# Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM



## Quwa

By Bilal Khan

Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.
By Bilal Khan

As with the Yak-130 story, there are reports floating around claiming that Pakistan may be interested in the Sukhoi Su-35, Russia’s current 4+/4.5 generation fighter. The short of my point is that it is very unlikely that Pakistan will pick up the Su-35. At the same time however, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) not acquiring the Su-35 does not necessarily mean that Pakistan will not acquire other high-value systems from Russia. Yes, Russian-Pakistani defence relations are at an all-time high, especially with Moscow’s willingness to sell Pakistan RD-93 turbofans and Mi-35 assault helicopters, but it is important to manage expectations.

It is no secret that Pakistan’s purchase of the Mi-35 was seen as a major milestone for Pakistani-Russian commercial defence ties, especially since the Mi-35 (despite the Pakistan Army’s requirement for using it as part of its counter-insurgency efforts) is at heart an ‘offensive’ system. Perhaps more significant was Russia’s willingness to sell the RD-93 turbofan, which powers the JF-17, an increasingly vital pillar of Pakistan’s defensive and offensive strategies against external powers. There really is no room for Russia to claim that its arms-transfers to Pakistan are innocuous to India. Thus, if the PAF was genuinely interested and able to purchase it, then I am sure the Russians would sell the Su-35 to the PAF.

But herein lies the problem, the PAF is *not *interested in the Su-35. Yes, there have been some thoughtful calls on the part of many enthusiasts and even experts for the PAF (or even Pakistan Navy!) to buy the Su-35, or at least some kind of Flanker (e.g. the Chinese J-11B/D). The rationale stems in part from the fact that the Su-35 is a formidable long-range fighter with considerable payload. For long-range strike and maritime patrol operations, a fighter of the Flanker’s nature would, without doubt, be a valuable asset. Even the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI presents a real and serious problem for the PAF, and even with the advances coming up with JF-17 and the induction of the Block-52+/MLU, the Flanker is a major challenge.

At the same time however, the Su-35 has its drawbacks, and those drawbacks will be of particular concern to the PAF. The Flanker-series has shown itself to be a maintenance challenge, and even on a good day, a fighter as large and powerful as the Su-35 would require considerable resources in servicing and flight. As far as the PAF is concerned, the Su-35 would be a mismatch that could end up costing the PAF more than actually benefitting it. Do not construe this point for suggesting that the PAF does not need fighters with additional range and payload (compared to the JF-17), it does, but this fighter needs to be feasible enough to operate. What would be the point of possessing such a high-value asset if it cannot be flown regularly enough due to mounting maintenance and operational costs? And let us assume the PAF can regularly fly Su-35s, what about the opportunity costs of spending that extra money?

As far as I am concerned, talk about the PAF looking into the Su-35 is a non-starter. In fact, at this stage anyways, the PAF is probably looking into the Shenyang J-31 as the nucleus of a possible long-range flight element. In essence, the J-31 probably sit in the comfortable middle between the Su-35 and JF-17 in terms of improving upon the latter’s range and payload, but avoiding the former’s maintenance overhead. Yes, this is not happening any time soon, but let us be frank, the PAF is not in a position to immediately induct such platforms anyways. Pakistan’s general economic woes and internal inefficiencies aside, the country spent nearly $2 billion U.S on its recent campaign in Waziristan. It is difficult to expect to see the induction of an entirely new fighter type this soon.

With all that said, there is still significant room for growth in Pakistan’s relations with Russia. While the PAF is unlikely to acquire the Su-35 or Yak-130, there might be a chance to see it pursue Russian surface-to-air (SAM) missiles such as the S-300. The PAF has had a longstanding requirement for long-range SAMs and has made some attempts over the past decade or so to acquire this capability. If there were a chance for a truly landmark deal between Russia and Pakistan, then the S-300 would be it, though there is nothing at this stage to suggest that this is happening, unfortunately. Besides that, we can comfortably expect additional Mi-35, Mi-171 and perhaps even RD-93MA for use on the JF-17.

Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.

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## Sliver

All fighter aircraft in the same class as SU-35 would require extensive maintenance. Pakistan would obviously want to go the China way but thats probably more to do with your closeness (and the fact that you would have to pay the Russians where as the Chinese can do a 'soft loan') than with the maintenance cost.

Pakistan can do well with JF-17s for now with their evolutions taking place more rapidly. You could probably wait it out for the Chinese versions of the heavier aircraft with India currently focussing on itself right now. not to mention that China certainly has got your back for now.

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## RazorMC

It was obvious from the start that Su-35 will not be seen in PAF.

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## Indus Falcon

Well three things immediately come to mind.

1) SU30 vs SU35 - Maintenance wise. Still the same? No changes in the way it was built?

2) *IF* PAF buys it, it won't be the standard one being offered. There will be a degree of customization.

3) What kind of ToT would we get. Or would it be limited to MRO facilities only?

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## al_asad_al_mulk

i don't know fanboys are exciting about that but no Pakistan will not induct a single russian fighter take my words

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## Indus Falcon

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> i don't know fanboys are exciting about that but no Pakistan will not induct a single russian fighter take my words


I agree with you. IF a new platform is to be inducted, it will be Chinese, not Russian.

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## Goenitz

Rafale is also maintenance maniac \.nightmere @Sliver


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## Blue Marlin

a part from the j31 is is almost guaranteed to be inducted in the future and the possibly j10, what else is there for you guys? i was thinking the eft but thats way to expensive. any thoughts?


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## Indus Falcon

blue marlin said:


> a part from the j31 is is almost guaranteed to be inducted in the future and the possibly j10, what else is there for you guys? i was thinking the eft but thats way to expensive. any thoughts?


Have EFT's structural flaws been worked out?

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## Abingdonboy

Goenitz said:


> Rafale is also maintenance maniac \.nightmere @Sliver


Nonsense, it has some of the highest availability rates of any twin engined fighter.

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## Indus Falcon

Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense, it has some of the highest availability rates of any twin engined fighter.


But lower than the M2K5

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## al_asad_al_mulk

Indus Falcon said:


> I agree with you. IF a new platform is to be inducted, it will be Chinese, not Russian.


sure...

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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> Have EFT's structural flaws been worked out?


there were problems with the composite canards, and yes they have been rectified.


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## Indus Falcon

blue marlin said:


> there were problems with the composite canards, and yes they have been rectified.



Canards? What about the fuselage?

BERLIN --- Industry has established, in the context of quality controls. that a manufacturing defect has caused a large number of small holes in the rear fuselage of Eurofighter aircraft 

The reasons for this are inadequate finishing by the manufacturer BAE Systems. 

Since the impact of these problems on the life of the airframe cannot be predicted, a reduction of flight hours recommended by industry was introduced as an additional safety measure. With immediate effect, the service life of the Eurofighter aircraft has been halved, from 3,000 flight hours to 1,500 flight hours. 

The manufacturing defect described has, according to industry, no impact on the current flight safety and operational capability of the Eurofighter weapon system. Training and deployment operations continue to be assured. 

To avoid any disadvantages and to protect the rights of the Ministry of Defense as a result of this under-performance, acceptance of further aircraft was suspended pending resolution of the commercial aspects of this issue. 


_(*EDITOR’S NOTE: * A German air force spokesman told Defense-Aerospace.com Oct. 1 that the problem is caused by splinters that could eventually cause cracks in the airframe. 
However, as German Eurofighters will not reach the reduced 1,500-hour lifetime until 2018, the Ministry of Defence is not unduly worried sine the aircraft remain airworthy. 
The Eurofighter’s design service life is 6,000 flight hours, and is due to be gradually extended beyond the previous 3,000-hour limit as flight data accumulates. 
However, it has suspended all Eurofighter deliveries, and will not resume them until the problem is fully investigated and fixed, the spokesman said. 
He added the problem had come to light at the end of last week, when the air force was notified by letter by the manufacturer, Airbus Defence and Space. 
Neither BAE Systems nor Eurofighter GmbH had responded to our request for comment by 12:00 GMT today.)_
Eurofighter: Air Force Flight Operations Currently Not Affected By Flight Hours Reduction

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## !eon

They are probably not buying SU-35, but a long range fighter/bomber is indeed need of PAF.
JF 17 is not A to Z. Every program has it's limits. Even somewhere in future, at the hight of expectations, we can assume JF 17 equal to Rafale, but it will still not be a long range and load carrying bird.
J-31 has still a long way of developments and there is huge gap between PAF and IAF. This is not 1965! Don't expect any dogfights now. Machine intelligence has taken over pilot skills.
About S-300, why not HQ-9 ? Isn't it equally capable ? And PAK can have TOT from China which might not be the case with Russian deal.

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## Viper0011.

Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense, it has some of the highest availability rates of any twin engined fighter.



In terms of what !!! Care to list out cost per hour flight time? That's usually outside of the purchase and infrastructure cost!



Mark Sien said:


> As with the Yak-130 story, there are reports floating around claiming that Pakistan may be interested in the Sukhoi Su-35, Russia’s current 4+/4.5 generation fighter. The short of my point is that it is very unlikely that Pakistan will pick up the Su-35..



I, 200% agree. Why buy such expensive jets when the Chinese will give you something very similar for 40% less and with infrastructure setup, maintenance and some TOT too??

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## Sliver

Goenitz said:


> Rafale is also maintenance maniac \.nightmere @Sliver



compared to which platform? It is certainly a maintenance heavy fighter compared to a light craft, but i would think it would be on par with any other form the same class.



!eon said:


> They are probably not buying SU-35, but a long range fighter/bomber is indeed need of PAF.
> JF 17 is not A to Z. Every program has it's limits. *Even somewhere in future, at the hight of expectations, we can assume JF 17 equal to Rafale*, but it will still not be a long range and load carrying bird.
> J-31 has still a long way of developments and there is huge gap between PAF and IAF. This is not 1965!
> About S-300, why not HQ-9 ? Isn't it equally capable ? And PAK can have TOT from China which might not be the case with Russian deal.



most certainly not. There is a world of difference between the two. An 8th generation Honda cannot be same to a 4th generation merc.


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## !eon

Sliver said:


> most certainly not. There is a world of difference between the two. An 8th generation Honda cannot be same to a 4th generation merc.



That's why I have written 'at hight of expectations' for JF-17 fan boys.
Okay you have learned, and learned very good from this program, but for god's sake man, keep moving on.

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## princefaisal

The best solution would be to induct 60 J-10C with TOT. Its maintenance would definitely be less than twin engine aircrafts. And then induct J-31 from year 2025 onwards.

For longe range SAMs, Chinese HQ-9 and HQ-16 with phased array radars are best suited and Pakistan can get more advanced versions HQ-19 or HQ-26 in future. For medium range, Russian Pantsyr and S-350 seems effective.


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## Pakistanisage

Sir Bilal makes some very Powerful and Enlightening points regarding the future direction of Pakistan Air Force and its acquisition of next generation of aircraft. J-31 makes a lot of sense considering that it also uses the Russian Klimov RD-93 engine, which is already being used on JF-17 Thunder.


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## VelocuR

Su-35 is first step that was great gestures offering from Russia, it is up to Pakistan's requirements.

Thank you Russia. Hope something more than that.


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## Peace seeker

hope Pakistan air defense grow up fast.......


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## knight11

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> i don't know fanboys are exciting about that but no Pakistan will not induct a single russian fighter take my words


There is a pakistani member named zarwan who claims the opposite with reference to his so called SOURCE.



!eon said:


> They are probably not buying SU-35, but a long range fighter/bomber is indeed need of PAF.
> JF 17 is not A to Z. Every program has it's limits. Even somewhere in future, at the hight of expectations, we can assume JF 17 equal to Rafale, but it will still not be a long range and load carrying bird.
> J-31 has still a long way of developments and there is huge gap between PAF and IAF. This is not 1965! Don't expect any dogfights now. Machine intelligence has taken over pilot skills.
> About S-300, why not HQ-9 ? Isn't it equally capable ? And PAK can have TOT from China which might not be the case with Russian deal.


JF-17 in the present state is not close to Rafale and why do you need long range load carrying bird if for the offensive attack against IAF and SAM network in India you need numbers also.

S300 and HQ-9 (chinese copy of S300) is not a good for Indo-Pak conditions. It was design for destroying the U.S long range, stealth, strandoff attack planes. Both the systems are very expensive and even Indian army and IAF is not interested in them. For IAF and Indian army BARAK-ng(land version)and akash is better option. For PAF Spada 2000 is a good SAM but they need that in more quantity linked with c4 network


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## Thəorətic Muslim

Add to the analysis the selective language of the sale of the Mi-35s: "Would be provided at the request of the Anti-Narcotic Forces".


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## Areesh

I always had this opinion. PAF would never go for SU 35 for a lot of reasons.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Areesh said:


> I always had this opinion. PAF would never go for SU 35 for a lot of reasons.


They are already offering to china.


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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> Canards? What about the fuselage?
> 
> BERLIN --- Industry has established, in the context of quality controls. that a manufacturing defect has caused a large number of small holes in the rear fuselage of Eurofighter aircraft
> 
> The reasons for this are inadequate finishing by the manufacturer BAE Systems.
> 
> Since the impact of these problems on the life of the airframe cannot be predicted, a reduction of flight hours recommended by industry was introduced as an additional safety measure. With immediate effect, the service life of the Eurofighter aircraft has been halved, from 3,000 flight hours to 1,500 flight hours.
> 
> The manufacturing defect described has, according to industry, no impact on the current flight safety and operational capability of the Eurofighter weapon system. Training and deployment operations continue to be assured.
> 
> To avoid any disadvantages and to protect the rights of the Ministry of Defense as a result of this under-performance, acceptance of further aircraft was suspended pending resolution of the commercial aspects of this issue.
> 
> 
> _(*EDITOR’S NOTE: * A German air force spokesman told Defense-Aerospace.com Oct. 1 that the problem is caused by splinters that could eventually cause cracks in the airframe.
> However, as German Eurofighters will not reach the reduced 1,500-hour lifetime until 2018, the Ministry of Defence is not unduly worried sine the aircraft remain airworthy.
> The Eurofighter’s design service life is 6,000 flight hours, and is due to be gradually extended beyond the previous 3,000-hour limit as flight data accumulates.
> However, it has suspended all Eurofighter deliveries, and will not resume them until the problem is fully investigated and fixed, the spokesman said.
> He added the problem had come to light at the end of last week, when the air force was notified by letter by the manufacturer, Airbus Defence and Space.
> Neither BAE Systems nor Eurofighter GmbH had responded to our request for comment by 12:00 GMT today.)_
> Eurofighter: Air Force Flight Operations Currently Not Affected By Flight Hours Reduction


a reduction in 50% life span is merely a minor issue those problems are being addressed in the trance 3 variant and the life span will be doubled from 3000 hours to 6000 hours.


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## RazorMC

Peaceful Civilian said:


> They are already offering to china.


China's geographic size requires a long-range air superiority fighter and Russia needs the cash. Negotiations had been ongoing for a couple of years for 24 units, but the Russians wanted China to buy atleast 48.

Due to recent changes in Russia's foreign policy and cash issues, they settled on 24 despite knowing China might reverse-engineer them.

Plus, China can pay upfront for the birds, can't say the same for Pakistan right now.



Pakistanisage said:


> Sir Bilal makes some very Powerful and Enlightening points regarding the future direction of Pakistan Air Force and its acquisition of next generation of aircraft. J-31 makes a lot of sense considering that it also uses the Russian Klimov RD-93 engine, which is already being used on JF-17 Thunder.


The engine costs will go down, affecting both aircraft. It would seem a win-win for both China and Pakistan. But China is looking to improve its own engines to use them on J-31 (WS-13).


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## Muhammad Omar

Pakistan will not Get Su-35 For sure they will get J-10 and J-11 and in Future J-31 most probably....


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## Super Falcon

Chinese J 20 and J 31 are still decade we have to wait even J 10 which we ordered is almost took decade to operate and when it is operation we took stupid decision 

What gurantees we have what we did to J 10 we dont do J 20 when it is available

PAF is at mercy of IAF wih limited range of SAMs it operates is a headache in itself

Most of our F 16 are 3 decades old 

Only 24 new F 16 and old 50 f 16 along with 70 odd Jf 17 all are multi role single engine jets

Cant fight massive SU 30 fleet along with Rafale mirages mig 29k

All these jets are twin engine and can carry double pay load double the speed and range

Today our skies have threat from massive IAF and now IN also uses Mig 29k jets

Our limited thinking will cost us air war which means we loose land and naval war

When india issued MRCA tender Paf said we wait until what india chooses than we react

But still PAF mentality is blocked by limitations 

Paf needs to fill gap of twin engine jet

Countriez like indonesia dont have maintanance issue of SU 30 

Being a professional force PAF should not think negatively on maintanance look positive how these flankers give you edge in war

If we need to bomb new dehli PAF with current firce cant do it

If syria can operate mig 31 which is also need hell of maintanance what prob paf had

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## Muhammad Omar

Super Falcon said:


> Chinese J 20 and J 31 are still decade we have to wait even J 10 which we ordered is almost took decade to operate and when it is operation we took stupid decision
> 
> What gurantees we have what we did to J 10 we dont do J 20 when it is available
> 
> PAF is at mercy of IAF wih limited range of SAMs it operates is a headache in itself
> 
> Most of our F 16 are 3 decades old
> 
> Only 24 new F 16 and old 50 f 16 along with 70 odd Jf 17 all are multi role single engine jets
> 
> Cant fight massive SU 30 fleet along with Rafale mirages mig 29k
> 
> All these jets are twin engine and can carry double pay load double the speed and range
> 
> Today our skies have threat from massive IAF and now IN also uses Mig 29k jets
> 
> Our limited thinking will cost us air war which means we loose land and naval war
> 
> When india issued MRCA tender Paf said we wait until what india chooses than we react
> 
> But still PAF mentality is blocked by limitations
> 
> Paf needs to fill gap of twin engine jet
> 
> Countriez like indonesia dont have maintanance issue of SU 30
> 
> Being a professional force PAF should not think negatively on maintanance look positive how these flankers give you edge in war
> 
> If we need to bomb new dehli PAF with current firce cant do it
> 
> If syria can operate mig 31 which is also need hell of maintanance what prob paf had



I don't think Chinese will Ever Export J-20 to any Country... They Most Probably only give J-31... J-20 is out of question....


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## Super Falcon

Muhammad Omar said:


> I don't think Chinese will Ever Export J-20 to any Country... They Most Probably only give J-31... J-20 is out of question....


But it is 10 years paf has to wait until we keep our selves as a sitting ducks and we give justification maintanance of SU 35

If we think maintanance than buy ww2 mustang fighter it takes even lower level of maintanance than our F 16


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## Muhammad Omar

Super Falcon said:


> But it is 10 years paf has to wait until we keep our selves as a sitting ducks and we give justification maintanance of SU 35
> 
> If we think maintanance than buy ww2 mustang fighter it takes even lower level of maintanance than our F 16



And till 10 years our 50 F-16 will be 4 decades old... and need to be replaced too....

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## Imran Khan

common lets move to fifth gen now its not the time to waste on 4.5 and money


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## Muhammad Omar

Imran Khan said:


> common lets move to fifth gen now its not the time to waste on 4.5 and money



sir g 5th gen me abhi poooray 10 saal pare hain J-31 k abhi kuch hi prototype aai hain... 

Plus Pakistan kitne 5th Genration le le ga? 70 80 ??

baki ka kya? Srf JF-17??

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## Goenitz

Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense, it has some of the highest availability rates of any twin engined fighter.


 ohh man .. forgot to put question mark... it was a question..



Sliver said:


> compared to which platform? It is certainly a maintenance heavy fighter compared to a light craft, but i would think it would be on par with any other form the same class.


to su 35.. i cna say that (Pakistan) 70s miraj have been overhauled 3 times but f-16 not once (decade older tech though).. so as dassault must have improved but still, is this frech made fighter is durable/reliable/cost friendly (post-purchase) *?*



Imran Khan said:


> common lets move to fifth gen now its not the time to waste on 4.5 and money


 until technology is industrial ready, don't buy or w'd end up like f-35 program.


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## araz

Indus Falcon said:


> Well three things immediately come to mind.
> 
> 1) SU30 vs SU35 - Maintenance wise. Still the same? No changes in the way it was built?
> 
> 2) *IF* PAF buys it, it won't be the standard one being offered. There will be a degree of customization.
> 
> 3) What kind of ToT would we get. Or would it be limited to MRO facilities only?


The AL117 is apparently a much improved engine with more MTBO, FADEC and easier maintenance. However I still agree that it is a bridge too far for the PAF.
CUSTOMIZATION requires work and the red bear at the moment will be unable to fork out millions to customize it to PAFs demands. The additional aspect of this is armaments which PAF will want to use. I dont think the russians will be happy for us to use SD10A /B and PL series.
As to TOT forget it. You wont be able to absorb it as the plane is very complex and it will be too expensive . Plus no one in their right mind will give you TOT when your maximum requirements are not more than 2 squadrons at best. You wont be able to justify having J31 after these so PAF will wait for J31s/equivalent.

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## Tipu7

knight11 said:


> S300 and HQ-9 (chinese copy of S300) is not a good for Indo-Pak conditions. It was design for destroying the U.S long range, stealth, strandoff attack planes. Both the systems are very expensive and even Indian army and IAF is not interested in them. For IAF and Indian army BARAK-ng(land version)and akash is better option.



@Side-Winder


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## al_asad_al_mulk

knight11 said:


> There is a pakistani member named zarwan who claims the opposite with reference to his so called SOURCE.
> 
> 
> JF-17 in the present state is not close to Rafale and why do you need long range load carrying bird if for the offensive attack against IAF and SAM network in India you need numbers also.
> 
> S300 and HQ-9 (chinese copy of S300) is not a good for Indo-Pak conditions. It was design for destroying the U.S long range, stealth, strandoff attack planes. Both the systems are very expensive and even Indian army and IAF is not interested in them. For IAF and Indian army BARAK-ng(land version)and akash is better option. For PAF Spada 2000 is a good SAM but they need that in more quantity linked with c4 network


everybody have right to express what he thinks but reality is that Pakistan does not enjoy good relations with Russia even Pakistan is hesitant to buy helos but it is Russia who provide helos what you can said soft loans or payment after deliveries in installments in years to make India worry / jealous. If Pakistan opted for above type of jet Pakistan would go for Chinese remake of Russian.


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## airmarshal

Su-35 reports came from Russian sources not Pakistan. If Pakistan really wanted it the sources reporting the news would have been Pakistani. 

PAF does not need long range strike and air superiority fighter. The better choice to fill that gap would be a Chinese platform.

However, if we have enough budget, Eurofighter would not be such a bad option.


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## knight11

Super Falcon said:


> Chinese J 20 and J 31 are still decade we have to wait even J 10 which we ordered is almost took decade to operate and when it is operation we took stupid decision
> 
> What gurantees we have what we did to J 10 we dont do J 20 when it is available
> 
> PAF is at mercy of IAF wih limited range of SAMs it operates is a headache in itself
> 
> Most of our F 16 are 3 decades old
> 
> Only 24 new F 16 and old 50 f 16 along with 70 odd Jf 17 all are multi role single engine jets
> 
> Cant fight massive SU 30 fleet along with Rafale mirages mig 29k
> 
> All these jets are twin engine and can carry double pay load double the speed and range
> 
> Today our skies have threat from massive IAF and now IN also uses Mig 29k jets
> 
> Our limited thinking will cost us air war which means we loose land and naval war
> 
> When india issued MRCA tender Paf said we wait until what india chooses than we react
> 
> But still PAF mentality is blocked by limitations
> 
> Paf needs to fill gap of twin engine jet
> 
> Countriez like indonesia dont have maintanance issue of SU 30
> 
> Being a professional force PAF should not think negatively on maintanance look positive how these flankers give you edge in war
> 
> If we need to bomb new dehli PAF with current firce cant do it
> 
> If syria can operate mig 31 which is also need hell of maintanance what prob paf had


My take is F-15E if it is available if you want to counter Su30 MKI whose upgradation to Super Sukhoi standandard will started from 2017 onwards which will nullify Su35 advantage. Actually I am wondering why it is not in PAF wishlist after decades of experience with F-16. Advantage of acquiring F-15 is the right approach with common weapon with F-16 and Paf experience with F-16. Pakistan had been the natural ally with the USA and USA can provide soft loans or the second hand upgraded F-15


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## Side-Winder

Tipu7 said:


> @Side-Winder



Says someone with 254 posts.
Well if that has to be taken into account, what a PDF member says, then:
Indian SAM and Missile Defence Capability
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300pmu.htm
Ballistic Missile Defence for India - Bharat Rakshak:Indian Air Force
There is a very potent air defence system across the border. Probably more lethal than we think it is.

btw the logic of the poster is flawed.


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## knight11

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> everybody have right to express what he thinks but reality is that Pakistan does not enjoy good relations with Russia even Pakistan is hesitant to buy helos but it is Russia who provide helos what you can said soft loans or payment after deliveries in installments in years to make India worry / jealous. If Pakistan opted for above type of jet Pakistan would go for Chinese remake of Russian.


In the modern world no one is friend or enemy its all business. Russia can sell any body its weapon if there is a profit. Which Chinese remake of Russia are you referring by the way.


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## al_asad_al_mulk

knight11 said:


> In the modern world no one is friend or enemy its all business. Russia can sell any body its weapon if there is a profit. Which Chinese remake of Russia are you referring by the way.


Many available probably J-11


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## knight11

Side-Winder said:


> Says someone with 254 posts.
> Well if that has to be taken into account, what a PDF member says, then:
> Indian SAM and Missile Defence Capability
> There is a very potent air defence system across the border. Probably more lethal than we think it is.
> 
> btw the logic of the poster is flawed.


Hello Sir my friend didn't posted all my quotes but S300 is not in Indian arsenal and I don't think any need for the system like S300 or S400 nor the Indians are interested otherwise they could have joined in the joint development. I don't have much hope with Akash Missile development also because the of the future threats like smart munition and low signature cruise missile makes the system like spyder, maitri and Barak missile the right choise. Can you explain why you think that my logic is flawed


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## PoKeMon

Viper0011. said:


> Too much English? Sounds like someone took the call center English training course.....how long do they go? 3 months? So next time I call Citi, you'll pick up and help me with my address change   back to the planet earth buddy. Know your role on the map before silly commenting on something!
> 
> I asked for a hourly cost of flying Rafale.....how about one of you actually answer the question instead of by passing the issue???



What a fool you are. Your comprehension shows you can't be anything but a pakistani janitor working in US. 

Abindonboy said - Rafale has one of best availability rate.

Another wannabe US idiot said - care to post per hour cost of fly.

Cant distinguish between availability and flying cost?

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## knight11

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> Many available probably J-11


And what will be role of J-11 and which aircraft it is going to replace ????


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## Manindra

Viper0011. said:


> Too much English? Sounds like someone took the call center English training course.....how long do they go? 3 months? So next time I call Citi, you'll pick up and help me with my address change   back to the planet earth buddy. Know your role on the map before silly commenting on something!


A Pakistani (sorry if hurt too much) not able to teach someone a call centre English as only thing they can do a giving other people reason for calling him stupid.



> I asked for a hourly cost of flying Rafale.....how about one of you actually answer the question instead of by passing the issue???


Here a member saying Rafale is maintenance nightmare


Goenitz said:


> Rafale is also maintenance maniac \.nightmere @Sliver


Here other poster saying not much as it have high availability rate (compared to flankers, F-15)


Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense, it has some of the highest availability rates of any twin engined fighter.


Now here you are mocking for what ? Nobody raise here issue of flight cost per hour.


Viper0011. said:


> In terms of what !!! Care to list out cost per hour flight time? That's usually outside of the purchase and infrastructure cost!


You are Pakistani who got American citizenship but it does not mean you would be different from Mirpuri British Pakistanis.

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## Viper0011.

PoKeMon said:


> What a fool you are. Your comprehension shows you can't be anything but a pakistani janitor working in US.
> 
> Abindonboy said - Rafale has one of best availability rate.
> 
> Another wannabe US idiot said - care to post per hour cost of fly.
> 
> Cant distinguish between availability and flying cost?



One more of this silly post and the mods will be called. I asked a simple question, instead of answering it, now I'll have a billion Indians trying to play Indians. How about you not respond to my post and if you do, answer the fukking question. Otherwise, I'll have to bring in Vedic times and get an answer from 6000 years ago Indians who used to fly their Ferraris running on water to Mars every day and travel inter-galaxy. Where Cancer was cured by one pill only, the AIDS would be cured by drinking a glass of Sacred Indian herb (no matter how many women you hit), and every Indian guy would live for thousands of years without ever getting old. The LED's were used as standard lights, the IPad's and IPhones existed then under Indian brand names, and the motor-bikes flew due to "Technology Advancement" all 6000 years ago!!!! We are fukking idiots living in today's word.

I'd rather be an American idiot than an Indian believing in the old times and being a super power!!! And acting all holly when your country is run by our funding and donated jobs. Where would you go if the US took all the jobs and investments away? The same shit you were in till the 95!!!!

Now how does it feel to derail the thread and bring in stupidity like you and your Indian cousins do (in your post above)?? My suggestion, answer the question and stay on topic. Don't derail as I can write a LOT about the country of India!!!

Here's the main question I asked. Its VERY obvious, NONE of you fools on here, know the answer. But you think the Rafale is a low maintenance plane!!!!!

"Provide me with an hourly maintenance cost of flying the Rafale please". If you don't know it, don't comment with stupidity and personals. Just move on to another post.

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## Reverse Thinker

Any idea which other fighters of 4 or 4+ gen tech in Russian inventory using RD-93 Engines if yes then we can consider that option plus with them RD-93 TOT for local production. in this way instead of purchasing RD 93s we will produce them locally according to our needs and for future engine needs for upcoming JF blocks and our engineers they will get experince of Engine Development because we don't have any local Engine Production for current and future fighters as compared to India they have local production facilities in this field.


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## Viper0011.

Manindra said:


> A Pakistani (sorry if hurt too much) not able to teach someone a call centre English as only thing they can do a giving other people reason for calling him stupid.



Call me Ram, the Big Daddy from the Vedic times who used to hit Lakshami and her sisters and cousins if you know what I mean. You'll add personals when I am merely asking a question, I'll cross all lines. Simple is that. Stay respectful and I will extend the courtesy. Otherwise, I'll retaliate like the US military does, go all in!!!!

Back to my question: "Can you provide me with Rafale's hourly flying and maintenance cost"?

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## PoKeMon

Viper0011. said:


> One more of this silly post and the mods will be called. I asked a simple question, instead of answering it, now I'll have a billion Indians trying to play Indians. How about you not response to my post and if you do, answer the fukking question. Otherwise, I'll have to bring in Vedic times and get an answer from 6000 years ago Indians who used to fly their Ferraris running on water to Mars every day and travel inter-galaxy. Where Cancer was cured by one pill only, the AIDS would be cured by drinking a glass of Sacred Indian herb (no matter how many women you hit), and every Indian guy would live for thousands of years without ever getting old. The LED's were used as standard lights, the IPad's and IPhones existed then under Indian brand names, and the motor-bikes flew due to "Technology Advancement" all 6000 years ago!!!! We are fukking idiots living in today's word.
> 
> I'd rather be an American idiot than an Indian retard believing in the Vedic times and being a super power, when 600 MILLION of my citizens can't take a sanitary shiit (literally, no bathrooms)!!! And acting all holly when your country is run by our funding and donated jobs. Where would you go if the US took all the jobs and investments away? The same shit hole you were in till the 95!!!!
> 
> Now how does it feel to derail the thread and bring in stupidity like you and your Indian cousins do (in your post above)?? My suggestion, answer the question and stay on topic. Don't derail as I can write a LOT about the country of India!!!
> 
> Here's the main question I asked. Its VERY obvious, NONE of you fools on here, know the answer. But you think the Rafale is a low maintenance plane!!!!!
> 
> "Provide me with an hourly maintenance cost of flying the Rafale please". If you don't know it, don't comment with stupidity and personals. Just move on to another post.



 

Janitor burst!!!

Idiot, he said high availability, that doesn't always mean low flying cost. Can't comprehend wannabe?


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## GURU DUTT

Indus Falcon said:


> But lower than the M2K5


read his reply again he said that about a TWIN Engine jet .... tell me sirji is M2K5 a twin engined jet fighter


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## touela

Pakistanisage said:


> Sir Bilal makes some very Powerful and Enlightening points regarding the future direction of Pakistan Air Force and its acquisition of next generation of aircraft. J-31 makes a lot of sense considering that it also uses the Russian Klimov RD-93 engine, which is already being used on JF-17 Thunder.


I got some questions regarding J 31. 
1) According Wikipedia, it can only have 4 air to air missile. Is it worth byuing it then?
2) Regarding its stealth capabilities, Pakistan might go for it in 2025, but what if there are radars at that time which somehow can locate stealth fighters ?


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## knight11

Reverse Thinker said:


> Any idea which other fighters of 4 or 4+ gen tech in Russian inventory using RD-93 Engines if yes then we can consider that option plus with them RD-93 TOT for local production. in this way instead of purchasing RD 93s we will produce them locally according to our needs and for future engine needs for upcoming JF blocks and our engineers they will get experince of Engine Development because we don't have any local Engine Production for current and future fighters as compared to India they have local production facilities in this field.


If you are including the variants also then MIG -29 SMT, MIG29k, MIG35. India is the only country outside Russia to manufacture RD33 from the raw material.


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## knight11

Viper0011. said:


> I am going to ignore your gibberish and stupid content, however, to answer your VALID question (like the one you couldn't answer for me), here's the cost:
> 
> F/A-18A-D has $18k cost per flying hour. However, the cost per flying hour on land based operations is listed as 10K per flying hour, per the comptroller's office (GAO reports, Comptroller, etc). This is due to reduce land based fatigue, compared to the carrier based fatigue that the aircraft go through when they are operational on a CBG.
> 
> Just to give you MORE quality, the estimated cost by government's comptroller's office for the -35 is estimated to be about $ 30-40 K, however, it is estimated that initially, it will be about 30-50% higher and as the platform gets deployed more and gets matured (bugs fixed and all), it will go down to $ 35-50 K per hour. Higher costs are primarily due to the "stealthy skin" (RAM quoting, special materials maintenance, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> How about you answer my question that you guys have been ignoring and bringing all these insults and all.......the question for the 20th time was:
> 
> "what was the per hour maintenance cost for the Rafale"?
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Horus : Please see these silly posts. I've asked a simple question as outlined above....and instead of getting an answer, the entire India is doing an Indo-Pak war. This behavior should not be allowed and people like these, should be banned who derail threads and force others to respond in kind.
> 
> 
> 
> I employee about 13 Indians in my team. I have to admit, they are much down to earth and nice people. Compared to people like you and your cousins, who have fake sense of super-being and think you can milk a country like the US, and become a bigger country when your system is run on American provided jobs and investments!!!


According to Janes 2012 the figure for the Rafale was USD 16500 per flying hour. Now what the hell are you trying to prove with these figures I give the shit what ever you trying to bring.

I have seen you making fun and talking respectfully for our culture, religion, past various times which we are proud of and you are useless, brainless, moralless, moron and there is nothing to talk with you. I have reported your above post and no need to reply me.


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## NIA

Pakistan should get j-10 or f-18....
Can anyone tell me when J-31 is entering mass production?


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## Tipu7

PoKeMon said:


> You can be Allah, Probhet, Jesus or Justin Beiber, least we care.



Mods have a look at this moron
@Horus @Irfan Baloch @Oscar

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## PoKeMon

Tipu7 said:


> Mods have a look at this moron



Whom are you calling "moron" moron?


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## Tipu7

PoKeMon said:


> Whom are you calling "moron" moron?



I am not interested in taking part any filthy games. You must be care full when dealing with Religious stuff.

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## PoKeMon

Viper0011. said:


> Call me Ram, the Big Daddy from the Vedic times who used to hit Lakshami and her sisters and cousins if you know what I mean. You'll add personals when I am merely asking a question, I'll cross all lines. Simple is that. Stay respectful and I will extend the courtesy. Otherwise, I'll retaliate like the US military does, go all in!!!!





Viper0011. said:


> I'll be Ram, hitting Seeta was fun, and her two sisters were fun if you know what I mean. I wrote the newer version of Kama Sutra. Its not as boring as the previous one was, the previous one was like old school, Vedic times, slow motion stuff. We are in 21t century and ask Seeta's sister, she's was thrilled on how we changed the entire Karma and Sutra separately..





Viper0011. said:


> No, it was a Vedic burst, from 6000 years ago. When Indians would fly cars traveling inter-galaxy. Why did you need to beg for American jobs if you were SO progressive? Bull shiit has another name, called "Vedic time" in Hindu religion. By the way, if you had flying cars back in the Vedic times, why didn't you build Rafale back then?



@Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @Slav Defence @waz

Please look at this orangzaib turned piper who is abusing a religion to core, using sex as a tool in hurling invective for holy figures.

This guy can feel proud of abusing a whole religion but getting offended for someone returning him the same (even then taking him individually and not his faith/country).

@Tipu7 Please read the post of this man to whom I replied. Also read my post again and in context. You will find that I meant no dis-respect to any faith.


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## Tipu7

PoKeMon said:


> Please read the post of this man to whom I replied. Also read my post again and in context. You will find that I meant no dis-respect to any faith.



I guess you are the one using name of ALLAH not viper. 
Instead of dragging this to further low level of morality you must have reported it to mods before Viper did..........


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## PoKeMon

Tipu7 said:


> I guess you are the one using name of ALLAH not viper.
> Instead of dragging this to further low level of morality you must have reported it to mods before Viper did..........



Using name of Allah is not derogatory, its the purpose what define it.

He said - call me ram.
I said - we dont care if he call himself anything.


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## aliyusuf

NIA said:


> Pakistan should get j-10 or f-18....
> Can anyone tell me when J-31 is entering mass production?



Not much is known about the J-31. People seem to be going gaga over it just on the basis of its looks. It is about the same size as F-35 ... slightly bigger. But it has two engines. That is the question mark here. With the space occupied by two engines how much space will be left for internal fuel and internal weapons? Will there be enough to for it make it go deep enough and carrying enough weapons internally for it to be a viable escort or strike platform? Can it exceed or even match the depth and payload of an F-16 for a similar mission? That is the question that needs to be answered. Because the moment you start hanging weapons and fuel tanks under the wing ... you negate the very core feature of it being stealth. LO CFT's may help and aerial refueling is another (but limiting option when full blown is in progress) ... but its an issue that needs ironing out. People need to understand that the plane that flew in last year's Zhuhai Air Show was not even a prototype but a technology demonstrator called 31001 by Shenyang, the manufacturer. How long things will take before mass production will take place is anybody's guess.


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## aliyusuf

Troublemaker said:


> These aircraft are also capable of carrying external payloads just like F22.



Yes they do. But when they do that the RCS increases and stealth is compromised.

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## NIA

aliyusuf said:


> plane that flew in last year's Zhuhai Air Show was not even a prototype but a technology demonstrator called 31001 by Shenyang,


So you say j-31 is under development?
Ok then what about j-20...? or f-18 hornet?


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## aliyusuf

NIA said:


> So you say j-31 is under development?
> Ok then what about j-20...? or f-18 hornet?



Its not just what I say ... its open to be found out if you google it. Not sure where the project is right now ... not much information on what work is being done.

As for the Super Hornet ... I doubt it. It's quite expensive to buy and cost of operation is too high for Pakistan. Furthermore I don't think the US will sell us that plane even if we wanted it. Above all it is not sanction proof. Just imagine after spending all that money you are at risk of being handicapped with sanctions.

J-20 will be a long time coming too, if China agrees to sell it. It is going to be China's premiere fighter. Their F-22 counterpart. This plane too will be quite costly to operate even if we eat grass to save up for buying it. Firstly Chinese demands will be fulfilled and only then they might acquiesce in selling it.

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## aliyusuf

Troublemaker said:


> I totally agree with you. But these factors will only matter when used for deep enemy strikes.



True. But there goes 50% of the advantage and utility of having a stealthy fighter ... if it cannot be too effective in being an escort or a strike platform.


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## abdulbarijan

NIA said:


> So you say j-31 is under development?
> Ok then what about j-20...? or f-18 hornet?



-Both J-31 and J-20 are under development and infact the J-31 has already performed in the Zuhahi air show, I think it was in 2014 ... The time frame of development phase will more or less come down on the engine and whether China wants to outsource it from Russia to be a little time efficient ... or will it go for an indigenous engine to be independent ..

Whatever the case maybe -- J-20 will not be seen in PAF colors .... the school of thought behind is to have much more maintenance friendly aircraft that need lesser work ... generating less turn around times etc. Hence for a 5th generation option, the J-31 is the Pakistani choice by default ... although the J-31 of today might not be the FC-31 ultimately being inducted in the PAF as the PAF has a history of modifying aircrafts with western avionics or going for much more advanced chinese options etc.

As far as the F-18 is concerned ... the only US aircraft under these circumstances that the PAF will go for is the F-16 ...



Troublemaker said:


> I totally agree with you. But these factors will only matter when used for deep enemy strikes.



RCS also matters in an air to air engagement ... the longer the vision of your electronic eye, and the better camouflaged you are from the enemy's electronic eye will more or less dictate the fate of a BVR engagement ...


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## Shabi1

PAF is never going against a F-22 level aircraft so no need for J-20.

Su-35 is a great aircraft and its supposed to have much lower maintenance requirements and it's engine/air frame life is twice of that the Su-30. But integrating a Russian fighter aircraft into PAF will be a pain, adding the supply chain and creating the infrastructure plus pilot training for it will be a lot tougher since PAF has never operated a Russian sourced jet before. Could take maybe 3-5yrs for properly integrating it. Plus will need a whole set of new munitions, also integrating it with Erieyes or ZDK AWACs might not be possible.

The remaining options are J-10B, F-16 and J-31. It can always get more F-16s, buy them and have them serving as soon as landed in Pakistan. J-10Bs will only be bought if the the Indian MMRCA deal had gone through in full numbers. J-31 will probably take another 5 years earliest to reach a decent maturity but it is Pakistan's most high tech option.

PAF needs at least a squadron worth of dedicated air superiority fighter, with more range and payload than the Thunder. So eventually it will have to buy a new jet but depending on threat level it is best preferred to hold it off and save funds for the J-31 or if there is a urgent war threat and funds can be diverted from other projects induct more F-16s. J-10Bs with their integrated IRST and AESA radars offer a very good air warfare advantage and good bang for the buck, but again if we can wait and make do with continuously beefed up JF-17s, the J-31 trumps it.

For now since Russia is opening up I think Pakistan will look towards helicopters, components, SAMs and improved engines from them. Maybe some Chinese systems which were previously being sidelined because of Russian parts (eg high end SAMs with Russian seekers).

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## 09ee97

There will be no SU-35 for PAF because:

1- Russia isn't stupid to destroy cordial relations with india.
2- We don't have this much money.


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## Super Falcon

knight11 said:


> My take is F-15E if it is available if you want to counter Su30 MKI whose upgradation to Super Sukhoi standandard will started from 2017 onwards which will nullify Su35 advantage. Actually I am wondering why it is not in PAF wishlist after decades of experience with F-16. Advantage of acquiring F-15 is the right approach with common weapon with F-16 and Paf experience with F-16. Pakistan had been the natural ally with the USA and USA can provide soft loans or the second hand upgraded F-15


Dear USA is not reliable source we suffered choosing F 16

Now world is moving out from US weapons slowly due to un expected bans and expansive weapons

China is going to be big player in 10 years



Muhammad Omar said:


> And till 10 years our 50 F-16 will be 4 decades old... and need to be replaced too....


Yes but this attitude PAF use them until they get out by fault


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## surya kiran

@Viper0011. request you to avoid bringing in religion and abusing using books which are considered holy by some, the same courtesy which is extended to your Koran. 

@waz @Irfan Baloch @Oscar


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## fatman17

Russia still has a very robust defence relationship with India. It will not sell offensive weapons to Pakistan. Defensive yes.


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## waz

I rubbished this SU-35 nonsense a while back and deleted the previous ludicrous thread.

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## elitepilot09

NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.

The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."

Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.

Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

EDIT AFTER INDIANS TROLLING THIS THREAD:

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## PurpleButcher

Su 35  something is definitely cooking

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## WishLivePak

I think the su is dual engine. Didn't turkey offered us some dual engine for students?


Why are we going for dual engine and Russian crafts? Focus on getting f16s, make jf better and start working on a 5th/6th gen fighter (they take 10-15 years) or spend money on drone which come out cheaper.

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## !eon

Seems Russia is trolling India on SU-35. 
Where is Rafale deal ? still unfinished ?

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## Beethoven

I still believe going for SU-35 is not a sane idea....better utilize those funds for procuring additional -16's

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## Maarkhoor

WishLivePak said:


> 6th gen

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## WishLivePak

VARCHASVE said:


>


US is already working on 6th gen. I heard major component is it not needing a pilot always. Could be wrong. 

Like I said, it takes 10-15 years. Technology is moving fast and a lot can be achieved in future. Of course we will seek help of China too, which will help expedite.

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## Paksanity

Well, well, well! It's more than rumours now. Deputy foreign minister of Russia being quoted by TASS means SU-35 is definitely on cards. Interesting times ahead I see.

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## SipahSalar

These are BS rumors. If we wanted to go for SU-35, we always have the option of J-11, and we can get it for cheaper costs. I don't see the sense in going for SU-35. Even if we ignore the costs, the logistical requirements will be too much.

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## Max

Just to tease India.. nothing serious..

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## Myth_buster_1

Su-35 is perfect stop gap until PAF gets hands of 5th gen. F-16 can not handle all Mig-29k M2k (upgraded) MKI and now Rafael on its own and JF-17 is not in that league.



SipahSalar said:


> These are BS rumors. If we wanted to go for SU-35, we always have the option of J-11, and we can get it for cheaper costs. I don't see the sense in going for SU-35. Even if we ignore the costs, the logistical requirements will be too much.


Just because you dont see canards in Su-35 does not mean it is in same league as J-11.

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## batmannow

Pakistan needs new pair of AIR -PUNCH , our decades old & over used & over projected F-16 needs a father shadow in the skies ?
Su35 are way better then all of its family , & has the capability to be a 5th generation fighter ?
Then again its another waste full minds debating about single engine vs double engine ?
As a PRO-AIRFORCE we need all of art ?
Double or single we need a beast in the air , which can show up in a dog fight & give a blowing last punch to our enemies ?
Let's say 50+ SU 35 PAF will take out the breath of anyone at longest of the targets ?

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## ice_man

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Su-35 is perfect stop gap until PAF gets hands of 5th gen. F-16 can not handle all Mig-29k M2k (upgraded) MKI and now Rafael on its own and JF-17 is not in that league.
> 
> 
> Just because you dont see canards in Su-35 does not mean it is in same league as J-11.



Bhai not stop gap. 

this is the best fighter out there! this even second hand would be amazing.

BUT MENTALITY OF PAKISTAN AND RUSSIA CAN MAKE BEST FREINDSHIP & THE 

*JUGAAAR ATTITUDE OF BOTH NATIONS *

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## batmannow

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Su-35 is perfect stop gap until PAF gets hands of 5th gen. F-16 can not handle all Mig-29k M2k (upgraded) MKI and now Rafael on its own and JF-17 is not in that league.
> 
> 
> Just because you dont see canards in Su-35 does not mean it is in same league as J-11.


You dam right!
But these peoples are in love with their toy called fighting falcon ?
Single engine ! Super shot ?lolzz



ice_man said:


> Bhai not stop gap.
> 
> this is the best fighter out there! this even second hand would be amazing.
> 
> BUT MENTALITY OF PAKISTAN AND RUSSIA CAN MAKE BEST FREINDSHIP & THE
> 
> *JUGAAAR ATTITUDE OF BOTH NATIONS *


If any way we got that birds , I will put it the best of noora govt ever done !

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## ice_man

batmannow said:


> If any way we got that birds , I will put it the best of noora govt ever done !



 BHAI nooroun ko idhar maat laao.

Norray are good for making motorway.

this is purely an airforce decision


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## batmannow

mkn_91 said:


> Just to tease India.. nothing serious..


Teasing India ?
Will they use depty foreign minster to give that statement ?
Friend Russia don't needs , any of that , they are just ready to bussines !
BTW , I guess Pakistan is getting ready to attack India THE DAM COLD END ?


ice_man said:


> BHAI nooroun ko idhar maat laao.
> 
> Norray are good for making motorway.
> 
> this is purely an airforce decision


& you think money will be given by PAF ? Themselves ?
Federal govt has to do all of the paper work & finances ?
actully it not been confirmed by PAF ,its the russian side , so let's hear from our boys but I think , COASs vist to Russia was very important .

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## Muhammad Omar

Su-35


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## macnurv

ice_man said:


> BHAI nooroun ko idhar maat laao.
> 
> Norray are good for making motorway.
> 
> this is purely an airforce decision



yar come on, the funds are to be provided by the GOP, PAF doesn't have its own little kitty stashed somewhere. So give credit where its due.

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## Politico

isolating hindustan from russia will be the best thing pak can do. it will be like cutting off a snake's tail

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## batmannow

macnurv said:


> yar come on, the funds are to be provided by the GOP, PAF doesn't have its own little kitty stashed somewhere. So give credit where its due.


Not the credit but should but to incrouge them for more ?
Feed me more !lolzz


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## Yaduveer

Politico said:


> isolating hindustan from russia will be the best thing pak can do. it will be like cutting off a snake's tail



Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s


_India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
_

_BrahMos cruise missile programme_
_5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)_
_Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)_
_Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft_
_Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
_

_Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative._
_T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India_
_Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)_
_INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme_
_Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)_
_US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29_
_Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)_
_Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)_
_The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force._

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## princefaisal

60 Su-35 would be a good figure for PAF.


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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollor* , Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> 
> 
> BrahMos cruise missile programme
> 5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollor)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)
> Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft
> Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> 
> 
> Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative.
> T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India
> Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)
> INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme
> Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)
> US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29
> Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)
> Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)
> The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force.


Those days were gone ,big brother CHINA is more keen to equipe Pakistan so can defend its huge investment in Pakistan ?lol

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## Yaduveer

batmannow said:


> Those days were gone ,big brother CHINA is more keen to equipe Pakistan so can defend its huge investment in Pakistan ?lol



China is not our concern, Everybody knows quality of Chinese product.

Russian want us to buy 40 more Su-30s which we would obliges but these type of media outing would do more harms than good to Russian sanctioned economy.


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## shah1398

Can anyone give the PAF version of this development? I have not seen or heard of any PAF involvement in this nor have heard from any PAF guy with regards to possible induction of SU-35s.


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## New Resolve

I think once India signs on with French Rafale, Everything will become fair game in Pak-Russia ties, Injuns up for a big shock.


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## batmannow

*







SU 35 *

*
The impressive Su-35S is the latest incarnation of the T-10 family of fighter aircraft. It would be fair to describe this aircraft as the pinnacle of current conventional fighter design, blending a superb basic aerodynamic design with advanced engine, flight control and avionic technology. 

The designation Su-35 has been applied to two basic Flanker configurations since 1991. The first aircraft to carry the Su-35 label was the early 1990s digital T-10M/Su-27M Flanker E, powered by the Al-31FM engine and fitted with the Tikhomirov NIIP N011 planar array radar. Export configurations were designated Su-35. This aircraft was used as the basis of the Su-37 Flanker F advanced technology demonstrator, often labelled as the Super Flanker. The Su-37 was used as a platform to prove a modern glass cockpit, the N011M BARS PESA radar, thrust vector control engines and a quadruplex digital flgiht control system with an electrical sidestick controller. Much of the technology proven on the Su-37 migrated into the Su-30MKI/MKM Flanker H exported to Asia.

The current Su-35S, ordered in 2009 for the Russian Air Force, was the result of a series of design studies for a deep modernisation of the Su-27M design. This was actually more of a deep re-engineering of the basic design in the manner of the F-15E against the F-15C performed during the 1980s. The new Su-35BM retained the basic aerodynamic design and much of the structural design of the late model Flanker, but sees important aerodynamic enhancements and completely new engines and digital systems.

Notable changes include the removal of the dorsal speedbrake, additional internal fuel, and plumbing for AAR and external drop tanks. A quadruplex digital flight control system is used. The Item 117S engines, which use key components of the Al-41F supercruising core, are employed. The Su-35S is the first non-US fighter with substantial sustained supersonic cruise capability, which provides this aircraft with an enormous energy advantage against conventional opponents in most regimes of air combat.

The avionic suite is fully digital. The centrepiece is the Tikhomirov NIIP N035 Irbis E (Snow Leopard) 20 kiloWatt class steerable hybrid ESA radar. A new glass cockpit is employed, using large area displays. The Khibiny electronic warfare suite is employed, with new wingtip DRFM technology jamming pods.

The aircraft is intended to carry the full spectrum of Russian air to air and air to ground guided weapons.

Given the large performance margin in the Su-35S design, it has considerable long term growth potential. It is likely that it will become the platform for the first Russian built large aperture AESA radars, as well as the R-172 very long range AAM.

In strategic terms the Su-35S is a game changer, as it robustly outclasses all competing Western fighter aircraft other than the F-22A Raptor. Deployed in significant numbers it is capable of changing the balance of power in any region where this occurs. This reality does not appear to be widely understood in most Western air forces, or DoD bureaucracies. Aircraft IOC will be achieved in 2012.*

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## SecularNationalist

We are also getting a twin engine aircraft trainer from russia which shows we re going to get some russian dual engine SU-35 jet.

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## Paksanity

shah1398 said:


> Can anyone give the PAF version of this development? I have not seen or heard of any PAF involvement in this nor have heard from any PAF guy with regards to possible induction of SU-35s.



Air Chief did say we are looking both east and west for our next fighter. I wonder if he meant Russia when he said east. No word by PAF otherwise on this.

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## rashid.sarwar

So tell we can't afford a nicely configured J17 and we are going for su35....


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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> China is not our concern, Everybody knows quality of Chinese product.
> 
> Russian want us to buy 40 more Su-30s which we would obliges but these type of media outing would do more harms than good to Russian sanctioned economy.




Su 35 are not Chinese made !
& China is one of the leading manufactures of the different weapons ?
Also not to mention , Chinese economy ?
& Russian s aren't dependent on India , for them China alone is enough ?
So basicly MOODI JEE , polices are going to hurt India in.longer term ?


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## Sipahi

We should buy some "Amreeki" ...


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## Kambojaric

elitepilot09 said:


> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to *Pakistan as Russia's closest partner* and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> 
> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



I find this statement quite confusing. Sure our relations are improving but we are far from being Russia's closest partner. Poor translation maybe?


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## Yaduveer

batmannow said:


> Su 35 are not Chinese made !
> & China is one of the leading manufactures of the different weapons ?
> Also not to mention , Chinese economy ?
> & Russian s aren't dependent on India , for them China alone is enough ?
> So basicly MOODI JEE , polices are going to hurt India in.longer term ?



Read this.


Yaduveer said:


> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> _BrahMos cruise missile programme_
> _5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)_
> _Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)_
> _Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft_
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> _Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative._
> _T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India_
> _Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)_
> _INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme_
> _Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)_
> _US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29_
> _Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)_
> _Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)_
> _The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force._


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## cmpk1

first off, good news! Gives PAF more options!

secondly, you can't just say these are just "rumours", today's news isn't coming from a "source", it is directly coming from the deputy FM! 

third; India will be sweating on this news & the fact that Moscow is coming closer to Islamabad 

fourth; I don't think money will be an issue as our economy is getting better, & such deals are not done on up front cash basis lol people with zero economic background amuse me, specially these Indian kids  These are long term defence deals! soft loans!

Now why India must be really worried? I've already said on PDF that Russia will become an important ally of Pakistan! why? Can India give access, to Russia, to warm waters? NO. Russia, & other central Asian states, will gain more from Pakistan! energy pipelines to India will go through Pakistan  then these countries will have access to Gawadar. It's about business, not friendship

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

*SU-35 ... *We gotta get this.


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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> Read this.


Already done , that was past not the future ?
Russians are cold heart peoples ?
Once you forget them they forget you forever ?Lil
China is the new financial super power so RUSSIA is more on China ,s side ?
& china,s interest in Pakistan right now economic corridor ?
Man they will make Pakistan so strong , that India would even forgets to think about COLD OR UNCOLD of its starts ?
Its up to India now to accept its stupid fake economical blackmailing of Russia in its past & be a good boy ?

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## Paksanity

Yaduveer said:


> It's up to Russia to decide whether they want India or Pakistan.
> 
> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> 
> BrahMos cruise missile programme
> 5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)
> Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft
> Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> 
> Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative.
> T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India
> Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)
> INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme
> Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)
> US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29
> Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)
> Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)
> The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force.
> _



Don't worry, Russians will not ditch India. They will sell you too while they sell us military equipment. If India can keep both US and Russia hooked at the same time, why can't Russians do it? You are not the only ones who know diplomacy. Russians are old players of world politics. They will play us both so chill out! They are here to mint money from both of us and they will do it besides some benefits from strategic location of Pakistan.

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## Yaduveer

Paksanity said:


> Don't worry, Russians will not ditch India. They will sell you too while they sell us military equipment. If India can keep both US and Russia hooked at the same time, why can't Russians do it? You are not the only ones who know diplomacy. Russians are old players of world politics. They will play us both so chill out! They are here to mint money from both of us and they will do it besides some benefits from strategic location of Pakistan.



Simple answer: Indian economy is not sanctioned but Russia economy is.

So it's not that they can ditch us , We will ditch them if they sell any critical hardware to Pakistan.

Read this :Help Russia during testing time of sanctions, Rostec appeals to Modi government - The Economic Times


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## Preacher

One of the greatest decision yet. 
Can anyone give an idea how many of these Su-35s we will be getting ?


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## cmpk1

@Yaduveer 


umm $300 billion for SU-35? you must be drunk or something!!! are you 16 yo? lol 

anyway, hope you guys stay buddies, if that's what you believe in. Times change & you're living in the past

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## Yaduveer

cmpk1 said:


> @Yaduveer
> 
> 
> umm $300 billion for SU-35? you must be drunk or something!!! are you 16 yo? lol
> 
> anyway, hope you guys stay buddies, if that's what you believe in. Times change & you're living in the past



Are you completely blind ? Where did I say $300billion for SU35 ?


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## Zarvan

If we can manage to get two squadrons of SU-35 it would change entire scenario in fact I am pretty sure if we soon sign the deal even USA will offer us lot more F-16 and most latest version. USA and Russia specially after CPEC can't afford to ignore us.

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## graphican

Pakistan should look to get something off-the-shelf with 1-2 years of delivery time frame.

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## cmpk1

Yaduveer said:


> It's up to Russia to decide whether they want India or Pakistan.
> 
> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> _._




lol.


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## Stannis Baratheon

It's probably to counter India's Rafale deal. Also, buying S-35 would be useless if it doesn't come with the supercruise engines.


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## Yaduveer

cmpk1 said:


> lol.



1st Learn how to comprehend.

I said $200-250 billion of worth of deals that India-Russia is currently engaged .I have provided list of some of deals. I said Russia won't dare to ditch $200 deals for sake of couple of Helis and Su35s.

Ab Samajh Aaya ?


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## omega supremme

SU-35 are good aircrafts maybe used as more of a bomber


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## Yaduveer

Stannis Baratheon said:


> It's probably to counter India's Rafale deal. Also, buying S-35 would be useless if it doesn't come with the supercruise engines.



Why don't you sell Pakistan your "Supercruise" engines ?

You are wasting them in Fishing boats.


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## syed zain naqvi

hope to see good relation with Russia ( habib ahmed rafiq keep up the good work in making PAK-RUS relation more strong )

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## Paksanity

Yaduveer said:


> Simple answer: Indian economy is not sanctioned but Russia economy is.
> 
> So it's not that they can ditch us , We will ditch them if they sell any critical hardware to Pakistan.
> 
> Read this :Help Russia during testing time of sanctions, Rostec appeals to Modi government - The Economic Times



You can't ditch them completely. I are buyer of weapons so are reliant on them. You can either buy all western or a mix. Your economy is not strong enough to buy all western. Case in point Rafale deal. You could buy 230 MKIs but could you afford 230 Rafales? No. Barely 36 of them. So there is that.

As far sanctions and Russian economic woes, China has much larger muscle than India. Russia will gladly do business with China which can better withstand western pressure. So please know where you stand in relations with Russia. You are far from dictating your terms and will keep buying a them in foreseeable future. They will sell us too.

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## Yaduveer

Paksanity said:


> You can't ditch them completely. I are buyer of weapons so are reliant on them. You can either buy all western or a mix. Your economy is not strong enough to buy all western. Case in point Rafale deal. You could buy 230 MKIs but could you afford 230 Rafales? No. Barely 36 of them. So there is that.
> 
> As far sanctions and Russian economic woes, *China has much larger muscle than India*. Russia will gladly do business with China which can better withstand western pressure. So please know where you stand in relations with Russia. You are far from dictating your terms and will keep buying a them in foreseeable future. They will sell us too.



You are not China. Please keep that in mind! Neither China is going to buy Su35s for you.


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## graphican

Su-35 will diversify our attacking and defensive strategies. I am all for SU-35!!! Bring it on!!!



Yaduveer said:


> You are not China. Please keep that in mind! Neither China is going to buy Su35s for you.



"You cannot buy these" is the only response Indians are left with. Guess what.. our buying power is not under Indian control.. so leave it to Pakistan. Just a suggestion.

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## Muhammad Omar

Yaduveer said:


> You are not China. Please keep that in mind! Neither China is going to buy Su35s for you.



Man why are you feeling so but hurt man?? posting 200 250 Billion deals again and again

Ja k Thanda pani pio bhai ..... Abhi deal sign ni hui koi... And yeah India even Protested over Mi-35 Heli and Russia didn't bother to listen that and Giving us Mi-35 

so chill it's business

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## Paksanity

Yaduveer said:


> You are not China. Please keep that in mind! Neither China is going to buy Su35s for you.



So basically you are saying Russian d.FM was dead drunk, floating in Vodka when he said that we are in negotiations with Pakistan for SU-35? Face the reality. You don't hold all the cards.

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## janu.bravo

Yaduveer said:


> 1st Learn how to comprehend.
> 
> I said $200-250 billion of worth of deals that India-Russia is currently engaged .I have provided list of some of deals. I said Russia won't dare to ditch $200 deals for sake of couple of Helis and Su35s.
> 
> Ab Samajh Aaya ?



LOL


----------



## IND151

elitepilot09 said:


> NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.
> 
> Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.
> 
> Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.
> 
> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM



Seems a tactics to pressurise India, at least when it comes to offering Su 35 to Pakistan.

One has to take a look at reduced share of Russia in Weapon Aquisition by India, sanctions that came after Ukraine fiasco and troubled Russian Economy which runs on hydrocarbons and which is hurt by flood of Cheap oil in market.

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## New Resolve

Well the Americans wont like it and might offer more block 52's, hmmm then we might have dilema, a good sort.

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## omega supremme

Yaduveer said:


> You are not China. Please keep that in mind! Neither China is going to buy Su35s for you.




Well here maybe u can be wrong there is no telling maybe china going to pay for those SU-35 for us


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## IND151

99% chance is PAF wont buy Su 35.

Reasons-

1. PAF Docrine-

PAF doctrine operate single engine, meduim/ light weight fighter only.
Now J 6 was twin engined but was a lightweight fighter.

SU 35 is a heavy multirole fighter.

2. Cost- It will be very costly, judging that in recent MKI order, each MKI costed India 102 Million Dollars.

Even with discounts, the SU 35 will cost no less than 90 Million dollars (lifecycle cost+ weapons).

3. Its Flanker- Su 35 belongs to flanker familiy. There are similraities between both SU 35 and Su 30 MKI and after Super MKI upgrade the difference will be very less.

Plus IAF has operated flankers more than 10 years which means it knows weaknesses and stengths thoroughly, a fact PAF cant overlook.

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## Yaduveer

graphican said:


> Su-35 will diversify our attacking and defensive strategies. I am all for SU-35!!! Bring it on!!!
> 
> 
> 
> "You cannot buy these" is the only response Indians are left with. Guess what.. our buying power is not under Indian control.. so leave it to Pakistan. Just a suggestion.



We rejected American Fighter F16 and F18 because we knew either we can fly Su30 or F18s in one time.

That's why we choose neutral France .




Muhammad Omar said:


> Man why are you feeling so but hurt man?? posting 200 250 Billion deals again and again
> 
> Ja k Thanda pani pio bhai ..... Abhi deal sign ni hui koi... And yeah India even Protested over Mi-35 Heli and Russia didn't bother to listen that and Giving us Mi-35
> 
> so chill it's business



That's what I am quoting. It's all business. Pakistan would have to sell itself to match Indian business with Russian Hardware. Isn't $250billionGDP of Pakistan ?



Paksanity said:


> So basically you are saying Russian d.FM was dead drunk, floating in Vodka when he said that we are in negotiations with Pakistan for SU-35? Face the reality. You don't hold all the cards.



We see some translation discrepancy in that article. Article mentioned pakistan as Russia's closest ally which is non-sense. Let some time pass, truth will emerge.


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## New Resolve

Why Indians so worried, of course PAF isnt going to buy SU35, Just sign on that dotted line the French are dangling in front of you

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## Muhammad Omar

New Resolve said:


> Well the Americans wont like it and might offer more block 52's, hmmm then we might have dilema, a good sort.



well Pakistan can order 18 more F-16 Block 52 

Plus i like you signature It's hilarious


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## New Resolve

Muhammad Omar said:


> well Pakistan can order 18 more F-16 Block 52
> 
> Plus i like you signature It's hilarious




lol I like trolling the indians a little bit man, they get a bit too cocky for no reason.

Pak and Russia are just tag teaming India here.

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## Muhammad Omar

Yaduveer said:


> That's what I am quoting. It's all business. Pakistan would have to sell itself to match Indian business with Russian Hardware. Isn't $250billionGDP of Pakistan ?
> 
> .



LOL man Kuch pee k to ni aai ho..? 

Russians Giving Pakistan Mi-35 
it offered SAMS to
I don't if Su-35 are rumors or not but there are many news 
Pakistan don't need to match india in defence deals 
Our requirement is not like India 
we can buy Su-35 in small numbers like we are buying Mi-35 

So we are not doing deals like 100's and 200's billion of dollars it's will probably few billion dollars 

If India had so much pressure on Russia then Russia won't even sell Mi-35 to Pakistan


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## hussain0216

Whats with the india dehati aurat act


This is just business 


We have F16s, does that mean india cant buy apaches from the yanks

No they sell you apaches and at the same time sell us vipers 


So why are indians all butt burnt about this, if Russia sells us weapons what has it to do with indian weapons deals

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## cmpk1

Indian's know more about PAF than PAF themselves. They know their future plans too. Then they also know that we can't buy any modern defence equipment, they're our economist too.

ok, we can't buy anything, yet you guys are sweating. hmm.

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## Stannis Baratheon

IND151 said:


> 99% chance is PAF wont buy Su 35.
> 
> Reasons-
> 
> 1. PAF doctrine to operate single engine, meduim/ light weight fighter only.
> Now J 6 was twin engined but was a lightweight fighter.
> 
> SU 35 is a heavy multirole fighter.
> 
> 2. Cost- It will be very costly, judging that in recent MKI order, each MKI costed India 102 Million Dollars.
> 
> Even with discounts, the SU 35 will cost no less than 90 Million dollars (flyaway cost+ weapons).
> 
> 3. Its Flanker- Su 35 belongs to flanker familiy. There are similraities between both SU 35 and Su 30 MKI and after Super MKI upgrade the difference will be very less.
> 
> Plus IAF has operated flankers more than 10 years which means it knows weaknesses and stengths thoroughly, a fact PAF cant overlook.



1. Pakistan has actually used 2 engine fighter jets until recently and India's acquisition of Rafale might change their stance on 2 engine fighter jets. Although I believe Rafale is for countering China and not Pakistan.

2. Cost is likely to be lower as ruble value has fallen. Also, the Flyaway cost is believed to be in between $40-65M and that is before the fall in ruble value.

3. The Su-35 is a multi-role air superiority and the Su-35S which Pakistan has shown interest in is lighter than the Su-27 and the Su-30.

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## Max

batmannow said:


> Will they use deputy foreign minster to give that statement ?




Then who will they use.. maybe they used Media first.. and now using Junior Minister  btw i have nothing against this deal, i wish we get 2,3 Sqd of SU- 35


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## Yaduveer

Muhammad Omar said:


> LOL man Kuch pee k to ni aai ho..?
> 
> Russians Giving Pakistan Mi-35
> it offered SAMS to
> I don't if Su-35 are rumors or not but there are many news
> Pakistan don't need to match india in defence deals
> Our requirement is not like India
> we can buy Su-35 in small numbers like we are buying Mi-35
> 
> So we are not doing deals like 100's and 200's billion of dollars it's will probably few billion dollars
> 
> If India had so much pressure on Russia then Russia won't even sell Mi-35 to Pakistan



In That case will cancel our deals with Russia as simple as that . Than we would watch from shores how much the sinking economy of Russia going to get help from Pakistan .

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## Paksanity

Indias Century said:


> See who is talking about economy......listen we are only investing 1.9% of our gdp in defence where the requirement is 3.0% atleast to balance china and pakistan.The fact is our govt is not investing in defence to invest more in other things.
> And see yourself you are investing 4.5% in defence still its barely 7 billion..we are buying 36 rafales because the deal was finalise for 12 billion dollars and suddenly they increase price to 20 billion...
> 
> Dont ever dare to talk about india's economy...it doesn't suits from you



Aaah...the great Indian economy! Fact are facts my dear. MMRCA fiasco says a lot about state of Indian economy. So let's keep the crap out and face what's real. What percentage we spend on defense and how meagre that translates into total defense budget, it is still enough to bring you here on a "Pakistani" defense forum and put forward explanations. It's the results in the end that matter, no?

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## Irfan Baloch

!eon said:


> *Seems Russia is trolling India *on SU-35.
> Where is Rafale deal ? still unfinished ?


please don't follow the Russian example and troll the Indians otherwise this thread will look like just any other thread in next few pages.

there is nothing to this news. re SU-35 it will be just the talks . nothing more than that. just look at what we operate and level of Indian and Russian relationship in defence. 

the reality is the Mi-35 Hinds that will be used against smugglers and insurgents in Baluchistan, KPK and tribal areas.

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## Preacher

Indians

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## slapshot

@MastanKhan Looks like PAF is following your threads


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## Chanakyaa

!eon said:


> Seems Russia is trolling India on SU-35.
> Where is Rafale deal ? still unfinished ?





mkn_91 said:


> Just to tease India.. nothing serious..



We have a perfect term : Presstitues


----------



## IND151

Stannis Baratheon said:


> 1. Pakistan has actually used 2 engine fighter jets until recently and India's acquisition of Rafale might change their stance on 2 engine fighter jets. Although I believe Rafale is for countering China and not Pakistan.
> 
> 2. Cost is likely to be lower as ruble value has fallen. Also, the Flyaway cost is believed to be in between $40-65M and that is before the fall in ruble value.
> 
> 3. The Su-35 is a multi-role air superiority and the Su-35S which Pakistan has shown interest in is lighter than the Su-27 and the Su-30.



Its life cycle cost which matters and you didnt reply to 3rd point?

And Russia cant afford to sell SU 35 to Pakistan as India is biggest Operator of Flankers (barring Russia) and main partner in FGFA project which needs money seriously.

The SU 35 offer seems to be pressurising tactics aimed at India.


----------



## SipahSalar

Irfan Baloch said:


> please don't follow the Russian example and troll the Indians otherwise this thread will look like just any other thread in next few pages.
> 
> there is nothing to this news. re SU-35 it will be just the talks . nothing more than that. just look at what we operate and level of Indian and Russian relationship in defence.
> 
> the reality is the Mi-35 Hinds that will be used against smugglers and insurgents in Baluchistan, KPK and tribal areas.


Russia doesn't give a rat's *** if weapons are used against India or not. Russia sells a shitload of weapons to China, which are very likely to end up being used against India, these weapons include S-400 missiles, Su-27s and what not and that does not seem to have jeapordised Russian-Indian relationship. So surely Russia can sell it's best weapons to Pakistan without any conscience issues.

That being said, Pakistan may be reluctant to buy these Su-35's since buying them does not make any sense. The lesser variety of planes you fly, the easier the training of new recruits, the cheaper the logistics and maintenance.

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## Irfan Baloch

IND151 said:


> 99% chance is PAF wont buy Su 35.
> 
> Reasons-
> 
> 1. PAF Docrine-
> 
> PAF doctrine operate single engine, meduim/ light weight fighter only.
> Now J 6 was twin engined but was a lightweight fighter.
> 
> SU 35 is a heavy multirole fighter.
> 
> 2. Cost- It will be very costly, judging that in recent MKI order, each MKI costed India 102 Million Dollars.
> 
> Even with discounts, the SU 35 will cost no less than 90 Million dollars (lifecycle cost+ weapons).
> 
> 3. Its Flanker- Su 35 belongs to flanker familiy. There are similraities between both SU 35 and Su 30 MKI and after Super MKI upgrade the difference will be very less.
> 
> Plus IAF has operated flankers more than 10 years which means it knows weaknesses and stengths thoroughly, a fact PAF cant overlook.


you summed it up well. its nothing more than just showing interest and having conversation (tea/ coffee, vodka talk ) on what Russia got and what Pakistan might have had if it had a different doctrine etc.

Mi-35 is no issue since its sale has no impact on relations and is insignificant and strictly against those terrorists that are Pakistan and Russian common enemies like Chechen etc operating in Pak/ Afghan border area



SipahSalar said:


> Russia doesn't give a rat's *** if weapons are used against India or not.* Russia sells a shitload of weapons to China, which are very likely to end up being used against India,* these weapons include S-400 missiles, Su-27s and what not and that does not seem to have jeapordised Russian-Indian relationship. So surely Russia can sell it's best weapons to Pakistan without any conscience issues..


you make a compelling point re what I bolded in your quote. but I still think Russia is different to USA.. it does care about India and even after easing relations with Pakistan, it refused to sell jets to Musharraf when we only had older block F-16s.

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## cmpk1

Irfan Baloch said:


> please don't follow the Russian example and troll the Indians otherwise this thread will look like just any other thread in next few pages.
> 
> there is nothing to this news. re SU-35 it will be just the talks . nothing more than that. just look at what we operate and level of Indian and Russian relationship in defence.
> 
> the reality is the Mi-35 Hinds that will be used against smugglers and insurgents in Baluchistan, KPK and tribal areas.



4 is the initial batch. Just like we've paid for just 2 AH-Z1 vipers. 

There is just too much pessimism. I don't think deputy FM of Russia is making statements just for fun. Times change & so do strategies. I have no doubt that Russia will have a closer working relationship with Pakistan. Already have quite a few Russian equipment. Do you think we got JF17 engines without the approval of Russian higher ups? It has taken over a decade of diplomacy, such things take a lot of time. be patient.


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## batmannow

Zarvan said:


> If we can manage to get two squadrons of SU-35 it would change entire scenario in fact I am pretty sure if we soon sign the deal even USA will offer us lot more F-16 and most latest version. USA and Russia specially after CPEC can't afford to ignore us.


That's the policy is !


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## Irfan Baloch

cmpk1 said:


> 4 is the initial batch. Just like we've paid for just 2 AH-Z1 vipers.
> 
> There is just too much pessimism. I don't think deputy FM of Russia is making statements just for fun. Times change & so do strategies. I have no doubt that Russia will have a closer working relationship with Pakistan. Already have quite a few Russian equipment. *Do you think we got JF17 engines without the approval of Russian higher ups? *It has taken over a decade of diplomacy, such things take a lot of time. be patient.


again highlighting a very valid point 

BUT

Su-35 is a completely different beast. its a top tier heavy weight fighter. there is simply no comparison to it against an engine sale approval for a modest light weight jet.

there is no pessimism from my side, just reality re our past and Indian factor. Russia Pakistan relationships are improving and they don't have to be military in nature.

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## batmannow

Irfan Baloch said:


> please don't follow the Russian example and troll the Indians otherwise this thread will look like just any other thread in next few pages.
> 
> there is nothing to this news. re SU-35 it will be just the talks . nothing more than that. just look at what we operate and level of Indian and Russian relationship in defence.
> 
> the reality is the Mi-35 Hinds that will be used against smugglers and insurgents in Baluchistan, KPK and tribal areas.


Sure then next time when any Russian depty FM talks on any thing we should consider it just hearsay ?
BTW Russia has the best military hard ware next to america , we won't be buying patatos from them ?
Russians & Chinese feel Indian policies in the region as a threat to thier national interests & they feel that by opening up Iran Americans are making a new political & economical block so they are pushing INDIA as the new god father in south east Asia ?
With that said China as the key financial player in the region will never support any of political or economical edge of India through its military might ?
There for it will directly or indirectly support pakistans defences .
Su 35 is just another step on that !

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## Pindi Boy

Yaduveer said:


> We rejected American Fighter F16 and F18 because we knew either we can fly Su30 or F18s in one time.
> 
> That's why we choose neutral France .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I am quoting. It's all business. Pakistan would have to sell itself to match Indian business with Russian Hardware. Isn't $250billionGDP of Pakistan ?
> 
> 
> 
> We see some translation discrepancy in that article. Article mentioned pakistan as Russia's closest ally which is non-sense. Let some time pass, truth will emerge.



P abay tu kyun jal rha hai ?????

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## Yaduveer

batmannow said:


> Sure then next time when any Russian depty FM talks on any thing we should consider it just hearsay ?
> BTW Russia has the best military hard ware next to america , we won't be buying patatos from them ?



"The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as *Russia's closest partner* " Do you believe this line ?

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> If we can manage to get two squadrons of SU-35 it would change entire scenario in fact I am pretty sure if we soon sign the deal even USA will offer us lot more F-16 and most latest version. USA and Russia specially after CPEC can't afford to ignore us.


as the Punjabis always say to me

*گل ای کوی نی*

you made it seem way too easy. we might as well ask sorry I mean demand F-35 as well while we are at it

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## black-hawk_101

WishLivePak said:


> I think the su is dual engine. Didn't turkey offered us some dual engine for students?
> 
> 
> Why are we going for dual engine and Russian crafts? Focus on getting f16s, make jf better and start working on a 5th/6th gen fighter (they take 10-15 years) or spend money on drone which come out cheaper.


New and used F16s are needed.


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## Yaduveer

usama fiaz said:


> P



I won't lie , we are surprised !
But luckily this time,we have enough cards to stall any such deals.

but blind trust on Ruskies has disappeared as fart in the wind.


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## nomi007



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## cmpk1

Irfan Baloch said:


> again highlighting a very valid point
> 
> BUT
> 
> Su-35 is a completely different beast. its a top tier heavy weight fighter. there is simply no comparison to it against an engine sale approval for a modest light weight jet.
> 
> there is no pessimism from my side, just reality re our past and Indian factor. Russia Pakistan relationships are improving and they don't have to be military in nature.



i would've sided with you, but since US is now taking defence orders from India, situation has changed. Russians are now open to deal with us, India will have no reason to whine & cry. 

plus, another favourable factor is the fact that both countries have been engaged in talks since Gen Musharaf days, & we've come a long way in past decade, now things will move to the next level for sure. 

Russians have huge investment opportunities now .i.e energy sector, defence & the CPEC. They just can't ignore Pakistan anymore, specially the way India back stabbed Russia & hugged US.

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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> "The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as *Russia's closest partner* " Do you believe this line ?


For now yes , countries policies changes with their national interests for now russias national interests are with China & for them Pakistan is far more trusted allay then of India ?

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## black-hawk_101

batmannow said:


> Pakistan needs new pair of AIR -PUNCH , our decades old & over used & over projected F-16 needs a father shadow in the skies ?
> Su35 are way better then all of its family , & has the capability to be a 5th generation fighter ?
> Then again its another waste full minds debating about single engine vs double engine ?
> As a PRO-AIRFORCE we need all of art ?
> Double or single we need a beast in the air , which can show up in a dog fight & give a blowing last punch to our enemies ?
> Let's say 50+ SU 35 PAF will take out the breath of anyone at longest of the targets ?


50 SU-35
50 F-16
100 used F-16
150 JF-17


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> as the Punjabis always say to me
> 
> *گل ای کوی نی*
> 
> you made it seem way too easy. we might as well ask sorry I mean demand F-35 as well while we are at it


Well F-16 would but F-35 close to impossible. I am pretty sure if we order two squadrons of SU-35 I am pretty sure within days USA will offer two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 52 on really easy terms

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## Pindi Boy

Yaduveer said:


> "_The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as *Russia's closest partner*_ " Do you believe this line ?


stop acting like this man

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## batmannow

Irfan Baloch said:


> as the Punjabis always say to me
> 
> *گل ای کوی نی*
> 
> you made it seem way too easy. we might as well ask sorry I mean demand F-35 as well while we are at it


I'm sure if any American deputy forghien secratry has said the same thing about F-35 you will be accepting it quite nicly ?


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## Yaduveer

batmannow said:


> For now yes , countries policies changes with their national interests for now russias national interests are with China & for them Pakistan is far more trusted allay then of India ?



OK then you are getting big tranche of Su 35 soon . Enjoy your Su 35.

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## Zarvan

black-hawk_101 said:


> 50 SU-35
> 50 F-16
> 100 used F-16
> 150 JF-17


250 JF-17 not 150

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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> OK then you are getting big tranche of Su 35 soon . Enjoy your Su 35.


Won't be like that but even 35 of su 35 ,s will bring Indian air force to think million times before commiting any madness of the MOODI JEE ,s immature political mind ?
Dam cold start ?lolzz



black-hawk_101 said:


> 50 SU-35
> 50 F-16
> 100 used F-16
> 150 JF-17


I don't know about it friend , but we need it as much as we can ?


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## Eagle Claw

SipahSalar said:


> These are BS rumors. If we wanted to go for SU-35, we always have the option of J-11, and we can get it for cheaper costs. I don't see the sense in going for SU-35. Even if we ignore the costs, the logistical requirements will be too much.



There is a Huge difference b/w J-11 and Su-35  
There will be not much logistic issue as we are retire all old fleet of Mirages and F-7s which will itself reduce the load. In coming future PAF will have 3 type of Aircrafts in the inventory and they will be Su-35, F-16s, JF-17 Thunder !

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## Paksanity

Irfan Baloch said:


> again highlighting a very valid point
> 
> BUT
> 
> Su-35 is a completely different beast. its a top tier heavy weight fighter. there is simply no comparison to it against an engine sale approval for a modest light weight jet.
> 
> there is no pessimism from my side, just reality re our past and Indian factor. Russia Pakistan relationships are improving and they don't have to be military in nature.



But sir, you have to give credit to our diplomatic efforts. Just the talk of selling Su-35 to Pakistan by deputy FM indicates some serious progress has been made. Su-35 may never fly in our colors but we sure have diversified our options. Something I really approve of.

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## batmannow

Zarvan said:


> 250 JF-17 not 150


Anyway it will bring us the strong & deep air cover & the preasure on our eagles will be sorted out ?

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## black-hawk_101

batmannow said:


> Won't be like that but even 35 of su 35 ,s will bring Indian air force to think million times before commiting any madness of the MOODI JEE ,s immature political mind ?
> Dam cold start ?lolzz
> 
> 
> I don't know about it friend , but we need it as much as we can ?


Will ME going to help PAF getting 50 SU-35 & 50 F-16 in addition to used F16s from Egypt n Jordan.


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## Irfan Baloch

batmannow said:


> I'm sure if any American deputy forghien secratry has said the same thing about F-35 you will be accepting it quite nicly ?


will have same reaction.

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## Zarvan

batmannow said:


> Anyway it will bring us the strong & deep air cover & the preasure on our eagles will be sorted out ?


Just imagine 250 JF-17 plus around 100 F-16 and 50 SU-35 all with latest BVR what it would do to Indian Air Force in any conflict and also latest Air Defence systems



black-hawk_101 said:


> Will ME going to help PAF getting 50 SU-35 & 50 F-16 in addition to used F16s from Egypt n Jordan.


Well help from KSA can come for sure


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## bdslph

SU35 go for it  expensive but awesome 
or Su 30 34 32 

i think Russia is messing with India


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## cmpk1

Zarvan said:


> Just imagine 250 JF-17 plus around 100 F-16 and 50 SU-35 all with latest BVR what it would do to Indian Air Force in any conflict and also latest Air Defence systems
> 
> 
> Well help from KSA can come for sure



not a shopping list.

as for KSA, they do not like Russians! will never help us get Russian tech lol.


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## Zarvan

cmpk1 said:


> not a shopping list.
> 
> as for KSA, they do not like Russians! will never help us get Russian tech lol.


Really KSA has decided to invest 10 billion dollars in KSA and KSA is also going to buy some weapons from Russia including some short range ballistic missiles mate

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## chocolatelyhero

We ll be competing current indian airforce if got SU-35
WOW! I am surprised we getting SU-35
JF-17 and F-16 are behind SU-30


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## Quwa

I admit, I got owned. 

But seriously, we haven't gotten a real statement yet, seems Dawn is just reiterating the original source, Sputnik.


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## RoadRunner401

NIZHNY TAGIL (Russia), September 9 (Sputnik) — Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.
"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.

Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.
Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India

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## GURU DUTT

Yaduveer said:


> "The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as *Russia's closest partner* " Do you believe this line ?


your wasting your time here dont bother let them make cloud castels how does it matters to us 

india has bought colse to 200+ helicopters and some 300+ jets from russia in last two decades alone and yet pakistanies love to dream like russia will ditch india cause pakistan is buying 4 attack helies and just might buy 3 full squads of Su-35


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## airmarshal

News coming constantly from Russian sourcies and high ranking Russian officials talking about the sale of Su-35. There cant be smoke without the fire. 

But to me, buying such a huge platform with totally new expertise and maintenance infrastructure does not make sense.

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> your wasting your time here dont bother let them make cloud castels how does it matters to us
> 
> india has bought colse to 200+ helicopters and some 300+ jets from russia in last two decades alone and yet pakistanies love to dream like russia will ditch india cause pakistan is buying 4 attack helies and just might buy 3 full squads of Su-35


That old decade is over , come out of it ?lolzz

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## Yaduveer

GURU DUTT said:


> your wasting your time here dont bother let them make cloud castels how does it matters to us
> 
> india has bought colse to 200+ helicopters and some 300+ jets from russia in last two decades alone and yet pakistanies love to dream like russia will ditch india cause pakistan is buying 4 attack helies and just might buy 3 full squads of Su-35



Der main samajh aaya .. lekin aa gaya .. I actually quit the discussion with bellow note.



Yaduveer said:


> OK then you are getting big tranche of Su 35 soon . Enjoy your Su 35.

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> That old decade is over , come out of it ?lolzz


but still FGFA & MKI is very much on just to say the least but no harm in dreaming keep dreaming .... cheers mate


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## batmannow

airmarshal said:


> News coming constantly from Russian sourcies and high ranking Russian officials talking about the sale of Su-35. There cant be smoke without the fire.
> 
> But to me, buying such a huge platform with totally new expertise and maintenance infrastructure does not make sense.


Its over due , past 3 decades we live under one super powers influence , we need yo break the cycle & to open up our selves for new horizons at some point , with SU 35 we will bring a bond with no expiry date with Russia ?



GURU DUTT said:


> but still FGFA & MKI is very much on just to say the least but no harm in dreaming keep dreaming .... cheers mate


Ohh my god , how many of those FGFA are flown by Indian pilots ?lolzz


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## Mutakalim

WishLivePak said:


> I think the su is dual engine. Didn't turkey offered us some dual engine for students?


What?


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## cmpk1

GURU DUTT said:


> your wasting your time here dont bother let them make cloud castels how does it matters to us
> 
> india has bought colse to 200+ helicopters and some 300+ jets from russia in last two decades alone and yet pakistanies love to dream like russia will ditch india cause pakistan is buying 4 attack helies and just might buy 3 full squads of Su-35



no one said Russia is going to ditch India. The thing that has changed is this "You guys went to US & Russians came to us with offers". No hard feelings, buddy. 

The thing which is annoying India is the fact that Pakistan is now getting closer to Russia. 

As for numbers, India has always been superior at that front, & funny thing is that a small country like Pakistan (190 million) has been a pain in the a55 for a country with 1.25 Billion people, since 1947. 

I'm also quite happy to see China invest money in India, they're getting their returns & we'd be getting new defence toys with the $ you send to China. win win for a small country like Pakistan.

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## Last Samuri

IF PAF can part with $5 billion to buy 50 SU35 then why not.

BUT you wont get soft loans from Russia LIKE you did on the Thunders

OR grant AID LIKE DID ON F16

NO FREEBIE from Russia JUST HARD CASH

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## Mutakalim

batmannow said:


> Already done , that was past not the future ?
> Russians are cold heart peoples ?
> Once you forget them they forget you forever ?Lil
> China is the new financial super power so RUSSIA is more on China ,s side ?
> & china,s interest in Pakistan right now economic corridor ?
> Man they will make Pakistan so strong , that India would even forgets to think about COLD OR UNCOLD of its starts ?
> Its up to India now to accept its stupid fake economical blackmailing of Russia in its past & be a good boy ?


Leave them. Now he will repeat this thing 1000 times.

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## graphican

IND151 said:


> 99% chance is PAF wont buy Su 35.
> 
> Reasons-
> 
> 1. PAF Docrine-
> 
> PAF doctrine operate single engine, meduim/ light weight fighter only.
> Now J 6 was twin engined but was a lightweight fighter.
> 
> SU 35 is a heavy multirole fighter.
> 
> 2. Cost- It will be very costly, judging that in recent MKI order, each MKI costed India 102 Million Dollars.
> 
> Even with discounts, the SU 35 will cost no less than 90 Million dollars (lifecycle cost+ weapons).
> 
> 3. Its Flanker- Su 35 belongs to flanker familiy. There are similraities between both SU 35 and Su 30 MKI and after Super MKI upgrade the difference will be very less.
> 
> Plus IAF has operated flankers more than 10 years which means it knows weaknesses and stengths thoroughly, a fact PAF cant overlook.



I disagree on several aspects.

PAF is going for another single engine platform J-31 in some 10 years time frame. When adding a new platform between now and J-31, opting for yet another single engine platform like J-10B wouldn't make sense. Twin-Engine platform is missing from its spectrum and it is a need which Su-35 fills the best.
Cost: Su-35 for India was at 40 millions when negotiations were going on. Now it may be 45 but not 90 millions. Life cycle cost is understood but it wouldn't prevent us from buying something which is a need.
India has 10 years of Su-30 flying experience, agree - but through China, Pakistan has been preparing in it and against it. There will be difference of experience for sure but that will be covered over time.
Personally, I believe Su-35 is the way to go and PAF should opt for it over J-10s or J-11Ds.

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## Cry.me.a.River

Yaduveer said:


> It's up to Russia to decide whether they want India or Pakistan.
> 
> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> BrahMos cruise missile programme
> 
> 5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)
> 
> Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft
> _
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative.
> 
> T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India
> 
> Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)
> 
> INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme
> 
> Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)
> 
> US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29
> 
> Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)
> 
> Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)
> 
> The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force.
> _




Even if Russians decide to sell Su-35 to Pakistanis, there won't be any major change in Indo-Russian deals for now. It would only undermine Russia's credibility as even French have stopped dealing with Pak due to large orders we placed with them (not including Rafale).



Actually it would be liberating for India, if Russians and their fanboys in ministry shut up about special relationship and what not, which they would if this deal does happen. The old generation is still in USA bad mode and could not see changed geopolitical realities.



graphican said:


> Cost: Su-35 for India was at 40 millions when negotiations were going on. Now it may be 45 but not 90 millions. Life cycle cost is understood but it wouldn't prevent us from buying something which is a need.


There were never any negotiations going on between India and Russia for Su-35. Form where do you people get your NEWS?


Second, Su-35 would cost around 100-120 million dollar per plane in flyaway condition. Even Su-30 costs 100 million.


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## Mutakalim

Yaduveer said:


> "The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as *Russia's closest partner* " Do you believe this line ?


The biggest problem in the way of believing is your Indian nationality apart from translation mistake. You people can't believe anything positive happening to Pakistan.

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## Irfan Baloch

Last Samuri said:


> IF PAF can part with $5 billion to buy 50 SU35 then why not.
> 
> BUT you wont get soft loans from Russia LIKE you did on the Thunders
> 
> OR grant AID LIKE DID ON F16
> 
> NO FREEBIE from Russia JUST HARD CASH


sure I will pass this information to Russian FM on your behalf. and even if he offered some concessions then I will tell him that Indian posters dont want that and we need to take care of your feelings



Zarvan said:


> Well F-16 would but F-35 close to impossible. I am pretty sure if we order two squadrons of SU-35 I am pretty sure within days USA will offer two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 52 on really easy terms


of course 
Gul e Koi Naey
and i think we should reject the F-16 offer and demand F-35. Americans will have no option and do what we tell them.

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## 21 Dec 2012

Good. Now ditch PAK and buy F-35.


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## Blue Marlin

at first i thought it was rubbish and all lies. now if the dawn is reporting this then there must be some development at least. and if the paf air chief is looking for some new jets from the west then the su35 may be that jet from the west.
and if you think about it, its a good choice the su35 is front line fighter, a big dog fighter , where as the j31 is a stealth fighter. like what china is doing the the j20/31 first strikes and taking out the radars and then the j11/ su30 then moves in to secure the skies. this means pakistans doctrine of a defence air force is changing towards a offensive airforce and also to that of twin engined jets as well as opposed to the singled engined jets. the su35 will be priced around the cost of a j31. around $60 million (dependant on specs). but i don have concerns in terms of maintenance. the su27 family is known to be a hangar queen, and may result in paf operational jets percentage to be reduced. my thoughts on the su35 is neutral it has it good uses and bad uses. tbh the eft is an ideal solution. the jet is much more sophisticated than the su35 is and its more agile, yet it much more expensive. also the ej200 stage 2 can be used on the jf17 and the j31 this use of using the same engine reduces maintenance costs, also the ej200 s2 is more powerful than the ws13, but there is the risk of being to dependant on the engine


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## Windjammer

Roman 12 said:


> Lol yes the same pain in the a$$ got bifurcated in two parts so don't worry you aren't a concern for us if you really want to see the pain in the @$$ then you can send your army(bangle wearing army) to Kashmir for liberation as they tried in 65 and 99 we will welcome them very calmly as we did in the past.
> And when you get your su35 then we will talk about it till then you are free to dream whatever you like.


