 tail hook section. This guy just like you was delusional but then with heavy dose of reality check he no longer imagine mig-21 wreckage as f-16 wreckage.
> I am glad this is the level of training and professionalism of IAF pilots.


It tells a lot about you - if you rely on google to debate with professional. Cheers man - you should now get into PAF as an aerospace engineer.




> This is what i call "garbage" information that has been busted many times by me.
> All parachutes look like Indian flag.


So it wont be surprising that villagers would beat up a pilot because of indian flag parachute. Poor F16 pilot.



> Its only indian imagination to think P*akistanis will beat up its own pilot to death* who is wearing pakistani flag and also speaks urdu, and then on top of that its military also fails to identify its own pilot and claim him as indian pilot.


Hasnt happened for the first time in the world. A pilot coming down in a Indian looking parachute - lol , people will believe that he is a pakistani. Hell even Indian villagers might bash him up.



> This is what happens *when you consume cow urine as a holy drink, makes you imagine stuff*.


Looks like you have experience with it since you clearly know the end result. I dont .



> exactly, IAF painted one still aerial engagement picture on MS paint.


Waiting for PAF aerial picture. Wait it doesnt want to do - since it lost F16.





> you are just making a fool out of yourself who claims India has multiple 2,000 lbs can can be fitted with spice-2000. All i have said *mk-84 is the only one in IAF inventory* that can be fitted with Spice-2000 kit. And then these retarded cow piss drinker indiots think TNT can be reduced in mk-84.


You are in position of authority to make that assertion. You are keyboard commando - who thinks he has dealt with professional pilot.



> Come back to me when your pathological liar Indian sate sponsored propaganda factory media has the balls to question Indian military atrocities on Indian occupied kashmir! *In pakistan after every operation against terrorists all media questions Pakistan military on why innocent people died*. In India no one has the freedom of doing that.
> And let me also remind you, initially IAF and indian media was claiming mi-17 crashed due to mechanical fault and then later they tried to hide black box blaming it on kashmiris that they stole it and then later they admitted it was shot down by its own SAM.


Hahahahahahaha...question Pakistan military. Boy - Pakistani military has the country - they are the country. If you dont see it , then what do you see. With regards Mi17 , yes the news reports started out Mechanical fault , but quickly changed to 'We shot down our own Mi17' - nothing to hide.



> Cristal maze is only used in your rear which gives you all that weird imagination and gives you pleasure just like when you ask your deedee how much she likes the dosra banda


You quoted IAF chief- he clearly said 'Weapon providing video image failed'. lol - you got screwed with your own quote.



> Only Spice-2000 were used by IAF and becuase it never hit any of the target IAF chief is blaming its incompetency on clouds


Clouds was about SAT images - we requested SAR images from Israel who provided us.



> Spice are all weather capable meaning it will work just as well as a fighter jet operating in cloudy day.
> Only in India they give new meaning to "all weather capable" with a caption saying "except for clouds"!
> Indiots.


Cloudy day has nothing to do with SPICE - but then looks like you cannot comprehend english.



> Im a* middle school drop out *but i am glad I am able to make a fool out of Indian pilots


Middle school - i doubt it !



> US is their to monitory PAF fair use of its technology and to prevent technology theft.
> Slave is what Christina fair made out of Indian air force officials


Cristina - who ? You may be infatuated with the stuff that you are taking. Shes a nodbody to me. But you clearly have a colonial hangover.



> The AMRAAM was pulled out of Su-30* @ss *


I see - a school dropout and apparently not straight ! Nothing wrong with that.



> and honestly im getting tired of even arguing with you...
> you won okay? IAF sot down F-16 with the 5th missile... happy??? now go have some more cow dung and cow urine as your daily diet.


I am interested in truth - till then cheers.


----------



## Khan vilatey

Water Car Engineer said:


> It has achieved FOC, the first FOC model is nearing flight. The next squadron is rumored to be in N. India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's one in the production line.
> 
> The problem right now is HAL isnt producing them fast enough. It needs to ramp up production.
> 
> It has operated in the largest IAF exercise recently, it has done well. Still a while to go before pilots become totally used to it and to find all the pre production snags.
> 
> "We did trials and validation of operational efficiency of LCA Tejas. We were able to generate six sorties per platform per day. In this exercise, we had deployed eight platforms," said an IAF official who was associated with this exercise.
> 
> https://www.business-standard.com/a...xercise-gagan-shakti-2018-118042500089_1.html



I think at some point Tejas will join the IAF but not in numbers it will go the same route as *India’s first fighter jet the HF-24 Marut, yes India had a jet before the Tejas *but with the same problems. It was underpowered and not mission capable.

At the time India had thousands of aircrafts and only inducted 147 units. This off course was a failure as a fighter aircraft.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut


India unfortunately is a business minded country and fighters are really not good business sense in the short term. Pakistan being a security state with a militaristic narrative (some perceived some real) has a better developed defence industry.

Happy to discuss further 

KV


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Khan vilatey said:


> I think at some point Tejas will join the IAF but not in numbers it will go the same route as *India’s first fighter jet the HF-24 Marut, yes India had a jet before the Tejas *but with the same problems. It was underpowered and not mission capable.
> 
> At the time India had thousands of aircrafts and only inducted 147 units. This off course was a failure as a fighter aircraft.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut
> 
> 
> India unfortunately is a business minded country and fighters are really not good business sense in the short term. Pakistan being a security state with a militaristic narrative (some perceived some real) has a better developed defence industry.
> 
> Happy to discuss further
> 
> KV




The Marut was underpowered, but that wasnt the main problem. The main problem is that India didnt keep developing on the platform. There were several proposal programs after Marut, even one model with good engine. India itself discarded them and bought Jaguar and Mig21s killing the program.

With Tejas this isnt the case. The further developed models are being worked and sponsored. Not to mention the industry is much more developed.

Tejas does make business sense too. There are several private sector companies eatting off this and future program. Major modules like wings, tail, canopy, fuselage are coming from big firms like the TATAs to new ones like VEM tech.

Even underdeveloped subsystems, LRUs, etc. are coming from them. There is an ecosystem building around Tejas.







Pakistan doesnt have a better developed defence industry.


----------



## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> Did jf have foc at the beginning? Did it have refueling probe, etc? The first squad is already up and drilling. Took part in intensive air exercises. The FOC is done. The production models are rolling out. The end.



Basically you are admitting that even after 35+ years, LCA is at the beginning phase with first FOC model not even off the line.

Also Note that if first FOC model is to be rolled out soon, the previous ones are not FOC. It is called Common sense. The end.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Khan vilatey

Water Car Engineer said:


> The Marut was underpowered, but that wasnt the main problem. The main problem is that India didnt keep developing on the platform. There were several proposal programs after Marut, even one model with good engine. India itself discarded them and bought Jaguar and Mig21s killing the program.
> 
> With Tejas this isnt the case. The further developed models are being worked and sponsored. Not to mention the industry is much more developed.
> 
> Tejas does make business sense too. There are several private sector companies eatting off this and future program. Major modules like wings, tail, canopy, fuselage are coming from big firms like the TATAs to new ones like VEM tech.
> 
> Even underdeveloped subsystems, LRUs, etc. are coming from them. There is an ecosystem building around Tejas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan doesnt have a better developed defence industry.




See the MRCA will kill the mk1 and beyond as the capability gap is too large and too much time has passed. As long as India continues to import defence equipment they will lag behind.

Pakistan has a more effective defence industry beaches of two major reasons

1) the end user and manufacturer are very close 

2) as we pakistani’s are bhooqay nagaey we take our product live with its weaknesses and improve it over time. As we Just don’t have the money for luxuries. 

For example al Khalid is a rip of type 90 tank, we took it improved its inefficiencies, put better armor on it, French targeting and ballistic system and a Ukrainian engine. Making it the best tank Pakistan had Back then and evenly matching and actually surpassing the Indian t-72s. For the better stuff we bought the Ukrainian t-80 ud a proven heavy tank. 

We realizes our issues with al Khalid and we are improving it with vt4 , again the only weakness it has I.e. of not having third generation thermal sights for gunner and commander will be resolved in the Pakistani version or should I say alkahalid 2 

Kv


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Basically you are admitting that even after 35+ years, LCA is at the beginning phase with first FOC model not even off the line.
> 
> Also Note that if first FOC model is to be rolled out soon, the previous ones are not FOC. It is called Common sense. The end.



Did your own JF have FOC or even some of the certifications FOC Tejas FOC has? Why does it matter? Tejas is operational, is in production for the user, and the FOC models are rolling out right now. 35 years is the founding of ADA the only defence aerospace R&D wing of DRDO. LCA was nothing but a paper plane then, no different to your AZM now. You just have an idea, but have nothing on the ground to produce it. Full sanction happened in the 90s.



Khan vilatey said:


> Pakistan has a more effective defence industry beaches of two major reasons
> 
> 
> Kv




It just doesnt. What you did with AK is no different to India has done forever. It does the same with T90s and MKI, etc. and it rolls them out faster in greater quantity. Yeah, it takes an outside platform and puts French, Indian, etc. subsystems and materials. Actually managing a project, certifying the design, and putting that design into production is a whole different ball game.

Pakistan isnt close to India in naval construction(surface, subsurface), radar development, artillery systems, EW systems, Missile development, etc, etc. The gap keeps getting wider.


----------



## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> Did your own JF have FOC or even some of the certifications FOC Tejas FOC has? Why does it matter? Tejas is operational, is in production for the user, and the FOC models are rolling out right now. 35 years is the founding of ADA the only defence aerospace R&D wing of DRDO. LCA was nothing but a paper plane then, no different to your AZM now. You just have an idea, but have nothing on the ground to produce it. Full sanction happened in the 90s.



There is not a single FOC squadron of LCA out there. The end. 

Talk is cheap. Provide a link to counter.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> There is not a single FOC squadron of LCA out there. The end.
> 
> Talk is cheap. Provide a link to counter.



First you didnt even know FOC certification was done. Now you ask for a sqd. You asked a stupid question like does it have an active radar. No, there isnt a sqd out yet, it's in the production line. All the modules are being funneled in from various private sector players as we speak. It's happening, get over it. You own bird, did it have FOC out of the production line? Did it even have a refueling probe, like which FOC Tejas demands?


----------



## Khan vilatey

Water Car Engineer said:


> Did your own JF have FOC or even some of the certifications FOC Tejas FOC has? Why does it matter? Tejas is operational, is in production, and the FOC models are rolling out right now. 35 years is the founding of ADA the only defence aerospace R&D wing of DRDO. LCA was nothing but a paper plane then, no difference to your AZM now. Full sanction happened in the 90s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just doesnt. What you did with AK is no different to India has done forever. It does the same with T90s and MKI, etc. and it rolls them out faster in greater quantity. Yeah, it takes an outside platform and puts French, Indian, etc. subsystems and materials.
> 
> Pakistan isnt close to India in naval construction(surface, subsurface), radar development, artillery systems, EW systems, Missile development, etc, etc. The gap keeps getting wider.



yes but we achieved this while we are Bhookey nagay............what’s your excuse. I truly believe Allah is behind this country. There truly is no explanation .

As a Muslim I believe (I paraphrase) that those against us will plan and Allah also plan and he is the best planner.

I leave you with this Indian defence analysis who is as perplexed as I











kv

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## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> First you didnt even know FOC certification was done. Now you ask for a sqd. You asked a stupid question like does it have an active radar. No, there isnt a sqd out yet, it's in the production line. All the modules are being funneled in from various private sector players as we speak. It's happening, get over it. You own bird, did it have FOC out of the production line? Did it even have a refueling probe, like which FOC Tejas demands?



Your Indian English has comprehension issues.

Finally you admit after going in circles that even after 35+ years there is not even a single FOC LCA squadron out there.!!

The end.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Khan vilatey said:


> yes but we achieved this while we are Bhookey nagay............what’s your excuse. I truly believe Allah is behind this country. There truly is no explanation .
> 
> As a Muslim I believe (I paraphrase) that those against us will plan and Allah also plan and he is the best planner.
> 
> I leave you with this Indian defence analysis who is as perplexed as me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kv



I am glad you have confidence in your country. I dont think Pakistan is a walk over, or do I underestimate it. But India's defence industry is better than Pakistans. That's not saying much, because both are lack luster anyway.

But India's defence industry is making several gains recently. More programs are being green lighted, developmental cycles are getting smaller, growing private sector in Indian defence, more production, testing ecosystem coming up.

But it still suffers from corruption from generals and official, mixing defence deals with geopolitics, with each switch of political party or MoD their ideas keep shifting, etc.



Aliph Ahmed said:


> Your Indian English has comprehension issues.
> 
> Finally you admit after going in circles that even after 35+ years there is not even a single FOC LCA squadron out there.!!
> 
> The end.



No, you said if FOC is done, certification process is done. Have you in Pakistan even done any certification of any design? No, China does all that for you. The FOC models are rolling out, but that doesnt discount the previous models. They are still sqd of them, still operated by the user, still doing require sorties. Did your own JF have FOC certification in the beginning, or did even have some of the FOC requirements FOC Tejas has? No, so why does it matter so much to you?

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## Khan vilatey

Water Car Engineer said:


> I am glad you have confidence in your country. I dont think Pakistan is a walk over, or do I underestimate it. But India's defence industry is better than Pakistans. That's not saying much, because both are lack luster anyway.
> 
> But India's defence industry is making several gains recently. More programs are being green lighted, developmental cycles are getting smaller, growing private sector in Indian defence, more production, testing ecosystem coming up.
> 
> But it still suffers from corruption from generals and official, mixing defence deals with geopolitics, with each switch of political party or MoD their ideas keep shifting, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you said if FOC is done, certification process is done. Have you in Pakistan even done any certification of any design? No, China does all that for you. The FOC models are rolling out, but that doesnt discount the previous models. They are still sqd of them, still operated by the user, still doing require sorties. Did your own JF have FOC certification in the beginning, or did even have some of the FOC requirements FOC Tejas had? No, so why does it matter so much to you?




Agree to disagree my friend lol 

kv

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## Aliph Ahmed

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Your Indian English has comprehension issues.
> 
> Finally you admit after going in circles that even after 35+ years there is not even a single FOC LCA squadron out there.!!
> 
> The end.



By the way, Pakistan would rather have you LCAs.


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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> By the way, Pakistan would rather have you LCAs.



India would rather you have JFs too. Unlike JF, LCA is the lowest tier of the airwing.


----------



## THE SEEKER

Water Car Engineer said:


> India would rather you have JFs too. Unlike JF, LCA is the lowest tier of the airwing.



Dude the only thing that is stopping Pakistan is our economy . back to discussion and trolling aside when do you guys planning to put your indigenous engines in you home grown fighter jets . as per all the posts buy your own country men you guys still not able to sort out developing your own engines.

Yes I agree that developing an engine is no easy task , what surprises me is on one hand you guys send rockets to Mars and on the other hand you don't even have test beds to test your engines and every time you have to go to Russia what is that missing part


----------



## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> India would rather you have JFs too. Unlike JF, LCA is the lowest tier of the airwing.



For, that, you need an operational foc squadron of LCAs. Lollllll

India dont even have one squadron of FOC lca as of now even after 35+ years...lollllll

And spare me the WIllsss.


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## Water Car Engineer

THE SEEKER said:


> Dude the only thing that is stopping Pakistan is our economy . back to discussion and trolling aside when do you guys planning to put your indigenous engines in you home grown fighter jets . as per all the posts buy your own country men you guys still not able to sort out developing your own engines.
> 
> Yes I agree that developing an engine is no easy task , what surprises me is on one hand you guys send rockets to Mars and on the other hand you don't even have test beds to test your engines and every time you have to go to Russia what is that missing part



I understand it's your economy. But from India's perspective the status quo is a good thing.

They have plans to make two engine types. They better expect to spend billions and get foreign consultants for it to be viable. Otherwise, if the funds arent there they are wasting time.



Aliph Ahmed said:


> For, that, you need an operational foc squadron of LCAs. Lollllll
> 
> India dont even have one squadron of FOC lca as of now even after 35+ years...lollllll
> 
> And spare me the WIllsss.




You didnt even know FOC was completed, now you have to move on to the next thing. It's in production, wait on it. That's all that I can tell you.


----------



## THE SEEKER

Aliph Ahmed said:


> For, that, you need an operational foc squadron of LCAs. Lollllll
> 
> India dont even have one squadron of FOC lca as of now even after 35+ years...lollllll
> 
> And spare me the WIllsss.



I am just questioning them about their stupidity. in-spite of all the money, resources and all , I wonder why they are so stupid enough to not even bothered to develop a proper eco system to develop and test their engines and they bash on JF17 seriously.


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## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> Hows that fact ? Chalo its a fact - it just means that PAK doesnt care about its citizens. PAK students should become chinese citizens..lol, i have not seen more sad situation about country.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked a simple question - do your pilots wear badges/tags in operational scenario. The reason i am asking is - world over its very common to not have badges identifying your country or any other informaiton. So was curios- anyways its immaterial.
> 
> 
> "on PDF" - there i completed the statement
> 
> 
> 
> It tells a lot about you - if you rely on google to debate with professional. Cheers man - you should now get into PAF as an aerospace engineer.
> 
> 
> 
> So it wont be surprising that villagers would beat up a pilot because of indian flag parachute. Poor F16 pilot.
> 
> 
> Hasnt happened for the first time in the world. A pilot coming down in a Indian looking parachute - lol , people will believe that he is a pakistani. Hell even Indian villagers might bash him up.
> 
> 
> Looks like you have experience with it since you clearly know the end result. I dont .
> 
> 
> Waiting for PAF aerial picture. Wait it doesnt want to do - since it lost F16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are in position of authority to make that assertion. You are keyboard commando - who thinks he has dealt with professional pilot.
> 
> 
> Hahahahahahaha...question Pakistan military. Boy - Pakistani military has the country - they are the country. If you dont see it , then what do you see. With regards Mi17 , yes the news reports started out Mechanical fault , but quickly changed to 'We shot down our own Mi17' - nothing to hide.
> 
> 
> You quoted IAF chief- he clearly said 'Weapon providing video image failed'. lol - you got screwed with your own quote.
> 
> 
> Clouds was about SAT images - we requested SAR images from Israel who provided us.
> 
> 
> Cloudy day has nothing to do with SPICE - but then looks like you cannot comprehend english.
> 
> 
> Middle school - i doubt it !
> 
> 
> Cristina - who ? You may be infatuated with the stuff that you are taking. Shes a nodbody to me. But you clearly have a colonial hangover.
> 
> 
> I see - a school dropout and apparently not straight ! Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> I am interested in truth - till then cheers.



You are just repeating same old bull sh1t which has already been proven to be bull Sh1t and you will run out of air in about 3 days when your nation receives big dosage of reality check.


----------



## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> I understand it's your economy. But from India's perspective the status quo is a good thing.
> 
> They have plans to make two engine types. They better expect to spend billions and get foreign consultants for it to be viable. Otherwise, if the funds arent there they are wasting time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didnt even know FOC was completed, now you have to move on to the next thing. It's in production, wait on it. That's all that I can tell you.



Been waiting for the past 20 years. So far. Not even one single squadron of FOC lca inducted even after 35+ years :

it will fly, it will be inducted in numbers. it will fire this weapon and that weapon. It will do this and it will do that and for that some drawings are proof. Lollll

No indian wants to live in present where the fact remains that even after 35 +, no FOC Lca has been inducted to date. Lollllll



Myth_buster_1 said:


> You are just repeating same old bull sh1t which has already been proven to be bull Sh1t and you will run out of air in about 3 days when your nation receives big dosage of reality check.



That is what an indian does: broaden the topic when they cant defend their own product. It is part of their mentality. They physchic. They try to take you down in a group but once it is one on one, they will. Look for exits and forcefully introduce events, equipment that have nothing to do with the topic!

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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Been waiting for the past 20 years. So far. Not even one single squadron of FOC lca inducted even after 35+ years :
> 
> it will fly, it will be inducted in numbers. it will fire this weapon and that weapon. It will do this and it will do that and for that some drawings are proof. Lollll
> 
> No indian wants to live in present where the fact remains that even after 35 +, no FOC Lca has been inducted to date. Lollllll



No, you didnt even know FOC was achieved, didnt even know that it had an operational radar. Now you have to switch to FOC sqd, again wait on it, it's in the production line. This isnt a drawing, but actual models on the line.







Wait on them to come out the line. That's all that can be said.


And again, did your JF have FOC in the beginning, did it even have some of the features demanded for FOC Tejas? No, so why do a sqd of FOC Tejas matter, when there is a sqd of IOC operational models in the hand of the users?


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## THE SEEKER

Water Car Engineer said:


> No, you didnt even know FOC was achieved, didnt even know that it had an operational radar. Now you have to switch to FOC sqd, again wait on it, it's in the production line. This isnt a drawing, but actual models on the line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait on them to come out the line. That's all that can be said.
> 
> 
> And again, did your JF have FOC in the beginning, did it even have some of the features demanded for FOC Tejas? No, so why do a sqd of FOC Tejas matter, when there is a sqd of IOC operational models in the hand of the users?



hey water car , LCA is purely in its current state is best suited for defensive role only . Reason being it is a Mig 21 replacement . how can you summarize MoD/Military industrial complex can fill the gap if you want to design an offensive fighter . reason for this question is you guys are too repetitive with the word make in ind , indigenization etal . the thing is the engine is still American. yes you got the sub systems developed and they are made in India , but most critical element is still imported . even for AMCA you guys are looking for imported engines. there is no clear goals as far as I can see. so is made in india a hog wash by modi to appease people for votes


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## Aliph Ahmed

Water Car Engineer said:


> Wait on them to come out the line. That's all that can be said.



That is what the Indians have been saying for the last 35+ years:

"Wait on them, they are almost ready and will have this and that and they will fire this and that" 

Still the same and still havent managed to deploy a fully FOC squadron of LCA to date.

Also, considering the track record of HAL, there is a high probability that this pic of a plane on production line will neither be completed on time nor will it will roll out without its share of snags and issues!

As i have always maintained. A flawed design can only go so far!!

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## Aliph Ahmed

Where are the workers working on this downsynderomed version of mirage
Plane? 

No wonder the first FOC plane is still on production line despite getting the go ahead order on January 2019 !!! One year has gone by and not even one (1) plane rolled out?? 

Keep it up India. Well done!!!


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## Water Car Engineer

Aliph Ahmed said:


> That is what the Indians have been saying for the last 35+ years:
> 
> "Wait on them, they are almost ready and will have this and that and they will fire this and that"
> 
> Still the same and still havent managed to deploy a fully FOC squadron of LCA to date.
> 
> Also, considering the track record of HAL, there is a high probability that this pic of a plane on production line will neither be completed on time nor will it will roll out without its share of snags and issues!
> 
> As i have always maintained. A flawed design can only go so far!!



Wait on it. It is on the production line, no different to the IOC sqd was in it.

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## CONNAN

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Where are the workers working on this downsynderomed version of mirage
> Plane?
> 
> No wonder the first FOC plane is still on production line despite getting the go ahead order on January 2019 !!! One year has gone by and not even one (1) plane rolled out??
> 
> Keep it up India. Well done!!!


No. 45 Squadron IAF from 1 July 2016
Final Operational Clearance (FOC) was attained by ADA on 20 February 2019, and production activities of FOC configuration have commenced at HAL.
https://indusdictum.com/2019/12/03/...-tejas-tejas-mk2-in-the-pipeline-mos-defence/


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## Aliph Ahmed

And yes despite your own article about work commencing in February 2019 ( 370 days and counting) , HAL has not delivered even one (1) air craft?






Not a single person is working?

How long are the day shifts at HAL - 2 - 4 hours?

If it is anything more than 6 hours shift per day then everyone at HAL working on LCA is just absurdly incompetent!

Any new time line given by HAL when the FOC Squadron WILLLLLL be delivered and it WILLLLLL fly and it WILLLL carry this and that weapon and it WILLLLL fire this and thst weapon and it WILLLLL do this and that both in air and also under water????


----------



## CONNAN

Aliph Ahmed said:


> And yes despite your own article about work commencing in February 2019 ( 370 days and counting) , HAL has not delivered even one (1) air craft?
> 
> View attachment 609300
> 
> 
> Not a single person is working?
> 
> How long are the day shifts at HAL - 2 - 4 hours?
> 
> If it is anything more than 6 hours shift per day then everyone at HAL working on LCA is just absurdly incompetent!
> 
> Any new time line given by HAL when the FOC Squadron WILLLLLL be delivered and it WILLLLLL fly and it WILLLL carry this and that weapon and it WILLLLL fire this and thst weapon and it WILLLLL do this and that both in air and also under water????



unfortunately they have only 4 getting ready on the production floor which will be delivered by June 2020

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## Aliph Ahmed

CONNAN said:


> unfortunately they have only 4 getting ready on the production floor which will be delivered by June 2020



I see. So even in 2020, they will not add any new squadron other than the initial 16 ioc prototypes which were given foc and another 4 foc planes on production line to be completed in June 2020 (no guarantee based on the past record) totalling 20 lca!!

Is there a reason why HAL is so slow? Is it because they are having hard time sourcing the parts domestically or is it their lack of planning in obtaining parts from internationally or is it because of some other reason? - it has been 35+ years. They should have get their act together by now.

Did they not document the production process in detail for the previous 16 planes? They are producing 4 planes in 1 and half years (if they meet june 2020 timeline) but boasts that they can produce upto 16 and even more per year? 

There is more than just something that is simply not right with LCA!!


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## CONNAN

Aliph Ahmed said:


> I see. So even in 2020, they will not add any new squadron other than the initial 16 ioc prototypes which were given foc and another 4 foc planes on production line to be completed in June 2020 (no guarantee based on the past record) totalling 20 lca!!
> 
> Is there a reason why HAL is so slow? Is it because they are having hard time sourcing the parts domestically or is it their lack of planning in obtaining parts from internationally or is it because of some other reason? - it has been 35+ years. They should have get their act together by now.



there is no issue with parts or equipment , the biggest enemy of India is its Defence PSU like HAL, OFB etal.
also these PSU's had misused its defence offsets policy, which was introduced to encourage domestic manufacturing.

the main reason is lazy and carelessness when they get into MoU's these govt employed morons hardly read th terms and conditions to put it in a simple tone

L&T delivered K9 ahead of their deadline if that was given to OFB or any other PSU you will not even see them on production line

Trust me Indian Defence PSU's are Pakistan biggest assets, all you guy's from the other side of the border have to do is watch them rot without any innovation . because we are our own worst enemy

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## Water Car Engineer

First FOC tejas is out

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## CONNAN

In above pic is the-soon-to-fly Tejas SP-21, the first Final Operational Clearance (FOC) varian
from HAL. Photo: Onmanorama below link also confirms in the interviewthat MK1a deal will be done by end of this financial year.

Read more at: https://english.manoramaonline.com/...rzrSIQMq2x5mzyw2rWqTA5CQJxHcvg&akamai-feo=off


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## CONNAN

SP 21 FOC version video is from SEP 2019 just for summary






IOC Version 1st LCA/tejas squadron vid from Jan 25, 2018


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## marcos98

This video deserves more views.


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## halupridol

2018 video,,,,still valid
LAMBA CHUTIYA AIRCRAFT


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## halupridol

The whole discuussion about fake indegenization,,,arjun,tejas.

Had a candid conversation with a HAL engineer,,,,according to him the 2018 report about tejas being 60% indigenous by value,is fake n concocted,,,,prices of indian components were inflated drastically just to show how indiagenious tejas is.


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## Deino

Water Car Engineer said:


> First FOC tejas is out





Any news concerning SP-21?


----------



## halupridol

All must be phorenmaal agents maligning grt dpsu


----------



## swnjo

halupridol said:


> All must be phorenmaal agents maligning grt dpsu


Kela.


----------



## CONNAN

*Wait for FOC LCA-Tejas Gets longer*

IAF’s will have to wait little longer after First Four Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration LCA-Tejas aircraft which was scheduled to be delivered by HAL by end of March this month is likely to miss its target schedule due to last-minute changes and upgrades carried out on the first four LCA-Tejas to come out in FOC Configuration. First FOC configured SP-21 carried out its Ground engine run, way back in November and it was decided it will get its crucial software upgrade from its partner Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA) to allow integration and firing of newer weapons along with the ability to handle the better rate of climb with better communication systems. 

while HAL is still tight lipped about why SP-21 is yet to fly but sources close to idrw.org have informed that due to teething issues with some of the FOC equipment integrated for the first time and due to minor software related issues both SP-21 and SP-22 are held up as a precaution from carrying out it first flight, while SP-23 is almost ready and work on SP-24 is already at advance stage of completion, *HAL is trying to get at least SP-21 and SP-22 airborne by end of March and SP-23 and Sp-24 in next two months so that expected commissioning of second squadrons of LCA-Tejas Mk1 in IAF happens by end of June or in July with four aircraft. what was supposed to be quick last-minute component swap and software upgrade has become a bottleneck in delivery of first FOC configured LCA-Tejas what that is holding back both the aircraft.*

HAL is maintaining that production of SP-25 to SP-31 is progressing well and has maintained that for FY-2020-21 it will deliver another 8 LCA-Tejas Mk1 above Four FOC LCA-Tejas it had promised to deliver by end of FY-2019-20. Last LCA-Tejas Mk1 in IOC-II configuration to come out of HAL Production line ironically was SP-16 (LA-5016 ) which had completed its maiden flight after taking off from HAL Airport in Bangalore on 12-March-2019 which is almost a year back, since then HAL started preparing for manufacturing of FOC configured LCA-Tejas which starts from SP-21 onwards. 

Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria already has confirmed that the first LCA-Tejas No. 45 Squadron ” Flying Daggers ” based at Air Force Station Sulur will move out to a forward airbase in the western sector close to Pakistan by end of this year and second LCA-Tejas Squadron will soon be established by mid of this year once first four aircraft are delivered by HAL at Air Force Station Sulur. Sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that the second squadron will move out of Sulur by end of 2021 to a forward base in Jammu and Kashmir.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/wait-for-foc-lca-tejas-gets-longer/#more-222668 .


----------



## CONNAN

postponed to Tuesday fingers crossed


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## KapitaanAli

Tejas SP21 (FOC):






Video:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1239824264410198020/pu/vid/848x480/vHI1ZIOHmveRyl5W.mp4

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239837719343149057

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## HRK

PakShaheen79 said:


> Achieved its political objectives


It help Modi to win elections ..... what more political achievement you want ....???

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## Shah_Deu

Water Car Engineer said:


> First FOC tejas is out



Never seen such a wierdly placed refuelling probe. Not to mention the distraction in field of view for the pilot! Bang in the face!

*Just imagine the pilot trying to concentrate on the HUD with the probe sticking out as cross hairs in the background!  *

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## JohnWick

Shah_Deu said:


> Never seen such a wierdly placed refuelling probe. Not to mention the distraction in field of view for the pilot! Bang in the face!
> 
> *Just imagine the pilot trying to concentrate on the HUD with the probe sticking out as cross hairs in the background!  *
> 
> View attachment 614582
> 
> 
> View attachment 614585
> 
> 
> View attachment 614586


The refueling probe is looking like a tumor on this jet.

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## KapitaanAli

Check the probe of Mirage 2k.

LCA was earlier tested with a starboard probe. Later it was moved to the front. I agree it's a weird look, but it's one of the reasons why it's a pleasure to refuel this aircraft in air. As for visual obstruction, it's exaggerated. Viewing from top, you'll realise that the pilot sits further back than you'd expect from most photos.

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## Shah_Deu

KapitaanAli said:


> Check the probe of Mirage 2k.
> 
> LCA was earlier tested with a starboard probe. Later it was moved to the front. I agree it's a weird look, but it's one of the reasons why it's a pleasure to refuel this aircraft in air. As for visual obstruction, it's exaggerated. Viewing from top, you'll realise that the pilot sits further back than you'd expect from most photos.


Yeah, its almost the same position. They designers might have carried over the whole refuelling system internal piping layout from the Mirage 2000 with minor modifications to save time. The probe itself might have been outsourced to the same french supplier as well!


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## anathema

Shah_Deu said:


> Yeah, its almost the same position. They designers might have carried over the whole refuelling system internal piping layout from the Mirage 2000 with minor modifications to save time.


No - i suspect that. we never had internal layout of M2000. It was not a ToT deal. French jets are pretty much closed for us. The recent upgrade that was performed was more for avionics rather than anything else.
With regards to it being an eye sore ! No its not. After a couple of flights - its as if it doesnt exist. Pilot gets used to it. 


> The probe itself might have been outsourced to the same french supplier as well!


Its from Cobham. Its UK based.


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## Haris Ali2140

anathema said:


> No - i suspect that. we never had internal layout of M2000. It was not a ToT deal. French jets are pretty much closed for us. The recent upgrade that was performed was more for avionics rather than anything else.
> With regards to it being an eye sore ! No its not. After a couple of flights - its as if it doesnt exist. Pilot gets used to it.
> 
> Its from Cobham. Its UK based.


What does SP-21 means???


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## rockstarIN

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What does SP-21 means???



There are 40 Tejas ordered by IAF. first 20 as IOC configuration and balance 20 as FOC configuration and later IOCs will be modified to FOC.

First 20 IOC jets termed as SP-1 to 20, this is the FOC first one from next 20 lot, hence SP-21.

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## anathema

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What does SP-21 means???



Serial Production ##

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## PakShaheen79

anathema said:


> Serial Production ##


That's odd because if an aircraft hasn't achieved FOC status, why it is being numbered as SP. Serial Production begins when design is frozen from both hardware and software point of view.


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## JohnWick

PakShaheen79 said:


> That's odd because if an aircraft hasn't achieved FOC status, why it is being numbered as SP. Serial Production begins when design is frozen from both hardware and software point of view.


The design is frozen for 40 years.

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## KapitaanAli

PakShaheen79 said:


> That's odd because if an aircraft hasn't achieved FOC status, why it is being numbered as SP. Serial Production begins when design is frozen from both hardware and software point of view.


That is not what FOC means and it is not black and white. USAF F35 are yet to achieve FOC. F35 of other countries soon to be delivered may take until 2040 to get FOC.

Some countries, out of desperation, don't bother to make such distinctions.

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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> That is not what FOC means and it is not black and white. USAF F35 are yet to achieve FOC. F35 of other countries soon to be delivered may take until 2040 to get FOC.
> 
> Some countries, out of desperation, don't bother to make such distinctions.


What is FOC???
@dbc


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## KapitaanAli

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is FOC???


FOC considers everything including the logistics. This is why Tejas FOC was declared last year. It is not to do with this exact SP21 that flew today. We call it FOC config because of the few modifications, but IOC config can do everything this one can, except aerial refuelling.

Certain manoeuvres are pulled by the old LSP aircrafts, which newer IOC aircrafts don't. These are mostly because of formalities and the restrictions enforced by the air force on the inducted airframes. FOC removes these restrictions and expands the envelopes. SP21 reportedly pulled 8G in its maiden flight.

So in LCA's case, it's a combination of slight modifications, logistics, and officially certifying certain envelopes.


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## JohnWick

KapitaanAli said:


> Check the probe of Mirage 2k.
> 
> LCA was earlier tested with a starboard probe. Later it was moved to the front. I agree it's a weird look, but it's one of the reasons why it's a pleasure to refuel this aircraft in air. As for visual obstruction, it's exaggerated. Viewing from top, you'll realise that the pilot sits further back than you'd expect from most photos.


I was talking about the looks....
I checked the probe of M2K rather you should check the probe of F-18 F-16 J-10
EFT JFT Gripen and F-35....Looks much better.

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## KapitaanAli

I don't like the look of the probe either. But I'm sure it's the best possible position and shape.

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## Deino

Also interesting:

But not really! Via Angad Sigh



> Worth noting that as of Jan 2020, plan was to produce four FOC Tejas jets this FY, which clearly has not happened. The HAL press release now indicates one LCA this year, and the remaining 15 fighters through FY2021. Eight two-seat trainers in FY2021-22.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239852008661639168


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## Surya 1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is FOC???
> @dbc



Hardwares were frozen a long back except few additions. . Foc was about few additions in hardware and update in software which hold back FOC. Why SP 21 took some time to flew was because of software updates. These software includes recovering aircraft from low speed when it goes bellow 100 NM, recovering aircraft when pilot loose control of aircraft in case of high "g" turn.


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## anathema

PakShaheen79 said:


> That's odd because if an aircraft hasn't achieved FOC status, why it is being numbered as SP. Serial Production begins when design is frozen from both hardware and software point of view.



Thats an extremely simple take on the matter. A/C goes through IOC and then FOC. Between IOC and FOC - most of the Hardware is frozen (atleast theoretically); In LCA's case all the LRU's , wiring, Cockpit, A/C assembly is frozen. Software changes are never frozen ! Especially if you are the maker of the aircraft. In this case - software upgrades required to expand operational envelope, addition of new munitions/missiles and other items. 

From that perspective - IOC fighters will also be SP - since they can easily upgraded to FOC standard during MLU. Check out your JF17 history - it underwent a similar process.


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## Surya 1

Software updates will continue even after Tejas is in production. All aircrafts shall be updated with new software's.


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## anathema

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is FOC???
> @dbc


Full form is Final Operational Clearance. 

In plain speak - this machine has all the capabilties that IAF requires to fight an active war. Essentially it covers the full spectrum and roles ( AA , AG and AS)



Surya 1 said:


> Software updates will continue even after Tejas is in production. All aircrafts shall be updated with new software's.



Yes - and that is a benefit only if you are the manufacturer of the plane. We can never do this with our russian and french stuff.

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## CONNAN

integral GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun on #TejasSP21

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## Water Car Engineer

CONNAN said:


> integral GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun on #TejasSP21




I thought the gun isn't going to be included?

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## CONNAN

Water Car Engineer said:


> I thought the gun isn't going to be included?


 it is fully loaded no more if's and buts

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## Deino

CONNAN said:


> integral GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun on #TejasSP21




But wasn't this already clear?


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## rockstarIN

Deino said:


> Also interesting:
> 
> But not really! Via Angad Sigh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239852008661639168




4 FOCs to be delivered by end of 2019-20 financial year, i.e 31st March 2020.

One is ready, SP-22 will fly mostly next week. SP-23 & 24 is in final stages, mostly delivered in May.

Hence the new sqdn, Flying bullets will be formed with 3 FOC jets. The two month delay was becoz of the tweaks requested by sqdn operating IOC LCA. Mainly software upgrades.

FOC Features

SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refuelling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery to name a few. Here’s a quick glance at the new features :

*Air-to-air refuelling probe*: This novel feature of mid-air refuelling introduced to FOC variants will enhance the range without additional touch downs or pit-stops to refuel. This is the first desi fighter to have this feature.

*Fuel system enhancement*: Over and above 2350 kg fuel carrying capability of IOC variant with its external drop tanks of 1200 and 800 litres capacity, Tejas FOC has an additional 725 litres centre line drop tank with pressure refuelling.

*Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles*: The reliable Derby missile has expanded the firing envelope making it more lethal. This feature was tested and cleared for the entire FOC envelope via exhaustive study of missile separation characteristics.(I-Derby with extended range, with duel pulse motor range over 140km +)

*GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun:* This Russian gun underwent extensive butt firing at Nasik before getting on board SP-21. The integral gun would give an edge to the pilot in case of a close-combat scenario.


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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> But wasn't this already clear?



There was doubt it would fully make it into foc.

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## Deino

rockstarIN said:


> 4 FOCs to be delivered by end of 2019-20 financial year, i.e 31st March 2020.
> 
> One is ready, SP-22 will fly mostly next week. SP-23 & 24 is in final stages, mostly delivered in May.
> 
> Hence the new sqdn, Flying bullets will be formed with 3 FOC jets. The two month delay was becoz of the tweaks requested by sqdn operating IOC LCA. Mainly software upgrades.
> 
> ....




But I mus admit, if Angad questions this schedule, then I trust him.


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## Windjammer

CONNAN said:


> integral GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun on #TejasSP21


Seems to be similar in design as that on JF-17.


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## halupridol

CONNAN said:


> it is fully loaded no more if's and buts


Yes phul lee loaded as per dpsu,,,although thr is a but,,,the gun has not been fired in air,,only grnd tests done


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> Seems to be similar in design as that on JF-17.


same gun ....

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## CONNAN

Windjammer said:


> Seems to be similar in design as that on JF-17.


Design is actually from Mig 21 , IAF Mig 21 also uses the same gun

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## KapitaanAli



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240503320147456000
https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...-for-5-2-billion-lca-tejas-fighter-order.html

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240642999916224513

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## KapitaanAli

NLCA Mk1:

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## polanski

Hindustan Aeronautics flew first combat ready Tejas LCA: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...eronautics-flew-first-combat-ready-tejas-lca/


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## MirageBlue

Water Car Engineer said:


>



I had originally taken this pic from a friend's FB page and posted it on an Indian defence website. There is one mistake here, the quartz nose cone is made by Cobham, UK. The previously used Kevlar radome came from HAL, but apparently saw higher electromagnetic losses and so had to be replaced by the one from Cobham.






SP-18 (previously numbered SP-22, regn. number LA5022) undergoing Engine Ground Run tests. It should fly within a week or so.

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## JohnWick

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA Mk1:
> 
> View attachment 616058
> View attachment 616059
> View attachment 616060


Cockpit looks much inferior to thunder....


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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> NLCA Mk1:
> 
> View attachment 616060


What are these pedal like structures???


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## KapitaanAli

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What are these pedal like structures???


Controls nose wheels while taxiing. But they're called rudder pedals as they give input to control the rudder in flight. Brakes are also activated using the same.

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## KapitaanAli

JohnWick said:


> Cockpit looks much inferior to thunder....


Air Force LCA got one more display.

Looks are subjective, but FCS wise, we know where they stand.


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## Adam_Khan

Do you have a picture of airforce LCA cockpit,the cockpit does look a bit cramped though.


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## KapitaanAli

Yeah, it's not very suited for big pilots.

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## Haris Ali2140

KapitaanAli said:


> Yeah, it's not very suited for big pilots.
> 
> View attachment 617769


It has very less buttons then JF-17. Any idea why???


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## MirageBlue

JohnWick said:


> Cockpit looks much inferior to thunder....



In what way? Just based on the size of the MFDs? In fact, the Tejas has a better view out of the cockpit for the pilot than the JF-17, where the pilot sits lower in the cockpit compared to the Tejas. Rear view is comparatively poorer in both the jets (if you compare to the Rafale, F-16 and Typhoon).

Just FYI, the Tejas cockpit is designed based on the anthropometric data of Indian pilots, hence more suited to Indian pilots than the Russian and Western jets that were designed to their pilots. All the data that the pilot requires is presented on MFDs and the displays are better than those on the upgraded Mirage-2000Is. 

Plus, with the DASH HMDS, all the vital flight info is presented to the pilot directly on their helmet visor. That in itself is a huge advantage for any pilot.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has very less buttons then JF-17. Any idea why???



Not sure what buttons you're referring to. the full-glass cockpit concept is to minimize the number of buttons and switches and allow the pilot to CHOOSE what information to see on the MFDs. The rest of the switches and buttons you see are all related to the various airplane and engine controls that a pilot needs. 

Just BTW, the Tejas cockpit is considered to be the most intuitive and pilot friendly cockpits in the IAF. I know this from a Test Pilot, who has flown the upgraded Mirage-2000I and Su-30MKIs.



Adam_Khan said:


> Do you have a picture of airforce LCA cockpit,the cockpit does look a bit cramped though.



Repeating what I said in an earlier post -

the Tejas cockpit was designed as per the 95th percentile Indian male dimensions. Which means that all cockpit instruments, the pedals, the stick, the seat and pedal adjustments, the MFD distance from the ejection seat, are all designed keeping Indian pilot's height in mind. 

If you're 6'4" then this will be a very tight fit for you. But 95% of the pilots in the IAF will not fall in that category and so it really doesn't matter.


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## JohnWick

MirageBlue said:


> In what way? Just based on the size of the MFDs? In fact, the Tejas has a better view out of the cockpit for the pilot than the JF-17, where the pilot sits lower in the cockpit compared to the Tejas. Rear view is comparatively poorer in both the jets (if you compare to the Rafale, F-16 and Typhoon).
> 
> Just FYI, the Tejas cockpit is designed based on the anthropometric data of Indian pilots, hence more suited to Indian pilots than the Russian and Western jets that were designed to their pilots. All the data that the pilot requires is presented on MFDs and the displays are better than those on the upgraded Mirage-2000Is.
> 
> Plus, with the DASH HMDS, all the vital flight info is presented to the pilot directly on their helmet visor. That in itself is a huge advantage for any pilot.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what buttons you're referring to. the full-glass cockpit concept is to minimize the number of buttons and switches and allow the pilot to CHOOSE what information to see on the MFDs. The rest of the switches and buttons you see are all related to the various airplane and engine controls that a pilot needs.


Yes I understand there are different types of species of human in West and Indian for cockpit design....Yes I mean in terms of market the customer sees only that extra and larger MFD things....wasn't you go to buy a car from a showroom?....Think in that terms....Rafale,Typhoon,Eagle and Gripen have the best HMD but still look at their cockpit and HUD.....
Also look at the HUD of block 3.
Also look at the position of pilot.




As the sitting of pilot is concerned it is sorry to say a senseless argument....And it is not where you can lie


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## Adam_Khan

KapitaanAli said:


> Yeah, it's not very suited for big pilots.
> 
> View attachment 617769



There is no difference but the two cockpits bro,just that they have covered the central pedestal display in the naval version.


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## Lord Of Gondor



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## MirageBlue

JohnWick said:


> Yes I understand there are different types of species of human in West and Indian for cockpit design....Yes I mean in terms of market the customer sees only that extra and larger MFD things....wasn't you go to buy a car from a showroom?....Think in that terms....Rafale,Typhoon,Eagle and Gripen have the best HMD but still look at their cockpit and HUD.....
> Also look at the HUD of block 3.
> Also look at the position of pilot.
> View attachment 617998
> 
> As the sitting of pilot is concerned it is sorry to say a senseless argument....And it is not where you can lie


Look, I'm not here for arguments. But I'll illustrate my point.

Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill comes up right near his shoulder, just a few cm below where his shoulder is. The same thing can also be seen for the front seat JF-17B pilot, although to be fair, the picture is taken from a lower angle and hence it seems worse than in the single seater JF-17.










Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill is several inches below his shoulder.






It has to do with the way the contour lines on the JF-17 and Tejas were designed, at the very beginning of the design process.

Here is another view. This time, with the canopy open and here one can see clearly how high the respective pilots sit in the cockpit.

Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is a few inches below his shoulder






Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is several inches below his shoulder.






See the difference? Different designs, different outcomes.

Another aspect that also becomes clear with these images is that the Tejas ejection seat is inclined at a greater angle than the JF-17's ejection seat. And why does that matter? Because seat inclination helps the pilot in dealing with high G-forces, generally believed to improve G-force handling by upto +1 G. The higher the inclination the better. Obviously without making the inclination so great that the pilot cannot operate the instruments or see the MFDs. The F-16 has one of the highest seat recline angles- it's 28 degrees I believe.

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## JohnWick

MirageBlue said:


> Look, I'm not here for arguments. But I'll illustrate my point.
> 
> Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill comes up right near his shoulder, just a few cm below where his shoulder is. The same thing can also be seen for the front seat JF-17B pilot, although to be fair, the picture is taken from a lower angle and hence it seems worse than in the single seater JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill is several inches below his shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the way the contour lines on the JF-17 and Tejas were designed, at the very beginning of the design process.
> 
> Here is another view. This time, with the canopy open and here one can see clearly how high the respective pilots sit in the cockpit.
> 
> Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is a few inches below his shoulder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is several inches below his shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference? Different designs, different outcomes.
> 
> Another aspect that also becomes clear with these images is that the Tejas ejection seat is inclined at a greater angle than the JF-17's ejection seat. And why does that matter? Because seat inclination helps the pilot in dealing with high G-forces, generally believed to improve G-force handling by upto +1 G. The higher the inclination the better. Obviously without making the inclination so great that the pilot cannot operate the instruments or see the MFDs. The F-16 has one of the highest seat recline angles- it's 28 degrees I believe.


Excellent....
But as you know that from Mig-33 To Super 7 then ultimately to JF-17 Thunder it has Russian genes in Simple words....As just in case of mki....Look at the pilot position....
It doesn't Matter where the pilot sits....







What matters is the arsenal and Radar of a plane in real combat but In exports the OTHERS thing matters ....For Example the engine of a plane....No m not taking about the thrust etc etc The matter of concern is availability....price and performance.MAF has air superiority over Bangladeshis air Force cz of there arsenal i.e SD-10....I mean There are very few air forces which can bear a volley of SD-10 direct on face and BAF is certainly not one of them.

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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> Look, I'm not here for arguments. But I'll illustrate my point.
> 
> Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill comes up right near his shoulder, just a few cm below where his shoulder is. The same thing can also be seen for the front seat JF-17B pilot, although to be fair, the picture is taken from a lower angle and hence it seems worse than in the single seater JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and as you can see clearly, the canopy sill is several inches below his shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the way the contour lines on the JF-17 and Tejas were designed, at the very beginning of the design process.
> 
> Here is another view. This time, with the canopy open and here one can see clearly how high the respective pilots sit in the cockpit.
> 
> Here is a JF-17 pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is a few inches below his shoulder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Tejas pilot in the cockpit and the cockpit edge (over which the canopy sill sits) is several inches below his shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference? Different designs, different outcomes.
> 
> Another aspect that also becomes clear with these images is that the Tejas ejection seat is inclined at a greater angle than the JF-17's ejection seat. And why does that matter? Because seat inclination helps the pilot in dealing with high G-forces, generally believed to improve G-force handling by upto +1 G. The higher the inclination the better. Obviously without making the inclination so great that the pilot cannot operate the instruments or see the MFDs. The F-16 has one of the highest seat recline angles- it's 28 degrees I believe.



Extremely well articulated !


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## MirageBlue

JohnWick said:


> Excellent....
> But as you know that from Mig-33 To Super 7 then ultimately to JF-17 Thunder it has Russian genes in Simple words....As just in case of mki....Look at the pilot position....
> It doesn't Matter where the pilot sits....
> View attachment 621460
> View attachment 621459
> 
> What matters is the arsenal and Radar of a plane in real combat but In exports the OTHERS thing matters ....For Example the engine of a plane....No m not taking about the thrust etc etc The matter of concern is availability....price and performance.MAF has air superiority over Bangladeshis air Force cz of there arsenal i.e SD-10....I mean There are very few air forces which can bear a volley of SD-10 direct on face and BAF is certainly not one of them.



So u would agree now, the Tejas pilot sits higher in the cockpit.

I was discussing the cockpit design as you claimed that the JF-17 had a better cockpit than the Tejas. Whereas cockpit design has several elements that need to be factored in, not just the size of MFDs. 

And I mentioned that the pilot sits higher in the Tejas and has a better view outside, in the front and side quadrants. View out of the rear is not that great in either of the jets, at least as compared to F-16, Rafale or Typhoon.

How does this matter? Well, if you ask pilots they'll tell you. For e.g. F-15 pilots always remarked how the high seating in the F-15 cockpit gave excellent view out of the cockpit, when compared to any other fighter. Which helps greatly in general flying as well as in close combat. Ask any MiG-21 pilot and you'll know that they always had the disadvantage of sitting in a cockpit that gave very poor frontal view and not that great side views either.

I agree that the JF-17's genesis was in the Super-7 project. That Russian cockpit design philosophy is somewhat visible there.

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## JohnWick

MirageBlue said:


> I was discussing the cockpit design as you claimed that the JF-17 had a better cockpit than the Tejas. Whereas cockpit design has several elements that need to be factored in, not just the size of MFDs.


The place where the pilot sit in Thunder is same as that of Gripen.




Also you can consider the F/A-18 Super Hornet....




And also the cockpit of Thunder is designed in an incline way....I mean the edges of the cockpit lowered as we move to the anterior side of the plane....It is also an illusion for some people in a way.


MirageBlue said:


> .
> 
> How does this matter? Well, if you ask pilots they'll tell you. For e.g. F-15 pilots always remarked how the high seating in the F-15 cockpit gave excellent view out of the cockpit, when compared to any other fighter. Which helps greatly in general flying as well as in close combat. Ask any MiG-21 pilot and you'll know that they always had the disadvantage of sitting in a cockpit that gave very poor frontal view and not that great side views either.
> 
> I agree that the JF-17's genesis was in the Super-7 project. That Russian cockpit design philosophy is somewhat visible there.


So you are saying in way that The Sukhois are just a piece of shit where the pilot sits deep inside cockpit????




The Chinese spent Billions $ on J series flankers and bought Su-35....Are Foolish people or you r smarter enough than them?
I am what kind of difference 2 to 3 inches gonna make?

As far as MFDs r concerened m sure that you never went to bought a even a simple car like Suzuki Alto 800 from a showroom....So you can understand what I meant....That these things really matters....


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## MirageBlue

anathema said:


> Extremely well articulated !



Thank you.

I had seen some other post here that was criticizing the positioning of the aerial refueling probe on the Tejas. Well, here is my take on it.

The fact is that many of the Tejas' Test Pilots are former Mirage-2000 pilots and as we know, the positioning of the probe is nearly the same on both jets. If pilots flying the Mirage-2000 never complained about the probe blocking the view, then the same applies to the Tejas.

And if you've seen videos of the Mirage-2000 from the cockpit, you'll realise that the probe doesn't really block the view.

But there is a huge advantage to it being positioned in front of the canopy and not on the side.
1) It is right in the eye line of the pilot, looking forward. He doesn't have to look sideways to position the fighter to refuel
2) It avoids the possibility of the drogue basket hitting the canopy when a contact is missed. This is one of the biggest threats to pilots in fighters where the probe is placed on the side. The drogue basket if it swings about, can crack a canopy and no pilot on earth will want that.
3) Very careful CFD and wind tunnel testing and modeling was done to analyse the wake flow and as a result, when the first contact was attempted with the drogue basket, it was done beautifully.
4) the FCS is designed to make the aerial refueling an extremely smooth and safe operation. Once again, according to a Tejas Test Pilot I spoke to, aerial refueling is the easiest on the Tejas compared to all other IAF jets, including the Mirage-2000.

Read this interview with a Gripen pilot

When asked what is his least favorite thing about the Gripen- it was the aerial refueling probe. The reason why it was placed there was because it was retrofitted into an already set fuselage and they didn't want to make all the changes required to put it up front next to the pilot's field of vision.



> *What is your least favourite thing?
> 
> The refuelling probe length and position on the Gripen C/D. Even though I know the reasons behind the placing and length (retrofitted into an already set fuselage) it makes a mission component, that should be easy and predictable, an unnecessarily exciting part of the mission. Anecdote coming up! I’ve been told that when Gripen C/D was certified for air refuelling the subject matter expert pilot said something like: “Gripen has probably the world’s worst probe placement but compensates that with the world’s best flight control system.” I concur with the statement. You can fly to the basket/drogue and stay easily within a meter or so of it, positioning your Gripen with almost centimetre precision with the stick, but when you approach it the wake of the canopy will push it outwards. This means that you’ll have to “go for it” and aim a bit on the outside of the drogue. This is not a good recipe for predictability. You do get good at it after a while and learn how to do it safely, but a longer probe wouldn’t harm.”*





JohnWick said:


> The place where the pilot sit in Thunder is same as that of Gripen.
> View attachment 621600
> 
> Also you can consider the F/A-18 Super Hornet....
> View attachment 621601
> 
> And also the cockpit of Thunder is designed in an incline way....I mean the edges of the cockpit lowered as we move to the anterior side of the plane....It is also an illusion for some people in a way.
> 
> So you are saying in way that The Sukhois are just a piece of shit where the pilot sits deep inside cockpit????
> View attachment 621602
> 
> The Chinese spent Billions $ on J series flankers and bought Su-35....Are Foolish people or you r smarter enough than them?
> I am what kind of difference 2 to 3 inches gonna make?
> 
> As far as MFDs r concerened m sure that you never went to bought a even a simple car like Suzuki Alto 800 from a showroom....So you can understand what I meant....That these things really matters....
> View attachment 621607



I can see from the quality of your posts as to what your level of discussion will be.

I won't discuss this anymore with you since it's not worth my time.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

How many LCA Flying Rickshaws have been inducted into the Indian Air Force so far (not will be inducted in future)?


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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I had seen some other post here that was criticizing the positioning of the aerial refueling probe on the Tejas. Well, here is my take on it.
> 
> The fact is that many of the Tejas' Test Pilots are former Mirage-2000 pilots and as we know, the positioning of the probe is nearly the same on both jets. If pilots flying the Mirage-2000 never complained about the probe blocking the view, then the same applies to the Tejas.



Positioning of refueling probe is an issue that exists only in the imagination of posters of this forum. A term comes to mind 'Criticizing for the sake of criticizing' - since some of the posters are desperate to find faults with Tejas this seems to be one of the stupid items that generally has consensus over here. On the contrary JF17 refuelling probe is actually poor and is a cop out due to design inefficiencies.



JohnWick said:


> View attachment 621607



1st is this JF17 block 3 cockpit ?

2nd LAD is not just about display but is much more than that.

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## Crixus




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## JohnWick

MirageBlue said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I had seen some other post here that was criticizing the positioning of the aerial refueling probe on the Tejas. Well, here is my take on it.
> 
> The fact is that many of the Tejas' Test Pilots are former Mirage-2000 pilots and as we know, the positioning of the probe is nearly the same on both jets. If pilots flying the Mirage-2000 never complained about the probe blocking the view, then the same applies to the Tejas.
> 
> And if you've seen videos of the Mirage-2000 from the cockpit, you'll realise that the probe doesn't really block the view.
> 
> But there is a huge advantage to it being positioned in front of the canopy and not on the side.
> 1) It is right in the eye line of the pilot, looking forward. He doesn't have to look sideways to position the fighter to refuel
> 2) It avoids the possibility of the drogue basket hitting the canopy when a contact is missed. This is one of the biggest threats to pilots in fighters where the probe is placed on the side. The drogue basket if it swings about, can crack a canopy and no pilot on earth will want that.
> 3) Very careful CFD and wind tunnel testing and modeling was done to analyse the wake flow and as a result, when the first contact was attempted with the drogue basket, it was done beautifully.
> 4) the FCS is designed to make the aerial refueling an extremely smooth and safe operation. Once again, according to a Tejas Test Pilot I spoke to, aerial refueling is the easiest on the Tejas compared to all other IAF jets, including the Mirage-2000.
> 
> Read this interview with a Gripen pilot
> 
> When asked what is his least favorite thing about the Gripen- it was the aerial refueling probe. The reason why it was placed there was because it was retrofitted into an already set fuselage and they didn't want to make all the changes required to put it up front next to the pilot's field of vision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see from the quality of your posts as to what your level of discussion will be.
> 
> I won't discuss this anymore with you since it's not worth my time.


Why you can't understand that everyone does not live in your Wizard of Oz....
If that is the case then Why Lookhead Martin developed that kind of aerial refueling probe in their premier
F-22 Raptor?....Where the pilot can't see anything.



Also look at the aerial refueling probe of
F-15 Strike Eagle....Are these premier aircraft companies of the world couldn't put a piece of shit looking probe direct inside the mouth of the plane?



at last for more of your Satisfaction you can also consider the aerial refueling probe of
F-16 Fighting Falcon.



I was only saying that you are just making a fool out of yourself....


anathema said:


> Positioning of refueling probe is an issue that exists only in the imagination of posters of this forum. A term comes to mind 'Criticizing for the sake of criticizing' - since some of the posters are desperate to find faults with Tejas this seems to be one of the stupid items that generally has consensus over here. On the contrary JF17 refuelling probe is actually poor and is a cop out due to design inefficiencies.
> 
> 
> 
> 1st is this JF17 block 3 cockpit ?
> 
> 2nd LAD is not just about display but is much more than that.


Nahh bud it was the F-35 lightning ll cockpit ....And my point was that if The modren looking cockpit was not the case then the makers of F-35 which are the finest of this world could put 2 to 3 small piece of shit MFDs in their state of art machine....
Anyway thanks for asking.....
As far as the aerial refueling probe of
JF-17 Thunder is concerned it is on the same position as that of F-35 lightning ll
Are you consider CAC and Lookhead Martin
Companies Foolish that they put aerial refueling probe in decent looking way rather putting it like a tumor direct on the face of the airplane as in Tejas?


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## MirageBlue

JohnWick said:


> Why you can't understand that everyone does not live in your Wizard of Oz....
> If that is the case then Why Lookhead Martin developed that kind of aerial refueling probe in their premier
> F-22 Raptor?....Where the pilot can't see anything.
> View attachment 621776
> Also look at the aerial refueling probe of
> F-15 Strike Eagle....Are these premier aircraft companies of the world couldn't put a piece of shit looking probe direct inside the mouth of the plane?
> View attachment 621777
> at last for more of your Satisfaction you can also consider the aerial refueling probe of
> F-16 Fighting Falcon.
> View attachment 621778
> I was only saying that you are just making a fool out of yourself....
> 
> Nahh bud it was the F-35 lightning ll cockpit ....And my point was that if The modren looking cockpit was not the case then the makers of F-35 which are the finest of this world could put 2 to 3 small piece of shit MFDs in their state of art machine....
> Anyway thanks for asking.....
> As far as the aerial refueling probe of
> JF-17 Thunder is concerned it is on the same position as that of F-35 lightning ll
> Are you consider CAC and Lookhead Martin
> Companies Foolish that they put aerial refueling probe in decent looking way rather putting it like a tumor direct on the face of the airplane as in Tejas?
> View attachment 621775



Lol..Even your basics are so poor, what can one say?

You don't even understand the difference between probe/drogue refueling and boom refueling and you're arguing with me.

F-22, F-15, F-16, F-35A, etc. ALL are designed for BOOM refueling. In the case of boom refueling, the pilot just has to bring the aircraft close to the tanker and the boom operator on the tanker has the job of connecting the boom and conducting the refueling.

In the case of probe/drogue refueling, the pilot of the fighter needs to position the probe exactly where the drogue is. So the positioning of the probe is of utmost importance. Hence the position of the probe on the Tejas, Mirage-2000, Rafale, etc. is right in front of the canopy. F/A-18 is one of the few American jets that has probe/drogue refueling capability and hence it's probe is positioned as shown below- in front of the pilot. Only good thing for the Hornet is that it is a retractable probe since there is space inside the nose to retract the probe into.






I think for you, it's Tejas, it's Indian, and hence it's bad. Simple. I get that. Such people are best avoided, since I am here to engage in sensible discussions, not the kind of rhetoric you engage in.



JohnWick said:


> As far as the aerial refueling probe of
> JF-17 Thunder is concerned it is on the same position as that of F-35 lightning ll
> Are you consider CAC and Lookhead Martin
> Companies Foolish that they put aerial refueling probe in decent looking way rather putting it like a tumor direct on the face of the airplane as in Tejas?
> View attachment 621775



You don't get it, do you?

the F-35 has a RETRACTABLE probe. That means you need space in the NOSE (behind the RADOME where the RADAR is), to be able to fit the retracting probe into. the F-35 or ANY fighter that has a Retractable probe, will have to position it away from the nose UNLESS the nose has enough volume to fit the probe into, like in the case of the F/A-18 and Su-30.

On the Typhoon, MiG-29, Jaguar, F-35B, et.all, the retractable probe means that there is simply no option but to position it sideways, NEXT TO the pilot's eye line, where there is volume available in the fuselage to fit it. Understand??

I know all this will fly right over your head, but explaining it nevertheless.



anathema said:


> Positioning of refueling probe is an issue that exists only in the imagination of posters of this forum. A term comes to mind 'Criticizing for the sake of criticizing' - since some of the posters are desperate to find faults with Tejas this seems to be one of the stupid items that generally has consensus over here. On the contrary JF17 refuelling probe is actually poor and is a cop out due to design inefficiencies.
> 
> 
> 
> 1st is this JF17 block 3 cockpit ?
> 
> 2nd LAD is not just about display but is much more than that.



Yes, I get that. Criticize the Tejas because it's Indian and has been delayed.

Having spoken to the TP, I was told that the probe was positioned with full NFTC Test Pilots' involvement. The entire thing was studied very carefully and a lot of CFD analysis was done before they even began ground fit trials. 

The reason the probe is positioned so far forward on the Tejas, Mirage-2000 and Rafale is TO AVOID the aircraft WAKE airflow generated around the canopy. The farther forward you position the probe, the lower is the wake. What the wake does is that it causes turbulent airflow that pushes the Drogue basket away from the probe, meaning the pilot has a difficult time trying to connect to the Drogue basket. The Gripen pilot confirmed that as well in his interview with Hushkit.

Also, the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) will very likely feature a retractable probe as per an ADA interview. That very likely means the probe will be moved to the side as it is in the case of Typhoon, since the nose doesn't have the empty volume to fit the retracting probe into.

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## Aswaklanta D

Hello
When is hal lca tejas mk1a going to be inducted?
Some say 2023-24.
And what is news of hal mwf. I saw photos of the aircraft, it is beautiful.we need to produce 100+ mwf in next 5-10 years. 
Should we trust ada and hal.


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## MirageBlue

Aswaklanta D said:


> Hello
> When is hal lca tejas mk1a going to be inducted?
> Some say 2023-24.
> And what is news of hal mwf. I saw photos of the aircraft, it is beautiful.we need to produce 100+ mwf in next 5-10 years.
> Should we trust ada and hal.



3 years from date of signing the contract, as per HAL. That is when the first serial production Tejas Mk1A will roll out of the assembly line and be handed over to the IAF for squadron formation.

Should see the first Mk1A prototype (a modified Tejas Mk1 LSP prototype) fly in 2021. Should give around 2 years of time for trials to achieve IOC. FOC will take more time. 

And yeah, the MWF is a really beautiful fighter. Already in detailed design phase, the metal cutting for the first prototype will begin in February 2021. First MWF prototype will be rolled out in 2022 or 2023. 

As per the IAF, around 200 MWF will be inducted, to replace the Jaguar, MiG-29 and eventually the Mirage-2000.

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## Aswaklanta D

Thank you.
Also wanted to know, why it taking so long.
We making fighters from long ago.
In tejas also, many important parts like engine, radar, electronic suite, misiles are imported. They only assembling it to our own airframe.
Similar thing we been doing for so long with migs and sukhois. If our agencies did not learn anything from all that experience about making indigenous fighter, how can we be sure that they will learn anything here.we paid more money to make sukhois in India, from Russia directly it costs less. 
Mwf will have great weight carrying capacity but again engine not powerful.
I think if we don't change our agencies, we will be in same position after 10 years.


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## jk007

MirageBlue said:


> 3 years from date of signing the contract, as per HAL. That is when the first serial production Tejas Mk1A will roll out of the assembly line and be handed over to the IAF for squadron formation.
> 
> Should see the first Mk1A prototype (a modified Tejas Mk1 LSP prototype) fly in 2021. Should give around 2 years of time for trials to achieve IOC. FOC will take more time.
> 
> And yeah, the MWF is a really beautiful fighter. Already in detailed design phase, the metal cutting for the first prototype will begin in February 2021. First MWF prototype will be rolled out in 2022 or 2023.
> 
> As per the IAF, around 200 MWF will be inducted, to replace the Jaguar, MiG-29 and eventually the Mirage-2000.



I spoke with one person in HAL (very disinterested person)....he says that IAF is not interested in MK2 (MWF), but very interested in AMCA.....hence, ADA is shifting resources to AMCA.....Can it be true?


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## halupridol

Aswaklanta D said:


> Thank you.
> Also wanted to know, why it taking so long.
> We making fighters from long ago.
> In tejas also, many important parts like engine, radar, electronic suite, misiles are imported. They only assembling it to our own airframe.
> Similar thing we been doing for so long with migs and sukhois. If our agencies did not learn anything from all that experience about making indigenous fighter, how can we be sure that they will learn anything here.we paid more money to make sukhois in India, from Russia directly it costs less.
> Mwf will have great weight carrying capacity but again engine not powerful.
> I think if we don't change our agencies, we will be in same position after 10 years.


Karon ihote sob misa kotha koi ase,,,enei hawat kotha koi.
Dont believe them.
Lca is a failed project,mk1a is just saving face.At best it is a poor mans mirage but costs more.
Mk1a will take 7-8years for induction,,baki bisakh nokoriba.
Mwf is a whole new aircraft,,induction 10-15years.(if they start now)


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## Aswaklanta D

But in one video I saw ada chief say, no protype for mwf, direct production variant will be produced. It will fly in 2021-22.
It's not new aircraft but only adding canards to tejas design. If airforce orders it in large then I believe it can be inducted in 5-6years.but more powerful engine needed and strict changes in agencies.
And tejas is not failed program. It's flying and defending skies.


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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> Having spoken to the TP, .



If you do have access to TP - then can you check why G is limited 8 and what is the STR ? What are the combat implications of limiting the g to 8


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## Aswaklanta D

Is it true that the tejas fighters in squadron service do not have bvr, gun, jammer,adequate radar modes etc. 
In the new video of foc pilot hear that ioc can do only 6g.
Feeling disappointed.


----------



## MirageBlue

anathema said:


> If you do have access to TP - then can you check why G is limited 8 and what is the STR ? What are the combat implications of limiting the g to 8



STR is not something they will reveal. When I had asked the ITR and STR details to a TP some years ago, all I was told was "it's enough..no need to worry about it". That was way before FOC.

In all honesty, given Dash-V HMDS and R-73E or ASRAAM like High-Offbore Sight (HOBS) missiles, a dogfight will end up in the targeted fighter getting a missile on it's tail. These HOBS missiles are truly incredible in the offbore angle at which they can be fired. The pilot needs to get the enemy on his HMDS, which he can do just by looking out of the cockpit and designating it with HOTAS controls. The Tejas doesn't even need to be pointing in the direction of the enemy fighter. If the enemy fighter is within a 180 degree arc of the Tejas' nose, the pilot will be able to designate the target on his HMDS and fire the R-73E and in the future, the ASRAAM.

8G vs 9G is far more relevant to a guns-only fight or during DACT when Rules of Engagement dictate that a guns-only engagement is required. Just FYI, the JF-17 and KAI FA-50 are also limited to max +8G. Only the Gripen is +9G rated out of the modern light fighters. 



Aswaklanta D said:


> Is it true that the tejas fighters in squadron service do not have bvr, gun, jammer,adequate radar modes etc.
> In the new video of foc pilot hear that ioc can do only 6g.
> Feeling disappointed.



It is all software related- nothing to do with the hardware on the IOC jets as such. No.45 Squadron's IOC jets will get the updated FOC software release to allow for 8G maneuvering, Derby BVRAAM and full 24 deg AoA maneuvering. Remember, it is the FCS software that controls how many Gs or what AoA a pilot can achieve. So this will be easily done. 

The Derby BVRAAM will be cleared for the No.45 Squadron's Tejas fighters too. Confirmed by HAL test pilot on Twitter.

As to the Gsh-23 cannon, trials are to be conducted once the Covid-19 restrictions are lifted. After that, No.45 Squadrons' fighters will also be cleared to fire the Gsh-23.

I don't know where you came up with this "adequate radar modes". As per reports, the Elta 2032 MMR on the Tejas is considered to be absolutely top notch. As of now, the best radar in the IAF, with the RDY-3 on the Mirage-2000I very close. As one person in the know mentioned, whereas the BARS radar on the Su-30MKI is a brute, the Elta 2032 MMR is much more refined. The exact words as I recall were that the resolution of the Tejas' Elta 2032 MMR radar in Air to Air modes is far better than on the BARS.



jk007 said:


> I spoke with one person in HAL (very disinterested person)....he says that IAF is not interested in MK2 (MWF), but very interested in AMCA.....hence, ADA is shifting resources to AMCA.....Can it be true?



Lol..if the IAF is so disinterested in the MWF, then why are they committing to ordering 200+ MWF jets? 

From all reports, the IAF is EXTREMELY interested in the MWF. They have officers embedded in the program from the Project Definition Phase (PDP) itself. It is the IAF which wanted the MWF to have a MTOW of 17.5 tons, up from the earlier defined 16 tons. 

Given how much the Mirage-2000 is respected in the IAF, the MWF is the closest the IAF will come to replacing it with a fighter designed to meet and exceed it's specifications in every aspect. And the IAF knows that. 

What is not very clear is how the IAF is looking at HAL's proposed ORCA twin engined fighter. That would be a Rafale class fighter, derived from the TEDBF that ADA is working on for the Indian Navy's fighter requirement.

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## Aswaklanta D

Thank you
I am not expert but I don't believe things are simple like u say. 
Upgrade can only done after producing all foc in 4years.till then no gun, no bvr, no jammer, what good is it, maybe for training only. Who thinks of making fighter without bvr and gun. 
Radar with imported radome work now. 

And if mwf fails to produce in time, it will become same like tejas. Ada chief says in 1-2 years for flying. It must be completed in time this time. But must think of better engine then f414. N discipline agencies.

By the way, I am very disappointed after watching new video of annanthakrishna on sp21. 
Some engineers and technicians talk poorly in English like me. 
Even for MA student like me is difficult to read good books because most are in English. 
How did this technicians and engineers pass exams. 
How they read latest development and scientific articles with so poor English.


----------



## MirageBlue

Aswaklanta D said:


> But in one video I saw ada chief say, no protype for mwf, direct production variant will be produced. It will fly in 2021-22.
> It's not new aircraft but only adding canards to tejas design. If airforce orders it in large then I believe it can be inducted in 5-6years.but more powerful engine needed and strict changes in agencies.
> And tejas is not failed program. It's flying and defending skies.



No, what Dr Girish Deodhare had said was that Production Standard Prototypes will be built.

Basically there won't be a Technology Demonstrator or Limited Series Prototypes built, as was the case with Tejas Mk1. Production Standard Prototypes can be built because all the technologies that needed to be demonstrated and validated before going to production, such as quadruplex digital FBW FCS, composites and glass cockpit, have all been perfected on the Tejas Mk1 itself.

As far as MWF being a new aircraft is concerned, here is what it will be-

- New control surfaces (canards), modified outer geometry and better wing to body blending. The vertical tail is taller by ~0.25 meters
- the FBW FCS will be derived from the Tejas Mk1. It will be modified as per the MWF design. It has to cater to the new control surfaces (canards) that are being introduced. It will have to be modified due to the higher weights and different CG and CL that the MWF will have compared to the Tejas Mk1
- the cockpit will be new, with Large Area Display (LAD) and side-stick controller instead of the center stick on the Mk1 and Mk1A. New wider HUD will be used. HOTAS controls similar to Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A
- Updated Fuel Management System that will be derived from the Tejas Mk1
- Updated Brake Management System that will be derived from the Tejas Mk1
- New Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) that is also being used for the Tejas Mk1A. Far more capable, far faster.
- New Architecture for the Avionics
- On-board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) for basically allowing LOX cylinders to be replaced. Current Tejas Mk1 is restricted to 10 hour long sortie based on the amount of LOX carried onboard. the OBOGS is already ready.
- New airframe structure, which is obvious given the much higher payload, internal fuel, etc.
- Wing span increased by 0.3 meters. This is done by moving the wings out, not by making the wings bigger. As it is, the Tejas Mk1 has the LOWEST wing loading of almost any fighter in the world. MWF will maintain the same low wing loading thanks to the addition of canards that will also generate lift, despite wing area not being increased from the Mk1. As you might know, Low Wing Loading equates to maneuverability.
- New wing-tip pylons to carry CCM (ASRAAM class)
- New inboards, that include the wiring, piping, etc. Again, it will be starting off from the Tejas Mk1 and modified accordingly
- AESA radar that will most likely be the indigenous Uttam AESA radar, which is currently being tested on a Tejas prototype. Out of the 18 air to air, air to ground and air to sea modes that needed to be tested, 10 have been tested so far.
- new Long Range Dual Band IRST, most likely derived from the indigenous IRST that is being developed for the Su-30MKI


> Earlier this week, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), led by India’s defence minister, also approved the indigenous design and development of a long range dual band infrared imaging search and track system (IRST) for the Su-30 MKI. At least 100 units are to be procured.


article link

A lot of work, but still a derivative of the Tejas, since the baseline is the technologies that were developed for the Tejas Mk1.



Aswaklanta D said:


> Thank you
> I am not expert but I don't believe things are simple like u say.
> Upgrade can only done after producing all foc in 4years.till then no gun, no bvr, no jammer, what good is it, maybe for training only. Who thinks of making fighter without bvr and gun.
> Radar with imported radome work now.



I never said it was simple. It requires a lot of work, but ADA, HAL and NAL are deeply involved in it along with other DRDO labs. The govt.'s direction is clear- the MRCA will be the last imported fighter. Indigenous fighters are the way to go and funding is made available to make that happen.

So please tell me why is it that upgrade can be done only after producing all FOC jets? And be specific.

Did you see the Tarmak video carefully? If so, did you not spot SP-1 (LA-5001) and SP-5 (LA-5005) in the hangar right next to SP-21? They were both in the hangar undergoing some sort of repair or modifications (engine was taken out of LA-5005).

Software upgrades don't require the airplane to be taken apart. I don't know how aware you of software deployment and testing, but it can be done with the airplane grounded for a couple of days, then tested and flown. And the gun and the pylon to carry the Derby BVRAAM (which was there on SP-21, now called SP-17) can be integrated by HAL easily in the hangar. It doesn't require overhaul to be done.

SPJ is coming with the Mk1A. the problem is the lack of internal space. But it will eventually find it's way back into the Mk1 too. It is a high priority item. 

What is the problem with the radome being imported from Cobham? It works beautifully and allows the Tejas' Elta 2032 MMR to be used to it's full capability. 

As for who thinks of making fighter without BVR and gun, check out what the Typhoon Tranche 1 and Rafale F1 were capable of. All fighters are updated and upgraded over time. if you want everything from day 1, then you'll be sitting waiting and then



> And if mwf fails to produce in time, it will become same like tejas. Ada chief says in 1-2 years for flying. It must be completed in time this time. But must think of better engine then f414. N discipline agencies.
> 
> By the way, I am very disappointed after watching new video of annanthakrishna on sp21.
> Some engineers and technicians talk poorly in English like me.
> Even for MA student like me is difficult to read good books because most are in English.
> How did this technicians and engineers pass exams.
> How they read latest development and scientific articles with so poor English.



ADA Chief never said 1-2 years of flying. Don't put words in his mouth. The MWF will follow the path of the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A - first it will target IOC with a limited set of capabilities. Only a couple of years after IOC will it get FOC, which will require thousands of test points to be tested out.

Look at the Gripen E/F program to gain in insight into how complex this process is. When did it first fly and when is the first IOC Gripen E/F going to be handed over?

As for your being disappointed over the engineers' English, I'd say just grow up!

I work in aerospace and I've worked with Serbian and Russian engineers who could barely speak a sentence of English. Italians from Alenia who spoke terrible English. Frenchmen from Dassault who won't even attempt to speak English despite knowing the words. Japanese from Mitsubishi Aerospace who needed translators. Americans who came to the airplane factory in shorts and sleeveless shirts. But they knew their work very well and I am proud to say that I've learnt from most of them.

If you make your opinions of people based on how good their English is or how smart they look, then that speaks more about you than the others.

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## Goodbye!

anathema said:


> why G is limited 8 and what is the STR ? What are the combat implications of limiting the g to 8




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244183207831932928

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244184728011280384

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244388951021875200

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244186171921629184

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244196056134373376


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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> What is the problem with the radome being imported from *Cobham*? It works beautifully and allows the Tejas' Elta 2032 MMR to be used to it's full capability.


So Elta has refused to work with Cobham. So in all probability - from Mk1A onwards we might see radome from Elta. I guess its their way of getting more work share - pity considering Cobham really accommodated us. 

Since you are in touch with TP - whats their opinion about ODL ? Why is it so much delayed ? And what is the current status ? Also how does ODL solve the problem of sharing tactical data between Russian a/c's ( Su 30,etc )to wester a/c's (Rafale)?

Thanks


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## MirageBlue

anathema said:


> So Elta has refused to work with Cobham. So in all probability - from Mk1A onwards we might see radome from Elta. I guess its their way of getting more work share - pity considering Cobham really accommodated us.
> 
> Since you are in touch with TP - whats their opinion about ODL ? Why is it so much delayed ? And what is the current status ? Also how does ODL solve the problem of sharing tactical data between Russian a/c's ( Su 30,etc )to wester a/c's (Rafale)?
> 
> Thanks



Yes, it's a pity that Elta refused to work with Cobham for the Mk1A. They likely didn't want to share all the technical data that Cobham would've required for the Elta 2052 to work without any hitch with a Cobham radome. We have seen similar problems with MBDA refusing to share Meteor technical data with Elta to allow the Meteor to be integrated with the Mk1A's Elta 2052 AESA. 

Su-30s already have a datalink between them which apparently is extremely useful. That is per a former senior Su-30MKI pilot. ODL will help bring other IAF fighters into the same datalink so they can share images, target data, HMS (Health Monitoring System) data, etc. with AWACS, IACCS on the ground, UAVs and other fighters in the air. SDR is being implemented on Su-30s, Jaguars and ALH as of now. About 500 SDR sets have been ordered. Tejas Mk1A is to get the SDRs as well.


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## MirageBlue

One of the most accurate and well done CG renderings of the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. Currently in the Detailed Design phase. Metal cutting on the first Production Standard prototype was meant to begin by February next year, although this Covid-19 crisis might add some schedule delay.

Size, weights, payload and thrust are all in Mirage-2000 category.







A few more images, all courtesy of Kuntal Biswas.

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## Hephaestus

MirageBlue said:


> If you make your opinions of people based on how good their English is or how smart they look, then that speaks more about you than the others.


Very valid point Sir.


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## Aswaklanta D

But how they read higher technology books and articles. All those books in English, so means they cannot read or understand them.so they cannot learn good. 
Russians, Europeans, Chinese and Japanese have translated all higher study books in there language. So cannot compare.
Also want to say that I am not lieing, chief say that mwf will be flying in 2021 end or 2022 beginning.
Please listen after 1:30 in this video of drdo.




I hope they do it in time this time and not late like always.

Also I do not know anything about this technologies, so I can make mistake in understanding. So asking.


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## MirageBlue

Aswaklanta D said:


> But how they read higher technology books and articles. All those books in English, so means they cannot read or understand them.so they cannot learn good.
> Russians, Europeans, Chinese and Japanese have translated all higher study books in there language. So cannot compare.
> Also want to say that I am not lieing, chief say that mwf will be flying in 2021 end or 2022 beginning.
> Please listen after 1:30 in this video of drdo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they do it in time this time and not late like always.
> 
> Also I do not know anything about this technologies, so I can make mistake in understanding. So asking.



I saw that video when it first came out during Aero India 2019. And that timeline has changed, with the first prototype metal cutting to begin in early 2021. 

Let me give you an example to make you understand why one doesn't need to be extremely fluent in English to be an Engineer. I was in Engineering college and lots of boys and girls that went to the local vernacular schools were also coming in for engineering BE course. They had given their 12th board exams in the vernacular language but knew most of the English words for scientific terms. But they struggled the first year with having to grasp engineering fundamentals in English since they were not at all used to studying in English. By the second year they were improving and third year onwards, they were all almost on par. 

Because they're not reading Literature- they're learning Science and Engineering, which requires more of a grasp of those terms. Advanced engineering books don't have poetry or literature in them to make it hard. One needs to have the fundamentals of engineering and science to be able to grasp those; the English is pretty basic otherwise. If you open an Advanced engineering book, it will be filled with theory and examples, all of which a MA graduate won't understand head or tail of, but an Engineering graduate in that field may even if his English isn't great.

Some of the brightest guys in my college group are from those vernacular schools. Even to date their English isn't the best, but only an idiot would think that they're not good in their fields.

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## Aswaklanta D

You are calling me bad name many times. But I keep respectful.
First you say I lieing, then when I show you video, you saying date changed. Look ada chief say that in video.i believe him or you.
Then you say I am stupid, I may not understand engineering. But I understand that all higher study books have explanations and person with bad English cannot learn good. Maybe that is reason behind there bad performance in tejas.
Then you make fun because I am studying MA. Ok I am not intelligent. 
Yes you are very intelligent, working in aerospace.
But why go USA, if so intelligent. Why not come here and work.

I just download pdf book-fundamentals of aerospace engineering, manuel soler. 
And after seeing it. More than 50percent is literature only explanation. Now who is lier. 
Anyone want to know please download it, it is free.

https://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=11098


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## amardeep mishra

MirageBlue said:


> I saw that video when it first came out during Aero India 2019. And that timeline has changed, with the first prototype metal cutting to begin in early 2021.
> 
> Let me give you an example to make you understand why one doesn't need to be extremely fluent in English to be an Engineer. I was in Engineering college and lots of boys and girls that went to the local vernacular schools were also coming in for engineering BE course. They had given their 12th board exams in the vernacular language but knew most of the English words for scientific terms. But they struggled the first year with having to grasp engineering fundamentals in English since they were not at all used to studying in English. By the second year they were improving and third year onwards, they were all almost on par.
> 
> Because they're not reading Literature- they're learning Science and Engineering, which requires more of a grasp of those terms. Advanced engineering books don't have poetry or literature in them to make it hard. One needs to have the fundamentals of engineering and science to be able to grasp those; the English is pretty basic otherwise. If you open an Advanced engineering book, it will be filled with theory and examples, all of which a MA graduate won't understand head or tail of, but an Engineering graduate in that field may even if his English isn't great.
> 
> Some of the brightest guys in my college group are from those vernacular schools. Even to date their English isn't the best, but only an idiot would think that they're not good in their fields.


Hi!
Dont waste your time explaining it to people who lack the ability to grasp technical stuff. The other guy you've been explaining to, I hate to say, is downright . I mean he clearly DOES NOT understand and it is plain foolishness to waste your time and efforts on someone who does not understand a thing yet have "opinions". 

Also, I beg to differ a bit, one may not require fluency in English to understand basic concepts etc. However in order to absorb research papers and produce one, you are expected to have decent English language skills. It is this culture of publishing papers in top notch Journals that is vital to the organic growth of aerospace research in this country.


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## namefield_empty

MirageBlue said:


> I was in Engineering college and lots of boys and girls that went to the local vernacular schools were also coming in for engineering BE course. They had given their 12th board exams in the vernacular language but knew most of the English words for scientific terms. But they struggled the first year with having to grasp engineering fundamentals in English since they were not at all used to studying in English. By the second year they were improving and third year onwards, they were all almost on par.


Very well said, this is true not only for engineering but also in other professions like medical science and other applied sciences vocations. Only a working knowledge of English is required and most vernacular medium students catch up with their English medium peers within the first two years or so, and many of them ace their exams with better marks and end up with more lucrative jobs than their _angrezi medium _buddies.


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## Aswaklanta D

Ki koi ase dada. Apuni sauk sun pdf book khn. Ihote bhl ke abc kbou nejane, mane mur nisina obosta. Ihote ki hisapot bhl kitap pohibo.aru xosa kotha kbo kejonok nu dekhise se apuni amar gawor axomiya medium school pora enekua kiba dangor kaam kora aru tar pisot enekua botola ingraji kua. Hoi manisu kisumane pohibo pare kintu kbo taan pai, kintu video tut thaka kejn tenekua jn loga nai.

Also want to say this is discussion forum, so we only respectfully discussing. I already say that I don't understand many things here. But just because I don't understand engineering, it not mean someone can become good engineer with bad English.
Also we Indian, if people who don't know anything can vote and make king from opinion then what problem if have opinion on this subject.

Also thank you amardeep misra. I also don't think Making fighter is basic. It hi tech.

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## namefield_empty

Aswaklanta D said:


> Ki koi ase dada. Apuni sauk sun pdf book khn. Ihote bhl ke abc kbou nejane, mane mur nisina obosta. Ihote ki hisapot bhl kitap pohibo.
> 
> Also want to say this is discussion forum, so we only respectfully discussing. I already say that I don't understand many things here. But just because I don't understand engineering, it not mean someone can become good engineer with bad English.
> Also we Indian, if people who don't know anything can vote and make king from opinion then what problem if have opinion on this subject.


Bhaiti, prothomote tumak aru PDF t thoka xokolu oxomia raiz k bohag bihu aru axomiya noboborxho r antorik huvessa jasilu.

Having said that, i haven't gone through the discussion between you and the poster you were responding to and i am not taking sides here.

But i agree with his assertion that some vernacular medium students initially may have troubles in their professional courses but they make up pretty quickly and quite a fewoff them in fact outdo the English medium students . Have first hand experience of countless examples of young kids in my profession over some years now.


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## Aswaklanta D

Axomiya_lora said:


> Bhaiti, prothomote tumak aru PDF t thoka xokolu oxomia raiz k bohag bihu aru axomiya noboborxho r antorik huvessa jasilu.
> 
> Having said that, i haven't gone through the discussion between you and the poster you were responding to and i am not taking sides here.
> 
> But i agree with his assertion that some vernacular medium students initially may have troubles in their professional courses but they make up pretty quickly and quite a fewoff them in fact outdo the English medium students . Have first hand experience of countless examples of young kids in my profession over some years now.


Happy rongali bi hu dada. Apunaleu mur antorik xuvessa thakil. 
I am not asking to take sides. I just asking you to tell your opinion. See the video and please tell me how will they learn latest development articles. I actually think they can never read it.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

I think you guys are discussing on wrong topic. When it comes to science you don't need fluent English speaking but 1 needs to know the scientific terminology. Cause same words/ principles are used again and again.
Actually its not the English part that troubles the most guys who quit in the end. It's the Mathematics and Laws of aerodynamics which makes them to run away.
Guys who understand the principles can easily understand the problem just by looking at the equations or diagrams instead of reading lengthy papers. Ofcourse they do read them as well by taking help of dictionary.
My dad used to do that when he was doing his MSc . He came from a village school.

Remember this it's not an air battle. When you are writing papers or reading someone's research you take your time. And if a research is really good scientist spend even 1-2 weeks easily on it and try to find ways to use it in their work for problem solving.


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## Aswaklanta D

Sorry people if I make mistakes in understanding. But I thought it was general rule that to learn advance technology good English is required in india because all books in English. Maybe I am wrong.


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## namefield_empty

Aswaklanta D said:


> Happy rongali bi hu dada. Apunaleu mur antorik xuvessa thakil.
> I am not asking to take sides. I just asking you to tell your opinion. See the video and please tell me how will they learn latest development articles. I actually think they can never read it.


My honest opinion would be that even the most well versed English literature student may struggle to grasp the meaning of certain terminologies used in professional courses, and vice versa when an engineering or a medical graduate would scratch his head deciphering the Miltonic sonnet. Horses for courses, you see, unless one has a keen interest in both. Some of the words used in certain professions aren't English to start with atleast the spoken kind, expecting a layman to understand Latin or old Greek terms without seeking assistance would be a bit of a stretch.

Then there is the question of understanding the basic principles/concepts as others have mentioned.


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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Aswaklanta D said:


> Sorry people if I make mistakes in understanding. But I thought it was general rule that to learn advance technology good English is required in india because all books in English. Maybe I am wrong.


You're half right. To learn advance science you need ok-ok English but brilliant mind. 
You need to understand diff between between 
no English knowledge- some English knowledge

If you have some English ability and can use dictionary than all you need is good imagination and brilliant mind.

Just do a research how many govt school students pass ips and ias exams as compared to English school students you would be surprised. 
I'm not generalizing but people who are good at English r generally not very good. Cause they never have to prove themselves at every corner.
English speaker usually dominated others easily in meeting. I have seen this happening many times. So he gets away with mediocre performance as well.
But ofcourse at highest level it doesn't work. But to reach threat level a non English speaker has to work very hard. 
So next time you meet a scientist whose English is bad give him extra respect, cause he's working extra and has something special in him to reach that spot.


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## Aswaklanta D

Thank you for making me understand. 
Also want to say I only want tejas fighter to be ready and made quickly.


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## MirageBlue

Aswaklanta D said:


> You are calling me bad name many times. But I keep respectful.
> First you say I lieing, then when I show you video, you saying date changed. Look ada chief say that in video.i believe him or you.



That video is from Aero India 2019, where Dr Deodhare said metal cutting was to start in Feb 2020. In Def Expo 2020, it was made clear that metal cutting will start in February 2021, not February 2020. It's not a question of lying, but being informed of the latest facts, which you are not.