Kind of big talk from skinny a$$ chudi brigade, we may or may not get the SU-35, but your presence on this thread debunks your tiny ego , without concern why else would you be compelled to be here or it's just habitual for your kind to poke nose in all that concerns Pakistan.

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## Preacher

Only a few hours after the news people started to think about the Coating / paint scheme for the SU-35m  
--- Shows how passionate and excited we are hope the deal will be confirmed soon


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## Hephaestus

Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said,Sputnik reported.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.

The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."

The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth generation jets, according to details available on the Sukhoi company's website. It is also said to be more agile as compared to previous models.

Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.

Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
@GURU DUTT @Abingdonboy


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## Hephaestus

Hephaestus said:


> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> @GURU DUTT @Abingdonboy



This sounds ponder worthy?? What say guys ?


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## Preacher

Avoid dupilcate threads. 
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM


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## Preacher

PARIKRAMA said:


>




Reminds me of Mi-35m deal


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## SpArK

Su_35 is an excellent choice since the capabilities of Su-30MKis are well known and was a concern.

Su-35s would be superior to MKIs and is an opportunity to alter the statistics since other options like J-11 and other fighters or even derivatives of Sukhoi 27 series from China is not half as good as Su-35s.

Hope to see it in neighborhood skies soon.

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## deckingraj

SpArK said:


> Su_35 is an excellent choice since the capabilities of Su-30MKis are well known and was a concern.
> 
> Su-35s would be superior to MKIs and is an opportunity to alter the statistics since other options like J-11 and other fighters or even derivatives of Sukhoi 27 series from China is not half as good as Su-35s.
> 
> Hope to see it in neighborhood skies soon.


Agreed....Su_35 is a great platform, however the reason we never went for them was because we had all the capabilities(or atleast comparable) in MKI's, no?? So when you say it is superior i am assuming just by few notches(if at all)

@Indian Members - There is no reason for us to feel bad/threatened. If this deal went through then certainly there will be geo-political shifts which is not necessarily a bad thing. My take is more of pressure tactics but let's see how it goes.

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## Beethoven

OK the since a lot of members over here seem to favor the induction of Su-35 in the PAF let me offer my two cents too....see the first thing that goes against the Su series is its HUGE RCS....this point I think has been discussed in this forum with reference to the MKI....secondly the radar on board the Su-35 is a PESA...while PAF I think now a days is on the look out for aircraft that has an AESA...compare these stats with the J-10B...lower RCS because of the use of DSI bump....AESA radar on board as well as IRST which incidentally is present in the Su-35 as well...so concluding my argument I say if we had to go for another fighter J-10B would be a saner choice than the Su-35

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## deckingraj

Windjammer said:


> Kind of big talk from skinny a$$ chudi brigade, we may or may not get the SU-35, but your presence on this thread debunks your tiny ego , without concern why else would you be compelled to be here or it's just habitual for your kind to poke nose in all that concerns Pakistan.


*Off topic*...but think about it...how can we be pain in a$$ without having our presence here?? 

*On Topic*
This talk of pain or no pain is rubbish. IMHO - The odds of this deal going through is remote because Russia has still occupied a very decent piece of pie in our defense budget. Logically speaking giving a strategic weapon to Pakistan thereby undermining our security will certainly not go well here. If we leave jingoism and look it from pure economics perspective this deal might not be good for Russia's interest, no??



Beethoven said:


> OK the since a lot of members over here seem to favor the induction of Su-35 in the PAF let me offer my two cents too....see the first thing that goes against the Su series is its HUGE RCS....this point I think has been discussed in this forum with reference to the MKI....secondly the radar on board the Su-35 is a PESA...while PAF I think now a days is on the look out for aircraft that has an AESA...compare these stats with the J-10B...lower RCS because of the use of DSI bump....AESA radar on board as well as IRST which incidentally is present in the Su-35 as well...so concluding my argument I say if we had to go for another fighter J-10B would be a saner choice than the Su-35


With due respect your concern about RCS is not valid anymore, no?? With AWACs on both sides do you think low RCS by few notches will be a game changer?


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## Beethoven

deckingraj said:


> With due respect your concern about RCS is not valid anymore, no?? With AWACs on both sides do you think low RCS by few notches will be a game changer?


Agree with you....you can't say its a game changer but it does give an edge....if you ignore the RCS part the radar will definitely play a role in the selection of an aircraft.....how do you compare the BARS PESA radar on board the Su-35 with an AESA radar that has 1200 modules?????


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## GURU DUTT

Hephaestus said:


> Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said,Sputnik reported.
> 
> Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.
> 
> Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.
> 
> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth generation jets, according to details available on the Sukhoi company's website. It is also said to be more agile as compared to previous models.
> 
> Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> @GURU DUTT @Abingdonboy


we all know that very well but whats the point you intend to make and tagged me  lets be short/brief & precise


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## cmpk1

India cannot ditch Russia, even if it sells us SU35, you can't just go out, take your shopping cart & buy 100-200 Rafales or F35, the next day lol you got a HUGE inventory of Russian equipment! You need Russia, no matter what happens between Pakistan & Russia lol all you can do is whine, just the way some Indian members are doing here right now, oh, & when you're in bed with the US, your Govt can hardly complain much with the Russians. Its all about business.

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## Windjammer

deckingraj said:


> *Off topic*...but think about it...how can we be pain in a$$ without having our presence here??
> 
> *On Topic*
> This talk of pain or no pain is rubbish. IMHO - The odds of this deal going through is remote because Russia has still occupied a very decent piece of pie in our defense budget. Logically speaking giving a strategic weapon to Pakistan thereby undermining our security will certainly not go well here. If we leave jingoism and look it from pure economics perspective this deal might not be good for Russia's interest, no



As i said, we may get it or we may not and from what i gather is that the media may have got it's Apples and Oranges mixed.
In any case, regardless of the outcome, as Russia did say, if India can buy from America, what can stop Russia from selling to any potential buyer..... specially after the MRCCA fiasco, would Russia or for that matter any other country place all eggs vin one basket.

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## jaydee

I think 


Beethoven said:


> OK the since a lot of members over here seem to favor the induction of Su-35 in the PAF let me offer my two cents too....see the first thing that goes against the Su series is its HUGE RCS....this point I think has been discussed in this forum with reference to the MKI....secondly the radar on board the Su-35 is a PESA...while PAF I think now a days is on the look out for aircraft that has an AESA...compare these stats with the J-10B...lower RCS because of the use of DSI bump....AESA radar on board as well as IRST which incidentally is present in the Su-35 as well...so concluding my argument I say if we had to go for another fighter J-10B would be a saner choice than the Su-35


SU 35 has lower RCS than SU 30. They have done improvements to it to lower RCS. AESA is being developed for SU 35 . So by the time Pakistan gets the delivery, it could already be armed with AESA.


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## Beethoven

jaydee said:


> SU 35 has lower RCS than SU 30. They have done improvements to it to lower RCS. AESA is being developed for SU 35 . So by the time Pakistan gets the delivery, it could already be armed with AESA.


Didn't know that...thanks for updating me mate...cheers


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## Nabil365

Indians think india is the best country.But look at them always buying weapons from america,russia and china 
Still dare to say india is a super power


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

40 Sukhoi 35 , would be great addition to Pakistani airforce , moderate increase and allows us to retire some old inventory


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## New World

Yaduveer said:


> In That case will cancel our deals with Russia as simple as that . Than we would watch from shores how much the sinking economy of Russia going to get help from Pakistan .


yes ditch Russian.. and we will see how 230+ Su-30, 80+ Mig-29, 150+ Mig-21, il-78,il-76 are falling from sky.. and we will see how Akulla, sindhogosh are touching the sea bed, and we will see how T-90 is going to be a metal block..

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## AtiF Malang

I respect my chinese bros but to be honest J11 are clones of Su family . I saw a short take off vid of Su 35 oh man !! This is amazing machine . 
People who are advocating Sola let me tell them we need teeth for eating not for showing . US of A is unreliable. Keeping a mix of USA Chinese and Russia hardware will keep the competition ON . Like we saw when Mi 35 were offered Uncle Sam was so quick to agree on Zulu . 
Su 35 is only second to F 22 
One day PAF have to change the mentility of single engine so why not Today ? 
Second thing is our fragile economy today our economy is in good shape so we should utilize the funds other wise noora and co will loot it and tomorrow when we will be low on cash Hindustan will purchase some 4.5 gen jets to put further pressure on us

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## Donatello

I have a feeling that Putin really wants to get back into Middle East.....and he is willing to offer Russian goodies to anyone willing to play their part...

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## untitled

For those of you who say that PAF can't operate multiengined aircraft they just have to look at examples like A5 F6 T37 C130 and SAAB among others

PAF does maintain and fly multiengined aircraft

But if all else fails then PIA's technicians can always lend a helping hand


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## monitor

How many times we have to the same kind of news .


Last Samuri said:


> IF PAF can part with $5 billion to buy 50 SU35 then why not.
> 
> BUT you wont get soft loans from Russia LIKE you did on the Thunders
> 
> OR grant AID LIKE DID ON F16
> 
> NO FREEBIE from Russia JUST HARD CASH




China or amreki give money not to buy others military stuff but to buy. Military hardware from donor country and in fact most of the donation goes back to donor. If Russia wish to sell their military hardware to Pakistan they can offer credit like they did offer to Bangladesh. We bought yak160 and mi-171 helicopter from Russia with Russian credit. Offering 2/3 billion dollar credit to buy su-35 won't be very difficult for Russia.


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## yesboss

The only thing that worries me about this deal is that if it somehow materializes . . . *if* . . . . . . a couple of Indian members on this forum might very well die out of heart attack (i meant butt hurt).

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## Basel

Last Samuri said:


> IF PAF can part with $5 billion to buy 50 SU35 then why not.
> 
> BUT you wont get soft loans from Russia LIKE you did on the Thunders
> 
> OR grant AID LIKE DID ON F16
> 
> NO FREEBIE from Russia JUST HARD CASH



China can be the banker in deals between Russia and Pakistan if required. Because its in China's strategic interest to make Pakistan strong economically and militarily.

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## SirHatesALot

I don't know the authenticity of this news but i hope our babus in govt don't go into usual panic mode.


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## Trisonics

*Congrats PAF* for acquiring the best version of SU-27 series. The mix of F16 and SU35 will be deadly that India had not anticipated. It will put India on the back foot for sure. Pakistan has also vastly replaced/replacing its obsolete fighters and India is taking decades to acquire or even induct new fighters. 

India had effectively reduced PAF as a defensive airforce but with the new SU35's that has changed!

On the positive side, this is a test for India's and hopefully our babus will think and act faster on our next purchase.

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## Bhuvan93

Donatello said:


> I have a feeling that Putin really wants to get back into Middle East.....and he is willing to offer Russian goodies to anyone willing to play their part...


Feelings in, logic out. 

More like Russia has been hit hard by its sanctions, hence the T50/PAKFA issues, and are looking to sell as much they can to recover costs.


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## Basel

Beethoven said:


> OK the since a lot of members over here seem to favor the induction of Su-35 in the PAF let me offer my two cents too....see the first thing that goes against the Su series is its HUGE RCS....this point I think has been discussed in this forum with reference to the MKI....secondly the radar on board the Su-35 is a PESA...while PAF I think now a days is on the look out for aircraft that has an AESA...compare these stats with the J-10B...lower RCS because of the use of DSI bump....AESA radar on board as well as IRST which incidentally is present in the Su-35 as well...so concluding my argument I say if we had to go for another fighter J-10B would be a saner choice than the Su-35



Su-35 class fighter jets are must have for PAF because they can defend themselves even with big RCS and can hit targets at standoff ranges with heavy fire power. IN will feel the real heat and may run for another platform may be Rafaels because Su-35s will be far superior what they have now and there CBG will become venerable against them as Su-35 can track ships up to 400kms so u can google how far they can hit ships with appropriate weapons.

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## Donatello

Trisonics said:


> *Congrats PAF* for acquiring the best version of SU-27 series. The mix of F16 and SU35 will be deadly that India had not anticipated. It will put India on the back foot for sure. Pakistan has also vastly replaced/replacing its obsolete fighters and India is taking decades to acquire or even induct new fighters.
> 
> India had effectively reduced PAF as a defensive airforce but with the new SU35's that has changed!
> 
> On the positive side, this is a test for India's and hopefully our babus will think and act faster on our next purchase.



No deal has been signed or confirmed. It is just speculation. SU35s would be expensive to procure and maintain. I want to know what Pakistan is offering in return, Putin does not make such decisions for only ordinary financial gains.


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## aliyusuf

Bhuvan93 said:


> Feelings in, logic out.
> 
> More like Russia has been hit hard by its sanctions, hence the T50/PAKFA issues, and are looking to sell as much they can to recover costs.



Its that and more. Russia also is seeing good potential in CPEC and the strategic importance of Gwadar. It too is interested.

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## My-Analogous

We must have these baby. 50 to 80 is good figure. THE BEAUTY AND A BEAST

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## Beethoven

Basel said:


> Su-35 class fighter jets are must have for PAF because they can defend themselves even with big RCS and can hit targets at standoff ranges with heavy fire power. IN will feel the real heat and may run for another platform may be Rafaels because Su-35s will be far superior what they have now and there CBG will become venerable against them as Su-35 can track ships up to 400kms so u can google how far they can hit ships with appropriate weapons.


I don't think if you have noticed this development or not but recenty the No 2 Squadron based in Minhas Karachi got equipped with Thunders and guess what....they were seen with C-802A AShM....so it seems like the Air force is going to be looking after the Navy's requirement for fighters for now....


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## Basel

Beethoven said:


> I don't think if you have noticed this development or not but recenty the No 2 Squadron based in Minhas Karachi got equipped with Thunders and guess what....they were seen with C-802A AShM....so it seems like the Air force is going to be looking after the Navy's requirement for fighters for now....



They are but they can't deliver what is required for PN even PN want protection for its fleet on surface & in air in open seas as far as "Gulf of Aden: where JF-17s cant operate freely and will need huge resources to be operational there, even then they will have not much fire power and will be vulnerable to SAMs & Mig-29Ks combo that is why Su-35 class is needed, PN is just one aspect of many due to which Su-35 class jet is needed as with CEPC things are changing fast.

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## Beast

Yaduveer said:


> It's up to Russia to decide whether they want India or Pakistan.
> 
> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> BrahMos cruise missile programme
> 
> 5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)
> 
> Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft
> _
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative.
> 
> T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India
> 
> Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)
> 
> INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme
> 
> Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)
> 
> US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29
> 
> Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)
> 
> Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)
> 
> The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force.
> _


Russia has no needs to decide. Impotent Indian are forced to tie down by Russian hardware. Western product are simply too expensive for India to mass equipped. Just look at the Rafale deal will tells you the answer plus the 5th gen fighter project.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected

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## Basel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected



Hope it become true.


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## Quwa

Subcontinental said:


> People dont understand that USSR was our Ally, Russia is not.
> we mostly have Buyer Seller Relationship with Russia.
> 
> OnTopic:
> Good for Pakistan


Excellent point. Today's Russia isn't the Russia of intellectuals, it's political mob men out to make money.


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## aliyusuf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected


Brother, pipe ke mazay lete lete source bhi bata dein, please!

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## Last Samuri

IM FRAID this is going to end with a big disappointment.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR THREAD PAF IS ASSESSING J31

PAF IS BUYING J10B X 50 PLANES

PAF is TAKING UP OPTION OF 18 MORE BLOCK 52.

PAF is talking to UAE re used MIRAGE2000-5

These topics are opened once a month

The reality is @ $80m each the SU35 is financially out of your reach.

AND IM SURE THIS NONSESNSE WILL END IN ONE WEEK

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## Last Samuri

Your more likely to see india buy the F22 RAPTOR than PAF buy the SU35

ITS A NONSENSE thread


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## shaheenmissile

Last Samuri said:


> IM FRAID this is going to end with a big disappointment.
> 
> JUST LOOK AT YOUR THREAD PAF IS ASSESSING J31
> 
> PAF IS BUYING J10B X 50 PLANES
> 
> PAF is TAKING UP OPTION OF 18 MORE BLOCK 52.
> 
> PAF is talking to UAE re used MIRAGE2000-5
> 
> These topics are opened once a month
> 
> The reality is @ $80m each the SU35 is financially out of your reach.
> 
> AND IM SURE THIS NONSESNSE WILL END IN ONE WEEK


so true. thats why we dont get excited until we actually see it.


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## shaheenmissile

Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India


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## cmpk1

Last Samuri said:


> IM FRAID this is going to end with a big disappointment.
> 
> JUST LOOK AT YOUR THREAD PAF IS ASSESSING J31
> 
> PAF IS BUYING J10B X 50 PLANES
> 
> PAF is TAKING UP OPTION OF 18 MORE BLOCK 52.
> 
> PAF is talking to UAE re used MIRAGE2000-5
> 
> These topics are opened once a month
> 
> The reality is @ $80m each the SU35 is financially out of your reach.
> 
> AND IM SURE THIS NONSESNSE WILL END IN ONE WEEK



you're right! just like we signed $5 billion deal for Chinese subs. we're that poor.

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## cmpk1

@Last Samuri ok troll, drink some water now.


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## Myth_buster_1

ice_man said:


> BHAI nooroun ko idhar maat laao.
> 
> Norray are good for making motorway.
> 
> this is purely an airforce decision


Just like noora gov


Last Samuri said:


> CMPK
> 
> How can spend $5 billion WHICH you don't have,.
> 
> STOP TALKING NONSENSE
> 
> PAK NAVY cant spend $5 billion in a decade
> 
> You have no money in the country YOU ARE ON THE BRINK continually
> 
> Buying second hand fighters
> IMF loans
> USA grant aid
> Fishing for Saudi aid
> 
> Who you kidding
> #
> ANNUALLY GROWTH RATE 3%



Its not your prob how we get Su-35 even if we have to eat grass...

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## Bhuvan93

cmpk1 said:


> you're right! just like we signed $5 billion deal for Chinese subs. we're that poor.


Line. Of. Credit.


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## Myth_buster_1

Last Samuri said:


> IM FRAID this is going to end with a big disappointment.
> 
> JUST LOOK AT YOUR THREAD PAF IS ASSESSING J31
> 
> PAF IS BUYING J10B X 50 PLANES
> 
> PAF is TAKING UP OPTION OF 18 MORE BLOCK 52.
> 
> PAF is talking to UAE re used MIRAGE2000-5
> 
> These topics are opened once a month
> 
> The reality is @ $80m each the SU35 is financially out of your reach.
> 
> AND IM SURE THIS NONSESNSE WILL END IN ONE WEEK



Just like your nonsense about 126 Rafails ended with only 30 or so...

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## Super Falcon

WishLivePak said:


> I think the su is dual engine. Didn't turkey offered us some dual engine for students?
> 
> 
> Why are we going for dual engine and Russian crafts? Focus on getting f16s, make jf better and start working on a 5th/6th gen fighter (they take 10-15 years) or spend money on drone which come out cheaper.


 Very stupid F 16 is single engine jet it has lot of limitations against 

SU 30
RAFALE 
MIG 29K
MIRAGE 2000
PAKFA

Alone F 16 and JF 17 cant defend pak becayse both are multirole jets and single engine at sea they are valunerable for sped

Thats why US never opted for single engine jet for navy

Dont put your focus on 3 decades old Fjghter jet

PAF retired A 5 and F 7 and mirage

Alone JF 17 cant fullfill roles of Air superirity

And 5 gen jeg needs more 15 years can we wait till than im sorry we cant with current indian attitude 

Yes again it was me who brokr the barrier of PAF limited mindset good atlease sense of humour prevails


SU 35 pose real threat to Rafale and iaf

With SU 35 paf can achiever air superirity in our airspace

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## cmpk1

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Just like your nonsense about 126 Rafails ended with only 30 or so...



even 30 look unlikely since the deal has been stalled.

btw are you Indians working as economists in Govt of Pakistan? Chill.

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## Inception-06

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Su-35 is perfect stop gap until PAF gets hands of 5th gen. F-16 can not handle all Mig-29k M2k (upgraded) MKI and now Rafael on its own and JF-17 is not in that league.
> 
> 
> Just because you dont see canards in Su-35 does not mean it is in same league as J-11.



J-11 or J-10 Not are equal stop gab ? We could get that for half price and double number ?

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## v9s

Yaduveer said:


> 1st Learn how to comprehend.
> 
> I said $200-250 billion of worth of deals that India-Russia is currently engaged .I have provided list of some of deals. I said Russia won't dare to ditch $200 deals for sake of couple of Helis and Su35s.
> 
> Ab Samajh Aaya ?



And neither will India drop "$200-$250 Billion" worth of deals because Russia decided to sell some helis and aircrafts to Pakistan. Afterall, there are no friends in International relations right? Only Business.


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## 09ee97

Should be taken with a pinch of salt. Ain't no way we got money or they got guts to sell their top of line to us just to have it used against their ally (India). Its funny how frequent we get orga*ms just by hearing news such as this. Time to allocate budget for Power infrastructure or more people would suffer than if we go to war with India.


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## Kakaspai

v9s said:


> And neither will India drop "$200-$250 Billion" worth of deals because Russia decided to sell some helis and aircrafts to Pakistan. Afterall, there are no friends in International relations right? Only Business.


Why dont they drop fgfa in which they have invested so much money


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## Viper 94

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Su-35 is perfect stop gap until PAF gets hands of 5th gen. F-16 can not handle all Mig-29k M2k (upgraded) MKI and now Rafael on its own and JF-17 is not in that league.
> 
> 
> Just because you dont see canards in Su-35 does not mean it is in same league as J-11.



actually F-16 and JF-17 are more than a match for mig-29s & mirage 2000s
however they will have a tough time countering su-30mki, rafaels (whenever that deal is completed) 
but i doubt that PAF will purchase su-35 since its a completely different platform and will require a completely new logistical structure besides indians will lose their shit if russia agrees to sell them 
PAF should save the resources for 5th gen fighters and air to air refulers for the f-16 
I would agree that PAF desperately need a dedicated air superiority fighter and acquiring a dedicated ground attack fighter won't hurt either since all the fighter jets in the PAF inventory are supersonic and can't loiter over a target area close to the ground


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## Adil Shahid

A Game changer in the region as Pakistan and Russia developing the relationship
Su 35 a good indication to make forward line more strong

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## MastanKhan

slapshot said:


> @MastanKhan Looks like PAF is following your threads



Hi,

Officially I will not make any comment on that---. But thank you.

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## Hephaestus

GURU DUTT said:


> we all know that very well but whats the point you intend to make and tagged me  lets be short/brief & precise


No points. You come acros as someone who knows what he's talkin' about. Thought you could shed some light on it. 
Precise enough??

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## Blue Marlin

Adil Shahid said:


> A Game changer in the region as Pakistan and Russia developing the relationship
> Su 35 a good indication to make forward line more strong


hello and welcome. yes good observation there Pakistan is following a more offensive doctrine as opposed to it's old defensive.


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## araz

Yaduveer said:


> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> _BrahMos cruise missile programme_
> _5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)_
> _Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)_
> _Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft_
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> _Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative._
> _T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India_
> _Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)_
> _INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme_
> _Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)_
> _US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29_
> _Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)_
> _Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)_
> _The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force._


It is not going to be one or the other. With defence deals drying up and countries increasingly looking at the changing regional dynamics The red bear has made an attempt at cornering a market in Pakistan. All that will happen is India will no longer be able to influence the Russians as stopping the defence work currently ongoing would be more harmful for India than for Russia. So the possibility is there.
From a logistic point of view the deal will only go through if the Russians/ other source provide soft loans, agree to depot level maintenance capability for PAF and agree to allow integration of weapons from other sources. This is still a big hurdle to go through. I would also need to see a PAF source acknowledging the talks to believe it.

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## Hurter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected



Are you serious? Do you think this deal will close on a positive note?


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## Donatello

araz said:


> It is not going to be one or the other. With defence deals drying up and countries increasingly looking at the changing regional dynamics The red bear has made an attempt at cornering a market in Pakistan. All that will happen is India will no longer be able to influence the Russians as stopping the defence work currently ongoing would be more harmful for India than for Russia. So the possibility is there.
> From a logistic point of view the deal will only go through if the Russians/ other source provide soft loans, agree to depot level maintenance capability for PAF and agree to allow integration of weapons from other sources. This is still a big hurdle to go through. I would also need to see a PAF source acknowledging the talks to believe it.



Yes, maintenance would be a big big issue, since it is a new plane and would require lots of spares to stock up, which we may not be able to procure on the 'black' market. However, i don't think India matters to Russia that much. If Putin wants to do something, he will do it. India or US, he doesn't give two flying fcuks.


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## Basel

blue marlin said:


> hello and welcome. yes good observation there Pakistan is following a more offensive doctrine as opposed to it's old defensive.



If Su-35 class jets are inducted in PAF in next 5 to 8 years then it means PA can still manage their offensive defense strategy to some extent in a war because PAF will be able to provide protection from IAF posed threat.

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## Great Sachin

Last 5 years, I am listening this...till date what did you buy from Russia


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## Quwa

I honestly hope I am wrong, but keep in mind that the statement still came from one source, Sputnik. We'll have to wait a few days to see what comes from this news, but I will do a new piece accounting for this as well as exploring some of the advantages and challenges of the Flanker in PAF.

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## cmpk1

Great Sachin said:


> Last 5 years, I am listening this...till date what did you buy from Russia



& we've been hearing about Rafael's for about a decade. are you guys flying those 120 something Rafael's?

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## 09ee97

cmpk1 said:


> & we've been hearing about Rafael's for about a decade. are you guys flying those 120 something Rafael's?


And when they have them, what will we have in our inventory to counter them apart from arguments? It will be a complete one side show.

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## Spectre

Pakistan should grab these planes ASAP if on offer and give all those Indians who yap about Pakistan not having enough money/resources a proverbial middle finger. Pakistan is way more important for Russia than India due to it's immense geo-strategic importance, vast untapped resources, deeper,sweeter,higher best friendship with China in addition to CPEC which is going to completely transform Pakistan.

It is good that Pakistan waited for so long before inducting a modern twin engine fighter jet, now Pakistan has an opportunity to get it's hand on a true beast which is going to have Rafales and SU-30 MKIs for breakfast and not even burp.
Doesn't matter how much they cost as it gives an unparalleled capacity to PAF in the subcontinent. Maintenance, spares, operating costs, availability and all the other pesky details can be worked out in leisure, any way Pakistanis are master of Jugad and resourceful innovators.

One in a lifetime opportunity to get Russian's on Pakistan's side and make new global axis of Russia -China - Pakistan

Regards

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## 09ee97

Spectre said:


> Pakistan should grab these planes ASAP if on offer and give all those Indians who yap about Pakistan not having enough money/resources a proverbial middle finger. Pakistan is way more important for Russia than India due to it's immense geo-strategic importance, vast untapped resources, deeper,sweeter,higher best friendship with China in addition to CPEC which is going to completely transform Pakistan.
> 
> It is good that Pakistan waited for so long before inducting a modern twin engine fighter jet, now Pakistan has an opportunity to get it's hand on a true beast which is going to have Rafales and SU-30 MKIs for breakfast and not even burp.
> Doesn't matter how much they cost as it gives a unparalleled capacity to PAF in the subcontinent. Maintenance all the other pesky details can be worked out in leisure, any way Pakistanis are master of Jugad and resourceful innovators.
> 
> One in a lifetime opportunity to get Russian's on Pakistan's side and make new global axis of Russia -China - Pakistan
> 
> Regards


Or we could focus on our economy first and then decide to procure something worthy may be after 4-5 years down the road?


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## Blue Marlin

*Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India*

*Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday.*







su-35 during armed flight tests



Russia, Pakistan Preparing for First Cultural Exchange Year
NIZHNY TAGIL (Russia), September 9 (Sputnik) — Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.


"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.

Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.

Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.


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## Spectre

09ee97 said:


> Or we could focus on our economy first and then decide to procure something worthy may be after 4-5 years down the road?



What economy? National Security comes first and foremost. Russians are not going to wait forever. 

Pakistanis are hardy souls who can make do with less electricity, schools, health-care but can never sacrifice their security and national integrity. India under Modi is just itching to hurt Pakistan and Pakistan has to make sure they think 10 times before causing any mischief like cold start. SU-35 would give Pakistan a true non nuclear deterrent. For that if Pakistan has to live in tough conditions for 4/5 years then no biggie.

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## Secret Service

oh boy.. Su 35 sounds unbelievable. but if it happens, i think one squadron of su35 will enough for PAF due to its high cost and maintenance. no doubt it will be a big boost for air force...

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## jaydee

Great Sachin said:


> Last 5 years, I am listening this...till date what did you buy from Russia


Come out of cave...
JF 17 uses Russian engines.Recently signed deal on MI 35.

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## cmpk1

same thing happened with MI-35. started with "sources", then few officials had something to say, then deal was signed. These defence deals take a lot of time. I'm sure we're going to hear some more news regarding Su35 in coming months.

And India will be infuriated, if Russia indeed offers us SU35, but then they just can't shun away Russia, they depend on them. decades of Russian armaments can't just be taken off just because they didn't like Russian policy. 

Russians have been put under pressure by the US/EU, yet India has been dealing with the latter & didn't really care about Russia. Russians are now going to show them who is the daddy, all this recent developments are in favour of Pakistan i.e. The recent cold relationship between Russia-India, CPEC, Pakistan as a front line state on WoT etc. Look at the bigger picture, things are changing fast! & we got to thank Gen Musharaf, he started these negotiations, took us a decade to break the ice between Pakistan & Russia.


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## Donatello

Another issue would be to integrate them with our AEWACs....and include a 'heavy' into the learning curriculum of PAF


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## aliyusuf

Mark Sien said:


> I honestly hope I am wrong, but keep in mind that the statement still came from one source, Sputnik. We'll have to wait a few days to see what comes from this news, but I will do a new piece accounting for this as well as exploring some of the advantages and challenges of the Flanker in PAF.



That is the first that came to my mind as well and I looked it up ...

Sputnik is an international multimedia news service launched in November 10 2014 by Rossiya Sevodnya ... a Russian Government news agency that replaced "RIA Novosti" and "Voice of Russia" on the international front in December 9 2013.

Doesn't seem to be a flaky source.

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## Secret Service

Great Sachin said:


> Last 5 years, I am listening this...till date what did you buy from Russia



engines...


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## Syed Hussain

I have stopped getting excited about such pieces of news. Because generally it goes like "Pakistan has shown interest in SU-35"...after 2 years, Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35... after more 2 years, Pakistan has decided to go further with the deal...after 2 more years, tan tanan Pakistan has decided to buy 4 units of SU-35 and it could include 2 more units if 'satisfied...deliveries will begin in 4 years...!
And that's simply mind craping.

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## cmpk1

09ee97 said:


> And when they have them, what will we have in our inventory to counter them apart from arguments? It will be a complete one side show.



They've got SU30, & in BIG numbers. anything happened? 

takes years to get the delivery of new jets, & deal for 36 Rafael's still hasn't been signed.


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> Another issue would be to integrate them with our AEWACs....and include a 'heavy' into the learning curriculum of PAF



What many don't get is PAF was familiarizing with Flankers since long with PLAAF even deputed very experienced F-16 pilots there on Su-30s of PLAAF and there was a reason that J-11 were sent to Pakistan for exercise.

If purchased then PAF can ask for open architecture systems for integration of other weapons systems and with Chinese AWACS in its inventory.

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## Hurter

waz said:


> I rubbished this SU-35 nonsense a while back and deleted the previous ludicrous thread.



Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM


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## Metanoia

@Spectre Good sarcasm lol

When the Indians announced the tender for their MMRCA the US pitched in some advance F-16 if my memory serves me right...which the Indians did not even consider. There was a reason for it and it will be the same reason why Pakistan will NOT opt for anything based on SU-27 platform regardless of them offered by the Russians.

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## Spectre

Metanoia said:


> @Spectre Good sarcasm lol
> 
> When the Indians announced the tender for their MMRCA the US pitched in some advance F-16 if my memory serves me right...which the Indians did not even consider. There was a reason for it and it will be the same reason why Pakistan will NOT opt for anything based on SU-27 platform regardless of them offered by the Russians.



Finally someone got it. Lol, I even got a few likes.

But yeah you are right, for now deals would be on a smaller scale - testing the waters phase. SU-35 is too soon, but as India moves away from Russia you would see Russia moving towards Pakistan - just how the game is played.

Though you have to just love how many posters who were talking crap about Russian tech are treating the same as World's finest and vice versa

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## cmpk1

Syed Hussain said:


> I have stopped getting excited about such pieces of news. Because generally it goes like "Pakistan has shown interest in SU-35"...after 2 years, Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35... after more 2 years, Pakistan has decided to go further with the deal...after 2 more years, tan tanan Pakistan has decided to buy 4 units of SU-35 and it could include 2 more units if 'satisfied...deliveries will begin in 4 years...!
> And that's simply mind craping.



took us years to sign the deal for 8 Submarines. you're not buying a candy here.

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## aliyusuf

Donatello said:


> Another issue would be to integrate them with our AEWACs....and include a 'heavy' into the learning curriculum of PAF



Sir, if what is written on the Sukhoi site is true (on which I have my serious doubts) ... then Irbis-E (the fire control radar on board the Su-35S (the variant under discussion) ... can detect a 3m2 (small fighter) target at 400km. That is greater range than any AEW/AWAC based radar that we have.


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## Johny D

its underway or underwear? seems some confusion with regard to S-35...First, Pak cant afford to induct completely new system like Sukhoi, huge infra, training and maintenance cost.. Second, Pak cant afford S-35!


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## Myth_buster_1

Viper 94 said:


> actually F-16 and JF-17 are more than a match for mig-29s & mirage 2000s
> however they will have a tough time countering su-30mki, rafaels (whenever that deal is completed)
> but i doubt that PAF will purchase su-35 since its a completely different platform and will require a completely new logistical structure besides indians will lose their shit if russia agrees to sell them
> PAF should save the resources for 5th gen fighters and air to air refulers for the f-16
> I would agree that PAF desperately need a dedicated air superiority fighter and acquiring a dedicated ground attack fighter won't hurt either since all the fighter jets in the PAF inventory are supersonic and can't loiter over a target area close to the ground



Same was said about MI-35


aliyusuf said:


> Sir, if what is written on the Sukhoi site is true (on which I have my serious doubts) ... then Irbis-E (the fire control radar on board the Su-35S (the variant under discussion) ... can detect a 3m2 (small fighter) target at 400km. That is greater range than any AEW/AWAC based radar that we have.



1970s frigates and destroyers had longer radar range then most of todays frigates and destroyers... IMO su-35 rager at peek range can easily be fooled then lets say ERIEYE's radar.

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## Secret Service

JD_In said:


> its underway or underwear? seems some confusion with regard to S-35...First, Pak cant afford to induct completely new system like Sukhoi, huge infra, training and maintenance cost.. Second, Pak cant afford S-35!


 we are not going to buy it.. dont worry

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## Assault Rifle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641995553425874944Asad Hashim is Reuters Correspondent in Pakistan and was previously with Al Jazeera.

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## Areesh

Now @Assault Rifle can comfortably sleep tight. Thank You Asad Hashim for helping this bharati.

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## Spectre

Areesh said:


> Now @Assault Rifle can comfortably sleep tight. Thank You Asad Hashim for helping this bharati.



Not him alone, even I had PDF PTSD. Finally can give my thumbs a rest and stop hyper-ventilating.

Though you gotta feel sorry for so many newly converted to SU-35 fanbois

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## Secret Service

but he is not the correspondent of government or PAF ....anyway have a good sleep..

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## gau8av




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## Myth_buster_1

Metanoia said:


> @Spectre Good sarcasm lol
> 
> When the Indians announced the tender for their MMRCA the US pitched in some advance F-16 if my memory serves me right...which the Indians did not even consider. There was a reason for it and it will be the same reason why Pakistan will NOT opt for anything based on SU-27 platform regardless of them offered by the Russians.



Egypt Jordan opt for F-16 after ISrael and Greece opt for F-16 after Turkey.... So why cant PAF opt for Su-35 which has different tech then MKI???

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## Areesh

Spectre said:


> Not him alone, even I had PDF PTSD. Finally can give my thumbs a rest and stop hyper-ventilating.
> 
> Though you gotta feel sorry for so many quickly converted to SU-35 fanbois



Lol even I think PAF won't go for SU35. But the way this bharati @Assault Rifle created a thread based on a tweet. Shows how frustrated bharatis like this one are with those news articles.

First decline in terror incidents in Pakistan and then this tweet. I can certainly see chaddi of this terror supporter bharati @Assault Rifle getting geeli and peeli at the same time.

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## Kompromat

I would take this as a confirmation that PAF is actually negotiating.

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## Secret Service

gau8av said:


>


it shows how much your butt is hurting... by only listening the news, its not even confirmed by air force..

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## Donatello

Of course PAF would deny, 
However, i am sure the Russian FM had a slip of the tongue for good or bad.

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## gau8av

secretservice said:


> it shows how much your butt is hurting... by only listening the news, its not even confirmed by air force..


yup, I've already said it'll be a huge blow to my team if that happens.

but now my *** isn't on fire anymore


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## madmusti

Horus said:


> I would take this as a confirmation that PAF is actually negotiating.



I think PAF would take some Super Hornets.


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## Areesh

gau8av said:


> yup, I've already said it'll be a huge blow to my team if that happens.
> 
> but now my *** isn't on fire anymore



We would post another article about SU 35 procurement in next few days and would put your chaddi again on fire. Don't worry. It is all very easy and simple.

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## Kompromat

Not a single Pakistani egg will go in the American basket now.



madmusti said:


> I think PAF would take some Super Hornets.

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## nForce

madmusti said:


> I think PAF would take some Super Hornets.



Can you get some caramel popcorn too, while you are at it ? 

@ topic Su-35 looks awesome. Too bad it's purpose is to kill people.


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## gau8av

Areesh said:


> We would post another article about SU 35 procurement in next few days and would put your chaddi again on fire. Don't worry. It is all very easy and simple.


you'll get lionel messi to play for one of your college teams before you get a flanker


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## Areesh

gau8av said:


> you'll get lionel messi to play for one of your college teams before you get a flanker



I would prefer Tendulkar to play Basketball then.

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## Hindustani78

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
Last Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2015 - 23:54
New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.

Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

"Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.

"This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.

"As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other," it added. 

PTI

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## VelocuR

Closed thread.

People are fooled to thank posts in OP. Pakistan is not going to get Su-35, too much hypers and rumors.

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## Darth Vader

Horus said:


> I would take this as a confirmation that PAF is actually negotiating.


I dont See any reason why Pakistan is Going for f16 , thunder , j 31 , j 10b , Some western jet and also Russian jet It will be Idiotic to keep so many different platforms for a cash strapped air force

in next 5 year i Only see F16 , Thunder , And Work on Some Projects After that J 31 , TAI TFX Depending on the price and performance For Higher end Thunder and Viper Are good at medium and Low end


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## Secret Service

VelocuR said:


> Closed thread.
> 
> People are fooled to thank posts in OP. Pakistan is not going to get Su-35, too much hypers and rumors.

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## Last Samuri

Can we stop wasting time on this nonsense now

concentrate on upgrading the thunders for now and upgrading those used Jordanian falcons

be realistic in your threads to keep the forum alive lets leave the fantasy stuff boys

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## gau8av

Areesh said:


> I would prefer Tendulkar to play Basketball then.


do it ! 







all through his career he saw it as big as a basketball anyway, eh ?


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## SipahSalar

Horus said:


> I would take this as a confirmation that PAF is actually negotiating.


You know what they say? Don't believe anything until the government denies it.

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## Muhammad Omar

Hahahahahaha Chalo ab Denies aa rhy hain mtlb waqai kuch pak rha hai...

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## Kompromat

PAF has a capability gap which even J-31 can't fulfill.



Darth Vader said:


> I dont See any reason why Pakistan is Going for f16 , thunder , j 31 , j 10b , Some western jet and also Russian jet It will be Idiotic to keep so many different platforms for a cash strapped air force
> 
> in next 5 year i Only see F16 , Thunder , And Work on Some Projects After that J 31 , TAI TFX Depending on the price and performance For Higher end Thunder and Viper Are good at medium and Low end

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## VelocuR

secretservice said:


>



Are we going to get Su-35? We both know, it is not going to happen.

I would love to have it but high costs, high maintenances and vice versa. Most importantly Pakistan's economy should achieve first milestone to $1 Trillion (Nominal).


*Russia agrees to sell Pakistan four MI-35 attack helicopters*

August 30, 2015,

*Moscow:* The contract on the delivery of four Russian Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan could be expanded, Sputnik International reported.

*Russian Foreign Ministry's Second Asia Department Zamir Kabulov said it all depends on money. Pakistan has stated that it has the financial means for 10-12 helicopters of this type, but negotiations are ongoing, he added.*

Sputnik International quoting Zamir Kabulov said Moscow and Islamabad are discussing possible supplies of Russian defensive weapons to Pakistan.

"Pakistan has an interest in other Russian weapon systems. Negotiations are underway. We are talking about defensive systems," Kabulov said.

In March, President Mamnoon Hussain announced Islamabad's intention to expand military-technical commerce with Russia with the purchase of Mi-35 gunships.

In August, a contract for four Mi-35M transport and attackhelicopters was signed by Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and Pakistan's Ministry of Defense, according to a spokesperson for the Russian Embassy in Islamabad.

The Mi-35M is an upgraded export version of the Mi-24V multipurpose assault helicopter, developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant.








The Su-35's price is estimated between *$65-85 million*, Pakistan always goes to minimum under *$30 millions* per jet.

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## Kompromat

hahahahah 



SipahSalar said:


> You know what they say? Don't believe anything until the government denies it.

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## gau8av

Muhammad Omar said:


> Hahahahahaha Chalo ab Denies aa rhy hain mtlb waqai kuch pak rha hai...


wet dreams ki khichdi


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## SpArK

Expected 3-4 days of drama and chest thumping in forum.

Disappointing.

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## Indika

Pakistan can buy whichever equipment from where ever they want, its their prerogative. Age of military arms race is over its the one who has economic muscle who will progress. Unlike US where most of the military equipment were near freebies, russia requires hard cash. 

India is more interested in dragging pakistan down the arms race lane which they cannot keep up with. Next we will hear pakistan building nuke submarine,air craft carrier...blah blah. Not only to buy but even to maintain them requires lot of expenditure. Finally are they going to use it? nah they are just show pieces which will be never used unless there is a war.

Ever wondered why india keeps on dragging these defence contracts ?


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## Yaduveer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/642044092600291328
Le lo Su35

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## Darth Vader

Horus said:


> PAF has a capability gap which even J-31 can't fulfill.


that depend on who is the aggressor , what are they using , 
Pakistan Cant Afford Any Current Western Jets In Big Numbers , Cant Keep Hopes On Turkish bird as it will take minimum of 10 to 15 years , Going For Su 35 Will Be The Biggest Thing Pak Can do to piss off america but They can try to give some goodies which can stop pak from jumping on the other side , 
Possible is way is Make Thunder a capable Bird with Aesa and other EW , some changes in airframe and its material so it can hold its end against modern capable Birds , Add Few Squads of Viper and Valla It PAF can be a real decent potent force which will give Paf capability to go deep in enemy area on whole new level , j 31 Can be customised to our Need As same is being done With Thunder platform , We wont See thunder block 10 or 15 to The Natural process is Pakistan after Filling the Gap Will look at a new platform in to invest further for future


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## Kompromat

Not really, there are some static threats, J-31 can't take care off, especially in Maritime domain.




Darth Vader said:


> that depend on who is the aggressor , what are they using ,
> Pakistan Cant Afford Any Current Western Jets In Big Numbers , Cant Keep Hopes On Turkish bird as it will take minimum of 10 to 15 years , Going For Su 35 Will Be The Biggest Thing Pak Can do to piss off america but They can try to give some goodies which can stop pak from jumping on the other side ,
> Possible is way is Make Thunder a capable Bird with Aesa and other EW , some changes in airframe and its material so it can hold its end against modern capable Birds , Add Few Squads of Viper and Valla It PAF can be a real decent potent force which will give Paf capability to go deep in enemy area on whole new level , j 31 Can be customised to our Need As same is being done With Thunder platform , We wont See thunder block 10 or 15 to The Natural process is Pakistan after Filling the Gap Will look at a new platform in to invest further for future

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## MastanKhan

Great Sachin said:


> Last 5 years, I am listening this...till date what did you buy from Russia



Hi Great Sachin,

If there is a comparison---then things are easier to understand. Once explained in ' context to ' then people can make an educated analysis.

It has taken you over 8 years to do a deal with a known supplier and still no sign of the product and not even a signature to start the ball rolling----.

And if in 5 years we have already placed 1 order of choppers and maybe coming soon for aircraft----that means that we are ahead of as things done in the area of interest.

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## war&peace

Areesh said:


> Now @Assault Rifle can comfortably sleep tight. Thank You Asad Hashim for helping this bharati.


Or it could be another conspiracy by Asad Hashim to create a fog and lull over-hysteric indians. By the way, this is not so comforting if you take into account the statement by Air Chief (AM) Amanullah that PAF is looking for a true 5th generation aircraft either from east or the west. SU-35 4.5++ generation. The motive behind this that to raise 1-2 squadrons of 5th gen aircrafts while keep advancing JF-17 to 4.5 and 4.5++ levels.


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## Rasengan

One important aspect of this announcement is the notion that Pakistan and Russia are becoming closer in defense, energy and infrastructure deals. This outcome was virtually impossible over a decade ago, however things are changing drastically where both our countries can work together for mutual cooperation. Pakistan will not purchase these fighter jets due to its logistical nightmare and costs, however in reference to diplomacy this is an important victory for Pakistan.


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## Darth Vader

Horus said:


> Not really, there are some static threats, J-31 can't take care off, especially in Maritime domain.


Lets just Wait and see what Becomes of J31 , Just For Maritime Thunder is the Bird for that purpose


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## MilSpec

Horus said:


> Not a single Pakistani egg will go in the American basket now.


lol... your basket itself is American...



Horus said:


> I would take this as a confirmation that PAF is actually negotiating.


I would agree,,, when your Idaare mentions that they are not involved in "some" activity.... it should be construed that they are....

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## forcetrip

SpArK said:


> Expected 3-4 days of drama and chest thumping in forum.
> 
> Disappointing.



Beats the 8 year roller coaster ride of some tenders. This statement was given by the Russian FM.

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## Metanoia

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Egypt Jordan opt for F-16 after ISrael and Greece opt for F-16 after Turkey.... So why cant PAF opt for Su-35 which has different tech then MKI???



Different situations and scenarios. Egypt and Jordan got their F-16s only after they were taught a lesson and defeated in three wars against the Israelis which forced to come to terms with the reality. Everyone knows they won't dare use them to attack and initiate war with Israel. There are no hostilities amongst Israel, Egypt and Jordan and the Egyptian/Jordanian F-16s are for their self defense. 

Turkey and Greek are both part of NATO. The Greco-Turkish war took place in 1919-1922...there is absolutely no imminent threat of war or conflict between Turkey and Greece. 

All the countries you mentioned have completely different perceived threats as compared to Pakistan.



Spectre said:


> Finally someone got it. Lol, I even got a few likes.
> 
> But yeah you are right, for now deals would be on a smaller scale - testing the waters phase. SU-35 is too soon, but as India moves away from Russia you would see Russia moving towards Pakistan - just how the game is played.
> 
> Though you have to just love how many posters who were talking crap about Russian tech are treating the same as World's finest and vice versa



I know...yesterday it was a donkey and today it is a noble steed lol

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## Metanoia

MilSpec said:


> I would agree,,, when your Idaare mentions that they are not involved in "some" activity.... it should be construed that they are....



Throwing stones wrapped in velvet eh?


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## aamerjamal

VelocuR said:


> The Su-35's price is estimated between *$65-85 million*, Pakistan always goes to minimum under *$30 millions* per jet.


So by this means, Block 52 are a 30 Million per plane?
Even if we dont by SU35 but a need for Long Range Air Superiority Fighter is pretty Imminent.

To all these Think Tanks:
How can you Protect Karachi and Gwader Port if India is trying to Block it?

for me the cheapest Solution is Getting More and More AIP Subs and Planes like SU35, instead of increasing Surface Fleet....

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## انگریز

The news appeared on Sputnik which is a reputable russian news source. I rather beleive sputnik than a tweet from some less knows journalist


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## Gandhi follower

Some former indian diplomat suggested to bring the Pakistan in arms race... I think it is working .

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## MilSpec

Metanoia said:


> Throwing stones wrapped in velvet eh?


thodi khichai to banta hain dosto mein.

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## waz

Junaid B said:


> Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM



Well when it happens we shall talk. But thanks for the link.


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## Reverse Thinker

Su35 vs Rafael which has more range, more powerful radar,more weapon load, more maneuverable, and max speed any one can compare it here...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Reference:
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Sub Reference:
Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India






NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.





The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Reference:
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Sub Reference:
Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India





NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the* delivery of Sukhoi Su-35* fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.

The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."


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## airmarshal

Who is Asad Hashim and why his tweet is so important?



eyeswideshut said:


> Pakistan can buy whichever equipment from where ever they want, its their prerogative. Age of military arms race is over its the one who has economic muscle who will progress. Unlike US where most of the military equipment were near freebies, russia requires hard cash.
> 
> India is more interested in dragging pakistan down the arms race lane which they cannot keep up with. Next we will hear pakistan building nuke submarine,air craft carrier...blah blah. Not only to buy but even to maintain them requires lot of expenditure. Finally are they going to use it? nah they are just show pieces which will be never used unless there is a war.
> 
> Ever wondered why india keeps on dragging these defence contracts ?



Ha ha ha! Pakistan has played smart in this race. It has invested money in stand off missile, ballistic missiles, indigenous manufacture of aircraft and tanks and now that is paying dividends. We dont need to buy a weapon for which we negotiate for 10 years. We simply build it.


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## Muhammad Omar

The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."


It's causing Burn in real......

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## AtiF Malang

First of all why indian are always pissed with Pak getting any hardware ? 
Pak never cried on Su 30 maki Rafael etc acquisition reports . 
Secondly PAF is keeping IAF in all is well mode . The day PAF will announce Pakistan recieved a squardon of Su 35 that day chaddi gelli peeli sab hoge

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## Indika

airmarshal said:


> We dont need to buy a weapon for which we negotiate for 10 years. We simply build it.


Does pakistan have enough money to even draw the arms manufacturers attention let alone negotiate? India negotiates bcos it is in stronger position, if the manufacturer does not want to sell they can walkaway.

build it ? you mean pakistan assembles and paints green color. If pakistan buys russian weapons they can get it fixed in india.


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## AtiF Malang

After india's Mother of all the military deals death please get some moral value and stop talking big . 
hahaha from 126 to 36 to 0 . 
Pakistan doesn't talk like stupid people who get wealthier in recent days aka No Doltiya 
Pakistan purchases and after that world comes to know what we purchased . 
In sha Allah in futur after Russia France is also going not to trust india 



eyeswideshut said:


> Does pakistan have enough money to even draw the arms manufacturers attention let alone negotiate? India negotiates bcos it is in stronger position, if the manufacturer does not want to sell they can walkaway.
> 
> build it ? you mean pakistan assembles and paints green color. If pakistan buys russian weapons they can get it fixed in india.


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## batmannow

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected


Source friend ?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi Great Sachin,
> 
> If there is a comparison---then things are easier to understand. Once explained in ' context to ' then people can make an educated analysis.
> 
> It has taken you over 8 years to do a deal with a known supplier and still no sign of the product and not even a signature to start the ball rolling----.
> 
> And if in 5 years we have already placed 1 order of choppers and maybe coming soon for aircraft----that means that we are ahead of as things done in the area of interest.


Great mastan khan sir ,
Problem with Indian posters is that they still lives in the era of Soviet Russia which was betrayed by Indian govts at that time , I mean economicly ?
They can't imagine any deal ,even for a pencil between Pakistan & Russia China the biggest investor in.both Pakistan & in Russia is pulling the strings behind the curtains for the new world economic order , by these kind of talked & well discussed military deals are part of mutual defence strategy .
With that said , SU 35 not only bring a blow to over defined Indian military might but also bring a cold end to a cold start mentality , which will be best for all in the region ?

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## AtiF Malang

Let the Indians dream 
We will get Su 35 mark my words 
In 1965 PAF won because PAF was aggressive then . 
If you are defensiveyou stopped 95 % attacks but what about the remaining 5 % . May be the enemys 5 % success air raids hit our vital locations . 
The best strategy is to take the war to enemy's air space

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think in order to be competitive , one has to upgrade the planes at certain moments our JF17 thunder program is going smoothly however , we need to retire Mirages


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## AtiF Malang

Yes but many people thinks JF17 cannot fullfil Mirages role


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## Yeti

Muhammad Omar said:


> *The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner* and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> 
> It's causing Burn in real......



Sorry to burst the bubble but he never said that.

There was some language miscommunication, he said Pakistan was a close partner of Russia's but not closest as this would imply Pakistan is Russia's best ally and partner which is just absurd.

Russia will sell to anyone who has cash but they can not upset India too much as we have a bigger defence budget and they are not stupid to jeopardise it.

Russia really needs hard $$ cash right now, it's a good time to do energy/defence deals like we did last week.

Rosneft Said to Sell Vankor Oil Stake to ONGC for $1.27 Billion - Bloomberg Business


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## HAIDER

Its time for India to consider F35 offer.....


----------



## Viper0011.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the* delivery of Sukhoi Su-35* fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.



I've said it many times that Russia is going to Pakistan with full package, there is no India or Indian influence to stop it. Similarly, same for goes for the US, the UK, the French and all. They've learned from India that there is no loyalty, its pure business. Well, the business now includes an upcoming economy and futures top 15th most powerful country on the map, called Pakistan. All these big powers will now deal with Pakistan on her own basis. India can kick dust, scream, cry or jump up and down, it doesn't matter. The relationship has been de-hyphenated since last year!!!



WishLivePak said:


> US is already working on 6th gen. I heard major component is it not needing a pilot always. Could be wrong..



You probably heard it from me as I've written about it a few times already, including yesterday and you are right, the work on the Sixth gen fighter and future Stealth advance B3 Bomber has also started. The flying terminator is coming......

I'd imagine by 2020 we'd be seeing prototypes and by 2025, flight testing and production would probably start.



AtiF Malang said:


> Yes but many people thinks JF17 cannot fullfil Mirages role



Why is that? Mirage carries one Exocet. The JFT can carry two anti-ship missiles and even two BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (when more powerful engine is added). Currently is can carry 2 anti-ship and one BVR or two WVR missiles.

For Pakistan's coastal defense, you can fly the JFT on one fuel tank. If you get out by 50 KM from Karachi's short line, your anti-ships can lock on a target over 300 KM's away from Karachi. I think that's a huge area the JFT can cover. Ideally, you should have J-11D in numbers but SU-35 is also a great choice. I hope they get these in 60-80, but let's see.

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## batmannow

Enjoy the show pls !
There was a news that MOODI JEE is sleep less since he got the news that Russia is ready to sell the SU 35 to Pakistan ?
Wet pajamas !lolzz



Viper0011. said:


> I've said it many times that Russia is going to Pakistan with full package, there is no India or Indian influence to stop it. Similarly, same for goes for the US, the UK, the French and all. They've learned from India that there is no loyalty, its pure business. Well, the business now includes an upcoming economy and futures top 15th most powerful country on the map, called Pakistan. All these big powers will now deal with Pakistan on her own basis. India can kick dust, scream, cry or jump up and down, it doesn't matter. The relationship has been de-hyphenated since last year!!!
> 
> 
> 
> You probably heard it from me as I've written about it a few times already, including yesterday and you are right, the work on the Sixth gen fighter and future Stealth advance B3 Bomber has also started. The flying terminator is coming......
> 
> I'd imagine by 2020 we'd be seeing prototypes and by 2025, flight testing and production would probably start.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that? Mirage carries one Exocet. The JFT can carry two anti-ship missiles and even two BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (when more powerful engine is added). Currently is can carry 2 anti-ship and one BVR or two WVR missiles.
> 
> For Pakistan's coastal defense, you can fly the JFT on one fuel tank. If you get out by 50 KM from Karachi's short line, your anti-ships can lock on a target over 300 KM's away from Karachi. I think that's a huge area the JFT can cover. Ideally, you should have J-11D in numbers but SU-35 is also a great choice. I hope they get these in 60-80, but let's see.


Any future conflict between India & Pakistan won't be just between us & them ?
It will escalate I'm sure about it , so then if we had a platform like SU-35 at our hands we , can see all the dadies in their beds , & can take care of them , before they even wake up from their dam dreams ?
Its a safe & great investment , which can carry us more 30 years & so on ?

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## somebozo

Operational requirements for PAF are changing...SU35 is super maneuverable..something the F16 do not have...



cmpk1 said:


> first off, good news! Gives PAF more options!
> 
> secondly, you can't just say these are just "rumours", today's news isn't coming from a "source", it is directly coming from the deputy FM!
> 
> third; India will be sweating on this news & the fact that Moscow is coming closer to Islamabad
> 
> fourth; I don't think money will be an issue as our economy is getting better, & such deals are not done on up front cash basis lol people with zero economic background amuse me, specially these Indian kids  These are long term defence deals! soft loans!
> 
> Now why India must be really worried? I've already said on PDF that Russia will become an important ally of Pakistan! why? Can India give access, to Russia, to warm waters? NO. Russia, & other central Asian states, will gain more from Pakistan! energy pipelines to India will go through Pakistan  then these countries will have access to Gawadar. It's about business, not friendship



It is the CPEC effect...after the physical CPEC (port and land transport) will be the financial CPEC..a banking sector independent of Europe and USA control..cruicial for growing economies like China and Russia to bypass future sanctions...



batmannow said:


> Source friend ?
> 
> 
> Great mastan khan sir ,
> Problem with Indian posters is that they still lives in the era of Soviet Russia which was betrayed by Indian govts at that time , I mean economicly ?
> They can't imagine any deal ,even for a pencil between Pakistan & Russia China the biggest investor in.both Pakistan & in Russia is pulling the strings behind the curtains for the new world economic order , by these kind of talked & well discussed military deals are part of mutual defence strategy .
> With that said , SU 35 not only bring a blow to over defined Indian military might but also bring a cold end to a cold start mentality , which will be best for all in the region ?



Russian economy is badly dependent on exports to Europe and is always at risk of hit by sanctions..CPEC open a new route of trade to Middle East..in a shorter distance with the Russian access to warm waters..it is no longer CPEC but an international gaint having UK, Khazakistan, Russia, China and soon Iran joining in to..the only people jealous are..Arabs and Indians...CPEC will be a global transformation of historical scale affecting economic condition of three billion people...it will also follow with an independent financial system to bypass future sanctions threat..international financial system has become a weapon...and countries like Russia, Iran and China deeply understand that...

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## Viper0011.

batmannow said:


> Enjoy the show pls



This is a feel good video, the AWACS and the EFT's were getting tracked  but they didn't fire first? EFT can use AWACSs data link and fire well beyond 100 miles away, with MBDA Meteors and Mica combination. Its one of the best out there.

Similarly, the ship they showed, couldn't detect the incoming jets from like 300 miles away? Had no ship defense system, CIWS or anything else? What happened to the outer layer of AD? I am assuming the Russians tried to show a NATO ship as always but there is a combat air-cover that extends out to 300 miles. Not to mention in a CBG, there are over 35 ships with each one having multiple high power radars. So there should've been a volley of missiles fired at the SU, in this video, the SU's almost come head on with the ship, fire their munitions and right before their munitions hit, the ships fires two missiles. That's lame, what Navy was it? It wasn't NATO or the USN for sure...the Chinese or the Indian or the Bangladesh navy??


----------



## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> EFT can use AWACSs data link and fire well beyond 100 miles away, with Meteors and MBDA combination. Its one of the best out there.



MBDA is a company dude, that makes Meteor....

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## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> MBDA is a company dude, that makes Meteor....



Oh really? I thought Pratt and Whitney made Meteors while Chengdu made Mica's.....No?? Joking, I corrected it. It was your Indian friend Sri who doesn't get everything and messes up words. I really need to not use IPad for posting crap that people read. Thanks for letting me know though.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Ghans kha geya hai keya? 250 billion dollar? 126 Rafael for 10 billion dollars and 18 SU35 for 250?
Baneay ka hisab bneya hee janay LOL 



Yaduveer said:


> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> _BrahMos cruise missile programme_
> _5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)_
> _Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)_
> _Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft_
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> _Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative._
> _T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India_
> _Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)_
> _INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme_
> _Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)_
> _US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29_
> _Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)_
> _Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)_
> _The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force._


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## Adecypher

Just to give a visual flavor to this thread...


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## MAB

I'm not sure why people are getting excited, the sukhois might have been offered but there is no way Pakistan is getting these. People are celebrating like the planes just got delivered.

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## razgriz19

I seriously doubt that Russia would give us Su-35. They don't want to jeopardize relations with India. 
Our relationship hasn't reached that level of trust yet


----------



## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> This is a feel good video, the AWACS and the EFT's were getting tracked  but they didn't fire first? EFT can use AWACSs data link and fire well beyond 100 miles away, with MBDA Meteors and Mica combination. Its one of the best out there.
> 
> Similarly, the ship they showed, couldn't detect the incoming jets from like 300 miles away? Had no ship defense system, CIWS or anything else? What happened to the outer layer of AD? I am assuming the Russians tried to show a NATO ship as always but there is a combat air-cover that extends out to 300 miles. Not to mention in a CBG, there are over 35 ships with each one having multiple high power radars. So there should've been a volley of missiles fired at the SU, in this video, the SU's almost come head on with the ship, fire their munitions and right before their munitions hit, the ships fires two missiles. That's lame, what Navy was it? It wasn't NATO or the USN for sure...the Chinese or the Indian or the Bangladesh navy??




Hi,

Nawaz is going to the U S shortly----maybe the U S might have something to offer to Pakistan to keep them away from Russia.


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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nawaz is going to the U S shortly----maybe the U S might have something to offer to Pakistan to keep them away from Russia.


It should not we should tell USA they should also give us two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 52 but still Pakistan should buy at least 50 SU-35 divided in three squadrons. Just imagine USA and Russia racing with each other to keep us their ally I can feel lot more weapons coming towards us. Both countries because of our location and our status in Muslim world can't afford to ignore us. So now we have all the cards it's time for some really smart moves

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## SpArK

Zarvan said:


> It should not we should tell USA they should also give us two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 52 but still Pakistan should buy at least 50 SU-35 divided in three squadrons. Just imagine USA and Russia racing with each other to keep us their ally I can feel lot more weapons coming towards us. Both countries because of our location and our status in Muslim world can't afford to ignore us. So now we have all the cards it's time for some really smart moves



And in most probably if MRCA Indian drama fails expect Europe including France, GB and Germany will join US and Russia in competing to be the ally of Pakistan. With that special feeling Pakistan will be in a position to bargain and the winning parties will have a life time opportunity to have a sustained long run relationship with one of the major powerhouses and the loosers might still try to win the heart and still send diplomats for mission to cement the relationship and compete again to be Pakistans ally.

This is where long term relationship with US will come into play, expect US to offer technologies and military items that they never intended to give to even coalition partners. Who knows whether Russia will start a joint fighter program with Pakistan like PAK-FA.

I agree this is time of smart moves.Hoping to see some in coming weeks or even months.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nawaz is going to the U S shortly----maybe the U S might have something to offer to Pakistan to keep them away from Russia.



Used -16's are for sure on the table. Pakistan wants the new ones too (option for 18 new block 52), but due to their need, they don't like the delivery time-frame going out to 2018-2019. 

So I'd guess they'll discuss these options, verbally agree and then once an agreement is formed, it'll then be passed onto the defense consultative group, and the process will be started. Now if Obama listens to NS and wants Pakistan to form a coalition with the US and other fighting ISIS, which means equipment becomes a necessity. So even an executive order can released used -16's so Pakistan can keep some home, deploy some ISIS. Win win situation for everyone!! Let's see how this goes!

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## Zarvan

SpArK said:


> And in most probably if MRCA Indian drama fails expect Europe including France, GB and Germany will join US and Russia in competing to be the ally of Pakistan. With that special feeling Pakistan will be in a position to bargain and the winning parties will have a life time opportunity to have a sustained long run relationship with one of the major powerhouses and the loosers might still try to win the heart and still send diplomats for mission to cement the relationship and compete again to be Pakistans ally.
> 
> This is where long term relationship with US will come into play, expect US to offer technologies and military items that they never intended to give to even coalition partners. Who knows whether Russia will start a joint fighter program with Pakistan like PAK-FA.
> 
> I agree this is time of smart moves.Hoping to see some in coming weeks or even months.


Europe I am not so sure about but for USA they can't afford to loose us ally it would be disastrous for their Afghan policy and many other policies


----------



## WishLivePak

Viper0011. said:


> I've said it many times that Russia is going to Pakistan with full package, there is no India or Indian influence to stop it. Similarly, same for goes for the US, the UK, the French and all. They've learned from India that there is no loyalty, its pure business. Well, the business now includes an upcoming economy and futures top 15th most powerful country on the map, called Pakistan. All these big powers will now deal with Pakistan on her own basis. India can kick dust, scream, cry or jump up and down, it doesn't matter. The relationship has been de-hyphenated since last year!!!
> 
> 
> 
> You probably heard it from me as I've written about it a few times already, including yesterday and you are right, the work on the Sixth gen fighter and future Stealth advance B3 Bomber has also started. The flying terminator is coming......
> 
> I'd imagine by 2020 we'd be seeing prototypes and by 2025, flight testing and production would probably start.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that? Mirage carries one Exocet. The JFT can carry two anti-ship missiles and even two BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (when more powerful engine is added). Currently is can carry 2 anti-ship and one BVR or two WVR missiles.
> 
> For Pakistan's coastal defense, you can fly the JFT on one fuel tank. If you get out by 50 KM from Karachi's short line, your anti-ships can lock on a target over 300 KM's away from Karachi. I think that's a huge area the JFT can cover. Ideally, you should have J-11D in numbers but SU-35 is also a great choice. I hope they get these in 60-80, but let's see.


no i didn't hear from you neither do i read your essays 

and FYI, hold your horses. Apart from US, no one is ready for 6th gen. Expect in 2025 that we're "working" on it and they come out in 2030-2035.


----------



## SpArK

Zarvan said:


> Europe I am not so sure about but for USA they can't afford to loose us ally it would be disastrous for their Afghan policy and many other policies



Yes, its been evident from the statements given by US politicians, army men from the past 2-3 years.

This time they gonna give something huge to keep Pakistan away from Russia and others.

Lucky Country.

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## MastanKhan

WishLivePak said:


> no i didn't hear from you neither do i read your essays
> 
> and FYI, hold your horses. Apart from US, no one is ready for 6th gen. Expect in 2025 that we're "working" on it and they come out in 2030-2035.



Don't cut your nose to spite your face.


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## Viper0011.

WishLivePak said:


> no i didn't hear from you neither do i read your essays
> 
> and FYI, hold your horses. Apart from US, no one is ready for 6th gen. Expect in 2025 that we're "working" on it and they come out in 2030-2035.



Wealth of knowledge and experience isn't essays. If you read them for 5 years, you won't need a PHD and your brain will be ten times sharper. The first thing you'd do to prove wisdom learned, would be changing your avatar and put something cool in there, like Kate Upton in a Bikini. Now that's what I call wisdom. Knowledge is power, and you should gather it. Put bulbs to my posts and they'll lit up for days, that's how much knowledge is in there. That's my plan to fix Pakistan's electric issue MUAHAHA!!


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## fatman17

Syed Hussain said:


> I have stopped getting excited about such pieces of news. Because generally it goes like "Pakistan has shown interest in SU-35"...after 2 years, Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35... after more 2 years, Pakistan has decided to go further with the deal...after 2 more years, tan tanan Pakistan has decided to buy 4 units of SU-35 and it could include 2 more units if 'satisfied...deliveries will begin in 4 years...!
> And that's simply mind craping.



Good one mate. Translate to bad economic climate


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## Kompromat

Both JF-17 and J-31 lack the RANGE we are talking about.



Darth Vader said:


> Lets just Wait and see what Becomes of J31 , Just For Maritime Thunder is the Bird for that purpose

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## gau8av

AtiF Malang said:


> After india's Mother of all the military deals death please get some moral value and stop talking big .
> hahaha from 126 to 36 to 0 .


it's 36 + 90, not 126 - 90


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## Kompromat

F-16 is the LAST American fighter PAF has bought. 
The journo called some PAF source, he told him what he wanted him to hear.



MilSpec said:


> lol... your basket itself is American...
> I would agree,,, when your Idaare mentions that they are not involved in "some" activity.... it should be construed that they are....

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## volatile

Imagine PAF and PLAAF both buy SU-35 in a combined deal just like SAAB deal between Saudi and Pak .You could imagine number and price will make so much sense for both.

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## Akasa

volatile said:


> Imagine PAF and PLAAF both buy SU-35 in a combined deal just like SAAB deal between Saudi and Pak .You could imagine number and price will make so much sense for both.



There is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the PLAAF has purchased or is considering to purchase the Su-35. There is neither need nor incentive.


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## Quwa

My thoughts on the matter:

Su-35 to Pakistan? Maybe. Maybe Not…

Su-35 to Pakistan? Maybe. Maybe Not…
Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister reportedly said that Pakistan was in talks for the Su-35.

By Bilal Khan

On September 9th 2015 the news agency Sputnik International reported (link) that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in talks with Russia for the purchase of the Sukhoi Su-35. Dawn News picked up the story the following day (link). The story at hand basically boils down to a statement reportedly made to journalists by Sergei Ryabkov, Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister.

In one of my previous articles (link) I argued that while the growth in Russian-Pakistani defence relations is real, it is important to manage one’s expectations. This is not to demean the inherent strengths of the Su-35 or the value it would bring to the PAF, but at best, this whole issue is likely in its early stages, and thus liable to fall through at any time.

It would be a good idea to explore how the Su-35 would benefit the PAF. For one thing, the Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively. With 12 hardpoints (or weapon stations) at its disposal (link), the Su-35 would make for a very capable strike platform. With its range and twin engine layout, the Flanker could also serve as a robust maritime operations aircraft.

It is not an exaggeration to suggest that the Su-35 is a game-changer for the PAF: The Su-35’s strike element would enable the PAF to threaten India’s northwest operating theatre, especially if said Flankers are equipped with Pakistan’s robust line-up of stand-off air-to-surface munitions. Just imagine the prospect of a Su-35 equipped with multiple air launched cruise missiles (ALCM) equipped with sub-munitions dispensers (for guided bomblets). In terms of the Pakistan’s maritime theatre, the Su-35 could serve as a potent air superiority and anti-ship platform against the Indian Navy’s surface and aerial assets, respectively. Even the Su-35’s Irbis-E radar, which can track 3m2 RCS targets at 400km (link), can enable the Su-35 to achieve considerable situational awareness, and not only would that be beneficial to the Flanker, but nearby aircraft as well (would operate akin to a mini Airborne Early Warning aircraft).

There is no doubting the Su-35’s potential, but there should also be no delusion about the Su-35’s potential maintenance issues for the PAF. It is, at the end of the day, an entirely new fighter type that will require the PAF to lay out maintenance and operational infrastructure from the ground up. And this is not to mention the higher costs associated with flying a larger and heavier aircraft. Whether this task is insurmountable or not is a different story, one I imagine the PAF is (or will be, if the reports are accurate) most familiar with in this regard.

However, to be frank, this is not the actual issue at heart, but rather, it is the question of whether there is enough smoke in this story to infer the existence of a fire. In other words, are these stories true? In the end, the validity of this story is based on two conditions. First, if Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) actually said that the PAF is in talks for the Su-35 and second, if the PAF is actually interested in the fighter.

To be honest, it is difficult to fully ascertain even one of the aforementioned conditions with the information currently available. There is only one known source for the Deputy FM’s statement (i.e. Sputnik), and the only possible indicator of PAF interest is Air Chief Marshal’s Sohail Aman’s response to a PTV interview question about future procurements where he said something along the lines of wanting a healthy mix between Eastern, Western, and indigenous solutions in the next generation fleet. There is nothing specific from either the PAF or even the Pakistani government to suggest that there is interest in the Su-35.

Given the media’s attention on this issue, it might not be long before the PAF makes a statement, either to outright deny that such talks are occurring, or to suggest that there is some momentum behind the Su-35. Let us just hope this issue does not fade into the background without confirmation, as with so many others in the past.

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## volatile

SinoSoldier said:


> There is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the PLAAF has purchased or is considering to purchase the Su-35. There is neither need nor incentive.


I beg to differ not in terms regarding PLAAF not interest SU-35 not on basis of superiority/inferiority but to supplement numbers for PLAAF as well as diplomatically lifting Russia and provide them to continue work on there projects .There have been quite a few threads open in this regard but some how deal were not matured.


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## cmpk1

As far as I'm concerned, this offer of SU35 gives us "options" which were limited few years ago, the question of getting it is another matter. Nobody knows for sure what is going to happen, but what we know for sure is that Pak-Russia relationship is moving ahead & it won't come to halt because "some country" is whining or crying 

As for PAF, i think they're surely up to something big or we would've gone with remaining offer of F16's but PAF opted not to. We had the offer for more F16's, remember? also, PAF could've gone for J10 or J11, but they're still evaluating their options, & i'm guessing there are quite a few options to chose from that it's taking this much time. Change of strategy is certainly on the cards.

Money; I don't think this is an issue any more, Chinese banks are there to help us out, should not worry about this factor specially after our Navy signed a whooping $5Bn deal. Also, do you think PAF spends all of its money that it gets, in every budget, for new acquisition purposes? we've already spent $2bn, in one year, over op Zarb-e-Azb, yet some of the people, specifically Indians, whine about us being cash strapped. lol


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## MastanKhan

aamerjamal said:


> So by this means, Block 52 are a 30 Million per plane?
> Even if we dont by SU35 but a need for Long Range Air Superiority Fighter is pretty Imminent.
> 
> To all these Think Tanks:
> How can you Protect Karachi and Gwader Port if India is trying to Block it?
> 
> for me the cheapest Solution is Getting More and More AIP Subs and Planes like SU35, instead of increasing Surface Fleet....



Hi,

It is always a combination of things that creates a deterrent.

Supposedly---the SU35 deal is done with Russia or F35 deal signed with the U S-----and you get either one of these aircraft or even the F16 BLK60-----but still that is not enough----.

Now with this air superiority fighter---you need to compliment your deep strike capabilities as well.

In the current scenario---Pakistan needs 4 different kinds of aircraft----in the future---it will need 5 different kinds----till the F 16's are retd----.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is always a combination of things that creates a deterrent.
> 
> Supposedly---the SU35 deal is done with Russia or F35 deal signed with the U S-----and you get either one of these aircraft or even the F16 BLK60-----but still that is not enough----.
> 
> Now with this air superiority fighter---you need to compliment your deep strike capabilities as well.
> 
> In the current scenario---Pakistan needs 4 different kinds of aircraft----in the future---it will need 5 different kinds----till the F 16's are retd----.


For deep strike and good offensive punch J-16 is best option


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## MastanKhan

Last Samuri said:


> Can we stop wasting time on this nonsense now
> 
> concentrate on upgrading the thunders for now and upgrading those used Jordanian falcons
> 
> be realistic in your threads to keep the forum alive lets leave the fantasy stuff boys



Hi,

The Jordanian F16's have already been upgraded.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Jordanian F16's have already been upgraded.



Hi,

Let e re-phrase it again---for Naval deep strikes.

F 16 is not suitable.

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## batmannow

Viper0011. said:


> This is a feel good video, the AWACS and the EFT's were getting tracked  but they didn't fire first? EFT can use AWACSs data link and fire well beyond 100 miles away, with MBDA Meteors and Mica combination. Its one of the best out there.
> 
> Similarly, the ship they showed, couldn't detect the incoming jets from like 300 miles away? Had no ship defense system, CIWS or anything else? What happened to the outer layer of AD? I am assuming the Russians tried to show a NATO ship as always but there is a combat air-cover that extends out to 300 miles. Not to mention in a CBG, there are over 35 ships with each one having multiple high power radars. So there should've been a volley of missiles fired at the SU, in this video, the SU's almost come head on with the ship, fire their munitions and right before their munitions hit, the ships fires two missiles. That's lame, what Navy was it? It wasn't NATO or the USN for sure...the Chinese or the Indian or the Bangladesh navy??


Guess it was just a promotional video , don't go too deep friend ?lokzz

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## Darth Vader

Horus said:


> Both JF-17 and J-31 lack the RANGE we are talking about.


Dont See PAF going Hunting Somalian pirates soon


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## Sine Nomine

Viper0011. said:


> This is a feel good video, the AWACS and the EFT's were getting tracked  but they didn't fire first? EFT can use AWACSs data link and fire well beyond 100 miles away, with MBDA Meteors and Mica combination. Its one of the best out there.
> 
> Similarly, the ship they showed, couldn't detect the incoming jets from like 300 miles away? Had no ship defense system, CIWS or anything else? What happened to the outer layer of AD? I am assuming the Russians tried to show a NATO ship as always but there is a combat air-cover that extends out to 300 miles. Not to mention in a CBG, there are over 35 ships with each one having multiple high power radars. So there should've been a volley of missiles fired at the SU, in this video, the SU's almost come head on with the ship, fire their munitions and right before their munitions hit, the ships fires two missiles. That's lame, what Navy was it? It wasn't NATO or the USN for sure...the Chinese or the Indian or the Bangladesh navy??


1) It's a promotional video.
2)Su-35 radar has range of is 350-400 km for targets with RCS=3m2.
Radar control system "IRBIS-E" for Su-35 fighter
Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

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## Jaam92

Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan. 
Everyone saved only burn injuries reported. 

15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt, almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.
its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY

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## Akasa

volatile said:


> I beg to differ not in terms regarding PLAAF not interest SU-35 not on basis of superiority/inferiority but to supplement numbers for PLAAF as well as diplomatically lifting Russia and provide them to continue work on there projects .There have been quite a few threads open in this regard but some how deal were not matured.



China does Russia's gas-dependent economy far more of a favor by signing long-term energy deals than buying a measly few dozen fighter aircraft. So far the "reports" that have propagated through the Internet have not only failed to materialize after many years, but have been denied by the governments of both countries.


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## Yaduveer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641995553425874944

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/642044092600291328
But no worries guys ..Su35 is on the way !

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## GURU DUTT

Yaduveer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641995553425874944
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/642044092600291328
> But no worries guys ..Su35 is on the way !


never play with a emotional persons emotions

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## WishLivePak

Viper0011. said:


> Wealth of knowledge and experience isn't essays. If you read them for 5 years, you won't need a PHD and your brain will be ten times sharper. The first thing you'd do to prove wisdom learned, would be changing your avatar and put something cool in there, like Kate Upton in a Bikini. Now that's what I call wisdom. Knowledge is power, and you should gather it. Put bulbs to my posts and they'll lit up for days, that's how much knowledge is in there. That's my plan to fix Pakistan's electric issue MUAHAHA!!


the first thing you can do is grow up.

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## volatile

SinoSoldier said:


> China does Russia's gas-dependent economy far more of a favor by signing long-term energy deals than buying a measly few dozen fighter aircraft. So far the "reports" that have propagated through the Internet have not only failed to materialize after many years, but have been denied by the governments of both countries.


SO after reviewing your view point it appears as Russian are really keen in selling SU-35 as PAF hasnt even commented and most of the senior analyst believe this deal will not occur .i think this deal talk is W/W for all like it will make India to consider more copies as well keep in Russian basket similarly for PAF it opens option for Western/US jets probably F-15/F-18 .


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## Akasa

volatile said:


> SO after reviewing your view point it appears as Russian are really keen in selling SU-35 as PAF hasnt even commented and most of the senior analyst believe this deal will not occur .i think this deal talk is W/W for all like it will make India to consider more copies as well keep in Russian basket similarly for PAF it opens option for Western/US jets probably F-15/F-18 .



It could be Russia's urgency to sell what it claimed would dominate the market (which ironically found no users). It equally could have been an error in translation or mere sloppy journalism.

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## Peace seeker

something big is coming man.............


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## volatile

SinoSoldier said:


> It could be Russia's urgency to sell what it claimed would dominate the market (which ironically found no users). It equally could have been an error in translation or mere sloppy journalism.


Su-35 is already getting some orders from Indonesia i guess ,Regarding translation error i don't think this is a case as Defence.pk Facebook site is pretty enthusiastic about it with SU35 video uploaded doing all sort of dance.


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## mhacsan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected



Sir jee, is Air chief your father in law?

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## Myth_buster_1

@MastanKhan

What is your thoughts regarding number of su-35 PAF may be interested in. IMO 2 sqd are more then enough for PAF one in north and one in south supplementing existing F-16 and JF-17 fleet. J-xx wont be enough as its main priority will be stealth and wont carry as potent strike package as Su-35 will be...



Yaduveer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641995553425874944
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/642044092600291328
> But no worries guys ..Su35 is on the way !



This idiot journalist credibility is good as me saying I spoke with PAF ACM that PAF is buying 250 F-22. Indians celebrating from twitter journalist remarks goes to show how p1ssed and worried Indians are about PAF interests in Su-35... btw we will have better flankers then your sorry @ss MKI...

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## Yaduveer

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This idiot journalist credibility is good as me saying I spoke with PAF ACM that PAF is buying 250 F-22. Indians celebrating from twitter journalist remarks goes to show how p1ssed and worried Indians are about PAF interests in Su-35... btw we will have better flankers then your sorry @ss MKI...



*Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia*
Last Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2015 - 23:54

New Delhi: *Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India*.

Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

"Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.

"This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.

"*As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other*," it added.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to ruin your Fun . Enjoy and don't quote me .. otherwise I would give more bad news to you !


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## Windjammer

Myth_buster_1 said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> What is your thoughts regarding number of su-35 PAF may be interested in. IMO 2 sqd are more then enough for PAF one in north and one in south supplementing existing F-16 and JF-17 fleet. J-xx wont be enough as its main priority will be stealth and wont carry as potent strike package as Su-35 will be...
> 
> 
> 
> This idiot journalist credibility is good as me saying I spoke with PAF ACM that PAF is buying 250 F-22. Indians celebrating from twitter journalist remarks goes to show how p1ssed and worried Indians are about PAF interests in Su-35... btw we will have better flankers then your sorry @ss MKI...


Well, the poor souls need something to cheer about after their own repeated humiliations.
While the PAF hasn't confirmed or denied this news, they will surely not reveal all to some unknown tweeting journalist.
The news i heard is that while the SU-35 is being discussed, the PAF is keeping other options op[en.



Yaduveer said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to ruin your Fun . Enjoy and don't quote me .. otherwise I would give more bad news to you !



Give it your best shot buster, the words of any frivolous Indian are irrelevant in Pakistan related scenarios.

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## Farah Sohail

Windjammer said:


> While the PAF hasn't confirmed or denied this news, they will surely not reveal all to some unknown tweeting journalist.
> The news i heard is that while the SU-35 is being discussed, the PAF is keeping other options op[en.
> .



What are those other options? Probably Chinese J 31 ? Any else from west being considered?


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## Windjammer

Farah Sohail said:


> What are those other options? Probably Chinese J 31 ? Any else from west being considered?


Watch this latest interview of PAF Air chief, specially the comments on next generation aircraft.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=821637061287441


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Well, the poor souls need something to cheer about after their own repeated humiliations.
> While the PAF hasn't confirmed or denied this news, they will surely not reveal all to some unknown tweeting journalist.
> The news i heard is that while the SU-35 is being discussed, the PAF is keeping other options op[en.
> 
> 
> 
> Give it your best shot buster, the words of any frivolous Indian are irrelevant in Pakistan related scenarios.



This is confusing, because if PAF is actually looking at SU35, then it is not just the aircraft that matters, but the fact that whole new thinking has to take place. SU35 is a 'heavy' an asset that never existed for PAF. How do they go about it? What are the implications and above all, what are the aims?
Clearly, there aren't many options available in the heavy class. Not Typhoon, not Rafale and certainly not US ones. Chinese flankers are there, but i don't think China can re-export what is basically Russian tech.

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## Farah Sohail

Windjammer said:


> Watch this latest interview of PAF Air chief, specially the comments on next generation aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=821637061287441



In tht interview he simply said ..we are looking for next gen fighter, both in east and west...he didnt mention any specific one.. So was asking you..if you have any idea..which options are being evaluated / judged by PAF, other than su 35?


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## airmarshal

Last Samuri said:


> IF PAF can part with $5 billion to buy 50 SU35 then why not.
> 
> BUT you wont get soft loans from Russia LIKE you did on the Thunders
> 
> OR grant AID LIKE DID ON F16
> 
> NO FREEBIE from Russia JUST HARD CASH



Typical Indian mentality as if Indians know Pakistan finances better than Pakistan. You keep your hurt in your but* and learn to live with it. 

Pakistan is buying AH-1Z out of own money. It bought all F-16s out of own defence budget, not AID! This is for all major defence purchases. 

JF-17 was a collaboration not charity or aid. 

Now if reading this, you got AIDS, thats not my issue.


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nawaz is going to the U S shortly----maybe the U S might have something to offer to Pakistan to keep them away from Russia.



I don't think USA can offer anything on the level of SU35......that'll mean either full F-35 package or upgraded F-15s.....


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## #hydra#

Donatello said:


> I don't think USA can offer anything on the level of SU35......that'll mean either full F-35 package or upgraded F-15s.....


Su 35 is Superior to even f35 in all aspects except stealth.


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## Yaduveer

> *ABU DHABI — Moscow and New Delhi have agreed to perform design work in India on what Russia claims would be a "fifth generation" version of the Su-35, an agreement that may lead to an Indian variant of the fighter jet, the Russian Military Complex chief said.*


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## Assault Rifle

Will not take any step detrimental
to India’s security:Russia.

New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
never take any step detrimental to the security
and safety of its special strategic partner
India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
Su-35 fighter jets.
“Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
at the highest level that Russia will never take
any steps detrimental to the security and safety
of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
India, or the security structure in the South Asian
region, or any other region for that matter,” the
statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
Russia)
“This assurance is fully valid today as it was
valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com

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## Stephen Cohen



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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> This is confusing, because if PAF is actually looking at SU35, then it is not just the aircraft that matters, but the fact that whole new thinking has to take place. SU35 is a 'heavy' an asset that never existed for PAF. How do they go about it? What are the implications and above all, what are the aims?
> Clearly, there aren't many options available in the heavy class. Not Typhoon, not Rafale and certainly not US ones. Chinese flankers are there, but i don't think China can re-export what is basically Russian tech.





Farah Sohail said:


> In tht interview he simply said ..we are looking for next gen fighter, both in east and west...he didnt mention any specific one.. So was asking you..if you have any idea..which options are being evaluated / judged by PAF, other than su 35?



Our original security requirement for 40 Block-52s is half complete thus pending. As the Air Chief said, PAF is looking both East and West, all depends what meets PAF's doctrine....additional F-16s, J-10 or even some rumours on F/A 18 Hornets and then you have SU-35 and further down the line J-31.....all depending on developing scenarios.

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## RAMPAGE

Insecurity ki bhi koi hadd hoti hai!

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## Zarvan

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com


India needs to learn they can't stop growing Pakistan and Russia relations the sooner they realize it the better for them.

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## Mav3rick

RAMPAGE said:


> Insecurity ki bhi koi hadd hoti hai!



Actually, nahi hoti.......The thread itself is a prime example.

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## Stephen Cohen

Zarvan said:


> India needs to learn they can't stop growing Pakistan and Russia relations the sooner they realize it the better for them.



But we can OUT SPEND you by a Factor of SIX at least 

So First the French decided NOT to supply avionics for JF 17 
because of Mirage 2000 upgrades and RAFALE deal 

AND Now the Russians dont want to loose their Biggest client

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## Yaduveer

Why did you ruin fun ? OP

Akhirkaar Pakistaniyon ki 1 din ki Khushi tumase dekhi na gayi.

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## Pindi Boy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected


are u sure about 75 if it is than it gonna be bhale bhale  for paf



09ee97 said:


> Or we could focus on our economy first and then decide to procure something worthy may be after 4-5 years down the road?


_A nation with $ 19 billion in her savings account, for national security purposes, can spend $ 2 billion tomorrow and get stuff on cash. The only thing like I've said many times is, Pakistan is being smart about it. She doesn't want to tick off the WB and the IMF (both of which have a lot of Indian influence)._


_So if Pakistan can push ahead making economic progress for two more years, by the end of 2017, part of the CPEC would be functional, electric issue would be resolved, the country would be sitting around $ 30 billion cash, so middle finger for the IMF. It can secure loans directly from the manufacturing country for anything due to loan to cash ratio._


_This is where both Shariffs are playing great together. Bad Cop (Gen. Raheel) and Good Cop (NS) when it comes to India. Gen. Raheel will issue a strong war-like message to keep Indian in reality check, the next week, NS will send MANGOS to keep their leadership calm. This is perfect aggressive-passive diplomacy and it works. Tells the Indians to remain at bay and at the same time, with a smile, it says "we don't want war, here, have some Mangos". All this is buying time for 2 more years. Then, India won't be issuing these silly statements, knowing there are over 400 4th gen jets to intercept whatever they have to send. Just like the Cold Feet doctrine has seen its end, and just like the "Naval Blockade" has seen its end._


_So in the next 2+ years, you'll see a bump in the defense spending. By 2018, the defense budget of Pakistan will be around $ 12-14 billion. And heavies would come, the JFT's will be further advanced to block III._

_In the current scenario, the JFT fires a BVR missile from JUST as much distance as the SU-30 and the Mirage 2000 or the F-16 would, in the Indo-Pak scenario. So majority of the work is going to be depending upon missiles. In dog fight, JFT can take on all Indian strike platforms but SU-30 and Rafale (when it comes). The -16 can take on the SU-30 and Rafale. Starting 2018, you'll see orders on the table for more assets and much modern at that. You just have to wait._


_Like i said, the Pakistan running on little budget till the 2010,isn't the Pakistan now, sure isn't the Pakistan of 2018. A faster growing economy with a potential to be the top11th economy in years to come, requires a much stronger defense. Now there is money, and only time required for two more years to establish the system, strengthen it and get a few big project live or parts of those, live._


_A LOT of new stuff is coming to Pakistan's all three forces. Just watch how it unfolds by 2018!!
_

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## SrNair

Donatello said:


> I don't think USA can offer anything on the level of SU35......that'll mean either full F-35 package or upgraded F-15s.....




Fact is Russia also not going to offer
Russian embassy calls Su-35 sale to Pakistan report as sheer overstatement and overeaction by media


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## lastofthepatriots

Russia won't sell, but I'm sure plenty of other countries will. Their loss.

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## Donatello

Why did the Deputy FM make the comments then?

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## Dalit

LMAO @ Indian paranoia. Fvcking loving it.

LOL @:

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com

Man, the Indians are in a fit...

First their own MMRCA deal goes down the drain. An absolute joke. They brag for months, but in the end nothing but hot air. Now, the Russian deputy FM confirms the ongoing talks about Pakistan acquiring the Su-35 and just watch how these Indians have scrambled in a rage...

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## Stealth

Lol FM report was aiiiiir by all international Media's where as this News only on Indian websites HAHHAHAAHHA chutya koom chutya media

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## shah1398

So MI-35s arrival in Pakistan is not a matter of concern for India.Right?Good to know that.

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## #hydra#

SrNair said:


> Fact is Russia also not going to offer
> Russian embassy calls Su-35 sale to Pakistan report as sheer overstatement and overeaction by media


Is that a confirmed statement?


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## aliyusuf

usama fiaz said:


> are u sure about 75 if it is than it gonna be bhale bhale  for paf



Yes its also going to be something close to USD 8 to 8.5 billion considering the off-the-shelf cost, spares, weapons, training, infrastructure etc.

Even if this becomes reality ... it won't be more than 2 to 3 squadrons. But it is too early to say and this thing will take time if it ever gets going in the first place.

But what is more probable to happen is that we may get a few very useful goodies like SAMs and BiStatic AESA radars etc. real cheap and ready.


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## Dalit

!eon said:


> Seems Russia is trolling India on SU-35.
> Where is Rafale deal ? still unfinished ?



What a strategy by the Pakistanis! Up the ante so top speak and create panic among the Indian ranks. Whilst their own MMRCA deal isn't materializing, Pakistanis are creating gigantic panic attacks for the Indians by opting for a squadron of Su-35's. The Indian air chief is going to be crying rivers in the coming weeks and months.

The MMRCA deal has been an absolute joke. The Indians might eventually go with the Rafale, but with so much uncertainty and pain. *To add more fuel to the fire, Pakistan will be going for a fighter that the Indians just rejected during the MMRCA bid.* How bloody sweet is that?! I wouldn't be surprised if PAF ended up with a few solid Su-35 squadrons and perhaps even more in the future. It would be a major paradigm shift for PAF inducting twin engine fighters. Not to mention, an absolute cracker of a diplomatic achievement. The Su-35 is perfectly suited for coastline defence due to its range, radar and weapons package (dual engine safety). It could replace all the Mirages and be able to protect our naval assets and the economic zone. To top it all, it's good to see economic and defence cooperation between Russia and Pakistan which was long overdue. Good to see both countries forging strong ties. The Su-35 is a premium Russian fighter and this deal will eradicate many if not all past suspicions and conflicts between Russia and Pakistan. Don't doubt that for a second. I can't wait for a camouflaged Su-35 squadron...

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## volatile

#hydra# said:


> Su 35 is Superior to even f35 in all aspects except stealth.


Just bcas you have super flankers doesnt mean you can comment on any thing F-35 in time will be some thing in a league always above Russian and Chinese


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## Pindi Boy

aliyusuf said:


> Yes its also going to be something close to USD 8 to 8.5 billion considering the off-the-shelf cost, spares, weapons, training, infrastructure etc.
> 
> Even if this becomes reality ... it won't be more than 2 to 3 squadrons. But it is too early to say and this thing will take time if it ever gets going in the first place.
> 
> But what is more probable to happen is that we may get a few very useful goodies like SAMs and BiStatic AESA radars etc. real cheap and ready.


i mean 75 jets ???????????


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## Dr. Sen

shah1398 said:


> So MI-35s arrival in Pakistan is not a matter of concern for India.Right?Good to know that.



No matter what ever Pakistan buys, it will never reach our level because of financial constrains. So no concerns.

But please keep on spending a huge fraction of your tiny GDP on military, its good for us.


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## Indus Falcon

Dr. Sen said:


> No matter what ever Pakistan buys, it will never reach our level because of financial constrains. So no concerns.
> 
> But please keep on spending a huge fraction of your tiny GDP on military, its good for us.



This is called "Delusions of Grandeur".

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## aliyusuf

volatile said:


> Just bcas you have super flankers doesnt mean you can comment on any thing F-35 in time will be some thing in a league always above Russian and Chinese



This might prove interesting ...

Reuters War College Podcast :
Playing: War College | Podcast Chart

Flightgobal:
Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact


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## volatile

aliyusuf said:


> This might prove interesting ...
> 
> Reuters War College Podcast :
> Playing: War College | Podcast Chart
> 
> Flightgobal:
> Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact


O bhai wait ker lo thora sa F-16 in start was always considers to be a failed project look where it stands now .Iagree Americans are stupid but not that stupid putting all eggs in one basket .F35 needs to replance F16,F18,F15 just like JF17 replaces A5,Mirages,F7s as JF is way superior to these similarly F35 in time will kick butt


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## Dr. Sen

Indus Falcon said:


> This is called "Delusions of Grandeur".



No its not because I can also tell you that we wont win a war with you because of nukes.

So its a fact, conventional superiority but equalised when nukes are taken into consideration.


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## Stealth

SrNair said:


> Fact is Russia also not going to offer
> Russian embassy calls Su-35 sale to Pakistan report as sheer overstatement and overeaction by media



the fact that as usual Indians Chutya media share this news... where as FM report was published by all international media hahhaha SU yaan F22 mil raha hey kay nahe but tumse bare chutya koom nahe dekhi hahahahha

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## !eon

> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia


Hey wait a second, what is that when you provide China with your most sophisticated weapons ?

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## Dr. Sen

!eon said:


> Hey wait a second, what is that when you provide China with your most sophisticated weapons ?



Its all rubbish diplomatic talk. No friends, just partners. We used them, they used us.


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## GURU DUTT

shah1398 said:


> So MI-35s arrival in Pakistan is not a matter of concern for India.Right?Good to know that.


why should indians be botherred about pakistan getting "4Mi-35s" 

he he he he are your serous  

what if i told you we are opretaing M-35 /mi-25 since two decades if not more and now are "retiring" them from owr service but then no har in dreaming

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## Muhammad Omar

The Embassy didn't say that We are Not Giving it to Pakistan.... Either

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## Indus Falcon

Dr. Sen said:


> No its not because I can also tell you that we wont win a war with you because of nukes.
> 
> So its a fact, conventional superiority but equalised when nukes are taken into consideration.



This is where your delusions, fog your mind. You need quit watching your mudea/ media, bollywood, and start looking at our capabilities, and glaring holes in your hardware, morale, training, and strategy. After you have done that, then come back.

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## Dr. Sen

Indus Falcon said:


> This is where your delusions, fog your mind. You need quit watching your mudea/ media, bollywood, and start looking at our capabilities, and glaring holes in your hardware, morale, training, and strategy. After you have done that, then come back.




I dont watch TV. So what you are saying is Pakistan is conventionally superior to India?


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> the fact that as usual Indians Chutya media share this news... where as FM report was published by all international media hahhaha SU yaan F22 mil raha hey kay nahe but tumse bare chutya koom nahe dekhi hahahahha


I agree with you. Pakistan should also join TFX program with Turkey and bring in Ukraine also. Ukraine can be of great help specially in developing latest engine for Stealth Plane.


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## Myth_buster_1

that is t-50 and we we are talking about su-35


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## Pindi Boy

Stealth said:


> the fact that as usual Indians Chutya media share this news... where as FM report was published by all international media hahhaha SU yaan F22 mil raha hey kay nahe but tumse bare chutya koom nahe dekhi hahahahha




1. Chengdu J-20 has maxiumum altitude of 65,620 feet. F-22 maxes out at 60,000 feet.
2. Chengdu J-20 has a combat radius of 1,200 miles. F-22 combat radius is only 470 miles.
3. Chengdu J-20 has EOTS (electro-optical targeting system). F-22 has no EOTS.
4. Chengdu J-20 has EODAS (electro-optical distributed aperture system). F-22 has no EODAS.
5. Chengdu J-20 is optimized for both transonic flight and maneuverability. F-22 is optimized only for maneuverability.

Point #5 is a little complicated, so I'll explain it in more detail. The Chengdu J-20 uses a canard-delta wing design to optimize performance in the transonic range of 0.8 to 1.2 Mach. "Leading edge sweep is ~43°, clearly intended for efficient supersonic flight." The Chengdu J-20 has canards, steerable vertical stabilizers, and ventral fins to increase maneuverability.

The F-22 design only maximizes maneuverability by having large trapezoidal wings and 2-D TVC engine nozzles. The friction caused by large wings is a hindrance to efficient transonic flight. The F-22 has a higher and less-efficient leading-edge wing angle of 47.5°.


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## AtiF Malang

J11 is Su's clone . Why opt for the clone when you can get the real 



Viper0011. said:


> I've said it many times that Russia is going to Pakistan with full package, there is no India or Indian influence to stop it. Similarly, same for goes for the US, the UK, the French and all. They've learned from India that there is no loyalty, its pure business. Well, the business now includes an upcoming economy and futures top 15th most powerful country on the map, called Pakistan. All these big powers will now deal with Pakistan on her own basis. India can kick dust, scream, cry or jump up and down, it doesn't matter. The relationship has been de-hyphenated since last year!!!
> 
> 
> 
> You probably heard it from me as I've written about it a few times already, including yesterday and you are right, the work on the Sixth gen fighter and future Stealth advance B3 Bomber has also started. The flying terminator is coming......
> 
> I'd imagine by 2020 we'd be seeing prototypes and by 2025, flight testing and production would probably start.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that? Mirage carries one Exocet. The JFT can carry two anti-ship missiles and even two BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (when more powerful engine is added). Currently is can carry 2 anti-ship and one BVR or two WVR missiles.
> 
> For Pakistan's coastal defense, you can fly the JFT on one fuel tank. If you get out by 50 KM from Karachi's short line, your anti-ships can lock on a target over 300 KM's away from Karachi. I think that's a huge area the JFT can cover. Ideally, you should have J-11D in numbers but SU-35 is also a great choice. I hope they get these in 60-80, but let's see.


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## shah1398

GURU DUTT said:


> why should indians be botherred about pakistan getting "4Mi-35s"
> 
> he he he he are your serous
> 
> what if i told you we are opretaing M-35 /mi-25 since two decades if not more and now are "retiring" them from owr service but then no har in dreaming



Good to know that. I think U missed the part which said figure 4 is just a beginning

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## Pindi Boy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan.
> Everyone saved only burn injuries reported.
> 
> 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt, almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.
> its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY


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## Indus Falcon

Dr. Sen said:


> I dont watch TV. So what you are saying is Pakistan is conventionally superior to India?



Don't put words in my mouth. But yes I can assure you, Conventionally we can give you quite a good thrashing as well.

Secondly, you need to look at your multiple freedom movements, and how they would a manipulate a skirmish on the border.

Do read this:

*India suffered 1,874 casualties without fighting a war - The Times of India*

*SOS. Army is Seeing More Suicides.

597 military personnel have committed suicide in last 5 years, government says - The Times of India
*

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## aks18

you could not design your own Tejas how you gona design a stealth fighter that too in india

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## PARIKRAMA

its better Pak gets Su35.. pls get 60-80 birds by buying it outright with or without credit from Russia.

@For all indian members:
Thats the best news as finally any such decision will ensure India and IAF gets the squad strength up by way of either Rafale, Pakfa, LCAs, and more MKIs Super standard. If we need any urgency to kick in our modernisation then thats the best moment.

Perhaps this actual signing news may wake up the GOI's shopping list execution which so far had been more of hunting for best bargain deals and leading to long gestation periods....


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## shah1398

Dr. Sen said:


> No matter what ever Pakistan buys, it will never reach our level because of financial constrains. So no concerns.
> 
> But please keep on spending a huge fraction of your tiny GDP on military, its good for us.



Good to know U have got no issues with that. n we exactly know what we are doing

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## Pindi Boy

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com






Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan.
Everyone saved only burn injuries reported.

15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt, almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.
its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY


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## araz

Spectre said:


> Pakistan should grab these planes ASAP if on offer and give all those Indians who yap about Pakistan not having enough money/resources a proverbial middle finger. Pakistan is way more important for Russia than India due to it's immense geo-strategic importance, vast untapped resources, deeper,sweeter,higher best friendship with China in addition to CPEC which is going to completely transform Pakistan.
> 
> It is good that Pakistan waited for so long before inducting a modern twin engine fighter jet, now Pakistan has an opportunity to get it's hand on a true beast which is going to have Rafales and SU-30 MKIs for breakfast and not even burp.
> Doesn't matter how much they cost as it gives an unparalleled capacity to PAF in the subcontinent. Maintenance, spares, operating costs, availability and all the other pesky details can be worked out in leisure, any way Pakistanis are master of Jugad and resourceful innovators.
> 
> One in a lifetime opportunity to get Russian's on Pakistan's side and make new global axis of Russia -China - Pakistan
> 
> Regards


Sarcasm aside, I don't think it makes a damn difference to the Indo pak conflict scenario.It may make things a little bit more expensive for India as the move will need to be countered. However, if either party feels at all threatened by the buildup of the other, the nuclear threshold will be lowered. So it will be a case of "if we go we will take you with us". So while kids will get excited on either side while squeezing their pimples, the older ones amongst us will raise an eye brow and a groan and a hope that one day both the countries will see the light of the day, resolve their differences, open up the borders to free trade and resolve to spend their meagre resources on the betterment of the hungry and naked shelterless masses that inhabit both the countries.
Araz

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## AtiF Malang

In 9 years 126 is reduced to 26 . Lets wait two three years more it will be 6 +120 . 
You cannot fool the world anymore . 



gau8av said:


> it's 36 + 90, not 126 - 90


In


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan.
> Everyone saved only burn injuries reported.
> 
> 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt,* almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.*
> its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY



sheher bassa nahi maskharre pehle aa gaye


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## Dalit

araz said:


> Sarcasm aside, I don't think it makes a damn difference to the Indo pak conflict scenario.It may make things a little bit more expensive for India as the move will need to be countered. However, if either party feels at all threatened by the buildup of the other, the nuclear threshold will be lowered. So it will be a case of "if we go we will take you with us". So while kids will get excited on either side while squeezing their pimples, the older ones amongst us will raise an eye brow and a groan and a hope that one day both the countries will see the light of the day, resolve their differences, open up the borders to free trade and resolve to spend their meagre resources on the betterment of the hungry and naked shelterless masses that inhabit both the countries.
> Araz



Can't even disagree on a single sentence. However, it takes two to tango. The Indians have been offered countless opportunities under the leadership of Nawaz Sharif to mend ties even to the displeasure of many including me. India didn't take this opportunity, but instead its army opted to flare up tensions at the border regions. We all know this. Whilst we all want peace and prosperity between both nations, India being the bigger nation needs to get off the high horse and accept the ground realities. Find a suitable solution to the Kashmir conflict and stop financing and aiding terror on Pakistani soil.

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## !eon

Indus Falcon said:


> Don't put words in mouth. But yes I can assure you, Conventionally we can give you quite a good thrashing as well.
> 
> Secondly, you need to look at your multiple freedom movements, and how they would a manipulate a skirmish on the border.
> 
> Do read this:
> 
> *India suffered 1,874 casualties without fighting a war - The Times of India*
> 
> *SOS. Army is Seeing More Suicides.
> 
> 597 military personnel have committed suicide in last 5 years, government says - The Times of India*





Dr. Sen said:


> I dont watch TV. So what you are saying is Pakistan is conventionally superior to India?


Don't want to interrupt your discussion, but one thing I want to share as visitor to both countries that a normal Pakistani is living in far better conditions than a normal Indian.
If you take GDP as a base for military purchases then Pakistan couldn't have even buy what it has today.

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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> sheher bassa nahi maskharre pehle aa gaye

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## Tuchha

usama fiaz said:


> Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan.
> Everyone saved only burn injuries reported.
> 
> 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt, almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.
> its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY




Why u need those above junks.....your JF17 Shuper Dupper Fighter is all enough for India. 
Indeed, if u plan to buy.. then be ready with your Shiny begging bowl as usual.

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## Dr. Sen

Indus Falcon said:


> Don't put words in mouth. But yes I can assure you, Conventionally we can give you quite a good thrashing as well.
> 
> Secondly, you need to look at your multiple freedom movements, and how they would a manipulate a skirmish on the border.
> 
> Do read this:
> 
> *India suffered 1,874 casualties without fighting a war - The Times of India*
> 
> *SOS. Army is Seeing More Suicides.
> 
> 597 military personnel have committed suicide in last 5 years, government says - The Times of India*



Yes I agree we have problems, but so do you. Even with all these problems we are conventionally supirior.

You say our military is falling apart, demoralised? Well 90,000 of your great soldiers surrendered to our 'demoralised army'. This demoralised army divided your country in half.

Look, we have multiple aircraft carriers, nuke subs, direct energy weapons development, space technology etc, now you think these are also delusions? 

Even if half of our military gets blown up, still we will have supiriority.


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## Indus Falcon

!eon said:


> Don't want to interrupt your discussion, but one thing I want to share as visitor to both countries that a normal Pakistani is living in far better conditions than a normal Indian.
> If you take GDP as a base for military purchases then Pakistan couldn't have even bought what it has today.



You should visit Indian Occupied Kashmir and talk to the ordinary folks there, see what they say how they talk about India, and how they respect Pakistan!

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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> View attachment 255595


but first it has to be true its just a rumour now .... give me link where there are 10 Mi-35 baought or russia selling pakistan su-35 any link any russian or report by defnce weekli like janes .... na soot na kapas aur julahe lathhamm lathhaa


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## Dr. Sen

GURU DUTT said:


> but first it has to be true its just a rumour now .... give me link where there are 10 Mi-35 baought or russia selling pakistan su-35 any link any russian or report by defnce weekli like janes .... na soot na kapas aur julahe lathhamm lathhaa



We are retiring our old helis, maybe we can donate a few to Pakistan,

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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> but first it has to be true its just a rumour now .... give me link where there are 10 Mi-35 baought or russia selling pakistan su-35 any link any russian or report by defnce weekli like janes .... na soot na kapas aur julahe lathhamm lathhaa


4 is initial batch once got these than others will come automatically

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## Muhammad Omar

*Russia, viceministro Esteri: cooperazione con Pakistan non minaccia relazioni con India*
*Mosca e Islamabad sono attualmente in trattative per la fornitura di elicotteri multiruolo russi Mi-35M e degli ultimi jet da combattimento Su-35*
di Velino International 1815 09 settembre 2015 fonte ilVelino/AGV NEWS/Sputnik Nižnij Tagil






Nižnij Tagil, 18:15 - 09 settembre 2015 (AGV NEWS)

La maggiore cooperazione militare tra Russia e Pakistan non avrà effetti negativi sulle relazioni tra Mosca e Nuova Delhi. Lo ha detto il viceministro degli Esteri russo Sergei Ryabkov. Mosca e Islamabad sono attualmente in trattative per la fornitura di elicotteri multiruolo russi Mi-35M e degli ultimi jet da combattimento Su-35. “Non credo che i contatti in discussione causeranno gelosia da parte di una delle due parti”, ha detto ai giornalisti Ryabkov aggiungendo che i legami tra i paesi sono in continua evoluzione, non solo militare ma anche in altri settori, compreso quello energetico.

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets. "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists. Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy. Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.

Russia, viceministro Esteri: cooperazione con Pakistan non minaccia relazioni con India (09 set 2015) - ilVelino/AGV NEWS



Translation

Russia, Deputy Foreign Affairs: Cooperation with Pakistan does not threaten relations with India


Moscow and Islamabad are currently in negotiations for the supply of multi-role helicopters, Russian Mi-35M and the last fighter jet Su-35

The increased military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have negative effects on relations between Moscow and New Delhi. This was stated by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in negotiations for the supply of multi-role helicopters, Russian Mi-35M and the last fighter jet Su-35. "I do not think that the contacts in question will cause jealousy on the part of either party," Ryabkov told reporters adding that the ties between the countries are evolving, not only military but also in other sectors, including energy.

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets. "I do not think That the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov Told journalists. Pakistan is Russia's closest partners, Ryabkov said, adding That the two countries' ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy. Relations between India and Pakistan sono stati strained since the end of British rule seven Decades August They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 Following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have accused each other of Repeatedly Violating the truce.

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## Muhammad Omar

*Russia, viceministro Esteri: cooperazione con Pakistan non minaccia relazioni con India*
*Mosca e Islamabad sono attualmente in trattative per la fornitura di elicotteri multiruolo russi Mi-35M e degli ultimi jet da combattimento Su-35*
di Velino International 1815 09 settembre 2015 fonte ilVelino/AGV NEWS/Sputnik Nižnij Tagil






Nižnij Tagil, 18:15 - 09 settembre 2015 (AGV NEWS)

La maggiore cooperazione militare tra Russia e Pakistan non avrà effetti negativi sulle relazioni tra Mosca e Nuova Delhi. Lo ha detto il viceministro degli Esteri russo Sergei Ryabkov. Mosca e Islamabad sono attualmente in trattative per la fornitura di elicotteri multiruolo russi Mi-35M e degli ultimi jet da combattimento Su-35. “Non credo che i contatti in discussione causeranno gelosia da parte di una delle due parti”, ha detto ai giornalisti Ryabkov aggiungendo che i legami tra i paesi sono in continua evoluzione, non solo militare ma anche in altri settori, compreso quello energetico.

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets. "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists. Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy. Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.

Russia, viceministro Esteri: cooperazione con Pakistan non minaccia relazioni con India (09 set 2015) - ilVelino/AGV NEWS



Translation

Russia, Deputy Foreign Affairs: Cooperation with Pakistan does not threaten relations with India


Moscow and Islamabad are currently in negotiations for the supply of multi-role helicopters, Russian Mi-35M and the last fighter jet Su-35

The increased military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have negative effects on relations between Moscow and New Delhi. This was stated by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in negotiations for the supply of multi-role helicopters, Russian Mi-35M and the last fighter jet Su-35. "I do not think that the contacts in question will cause jealousy on the part of either party," Ryabkov told reporters adding that the ties between the countries are evolving, not only military but also in other sectors, including energy.

Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday. Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets. "I do not think That the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov Told journalists. Pakistan is Russia's closest partners, Ryabkov said, adding That the two countries' ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy. Relations between India and Pakistan sono stati strained since the end of British rule seven Decades August They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 Following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have accused each other of Repeatedly Violating the truce.


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## araz

Dalit said:


> Can't even disagree on a single sentence. Howeerver, it takes two to tango. The Indians have been offered countless opportunities under the leadership of Nawaz Sharif to mend ties even to the displeasure of many including me. India didn't take this opportunity, but instead its army opted to flare up tensions at the border regions. We all know this. Whilst we all want peace and prosperity between both nations, India being the bigger nation needs to get off the high horse and accept the ground realities. Find a suitable solution to the Kashmir conflict and stop financing and aiding terror on Pakistani soil.


Agreed. I think the rhetoric has been stronger on the Indian side than on Pakistani side.However as it happens the interference is on a "tit for tat and a bit more" basis and is from both sides.Strategically India has such a vast territory and different regions vying for independence, it cannot afford to add to it. There is also a very blatant element of passing the buck when it comes to adverse outcomes. Anything wrong in Pakistan has invariably got "foreign hands" behind it and vice versa. Look at how the rhetoric has been racked up in India by Modi as he seems incapable of handling the internal crises in India. The Nooras are no different. Till we have sanity prevailing on both sides we wont have peace. Till we dont have peace our defence expenditures and the futility of the Zero sum game will continue. The people will continue to suffer and the kids on the net will thump their chest and eulogize their idiotic and corrupt leaders and arm sales amounting to Billions when for one twentieth of the cost you can do so much more for your country's development

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## Muhammad Omar

*Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India*
© AP Photo/ Francois Mori
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
18:21 09.09.2015Get short URL
363081136
*Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday.*


NIZHNY TAGIL (Russia), September 9 (Sputnik) — Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.


"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.

Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.

Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.



Read more: Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India


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## Muhammad Omar

*Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India*
© AP Photo/ Francois Mori
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
18:21 09.09.2015Get short URL
363081136
*Expansion of military cooperation between Russia and Pakistan will not have any negative effect on relations between Moscow and New Delhi, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday.*


NIZHNY TAGIL (Russia), September 9 (Sputnik) — Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.


"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.

Pakistan is Russia's closest partner, Ryabkov said, adding that the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.

Relations between India and Pakistan have been strained since the end of British rule seven decades ago. They agreed to a ceasefire in 2003 following a number of military conflicts. Both sides have repeatedly accused each other of violating the truce.



Read more: Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India


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## SrNair

Stealth said:


> the fact that as usual Indians Chutya media share this news... where as FM report was published by all international media hahhaha SU yaan F22 mil raha hey kay nahe but tumse bare chutya koom nahe dekhi hahahahha





Lol :lol :
Use some common sense dude.
You can undrdtand basic business .
Russians need our money to maintain that Pak Fa.
We also have our own parallel program like AMCA .
They simply cant ignore a 150 billion $ market.

We have a lots of other option for buying weapons .But for Russia , thry cant just replace Indias place with sme other nation.


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## NIA

Dr. Sen said:


> We are retiring our old helis, maybe we can donate a few to Pakistan,


Wow great idea doctor....Wait shall we give on whole sale price?
And we see if u buy 1 santoor soap u get a pen free...then what about pakistan what u will give them..a lollypop?

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## Indus Falcon

Dr. Sen said:


> Yes I agree we have problems, but so do you. Even with all these problems we are conventionally supirior.
> 
> You say our military is falling apart, demoralised? Well 90,000 of your great soldiers surrendered to our 'demoralised army'. This demoralised army divided your country in half.
> 
> Look, we have multiple aircraft carriers, nuke subs, direct energy weapons development, space technology etc, now you think these are also delusions?
> 
> Even if half of our military gets blown up, still we will have supiriority.



See this is the problem with trolls like you, you worry about fighting with us, but your delusions blind you so much that you cannot even see how half baked you are!

Did you bother reading why your Army is committing suicides? Or why huffing and puffing the *Indian Army lost nearly 2,000 men without Pakistan firing a single bullet. *Or why they go rapeing thier own citizens? 

Since you want to indulge in blind jingoism, please do so and show the world how stupid you really are!

Reality is, this is your Army today:

Militancy Strikes Back In India’s Northeast | The Diplomat

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/39f0ceea-2dc1-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#slide0

RAW, IB were in denial on Kargil intelligence failure: ex-Army chief

Sex and the armed forces -The New Indian Express

*Army Fake Encounter Case: Latest News, Photos, Videos on Army Fake Encounter Case - NDTV.COM*
*
Indian army suicides blamed on 'poor leadership' - BBC News

Sukna land scam: Lt Gen Avadesh Prakash found guilty, dismissed from service - The Times of India

Kargil coffin scam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

UFO Sightings At Indo-China Border Leave Indian Army Astounded

3 Teenagers Gang Raped in Assam and Gurgaon

1,000 Chinese Soldiers Cross India's Border as Xi Jinping Visits Region

Now please continue with your rants!*

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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> 4 is initial batch once got these than others will come automatically



tell me if you were a defnce contractor and you have a regular & old coustmer who happens to be your biggest buyer of your goods will you sell the same products to his compatitor when you already have some very big and leucrative deals in process and many in shipment stages ?

same is the case here india has already signed a deal worth billions regarding light and medium helies with russia and is the biggest coustmer of mig-29s & su-30 family owtside russia .... do you realli thing russia will let go such an important coustmer just because pakistan intends to buy (as per you) 10 attack helies (obsolete) and some 3 squads of su-35 when russia is already in talks with much much more with india + russia knows the wavelenth between new delhi and islamabad .... patriotism is great but logic is greater


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## Guynextdoor2

RAMPAGE said:


> Insecurity ki bhi koi hadd hoti hai!





Zarvan said:


> India needs to learn they can't stop growing Pakistan and Russia relations the sooner they realize it the better for them.



Beta, the Russians are right now sitting on deals from India the size of Pakistan's GDP. They had better make sure that they don't screw arounf with our enemies in return for some chicken-shit deal from you.



lastofthepatriots said:


> Russia won't sell, but I'm sure plenty of other countries will. Their loss.



Nothing in comparison to what they will lose form India.


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## Dr. Sen

NIA said:


> Wow great idea doctor....Wait shall we give on whole sale price?
> And we see if u buy 1 santoor soap u get a pen free...then what about pakistan what u will give them..a lollypop?



Na re yaar, free pe donate karte hai. Anyways they spend huge amount of GDP on defence while ignoring their population.

Their litteracy rate droped 2% to 58% now. They are the only country with Polio.

Lets help them out, free pe de dete hai.


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## Pindi Boy

Dr. Sen said:


> We are retiring our old helis, maybe we can donate a few to Pakistan,





GURU DUTT said:


> tell me if you were a defnce contractor and you have a regular & old coustmer who happens to be your biggest buyer of your goods will you sell the dsame products to his compatitor when you already have some very big and leucrative deals in process and many in shipment stages ?
> 
> same is the case here india has already signed a deal worth billions regarding light and medium helies with russia and is the biggest coustmer of mig-39s & su-30 family owtside russia .... do you realli thing russia will let go such an important coustmer just because pakistan intends to buy (as per you) 10 attack helies (obsolete) and some 3 squads of su-35 when russia is already in talks with much much more with india + russia knows the wavelenth between new delhi and islamabad .... patriotism is great but logic is greater


As india is going towards america russia is comig closser to pakistan


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## Spectre

araz said:


> Sarcasm aside, I don't think it makes a damn difference to the Indo pak conflict scenario.It may make things a little bit more expensive for India as the move will need to be countered. However, if either party feels at all threatened by the buildup of the other, the nuclear threshold will be lowered. So it will be a case of "if we go we will take you with us". So while kids will get excited on either side while squeezing their pimples, the older ones amongst us will raise an eye brow and a groan and a hope that one day both the countries will see the light of the day, resolve their differences, open up the borders to free trade and resolve to spend their meagre resources on the betterment of the hungry and naked shelterless masses that inhabit both the countries.
> Araz



There is no scenario I can envision in which, any of the expensive war toys will be used in India - Pak conflict. There are multiple safeguards built in at multiple level in India- Pakistan relationship to prevent precisely the conditions which would necessitate their usage which would preclude a Nuclear War. Rest is all gravy for the masses.

If Pakistan is buying SU-35 with a non India specific role like bombing the crap out of Talibanis and other scum inside their borders then it's good, however I have limited understanding of how well these jets are suited for that role.

With respect to build-up on India side I have a sneaking suspicion that it is smoke and mirrors. Year after year high proportion of defense money is returned to Finance Ministry unspent. Deals drag on for years, projects are being perpetually extended. Whatever actual acquisition you see are not even Pakistan specific. Now it can all be due to immense and unprecedented in-competence and complete lack of interest in National Security or it can be a very clever dis-information war at the expense of poor French and likes to force Pakistan into an arms race.

Clearly Pakistan is not taking the bait as evidenced by it's similar lack of high profile acquisition for years. These SU-35 plans are in clear response to India's forward momentum towards Rafale Deal, when that stops any news of SU35 will stop too.

I think, not enough credit is given to the governments on both sides. That is just my contrarian view though.

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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> As india is going towards america russia is comig closser to pakistan


says who we still flying close to 210 MKIs while 62+42 more on order even if you foregt 63+45 Mig29s lets not even talk about Mil-17-V5


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## NIA

SrNair said:


> Lol :lol :
> Use some common sense dude.
> You can undrdtand basic business .
> Russians need our money to maintain that Pak Fa.
> We also have our own parallel program like AMCA .
> They simply cant ignore a 150 billion $ market.
> 
> We have a lots of other option for buying weapons .But for Russia , thry cant just replace Indias place with sme other nation.


They won't understand simple logic..its waste...just praise them and give them candy..they will be happy.


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## aliyusuf

volatile said:


> O bhai wait ker lo thora sa F-16 in start was always considers to be a failed project look where it stands now .Iagree Americans are stupid but not that stupid putting all eggs in one basket .F35 needs to replance F16,F18,F15 just like JF17 replaces A5,Mirages,F7s as JF is way superior to these similarly F35 in time will kick butt



The F-35's edge is in its Stealth / Low Observability, An/APG-81 Advanced AESA radar, EOTS, IRST and Sensor Fusion. Which equates to always having the ability to shoot first. Its strength is BVR. No one is challenging that.

I am not denying that it will do quite well when it can achieve what it needs to achieve on the basis of these features. But apart from that it is falling short of targeted field performance specs.

Some of the issues it is facing are quite fundamental and not just teething problems. If one goes thru the podcast entirely, one would find that is exactly what is being discussed. The Flightglobal link was to emphasis the same point. You don't lower the performance bar specs for just teething problems.

BTW for whatever issues it may have encountered in its development cycle, the F-16 was never accused of being an under-achiever or a Pig like JSF is referred to by some

*I am reproducing this from a post in another forum ...*



> Just keep in mind that most of the critics of the F-35 are Americans, like this former Eagle and Viper USAF instructor in an interview:
> 
> Q: Will the F-35's sensor fusion and low observability (stealth) allow it to overcome its lackluster maneuverability and kinetic performance against future enemies?
> 
> A: I can't answer this one. I can ask, "Why did they make it such a pig?"
> 
> Q: If you had to fly any fighter into an air combat arena today, including an operational F-35A as an option, what would it be?
> 
> A: The F-22. It's a better jet than the F-35. It can carry at least as much, further and faster. If it was up to me I'd cancel the F-35 and start building more Raptors. A common counter to that is the cost to restart the F-22 assembly line. How much does one pig cost? Another is that the F-35 program is too far along. Yep, let's just keep paying for a poorly-managed, overly expensive fighter that has three versions that make any one version less than it could be. Can you say F-111? That the F-35's avionics are better than the F-22's; how about a Raptor upgrade? I'd also build more advanced versions of the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> Q: If you had a wish list of three things that you think the USAF fighter community needs more than anything else, and currently do not have, what would it be?
> 
> A: Number 1: AESA radar for the F-16. A force multiplier.
> 
> Number 2: Better offensive jamming and better defensive systems.
> 
> Number 3: More DACT (dissimilar air combat training—flying against different types of fighters than the one you fly). There are students who show up as Weapons School students who have never done a 4 versus 4 DACT mission. I was doing them as an F-15 student at Luke. I could write a short thesis on this subject.


.


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## NIA

Dr. Sen said:


> Na re yaar, free pe donate karte hai. Anyways they spend huge amount of GDP on defence while ignoring their population.
> 
> Their litteracy rate droped 2% to 58% now. They are the only country with Polio.
> 
> Lets help them out, free pe de dete hai.


I am member of GITAM Rotary club..if islambad gives me permission I will help other polio workers for CERTIFACTE by GOV of india...Which is great use for me during Campus recuitment


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## GURU DUTT

can some indian member give me a list of russian arms in indian defnce forces and the deals already on order plus the potential arms deals between india and russia


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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> says who we still flying close to 210 MKIs while 62+42 more on order even if you foregt 63+45 Mig29s lets not even talk about Mil-17-V5


Russia sells a shitload of weapons to China, which are very likely to end up being used against India, these weapons include S-400 missiles, Su-27s and what not and that does not seem to have jeapordised Russian-Indian relationship. So surely Russia can sell it's best weapons to Pakistan without any conscience issues.

That being said, Pakistan may be reluctant to buy these Su-35's since buying them does not make any sense. The lesser variety of planes you fly, the easier the training of new recruits, the cheaper the logistics and maintenance.


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## batmannow

SinoSoldier said:


> China does Russia's gas-dependent economy far more of a favor by signing long-term energy deals than buying a measly few dozen fighter aircraft. So far the "reports" that have propagated through the Internet have not only failed to materialize after many years, but have been denied by the governments of both countries.


I think you need to open your eyes properly , have a tooth brush & then look at the news its coming from deputy FM of Russia not of somalia ?


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## Dr. Sen

NIA said:


> I am member of GITAM Rotary club..if islambad gives me permission I will help other polio workers for CERTIFACTE by GOV of india...Which is great use for me during Campus recuitment



While you are at it, open a few schools there, if let alone their litteracy rate will drop further. We must help our brothers across the border.


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## nForce

lastofthepatriots said:


> Russia won't sell, but I'm sure plenty of other countries will. Their loss.


provided you have money to buy. Who will finance your arms purchase ? World Bank ? China ?

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## Pindi Boy

Pakistan should grab these planes ASAP if on offer and give all those Indians who yap about Pakistan not having enough money/resources a proverbial middle finger. Pakistan is way more important for Russia than India due to it's immense geo-strategic importance, vast untapped resources, deeper,sweeter,higher best friendship with China in addition to CPEC which is going to completely transform Pakistan.

It is good that Pakistan waited for so long before inducting a modern twin engine fighter jet, now Pakistan has an opportunity to get it's hand on a true beast which is going to have Rafales and SU-30 MKIs for breakfast and not even burp.
Doesn't matter how much they cost as it gives an unparalleled capacity to PAF in the subcontinent. Maintenance, spares, operating costs, availability and all the other pesky details can be worked out in leisure, any way Pakistanis are master of Jugad and resourceful innovators.

One in a lifetime opportunity to get Russian's on Pakistan's side and make new global axis of Russia -China - Pakistan

Regards

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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> Russia sells a shitload of weapons to China, which are very likely to end up being used against India, these weapons include S-400 missiles, Su-27s and what not and that does not seem to have jeapordised Russian-Indian relationship. So surely Russia can sell it's best weapons to Pakistan without any conscience issues.
> 
> That being said, Pakistan may be reluctant to buy these Su-35's since buying them does not make any sense. The lesser variety of planes you fly, the easier the training of new recruits, the cheaper the logistics and maintenance.


do ypou have any idea of wepons russia sells to india 

but then no harm in dreaming ..... cheers mate


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## Yaduveer

@GURU DUTT @ranjeet 

Ab to saala Putin bhi aake bole ki nahi de rahe su35 ..chalo daudo 

Tab bhi Pakistanis nahi manane wale..usme main 'Saazish' hi Khojenge.

Desperation guys Desperation..!

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## SrNair

Dalit said:


> Can't even disagree on a single sentence. Howeerver, it takes two to tango. The Indians have been offered countless opportunities under the leadership of Nawaz Sharif to mend ties even to the displeasure of many including me. India didn't take this opportunity, but instead its army opted to flare up tensions at the border regions. We all know this. Whilst we all want peace and prosperity between both nations, India being the bigger nation needs to get off the high horse and accept the ground realities. Find a suitable solution to the Kashmir conflict and stop financing and aiding terror on Pakistani soil.




People of India commands Government of India and the Govt of India commands Indian Armed Forces.So if IA pounds your side LoC it would be under the order of GoI.This is a democratic nation not some kind of puppet regime like in our neighbourhood.

Indian Govt policies are absolutely right.For them Pakistan is just a nuisance .
We Indians had been forsaw this when we elected an absolute majority govt.
Wake up dude Indian foreign policies changed a lot during last two decades.
Our foreign policies horizon expanded a lots such a way that the Pakistan is just another small matter .Thats all.

IAF knows the expense of Su 30 series.With these knd of economy how can you buy a decent one squadron of Su 35.And even if manage one squadron how can you challenge that against 272+ Su 30.


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## My-Analogous

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: *Russia today said* that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com



Is *Russia Today* is Russia foreign ministry spoke person? or they affiliated with Russian Ministry?


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## My-Analogous

Dr. Sen said:


> Dude Mumbai has nearly the *sane* GDP as whole of Pakistan. *Middle finger??* Lol.



First learn how to write English then we see. And middle finger is in your A$$ (i think your are asking its current location)

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## Dalit

SrNair said:


> Lol :lol :
> Use some common sense dude.
> You can undrdtand basic business .
> Russians need our money to maintain that Pak Fa.
> We also have our own parallel program like AMCA .
> They simply cant ignore a 150 billion $ market.
> 
> *We have a lots of other option for buying weapons .But for Russia , thry cant just replace Indias place with sme other nation*.



LOL @ the irreplaceable part... Wake the fvck up and smell the coffee. Every single country is irreplaceable. After so many debacles you still haven't learnt a thing. Don't be too arrogant. It will be your downfall. Your options are for the time being quite gracious. Don't think they always will be. Especially with such an attitude.


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## Dr. Sen

ghazaliy2k said:


> First learn how to write English then we see. And middle finger is in your A$$ (i think your are asking its current location)



Its a typo, but still does not change the fact that a single Indian city is nearly as rich as whole Pakistan.

You all can troll all you want, wont change this fact.


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## Pindi Boy

even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory

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## My-Analogous

SrNair said:


> People of India commands Government of India and the Govt of India commands Indian Armed Forces.So if IA pounds your side LoC it would be under the order of GoI.This is a democratic nation not some kind of puppet regime like in our neighbourhood.
> 
> Indian Govt policies are absolutely right.For them Pakistan is just a nuisance .
> We Indians had been forsaw this when we elected an absolute majority govt.
> Wake up dude Indian foreign policies changed a lot during last two decades.
> Our foreign policies horizon expanded a lots such a way that the Pakistan is just another small matter .Thats all.
> 
> IAF knows the expense of Su 30 series.With these knd of economy how can you buy a decent one squadron of Su 35.And even if manage one squadron how can you challenge that against 272+ Su 30.



You just take care of your nation and leave Pakistan for us and we know batter how to protect our nation and that is why India is still on other side of border

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## hamayunpk

WishLivePak said:


> I think the su is dual engine. Didn't turkey offered us some dual engine for students?
> 
> 
> Why are we going for dual engine and Russian crafts? Focus on getting f16s, make jf better and start working on a 5th/6th gen fighter (they take 10-15 years) or spend money on drone which come out cheaper.


There any many reason to go for Su-35..... Most important of them is the super manuverability. In US made fighters, this only comes in f-22 raptors... unless you can get your hands on one of those bad boys, su-35 is the best alternative. This single features gives it vital advantage in a dog fight and is has a very less maintenence cost.... and this my friend, is just the tip of icebrag what we can get from this monster.


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## Dr. Sen

usama fiaz said:


> even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory



Ok, now explain the history's largest surrender.


----------



## My-Analogous

Dr. Sen said:


> Its a typo, but still does not change the fact that a single Indian city is nearly as rich as whole Pakistan.
> 
> You all can troll all you can, wont change this fact.



We are not Indian to troll and we just reply all your bullshit and some time elephantshit

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## Dr. Sen

ghazaliy2k said:


> We are not Indian to troll and we just reply all your bullshit and some time elephantshit



Now you are just getting aggitated. Relax a bit.

Its not bullshit or even elephantshit that Mumbai is nearly as rich as whole Pakistan. Its a fact. So whos going all crazy and trolling here?


----------



## Dalit

SrNair said:


> People of India commands Government of India and the Govt of India commands Indian Armed Forces.So if IA pounds your side LoC it would be under the order of GoI.This is a democratic nation not some kind of puppet regime like in our neighbourhood.
> 
> Indian Govt policies are absolutely right.For them Pakistan is just a nuisance .
> We Indians had been forsaw this when we elected an absolute majority govt.
> Wake up dude Indian foreign policies changed a lot during last two decades.
> Our foreign policies horizon expanded a lots such a way that the Pakistan is just another small matter .Thats all.
> 
> IAF knows the expense of Su 30 series.With these knd of economy how can you buy a decent one squadron of Su 35.And even if manage one squadron how can you challenge that against 272+ Su 30.



Do you really think we Pakistanis give a crap about India or its policies? You're a different country and we're a different country. We have our own set of culture, norms and values and you have yours. Thank God for that. For Pakistan India is irrelevant and insignificant apart from the Kashmir issue.

Having said that, you seek peace and stability? We're all for it. You seek war and instability? Bring it on. It's all up to you.

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## GURU DUTT

Yaduveer said:


> @GURU DUTT @ranjeet
> 
> Ab to saala Putin bhi aake bole ki nahi de rahe su35 ..chalo daudo
> 
> Tab bhi Pakistanis nahi manane wale..usme main 'Saazish' hi Khojenge.
> 
> Desperation guys Desperation..!


bhai ab wo bhi kya karre 

yoon to jannat ki haqeeqat hame maloom hai lekin dil behlane ko khayal achha hai  

desparation ka alam ye ki maloom hai ki su-35/Mig35 to door second hand F-16s kharedne ke bhi paise nahi per kya karren kambhakt......... 



usama fiaz said:


> even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory


is this thread about east pakistan ? 

is this thread about past indo pak wars ? 

or is this your frustation and when having nothing to argue urge to derail a thread ?

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## #hydra#

SrNair said:


> People of India commands Government of India and the Govt of India commands Indian Armed Forces.So if IA pounds your side LoC it would be under the order of GoI.This is a democratic nation not some kind of puppet regime like in our neighbourhood.
> 
> Indian Govt policies are absolutely right.For them Pakistan is just a nuisance .
> We Indians had been forsaw this when we elected an absolute majority govt.
> Wake up dude Indian foreign policies changed a lot during last two decades.
> Our foreign policies horizon expanded a lots such a way that the Pakistan is just another small matter .Thats all.
> 
> IAF knows the expense of Su 30 series.With these knd of economy how can you buy a decent one squadron of Su 35.And even if manage one squadron how can you challenge that against 272+ Su 30.


Su 35 is Superior to our MKI ,and if pak gets few 35s in future then definitely it will give big headache to us.


----------



## SrNair

Dalit said:


> LOL @ the irreplaceable part... Wake the fvck up and smell the coffee. Every single country is irreplaceable. After so many debacles you still haven't learnt a thing. Don't be too arrogant. It will be your downfall. Your options are for time being broad. Don't think they always will be.





Give me the name of a single nation that have a market equivalent to us.
Or are you trying to talk about Pakistan ?
Fact is India and China are the biggest market of Russian weapons .China is already on their way to self reliance and exporting.Then remains the India.
We wont go for a confrontation with Pakistan but we have a lots of ther option to expand our role.Russians cant even imagine to lose our market ,Indian Market,during these sanction times(we are still independent )Reason is simple .We have resources and also a big nation.
for you that is a bitter reality.
Deal with it


----------



## GURU DUTT

#hydra# said:


> Su 35 is Superior to our MKI ,and pak got few 35s then definitely it will give big headache to us.



sure but they first need russia to agree to it and then arrange for money as russians dont beleve in "soft loans/defferred payment schemes" russians onli deal in terms of hard cash

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## My-Analogous

Dr. Sen said:


> Now you are just getting aggitated. Relax a bit.
> 
> Its not bullshit or even elephantshit that Mumbai is nearly as rich as whole Pakistan. Its a fact. So whos going all crazy and trolling here?



If truth is troll for you then Get well soon. I pray for you

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## SrNair

ghazaliy2k said:


> You just take care of your nation and leave Pakistan for us and we know batter how to protect our nation and that is why India is still on other side of border




You should also tell your leaders to stop these obsessive comments and infiltrating jobless kids in to our soil.


----------



## untitled

Dr. Sen said:


> Ok, now explain the history's largest surrender.



You explain why are you returning our pigeon with an olive branch in its beak (in your pic)

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## untitled

If PDF had existed back in the early 90s we would have had a similar thread about the French mirages back then

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## My-Analogous

SrNair said:


> You should also tell your leaders to stop these obsessive comments and infiltrating jobless kids in to our soil.



Same to you and it is accepted by your PM and they intrude Pakistan.

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## Dr. Sen

ghazaliy2k said:


> If truth is troll for you then Get well soon. I pray for you



Good that you accept the truth that a single city of ours is nearly as rich as your whole country. 

I always accepted this truth, but still who am I to turn down a well-wisher.


----------



## GURU DUTT

persona_non_grata said:


> You explain why are you returning our pigeon with an olive branch in its beak (in your pic)


well we are evil yaindoos and we have learned some great pigeon recipies from some western nations of late


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## My-Analogous

Dr. Sen said:


> Good that you accept the truth that a single city of ours is nearly as rich as your whole country.
> 
> I always accepted this truth, but still who am I to turn down a well-wisher.



Good to see that you accept that you guys trolling all the time


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## lastofthepatriots

If you re-read the article, the Russians didn't say they wouldn't sell it, either.

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## Dr. Sen

Looks like the facts which I shared here raised the BP of many Pakistanis.

I will go before you all perform another mass surrender.


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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> well we are evil yaindoos and we have learned some great pigeon recipies from some western nations of late



Can we send some more

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## SrNair

Dalit said:


> Do you really think we Pakistanis give a crap about India or its policies? You're a different country and we're a different country. We have our own set of culture, norms and values and you have yours. Thank God for that. For Pakistan India is irrelevant and insignificant apart from the Kashmir issue.
> 
> Having said that, you seek peace and stability? We're all for it. You seek war and instability? Bring it on. It's all up to you.


Dude you need to realise one thing .
We dont have any time to waste for a small obsessive ,unreliable nation across the border.GoI diplomacy is pointing to that fact.
Perhaps old gen might did that.But current gen didnt even ask you whether you are our culture or not.In fact theydont cares that.
You are just another nation.If you give respectable opinion abot a subject we will recognize tha .Otherwise we wont even care about it .

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## Irfan Baloch

Donatello said:


> Why did the Deputy FM make the comments then?


he was trolling
I knew it

I am sure the Russian embassy in India will issue him an infraction and 1 week ban

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## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


> Can we send some more


sure sure waise bhi pigeon meat tastes much better than bater

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## NIA

Dr. Sen said:


> Lets help them out, free pe de dete hai.


At least 10% lena padega..kyu ki hamne inti mushkil se ine maintain kiya hai


GURU DUTT said:


> well we are evil yaindoos and we have learned some great pigeon recipies from some western nations of late


oh my god we are spoiling LAND OF PURE!!!...

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## GURU DUTT

Irfan Baloch said:


> he was trolling
> I knew it
> 
> I am sure the Russian embassy in India will issue him an infraction and 1 week ban


 are you trying to bully me saeen ji


----------



## NIA

AtiF Malang said:


> Yaar an ambassador to certain country try to keep that country happy and dreaming so that to get some business for his own country .
> Let the indian enjoy
> Name india is feminine so is the behaviour of indians .
> 
> Poor dehati aurat


When did ISRO signed a deal to bring alien like u to earth from mars?


----------



## Dalit

SrNair said:


> Give me the name of a single nation that have a market equivalent to us.
> Or are you trying to talk about Pakistan ?
> Fact is India and China are the biggest market of Russian weapons .China is already on their way to self reliance and exporting.Then remains the India.
> We wont go for a confrontation with Pakistan but we have a lots of ther option to expand our role.Russians cant even imagine to lose our market ,Indian Market,during these sanction times(we are still independent )Reason is simple .We have resources and also a big nation.
> for you that is a bitter reality.
> Deal with it



Get off the high horse buddy. India is playing both sides of the Atlantic. Even the Americans know this, but for the time being they need you as an ineffective counter against China. India has started to think too much of itself after a few billionaires have become a little richer whilst the rest are starving. The ground realities in India are very different and people who understand and know this country also realize this. You need to put your egoistic patriotism and nationalism aside for a moment. India isn't that great. Fix your problems and stop convincing us how great you are.

India is not the only country on this planet and Pakistan is by now means a dwarf in comparison. In fact, your size isn't only an advantage, but also a disadvantage. As they say, every advantage has its disadvantage and vice versa. Let's not get into the debate about who has a bigger market size. Had market size really been such an advantage, other smaller and much more prosperous nations around the world wouldn't be richer and peaceful as compared to the much bigger India. Therefore, this size argument is very outdated and does by no means justify or prove anything. It's a flawed argument only meant to spoil a topic.

You keep your "bitter realities" to yourself because like I said, India is irrelevant to Pakistan. We understand your obsession with Pakistan. We also understand why you Indians come to this Pakistani forum to argue and fight. If there's anyone bitter here it is only you. You're desperate and constantly trying to prove how right you are. You're not man and we don't care. LOL

Now, deal with the reality that Pakistani relations are improving rapidly with Russia. That means yummy Su-35's and many others shiny toys for Pakistan. Also, first try to get your MMRCA deal sorted out before lecturing us about your self invented "bitter facts". The last time I heard you were still quarrelling about a handful of Rafale fighters. Deal with that if you can.

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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> sure sure waise bhi pigeon meat tastes much better than bater



We invented new dish it is called *spy*see Rajistani Pigeon

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## lastofthepatriots

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Beta, the Russians are right now sitting on deals from India the size of Pakistan's GDP. They had better make sure that they don't screw arounf with our enemies in return for some chicken-shit deal from you.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing in comparison to what they will lose form India.




Of course. The Russians will never sell out their ally and brother India. 







You guys need to back to kissing *** like this If you want to make sure though.

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## AtiF Malang

Don't act like dehati aurat . All this trash was started by a hindustani Dr. Sen . 



GURU DUTT said:


> is this thread about indian army ?
> 
> is this thread about indo pak wars ?
> 
> is this thread about bangladesh or genocide of bengalies in east pakistan?
> 
> mods sir please take a look here some guys when running owt of argument are trying to derail this thread


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## gau8av

realistically, Pakistan will have to do with whatever the Americans make available to them (f-16 and choppers, the rest of the catalogue is not for sale) and with Chinese goods, everything else remains out of bounds, forget about Russian jets, the Eurofighter is too expensive, they can _maybe _shoot for the Gripen, otherwise the super tucano is about it, which is a great little bird for killing al qaeda and taliban jihadis.


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## Irfan Baloch

GURU DUTT said:


> are you trying to bully me saeen ji


are you Russian foreign minster? if yes then be prepared to get infraction by Russian Ambassador


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## nForce

usama fiaz said:


> Pakistan should grab these planes ASAP if on offer and give all those Indians who yap about Pakistan not having enough money/resources a proverbial middle finger. Pakistan is way more important for Russia than India due to it's immense geo-strategic importance, vast untapped resources, deeper,sweeter,higher best friendship with China in addition to CPEC which is going to completely transform Pakistan.
> 
> It is good that Pakistan waited for so long before inducting a modern twin engine fighter jet, now Pakistan has an opportunity to get it's hand on a true beast which is going to have Rafales and SU-30 MKIs for breakfast and not even burp.
> Doesn't matter how much they cost as it gives an unparalleled capacity to PAF in the subcontinent. Maintenance, spares, operating costs, availability and all the other pesky details can be worked out in leisure, any way Pakistanis are master of Jugad and resourceful innovators.
> 
> One in a lifetime opportunity to get Russian's on Pakistan's side and make new global axis of Russia -China - Pakistan
> 
> Regards




Such passion...


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## GURU DUTT

Irfan Baloch said:


> are you Russian foreign minster? if yes then be prepared to get infraction by Russian Ambassador


im not russian but a miskin paleed yaindoo baniya and all the mods of PDF are so mean to me


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## 21 Dec 2012

Irfan Baloch said:


> are you Russian foreign minster? if yes then be prepared to get infraction by Russian Ambassador


Is there a direct quote by the *Dy. *Foreign Minister that Pakistan is buying Su-35?

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## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


> We invented new dish it is called *spy*see Rajistani Pigeon


trust me sirji you havented tasted the desi indian shikar kabootar recepie

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## lastofthepatriots

India is always playing the dehati aurat.

Another example:






 This is what israelis really think of you bhartis.



Money doesn't buy respect.

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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> trust me sirji you havented tasted the desi indian shikar kabootar recepie



It is good to see you pick my joke. Normally i received troll

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## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


> It is good to see you pick my joke. Normally i received troll


trolling se yaad aya russian foreign minister trolled all hub bul watan pakistanies big time

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## SrNair

Dalit said:


> Get off the high horse buddy. India is playing both sides of the Atlantic. Even the Americans know this, but for the time being they need you as an ineffective counter against China. India has started to think too much of itself after a few billionaires have become a little richer whilst the rest are starving. The ground realities in India are very different and people who understand and know this country also realize this. You need to put your egoistic patriotism and nationalism aside for a moment. India isn't that great. Fix your problems and stop convincing us how great you are.
> 
> India is not the only country on this planet and Pakistan is by now means a dwarf in comparison. In fact, your size isn't only an advantage, but also a disadvantage. As they say, every advantage has its disadvantage and vice versa. Let's not get into the debate about who has a bigger market size. Had market size really been such an advantage, other smaller and much more prosperous nations around the world wouldn't be richer and peaceful as compared to the much bigger India. Therefore, this size argument is very outdated and does by no means justify or prove anything. It's a flawed argument only meant to spoil a topic.
> 
> You keep your "bitter realities" to yourself because like I said, India is irrelevant to Pakistan. We understand your obsession with Pakistan. We also understand why you Indians come to this Pakistani forum to argue and fight. If there's anyone bitter here it is only you. You're desperate and constantly trying to prove how right you are. You're not man and we don't care. LOL




Lol  
So much emotions.
A big country world largest growing economy.
Un like you we have our own decision and relations with entire World.


50 members from 1.3 billion doesnt represent India.
What is your accomplishment in S&T,economic,social fields ?Then what is this onsession ?

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## Dalit

SrNair said:


> Lol
> So much emotions.
> A big country world largest growing economy.
> Un like you we have our own decision and relations with entire World.
> 
> 
> 50 members from 1.3 billion doesnt represent India.
> What is your accomplishment in S&T,economic,social fields ?Then what is this onsession ?



Like I said, you're the one here trying to desperately convince us about how right you are. We don't care about your silly facts. Spare us your lecture and move on buddy.

LMAO We don't care about India or its 1.5 billion population. You might get high on that, but irrelevant to the rest of the world. Feed them bro. We would all be very glad. Do something useful instead of quarrelling all the time.


----------



## drunken-monke

Paksanity said:


> You can't ditch them completely. I are buyer of weapons so are reliant on them. You can either buy all western or a mix. Your economy is not strong enough to buy all western. Case in point Rafale deal. You could buy 230 MKIs but could you afford 230 Rafales? No. Barely 36 of them. So there is that.


You need to understand the buying cost and lifecycle cost.. Russian aircraft comes at a less off the shelf price, but at a greater lifecycle cost.. The deal of Rafale is more cheaper than MKI if considered the life-cycle cost and operational availability.. we had a good experience with migs and M2ks..

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## elitepilot09

SrNair said:


> Lol
> So much emotions.
> A big country world largest growing economy.
> Un like you we have our own decision and relations with entire World.
> 
> 
> 50 members from 1.3 billion doesnt represent India.
> What is your accomplishment in S&T,economic,social fields ?Then what is this onsession ?



Please?? Why are you here?? 10k + posts and you still post utter rubbish like this and troll threads with 1.3 billion blah blah and accomplishment nonsense? Stop derailing the thread and get a life please.

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## #hydra#

GURU DUTT said:


> sure but they first need russia to agree to it and then arrange for money as russians dont beleve in "soft loans/defferred payment schemes" russians onli deal in terms of hard cash


My main worry is about the offer,and this offer was announced by a Russian minister not by their embassy officers. Russia may or may not sell 35 or pak may or may not go for this powerful bird now, but this situation shows us that we lost our grip on Russians and pak- Russia defence cooperation is reality and is growing day by day. In future definitely Russia will sell something deadly.

All these happened because we alligned with US( an unpredictable non trusty nation) and spoil brat IAF's love affair with the expensive french jet( I still believe that it's a good plat form against PAF but not against china). Unfortunately we lost a trusty companion in world politics only because of the mistake what we made in recent times.

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> why should indians be botherred about pakistan getting "4Mi-35s"
> 
> he he he he are your serous
> 
> what if i told you we are opretaing M-35 /mi-25 since two decades if not more and now are "retiring" them from owr service but then no har in dreaming



India has retired or is about to retire its MI 35 Hind helis as they are too heavy to be used in high zone conflicts

lol your smiley are always cool

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> India has retired or is about to retire its MI 35 Hind helis as they are too heavy to be used in high zone conflicts
> 
> lol your smiley are always cool


but they dont want to understand that if any how it has an indian angel .... dont know if you have seen movie called reshma aur shera there was a scene in that movie of certain mela and about jalebies take a look there im sure you will know what im saying

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## Dalit

#hydra# said:


> My main worry is about the offer,and this offer was announced by a Russian minister not by their embassy officers. Russia may or may not sell 35 or pak may or may not go for this powerful bird now, but this situation shows us that we lost our grip on Russians and pak- Russia defence cooperation is reality and is growing day by day. In future definitely Russia will sell something deadly.
> 
> All these happened because we alligned with US( an unpredictable non trusty nation) and spoil brat IAF's love affair with the expensive french jet( I still believe that it's a good plat form against PAF but not against china). Unfortunately we lost a trusty companion in world politics only because of the mistake what we made in recent times.



Like you didn't know. We have been telling you this for years that this was bound to happen. Every Indian laughed it off like it was some joke. Today the facts speak for themselves. You're either with the US/West or you're with the other side. There is no in between. Like I said, you cannot have the best of both worlds no matter how much you would like that to be the case. The world doesn't work like that. India has chosen for the US and that means consequences.

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> trolling se yaad aya russian foreign minister trolled all hub bul watan pakistanies big time


Don`t worry , it`s pressure tactics on US lobby in India whose prime goal is to replace Russia as main supplier for Indian armed forces. Since US is not going to sell most modern weaponry to Pakistan (not because of India) , idea is that Russia might which will firmly put India`s generals to stay faithful to Russian arms. Arms market competition is not for gentlemen and often is hard bargain and trade off.


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## gau8av

persona_non_grata said:


> If PDF had existed back in the early 90s we would have had a similar thread about the French mirages back then


nope, it was a whole different world back then, in fact PAF had tech tech edge over IAF.

and now not only is that edge lost, PAF are so far behind there is no scope of ever catching up.


----------



## Ind4Ever

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com



Good ! India should keep calm and watch this new development between Russia and Pakistan .


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## New Resolve

wow I had no idea Indians are so insecure about Pak Russia relations, we have struck a nerve here, so when is that Rafale contract being signed. We should thank the French, not only are they robbing the injuns blind, they are also opening a door for us.



gau8av said:


> nope, it was a whole different world back then, in fact PAF had tech tech edge over IAF.
> 
> and now not only is that edge lost, PAF are so far behind there is no scope of ever catching up.




Which edge are you talking about, the one that is antiquated (migs)

Or the Edge thats mounted on the trailer (Tejas)

or that edge that is down for repairs half the time (SU30's)

enjoy your edge.

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## Dalit

gau8av said:


> nope, it was a whole different world back then, in fact PAF had tech tech edge over IAF.
> 
> and now not only is that edge lost, PAF are so far behind there is no scope of ever catching up.



Is that why you come to this forum to constantly lecture us about your insecurities? We know what our strength and weaknesses are. You should know yours. As a matter of fact, in this war no one will emerge as a winner. Whether you have Su-35's or Rafale's. That's one fact that you need to get through your skull. Get off the high horse and stop smoking curry weed.


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## gau8av

New Resolve said:


> enjoy your edge.


we are, thank you


----------



## Guynextdoor2

lastofthepatriots said:


> Of course. The Russians will never sell out their ally and brother India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys need to back to kissing *** like this If you want to make sure though.



Poor people don't understand how this works.....


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Poor people don't understand how this works.....




Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.


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## Windjammer

*The Russians for the same effort could have issued a statement denying outright that any such talks were taking place with Pakistan, instead they just patted India with some diplomatic pleasantries. *

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## lastofthepatriots

Windjammer said:


> *The Russians for the same effort could have issued a statement denying outright that any such talks were taking place with Pakistan, instead they just patted India with some diplomatic pleasantries. *




But But, Indians are the masters of diplomatic posturing...

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## haviZsultan

This proves Russia is a much better ally than the US. Throughout the last few years US has become the largest supplier of weapons to India. Did they care how Pakistan would feel (nor did we protest)? This is why I constantly say US is a traitor more than an ally. It is surprising that we didn't even protest things like the US India nuclear deal which is a direct attack on us. It signifies that the US accepts India as a nuclear power while crying about Iran and Pakistan. The same deal has been denied to us. So there is a certain, clear bias against us by the US.

We should have sought a better relationship with Russia/Soviet Union right from the beginning. US has its demands, constant demands in fact. To build a working relationship we have to provide them something, unlike China. 

Chinas ties with Russia are improving. There is still time, we can use the help of China to align with Russia/China. US is a country of backstabbers. Any country aligned with it has suffered, look at congo or somalia.


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## aliyusuf

@Dalit @New Resolve
Gentlemen, don't waste time on this one. It is not going to change his way of thinking. He and his type come to this forum with purpose to bolster their and insecure egos and take "tafree". Kindly ignore him.

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## ravindra1455

shah1398 said:


> So MI-35s arrival in Pakistan is not a matter of concern for India.Right?Good to know that.


perhaps we Indian persuade them ( Russians )to sell some inferior quality stock to Pakistan, this is in our interest.


----------



## bdslph

see i told you just to piss a little to india


----------



## Dalit

aliyusuf said:


> @Dalit @New Resolve
> Gentlemen, don't waste time on this one. It is not going to change his way of thinking. He and his type come to this forum with purpose to bolster their and insecure egos and take "tafree". Kindly ignore him.



You're right bro. This news is way too important to be wasted by irrelevant discussions.

Can't wait for more news to emerge regarding this amazing development.


----------



## bdslph

Russia wont sale su35 easily and India wont let it happen also


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## Windjammer

lastofthepatriots said:


> But But, Indians are the masters of diplomatic posturing...


As i said, Cherries are not common in sub-continent but the Indians have become expert in Cherry picking, the would twist any tale to suit their logic.....less they forget how the Mi-35 news came out of the blue.

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## Dalit

bdslph said:


> Russia wont sale su35 easily and India wont let it happen also



That remains to be seen. So far I take the word of the Russian deputy FM more seriously. I understand the disbelief by a few, but it is what it is.


----------



## Super Falcon

First of all if it is the case why russia sell weapons to china india also have threats from china too

Second thing if it is the case MI 35 is very renowned Attack helicopter which russia selling to pak


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Reference:Radio Pakistan

National Radio of Pakistan (RADIO PAKISTAN) not some blog from India 

Ryabkov terms Pakistan as Russia's closest partner
Russian Deputy FM says his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.



Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has said that his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.

He told Russian News Agency that both the countries had previously agreed upon delivery of these helicopters and modalities for their delivey are being finalized.

The Russian Minister termed Pakistan as close partner of his country hoping that cooperation between the countries will further grow various fields as well including energy.






The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth


----------



## aliyusuf

Dalit said:


> You're right bro. This news is way too important to be wasted by irrelevant discussions.
> 
> Can't wait for more news to emerge regarding this amazing development.



My advice to you on this would be "Don't hold your breath". This is going to be a long protracted process. Ground breaking even. The real good news is that the day has come that a possible sale of the best production fighter in Russia is even being discussed with Pakistan. That is the point everyone is missing. Things between Russia and Pakistan are going to improve even further. Some time is needed for this. The strategic location and importance of the Gwadar deep water port and CPEC is one of the major factors (among other) which is going to bring about this improvement in relationship b/w Pakistan & Russia.


----------



## shah1398

ravindra1455 said:


> perhaps we Indian persuade them ( Russians )to sell some inferior quality stock to Pakistan, this is in our interest.



Thanx.But


----------



## Mr.Nair

Windjammer said:


> *One thing is for certain, if you see some smoke in PDF, you can be sure, it's some Indian A$$es on fire.
> *


How dare you can post your picture !

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## Last Samuri

If you get the SU35 from Russia.

I WILL PUBLICALLY APOLOGISE

But I am 99% certain this is going in the same direction as the J10B purchase & J31 purchase & MORE block 52 purchase.

ROAD TO NOW WHERE

IN THE MEAN TIME this is want a flanker fleet looks like


----------



## My-Analogous

drunken-monke said:


> You need to understand the buying cost and lifecycle cost.. Russian aircraft comes at a less off the shelf price, but at a greater lifecycle cost.. The deal of Rafale is more cheaper than MKI if considered the life-cycle cost and operational availability.. we had a good experience with migs and M2ks..



You are correct and Russian hardware operating cost + maintenance time is nightmare compare to westerns but now Russians are focusing these issues. The problem was no investment for over 20 years on these hardware's.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

lastofthepatriots said:


> Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.



Your is far worse actually. And no one even bothers to give it a middle finger. To match the Su 30 nnis. you'll need 2 years worth of your entire defence budget.


----------



## Last Samuri

THIS IS WHAT THE FLANKER IS ALL ABOUT ENJOY

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## bdslph

Dalit said:


> That remains to be seen. So far I take the word of the Russian deputy FM more seriously. I understand the disbelief by a few, but it is what it is.



yes i do but it is so big jump they just started relationship and from mi35 jump to su35 
lets see where it goes 

but i do support ffor Pakistan to go for the Su35


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Windjammer said:


> *The Russians for the same effort could have issued a statement denying outright that any such talks were taking place with Pakistan, instead they just patted India with some diplomatic pleasantries. *



our deal for Pak Fa is twice your annual defence budget. What makes you think they'll want to piss us off...wind breaker?


----------



## SrNair

Dalit said:


> Like I said, you're the one here trying to desperately convince us about how right you are. We don't care about your silly facts. Spare us your lecture and move on buddy.
> 
> LMAO We don't care about India or its 1.5 billion population. You might get high on that, but irrelevant to the rest of the world. Feed them bro. We would all be very glad. Do something useful instead of quarrelling all the time.




Ha ha funny.
Why should I convince you ?
We are talking about the common policies of our govt.
When I try to explain that fact that is not for convince but to show the real mirror.
About feeding people,During last one decade we created 30 crore middle class and 50 crore common people that has enough capacity to find their own incomes.Middle class during earlier 90s in now brcome ultrarich around 20 crore people.Within next decade we will eliminate rest of the poverty.
99% in 47 to 22% in 2015.
Not bad at all.

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## My-Analogous

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reference:Radio Pakistan
> 
> National Radio of Pakistan (RADIO PAKISTAN) not some blog from India
> 
> Ryabkov terms Pakistan as Russia's closest partner
> Russian Deputy FM says his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has said that his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> He told Russian News Agency that both the countries had previously agreed upon delivery of these helicopters and modalities for their delivey are being finalized.
> 
> The Russian Minister termed Pakistan as close partner of his country hoping that cooperation between the countries will further grow various fields as well including energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth



same is reported by Russian news and as well as western media

Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India
Pakistan-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM | The London Post


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## HRK

Immanuel said:


> View attachment 255604

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## SrNair

#hydra# said:


> Su 35 is Superior to our MKI ,and if pak gets few 35s in future then definitely it will give big headache to us.




India knows A to Z capacity of Flanker platform.
We know its strong points and also the weakness.
Let yhem one squadron we are so eager to see howthey can handle such a maintenance expensive fighter.


----------



## Ind4Ever

elitepilot09 said:


> *Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM*
> 
> NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.
> 
> Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.
> 
> Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.
> 
> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal
> 
> had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> EDIT AFTER INDIANS TROLLING THIS THREAD:


----------



## My-Analogous

SrNair said:


> Ha ha funny.
> Why should I convince you ?
> We are talking about the common policies of our govt.
> When I try to explain that fact that is not for convince but to show the real mirror.
> About feeding people,During last one decade we created 30 crore middle class and 50 crore common people that has enough capacity to find their own incomes.Middle class during earlier 90s in now brcome ultrarich around 20 crore people.Within next decade we will eliminate rest of the poverty.
> 99% in 47 to 22% in 2015.
> Not bad at all.



Still trolling. You are sr. member of this forum and you have to show some maturity. Almost 90% of your post is troll and showoff. Be like a responsible Sr. Member


----------



## RazorMC

Assault Rifle said:


> ...
> As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.


That explains a lot


----------



## GURU DUTT

RedFlow said:


> jal jal kay aur kalay ho jao


haaiinn youtube works in land of the pure 

but sirji thats a Bangladeshi train not indian wanna see some "wierd things/innovations in pakistan "or"world famous pakistani trains" 

leave it sirji thread is about su-35 lets not go of topic or else you will regert bringing trains or "wierd things" in this thread


----------



## Windjammer

Last Samuri said:


> If you get the SU35 from Russia.
> 
> I WILL PUBLICALLY APOLOGISE
> 
> But I am 99% certain this is going in the same direction as the J10B purchase & J31 purchase & MORE block 52 purchase.
> 
> ROAD TO NOW WHERE
> 
> IN THE MEAN TIME this is want a flanker fleet looks like



We purchased Block-52s and option is there for more Vipers.
The J-10 was an outside option pending the release of Block-52s.
The J-31 is still few years away before becoming operational.
As PAF Air Chief said, PAF is looking and analysing various options from both East and West, ....where does that leave your statement.


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## GURU DUTT

RedFlow said:


> Its not just trains


but you agree that those are hypocrates who when shown youtube links about "glories of pakistan" start saying "youtube is banned in pakistan"


----------



## Paksanity

drunken-monke said:


> You need to understand the buying cost and lifecycle cost.. Russian aircraft comes at a less off the shelf price, but at a greater lifecycle cost.. The deal of Rafale is more cheaper than MKI if considered the life-cycle cost and operational availability.. we had a good experience with migs and M2ks..



It is no secret that Russian aircraft take a heavy toll on life cycle budget. For this reason alone PAF is likely not to go Sukhoi path. However Rafale is no way a cheaper aircraft to fly. It is one of the most expensive modern jets to operate. Just have a look.







PAF being on a smaller budget thus prefers jets like F-16. Question here is not whether we are getting Su-35 or not, it is of degree of progress that has been made in Pak-Russia defense relations. In my view Su-35 will not make it to Pakistan but there are other things which can. Like ground to air missiles. That is a good sign for Pakistan.

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## Shamain

Sales statement was made by russian FM or some senior dignitary and denial comes from a russian diplomat?...?????!!!

Does something make sense here


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## SipahSalar

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental


Except selling the best military hardware to China. Well played Russia.

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## SrNair

#hydra# said:


> My main worry is about the offer,and this offer was announced by a Russian minister not by their embassy officers. Russia may or may not sell 35 or pak may or may not go for this powerful bird now, but this situation shows us that we lost our grip on Russians and pak- Russia defence cooperation is reality and is growing day by day. In future definitely Russia will sell something deadly.
> 
> All these happened because we alligned with US( an unpredictable non trusty nation) and spoil brat IAF's love affair with the expensive french jet( I still believe that it's a good plat form against PAF but not against china). Unfortunately we lost a trusty companion in world politics only because of the mistake what we made in recent times.




A 2.5 trillion $ economy can do a lots of things that a megre 292 billion economy cant do .We are modernizing our entire defence systems.
Un like some others that bought weapons on aid and soft loans, we bought all that from Russia by giving hard cash .We have been purchased 50 billion $ equipments from Russia until now .

How much they can earn from these Su 35 selling ?
Few billions right.
But then they will lose another multibillion deal in India. They tried to exploit us in that Vikramadityadeal.So we gave some reward to them for that cooperation.



elitepilot09 said:


> Please?? Why are you here?? 10k + posts and you still post utter rubbish like this and troll threads with 1.3 billion blah blah and accomplishment nonsense? Stop derailing the thread and get a life please.




That was not for you .
But for other perfect man



ghazaliy2k said:


> Still trolling. You are sr. member of this forum and you have to show some maturity. Almost 90% of your post is troll and showoff. Be like a responsible Sr. Member




Dude .That was for that special guy.He tried to teach and so I gave them the same medicine


----------



## Syed Hussain

cmpk1 said:


> took us years to sign the deal for 8 Submarines. you're not buying a candy here.


It surely is candy if you have the will and pocket for it.


----------



## ice_man

GOOD we neither had the intention or the money. 

So its all good. 

nothing changed.


----------



## mad_max

usama fiaz said:


> Breaking News: Earth quack in office of RAW Delhi, Mumbai, Kabul and Indian high Commission in Pakistan.
> Everyone saved only burn injuries reported.
> 
> 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper, 10 WZ-10 Thunderbolt, almost 10+ MI 35 and now SU 35.
> its gonna be like Aj mai uper Asman nechy India hy PECHY PECHY


15 Bell donations from USA , 10 WZ-10 donations from China , I bet Russians would not be donating you anything so save your breath and keep on dreaming.

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## Windjammer

Mr.Nair said:


> How dare you can post your picture !



Oh dear, don't you recognise your own cousin now.

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## Guynextdoor2

Windjammer said:


> Next door girlie is on her menstrual cycle again, well, seems you are even being bitc* slapped by the Russians as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: India-Russia jet deal hits turbulence over 'technical worries' | Daily Mail Online



That's not how the real world works windy

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## GURU DUTT

Guynextdoor2 said:


> That's not how the real world works windy


man o man that was epic

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## #hydra#

SrNair said:


> India knows A to Z capacity of Flanker platform.
> We know its strong points and also the weakness.
> Let yhem one squadron we are so eager to see howthey can handle such a maintenance expensive fighter.


We know A to Z about su30 MKI and up to some extent on Chinese su30 but not on the su 35,we are almost completely blind on su 35,even its RCS, AL 41's heat signature,ecms etc.


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## knight11

ONLY ONE QUESTION WILL PAKISTAN GETS HER HAND ON SU35 BEFORE CHINA. WHO WILL WIN THIS RACE.


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## Anees




----------



## migflug

Nothing miraculous. It was supposed to happen as india would not allow Russia to sell su 35 so easily. We would use all our means to stop such a deal as su 35 is the best flanker . I suppose this is the way any country treats its enemy


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## Nefarious

Too late! Dhoti's already got wet.

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## Dalit

Paksanity said:


> It is no secret that Russian aircraft take a heavy toll on life cycle budget. For this reason alone PAF is likely not to go Sukhoi path. However Rafale is no way a cheaper aircraft to fly. It is one of the most expensive modern jets to operate. Just have a look.
> 
> View attachment 255679
> 
> 
> PAF being on a smaller budget thus prefers jets like F-16. Question here is not whether we are getting Su-35 or not, it is of degree of progress that has been made in Pak-Russia defense relations. In my view Su-35 will not make it to Pakistan but there are other things which can. Like ground to air missiles. That is a good sign for Pakistan.



No doubt, the PAF is looking for a sophisticated kind of platform which would be able to thwart and nullify Indian acquisitions. Namely, a fighter that would be able to attack on multiple fronts against multiple threats. The Indian acquisitions speak for themselves. It is not an easy task under the current circumstances. Without a shred of a doubt, a couple of Su-35 squadrons are the safest bet and I'm not remotely surprised that the decision-makers are pressing hard for this deal to happen. The specs of this beast are indisputable and speak volume. We have to keep in mind that Western fighters are out of the equation. The Americans won't provide anything above F-16. Even if they did, the cost is always a major issue. In other words, a balance has to be struck between cost and performance. That leaves Russia and China. China cannot provide anything in the league of Su-35. At least in the short term. In the first place, China has its own requirements to look after. I think that PAF has also come to the firm conclusion that diversification is the way forward. China is a very reliable ally and has always fulfilled Pakistan's fighter requirements. The JF-17 is a great fighter and a workhorse of PAF. The JF-17 will be inducted in bulk. However, a long range fighter with a powerful radar and a lethal weapons package is something that only Russia can deliver. That too at a favourable cost. People keep referring to the J-11, but this platform isn't for sale. Not to mention the copyright disputes and other issues. It's a non-starter for PAF. The specific role of the Su-35 would be to form an elite squadron which can provide extra punch against the more potent IAF fighters. It will serve the role of a force multiplier along with F-16s. Only this beast is able to provide the extra naval punch due to its extreme long endurance. This is very important keeping in view the developments at Gwadar and elsewhere. The Su-35 is the kind of platform the PAF would love to have in its arsenal. This platform truly fulfils every requirement in the short and long-term. It's more than just a stopgap measure. It's a mainstay. The Su-35 isn't some luxury, but a necessity. As the Indians keep beefing their fighter acquisitions from various sources, the PAF cannot remain idle. It requires premium quality and superior performance. It needs to act and that too very decisively. Just a couple of Su-35 squadrons along with F-16 and JF-17 in greater numbers would certainly make the required impact. We need to reap the benefits of the improving relations with Russia. Not so long ago, it was even unthinkable to opt for Russian transport helicopters. Today, we are negotiating a deal for the most premium Russian fighter...

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## being humane

Guynextdoor2 said:


> our deal for Pak Fa is* Five times* your annual defence budget. What makes you think they'll want to piss us off...wind breaker?


Corrected. PAK FA budget is 35 Billion USD , whereas Pakistans Annual defence budget is 7billion.

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## mzeeshanfahd

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Reports are coming in for deal for 75 fighter jets of Sukhoi-35 , bit bigger order then expected



app ka mun me ghi shakar although I think it will not be more than 2 sqdrns (naval use ~24 in numbers) .... any additional numbers depends on the usage of pure air superiority purpose but that seems difficult ... I am no expert but that is what I understand from this forum seniors post whose post I have seen to actually matter ... not the trolling fools


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> For deep strike and good offensive punch J-16 is best option



What is its load carrying capacity---what is its loiter time range in combat mode


----------



## ravindra1455

HRK said:


> View attachment 255676



Russian embassy calls Su-35 sale to Pakistan report as sheer overstatement and overeaction by media | Page 7


----------



## r0ck

It's now been roughly 2 days and still I haven't read any clear denial on this by either Russia or Pakistan, despite the fact that this news is now being quoted at several news outlets.

If there's no truth in this, either Pakistan or Russia should outrightly and clearly deny this. This would save a lot of headache on the Indian side  and a lot of expectation on the Pakistani side .

But if (and that's a big, big IF since I'm already a pessimist on this to begin with) this news is legit and the Deputy Russian FM really meant what he said about the delivery schedule of SU-35 to Pakistan, what would be the likely delivery timeframe from here on out (from a professional's perspective ofcourse)?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

mad_max said:


> 15 Bell donations from USA , 10 WZ-10 donations from China , I bet Russians would not be donating you anything so save your breath and keep on dreaming.


Its not donation, we provided services in terms WOT and logistic support by giving US access to arabian sea. Its like saying, US customers donates pennies per hour to Indian tech support... 
Anyways, what ever way Pak gets these choppers, at the end of the day PA will have choppers to fight India while India cries about it.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

elitepilot09 said:


> Please?? Why are you here?? 10k + posts and you still post utter rubbish like this and troll threads with 1.3 billion blah blah and accomplishment nonsense? Stop derailing the thread and get a life please.





SrNair said:


> India knows A to Z capacity of Flanker platform.
> We know its strong points and also the weakness.
> Let yhem one squadron we are so eager to see howthey can handle such a maintenance expensive fighter.


THe only thing India has learned is to crash Flanker platform and giving it bad name in Flanker world. 
Su-35 is nothing like MKI which has western equipment

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## HRK

ravindra1455 said:


> Russian embassy calls Su-35 sale to Pakistan report as sheer overstatement and overeaction by media | Page 7

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> What is its load carrying capacity---what is its loiter time range in combat mode


It has 12 hard points


----------



## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> bhai ab wo bhi kya karre
> 
> yoon to jannat ki haqeeqat hame maloom hai lekin dil behlane ko khayal achha hai
> 
> desparation ka alam ye ki maloom hai ki su-35/Mig35 to door second hand F-16s kharedne ke bhi paise nahi per kya karren kambhakt.........
> 
> 
> is this thread about east pakistan ?
> 
> is this thread about past indo pak wars ?
> 
> or is this your frustation and when having nothing to argue urge to derail a thread ?


shut up u moron


----------



## John Doe

Mr.Nair said:


> How dare you can post your picture !





Windjammer said:


> Oh dear, don't you recognise your own cousin now.



Nair?!?! You lucky B*%*%#D! WIndjammer is your cousin !!!!!!!!!!

So Nair, your uncle married his elder sister and this genetic mess of a cousin was created?


----------



## knight11

#hydra# said:


> We know A to Z about su30 MKI and up to some extent on Chinese su30 but not on the su 35,we are almost completely blind on su 35,even its RCS, AL 41's heat signature,ecms etc.


BAKWAAS !! If this for the troll than Ok otherwise Rubbish


----------



## #hydra#

knight11 said:


> BAKWAAS !! If this for the troll than Ok otherwise Rubbish


Care to explain.


----------



## Gandhi follower

Who will pay for it ??


----------



## Pindi Boy

HRK said:


> View attachment 255717
> 
> View attachment 255715


well played sir g



GURU DUTT said:


> sure sure waise bhi pigeon meat tastes much better than bater


u cant eat pigeons baz u are so called shakaharri



mad_max said:


> 15 Bell donations from USA , 10 WZ-10 donations from China , I bet Russians would not be donating you anything so save your breath and keep on dreaming.


----------



## knight11

Dalit said:


> No doubt, the PAF is looking for a sophisticated kind of platform which would be able to thwart and nullify Indian acquisitions. Namely, a fighter that would be able to attack on multiple fronts against multiple threats. The Indian acquisitions speak for themselves. It is not an easy task under the current circumstances. Without a shred of a doubt, a couple of Su-35 squadrons are the safest bet and I'm not remotely surprised that the decision-makers are pressing hard for this deal to happen. The specs of this beast are indisputable and speak volume. We have to keep in mind that Western fighters are out of the equation. The Americans won't provide anything above F-16. Even if they did, the cost is always a major issue. In other words, a balance has to be struck between cost and performance. That leaves Russia and China. China cannot provide anything in the league of Su-35. At least in the short term. In the first place, China has its own requirements to look after. I think that PAF has also come to the firm conclusion that diversification is the way forward. China is a very reliable ally and has always fulfilled Pakistan's fighter requirements. The JF-17 is a great fighter and a workhorse of PAF. The JF-17 will be inducted in bulk. However, a long range fighter with a powerful radar and a lethal weapons package is something that only Russia can deliver. That too at a favourable cost. People keep referring to the J-11, but this platform isn't for sale. Not to mention the copyright disputes and other issues. It's a non-starter for PAF. The specific role of the Su-35 would be to form an elite squadron which can provide extra punch against the more potent IAF fighters. It will serve the role of a force multiplier along with F-16s. Only this beast is able to provide the extra naval punch due to its extreme long endurance. This is very important keeping in view the developments at Gwadar and elsewhere. The Su-35 is the kind of platform the PAF would love to have in its arsenal. This platform truly fulfils every requirement in the short and long-term. It's more than just a stopgap measure. It's a mainstay. The Su-35 isn't some luxury, but a necessity. As the Indians keep beefing their fighter acquisitions from various sources, the PAF cannot remain idle. It requires premium quality and superior performance. It needs to act and that too very decisively. Just a couple of Su-35 squadrons along with F-16 and JF-17 in greater numbers would certainly make the required impact. We need to reap the benefits of the improving relations with Russia. Not so long ago, it was even unthinkable to opt for Russian transport helicopters. Today, we are negotiating a deal for the most premium Russian fighter...


To cut short you need Su 35 to counter IAF. I have earlier written before but now again repeating is it necessory what is better for Russia is better for Pakistan. Su35 is not meant for country like Pakistan rather it is only useful for Russia and China i.e to counter the threat possed by the west. I am not going into the details but long endurance, powerful radar, low rcs, long range BVR are meant for the country like Russia and China to cover vast country and to counter the Stealth airborne threats possesed by US and its allies. Don't bring Gwadar because its out of context in this.


----------



## #hydra#

Gandhi follower said:


> Who will pay for it ??


I saw many of my fellow countrymen ask this question many times in this same thread,I wznt tell those people one basic nature of Pakistan. This is not a full fledged democratic country,their govt is actually a military puppet,if they want su 35 and Russians are ready to sell means suerly they can find money from their own country. Remember despite being one of the poor country & having aN economy which is a fraction of India they were able to maintain numerical superiority in nuclear bomb ( don't tell that making a nuclear bomb is a cheep affair,its a costly business needs lot of money).


----------



## Kakaspai

knight11 said:


> To cut short you need Su 35 to counter IAF. I have earlier written before but now again repeating is it necessory what is better for Russia is better for Pakistan. Su35 is not meant for country like Pakistan rather it is only useful for Russia and China i.e to counter the threat possed by the west. I am not going into the details but long endurance, powerful radar, low rcs, long range BVR are meant for the country like Russia and China to cover vast country and to counter the Stealth airborne threats possesed by US and its allies. Don't bring Gwadar because its out of context in this.


What plane suits paf best in your opinion?


----------



## Kakaspai

You just cant buy all the western tech.the shit is too fucking expensive.even if russia sell pakistan its equipment india wont dump all that good stuff that she can get for the cheap price


----------



## #hydra#

Kakaspai said:


> What plane suits paf best in your opinion?


As an indian I will suggest PAF to go for world war era spitfire.....


----------



## Kakaspai

Russia wont be losing Indian market.i dont think indian gov is so stupid that it will ditch all those equipments they can get cheaply.and second thing is how would you guys maintain all of the systems that you already bought from Russia


----------



## Kakaspai

#hydra# said:


> As an indian I will suggest PAF to go for world war era spitfire.....


Now answer me as a neutral person


----------



## #hydra#

Kakaspai said:


> Now answer me as a neutral person


You already got the offer go for it if money & logistical nightmare is not matter,otherwise j-10( I believe Chinese claim on its capability,there civilian stuff are bad one but no one will make shit for there own armed forces) or by using Russian offer make a good bargain with US and fetch some more f16.


----------



## knight11

#hydra# said:


> Care to explain.


_We know A to Z about su30 MKI _

What does A to Z means does India have all the aerodynamic variables and parameters and flight characteristic data, does India have all the metallurgical composition knowledge used in MKI, Does India is manufacturing even its tyres, Does India have the source code of Bars, Fly by wire, fire control, navigation system.

_and up to some extent on Chinese su30 but not on the su 35_

What are you smoking Su30Mkk is different than MKI the previous don't have TVC so different flight characteristic 
,
_we are almost completely blind on su 35,even its RCS, AL 41's heat signature,ecms etc._

Yes you are completely blind on Su 35 and what is rcs its very popular among jignostics like you, remember no OEM or the manufacturer mentioned any rcs of any aircraft, AL41 heat signature ?? Now do you know what does that means and how it is detected by the way.

Now to blast some bubble do you know that Su 30MKI don't have MAWS and no internal jammer

Feel free to ask more if you didn't understand what I wrote


----------



## Secret Service

Gandhi follower said:


> Who will pay for it ??


we are not talking about money here... availability is the main issue


----------



## Khanivore

elitepilot09 said:


> "The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's _closest_ partner"


After all that was said on this forum by Indian members, what does this mean now?


----------



## knight11

Kakaspai said:


> What plane suits paf best in your opinion?


That depends on the PAF needs and I am excluding any political/military/economical problems aside than say if they want Air Superiority fighter Plane to counter IAF MKI that best will be F-15E or the Eurofighter 2000 Tranche 4, if wants multirole fighter thatn SAAB Gripen NG, Rafale F4, if wanted 5th Gen than F-35 is the best option (leave speculated baloons of J31, TFX), for PN airforce than F-18.


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## Blue Marlin

knight11 said:


> That depends on the PAF needs and I am excluding any political/military/economical problems aside than say if they want Air Superiority fighter Plane to counter IAF MKI that best will be F-15E or the Eurofighter 2000 Tranche 4, if wants multirole fighter thatn SAAB Gripen NG, Rafale F4, if wanted 5th Gen than F-35 is the best option (leave speculated baloons of J31, TFX), for PN airforce than F-18.


eft trance 4! dont you mean the tranche 3


----------



## knight11

blue marlin said:


> eft trance 4! dont you mean the tranche 3


He He thanx buddy it was typing error and how is the life going


----------



## Kakaspai

knight11 said:


> That depends on the PAF needs and I am excluding any political/military/economical problems aside than say if they want Air Superiority fighter Plane to counter IAF MKI that best will be F-15E or the Eurofighter 2000 Tranche 4, if wants multirole fighter thatn SAAB Gripen NG, Rafale F4, if wanted 5th Gen than F-35 is the best option (leave speculated baloons of J31, TFX), for PN airforce than F-18.


Since paf thinks that JFT block 3 would be equal to gripen ng so its out.India is close to signing the deal for Rafael so its out too.f18 for PN its too expensive.we are left with f15 and eurofighter.


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## 09ee97

usama fiaz said:


> are u sure about 75 if it is than it gonna be bhale bhale  for paf
> 
> 
> _A nation with $ 19 billion in her savings account, for national security purposes, can spend $ 2 billion tomorrow and get stuff on cash. The only thing like I've said many times is, Pakistan is being smart about it. She doesn't want to tick off the WB and the IMF (both of which have a lot of Indian influence)._


How about no? 2 billion dollars = 200 billion rupees. Spend this much on people, education, health and infrastructure and you will see a change. Not everybody wants modern air crafts, nukes and wars. Several of us want to live a peaceful life.


----------



## Kakaspai

09ee97 said:


> How about no? 2 billion dollars = 200 billion rupees. Spend this much on people, education, health and infrastructure and you will see a change. Not everybody wants modern air crafts, nukes and wars. Several of us want to live a peaceful life.


Some people will say boring life.JK  peace


----------



## knight11

Kakaspai said:


> Since paf thinks that JFT block 3 would be equal to gripen ng so its out.India is close to signing the deal for Rafael so its out too.f18 for PN its too expensive.we are left with f15 and eurofighter.


Can you provide me any link where Paf thinks that JFT block 3 is equal to gripen Ng. What is JFT block 3 by the way??


----------



## 09ee97

Kakaspai said:


> Since paf thinks that JFT block 3 would be equal to gripen ng so its out.India is close to signing the deal for Rafael so its out too.f18 for PN its too expensive.we are left with f15 and eurofighter.


The block number is a funny thing. It was supposed to have AESA radar already in block 2 but i guess it will still take a 3-4 years. You can name blocks however you want but that wont change their technical capabilities.


----------



## Kakaspai

09ee97 said:


> The block number is a funny thing. It was supposed to have AESA radar already in block 2 but i guess it will still take a 3-4 years. You can name blocks however you want but that wont change their technical capabilities.


Yup the current block 2 is what block 1 should have been but anyways.during the paris air show Air chief confirmed the aesa radar for block 3


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## knight11

09ee97 said:


> The block number is a funny thing. It was supposed to have AESA radar already in block 2 but i guess it will still take a 3-4 years. You can name blocks however you want but that wont change their technical capabilities.


In block 2 I think OBOGS, air refuiling pod and software updates for MMR was implemented. Correct me if I am wrong. Any news of which Aesa Radar Paf is interested.

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## 09ee97

Kakaspai said:


> Yup the current block 2 is what block 1 should have been but anyways.during the paris air show Air chief confirmed the aesa radar for block 3


I would still take it with a pinch of salt. There is a contrasting difference between what PAF says and what it actually does. The past is a clear example of that.

The most important upgrade for me was AESA but no, lets just add useless shit and see if it can beat gripen or whatever it is capable to beat.


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## Kakaspai

knight11 said:


> In block 2 I think OBOGS, air refuiling pod and software updates for MMR was implemented. Correct me if I am wrong. Any news of which Aesa Radar Paf is interested.


It was going to be a Chinese but now after russia opening up to us its too early to tell


----------



## Blue Marlin

knight11 said:


> He He thanx buddy it was typing error and how is the life going


ok, life's good what about u?


----------



## Sal12

SrNair said:


> Lol
> So much emotions.
> A big country world largest growing economy.
> Un like you we have our own decision and relations with entire World.
> 
> 
> SrNair said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol
> So much emotions.
> A big country world largest growing economy.
> Un like you we have our own decision and relations with entire World.
> 
> 
> 50 members from 1.3 billion doesnt represent India.
> What is your accomplishment in S&T,economic,social fields ?Then what is this onsession ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you
Click to expand...


A citizen


SrNair said:


> A 2.5 trillion $ economy can do a lots of things that a megre 292 billion economy cant do .We are modernizing our entire defence systems.
> Un like some others that bought weapons on aid and soft loans, we bought all that from Russia by giving hard cash .We have been purchased 50 billion $ equipments from Russia until now .
> 
> How much they can earn from these Su 35 selling ?
> Few billions right.
> But then they will lose another multibillion deal in India. They tried to exploit us in that Vikramadityadeal.So we gave some reward to them for that cooperation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was not for you .
> But for other perfect man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude .That was for that special guy.He tried to teach and so I gave them the same medicine





It does not suit from a citizen of world’s largest country of poors on planet where the poors of his country exceeds the poors of whole continent of Africa and where the railway track of his country is used as the largest open air toilet of the world to talk about his $2 trillion economy which is purely based on 1.3 billion humans and out of which most are living like animals.

Please go to Indian defence forum and tell this $2 trillion thing to your country men to make yourself happy.


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## knight11

Fine nothing special just working on some project, PDF started pissing me off? Have you planned started any new thread? How about EJ 2000 vs SuperSukhoi 30 MKI.