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## Arulmozhi Varman

MirageBlue said:


> I saw that video when it first came out during Aero India 2019. And that timeline has changed, with the first prototype metal cutting to begin in early 2021.
> 
> Let me give you an example to make you understand why one doesn't need to be extremely fluent in English to be an Engineer. I was in Engineering college and lots of boys and girls that went to the local vernacular schools were also coming in for engineering BE course. They had given their 12th board exams in the vernacular language but knew most of the English words for scientific terms. But they struggled the first year with having to grasp engineering fundamentals in English since they were not at all used to studying in English. By the second year they were improving and third year onwards, they were all almost on par.
> 
> Because they're not reading Literature- they're learning Science and Engineering, which requires more of a grasp of those terms. Advanced engineering books don't have poetry or literature in them to make it hard. One needs to have the fundamentals of engineering and science to be able to grasp those; the English is pretty basic otherwise. If you open an Advanced engineering book, it will be filled with theory and examples, all of which a MA graduate won't understand head or tail of, but an Engineering graduate in that field may even if his English isn't great.
> 
> Some of the brightest guys in my college group are from those vernacular schools. Even to date their English isn't the best, but only an idiot would think that they're not good in their fields.



I for one, found diploma holders who start in second year of engineering more adept at technical stuffs than us. But people kinda.look down on them. I don't know why. But as you said, they struggled in trying to get to understand English and particularly M3. In third year they aced us in most tech knowledge. Grades are a different thing. Top nine pointer girl in my class couldn't differentiate btw voltage and current.


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## letsrock

Aswaklanta D said:


> Thank you.
> Also wanted to know, why it taking so long.
> We making fighters from long ago.
> In tejas also, many important parts like engine, radar, electronic suite, misiles are imported. They only assembling it to our own airframe.
> Similar thing we been doing for so long with migs and sukhois. If our agencies did not learn anything from all that experience about making indigenous fighter, how can we be sure that they will learn anything here.we paid more money to make sukhois in India, from Russia directly it costs less.
> Mwf will have great weight carrying capacity but again engine not powerful.
> I think if we don't change our agencies, we will be in same position after 10 years.



Change the country - India - then you have a decent chance of doing ok.


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## MirageBlue

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> I for one, found diploma holders who start in second year of engineering more adept at technical stuffs than us. But people kinda.look down on them. I don't know why. But as you said, they struggled in trying to get to understand English and particularly M3. In third year they aced us in most tech knowledge. Grades are a different thing. Top nine pointer girl in my class couldn't differentiate btw voltage and current.



Yes it's true since their practical knowledge is quite good compared to the rest who jump straight to undergraduate engineering from school. Our theoretical knowledge was good but practical skills were poorer. But the Diploma holders had problems with calculus and advanced calculus that was a part of some subjects. It seems that they didn't get those fundamentals during their diploma classes. 

Anyway, the point is clear- don't judge a book by it's cover. Unless you're Umar Akmal, then don't judge a cover by it's book.


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## MirageBlue

from HAL TP, Grp Cpt (Retd) HV Thakur's Twitter 







No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets' will be the next Tejas Mk1 squadron. One of the IAF's most prestigious squadrons, with the only PVC awardee. 

The Tejas Mk1A contract is approved but procedural delays may push the contract signature by a couple of months. Meanwhile, the Mk1A development continues- the cockpit is finalized and getting ready. 



> LCA Mk-1A cockpit is finalized and getting ready. 3-Smart-MFD glass cockpit. Contract is finalised. It'll get signed in a couple of months, subject to procedural delays only.


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## Lord Of Gondor



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## Secularindian




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## FuturePAF

Appears to be some elements that limit the design, which maybe why the IAF Originally rejected it, and only accepted for political reasons
https://youtu.be/adr6-vKQ-74


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## Haris Ali2140

There are always some trade offs.

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## Kompromat

World's best fighter jet.


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## rockstarIN

IAF do order 83+40 LCAs as if now.

Meanwhile what this video from the same source

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## SABRE

FuturePAF said:


> Appears to be some elements that limit the design, which maybe why the IAF Originally rejected it, *and only accepted for political reasons*



Some countries have military-industrial-complex. India is one of the few countries to have politico-industrial complex. State-owned military industries in India are quite influential with civilian political authority. It would be no surprise that Tejas is being inducted at the behest of HAL.


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## Deino

*Is this really necessary in the PAF section? We have a dedicated Tejas thread in the IAF section, but here it will lead top nothing but the same old stupid discussions   ...*

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## Azadkashmir

basically if you are looking to become a microwaved samosa then buy tejas.


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## Ultima Thule

Is this related to PAF well this should merge with TEJAS thread in Indian defense section @waz @The Eagle @WebMaster PLEASE move this thread into right section thanks


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## bananarepublic

@The Eagle @waz please move it into the relevant sub-forum

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> *Is this really necessary in the PAF section? We have a dedicated Tejas thread in the IAF section, but here it will lead top nothing but the same old stupid discussions   ...*



Sorry, didn't know there was a Tejas section. My mistake


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## Trailer23

FuturePAF said:


> Sorry, didn't know there was a Tejas section. My mistake


You did know there was a Indian Defense section, right?

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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> You did know there was a Indian Defense section, right?



I forgot that existed, oops
I will keep that in mind for future posts of a similar nature

Thanks


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## Path-Finder

FuturePAF said:


> Appears to be some elements that limit the design, which maybe why the IAF Originally rejected it, and only accepted for political reasons


are you a stealth indian? trying to worry us by the induction of the greatest flying machine ever?


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## FuturePAF

Path-Finder said:


> are you a stealth indian? trying to worry us by the induction of the greatest flying machine ever?



HELL NO

Just sharing a video to highlight the weakness of the current Tejas design from an objective third party source

stealth Indian, lol


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## Path-Finder

FuturePAF said:


> HELL NO
> 
> Just sharing a video to highlight the weakness of the current Tejas design from an objective third party source
> 
> stealth Indian, lol


shudder the day it takes off to sortie!the reason why indians didn't pitch this fighter against Pakistan was for only one reason. that is to give Pakistan a level playing field! now that Pakistan got lucky after 27 Feb they are going to unleash it upon us! F22/35 cower before this machine.

we are doomed

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## Bilal9

Path-Finder said:


> shudder the day it takes off to sortie!the reason why indians didn't pitch this fighter against Pakistan was for only one reason. that is to give Pakistan a level playing field! now that Pakistan got lucky after 27 Feb they are going to unleash it upon us! F22/35 cower before this machine.
> 
> we are doomed





You are funny @Path-Finder Sahab.

I have been following the Tejas project for over a decade now - and these 'patriot' Indians still don't get that the Tejas project is one big vacuum sucker for Indian politicians to skim 15% off of every foreign part bought for the project. Then they launched the Kauvery engine project in 1986 - where did that go? Failed after 30 some odd years. Net cost more than half a Billion dollars, legit percentages went to various politicians' pockets though.

It started in the 1950's with Nehru calling over Willi Messerschmitt to design their first fighter - the Marut. That was another project Indian politicians could get rich over, in the name of 'indigenous design'. And they did.

Meanwhile - the Chinese have developed all manner of jet aviation engines, starting with cruise missile sizes to those that power their heavy helicopters and heavy lifters.

More than two dozen Chinese cities boast per capita gdp of over $20,000/year. India is still stuck in the 'Hindu' rate of growth.

Gullibility - thy name is India...



Path-Finder said:


> are you a stealth indian? trying to worry us by the induction of the greatest flying machine ever?



Frenchie looks like he has a day job at the Rafale programme...

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## Path-Finder

Bilal9 said:


> You are funny @Path-Finder Sahab.
> 
> I have been following the Tejas project for over a decade now - and these 'patriot' Indians still don't get that the Tejas project is one big vacuum sucker for Indian politicians to skim 15% off of every foreign part bought for the project. Then they launched the Kauvery engine project in 1986 - where did that go? Failed after 30 some odd years. Net cost more than half a Billion dollars, legit percentages went to various politicians' pockets though.
> 
> It started in the 1950's with Nehru calling over Willi Messerschmitt to design their first fighter - the Marut. That was another project Indian politicians could get rich over, in the name of 'indigenous design'. And they did.
> 
> Meanwhile - the Chinese have developed all manner of jet aviation engines, starting with cruise missile sizes to those that power their heavy helicopters and heavy lifters.
> 
> More than two dozen Chinese cities boast per capita gdp of over $20,000/year. India is still stuck in the 'Hindu' rate of growth.
> 
> Gullibility - thy name is India...


no no no, there are no failures. these are masterstrokes!

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## Nilgiri

FuturePAF said:


> Appears to be some elements that limit the design, which maybe why the IAF Originally rejected it, and only accepted for political reasons



This is actually an excellent summary of what I have discussed with other members when I first joined the forum (iirc).

i.e there was an overall weight + volume penalty on aerodynamics by going this small (compared to the normal size of a light fighter delta).

Thank you for bringing this channel to my attention, I have subbed to it now and will be checking out some of his other analysis.

The part where he finally talks about the wing actually was something I proposed to look into further for PDF using CFD analysis to show the effects of effectively "attaching a canard" to the wing profile w.r.t favourable vortex generation on a small constrained platform.... the threads themselves were fairly interesting context to this:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/roun...than-jf17-to-go-up.419030/page-7#post-8104860

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/discussion-thunder-and-tejas.437724/page-6#post-8437215

@Joe Shearer @Socra @JamD @gambit some old convo resurfacing 

@Signalian @Vergennes @That Guy might also find this interesting.

I never got around to doing it, but looks like this YTuber has...I will be looking at that bit later.

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## Joe Shearer

Bilal9 said:


> You are funny @Path-Finder Sahab.
> 
> I have been following the Tejas project for over a decade now - and these 'patriot' Indians still don't get that the Tejas project is one big vacuum sucker for Indian politicians to skim 15% off of every foreign part bought for the project. Then they launched the Kauvery engine project in 1986 - where did that go? Failed after 30 some odd years. Net cost more than half a Billion dollars, legit percentages went to various politicians' pockets though.
> 
> It started in the 1950's with Nehru calling over Willi Messerschmitt to design their first fighter - the Marut. That was another project Indian politicians could get rich over, in the name of 'indigenous design'. And they did.
> 
> Meanwhile - the Chinese have developed all manner of jet aviation engines, starting with cruise missile sizes to those that power their heavy helicopters and heavy lifters.
> 
> More than two dozen Chinese cities boast per capita gdp of over $20,000/year. India is still stuck in the 'Hindu' rate of growth.
> 
> Gullibility - thy name is India...
> 
> 
> 
> Frenchie looks like he has a day job at the Rafale programme...



<sigh!> Experts, experts everywhere, and not a one that thinks.
_With sincere apologies to Coleridge._

I'm not even going to dissect this note, except to remind our excited young enthusiast that it was Kurt Tank, not Willi Messerschmitt, who was invited to design the the Marut. Think FW 190, not Me 109; yes, I know, just changing the numerals around is no big deal.

Nobody benefited from it, as far as anyone knows.



FuturePAF said:


> Appears to be some elements that limit the design, which maybe why the IAF Originally rejected it, and only accepted for political reasons



The IAF 'rejected' it not because of design flaws - after all, Philip Rajkumar was closely associated with it right through the final days of the programme, and everything that went into the finalisation was known to the IAF - but because of abysmal build quality. I won't go into detail, but there was a huge gap between the design documents and blueprints and the production documents; in short, the 'productionising' was mishandled, and that was a gap in communications between HAL and ADE. Part of it was due to the use of composites; for the first 3 or 4 prototypes, almost every piece was uniquely configured. What was known about converting drawings of metallic parts to parts that could be engineered was not useful in producing these composite parts. 

Without going into detail, there were also difficulties with LRUs, and with the integration of weapons systems with the pilot's controls. That is why the IAF objected to giving the aircraft an IOC and then an FOC. They had no problems with the flying characteristics. None whatever. HAL is still not the right place to manufacture the aircraft, and the sooner it is released to private sector partners to build, the better.

@Nilgiri 

It is true that they are looking at canards for the Mk2 (possibly) and the AMCA (definitely). Why they are doing so has already been discussed to death.

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> Kurt Tank



Was a professor at Madras inst. of tech for a certain student .....Mr. Kalam I believe.



Joe Shearer said:


> Part of it was due to the use of composites; for the first 3 or 4 prototypes, almost every piece was uniquely configured.



Very similar happened with more conventional materials w.r.t USSR with the Tu-160 (and some other notable catch-up-quickly projects). 

All the test originals are pretty different from one another....I've heard some of the series production as well since they wanted to learn on the fly somewhat on what they wanted to settle on for the larger production run (which never happened since the USSR itself ran out of money and collapsed)

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## Srinivas

I do not trust the guy in the video, every fighter jet has its flaws. LCA is based on a doctrine which suits for India perfectly as a point defense fighter, this can also be exported to smaller nations which do not need multi role.
International arms lobby coupled with leftist media outlets are against LCA.

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## Bilal9

Joe Shearer said:


> <sigh!> Experts, experts everywhere, and not a one that thinks.
> _With sincere apologies to Coleridge._
> 
> I'm not even going to dissect this note, except to remind our excited young enthusiast that it was Kurt Tank, not Willi Messerschmitt, who was invited to design the the Marut. Think FW 190, not Me 109; yes, I know, just changing the numerals around is no big deal.
> 
> Nobody benefited from it, as far as anyone knows.



Dada - sincere apologies. Admittedly, a grave faux pas. It is an honor conversing with you. I mean that.

Don't know why I started talking about Messerschmitt. You are absolutely right, and I am wrong. When I spoke about the Marut before I had always quoted Kurt Tank. The Marut held such high hopes for Indian aviation, it was truly sad when funding dried up. 

Yes I do know the difference between FW 190 and ME 109 (purists would still call it BF109 - especially up to Emil versions, before Bavarian Flugzeugwerke was sold to Messerschmitt's firm). To most - the FW 190 was the better fighter of the two, being of later origin.

I meant no disrespect by my comments. But it is glaringly obvious that the Chinese have achieved so much aviation wise in such a short time period.

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## Nilgiri

Srinivas said:


> I do not trust the guy in the video, every fighter jet has its flaws. LCA is based on a doctrine which suits for India perfectly as a point defense fighter, this can also be exported to smaller nations which do not need multi role.
> International arms lobby coupled with leftist media outlets are against LCA.



I personally would have done the project differently, rather than be wedded too much to the size of aircraft, which I believe was frozen quite early in Tejas case (and thus other things evolved/conformed around that with trade-offs).

I would rather have started with an (intended range of) engine class and worked outwards. This would have given more flexbility downstream to achieve final tier performance parameters more readily.

Doing such sensitivity analysis actually is an interesting exercise altogether.

You are right every platform is essentially a balance of trade offs (and hence flaws).

Also I wouldn't speak so harshly of the content creator here. A certain slant on what hes actually saying/critiquing has been put by some members (and I have nothing to add to how @Joe Shearer fact checked that bit)

They strangely didnt realise context of his earlier video:

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## Lord Of Gondor

Tejas is a MiG 21 Bison replacement in the modern world.No need to overthink it.
The fact that the FOC fighters are equipping the most decorated squadron of the IAF speaks for the jet in volumes.
It is also the safest fighter in the IAF.Has brought back every son safely since 2001.
Win in most books.

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## Joe Shearer

Bilal9 said:


> Dada - sincere apologies. Admittedly, a grave faux pas. It is an honor conversing with you. I mean that.
> 
> Don't know why I started talking about Messerschmitt. You are absolutely right, and I am wrong. When I spoke about the Marut before I had always quoted Kurt Tank. The Marut held such high hopes for Indian aviation, it was truly sad when funding dried up.
> 
> Yes I do know the difference between FW 190 and ME 109 (purists would still call it BF109 - especially up to Emil versions, before Bavarian Flugzeugwerke was sold to Messerschmitt's firm). To most - the FW 190 was the better fighter of the two, being of later origin.
> 
> I meant no disrespect by my comments. But it is glaringly obvious that the Chinese have achieved so much aviation wise in such a short time period.



Aare, eto serious kyan? Ektu aadhtu thatta korle dukkho paite hoy

Hope everyone at home is safe.

Ramzan kareem. mubarak.



Nilgiri said:


> I personally would have done the project differently, rather than be wedded too much to the size of aircraft, which I believe was frozen quite early in Tejas case (and thus other things evolved/conformed around that with trade-offs).
> 
> I would rather have started with an (intended range of) engine class and worked outwards. This would have given more flexbility downstream to achieve final tier performance parameters more readily.
> 
> Doing such sensitivity analysis actually is an interesting exercise altogether.
> 
> You are right every platform is essentially a balance of trade offs (and hence flaws).



How I wish our boffins had done that! I can only speculate that the earliest design pulse was driven by a desire to get a Gnat-like creature good enough to match the MiG 21 up and flying. A grave error; they should have started without these preconceived notions. Our coarser-grained north Indian friends (and other friends of similar latitudes and different longitudes) call it gaand masti.

By the time Kota took over, it was too far advanced.



> Also I wouldn't speak so harshly of the content creator here. A certain slant on what hes actually saying/critiquing has been put by some members (and I have nothing to add to how @Joe Shearer fact checked that bit)
> 
> They strangely didnt realise context of his earlier video:



In fact, I thought he'd done a reasonably good job. I'd just seen the video before it was posted in PDF, because I've grown to like this presenter for his sound technical foundation, and was a little taken aback at the way people twisted his presentation, each to his own ends.



Srinivas said:


> I do not trust the guy in the video, every fighter jet has its flaws. LCA is based on a doctrine which suits for India perfectly as a point defense fighter, this can also be exported to smaller nations which do not need multi role.
> International arms lobby coupled with leftist media outlets are against LCA.



True, but look at his other videos. He is very insightful. His not being in sync with my views or with your views or with the views of X, Y or Z is not relevant; somebody, somewhere will be upset.

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## Srinivas

Joe Shearer said:


> True, but look at his other videos. He is very insightful. His not being in sync with my views or with your views or with the views of X, Y or Z is not relevant; somebody, somewhere will be upset.



I am only stressing the point that India is doing sales pitch, LCA fits the doctrine of smaller countries.

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## Joe Shearer

Srinivas said:


> I am only stressing the point that India is doing sales pitch, LCA fits the doctrine of smaller countries.



I agree, but not the present version; from Mk2 onwards, we have a very well-balanced design, able to exploit its light weight and superb flight control system. Also, please don't forget that it needs extensive weaponisation; what is available, is adequate, and what is needed is choice - far more choice.

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## Dash

Joe Shearer said:


> It is true that they are looking at canards for the Mk2 (possibly) and the AMCA (definitely). Why they are doing so has already been discussed to death.



Are you sure they are looking at canard version for AMCA? I havnt seen any report so far of one such design.


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## BL33D

*Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter*

With the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) MMRCA program getting serially delayed and recast more than once, there was a feeling in various quarters that the Tejas Mk2 design should perhaps evolve further than what was initially envisaged to provide an indigenous option for the IAF’s requirements. Thus, the IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) sat down to redefine the Tejas Mk2 with more elaborate modifications such that it could function as a medium weight fighter for ground attack roles while continuing to be nimble in the air to air (A2A) role. In fact, the version of the Tejas Mk2 currently envisaged has been re-badged as the Medium Weight Fighter or (MWF) and is being designed as a replacement for the Mirage 2000 with a view to surpassing its capabilities in almost every respect [13],[14].

The most eye-catching change is the addition of canards. Although, ADA had considered Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) configurations with canards as one the short-selected design concepts back in the 1980s itself, it decided to drop the canards after careful wind tunnel studies. At the time, the advantages offered by the canard configuration were deemed to be minor in comparison to the added complexities of having an extra control surface. After all, this was the first time that a Digital Fly-By-Wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS) was being designed for a fighter within India, let alone a highly unstable one. And SAAB’s experience with the Gripen in the 1990s has shown that this was a wise decision. Instead, ADA went with the iconic double delta wing with lower sweep inboard section.

However, now that a stable and robust flight control system (FCS) has already been designed, tested and validated, the addition of canards is an incremental development which ADA is confident of undertaking. The incorporation of canards also obviates the need to redesign the wing to cater to a shift in the center of lift (CoL) commensurate to a forward shift in the center of gravity (CG), which would invariably happen once the length of the fuselage is increased (more on this later). Instead, using the canards to move the center of lift forward while retaining the old wing seems like an attractive option, given that it also brings with it other aerodynamic advantages . The canards in MWF are positioned below the avionics bay cover, just behind the cockpit. They are in close-coupled configuration and are positioned slightly ahead and above the wing plane for optimal wing-canard interaction. The canards are set at a negative angle and have a slight dihedral angle. Close-coupled canards significantly affect wing aerodynamics on account of their favorable wing-canard interaction and increase lift produced by the wing considerably. Canards help stabilize the wing LE vortices for medium to high Angle of Attack (AoA) by delaying vortex breakdown. In addition, they produce significant lift themselves, further augmenting the total lift produced by the aircraft. Canards also help achieve better area ruling for reduced wave drag. In the air, they can act as extra control surfaces for pitch and directional control, and on the ground, as air-brakes during landing roll. In fact, for MWF, the canards will be used as pitch control surfaces and as air-brakes to reduce landing roll. In contrast, long coupled canards (as seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Rockwell-MBB X-31) are only meant to be control surfaces and they neither contribute significantly to overall lift, nor do they interact strongly with the extant wing aerodynamics.

Canards add lift ahead of the CG, thus increasing requirement for trim force, which in the case of statically unstable tailless delta wings, is achieved by increased downward deflection of the elevons. But this also increases the lift produced by the wings, as the elevons act as flaps in this case. Consequently, with the addition of lift from the canard, increased lift by the wing due to favorable wing-canard interaction and an increase in lift on account of downward elevator deflection at trim, there is a significant increase in the total trim lift produced at any given angle of attack (AoA). As a result, a close-coupled canard delta aircraft can be trimmed at a lower AoA for an equivalent amount of lift as compared to a tailless delta without canards. This leads to lower trim drag and better lift to drag (L/D) ratio across the flight envelope.








Figure 11: Front fuselage section showing Close-Coupled canards adopted for LCA Mk2 (MWF). The front fuselage is elongated by approximately 1.5m using two plugs and has increased height. The width remains same as that in MK1. [2].

In order to overcome the internal space constraints of the Tejas Mk1, MWF has been lengthened to 14.65 m, a sweet spot for a modern single engine multirole fighter. This allows the fighter enough internal volume for carrying the necessary systems, while having enough fuel for the range, endurance and performance requirements. This increase in length is achieved using two plugs, one in the nose, and another behind the cockpit. As both of these plugs are ahead of the wing, the CG shifts forward with respect to the CoL, thereby reducing the static stability margin, or in general terms, the maneuverability of an aircraft. As mentioned above, canards help to compensate for this by shifting the CoL forward proportionally to maintain the same static margin.

The canards also help smooth out the discontinuity in the area ruling curve ahead of the wing that exists for Mk1 (see this). By employing a canard and a fatter spine, MWF no longer needs as bulged a canopy as recommended by earlier studies. While those studies predicted a 6 percent supersonic wave drag resulting in a 20 percent improvement in transonic acceleration and 2 percent improvement in maximum speed, MWF is expected to exhibit even greater transonic and supersonic performance improvements given a near perfect area ruling through the changes such as the addition of a nose plug, elongated and fattened front fuselage, optimized canopy shape and rear fuselage. The canards lower the trim drag across the flight envelope, further enhancing overall aircraft performance. As a matter of fact, MWF is expected to have a top speed of Mach 1.8 in level flight with two close-combat missiles (CCMs), which is a 12.5 percent increase over its existing performance.

The shape of the canard was chosen after carefully studying a variety of geometries. Based on published computational fluid dynamic (CFD) studies, the leading edge (LE) sweep is expected to be equal to 50 degees. At this angle, the LE sweep provides an optimal increase in the lift coefficient with a smooth and desirable linear variation in the pitching coefficient at high AoA regimes. These CFD studies were then confirmed using extensive wind tunnel testing. A 1:10 scale wind tunnel model with canards was displayed at Aero India 2019, one of many configurations considered during the design phase. The canards typically have an adverse impact on the directional stability of an aircraft. The designers of MWF have taken measures to improve the directional stability by increasing the height of the tail fin and other measures. The increased height of tail fin is also necessitated by the elongated fuselage.






Figure 12: A 1:10 scale wind tunnel model of one of many canard configurations tested for MWF design studies.

In summary, a pair of closed coupled canards offer the following advantages to the Tejas Mk2 MWF:


Maintain low wing loading by generating additional lift from canards
Improved wing lift and better aerodynamic stability of wing vortices
Reduced trim drag
Better area ruling for reduction in transonic and supersonic wave drag
Additional control surface for longitudinal control
Allows considerable increase in fuselage length, which is one of the key changes helping MWF completely fulfill the IAF’s original Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR)
Could be used as air brakes during landing reducing landing roll. Canards also help reduce Take-off distance (Short Take-Off and Landing capability)











_Figure 13: CFD Study showing effect of Canard LE sweep angle on overall aerodynamic performance of LCA. A canard with 50° sweep provides optimal lift increase and more desirable pitch moment characteristics in the high AoA regime [3]._

As mentioned earlier, MWF retains the main wing from MK1 with minor modifications. It has the same iconic double delta wing featuring lower sweep angle for the inboard section. In a pure delta wing, the LE vortex, which constitutes a large portion of the total lift, starts forming right from the apex, the point where the wing LE attaches with the fuselage. The lower sweep on the inboard section results in the wing LE vortex forming slightly downstream of the apex. This pushes the CoL slightly aft-ward and helps bring down the static instability to a manageable range. This wing configuration also allows the designers to have a significantly larger wing area for the same LE sweep angle, length of fuselage and static instability margin. Figure 14 shows the blue outline of a pure delta wing which would need to have its apex downstream to maintain the same level of instability. In addition, the leading edge portion of the inboard section is lifted up a bit to provide the required clearance between the air intakes and the lower surface of the wing.






Figure 14: Schematic of LCA Mk1 from ADA Brochure. Blue line represents wing shape for pure Delta wing with same LE sweep of 62.5 degrees and fuselage length. Without the lower sweep inboard section, It would have to start slightly aft of current wing, to maintain same static instability margin.

The aerofoil design, dimensions and the upper interface with the fuselage also show no noticeable changes. On the other hand, the lower wing join shows better wing body blending which should lead to lower interference drag. The wings are moved outboard by 0.15 m each on either side. The wingtips are clipped further to allow the CCM pylons to be added at the wingtips (see figure 14). As a result of these changes, wingspan is increased slightly to 8.6 m. (see figure 13). The wing starts further aft of the cockpit due to the addition of the two fuselage plugs in the front fuselage section. On the other hand, the air intakes have been moved slightly aft, proportional only to the significantly smaller nose plug. This has resulted in a configuration where the intakes are no longer shielded by the wing, as is the case with the Mk1. However, the introduction of the canards should provide this shielding effect which helps straighten and redirect airflow to the intakes during high angle of attack manoeuvres, to some extent.



Recently, some Request for Information (RFI) documents were issued by HAL related to the manufacturing of assembly jigs for the fore, mid and aft fuselage sections of the MWF. Figure 15 shows a composite diagram obtained by joining three sections from the tenders.






_Figure 15: LCA Mk2 fuselage CAD images from reference [3]. Images of the three fuselage sections are scaled correctly and fused together._



Figure 16 shows the above composite CAD image with corrected scale and being compared to an image of the Tejas Mk1. This image allows us to compare the features of MWF with those of Mk1. As stated above, the length of the fuselage has been increased to 14.65 m. The spine is slightly more bulged for better area ruling. The vertical tail sits on a lifted spine, increasing total height by an estimated 0.25 m. The tail itself is expected to be extended by about 0.25 m due to an elongated fuselage. Hence the total height has increased to 4.86 m.






_Figure 16: Comparison of LCA Mk2 (MWF) fuselage CAD image with LCA MK1. Red dotted profile of Mk1 is superimposed on MK2’s fuselage. Approximate measurements highlighting changes in the fuselage length and some key features._

A small strake or leading edge root extension (LERX) has been added ahead of the wing which extends till the point where the wing starts with respect to the cockpit in Mk1 (see Figure 17, side view, below the canards). LERX anchors the LE vortex for the inboard section of the wing which now comes under the influence of the canards. This has a positive impact on the aerodynamic stability of the vortices. The addition of LERX has a positive impact on the wing aerodynamics stability. Coupled with the canards, aerodynamic refinements, and enhanced engine power, the MWF is designed to reach the IAF’s Mk1 ASQR requirement of a sustained turn rate (STR) of 18 degrees per second. The splitter plates as well as the air intakes are canted backwards. The intakes also have a subtle sweep added to them. This is expected to result in optimal shock structure in the local vicinity which would reduce spillage drag at supersonic speeds and result in better intake performance. An improved intake cowl contours and the new 3-door auxiliary intake design will also be incorporated. All these modifications improve intake aerodynamics by improving pressure recovery and better uniformity of the flow at low speed, high Angle of Attack (AoA) regimes. This will lead to augmented thrust and reduced chances of engine stall. The low energy boundary layer flow separated by the splitter plate will be completely redirected under the fuselage now. The slot which redirects some of this air over the wing in MK1 is eliminated in MWF, as smooth flow over the wings behind the canards is desirable. Other drag reduction features in the aft fuselage as envisioned in the original Mk2 design can also be seen on the optimized fuselage of MWF.
_











Figure 17: Medium Weight Fighter, front, rear and port-side views.
_
MWF will be a multirole aircraft capable of carrying R-73 (and possibly ASRAAM and Python 5) CCMs, Derby and Astra BVRs, 250 kg and 500 kg dumb and laser guided bombs, heavy precision glide bombs of standoff ranges, India’s New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile besides lightweight cruise missiles, including SCALP and Brahmos-NG. It will sport an active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar with an integral Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) and a dual colour Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) along with an upgraded glass cockpit with larger MFDs. The Digital Flight Control Computer hardware will be upgraded to the latest standard. Over the years, flight control actuators have been successfully indigenized. MWF will feature these Indian actuators, which is another significant achievement. It will also feature an enhanced Network Centric Warfare capability with seamless integration with various offensive and defensive systems of the Indian Armed Forces. With all these additional capabilities, the MWF represents a multi-fold increase in capability over the Mk1. Any future indigenously developed weapons such as Garuda, Garuthma, SFDR, Rudra-M etc.; sensors/avionics packages such as AESA Radars and some of the key fifth generation technologies such as flush sensors and antennas, radar absorbing materials, sensor fusion and so on will eventually find their way into MWF, keeping it relevant for a long time to come.
_





Table 1: LCA MK2 (MWF) specifications compared with those of LCA MK1, Mirage 2000 and Gripen E (* estimated number).
_
The expected features of MWF are listed in Table 1 above and compared to that of Tejas Mk1, Mirage 2000 and Gripen E. The payload capacity of MWF will be 6.5 tons as compared to the Mk1’s 3.9 tons. To carry this increased payload, the number of pylons have been increased from 8 to 11. The gun has been moved to a shoulder mounted position which has freed up space below the right intake for an additional pylon. Each wing also features four stations instead of the current three. ADA is also developing multi-rack pylons for carrying two BVR AAMs. The addition of the nose plug has also afforded space for an infra-red search and track (IRST) system, and the fuselage plugs facilitate the availability of space for an internal self-protection jammer and significantly higher internal fuel. Cumulatively, these changes not only enhance mission capability of the aircraft, but add greatly to its flexibility. What is more, MWF brochure indicates that all this additional capability comes with no additional empty weight. This optimistic estimate probably arises from the optimization of airframe structures in the second design iteration of LCA. Realistically though, some increase in the empty weight can be expected. Even with some weight gain, MWF will retain its exceptionally low wing loading. With this low wing loading, increased T/W ratio owing to its more powerful engines and optimized airframe for wave drag and enhanced manoeuvrability on account of canards, MWF is expected to achieve all the performance parameters specified by 1985 ASQR.
_











Figure 18: Schematics published by ADA during Aero India 2019, showing various aspects of the Medium Weight Fighter’s Capabilities and features._

While ADA is busy with the design of MWF, HAL has already embarked on design and development of manufacturing jigs for MWF. This is an indication that the MWF design is already in an advance stage. Metal cutting for first MWF is expected in a few months. ADA is sanguine on first flight of MWF by end of 2021 or early 2022. A total of four prototype aircrafts are planned for the flight test program. However, these 4 aircrafts will be production standard aircrafts, unlike LCA MK1 which saw the evolution through technology demonstrator, prototype vehicle and limited series production stages before serial production was taken up. This an indication of the increased maturity in the team vis-à-vis design and manufacturing capability as well as project management. In other words, the production of MWF will continue in the background as the flight test program is put through its paces.

On the manufacturing side, ADA and HAL are working on bringing next generation processes and technologies in the manufacturing of the MWF. Currently, the entire LCA Mk1 airframe structure is first assembled and then all LRUs, electric looms, piping and so on are fitted in an equipping stage. This is a serial process which takes up a significant amount of time. Instead, for MWF, ADA is working on a modular concept in which electric looms, piping, and connectors are terminated at sub-assembly interfaces with appropriate interconnectors [18]. All the major sub-assemblies namely the three fuselage sections, wings, and the fin are also being designed with this modular approach in mind. Four Tier-1 suppliers have already been identified to take up these high-level sub-assemblies. These high level sub-assemblies are further subdivided into modular sub-sub-assemblies and so on. These, in turn which will be outsourced to Tier-2/3 suppliers. The assembly will take place using a ‘jig-less’ assembly process [3]. In this approach, the jigs are modular by design and have more versatility to adapt to any changes in the build standard of the aircraft. Such jigs can also be repurposed for a completely different assembly process in the future when required. Since the jig-less assembly approach does away with the conventional locating function, more automated operations such as robotic holes drilling are expected to be introduced in the assembly process. This approach could enable the Tier-1 suppliers to supply fully equipped sub-assembly modules to HAL. HAL can then simply connect these sub-assemblies using the interconnectors to quickly arrive at the final product, significantly reducing the final assembly time. With all these changes, HAL is confident of producing MWF at the rate of 24 aircraft per year from the currently existing two assembly lines. As of today, the Indian Air Force has given a letter of intent for 200 MWF. IAF is planning to replace its medium weight Mirage 2000, Jaguars and MiG29 fleets with MWF, in the coming decade.

Every successful fighter aircraft till date has evolved over many tranches and iterations to reach its final optimized version. The process of development itself leads to an increase in the knowledge and confidence of the designers and the associated manufacturing group. This allows the shortening of development time of not only the next iteration of the aircraft, but also for next generation aircraft as well. The Tejas story is no exception to this fundamental fact and on its shoulders stand the development of India’s future generation of fighter aircraft. Therefore, the evolution of the Tejas can rightly be called the evolution of India’s fighter aircraft industry.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...ows-a-pair-becomes-the-medium-weight-fighter/

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## That Guy

Nilgiri said:


> This is actually an excellent summary of what I have discussed with other members when I first joined the forum (iirc).
> 
> i.e there was an overall weight + volume penalty on aerodynamics by going this small (compared to the normal size of a light fighter delta).
> 
> Thank you for bringing this channel to my attention, I have subbed to it now and will be checking out some of his other analysis.
> 
> The part where he finally talks about the wing actually was something I proposed to look into further for PDF using CFD analysis to show the effects of effectively "attaching a canard" to the wing profile w.r.t favourable vortex generation on a small constrained platform.... the threads themselves were fairly interesting context to this:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/roun...than-jf17-to-go-up.419030/page-7#post-8104860
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/discussion-thunder-and-tejas.437724/page-6#post-8437215
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Socra @JamD @gambit some old convo resurfacing
> 
> @Signalian @Vergennes @That Guy might also find this interesting.
> 
> I never got around to doing it, but looks like this YTuber has...I will be looking at that bit later.


It certainly is interesting. Though, if I'm honest, a lot of what's being said probably went over my head, as I know very little about fighter jets.

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## Bilal9

Joe Shearer said:


> Aare, eto serious kyan? Ektu aadhtu thatta korle dukkho paite hoy
> 
> Hope everyone at home is safe.
> 
> Ramzan kareem. mubarak.



Yes they are - Thanks. 

Ramzan is different this year - that is certain. A time of restraint and even deeper introspection...

Wishing the same for your family and relations.

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## no smoking

BL33D said:


> *Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter*
> .....
> 
> _
> View attachment 627575
> _
> 
> _Table 1: LCA MK2 (MWF) specifications compared with those of LCA MK1, Mirage 2000 and Gripen E (* estimated number)._
> 
> ....
> 
> http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...ows-a-pair-becomes-the-medium-weight-fighter/



A quick question: How come the LCA MK2 is 40kg lighter than LCA Mk1 when MK2 is 1.45 meter longer with more hard points and heavier engine? Did Indian scientists invent something super material?


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## Joe Shearer

That Guy said:


> It certainly is interesting. Though, if I'm honest, a lot of what's being said probably went over my head, as I know very little about fighter jets.



Don't talk yourself out of a slow, careful read; stick with it.

If I could summarise the article, at the risk of incurring the serious displeasure of CFD cats like Nilgiri who earn obscene sums of money out of computer simulations of - oh, this, that and the other, shall we say? - this is what it is:

When they (ADA, HAL) were looking hard at the original design of the Tejas, the flying Mk 1, there was such a lot of noise about the in-between fighter, the medium-weight multi-role aircraft that was supposed to slot in between the light point interceptor that the Tejas was intended to be, and the monstrous bouncer in the bar SU 30 MKI. They decided to tweak the design just a little bit more, and approximate what the Air Force wanted in the medium weight aircraft.
They did this by lengthening the plane, and adding close-coupled canards. Note the close-coupled; this means that the canards do two things - they significantly work with other design features to increase lift, WITHOUT adding drag, and they also offer an additional control surface, that helps with manoeuvrability. Other planes that use canards but use loose-coupled, or long-coupled canards, don't get the additional lift, just the manoeuvrability (the Eurofighter Typhoon is an example).
Lengthening the plane was done by adding two extra sections (they've called these plugs) to the fuselage, both ahead of the wing-root, so both keeping the point of balance forward.
So if we get additional lift, without additional drag, that means that if the weight does not increase significantly, and the engine thrust is the same. the thrust to weight is greater, making for a faster aircraft and a more manoeuvrable one.
We also get to carry more weight, so more air to air missiles, more ground attack missiles, more stand-off missiles - in short, you get a whole new set of pyrotechnics. So they looked smug and added hard points.
I hope this makes better sense now.



no smoking said:


> A quick question: How come the LCA MK2 is 40kg lighter than LCA Mk1 when MK2 is 1.45 meter longer with more hard points and heavier engine? Did Indian scientists invent something super material?



No need to be sarcastic; all that does is to show that you haven't bothered to read carefully, but just skimmed through to catch something to go 'Gotcha!' with. Not very impressive, just another ill-mannered fan boy.

Read this, please:

_What is more, MWF brochure indicates that all this additional capability comes with no additional empty weight. This optimistic estimate probably arises from the optimization of airframe structures in the second design iteration of LCA. Realistically though, some increase in the empty weight can be expected. Even with some weight gain, MWF will retain its exceptionally low wing loading. _

There is no weight penalty expected between the F404 and the F414 that cannot be compensated by optimising the structure.

That should be clear enough. If any further clarification is needed, do feel free to ask, but without the smug sarcasm.

@Nilgiri

I've dropped you into the deep end, now everyone will be trying to find out what you do to earn your filthy lucre. What's a friend for, other than placing a hand at a strategic location on your back, and exerting a precisely-calculated amount of pressure at the exact moment of transition from balance to imbalance?

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> Don't talk yourself out of a slow, careful read; stick with it.
> 
> If I could summarise the article, at the risk of incurring the serious displeasure of CFD cats like Nilgiri who earn obscene sums of money out of computer simulations of - oh, this, that and the other, shall we say? - this is what it is:
> 
> When they (ADA, HAL) were looking hard at the original design of the Tejas, the flying Mk 1, there was such a lot of noise about the in-between fighter, the medium-weight multi-role aircraft that was supposed to slot in between the light point interceptor that the Tejas was intended to be, and the monstrous bouncer in the bar SU 30 MKI. They decided to tweak the design just a little bit more, and approximate what the Air Force wanted in the medium weight aircraft.
> They did this by lengthening the plane, and adding close-coupled canards. Note the close-coupled; this means that the canards do two things - they significantly work with other design features to increase lift, WITHOUT adding drag, and they also offer an additional control surface, that helps with manoeuvrability. Other planes that use canards but use loose-coupled, or long-coupled canards, don't get the additional lift, just the manoeuvrability (the Eurofighter Typhoon is an example).
> Lengthening the plane was done by adding two extra sections (they've called these plugs) to the fuselage, both ahead of the wing-root, so both keeping the point of balance forward.
> So if we get additional lift, without additional drag, that means that if the weight does not increase significantly, and the engine thrust is the same. the thrust to weight is greater, making for a faster aircraft and a more manoeuvrable one.
> We also get to carry more weight, so more air to air missiles, more ground attack missiles, more stand-off missiles - in short, you get a whole new set of pyrotechnics. So they looked smug and added hard points.
> I hope this makes better sense now.
> 
> 
> 
> No need to be sarcastic; all that does is to show that you haven't bothered to read carefully, but just skimmed through to catch something to go 'Gotcha!' with. Not very impressive, just another ill-mannered fan boy.
> 
> Read this, please:
> 
> _What is more, MWF brochure indicates that all this additional capability comes with no additional empty weight. This optimistic estimate probably arises from the optimization of airframe structures in the second design iteration of LCA. Realistically though, some increase in the empty weight can be expected. Even with some weight gain, MWF will retain its exceptionally low wing loading. _
> 
> There is no weight penalty expected between the F404 and the F414 that cannot be compensated by optimising the structure.
> 
> That should be clear enough. If any further clarification is needed, do feel free to ask, but without the smug sarcasm.
> 
> @Nilgiri
> 
> I've dropped you into the deep end, now everyone will be trying to find out what you do to earn your filthy lucre. What's a friend for, other than placing a hand at a strategic location on your back, and exerting a precisely-calculated amount of pressure at the exact moment of transition from balance to imbalance?



Lot of people believe/assume things get simply scaled "as is"...so the volume/mass have to automatically increase 3rd power exponentially when you change length .

In fact us engineers in this field look at something way before the total weight increase/decrease...the "where" is so much more important for an aircraft. "Balance" indeed hehe.

The largest case study given to me for this was how the (both large and supersonic capable) concorde adjusted its fuel placement (quite drastically) throughout the duration of a typical flight given how lift vector changes position during the subsonic to transonic and then supersonic. 

Same overall concept always applies in any aviation example concerning weight more generally...be it dry mass or wet mass.

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## MirageBlue

no smoking said:


> A quick question: How come the LCA MK2 is 40kg lighter than LCA Mk1 when MK2 is 1.45 meter longer with more hard points and heavier engine? Did Indian scientists invent something super material?



It's a mistake. 

The LCA Mk1 is ~6500-6600 kgs empty weight
The LCA Mk2 (MWF) target empty weight as per the info released at Def Expo 2020 is ~7800 kgs. 

The reason I say 'target' empty weight is because as we've seen with the Gripen NG program that eventually became the Gripen E/F program, the final empty weight can be higher. The Gripen NG was advertised as having an empty weight of 7000 or 7200 kgs. When it was actually developed as a production fighter, the new empty weight came out as 8000 kgs.



Dash said:


> Are you sure they are looking at canard version for AMCA? I havnt seen any report so far of one such design.



No canards for the AMCA. That's for sure. Trapezoidal wing with large stabilizers is the configuration chosen.

However, we don't know yet what the concept studies for the TEDBF will result in;

1) TEDBF with close-coupled canard and delta wing like the MWF
2) TEDBF with delta wing and stabilators like the single engined N-LCA Mk2 (which was dropped for the TEDBF)
3) TEBDF with delta wing and LEVCONs (like the N-LCA Mk1)





Tejas twin seater in front of Mehrangarh fortress, Jodhpur.





Tejas twin seater in front of Umaid Bhavan, Jodhpur

Image credit Deb Rana

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

BL33D said:


> *Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter*
> 
> With the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) MMRCA program getting serially delayed and recast more than once, there was a feeling in various quarters that the Tejas Mk2 design should perhaps evolve further than what was initially envisaged to provide an indigenous option for the IAF’s requirements. Thus, the IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) sat down to redefine the Tejas Mk2 with more elaborate modifications such that it could function as a medium weight fighter for ground attack roles while continuing to be nimble in the air to air (A2A) role. In fact, the version of the Tejas Mk2 currently envisaged has been re-badged as the Medium Weight Fighter or (MWF) and is being designed as a replacement for the Mirage 2000 with a view to surpassing its capabilities in almost every respect [13],[14].
> 
> The most eye-catching change is the addition of canards. Although, ADA had considered Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) configurations with canards as one the short-selected design concepts back in the 1980s itself, it decided to drop the canards after careful wind tunnel studies. At the time, the advantages offered by the canard configuration were deemed to be minor in comparison to the added complexities of having an extra control surface. After all, this was the first time that a Digital Fly-By-Wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS) was being designed for a fighter within India, let alone a highly unstable one. And SAAB’s experience with the Gripen in the 1990s has shown that this was a wise decision. Instead, ADA went with the iconic double delta wing with lower sweep inboard section.
> 
> However, now that a stable and robust flight control system (FCS) has already been designed, tested and validated, the addition of canards is an incremental development which ADA is confident of undertaking. The incorporation of canards also obviates the need to redesign the wing to cater to a shift in the center of lift (CoL) commensurate to a forward shift in the center of gravity (CG), which would invariably happen once the length of the fuselage is increased (more on this later). Instead, using the canards to move the center of lift forward while retaining the old wing seems like an attractive option, given that it also brings with it other aerodynamic advantages . The canards in MWF are positioned below the avionics bay cover, just behind the cockpit. They are in close-coupled configuration and are positioned slightly ahead and above the wing plane for optimal wing-canard interaction. The canards are set at a negative angle and have a slight dihedral angle. Close-coupled canards significantly affect wing aerodynamics on account of their favorable wing-canard interaction and increase lift produced by the wing considerably. Canards help stabilize the wing LE vortices for medium to high Angle of Attack (AoA) by delaying vortex breakdown. In addition, they produce significant lift themselves, further augmenting the total lift produced by the aircraft. Canards also help achieve better area ruling for reduced wave drag. In the air, they can act as extra control surfaces for pitch and directional control, and on the ground, as air-brakes during landing roll. In fact, for MWF, the canards will be used as pitch control surfaces and as air-brakes to reduce landing roll. In contrast, long coupled canards (as seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Rockwell-MBB X-31) are only meant to be control surfaces and they neither contribute significantly to overall lift, nor do they interact strongly with the extant wing aerodynamics.
> 
> Canards add lift ahead of the CG, thus increasing requirement for trim force, which in the case of statically unstable tailless delta wings, is achieved by increased downward deflection of the elevons. But this also increases the lift produced by the wings, as the elevons act as flaps in this case. Consequently, with the addition of lift from the canard, increased lift by the wing due to favorable wing-canard interaction and an increase in lift on account of downward elevator deflection at trim, there is a significant increase in the total trim lift produced at any given angle of attack (AoA). As a result, a close-coupled canard delta aircraft can be trimmed at a lower AoA for an equivalent amount of lift as compared to a tailless delta without canards. This leads to lower trim drag and better lift to drag (L/D) ratio across the flight envelope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 11: Front fuselage section showing Close-Coupled canards adopted for LCA Mk2 (MWF). The front fuselage is elongated by approximately 1.5m using two plugs and has increased height. The width remains same as that in MK1. [2].
> 
> In order to overcome the internal space constraints of the Tejas Mk1, MWF has been lengthened to 14.65 m, a sweet spot for a modern single engine multirole fighter. This allows the fighter enough internal volume for carrying the necessary systems, while having enough fuel for the range, endurance and performance requirements. This increase in length is achieved using two plugs, one in the nose, and another behind the cockpit. As both of these plugs are ahead of the wing, the CG shifts forward with respect to the CoL, thereby reducing the static stability margin, or in general terms, the maneuverability of an aircraft. As mentioned above, canards help to compensate for this by shifting the CoL forward proportionally to maintain the same static margin.
> 
> The canards also help smooth out the discontinuity in the area ruling curve ahead of the wing that exists for Mk1 (see this). By employing a canard and a fatter spine, MWF no longer needs as bulged a canopy as recommended by earlier studies. While those studies predicted a 6 percent supersonic wave drag resulting in a 20 percent improvement in transonic acceleration and 2 percent improvement in maximum speed, MWF is expected to exhibit even greater transonic and supersonic performance improvements given a near perfect area ruling through the changes such as the addition of a nose plug, elongated and fattened front fuselage, optimized canopy shape and rear fuselage. The canards lower the trim drag across the flight envelope, further enhancing overall aircraft performance. As a matter of fact, MWF is expected to have a top speed of Mach 1.8 in level flight with two close-combat missiles (CCMs), which is a 12.5 percent increase over its existing performance.
> 
> The shape of the canard was chosen after carefully studying a variety of geometries. Based on published computational fluid dynamic (CFD) studies, the leading edge (LE) sweep is expected to be equal to 50 degees. At this angle, the LE sweep provides an optimal increase in the lift coefficient with a smooth and desirable linear variation in the pitching coefficient at high AoA regimes. These CFD studies were then confirmed using extensive wind tunnel testing. A 1:10 scale wind tunnel model with canards was displayed at Aero India 2019, one of many configurations considered during the design phase. The canards typically have an adverse impact on the directional stability of an aircraft. The designers of MWF have taken measures to improve the directional stability by increasing the height of the tail fin and other measures. The increased height of tail fin is also necessitated by the elongated fuselage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 12: A 1:10 scale wind tunnel model of one of many canard configurations tested for MWF design studies.
> 
> In summary, a pair of closed coupled canards offer the following advantages to the Tejas Mk2 MWF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maintain low wing loading by generating additional lift from canards
> 
> Improved wing lift and better aerodynamic stability of wing vortices
> 
> Reduced trim drag
> 
> Better area ruling for reduction in transonic and supersonic wave drag
> 
> Additional control surface for longitudinal control
> 
> Allows considerable increase in fuselage length, which is one of the key changes helping MWF completely fulfill the IAF’s original Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR)
> 
> Could be used as air brakes during landing reducing landing roll. Canards also help reduce Take-off distance (Short Take-Off and Landing capability)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Figure 13: CFD Study showing effect of Canard LE sweep angle on overall aerodynamic performance of LCA. A canard with 50° sweep provides optimal lift increase and more desirable pitch moment characteristics in the high AoA regime [3]._
> 
> As mentioned earlier, MWF retains the main wing from MK1 with minor modifications. It has the same iconic double delta wing featuring lower sweep angle for the inboard section. In a pure delta wing, the LE vortex, which constitutes a large portion of the total lift, starts forming right from the apex, the point where the wing LE attaches with the fuselage. The lower sweep on the inboard section results in the wing LE vortex forming slightly downstream of the apex. This pushes the CoL slightly aft-ward and helps bring down the static instability to a manageable range. This wing configuration also allows the designers to have a significantly larger wing area for the same LE sweep angle, length of fuselage and static instability margin. Figure 14 shows the blue outline of a pure delta wing which would need to have its apex downstream to maintain the same level of instability. In addition, the leading edge portion of the inboard section is lifted up a bit to provide the required clearance between the air intakes and the lower surface of the wing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 14: Schematic of LCA Mk1 from ADA Brochure. Blue line represents wing shape for pure Delta wing with same LE sweep of 62.5 degrees and fuselage length. Without the lower sweep inboard section, It would have to start slightly aft of current wing, to maintain same static instability margin.
> 
> The aerofoil design, dimensions and the upper interface with the fuselage also show no noticeable changes. On the other hand, the lower wing join shows better wing body blending which should lead to lower interference drag. The wings are moved outboard by 0.15 m each on either side. The wingtips are clipped further to allow the CCM pylons to be added at the wingtips (see figure 14). As a result of these changes, wingspan is increased slightly to 8.6 m. (see figure 13). The wing starts further aft of the cockpit due to the addition of the two fuselage plugs in the front fuselage section. On the other hand, the air intakes have been moved slightly aft, proportional only to the significantly smaller nose plug. This has resulted in a configuration where the intakes are no longer shielded by the wing, as is the case with the Mk1. However, the introduction of the canards should provide this shielding effect which helps straighten and redirect airflow to the intakes during high angle of attack manoeuvres, to some extent.
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, some Request for Information (RFI) documents were issued by HAL related to the manufacturing of assembly jigs for the fore, mid and aft fuselage sections of the MWF. Figure 15 shows a composite diagram obtained by joining three sections from the tenders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Figure 15: LCA Mk2 fuselage CAD images from reference [3]. Images of the three fuselage sections are scaled correctly and fused together._
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 16 shows the above composite CAD image with corrected scale and being compared to an image of the Tejas Mk1. This image allows us to compare the features of MWF with those of Mk1. As stated above, the length of the fuselage has been increased to 14.65 m. The spine is slightly more bulged for better area ruling. The vertical tail sits on a lifted spine, increasing total height by an estimated 0.25 m. The tail itself is expected to be extended by about 0.25 m due to an elongated fuselage. Hence the total height has increased to 4.86 m.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Figure 16: Comparison of LCA Mk2 (MWF) fuselage CAD image with LCA MK1. Red dotted profile of Mk1 is superimposed on MK2’s fuselage. Approximate measurements highlighting changes in the fuselage length and some key features._
> 
> A small strake or leading edge root extension (LERX) has been added ahead of the wing which extends till the point where the wing starts with respect to the cockpit in Mk1 (see Figure 17, side view, below the canards). LERX anchors the LE vortex for the inboard section of the wing which now comes under the influence of the canards. This has a positive impact on the aerodynamic stability of the vortices. The addition of LERX has a positive impact on the wing aerodynamics stability. Coupled with the canards, aerodynamic refinements, and enhanced engine power, the MWF is designed to reach the IAF’s Mk1 ASQR requirement of a sustained turn rate (STR) of 18 degrees per second. The splitter plates as well as the air intakes are canted backwards. The intakes also have a subtle sweep added to them. This is expected to result in optimal shock structure in the local vicinity which would reduce spillage drag at supersonic speeds and result in better intake performance. An improved intake cowl contours and the new 3-door auxiliary intake design will also be incorporated. All these modifications improve intake aerodynamics by improving pressure recovery and better uniformity of the flow at low speed, high Angle of Attack (AoA) regimes. This will lead to augmented thrust and reduced chances of engine stall. The low energy boundary layer flow separated by the splitter plate will be completely redirected under the fuselage now. The slot which redirects some of this air over the wing in MK1 is eliminated in MWF, as smooth flow over the wings behind the canards is desirable. Other drag reduction features in the aft fuselage as envisioned in the original Mk2 design can also be seen on the optimized fuselage of MWF.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> _Figure 17: Medium Weight Fighter, front, rear and port-side views._
> 
> MWF will be a multirole aircraft capable of carrying R-73 (and possibly ASRAAM and Python 5) CCMs, Derby and Astra BVRs, 250 kg and 500 kg dumb and laser guided bombs, heavy precision glide bombs of standoff ranges, India’s New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile besides lightweight cruise missiles, including SCALP and Brahmos-NG. It will sport an active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar with an integral Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) and a dual colour Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) along with an upgraded glass cockpit with larger MFDs. The Digital Flight Control Computer hardware will be upgraded to the latest standard. Over the years, flight control actuators have been successfully indigenized. MWF will feature these Indian actuators, which is another significant achievement. It will also feature an enhanced Network Centric Warfare capability with seamless integration with various offensive and defensive systems of the Indian Armed Forces. With all these additional capabilities, the MWF represents a multi-fold increase in capability over the Mk1. Any future indigenously developed weapons such as Garuda, Garuthma, SFDR, Rudra-M etc.; sensors/avionics packages such as AESA Radars and some of the key fifth generation technologies such as flush sensors and antennas, radar absorbing materials, sensor fusion and so on will eventually find their way into MWF, keeping it relevant for a long time to come.
> 
> _
> View attachment 627575
> _
> 
> _Table 1: LCA MK2 (MWF) specifications compared with those of LCA MK1, Mirage 2000 and Gripen E (* estimated number)._
> 
> The expected features of MWF are listed in Table 1 above and compared to that of Tejas Mk1, Mirage 2000 and Gripen E. The payload capacity of MWF will be 6.5 tons as compared to the Mk1’s 3.9 tons. To carry this increased payload, the number of pylons have been increased from 8 to 11. The gun has been moved to a shoulder mounted position which has freed up space below the right intake for an additional pylon. Each wing also features four stations instead of the current three. ADA is also developing multi-rack pylons for carrying two BVR AAMs. The addition of the nose plug has also afforded space for an infra-red search and track (IRST) system, and the fuselage plugs facilitate the availability of space for an internal self-protection jammer and significantly higher internal fuel. Cumulatively, these changes not only enhance mission capability of the aircraft, but add greatly to its flexibility. What is more, MWF brochure indicates that all this additional capability comes with no additional empty weight. This optimistic estimate probably arises from the optimization of airframe structures in the second design iteration of LCA. Realistically though, some increase in the empty weight can be expected. Even with some weight gain, MWF will retain its exceptionally low wing loading. With this low wing loading, increased T/W ratio owing to its more powerful engines and optimized airframe for wave drag and enhanced manoeuvrability on account of canards, MWF is expected to achieve all the performance parameters specified by 1985 ASQR.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> _Figure 18: Schematics published by ADA during Aero India 2019, showing various aspects of the Medium Weight Fighter’s Capabilities and features._
> 
> While ADA is busy with the design of MWF, HAL has already embarked on design and development of manufacturing jigs for MWF. This is an indication that the MWF design is already in an advance stage. Metal cutting for first MWF is expected in a few months. ADA is sanguine on first flight of MWF by end of 2021 or early 2022. A total of four prototype aircrafts are planned for the flight test program. However, these 4 aircrafts will be production standard aircrafts, unlike LCA MK1 which saw the evolution through technology demonstrator, prototype vehicle and limited series production stages before serial production was taken up. This an indication of the increased maturity in the team vis-à-vis design and manufacturing capability as well as project management. In other words, the production of MWF will continue in the background as the flight test program is put through its paces.
> 
> On the manufacturing side, ADA and HAL are working on bringing next generation processes and technologies in the manufacturing of the MWF. Currently, the entire LCA Mk1 airframe structure is first assembled and then all LRUs, electric looms, piping and so on are fitted in an equipping stage. This is a serial process which takes up a significant amount of time. Instead, for MWF, ADA is working on a modular concept in which electric looms, piping, and connectors are terminated at sub-assembly interfaces with appropriate interconnectors [18]. All the major sub-assemblies namely the three fuselage sections, wings, and the fin are also being designed with this modular approach in mind. Four Tier-1 suppliers have already been identified to take up these high-level sub-assemblies. These high level sub-assemblies are further subdivided into modular sub-sub-assemblies and so on. These, in turn which will be outsourced to Tier-2/3 suppliers. The assembly will take place using a ‘jig-less’ assembly process [3]. In this approach, the jigs are modular by design and have more versatility to adapt to any changes in the build standard of the aircraft. Such jigs can also be repurposed for a completely different assembly process in the future when required. Since the jig-less assembly approach does away with the conventional locating function, more automated operations such as robotic holes drilling are expected to be introduced in the assembly process. This approach could enable the Tier-1 suppliers to supply fully equipped sub-assembly modules to HAL. HAL can then simply connect these sub-assemblies using the interconnectors to quickly arrive at the final product, significantly reducing the final assembly time. With all these changes, HAL is confident of producing MWF at the rate of 24 aircraft per year from the currently existing two assembly lines. As of today, the Indian Air Force has given a letter of intent for 200 MWF. IAF is planning to replace its medium weight Mirage 2000, Jaguars and MiG29 fleets with MWF, in the coming decade.
> 
> Every successful fighter aircraft till date has evolved over many tranches and iterations to reach its final optimized version. The process of development itself leads to an increase in the knowledge and confidence of the designers and the associated manufacturing group. This allows the shortening of development time of not only the next iteration of the aircraft, but also for next generation aircraft as well. The Tejas story is no exception to this fundamental fact and on its shoulders stand the development of India’s future generation of fighter aircraft. Therefore, the evolution of the Tejas can rightly be called the evolution of India’s fighter aircraft industry.
> 
> http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...ows-a-pair-becomes-the-medium-weight-fighter/


@JamD the case for why it's a good idea for the PAF to fund the development of the JF-17 after Block-III. Basically, pay CAC/AVIC to re-open the design, enlarge it, and add an engine with more thrust, and other changes.

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## no smoking

Joe Shearer said:


> No need to be sarcastic; all that does is to show that you haven't bothered to read carefully, but just skimmed through to catch something to go 'Gotcha!' with. Not very impressive, just another ill-mannered fan boy.
> 
> Read this, please:
> 
> _What is more, MWF brochure indicates that all this additional capability comes with no additional empty weight. This optimistic estimate probably arises from the optimization of airframe structures in the second design iteration of LCA. Realistically though, some increase in the empty weight can be expected. Even with some weight gain, MWF will retain its exceptionally low wing loading._


_ 
_
Oh, great! "Probably arises"??? In other words:"I DON"T KNOW". Are you just accepting whatever number your fellow Indians put out as long as that number makes you comfortable? 



Joe Shearer said:


> There is no weight penalty expected between the F404 and the F414 that cannot be compensated by optimising the structure.



You forget the extra weight brought in with additional length, height. And when you increase the hard points from 7 to 11, don't you think the need to strengthen the structure?

You got a brain, use it.


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## Joe Shearer

no smoking said:


> _
> _
> Oh, great! "Probably arises"??? In other words:"I DON"T KNOW". Are you just accepting whatever number your fellow Indians put out as long as that number makes you comfortable?
> 
> 
> 
> You forget the extra weight brought in with additional length, height. And when you increase the hard points from 7 to 11, don't you think the need to strengthen the structure?
> 
> You got a brain, use it.



<sigh!>

Is this some kind of dick-measuring contest?



no smoking said:


> _
> _
> Oh, great! "Probably arises"??? In other words:"I DON"T KNOW". Are you just accepting whatever number your fellow Indians put out as long as that number makes you comfortable?



If you were not so much in love with your detective abilities, you might have noticed that this is content from a third-party article. There is no point in disputing it; the author is not present, and he will not answer questions. 

I am accepting nothing, just showing you what has been presented. If you don't like it, feel free to conclude whatever you will.



> You forget the extra weight brought in with additional length, height. And when you increase the hard points from 7 to 11, don't you think the need to strengthen the structure?
> 
> You got a brain, use it.



The article explicitly mentions that there is likely to be saving in weight due to aeroframe optimisation. You can't sit on your chair in front of a system connected to the Internet, and decide that nobody else knows anything.

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## Dash

MirageBlue said:


> 3) TEBDF with delta wing and LEVCONs (like the N-LCA Mk1)


Levcons are out of question now for any fighter in dev now. Atleast for now. Closed coupled canards are the system design.


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## Armchair

Is the canard version going to be twin engined or is that the naval model only?


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## Dash

Armchair said:


> Is the canard version going to be twin engined or is that the naval model only?



The air force version is single engine and navy is twin engine. both have caranrds.

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## MirageBlue

Dash said:


> Levcons are out of question now for any fighter in dev now. Atleast for now. Closed coupled canards are the system design.



Yes, it is extremely unlikely. However, the N-LCA Mk1 with LEVCONs has been tested on the carrier and works. So while it is very unlikely, it cannot be completely ruled out.



Dash said:


> The air force version is single engine and navy is twin engine. both have caranrds.



TEDBF may or may not have canards. We don't know as yet. It is an ADA design and concept studies were on-going.

The renderings of ORCA (viz. the IAF version of TEDBF) that we have seen so far have come from HAL, which is pro-actively trying to interest the IAF in a twin-engine Rafale class fighter after the single engine MWF which is a Mirage-2000 class fighter.

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## Nilgiri

Joe Shearer said:


> <sigh!>
> 
> Is this some kind of dick-measuring contest?
> 
> 
> 
> If you were not so much in love with your detective abilities, you might have noticed that this is content from a third-party article. There is no point in disputing it; the author is not present, and he will not answer questions.
> 
> I am accepting nothing, just showing you what has been presented. If you don't like it, feel free to conclude whatever you will.
> 
> 
> 
> The article explicitly mentions that there is likely to be saving in weight due to aeroframe optimisation. You can't sit on your chair in front of a system connected to the Internet, and decide that nobody else knows anything.



Joe Joe Joe  ... not worth it. 

2020 account, 17 posts = unless proven otherwise.

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## Armchair

Dash said:


> The air force version is single engine and navy is twin engine. both have caranrds.



Thanks for the reply!


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## Dash

MirageBlue said:


> Yes, it is extremely unlikely. However, the N-LCA Mk1 with LEVCONs has been tested on the carrier and works. So while it is very unlikely, it cannot be completely ruled out.
> 
> 
> 
> TEDBF may or may not have canards. We don't know as yet. It is an ADA design and concept studies were on-going.
> 
> The renderings of ORCA (viz. the IAF version of TEDBF) that we have seen so far have come from HAL, which is pro-actively trying to interest the IAF in a twin-engine Rafale class fighter after the single engine MWF which is a Mirage-2000 class fighter.



The article I think published on DDR ruled out levcons, but adding levcon is not much of a challenge since it adds to lift and stability to the fighter while landing. (Tailess deltas cant use flaps). But again the deltas themselves are a very stable design.
But if they add then its totally alright. But I havent seen a config so far.

Regarding the ORCA, I believe HAL cant go it all alone with that design unless they have a proper design agency like ADA or a foreign partner. Other than that it all looks good.


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## MirageBlue

Dash said:


> The article I think published on DDR ruled out levcons, but adding levcon is not much of a challenge since it adds to lift and stability to the fighter while landing. (Tailess deltas cant use flaps). But again the deltas themselves are a very stable design.
> But if they add then its totally alright. But I havent seen a config so far.
> 
> Regarding the ORCA, I believe HAL cant go it all alone with that design unless they have a proper design agency like ADA or a foreign partner. Other than that it all looks good.



I would consider the possibility of LEVCONs on TEDBF to be very remote, given that they do some of what canards do, but are not functional during maneuvering and hence canards are far better.

Since MWF is getting canards, there is a good chance of the TEDBF getting it too, but clearly ADA thought that there is great value in going with stabilators and vortex flaps in the Naval-LCA Mk2 design as shown below.







Theoretically, they could just work on adding an additional engine to this N-LCA Mk2 design and call it the TEDBF.

Or they could work on adding a second engine to the MWF and making it a larger design, to make it the TEDBF.

Basically, a lot of concept studies and work will be on-going at ADA currently before a TEDBF design is frozen.

I agree, HAL cannot build an ORCA on it's own and it shouldn't. ADA is the design agency with the expertise on fighter design and HAL supports it with expertise in various systems design and integration. 

I firmly believe that ORCA will be an Air-Force variant of the TEDBF with the necessary optimizations and modifications that Air Force designs have compared to Navy designs. HAL will be able to manage that with ADA involvement. Grp Cpt HV Thakur kind of confirmed that on Twitter as well, stating that ORCA is basically an Air Force variant of TEDBF in order to increase the number of units and make the program feasible financially. It doesn't make sense to spend a billion $ on TEDBF for 57-60 fighters alone. Add the possibility of 100+ IAF orders and then the program becomes worth pursuing.

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## no smoking

Joe Shearer said:


> <sigh!>
> 
> Is this some kind of dick-measuring contest?



Dick-measuring contest? Against what? I asked a question using 2 India designs. So I am measuring Indian dick #1 vs Indian dick #2.





Joe Shearer said:


> If you were not so much in love with your detective abilities, you might have noticed that this is content from a third-party article. There is no point in disputing it; the author is not present, and he will not answer questions.
> 
> I am accepting nothing, just showing you what has been presented. If you don't like it, feel free to conclude whatever you will.



Unlike you who is defensive for India's everything, I am questioning what I think is not right, no matter it is Indian fantasy or Chinese fantasy. If you can't deal with other people's challenge, maybe you shouldn't put it on a public forum.



Joe Shearer said:


> The article explicitly mentions that there is likely to be saving in weight due to aeroframe optimisation. You can't sit on your chair in front of a system connected to the Internet, and decide that nobody else knows anything.



Structure optimisation is not magic, its weight reduction effect has limitation. Just look at the data of Gripen E in the paper:
1. 0.55m longer;
2. 0.36m lower;
3. wing area is 7.4m2 less than Tejas Mk2.
We can say that Gripen E is a jet with the similar size as Tejas Mk2. However, this latest Gripen variant is 1 ton heavier than latter. Doesn't Sweden know how to optimise their jet structure. Or once again, someone is just too optimistic about their capabilities.



Nilgiri said:


> Joe Joe Joe  ... not worth it.
> 
> 2020 account, 17 posts = unless proven otherwise.



I guess you are the best follower of fanboys whose post numbers are always on the top.

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## Joe Shearer

MirageBlue said:


> It's a mistake.
> 
> The LCA Mk1 is ~6500-6600 kgs empty weight
> The LCA Mk2 (MWF) target empty weight as per the info released at Def Expo 2020 is ~7800 kgs.
> 
> The reason I say 'target' empty weight is because as we've seen with the Gripen NG program that eventually became the Gripen E/F program, the final empty weight can be higher. The Gripen NG was advertised as having an empty weight of 7000 or 7200 kgs. When it was actually developed as a production fighter, the new empty weight came out as 8000 kgs.
> 
> 
> 
> No canards for the AMCA. That's for sure. Trapezoidal wing with large stabilizers is the configuration chosen.
> 
> However, we don't know yet what the concept studies for the TEDBF will result in;
> 
> 1) TEDBF with close-coupled canard and delta wing like the MWF
> 2) TEDBF with delta wing and stabilators like the single engined N-LCA Mk2 (which was dropped for the TEDBF)
> 3) TEBDF with delta wing and LEVCONs (like the N-LCA Mk1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas twin seater in front of Mehrangarh fortress, Jodhpur.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas twin seater in front of Umaid Bhavan, Jodhpur
> 
> Image credit Deb Rana



Not entirely a mistake. 

I agree with you regarding the actual measured weight of the developed Mk1 being 6600 kgs whereas the target weight of the Mk2/MWF is set at 7000 kgs according to the Defence Review article (7800 kgs according to the figure you have reported from the announcement at DefExpo 2020). Defence Review reported the Mk1 weight itself as 7040 kgs, so there is confusion created when it goes on to say that the Mk2 may be 7000 kgs, or 40 kgs lighter.

That, as an inter se comparison, is one thing; clearly, either we take the Mk1 weight as 6600 kgs or as 7040 kgs. It depends on which weight we take; between the 6600 kgs actual weight, and the 7040 kgs of reported weight from the Defence Review, there is a gap of 440 kgs., and that can accommodate a lot of changes. There is another even larger gap between the 6600 kgs actual weight and the target weight of 7800 kgs reported from DefExpo., a gap of 1200 kgs. 

Then the question is whether or not the proposed changes and modifications will use up the entire gap that we see here. I hope you will agree if we list the major weight components of an aircraft as follows:

Airframe 

Engine
Landing gear and drogue parachute
Sensors
Instrumentation
Let us leave aside the airframe for a moment.

The difference between the F404 and the F414 is 75 kgs (1,110 kgs for the 414, 1,035 for the 404); there should be 0 difference in landing gear and chute; we are left with the weight of sensors, and the need to accommodate additional sensors if any, and the weight of instrumentation. The weight of instrumentation has steadily gone down over the years; we may find a credit balance for the instrumentation, if anything. It then remains to assess the weight of additional sensors, assuming existing sensors are the same weight, except for the weight of an AESA radar in place of a PESA radar.

We have the following programme suggested to us:

AESA radar with integral Unified Electronic Warfare Suite
Dual colour Missile Approach Warning System
Larger MFDs
Digital Flight Control Computer hardware upgrade
Network Centric Warfare 'capability'
These are picked out from the passage below.

_MWF will be a multirole aircraft capable of carrying R-73 (and possibly ASRAAM and Python 5) CCMs, Derby and Astra BVRs, 250 kg and 500 kg dumb and laser guided bombs, heavy precision glide bombs of standoff ranges, India’s New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile besides lightweight cruise missiles, including SCALP and Brahmos-NG. It will sport an active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar with an integral Unified Electronic Warfare Suite (UEWS) and a dual colour Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) along with an upgraded glass cockpit with larger MFDs. The Digital Flight Control Computer hardware will be upgraded to the latest standard. Over the years, flight control actuators have been successfully indigenized. MWF will feature these Indian actuators, which is another significant achievement. It will also feature an enhanced Network Centric Warfare capability with seamless integration with various offensive and defensive systems of the Indian Armed Forces. _

None of these five are likely to consume the entire weight gap between the Mk1 6,600 kgs and either the 7,000 kgs of one report or the 7,800 kgs of the DefExpo figure.

I will explain in a following note why looking at the increased dimensions of the airframe, the length, height, wing span and wing area leads to errors of estimation; these increases do not correlate to the weight in a uniform manner.

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## Dash

MirageBlue said:


> I would consider the possibility of LEVCONs on TEDBF to be very remote, given that they do some of what canards do, but are not functional during maneuvering and hence canards are far better.
> 
> Since MWF is getting canards, there is a good chance of the TEDBF getting it too, but clearly ADA thought that there is great value in going with stabilators and vortex flaps in the Naval-LCA Mk2 design as shown below.



Thank you for that. Looks good for Mk2. We need to look at TEDBF final design.



MirageBlue said:


> Theoretically, they could just work on adding an additional engine to this N-LCA Mk2 design and call it the TEDBF.



I am not aware of Mk2 but Mk1 had issues with the landing gear and that significantly reduced the aircraft performance. So adding and additional engine to Mk2 without addressing the mentioned issue will not bear fruit. But I would trust the guys who are doing it.

Quoting from DDR.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...-to-the-twin-engine-deck-based-fighter-tedbf/



> To handle the intense additional stresses likely to be experienced during carrier landings, the undercarriage of the IAF version had to be greatly strengthened, even though the overall airframe was perhaps not modified to the same degree. However, this decision to not substantially modify the baseline LCA airframe led to a NLCA Mk1 design where the strengthened landing gear would ‘sprawl’ under its airframe. This in turn prevented the carriage of external fuel tanks ( or indeed any ‘heavy’ weapons) on the inboard weapons stations of the NLCA Mk1’s wings. This meant that only the centerline and mid-board weapon stations could be used to carry drop tanks, thereby reducing the payload flexibility of the design.



As regards to HAL with ADA as design agency is good but someone from the top, like HV Thakur said, need to actually put the things into perspective in order to get where we ant to.

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## Andhadhun



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## MirageBlue

Dash said:


> I am not aware of Mk2 but Mk1 had issues with the landing gear and that significantly reduced the aircraft performance. So adding and additional engine to Mk2 without addressing the mentioned issue will not bear fruit. But I would trust the guys who are doing it.


The issues related to the location of the Main Landing Gear on the Naval LCA Mk1 were to be addressed as part of the Naval LCA Mk2 single engine design. And it was taken care of in the design.

It was done by pushing the wings out farther- basically the Naval LCA Mk2 design's fuselage was made broader, to accomodate more fuel as well as to push the wings out farther, so that the inboard wing pylons were no longer interfered with by the Main Landing Gear.


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## Dash

MirageBlue said:


> The issues related to the location of the Main Landing Gear on the Naval LCA Mk1 were to be addressed as part of the Naval LCA Mk2 single engine design. And it was taken care of in the design.
> 
> It was done by pushing the wings out farther- basically the Naval LCA Mk2 design's fuselage was made broader, to accomodate more fuel as well as to push the wings out farther, so that the inboard wing pylons were no longer interfered with by the Main Landing Gear.



But it still had the same engine. A heavier body was going to be difficult for the GE engine. I seriously believed LCA as a design was not meant for the navy. The 90-100 odd F414 EPE was lying in order stage (was it delivered ever?). We should have done a complete fuselage redesign from the beginning but I believe we were just curious to see the "carrier landing" testing.


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## ziaulislam

Dash said:


> But it still had the same engine. A heavier body was going to be difficult for the GE engine. I seriously believed LCA as a design was not meant for the navy. The 90-100 odd F414 EPE was lying in order stage (was it delivered ever?). We should have done a complete fuselage redesign from the beginning but I believe we were just curious to see the "carrier landing" testing.


ofcourse its not..it just milking money..
if HAL is serious about it it should design a twin-engine around the geF414 and that too if the carrier has catapult launch system

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## Dash

ziaulislam said:


> ofcourse its not..it just milking money..
> if HAL is serious about it it should design a twin-engine around the geF414 and that too if the carrier has catapult launch system



Well what you said is not true. Its never milking money, a scientist is the last person to milk money from govt that too when he is working for it.

About twin engine. Thats not necessary for a ship borne fighter, at least now a days. Single engine will do too. Having said that, the areas where we lacked is the way our PSUs are being run. Its a classic case of program mismanagement and nothing else. Everything else is just thre.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Dash said:


> The 90-100 odd F414 EPE was lying in order stage (was it delivered ever?).


Yes, ADA has around 14 GE F-414 INS6 engines for the Mark-2.
Orders for the remaining will be given by HAL once GoI signs the contract with HAL for the Mark-2.

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## MirageBlue

Dash said:


> But it still had the same engine. A heavier body was going to be difficult for the GE engine. I seriously believed LCA as a design was not meant for the navy. The 90-100 odd F414 EPE was lying in order stage (was it delivered ever?). We should have done a complete fuselage redesign from the beginning but I believe we were just curious to see the "carrier landing" testing.



I think you've confused what I said- I said that the N-LCA Mk2 was re-designed by widening the fuselage and pushing the wings out. 

N-LCA Mk2 was to use the F-414-INS6. And with 98 kN of thrust, it should've been able to meet the payload requirements of the IN, for a single engine fighter. 

Carrier trials were not just out of curiosity. It required a lot of effort and quite a bit of money to be spent on it. It is genuine data gathering and a wealth of experience, which nobody can get without doing it themselves. The carrier trials of the N-LCA Mk1 have now convinced the Indian Navy that a twin engine TEDBF is genuinely do-able and not just another science project.



ziaulislam said:


> ofcourse its not..it just milking money..
> if HAL is serious about it it should design a twin-engine around the geF414 and that too if the carrier has catapult launch system



If anyone or anything is milking money it is foreign imports that cost thousands of crores of rupees and provide employment and business to some foreign firm with not much attendant technology gain for India. 

Providing money of a few hundred crores to design and develop a local fighter is not called milking money- it is an investment in a local aerospace eco-system without which India would forever be importing fighters from abroad. That is how ALL nations that are self-sufficient in aerospace work- their govt. spends money on local programs. 

BTW, ADA is designing a twin engine TEDBF naval fighter for the Navy around 2 F-414-INS6 engines. And no, the 2 carriers the Navy has are still going to be STOBAR and the TEDBF will also be a STOBAR fighter, like the MiG-29K.

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> I think you've confused what I said- I said that the N-LCA Mk2 was re-designed by widening the fuselage and pushing the wings out.
> 
> N-LCA Mk2 was to use the F-414-INS6. And with 98 kN of thrust, it should've been able to meet the payload requirements of the IN, for a single engine fighter.
> 
> Carrier trials were not just out of curiosity. It required a lot of effort and quite a bit of money to be spent on it. It is genuine data gathering and a wealth of experience, which nobody can get without doing it themselves. The carrier trials of the N-LCA Mk1 have now convinced the Indian Navy that a twin engine TEDBF is genuinely do-able and not just another science project.
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone or anything is milking money it is foreign imports that cost thousands of crores of rupees and provide employment and business to some foreign firm with not much attendant technology gain for India.
> 
> Providing money of a few hundred crores to design and develop a local fighter is not called milking money- it is an investment in a local aerospace eco-system without which India would forever be importing fighters from abroad. That is how ALL nations that are self-sufficient in aerospace work- their govt. spends money on local programs.
> 
> BTW, ADA is designing a twin engine TEDBF naval fighter for the Navy around 2 F-414-INS6 engines. And no, the 2 carriers the Navy has are still going to be STOBAR and the TEDBF will also be a STOBAR fighter, like the MiG-29K.


Definitions of miliking money is to ask for undue high charges
LCA costs more than gripen and f16s...even though labour cost is 20x more

(F16 b70 ~70 million for better performance)


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## Dash

ziaulislam said:


> Definitions of miliking money is to ask for undue high charges
> LCA costs more than gripen and f16s...even though labour cost is 20x more
> 
> (F16 b70 ~70 million for better performance)



First you said milking money is spending on mediocre designs. Now you are saying high cost. Stay on a post please.

The cost of LCA is now @ $65 million an that too, with sub optimum economy of scale. That cost I said includes support cost as well. And for a home grown fighter this is a price we need to pay and eventually bring it down and it will come down when more fighter orders take place.


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Definitions of miliking money is to ask for undue high charges
> LCA costs more than gripen and f16s...even though labour cost is 20x more
> 
> (F16 b70 ~70 million for better performance)



LCA Mk1 cost - first 20 IOC batch -~ $25 million per unit
LCA Mk1 cost - second 20 FOC batch - ~$25 million per unit
LCA Mk1A cost - 73 single seaters and 10 trainers - ~$45 million per unit

I cannot see how you arrived at this understanding that the Tejas costs more than F-16 or Gripen. Gripen C/D unit cost is in the region of $55-60 million. F-16 Block 50/52 cost $60+ million as well.

F-16 Block 70 is in the region of $75-80 million per unit.

Again, these are just fly-away prices and the total acquisition costs (infrastructure, training, manuals, ground support equipment, simulators, spares, etc.) is MUCH MUCH higher for any Western jet.

As far as India is concerned, the cheapest option is the Tejas. Besides, most of the money for the Tejas goes to HAL and it's suppliers, both public sector and private. When we import, almost all the money goes out of the country. No wonder the GoI now wants to prioritize indigenous programs and imports will get last priority.

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> LCA Mk1 cost - first 20 IOC batch -~ $25 million per unit
> LCA Mk1 cost - second 20 FOC batch - ~$25 million per unit
> LCA Mk1A cost - 73 single seaters and 10 trainers - ~$45 million per unit
> 
> I cannot see how you arrived at this understanding that the Tejas costs more than F-16 or Gripen. Gripen C/D unit cost is in the region of $55-60 million. F-16 Block 50/52 cost $60+ million as well.
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is in the region of $75-80 million per unit.
> 
> Again, these are just fly-away prices and the total acquisition costs (infrastructure, training, manuals, ground support equipment, simulators, spares, etc.) is MUCH MUCH higher for any Western jet.
> 
> As far as India is concerned, the cheapest option is the Tejas. Besides, most of the money for the Tejas goes to HAL and it's suppliers, both public sector and private. When we import, almost all the money goes out of the country. No wonder the GoI now wants to prioritize indigenous programs and imports will get last priority.


Flyaway cost of gripen/f16 <45 million
For foreign customers its 60-70m..this will be lower if locally produced not much different than LCA with VASTLY superior plateform performance wise


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Flyaway cost of gripen/f16 <45 million
> For foreign customers its 60-70m..this will be lower if locally produced not much different than LCA with VASTLY superior plateform performance wise



No it is not.

The acquisition cost of Gripen C/D is ~$80 million per unit.

In 2008, Thailand bought 6 Gripen C/D fighters for $570 million acquisition cost. That works out to $95 million per Gripen C/D acquisition cost.

article link



> BANGKOK, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Thailand’s Air Force will buy six JAS-39 Gripen fighter jets from Sweden’s Saab (SAABb.ST) for 19.5 billion baht ($574 million) to replace ageing F-5E fighters, Air Force chief Chalit Pukphasuk said on Wednesday.
> 
> A member of the selection panel had said on Tuesday the Air Force would buy 12 Gripens in two batches, but Chalit told a news conference approval of the second batch would have to wait until a new government took office after a December general election.
> 
> The first six would be bought between 2008 and 2012 and the second batch “as soon as possible”, Chalit said.



$454 million was set aside to buy 6 more Gripen C/Ds. Cheaper than batch 1 because the infrastructure costs would have been spent in the first batch. That worked out to $75 million for each Gripen C/D of the second batch acquisition cost.



> The Air Force said in a statement 15.4 billion baht was set aside for the second phase of the purchase between 2013 and 2017.



Fly-away cost would have been ~$60 million back in 2008 itself. 12 years later, add inflation and increase in labour and material costs, and the fly-away cost of the Gripen C/D at today's rates will be closer to $65-70 million at least. Acquisition costs will be in the range of ~$100-105 million per unit.

And the latest F-16V/Block 70 will be in the region of $70-75 million fly-away and acquisition costs will be nearly $120 million range, going by the Bulgarian and Slovak deals.

Back in 2016, the Gripen C/D was estimated to cost $69 million per unit, fly-away cost.

Thailand mulls buying 4 additional Gripen fighters

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## MirageBlue

Anantha Krishnan- updates on Tejas production. Mind you, SP-21 serial number was changed to SP-17 and SP-22 as SP-18 and so on.
SP-17 to carry out 2 more sorties and then 3 to 4 Customer Acceptance Flights and then off to AFS Sulur to be handed over to the newly resurrected No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron. They may wait for SP-18 also be handed over before No.18 Squadron is resurrected. That was how No.45 Squadron was resurrected as well; 2 new fighters, SP-1 and SP-2 were handed over and a ceremony was conducted to officially restart operations of No.45 Squadron.



> @writetake
> 
> #TejasUpdate
> 
> * SP21 to have 2 more sorties followed by 3/4 CAFs, then to AFS Sulur.
> * SP22 couple of tests + LSTT + HSTT-cum-1st flight. Now getting the painting done.
> * SP23/SP24 got into #Covid delays, awaiting some components.
> * SP25/SP26 on coupling stage.

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## Lord Of Gondor

*IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says*
*https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-to-...ad-of-foreign-jets-cds-rawat-says/421827/?amp*

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> *IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says*
> *https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-to-...ad-of-foreign-jets-cds-rawat-says/421827/?amp*




I don't know why they're harping on this as a replacement for the MRCA. It is not. 

The deal for the 83 Tejas Mk1A has been in the works for more than 2 years. It was wrapped up, with the only thing remaining being CDS approval and contract signature. 

The 40 Tejas Mk1 + 83 Tejas Mk1A = 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A fighters. That is the replacement for the MiG-21 Bison fleet. That was always the plan. Light fighter to replace a light fighter.

However, now that there is no way that the 114 MRCA RFP will progress any further, the most prudent solution is this:

- 36 to 48 more Rafale fighters 
- Additional orders for the MWF to fill the gap of 114 minus 36 Rafale fighters

Currently the IAF wants the MWF to replace Mirage-2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 fighters. IAF's stated intent was to order 12 squadrons worth (viz. ~240 MWF fighters @ 18 per squadron + 2 reserves). If 36 Rafale are ordered, that leaves another 4 squadrons gap, which MWF could fill. 

HAL and it's private suppliers will need to step up big time. Maybe there'll need to be a separate assembly line run by one of the bigger private suppliers like L&T or Tata. They have the scale of manufacturing where with HAL hand-holding, they can set up MWF assembly line if the Govt. wants them to.

Just FYI, Tata's are now supplying Apache fuselages back to Boeing in the US. All Apache fuselages will be built at the Tata Boeing Aerospace Ltd.

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## MirageBlue

LCA fighter aircraft projects to be finalised in next few months- IAF Chief



> *
> NEW DELHI: In a big boost for defence under the Make in India initiative, Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria on
> Monday said that the second squadron of Light Combat Aircraft (LCAs) worth over Rs 8,000 crore would be operationalised by the end of May.*
> 
> Speaking to ANI, the Air Force Chief said the Air Force is also expecting to finalise a contract worth around Rs 39,000 crore for 83 LCA Mark 1A Aircraft in the next quarter.
> *
> "The first squadron is already operationalised. We were to operationalise the second squadron in April, we have resurrected the squadron. *But due to COVID-19, it got delayed. Some work at HAL had stopped which has restarted. Hopefully, before the end of this month we will inaugurate the second squadron of LCA. It's worth
> just in terms of aircraft and ground assets, will be upwards of Rs 8,000 crore," Bhadauria said here.
> *
> Speaking about the future programs on LCA, he added, "We are pushing hard for 83 LCA Mark 1A, that's our immediate focus area. Within the next quarter, we should be able to sign it. Most of the negotiations have been completed and I think the Ministry is going to move it in a month or so." *
> He said that this project would range around Rs 39,000 crore.

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## Nilgiri

@MirageBlue et al. Do you have source or estimate to what the operating costs of LCA will be compared to (Current state) Mig-21s?


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## MirageBlue

Nilgiri said:


> @MirageBlue et al. Do you have source or estimate to what the operating costs of LCA will be compared to (Current state) Mig-21s?



hi Nilgiri,

Operating costs are generally broken down on the basis of :

1) Number of hours of line maintenance between sorties - that will define how many people are needed and then based on labour costs, one can estimate how much it'll cost to maintain the jet between sorties
2) Failure rates or MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure)
3) Fuel costs per sortie
4) Ground infrastructure requirements
5) Overhaul schedules
6) Spares requirements

In terms of maintenance between sorties, the LCA will most likely be better than the MiG-21. The MiG-21 was 2 generation older, had no computer systems on board to help diagnose issues. So if some system fails, the technicians have to diagnose it based on experience or spend lots of time figuring it out. Whereas the Tejas has onboard computerised BITE (Built In Test Equipment) that help maintainers diagnose issues with systems very quickly. It is like the new generation of cars that allow the onboard computer to quickly give a error code and the technician can tell what system failed and why. 

The MTBF of Tejas components will be far higher than that of the MiG-21. Again, the MiG-21 was 2 generations older, with equipment designed mostly in the 1970s and 1980s. Newer gen equipment tend to have higher MTBF, especially when compared to Russian equipment that tended to have lower MTBF. Even for the Kopyo radar on the MiG-21 Bison, the MTBF was much lower than what brochure specs were. Whereas, the Elta 2032 is far more reliable. As per sources, it is the best radar in the IAF currently, even when compared to the RDY-3 on the Mirage-2000I.

Fuel costs will be either equivalent or lower for the Tejas for the same sortie duration (say 30 minutes sortie). As ACM Dhanoa had mentioned, the Tejas' F-414 is far more fuel efficient than the turbojet Tumansky R-25 on the MiG-21. Lower Specific Fuel Consumption means lower fuel usage. 

Ground infrastructure requirements- the Tejas was designed to fit the ground footprint of the MiG-21. That included using the same hangars, hardened shelters as the MiG-21. No new infrastructure required there. And for ground equipment, IAF would have to buy new sets for the Tejas since it's a new type with no commonality with the MiG-21. So higher costs for the Tejas since it's a new type. Once it is in service in large numbers, that figure will be less relevant.

Overhaul- the MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhauls) of the Tejas will definitely be higher than the MiG-21. The reason again being higher usage of composites, onboard Health Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) that gives the maintainers and designers a LOT of data on the health of onboard systems and fatigue. F-414 MTBO will be several hundred hours better than the R-25 turbojets that were designed 40-50 years ago. Higher intervals between overhaul would mean lower overhaul costs in total. 
*
Tejas service life is now estimated to be 9,000 hours based on a new report in DDR. This is as per sources and the data is based on the HUMS data from the in-service Tejas jets flying. Compare that to the MiG-21bis, which had an original fatigue life of 2400 hours and after NAL fatigue analysis was found to be 3400 hours and no more.*

10 year breather- MiG-21 can fly 1000 hours extra



> With the entire MiG-21 Bis fleet of 150 aircraft approaching its maximum life-span of 2,400 hours as
> per original certification by Russia, IAF went for the life-enhancement test at NAL
> 
> It flew in a MiG-21 that had completed 2400 hours and had no fatigue cracks. The question before IAF was - how much longer could the aircraft fly?
> 
> IAF requisitioned NAL to extend MiG-21 Bis life from 2,400 hours to 4,000 hours - an additional 1,600 hours. The aircraft, however, experienced cracks and break-up after around 1,000 hours of flying.
> 
> "There was no question of further testing as the aircraft had reached its limits. But it became evident that its life could be extended by 1000 flying hours," said NAL official P K Dash.
> ...

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## MirageBlue

Excellent article that demolishes the myths that paid media spreads in India to turn public opinion in favor of imported jets. Deliberate lies are spread both pulling down the Tejas and pushing up comparable jets like the Gripen C/D. 
*
This is where it was revealed that based on fatigue analysis of the data from HUMS, the Tejas is now estimated to have a 9,000 hour service life and by the time more analysis is done, the figure is expected to be higher.*

Removing some fallacies about the capabilities of the LCA Tejas fighter



> ....
> 
> *Fallacy 3*. _The lifespan of the Tejas is 20 years against the 40 years of the Gripen and the F-16._
> 
> *Truth:* First of all, the lifespan of aircraft is not measured in years, but flight hours. The most critical aspect on which the lifespan of a modern fighter aircraft depends is the durability of the engine that powers it. Over the course of its service life, a modern jet-powered single-engined fighter aircraft typically ends up using about 3.5 engines. Once again, the Tejas employs the same engine as that the Gripen C/D whose life is comparable (slightly better) than the engine employed by the F-16! I*n terms of structure, the Tejas, using contemporary manufacturing techniques, employs one of the highest amount of composites by weight (See Fig 1.)*. It is unclear how the same material and composites used by the Tejas are structurally half as good as that of the Gripen C/D’s or F-16’s. The truth is that the in-service fatigue life of the Tejas is yet to be ascertained. As per sources, an initial conservative estimate of 9000 flying hours has been arrived at. Each of the in-service Tejas units are fitted with a Health Up Monitoring System (HUMS) to measure airframe fatigue and come up with revised estimates for service life. By all indicators this estimation of 9000 hours is going to be revised upwards! This is nothing new. The F-16’s and the Gripen’s lifespan also saw such revisions over the course of their time in service. When the F-16 first flew, its service life was estimated to be 6,000 hours. It was revised upwards to 8,000 hours subsequently and this has only recently been further pushed up to about 12,000 hours. One can expect the Tejas to also see similar upward revisions in its estimated service life over the years.
> 
> ....

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## maniac@666

MirageBlue said:


> hi Nilgiri,
> 
> Operating costs are generally broken down on the basis of :
> 
> 1) Number of hours of line maintenance between sorties - that will define how many people are needed and then based on labour costs, one can estimate how much it'll cost to maintain the jet between sorties
> 2) Failure rates or MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure)
> 3) Fuel costs per sortie
> 4) Ground infrastructure requirements
> 5) Overhaul schedules
> 6) Spares requirements
> 
> In terms of maintenance between sorties, the LCA will most likely be better than the MiG-21. The MiG-21 was 2 generation older, had no computer systems on board to help diagnose issues. So if some system fails, the technicians have to diagnose it based on experience or spend lots of time figuring it out. Whereas the Tejas has onboard computerised BITE (Built In Test Equipment) that help maintainers diagnose issues with systems very quickly. It is like the new generation of cars that allow the onboard computer to quickly give a error code and the technician can tell what system failed and why.
> 
> The MTBF of Tejas components will be far higher than that of the MiG-21. Again, the MiG-21 was 2 generations older, with equipment designed mostly in the 1970s and 1980s. Newer gen equipment tend to have higher MTBF, especially when compared to Russian equipment that tended to have lower MTBF. Even for the Kopyo radar on the MiG-21 Bison, the MTBF was much lower than what brochure specs were. Whereas, the Elta 2032 is far more reliable. As per sources, it is the best radar in the IAF currently, even when compared to the RDY-3 on the Mirage-2000I.
> 
> Fuel costs will be either equivalent or lower for the Tejas for the same sortie duration (say 30 minutes sortie). As ACM Dhanoa had mentioned, the Tejas' F-414 is far more fuel efficient than the turbojet Tumansky R-25 on the MiG-21. Lower Specific Fuel Consumption means lower fuel usage.
> 
> Ground infrastructure requirements- the Tejas was designed to fit the ground footprint of the MiG-21. That included using the same hangars, hardened shelters as the MiG-21. No new infrastructure required there. And for ground equipment, IAF would have to buy new sets for the Tejas since it's a new type with no commonality with the MiG-21. So higher costs for the Tejas since it's a new type. Once it is in service in large numbers, that figure will be less relevant.
> 
> Overhaul- the MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhauls) of the Tejas will definitely be higher than the MiG-21. The reason again being higher usage of composites, onboard Health Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) that gives the maintainers and designers a LOT of data on the health of onboard systems and fatigue. F-414 MTBO will be several hundred hours better than the R-25 turbojets that were designed 40-50 years ago. Higher intervals between overhaul would mean lower overhaul costs in total.
> *
> Tejas service life is now estimated to be 9,000 hours based on a new report in DDR. This is as per sources and the data is based on the HUMS data from the in-service Tejas jets flying. Compare that to the MiG-21bis, which had an original fatigue life of 2400 hours and after NAL fatigue analysis was found to be 3400 hours and no more.*
> 
> 10 year breather- MiG-21 can fly 1000 hours extra


Indian mirages use RDY-2 radar after the upgrade.RDY-3 is a lighter version of the RDY-2.Tejas uses GE F-404.


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## MirageBlue

maniac@666 said:


> Indian mirages use RDY-2 radar after the upgrade.RDY-3 is a lighter version of the RDY-2.Tejas uses GE F-404.



No, they use the RDY-3. Even UAE's Mirage-2000 upgrades are supposed to get the RDY-3 which is considered the latest iteration of the RDY.

link



> The RDY-3 radar is the latest iteration of the RDM/RDY series of radars that have equipped Mirage fighters throughout their life. Notably selected by the Indian Air Force for its Mirage 2000 upgrade program, the X-band radar has been popular in recent Mirage upgrades. It represents the technological pinnacle of Thales’ current radar offerings for the Mirage.



link



> Thales recently won a contract from India to upgrade 49 Mirage 2000s (two were lost recently) to bring them to the full Mirage 2000v5 Mk 2 standard.* The deal includes an RDY-3 radar with greater air-to-air and air-to-ground capability, a new night-vision-compatible all-digital cockpit, and improved electronic warfare systems. While it is not yet clear whether the joint venture will manufacture components for the RDY-3, Thales is most likely to tap its offsets commitment with this venture.*


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## xeuss

MirageBlue said:


> Overhaul- the MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhauls) of the Tejas will definitely be higher than the MiG-21. The reason again being higher usage of composites, onboard Health Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) that gives the maintainers and designers a LOT of data on the health of onboard systems and fatigue. F-414 MTBO will be several hundred hours better than the R-25 turbojets that were designed 40-50 years ago. Higher intervals between overhaul would mean lower overhaul costs in total.



Is there a noted MX interval for this aircraft listed at the moment?

Also, is the life limit for the structure listed at the moment?


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## MirageBlue

xeuss said:


> Is there a noted MX interval for this aircraft listed at the moment?
> 
> Also, is the life limit for the structure listed at the moment?



We don't have data on the Maintenance intervals as of now.

As for Total Technical Life limit, it is currently estimated to be 9,000 hours. It could be even higher as the static sample's fatigue testing is completed, which is currently in progress. Current estimate is based on the fatigue data recorded by the onboard HUMS.

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## MirageBlue

This article, which reproduces a speech at a conference by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar should lay to rest all those that doubt the capability of the Tejas. This is from the June-July 2018, that's 2 years ago. The No.45 Squadron is now even more experienced on the Tejas and more capabilities have been added on from the FOC.
*
So basically the Tejas, within months of being inducted into the IAF at IOC level, beat ALL other IAF fighters in the air to ground range scores and weapon delivery.* Pilots were hardly even experienced with it and they could beat experienced pilots on the Mirage-2000, Su-30MKI, Jaguars, MiG-27s and MiG-21s. Not sure if the MiG-29 (non-upgraded) was used in Exercise Gagan Shakti for air to ground strikes.

He also clearly articulated the IAF's backing for the Tejas Mk2, now called the Medium Weight Fighter (MWF). He clearly stated that it is bench-marked against the Mirage-2000, performance wise. Avionics will be far superior to what the current Mirage-2000I has.

MWF will begin to replace MiG-29s first (10 years from then - viz. 2028), then Jaguars (15 years from then- viz. 2032) and finally, Mirage-2000 (20 years from then - viz. 2038)

Article PDF link



> ...
> As far as the Make in India plan goes, we are at the moment procuring the LCA Mk I. It is being purchased in two
> stages: We have the IOC (Initial Operational Clearance) variant, 20 of which were ordered in 2006, of which nine have been delivered and the remaining eleven, we believe will be delivered in the next two years. We have ordered another 20 LCAs, which are the FOC (Final Operational Clearance) variant, and these will be delivered after the IOC variant is complete. The LCA Mark I fleet, we have restricted to these 40 aircraft.
> 
> Subsequent to the above, we intend to procure the Mark IA, which is an improved version of the LCA Mark I and has a new radar and advanced EW capabilities. It is, however, essentially the Mark I, with a few add ons. We have issued an RFP in December 2017, to get an additional 83 aircrafts of this type.
> *
> It must be stated that the LCA Mark 1 and Mark 1A are very good aircraft. We recently conducted a major exercise called Gagan Shakti, and the LCA performed remarkably well. The best range scores and the best weapon delivery emerged from the nine LCAs we had fielded, which really worked wonders.
> 
> This gives me the confidence to state that the LCA will see us through the next 20 years, if not more, in technological capability terms.
> 
> The first squadron of the LCA, 45 Squadron, also called the ‘Flying Daggers,’ has recently shifted from Bangalore, where they were being looked after by HAL to Sulur. They are now operating in a more operational scenario and are being put through the full spectrum of air operations as envisaged by the IAF.*
> 
> Our aircraft of the future, as we perceive it as of today, is the LCA Mark II. This aircraft, we believe, will replace the MiG 29 in the next ten years, the Jaguar in the next 15 years and the Mirage 2000 in the next 20 years. All combined, this adds up to a total of twelve squadrons.
> *
> The requirements of the IAF for the LCA Mark II are centred on two crucial points. First, it has to be cutting edge,
> to the tune of its best electronic warfare capability and best weapons. As far as performance goes, we have pegged the performance to the level of the Mirage 2000, which is an aircraft already 35 years in our inventory. We are therefore not aiming for the moon, but for space at best. Therefore, our requirements have already been crystallised, our designers are at it, and given the fact that we have pitched ourselves at a level at which they are capable of generating and making, we will have an aircraft which will be in time in the next ten years or so. *
> 
> It will be the Mark II and will be a different breed of aircraft — probably bigger, probably more powerful and
> definitely capable of lifting much more load. We are envisaging an aircraft that can lift at least 6.5 tons of weapon
> load as compared to the LCA and LCA I which lifts about 3.8 tons.
> 
> We are also looking at six squadrons of fighter aircraft through the strategic partner route. A lot of doubting
> Thomas’s doubt whether this will happen. We believe it will. We believe we require this aircraft to bridge over the fighter gap which we see happening in our inventory as the years go
> by.
> 
> Our future is the Advance Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). This is not just wishful thinking. We have committed
> land, money and a lot of thought to this programme, and we believe that in the next 15 years, we will have the AMCA prototype, the NGTD1 (Next Generation Technology Demonstrator) and the NGTD 2 flying. We intend to have this aircraft in collaboration with the DRDO, with the Public Private Partnership model, flying out of Sulur by that date.
> 
> We have broad concurrence from the government, the DRDO is on board and an expression of interest is already in the market for establishing a partnership for the AMCA.
> 
> Our bottomline is to have indigenously built fighters which will form the bulk of the IAF inventory by 2032. Mark II of the LCA will be as many as 12 squadrons. That is how we envisage the IAF to be heading.
> 
> ...

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264453810321190912

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## Deino

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264453810321190912




But just to be sure: squadron has resurrected does not mean any aircraft are already delivered? ... and if yes, when will that happen?


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## Lord Of Gondor

Deino said:


> But just to be sure: squadron has resurrected does not mean any aircraft are already delivered? ... and if yes, when will that happen?


Squadron resurrected in Apr itself, at least two airframes may be with the team, I am not certain.

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## Deino

Not sure if already posted, but IMO a great thread/Tweet from @Maverick_bharat showing all 16 aircraft of from No. 45 Squadron "Flying Daggers"


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264538162447224832

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## Deino

Something very much different I stumbled across as the SDF:

Well, that's indeed a major surprise I did not know!







Any idea when this was proposed and where this report is from (looks like from Flight International)?

Imagine, if things had turned differently, a JF-17 in IAF-colors.

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## Deino

Here ... from 1994!

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264910034648985600

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Here ... from 1994!
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264910034648985600


 Everybody in the world loves Indians


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## MirageBlue

aliaselin said:


> Everybody in the world loves Indians



Says a Chinese person. See the irony here?

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## Lord Of Gondor

@Deino As per this article, squadron will start with 4 FOC fighters.
Anyhow we will see the images shortly.
*Flying Bullets Is All Set To Become The Second IAF Tejas Squadron*
*http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/...tejas-squadron/amp/?__twitter_impression=true*

The Squadron patch is also shown, thanks to DDR for the same:

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> But just to be sure: squadron has resurrected does not mean any aircraft are already delivered? ... and if yes, when will that happen?



There are a lot of administrative work related things that need to be done as well. Pilots and technicians will be transferred to the squadron, infrastructure set up and such will start.

The expectation was to have 2 aircraft handed over No.18 'Flying Bullets' to start operations. That is how No.45 'Flying Daggers' started ops as well. HAL should hand over 12 single seater Tejas FOC fighters to No.18 this year, if Covid-19 related lockdowns haven't disrupted suppliers too much. There was a 1 month closure at HAL as well.



Lord Of Gondor said:


> @Deino As per this article, squadron will start with 4 FOC fighters.
> Anyhow we will see the images shortly.
> *Flying Bullets Is All Set To Become The Second IAF Tejas Squadron*
> *http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/...tejas-squadron/amp/?__twitter_impression=true*
> 
> The Squadron patch is also shown, thanks to DDR for the same:



Love the new patch!

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## Deino

Lord Of Gondor said:


> @Deino As per this article, squadron will start with 4 FOC fighters.
> Anyhow we will see the images shortly.




Thanks, but I must admit from all report I read including several ones from highly respected and most reliable sources, all say, that NONE of these mentioned Tejas is actually ready and it all depends on what you define on "soon" or "shortly".

Even the report itself says so:

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## ziaulislam

Deino said:


> Thanks, but I must admit from all report I read including several ones from highly respected and most reliable sources, all say, that NONE of these mentioned Tejas is actually ready and it all depends on what you define on "soon" or "shortly".
> 
> Even the report itself says so:
> 
> View attachment 635753


Wait..what..indians are claiming they are operational since 2012?.
Here is i see its 2020 with no clear operational status?


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## Lord Of Gondor

I think images will be out by today evening.



ziaulislam said:


> Wait..what..indians are claiming they are operational since 2012?.
> Here is i see its 2020 with no clear operational status?


There are hundreds of other threads where you can troll aimlessly, not this one FFS.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Thanks, but I must admit from all report I read including several ones from highly respected and most reliable sources, all say, that NONE of these mentioned Tejas is actually ready and it all depends on what you define on "soon" or "shortly".
> 
> Even the report itself says so:
> 
> View attachment 635753



SP-17 has been flying. 3 Customer Acceptance Flights were supposed to have happened, before handing over to the No.18 Squadron and that might have already been done.

SP-18 was conducting Engine Ground Trials several days ago as per sources. SP-19 and SP-20 are not yet ready and might take a few more months to be handed over.

I would expect SP-17 and 18 to be the ones that get handed over and begin operations.

There may also be fighters shared or transferred between No.45 and No.18 Squadrons. Both are based at Sulur AFS, so No.45 Squadron could hand over a couple of it's fighters temporarily to No.18 for them to begin ops. 

Wing Cmdr Manish Tolani, who is the new CO of No.18 Squadron was the Flight Commander of No.45 Squadron till a few weeks ago.

SP-17 (without the IFR probe this time) coming in to land

Picture courtesy, Grp Cpt HV Thakur (retd.), HAL test pilot

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> SP-17 has been flying. 3 Customer Acceptance Flights were supposed to have happened, before handing over to the No.18 Squadron and that might have already been done.
> 
> SP-18 was conducting Engine Ground Trials several days ago as per sources. SP-19 and SP-20 are not yet ready and might take a few more months to be handed over.
> 
> I would expect SP-17 and 18 to be the ones that get handed over and begin operations.
> 
> There may also be fighters shared or transferred between No.45 and No.18 Squadrons. Both are based at Sulur AFS, so No.45 Squadron could hand over a couple of it's fighters temporarily to No.18 for them to begin ops.
> 
> Wing Cmdr Manish Tolani, who is the new CO of No.18 Squadron was the Flight Commander of No.45 Squadron till a few weeks ago.
> 
> SP-17 (without the IFR probe this time) coming in to land




Thanks for your reply but that is all irrelevant to the original discussion:

Certain members claimed repeatedly all four SP-aircraft were attending the ceremony and handed over and my reply was that this is wrong by all information I have. 
That these three are in various stages of testing and delivery might be fine, but it only proves they were not handed over yet.


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## MirageBlue

SP-18 (formerly called SP-22) roll out. Factory fresh.Will be the second Tejas handed over to No.18 Squadron.






Image courtesy Anantha Krishnan.


Big day for IAF, HAL as new Tejas Squadron takes off today

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria in a MiG-21UM, probably during his sortie at Srinagar AFS with the CO of No.51 Squadron 'Sword Arms' that flies MiG-21 Bison fighters.








> ...
> As a testimony to IAF’s support and confidence in the indigenous fighter and also to boost the morale of the young squadron, the CAS might fly the Tejas during the occasion. He has been a long-standing supporter of the program and knows the nuances of Tejas right from it's early years. Ever since taking over as the CAS, he has been vocal about IAF’s support for all indigenous programmes.
> 
> ...
> 
> “We are committed to the Tejas programme and all its variants. As I have reiterated to you earlier, the induction of the second squadron is sure to boost the operational utilisation of Tejas. To achieve our goals and to see the complete operational utility of Tejas, we will need these fighters in large numbers.
> 
> ..

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## Deino

But don't get me wrong ... it is all again "WILL BE" and not as some claim "they are already handed over"!

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## MirageBlue

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria flew a Tejas single seater today to mark the resurrection of No.18 Squadron.













> IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria flew a Tejas jet this morning. Photos just in from Sulur where the 2nd LCA squadron is being raised.



Twitter link

Can see the mount for a GoPro inside the cockpit.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> But don't get me wrong ... it is all again "WILL BE" and not as some claim "they are already handed over"!



And what's the big point that you're making with all this "oh they will be handed over and haven't been handed over" !?

SP-18 will fly soon and in a month will be handed over to No.18 Squadron. And so on it'll continue. Whether they get 4 now or in a 3-4 month period is irrelevant.

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## Nilgiri

Deino said:


> But don't get me wrong ... it is all again "WILL BE" and not as some claim "they are already handed over"!



Cmon friend let us be, its desi approach lol. Make names and entities first, arrange stuff in due time.

You are too Prussian-style and ordered  ...you guys have to live in stifling tropical heat for 1000s of years to know this stuff better haha.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Brilliant article by AK Ananth Krishnan,
*Big day for IAF, HAL as new Tejas Squadron takes off today*
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news/kerala/2020/05/27/tejas-squadron-indian-air-force-sulur.html




The ceremonial key handed over to OC 18 Sqn, Grp Capt. Manish Tolani.

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## The Maverick

Oh my god 
How good does the final operation tejas look in background 

I'm delighted Indians are going mix bag of 
Indengious tejas kitted out with USA engines and Israeli technology and having force multipliers with the world class rafale. 
All backed up by a formidable fleet of su30mki

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## kmc_chacko

_"The next two fighters Tejas SP-22 and Tejas SP-23 are expected to join Flying Bullets in the next one Month"_





Lord Of Gondor said:


> Brilliant article by AK Ananth Krishnan,
> *Big day for IAF, HAL as new Tejas Squadron takes off today*
> https://english.manoramaonline.com/news/kerala/2020/05/27/tejas-squadron-indian-air-force-sulur.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ceremonial key handed over to OC 18 Sqn, Grp Capt. Manish Tolani.

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## Lord Of Gondor

The other patch also looks cool!




You can see the shadows of the Gnat, Ajeet and MiG-27 on the right as well!


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## xeuss

MirageBlue said:


> Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria flew a Tejas single seater today to mark the resurrection of No.18 Squadron.



Pardon my ignorance. But what does "resurrection of No.18 Squadron" mean? This squadron existed in the past but is now defunct?


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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265657218084585472


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## xeuss

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265657218084585472



Damn - forgot about the Ajeets. What happened to them? All decomissioned?


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## MirageBlue

xeuss said:


> Damn - forgot about the Ajeets. What happened to them? All decomissioned?



Long ago. By the mid 1990s they were all gone.

Multi-faith prayer ceremony. Only SP-17 was handed over to the squadron and no other jets.








xeuss said:


> Pardon my ignorance. But what does "resurrection of No.18 Squadron" mean? This squadron existed in the past but is now defunct?



When a squadron's aircraft are retired and all it's assets handed over, it is "Numberplated". That means that the squadron is no longer active.

When a squadron needs to be reinstated, it is termed as resurrection. The activation of a squadron that was previously numberplated is what the term refers to.

SP-18. The second Tejas FOC fighter that will be handed over to No.18 Squadron






Another squadron patch posted on Twitter, slightly different from the one worn by ACM RKS Bhadauria.

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## The Maverick



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## polanski

Indian Air Force Stand Up Second Tejas Squadron: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/05/28/indian-air-force-stand-up-second-tejas-squadron/


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## MirageBlue

SP-17 and HAL CTP Air Cmde Muthanna who took it on it's first flight. Just check the superb build quality by expanding the picture to full size.






Image credit: Vayu Aerospace Review

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> SP-17 and HAL CTP Air Cmde Muthanna who took it on it's first flight. Just check the superb build quality by expanding the picture to full size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image credit: Vayu Aerospace Review




But that must be an older image? Wasn't LA-5021 renumbered to LA-5017?


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## The Maverick

Looks very much like the the mirage cousin.
The build looks near
Love the camo grey paint scheme 
And feel it's a very capable platform not least due to fadec USA engine from ge and advanced radar and jammers and missles from Israel.


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> Looks very much like the the mirage cousin.
> The build looks near
> Love the camo grey paint scheme
> And feel it's a very capable platform not least due to fadec USA engine from ge and advanced radar and jammers and missles from Israel.


Im not going to say its a bad plane------but the design dose not make any sense.

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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Im not going to say its a bad plane------but the design dose not make any sense.



Expand your logic please



The Maverick said:


> Expand your logic please







The design






French Mirage2000



The Maverick said:


> Expand your logic please
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Mirage2000







PAF mirage 5


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> But that must be an older image? Wasn't LA-5021 renumbered to LA-5017?
> 
> View attachment 636471



Yes, it's probably after the first flight where it was numbered LA-5021. LA-5017 is the newer image. It was earlier numbered LA-5021, but changed to LA-5017.

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## The Maverick

To me its a good design NOT world class like F16 or Gripen
Its a good plane for fighting In SOUTH ASIA would be hopeless in NATO 
Its good experience AND will morph into this baby in 6-8 years 






MARK 2


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> Expand your logic please
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Mirage2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF mirage 5


Undercarriage

cockpit design 

center-line width 

air intakes


Looks draggy plus the delta wing's are weird----just saying.

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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Undercarriage
> 
> cockpit design
> 
> center-line width
> 
> air intakes
> 
> 
> Looks draggy plus the delta wing's are weird----just saying.




cock pit of Tejas






TWIN SEATER






tejas TWIN SEATER

LOOKS pretty good to me to be honest

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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> cock pit of Tejas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TWIN SEATER
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tejas TWIN SEATER
> 
> LOOKS pretty good to me to be honest


Look at how the cockpit is elevated at such a sharp angle.

the air intakes seems very odd for Delta design dont you think the cockpit is a bit tight?

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## Aliph Ahmed

A marriage between a Mig 21 and French Mirage = LCA.

A flawed design can only go so far. This is an Indian attempt of copying French Mirage resulting in a down syndromed version -

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## Lord Of Gondor

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Look at how the cockpit is elevated at such a sharp angle.
> 
> the air intakes seems very odd for Delta design dont you think the cockpit is a bit tight?


Looks are subjective but the cockpit size etc is perfect for Indian pilots, decided after detailed Anthropometric studies. Fits like a glove for Indian pilots.


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## Nomad40

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Looks are subjective but the cockpit size etc is perfect for Indian pilots, decided after detailed Anthropometric studies. Fits like a glove for Indian pilots.


so how big is a indian pilot ?

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## Armchair

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> so how big is a indian pilot ?



Abhinandan size.

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## The Maverick

Elevated cockpit is intentional for better view.
The cockpit is snug.
You ever sat in a high performance sports car versis people carrier 4x4 .
Fighter cockpits are suppose to be snug 
As for drag not sure 
But one thing is 100% the full.qaudruplex digital fbw unstable design makes the flying the best in South Asia. Why because it's the most modern technology with light composite build. Pure safety controlled by 4 computers you can't go wrong with turns and twists the computer takes over.indian computing at its best.

I actually love the design most modern fighters are some form.of delta be it j10 gripen typhoon or rafale or tejas.

The small.size and composite give a radar cross section of under 0.5-.075 metres like one half of your thunder f16 or our mirage.
Huge advantage bvr and wvr 
The fact that India went with non Russian engines ie USA engine gives me confidence longer life and less maintenance. I remember seeing your block one thunders they had Massive black smoke trails.
Finally the Israeli radar weapons and hmd gives me the confidence it's a very capable small.agile machine 

The best is yet to come 
Mark 1a with aesa. 
Mark2 bigger canard version of in 2030
And finally Amca the 5th generation twin engined fighter in 2035.

All result of the 3 decades of hard work of tejas programme 

You can't beat home grown


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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> so how big is a indian pilot ?









THAT IS THE SIZE of a PILOT




I think they look the same size as most pilots

don't you



The Maverick said:


> THAT IS THE SIZE of a PILOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think they look the same size as most pilots
> 
> don't you



The TEJAS looks fine in design to me BOYS better than the dated MIGS its replacing en mass

That picture is one of my favorites . on Tejas

several TEJAS parked light grey nose cone but darker camo on fusalage

its been wort the wait


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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> This article, which reproduces a speech at a conference by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar should lay to rest all those that doubt the capability of the Tejas. This is from the June-July 2018, that's 2 years ago. The No.45 Squadron is now even more experienced on the Tejas and more capabilities have been added on from the FOC.
> *
> So basically the Tejas, within months of being inducted into the IAF at IOC level, beat ALL other IAF fighters in the air to ground range scores and weapon delivery.* Pilots were hardly even experienced with it and they could beat experienced pilots on the Mirage-2000, Su-30MKI, Jaguars, MiG-27s and MiG-21s. Not sure if the MiG-29 (non-upgraded) was used in Exercise Gagan Shakti for air to ground strikes.
> 
> He also clearly articulated the IAF's backing for the Tejas Mk2, now called the Medium Weight Fighter (MWF). He clearly stated that it is bench-marked against the Mirage-2000, performance wise. Avionics will be far superior to what the current Mirage-2000I has.
> 
> MWF will begin to replace MiG-29s first (10 years from then - viz. 2028), then Jaguars (15 years from then- viz. 2032) and finally, Mirage-2000 (20 years from then - viz. 2038)
> 
> Article PDF link


this clearly means..IAF was wrong in doing delaying tactics in its induction..by now by any standards Tejas is at least 10-15 years behind schedule..(first flight 2001, 20 years ago)


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> THAT IS THE SIZE of a PILOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think they look the same size as most pilots
> 
> don't you
> 
> 
> 
> The TEJAS looks fine in design to me BOYS better than the dated MIGS its replacing en mass
> 
> That picture is one of my favorites . on Tejas
> 
> several TEJAS parked light grey nose cone but darker camo on fusalage
> 
> its been wort the wait


IAF Chief seems to be aroun 5ft 3in so i will make a logical guess and say that the cockpit is designed for an individual that is around 5'3"- 5'7" to be seated with comfort-----I would most definitely not fit but the Jf-17's cockpit seems very spacious I think it might be them most spacious cockpit In the PAF arsenal.



Armchair said:


> Abhinandan size.


I miss him

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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> IAF Chief seems to be aroun 5ft 3in so i will make a logical guess and say that the cockpit is designed for an individual that is around 5'3"- 5'7" to be seated with comfort-----I would most definitely not fit but the Jf-17's cockpit seems very spacious I think it might be them most spacious cockpit In the PAF arsenal.
> 
> 
> I miss him




MORE LIKE he is 5ft 6in 
The Guy next him I 5ft 8 
And cockpit is designed for people upto 6ft 3inch 

Even you said its EVLEVATED

SO make your mind bro



The Maverick said:


> MORE LIKE he is 5ft 6in
> The Guy next him I 5ft 8
> And cockpit is designed for people upto 6ft 3inch
> 
> Even you said its EVLEVATED
> 
> SO make your mind bro



see the cockpit from here


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> MORE LIKE he is 5ft 6in
> The Guy next him I 5ft 8
> And cockpit is designed for people upto 6ft 3inch
> 
> Even you said its EVLEVATED
> 
> SO make your mind bro


First off iaf chief is not 5'6" (I dont give a rats ***) and when did I say its elevated. I said what I saw in the picture and to me the cockpit seem's very snug any one with broad shoulders and beefy limbs will not be very comfortable.




IAF PILOT SHORT AND SMALL



The Maverick said:


> MORE LIKE he is 5ft 6in
> The Guy next him I 5ft 8
> And cockpit is designed for people upto 6ft 3inch
> 
> Even you said its EVLEVATED
> 
> SO make your mind bro
> 
> 
> 
> see the cockpit from here


Yep its small like most light fighters-----it's normal for the cockpit to be small because its a fighter jet.

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## The Maverick

The Maverick said:


> MORE LIKE he is 5ft 6in
> The Guy next him I 5ft 8
> And cockpit is designed for people upto 6ft 3inch
> 
> Even you said its EVLEVATED
> 
> SO make your mind bro
> 
> 
> 
> see the cockpit from here








JF17 cockpi


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> JF17 cockpi


NOW THAT'S A MANS COCKPIT.

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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> NOW THAT'S A MANS COCKPIT.





Mirage Battle Commander said:


> First off iaf chief is not 5'6" (I dont give a rats ***) and when did I say its elevated. I said what I saw in the picture and to me the cockpit seem's very snug any one with broad shoulders and beefy limbs will not be very comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF PILOT SHORT AND SMALL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VERSIS PAF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU JUST SPOUT RUBBISH
> 
> pilots are tall small slim and fat
> ugly not so ugly
> dark and light
> 
> and there is you proof
> 
> 
> 
> YEAH IF YOU SAY SO


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## Armchair

Even our ordinary Joe calls the IAF chief a small man. @joe Sherer


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## Nomad40

Bruh I said I DONT GIVE A RAT'S *** which mean I DO NOT CARE


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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Bruh I said I DONT GIVE A RAT'S *** which mean I DO NOT CARE




That's because your comments have no basis AND YOUR credibility is being busted

Here DIGEST THESE






The pilots taller shorter darker lighter mish mash

The helicopter the very own indengious Dhruv we now have over 150 serving in all three services






over 100 ordered for Army & Airforce india,s very on designed indengious light atack helicopter
What you saying re the cockpit 






more cockpit side veiws from tejas stunning close up shot. Lovely build quality 
snug ready and light and nimble


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> That's because your comments have no basis AND YOUR credibility is being busted
> 
> Here DIGEST THESE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilots taller shorter darker lighter mish mash
> 
> The helicopter the very own indengious Dhruv we now have over 150 serving in all three services
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> over 100 ordered for Army & Airforce india,s very on designed indengious light atack helicopter
> What you saying re the cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> more cockpit side veiws from tejas stunning close up shot. Lovely build quality
> snug ready and light and nimble


Okay let me talk to Man to Man

Tejas Cockpit small-----No problem look at F-16 cockpit!!! I think you dont know how to make assertion to your argument. Pilots are human and Humans come in all different shapes, shades and sizes so dont get ant inferiority complex People are People.

India is Making Helos Nice---Every country has the Right to Defence.

India has Private companies to manufacture and assemble air craft and this was established very early.

The Problem with India is that it always wants to engage in "I am better than you" "Affirm and praise me" rather than making good use of its stuff or abilities. This is the reason why Pakistan will always beat India. 

Jf-17 is a world's first example of Air-Force designing, manufacturing and delivering World class Fighter jet in healthy numbers. Pakistani Fighter Pilots and Engineers Working Day and night to accomplish a never tried/ though of task which makes JF-17 a remarkable Learning tool for the World to see and understand cost Effective development from scratch of both Fighter and Industry. 

LCA is a good plane but can you explain what is Indian in the Plane?


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## JohnWick

The Maverick said:


> I actually love the design most modern fighters are some form.of delta be it j10 gripen typhoon or rafale or tejas.


All the modren fighter i.e F-22 F-35 J-31 Su-57
And Su-35 are not in the form of delta....And also all the battle proven fighters F-16 F-15 F-14 F-4 F-5 and even mig series are also not delta....don't disperse misinformation here on pdf.



The Maverick said:


> The best is yet to come
> Mark 1a with aesa.
> Mark2 bigger canard version of in 2030
> And finally Amca the 5th generation twin engined fighter in 2035.


After 40 years the best has yet to come.
While in world outside India after 15 years the fighter programmes are completed.in PAC we also has started to overhauling jft.



The Maverick said:


> more cockpit side veiws from tejas stunning close up shot. Lovely build quality
> snug ready and light and nimble


In fact is an just a little modified m2k old design with an ugly tumour like refuelling probe right on the face.



The Maverick said:


>


As far as your Cockpit delusion is concerned here
Is your Raptor Su-30mki where pilot sits deep inside cockpit.










MirageBlue said:


> Lol..Even your basics are so poor, what can one say?
> 
> You don't even understand the difference between probe/drogue refueling and boom refueling and you're arguing with me.
> 
> F-22, F-15, F-16, F-35A, etc. ALL are designed for BOOM refueling. In the case of boom refueling, the pilot just has to bring the aircraft close to the tanker and the boom operator on the tanker has the job of connecting the boom and conducting the refueling.
> 
> In the case of probe/drogue refueling, the pilot of the fighter needs to position the probe exactly where the drogue is. So the positioning of the probe is of utmost importance. Hence the position of the probe on the Tejas, Mirage-2000, Rafale, etc. is right in front of the canopy. F/A-18 is one of the few American jets that has probe/drogue refueling capability and hence it's probe is positioned as shown below- in front of the pilot. Only good thing for the Hornet is that it is a retractable probe since there is space inside the nose to retract the probe into.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think for you, it's Tejas, it's Indian, and hence it's bad. Simple. I get that. Such people are best avoided, since I am here to engage in sensible discussions, not the kind of rhetoric you engage in.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get it, do you?
> 
> the F-35 has a RETRACTABLE probe. That means you need space in the NOSE (behind the RADOME where the RADAR is), to be able to fit the retracting probe into. the F-35 or ANY fighter that has a Retractable probe, will have to position it away from the nose UNLESS the nose has enough volume to fit the probe into, like in the case of the F/A-18 and Su-30.
> 
> On the Typhoon, MiG-29, Jaguar, F-35B, et.all, the retractable probe means that there is simply no option but to position it sideways, NEXT TO the pilot's eye line, where there is volume available in the fuselage to fit it. Understand??
> 
> I know all this will fly right over your head, but explaining it nevertheless.


You have a brain disease .....You can't understand the simple english I was only saying that HAL can't integrate that type of
good looking refuelling systems in Tejas....and put a non retractable refueling ugly looking probe right infront of tejas's face.


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## mig25

JohnWick said:


> As far as your Cockpit delusion is concerned here
> Is your Raptor Su-30mki where pilot sits deep inside cockpit



The pics you posted were all taken from under the aircraft and hence does not corroborate your theory.

Check the pics below:


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## Nomad40

mig25 said:


> The pics you posted were all taken from under the aircraft and hence does not corroborate your theory.
> 
> Check the pics below:


Thanks for providing these images, Have you any knowledge about the RCS of Su-30 and CAP/AA configuration.

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## mig25

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Thanks for providing these images, Have you any knowledge about the RCS of Su-30 and CAP/AA configuration.


I do not. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable on the MKIs may answer you queries.

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## Nomad40

mig25 said:


> I do not. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable on the MKIs may answer you queries.


Do you know how many squadrons of su-30MKI IAF has on the western theater?

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## JohnWick

mig25 said:


> The pics you posted were all taken from under the aircraft and hence does not corroborate your theory.
> 
> Check the pics below:


These pics also proved thanks fpr sharing in the last one the pilot sits deep in the cockpit when canopy is closed.


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## The Maverick

Your comparing cockpits of light fighter with heavy fighter .what

.about we designed developed and manfsctured a world class jf17 and inducted it in numbers.

Chengdu of China designed it you people told them what you needed.
You assemble and overhaul it now.
Block3 is being tested in chengdu why because you have no facilities . No shame in that you are small aero power limited resources
World class ....errr ok if you say so.
But China won't be inducting
It's budget plane for cash strapped. Air forces in Africa hence my sarcasm about world class.
we know where you stand in aero space engineering and it on a global level
You do what you can within your small financial ability the rest you turn.to China
And only China.
Working with Europeans is too costly and China is your only option for now

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## Raj-Hindustani

The Maverick said:


> Your comparing cockpits of light fighter with heavy fighter .what
> 
> .about we designed developed and manfsctured a world class jf17 and inducted it in numbers.
> 
> Chengdu of China designed it you people told them what you needed.
> You assemble and overhaul it now.
> Block3 is being tested in chengdu why because you have no facilities . No shame in that you are small aero power limited resources
> World class ....errr ok if you say so.
> But China won't be inducting
> It's budget plane for cash strapped. Air forces in Africa hence my sarcasm about world class.
> we know where you stand in aero space engineering and it on a global level
> You do what you can within your small financial ability the rest you turn.to China
> And only China.
> Working with Europeans is too costly and China is your only option for now



You don't have any idea about cockpit, isn't?


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## Fighting Falcon 01

The Maverick said:


> Your comparing cockpits of light fighter with heavy fighter .what
> 
> .about we designed developed and manfsctured a world class jf17 and inducted it in numbers.
> 
> Chengdu of China designed it you people told them what you needed.
> You assemble and overhaul it now.
> Block3 is being tested in chengdu why because you have no facilities . No shame in that you are small aero power limited resources
> World class ....errr ok if you say so.
> But China won't be inducting
> It's budget plane for cash strapped. Air forces in Africa hence my sarcasm about world class.
> we know where you stand in aero space engineering and it on a global level
> You do what you can within your small financial ability the rest you turn.to China
> And only China.
> Working with Europeans is too costly and China is your only option for now


We know where you stand in developing fighter aircraft let's take example of INDIGENOUS TEJAS 
Engine = American 
Design = Mirage copy 
Project time = 40 years 
Avionics = Israeli 
Radar = Israeli 
Weapon package = Russian and Indian 
So what is india making ??? Where is the so called decades of experience??? In 40 years you show 16 aircraft and say you guys are experts ? Maybe experts at failing

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## The Maverick

No we are not experts that is USA France UK Russia 

Yes tejas has
USA engine why it's low maintenance better than Russia cheaper than France
Israeli radar it's good and cheaper than France they are they are our strategic alloys
Russian and Israeli weapons yes bes5 to have variety choice

Lca was late but did not fail .
It's paper specs are generation ahead of your block 1 and 2 thunder. 
Your block 3 looks on par too our mark1a 
Lucky you have China improving it for you 
India is doing this on its own in India using our own limited skill set
But hey one step at time

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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> Your comparing cockpits of light fighter with heavy fighter .what
> 
> .about we designed developed and manfsctured a world class jf17 and inducted it in numbers.
> 
> Chengdu of China designed it you people told them what you needed.
> You assemble and overhaul it now.
> Block3 is being tested in chengdu why because you have no facilities . No shame in that you are small aero power limited resources
> World class ....errr ok if you say so.
> But China won't be inducting
> It's budget plane for cash strapped. Air forces in Africa hence my sarcasm about world class.
> we know where you stand in aero space engineering and it on a global level
> You do what you can within your small financial ability the rest you turn.to China
> And only China.
> Working with Europeans is too costly and China is your only option for now


Yes we worked with Chinese company for the manufacturing part. I see you hindustanis come up with retarded arguments, A fighter is inducted into in air force when a requirement is there for it and the PLAAF had no contribution in the jf-17. I suggested you some thing about the problem with you people it seems that you have ignored it-------- At least we did not copy a french design put some Israel avionics, Russian weapons and an american engine and neither did we take 30 years to develop a some what combat capable plane and call it our own. oh and dont get me started on the FCS, Flight computer, Software and the stupid draggy design. What is Indian about LCA ? 


Frick yeah every weapon system on the jf-17 was developed by us with the help of china man, Frick yeah Every avionics inside the jf-17 is our OWN Frick yeah we developed the Radar with the Chinese, Frick yeah we Upgraded and modified and redesign components of the Russian rd-33 and rd-93 was born.

Frick yeah we sold planes to Nigeria and Myanmar-----Your air force and navy dont even have the confidence in the LCA plane. 

Frick yeah jf-17 is cheaper than Western fighters that does the same job for 3 times the price. 


1 squadron of LCA in 30 YEARS dont forget always under estimate Pakistan!





here is a small inspiration picture-----so your tiny mind can digest.



The Maverick said:


> No we are not experts that is USA France UK Russia
> 
> Yes tejas has
> USA engine why it's low maintenance better than Russia cheaper than France
> Israeli radar it's good and cheaper than France they are they are our strategic alloys
> Russian and Israeli weapons yes bes5 to have variety choice
> 
> Lca was late but did not fail .
> It's paper specs are generation ahead of your block 1 and 2 thunder.
> Your block 3 looks on par too our mark1a
> Lucky you have China improving it for you
> India is doing this on its own in India using our own limited skill set
> But hey one step at time


so now your Dumb Asz saying Tejas despite being 2 decades late and taking 32 years more than the JF-17 to develop you say tha it is a generation Ahead than block 2 jf-17? so you are stating that the Teja is a 5th Generation platform what can the tejas do? you have 1 only 1 squadron of tejas and your air force is stuck with it you know your air force is given the option to go for another a fighter they will do it in half a heart beat.


If a person takes 4 years to graduate uni vs a person takes 20 years to graduate from the same program-----will you call it a success. where was Tejas on 27 ?------- In the production line or parked in some hanger because Pilots and higher command had no authority in the plane. 

Limited skill set----do you lack the cognitive ability to process information, India has a much bigger aviation industry than Pakistan. HAL has outsorced all aspect of the project, HAL before Tejas had the experience of Murat, trainers, and su-30mki-----were you not the one that showed me the pictures of Indian Helos and stealth helos.


JF-17 was par of the First strike Package.

Jf-17 was Part of the Air superiority Package and engaged Indian Mirage 2000-----BVR lock M2000 and like cowards IAF ran away. 

JF-17 is like our F-16-----your pilots tremble in fear, You know what the IAF Pilots radio in when they see the CAP/ Air interdiction response? 

"NO JOY" "BINGO" "BUGOUT" "SICK NORAD" "SICK" "SKIP IT"

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## The Maverick

Plaaf have no requirement for thunders because that role is performed by j10 single engined fighter 

The flanker both Russian supplied and Chinese copys provide the twin engined roles ie load distance etc

Chengdu did the work 
Gave you the labs workshops materials radar testing weapons testing wind tunnels etc 
Block three is in China... Why 

Hey let us enjoy our moment tejas is late 
It's compact it'.has Israeli and USA technology not a bad thing in my mind .
We are proud and even you have to agree it's better than mig21 and mig27.
And it's our own.
I know it's not rafale or f35 or even f16 but it's here drag or no drag and it works it's safe it has
hmd hobs combo
Glass cockpit
Bvr.
Laser guidance 
Ew suites and jammers 

Enjoy the pictures your thunder looks nicer in the air shots at ground level it looks dated design 

Sorry just my opinion

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Actually tejas will need 5-10 yrs to be in good numbers & fully integrated to be used extensively as front line fighter.
If by that time pak also deploys JF 3rd block in good numbers I would consider them equal. (Numbers matters a lot when diff of permance is 10-20%)

Only diff is jf can't go to block 4 cause of old frame design. & so does tejas as well.

That's why I feel iaf did right thing to let go of tejas mk2. There's a limit to the upgradation .

So if pak doesnt start with new frame after 20 years it would be way behind india. Rest time will tell.

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## The Maverick

Its a good move that india is moving through the blocks quicker than PAF

THEY now HAVE 120 BLOCK 1 & 2 that lack even basic HMD or HOBS not to mention airframe FCS that is class of 1980S FIGHTERS ie no composite in airframe and full quadruplx FBW system but single digital FBW only. 

They can update them to block 3 I think BUT not sure on cost and time frame


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## The Maverick

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Do you know how many squadrons of su-30MKI IAF has on the western theater?




14 Squadrons in 3 commands = 19 fighters in each 

North command facing china 3 air bases 6 sdqs. 

South Command = 4 sqds 

Western command facing PAK border 4 sqds 

There are 270 su30mki in service now 






Love it su30mki with LCA in tandem

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## MirageBlue

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Look at how the cockpit is elevated at such a sharp angle.
> 
> the air intakes seems very odd for Delta design dont you think the cockpit is a bit tight?



Of course it is elevated at an angle.

The IAF had very specific requirements about the rear seat pilot having visibility out of the front of the cockpit. In fact, in a Gripen D, the rear seater has almost no frontal visibility at all thanks to the fact that the cockpit is not angled.

The air intakes are perfectly fine and have NOTHING to do with delta wings. I would like you to please explain the physics of what those air intakes have to do with the delta wings. That would probably explain your own understanding better.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> so how big is a indian pilot ?



Not much bigger than most Asian pilots, including other South Asians. Anthropometric data for the 90th percentile Indian male was used to design the cockpit, the distances from the knobs, switches, MFDs, rudder pedals, head clearance from canopy, etc.

India's premier Design institute, the National Institute of Design in Ahmedabad was directly involved in the ergonomics of the Tejas cockpit as well as the design of jigs, sims, etc.. Those who are from India know how prestigious the NID is and how good they are.

article link



Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> We know where you stand in developing fighter aircraft let's take example of INDIGENOUS TEJAS
> Engine = American
> Design = Mirage copy
> Project time = 40 years
> Avionics = Israeli
> Radar = Israeli
> Weapon package = Russian and Indian
> So what is india making ??? Where is the so called decades of experience??? In 40 years you show 16 aircraft and say you guys are experts ? Maybe experts at failing



Design is not a Mirage copy. Dassault was a consultant for HAL in the early 1990s and yes they helped in the selection of the configuration. No big deal. The work was done by the 300 plus HAL engineers posted at Dassault for this. If you think that a mid-set compound delta wing is the same as a low set delta wing, then that's your problem really.

Neither the airframe nor the wings are anything similar to the Mirage. I could say that the JF-17's wing is a direct copy of the F-16 and the airframe is derived from the Super-7 which itself was derived from the MiG-21. Tell me whether that's right or wrong.

Project work began in 1993 with official sanction and funds granted. Before that it was simply about establishing ADA and the facilities required.

Weapons we'll integrate whatever we want that is available whether from Russia, Israel, Europe or our own. Crucially we can integrate on our own, without need to get some other OEM to do it at high cost and with the possibility of being denied permission. Going forward, most weapons will be indigenous designs. We own the source codes for the radar, the software onboard so integration is a lot easier than it was for ANY other design in the IAF.

We own the wind tunnels where all wind tunnel testing is done. We own the anechoic chambers where RCS and electromagnetic spectrum testing is done. We own the Lightning test facility where lightning testing is done.

Most avionics are Indian, except for new software defined radios and HMDS, Litening LDP and a few LRUs. Radar is Israeli back end with MMR antenna which is indigenous. And we'll get the indigenous Uttam AESA radar in the second block of the Tejas Mk1A. MFDs are by Samtel, which is India, HUD is from CSIO which is Indian, the RWR is Indian. The crucial computers on board are all Indian, with all software being written by Indians. The FCS is 100% Indian. Actuators are from Moog in USA, but now new indigenous actuators are also being tested. Mk1A may well have those.

The composites are indigenous, the jigs, tools and assembly are indigenous. The ground support equipment, the simulators, the testing and training equipment and software are indigenous.

The Brake Management System, Fuel Management System, Fire Suppression System, the software that ties all of these together with the Mission Computer and various other computers is indigenous. EW system may get SPJ from Israel, which is fine, it works great.

The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes.

The day you Pakistanis actually do something yourself rather than taking whatever China gives and calling it yours, you'll know the ACTUAL amount of effort that goes into designing and building a genuine 4th gen fighter.

Compared to all this, JF-17 is 99% Chinese. 1% is Turkish, thanks to Aselsan LDP. What is Pakistani design in it? Zero.

Come back and criticize when the Project Azm fighter is ready and inducted into service with this much level of Pakistani content. Or even when you can design and develop a JF-17 Block 4 on your own with minimal Chinese involvement.



JohnWick said:


> These pics also proved thanks fpr sharing in the last one the pilot sits deep in the cockpit when canopy is closed.



No he doesn't. In fact he sits even higher than the front seater and with frontal visibility only matched by the Su-30MKI.






Here is a video of the current USAF Chief of Staff Gen Goldfein, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.

USAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer

and here is a video of the French Air Force Chief Genearl Lenata, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.

French AF Chief flies in Tejas trainer

IAF ACM Arup Raha, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater. 

IAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer

All 3 videos show the excellent visibility in both front and rear seats of a Tejas trainer.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Do you know how many squadrons of su-30MKI IAF has on the western theater?



What has that got to do with anything being discussed here? IAF has Su-30 squadrons on both Western and Eastern front as well as a new Su-30 squadron, No.222 'Tigersharks' based out of Southern Air Command, tasked with carrying Brahmos-A ALCMs.



JohnWick said:


> All the modren fighter i.e F-22 F-35 J-31 Su-57
> And Su-35 are not in the form of delta....And also all the battle proven fighters F-16 F-15 F-14 F-4 F-5 and even mig series are also not delta....don't disperse misinformation here on pdf.
> 
> 
> After 40 years the best has yet to come.
> While in world outside India after 15 years the fighter programmes are completed.in PAC we also has started to overhauling jft.
> 
> 
> In fact is an just a little modified m2k old design with an ugly tumour like refuelling probe right on the face.
> 
> 
> As far as your Cockpit delusion is concerned here
> Is your Raptor Su-30mki where pilot sits deep inside cockpit.
> View attachment 637104
> View attachment 637105
> 
> 
> 
> You have a brain disease .....You can't understand the simple english I was only saying that HAL can't integrate that type of
> good looking refuelling systems in Tejas....and put a non retractable refueling ugly looking probe right infront of tejas's face.



This is the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between drogue/probe refueling and boom refueling. LOL. 

He wants a "Good looking refueling system"! LOL. And then he claims others are stupid and have brain disease. 

Arguing with a person with this limited knowledge is a waste of time. It's like teaching calculus to guy whose mathematics level is limited to counting on his fingers. Sab kuch iske uppar se nikal jaayega. 

Go on, live in your own fantasy land. Your opinion doesn't make one bit of a difference in the real world.

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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> this clearly means..IAF was wrong in doing delaying tactics in its induction..by now by any standards Tejas is at least 10-15 years behind schedule..(first flight 2001, 20 years ago)



Yes, to a great degree they were not keen on inducting the Tejas at IOC level. And HAL is also responsible in the slow buildup to the production numbers that were required, especially for the IOC fighters.

It is not 10 years behind schedule. I would estimate it at being ~3-5 years behind schedule. Tejas LCA first flew on January 4, 2001 and entered service on July 1, 2016, that is 15 years from first flight. But it had reached IOC-1 in 2013 itself. I really wish that the IAF has pushed for earlier service entry with IOC-1 level fighters. The software updates could have been made as more testing and certification was done. But the IAF was extremely cautious and refused to take the IOC-1 level Tejas fighters into service.

Check Gripen A, Eurofighter and Rafale first flight and service entry dates.

I won't even go into how many prototypes crashed for the Gripen and Eurofighter during testing, before they entered service. 

*
Gripen A prototype- First flight , Dec9, 1988
Gripen A- Entry into service , 1997 

9 years from first flight of prototype to entry into service

Eurofighter - First flight, March 27, 1994
Eurofighter Tranche 1 - Entry into service, 4 August, 2003

9 years from first flight to entry into service in the form of Tranche 1 Eurofighters which were very limited in capability

Rafale A- First flight, July 4, 1986
Rafale M- Entry into service, 2004
Rafale A- Entry into service, 2006

18 years after first flight, Rafale M entered service. Rafale A entered service 20 years from first flight into the French Air Force.
*

If one does a little bit of research, a lot of false information can be easily disproved.

A great picture for Tejas and IAF fans.

No.45 Squadron Tejas Mk1 fighters at Sulur AFS, during the ceremony for No.18 Squadron's resurrection.







Image credit- Vayu Aerospace Review on Twitter.

To those people that talk about the Tejas wing, here is an image that shows it's shape.






It's called a COMPOUND delta, not just a delta wing. Now go do some research as to what a compound delta wing does and what advantages it may offer. 

See the huge wing surface area? It means the Tejas has the LOWEST WING LOADING of any fighter jet, apart from the Typhoon.

Low Wing Loading contributes DIRECTLY to a very agile fighter due to the amount of lift it generates. The higher the wing loading, the more the fighter is actually like a bomb truck. 

Lower wing loading means lower stall speed, tighter turns, low take off roll distances and much lower landing speeds. Add to that an excellent Fly By Wire FCS that never allows the pilot to exceed any limits and automatically takes over control if the pilot goes near to or below the stall speed and you have a top notch pilot friendly fighter.

Another image of Tejas Mk1 FOC (SP-17) with Tejas Division General Manager Yogindra. He has had a very big hand to play in the setting up of the assembly line for the Tejas. Came from a very poor family, with 5 other siblings and his father being a cook selling snacks on the roadside. Studied hard, went on to do his Mechanical Engg. from NIE and M.Tech from IIT Kanpur and then joined HAL in 1985. It's amazing how far he has come from his very humble beginnings.

article link

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## MirageBlue

In other news, a third Tejas assembly line is to be set up. It will first be used to manufacture the 8 Tejas trainers that are currently on order plus the 10 from the 83 order that is soon to be placed.

Not sure what it's capacity will be, but hopefully will allow more than 16 Tejas fighters to be assembled per year.






Another image of the Tejas (LSP-8) with the refueling probe, alongside a Su-30MKI. These 2 fighters will be working closely together in the future.

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## Nomad40

MirageBlue said:


> Of course it is elevated at an angle.
> 
> The IAF had very specific requirements about the rear seat pilot having visibility out of the front of the cockpit. In fact, in a Gripen D, the rear seater has almost no frontal visibility at all thanks to the fact that the cockpit is not angled.
> 
> The air intakes are perfectly fine and have NOTHING to do with delta wings. I would like you to please explain the physics of what those air intakes have to do with the delta wings. That would probably explain your own understanding better.
> 
> 
> 
> Not much bigger than most Asian pilots, including other South Asians. Anthropometric data for the 90th percentile Indian male was used to design the cockpit, the distances from the knobs, switches, MFDs, rudder pedals, head clearance from canopy, etc.
> 
> India's premier Design institute, the National Institute of Design in Ahmedabad was directly involved in the ergonomics of the Tejas cockpit as well as the design of jigs, sims, etc.. Those who are from India know how prestigious the NID is and how good they are.
> 
> article link
> 
> 
> 
> Design is not a Mirage copy. Dassault was a consultant for HAL in the early 1990s and yes they helped in the selection of the configuration. No big deal. The work was done by the 300 plus HAL engineers posted at Dassault for this. If you think that a mid-set compound delta wing is the same as a low set delta wing, then that's your problem really.
> 
> Neither the airframe nor the wings are anything similar to the Mirage. I could say that the JF-17's wing is a direct copy of the F-16 and the airframe is derived from the Super-7 which itself was derived from the MiG-21. Tell me whether that's right or wrong.
> 
> Project work began in 1993 with official sanction and funds granted. Before that it was simply about establishing ADA and the facilities required.
> 
> Weapons we'll integrate whatever we want that is available whether from Russia, Israel, Europe or our own. Crucially we can integrate on our own, without need to get some other OEM to do it at high cost and with the possibility of being denied permission. Going forward, most weapons will be indigenous designs. We own the source codes for the radar, the software onboard so integration is a lot easier than it was for ANY other design in the IAF.
> 
> We own the wind tunnels where all wind tunnel testing is done. We own the anechoic chambers where RCS and electromagnetic spectrum testing is done. We own the Lightning test facility where lightning testing is done.
> 
> Most avionics are Indian, except for new software defined radios and HMDS, Litening LDP and a few LRUs. Radar is Israeli back end with MMR antenna which is indigenous. And we'll get the indigenous Uttam AESA radar in the second block of the Tejas Mk1A. MFDs are by Samtel, which is India, HUD is from CSIO which is Indian, the RWR is Indian. The crucial computers on board are all Indian, with all software being written by Indians. The FCS is 100% Indian. Actuators are from Moog in USA, but now new indigenous actuators are also being tested. Mk1A may well have those.
> 
> The composites are indigenous, the jigs, tools and assembly are indigenous. The ground support equipment, the simulators, the testing and training equipment and software are indigenous.
> 
> The Brake Management System, Fuel Management System, Fire Suppression System, the software that ties all of these together with the Mission Computer and various other computers is indigenous. EW system may get SPJ from Israel, which is fine, it works great.
> 
> The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes.
> 
> The day you Pakistanis actually do something yourself rather than taking whatever China gives and calling it yours, you'll know the ACTUAL amount of effort that goes into designing and building a genuine 4th gen fighter.
> 
> Compared to all this, JF-17 is 99% Chinese. 1% is Turkish, thanks to Aselsan LDP. What is Pakistani design in it? Zero.
> 
> Come back and criticize when the Project Azm fighter is ready and inducted into service with this much level of Pakistani content. Or even when you can design and develop a JF-17 Block 4 on your own with minimal Chinese involvement.
> 
> 
> 
> No he doesn't. In fact he sits even higher than the front seater and with frontal visibility only matched by the Su-30MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a video of the current USAF Chief of Staff Gen Goldfein, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.
> 
> USAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer
> 
> and here is a video of the French Air Force Chief Genearl Lenata, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.
> 
> French AF Chief flies in Tejas trainer
> 
> IAF ACM Arup Raha, flying in the rear seat of a Tejas twin seater.
> 
> IAF Chief of Staff flies in Tejas trainer
> 
> All 3 videos show the excellent visibility in both front and rear seats of a Tejas trainer.
> 
> 
> 
> What has that got to do with anything being discussed here? IAF has Su-30 squadrons on both Western and Eastern front as well as a new Su-30 squadron, No.222 'Tigersharks' based out of Southern Air Command, tasked with carrying Brahmos-A ALCMs.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between drogue/probe refueling and boom refueling. LOL.
> 
> He wants a "Good looking refueling system"! LOL. And then he claims others are stupid and have brain disease.
> 
> Arguing with a person with this limited knowledge is a waste of time. It's like teaching calculus to guy whose mathematics level is limited to counting on his fingers. Sab kuch iske uppar se nikal jaayega.
> 
> Go on, live in your own fantasy land. Your opinion doesn't make one bit of a difference in the real world.


Good insight at last a sensible reply.

"The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes"

I always ask before I comment on a person's intellect on a certain subject--------I think I know a thing or two about 4th Generation Fighters. I dont comment bluntly or out of spite but when I say there is room for improvement in the Aerodynamic design of the Tejas than there is. 

I know a lot more than members in this forum think------The only thing is I am lazy and I dont have the time to type because I Study, work and have other commitments.

Lets talk su-30mki, Do you know the stranded combat configuration of the su-30 in the IAF and what stirke packages the Indian Air force has in store for an offensive air interdiction role.


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## The Maverick

Mirage blue thank you for your brilliant post.
It amazes me how shear hatred and jealousy make people post utter garbage on tejas . India has battled hard including it's own air force and leaders to get a wonderful machine into service. Our pilots were risking their lives in cold war relic migs and we have designed developed the safest 4th generation fighter on the planet.
Be proud and happy it looks amazing

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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> A great picture for Tejas .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image credit- Vayu Aerospace Review on Twitter.
> 
> To those people that talk about the Tejas wing, here is an image that shows it's shape.
> 
> 
> 
> article link



Oh my god 9 tejas in that line up looks amazing


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## anathema

ziaulislam said:


> this clearly means..IAF was wrong in doing delaying tactics in its induction..by now by any standards Tejas is at least 10-15 years behind schedule..(first flight 2001, 20 years ago)



First portion is true ! IAF did not give any importance to home made product when it had access to the entire global weapons bazaar. Infact there were articles written calling Tejas a '3 legged cheetah'. However the entire narrative began to change post ganganshakti excercises. That single excercise showed the real capability of home grown fighter and what it can do with it. I must say - after that there is no looking back. Inter services gunnery competitions further validated the performance of Tejas.

Your second point about 10-15 yrs - not at all. You can check contemporary fighters.


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## MirageBlue

Twitter post by former MiG-21 and Mirage-2000 pilot, former Group Captain in the IAF.

I think this should rest the case about how good the Tejas is. First ever competition that Tejas participated in, it bagged the trophy in most disciplines. Beating Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000 as well as Jaguar and MiG-21s.

Apart from this in Exercise Gagan Shakti it scored the best range scores and was the most accurate platform. 



> *Let me tell you as a pilot
> Measure of performance of an aeroplane is my yardstick
> We have annual weapon delivery competition in the #IAF
> 
> In the first ever competition that #Tejas participated in, it bagged trophy in most of the disciplines
> I rest my case
> *



Link

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## MirageBlue

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Good insight at last a sensible reply.
> 
> "The problem is most people like you don't know much about the hundreds of systems that are required for a 4th gen fighter, but think that just looking at it externally you can tell what goes on inside and behind the scenes"
> 
> I always ask before I comment on a person's intellect on a certain subject--------I think I know a thing or two about 4th Generation Fighters. I dont comment bluntly or out of spite but when I say there is room for improvement in the Aerodynamic design of the Tejas than there is.



There is room for improvement in the aerodynamics of the Tejas Mk1 but it is not based on eye-balling pictures. Trust me, no one is that smart. All the aerodynamic refinements are being studied based on detailed CFD studies and wind tunnel testing. 

If you (and I don't know your background) think that you can find out room for improvements in the Tejas design simply by looking at pictures, what makes you think that the scientists and engineers that are actually working on it are not aware of it?

All of the issues that relate to aerodynamic refinements are being addressed in the Tejas Mk2 design. 

Nevertheless, the current aerodynamic configuration is still doing wonders as far as it's performance in the IAF is concerned, which is why the IAF is trying to get the 83 Tejas Mk1A order signed soon.

Believe me, no one in the IAF is complaining about it's range or endurance or it's agility. 

What matters most is 
-the availability of the fighter, 
-the reliability in the air and on the ground, plus ease of diagnosing issues and fixing them
-the quality of the avionics and software on board, 
-the ability to detect and put weapons on target, 
-while keeping the pilot safe at all times. 

And in those respects, so far the Tejas Mk1 is a stand-out performer. The Tejas Mk1A will only improve on it.

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## ziaulislam

anathema said:


> First portion is true ! IAF did not give any importance to home made product when it had access to the entire global weapons bazaar. Infact there were articles written calling Tejas a '3 legged cheetah'. However the entire narrative began to change post ganganshakti excercises. That single excercise showed the real capability of home grown fighter and what it can do with it. I must say - after that there is no looking back. Inter services gunnery competitions further validated the performance of Tejas.
> 
> Your second point about 10-15 yrs - not at all. You can check contemporary fighters.


Which one?
F35, F16, gripen, tornado, jf17, j10..? Rafale?


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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> Twitter post by former MiG-21 and Mirage-2000 pilot, former Group Captain in the IAF.
> 
> I think this should rest the case about how good the Tejas is. First ever competition that Tejas participated in, it bagged the trophy in most disciplines. Beating Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000 as well as Jaguar and MiG-21s.
> 
> Apart from this in Exercise Gagan Shakti it scored the best range scores and was the most accurate platform.
> 
> 
> 
> Link



WHAT IS EVEN MORE IMPRESSIVE ……. These results occurred with the IOC fighter … AND not the FOC mark1 fighter.

As we are MOVING TO MARK1A after just 40 planes imagine how good the gagan shakti performance would be with mark1a improvements including AESA radar Elta 2052. 

* Somebody said somewhere when Mark1a comes into service it will be the best BVR PLATFORM IAF fields or at worst second only to Rafale 

The reason being the RCS is only 0.5- 0.75 max 
Aesa radar from Israel 
New longer range BVRs Astra & Derby extended range. 

Until of course the su30mki is upgraded to super MKI


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Which one?
> F35, F16, gripen, tornado, jf17, j10..? Rafale?



Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter.

Check their first flight dates and their entry into service dates. Gripen and Eurofighter are in the 9 year range whereas Rafale is in the 20 year range. Check my earlier post on their dates.

All modern 4th gen fighters with full FBW FCS and composite airframes have taken that long to develop. JF-17 doesn't fall in that category since it had a basic FBW in both Block 1 and 2 and it is pretty much all alloy in construction.


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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter.
> 
> Check their first flight dates and their entry into service dates. Gripen and Eurofighter are in the 9 year range whereas Rafale is in the 20 year range. Check my earlier post on their dates.
> 
> All modern 4th gen fighters with full FBW FCS and composite airframes have taken that long to develop. JF-17 doesn't fall in that category since it had a basic FBW in both Block 1 and 2 and it is pretty much all alloy in construction.


None of these plan saw 20 years delays..
What are you pointing at..rafale was just 5 years behind schedule?

That too because it was no longer needed when soviet union fell. 
you mean LCA wasnt needed too..good to know..
Gripen development was slowed for the same reason.


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> None of these plan saw 20 years delays..
> What are you pointing at..rafale was just 5 years behind schedule?
> 
> That too because it was no longer needed when soviet union fell.
> you mean LCA wasnt needed too..good to know..
> Gripen development was slowed for the same reason.



Nor did the Tejas. It flew for the first time in 2001, entered service in 2016. 15 years from first flight to service entry.

Compared to 9 years for Gripen, Eurofighter and 20 years for Rafale.

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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> Nor did the Tejas. It flew for the first time in 2001, entered service in 2016. 15 years from first flight to service entry.
> 
> Compared to 9 years for Gripen, Eurofighter and 20 years for Rafale.



It was late for what purpose 
Yes too late to fight in a war against fifth generation fighters like f35 or late 4th generation fighters like typhoon rafale 

But just in time to fight low end 4th generation. Fighters like thunders or mid life f16. And be more than a match 

We are fighting Pakistan at best China not Israel or usa thank God 

Tejas is perfect it's not too late


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## Raj-Hindustani

The Maverick said:


> It was late for what purpose
> Yes too late to fight in a war against fifth generation fighters like f35 or late 4th generation fighters like typhoon rafale
> 
> But just in time to fight low end 4th generation. Fighters like thunders or mid life f16. And be more than a match
> 
> We are fighting Pakistan at best China not Israel or usa thank God
> 
> Tejas is perfect it's not too late



NO, you can't defend on timeline.

Yes, it is around 5-6 years delayed. I am agreed that India didn't have the infrastructure to make 4th generation fighter plane but still, due to baabus and work culture in our organization. It got delayed..

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## The Maverick

It's got delayed is true by 5 or 6 years I agree with you 

But it's not too late to be combat effective

On paper it's the most hi tech advanced war plane we have bar the rafale. 

Please note I said advanced not combat effective or combat proven . Combat proven can happen after years of service 

But the flight control the cockpit the radar the weapon s choice the hmd hobs the composite airframe makes it's excellent and better than mig29 mirage2000 even mki 

Like I said it's s small hi tech computer

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## Nilgiri

The Maverick said:


> It's got delayed is true by 5 or 6 years I agree with you
> 
> But it's not too late to be combat effective
> 
> On paper it's the most hi tech advanced war plane we have bar the rafale.
> 
> Please note I said advanced not combat effective or combat proven . Combat proven can happen after years of service
> 
> But the flight control the cockpit the radar the weapon s choice the hmd hobs the composite airframe makes it's excellent and better than mig29 mirage2000 even mki
> 
> Like I said it's s small hi tech computer



Important thing is its out there now and we can now use this as the focal base for "real" application based military aerospace sector development going forward...and this help gestate future projects from the get go.

Its really about developing and inculcating the whole network of things (so you got something you can test and keep improving and using for start of next thing) just like ISRO did in early to mid days (and look where they are now).

Would also like to commend @MirageBlue for some excellent posts in this thread.

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## Zapper

Fan art


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268498167567392773

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## MirageBlue

Excellent news for Tejas fans. The success of the Naval LCA Mk1 in performing arrested landings and take-offs from INS Vikramaditya have given the Indian Govt. and Navy enough confidence to OFFICIALLY go ahead with the TEDBDF program.

The Indian Govt's Ministry of Defence and Navy have given the go-ahead to the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter, to supplement and eventually replace MiG-29Ks on IN's aircraft carriers.

This now means it is an official program, and requisite funding will be made available. 

And 99% likelihood that the 57 MRCBF requirement for imported Rafale M or Super Hornets is now history.

First flight target set for 6 years from now, i.e. 2026. Service entry targeted for 2030.

Just to clear it for everyone- this is SEPARATE from the Tejas Mk2 single engined fighter that is in the Mirage-2000 class. The TEDBF will be in the Rafale class, weight and payload wise. Hopefully the IAF comes onboard as well, so an IAF variant of TEDBF (i.e. ORCA) can be developed and inducted in the early 2030s. It would have 90% commonality with TEDBF, just as the Rafale M shares about 90% commonality with the Rafale C single seater.



> *New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years*
> by Vishnu Som
> Updated: June 04, 2020
> 
> The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.
> *
> Buoyed by the success of trial landings of the Tejas-N fighter on board the Navy aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has given the go ahead for the development of a twin engine made-in-India fighter jet.
> 
> NDTV has learnt that the governing body of ADA, the principal designer of the Tejas fighter, now in squadron service with the Indian Air Force, has discussed the indigenous development of the new fighter in a meeting chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and attended by the Navy and Air Force Chiefs on 22 May. Following this meeting, the Operational Requirements (ORs) for the new fighter were issued by the Integrated Headquarters of the Ministry of Defence.*
> 
> Development of the new fighter jet comes at a time when the government announced a series of structural reforms in the Defence sector under the "Atmanirbhar" or self-reliance goal which is meant to result in India dramatically cutting down on its defence imports.
> *
> The prototype of the new fighter-jet, designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers, INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant, is meant to fly within six years with induction of the fighter within a decade.*
> 
> The fighter, plans for which were first reported on NDTV in January, is a twin-engine evolution of Tejas-N prototype which has been indigenously developed and extensively test-flown.
> 
> The Tejas-N programme culminated with a series of "arrested landings" and take-offs from INS Vikramaditya off the Goa coast where two prototypes of the jet were able to successfully land on the carrier in January by using its arrestor hook to snare steel wires spread across the deck of the ship. This allowed the fighters to decelerate from approximately 244 kmph (the landing speed) to a standstill in approximately two seconds in a distance under 90 metres, within the length of the deck of INS Vikramaditya.
> *
> Those involved in the design and development of the new Indian fighter, an advanced variant of the single-engine Tejas-N, say that they have benchmarked the performance characteristics of the jet to Boeing's F/A-18 E/F "Super Hornet", in service with the US Navy and the Marine Rafale, deployed on the French Navy aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. They say the new jet may imbibe technologies being developed for the IAF's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) but will not be a stealth fighter in the same class.
> 
> At least three variations of the design of the new fighter are being studied presently and Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) tests and wind tunnel modelling will ensure the optimum shape of the fighter to match its projected operational capabilities. It's still unclear whether the new fighter will be a tail-less delta platform, similar to the IAF's LCA Tejas fighter or, for that matter, feature canards, a small forewing placed ahead of the main wing of the aircraft to aid manoeuvrability.*
> 
> The new fighter, once inducted, is meant to supplement and ultimately replace the Indian Navy's fleet of MiG-29K fighters presently in service on board the INS Vikramaditya. A high-performance jet, the MiG-29K has been plagued with serviceability issues in Indian Navy service. The new indigenous fighter is designed to be more reliable. Those close to the project have told NDTV that they expect the new fighter to be able to be armed with at least six air to air missiles with an operational endurance of approximately two hours.
> *
> The project to develop a twin engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) reflects a maturity and confidence in the development of the Tejas fighter jet upon which the new fighter will be based. On May 27, the Indian Air Force operationalised its second Tejas fighter jet squadron after first inducting the jet in 2016. Multiple variants of the Tejas based on additional capabilities are being progressively inducted. The most advanced variant of the fighter for the IAF, the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to be inducted by 2025. The new fighter being developed for the Navy is being classified as an altogether different fighter and is expected to be superior to the IAF's Tejas Mk-2 in several respects, once developed.*


Top

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## MirageBlue

Nilgiri said:


> Important thing is its out there now and we can now use this as the focal base for "real" application based military aerospace sector development going forward...and this help gestate future projects from the get go.
> 
> Its really about developing and inculcating the whole network of things (so you got something you can test and keep improving and using for start of next thing) just like ISRO did in early to mid days (and look where they are now).
> 
> Would also like to commend @MirageBlue for some excellent posts in this thread.



Indeed.And thanks for the kind words.

Here is what is coming from Indian aerospace companies in the next 2 decades

15 more Tejas Mk1 FOC single seaters
10+8 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers
73 Tejas Mk1 single seaters
Approx 123 Tejas Mk2 single seaters
Approx 60-70 Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters (for Navy)
Approx 123 AMCA

That's 300+ fighters for the IAF and 60+ for the Navy. 

I'm not even counting what would happen if the IAF decides to dump the 114 MRCA from a foreign vendor and goes for an Air Force version of TEDBF. That would add 114 ORCAs to the mix.

Now imagine the scope of how much revenue and business will be generated in India for building, maintaining and upgrading these 400+ fighters over the next 30-40 years!

Private sector suppliers will have enough Return on Investment to justify investing in facilities for aerospace.

The Modi Govt's decisions of the last 5 years to go as much as possible towards indigenisation is going to transform India's aerospace industry. Mark my words.

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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> Indeed.And thanks for the kind words.
> 
> Here is what is coming from Indian aerospace companies in the next 2 decades
> 
> 15 more Tejas Mk1 FOC single seaters
> 10+8 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers
> 73 Tejas Mk1 single seaters
> Approx 123 Tejas Mk2 single seaters
> Approx 60-70 Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters (for Navy)
> Approx 123 AMCA
> 
> That's 300+ fighters for the IAF and 60+ for the Navy.
> 
> I'm not even counting what would happen if the IAF decides to dump the 114 MRCA from a foreign vendor and goes for an Air Force version of TEDBF. That would add 114 ORCAs to the mix.
> 
> Now imagine the scope of how much revenue and business will be generated in India for building, maintaining and upgrading these 400+ fighters over the next 30-40 years!
> 
> Private sector suppliers will have enough Return on Investment to justify investing in facilities for aerospace.
> 
> The Modi Govt's decisions of the last 5 years to go as much as possible towards indigenisation is going to transform India's aerospace industry. Mark my words.



In total agreement with the post ! However its time to walk the talk. It has to get inked , atleast the 83Mk1A. Not sure whats the hold up.


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## MirageBlue

anathema said:


> In total agreement with the post ! However its time to walk the talk. It has to get inked , atleast the 83Mk1A. Not sure whats the hold up.



Contractual issues. Those will be ironed out, it's after all money going from the IAF and MoD to HAL, which is also GoI owned. 

The bigger thing was CCS approval and that came through.

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## The Maverick

SO EXCITING


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## Lord Of Gondor

Have seen the Tejas over my home near Yelahanka AFS for over 12 years,really happy to see her in Sqn service.
More happy to see the spin off in the TEDBF program as well.Golden era for Indian Aero Engg teams.

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## The Maverick

Guys on capability point of view 

I read some where the tejas mark1a with elta 2052 radar and Astra bvr and extended range derby bvr could be the best bvr platform in Indian air force by 2023/2025. This is based on the lower rcs of tejas versus all other fighters bar the rafale .
My imo is that bvr rank wise in capab8kity will be 

Rafale = rbe2 radar meteors and mica
Tejas = elta 2052 derby and astra
Su30mki = bars pesa r77 and r27
Mig29up/mig29k zhuk aesa r77 and 27
Mirage2000/5 = rdy400 and magic.

I refer to lethality only not range or payload.

Both rafale and tejas are harder to see and have good radars which are harder to jam and excellent range bvr missles 

In this order


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## Ali_Baba

Currently PAF outclasses everything that India has as far is BVR is concerned. Derby/Astra are inferior to the SD10A. Once the Rafales turn up, shortly AESA equipped PL15s will neutralise that threat. So, India will not have a chance to outclass PAF in the BVR space.

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## kris

What is the craze with pl -15 I say, it's basically for non maneuverable slow flying aircraft at long ranges like aewacs....

It's no magic bullet. Get over the hype



Ali_Baba said:


> Currently PAF outclasses everything that India has as far is BVR is concerned. Derby/Astra are inferior to the SD10A. Once the Rafales turn up, shortly AESA equipped PL15s will neutralise that threat. So, India will not have a chance to outclass PAF in the BVR space.


Had that been the scenario PAF wouldnt have ordered American missiles.
They would have settled with SD10a


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## KapitaanAli

SP21 (FOC) with the removable IFR probe removed:

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## Zapper

The Maverick said:


> Guys on capability point of view
> 
> I read some where the tejas mark1a with elta 2052 radar and Astra bvr and extended range derby bvr could be the best bvr platform in Indian air force by 2023/2025. This is based on the lower rcs of tejas versus all other fighters bar the rafale .
> My imo is that bvr rank wise in capab8kity will be
> 
> Rafale = rbe2 radar meteors and mica
> Tejas = elta 2052 derby and astra
> Su30mki = bars pesa r77 and r27
> Mig29up/mig29k zhuk aesa r77 and 27
> Mirage2000/5 = rdy400 and magic.
> 
> I refer to lethality only not range or payload.
> 
> Both rafale and tejas are harder to see and have good radars which are harder to jam and excellent range bvr missles
> 
> In this order


Major drawback of LCA Mk-1A is it's limited operational range and fewer hardpoints. MWF will fix that but we need to fastrack the development of MWF


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## The Maverick

KapitaanAli said:


> SP21 (FOC) with the removable IFR probe removed:
> 
> View attachment 639683


 
I love the tejas design it's perfect for India lightweight fighter segment



Zapper said:


> Major drawback of LCA Mk-1A is it's limited operational range and fewer hardpoints. MWF will fix that but we need to fastrack the development of MWF



The range is better than most of us realise 
It's in the same range as other lightweight fighters be it gripen or thunder.

Please remember India will have ample long range fighters in mki and rafale.

What India needs is cost-effective indengious multi role light weight fighter operating no futher than our borders

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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> Guys on capability point of view
> 
> I read some where the tejas mark1a with elta 2052 radar and Astra bvr and extended range derby bvr could be the best bvr platform in Indian air force by 2023/2025. This is based on the lower rcs of tejas versus all other fighters bar the rafale .
> My imo is that bvr rank wise in capab8kity will be
> 
> Rafale = rbe2 radar meteors and mica
> Tejas = elta 2052 derby and astra
> Su30mki = bars pesa r77 and r27
> Mig29up/mig29k zhuk aesa r77 and 27
> Mirage2000/5 = rdy400 and magic.
> 
> I refer to lethality only not range or payload.
> 
> Both rafale and tejas are harder to see and have good radars which are harder to jam and excellent range bvr missles
> 
> In this order



Su-30MKI will get the Astra before the Tejas Mk1A. MiG-29UPG will get it, as will likely, the Mirage-2000I.



Zapper said:


> Major drawback of LCA Mk-1A is it's limited operational range and fewer hardpoints. MWF will fix that but we need to fastrack the development of MWF



Tejas' max range is 2000 plus km. And it's Radius of Action is BETTER than the Jaguar. 

This is from HV Thakur on Twitter. He's a former Jaguar pilot and Jaguar Squadron Commander of the IAF.



Ali_Baba said:


> Currently PAF outclasses everything that India has as far is BVR is concerned. Derby/Astra are inferior to the SD10A. Once the Rafales turn up, shortly AESA equipped PL15s will neutralise that threat. So, India will not have a chance to outclass PAF in the BVR space.



Lol.

Yeah? Show me data that backs up your claim. Show us the manufacturer's data to back it up. Tell us EXACTLY how it is superior to the i-Derby-ER, Derby or the Astra Mk1.

Meteor is considered the pre-eminent BVRAAM out there today. Because the data shows it. Not because fanboys say so and the rest are supposed to believe it.



kris said:


> What is the craze with pl -15 I say, it's basically for non maneuverable slow flying aircraft at long ranges like aewacs....
> 
> It's no magic bullet. Get over the hype
> 
> 
> Had that been the scenario PAF wouldnt have ordered American missiles.
> They would have settled with SD10a



Let them believe what they want to believe. Internet wars don't really matter in the real world.

PL-15 was designed to take on USAF AWACS and tanker assets from long ranges. It isn't even a dual pulse motor BVR AAM. It will be easily out-maneuvered by any fighter and will have a very poor Pk at high ranges and very low No-Escape Zone.

Meteor is the one to beat thanks to the ramjet rocket that will keep it powered throughout it's flight. It's NEZ is supposedly far better than the latest AMRAAM.



Zapper said:


> Major drawback of LCA Mk-1A is it's limited operational range and fewer hardpoints. MWF will fix that but we need to fastrack the development of MWF



Fewer hardpoints compared to which light aircraft?

Gripen C? KAI FA-50? JF-17? All of them have 7 hardpoints for carrying weapons and most have only 3 wet points, that can carry drop tanks.

Only the Gripen C and Tejas Mk1 have 7 weapons hardpoints and 1 dedicated chin station for the LDP. JF-17 is only now getting the chin station for LDP.

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## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas' max range is 2000 plus km. And it's Radius of Action is BETTER than the Jaguar.
> 
> This is from HV Thakur on Twitter. He's a former Jaguar pilot and Jaguar Squadron Commander of the IAF


Tejas

*Range:* 1,850 km (1,150 mi, 459 nmi)
*Combat range:* 500 km (320 mi, 280 nmi) with internal tanks
*Ferry range:* 3,200 km (1,986 mi, 1,726 nmi) with 2x external drop tanks
Jaguar

*Combat range:* 815 km (506 mi, 440 nmi) hi-lo-hi (internal fuel)
575 km (357 mi; 310 nmi) lo-lo-lo (internal fuel)
1,408 km (875 mi; 760 nmi) hi-lo-hi (with external fuel)
908 km (564 mi; 490 nmi) lo-lo-lo (with external fuel)

*Ferry range:* 1,902 km (1,182 mi, 1,027 nmi) with full internal and external tanks
While Tejas would be a potent addition on the western front, it falls behind when it comes to engaging PLAAF given the vast area of Tibet


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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> Tejas
> 
> *Range:* 1,850 km (1,150 mi, 459 nmi)
> *Combat range:* 500 km (320 mi, 280 nmi) with internal tanks
> *Ferry range:* 3,200 km (1,986 mi, 1,726 nmi) with 2x external drop tanks
> Jaguar
> 
> *Combat range:* 815 km (506 mi, 440 nmi) hi-lo-hi (internal fuel)
> 575 km (357 mi; 310 nmi) lo-lo-lo (internal fuel)
> 1,408 km (875 mi; 760 nmi) hi-lo-hi (with external fuel)
> 908 km (564 mi; 490 nmi) lo-lo-lo (with external fuel)
> 
> *Ferry range:* 1,902 km (1,182 mi, 1,027 nmi) with full internal and external tanks
> While Tejas would be a potent addition on the western front, it falls behind when it comes to engaging PLAAF given the vast area of Tibet




IAF posted Tejas info-board

Tejas max range - 2000 km







And I would go with what a Test Pilot (Grp Cpt HV Thakur) who has flown the Jaguar and knows exactly what NFTC TPs were doing with the Tejas when flying from Bangalore to Jaisalmer nonstop for weapons trials. 

And he clearly stated that the Tejas' Radius of Action (ROA) is better than that of the Jaguar. 

The Tejas will be a defensive fighter, to keep PLAAF fighters out of our borders. Can easily maintain CAP/BarCAP patrols on our side. Su-30MKIs will have to be the ones doing any incursions into Chinese territory if it comes down to that. They have the legs for that.

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## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> IAF posted Tejas info-board
> 
> Tejas max range - 2000 km


2000 km with 2x external drop tanks


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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> 2000 km with 2x external drop tanks



Yes, and I'd expect it to carry drop tanks (either centerline or inboard stations) on almost all missions.


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## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> Yes, and I'd expect it to carry drop tanks (either centerline or inboard stations) on almost all missions.


Fighter jets usually tend to drop their external fuel tanks in case of a dog fight or WVR encounter for better maneuverability after which they should have enough fuel left to make it back. But again, I don't expect LCA to cross LAC but is a potent addition on our western front since most pakistani cities are within the 500km range from our borders


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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> Fighter jets usually tend to drop their external fuel tanks in case of a dog fight or WVR encounter for better maneuverability after which they should have enough fuel left to make it back. But again, I don't expect LCA to cross LAC but is a potent addition on our western front since most pakistani cities are within the 500km range from our borders



It was mostly true in the older days when drop tanks would restrict maneuvering capability a lot and combat meant dogfights. In today's day and age, where the combat may initiate at Beyond Visual ranges, it is not necessary to jettison the drop tanks.

But yes, if the pilot feels that he needs higher maneuverability, he could jettison the drop tanks and should still be able to get back and recover safely to a base. But that is not a problem unique to the Tejas. Almost all fighters need to be able to do that.

If the IAF expected to use it's Jaguars as Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft to ingress into Pakistani territory at very low altitudes (where fuel consumption is higher), climb up, strike and then egress at low altitudes (viz. lo-hi-lo profile) , then Tejas, which has a better Radius of Action, can do it too. Question is whether that type of strike profile is dangerous or not and the answer is that it is. During Gulf War 1 it was the Tornado pilots flying this type of profile that suffered high attrition. 

It is far safer to use stand-off glide PGMs, LBGs and other smart munitions and allow the pilot to stay out the SAM and AAA bubbles as far as possible. And for that sort of role, the Tejas is perfectly capable as was illustrated by the fact that it had the best range scores during IAF Exercise Gagan Shakti as well as Inter-Command exercises.

When a sizeable number of Tejas fighters are in service, the IAF will task them with every role it can.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas trainer coming in to land








> Trust #DebRana to bring to us some of the nicest shots of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. A click from earlier today, The twin seat Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Trainer.



Twitter link

Tejas trainer with the French Air Force Chief in the back seat. Backdrop of Jodhpur's famous Mehrangarh fort.






From Tejas LCA's FB page



> Two engineering excellence in one frame..
> The Mehrangarh and the other your very own Tejas..
> With French AirForce Chief on the rear cockpit, this was another historic moment for Tejas.

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## The Maverick

The 


MirageBlue said:


> Tejas trainer coming in to land
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter link
> 
> Tejas trainer with the French Air Force Chief in the back seat. Backdrop of Jodhpur's famous Mehrangarh fort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Tejas LCA's FB page


Twin engined tejas looks the best love the raised bubble canopy of rear co pilot.
We need to make these combat capable


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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> The
> 
> Twin engined tejas looks the best love the raised bubble canopy of rear co pilot.
> We need to make these combat capable



You mean twin seater? IMO, it looks a LOT better when it's up in the air. I find the landing gear ungainly on the ground.

From my interactions with those involved, it seems that there is no real plan to make the twin seater a combat twin seater. It is primarily being thought of as a trainer only.

HAL's Supersonic Omni Role Trainer (SPORT) concept is very interesting. It plans to develop a twin seat trainer into a very advanced LIFT for the IAF. Apparently HAL plans on getting a LCA SPORT prototype in the air in the next 2-3 years.

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## MirageBlue

Very interesting slide from a presentation that shows the changes in configuration to the Tejas from Mk1 to Mk2 and then finally to the configuration that is now final and in detail design phase.

Shows the evolution of the design as well as the evolution of IAF's requirements that led finally to a direct Mirage-2000 replacement Tejas Mk2 design.

Most interestingly, it appears (and I'm fairly confident it is) that the wing area is NOT being increased for the Tejas Mk2. The Tejas Mk1's wing is so big that even with the added weight of the Mk2, the wing loading of a Tejas Mk2 with it's canards will be quite low, which is a great thing. The canards obviously will increase the lifting surface area, so they compensate for the added weight in a way.

The initial Tejas Mk2 was 0.5 meter longer; (Prelim Design Review in 2014)
MTOW was 15,000 kg

Max Payload was increased from 3,500 kg to 4,500 kg 

Internal fuel was increased from 2486 kg to 2672 kg (minor increase of 200 kg)
F-414-INS-6 engine

The next Tejas Mk2 iteration was 1 meter longer (2017)
MTOW was increased to 16,500 kg
Max Payload was increased from 4,500 kg to 5,500 kg
Internal fuel was increased from 2672 kg to 3300 kg (major increase of 628 kg over previous Mk2 design)

New close coupled canards added 

F-414-INS-6 engine
Wing-tip stations added

The final Mk2 iteration is 1.35 meter longer and MTOW has gone up to 17,500 kgs
MTOW was increased to 17,500 kg
Max Payload increased from 5,500 kg to 6,500 kg
Internal fuel was kept constant at 3300 kg
300 mm wider, most likely at the wing join; i.e. the fuselage will be wider by 300 mm but the wing size will remain same as earlier Mk2 design.

Close coupled canards retained
F-414-INS-6 engine retained
Wing-tip stations retained


The yellow areas on the Tejas models are the locations where the fuselage plugs will be added. Can see the initial 0.5 m plug on the first Mk2 design, then the additional 0.5 m plug (0.5m + 0.5m = 1m total fuselage plug) in the next Mk2 design and then finally another 0.3 m plug (0.5m + 0.5m+ 0.3m = 1.3m total fuselage plug) as well in the last iteration.

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## Nilgiri

MirageBlue said:


> Very interesting slide from a presentation that shows the changes in configuration to the Tejas from Mk1 to Mk2 and then finally to the configuration that is now final and in detail design phase.
> 
> Shows the evolution of the design as well as the evolution of IAF's requirements that led finally to a direct Mirage-2000 replacement Tejas Mk2 design.
> 
> Most interestingly, it appears (and I'm fairly confident it is) that the wing area is NOT being increased for the Tejas Mk2. The Tejas Mk1's wing is so big that even with the added weight of the Mk2, the wing loading of a Tejas Mk2 with it's canards will be quite low, which is a great thing. The canards obviously will increase the lifting surface area, so they compensate for the added weight in a way.
> 
> The initial Tejas Mk2 was 0.5 meter longer; (Prelim Design Review in 2014)
> MTOW was 15,000 kg
> 
> Max Payload was increased from 3,500 kg to 4,500 kg
> 
> Internal fuel was increased from 2486 kg to 2672 kg (minor increase of 200 kg)
> F-414-INS-6 engine
> 
> The next Tejas Mk2 iteration was 1 meter longer (2017)
> MTOW was increased to 16,500 kg
> Max Payload was increased from 4,500 kg to 5,500 kg
> Internal fuel was increased from 2672 kg to 3300 kg (major increase of 628 kg over previous Mk2 design)
> 
> New close coupled canards added
> 
> F-414-INS-6 engine
> Wing-tip stations added
> 
> The final Mk2 iteration is 1.35 meter longer and MTOW has gone up to 17,500 kgs
> MTOW was increased to 17,500 kg
> Max Payload increased from 5,500 kg to 6,500 kg
> Internal fuel was kept constant at 3300 kg
> 300 mm wider, most likely at the wing join; i.e. the fuselage will be wider by 300 mm but the wing size will remain same as earlier Mk2 design.
> 
> Close coupled canards retained
> F-414-INS-6 engine retained
> Wing-tip stations retained
> 
> 
> The yellow areas on the Tejas models are the locations where the fuselage plugs will be added. Can see the initial 0.5 m plug on the first Mk2 design, then the additional 0.5 m plug (0.5m + 0.5m = 1m total fuselage plug) in the next Mk2 design and then finally another 0.3 m plug (0.5m + 0.5m+ 0.3m = 1.3m total fuselage plug) as well in the last iteration.



@Indos

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## The Maverick

Nilgiri said:


> @Indos




The mark 2 looks s clone of gripen ng.


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## Indos

Nilgiri said:


> @Indos



Nice info, thanks for tagging me

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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> The mark 2 looks s clone of gripen ng.



It may have some superficial similarity, but the fact is this- both Saab as well as ADA/HAL/DRDO are trying to solve what is essentially a similar problem. How to scale up a light fighter (Gripen C and Tejas Mk1) to a bigger design to meet higher range and payload requirements? 