@Blue Martin
@blue marlin


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## cmpk1

Dear Indian Trolls.

Indians love to play this "i've got so many toys, & they're bigger than yours". Ah, their superiority complex.

Obviously you guys will always have bigger armed forces, with more military inventory, than Pakistan. We don't have that much land mass to protect, nor we have 1.25 BILLION people! jeez.

You guys need to compete with country like China than to be infatuated with a smaller country of 190 million people lol but we know that's not going to happen, you & your RSS terrorist Modi will always stay stuck up with Pakistan.

kuch sharam hie karlo yaar 

btw, feel sorry for Indians. I know it has been hard for you guys ever since Muhammad Bin Qasim set his foot in Indian sub continent, must've had adverse effect on your pea sized brains after 800 years of Muslim rule, then British rule, then seeing India break into pieces in 1947. I can understand your frustrations, unfortunately there is no cure for bum burns, got to deal with us

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## cmpk1

still no denial from either side, Russia & Pakistan. So there is certainly something going on behind the scene. 

for Indian trolls, no, not talking about denial in an Indian news paper, show me a Russian news.

I guess within next 5 years PAF is going to add one Chinese platform for sure, maybe J10? & one western platform. 5th gen is at least 10-15 years away, unless US comes up with an offer for F-35, but that'd be extremely expensive


----------



## Trisonics

cmpk1 said:


> Dear Indian Trolls.
> 
> Indians love to play this "i've got so many toys, & they're bigger than yours".* Ah, their superiority complex.*
> 
> Obviously you guys will always have bigger armed forces, with more military inventory, than Pakistan. We don't have that much land mass to protect, nor we have 1.25 BILLION people! jeez.
> 
> You guys need to compete with country like China than to be infatuated with a smaller country of 190 million people lol but we know that's not going to happen, you & your RSS terrorist Modi will always stay stuck up with Pakistan.
> 
> kuch sharam hie karlo yaar
> 
> btw, feel sorry for Indians. I know it has been hard for you guys ever since Muhammad Bin Qasim set his foot in Indian sub continent, must've had adverse effect on your* pea sized brains* after 800 years of Muslim rule, than British rule, than seeing India break into pieces in 1947. I can understand your frustrations, unfortunately there is no cure for bum burns, got to deal with us



You talk about superiority complex and then call us Pea brained but yet Pakistan or Muslims cannot match India in Science, Technology, Educational achievements, Industries, Research, Space, Automotive, Engineering, Medicine and Democracy. Yet, I sense a superiority complex with your kind for not being any kind of achievers. If you are proud of history of loot, plunder and now of Islamic terror..go for it man! we don't want to be around any of that, and man you guys are achievers when it comes to that but has nothing to do with us. Talk science, innovation and I'm happy to do any kind of analysis to challenge your pea brain tag..game? or you will you pussy off? and run to bring some other country's achievement for your rescue like you did with wars with us?


----------



## Preacher

Okay, but where did they say we are not giving SU-35 to Pakistan I missed that part

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## Trisonics

Hey* PAK- Russia -China* are the new super powers! who are we to challenge that claim. yes the Su 35 will be landing tomorrow! Congrats!!! to the biggest diplomatic and strategic victory over India!


----------



## cmpk1

@Trisonics there there, don't cry.


----------



## Basel

VelocuR said:


> Closed thread.
> 
> People are fooled to thank posts in OP. Pakistan is not going to get Su-35, too much hypers and rumors.



Please let members from Pakistan enjoy this News or rumor whatever this is, because due to it Indians are burning and trying to pose calm and sane people, which they are not.

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## Secret Service

there is no confirmed reports from either sides.. so please till that time hold your horses ...


----------



## Trisonics

cmpk1 said:


> @Trisonics there there, don't cry.


Already chickened out? Call us pea brained and come out with replies that have no substance? hmm


----------



## Basel

batmannow said:


> Enjoy the show pls !
> There was a news that MOODI JEE is sleep less since he got the news that Russia is ready to sell the SU 35 to Pakistan ?
> Wet pajamas !lolzz
> 
> 
> Any future conflict between India & Pakistan won't be just between us & them ?
> It will escalate I'm sure about it , so then if we had a platform like SU-35 at our hands we , can see all the dadies in their beds , & can take care of them , before they even wake up from their dam dreams ?
> Its a safe & great investment , which can carry us more 30 years & so on ?



Su-35 class jets will allow PAF to even keep NATO at bay, if every things go very wrong for Pakistan.

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## Trisonics

Basel said:


> Su-35 class jets will allow PAF to even keep NATO at bay, if every things go very wrong for Pakistan.


I think so too.. the world at your feet if they mess with ya. Good work!

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## Super Falcon

Beethoven said:


> I still believe going for SU-35 is not a sane idea....better utilize those funds for procuring additional -16's


Yaar again mental block of F 16 dear we have to get out of jail of F 16 it is good against ground targets

Skies battlefield changed today very fast we need twin engine jet with air superiority tag

In 1965 we won due to PAF achieved complete air superirity against IAF

different platforms give you edge in battlefield and headache for opponent planning and stategy if you have 200 F 16 and 150 Jf 17 still we loose better make some sense

All major airforces today buy twon engine jet along with single engine

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## Preacher

The Bhartis showed the same behavior when Mi-35 deal was underway


----------



## That Guy

I have no doubt that Russia is more than willing to sell to Pakistan, the issue is that both PAF and Russia know, introducing a Sukhoi into Pakistan's air force is not something PAF is interested it. PAF is NOT interested in introducing a 4.5 or 4++ gen fighter, and is looking towards the future by looking at 5th gen.


----------



## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is always a combination of things that creates a deterrent.
> 
> Supposedly---the SU35 deal is done with Russia or F35 deal signed with the U S-----and you get either one of these aircraft or even the F16 BLK60-----but still that is not enough----.
> 
> *Now with this air superiority fighter---you need to compliment your deep strike capabilities as well.*
> 
> In the current scenario---Pakistan needs 4 different kinds of aircraft----in the future---it will need 5 different kinds----till the F 16's are retd----.



Regarding bold part, this bird is a multi role jet and can perform variety of roles.


----------



## knight11

cmpk1 said:


> still no denial from either side, Russia & Pakistan. So there is certainly something going on behind the scene.
> 
> for Indian trolls, no, not talking about denial in an Indian news paper, show me a Russian news.
> 
> I guess within next 5 years PAF is going to add one Chinese platform for sure, maybe J10? & one western platform. 5th gen is at least 10-15 years away, unless US comes up with an offer for F-35, but that'd be extremely expensive


Yes something is going behind the scene and I have seen such behind the scene for J10 B also.


Basel said:


> Su-35 class jets will allow PAF to even keep NATO at bay, if every things go very wrong for Pakistan.


Keeping NATO at bay really ?? How many SU35 is required for that ?


----------



## Last Samuri

You tell them THAT GUY.

PAF is buying J31 soon


----------



## Last Samuri

Good god

Is this still GOING ON

Pakistanis doing dancing an d rejoicing at a rumour of handful of flankers.

WAIT is that the same FLANKER flown by the Indians ( 220 in nos already) AND apparently nothing infront of the mighty falcons.

THEY WILL LOOK LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GET THEM IN 5 YEARS TIME


----------



## knight11

Last Samuri said:


> Good god
> 
> Is this still GOING ON
> 
> Pakistanis doing dancing an d rejoicing at a rumour of handful of flankers.
> 
> WAIT is that the same FLANKER flown by the Indians ( 220 in nos already) AND apparently nothing infront of the mighty falcons.


Probably 350 is the last call, Super Sukhoi deep Upgradation plan to be comensed soon probably after 2017 which will keep the superiority over Su35 after which FGFA era will begins.


----------



## Basel

knight11 said:


> Yes something is going behind the scene and I have seen such behind the scene for J10 B also.
> 
> Keeping NATO at bay really ?? How many SU35 is required for that ?



Dear even 48 Su-35 with JF-17 will be enough to keep NATO at bay because our top of the line fighter will be able to engage enemy which it can't do now in case of NATO because PAF's F-16s don't see US allies as foe on their IFF.


----------



## Kaniska

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com





Even also Russia sales it to Pakistan, i think India should be mature enough to deal with it...If India can work with US when US is supplying arm to both India and Pakistan then why not Russia....And even i think if China would have done some qulaity arms like European or US, i do not think China would have sold their planes to India with right price...

The whole world now does not operare on binary relationship...Now in multipolar world, each nation is doing the same thing what US was doing 20 years back...US was fighting war with Islamic terrorist as well as sposor and supplier of money and other things to those groups that works on thier interest....Same logic is applied here..

If India does not like Russia dealing with Pak, then India should make alternative arrangement or back out from Russia...But the question is that, Can India afford to do it at this point of time?? Russia at no point of time going to sale any high end planes to Pakistan...Pakistan does not have that selling potential nor need to buy it when Pakistan has access to cheap Chines fighter planes...Russia is simply flirting with Pakistan to see how much India can react to this situation


----------



## 09ee97

Basel said:


> Dear even 48 Su-35 with JF-17 will be enough to keep NATO at bay because our top of the line fighter will be able to engage enemy which it can't do now in case of NATO because PAF's F-16s don't see US allies as foe on their IFF.


Yeah, right, as if we will pick fight with NATO and as if Russia will give them for free since we dont have any money. Its funny as we cant take care of stupid drones, half the time we confuse nation with protest-in-front-of-embassy-drama and other half the time keep guessing its a mutual program to stop ourselves from embarrassment and then we think of taking stand against big guys. I guess our prime job is only to defend ourselves from Indian invasion, rest are welcome to do whatever they want. Salala attack pretty much proved it as did countless other such incidence in the past.


----------



## Basel

09ee97 said:


> Yeah, right, as if we will pick fight with NATO and as if Russia will give them for free since we dont have any money. Its funny as we cant take care of stupid drones, half the time we confuse nation with protest-in-front-of-embassy-drama and other half the time keep guessing its a mutual program to stop ourselves from embarrassment and then we think of taking stand against big guys. I guess our prime job is only to defend ourselves from Indian invasion, rest are welcome to do whatever they want. Salala attack pretty much proved it as did countless other such incidence in the past.



If Pakistan had Su-35 class jet back then Salala would have not happened.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

That Guy said:


> I have no doubt that Russia is more than willing to sell to Pakistan, the issue is that both PAF and Russia know, introducing a Sukhoi into Pakistan's air force is not something PAF is interested it. PAF is NOT interested in introducing a 4.5 or 4++ gen fighter, and is looking towards the future by looking at 5th gen.



But still we will need 4 and 4.5 gen jets..... I don't think that PAF will but 100's of 5th Generation jets...

like i always say...

150 JF-17 are taking place of F-7's
which jet is gonna take place of 75 Mirages? (for a moment let me suppose 5th gen jet will take it's place) then
what about that time when our F-16's will be old which is about 7-10 years from now what plane will take F-16's plane...??


and sooner or Later we will need a Naval wing at least some jets to Counter India's naval fleet (MiG-29, Jaguar, Naval version of Tejas)


----------



## war&peace

I think Russian Embassy in India is concerned about its security otherwise this statement should have from the foreign office. A large number RSS terrorists under the shitship of murdoodi could attack the Russian embassy.


----------



## Hiptullha

@Assault Rifle
Dude, can you give me a link to the Russian source?
This is all I'm getting when I search up one of the statements made by the Russians.

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## Quwa

It won't be long before we see an official statement from PAF. Someone will annoy them enough to spill the beans.


----------



## knight11

Basel said:


> Dear even 48 Su-35 with JF-17 will be enough to keep NATO at bay because our top of the line fighter will be able to engage enemy which it can't do now in case of NATO because PAF's F-16s don't see US allies as foe on their IFF.



1. First tell me how do you know 48 number is going to be procured. Are you counting the Chinese order.

2. IFF ?(Identification - Friends or Foe) pity can't it be replaced with Chinese or developed by NESCOM

3. Which top of the line fighter are you talking is it F-16 block 52 or JF-17 block 2/3 ?


----------



## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> Regarding bold part, this bird is a multi role jet and can perform variety of roles.




Hi,

Why would you want a 60 million jet to do the job that can be done by a 30 million JH7B


----------



## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why would you want a 60 million jet to do the job that can be done by a 30 million JH7B



because for few specialized mission demand that.


----------



## knight11

Basel said:


> because for few specialized mission demand that.


And can you tell me more about those specialized mission regarding keeping the NATO at the bay.


----------



## Paksanity

Assault Rifle said:


> Will not take any step detrimental
> to India’s security:Russia.
> 
> New Delhi, Sep 10: Russia today said that it will
> never take any step detrimental to the security
> and safety of its special strategic partner
> India.Russian Embassy here issued a statement in
> the backdrop of a report that said Russia and
> Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian
> multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest
> Su-35 fighter jets.
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated
> at the highest level that Russia will never take
> any steps detrimental to the security and safety
> of our special and privileged strategic partner ?
> India, or the security structure in the South Asian
> region, or any other region for that matter,” the
> statement said. (Also Read: India, Pakistan
> membership in SCO to be finalised in 2016:
> Russia)
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was
> valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our
> President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.*”As
> regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it
> is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency,
> on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section
> of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security:Russia | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com



Thank you for posting it. Russian embassy in India has pretty much confirmed that these talks exist. How far negotiations have progressed is anybody's guess.

People who can not read diplomatic language will likely not understand this. When a diplomat wants to deny a news they say there is no such thing happening. There have been no such words. What Russian embassy said was prepared response and in tune with the words of Russian deputy FM (who would be second in-line boss of embassies). Before deputy FM makes his statement, he would have informed Indian leadership and asked embassy in India to prepare suitable response to sooth resenting sentiments of Indian populace. This is exactly what the embassy has done. Indians seem happy with the Russian assurance and in the excitement entirely missed not only the missing denial but also that Mi-35 which happens to be a confirmed deal has also been mentioned in this statement! I have always been admirer of Russian diplomatic skills and they did not disappoint this time either.

Whether this deal goes through or not is entirely a different matter. Most likely it will not. But Russia has surely sent a message to Delhi and Pakistan has surely made inroads in Moscow.

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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> because for few specialized mission demand that.



Hi,

They will be the primary missions---they will break the might of the indian navy in the region---2 sqdrn strengths and smash the enemy assets deep down on the coastline---.

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## knight11

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They will be the primary missions---they will break the might of the indian navy in the region---2 sqdrn strengths and smash the enemy assets deep down on the coastline---.


First let the deal be confirmed, let the deal be finalized, let the deal be signed, let the plane be arrive, let the pilot be trained, then think of smashing the enemy assets and break the might of the Indian navy in the region. The Indian Navy which have the potential to compete with the PAF, with 2 squardon what are you smoking.


----------



## MastanKhan

knight11 said:


> First let the deal be confirmed, let the deal be finalized, let the deal be signed, let the plane be arrive, let the pilot be trained, then think of smashing the enemy assets and break the might of the Indian navy in the region. The Indian Navy which have the potential to compete with the PAF, with 2 squardon what are you smoking.




Sir,

At least allow us to indulge in our fancy for awhile---now could you please.


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## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> At least allow us to indulge in our fancy for awhile---now could you please.



If Purchased Su-35 can be equipped with AL Babar and big bro of CM-400AKG, means greater range of strike with precision.

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## nadeemkhan110

Hiptullha said:


> @Assault Rifle
> Dude, can you give me a link to the Russian source?
> This is all I'm getting when I search up one of the statements made by the Russians.


 good work my friend you have close the chapter


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## RoadRunner401

Stephen Cohen said:


> But we can OUT SPEND you by a Factor of SIX at least
> 
> So First the French decided NOT to supply avionics for JF 17
> because of Mirage 2000 upgrades and RAFALE deal
> 
> AND Now the Russians dont want to loose their Biggest client



LOL before you jump up and down with excitement EinStein, our jf17 is powered by Russian engines. Which at the time, if I remember correctly was also denied by the Russians to please the Indians. 


Hey
what happened to that's 126 Rafale deal

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## knight11

RoadRunner401 said:


> LOL before you jump up and down with excitement EinStein, our jf17 is powered by Russian engines. Which at the time, if I remember correctly was also denied by the Russians to please the Indians.
> 
> 
> Hey
> what happened to that's 126 Rafale deal


All RD93 engines are coming from Russia via China, Do you have the MRO facility in your country because MRO work has been started thanks to low TBO of the Russian Engine of 600 hr.

As far as Rafale is concerned it is the matter of 189 not 126 Rafale F4,36 is coming from France in flyaway condition and rest will be made in the country.


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## Bossman

How China Plans to Use the Su-35 | The Diplomat

This article provide good insights into utility of SU35s for China which I think will also become relevant to the Arabian Sea in due course of time. After completion of the CEPC, Arabian Sea will become the second most important sea to the Chinese after the South China sea and hence Gwadar and CEPC will require different layers of defence which can be provided by a mix of Chinese and Pakistani assets including sub-surface (6 new subs), surface (6 new MSA patrol ships plus new orders for larger ships expected) and finally long-range airborne assets. Among other, one of the challenges with SU35 and similar aircrafts for PAF is that they cannot leverage existing PAF infrastructure i.e. they will not fit in our existing HAS etc. So complete new infrastructure will be needed. Pakistan has started constructed of two new bases in the South one in Turbat and other just south of Hyderabad. It is possible to customize infrastructure at these bases for larger aircrafts such as the SU35. I would also not be surprised if PAF's interest is linked to recent Chinese purchase of SU35s or maybe even if the interest is based on an understanding reached with the Chinese. Chinese operating the aircraft is a hedge against the risk of sanctions and secondly having infrastructure in place for a common aircraft will allow PLAAF to bring in its own assets to PAF bases, if needed, in times of a crisis. Right now, PAF and PLAAF do not have common first line fighter aircraft. Same goes for support bases for Chinese subs and ships. So in my opinion there might be more to the SU35 news than meets the eye and the news should not be summarily rejected.

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## waz

Off-topic rubbish, silly one liners and other talk will be deleted. If you persist then more direct action will be taken against you.

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## knight11

Bossman said:


> How China Plans to Use the Su-35 | The Diplomat
> 
> This article provide good insights into utility of SU35s for China which I think will also become relevant to the Arabian Sea in due course of time. After completion of the CEPC, Arabian Sea will become the second most important sea to the Chinese after the South China sea and hence Gwadar and CEPC will require different layers of defence including sub-surface (6 new subs), surface (6 new MSA patrol ships plus new orders for larger ships expected) and finally long-range airborne assets. Among other, one of the challenges with SU35 and similar aircrafts for PAF is that they cannot leverage existing PAF infrastructure i.e. they will not fit in our existing HAS etc. So complete new infrastructure will be needed. Pakistan has started constructed of two new bases in the South one in Turbat and other just south of Hyderabad. It is possible to customize infrastructure at these bases for larger aircrafts such as the SU35. I would also not be surprised if PAF's interest is linked to recent Chinese purchase of SU35s or maybe even if the interest is based on an understanding reached with the Chinese. Chinese operating the aircraft is a hedge against the risk of sanctions and secondly having infrastructure in place for a common aircraft will allow PLAAF to bring in its own assets to PAF bases, if needed in times of a crisis. Right now, PAF and PLAAF do not have common first line fighter aircraft. Same goes for support bases for Chinese subs and ships. So in my opinion there might be more to the SU35 news than meets the eye and the news should not be summarily rejected.


Such a Brotherhood from the all weather friend China to have the a common front line Fighter Plane heck they didn't supplied PL-12 BVR instead of SD-10, PL-9C instead of inferior PL-5E with the JF-17 Package. Chinese love for SU-35s is due to its AESA RADAR IBRIS-E and the Superior Engine Technology because he failed to make those despite running two 5th Gen Fighter Jet program, as these high end tech is locked deep inside Russian Teritory rather than other CIS state like Ukraine and China is unable to get her hands on the IPR and Blueprint of them which she fully exploited to fill its industrial and r&d gap by pouring its freely available money.

As far as the Gadawar is concerned since its a deep water port and its not useful for the naval base and China using the CPEC running across the Earthquake zone for importing oil from middle east, is increasing the import from Russia.


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## Mr.Nair

waz said:


> Off-topic rubbish, silly one liners and other talk will be deleted. If you persist then more direct action will be taken against you.



Ok agreed, then why every pakistani's can make free speech calling every thread of indian prime minister as 'terro**t'.
Is this ok in this forum rule calling the same by us about pakistan pm, even though we never do that.Some times we are forced to go off topic by others.


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## waz

Mr.Nair said:


> Ok agreed, then why every pakistani's can make free speech calling every thread of indian prime minister as 'terro**t'.
> Is this ok in this forum rule calling the same by us about pakistan pm, even though we never do that.Some times we are forced to go off topic by others.



It applies to all. Take a look, several Pakistani posts were deleted.

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## Khanivore

SipahSalar said:


> I don't see the sense in going for SU-35. Even if we ignore the costs, _the logistical requirements will be too much._


Look, let's be honest, I think if PAF sits in denial any longer based on this worn-out logic then it will have a mammoth task fighting back the Su-30MKIs, Mig-29s and Rafales. This Su-35 is just the right platform to carry and fire an effective salvo of potent Russian BVRs and all-aspect SRAAMs, something which the West will not provide without a serious nose-bleed (i.e. costly) or strings attached. Mind you it would be interesting to find out what strings the Russians will attach, if any.


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## Mr.Nair

waz said:


> It applies to all. Take a look, several Pakistani posts were deleted.



Good.I am not referring to this thread but many thread, lot of pakistani's(not all) labelling our pm as a terr***s.This is not good and once moderators take strict action, they will not continue.I have seen many post by them free to abuse some one's religion which is not good and please try to take strict actions.


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## Hiptullha

Mr.Nair said:


> Ok agreed, then why every pakistani's can make free speech calling every thread of indian prime minister as 'terro**t'.
> Is this ok in this forum rule calling the same by us about pakistan pm, even though we never do that.Some times we are forced to go off topic by others.



What do you PDF Indians like to say? Call a spade a spade, amirite?

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## AtiF Malang

Zulam hai Zulam bhai jan . bachay nay subha say kuch nahi kiya bas aes NEWS ko parh kay khush ho raha hai aur Zalim Pakistaniyo ko masoom ki lhushi raas nahi arahi :/


RoadRunner401 said:


> LOL before you jump up and down with excitement EinStein, our jf17 is powered by Russian engines. Which at the time, if I remember correctly was also denied by the Russians to please the Indians.
> 
> 
> Hey
> what happened to that's 126 Rafale deal


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## That Guy

Muhammad Omar said:


> But still we will need 4 and 4.5 gen jets..... I don't think that PAF will but 100's of 5th Generation jets...
> 
> like i always say...
> 
> 150 JF-17 are taking place of F-7's
> which jet is gonna take place of 75 Mirages? (for a moment let me suppose 5th gen jet will take it's place) then
> what about that time when our F-16's will be old which is about 7-10 years from now what plane will take F-16's plane...??
> 
> 
> and sooner or Later we will need a Naval wing at least some jets to Counter India's naval fleet (MiG-29, Jaguar, Naval version of Tejas)


The F-16s are going to be fine for at least the next 20 years, the mirages will be replaced by newer JF-17 blocks, and PAF doesn't need 100 new 5th gen, it only needs 30-50 (PAF is a defensive force, it doesn't need offensive capability).

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## Bossman

knight11 said:


> Such a Brotherhood from the all weather friend China to have the a common front line Fighter Plane heck they didn't supplied PL-12 BVR instead of SD-10, PL-9C instead of inferior PL-5E with the JF-17 Package. Chinese love for SU-35s is due to its AESA RADAR IBRIS-E and the Superior Engine Technology because he failed to make those despite running two 5th Gen Fighter Jet program, as these high end tech is locked deep inside Russian Teritory rather than other CIS state like Ukraine and China is unable to get her hands on the IPR and Blueprint of them which she fully exploited to fill its industrial and r&d gap by pouring its freely available money.
> 
> As far as the Gadawar is concerned since its a deep water port and its not useful for the naval base and China using the CPEC running across the Earthquake zone for importing oil from middle east, is increasing the import from Russia.



Totally childish and emotional logic. We get what serves our needs. It does have to be the best. It has to be reliable and cost effective. Also do some research before you write. PL12 is just another designation for SD10. PL5E is very close to AIM9 M, which we also have, and is a very effective missile. It almost half the weight of PL8/9 and more suitable for smaller jets like JF 17. 
Unlike India our military procurement works despite less resources and we get more bang for the buck. You guys go for the mother of all deals and fail miserably for example MRMCA or T 50. Gwader and CEPC is not about oil, it's about dominating and check mating India in the Indian Ocean. By the time you realize that it will be too late. Trade is just secondary.


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## 09ee97

That Guy said:


> The F-16s are going to be fine for at least the next 20 years, the mirages will be replaced by newer JF-17 blocks, and PAF doesn't need 100 new 5th gen, it only needs 30-50 (PAF is a defensive force, it doesn't need offensive capability).


Economy, Economy and Economy. Its the only thing which can help our defence, not a squadron of 6th generation stealth fighters on loans or nuclear bombs/triads. We need to save up, invest on people's future and then these people will give you the technological revolution we have long been seeking. F16s are enough for terrorists and so are our JF-17s and i don't think we should haste our decision based on the fact that India is getting hands on Rafales. India is a big country. It needs to balance china in the region. Engaging war with them will be a suicidal just as any country engaging war with Russia or USA.

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## Mutakalim

Last Samuri said:


> If you get the SU35 from Russia.
> 
> I WILL PUBLICALLY APOLOGISE


Who are you. We don't care about you and your apologies. Useless rants.

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## black-hawk_101

When the deal is expected to be finalized? Any possibility of deal of another 32+ F-16 block52s?


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## aamerjamal

Sulla said:


> A pakistani calling India a failed state lol. Economy of failed Pakistan is somewhere equal to our one state Mumbai. Is the reason why people from a developed country like pakistan are running for refugee status in west ?


by this defination Our One City Karachi is 70% of you whole Super State Mumbai...
now get a life u improve ur economy in just last 15 years rest of the years from independence, its Pakistan that enjoy it and soon it will again...........
After Watching you indian the famous words suit your kind comes in my mind
' No Dolatiye'

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## New Resolve

Rafale deal might have to be cancelled, Russians are not happy with the French after what the French did to them in the Mistral deal. Time for India to prove what a loyal ally it is.

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## Indus Falcon

aamerjamal said:


> by this defination Our One City Karachi is 70% of you whole Super State Mumbai...
> now get a life u improve ur economy in just last 15 years rest of the years from independence, its Pakistan that enjoy it and soon it will again...........
> After Watching you indian the famous words suit your kind comes in my mind
> ' No Dolatiye'


There is another word that comes to mind as well "bayghairat"

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## aamerjamal

Indus Falcon said:


> There is another word that comes to mind as well "bayghairat"


i mix would be more suitable 'bayghairat No Dolatiye'

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## mkg00179504

Last Samuri said:


> THIS IS WHAT THE FLANKER IS ALL ABOUT ENJOY


Buzz me when SU or a Mig scores against teens , that includes F15,16 and 18.


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## Pindi Boy

To live peaceful we needs weapons to keep our enemies calm

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## mkg00179504

Rovel said:


> Oh man this argument has been repeated several types by the Pakistanis and yet I see pakistani members claiming here that they need su 35 to counter Indian su because f16 can't handle them.
> Wake me up when those teens take on sukhois.
> Till then you are free to believe whatever you can.


Let fan boys believe what they want to believe in. F 16 block 52 with Aim 120, Aim 9 JHMS, advance electronics can take on Indian SU 30 any day any time. F 16 block 61 with way advance radar , avionics, EW and missile systems is an over kill for SU 30 or a MIG. Fan boys can come up with all the bs in the world but it stays bs.you can't just deny the outstanding record of F 16, F 15. There is a reason F 16 is still the front line fighter of many air forces in the world. Pulling cobra maneuvers is good in air shows, but getting kills in a highly dense electronic warefare environment and surviving in crazy jamming environment is completely a different game.


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## knight11

Bossman said:


> Totally childish and emotional logic. We get what serves our needs. It does have to be the best. It has to be reliable and cost effective. Also do some research before you write. PL12 is just another designation for SD10. PL5E is very close to AIM9 M, which we also have, and is a very effective missile. It almost half the weight of PL8/9 and more suitable for smaller jets like JF 17.
> Unlike India our military procurement works despite less resources and we get more bang for the buck. You guys go for the mother of all deals and fail miserably for example MRMCA or T 50. Gwader and CEPC is not about oil, it's about dominating and check mating India in the Indian Ocean. By the time you realize that it will be too late. Trade is just secondary.


Mr. Bossman now do you want me to explain every little bit, use your brain and don't make it a childish and emotional logic from the factual one. No body needs to do any research SD10A is the export variant of PL12 and there is no need to explain why export variant are somewhat inferior to the original one. About PL9C and PL5E keep thinking logically.

Unlike India your military procurement works but with the aroma of Soft Loans and Gifts and what bang is *"Losers are never the Choosers"*. Regarding MMRCA update yourself 36 Rafales are ordered in flyaway conditions are coming and pls update that its not 126 Jet but 189 Jet, rest will be manufactured in India. T50 ?? what is that

You have lot of hopes of Gwadar which will be warehouse base of the Chinese material with export items readily available to be exported/designated for the Africa and middle asia just like Colombo. And there is another port Chah Bar, hope you know that which have much more better infrastructure and securities and the port thru which CAR countries wanted to reach Arabian Sea. How do you know that Chinese are not interested in ChahBar and the there is no concerned of Chinese for the security thanxs to the turmoil in your country and the natural threats laid by the Mother Nature, you might have forgotten the memories of 2010 Earthquake.


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## Pindi Boy

09ee97 said:


> How about no? 2 billion dollars = 200 billion rupees. Spend this much on people, education, health and infrastructure and you will see a change. Not everybody wants modern air crafts, nukes and wars. Several of us want to live a peaceful life.



bech kar talwarain mussalle kharid liye hum ne ..................


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## knight11

mkg00179504 said:


> Let fan boys believe what they want to believe in. F 16 block 52 with Aim 120, Aim 9 JHMS, advance electronics can take on Indian SU 30 any day any time. F 16 block 61 with way advance radar , avionics, EW and missile systems is an over kill for SU 30 or a MIG. Fan boys can come up with all the bs in the world but it stays bs.you can't just deny the outstanding record of F 16, F 15. There is a reason F 16 is still the front line fighter of many air forces in the world. Pulling cobra maneuvers is good in air shows, but getting kills in a highly dense electronic warefare environment and surviving in crazy jamming environment is completely a different game.


Over statement/accessment regarding block 52 which PAF possess.

1. Its AIM 120C5 not 120C7,

2. Aim 9 or AIM 9x ? Have you checked the deadly r73 Archer. Do watch Python 4/5 promo video available on youtube.

3. Hopefully you know that the most advance F16 of PAF have mesa radar as compare to Pesa RLSU-30MK NO-11M 'Bars'. And pls update that all of them will be deep upgraded to Super Sukhoi program to Aesa in the league of IBRIS-E which Su-35 possess, RD77 (upgraded), EW suites in the league of Spectra including virgilus jammer, SAABs RWR, MAWS, Decows etc.

4. No body does cobra maneuvers in India in any airshows but update its MIG 29UPG and Mig29K of Indian Navy air wing. Infact Mig 29UPG, Mirrage 2000UPG, Mig27UPG and Jaguar Darlin 3 are more than enough to overwirmed PAF and including Rafale, Su30MKI is an overkill because they are meant for the deterance against PLAAF and their Bases are not deployed closed to Pakistan.


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## mkg00179504

Rovel said:


> Even though 52+ is advanced still it can't handle su 30.
> Let me remind you Pakistan only have 18 52+ against 240+ su.
> Let me remind you one more thing
> India took delivery of 40 super sukhois which include AESA radar, brqmhos and advanced avionics.
> All the sukhois will be upgraded to super sukhois in phases till 2020 with AESA, new engines, EW suites made for PAK fa and Bramhos.
> So you can think what are you against.


Now you went complete retard with brahmos,PAK FA 2020. You forgot to put in that 200-300 km BVR missile bs. All PAF F 16 are upgraded to block 50/52 standards. There is F 16 thread on this forum care to read it first. Come back in 2020 when you have all this ready along with your decade old MMRCA saga and the kid teja. My money is on Aim 120, no BVR in your Air Force can match it. It's proven and the record speaks for itself. Provide me a credible source where F 16 block 50/52 can't handle SU 30. It's the other way around if a destroyer class RCS SU 30 can actually handle Aim 120. Look like Air Forces around the world has to take your considerations since they have F 16 as their front line fighter. Fan boys can come up all kind of bs but that does not change anything because the largest F 16 operator the US is still using F 16 block 40s for front line duties and by the way that super duper SU 30 was roasted by these F 16s at Nellis. Not the new block 52 or 60/61.

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## My-Analogous

[Bregs] said:


> India has retired or is about to retire its MI 35 Hind helis as they are too heavy to be used in high zone conflicts
> 
> lol your smiley are always cool



Mate: F16 also retiring so question is that did it lost is effectiveness?. Answer is no and when platform got mature it will be more effective and it will have more goodies in it.



Sulla said:


> had you been to a proper school and not madarsha, you would have understand that if Mumbai GDP > or = to Pakistan economy then how can Karachican be > or = Mumbai.



You need education b/c school = Madarsa (not madarsha) it come from Arabic which mean school. So before pointing on other first look for your self and without proper knowledge don't comments.

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## mkg00179504

knight11 said:


> Over statement/accessment regarding block 52 which PAF possess.
> 
> 1. Its AIM 120C5 not 120C7,
> 
> 2. Aim 9 or AIM 9x ? Have you checked the deadly r73 Archer. Do watch Python 4/5 promo video available on youtube.
> 
> 3. Hopefully you know that the most advance F16 of PAF have mesa radar as compare to Pesa RLSU-30MK NO-11M 'Bars'. And pls update that all of them will be deep upgraded to Super Sukhoi program to Aesa in the league of IBRIS-E which Su-35 possess, RD77 (upgraded), EW suites in the league of Spectra including virgilus jammer, SAABs RWR, MAWS, Decows etc.
> 
> 4. No body does cobra maneuvers in India in any airshows but update its MIG 29UPG and Mig29K of Indian Navy air wing. Infact Mig 29UPG, Mirrage 2000UPG, Mig27UPG and Jaguar Darlin 3 are more than enough to overwirmed PAF and including Rafale, Su30MKI is an overkill because they are meant for the deterance against PLAAF and their Bases are not deployed closed to Pakistan.


 Aim 120 C5 is good enough to knock out MKI. I do not need to see YouTube promos of anything. That does not prove anything at all. Same goes for your R 77 . I do not need to know what the manufacture says about it. Give me a real scenario where it was able to knock out anything. If there is one ??? Or wait a min it actually never happened. You keep watching YouTube videos and will make you feel good, it will help you sleep good while your friend Israelis are using the same Aim series missiles, God they are stupid. 
Come back when you upgrade your destroyer class SU 30 in the league of many thing things but not the actual, and also when a decade old MMRCA is finalized which has yet to take place. 
Good to know MIG 27 can fly along with rusted jaguar.
My good old organic chemistry professor used to say "all reactions are possible on paper but it really happens in reality, NO"
On paper fighter jets are one thing. Performing in the air is another and then performing in dense electronic environment in the war where many factors are involved is completely different.


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> shut up u moron


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## batmannow

Trisonics said:


> I think so too.. the world at your feet if they mess with ya. Good work!


Not at all , but we can give our enemies some rock & roll moments & that's enough for us ?
Are you one of them ?



GURU DUTT said:


>


Wow Moran looks like that ?lolzz

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## Last Samuri

Can we keep out the rusty old f16 of paf from thus thread.

This is about the joy and excitement of Pakistanis buying s proper fighter the su35 flankers.

And stop comparing the combat record of USA f16 who have satalites aesa radars and massive awacs and numerical supremacy with paf who has 1% the combat capability of USA pilots due to these factors.

USA can win with piston engines you people can't you have no finances to fight a largecconventional war

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## batmannow

mkg00179504 said:


> Aim 120 C5 is good enough to knock out MKI. I do not need to see YouTube promos of anything. That does not prove anything at all. Same goes for your R 77 . I do not need to know what the manufacture says about it. Give me a real scenario where it was able to knock out anything. If there is one ??? Or wait a min it actually never happened. You keep watching YouTube videos and will make you feel good, it will help you sleep good while your friend Israelis are using the same Aim series missiles, God they are stupid.
> Come back when you upgrade your destroyer class SU 30 in the league of many thing things but not the actual, and also when a decade old MMRCA is finalized which has yet to take place.
> Good to know MIG 27 can fly along with rusted jaguar.
> My good old organic chemistry professor used to say "all reactions are possible on paper but it really happens in reality, NO"
> On paper fighter jets are one thing. Performing in the air is another and then performing in dense electronic environment in the war where many factors are involved is completely different.


If all the world take classes with your professor today USA won't be manufacturing RAPPTORS &F35s right ?
Modernizations take places with the advancement of experiences in any filed specially advance weapons are thought tried 100 times no country in this world would like to spend a dam cent on anything which can't prove it self ?
So my dear , don't define us what your professer has said about what & when to whom ?


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> If all the world take classes with your professor today USA won't be manufacturing RAPPTORS &F35s right ?
> Modernizations take places with the advancement of experiences in any filed specially advance weapons are thought tried 100 times no country in this world would like to spend a dam cent on anything which can't prove it self ?
> So my dear , don't define us what your professer has said about what & when to whom ?


forget the professorr wise guy point is pakistan can onli dream to match india in any field like latest fighter jets or BVRs .... + many pakistanies want to beleve that since MKI has a big RCS its an easy kill but what they forget is its highli advanced and masive radar , EW suites and self protection jammers even if they forget that a single MKI carries twice the number of BVRs than a F-16 and almost thrice that of a JF-17 and has an active and passive ability to track lock on and fire BVRs at a F-16 or JF-17 even before they have a track on it .... think about that


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## mkg00179504

Rovel said:


> Oh man so much for being in love with teens.
> You don't have to believe that India has any BVR capability because you have made your mind with the same rhetoric just like a fan boy as you did in previous post.
> The main point that the f16 was successful in securing orders from so many countries was because they were critical of RUSSIA and also were close to US many countries wanted to buy flankers from russia but they were not allowed.
> Here you say that.
> 'Buzz me when sukhois can take on teens'.
> I gave you the same analogy
> Has any teens been able to defeat SU?
> *No, then wake me up when they do*.
> Now as you have pointed towards the NRed flag Exercise fiasco then please get educated that the story of TERENCE FORNOFF had been debunked many times.
> So stop living in your dreams and look at the big picture.
> Our MIGs were inducted in keeping f16 in mind which will be upgraded to UPG level, MIRAGE 2000 M2k, and JAGAUAR darin 3 are more than a match for f16 we don't need su for Pakistan if you take all the resources in mind.


Here I wake you up. Do your self a favor check the Internet for F 16 and F 15 kills against MiGs and SU. Both teens are consider butchers for MiGs. And yes by your standards jagauar is indeed more than a match for F 16. Give it a rest.



batmannow said:


> If all the world take classes with your professor today USA won't be manufacturing RAPPTORS &F35s right ?
> Modernizations take places with the advancement of experiences in any filed specially advance weapons are thought tried 100 times no country in this world would like to spend a dam cent on anything which can't prove it self ?
> So my dear , don't define us what your professer has said about what & when to whom ?


U.S Will be manufacturing F 35 but it will gets beating at the Hands of decades old F 16 just because the paper says F 35 has superior specs.


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## Pindi Boy

batmannow said:


> Not at all , but we can give our enemies some rock & roll moments & that's enough for us ?
> Are you one of them ?
> 
> 
> Wow Moran looks like that ?lolzz


 THESE ARE TRUE MORONS

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> forget the professorr wise guy point is pakistan can onli dream to match india in any field like latest fighter jets or BVRs .... + many pakistanies want to beleve that since MKI has a big RCS its an easy kill but what they forget is its highli advanced and masive radar , EW suites and self protection jammers even if they forget that a single MKI carries twice the number of BVRs than a F-16 and almost thrice that of a JF-17 and has an active and passive ability to track a F-16 or JF-17 even before they have a lock on it .... think about that


We pakistanis never thought to match anyone instead we are just looking at the threats which we can counter ?
& with SU 35 we are sure ,that no air strike force will ever to return back from our skies ?
That's the bottom line is & was ?
Get it ......?


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> We pakistanis never thought to match anyone instead we are just looking at the threats which we can counter ?
> & with SU 35 we are sure ,that no air strike force will ever to return back from our skies ?
> That's the bottom line is & was ?
> Get it ......?


ok great but the point is russians dont beleve in charity of defferred payments or soft loans or militarry aid they onli do talking when "hard cash" is involved .... do you have it


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## knight11

mkg00179504 said:


> Now you went complete retard with brahmos,PAK FA 2020. You forgot to put in that 200-300 km BVR missile bs. All PAF F 16 are upgraded to block 50/52 standards. There is F 16 thread on this forum care to read it first. Come back in 2020 when you have all this ready along with your decade old MMRCA saga and the kid teja. My money is on Aim 120, no BVR in your Air Force can match it. It's proven and the record speaks for itself. Provide me a credible source where F 16 block 50/52 can't handle SU 30. It's the other way around if a destroyer class RCS SU 30 can actually handle Aim 120. Look like Air Forces around the world has to take your considerations since they have F 16 as their front line fighter. Fan boys can come up all kind of bs but that does not change anything because the largest F 16 operator the US is still using F 16 block 40s for front line duties and by the way that super duper SU 30 was roasted by these F 16s at Nellis. Not the new block 52 or 60/61.


Why is that you and most of your fellow countrymen Jinglos still stubbornly persist to dwell in cuckoo-land. Who is the expert or the mentor guiding you all this BS, For your sake take this.

Upgraded to block 50/52 standards means the standards laid by the OEM for the export variants and does not necessary includes all the equipments/weapons possessed by the country's own forces. E.g F16 latest block 50/52 don't possess programmable DRFM. Now comparing with the US F-16 even with older block does not means that they are more advance and have the cutting edge tech which the US possess like Active Jamming, sensors etc which they have according to their needs.

AIM 120 C5 which is supplied for PAF have less range in other word inferior than R-77 and does not have the superior range, top attack profile like AIM 120C7. Actually all the stuffs like what your mentors are telling you like RCS, BVR range etc are all the marketing terms. No body (Airforce, OEM manufacurer) reviels it in the public domains.

Regarding the friendly exercise of the jets are meant to practice the tactics and have no meaning, e.g MKI will not use its BARS which is the main power behind it and keep the radar in training mode for sec racy.
You mind find interested in some of the Super Sukhoi Upgradation plans starting from 2017 in my previous posts.

thanx and regards and think factually

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## batmannow

mkg00179504 said:


> Here I wake you up. Do your self a favor check the Internet for F 16 and F 15 kills against MiGs and SU. Both teens are consider butchers for MiGs. And yes by your standards jagauar is indeed more than a match for F 16. Give it a rest.
> 
> 
> U.S Will be manufacturing F 35 but it will gets beating at the Hands of decades old F 16 just because the paper says F 35 has superior specs.


Cutie Check my threads here !
They are more old then your existence on PDF ?
Nice joke F16 VS F35 ?LOLZZ


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## knight11

mkg00179504 said:


> Aim 120 C5 is good enough to knock out MKI. I do not need to see YouTube promos of anything. That does not prove anything at all. Same goes for your R 77 . I do not need to know what the manufacture says about it. Give me a real scenario where it was able to knock out anything. If there is one ??? Or wait a min it actually never happened. You keep watching YouTube videos and will make you feel good, it will help you sleep good while your friend Israelis are using the same Aim series missiles, God they are stupid.
> Come back when you upgrade your destroyer class SU 30 in the league of many thing things but not the actual, and also when a decade old MMRCA is finalized which has yet to take place.
> Good to know MIG 27 can fly along with rusted jaguar.
> My good old organic chemistry professor used to say "all reactions are possible on paper but it really happens in reality, NO"
> On paper fighter jets are one thing. Performing in the air is another and then performing in dense electronic environment in the war where many factors are involved is completely different.


I Wasted my time on the idiot like you
Stay in the world at your own peril
You forgot what your Physics teacher used to say that every thing in this world bound to follow the rules of physics

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## mkg00179504

GURU DUTT said:


> forget the professorr wise guy point is pakistan can onli dream to match india in any field like latest fighter jets or BVRs .... + many pakistanies want to beleve that since MKI has a big RCS its an easy kill but what they forget is its highli advanced and masive radar , EW suites and self protection jammers even if they forget that a single MKI carries twice the number of BVRs than a F-16 and almost thrice that of a JF-17 and has an active and passive ability to track a F-16 or JF-17 even before they have a lock on it .... think about that


 What you will do with a massive radar when you don't have a massive missile to support it. In the presence of AWACS the advantage of having a massive radar is gone. I rather have a decent radar which is prone to jamming and will work effectively during the war when jamming is at its peak. If it's only about BVRs then air forces around the world can just purchase a squadron or two of BVR trucks and should be good to go. If you cant hit another jet with 2 BVRs or 3 what makes you think you will be able to hit him after that when you both are approaching at such fast speed that you are about to enter into WVR. There are reasons multi role fighters carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR. Once you get rid of these you are already exhausted because you applied so much energy. I am not saying this because I am not a pilot but my bro in law is a fighter pilot, this is what he always says and I hear the same thing from his colleages. One thing I must say that they do visit this forum as a guest and they laugh at our discussions. I am not saying you but generally how we talk about things here.



knight11 said:


> I Wasted my time on the idiot like you
> Stay in the world at your own peril
> You forgot what your Physics teacher used to say that every thing in this world bound to follow the rules of physics


No I didn't but you did forget to watch YouTube promos. Keep up with promos.


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> ok great but the point is russians dont beleve in charity of defferred payments or soft loans or militarry aid they onli do talking when "hard cash" is involved .... do you have it


I don't think that you are spokesman for Russian govt ?
Just remember world is changing just imagine few years back ?
Su35 for Pakistan coming out of Russian depty FM? OH unbelievable ?right
So , don't be worry about finances GIANT DRAGON is the one , moving this world financially these days ?
We I'll take you down without firing a single bullet ?


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## Pindi Boy

knight11 said:


> Why is that you and most of your fellow countrymen Jinglos still stubbornly persist to dwell in cuckoo-land. Who is the expert or the mentor guiding you all this BS, For your sake take this.
> 
> Upgraded to block 50/52 standards means the standards laid by the OEM for the export variants and does not necessary includes all the equipments/weapons possessed by the country's own forces. E.g F16 latest block 50/52 don't possess programmable DRFM. Now comparing with the US F-16 even with older block does not means that they are more advance and have the cutting edge tech which the US possess like Active Jamming, sensors etc which they have according to their needs.
> 
> AIM 120 C5 which is supplied for PAF have less range in other word inferior than R-77 and does not have the superior range, top attack profile like AIM 120C7. Actually all the stuffs like what your mentors are telling you like RCS, BVR range etc are all the marketing terms. No body (Airforce, OEM manufacurer) reviels it in the public domains.
> 
> Regarding the friendly exercise of the jets are meant to practice the tactics and have no meaning, e.g MKI will not use its BARS which is the main power behind it and keep the radar in training mode for sec racy.
> You mind find interested in some of the Super Sukhoi Upgradation plans starting from 2017 in my previous posts.
> 
> thanx and regards and think factually


Dear Indian Trolls.

Indians love to play this "i've got so many toys, & they're bigger than yours". Ah, their superiority complex.

Obviously you guys will always have bigger armed forces, with more military inventory, than Pakistan. We don't have that much land mass to protect, nor we have 1.25 BILLION people! jeez.

You guys need to compete with country like China than to be infatuated with a smaller country of 190 million people lol but we know that's not going to happen, you & your RSS terrorist Modi will always stay stuck up with Pakistan.

kuch sharam hie karlo yaar

btw, feel sorry for Indians. I know it has been hard for you guys ever since Muhammad Bin Qasim set his foot in Indian sub continent, must've had adverse effect on your pea sized brains after 800 years of Muslim rule, then British rule, then seeing India break into pieces in 1947. I can understand your frustrations, unfortunately there is no cure for bum burns, got to deal with us



GURU DUTT said:


> ok great but the point is russians dont beleve in charity of defferred payments or soft loans or militarry aid they onli do talking when "hard cash" is involved .... do you have it



*Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.*

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## mkg00179504

batmannow said:


> Cutie Check my threads here !
> They are more old then your existence on PDF ?
> Nice joke F16 VS F35 ?LOLZZ


What I have to do with your threads. You can go back to them and feel good about yourself. And yes F16 vs F 35 was lolzz, lots of people had to
Come up with answers.


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## batmannow

all of our worried & sad INDIAN friends pls check the video , they are giving us SU -35 ?lolzz


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## Pindi Boy

batmannow said:


> Cutie Check my threads here !
> They are more old then your existence on PDF ?
> Nice joke F16 VS F35 ?LOLZZ



LOOKING LIKE KARAN ARJUN KI JORRI


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## 09ee97

usama fiaz said:


> *Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.*


Ours is no better. Do you know what happened at THAR? Do you know what is the condition of 50% Pakistanis who are living in extreme poverty? Do you know that not all of Pakistanis live in DHA/Bahria Societies? That there is same if not worse condition of poor crying for help? But hey, Lets just keep on finding mistakes in others because that's how we will make progress.


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## batmannow

mkg00179504 said:


> What I have to do with your threads. You can go back to them and feel good about yourself. And yes F16 vs F 35 was lolzz, lots of people had to
> Come up with answers.


Sure Mr , back to future ?lol
Americans are. Fools they throw tons of cash on RAPTORS & F-35 ? just say yes then turn your face to any mirror ?


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## GURU DUTT

mkg00179504 said:


> What you will do with a massive radar when you don't have a massive missile to support it. In the presence of AWACS the advantage of having a massive radar is gone. I rather have a decent radar which is prone to jamming and will work effectively during the war when jamming is at its peak. If it's only about BVRs then air forces around the world can just purchase a squadron or two of BVR trucks and should be good to go. If you cant hit another jet with 2 BVRs or 3 what makes you think you will be able to hit him after that when you both are approaching at such fast speed that you are about to enter into WVR. There are reasons multi role fighters carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR. Once you get rid of these you are already exhausted because you applied so much energy. I am not saying this because I am not a pilot but my bro in law is a fighter pilot, this is what he always says and I hear the same thing from his colleages. One thing I must say that they do visit this forum as a guest and they laugh at our discussions. I am not saying you but generally how we talk about things here.
> 
> 
> No I didn't but you did forget to watch YouTube promos. Keep up with promos.


well do you have any idea about russian , french and israeli BVRs in indian innoventorry ?

do you have any idea about Indian ground , aerostat and AWACS based radars ? 

now about the air fight scenario well we already have both active and passive very long rance BVRs think of it like this owr ground and aresotata based radars are deep inside indian border but are capable of tracking a fighyter sized target as far as an airbase in FATA regeon and unlike you all owr assets are interlinked so an MKI say flying over bhatinda can lock on a tartget as far as 125miles(trust me or ask a PAF high ranking officer we have BVRs for that kinnda range) and its not just you who has AWACS advantage .... there is a reason why Phalcon is known to be worlds best AWACS.... but then i dont want to burst your bubble keep dreaming its gonna be a nice target practice for indian fighter jets 



batmannow said:


> I don't think that you are spokesman for Russian govt ?
> Just remember world is changing just imagine few years back ?
> Su35 for Pakistan coming out of Russian depty FM? OH unbelievable ?right
> So , don't be worry about finances GIANT DRAGON is the one , moving this world financially these days ?
> We I'll take you down without firing a single bullet ?


in short : money talk bull**** walks 



usama fiaz said:


> Dear Indian Trolls.
> 
> Indians love to play this "i've got so many toys, & they're bigger than yours". Ah, their superiority complex.
> 
> Obviously you guys will always have bigger armed forces, with more military inventory, than Pakistan. We don't have that much land mass to protect, nor we have 1.25 BILLION people! jeez.
> 
> You guys need to compete with country like China than to be infatuated with a smaller country of 190 million people lol but we know that's not going to happen, you & your RSS terrorist Modi will always stay stuck up with Pakistan.
> 
> kuch sharam hie karlo yaar
> 
> btw, feel sorry for Indians. I know it has been hard for you guys ever since Muhammad Bin Qasim set his foot in Indian sub continent, must've had adverse effect on your pea sized brains after 800 years of Muslim rule, then British rule, then seeing India break into pieces in 1947. I can understand your frustrations, unfortunately there is no cure for bum burns, got to deal with us
> 
> 
> 
> *Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.*


sirji who says rivers of honey and milk are floweing in india ... do they are in pakistan 

we might be a poor and devloping nation but we are working hard to change owr destiny instead of holding every one lese responsible for your own condition and denying your "blunders,plunders&surrenders"

we might be not a rich nation like pakistan but are good enof that we dont run with a "kashkol" in owr hand but make tag lines like "kashkol torr denge" and to save owr economy from going bankrupt and are forced to do a job of a paid mercenarry for USA so to get US AID and IMF & WB handowts


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> well do you have any idea about russian , french and israeli BVRs in indian innoventorry ?
> 
> do you have any idea about Indian ground , aerostat and AWACS based radars ?
> 
> now about the air fight scenario well we already have both active and passive very long rance BVRs think of it like this owr ground and aresotata based radars are deep inside indian border but are capable of tracking a fighyter sized target as far as an airbase in FATA regeon and unlike you all owr assets are interlinked so an MKI say flying over bhatinda can lock on a tartget as far as 125miles(trust me or ask a PAF high ranking officer we have BVRs for that kinnda range) and its not just you who has AWACS advantage .... there is a reason why Phalcon is known to be worlds best AWACS.... but then i dont want to burst your bubble keep dreaming its gonna be a nice target practice for indian fighter jets
> 
> 
> in short : money talk bull**** walks


Sure that's what was your mind set ,but we came up always with goodies ?without cash ?
Jf17, our AWACS ,OUR MISSILES , oh don't had the cash ?right ?

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Sure that's what was your mind set ,but we came up always with goodies ?without cash ?
> Jf17, our AWACS ,OUR MISSILES , oh don't had the cash ?right ?


are you sure no JF-17 or any of your fighter jets has crashed  

as for crashing on indian assets well please educate me about crashing of owr AWACS or Missiles


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## mkg00179504

GURU DUTT said:


> well do you have any idea about russian , french and israeli BVRs in indian innoventorry ?
> 
> do you have any idea about Indian ground , aerostat and AWACS based radars ?
> 
> now about the air fight scenario well we already have both active and passive very long rance BVRs think of it like this owr ground and aresotata based radars are deep inside indian border but are capable of tracking a fighyter sized target as far as an airbase in FATA regeon and unlike you all owr assets are interlinked so an MKI say flying over bhatinda can lock on a tartget as far as 125miles(trust me or ask a PAF high ranking officer we have BVRs for that kinnda range) and its not just you who has AWACS advantage .... there is a reason why Phalcon is known to be worlds best AWACS.... but then i dont want to burst your bubble keep dreaming its gonna be a nice target practice for indian fighter jets
> 
> 
> in short : money talk bull**** walks [/QUOTE
> Lol, in 2008 I was able to see air movement inside India and we are in 2015, wake up. There are things I don't want to say here in open public. Who says Phalcon is the world best AWACS. You?? Then keep saying. Is Ka koi bill nai ataa. Stop making up things you are in no way able to see that far into another country. That 125 miles BVR is enough evidence that you are indeed a fanboy.


----------



## knight11

usama fiaz said:


> Dear Indian Trolls.
> 
> Indians love to play this "i've got so many toys, & they're bigger than yours". Ah, their superiority complex.
> 
> Obviously you guys will always have bigger armed forces, with more military inventory, than Pakistan. We don't have that much land mass to protect, nor we have 1.25 BILLION people! jeez.
> 
> You guys need to compete with country like China than to be infatuated with a smaller country of 190 million people lol but we know that's not going to happen, you & your RSS terrorist Modi will always stay stuck up with Pakistan.
> 
> kuch sharam hie karlo yaar
> 
> btw, feel sorry for Indians. I know it has been hard for you guys ever since Muhammad Bin Qasim set his foot in Indian sub continent, must've had adverse effect on your pea sized brains after 800 years of Muslim rule, then British rule, then seeing India break into pieces in 1947. I can understand your frustrations, unfortunately there is no cure for bum burns, got to deal with us
> 
> 
> 
> *Your nation is more poverty-stricken than Sub-Saharan Africa. Who are you trying to call poor? You literally let your countrymen starve to death for your little flashy toys, which serve no purpose, because a nation that is 1/5 the size of India continuously gives the Bhartis the middle finger.*



Compare your post with mine and any person with brain inside his/her skull will point out which is Troll and rubbish BS.
I was not comparing any toys with anybody but my Intentions was to correct the poster and make the poster to think factually which even I fails was my attempt unbiased.

Regarding this quote which is undoubtedly Rubbish, senseless, Bull Sh*t presents the authors mentality.

Few questions and answer pointwise, unbiased

1. Is Moh. Bin Qasem is your ancestor/forefather
2. When was RSS or Modi was declared terrorist organisation and terrorist by any country including Pakistan
3. Which is the best place for the terrorist to hide and dwell.
4. Does wasting time in writing baseless and rubbish things shows the lack of knowledge in the topic or its just it makes you feel good.


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## GURU DUTT

well this is just one 

K-100 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> are you sure no JF-17 or any of your fighter jets has crashed
> 
> as for crashing on indian assets well please educate me about crashing of owr AWACS or Missiles


Crashing jf 17 ? Where it comes in ?
I think we are talking about apples ?lolzz


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## knight11

GURU DUTT said:


> well do you have any idea about russian , french and israeli BVRs in indian innoventorry ?
> 
> do you have any idea about Indian ground , aerostat and AWACS based radars ?
> 
> now about the air fight scenario well we already have both active and passive very long rance BVRs think of it like this owr ground and aresotata based radars are deep inside indian border but are capable of tracking a fighyter sized target as far as an airbase in FATA regeon and unlike you all owr assets are interlinked so an MKI say flying over bhatinda can lock on a tartget as far as 125miles(trust me or ask a PAF high ranking officer we have BVRs for that kinnda range) and its not just you who has AWACS advantage .... there is a reason why Phalcon is known to be worlds best AWACS.... but then i dont want to burst your bubble keep dreaming its gonna be a nice target practice for indian fighter jets
> 
> 
> in short : money talk bull**** walks
> 
> 
> sirji who says rivers of honey and milk are floweing in india ... do they are in pakistan
> 
> we might be a poor and devloping nation but we are working hard to change owr destiny instead of holding every one lese responsible for your own condition and denying your "blunders,plunders&surrenders"
> 
> we might be not a rich nation like pakistan but are good enof that we dont run with a "kashkol" in owr hand but make tag lines like "kashkol torr denge" and to save owr economy from going bankrupt and are forced to do a job of a paid mercenarry for USA so to get US AID and IMF & WB handowts


He don't have much knowledge in this field so don't waste your energy tell him to bring his Pilot Brother next time during discussion.

In short Beggers are never Choosers

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## batmannow

knight11 said:


> He don't have much knowledge in this field so don't waste your energy tell him to bring his Pilot Brother next time during discussion


Thanks Mr sukhoi ?lolzz


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## knight11

batmannow said:


> Thanks Mr sukhoi ?lolzz


You are welcome !!

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## GURU DUTT

knight11 said:


> He don't have much knowledge in this field so don't waste your energy* tell him to bring his Pilot Brother next time during discussion.*
> 
> *In short Beggers are never Choosers*



man that was epic


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## batmannow

knight11 said:


> He don't have much knowledge in this field so don't waste your energy tell him to bring his Pilot Brother next time during discussion.
> 
> In short Beggers are never Choosers


Winners don't chose , they just take what they like ?
Su 35 coming to Pakistan & all the Indian little dreams of cold strat is being burried by its own past time allay ?
& That's called epic ?



knight11 said:


> You are welcome !!


You took it too seriously ?


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## knight11

batmannow said:


> Winners don't chose , they just take what they like ?
> Su 35 coming to Pakistan & all the Indian little dreams of cold strat is being hurried by its own past time allay ?lolzz


Take F-22 than if you have the balls. Are you playing Tambola here to take anything here.

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## batmannow

knight11 said:


> Take F-22 than if you have the balls. Are you playing Tambola here to take anything here.


No F-22 we keep for you ,let's see you can take it in this century ?
Its you Mr hot shot ,trying to be a expert on avionics & all ?


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## Pindi Boy

knight11 said:


> Compare your post with mine and any person with brain inside his/her skull will point out which is Troll and rubbish BS.
> I was not comparing any toys with anybody but my Intentions was to correct the poster and make the poster to think factually which even I fails was my attempt unbiased.
> 
> Regarding this quote which is undoubtedly Rubbish, senseless, Bull Sh*t presents the authors mentality.
> 
> Few questions and answer pointwise, unbiased
> 
> 1. Is Moh. Bin Qasem is your ancestor/forefather
> 2. When was RSS or Modi was declared terrorist organisation and terrorist by any country including Pakistan
> 3. Which is the best place for the terrorist to hide and dwell.
> 4. Does wasting time in writing baseless and rubbish things shows the lack of knowledge in the topic or its just it makes you feel good.


1 YUP HE was my fore father
2 Modi is a terrorist
3 india is the paradise for terrorists as their PM is a terrorist who slaughtered 2000+ muslims in gujrat riots
Google

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## Last Samuri

Gursnteed this su35 thread will be closed by next week as just media misquote

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## knight11

batmannow said:


> No F-22 we keep for you ,let's see you can take it in this century ?
> Its you Mr hot shot ,trying to be a expert on avionics & all ?


You was the one who was claiming Winners takes what ever they wanted.

We have FGFA and AMCA for the future but yes we can buy F35/PAK FA if the requirement persists

When did I claims to be an expert on avionics & all if you feels or thinks that I am wrong in the given information you have full right to differ with facts and most welcome.



usama fiaz said:


> 1 YUP HE was my fore father
> 
> 2 Modi id a terrorist
> 
> 3 india is the paradise for terrorists as their PM is a terrorist whp masscare 2000+ muslims in gujrat riots
> 
> Google



Thanks for the reply

1. Moh. Bin Qasim was the Arab Invader and since he is force feed in you mind from the birth that the History starts from the Qasim coming to Sind, you need to know that lot of Pakistani Intellects thinks it otherwise. Classic example of history bending.

2. My question was when did the Republic of Pakistan Govt. declared Modi as terrorist or by any country and not your statement.

3, India is a paradise for the terrorist just google the world Paradise for terrorist, Epicenter of the Terrorism you will get the answer. 2000 Muslims massacre in Gujrat but none of the pakistani ever commented on the poor Hindu killed prior to the riot in the Sabarmati train which fuel the riot. And if you want to know what real massacre or the genocide means pls get some idea of the PA acts in East Pakistan before the formation of Bangladesh.



Last Samuri said:


> Gursnteed this su35 thread will be closed by next week as just media misquote



Its the acts of the Bandalbaaz generalist who tries to make speculated news by themself from even the sniff from any official mouth or nose.


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## batmannow

Su-35




*Su-35 multi-role fighter*

On the world figh*ter market Russia’s Sukhoi is pinning its hopes, in the near future, on a substantially modernized Su-35 multi-role fighter. The model must be an interim type between today’s Su-30MK in various configurations and a prospective fifth-generation fighter, whose deliveries may start in the second half of the next decade. The Su-35 is a 4++ generation aircraft employing technologies of the fifth generation. They make it superior to all other 4th generation fighters now under development worldwide. In 2009-2015, thanks to these technologies, the Su-35 will dominate the world market, outperforming other proposed multi-role fighters.

The first experimental Su-35, completed in summer 2007 at Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) first appeared at Russia’s MAKS-2007 air show.

A new aircraft with an old name

The Su-35 has long been a brand name in the aviation world. Since 1992, an export version of the Su-27 fighter (created under the order of the Russian Air Force) has been demonstrated at international air shows. At the turn of the millennium, Su-35 fighters participated in the tenders of Korean and Brazilian air forces. By the mid-decade of the new century, a general concept emerged of a considerably modified Su-27 fighter, which retained the name of Su-35.

What is new in the Su-35? First off, the fighter will get an improved airframe, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation). Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27. But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter’s handling capability and maneuverability.

Among the Su-35 design features, worth of note is the absence of an overhead brake flap, a standard characteristic of the Su-27. Its functions are performed by an active rudder. The Su-35 chassis has been reinforced because of the increased takeoff and landing weight of the aircraft. For the same reason, the front bearing has two wheels. The improved radar stealth reduces the reflectance of the Su-35 in the X radio waveband and in the angle range of ±60°.

The “heart” of the aircraft

Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

The 117S engines will be co-produced by Ufa-based Motor Building Association and Rybinsk-based NPO Saturn Research and Production Association. The first production 117S engines were delivered to KnAAPO in early 2007 for testing on the first experimental Su-35 aircraft.

New onboard systems

The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the “all-glass cockpit” concept.

The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

MFI multi-function displays with a built-in processor measure 9 x 12 inches (diagonal 15 inches) and have a resolution of 1400x1050 pixels. They are intended for reception, processing and production, in a multiple window mode, of graphic, numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information. They also present televised information received from onboard TV sensors and impose on it synthesized numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information. Besides, they produce and send video signals in a digital format to the video record unit. The multi-function panel with a built-in display processor presents the required information and issues commands by pushing the buttons on the button array at any time in flight. The airborne collimatory display with a built-in processor monitors the space beyond the cockpit. The information is processed by control signals. The collimator angle of view is 20x30о.

The onboard systems and armament in the new cockpit of Su-35 are controlled by buttons and switches on the aircraft control joystick and engine control levers as well as by a button array on multi-function displays. Thus the HOTAS concept is realized on this type of aircraft. The displays and some other avionics systems of Su-35 are developed by Instrument Design Bureau of Ramenskoye and affiliated companies of Tekhnokompleks Research and Production Association.

“Eyes and ears”

The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll). The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

Being an improvement on radars with a PAA, Irbis has much better capabilities: expanded (by more than twice) operating frequency band, increased from 70о to 120о target detection and tracking zone in azimuth, substantially (by 2-2.5 times) increased effective range, improved anti-jamming capability, etc. In this aspect, Irbis is comparable to the best foreign counterparts, outperforming most of the US- and Wes-European-made radars with passive and active PAA.

The Research Institute has been developing Irbis since 2004. By now, the engineering prototypes of the system have passed the required bench trials. The first of them has been installed on the Su-30MK2 flying laboratory and is undergoing flight tests. The first flight of the flying laboratory with Irbis onboard occurred in early 2007 at Gromov Flight Test Institute. During the flight, the laboratory proved the superior performance of the new radar in the air-to-surface operating mode.

Among other new onboard systems of the Su-35 is modern navigation and radio communication equipment, systems maintaining fighters operation in a formation and a highly efficient electronic countermeasures suite. The component package of the latter and its complementation with specific jamming devices can be determined by the customer.

Armament

In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.*

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## Windjammer

*
It's always fun to put out Indian fires with Gasoline.

*
_*Pakistan holds talks with Russia for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets*
_

*Russian Deputy Foreign Minister terms Pakistan as close partner of his country*



Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has said that his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.

He told Russian News Agency that both the countries had previously agreed upon delivery of these air crafts and modalities for their delivery are being finalized.



The Russian Minister termed Pakistan as close partner of his country hoping that cooperation between the countries will further grow various fields as well including energy.

The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth generation jets.

*Pakistan holds talks with Russia for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets*

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## batmannow

knight11 said:


> You was the one who was claiming Winners takes what ever they wanted.
> 
> We have FGFA and AMCA for the future but yes we can buy F35/PAK FA if the requirement persists
> 
> When did I claims to be an expert on avionics & all if you feels or thinks that I am wrong in the given information you have full right to differ with facts and most welcome.


Is FGFA flying in India or if not when it will be ?
F-35 to India ?when its been offered ?
Any date & any statement by US govt ?
Or it all just your cooked up dreams ? Right !



Last Samuri said:


> Gursnteed this su35 thread will be closed by next week as just media misquote


If not then can you just stop posting in this thread & right that you were wrong as your signature ?


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## Pindi Boy

knight11 said:


> You was the one who was claiming Winners takes what ever they wanted.
> 
> We have FGFA and AMCA for the future but yes we can buy F35/PAK FA if the requirement persists
> 
> When did I claims to be an expert on avionics & all if you feels or thinks that I am wrong in the given information you have full right to differ with facts and most welcome.



have some "dhudo" kido

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## Skywalker

GURU DUTT said:


> man that was epic


Epic in what sense, cause some idiot Indian passed on your remarks or was it epic when you crashed the most safest and brand new c 130j.

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## Windjammer

Skywalker said:


> Epic in what sense, cause some idiot Indian passed on your remarks or was it epic when you crashed the most safest and brand new c 130j.



Nothing more than height of chamcha giri .

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## batmannow

Windjammer said:


> Nothing more than height of chamcha giri .


Don't worry Sir , they are facing a Pakistani super troll here ?lolzz
I will take the dime & shine out of them !

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## My-Analogous

knight11 said:


> Why is that you and most of your fellow countrymen Jinglos still stubbornly persist to dwell in cuckoo-land. Who is the expert or the mentor guiding you all this BS, For your sake take this.
> 
> Upgraded to block 50/52 standards means the standards laid by the OEM for the export variants and does not necessary includes all the equipments/weapons possessed by the country's own forces. E.g F16 latest block 50/52 don't possess programmable DRFM. Now comparing with the US F-16 even with older block does not means that they are more advance and have the cutting edge tech which the US possess like Active Jamming, sensors etc which they have according to their needs.
> 
> AIM 120 C5 which is supplied for PAF have less range in other word inferior than R-77 and does not have the superior range, top attack profile like AIM 120C7. Actually all the stuffs like what your mentors are telling you like RCS, BVR range etc are all the marketing terms. No body (Airforce, OEM manufacurer) reviels it in the public domains.
> 
> Regarding the friendly exercise of the jets are meant to practice the tactics and have no meaning, e.g MKI will not use its BARS which is the main power behind it and keep the radar in training mode for sec racy.
> You mind find interested in some of the Super Sukhoi Upgradation plans starting from 2017 in my previous posts.
> 
> thanx and regards and think factually



Do you know what MLU block 50/52 standard means?. PAF have customize MLU of F16

F-16 Versions - F-16 MLU



GURU DUTT said:


> ok great but the point is russians dont beleve in charity of defferred payments or soft loans or militarry aid they onli do talking when "hard cash" is involved .... do you have it



That is our problem i guess, so we will resolve it by our self.


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## Neuro

Ruskies junk suddenly become wonderful war machine for Pakistan .


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## My-Analogous

batmannow said:


> Don't worry Sir , they are facing a Pakistani super troll here ?lolzz
> I will take the dime & shine out of them !



lets tag. They come up like that.


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## Windjammer

@


batmannow said:


> Don't worry Sir , they are facing a Pakistani super troll here ?lolzz
> I will take the dime & shine out of them !


No need to waste your time with these unemployed Indians.
PAF never gives premature statements or what it's acquiring, however our neighbours are accustomed to living with repeated deadlines and every twist and turn makes head lines in India.....just to keep up the hope.
I mean shooting down 12 Typhoons in an exercise.....how can any one beat that.

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## GURU DUTT

Skywalker said:


> Epic in what sense, cause some idiot Indian passed on your remarks or was it epic when you crashed the most safest and brand new c 130j.


so how does it helps your quest for air supremacy in south asia 

keep dreaming good day


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## knight11

batmannow said:


> Is FGFA flying in India or if not when it will be ?
> F-35 to India ?when its been offered ?
> Any date & any statement by US govt ?
> Or it all just your cooked up dreams ? Right !
> 
> 
> If not then can you just stop posting in this thread & right that you were wrong as your signature ?


FGFA which will be based on PAK FA prototype being developed by Russia and partially funded by India is still on designed phase and the designed is not still frozen. HAL will be prime contractor-cum manufacturer. Prototypes PAK FA is flying in Russian and testing and R&D is going on with the different Engine since the main prime engine haven't ready yet. Regarding F-35 Indian Navy is showing interest in F-35B for its future carriers and send enquiry for the same. No it was never offered to India officially in any Public domain but don't see any problem in its acquisition. There is a long list of the future customer including US, USN, UK, Australia, Turkey and Israel so India have to wait for the long time after the full scale production starts up.

Nothing is cooked up dreams you can get all the information from the newspapers

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## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


> Do you know what MLU block 50/52 standard means?. PAF have customize MLU of F16
> 
> F-16 Versions - F-16 MLU
> 
> 
> 
> That is our problem i guess, so we will resolve it by our self.


great for you with F-16 MLU but what if i told you your F-16s cant fly without american experts(permanentlli styationed on PAF bases) putting new source coads in them after every sortie and yes no pakistani expert is allowed to do that ... but im sure you wont understand what i mean 

as for resolving the money issue well my friend thats the crux of the matter first do it then dream of flying su-35 russia, USA, Britain, germany or france all of them now work onli on one principal and thats hard cash... there is nothing for free and you better know what are the costs pakistan had paid and still paying for the yamrican wepons


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## My-Analogous

Neuro said:


> Ruskies junk suddenly become wonderful war machine for Pakistan .



Because now we realize that in the hand of Indian every thing become Junk and here are some example







Air Force's new C-130J aircraft crashes near Gwalior, five killed






IAF fighter jet crashes in Rajasthan; no casualties reported





Air Force's Sukhoi-30 Fighter Jet Crashes Near Pune, Pilots Safe






Air Force Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Cost 80 Crore, Crashes in Gujarat

AND many many more(if you want)



GURU DUTT said:


> great for you with F-16 MLU but what if i told you your F-16s cant fly without american experts(permanentlli styationed on PAF bases) putting new source coads in them after every sortie and yes no pakistani expert is allowed to do that ... but im sure you wont understand what i mean
> 
> as for resolving the money issue well my friend thats the crux of the matter first do it then dream of flying su-35 russia, USA, Britain, germany or france all of them now work onli on one principal and thats hard cash... there is nothing for free and you better know what are the costs pakistan had paid and still paying for the yamrican wepons



Well its seems that you are misinformed, we didn't buy to showcase them



GURU DUTT said:


> great for you with F-16 MLU but what if i told you your F-16s cant fly without american experts(permanentlli styationed on PAF bases) putting new source coads in them after every sortie and yes no pakistani expert is allowed to do that ... but im sure you wont understand what i mean
> 
> as for resolving the money issue well my friend thats the crux of the matter first do it then dream of flying su-35 russia, USA, Britain, germany or france all of them now work onli on one principal and thats hard cash... there is nothing for free and you better know what are the costs pakistan had paid and still paying for the yamrican wepons



Do you have a hobby to change the topics?

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## GURU DUTT

knight11 said:


> FGFA which will be based on PAK FA prototype being developed by Russia and partially funded by India is still on designed phase and the designed is not still frozen. HAL will be prime contractor-cum manufacturer. Prototypes PAK FA is flying in Russian and testing and R&D is going on with the different Engine since the main prime engine haven't ready yet. Regarding F-35 Indian Navy is showing interest in F-35B for its future carriers and send enquiry for the same. No it was never offered to India officially in any Public domain but don't see any problem in its acquisition. There is a long list of the future customer including US, USN, UK, Australia, Turkey and Israel so India have to wait for the long time after the full scale production starts up.
> 
> Nothing is cooked up dreams you can get all the information from the newspapers


way the things are going im pretty sure IAF will buy at least 4 squads of FGFA and rest of PAKFA when it comes as for F-35 if EMALS & AAG are coming from USA make sure F-35C will be there to no question about it 



ghazaliy2k said:


> Because now we realize that in the hand of Indian every thing become Junk and here are some example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Force's new C-130J aircraft crashes near Gwalior, five killed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF fighter jet crashes in Rajasthan; no casualties reported
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Force's Sukhoi-30 Fighter Jet Crashes Near Pune, Pilots Safe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Force Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Cost 80 Crore, Crashes in Gujarat
> 
> AND many many more(if you want)
> 
> 
> 
> Well its seems that you are misinformed, we didn't buy to showcase them
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a hobby to change the topics?


saeen ji im not bluffing dont trust me ask any PAF personnel you know who is anywhere near those 18BLK52s of PAF and ask them what i just said im sure you ganna find it pretty revolutionarry .... cheers mate


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## Ultima Thule

Neuro said:


> Ruskies junk suddenly become wonderful war machine for Pakistan .


Which means your SU-30MKI and MIG-29 are also junk

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## GURU DUTT

pakistanipower said:


> Which means your SU-30MKI and MIG-29 are also junk


or is it a case of "sour grapes"


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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> way the things are going im pretty sure IAF will buy at least 4 squads of FGFA and rest of PAKFA when it comes as for F-35 if EMALS & AAG are coming from USA make sure F-35C will be there to no question about it
> 
> 
> saeen ji im not bluffing dont trust me ask any PAF personnel you know who is anywhere near those 18BLK52s of PAF and ask them what i just said im sure you ganna find it pretty revolutionarry .... cheers mate



So you mean to say Pakistan have only 18 F16?. By the way our relationship with US is very deep and they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that.



GURU DUTT said:


> or is it a case of "sour grapes"



Read post # 628 again


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## gau8av

The Russians have already clarified that no such sale is happening, time to lock this thread ?

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## araz

Spectre said:


> There is no scenario I can envision in which, any of the expensive war toys will be used in India - Pak conflict. There are multiple safeguards built in at multiple level in India- Pakistan relationship to prevent precisely the conditions which would necessitate their usage which would preclude a Nuclear War. Rest is all gravy for the masses.
> 
> If Pakistan is buying SU-35 with a non India specific role like bombing the crap out of Talibanis and other scum inside their borders then it's good, however I have limited understanding of how well these jets are suited for that role.
> 
> With respect to build-up on India side I have a sneaking suspicion that it is smoke and mirrors. Year after year high proportion of defense money is returned to Finance Ministry unspent. Deals drag on for years, projects are being perpetually extended. Whatever actual acquisition you see are not even Pakistan specific. Now it can all be due to immense and unprecedented in-competence and complete lack of interest in National Security or it can be a very clever dis-information war at the expense of poor French and likes to force Pakistan into an arms race.
> 
> Clearly Pakistan is not taking the bait as evidenced by it's similar lack of high profile acquisition for years. These SU-35 plans are in clear response to India's forward momentum towards Rafale Deal, when that stops any news of SU35 will stop too.
> 
> I think, not enough credit is given to the governments on both sides. That is just my contrarian view though.


Spectre.
On the contrary there is a very big opportunity of war coming up in the region.. It will be triggered by water and I would go out on a limb to say that it is entirely Pakistani stupidity and lack of development of storage facilities which will lead upto it.You can have all the safeguards in the world that you like but one little spark and with the lack of trust between the two countries will result in an exchange with disastrous outcome. This is precisely why it is imperative that the reasons for the mistrust are extinguished now and the stupidities of both neighbours interfering with each others internal matters should stop post haste.
You maybe right about the smoke and mirrors but the problem remains that this policy goes down the drain as soon as some money comes into the coffers of either state. The only reason why things have not gone out of hand is because pakistani economy is in such a dire state that it simply cannot afford to escalate its defence expenditure. As a matter of compromise we have started looking at internal development/ manufacturing/label changing of weapons systems to fulfil our needs . India on the other hand seems outwardly focused on the acquisition from outside.
The Rafale deal served its purpose in preventing access to EU for Pakistani imports. However, the Chinese factor is preventing the acquisition blockade which India wanted to strategically put around Pakistan. Russia is just trying to see whether it can kill 2 birds with one stone by either enticing India into placing an order or selling to pakistan and opening up the market there. The problem for india is that it has a genuine need to replace its Migs but cant find a suitable plane as Rafale, EFT and Gripen NG would all be expensive to acquire and maintain.


SrNair said:


> Lol :lol :
> Use some common sense dude.
> You can undrdtand basic business .
> Russians need our money to maintain that Pak Fa.
> We also have our own parallel program like AMCA .
> They simply cant ignore a 150 billion $ market.
> 
> We have a lots of other option for buying weapons .But for Russia , thry cant just replace Indias place with sme other nation.


Buyers never dictate to the seller who they sell to. Contrary to your assumptions I think it is India which will find severing its umbilical cord with mother Russia impossible whether Mother Russia suuckles another baby or not. There is far too much weaponry to be replaced if you decided to walk away.
For whatever it is worth I still think the SU35 sale talk to PAF is ungrounded in fact. I would need to see news of a signed contract before I believe this one. It is simple. It is too much too quickly and things dont work like this in the aviation industry except when you are arabs( and even for arabs it is highly debatable). You dont just go and say"Yallah I will have 3 dozens of this and 2 dozens of that and can you send 45 women for my King's and my harem while you are at it Habeebi"

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## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


> So you mean to say Pakistan have only 18 F16?. By the way our relationship with US is very deep and they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that.
> 
> 
> 
> Read post # 628 again


pakistan has onli 18 proper Blk52 F-16s rest(42) all are second or third hand F-16s which dont have either the engine or radar or avionicks to support the clain that they are Blk52s at best they can be termed Blk40 but even your Blk-52s are seaverlli "sanctioned/bugged" and worse thing is we indians are practising on them as singaporean F-16Blk52s are sationed permanentlli in india (and they are not bugged nor they need US experts to put new source codes after every sortie)

as for russian hardware bieng junk well thats what pakistanies always made fun of it till china decided to buy a few su-35s themselfs and then came roumours as pakistan was interested but then ... i know im always wrong


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## My-Analogous

gau8av said:


> The Russians have already clarified that no such sale is happening, time to lock this thread ?



yeah similar one like RD93 and MI35. We know how you feel but can't help you out


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## batmannow

knight11 said:


> FGFA which will be based on PAK FA prototype being developed by Russia and partially funded by India is still on designed phase and the designed is not still frozen. HAL will be prime contractor-cum manufacturer. Prototypes PAK FA is flying in Russian and testing and R&D is going on with the different Engine since the main prime engine haven't ready yet. Regarding F-35 Indian Navy is showing interest in F-35B for its future carriers and send enquiry for the same. No it was never offered to India officially in any Public domain but don't see any problem in its acquisition. There is a long list of the future customer including US, USN, UK, Australia, Turkey and Israel so India have to wait for the long time after the full scale production starts up.
> 
> Nothing is cooked up dreams you can get all the information from the newspapers


Here we go ,again nothing concrete ?
How long the proto types being done in Russia PAK FA ?
more then 10 years or so ?
What you think , within coming one year Pakistan having at least a sqd of SU-35 & India still checking more proto types in Russia ?
For the next 10 years more ?
You only think about the Indian navys interests but you forgot , that US may not be interested in that ?
When USA would complete its customers , for the F-35, then it will be like 2040 ?
Will you b waiting then ?


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## araz

GURU DUTT said:


> pakistan has onli 18 proper Blk52 F-16s rest(42) all are second or third hand F-16s which dont have either the engine or radar or avionicks to support the clain that they are Blk52s at best they can be termed Blk40 but even your Blk-52s are seaverlli "sanctioned/bugged" and worse thing is we indians are practising on them as singaporean F-16Blk52s are sationed permanentlli in india (and they are not bugged nor they need US experts to put new source codes after every sortie)
> 
> as for russian hardware bieng junk well thats what pakistanies always made fun of it till china decided to buy a few su-35s themselfs and then came roumours as pakistan was interested but then ... i know im always wrong


Prove it!!! You mean to say that the MLUed 16s still retain their old avionics and radar suite? ? Man you are a senior poster for heavens sake. Prove your point but dont resort to outright lying or downright idiocy to prove your points. We are willing to accept IAFs numerical and material superiority but it is not so verwhelming that PAF will buckle under and lie down to let IAF do whatever it wants. 
Secondly rest assured that the safeguards in place for the 52s are the same for every foreign vendor so your assumptions about the Singaporean AFs fighters is incorrect.
A


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Here we go ,again nothing concrete ?
> How long the proto types being done in Russia PAK FA ?
> more then 10 years or so ?
> What you think , within coming one year Pakistan having at least a sqd of SU-35 & India still checking more proto types in Russia ?
> For the next 10 years more ?
> You only think about the Indian navys interests but you forgot , that US may not be interested in that ?
> When USA would complete its customers , for the F-35, then it will be like 2040 ?
> Will you b waiting then ?


1.russian FGFA prototypes are already in last leg of fininshing there flight testings and sonn wepons intigration phase will commence and the first FGFA are sheduled to be in RSAF by 2018 while 2020 for IAF 

2.no russian su-35s are coming for PAF as PAF is in no position to buy them off the shelf let alone pay for there maintainence and spares 

as for F-35 well USA has already made a formal offer to sell F-35 to india and is already in talks for that along with o wants them for its IAC-2 EMALS, AAG and E2D/E for indian navy and indian navy also

have some patience 



araz said:


> Prove it!!! You mean to say that the MLUed 16s still retain their old avionics and radar suite? ? Man you are a senior poster for heavens sake. Prove your point but dont resort to outright lying or downright idiocy to prove your points. We are willing to accept IAFs numerical and material superiority but it is not so verwhelming that PAF will buckle under and lie down to let IAF do whatever it wants.
> Secondly rest assured that the safeguards in place for the 52s are the same for every foreign vendor so your assumptions about the Singaporean AFs fighters is incorrect.
> A


OK TT sir whatever you say is right im wrong happy now .... cheers mate

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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> pakistan has onli 18 proper Blk52 F-16s rest(42) all are second or third hand F-16s which dont have either the engine or radar or avionicks to support the clain that they are Blk52s at best they can be termed Blk40 but even your Blk-52s are seaverlli "sanctioned/bugged" and worse thing is we indians are practising on them as singaporean F-16Blk52s are sationed permanentlli in india (and they are not bugged nor they need US experts to put new source codes after every sortie)
> 
> as for russian hardware bieng junk well thats what pakistanies always made fun of it till china decided to buy a few su-35s themselfs and then came roumours as pakistan was interested but then ... i know im always wrong



What's funny is that only 2-3 days ago, we were having a discussion about the IAF potentially getting used Mirage 2000's from UAE-- you were all up and going about how it was economical etc etc. and I brought the same point to your attention that Indians use the same "ohh you have used F-16's etc." all the time -- yet somehow the same standard never applies to Indian procurement even if its potentially for second hand equipment ... You can refresh your memory if you like though ..and thanks for proving my point ...

Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ? | Page 17

Secondly, do read a little in to what MLU upgrades that the falcons of ours got ... before you go out on how they are just "barely block 40" aircrafts ...

PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects

Lastly, your not the only one with a friend that fields similar equipment to your enemy that you can use to practice against ....

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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> * i know im always wrong*







Add: US are so stupid that they stated that our F16 is MLU (50/52 standards) and they should asked you before making any comments

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> 1.russian FGFA prototypes are already in last leg of fininshing there flight testings and sonn wepons intigration phase will commence and the first FGFA are sheduled to be in RSAF by 2018 while 2020 for IAF
> 
> 2.no russian su-35s are coming for PAF as PAF is in no position to buy them off the shelf let alone pay for there maintainence and spares
> 
> as for F-35 well USA has already made a formal offer to sell F-35 to india and is already in talks for that along with o wants them for its IAC-2 EMALS, AAG and E2D/E for indian navy and indian navy also
> 
> have some patience
> 
> 
> OK TT sir whatever you say is right im wrong happy now .... cheers mate


Usa offering F-35 , WHEN post a link pls & off course a USA link ?
How soon you will be inducting the PAK FA in Indian air force , pls give a official statement about it ?


----------



## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> or is it a case of "sour grapes"


I know that SU-30 and MIG-29 are in the world best fighter, simply I was answering to Neoru post


----------



## GURU DUTT

ghazaliy2k said:


>


but you forgot that it was hindoos who floated and still beleve in karma (sansrit=your deeds) and bieng evil short dark yaindoos we know what we are doing so dont worry stay tuned as it was not india that was the agressor ... but lets not go there or we will go of topic .... thread is about Su-35 and fact is pakistan is gettiong none ... but no harm in dreaming 



pakistanipower said:


> I know that SU-30 and MIG-29 are in the world best fighter, simply I was answering to Neoru post


cant say about anyone else but as per current statndards both indian versions of Mig29s/fulcrums and MKI/flankers are considerred to be the best and most leathel of there kind owtside russia


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## war&peace

I can see and smell an immense thick mushroom cloud of smoke across our Eastern borders.


----------



## Blue Marlin

*Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*

ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.

The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.

However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.

Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."

"The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.

Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.

Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.

"To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.

Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.

However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.

The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."

Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.

"This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.

He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."

Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."

However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.

"This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.

Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.

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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> but you forgot that it was hindoos who floated and still beleve in karma (sansrit=your deeds) and bieng evil short dark yaindoos we know what we are doing so dont worry stay tuned as it was not india that was the agressor ... *but lets not go there or we will go of topic* .... thread is about Su-35 and fact is pakistan is gettiong none ... but no harm in dreaming
> 
> 
> cant say about anyone else but as per current statndards both indian versions of Mig29s/fulcrums and MKI/flankers are considerred to be the best and most leathel of there kind owtside russia



I post it in your language of understanding because you don't have telent to understand others. And about the word Karma is from Sanskrit and i don't think Indian owns it.

In many threads i remind you to stick with the topics but your old habit of trolling stopping you. Any way lets back to topic

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## batmannow

blue marlin said:


> *Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.
> 
> The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.
> 
> However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.
> 
> Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.
> 
> Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."
> 
> "The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.
> 
> Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.
> 
> Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.
> 
> "To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.
> 
> Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.
> 
> However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.
> 
> The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."
> 
> Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.
> 
> "This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.
> 
> He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.
> 
> "All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."
> 
> Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.
> 
> Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."
> 
> However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.
> 
> "This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.
> 
> Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.


Fake & feared anaalyists ?lolzz


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## Spectre

araz said:


> Spectre.
> On the contrary there is a very big opportunity of war coming up in the region.. It will be triggered by water and I would go out on a limb to say that it is entirely Pakistani stupidity and lack of development of storage facilities which will lead upto it.You can have all the safeguards in the world that you like but one little spark and with the lack of trust between the two countries will result in an exchange with disastrous outcome. This is precisely why it is imperative that the reasons for the mistrust are extinguished now and the stupidities of both neighbours interfering with each others internal matters should stop post haste.
> You maybe right about the smoke and mirrors but the problem remains that this policy goes down the drain as soon as some money comes into the coffers of either state. The only reason why things have not gone out of hand is because pakistani economy is in such a dire state that it simply cannot afford to escalate its defence expenditure. As a matter of compromise we have started looking at internal development/ manufacturing/label changing of weapons systems to fulfil our needs . India on the other hand seems outwardly focused on the acquisition from outside.
> The Rafale deal served its purpose in preventing access to EU for Pakistani imports. However, the Chinese factor is preventing the acquisition blockade which India wanted to strategically put around Pakistan. Russia is just trying to see whether it can kill 2 birds with one stone by either enticing India into placing an order or selling to pakistan and opening up the market there. The problem for india is that it has a genuine need to replace its Migs but cant find a suitable plane as Rafale, EFT and Gripen NG would all be expensive to acquire and maintain.



Yeah I admit Water is a big pacific sized hole in my argument, I am worried about the same but console myself with the fact that for Water to become condition for War would still require 3/4 decades of time and I would be happily dead.

What India is to Pakistan is China is to India in the upcoming water wars. I expect some sort of massive treaty or organization to take shape post 2020 to reassure downstream nations, AFAIK there is something already in place but it's enforceablity is a concern.

Anyway all stakeholders will have to sit on the table and work out the details if they don't want the shit to hit the fan. And I guess leaders would probably do that. We humans are inherently lazy, just need a kick on the butt to get get moving.

Regarding trust Issues - yeah the deficit over there is problamatic but again I don't know how much is for show and how much of that trust deficit is real. I expected 26/11 to get some reaction from Indians but that didn't happen - reason loads of forces working behind the scenes to ensure trust deficit does not become a Spark that blows the whole Keg of Nuclear Explosives. You might be right though - current govt is bit reactionary - ride it out yeah?

Regarding blocking of exports and woes facing IAF and PAF - Meh! These is just how the game is played. Indians numerical requirement is over-blown. 40+ squadrons aren't going to help us neither can we afford so many modern jets, if we are fighting against full strength China and Pakistan simultaneously might as well wave the white flag now or push the N - Button because no way in hell we are gonna come up one top without Uncle Sam and Ivan behind us. so 20/30/40/50 I believe are just arbitrary numbers intended to serve as deterrent.

If a poser like me could come up with above then I am sure Chinese and Pakistanis have arrived at a similar conclusion, deterrent works if the other sides believes it will work.

So a better job would be to downsize and modernize our Air Force which is exactly what is being done, LCA is meant for replacement to Migs and if it works I would break a coconut or two at my local temple if it doesn't no biggie.

For Pakistan the only concern should be Talibs and likes unless it wants to take a another pass at Kashmir, India is thoroughly shackled by Nuclear deterrent.

P.S. Again I would like to re-emphasize Water is the only issue in which throws all my arguments into bin if we don't arrive at a mutually beneficial or atleast satisfactory solution for down stream countries.

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## knight11

ghazaliy2k said:


> So you mean to say Pakistan have only 18 F16?. By the way our relationship with US is very deep and they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that.
> 
> 
> 
> Read post # 628 again



Care to explain the Bold part

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## My-Analogous

knight11 said:


> Care to explain the Bold part



Google it


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## knight11

ghazaliy2k said:


> Google it


google what ??

"they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that"

Do you understand English

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## My-Analogous

knight11 said:


> google what ??
> 
> "they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that"
> 
> Do you understand English



Do you? 