ADA wasn't and isn't looking to clone a Gripen E in any way. The canards were added due to very specific issues relating to Center of Lift and Center of Gravity that were arising from the fuselage plugs that lengthened the airframe by 1 meter or more.

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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> Meteor is the one to beat thanks to the ramjet rocket that will keep it powered throughout it's flight. It's NEZ is supposedly far better than the latest AMRAAM.


The NEZ of Meteor is > 60km, so nearly 3 more NEZ range than AMRAAM C7 (on something in the 2.5 more range than AMRAAM D).

The full range (ie with few energy at the end, in a semi ballistic low speed flight) is >> 200km (the rumor in Europe say 300 to 350km...). Maybe enough to catch a slow moving target as a tanker ???


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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> The Tejas Mk1's wing is so big that even with the added weight of the Mk2, the wing loading of a Tejas Mk2 with it's canards will be quite low, which is a great thing. The canards obviously will increase the lifting surface area, so they compensate for the added weight in a way.


Are they closed coupled canards?


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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> Are they closed coupled canards?



Yes indeed. A great read on the Tejas Mk2 (aka MWF) is here at the link below.

Tracking the Tejas- The Tejas Mk2 grows a pair becomes the medium weight fighter



> *
> However, now that a stable and robust flight control system (FCS) has already been designed, tested and validated, the addition of canards is an incremental development which ADA is confident of undertaking. The incorporation of canards also obviates the need to redesign the wing to cater to a shift in the center of lift (CoL) commensurate to a forward shift in the center of gravity (CG), which would invariably happen once the length of the fuselage is increased (more on this later). Instead, using the canards to move the center of lift forward while retaining the old wing seems like an attractive option, given that it also brings with it other aerodynamic advantages . The canards in MWF are positioned below the avionics bay cover, just behind the cockpit. They are in close-coupled configuration and are positioned slightly ahead and above the wing plane for optimal wing-canard interaction. The canards are set at a negative angle and have a slight dihedral angle. Close-coupled canards significantly affect wing aerodynamics on account of their favorable wing-canard interaction and increase lift produced by the wing considerably. Canards help stabilize the wing LE vortices for medium to high Angle of Attack (AoA) by delaying vortex breakdown. In addition, they produce significant lift themselves, further augmenting the total lift produced by the aircraft. Canards also help achieve better area ruling for reduced wave drag. In the air, they can act as extra control surfaces for pitch and directional control, and on the ground, as air-brakes during landing roll. In fact, for MWF, the canards will be used as pitch control surfaces and as air-brakes to reduce landing roll.* In contrast, long coupled canards (as seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Rockwell-MBB X-31) are only meant to be control surfaces and they neither contribute significantly to overall lift, nor do they interact strongly with the extant wing aerodynamics.











> _Figure 11: Front fuselage section showing Close-Coupled canards adopted for LCA Mk2 (MWF). The front fuselage is elongated by approximately 1.5m using two plugs and has increased height. The width remains same as that in MK1. _

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## halupridol

MirageBlue said:


> Yes indeed. A great read on the Tejas Mk2 (aka MWF) is here at the link below.
> 
> Tracking the Tejas- The Tejas Mk2 grows a pair becomes the medium weight fighter


When will mk1a and mwf fly,,,,and when do you expect thm to be inducted?
I mean do U believe the timelines being touted by the dpsu's???
And r u Indraneel of B R F?


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## MirageBlue

halupridol said:


> When will mk1a and mwf fly,,,,and do you expect thm to be inducted?



Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.

Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.

And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas. 

So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.

MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.

And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years _after_ the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.

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## halupridol

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.
> 
> Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.
> 
> And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas.
> 
> So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.
> 
> MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.
> 
> And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years _after_ the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.


What u r saying doesn't resonate with what I have heard(from active servicemen). 
Okay let me rephrase my questions ,,,,,, when do U believe mk1a and mwf will fly and inducted(which years,,first flight and FOC induction) ??

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## MirageBlue

halupridol said:


> What u r saying doesn't resonate with what I have heard(from active servicemen).
> Okay let me rephrase my questions ,,,,,, when do U believe mk1a and mwf will fly and inducted(which years,,first flight and FOC induction) ??



Which active servicemen are you referring to? People involved with the LCA? Those who are not involved with the Tejas program will regurgitate the same bile that has been spewed by countless media articles in the past. That's what PR does- it successfully maligns or bolsters the image of something you have neither seen nor encountered yourself.

Rephrase your question? You're saying as if I answered something that you didn't ask me about. It was answered in much more detail than you bothered to even put in. 

Tejas Mk1A first flight will be in 3rd or 4th quarter 2021. It will supposedly go into production by 2023, after the remaining 14 single seat FOC fighters and 18 FOC trainers are built and delivered. 

By 2021, all 16 single seat FOC fighters will be delivered. After that the trainers go into production, apparently on a new assembly line being built. In 2023, the 18 trainers will be delivered.

Meanwhile, the single seat Mk1A will begin to be assembled as soon as the last FOC Mk1 is delivered. The reason being that the difference between Mk1 and Mk1A is more related to radar, avionics systems and LRUs and not to the basic airframe structure itself. So those can continue even while the Mk1A is being flight tested. 

My estimate based on what is known from open sources. 

*Tejas Mk1A - *
First flight - 2021
IOC - 2023
Entry into service - 2023/24
FOC - 2025

*Tejas Mk2 -*
Prototype rollout- 2022 (August to be specific)
First flight - 2023 (September to be specific)
IOC - 2026 (my estimate)
Entry into service - 2026/27
FOC - 2028/29

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## SrNair

KapitaanAli said:


> SP21 (FOC) with the removable IFR probe removed:
> 
> View attachment 639683



30 years of our investment .
I think it was a best decision.
Now we have our own strong platform

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## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.
> 
> Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.
> 
> And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas.
> 
> So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.
> 
> MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.
> 
> And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years _after_ the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.


Some good info there. Do you think MWF will have Uttam and DRDO/BEL's avionics or would they go for Elta and Israeli avionics?



MirageBlue said:


> *Tejas Mk2 -*
> Prototype rollout- 2022 (August to be specific)
> First flight - 2023 (September to be specific)
> IOC - 2026 (my estimate)
> Entry into service - 2026/27
> FOC - 2028/29


Are these ADA's estimates? Metal cutting for MWF was supposed to happen later this year or early next year but with covid, it might be delayed to late next year


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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> Some good info there. Do you think MWF will have Uttam and DRDO/BEL's avionics or would they go for Elta and Israeli avionics?



If progress continues to be as good as it has been so far, the Uttam may well be the AESA radar for the Tejas Mk2. For the Mk1A, at least the first batches will be with the Elta 2052. It all depends on how LRDE and other DRDO labs and units manage to productionize the Uttam once the flight testing phase is over. Bharat Electricals Ltd (BEL) which manufactures most of India's indigenous radars, including AESA and is also the offset partner for the Thales RBE-2 AESA on the Rafale, will likely be the manufacturer. They will likely involve the private sector as well, with Astra Microwave being a big player in the Indian radar market.

Earlier this year, the Uttam AESA Project Director had given a short update on where the radar was in terms of testing. Covid-19 might have caused some delays due to stalling of testing, but I would expect the Tejas Mk2 to use the Uttam AESA radar and not the Elta 2052.

Uttam AESA radar updates


Air to air modes comprise 60% of radar testing
Half way through it
30 odd sorties required to complete the air to air mode testing
Planned to complete all modes by year end on LCA prototype (includes air to sea, air to ground and combined modes)
Out of 18 total modes, 10 modes have been tested
Air to ground and air to sea have Imaging and Tracking modes. These have already been demonstrated on an executive jet platform, but now they have to be demonstrated on Tejas prototype as well
Demonstrating all the modes on a fighter jet is more of a challenge because it has to be stabilized during all types of maneuvers like rolls, turns, climbs, etc. 

Air to air and Air to sea modes have also been tested on Netra AEW&C which also uses LRDE's AESA radar
To handle the increased agility of a fighter jet, the algorithms have had to be modified compared to what is present on the Netra AEW&C
Air to ground modes have been tested on a Dornier Do-228 Flying Test Bed (FTB), although the radar is not of the same band as the AESA for LCA



> Are these ADA's estimates? Metal cutting for MWF was supposed to happen later this year or early next year but with covid, it might be delayed to late next year



Yes, but for the Tejas Mk1A, it isn't ADA estimates that one should look for. They are not responsible for the Mk1A, it is HAL which is the nodal agency, since they suggested the Mk1A to the IAF.

The Tejas Mk2 estimates are from ADA.

Tejas Mk2 long lead items orders have been placed so that metal cutting can begin in April 2021. It got delayed by 1 year for some reasons, possibly the PDR being moved. Only after the PDRs are cleared will metal cutting begin.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 in flight, flying next to a Su-30MKI






Pic credit- Sanjay Simha.

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## KapitaanAli

Flying Daggers:

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## KapitaanAli

A movie in a picture, NLCA:

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## S.U.R.B.

KapitaanAli said:


> A movie in a picture, NLCA:



Bollywood ,Hollywood or the mixture of both?


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## KapitaanAli

S.U.R.B. said:


> Bollywood ,Hollywood or the mixture of both?


A GIF. : )

There's just a lot going on in the picture.

Thanks to Deb Rana.


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## MirageBlue

'Flying Daggers' Tejas 4 ship take-off

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## Lord Of Gondor

Pic credits in the img
2 Derby BVR and 2 R73 CCM with 2 bags as well.

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## Armchair

I think the Derbies are going to be majorly outclassed. Makes no sense to spend money on a gun and then realize your ammo is no useless.


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## MirageBlue

Armchair said:


> I think the Derbies are going to be majorly outclassed. Makes no sense to spend money on a gun and then realize your ammo is no useless.



These Derby BVRAAMs were ex-Indian Navy stock. They were purchased for the Sea Harrier LUSH upgrade. Once the Sea Harriers were retired, the Derby missiles were transferred over to the IAF. 

The plan is to go for the I-Derby ER missiles that have a 100+ km range. They retain the same form and factor as the original Derby, but are dual pulse BVRAAMs. So no new integration or major qualification and testing trials will be required. As long as the Derby is integrated with the platform and it's radar and computers, the I-Derby ER will work just fine.

The other BVRAAM that will arm the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A is the Astra.

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## MirageBlue

5 Tejas fighters ready for a mission. This is an older pic and these aren't Series Production Tejas fighters.

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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> 5 Tejas fighters ready for a mission. This is an older pic and these aren't Series Production Tejas fighters.




Wow 
And 248 Astra bvr ordered today too


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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> Wow
> And 248 Astra bvr ordered today too



Yes indeed. 200 for the IAF and 48 for the IN.


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## Dazzler



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## wraith96

One more key Technology added to our kitty through the LCA Tejas program. Flight Control actuators which till now were being imported from Moog will now be replaced by Godrej aerospace's actuators.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas twin seat trainers with NDTV journalist Vishnu Som in the backseat of KH-T-2010 taking these pictures.

The Tejas trainer looks really good in the air.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 carrying 2 Derby BVRAAMs and 2 R-73Es.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Why the R-73 carried by Tejas have black fins?


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## KapitaanAli

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Why the R-73 carried by Tejas have black fins?


Could be a training round or a dummy. This colour scheme is often seen on displayed missiles and during airframe testing.

I'm aware that R73 training rounds generally look different from this.

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## DANGER-ZONE

KapitaanAli said:


> Could be a training round or a dummy. This colour scheme is often seen on displayed missiles and during airframe testing.
> 
> I'm aware that R73 training rounds generally look different from this.



Yes could be but I have seen this missile type with IAF Tejas only since early prototypes.
Haven't seen it with any other Russian account in IAF, the blacked fins missile.


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## Dazzler

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Yes could be but I have seen this missile type with IAF Tejas only since early prototypes.
> Haven't seen it with any other Russian account in IAF, the blacked fins missile.


Training rounds


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## Nilgiri

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288524647890210816






@Indos @Gomig-21 

MWF (Tejas mk 2) updates coming out.

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## maniac@666

MirageBlue said:


> No, they use the RDY-3. Even UAE's Mirage-2000 upgrades are supposed to get the RDY-3 which is considered the latest iteration of the RDY.
> 
> link
> 
> 
> 
> link


Ur info is incorrect.RDY-2 =>RDY-3 radar.Indian Mirage-2000 uses RDY-2 radar.u may be knowing Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar who was an Mirage-2000 pilot himself and retired last year from IAF.He was also one of the person who played crucial role in Mirage-2000 upgrade & Rafale deal.hear it from himself,if he can't convince u then nobody can and Tejas for now uses F-404 engine,F-414 is for future variants.


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## Indos

maniac@666 said:


> Ur info is incorrect.RDY-2 =>RDY-3 radar.Indian Mirage-2000 uses RDY-2 radar.u may be knowing Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar who was an Mirage-2000 pilot himself and retired last year from IAF.He was also one of the person who played crucial role in Mirage-2000 upgrade & Rafale deal.hear it from himself,if he can't convince u then nobody can and Tejas for now uses F-404 engine,F-414 is for future variants.
> View attachment 657310



F414 is for Tejas MK2


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## maniac@666

Indos said:


> F414 is for Tejas MK2


That's the same thing I'm saying, that F-414 is for future variants.u should see his older post to which I've replied to, where he wrote that Tejas is using F-414 and it's advantages.Till Mk1A Tejas will use F-404 engine's.

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291006295806373889

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## MirageBlue

Tejas prototype LSP-7 with a 1000 lb Harpy LGB on the centerline station. Basically, the Tejas can carry LGBs on all it's stations except for the outermost hardpoints.

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## MirageBlue

2 Tejas fighters from the No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron. Note the use of DASH HMDS by both pilots.

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## MirageBlue

The first FOC Tejas close up view.

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## Lord Of Gondor

> *Uttam Ready*
> 
> The home-grown Uttam Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar developed by Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) seems to be making the right moves to get the attention of the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> With the addition of AESA radar being one of the key features of Tejas MK1A, LRDE hopes that Uttam can even meet the schedules of the upgraded programme.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has already completed more than 100 hours of flying on a hired aircraft and nearly 25 hours on Tejas test platforms. It is now confirmed that Uttam’s air-to-air mode and its sub-mode functionalities have been already tested.
> 
> 
> Uttam is in competition with the Israeli Elta radar and the official word is not yet out on the question of how many Tejas MK1As (total 83) will be fitted with the desi technology.
> 
> LRDE scientists are pinning their hopes on the Aatmanirbhar Bharat mandate._


https://www.onmanorama.com/news/col...e-minister-rajnath-plane-talk-rafale.amp.html

Great news on the Uttam. Total 125 hours on flight tests and A2A modes and sub modes validated.
A2Sea and crucially A2G pending.

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## MirageBlue

Yes indeed. It will be a huge achievement to have an indigenous AESA radar operational and hopefully one of the MLU upgrade programs can feature the Uttam AESA. By MLU I mean either for the Su-30MKI or maybe for the 40 Tejas Mk1s. 

Watch this interview with Project Director of Uttam AESA radar, D Sheshagiri of LRDE from Feb 2020. He explains that approx. 60% of the radar testing is basically Air to air modes. They were half-way through A2A modes by Feb 2020, and needed 30 odd sorties to complete the A2A modes testing. And now this news that all A2A modes have been tested. 

A2G has 2 modes- imaging and tracking
A2S has 2 modes- imaging and tracking

All of these modes were already demonstrated on the leased executive jet, now they needed to show it on the Tejas, which is supersonic and much much more agile.

Plan was to complete testing of ALL A2A, A2G, A2S and combined modes. Out of 18 modes in total, 10 were already shown, so by this year end they should be in a position to show the remaining modes as well. The experience with the AESA radar of the Netra AEW&C has helped greatly, where the A2A and A2S modes were already tested, in operation with the IAF and doing a wonderful job as per user feedback.

Algorithms have been modified from the AESA used on the Netra AEW&C due to the higher speed and agility of the Tejas.

A2G modes have been tested on a Dornier test bed, but in a different band. 

Youtube link

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## rockstarIN

MirageBlue said:


> Yes indeed. It will be a huge achievement to have an indigenous AESA radar operational and hopefully one of the MLU upgrade programs can feature the Uttam AESA. By MLU I mean either for the Su-30MKI or maybe for the 40 Tejas Mk1s.
> 
> Watch this interview with Project Director of Uttam AESA radar, D Sheshagiri of LRDE from Feb 2020. He explains that approx. 60% of the radar testing is basically Air to air modes. They were half-way through A2A modes by Feb 2020, and needed 30 odd sorties to complete the A2A modes testing. And now this news that all A2A modes have been tested.
> 
> A2G has 2 modes- imaging and tracking
> A2S has 2 modes- imaging and tracking
> 
> All of these modes were already demonstrated on the leased executive jet, now they needed to show it on the Tejas, which is supersonic and much much more agile.
> 
> Plan was to complete testing of ALL A2A, A2G, A2S and combined modes. Out of 18 modes in total, 10 were already shown, so by this year end they should be in a position to show the remaining modes as well. The experience with the AESA radar of the Netra AEW&C has helped greatly, where the A2A and A2S modes were already tested, in operation with the IAF and doing a wonderful job as per user feedback.
> 
> Algorithms have been modified from the AESA used on the Netra AEW&C due to the higher speed and agility of the Tejas.
> 
> A2G modes have been tested on a Dornier test bed, but in a different band.
> 
> Youtube link



We can arm LCA with meteor if our AESA radar is indigenous. MBDA will allow hopefully


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## Zapper

*LRDE Pushing for Uttam AESA for Last Batch of Tejas Mk-1A*

The home-grown Uttam Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar developed by Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) seems to be making the right moves to get the attention of the Indian Air Force (IAF).




With the addition of AESA radar being one of the key features of Tejas MK1A, LRDE hopes that Uttam can even meet the schedules of the upgraded programme.

It has already completed more than 100 hours of flying on a hired aircraft and nearly 25 hours on Tejas test platforms. It is now confirmed that Uttam’s air-to-air mode and its sub-mode functionalities have been already tested.


Uttam is in competition with the Israeli Elta radar and the official word is not yet out on the question of how many Tejas MK1As (total 83) will be fitted with the desi technology.

LRDE scientists are pinning their hopes on the Aatmanirbhar Bharat mandate.

Uttam Radar

The Uttam is an advanced active phased array radar (APAR) system being developed by Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) for the HAL Tejas and other combat aircraft of Indian Air Force. Development of Uttam started in 2008 and it was first unveiled at Aero India 2009. Uttam is slated to be a successor to hybrid passive electronically scanned array radar EL/M-2032 currently equipping LCA Tejas. Radar is currently being integrated with an LCA.

UTTAM has capabilities like, Identification friend or foe (IFF), electronic and communication support measures, C-band line-of-sight and Ku-band SATCOM datalinks, etc., similar to those on the AWACS and Conformal Airborne Early Warning & Control Systems (CAEW) systems.

The important modes of operation of the UTTAM radar system are the surface surveillance and the air surveillance. The sensor has the abilities to search, track-while-scan, priority tracking, high performance tracking, etc. In priority tracking, the targets will be placed in full track mode even if these cross the primary surveillance area. In high performance tracking, additional measurements are made to improve the tracking accuracy. Utilizing active aperture technology, the radar provides a fast-beam agile system that can operate in several modes concurrently.

Uttam features an active phased array (APAR) which gives it superior scanning performance over legacy passive phased array radar. Unlike most contemporary radars, Uttam features Quad TRM i.e. a single plank consists of 4 TRMs.

https://www.defenceaviationpost.com...-for-uttam-aesa-for-last-batch-of-tejas-mk-1a

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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> *LRDE Pushing for Uttam AESA for Last Batch of Tejas Mk-1A*
> 
> Uttam is in competition with the Israeli Elta radar and the official word is not yet out on the question of how many Tejas MK1As (total 83) will be fitted with the desi technology.
> *
> Uttam is slated to be a successor to hybrid passive electronically scanned array radar EL/M-2032 currently equipping LCA Tejas. Radar is currently being integrated with an LCA.*
> 
> https://www.defenceaviationpost.com...-for-uttam-aesa-for-last-batch-of-tejas-mk-1a



The bolded portion of the text from that article is wrong. The Elta 2032 is not a PESA radar but a mechanically scanning array radar. Also, this article is nothing but a hashing of what Anantha Krishnan mentioned in his article. It simply adds some open source details about Uttam.

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## Lord Of Gondor

*Amid border tensions with China, indigenous fighter LCA Tejas deployed on western front*


> In a significant achievement for the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, the Indian Air Force (IAF) deployed the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas on the western front along the Pakistan border in view of the tensions with China on the Ladakh front.
> "The LCA Tejas was deployed by the Indian Air Force on the western front close to the Pakistan border to take care of any possible action by the adversary there," government sources told ANI.
> The first LCA Tejas squadron, 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) based out of Sulur under the Southern Air Command, was deployed in an operational role there, the sources said.
> The indigenous Tejas aircraft had been praised by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his Independence Day speech where he had stated that the deal to buy the LCA Mark1A version was expected to be completed soon.
> While the first squadron of the planes is of the Initial Operational Clearance version, the second 18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets' is of the Final Operational Clearance version and was operationalized by the IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria at the Sulur airbase on May 27.
> The Indian Air Force and the Defence Ministry are expected to finalise the deal for the 83 Mark1A aircraft by the end of this year. In view of the Chinese aggression on the borders, the IAF had deployed its assets all along the borders with both China and Pakistan.
> The forward airbases of the force have been equipped to take care of situations along the western and northern fronts and have seen extensive flying operations in the recent past, including both daytime and night operations.


https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ejas-deployed-on-western-front20200818143044/
Great development.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Note: Not sure how reliable the info is.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295662972086284288If true then I guess Tejas is at AFS Uttarlai, Naliya will have the MiG-29UPG on a det from Jamnagar(First Supersonics 28)
and so ruled out.
Plus no single engined jets are employed for ops over the ocean as far as I know.


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## Novice09

@Lord Of Gondor it is confirmed... from Sulur to...








https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ejas-deployed-on-western-front20200818143044/

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Note: Not sure how reliable the info is.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295662972086284288If true then I guess Tejas is at AFS Uttarlai, Naliya will have the MiG-29UPG on a det from Jamnagar(First Supersonics 28)
> and so ruled out.
> Plus no single engined jets are employed for ops over the ocean as far as I know.



It is a big day for Indian aviation. The last time an indigenous fighter was deployed in a combat role at the border was when HF-24 Maruts were still in service. That is of course if we discount the Ajeet, which was an indigenous development of the Gnat.

Times of India is also reporting it as are other national newspapers, so it seems genuine. The No.45 Squadron Tejas fighters have apparently been deployed at forward air bases since June 2020.

Livefist is coming out with an article on this news shortly.

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## proudindian20

Tejas Mk2 with Astra mounted will be a game changer in the coming years

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

proudindian20 said:


> Tejas Mk2 with Astra mounted will be a game changer in the coming years



It should be able to counter JF-17 Block 3 which is also a small size combat jet.

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## MirageBlue

proudindian20 said:


> Tejas Mk2 with Astra mounted will be a game changer in the coming years



Astra Mk2, a.k.a SFDR will see carriage trials in a few months time. Tenders for that have been released. 

SFDR is the Indian Meteor ramjet equivalent BVRAAM.

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## MirageBlue

rockstarIN said:


> We can arm LCA with meteor if our AESA radar is indigenous. MBDA will allow hopefully



As I recall, when MBDA refused to allow the Meteor to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A fitted with the Elta 2052 AESA radar, they said that they wanted 2 functioning prototypes of the radar to be delivered to MBDA in addition to details regarding data formats and radar's capabilities. Not sure whether IAF and LRDE will want to hand over one or two Uttam radars to MBDA for them to work on integrating the Meteor to the Uttam. 

I would not hold my breath, expecting Meteor integration with Uttam. The Astra MK2 based on the SFDR technology is a far better prospect in terms of possibility of entering service with the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Tejas Mk 2 will take a while. 10 years from now it could have first flight.


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## proudindian20

Austin Powers said:


> Tejas Mk 2 will take a while. 10 years from now it could have first flight.



I don't think it'll take 10 years. First prototype will fly in next 5 years.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

proudindian20 said:


> I don't think it'll take 10 years. First prototype will fly in next 5 years.



F414 is bigger than F404. It'll take a full redesign. F-18 powered by F404 first flight 1980. F-18 powered by F414 first flight 1995. A whole 15 years later.

Tejas Mk 2 powered by F414 should have first flight in 2030.


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## KapitaanAli

At the current rate of things, I won't be surprised by 2030. Pray for long life.

Production by 2030 is ideal.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

KapitaanAli said:


> At the current rate of things, I won't be surprised by 2030. Pray for long life.
> 
> Production by 2030 is ideal.



Realistically, considering how slow India is compared to the US, 2030 first flight, 2035 production, 2040 induction is likely


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## MirageBlue

Austin Powers said:


> Tejas Mk 2 will take a while. 10 years from now it could have first flight.



Nope. Metal cutting on the first prototype of the Tejas Mk2 MWF will be next year. Expect the first prototype to roll out in 2023 and first flight 6-8 months after that, if things go as planned currently.

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## polanski

Where Is Indian Tejas MKII And AMCA In The Global Fighter Jets Competition?: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...d-of-envisioned-tejas-mkii-and-amca-fighters/


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## MirageBlue

Gorgeous shot of the Tejas Mk1 during an aerial display, emerging from a loop.

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## polanski

“Make In India” Or “Disaster In India”: Why Indian Defense Projects delayed or cancelled?: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/19/what-did-go-wrong-with-major-make-in-india-projects/


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## MirageBlue

Updates on the FOC Tejas fighters being built at HAL.

SP-22 and SP-23 will be having their first flights soon, possibly within a week or two. They've finished their LSTT and HSTT. 

SP-24, SP-25 and SP-26 are in various stages of equipping and should be delivered this year.

The remaining FOC fighters should be on the production jigs by March 2021, meaning they should be delivered on schedule. 

FOC fighters have had further software updates, as can be made out by the fact that SP-21 is undergoing those updates and checks. 

So, by March 2021, No.18 Squadron should have 8 Tejas Mk1 FOC single seat fighters handed over to them. More than enough to begin operations.

SP-22 (which will be numbered LA-5018 in IAF service) seen below








> Two fighters from the Tejas Final Operational Clearance (FOC) block - SP-22 & SP-23 - are likely to take to the skies in the coming days, signalling the resumption of flight activities that were halted for a while.
> 
> An official from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) told Onmanorama that the flight trials of these two fighters will be completed by the end of this month.
> 
> The low and high speed taxi trials of both fighters have been completed. The LCA-Tejas Division of HAL is currently finishing the activities ahead of their first flights. SP-23 is manufactured by HAL’s Aircraft Division.
> 
> “The FOC variants getting ready for delivery/flight are loaded with updated software to meet the operational requirements of Indian Air Force (IAF). The production rate has been enhanced at LCA and Aircraft Divisions. Structural work are in advanced stages,” the official told Onmanorama.
> 
> HAL hopes that by the end of this production year, the fuselages of the remaining FOC fighters will be loaded on to their respective jigs.
> 
> An IAF official overseeing the Tejas production activities told Onmanorama that to void further delays, HAL has been told to ensure similar build-standards for all FOC variants, especially SP-21, SP-22 and SP-23, to start with.
> 
> “This would meet our operational and maintenance requirements," the top official said.
> 
> A team consisting of representatives from IAF, HAL, Aeronautical Development Agency, Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness and Regional Director Aeronautical Quality Assurance is looking into all aspects of the FOC variants, ahead of clearing them for flights.
> 
> Production Rate
> 
> HAL is working towards delivering the FOC aircraft to IAF without having any pending concessions. Production rate is expected to be enhanced, once the vendors start delivering major assemblies.
> 
> “With the lessons from the production of 16 IOC (Initial Operational Clearance) fighters, lots of improvements have been made during the initial build of the FOC structures,” the official said.
> 
> SP-21, the first Tejas FOC fighter that flew in March this year was produced by HAL in a record time of 12 months, post release of the documents.
> 
> The aircraft was subsequently delivered to the IAF in May and is currently undergoing software upgrade and post-delivery checks. It is expected to be with IAF Squadron by the end of this month.
> 
> HAL has put in reinforced efforts to meet the demands of IAF with the manufacturing of detail parts of all FOC fighters almost completed.
> 
> “Now the focus is on the completion of structural build of aircraft which are planned to be produced during this financial year. The first three aircraft are in advanced stage of delivery and another three (SP-24, SP-25, SP-26) are in various stages of equipping,” the official added.
> 
> Pandemic Pause
> 
> The COVID-19 lockdown and associated delays too have dented the production plans of HAL.
> 
> “The pandemic has affected our plans and even hit some of the supply chain logistics. But, we never took shelter under these excuses and have provided uninterrupted support to IAF, even during complete lockdown period. We deputed multiple teams to support Tejas fleet and are further improving the serviceability through reducing the turnaround time and ensuring spare stocks in surplus,” the official added.
> 
> COVD-19 has impacted the supply chain, slowing down some of the production activities considerably. HAL is now gearing up to meet the FY targets through innovations such as flexible time approach and dynamically balancing the production lines.
> 
> “We are planning to maximise the deliveries despite the lockdown-induced slowdown in supply chain. The target is to produce eight aircraft by end of this FY and this could be enhanced if the supplies from our business partners improve,” the official added.
> 
> On the measures being put in place to improve the supply chain management, the official said efforts are on to bring back normalcy.
> 
> “The foreign supply chain is the worst hit. Since LCA-Tejas Division follows the integrator model, any supply chain disruption will bring in risk for timelines. We are working closely with our partners to tide over the current situation. We are supporting them financially and technically to come out of current situation. We have given relief to our business partners for the delay caused due to COVID-19-related lockdown,” the official added.
> 
> Meanwhile, detail part manufacturing work is currently underway for manufacturing of eight Tejas FOC trainer aircraft. The jigs are being calibrated for structural assembly and if HAL sticks to the current plan, the first trainer will fly out by end of next year.

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## KapitaanAli



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## MirageBlue

More beautiful Tejas Mk1 images..from the 88th IAF Day display flight.

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## KapitaanAli

After LCA getting those roundels, NATO should give it the reporting name "Moth".


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## polanski

Indian ATS Arrests A HAL Employee For Supplying Aircraft Information to Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...r-supplying-aircraft-information-to-pakistan/


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## Lord Of Gondor

Historic day for Indian Aerospace sector

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323263824162508801

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## undercover JIX



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## MirageBlue

The last image of the Tejas in full size

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## undercover JIX

MirageBlue said:


> The last image of the Tejas in full size


I wanted the members to see description on top of the Teja Bahadur.


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## The Maverick

looks like mirage2000


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## no smoking

The Maverick said:


> looks like mirage2000



Not a surprise since Dassault provided consultancy from the beginning.


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## Yasser76

in a few weeks it will be 2021. Tejas first flight was in 2001. Still no combat ready squadron. Has to be a world record....


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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> in a few weeks it will be 2021. Tejas first flight was in 2001. Still no combat ready squadron. Has to be a world record....



Already flying at Pak borders...


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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Already flying at Pak borders...



Yes, anyone can fly a few prototypes near a border, but if your definition of success if 3 planes flying a few hundred miles from Pakistan instead of widespread frontline service after 20 years than you are actually proving my point for me.........


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## letsrock

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Already flying at Pak borders...



How are they flying at border when their base station is in Tamil Nadu


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## Yasser76

letsrock said:


> How are they flying at border when their base station is in Tamil Nadu



They deployed there for a few days. First and last time probably. They will scrap Tejas in 1-2 years


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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> They deployed there for a few days. First and last time probably. They will scrap Tejas in 1-2 years



It will be scrapped after jf 17 because Jf 17 (block 1 and 2) gonna to absolute at very soon as same as J-7.

actualy, players are Hal Tejas Mk1a/Mk2 and JF 17 block 3...


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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> It will be scrapped after jf 17 because Jf 17 (block 1 and 2) gonna to absolute at very soon as same as J-7.
> 
> actualy, players are Hal Tejas Mk1a/Mk2 and JF 17 block 3...



I cannot understand a word of your first sentence.


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## Raj-Hindustani

letsrock said:


> How are they flying at border when their base station is in Tamil Nadu



During the peace time it is permanent base but if it is required than immediately will move to forward bases.









IAF deploys LCA Tejas along Pakistan border amid tensions with China


The first LCA Tejas squadron, based out of Sulur under the Southern Air Command, has been deployed there in an operational role, sources said.




theprint.in






Yasser76 said:


> I cannot understand a word of your first sentence.



Thank you- please don't need to understand.

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## letsrock

Raj-Hindustani said:


> During the peace time it is permanent base but if it is required than immediately will move to forward bases.


Is india in state of war now ? where is lca stationed now


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## Nityam

letsrock said:


> Is india in state of war now ? where is lca stationed now



Can you Guess ?


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## Ali_Baba

MirageBlue said:


> The last image of the Tejas in full size




HAL has serious quality control issues here it seems, just look at how much the paint job is peeling off the aircraft itself. Wonder what else, under the skin has has the "same love and care.."

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## Lord Of Gondor

When someone lacks design know how on an advanced composite supersonic jet, such stupid comments are expected

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309660946403475456

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310373893115265024

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## Ali_Baba

Lord Of Gondor said:


> When someone lacks design know how on an advanced composite supersonic jet, such stupid comments are expected
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309660946403475456
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310373893115265024



Those "patches" are far to random and disorganised to the product of organised thought or a plan. It is paint peels from the subsurface conducting layer for sure.


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## MirageBlue

letsrock said:


> How are they flying at border when their base station is in Tamil Nadu



They've been having multiple detachments sent to forward bases up north.


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## Anik101

Ali_Baba said:


> Those "patches" are far to random and disorganised to the product of organised thought or a plan. It is paint peels from the subsurface conducting layer for sure.


Tejas LSPs and prototypes had those random conducting patches. The one in service has conducting tapes instead of random patches as can be seen in pic below.

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## MirageBlue

In what will be a big move for the Tejas fleet, Astra Mk1 BVRAAMs are to be flight tested from Tejas Mk1 fighters soon.

And DRDO is planning to test the 160 km dual pulse Astra Mk2 BVRAAMs next year. Astra Mk3 will be based on the SFDR technology demonstrator and is being designed to be India's own Meteor. 

Astra Mk1 missile to be soon tested from Tejas fighter



> India’s first indigenous air-to-air missile Astra will soon be tested from the first home-grown fighter Tejas, in yet another major step towards making the weapon the mainstay of the country’s combat fleet against hostile jets in the years ahead.
> 
> The integration of the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which flies over four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5, on the Tejas and the “initial ground trials” are virtually complete now. “The flight trials of the indigenous missile on the indigenous fighter will begin within the next few months,” said a source on Thursday.
> ...*
> DRDO also plans to begin testing the Mark-2 version of Astra, with a range of 160-km, in the first half of next year. Plans are concurrently underway for a 350-km range Astra Mark-3 as well, said the sources. *

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## KapitaanAli

Mk2:

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## MirageBlue

KapitaanAli said:


> Mk2:
> 
> View attachment 691961



This table goes with that image of where the fuel tanks and drop tanks are located. 

3 separate saddle tanks and RH and LH wing tanks for fuel. Total 3388 kgs of internal fuel, which exceeds that of the Mirage-2000. With the drop tanks, it can carry a total of 7148 kgs of fuel. With a single F-414 engine, which has a low SFC, the range will be even greater than that of the Mirage-2000.

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## Daghalodi

KapitaanAli said:


> Mk2:
> 
> View attachment 691961



No Canards??


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## MirageBlue

Daghalodi said:


> No Canards??



Canards are there..just that in the image their transparency is increased so that the internal saddle tanks can be seen clearly.


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## Yasser76

Thread gone quiet? No update from supapowa?

Was contract for 83 MK 1A's not supposed to be signed by now? As you kept telling us?

Also how many Tejas delivered by HAL this year? 6?

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## Deino

Yasser76 said:


> Thread gone quiet? No update from supapowa?
> 
> Was contract for 83 MK 1A's not supposed to be signed by now? As you kept telling us?
> 
> Also how many Tejas delivered by HAL this year? 6?




seems so


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341704405763170306

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## Raj-Hindustani



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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> View attachment 701748



Love it when you clowns put up this same old drawing. Highlights the fact every major important piece of the LCA is foreign, has the opposite effect of what is intended.....

Also forgets a Russian flag for the missile.....

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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> Love it when you clowns put up this same old drawing. Highlights the fact every major important piece of the LCA is foreign, has the opposite effect of what is intended.....
> 
> Also forgets a Russian flag for the missile.....



We know jealously about Pakistani friends. I have only two words:

1. Please even design and develop at least a trainer aircraft then might you can eligible to criticize on HAL Tejas.

2. EF, SAB Gripen and many other aircrafts use few components from other country but it is called indigenous product. The same goes to India....... It is designed, tested and developed by India by using few components from the other country as similar to other aircrafts.

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## khansaheeb

Raj-Hindustani said:


> We know jealously about Pakistani friends. I have only two words:
> 
> 1. Please even design and develop at least a trainer aircraft then might you can eligible to criticize on HAL Tejas.
> 
> 2. EF, SAB Gripen and many other aircrafts use few components from other country but it is called indigenous product. The same goes to India....... It is designed, tested and developed by India by using few components from the other country as similar to other aircrafts.


What nonsense are you talking about? The entire LCA technology is foreign supplied/copied, nothing is indigenous. Russia, Israel, French etc have given you all the tech and knowledge and you still can't make the plane.


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## Raj-Hindustani

khansaheeb said:


> What nonsense are you talking about? The entire LCA technology is foreign supplied/copied, nothing is indigenous. Russia, Israel, French etc have given you all the tech and knowledge and you still can't make the plane.



As I said that we know the jealously.

I don't want to start for Jf 17 - They way you are trolling that way I could easily say that it is not even made by Chinese.

It was designed by soviet, engine is from Russia, gun from Russia, injection seat from UK..etc.... I can list down.
But I don't like to troll just for trolling! I am much aware about fact that it s developed by Chinese for Pakistan with requirements and inputs from PAF with assistance. Also Financially, it is a join product but not technically.

Major imported part of LCA is only engine and radar.......

RADAR is already underdevelopment but problematic is engine.


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## Daghalodi

Raj-Hindustani said:


> As I said that we know the jealously.
> 
> I don't want to start for Jf 17 - They way you are trolling that way I could easily say that it is not even made by Chinese.
> 
> It was designed by soviet, engine is from Russia, gun from Russia, injection seat from UK..etc.... I can list down.
> But I don't like to troll just for trolling! I am much aware about fact that it s developed by Chinese for Pakistan with requirements and inputs from PAF with assistance. Also Financially, it is a join product but not technically.
> 
> Major imported part of LCA is only engine and radar.......
> 
> RADAR is already underdevelopment but problematic is engine.



You say you dont want to troll yet your still trolling.

Why are you talking about JF17?? This thread is about LCA not about JF17.

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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> We know jealously about Pakistani friends. I have only two words:
> 
> 1. Please even design and develop at least a trainer aircraft then might you can eligible to criticize on HAL Tejas.
> 
> 2. EF, SAB Gripen and many other aircrafts use few components from other country but it is called indigenous product. The same goes to India....... It is designed, tested and developed by India by using few components from the other country as similar to other aircrafts.



Nothing to do with jealousy. 8 Squadrons of in service JF-17s in PAF and Block III production commencing. It's about having enough modern cutting edge planes that Pak can service and support. PAF never claimed Thunder was domestic, clue is in the actual name (Joint Fighter), we just need a cheap plane we can support ourselves in high numbers. JF-17 has delivered that. India tried the same and failed, big time.

2021 will be the year LCA is finally put out of it's misery and cancelled and will be the year the first Block IIIs will join PAF. Hope your stacked up on Burnol....


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345993402375155713

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345959310866567168Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal flew the LCA on the maiden flight, was decorated with the Kirti Chakra for the achievement
His Citation:


> Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal (15696) F(P) was commissioned as a Fighter Pilot in the Indian Air Force on 15th June, 1979. After successful stints in various fighter squadrons, he served as Flight Commander in a front-line air superiority MiG-29 squadron. On completion of this tenure, he was selected to undergo the Experimental Test Pilot Course at the United States Air Force Test Pilot School. He graduated successfully from this prestigious Institution in May, 1990. In February 1995, Wg Cdr Kothiyal was selected for the challenging assignment of being the Test Pilot for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. Since then he has been actively involved in every facet of the design and development of the LCA, providing the most important pilot interface to the LCA project. The successful development of control law for the Digital Fly-By Wire Control system, the Cockpit architecture and the pilot’s check lists and emergency procedures are attributed to Wg Cdr Kothiyal’s professional diligence and application of mind. Having successfully participated in the development activities, Wg Cdr Kothiyal was entrusted with the task of undertaking the maiden flight of the first prototype of the LCA on 04 Jan 2001. This was the first occasion when an aircraft fully developed in India was to fly with a Fly-by-Wire System. This complex system is packed with computerized flying controls, which enable an unstable aircraft to be flown with a very high degree of agility. Wg Cdr Kothiyal meticulously planned the test flight and ensured that every contingency was catered for Wg Cdr Kothiyal flew the maiden test flight in the most exemplary manner.
> 
> 
> Wg Cdr Rajiv Kothiyal in this pioneering act displayed exceptional professionalism, courage and bravery that were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Indian Air Force.


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## Deino

Interesting and hopefully it will be finalised this time, but we all know the term "soon" and "could possible be concluded" has a very different meaning in India! 😉 









Contract for 56 C-295 transport aircraft, 83 LCA-MK1A soon


Deal, expected to cost around ₹38,000 cr., could possibly be concluded at Aero India 2021 in Feb., says defence official




www.thehindu.com


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## Yasser76

Deino said:


> Interesting and hopefully it will be finalised this time, but we all know the term "soon" and "could possible be concluded" has a very different meaning in India! 😉
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contract for 56 C-295 transport aircraft, 83 LCA-MK1A soon
> 
> 
> Deal, expected to cost around ₹38,000 cr., could possibly be concluded at Aero India 2021 in Feb., says defence official
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thehindu.com



The "Emergency" order for surplus MIG-29s and SU-30s they made urgently after Feb 27th 2019 has still not been signed, almost two years now.

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> The "Emergency" order for surplus MIG-29s and SU-30s they made urgently after Feb 27th 2019 has still not been signed, almost two years now.






Yasser76 said:


> The "Emergency" order for surplus MIG-29s and SU-30s they made urgently after Feb 27th 2019 has still not been signed, almost two years now.




not overly concerned about mig29upg fighters or more mki.

really want the tejas,mark1a,
my thinking is based on aesa radar and the new,extended range Derby missles and low rcs and usa engines,making tejas very good addition to air Force.

we already have 330 mki and mig29 in airforce alone 

tejas,1a is new technology


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> not overly concerned about mig29upg fighters or more mki.
> 
> really want the tejas,mark1a,
> my thinking is based on aesa radar and the new,extended range Derby missles and low rcs and usa engines,making tejas very good addition to air Force.
> 
> we already have 330 mki and mig29 in airforce alone
> 
> tejas,1a is new technology




" really want the tejas,mark1a, " I bet you do.....


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## White and Green with M/S

The Maverick said:


> not overly concerned about mig29upg fighters or more mki.
> 
> really want the tejas,mark1a,
> my thinking is based on aesa radar and the new,extended range Derby missles and low rcs and usa engines,making tejas very good addition to air Force.
> 
> we already have 330 mki and mig29 in airforce alone
> 
> tejas,1a is new technology


Your m
Tej@$$ is no where near that the class of MKI or MIG 29 these are world MAJOR and popular jets

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## The Maverick

White and Green with M/S said:


> Your m
> Tej@$$ is no where near that the class of MKI or MIG 29 these are world MAJOR and popular jets



Your missing the points 
tejas will have the best aesa radar bar the Rafale ie better than Russian bars pesa on mki and better than zhuk me aesa on mig29.

the tejas has better engines ie more advanced more maintenance free 

tejas had miles better flight control.and airframe than both mki and mig29 

what we don't have is brute power of mki and mig29


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## Vanamali

Yasser76 said:


> Nothing to do with jealousy. 8 Squadrons of in service JF-17s in PAF and Block III production commencing. It's about having enough modern cutting edge planes that Pak can service and support. PAF never claimed Thunder was domestic, clue is in the actual name (Joint Fighter), we just need a cheap plane we can support ourselves in high numbers. JF-17 has delivered that. India tried the same and failed, big time.
> 
> 2021 will be the year LCA is finally put out of it's misery and cancelled and will be the year the first Block IIIs will join PAF. Hope your stacked up on Burnol....


Let me ask question differently... Just for the sake of argument, if tomorrow China stops cooperation with Pak in all aspects, how much of JF17 can be manufactured by Pak (if it has option of suppliers other than China for various parts), give me in %...


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## White and Green with M/S

The Maverick said:


> Your missing the points
> tejas will have the best aesa radar bar the Rafale ie better than Russian bars pesa on mki and better than zhuk me aesa on mig29.
> 
> the tejas has better engines ie more advanced more maintenance free
> 
> tejas had miles better flight control.and airframe than both mki and mig29
> 
> what we don't have is brute power of mki and mig29


Can your Tejas compete with latest gen of F-16/F-15 equiped with AESA and other latest avionics, please give me my that question????


----------



## Trango Towers

SQ8 said:


> Please continue all discussion from this thread here.
> HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 689
> 
> Anyone have any numbers on projected life cycle cost of Tejas?


Life cycle.....is it born yet?


Echo_419 said:


> Yahoo,I am the 1st one to post on this thread
> On topic
> Life cycle cost will be significantly lower than MKIs or the Rafael


Wellfone for postings 1st
Your response is as good as a chocolate fire guard


----------



## Yasser76

Vanamali said:


> Let me ask question differently... Just for the sake of argument, if tomorrow China stops cooperation with Pak in all aspects, how much of JF17 can be manufactured by Pak (if it has option of suppliers other than China for various parts), give me in %...



Same situation if US/Israel stops cooperation with India tomorrow, how much of LCA will be manufactured in India?


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## Vanamali

Yasser76 said:


> Same situation if US/Israel stops cooperation with India tomorrow, how much of LCA will be manufactured in India?


We have already stocked up engines, so in next 12 months we can produce up to 8 planes and for future we will get Engine from France and we use our avionics and will build it... now answer about J17, if China stops co-operating with Pak today, in next 12 months how many J17 can be produced??


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## Trango Towers

Vanamali said:


> We have already stocked up engines, so in next 12 months we can produce up to 8 planes and for future we will get Engine from France and we use our avionics and will build it... now answer about J17, if China stops co-operating with Pak today, in next 12 months how many J17 can be produced??


China has invested billions in Pakistan. Its shoring up defence cooperation. Why would it risk its investment and make Pakistan weaker. The reason you have lost between 1000 and 4000 sq km (your politicians figures not mine) is because you threatened Pakistan. If anything the future looks even brighter for Pakistan.

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## Yasser76

Vanamali said:


> We have already stocked up engines, so in next 12 months we can produce up to 8 planes and for future we will get Engine from France and we use our avionics and will build it... now answer about J17, if China stops co-operating with Pak today, in next 12 months how many J17 can be produced??



You stocked up engines and radars?????

Complete and utter rubbish, you have not even ordered the engines from GE or radar from Israel. If those two refuse to deliver you will then need new engines and radar and even further delay.

JF-17 can use Russian or Chinese engines 

JF-17 can use Italian or Chinese radar

At a push we can incorporate Turkish tech too.

Like LCA, JF-17 has choices and it was designed from the outset, the very outset, to be adaptable to customer requirements


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## Vanamali

Yasser76 said:


> You stocked up engines and radars?????
> 
> Complete and utter rubbish, you have not even ordered the engines from GE or radar from Israel. If those two refuse to deliver you will then need new engines and radar and even further delay.
> 
> JF-17 can use Russian or Chinese engines
> 
> JF-17 can use Italian or Chinese radar
> 
> At a push we can incorporate Turkish tech too.
> 
> Like LCA, JF-17 has choices and it was designed from the outset, the very outset, to be adaptable to customer requirements


You didn't answer... Going round and round... Quote me no of planes Pak can produce in next 12 months with out China.


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## ziaulislam

Vanamali said:


> We have already stocked up engines, so in next 12 months we can produce up to 8 planes and for future we will get Engine from France and we use our avionics and will build it... now answer about J17, if China stops co-operating with Pak today, in next 12 months how many J17 can be produced??


Jf17 is joint venture so obviously if one patner leaves pakistan wont be able to continue the thunder project.
Also the engine is provided by russia to china..

If however china allows it then give past experience of mamufacturing 

pakistan will be able to manfacturer rest of airframe as it already does 60%

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## White and Green with M/S

Vanamali said:


> You didn't answer... Going round and round... Quote me no of planes Pak can produce in next 12 months with out China.



no sir and stick to the topic please , this is Tejas thread not JFT thread, thanks you sir


----------



## Vanamali

Trango Towers said:


> China has invested billions in Pakistan. Its shoring up defence cooperation. Why would it risk its investment and make Pakistan weaker. The reason you have lost between 1000 and 4000 sq km (your politicians figures not mine) is because you threatened Pakistan. If anything the future looks even brighter for Pakistan.


My question is direct... Can you produce JF17 without china? If yes, how many... You can say no/stay silent/discuss anything under sky...


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Vanamali said:


> My question is direct... Can you produce JF17 without china? If yes, how many... You can say no/stay silent/discuss anything under sky...


Can you produce your Tejas without any foreign help, (From Israel/France/USA) please tell us???


----------



## Vanamali

ziaulislam said:


> Jf17 is joint venture so obviously if one patner leaves pakistan wont be able to continue the thunder project.
> Also the engine is provided by russia to china..
> 
> If however china allows it then give past experience of mamufacturing
> 
> pakistan will be able to manfacturer rest of airframe as it already does 60%


Thanks for your honest reply...
I will leave it here because we would be off topic


----------



## Vanamali

White and Green with M/S said:


> Can you produce your Tejas without any foreign help, (From Israel/France/USA) please tell us???


Without Foreign assistant... No as of now..
I think it's same with China...


White and Green with M/S said:


> Can you produce your Tejas without any foreign help, (From Israel/France/USA) please tell us???


Question to question is not answer.... If Pak can, quote numbere else....


----------



## ziaulislam

Vanamali said:


> Thanks for your honest reply...
> I will leave it here because we would be off topic


Tejas and jf17 are projects with different set of goals

Tejas was for india to gain experience in manfacturing after it already did multiple JV and underlisence projects

While jf17 was PAC first attempt for anything (PAC only built saab propellar and parts for k8)
Also jf17 was meant for mass production and was a safe design 

Tejas unfortunately suffered from bad design(lack of canrads) this will be rectified with mk2 but mk2 is essentially a new aircraft 

Tejas was never liked by IAF even now it is reluctant buy, but jf17 is something PAF is pretty much satisfied with..

Jf17 was suppose to be minimilistic ..every move was made to cut the cost, a dual seater was therefore never planned, fly by wire was selective and design was conservative 

Only later PAC saw potent of jf17 and interest, it then scrabled to build a twin seater.
It also decided to make it a 4.5 th fighter beyond the standarad order of 150AC. the changes were made possible by incredible advances in china

With full FBW, a new solid engine with thrust equivalent to ge414(rd93ma), an AESA radar, jf 17 will surely find alot of sucess

Tejas scrapped the canrads and decreased the length of aircraft a bad design move that hunts DRDO/HAL till now.

When it comes to export market, tejas mk1 will not be brought by anyone its flawed design. Tejas mk2 is what tejas should have been(see gripen, same engine)


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Vanamali said:


> Without Foreign assistant... No as of now..
> I think it's same with China...
> 
> Question to question is not answer.... If Pak can, quote numbere else....


You're derailing your own thread dude, why you bring JFT in your threads???

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## Yasser76

Vanamali said:


> You didn't answer... Going round and round... Quote me no of planes Pak can produce in next 12 months with out China.



JF-17 is assembled in Pakistan, if so it can be made with Italian radar and Russian engines, I did answer that. You failed to answer your BS about some secret massive stockpile of engines that India has for LCA that only you know about, please share information. This is an LCA thread remember.....


----------



## Novice09

White and Green with M/S said:


> Can your Tejas compete with latest gen of F-16/F-15 equiped with AESA and other latest avionics, please give me my that question????



No... It can't...


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Novice09 said:


> No... It can't...


 So Why @The Maverick saying that you Tejas is better than all MKI and Mig-29 versions, including Russian air force versions???


----------



## Yasser76

White and Green with M/S said:


> You're derailing your own thread dude, why you bring JFT in your threads???



As he has no reply for LCA failure


----------



## Novice09

Yasser76 said:


> JF-17 is assembled in Pakistan, if so it can be made with Italian radar and Russian engines, I did answer that. You failed to answer your BS about some secret massive stockpile of engines that India has for LCA that only you know about, please share information. This is an LCA thread remember.....



Engines are our major concern... that is why we are actively trying to get required technology from west... and most of us know that none is willing to provide it to us... we have to do it own our own... Period...

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## Yasser76

Novice09 said:


> Engines are our major concern... that is why we are actively trying to get required technology from west... and most of us know that none is willing to provide it to us... we have to do it own our own... Period...



Agreed, but we both know that this is impossible with regards to LCA. In future, perhaps, but right now Kavari has failed and if US withold those engines it will delay LCA by another few years as you source a new engine and integrate it. That is the fundamental weakness here. US can stop LCA in it's tracks (for the short term) should it ever decide, although I think it is unlikley.

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## Novice09

White and Green with M/S said:


> So Why @The Maverick saying that you Tejas is better than all MKI and Mig-29 versions, including Russian air force versions???



Every jet has its pros and cons... do you know why we are not upgrading MKIs with Russian help... because we have developed better radar and some other components in India (due to Tejas program)... we are also working on several other components... but MKI is the back bone of IAF... as of now...

At the end of the day... synergy between your various assets decide the outcome of a conflict...


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Novice09 said:


> Every jet has its pros and cons... do you know why we are not upgrading MKIs with Russian help... because we have developed better radar and some other components in India (due to Tejas program)... we are also working on several other components... but MKI is the back bone of IAF... as of now...
> 
> At the end of the day... synergy between your various assets decide the outcome of a conflict...


Ok but Tejas is small jet as compare MKI, which means less radar/ECM/EW range as well as less upgradation as compere to MKI, might be you're developing your base through LCA project


----------



## Novice09

Yasser76 said:


> Agreed, but we both know that this is impossible with regards to LCA. In future, perhaps, but right now Kavari has failed and if US withold those engines it will delay LCA by another few years as you source a new engine and integrate it. That is the fundamental weakness here. US can stop LCA in it's tracks (for the short term) should it ever decide, *although I think it is unlikley*.



You answered your self... on Engine... I really want to see US reaction once S-400 is procured... I feel that India is ready plan B... France and UK...

Tejas... it does not matter how much people make fun of this jet... but the truth is, "Tejas" is creating an aerospace industry in India... Delayed but successful...


----------



## Yasser76

Novice09 said:


> You answered your self... on Engine... I really want to see US reaction once S-400 is procured... I feel that India is ready plan B... France and UK...
> 
> Tejas... it does not matter how much people make fun of this jet... but the truth is, "Tejas" is creating an aerospace industry in India... Delayed but successful...



There is no doubt about it, India is learning valuable lessons on aviation and gaining much experiance on Tejas. One would have to be a fool not to believe that, what we do debate is the knight in shining armour and answer to all the IAF problems that many of the forum make it out to be. As a tech demonstrator and project to enhance Indian aerospace skills it can be deemed a success, as a mass produced, cheap replacement for the MIG-21 that it was set out to be it has failed.


----------



## MirageBlue

From IAF's Twitter

2 Tejas Mk1s from No.45 Squadron escorting a Netra AEW&C

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## Lord Of Gondor

$6.5B(₹48000 Cr) deal for Tejas Mark-1A cleared by CCS!
(Only the signing formality awaits, maybe will be done during AI2021?)
Landmark deal in Indian Aerospace History.

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## Yasser76

Lord Of Gondor said:


> $6.5B(₹48000 Cr) deal for Tejas Mark-1A cleared by CCS!
> (Only the signing formality awaits, maybe will be done during AI2021?)
> Landmark deal in Indian Aerospace History.



This deal was "cleared" in March 2020 I believe? Still not signed. Are we celebrating news that is not actually news?









Defence ministry clears ₹38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets


The LCA Mk-1A will come with additional improvements over the FOC aircraft, making it the most advanced Tejas variant so far.




www.hindustantimes.com


----------



## Mighty Lion

Yasser76 said:


> This deal was "cleared" in March 2020 I believe? Still not signed. Are we celebrating news that is not actually news?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defence ministry clears ₹38,000 cr deal for 83 advanced Tejas jets
> 
> 
> The LCA Mk-1A will come with additional improvements over the FOC aircraft, making it the most advanced Tejas variant so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hindustantimes.com


That was DAC clearance. Files go from RFI to RFP stage and then to IAF accquisition cell to DAC to costing committee and then again to DAC and finally to CCS. CCS and contract signing are same as CCS is basically god of Indias security matters.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134425631884697601

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## Yasser76

Mighty Lion said:


> That was DAC clearance. Files go from RFI to RFP stage and then to IAF accquisition cell to DAC to costing committee and then again to DAC and finally to CCS. CCS and contract signing are same as CCS is basically god of Indias security matters.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134425631884697601



Be that so, Cabinet "cleared" many purchases that were either never signed, cancelled or signed many years later. Maybe wait till a contract is signed? I thought you lot would of learned this lesson by now. Surplus SU-30s and MIG-29s were "cleared" by your "Gods" straight after Feb 27th but contract still not signed. Get my point?

So much noise, so little action.


----------



## Mighty Lion

Yasser76 said:


> Be that so, Cabinet "cleared" many purchases that were either never signed, cancelled or signed many years later. Maybe wait till a contract is signed? I thought you lot would of learned this lesson by now. Surplus SU-30s and MIG-29s were "cleared" by your "Gods" straight after Feb 27th but contract still not signed. Get my point?
> 
> So much noise, so little action.


Wrong.
CCS never cleared any such deals.
All those were DAC clearances and costing committee talks still on. There have been instances when Mighty CCS did not approve deals placed before it though and sent them back for renegotiations.


----------



## Daghalodi

Mighty Lion said:


> Wrong.
> CCS never cleared any such deals.
> All those were DAC clearances and costing committee talks still on. There have been instances when Mighty CCS did not approve deals placed before it though and sent them back for renegotiations.



Who is the head of CCS? Mukesh Ambani??


----------



## Yasser76

Mighty Lion said:


> Wrong.
> CCS never cleared any such deals.
> All those were DAC clearances and costing committee talks still on. There have been instances when Mighty CCS did not approve deals placed before it though and sent them back for renegotiations.



There have been (many) instances of CCS cleared deals falling apart too. Best keep quiet till signing than have another embaressment of a missed signing deadline....


Daghalodi said:


> Who is the head of CCS? Mukesh Ambani??




Hahahahaha

Watch Aero India come and go with no LCA signing, than Indian fanboys on here invent another excuse...


Mighty Lion said:


> Wrong.
> CCS never cleared any such deals.
> All those were DAC clearances and costing committee talks still on. There have been instances when Mighty CCS did not approve deals placed before it though and sent them back for renegotiations.




You bu**hit too much

" Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s cabinet granted approval to the MoD’s request to spend about $847 million on the purchase, or about $40 million per aircraft. "









India Requests Additional MiG-29 Fighters


India is seeking to acquire first-generation MiG-29s as a means of replenishing its fighter fleet at low cost.




www.ainonline.com


----------



## Mighty Lion

Yasser76 said:


> There have been (many) instances of CCS cleared deals falling apart too. Best keep quiet till signing than have another embaressment of a missed signing deadline..


Fake.
There have been ZERO instances of a deal Cleared by CCS breaking apart.

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## Daghalodi

Yasser76 said:


> There have been (many) instances of CCS cleared deals falling apart too. Best keep quiet till signing than have another embaressment of a missed signing deadline....
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahahaha
> 
> Watch Aero India come and go with no LCA signing, than Indian fanboys on here invent another excuse...
> 
> 
> 
> You bu**hit too much
> 
> " Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s cabinet granted approval to the MoD’s request to spend about $847 million on the purchase, or about $40 million per aircraft. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India Requests Additional MiG-29 Fighters
> 
> 
> India is seeking to acquire first-generation MiG-29s as a means of replenishing its fighter fleet at low cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com



Trust me If Mukesh Ambani gives a go. 

Modis, Yogis and Shahs cannot dare defy it.


----------



## Yasser76

Mighty Lion said:


> Fake.
> There have been ZERO instances of a deal Cleared by CCS breaking apart.




Every tine you post now it is getting embaressing for you

*India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy









India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy


India’s two much-hyped joint ventures (JVs) with Russia are floundering over costs, flawed planning and overreach on achieving 'atmanirbharta' in the military sector.




thewire.in




*


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Yasser76 said:


> Every tine you post now it is getting embaressing for you
> 
> *India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy
> 
> 
> India’s two much-hyped joint ventures (JVs) with Russia are floundering over costs, flawed planning and overreach on achieving 'atmanirbharta' in the military sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thewire.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yaar ignore him, he is just troll with no back up, he thinks he is Military sectory of MODI or minister of defense in India

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## Anik101

Yasser76 said:


> Every tine you post now it is getting embaressing for you
> 
> *India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy
> 
> 
> India’s two much-hyped joint ventures (JVs) with Russia are floundering over costs, flawed planning and overreach on achieving 'atmanirbharta' in the military sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thewire.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


 
Show me where it says that these deals were cleared by CCS. BTW we are happy that these deals have fallen apart. We are now getting Sig716 instead.


----------



## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> Show me where it says that these deals were cleared by CCS. BTW we are happy that these deals have fallen apart. We are now getting Sig716 instead.



So Modi agreed to the deal without Cabinet clearance!?

"Even five years after the agreement between the two governments at the level of President Putin and Prime Minister Modi, "









Cheetah/Chetak Helicopter Replacement Becomes Critical


The Indian Armed Forces continue to fly the outdated, vintage and accident-prone fleet of Cheetah/Chetak helicopters. These helicopters were inducted in the late sixties and seventies and are not only



bharatshakti.in






The recent *intervention* of the Indian *Ministry of Defence* has *removed roadblocks for the production of AK-203 rifles* and an *Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA)* is expected to be signed within *August 2020* 



https://stilldelivery.com.br/diplomacy/exclusive-indian-army-getting-deadly-ak-203-assault-rifles/



So inter government deal was done without cabinet approval? 

You are making yourself look more stupid then usual today, that really takes some doing. Well done.


----------



## Anik101

Yasser76 said:


> So Modi agreed to the deal without Cabinet clearance!?
> 
> "Even five years after the agreement between the two governments at the level of President Putin and Prime Minister Modi, "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheetah/Chetak Helicopter Replacement Becomes Critical
> 
> 
> The Indian Armed Forces continue to fly the outdated, vintage and accident-prone fleet of Cheetah/Chetak helicopters. These helicopters were inducted in the late sixties and seventies and are not only
> 
> 
> 
> bharatshakti.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recent *intervention* of the Indian *Ministry of Defence* has *removed roadblocks for the production of AK-203 rifles* and an *Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA)* is expected to be signed within *August 2020*
> 
> 
> 
> https://stilldelivery.com.br/diplomacy/exclusive-indian-army-getting-deadly-ak-203-assault-rifles/
> 
> 
> 
> So inter government deal was done without cabinet approval?
> 
> You are making yourself look more stupid then usual today, that really takes some doing. Well done.


Deal was signed by MoD after it was cleared by DAC which is headed by defence minister. Cabinet approval will be needed when order is placed as it requires clearance from finance ministry.


----------



## Yasser76

Anik101 said:


> Deal was signed by MoD after it was cleared by DAC which is headed by defence minister. Cabinet approval will be needed when order is placed as it requires clearance from finance ministry.



So to clarify, when Modi agrees a deal with another head of state, it is not worth the paper it is written on until approved by cabinet? So no one takes him seriously? He has no power to negotiate deals?


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

Some neat renders from Twitter user Kuntal Biswas:










Sincerely hope that "Winged Daggers" are resurrected with the Tejas Mark-1A, would be a fitting tribute, considering they were the first ones to be equipped with the Marut in 1967. 




(Vic formation of 5 Marut jets Above Rajpath, 26 Jan 1969)

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## Lord Of Gondor

Program spearheaded by HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Center, they(HAL) last month got the clearance to equip the DARIN-III Jags with the EL/M 2052(54 sets), would make it easier as far as integration efforts go, in the Tejas.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338025258373148674Expect a scaled up Elta radar for the Tejas.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Tweet by the PM

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349399607630036992Interesting is this for me:


> The Cabinet has also approved infrastructure development by IAF under the project to enable them handle repairs or servicing at their base depot so that the turnaround time would get reduced for mission critical systems and would lead to increased availability of aircraft for operational exploitation. This would enable IAF to sustain the fleet more efficiently and effectively due to availability of repair infrastructure at respective bases.


That is over $160M just for infra support!

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## The Maverick

White and Green with M/S said:


> Can your Tejas compete with latest gen of F-16/F-15 equiped with AESA and other latest avionics, please give me my that question????



no it can't 
but thank God it will never face this sort of,technology 

tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders 

even our mark1 tejas with the mechanical elta radar on paper beats your current block 1 and 2 thunders and your entire 200 fleet of mirages and f7.

I won't even talk about the Rafale effect as,a Force multipler


White and Green with M/S said:


> Can you produce your Tejas without any foreign help, (From Israel/France/USA) please tell us???



of course,it's manufactured in indian work shops there is not a foreign adviser anywhere. this is not a joint project with chengdu or dassult or Lockheed

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> no it can't
> but thank God it will never face this sort of,technology
> 
> tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders
> 
> even our mark1 tejas with the mechanical elta radar on paper beats your current block 1 and 2 thunders and your entire 200 fleet of mirages and f7.
> 
> I won't even talk about the Rafale effect as,a Force multipler
> 
> 
> of course,it's manufactured in indian work shops there is not a foreign adviser anywhere. this is not a joint project with chengdu or dassult or Lockheed



I know I know, the plane that is on the drawing board and not flown yet is better than our planes in squadron service.

You are comparing LCA that you will have soon with what PAF has now. Do you see the flaw in your logic here?

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## White and Green with M/S

The Maverick said:


> no it can't
> but thank God it will never face this sort of,technology
> 
> tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders
> 
> even our mark1 tejas with the mechanical elta radar on paper beats your current block 1 and 2 thunders and your entire 200 fleet of mirages and f7.
> 
> I won't even talk about the Rafale effect as,a Force multipler
> 
> 
> of course,it's manufactured in indian work shops there is not a foreign adviser anywhere. this is not a joint project with chengdu or dassult or Lockheed


elta e;lm 2032 range is 150 km as per IAI similar to our older blocks equiped with APG-66 series of radars And our block-52 radar (APG-68v9) range is 400 km

And yes we have slightly lower radar (KLJ-7V2) 135 Km in our block-2 as compare to your ELTA ELM 2032 radar, and so our block-3 AESA has far greater range of that our block-52 F-16


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## White and Green with M/S

The Maverick said:


> tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders


 How you Uttam AESA will have a range of more than 400 km , there is no fighter jet radar that can detect more than 400 km because of line sight limitations (curvature of earth)


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## Dash

White and Green with M/S said:


> How you Uttam AESA will have a range of more than 400 km , there is no fighter jet radar that can detect more than 400 km because of line sight limitations (curvature of earth)



curvature of earth is for ground based radars not airborne

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Agreed, but we both know that this is impossible with regards to LCA. In future, perhaps, but right now Kavari has failed and if US withold those engines it will delay LCA by another few years as you source a new engine and integrate it. That is the fundamental weakness here. US can stop LCA in it's tracks (for the short term) should it ever decide, although I think it is unlikley.


You never know..lookheed martin might pull some strings


Dash said:


> curvature of earth is for ground based radars not airborne


Exactly but also for fighters limited by 40,000ft hight


Lord Of Gondor said:


> $6.5B(₹48000 Cr) deal for Tejas Mark-1A cleared by CCS!
> (Only the signing formality awaits, maybe will be done during AI2021?)
> Landmark deal in Indian Aerospace History.


This is just fly away cost of 81 fighters or does it include ground support equipment


----------



## Yasser76

Dash said:


> curvature of earth is for ground based radars not airborne



So India has produced the most advanced and most powerful fighter AESA in the world, with no experiance that fits into the world's smallest fighter? Is that what you are now claiming?


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## ziaulislam

White and Green with M/S said:


> Your m
> Tej@$$ is no where near that the class of MKI or MIG 29 these are world MAJOR and popular jets


It is more costly then MKI

270 MKI for 8b$
81 tejas for 6.5b

even adjusted for inflation the cost is still much higher almost twice

Even now MKI comes cheaper then tejas


----------



## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> It is more costly then MKI
> 
> 270 MKI for 8b$
> 81 tejas for 6.5b
> 
> even adjusted for inflation the cost is still much higher almost twice
> 
> Even now MKI comes cheaper then tejas



Insanity, all this for a plane that needed 23 waivers just to be accepted. Let's see if MK1A even flies on time....


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

ziaulislam said:


> This is just fly away cost of 81 fighters or does it include ground support equipment


logically it would include everything from developmental costs to fleet sustenance,(and potentially even the Nasik Su-30 MKI line being re tooled) but I am sure we will see a detailed break up in the coming future.

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## ziaulislam

Lord Of Gondor said:


> logically it would include everything from developmental costs to fleet sustenance,(and potentially even the Nasik Su-30 MKI line being re tooled) but I am sure we will see a detailed break up in the coming future.


Why would it
Doesnt make sense since mk1 had a 40 aircraft preorder?


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Dash said:


> curvature of earth is for ground based radars not airborne


so give me one fighter jet radar i said FIGHTER JET radar range whos radar range is more than 400 km with limited power, i am not ttalking about awacs


----------



## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> I know I know, the plane that is on the drawing board and not flown yet is better than our planes in squadron service.
> 
> You are comparing LCA that you will have soon with what PAF has now. Do you see the flaw in your logic here?




I am.answering the specific questions. 
tejas mark 1 is in service with no 45 and no18 sqds 20 planes,and 2 planes respectively. 
yes the mark1 is superior to thunder block 1 and 2 and f7 and mirage in paf.
If maybe inferior to your block 52 thank God you have 18 planes,
55 your mlu f16 mat be superior in terms of amraams and twr but tejas has lower rcs and better hmd

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> I am.answering the specific questions.
> tejas mark 1 is in service with no 45 and no18 sqds 20 planes,and 2 planes respectively.
> yes the mark1 is superior to thunder block 1 and 2 and f7 and mirage in paf.
> If maybe inferior to your block 52 thank God you have 18 planes,
> 55 your mlu f16 mat be superior in terms of amraams and twr but tejas has lower rcs and better hmd




Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed






Defense World


View News at Defense World




www.defenseworld.net

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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net



Do you realized that you are posting 5 years old article.

if it was true then IAF was inducted the HAL Tejas as same as PAK was inducted the Jf 17 block1.

But it is not a case with IAF.

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## VkdIndian

India has an organisation called CAG to look at all aspects of governance and does its audit from all possible angles. They have been ruthless at times and have put governments in dock. They don’t sugar coat anything and audit without looking at certain aspects that may pass the scrutiny if looked at from actual reality aspects.

The CAG has commented that LAC was short on the parameters set by the IAF. Was there any other Indian solution available at that time? Should India have killed the program because it did not meet the QRs set by the IAF? These are practical aspects that CAG has not looked into. These aspects have to be kept in perspective by the planners, which was done and LCA program kept alive. How else would one master the complex science and art of making war planes?
Create a perfect machine in first attempt? Is there any country in the world that has created a perfect platform in its first attempt? One can ask these questions from CAG. But CAG is doing what it is supposed to do. Audit without any bias.

JF-17 block I had multiple issues. No trainer, No capability to carry a lot of weapons, night capability and many more. Pakistan didn’t have many options and decided to induct an aircraft in large numbers even with those shortcomings. But Pakistan doesn’t have a CAG to point these out.

IAF on the contrary was very sure not to induct an underdevelopment aircraft.

Having said that, it would be also right to accept that everything was not right with the LCA program. Biggest issue was HAL not doing adequate work to improve it at the desired rate. This fault was due to lack of cohesion between the IAF, Defence ministry and few other organisations.

But, that has changed in the last few years. Today, LCA has come a long way and is a much more cohesive platform. Will the CAG be happy with it? I don’t think so. There still could be certain issues that don’t meet the QRs set by the IAF. CAG will still point those out to utter joy of watchers on PDF.

IAF has also realised and toned down its stance and its leadership today is more forthcoming with inducting a not so perfect platform. Will it be a perfect platform? May not be. There could be certain aspects that would need refinement. Today, all the organisations involved are ready to play their part to address those rather than be a hurdle. 

The ordered version of 83 LCAs is a well rounded platform. The currently operated version of LCA in two squadrons has given quite a lot of operational experience to the IAF. A lot of teething issues have been ironed out.

At this juncture adversaries are out in full force, trolling and claiming failure of LCA program.
But it has not failed. Delayed definitely and that too by quite a margin. But not failed.

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## Umair Nawaz

lol indian air chief whose moustaches look like a B-2 bomber says teja is better then thunders........if tejas is better then JF-17s then why is IAF buying these hugely expensive foreign jets like Rafales? PAF's CAS has clearly said that JF-17 Block-3 is ahead of Rafale F3R in radars and weapons and then added that this will be the aircraft that will fight the Rafales. So if Teja is better then JF-17 then why are you then buying Rafale which clearly is inferior to Block-3 and as a result to tejas as well? THAT IS IF HE IS RIGHT! Sach btao apne logo ko jhoot na btao, Rafale F3R iss lea buy kia q k Ambanio or unnki reliance walo ko khush karna tha! haha Another goof up by this potato head air chief of their's!


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## Raj-Hindustani

Umair Nawaz said:


> lol indian air chief whose moustaches look like a B-2 bomber says teja is better then thunders........if tejas is better then JF-17s then why is IAF buying these hugely expensive foreign jets like Rafales? P*AF's CAS has clearly said that JF-17 Block-3 is ahead of Rafale F3R in radars a*nd weapons and then added that this will be the aircraft that will fight the Rafales. So if Teja is better then JF-17 then why are you then buying Rafale which clearly is inferior to Block-3 and as a result to tejas as well? THAT IS IF HE IS RIGHT! Sach btao apne logo ko jhoot na btao, Rafale F3R iss lea buy kia q k Ambanio or unnki reliance walo ko khush karna tha! haha Another goof up by this potato head air chief of their's!



You need ask to your CAS, why are they looking J10c/better aircraft if Jf 17 is best.

HAL tejas Mk1 and JF 17 block 2 is more and less equal aircrafts. And, HAL Tejas MK1a and Jf 17 block 3 will be equally the same.

It is all about requirements, IAF has to deal with PLAAF as they have much better aircrafts then Jf17, we need more better aircrafts.

And, Even PAF is looking more capable fighter then Jf 17 because IAF is inducting Rafale and more.

It is a chain system in south Asia.....


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> This is just fly away cost of 81 fighters or does it include ground support equipment



It is the total contract cost. 

It'll include the Airframe + engine + radar + EW suite + avionics + HMDS, etc. + setting up infrastructure at IAF Base Repair Depots so the IAF can repair and maintain the fleet without HAL support.

Will also include spare engines, spare radars, spare HMDS, ground equipment, testing equipment, simulators, maintenance equipment, warranties and most likely a PBL (Performance Based Logistics) type agreement for guaranteed availability of some percentage (e.g. 70% of the fleet available at all times).


ziaulislam said:


> It is more costly then MKI
> 
> 270 MKI for 8b$
> 81 tejas for 6.5b
> 
> even adjusted for inflation the cost is still much higher almost twice
> 
> Even now MKI comes cheaper then tejas



Don't fall for such simplistic analysis.

This kind of a contract is complex to say the least. the Su-30MKI contracts included a lot of other costs separately- for setting up assembly lines, license fees, ToT, setting up facilities to build the engine, radar, etc. and test them. If those costs were accounted for as part of the cost of a single Su-30MKI, then it's cost would also go up by 30-40%. 

The fly-away cost for a Tejas will be ~ USD 50 million. The costliest items are the imported engine and radar and EW suite. But when you add all the other items that are included in such a contract, the costs go up. And buying a fighter is not like buying a car. Repair/maintenance facilities need to be set up and spares for mission critical equipment have to be stocked up. It'll also include services contracts for HAL to ensure that the fleet availability is above 70% at least.

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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Do you realized that you are posting 5 years old article.
> 
> if it was true then IAF was inducted the HAL Tejas as same as PAK was inducted the Jf 17 block1.
> 
> But it is not a case with IAF.



Problems are still there, that is the exact reason IAF is not inducting MK1 and waiting for MK1A. The plane got 23 PERMANENT WAIVERS. Do you know what that means? It's means admitting it does not meet specs and getting it in use anyway. MK1A may be an improvment. May.


Raj-Hindustani said:


> You need ask to your CAS, why are they looking J10c/better aircraft if Jf 17 is best.
> 
> HAL tejas Mk1 and JF 17 block 2 is more and less equal aircrafts. And, HAL Tejas MK1a and Jf 17 block 3 will be equally the same.
> 
> It is all about requirements, IAF has to deal with PLAAF as they have much better aircrafts then Jf17, we need more better aircrafts.
> 
> And, Even PAF is looking more capable fighter then Jf 17 because IAF is inducting Rafale and more.
> 
> It is a chain system in south Asia.....



Even so, the delays to MK1A are such that in a few years JF-17 Block III Production will stop, other JF-17s will be upgraded and India will still be producing MK1As, the longer the delay to MK1A, the greater the chance LCA will not be competing with JF-17, but indeed it's follow on. AZM.

J-10 is seen as potential early F-16 replacement, it's in a different class to JF-17 in terms of light/medium role. Any idiot with any knowledge of aviation would know that.


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## Novice09

The Maverick said:


> no it can't
> but thank God it will never face this sort of,technology
> 
> tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders
> 
> even our mark1 tejas with the mechanical elta radar on paper beats your current block 1 and 2 thunders and your entire 200 fleet of mirages and f7.
> 
> I won't even talk about the Rafale effect as,a Force multipler
> 
> 
> of course,it's manufactured in indian work shops there is not a foreign adviser anywhere. this is not a joint project with chengdu or dassult or Lockheed



but things does not work like this in conflicts... it is always the synergy between various assets... I don't like such comparisons... Food for thought... Compare MiG-21 with F-16... ON PAPER...

Tejas will achieve what Marut failed to... i.e., an ecosystem for aerospace industry... Public Private Partnership Model...


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## MirageBlue

Pakistanis can mock all you want, it won't change anything. The fact is this- 

The Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 will be the backbone of the IAF's single engine fighter fleet at the end of this decade with current orders for 126 fighters and Tejas Mk2 orders to exceed that number. And the IAF is fully backing the program, having seen what the platform's capabilities are. It is also the most affordable solution and most of the money spent is being spent within the country. 

Petty internet trolling will do nothing to alter the facts on the ground. This program will simply grow from strength to strength.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Pakistanis can mock all you want, it won't change anything. The fact is this-
> 
> The Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 will be the backbone of the IAF's single engine fighter fleet at the end of this decade with current orders for 126 fighters and Tejas Mk2 orders to exceed that number. And the IAF is fully backing the program, having seen what the platform's capabilities are. It is also the most affordable solution and most of the money spent is being spent within the country.
> 
> Petty internet trolling will do nothing to alter the facts on the ground. This program will simply grow from strength to strength.



You do not see the irony of your own post do you? You are trying to compare a fighter that has not even flown yet and already talking of it's capabilities. The rest of the world usually waits till it flies and is proven until mouthing off, Indians do the opposite.

So maybe save the bravado posts for when/if MK1A/MK2 flies!?


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## ziaulislam

White and Green with M/S said:


> so give me one fighter jet radar i said FIGHTER JET radar range whos radar range is more than 400 km with limited power, i am not ttalking about awacs


Even awecs will have it tough to go beyond 400-450km due to


MirageBlue said:


> It is the total contract cost.
> 
> It'll include the Airframe + engine + radar + EW suite + avionics + HMDS, etc. + setting up infrastructure at IAF Base Repair Depots so the IAF can repair and maintain the fleet without HAL support.
> 
> Will also include spare engines, spare radars, spare HMDS, ground equipment, testing equipment, simulators, maintenance equipment, warranties and most likely a PBL (Performance Based Logistics) type agreement for guaranteed availability of some percentage (e.g. 70% of the fleet available at all times).
> 
> 
> Don't fall for such simplistic analysis.
> 
> This kind of a contract is complex to say the least. the Su-30MKI contracts included a lot of other costs separately- for setting up assembly lines, license fees, ToT, setting up facilities to build the engine, radar, etc. and test them. If those costs were accounted for as part of the cost of a single Su-30MKI, then it's cost would also go up by 30-40%.
> 
> The fly-away cost for a Tejas will be ~ USD 50 million. The costliest items are the imported engine and radar and EW suite. But when you add all the other items that are included in such a contract, the costs go up. And buying a fighter is not like buying a car. Repair/maintenance facilities need to be set up and spares for mission critical equipment have to be stocked up. It'll also include services contracts for HAL to ensure that the fleet availability is above 70% at least.


50m still very exepensive for fighter which received several waivers
Also every fighter has those cost built in
You dont get fighter without an engine
HAL is taking a too big cut here

IAF should have skipped mk1a and only went for mk2 (as they originally planned)
Or liscene produce gripen NG


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## The Maverick

[QUOTE="ziaulislam, post: 12911874, 

IAF should have skipped mk1a and only went for mk2 (as they originally planned)
Or liscene produce gripen NG
[/QUOTE]


the mark 1a is perfect replacement for 6 operational mig21 bison. we are jumping 2 decades,in technology and capability. 

the mark 2 is a medium weight fighter to replace mig29 and mieage2000 I suggest you watch aero India and check out the specs.
mark 2 will equal to gripen ng and block 70 f16 .

but it will take decade from hear .
where as block 70 could be here in 36 months 

but no issue we have Rafale and will order more 

the plan make a sense albeit delayed by a 5 to 10 years


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## The Maverick

"Yasser76, post: 12911181, member: 183830"]
Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed






Defense World


View News at Defense World




www.defenseworld.net






deep down you know very well.the best way to military superiority long term.is via financial power is GDP and forex and or weapons indengious capability. 

we smash pakistan financially you can't touch us by 10 to 1 gdp or 5 to 1 defense budget . 

our indengious capability is much larger more wide ranging then yours. be it destroyers subs helicopters awacs mbrl artillery we do it all. yes production can e slow but we have only started,getting serious last decade or so..

we will keep throwing money at it because we,can do. 

tejas is on paper ahead of your block 1 and 2 chinease fighter.
better flybewire and airframe 
better engines,
hmd wider range of weapons integration ie Indian israeli and French and Russian. 
it's massive upgrade on legacy bison 
we Indians are delighted and even.more so because Rafale and mki and mirage20000 will be working along side it..

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> "Yasser76, post: 12911181, member: 183830"]
> Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deep down you know very well.the best way to military superiority long term.is via financial power is GDP and forex and or weapons indengious capability.
> 
> we smash pakistan financially you can't touch us by 10 to 1 gdp or 5 to 1 defense budget .
> 
> our indengious capability is much larger more wide ranging then yours. be it destroyers subs helicopters awacs mbrl artillery we do it all. yes production can e slow but we have only started,getting serious last decade or so..
> 
> we will keep throwing money at it because we,can do.
> 
> tejas is on paper ahead of your block 1 and 2 chinease fighter.
> better flybewire and airframe
> better engines,
> hmd wider range of weapons integration ie Indian israeli and French and Russian.
> it's massive upgrade on legacy bison
> we Indians are delighted and even.more so because Rafale and mki and mirage20000 will be working along side it..



Please, enough of the BS. If just money could buy military power than Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Canada would be on par with say UK, which they are certainly not. It takes more than money. India still had much bigger economy than Pak on Feb 27th. 

As you say Tejas is "on paper" ahead of Block 1 and Block 2. Guess what, AZM "on paper" is better then anything in IAF at the moment. It's of little relevance....


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## Trango Towers

White and Green with M/S said:


> Can you produce your Tejas without any foreign help, (From Israel/France/USA) please tell us???


Israel France and USA are part of India so its indeginous


Yasser76 said:


> Please, enough of the BS. If just money could buy military power than Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Canada would be on par with say UK, which they are certainly not. It takes more than money. India still had much bigger economy than Pak on Feb 27th.
> 
> As you say Tejas is "on paper" ahead of Block 1 and Block 2. Guess what, AZM "on paper" is better then anything in IAF at the moment. It's of little relevance....


Tejas on paper is a star fighter out of star wars flown by the BORG out to assimilate us all


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Please, enough of the BS. If just money could buy military power than Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Canada would be on par with say UK, which they are certainly not. It takes more than money. India still had much bigger economy than Pak on Feb 27th.
> 
> As you say Tejas is "on paper" ahead of Block 1 and Block 2. Guess what, AZM "on paper" is better then anything in IAF at the moment. It's of little relevance....




Azm 
do.you have evidence this project exists 
I mean funding 
labs wind tunnels technology 
you have yet to.build s helicopter
and you throw this up.from thin air 
do you have resources to.build a modern plane 
AZM for me is s chinease fc31 for pak.to be designed and built in China to pak.specs on 20.years time . today it's pure thought desire 
tejas,has infrastructure money people project etc

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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Even awecs will have it tough to go beyond 400-450km due to
> 
> 50m still very exepensive for fighter which received several waivers
> Also every fighter has those cost built in
> You dont get fighter without an engine
> HAL is taking a too big cut here
> 
> IAF should have skipped mk1a and only went for mk2 (as they originally planned)
> Or liscene produce gripen NG



No it's not. $50 million for a fighter with one of the most reliable engines, AESA radar, EW suite, fully composite airframe, HMDS, full digital FBW, carefree handling, etc. is not much. Waivers are immaterial when it is being built to the customer's spec. F-35 has over 700 "issues" that have not yet been resolved. But only an idiot would say it's not a good fighter. 

You do get a fighter without an engine, when the engine is manufactured by another supplier. It happens with all major aviation OEMs. That's how contracts are negotiated. HAL doesn't build the GE F-404-IN-20 engine. GE does. HAL will have to source it from them at rates they negotiate with GE for. 

HAL also has nearly 550 suppliers, both private and public sector, who are part of the Tejas supply chain. It has to negotiate with ALL of them for the prices they are willing to supply the parts at. HAL may or may not add a small percentage on top of that. But given that BOTH, HAL and IAF are basically directly under the Govt. of India, it doesn't matter too much. Anyway, we know this- HAL was asked to cap it's profit lower, after the initial round of negotiations where the IAF felt the prices were too high.

The Ministry of Defence is the go-between for IAF and HAL. So they're FULLY aware of what the HAL profit margins are and won't allow it to be high. 

Tejas Mk2 requires development time..Mk1A was supposed to be lower hanging fruit. Basically AESA, podded EW Suite, maintenance improvements, new MC, new SMFDs, some other avionics and that was pretty much it. New weapons would be integrated with the Mk1 anyway with software updates. Since the Mk1 was already in production, this was considered the best way to quickly produce and deliver 4 squadrons of the same airframe/engine combination. It would use the same assembly lines already in place for the Mk1. But unfortunately, even despite being a domestic program, it's RFP and contract negotiations dragged on longer than expected. 

Anyway, all that is water under the bridge. It's now confirmed, the IAF is eagerly looking forward to it and very importantly, it brings in a LOT of money into the domestic aerospace industry and supply chain. It's the big kick start required so that the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA have a large pool of private suppliers from within India who will be involved. 

Buying an imported design and license manufacturing it, like the Gripen E, is only going to help build assembly skills, which India already possesses. What we need are genuine Tier 1 and 2 suppliers who will scale up and build India's aerospace industry. Plus, a LOT of the money goes to Saab or whichever foreign OEM there is. This is the much needed stimulus for the aerospace sector.


The Maverick said:


> Azm
> do.you have evidence this project exists
> I mean funding
> labs wind tunnels technology
> you have yet to.build s helicopter
> and you throw this up.from thin air
> do you have resources to.build a modern plane
> AZM for me is s chinease fc31 for pak.to be designed and built in China to pak.specs on 20.years time . today it's pure thought desire
> tejas,has infrastructure money people project etc



They haven't designed an indigenous fighter ever. AZM cannot change that. The gulf between Pakistan's aerospace industry and those of nations designing and producing 5th gen fighters is simply too big. 2-3 decades big. Plus, the economy is in the doldrums so it's not like they can afford a billion $ development program, which is what ANY 5th gen fighter development program costs.

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## Lord Of Gondor

The Father of the Tejas programme: Padma Shree, Dr. Kota Harinarayana on the recent development




The *KH *XYZ on each Tejas LSP/TD/LCA-N TD stands for his name.
Great soul.

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> Azm
> do.you have evidence this project exists
> I mean funding
> labs wind tunnels technology
> you have yet to.build s helicopter
> and you throw this up.from thin air
> do you have resources to.build a modern plane
> AZM for me is s chinease fc31 for pak.to be designed and built in China to pak.specs on 20.years time . today it's pure thought desire
> tejas,has infrastructure money people project etc



Talking about Tejas MK1A and it's abilities when it has not flown is the same as PAF talking about AZMs abilities. Difference is we do not celebrate every tiny development as a world beating acheivement, much of PAF's work is done quietly. Unlike HAL.IAF


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Talking about Tejas MK1A and it's abilities when it has not flown is the same as PAF talking about AZMs abilities. Difference is we do not celebrate every tiny development as a world beating acheivement, much of PAF's work is done quietly. Unlike HAL.IAF




tejas is Massive project in man power infrastructure and investments in dollars 

probably bigger than your entire forex reserve when I count the cost of tejas mark 1 and 1a,and 2

I won't even talk a bout Amca 

sit back and enjoy aero India in February you will be shocked at how much India is growing in aerospace


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## Gilljutt

Which parts of the jf17 does Pakistan make?

India claims to make 50 percent of the Tejas. What's the Pakistani percentage?


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> tejas is Massive project in man power infrastructure and investments in dollars
> 
> probably bigger than your entire forex reserve when I count the cost of tejas mark 1 and 1a,and 2
> 
> I won't even talk a bout Amca
> 
> sit back and enjoy aero India in February you will be shocked at how much India is growing in aerospace



So much talk, so little actual flying


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> "Yasser76, post: 12911181, member: 183830"]
> Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deep down you know very well.the best way to military superiority long term.is via financial power is GDP and forex and or weapons indengious capability.
> 
> we smash pakistan financially you can't touch us by 10 to 1 gdp or 5 to 1 defense budget .
> 
> our indengious capability is much larger more wide ranging then yours. be it destroyers subs helicopters awacs mbrl artillery we do it all. yes production can e slow but we have only started,getting serious last decade or so..
> 
> we will keep throwing money at it because we,can do.
> 
> tejas is on paper ahead of your block 1 and 2 chinease fighter.
> better flybewire and airframe
> better engines,
> hmd wider range of weapons integration ie Indian israeli and French and Russian.
> it's massive upgrade on legacy bison
> we Indians are delighted and even.more so because Rafale and mki and mirage20000 will be working along side it..


No
Overweight, underpowered with very low angle of attack to name a few...just using composite vs al-titanium frame or four axis vs 2 axis FBW doesnt make it superior just more COSTLY which it has won hands down(4 times more expnsive then block1 17 million tag)
Mk1 is no match for jf17 b1/2

At 60+m a piece it is anything but a good replacement for mig21


True tejas should have been mk2

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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> No
> Overweight, underpowered with very low angle of attack to name a few...just using composite vs al-titanium frame or four axis vs 2 axis FBW doesnt make it superior just more COSTLY which it has won hands down(4 times more expnsive then block1 17 million tag)
> Mk1 is no match for jf17 b1/2
> 
> At 60+m a piece it is anything but a good replacement for mig21
> 
> 
> True tejas should have been mk2




explain how thunder is superior 
older yes 
older tech yes,.. ie like no.hmd or inferior flight control
superior I can't see it sorry


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> explain how thunder is superior
> older yes
> older tech yes,.. ie like no.hmd or inferior flight control
> superior I can't see it sorry


For example...
Superior in angle of attack
Thrust to weight ratio
Superior in operational capacity and weapon integration

HMD usefulness is within visual range combat..thunder doesnt need it as these are days of BVR never the less it will be available soon much before tejas is inducted..

Thunder is unstable in 1 acess..it doesnt need FBW in all acess..but the block 3 has it.