They always restricted us in case of PAF and we always use our assets as we like to use. (I didn't know that Indian IQ is that much low to understand this history of PAF)


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## knight11

ghazaliy2k said:


> Do you?
> 
> They always restricted us in case of PAF and we always use our assets as we like to use. (I didn't know that Indian IQ is that much low to understand this history of PAF)



Read the line "they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that" Does it make any sense

"They always restricted us in case of PAF" Restrict us in case of PAF what does it means

"we always use our assets as we like to use." Now which assets ?? as we like to use OR whatever way we would like to use

IQ will come after but let me first let me understand you and your mind


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## Kakaspai

knight11 said:


> Read the line "they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that" Does it make any sense
> 
> "They always restricted us in case of PAF" Restrict us in case of PAF what does it means
> 
> "we always use our assets as we like to use." Now which assets ?? as we like to use OR whatever way we would like to use
> 
> IQ will come after but let me first let me understand you and your mind


He is trying to say that usofa imposed sanctions on us but paf came back strongly with the jf 17 project

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## knight11

Kakaspai said:


> He is trying to say that usofa imposed sanctions on us but paf came back strongly with the jf 17 project


Oh now I see. Thanx for the info.


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## abdulbarijan

knight11 said:


> google what ??
> 
> "they always impose sanction on us and we always broke that"
> 
> *Do you understand English*



Thats quite ironic, coming from a person who said the following just yesterday ... 



knight11 said:


> AND SINCE YOU CLAIMS TO HAVE A MANAGEMENT BACKGROUND YOU WILL APPRECIATE THAT IT WON'T BE ECONOMICAL FISSIABLE TO HAVE AN ASSETS WHICH I POINTED OUT AS INVENTORY AAE. I AM NOT FROM MANAGEMENT* BACKGROUND RATHER TECHNICAL BUT DO KNOW HOW EVERYONE HAVE TO DO ITS JOB AND FOLLOW HIS WORK FOLLOWING THE PROCEDURE AND REST ASSURE I AM NOT SO DUMP WHO COPY/PASTING FROM HERE AND THERE WHAT YOU ARE THINKING OF ?*

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## My-Analogous

These people thinks that there IQ is superior to everyone including Aliens and always speaks shits



knight11 said:


> Oh now I see. Thanx for the info.



respect sr members


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## My-Analogous

Neuro said:


> I mentioned about Pakistan perspective  . India is happy with Russians products everybody knows it .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its unimaginable if is it in the hands failed state/ upcoming pariah state like Pakistan  .



Stop trolling and start talking like a gentleman and post your comments with proof. Grown up

@waz @Horus @WebMaster 

Please deal with him with proper protocol


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## Last Samuri

Pakistanis AND Indians LETS calm down.

LETS SEE WHAT UNFOLDS with the SU35 rumours.

I am pleasantly surprised at HOW MUCH EXCITMENT the Pakistanis have over a Flanker purchase

For decade we watch you Pakistanis tell us HOW CRAP THE RUSSIAN fighters are

Very interesting AND TELLING I think,

_The Flankers will cost alot more than what you guys have paid for a fighter in your history 
They will cost you twice the amount to service and fly of any current PAF fighter_.

But if by some miracle this actually happens YOU are acquiring a beast of a fighter and the Indians know as they swear by their MKI

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## Zephyrus

blue marlin said:


> *Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*
> 
> Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.


Do I need to remind you about the A5? the F6?


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## frashid30@hotmail.com

Hello guys this story is dead. I've just spoken to a few people in the circles of power. The story is nonsense. It's amazing how everyone on here has gotten carried away with it. PAF has asked for a possible series of joint exercises involving Russian Su35s as part of the burgeoning relationship masterminded by China. PAF GUYS IS WORKING WITH CHINA TO HAVE A STEALTH ASSET DELIVERED.


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## Myth_buster_1

I believe if SU-35 deal is indeed going on then China is def behind financing of this deal... China wants to protect its assets from air threats so they want to make shore PAF is better equipped as F-16 is out of question and JF-17 is not enough...

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## ejaz007

*Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*

ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.

The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.

However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.

Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."

"The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.

Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.

Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.

"To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.

Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.

However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.

The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."

Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.

"This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.

He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."

Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."

However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.

"This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.

Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.

Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations


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## deckingraj

Beethoven said:


> Agree with you....you can't say its a game changer but it does give an edge....if you ignore the RCS part the radar will definitely play a role in the selection of an aircraft.....how do you compare the BARS PESA radar on board the Su-35 with an AESA radar that has 1200 modules?????


no question about the radar...i just wanted to point the RCS thing...now if you are a raptor then its a different ball game otherwise this talk of RCS can come handly only if there are some obvious gaps in the radar cover n/w that we both are putting against each other...



Windjammer said:


> As i said, we may get it or we may not and from what i gather is that the media may have got it's Apples and Oranges mixed.
> In any case, regardless of the outcome, as Russia did say, *if India can buy from America, what can stop Russia from selling to any potential buyer.*.... specially after the MRCCA fiasco, would Russia or for that matter any other country place all eggs vin one basket.


The answer lies in the bold part itself. What stops Russia to sell anything(worth) to our potential adversary is the risk of loosing further share in a lucrative Indian defense markets. To be honest this is the worst time to loose India as a customer because with growing economy our defense needs are growing exponentially....Our defense industry is no where capable of matching this burgeoning requirements and there is a reason we are the worlds biggest importer of defense weaponry(not something we want to stick to though). Pakistan cannot match Indian market and nor does can pay hard cash all the time(may seek easy loans etc)....so if we look at purely from economic perspective(and ignore India-russia decades old relationship) this deal doesn't make any sense. Unless and until Russia takes India into confidence i don't see this going anywhere but disappointment for Pakistani friends....


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## araz

abdulbarijan said:


> Thats quite ironic, coming from a person who said the following just yesterday ...


If I had to have a guess his younger sibling wrote that onerrather than him. OR that was him in which case he is copy pasting from some source. But then what does an old man like me know!!!!!!

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## aliyusuf

ejaz007 said:


> *Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*
> ...
> 
> Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.
> ...
> Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations



F-6 were twin engined and were operated for more than 3 decades by the PAF. The A-5, an F-6 derivative, was also twin engined and served for more than 2 decades.

How can Air Cmdr.® Kaiser Tufail make such a statement? One could have accepted him saying that the PAF never operated a heavy fighter or a twin-engined heavy fighter. But this is not what is presented in the article.

Puts a question mark on the veracity of the content as presented by Usman Ansari.


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## salman-1

Russians might agree to sell Su-35 as they are also cash strapped. Question is not would they sell or not. They are willing to sale. Question is how and on what terms they would sale, as PAF would be asking for transfer of technology for those parts which are consumed more for servicing and keeping that giant operational at all time. PAF won't keep Su's like India does, i.e 50% fleet ground all the time. Only if Russia agrees to give help for reducing costs to fly it only then PAF would sit in it. Can't afford any kind of risk like in the case of F-16. These elephants whatever type need constant mother feed who ever adopts them. My personal guess is PAF would go for 36-40 with contracts of overhauling and spare parts manufacturing whatever type they go for.


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## Sulman Badshah

from radio pakistan 


Russian Deputy FM says his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.





Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has said that his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.

He told Russian News Agency that both the countries had previously agreed upon delivery of these helicopters and modalities for their delivey are being finalized.

The Russian Minister termed Pakistan as close partner of his country hoping that cooperation between the countries will 
further grow various fields as well including energy
.






The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth generation jets.


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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> but you forgot that it was hindoos who floated and still beleve in karma (sansrit=your deeds) and bieng evil short dark yaindoos we know what we are doing so dont worry stay tuned as it was not india that was the agressor ... but lets not go there or we will go of topic .... thread is about Su-35 and fact is pakistan is gettiong none ... but no harm in dreaming
> 
> 
> cant say about anyone else but as per current statndards both indian versions of Mig29s/fulcrums and MKI/flankers are considerred to be the best and most leathel of there kind owtside russia [/QUOTE/]
> yes i admit that su-30MKI and MIG-29K are one of the most advance fighter in asia

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## Blue Marlin

GURU DUTT said:


> but you forgot that it was hindoos who floated and still beleve in karma (sansrit=your deeds) and bieng evil short dark yaindoos we know what we are doing so dont worry stay tuned as it was not india that was the agressor ... but lets not go there or we will go of topic .... thread is about Su-35 and fact is pakistan is gettiong none ... but no harm in dreaming
> 
> 
> cant say about anyone else but as per current statndards both indian versions of Mig29s/fulcrums and MKI/flankers are considerred to be the best and most leathel of there kind owtside russia


lets not bring religion in to the thread. thats just asking for a troll like response

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## Eagle Claw

GURU DUTT said:


> 1.russian FGFA prototypes are already in last leg of fininshing there flight testings and sonn wepons intigration phase will commence and the first FGFA are sheduled to be in RSAF by 2018 while 2020 for IAF
> 
> 2.*no russian su-35s are coming for PAF as PAF is in no position to buy them off the shelf let alone pay for there maintainence and spares *
> 
> as for F-35 well USA has already made a formal offer to sell F-35 to india and is already in talks for that along with o wants them for its IAC-2 EMALS, AAG and E2D/E for indian navy and indian navy also
> 
> have some patience
> 
> 
> OK TT sir whatever you say is right im wrong happy now .... cheers mate



So you being an Indian Know about Pakistan better than Pakistanis  ??
LOL !!
And Mind your Own Business regarding how we will manage 35 or Purchase 35.
Instead you should be doing *Ram Ram* after hearing this terrible news about Su-35s Sale to Pakistan.


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## Blue Marlin

hi all,

i just spoke to an analyst about this news and i was told that if such development are true then the su-35 wont be for the airforce but for the air naval arm. the su35 has a lot of range so it can stay and loiter in the skies for long periods of time.


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## PakShaheen79

I think one point Indian friends here must understand that if Russia wants hard cash (which is True BTW), forces opposing Russia (US and Europe) would like to stop that. This can be done in number of ways. By providing better mil tech to India than the Russia (and I think it is already happening. P-8I, C-17, Apache etc.). This way they will succeed in preventing Delhi to sign any further larger defense deal with Moscow. On the other hand, if Russia sells anything to Pakistan the order will be much smaller and would give little revenue of Russia. Plus the US can even put pressure on Pakistan not to buy Russian stuff. The US may offer PAF some more F-16s to prevent any such deal.But Pakistan, on the other hand, has its own requirements in which shifting balance of maritime aviation in Arabian Sea is an emerging challenge due to inclusion of aircraft carriers in Indian Navy. So, inevitably for Pakistan it would be prudent to go for a twin engine fighter with longer range for this specific need (PAF or PN; who would use them is immaterial at this point). So impetus for both Pakistan and Russia to enhance cooperation is there. Pakistan cannot deter challenge posed by Indian carriers by inducting its own carrier so naturally second best choice is to increase the number of options to neutralize this threat. Su-35 or any other navalized flanker would fit into this role. So, I would not say that SU-35 just has no chance in PAF instead to me the decision will be based on enemy's capabilities and challenge posed and by looking at the current and future challenges, SU-35 is certainly among the best choices Pakistan has at the moment along with Chinese option. Indian factor would not matter much in this regard.


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## VelocuR

@Mark Sien 

Thought you might be interested in this new perspective.

India, Russia opt for velvet divorce

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## mingle

salman-1 said:


> Russians might agree to sell Su-35 as they are also cash strapped. Question is not would they sell or not. They are willing to sale. Question is how and on what terms they would sale, as PAF would be asking for transfer of technology for those parts which are consumed more for servicing and keeping that giant operational at all time. PAF won't keep Su's like India does, i.e 50% fleet ground all the time. Only if Russia agrees to give help for reducing costs to fly it only then PAF would sit in it. Can't afford any kind of risk like in the case of F-16. These elephants whatever type need constant mother feed who ever adopts them. My personal guess is PAF would go for 36-40 with contracts of overhauling and spare parts manufacturing whatever type they go for.


For navel air Arm these numbers r more than enough plus it will give PAF freedom to pay more attention on IAF


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## Muhammad Omar

ejaz007 said:


> *Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations*
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.
> 
> The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.
> 
> However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.
> 
> Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.
> 
> Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."
> 
> "The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.
> 
> Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.
> 
> Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.
> 
> "To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.
> 
> Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.
> 
> However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.
> 
> The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."
> 
> Pakistan has never operated a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.
> 
> "This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.
> 
> He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.
> 
> "All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."
> 
> Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.
> 
> Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."
> 
> However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.
> 
> "This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.
> 
> Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.
> 
> Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations



A Pakistan Pilot didn't even know that PAF operated twin Engine aircraft.... A5 single engine pe urate thy kya 

Or Kya yeh Constitution me lika hai ya Quaid E Azam k 14 points me k Pakistan twin engine jet ni le skta???

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## gau8av

why don't Pakistan just go for the J-11s ?


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## somebozo

Pakistan has been evaluating the SU-27 for a long time and SU-35 is just an evolution of the same...there is badge in PAF for completing 1000 hours in SU-27 borrowed from a friendly air-force..there is a pool of Pakistani pilots trained to fly the SU-27...Pakistan, Chia and Russia are not faced with the new realm geo-economic importance and SU27/35 is pretty much a standard of all SCO countries. So Pakistan will not be left behind.

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## Tameem

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think one point Indian friends here must understand that if Russia wants hard cash (which is True BTW), forces opposing Russia (US and Europe) would like to stop that. This can be done in number of ways. By providing better mil tech to India than the Russia (and I think it is already happening. P-8I, C-17, Apache etc.). This way they will succeed in preventing Delhi to sign any further larger defense deal with Moscow. On the other hand, if Russia sells anything to Pakistan the order will be much smaller and would give little revenue of Russia. Plus the US can even put pressure on Pakistan not to buy Russian stuff. The US may offer PAF some more F-16s to prevent any such deal.But Pakistan, on the other hand, has its own requirements in which shifting balance of maritime aviation in Arabian Sea is an emerging challenge due to inclusion of aircraft carriers in Indian Navy. So, inevitably for Pakistan it would be prudent to go for a twin engine fighter with longer range for this specific need (PAF or PN; who would use them is immaterial at this point). So impetus for both Pakistan and Russia to enhance cooperation is there. Pakistan cannot deter challenge posed by Indian carriers by inducting its own carrier so naturally second best choice is to increase the number of options to neutralize this threat. Su-35 or any other navalized flanker would fit into this role. So, I would not say that SU-35 just has no chance in PAF instead to me the decision will be based on enemy's capabilities and challenge posed and by looking at the current and future challenges, SU-35 is certainly among the best choices Pakistan has at the moment along with Chinese option. Indian factor would not matter much in this regard.



Why not me? let me speculate as well;

I thinks, PAF wants to broke the news of their interest in SU35 only after India's Rafael deal signs up at any point of time this year in order to neutralize the psychological pressure on them post that period and absolutely not before it for sure.

The number of units in negotiation are not more than one Squadron for sure even less of it, which enable Russia to soothen the probable strong objection of India's by stating that this sale is not a strategic outbalancing the equilibrium in SAsia, only a defensive in nature.


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## Tameem

gau8av said:


> why don't Pakistan just go for the J-11s ?



Bcz more than the Modern Aircraft we actually want a split between India & Russia

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## Stalwart

I dont think this thread should remain open. The substance of this thread is going off topic more than often.


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## gau8av

Tameem said:


> Bcz more than the Modern Aircraft we actually want a split between India & Russia


bada zabardast game chal raha hai, India's endgame is self sufficiency in defence, for which they have 100s of billions of dollars to spend, and both the US and Russia want a slice of that.


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## SHAMK9

Last Samuri said:


> Pakistanis AND Indians LETS calm down.
> 
> LETS SEE WHAT UNFOLDS with the SU35 rumours.
> 
> I am pleasantly surprised at HOW MUCH EXCITMENT the Pakistanis have over a Flanker purchase
> 
> For decade we watch you Pakistanis tell us HOW CRAP THE RUSSIAN fighters are
> 
> Very interesting AND TELLING I think,
> 
> _The Flankers will cost alot more than what you guys have paid for a fighter in your history
> They will cost you twice the amount to service and fly of any current PAF fighter_.
> 
> But if by some miracle this actually happens YOU are acquiring a beast of a fighter and the Indians know as they swear by their MKI


You are so desperate in this this thread, its unreal


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## Khanivore

gau8av said:


> why don't Pakistan just go for the J-11s ?


Russia's Su-35 is vastly more sophisticated version than J-11. You know that indeed.


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## gau8av

Khanivore said:


> Russia's Su-35 is vastly more sophisticated version than J-11. You know that indeed.


yup, and China will only get the stripped down export variant, if/when they do .. that news has been flying around forever.

@Chinese-Dragon got an update on it ?


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## Khanivore

gau8av said:


> yup, and China will only get the stripped down export variant, if/when they do .. that news has been flying around forever.


...your question was, "why don't Pakistan just go for the J-11s ?"

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## SQ8

Khanivore said:


> Russia's Su-35 is vastly more sophisticated version than J-11. You know that indeed.


As long as the equation involves Pakistan or China, you have better chances to get a pig to fly like an eagle rather than getting an Indian to admit that something positive might happen that would be better than what they have.

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## batmannow

gau8av said:


> bada zabardast game chal raha hai, India's endgame is self sufficiency in defence, for which they have 100s of billions of dollars to spend, and both the US and Russia want a slice of that.


Sure that's why Russia is selling its hardcore SU 35 yo Pakistan ?
& America ? Obama was crying to have an appointment with moodi jee ?lolzz


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## Zaneesh852

gau8av said:


> why don't Pakistan just go for the J-11s ?


J11/SU35 this is all a bluff. Like PAF did in 1990s to force France to reduce Mirage 2K's price tag. PAF will end up with more F16s, J10s and JF17s.


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## gau8av

batmannow said:


> that's why Russia is selling its hardcore SU 35 yo Pakistan ?


hello, they're not.



Zaneesh852 said:


> J11/SU35 this is all a bluff. Like PAF did in 1990s to force France to reduce Mirage 2K's price tag. PAF will end up with more F16s, J10s and JF17s.


yup, I think the US will okay and sanction more f-16s (a platform PAF are already very comfortable with).. could be a mix of second hand jets and some new ones, probably not to block 60 standard though.

the US are not going to let Pakistan go to the Russian camp just as much as the Russians are poking India with this SU 35 news.


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## Zaneesh852

gau8av said:


> yup, I think the US will okay and sanction more f-16s (a platform PAF are already very comfortable with).. could be a mix of second hand jets and some new ones, probably not to block 60 standard though.
> 
> the *US are not going to let Pakistan go to the Russian camp* just as much as the Russians are poking India with this SU 35 news.


Well is being in Russian camp really that important after the emergence of China? I don't think so.


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## gau8av

Zaneesh852 said:


> Well is being in Russian camp really that important after the emergence of China? I don't think so.


Chinese reversed engineered goods are neither battle proven, nor reliable


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## Akasa

batmannow said:


> I think you need to open your eyes properly , have a tooth brush & then look at the news its coming from deputy FM of Russia not of somalia ?



It is *claimed* to be coming from the deputy FM, which raises all the more suspicion since it was also a "government source" that denied the existence of such a deal. Until we see actual jets being delivered or have official statements made by both countries (i.e. Sukhoi company itself or the Chinese MoD), this hackneyed "purchase" is about as credible as UFOs in Area 51.



Khanivore said:


> Russia's Su-35 is vastly more sophisticated version than J-11. You know that indeed.



Depending on the variant. The latest J-11D shares numerous upgrade schemes with the Su-35, and in some cases excells the latter in certain aspects of its upgrade (e.g. avionics).

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## gau8av

SinoSoldier said:


> If they haven't been proven in battle, then how do you know that they aren't reliable?


ha, good 1 

but the "battle proven" tag is still a big deal for any weapon system in the market

the French Rafale, for example, got a huge leg up after they destroyed Libya


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## Ultima Thule

gau8av said:


> Chinese reversed engineered goods are neither battle proven, nor reliable


The term battle proven is wrong, is your Su-30MKI is battle proven and yes Chinese reversed engineered goods but with own innovation



gau8av said:


> Chinese reversed engineered goods are neither battle proven, nor reliable


The term battle proven is wrong, is your Su-30MKI is battle proven and yes Chinese reversed engineered goods but with own innovation


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## gau8av

pakistanipower said:


> The term battle proven is wrong, is your Su-30MKI is battle proven and yes Chinese reversed engineered goods but with own innovation


do it then, koi ni rok sakta aapko 1000s of J-11s khredne se


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## Akasa

gau8av said:


> ha, good 1
> 
> but the "battle proven" tag is still a big deal for any weapon system in the market
> 
> the French Rafale, for example, got a huge leg up after they destroyed Libya



Not exactly; battle experience does not affect a platforms' performance any more than does an aggressive marketing campaign (which is exactly what this concept is, anyways). Operations in Libya and the like does not effectively validate a system's capabilities as the resistance propped up by the Libyans were disproportionate at best.

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## gau8av

SinoSoldier said:


> Not exactly; battle experience does not alter a platforms' performance any more than does an aggressive marketing campaign (which is exactly what this concept is, anyways). Operations in Libya and the like does not effectively validate a system's capabilities as the resistance propped up by the Libyans were disproportionate at best.


no, the "battle proven" tag does add quite a bit of value

China has a long way to go before it can effectively compete with Russian or US/EU stuff..


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## Ultima Thule

gau8av said:


> do it then, koi ni rok sakta aapko 1000s of J-11s khredne se


What talking about sir, its not India or China, it your logic sir, why you thinks that Chinese products are unreliable? Give me one valid reason


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## gau8av

pakistanipower said:


> What talking about sir, its not India or China, it your logic sir, why you thinks that Chinese products are unreliable? Give me one valid reason


no, I don't think "Chinese products are unreliable" at all

literally every component in my computer, CPU/GPU to mouse is made in China

but the "battle proven" tag still commands a premium in the international arms market.


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## Muhammad Omar

gau8av said:


> no, I don't think "Chinese products are unreliable" at all
> 
> literally every component in my computer, CPU/GPU to mouse is made in China
> 
> but the "battle proven" tag still commands a premium in the international arms market.



Pakistan test the equipment before buying it... Like we are testing WZ-10 Like we are testing Oplot T-84 like we tested MBT 3000 like we going to test T-99 so no country is fool enough that keep buying military equipment before trials or tests


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## Quwa

VelocuR said:


> @Mark Sien
> 
> Thought you might be interested in this new perspective.
> 
> India, Russia opt for velvet divorce


It's a very good article. Spot on.


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## Zaneesh852

gau8av said:


> Chinese reversed engineered goods are neither battle proven, nor reliable


Nothing is battle proven until put into the battle. Is Sukhoi series battle proven? No its not. US aviation industry started by reverse engineering french planes. Russian Kicked off by reverse engineering british planes and then by copying US planes. So everybody has taken the same start, Chinese are not alone.

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## majid mehmood

according to one of my friend he told that paf might buy 1 sqd or 6-5 sqds


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## Muhammad Omar

majid mehmood said:


> according to one of my friend he told that paf might buy 1 sqd or 6-5 sqds



sorry what? 1 squad or 5 6 squad??


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## airmarshal

Going through this thread, I feel Indian ego is really hurt. In their effort to remedy this hurt, they say Russia needs India. 

Fair enough. Russia does need a big market like India but Indians dont realize they need Russia as much as Russia needs them. Russia has a product to sell and many willing buyers. India does not produce any weapons. So even if they are flush with cash, they will still need country like Russia to sell them weapons. So its both ways. 

India only has failed or part successful project to show like Arjun and Tejas. Yet their ego is so big, it certainly reminds me of that 56 inch cheat cr*p. May their defence minister wasnt talking about the 56 inch chest average Indians cant have but their ego definitely has a 56 inch chest.

How did we become Russia's 'closest partner' and in which domain? Thats a question that has been bothering me for a while!

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## Kompromat

Cherry on the top will be to refuse to IBRIS radar and instead opt for the AESA being developed for J-20

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## Blue Marlin

Horus said:


> Cherry on the top will be to refuse to IBRIS radar and instead opt for the AESA being developed for J-20


pakistan:hello russia can i have the badass su35.

russia:sure you can Pakistan.

pakistan:ok but i dont want the radar

russia:why?

pakistan:i want the aesa radar from the j20

russia:

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## dadeechi

Subcontinental said:


> People dont understand that USSR was our Ally, Russia is not.
> we mostly have Buyer Seller Relationship with Russia.
> 
> OnTopic:
> Good for Pakistan



Russia may not be USSR but (barring the Yelstin years) Putin's Russia was instrumental in the formation of Strategic Partnership with India and has institutionalized summit level meetings every year to represent that special relationship.

Russia supports India on UNSC, NSG & SCO memberships and still shares it's top technologies with India.

Indo-Russian relationship cannot be trivialized as a normal buyer-seller relationship.

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## Menace2Society

dadeechi said:


> Russia may not be USSR but (barring the Yelstin years) Putin's Russia was instrumental in the formation of Strategic Partnership with India and has institutionalized summit level meetings every year to represent that special relationship.
> 
> Russia supports India on UNSC, NSG & SCO memberships and still shares it's top technologies with India.
> 
> Indo-Russian relationship cannot be trivialized as a normal buyer-seller relationship.



More like passing intelligence on Russia to Uncle Sam.

Russia are not stupid, they know how much India have bent over for US to develop relationship.

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## HAIDER

*Pakistan, Russia in talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi35M*
Last Updated On * 10 September,2015* About 0 seconds from now





Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said that Pakistan is Russia's closest partner.
NIZHNY TAGIL (Web Desk) - Pakistan and Russia are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets, Sputnik News reported on Thursday.

Both countries were negotiating the deal for the past year, signalling a major thaw in relations between the two countries.

Talking to journalists, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said that Pakistan is Russia s closest partner and the two countries’ ties are evolving not only militarily but in other sectors, including energy.

"I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides," he added.

Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif visited Russia in June this year, after which a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M Hind E combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia.

Pakistan currently has a number of Mi-17 helicopters delivered by the US to assist in the fight against militancy.

The Mi-35 helicopter is an exceedingly modernised version of the Mi-24 combat helicopter with new onboard equipment and avionics. It also has a more powerful engine and a different tail rotor.

Pakistan and Russia signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year.



*Pakistan holds talks with Russia for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets *

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister terms Pakistan as close partner of his country

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has said that his country is engaged in talks with Pakistan for the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets.

He told Russian News Agency that both the countries had previously agreed upon delivery of these air crafts and modalities for their delivery are being finalized.
The Russian Minister termed Pakistan as close partner of his country hoping that cooperation between the countries will further grow various fields as well including energy.

The twin-engine Su-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat aircraft which also incorporates technology from fifth generation jets.

*Pakistan holds talks with Russia for delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets*

*------------------------------------------------------------*
Is it really a misquote or any juice in the news......


----------



## dadeechi

Menace2Society said:


> More like passing intelligence on Russia to Uncle Sam.
> 
> Russia are not stupid, they know how much India have bent over for US to develop relationship.



Well, you do not need a summit for that...Also, It could as well be the other way around....


----------



## dadeechi

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think one point Indian friends here must understand that if Russia wants hard cash (which is True BTW), forces opposing Russia (US and Europe) would like to stop that. This can be done in number of ways. By providing better mil tech to India than the Russia (and I think it is already happening. P-8I, C-17, Apache etc.). This way they will succeed in preventing Delhi to sign any further larger defense deal with Moscow. On the other hand, if Russia sells anything to Pakistan the order will be much smaller and would give little revenue of Russia. Plus the US can even put pressure on Pakistan not to buy Russian stuff. The US may offer PAF some more F-16s to prevent any such deal.But Pakistan, on the other hand, has its own requirements in which shifting balance of maritime aviation in Arabian Sea is an emerging challenge due to inclusion of aircraft carriers in Indian Navy. So, inevitably for Pakistan it would be prudent to go for a twin engine fighter with longer range for this specific need (PAF or PN; who would use them is immaterial at this point). So impetus for both Pakistan and Russia to enhance cooperation is there. Pakistan cannot deter challenge posed by Indian carriers by inducting its own carrier so naturally second best choice is to increase the number of options to neutralize this threat. Su-35 or any other navalized flanker would fit into this role. So, I would not say that SU-35 just has no chance in PAF instead to me the decision will be based on enemy's capabilities and challenge posed and by looking at the current and future challenges, SU-35 is certainly among the best choices Pakistan has at the moment along with Chinese option. Indian factor would not matter much in this regard.



What's interesting is India needs to quench the thirst of two powers (Russia & US) while Pakistan has three (China, US & Russia)


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## untitled

majid mehmood said:


> 1 sqd or 6-5 sqds



Why not 2,3 or 4 sqds ?

@Stealth 
PAF paint job on a Su-35 might lift spirits here


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## sathya

Pakistan have traditionally bought planes and announcement were made..

However here it is very much unlike Pakistan and more like India debating about Su 35 ..

It is sign it's just politics and if the deal is actually place, it's going take a long time.


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## Bossman

sathya said:


> Pakistan have traditionally bought planes and announcement were made..
> 
> However here it is very much unlike Pakistan and more like India debating about Su 35 ..
> 
> It is sign it's just politics and if the deal is actually place, it's going take a long time.



There are has been no comments on SU 35 from official Pakistani sources. Only comments from Russians and discussions on forums.


----------



## dadeechi

gau8av said:


> The Russians have already clarified that no such sale is happening, time to lock this thread ?



I have not seen any such clarification


Tameem said:


> Bcz more than the Modern Aircraft we actually want a split between India & Russia



Very good strategy indeed


----------



## dadeechi

Hindustani78 said:


> New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.
> 
> Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> "Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.
> 
> "This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.
> 
> "As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other," it added.
> 
> PTI



The question is who will determine which step is detrimental to the security and safety of India. Also, the statement did not mention that there would not be any sale of SU-35 to Pakistan.


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## Knight Rider

elitepilot09 said:


> NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.
> 
> Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.
> 
> Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.
> 
> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> EDIT AFTER INDIANS TROLLING THIS THREAD:


SU-35s + Pakistani Pilots =  Nightmare For India

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## Khanivore

Anyway, enough of the chitter-chatter whether Pakistan will get it or not, let's enjoy an Su-35 show (forgive me mods if videos not allowed):


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## elitepilot09

I just realized that if PAF opts for the SU-35, Pakistan will be the only country in the world to use the SU-35 in tandem with the F-16 blk52/MLU. 

What a *glorious *sight that would be.

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## somebozo

razgriz19 said:


> I seriously doubt that Russia would give us Su-35. They don't want to jeopardize relations with India.
> Our relationship hasn't reached that level of trust yet



They have a bigger project with india called PAK-FA which is a pure fifth generation fighter..SU35 is obsolete for both..Russia and India...



elitepilot09 said:


> I just realized that if PAF opts for the SU-35, Pakistan will be the only country in the world to use the SU-35 in tandem with the F-16 blk52/MLU.
> 
> What a *glorious *sight that would be.



SU35 is an international export failure..because nobody wants a 4++ generation fighter at a time when many are planing to arm with 5th generation fighter...Russia is simply trying to dump its junk when they have a bigger 5th generation program with India called PAK-FA


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## batmannow

somebozo said:


> They have a bigger project with india called PAK-FA which is a pure fifth generation fighter..SU35 is obsolete for both..Russia and India...
> 
> 
> 
> SU35 is an international export failure..because nobody wants a 4++ generation fighter at a time when many are planing to arm with 5th generation fighter...Russia is simply trying to dump its junk when they have a bigger 5th generation program with India called PAK-FA


PAK FA is become a joke in Russia these days ,cause Indians can't satisfy themselves over the period of 14 years ,with every visit they do to the project ,they demand new things to be included , & they are not paying any more money ?
That pi$$$es off Russia long time ?
PAK FA is still in thinking process while ,SU 35 is on the skies , that's huge difference & will be a huge difference ?
What does it means 4++ fighter jet ?
Oh it means it has the capability to be upgraded as 5 th generation jet ?right
If its has that capability then it won't be much hard to up grade it to 5th generation level even after 10 years or so ?
Russia didn't allowed the export of SU -35 up until they were convinced that SU-37 will be there work horse & they won't let any one get that ?
Also by opening the deal to Pakistan , Russia has technically has slapped India of its double play with Russia ?
Not long you will see , India,s reaction ordering more SU 35 from Russia ?lol
& then you will rethink how obselte its is for them ?



gau8av said:


> hello, they're not.
> 
> 
> yup, I think the US will okay and sanction more f-16s (a platform PAF are already very comfortable with).. could be a mix of second hand jets and some new ones, probably not to block 60 standard though.
> 
> the US are not going to let Pakistan go to the Russian camp just as much as the Russians are poking India with this SU 35 news.


Hill-loo they are ? Stop crying ?lolzz


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## gau8av

dadeechi said:


> I have not seen any such clarification


Russia says, will not take any step detrimental to India's security | Business Standard News


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## PakShaheen79

Can you please explain how?


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## batmannow

gau8av said:


> Russia says, will not take any step detrimental to India's security | Business Standard News


Sure but Russia will sell SU 35 TO PAKISTAN CAUSE IT WONT DETRIMENTAL TO INDIA ,s security ?
If its , then place a order with hard cash of SU 35 at least 500 planes ?
Another Indian new paper trying to come down Indian public ?lolzz

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## gau8av

batmannow said:


> Sure but Russia will sell SU 35 TO PAKISTAN CAUSE IT WONT DETRIMENTAL TO INDIA ,s security ?
> If its , then place a order with hard cash of SU 35 at least 500 planes ?
> Another Indian new paper trying to come down Indian public ?lolzz


pakistan is not getting any sukhois, keep posting smileys, even I can


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## I M Sikander

gau8av said:


> pakistan is not getting any sukhois, keep posting smileys, even I can


This is same what the indians said about thunder engines and even about mi 35 helos.
So indians keep your wet dreams alive.

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## gau8av

Ranasikander said:


> This is same what the indians said about thunder engines and even about mi 35 helos.
> So indians keep your wet dreams alive.


and we get arty guns, chinooks, apache, were offered f-16IN, strategic transport, emals for new carrier and etc from the US, a traditional weapons supplier to Pak

but you're not getting any sukhois from Russia, no chance


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## Kakaspai

gau8av said:


> and we get arty guns, chinooks, apache, were offered f-16IN, strategic transport, emals for new carrier and etc from the US, a traditional weapons supplier to Pak
> 
> but you're not getting any sukhois from Russia, no chance


Ok.ok.you dont have to tell us again and again and again and again.only time can tell if we will get them or not


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## gau8av

Kakaspai said:


> Ok.ok.you dont have to tell us again and again and again and again.only time can tell if we will get them or not


it will, but if you do manage it, it'll be a huge strategic failure of our foreign policy.. clean bowled, killi uda di type situation so it is a big deal 

see, if you guys manage the Eurofighter or F 15 or Gripen etc, that wont be as big a deal as as PAF getting *Russian *jets

changing world though, time will tell.


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## SarthakGanguly

gau8av said:


> it will, but if you do manage it, it'll be a huge strategic failure of our foreign policy.. clean bowled, killi uda di type situation so it is a big deal


Not really. Over the years Russians have been overcharging us. They also have blackmailed us with spare parts. They want greater profits. That's all.


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## mzeeshanfahd

Horus said:


> Cherry on the top will be to refuse to IBRIS radar and instead opt for the AESA being developed for J-20



Oh Come on HORUS Sir ,


"itna maza lena acha nahi"  .... I do not know if we are getting those beauties or not but if we do many poster on this thread will die....


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## gau8av

SarthakGanguly said:


> Not really. Over the years Russians have been overcharging us. They also have blackmailed us with spare parts. They want greater profits. That's all.


the thing is, despite the spares and maintenance issues with Ruski equipment, we're still highly, or one might even say fully dependent on the Russians for our air force fighter requirements, and that's set to continue on with the FGFA for another 30 years or so or till however long it takes to get an indigenous manufacturing base going, which is the endgame. You can expect everyone to milk us till that happens.


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## Kakaspai

gau8av said:


> the thing is, despite the spares and maintenance issues with Ruski equipment, we're still highly, or one might even say fully dependent on the Russians for our air force fighter requirements, and that's set to continue on with the FGFA for another 30 years or so or till however long it takes to get an indigenous manufacturing base going, which is the endgame. You can expect everyone to milk us till that happens.


As much as Russia needs India, India needs Russia too


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## Donatello

Okay, so how about this
China can reverse engineer flankers for themselves, that is what we know. However, they cannot re-export it, since Russia is already mad at them for reverse engineering. If Pakistan wants a heavy, flanker class aircraft, it would have to come from Russia directly, otherwise we might upset the Russians if we buy J-15/j-16 from China. The last this we want is Russians stopping the supply and support for RD93 engines.

Usually when Pakistan buys big equipment from China, it is either paid in full or via Ex-Imp banks of China at really low interest rates. But since Gwader and CPEC is an important strategy for China, we need something heavy to safeguard it. Meaning, China might be willing to finance the Su35 purchase. That way, Russia gets the export orders, China gets to make sure that Pakistan is equipped to provide security and support in the Arabia Sea/Persian Gulf and Pakistan gets to have it's maritime boundaries secured at a nominal but justifiable cost.

Since this news was un-expected, PAF might shoot down any rumors or discussions ( i am sure they are already pissed at the news leak). Su35 will be the ultimate game changer. It will literally put India's Naval plan in Arabian Sea in a limbo....and think of this...Su35s operating out of Gwader will have Iran's Chahbhar under their wings...and Su35s operating out of Karachi will put Mumbai at un-ease. What more can you ask for?



Bossman said:


> There are has been no comments on SU 35 from official Pakistani sources. Only comments from Russians and discussions on forums.



Which makes it even more interesting.....

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## gau8av

Kakaspai said:


> As much as Russia needs India, India needs Russia too


yup, entangled by dependency, not good.. aap log bhi 'great satan' ke saath buri tareh fase hue ho


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## Akasa

gau8av said:


> no, the "battle proven" tag does add quite a bit of value



How does levelling a country with Cold-War-era air defenses add "value" to a combat platform designed and touted to defeat other systems in its class?



gau8av said:


> China has a long way to go before it can effectively compete with Russian or US/EU stuff..



If by "competing" you mean arms exports, then that is neither a goal nor a necessity for the companies that build Chinese fighter aircraft.


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## ejaz007

Muhammad Omar said:


> A Pakistan Pilot didn't even know that PAF operated twin Engine aircraft.... A5 single engine pe urate thy kya
> 
> Or Kya yeh Constitution me lika hai ya Quaid E Azam k 14 points me k Pakistan twin engine jet ni le skta???



Perhaps some sort of reporting mistake?



aliyusuf said:


> F-6 were twin engined and were operated for more than 3 decades by the PAF. The A-5, an F-6 derivative, was also twin engined and served for more than 2 decades.
> 
> How can Air Cmdr.® Kaiser Tufail make such a statement? One could have accepted him saying that the PAF never operated a heavy fighter or a twin-engined heavy fighter. But this is not what is presented in the article.
> 
> Puts a question mark on the veracity of the content as presented by Usman Ansari.



Perhaps some sort of reporting mistake?


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## aliyusuf

ejaz007 said:


> Perhaps some sort of reporting mistake?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps some sort of reporting mistake?



Well ... reporting mistake should not be about something that is being presented inside of a quote. Then its not a mistake. It is either a case of extremely slack journalism or an attempt to paraphrase snippets of the author's own views in the garb of a well known person's quote. I will leave that open to interpretation.


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## airmarshal

Hindustani78 said:


> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
> Last Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2015 - 23:54
> New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.
> 
> Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> "Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.
> 
> "This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.
> 
> "As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other," it added.
> 
> PTI



Phew!!! Indian ego can now wear cucumber on the eyes and go for a sun bath. 

But then there is too much diplomatic jargon in the statement and no categorical denial. 

Whatever makes India happy!


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## majid mehmood

persona_non_grata said:


> Why not 2,3 or 4 sqds ?
> 
> @Stealth
> PAF paint job on a Su-35 might lift spirits here


if it will be 1 sqd it would be dedicated to navy but 5 sqd it would be dedicated to both paf & pn 
i donnt how many sqd will go in pn 
but 1 sqd will contain 12 or 16 planes in air force


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## Sulman Badshah

majid mehmood said:


> 12 or 16 planes in air force


it is 14-18

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## Zaneesh852

gau8av said:


> the thing is, despite the spares and maintenance issues with Ruski equipment, we're still highly, or one might even say fully dependent on the Russians for our air force fighter requirements, and that's set to *continue on with the FGFA* for another 30 years or so or till however long it takes to get an indigenous manufacturing base going, which is the endgame. You can expect everyone to milk us till that happens.


FGFA is likely to yield another tejas for IAF. IAF would always end up buying JSF if she is allowed to India.


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## dadeechi

Donatello said:


> Okay, so how about this
> China can reverse engineer flankers for themselves, that is what we know. However, they cannot re-export it, since Russia is already mad at them for reverse engineering. If Pakistan wants a heavy, flanker class aircraft, it would have to come from Russia directly, otherwise we might upset the Russians if we buy J-15/j-16 from China. The last this we want is Russians stopping the supply and support for RD93 engines.
> 
> Usually when Pakistan buys big equipment from China, it is either paid in full or via Ex-Imp banks of China at really low interest rates. But since Gwader and CPEC is an important strategy for China, we need something heavy to safeguard it. Meaning, China might be willing to finance the Su35 purchase. That way, Russia gets the export orders, China gets to make sure that Pakistan is equipped to provide security and support in the Arabia Sea/Persian Gulf and Pakistan gets to have it's maritime boundaries secured at a nominal but justifiable cost.
> 
> Since this news was un-expected, PAF might shoot down any rumors or discussions ( i am sure they are already pissed at the news leak). Su35 will be the ultimate game changer. It will literally put India's Naval plan in Arabian Sea in a limbo....and think of this...Su35s operating out of Gwader will have Iran's Chahbhar under their wings...and Su35s operating out of Karachi will put Mumbai at un-ease. What more can you ask for?
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes it even more interesting.....



And that's exactly what I have indicated in my earlier post on the "India, Russia opt for velvet divorce" thread.

China is the architect of this deal and this is actually a master stroke by China for the following reasons.

1) China would provide finances , Russia to provide the Hardware, Pakistan to provide the men & location.

2) China may even retain full or partial ownership of the planes. Lease to buy model.

3) Russia has been pitching its SU-35 sale proposal to China for sometime now but china has not been interested due to it's own indigenous programs. This deal would satisfy the Russians.

4) China pitching-in would mean the numbers could cross 100+

5) The reason would be to protect CPEC in which Russia would also join in shortly

6) This deal would ensure that PAF & PN would feel totally secured and would get it completely out of the clutches and bondage of western hardware as it would be supported by two Major powers who have inherent gain in the prosperity of Pakistan

7) India is at the cross roads and needs to decide how it would react. Will it bury the bury the hatchet with China & Pakistan or will it join the western camp. China is trying to force a decision which India does not want to take at this point in time. India's decision is important for China before it acts on India's SCO membership application.

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## dadeechi

gau8av said:


> Russia says, will not take any step detrimental to India's security | Business Standard News



The above statement actually implies the other way around..

We need to note that the news doing rounds does not quote anonymous sources but rather Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov. 

Now this clarification from the Russian Embassy in India implies the following

1) Russia has taken note and is aware of news doing rounds on the SU-35 sale to Pakistan

2) Russia would not explicitly deny that the news is false

3) Russia does not explicitly confirm that it would not sell SU-35 to Pakistan

4) Releases a vague statement which could be interpreted per their convenience at a later date

The reason for the statement is to wait for what India would offer to Russia for them to confirm that the news is false. Now the ball is India's court. Hence, we see the news in the last day that India would be upgrading SU30MKI, procuring PAK-FA, finalize contract on FGFA and may buy few squadrons of SU-35...

It is to be seen what amount of Business from India would satisfy Russia to issue a confirmation that there would not be any sale of SU-35 to Pakistan.

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## batmannow

Donatello said:


> Okay, so how about this
> China can reverse engineer flankers for themselves, that is what we know. However, they cannot re-export it, since Russia is already mad at them for reverse engineering. If Pakistan wants a heavy, flanker class aircraft, it would have to come from Russia directly, otherwise we might upset the Russians if we buy J-15/j-16 from China. The last this we want is Russians stopping the supply and support for RD93 engines.
> 
> Usually when Pakistan buys big equipment from China, it is either paid in full or via Ex-Imp banks of China at really low interest rates. But since Gwader and CPEC is an important strategy for China, we need something heavy to safeguard it. Meaning, China might be willing to finance the Su35 purchase. That way, Russia gets the export orders, China gets to make sure that Pakistan is equipped to provide security and support in the Arabia Sea/Persian Gulf and Pakistan gets to have it's maritime boundaries secured at a nominal but justifiable cost.
> 
> Since this news was un-expected, PAF might shoot down any rumors or discussions ( i am sure they are already pissed at the news leak). Su35 will be the ultimate game changer. It will literally put India's Naval plan in Arabian Sea in a limbo....and think of this...Su35s operating out of Gwader will have Iran's Chahbhar under their wings...and Su35s operating out of Karachi will put Mumbai at un-ease. What more can you ask for?
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes it even more interesting.....


Super post !



dadeechi said:


> The above statement actually implies the other way around..
> 
> We need to note that the news doing rounds does not quote anonymous sources but rather Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov.
> 
> Now this clarification from the Russian Embassy in India implies the following
> 
> 1) Russia has taken note and is aware of news doing rounds on the SU-35 sale to Pakistan
> 
> 2) Russia would not explicitly deny that the news is false
> 
> 3) Russia does not explicitly confirm that it would not sell SU-35 to Pakistan
> 
> 4) Releases a vague statement which could be interpreted per their convenience at a later date
> 
> The reason for the statement is to wait for what India would offer to Russia for them to confirm that the news is false. Now the ball is India's court. Hence, we see the news in the last day that India would be upgrading SU30MKI, procuring PAK-FA, finalize contract on FGFA and may buy few squadrons of SU-35...
> 
> It is to be seen what amount of Business from India would satisfy Russia to issue a confirmation that there would not be any sale of SU-35 to Pakistan.


All you mean is that Russia has put INDIA in a preasure cooker ?lolzz

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## gau8av

dadeechi said:


> The above statement actually implies the other way around..
> 
> We need to note that the news doing rounds does not quote anonymous sources but rather Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov.
> 
> Now this clarification from the Russian Embassy in India implies the following
> 
> 1) Russia has taken note and is aware of news doing rounds on the SU-35 sale to Pakistan
> 
> 2) Russia would not explicitly deny that the news is false
> 
> 3) Russia does not explicitly confirm that it would not sell SU-35 to Pakistan
> 
> 4) Releases a vague statement which could be interpreted per their convenience at a later date
> 
> The reason for the statement is to wait for what India would offer to Russia for them to confirm that the news is false. Now the ball is India's court. Hence, we see the news in the last day that India would be upgrading SU30MKI, procuring PAK-FA, finalize contract on FGFA and may buy few squadrons of SU-35...
> 
> It is to be seen what amount of Business from India would satisfy Russia to issue a confirmation that there would not be any sale of SU-35 to Pakistan.


Putin wrapped up a 100 billion in deals when he was here last, and the joint statement read there would be more military co-operation. He also bought Sergey Aksyonov, Prime Minister of Crimea along with him. 

Wait for Modi's upcoming December visit to Moscow, there should be some more big announcements regarding military procurement and a bit more clarity regarding Russian military sales to Pakistan. 

I'm still calling bs on this whole flanker thing for now.

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## deckingraj

dadeechi said:


> The above statement actually implies the other way around..
> 
> We need to note that the news doing rounds does not quote anonymous sources but rather Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov.
> 
> Now this clarification from the Russian Embassy in India implies the following
> 
> 1) Russia has taken note and is aware of news doing rounds on the SU-35 sale to Pakistan
> 
> 2) Russia would not explicitly deny that the news is false
> 
> 3) Russia does not explicitly confirm that it would not sell SU-35 to Pakistan
> 
> 4) Releases a vague statement which could be interpreted per their convenience at a later date
> 
> The reason for the statement is to wait for what India would offer to Russia for them to confirm that the news is false. Now the ball is India's court. Hence, we see the news in the last day that India would be upgrading SU30MKI, procuring PAK-FA, finalize contract on FGFA and may buy few squadrons of SU-35...
> 
> *It is to be seen what amount of Business from India would satisfy Russia to issue a confirmation that there would not be any sale of SU-35 to Pakistan.*



Aren't you overreacting a bit?? Are you saying that diplomatic world is hostage to such bs news/statements?? Such statements are for public consumption's. I can still understand why China would want Su35 to be given to Pakistan however i can't fathom a single reason of what would Russia get from it?? Let me ask you a few questions...

How many such planes can PAF consume?? Do your maths then and thereafter please tell me why on this earth would Russia do anything which will jeopardize its relations with India and have the punch to push us in western camp for good?? What is Russia getting from all this??


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## dadeechi

gau8av said:


> Putin wrapped up a 100 billion in deals when he was here last, and the joint statement read there would be more military co-operation. He also bought Sergey Aksyonov, Prime Minister of Crimea along with him.
> 
> Wait for Modi's upcoming December visit to Moscow, there should be some more big announcements regarding military procurement and a bit more clarity regarding Russian military sales to Pakistan.
> 
> I'm still calling bs on this whole flanker thing for now.



Hope is a key element which always keep things moving..


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## gau8av

dadeechi said:


> Hope is a key element which always keep things moving..


indeed, the Pakistanis live almost entirely off it.


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## dadeechi

deckingraj said:


> Aren't you overreacting a bit?? Are you saying that diplomatic world is hostage to such bs news/statements?? Such statements are for public consumption's. I can still understand why China would want Su35 to be given to Pakistan however i can't fathom a single reason of what would Russia get from it?? Let me ask you a few questions...
> 
> How many such planes can PAF consume?? Do your maths then and thereafter please tell me why on this earth would Russia do anything which will jeopardize its relations with India and have the punch to push us in western camp for good?? What is Russia getting from all this??



I never stated that Russia is dumping India.

Outside a handful of ex-soviet nations, India is probably the most trusted partner for Russia. Unfortunately for Russia, India is not as strong as China economically forcing it to have tactical relationship with China to counter the west.

There was a time couple of years ago when Russia was still deliberating if the Siberian pipe line should reach China or Japan. It was Japan's decision (under western pressure) which forced Russia towards china and to close the 30 year energy deal.

What Russia is doing is analogous to a man flirting with two girl friends in front his wife to test and reconfirm the relationship and at the same time validating current tolerance limits of the wife....

This may turnout to be a blessing in disguise for the Indian military as many pending procurements may now be pushed with greater vigor and urgency.


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## Basel

Came across this tweet of may be a PAF pilot can any knowledgeable member confirm authenticity of it?

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## deckingraj

dadeechi said:


> *I never stated that Russia is dumping India.*
> 
> Outside a handful of ex-soviet nations, India is probably the most trusted partner for Russia. Unfortunately for Russia, India is not as strong as China economically forcing it to have tactical relationship with China to counter the west.
> 
> There was a time couple of years ago when Russia was still deliberating if the Siberian pipe line should reach China or Japan. It was Japan's decision (under western pressure) which forced Russia towards china and to close the 30 year energy deal.
> 
> What Russia is doing is analogous to a man flirting with two girl friends in front his wife to test and reconfirm the relationship and at the same time validating current tolerance limits of the wife....
> 
> This may turnout to be a blessing in disguise for the Indian military as many pending procurements may now be pushed with greater vigor and urgency.



If they seal su35 deal then it is nothing but equivalent of dumping India...I guess both of us are saying that this may be more of pressure tactics than anything else...regarding China i beg to differ. They have always given them all the weapons that China wanted irrespective of what New Delhi thinks....Pakistan being a small market is bulldozed easily by India....China is a different ball game...


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## Signalian

Horus said:


> Both JF-17 and J-31 lack the RANGE we are talking about.



BM's,CM's and ALCM's are there for range.


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## aamerjamal

deckingraj said:


> Aren't you overreacting a bit?? Are you saying that diplomatic world is hostage to such bs news/statements?? Such statements are for public consumption's. I can still understand why China would want Su35 to be given to Pakistan however i can't fathom a single reason of what would Russia get from it?? Let me ask you a few questions...
> 
> How many such planes can PAF consume?? Do your maths then and thereafter please tell me why on this earth would Russia do anything which will jeopardize its relations with India and have the punch to push us in western camp for good?? What is Russia getting from all this??


Do you even knew why Former Russia (USSR) split into pieces? isn't it the same port GAWADER Port. So what India can offer Russia when they are getting the access to same port with no war ? 
btw can you tell me the list of new procurement from Russia (in last five years) none other then these transport helicopters?
the deals that you Indians are whining about are all more then 5 years OLD, isn't it?


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## batmannow

Yaduveer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/642044092600291328
> Le lo Su35


Tell him to tweet the name of official ?
Or I let it open for you ?ramoo tea boy ?



Darth Vader said:


> that depend on who is the aggressor , what are they using ,
> Pakistan Cant Afford Any Current Western Jets In Big Numbers , Cant Keep Hopes On Turkish bird as it will take minimum of 10 to 15 years , Going For Su 35 Will Be The Biggest Thing Pak Can do to piss off america but They can try to give some goodies which can stop pak from jumping on the other side ,
> Possible is way is Make Thunder a capable Bird with Aesa and other EW , some changes in airframe and its material so it can hold its end against modern capable Birds , Add Few Squads of Viper and Valla It PAF can be a real decent potent force which will give Paf capability to go deep in enemy area on whole new level , j 31 Can be customised to our Need As same is being done With Thunder platform , We wont See thunder block 10 or 15 to The Natural process is Pakistan after Filling the Gap Will look at a new platform in to invest further for future


We have enough of American goodies (F-16 abcd efgh ink)
& Americans can't offer us more then that ,even if they wanted to ?
So.its SU -35 time now ,& hell we want to see ,what america does ,when it gets pi$$ed off ?


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## batmannow

gau8av said:


> pakistan is not getting any sukhois, keep posting smileys, even I can











This is your MMRCA which your RAMU JEE will get for you ?lol
It shows how much pain is in your stomach & that's enough for me ?
No more smilieys but fact remains there , Russian FM don't live in India ?lol

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## Kaniska

Assault Rifle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641995553425874944Asad Hashim is Reuters Correspondent in Pakistan and was previously with Al Jazeera.



I think, logically it makes sense for Russia to deal with Pakistan...If we can deal with US who just now sold F-16 to Pakistan, then why can not we be felxible for our friends like Russia? This is not nothing surprising...


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## Viper0011.

gau8av said:


>



Did you jump like this when Pakistan tested their first cruise missile? Or did you jump like this when the first JFT rolled out? Or did you jump like this when you saw the first image of the JFT with BVRs? or did you jump like this when you heard they are building air-launched and sub-launched cruise missiles, etc, etc?

This is the standard Indian response, which is silly. You are jumping up and down with joy on a tweet. I can write a tweet that I confirm that there are talks between the US and Pakistan for the -35....do I have to prove it to anyone? Hell no, its my tweet and I can do free speech (even though its bullshiiit like this one here). You give more credit to a stupid journalist than the Russian defense minister?     (enough said through images)!



Horus said:


> F-16 is the LAST American fighter PAF has bought.
> The journo called some PAF source, he told him what he wanted him to hear.



You'll see -35 in PAF too. Just wait a decade

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## manojb

Don't worry jf17 block lV will have everything in su35 .lol.


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## Pakistanisage

A Deal is never done till it is done.

One should never celebrate till you have the goods in hand.

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## silent poison

Irony here is Pakistani asking the official comment on denial while they didnt ask the same when Russian media reported sale ( Negotiation) of Su-35 to Pakistan .


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## me_itsme

Areesh said:


> Lol even I think PAF won't go for SU35. But the way this bharati @Assault Rifle created a thread based on a tweet. Shows how frustrated bharatis like this one are with those news articles.
> 
> First decline in terror incidents in Pakistan and then this tweet. I can certainly see chaddi of this terror supporter bharati @Assault Rifle getting geeli and peeli at the same time.




Lol you created a thread based on a fb post and you are upset because he created a thread based on a tweet ha ha. Typical.


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## gau8av

Viper0011. said:


> standard Indian response


forgive me, just a random civvie here, man. 

but yeah, I'd hate to see your air force flying SU 35s, but given how you guys are very dependent on US military aid, and that there is so much friction in US-Russian ties lately, Ukraine, sanctions etc.. I don't think you should get your hopes up too high either, the US will not like you guys go buy Russian jets, no chance.


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## Quwa

gau8av said:


> forgive me, just a random civvie here, man.
> 
> but yeah, I'd hate to see your air force flying SU 35s, but given how you guys are very dependent on US military aid, and that there is so much friction in US-Russian ties lately, Ukraine, sanctions etc.. I don't think you should get your hopes up too high either, the US will not like you guys go buy Russian jets, no chance.


Who said buying from Russia would impact U.S aid?

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## gau8av

Mark Sien said:


> Who said buying from Russia would impact U.S aid?


As far as the US is concerned, nobody should be doing any business with the Russians right now, and they'll use all the leverage they have with everyone to ensure as much, and with Pakistan, they have a *lot *of leverage.


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## Quwa

gau8av said:


> As far as the US is concerned, nobody should be doing any business with the Russians right now, and they'll use all the leverage they have with everyone to ensure as much, and with Pakistan, they have a *lot *of leverage.


Pakistan isn't going to change Russia's fortunes overnight, any sale of Su-35 would at best be small and based on some kind of line of credit or payment plan. That isn't going to impact America's issues with Russia over Ukraine. Not only that, but accessing Pakistan itself isn't going to drastically change things for Russia.

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## Dalit

LOL @ these pathetic Indians. They can't even get their MMRCA deal on rails and here they are lecturing others about things they don't even know the ABC of.

I strongly urge the moderators to take firm action against Indians who are derailing every thread regarding Su-35. Modi ki shadi me Pappu diwana...

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## batmannow

gau8av said:


> As far as the US is concerned, nobody should be doing any business with the Russians right now, and they'll use all the leverage they have with everyone to ensure as much, and with Pakistan, they have a *lot *of leverage.





gau8av said:


> forgive me, just a random civvie here, man.
> 
> but yeah, I'd hate to see your air force flying SU 35s, but given how you guys are very dependent on US military aid, and that there is so much friction in US-Russian ties lately, Ukraine, sanctions etc.. I don't think you should get your hopes up too high either, the US will not like you guys go buy Russian jets, no chance.










Here is your MMRCA , go play with that , & take rest ?lol

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## Signalian

manojb said:


> Don't worry jf17 block lV will have everything in su35 .lol.


Thats yours to worry, not ours.


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## gau8av

Mark Sien said:


> Pakistan isn't going to change Russia's fortunes overnight, any sale of Su-35 would at best be small and based on some kind of line of credit or payment plan. That isn't going to impact America's issues with Russia over Ukraine. Not only that, but accessing Pakistan itself isn't going to drastically change things for Russia.


true, but potentially losing India as a customer will negatively impact them. 

Let's see how it all pans out, either way, interesting times ahead.


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## Viper27

The PAF is definitely considering the Su-35.

A two squadron strength (including miscellaneous expenses for training, infrastructure, weapons etc) may not push us back more than USD $1.5-$2 Billion. Given the capabilities of the aircraft, this is not a large amount in the long term.
We may also be able secure favorable payment terms.

Of course this will also increase the forum's indian fan base

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## nomi007

this will give some relaxation to indian kakas


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## volatile

This deal will open defence industry for other vendors as well .In my view we are keen to open Western vendors from Europe and US as our Eastern end is covered pretty much from chinese .


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## Hurter

gau8av said:


> wet dreams ki khichdi



Tum khaa lo humari wet dream ki khichri agar bhook lagi hai to.

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## deckingraj

Firstly if possible maintain a decent courtesy otherwise it will become difficult to maintain a healthy conversation as usually after couple of posts it gets down to just abuses and no useful matter....



aamerjamal said:


> Do you even knew why Former Russia (USSR) split into pieces? isn't it the same port GAWADER Port.


What?? I just don't want to debunk your claim so will give you a benefit of doubt here. May be there is something that i just don't know....anyways i would love to hear from you why you think Gwadar had any role whatsoever in bringing down USSR...



> So what India can offer Russia when they are getting the access to same port with no war ?


I will wait for the above answer before i even commment on it. 



> btw can you tell me the list of new procurement from Russia (in last five years) none other then these transport helicopters?the deals that you Indians are whining about are all more then 5 years OLD, isn't it?


To be honest i was expecting this to be a no debate point...it is not about contracts/new contracts...It's about $$$...even our old contracts are worth more than what Pakistan could offer in for say next decade....no??

Anyhow here are few links...I am not even mentioning the strategic program like FGFA/Brahmos/Arihant and another lease for similar class...


​20 deals in 24 hours: Russia-India relations given $100 billion-worth boost — RT Op-Edge
A big bang in Indo-Russian defence relations | Russia & India Report

Also about gwadar i am sure you are aware of development in chabahar. I am sure even you would concede that Indian market is huge a nd what would be the route of that trade...right??

North–South Transport Corridor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Super Falcon

You never know it is blessing in desguise to keep indian pressure out from russian PAF doinv every talk behind close doors


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## Windjammer

Super Falcon said:


> You never know it is blessing in desguise to keep indian pressure out from russian PAF doinv every talk behind close doors



The news is very authentic.
Remember, the issue regarding SU-35 wasn't disclosed by Pakistan but by the Russian minister.
Apparently Russia has offered the aircraft to Pakistan and Pakistan is weighing the options.

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## cmpk1

The only thing in favour of India is it's massive market, & because of that it's economy, otherwise it has nothing else to offer, It has failed to be at the level of China. It should have been up there with them instead of trying to compete with a small nation of 190 million. India & Pakistan are still pretty much similar & in some case Pakistan is better i.e. HDI (human development index). 

Keeping your emotions aside, there is a high probability that relationship between Pakistan & Russia will only get better. why? Well, because, foremost, of its strategic location! Pakistan may not be a bigger market for the Russians, but it can certainly be an economic gateway for them! Through Pakistan, Russia & central Asian countries will have access to Middle East, South East Asia, & African markets! & not to forget that at some point India will have to compromise with Pakistan, India needs gas desperately & that can only happen via gas pipeline through Pakistan. 

Now think from the Russian perspective, would you like to keep Pakistan closer or keep the relationship stalemate just to appease India? Russia will join the CPEC for sure. China & Iran, 2 major common allies between Pakistan & Russia, do not forget this factor as well. Russia has so much to gain from Pakistan, but Indian's are not getting this at the moment that with business nations look for strategic partnership as will, & Pakistan has so much to offer.

SU35 or no Su35, this we will know at some point, but what India needs to be worried about is the increasing close relationship between Pakistan & Russia. On the other hand, India & China relationship is purely of business nature, China is getting billions out of India. & I hope India commits the blunder of taking their relationship to the next level with the US.

For me strategic relationship is much stronger than the relationship based on business. I won't be surprised when Russian naval vessels will be docking at our sea port in the future, & i won't be surprised if we ink a major defence deal with the Russians. Already get RD-93 for JF17, that would be used against India, so, thanks to the Russians. Don't know why Indians are acting all emotional when the groundwork has already been done. More disappoints to come for the Indians.

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## LonE_WolF

Windjammer said:


> The news is very authentic.
> Remember, the issue regarding SU-35 wasn't disclosed by Pakistan but by the Russian minister.
> Apparently Russia has offered the aircraft to Pakistan and Pakistan is weighing the options.


also this news is not new either.
almost 2 years ago i heard about it for the first time.


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## cmpk1

we're in a process of becoming a strategic partner of Russia. In return for business investment & letting them use CPEC we'd certainly get some nice gadgets. 

All depends on the PAF, are they ambitious enough for SU35? With China Iran in the bloc, we should go for it. won't face the nightmarish diplomatic relationship we have had with the US.


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## Windjammer

LonE_WolF said:


> also this news is not new either.
> almost 2 years ago i heard about it for the first time.


Little known to many, Russia also offered SU-27s as far back as 1994.

1994 | 2857 | Flight Archive

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## Green Angel

Sad News........ Anyway 

Congratulations to IAF......

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## LonE_WolF

Windjammer said:


> Little known to many, Russia also offered SU-27s as far back as 1994.
> 
> 1994 | 2857 | Flight Archive


well i didn't knew that. thanks for sharing.


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## Farah Sohail

Windjammer said:


> The news is very authentic.
> Remember, the issue regarding SU-35 wasn't disclosed by Pakistan but by the Russian minister.
> Apparently Russia has offered the aircraft to Pakistan and Pakistan is weighing the options.



Pardon me for my ignorance.. I am nil on such matters.... But i have a question.... First..what is the American equivalent/ alternative for Su 35? Secondly...would it be a wise option to go for Russian hi tech aircraft like Su35 when Indians have been operating Russain hardware since decades and they know inside out of Russian hardware? the same reason..as we have heard .....for which Indians didnt choose advanced versions of F16 which were offered by US because they know PAF knows f16 too well?


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## Signalian

manojb said:


> Don't worry jf17 block lV will have everything in su35 .lol.


Thats yours to worry, not ours.


Farah Sohail said:


> Pardon me for my ignorance.. I am nil on such matters.... But i have a question.... First..what is the American equivalent/ alternative for Su 35? Secondly...would it be a wise option to go for Russian hi tech aircraft like Su35 when Indians have been operating Russain hardware since decades and they know inside out of Russian hardware? the same reason..as we have heard .....for which Indians didnt choose advanced versions of F16 which were offered by US because they know PAF knows f16 too well?



F15E is equivalent of SU35. rest of answers you can search in related threads


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## Muhammad Omar

Farah Sohail said:


> Pardon me for my ignorance.. I am nil on such matters.... But i have a question.... First..what is the American equivalent/ alternative for Su 35? Secondly...would it be a wise option to go for Russian hi tech aircraft like Su35 when Indians have been operating Russain hardware since decades and they know inside out of Russian hardware? the same reason..as we have heard .....for which Indians didnt choose advanced versions of F16 which were offered by US because they know PAF knows f16 too well?




Su-35 Equivalent is F-35 and F-22 It can take all other American jets 

Small number will not Hurt Pakistan it has an edge over to


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## Basel

Windjammer said:


> The news is very authentic.
> Remember, the issue regarding SU-35 wasn't disclosed by Pakistan but by the Russian minister.
> Apparently Russia has offered the aircraft to Pakistan and Pakistan is weighing the options.


Dear can u confirm authenticity of this account on twitter? He seems like a PAF pilot and look what he posted.

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## Windjammer

Farah Sohail said:


> Pardon me for my ignorance.. I am nil on such matters.... But i have a question.... First..what is the American equivalent/ alternative for Su 35? Secondly...would it be a wise option to go for Russian hi tech aircraft like Su35 when Indians have been operating Russain hardware since decades and they know inside out of Russian hardware? the same reason..as we have heard .....for which Indians didnt choose advanced versions of F16 which were offered by US because they know PAF knows f16 too well?


It's not quite simple as that, let me give you an example, ...in 1969, USSR, as it was called back then, offered Pakistan the MiG-21, which Pakistan declined but two decades later we inducted the Chinese version called the F-7.....as it then met PAF's doctrine and let me tell you little bit of news, had the US agreed to some Indian demands, they would have jumped on the F-16.

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## Farah Sohail

Basel said:


> Dear can u confirm authenticity of this account on twitter? He seems like a PAF pilot and look what he posted.
> 
> View attachment 256879



I dont think we can / should trust twitter accounts... There many people people who pose as PAF pilots, maybe only PAf enthusiasts or maybe retired also...

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## Dagger Unit

SU-35 is awesome bird...wish PAF could have few squadron.


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## Myth_buster_1

I am pretty sure if PAF can induct f-16 from era of F-86 mirage-3 and mig-19s then pretty sure Su-35 can be inducted in era where PAF personals have experience with F-15 M2k9 and new F-16s...

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## Sulman Badshah

*Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*





Dave Majumdar
September 14, 2015




Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.

In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, *Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. *Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.


*“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister* Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.

Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.” 

*An Edge for Pakistan?: *

*Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers,* but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.

*How Would India Respond?:*

However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase* 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France *after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.

If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.



Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.

Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:

There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.

*The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.* Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. *For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects).* The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted. 

In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.

*"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters*," Carter had said at the time.

Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.

_Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for _The National Interest_. You can follow him on Twitter: _@DaveMajumdar_._

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## RazorMC

There were already segments in Washington that were willing to offer the F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project. What it would receive was the option to buy the aircraft once they became available and the option to manufacture certain components in India itself.

IAF was more interested in obtaining the Rafale under a ToT which would make it more manageable and financially viable in the long run.

Wrt Su-35, they are not on offer to Pakistan at this time. Russia will not provide any hardware that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.

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## Sipahi

Good one, I would love to see the urgency of Indian Govt.


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## Indika

RazorMC said:


> F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project.


financial contribution ? Seems they need some bakras to make the project economically viable. If India had so much money then we can have more LCA projects, even if it fails at we would have gained some technical expertise that we can carry forward.

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## war&peace

RazorMC said:


> There were already segments in Washington that were willing to offer the F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project. What it would receive was the option to buy the aircraft once they became available and the option to manufacture certain components in India itself.
> 
> IAF was more interested in obtaining the Rafale under a ToT which would make it more manageable and financially viable in the long run.
> 
> Wrt Su-35, they are not on offer to Pakistan at this time. Russia will not provide any hardware that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.


Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future

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## Muhammad Omar

This confirms that Russians Offered Su-35 to Pakistan 

New Block Formations

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## Hurter

The gates are widely open for India from all the sides to buy military hardware as compared to Pakistan. U.S, Israel & Russia of course.


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## Dalit

I wouldn't be surprised if the Su-35 ended up with PAF. The paranoia shown by many is a healthy sign for PAF. It means that the enemies are stressed out and quite concerned at the outcome. The amount of speculation by many foreigners is very telling.

This is what I envisage as major replacements and acquisitions in the coming years:

- JF-17s (various Blocks) in bulk replacing most aging fleet
- Perhaps a cut on the number of JF-17s replaced by the J-10B platform. Especially if ally China offers favorable repayment scheme.
- F-16s in respectable numbers
- A few elite squadrons of Su-35 Flankers
- J-31 5th gen platform

Now imagine all this linked with Chinese and Swedish AWACS and you start getting the picture. Not to mention domestic and foreign weapons systems integrated on many platforms.

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## me_itsme

war&peace said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future



lol!!


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## WaLeEdK2

Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?

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## saurav

F-35s will come to India for IN not for IAF. INS-Vishal class will have F-35s.

Possibility of Pakistan getting SU-35 is same as India getting F-22 and B-2...

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## Dalit

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?



I wouldn't be surprised if the payment was made on soft loans... The talks are at a quite advanced stage and Pakistan would never have started them had it not figured out the payment scheme. Too early to tell, but the talks are now a fact. This is pretty much confirmed by many major sources including the Russian deputy FM.


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## VelocuR

We know USA is not willing to sell F-35 to Pakistan but what if Pakistan get F-35, is this better option than Su-35? What's difference between them? 

Skinny Su-35 (two engines)







Pregnant F-35 (one engine)

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## Tipu7

RazorMC said:


> F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project.



You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............ 



RazorMC said:


> Russia will not provide any hardware that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.



1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan

These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................

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## VelocuR

*Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter




*

Dec 6, 2014

The Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E is the most potent fighter currently in operation with the Russian Air Force. The powerful twin-engine fighter, which is an advanced derivative of the original Soviet-era Su-27, is high flying, fast and carries an enormous payload. *That, combined with its advanced suite of avionics, makes the Su-35 an extremely dangerous foe to any U.S. fighter, with the exception of the stealthy Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. That is one of the reasons the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force is keen to acquire the new jet.*

*“It’s a great airplane and very dangerous, especially if they make a lot of them,” said one senior U.S. military official with extensive experience on fifth-generation fighters. “I think even an AESA [active electronically scanned array-radar equipped F-15C] Eagle and [Boeing F/A-18E/F] Super Hornet would both have their hands full.”*

One U.S. Navy Super Hornet pilot—a graduate of that service’s elite TOPGUN school—offered a sobering assessment. *“When taken as a singular platform, I like the Su-35’s chances against most of our platforms, with perhaps the exception of the F-22 and F-15C,” the naval aviator said. “I suspect the F/A-18E/F can hold it’s own and F-35 has presumed stealth and sensor management on its side.”*

But one Air Force official with experience on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter said that the Su-35 could pose a serious challenge for the stealthy new American jet. *The F-35 was built primarily as a strike fighter and does not have the sheer speed or altitude capability of the Su-35 or F-22. “The Su's ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35,” the Air Force official said.*

*As an air-superiority fighter, its major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.

The Su-35 would be launching its weapons from high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft; the F-35 would primarily be operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9.*

*The Su-35 builds on the already potent Flanker airframe, which in many respects already exceeded the aerodynamic performance of the Boeing F-15 Eagle. The Su-35 adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.*

“Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform on paper,” said one highly experienced F-22 pilot. “It's considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft. It possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.”

The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Further, the Air Force official added that even modernized versions of older jets would be in serious trouble against the new Flanker variant. “I'd say our fourth-gen AESAs aren't a big advantage,” said the official. “They're more to get us back in the game against jamming.”



But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven't been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” said another senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor.* “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”*

The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” the Super Hornet pilot said.

*Another of the Su-35’s major advantages is that it carries an enormous payload of air-to-air missiles. “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” the Navy pilot said.*

*On paper, that makes the Su-35 an extremely capable platform, but as one highly experienced F-22 pilot pointed out: “Whether they can translate that into valid tactics remain to be seen.”*

Further, air warfare is far more complicated than comparing individual platforms—the sum total of the forces brought to bear have to be assessed in aggregate.

“It’s always sexy to compare one aircraft to another,” the naval aviator said. “The secret sauce is probably in our fighters and commensurate ‘strike’ or employment packages, to include AWACS, refuelling, and EM-capable platforms.”

Another highly experienced veteran fighter pilot added that much about the Su-35 and the capabilities of the Russian military remain unknown.

*“You really don't know the capabilities of the weapons system or the skill level of the other side's pilots or their battle management system,” one former Air Force pilot with extensive experience with Soviet and Russian hardware said. “A physical platform is a shell of capability. It's what's inside that counts along with the command and control to execute. Our fifth-gen is pretty good. Weapons reliability and defensive suites might make the difference.”*

The Navy Super Hornet pilot added to that point. “The question really comes down to numbers and tactical employment. Where does the fight go down? Are we talking a 1:1 ratio of Su-35 vs. F/A-18Es?” the veteran naval aviator asked. *“I’d give the edge on tactical employment to Western-trained aviators for the time being, though other nations are working hard to close the gap.”*

One of the Air Force pilots concurred. “Our training and skill of USAF pilots will keep us ahead of the game, but they are certainly closing the gap,” one of the Raptor pilots said.

Overall, it would be fair to assess the Su-35 as an extremely capable fighter—perhaps the best Russia or the Soviet Union has ever developed. “But it’s not a Raptor and will be hamstrung by the two key elements of fifth-gen war…stealth, and broad spectrum sensor fusion,” said the senior military official.

Dave Majumdar has been covering defense since 2004. He currently writes for the U.S. Naval Institute, Aviation Week and The Daily Beast, among others. Majumdar previously covered national security issues at Flight International, Defense News and C4ISR Journal. Majumdar studied Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and is a student of naval history.

Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

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## Dalit

Tipu7 said:


> You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............
> 
> 
> 
> 1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
> 2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan
> 
> These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................



Add RD-93M to the list.


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## MilSpec

Neither Pakistan is getting Su35's, Nor India is getting F35's

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## aakash_2410

Dalit said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the Su-35 ended up with PAF. The paranoia shown by many is a healthy sign for PAF. It means that the enemies are stressed out and quite concerned at the outcome. The amount of speculation by many foreigners is very telling.
> 
> This is what I envisage as major replacements and acquisitions in the coming years:
> 
> - JF-17s (various Blocks) in bulk replacing most aging fleet
> - Perhaps a cut on the number of JF-17s replaced by the J-10B platform. Especially if ally China offers favorable repayment scheme.
> - F-16s in respectable numbers
> - A few elite squadrons of Su-35 Flankers
> - J-31 5th gen platform
> 
> Now imagine all this linked with Chinese and Swedish AWACS and you start getting the picture. Not to mention domestic and foreign weapons systems integrated on many platforms.



First of this is a fantasy and if I tried to counter these arguments or suggest how IAF will be better equipped and has better plans. You'd open your nuclear umbrella.

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## Dalit

VelocuR said:


> We know USA is not willing to sell F-35 to Pakistan but what if Pakistan get F-35, is this better option than Su-35? What's difference between them?
> 
> Skinny Su-35 (two engines)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant F-35 (one engine)



All the Americans can and will ever offer to Pakistan are F-16s. At most the Blk52+ which btw is an extremely potent platform. Don't expect anything else though.



aakash_2410 said:


> First of this is a fantasy and if I tried to counter these arguments or suggest how IAF will be better equipped and has better plans. You'd open your nuclear umbrella.



You will never enter the Pakistani airspace. Yes, you are right about missiles raining on your cities in a worst case scenario. It is good to hear you are aware of that and I don't need to elaborate on any of that.

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## Muhammad Omar

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?



Like Same way Pakistan is paying 5 billion for Subs 1 billion for AH-1Z heli For Global cutters patrol boats ATR tanker and may more


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## [Bregs]

aakash_2410 said:


> First of this is a fantasy and if I tried to counter these arguments or suggest how IAF will be better equipped and has better plans. You'd open your nuclear umbrella.



lol , oh dear you gave me heartfull laugh

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## Areesh

MilSpec said:


> Neither Pakistan is not getting Su35's, Nor India is getting F35's



So Pakistan is indeed getting SU35 as per you.

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## !eon

RazorMC said:


> Wrt Su-35, they are not on offer to Pakistan at this time. Russia will not provide any hardware that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.


From where the engines for JF17 are coming? India also had objected on T- 80 UD via Russia and was overruled. 
What China is getting from Russia is also a serious risk to Indian military.


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## WaLeEdK2

MilSpec said:


> Neither Pakistan is not getting Su35's, Nor India is getting F35's


Might want to edit your post bud.

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## aakash_2410

Dalit said:


> You will never enter the Pakistani airspace. Yes, you are right about missiles raining on your cities in a worst case scenario. It is good to hear you are aware of that and I don't need to elaborate on any of that.



lol I liked your post for the sheer entertainment value of it.

Again first of all, war is not even a remote possibility, maybe limited surgical strikes. To which Pakistani establishment will never reply with all out nuclear war because of the concepts called 'proportionality' and 'rationale' but let's just hypothetically say that some Pakistani general got his hands on tactical nukes or even worse you got yours hands on them you initiated 'Full Spectrum Deterrence' do you even realise the response? And let's say India doesn't use nukes like toys but still have you heard of something called Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme?

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## RazorMC

!eon said:


> From where the engines for JF17 are coming? India also had objected on T- 80 UD via Russia and was overruled.
> What China is getting from Russia is also a serious risk to Indian military.


The RD-93 sale owes a lot to the Chinese.
The JF-17 does not pose the same threat to India as the Su-35 will. A replacement for 3rd-gen fighters is nowhere close to what an air-superiority figther offers.



Tipu7 said:


> You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............
> 
> 
> 
> 1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
> 2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan
> 
> These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................


Sorry to disappoint you brother. The Lightning II was open to any country that offered benefit to the programme whether India, Japan, Canada or Turkey. The program did not need funds, but it was being developed as a _Joint Fighter_ with input (technical and financial) from partner countries.

Wrt RD-93, please read my post above.

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## Goenitz

if somehow pakistan get SU-35, how much we can learn about indian su 30s? will it make them half, one third, vulnerable to falcons/thunder?
@Windjammer
same Q if india get f16 !!!


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## RazorMC

eyeswideshut said:


> financial contribution ? Seems they need some bakras make the project economically viable. If India had so much money then we can have more LCA projects, even if it fails at we would have gained some technical expertise that we can carry forward.


The project costs are already under severe criticism esp from those who wanted a Light Fighter like the Viper. Many people also claim that it doesn't offer enough advantage over the Vipers and Hornets to justify the price-tag per aircraft.

PS: While the MMRCA bidding was ongoing, I had expected Rafale to win and India opting out of the JSF (due to its lack of feasibility). Both are true at this time


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## Muhammad Omar

Goenitz said:


> if somehow pakistan get SU-35, how much we can learn about indian su 30s? will it make them half, one third, vulnerable to falcons/thunder?
> @Windjammer
> same Q if india get f16 !!!



Well PAF pilots Flew Flankers of Chinese Including Chinese Su-30's so they know about Flankers Already...

Name Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood

Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 3000
Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.

2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.

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## Goenitz

@Muhammad Omar
i heard about himm... saw his profile on soem f 16 site too.. but still its chinese.... i mean we need orginal maal 
bcz not only Pakistan need to know aircraft perfromance (chinese flankers cna provide that tt too) but we then can get electronics/radar/avonics knowledge if we get hand on su 35

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## Muhammad Omar

Goenitz said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> i heard about himm... saw his profile on soem f 16 site too.. but still its chinese.... i mean we need orginal maal
> bcz not only Pakistan need to know aircraft perfromance (chinese flankers cna provide that tt too) but we then can get electronics/radar/avonics knowledge if we get hand on su 35



i would love that  if we get hand on su 35


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## That Guy

09ee97 said:


> Economy, Economy and Economy. Its the only thing which can help our defence, not a squadron of 6th generation stealth fighters on loans or nuclear bombs/triads. We need to save up, invest on people's future and then these people will give you the technological revolution we have long been seeking. F16s are enough for terrorists and so are our JF-17s and i don't think we should haste our decision based on the fact that India is getting hands on Rafales. India is a big country. It needs to balance china in the region. Engaging war with them will be a suicidal just as any country engaging war with Russia or USA.


That's pretty much a given, and I completely agree.


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## majid mehmood

Sulman Badshah said:


> it is 14-18


it cannot be 18 i mean not at all but su 35 takes alot of space & require lot of maintenance thus minimizing the numbers of each plane in sqds just look at how many f7 we replace with jf17



That Guy said:


> That's pretty much a given, and I completely agree.


india is not like usa or russia


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## jupiter2007

Shenyang J-31 - won't be available to Pakistan until 2022.

Currently there are only four options.....
1) Add more F-16s (used and new)
2) Add more JF-17 block2 and block3
3) J-10c /F-10c
3) J-11D / J-16

FBC-1/JH-7A was rejected by PAF due to under power engine.
JH-7B new engine is in development stages and not going to be ready until 2018.


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## manojb

No one is addressing elephant in the room.. SU35 has HUGE RCS


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## nadeemkhan110

*





Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*

*An Edge for Pakistan?*: 
Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.

*Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:*
There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane
Sources:
Coming soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | Asia Times
Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | The National Interest Blog


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## Khanivore

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*
> 
> *An Edge for Pakistan?*:
> Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.
> 
> *Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:*
> There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane
> Sources:
> Coming soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | Asia Times
> Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | The National Interest Blog


Sounds like Dave Majumdar's got a serious headache at Asia Times regarding Su-35.


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## Blue Marlin

*Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*





Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.

In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.

“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.

Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.” 

An Edge for Pakistan?:

Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.

How Would India Respond?:

However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.

If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.



Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.

Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:

There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.

The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects). The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted. 

In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters," Carter had said at the time.

Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.


----------



## Viper0011.

gau8av said:


> forgive me, just a random civvie here, man.
> 
> but yeah, I'd hate to see your air force flying SU 35s, but given how you guys are very dependent on US military aid, and that there is so much friction in US-Russian ties lately, Ukraine, sanctions etc.. I don't think you should get your hopes up too high either, the US will not like you guys go buy Russian jets, no chance.




Just like Pakistan, you are ALSO VERY depending upon the American and Israeli and Russian tech. If a WWIII starts, what would happen? You guys won't have spare parts for anything as all these three countries will be producing parts and all for the war.

So the SU's and FU's and all....would be sitting without spares, while the JFT of Pakistan will be kicking *** from Islamabad till Dhaka and to Tibet and back!!!!

On a lighter note, let's not write stupid posts. You wrote one and I responded with facts actually, but still far fetched and far from reality!



manojb said:


> No one is addressing elephant in the room.. SU35 has HUGE RCS



The entire Indian airforce inventory has huge RCS. Pakistan will have about 350 JFT's and -16's with much lower RCS. No need to worry for 60-80 or 100 heavies as they'll also be dealing with India's heavier RCS planes!!! By the way, where do you pull this nonsense crap out of? The rear?

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> That's pretty much a given, and I completely agree.


Sure then , just tell bankers to go on the borders & stand upfront from the enemy fire ?lol
Only strong defence can bring a strong economy , without a strong defence no economy can have any gurntees .



dadeechi said:


> I never stated that Russia is dumping India.
> 
> Outside a handful of ex-soviet nations, India is probably the most trusted partner for Russia. Unfortunately for Russia, India is not as strong as China economically forcing it to have tactical relationship with China to counter the west.
> 
> There was a time couple of years ago when Russia was still deliberating if the Siberian pipe line should reach China or Japan. It was Japan's decision (under western pressure) which forced Russia towards china and to close the 30 year energy deal.
> *
> What Russia is doing is analogous to a man flirting with two girl friends in front his wife to test and reconfirm the relationship and at the same time validating current tolerance limits of the wife....*
> 
> This may turnout to be a blessing in disguise for the Indian military as many pending procurements may now be pushed with greater vigor and urgency.


So , in the end this trusted wife of Russia (india) is crying because her husband can't take her anymore or her frats ??? Lolzz
May be it makes him too embarrased in front of whole world because that , fat old , ugly wife is just keep frating in publuc non stop & with thunderous sounds & she showing her loyality because , she can't find a husband like Russia any more ?
Guy is handsome , sure other girls will take him away ?Lol
Its all natural ? No ?



blue marlin said:


> *Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.
> 
> In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.
> 
> “I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.
> 
> Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”
> 
> An Edge for Pakistan?:
> 
> Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.
> 
> How Would India Respond?:
> 
> However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.
> 
> If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.
> 
> Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:
> 
> There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.
> 
> The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects). The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted.
> 
> In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.
> 
> "There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters," Carter had said at the time.
> 
> Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.


Ohh sure F-35 to India year 2099 ?
That's nice !lolzz


----------



## fatman17

SU 35 to pakistan and F35 to India?

Dave Majumdar

September 14, 2015


Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.

In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.

“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.

Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.” 

An Edge for Pakistan?: 

Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.

How Would India Respond?:

However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.

If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.


Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.

Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:

There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.

The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects). The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted. 

In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters," Carter had said at the time.

Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.

Dave Majumdar is the defense editor forThe National Interest. You can follow him on Twitter: @DaveMajumdar.


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## Infinity

war&peace said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future


Between Offering and procuring ...............there is a huge Gap...............and wait till Indian PM visit to Russia

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## Skull and Bones

war&peace said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future



Russia had offered Mig-29s to Pakistan in the early 90s, how did that played out?

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## IceCold

There is no fucking comparison between the two. One is at best a 4.5th generation aircraft while the other is a true 5th generation fighter. The comparison is simply absurd. Pakistan will not go for SU-35, our best bet would be J-10 or the J-11. No chance for a Russian fighter to be a part of our inventory. The logistics would be a nightmare.

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## !eon

About SUs, I m also doubtful but not because of Russians, rather it's PAF. Babas will be offered something from Uncle Sam and they will run to him leaving their shoes behide. Americans have already started playing their cards.
My point is that Russians have been ignoring India's objections. Indians have habit of objections and they have been showing it every where, in France, in Sweden etc.
Then also Pakistan can use Chinese influence on Russia, if they really need something. Which is obviously far more than India.
I will rather take Russian DFM statement as credible unless an authority higher than him negates his statement. But again, procurement from PAF is highly unlikely.



RazorMC said:


> The RD-93 sale owes a lot to the Chinese.
> The JF-17 does not pose the same threat to India as the Su-35 will. A replacement for 3rd-gen fighters is nowhere close to what an air-superiority figther offers.
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you brother. The Lightning II was open to any country that offered benefit to the programme whether India, Japan, Canada or Turkey. The program did not need funds, but it was being developed as a _Joint Fighter_ with input (technical and financial) from partner countries.
> 
> Wrt RD-93, please read my post above.


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## ito

SU 35 falling in to the hands of PAF is very slim, unless off course if Russia wants to jeopardize its defense relations with India. 

Then there is FGFA that India is involved with Russia. India will go for FGFA rather than with F 35. Indian navy may opt for F 35 for its A/C.

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## GURU DUTT

MilSpec said:


> Neither Pakistan is getting Su35's, Nor India is getting F35's


why are you bursting there new bubble of hope sirji 



[Bregs] said:


> lol , oh dear you gave me heartfull laugh


please dont laugh at there state

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## Fireurimagination

Do you guys really believe Russia would jeopardise billions of dollars of business with India for selling 20 odd Su-35s to Pakistan? If Pakistan could afford them in big number (which it can't) then probably if could have been a different story. Money talks simple

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## Knight Rider

One Squadron of 25 Fighter Jets will be enough........


Seriously LOOK at this Beauty......


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## PurpleButcher

Indian Claims:-

1> Russia will jeopardize its relations with India if SU 35 deal goes through

Reply:- Yes Indians will not like it. But, rather a very big BUT, it would be impossible for INDIA to stop doing business with Russia because of the already huge percentage of Russian weapons which require spare parts, maintenance and upgrades which can be provided by none other than Russia. India has no option but to do business with Russia though with a heavy heart may be.

2> India will be pushed towards west i.e., Europe/ USA for weapons etc
Reply:- Well, India since its economy has improved has been leaning towards west and with the MMRCA fiasco it became evident to the Russians that India will opt a western based platform as compared to a Russian one ,subject to availability of a quality weapon system form the west. So Just like a good customer, India is buying the best weapons form where ever it can get. There are no loyal customers, everyone wants to get the best possible deal regardless wheteher it comes form fiji, russia, france or uncle sam. So Indians must stop acting as if after this deal we will stop purchasing Russian weapons. You already didn't opt Russia for MMRCA and same will be the case sometimes in the future also. This is not nail in the coffin scenario.

3> Wait till Modi's December visit to Russia
Reply:- Ok. We are waiting.

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## PurpleButcher

Indian Claims:-

1> Russia will jeopardize its relations with India if SU 35 deal goes through

Reply:- Yes Indians will not like it. But, rather a very big BUT, it would be impossible for INDIA to stop doing business with Russia because of the already huge percentage of Russian weapons which require spare parts, maintenance and upgrades which can be provided by none other than Russia. India has no option but to do business with Russia though with a heavy heart may be.

2> India will be pushed towards west i.e., Europe/ USA for weapons etc
Reply:- Well, India since its economy has improved has been leaning towards west and with the MMRCA fiasco it became evident to the Russians that India will opt a western based platform as compared to a Russian one ,subject to availability of a quality weapon system form the west. So Just like a good customer, India is buying the best weapons form where ever it can get. There are no loyal customers, everyone wants to get the best possible deal regardless wheteher it comes form fiji, russia, france or uncle sam. So Indians must stop acting as if after this deal we will stop purchasing Russian weapons. You already didn't opt Russia for MMRCA and same will be the case sometimes in the future also. This is not nail in the coffin scenario.

3> Wait till Modi's December visit to Russia
Reply:- Ok. We are waiting.

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## nadeemkhan110

*How many Su-35 we should buy?* 
The total price for the 48 fighters will be US$1.58 billion, sources told the newspaper. Konstantin Makiyenko, an analyst from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow, said this is the largest deal between UAC and the defense ministry this year, since the air force may not purchase additional Su-30SM fighters and Su-34 tactical bombers in near future.
source:
PLA must pay double Russian Air Force's price for Su-35 fighter｜WCT


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## SP!TF!R3

MilSpec said:


> Nor India is getting F35's




This part,I'm not so sure..INS Vishal may get F-35C.There is also speculation about F-35B which can be flown from our future LPD/Light AC..but I'm quite sure that Pakistan is not going to get or can't afford SU-35 of any significant number due to its prohibited cost as a 4++ gen aircraft.I pointed out that late batches of SU-30 MKI cost us nearly $100 mil a piece.Is Pakistan ready to spend more than that???They couldn't even buy JF-17s in good number,8 years after "Induction"..

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## shah1398

Sulman Badshah said:


> Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.



Russians are masters of diplomacy. They exactly know when and where to hit. Its not the very first time they are (i would use the word) antagonizing India but it has happened many times when India went against its interests. Like was the case when Russia called a joint naval exercise with India Navy when Russia's contender for MMRCA was shown light of the day off the MMRCA. Hence proved that *there are no permanent foes or friends in IR but only interests.*


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## Fireurimagination

PurpleButcher said:


> Indian Claims:-
> 
> 1> Russia will jeopardize its relations with India if SU 35 deal goes through
> 
> Reply:- Yes Indians will not like it. But, rather a very big BUT, it would be impossible for INDIA to stop doing business with Russia because of the already huge percentage of Russian weapons which require spare parts, maintenance and upgrades which can be provided by none other than Russia. India has no option but to do business with Russia though with a heavy heart may be.



It's not about the deals in the past, it's about the future acquisitions. Although India has started purchasing for the west and Israel but Russia still is a major supplier to Indian armed forces with joint production of hardware etc and will remain so. I don't think they would want Indian business of billions of dollars to go elsewhere

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## PurpleButcher

Fireurimagination said:


> It's not about the deals in the past, it's about the future acquisitions. Although India has started purchasing for the west and Israel but Russia still is a major supplier to Indian armed forces with joint production of hardware etc and will remain so. I don't think they would want Indian business of billions of dollars to go elsewhere



You have clearly overlooked Russian point of view. Yes the Russian won't want indian business to go somewhere but it has already started migrating to Israel and west. Why should Russian not diversify its customers when Indian has already diversified its weapons suppliers?

Moreover as an Indian member pointed out in the other thread of Su 35, there are a lot of projects going on with Russia which will be completed in future such as BrahMos, PakFA etc as mentioned in the following post. Do you really think because of few dozen fighter jets India will throw away its PAK FA and other future Russian acquisitions etc. I highly doubt that this will be a proportionate response from India. Do you think India will be willing to let go off PAK FA because of SU 35? 



Yaduveer said:


> Do you know how much these costs .. atleast *$200-250 Billion dollar* (equal to Pakistan's GDP), Russia don't have guts to throw them in dustbin for sake of couple of Heli and su35s
> 
> 
> _India and Russia have several major joint military programmes including:
> _
> 
> _BrahMos cruise missile programme_
> _5th generation fighter jet programme (This alone is worth of $35 billion dollar)_
> _Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme (230+ to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics)_
> _Ilyushin/HAL Tactical Transport Aircraft_
> _Additionally, India has purchased/leased various military hardware from Russia:
> _
> 
> _Kamov Ka-226 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative._
> _T-90S Bhishma with over 1000 to be built in India_
> _Akula-II nuclear submarine (2 to be leased with an option to buy when the lease expires)_
> _INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier programme_
> _Tu-22M3 bombers (4 ordered)_
> _US$900 million upgrade of MiG-29_
> _Mil Mi-17 (80 ordered)_
> _Ilyushin Il-76 Candid (6 ordered to fit Israeli Phalcon radar)_
> _The Farkhor Air Base in Tajikistan is currently jointly operated by Indian Air Force and Tajikistan Air Force._

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## Fireurimagination

PurpleButcher said:


> You have clearly overlooked Russian point of view. Yes the Russian won't want indian business to go somewhere but it has already started migrating to Israel and west. Why should Russian not diversify its customers when Indian has already diversified its weapons suppliers?
> 
> Moreover as an Indian member pointed out in the other thread of Su 35, there are a lot of projects going on with Russia which will be completed in future such as BrahMos, PakFA etc as mentioned in the following post. Do you really think because of few dozen fighter jets India will throw away its PAK FA and other future Russian acquisitions etc. I highly doubt that this will be a proportionate response from India. Do you think India will be willing to let go off PAK FA because of SU 35?



The same question can be asked the other way around, that whether because of few dozen fighter jets Russia will throw away a market like India? Well Russia could have sold Pakistan few Migs and India would have sulked and carried on but SU35s are a different story. You assume that Russia is so pissed about the fact that India has started to buy from Israel and the West that it will sell SU35s to Pakistan to teach India a lesson.

India and Russian are still jointly developing Brahmos, PAK FA etc, Russia is leasing nuclear subs to India etc, the military hardware trade still runs in to millions if not billions of dollars, so I don't think the relations are deteriorated to that extent and if the relations are still strong then Russia will surely have to keep Indian sensitivities in mind

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## aliyusuf

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *How many Su-35 we should buy?*
> The total price for the 48 fighters will be US$1.58 billion, sources told the newspaper. Konstantin Makiyenko, an analyst from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow, said this is the largest deal between UAC and the defense ministry this year, since the air force may not purchase additional Su-30SM fighters and Su-34 tactical bombers in near future.
> source:
> PLA must pay double Russian Air Force's price for Su-35 fighter｜WCT



Lets not jump the gun here.

The Su-35 is truly a very good fighter. Some talks on a possible sale most likely took place. Hence the news. Even the Russian Ambassador to India didn't say there were no such talks. What he said was that the news was an overstatement. Which may have been to placate the media outburst over the news. However it is absolutely too early to predict whether all this will end up in an actual deal. Things don't happen that way. These are long drawn processes and anything can happen.

So first, lets see how this pans out and not be hasty and count our chickens before they hatch.

Personally I really do like this plane and the PAF have always been missing an Air Superiority Fighter and this fighter is not only that but it is also an excellent strike fighter.

Also I would like to point out that some fellow members are saying that the Chinese Su-27/30 derivatives are also a very good option (J-11D especially). Well the problem, in my humble opinion, is that there is a bit of bad blood between Russia and China on the issue of China reverse engineering the Su-27/30 family ... and there is a tacit agreement that China won't export those fighters.


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## PurpleButcher

Fireurimagination said:


> Well Russia could have sold Pakistan few Migs and India would have sulked and carried on but SU35s are a different story. You assume that Russia is so pissed about the fact that India has started to buy from Israel and the West that it will sell SU35s to Pakistan to teach India a lesson.



Why do you think its about teaching India a lesson? Why can't it not be about just finding a customer for one of the best fighter jets that you produce and ignoring or pacifying the insecurities of your old (but recently diversified) business partner simultaneously? 

As far as the threat to Indian security is concerned, Russia already supplies top end weapons to China so from Russian POV it doesn't care if the weapons are going into an anti Indian nation.


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## Fireurimagination

PurpleButcher said:


> Why do you think its about teaching India a lesson? Why can't it not be about just finding a customer for one of the best fighter jets that you produce and ignoring or pacifying the insecurities of your old (but recently diversified) business partner simultaneously?
> 
> As far as the threat to Indian security is concerned, Russia already supplies top end weapons to China so from Russian POV it doesn't care if the weapons are going into an anti Indian nation.



You probably don't understand the kind of relations that India and USSR (now Russia) has enjoyed over the years. If that relationship still exists then if times comes probably Russia itself will have to fly against there own SU35s. If Russia sells SU35s to Pakistan it will be a 360 degree turnaround in Indian Russian relations. Heck even France stopped selling Pakistan cutting edge tech (with no real history or strategic partnership with India) for a fraction of what Russia earns from India 

China is another story, as I said earlier Chinese have the dollars and it's probably the biggest market so it's a different story there

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## aliyusuf

Well according to most sources Su-35S has a much reduced RCS compared to the Su-30. I mean if MiG could reduce the RCS of MiG-29K to 1/4th of the standard MiG-29 then why couldn't Sukhoi do the same? Also here is a reference that I have found on the RCS of the Su-35 ...

Deagel: Su-35
Crew: 1
External Stations: 12
Number of Engines: 2
Service Life Flight Hours: 6,000
*Area
Radar Cross Section (RCS): 0.50 square meter (5,000 square cm)
Dimensions*
Height: 5.90 meter (19.4 foot)
Length: 21.9 meter (72 foot)
Main Gun Caliber: 30 millimeter
Wingspan: 15.3 meter (50 foot)
*G-load*
Max Maneuvering Load Factor: 9 g
*Performance*
Ceiling: 19,000 meter (62,336 foot)
Ferry Range: 4,500 kilometer (2,430 nautical mile)
Max Range: 3,600 kilometer (1,944 nautical mile)
Max Range at Sea Level: 1,580 kilometer
*Speed*
Cruise Speed: 1.20 mach (398 mps)
Top Speed at High Altitude: 2,500 kph (2.09 mach)
Top Speed at Sea Level: 1,400 kph (1.17 mach)
*Time*
Service Life: 30 year
Time Between Overhaul: 10 year
*Weight*
Fuel Load: 11,500 kilogram (25,353 pound)
Max Takeoff Thrust: 29,000 kilogram (63,933 pound)
Max Takeoff Weight: 34,500 kilogram (76,058 pound)
Operational Weight: 25,300 kilogram (55,776 pound)
Payload: 8,000 kilogram (17,637 pound)

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## Knight Rider

gau8av said:


> do it !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all through his career he saw it as big as a basketball anyway, eh ?



Yeah!!!! he saw it as big as a basketball but when Shoaib Akhtar came things changed.

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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Lets not jump the gun here.
> 
> The Su-35 is truly a very good fighter. Some talks on a possible sale most likely took place. Hence the news. Even the Russian Ambassador to India didn't say there were no such talks. What he said was that the news was an overstatement. Which may have been to placate the media outburst over the news. However it is absolutely too early to predict whether all this will end up in an actual deal. Things don't happen that way. These are long drawn processes and anything can happen.
> 
> So first, lets see how this pans out and not be hasty and count our chickens before they hatch.
> 
> Personally I really do like this plane and the PAF have always been missing an Air Superiority Fighter and this fighter is not only that but it is also an excellent strike fighter.
> 
> Also I would like to point out that some fellow members are saying that the Chinese Su-27/30 derivatives are also a very good option (J-11D especially). Well the problem, in my humble opinion, is that there is a bit of bad blood between Russia and China on the issue of China reverse engineering the Su-27/30 family ... and there is a tacit agreement that China won't export those fighters.


Its almost 100th time , you are trying your best to clear the minds & hearts of a Indian ?
If it wasn't cleared 99 times before , how would it will be done now ?


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## batmannow

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Majumdar
> September 14, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.
> 
> In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, *Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. *Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.
> 
> 
> *“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister* Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.
> 
> Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”
> 
> *An Edge for Pakistan?: *
> 
> *Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers,* but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.
> 
> *How Would India Respond?:*
> 
> However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase* 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France *after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.
> 
> If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.
> 
> Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:
> 
> There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.
> 
> *The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.* Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. *For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects).* The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted.
> 
> In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.
> 
> *"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters*," Carter had said at the time.
> 
> Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.
> 
> _Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for _The National Interest_. You can follow him on Twitter: _@DaveMajumdar_._


Indian military establishments , hardest media effort to send a clear message to RUSSIA that if they sell SU-35 to Pakistan ,India will throw its whole dam wallet to USA ?
Will that stop RUSSIA ?no way !
Cause the whole world knows that well , AMERICA is in no position to match its own needs of F-35 & even its listed allies won't be getting a single pice of F-35 IN COMMING FUTURE let's say within next 5 to 7 years ?
But within that time ,Russia can give Pakistan at least a few sqd ?
This stupid media long shot has exposed India ,s long kept weakness ?

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Indian military establishments , hardest media effort to send a clear message to RUSSIA that if they sell SU-35 to Pakistan ,India will throw its whole dam wallet to USA ?
> Will that stop RUSSIA ?no way !
> Cause the whole world knows that well , AMERICA is in no position to match its own needs of F-35 & even its listed allies won't be getting a single pice of F-35 IN COMMING FUTURE let's say within next 5 to 7 years ?
> But within that time ,Russia can give Pakistan at least a few sqd ?
> This stupid media long shot has exposed India ,s long kept weakness ?


now thats interesting but tell me dear sir do you realli think russia will risk its future protects with india to sell a few su-35s to pakistan when khair janne do

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## batmannow

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Majumdar
> September 14, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.
> 
> In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, *Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. *Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.
> 
> 
> *“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister* Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.
> 
> Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”
> 
> *An Edge for Pakistan?: *
> 
> *Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers,* but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.
> 
> *How Would India Respond?:*
> 
> However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase* 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France *after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.
> 
> If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.
> 
> Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:
> 
> There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.
> 
> *The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.* Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. *For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects).* The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted.
> 
> In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.
> 
> *"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters*," Carter had said at the time.
> 
> Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.
> 
> _Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for _The National Interest_. You can follow him on Twitter: _@DaveMajumdar_._


Indian military establishments , hardest media effort to send a clear message to RUSSIA that if they sell SU-35 to Pakistan ,India will throw its whole dam wallet to USA ?
Will that stop RUSSIA ?no way !
Cause the whole world knows that well , AMERICA is in no position to match its own needs of F-35 & even its listed allies won't be getting a single pice of F-35 IN COMMING FUTURE let's say within next 5 to 7 years ?
But within that time ,Russia can give Pakistan at least a few sqd ?
This stupid media long shot has exposed India ,s long kept weakness ?
& from now on words Pakistan ,Russia , China & even america will play the tango games with India taking out its whole dam wallet ?lolzz



GURU DUTT said:


> now thats interesting but tell me dear sir do you realli think russia will risk its future protects with india to sell a few su-35s to pakistan when khair janne do


What risks Russia has from india ?to its future ,if its sells the SU 35 to Pakistan ?
I mean, this whole risks calculations are mostly Indian mind set ,which was dented by Russian FM s statement on the issue ?
If they were so affraid , would they be giving these kind of open statment ?
Think before what you post ?lolzzz


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> What risks Russia has from india ?to its future ,if its sells the SU 35 to Pakistan ?
> I mean, this whole risks calculations are mostly Indian mind set ,which was dented by Russian FM s statement on the issue ?
> If they were so affraid , would they be giving these kind of open statment ?
> Think before what you post ?lolzzz



thats because russia wants india to buy its su-35s + armata tanks + amur subs among many other things so the best way for that in todays world is innovative use of "corporate trolling" if you know what i mean


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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Its almost 100th time , you are trying your best to clear the minds & hearts of a Indian ?
> If it wasn't cleared 99 times before , how would it will be done now ?



I am trying to set the right perspective for Indians and Pakistanis both. We seem to have gone totally overboard on this. Over-exuberance on one side and emotion driven trolling on the other side. I may try a couple times more ... I am a pragmatist by nature.


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## Archie

One of the advantage of a Right wing Government is that matters of National Security are given a priority.

If you really think that their Wont be a reaction to a Pakistanis purchase of the Su35, then you are wrong.
India Doesn't really care about Mi35 mainly because we consider them obsolete as compared to Apaches 
Su35 is a different story
If Russia sells them to pak, then it can say goodbye to the order of 127 PAKFA/FGFA

Now here's the question
Will Russia risk a 25 Billion Fighter contract for a 3 Billion Contract with Pak

Their is also an ongoing contract for 3 improved Talwar class Frigates worth 2 Billion USD and an 8 Billion Contract for SSKs where Russia is facing off against the Germans and French.
Each and every contract will be jeopardized if Russia sells Su35 to pak

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> thats because russia wants india to buy its su-35s + armata tanks + amur subs among many other things so the best way for that in todays world is innovative use of "corporate trolling" if you know what i mean


No thy don't want actually they are really pi$$$ed off on India since its nuclear contract to USA ?
Now Russia has the biggest investor of this world who won't even think to get a pin from USA in comming next 30 years ?
You will see , Russia will play the same game what USA played with Pakistan in 90s ?
By delaying the projects in hands with India & by increasing the prices of anything India wants to buy ?
India has become a target ?lolzz



Archie said:


> One of the advantage of a Right wing Government is that matters of National Security are given a priority.
> 
> If you really think that their Wont be a reaction to a Pakistanis purchase of the Su35, then you are wrong.
> India Doesn't really care about Mi35 mainly because we consider them obsolete as compared to Apaches
> Su35 is a different story
> If Russia sells them to pak, then it can say goodbye to the order of 127 PAKFA/FGFA
> 
> Now here's the question
> Will Russia risk a 25 Billion Fighter contract for a 3 Billion Contract with Pak
> 
> Their is also an ongoing contract for 3 improved Talwar class Frigates worth 2 Billion USD and an 8 Billion Contract for SSKs where Russia is facing off against the Germans and French.
> Each and every contract will be jeopardized if Russia sells Su35 to pak


Russia not cares 25 billions going out from its pocket but it cares Chinese hundreds of billions going back to China ?
India is not hundered miles closer to China with the money ? Right ?say yes !lolzz


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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> I am trying to set the right perspective for Indians and Pakistanis both. We seem to have gone totally overboard on this. Over-exuberance on one side and emotion driven trolling on the other side. I may try a couple times more ... I am a pragmatist by nature.


Friend ,
You are just ignoring the mind set of both nations , if they had good mature more political minds , we would have spending our money on mutual beneficial projects & would have made ourselves a power by ourselves ?


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> No thy don't want actually they are really pi$$$ed off on India since its nuclear contract to USA ?
> Now Russia has the biggest investor of this world who won't even think to get a pin from USA in comming next 30 years ?
> You will see , Russia will play the same game what USA played with Pakistan in 90s ?
> By delaying the projects in hands with India & by increasing the prices of anything India wants to buy ?
> India has become a target ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Russia not cares 25 billions going out from its pocket but it cares Chinese hundreds of billions going back to China ?
> India is not hundered miles closer to China with the money ? Right ?say yes !lolzz


well even if i agree with all the rosy pictures you want to beleve questuion is and bottom line is russia still in deals with india well over 25 billion as pre you which according to my sources are much much more .... in short whu will russia give away all that (two birds in hand are better than four in the bush) as for china russia was always selling its latest stuff to china even china was biggest buyer of flankers before india went for flankers and how does china buying wepons from russia helps pakistani cause to buy su-35s


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> well even if i agree with all the rosy pictures you want to beleve questuion is and bottom line is russia still in deals with india well over 25 billion as pre you which according to my sources are much much more .... in short whu will russia give away all that (two birds in hand are better than four in the bush) as for china russia was always selling its latest stuff to china even china was biggest buyer of flankers before india went for flankers and how does china buying wepons from russia helps pakistani cause to buy su-35s


China is not only the largest buyer of Russian weapons but it is the biggest partner in all of projects ?
Be more knowledgeable pls ?
Go and Google the investment of Chinese in Russia you will be astonished ?
Russia don't consider , India as its strategic partner any more ?
It sees INDIA more of kind of opposition , back by USA to counter China ?
its mighty super rich brother ?lolzz
So for India , accept China ,s power & its strategic role as the next super power & bow down then , stop aggression against Pakistan & be friendly towards it , by accepting Kashmir problem & sort it out as UN will ?
If India is ready to do it , Pakistan don't need SU-35s & Russia will be more keen towards you ?lolzz

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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Friend ,
> You are just ignoring the mind set of both nations , if they had good mature more political minds , we would have spending our money on mutual beneficial projects & would have made ourselves a power by ourselves ?



You are right.

But, do we stop trying because they are slow to change their mindsets? At least by trying, even though they may not change, we can help regress the descent of their thinking towards more negativity and jingoism.

Just my humble opinion.

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## airmarshal

VelocuR said:


> We know USA is not willing to sell F-35 to Pakistan but what if Pakistan get F-35, is this better option than Su-35? What's difference between them?
> 
> Skinny Su-35 (two engines)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pregnant F-35 (one engine)



Or you can say Su-35 after delivery while F-35 is obese having too many McDonalds with fries and large soda. lol. 

Bhai, you can feel the burn and I can smell it in Indian members. India buyingF-35 will be like negotiations for 20 years. F-35 is not a mature product yet. There are too many flaws in it. If you have read reports about its capabilities and performance.

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> China is not only the largest buyer of Russian weapons but it is the biggest partner in all of projects ?
> Be more knowledgeable pls ?
> Go and Google the investment of Chinese in Russia you will be astonished ?
> Russia don't consider , India as its strategic partner any more ?
> It sees INDIA more of kind of opposition , back by USA to counter China ?
> its mighty super rich brother ?lolzz


ok sir even if i agree to what you just said how does chinas growing repute/relations with russia neutralieses indian relations with russia and help pakistan get Su-35 

in short why will russia sacrifice all its deals with india just because it is also dealing with china ..... baat samjh me ayyee ki nahi

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## airmarshal

batmannow said:


> China is not only the largest buyer of Russian weapons but it is the biggest partner in all of projects ?
> Be more knowledgeable pls ?
> Go and Google the investment of Chinese in Russia you will be astonished ?
> Russia don't consider , India as its strategic partner any more ?
> It sees INDIA more of kind of opposition , back by USA to counter China ?
> its mighty super rich brother ?lolzz
> So for India , accept China ,s power & its strategic role as the next super power & bow down then , stop aggression against Pakistan & be friendly towards it , by accepting Kashmir problem & sort it out as UN will ?
> If India is ready to do it , Pakistan don't need SU-35s & Russia will be more keen towards you ?lolzz



You are wrong here. According to Indians, Russia will be dead if India takes its money out.

Indians need Russia more but in their idiotic jingoism, they forget this fact.

For a fact, China has liquid cash in trillions of dollars India can only dream to match.



aakash_2410 said:


> First of this is a fantasy and if I tried to counter these arguments or suggest how IAF will be better equipped and has better plans. You'd open your nuclear umbrella.



Yes very good plans. We can see that already in the Rafale deal. 10 years still no planes.

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## Dalit

aakash_2410 said:


> lol I liked your post for the sheer entertainment value of it.
> 
> Again first of all, war is not even a remote possibility, maybe limited surgical strikes. To which Pakistani establishment will never reply with all out nuclear war because of the concepts called 'proportionality' and 'rationale' but let's just hypothetically say that some Pakistani general got his hands on tactical nukes or even worse you got yours hands on them you initiated 'Full Spectrum Deterrence' do you even realise the response? And let's say India doesn't use nukes like toys but still have you heard of something called Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme?



If you think that missiles and nukes are toys or entertainment it is all up to you. I know that it is a dead serious matter and very devastating. I hope you never have to find out the hard way.

Having said that, this is all I have to say in response to your rhetoric. There is never going to be a war between India and Pakistan. The nukes are ultimately the stalemate factor. No amount of Su-35's, F-35's etc. can ever change this fact.


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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> You are right.
> 
> But, do we stop trying because they are slow to change their mindsets? At least by trying, even though they may not change, we can help regress the descent of their thinking towards more negativity and jingoism.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.


Its a huge problem , India is in super power complex which was feuled by America that it can crossover China or at least can compete with China ?
Its a poisonous idea , which only was injected to stop Chinese influence in 90s ?
Things changed in China ,s favour since then , % because of that stupid idea , India looks Pakistan the last rock in its way to glory ?
The whole religious based political parties , boom in India was financed by CIA , through Indian military,s hidden collaboration with CIA ?
cause that's what will bring the charging fuel in India to keep in competition ?
YOUR TRIES are to small & the opposite powers are to strong , better we match fire with fire & poison with poison cause its the only cure we been sent ?

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## batmannow

airmarshal said:


> You are wrong here. According to Indians, Russia will be dead if India takes its money out.
> 
> Indians need Russia more but in their idiotic jingoism, they forget this fact.
> 
> For a fact, China has liquid cash in trillions of dollars India can only dream to match.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes very good plans. We can see that already in the Rafale deal. 10 years still no planes.


I have pointed that out to them , but still they are not getting down from their stupid MARs ?lolzz



GURU DUTT said:


> ok sir even if i agree to what you just said how does chinas growing repute/relations with russia neutralieses indian relations with russia and help pakistan get Su-35
> 
> in short why will russia sacrifice all its deals with india just because it is also dealing with china ..... baat samjh me ayyee ki nahi


& you think INDIA will stop all its relations with Russia ?
Really ?lolzz 
After that just imagine whole Indian air force ,navay ,, even your tank divisions will be just a sitting duck to Pakistanis with no spares & supplies ?lolzz
Really can India affords it ?
Friend , sadly India is in no position to tell Russia what to do ?
Its indias turn to sitting down ,& have diet coke & watch few SU-35 flying in Pakistani skies?lolzz


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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Its a huge problem , India is in super power complex which was feuled by America that it can crossover China or at least can compete with China ?
> Its a poisonous idea , which only was injected to stop Chinese influence in 90s ?
> Things changed in China ,s favour since then , % because of that stupid idea , India looks Pakistan the last rock in its way to glory ?
> The whole religious based political parties , boom in India was financed by CIA , through Indian military,s hidden collaboration with CIA ?
> cause that's what will bring the charging fuel in India to keep in competition ?
> YOUR TRIES are to small & the opposite powers are to strong , better we match fire with fire & poison with poison cause its the only cure we been sent ?



Like I stated before ... I am a pragmatist. I believe that great things have small beginnings. If we contribute in our own small way, in any which way we can, we may eventually end up being part of something big. The trouble with fighting fire with fire is that, although the fire is eventually extinguished, it leaves behind destruction in its wake. That would be a sorry epitaph for our nation and for the rest of the sub-continent.


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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Like I stated before ... I am pragmatist. I believe that great things have small beginnings. If we contribute in our own small way, in any which way we can, we may eventually end up being part of something big. The trouble with fighting fire with fire is that, although the fire is eventually extinguished, it leaves behind destruction in its wake. That would be a sorry epitaph for our nation and for the rest of the sub-continent.


Friend ,
Pakistani or Indian states are not being runing by your pragmatism ?right ?
So , all of your nobel efforts are just waste of time for you & us ?
That's not that time , wait for that god knows when but wait till some water gets under the bridge ?


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> I have pointed that out to them , but still they are not getting down from their stupid MARs ?lolzz
> 
> 
> & you think INDIA will stop all its relations with Russia ?
> Really ?lolzz
> After that just imagine whole Indian air force ,navay ,, even your tank divisions will be just a sitting duck to Pakistanis with no spares & supplies ?lolzz
> Really can India affords it ?
> Friend , sadly India is in no position to tell Russia what to do ?
> Its indias turn to sitting down ,& have diet coke & watch few SU-35 flying in Pakistani skies?lolzz


that is the point i was making just because russia has buisness interests with china india is not cutting off with russia and vice versa 

so that was china and russia and india equation you still dint tell me how it helps pakistans quest for su-35s ...cuase of all that hokus phokus russia doesnt beleves in charity or soft loans mumbo jumbo like USA or china..... in russian market money talk bull**** walks .... hope you know what i mean this time sirji

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> that is the point i was making just because russia has buisness interests with china india is not cutting off with russia and vice versa
> 
> so that was china and russia and india equation you still dint tell me how it helps pakistans quest for su-35s ...cuase of all that hokus phokus russia doesnt beleves in charity or soft loans mumbo jumbo like USA or china..... in russian market money talk bull**** walks .... hope you know what i mean this time sirji


China will support it all , cause it belives in strong Pakistan will strike first to its worst enemy in any situation of war ?
&, it will be India vs Pakistan ,, which even if India survives ,, China will capture that tiny little remaining India in blink ?lolzz
Pakistan getting SU-35 or even 37s , is Chinese idea ! Itself ?lolzz


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## Albatross

GURU DUTT said:


> thats because russia wants india to buy its su-35s + armata tanks + amur subs among many other things so the best way for that in todays world is innovative use of "corporate trolling" if you know what i mean


 
Even if your line of troll is accepted then its clear Russia is not letting you slip into EU and US easily so india has two options Russia or west that's what Moscow is telling you clearly and the fact India operates mostly Russian machines and needs their spare parts for decades Russia is in a better position to dictate their terms and if you guys feel they will be easy on you because of your future development agreements with you that's pure day dreaming without knowing who you are dealing with.
Nemtsov's report: Russia spent over $40 billion on war with Ukraine - Charter'97 :: News from Belarus - Belarusian News - Republic of Belarus - Minsk
So how much is the worth of your agreements with Moscow Baby??

Their only concern regarding Ukraine was they were not willing to let it slip into west hands and same is the case with India for Russia India is nothing more than a hen laying dollar eggs so now if you will give your eggs to someone else they will do all in their hands to deter you and in the end as is my reading India is now forced into western hands by Israel Russia will have to make her balance by allying herself with Pakistan and its not only SU 35 it would be a long list and in our favor economically.

Russians are more like pathan and Sikhs they do what they feel like doing irrespective of outcome / Financial aspects and Ukraine is the example .

India and her foreign policy is in shit under modi I can only offer my condolences at your situation.

Anyways for Pakistan its a win win if India goes west we get Russia and if Russia stops you guys our relations with west will improve steadily but in any way Indian reputation internationally has taken a big hit by MMRCA and recent veiled Russian threats.

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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Friend ,
> Pakistani or Indian states are not being runing by your pragmatism ?right ?
> So , all of your nobel efforts are just waste of time for you & us ?
> That's not that time , wait for that god knows when but wait till some water gets under the bridge ?



I am just interested in breaching the gap between general people of both sides. The members of this forum are by and large from the respective general public of both sides. I am ok with both sides support their respective countries without being jingoistic. We can have healthy and heated exchange of views and debates without acrimony and score settlings. Learn more about each other and do away with the stereo types and prejudices that are being spread through the media.

Apart from that I am not a turn your other cheek sort of a person. I am not a pacifist in the face of bullying or intimidation. What is happening at the country to country level at the moment has gotten me all riled up. *In that arena* *I say bring it on!*


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## GURU DUTT

Albatross said:


> Even if your line of troll is accepted then its clear Russia is not letting you slip into EU and US easily so india has two options Russia or west that's what Moscow is telling you clearly and the fact India operates mostly Russian machines and needs their spare parts for decades they are in a better position to dictate their terms and if you guys feel they will be easy on you because of your future development agreements with you that's pure day dreaming without knowing who you are dealing with.
> Nemtsov's report: Russia spent over $40 billion on war with Ukraine - Charter'97 :: News from Belarus - Belarusian News - Republic of Belarus - Minsk
> So how much is the worth of your agreements with Moscow Baby??
> 
> Their only concern regarding Ukraine was they were not willing to let it slip into west hands and same is the case with India for Russia India is nothing more than a hen laying dollar eggs so now if you will give your eggs to someone else they will do all in their hands to deter you and in the end as is my reading India is now forced into western hands by Israel Russia will have to make her balance by allying herself with Pakistan and its not only SU 35 it would be a long list and in our favor economically.
> 
> Russians are more like pathan and Sikhs they do what they feel like doing irrespective of outcome and Ukraine is the example .
> 
> 
> Anyways for Pakistan its a win win if India goes west we get Russia and if Russia stops you guys our relations with west will improve steadily but in any way Indian reputation internationally has taken a big hit by MMRCA and recent Russian veiled threats.


even so called "west" and russia knows that we are not going to break of with russia or anyone else just becuase of them we never did that and we even today wont do that no matter what and even russia and USA knows this fact too very well 

now the thing is how does it helps pakistani cuase to get russian cutting edge hardware ? 

bieng a friend with russia doesnt means bieng a enemy of west or vice versa as per indias forign policy and good you mentioned ukrine do you think russia gonna forget indian stand on that when west wanted us to do otherwise ... what changed did we dropped russian interests for sake of so called "west"

think about it 



batmannow said:


> China will support it all , cause it belives in strong Pakistan will strike first to its worst enemy in any situation of war ?
> &, it will be India vs Pakistan ,, which even if India survives ,, China will capture that tiny little remaining India in blink ?lolzz
> Pakistan getting SU-35 or even 37s , is Chinese idea ! Itself ?lolzz


so in short you are proud of the fact that your nation which was first used and discarded by the west for its quest against USSR now is ready to that yet again = bieng a china "friend" to harm indian intersts this time 

man you guys are so emotional and predictable and thats the main reason no powerfull nation takes your cause serouslli even after you are prepaired to go any lenths to proove it and that too often at your own nations interests 

now lets talk about china do you realli think chinas orignal policy is to hurt indian interests to get the top slot here 

lolzz they are already on the top slot here not because they used pakistan to harm indian interests but becuase of there own dedication and hard work but looks like you dont want to look at it thru that angle 

no issues but make no mistake china is not the type of nation that will put all it got thru all that hard work and dedication just to teach india a lesson and help pakistan ... but there is no harm in dreaming .... keep doing it rather it makes owr job pretty easy

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## Albatross

GURU DUTT said:


> even so called "west" and russia knows that we are not going to break of with russia or anyone else just becuase of them we never did that and we even today wont do that no matter what and even russia and USA knows this fact too very well
> 
> now the thing is how does it helps pakistani cuase to get russian cutting edge hardware ?
> 
> bieng a friend with russia doesnt means bieng a enemy of west or vice versa as per indias forign policy and good you mentioned ukrine do you think russia gonna forget indian stand on that when west wanted us to do otherwise ... what changed did we dropped russian interests for sake of so called "west"
> 
> think about it


 
We are in 21st century and things have changed a lot now . India was in Russian block for decades which benefitted both nations one militarily and one economically today India wants to assure Russia that even if she buys weapons from west and US they would still be buying some from Russia so in this scenario India would be having a upper hand to choose what she likes but this is not how world works and you can pick up your history books if you have any to see what I mean.
Power is above money and Russia would not like to loose her influence on India and that too at the hands of her enemies. Though India badly wants things to work in the above mentioned way but Russian recent sales of helicopters to Pakistan and now this "slip" of tongue from their deputy foreign minister clearly shows their warnings to india now choice is yours but this dream of playing ball with both Russian and US,EU block would never materialize and I gave you the example of Crimea to give you a glimpse of Russian thinking they spent 40 billion on war directly and their over all losses including sanctions goes 100 billion plus just because they did what they felt was right.

India will have to choose one of them and under Israeli influence we know what the choice would be so there are bright chances of seeing SU 35 in Pak colors.

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## GURU DUTT

Albatross said:


> We are in 21st century and things have changed a lot now . India was in Russian block for decades which benefitted both nations one militarily and one economically today India wants to assure Russia that even if she buys weapons from west and US they would still be buying some from Russia so in this scenario India would be having a upper hand to choose what she likes but this is not how world works and you can pick up your history books if you have any to see what I mean.
> Power is above money and Russia would not like to loose her influence on India and that too at the hands of her enemies. Though India badly wants things to work in the above mentioned way but Russian recent sales of helicopters to Pakistan and now this "slip" of tongue from their deputy foreign minister clearly shows their warnings to india now choice is yours but this dream of playing ball with both Russian and US,EU block would never materialize and I gave you the example of Crimea to give you a glimpse of Russian thinking they spent 40 billion on war directly and their over all losses including sanctions goes 100 billion plus just because they did what they felt was right.
> 
> India will have to choose one of them and under Israeli influence we know what the choice would be so there are bright chances of seeing SU 35 in Pak colors.


in short : india doesnt chooses between its partners specially if other party wants it to be used against the third party .... sorry to burst your bubble but thats not owr policy and the main reason by both west and russia are in good terms with us and to get into such a position the first requiremnt is owr inner strenth and thats the main reason why inspite of bieng at logger heads with each other iran and israel , USA and russia, UAE/SA and iran , China and Japan/S korea all have good equations with us ..... we are basicalli like a baniya who delas with every kind of coustmer and supplier on merit rather than emotions or realtions ..... in short its all about buisness nothing personal about it .... hope you can understand that

but no one is stopping you from wrting indian foriegn policies orbetoury over this concept of india onli time will decide it ..... cheers mate

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## Kakaspai

Only time can solve this su35 issue


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## GURU DUTT

Kakaspai said:


> Only time can solve this su35 issue


not just time time and money if pakistan has money tommorow then it can buy whatever it chooses to from whoever it chooses it its a buyers market

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> in short : india doesnt chooses between its partners specially if other party wants it to be used against the third party .... sorry to burst your bubble but thats not owr policy and the main reason by both west and russia are in good terms with us and to get into such a position the first requiremnt is owr inner strenth and thats the main reason why inspite of bieng at logger heads with each other iran and israel , USA and russia, UAE/SA and iran , China and Japan/S korea all have good equations with us ..... we are basicalli like a baniya who delas with every kind of coustmer and supplier on merit rather than emotions or realtions ..... in short its all about buisness nothing personal about it .... hope you can understand that
> 
> but no one is stopping you from wrting indian foriegn policies orbetoury over this concept of india onli time will decide it ..... cheers mate


This time this banyaa has to make hard choices , give up its dhoti or its baiyaan ?
Its India ,s choice to pay mor to whom USA or RUSSIA Both I'll result in Pakistan getting SU-35 s ?lolzz
We are the so called left alone , suicidal patriots of great PAK?
no one likes us , but we are here to make sure that at least in every dam argument you go down ?
In reality you are getting down ?right ?sure ?lolz


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## Kakaspai

GURU DUTT said:


> not just time time and money if pakistan has money tommorow then it can buy whatever it chooses to from whoever it chooses it its a buyers market


And how do you know pakistan doesn't has money.Pakistan bought zulus on cash they bought hinds on cash.


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> not just time time and money if pakistan has money tommorow then it can buy whatever it chooses to from whoever it chooses it its a buyers market


Pakistan has its hard cash ,its our friendship with China , India just lost its friendship with Russia , cause it acted in very selfish bazari way ?
Now its Russia ,s turn to show India what means bazari thinking ?lolzz


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## Albatross

GURU DUTT said:


> in short : india doesnt chooses between its partners specially if other party wants it to be used against the third party .... sorry to burst your bubble but thats not owr policy and the main reason by both west and russia are in good terms with us and to get into such a position the first requiremnt is owr inner strenth and thats the main reason why inspite of bieng at logger heads with each other iran and israel , USA and russia, UAE/SA and iran , China and Japan/S korea all have good equations with us ..... we are basicalli like a baniya who delas with every kind of coustmer and supplier on merit rather than emotions or realtions ..... in short its all about buisness nothing personal about it .... hope you can understand that
> 
> but no one is stopping you from wrting indian foriegn policies orbetoury over this concept of india onli time will decide it ..... cheers mate


 
This is what I was implying Indians look everything through their baniya eyes but rest of the world doesn't always do that and especially Russia and the crimes proves my point . Only a dumb would accept 100 billion plus losses for a small piece of land but having majority Russian origin people . So if you think Russia will just keep singing Ramain because of the indian dollars you are wrong if you want to diversify your suppliers they want to diversify their buyers whats the problem then why your fellas come with their dollar claims proving how Russian economy depends on India thus they will not supply Pakistan with any lethal machines .

Your own argument nullifies the reasons you gave why Russia wont supply Pak with SU 35.

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> This time this banyaa has to make hard choices , give up its dhoti or its baiyaan ?
> Its India ,s choice to pay mor to whom USA or RUSSIA Both I'll result in Pakistan getting SU-35 s ?lolzz


well then i guess you still dont know anything about how a baniya works 

anyway good luck with your dreams to see india going down 



Albatross said:


> This is what I was implying Indians look everything through their baniya eyes but rest of the world doesn't always do that and especially Russia and the crimes proves my point . Only a dumb would accept 100 billion plus losses for a small piece of land but having majority Russian origin people . So if you think Russia will just keep singing Ramain because of the indian dollars you are wrong if you want to diversify your suppliers they want to diversify their buyers whats the problem then why your fellas come with their dollar claims proving how Russian economy depends on India thus they will not supply Pakistan with any lethal machines .
> 
> Your own argument nullifies the reasons you gave why Russia wont supply Pak with SU 35.


fact is india or for that matter no one can force russia to choose its coustmers it never realli cared about that ,,... first go and bring moeny for su-35s then see weather russia agrees to sell you or not till then its all speculations and sabre rattling with shadows 



Kakaspai said:


> And how do you know pakistan doesn't has money.Pakistan bought zulus on cash they bought hinds on cash.


well dont talk about past talk about present and future .... in short money ahi to honey hai

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## Imran Khan

yes but in 2032 both will be inducted hahahaha


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## Kakaspai

GURU DUTT said:


> well dont talk about past talk about present and future .... in short money ahi to honey hai


At first indians were like russia wont give you rd93.then they said you cant have hinds.they said we dont have money to buy zulus.how many times you want to be proved wrong.dont you get tired of being wrong.


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## GURU DUTT

Kakaspai said:


> At first indians were like russia wont give you rd93.then they said you cant have hinds.they said we dont have money to buy zulus.how many times you want to be proved wrong.dont you get tired of being wrong.


sirji in short money talks bull**** walks .... if tommorow you have moeny there is no power in the world that can stop you from buying what you intend to buy from russia provided russians are ok to sell it to you .... india or china doesnt realli matters ... onli thing that matters is money so good luck

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## Kakaspai

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji in short money talks bull**** walks .... if tommorow you have moeny there is no power in the world that can stop you from buying what you intend to buy from russia provided russians are ok to sell it to you .... india or china doesnt realli matters ... onli thing that matters is money so good luck


This is the frist reasonable post I have seen from you

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## GURU DUTT

Kakaspai said:


> This is the frist reasonable post I have seen from you

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## bdslph

the only disadvantage of the Su35 is it dont have stealth


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## Tameem

Can someone Translate this latest Piece of analysis on SU35
Cavok Brasil – Aviação e Fotografia - Su-35 para o Paquistão?


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## Parashu

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?

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## New World

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?


what did PAF buy from 2008?? So the money is there ..


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## Eagle Claw

RazorMC said:


> There were already segments in Washington that were willing to offer the F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project. What it would receive was the option to buy the aircraft once they became available and the option to manufacture certain components in India itself.
> 
> IAF was more interested in obtaining the Rafale under a ToT which would make it more manageable and financially viable in the long run.
> 
> Wrt Su-35, they are not on offer to Pakistan at this time. *Russia will not provide any hardware* that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.



Are you Russian Deputy FM ?
Are you Russian President ? 
Are you Russian Defence Minister ? 
Or Are Russians your Subordinate ?
Or Are Russians Answerable to you and will even Breath Oxygen when you will say ?


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## RazorMC

Eagle Claw said:


> Are you Russian Deputy FM ?
> Are you Russian President ?
> Are you Russian Defence Minister ?
> Or Are Russians your Subordinate ?
> Or Are Russians Answerable to you and will even Breath Oxygen when you will say ?


I am sorry for offending you sir.

Please go to Russia and buy all the Su-35 they are offering. I am sure you can buy them with your own pocket money. You are very rich and I'm just a poor Pakistani.

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## Super Falcon

Tipu7 said:


> You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............
> 
> 
> 
> 1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
> 2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan
> 
> These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................


Deal for mi 35 sugned where are u rd 93 engine already burning with JF 17 are u living in jungle

F 35 is very probleumetic for those who already ordered if india orders today it get in 10 years because 8 nation ordered 1000 of F 35 and still it is under development

As for SU 35 pak order today we get it in 6 months 

When india gets F 35 we get J 20

Yes i have feeling india mught go for F 35 but it is stupid more piwerfull T 50 it has easy acces but IAF lower the order figure of T 50


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## Eagle Claw

RazorMC said:


> I am sorry for offending you sir.
> 
> Please go to Russia and buy all the Su-35 they are offering. I am sure you can buy them with your own pocket money. You are very rich and I'm just a poor Pakistani.



Well Keeping eye on others Pocket's is the sign of a Person Being a Cheapster.
Anyways one thing I must tell you, Never Ever Underestimate the Depth of the Pocket of Pakistanis 
Again, what ever we will buy what ever we will not, its none of your concern. No one is either answerable to you nor anyone is your Subordinate 
An advice for you : Control the Panic thats propogating like a Pain in Back, Among your Nation.
Cheers !


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## RazorMC

Eagle Claw said:


> Well Keeping eye on others Pocket's is the sign of a Person Being a Cheapster.
> Anyways one think I must tell you, Never Ever Underestimate the Depth of the Pocket of Pakistanis
> Again, what ever we will buy what ever we will not, its none of your concern. No one is either answerable to you nor anyone is your Subordinate
> An advice for you : Control the Panic thats propogating like a Pain in Back, Among your Nation.
> Cheers !


If you had read some of my posts instead of hopping around on the keyboard, you'd have realized I'm a Pakistani.
Cheers to you O mighty, wealthy king.


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## Eagle Claw

RazorMC said:


> If you had read some of my posts instead of hopping around on the keyboard, you'd have realized I'm a Pakistani.
> Cheers to you O mighty, wealthy king.



Well know one here knows what you are or from where you are. May be an Indian Operating id from Across the broader to spray chaos among people, an Agent or anything else. Only God Knows. 
Who ever you are, The message is loud and clear for you and others. 
Thanks . . .


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## Last Samuri

So will have to put up with this SU35 nonsense for at least another week I guess

UNTIL some sane sensible mod closes it has ANOTHER RIDICULIOUS waste of bandwidth.

To continue the fun a question to Pakistanis

How many you buying
What you paying
Contract date
Delivery date

VERY KEEN TO HEAR


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## Tipu7

Super Falcon said:


> Deal for mi 35 sugned where are u rd 93 engine already burning with JF 17 are u living in jungle



Re-read my post.
You are picking wrong sense


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## abdulbarijan

Last Samuri said:


> So will have to put up with this SU35 nonsense for at least another week I guess
> 
> UNTIL some sane sensible mod closes it has ANOTHER RIDICULIOUS waste of bandwidth.
> 
> To continue the fun a question to Pakistanis
> 
> How many you buying
> What you paying
> Contract date
> Delivery date
> 
> VERY KEEN TO HEAR



You don't have to put up with anything ... there is a button to close the site/browser/phone/computer etc.. The problem is this is a Pakistani forum, and in a Pakistani forum ... with a dedicated section to Pakistani airforce .. we Pakistanis will discuss Pakistani stuff ... be it rumors / inside news whatever ... 

Many people from our side including myself are looking at this through the spectacles of skepticism ... but the point is -- there was no news given from the PAF side ... niether denial nor confirmation .... the news surfaced around the time where MMRCA of India shortlisted Rafale and there were news of Russians "experts" suggesting that Mig-35 should be presented to Pakistan for a possible purchase ... infact it was also covered here...
Russia experts suggest to sell MiG-35 to Pakistan

There were rumors going around, in the mean time ... Ilya Kranik came up with the Pakistan being a potential buyer of SU-35 .. Then we have the FM of Russia talking about the negotiations etc. So don't "Doo doo" all over stuff that was never even started from our side ... we're merely discussing the little flairs your supposed "best friend" keeps on releasing ... so chill 
https://defence.pk/threads/russia-experts-suggest-to-sell-mig-35-to-pakistan.107845/

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## war&peace

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Please someone tell me how are we going to pay for the SU-35?


with credit card . I think we have enough money to buy 4-5 squadrons. Just try to frog out some money from corrupt politicians.


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> well then i guess you still dont know anything about how a baniya works
> 
> anyway good luck with your dreams to see india going down
> 
> 
> fact is india or for that matter no one can force russia to choose its coustmers it never realli cared about that ,,... first go and bring moeny for su-35s then see weather russia agrees to sell you or not till then its all speculations and sabre rattling with shadows
> 
> 
> well dont talk about past talk about present and future .... in short money ahi to honey hai


We did it in kargill , & we I'll do it just keep lookin at our moves ?
Will you be a man instead a troll & the day Pakistan gets its frist $U 35 , You stop posting your shyt ? $ay you lost ?lolzxx


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## Eagle Claw

Last Samuri said:


> So will have to put up with this SU35 nonsense for at least another week I guess
> 
> UNTIL some sane sensible mod closes it has ANOTHER RIDICULIOUS waste of bandwidth.
> 
> To continue the fun a question to Pakistanis
> 
> How many you buying
> What you paying
> Contract date
> Delivery date
> 
> VERY KEEN TO HEAR



Dude !
You are Freaky Mad Genius !
You know that your Bandwidth have been wasted but you are still wondering here ? 

Regarding Your Questions : 

1) How many you buying
*None of Your Concern*
2) What you paying
*Why Are you So much Interested ?*
3) Contract date
*None of Your Concern*
4) Delivery date
*Why Are you So much Interested ?*
*
We are not bound to present you details or to answer you. No one is your subordinate here. 
Thanks  *

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## R@m-R@heem

war&peace said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but Russia has offered to Pakistan...and more disappoints are coming india's way in near future



But buying this jet is not economically viable for pakistan.. given the established fact that russia won't jeopardise its relations with india (provided india objects, which it will.. if this report is considered true) to sell a few (24-36) jets to paf. 
Why i think that it is not feasible is cz pakistan has never operated an heavy class fighter bomber, neither has it operated a twin engine fighter, and inducting a su35 will require a major change in the war fighting doctrine that paf has gotten used to in all these years. and a doctrine shift is not smthing that is done with a small number of fighter inductions. 
Su-35 is a very potent platform, and a possible shot in the paf's arm, no doubt, but the fact is that, it is nothing but russians idea of sending multiple messages with a single statement of intent... To Americans (and the West), it communicates that, putting sanctions on Russian will "force" them to sell potent weapons platforms to nations, that the NATO is getting weary off (Present offer to pakistan, S-300 systems to iran, etc), To Pakistan, they wish to communicate an airy dream of the possibilities they can be privy to, if they leave the American Camp and become the market for russian military hardware. And most importantly, i think this message is to the Modi govt, which is getting too close to the west, that Russia is not thier kitty. 
In Reality, however, this message says that the Russians are facing the economic heat of the sanctions imposed by the west, and seduces india to invests in the FGFA program, and do so quick. as they alone cant lift the weight of the $50 + Billion project. ( and india is the only country which can support it financially.. korea will only go for small numbers- off the shelf purchase.. that too in the near future)
all in all, The economic viability on part of pakistan was always evident - reasons cited above (and pakistan's current economic posture)-.. besides, if Pakistan was to even accept such Offer, India would surely protest, and the russians would surely withdraw.. as they have in the past.. so Truly, but sadly, this Never was about pakistan!!


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## nadeemkhan110

aliyusuf said:


> Lets not jump the gun here.
> 
> The Su-35 is truly a very good fighter. Some talks on a possible sale most likely took place. Hence the news. Even the Russian Ambassador to India didn't say there were no such talks. What he said was that the news was an overstatement. Which may have been to placate the media outburst over the news. However it is absolutely too early to predict whether all this will end up in an actual deal. Things don't happen that way. These are long drawn processes and anything can happen.
> 
> So first, lets see how this pans out and not be hasty and count our chickens before they hatch.
> 
> Personally I really do like this plane and the PAF have always been missing an Air Superiority Fighter and this fighter is not only that but it is also an excellent strike fighter.
> 
> Also I would like to point out that some fellow members are saying that the Chinese Su-27/30 derivatives are also a very good option (J-11D especially). Well the problem, in my humble opinion, is that there is a bit of bad blood between Russia and China on the issue of China reverse engineering the Su-27/30 family ... and there is a tacit agreement that China won't export those fighters.


 agree with you and china is also very near to the deal to purchase 24 SU-35 but china happy with j-11D 

The J-11D Surprise: China Upgrades Russian Flanker Fighters On Its Own

In a surprise development, the J-11D "D1101" prototype flew its first flight on April 29, 2015. The J-11D is the latest in Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC)'s family fighters licensed and modified from the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 "Flanker." SAC has built well over 200 Su-27 and J-11s, such as the licensed produced J-11A and indigenously upgraded J-11B, which had better engines and radar, and a lighter airframe. It is possible that improvements from other Chinese Flanker variants, like the J-15 carrier fighter and J-16 strike fighter, have been applied to the J-11D.

*The J-11D's most noticeable upgrade is an upwardly canted radar dome, which carries an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, as well as further use of composites and stealth coatings in the fuselage to reduce weight. The fighter's Infrared Search and Tracking (IRST) pod has been relocated starboard of the cockpit, to accommodate a retractable inflight refueling (IFR) probe. The J-11D is also believed to have improved weapons hardpoints to carry the latest Chinese weapons, such as the PL-10 air to air missile, long range PL-21 missile and YJ-12 antiship missile.*

The J-11D's upgrades allow it to take full advantage of new PLAAF capabilities, and in turn, extend those capabilities further. For example, the IFR probe would enable aerial refueling from an Il-78 tanker, extending both the aerial patrol time and range of the fighter. The AESA radar offers key advantages over older, conventionally scanned radar; it's more resistant against electronic jamming, offers higher resolution when targetting stealthy aircraft, and has greater range. The J-11D's datalinks would enable it to share its radar data with other Chinese aircraft and ships. The J-11D's greater weapons payload would include long range weapons that could then be guided by other systems with longer ranged sensors, like the KJ-500 airborne early warning radar plane.

The J-11D's first flight is especially interesting given persistent rumors about impending Chinese purchases of the Su-35, the most modern Russian Flanker model. Ironically, the Su-35 uses a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar, which is an older and generally less flexible technology. Further flights like this indicate a shift is at hand, as advancing Chinese technology might be killing the Su-35's China sale chances.
The J-11D Surprise: China Upgrades Russian Flanker Fighters On Its Own | Popular Science

But the reality is The Su-35 is far more maneuverable than the J-11 that's why china need su-35
Why China’s Air Force Needs Russia’s SU-35 | The Diplomat

Despite the evident maturity of the J-11D program, the Chinese military nevertheless appears to also be going ahead with plans to purchase Russian Su-35 Flankers. The Su-35 is far more maneuverable than the J-11 – which gives the Russian jet an advantage in short-range dogfights – can fly longer distances, and can take off and land with a larger payload. It is also equipped with new avionics and new cockpit displays. However, its radar is a less advanced passive electronically scanned array (PESA) than the AESA system on the J-11D. Moreover, the aircraft and its systems will be manufactured abroad. The Chinese government views its indigenous defense industry as a strategic asset; purchasing more planes from Russia will not help advance Beijing’s goal of developing a mature, self-reliant aerospace industry. Given the apparent redundancy of moving forward with two very similar aircraft programs, some analysts speculate that the PLAAF’s primary motivation for buying the Su-35 may not be for its value as a weapons system but rather because it is equipped with advanced AL-117S turbofans.


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## war&peace

R@m-R@heem said:


> But buying this jet is not economically viable for pakistan.. given the established fact that russia won't jeopardise its relations with india (provided india objects, which it will.. if this report is considered true) to sell a few (24-36) jets to paf.
> Why i think that it is not feasible is cz pakistan has never operated an heavy class fighter bomber, neither has it operated a twin engine fighter, and inducting a su35 will require a major change in the war fighting doctrine that paf has gotten used to in all these years. and a doctrine shift is not smthing that is done with a small number of fighter inductions.
> Su-35 is a very potent platform, and a possible shot in the paf's arm, no doubt, but the fact is that, it is nothing but russians idea of sending multiple messages with a single statement of intent... To Americans (and the West), it communicates that, putting sanctions on Russian will "force" them to sell potent weapons platforms to nations, that the NATO is getting weary off (Present offer to pakistan, S-300 systems to iran, etc), To Pakistan, they wish to communicate an airy dream of the possibilities they can be privy to, if they leave the American Camp and become the market for russian military hardware. And most importantly, i think this message is to the Modi govt, which is getting too close to the west, that Russia is not thier kitty.
> In Reality, however, this message says that the Russians are facing the economic heat of the sanctions imposed by the west, and seduces india to invests in the FGFA program, and do so quick. as they alone cant lift the weight of the $50 + Billion project. ( and india is the only country which can support it financially.. korea will only go for small numbers- off the shelf purchase.. that too in the near future)
> all in all, The economic viability on part of pakistan was always evident - reasons cited above (and pakistan's current economic posture)-.. besides, if Pakistan was to even accept such Offer, India would surely protest, and the russians would surely withdraw.. as they have in the past.. so Truly, but sadly, this Never was about pakistan!!


bla bla bla......typical looser rant .... Well there is first time for everything. If we go by this shitty crappy stinkishly flawed logic of yours, the British could have said, Indians never ruled before for past 1200 yrs.


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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> Sure then , just tell bankers to go on the borders & stand upfront from the enemy fire ?lol
> Only strong defence can bring a strong economy , without a strong defence no economy can have any gurntees .


You have no idea what you're talking about, just keep quiet, bullets don't feed people.

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## Cornered Tiger

aakash_2410 said:


> war is not even a remote possibility




War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..

paisa paisa, Paisa bohot hai Pakistan k pass, next year paison ki barish hogi, Nawaz and Zardari are going to hell, sara paisa wapis aye ga ur mujhy lagta hai Next year Pakistan sb se zayada Military hardware acquire kare ga ...


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## Skull and Bones

PurpleButcher said:


> Indian Claims:-
> 
> 1> Russia will jeopardize its relations with India if SU 35 deal goes through
> 
> Reply:- Yes Indians will not like it. But, rather a very big BUT, it would be impossible for INDIA to stop doing business with Russia because of the already huge percentage of Russian weapons which require spare parts, maintenance and upgrades which can be provided by none other than Russia. India has no option but to do business with Russia though with a heavy heart may be.
> 
> 2> India will be pushed towards west i.e., Europe/ USA for weapons etc
> Reply:- Well, India since its economy has improved has been leaning towards west and with the MMRCA fiasco it became evident to the Russians that India will opt a western based platform as compared to a Russian one ,subject to availability of a quality weapon system form the west. So Just like a good customer, India is buying the best weapons form where ever it can get. There are no loyal customers, everyone wants to get the best possible deal regardless wheteher it comes form fiji, russia, france or uncle sam. So Indians must stop acting as if after this deal we will stop purchasing Russian weapons. You already didn't opt Russia for MMRCA and same will be the case sometimes in the future also. This is not nail in the coffin scenario.
> 
> 3> Wait till Modi's December visit to Russia
> Reply:- Ok. We are waiting.



You must be aware that many Eastern European countries provide upgrade and maintenance service for Soviet weapon systems.


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## R@m-R@heem

King of Hearts said:


> War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..
> 
> paisa paisa, Paisa bohot hai Pakistan k pass, next year paison ki barish hogi, Nawaz and Zardari are going to hell, sara paisa wapis aye ga ur mujhy lagta hai Next year Pakistan sb se zayada Military hardware acquire kare ga ...



LALLE, CONVENTIONAL WAR M E TO PAKISTAN HAS NO CHANCE OF BEATING INDIA.. EVEN YOUR MILITARY EXPERTS ACCEPT IT.. AND AGAR NUCLEAR WAR HUI TO PAKISTAN KA EK KATRA BHI NAHI BACHEGA TO CALL ITSELF PAKISTAN, INDIA FIR BHI KUCH NA KUCH TO BACH HI JAEGA.. BESIDES, IN A A COUPLE OF YEARS, INDIA WILL HAVE A BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEM IN MAJOR CITIES WHICH HAVE HIGHEST RISK OF A MISSILE HIT (DELHI, MUMBAI, ETC), SO THERE ARE CHANCES THAT MANY OF UR MISSILES MAY NOT EVEN FIND A MARK.
BUT IDIOTISM ASIDE, ANY NUCLEAR WAR WOULD MEAN THE END OF MANKIND.. IT WILL BE A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST WHICH WILL INVOLVE EVERY COUNTRY TO INTERVENE.. AND THE NUCLEAR WAR WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO : 
1. PAKISTAN ATTACKS INDIA (LIKE ALWAYS)
2. INDIA RETALIATE
3. END OF WAR.. END OF MANKIND

SCENARIO 2 :
1. PAKISTAN USES PROXIES INSIDE INDIAN TERRITORY (26/11)
2. INDIA USES SURGICAL STRIKES OR/AND BLACK OPS
3. PAKISTAN RETALIATES USING CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS.
4. PAKISTANI EXTREMISTS (TERRORISTS LIKE HAFIZ SYED, ETC) SEASE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
5. WORLD INTELLIGENCE ON HIGH ALERT.
6. NATO CONDUCTS MISSIONS TO STRIP PAKISTAN OF ITS NUCLEAR ARSENAL .
7. INDIA IN A FEW YEARS ATTACK PAKISTAN AND TAKE WHOLE KASHMIR. AND FREE BALUCHISTAN.

SIMPLE!


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## Salza

National Interest is bogus website mainly posted by pro Indian editors. If you go their topics (often posted on yahoo), they are heavily against Pakistan. What ever they uploaded has no relevance to the truth.


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## R@m-R@heem

King of Hearts said:


> War is confirmed my dear.. Mark my words and lets see what happens ... earth will see a war that never been witnesed..



YOU KNOW THERE IS THIS FAMOUS EINSTEIN QUOTE ON WAR : " I KNOW NOT WHAT WEAPONS WOULD THE WW3 BE FOUGHT WITH, BUT THE WW4 WILL BE FOUGHT WITH STICKS AND STONES"... TRY AND GRASP ITS REAL MEANING..


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## kadamba-warrior

batmannow said:


> Russia not cares 25 billions going out from its pocket but it cares Chinese hundreds of billions going back to China ?
> India is not hundered miles closer to China with the money ? Right ?say yes !lolzz



So, are you suggesting that China will compensate (on behalf of Pakistan) Russia's losses of $25+ Billions (and _potentially much more in the near future_) from missed Indian contracts if Russia goes ahead with Su35 to Pakistan? What would China get out of this after spending so many Billions for nothing? And how long can the Chinese keep compensating them?

If that was the case, China herself wouldn't have involved in trade worth $100B with India (not even counting the investments). Like your countrymen already mentioned, there are no permanent friends and enemies. Only self interests are permanent. And Russia's self interests dictate that they don't antagonize one of their biggest customer (India) especially at a time_ when they are under severe sanctions from the West_.

On Topic:
It is too early to predict anything but it really seems counter-intuitive for Russia to jeopardize her relationship worth tens of Billions of dollars with India _for NO apparent reason_! Perhaps, these are just pressure tactics by Russia at play here or just that the Russians just want to gauge India's reaction.

Would Russia supply a potent platform like Su35 to China? Yes, because China has deeper pockets and can potentially outspend India. Would Russia supply Su35 to Pakistan? Very unlikely, given Pakistan's own economic woes.


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## ababeel22

I believe that its better for Pakistan not to go for the flankers because that will further push India towards Europe and USA. If Russia sells SU-35 to Pakistan its not like India cannot get anything better. India can buy typhoons, Rafael or even join the F35 project. Even MKIs are not that far behind SU 35s and can be upgraded easily to the same levels, also Pakistan can not afford them in the same numbers as India can do also they have a lot more experience flying those jets. Pakistan shouldn't give an excuse to India to break its strategic relationship with Russia, which i think India is itching to do. An India using Russian technology is far less capable than an India getting its hands on some of the most advanced american and European technology. If in Today's world there is any jet that Pakistan can have to achieve its superiority over IAF is Typhoon or F 35 but Pakistan cant get it hands on any of theses because of economic and strategic condition. In my opinion Pakistan should just focus on jf17 program for now but keep on working towards improving its international image. May be in 5 years international politics will change and Pakistan will be in a position to get its hands on some western jets. (In most of the wars western jets have won against Russian jets)


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## Dil Pakistan

ababeel22 said:


> I believe that its better for Pakistan not to go for the flankers because that will further push India towards Europe and USA. If Russia sells SU-35 to Pakistan its not like India cannot get anything better. India can buy typhoons, Rafael or even join the F35 project. Even MKIs are not that far behind SU 35s and can be upgraded easily to the same levels, also Pakistan can not afford them in the same numbers as India can do also they have a lot more experience flying those jets. Pakistan shouldn't give an excuse to India to break its strategic relationship with Russia, which i think India is itching to do. An India using Russian technology is far less capable than an India getting its hands on some of the most advanced american and European technology. If in Today's world there is any jet that Pakistan can have to achieve its superiority over IAF is Typhoon or F 35 but Pakistan cant get it hands on any of theses because of economic and strategic condition. In my opinion Pakistan should just focus on jf17 program for now but keep on working towards improving its international image. May be in 5 years international politics will change and Pakistan will be in a position to get its hands on some western jets. (In most of the wars western jets have won against Russian jets)



India, Europe and USA, when doing business, will not think about Pakistan even once. India did not go for French jets due to any sale to Pakistan; and French cancelled the JF-17 upgrade deal to please India.

India has money and diplomatic muscle; USA and West need money. 

We should do and take what is in our interest and what we can afford.

According to PAF doctrine, we do not need to match IAF pound for pound. We need to keep them at an arms length and even three squadrons of SU-35 will do that.

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## R@m-R@heem

Tipu7 said:


> You really think USA needs Indian funds to support Lightening program? If they ever needed one then it will be KSA and UAE, not India............
> 
> 
> 
> 1: Russia will not provide RD93 to Pakistan.
> 2: Russia will not provide Mi35 to Pakistan
> 
> These are old claims which are dead now. Open eyes and smell coffee......... Its India under the command and influense of Russia, not vice versa.....................



INDIA IS BUYING THE APACHE FROM BOEING , WHICH IS A FAAAR SUPERIOR PLATFORM FROM THE HIND-E THAT YOU WLL FLY. RD 93 ARE VERY UNRELIABLE ENGINES.. SO BOTH YOUR CLAIMS FALL FLAT ON THEIR FACE!
BESIDES, WHERE ON EARTH WILL U FIND THE FUNDING FOR THE SU35??
PAKISTAN'S *TOTAL DEFENCE BUDGET IS ABOUT 781 BILLION* (PAKISTANI RUPEES) FOR THE FISCAL 2015-16. ( ABOUT* $6.8 BILLION)*. *PAF'S BUDGET* IS ABOUT 164 BILLION MEANING *$ 1.36 BILLION

ONE SU-35 IS ABOUT $65MILLION* APIECE (*EXCLUDING* THE COST OF* SPARES, WEAPONS, LOGISTICS, TRAINING, RADAR, ETC, ETC*).
YOU BUY *TWO SQUADRONS* OF SAY 15 FIGHTERS = *30 FIGHTERS ,* MEANS ABOUT *$ 2 BILLION* (*ONLY FIGHTERS*). EVEN IF YOU SPREAD THE COST OVER 5 YEARS, EVEN WITH A CREDIT LINE FROM RUSSIA (WHICH WILL BE THIN, GIVEN ITS OWN SANCTIONS), WILL MEAN THAT* YOU ARE SPENDING (& BLOCKING) ABOUT 36% OF YOUR TOTAL AIR FORCE'S BUDGET* FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS ON *JUST 2 SQUADRON* OF PLANES (THE SPARES OF WHICH MAY BE SCARCE IF U WAGE A WAR WITH *YOUR ARCH ENEMY INDIA - WHICH IS A VERRY CLOSE ALLY OF RUSSIA*!!! DO U THINK ITS A SAFE INVESTMENT IF AT ALL FEASIBLE*??????*
AND WE ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THAT U HAVE COMMITMENTS TO *PAY SALARIES* TO UR PERSONNEL, PAY FOR FOR YOUR *UPGRADES OF F-16*,* PURCHASE *AND* UPGRADE OF JF 17*, ETC, ETC

IN SHORT, DREAM ON! 

PS : OH AND DID I MENTION THAT THE SU35 IS AS GOOD AS THE *SUPER SUKHOI MKI* THAT INDIA HAS ALREADY STARTED UPGRADING ITS FLEET TO (AGAIN- NOT TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE CLOSE TO 2 DECADES OF EXPERIENCE OF FLYING THESE BIRDS AND KNOW ALL ITS FLAWS AND STRENGTHS).. SO IN EXCHANGE OF ALL THIS.. U DO NOT.. IN ANY WAY GAIN AN UPPER HAND TO INDIA.. NO WHERE.. THINK ABOUT IT!

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## Basel

R@m-R@heem said:


> INDIA IS BUYING THE APACHE FROM BOEING , WHICH IS A FAAAR SUPERIOR PLATFORM FROM THE HIND-E THAT YOU WLL FLY. RD 93 ARE VERY UNRELIABLE ENGINES.. SO BOTH YOUR CLAIMS FALL FLAT ON THEIR FACE!
> BESIDES, WHERE ON EARTH WILL U FIND THE FUNDING FOR THE SU35??
> PAKISTAN'S *TOTAL DEFENCE BUDGET IS ABOUT 781 BILLION* (PAKISTANI RUPEES) FOR THE FISCAL 2015-16. ( ABOUT* $6.8 BILLION)*. *PAF'S BUDGET* IS ABOUT 164 BILLION MEANING *$ 1.36 BILLION
> 
> ONE SU-35 IS ABOUT $65MILLION* APIECE (*EXCLUDING* THE COST OF* SPARES, WEAPONS, LOGISTICS, TRAINING, RADAR, ETC, ETC*).
> YOU BUY *TWO SQUADRONS* OF SAY 15 FIGHTERS = *30 FIGHTERS ,* MEANS ABOUT *$ 2 BILLION* (*ONLY FIGHTERS*). EVEN IF YOU SPREAD THE COST OVER 5 YEARS, EVEN WITH A CREDIT LINE FROM RUSSIA (WHICH WILL BE THIN, GIVEN ITS OWN SANCTIONS), WILL MEAN THAT* YOU ARE SPENDING (& BLOCKING) ABOUT 36% OF YOUR TOTAL AIR FORCE'S BUDGET* FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS ON *JUST 2 SQUADRON* OF PLANES (THE SPARES OF WHICH MAY BE SCARCE IF U WAGE A WAR WITH *YOUR ARCH ENEMY INDIA - WHICH IS A VERRY CLOSE ALLY OF RUSSIA*!!! DO U THINK ITS A SAFE INVESTMENT IF AT ALL FEASIBLE*??????*
> AND WE ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THAT U HAVE COMMITMENTS TO *PAY SALARIES* TO UR PERSONNEL, PAY FOR FOR YOUR *UPGRADES OF F-16*,* PURCHASE *AND* UPGRADE OF JF 17*, ETC, ETC
> 
> IN SHORT, DREAM ON!
> 
> PS : OH AND DID I MENTION THAT THE SU35 IS AS GOOD AS THE *SUPER SUKHOI MKI* THAT INDIA HAS ALREADY STARTED UPGRADING ITS FLEET TO (AGAIN- NOT TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE CLOSE TO 2 DECADES OF EXPERIENCE OF FLYING THESE BIRDS AND KNOW ALL ITS FLAWS AND STRENGTHS).. SO IN EXCHANGE OF ALL THIS.. U DO NOT.. IN ANY WAY GAIN AN UPPER HAND TO INDIA.. NO WHERE.. THINK ABOUT IT!



Mister on Apache, do u know that Pakistan is getting its equivalent with latest Hell fire missiles its called AH-1Z.

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## Eagle Claw

R@m-R@heem said:


> LALLE, CONVENTIONAL WAR M E TO PAKISTAN HAS NO CHANCE OF BEATING INDIA.. EVEN YOUR MILITARY EXPERTS ACCEPT IT.. AND AGAR NUCLEAR WAR HUI TO PAKISTAN KA EK KATRA BHI NAHI BACHEGA TO CALL ITSELF PAKISTAN, INDIA FIR BHI KUCH NA KUCH TO BACH HI JAEGA.. BESIDES, IN A A COUPLE OF YEARS, INDIA WILL HAVE A BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEM IN MAJOR CITIES WHICH HAVE HIGHEST RISK OF A MISSILE HIT (DELHI, MUMBAI, ETC), SO THERE ARE CHANCES THAT MANY OF UR MISSILES MAY NOT EVEN FIND A MARK.
> BUT IDIOTISM ASIDE, ANY NUCLEAR WAR WOULD MEAN THE END OF MANKIND.. IT WILL BE A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST WHICH WILL INVOLVE EVERY COUNTRY TO INTERVENE.. AND THE NUCLEAR WAR WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
> SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO :
> 1. PAKISTAN ATTACKS INDIA (LIKE ALWAYS)
> 2. INDIA RETALIATE
> 3. END OF WAR.. END OF MANKIND
> 
> SCENARIO 2 :
> 1. PAKISTAN USES PROXIES INSIDE INDIAN TERRITORY (26/11)
> 2. INDIA USES SURGICAL STRIKES OR/AND BLACK OPS
> 3. PAKISTAN RETALIATES USING CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS.
> 4. PAKISTANI EXTREMISTS (TERRORISTS LIKE HAFIZ SYED, ETC) SEASE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
> 5. WORLD INTELLIGENCE ON HIGH ALERT.
> 6. NATO CONDUCTS MISSIONS TO STRIP PAKISTAN OF ITS NUCLEAR ARSENAL .
> 7. INDIA IN A FEW YEARS ATTACK PAKISTAN AND TAKE WHOLE KASHMIR. AND FREE BALUCHISTAN.
> 
> SIMPLE!



Okay ho gaya ?
Chal Ab Nikal lay bachay yahan say !
If we started then this forum will become a mess rather than forum !


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## Cornered Tiger

R@m-R@heem said:


> LALLE, CONVENTIONAL WAR M E TO PAKISTAN HAS NO CHANCE OF BEATING INDIA.. EVEN YOUR MILITARY EXPERTS ACCEPT IT.. AND AGAR NUCLEAR WAR HUI TO PAKISTAN KA EK KATRA BHI NAHI BACHEGA TO CALL ITSELF PAKISTAN, INDIA FIR BHI KUCH NA KUCH TO BACH HI JAEGA.. BESIDES, IN A A COUPLE OF YEARS, INDIA WILL HAVE A BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEM IN MAJOR CITIES WHICH HAVE HIGHEST RISK OF A MISSILE HIT (DELHI, MUMBAI, ETC), SO THERE ARE CHANCES THAT MANY OF UR MISSILES MAY NOT EVEN FIND A MARK.
> BUT IDIOTISM ASIDE, ANY NUCLEAR WAR WOULD MEAN THE END OF MANKIND.. IT WILL BE A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST WHICH WILL INVOLVE EVERY COUNTRY TO INTERVENE.. AND THE NUCLEAR WAR WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
> SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO :
> 1. PAKISTAN ATTACKS INDIA (LIKE ALWAYS)
> 2. INDIA RETALIATE
> 3. END OF WAR.. END OF MANKIND
> 
> SCENARIO 2 :
> 1. PAKISTAN USES PROXIES INSIDE INDIAN TERRITORY (26/11)
> 2. INDIA USES SURGICAL STRIKES OR/AND BLACK OPS
> 3. PAKISTAN RETALIATES USING CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS.
> 4. PAKISTANI EXTREMISTS (TERRORISTS LIKE HAFIZ SYED, ETC) SEASE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
> 5. WORLD INTELLIGENCE ON HIGH ALERT.
> 6. NATO CONDUCTS MISSIONS TO STRIP PAKISTAN OF ITS NUCLEAR ARSENAL .
> 7. INDIA IN A FEW YEARS ATTACK PAKISTAN AND TAKE WHOLE KASHMIR. AND FREE BALUCHISTAN.
> 
> SIMPLE!




sir gee War to honi honi hai is se darrne ka koi faida nahin .. so better to keep urselves ready for it .. we are ready any time any place .. app logon ka pta nahin .. mankind mankind na karo .. rozana hi mankind ka khoon krtey hain hum log tw us pr rona kis baat ka .. na humare leaders yeh sochty hain na app k .. app k tw wese aqal se hi pedal hain ..

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## R@m-R@heem

Eagle Claw said:


> Okay ho gaya ?
> Chal Ab Nikal lay bachay yahan say !
> If we started then this forum will become a mess rather than forum !



CHAL THEEK HAI.. I AGREE.. THAT WAS WARMONGERING.. I AGREE.. MY BAD.. BUT TO SAY THAT THE WAR IS EMINENT AND ALL THAT SHYT.. I FELT COMPELLED TO PRESENT A REALITY CHECK TO YOU...



Basel said:


> Mister on Apache, do u know that Pakistan is getting its equivalent with latest Hell fire missiles its called AH-1Z.



YES I DO KNOW SIR... BUT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.. THE APACHE AH 64 LONGBOW IS THE MOST LETHAL HELICOPTER NOT BECAUSE OF THE HELFIRE MISSILE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE LONG BOW RADAR WHICH IS ON TOP OF THE ROTORS..
WHILE PAKISTAN IS TRYING TO FORM SQUADRONS FROM FOREIGN (AIDED) MILITARY HARDWARE, INDIA IS MORE CONCERNED IN BUYING TO UNDERSTAND ITS TECHNOLOGY AND BUILDING ITS OWN SYSTEMS (LCH/ RUDRA) SO AS TO BE SELF RELIANT IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS.


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## Dil Pakistan

aliyusuf said:


> I am just interested in breaching the gap between general people of both sides. The members of this forum are by and large from the respective general public of both sides. I am ok with both sides support their respective countries without being jingoistic. We can have healthy and heated exchange of views and debates without acrimony and score settlings. Learn more about each other and do away with the stereo types and prejudices that are being spread through the media.
> 
> Apart from that I am not a turn your other cheek sort of a person. I am not a pacifist in the face of bullying or intimidation. What is happening at the country to country level at the moment has gotten me all riled up. *In that arena* *I say bring it on!*



YAAR @aliyusuf and @batmannow: please do not be so pragmatic and honest. PDF is also a "chaskah"; so let us enjoy.


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## Cornered Tiger

R@m-R@heem said:


> FOREIGN (AIDED)


lol India has taken highest amount of aid in recent 5 years ... bhikari hum nahin tum ho bhai


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## R@m-R@heem

King of Hearts said:


> sir gee War to honi honi hai is se darrne ka koi faida nahin .. so better to keep urselves ready for it .. we are ready any time any place .. app logon ka pta nahin .. mankind mankind na karo .. rozana hi mankind ka khoon krtey hain hum log tw us pr rona kis baat ka .. na humare leaders yeh sochty hain na app k .. app k tw wese aqal se hi pedal hain ..



BHI TERI BHASHA SUN KE TO LAGTA BHI NAHI KI TUJHE MERI ENGLISH SAMAJH AAI HOGI.. SO ME TRANSLATE KAR TO APNA TIME WASTE NAHI KARUNGA... BAKI JO TERI SOOCH HAI.. USSE TO PATA CHAL HI RAHA HAI KI KAUN PAIDAL HAI AQAL SE..



R@m-R@heem said:


> BHI TERI BHASHA SUN KE TO LAGTA BHI NAHI KI TUJHE MERI ENGLISH SAMAJH AAI HOGI.. SO ME TRANSLATE KAR TO APNA TIME WASTE NAHI KARUNGA... BAKI JO TERI SOOCH HAI.. USSE TO PATA CHAL HI RAHA HAI KI KAUN PAIDAL HAI AQAL SE..


POINT KI KOI BAAT KARNI HAI.. ABOUT DEFENCE TO KAR.. WARNA TIME KHARAB MAT KAR!


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## HAIDER

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Majumdar
> September 14, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia seems to be eager to antagonize both friend and foe alike these days.
> 
> In a move that seems to be completely inexplicable, *Russia is apparently negotiating to sell Pakistan advanced Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters along with Mi-35 Hind-E attack helicopters. *Perhaps more amazingly, the Russians don’t seem to grasp that their Indian allies are likely to react extremely negatively at the prospect of such a deal.
> 
> 
> *“I do not think that the contracts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides,” Russian deputy foreign minister* Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9.
> 
> Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”
> 
> *An Edge for Pakistan?: *
> 
> *Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers,* but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet.
> 
> *How Would India Respond?:*
> 
> However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase* 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France *after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent.
> 
> If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.
> 
> Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:
> 
> There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.
> 
> *The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.* Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. *For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects).* The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted.
> 
> In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.
> 
> *"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters*," Carter had said at the time.
> 
> Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.
> 
> _Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for _The National Interest_. You can follow him on Twitter: _@DaveMajumdar_._


Already posted, its all mere speculation. India will never go for F35. Plane is not mature yet. According to defense analyst in US, it will be matured after 2020. Plane still in testing phase. Number of European country already reduced the number. Lack of interest, more inclination to adopt unmanned aerial vehicles. Due to change in priorities , where enemy fight low key war. These heavy duty weapons only good for regional known confrontation. Where borders and enemy is visible.
Indian has best option of Rafale and Eurofighter. Both outclass F35 right now. As far F22, its so expensive , USAF has only 122. Now debate in senate , do America need this expensive plane ?.
As far as SU35, it seems some kinda bluff from Russia. World demand of fighter manned aircraft is heading toward its end. First countries has no money, second again priorities has change. Third when a drone with 6 hellfire perform a job, they why buy millions of dollar plane and pay another millions for its maintenance.


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## MilSpec

SP!TF!R3 said:


> This part,I'm not so sure..INS Vishal may get F-35C.There is also speculation about F-35B which can be flown from our future LPD/Light AC..but I'm quite sure that Pakistan is not going to get or can't afford SU-35 of any significant number due to its prohibited cost as a 4++ gen aircraft.I pointed out that late batches of SU-30 MKI cost us nearly $100 mil a piece.Is Pakistan ready to spend more than that???They couldn't even buy JF-17s in good number,8 years after "Induction"..


Me thinks , MKI cost were in the 50mil mark, don't remember the exact number.


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## Eagle Claw

R@m-R@heem said:


> CHAL THEEK HAI.. I AGREE.. THAT WAS WARMONGERING.. I AGREE.. MY BAD.. BUT TO SAY THAT THE WAR IS EMINENT AND ALL THAT SHYT.. I FELT COMPELLED TO PRESENT A REALITY CHECK TO YOU...
> 
> 
> 
> YES I DO KNOW SIR... BUT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.. THE APACHE AH 64 LONGBOW IS THE MOST LETHAL HELICOPTER NOT BECAUSE OF THE HELFIRE MISSILE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE LONG BOW RADAR WHICH IS ON TOP OF THE ROTORS..
> WHILE PAKISTAN IS TRYING TO FORM SQUADRONS FROM FOREIGN (AIDED) MILITARY HARDWARE, INDIA IS MORE CONCERNED IN BUYING TO UNDERSTAND ITS TECHNOLOGY AND BUILDING ITS OWN SYSTEMS (LCH/ RUDRA) SO AS TO BE SELF RELIANT IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS.



Baita Ham shuru huwayay Tau Present to kiya Past k bhi ***Reality Checks*** dain gay tujhe !
Better Shut and talk on point or get Lost.


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## R@m-R@heem

King of Hearts said:


> lol India has taken highest amount of aid in recent 5 years ... bhikari hum nahin tum ho bhai


REALY??????
YE KISNE BATAYA BHAI TUMHE?????
INDIA'S STAND ON SO CALLED "AID"---




AND IT IS KNOW ALL OVER THE WORLD HOW U ARE MILKING THE USA UNDER THE CSA FUND!!!
THEN U ALSO ACCEPT SECOND-HAND VEHICLES FROM THE US-NATO LIKE RAG PICKERS.. U ACCEPT FREE HARDWARE LIKE FREE LOADERS.. DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON YOUR BEGGARY!!



Eagle Claw said:


> Baita Ham shuru huwayay Tau Present to kiya Past k bhi ***Reality Checks*** dain gay tujhe !
> Better Shut and talk on point or get Lost.


ABBE IDIOT!!
I AM TALKING ON THE POINT ONLY.. TELL ME ABOUT THE APACHE AND THE COBRA HELES U WERE SAYING THAT HAVE EQUAL PROWESS?



Eagle Claw said:


> Baita Ham shuru huwayay Tau Present to kiya Past k bhi ***Reality Checks*** dain gay tujhe !
> Better Shut and talk on point or get Lost.


AND MY FRIEND.. REALITY IS REALITY ONLY... LOOK AT ANY PAST CONFLICTS.. PAKISTAN HAS FORCED A WAR ON INDIA AND HAS HAD TO RETREAT AFTER WE DEFEATED THEM ... WHETHER OR NOT U LIKE IT.. OR ACCEPT IT.. EVERYONE IN THE WORLD KNOWS..


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## Basel

R@m-R@heem said:


> CHAL THEEK HAI.. I AGREE.. THAT WAS WARMONGERING.. I AGREE.. MY BAD.. BUT TO SAY THAT THE WAR IS EMINENT AND ALL THAT SHYT.. I FELT COMPELLED TO PRESENT A REALITY CHECK TO YOU...
> 
> 
> 
> YES I DO KNOW SIR... BUT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.. THE APACHE AH 64 LONGBOW IS THE MOST LETHAL HELICOPTER NOT BECAUSE OF THE HELFIRE MISSILE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE LONG BOW RADAR WHICH IS ON TOP OF THE ROTORS..
> WHILE PAKISTAN IS TRYING TO FORM SQUADRONS FROM FOREIGN (AIDED) MILITARY HARDWARE, INDIA IS MORE CONCERNED IN BUYING TO UNDERSTAND ITS TECHNOLOGY AND BUILDING ITS OWN SYSTEMS (LCH/ RUDRA) SO AS TO BE SELF RELIANT IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS.



US Army went for Apache but USMC wanted a helicopter which can operate around the world with ease and with similar capabilities of Apache that is why the went for Zulus and Zulus can carry long bow radar on hardpoint.


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## R@m-R@heem

Basel said:


> US Army went for Apache but USMC wanted a helicopter which can operate around the world with ease and with similar capabilities of Apache that is why the went for Zulus and Zulus can carry long bow radar on hardpoint.


EVERY SPHERICAL/DOME SHAPED RADAR IS NOT A LONGBOW MY FRIEND.
THE APACHE IS THE LATEST HELICOPTER THAT THE USAF USES AND HAS EVEN ORDERED FURTHER. IT INFUSES LATEST NETWORK FUSION TECHNOLOGY WHICH ENABLES IT TO HUNT IN PACKS IN THE AIR WHILE PROVIDING A FULL BATTLE FIELD SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, NOT JUST TO ITS OWN AIRBORNE COMPANIONS BUT ALSO TO THE ALLIED GROUND FORCES IN REAL TIME. IT HAS A BUILT IN AUTOMATIC JAMMER WHICH IS NOT JUST THE BEST THAT THERE IS, BUT ALSO REDUCES THE WORK LOAD ON THE GUNNER AND THE PILOT , FREEING THEM FOR OTHER OFFENSIVES.
THE AH-64D LONGBOW CAN CARRY UPTO 16 HELLFIRE MISSILES PER HELE.. THERE IS SOO MUCH MORE.. BUT THE BEST STAND OUT FEATURE, WHICH SETS IT APART FROM ALL ELSE IS THE NETWORK FUSION.


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## aliyusuf

Dil Pakistan said:


> YAAR @aliyusuf and @batmannow: please do not be so pragmatic and honest. PDF is also a "chaskah"; so let us enjoy.



Sir, don't let us stop you. Please carry on and enjoy!

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## MEAGAN FOXSS

PAKISTAN RUSSIA RELATIONSHIP WILL BECOME STRONGER DAY BY DAY . . .


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## MEAGAN FOXSS

ITS CONFIRMED RUSSIAN SU 35 WILL BE FLYING 2 PAKISTAN VERY SOON . . . . .


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## dadeechi

batmannow said:


> So , in the end this trusted wife of Russia (india) is crying because her husband can't take her anymore or her frats ??? Lolzz
> May be it makes him too embarrased in front of whole world because that , fat old , ugly wife is just keep frating in publuc non stop & with thunderous sounds & she showing her loyality because , she can't find a husband like Russia any more ?
> Guy is handsome , sure other girls will take him away ?Lol
> Its all natural ? No ?



Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India). But the reason for this act is not that his lady is fat or ugly. On the contrary she is quite beautiful (Indian Economy). This whole story started over two decades ago when the Husband filed for bankruptcy (Collapse of USSR) to the shock of his wife. Later the wife wanted to buy some diamonds (cryogenic engine) which the husband did not permit due to the pressure from the money lender (USA). At the same time the Money lender promised the wife that she could buy whatever she wants once she dumps her husband while warning of severe repercussions if she does not marry him (Carrot and Stick approach). The wife has started dating the money lender under pressure and kept deferring the date of their marriage for one or the other reason. In the meantime the husband, due to economic pressure, starting dating a very beautiful rich girl (China) who later brought in her half sister for a threesome.

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## Quwa

dadeechi said:


> Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India). But the reason for this act is not that his lady is fat or ugly. On the contrary she is quite beautiful (Indian Economy). This whole story started over two decades ago when the Husband filed for bankruptcy (Collapse of USSR) to the shock of his wife. Later the wife wanted to buy some diamonds (cryogenic engine) which the husband did not permit due to the pressure from the money lender (USA). At the same time the Money lender promised the wife that she could buy whatever she wants once she dumps her husband while warning of severe repercussions if she does not marry him. The wife has started dating the money lender under pressure and kept deferring the date of their marriage for one or the other reason. In the meantime the husband, due to economic pressure, starting dating a very beautiful rich girl (China) who later brought in her half sister for a threesome.


I prefer the classroom analogy. Since kindergarten, India and Russia were best friends, but in high school, they both found different people to chill with. Unfortunately, India's being very difficult and emotional, apparently some issues with the guy Pakistan that go back to the nursery and park playground, after they were dropped there by a "relative" (who was really a creepy and abusive old man known as Britain).

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## dadeechi

Mark Sien said:


> I prefer the classroom analogy. Since kindergarten, India and Russia were best friends, but in high school, they both found different people to chill with. Unfortunately, India's being very difficult and emotional, apparently some issues with the guy Pakistan that go back to the nursery and park playground, after they were dropped there by a "relative" (who was really a creepy and abusive old man known as Britain).



The greatest war in Indian history in the story of Mahabharat is testament to the fact that there are no greater enemies than the estranged brothers.

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## tarrar

Pakistan should buy SU35 & that to in good quantity, then like that PAF will be able to replace the old dying fleet of Mirages. I don't think India will go for F35.

F35 is only good for ground attacks but in to air combat it had lost against F16, so its a very long way to go before F35 is fully fit & strong for air to air combat, I am surprised that no one may be knows that F35's air to air combat is near to nothing.


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## Chanakyaa

But do Pakistani need Su 35 ? After all Su MKI is almost equal to Su 35.
Since MKI is far far more inferioor to JF17 and F16s ( any block ) of PAF, why waste money on a shit Fighter ?

I guess, ( even remotely ) its not the case where, that one need to "offer" a jet to PAF before it can be deemed as a "Killer" , "Potent" , "Credible" platform ..or even something that can hold itself in the sky.

One word "Presstitutes".

Besides, who knows its a case like (as Mastan Khan said ) , Earlier PAF was fooled by the MMRCA Circus , now with Su 35 Troll...


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## gau8av

Knight Rider said:


> One Squadron of 25 Fighter Jets will be enough........
> 
> 
> Seriously LOOK at this Beauty......


beautiful, isn't it ?

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## Chanakyaa

tarrar said:


> Pakistan should buy SU35 & that to in good quantity, then like that PAF will be able to replace the old dying fleet of Mirages. I don't think India will go for F35.
> 
> F35 is only good for ground attacks but in to air combat it had lost against F16, so its a very long way to go before F35 is fully fit & strong for air to air combat, I am surprised that no one may be knows that F35's air to air combat is near to nothing.



"should" , "can" , "would" ?

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## PurpleButcher

Skull and Bones said:


> You must be aware that many Eastern European countries provide upgrade and maintenance service for Soviet weapon systems.


Do they provide PAK FA, FGFA, nuclear submarines , BrahMos etc as well?


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## volatile

dadeechi said:


> Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India). But the reason for this act is not that his lady is fat or ugly. On the contrary she is quite beautiful (Indian Economy). This whole story started over two decades ago when the Husband filed for bankruptcy (Collapse of USSR) to the shock of his wife. Later the wife wanted to buy some diamonds (cryogenic engine) which the husband did not permit due to the pressure from the money lender (USA). At the same time the Money lender promised the wife that she could buy whatever she wants once she dumps her husband while warning of severe repercussions if she does not marry him (Carrot and Stick approach). The wife has started dating the money lender under pressure and kept deferring the date of their marriage for one or the other reason. In the meantime the husband, due to economic pressure, starting dating a very beautiful rich girl (China) who later brought in her half sister for a threesome.



Too much Bollywood in your life


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## Muhammad Omar

MEAGAN FOXSS said:


> ITS CONFIRMED RUSSIAN SU 35 WILL BE FLYING 2 PAKISTAN VERY SOON . . . . .



Any source of your Claim please


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about, just keep quiet, bullets don't feed people.


OK here we go again ?
If that was the theory of being any super power then , in today's world there wouldn't be any USA ,RUSSIA , CHINA , FRANCE & UK only one thing in common is the strong defence through their military might ?
Japan or Germany even after their so called economic boom still are beggers of security from USA why ?
I think you don't know what u talking about bullets & weapons are feeding USA , RUSSIA & CHINA ?
don't deny that ?



Dil Pakistan said:


> YAAR @aliyusuf and @batmannow: please do not be so pragmatic and honest. PDF is also a "chaskah"; so let us enjoy.


Dear may be for you its chaskha not for me & being honest brings a more clear way of thinking ?



dadeechi said:


> Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India). But the reason for this act is not that his lady is fat or ugly. On the contrary she is quite beautiful (Indian Economy). This whole story started over two decades ago when the Husband filed for bankruptcy (Collapse of USSR) to the shock of his wife. Later the wife wanted to buy some diamonds (cryogenic engine) which the husband did not permit due to the pressure from the money lender (USA). At the same time the Money lender promised the wife that she could buy whatever she wants once she dumps her husband while warning of severe repercussions if she does not marry him (Carrot and Stick approach). The wife has started dating the money lender under pressure and kept deferring the date of their marriage for one or the other reason. In the meantime the husband, due to economic pressure, starting dating a very beautiful rich girl (China) who later brought in her half sister for a threesome.


& right now that rich beauty full girl (china ) is the most richest grille of the world & ready to take revenge of her lover from that old frating ugly wife (India ) who just has become another toilet paper to the money lender USA ?
Funny thing is , no one is will to take her s his redposiblity ?lol


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## $@rJen

HAIDER said:


> Already posted, its all mere speculation. India will never go for F35. Plane is not mature yet. According to defense analyst in US, it will be matured after 2020. Plane still in testing phase. Number of European country already reduced the number. Lack of interest, more inclination to adopt unmanned aerial vehicles. Due to change in priorities , where enemy fight low key war. These heavy duty weapons only good for regional known confrontation. Where borders and enemy is visible.
> Indian has best option of Rafale and Eurofighter. Both outclass F35 right now. As far F22, its so expensive , USAF has only 122. Now debate in senate , do America need this expensive plane ?.
> As far as SU35, it seems some kinda bluff from Russia. World demand of fighter manned aircraft is heading toward its end. First countries has no money, second again priorities has change. Third when a drone with 6 hellfire perform a job, they why buy millions of dollar plane and pay another millions for its maintenance.



No.. F-35 defiantly coming to India but not for IAF bu IN.... F-22 will never be sould outside US...

As for Su-35 coming to Pakistan!!! never gonna happen... its all pressure tactics by Russia.. we'll know the result of this talk 3 months when PM visits Russia.... most probably FGFA deal and upgrading mki will be signed and RIP to su-35 talks



MEAGAN FOXSS said:


> ITS CONFIRMED RUSSIAN SU 35 WILL BE FLYING 2 PAKISTAN VERY SOON . . . . .



Ya...its also confirmed that Half Sqd of FGFA/PAK-Fa also coming to Pakistan

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## Myth_buster_1

dadeechi said:


> Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India). But the reason for this act is not that his lady is fat or ugly. On the contrary she is quite beautiful (Indian Economy). This whole story started over two decades ago when the Husband filed for bankruptcy (Collapse of USSR) to the shock of his wife. Later the wife wanted to buy some diamonds (cryogenic engine) which the husband did not permit due to the pressure from the money lender (USA). At the same time the Money lender promised the wife that she could buy whatever she wants once she dumps her husband while warning of severe repercussions if she does not marry him (Carrot and Stick approach). The wife has started dating the money lender under pressure and kept deferring the date of their marriage for one or the other reason. In the meantime the husband, due to economic pressure, starting dating a very beautiful rich girl (China) who later brought in her half sister for a threesome.



holy sh1t.... what have you been smoking? 
Actually India is Russia's Wife (fat ugly old) who whines to much and does not fulfill husbands bedroom desire so Russia is dating two mistresses China and Pakistan (though nonsexual) and Russia is trying best to dump the fat old ugly Indian wife.... the wife (india) however is a stubborn fat old ugly women who is rich and Russia is not so ready to dump her because Russia needs money to pay his mistresses with the wife's money that is.....