By time tejas comes into play the oldest thundrs will be 20 yrs old.

Comparing tejas to jf17b1/2 is moot point since jf17b3 is already IN PRODUCTION WHILE TEJAS MK1A hasnt been signed yet


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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> For example...
> Superior in angle of attack
> Thrust to weight ratio
> Superior in operational capacity and weapon integration
> 
> HMD usefulness is within visual range combat..thunder doesnt need it as these are days of BVR never the less it will be available soon much before tejas is inducted..
> 
> Thunder is unstable in 1 acess..it doesnt need FBW in all acess..but the block 3 has it.
> 
> By time tejas comes into play the oldest thundrs will be 20 yrs old.
> 
> Comparing tejas to jf17b1/2 is moot point since jf17b3 is already IN PRODUCTION WHILE TEJAS MK1A hasnt been signed yet




Wrong both AOA atre 26 /28 degrees
Both have same TWR ie 0.95
Superior integration = No Tejas will cary Israeli Indian Russian or European weapons ie
BVR derby ER or Astra
WVR r73 asraam or Python 5
Spi
Thunders only use chinease weapons period

Your claims of superority are not factually corr
what you say about thunders smokey labout high maintenance engines fromm


ziaulislam said:


> For example...
> Superior in angle of attack
> Thrust to weight ratio
> Superior in operational capacity and weapon integration
> 
> HMD usefulness is within visual range combat..thunder doesnt need it as these are days of BVR never the less it will be available soon much before tejas is inducted..
> 
> Thunder is unstable in 1 acess..it doesnt need FBW in all acess..but the block 3 has it.
> 
> By time tejas comes into play the oldest thundrs will be 20 yrs old.
> 
> Comparing tejas to jf17b1/2 is moot point since jf17b3 is already IN PRODUCTION WHILE TEJAS MK1A hasnt been signed yet




Wrong both AOA atre 26 /28 degrees
Both have same TWR ie 0.95
Superior integration = No Tejas will cary Israeli Indian Russian or European weapons ie
BVR derby ER or Astra
WVR r73 asraam or Python 5
Spi
Thunders only use chinease weapons period

Your claims of superority are not factually correct
what you say about thunders smokey high maintenance engines from russia or the fatigue cracks that are appearimg in your older airframes because you did not use composites . Which you pla to now use in blovck 3 as you can see deficency already in block 1 & 2.

Rumours of availablity at 60% is worrying surely .

BUT you guys went speed and low cost AND you will pay the price


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Wrong both AOA atre 26 /28 degrees
> Both have same TWR ie 0.95
> Superior integration = No Tejas will cary Israeli Indian Russian or European weapons ie
> BVR derby ER or Astra
> WVR r73 asraam or Python 5
> Spi
> Thunders only use chinease weapons period
> 
> Your claims of superority are not factually corr
> what you say about thunders smokey labout high maintenance engines fromm
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong both AOA atre 26 /28 degrees
> Both have same TWR ie 0.95
> Superior integration = No Tejas will cary Israeli Indian Russian or European weapons ie
> BVR derby ER or Astra
> WVR r73 asraam or Python 5
> Spi
> Thunders only use chinease weapons period
> 
> Your claims of superority are not factually correct
> what you say about thunders smokey high maintenance engines from russia or the fatigue cracks that are appearimg in your older airframes because you did not use composites . Which you pla to now use in blovck 3 as you can see deficency already in block 1 & 2.
> 
> Rumours of availablity at 60% is worrying surely .
> 
> BUT you guys went speed and low cost AND you will pay the price


Rd33 is most reliable engine in russian inventory
Just look at your migs
Every idiot knows that al titanium is less prone to stress fatigue especially in new aircraft

Yes AESA will probably be the only plus on mk1a
Pl15 outranges and outguns everything that LCA can carry


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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> Rd33 is most reliable engine in russian inventory
> Just look at your migs
> Every idiot knows that al titanium is less prone to stress fatigue especially in new aircraft
> 
> Yes AESA will probably be the only plus on mk1a
> Pl15 outranges and outguns everything that LCA can carry



I don't buy this your thunder looks a generation behind Rafale type fighters
China won't touch it that tells everything


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> No
> Overweight, underpowered with very low angle of attack to name a few...just using composite vs al-titanium frame or four axis vs 2 axis FBW doesnt make it superior just more COSTLY which it has won hands down(4 times more expnsive then block1 17 million tag)
> Mk1 is no match for jf17 b1/2
> 
> At 60+m a piece it is anything but a good replacement for mig21
> 
> 
> True tejas should have been mk2



Ok. What's the max angle of attack of the JF-17? And Gripen? I'll tell you. It's 26 deg. Same as the max AoA for Tejas.

What's the empty weight of the JF-17 and Gripen? 6500 kgs approximately for both. Same as the Tejas.

What's the engine max thrust for the JF-17, Gripen and Tejas? All in the ~85 kN ballpark.

So please, before writing stuff, do some research.

JF-17 doesn't use titanium except in the hottest sections. Titanium is so damn expensive that if it was used liberally on the JF-17, it would cost double for the airframe. Don't go around saying things that expose your level of knowledge.

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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> For example...
> Superior in angle of attack
> Thrust to weight ratio
> Superior in operational capacity and weapon integration



Nope.

Not superior in the angle of attack. They're the SAME. 

In fact, with the digital FCS and complete carefree handling, a Tejas pilot is safer from ever departing controlled flight. Only the most advanced 4th gen fighters have this feature.

As for T/W ratio, they're the same as well. Nearly similar empty weight and nearly similar max thrust. 

Weapon integration- 

Tejas - Derby BVRAAM, R-73E, Israeli LGBs, dumb bombs. Astra Mk1 integration on-going, NG-ARM, SAAW to be integrated and the Brahmos NG when it's ready.

I can't see how the JF-17 is ahead except for the anti-shipping missile capability it possesses. 



> HMD usefulness is within visual range combat..thunder doesnt need it as these are days of BVR never the less it will be available soon much before tejas is inducted..
> 
> Thunder is unstable in 1 acess..it doesnt need FBW in all acess..but the block 3 has it.
> 
> By time tejas comes into play the oldest thundrs will be 20 yrs old.
> 
> Comparing tejas to jf17b1/2 is moot point since jf17b3 is already IN PRODUCTION WHILE TEJAS MK1A hasnt been signed yet



Tejas Mk1 is already inducted into squadron service and all squadron pilots have the Elbit DASH HMDS with R-73E as of now. With Tejas Mk1A, they'll get the ASRAAM WVRAAM missile, which is acknowledged as a very capable WVRAAM with near BVR ranges. 

Right now the IAF uses Derby BVRAAM but Astra Mk1 integration is in process for the Tejas Mk1 fleet and for the Mk1A, we'll get the Astra Mk2 and in a few years, SFDR, which is the Indian equivalent of the Meteor BVRAAM. Astra Mk2 tests are to be started this year. Max range for the dual pulse Astra Mk2 is ~150 km. SFDR will have significantly higher range, thanks to it being a Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet missile.

The Tejas Mk1 itself is already considered to be one of the best air to ground strike fighter in IAF inventory, from IAF exercises where it beat Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000s. Best range scores, most accurate bombing. Now with the AESA radar, this will only improve! Litening LDP has been integrated with the Tejas Mk1 for nearly a decade now. Full mature system that gives the pilot one of the best air to ground targeting devices.

There is no proof that the JF-17 Blk 3 has full FBW since China hasn't revealed it's specifications as yet. All of it is just fanboy speculation as of now.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Nope.
> 
> Not superior in the angle of attack. In fact, with the digital FCS and complete carefree handling, a Tejas pilot is safer from ever departing controlled flight. Only the most advanced 4th gen fighters have this feature.
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas is already inducted and all squadron pilots have the Elbit DASH HMDS with R-73E as of now. With Tejas Mk1A, they'll get the ASRAAM WVRAAM missile. Right now the IAF uses Derby BVRAAM but Astra Mk1 integration is in process for the Tejas Mk1 fleet and for the Mk1A, we'll get the Astra Mk2 and in a few years, SFDR, which is the Indian equivalent of the Meteor BVRAAM. Astra Mk2 tests are to be started this year. Max range for the dual pulse Astra Mk2 is ~150 km. SFDR will have significantly higher range, thanks to it being a Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet missile.
> 
> The Tejas Mk1 itself is already considered to be one of the best air to ground strike fighter in IAF inventory, from IAF exercises where it beat Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000s. Best range scores, most accurate bombing. Now with the AESA radar, this will only improve! Litening LDP has been integrated with the Tejas Mk1 for nearly a decade now. Full mature system that gives the pilot one of the best air to ground targeting devices.
> 
> There is no proof that the JF-17 Blk 3 has full FBW since China hasn't revealed it's specifications as yet. All of it is just fanboy speculation as of now.




You ask others to read up on facts but here you are, actually lying about capability of MK1. 

It has several issues with BVR and PGMs. It is nowhere near considered the best strike aircraft in IAF (You used 40 year old Mirages on Feb 26th).

It has 23 waivers on performance just to be accepted into IAF.

In it's current configuration it's little more than a tech demonstrator, both units being based safely away from Pak and Chinese borders.

Maybe take it easy on the whiskies hey?
"He added that the JF-17B would be fitted with a missionized rear cockpit for combat training and operations, a three-axis fly-by-wire kit, and a fifth-generation advanced short-range air-to-air missile. "









JF-17 Thunder – Lightning Strikes Twice


The JF-17 is playing a significant role in Pakistan's air defense.




www.ainonline.com


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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> Nope.
> 
> Not superior in the angle of attack. They're the SAME.
> 
> In fact, with the digital FCS and complete carefree handling, a Tejas pilot is safer from ever departing controlled flight. Only the most advanced 4th gen fighters have this feature.
> 
> As for T/W ratio, they're the same as well. Nearly similar empty weight and nearly similar max thrust.
> 
> Weapon integration-
> 
> Tejas - Derby BVRAAM, R-73E, Israeli LGBs, dumb bombs. Astra Mk1 integration on-going, NG-ARM, SAAW to be integrated and the Brahmos NG when it's ready.
> 
> I can't see how the JF-17 is ahead except for the anti-shipping missile capability it possesses.
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Mk1 is already inducted into squadron service and all squadron pilots have the Elbit DASH HMDS with R-73E as of now. With Tejas Mk1A, they'll get the ASRAAM WVRAAM missile, which is acknowledged as a very capable WVRAAM with near BVR ranges.
> 
> Right now the IAF uses Derby BVRAAM but Astra Mk1 integration is in process for the Tejas Mk1 fleet and for the Mk1A, we'll get the Astra Mk2 and in a few years, SFDR, which is the Indian equivalent of the Meteor BVRAAM. Astra Mk2 tests are to be started this year. Max range for the dual pulse Astra Mk2 is ~150 km. SFDR will have significantly higher range, thanks to it being a Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet missile.
> 
> The Tejas Mk1 itself is already considered to be one of the best air to ground strike fighter in IAF inventory, from IAF exercises where it beat Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000s. Best range scores, most accurate bombing. Now with the AESA radar, this will only improve! Litening LDP has been integrated with the Tejas Mk1 for nearly a decade now. Full mature system that gives the pilot one of the best air to ground targeting devices.
> 
> There is no proof that the JF-17 Blk 3 has full FBW since China hasn't revealed it's specifications as yet. All of it is just fanboy speculation as of now.




This is thorough answer


Yasser76 said:


> You ask others to read up on facts but here you are, actually lying about capability of MK1.
> 
> It has several issues with BVR and PGMs. It is nowhere near considered the best strike aircraft in IAF (You used 40 year old Mirages on Feb 26th).
> 
> It has 23 waivers on performance just to be accepted into IAF.
> 
> In it's current configuration it's little more than a tech demonstrator, both units being based safely away from Pak and Chinese borders.
> 
> Maybe take it easy on the whiskies hey?
> "He added that the JF-17B would be fitted with a missionized rear cockpit for combat training and operations, a three-axis fly-by-wire kit, and a fifth-generation advanced short-range air-to-air missile. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 Thunder – Lightning Strikes Twice
> 
> 
> The JF-17 is playing a significant role in Pakistan's air defense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com




February 19 was 2 years ago BUDDY .......... no45 SQDS was just being raised and Tejas was not integrated with netra AWACS or other platforms ...... We had barely 10 planes pilots still learn ing the ropes.

Secondly if the mirage2000 was better ............ THEN IAF when not spend $6 billion ordering Tejas. 

Counter argument = If your thunder HOW COME only F16 fired BVRS that FEB 2019 why no SD10 shots 

You can spin an argument any way 

IF your Thunder is so wonderful why you buying junk over used battered F16 block 15 from the ,mighty jordanian air force.

Tejas is here AS the above posts shows it beats Thunder block 1 and 2 in every paremter .

More modern efficient engines from USA 
brilliant flight control and composite airframe like all modern 4th gen fighters 
Dash 5 HMD 
western and indian weapons variety 

We have discussed this to death 

You get what you pay for their is reason thunders costs 18 million each and mark 1 TEJAS IS 30 MILLION each .

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> This is thorough answer
> 
> 
> 
> February 19 was 2 years ago BUDDY .......... no45 SQDS was just being raised and Tejas was not integrated with netra AWACS or other platforms ...... We had barely 10 planes pilots still learn ing the ropes.
> 
> Secondly if the mirage2000 was better ............ THEN IAF when not spend $6 billion ordering Tejas.
> 
> Counter argument = If your thunder HOW COME only F16 fired BVRS that FEB 2019 why no SD10 shots
> 
> You can spin an argument any way
> 
> IF your Thunder is so wonderful why you buying junk over used battered F16 block 15 from the ,mighty jordanian air force.
> 
> Tejas is here AS the above posts shows it beats Thunder block 1 and 2 in every paremter .
> 
> More modern efficient engines from USA
> brilliant flight control and composite airframe like all modern 4th gen fighters
> Dash 5 HMD
> western and indian weapons variety
> 
> We have discussed this to death
> 
> You get what you pay for their is reason thunders costs 18 million each and mark 1 TEJAS IS 30 MILLION each .



Again, all is "going to happen".......


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## Surya 1

The Maverick said:


> I am.answering the specific questions.
> tejas mark 1 is in service with no 45 and no18 sqds 20 planes,and 2 planes respectively.
> yes the mark1 is superior to thunder block 1 and 2 and f7 and mirage in paf.
> If maybe inferior to your block 52 thank God you have 18 planes,
> 55 your mlu f16 mat be superior in terms of amraams and twr but tejas has lower rcs and better hmd



Tejas Mk1A will be superior to F16 BLK 52 in most of the areas except weight carrying and range. It will have better radar, better EW, better ergonomic, better sensor fusion, better T/W ratio and better weapons. It can easily defeat F16 BLK 52 in close combat and bvr engagement.

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## Yasser76

Surya 1 said:


> Tejas Mk1A will be superior to F16 BLK 52 in most of the areas except weight carrying and range. It will have better radar, better EW, better organismic, better sensor fusion, better T/W ratio and better weapons. It can easily defeat F16 BLK 52 in close combat and bvr engagement.



How do you know this when it has not even flown yet?


Yasser76 said:


> How do you know this when it has not even flown yet?



"better organismic ", Your plane will have a great sex life?

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## Deino

A great read ...



https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent/

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## Yasser76

Deino said:


> A great read ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent/



Beat me to it! Yes, interesting by an Indian who actually knows something about the Tejas.

Bottom line, as mentioned, is that by 2030 IAF will still be inducting LCAs, whilst China will have massive amounts of 5th Gen, and even Pakistan would be kick starting AZM production.

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## Mrc

LCA is yet to achieve final operation clearance FOC after 37 years and we are talking about being better than F22 and flying saucers


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## Deino

Yasser76 said:


> Beat me to it! Yes, interesting by an Indian who actually knows something about the Tejas.
> 
> Bottom line, as mentioned, is that by 2030 IAF will still be inducting LCAs, whilst China will have massive amounts of 5th Gen, and even Pakistan would be kick starting AZM production.




Indeed and a very good friend! It was one of the most interesting weekends, when I met Angad at Telford in 2018 and was able to discuss with him IAF and PLAAF matters in depth.

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## Surya 1

Yasser76 said:


> How do you know this when it has not even flown yet?



In the same way you guys knew about JF 17 BLK 3 capability before it came.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Deino said:


> A great read ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent/





> *Death by taxes*
> 
> One of the discrepancies immediately highlighted after the MoD’s announcement was the approximately INR 8,600 crore (US$ 1.17 billion) difference between what the CCS cleared and the figure approved by the DAC last year. The headline price immediately led to a chorus of disbelief about what appeared to be an average cost of INR 548 crore (US$ 75 million) per aircraft, resulting in unwarranted comparisons with more capable aircraft such as the Su-30MKI. Lack of transparency in defence spending only damages institutional credibility, in addition to hurting the sales prospects of the LCA beyond its domestic customer.
> 
> 
> What should have been made clear up front was that the contract also includes a large fixed cost component, including development expenditures as well as a Performance Based Logistics (PBL) arrangement. The unit price of the LCA Mk.1A under the present deal is some INR 384 crore (US$ 52.5 million). The escalation from the March 2020 figure is accounted for mainly by variations in foreign currency exchange rates, *as well as 18 percent in taxes*.


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## Raj-Hindustani

Yasser76 said:


> Talking about Tejas MK1A and it's abilities when it has not flown is the same as PAF talking about AZMs abilities. Difference is we do not celebrate every tiny development as a world beating acheivement, much of PAF's work is done quietly. Unlike HAL.IAF



Pakistan is not having capibility to make such 5 gen fighter. Pak even has not designed and developed a trainer aircraft so forget about 4th or 5th gen fighter.

J31 will be only going to manufacture by Pak and called indegious made just like al khalid tank (Chinese type 90), super mushshak (upgraded - Saab Safari) etc...

I would be agree that if even pak has designed, tested and developed any aircraft.

5th gen Azm will gonna surely a Chinese made J31 or lighter version of J20 with Pakistani's name..


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## Yasser76

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Pakistan is not having capibility to make such 5 gen fighter. Pak even has not designed and developed a trainer aircraft so forget about 4th or 5th gen fighter.
> 
> J31 will be only going to manufacture by Pak and called indegious made just like al khalid tank (Chinese type 90), super mushshak (upgraded - Saab Safari) etc...
> 
> I would be agree that if even pak has designed, tested and developed any aircraft.
> 
> 5th gen Azm will gonna surely a Chinese made J31 or lighter version of J20 with Pakistani's name..




Irrespective of how much of AZM will be indeginous (and most likely Pakistan will have much help from China and/or Turkey), that simply does not remove that fact that if PAC and HAL timelines are accurate, India will be inducting LCAs whilst Pakistan will be inducting stealth fighters.......


Surya 1 said:


> In the same way you guys knew about JF 17 BLK 3 capability before it came.



Blk III is flying my friend, major difference. MK1a is still only on paper.....


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## The Maverick

you don't have single operational block 3 in pak service.... not one 

until then it's same status as tejas mark 1a

you have block 1 and 2 in 7 sqds at best .
and these are at best comparable to tejas,mark one and we have 20 plus in service.in 2 sqds. 

in some aspects tejas,maybe superior


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> you don't have single operational block 3 in pak service.... not one
> 
> until then it's same status as tejas mark 1a
> 
> you have block 1 and 2 in 7 sqds at best .
> and these are at best comparable to tejas,mark one and we have 20 plus in service.in 2 sqds.
> 
> in some aspects tejas,maybe superior




Plane flying is same status as plane that has not been built yet? Are you sure? Is this your actual argument? Do you live in an alternative reality?


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## Surya 1

Yasser76 said:


> Bottom line, as mentioned, is that by 2030 IAF will still be inducting LCAs, whilst China will have massive amounts of 5th Gen, and even Pakistan would be kick starting AZM production.



We are not bothered about Chinese fifth or sixth generation plane. We know them very well. Our MKI traced them from 300 km away.


Yasser76 said:


> How do you know this when it has not even flown yet?
> 
> 
> "better organismic ", Your plane will have a great sex life?



Ergonomic. Bloody auto correct function some time creates big problem.

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## Yasser76

Surya 1 said:


> We are not bothered about Chinese fifth or sixth generation plane. We know them very well. Our MKI traced them from 300 km away.
> 
> 
> Ergonomic. Bloody auto correct function some time creates big problem.



Of course, MKI traced them. I will reply properly to you later when you are back to reality


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## MirageBlue

Cost breakdown of the 83 Tejas Mk1A deal.

Unit price of each Tejas Mk1A is $43 million

The unit price per Mk1A is Rs 315 crores, which is $43 million. -A large part of the contract, almost 20% is taxes. Which means it goes back straight into the Govt's pocket. From one pocket to another.

-ADA consultancy and development cost Rs 800 crores (approx $110 million).
-Spares cost Rs 8000 crores (approx $1.1 billion).
-Training infrastructure set up cost $110 million

Also clarified that there will be 2 bases that will the home bases for the 4 Tejas Mk1A squadrons. Infrastructure development for training pilots and technicians at these 2 bases for the Tejas Mk1A is also included in the deal cost.

GE Aviation asked for Rs 12,000 crores (approx $1.8 billion) for allowing ToT and manufacturing of F-404-IN20 engines in India. That was cut out of the deal which dropped the price.






First look at what is an official render of the IN's Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) design. This is still the preliminary design and not yet frozen.











Close coupled canards, what appears to be stealth shaping with a nose chine and angled intakes like the Rafale. Also, higher aspect ratio wings than the Tejas Mk2, thanks to the naval requirement for landing at very low speeds.

Clearly derived from the Tejas Mk2, but with many changes that were inherited from the LCA Navy Mk2 design. But no stabilators.

At 24.5 tonnes MTOW, it's significantly larger than the Tejas Mk2 as well, apart from being twin engined versus the Tejas Mk2 that is single engined.

HAL wants an Air Force variant named ORCA to be derived out of this TEDBF in the 2030s. Would be in the Rafale class.

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## VkdIndian

There were lot of LCA watchers who had started a party claiming that LCA is too costly after the order for 83 LCAs. HAL is a Government company being given an order by the government. How would it be able to fleece the government? This was not understood by quite a lot of people.

This breakdown of cost makes things very clear. Tax part in the cost may not be understood by some people. But, that’s how businesses and such deals work in better controlled markets. The unit cost as displayed places it neck to neck with similar aircraft. With a better engine and some other systems, it would prove to be a worthy player in the game.


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## ziaulislam

Two prebatch built and flying google it. Yoy do have acess to google?
Rest 48 are in full production ..goal is to build 12 for PAF each yr and around 4-8 for exports
You will see induction this year

Mk1a wont be inducted before 2023-24 since backlog of mk1 orders is first to be completed 



The Maverick said:


> you don't have single operational block 3 in pak service.... not one
> 
> until then it's same status as tejas mark 1a
> 
> you have block 1 and 2 in 7 sqds at best .
> and these are at best comparable to tejas,mark one and we have 20 plus in service.in 2 sqds.
> 
> in some aspects tejas,maybe superior





Surya 1 said:


> We are not bothered about Chinese fifth or sixth generation plane. We know them very well. Our MKI traced them from 300 km away.
> 
> 
> Ergonomic. Bloody auto correct function some time creates big problem.


They will trace f35 in peace time too. Google it u will know why

At war " malfunctions" happen

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## The Maverick

can't compare your thunder to tejas 

our fighter is home grown indengious fighter we,are have built massive infrastructure worth billions to support tejas 
new spin off fighters radars,weapons in India over next 20 years 

this cannot be compared to a kit assembly job from.china were all.your money goes to China 

our billions stay in India and employ Indians 
your emply chinease and tech stays in China 

just like our jaguar assembly programme and su30mki programme 

that's why we are proud of tejas

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## The Maverick

we,can plug add change improve tejas any aspect in India 
we will add the mark 2 and Amca from.tejas technology base.
our scientists engineers will.learn.improve performance 
100 percent confident just look.at our isro space capability or our navy technology 

tejas is huge Massive 

thunder totally dependant on chinease good will.

and capability barely tejas level.at best

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> can't compare your thunder to tejas
> 
> our fighter is home grown indengious fighter we,are have built massive infrastructure worth billions to support tejas
> new spin off fighters radars,weapons in India over next 20 years
> 
> this cannot be compared to a kit assembly job from.china were all.your money goes to China
> 
> our billions stay in India and employ Indians
> your emply chinease and tech stays in China
> 
> just like our jaguar assembly programme and su30mki programme
> 
> that's why we are proud of tejas



Your own frrickin graphs show how much foreign content their is in Tejas, your own defence minister stated just 50%. Sit down.


The Maverick said:


> we,can plug add change improve tejas any aspect in India
> we will add the mark 2 and Amca from.tejas technology base.
> our scientists engineers will.learn.improve performance
> 100 percent confident just look.at our isro space capability or our navy technology
> 
> tejas is huge Massive
> 
> thunder totally dependant on chinease good will.
> 
> and capability barely tejas level.at best



Problem for you is it is much better for an air force to have a "chinese depdendent" fighter actually flying than a "indigenous" fighter on the drawing board for years


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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


>




I know the Chinese are always accused of copying but isn't this an exact Rafale-clone?

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> I know the Chinese are always accused of copying but isn't this an exact Rafale-clone?
> 
> View attachment 707967


NO, NEIN. Its indi-genous.

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## VkdIndian

Compare LCA MK2, Rafale and Gripen, side by side to see what is copy of what. Stand alone picture of anyone of them might be called a clone of each other. But not when compared side by side.


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## ziaulislam

VkdIndian said:


> Compare LCA MK2, Rafale and Gripen, side by side to see what is copy of what. Stand alone picture of anyone of them might be called a clone of each other. But not when compared side by side.
> View attachment 707972


All three are different aircrafts
However its unfair to call lca mk2 as tejas

Its a completely different aircraft from the grounds up

Unless HAL intends to manfactur it side by side it wont be manufactured before 2028-2030

Time line of induction will be at minimum 6-7 yrs from first prototype


Deino said:


> I know the Chinese are always accused of copying but isn't this an exact Rafale-clone?
> 
> View attachment 707967


This will be third aircraft HAL takes on side by side with tejas, mk2

It will be a great feat if they achieve it

Though i would have preferred they just focus on AMCA

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## VkdIndian

ziaulislam said:


> It will be a great feat if they achieve it


Yes I agree. LCA MK II is quite different but has a Tejas Pedigree. Lot of stuff that has been tried and tested on Tejas, is likely to go into LCA MK II. Tejas had a lot of technologies tried upon for the first time. They have matured and Tejas also proved to be a test bed for quite a few of them. Hence, learning curve is likely to be a little less steep for LCA MK II.

As far as LCA MK II and AMCA are considered, they are of different class and capability. There may not be enough capability to jump to AMCA right now. LCA is more achievable target with the current capabilities already existing in India. LCA MK II might be one step closer in AMCAs direction..


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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> All three are different aircrafts
> However its unfair to call lca mk2 as tejas
> 
> Its a completely different aircraft from the grounds up
> 
> Unless HAL intends to manfactur it side by side it wont be manufactured before 2028-2030
> 
> Time line of induction will be at minimum 6-7 yrs from first prototype
> 
> This will be third aircraft HAL takes on side by side with tejas, mk2
> 
> It will be a great feat if they achieve it
> 
> Though i would have preferred they just focus on AMCA



When your enemy is making a mistake never interrupt them!  
10 Years from now India will be the only country making 4th Gen planes and claim they are world beating.


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## VkdIndian

Is there any nation in the world that takes inputs from public forums to develop their fighters?
I am sure that some of the finest or even modest aircraft across the world were developed without the inputs from any public forums.
I am not an insider who knows how Indian government does the business but quite sure that Indian fighter program wouldn’t be taking inputs from this or any other forum. 😀

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> I know the Chinese are always accused of copying but isn't this an exact Rafale-clone?
> 
> View attachment 707967



I'll be frank enough and tell you this- the Indian Navy and the IAF both hold the Rafale in very high regard. If you wanna call it a Rafale clone, please go ahead, it doesn't bother me one bit. India isn't into copying and reverse engineering, that much is a fact. Yes, design inspirations can be taken from existing solutions. Such as the LERX on the JF-17 that is an exact copy of the one on the Super Hornet.

There was an interview with a senior IN aviator many years ago where he talked about how the IN would want a Rafale like fighter but given the technology at India's disposal back then, it couldn't be attempted and we had to stick to the single engine LCA Navy. Things have moved forward quite a bit since then and the IN as well as ADA agree that this is now feasible, given the LCA Navy's carrier compatibility trials success.

Take a Tejas Mk2, increase the aspect ratio of the wings and reduce the wing sweep (for lower landing speed), droop the nose (as was done with LCA Navy), add internal fuel tanks and add a second engine and you there you have the TEDBF. That's how it looks the way it does, not by copying a Rafale. But you are free to draw your own conclusions. 

If it superficially resembles the Rafale, so be it. The Rafale is a gorgeous fighter and a template for how a great naval fighter design can be a great air force fighter as well. If ADA designers go with a design that can be adapted into a good IAF fighter as well, then we have the possibility of larger production run for the TEDBF and ORCA on the same assembly line.

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> When your enemy is making a mistake never interrupt them!
> 10 Years from now India will be the only country making 4th Gen planes and claim they are world beating.


basically HAL is engaged in developing three different 4.5 gen aircrafts
HAL tejas
HAL mk2 (larger, canarad, different engine)
HAL OCRA (twin engine)

all of these are going to come post 2030. This approach will work against Pakistan but not china, whole northern india is at risk for any conflict, conflict wont be limited to Himalayan mountain/western command as almost ALL Indians think

*where is AMCA?*

if i was IAF chief, i would have asked HAL to just focus on AMCA and forget about everything else, i would instead ask for license production and off set investment in AMCA. HAL R&D in tejas would help but it needed more experience by getting into license production/full tot of 4.5 gen western platform..

this could be rafale, gripen, f16..looking at india financial situation gripen was no brainer choice..i think india could have pulled off license production of GE414(just like sweds did) and would have benefited from all the ToT..

gripen NG in >300 numbers(~ 15b$) would have been lethal aircraft and would have allowed IAF to retire mig 21, mig27, Juaguars, mig29 & mirages2000 and keep 40 squardons, it cost would still have been 15-16 b, the amount iAF spent on rafale & tejas one is too expensive and the other has too many issues with respect to maintence and it being underpowered(20% underpowered as compared to gripen with MUCH HIGHER DRAG)


instead we are looking at 6.5b +8b investment, one with IAF waivers & still just 50% indigenous components, he other with no ToT


FYI brazil is getting complete ToT at 4.5b$ for 36 gripen NG, this would have been much lower per aircraft cost if they opted for 100+ numbers


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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> Is there any nation in the world that takes inputs from public forums to develop their fighters?
> I am sure that some of the finest or even modest aircraft across the world were developed without the inputs from any public forums.
> I am not an insider who knows how Indian government does the business but quite sure that Indian fighter program wouldn’t be taking inputs from this or any other forum. 😀



No one's opinion on this forum matters one bit outside of here. There are paid professionals who take decisions rather than couch potatoes with a lot of time on their hands and the need to troll.

The facts are there for us to see. Ignore petty trolls. They don't matter in the real world.

-The Tejas Mk2 design is frozen. And it is in detailed design with metal cutting for a prototype to begin soon. IAF is fully behind this program, with monthly requirements meetings and reviews. IAF personnel are deputed to the program from the start, unlike in the case of the LCA program at it's start. This is not an R&D program, the goal is to get a Mirage-2000 class fighter in the air in the 4 years.

-The Tejas Mk1A contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in a couple of weeks' time. All groundwork laid. As things stand, it is the most affordable yet capable solution for the IAF to get it's Bison's replaced.

-The TEDBF has the full support of the Indian Navy. The only question-mark is whether the Rafale/Super Hornet will be pursued or not for IAC-2. The big question mark is whether IAC-2 will be approved, and if so, will it use EMALS for CATOBAR ops. If so, the TEDBF will need significant changes since it is being designed today as a STOBAR fighter. 

The IN has tried to tie it's Rafale/Super Hornet acquisition to that of the IAF, but there are too many issues with doing that..like what if the IAF selects F-21?

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> No one's opinion on this forum matters one bit outside of here. There are paid professionals who take decisions rather than couch potatoes with a lot of time on their hands and the need to troll.
> 
> The facts are there for us to see. Ignore petty trolls. They don't matter in the real world.
> 
> -The Tejas Mk2 design is frozen. And it is in detailed design with metal cutting for a prototype to begin soon. IAF is fully behind this program, with monthly requirements meetings and reviews. IAF personnel are deputed to the program from the start, unlike in the case of the LCA program at it's start. This is not an R&D program, the goal is to get a Mirage-2000 class fighter in the air in the 4 years.
> 
> -The Tejas Mk1A contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in a couple of weeks' time. All groundwork laid. As things stand, it is the most affordable yet capable solution for the IAF to get it's Bison's replaced.
> 
> -The TEDBF has the full support of the Indian Navy. The only question-mark is whether the Rafale/Super Hornet will be pursued or not for IAC-2. The big question mark is whether IAC-2 will be approved, and if so, will it use EMALS for CATOBAR ops. If so, the TEDBF will need significant changes since it is being designed today as a STOBAR fighter.
> 
> The IN has tried to tie it's Rafale/Super Hornet acquisition to that of the IAF, but there are too many issues with doing that..like what if the IAF selects F-21?



So this is it, for the next 10-20 years we can well expect India to design, build and produce essentially 4 different types of 4th Gen fighters, whilst inducting possibly more foreign fighter for it's Navy and Air force?

That alone will be a massive effort, out of the reach of all countries, bar maybe US and China.

Meanwhile rivals are just focusing on 2-3 types and mostly 5th Gen?

You see where this all goes bad 10 years from now?


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## The Maverick

we,are still flying 120 mig21 bison 
you Pakistanis are still flying 200 f7 and mirage 5s 

so in house built tejas is a quantum.leap 
as is licensed built thunders .

those saying 300 gripen costing 15 billion 
try close to 25 billion and 15 years to build this and virtually screw driver technology only

we will obtain 70 plus Rafale and 123 Tejas, inside 10 years at cost of 20 billion dollars...

and post 2030 tejas mark 2 

I agree we will.fall behind fifth generation technology way behind China possibly even pakistan .


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> we,are still flying 120 mig21 bison
> you Pakistanis are still flying 200 f7 and mirage 5s
> 
> so in house built tejas is a quantum.leap
> as is licensed built thunders .
> 
> those saying 300 gripen costing 15 billion
> try close to 25 billion and 15 years to build this and virtually screw driver technology only
> 
> we will obtain 70 plus Rafale and 123 Tejas, inside 10 years at cost of 20 billion dollars...
> 
> and post 2030 tejas mark 2
> 
> I agree we will.fall behind fifth generation technology way behind China possibly even pakistan .




"We will" "we will" "we will". The basis of Indian defence.

Also please note F-7 and Mirage numbers are pulled out of your backside. We only have 7 Mirage/F-7 squadrons now. How did you get 200 planes!? That is 28 planes a squadron!!!


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> "We will" "we will" "we will". The basis of Indian defence.
> 
> Also please note F-7 and Mirage numbers are pulled out of your backside. We only have 7 Mirage/F-7 squadrons now. How did you get 200 planes!? That is 28 planes a squadron!!!



no sqds now world wide are 18 to 20
wiki says, 55 f7pg 
150 mirage rise
10 sqds is 50 percent of your air Force


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> no sqds now world wide are 18 to 20
> wiki says, 55 f7pg
> 150 mirage rise
> 10 sqds is 50 percent of your air Force




Ah, now I understand why you type so much crap. You use Wiki as a primary source.


PAF squadron strength is 18 planes. 7 x 18 is 126


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Ah, now I understand why you type so much crap. You use Wiki as a primary source.
> 
> 
> PAF squadron strength is 18 planes. 7 x 18 is 126




Pakistan Air Force (2021) (wdmma.org) 

Not wiki 

But massive numbers of obselete F7 & Mirages and dated 2021


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> Pakistan Air Force (2021) (wdmma.org)
> 
> Not wiki
> 
> But massive numbers of obselete F7 & Mirages and dated 2021



This list is full of inaccuracies. For example it lists PAF as operation AH-1 and Bell 412, it also has PAF down as 2 Falcons when it is 3.

Maybe that is why your posts are so innacurate too (in addition to your usual lies).

Real number of Mirages in PAF service is closer to 90, number of F-7PGs (F-7s almost all retired) is around 60.

in 2021 you can expect at least one more Mirage sqd to be retired too, so PAF will end up with approx

3 Mirage sqds (mostly ROSE upgrades)
3 F-70G sqds (manufactured in 90s and with Grifo radar)
5 F-16 sqds
9 JF-17 sqds

Then take into account every passing year will see 1-2 sqds be replaced by JF-17s, it puts PAF in a much better position vis a vis IAF

7 MIG-21 sqds
6 Jaguar sqds

All the above aircraft at least 40-50 years old. Until first operational MK1a squadron (2024 optimistically), you need to retire at least half the above (if not all the MIG-21 sqds) and only have one extra Rafale sqd coming before then.

IAF strength will than go down from 33 Squadrons now to around 25 squadrons. If you discount the ancient Jaguars, than that goes down to just 19 squadrons. Basically the same size as the PAF!!!!!


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> This list is full of inaccuracies. For example it lists PAF as operation AH-1 and Bell 412, it also has PAF down as 2 Falcons when it is 3.
> 
> Maybe that is why your posts are so innacurate too (in addition to your usual lies).
> 
> Real number of Mirages in PAF service is closer to 90, number of F-7PGs (F-7s almost all retired) is around 60.
> 
> in 2021 you can expect at least one more Mirage sqd to be retired too, so PAF will end up with approx
> 
> 3 Mirage sqds (mostly ROSE upgrades)
> 3 F-7PG sqds (manufactured in 90s and with Grifo radar)
> 5 F-16 sqds
> 9 JF-17 sqds
> 
> Then take into account every passing year will see 1-2 sqds be replaced by JF-17s, it puts PAF in a much better position vis a vis IAF
> 
> 7 MIG-21 sqds
> 6 Jaguar sqds
> 
> All the above aircraft at least 40-50 years old. Until first operational MK1a squadron (2024 optimistically), you need to retire at least half the above (if not all the MIG-21 sqds) and only have one extra Rafale sqd coming before then.
> 
> IAF strength will than go down from 33 Squadrons now to around 25 squadrons. If you discount the ancient Jaguars, than that goes down to just 19 squadrons. Basically the same size as the PAF!!!!!




14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now

Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes

25 Squarons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR

ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds

versis

PAKISTAN

1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sdqs by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
thats 11 sqds only

REST obselete
3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each

AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess


The Maverick said:


> 14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
> 2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
> 2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
> 3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
> 3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now
> 
> Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes
> 
> 25 Squadrons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR
> 
> ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds
> 
> versis
> 
> PAKISTAN
> 
> 1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
> 3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
> 7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sqds by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
> thats 14 sqds only
> 
> REST obselete
> 3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
> 3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each
> 
> AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess




Pakistan miliary budget $10 billion
Indian militaruy budget $60 billion

Indian Gdp 2.7 trillion
Pak GDP $270 billion dollars

Indian forex $580 billion
Pak forex $15 billion

I mean come on man ............. its ridiculous you cant sustain any arms race NO CHANCE


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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> 14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
> 2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
> 2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
> 3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
> 3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now
> 
> Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes
> 
> 25 Squarons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR
> 
> ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds
> 
> versis
> 
> PAKISTAN
> 
> 1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
> 3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
> 7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sdqs by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
> thats 11 sqds only
> 
> REST obselete
> 3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
> 3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each
> 
> AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan miliary budget $10 billion
> Indian militaruy budget $60 billion
> 
> Indian Gdp 2.7 trillion
> Pak GDP $270 billion dollars
> 
> Indian forex $580 billion
> Pak forex $15 billion
> 
> I mean come on man ............. its ridiculous you cant sustain any arms race NO CHANCE




My maths is accurate, issue here is (as usual) you fudge the numbers, so it's hard to compete with lies.

IAF

You have 12 MKI squadrons as per Scramble, not 14.
You only have 1 full Tejas squadron, 1 "squadron" only has 2 planes. You cannot count it
So my maths is 100% accurate. If India does retire the Jaguars you go down to 19 squadrons.


PAF has

8 JF-17 squadrons (not 7) as per scramble
You missed 1 PAF F-16 ADF squadron (again, I take that for granted with your lies)

So as mentioned

5 F-16 units
8 JF-17 unite
3 Mirages units (modernised for strike)
3 F-7PG units (not cutting edge but can take on a Jaguar!)

As mentioned, a much better position, and JF-17s will continue to pour in.

LCA MK1a (no contract signature)
MIG-29s (no contract signature)
Extra Rafales (no contract signature)


All of the above will take at least 3 years minimum to arrive assuming India even signs a contract

So yes, in 2023 you will be looking at a PAF of

10 JF-17 squadrons
5 F-16 squadrons
3 F-7PG squadrons

V

IAF

2 Rafale sqds
12 MKI sqds
2 Mirage 2000 sqds (only 45 planes so not enough for 3 squadrons)
3 MIG-29 sqds
6 Jaguar Sqds

25 IAF v 19 PAF


In Pakistani terms, we call that a fair fight! Not even taking into account how much of these units will now have to be station towards China.

Vis a vis the PAF, the IAF will be it's smallest ever


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> My maths is accurate, issue here is (as usual) you fudge the numbers, so it's hard to compete with lies.
> 
> IAF
> 
> You have 12 MKI squadrons as per Scramble, not 14.
> You only have 1 full Tejas squadron, 1 "squadron" only has 2 planes. You cannot count it
> So my maths is 100% accurate. If India does retire the Jaguars you go down to 19 squadrons.
> 
> 
> PAF has
> 
> 8 JF-17 squadrons (not 7) as per scramble
> You missed 1 PAF F-16 ADF squadron (again, I take that for granted with your lies)
> 
> So as mentioned
> 
> 5 F-16 units
> 8 JF-17 unite
> 3 Mirages units (modernised for strike)
> 3 F-7PG units (not cutting edge but can take on a Jaguar!)
> 
> As mentioned, a much better position, and JF-17s will continue to pour in.
> 
> LCA MK1a (no contract signature)
> MIG-29s (no contract signature)
> Extra Rafales (no contract signature)
> 
> 
> All of the above will take at least 3 years minimum to arrive assuming India even signs a contract
> 
> So yes, in 2023 you will be looking at a PAF of
> 
> 10 JF-17 squadrons
> 5 F-16 squadrons
> 3 F-7PG squadrons
> 
> V
> 
> IAF
> 
> 2 Rafale sqds
> 12 MKI sqds
> 2 Mirage 2000 sqds (only 45 planes so not enough for 3 squadrons)
> 3 MIG-29 sqds
> 6 Jaguar Sqds
> 
> 25 IAF v 19 PAF
> 
> 
> In Pakistani terms, we call that a fair fight! Not even taking into account how much of these units will now have to be station towards China.
> 
> Vis a vis the PAF, the IAF will be it's smallest ever




YOU MISSED THESE BABYS 







They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version 

2 sqds 40 planes VERY important


The Maverick said:


> YOU MISSED THESE BABYS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version
> 
> 2 sqds 40 planes VERY important




Also we have 272 su30mki in 14 sqdd

not 12 sqds tha only 240 mki fighters WE have far more than this 

Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Rafale, LCA Tejas, Mirage 2000, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar: The Indian Air Force fighters | India News | Zee News 

PLEASE READ AGAIN = 272 FIGHTERS ............... sorry to bust you again


----------



## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> YOU MISSED THESE BABYS
> 
> View attachment 708153
> 
> 
> They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version
> 
> 2 sqds 40 planes VERY important
> 
> 
> 
> Also we have 272 su30mki in 14 sqdd
> 
> not 12 sqds tha only 240 mki fighters WE have far more than this
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Rafale, LCA Tejas, Mirage 2000, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar: The Indian Air Force fighters | India News | Zee News
> 
> PLEASE READ AGAIN = 272 FIGHTERS ............... sorry to bust you again



Yes, I did not count TEJAS as even by IAF' own admission they are not fully combat capable, but lets count them too, it does not radically change the equation.

The MKI squadron numbers are from Scramble, the most accurate flight database on the internet


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, I did not count TEJAS as even by IAF' own admission they are not fully combat capable, but lets count them too, it does not radically change the equation.
> 
> The MKI squadron numbers are from Scramble, the most accurate flight database on the internet




no the 272 fighters is well documentated thru the military aviation world and talked to death 
you can't change the truth no matter how hard you try ...
tejas not combat ready 
where you get this story from.

it's more ready than your 200 vintage mirage and f7 
and probably far safer to fly than your entire air force due to modern flight control.and computers 

it's the most advanced flight control bar Rafale and only your block 52 comes to this level 

5 or 6 crashes if thunders.this far in 10.years
told you Russian engines with poor man flight control.is a,receipe for service issues down the 'line

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> No one's opinion on this forum matters one bit outside of here. There are paid professionals who take decisions rather than couch potatoes with a lot of time on their hands and the need to troll.
> 
> The facts are there for us to see. Ignore petty trolls. They don't matter in the real world.
> 
> -The Tejas Mk2 design is frozen. And it is in detailed design with metal cutting for a prototype to begin soon. IAF is fully behind this program, with monthly requirements meetings and reviews. IAF personnel are deputed to the program from the start, unlike in the case of the LCA program at it's start. This is not an R&D program, the goal is to get a Mirage-2000 class fighter in the air in the 4 years.
> 
> -The Tejas Mk1A contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in a couple of weeks' time. All groundwork laid. As things stand, it is the most affordable yet capable solution for the IAF to get it's Bison's replaced.
> 
> -The TEDBF has the full support of the Indian Navy. The only question-mark is whether the Rafale/Super Hornet will be pursued or not for IAC-2. The big question mark is whether IAC-2 will be approved, and if so, will it use EMALS for CATOBAR ops. If so, the TEDBF will need significant changes since it is being designed today as a STOBAR fighter.
> 
> The IN has tried to tie it's Rafale/Super Hornet acquisition to that of the IAF, but there are too many issues with doing that..like what if the IAF selects F-21?


it will be a miracle for anyone let alone a somone less experience to get a new design into inductionw ithin 4 years
best case senrio will be 10 yeasr that is 2030, i think this is what IAF is also looking at

but


VkdIndian said:


> Yes I agree. LCA MK II is quite different but has a Tejas Pedigree. Lot of stuff that has been tried and tested on Tejas, is likely to go into LCA MK II. Tejas had a lot of technologies tried upon for the first time. They have matured and Tejas also proved to be a test bed for quite a few of them. Hence, learning curve is likely to be a little less steep for LCA MK II.
> 
> As far as LCA MK II and AMCA are considered, they are of different class and capability. There may not be enough capability to jump to AMCA right now. LCA is more achievable target with the current capabilities already existing in India. LCA MK II might be one step closer in AMCAs direction..


Mk2 HAL misdirection 
Wrong move to build a 4th gen fighter now
It is impossible timeline.

HAL should have focused only on AMCA

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> no the 272 fighters is well documentated thru the military aviation world and talked to death
> you can't change the truth no matter how hard you try ...
> tejas not combat ready
> where you get this story from.
> 
> it's more ready than your 200 vintage mirage and f7
> and probably far safer to fly than your entire air force due to modern flight control.and computers
> 
> it's the most advanced flight control bar Rafale and only your block 52 comes to this level
> 
> 5 or 6 crashes if thunders.this far in 10.years
> told you Russian engines with poor man flight control.is a,receipe for service issues down the 'line




Again, no need to lie, just provide evidence. HAL has only produced 260 MKIs so far, 9 have been lost to accidents, that gives you 251 MKIs, approx 12 Sqds worth assuming some examples are for test and TACDE.

Only 3 Thunder crashes in 10 years, can you provide evidence of 6 crashes?

More you lie more I will get a chance to expose you. Stick to the debate. Yes Rafael is advanced, 

Truth is in 2 years from now IAF will be smallest it has ever been vis a vis PAF, No amount of lies can hide that

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Again, no need to lie, just provide evidence. HAL has only produced 260 MKIs so far, 9 have been lost to accidents, that gives you 251 MKIs, approx 12 Sqds worth assuming some examples are for test and TACDE.
> 
> Only 3 Thunder crashes in 10 years, can you provide evidence of 6 crashes?
> 
> More you lie more I will get a chance to expose you. Stick to the debate. Yes Rafael is advanced,
> 
> Truth is in 2 years from now IAF will be smallest it has ever been vis a vis PAF, No amount of lies can hide that




If you follow and trends closely all.airforces,are shrinking globally
why
because force multipliers,
and multi role fighters mean fewer combat.planes needed.

it's quality that counts 
s400 
Barak 
phalcon awacs 
green pine radars 
instat military satilites
afnet 
Rafale 
tejas
mki 

this is serious military hardware costing serious dollars,

not budget driven or third tier stuff from.china. 


afnet

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> If you follow and trends closely all.airforces,are shrinking globally
> why
> because force multipliers,
> and multi role fighters mean fewer combat.planes needed.
> 
> it's quality that counts
> s400
> Barak
> phalcon awacs
> green pine radars
> instat military satilites
> afnet
> Rafale
> tejas
> mki
> 
> this is serious military hardware costing serious dollars,
> 
> not budget driven or third tier stuff from.china.
> 
> 
> afnet




Please, do not backtrack now, I am aware all air forces get smaller as planes get more advanced, but 25 sqds v 18 PAF sqds and 60 PLAF Sqds?

Also do not try and change subject, I exposed your lies on MKI numbers and number of Thunder crashes.

You stated there were 6 Thunder crashes when there were only 3, where is your source to back up your lies?

You stated IAF has 272 MKIs when it only has 251, again provide source.


Once you get caught lying as you are so embaressed by Indian failures I will not let you go now......

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## KapitaanAli

ziaulislam said:


> HAL should have focused only on AMCA


This will not work. Countries like India, Pakistan and China cannot sustain a stealth only multirole fleet. You could argue we should skip Mk1A but it should be counted as R&D cost. Mk2 is the true culmination of all these efforts and they'll serve IAF for decades alongside the AMCA.

Also note that Mk2 and AMCA are not HAL projects, which is just the production agency.

MK1A: HAL reality.
ORCA: HAL dream.

Mk1, Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA: ADA projects.

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## MirageBlue

From HAL CMD 

7 Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters to handed over to the IAF by March 2021 end. Remaining 9 single seater Tejas Mk1 FOCs will be handed over in 2021-2022. 

All 8 Mk1 Trainers to delivered in 2022-23 (they are all to be at FOC level and design is ongoing).

Link

My guess is that the remaining 10 Mk1 trainers will also be handed over after those 8, to be then followed by the first Tejas Mk1A fighters.


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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> From HAL CMD
> 
> 7 Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters to handed over to the IAF by March 2021 end. Remaining 9 single seater Tejas Mk1 FOCs will be handed over in 2021-2022.
> 
> All 8 Mk1 Trainers to delivered in 2022-23 (they are all to be at FOC level and design is ongoing).
> 
> Link
> 
> My guess is that the remaining 10 Mk1 trainers will also be handed over after those 8, to be then followed by the first Tejas Mk1A fighters.



So 7 new planes being handed over to IAF next month when HAL only produced 6 in total in all of 2020?

How does that work?


----------



## MirageBlue

In other news- the Astra Mk1 integration with Tejas Mk1 is nearing completion. So the longest range BVRAAM in IAF inventory is soon to be on squadron Tejas Mk1s. 

Twitter link



> Getting news that Astra Integration with Tejas LSP is nearing completion.

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Please, do not backtrack now, I am aware all air forces get smaller as planes get more advanced, but 25 sqds v 18 PAF sqds and 60 PLAF Sqds?
> 
> Also do not try and change subject, I exposed your lies on MKI numbers and number of Thunder crashes.
> 
> You stated there were 6 Thunder crashes when there were only 3, where is your source to back up your lies?
> 
> You stated IAF has 272 MKIs when it only has 251, again provide source.
> 
> 
> Once you get caught lying as you are so embaressed by Indian failures I will not let you go now......



lies,is very strong world
you are getting a bit hot under the collar
I see the ground reality of military power industrial mightb


Yasser76 said:


> So 7 new planes being handed over to IAF next month when HAL only produced 6 in total in all of 2020?
> 
> How does that work?



it's called scaling up production 
assembly lines
multiple platforms being worked on at same time 
nobody said 7 in one day
it may 7 handed over in 3 week period 
but we have a plant with 2 operational lines now

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> lies,is very strong world
> you are getting a bit hot under the collar
> I see the ground reality of military power industrial mightb
> 
> 
> it's called scaling up production
> assembly lines
> multiple platforms being worked on at same time
> nobody said 7 in one day
> it may 7 handed over in 3 week period
> but we have a plant with 2 operational lines now



Deloberatly spreading false information is called lying.

You still have not answered my question or given sources for the MKI numbers and where you got 6 Thunder crashes from when the number is 3. Do you want to just admit you lie and save face now or risk more humiliation?


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## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> you don't have single operational block 3 in pak service.... not one


After dragging them on trailers, It took you some 30 years to field handful number of Tejas. While there are over 100 JF-17 operational. 


> until then it's same status as tejas mark 1a


Lol at same.....you talking about Tejas which you don't have the confidence to fly even for republic day flypast. 


> you have block 1 and 2 in 7 sqds at best .
> and these are at best comparable to tejas,mark one and we have 20 plus in service.in 2 sqds.
> 
> in some aspects tejas,maybe superior


There are no Block-1 as all have been upgraded to Block-2 standrds. 
JF-17s have been tried and tested in combat, even before raiding targets in IOK, it had earlier shot down a spy drone in the middle of night.....what does your Tejas has to show for it'self or for that matter even your so called Raptor of the east doesn't have anything under it's belt...BTW, weather balloons don't count.
As for Tejas being better.....once upon a time SU-30 was also considered the same.

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## The Maverick

Windjammer said:


> After dragging them on trailers, It took you some 30 years to field handful number of Tejas. While there are over 100 JF-17 operational.
> 
> Lol at same.....you talking about Tejas which you don't have the confidence to fly even for republic day flypast.
> 
> There are no Block-1 as all have been upgraded to Block-2 standrds.
> JF-17s have been tried and tested in combat, even before raiding targets in IOK, it had earlier shot down a spy drone in the middle of night.....what does your Tejas has to show for it'self or for that matter even your so called Raptor of the east doesn't have anything under it's belt...BTW, weather balloons don't count.
> As for Tejas being better.....once upon a time SU-30 was also considered the same.




shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders


Yasser76 said:


> Deloberatly spreading false information is called lying.
> 
> You still have not answered my question or given sources for the MKI numbers and where you got 6 Thunder crashes from when the number is 3. Do you want to just admit you lie and save face now or risk more humiliation?



broken record re your 251 comment 
show where you got that from first 
then we talk

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> In other news- the Astra Mk1 integration with Tejas Mk1 is nearing completion. So the longest range BVRAAM in IAF inventory is soon to be on squadron Tejas Mk1s.
> 
> Twitter link




Since when is a single Tweet a credible confirmation? And even more "nearing completion" does in no way mean "is soon on Tejas squadrons"!

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## Kingslayerr

The Maverick said:


> shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
> it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
> shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders
> 
> 
> broken record re your 251 comment
> show where you got that from first
> then we talk


So according to you our f-16s never came close to your MKIs so how come your "RapT0Rs oF tHe eAST" were dodging AAMRAMs?. Quit lying man.

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
> it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
> shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders
> 
> 
> broken record re your 251 comment
> show where you got that from first
> then we talk



Back up your claims on 6 Thunder crashes (which is a lie) than we will talk.

Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?


Deino said:


> Since when is a single Tweet a credible confirmation? And even more is nearing completion" does in no way mean "is soon on Tejas squadrons"!




They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....

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## Tair-Lahoti

From THE PRINT INDIA: Tejas cleared for IAF: Implications for the service, & its chequered history with Indian fighters

Summary
PAST:

Project Started in 1983, India wanted to replace Mig-21. Which it failed to do so due to:
i- Technology Denial by the western countries.
ii- India was proficient in some technologies i.e metallurgy. Owing to the great Metallurgy Scientist, the head of DRDO Auranachalam.
iii- But India didn't have the technology of engine, radar, avionics etc.
iv- India started domestic engine Kaveri engine, which failed.

Tejas took its first flight in 2001, after western technology denial ended, and Tejas flew with American General Electric Engine.

Present:

Tejas is 50% indeginous and there is no shame in it: Engine, Avionics, Radar, Electronic Warfare suits, Ejection seats are all imported systems.

20 Tejas MK1 are in IOC (initial Operational Clearance), 20 of them are in FOC (Final Operational Clearance), 20 more are delivered in jan 2021.

Tejas MK1 can fire BVR Derby from Israel.........

FUTURE: 

Tejas MK1A will start to roll out in 2023-24 with some newer systems, which will be better much than JF-17:

i- AESA RADAR, will be able to track 16 targets at the same time
ii- Will be able to launch Astra BVR
iii- Will have mid air refueling probe.......

iv- Enhanced Combat radius, and Electronic warfare ability.

Summary of a video posted by THE PRINT, only shared key points about TEJAS. Its all being said by the Print, and doesn't include or represent my views.

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## Daghalodi

Yasser76 said:


> Back up your claims on 6 Thunder crashes (which is a lie) than we will talk.
> 
> Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?
> 
> 
> 
> They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....



You are Right.

Bharati Trolls are spreading alot of disinformation about Tejas. 

Its neccessary to expose those Indian Troll Rubbish

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## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
> it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
> shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders.


Yea except when the Indian SU-30 shot down a weather balloon, it was a feather in the cap.
Thunder has gained more combat experience than all of IAF's front line combined.
As for rest, that information is not for an Indian fanboy who spends all his time and energies to copy paste all under the sun just to sooth his tiny ego.

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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> Yea except when the Indian SU-30 shot down a weather balloon, it was a feather in the cap.
> Thunder has gained more combat experience than all of IAF's front line combined.
> As for rest, that information is not for an Indian fanboy who spends all his time and energies to copy paste all under the sun just to sooth his tiny ego.




JF-17 lobbed missiles on to Indian targets, 12 squadrons of SU-30MKIs could not stop them.

That is all you really need to know.

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## Anik101

Metal cutting for first MWF prototype has started at HAL. First aircraft to roll out by mid of next year with first flight in 2023.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351568582224723968MWF will have 11 harpoints with payload capacity of 6.5 tons which is slightly better than mirage 2000H currently operated by IAF. It will also have IRST, AESA radar, and better thrust to weight ratio compared to mirage 2000H.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Since when is a single Tweet a credible confirmation? And even more "nearing completion" does in no way mean "is soon on Tejas squadrons"!



We've known that the Astra Mk1 integration has been on-going for the Tejas Mk1 for a few months. Nothing new about it. This was just confirmation that it's near completion. Once done, test firings will be conducted and then the weapon is qualified for the Tejas Mk1. Next obvious step is to equip squadrons with the Astra Mk1, 248 of which has been ordered. 

I think you have a problem with everything Indian..if you think this isn't credible, how is it that you cover Chinese aviation where almost nothing comes officially and most of it is from fanboys?


Yasser76 said:


> Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?
> 
> 
> 
> They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....



Wow! Look at the irony!!

Pot calling the kettle black! The biggest troll in this thread is complaining about misinformation!

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> ...
> I think you have a problem with everything Indian..if you think this isn't credible, how is it that you cover Chinese aviation where almost nothing comes officially and most of it is from fanboys?
> ...




Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and *SOON *(IMO the most often word used in such posts) there *WILL *(IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed. 

That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.

A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.

Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:

My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.

And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
- no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
- NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
- ...

I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.

Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.

As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.

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## Yasser76

Deino said:


> Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and *SOON *(IMO the most often word used in such posts) there *WILL *(IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.
> 
> That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.
> 
> A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.
> 
> Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:
> 
> My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.
> 
> And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
> - no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
> - NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
> - ...
> 
> I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.
> 
> Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.
> 
> As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.



Excellent post from someone who has in depth knowledge, now watch Indians go crazy on this thread...

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## Deino

Yasser76 said:


> Excellent post from someone who has in depth knowledge, now watch Indians go crazy on this thread...




Thanks my friend. Best and take care.

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## VkdIndian

Deino said:


> Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question:


An apt and unbiased analysis.

Usage of words *SOON *and *WILL *has been bane of the Indian PSU defence undertakings. They have failed repeatedly in delivering on thier promises.

This time their claim is that they have changed the procedures and processes. For Indian audience that sounds like a hope and for detractors it continues to sound like hollow promises.

These promises should turn into clear and visible work and results within one year since a lot has been promised within that time frame.

Being an Indian I am hopeful. Next 1 year is not too long a period to lay bare the realities. So I will wait and watch with fingers crossed.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and *SOON *(IMO the most often word used in such posts) there *WILL *(IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.
> 
> That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.
> 
> A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.
> 
> Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:
> 
> My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.
> 
> And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
> - no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
> - NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
> - ...
> 
> I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.
> 
> Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.
> 
> As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.



You are entitled to your views.

The biggest difference between India and China is the political system.

India being a democracy with all it's committees, audit agencies, massive bureaucracy and red-tapism, etc. means that things don't always move at the pace one wants. There's always roadblocks that don't necessarily disappear because the politicians don't care about anything else but how to get votes. Strategic calculations, etc. are mostly left to technocrats and bureaucrats who can and will delay files. Plus, India is a very lucrative defence market. That naturally means all companies that sell billions of $ worth of products have every reason to stifle, bad mouth or scuttle indigenous programs. Bribery happens, articles are planted.

Luckily, even with all that, the Tejas somehow managed to keep going through various Govts, some that didn't care about self reliance and some that were more nationalistic and wanted the program to succeed.

A lot has changed in the last few years with the NDA govt. at the helm looking to reverse the trend of massive imports and make India a defence exporter. The Govt. has put 101 items on an Import ban list. Self Reliance is the new mantra and everyone is repeating it because the Govt. has put a lot of pressure on agencies for it.

Compared to that is a Communist nation like China where there is very little transparency, and political dictats aren't subject to the vagaries that democracies impose, where a new Govt. isn't likely to change funding priorities, etc. If the govt. has the will to push through and enforce policies, there really isn't anyone out there to question and oppose them the way the multiple opposition parties in India always do. There's a BIG curtain in all Communist nations and propaganda and lies are de jure for them all. Soviet Russia was that way, North Korea is that way and so is China. 

Anyway this is a big topic and probably not right for this thread as it may derail current discussions.

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Again, no need to lie, just provide evidence. HAL has only produced 260 MKIs so far, 9 have been lost to accidents, that gives you 251 MKIs, approx 12 Sqds worth assuming some examples are for test and TACDE.
> 
> Only 3 Thunder crashes in 10 years, can you provide evidence of 6 crashes?
> 
> More you lie more I will get a chance to expose you. Stick to the debate. Yes Rafael is advanced,
> 
> Truth is in 2 years from now IAF will be smallest it has ever been vis a vis PAF, No amount of lies can hide that


11 .crashes per indian open source





Indian Air Force, Indian Army and Naval Aviation Accidents and Incidents - [www.bharat-rakshak.com]


A comprehensive database of Aircraft Accidents and losses at www.bharat-rakshak.com, spanning over 80 years



www.bharat-rakshak.com




vs 
2 confirmed 1 unkown speculative crash


Deino said:


> Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and *SOON *(IMO the most often word used in such posts) there *WILL *(IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.
> 
> That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.
> 
> A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.
> 
> Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:
> 
> My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.
> 
> And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
> - no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
> - NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
> - ...
> 
> I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.
> 
> Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.
> 
> As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.


Even for a country like USA or china
Starting a new program will take atleast a decade

India it will take more time

Lets not kid our self, mk2 is new plan its not tejas

Similarly OCRA is new twin engine plan its no where near tejas

The timelien that IAF expects for these are after 2030(production 120 tejas till 2029)

But suspect OCRA if ordered will be well beyond 2035

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## Tair-Lahoti

Tair-Lahoti said:


> From THE PRINT INDIA: Tejas cleared for IAF: Implications for the service, & its chequered history with Indian fighters
> 
> Summary
> PAST:
> 
> Project Started in 1983, India wanted to replace Mig-21. Which it failed to do so due to:
> i- Technology Denial by the western countries.
> ii- India was proficient in some technologies i.e metallurgy. Owing to the great Metallurgy Scientist, the head of DRDO Auranachalam.
> iii- But India didn't have the technology of engine, radar, avionics etc.
> iv- India started domestic engine Kaveri engine, which failed.
> 
> Tejas took its first flight in 2001, after western technology denial ended, and Tejas flew with American General Electric Engine.
> 
> Present:
> 
> Tejas is 50% indeginous and there is no shame in it: Engine, Avionics, Radar, Electronic Warfare suits, Ejection seats are all imported systems.
> 
> 20 Tejas MK1 are in IOC (initial Operational Clearance), 20 of them are in FOC (Final Operational Clearance), 20 more are delivered in jan 2021.
> 
> Tejas MK1 can fire BVR Derby from Israel.........
> 
> FUTURE:
> 
> Tejas MK1A will start to roll out in 2023-24 with some newer systems, which will be better much than JF-17:
> 
> i- AESA RADAR, will be able to track 16 targets at the same time
> ii- Will be able to launch Astra BVR
> iii- Will have mid air refueling probe.......
> 
> iv- Enhanced Combat radius, and Electronic warfare ability.
> 
> Summary of a video posted by THE PRINT, only shared key points about TEJAS. Its all being said by the Print, and doesn't include or represent my views.


I don't know what is good in this videos for Indians' that Mevrick liked the summary. From my perspective:
i- Tejas current version is not better than JF-17, as admitted in the video. 
ii- Future Tejas MK1A will be better than JF-17 block-1 and 2., as showed in the video and you cant compare it with block-3 as we don't know the real capabilities of that jet yet. 
iii- They said all of the delay was due to western technology denial, which ended in 2001 as said by the Print. yet it took 20 years to materialize.
iv- Even if we accept the excuse that all of the delay was due to engine and technology denial, then Russia was still there for India.. Russia was providing top of the line gadgets, then why India couldn't get it done?
v. Tejas MK1A is promised to take first flight in 23-24, I don't know what is there to be happy about that? it will take further 3 to 4 to induct them. 

other matters are all pertain to technical aspects, which I can't say anything about. Experts can make comments.


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## Yasser76

Reasons why LCA will never be exported

1) Lack of enthusiasm by IAF, even if they order 83 LCA it pretty much seems it is being forced on them
2) US Engine will need US permission
3) Strange mix of weapons (mainly Israeli/Indian) that are not in service in 99% of countries
4) Price, seems to go up or down depending on HAL, also 2 JF-17s can be purchased for 1 LCA
5) Training, does India have training infrastructure to train/convert pilots on LCA? No two seaters yet
6) Not combat proven


Now look at JF-17

1) PAF fully behind all blocks, in 8 PAF squadrons, Nigerian AF, Myanmar AF
2) Chinese or Russian engine, usually no export controls
3) Can use Chinese, US, Pakistani, Brazilian missiles
4) Price very competative, China will even give loan guarantees 
5) PAF Has vast training infrastucture with 1 squadron dedicated to conversion and 26 two seater produced, can easily handle foreign training like we did for Nigeria
6) Saw combat against India

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Reasons why LCA will never be exported
> 
> 1) Lack of enthusiasm by IAF, even if they order 83 LCA it pretty much seems it is being forced on them
> 2) US Engine will need US permission
> 3) Strange mix of weapons (mainly Israeli/Indian) that are not in service in 99% of countries
> 4) Price, seems to go up or down depending on HAL, also 2 JF-17s can be purchased for 1 LCA
> 5) Training, does India have training infrastructure to train/convert pilots on LCA? No two seaters yet
> 6) Not combat proven
> 
> 
> Now look at JF-17
> 
> 1) PAF fully behind all blocks, in 8 PAF squadrons, Nigerian AF, Myanmar AF
> 2) Chinese or Russian engine, usually no export controls
> 3) Can use Chinese, US, Pakistani, Brazilian missiles
> 4) Price very competative, China will even give loan guarantees
> 5) PAF Has vast training infrastucture with 1 squadron dedicated to conversion and 26 two seater produced, can easily handle foreign training like we did for Nigeria
> 6) Saw combat against India


reason why it may be exported

good financing made by india available
western countries which have good acess to usa weapons but for some weird reasons will not be able to get gripen NG, used f16s or f16s (all of whom are similar priced and light years ahead)


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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> reason why it may be exported
> 
> good financing made by india available
> western countries which have good acess to usa weapons but for some weird reasons will not be able to get gripen NG, used f16s or f16s (all of whom are similar priced and light years ahead)





ziaulislam said:


> reason why it may be exported
> 
> good financing made by india available
> western countries which have good acess to usa weapons but for some weird reasons will not be able to get gripen NG, used f16s or f16s (all of whom are similar priced and light years ahead)




I disagree, in current situation India having trouble evening financing it's own deals. 
LCA not integrated with any US or European weapons


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> I disagree, in current situation India having trouble evening financing it's own deals.
> LCA not integrated with any US or European weapons


they are pushing it to bengladesh and srilanka
if india provides a billion dollars of credit to each with zero interest rate then each may buy 12 aircrafts and if America clears it and Israelis' are okay and France and Germans are okay lol


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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> they are pushing it to bengladesh and srilanka
> if india provides a billion dollars of credit to each with zero interest rate then each may buy 12 aircrafts and if America clears it and Israelis' are okay and France and Germans are okay lol




Hahahaha, yes good point, they will need a lot of OKs! Sri Lanka has no love for India


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## MirageBlue

Confirmation that the deal for 73 Tejas Mk1A and 10 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers will be signed by MoD with HAL at Aero India in a couple of weeks.





> The three-day Aero-India will also see the defence ministry inking the Rs 46,898 crore contract for 73 "improved" Tejas fighter jets and 10 trainers with defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics, the biggest-ever
> indigenous military deal that was approved by the Cabinet committee on security last week.

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## MirageBlue

Here's a brochure for the Elta EL 8212/8222 Wide Band EW jammer pod that will be a key part of the EW suite of the Tejas Mk1A. It is already integrated with the Elta 2052 AESA radar, being a product of the same company. One damn good piece of EW Self protection jammer kit. 

EL 8212/8222 WB SPJ

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.



NEIN, Sie wagen es, die Überlegenheit der vedischen Technologie zu leugnen


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## MirageBlue

Some more updates from Dr Girish Deodhare, ADA Director

On the indigenous Uttam AESA radar:

Currently flying on 2 Tejas LSP prototypes and being tested by the IAF
Doing very well in flight tests
Expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A soon
Radar testing is a long process
Plan is to use the Elta 2052 for the first few Tejas Mk1A, then the Uttam AESA radar will be used after it is ready
For Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, only upgraded versions of Uttam AESA radar are being considered, no imported AESA radars
Tejas Mk2 will have an indigenous upgraded Uttam AESA radar derivative with more T/W elements due to larger radome aperture
For AMCA, the upgraded Uttam AESA radar derivative will also have to support stealth features
All of these developments are happening concurrently at LRDE, the DRDO lab responsible for the AESA radar development

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Some more updates from Dr Girish Deodhare, ADA Director
> 
> On the indigenous Uttam AESA radar:
> 
> Currently flying on 2 Tejas LSP prototypes and being tested by the IAF
> Doing very well in flight tests
> Expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A soon
> Radar testing is a long process
> Plan is to use the Elta 2052 for the first few Tejas Mk1A, then the Uttam AESA radar will be used after it is ready
> For Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, only upgraded versions of Uttam AESA radar are being considered, no imported AESA radars
> Tejas Mk2 will have an indigenous upgraded Uttam AESA radar derivative with more T/W elements due to larger radome aperture
> For AMCA, the upgraded Uttam AESA radar derivative will also have to support stealth features
> All of these developments are happening concurrently at LRDE, the DRDO lab responsible for the AESA radar development



"


Expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A soon"

How is this possible if HAL have actually stated that they need this year to deliver the MK1s on order and first MK1A will not be ready by 2023? HAL actually contradicting itself?

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## MirageBlue

Tejas SP23 just had it's first flight today. 

Twitter link



> Tejas #SP23 completes successful first flight. Piloted by HAL TP Gp Capt Rajeev Joshi (Retd). Will update if anything interesting further.





Yasser76 said:


> "
> 
> 
> Expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A soon"
> 
> How is this possible if HAL have actually stated that they need this year to deliver the MK1s on order and first MK1A will not be ready by 2023? HAL actually contradicting itself?



Tejas Mk1A prototype is basically modified Tejas Mk1 LSP, not new build prototypes. 

Uttam is already flying on Tejas Mk1 LSPs for full qualification of the radar in air to air, air to ground and air to sea modes. It should be integrated with another prototype ear-marked as a Mk1A prototype once the flight tests on the other 2 LSPs is completed.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas SP23 just had it's first flight today.
> 
> Twitter link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Mk1A prototype is basically modified Tejas Mk1 LSP, not new build prototypes.
> 
> Uttam is already flying on Tejas Mk1 LSPs for full qualification of the radar in air to air, air to ground and air to sea modes. It should be integrated with another prototype ear-marked as a Mk1A prototype once the flight tests on the other 2 LSPs is completed.




I am confused. Is HAL Building a MK1A prototype than along with trying to fill the current MK1 order? So you are claiming MK1A is flying (as MK1 LSP)? Thats pretty big news, you better tell HAL and IAF, quickly....

Or maybe this is all just more BS that HAL comes out with on a regular basis?

For someone constantly stressing the need for factual posts, you fall well below your own standard....


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> I am confused. Is HAL Building a MK1A prototype than along with trying to fill the current MK1 order? So you are claiming MK1A is flying (as MK1 LSP)? Thats pretty big news, you better tell HAL and IAF, quickly....
> 
> Or maybe this is all just more BS that HAL comes out with on a regular basis?
> 
> For someone constantly stressing the need for factual posts, you fall well below your own standard....


Plan is to build mk1a till 2030(124 order)
Get a prototype following for mk2(a new fighter) by 2023 and get all certifications done by 2030/ serial production by 2030
With plan to induct after 2030

This mk2 will replace the aging migs after 2030 and mirages after 2040
OCRA will be pitched to the navy and if navy says yes will be built by 2025 with serial production by 2032-35
So basically HAL intends to
1. Develop AMCA by god knows when(2026 prototype?!!)
2. Devleop mk2 MWF by 2030 prototype by 2023
3. Develop OCRA heavy fightet if yes by navy for the navy
4. Develop the SMART TRAINER.
5. Built mk1a (100+ pending)
6. Integrate indegionous radar for mk2 & engine for AMCA

in nutshell HAL is pitching it can do more in next 10 years then what it has done in last 70 years
That is to develop 4 new fighters and serial produce 1 of them
Even china with several of its aviation branches couldnt do this but indians are trying..let see what happens

Atleast CGIs are all done

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> Plan is to build mk1a till 2030(124 order)
> Get a prototype following for mk2(a new fighter) by 2023 and get all certifications done by 2030/ serial production by 2030
> With plan to induct after 2030
> 
> This mk2 will replace the aging migs after 2030 and mirages after 2040
> OCRA will be pitched to the navy and if navy says yes will be built by 2025 with serial production by 2032-35
> So basically HAL intends to
> 1. Develop AMCA by god knows when(2030)
> 2. Devleop mk2 MWF by 2030 prototype by 2023
> 3. Develop OCRA heavy fightet if yes by navy for the navy
> 4. Develop the SMART TRAINER.
> 5. Built mk1a (100+ pending)
> 6. Integrate indegionous radar for mk2 & engine for AMCA
> 
> in nutshell HAL is pitching it can do more in next 10 years then what it has done in last 70 years
> That is to develop 4 new fighters and serial produce 1 of them
> Even china with several of its aviation branches couldnt do this but indians are trying..let see what happens
> 
> Atleast CGIs are all done




Yeah, just wanted to pick him up on Uttam suddenly being integrated in a plane that does not exist. As usual he has done a dissapearing act when questioned....

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Yeah, just wanted to pick him up on Uttam suddenly being integrated in a plane that does not exist. As usual he has done a dissapearing act when questioned....


Plan is ambitious but impossible 
If india does it i will consider india as world leader in avaition as noone has done this before
To build 4 new jets within 6 years not even china 

For now it seems india is well behind in LCA production and meeting 2030 deadline for 123 is not possible with CURRENT RATE

But will india be able to make the MWF(Mk2), OCRA, SMART LCA, AMCA all by 2026..well we will have to wait

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> Plan is ambitious but impossible
> If india does it i will consider india as world leader in avaition as noone has done this before
> To build 4 new jets within 6 years not even china
> 
> For now it seems india is well behind in LCA production and meeting 2030 deadline for 123 is not possible with CURRENT RATE
> 
> But will india be able to make the MWF(Mk2), OCRA, SMART LCA, AMCA all by 2026..well we will have to wait




It's actually good for us that they feed their masses this BS. Means they will never have a real onus to try and really achieve anything.

Sweden with population of 10 million made a jet quickly with US engine, sold it to 6 countries. First flight was in 1989, first batch of 110 planes ordered in 1992, first full combat squadron First full combat squadron in 1997.

Now compare that with India (who had Swedish and French help and learnings). First LCA flight in 2001. It is no 2021 and they do not have a full combat capable squadron (just IOC squadron).

That is how bad this programme is


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> It's actually good for us that they feed their masses this BS. Means they will never have a real onus to try and really achieve anything.
> 
> Sweden with population of 10 million made a jet quickly with US engine, sold it to 6 countries. First flight was in 1989, first batch of 110 planes ordered in 1992, first full combat squadron First full combat squadron in 1997.
> 
> Now compare that with India (who had Swedish and French help and learnings). First LCA flight in 2001. It is no 2021 and they do not have a full combat capable squadron (just IOC squadron).
> 
> That is how bad this programme is


Does Tejas have a MAWs.
Someone was saying it doesnt
I refuse to believe that it doesnt has one
Because every 4th gen fighter has it
Gripen has 6, jf17 4

Its basic part of self protection

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Here's a brochure for the Elta EL 8212/8222 Wide Band EW jammer pod that will be a key part of the EW suite of the Tejas Mk1A. It is already integrated with the Elta 2052 AESA radar, being a product of the same company. One damn good piece of EW Self protection jammer kit.
> 
> EL 8212/8222 WB SPJ


IMO lack of integrated self protection kit and MAWs is going to be big downfall of LCA as compared to contemporary fighters like Gripen

this also means that cost will further go up when buying these pods

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## Ali_Baba

ziaulislam said:


> IMO lack of integrated self protection kit and MAWs is going to be big downfall of LCA as compared to contemporary fighters like Gripen
> 
> this also means that cost will further go up when buying these pods



External pods affect the dynamis of the platform alot as the Tejas is a small aircraft, also that means it cannot be internally mounted as they have obviously run out of internal mounting space. The decision to make it as "small as it is", has turned out to be flawed as you cannot place as many systems on it as you need for the modern era. It could have been a briliant decision when they made that decision, and had they kept to schedule, they coud have for a period of time achieved some miitary capability and supremacy before it became obsolete. In the era of WVR, a small fighter with a high TWR would have been a challenge to any contempory platform in that era. Poor project execution and delivery has meant they have missed out of the benefit of their decisions.

It is starting to show how it is a 30+ design paradigm that reflects its ancestry and how that design paradigm was for a different warfighing approach( of WVR dogfights ) than what is now the normal.

Tejas is a very old concept that has taken so long to come to reality, that it is actually obsolete now ... that is why they have the scramble for Mk1A as they have realised it etc ... there is no getting away from a set of decisions made at inception that have not aged well !!!!

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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> External pods affect the dynamis of the platform alot as the Tejas is a small aircraft, also that means it cannot be internally mounted as they have obviously run out of internal mounting space. The decision to make it as "small as it is", has turned out to be flawed as you cannot place as many systems on it as you need for the modern era. It could have been a briliant decision when they made that decision, and had they kept to schedule, they coud have for a period of time achieved some miitary capability and supremacy before it became obsolete. In the era of WVR, a small fighter with a high TWR would have been a challenge to any contempory platform in that era. Poor project execution and delivery has meant they have missed out of the benefit of their decisions.
> 
> It is starting to show how it is a 30+ design paradigm that reflects its ancestry and how that design paradigm was for a different warfighing approach( of WVR dogfights ) than what is now the normal.
> 
> Tejas is a very old concept that has taken so long to come to reality, that it is actually obsolete now ... that is why they have the scramble for Mk1A as they have realised it etc ... there is no getting away from a set of decisions made at inception that have not aged well !!!!


LCA should have been scrapped by 2005 and instead MWF/mk2 or gripen should have been choosen

But anyway MAWs and wing tip mounted sensors dont take place

My guess it is cost savig measure not space saving measure

Gripen a/b c was better then LCA both use same engine


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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> LCA should have been scrapped by 2005 and instead MWF/mk2 or gripen should have been choosen
> 
> But anyway MAWs and wing tip mounted sensors dont take place
> 
> My guess it is cost savig measure not space saving measure
> 
> Gripen a/b c was better then LCA both use same engine




Yes, spot on. Basically India have managed to make a Gripen a full 30 years after the Swedes did it. Mark my words, there will be massive delays as MK1A will run into problems as well if HAL's track record is any indicator. Would not be surprised if MK1As were still being delivered to the Indian Air Force 20 years from now, literally when PAF Block II JF-17s and F-16s will be being phased out

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter SP-23 landing after it's first flight yesterday.








ziaulislam said:


> Does Tejas have a MAWs.
> Someone was saying it doesnt
> I refuse to believe that it doesnt has one
> Because every 4th gen fighter has it
> Gripen has 6, jf17 4
> 
> Its basic part of self protection



Tejas lacks MAWS. But so does Gripen C/D.

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## Yasser76

...

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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> This is the most Indian response ever. "It's OK, we are incompetent, but so is some foreigner too, so it's OK".



Funny when a Pakistani talks about competence. someone whose nation’s technical competence lies in specifying to the Chinese what they want on the JF-17. Since Pakistanis have 0% contribution with ANY part or technology on the JF-17. 0%. Just lots of green paint.

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Funny when a Pakistani talks about competence. someone whose nation’s technical competence lies in specifying to the Chinese what they want on the JF-17. Since Pakistanis have 0% contribution with ANY part or technology on the JF-17. 0%. Just lots of green paint.


i know ...you led the JOINT venture project


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## KapitaanAli

Members are being too general when they talk about MAWS. When you bring up different fighters, you've to specity the capabilities of respective MAWS. Ignoring very few exceptions, MAWS on fighter jets are highly overrated and is mostly useful against shoulder fired missiles, if that's the nature of your main adversary.

This is why it's not a priority for IAF, unlike the Army with their ALH choppers.

Su30 MKI currently lacks MAWS too. The MAWS under integration for it is an IR/Dual Colour version which can be useful, but with high False Alarm Rate.

Pod will do until MAWS gets better tech, perhaps aimed at ramjet and such. Pod also gives modularity when better MAWS are available. Also note that Mk1 already has an extra hardpoint for this purpose.

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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> i know ...you led the JOINT venture project


I don't want to derail the Tejas thread with JF-17 discussions, but since you guys troll on and on about Tejas and how indigenous it is and so on, please do enlighten us on how much of the JF-17 was developed by Pakistan. 

If you know that there are parts of the JF-17 developed in Pakistan, please do share the list. Or forget a list, maybe just 1 part or technology? 

I know you'll have no answer just as many others have not had any answer ever since they've been calling it a JV.

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## MirageBlue

TEDBF probably will deserve a thread of it's own, but here is the latest TEDBF model from an interview with the PD, TEDBF program.






From the interview

As formal OR (Operational Requirements) from Indian Navy came out in May 2020, and based on the OR, ADA had finalized on 2 possible configurations for TEDBF. They are continued to be worked on. 

1 - Delta with close coupled canards (as the model shows)
2 - Trapezoidal with tail (based on the LCA Navy Mk2 single engine design)

Delta canard configuration is going into the Low Speed Wind Tunnel testing soon. The requirements that the IN has put in terms of carrier suitability, point performance requirements, mission performance requirements, all taken into consideration in working out this delta canard configuration. IN will share it's PSQRs after ADA and IN go over the 2 designs and how they meet the Operational Requirements (OR). After that they will go ahead with one of the designs.


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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> I don't want to derail the Tejas thread with JF-17


One country (country 1) needed an aircraft badly but had hardly any options. Another country (country 2) with adequate know how offered them assistance. Country one sent its team to country 2 to lay down the QRs. That is where it’s contribution ended. It just laid down the QRs. Not one bit more since it didn’t have any technical capability whatsoever. Country 2 developed the aircraft and country 1 started assembling the same from the kits supplied by country 2.

Country 2 in its magnanimity allowed the usage of word “JOINT”. Country 1 became a tiger on that day and decided to call itself equal to any other country with a capability to develop an aircraft,.

By this criteria India should call SU-30 a joint aircraft since its role is much bigger than that of country 1 in developing this joint aircraft. 😀😀

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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> One country (country 1) needed an aircraft badly but had hardly any options. Another country (country 2) with adequate know how offered them assistance. Country one sent its team to country 2 to lay down the QRs. That is where it’s contribution ended. It just laid down the QRs. Not one bit more since it didn’t have any technical capability whatsoever. Country 2 developed the aircraft and country 1 started assembling the same from the kits supplied by country 2.
> 
> Country 2 in its magnanimity allowed the usage of word “JOINT”. Country 1 became a tiger on that day and decided to call itself equal to any other country with a capability to develop an aircraft,.
> 
> By this criteria India should call SU-30 a joint aircraft since its role is much bigger than that of country 1 in developing this joint aircraft. 😀😀



We already know that, don't we. Also, PLAAF didn't ever operationalize the fighter, despite it being cost effective. What does that tell you about the fighter? That it was purely an export fighter for China. 

The thing I find ironic is how is it that they don't see it? Do they genuinely believe that assembling a fighter from kits or even raw materials is the same as designing and developing a fighter on one's own?

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> TEDBF probably will deserve a thread of it's own, but here is the latest TEDBF model from an interview with the PD, TEDBF program.
> ...



It already has and since both projects are IMO no longer a Tejas I can only suggest to continue all TEDBF stuff here:

Yes. This is TEDBF: Explained How it is different from MWF-AF | Pakistan Defence


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## ziaulislam

VkdIndian said:


> One country (country 1) needed an aircraft badly but had hardly any options. Another country (country 2) with adequate know how offered them assistance. Country one sent its team to country 2 to lay down the QRs. That is where it’s contribution ended. It just laid down the QRs. Not one bit more since it didn’t have any technical capability whatsoever. Country 2 developed the aircraft and country 1 started assembling the same from the kits supplied by country 2.
> 
> Country 2 in its magnanimity allowed the usage of word “JOINT”. Country 1 became a tiger on that day and decided to call itself equal to any other country with a capability to develop an aircraft,.
> 
> By this criteria India should call SU-30 a joint aircraft since its role is much bigger than that of country 1 in developing this joint aircraft. 😀😀


One country throwed a billion dollars around to develop jet with assitance of many countries but FORGOt to set the requirements 

Resulting in nothing after 30 years

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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> The thing I find ironic is how is it that they don't see it?


Seeing something and registering it are two different things. A lot of things right in front eyes are not registered by mind if the person is preoccupied with something.

What are these trolls preoccupied with?
It’s hate that affects objective and clear thinking.

Coming to their assessment about Tejas. In their heart they know that it is at the cusp of breakthrough and finally about to make big. Their multiple negative comments are nothing but a hope that it might still fail. As they they say when a lie is repeated thousand times it can sound and feel like a truth. So hope it is, in the minds of all adversaries.

LCA MK I even with multiple concessions as quoted by CAG was as capable as JF MKI but a little better. But not one of them would accept it. They don’t have a CAG to point these out. So it boils down to you said vs I said.

JF was inducted in large numbers and is operational. So one thumbs up to them in believing in something and going steadfastly with it. I wouldn’t want to go into the aspect of options available etc. That is a different argument altogether.

At this juncture it has become a troll fest since there were implementation issues with LCA project. That is what gives ammunition to nay sayers.
If HAL, DRDO, IAF and other players have really learnt the lesson and worked to overcome it then by end of 2021 a lot of them would go silent.

If HAL fails to deliver on what it promised then sentiments and national pride aside I wouldn’t mind accepting a shortfall.

Till then good luck to trolls for troll fest and HAL to make good it’s promises.

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## VkdIndian

Deino said:


> all TEDBF stuff here:


The link doesn’t seem to be working.


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## Deino

VkdIndian said:


> The link doesn’t seem to be working.




Yes I noticed too, that someone deleted this thread? But I don't know why since this was the only thread for this type, whereas we have multiple threads for other types.

Maybe @The Eagle can help?


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## VkdIndian

Deino said:


> But I don't know why since


A separate thread sounds right since it is a different aircraft amd not just a different version. I hope thread gets created soon.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Yes I noticed too, that someone deleted this thread? But I don't know why since this was the only thread for this type, whereas we have multiple threads for other types.
> 
> Maybe @The Eagle can help?



Findings were based upon an opinion, redirecting the user to another forum. . . a propaganda .org to be precisely. WE don't allow such links, hence, deleted.

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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> Findings were based upon an opinion, redirecting the user to another forum. . . a propaganda .org to be precisely. WE don't allow such links, hence, deleted.



But this is based on the first post ... and now all other posts are gone too???

But that does not mean the topic itself is forbidden?


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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> But this is based on the first post ... and now all other posts are gone too.
> 
> But that does not mean the topic itself is forbidden?


Here is the video link along with screen grab from you post on the same thread. We cannot allow such a link. The subject may continue here. That thread had only 6 posts including following discussion.


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## Indos



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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk2 program updates

Tejas Mk2 updates

- Feb 2020 was when Tejas Mk2 was nearing the PDR just before lockdown.
- During lockdown, the team of Tejas Mk2 worked on the outcome of PDR.
- After the PDR was crossed, they started working on Detailed Design activities.
- Configuration is frozen and Inboards finalized.
- Also, lot of effort put towards maintanability assessment of various systems.
- Today at CDR stage, initiated some of the sub systems CDR.
- And now progressing towards drawing release.
- Some of the specific parts, metal cutting has already started
- Final stage of finalizing the cockpit configuration.
- Sensors and antennae locations finalized, masking studies have been completed for various antennae.
- Drawing release process has been finalized.
- The procurement of raw materials and availability assessment has been completed.
- Various systems design reviews have been completed and detailed design has been initiated and moving towards Critical Design Review.
- Also started the finalization of ESOP (Equipment Standard of Preparation) for the first flight.
- Right now the team is focusing on the completion of the Detailed Design and taking up the aircraft level CDR and going ahead with metal cutting and moving towards assembling the aircraft and next year August to have a rollout of the first Tejas Mk2.
- Features of the Tejas Mk2 include reduced drag which has reduced the transonic acceleration time, IRST, MAWS, Advanced EW suite with internal jammer and RWR, CMDS.
- Weapons will include western weapons, Russian and Indian weapons.
- Feasibility studies have been completed on various weapons integration with the Tejas Mk2. Scalp, Crystal Maze, Spice 1000, Astra, Rudram 1, 2, 3, indigenous bombs, Nirbhay ALCM and Brahmos NG.
- Standoff weaponry to allow targeting from more than 570 km range.
- There will he hardpoints that are designed to be able to carry 1800 kgs of weapons

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## MirageBlue

From Twitter link



> Aero India'21 update R Madhavan HAL: “AESA radar config finalised on LCA Mk.1A is different from AESA radar on Jaguar Darin III. Both radars will be manufactured at Avionics Div HYD under Transfer of Tech. However, Uttam radar dev by LRDE is also under trial with the LCA”



Elta 2052 to be manufactured in India, but the configuration is different. Likely refers to the power output and the number of Transmit/Receive modules on the Tejas Mk1A being much higher than that of the Jaguar which has a much smaller diameter nose and radome.

Nice shot of an IAF Jaguar..could be a Jaguar IM Maritime Strike variant with the older Elta 2032 radar or a newer Jaguar IS DARIN 3 with the Elta 2052 radar. Can't say for sure without the serial number





From Twitter, link



> Stay-tuned to the #unsung heroes building our #Tejas. From the hangars of #HAL's Aircraft Division, the 2nd production line. And, on Feb 2, Def Min will inaugurate the much-awaited 3rd line boosting the production, finally.



Third assembly line for the manufacture of Tejas fighters and trainers to be inaugurated by the Defence Minister on Feb 2. Initially will be dedicated to building the 18 Tejas trainers on order. Then will transition to the Tejas Mk1A.