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## batmannow

dadeechi said:


> The greatest war in Indian history in the story of Mahabharat is testament to the fact that there are no greater enemies than the estranged brothers.


Mahabhrat is not the title of the thread , come out of that mind set , cause Russians are not intrested in that old story ?lol
They are writing beautyful new history by giving Pakistan their best SU-35 to counter India ?lolz


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## PurpleButcher

^^^ Nice bollywood story


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## R@m-R@heem

batmannow said:


> Mahabhrat is not the title of the thread , come out of that mind set , cause Russians are not intrested in that old story ?lol
> They are writing beautyful new history by giving Pakistan their best SU-35 to counter India ?lolz


oh yea.. mahabharat is'nt part of the thread, so it Must be dropped... But the marital - bedroom analogies are DEFINITELY a part of the thread.. so lets keep calling india as an old fat lady and term your own country as the sultry, characterless woman?! **PICTURE PERFECT**


dadeechi said:


> The greatest war in Indian history in the story of Mahabharat is testament to the fact that there are no greater enemies than the estranged brothers.


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## Skywalker

Indians will never swallow any bitter truth when it comes to pakistan, thats why once a wise man said..when ten indians stand in a single file ear to ear, do you know what they make...a wind tunnel.

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## batmannow

R@m-R@heem said:


> oh yea.. mahabharat is'nt part of the thread, so it Must be dropped... But the marital - bedroom analogies are DEFINITELY a part of the thread.. so lets keep calling india as an old fat lady and term your own country as the sultry, characterless woman?! **PICTURE PERFECT**


Sorry to bust your small buble , it all started with a post if Indian just try to look pages of the thread ?
We don't use stupid & cluless stories to define our country or the beast SU-35 , which we get & set the dam Indian air force shocked up ?


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## R@m-R@heem

batmannow said:


> Sorry to bust your small buble , it all started with a post if Indian just try to look pages of the thread ?
> We don't use stupid & cluless stories to define our country or the beast SU-35 , which we get & set the dam Indian air force shocked up ?


AWESOME@! So some stupid fella trolled a defence page with lame stories and you guys instead of ignoring him or shutting him down, decided to take it forward. but mahabarat k mention pe u decided to pull the guy up?? Selective reasoning it seems... and even this conversation has gone off the topic so i wouldn't pursue it further.. just wanted to bring this to everyones attention..
otherwise , i agree with you.. lets stick to the tread!!



R@m-R@heem said:


> AWESOME@! So some stupid fella trolled a defence page with lame stories and you guys instead of ignoring him or shutting him down, decided to take it forward. but mahabarat k mention pe u decided to pull the guy up?? Selective reasoning it seems... and even this conversation has gone off the topic so i wouldn't pursue it further.. just wanted to bring this to everyones attention..
> otherwise , i agree with you.. lets stick to the tread!!



And for the "Beast Su35".. its still an unofficial word of mouth.. dont get too excited soo quick... chances are that you wont even be made this in reality... and if made.. ur economy wont be able to afford it.. realistically.


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## nadeemkhan110

dadeechi said:


> Yes. you are correct in that the Handsome guy (Russia) is dating two beautiful girls who also happen to be half sisters (China and Pakistan) in front of his wife (India).


Actually china is a husband of Russia and india is a step sister of Russia and Pakistan is a brother of china. Russia wants to leave her sister because her sister (India) wants to marry with her Enemy (USA) 
Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat

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## R@m-R@heem

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Actually china is a husband of Russia and india is a step sister of Russia and Pakistan is a brother of china. Russia wants to leave her sister because her sister (India) wants to marry with her Enemy (USA)
> Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat


..
no wonder your films never work.... soo limited in your imagination... husband.. wife... god.. be men for once.. and talk on the topic!!!

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## nadeemkhan110

R@m-R@heem said:


> ..
> no wonder your films never work.... soo limited in your imagination... husband.. wife... god.. be men for once.. and talk on the topic!!!


Its a true story man
look at fact and sources

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## Khanivore

R@m-R@heem said:


> ..
> no wonder your films never work.... soo limited in your imagination... husband.. wife... god.. be men for once.. and talk on the topic!!!


Last night you was pressing your opinion upon us all in CAPS which was so difficult read, hardly anyone read your drivel. I don't blame poor old @nadeemkhan110 for resorting to a Bollywood-style analogy because, after decades of brainwashing, that's the only way the Indian public understands issues, events and life in general now.

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## Irfan Baloch

R@m-R@heem said:


> ..
> no wonder your films never work.... soo limited in your imagination... husband.. wife... god.. be men for once.. and talk on the topic!!!


lol script fail



nadeemkhan110 said:


> Actually china is a husband of Russia and india is a step sister of Russia and Pakistan is a brother of china. Russia wants to leave her sister because her sister (India) wants to marry with her Enemy (USA)
> Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat


please dont join film industry
it was good and funny but an own goal too

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## !eon

Mark Sien said:


> I prefer the classroom analogy. Since kindergarten, India and Russia were best friends, but in high school, they both found different people to chill with. Unfortunately, India's being very difficult and emotional, apparently some issues with the guy Pakistan that go back to the nursery and park playground, after they were dropped there by a "relative" (who was really a *creepy and abusive old man known as Britain*).


Form her behavior, Britain seems to be an old woman. I saw her always running towards her boyfriend Sam, when her eastern naughty neighbor, Deutschland taunts her.


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## R@m-R@heem

Khanivore said:


> Last night you was pressing your opinion upon us all in CAPS which was so difficult read, hardly anyone read your drivel. I don't blame poor old @nadeemkhan110 for resorting to a Bollywood-style analogy because, after decades of brainwashing, that's the only way the Indian public understands issues, events and life in general now.


right.. soo says the guy who has Arnold Schwarzenegger with a backdrop of the American flag.. 



Khanivore said:


> Last night you was pressing your opinion upon us all in CAPS which was so difficult read, hardly anyone read your drivel. I don't blame poor old @nadeemkhan110 for resorting to a Bollywood-style analogy because, after decades of brainwashing, that's the only way the Indian public understands issues, events and life in general now.


and the caps was cz i had to write a paper, which had to read by my professors.. they prefer all caps... but myopics like u choose to see the "ALL CAPS" and not READ what the content was.. this has always been Pakistan's drawback.. makes me wonder why?!


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## nadeemkhan110

Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.
Whether Russia would damage its relations with India to sell fighters to Pakistan seems dubious, however, according to the report, which also said that a small number of Su-35 fighters would not strengthen the Pakistan Air Force to any degree against the Indian Air Force, which has hundreds of Su-30MKI fighters purchased from Russia in service.
China has traditionally been the main supplier of military aircraft to Pakistan, the report pointed out. Beijing and Islamabad's close relationship since the 1950s may be prone to the covert collection of technological secrets by the PLA Air Force through the Pakistan Air Force. If Russia suspected such a leak, it would likely forego sales to Pakistan, according to the report.
Major General Arshad Malik of the Pakistan Air Force already announced that his nation had decided to purchase between 250 and 275 JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighters jointly designed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (the fighter is designated the FC-1 Xiaolong in China). The PLA Air Force is still considered a major partner of the Pakistan Air Force regarding the development and production of new fighters, according to the Global Times.
Russia rumored to be offering Su-35 fighters to Pakistan｜WCT


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## Muhammad Omar

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.
> Whether Russia would damage its relations with India to sell fighters to Pakistan seems dubious, however, according to the report, which also said that a small number of Su-35 fighters would not strengthen the Pakistan Air Force to any degree against the Indian Air Force, which has hundreds of Su-30MKI fighters purchased from Russia in service.
> China has traditionally been the main supplier of military aircraft to Pakistan, the report pointed out. Beijing and Islamabad's close relationship since the 1950s may be prone to the covert collection of technological secrets by the PLA Air Force through the Pakistan Air Force. If Russia suspected such a leak, it would likely forego sales to Pakistan, according to the report.
> Major General Arshad Malik of the Pakistan Air Force already announced that his nation had decided to purchase between 250 and 275 JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighters jointly designed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (the fighter is designated the FC-1 Xiaolong in China). The PLA Air Force is still considered a major partner of the Pakistan Air Force regarding the development and production of new fighters, according to the Global Times.
> Russia rumored to be offering Su-35 fighters to Pakistan｜WCT



What 250-275 JF-17??


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## nadeemkhan110

Irfan Baloch said:


> lol script fail
> 
> 
> please dont join film industry
> it was good and funny but an own goal too


 haha OK


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## nadeemkhan110

Muhammad Omar said:


> What 250-275 JF-17??


 
omar what is wrong?


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## Basel

R@m-R@heem said:


> EVERY SPHERICAL/DOME SHAPED RADAR IS NOT A LONGBOW MY FRIEND.
> THE APACHE IS THE LATEST HELICOPTER THAT THE USAF USES AND HAS EVEN ORDERED FURTHER. IT INFUSES LATEST NETWORK FUSION TECHNOLOGY WHICH ENABLES IT TO HUNT IN PACKS IN THE AIR WHILE PROVIDING A FULL BATTLE FIELD SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, NOT JUST TO ITS OWN AIRBORNE COMPANIONS BUT ALSO TO THE ALLIED GROUND FORCES IN REAL TIME. IT HAS A BUILT IN AUTOMATIC JAMMER WHICH IS NOT JUST THE BEST THAT THERE IS, BUT ALSO REDUCES THE WORK LOAD ON THE GUNNER AND THE PILOT , FREEING THEM FOR OTHER OFFENSIVES.
> THE AH-64D LONGBOW CAN CARRY UPTO 16 HELLFIRE MISSILES PER HELE.. THERE IS SOO MUCH MORE.. BUT THE BEST STAND OUT FEATURE, WHICH SETS IT APART FROM ALL ELSE IS THE NETWORK FUSION.



U people mostly claim things which you don't know about. AH-1Z can carry longbow radar Just google it.

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## Muhammad Omar

nadeemkhan110 said:


> omar what is wrong?



wrong is it was 150 not 250-275... where did you get that numbers from


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## Last Samuri

I'm sure the Indians will be delighted if you acquire 275 thunders.

THATS A LOT OF CASH AND RESOURCES IN ONE DIRECTION

LESS MONEY for F16 or J31 or SU35 or J10B


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## batmannow

R@m-R@heem said:


> AWESOME@! So some stupid fella trolled a defence page with lame stories and you guys instead of ignoring him or shutting him down, decided to take it forward. but mahabarat k mention pe u decided to pull the guy up?? Selective reasoning it seems... and even this conversation has gone off the topic so i wouldn't pursue it further.. just wanted to bring this to everyones attention..
> otherwise , i agree with you.. lets stick to the tread!!
> 
> 
> 
> And for the "Beast Su35".. its still an unofficial word of mouth.. dont get too excited soo quick... chances are that you wont even be made this in reality... and if made.. ur economy wont be able to afford it.. realistically.


When your hot shots trolls , tried their rock & roll then here on PDF ,they have me , a super Pakistani troll to entertain & ambush them , I have done a hard work on them ?
None of them , seems to come back ?lol
Unofficial word of mouth ? Russian deputy FM? Lol
Here we go again , you are out of senses denying the hard fact ?
Just because , its Pakistan getting the best of the Russian fighter jets ?
& that's a epic , & true Indian spirit ?



R@m-R@heem said:


> right.. soo says the guy who has Arnold Schwarzenegger with a backdrop of the American flag..
> 
> 
> and the caps was cz i had to write a paper, which had to read by my professors.. they prefer all caps... but myopics like u choose to see the "ALL CAPS" and not READ what the content was.. this has always been Pakistan's drawback.. makes me wonder why?!


On the topic ?
Or will be reported ?


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## nadeemkhan110

Last Samuri said:


> I'm sure the Indians will be delighted if you acquire 275 thunders.
> 
> THATS A LOT OF CASH AND RESOURCES IN ONE DIRECTION
> 
> LESS MONEY for F16 or J31 or SU35 or J10B


 The source is not trustable total of 150 jf-17s ,50 Block-I, 50 Block-II and 50 Block-III ... as announced till now. It has not been announced how many more will be produced or ordered.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Last Samuri said:


> I'm sure the Indians will be delighted if you acquire 275 thunders.
> 
> THATS A LOT OF CASH AND RESOURCES IN ONE DIRECTION
> 
> LESS MONEY for F16 or J31 or SU35 or J10B


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## batmannow

nadeemkhan110 said:


> The source is not trustable total of 150 jf-17s ,50 Block-I, 50 Block-II and 50 Block-III ... as announced till now. It has not been announced how many more will be produced or ordered.


It doesn't matters how many threads been shot into the PDF against the SU-35 induction into PAF , it is about to happen cause the future is in Chinese hands who are changing the worlds maps ?
Created by colonial powers of 1800s?
& for them Pakistan & its defence is equally important , listening the Indian govts biases daily threats in official & unofficial statements has angered the golden dragon , & he is about to set the records straight by sending SU-35 as its covert gift to Pakistan .
Russia also is important ,China partner who wants to establish itself in the middle east .
So for China ,Pakistan ,Russia they have common goals & for that they are ready to do anything ?



Mark Sien said:


> By Bilal Khan
> 
> Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.
> By Bilal Khan
> 
> As with the Yak-130 story, there are reports floating around claiming that Pakistan may be interested in the Sukhoi Su-35, Russia’s current 4+/4.5 generation fighter. The short of my point is that it is very unlikely that Pakistan will pick up the Su-35. At the same time however, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) not acquiring the Su-35 does not necessarily mean that Pakistan will not acquire other high-value systems from Russia. Yes, Russian-Pakistani defence relations are at an all-time high, especially with Moscow’s willingness to sell Pakistan RD-93 turbofans and Mi-35 assault helicopters, but it is important to manage expectations.
> 
> It is no secret that Pakistan’s purchase of the Mi-35 was seen as a major milestone for Pakistani-Russian commercial defence ties, especially since the Mi-35 (despite the Pakistan Army’s requirement for using it as part of its counter-insurgency efforts) is at heart an ‘offensive’ system. Perhaps more significant was Russia’s willingness to sell the RD-93 turbofan, which powers the JF-17, an increasingly vital pillar of Pakistan’s defensive and offensive strategies against external powers. There really is no room for Russia to claim that its arms-transfers to Pakistan are innocuous to India. Thus, if the PAF was genuinely interested and able to purchase it, then I am sure the Russians would sell the Su-35 to the PAF.
> 
> But herein lies the problem, the PAF is *not *interested in the Su-35. Yes, there have been some thoughtful calls on the part of many enthusiasts and even experts for the PAF (or even Pakistan Navy!) to buy the Su-35, or at least some kind of Flanker (e.g. the Chinese J-11B/D). The rationale stems in part from the fact that the Su-35 is a formidable long-range fighter with considerable payload. For long-range strike and maritime patrol operations, a fighter of the Flanker’s nature would, without doubt, be a valuable asset. Even the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI presents a real and serious problem for the PAF, and even with the advances coming up with JF-17 and the induction of the Block-52+/MLU, the Flanker is a major challenge.
> 
> At the same time however, the Su-35 has its drawbacks, and those drawbacks will be of particular concern to the PAF. The Flanker-series has shown itself to be a maintenance challenge, and even on a good day, a fighter as large and powerful as the Su-35 would require considerable resources in servicing and flight. As far as the PAF is concerned, the Su-35 would be a mismatch that could end up costing the PAF more than actually benefitting it. Do not construe this point for suggesting that the PAF does not need fighters with additional range and payload (compared to the JF-17), it does, but this fighter needs to be feasible enough to operate. What would be the point of possessing such a high-value asset if it cannot be flown regularly enough due to mounting maintenance and operational costs? And let us assume the PAF can regularly fly Su-35s, what about the opportunity costs of spending that extra money?
> 
> As far as I am concerned, talk about the PAF looking into the Su-35 is a non-starter. In fact, at this stage anyways, the PAF is probably looking into the Shenyang J-31 as the nucleus of a possible long-range flight element. In essence, the J-31 probably sit in the comfortable middle between the Su-35 and JF-17 in terms of improving upon the latter’s range and payload, but avoiding the former’s maintenance overhead. Yes, this is not happening any time soon, but let us be frank, the PAF is not in a position to immediately induct such platforms anyways. Pakistan’s general economic woes and internal inefficiencies aside, the country spent nearly $2 billion U.S on its recent campaign in Waziristan. It is difficult to expect to see the induction of an entirely new fighter type this soon.
> 
> With all that said, there is still significant room for growth in Pakistan’s relations with Russia. While the PAF is unlikely to acquire the Su-35 or Yak-130, there might be a chance to see it pursue Russian surface-to-air (SAM) missiles such as the S-300. The PAF has had a longstanding requirement for long-range SAMs and has made some attempts over the past decade or so to acquire this capability. If there were a chance for a truly landmark deal between Russia and Pakistan, then the S-300 would be it, though there is nothing at this stage to suggest that this is happening, unfortunately. Besides that, we can comfortably expect additional Mi-35, Mi-171 and perhaps even RD-93MA for use on the JF-17.
> 
> Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.


Here we go another ,paid journalists trying His Google giggles to prove that Pakistan is not & must not get SU35 ?
Thus dam article looks like a joke , stupid don't know what China is about to do in Pakistan as economic corridor thing is in progress ?
With the same stupid thinking one can ask who will be paying he whole cash for the project ?obviously China ?
To protect it from Pakistan China common enemy INDIA , its just nothing to pay for 100 SU-35s & their mentainece which , China has a lot as it is handling FLANKERS quite a long time , will not any MISSION IMPOSIBLE ?
so those who are having night mares from SU-35 in PAF are the ones behind these kind of idiotic paid media shots ?

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## nadeemkhan110

batmannow said:


> It doesn't matters how many threads been shot into the PDF against the SU-35 induction into PAF , it is about to happen cause the future is in Chinese hands who are changing the worlds maps ?
> Created by colonial powers of 1800s?
> & for them Pakistan & its defence is equally important , listening the Indian govts biases daily threats in official & unofficial statements has angered the golden dragon , & he is about to set the records straight by sending SU-35 as its covert gift to Pakistan .
> Russia also is important ,China partner who wants to establish itself in the middle east .
> So for China ,Pakistan ,Russia they have common goals & for that they are ready to do anything ?


 agree with you but Russia will have to decide because india is creating pressure on Russia on aircraft sale
Coming soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | Asia Times


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## SOHEIL

Why not Chinese clone?


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

King of Hearts said:


> ITS CONFIRMED RUSSIAN SU 35 WILL BE FLYING 2 PAKISTAN VERY SOON . . . . .



how can u be so sure about that bro. ? though i wish that to be true ; just cant wait to see it flying by P.a.F. .


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## Mughal-Prince

blue marlin said:


> a part from the j31 is is almost guaranteed to be inducted in the future and the possibly j10, what else is there for you guys? i was thinking the eft but thats way to expensive. any thoughts?



I am more interested in EJ-2XX and other sub-systems from EFT  as its made by consortium so I believe it may be relatively easy to acquire sub-systems from respective countries which may help improving our platforms which we are building with the help of China.


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## Blue Marlin

Mughal-Prince said:


> I am more interested in EJ-2XX and other sub-systems from EFT  as its made by consortium so I believe it may be relatively easy to acquire sub-systems from respective countries which may help improving our platforms which we are building with the help of China.


you mean the ej-200 stage 2 ? it is a groups of companies that work to build the engine. this makes it difficult to obtain the engine as all of the countries involved would need to approve the export of the engine. the ej-200 s2 is a good option not only for the j-31 but also the jf-17. i understand if saudi arabia were to induct the jf-17 (unlikely) then they will choose the ej200 as the engine. as it is the same engine as the eft's which they too have.

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## R@m-R@heem

*Mod Edit: Any more personal attacks and I will ban you, stick to the topic. *



batmannow said:


> When your hot shots trolls , tried their rock & roll then here on PDF ,they have me , a super Pakistani troll to entertain & ambush them , I have done a hard work on them ?
> None of them , seems to come back ?lol
> Unofficial word of mouth ? Russian deputy FM? Lol
> Here we go again , you are out of senses denying the hard fact ?
> Just because , its Pakistan getting the best of the Russian fighter jets ?
> & that's a epic , & true Indian spirit ?
> 
> 
> On the topic ?
> Or will be reported ?



*Simple fact* : where is the money to buy the jets????
the budget allocation for your* air force is just over 6 billion USD* for the year *2015-2016*. Even *Two batches of 15 Su35 each will cost u a total of about 2 Billion USD... **(WITHOUT weapons, training, maintenance, logistics etc*) (unit price of 1 Su35 is 65million) . Even if u get a modest credit line and spread the finance for 5-7 years, U will *hold up about 10% of your TOTAL BUDGETED CAPITAL OUTLAY.. every year for the next 5-7 YEARS*.

And this is *not to mention that PAF has ambitious plans to Modernise* its_ F-16 fleet, Upgrade the JF 17, induct AWACs, build & develop more Drones, Replace old 3rd generation fleet of more than 200 fighters, Upgrade Bases and Radar Installations. . and then of course also pay the salaries to all personnel, ground maintenance, pilots, etc, etc_..
*So My dearest fella , where is the Money....??????*


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## abdulbarijan

R@m-R@heem said:


> Do humanity a Favour and -





R@m-R@heem said:


> right.. soo says the guy who has Arnold Schwarzenegger with a backdrop of the American flag..
> 
> 
> and the caps was cz i had to write a paper, which had to read by my professors.. they prefer all caps... but myopics like u choose to see the "ALL CAPS" and not READ what the content was.. this has always been Pakistan's drawback.. makes me wonder why?!



Cool story, Now please explain how these two responses of yours do anything for the topic at hand ... Infact what you were posting was quite beyond logic ... I found that post especially quite impressive the "scenario 2" of yours in which India wipes Pakistan off the map using nukes after Pakistan initiates a conflict through something like 26/11 ..

The irony of the situation being, Pakistan, according to your own Indian claims has done that twice in the last decade alone ... (26/11 & parliment attacks) and yet your here yapping about how your gonna do this and that ... but when push comes to shove you suddenly lose your nerve ... your politicians come up and say that we're going to make an example out of this yada yada yada ... and yet the result is the same ... still awaiting those surgical strikes ...

Coming to the topic -- please do enlighten us on which Pakistani source claimed the SU-35 talks .. ?? --- After the MMRCA selection ended with Rafale being shortlisted, there were talks from the* RUSSIAN* side about the consideration of selling us the Mig-35 ... Just a month ago it was Ilya Kranik, a *RUSSIAN expert* who declared that PAF was considered amongst the potential customers for SU-35 ... and now it is again the* RUSSIAN FM* who is talking about the SU-35 for PAF ..

So as far as we're concerned we haven't even officially given an input on the rumors ... the only close thing was Kaiser Tufail explaining the NEED for a heavy platform ... so instead of going on with the "hahaha ... dream on" posts that you were posting yesterday or the personal insults your spewing now ... which BTW i have reported you for ... be a little more productive and try to contribute positively to the forum ...

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## cmpk1

we're not getting SU 35. Hope Indians will now sleep well


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## Quwa

batmannow said:


> It doesn't matters how many threads been shot into the PDF against the SU-35 induction into PAF , it is about to happen cause the future is in Chinese hands who are changing the worlds maps ?
> Created by colonial powers of 1800s?
> & for them Pakistan & its defence is equally important , listening the Indian govts biases daily threats in official & unofficial statements has angered the golden dragon , & he is about to set the records straight by sending SU-35 as its covert gift to Pakistan .
> Russia also is important ,China partner who wants to establish itself in the middle east .
> So for China ,Pakistan ,Russia they have common goals & for that they are ready to do anything ?
> 
> 
> Here we go another ,paid journalists trying His Google giggles to prove that Pakistan is not & must not get SU35 ?
> Thus dam article looks like a joke , stupid don't know what China is about to do in Pakistan as economic corridor thing is in progress ?
> With the same stupid thinking one can ask who will be paying he whole cash for the project ?obviously China ?
> To protect it from Pakistan China common enemy INDIA , its just nothing to pay for 100 SU-35s & their mentainece which , China has a lot as it is handling FLANKERS quite a long time , will not any MISSION IMPOSIBLE ?
> so those who are having night mares from SU-35 in PAF are the ones behind these kind of idiotic paid media shots ?


I wrote the article. Before calling the article a joke, try addressing the reality that there hasn't even been one verifiable statement proving that talks are taking place. All we have is a Russian official's alleged statement being conveyed to us by just one media source, one. Nothing else. Not only that, but from past precedent (of PAF acquisitions), we know that whenever the PAF is indeed in talks over something, it actually announces it, even in the early stages. All this stuff about China's experience maintaining Flankers and CPEC helping to fund it (when in reality it is a series of investments in economic projects and infrastructure, not military assistance) is irrelevant and worse than speculation. Honest speculation and analyses are great, it lets us broaden our horizons and consider many possibilities, but don't be dishonest and suggest your hypothetical viewpoint is in any way true. You're doing a disservice to all the people who truly do want to see the Su-35 in PAF colours.

If talks are taking place or if PAF is actually interested, then prove it. Until then, speculate away, but refrain from calling myself or others stupid for maintaining views that are in disagreement with yours. You're free to live in your fantasy, just don't interfere with everyone else's reality. Thanks.

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## R@m-R@heem

abdulbarijan said:


> Cool story, Now please explain how these two responses of yours do anything for the topic at hand ... Infact what you were posting was so beyond logic ... I found that post especially quite impressive the "scenario 2" of yours in which India wipes Pakistan off the map using nukes after Pakistan initiates a conflict through something like 26/11 ..
> 
> The irony of the situation being, Pakistan, according to your own Indian claims has done that twice in the last decade alone ... (26/11 & parliment attacks) and yet your here yapping about how your gonna do this and that ... but when push comes to shove you suddenly lose your nerve ... your politicians come up and say that we're going to make an example out of this and yet the result is the same ... still awaiting those surgical strikes ...
> 
> Coming to the topic -- please do enlighten us on which Pakistani source claimed the SU-35 talks .. ?? --- After the MMRCA selection ended with Rafale being shortlisted, there were talks from the RUSSIAN side about the consideration of selling us the Mig-35 ... Just a month ago it was Ilya Kranik, a RUSSIAN expert who declared that PAF was considered amongst the potential customers for SU-35 ... and now it is again the RUSSIAN FM who is talking about the SU-35 for PAF ..
> 
> So as far as we're concerned we haven't even officially given an input on the whole rumors ... the only close thing was Kaiser Tufail explaining the NEED for a heavy platform ... so instead of going on with the "hahaha ... dream on" posts that you were posting yesterday or the personal insults your spewing now ... which BTW i have reported you for ... be a little more productive and try to contribute positively to the forum ...



Your fan boys started multiple threads regarding the Su 35.. asif u are getting them tomorrow for free... i have from the start said that it is nothing but a Russian gimmick to try and get india's attention back to the Indo-Russian FGFA.

As for the personal insults that u think i was spewing... i did so in retaliation.. please check ur own buddies... if they taunt me, so will i.. besides, we are not 5 graders (or atleast i hope for u) that we will take offence of small things and start rattling the Mods every now and then. (yesterday some guys had a problem cz i was using ALL CAPS... even when i said that i was simultaneously working on a separate project, i was told "no excuses"... lol.. i mean, was i even giving an excuse???!!? i was merely TELLING that i WONT be able to shift from ALL CAPS cs i cant keep changing from one doc to another....phewwwwww..... i mean.. if ur patience is soo short, and u are so easily offended then dont come to social networking sites, or people will offend u even if they sneeze!!
i haven't used any foul language anywhere to anyone.. but if u think u can provoke me and feel cool about it, then let me assure u that i am not someone who will let u derive that pleasure at all ("still waiting for surgical strikes" by YOU today.. and yesterday some guy was warmongering implying that a nuclear war was inevitable.. when i went into the two scenarios, essentially meaning that ANY Nuclear war will be a Nuclear Holocaust. )
Please do your research before pretending to be the jury..
THIS, Again is NOT in topic because YOU have asked me questions.. Dont ask questions which are not related to the topic!! it wastes time and energy



abdulbarijan said:


> Cool story, Now please explain how these two responses of yours do anything for the topic at hand ... Infact what you were posting was quite beyond logic ... I found that post especially quite impressive the "scenario 2" of yours in which India wipes Pakistan off the map using nukes after Pakistan initiates a conflict through something like 26/11 ..
> 
> The irony of the situation being, Pakistan, according to your own Indian claims has done that twice in the last decade alone ... (26/11 & parliment attacks) and yet your here yapping about how your gonna do this and that ... but when push comes to shove you suddenly lose your nerve ... your politicians come up and say that we're going to make an example out of this yada yada yada ... and yet the result is the same ... still awaiting those surgical strikes ...
> 
> Coming to the topic -- please do enlighten us on which Pakistani source claimed the SU-35 talks .. ?? --- After the MMRCA selection ended with Rafale being shortlisted, there were talks from the* RUSSIAN* side about the consideration of selling us the Mig-35 ... Just a month ago it was Ilya Kranik, a *RUSSIAN expert* who declared that PAF was considered amongst the potential customers for SU-35 ... and now it is again the* RUSSIAN FM* who is talking about the SU-35 for PAF ..
> 
> So as far as we're concerned we haven't even officially given an input on the rumors ... the only close thing was Kaiser Tufail explaining the NEED for a heavy platform ... so instead of going on with the "hahaha ... dream on" posts that you were posting yesterday or the personal insults your spewing now ... which BTW i have reported you for ... be a little more productive and try to contribute positively to the forum ...


... And for the benefit of your Vocabulary, "Myopic" is not an insult, it means short sightedness.. and anyone who gets affected by ALL CAPS thinking "oh.. the guy is using All Caps.. its rude.." and fails to see the Content of the Argument being presented, is ideologically.. and in the best of my understanding.. Myopic..
ps: and thanks for appreciating the "story" dud..



cmpk1 said:


> we're not getting SU 35. Hope Indians will now sleep well


haha.. buddy, it was always a long shot.. to be honest.
besides, chinese j31, j10 is a better option for paf.. whenever in u do have it available the in the near future..


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## abdulbarijan

R@m-R@heem said:


> Your fan boys started multiple threads regarding the Su 35.. asif u are getting them tomorrow for free... i have from the start said that it is nothing but a Russian gimmick to try and get india's attention back to the Indo-Russian FGFA.
> 
> As for the personal insults that u think i was spewing... i did so in retaliation.. please check ur own buddies... if they taunt me, so will i.. besides, we are not 5 graders (or atleast i hope for u) that we will take offence of small things and start rattling the Mods every now and then. (yesterday some guys had a problem cz i was using ALL CAPS... even when i said that i was simultaneously working on a separate project, i was told "no excuses"... lol.. i mean, was i even giving an excuse???!!? i was merely TELLING that i WONT be able to shift from ALL CAPS cs i cant keep changing from one doc to another....phewwwwww..... i mean.. if ur patience is soo short, and u are so easily offended then dont come to social networking sites, or people will offend u even if they sneeze!!
> i haven't used any foul language anywhere to anyone.. but if u think u can provoke me and feel cool about it, then let me assure u that i am not someone who will let u derive that pleasure at all ("still waiting for surgical strikes" by YOU today.. and yesterday some guy was warmongering implying that a nuclear war was inevitable.. when i went into the two scenarios, essentially meaning that ANY Nuclear war will be a Nuclear Holocaust. )
> Please do your research before pretending to be the jury..
> THIS, Again is NOT in topic because YOU have asked me questions.. Dont ask questions which are not related to the topic!! it wastes time and energy



Okay then, lets take a look at those threads in a chronological order ..

Ilya Kramnik Russian military expert call Pakistan potential buyer of SU35

The thread, based on Ilya Kramnik's consideration of PAF being a potential customer of SU-35 ..

Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not

This thread was based off the personal opinion of one of the members here --- and was actually suggesting "no SU-35 for PAF" due to a variety of reasons ...

https://defence.pk/threads/talks-for-su-35-mi-35-sales-to-pakistan-are-underway-russian-deputy-fm.396864/ 

and then this thread was created, because the deputy FM of Russia was quoted as saying such & such ..

PAF Should Go For The F 35---A Coupe De Grace

Lastly, this thread was created because it was on yahoo's news feed and was an analysis done by Dave Majumar of the nationalinterest.org and for a "western" perception of the topic ..

Bottom line out of the 4 threads created, 2 were simply news of a Russian expert and a deputy FM saying all what we've heard .. one was an analysis of a Pakistani on how the SU-35 will NOT be part of the PAF and one was an analysis from the point of view of the west ... So instead of lecturing me on how "fan boys" were posting stuff .. how about you ACTUALLY SEE what was posted in the first place ... I find it ironic that you were the one complaining on how we Pakistanis don't see the content ... and yet ... looky looky ... 

Oh, and I would just like to point out that I quite enjoyed on how the point your trying to prove is that we Pakistanis are short on patience ... while writing like a whole paragraph citing the reasons on why you lost yours ... Lastly, as far as you defending the insults you threw out ... just to add to YOUR vocabulary Myopia is also a synonym for narrow mindedness depending upon the context you use it in ... and then saying XYZ is a problem of a "whole nation" is a generalization which is considered bigotry ..



R@m-R@heem said:


> but myopics like u choose to see the "ALL CAPS" and not READ what the content was.. this has always been Pakistan's drawback..




So instead of pretending to be a scholar "writing papers" for "professors" that love their papers in "All CAPS" because they don't have "Myopia" ... how about you pick up the common courtesy of the very same 5th grader that your hoping im not, because we could then actually discuss your one liner argument instead of 3 paragraphs of whining ...

Have a nice day

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## R@m-R@heem

abdulbarijan said:


> Okay then, lets take a look at those threads in a chronological order ..
> 
> Ilya Kramnik Russian military expert call Pakistan potential buyer of SU35
> 
> The thread, based on Ilya Kramnik's consideration of PAF being a potential customer of SU-35 ..
> 
> Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not
> 
> This thread was based off the personal opinion of one of the members here --- and was actually suggesting "no SU-35 for PAF" due to a variety of reasons ...
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/talks-for-su-35-mi-35-sales-to-pakistan-are-underway-russian-deputy-fm.396864/
> 
> and then this thread was created, because the deputy FM of Russia was quoted as saying such & such ..
> 
> PAF Should Go For The F 35---A Coupe De Grace
> 
> Lastly, this thread was created because it was on yahoo's news feed and was an analysis done by Dave Majumar of the nationalinterest.org and for a "western" perception of the topic ..
> 
> Bottom line out of the 4 threads created, 2 were simply news of a Russian expert and a deputy FM saying all what we've heard .. one was an analysis of a Pakistani on how the SU-35 will NOT be part of the PAF and one was an analysis from the point of view of the west ... So instead of lecturing me on how "fan boys" were posting stuff .. how about you ACTUALLY SEE what was posted in the first place ... I find it ironic that you were the one complaining on how we Pakistanis don't see the content ... and yet ... loooky looky ...
> 
> Oh, and I would just like to point out that I quite enjoyed on how the point your trying to prove is that we Pakistanis are short on patience ... while writing like a whole paragraph citing the reasons on why you lost yours ... Lastly, as far as you defending the insults you threw out ... just to add to YOUR vocabulary Myopia is also a synonym for narrow mindedness depending upon the context you use it in ... and then saying XYZ is a problem of a "whole nation" is a generalization which is considered bigotry ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of pretending to be a scholar "writing papers" for "professors" that love their papers in "All CAPS" because they don't have "Myopia" ... how about you pick up the common courtesy of the very same 5th grader that your hoping im not, because we could then actually discuss your one liner argument instead of 3 paragraphs of whining ...
> 
> Have a nice day



Dear Master pseudo-scholar,
i would be honest with u.. i really have no inclination to read ur long devoted comment. simply because i have no motivation left to argue with somebody who as too much time at hand and is interisically a hypocrite of the high order.
You told me to stick to the thread, and i replied to you ONLY because i wanted to put my point accross.
Now, u are just trying to induce me to troll like u.
This is NO WHERE related to the tread. so i wont bother to reply, just as i didnt bother to read ur detailed analysis.
Happy trolling!


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## batmannow

R@m-R@heem said:


> Do humanity a Favour and -
> 
> 
> 
> *Simple fact* : where is the money to buy the jets????
> the budget allocation for your* air force is just over 6 billion USD* for the year *2015-2016*. Even *Two batches of 15 Su35 each will cost u a total of about 2 Billion USD... **(WITHOUT weapons, training, maintenance, logistics etc*) (unit price of 1 Su35 is 65million) . Even if u get a modest credit line and spread the finance for 5-7 years, U will *hold up about 10% of your TOTAL BUDGETED CAPITAL OUTLAY.. every year for the next 5-7 YEARS*.
> 
> And this is *not to mention that PAF has ambitious plans to Modernise* its_ F-16 fleet, Upgrade the JF 17, induct AWACs, build & develop more Drones, Replace old 3rd generation fleet of more than 200 fighters, Upgrade Bases and Radar Installations. . and then of course also pay the salaries to all personnel, ground maintenance, pilots, etc, etc_..
> *So My dearest fella , where is the Money....??????*


First you were trying hard to convince us , that there is no official word from Moscow ?lol
Well you forgot the title of the thread ?Lol
You & many more of our indian fan boys ,couldn't accept or understand the very reason why its coming now ?
Its because of the huge investment of pak-china economic corridor ?
Go learn about it , what is it ?
Then understand that its Chinese who , wants to protect their future investment & the new world order which they are about to explode ?
Russia with its military technology & might is a corner stone , financial base is controlled by Chinese & land routes is under pakistan ?
Mix of all that , will change the history & the MAPS at least in midleast ?
Do you get , who is the financial father of the plan ?
No you won't ?lol
Cause like all of the Indian geniuses you forget to add China ,s decades old role in mentaning Pakistan,s military in ready to go position ?
So dear friend , our budget may looks tiny but our secret financier has the worlds largest USD reserves ?
Stop worrying about our budget & let's be happy & say well come SU-35 to Pakistan ?


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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> I wrote the article. Before calling the article a joke, try addressing the reality that there hasn't even been one verifiable statement proving that talks are taking place. All we have is a Russian official's alleged statement being conveyed to us by just one media source, one. Nothing else. Not only that, but from past precedent (of PAF acquisitions), we know that whenever the PAF is indeed in talks over something, it actually announces it, even in the early stages. All this stuff about China's experience maintaining Flankers and CPEC helping to fund it (when in reality it is a series of investments in economic projects and infrastructure, not military assistance) is irrelevant and worse than speculation. Honest speculation and analyses are great, it lets us broaden our horizons and consider many possibilities, but don't be dishonest and suggest your hypothetical viewpoint is in any way true. You're doing a disservice to all the people who truly do want to see the Su-35 in PAF colours.
> 
> If talks are taking place or if PAF is actually interested, then prove it. Until then, speculate away, but refrain from calling myself or others stupid for maintaining views that are in disagreement with yours. You're free to live in your fantasy, just don't interfere with everyone else's reality. Thanks.


Problem is if there was really nothing in the pipe like what Russian FM said then , why the whole dam Indian media is dying to deny it ?
Some times its hard to face the reality cause its not in your favour ?
If for you Russian deputy FM is not a responsible official then , I think its the fantasy in. Which you are pushing yourself , just to rub off the desperation , & dejection India is about to face , its the total defeat to the Indian aggression with their fake bolly wood prapoganda in the world ?
We loving it ?
Why don't RUSSIAN FM or its MEDIA didn't reported it for srilanka , bangla desh , or Uganda ?
Why its Pakistan & SU -35 ?LOLZZ
Talks are under way its been verified by Russian FM now please come out.of your fake denying fantasy world & accept it as the fact ?



nadeemkhan110 said:


> agree with you but Russia will have to decide because india is creating pressure on Russia on aircraft sale
> Coming soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India? | Asia Times


the times India can put preasure on Russia are gone ?
If still India screw up ,then 70% of its navy ,90 % if its air force & 50% of its army will be waiting for supplies & spares for 2060 from Russia ?
You think they can do that ? No
Also , Americans still can't fill up their own air force with F35 & still have their allies waiting for that ?
It won't give every F-35its building to India ?
So ,its a win win win for Pakistan Russia & China?
India can't do anything ?anymore they knew it.

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## TigerJay

PAF Pilots On Sukhoi's Su-30 Flanker Fighter Jet

What do we make out of these pictures, if Pakistan is not seriously considering Su-35s. I could not find any details regarding this and just the photos. Does anyone know about this and can please explain? Since I can not post a link you can probably Google by the string "PAF Pilots On Sukhoi's Su-30 Flanker Fighter Jet". I saw it on Asian Defence Net

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## batmannow

Not only they makes pics but they were training on that ,& it means SU-35 deal been planned quite a time ago ?
It means also that , our pilots are much fast to learn that ?
Or even they learned it already ?surprise surprise !lolzz

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## R@m-R@heem

batmannow said:


> First you were trying hard to convince us , that there is no official word from Moscow ?lol
> Well you forgot the title of the thread ?Lol
> You & many more of our indian fan boys ,couldn't accept or understand the very reason why its coming now ?
> Its because of the huge investment of pak-china economic corridor ?
> Go learn about it , what is it ?
> Then understand that its Chinese who , wants to protect their future investment & the new world order which they are about to explode ?
> Russia with its military technology & might is a corner stone , financial base is controlled by Chinese & land routes is under pakistan ?
> Mix of all that , will change the history & the MAPS at least in midleast ?
> Do you get , who is the financial father of the plan ?
> No you won't ?lol
> Cause like all of the Indian geniuses you forget to add China ,s decades old role in mentaning Pakistan,s military in ready to go position ?
> So dear friend , our budget may looks tiny but our secret financier has the worlds largest USD reserves ?
> Stop worrying about our budget & let's be happy & say well come SU-35 to Pakistan ?



Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!


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## Asli Lahori1

R@m-R@heem said:


> Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
> Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
> China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
> china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!


 Is it any of your business?


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## R@m-R@heem

batmannow said:


> First you were trying hard to convince us , that there is no official word from Moscow ?lol
> Well you forgot the title of the thread ?Lol
> You & many more of our indian fan boys ,couldn't accept or understand the very reason why its coming now ?
> Its because of the huge investment of pak-china economic corridor ?
> Go learn about it , what is it ?
> Then understand that its Chinese who , wants to protect their future investment & the new world order which they are about to explode ?
> Russia with its military technology & might is a corner stone , financial base is controlled by Chinese & land routes is under pakistan ?
> Mix of all that , will change the history & the MAPS at least in midleast ?
> Do you get , who is the financial father of the plan ?
> No you won't ?lol
> Cause like all of the Indian geniuses you forget to add China ,s decades old role in mentaning Pakistan,s military in ready to go position ?
> So dear friend , our budget may looks tiny but our secret financier has the worlds largest USD reserves ?
> Stop worrying about our budget & let's be happy & say well come SU-35 to Pakistan ?



Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!
and if Pakistan wants to really live to its full potential, then it has to loose this mentality that someone will be your Provider.. see how things went down south when decades old ally - America- turned away from u..??
like *Einstein said - "doing the same thing over and over, in the same way, and expecting the different result each time.. is insanity" DON'T REPETE YOUR PAST MISTAKES... WITH CHINA...*

TH


Asli Lahori1 said:


> Is it any of your business?


THIS IS A DEFENCE FORUM... SO THOUGH IT AINT ANY OF My business.. or Yours asthat matter (unless u are a PAF pilot.). but since, i am a defence enthusiast, any military hardware does become my business .. (even though i dont make money off it as yet ;-) )



Asli Lahori1 said:


> Is it any of your business?


and i would really appreciate if u speak in context of the thread or counter my argument with your logic and reason. .. there are people who get upset quite fast on this forum, if u soo much soo even sneeze out of topic.. soo lets keep on the topic!!


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## Dr Gupta

batmannow said:


> Problem is if there was really nothing in the pipe like what Russian FM said then , why the whole dam Indian media is dying to deny it ?
> Some times its hard to face the reality cause its not in your favour ?
> If for you Russian deputy FM is not a responsible official then , I think its the fantasy in. Which you are pushing yourself , just to rub off the desperation , & dejection India is about to face , its the total defeat to the Indian aggression with their fake bolly wood prapoganda in the world ?
> We loving it ?
> Why don't RUSSIAN FM or its MEDIA didn't reported it for srilanka , bangla desh , or Uganda ?
> Why its Pakistan & SU -35 ?LOLZZ
> Talks are under way its been verified by Russian FM now please come out.of your fake denying fantasy world & accept it as the fact ?
> 
> 
> the times India can put preasure on Russia are gone ?
> If still India screw up ,then 70% of its navy ,90 % if its air force & 50% of its army will be waiting for supplies & spares for 2060 from Russia ?
> You think they can do that ? No
> Also , Americans still can't fill up their own air force with F35 & still have their allies waiting for that ?
> It won't give every F-35its building to India ?
> So ,its a win win win for Pakistan Russia & China?
> India can't do anything ?anymore they knew it.




My friend there is 100's of recent Russian articles that India is interested in this or that and China is set to buy the SU-35 immediately. The bigger picture is Russia is needing $$ as their economy is in deep trouble so they are mounting a PR media campaign.

Russia's Rosneft to sell 15 pct stake in Vankor to India's ONGC| Reuters

Russia-India ties are strong as ever and more so now they really need their friends in these dire times.


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## Skull and Bones

Indus Falcon said:


> But lower than the M2K5



You have neither, the laugh is on you.


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## batmannow

R@m-R@heem said:


> Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
> Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
> China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
> china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!


Russian FM isnt is a Russian govt official ?
Height of denial ?or the raw indian desperation ?lol
Come out of that creepy market mentality , relationships of nations doesn't belong to any market economy ?
China & Pakistan are million times deeper then you think & its not based only on the business ?
If that was the case China must be begging to.India ?lolzz

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## TigerJay

batmannow said:


> Not only they makes pics but they were training on that ,& it means SU-35 deal been planned quite a time ago ?
> It means also that , our pilots are much fast to learn that ?
> Or even they learned it already ?surprise surprise !lolzz



Actually it makes a lot of sense in the current global political scenario that the PAF must seriously be looking forward to add heavies to it's inventory. And with these pictures we can also derive that the China is supporting PAF in this decision. I would take Russian Deputy FM's statement a bit too seriously since Gwadar and Economic Corridor Project will not only be important for China but also for the Russia while it is a threat for Indian and GCC economies.
China is also interested in acquiring these birds, and that too not for having them in the inventory only but to be able to reverse engineer the technology. Since they will not be purchasing as many as the Russians may want them to, a good deal would be that the numbers are hyped up by adding another buyer in the deal. Also because China has nothing potent enough to offer to PAF to plug the balance gap, they I am very sure are considering to help Pakistan get these babies. JF 17s are no alternate to Su-35s and not any other plane that China can offer in the near future. I see everything going in the favour of PAF purchasing Su35s

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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> My friend there is 100's of recent Russian articles that India is interested in this or that and China is set to buy the SU-35 immediately. The bigger picture is Russia is needing $$ as their economy is in deep trouble so they are mounting a PR media campaign.
> 
> Russia's Rosneft to sell 15 pct stake in Vankor to India's ONGC| Reuters
> 
> Russia-India ties are strong as ever and more so now they really need their friends in these dire times.


Never any Russian FM ever gave any statement on any of the. Disscuaed issue ?



Dr Gupta said:


> My friend there is 100's of recent Russian articles that India is interested in this or that and China is set to buy the SU-35 immediately. The bigger picture is Russia is needing $$ as their economy is in deep trouble so they are mounting a PR media campaign.
> 
> Russia's Rosneft to sell 15 pct stake in Vankor to India's ONGC| Reuters
> 
> Russia-India ties are strong as ever and more so now they really need their friends in these dire times.


Never any Russian FM ever gave any statement on any of the. Disscuaed issue ?


Dr Gupta said:


> My friend there is 100's of recent Russian articles that India is interested in this or that and China is set to buy the SU-35 immediately. The bigger picture is Russia is needing $$ as their economy is in deep trouble so they are mounting a PR media campaign.
> 
> Russia's Rosneft to sell 15 pct stake in Vankor to India's ONGC| Reuters
> 
> Russia-India ties are strong as ever and more so now they really need their friends in these dire times.


& you think India has more money then China to invest or support Russia ?funny ?lolzz


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## Dr Gupta

batmannow said:


> Never any Russian FM ever gave any statement on any of the. Disscuaed issue ?



Actually due to the language issue there was a slight misinterpretation, he quoted 'Pakistan is a close partner' not closest. Russians would sell to anyone who has the funds and hard $$ but they are not stupid as they know that India is key when it comes to defence and energy ties.

No China is miles ahead of India but India is still a bigger arms buyer than China is in the Russian market.


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## Quwa

batmannow said:


> Problem is if there was really nothing in the pipe like what Russian FM said then , why the whole dam Indian media is dying to deny it ?
> Some times its hard to face the reality cause its not in your favour ?
> If for you Russian deputy FM is not a responsible official then , I think its the fantasy in. Which you are pushing yourself , just to rub off the desperation , & dejection India is about to face , its the total defeat to the Indian aggression with their fake bolly wood prapoganda in the world ?
> We loving it ?
> Why don't RUSSIAN FM or its MEDIA didn't reported it for srilanka , bangla desh , or Uganda ?
> Why its Pakistan & SU -35 ?LOLZZ
> Talks are under way its been verified by Russian FM now please come out.of your fake denying fantasy world & accept it as the fact ?
> 
> 
> the times India can put preasure on Russia are gone ?
> If still India screw up ,then 70% of its navy ,90 % if its air force & 50% of its army will be waiting for supplies & spares for 2060 from Russia ?
> You think they can do that ? No
> Also , Americans still can't fill up their own air force with F35 & still have their allies waiting for that ?
> It won't give every F-35its building to India ?
> So ,its a win win win for Pakistan Russia & China?
> India can't do anything ?anymore they knew it.


Again, the problem is that there is only one source claiming that the Deputy FM made that statement, no one else, not the multiple journalists apparently there, not the Russian government, not the industry vendors, not the Russian body actually involved in negotiating overseas arms sales? Just an alleged statement conveyed to us by one source? That's insufficient authenticity, and that's not something anyone should use in order assess whether something of this nature is actually happening or not.

Can you corroborate that statement via another source?


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## Dr Gupta

Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes


"You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face," Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan.


Take things with a pinch of salt as the situation is Russia vs nato


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## Indus Falcon

Skull and Bones said:


> You have neither, the laugh is on you.



Actually it's on the country that was thumping it's chest about buying 126 Rafales with ToT, which came down to 36, and now............?

Secondly, the number of Indians ranting about why Russia shouldn't sell, or won't sell, the SU35 to Pakistan is testament to the fact, of who you really are!

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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> 
> "You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face," Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Take things with a pinch of salt as the situation is Russia vs nato


And Russia sold Mi35 after that so.....?

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## Khanivore

R@m-R@heem said:


> THIS IS A DEFENCE FORUM... SO THOUGH IT AINT ANY OF My business..


Back to CAPS again to shout your opinion? You're really pushing it.



TigerJay said:


> Actually it makes a lot of sense in the current global political scenario that the PAF must seriously be looking forward to add heavies to it's inventory. And with these pictures we can also derive that the China is supporting PAF in this decision. I would take Russian Deputy FM's statement a bit too seriously since Gwadar and Economic Corridor Project will not only be important for China but also for the Russia while it is a threat for Indian and GCC economies.
> China is also interested in acquiring these birds, and that too not for having them in the inventory only but to be able to reverse engineer the technology. Since they will not be purchasing as many as the Russians may want them to, a good deal would be that the numbers are hyped up by adding another buyer in the deal. Also because China has nothing potent enough to offer to PAF to plug the balance gap, they I am very sure are considering to help Pakistan get these babies. JF 17s are no alternate to Su-35s and not any other plane that China can offer in the near future. I see everything going in the favour of PAF purchasing Su35s


My thoughts exactly and thank you for sharing it bro. It makes since that China is quite possibly the reason behind the negotiations for Su-35. In the short-term this platform has the best potential to be the most cost-effective game changer which will boost PAF's capabilities and projection of air cover over Pakistan and in the Arabian Sea region considerably. It's time for PAF to come out of the shadow and flex some muscle.

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## Dr Gupta

Humble Analyst said:


> And Russia sold Mi35 after that so.....?



That's the point I am making, Russia will sell to *anyone *who has the $$ but they are not stupid either to sell SU-35 and expect India to carry on as business like usual.

The Russian economy is in a real pickle right now as the oil price is really low and sanctions have hurt so they need hard $$ right now.

Russia''s Economy Minister Says GDP Shrinking More Than Expected - NASDAQ.com


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## Skull and Bones

Indus Falcon said:


> Actually it's on the country that was thumping it's chest about buying 126 Rafales with ToT, which came down to 36, and now............?
> 
> Secondly, the number of Indians ranting about why Russia shouldn't sell, or won't sell, the SU35 to Pakistan is testament to the fact, of who you really are!



First get your hands on Su-35s before ranting.


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## Chanakyaa

Indus Falcon said:


> Actually it's on the country that was thumping it's chest about buying 126 Rafales with ToT, which came down to 36, and now............?
> 
> Secondly, the number of Indians ranting about why Russia shouldn't sell, or won't sell, the SU35 to Pakistan is testament to the fact, of who you really are!



I guess you missed an interesting Thread , @MastanKhan over 126 MMRCA. Guess what, Many projects during Cold war, the really costly ones were simply "rumoured" and "dragged" to bleed USSR, which spend over 10-20% of GDP on Defence.

Rest is history. Welcome to "Eco" War !


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## Khanivore

Viper0011. said:


> Back on the topic, anyone knows anything further about the SU-35?


No not yet but it'll be interesting to see what comes up next re: Su-35.


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## wiseone2

RazorMC said:


> There were already segments in Washington that were willing to offer the F-35 to India provided it makes financial contribution to the project. What it would receive was the option to buy the aircraft once they became available and the option to manufacture certain components in India itself.
> 
> IAF was more interested in obtaining the Rafale under a ToT which would make it more manageable and financially viable in the long run.
> 
> Wrt Su-35, they are not on offer to Pakistan at this time. Russia will not provide any hardware that poses a serious risk to the Indian military.



Russia can sell the Su-35 to Pakistan. I have no objection to the sale of 40 aircraft if the Russians do not finance the deal.
The PAF will have the headaches of maintenance of another combat aircraft

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## abdulbarijan

R@m-R@heem said:


> Dear Master pseudo-scholar,
> i would be honest with u.. i really have no inclination to read ur long devoted comment. simply because i have no motivation left to argue with somebody who as too much time at hand and is interisically a hypocrite of the high order.
> You told me to stick to the thread, and i replied to you ONLY because i wanted to put my point accross.
> Now, u are just trying to induce me to troll like u.
> This is NO WHERE related to the tread. so i wont bother to reply, just as i didnt bother to read ur detailed analysis.
> Happy trolling!



I see, you never went through the post that completely destroyed your point of "fan boys posting their random wish lists" -- while you retaliate based off the way I called out your "writing papers" "for professors" "who prefer all CAPS" tirade etc. which was a part of the same post you claimed you never went through ..... 



R@m-R@heem said:


> Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
> Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
> China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
> china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!
> and if Pakistan wants to really live to its full potential, then it has to loose this mentality that someone will be your Provider.. see how things went down south when decades old ally - America- turned away from u..??
> like *Einstein said - "doing the same thing over and over, in the same way, and expecting the different result each time.. is insanity" DON'T REPETE YOUR PAST MISTAKES... WITH CHINA...*
> 
> TH
> 
> THIS IS A DEFENCE FORUM... SO THOUGH IT AINT ANY OF My business.. or Yours asthat matter (unless u are a PAF pilot.). but since, i am a defence enthusiast, any military hardware does become my business .. (even though i dont make money off it as yet ;-) )
> 
> 
> and i would really appreciate if u speak in context of the thread or counter my argument with your logic and reason. .. there are people who get upset quite fast on this forum, if u soo much soo even sneeze out of topic.. soo lets keep on the topic!!



I'm among the biggest skeptics of this so called "sale" -- yet your point is totally bonkers .. you say there is no official word ... Doesn't a "Deputy Foreign minister" count as an official word ??--

http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-holding-talks-on-sale-of-su-35-confirms-russian-deputy-foreign-minister/ 

Or maybe an Indian based website quoting the same thing ... Does that counts as an "official word" now ?? ---

_What I find the funniest is the attitude of _*"ohh Russia won't do it to us" "We won't let them" -- Guess what -- It already has! *-- When you decide to diversify your suppliers from Russian to the west ... infact you go to US, someone Russia considers as a rival if not an outright adversary --- The result will simply be along the lines of ... "you reap what you sow ..."

So while this deal may never happen -- It's a clear direction of what is to follow ..._ India has become a victim of its own games ... where it brings in huge orders and tries to block a mutual supplier from trying to do business with Pakistan_, example being the MMRCA and the cancellation of the JFT upgrades ... or putting pressure on Russia not to sell us equipment---

The end result today is ... your MMRCA is falling apart where talks are now reserved to 1/3rd of the original strength planned for induction ... We've all seen the time limits of 1 month, 10 days etc. and it turns out-- the MMRCA deal even for the cut short deal will take alot longer then expected ... and _the French have you by the balls ... where one day they are not satisfied by HAL, and on the other day are talking about re-opening the deal for JFT upgrades ---_

_The same being case with the Russians, where you tried to block the supply for RD-93 ... which did not work btw as 55 JFT's are in service with RD_93's and talks for an upgraded RD-93 in 2018 if the need is felt for block III to have a new upgraded engine ... The fact that we have been given the nod to buy the J-10's with Russian AL-31's after the speculation was "we can only get J-10 if Chinese get their WS-10 operational on J-10 and the engine satisfies the credentials of PAF" and now the talks for SU-35 being revealed by the Russian officials..... *This may not signify a deal .. but does signify the fact that India may have business with Russia ... but when India can go and purchase from a rival i.e USA .. then Russia also reserves the same right of not protecting Indian interests and dealing with an arch rival of India's ..*_

Lastly, when you talk of the monetary issues, you should remember what the current fuss about arming PAF with a heavy fighter is all about ... it's about giving an aerial arm to the PN and protecting Chinese investment in CPEC ... So it is not merely the need of PAF, it's also a Chinese need to protect their investment ... Hence you may not see a deal just yet ... but with the way talks are progressing where former officials holding high posts are agreeing with the need being created for a heavy fighter with CPEC .. you never know ...

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## R@m-R@heem

Khanivore said:


> Back to CAPS again to shout your opinion? You're really pushing it.
> 
> 
> My thoughts exactly and thank you for sharing it bro. It makes since that China is quite possibly the reason behind the negotiations for Su-35. In the short-term this platform has the best potential to be the most cost-effective game changer which will boost PAF's capabilities and projection of air cover over Pakistan and in the Arabian Sea region considerably. It's time for PAF to come out of the shadow and flex some muscle.



@TigerJay : when will Pakistan find its OWN two Feet and Learn to Stand on them?? always looking for freebees...?? 
You need to be self reliant if u ever want to have an independent Foreign or National policy.. AND be ACTULLY recognised as a Serious Nation on an international forum... Early years of independence u looked at USA (while india looked at the USSR), but u need to let go sometime and DEVELOP like india has been trying to do since 1985, and now we are reaping the rewards- LCA Tejas, AGNI series, We will fully Self reliant in Radar technologies by 2020) but practically sold ur soul to that country of Capitalists in exchange of a mindless defence acquisition races with india, its harmfull for ur own economy.. please try and understand the point i am making here instead of getting grumpy and taking offence.. 

@Khanivore : when CAPS are used, it means that the "user" is trying to EMPHASIZE on that word in his sentence.. that's language #101 for u. (stop trying to shoot me down.. u cant!)



batmannow said:


> Russian FM isnt is a Russian govt official ?
> Height of denial ?or the raw indian desperation ?lol
> Come out of that creepy market mentality , relationships of nations doesn't belong to any market economy ?
> China & Pakistan are million times deeper then you think & its not based only on the business ?
> If that was the case China must be begging to.India ?lolzz



Russian FM hasnt made a PUBLIC statement. its a ,media speculation!
U know, its said, that the real depth of ANY relationship is when there is a point of diffrence between the two sides... but Pakistan has a tendency of Getting soo dependent on the other nation( first the USA, now CHINA) that u find yourself in a position where u are Unable to say NO... even when it is the other country (read- USA) is bombing ur own country FROM the Air bases Located INSIDE your own territory. . u wanna laugh to that fact??
look at what india COULD DO with the USA when our diplomat was detained wrongly.. we withdrew ALL additional security from US embassy , withdrew ALL Special privileges, we even went on to ask for their personal details with a silent threat to detain those who were gays (as it is banned in our country).. Yet look at India-Us today.. just a few months after that row. .. i am not saying that we share veryy warm relations with the US, but emphasizing the fact that NO one.. not even the Super Power can Dominate our policy!! its equal footing relation.. not where US is our Mai-baap,,



abdulbarijan said:


> I see, you never went through the post that completely destroyed your point of "fan boys posting their random wish lists" -- while you retaliate based off the way I called out your "writing papers" "for professors" "who prefer all CAPS" tirade etc. which was a part of the same post you claimed you never went through .....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm among the biggest skeptics of this so called "sale" -- yet your point is totally bonkers .. you say there is no official word ... Doesn't a "Deputy Foreign minister" count as an official word ??--
> 
> http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-holding-talks-on-sale-of-su-35-confirms-russian-deputy-foreign-minister/
> 
> Or maybe an Indian based website quoting the same thing ... Does that counts as an "official word" now ?? ---
> 
> _What I find the funniest is the attitude of _*"ohh Russia won't do it to us" "We won't let them" -- Guess what -- It already has! *-- When you decide to diversify your suppliers from Russian to the west ... infact you go to US, someone Russia considers as a rival if not an outright adversary --- The result will simply be along the lines of ... "you reap what you sow ..."
> 
> So while this deal may never happen -- It's a clear direction of what is to follow ..._ India has become a victim of its own games ... where it brings in huge orders and tries to block a mutual supplier from trying to do business with Pakistan_, example being the MMRCA and the cancellation of the JFT upgrades ... or putting pressure on Russia not to sell us equipment---
> 
> The end result today is ... your MMRCA is falling apart where talks are now reserved to 1/3rd of the original strength planned for induction ... We've all seen the time limits of 1 month, 10 days etc. and it turns out-- the MMRCA deal even for the cut short deal will take alot longer then expected ... and _the French have you by the balls ... where one day they are not satisfied by HAL, and on the other day are talking about re-opening the deal for JFT upgrades ---_
> 
> _The same being case with the Russians, where you tried to block the supply for RD-93 ... which did not work btw as 55 JFT's are in service with RD_93's and talks for an upgraded RD-93 in 2018 if the need is felt for block III to have a new upgraded engine ... The fact that we have been given the nod to buy the J-10's with Russian AL-31's after the speculation was "we can only get J-10 if Chinese get their WS-10 operational on J-10 and the engine satisfies the credentials of PAF" and now the talks for SU-35 being revealed by the Russian officials..... *This may not signify a deal .. but does signify the fact that India may have business with Russia ... but when India can go and purchase from a rival i.e USA .. then Russia also reserves the same right of not protecting Indian interests and dealing with an arch rival of India's ..*_
> 
> Lastly, when you talk of the monetary issues, you should remember what the current fuss about arming PAF with a heavy fighter is all about ... it's about giving an aerial arm to the PN and protecting Chinese investment in CPEC ... So it is not merely the need of PAF, it's also a Chinese need to protect their investment ... Hence you may not see a deal just yet ... but with the way talks are progressing where former officials holding high posts are agreeing with the need being created for a heavy fighter with CPEC .. you never know ...



Hey, 
i refused to read after the first few lines.. think what ever u want to .. i figured that all that time u "invested", was again trying to induce me to troll with personal & COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC stuff. .. and since it does not add to the forum's needs.
U are Again ignored.
thanks soo much for wasting your time on a comment i Never bothered to read past the first 2 lines!

PS: if u have something related to topic, then drop the gimmick and write JUST that.or il have to start reporting ur comments.. thought i'd give u a heads up.
Cheers


----------



## abdulbarijan

R@m-R@heem said:


> Hey,
> i refused to read after the first few lines.. think what ever u want to .. i figured that all that time u "invested", was again trying to induce me to troll with personal & COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC stuff. .. and since it does not add to the forum's needs.
> U are Again ignored.
> thanks soo much for wasting your time on a comment i Never bothered to read past the first 2 lines!
> 
> PS: if u have something related to topic, then drop the gimmick and write JUST that.or il have to start reporting ur comments.. thought i'd give u a heads up.
> Cheers



I expected as much -- so the answer to your criticism on
*
-Monetary situation of Pakistan
-How there is no official word on the negotiations 
-The policy of protecting India's interests etc etc. is ALL "off topic" --- *

and thank you for writing a "detailed" answer like you do for your "professors" on how your "ignoring" my responses .. I say detailed because clearly --- 4 or 5 paragraphs of reason are a little too big of a reading for you .. so please by all means continue to ignore me while I continue to own you .. 

About reporting me, you should if you think I've committed any offense or have broken forum rules ... *I merely addressed your pointers one by one which you admitted to ignore and "Not read past the first two lines" -- yet your claiming I was off topic based on the first 2 lines of a detailed response highlighting the flaws in the points you rose ...*

P.S -- atleast you admit to 'ignorance' .. part of solving a problem is realizing you have one .. lastly, about my "gimmick" -- I don't think I've backed up my shouting in the forum as me "writing a paper" to "professors" cuz "they prefer CAPS" -- no that was all you ... Quite ironic its you who does all the yapping and Im the one whose "off topic" and has a "gimmick"



R@m-R@heem said:


> Russian FM hasnt made a PUBLIC statement. its a ,media speculation!





> "Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters,* Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported."*
> “I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides.”
> "Just last year, Russia’s Rostec hi-tech corporation CEO Sergey Chemezov announced that Russia had lifted its embargo on the delivery of armaments and military hardware to Pakistan.."



*Reported by:-*

Russia-Pakistan holding talks on Sale of Su-35 Confirms Russian Deputy Foreign Minister | idrw.org

*Ryabkov refers to Pakistan as Russia’s closest partner

*

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## BORN TO BE REAL

batmannow said:


> Pakistan needs new pair of AIR -PUNCH , our decades old & over used & over projected F-16 needs a father shadow in the skies ?
> Su35 are way better then all of its family , & has the capability to be a 5th generation fighter ?
> Then again its another waste full minds debating about single engine vs double engine ?
> As a PRO-AIRFORCE we need all of art ?
> Double or single we need a beast in the air , which can show up in a dog fight & give a blowing last punch to our enemies ?
> Let's say 50+ SU 35 PAF will take out the breath of anyone at longest of the targets ?


i am agree with you thatr SU 35 is a great coice for PAF, PAF needs such birds to tackle MIGs of india.

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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> Again, the problem is that there is only one source claiming that the Deputy FM made that statement, no one else, not the multiple journalists apparently there, not the Russian government, not the industry vendors, not the Russian body actually involved in negotiating overseas arms sales? Just an alleged statement conveyed to us by one source? That's insufficient authenticity, and that's not something anyone should use in order assess whether something of this nature is actually happening or not.
> 
> Can you corroborate that statement via another source?


One source is enough if that is their premire source ?
& actually there is no denial , even the Russian embsy in Delhi ?
Even after the dam whole India started to cry ?
If there was nothing , Russian embsy would have said straight that no we are not doing any deal with Pakistan ?
All you have is doubts about the source but there is nothing concrete to challenge it or to deney that ?
In that sense , you are just trying to clam down the desperation ?
Russian DEPTUY FM is not Putin's kid , who is having an affair , & later will deney that ?
*Sputnik news agency is the official Russian news agency started by its govt in 2013 ?
Just dont close your eyes on that & that's enough as a source ?*


Dr Gupta said:


> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> 
> "You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face," Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Take things with a pinch of salt as the situation is Russia vs nato


Sure for them Pakistan is not India,s enemy ?
America is ?lol



Dr Gupta said:


> Actually due to the language issue there was a slight misinterpretation, he quoted 'Pakistan is a close partner' not closest. Russians would sell to anyone who has the funds and hard $$ but they are not stupid as they know that India is key when it comes to defence and energy ties.
> 
> No China is miles ahead of India but India is still a bigger arms buyer than China is in the Russian market.


I think you need to spend few months on Google before stating that India is bigger buyers of Russian arms then China ?
China is not the buyer of their arms but the only huge investor/partner of their all super projects ?
So , China has the cash & its influence on Russia to sell the SU-35 to Pakistan & secure the economic corridor its has started in pakistan from india & its SU-30 STRIKE FORCE for ever ?lol


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## vizier

If you utilize its strengths a great plane. For navy protection of your subs and trade routes its range and high payload suits nicely. For supporting interceptors like Jf 17 you can use it like awacs coordinating attacks and long range a2a attacks. Having low numbers for deep a2g and antiship mission would be risky it is not stealthy but ew if capable you can hit and run from stand off ranges.Also it is a large plane that needs large air bases to operate.It cant use highway strips or frontline smaller bases like frontline interceptors.Hide them in shelters and camouflage.Build wooden decoys perhaps to protect expensive assets.

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## batmannow

vizier said:


> If you utilize its strengths a great plane. For navy protection of your subs and trade routes its range and high payload suits nicely. For supporting interceptors like Jf 17 you can use it like awacs coordinating attacks and long range a2a attacks. Having low numbers for deep a2g and antiship mission would be risky it is not stealthy but ew if capable you can hit and run from stand off ranges.Also it is a large plane that needs large air bases to operate.It cant use highway strips or frontline smaller bases like frontline interceptors.Hide them in shelters and camouflage.Build wooden decoys perhaps to protect expensive assets.


No worries , still it is the best remaining option for PAF & PN it can give protective cover in deep deep sea & also can go up to down to indian territory at its will ?
That's what we need & we are getting it ?

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## majid mehmood

Russia to sell 12 Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan

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## Dr Gupta

batmannow said:


> One source is enough if that is their premire source ?
> & actually there is no denial , even the Russian embsy in Delhi ?
> Even after the dam whole India started to cry ?
> If there was nothing , Russian embsy would have said straight that no we are not doing any deal with Pakistan ?
> All you have is doubts about the source but there is nothing concrete to challenge it or to deney that ?
> In that sense , you are just trying to clam down the desperation ?
> Russian DEPTUY FM is not Putin's kid , who is having an affair , & later will deney that ?
> *Sputnik news agency is the official Russian news agency started by its govt in 2013 ?
> Just dont close your eyes on that & that's enough as a source ?*
> 
> Sure for them Pakistan is not India,s enemy ?
> America is ?lol
> 
> 
> I think you need to spend few months on Google before stating that India is bigger buyers of Russian arms then China ?
> China is not the buyer of their arms but the only huge investor/partner of their all super projects ?
> So , China has the cash & its influence on Russia to sell the SU-35 to Pakistan & secure the economic corridor its has started in pakistan from india & its SU-30 STRIKE FORCE for ever ?lol




Kid you still do not understand  this is all about money and the state of the current economic climate the Russians are facing, when you grasp that it will be clear to you.


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## aliyusuf

@Dr Gupta 
Your reference link : Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes is 3 years old. Situation has changed since then. Especially in the last year and a half.

It is a major break through that Russia and Pakistan even had a talk on the Su-35, the premiere Russian fighter at the moment. It is too premature, I agree, to even speculate whether this is going to progress further or a deal will actually materialize. But the talks itself is a huge step forward and probably is an indicator of the way things are headed in the future.

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## !eon

Dr Gupta said:


> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes


Russia won't arm India's enemies. What is China then ? 
Pakistan already getting engines for JF-17 from Russia, which is going to be back bone PAF.

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## New Resolve

We could just as easily get a couple of J11D squadrons if we need a maritime fighter to protect our sea lanes. It does seem though that the Russians want to play ball as well since the Indians gave them the middle finger over MMRCA fiasco.


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## Quwa

batmannow said:


> One source is enough if that is their premire source ?
> & actually there is no denial , even the Russian embsy in Delhi ?
> Even after the dam whole India started to cry ?
> If there was nothing , Russian embsy would have said straight that no we are not doing any deal with Pakistan ?
> All you have is doubts about the source but there is nothing concrete to challenge it or to deney that ?
> In that sense , you are just trying to clam down the desperation ?
> Russian DEPTUY FM is not Putin's kid , who is having an affair , & later will deney that ?
> *Sputnik news agency is the official Russian news agency started by its govt in 2013 ?
> Just dont close your eyes on that & that's enough as a source ?*
> 
> Sure for them Pakistan is not India,s enemy ?
> America is ?lol
> 
> 
> I think you need to spend few months on Google before stating that India is bigger buyers of Russian arms then China ?
> China is not the buyer of their arms but the only huge investor/partner of their all super projects ?
> So , China has the cash & its influence on Russia to sell the SU-35 to Pakistan & secure the economic corridor its has started in pakistan from india & its SU-30 STRIKE FORCE for ever ?lol


OK fair enough. Let's hope the negotiations are real and will lead somewhere.


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## Windjammer

Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.

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## RAMPAGE

Windjammer said:


> Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.


Na karo?


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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> OK fair enough. Let's hope the negotiations are real and will lead somewhere.


That's a positive post !
Agreed on it !
But the thread should be stop cause its existence is just a speculation from no where ?



Dr Gupta said:


> Kid you still do not understand  this is all about money and the state of the current economic climate the Russians are facing, when you grasp that it will be clear to you.


Toddler , I'm a proud Pakistani enjoyed the sniping eye balls of your soilders in kargill ?lolzzz
Yes that's about , the money & state relationship & China Pakistan & Russia are on their level best in the history ?lolzz
Su-35 is comming to Pakistan .



aliyusuf said:


> @Dr Gupta
> Your reference link : Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes is 3 years old. Situation has changed since then. Especially in the last year and a half.
> 
> It is a major break through that Russia and Pakistan even had a talk on the Su-35, the premiere Russian fighter at the moment. It is too premature, I agree, to even speculate whether this is going to progress further or a deal will actually materialize. But the talks itself is a huge step forward and probably is an indicator of the way things are headed in the future.


Remember one thing if there was nothing & just talks were initiated then Russian FM never had talked about it ?
So its more a desperate media denial ,which India is in it & its wants to push into your mind?
I have posted pics here ,PAF pilots are in training on Chinese SU-30s why ?

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## batmannow

Windjammer said:


> Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.


Sir,
That's real deal , & we are getting our target sights well done on indian navy ?lolzz



New Resolve said:


> We could just as easily get a couple of J11D squadrons if we need a maritime fighter to protect our sea lanes. It does seem though that the Russians want to play ball as well since the Indians gave them the middle finger over MMRCA fiasco.


Its been stated a million times J-11 s can't be sold another country , Russia don't allow that ?
Get it & stop hitting the wall pls ?

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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> I have posted pics here ,PAF pilots are in training on Chinese SU-30s why ?



Good point!

Getting hands on with the Su-30 Flanker during a joint exercise which has just taken place or is currently still going on, while this news from an official Russian source ... well if the dots are joined ... they do seem to be pointing towards something.


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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Good point!
> 
> Getting hands on with the Su-30 Flanker during a joint exercise which has just taken place or is currently still going on, while this news from an official Russian source ... well if the dots are joined ... they do seem to be pointing towards something.


Russia & China always believed that POWER FLOWS FROM THE BAREEL OF A GUN?
They are just securing their future , & will do whatever it takes ?
They tried their best to engage India for a reasonable frienship with Pakistan so , current group gets more heavy weight in it ?
But as we all know India was over The top of newly found friend america that , if they keep themselves with america against China they will get , a permanent seat in UN security council ?
That was just a trap & a fuel to put India against China , which never worked & now both Russia & China sees it as a threat , which they will shoot down by giving Pakistan more heavy toys like SU-35s ?


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## Windjammer

RAMPAGE said:


> Na karo?



Kiou nai..../aub tu thora dil bi karta hey.


batmannow said:


> Sir,
> That's real deal , & we are getting our target sights well done on indian navy ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Its been stated a million times J-11 s can't be sold another country , Russia don't allow that ?
> Get it & stop hitting the wall pls ?



The best thing is as the Air Chief said, we are looking both East and West, means we have the option to buy from various sources.

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## TigerJay

R@m-R@heem said:


> @TigerJay : when will Pakistan find its OWN two Feet and Learn to Stand on them?? always looking for freebees...??
> You need to be self reliant if u ever want to have an independent Foreign or National policy.. AND be ACTULLY recognised as a Serious Nation on an international forum... Early years of independence u looked at USA (while india looked at the USSR), but u need to let go sometime and DEVELOP like india has been trying to do since 1985, and now we are reaping the rewards- LCA Tejas, AGNI series, We will fully Self reliant in Radar technologies by 2020) but practically sold ur soul to that country of Capitalists in exchange of a mindless defence acquisition races with india, its harmfull for ur own economy.. please try and understand the point i am making here instead of getting grumpy and taking offence..



You know what the problem here is, you're jumping from one thing to another. We are particularly discussing if Pakistan and Russia are getting into a deal for Su-35s. If you want to discuss Self Reliant Policy of Pakistan you probably need to start another thread. Which I is see quite unlikely. You're just some kid who wants to satisfy his nationalistic honour and pretending to be know-it-all. I have no interest at the moment in discussing Pakistani or Indian Economy. You don't want me to get grumpy at you, please don't start with me. And just a mere suggestion if you really want to learn something out of discussions, please stick to the topic - one thing at a time my friend. Just for a counter counter argument I could ask when will India learn to rather feed it's ever growing poor population, or rather invest in public toilets before they get into developing missile tech and or 5th gen fighter jets, but really that's not the discussion here. So before you speak again try and learn some manners.

P.S. Do a spell check before you post, it makes you look less stupid.


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## batmannow

Windjammer said:


> Kiou nai..../aub tu thora dil bi karta hey.
> 
> 
> The best thing is as the Air Chief said, we are looking both East and West, means we have the option to buy from various sources.


Or may he just wants to let Indian media speculate till deal is done ?lolzz
Russian arms are the best option cause most being used by our great dragon & in that case we don't have any worries of sanctions & not getting spares if it ?

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## RAMPAGE

Windjammer said:


> Kiou nai..../aub tu thora dil bi karta hey.




Dekh lo ...... Maamla khatarnak he!

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## aliyusuf

Windjammer said:


> Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.



In a recent interview in which he stated that PAF would be looking for the next generation fighter towards both east and west ... he also mentioned that PAF is going to concentrate a lot on *force multipliers.*


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## Muhammad Omar

Windjammer said:


> Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.


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## TigerJay

New Resolve said:


> We could just as easily get a couple of J11D squadrons if we need a maritime fighter to protect our sea lanes. It does seem though that the Russians want to play ball as well since the Indians gave them the middle finger over MMRCA fiasco.



First of all, not easily. It involves Russia again. Secondly why to invest in J11Ds when you can get your hands on Su35s. J11s are not at all comparable with Su35s at all and which is why China is also interested in buying the same planes from Russia.

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## Windjammer

aliyusuf said:


> In a recent interview in which he stated that PAF would be looking for the next generation fighter towards both east and west ... he also mentioned that PAF is going to concentrate a lot on *force multipliers.*


yes indeed, for a small air force like the PAF, this is a neccesary option.

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## banvanaxl

@waz, @Arsalan @Oscar @Slav Defence

You don't want us Indians here, Please Sir, say so, we'll march out of here enmasse.

When you tolerate and condone this kind of language, it really sends a very wrong message for every one concerned here, with all due respect.


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## BORN TO BE REAL

batmannow said:


> No worries , still it is the best remaining option for PAF & PN it can give protective cover in deep deep sea & also can go up to down to indian territory at its will ?
> That's what we need & we are getting it ?


agreed with your kind words, this is the way the patriots think about the country, well done , bravo zullo.



vizier said:


> If you utilize its strengths a great plane. For navy protection of your subs and trade routes its range and high payload suits nicely. For supporting interceptors like Jf 17 you can use it like awacs coordinating attacks and long range a2a attacks. Having low numbers for deep a2g and antiship mission would be risky it is not stealthy but ew if capable you can hit and run from stand off ranges.Also it is a large plane that needs large air bases to operate.It cant use highway strips or frontline smaller bases like frontline interceptors.Hide them in shelters and camouflage.Build wooden decoys perhaps to protect expensive assets.


agreed with above remarks, a very thorough comment on the use of su35, and what a sumup of a paragraph in which both ata and atg capabilities are discussed, well done.



RAMPAGE said:


> Na karo?


Air chiief ko janay do, insha Allah achha ho ga

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## alee92nawaz

TigerJay said:


> First of all, not easily. It involves Russia again. Secondly why to invest in J11Ds when you can get your hands on Su35s. J11s are not at all comparable with Su35s at all and which is why China is also interested in buying the same planes from Russia.


J-11D is a copy of Soviet flanker...n its less equipped than the other...
Su-35 is the best russia has to offer ...they will not let Chinese kill their sale....
Su-35 is well suited for navy or paf requirements...
And I gues we can afford 36 sukhois..
Russians will say to india that such small amount of jets doesn't puts them in danger...
-and these things only apply if this news is accurate..china times also reported it..


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## Asli Lahori1

R@m-R@heem said:


> Dear Batmanforever/ Darkknightreturns/ Batman&Robin:
> Anyone can name any thread as anything.. Even "Pakistan overthrows USA to become superpower".. it is JUST a thread started by someone like u or me.. Nothing Official asyet as far as the su 35 is concerned. mi-35 YES, but nothing on su35.. acceptance nor denial from either of the spokesperson from the two govts. At most, the media houses have been speculating that "negotiations are under-way". and for what i understand, this su35 is a rumour, the real deal under negotiation is the mi 35 chopper. Now keeping this aside, the fact also is that Pakistan cant afford the fighters, and no other country will sponsor it for u, neither China and definitely NOT Russia ( India wont allow the deal.. anyone who is aware of the geo politics is aware of it)
> China has been ur close partner, but if u see , then Pakistan is a market for Chinese military hardware. if china "funds" su35 for u, then it will give u a plane at par with itself.. something, it hasnt done with Pakistan even with the J 10 as of now.
> china will give soft loans to Pakistan, but to buy more jf 17's or maybe when it offers j10's (3-5 years from now). this way, it can keep its own factories running, while also keeping a higher hand to Pakistan (as a friend, ally and more importantly a "Provider"), in exchange for military bases to protect its own interests in the central Asia in pretext of "training PAf" or as a small joint command in the central Asia. Everything is Just business at the en of the day. Quid-pro-quo.. nothing else!
> and if Pakistan wants to really live to its full potential, then it has to loose this mentality that someone will be your Provider.. see how things went down south when decades old ally - America- turned away from u..??
> like *Einstein said - "doing the same thing over and over, in the same way, and expecting the different result each time.. is insanity" DON'T REPETE YOUR PAST MISTAKES... WITH CHINA...*
> 
> TH
> 
> THIS IS A DEFENCE FORUM... SO THOUGH IT AINT ANY OF My business.. or Yours asthat matter (unless u are a PAF pilot.). but since, i am a defence enthusiast, any military hardware does become my business .. (even though i dont make money off it as yet ;-) )
> 
> 
> and i would really appreciate if u speak in context of the thread or counter my argument with your logic and reason. .. there are people who get upset quite fast on this forum, if u soo much soo even sneeze out of topic.. soo lets keep on the topic!!



Defense enthusiast or a Jealous Indian? Is it any of your business to deny news where you don't have an iota of information. Or you are a Russian official? Or Pakistani official? So again is it any of your Business?

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## alee92nawaz

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Defense enthusiast or a Jealous Indian? Is it any of your business to deny news where you don't have an iota of information. Or you are a Russian official? Or Pakistani official? So again is it any of your Business?


Pakistan needs long range fighters now especially to protect cpec...China refused the offer of military bases so we have to do something...at least for


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## TigerJay

alee92nawaz said:


> J-11D is a copy of Soviet flanker...n its less equipped than the other...
> Su-35 is the best russia has to offer ...they will not let Chinese kill their sale....
> Su-35 is well suited for navy or paf requirements...
> And I gues we can afford 36 sukhois..
> Russians will say to india that such small amount of jets doesn't puts them in danger...
> -and these things only apply if this news is accurate..china times also reported it..



Russia’s contract for supplying China with Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E) is at an approval stage, the first deputy director general of Russia’s arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, said on Monday.

"We are holding talks with our Chinese partners on agreeing a draft contract for the supplies of fighter jets," Ivan Goncharenko told TASS ahead of the MAKS-2015 air show held near Moscow.

There is a growing interest for the Su-35 multirole fighters, including in Latin America and Southeast Asia, he said.

"Su-35, like the new MiG-29M/M2, allows Russia to hold leading positions steadily on the market of combat aircraft in the future," Goncharenko said.

Russia’s Rosoboronexport expects to sign the contact with China for the supplies of 24 Su-35 fighter jets by late 2015.

_First published by TASS._



alee92nawaz said:


> J-11D is a copy of Soviet flanker...n its less equipped than the other...
> Su-35 is the best russia has to offer ...they will not let Chinese kill their sale....
> Su-35 is well suited for navy or paf requirements...
> And I gues we can afford 36 sukhois..
> Russians will say to india that such small amount of jets doesn't puts them in danger...
> -and these things only apply if this news is accurate..china times also reported it..



Russia’s contract for supplying China with Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E) is at an approval stage, the first deputy director general of Russia’s arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, said on Monday.

"We are holding talks with our Chinese partners on agreeing a draft contract for the supplies of fighter jets," Ivan Goncharenko told TASS ahead of the MAKS-2015 air show held near Moscow.

There is a growing interest for the Su-35 multirole fighters, including in Latin America and Southeast Asia, he said.

"Su-35, like the new MiG-29M/M2, allows Russia to hold leading positions steadily on the market of combat aircraft in the future," Goncharenko said.

Russia’s Rosoboronexport expects to sign the contact with China for the supplies of 24 Su-35 fighter jets by late 2015.

_First published by TASS._


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## nadeemkhan110

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/subcategory/Military-Jets/11
fighter jets with price tag j-11 is costely then su-35


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## batmannow

nadeemkhan110 said:


> http://www.aircraftcompare.com/subcategory/Military-Jets/11
> fighter jets with price tag j-11 is costely then su-35


You can get SU-35 but you can get J-11s so price isn't any issue ?
& above all we are not getting a cow for our EID UL ADHA ?LOL


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## nadeemkhan110

latest article on Su 35 to Pakistan but its in Chinese language
Nga bán Su-35 cho Pakistan: Cơn thịnh nộ của "gã khổng lồ Nam Á" | Quân sự | soha.vn


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## batmannow

wiseone2 said:


> Russia can sell the Su-35 to Pakistan. I have no objection to the sale of 40 aircraft if the Russians do not finance the deal.
> The PAF will have the headaches of maintenance of another combat aircraft


No way PAF will have any headaches about mentinence of SU-35s cause our great great friend China has the FLANKERs a long time ago ?
They have what it takes & also they are getting the same fighter jets from Russia , so it will be more suitable & eassy to mentain it even more easy then our F-16s which we need to beg to USA ?


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## nadeemkhan110

batmannow said:


> You can get SU-35 but you can get J-11s so price isn't any issue ?
> & above all we are not getting a cow for our EID UL ADHA ?LOL


 on eid ul adha we will cut mother of HINDUz stanlolz


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## batmannow

nadeemkhan110 said:


> on eid ul adha we will cut mother of HINDUz stanlolz


No we are not that low , & we hounr everyone s religion & for me Hindus ,Christians ,Jews we all are humans ?
Its just a mind set , which is wrong ?


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## batmannow

nadeemkhan110 said:


> latest article on Su 35 to Pakistan but its in Chinese language
> Nga bán Su-35 cho Pakistan: Cơn thịnh nộ của "gã khổng lồ Nam Á" | Quân sự | soha.vn


Its a Vietnamese language !
Stupid article ,just a self advisory big note to IAF & funnly , ending up as setting F-35 from USA as its option ?
Its a stupid joke cause it can make Russia so angery that , it can stop the supplies of IAF ,IN which mainly consisted on RUSSIAN technology & its weapons ?

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## nadeemkhan110

batmannow said:


> No we are not that low , & we hounr everyone s religion & for me Hindus ,Christians ,Jews we all are humans ?
> Its just a mind set , which is wrong ?


 I was talking about cow kashmirs and Indians are not allowed to eat cow because cow is the mother of hindus


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## batmannow

nadeemkhan110 said:


> I was talking about cow kashmirs and Indians are not allowed to eat cow because cow is the mother of hindus


Friend , I'm more on the subject of SU-35 s whom are more important for my country ?
Then a cow to a kashmiri brother ?

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## nadeemkhan110

*su-35 is not stealth other wise su-35 is an almost Fifth Generation JET is It Correct?*


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## Knight Rider

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *su-35 is not stealth other wise su-35 is an almost Fifth Generation JET is It Correct?*


SU-35 will wipe out indian air force i.e (MIG-21,MIG-23,Jaguars,Mirage 2000,LCA Tejas,Harriers and MIG-29s).
SU-35s + Pakistani Pilots = Nightmare for India.
SU-35s is a serious FOE for India in an open war with Pakistan.

India dont have any 4.5 or 5th Generation Jets.


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## Tameem

*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 September 2015

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
(123 of 427 words)

@MastanKhan....your words on PAF??

@Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..


Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

Can someone post full Article.

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## Tameem

For the first time Pakistani Officials too confirming the news on SU35 from Russia
Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

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## Imran Khan

we can use SU-35 in PIA ?

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## PDF

Things were already hinting towards this. I think Pakistan will buy few jets 2 squadrons maybe. It will help us alot to counter indian threat. Hope to see the deal getting finalized soon.

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## Muhammad Omar

ab India ki jalne wali hai big time 



*pass the Burnol Please *

*Indian Reactions *

*

*

*

*

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## GURU DUTT

Muhammad Omar said:


> ab India ki jalne wali hai big time
> 
> 
> 
> *pass the Burnol Please *


nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk

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## nForce

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk


proof of pudding is in eating.. wah wah..kya baat hai. kya line maarte ho sirji

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Jalne ki badbo yahan tak arahi hai 10,000 miles away

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## Muhammad Omar

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk



Wait and Watch... 

And BTW first statement Came From Russian Foreign Minister not From Pakistani Source

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## Imran Khan

akher kaar paf ne mastan khan ki sun li

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## Fireurimagination

It feels like what Rafale is for IAF, Su35 is for PAF. So near yet so far


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

PAKISTAN MRRCA DEAL FOR *120 Sukhoi-35* In making, pakka heart attack ho jaiga

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## tahir195

Yes a true air superiority Fighter coming to PAF

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## nadeemkhan110

Tameem said:


> For the first time Pakistani Officials too confirming the news on SU35 from Russia
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.


 its a very good news so it means that PAF is showing interest in SU-35.


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## hussain0216

Fireurimagination said:


> It feels like what Rafale is for IAF, Su35 is for PAF. So near yet so far



Except we haven't had over a decade of mind numbing negotiations and blowing our trumpet

Lets just wait and see and not be all indian over a deal that may or may not materialise and may take alot if time and negotiations 

The reason is tge deal may not happen for a very good reason but you will just hive the indians a reason to masterbate

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## Burhan Wani

Imran Khan said:


> akher kaar paf ne mastan khan ki sun li


Baray hi beghairat nikle russians,
Itni jaldi afghanistan mein haar ka ghum bhula diya.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Not unlike that Obam-pus. Never visited Pakistan that good for nothing hippie

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## Hurter

*Meanwhile in India

*

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## Knight Rider

Imran Khan said:


> we can use SU-35 in PIA ?



Just imagine


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## alee92nawaz

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Can someone post full Article.


Where are our indian brothers who were saying russia won't even consider it

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## Imran Khan

engineer saad said:


> Baray hi beghairat nikle russians,
> Itni jaldi afghanistan mein haar ka ghum bhula diya.


yaar sari dunya jang hari german- japan - italy - pakistan - egypt - israel-india - kon nhi hara ye to chalta hai

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## Kakaspai

indians be like but it wasnt suppose to happen.russian embessy said this and that 
hahaha burnol burnol @gurudutt

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## Blue Marlin

sorry to be the party pooper here but Pakistan will not be procuring the su-35 anytime soon. you just don't need it.


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## LonE_WolF

well i was waiting for the official confirmation 
we won't be going for more than 2 squadrons. (if the deal goes through)


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## alee92nawaz

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Can someone post full Article.


36 rafales to india and 36 sukhoiz to Pakistan make sense

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## Godman

I really doubt this will go ahead

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## Burhan Wani

Imran Khan said:


> yaar sari dunya jang hari german- japan - italy - pakistan - egypt - israel-india - kon nhi hara ye to chalta hai


It can be a honey trap,
Kuch roshni daalein.


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## Mutakalim

Tameem said:


> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..


Well i can wave my hands but they will shoot me


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## nadeemkhan110

Its very GOOD NEWS SO WE ARE NEAR TO PURCHASE SU-35


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## VelocuR

Let's sign deals with SU-35S !!!!


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## Mutakalim

alee92nawaz said:


> Where are our indian brothers who were saying russia won't even consider it


Just take few breaths they are coming. And again they will negate it by saying how they will pay, pakistan is bankrupt, failed state blah blah blah

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Prez Obam-pus






Crying indian


This one going for Oscars





A typical Indian man , crying below






Bap re Bap ye kiya hogawa ? SUKHOI phiter jet wo bhi , thaTY PHIVE
Main ne siruf chai pi thi , putin ko bora to nahi lag giya ?

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## Ind4Ever

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Def ence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Can someone post full Article.



Tricky and interesting one if true. BUT I DONT SEE many celebrating it as a victory even before war concludes . So hold with your crackers. There are two probabilities. 

1) During discussion Pakistan might had shown willingness to buy su35 . So formal request bren made and pure chinese game play here . As this article just said Both "DISCUSSED" about it . So we can conform request formally made . But it doesn't mean russians agreed to supply Su35 . I guess they might had gave some blind hope to let the process take its own course . As recently Russians denied any such intent with stronger the iron and deeper than ocean sentiment towards India . 