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## MirageBlue

Times of India is reporting that the third and new assembly line to be inaugurated by the Defence Minister tomorrow will eventually have the capacity to build 16 Tejas fighters/trainers per year. 

Currently there are 2 assembly lines for the Tejas in operation:

1- LCA Division - which can produce 5 Tejas fighters per year
2- HAL Aircraft Division - which can produce 3 Tejas fighters per year

They will continue building the remaining SP fighters for the No.18 Squadron. SP-25 is going to have it's first flight in 2-3 weeks as per Anantha Krishnans' report. 

Now, with the third one at Doddanekundi, the plan is to build the 18 Tejas trainers first and then transition to building Tejas Mk1A fighters there. At full capacity, it'll be able to build 16 Tejas jets per year, so theoretically upto 24 Tejas Mk1A fighters can be built if an export order materializes. 

Overall, 50,000 jobs have been estimated to have been created by the LCA program to date. And 5000 new jobs will be created at the over 560 suppliers to the Tejas Mk1A program. 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...al-readies-3rd-plant/articleshow/80618697.cms

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## MirageBlue

WOW!! The Indian Navy's TEDBF is finally unveiled! Or at least 1 of the 2 configurations being studied

DSI intakes, which have been developed for the AMCA (and yes development is complete) are to be used on the TEDBF too. Strangely, no IRST as yet, which is now confirmed for the Tejas Mk2. Probably will be specified by the IN a later date.

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## MirageBlue

TEDBF with close coupled canards and delta wings from the front

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> TEDBF with close coupled canards and delta wings from the front




There si now a dedicated thread for the TEDBF and since it is no-Tejas anymore anyway I suggest to stop posting TEDBF stuff in the Tejas-thread.









Twin Engined Deck Based Fighter [TEDBF] Development | Updates & Discussions.


Why would india test a single engine fighter for deck landings when no country on earth has ever deployed single jet engined fighter from an aircraft carrier? ?? Because they want to gain information before finalizing TEDBF's design and components ... And understand the rigors that Naval...



defence.pk


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## MirageBlue

The Defence Minister Rajnath Singh inaugurated the 3rd LCA Tejas assembly line at Doddanekundi in Bangalore.

Twitter link



> Inaugurated the HAL's new LCA-Tejas Production Line in Bengaluru today. Under the ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyan’ India is looking forward to increase its defence manufacturing capabilities. India cannot remain dependent on other countries for its defence.

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## MirageBlue

3 Tejas Mk1 fighters from No.45 Squadron flying over Bangalore's Aero India show

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## Mrc

Tejas models currently under development 

Tejas (Limited production and serial limited production) 

Tejas iOc initial operation clearance has basically wings cockpit and engine. 16 built

Tejas foc final operation clearance 2 built 

Tejas 1.. Has some of features not in FOC
Tejas 1a. May fly in 2023
Tejas 2 is on drawing board with canards

Tejas naval has been changed to a. New toy model with DSI and a new name twin engine carier based fighter. 


Did I miss any?


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## HostileInsurgent

Mrc said:


> Tejas models currently under development
> 
> Tejas (Limited production and serial limited production)
> 
> Tejas iOc initial operation clearance has basically wings cockpit and engine. 16 built
> 
> Tejas foc final operation clearance 2 built
> 
> Tejas 1.. Has some of features not in FOC
> Tejas 1a. May fly in 2023
> Tejas 2 is on drawing board with canards
> 
> Tejas naval has been changed to a. New toy model with DSI and a new name twin engine carier based fighter.
> 
> 
> Did I miss any?


Tejas MK1 under production
Tejas MK1A development complete, order to be given tomorrow on AeroIndia show.
Tejas MK2 under development

TEDBF is all together a different aircraft under development.

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## Mrc

HostileInsurgent said:


> Tejas MK1 under production
> Tejas MK1A development complete, order to be given tomorrow on AeroIndia show.
> Tejas MK2 under development
> 
> TEDBF is all together a different aircraft under development.



1a had a test flight?


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## MirageBlue

Mrc said:


> 1a had a test flight?



Mk1A is not a new type altogether, rather an upgrade of AESA, EW suite, new DFCC, new SMFDs, some avionics, some LRUs and improved maintainability. 

BVRAAM testing is already done for the FOC Tejas Mk1. As is air to air refueling. 

So no new Mk1A prototypes will be built. They are rather just upgrading existing Mk1 Limited Series Production prototypes with Mk1A features and testing them out.

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## HostileInsurgent

Mrc said:


> 1a had a test flight?


Nah as it is the same as JF-17 Block-3 wrt JF-17 Block-2, just avionics upgrade, hence no prototypes, direct production.

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## Mrc

First jf 3 had test flights for whole year or more. 

Secondly u will change radar to aesa with same engine and go into mass production wothout a test flight 

That's fantastic 

Successful project is written all over this already it seems

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## anathema

Mrc said:


> First jf 3 had test flights for whole year or more.
> 
> Secondly u will change radar to aesa with same engine and go into mass production wothout a test flight
> 
> That's fantastic
> 
> Successful project is written all over this already it seems



1. AESA has already been tested on other IAF fighters - so IAF knows what to expect. This will be validated during some prelim flights.
2. Platform is not changing. So flight characteristics and flight envelope remains the same. So no testing is required for flight envelope
3. Certification is required for avionics and other subsystems - these are already been conducted in simulators. Sure there will be some prelim flights to cross verify avioniocs and sub systems - but this cannot be equated to flight regime envelope

JF3 as far as i know - is having a engine change with a uprated engine. That requires undergoing through the complete flight testing regime. It will be the case for Mk2.

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## Mrc

anathema said:


> 1. AESA has already been tested on other IAF fighters - so IAF knows what to expect. This will be validated during some prelim flights.
> 2. Platform is not changing. So flight characteristics and flight envelope remains the same. So no testing is required for flight envelope
> 3. Certification is required for avionics and other subsystems - these are already been conducted in simulators. Sure there will be some prelim flights to cross verify avioniocs and sub systems - but this cannot be equated to flight regime envelope
> 
> JF3 as far as i know - is having a engine change with a uprated engine. That requires undergoing through the complete flight testing regime. It will be the case for Mk2.




Still having couple of prototypes shud have been considered. What's the rush?

Engine change on jft is due to aesa


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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356480827589337088India is M-B's second largest market
Entered India in 1951!

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## Mighty Lion

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356823498862170112

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## Anik101

Tejas mk1 equipped with DRDO's Uttam AESA radar at Aero India..

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## KapitaanAli

This will remain one of my favourites.

LCA Mk1 with the B1B Lancer:

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## MirageBlue

Anik101 said:


> Tejas mk1 equipped with DRDO's Uttam AESA radar at Aero India..
> View attachment 713118



Finally! We see the Tejas Mk1 LSP 03 prototype that is equipped with the Uttam AESA radar. There were trolls who didn't believe that this was actually true. They've already conducted several dozens of flights with the LSP-03 with Uttam AESA for testing air to air, air to sea and air to ground functions.
This graphic illustrates just how much of the Tejas is now being outsourced to private industry. This 83 unit order for 73 Tejas Mk1A and 10 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers will energise this industry like nothing else could possibly have.

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## MirageBlue

Mrc said:


> First jf 3 had test flights for whole year or more.
> 
> Secondly u will change radar to aesa with same engine and go into mass production wothout a test flight
> 
> That's fantastic
> 
> Successful project is written all over this already it seems



Chill. Let the professionals handle it rather than internet warriors with no clue on how anything is to be done.

HAL is not just integrating but also building the Elta 2052 AESA under license in India. They have already done it for the Jaguar DARIN 3 upgrade which also features the Elta 2052 radar, albeit a smaller set.

Who told you that engine change is required for modifying the radar from MSA to AESA? Lol..

And they already ARE conducting flight tests for systems that will go on the Mk1A. They'll continue with the 2 prototypes of the Mk1 modified with Mk1A systems for the next 2 years for all the systems to be qualified and certified.

So relax, we'll manage this.

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## MirageBlue

HAL's Atma-nirbhar formation over Yelahanka for Aero India 2021







Hawk-i, HTT-40, Tejas Mk1, HTT-40 and HJT-36 Sitara.

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## HostileInsurgent

Mrc said:


> Secondly u will change radar to aesa with same engine and go into mass production wothout a test flight
> 
> That's fantastic


Who said no test flight? I said no prototype will be made For testing as existing Tejas Tech demonstrators will be upgraded for testing.


Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356480827589337088India is M-B's second largest market
> Entered India in 1951!


Obviously because we are the 4th largest airforce and 2 in between, the Russians and Chinese never buy from MB, hence we will obviously be 2nd largest customer.


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## hembo




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## The Raven

MirageBlue said:


> HAL's Atma-nirbhar formation over Yelahanka for Aero India 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawk-i, HTT-40, Tejas Mk1, HTT-40 and HJT-36 Sitara.



The Sitara is *still not* in service yet...development started in *1997!!!* Last I heard, it had problems with passing spin control trials and BAE was bought in as a "consultant" to sort out the issues.


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## proud_indian

The Raven said:


> The Sitara is *still not* in service yet...development started in *1997!!!* Last I heard, it had problems with passing spin control trials and BAE was bought in as a "consultant" to sort out the issues.



Yes it was in the cold box but after the success of HTT-40, they have revamped the project and hired *Bihrle Applied Research *as a consultant to resolve the problem and came up with modified solution you can see in the pic below

And its spin and recovery tests are going on for last couple of months

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## MirageBlue

The Raven said:


> The Sitara is *still not* in service yet...development started in *1997!!!* Last I heard, it had problems with passing spin control trials and BAE was bought in as a "consultant" to sort out the issues.



The GoI awarded the contract to BEGIN design and development of the HJT-36 Sitara in 1999, not 1997. It was after that contract that work started at HAL.

Things started off very promisingly and Limited Series Production jets were even built in 2010. There were issues with the change in engine from the French Larzac to the Russian AL-555I which led to a lot of troubles. In hindsight, it probably wasn't the best decision to change the engine.

After the engine issues were overcome, there were serious concerns during spin trials and that derailed the program. Consultation was taken with a foreign firm to re-design it and that has taken a few years. It has been re-designed extensively, with a new larger rudder and longer tail to increase the moment arm for the rudder. Plus, ventral fins have also been added for improved longitudinal stability.

The updated design has been in the air since a few months now. Already done 1 turn spin and will be progressively taken to the full 6 turn spin that is required of it. If it clears those trials, there is nothing major pending of the program and it should be ordered to replace the large numbers of Kiran Mk2 trainers in IAF service. Pilots will train on it before graduating to the Hawk AJT.

Great shot of the modified HJT-36 Sitara by Angad Singh, flying over Bangalore during Aero India 2021

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter at Aero India

SP-17, the first fighter that was handed over to No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets'






Meanwhile HAL is now looking at the possibility of exports for the Tejas Mk1A. Price being quoted is Rs 309 crore flyaway for the fighter and Rs 280 crore for the Tejas Mk1 FOC trainer.

India looking at Tejas exports at Rs 309 crore per aircraft- HAL Chairman

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## MirageBlue

Details of the Indian LRDE Uttam AESA radar that has been test flown on the Tejas Mk1 LSP-02 and LSP-03

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## MirageBlue

New AESA based Self-Protection Jammer Pod being developed by DARE. It will likely find it's way onto the Tejas Mk1A after being certified. 





Couple of Flying Daggers' Tejas Mk1 flying during Aero India

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## air marshal




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## Farhan Bohra

air marshal said:


>


You don't even know how to pronounce an aircraft name which you claiming to do analysis on it based on your research. 

The first basic principle of doing research is to pronounce the thing right on which you doing it. So please make fool of someone else, 

It is not even worth the time to counter reply to it.

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## Andhadhun

Bangladesh Air Force chief Moshiuzamn Serniabat took a sortie on Indian HAL Tejas fighter Jet today.

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## MirageBlue

HAL and DRDO sign an MoU for Uttam AESA radar Transfer of Technology and also for new generation digital RWR (RWR-NG) for the new Tejas configurations which will include Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF. Will also find it's way onto the AMCA.




> An MoU has been exchanged between DRDO and HAL to cooperate and finalise the aspects of ToTs of Uttam radar for new LCA configurations and new generation Radar Warning Receiver (RWR-NG).









Also has been revealed that the Tejas Mk1 flying with the Uttam has 780 T/R modules. The Tejas Mk2 has a smaller radome than that of the Tejas Mk1A due to having to fit the IRST behind it, but it will have 992 T/R modules due to an improved design of the Uttam AESA radar.


Andhadhun said:


> Bangladesh Air Force chief Moshiuzamn Serniabat took a sortie on Indian HAL Tejas fighter Jet today.



Bangladesh Air Force Chief flying in the Tejas trainer PV6






Twitter link

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## anathema

MirageBlue said:


> HAL and DRDO sign an MoU for Uttam AESA radar Transfer of Technology and also for new generation digital RWR (RWR-NG) for the new Tejas configurations which will include Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF. Will also find it's way onto the AMCA.



SO Mk1A has uttam or 2052 ? I assume its 2052.


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## MirageBlue

anathema said:


> SO Mk1A has uttam or 2052 ? I assume its 2052.



Elta 2052 AESA for at least the first 20 fighters. After that it depends on whether the Uttam AESA is certified and ready with ToT done to HAL. A MoU was signed between HAL and DRDO for ToT on Uttam AESA so they can assemble the radar, just as there is a contract for HAL to assemble the Elta 2052 under license from IAI.
From IAF's Twitter account

Twitter link



> Look at the world from a different angle, change the perspective. Tejas Is Smart. Be Like Tejas.
> 
> #IndianAirForce

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## Andhadhun

Tejas Production Floor,

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## dr.knowhow

Talking about avionics, I would like to ask why the Uttam radars are manufactured by HAL. This is very rare even for a developing country. In most of the cases, there always exist a separate company from the system integration manufacturer, in India's case HAL, who only manufactures specific components like avionics.

For example, that's Aselsan in Turkey's case. For Europe it's usually companies like Thales or BAE, for US it's Raytheon, BAE or avionics division of NG or LM that are strictly separate from the aeronautics division.

It's not like India doesn't have such company. AFAIK a lot of military electronics are developed and manufactured by BEL. Why aren't they in charge of Uttam as well?

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## KapitaanAli

dr.knowhow said:


> Talking about avionics, I would like to ask why the Uttam radars are manufactured by HAL. This is very rare even for a developing country. In most of the cases, there always exist a separate company from the system integration manufacturer, in India's case HAL, who only manufactures specific components like avionics.
> 
> For example, that's Aselsan in Turkey's case. For Europe it's usually companies like Thales or BAE, for US it's Raytheon, BAE or avionics division of NG or LM that are strictly separate from the aeronautics division.
> 
> It's not like India doesn't have such company. AFAIK a lot of military electronics are developed and manufactured by BEL. Why aren't they in charge of Uttam as well?


In fact BEL currently manufactures modules for Rafale's AESA. I don't think this is controversial though. HAL Avionics will manufacture ELTA 2052 as well, before UTTAM.

Streamlining isn't an Indian thing. But things will come into place in due time.

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## dr.knowhow

KapitaanAli said:


> In fact BEL currently manufactures modules for Rafale's AESA. I don't think this is controversial though. HAL Avionics will manufacture ELTA 2052 as well, before UTTAM.
> 
> Streamlining isn't an Indian thing. But things will come into place in due time.



Yeah, I've seen this diagram :





so it should mean that the Indian authorities have felt the necessity to keep HAL only to do what other western aircraft manufacturers do, which is airframe manufacturing and system integration.

Ideally they could carry out a corporate spin off for avionics division of HAL and make it a subsidiary, just like how NG aeronautic systems is separate from NG mission systems. Also just like what you've suggested, they could streamline the structure in the process by merging two separate avionics division, each in Hyderabad and Korwa, into one for better management structure.

Well I'm not the one who decides, let alone I'm not an Indian but those are the things which comes into my mind to promote more efficiency.

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## Mrc

Andhadhun said:


> Tejas Production Floor,




Why is there a fully painted jet on production floor?


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## KapitaanAli

Mrc said:


> Why is there a fully painted jet on production floor?


The one in picture is SP19 which flew last month fully painted. Just silly logistical/final touch up matters before first flight or handing over.


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## MirageBlue

Mrc said:


> Why is there a fully painted jet on production floor?



Because even after being rolled out of the production hangar, painted and flown, they can be sent back there for any fixes, maintenance etc. till the 2 Customer Acceptance Flights are completed and the IAF accepts them.


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## MirageBlue

Uttam AESA radar to replace the Elta 2052 from 21st Tejas Mk1A onwards. Only 20 Elta 2052 AESA radars will be ordered and then onwards they will switch to the Uttam AESA. 

DRDO says that the Uttam AESA radar has performed even better than was anticipated. It will only improve on the Tejas Mk2 and will definitely now be the front-runner for the Super-30 upgrade. 

Also, it's confirmed from LRDE Director that Terrain Avoidance mode to be included for the Uttam AESA. This will allow very low level navigation flights like those that Rafale can carry out in pitch darkness, with the RBE2 AESA.

2 LCAs (LSP-2 and LSP-3) are currently being used for conducting trials of the Uttam. 


Self reliance- 1 in 2 Tejas fighters to have indigenous AESA radars



> BENGALURU: In a major boost to indigenous defence technologies, at least 51% of the 123 LCA Tejas fighters that will be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) will have the desi Uttam radar, replacing Israeli radars that the first batch of aircraft will be equipped with.
> 
> In all, IAF will get 123 Tejas fighters: 40 in initial and final operational clearance (IOC and FOC) configurations and 83 Tejas Mk1A, orders for which were placed in the first week of February. While the first 40 will have mechanical radars (all Israeli), 83 Mk-1A planes will have Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars ..
> 
> “We will have the Uttam radar from the 21st Tejas Mk-1A to be produced. Uttam has performed better than anticipated in the trials so far. We’ve already signed an MoU with HAL,” DRDO
> chairman Sateesh Reddy told TOI.
> 
> This means 63 of the 83 will be indigenous Uttam radars developed by LRDE (Electronics and Radar Development Establishment), a DRDO lab in Bengaluru. The TOI had reported in 2019 that Uttam radars were likely to replace the AESA radars — the EL/M 2052
> 
> R Madhavan, CMD, HAL, which is producing Tejas, said: “ That is what we are panning for. Given the delivery timelines we’ve committed to, we will place orders for 20 Israeli radars and Uttam should be ready thereafter. We are targetting to increase indigenous content in Tejas to 62% to 65%, and this will help achieving that.”
> 
> Uttam is a state-of-the-art AESA radar that can track multiple targets and take hi-resolution pictures to aid in reconnaissance. Seshagiri P, project director, Uttam, said it’s being tested on two LCAs — LSP2 and LSP3 — and one executive jet. Together they’ve completed around 230 hours of flying, including 30 on LCAs.
> *
> “On the LCAs, testing is for air-to-air mode at present. The range of the radar should be almost commensurate to launch a BVR (beyond visual range) weapon; it’s specified to be so. But we’re getting a range that’s better than that. We are a couple of sorties away from starting a joint evaluation. After this, it will be ready for user evaluation,” Seshagiri told TOI.*
> 
> On the executive jet, Uttam’s tested three basic modes — air-to-air, air-to-sea and air-to-ground. “...The same needs to be ported on LCA and checked for performance. There’s a fourth mode called navigation terrain avoidance, weather mode (rain bearing clouds),” Seshagiri added.

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## Raj-Hindustani

MirageBlue said:


> Uttam AESA radar to replace the Elta 2052 from 21st Tejas Mk1A onwards. Only 20 Elta 2052 AESA radars will be ordered and then onwards they will switch to the Uttam AESA.
> 
> DRDO says that the Uttam AESA radar has performed even better than was anticipated. It will only improve on the Tejas Mk2 and will definitely now be the front-runner for the Super-30 upgrade.
> 
> Also, it's confirmed from LRDE Director that Terrain Avoidance mode to be included for the Uttam AESA. This will allow very low level navigation flights like those that Rafale can carry out in pitch darkness, with the RBE2 AESA.
> 
> 2 LCAs (LSP-2 and LSP-3) are currently being used for conducting trials of the Uttam.
> 
> Self reliance- 1 in 2 Tejas fighters to have indigenous AESA radars



What are the range of both Radars?


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## MirageBlue

Raj-Hindustani said:


> What are the range of both Radars?



Uttam was believed to have a 150 km range against 2 sqm target as per reports nearly 2 years ago. If it has been performing even better than anticipated, it must've improved on this. And that's with 780 T/R modules on the Uttam that is fit on the Tejas LSP-2, 3 and then on Mk1A.

The Tejas Mk2 will get a larger Uttam AESA array with 990 T/R modules, despite the radome being 23 cm smaller than on the Tejas Mk1, to accomodate the IRST. The Tejas Mk2 with the F-414 will have more power available on board to power the radar and the liquid cooling that is required.

Remember, Liquid Cooling improves the performance of an AESA radar significantly over Air cooled ones such as the AESA selected for the JF-17 Blk3. So basically the Elta 2052 and Uttam will both possess far better performance than the Air cooled AESA of the JF-17 Blk 3.

AESA thermal management



> In the ’70s, radar systems had low heat flux and could generally be managed by blowing air over the heated surfaces. By the ’90s, heat fluxes had increased enough to where air cooling was oftentimes no longer sufficient, prompting engineers to turn to closed-loop single-phase cooling systems using fluids such as Coolanol and mixtures of Ethylene Glycol and Water (EGW) or Propylene Glycol and Water (PGW).
> *
> Although more complex and expensive from a system perspective, single-phase cooling systems have orders of magnitude greater capacity to remove waste heat as compared to air cooling. In aerospace applications, the advantage of liquid cooling over air cooling is amplified because of the decreasing density of air with altitude. For instance, a constant speed cooling fan at a 35,000 foot altitude delivers an air mass flow rate that is approximately 40 percent of the flow rate it can provide at sea level, greatly limiting the cooling capacity of the system.
> *
> Today, single-phase liquid cooling is well understood and is already in use on many military platforms including the F-22 and F-35.

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## MirageBlue

Interview with Dr Girish Deodhare, Director of ADA. Worth watching for all the information he shares.

Youtube link

*He talks about incredibly unstable the Tejas LCA is @ 6:35 mark..This is why the Tejas is so maneuverable. The incredible instability means without FBW, it cannot be controlled.

Time to double - 200 milliseconds

"What that means is if you get a perturbation (movement) of 1 degree, in 200 millseconds, it doubles to 2 degrees. So effectively in 1 second, it can grow from 1 degree to 32 degrees. So this is the kind of instability this aircraft has".

No wonder the Instantaneous Turn Rate and the Roll Rate on the Tejas is simply superb. Will be eye-watering performance for a pilot.*

~90% of the wetted area of the Tejas is composites and 45% by weight is also composites, which is most likely the highest of any fighter aircraft in the world.

On the Naval LCA Mk1, this interview tells you why it was so challenging with more than 500 landings and 50 take-offs from the Shore Based Test Facility in Goa..and finally what a success it was! 18 traps on INS Vikramaditya and not a single one did it miss the arresting wire!

His confidence on the Tejas Mk2 MWF is also clear. Basically it is a consolidation of all the technologies that have been perfected on the Tejas Mk1. And he also disclosed that the wind tunnel tests have shown that the FBW can handle the canards that are being added (obviously with changes to the FBW).

*On the AMCA, he has a big smile when he says that AMCA prototype fabrication has already started and 4 parts of the AMCA prototype have already been built. 2024 rollout of the first prototype is pretty much confirmed. 2031 is the expected start of production for induction. 

And he says at the end, that all the pilots that have flown the Tejas, including Indian and foreign, have all said that it's handling qualities and it's Human Machine Interface (HMI) is one of the best. 

I've always said don't fall for the negative planted articles in the press. The Tejas LCA program is the bedrock, the very foundation of the rise of the Indian aerospace industry.*

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 in Sri Lanka, for participating in the SLAF's 70th anniversary celebrations with an aerobatics display.

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## KapitaanAli

LCA display in Sri Lanka, from 12:00 followed by Sarang ALH display:

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## KapitaanAli

LCA Mk1 with B1-B Lancer, better image:

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## Kingslayerr

KapitaanAli said:


> LCA Mk1 with B1-B Lancer, better image:
> 
> View attachment 722029


Reminds me of the image of the F22 raptor guarderd by the mighty PAF f7s. Nice image.


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 from No.45 Squadron 'Flying Daggers', flown by Grp Cpt Manish "Tolly" Tolani, who is the CO of No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets'

The Tejas display starts at 2:35 mark. A very energetic display, much better than what was done at Aero India. Tight turns, rapid rolls, vertical pull ups and the minimum radius turn within a few hundred meters.

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## MirageBlue

DRDO Chairman, Dr Satish Reddy's interview gives further confirmation that the first prototype of Tejas Mk2 is on schedule for rollout in August 2022. 

Interview link



> When are we ready for India’s next gen fighter Jets - AMCA prototype and Tejas Mk 2 (Design and Development)?
> *
> Tejas MK-II program is in advance stages of development. After completion of aircraft PDR early last year, the detailed design activities are nearing completion. Manufacturing of long lead parts has already begun and the first prototype is on schedule for rollout in August 2022. Since there are very few unknowns in the programme, activities are moving rapidly. *

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## MirageBlue

Another good video of the Tejas Mk1 display on Day 3 of the SLAF's 70th Anniversary celebrations..I don't think anyone will be saying that it's not an agile fighter after seeing this.

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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> I don't think anyone will be saying that it's not an agile fighter after seeing this.


Nope they will still say it. Just wait a moment.

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## MirageBlue

3 Tejas Mk1 fighters of No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron. Can see the squadron pilots with the Elbit DASH HMDS.







Cranked delta wing of the Tejas Mk1. The fact that the Tejas has a delta wing will hold it in good stead in the future. Delta wing aircraft are structurally very strong and tend to be able to carry loads far more efficiently with less affects of fatigue loading. The Tejas will have a pretty long life, that's for sure. 






HAL line up...all birds built by HAL.





Tejas Mk1 trainer





Tejas Mk1s of No.45 'Flying Daggers'





Another shot of the Tejas Mk1s escorting a B-1B Lancer..so damn cool!

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 takes off with HAL LUH in the foreground

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## Farhan Bohra

Tejas Mk.2 cockpit

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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> Nope they will still say it. Just wait a moment.



They will say it because it's Indian. Not because the Tejas isn't agile. 

That bias we cannot change now, can we?

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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> That bias we cannot change now, can we?


No chance of that ever.

But this view that Indian made stuff is bad can change and it does change as per convenience. Right now COVID vaccine that is Made in India and is being supplied to Pakistan has become good and of high quality.😜😜

These friends are heartbroken that Tejas has happened and more so because it is about to take an even bigger leap. 

I only hope that HAL meets its end of bargain his time.

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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> No chance of that ever.
> 
> But this view that Indian made stuff is bad can change and changes as per convenience. Right now COVID vaccine that is Made in India and is being supplied to Pakistan has become good and of high quality.😜😜
> 
> These friends are heartbroken that Tejas has happened and more so because it is about to take an even bigger leap.
> 
> I only hope that HAL meets its end of bargain his time.



Yes indeed. They've been hoping that the Tejas fails and India continues to remain reliant only on imports. But times are a changing. This decade will mark a transformation in India's aerospace capabilities. HAL is in the spotlight and by and large they have met their targets. With no Su-30MKI like license assembly to feed off, the Tejas Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA offer them the only options going forward. And I do believe the company's culture is changing somewhat..HTT-40 is a case in point.

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## MirageBlue

Farhan Bohra said:


> Tejas Mk.2 cockpit



I believe this is for the LCA twin seater being offered as the Mothership for the CATS Combat Air Teaming System program. See the link below for the video that shows the front and back seater's displays. But I would believe that a similar cockpit layout is very likely for the Tejas Mk2 as well.

Twitter link

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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> Yes indeed. They've been hoping that the Tejas fails and India continues to remain reliant only on imports. But times are a changing. This decade will mark a transformation in India's aerospace capabilities. HAL is in the spotlight and by and large they have met their targets. With no Su-30MKI like license assembly to feed off, the Tejas Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA offer them the only options going forward. And I do believe the company's culture is changing somewhat..HTT-40 is a case in point.


Actually most of the fanboys here just play to the gallery. Berating Indian stuff is the sole aim of most here. The negative views are also with a HOPE that India wouldn’t succeed in its endeavour in producing all these aircraft. 
These experts don’t know what and how much work has gone in to change the mindset. Today PSUs, Private players, The Forces and the Govt all are on the same page going full bore. Integrated Missile Development Prog under Kalam had similar thrust and focus. The results were for all to see.

Tejas is coming up wonderfully now. It is time for our dearest friends here to loose sleep.

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## The Maverick

I'm.not being biased but the Indian grey camo of tejas is amazing the plane looks stunning

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## VkdIndian

The Maverick said:


> Indian grey camo of tejas


It looks beautiful even with those patches on under production model.


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## proud_indian

The Maverick said:


> I'm.not being biased but the Indian grey camo of tejas is amazing the plane looks stunning



It looks great but I find he Navy LCA mk-1 a lot better. I just hope they do away with the present dual color scheme and paint the nose cone the same as the rest of the aircraft!

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## Lord Of Gondor

Courtesy IAF twitter handle

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 with R-73E CCMs and Derby BVRAAMs. Those R-73Es will likely be replaced by ASRAAM or if that decision drags on, then DRDO's indigenous NG-CCM which is in development.

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful fit and finish on the Tejas Mk1..as good as the Rafale next to it.

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## MirageBlue

Another shot of the Tejas Mk1 with 2 X R-73Es and 2 X Derby BVRAAMs and 3 drop tanks.

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## KapitaanAli

SP24:

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## MirageBlue

KapitaanAli said:


> SP24:
> 
> View attachment 726164



This was taken on it's first flight a couple of days ago. SP-25 and SP-26 are apparently nearing completion with first flights targeted in a month.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Tejas LSP 08
Derby BVR Missile
Archer CCM
Litening Pod
"Gasha" Cannon








Thanks to Praneeth Franklin!

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## Anik101

Sp-26

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## Anik101

In Sri Lanka


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## VkdIndian

Anik101 said:


> Sp-26


Is the production happening at the required pace and as promised by the HAL?
That remains my biggest worry w.r.t. Tejas order and it’s impact on MKII as well as other programs.


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## Andhadhun

Anik101 said:


> Sp-26



Damn ! She is a Beauty !


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## Anik101

VkdIndian said:


> Is the production happening at the required pace and as promised by the HAL?
> That remains my biggest worry w.r.t. Tejas order and it’s impact on MKII as well as other programs.


Out of 8 promised, 7 SP Tejas mk1 will be delivered by HAL by the end of April. Effect of COVID lockdown on supply chain cannot be discounted. All FOC tejas except the trainers will be delivered by next year.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Anik101 said:


> Sp-26



They only built 26 so far? Engine delivery from the US and radar delivery from Israel might be slowed due to covid.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Another superb shot of Tejas, credits to Gaurav Shetty on Twitter




From another angle, this one by Raghav Kidambi on Twitter

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## Anik101

Tai Hai Chen said:


> They only built 26 so far? Engine delivery from the US and radar delivery from Israel might be slowed due to covid.


Production line was shut for full 5 months due to covid.


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## Anik101

Naval LCA onboard INS Vikramaditya

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Another superb shot of Tejas, credits to Gaurav Shetty on Twitter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From another angle, this one by Raghav Kidambi on Twitter


What a beauty!

Just look at the build quality of the Tejas! It's superb, as good as the Typhoon and Rafale. Also clear to see that it uses a VERY high degree of composites, again one of the highest amongst all 4th gen fighters.

Having personally seen multiple Tejas LSPs from up close, the build quality was good, but it has improved a few notches after going into series production.
Tejas Mk1 with 2 Derby BVRAAMs, 2 R-73Es and 2 drop tanks undergoing some trial. This is a LSP fighter, not a Series Production fighter with the Squadrons.

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## MirageBlue

Another shot of a Tejas Mk1 with 2 Derby BVRAAMs, 2 R-73Es and 2 drop tanks during tests.






Tejas Mk1 FOC

Close up





Full image

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1 FOC
> 
> Close up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full image




Which SP is this?


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## The Maverick

MirageBlue said:


> What a beauty!
> 
> Just look at the build quality of the Tejas! It's superb, as good as the Typhoon and Rafale. Also clear to see that it uses a VERY high degree of composites, again one of the highest amongst all 4th gen fighters.
> 
> Having personally seen multiple Tejas LSPs from up close, the build quality was good, but it has improved a few notches after going into series production.
> Tejas Mk1 with 2 Derby BVRAAMs, 2 R-73Es and 2 drop tanks undergoing some trial. This is a LSP fighter, not a Series Production fighter with the Squadrons.




one word wow 
this looks like a fighter made in Europe 
and you no what it is 
why
usa engine 
israeli hmd and radar 
indian compsite technology in build 
indian quadrupled fbw 
it's a beauty

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Which SP is this?



Likely SP-24..

SP-25 and 26 flew a few days after that..both had their first flights on the same day. So with all the Covid related disruptions and closures, HAL managed to put out 6 Tejas FOC fighters for the year.
Another lovely shot of a FOC Tejas Mk1. Serial number blanked out by the photographer.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 with 2 drop tanks. This is not a SP fighter but rather a LSP prototype..can make out seeing the air intake at the base of the vertical stabilizer. See the previous post for the modified air intake that was used since LSP-5 or 6 I believe.

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## MirageBlue

Another shot of Tejas Mk1 with 2 Derby BVRAAMs, 2 R-73Es and 2 drop tanks plus 1 Litening LDP.

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## KapitaanAli

AeroIndia'21:

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## Anik101

~4 ton payload

4 x 450kg bomb
2 x Archer CCM
2 x 1200 lt. Drop tank
1 x Lightening pod





Tejas has already demonstrated > 4ton payload

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## Anik101

Formation landing cockpit video





45 Squadron








Trainer

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## MirageBlue

Nice click of SP-21 (IAF registration number LA-5017), the first FOC Tejas Mk1 that was handed over to No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron..






And these images are from AFS Sulur, in Coimbatore where the 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons are based as of now. 










Coming in to land..

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## The Maverick

what beauty guys 
best thing superb engine and israeli hmd just make it so dam reliable compared to other similar jets that rely on Smokey Russian engines,and no hmd to keep cost low and rush the product

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## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> what beauty guys
> best thing superb engine and israeli hmd just make it so dam reliable compared to other similar jets that rely on Smokey Russian engines,and no hmd to keep cost low and rush the product


Ignoring all the other nonsense you keep posting, do you know how pathetic you sound here.
Firstly what are your Fulcrum and Flankers equipped with.... and the low cost jet with Smokey Russian engine is now operating with at least three air forces and the operators have enough confidence to perform in it on every occasion.....where was your superb engine Tejas on your Republic Day....maybe they didn't find an empty trailer for it....unlike Tejas, this is what other Jet do on their Republic Day.

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## Irfan Baloch

Echo_419 said:


> Yahoo,I am the 1st one to post on this thread
> On topic
> Life cycle cost will be significantly lower than MKIs or the Rafael


that is obvious no shit Sherlock comment given the class and size of the jets in question. 
the inquiry is about some estimates if shared in public.


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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Dive planes or canards in front will look absolute sickk on this plane


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## Irfan Baloch

Krate M said:


> @Oscar let the plane be inducted, once the plane starts ops at a full fledged pace and then only can the life cycle cost be calculated.
> The fuel cost, the spares needed and weapons costs as well as ops cost in different environment can be calculated. Gun trials and bvr trails will be able to clarify the costs involved.


also add the personnel cost and indirect costs from the use of facilities.
you are right that cost calculation requires live trials but estimates are made on informed basis to make a case for a platform from financial point of view.


Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8 said:


> Dive planes or canards in front will look absolute sickk on this plane


there is some fan or concept art showing canards on the Tejas.

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## KapitaanAli

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is some fan or concept art showing canards on the Tejas


Mk2. Official.

The IAF paint scheme is very unfair to this fighter aesthetically, imo. It looks like a cute toy, although that goes with the "ease of flying" factor every pilot praises.

Blacked out shots from certain angles gives it a completely different look.


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## The Maverick

Windjammer said:


> Ignoring all the other nonsense you keep posting, do you know how pathetic you sound here.
> Firstly what are your Fulcrum and Flankers equipped with.... and the low cost jet with Smokey Russian engine is now operating with at least three air forces and the operators have enough confidence to perform in it on every occasion.....where was your superb engine Tejas on your Republic Day....maybe they didn't find an empty trailer for it....unlike Tejas, this is what other Jet do on their Republic Day.
> 
> View attachment 730544




Check this ITS not on TRAILER 

Thats carrying a Pyhton 5


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## KapitaanAli

The Maverick said:


> Check this ITS not on TRAILER


Imagine the desperation in still clinging onto a development agency mockup meant to give a closer look, since they have no authority to give aerial display with the real thing.

Oh wait, a development agency??? What's that!

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## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> Check this ITS not on TRAILER
> 
> Thats carrying a Pyhton 5
> 
> View attachment 730614


Wow, don't end up eating yourself now.


KapitaanAli said:


> Imagine the desperation in still clinging onto a development agency mockup meant to give a closer look, since they have no authority to give aerial display with the real thing.
> 
> *Oh wait, a development agency??? What's that!*


I'm sure it's something exclusive to you Indians.....where they pride themselves by turning a top of the range air superiority aircraft into something called AMRAAM dodger. Lol.

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## Irfan Baloch

KapitaanAli said:


> Mk2. Official.
> 
> The IAF paint scheme is very unfair to this fighter aesthetically, imo. It looks like a cute toy, although that goes with the "ease of flying" factor every pilot praises.
> 
> Blacked out shots from certain angles gives it a completely different look.


i have to get back to my spore vehicle mod to make its mk2 version

many years ago i made the tejas 1.
you can look it up as Tejas on spore on youtube


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## The Maverick

I suspect the Tejas bashing will get unprecedented with each and every entry on production planes.. 

guys there are 26 in service 7 ready to fly these coming months .
all 40 of mark1 ie remaining 14 to be inducted by mid 2022

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## VkdIndian

The Maverick said:


> I suspect the Tejas bashing will get unprecedented with each and every entry on production planes..


Yup. Expect to see pictures of Republic Day Tejas Tableau on a truck more often here. Heartache galore. 🤣🤣🤣

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## The Maverick

VkdIndian said:


> Yup. Expect to see pictures of Republic Day Tejas Tableau on a truck more often here. Heartache galore. 🤣🤣🤣



Yep they will keep.posting the truck picture if tejas or abhinandan capture for decades,to come as great moments.

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## Kingslayerr

VkdIndian said:


> Yup. Expect to see pictures of Republic Day Tejas Tableau on a truck more often here. Heartache galore. 🤣🤣🤣


Well you yourself give so many reason to troll the shit out of your shitbox. Jets are meant to fly and not paraded on back of dumptrucks. Unless its a worthless peace of shit only to satisfy one's ego of "fULlY inDiGenOuS tEjaS".


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## VkdIndian

Kingslayerr said:


> Well you yourself give so many reason to troll the shit out of your shitbox. Jets are meant to fly and not paraded on back of dumptrucks. Unless its a worthless peace of shit only to satisfy one's ego of "fULlY inDiGenOuS tEjaS".


Can I smell something that is burning? 😜😜

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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> Ignoring all the other nonsense you keep posting, do you know how pathetic you sound here.
> Firstly what are your Fulcrum and Flankers equipped with.... and the low cost jet with Smokey Russian engine is now operating with at least three air forces and the operators have enough confidence to perform in it on every occasion.....where was your superb engine Tejas on your Republic Day....maybe they didn't find an empty trailer for it....unlike Tejas, this is what other Jet do on their Republic Day.
> 
> View attachment 730544


dont embarrass yourself

Just post the service life of the Russian engine (secretly you want to compare it with Rd-93) vs F404. That's it. Otherwise, you are BS as usual.

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> dont embarrass yourself
> 
> Just post the service life of the Russian engine (secretly you want to compare it with Rd-93) vs F404. That's it. Otherwise, you are BS as usual.


You don't have the brains to comprehend what i posted so take a hike.


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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> You don't have the brains to comprehend what i posted so take a hike.


So I enlighten me, otherwise as usual .......

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> So I enlighten me, otherwise as usual .......


He was criticising Russian Engines..... you don't need to be a genius to understand....what engines are your MiG-21s.....MiG-29s and SU-30s are equipped with.....now is that too difficult to understand.


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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> He was criticising Russian Engines..... you don't need to be a genius to understand....what engines are your MiG-21s.....MiG-29s and SU-30s are equipped with.....now is that too difficult to understand.


So he was criticizing correctly.

Now you are saying it is not, simply prove it. And we have in our MiG-29 or Su-30 doesn't mean I go into length to prove the superiority of these engines, it be a total lie. You want to be a liar, that's your choice.

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> So he was criticizing correctly.
> 
> Now you are saying it is not, simply prove it. And we have in our MiG-29 or Su-30 doesn't mean I go into length to prove the superiority of these engines, it be a total lie. You want to be a liar, that's your choice.


See you don't even understand the psyche of the post but still decided to jump in.
He was only criticizing it because it equips the JF-17.....not realising that same engine also equips IAF aircraft.


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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> See you don't even understand the psyche of the post but still decided to jump in.
> He was only criticizing it because it equips the JF-17.....not realising that same engine also equips IAF aircraft.


This is a defence forum, you are saying the Russian engine is not inferior to the western counterpart. Prove it. 

What psyche has to do with it? Does the psyche allow members to lie so blatantly?

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## VkdIndian

Farhan Bohra said:


> Does the psyche allow members to lie so blatantly?


It does. Enough proof within this thread. 😉😉

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> This is a defence forum, you are saying the Russian engine is not inferior to the western counterpart. Prove it.
> 
> What psyche has to do with it? Does the psyche allow members to lie so blatantly?


Now prove your worth and show where did i compare Western engines with Russians.
Instead of addressing the troll intentions of your country fellow, you are just going on a tangent.
There must be another word to being just dense.


VkdIndian said:


> It does. Enough proof within this thread. 😉😉


Yup, Indians don't leave any runners up for that. Lol.


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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> Now prove your worth and show where did i compare Western engines with Russians.
> Instead of addressing the troll intentions of your country fellow, you are just going on a tangent.
> There must be another word to being just dense.
> 
> Yup, Indians don't leave any runners up for that. Lol.


Prove my worth? You are lying to the teeth, and you asking my worth?

Bud, you have credibility issues, if you cant prove then you are another bulshitter.

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> Prove my worth? You are lying to the teeth, and you asking my worth?
> 
> Bud, you have credibility issues, if you cant prove then you are another bulshitter.


Listen mate, you simply don't have the brains to address the issue at hands and are simply mouthing off nonsense without substance therefore you are not worth my time.


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## Farhan Bohra

Windjammer said:


> Listen mate, you simply don't have the brains to address the issue at hands and are simply mouthing off nonsense without substance therefore you are not worth my time.


No problem, obviously liars are like that. I understand.

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## Windjammer

Farhan Bohra said:


> No problem, obviously liars are like that. I understand.


Losers just run around in circles. Period.


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## The Maverick

Kingslayerr said:


> Well you yourself give so many reason to troll the shit out of your shitbox. Jets are meant to fly and not paraded on back of dumptrucks. Unless its a worthless peace of shit only to satisfy one's ego of "fULlY inDiGenOuS tEjaS".
> [/QUO
> listen buddy you stick to importing that cheap budget 3rd,generation chi der





Kingslayerr said:


> Well you yourself give so many reason to troll the shit out of your shitbox. Jets are meant to fly and not paraded on back of dumptrucks. Unless its a worthless peace of shit only to satisfy one's ego of "fULlY inDiGenOuS tEjaS".
> [/QUOTELO










There your go

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## The Raven

The fact that indians have to constantly keep refering to the JF-17 in the late crap aircraft (LCA) thread goes to show who really is butthurt and suffers from envy. You guys can keep on iterating the pechus as much as you like, it's 20 years too late already. Fact is, the JF-17 will be first in service with an AESA, HMD, and long range BVR well before the pechus, which is still in "development".

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## VkdIndian

Some dumbasses would never understand what is a tableau. Even if they understand (I doubt though) their looser psyche makes them post Tejas on a truck picture for the purpose of trolling. 
Next they would claim why is a ship on a truck on Republic Day parade. Why is it not sailing? 😜😜
Actually Indian government has come under pressure from these world class analysts and already started a canal project at Rajpath so that these ships can sail. A launch pad too is being created for launching a spacecraft from Rajpath.

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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> Ignoring all the other nonsense you keep posting, do you know how pathetic you sound here.
> Firstly what are your Fulcrum and Flankers equipped with.... and the low cost jet with Smokey Russian engine is now operating with at least three air forces and the operators have enough confidence to perform in it on every occasion.....where was your superb engine Tejas on your Republic Day....maybe they didn't find an empty trailer for it....unlike Tejas, this is what other Jet do on their Republic Day.
> 
> View attachment 730544



Tejas didn't fly on Republic Day flypast because ever since a Mirage-2000 crashed quite close to people during acrobatics in the late 1980s (1988 I believe), single engine fighters are banned from the flypast.

Now, the IAF has twin engine fighters that can fly during such fly pasts..Jaguars, Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s, Rafales..the PAF on the other hand, if it imposed such a restriction, would have almost no fighter to fly since it is almost entirely single engined. 

Get it? No jingoism there and no, it doesn't prove the JF-17 is in any way better. Lol


VkdIndian said:


> Some dumbasses would never understand what is a tableau. Even if they understand (I doubt though) their looser psyche makes them post Tejas on a truck picture for the purpose of trolling.
> Next they would claim why is a ship on a truck on Republic Day parade. Why is it not sailing? 😜😜
> Actually Indian government has come under pressure from these world class analysts and already started a canal project at Rajpath so that these ships can sail. A launch pad too is being created for launching a spacecraft from Rajpath.



It's beyond their piddly IQ levels. Anyway, who gives a damn about what some retards think? Does it matter in the real world? Not one piddly bit.

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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> He was criticising Russian Engines..... you don't need to be a genius to understand....what engines are your MiG-21s.....MiG-29s and SU-30s are equipped with.....now is that too difficult to understand.



The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.

And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.

Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.

IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.

Now getting back to the Tejas and trolls trying to derail this thread..

Pretty effective color scheme on the Tejas..I couldn't spot it for a bit initially when I saw the pic. Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter taking off from Bangalore's HAL Airport.







Less Visible, the better

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## MirageBlue

Apparently Python V is back in the running to replace the R-73E..the earlier flutter issues have been resolved and the Israelis are making a hard push for it..

Here's a Tejas Mk1 taking off with a Python V ..






Meanwhile, in other news...

Royal Malaysian Air Force team to visit Bangalore within the next 2-3 months (depending on travel restrictions) to evaluate the Tejas Mk1 and look at the HAL Assembly line, testing facilities and training facilities for the type.

Now clear that it was the Tejas Mk1A with AESA radar that was offered. Since Malaysia will most likely want to avoid Israeli equipment (as on the Su-30MKM), it'll have to be the Uttam AESA radar that will be offered instead of Elta 2052. Not sure about the Elbit Targo/DASH HMDS though..there is no other Western HMDS integrated with the Tejas..but then again, even Qatar went ahead with the Targo HMDS for it's Rafales, so it's possible Malaysia may relent to it being used.

Astra Mk1, ASRAAM, R-73E will probably be the main air to air weapons offered if Derby and Python V are not options.

link



> A Malaysian Air Force team is expected to visit India soon to assess the suitability of the light combat aircraft (LCA), a locally developed system that has recently been ordered in large numbers by the Indian Air Force (IAF), as the force looks to acquire a new line of new fighter jets.
> 
> The Malaysian team is likely to visit Bengaluru within two months, depending on travel restrictions, and will be given a full tour of the LCA production facilities, test infrastructure as well as a demonstration of its combat potential, said people aware of the matter.
> 
> They said the Indian LCA has emerged as a top contender for the Malaysian Air Force since it is being offered at cheaper rates than the Swedish Saab Gripen and is more modern and capable than the China-Pakistan origin JF 17. India is offering the LCA Mk1A version, with a modern AESA radar, new avionics and the capability to integrate a variety of weapons, for the potential export order and is confident that the aircraft will be an ideal fit for the Malaysian requirement. The initial requirement is for 12 jets, with options for 24 more in the future, said the people.
> 
> Besides full support in training both ground and air personnel, India has offered to create a full maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the LCA fleet in Malaysia to ensure a high rate of availability. India has been in talks with Malaysia on the potential order for more than three years now. In 2019, India had dispatched two of its LCA fighters for the LIMA show at Langkawi as part of its efforts to pitch the jets for the export order. India and Malaysia have also been engaging in multi-level joint exercises and training programmes as part of plans to upgrade defence cooperation.
> 
> The Indian aircraft is priced at just over $42 million per unit, a price made possible given economies of scale after the IAF placed an order for 83 fighter jets. This will make it the most lucrative aircraft on offer to Malaysia in the global scenario, said the people. Besides the Gripen and the JF 17, the South Korean T 50 is also a contender for the contract. Though Pakistan has also been pitching hard for its JF 17 fighter, its Chinese origins are likely to be an important consideration given that Malaysia has ongoing sea boundary disputes with Beijing.

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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas didn't fly on Republic Day flypast because ever since a Mirage-2000 crashed quite close to people during acrobatics in the late 1980s (1988 I believe), single engine fighters are banned from the flypast.
> 
> Now, the IAF has twin engine fighters that can fly during such fly pasts..Jaguars, Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s, Rafales..the PAF on the other hand, if it imposed such a restriction, would have almost no fighter to fly since it is almost entirely single engined.
> 
> Get it? No jingoism there and no, it doesn't prove the JF-17 is in any way better. Lol



You need to work on your history, Tejas did once or twice participated in the Republic Day Flypast.
And for your big disclosure, let me ask you, be it single or twin engine, do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly.....so it's not a question of being better or worse....it's all about having the confidence and ability.....get it.....so a big Lol to you too.

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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.
> 
> And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.
> 
> Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.
> 
> IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.


For all your banter, let me make it short and sweet for you.....you lot wouldn't have been so critical of the Russian engine had JF-17 wasn't equipped with it....and the icing on the cake is, there are well over 100 JF-17s operational with PAF alone and during their 13 years of service, only Three examples have been lost and none due to any mechanical issues....so it's more to do with Indian maintenance quality rather than anything to do with Russian engines. Lol.

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## Ali_Baba

MirageBlue said:


> The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.
> 
> And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.
> 
> Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.
> 
> IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.



PAF has operated and maintained Chinese engines on the F6s, Mig-15s, FT5s, A5s and F7s which were at least 1, if not 2 generations behind Russian engines in their design yet, did PAF did it with far fewer incidents and loss of planes and life than IAF ever did with its Russian engines. The issue is not Russian engines.

Engines, like all engineered products operate within very specific tolerances and maintenance schedules and you have know and understand that, and operate them within their specifications and when you do, they operate within their expected behaviour. This expected behaviour includes degradation in performance over time and lifespan of the units. PAF knows how to do this, IAF does not.

A5s had to be rebuilt every 200 odd hours, yet they maintained full operational capability until the day they were retired, and that due to them becoming obsolete, not because they ran our airframes because they kept crashing, etc.

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## VkdIndian

Windjammer said:


> do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly


Really? What do the aircraft do that do the fly past over the Rajpath?

Not long back one F-16 was lost while doing a fly past practice in Pakistan. A tragic loss of life resulted from that. Accidents do happen and are not only about confidence and ability. 

If talking of confidence and ability please read up about Gaganshakti exercise and Air Force day fly past by the IAF.

Don’t talk of confidence and ability here. 
Just accept that you are just a troll and nothing more.

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## Windjammer

VkdIndian said:


> Really? What do the aircraft do that do the fly past over the Rajpath?
> 
> Not long back one F-16 was lost while doing a fly past practice in Pakistan. A tragic loss of life resulted from that. Accidents do happen and are not only about confidence and ability.
> 
> If talking of confidence and ability please read up about Gaganshakti exercise and Air Force day fly past by the IAF.
> 
> Don’t talk of confidence and ability here.
> Just accept that you are just a troll and nothing more.


Give it a rest genius as you don't even know what you are talking about.
You don't even know the difference between an air display and a simple straight fly past yet judging others.
Exercises and firepower displays take place all the time....over barren designated areas....not over your parade venues. It takes confidence and ability to perform air displays over your capital.
And yea we lost an F-16 during practice over Islamabad and you lost Two Hawks practicing over country side.
Did PAF stopped it's displays after the F-16 crash....that's what's called confidence. Do you have the ability to comprehend the difference.

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## VkdIndian

Windjammer said:


> And yea we lost an F-16 during practice over Islamabad and you lost Two Hawks practicing over country side.
> Did PAF stopped it's displays after the F-16 crash....that's what's called confidence. Do you have the ability to comprehend the difference.


You really are a genius. When you loose an aircraft you sit down and analyse all the aspects. Safety is a big factor while doing these kind of things



Windjammer said:


> Exercises and firepower displays take place all the time....over barren designated areas....not over your parade venues.



Aerial display on Air Force day is not over a parade venue? It consists of flypast as well as aerobatics by multiple aircraft as well as aerobatic display teams. 
Did you see the combined aerial display by Helicopter display team and Fixed wing display team during Aero India? I guess not. You do look like a smart guy to me.



Windjammer said:


> It takes confidence and ability to perform air displays over your capital.


Was the F-16 crash due to lack of confidence? Was it due to lack of capability? Nope. The pilot who lost his life was the commanding officer of a front line PAF squadron. He knew exactly what he was doing and was highly qualified for the task. It was a tragic loss of life for optics. 

Point is - Accidents can happen anytime. Smart people work out methods to mitigate them. You are so gung-ho about PAF not stopping displays. Are they sure that a similar mishap wouldn’t happen again?

Single engine aircraft flying very low over congested areas with bird activity do pose a serious risk to life and property. It is an important factor while analysing all the aspects related to an aerial display.
Bottom line- It is not about confidence and capability only. 
You can’t stop single engine aircraft displays because you don’t have any twin engine fighters. It’s not about confidence. It’s about MAJBOORI in your case.

I hope you comprehend it. Unless your OVERconfidence makes you think that you know it all.

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## Windjammer

VkdIndian said:


> You really are a genius. When you loose an aircraft you sit down and analyse all the aspects. Safety is a big factor while doing these kind of things


I'm sure both the PAF and IAF don't need any advise from any key board warriors in this regards.



> Aerial display on Air Force day is not over a parade venue? It consists of flypast as well as aerobatics by multiple aircraft as well as aerobatic display teams.
> Did you see the combined aerial display by Helicopter display team and Fixed wing display team during Aero India? I guess not. You do look like a smart guy to me.


So now you have shifted your focus from Rajpath to Aero India with a bridge gap on Gangashakti.
Incredible....however my original argument was air display over the parade venue aka 23 March compared to 26 January....


> Was the F-16 crash due to lack of confidence? Was it due to lack of capability? Nope. The pilot who lost his life was the commanding officer of a front line PAF squadron. He knew exactly what he was doing and was highly qualified for the task. It was a tragic loss of life for optics.
> Point is that - Accidents can happen anytime. Smart people work out methods to mitigate them. You are so gung-ho about PAF not stopping displays. Are they sure that a similar mishap wouldn’t happen again?


Dude, the F-16 was the only aircraft lost during this routine, you have lost or lose more aircraft during take offs and landings, recall the crash of your Sitara IJT during Aero India or loss of Sarang team member while practicing for Aero India.....have any of the above practices stopped. The difference is after the Mirage-2000 crash, the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course.


> Single engine aircraft flying very low over congested areas with bird activity do pose a serious risk to life and property. It is an important factor while analysing all the aspects related to an aerial display.
> Bottom line- It is not about confidence and capability only.
> You can’t stop single engine aircraft displays because you don’t have any twin engine fighters. It’s not about confidence. It’s about MAJBOORI in your case.
> 
> I hope you comprehend it. Unless your OVERconfidence makes you think that you know all.



As for so called Majboori.....there's no thing as such as PAF could simply do a straight flypast like IAF does.
And as for the question of single engine V twin engine.... I'm sure you are only too well aware that you have constantly lost more of your twin engine jets compared to PAF single engine aircraft.
Let me give you an example, PAF started inducting single engine F-16s from 1982.....for almost a decade it was geared into action against Soviet/Afghan aircraft scoring several kills.....also in later years, it's been heavily involved in the WOT.....meaning a lot more extra flying putting stress on both airframe and engine....yet after almost 40 years in service, PAF lost 10 examples.
The IAF started inducting twin engine SU-30 from 2000.....and in some 20 years of service, it had lost 12 aircraft without once firing in anger. ....so it's not about knowing all but just simple maths and having some comprehension of the subject.

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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> You need to work on your history, Tejas did once or twice participated in the Republic Day Flypast.
> And for your big disclosure, let me ask you, be it single or twin engine, do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly.....so it's not a question of being better or worse....it's all about having the confidence and ability.....get it.....so a big Lol to you too.



did it? Ok, so then do some research and let me know which year. 

Even Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s were not allowed to participate in fly-pasts since a bird hit or engine flameout on a single engine type means a certain crash. But since you're not into facts but more into "mine is better than yours" type arguments, all this will hardly matter to you.

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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> did it? Ok, so then do some research and let me know which year.
> 
> Even Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s were not allowed to participate in fly-pasts since a bird hit or engine flameout on a single engine type means a certain crash. But since you're not into facts but more into "mine is better than yours" type arguments, all this will hardly matter to you.


If you need help even in such simple point then i suggest you change your area of interest.
Tejas participating in your Republic Day flypast didn't exactly happen before your time. It took place in 2017.
Now if you are Green with envy, you can always change your user name to Mirage Green.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Anik101 said:


> ~4 ton payload
> 
> 4 x 450kg bomb
> 2 x Archer CCM
> 2 x 1200 lt. Drop tank
> 1 x Lightening pod
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas has already demonstrated > 4ton payload



That's a pretty impressive loadout.


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## VkdIndian

Windjammer said:


> I'm sure both the PAF and IAF don't need any advise from any key board warriors in this regards.


You started advising. Don’t do that in future.


Windjammer said:


> the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course.


For lay men it is nerve. For a professional Air Force it is cost benefit analysis to arrive at a decision to put up only dual engine aircraft. One aberration was flypast by Tejas few years back as a one off case. Again a cost vs benefit analysis for that decision. 


Windjammer said:


> And as for the question of single engine V twin engine.... I'm sure you are only too well aware that you have constantly lost more of your twin engine jets compared to PAF single engine aircraft.
> Let me give you an example, PAF started inducting single engine F-16s from 1982.....for almost a decade it was geared into action against Soviet/Afghan aircraft scoring several kills.....also in later years, it's been heavily involved in the WOT.....meaning a lot more extra flying putting stress on both airframe and engine....yet after almost 40 years in service, PAF lost 10 examples.


There are enough threads on PDF to discuss these losses threadbare. The aspects related to rate of utilisation, number of aircraft and roles trained for are few key factors that can bring it out clearly. Any professional would talk about rate not numbers. You are off the mark again on this.


Windjammer said:


> so it's not about knowing all but just simple maths and having some comprehension of the subject.


Absolutely right you are. Please comprehend as well as understand the entire subject. Unless trolling is your aim.


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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course


You don’t have any twin engine aircrafts so it is your majboori to use single engine aircrafts in fly pasts, we use twin engined aircrafts for flypasts to maintain safety, not long back Indian Army showcased swarm drones in which explosions were controlled (and were even mentioned by the narrator on loudspeaker) to ensure safety of the audience, PDF posters started their usual trolling of fake showcase, fake explosions, fake swarming. For safety reasons we don’t use single engine aircraft, if we had lost our nerve then why do we even showcase fighters in flypasts even if they are twin engined. You cannot stop single engine aircraft use if an accident like the M200 happens else your flypast will never happen, so its better be a nice dude who understands things.

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## HostileInsurgent



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## Windjammer

HostileInsurgent said:


> You don’t have any twin engine aircrafts so it is your majboori to use single engine aircrafts in fly pasts, we use twin engined aircrafts for flypasts to maintain safety, not long back Indian Army showcased swarm drones in which explosions were controlled (and were even mentioned by the narrator on loudspeaker) to ensure safety of the audience, PDF posters started their usual trolling of fake showcase, fake explosions, fake swarming. For safety reasons we don’t use single engine aircraft, if we had lost our nerve then why do we even showcase fighters in flypasts even if they are twin engined. You cannot stop single engine aircraft use if an accident like the M200 happens else your flypast will never happen, so its better be a nice dude who understands things.


You try very hard and posting left, right and centre shows your desperation.
Let me once again try and knock some sense into Indian minds.....the IAF does a simple flypast on it's Republic Day.....the PAF could also just do the same.....there's no so called Majboori in doing solo or formation Aerobatics over the Parade Venue, F-16, JF-17 and Sherdils with K-8s......does the IAF has the nerve or to do same even with Twin engines over Rajpath.....NO.....after the M2K crash over 30 years earlier, the Majboori is lack of confidence. ...however there's no shortage of breaking news even when you put a nut on a bolt.....just to keep the gullible public ENGAGED.

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> You try very hard and posting left, right and centre shows your desperation.
> Let me once again try and knock some sense into Indian minds.....the IAF does a simple flypast on it's Republic Day.....the PAF could also just do the same.....there's no so called Majboori in doing solo or formation Aerobatics over the Parade Venue, F-16, JF-17 and Sherdils with K-8s......does the IAF has the nerve or to do same even with Twin engines over Rajpath.....NO.....after the M2K crash over 30 years earlier, the Majboori is lack of confidence. ...however there's no shortage of breaking news even when you put a nut on a bolt.....just to keep the gullible public ENGAGED.


IAF only does flypasts no airshows on Republic Day, airshows are during Aero India.

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## VkdIndian

HostileInsurgent said:


> IAF only does flypasts no airshows on Republic Day, airshows are during Aero India.


This has been explained amply in earlier posts. He keeps posting same thing again and again because either he is a troll or dumb.

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## HostileInsurgent

VkdIndian said:


> This has been explained amply in earlier posts. He keeps posting same thing again and again because either he is a troll or dumb.


You can’t expect anything else then they create thread on how to deal with Indian trolls, we create threads, they come with their troll posts.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Windjammer said:


> You try very hard and posting left, right and centre shows your desperation.
> Let me once again try and knock some sense into Indian minds.....the IAF does a simple flypast on it's Republic Day.....the PAF could also just do the same.....there's no so called Majboori in doing solo or formation Aerobatics over the Parade Venue, F-16, JF-17 and Sherdils with K-8s......does the IAF has the nerve or to do same even with Twin engines over Rajpath.....NO.....after the M2K crash over 30 years earlier, the Majboori is lack of confidence. ...however there's no shortage of breaking news even when you put a nut on a bolt.....just to keep the gullible public ENGAGED.



Wow. Windjammer gave such convincing and logical explanation.

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## Windjammer

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Wow. Windjammer gave such convincing and logical explanation.


Just doing my duty since you people descend on PDF to learn.


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## Ghost Hobbit

Windjammer said:


> Just doing my duty since you people descend on PDF to learn.



windy from your posts I believe you must be some senior ex- PAF , high likelyhood very senior in the ranks (Deputy Air Marshall at least). 

Obviously you flew F 16 from your encyclopedic understanding of the jet. Were you also from Test Pilot wing?

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## Windjammer

HostileInsurgent said:


> IAF only does flypasts no airshows on Republic Day, airshows are during Aero India.


LOL.....even Spitfires from WW2 perform displays over air bases like Aero India.....PAF also do them on 7th September.....but it takes some nerve and confidence to do something out of the box which obviously you are not use to.


Ghost Hobbit said:


> windy from your posts I believe you must be some senior ex- PAF , high likelyhood very senior in the ranks (Deputy Air Marshall at least).
> 
> Obviously you flew F 16 from your encyclopedic understanding of the jet. Were you also from Test Pilot wing?


There's no such thing as.....Deputy Air Marshal......it's Air Vice-Marshal.
Once you have knowledge of ranks and file.....then try to comment or address on the subject.


VkdIndian said:


> This has been explained amply in earlier posts. He keeps posting same thing again and again because either he is a troll or dumb.


If you are incompetent to understand the psyche of my post then please don't try to grow a brain.


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## Ghost Hobbit

Windjammer said:


> LOL.....even Spitfires from WW2 perform displays over air bases like Aero India.....PAF also do them on 7th September.....but it takes some nerve and confidence to do something out of the box which obviously you are not use to.
> 
> There's no such thing as.....Deputy Air Marshal......it's Air Vice-Marshal.
> Once you have knowledge of ranks and file.....then try to comment or address on the subject.



I never said I was an expert. I'm obviously at a disadvantage but right! You are obviously from the background I speculated you to be. These vile Indian members like @padamchen and @HostileInsurgent tried to convince me instead that you're actually a green grocer from Birmingham and that's why you make automatic reference to spare parts shop etc.

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> LOL.....even Spitfires from WW2 perform displays over air bases like Aero India


That’s what I said boomer. Now stopp polluting this thread, this is about Tejas Program not your mine is better than yours.

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## Windjammer

Ghost Hobbit said:


> I never said I was an expert. I'm obviously at a disadvantage but right! You are obviously from the background I speculated you to be. These vile Indian members like @padamchen and @HostileInsurgent tried to convince me instead that you're actually a green grocer from Birmingham and that's why you make automatic reference to spare parts shop etc.


A person asked a starving Indian....what is 2+2......the poor hungry Indian replied 2+2 makes 4 Tandoori Chickens.... 
Hell people you have mentioned have similar intelligent fan club members who is convinced that Green Grocer shops also sell spare parts...... like the above example.....maybe some one also needs spare parts for their brains.


HostileInsurgent said:


> That’s what I said boomer. Now stopp polluting this thread, this is about Tejas Program not your mine is better than yours.


Take a hike genius......first you behave like a headless Chicken and when you are busted then you bring your moral mule out......besides you lot have polluted the entire forum. 
Good that someone started a thread on how to rid the Indian menace.


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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> A person asked a starving Indian....what is 2+2......the poor hungry Indian replied 2+2 makes 4 Tandoori Chickens....


Waah kya joke maara, arey hasde bhai @Ghost Hobbit bande ne joke maara hai.


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## Anik101

LCA NAVY





























In Sri Lanka







Windjammer said:


> Ignoring all the other nonsense you keep posting, do you know how pathetic you sound here.
> Firstly what are your Fulcrum and Flankers equipped with.... and the low cost jet with Smokey Russian engine is now operating with at least three air forces and the operators have enough confidence to perform in it on every occasion.....where was your superb engine Tejas on your Republic Day....maybe they didn't find an empty trailer for it....unlike Tejas, this is what other Jet do on their Republic Day.
> 
> View attachment 730544


HAL Tejas during Air force Day celebrations








Republic Day Flypast

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## Anik101

HostileInsurgent said:


>


Fabrication work has started. 1st prototype will be rolling out next year.





Tejas mk2 will have 11 hardpoints with a payload capacity of 6.5 tons 
992 T/R module DRDO Uttam liquid-cooled AESA Radar + IRST by Dehradun based lab called IRDE. It will also be equipped with On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) which will increase the endurance by several hours.

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## Andhadhun



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## Anik101

In Malaysia









In Sri Lanka

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful shot of 5 Tejas prototypes flying over HAL Airport Bangalore with 2 Mirage-2000s and 7 Jaguars on the tarmac.

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## MirageBlue

Loaded Tejas Mk1..carrying 2 Derby BVRAAMs, 2 R-73Es and drop tanks.

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## Anik101

MirageBlue said:


> Beautiful shot of 5 Tejas prototypes flying over HAL Airport Bangalore with 2 Mirage-2000s and 7 Jaguars on the tarmac.


There is also a HAL HF-24 Marut in background....

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## Skull and Bones

Anik101 said:


> There is also a HAL HF-24 Marut in background....



Bloody good eyes, mate!

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## Anik101

Skull and Bones said:


> Bloody good eyes, mate!


HVT pointed this out

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382282539360944130

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## MirageBlue

Twitter link



> Wanna play?

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## Anik101

Naval LCA trials at shore-based test facility

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## Anik101

Simulator of HAL's Lead-In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) based on LCA Tejas

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## MirageBlue

Size comparison of Tejas Mk1 and Su-30MKI..stark difference!

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## HostileInsurgent

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383995538954080268

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## Anik101

As state of the art as it gets. Everything from the a/c essentials - engine RPM, fuel cap., hyd. pressures & temps, horizon to stuff like payload,2D map, realtime 3D terrain visualisation, RWR page, secure ODL showing shared SA page, onboard FCR page & SMS page on a single MFD
This with an excellent HMD, and an SDR, you have everything in front of your eyes. Godlike sensor fusion with excellent SA. No need to continuously fiddle around with switches and menus unless you really want to go deep inside something for troubleshooting purposes.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383712421534048262

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383723228430884867

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## Vapnope

MirageBlue said:


> Size comparison of Tejas Mk1 and Su-30MKI..stark difference!


Mki is a beautiful plane.


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## Ghost Hobbit

MirageBlue said:


> Size comparison of Tejas Mk1 and Su-30MKI..stark difference!



one is point defence, the other is deep penetration strike.


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## HostileInsurgent

Vapnope said:


> Mki is a beautiful plane.


To be honest, F-16 and Su-30MKI both are the most beautiful aircraft ever made, no other aircraft looks too much beatiful like the Falcon and Flanker.

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## HostileInsurgent

OBOGS...!!!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384026785973604353

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## MirageBlue

Just check out the small size of the Tejas Mk1..basically not larger than a Hawk AJT..but carries 3900 kgs max payload and 2486 kgs of internal fuel. Will be very hard to spot in a visual engagement..from what we know, it was sized keeping a MiG-21 footprint in mind..basically to be able to use the existing hardened shelters that were built for the MiG-21. 






LCA evolution from the LCA Mk1 to the LCA AF Mk2 (2014 PDR) to the LCA AF Mk2 with canards (2017) to the final design that was settled in 2019.

Can see the increase in the All Up Weight (or MTOW) from 13,500 kgs on the Mk1 to the 17,500 kgs on the final Mk2 variant. Total 1.35 meter increase in length. The canards of course increase lift substantially to offset the increase in AUW. 

The image shows where the fuselage plugs were being placed on each of the design iterations.

Tejas Mk2 final internal fuel - 3300 kgs 
Max Payload - 6500 kgs

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## HostileInsurgent



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## Anik101

LCA Tejas landing with 3x drop tanks

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## MirageBlue

Anik101 said:


> LCA Tejas landing with 3x drop tanks



It's a pity that they're now hiding the aircraft's registration number from these images..can't tell if it's LA-5017 or a later number..

Anyway, this fighter belongs to No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron, since it's a Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter with the IFR probe.

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## VkdIndian

MirageBlue said:


> It's a pity that they're now hiding the aircraft's registration number from these images..can't tell if it's LA-5017 or a later number.


Are the timelines of MK IA available? Timelines to achieve various stages of the development and induction?


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## MirageBlue

Tejas OBOGS work being used to help COVID patients

DRDO hospitals to harness Tejas technology for oxygen generation



> LUCKNOW: At at time when the gap between the demand and supply of oxgen is continuously widening, the makeshift hospitals to be set up by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in Lucknow are likely to have their own oxygen supply with the help of a technology used in light combat aircraft Tejas fighter jets.
> This is the first time that the self-sustainable oxygen generation technology for fighter pilots will be used in makeshift hospitals in Uttar Pradesh.
> 
> Defence minister and Lucknow MP Rajnath Singh sent a team of DRDO officials to the state capital on Friday to start the process for setting up of hospitals at Haj House and Golden Blossoms resort. The hospitals, likely to get ready by next week, will have around 250-300 beds each and will be run by the doctors, nurses and support staff of Armed Forces Medical Services.
> 
> According to defence ministry sources, DRDO has developed a medical oxygen plant as a spin off technology of the ‘On board oxygen generation system’ (OBOGS) of LCA Tejas.
> 
> On condition of anonymity, an official told TOI: “This plant can provide medical grade oxygen round-the-clock at a high-flow rate catering to at least 50 ventilator ICU beds. This technology will be used to activate oxygen plants at Covid hospitals.”
> 
> The technology, which has been developed by DRDO’s Defence Electromedical & Bio-Engineering Laboratory (DEBEL), breaks down molecular components of the atmospheric air to provide continuous oxygen to pilot within the aircraft for long duration and high altitude flights.
> 
> Once set up, the technology will help in continuous supply of oxygen to critical beds for Covid patients, refilling of oxygen cylinders and eradicating logistical problems related to cylinder transportation from one point to another, apart from sharing the burden of oxygen demand and supply.

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## MirageBlue

Just a nice image of the Tejas Mk1..

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## Surya 1

If atall, I would like anything to be done in a platform, It is aerodynamic improvements and weight reduction. India is all set to do this in a big sclale in tejas. 

Its canopy redesign is on card in Mk1 Variant. Rare fuselage will also be redesign so as air intake. Canopy redesign will improve aerodynamics by 6 counts. Rare fuselage redesign will also improve aerodynamics. Air intake redesign will improve power delivery by 3%. Aerodynamic improvement will improve transonic acceleration by 20% and top speed by 2%. Weight reduction will boost T/W ratio by few percentage. Overall, MK1 A will be a much potent aircraft with atleast 300 km Higher range, 4000kg + external payload etc.

Astra Mk1 and, Paython and derby will make it a great fighter.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Happy surprise!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387310622107336705

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## Surya 1

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Happy surprise!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387310622107336705



Astra, Python-5,AMRAM, Astra Mk2, I derby, SFDR. Tejas will have a very wide range of weapons.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Brochure screen shots from Rafael

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## MirageBlue

What a pic! So the flutter issue related to Python V carriage has been resolved satisfactorily.

I would pity the enemy pilot having to face a Python V cued by the DASH HMDS that the Tejas Mk1 pilot is wearing. 

And by year end, ASRAAM integration is planned to be completed.








> Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) in its weapons capability yesterday, 27th April 2021. Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM.

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## Anik101

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Happy surprise!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387310622107336705


They have tested python 5 means that they have resolved vibration issues with the missile.
This missile coupled with dash-4 Helmet Mounted Display and Cueing system will add to the close combat capability of Tejas.




Now waiting for i-derby ER and Astra mk1 test.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Anik101 said:


> They have tested python 5 means that they have resolved vibration issues with the missile.
> This missile coupled with dash-4 Helmet Mounted Display and Cueing system will add to the close combat capability of Tejas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now waiting for i-derby ER and Astra mk1 test.



This will fry JF17 since that has no equal defences @Windjammer


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## Anik101

MirageBlue said:


> What a pic! So the flutter issue related to Python V carriage has been resolved satisfactorily.
> 
> I would pity the enemy pilot having to face a Python V cued by the DASH HMDS that the Tejas Mk1 pilot is wearing.
> 
> And by year end, ASRAAM integration is planned to be completed.


Also the aircraft is flying in asymmetric configuration. It has only 1 pylon mounted drop tank. CLAW at work....

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## The Raven

Ghost Hobbit said:


> This will fry JF17 since that has no equal defences @Windjammer



JF-17 Block I/II have UV-based MAWS and chaff/flare dispensers, Tejas has no MAWS. JF-17 Block III will have new improved IR-based MAWS. Block III will also have HMD/S and PL-10 HOBS.


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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Happy surprise!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387310622107336705



Trials were also aimed at validating "enhanced capabilities" of the Derby BVRAAM integrated..

Hmm..I wonder what those "enhanced capabilities" of the Derby BVRAAM integration were..


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## Anik101

MirageBlue said:


> Trials were also aimed at validating "enhanced capabilities" of the Derby BVRAAM integrated..
> 
> Hmm..I wonder what those "enhanced capabilities" of the Derby BVRAAM integration were..


I-derby ER


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## Anik101

The Raven said:


> JF-17 Block I/II have UV-based MAWS and chaff/flare dispensers, Tejas has no MAWS. JF-17 Block III will have new improved IR-based MAWS. Block III will also have HMD/S and PL-10 HOBS.


It will have pylon mounted dual colour MAWS


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## The Raven

Anik101 said:


> It will have pylon mounted dual colour MAWS
> View attachment 738123



The picture is of Su-30MKI, not Tejas. Even if it is intended to Tehas, the emphasis in on *"will have"*. Which version "will have" it? Timeline?

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## Ghost Hobbit

The Raven said:


> JF-17 Block I/II have UV-based MAWS and chaff/flare dispensers, Tejas has no MAWS. JF-17 Block III will have new improved IR-based MAWS. Block III will also have HMD/S and PL-10 HOBS.


only the first 40 Tejas have underperforming MAWS and if you think you can fight off the Pyhon with chaffs...good luck


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## MirageBlue

The Raven said:


> JF-17 Block I/II have UV-based MAWS and chaff/flare dispensers, Tejas has no MAWS. JF-17 Block III will have new improved IR-based MAWS. Block III will also have HMD/S and PL-10 HOBS.



MAWS will inform the pilot that the Python V is on it's way so he can commence evasive tactics..but given the IIR staring array seeker on the Python V, using flares will make very little difference. Flares don't fool these 5th gen staring array seekers.

As it is, the R-73E is a dangerous HOBS CCM with snap turn capability..but the Python V has full 360 degree engagement capability..the pilot can target an enemy fighter which is nowhere near his fighters' nose simply by looking at it on his DASH HMDS and fire. 

No fighter can out-turn a Python V within 15 km. The pilot can only pull 8G max (in a JF-17) or 9G (in a F-16) and the Python V can easily pull 50-60 Gs to still hit the target.


The Raven said:


> The picture is of Su-30MKI, not Tejas. Even if it is intended to Tehas, the emphasis in on *"will have"*. Which version "will have" it? Timeline?



Remarkable..when will the JF-17 Block 3 enter service?

When will JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 have HMDS? 
When will JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 get PL-10?

So it's ok to have "will have" features listed for JF-17 but not for the Tejas..lol

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## The Raven

Ghost Hobbit said:


> only the first 40 Tejas have underperforming MAWS and if you think you can fight off the Pyhon with chaffs...good luck



The same applies to Tejas, with limited to no MAWS and chaff/flare, good luck with that as well.

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## MirageBlue

Anik101 said:


> I-derby ER



That's an altogether different missile, even though it is similar in form and fit.

Enhancement could be in the way the seeker on board the Derby provides data back to the Tejas or perhaps having the Derby guided by another Tejas which has designated the target, while the Tejas that fired the Derby is nose cold (radar is turned off) to avoid detection..


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## The Raven

MirageBlue said:


> MAWS will inform the pilot that the Python V is on it's way so he can commence evasive tactics..but given the IIR staring array seeker on the Python V, using flares will make very little difference. Flares don't fool these 5th gen staring array seekers.
> 
> As it is, the R-73E is a dangerous HOBS CCM with snap turn capability..but the Python V has full 360 degree engagement capability..the pilot can target an enemy fighter which is nowhere near his fighters' nose simply by looking at it on his DASH HMDS and fire.
> 
> No fighter can out-turn a Python V within 15 km. The pilot can only pull 8G max (in a JF-17) or 9G (in a F-16) and the Python V can easily pull 50-60 Gs to still hit the target.
> 
> 
> Remarkable..when will the JF-17 Block 3 enter service?
> 
> When will JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 have HMDS?
> When will JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 get PL-10?
> 
> So it's ok to have "will have" features listed for JF-17 but not for the Tejas..lol



You're assuming the Tejas will get within 15km of JF-17. In WVR turn fight, it's anyone's game.

My original point stands, Block I/II JF-17 have MAWS capability, Tejas does not.


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## Ghost Hobbit

The Raven said:


> The same applies to Tejas, with limited to no MAWS and chaff/flare, good luck with that as well.



who said 'no MAWS'? 1 will have limited MAWs, 1A onwards full capability. Better than JF 17 anyway


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## The Raven

Ghost Hobbit said:


> who said 'no MAWS'? 1 will have limited MAWs, 1A onwards full capability. Better than JF 17 anyway



What's "limited MAWS"? Either it has it or it doesn't. What spectrum MAWS does 1 have, UV or IR? Where are the MAWS located?

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## Ghost Hobbit

@


The Raven said:


> What's "limited MAWS"? Either it has it or it doesn't. What spectrum MAWS does 1 have, UV or IR? Where are the MAWS located?



1A has ISraeli ELTA. 1 will incorporate one post facto- go ahead, send in your jets telling them 'LCA has no MAWS'


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## The Raven

Ghost Hobbit said:


> @
> 
> 
> 1A has ISraeli ELTA. 1 will incorporate one post facto- go ahead, send in your jets telling them 'LCA has no MAWS'



?? what are you blabbering about? Can you provide a pic showing location of MAWS on the first 40 aircraft?


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## MirageBlue

The Raven said:


> You're assuming the Tejas will get within 15km of JF-17. In WVR turn fight, it's anyone's game.
> 
> My original point stands, Block I/II JF-17 have MAWS capability, Tejas does not.



Actually it can fire the Python V at near BVR ranges, which is ~20-25 km.

15 km would be the bubble of NEZ where any target is extremely vulnerable. 

The Bison flown by Wing Cmdr Abhinandan got within visual range of the F-16 at which he fired the R-73E. So, never assume that WVR combat won't happen. If that were the case, Air Forces wouldn't expend so much money and effort into getting top of the line WVRAAMs integrated. 

Tejas Mk1A is going to get the MAWS. Which will be ported over to the 40 Tejas Mk1s once development for the Mk1A is complete. 

Importantly, even WITHOUT a MAWS, a pilot can be made aware of a missile launched at him..AEW&C and AWACS both have the capability to detect a missile launch and warn their fighters.

The JF-17 Block 1 and 2 don't have HMDS or PL-10. You guys don't even know WHICH HMDS will be used. And there is no roadmap for when these will be integrated, tested and then retrofitted on over 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s. 

So in a visual range fight, the Tejas Mk1 is far more dangerous than the JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 since it can use the DASH HMDS and R-73E or Python V. JF-17 will use the older PL-5EII WVRAAM which is NOT a HOBS missile. It's off-bore capability is rather poor compared to the R-73E and not comparable to the ASRAAM or Python V.

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## The Raven

MirageBlue said:


> Actually it can fire the Python V at near BVR ranges, which is ~20-25 km.
> 
> 15 km would be the bubble of NEZ where any target is extremely vulnerable.
> 
> The Bison flown by Wing Cmdr Abhinandan got within visual range of the F-16 at which he fired the R-73E. So, never assume that WVR combat won't happen. If that were the case, Air Forces wouldn't expend so much money and effort into getting top of the line WVRAAMs integrated.
> 
> Tejas Mk1A is going to get the MAWS. Which will be ported over to the 40 Tejas Mk1s once development for the Mk1A is complete.
> 
> Importantly, even WITHOUT a MAWS, a pilot can be made aware of a missile launched at him..AEW&C and AWACS both have the capability to detect a missile launch and warn their fighters.
> 
> The JF-17 Block 1 and 2 don't have HMDS or PL-10. You guys don't even know WHICH HMDS will be used. And there is no roadmap for when these will be integrated, tested and then retrofitted on over 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s.
> 
> So in a visual range fight, the Tejas Mk1 is far more dangerous than the JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 since it can use the DASH HMDS and R-73E or Python V. JF-17 will use the older PL-5EII WVRAAM which is NOT a HOBS missile. It's off-bore capability is rather poor compared to the R-73E and not comparable to the ASRAAM or Python V.



Right thanks for confirming, the first 40 Tejas will have no MAWS, like I said. 

Unfortunately, the rest of your comment is BS, Abhi never got within visual of the Viper, it was a BVR kill by the Viper, and Abhi is on record of stating "he was looking" for the Viper. His drop tanks were still attached to his Mig. We can start a flame war about Feb 2019 in the Tejas thread if you like  

The rest of your assumptions also applies to the PAF, including AWAC and datalink support, or did you forget how the IAF was blindsided on Feb 2019 

We can continue and discuss Operation Swift Retort here if you like

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## Anik101

I-Derby ER was also test fired along with python 5








DRDO conducts maiden trial of Python-5 Air to Air Missile


Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missil



pib.gov.in





BTW python5 is one of the best WVRAAM in the world with 360° engagement capability. By the end of this year Tejas will be capable of firing R73 Archer, i-derby, Astra mk1, ASRAAM, Python5, i-derby ER.

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## MirageBlue

Bring it on! This is a major step up in capability which wasn't even reported till all the missile firings were completed.

This was not 1 Python V firing..it was a series of Python Vs that were fired to test it in very challenging scenarios. And it was a 100% success in all firings for both Python V and Derby.

This Python V and Derby enhanced capability is ready to go on the Tejas Mk1 fleet!

Official Press Release



> *
> Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) in its air-to-air weapons capability on April 27, 2021. Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM on Tejas.
> 
> The test firing at Goa completed a series of missile trials to validate its performance under extremely challenging scenarios. Derby missile achieved direct hit on a high-speed maneuvering aerial target and the Python missiles also achieved 100% hits, thereby validating their complete capability. The trials met all their planned objectives.
> 
> Prior to these trials, extensive missile carriage flight tests were conducted at Bengaluru to assess integration of the missile with aircraft systems on board the Tejas, like Avionics, Fire-control radar, Missile Weapon Delivery System and the Flight Control System.
> 
> At Goa, after successful separation trials, live launch of the missile on a Banshee target was carried out. Python-5 missile live firing was conducted to validate target engagement from all aspects as well as beyond visual ranges. In all the live firings, missile hit the aerial target. *
> 
> The missiles were fired from Tejas aircraft of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) flown by Indian Air Force (IAF) Test pilots belonging to National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). The successful conduct was made possible with years of hard work by the team of scientists, engineers and technicians from ADA and HAL-ARDC along with admirable support from CEMILAC, DG-AQA, IAF PMT, NPO (LCA Navy) and INS HANSA.

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## Anik101

Tejas equiped with DRDO's Uttam AESA Radar.

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## MirageBlue

Video of one of the tests of Python V fired from Tejas Mk1. Superb high speed video that clearly shows it flying off the rail.

BTW, the video confirms that the Tejas MK1 prototype LSP7 was carrying just 1 wing mounted drop tank, which is no problem for the pilot because of the superb FCS on the Tejas Mk1 that is designed to handle asymmetric loads.

Another amazing thing is how smokeless the Python V is..there was no smoke trail from it's launch thanks to Smokeless propellant...That means visually an enemy pilot would not be able to easily spot it being fired just based on the smoke trail.

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## Anik101

Tejas armed with 2x Archer and Python 5

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## MirageBlue

Anik101 said:


> Tejas armed with 2x Archer and Python 5
> View attachment 738142



By the end of this year, it'll also be integrated with the ASRAAM CCM. 

Python V works out well because the IA and IAF have large stocks of this missile from their SpyDer SAM batteries. ASRAAM is to be the NG-CCM for the IAF, having already equipped the Jaguar DARIN III. ASRAAM will also be employed on the Su-30MKI replacing the R-73E.


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## Ghost Hobbit

The Raven said:


> ?? what are you blabbering about? Can you provide a pic showing location of MAWS on the first 40 aircraft?



read the post again


The Raven said:


> Right thanks for confirming, the first 40 Tejas will have no MAWS, like I said.
> 
> Unfortunately, the rest of your comment is BS, Abhi never got within visual of the Viper, it was a BVR kill by the Viper, and Abhi is on record of stating "he was looking" for the Viper. His drop tanks were still attached to his Mig. We can start a flame war about Feb 2019 in the Tejas thread if you like
> 
> The rest of your assumptions also applies to the PAF, including AWAC and datalink support, or did you forget how the IAF was blindsided on Feb 2019
> 
> We can continue and discuss Operation Swift Retort here if you like



First 40 jets are awaiting testing...what will you do in 2 years time when we start adding them to MAWS. PAF doesn't have any good system like the Phalcon. Your AWACS is very limited.

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## Windjammer

Ghost Hobbit said:


> This will fry JF17 since that has no equal defences @Windjammer


As expected, as soon as you people manage to put a nut on bolt, it's either a feat of engineering or breaking news....however, let me jog your memory.....pre-27.2.2019....all we would read and hear is that the SU-30 is an over kill of the PAF and it's meant for China....where as the MiG-29s are sufficient to take care of entire PAF.....well, when the test came, maybe the fanboys forgot their habitual banter but we saw there was no MiG-29 in sight and the less said about the SU-30s the better as this thread is about Tejas.
And since you use the term 'Fry' liberally, well you most probably know that we are going through our month of Fasting.....even then we love to fry Samosas.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Anik101 said:


> Tejas equiped with DRDO's Uttam AESA Radar.


*
WOWWW!!!!*


Windjammer said:


> As expected, as soon as you people manage to put a nut on bolt, it's either a feat of engineering or breaking news....however, let me jog your memory.....pre-27.2.2019....all we would read and hear is that the SU-30 is an over kill of the PAF and it's meant for China....where as the MiG-29s are sufficient to take care of entire PAF.....well, when the test came, maybe the fanboys forgot their habitual banter but we saw there was no MiG-29 in sight and the less said about the SU-30s the better as this thread is about Tejas.
> And since you use the term 'Fry' liberally, well you most probably know that we are going through our month of Fasting.....even then we love to fry Samosas.



You know windy, in WVR combat you need really strong wind- braking to execute tight maneuvres to fight the Pythons...hope you are full of them

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## The Raven

Ghost Hobbit said:


> read the post again
> 
> 
> First 40 jets are awaiting testing...what will you do in 2 years time when we start adding them to MAWS. PAF doesn't have any good system like the Phalcon. Your AWACS is very limited.



You've proved my point. JF-17 had MAWS now, Tejas doesn't. Good luck with the 2 year timeline, we all know how Tejas schedules go lol. Your Phalcons were nowhere to be seen when needed lol

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## Windjammer

Ghost Hobbit said:


> You know windy, in WVR combat you need really strong wind- braking to execute tight maneuvres to fight the Pythons...hope you are full of them


In this day and age, when sitting on the ground, man can tell the temperature of the Sun, still your Agni Pankh Patils couldn't distinguish the difference between a fast jet and a slow moving Chopper in their own back yards....that too during a minute skirmish....but then again you are executing so many tight turns that now your chudi is in a twist trapping the wind in your upper crust......which obviously is just an echo chamber.

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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> As expected, as soon as you people manage to put a nut on bolt, it's either a feat of engineering or breaking news....however, let me jog your memory.....pre-27.2.2019....all we would read and hear is that the SU-30 is an over kill of the PAF and it's meant for China....where as the MiG-29s are sufficient to take care of entire PAF.....well, when the test came, maybe the fanboys forgot their habitual banter but we saw there was no MiG-29 in sight and the less said about the SU-30s the better as this thread is about Tejas.
> And since you use the term 'Fry' liberally, well you most probably know that we are going through our month of Fasting.....even then we love to fry Samosas.



more gas troubles for this guy..

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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> more gas troubles for this guy..


Stray has come for his free daily dose.


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## MirageBlue

Ghost Hobbit said:


> *WOWWW!!!!*
> 
> 
> You know windy, in WVR combat you need really strong wind- braking to execute tight maneuvres to fight the Pythons...hope you are full of them



He's full of wind, that's for sure.. 


Windjammer said:


> Stray has come for his free daily dose.



Hi gassy boy..

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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> He's full of wind, that's for sure..
> 
> 
> Hi gassy boy..


I see that Dalit is still making you turn Blue.

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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> I see that Dalit is still making you turn Blue.



Thoda churan kam khaaya karo gassy boy..you stink up each thread you appear in.

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## Ghost Hobbit

MirageBlue said:


> Thoda churan kam khaaya karo gassy boy..you stink up each thread you appear in.



Come now. @Windjammer is deputy airchief marshall. Show more respect. Don't call him windbreaker, greengrocer from birmingham etc. He deserves more respect


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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> Thoda churan kam khaaya karo gassy boy..you stink up each thread you appear in.


Surprised you know what stink is considering according to Jairam Ramesh you thrive in it.


Ghost Hobbit said:


> Come now. @Windjammer is deputy airchief marshall. Show more respect. Don't call him windbreaker, greengrocer from birmingham etc. He deserves more respect


It could be worse, Hobbits are described as About half average human height with obviously even less brain.
Add to that being an unemployed Call centre clown. .... Mention Not.


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## jk007

Windjammer said:


> As expected, as soon as you people manage to put a nut on bolt, it's either a feat of engineering or breaking news....however, let me jog your memory.....pre-27.2.2019....all we would read and hear is that the SU-30 is an over kill of the PAF and it's meant for China....where as the MiG-29s are sufficient to take care of entire PAF.....well, when the test came, maybe the fanboys forgot their habitual banter but we saw there was no MiG-29 in sight and the less said about the SU-30s the better as this thread is about Tejas.
> And since you use the term 'Fry' liberally, well you most probably know that we are going through our month of Fasting.....even then we love to fry Samosas.


Can someone knowledgeable like @dbc @SQ8 @MirageBlue tell us how IAF would have better prepared on feb 29th when 24 or so PAF flights showed-up suddenly?

A) Obviously, IAF can't keep all it's aircraft flying and waiting for PAF the entire day, correct?
B) other than not having SDR, what are the other aspects at which IAF is found wanting?
C) I think in hit and run encounters (like PAFs on that day), how can the other party (IAF) be prepared all the time? PAF may come with 12 / 24 / 36 etc aircraft. Basically, PAF can choose time & place to hit as the initiative is with them.

Pakistanis seem to have drawn huge conclusions on that one single encounter.


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## Windjammer

jk007 said:


> Can someone knowledgeable like @dbc @SQ8 @MirageBlue tell us how IAF would have better prepared on feb 29th when 24 or so PAF flights showed-up suddenly?
> 
> A) Obviously, IAF can't keep all it's aircraft flying and waiting for PAF the entire day, correct?
> B) other than not having SDR, what are the other aspects at which IAF is found wanting?
> C) I think in hit and run encounters (like PAFs on that day), how can the other party (IAF) be prepared all the time? PAF may come with 12 / 24 / 36 etc aircraft. Basically, PAF can choose time & place to hit as the initiative is with them.
> 
> Pakistanis seem to have drawn huge conclusions on that one single encounter.


You seem to have conveniently ignored the fact that it was IAF which tried to misadventure in the middle of the night so a response from PAF was natural thus expected.....you have sufficient CAPs in the air as well as your AWACS that can loiter in the air for hours plus your ground radar operators glued to their consoles. 
And no the conclusion isn't drawn from a single encounter, just check the history of both respective air forces.....when did IAF managed to deliver apart from during Kargil crisis.....even then only because it carried out strikes within own side of LOC on well demarcated targets and above all without any air opposition.

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## Ghost Hobbit

Windjammer said:


> Surprised you know what stink is considering according to Jairam Ramesh you thrive in it.
> 
> It could be worse, Hobbits are described as About half average human height with obviously even less brain.
> Add to that being an unemployed Call centre clown. .... Mention Not.



Come, come windy, we want something witty from you. Don't disappoint us now...

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk2 brochure..can't wait to see this prototype roll out next year.

It'll be a game changer for the IAF, in that it's state of the art in almost all respects except stealth shaping..It will allow the IAF to begin to work on replacing older Jaguar DARIN I, IIs and then move to replacing the MiG-29UPGs and Mirage-2000Is in the 2030s.

This is the perfect Mirage-2000 replacement, almost tailor made for that role. But with technologies more advanced than what's on the upgraded Mirage-2000I.

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## MirageBlue

Superb render of the Tejas Mk2 MWF by Kunal Biswas. He has updated his earlier MWF rendering based on the details of the Tejas Mk2 MWF model displayed at Aero India 2021..

Also has the updated rendering of the AMCA, which is in my opinion, the closest to the real design.

What an absolute beauty the Tejas Mk2 is!

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## ziaulislam

Ghost Hobbit said:


> This will fry JF17 since that has no equal defences @Windjammer


Whats the jf17:block 3 HMDS & PL-10 for?
To fry chickens


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## Lord Of Gondor

So confirmation from Rahul Bedi/Jane's that the other missile fired was the I-Derby ER!


> The Python 5 test-firings were the last in a series of missile trials designed to validate the aircraft’s performance under “extremely challenging scenarios”, noted the PIB, adding that the I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which is also made by Rafael, was also test-fired.


AESA seeker with programmable ECCM and datalink with multi shot capability.
Potent addition.
India test-fires Python 5 AAM from Tejas LCA

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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Whats the jf17:block 3 HMDS & PL-10 for?
> To fry chickens



THere are over 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s that don't have HMDS nor PL-10. They have a PL-5EII with no HMDS as their primary WVR capability. 

It'll take years to upgrade them with the not-yet-selected HMDS and integrate them with PL-10.

Good luck with that.


Lord Of Gondor said:


> So confirmation from Rahul Bedi/Jane's that the other missile fired was the I-Derby ER!
> 
> AESA seeker with programmable ECCM and datalink with multi shot capability.
> Potent addition.
> India test-fires Python 5 AAM from Tejas LCA



LOG, I would take that news with some caution..they have assumed that the enhanced capability Derby being referred to in the article was the I-Derby ER. 

They COULD be right, but I don't think they have cross-verified with other sources, only used the PIB press release's reference.

if true, it's a big step forward for the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A. I-Derby ER is a 100 km+ range dual pulse missile with new AESA seeker that will give the Tejas a deadly BVRAAM.

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## KapitaanAli

Highly unlikely that it's Derby-ER.


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## MirageBlue

KapitaanAli said:


> Highly unlikely that it's Derby-ER.



I wouldn't say it's highly unlikely, just that it's not confirmed as yet. 

There is every reason to move from Derby to I-Derby-ER. The dual pulse motor, the AESA seeker replacing the older pulse doppler seeker, new software for newer profiles..it's basically a completely re-worked and modernised Derby. 

But without having heard of any new I-Derby ER purchase, the other question I would have is whether it's possible to retrofit newer modules and software on older Derby missiles. But that question will likely never get answered.


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## Primus

MirageBlue said:


> Actually it can fire the Python V at near BVR ranges, which is ~20-25 km.
> 
> 15 km would be the bubble of NEZ where any target is extremely vulnerable.
> 
> The Bison flown by Wing Cmdr Abhinandan got within visual range of the F-16 at which he fired the R-73E. So, never assume that WVR combat won't happen. If that were the case, Air Forces wouldn't expend so much money and effort into getting top of the line WVRAAMs integrated.
> 
> Tejas Mk1A is going to get the MAWS. Which will be ported over to the 40 Tejas Mk1s once development for the Mk1A is complete.
> 
> Importantly, even WITHOUT a MAWS, a pilot can be made aware of a missile launched at him..AEW&C and AWACS both have the capability to detect a missile launch and warn their fighters.
> 
> The JF-17 Block 1 and 2 don't have HMDS or PL-10. You guys don't even know WHICH HMDS will be used. And there is no roadmap for when these will be integrated, tested and then retrofitted on over 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s.
> 
> So in a visual range fight, the Tejas Mk1 is far more dangerous than the JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 since it can use the DASH HMDS and R-73E or Python V. JF-17 will use the older PL-5EII WVRAAM which is NOT a HOBS missile. It's off-bore capability is rather poor compared to the R-73E and not comparable to the ASRAAM or Python V.





MirageBlue said:


> Actually it can fire the Python V at near BVR ranges, which is ~20-25 km.
> 
> 15 km would be the bubble of NEZ where any target is extremely vulnerable.
> 
> The Bison flown by Wing Cmdr Abhinandan got within visual range of the F-16 at which he fired the R-73E. So, never assume that WVR combat won't happen. If that were the case, Air Forces wouldn't expend so much money and effort into getting top of the line WVRAAMs integrated.
> 
> Tejas Mk1A is going to get the MAWS. Which will be ported over to the 40 Tejas Mk1s once development for the Mk1A is complete.
> 
> Importantly, even WITHOUT a MAWS, a pilot can be made aware of a missile launched at him..AEW&C and AWACS both have the capability to detect a missile launch and warn their fighters.
> 
> The JF-17 Block 1 and 2 don't have HMDS or PL-10. You guys don't even know WHICH HMDS will be used. And there is no roadmap for when these will be integrated, tested and then retrofitted on over 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s.
> 
> So in a visual range fight, the Tejas Mk1 is far more dangerous than the JF-17 Blk 1 and 2 since it can use the DASH HMDS and R-73E or Python V. JF-17 will use the older PL-5EII WVRAAM which is NOT a HOBS missile. It's off-bore capability is rather poor compared to the R-73E and not comparable to the ASRAAM or Python V.



Hi, no. Just no. 

BVR range exceeds 37km. Not 20km to 25km. That's not near bvr. That's still wvr. 

'The Bison flown by Wing Cmdr Abhinandan got within visual range of the F-16 at which he fired the R-73E. So, never assume that WVR combat won't happen. If that were the case, Air Forces wouldn't expend so much money and effort into getting top of the line WVRAAMs integrated. '

WVR combat didn't happen on the 27th of Feb. It was all bvr.

The r73e was unable to be fired as he was constantly being jammed so much so he had no idea where he was when he was shot down.

It's impossible for him to have fired his r73e in the first place when all missiles have been recovered. Plus he was engaged at more than 30km away which is the MAX range of the r73e.

Also aewac and awac are the same thing.

But the awacs can only be able to detect the launch if it's actually there. Looking at the small size of Indias awac fleet, I think it's safe to say it won't be able to cover most of the air ops launched by ur air force.

Just because we, as civillains, don't know which hmds will be used doesn't mean those actually making and flying the jet don't know either. They most certainly do.

Jf17blk1 doesn't really exist anymore. They are all blk2 standard. Plus pl10 would most likely be integrated since we are gonna be integrating aesa radars into our blk2 aircraft.

Also also just because you don't know about the roadmap doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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## Anik101

LCA Mk2 render

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## Anik101



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## MirageBlue

Anik101 said:


>



Looks like a Photoshopped image. What's the source?

Big news, though it's not from an official source, so take this news with some caution..however, it is true that the Tejas Mk1 has now undergone trials confirming it's potency in "very challenging" scenarios with Derby BVRAAM and Python V CCMs. This might convince the IAF to move No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron to a base on the Western sector.

The news about the second No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron being meant to replace No.51 'Sword Arms' squadron based at Srinagar AFS is interesting. Had read this earlier as well, that the IAF meant to replace the Bisons at Srinagar AFS with Tejas Mk1s.

Twitter link






> The IAF will start deploying indigenously developed Tejas on the western front by mid this year frm their home base in Sulur. Tejas temporarily had deployed in the western front close to the Pak border last yr bt that not permanent. 2nd squadron at the home base in Sulur,





> with more aircraft in the pipeline to be delivered in the next 2 months, the first squadron will move to the western front base to make space for the second squadron. FOC variant of the Second squadron is likely to be posted at Srinagar AF Base to replace the Mig-21 squadron.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Superb image by Raghav Kidambi on Twitter!




#4 in the FOC line

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## Anik101

MirageBlue said:


> Looks like a Photoshopped image. What's the source?


Photoshopped


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## MirageBlue

Onboard Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) being trialed on a Tejas Mk1 Prototype Vehicle..which means it most likely is intended for the Tejas Mk1A..










OBOGS plus air to air refueling will give a massive increase in the range and endurance of Tejas Mk1A fighters since they won't run short of liquid oxygen carried in cylinders in the fighter.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1





I had seen this article earlier but forgot about it. Reading it once again somewhat convinced me that the latest Derby trials from the Tejas Mk1 off Goa coast were with the new I-Derby ER extended range BVRAAM. That's what the "enhanced capabilities" referred to in all the official press reports.

So "official sources" confirmed to Janes back in May 2019, that the IAF would be acquiring I-Derby-ER BVRAAMs from Israel to equip the Tejas Mk1s.

We may see this new missile equipping Su-30MKIs in the future, replacing the R-77 stocks that may be nearing their operational end of life.

IAF plans to arm it's Su-30MKI fleet with I-Derby ER BVRAAMs



> The Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to arm its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters with the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) once the service phases out its ageing Russian-made Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) AAMs by 2021–22.
> 
> *Official sources told Jane’s that the IAF is in talks with Rafael to acquire the active radar-guided I-Derby ER, which has a range of 100 km, adding that the procurement process for the missiles could be finalised “imminently”.
> 
> The latest developments come after the fire-and-forget I-Derby ER missile, which features a software-defined radar seeker and a dual-pulse solid rocket motor, was selected to be the primary AAM to arm the IAF’s indigenously designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) following successful test-firings in July 2018.*
> 
> An earlier version of the Derby, which can be configured as a surface-to-air missile, is also part of the IAF’s 18 Spyder-SR air-defence systems acquired from Rafael in 2008–09 for an estimated USD1 billion.
> 
> Delivery of the Spyder-SR systems, which included 750 Derby missiles, began in 2012 and was completed three years later.
> 
> The Indian Navy was the first to integrate an older Derby variant onto its since-retired Sea Harrier FRS Mk 51 carrier-borne fighters from 2005–06.

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## Lord Of Gondor

MirageBlue said:


> We may see this new missile equipping Su-30MKIs in the future, replacing the R-77 stocks that may be nearing their operational end of life.
> 
> IAF plans to arm it's Su-30MKI fleet with I-Derby ER BVRAAMs


Unlikely as the Astra is in serial production for the MiG series and Su(along with other fleets but others already have superb missiles)
The costs of integration(CFD studies, fee for Rafael/NIIP/Su Irkutsk, flight trials across envelopes, certification etc) may be prohibitive
Even for BraMos integration, costs were borne by HAL and still cost us >$10 Million (Russian demand at $200M)


IIRC, for the Su+Ukranian R-77 vs Mirage+MICA, A2A tactics was to overwhelm to try and negate advantages of the Mirages(Pilots/quality of ICMS Mk-3,RDY-2,MICA etc) and exploit the Su advantages(Better awareness/endurance/loads)
Astra already handsomely out ranges any known solid fuel Active A2A missile with the IAF so not too bad in that domain.

Will still be great if a Meteor integration can happen though.(Dream-1, Reality-0 )

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Unlikely as the Astra is in serial production for the MiG series and Su(along with other fleets but others already have superb missiles)
> The costs of integration(CFD studies, fee for Rafael/NIIP/Su Irkutsk, flight trials across envelopes, certification etc) may be prohibitive
> Even for BraMos integration, costs were borne by HAL and still cost us >$10 Million (Russian demand at $200M)
> 
> 
> IIRC, for the Su+Ukranian R-77 vs Mirage+MICA, A2A tactics was to overwhelm to try and negate advantages of the Mirages(Pilots/quality of ICMS Mk-3,RDY-2,MICA etc) and exploit the Su advantages(Better awareness/endurance/loads)
> Astra already handsomely out ranges any known solid fuel Active A2A missile with the IAF so not too bad in that domain.
> 
> Will still be great if a Meteor integration can happen though.(Dream-1, Reality-0 )



You never know about Meteor integration..I read somewhere that the UK is offering a JV with India for Meteor Mk2, on lines similar to their JV with Japan which puts an AESA seeker on a Meteor for the JASDF.


SP-26 on it's first flight! This is the 7th Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter..6 should have been handed over to the No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron. 






Twitter link



> LCA Tejas growling back home!
> @IAF_MCC
> 
> @HALHQBLR
> #indianairforce #tejas

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## MirageBlue

Amazing picture of a Tejas during trials to test what happens if a tire bursts..








> Experimental Flights are challenging... Superb pic
> by Sanjay Simha



Twitter link

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## Arulmozhi Varman

MirageBlue said:


> You never know about Meteor integration..I read somewhere that the UK is offering a JV with India for Meteor Mk2, on lines similar to their JV with Japan which puts an AESA seeker on a Meteor for the JASDF.
> 
> 
> SP-26 on it's first flight! This is the 7th Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter..6 should have been handed over to the No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter link



Seems IAF is holding off delivery of new jets as of now in view of current financial crunch. HAL is utilising this time to update all the software patch and new weapons integration right now which could have been done even after delivery.


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC with R-73E CCMs

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## Lord Of Gondor

> DRDO Uttam AESA Fire Control Radar installed for testing on Hawker 800 commercial ac converted into a flying testbed with a modified nose. Half of recently ordered LCA MK1A will be fitted with Uttam AESA radar. Additionally 2 LCA ac are already flying with Uttam radar for tests


Credits to Twitter user @I30MKI
Image is probably scanned from a DRDO publication, would really like to see a HD image though.
Remembered the image thanks to Amit Kashyap's video

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## MirageBlue

> #Tejas with Griffin Laser Guided Bomb (Griffin LGB), Rafael's lighting pod and R-73E WVR-AAM

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## MirageBlue

Cockpit of the PV-2, one of the much older Tejas prototypes (it was followed by PV-3 and then 8 LSP prototypes, apart from the trainer prototypes)

Link



> Some nice oldies of the LCA PV-2 cockpit taken around 2006--- ofcourse things have changed dramatically since then.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Om Shanti to Dr. Srinath Kumar, his contributions to the LCA program will be forever remembered.
Reading his bio is humbling








Images and details shared by Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar on Twitter
Must have been very proud that the journey from an ambitious Technology Demonstrator till a $6.5 Billion Order was in his glorious lifetime

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## CONNAN

Indian Aviation community shall always remember him for the leadership and accomplishments he provided in successful development of flight control laws for India’s first ever fly-by-wire fighter aircraft LCA. He shall continue to be the source of inspiration for the young scientists and engineers .
Eigenstructure Control Algorithms: Applications to aircraft / rotorcraft handling qualities - one of his best contributions - Rest in peace dear sir


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## MirageBlue

Tejas trainer from Aero India







Lord Of Gondor said:


> Om Shanti to Dr. Srinath Kumar, his contributions to the LCA program will be forever remembered.
> Reading his bio is humbling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images and details shared by Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar on Twitter
> Must have been very proud that the journey from an ambitious Technology Demonstrator till a $6.5 Billion Order was in his glorious lifetime



His name is even mentioned in AVM Philip Rajkumar's excellent book on the Tejas. It is amazing how small a group it was, those that began working on the CLAW (Control Laws) for the LCA. 

Dr Srinath's work will be seeing action for decades. His work formed the bedrock of the FCS for the LCA, which will serve 40 years, and form the foundation for the FCS on the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA, which will serve into the 2070s and further, much more than our own lifetimes.

May his soul rest in eternal peace.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas trainer with Mehrangarh fort in the backdrop..

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful! Tejas Mk1 FOC Series Production fighter taking to the skies.

SP-2X? Not sure which SP this is since the number was blanked out by the photographer. But the picture was taken on March 27, 2021. 





Tejas Mk1..bombs away!

As per Air Marshal Nambiar, the Tejas Mk1 has absolutely NO ISSUES when it comes to air to ground weapons delivery accuracy. Tejas scored the highest air to ground range scores of all IAF fighters during Exercise Gagan Shakti, beating Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000 units.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas during an air display routine

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## Prince Kassad



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## Anik101



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## MirageBlue

Cmde Jaydeep Maolankar has retired from Indian Navy service. The most well known of the NFTC's Test Pilots, he has had the longest association with the Naval LCA flight test program.











Cmde Maolankar was the first pilot ever to land a Naval LCA on the SBTF (Shore Based Test Facility) in INS Hansa in Goa and also the first pilot ever to land a Naval LCA on the INS Vikramaditya.

This image was him in the LCA Navy NP-2 on INS Vikramaditya.










Mao Sir landing NP-1 on the SBTF landing strip and trapping the arrestor wire on the very first go.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas taking off from the highest airfield of Leh in Ladakh.










Image has been enhanced..Tejas taking off from Taneja Aerospace's (TAAL) private airfield near Hosur

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## MirageBlue

From the backseat of a Tejas trainer..pic credit Grp Cpt HV Thakur (retired)

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 with Grp Cpt Manish Tolani, CO of No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron, at the controls during a flying display at Aero India 2021






pic credit in pic itself

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## MirageBlue

Wanna Play? 











Tejas TP's patch with the I-Derby screaming away to it's unfortunate target.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Tejas with the center line DT!




Image shared by Grp Capt HV Thakur on Twitter, image by Praneeth Franklin

The Tanks are GFRP made and have certified life of 3000 Flying hours
Twin 1200 L tanks flanking the 725 L center line DT

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Tejas with the center line DT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image shared by Grp Capt HV Thakur on Twitter, image by Praneeth Franklin
> 
> The Tanks are GFRP made and have certified life of 3000 Flying hours
> Twin 1200 L tanks flanking the 725 L center line DT


Given that it's equipped with a IFR probe and paint looks immaculate, it is a FOC Tejas Mk1 of the No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron.

3 drop tanks, that's the ferry configuration. Tejas Mk1 has a ferry range of ~1750 km without in-flight refueling.

*And in other good news..*

Tejas Mk1 integration with Astra Mk1 BVRAAM is confirmed. Apparently there will be captive carry and firing trials of 4-5 Astra Mk1 missiles. Currently this is with the Israeli Elta 2032 MSA radar.

Will also equip the Tejas Mk1A with the Elta 2052 AESA radar



> Indian state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) had confirmed in the past that Indigenous Astra Mk1 beyond visual range air to air missile integration work with a Limited Series Production (LSP) Tejas Mk1 is presently being carried out, Industrial sources, do confirm that captive flight trials of the missile might happen in next few weeks that includes 4-5 rounds of test-firing that has been planned with the present ELTA-LRDE 2032/MMR Fire control Radar (FCR) soon after that.



Astra Mk1 integration with Tejas Mk1 nears completion, both Israeli FCR to be enabled.

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## ejaz007

*India set to ink $700 mn fighter jet engine deal with US soon*

The American engines already power the Mk1 variant of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is already in service with the IAF and would smoothly fit into the latest version of the indigenous fighter




Negotiations are almost over for the engines that will be used to power the homegrown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)

BusinessToday.In

Jul 14, 2021,
Updated Jul 14, 2021, 2:22 PM IST

India is all set to ink another major defence deal with the United States (US), to acquire fighter jet engines worth $700 million. 


Negotiations are almost over for the engines that will be used to power the homegrown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). 

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will buy a total of 83 jet engines of the LCA Mk1A version from General Electric (GE). All issues pertaining to supply have been straightened out and India will soon place an order for 100 of the GE 404 engines, sources told the Economic Times. 

The American engines already power the Mk1 variant of the LCA that is already in service with the IAF and would smoothly fit into the latest version of the indigenous fighter. 

The contract with GE is likely to be signed this year. If the deal comes through, this will be the biggest defence deal with the US since February 2020 when India placed orders to procure Apache attack choppers and MH-60 Sikorsky Romeo multi-role helicopters during a visit by then President Donald Trump.
Although the deal doesn't comprise transfer of technology, efforts are underway to build a domestic fighter jet engine for the future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. 

Spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the project envisions a partnership either with England or France to together develop critical engine technology in order to power all future air force fighters.

India in February this year inked a Rs 48,000 crore deal to acquire indigenous LCA Tejas Mk1A fighter jets with state-run aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The mega order was the biggest ever single defence contract signed with an Indian manufacturer and would include various private sector companies as well.









India set to ink $700 mn fighter jet engine deal with US soon


The American engines already power the Mk1 variant of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is already in service with the IAF and would smoothly fit into the latest version of the indigenous fighter




www.businesstoday.in

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## Lord Of Gondor

A rare documentary on the Tejas(Then LCA)
You can see the current CAS, ACM RKS Bhadauria in the cockpit of the LCA as a TP
Also seen in the video is another legend of Indian TPs, Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar
He was the Air Attache in Islamabad in the 80s and also flew for the Iraqi Air Force during the Iran Iraq war.

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> A rare documentary on the Tejas(Then LCA)
> You can see the current CAS, ACM RKS Bhadauria in the cockpit of the LCA as a TP
> Also seen in the video is another legend of Indian TPs, Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar
> He was the Air Attache in Islamabad in the 80s and also flew for the Iraqi Air Force during the Iran Iraq war.



Thank you for posting this here. The level of technology developed in India for the LCA program is the reason why there are now 3 new almost clean sheet fighter designs (Tejas Mk2, TEBDF and AMCA) and 1 new upgrade program (Tejas Mk1A) all going on simultaneously. 

This program could have been much less ambitious and with less scope of work within India, but then we'd be looking for foreign partners now in areas where we are developing it on our own.

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## Arabwarrior

Lord Of Gondor said:


> A rare documentary on the Tejas(Then LCA)
> You can see the current CAS, ACM RKS Bhadauria in the cockpit of the LCA as a TP
> Also seen in the video is another legend of Indian TPs, Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar
> He was the Air Attache in Islamabad in the 80s and also flew for the Iraqi Air Force during the Iran Iraq war.



everybody is claiming they flew for Iraqi airforce during iraq-iran war without presenting any proof. at that time Iraq never suffered a shortage of well trained combat ready Iraqi pilots.

Iraq airforce when hearing that Indian B.S be like holly incredible cow dung.

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## KapitaanAli

He was an instructor for Iraqis along with another guy.

Stop crying. It will be a while before Arab countries will stop needing foreign instructors.

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## MirageBlue

Flying Daggers.

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## MirageBlue

FOC Tejas of the No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets' is regularly flying with 3 drop tanks now..

pic credit - GaurAviation

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## MirageBlue

Tejas LSP prototype employing air brakes on landing..this is not a squadron bird. Can make out from the peeling paint.

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## HostileInsurgent



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## MirageBlue

HostileInsurgent said:


> View attachment 764070
> View attachment 764071
> View attachment 764074
> View attachment 764073



The Tejas Mk2 looks amazing. Couldn't have asked for a better Mk2 variant for the IAF for the next 50 years. 

And Kuntal Biswas' renderings are simply superb, the minute attention to detail.

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## HostileInsurgent

MirageBlue said:


> The Tejas Mk2 looks amazing. Couldn't have asked for a better Mk2 variant for the IAF for the next 50 years.
> 
> And Kuntal Biswas' renderings are simply superb, the minute attention to detail.


But we’re getting slow


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## MirageBlue

HAL will be responding to Malaysia's RFP for Light fighters by September 2021.. So much for that BS report that FA-50 and JF-17 were the finalists for this contest.

They are offering the Tejas Mk1A, most likely with the indigenous Uttam AESA radar in place of the Israeli Elta 2052. For weapons, I'd expect the Astra Mk1 and Mk2 to be offered along with the ASRAAM in place the Israeli Derby BVRAAM and Python-V WVRAAM.

Price will be $42 million fly-away with an additional 30-40% on top for setting up infrastructure to support the type including training, spares, logistics, ground equipment for repairs, etc.

HAL is all set to respond to RMAF's RFP for Light fighters



> By the end of September 2021, the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is expected to respond to a Request for Proposal (RfP) from the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF). The Malaysian Air Force has sent out a global request for low-cost light fighter aircraft.
> 
> Speaking on condition of anonymity, a top officer has confirmed to _Financial Express Online_ “The Company will be responding to the RfP from RMAF for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) `Tejas’. And it has to be sent at the end of September.”
> 
> As has been reported earlier this year, on the sidelines of the 13th edition of Aero-India, R Madhavan, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), has told Financial Express Online that “Several Southeast Asian and Middle East countries evinced interest in the indigenous LCA `Tejas’ Mk 1A fighter aircraft.”
> 
> “At a vanilla price of just Rs 309 crore per aircraft, the export version of the fighters are going to be different from those which are going to be inducted in the Indian Air Force (IAF),” he added.
> 
> While the aircraft will be exported at the price of Rs 309 crore (making it the cheapest fighter globally), there will be extra charges for the services to be provided overseas.
> 
> 
> According to a top officer, “The production rate for this increased requirement by IAF is being augmented by HAL from 8 to 16 aircraft every year through the creation of a state-of-the-art new facility in Bengaluru.”
> 
> Tejas would have the highest level of indigenisation in comparison to any programme of this scale with progressive indigenisation of critical technologies, thereby making India a technologically self-reliant nation. The programme would check out the developing technologies indigenously.
> 
> “LCA-Tejas program follows the system integrator model and has created a national aerospace ecosystem with the participation of more than 560 companies from large to SMEs which encompass all the facets of aircraft design and manufacturing. It is estimated that once the LCA MK1A program in India kicks-off, primary jobs to a tune of 5000 are expected to be generated across the country. The programme will foster local industry and drive skill development of young Indian workforce.”
> 
> 
> “More than 200 Indian companies are involved in tooling, GSEs, and GHEs supplies for the program. Till date the LCA program is estimated to have produced 50,000 primary and secondary jobs across the nation. And, in the country’s aerospace history, the LCA-program enabled partnership with Indian private players manufacturing aircraft fuselage and wings. Some of the major companies contributing in the LCA programme from the private sector are VEMv technologies, L&T, DTL, Alpha Toccol, TAML, Data Patterns, Pendios, Compupower and many others,” said the officer quoted above.
> 
> *What is Malaysia looking at?*
> 
> The country is planning to buy 36 light combat aircraft (LCA) which will be added to its existing fleets in the Air Force.
> 
> According to reports, Malaysia is assessing India’s Tejas, Chinese JF-17 and F/A 50 of South Korea.


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## Indos

MirageBlue said:


> HAL will be responding to Malaysia's RFP for Light fighters by September 2021.. So much for that BS report that FA-50 and JF-17 were the finalists for this contest.
> 
> They are offering the Tejas Mk1A, most likely with the indigenous Uttam AESA radar in place of the Israeli Elta 2052. For weapons, I'd expect the Astra Mk1 and Mk2 to be offered along with the ASRAAM in place the Israeli Derby BVRAAM and Python-V WVRAAM.
> 
> Price will be $42 million fly-away with an additional 30-40% on top for setting up infrastructure to support the type including training, spares, logistics, ground equipment for repairs, etc.
> 
> HAL is all set to respond to RMAF's RFP for Light fighters



India needs to provide financing as well if they want to win the tender


----------



## Arabwarrior

KapitaanAli said:


> He was an instructor for Iraqis along with another guy.
> 
> Stop crying. It will be a while before Arab countries will stop needing foreign instructors.



I know lots of Iraqi veteran pilots who fought during Iraq- Iran war and they are amused with this Indian lie. 

again you Indians keep lying without packing up your lies with proofs. 

as for Arab countries depending on foreign instructors, isn't that a common practice for countries all over the world who buy new toys and need training for it?

at least Arabs don't hold the world record in crashing their birds 24/7 like Indian pilots.


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## RPK

Indos said:


> India needs to provide financing as well if they want to win the tender



Malaysia has Trade surplus with India. Also most of their Su-30 overhaled and maintained by HAL

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## Indos

RPK said:


> Malaysia has Trade surplus with India. Also most of their Su-30 overhaled and maintained by HAL



HAL already get fix order to build 100 tejas for Indian Air Force, they are not desperate to win the tender......

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## HostileInsurgent

Arabwarrior said:


> I know lots of Iraqi veteran pilots who fought during Iraq- Iran war and they are amused with this Indian lie.
> 
> again you Indians keep lying without packing up your lies with proofs.
> 
> as for Arab countries depending on foreign instructors, isn't that a common practice for countries all over the world who buy new toys and need training for it?
> 
> at least Arabs don't hold the world record in crashing their birds 24/7 like Indian pilots.


Why are you here for trolling and thread derailing? He was what he was now leave this BS.


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## RPK

Indos said:


> HAL already get fix order to build 100 tejas for Indian Air Force, they are not desperate to win the tender......


Yes Malaysia is pushing HAL, Not other way around

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## Arabwarrior

HostileInsurgent said:


> Why are you here for trolling and thread derailing? He was what he was now leave this BS.



people who lie are the real trollers. I agree lets leave BS.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk2 MWF in the wind tunnel. Must be an older picture, since the Mk2 is past metal cutting stage now, so the design is pretty much frozen.







Indos said:


> HAL already get fix order to build 100 tejas for Indian Air Force, they are not desperate to win the tender......



Why would they then respond to the RFP? South Koreans have won quite a few tenders, does that mean that they aren't desperate to win the Malaysian deal as well?

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## MirageBlue

Video of Naval LCA NP-2 (prototype 2, the single seater) on it's first flight.

Naval LCA NP-2 first flight

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## MirageBlue

VEM Technologies supplies the first center fuselage module to HAL. With this, the forward, center and rear fuselages are all being supplied by private sector companies to HAL, which will act as a system integrator.

Hyderabad's VEM Technologies manufactures center fuselage for Tejas












> *Hyderabad:* Hyderabad’s Aerospace and Defence company VEM Technologies, handed over the first ‘Centre Fuselage for Light Combat Aircraft – Tejas’ to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Monday.
> 
> VEM Technologies is the production partner for ‘Centre Fuselage’ fabricated in VEM with the support from HAL – LCA Division. The Centre Fuselage is assembled with 1595 parts of Mechanical and Composite structures certified by HAL QC and DGAQA.
> 
> 
> The state of the art infrastructure including the Hi-precision Machinery, Metallurgical Processes and Treatments and Pneumo-hydraulic systems, Fuel systems, Automated PCBAs, Composites, RF & MW, Electro-Optics and Electrical Integration facilities is established by the VEM to build the integrated systems for Land, Air and Naval Systems.
> 
> The dedicated line established for the productionisation of Centre Fuselage for LCA – Tejas is expected to deliver good volumes to HAL to fulfill the present and the future orders from Indian Armed Forces.
> 
> ..

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## MirageBlue

Summary :


First Flight of Tejas Mk1A set for March 2022
CEMILAC certification by mid 2023, after which HAL will begin production
Delivery schedule - First 2 aircraft in 2024 , 8 in 2025 and remaining to be supplied in batches of 14-16 fighters per year till 2029
GE engine deal to be announced next week. Expected to be worth $700 million. Took several rounds of negotiations and in the end a good deal has been secured
Mk1A Preliminary Design Review is completed 
Critical Design Review over for several systems like mission computer, digital map generator, digital flight control
HAL is integrating the AESA radar and EW integration on Tejas Mk1 FOC, after which it will be done on the Mk1A
Negotiation with all suppliers ongoing, target to reduce costs by 15-20% . November 2021 for raw materials purchase.
HAL is working with ADA for software changes
60% indigenous content compared to 50% now
Madhavan says that Mk1A will be the most advanced Tejas to date, and compares the 3 year lead time to deliver favourably with foreign OEMS

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## MirageBlue

Just a nice pic..

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## Lord Of Gondor

Deal is signed for the F 404 IN20 engines numbering 99!








Cost per engine comes to approx 53 Crores
Also great to read that the F 414INS6 will be made in India!

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## Lord Of Gondor

Although not apples to apples, HAL supplied RD-33 Series 3 engines (made in India with ToT) at a cost of ~ 10 Crores per engine(2006 money)
Tried finding the costs for the HAL built Adours(811/871) but so far unsuccessful.
Edit: CAG report of 2017 says one Adour 871(non afterburning) costs ~33Crores(but order size is tiny,10 examples)
So maybe around 25-30 Crore (guess) per Adour

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## MirageBlue

Tejas flares...

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## MirageBlue

For what it's worth..seems like the IN may finally be planning on an order of 18 dedicated LCA Navy Mk1 dual seat trainers. These have already been tested and qualified on the INS Vikramaditya. Would make a lot of sense to order these and offload the training load from the MiG-29KUBs.











LCA Navy Mk1- Navy considering establishing carrier training squadron

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## MirageBlue

Tejas trainer landing..






Tejas trainer taking off with a Litening LD pod..

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## Surya 1

Anik101 said:


> I-Derby ER was also test fired along with python 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO conducts maiden trial of Python-5 Air to Air Missile
> 
> 
> Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missil
> 
> 
> 
> pib.gov.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW python5 is one of the best WVRAAM in the world with 360° engagement capability. By the end of this year Tejas will be capable of firing R73 Archer, i-derby, Astra mk1, ASRAAM, Python5, i-derby ER.



It is a baap of all close combat missile.

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## MirageBlue

Surya 1 said:


> It is a baap of all close combat missile.



Python 5 has very high off-bore sight ability so yes it is really deadly within WVR range. Pilots in opposing fighters will find it near impossible to shake off a Python 5 fired at them from 10-15 km range. Very hard to spoof it as well, due to the dual IR and UV band seeker.

But the ASRAAM offers longer range and a larger motor size so basically can take down targets at near BVR range. It also has a much larger NEZ than the Python V due to the larger motor giving it much greater acceleration and range. Also has an imaging seeker, which will be very hard to spoof.

Also, an ASRAAM has actually tested an OTS (Over The Shoulder) shot successfully. In 2009 an RAAF F/A-18 destroyed a test target 5 km behind it using ASRAAM, demonstrating a real ‘over the shoulder’ capability.

Actually even the R-73E is deadly in combination with a HMDS. But it is now growing old and the newer generation missiles are able to pull even more Gs and have better IIR seekers. And the IAF isn't seemingly interested in the R-73E's Russian replacement, the RVV-MD (R-74M). The R-74M basically has a new two-band IR seeker that increases off-bore-sight angles to +/-60 and extends acquisition range to 15-20km. Could also be related to the Ukranian-Russian relations being poor, which meant that the Ukranian seeker had to be replaced with a Russian one, which I don't think has been done as yet.
*
Basically the Tejas with it's DASH HMDS and Python 5, R-73E or ASRAAM will be deadly and best avoided by any fighter in WVR.*

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 flying slow to keep up with the slow flying HTT-40, HJT-36 Sitara and Hawk-i prototype

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## MirageBlue

IAF ACM RKS Bhadauria flying solo on a Tejas Mk1 from No.45 'Flying Daggers' at Bangalore..



> IAF chief on his farewell rounds, seen here before a solo sortie in a Tejas at Bengaluru. Has been one of the strongest proponents of the Tejas and aviation indigenisation. Much work ahead.



Twitter link

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## RPK



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## m52k85

MirageBlue said:


> IAF ACM RKS Bhadauria flying solo on a Tejas Mk1 from No.45 'Flying Daggers' at Bangalore..
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter link


Great going, shows confidence of leadership in own product, great inspiration for the young cadre.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas, HTT-40s, HJT-36 and Hawk-i fly past display for Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.

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## MirageBlue

HJT-36 Sitara, HTT-40 and Tejas Mk1

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1
pic credit - Praneeth Franklin

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## MirageBlue

Light it up!

Twitter link

pic credit - Gaurav Shetty

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## Lord Of Gondor

MirageBlue said:


> It is a big day for Indian aviation. *The last time an indigenous fighter was deployed in a combat role at the border was when HF-24 Maruts were still in service*. That is of course if we discount the Ajeet, which was an indigenous development of the Gnat.
> 
> Times of India is also reporting it as are other national newspapers, so it seems genuine. The No.45 Squadron Tejas fighters have apparently been deployed at forward air bases since June 2020.
> 
> Livefist is coming out with an article on this news shortly.


Spectacular images shared by the ETP Grp Capt HV Thakur




Rocket assisted take off(RATO) on the Marut

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## surya kiran

m52k85 said:


> Great going, shows confidence of leadership in own product, great inspiration for the young cadre.



He was one of the earliest test pilots associated with the LCA program. Hence, the familiarity and confidence with the aircraft.


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## MirageBlue

Stunningly well done CG render of the Tejas Mk2 by Kuntal Biswas. Can't wait to see the first prototype roll out next year..





Naval LCA Mk1 trainer..beauty!

pic credit - Gauraviation

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## MirageBlue

LCA Navy Mk1 trainer..with the IN's Hawk Mk132 AJT. There is a good chance that the LCA Navy Mk1 trainer will become a LIFT for the Indian Navy.

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## MirageBlue

Uttam AESA radar's performance is quite impressive..detecting another Tejas fighter (which has a RCS far smaller than the regular 5 sq meter used as baseline) at 82 NM or 150 km.






And HAL has signed an MoU with LRDE (the lab that designed and built the Uttam AESA radar prototypes) for ToT related to Uttam AESA. HAL will be the lead integrator of this radar on Tejas. 



> Interesting.
> @HALHQBLR
> &
> @DRDO_India
> have also signed a MoU for transfer of technology related to LRDE's Uttam AESA fighter radar, for which HAL will be the lead integrator.



Twitter link
And HAL has signed a MoU with MMTC in India for palm oil imports from Malaysia as a barter against possible Tejas Mk1A sale. 

From HAL's Annual Report 



> From the latest
> @HALHQBLR
> Annual Report: 'MoU signed with with Ms MMTC as channelizing partner for import of palm oil, for likely countertrade for sale of LCA-Tejas to Royal Malaysian Air force.'



Twitter link

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## MirageBlue

From HAL's annual report. 

1. LCA shortlisted by RMAF and RFI issued to HAL. Response to the RFI was re-validated in June 2020. 
2. LCA offered as LIFT to the Australian DoD in July 2020
3. LCA Navy Mk1 trainer offered as LIFT to the US Navy in July 2020

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## Lord Of Gondor

> ACM Bhadauria's staff officer, Air Vice Marshal N Tiwari, rebutted criticism that the Tejas LCA had taken too long to be developed. AVM Tewari said the first 4-5 years in the Tejas fighter's design and development cycle went into setting up testing and production facilities that are essential for aircraft development programmes. "*Today, if we are ready to move forward in developing a next-generation fighter, it is because the Tejas programme gave us a core critical mass*," said AVM Tiwari. AVM Tiwari, who has flown more than 200 sorties as a Tejas test pilot, said the LCA was ambitiously conceived as a technologically state-of-the-art fighter. Its unstable design, quadruplex flight control system, computerised utilities management system and an air frame made of composite materials make it contemporary even today, he said. An unstable design makes a fighter aircraft more manoeuvrable than one with a stable design, since stability tends to resist sharp manoeuvres. However, an unstable design requires a highly reliable flight computer to prevent the fighter from going into an unstoppable spin. "*When I get feedback from the Tejas squadron today, the pilots are uniformly happy with the way the plane flies, and how well integrated it is for the pilot*," said AVM Tiwari. "*We have a fighter that incorporates the best of the Russian and the Western fighter design philosophies*.
> *He gave the example of the autopilot, which, in Russian fighters, allows a disoriented pilot to return his fighter to level flight by simply pressing a 'level mode' button -- a facility that Western fighters, such as the Mirage 2000, do not have. This feature has been incorporated into the Tejas fighter*


https://m.rediff.com/amp/news/report/iaf-plans-350-aircraftover-next-20-years/20210909.htm
AVM Tiwari after flying RM Rajnath Singh on the Tejas trainer

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> https://m.rediff.com/amp/news/report/iaf-plans-350-aircraftover-next-20-years/20210909.htm
> AVM Tiwari after flying RM Rajnath Singh on the Tejas trainer



This is what matters most to the Tejas program and is the reason why the IAF is enthusiastic about the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA and IN has opted to go ahead with TEDBF.



> *"When I get feedback from the Tejas squadron today, the pilots are uniformly happy with the way the plane flies, and how well integrated it is for the pilot," said AVM Tiwari. "We have a fighter that incorporates the best of the Russian and the Western fighter design philosophies."*
> 
> He gave the example of the autopilot, which, in Russian fighters, allows a disoriented pilot to return his fighter to level flight by simply pressing a 'level mode' button -- a facility that Western fighters, such as the Mirage 2000, do not have. This feature has been incorporated into the Tejas fighter.



Basically every pilot that's flown the Tejas loves how it handles. The avionics is great and improving with each iteration. Flight Safety is another topic where it is top notch. All the ingredients for a successful pedigree of fighters evolving from the Tejas Mk1.



Best ever air to air shots of the Tejas..simply stunning!

Twitter link



> "Here Comes the Sun, And I say it's all Right" On Popular Demand.... #LocalHeroes #BeLikeTejas #MediaShy #RunUpToThe89th
> 
> Pics Flt Lt DS Sekhon



All these are in IAF service as can be made out by the serial number that starts with LA..

Tejas Mk1 IOC from No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron..













Tejas Mk1 FOC from No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron..

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## MirageBlue

Another stunning air to air shot of the Tejas Mk1 FOC (with the refueling probe) from No.18 Squadron and 2 Tejas Mk1 IOC fighters from No.45 Squadron. 





Tejas trainer air to air shot!

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## Lord Of Gondor

brand new Tejas FOC




Image by Gaurav Shetty on Twitter

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## Ali_Baba

beijingwalker said:


> *PM Modi warns UN to stay relevant as China-Pak axis indulges in proxy war, stoke Afghan crisis*



Build quality still looks poor - you would have thought for FOC aircraft - HAL would raise their game and manufacture them to a higher quality standard. 

Compared with the pristine JF17s coming out of Kamra - the poor quality from HAL is shocking.


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## MirageBlue

Ali_Baba said:


> Build quality still looks poor - you would have thought for FOC aircraft - HAL would raise their game and manufacture them to a higher quality standard.
> 
> Compared with the pristine JF17s coming out of Kamra - the poor quality from HAL is shocking.



On the contrary..the build quality is superb and I have seen it from up close to attest to the fact. No dimpling, no surface waves and very close tolerances. I was lucky enough to see it parked next to a French fighter and there is barely much difference. 

It also has among the highest percentage of composites used in the skin means a smoother finish and no bent panels like on earlier generation MiG jets.

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> brand new Tejas FOC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image by Gaurav Shetty on Twitter



This must be SP-27 or SP-28. Basically the 7th or 8th FOC fighter, since the SP-26 fighter was seen during the Vice President's visit and it was already in IAF grey color scheme.

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## MirageBlue

Spectacular air to air shot of the Tejas Mk1 FOC variant, regn number LA 5118 (SP-21) from No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron..pilot's Ebit DASH HMDS is clearly visible in the pic.

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## MirageBlue

Screen grab of the Tejas Mk1 FOC from the IAF's anniversary trailer





Tejas pilot with his patch

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## MirageBlue

Stunning shot of 2 No.45 Squadron Tejas Mk1s

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 flying with Rafale and Mirage-2000 - cockpit video

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## Zapper

The composite materials content on the LCA is extremely high among fighter aircraft - surpassed only by the EF Typhoon.

From a Boeing publication:

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## Lord Of Gondor

Padma Shri Dr Kota Harinarayana, the father of the Tejas programme on the current status of Tejas




A very interesting tid bit is that the if the FCS fails then the Tejas has 300 milli seconds to recover! 
A very complex FBW Unstable design by choice

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## MirageBlue

Amazing! 14 Tejas Mk1 fighters (4 FOC Tejas Mk1s from No.18 squadron and 10 IOC Mk1s from No.45 Squadron) flew together from Sulur AFS. IAF organized an elephant walk for these 14 as well.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1s elephant walk..from No.45 and No.18 Squadrons

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## baqai

walk shalk karwa kai dakaar dilwa kar wapis bandh diya?


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## MirageBlue

Tejas updates from Anantha Krishnan on his show

-HAL has delivered 6 FOC fighters to the IAF. 
- Delivered fighters are SP-20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 (IAF registration numbers LA-5017, LA-5018, LA-5019, LA-5020, LA-5021, LA-5022)
- Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-27 and 28 are in flight testing as of now
- Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-29 and 30 are in final stages of production
- Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-31, 32, 33, 34 are in various stages of equipping
- SP-35, 36 will join after that but their current status of build was not disclosed.

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas updates from Anantha Krishnan on his show
> 
> -HAL has delivered 6 FOC fighters to the IAF.
> - Delivered fighters are SP-20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 (IAF registration numbers LA-5017, LA-5018, LA-5019, LA-5020, LA-5021, LA-5022)
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-27 and 28 are in flight testing as of now
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-29 and 30 are in final stages of production
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-31, 32, 33, 34 are in various stages of equipping
> - SP-35, 36 will join after that but their current status of build was not disclosed.




Any news concerning the Mk. 2 prototype?


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## CONNAN

Deino said:


> Any news concerning the Mk. 2 prototype?


Tejas Mark II is likely to roll out by August-September of 2022 . The first high-speed trial of the jet will start in 2023 and we expect the production to start somewhere around 2025 as per last update in BR

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## khanasifm




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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Any news concerning the Mk. 2 prototype?



Yes it's in fabrication stage apparently with some parts production having been started..as of now the target to get the first Tejas Mk2 prototype rolled out by 2022 August is still on.

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## MirageBlue

Fuselage of the last Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter (SP-36) seen on the assembly line floor.



> From the sets of #HamaraTejasFlag of India shoot. #GuruKota in action at one of the ##LCA assembly lines of #HAL. The fuselage of last fighter from FOC block (SP-36) is seen. We've decided to change the show pattern for episodes 5 to 8, which will go live till December 1st week. #Avgeeks

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter conducting buddy refueling from a Su-30MKI. 

Anantha Krishnan had already confirmed that all In flight refueling trials from a tanker and buddy refueling were completed.

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## MirageBlue

3 Tejas Mk1 fighters (2 FOC and 1 IOC) from No.18 Squadron are in Dubai for the Dubai Air Show.






















No.18 Squadron CO Group Capt. Manish Tolani

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## Arulmozhi Varman

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas updates from Anantha Krishnan on his show
> 
> -HAL has delivered 6 FOC fighters to the IAF.
> - Delivered fighters are SP-20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 (IAF registration numbers LA-5017, LA-5018, LA-5019, LA-5020, LA-5021, LA-5022)
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-27 and 28 are in flight testing as of now
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-29 and 30 are in final stages of production
> - Tejas Mk1 fighters SP-31, 32, 33, 34 are in various stages of equipping
> - SP-35, 36 will join after that but their current status of build was not disclosed.



J think Sp26 will be used as test bed for mk1A.


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## ssethii

MirageBlue said:


> 3 Tejas Mk1 fighters (2 FOC and 1 IOC) from No.18 Squadron are in Dubai for the Dubai Air Show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.18 Squadron CO Group Capt. Manish Tolani


This large probe in the front really hampers the cockpit visibility.


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## graphican

Any chance Tejas mod coming to DCS?


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter at the Dubai Air Show 2021

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 fighters to be integrated with French Sagem AASM Hammer PGMs. 

Will be a great addition to the PGM capability of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A. Costly but very capable and accurate stand-off bombs. 

Article link

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter aerobatics display at Dubai Air Show 2021

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## VkdIndian

A picture speaks thousand words.

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## Windjammer

VkdIndian said:


> A picture speaks thousand words.
> 
> View attachment 793922


The word is Pakistani Mashak Basic Turboprop Trainer Crew standing with Indian Tejas Fighter Jet Crew. 
Want to hear more.


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## VkdIndian

Windjammer said:


> The word is Pakistani Mashak Basic Turboprop Trainer Crew standing with Indian Tejas Fighter Jet Crew.
> Want to hear more.


I know. 
In some people’s mind, only way to allow someone to take a picture is after checking there credentials.
For few others it is a courtesy extended by seeing someone in uniform.


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC taking off..










Group Captain Manish Tolani, CO of No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron.

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## Ahmet Pasha

VkdIndian said:


> I know.
> In some people’s mind, only way to allow someone to take a picture is after checking there credentials.
> For few others it is a courtesy extended by seeing someone in uniform.


Yar wo sab theek hai. Lekin ketchup kid hai?


MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter aerobatics display at Dubai Air Show 2021


Who calls a fighter jet Dolly?
Fighter jet hai ya bhains(gao matta for Indians)??


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## Farhan Bohra

VkdIndian said:


> I know.
> In some people’s mind, only way to allow someone to take a picture is after checking there credentials.
> For few others it is a courtesy extended by seeing someone in uniform.


What professional courtesy? Where was that courtesy when they paraded Abhinandan on national tv, and violated the Geneva convention? I mean seriously, cmon.


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## VkdIndian

Farhan Bohra said:


> What professional courtesy? Where was that courtesy when they paraded Abhinandan on national tv, and violated the Geneva convention? I mean seriously, cmon.


Conflict situation is a different scenario. Even in camps set up for POWs, military protocol is followed (most of the time). Aberrations might happen.

But if your logic is followed then military personnel should get into hand to hand combat when they come across in the civi street. Is it?

At an event like an Airshow when you come across someone in military uniform then following of military protocol and extending general courtesy is not out of order. Professional defence forces follow that kind of thing.

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## Farhan Bohra

VkdIndian said:


> Conflict situation is a different scenario. Even in camps set up for POWs, military protocol is followed (most of the time). Aberrations might happen.
> 
> But if your logic is followed then military personnel should get into hand to hand combat when they come across in the civi street. Is it?
> 
> At an event like an Airshow when you come across someone in military uniform then following of military protocol and extending general courtesy is not out of order. Professional defence forces follow that kind of thing.


Can you show me, US forces showing "professional courtesy" to the Soviet's Red army or to PLA? Thekedaar hai world morality ke?


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## VkdIndian

Farhan Bohra said:


> Can you show me, US forces showing "professional courtesy" to the Soviet's Red army or to PLA? Thekedaar hai world morality ke?


If you Google you would come across scores of occasions when these personnel met and acknowledged each other with professional courtesy. On an occasion like an Airshow or similar event. There were definitely times when they met for negotiations and there were heated debates and eyeballing. Hence, it is the context that also comes in play.


Farhan Bohra said:


> Thekedaar hai world morality ke?


It may not be to your or my liking but then, here we are sitting on a keyboard and there professionals are doing what they know is the best.


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## Farhan Bohra

VkdIndian said:


> If you Google you would come across scores of occasions when these personnel met and acknowledged each other with professional courtesy. On an occasion like an Airshow or similar event. There were definitely times when they met for negotiations and there were heated debates and eyeballing. Hence, it is the context that also comes in play.
> 
> It may not be to your or my liking but then, here we are sitting on a keyboard and there professionals are doing what they know is the best.


SInce when does diplomacy become part of military professionals? So do we close down MEA?


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## VkdIndian

Farhan Bohra said:


> SInce when does diplomacy become part of military professionals?


Since time immemorial. Just that it is not the primary mode of diplomacy. 
The degree varies from nation to nation though.


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## ssethii




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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 

image credit - Praneeth Franklin

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## MirageBlue

HAL to offer the Tejas LIFT (Lead In Fighter Trainer) to Egypt. @Gomig-21 

In addition, HAL will respond to the Argentinians with an offer for the Tejas Mk1A, without 50 components that were sourced from the UK.

article link



> *Argentine interest in Tejas*
> 
> The Tejas is also on the radar of Buenos Aires, with Argentina in the market for 12 light fighters. HAL is pursuing the case, but there is a UK embargo – dating back to the Falklands War -- on the supply of British defence equipment to Argentina.
> 
> Argentina is believed to have gotten only two offers: one from the Chinese and a Letter of Intention from HAL to participate in the tender. This too appears to have become a JF-17 versus Tejas contest.
> 
> HAL will be required to replace several systems and sub-systems on the Tejas that are supplied by UK firms such as BAE Systems, Cobham and Martin-Baker.
> 
> “We will have to replace more than 50 systems and sub-systems -- such as the Martin-Baker ejection seat. In addition, we will have to test and certify the replacements we fit. There will be a cost attached with this,” says Madhavan.
> 
> HAL is working out the costs and hopes to inform Argentine before the end of November.



and the part about offering the Tejas trainer as a LIFT to Egypt. IAF is also interested in this type, for both LIFT role and as a platform for controlling the CATS (Combat Air Teaming System) Warrior drone and other UAVs.



> *Interest from Egypt*
> 
> Another reason for fielding the Tejas in the Dubai Air Show is to test the waters in West Asia. One possibility is Egypt, but that will require weaning Cairo off US platforms, which Washington has long supplied at subsidized rates.
> 
> “We are going to Egypt for that reason. The idea is to manufacture the Tejas there by setting up a factory for them over there,” says the HAL chief.







Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter final day aerobatics display at Dubai Air Show 2021

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## MirageBlue

Deccan Herald article on Tejas Mk2. 

- Indigenous content to go up to 70% from 62% on Mk1A
- 410 private firms to supply to the Tejas Mk2 program compared to 344 for the Tejas Mk1A
- Critical Design Review (CDR) was completed on Nov 15, with 20 sub-systems' CDR being done with IAF
- Metal cutting to start soon. Acquisition of components to start soon. Jigs and fixtures will be set up
- Targeted roll-out of Tejas Mk2 prototype in December 2022 (1 year from now, which is quite ambitious)
- First flight targeted in end 2023

Boon for Indian industries waiting in wings of LCA Mk2



> Cutting-edge technology and more indigenisation - This is the mandate of the LCA Tejas AF Mark 2 project which completed its Critical Design Review (CDR) this week. The clearance will allow hundreds of Indian private firms to participate in the most advanced aircraft project to date in the country.
> 
> ADA sources speaking with DH described the Mark 2 as a 4.5-generation machine that will not only have 70 per cent indigenisation (as opposed to the 62 per cent of the Mark IA), but will incorporate more advanced technologies to be built in India. “The aircraft’s increased indigenisation quotient will be increased by the replacement of imported components and systems with locally manufactured units,” said sources at the
> Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which is the nodal agency for the design and development of the LCA. “We have already ascertained that all the raw materials are available for production months ago. We will have 410 private firms across the country supplying Line Replacement Units (LRUs) and other components -- up from the 344 private firms for the Mark IA,” an ADA source said.
> 
> According to defence sources, the long-awaited CDR, which was supposed to happen in July, was finally completed on November 15, with up to 20 sub-systems being individually cleared by the Indian Air Force (IAF). “Metal cutting will soon start. The acquisition of components will start. In addition, jigs and fixtures will be set up. We are aiming for a rollout in December 2022, although the aircraft will not be moved and a first flight tentatively is fixed for the end of 2023,” an ADA source said, adding that the programme will benefit from the earlier Mark I project as many of the core technologies will be taken from from the project and superimposed on the new programme.

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## MirageBlue

Just a great CGI of the Tejas Mk2 MWF

Credit- Kuntal Biswas

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter - IAF regn number LA-5023, which means this is SP-27, the 7th FOC fighter. 9 more single seaters to go.






Image courtesy- Gaur.aviation

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## Farhan Bohra



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## Suriya

*Comparison with JF17*






*Hamara Tejas | Episode-3 | KH-AK show | IAF will be dominated by desi fighters in future: Dr Kota*







*Hamara Tejas | Episode-4 | KH-AK show | There's nothing Young India cannot achieve now: Guru Kota*

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## Maula Jatt

you are back?.... 
again....

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## Primus

Sainthood 101 said:


> you are back?....
> again....


I was just gonna say that lmao.

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## Bilal9

Suriya said:


>



I didn't have the patience to sit through these poorly produced fluff pieces for a less-than-spectacular airplane.

Why can't these people stop their wild motions with their hands ? What's up with that ??

The snippets I heard (wild claims) were,

- Foar Plass gen Tek-na-lajee !
- Owar ninetee pursent com-pa-zeet ! etc.

So this is the Indian expert Dr. Kota designing this thing and there is no deep-dive discussion on what makes this a great airplane. Ended up sounding like a quack.

Was this useless propaganda piece made for ten-year-olds in India?

Forget deep-dive, there is no medium-dive discussion either.

Very anti-climactic - knowing that "owar ninetee pursent" of the components for this airplane are foreign made, and they can't even talk about that either (integration subject, challenges etc.).

Made for uneducated bhakt consumption - Waste of time...

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## Goenitz

So F-16 flew better with Teja control 11:56  ? idk how it was integrated at first place

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Goenitz said:


> So F-16 flew better with Teja control 11:56  ? idk how it was integrated at first place



For those who know the programme, our FBW system took off at LM in their test F16 plane. Our engineers improved the performance of the test aircrafts. 
After 98', the whole team.was evicted from the office and even their notes, computers weren't allowed to be taken. 

From there, they came back,developed the compilers, developed whole libraries and finished FBW system development. That is what he is mentioning.

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## Deltadart

Yes this surya is like a bad infection, that keeps coming back, over and over again.
@Huffal , @Sainthood 101

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## SaadH

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> From there, they came back,developed the compilers, developed whole libraries and finished FBW system development. That is what he is mentioning.


Why were they at LM in the first place?


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## faithfulguy

Why open a thread on this plane? Isn’t there a pinned thread for this plane? This plane is a failed plane. Should be cancelled long time ago. It wasn’t so Indian Air Force is forced to buy a plane they do not want. So they stuck it on a truck and take it to air shows.Is it too late for India to take it outside of the barn and shoot it?


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## Arulmozhi Varman

SaadH said:


> Why were they at LM in the first place?



Cos we had no experience on developing FCS software in the first place.....


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## beijingwalker

How 'indigenous' is the Indian Tejas LCA
It has a GE American engine, an Israeli Elta radar, and British aerospace, avionics, and other engines...

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## Suriya

*Hamara Tejas | Episode-5 | Top class core avionics from ADA added might to Tejas | KH-AK show





*


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## Chhatrapati

beijingwalker said:


> How 'indigenous' is the Indian Tejas LCA
> It has a GE American engine, an Israeli Elta radar, and British aerospace, avionics, and other engines...


You ain't getting cents for that. That looks like a Gripen or something.

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## beijingwalker

> In 1983, the Government of India established the LCA project with the initial goal to develop a new light combat aircraft to replace the ageing IAF fighters.


This is 40 years ago, the chief engineers of this project must still be teengers when this project first started.


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## MirageBlue

Goenitz said:


> So F-16 flew better with Teja control 11:56  ? idk how it was integrated at first place



It was integrated on the F-16 VISTA at Calspan. I have read about this in Air Marshal Rajkumar's book on the Tejas. It was American test pilots who remarked that the F-16 VISTA flew better when the LCA Fly By Wire FCS control laws were loaded in place of the F-16's control laws. 









General Dynamics X-62 VISTA - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 LSP upgraded to FOC standards, taking off






Img credit - Gaur.aviation
From Grp Cpt HV Thakur



> When you see the Tejas pilot and want to cross ahead of him for take off








Tejas Mk1 LSP upgraded to FOC standard
Large Area Display that will be used on the LCA SPORT (LIFT) and the Tejas Mk2

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## Goenitz

@JamD 
Is it possible? If yes, then to what degree? I hv limited knowledge of control system.
Besides architecture/technique and communication protocols, how could L.Martin reveal their system specifications so that Integration can take place?

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## Primus

Sudarshan said:


> You won’t be paid your 50 cents as you posted Swedish Gripen aircraft as Tejas, not surprising as your state run media was also caught using LCA footage in their J-10 propaganda video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Media Tried To Pass Of Tejas Fighter Footage As Their Own & It’s Not The First Time
> 
> 
> Chinese experts have frequently cited the progress of the J-10 to ridicule the Tejas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mensxp.com


Lol. Thats embarrassing. Almost as bad as using Pakistani ballistic missiles pictures for the background of some indian nuclear scientist...


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## Black Tornado

Huffal said:


> Lol. Thats embarrassing. Almost as bad as using Pakistani ballistic missiles pictures for the background of some indian nuclear scientist...


What news outlets do is their business not mine.


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## Primus

Sudarshan said:


> What news outlets do is their business not mine.


Then why ridicule others on it then

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## JamD

Goenitz said:


> @JamD
> Is it possible? If yes, then to what degree? I hv limited knowledge of control system.
> Besides architecture/technique and communication protocols, how could L.Martin reveal their system specifications so that Integration can take place?


I believe there might be some truth to the claims that is then dressed up and presented as something else. What the likely story is:
People from DRDO were sent to various countries to learn the ropes. Lockheed Martin and Dassault in particular. I am fairly sure that this did indeed happen. LM stopped collaboration after the nuclear tests in 1998. It is very possible that DRDO engineers had the chance to learn and develop a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62. And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws" is the usual bravado.

The deeper point to note is how deeply India has been collaborating with the west in aerospace and for how long. Do we seriously want to believe that 3-4 decades of exchanges have not benefited India greatly even if their final product (LCA) looks less than adequate? They have been playing the technologies game and in that game they have done extremely well. DRDO got flight control tech and engine tech from the west (LM and Dassault, respectively).

On the other hand, we have been playing the capabilities game and done pretty well too. As time has gone by and as our economy has faltered more and more, our technologies game has picked up an increasing amount of rot. We did pick up technologies too but only in a limited manner. We got the ability to manufacture JF-17's structure only. We have little to no experience with engines or flight control laws (https://quwa.org/2020/04/19/why-pac-needs-in-house-development-of-flight-control-systems-2/). It's only a matter of time before India's long-term technologies game beats the crap out of our short-term capabilities game, especially since we rely on buying a lot of our capability and our economy isn't able to support that approach anymore.

In a way what India did in the 90s, MAYBE we are doing with the Turks in 2020s. Just saying. And even that effort might lead us nowhere but it is super important exactly for the reason that we need to build technologies.

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Bilal9 said:


> Unfortunately, the Bhakt IT coolies who wrote the FBW $hit for the Boeing 737 MAX caused it to crash. Twice.
> 
> Boeing had to ground these planes, causing tens of Billions in lost revenue. Thanks very much IT coolies.
> 
> Whether Boeing intends to sue the pants off of the Backoffice outfit in India which it hired, remains to be seen.
> 
> Knowing Indian IT companies, they will slip like a slippery eel from accepting any blame.
> 
> Compare this to the Japanese chap in Istanbul whose bridge failure caused him to sadly end his own life. He took personal responsibility.
> 
> That is the difference between a third-rate Bhakt IT coolie who cheated his way through everything and a responsible Japanese person with some principle. MAJOR difference.



You are way beyond stupid you if think BA or any other aerospace companies would let their FCS or FBW code to third party companies. But of course this is pdf and we have lots of idiots. Their their core engineering software. Or heart of control systems. 

HCL has a huge clientale which also includes Airbus in their Bangalore and Chennai campus. The testing is performed there not development of the core software. 
Other development takes place includes software hardware implementation of test fixtures for various electronic boards and parts.

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## Suriya

JamD said:


> I believe there might be some truth to the claims that is then dressed up and presented as something else. What the likely story is:
> People from DRDO were sent to various countries to learn the ropes. Lockheed Martin and Dassault in particular. I am fairly sure that this did indeed happen. LM stopped collaboration after the nuclear tests in 1998. It is very possible that DRDO engineers had the chance to learn and develop a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62. And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws" is the usual bravado.
> 
> The deeper point to note is how deeply India has been collaborating with the west in aerospace and for how long. Do we seriously want to believe that 3-4 decades of exchanges have not benefited India greatly even if their final product (LCA) looks less than adequate? They have been playing the technologies game and in that game they have done extremely well. DRDO got flight control tech and engine tech from the west (LM and Dassault, respectively).
> 
> On the other hand, we have been playing the capabilities game and done pretty well too. As time has gone by and as our economy has faltered more and more, our technologies game has picked up an increasing amount of rot. We did pick up technologies too but only in a limited manner. We got the ability to manufacture JF-17's structure only. We have little to no experience with engines or flight control laws (https://quwa.org/2020/04/19/why-pac-needs-in-house-development-of-flight-control-systems-2/). It's only a matter of time before India's long-term technologies game beats the crap out of our short-term capabilities game, especially since we rely on buying a lot of our capability and our economy isn't able to support that approach anymore.
> 
> In a way what India did in the 90s, MAYBE we are doing with the Turks in 2020s. Just saying. And even that effort might lead us nowhere but it is super important exactly for the reason that we need to build technologies.


@Joe Shearer You can dispel the doubt raised above, since If I remember correctly u have talked it once.

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## JamD

Suriya said:


> @Joe Shearer You can dispel the doubt raised above, since If I remember correctly u have talked it once.


What doubt exactly?


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## Black Tornado

Huffal said:


> Then why ridicule others on it then


State owned media is state owned, what privies do is not my business, and its not that you haven’t done it, I remember a thread onthe topic of your government using Indian pictures for his own Tabdeeli, will it matter then? Most media outlets search for pics on google images and post it. While in the case of video they literally picked it, edited it to make it look a bit different and then posted it.


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## GamoAccu

You know Tejas is a crappy pos when their own airforce rejects it.






Defense World


View News at Defense World




www.defenseworld.net


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## Suriya

JamD said:


> What doubt exactly?


"That Tejas fight control is a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62", which isn't true.


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## JamD

Suriya said:


> "That Tejas fight control is a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62", which isn't true.


Oh I agree that that isn't true.

You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.


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## SQ8

JamD said:


> Oh I agree that that isn't true.
> 
> You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.


I have great respect for the Tejas CLAW team - they did get massive support from LM to pull off what they needed to including a dedicated testbed but they did take a baseline and tune it very well for the Tejas

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## MirageBlue

JamD said:


> I believe there might be some truth to the claims that is then dressed up and presented as something else. What the likely story is:
> People from DRDO were sent to various countries to learn the ropes. Lockheed Martin and Dassault in particular. I am fairly sure that this did indeed happen. LM stopped collaboration after the nuclear tests in 1998. It is very possible that DRDO engineers had the chance to learn and develop a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62. And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws" is the usual bravado.
> 
> The deeper point to note is how deeply India has been collaborating with the west in aerospace and for how long. Do we seriously want to believe that 3-4 decades of exchanges have not benefited India greatly even if their final product (LCA) looks less than adequate? They have been playing the technologies game and in that game they have done extremely well. DRDO got flight control tech and engine tech from the west (LM and Dassault, respectively).
> 
> On the other hand, we have been playing the capabilities game and done pretty well too. As time has gone by and as our economy has faltered more and more, our technologies game has picked up an increasing amount of rot. We did pick up technologies too but only in a limited manner. We got the ability to manufacture JF-17's structure only. We have little to no experience with engines or flight control laws (https://quwa.org/2020/04/19/why-pac-needs-in-house-development-of-flight-control-systems-2/). It's only a matter of time before India's long-term technologies game beats the crap out of our short-term capabilities game, especially since we rely on buying a lot of our capability and our economy isn't able to support that approach anymore.
> 
> In a way what India did in the 90s, MAYBE we are doing with the Turks in 2020s. Just saying. And even that effort might lead us nowhere but it is super important exactly for the reason that we need to build technologies.



There was no bravado or fake claims about what was mentioned by the American test pilot. I will find that part of the book by Air Marshal Rajkumar, where he mentions this.

One thing that every single test pilot that has flown the LCA Tejas has remarked is that it has excellent flight characteristics and the control harmony, the responsiveness of the FCS is superb.

Interview with Tejas test pilot Group Captain Rajeev Joshi



> *What is the best thing about it?*
> 
> “The small size and the good sensor package. The ability of the avionics design to absorb changes and upgrades seamlessly is a positive advantage. The biggest strength of the programme comes from the fact that the design and integration is indigenous. This gives the aircraft the ability to match the best in terms of features, utilities and modes.
> 
> Small size and low (radar) signature, coupled with a good sensor package, puts the Tejas in a good advantageous spot with respect to bigger birds. The typical ‘_first look, first kill’ _works very well for the Tejas in a fight, both in the beyond visual and the visual realms.
> 
> The Helmet Mounted Display System works well in a snap engagement and the coupled missile ‘line of sight’ (LOS) modes allow the first shot to be good. The HMDS is a very versatile piece of equipment for a number of tasks.
> *
> The handling of the flight control system is fabulous and is being refined continuously. Based on the operational feedback from the fleet, the build up of rates is being refined to make it crisper and yet more responsive. In this area too, the 100% indigenous flight control system is a winner. It’s ours, and can be tweaked continuously. The process is very robust and the feedback about handling and what would ‘feel’ better is addressed very quickly.
> 
> The full authority Auto Low Speed Recovery makes the aircraft truly carefree, more so than any other fighter in the world. This may be contested, but I’m willing to defend this position in a debate! The ALSR and other higher control law modes put this a notch higher. Throw it around as much as you can — when she says ‘no’, she will take over and recover the situation for you. The control and handling in high gain tasks like aerial refuelling is superb. It will beat contemporaries or older birds in this area. It really makes you feel like a great pilot!”*

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## MirageBlue

SQ8 said:


> I have great respect for the Tejas CLAW team - they did get massive support from LM to pull off what they needed to including a dedicated testbed but they did take a baseline and tune it very well for the Tejas



Originally Dassault offered India a triplex redundant analog FCS derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. It was rejected by DRDO scientists who wanted the most modern and state of the art quadruplex fully digital FCS to be designed for the LCA. That was the reason that LM was chosen to support the LCA FCS development rather than Dassault. 

BAe was also used as a consultant on the LCA FCS initially and they gave some crucial inputs. But as consultants, they give inputs, they don't do the work, as anyone who has worked with consultants will know. 

The fact is that after all the computers and data was impounded by the Americans and the Indian scientists and engineers working on it were asked to leave the country immediately, Indian engineers re-started ALL the work from scratch in India itself, which was a mammoth task. I know a couple of people from that team personally and they have recounted how team members worked in shifts to have it going on 24 hours each weekday. People don't realize how amazing the work they did was. 

The LCA CLAW team has been one of the biggest gains from the Tejas program, apart from the experience gained in composites, avionics integration and structures design and validation. 

It is the primary reason why they are very comfortable with the idea of developing the FCS for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA within a reasonable time. It would not have been possible if

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## jk007

MirageBlue said:


> Originally Dassault offered India a triplex redundant analog FCS derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. It was rejected by DRDO scientists who wanted the most modern and state of the art quadruplex fully digital FCS to be designed for the LCA. That was the reason that LM was chosen to support the LCA FCS development rather than Dassault.
> 
> BAe was also used as a consultant on the LCA FCS initially and they gave some crucial inputs. But as consultants, they give inputs, they don't do the work, as anyone who has worked with consultants will know.
> 
> The fact is that after all the computers and data was impounded by the Americans and the Indian scientists and engineers working on it were asked to leave the country immediately, Indian engineers re-started ALL the work from scratch in India itself, which was a mammoth task. I know a couple of people from that team personally and they have recounted how team members worked in shifts to have it going on 24 hours each weekday. People don't realize how amazing the work they did was.
> 
> The LCA CLAW team has been one of the biggest gains from the Tejas program, apart from the experience gained in composites, avionics integration and structures design and validation.
> 
> It is the primary reason why they are very comfortable with the idea of developing the FCS for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA within a reasonable time. It would not have been possible if


All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?


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## JamD

MirageBlue said:


> There was no bravado or fake claims about what was mentioned by the American test pilot. I will find that part of the book by Air Marshal Rajkumar, where he mentions this.



Please read what I wrote and don't put words in my mouth:


JamD said:


> And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "*X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws*" is the usual bravado.


because...


JamD said:


> You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.


I think I've been very clear in my appreciation of the LCA team. Not sure what are arguing about.






jk007 said:


> All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?


If I had to put it in one sentence, it became operational too late. There is also some aspect of India having money to buy a lot of things from abroad so it feels no need to buy its own produdct because it has options. Otherwise, the LCA program has been very very succesful in building aerospace infrastructure in India. You can bet that the next aircraft project India will embark on it'll do very well. Nobody will be making fun of that then.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

jk007 said:


> All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?


Because FBW is mot everything. If u ask a person going to fight would u like a experimental vehicle or already fully developed when used by many plus as a bonus u also get kick backs .😉
I would go with fully developed 1. But ofcourse this a very short sighted view.
Look at pakistan AF , they make do with JF and now r in a position to further upgrade it.

Same thing with Tejas mk2 . It's 10yrs late but thank God not so old technology wise. That's why Tejas jokes although funny doesn't realy tell u the ground reality.


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## jk007

NAVDEEP DHALIWAL said:


> But ofcourse this a very short sighted view.
> Look at pakistan AF , they make do with JF and now r in a position to further upgrade it.



Aren't you one of the supporters of "farmers" movement? Those "farmers" that had the govt successfully repeal the farm laws??

Many times, it amazes as to how many contractions a human being can hold and still be happy / confident, and think they can lecture others.
And you are talking about "short sighted" view??

*From now on, look back and think that you are at least partially responsible for deaths of some farmers [no, not those rich fat "farmers" that are camped on the roads or their paid agents]....but the actual small farmers that try to make their lives better with hard-work.

You sir, have blood on your hands.....Next time, you read about farmers (i.e. real farmers) deaths, please think that you are partially responsible for at least some of them.*

Please please enlighten us why those "farmers" are still camped on roads? What else is remaining to "achieve" (err...destroy)?
I guess you believe that those "farmers" that are camped on the roads are far far far far sighted.....

PS: A country that had so much hypocrites (including media) , that everyone knows the truth but refuse to say it or defend it, can never amount to much. It took the "farmers" movement to make me realise the limits of India.

Contrary to what is written in PDF, India is not even a comparision to china. India / Indians should not even dream of competing with China. China is a league of it's own. Credit to them. We, indians, can compare with Pakistan or Afghanistan, and leave it there.

Stupid / Idiot of me - it took so long for me to realise this.

*PS#1: forgive me for this question - Are you a Jat or a communist? Please answer this one question please.*


Mods - The repeal of farm laws had a huge impact on me (*maybe, bought me to my senses*). I had to ask these difficult questions to one of the supporters of those responsible for their repeal. Forgive me for diverting from the topic of the thread.


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## Suriya

jk007 said:


> All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?


Prime reason:
IAF wanted to buy 124 Rafale or Euro fighters which they thought was the solution for all their problems and they feared If IAF commits to LCA then GOI would cut or cancel MMRCA for budget shortfall. And see IAF fear came true, Modi bought 36 Rafales and forced them the buy 114 LCAs.


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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

jk007 said:


> Aren't you one of the supporters of "farmers" movement? Those "farmers" that had the govt successfully repeal the farm laws??
> 
> Many times, it amazes as to how many contractions a human being can hold and still be happy / confident, and think they can lecture others.
> And you are talking about "short sighted" view??
> 
> *From now on, look back and think that you are at least partially responsible for deaths of some farmers [no, not those rich fat "farmers" that are camped on the roads or their paid agents]....but the actual small farmers that try to make their lives better with hard-work.
> 
> You sir, have blood on your hands.....Next time, you read about farmers (i.e. real farmers) deaths, please think that you are partially responsible for at least some of them.*
> 
> Please please enlighten us why those "farmers" are still camped on roads? What else is remaining to "achieve" (err...destroy)?
> I guess you believe that those "farmers" that are camped on the roads are far far far far sighted.....
> 
> PS: A country that had so much hypocrites (including media) , that everyone knows the truth but refuse to say it or defend it, can never amount to much. It took the "farmers" movement to make me realise the limits of India.
> 
> Contrary to what is written in PDF, India is not even a comparision to china. India / Indians should not even dream of competing with China. China is a league of it's own. Credit to them. We, indians, can compare with Pakistan or Afghanistan, and leave it there.
> 
> Stupid / Idiot of me - it took so long for me to realise this.
> 
> *PS#1: forgive me for this question - Are you a Jat or a communist? Please answer this one question please.*
> 
> 
> Mods - The repeal of farm laws had a huge impact on me (*maybe, bought me to my senses*). I had to ask these difficult questions to one of the supporters of those responsible for their repeal. Forgive me for diverting from the topic of the thread.



You know jack shit about farming. My whole family is either in farming , army etc

And for ur kind information, look at the history of Punjab. Punjabi never give rat *** about communists just like now they don't give a f×k abt modi.

As for you calling farmers rich cause they have the guts to stay on the reads, what kind of fkd up logic is that.
Try to sleep on road in heat and cold. And u can also feel very rich. Don't worry u can eat the same food also 4m farmers as well, so u will save money on food.

As far farmers blood, u don't know 1st thing about giving blood in the struggle, punjabi history is full of it. It's just unheard of in a democracy that's what makes me angry.

And to answer your question why farmers not moving , well cause of modi reputation of Jumlebaaz.

They will come back when law is officially called back in parliament. Modi words has zero credibility among farmers.


And how repealing the law affected you 🤔 ?


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## Arulmozhi Varman

jk007 said:


> All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?



Fighter needs to have IAF expectations which it actually did not meet atleast till 2014. It still does not meet some requirements even in FOC version. For example, the cannon is not operational. DRDO / ADA team argues gun is not important anymore in non contact air warfare. But IAF still wants them to proximity of Pakistani airbases.

Plus corruption had its attempt as well. One ex IAF chief is in jail for corruption in a different case, though might not be surprised if he was on a different company payroll as well. 

The LCAs payload capabilities is something that ADA will keep updating. Recently it's payload was increased from 3.5t to 4t with updates in FCS. Initially it was certified for only 3.25t. The ADA expects to increase it further with refinement in FCS. 
It's only after the first squadron was raised and pilots were impressed with it, IAF finally decided to take the plunge with more enthusiasm. It also gave them confidence that the Ada team can do Mk1A and Mk2 versions on time with improvements promised.

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## Vanamali

GamoAccu said:


> You know Tejas is a crappy pos when their own airforce rejects it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net


boss spare this thread with you enlightening posts... this is a sticky thread .. dont repeat your shit again and again like self suggestions.. if you have something to add for discussion pls do else you are free to think that this is test bed and leave us. Instead you can go to JF 17 thread and say its best and it will beat Tejas hands down any day.. you can do this 100 times in morning and 100 times before going to bed.

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## Suriya



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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Suriya said:


>


Have a look here plz and then comment about this with confirmed news


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## Black Tornado

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Have a look here plz and then comment about this with confirmed news


You know what? This channel is called Haqeeqat TV of India, so you can guess the authenticity of it.

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## Suriya

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Have a look here plz and then comment about this with confirmed news


Airforce wants HAL to focus on 5th Gen AMCA and deliver it as soon as possible.
So there is a possibility that India would buy more Rafale and move on to AMCA rather than LCAmk2.

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## Arulmozhi Varman

Suriya said:


> Airforce wants HAL to focus on 5th Gen AMCA and deliver it as soon as possible.
> So there is a possibility that India would buy more Rafale and move on to AMCA rather than LCAmk2.



Lol no. One Amca would cost double of a Mk2. Our squadron strength is failing. You can't dispatch an Amca to every minor operations like reconnaissance, flight scare etc. 
Plus Mk2 prototype are sanctioned by GoI. Cockpit, mission computer, FCS has been done including radar. Metal cutting has started. They already received landing gear from a component maker.


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## Suriya

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Lol no. One Amca would cost double of a Mk2. Our squadron strength is failing. You can't dispatch an Amca to every minor operations like reconnaissance, flight scare etc.
> Plus Mk2 prototype are sanctioned by GoI. Cockpit, mission computer, FCS has been done including radar. Metal cutting has started. They already received landing gear from a component maker.


Making prototypes and getting orders from IAF is different. 
Navy prototypes is flying, though NAVY has made it clear they wont buy single engine jet. So as I said there is speculation IAF may skip Mk2 and go for AMCA


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## MirageBlue

jk007 said:


> All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?



Many reasons why. Over-promised due to a lack of understanding of how complex the development would be and then the resultant schedule lapses. 

The problem has always been about where to draw the line between developing technology entirely within India and where to take an off the shelf item or get it developed by another firm outside India.

The scientific community wanted maximum technology to be developed within India, even if it meant it would take longer for the production Tejas to be ready. But the IAF wanted the opposite because it wanted to retire MiG-21s and it's force structure was being effected as a result. 

In some cases, indigenous development failed to deliver the goods fully. Case in point - the Kaveri GTX-35VS turbofan. Anyone who knows fighters and aerospace knows that turbofans are the most complex piece of engineering equipment on a flying machine. And even though GTRE had built turbojets, the Kaveri was a very risky decision. After all how many countries in the world in the 1990s had the capability to design and develop a modern military turbofan engine? the IAF was rightly skeptical that it would fail and the Tejas would not meet schedules as a result. Plus, the budgets given to GTRE for the entire program was not even 10% of what GE or RR or Safran spent on a new turbofan.

Eventually, after a lot of delays, the Kaveri engine achieved the targeted dry thrust, but GTRE and DRDO encountered technical challenges that could not be overcome due to metallurgical issues and others. Eventually, only after the decision was taken to de-link the Kaveri from the Tejas program, then the Tejas program became fully viable. 

Anyway there is a lot that can be written about the relationship between DRDO and the IAF on this program but all that is in the past now. As things stand the IAF has firm orders for 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A fighters and the reports from the IAF are glowing for the Tejas in every way. So as things stand, the IAF would like to get as many Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As as fast as possible.

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## Joe Shearer

Suriya said:


> @Joe Shearer You can dispel the doubt raised above, since If I remember correctly u have talked it once.


I am not sure what you want me to respond to.
First, our engineers were locked out of the Lockheed Martin offices overnight, once the embargo was imposed; they were not allowed even to retrieve their own notes and workings. 
It is possible that, being competent engineers, they recalled the broad outlines of what they had been doing, reaped the benefit of eliminating blind alleys in their previous work (always happens in a development project that the second time around, one goes straight to the mark), and wrote better control laws. 
As far as scoffing about claims made, claims are just claims, and so, too, scoffing is just scoffing: both are irrelevant displays born out of an inferiority complex.
As far as the analysis of the current state of play within Pakistan is concerned, two comments are possible:

In the science-hostile environment that is rapidly coming to a head in Pakistan, very little progress can be expected;
In emulating the blind prejudice of our neighbours and their vulnerability to religious rage, we are doing no better and already the effects are showing up.
Nothing much to choose between the two failing states.


Arulmozhi Varman said:


> You are way beyond stupid you if think BA or any other aerospace companies would let their FCS or FBW code to third party companies. But of course this is pdf and we have lots of idiots. Their their core engineering software. Or heart of control systems.
> 
> HCL has a huge clientale which also includes Airbus in their Bangalore and Chennai campus. The testing is performed there not development of the core software.
> Other development takes place includes software hardware implementation of test fixtures for various electronic boards and parts.



This is not entirely correct. HCL picked up key people from my team after I had left, people whom I had procured salaries better than my own, and what these people were doing in our organisation was not testing work.
For instance, the control laws for one of the key ISRO launch vehicles was worked out by us; this was the first and last time ISRO outsourced this kind of work, and the ISRO chief who took over soon after this (a well-known and publicity-loving figure) made sure we got nothing from them. However, we had the capability and exercised it successfully in a number of projects that obviously may not be mentioned.
We did do a lot of testing, as it happens. One well-fed cash cow was the testing of Ada based software for Westinghouse, developed by our clients, and tested entirely by us; our certification was accepted by the end-client. That does not mean that we had no other work.

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## Sine Nomine

Joe Shearer said:


> rapidly coming to a head in Pakistan, very little progress can be expected;
> In emulating the blind prejudice of our neighbours and their vulnerability to religious rage, we are doing no better and already the effects are showing up.


1-Religion has nothing to do with progress of science in Pakistan,it's just "ratta mar babus" controlling everything and "primary fail" netas riding their shoulders holding everything back,on top of that there is corruption and shortage of funds tbh we are doing better than Bharat with little funds we have.
2-That wave would pass just try to compare it's timeline with our's,it started and eventually is dying in case of India,it is going to hit peak faster than Pakistan(thanks to new mediums of reaching masses) and would than die off slowly and you know what was sitution in Pakistan when it reached peak.

P.S:-How's your health?


Joe Shearer said:


> Nothing much to choose between the two failing states.


Sadely,a chance after 1000 years to rule ourselves is going to be wasted due to cunning and rent seeking nature of our peoples.

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## MirageBlue

Updates on the Uttam AESA radar for the Tejas Mk1A. From the 16th Tejas Mk1A onwards, the Elta 2052 will be replaced by the Uttam AESA. 

link



> Project director D Seshagiri of Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) confirmed this and said that the developed AESA radar is 95% indigenous, with only one imported subsystem.
> 
> Later this month, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will demonstrate the use of an indigenously developed active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, making India one of the few countries to have an indigenous force-multiplier that lies at the heart of electronic warfare, long-range missiles, and long-distance, precision-guided ammunition.
> 
> Project director D Seshagiri of Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) confirmed this and said that the developed AESA radar is 95% indigenous, with only one imported subsystem. It has the capacity to track 50 targets in the sky at a range in excess of 100km and engage four of them simultaneously.

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## Joe Shearer

Sine Nomine said:


> 1-Religion has nothing to do with progress of science in Pakistan,it's just "ratta mar babus" controlling everything and "primary fail" netas riding their shoulders holding everything back,on top of that there is corruption and shortage of funds tbh we are doing better than Bharat with little funds we have.
> 2-That wave would pass just try to compare it's timeline with our's,it started and eventually is dying in case of India,it is going to hit peak faster than Pakistan(thanks to new mediums of reaching masses) and would than die off slowly and you know what was sitution in Pakistan when it reached peak.
> 
> P.S:-How's your health?
> 
> Sadely,a chance after 1000 years to rule ourselves is going to be wasted due to cunning and rent seeking nature of our peoples.


I think you got that right.


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## Arulmozhi Varman

Joe Shearer said:


> I am not sure what you want me to respond to.
> First, our engineers were locked out of the Lockheed Martin offices overnight, once the embargo was imposed; they were not allowed even to retrieve their own notes and workings.
> It is possible that, being competent engineers, they recalled the broad outlines of what they had been doing, reaped the benefit of eliminating blind alleys in their previous work (always happens in a development project that the second time around, one goes straight to the mark), and wrote better control laws.
> As far as scoffing about claims made, claims are just claims, and so, too, scoffing is just scoffing: both are irrelevant displays born out of an inferiority complex.
> As far as the analysis of the current state of play within Pakistan is concerned, two comments are possible:
> 
> In the science-hostile environment that is rapidly coming to a head in Pakistan, very little progress can be expected;
> In emulating the blind prejudice of our neighbours and their vulnerability to religious rage, we are doing no better and already the effects are showing up.
> Nothing much to choose between the two failing states.
> 
> 
> This is not entirely correct. HCL picked up key people from my team after I had left, people whom I had procured salaries better than my own, and what these people were doing in our organisation was not testing work.
> For instance, the control laws for one of the key ISRO launch vehicles was worked out by us; this was the first and last time ISRO outsourced this kind of work, and the ISRO chief who took over soon after this (a well-known and publicity-loving figure) made sure we got nothing from them. However, we had the capability and exercised it successfully in a number of projects that obviously may not be mentioned.
> We did do a lot of testing, as it happens. One well-fed cash cow was the testing of Ada based software for Westinghouse, developed by our clients, and tested entirely by us; our certification was accepted by the end-client. That does not mean that we had no other work.



I might be wrong. But my friend is currently working in a HCL campus in Chennai related to Airbus. And I do know they had a team for Boeing though I do not know anyone from the team. He is not an firmware engineer or software engineer, but worked on Electronics, simulation and avionics test fixtures. 
Being myself a ATE engineer, I have quite a lot of contacts in the field. 
But I am pretty surprised you worked in technical field. I thought you were a bureaucrat.


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## Hephaestus

LCA Tejas with DASH IV HMD & Sagem's Sigma 95 navigation system

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## Joe Shearer

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> I might be wrong. But my friend is currently working in a HCL campus in Chennai related to Airbus. And I do know they had a team for Boeing though I do not know anyone from the team. He is not an firmware engineer or software engineer, but worked on Electronics, simulation and avionics test fixtures.
> Being myself a ATE engineer, I have quite a lot of contacts in the field.
> But I am pretty surprised you worked in technical field. I thought you were a bureaucrat.


I did neither. Read my post carefully.


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## Super Falcon

Finally very bias prospective and what can tejas achoeve for IAF


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## Super Falcon

Tejas have better manuverability than thunder

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## mshan44

LCA Tejas in dubai

Last pic shows the outclass finishing of Tejas


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## Deino

mshan44 said:


> LCA Tejas in dubai
> 
> Last pic shows the outclass finishing of Tejas




Sorry, but what is so outstanding on that finish? *IMO NOTHING! *

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## mshan44

Deino said:


> Sorry, but what is so outstanding on that finish? *IMO NOTHING! *


i was trying to make fun of it outstanding finish does looks like someone weld it on road

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## Deino

mshan44 said:


> i was trying to make fun of it outstanding finish does looks like someone weld it on road




ok


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## MirageBlue

mshan44 said:


> LCA Tejas in dubai
> 
> Last pic shows the outclass finishing of Tejas



And I've seen F-16s with poorer finish in the US. 

Your trolling doesn't make any difference to the fact that the overall tolerances on the Tejas are as good as those on most Western fighters. And that it uses the highest percentage of composites in it's skin and airframe.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk2 has completed it's Critical Design Review in November 2021. HAL is now working on getting the first Tejas Mk2 prototype rolled out by late 2022. 

IAF clears Tejas Mk2 design



> *
> A major landmark in that evolution was passed on November 15, when the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS), Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, accepted the comprehensive design review (CDR) of the LCA Mark 2.
> 
> A CDR is a multi-discipline, technical review that is a critical step in designing an aircraft. It involves examining the air frame design to ascertain that the aircraft is ready for fabrication and testing and it would achieve its stipulated performance within cost, schedule and risk.
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) acceptance of the CDR clears the way for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to start releasing drawings for fabricating the Mark 2’s first prototype.*
> 
> Alongside building the Mark 2 prototype, HAL and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) agency that oversees the entire Tejas programme – must still resolve a few glitches that remain in the Mark 1 fighter; and also complete delivery of the IAF’s order of 40 Mark 1 (two squadrons) and 83 Mark 1A (four squadrons).
> 
> During an exclusive visit to HAL’s Tejas production line in Bengaluru, _Business Standard_ was briefed in detail on the status of the indigenous fighter project. This includes the evolution of the Mark 1 and 1A into the Mark 2; simultaneous development of the navy’s eponymous Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for its aircraft carriers; design and development of the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), and the development of the Combat Air Teaming System (CATS), a futuristic combination of manned-unmanned aircraft that is the future of air warfare.
> 
> The first two Mark 1 squadrons are already operational in Sulur, near Coimbatore. Each of them is authorized 20 fighters, including four twin-seat trainers. The trainers’ specifications were finalised late, so they will be built along with the 16 trainers of the four Mark 1A squadrons.
> 
> The IAF has cleared the “final operational certification” (FOC) for the Mark I fighter, even though that involved granting 25 concessions – or performance shortfalls from the IAF’s specified requirements. HAL, ADA and the IAF are working together to resolve these shortfalls.
> *
> Twelve issues have already been resolved, the most important one being: Equipping the Tejas to re-fuel in-flight, by day or night. In recent trials at Gwalior, the Tejas proved it could refuel into internal fuel tanks or external drop tanks, from IL-78 refuellers or from Sukhoi-30MKI acting as “buddy refuellers.” This capability is operationally vital, since it effectively increases the range of the Tejas.
> 
> Another shortfall that has been resolved is the capability to monitor fuel levels in the Tejas through an integrated Environmental Control and Fuel Management (ECFM) system. This tells the pilot, via a smart multi-function display in the Tejas’ glass cockpit, the fuel level in each of the tanks.
> 
> Also being proved is the firing of the Tejas Mark 1’s Gasha 23 mm gun. The gun had been integrated onto the fighter, but live firing was pending. Now butt firing trials and air-to-air firing is being carried out in Nashik.
> 
> Waiting to be integrated onto the Tejas is the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile and Safran’s Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range (HAMMER) air-to-ground bomb. Towards this, HAL does the mechanical and electrical integration, while the DRDO handles the software and the weapons algorithm.
> *
> The 13 shortfalls that still remain include fatigue tests to establish the fighter’s service life span. These tests involve taking an aircraft from the production line and subjecting it to repetitive loading. All combat aircraft are initially released with a designated service life – 500 hours in the case of the LCA. As more and more hours are logged and the data accumulates, the manufacturer increases the designated lifespan proportionately. It takes about nine years of fatigue testing to establish 3,000 hours of service life of the aircraft.
> 
> While these capabilities are being tested on the Tejas Mark 1, the Mark 1A is being fitted with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an electronic warfare (EW) suite that includes a jammer, the Combined Interrogator and Transponder (CIT) – an IFF plus system – and a digital map generator.
> 
> The digital map generator, designed by HAL’s MCSR&DC (Mission and Combat Systems R&D Centre), carries the complete map data of the country and neighbouring areas. Depending upon the Tejas’ mission, it extracts the digitised map of the current mission area and transfers it to the pilots’ display, where he can easily access it.
> 
> HAL is also integrating the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) onto the Mark 1A. The ASRAAM, which has a range of 60-70 kilometres was bought by the IAF from MBDA UK, for upgrading its Jaguar fighters. Now each Tejas too will carry two of these missiles on its outboard stations.
> 
> Another modification involves reshaping the cockpit floor to enable bigger pilots – with shoe size up to 10, which includes 95 per cent of all IAF pilots – to fit into the cockpit and fly the aircraft comfortably.
> 
> “The IAF has allotted HAL a Tejas Mark 1, numbered SP-25 (series production aircraft number 25), for integrating these modifications. We are almost through and will start flight testing in December. It will take about two years to complete flight testing, i.e., by end-2023,” said HAL chairman, R Madhavan.
> 
> Meanwhile, flight-testing continues. The first Mark 1A is to be delivered in February 2024 with all modifications installed. Since the last Tejas Mark 1 is being completed in the same timeframe, the jigs, fixtures and assembly line used to build the Tejas Mark 1 will be diverted to building the Mark 1A.

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## MirageBlue

A must watch interview with Commodore Jaideep Maolankar, a former Tejas and LCA Navy test pilot. One of the best in the business, he was associated with the LCA Navy program from it's Project Definition Phase period to the time he landed it on INS Vikramaditya, thus making him the first Indian TP to land an Indian designed and developed airplane (not just fighter) on an aircraft carrier deck. A legend in the Indian TP community, and someone who is just amazing to talk to. Totally inspirational figure.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 LSP taking off for a practice display







Image credit - Gaur.aviation
LCA Navy Mk1 twin seater (NP-1) with the LEVCON surface deflected. 






Image credit - Gaur.aviation
Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter still in primer, with HAL HJT-36 Sitara






Image credit - Gaur.aviation

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## Deino

Any news on the Mk. 2? Has construction of the prototype already begun?


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Any news on the Mk. 2? Has construction of the prototype already begun?



It should have. The Critical Design Review was completed on November 15th, so drawings should have been released by now. Plan is for a roll-out by December 2022, followed by ground tests, LSTT, HSTT and then first flight by end 2023.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter (LA 5023) in primer, zooming away on takeoff






Image credit - Gaurav Shetty

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## RPK



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## Fighting Falcon 01

MirageBlue said:


> It should have. The Critical Design Review was completed on November 15th, so drawings should have been released by now. Plan is for a roll-out by December 2022, followed by ground tests, LSTT, HSTT and then first flight by end 2023.


What's the progress on MK1A? Has a functional prototype been rolled out yet? How is it possible that without completion of MK1A project they are moving on to MK2?


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## Farhan Bohra

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> What's the progress on MK1A? Has a functional prototype been rolled out yet? How is it possible that without completion of MK1A project they are moving on to MK2?


Why did they roll out a prototype of Mk1A?
It's not based on any new tech, prototypes only are required for certifying and developing certain techs, like for AMCA. And 200 hours of certification are needed when integrating new subsystems, which can be done on the current LSP.

Even MWF doesn't require a prototype, and only LSPs are planned, which going to require around 2000-3000 hours of certification.

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## Fighting Falcon 01

Farhan Bohra said:


> Why did they roll out a prototype of Mk1A?
> It's not based on any new tech, prototypes only are required for certifying and developing certain techs, like for AMCA. And 200 hours of certification are needed when integrating new subsystems, which can be done on the current LSP.
> 
> Even MWF doesn't require a prototype, and only LSPs are planned, which going to require around 2000-3000 hours of certification.


So Mk1A is not a major upgrade? JF17 block 3 also required prototypes for testing and validation of new AESA, FCS and related avionics the entire process took about 1 year. How many MK1A have been produced so far? Running multiple projects in parallel is not a concern for IAF? Do they have sufficient manufacturing capabilities to meet project deadlines?


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## Farhan Bohra

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> So Mk1A is not a major upgrade?


Major upgrades don't need a prototype. It needs recertification, which can be done on the existing platform. Even the ELM-2052 flight-tested on LSP way back in 2014.



Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> JF17 block 3 also required prototypes for testing and validation of new AESA, FCS and related avionics the entire process took about 1 year.


Exactly, 200 hours for flight test. If it was a prototype design, it is required at least 4-5 years of flight test (3000 hours).



Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> How many MK1A have been produced so far? Running multiple projects in parallel is not a concern for IAF? Do they have sufficient manufacturing capabilities to meet project deadlines?


No, it doesn't concern IAF, why it concerns them. The R&D teams are entirely different. They even did this during the development of Naval LCA and IAF's LCA. Why does it concern them now? Also Tejas Mk1A is a project of HAL, while Tejas MWF of ADA. I don't know what is parallel about it.
And yes they have enough manufacturing capabilities and Pvt capacity to meet demands. If you want to look into capabilities

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## Farhan Bohra



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## Arulmozhi Varman

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> So Mk1A is not a major upgrade? JF17 block 3 also required prototypes for testing and validation of new AESA, FCS and related avionics the entire process took about 1 year. How many MK1A have been produced so far? Running multiple projects in parallel is not a concern for IAF? Do they have sufficient manufacturing capabilities to meet project deadlines?



You need a prototype if there is an any design mods, new composite materials used etc. If the design is the same but changes in internal components, LRUs it doesn't need a prototype. 
However first Mk1A is expected to fly in June 2022 according to HaL


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## RPK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491105772079808512

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 with Astra Mk1 BVRAAM undergoing ground testing








Farhan Bohra said:


> View attachment 810645


Thanks for posting this. It's the Uttam AESA integrated on one of the LSPs. Has already flown quite a lot and the results from the tests have been very good. There is already an Uttam Mk2 AESA in the works as well as new GaN T/R modules.

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## monitor

A HAL made Tejas flying in Singapore Airshow 2022

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## Turingsage

At Singapore

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## prokion

indigenous lcs for tejas mk1a

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-for-tejas-aircraft/articleshow/89564843.cms

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters from No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron at Singapore Air Show 2022

The 3 Tejas fighters flew nonstop from Sulur AFS in Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu state to Singapore, a distance over 3000 kms, without any tanker support. I think that can lay to rest any speculations about the ferry range of the Tejas. It is class leading. 


















More images of the 3 Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters at Singapore









Grp Capt Manish "Tolly" Tolani, CO of the No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron

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## MirageBlue

More from the Singapore Air Show 2022

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## Arulmozhi Varman

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters from No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron at Singapore Air Show 2022
> 
> The 3 Tejas fighters flew nonstop from Sulur AFS in Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu state to Singapore, a distance over 3000 kms, without any tanker support. I think that can lay to rest any speculations about the ferry range of the Tejas. It is class leading.
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> More images of the 3 Tejas Mk1 FOC fighters at Singapore
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> Grp Capt Manish "Tolly" Tolani, CO of the No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron



The range will always get updated from time to time. Tejas was initially rated for only 3.25 tonnes payload, then 3.5, now 4T with significant improvement in flight profile. As it gets exploit more, more info will tumble out. The ferry range is 3200km officially while it has travelled 3150km nearly. Which means it should have at least 10% of fuel left for safety reasons. Which itself makes the ferry range around 3400km.

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## Samar111

MirageBlue said:


> More from the Singapore Air Show 2022


Looks stunning.


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 FOC full aerial display at Singapore Air Show 2022. Very energetic, superb roll rate and very high instantaneous turn rates.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

baqai said:


> while the roll seems to be good but it seems to be bleeding a lot of energy in turns
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## kmc_chacko

prokion said:


> indigenous lcs for tejas mk1a
> 
> https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-for-tejas-aircraft/articleshow/89564843.cms



In coming months you will see/hear lot of local replacements for imported items.

The way I am seeing things are moving very fast and lots of MSMEs are jumping in to cash in the opportunity of PLI & ABA schemes

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Tejas might have been midair refuelled before leaving Indian coastline. So unless iaf or drdo say it . There's no range increase at all.



































































































































































I


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## mig25

Singapore's Ministry Of Defence has released an awesome compilation of Tejas. Don't forget to turn up the volume!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495246925339136004

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## Wesen Hunter

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> The range will always get updated from time to time. Tejas was initially rated for only 3.25 tonnes payload, then 3.5, now 4T with significant improvement in flight profile. As it gets exploit more, more info will tumble out. The ferry range is 3200km officially while it has travelled 3150km nearly. Which means it should have at least 10% of fuel left for safety reasons. Which itself makes the ferry range around 3400km.





Samar111 said:


> Looks stunning.





MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1 FOC full aerial display at Singapore Air Show 2022. Very energetic, superb roll rate and very high instantaneous turn rates.





kmc_chacko said:


> In coming months you will see/hear lot of local replacements for imported items.
> 
> The way I am seeing things are moving very fast and lots of MSMEs are jumping in to cash in the opportunity of PLI & ABA schemes





NAVDEEP DHALIWAL said:


> Tejas might have been midair refuelled before leaving Indian coastline. So unless iaf or drdo say it . There's no range increase at all.
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mig25 said:


> Singapore's Ministry Of Defence has released an awesome compilation of Tejas. Don't forget to turn up the volume!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495246925339136004


next month Tejas will exercise in UK with F-35, Typhoon, Gripen etc.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495993516295856129

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## RPK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496432881798811650

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## MirageBlue

Good talk by Dr Girish Deodhare, ADA Director General on the programs that are currently in work at ADA. Tejas Mk2, AMCA and TEDBF.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Very interesting!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507635755065114624Jags had a passive system of Nav/Attack with the DARIN which was exceptional in good weather etc
Tejas has a Multi Mode Radar with good SAR mapping+terrain following and the DASH Helmet

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## Lord Of Gondor

So all but one of the FOC fighters are flying!
Good job by HAL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508302561064849410

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## MirageBlue

Lord Of Gondor said:


> So all but one of the FOC fighters are flying!
> Good job by HAL
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508302561064849410



Yes they've met their target. 31 of the single seat Tejas Mk1 fighters have flown or are with their squadrons. Last one remaining and then it's onto the Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers, of which 8 are to be built.

Simultaneously the Mk1A testing will be in full swing and all production activities will gear up towards manufacturing the 73 single seat Mk1A fighters.

Meanwhile, HAL had this poster for the LCA Lead In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) that is being offered to Malaysia. The weapons list is from the Tejas Mk1A, including the dual racks for ASRAAMs and another dual rack for the ASPJ+ASRAAM. Surprisingly, the R-73E and Python V cannot be carried on the dual racks, likely due to the large number of control surfaces on them. ASRAAM being much sleeker with no control surfaces allows for dual carriage. 

Hammer, Griffin LGB, NG-LGB (an indigenous LGB), JDAM, SAAW, 1000 kg, 500 kg, 250 kg HSLD, 






Very good list of weapons including WVR, BVR missiles, dumb bombs, PGMs, LGBs. Only thing missing is the NG-ARM for SEAD/DEAD missions. And an AShM.

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## prokion

Astra mk3 will be integrated into tejas mk2

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## Surya 1

IFRTS, AESA, Anti radiation missile, Astra mk1, MK2, SFDR , Rudram 2 etc are getting ready for integration with Tejas. State of art EW makes Tejas , the super Tejas. As per new specifications, MTOW is increased to 14.3 yons surpassing Gripen. Tejas can fly at just 80 nautical miles but at 100 nautical miles, software eill take over the cpntrol and stabilize Tejas.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Is This Fan based graphics or officially released by HAL ? 
I think many items are like 5-10 yrs in future right?
Still impressive


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## kmc_chacko

NAVDEEP DHALIWAL said:


> Is This Fan based graphics or officially released by HAL ?
> I think many items are like 5-10 yrs in future right?
> Still impressive



Tejas Mk.2 is estimated to be rolled out by 2023 & inducted by 2026 and every new techs are in various stages of developments and till that time Tejas Mk1 will be the platform for testing and perfecting and HAL is explaining it.

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519215381235527680

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## Farhan Bohra

Structural load test for certifying 6000 and 10000 hours of airframe life. Initial certification for 6000 hours be cleared within 1 1/2 years- 2 years, by increasing load limit by a factor of 3.

Full certification for 10000 hours take 8-10 years.

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## Two banks of the River

Farhan Bohra said:


> View attachment 839535
> 
> 
> Structural load test for certifying 6000 and 10000 hours of airframe life. Initial certification for 6000 hours be cleared within 1 1/2 years- 2 years, by increasing load limit by a factor of 3.
> 
> Full certification for 10000 hours take 8-10 years.


Current certification is upto 3000 hours, right?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520325552468787200
SEAD/DEAD mission types planned.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520117861494132736
Air 2 Ground inventory increase.

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## Two banks of the River



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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1521541924045279232

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## Deino

Any news on the Mk. 2?


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## Surya 1

Deino said:


> Any news on the Mk. 2?



MK2 is getting ready for role out next year. It will be the work horse for IAF for next decade. A top class fighter. Highly optimized. It will have a MTOW of 17.5 ton with 58 KN Dry and 98 KN after burner. Is there any other plane with same engine which has such a high MTOW?

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## Deino

Surya 1 said:


> MK2 is getting ready for role out next year. It will be the work horse for IAF for next decade. A top class fighter. Highly optimized. It will have a MTOW of 17.5 ton with 58 KN Dry and 98 KN after burner. Is there any other plane with same engine which has such a high MTOW?




Well … a 10 t Engines for a MTOW of 17 t??? Not sure how this should be good?!

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## Farhan Bohra

Deino said:


> Well … a 10 t Engines for a MTOW of 17 t??? Not sure how this should be good?!











Gripen E-series | Saab


Gripen E-series is a true swing-role fighter with outstanding capabilities. The fighter is developed to counter and defeat the most advanced threats in a modern battlespace and to continuously evolve in order to keep up with new challenges.




www.saab.com





MTOW of Gripen E is same

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## Surya 1

Deino said:


> Well … a 10 t Engines for a MTOW of 17 t??? Not sure how this should be good?!




Sir,

From where did you bring in this 10 t figure? I have not quoted any such figure.

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## Deino

Surya 1 said:


> Sir,
> 
> From where did you bring in this 10 t figure? I have not quoted any such figure.



In fact I only converted what you mentioned:









Surya 1 said:


> ... It will have a MTOW of 17.5 ton with 58 KN Dry and* 98 KN after* burner. ....

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## Two banks of the River

Farhan Bohra said:


> Gripen E-series | Saab
> 
> 
> Gripen E-series is a true swing-role fighter with outstanding capabilities. The fighter is developed to counter and defeat the most advanced threats in a modern battlespace and to continuously evolve in order to keep up with new challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saab.com
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> MTOW of Gripen E is same


Even Mirage 2000 is almost similar. 

Considering aim is to replace M2000, so should be fine.

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## Surya 1

Deino said:


> In fact I only converted what you mentioned:
> 
> View attachment 840770



That is great sir.

However, MTOW is more related to dry thrust. MTOW of any plane shall be in proportion to dry thrust which is available for flight. Wet thrust is used only for few seconds when very high thrust is required such as take off or recovery.

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## air marshal



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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535793391866302464

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535476481345826816

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## Two banks of the River

Changes in NP5 over NP1 & NP2 include 
1. HUD modification for carrier operations. 
2. Change in types of batteries used. 
3. Change from INCOM to V/UHF 
4. Auxiliary Air Intake Doors 

Additional LRUs 
Pods : SPJ , Laser Designator 
Inflight Refueling Probe 
HMDS, CMDS, TACAN, VOR/ILS, SLB, Lightening modifications

It was supposed to fly in 2016, but work stopped on it after it was decided that NLCA TD program will not move forward. 

It was revived when TEDBF program was assured. Will not be used as Naval Test bed untill TEDBF prototypes comes online.

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## Deino

Any news - especially an image - concerning the first Mk.2 prototype?

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## Two banks of the River

Deino said:


> Any news - especially an image - concerning the first Mk.2 prototype?


Nope. But we know that work on 1 prototype is going on. Work on rest 3 were supposed to start by now. But hasn't happened till now. Reasons unknown. 

There's some delay in rolling out of MK1A too.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Deino said:


> Any news - especially an image - concerning the first Mk.2 prototype?


Nope but you can enjoy this video of National Aerospace Laboratories with a wind tunnel model of the LCA Mark-2
Also some nice footage of weapons integration studies on Jags etc




DRDO Chief Dr Reddy and ADA Chief Dr Deodhare in attendance
Another important guest present, is the father of the Tejas program Dr Kota Harinarayana





This was the plan as of 18 months ago:

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## Deino

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Nope but you can enjoy this video of National Aerospace Laboratories with a wind tunnel model of the LCA Mark-2
> Also some nice footage of weapons integration studies on Jags etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO Chief Dr Reddy and ADA Chief Dr Deodhare in attendance




Thank you so much!






Wow ... especially since it reveals some interesting details on the revised intakes.

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## Deino

Also interesting ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536399499073007621

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## Super Falcon

jet but not indigenous


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> View attachment 853686
> 
> 
> Wow ... especially since it reveals some interesting details on the revised intakes.



This was always the plan for the Tejas Mk2. It is just that the quality of the models on display isn't anywhere near as good as that of a wind tunnel model. There was an article on Delhi Defence Review in 2019 discussing the changes in the air intakes, how it is not shielded any longer and how it is angled.

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## air marshal

Indian Air Force HAL Tejas Mk.1 - Photo by SalmanFalconsPK - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk

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## Raj-Hindustani

LCA Tejas Mk 1A Flying Test Bed (SP-25) Conducts First Flight


LCA Tejas Mk 1A Flying Test Bed (SP-25) Conducts First Flight




www.theigmp.org

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## MirageBlue

Raj-Hindustani said:


> View attachment 859413
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LCA Tejas Mk 1A Flying Test Bed (SP-25) Conducts First Flight
> 
> 
> LCA Tejas Mk 1A Flying Test Bed (SP-25) Conducts First Flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theigmp.org


Not sure why HAL didn't make a big deal about this. We know that different systems and sub-systems were already being flown on 2 modified LSP Tejas Mk1 prototypes. 

But it seems that SP-25 was fitted with most (if not all) of the Mk1A's upgraded systems and flown. People were waiting for an upgraded Mk1A prototype to be rolled out and instead they just rolled out the upgrades on an IAF Serial Production fighter, meant to be handed over to No.18 Squadron.

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## SQ8

Interestingly I heard about this from an Indian friend a weeks back so not so secret.
Especially regarding whats being tested in the spine and leading edges.


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## lightoftruth

Things are fastening up.

Expect Tejas mark 2 flight next year as well.


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## hembo

SQ8 said:


> Interestingly I heard about this from an Indian friend a weeks back so not so secret.
> *Especially regarding whats being tested in the spine and leading edges.*



 Care to throw some light for us ignorants?

@MirageBlue may also chip in please.. 

As for the relative silence on HAL's part, I guess the fact that they're using SP-25 is the precise reason. Also, once they validate full upgrades on SP-25, they'll migrate to dedicated MK1A prototype with the usual funfare & merriment.

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## shayyman

lol


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## MirageBlue

This was what HAL Chairman R Madhavan stated on a HAL Q4 Earnings call, regarding the Tejas Mk1A

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## Raj-Hindustani

Few Important Specification of Tejas MK1-A :

1. Uttam AESA Radar 

2. Integration of BVR's like *Astra 1 and 2 (110 KM and 160 KM) *and Derby (I,II).

3. More Modern Avionics.

4. Made maintenance-friendly by re-configuring some of its LRUs and proper distribution of the dead weight in the aircraft.

6. Integrated electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor.

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## Deino

Correction ... the news seems to be correct, but this is not SP-25 but SP-26


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542811119089491968

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## SQ8

hembo said:


> Care to throw some light for us ignorants?
> 
> @MirageBlue may also chip in please..
> 
> As for the relative silence on HAL's part, I guess the fact that they're using SP-25 is the precise reason. Also, once they validate full upgrades on SP-25, they'll migrate to dedicated MK1A prototype with the usual funfare & merriment.


Apparently some inspiration from the Rafale and concepts for the AMCA in play in terms of EW. Distributed Antenna

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## ayesha.a

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Few Important Specification of Tejas MK1-A :
> 
> 1. Uttam AESA Radar


The first few MK1-A will definitely field the Elta-2052 radar. The next batches are expected to have Uttam.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Indian first production Tejas Mk1A made secret maiden flight







bulgarianmilitary.com


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

_– By Raflanker_

A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s have a most detailed discussion along with documented evidences to understand what Tejas as an aircraft was supposed to be and what it currently offers and what it will be in future, while having some basic comparisons with other light fighters. 





Tejas Timeline

LCA since start was developed as a replacement to Mig 21 and 27 of IAF. It was envisaged as a light interceptor with limited Ground attack capability. The program was sanctioned in 1983 and ADA was setup in 1984 (the development agency itself was created after program sanction). After issuance of Air Staff Requirement in 1985, ADA,DRDO, HAL and GTRE initiated for some super ambitious system developments like Kaveri Engine (1987), Multi-Mode Radar (1991), Radome(1989) , MFDs, FBW, etc.

In 1987, Dassault-Breguet was hired as consultant for designing and system integration. Design was finalized in 1990 and funding for prototype development was sanctioned in 1993. In 1995, first TD rolled out. However, first flight was delayed till 2001 due to technical problems encountered (something quite normal in pilot projects). But even before the 1st flight, IAF changed certain requirements in 1997, these included certain changes in EW suite and change in CCM from R-60 to R-73. Against all odds 1st TD flew in year 2001. Snecma was roped in for kaveri engine in same year.

In 2006, MMR was found deficient and hence ELTA was roped in for co-development and consultancy. In 2006, contract for 20 IOC variant was concluded, around the time when Tejas 2nd and 3rd prototype took 1st flight. IOC demanded capability to carry bombs and CCM. In 2007, Tejas 1st time fired R-73E. But IAF revised ASR in 2009 to integrate CCM with MMR and HMDS as pre-requisite for IOC, instead of same being done after IOC. Also IAF asked for integration of Python 5 as CCM. Further even though IAF has asked for BVR in initial requirements, BVR was only selected in 2009. Hence, ADA placed order for derby in 2011 and delivery in 2014. In 2011, IAF placed order for 20 FOC version with pre-requisite to fire BVR. In 2014-15, IAF further asked for A2A refuelling as pre-requisite for FOC which was earlier planned for MK-1A. Owning to technical problem encountered as well as multiple requirement changes, IOC-1 was released in 2011, IOC-2 in 2013 and FOC in 2019.

But such delays are normal and fighter programs around the world has encountered delays and have similar timelines as Tejas. In many cases, aircraft was inducted with limited or reduced capablities, which were than added after induction. Comparison with some other fighters developed by already established major players around same time –


EFT – Development was initiated in 1983 with British Aerospace EAP, which was Tech Demonstrator for EFT taking to skies in 1986, while 1st EFT prototype flew in 1994 with introduction in 2003.
Rafale Tech demonstrator 1st flew in 1986, with 1st Rafale C model flying in 1991 and introduction in 2001.
Gripen program was initiated in 1979, with 1st flight taking place in 1988 and introduction in 1996 with limited capabilities. Combat capable Gripen was only introduced in 2002.
J10 program was initiated in 1981, approval was granted in 1984 with 1st flight in 1998 and introduction in 2006.
If we compare the timeline, Tejas was sanctioned in 1983 with development starting in 1993, it 1st flew in 2001 with IOC in 2011 and IOC 2 in 2013 and FOC in 2019. FOC was delayed mainly due to late selection of BVR and making In-flight refuelling a perquisite.

*Delays

Due to Development Agencies*

The project was conceptualised around the time when India barely had industrial base to support such advanced project. India went in with many ambitious projects around the same time which included IGMDP, Dhruv, Arjun, Tejas, Pinaka, Akash etc. This was the time when self reliance was considered necessity, hence much focus was given on all indigenous product. As a result ADA and other agencies went in with complex projects like Kaveri, MMR, MFDs, Radome, FBW, EW suite etc. However, multiple foreign firms were involved from time to time in the process and most of them offered their own products instead of indigenous development, for example PS-05/A was offered by Ericsson, Dassault offered its 3 channel FBW and so on. But DRDO decided to pursue project indigenously using consultancy by these firms. Many of these projects eventually didn’t succeed even though major foreign players were involved as consultants and integrators.

Major examples of such foreign collaboration were Dassault in designing of LCA, Snecma for Kaveri, Ericsson and later Elta for MMR, LM for FBW etc. Failure of many of these resulted in design changes and integration of imported system which lead to multiple delays. Practically failures and delays are to be expected when you are taking complex project but that does not mean you give up. However, Agencies did wasted a lot of time in trying to overcome the deficiencies and failing to achieve the targets and eventually opting for import.

The alternative was to have a JV with an established player. But in such cases, the best you get is your stamp on aircraft, not much is achieved in terms of R&D, however your timeline would have been somewhat shorter. Therefore, India took correct but somewhat faulty approach. Agencies should have been more prudent with selection of systems to be developed indigenously instead of trying to build everything in-house. However, even with considerable delays, ADA still delivered a modern fighter comparable to other fighters in its class. And with constant indigenous upgrades rolling in, it will remain competitive in considerable future.

*Indian Airforce*

Why to blame only development agencies, when IAF itself was over ambitious with its timeline and shortsighted with its requirement. In ASR 1985, the plan was to have fighter in interceptor role, with MMR and SPJ pod and capable of firing R60 and a BVR (which was not specified at that time) along with Air to ground bombs. It clearly reflects the approach was to match what was available in the world around that time instead of what should be the future.

The timeline for induction of LCA was 1994, but the prototype development was sanctioned only in 1993. If ASR were already going obsolete, IAF should have modified the requirements in 1993 itself, but they decided to do so in 1997 i.e. 2 years after the rollout of TD. Revised requirements demanded CMDS, RWR, integration of CCM with HMDS and MMR, integration of M-62 bombs etc. In 2009, ASR were revised again and Derby was finally selected for BVR roles.

Than around 2014-15, IFR was asked as pre requisite for FOC which was initially requirement for mk1a. In all, requirements were changed on 10 occasions during the development cycle of Tejas, i.e. between 1997-2015, as per MOD reply to PAC. Instead, like JF 17, aircraft could have been inducted while additional requirements could have been added to in-service airframes. The point being, delay the induction to integrate new technologies only resulted in further delays, making already existing technologies obsolete which again needed replacement. It eventually became a cycle. However one cannot totally blame IAF, Induction happened almost 30 years after the ASR were first released, which necessitated ASR revision, but then revising them in multiple batches in a short period was wrong.

*Collective Fault*

Delays cannot be fully attributed to development agencies when IAF and MOD (which at many times delayed in fund release) are equally responsible. But has the delays made Tejas obsolete? The answer is no, constant upgrades has kept Tejas comparable to similar fighters of the class. Meanwhile the burden of depleting strength of IAF squadron cannot be totally put on Tejas, as IOC and FOC and even signing of mk1a was delayed due to constant requirement changes demanded by IAF or by simply sitting on the file. Not to mention IAF failure to acquire 7 squadrons of MMRCA which were supposed to be inducted by now as well as falling apart of FGFA program are equally responsible that IAF strength has depleted and Mig-21 are still flying. 

*Tejas being small and overweight resulting in less fuel and reduced payload. *





The argument in itself is irony. Tejas from start was conceptualised as light weight interceptor cum ground attack aircraft. But today people want it to have range and capabilities of a medium sized fighter. The allegation is that as per ASR empty weight should not have exceeded 5500 kg. But today Tejas stand at 6950 kg.

The simple question is :


Were ASR revised overtime?
Did such revision involved addition of new systems?
If yes, does the weight penalty for such addition was considered?
Those with agenda won’t answer these, they will just allege that Tejas is overweight. Let’s assume it to be overweight for a moment and ask has this resulted in non compliance of other ASR? The answer is no. The ASR demanded weight to be less than 5500 kg and MOU stipulated it at 5365 kg with 3120 kg of internal fuel. Tejas current weight is 6950 kg and internal fuel capacity is at 2950 kg. Around 170 kg less than stipulated. However, Tejas carry 300-400 kg of ballast(dead) weight to maintain center of gravity. HAL has been working around to re-align LRUs so as to remove this weight, hence making aircraft lighter. Also addition of IFR also means that this 170 kg can be managed. Not to mention at 2950 kg (fuel system was modified in 17-18 to increase fuel capacity), Tejas still carry more fuel than comparable fighters.

The other point raised is Tejas maximum payload has decreased due to weight increase. Well obviously it has, but at the expense of some important systems addition. Also as per ASR, IAF had demanded minimum payload capacity of 3000kg, while Tejas offers around 3600 kg with full fuel and has been tested with external payload of around 4000kg (likely with reduced internal fuel).




_Even though JF-17 of ferry range don’t match with its specification, we have taken it as such because of it being mentioned on PAC official website._
*Official brochure and website data*

A small comparison with fighters in the similar category will further put an end to this argument. JF-17 has empty weight of 7965 kg and internal fuel capacity of 2450 kg, and has payload capacity of only 3400kg with full fuel, high empty weight is mainly due to all metal airframe. Block 3 is supposed to be lighter with more capabilities. 

Gripen C empty weight is 6800 kg and carries 2400 kg fuel internally, the payload is on upper side at 4800 kg, thanks to low internal fuel carried as well as higher MOTW because of canard-delta design, but at the same time Gripen C is powered by a lower thrust engine, making TWR comparable. Coming to KAI FA-50, its empty weight stands at 6470 kg, internal fuel capacity at 2690kg and payload at 3140kg with full fuel. FA-50 though weights less, also carries less fuel and payload and is powered by lower thrust engine. Hopefully this should put an end to weight and payload discussion.





*(Extract from ADA annual Report 2017-18)
Tejas has less range and combat radius*





The Tejas is claimed to be lacking in range and combat radius. Tejas will never see fight going into foreign territories or Tejas is only good for intercept roles or for defensive roles or it can’t do balakot type bombing or Tejas has less than 1 hour of on-station time and so on. These points are mostly quoted as such, however no heed is given to documented evidences available in public domain. In respect of Tejas, these are mostly hearsay, as no document is available to confirm or deny combat radius. However we will base our estimation on data available in public domain. As per HAL brochure in Aero India 2019, Tejas ferry range is quoted at 2000km+. Also what we know of publicly available information is that, Tejas flew from Sulur to Changi, Singapore with a halt at Port Blair.

Google Earth distance calculation tool put distance between Sulur and Port Blair at 1700km+ and between Port Blair and Changi at around 1700km. However we all know that’s not how flight path works, In reality it involve multiple waypoints as well as altitude restrictions because of civil aviation traffic. Now while flying to Port Blair which is across the sea, a considerable amount of fuel reserve must have been kept in mind to cater for any adverse situation. Similarly, Tejas fly from Bengaluru to Jaisalmer which is again around 1700 km straight line at 28k feet and with ATC routing, as mentioned by Indranil Roy in his article for DDR. So it can be said with considerable surety that Tejas range is in excess of 2000km. Now this is in 3 drop tank configuration, however with 2 drop tank configuration, this range don’t drop down much for 2 reasons.


Centerline fuel tank is small at 800ltr. Even with basic distance/fuel calculations range reduction will be less than 250km
With removal of centerline drop tank, drag and overall weight of the aircraft gets reduced, which allows better ranges. 




Tejas Combat radius estimation against PAF bases
So with 2 drop tank configuration range can be assumed at 1800km+. Therefore, it is absurd to claim that aircraft which can fly 1800km with 2 drop tanks have short legs. Not to mention, the removal of 300-400kg of ballast weight, will further help in range improvement, be it in form of internal fuel increase or empty weight reduction, reducing overall drag. Now if for basic calculation, I consider combat radius as 1/3rd of above range, so as to cater for weapons drag, after burner time and lo-lo flying, combat radius comes at 600km in 2 drop tanks,2 bvr,2wvr and SPJ pod configuration. With 1 centerline drop tank, 4bvr, 2 wvr and SPJ it should come at 450 km. Not to forget Tejas is capable of in-flight refueling, so this radius can be increased with IFR, if needed.

Further, current drops tanks design creates more drag, therefore new composite tanks are in development which will be optimized for drag so as to further improve the range. Even in current situation consider a 550km radius in configuration of 2 Drop tanks, 3 LGBs or 5 hammer or 2 rampage, Lightening pod and 2 CCMs(See google earth Image).Tejas not just only defend well, it will go for offense too, specially after integration of Stand-off systems like Hammer and Rampage. Also I will end it with this quotation from HAL reply to Technical Evaluation Committee dated 22/01/2019–“_the ferry range of the aircraft is in compliance with RFP requirements.”_

*Electronic Warfare suite*

Another argument being propagated against Tejas is that it lacks EW suite. At 1st we need to understand what EW suite means, it is a combination of multiple sensors so as to keep pilot situationally aware against incoming threat and helps him fight back. Typically EW suite consist of CMDS, RWR, MAWS, SPJ, ESM and ECM measure.LCA currently come equipped with CMDS, RWR, SDR, conformal VHF/UHF antenna and data link. As of today It lacks MAWS as well as Self Protection Jammer. MAWS was neither an requirement in ASR, nor you generally see them in Light fighters. For SPJ, HAL and DRDO has to take criticism for failing to develop an indigenous one or integrating a foreign one till now, even when they have plenty of experience of integrating jamming pods with multiple Indian fighters.

There has been news of EL/M 8222WB being integrated with Tejas, but same cannot be confirmed from any reliable source. However, lately good progress is being made in terms of integration of indigenously developed DRDO ASPJ pod. There are already multiple tenders as well as contract awards for various subsystem integration of DRDO ASPJ with Tejas. And this last requirement with respect to EW suite will also be complied with pretty soon. Further claiming SPJ was supposed to be internal is wrong, IAF requirements from 1997 was for SPJ preferably internal or podded.

Means option was with developer to keep it internally or in pod configuration. Anyways DRDO ASPJ which is being integrated with mk1a will be retrofitted with mk1 too. Also none of the light fighter currently carries SPJ internally, be it Gripen C, JF17 or FA-50. Infact no IAF fighter aircraft carry SPJ internally except Rafale.





*Weapons Capabilities*

Tejas currently lacks Stand-off weapons capability in air to ground and air to sea role. Gripen and JF-17 both are capable of these capabilities. But it is interesting to note that, IAF which changed weapons requirement as much as 10 times in its development cycle did not put requirement of Stand-off weapons for Tejas FOC. That’s why focus of development team mostly remain with testing and proving of FOC requirements of IAF.

This is also because design philosophy behind Tejas was to be a replacement for Mig-21, Jaguar and Mig-27. Tejas currently can carry different types of dumb bombs, HSLD bombs, Laser guided Bombs, rocket pods and cluster bombs for ground attack role. While in Air to Air role, it is as capable as any modern fighter, armed with R-73E, Python 5 and Derby coupled with HMDS and EL/M 2032, Tejas is a deadly enemy. However, that’s not where Tejas is going to stop, it is now being converted into light weight multi-role fighter.

Tejas is currently being integrated with Astra mk 1 of which carriage trials are already going on, it will get integrated with Hammer, JDAM, Rampage etc. Not just that, ADA and HAL has quite elaborate plan for Tejas which involve it being integrated with latest indigenous weapons like astra mk 2, SFDR, NGARM, Brahmos NG, STAR, NASM-MR, TARA, Gautham, SAAW and so on. Further plan is to convert Tejas into mothership for CATS (Combat Air Teaming System) called Tejas MAX. In al,l even though Tejas is late, it won’t remain stagnant in terms of capabilities. Tejas for a considerable future will keep getting staggered upgrades to keep it potent for a considerable future.





*Things which no one talks about*





*Infographic by Amit R. Kashyap (Defence Decode)*

Whenever articles on Tejas are published, they at large only talk about the departments in which it has encountered some problems or failures, so let’s today talk about stuff which are overlooked in the negative publicity. It is no lie to say that it is because of Tejas that a massive aviation sector industrial base has been created within India, which not just had allowed Tejas to mature as a platform, but also has allowed multiple spin off and advancements in terms of new fighter development. Today India is pursuing multiple projects at same time, these involve Tejas mk1a, Tejas SMART/LIFT, Tejas MAX, NLCA, TEDBF, and AMCA. Had India been not ambitious with its approach of being self reliant in fighter development, it might still have been dependent on foreign partners for collaboration like MKI, JF-17,KF-X and so on. The ecosystem which Tejas helped India develop is going to benefit India in a very long run. I mean how many countries are there which have actually made indigenous fighter land on a carrier? With Tejas, not just came spin offs, it was also instrumental in creation of many advanced technologies, development & certification agencies, test centers and development of multiple systems. Infact, Tejas itself is now 60% indigenous with more systems being indigenized. The Indigenous system in tejas are-


SDR, conformal VHF/UHF antennas, Tactical Navigation antennas, radio altimeter, air data probe, IFF, data link
Canopy, Avionic sensors which include Digital audio control system (DACS), Unified video cum digital recorder, Smart MFDs, HUD, HOTAS
Advanced composite material, Radar absorbing structure for bulkhead and antenna mounting brackets, RAM coatings for cockpit and body, different type of aluminum and titanium alloys, drop tanks.
on board oxygen generating system, quadruplex FBW, Environmental control system, Automatic Takeoff & Landing (ATOL)
Gear box, Landing gear, Jet fuel Starter, air brakes, multiple actuators, power take-off shaft
Mission computer, radar computer, RWR, CMDS.
The major systems which are in process of Indigenization are Uttam AESA radar, ASPJ, Quartz radome, HMDS etc.

In all 210 out of 344 LRUs are indigenous, while another 40+ are in process of being indigenized. Now Majority of these will see some or other application in future fighter programs either in form of spin offs or in form of next generation versions. Not just this, we have above talked in detail about indigenous weapons package being developed to be integrated with Tejas.

It is amply clear that time and again, Tejas is only blamed for what it has not yet achieved but will always be ignored for all of its achievement. Tejas can be flown in multiple configuration and currently fulfils the role which IAF mandated it to do i.e. 

A deadly interceptor and Air defense fighter particularly with AOA of 26°,mach 1.6 speed, HMDS, EL/M-2032 radar, RWR, data link and different A2A weapons configurations like 


1*800 ltr center line drop tank, 4*derby/Astra and 2*python 5/R-73E.
2*1200/800 ltr DT, 2*Derby/Astra and 2*Python 5
A capable ground attack aircraft with


2*800ltrs DT, 4*Tandem 1000lbs bombs, 2*Python 5/R73E and lightening pod
2*1200 ltrs DT, 3*griffin LGB, 2*python 5/R73E and lightening pod
Many other combinations can be made which shows Tejas is indeed a versatile fighter.

In future with integration of EL/M 2052/Uttam AESA radar, DRDO ASPJ and most planned weapon systems as discussed earlier, it will truly become a light multirole fighter.









Tejas - Not what you think it is. - Alpha Defense


– By Raflanker A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s...




alphadefense.in

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## ulin elup

ISRO should take over DRDO


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## Primus

Alpha defense 😂😂😂😂

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## shayyman

*Expectation:*






*Reality:*


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## avenuepark57

New Delhi: Indian authorities have announced that the first prototype of the Tejas Mk1A, which is actually the planned mass-production version of the Tejas and the basis for all others, has secretly made its maiden flight.

The Indian Ministry of Defense reported that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] conducted the test flight in an area near their production facility.

HAL first upgraded the aircraft with serial production number SP-25 to Mk1A level which was at the level of Tejas Mk1. The SP-25 will act as a test platform for the entire production line of the Mk1A version and will undergo certification tests over the next 30 months.

After completion of tests, deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A will begin from March 2024. The delivery of 83 aircraft ordered for the Indian Air Force is scheduled to be completed in 2028

Tejas Mk1A is the best-developed version of Tejas Mk1 which reached full operational capability [FOC] in 2020. Mk1A is equipped with Indian Uttam AESA radar, a self-defense system, radar receiver warning, and an external muting unit.

The Mk1A will have a lower weight compared to the Mk1. One of the most important changes made compared to the Mk1 is that the Indian-made Astra 1 and Astra 2 Resight Air-Air Missiles [AAM] will be used in the Mk1A. Currently, only Mk1 FOCs can fire Derby Oversight Air-Air Missiles.









India’s first production Tejas Mk1A made secret maiden flight


New Delhi: Indian authorities have announced that the first prototype of the Tejas Mk1A, which is actually the planned mass-production version of the Tejas and the basis for all others, has secretly made its maiden flight. The Indian Ministry of Defense reported that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited




www.psuconnect.in

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## SQ8

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> _– By Raflanker_
> 
> A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s have a most detailed discussion along with documented evidences to understand what Tejas as an aircraft was supposed to be and what it currently offers and what it will be in future, while having some basic comparisons with other light fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Timeline
> 
> LCA since start was developed as a replacement to Mig 21 and 27 of IAF. It was envisaged as a light interceptor with limited Ground attack capability. The program was sanctioned in 1983 and ADA was setup in 1984 (the development agency itself was created after program sanction). After issuance of Air Staff Requirement in 1985, ADA,DRDO, HAL and GTRE initiated for some super ambitious system developments like Kaveri Engine (1987), Multi-Mode Radar (1991), Radome(1989) , MFDs, FBW, etc.
> 
> In 1987, Dassault-Breguet was hired as consultant for designing and system integration. Design was finalized in 1990 and funding for prototype development was sanctioned in 1993. In 1995, first TD rolled out. However, first flight was delayed till 2001 due to technical problems encountered (something quite normal in pilot projects). But even before the 1st flight, IAF changed certain requirements in 1997, these included certain changes in EW suite and change in CCM from R-60 to R-73. Against all odds 1st TD flew in year 2001. Snecma was roped in for kaveri engine in same year.
> 
> In 2006, MMR was found deficient and hence ELTA was roped in for co-development and consultancy. In 2006, contract for 20 IOC variant was concluded, around the time when Tejas 2nd and 3rd prototype took 1st flight. IOC demanded capability to carry bombs and CCM. In 2007, Tejas 1st time fired R-73E. But IAF revised ASR in 2009 to integrate CCM with MMR and HMDS as pre-requisite for IOC, instead of same being done after IOC. Also IAF asked for integration of Python 5 as CCM. Further even though IAF has asked for BVR in initial requirements, BVR was only selected in 2009. Hence, ADA placed order for derby in 2011 and delivery in 2014. In 2011, IAF placed order for 20 FOC version with pre-requisite to fire BVR. In 2014-15, IAF further asked for A2A refuelling as pre-requisite for FOC which was earlier planned for MK-1A. Owning to technical problem encountered as well as multiple requirement changes, IOC-1 was released in 2011, IOC-2 in 2013 and FOC in 2019.
> 
> But such delays are normal and fighter programs around the world has encountered delays and have similar timelines as Tejas. In many cases, aircraft was inducted with limited or reduced capablities, which were than added after induction. Comparison with some other fighters developed by already established major players around same time –
> 
> 
> EFT – Development was initiated in 1983 with British Aerospace EAP, which was Tech Demonstrator for EFT taking to skies in 1986, while 1st EFT prototype flew in 1994 with introduction in 2003.
> Rafale Tech demonstrator 1st flew in 1986, with 1st Rafale C model flying in 1991 and introduction in 2001.
> Gripen program was initiated in 1979, with 1st flight taking place in 1988 and introduction in 1996 with limited capabilities. Combat capable Gripen was only introduced in 2002.
> J10 program was initiated in 1981, approval was granted in 1984 with 1st flight in 1998 and introduction in 2006.
> If we compare the timeline, Tejas was sanctioned in 1983 with development starting in 1993, it 1st flew in 2001 with IOC in 2011 and IOC 2 in 2013 and FOC in 2019. FOC was delayed mainly due to late selection of BVR and making In-flight refuelling a perquisite.
> 
> *Delays
> 
> Due to Development Agencies*
> 
> The project was conceptualised around the time when India barely had industrial base to support such advanced project. India went in with many ambitious projects around the same time which included IGMDP, Dhruv, Arjun, Tejas, Pinaka, Akash etc. This was the time when self reliance was considered necessity, hence much focus was given on all indigenous product. As a result ADA and other agencies went in with complex projects like Kaveri, MMR, MFDs, Radome, FBW, EW suite etc. However, multiple foreign firms were involved from time to time in the process and most of them offered their own products instead of indigenous development, for example PS-05/A was offered by Ericsson, Dassault offered its 3 channel FBW and so on. But DRDO decided to pursue project indigenously using consultancy by these firms. Many of these projects eventually didn’t succeed even though major foreign players were involved as consultants and integrators.
> 
> Major examples of such foreign collaboration were Dassault in designing of LCA, Snecma for Kaveri, Ericsson and later Elta for MMR, LM for FBW etc. Failure of many of these resulted in design changes and integration of imported system which lead to multiple delays. Practically failures and delays are to be expected when you are taking complex project but that does not mean you give up. However, Agencies did wasted a lot of time in trying to overcome the deficiencies and failing to achieve the targets and eventually opting for import.
> 
> The alternative was to have a JV with an established player. But in such cases, the best you get is your stamp on aircraft, not much is achieved in terms of R&D, however your timeline would have been somewhat shorter. Therefore, India took correct but somewhat faulty approach. Agencies should have been more prudent with selection of systems to be developed indigenously instead of trying to build everything in-house. However, even with considerable delays, ADA still delivered a modern fighter comparable to other fighters in its class. And with constant indigenous upgrades rolling in, it will remain competitive in considerable future.
> 
> *Indian Airforce*
> 
> Why to blame only development agencies, when IAF itself was over ambitious with its timeline and shortsighted with its requirement. In ASR 1985, the plan was to have fighter in interceptor role, with MMR and SPJ pod and capable of firing R60 and a BVR (which was not specified at that time) along with Air to ground bombs. It clearly reflects the approach was to match what was available in the world around that time instead of what should be the future.
> 
> The timeline for induction of LCA was 1994, but the prototype development was sanctioned only in 1993. If ASR were already going obsolete, IAF should have modified the requirements in 1993 itself, but they decided to do so in 1997 i.e. 2 years after the rollout of TD. Revised requirements demanded CMDS, RWR, integration of CCM with HMDS and MMR, integration of M-62 bombs etc. In 2009, ASR were revised again and Derby was finally selected for BVR roles.
> 
> Than around 2014-15, IFR was asked as pre requisite for FOC which was initially requirement for mk1a. In all, requirements were changed on 10 occasions during the development cycle of Tejas, i.e. between 1997-2015, as per MOD reply to PAC. Instead, like JF 17, aircraft could have been inducted while additional requirements could have been added to in-service airframes. The point being, delay the induction to integrate new technologies only resulted in further delays, making already existing technologies obsolete which again needed replacement. It eventually became a cycle. However one cannot totally blame IAF, Induction happened almost 30 years after the ASR were first released, which necessitated ASR revision, but then revising them in multiple batches in a short period was wrong.
> 
> *Collective Fault*
> 
> Delays cannot be fully attributed to development agencies when IAF and MOD (which at many times delayed in fund release) are equally responsible. But has the delays made Tejas obsolete? The answer is no, constant upgrades has kept Tejas comparable to similar fighters of the class. Meanwhile the burden of depleting strength of IAF squadron cannot be totally put on Tejas, as IOC and FOC and even signing of mk1a was delayed due to constant requirement changes demanded by IAF or by simply sitting on the file. Not to mention IAF failure to acquire 7 squadrons of MMRCA which were supposed to be inducted by now as well as falling apart of FGFA program are equally responsible that IAF strength has depleted and Mig-21 are still flying.
> 
> *Tejas being small and overweight resulting in less fuel and reduced payload. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The argument in itself is irony. Tejas from start was conceptualised as light weight interceptor cum ground attack aircraft. But today people want it to have range and capabilities of a medium sized fighter. The allegation is that as per ASR empty weight should not have exceeded 5500 kg. But today Tejas stand at 6950 kg.
> 
> The simple question is :
> 
> 
> Were ASR revised overtime?
> Did such revision involved addition of new systems?
> If yes, does the weight penalty for such addition was considered?
> Those with agenda won’t answer these, they will just allege that Tejas is overweight. Let’s assume it to be overweight for a moment and ask has this resulted in non compliance of other ASR? The answer is no. The ASR demanded weight to be less than 5500 kg and MOU stipulated it at 5365 kg with 3120 kg of internal fuel. Tejas current weight is 6950 kg and internal fuel capacity is at 2950 kg. Around 170 kg less than stipulated. However, Tejas carry 300-400 kg of ballast(dead) weight to maintain center of gravity. HAL has been working around to re-align LRUs so as to remove this weight, hence making aircraft lighter. Also addition of IFR also means that this 170 kg can be managed. Not to mention at 2950 kg (fuel system was modified in 17-18 to increase fuel capacity), Tejas still carry more fuel than comparable fighters.
> 
> The other point raised is Tejas maximum payload has decreased due to weight increase. Well obviously it has, but at the expense of some important systems addition. Also as per ASR, IAF had demanded minimum payload capacity of 3000kg, while Tejas offers around 3600 kg with full fuel and has been tested with external payload of around 4000kg (likely with reduced internal fuel).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Even though JF-17 of ferry range don’t match with its specification, we have taken it as such because of it being mentioned on PAC official website._
> *Official brochure and website data*
> 
> A small comparison with fighters in the similar category will further put an end to this argument. JF-17 has empty weight of 7965 kg and internal fuel capacity of 2450 kg, and has payload capacity of only 3400kg with full fuel, high empty weight is mainly due to all metal airframe. Block 3 is supposed to be lighter with more capabilities.
> 
> Gripen C empty weight is 6800 kg and carries 2400 kg fuel internally, the payload is on upper side at 4800 kg, thanks to low internal fuel carried as well as higher MOTW because of canard-delta design, but at the same time Gripen C is powered by a lower thrust engine, making TWR comparable. Coming to KAI FA-50, its empty weight stands at 6470 kg, internal fuel capacity at 2690kg and payload at 3140kg with full fuel. FA-50 though weights less, also carries less fuel and payload and is powered by lower thrust engine. Hopefully this should put an end to weight and payload discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(Extract from ADA annual Report 2017-18)
> Tejas has less range and combat radius*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tejas is claimed to be lacking in range and combat radius. Tejas will never see fight going into foreign territories or Tejas is only good for intercept roles or for defensive roles or it can’t do balakot type bombing or Tejas has less than 1 hour of on-station time and so on. These points are mostly quoted as such, however no heed is given to documented evidences available in public domain. In respect of Tejas, these are mostly hearsay, as no document is available to confirm or deny combat radius. However we will base our estimation on data available in public domain. As per HAL brochure in Aero India 2019, Tejas ferry range is quoted at 2000km+. Also what we know of publicly available information is that, Tejas flew from Sulur to Changi, Singapore with a halt at Port Blair.
> 
> Google Earth distance calculation tool put distance between Sulur and Port Blair at 1700km+ and between Port Blair and Changi at around 1700km. However we all know that’s not how flight path works, In reality it involve multiple waypoints as well as altitude restrictions because of civil aviation traffic. Now while flying to Port Blair which is across the sea, a considerable amount of fuel reserve must have been kept in mind to cater for any adverse situation. Similarly, Tejas fly from Bengaluru to Jaisalmer which is again around 1700 km straight line at 28k feet and with ATC routing, as mentioned by Indranil Roy in his article for DDR. So it can be said with considerable surety that Tejas range is in excess of 2000km. Now this is in 3 drop tank configuration, however with 2 drop tank configuration, this range don’t drop down much for 2 reasons.
> 
> 
> Centerline fuel tank is small at 800ltr. Even with basic distance/fuel calculations range reduction will be less than 250km
> With removal of centerline drop tank, drag and overall weight of the aircraft gets reduced, which allows better ranges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas Combat radius estimation against PAF bases
> So with 2 drop tank configuration range can be assumed at 1800km+. Therefore, it is absurd to claim that aircraft which can fly 1800km with 2 drop tanks have short legs. Not to mention, the removal of 300-400kg of ballast weight, will further help in range improvement, be it in form of internal fuel increase or empty weight reduction, reducing overall drag. Now if for basic calculation, I consider combat radius as 1/3rd of above range, so as to cater for weapons drag, after burner time and lo-lo flying, combat radius comes at 600km in 2 drop tanks,2 bvr,2wvr and SPJ pod configuration. With 1 centerline drop tank, 4bvr, 2 wvr and SPJ it should come at 450 km. Not to forget Tejas is capable of in-flight refueling, so this radius can be increased with IFR, if needed.
> 
> Further, current drops tanks design creates more drag, therefore new composite tanks are in development which will be optimized for drag so as to further improve the range. Even in current situation consider a 550km radius in configuration of 2 Drop tanks, 3 LGBs or 5 hammer or 2 rampage, Lightening pod and 2 CCMs(See google earth Image).Tejas not just only defend well, it will go for offense too, specially after integration of Stand-off systems like Hammer and Rampage. Also I will end it with this quotation from HAL reply to Technical Evaluation Committee dated 22/01/2019–“_the ferry range of the aircraft is in compliance with RFP requirements.”_
> 
> *Electronic Warfare suite*
> 
> Another argument being propagated against Tejas is that it lacks EW suite. At 1st we need to understand what EW suite means, it is a combination of multiple sensors so as to keep pilot situationally aware against incoming threat and helps him fight back. Typically EW suite consist of CMDS, RWR, MAWS, SPJ, ESM and ECM measure.LCA currently come equipped with CMDS, RWR, SDR, conformal VHF/UHF antenna and data link. As of today It lacks MAWS as well as Self Protection Jammer. MAWS was neither an requirement in ASR, nor you generally see them in Light fighters. For SPJ, HAL and DRDO has to take criticism for failing to develop an indigenous one or integrating a foreign one till now, even when they have plenty of experience of integrating jamming pods with multiple Indian fighters.
> 
> There has been news of EL/M 8222WB being integrated with Tejas, but same cannot be confirmed from any reliable source. However, lately good progress is being made in terms of integration of indigenously developed DRDO ASPJ pod. There are already multiple tenders as well as contract awards for various subsystem integration of DRDO ASPJ with Tejas. And this last requirement with respect to EW suite will also be complied with pretty soon. Further claiming SPJ was supposed to be internal is wrong, IAF requirements from 1997 was for SPJ preferably internal or podded.
> 
> Means option was with developer to keep it internally or in pod configuration. Anyways DRDO ASPJ which is being integrated with mk1a will be retrofitted with mk1 too. Also none of the light fighter currently carries SPJ internally, be it Gripen C, JF17 or FA-50. Infact no IAF fighter aircraft carry SPJ internally except Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Weapons Capabilities*
> 
> Tejas currently lacks Stand-off weapons capability in air to ground and air to sea role. Gripen and JF-17 both are capable of these capabilities. But it is interesting to note that, IAF which changed weapons requirement as much as 10 times in its development cycle did not put requirement of Stand-off weapons for Tejas FOC. That’s why focus of development team mostly remain with testing and proving of FOC requirements of IAF.
> 
> This is also because design philosophy behind Tejas was to be a replacement for Mig-21, Jaguar and Mig-27. Tejas currently can carry different types of dumb bombs, HSLD bombs, Laser guided Bombs, rocket pods and cluster bombs for ground attack role. While in Air to Air role, it is as capable as any modern fighter, armed with R-73E, Python 5 and Derby coupled with HMDS and EL/M 2032, Tejas is a deadly enemy. However, that’s not where Tejas is going to stop, it is now being converted into light weight multi-role fighter.
> 
> Tejas is currently being integrated with Astra mk 1 of which carriage trials are already going on, it will get integrated with Hammer, JDAM, Rampage etc. Not just that, ADA and HAL has quite elaborate plan for Tejas which involve it being integrated with latest indigenous weapons like astra mk 2, SFDR, NGARM, Brahmos NG, STAR, NASM-MR, TARA, Gautham, SAAW and so on. Further plan is to convert Tejas into mothership for CATS (Combat Air Teaming System) called Tejas MAX. In al,l even though Tejas is late, it won’t remain stagnant in terms of capabilities. Tejas for a considerable future will keep getting staggered upgrades to keep it potent for a considerable future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Things which no one talks about*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Infographic by Amit R. Kashyap (Defence Decode)*
> 
> Whenever articles on Tejas are published, they at large only talk about the departments in which it has encountered some problems or failures, so let’s today talk about stuff which are overlooked in the negative publicity. It is no lie to say that it is because of Tejas that a massive aviation sector industrial base has been created within India, which not just had allowed Tejas to mature as a platform, but also has allowed multiple spin off and advancements in terms of new fighter development. Today India is pursuing multiple projects at same time, these involve Tejas mk1a, Tejas SMART/LIFT, Tejas MAX, NLCA, TEDBF, and AMCA. Had India been not ambitious with its approach of being self reliant in fighter development, it might still have been dependent on foreign partners for collaboration like MKI, JF-17,KF-X and so on. The ecosystem which Tejas helped India develop is going to benefit India in a very long run. I mean how many countries are there which have actually made indigenous fighter land on a carrier? With Tejas, not just came spin offs, it was also instrumental in creation of many advanced technologies, development & certification agencies, test centers and development of multiple systems. Infact, Tejas itself is now 60% indigenous with more systems being indigenized. The Indigenous system in tejas are-
> 
> 
> SDR, conformal VHF/UHF antennas, Tactical Navigation antennas, radio altimeter, air data probe, IFF, data link
> Canopy, Avionic sensors which include Digital audio control system (DACS), Unified video cum digital recorder, Smart MFDs, HUD, HOTAS
> Advanced composite material, Radar absorbing structure for bulkhead and antenna mounting brackets, RAM coatings for cockpit and body, different type of aluminum and titanium alloys, drop tanks.
> on board oxygen generating system, quadruplex FBW, Environmental control system, Automatic Takeoff & Landing (ATOL)
> Gear box, Landing gear, Jet fuel Starter, air brakes, multiple actuators, power take-off shaft
> Mission computer, radar computer, RWR, CMDS.
> The major systems which are in process of Indigenization are Uttam AESA radar, ASPJ, Quartz radome, HMDS etc.
> 
> In all 210 out of 344 LRUs are indigenous, while another 40+ are in process of being indigenized. Now Majority of these will see some or other application in future fighter programs either in form of spin offs or in form of next generation versions. Not just this, we have above talked in detail about indigenous weapons package being developed to be integrated with Tejas.
> 
> It is amply clear that time and again, Tejas is only blamed for what it has not yet achieved but will always be ignored for all of its achievement. Tejas can be flown in multiple configuration and currently fulfils the role which IAF mandated it to do i.e.
> 
> A deadly interceptor and Air defense fighter particularly with AOA of 26°,mach 1.6 speed, HMDS, EL/M-2032 radar, RWR, data link and different A2A weapons configurations like
> 
> 
> 1*800 ltr center line drop tank, 4*derby/Astra and 2*python 5/R-73E.
> 2*1200/800 ltr DT, 2*Derby/Astra and 2*Python 5
> A capable ground attack aircraft with
> 
> 
> 2*800ltrs DT, 4*Tandem 1000lbs bombs, 2*Python 5/R73E and lightening pod
> 2*1200 ltrs DT, 3*griffin LGB, 2*python 5/R73E and lightening pod
> Many other combinations can be made which shows Tejas is indeed a versatile fighter.
> 
> In future with integration of EL/M 2052/Uttam AESA radar, DRDO ASPJ and most planned weapon systems as discussed earlier, it will truly become a light multirole fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas - Not what you think it is. - Alpha Defense
> 
> 
> – By Raflanker A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphadefense.in


Actually a pretty good article on how the Tejas was “sabotaged” as a project. The platform itself was a fine idea.

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## avenuepark57

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546517271668932610

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548873049616699392

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## SQ8

Two banks of the River said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548873049616699392


18 per sq so 108..
Now are those Mk1 and Mk1A mixed or just Mk1A types?


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## Two banks of the River

SQ8 said:


> 18 per sq so 108..
> Now are those Mk1 and Mk1A mixed or just Mk1A types?


He's talking about mk2. 

For Mk1 there's already 40 for 2 squadrons and for Mk1A 83 for 4 squadrons.


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## migflug

SQ8 said:


> 18 per sq so 108..
> Now are those Mk1 and Mk1A mixed or just Mk1A types?


83 MK1A has already been ordered and these 6 squadrons are for MK2.There was a huge uproar on Twitter yesterday when ACM said "IAFs 114 MRFA project progressing well. Numbers for Tejas Mk2 to be decided when first production model comes: CAS" but today morning there is a confirmation for 6 squadrons!!

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548873049616699392


> Indian Air Force has already given commitment for the induction of six squadrons of Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2 fighter jets. We will decide on additional numbers once the production of these aircraft starts: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari



So the IAF Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari has confirmed that the IAF has committed for 6 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2, which will be sufficient to replace the Mirage-2000I and MiG-29UPG squadrons (of which there are a total of 6).

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## MirageBlue

SQ8 said:


> 18 per sq so 108..
> Now are those Mk1 and Mk1A mixed or just Mk1A types?



16 single seaters and possibly 4 of the Tejas Mk1 trainers as well. Unless the IAF goes for the LCA LIFT separately, in which case they may just order 18-20 single seaters including reserves per squadron. So in that case it would be anywhere between 108 to 120 Tejas Mk2 fighters. 

Additional numbers may be ordered based on how the MRFA and AMCA progresses.


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## SQ8

migflug said:


> 83 MK1A has already been ordered and these 6 squadrons are for MK2.There was a huge uproar on Twitter yesterday when ACM said "IAFs 114 MRFA project progressing well. Numbers for Tejas Mk2 to be decided when first production model comes: CAS" but today morning there is a confirmation for 6 squadrons!!





MirageBlue said:


> 16 single seaters and possibly 4 of the Tejas Mk1 trainers as well. Unless the IAF goes for the LCA LIFT separately, in which case they may just order 18-20 single seaters including reserves per squadron. So in that case it would be anywhere between 108 to 120 Tejas Mk2 fighters.
> 
> Additional numbers may be ordered based on how the MRFA and AMCA progresses.


So that is confusing -

There are currently 2 squadrons of the Mk1s
There is a Mk1A which is 83 - so 4 odd squadrons( and likely some for TACDE)
Then there is Mk2 - 6 so 108
So at the end the Tejas by 2028 or 2030 will number(at current production+induction pace) around 200 odd airframes?

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## kaykay

SQ8 said:


> So that is confusing -
> 
> There are currently 2 squadrons of the Mk1s
> There is a Mk1A which is 83 - so 4 odd squadrons( and likely some for TACDE)
> Then there is Mk2 - 6 so 108
> So at the end the Tejas by 2028 or 2030 will number(at current production+induction pace) around 200 odd airframes?


Yes pretty much that. 123 Tejas mk1/mk1A and similar number for Tejas mk2. Total 12 sqds

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## migflug

SQ8 said:


> So that is confusing -
> 
> There are currently 2 squadrons of the Mk1s
> There is a Mk1A which is 83 - so 4 odd squadrons( and likely some for TACDE)
> Then there is Mk2 - 6 so 108
> So at the end the Tejas by 2028 or 2030 will number(at current production+induction pace) around 200 odd airframes?


Yes, 40 Mark1(16 IOC+ 16FOC+8 Trainers) +83Marks1A (10 Trainer+73 Single Seater) =123 confirmed orders.
Of these 30 Single seaters have been delivered, and 2 are currently in the process of being delivered. The construction of 18 Trainer has commenced now, of which 4 will be delivered this year and a total of 18 by 2024. And then the MK1A(73 Single Seater) production will take place which is to be completed by 2028.
Parallelly the MK2 prototype is to fly by next year. Earlier IAF committed to 201 MK2(in addition to 123) in 2018 but since then it has reduced to 170 and now to 108.

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## Deino

migflug said:


> ..
> Parallelly the MK2 prototype is to fly by next year. Earlier IAF committed to 201 MK2(in addition to 123) in 2018 but since then it has reduced to 170 and now to 108.




Thanks for the summary … by the way, are there any images of the Mk.2 prototype already available?


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Thanks for the summary … by the way, are there any images of the Mk.2 prototype already available?



Unfortunately none.

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> Unfortunately none.




Thanks anyway … so similar to several China news I‘m eagerly expecting, it seems as if I need to tame my impatience.


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## migflug

Deino said:


> Thanks for the summary … by the way, are there any images of the Mk.2 prototype already available?


Sadly hasn't been made yet, maybe next yr or by early 24.

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## Shreyas Karambelkar

A good read on tejas,it is often criticised by shorter range but many of us do not realise that every LCA suffers with such issues.However, the main essense of a LCA is, is to be mass produced at the fraction of the cost and has a better TAT than medium or heavy weight fighters. The link given below analyses many prospects including the range.










Tejas - Not what you think it is. - Alpha Defense


– By Raflanker A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s...




alphadefense.in


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Shreyas Karambelkar said:


> A good read on tejas,it is often criticised by shorter range but many of us do not realise that every LCA suffers with such issues.However, the main essense of a LCA is, is to be mass produced at the fraction of the cost and has a better TAT than medium or heavy weight fighters. The link given below analyses many prospects including the range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tejas - Not what you think it is. - Alpha Defense
> 
> 
> – By Raflanker A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphadefense.in



This is what you got after 40 years. I won't say have some shame because I know can't.


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## Asimzranger



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## Shreyas Karambelkar

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> This is what you got after 40 years. I won't say have some shame because I know can't.
> 
> 
> View attachment 864111


I would just let you thump your chest. 
Wouldn't reply a troll either.


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Asimzranger said:


> View attachment 864113



Just to be fair, Unlike Tejas, Samosa is useful.

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## Primus

Another thread was made on this exact article by alpha defense


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## Shreyas Karambelkar

Huffal said:


> Another thread was made on this exact article by alpha defense


I was unaware of it.Can you please post the link of the thread?


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Shreyas Karambelkar said:


> I was unaware of it.Can you please post the link of the thread?











Tejas - Not what you think it is. - Alpha Defense


– By Raflanker A new storm stirred up yet again on competence of Tejas. Time again,Tejas, a Light Combat aircraft is expected to perform like a medium category fighter. Allegations are made on its payload capacity, range, EW suite, weight and delays. But are these points really tenable? Let’s...




alphadefense.in


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## Primus

Shreyas Karambelkar said:


> I was unaware of it.Can you please post the link of the thread?


Sorry i was wrong, it was a comment on another thread that some other user made. 

Ignore the above

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## Sage

One more story of a doomed project !


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## Suriya

Sage said:


> One more story of a doomed project !


30 LCAs are in service today. In next five years, this will rise 118 as orders are already placed.


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## Shreyas Karambelkar

Sage said:


> One more story of a doomed project !


You've my sympathies.

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## Lava820

India To Replace Mirage 2000 Jets With Tejas MK2; Is LCA A Worthy Successor To Battle-Proven Dassault Fighters?


Tejas Mk2 vs Mirage 2000: When the Jaguar and Mirage2000 jets are to be phased out after ten years, the LCA Mark 2 fighter will replace them.




eurasiantimes.com

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## Lava820

Suriya said:


> 30 LCAs are in service today. In next five years, this will rise 118 as orders are already placed.


BEL will supply critical avionic Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) related to Digital Flight Control Computers, Air Data Computers, Weapon Computers, Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and Head Up Display. They're responsible for the supply and manufacture of 20 types of airborne electronic systems.

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## air marshal

Indian Air Force HAL Tejas Mk.1 - Photo by SalmanFalconsPK - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk


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## air marshal

Indian Air Force HAL Tejas Mk.1 - Photo by SalmanFalconsPK - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk


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## Black Tornado

air marshal said:


> Indian Air Force HAL Tejas Mk.1 - Photo by SalmanFalconsPK - Falcons.PK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> falcons.pk


Dubai airshow?


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## Sage

Shreyas Karambelkar said:


> You've my sympathies.


None needed...give to the HAL in my stead !


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## air marshal

Black Tornado said:


> Dubai airshow?


Yeah!

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## air marshal



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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553998556385529856

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554103378921553920

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554469592915124230

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 from No.45 Squadron with a iDerby-ER BVRAAM. Pic taken by Deb Rana, posted by Sanjay Badri Maharaj.

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## kopotov

The LRDE says "Uttam Mk1 is better than Elta AESA radar. 

And equally capable with the Su30's NIIP N011M". 

Uttam MK2 is way more promising!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555550416213000193

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## VkdIndian

kopotov said:


> And equally capable with the Su30's NIIP N011M".


Isn’t it supposed to be better that it.
AESA vs PESA and also a newer generation?


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## Two banks of the River

VkdIndian said:


> Isn’t it supposed to be better that it.
> AESA vs PESA and also a newer generation?


Bars of Su30MKI is huge in its comparison. Capable of dealing with more than 6 targets simultaneously. It's a really niche hardware. Not easy to replicate it's performance.

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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> Isn’t it supposed to be better that it.
> AESA vs PESA and also a newer generation?



then just imagine an AESA Uttam sized to fit the Su-30MKI's radome. It'll be almost twice the size of the Uttam Mk1 on the Tejas, with a lot more electrical power available as well. It'll be a beast!

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 of No.18 Squadron with 3 drop tanks..ferry configuration..love the DASH HMDS. Will be pretty deadly given it's mated to Python V, R-73E and soon, ASRAAM.

The ferry range is well in excess of 2000 km, as confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> Tejas Mk1 of No.18 Squadron with 3 drop tanks..ferry configuration..love the DASH HMDS. Will be pretty deadly given it's mated to Python V, R-73E and soon, ASRAAM.
> 
> The ferry range is well in excess of 2000 km, as confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur




I really miss these days, the individual unit badges were carried


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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> I really miss these days, the individual unit badges were carried



Absolutely. I miss the squadron badges that were painted on the sides of the noses or on the airframe sides. Added a lot of character to the airplanes and made it a joy to see and also try and aero model them.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas trainer..the baseline for the HAL HLFT-42 LIFT 






Tejas commemorating the 75th year of Indian Independence 






Posted by Grp Cpt HV Thakur, Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter

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## MirageBlue

Old but superb video on all the technologies and capabilities that were developed in India during and for the LCA program. It is the setting up of capabilities that are the reason why Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA, etc. are even possible.

And all the IAF keeps shouting is ToT ToT for the MRFA which is nothing more than manuals on how to assemble or repair a fighter. Nobody will teach you all the things that Indian aerospace industry had to learn during the LCA program. It takes funding, hard work and decades to gain these skills working on a program hands on from the ground up.


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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561021944702840832

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## Deino

Two banks of the River said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561021944702840832




But isn‘t this a delay for both again?


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## Raj-Hindustani

Deino said:


> But isn‘t this a delay for both again?


No, it was only scheduled before as well

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## Two banks of the River

Deino said:


> But isn‘t this a delay for both again?


For the Tejas MK2, I believe it's a slip of a couple of months. So not exactly an issue. 

For AMCA, it's a delay. 12-15 months is not a slip. Its a substantial delay.

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## Deino

Two banks of the River said:


> For the Tejas MK2, I believe it's a slip of a couple of months. So not exactly an issue.
> 
> For AMCA, it's a delay. 12-15 months is not a slip. Its a substantial delay.



Thanks 🙏


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## VkdIndian

Two banks of the River said:


> For the Tejas MK2, I believe it's a slip of a couple of months. So not exactly an issue.


Couple of months can be made up with a push later. Hopefully it doesn’t become more than a slip.


Two banks of the River said:


> For AMCA, it's a delay. 12-15 months is not a slip. Its a substantial delay.


Any reason for this? Was it delay in sanctioning the project or something else?


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## Two banks of the River

VkdIndian said:


> Couple of months can be made up with a push later. Hopefully it doesn’t become more than a slip.
> 
> Any reason for this? Was it delay in sanctioning the project or something else?


Def expo is planned this oct. Maybe some new info will come up then.

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## MirageBlue

HAL set to edge out SoKo for LCA deal with Malaysia


Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter.

While I would advise taking it for what it's worth, the article reports that HAL is nearing selection of the Tejas based LIFT for the RMAF's LCA competition. It's primary competitor is KAI's FA-50, but the Tejas is far more sophisticated and is already integrated with iDerby-ER and Astra Mk1 BVRAAMs with Astra Mk2 and Mk3 integrations coming up in the next few years, whereas the FA-50 is WVR only. FA-50's AMRAAM integration is being talked about, but not yet done.

Also the Tejas Mk1A features AESA radar whereas the FA-50 still isn't integrated with one. I would expect a KF-21 Boramae derivative to eventually find it's way onto the FA-50 in the next few years. The Tejas LIFT will be offered with India's Uttam AESA radar. EW suite will also be Indian given RMAF doesn't want Israeli items.

HAL is also offering support for the RMAF's Su-30MKM fleet for which spares are definitely going to be an issue given the Russo-Ukrainian war. In addition, HAL is also offering to upgrade RMAF's Hawks, given that HAL built so many Hawks for the IAF and IN.

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## MirageBlue

Fabulous CGI of the Tejas Mk2 by Kuntal Biswas. Such a sexy beast this Tejas Mk2 is!

DelhiDefenceReview has reported that the first Tejas Mk2 prototype will be rolled out in the first quarter of 2023. First flight will be in early 2024. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562387349652221954

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## migflug

MirageBlue said:


> Fabulous CGI of the Tejas Mk2 by Kuntal Biswas. Such a sexy beast this Tejas Mk2 is!
> 
> DelhiDefenceReview has reported that the first Tejas Mk2 prototype will be rolled out in the first quarter of 2023. First flight will be in early 2024.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562387349652221954


More and more delays. It was supposed to come out in Aug'22, then new time was supposedly Dec'22 and now its first quater of 23


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## VkdIndian

HAL/DRDO have mastered the art of shifting the timelines.
That is the only job that they have done flawlessly for so many decades.

Hoping that they extend this expertise to actual production of stuff.

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## Ali_Baba

VkdIndian said:


> HAL/DRDO have mastered the art of shifting the timelines.
> That is the only job that they have done flawlessly for so many decades.
> 
> Hoping that they extend this expertise to actual production of stuff.



I think "HAL/DRDO have mastered the art of CGI videos and pictures and vapourware!!!!"


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## VkdIndian

Ali_Baba said:


> I think "HAL/DRDO have mastered the art of CGI videos and pictures and vapourware!!!!"


They seem to be pulling their act together now. Fingers crossed.


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## MirageBlue

Su-30MKI aerobatics, refueling a Jaguar DARIN3, Rafale and Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter..

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## MirageBlue

For those complaining about the Tejas Mk2 prototype missing the earlier stated deadline for roll-out this August, keep in mind, the GoI hadn't even released the funds it was supposed to for the development!







Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter in the picture

Tejas Mk2 fighter to cabinet sanction this week



> This week, a case is scheduled to be placed before the Union Cabinet, for the grant of financial sanction and permission to proceed with the design and development of the Tejas Mark 2 – a more capable version of the indigenous Tejas Mark 1 light combat aircraft (LCA).
> 
> “The Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, will accord clearance this week for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to go ahead with the design, development, testing and certification of the Tejas Mark 2 fighter,” sources in the Ministry of Defence told _Business Standard_.
> 
> The new Tejas Mark 2 fighter is expected to be rolled out in a two-year timeframe, and its first flight will take another one year, say ADA officials. Then flight-testing and certification is expected to take another five years. That means the Tejas Mark 2 will only become operationally available around 2030.



The article is inaccurate in a way, since he doesn't seem to be aware that the Tejas Mk2 prototype is in fabrication, using funds left over from the Tejas Mk1 Full Scale Engg Dev Phase 3. 

Nevertheless, if you don't have funds sanctioned, how can people blame HAL, ADA and DRDO for it? The money should've been released at least 2 years ago.

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## Deino

MirageBlue said:


> For those complaining about the Tejas Mk2 prototype missing the earlier stated deadline for roll-out this August, keep in mind, the GoI hadn't even released the funds it was supposed to for the development!
> .....




But that's exactly the point!  ... on the one side claiming, announcing and more and then not being able to do the homeworks correctly!


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## migflug

6 squadrons Tejas MK2 confirmed by IAF. But MRFA still on top of the stack


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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565176101810601985

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565184394423177216
Confirmed. the GoI's Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by the PM Modi has cleared the sanction for the Tejas Mk2 program at a cost of Rs 10,000 crores (~USD 1.5 billion). That includes the development of prototypes, flight testing, etc.

Roll-out in 2023,
First flight is to be in 2024.
Development is to be completed by 2027 as per the ADA Chief Dr Girish Deodhare.

The bigger CCS clearance for the AMCA is supposed to follow through in the next few months. That'll be a LOT more expensive.

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564664262932381696


> Open source HAL documents confirm that the two airframes allocated as 'prototypes' of the LCA MK1A are the: •SP-25 (LA-5021) •LSP-08 (KH-2018)
> 
> LSP-08 during A2A refueling trials

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful shot of a Tejas trainer zooming away after takeoff

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565373870651342848

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## lightoftruth

MirageBlue said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565184394423177216
> Confirmed. the GoI's Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by the PM Modi has cleared the sanction for the Tejas Mk2 program at a cost of Rs 10,000 crores (~USD 1.5 billion). That includes the development of prototypes, flight testing, etc.
> 
> Roll-out in 2023,
> First flight is to be in 2024.
> Development is to be completed by 2027 as per the ADA Chief Dr Girish Deodhare.
> 
> The bigger CCS clearance for the AMCA is supposed to follow through in the next few months. That'll be a LOT more expensive.


Seems to be delayed by few months ,was expecting first flight in 2023.


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## Raj-Hindustani

lightoftruth said:


> Seems to be delayed by few months ,was expecting first flight in 2023.



No, it was only 2024.... I hope - no delay further on it.

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## MirageBlue

Two banks of the River said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565373870651342848



This is apparently quite serious. the External Affairs Minister Jaishankar in his address mentioned that the Argentinians have expressed interest in the Tejas and talks are going on.

India acknowledges Argentina's interest in Tejas fighter aircraft



> India on Friday acknowledged Argentina's interest in the made-in-India Tejas fighter aircraft for the Argentine Air Force.
> 
> The talks on Tejas featured during External Affairs Minister (EAM) S Jaishankar's two-day official visit to Argentina.
> 
> During his meeting with Argentina Foreign Minister Santiago Cafiero, EAM Jaishankar reviewed the ongoing cooperation in the strategic sectors of Defence, Nuclear Energy and Space.
> 
> Jaishankar and Foriegn Minister Cafiero jointly presided over a Joint Commission Meeting (JCM) between the two countries. During the visit, Jaishankar also called on Argentine President Dr Alberto Fernandez.
> 
> "India and Argentina reviewed their ongoing cooperation in the strategic sectors of Defence, Nuclear Energy and Space and reiterated their commitment to work together for mutual benefit," the Joint statement said.Both said agreed to enhance cooperation in the Defence sector within the framework of the MOU on Defence Cooperation signed in 2019.
> 
> The two sides also explored expanding the scope of their partnership through, inter-alia, and the conclusion of further MOUs/Agreements.
> 
> "EAM, acknowledging Argentine interest in the Made in India TEJAS fighter aircrafts for Argentine Air Force, highlighted the importance of the proposal in enhancing the strategic quotient of the bilateral relationship," the statement added.
> 
> Both sides agreed to promote the exchange of visits between Armed Forces, defence training and collaboration for joint production of defence-related equipment.
> 
> The talks on fighter aircraft come as a number of countries including Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have shown interest in the Made in India jet. India is indigenous aircraft in the defence market which has caught the eye of several nations for superior flying ability, maneuverability, and ease of handling.
> 
> The Indian Air Force had recently equipped the Tejas with the French-origin Hammer air-to-ground stand-off missile along with the indigenous Astra indigenous air-to-air missiles.
> 
> Indian armed forces have extensively utilised the delegated financial powers granted to them in different phases by the government to equip themselves with the necessary weaponry to handle any conflict or aggression by enemies on both sides.
> 
> The Indian Air Force is strongly supporting the indigenous LCA Tejas fighter aircraft programme by adding more and more capabilities to the aircraft.
> 
> The IAF has already operationalised two of its squadrons in the initial operational clearance and final operational clearance versions while a contract has been signed for the 83 Mark1As set to be delivered a couple of years from now.
> 
> The IAF has also its eyes set on the LCA Mark 2 and the AMCA being developed by the DRDO for it.

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## Skull and Bones

MirageBlue said:


> This is apparently quite serious. the External Affairs Minister Jaishankar in his address mentioned that the Argentinians have expressed interest in the Tejas and talks are going on.
> 
> India acknowledges Argentina's interest in Tejas fighter aircraft


In the joint statement, he addressed Falkland as Malvinas, that points to a shift in the tone.


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## MirageBlue

Skull and Bones said:


> In the joint statement, he addressed Falkland as Malvinas, that points to a shift in the tone.



it might be..they're also referring to Argentina as a Strategic Partner, so clearly ties are on the upswing.


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## MirageBlue

More details on the HAL offer of the Tejas Mk1A and Tejas trainer to Argentina

link






> State owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) during its recent visit to Argentina has offered indigenous Light Combat Aircraft `Tejas’ Mark IA and 2 seater trainers.
> 
> Sources have confirmed to Financial Express Online: “Argentina will be looking to export from India two variants of the LCA Tejas. First would be its two-seater operational conversion trainer aircraft, akin to what might be with the Indian Air Force (IAF). The second would be the export variant, the LCA Tejas Mark 1A.”
> 
> HAL in Argentina
> During meetings in Buenos Aires, the executives from HAL met with the Argentinean Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Julio Guardia, on August 31, 2022. Francisco Cafiero, Argentinean Secretary of International Affairs and Daniela Castro, Secretary of Defence Production, Ministry of Defence, also held talks with the HAL delegation the same day. On September 1, HAL met with General Guillermo Pereda, Chief of General Staff, Argentine Armed Forces. A meeting followed this up with Brigadier Xavier Julian Issac, the Chief of General Staff, Argentine Air Force. On September 2, the HAL officials also had discussions with Mirta Iriondo, the President of Fábrica Argentina de Aviones, the foremost aircraft manufacturer in that country.
> 
> What is Argentina looking for?
> Argentina has been scouting globally for fighter jets to replace its aging Air Force Fleet for a while. Among the possible winners have been the Chinese JF-17, the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the South Korean FA-50 and the Lockheed Martin’s F-16s. In the past month, between India and Argentina there have been several rounds of visits and meetings. Financial Express Online has reported earlier that external affairs minister Dr S Jaishankar was in Argentina as part of his three nation visit to the region. Light Combat Aircraft was discussed during his meetings with his counterpart and other senior officials. Recently, along with the Indian Ambassador to Argentina Dinesh Bhatia, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) executives met with the Argentine Chief of Staff, Argentinian Air Force and other key stakeholders.
> 
> Partners, not providers: India’s defence diplomacy at its best
> With the Malaysian deal expected to be closed soon, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has set itself apart from others to accommodate the countries. For Malaysia, HAL is set to provide services for their Russian fleets in addition to the LCA Tejas.
> For Argentina, the company is open to accommodating the demands of their Air Force. The most challenging task had been replacing all UK-origin components in the LCA Tejas. “It is primarily due to the long-standing dispute of the Falkland Islands between the two,” explained a senior diplomat.
> However, it is also a practical ask because HAL cannot go ahead with the sale without a green light from its global providers, including those in the UK. Based on the information in the public domain, in the past decade, Argentina’s efforts to purchase aircraft, including the Saab Gripen from Sweden and later the FA-50 trainer/light fighter from South Korea could not materialize. this was Due to the pressure from the government of Britain.
> 
> Argentine interest in HAL has been building positively over time. Reportedly, in March 2022, Argentine Brigadier General D Xavier Julian Issac, Chief of Staff, Argentinian Air Force, visited India along with a pilot. They clocked over 30 minutes in the LCA Tejas trainer variant at a HAL facility and were impressed by the indigenous fighter.
> “A similar exercise was conducted by the Chinese, who flew their JF-17 aircraft to Argentina, where the Argentinean Air Force spent a month with the same. In 2021, there were reports of Argentina down selecting the Chinese offering. However, later on, any such development was denied by the officials. Apparently, the Argentine response was also positive for the JF-17, but the US was able to talk them out of considering the Chinese aircraft,” said an official who wished to remain anonymous.
> 
> How LCA Tejas stacks against competition?
> Reports have indicated that the LCA Tejas will cost Argentina in the ballpark of USD 42 million per aircraft. The South Korean FA-50 would be several million less. However, FA-50, which the Argentine Air Force has already, comes without missiles, adding to the costs after the fact.
> 
> ...
> 
> However, the F-16 sale to Argentina has been marred by London’s predicament over the Falkland Islands issue. Washington might push for second-hand F-16s to be sold to Argentina to check Beijing’s foothold in its backyard.”
> 
> ....
> 
> After its Mirage fighters left, it chose the Israeli Kfir Block 60s to revive its supersonic fighter capability. However, this deal fell through when the US refused to grant the export license for the engine.
> ..


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## Two banks of the River

MirageBlue said:


> More details on the HAL offer of the Tejas Mk1A and Tejas trainer to Argentina
> 
> link




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568815115524542464
Tejas is cheaper than FA50 and only slightly more costly than JF17. If HAL-MoD works together, we can get multiple deals.


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## CSAW

Can someone share LCA pictures integrated with 
-Hammer
-iDerby
-Astra BVR


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## MirageBlue

CSAW said:


> View attachment 877892
> 
> 
> Can someone share LCA pictures integrated with
> -Hammer
> -iDerby
> -Astra BVR



No images with the Hammer as yet. AFAIK, the integration is in progress and no test drops have been conducted yet. 

Astra Mk1 BVRAAM integration on a Tejas Mk1 can be seen in the image below. No carriage, drop or flight trials pictures as yet. Not sure if they've been conducted or not either.






There are images of the Tejas firing the iDerby BVRAAM and Python V

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## MirageBlue



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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572940106562170881

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572940625817014273

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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574241709818511360

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## MirageBlue

IAF operations from Sulur AFS in Coimbatore, TN, where the 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons (No.45 Squadron 'Flying Daggers' and No.18 'Flying Bullets' ) are based.

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## MirageBlue

Good footage of the No.18 and No.45 Squadron's home base at AFS Sulur. The program has now delivered a very good light fighter that is the baseline for the Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 which will be the backbone of the IAF in the next 3 decades, forming over 12 squadrons. That isn't even including the AMCA or TEDBF, which wouldn't be possible without the Tejas program.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1s from No.18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets' participating in their first ever International Exercise, Exercise Garuda with French Air Force

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## Chandragupt Maurya

I can’t believe DRDO has been able to fit 992 TR module in UTTAM MK2 Radar initially the plan was to install UTTAM MK1 in TEJAS MK1a but now they’ve changed it MK2 
Imagine how many TR modules the upscaled UTTAM for Super Sukhoi will have


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## VkdIndian

Any news on what is happening with MKI A? All quite on that front and that worries me a little.


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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1s from No.18 Squadron participating in the Exercise Garuda with French Air Force Rafales

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## MirageBlue

Looks like the first image of an Astra Mk1 BVRAAM on board a Tejas Mk1 fighter...but could be just a CG render..can't say for sure as yet.

pic posted on Twitter by Grp Cpt HVT. Image credit - Praneeth Franklin

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## Deino

Any news on the Mk.2??


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## Two banks of the River

Deino said:


> Any news on the Mk.2??


Aero India 2023 maybe.

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## VkdIndian

Two banks of the River said:


> Aero India 2023 maybe.


Any possibility of a full scale MK2? Like Turkish TFX has come up with?

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## MirageBlue

VkdIndian said:


> Any possibility of a full scale MK2? Like Turkish TFX has come up with?



Unlikely. Anyway, they have a deadline now, given that the CCS approved full scale development and funding has been provided. 15 months from the CCS approval is the deadline for prototype rollout, so it's gonna be December 2023.

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 patrol formation..posted on Twitter by Grp Cpt HVT..pic courtesy Neel @neel385






Stunning!

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## MirageBlue

Just a beautiful pic of Naval LCA NP-1 and NP-2

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 from No.45 Squadron, with a Jaguar DARIN 3 behind..

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## MirageBlue

Argentina is going to send a commission to India, possibly in mid-January 2023, to evaluate the offer for Tejas Mk1A fighters. 

link to Zona Militar article

The commission will most likely include pilots and technicians from the FAA, as well as technocrats and officials from the Argentine MoD. They will go over the Tejas facilities, including the simulators, the assembly lines, etc. and conduct a deep dive into the capabilities that the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A prototypes have to offer. HAL has promised to replace all British components including the quartz radome, fuel probe and ejection seat.

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## SQ8

MirageBlue said:


> Argentina is going to send a commission to India, possibly in mid-January 2023, to evaluate the offer for Tejas Mk1A fighters.
> 
> link to Zona Militar article
> 
> The commission will most likely include pilots and technicians from the FAA, as well as technocrats and officials from the Argentine MoD. They will go over the Tejas facilities, including the simulators, the assembly lines, etc. and conduct a deep dive into the capabilities that the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A prototypes have to offer. HAL has promised to replace all British components including the quartz radome, fuel probe and ejection seat.


Wont matter - their new PM is killing all contracts. Best option is to finance it all the way for them.


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## Skull and Bones

SQ8 said:


> Wont matter - their new PM is killing all contracts. Best option is to finance it all the way for them.



Argentina is a basket case of mismanagement of economy. Maybe some alternate method of payment can be reached.


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## MirageBlue

SQ8 said:


> Wont matter - their new PM is killing all contracts. Best option is to finance it all the way for them.



It does matter because the Argentines have so far not yet done a deep dive into the technical capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A on offer. There have been visits, but this will be more important in terms of the data that will be gathered.

Whether or not a deal materializes is a different matter that India doesn't have a say in, thanks to Argentina's finances. But it does make sense to provide all the technical data and allow the Argentines to have the best and most accurate data available to make their own choice, if and when such a time comes.

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## MirageBlue

As I mentioned in my previous post, the Argentine Air Force intends to go ahead and do all the ground work for the selection of the future fighter, including the financing aspects. That will then be put forth to the government for them to then make a decision whenever they see fit.

link to Zona Militar article


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## SQ8

Skull and Bones said:


> Argentina is a basket case of mismanagement of economy. Maybe some alternate method of payment can be reached.



They had ample opportunities to procure additional aircraft but it seems they are focused on settling their economy first. Their A-4ARs will have to soldier on more.


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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610113553276743680

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1s from No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610601728642265089

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## MirageBlue

Tejas Mk1 IOC variant from No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron. Image credits Angad Singh






DASH HMDS visible here

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## air marshal



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