2) Now this is every important view . Russians probably using Pakistan as their bait for Modi's Moscow visit. As of now India has huge upper hand in Indo russia dialogue . At the time when US opening up to India in a very high quality weapon system levels and as of now russian economy is doomed not to forget India already decided to make In India not just buying and aims to be self reliance in defence . I think screws are been tightened for huge defence deals from india . Most probably Off the shelf Pakfa like we did to the French . If we can throw away our Make in India for france why we would not do the same with our official Ally that too when they need money like in trucks load 


So dont get carried away . Old article with one more source from pakistan just conformed it but why we are forgetting russian reply which the utterly denied it with strong words . Naming Pakistan as their enemy no 1 of the ally India ?

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## Tameem

While in India at the moment there is 1.2 Billion huge crowd gathering around infront of Russian Embassy and asking about Russian Deputy PM address

"You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... *If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face,*" Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan.
Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
Bust that was in 2012....



Ind4Ever said:


> Tricky and interesting one if true. BUT I DONT SEE many celebrating it as a victory even before war concludes . So hold with your crackers. There are two probabilities.
> 
> 1) During discussion Pakistan might had shown willingness to buy su35 . So formal request bren made and pure chinese game play here . As this article just said Both "DISCUSSED" about it . So we can conform request formally made . But it doesn't mean russians agreed to supply Su35 . I guess they might had gave some blind hope to let the process take its own course . As recently Russians denied any such intent with stronger the iron and deeper than ocean sentiment towards India .
> 
> 2) Now this is every important view . Russians probably using Pakistan as their bait for Modi's Moscow visit. As of now India has huge upper hand in Indo russia dialogue . At the time when US opening up to India in a very high quality weapon system levels and as of now russian economy is doomed not to forget India already decided to make In India not just buying and aims to be self reliance in defence . I think screws are been tightened for huge defence deals from india . Most probably Off the shelf Pakfa like we did to the French . If we can throw away our Make in India for france why we would not do the same with our official Ally that too when they need money like in trucks load
> 
> 
> So dont get carried away . Old article with one more source from pakistan just conformed it but why we are forgetting russian reply which the utterly denied it with strong words . Naming Pakistan as their enemy no 1 of the ally India ?



Indians, this is a new world. Accept the reality and moves on,don't make it a cluster fvck like RD93 fiasco...

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## Goenitz

spec please...does su35 discharge smoke? plus its maintenance time ? does it have onboard diagnostic (like cars and jf 17) which with just computer can tell the perfromance of sensors, gadgets etc ?


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## Echo_419

Muhammad Omar said:


> ab India ki jalne wali hai big time
> 
> 
> 
> *pass the Burnol Please *
> 
> *Indian Reactions *
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> *



Jab khareed loge tab bolna

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## Imran Khan

engineer saad said:


> It can be a honey trap,
> Kuch roshni daalein.


i think its not after india go to C-130J -C-17 - ATGM - APACHI - deals russia is not in the mode of joking now

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## Burhan Wani

Imran Khan said:


> i think its not after india go to C-130J -C-17 - ATGM - APACHI - deals russia is not in the mode of joking now


Aur ager Rafale se pehle su 35 aa gayi to aap ke aizaz mein Eishaiya diya jae ga.

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## Imran Khan

engineer saad said:


> Aur ager Rafale se pehle su 35 aa gayi to aap ke aizaz mein Eishaiya diya jae ga.


i don't think so janab per after refale to ayee hi ayee


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## Tameem

Imran Khan said:


> i think its not after india go to C-130J -C-17 - ATGM - APACHI - deals russia is not in the mode of joking now



Imran Bhai, Just Imagine how it feel making real _*French toast*_ out of _*Rafael*_....through this monster......hmmm...crispy

@Taygibay.....

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## 21 Dec 2012

What happens to India's $5 billion investment in PAK-FA then, knowing that someday Russia may very well sell it to Pakistan lol

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pak-fa , nam main pehle hai PAK laga gai , irony

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## Imran Khan

Tameem said:


> Imran Bhai, Just Imagine how it feel making real _*French toast*_ out of _*Rafael*_....through this monster......hmmm...crispy
> 
> @Taygibay.....


i think janab e aali su-35 will never give us edge over them but we have something to counter them . in other hands i am not hay their budget is big and we should solve the issues we can not go all along with ind-china


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## Burhan Wani

Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so janab per after refale to ayee hi ayee


Is waqt Amercians ki sahi hawa nikli ho gai.
Gahak jo hath se nikal giya.

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## war&peace

I think it is great opportunity for Pakistani pharmaceutical businessmen for exporting Burnols to our eastern enemy where local industry is not able to meet the demand

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## Imran Khan

engineer saad said:


> Is waqt Amercians ki sahi hawa nikli ho gai.
> Gahak jo hath se nikal giya.


defense trade is part of many trades no worry . we PDF guys see world only throw defence deals


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## hussain0216

Echo_419 said:


> Jab khareed loge tab bolna



I wish you indians had listened to your own advice we wouldn't had to sit through 1001 Rafale posts over the last 10 years

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## SipahSalar

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk


Russians themselves confirmed it first through their RTV. That's what started the rumors.

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## Knight Rider

Doothi's on Fire.

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## Ind4Ever

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Def ence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Can someone post full Article.



Tricky and interesting one if true. BUT I DONT SEE many celebrating it as a victory even before war concludes . So hold with your crackers. There are two probabilities. 

1) During discussion Pakistan might had shown willingness to buy su35 . So formal request bren made and pure chinese game play here . As this article just said Both "DISCUSSED" about it . So we can conform request formally made . But it doesn't mean russians agreed to supply Su35 . I guess they might had gave some blind hope to let the process take its own course . As recently Russians denied any such intent with stronger the iron and deeper than ocean sentiment towards India .

2) Now this is every important view . Russians probably using Pakistan as their bait for Modi's Moscow visit. As of now India has huge upper hand in Indo russia dialogue . At the time when US opening up to India in a very high quality weapon system levels and as of now russian economy is doomed not to forget India already decided to make In India not just buying and aims to be self reliance in defence . I think screws are been tightened for huge defence deals from india . Most probably Off the shelf Pakfa like we did to the French . If we can throw away our Make in India for france why we would not do the same with our official Ally that too when they need money like in trucks load 


So dont get carried away . Old article with one more source from pakistan just conformed it but why we are forgetting russian reply which the utterly denied it with strong words . Naming Pakistan as their enemy no 1 of the ally India


Tameem said:


> While in India at the moment there is 1.2 Billion huge crowd gathering around infront of Russian Embassy and asking about Russian Deputy PM address
> 
> "You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... *If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face,*" Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan.
> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> Bust that was in 2012....
> 
> 
> 
> Indians, this is a new world. Accept the reality and moves on,don't make it a cluster fvck like RD93 fiasco...




Ok why do you think Russia wil piss India ? Its a new world but not just born and gonna live for one day. I read an article on PDF only . In which Russians clearly refused any intent of such which will undermine India's security. Not the exact words but thats what he pointed out . 

Think of a situation . India formally asked US to sell their SSGN . And indian officials and us conformed that this discussion took place . But will it take place ? 

And US answer could had been very diplomatic like "Ok we will work it out in further discussion"


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## Muhammad Omar

peacekeepermark1 said:


> even if russia agrees to sell SU 35, whos going to pay for this?
> pakistan already relying on IMF aid/soft loans, american assistant will never agree to fund this sale.
> chinese will rather sell more jf 17 on soft loans than fund some russian purchase.
> 
> a su 35 roughly costs around 100 million $ going by recent Indian purchase of Su 30 MKI which now costing Indians 100 million.
> 'Russian will never sell anything on soft loans as they need hard cash in these times. so pakistani's stop dreaming and accept the reality.



Demag na kha It's Pakistan that's going to Pay... Pakistan is paying 5 Billion for 8 subs 1 billion to US for 15 AH-1Z +1000 hellfire missile + Paying for Global cutters patrol boats + Paying for oil Tanker for Navy... payment is none of your concerns

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## Muhammad Omar

peacekeepermark1 said:


> mungeri laal k haseen sapne. pakistan can purchase subs from china on soft loans and get some military aid from usa with clauses but when u deal with russians they want hard $ which pakistan has none for a purchase like su 35 which a couple of squadrons will cost pakistan whole of its military budget for couple of years. so dream on buddy.



LOL whole military Budget... please go somewhere else keyboard warrior i can feel your pain right now... 5 billion soft loan or whatever will still gonna pay it...

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## shah1398

blue marlin said:


> sorry to be the party pooper here but Pakistan will not be procuring the su-35 anytime soon. you just don't need it.



We do need it as like one squadron to east and one in south.A long range, long endurance biggie was need of hour as our Navy esp needs more of air support in deep seas.


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## Black Richi Rich

how many will we get a squadron? and IAF is getting PAK-FA? seems like a waste of money


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## shah1398

Goenitz said:


> spec please...does su35 discharge smoke? plus its maintenance time ? does it have onboard diagnostic (like cars and jf 17) which with just computer can tell the perfromance of sensors, gadgets etc ?



When it comes to FBW and DEEC systems, every diagostic is done via diagnostic softwares aided lapis and codes. SU-35 is no exception.

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## vine

All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends. 

All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.

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## Secret Service

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> PAKISTAN MRRCA DEAL FOR *120 Sukhoi-35* In making, pakka heart attack ho jaiga


its a beast.. but still i am processing this news..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

PAK-FA = Pakistan Fighteing Armata, pehle se hi fighter jet ke naam main Pakistan hai sooch lo


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## Secret Service

vine said:


> All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.
> 
> All these years..for ma **** friends*.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16.* Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.


show me the place where it is written...

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## vine

secretservice said:


> show me the place where it is written...


Bro common... I have read plenty of threads in this forum..especially the vs threads where u guys totally bashed s-30mkl being so big and having huge rcs and stuff...but now its not a problem now i guess .anyway if u guys are geting it ..good luck.we wld like have some competiton from your side also.else theres no fun right.


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## shah1398

2 Sqns of Rafale going to our East, 2 Sqns of SU-35 coming to their west. Fair enough.

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## Dr Gupta

!eon said:


> Russia won't arm India's enemies. What is China then ?
> Pakistan already getting engines for JF-17 from Russia, which is going to be back bone PAF.



Read my posts as I stated Russia at the moment will sell to *anyone *who stumps up the cash. My point is to take everything with a pinch of salt.



aliyusuf said:


> @Dr Gupta
> Your reference link : Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes is 3 years old. Situation has changed since then. Especially in the last year and a half.
> 
> It is a major break through that Russia and Pakistan even had a talk on the Su-35, the premiere Russian fighter at the moment. It is too premature, I agree, to even speculate whether this is going to progress further or a deal will actually materialize. But the talks itself is a huge step forward and probably is an indicator of the way things are headed in the future.



Brother I said it 10 x that Russia will sell to anyone who has the cash but still people are not understanding my point. There is a PR campaign going on due to the slump of the Russian economy and they need hard cash now but the Russians are not stupid enough to agonise ties with India especially in this moment of time.

Right now Russian oil firm is investing in the 2nd biggest oil refinery in India (which is one of the worlds biggest)

Essar Oil to sell 49 per cent stake to Russia's Rosneft for $3.2 billion - timesofindia-economictimes

Russians wants $$ but they can't win defence/energy deals with India if they start selling advanced weapons such as SU-35 and S-300 etc as this is a security concern but let's see what happens in the next 6-8 months.


----------



## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> PAKISTAN MRRCA DEAL FOR *120 Sukhoi-35* In making, pakka heart attack ho jaiga


i will never worship them until i have seen them in PAF colors. i have seen refale - tigers-mi-35-and mush more in last 10 years in pics and internet only but not come true

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## Secret Service

vine said:


> Bro common... I have read plenty of threads in this forum..especially the vs threads where u guys totally bashed s-30mkl being so big and having huge rcs and stuff...but now its not a problem now i guess .anyway if u guys are geting it ..good luck.we wld like have some competiton from your side also.else theres no fun right.


okay. ...


----------



## nadeemkhan110

peacekeepermark1 said:


> seems like you have little knowledge on economic front buddy, do you know IMF provides loans to pakistan for giving the interest of existing loans to IMF .
> pakistan can get soft loans from other big players but getting from russians in current scenario is impossible.
> 
> Su 35 or anyother russian plane is out of question. pakistan should rather gets its hand on J-10s or latest stealth planes from chinese on soft loans


WE WILL DECIDE WHAT WE NEED FOR OUR ENEMY


vine said:


> All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.
> 
> All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.


SU-35 IS A GOOD ONE specially for naval MUCH BETTER THEN 30mki ,BUT F16 is F16.


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## Secret Service

lets them come, then i will celebrate. I know by that time i will surely have few kids..


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## vine

secretservice said:


> show me the place where it is written...


Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

Check out this thread yourself.. self explanatory ..

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## Trisonics

The only troubling question still remains. Why will Russia stop earning big money from India for a couple of squadrons from Pakistan. Every Pakistani has the right to celebrate and even poke some fun at us if you wish but I think its highly premature since Pak really does not have much to give back to Russia and I don't think Russians are as dumb as Pakistanis are making them to be and lose bigger deals from India. Just doesn't make any sense. 

Interesting times but I still think Pakistanis are celebrating pre-maturely.

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## Windjammer

Trisonics said:


> The only troubling question still remains. Why will Russia stop earning big money from India for a couple of squadrons from Pakistan. Every Pakistani has the right to celebrate and even poke some fun at us if you wish but I think its highly premature since Pak really does not have much to give back to Russia and I don't think Russians are as dumb as Pakistanis are making them to be and lose bigger deals from India. Just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Interesting times but I still think Pakistanis are celebrating pre-maturely.



On the contrary, can India afford to put all it's eggs in the American basket....keeping the MMRCA fiasco in mind.

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## Quwa

@batmannow looks like I've been owned

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## mzeeshanfahd

batmannow said:


> That's a positive post !
> Agreed on it !
> But the thread should be stop cause its existence is just a speculation from no where ?
> 
> 
> Toddler , I'm a proud Pakistani enjoyed the sniping eye balls of your soilders in kargill ?lolzzz
> Yes that's about , the money & state relationship & China Pakistan & Russia are on their level best in the history ?lolzz
> Su-35 is comming to Pakistan .
> 
> 
> Remember one thing if there was nothing & just talks were initiated then Russian FM never had talked about it ?
> So its more a desperate media denial ,which India is in it & its wants to push into your mind?
> I have posted pics here* ,PAF pilots are in training on Chinese SU-30s why ?*


*

*
can you please share those again or atleast name the thread where you shared them


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## Goenitz

spec please...does su35 discharge smoke? plus its maintenance time ? does it have onboard diagnostic (like cars and jf 17) which with just computer can tell the perfromance of sensors, gadgets etc ?


shah1398 said:


> When it comes to FBW and DEEC systems, every diagostic is done via diagnostic softwares aided lapis and codes. SU-35 is no exception.


but too much is said about maintaince time of sukhois... i wonder if, not check manually, whta take that maintaince that much time (part replaacing only can take that much time 1 hour flight after 2-3 hours of maintenance)...


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## Trisonics

Windjammer said:


> On the contrary, can India afford to put all it's eggs in the American basket....keeping the MMRCA fiasco in mind.



India has not bought any fighter aircraft or subs from the U.S. Highly strategic assets and procurement requiring high level of trust is still with the Russians. Sure MMRCA was an experiment to get ToT much more than the aircraft itself. India wants to get into the big league with fighter aircraft but it put all its efforts through ToT and MMRCA. Hence, as far as the aircraft themselves go, MMRCA is important but not vital to our strong airforce. 5th Generation aircraft is super vital for Russia and it cannot afford to mess relations with India since India may end buying a large quantity.

I think you and some other Pakistani's don't understand Russia-India relationship very well. For that reason alone, I said celebrations were pre-mature. Russia will and has every right to engage any country it wishes but as I said it will mean little to India unless they started selling state of the art machinery to India's adversaries. That being said, I still don't get why Russia will spoil good relations and future sales for a smaller dollars from Pakistan.

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## Super Falcon

Bhai koi mujhe credit dega i was the one who break the news of SU 35 in PAF srategic use

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## Secret Service

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai koi mujhe credit dega i was the one who break the news of SU 35 in PAF srategic use


bhai aapko tu Samaa tv ma hona chaiye...

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## Donatello

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Can someone post full Article.



Well, it is not confirmed yet.......I need to see Su-35s in PAF colors.

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## Bossman

When Indians start posting long posts, it is a sure shot sign that' they are upset.


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## Last Samuri

When you show the Russians the colour of over $2.5 billion IN PAKISTANI HANDS

the Russians WILL HAND OVER 40 SU35B for sure.

BUT PAKISTAN WILL NEVERR HAVE $2.5 BILLION TO HAND TO RUSSIA.

For most AIR FORCES its no biggy $2.5 billion BUT for Pakistan its like $25 billion.

financially impossible. for your AIR FORCE AND GOVT.

" most senior Pakistanis in here know that's true"

ITS WAY WAY BEYOND YOUR COUNTRY


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## Jaam92

thats what everyone rejecting 
thats what pakistan need for long time
Pakistan should also customized their F-16 Fleet like Aesa Radar etc


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## aliyusuf

Dr Gupta said:


> Brother I said it 10 x that Russia will sell to anyone who has the cash but still people are not understanding my point. There is a PR campaign going on due to the slump of the Russian economy and they need hard cash now but the Russians are not stupid enough to agonise ties with India especially in this moment of time.



The reality of the matter is that there is a clear and present alliance between Russia and China vis-à-vis the aggressive posturing and policies of the west. If left unchecked, the way the US and Europe are moving forward, Russia and China will be marginalized to an extent (in a not to distant a future) that is not going to be acceptable to either Russia or China (Russia even more so). The whole Ukraine fiasco is a very good example of all this. The west is not content in letting things be the way they are and let them flow in their natural progression. They want everything exactly where they want them to be, the way they want them to be. Hence they are being very aggressive.

China has proven difficult to contain. And frankly now China is countering in cohorts with Russia (which needs help).

China is buying Russian gas worth USD 400 billion and oil worth USD 270 billion. Russia is now China's single largest supplier of oil, surpassing Saudi Arabia. China is investing huge amount of money in Russia. A paradigm shift is coming in Russia is as well.

Don't think of all this in just the India - Russia or India - Pakistan or Russia - Pakistan context. Think of it in a China - Russia context. Where their global counter strategies to the west are being devised and being set in motion. In this region, China wants to safeguard the source and supply of 50% of its fossil fuel from the ME. The route from the gulf to the South China Seas is long and costly. In the changing global situation it sees possible threats arising to its energy needs in the Indian Ocean from the growth of US presence and growing Indian naval power. Also it requires a foothold near by to safeguard its interests and in the future if need be project its power with Russia as an ally.

Enter CPEC and the Gwadar deep water port. The supply of Chinese energy needs and other trade goods to and from this region will be done via Gwadar and the inland route thru Pakistan. This will cut costs of supply and reduce the risks of a blockade to Chinese growing energy needs. It also provides the naval foothold in the region that China wants. Russia too sees the opportunities and benefits of this arrangement.

Pakistan is the provider of inland route and a strategically located deep water port. Plus it is to provide cover to Chinese and in future possibly Russian maritime interests. For that purpose China is already giving Pakistan 6 Subs and 6 surface vessels worth USD 5 billion. The PAF doesn't have any asset that can provide air cover to the extent that is required. Something is going to come Pakistan's way. Be it the Su-35 or the J-11D that is not the issue here. The big picture is that even if the current Su-35 hoopla doesn't end with an actual deal ... there are enough forces at work here which ensure that something or the other is coming ... be very sure of that and yes Russia is on board in all this.

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## Kurlang

I doubt this news. Its a bait to lure India in. Russian are not dumb. Since they are cash strapped hence they want to play both sides and this is what is going to happen
The Russians are going to start negotiations, some MoUs would also be signed, then will come the modalities and as usual the devil lies in the details, their will be good negotiations but suddenly, the Russians will find excuses to delay this deal.

My reason for presenting this analysis is based on the Russian treatment of the Iranian S-300 deal.

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## Bossman

peacekeepermark1 said:


> even if russia agrees to sell SU 35, whos going to pay for this?
> pakistan already relying on IMF aid/soft loans, american assistant will never agree to fund this sale.
> chinese will rather sell more jf 17 on soft loans than fund some russian purchase.
> 
> a su 35 roughly costs around 100 million $ going by recent Indian purchase of Su 30 MKI which now costing Indians 100 million.
> 'Russian will never sell anything on soft loans as they need hard cash in these times. so pakistani's stop dreaming and accept the reality.



and the $5billion dollar blk 52 or the 2 billion Erieye deal etc etc paid for by Martians as they become threatened by the Indian space ship. Get your head out of your a$$ and smell the roses for a change. Indian inherent bias and delusions will be Pakistan's best asset in the future. No major weapons deals is doen on lump sum cash, they are all financed. There is more to this deal which catches the eye and looking at it from a narrow banyia perspective is wrong. Go look for one of my posts on this topic few days ago and you will see the larger strategic implications involving China as well as Russia and Pakistan.

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## Secret Service

Kurlang said:


> I doubt this news. Its a bait to lure India in. Russian are not dumb. Since they are cash strapped hence they want to play both sides and this is what is going to happen
> The Russians are going to start negotiations, some MoUs would also be signed, then will come the modalities and as usual the devil lies in the details, their will be good negotiations but suddenly, the Russians will find excuses to delay this deal.
> 
> My reason for presenting this analysis is based on the Russian treatment of the Iranian S-300 deal.


exactly... we never deal in arms with Russians. just by looking at recent deals with indains and iranian i dont think such a hi tech and costly equipment will comes to pakistan in short span of time. it may take years or cancelled.

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## PakCan

Why not go for J-16 from China? Are they not similar to su-35? Even with 80% similar capabilities, they would make more sense then buying from Russians.


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## Super Falcon

secretservice said:


> bhai aapko tu Samaa tv ma hona chaiye...


Bhai i always used sense no sama tv bhai only want my country gain something from me im a common useless person with good mind want to do something for country starting with sensible induction for country security

SU 35 is made to kill and fighter jet any day any time 

Only F 22 is best than SU 35 but SU 35 has small chance to destroy ace F22 where others dont stand any chance

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## N/A

I will fly this jet...I guarantee you that

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## nadeemkhan110

PakCan said:


> Why not go for J-16 from China? Are they not similar to su-35? Even with 80% similar capabilities, they would make more sense then buying from Russians.


 WE Are ALREADY USING PAK CHINIESE JF-17 Now We need Russian JET
USA F16, PAK CHINA (JF-17) and Now Russian (Su-35) as per Spec I believe Su-35 will be the best One

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## Super Falcon

PakCan said:


> Why not go for J-16 from China? Are they not similar to su-35? Even with 80% similar capabilities, they would make more sense then buying from Russians.


Bhai SU 35 china also ordered why they had SU 30 J 11 because SU 35 engine is rare and its radar and avionics are best ever flankers had


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## Johny D

If Russia decides and Pakistan affords, it will be a big blow in our relationship with Russia....

As per my understanding, Russia will never do this misadventure just for a one time small benefit.....It will be too much at stack for them!

Secondly, China will never allow too much of Russian arms deal with Pakistan as their ultimate goal is to replace Russia as Key Arm Supplier to non-US-Nato aligned countries...

For India, we are on our way to achieve self reliance, we are worlds fastest growing economy, no-sanctions, US-UK-FRance-Germany-Japan-South Korea-Israel ...name a country in top-tier and they are with India if we want anything from them when it comes to defense! I don't think Pakistan at the Cost of India would be a choice for any damn country in this world!


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## Dr Gupta

aliyusuf said:


> The reality of the matter is that there is a clear and present alliance between Russia and China vis-à-vis the aggressive posturing and policies of the west. If left unchecked, the way the US and Europe are moving forward, Russia and China will be marginalized to an extent (in a not to distant a future) that is not going to be acceptable to either Russia or China (Russia even more so). The whole Ukraine fiasco is a very good example of all this. The west is not content in letting things be the way they are and let them flow in their natural progression. They want everything exactly where they want them to be, the way they want them to be. Hence they are being very aggressive.
> 
> China has proven difficult to contain. And frankly now China is countering in cohorts with Russia (which needs help).
> 
> *China is buying Russian gas worth USD 400 billion and oil worth USD 270 billion.* Russia is now China's single largest supplier of oil, surpassing Saudi Arabia. China is investing huge amount of money in Russia. A paradigm shift is coming in Russia is as well.
> 
> Don't think of all this in just the India - Russia or India - Pakistan or Russia - Pakistan context. Think of it in a China - Russia context. Where their global counter strategies to the west are being devised and being set in motion. In this region, China wants to safeguard the source and supply of 50% of its fossil fuel from the ME. The route from the gulf to the South China Seas is long and costly. In the changing global situation it sees possible threats arising to its energy needs in the Indian Ocean from the growth of US presence and growing Indian naval power. Also it requires a foothold near by to safeguard its interests and in the future if need be project its power with Russia as an ally.
> 
> Enter CPEC and the Gwadar deep water port. The supply of Chinese energy needs and other trade goods to and from this region will be done via Gwadar and the inland route thru Pakistan. This will cut costs of supply and reduce the risks of a blockade to Chinese growing energy needs. It also provides the naval foothold in the region that China wants. Russia too sees the opportunities and benefits of this arrangement.
> 
> Pakistan is the provider of inland route and a strategically located deep water port. Plus it is to provide cover to Chinese and in *future possibly Russian maritime interests.* For that purpose China is already giving Pakistan 6 Subs and 6 surface vessels worth USD 5 billion. The PAF doesn't have any asset that can provide air cover to the extent that is required. Something is going to come Pakistan's way. Be it the Su-35 or the J-11D that is not the issue here. The big picture is that even if the current Su-35 hoopla doesn't end with an actual deal ... there are enough forces at work which here which ensure that something or the other is coming ... be very sure of that and yes Russia is very much on board in all this.




Yes they are but that deal is a long term agreement and was signed when sanction's hit the Russian economy along with the slump in the global oil price. The Russians can't solely rely on the Chinese coming to save them and they like any country must diversify and expand in new markets. Before the (Ukraine war) the oil intended for the west is now going to by the looks of it be coming to the markets in Asia mainly (China and India) as they will consume the most in the next 10-15 years.

Next point regarding CPEC and 'Russia' in particular is interesting but we will not know what will transpire only time can tell.

Iran, India and Russia met in New Delhi and approved the draft transit and customs agreements for the International North South Transport Corridor.


According to Gadkari, “*It is expected that cargo by this route (INSTC) would reach Russia in about 25-30 days as against the present route through Suez which takes about *45-60 days


Chabahar: The ‘missing’ link to Eurasia | Russia & India Report


With China Slowdown, Russia Looks To India | OilPrice.com

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## Paksanity

Too early to celebrate. These are just discussions and can breakdown for number of reasons most likely being price, transfer of critical rechnology or weapons, diplomatic pressures and lingering suspicions among two nations. There is one reason to celebrate though. Pak-Russia relations have warmed enough to make such negotiations reality at first place.

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## Menace2Society

JD_In said:


> If Russia decides and Pakistan affords, it will be a big blow in our relationship with Russia....
> 
> As per my understanding, Russia will never do this misadventure just for a one time small benefit.....It will be too much at stack for them!



You think having special hotline with Uncle Sam where you are sharing all your intel on Russia and scheming against them is acceptable? Russians are not stupid.

Iran may be stupid by accepting India running to Israel but they need money after being under sanctions. The dynamics are totally stupid. Russians know the game very well and how to play it.

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## SirHatesALot

Highly doubt PAF will go for Russian jets.


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## nadeemkhan110

JD_In said:


> If Russia decides and Pakistan affords, it will be a big blow in our relationship with Russia....
> 
> As per my understanding, Russia will never do this misadventure just for a one time small benefit.....It will be too much at stack for them!
> 
> Secondly, China will never allow too much of Russian arms deal with Pakistan as their ultimate goal is to replace Russia as Key Arm Supplier to non-US-Nato aligned countries...
> 
> For India, we are on our way to achieve self reliance, we are worlds fastest growing economy, no-sanctions, US-UK-FRance-Germany-Japan-South Korea-Israel ...name a country in top-tier and they are with India if we want anything from them when it comes to defense! I don't think Pakistan at the Cost of India would be a choice for any damn country in this world!


*"YOU MUST READ THIS "ENEMY OF INDIA is an enemy of RUSSIA and Enemy of Russian is a Friend of INDIA"*
China, Russia And Pakistan: The World's New Superpower Axis

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## MAB

Once again my compatriots are celebrating too early. There is still no concrete evidence except for an "unnamed source". I still will say this is nothing but rumours. When an official actually comes out and says this on record I will believe it.


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## nadeemkhan110

J20 prototype 2016 rolled out.at Chengdu 
Making it the 7th prototype overall. Also noted is the new DSI-bump.
sources:
China Defense Blog: J20 prototype 2016 rolled out.at Chengdu


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## Muhammad Omar

Last Samuri said:


> When you show the Russians the colour of over $2.5 billion IN PAKISTANI HANDS
> 
> the Russians WILL HAND OVER 40 SU35B for sure.
> 
> BUT PAKISTAN WILL NEVERR HAVE $2.5 BILLION TO HAND TO RUSSIA.
> 
> For most AIR FORCES its no biggy $2.5 billion BUT for Pakistan its like $25 billion.
> 
> financially impossible. for your AIR FORCE AND GOVT.
> 
> " most senior Pakistanis in here know that's true"
> 
> ITS WAY WAY BEYOND YOUR COUNTRY



don't act like retard in every thread 

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360


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## alibaz

Discussion and Russian offer to sell doesn't mean we are buying it or they are selling it. It's still a long way to go before it comes in PAF colours. I consider it too early to celebrate or burn.

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## Quwa

Last Samuri said:


> When you show the Russians the colour of over $2.5 billion IN PAKISTANI HANDS
> 
> the Russians WILL HAND OVER 40 SU35B for sure.
> 
> BUT PAKISTAN WILL NEVERR HAVE $2.5 BILLION TO HAND TO RUSSIA.
> 
> For most AIR FORCES its no biggy $2.5 billion BUT for Pakistan its like $25 billion.
> 
> financially impossible. for your AIR FORCE AND GOVT.
> 
> " most senior Pakistanis in here know that's true"
> 
> ITS WAY WAY BEYOND YOUR COUNTRY


Why is this such a problem for you? The negotiations are real and it seems the PAF does see a feasible avenue in procuring these jets. Let's see how it all pans out.


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## Last Samuri

Mark.

Its no problem for me

IM just enjoying the found love of Flankers by PAKISTANIS


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## Tiger Genie

good idea. Pakistan can make China and Russia compete for their order


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## Muhammad Omar

peacekeepermark1 said:


> seems like you have little knowledge on economic front buddy, do you know IMF provides loans to pakistan for giving the interest of existing loans to IMF .
> pakistan can get soft loans from other big players but getting from russians in current scenario is impossible.
> 
> Su 35 or anyother russian plane is out of question. pakistan should rather gets its hand on J-10s or latest stealth planes from chinese on soft loans



The same lame thing were said When the news came out about Mi-35 Helicopters Russia wont five you anything Russia this Russia that Pakistan ordered 4 which can be increased to 12 

Russia also signed 2 Billion Dollars pipeline deal Russia won't sign a deal coming from Bhartis 

then Russian Foreign Minister broke the News about Su-35 and now even INS janes is reporting and PAF officials confirmed about the talks going on.... 

What IMF has to do with this? we are already buying Engines From Russians for JF-17 Mi-35 deal is on to... please use some Burnol now and go to sleep

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## Muhammad Omar

nadeemkhan110 said:


> J20 prototype 2016 rolled out.at Chengdu
> Making it the 7th prototype overall. Also noted is the new DSI-bump.
> sources:
> China Defense Blog: J20 prototype 2016 rolled out.at Chengdu



What this has to done with Su-35 thread?


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## nadeemkhan110

Muhammad Omar said:


> What this has to done with Su-35 thread?


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## janu.bravo

JD_In said:


> I don't think Pakistan at the Cost of India would be a choice for any damn country in this world!


that damn county is Russia!!! stop day dreaming i accept INDIA is world's fastest growing economy but it doesn't mean it's world's largest economy....China cannot sell their flankers to Pakistan because of Russia. If you are buying some planes from France and USA by ditching Russia thn you should be prepare for that response.


peacekeepermark1 said:


> seems like you have little knowledge on economic front buddy, do you know IMF provides loans to pakistan for giving the interest of existing loans to IMF .
> pakistan can get soft loans from other big players but getting from russians in current scenario is impossible.
> 
> Su 35 or anyother russian plane is out of question. pakistan should rather gets its hand on J-10s or latest stealth planes from chinese on soft loans


if you are really that much great in economics thn you should have known that after sanctions and with heavy debts of IMF we made nuclear bomb, we made agosta, we paid for JF-17, we took our missile prog to new level....and now a days we are not under any sanctions, we got loans but our economy is better thn 90's era we got CHINA's support plus many other allies with us.


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## AUSTERLITZ

I'll believe it when i see it.
Given that our last modified batch of 42 flankers cost us around 100 million each,and we already had infrstructure set up.For PAF to acquire even 2 squadrons of around 40 along with armament and setting up infrstructure(plus su-35 being more advanced than MKI) -at least 5 billion dollars.
And russia won't give any soft loans.So i can't see how PAF acquires this plane.

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## Bossman

Janu.Bravo,

India being the fastest growing country in the world is myth. Last year they changed their method for calculating GDP which added 2% to their growth rate. This change, among other things, included the value to defecation by their cows and goats in the calculation of their GDP and treating professions such as cobblers as skilled labor and adding higher value to their output. In reality last year their GDP growth rate was close to 5%, a little higher than Pakistan. This is year they might not be able to maintain that because Monsoons have failed in many states.

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## janu.bravo

Bossman said:


> Janu.Bravo,
> 
> India being the fastest growing country in the world is myth. Last year they changed their method for calculating GDP which added 2% to their growth rate. This change, among other things, included the value to defecation by their cows and goats in the calculation of their GDP and treating professions such as cobblers as skilled labor and adding higher value to their output. In reality last year their GDP growth rate was close to 5%, a little higher than Pakistan. This is year they might not be able to maintain that because Monsoons have failed in many states.


Bhai jaan in ko bhi tu thora khush hona dou.... 



AUSTERLITZ said:


> I'll believe it when i see it.
> Given that our last modified batch of 42 flankers cost us around 100 million each,and we already had infrstructure set up.For PAF to acquire even 2 squadrons of around 40 along with armament and setting up infrstructure(plus su-35 being more advanced than MKI) -at least 5 billion dollars.
> And russia won't give any soft loans.So i can't see how PAF acquires this plane.


Are you sure we are buying 2 squadrons?i don't think PAF will adapt any new platform just for 2 squadrons. but you can say 2 for PAF and 2 for Navy


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## Pk_Thunder

Imagine SU35 with PAF Pilots! Its going to be one hell of a combination...Sleepless nights on our eastern side

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## I M Sikander

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk


You dont worry about pakiatan and same for you, only talk when india sign a deal for rafale.

We are hearing the about lca inductions and mmrca since childhood.

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## I M Sikander

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I'll believe it when i see it.
> Given that our last modified batch of 42 flankers cost us around 100 million each,and we already had infrstructure set up.For PAF to acquire even 2 squadrons of around 40 along with armament and setting up infrstructure(plus su-35 being more advanced than MKI) -at least 5 billion dollars.
> And russia won't give any soft loans.So i can't see how PAF acquires this plane.


400 to 500 million dollar each year payment by pakistan, from contract signing till completion of aircraft delivery around 5 to 6 year will not be any problem for pakistan. 

In this way paf can easily manage 4 to 5 billion dollar for SU 35 in coming 5 to y yearsm

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## WaLeEdK2

It would be nice to get 2 or 3 squadrons of these beasts. PAF needs to be more proactive. These days we've been responding to India.


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## Bossman

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I'll believe it when i see it.
> Given that our last modified batch of 42 flankers cost us around 100 million each,and we already had infrstructure set up.For PAF to acquire even 2 squadrons of around 40 along with armament and setting up infrstructure(plus su-35 being more advanced than MKI) -at least 5 billion dollars.
> And russia won't give any soft loans.So i can't see how PAF acquires this plane.



$5B is the same as what PAF paid for 18 Blk 52s plus 40 MLUs plus AMRAMS other related stuff and it was not on soft terms or aid. I think PAF initial order will be smaller maybe around 1 squadron i.e 18/20 aircraft. New bases are being built in Turbat and Hyderabad Sind which can be customized for SU35 similar to Jacobabad being customized for Blk52. A small initial order is entirely feasible. This whole thing is tied to CEPC, China and even Russia's access to a warm water ports which can circumvent chokes point for the two countries. This is something which Russia has been dreaming of since the time of the Czars so don't right it off too quickly. Strategic interest might override financial priorities. China would like to protect it access to Arabian sea, but it cannot maintain an airbase in the area because it will make other Pakistan allies in region i.e. Arab countries very nervous. The second best thing is Pakistan enhances it presence in that area through a common platform and infrastructure which can be augmented by China in times of crisis. As I always say Indians need to take their heads out of their A$$s and look at a world which is changing fast. They should also stop thinking like bunyias. Not every thing in this world is about the numbers adding up.

Also the cost of HAL made SUs is much higher than if the planes were imported directly from Russia

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## jaydee

vine said:


> All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.
> 
> All these years..for ma **** friends.sukhois were stupid and nothing compared to f-16. Am all off a sudden when u guys r geting a sukhoi, it has become one off de best in the world.. bravo my friends.


Buddy Su 35 is far superior than Su 30.The comments were made for Su 30.



JD_In said:


> If Russia decides and Pakistan affords, it will be a big blow in our relationship with Russia....
> 
> As per my understanding, Russia will never do this misadventure just for a one time small benefit.....It will be too much at stack for them!
> 
> Secondly, China will never allow too much of Russian arms deal with Pakistan as their ultimate goal is to replace Russia as Key Arm Supplier to non-US-Nato aligned countries...
> 
> For India, we are on our way to achieve self reliance, we are worlds fastest growing economy, no-sanctions, US-UK-FRance-Germany-Japan-South Korea-Israel ...name a country in top-tier and they are with India if we want anything from them when it comes to defense! I don't think Pakistan at the Cost of India would be a choice for any damn country in this world!


Frnd it doesn't always have to be economics.The geo politics of this region will also force the regional countries to forge new alliances of convenience.There are already a paradigm shifts occuring in this region.Two blocks are getting created.The Western block supported by India,Israel,Australia,South Korea,Japan,Phillipines .Eastern block of china,Russia,Pakistan,CIS,Iran.So expect new military deals within these two blocks.

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## Muhammad Omar

For many Indian Friends here in this thread we know the deal is not finalized yet but the moment of joy is that it's is confirmed that they are talking about Su-35 

we know how deals can be end or can go long and long and long


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## Malik Alashter

But why Su-35 why not Su-27sm3 it is cheaper plus it has some of the Su-35 goodies plus Russians already have 60 of them and the intent they have for 75 more.

You need bigger bird and good that one is big and good plus cheap.

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## I M Sikander

Trisonics said:


> The only troubling question still remains. Why will Russia stop earning big money from India for a couple of squadrons from Pakistan. Every Pakistani has the right to celebrate and even poke some fun at us if you wish but I think its highly premature since Pak really does not have much to give back to Russia and I don't think Russians are as dumb as Pakistanis are making them to be and lose bigger deals from India. Just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Interesting times but I still think Pakistanis are celebrating pre-maturely.


We bought thunder engines, did india stoped buying weapons from russia afterwards? 
Ans. No.

We bought MI 35 , did india stopped buying Russian weapons after that? 
Ans . No

So what if we buy mig 35.
Russians know that iaf is nothing without Russian jets, mig 21, mig 29, mig 27, Su 30 mki. 

Iaf cant get rid of these Russian jets till 2040 specially SU30 MKI which is iaf front line jet in largest numbers.

India will 200% sign a deal to upgrade its Su30 MKI, whether pakistan buy su35 or not.

And russians knows that whether they sell their jets to paf or not, india is tightly bound to them for su30 MKI upgrade, PAKFA and other programs.

India will remain russias big weapon market, irrespective of pakistan weapon urchase from russia.

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## Muhammad Omar

Ranasikander said:


> We bought thunder engines, did india stoped buying weapons from russia afterwards?
> Ans. No.
> 
> We bought MI 35 , did india stopped buying Russian weapons after that?
> Ans . No
> 
> So what if we buy mig 35.
> Russians know that iaf is nothing without Russian jets, mig 21, mig 29, mig 27, Su 30 mki.
> 
> Iaf cant get rid of these Russian jets till 2040 specially SU30 MKI which is iaf front line jet in largest numbers.
> 
> India will 200% sign a deal to upgrade its Su30 MKI, whether pakistan buy su35 or not.
> 
> And russians knows that whether they sell their jets to paf or not, india is tightly bound to them for su30 MKI upgrade, PAKFA and other programs.
> 
> India will remain russias big weapon market, irrespective of pakistan weapon urchase from russia.



Plus who would supply spares for all these jets?

Russian jets, mig 21, mig 29, mig 27, Su 30 mki.

India can't pressure Russians

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## That Guy

It's not going to happen, if there are talks, then they're talking for talking's sake.


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## saadee

Chooroo dabba Kay chooroo. Oh bhai they are in talks. Iss ka matlun yeh nahi Kay hum su35 khareed rahay hain. Just wait and watch.


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## s.k

Trisonics said:


> The only troubling question still remains. Why will Russia stop earning big money from India for a couple of squadrons from Pakistan. Every Pakistani has the right to celebrate and even poke some fun at us if you wish but I think its highly premature since Pak really does not have much to give back to Russia and I don't think Russians are as dumb as Pakistanis are making them to be and lose bigger deals from India. Just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Interesting times but I still think Pakistanis are celebrating pre-maturely.


India is now watching eu and us so there will be no deal in future between india and russia except pak-fa, tho kuch na hone se kuch hona is better if yu are getting 5 rupee from india and and the earning is stoped now so they will go for 1 rupee, now yu got it ? School attend kartay tho aaj en bacho waley sawalo k jawab na dene partay mujhe.


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## Akasa

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai SU 35 china also ordered why they had SU 30 J 11 because SU 35 engine is rare and its radar and avionics are best ever flankers had



There is no credible evidence that China ever was interested in the Su-35. Their J-11D, J-15S, and J-16 fighters exhibit an airframe and electronics upgrade scheme that is very similar, in the technical nature, to that of the Su-35.

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## Black Richi Rich

I Dont see how buying this plane changes anything, i doubt we even get the plane, the russians may go as far as to help us with improving the JF-17 but i sicnerely doubt they'll sell the SU-35, the indians will be getting the PAK-FA which is a true 5th generation fighter, the SU-35 just seems like a pricey stop gap.


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## Basel

Pk_Thunder said:


> Imagine SU35 with PAF Pilots! Its going to be one hell of a combination...Sleepless nights on our eastern side



Imagine Su-35s sharing data with JF-17s to use their SD-10As.

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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> That's the point I am making, Russia will sell to *anyone *who has the $$ but they are not stupid either to sell SU-35 and expect India to carry on as business like usual.
> 
> The Russian economy is in a real pickle right now as the oil price is really low and sanctions have hurt so they need hard $$ right now.
> 
> Russia''s Economy Minister Says GDP Shrinking More Than Expected - NASDAQ.com


I think it is both ways, India needs spares Russia needs sales, you will have to buy big to stop Pakistan Russia deal and I do not mean spares or Aircraft Carries because that is India's need. If India can buy from USA and Russia, Russia can sell SU35 to China and Pakistan. Think about it after all if Russia does not sell China will.


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## New Resolve

TigerJay said:


> First of all, not easily. It involves Russia again. Secondly why to invest in J11Ds when you can get your hands on Su35s. J11s are not at all comparable with Su35s at all and which is why China is also interested in buying the same planes from Russia.



If China was interested in SU35's they would have bought them ages ago, they havent. J11D has an AESA radar among many Chinese upgrades so i would consider a few squadrons to protect our maritime frontiers if Su35 is not available. 
Either way im sure if Pakistan was interested they would evaluate both before making a decision.



batmannow said:


> Sir,
> That's real deal , & we are getting our target sights well done on indian navy ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Its been stated a million times J-11 s can't be sold another country , Russia don't allow that ?
> Get it & stop hitting the wall pls ?




What a childish argument. Who told you China built these under licence, they did not. The only thing stopping the chinese from selling these birds was the Aluyshin power plants. J11D uses Chinese WS10 power plants.


----------



## Basel

Windjammer said:


> Expected visit of CAS Sohail Aman to Russia next month..... PAF surely is planning some sort of deal with the Soviets.



It means that the pilot on twitter was right, I had posted screen print of it here and had asked you to verify it and confirm that ID belongs to real PAF pilot.


----------



## alee92nawaz

Trisonics said:


> The only troubling question still remains. Why will Russia stop earning big money from India for a couple of squadrons from Pakistan. Every Pakistani has the right to celebrate and even poke some fun at us if you wish but I think its highly premature since Pak really does not have much to give back to Russia and I don't think Russians are as dumb as Pakistanis are making them to be and lose bigger deals from India. Just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Interesting times but I still think Pakistanis are celebrating pre-maturely.


How can India stop Russians from earning big money from bharat mata ?
Indians need 
Engines
Radars
Etc spares from them for all of their planes for decades to come...India has no place to go for spares and has invested huge chunk of money on pak fa...
So Russians aint losing no thing...
And in decades things can change even indo-russ relations 



Basel said:


> Imagine Su-35s sharing data with JF-17s to use their SD-10As.


Whats the range of sd 10A ?

It full


Black Richi Rich said:


> I Dont see how buying this plane changes anything, i doubt we even get the plane, the russians may go as far as to help us with improving the JF-17 but i sicnerely doubt they'll sell the SU-35, the indians will be getting the PAK-FA which is a true 5th generation fighter, the SU-35 just seems like a pricey stop gap.


It fulfils our requirements big time....


----------



## somebozo



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## Dr Gupta

Humble Analyst said:


> I think it is both ways, India needs spares Russia needs sales, you will have to buy big to stop Pakistan Russia deal and I do not mean spares or Aircraft Carries because that is India's need. If India can buy from USA and Russia, Russia can sell SU35 to China and Pakistan. Think about it after all if Russia does not sell China will.



I have been hearing about the imminent 'SU-35' sale to China for the last 3 years now but there is no deal as of yet. Also a recent article has stated the Mig-35 is back on the agenda for India (according to a Russian article). The point is they need cash and are on a PR media overdrive trying to drum up business but only time has the answers as to what deals are actually signed and sealed.

Delhi’s interest in MiG-35 is growing | Russia & India Report

I take such articles with a pinch of salt as I understand the situation the Russians are facing at the moment.

If Russia sells such a advanced platform as the SU-35 to Pakistan, Russia will have thrown the rule book out the window and yes I myself as a Indian would be hurt by Russia's action as Putin himself said in India he will not sell advanced weapons to Pakistan.

Also if I see that chap who said spit in my face - well... I have a big green one coming right up Sir as you did ask for it


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## AtiF Malang

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk


Guru ji app ka kiya kehna hai 
Pehlae ap farma rahae tay kay helicopter aur jets main bohot farak hai aur russia Pakistan ki es silsilae main baat chet he nahi 
Abhi kuch aur 
Jab Su35 ajaen gae tab kahae ge we got PakFa
DIL BEHLANAE KO BOLAE GURU YEH KHWAB ACHA HAI

[QUOTE ="Junaid B, post: 7659478, member: 161037"]

*Meanwhile in India

*[/QUOTE]
Jalnae walo ka munh kala



alee92nawaz said:


> Where are our indian brothers who were saying russia won't even consider it



Woh abhi kuch firni werni ki baat kar rahae hai 
hahahahahaha
Becharae



Echo_419 said:


> Jab khareed loge tab bolna


Jaise Mi 35 khared lia yeh be khared lengae 
Tumhri dramabazi nahi karte 
Barae ayae tey M M R C A walaee
Buhahaha


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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> I have been hearing about the imminent 'SU-35' sale to China for the last 3 years now but there is no deal as of yet. Also a recent article has stated the Mig-35 is back on the agenda for India (according to a Russian article). The point is they need cash and are on a PR media overdrive trying to drum up business but only time has the answers as to what deals are actually signed and sealed.
> 
> Delhi’s interest in MiG-35 is growing | Russia & India Report
> 
> I take such articles with a pinch of salt as I understand the situation the Russians are facing at the moment.
> 
> If Russia sells such a advanced platform as the SU-35 to Pakistan, Russia will have thrown the rule book out the window and yes I myself as a Indian would be hurt by Russia's action as Putin himself said in India he will not sell advanced weapons to Pakistan.
> 
> Also if I see that chap who said spit in my face - well... I have a big green one coming right up Sir as you did ask for it


India bought Poseidon 8 from USA, Rafale from France, maybe you already spat on Russia and let them down who stood by India for 67 years. Try to see things from others point of view not always your side.


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## Quwa

That Guy said:


> It's not going to happen, if there are talks, then they're talking for talking's sake.


PAF doesn't talk for talking's sake. Yes, Pakistanis in general love doing that, but the Pakistani military doesn't, when it talks to vendors it is serious about a purchase (ask Saab about Erieye, Lockheed Martin about F-16, TKMS about U-214 before Zardari smothered it with a pillow and burned the corpse, Bell about AH-1Z, etc). If talks are real then there is some smoke behind this fire, but whether this actually comes to fruition remains to be seen, so let's wait, see, and speculate.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pic made me laugh..


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Not unlike that Obam-pus. Never visited Pakistan that good for nothing hippie





Junaid B said:


> *Meanwhile in India
> 
> *




Yaar ... Meanwhile in indian forums they are threatening Russia... Without thinking that's it's them who are dependant on russia not the otherwat around...


On topic .. Another great game has begun.....

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## Dr Gupta

Humble Analyst said:


> India bought Poseidon 8 from USA, Rafale from France, maybe you already spat on Russia and let them down who stood by India for 67 years. Try to see things from others point of view not always your side.



Russia have nothing like the P-8 to offer India (a deal which was signed prior to Putin's visit), the MRCA was a 'tender' and the Rafale won. India and Russia ties are moving from a buyer/seller relationship to a joint development one like the Brahmos project.

Russian leaders greet Modi on birthday | Russia & India Report

President Putin in his message appreciated the Indian PM’s efforts to *“strengthen the relations of special and privileged strategic partnership between our countries,* develop Russian-Indian interaction in solving topical issues of the regional and global agenda


Russia is still our number 1 strategic partner that will not change.


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## AtiF Malang

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pic made me laugh..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar ... Meanwhile in indian forums they are threatening Russia... Without thinking that's it's them who are dependant on russia not the otherwat around...
> 
> 
> On topic .. Another great game has begun.....



Bhai baharat tuk shop wali ki to ajj sahi dechkiya jaal re hogae

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## saadee

You guys are acting like they are parked in the backyard.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ind4Ever said:


> Tricky and interesting one if true. BUT I DONT SEE many celebrating it as a victory even before war concludes . So hold with your crackers. There are two probabilities.
> 
> 1) During discussion Pakistan might had shown willingness to buy su35 . So formal request bren made and pure chinese game play here . As this article just said Both "DISCUSSED" about it . So we can conform request formally made . But it doesn't mean russians agreed to supply Su35 . I guess they might had gave some blind hope to let the process take its own course . As recently Russians denied any such intent with stronger the iron and deeper than ocean sentiment towards India .
> 
> 2) Now this is every important view . Russians probably using Pakistan as their bait for Modi's Moscow visit. As of now India has huge upper hand in Indo russia dialogue . At the time when US opening up to India in a very high quality weapon system levels and as of now russian economy is doomed not to forget India already decided to make In India not just buying and aims to be self reliance in defence . I think screws are been tightened for huge defence deals from india . Most probably Off the shelf Pakfa like we did to the French . If we can throw away our Make in India for france why we would not do the same with our official Ally that too when they need money like in trucks load
> 
> 
> So dont get carried away . Old article with one more source from pakistan just conformed it but why we are forgetting russian reply which the utterly denied it with strong words . Naming Pakistan as their enemy no 1 of the ally India ?



Yaar I didn't read your entire post.. But u read your "russians agreed to supply" part..

I mean are you guys f... stupid ? This "confirmation" came weeks after the russian defence ministers statement about negotiations for SU-35 with Pak.... 


I mean bc I heard the same shitty logic when the rumours about Pak buying MI-35Es were heard .. 

Come on boy... There have been many high level visits.. Naval ex,port calls by PN .. Army chief n defence minister visits,.,, planned military exercises,russia helped us open an MI repair n overhaul factory,MI-35E deal,Russians marketing their equipment at IDEAS 2015,Demos to our COAS,support on SCO etc etc...

You guys are living in a bubble ... It's politics kiddo...

Deal with it.



saadee said:


> You guys are acting like they are parked in the backyard.



Yaar even if we don't buy it... Still it's a big deal russia offering its latest hardware to Pak... That hasn't happened since the 90s when russia offered us SU-27..

These guys were out mortal enemies and India's best buddies remember? 

It's a geopolitical shift.



SinoSoldier said:


> There is no credible evidence that China ever was interested in the Su-35. Their J-11D, J-15S, and J-16 fighters exhibit an airframe and electronics upgrade scheme that is very similar, in the technical nature, to that of the Su-35.




Yeah J series is essentially the same thing with a chinese flavour ..you chinese are real good brother ... 
I won't shy away from saying that China is a role model for Pak...

Specially our shitty leadership...

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## TigerJay

New Resolve said:


> If China was interested in SU35's they would have bought them ages ago, they havent. J11D has an AESA radar among many Chinese upgrades so i would consider a few squadrons to protect our maritime frontiers if Su35 is not available.
> Either way im sure if Pakistan was interested they would evaluate both before making a decision.



*Russia to Ink Deal to Supply China with 24 Su-35 Fighter Jets*
by BRENDAN MCGARRY on JUNE 19, 2015

PARIS — Russian aerospace giant United Aircraft Corp. plans to ink a deal this year to supply the Chinese military with two dozen Sukhoi Su-35 multi-role fighter jets, an official said.

When asked for the status of the talks between the two countries on the sale, Yuri Slyusar, the head of the Moscow-maker of civilian and military aircraft confirmed the pending agreement this week at the Paris Air Show, held outside the city at the historic Le Bourget airfield. Sukhoi is a subsidiary of United Aircraft.

“The question should go to the federal service on military cooperation, not us,” he said during a briefing with reporters. “Our position is that we still believe that we will sign the contract to sell 24 aircraft this year.”

China recently conducted the first test flight of the J-11D, an upgraded version of the J-11B that’s based on the Russian Sukhoi Su-27. But the People’s Liberation Army Air Force still wants the twin-engine Su-35, reportedly to go up against Japan’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and India’s Su-30MKO and T-50 aircraft.

In information distributed at the show, United Aircraft said the Su-35 “4++” generation fighter is one of the company’s “top priority programs.”

Recent flight and weapons testing showed the Su-35 not only meets specifications, but also performs better than other fourth-generation fighters, including the U.S.-made F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 aircraft — even the new F-35 fifth-generation stealth fighter, according to a fact-sheet. “Thus, it is a potent rival to the F-22A aircraft,” it states.

The Su-35 is being outfitted with new engines, avionics and other systems from Russia’s own fifth-generation fighter program, the T-50 PAK-FA.



New Resolve said:


> If China was interested in SU35's they would have bought them ages ago, they havent. J11D has an AESA radar among many Chinese upgrades so i would consider a few squadrons to protect our maritime frontiers if Su35 is not available.
> Either way im sure if Pakistan was interested they would evaluate both before making a decision.




*Russia’s deal with China on Su-35 fighter jets at approval stage*
24 August 2015 TASS

Russia’s contract for supplying China with Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E) is at an approval stage, the first deputy director general of Russia’s arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, said on Monday.

"We are holding talks with our Chinese partners on agreeing a draft contract for the supplies of fighter jets," Ivan Goncharenko told TASS ahead of the MAKS-2015 air show held near Moscow.

There is a growing interest for the Su-35 multirole fighters, including in Latin America and Southeast Asia, he said.

"Su-35, like the new MiG-29M/M2, allows Russia to hold leading positions steadily on the market of combat aircraft in the future," Goncharenko said.

Russia’s Rosoboronexport expects to sign the contact with China for the supplies of 24 Su-35 fighter jets by late 2015.

_First published by TASS._



New Resolve said:


> If China was interested in SU35's they would have bought them ages ago, they havent. J11D has an AESA radar among many Chinese upgrades so i would consider a few squadrons to protect our maritime frontiers if Su35 is not available.
> Either way im sure if Pakistan was interested they would evaluate both before making a decision.



*Russia's Sukhoi Su-35 super-maneuverable multirole fighters will most likely become China's trump card in its longstanding geopolitical game in the South China Sea, US journalist Zachary Keck noted.*

All You Need is Su-35: China Should Buy Russian Fighter Jets – Chinese Media
Moscow will most likely sell its advanced Su-35 fighter jets to China by the end of this year, US journalist Zachary Keck emphasizes, adding that the sophisticated multirole aircraft will allow China to project its power over the South China Sea more efficiently.


The Sukhoi Su-35 (Su-35BM), an advanced multirole air fighter dubbed Flanker-E by NATO, boasts high maneuverability (+9g), enhanced avionics, more powerful engines, and a longer range than its predecessor Su-27 jet fighter.

The aircraft is equipped with high-capability weapon systems and can reach Mach 2.25 speed (2,390km/h).

The journalist pointed out that such Su-35's features as high fuel capacity and long range are also important for China, as they obviously will allow the geopolitical player to strengthen its positions in the South China Sea region.

South China Sea Air Defense Zone Hinges on Security Threats – Beijing
"Currently, Beijing has trouble maintaining a regular presence over the enormous waters, which are roughly 1.4 million square miles (2.25 million square kilometers)," the journalist elaborated.


Indeed, currently China's PLAAF fighters can carry out only limited patrols of the South China Sea's areas, as their fuel capacity strictly determines the time of the mission. In contrast, the Su-35's range and speed may solve this problem, the journalist noted.

Remarkably, the Su-35 fighter jet is not only on par with the US-made F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and the new F-35 fifth-generation stealth fighter, but is even outpacing them, according to the flight and weapons tests.

It is expected that China will buy 24 advanced fighters of this type by the end of this year, according to Russian jet manufacturer Yuri Slyusar, a chairman of United Aircraft Corp.

"Our position is that we still believe that we will sign the contract to sell 24 aircraft this year," Yuri Slyusar said, as quoted by Mr.Keck.


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## SecularNationalist

Now all that indian bragging of SU30MKI will go to gutter 
Su35 is the most advanced fighter of russian air force and there will be only two operators of this killing machine only russia and pakistan.

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## Mitro

Chinese are playing and financing this deal so Russia China and Pakistan may be Iran somethings is cooking


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## saadee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yaar I didn't read your entire post.. But u read your "russians agreed to supply" part..
> 
> I mean are you guys f... stupid ? This "confirmation" came weeks after the russian defence ministers statement about negotiations for SU-35 with Pak....
> 
> 
> I mean bc I heard the same shitty logic when the rumours about Pak buying MI-35Es were heard ..
> 
> Come on boy... There have been many high level visits.. Naval ex,port calls by PN .. Army chief n defence minister visits,.,, planned military exercises,russia helped us open an MI repair n overhaul factory,MI-35E deal,Russians marketing their equipment at IDEAS 2015,Demos to our COAS,support on SCO etc etc...
> 
> You guys are living in a bubble ... It's politics kiddo...
> 
> Deal with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar even if we don't buy it... Still it's a big deal russia offering its latest hardware to Pak... That hasn't happened since the 90s when russia offered us SU-27..
> 
> These guys were out mortal enemies and India's best buddies remember?
> 
> It's a geopolitical shift.


Honestly speaking, I think Russian is trying to bring India back on the table


----------



## SecularNationalist

engineer saad said:


> Baray hi beghairat nikle russians,
> Itni jaldi afghanistan mein haar ka ghum bhula diya.


That,s how the modern geo politics work.There are no permanent friends and enemies.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

saadee said:


> Honestly speaking, I think Russian is trying to bring India back on the table


Or russia knows about the recent indo-us live affair and indias dependency in Russia ... And the fast changing geopolitical shift in the region...?

Eminent international scholars talk about Paks important geopolitical location... Pakistanis like us claim its ALLAH whose running the country...

I chose to believe it's both...
Think about it...

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## Zarvan

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Can someone post full Article.


PAF should go for 3 squadrons at least. We need much bigger Air Force and deal should be finalized soon

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SecularNationalist said:


> That,s how the modern geo politics work.There are no permanent friends and enemies.




Do you remember rozgin "spit in my mouth if russia sells weapons to Pak" statement ??


Article from 2012:

Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes

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## Zarvan

Ind4Ever said:


> Tricky and interesting one if true. BUT I DONT SEE many celebrating it as a victory even before war concludes . So hold with your crackers. There are two probabilities.
> 
> 1) During discussion Pakistan might had shown willingness to buy su35 . So formal request bren made and pure chinese game play here . As this article just said Both "DISCUSSED" about it . So we can conform request formally made . But it doesn't mean russians agreed to supply Su35 . I guess they might had gave some blind hope to let the process take its own course . As recently Russians denied any such intent with stronger the iron and deeper than ocean sentiment towards India .
> 
> 2) Now this is every important view . Russians probably using Pakistan as their bait for Modi's Moscow visit. As of now India has huge upper hand in Indo russia dialogue . At the time when US opening up to India in a very high quality weapon system levels and as of now russian economy is doomed not to forget India already decided to make In India not just buying and aims to be self reliance in defence . I think screws are been tightened for huge defence deals from india . Most probably Off the shelf Pakfa like we did to the French . If we can throw away our Make in India for france why we would not do the same with our official Ally that too when they need money like in trucks load
> 
> 
> So dont get carried away . Old article with one more source from pakistan just conformed it but why we are forgetting russian reply which the utterly denied it with strong words . Naming Pakistan as their enemy no 1 of the ally India ?


No Russian denied in fact the one who told the news was deputy Foreign Minister that is a serious post .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> PAF should go for 3 squadrons at least. We need much bigger Air Force and deal should be finalized soon



O maulvi hath hola Rakh.,, 2 Sqds are enough for now .. Military muscle is only viable if you gave economic muscle... Both go hand in hand.

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## MastanKhan

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe miya masoom the proof of pudding is in eating when russians declare it themselfs and you pay the money then talk



Guru,

Proof is in the pudding and not in the " eating ".

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> O maulvi hath hola Rakh.,, 2 Sqds are enough for now .. Military muscle is only viable if you gave economic muscle... Both go hand in hand.


Sir no body was talking about SU-35 till few months back when first news came me and @MastanKhan promoted thing and every body was in denial now I hope it would be at least 3 squadrons

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## MastanKhan

Tameem said:


> *Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 16 September 2015
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> (123 of 427 words)
> 
> @MastanKhan....your words on PAF??
> 
> @Donatello i start taking my shirt off and running towards American Embassy Where are you..
> 
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Can someone post full Article.



Hi,

Thank you for tagging me----I will hold onto my comments. I do not want to say anything inadvertently at this stage----. So---enjoy the news.

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## Zarvan

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I'll believe it when i see it.
> Given that our last modified batch of 42 flankers cost us around 100 million each,and we already had infrstructure set up.For PAF to acquire even 2 squadrons of around 40 along with armament and setting up infrstructure(plus su-35 being more advanced than MKI) -at least 5 billion dollars.
> And russia won't give any soft loans.So i can't see how PAF acquires this plane.


Only 5 billion dollars well than that won't be much issue

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## SecularNationalist

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you remember rozgin "spit in my mouth if russia sells weapons to Pak" statement ??
> 
> 
> Article from 2012:
> 
> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes


Mr rozgin is no longer in power and it,s 2015 not 2012.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SecularNationalist said:


> Mr rozgin is no longer in power and it,s 2015 not 2012.


Yaar bc thsts but the point... Geopolitics...

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## TigerJay

Czar786 said:


> Chinese are playing and financing this deal so Russia China and Pakistan may be Iran somethings is cooking



What really is cooking here is kinda simple. China has ordered only 24, which is a very small number even to reverse engineer. Which they definitely will. Also with India acquiring Rafaels there was an urgent need in PAF to counter it with a potent aircraft so with the help of Chinese friends they also jumped in. Most likely Pakistan will get at least 2 squadrons (as much as India is buying Rafaels) with most probably Chinese soft loan. In return if need be Pakistani planes will be made available for the Chinese to reverse engineer.



Czar786 said:


> Chinese are playing and financing this deal so Russia China and Pakistan may be Iran somethings is cooking


Su-35s deal may not sound big as a business deal but it will create panic and jolts in the Indian Foreign Ministry. it will be considered a huge success on the Pakistani IR front while it surely will be a black day for the Indian diplomacy.

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## Asli Lahori1

Zarvan said:


> Only 5 billion dollars well than that won't be much issue



May be Indians should return our 1947 money and that would solve all the issues. We will get SU 35s and our Indian friends worry of where we will get the money from will be resolved too. I am serious about it.

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## SecularNationalist

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yaar bc thsts but the point... The point is geopolitics...


yes now see after only 3 years they are offering us their most advanced fighter jet which is currently only being used by russian air force.

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## TigerJay

Asli Lahori1 said:


> May be Indians should return our 1947 money and that would solve all the issues. We will get SU 35s and our Indian friends worry of where we will get the money from will be resolved too. I am serious about it.



Lol, right on. Ki na Asli Laorion wali baat. Bulls eye.


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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> @batmannow looks like I've been owned


& that matters ?lolzz



Kurlang said:


> I doubt this news. Its a bait to lure India in. Russian are not dumb. Since they are cash strapped hence they want to play both sides and this is what is going to happen
> The Russians are going to start negotiations, some MoUs would also be signed, then will come the modalities and as usual the devil lies in the details, their will be good negotiations but suddenly, the Russians will find excuses to delay this deal.
> 
> My reason for presenting this analysis is based on the Russian treatment of the Iranian S-300 deal.


Iran was under sanctions from UN +EU +USA ?
Pakistan is not ?

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## TigerJay

SecularNationalist said:


> Now all that indian bragging of SU30MKI will go to gutter
> Su35 is the most advanced fighter of russian air force and there will be only two operators of this killing machine only russia and pakistan.



That is a little unfair and also untrue, my friend. India will be getting Rafaels. Su35 and Rafaels are very much comparable. Rafaels are as good for India as Su-35s are for Pakistan. The other part is, not just Russia and Pakistan but also China will fly these babies and before Pakistan.

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## batmannow

New Resolve said:


> If China was interested in SU35's they would have bought them ages ago, they havent. J11D has an AESA radar among many Chinese upgrades so i would consider a few squadrons to protect our maritime frontiers if Su35 is not available.
> Either way im sure if Pakistan was interested they would evaluate both before making a decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a childish argument. Who told you China built these under licence, they did not. The only thing stopping the chinese from selling these birds was the Aluyshin power plants. J11D uses Chinese WS10 power plants.


Kid then 
Pls buy just a few for us ?
My dear internet warrior ?lolzz


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## SecularNationalist

TigerJay said:


> That is a little unfair and also untrue, my friend. India will be getting Rafaels. Su35 and Rafaels are very much comparable. Rafaels are as good for India as Su-35s are for Pakistan. The other part is, not just Russia and Pakistan but also China will fly these babies and before Pakistan.


I cannot see china getting SU35


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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> Russia have nothing like the P-8 to offer India (a deal which was signed prior to Putin's visit), the MRCA was a 'tender' and the Rafale won. India and Russia ties are moving from a buyer/seller relationship to a joint development one like the Brahmos project.
> 
> Russian leaders greet Modi on birthday | Russia & India Report
> 
> President Putin in his message appreciated the Indian PM’s efforts to *“strengthen the relations of special and privileged strategic partnership between our countries,* develop Russian-Indian interaction in solving topical issues of the regional and global agenda
> 
> 
> Russia is still our number 1 strategic partner that will not change.


A minute ago you were ready with a big green one Sir!

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## TigerJay

batmannow said:


> & that matters ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Iran was under sanctions from UN +EU +USA ?
> Pakistan is not ?



Plus in the current scenario, who really cares about the sanctions from the west. Iranian Russian relations are much different than RussoPak relations. Pakistan is a key player in this region and specially after Gwadar and Corridor projects. People just keep forgetting the background and then insist their perceptive isn't flawed.



SecularNationalist said:


> I cannot see china getting SU35


Brother please read my previous posts. It will make things clear. I do not want to post the same things again and again and it will be the third time I will do it. If you can't find them I will post then. Let me know.

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## batmannow

TigerJay said:


> Plus in the current scenario, who really cares about the sanctions from the west. Iranian Russian relations are much different than RussoPak relations. Pakistan is a key player in this region and specially after Gwadar and Corridor projects. People just keep forgetting the background and then insist their perceptive isn't flawed.
> 
> 
> Brother please read my previous posts. It will make things clear. I do not want to post the same things again and again and it will be the third time I will do it. If you can't find them I will post then. Let me know.


All I can say let them drum their heads ?lolzz

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## SQ8

Serious doubts if it will ever happen. But if it does, both 8sq and 15sq make prime candidates.


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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> Russia have nothing like the P-8 to offer India (a deal which was signed prior to Putin's visit), the MRCA was a 'tender' and the Rafale won. India and Russia ties are moving from a buyer/seller relationship to a joint development one like the Brahmos project.
> 
> Russian leaders greet Modi on birthday | Russia & India Report
> 
> President Putin in his message appreciated the Indian PM’s efforts to *“strengthen the relations of special and privileged strategic partnership between our countries,* develop Russian-Indian interaction in solving topical issues of the regional and global agenda
> 
> 
> Russia is still our number 1 strategic partner that will not change.


Sure ,moodi jee will also make a Indian Marsala tea for Putin ?
That will make Russia more friendly ?lolzz


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## TigerJay

Zarvan said:


> Only 5 billion dollars well than that won't be much issue


Zarvan you're witty, I like that. Lol



batmannow said:


> All I can say let them drum their heads ?lolzz


batmannow I think aap dono ke peechay hain, jis ke peechay devil hai aur jo devil ke peechay hai. Lol


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## Dr Gupta

Humble Analyst said:


> A minute ago you were ready with a big green one Sir!



I did say 'if' Russia sells such hardware as the SU-35


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> I deny everything you wrote, because it's fucking stupid.
> 
> You have NO idea what you're talking about.


@mods 
Check the language of your think tank analyst here ?
So stupid ?or not ?



TigerJay said:


> Zarvan you're witty, I like that. Lol
> 
> 
> batmannow I think aap dono ke peechay hain, jis ke peechay devil hai aur jo devil ke peechay hai. Lol


Don't be fool & push the devil in your back ?lolzz

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## AsianLion

Bravo... Pakistan need to bolster its ‘defence and deterrence capability’... Delivery of SU-35 and Mi-35M will certainly enable us to counter emerging threat scenarios in the region...

Its good sign for pak foreign policy . FYI, Russia badly need money that's y they selling it now.

That's a really good move, not to rely only one country especially for defence, and India burns hard !!!


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## batmannow

AsianUnion said:


> Bravo... Pakistan need to bolster its ‘defence and deterrence capability’... Delivery of SU-35 and Mi-35M will certainly enable us to counter emerging threat scenarios in the region...
> 
> Its good sign for pak foreign policy . FYI, Russia badly need money that's y they selling it now.
> 
> That's a really good move, not to rely only one country especially for defence, and India burns hard !!!


Russia don't need money but it needs hot waters !

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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> I did say 'if' Russia sells such hardware as the SU-35


Russia will be no 1 strategic enemy to India in a very short future to come 
&
Russia will sell SU-35 to Pakistan & China & India is going to react stupidly ,giving Americans huge orders which will be partly received by India in 2045 ?lolz
& after that Russia will stop all of its supllies to Indian air force & its navy ?
that's what is going to happen ,after moodi jee serves best tea of his life to PUTIN ?lolzz

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## AsianLion

Now that is some news which will send shockwaves all across the globe. 

Imagine SU-35, F-16 block 52 and our own JF-17 flying in one formation, truly terrifying prospect for the enemies of Pakistan. PAF has always been a single engine jet airforce. This is a big leap from old thinking. We do need twin engine SU-35 not as a luxury but with rapid development of CPEC, we need long range jets which can protect our sea and trade lines deep into Arabian and Indian ocean....and yes gives Russia what it always wanted , access to warm waters.

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## Dr Gupta

batmannow said:


> Russia will be no 1 strategic enemy to India in a very short future to come
> &
> Russia will sell SU-35 to Pakistan & China & India is going to react stupidly ,giving Americans huge orders which will be partly received by India in 2045 ?lolz
> & after that Russia will stop all of its supllies to Indian air force & its navy ?
> that's what is going to happen ,after moodi jee serves best tea of his life to PUTIN ?lolzz




Buddy please speak sense and engage in meaningful debate as this is gibberish even a 10year old will laugh at you.


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## TigerJay

Oscar said:


> Serious doubts if it will ever happen. But if it does, both 8sq and 15sq make prime candidates.


You don't like No. 7 Squadron? Why so much hate? :p


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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> Buddy please speak sense and engage in meaningful debate as this is gibberish even a 10year old will laugh at you.


What you have written in the thread all of it , I.have same thoughts about it ?gibberish off course ?
Mig 35 ?lolzz
I mean whats the heck in making a tea cup for Putin , if moodi jee can do for Obama then why not for PTUIN ?LOLZZ

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## SQ8

TigerJay said:


> You don't like No. 7 Squadron? Why so much hate? :p


The Bandits already have their ROSE-III aircraft which are good for a bit more before its time for the JF-17(or the otherwise preplanned next generation low observable aircraft to replace them).

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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> @mods
> Check the language of your think tank analyst here ?
> So stupid ?or not ?


Go ahead. using foul language isn't against forum rules, as it gets blocked anyway.

Anyway, I stand by my comment that your points are stupid.


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> Go ahead. using foul language isn't against forum rules, as it gets blocked anyway.
> 
> Anyway, I stand by my comment that your points are stupid.


So stupid !lolzz


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## New Resolve

Another thing that might swing the Russians around is that if they dont sell to Pakistan then China will sell J11's so they might as well. China itself doesnt seem interested, ive been seeing news articles for the last 5 years about the Chinese signing or about to sign a deal but doesnt happen. Anyway good to see that a serious effort is being made to secure Pakistans Maritime Frontiers. A fighter with long legs will also be the tip of the spear that can hit targets deep in enemy territory.


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## That Guy

Mark Sien said:


> PAF doesn't talk for talking's sake. Yes, Pakistanis in general love doing that, but the Pakistani military doesn't, when it talks to vendors it is serious about a purchase (ask Saab about Erieye, Lockheed Martin about F-16, TKMS about U-214 before Zardari smothered it with a pillow and burned the corpse, Bell about AH-1Z, etc). If talks are real then there is some smoke behind this fire, but whether this actually comes to fruition remains to be seen, so let's wait, see, and speculate.


You'd be surprised how much talking is done, just for talking's sake. The recent warming of relations between Russia and Pakistan is going up, but there is no reason to believe that PAF is interested in the Su-35. Talking is done to maintain and improve relations, that is probably what is going on here.



batmannow said:


> So stupid !lolzz


I'm glad you finally agree.


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## TigerJay

That Guy said:


> You'd be surprised how much talking is done, just for talking's sake. The recent warming of relations between Russia and Pakistan is going up, but there is no reason to believe that PAF is interested in the Su-35. Talking is done to maintain and improve relations, that is probably what is going on here.
> 
> 
> I'm glad you finally agree.



Do you ever read from the thread or just talk for the sake of talking? So much has been shared here, you ought to have a look at it probably.



Oscar said:


> The Bandits already have their ROSE-III aircraft which are good for a bit more before its time for the JF-17(or the otherwise preplanned next generation low observable aircraft to replace them).


Thanks, I agree with you.



AsianUnion said:


> Now that is some news which will send shockwaves all across the globe.
> 
> Imagine SU-35, F-16 block 52 and our own JF-17 flying in one formation, truly terrifying prospect for the enemies of Pakistan. PAF has always been a single engine jet airforce. This is a big leap from old thinking. We do need twin engine SU-35 not as a luxury but with rapid development of CPEC, we need long range jets which can protect our sea and trade lines deep into Arabian and Indian ocean....and yes gives Russia what it always wanted , access to warm waters.



Spot on.


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## SQ8

At the end, this deal is quite unlikely simply for the reason that India will NEVER bear it happening. It will spend a billion to prevent Pakistan from spending 1 million on defence. That is the level of focus, preparedness or if you look at it another way fear/desperation they have of a military contingency with Pakistan. They want a whitewash against Pakistan or nothing else. 

This is not a cricket match and you know their psyche even in that.

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## AsianLion

Su35 is the perfect coastline defense due to its range, radar and weapons (dual engine is safety). It will replace all the mirages and be able to protect our naval assets and economic zone.

Mi35 is perfect to eradicate terrorism on Afghanistan side. There is hardly an alternative.

Both assets are needed to protect transit goods from and to china.

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## That Guy

TigerJay said:


> Do you ever read from the thread or just talk for the sake of talking? So much has been shared here, you ought to have a look at it probably.


And how does that relate to what I said?



AsianUnion said:


> Now that is some news which will send shockwaves all across the globe.
> 
> Imagine SU-35, F-16 block 52 and our own JF-17 flying in one formation, truly terrifying prospect for the enemies of Pakistan. PAF has always been a single engine jet airforce. This is a big leap from old thinking. We do need twin engine SU-35 not as a luxury but with rapid development of CPEC, we need long range jets which can protect our sea and trade lines deep into Arabian and Indian ocean....and yes gives Russia what it always wanted , access to warm waters.


That doesn't necessarily mean that the Su-35 is on the cards, and I don't buy any of the arguments that suggest PAF is in any way interested in the Sukhoi, especially since India probably already knows what the Su-35 is capable of.


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## TigerJay

That Guy said:


> You'd be surprised how much talking is done, just for talking's sake. The recent warming of relations between Russia and Pakistan is going up, but there is no reason to believe that PAF is interested in the Su-35. Talking is done to maintain and improve relations, that is probably what is going on here.



Too much use of probably's, but's. It's good to have an opinion but better to update yourself with the current news before you form an opinion. Just a humble suggestion.



That Guy said:


> That doesn't necessarily mean that the Su-35 is on the cards, and I don't buy any of the arguments that suggest PAF is in any way interested in the Sukhoi, especially since India probably already knows what the Su-35 is capable of


So you're trying to imply that if India knows about Su 35s capabilities, Su 35s will become useless for PAK suddenly? I am trying to find a good reasoning here. Also how is it implied that India has experience with Su 35s?



Oscar said:


> At the end, this deal is quite unlikely simply for the reason that India will NEVER bear it happening. It will spend a billion to prevent Pakistan from spending 1 million on defence. That is the level of focus, preparedness or if you look at it another way fear/desperation they have of a military contingency with Pakistan. They want a whitewash against Pakistan or nothing else.
> 
> This is not a cricket match and you know their psyche even in that.



That is true to some extent, but I believe you're looking at this scenario in an isolation. It's as much as about Chinese investments in Pakistan as well as Pakistan's Interest in matching Rafaels. So eventually this match is going to be not just between India and Pakistan but China playing the umpire. I believe the game is bigger than it looks now.

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## Taygibay

Tameem said:


> Imran Bhai, Just Imagine how it feel making real _*French toast*_ out of _*Rafael*_....through this monster......hmmm...crispy
> 
> @Taygibay.....



Well, Tameem, you can bet that respective performances if both faced-off in the next installment of the ****-Desi
disagreement would be used to bolster sales of the victor. I think the Raffy would do well-enough TYVM.

Of course if it doesn't happen ( the war, not the still very prospective deal ), civilians will be even more pleased IMHoO.

BTW let me scold you softly for Rafael use again. If it was that you only seemed to be so cross-eyed as to be
hard pressed to differentiate between a jet fighter and a tennis man, only your pride would suffer but …
it so happens that RAFAEL is an important enough military equipment maker if not a favorite in Pakistan. 
Confusion arises from that misspelling that may shroud the less astute if you see what I mean.

Good evening in your home and land, Tay.


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## war&peace

Beethoven said:


> I still believe going for SU-35 is not a sane idea....better utilize those funds for procuring additional -16's


Totally disagreed. F-16 is an old airplane and cannot match a 4.5 generation Su-35....It is a huge gap plus.....US control.....no way that will be a suicide....sanctions, no openness, their bossy behaviour and now it is time for us to change all that and for the good.

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## That Guy

TigerJay said:


> Too much use of probably's, but's. It's good to have an opinion but better to update yourself with the current news before you form an opinion. Just a humble suggestion.


Listen, most of what I've said is pretty much common thinking; Take @Oscar, for example, he'd agree that there is little to no reason to think that PAF is going to buy Sukhois, in fact, he does.



Oscar said:


> At the end, this deal is quite unlikely simply for the reason that India will NEVER bear it happening. It will spend a billion to prevent Pakistan from spending 1 million on defence. That is the level of focus, preparedness or if you look at it another way fear/desperation they have of a military contingency with Pakistan. They want a whitewash against Pakistan or nothing else.
> 
> This is not a cricket match and you know their psyche even in that.



His point about money is also valid as well, though I don't think it's the biggest issue.

The "probably" and "but" come from reasonable deduction work, as there is little to no material to work with. There is literally ZERO evidence to suggest that PAF will buy the Sukhoi.



> So you're trying to imply that if India knows about Su 35s capabilities, Su 35s will become useless for PAK suddenly? I am trying to find a good reasoning here. Also how is it implied that India has experience with Su 35s?


That's not what I'm saying. The problem is that India (as it is close to Russia and operates slightly older variants) has a deeper understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the fighter. It would have a tactical advantage over PAF, if the SU-35 were to go against IAF, simply because the IAF has been practicing with the platform for much longer. This is another reason why the IAF rejected the F-16IN, as PAF had a much better understanding of the F-16s.

These seemingly little things give huge advantages to the side that takes advantage of them.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Serious doubts if it will ever happen. But if it does, both 8sq and 15sq make prime candidates.



Hmm, i can't say anything, but dynamics of the region are changing man. Russia lost all its allies in the middle east, it is bloody desperate to have something and someone to partner up and show finger to the west. Putin has never been the most 'mentally stable' man, he is a man of mystery.

If SU35 deal ever does happen, i would really want to know what did we offer in return, and it definitely won't be cash (that India can readily supply just to sabotage the deal)

Secondly, what if China wants these jets positioned, and China will always have more leverage over Russia than India.


Apart from that, your Indian concerns are genuine, but then they couldn't sabotage the MAR-1 deal with Brazil, F-16s with USA, AH-1Zs, Mi35s with Russia, etc.

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## wiseone2

batmannow said:


> Russia don't need money but it needs hot waters !



Russia needs money. Checked crude prices lately ??



batmannow said:


> Russia don't need money but it needs hot waters !



Checked crude prices lately ??
Russia needs money more than ever


----------



## wiseone2

Humble Analyst said:


> India bought Poseidon 8 from USA, Rafale from France, maybe you already spat on Russia and let them down who stood by India for 67 years. Try to see things from others point of view not always your side.



Rafale is prudent diversification. I doubt Russians would object to iy.

Russians ought to be concerned about Indian purchases of C-17, C-130J, P-8I and potential acquisitions of Apache and Chinook choppers.

India has thrown a lot of $$$ to Russia for Su-30, Mi-17, MiG-29K, T-90S. I doubt they are hurting


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## New Resolve

Su35 will not happen unless the chinese are behind it in terms of clout and other guarantees with Russia.

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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> I did say 'if' Russia sells such hardware as the SU-35


Understand what you said, but once you went to France and signed 36 Rafales cannot blame Russia to sell Su35 to Pakistan or you can stop it order 72 SU35s



wiseone2 said:


> Rafale is prudent diversification. I doubt Russians would object to iy.
> 
> Russians ought to be concerned about Indian purchases of C-17, C-130J, P-8I and potential acquisitions of Apache and Chinook choppers.
> 
> India has thrown a lot of $$$ to Russia for Su-30, Mi-17, MiG-29K, T-90S. I doubt they are hurting


Rafale is prudent from your point of view not Russian.


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## TigerJay

That Guy said:


> That's not what I'm saying. The problem is that India (as it is close to Russia and operates slightly older variants) has a deeper understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the fighter. It would have a tactical advantage over PAF, if the SU-35 were to go against IAF, simply because the IAF has been practicing with the platform for much longer. This is another reason why the IAF rejected the F-16IN, as PAF had a much better understanding of the F-16s.
> 
> These seemingly little things give huge advantages to the side that takes advantage of them.



I would humbly disagree sir. There's a need to look at this situation in a different perspective.
1 Chinese are buying 24 of these planes. As you must know 24 is not the kind of number China would be interested in if they are not looking to reverse engineer it. Even to RE they need more than just 24.
2 India is purchasing Rafaels soon, and Pakistan is out of options to match it, except for one that is Su 35s.
3. The current Chinese investments in Pakistan require maritime patrolling and a need for deeper penetration as well as counter threats with the only available 4++ gen aircraft to PAF.
4. In this whole deal Pakistan might have been less interested if Chinese were not involved. It is China that needs Pakistan to upgrade it's security.

So Pakistan will not reject Su 35s deal just because IAF had been flying Russian platforms. Also as per current news PAF pilots were getting training in J11Ds, that is not purposeless.

I hope I have made my point clear while trying to keep it shortest possible.



New Resolve said:


> Su35 will not happen unless the chinese are behind it in terms of clout and other guarantees with Russia.


They are behind this whole deal.



wiseone2 said:


> Russia needs money. Checked crude prices lately ??
> 
> 
> 
> Checked crude prices lately ??
> Russia needs money more than ever



Have you checked your head lately?
It might have been stuck in your butt.

Can you never leave the Indian logic behind? The same logic which put Bharat on the wrong side of history before and even now.

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## Knight Rider

Every Body was saying the same for MI-35M Hinds that Pakistan will not get it look what happened,we finally got the (Flying Tanks).






You Indian are always in a shock if Pakistan get something remember RD-93 Engines For JF-17 Thunders.

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## TigerJay

Knight Rider said:


> Every Body was saying the same for MI-35M Hinds that Pakistan will not get it look what happened,we finally got the (Flying Tanks).



I love these babies. They are so cute.

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## dadeechi

Donatello said:


> Hmm, i can't say anything, but dynamics of the region are changing man. Russia lost all its allies in the middle east, it is bloody desperate to have something and someone to partner up and show finger to the west. Putin has never been the most 'mentally stable' man, he is a man of mystery.
> 
> If SU35 deal ever does happen, i would really want to know what did we offer in return, and it definitely won't be cash (that India can readily supply just to sabotage the deal)
> 
> Secondly, what if China wants these jets positioned, and China will always have more leverage over Russia than India.
> 
> 
> Apart from that, your Indian concerns are genuine, but then they couldn't sabotage the MAR-1 deal with Brazil, F-16s with USA, AH-1Zs, Mi35s with Russia, etc.



Excellent.Yes, the key question is what does Russia want from Pakistan which India cannot provide

Money .. Absolutely NOT

Opposition to US .......hmm debatable

Support against terrorism .. May be

Customer diversification ...... Yes (India does not have an alternative to Russia)

Access to Arabian Sea ..... Absolutely without a doubt

Opposition to (US through) India ..... Absolutely without a doubt

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## Quwa

That Guy said:


> You'd be surprised how much talking is done, just for talking's sake. The recent warming of relations between Russia and Pakistan is going up, but there is no reason to believe that PAF is interested in the Su-35. Talking is done to maintain and improve relations, that is probably what is going on here.
> 
> 
> I'm glad you finally agree.


Sure but Russia and Pakistan already have things to talk about, e.g. RD-93, counterterrorism, approaches to international issues such as Syria, SCO, etc. There's enough relationship building talk material here to make Su-35 a non-starter. But the reality seems to be that the Su-35 is on the agenda, especially when it would have been easy for both parties to mutually deny it, they're instead letting the smoke run. But we all have to accept that things are in their early stages, if true, we'll find out the specifics in the coming months.

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## Ind4Ever

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yaar I didn't read your entire post.. But u read your "russians agreed to supply" part..
> 
> I mean are you guys f... stupid ? This "confirmation" came weeks after the russian defence ministers statement about negotiations for SU-35 with Pak....
> 
> 
> I mean bc I heard the same shitty logic when the rumours about Pak buying MI-35Es were heard ..
> 
> Come on boy... There have been many high level visits.. Naval ex,port calls by PN .. Army chief n defence minister visits,.,, planned military exercises,russia helped us open an MI repair n overhaul factory,MI-35E deal,Russians marketing their equipment at IDEAS 2015,Demos to our COAS,support on SCO etc etc...
> 
> You guys are living in a bubble ... It's politics kiddo...
> 
> Deal with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar even if we don't buy it... Still it's a big deal russia offering its latest hardware to Pak... That hasn't happened since the 90s when russia offered us SU-27..
> 
> These guys were out mortal enemies and India's best buddies remember?
> 
> It's a geopolitical shift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah J series is essentially the same thing with a chinese flavour ..you chinese are real good brother ...
> I won't shy away from saying that China is a role model for Pak...
> 
> Specially our shitty leadership...



Well you dint gone through my post fully . So I guess you dint get what I have said . I dont know hoe to react to your half naked reply . Anyways to break your bubble let talk turkey here . Call spade a spade . Now what has proved in this article ? Russians agreed to supply Su35 ? NO 

Even though tgis article came after russians utter denial on this deal there is no substance other than simple truth about discussion took place . 

For example If India asked US for B2 and made it formally through PMO or MOD what US could say ? They will opt for diplomatic no . And both side would conforms the discussion but will the deal go through ? 

Never . But am not saying its not possible . But very slim probabilities to become reality


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## alee92nawaz

SecularNationalist said:


> Mr rozgin is no longer in power and it,s 2015 not 2012.


At that time putin wanted to visit Pakistan and it got cancelled due our political bull's poo poo...they were angry...n pak Russia relationship was restored in November 2014

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Apart from that, your Indian concerns are genuine, but then they couldn't sabotage the MAR-1 deal with Brazil, F-16s with USA, AH-1Zs, Mi35s with Russia, etc.



One cannot begin to explain how hard they tried. Literally pulled every string they could at MAR-1. There is another reason why Pakistan's weapons deals are kept secret till the end and that is to ensure that the Indians get the word of it at the latest.

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## alee92nawaz

Bossman said:


> and the $5billion dollar blk 52 or the 2 billion Erieye deal etc etc paid for by Martians as they become threatened by the Indian space ship. Get your head out of your a$$ and smell the roses for a change. Indian inherent bias and delusions will be Pakistan's best asset in the future. No major weapons deals is doen on lump sum cash, they are all financed. There is more to this deal which catches the eye and looking at it from a narrow banyia perspective is wrong. Go look for one of my posts on this topic few days ago and you will see the larger strategic implications involving China as well as Russia and Pakistan.


Pakistan is buying 8 subs and its not a joke...mainly for cpec....Pakistan will buy some fighter of sukhois class anytime soon if not sukhoi


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## GURU DUTT

AtiF Malang said:


> Guru ji app ka kiya kehna hai
> Pehlae ap farma rahae tay kay helicopter aur jets main bohot farak hai aur russia Pakistan ki es silsilae main baat chet he nahi
> Abhi kuch aur
> Jab Su35 ajaen gae tab kahae ge we got PakFa
> DIL BEHLANAE KO BOLAE GURU YEH KHWAB ACHA HAI
> 
> [QUOTE ="Junaid B, post: 7659478, member: 161037"]
> 
> *Meanwhile in India
> 
> *


challo ji aap bhi khush ho lo jab PAF colours me Su-35s aa jayen tab mai khud pakistan aake apke mithaee khilwaoonga aur wo bhi apne paise se per tab .... dil behlane ko ghalib khayaal achha hai.... kyon ji  



MastanKhan said:


> Guru,
> 
> Proof is in the pudding and not in the " eating ".


you sure mastaan saheb  


ok ok your talking about your emotional hub bul watans .... am i right 



Ranasikander said:


> You dont worry about pakiatan and same for you, only talk when india sign a deal for rafale.
> 
> We are hearing the about lca inductions and mmrca since childhood.


but do you see indians going ballistic about prospects of rafale in IAF 

lolss most of them are against rafale in IAF even when we have money to buy them and frenchies are trying every trick in the book to inflate owr order and those same frenchies catagorricalli declined to give advanced avioniks to the god gift to aviation and the supreme DSI tech enballed plane 

first let russians declare it themselfs and PAF signing the deal with russia for the su-35s ...... till then all such rumours are rumours and nothing else .... but as they say ... dil behlane ko ghalib khayaal achha hai... kyon ji


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## Knight Rider

Confirmation Of SU-35s deal of Pakistan with Russia.

Pakistan in talks with Russia to buy Sukhoi jets - thenews.com.pk

Pakistan and Russia discussing combat jet deal

Indian are speechless now.

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## GURU DUTT

Muhammad Omar said:


> Wait and Watch...
> 
> And BTW first statement Came From Russian Foreign Minister not From Pakistani Source


ya right when you have then try to make fun of indians as they say dont count your chickens till they hatch..... per wo kya kahen hain.... dil behlaane ko ghalib khayaal achaa hai


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## raazh

GURU DUTT said:


> ya right when you have then try to make fun of indians as they say dont count your chickens till they hatch..... per wo kya kahen hain.... dil behlaane ko ghalib khayaal achaa hai



You really wana go there ?? you do know about LCA, MMRCA, AMCA, FGFA and what not. Why comment when you have nothing good to add ?

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## GURU DUTT

raazh said:


> You really wana go there ?? you do know about LCA, MMRCA, AMCA, FGFA and what not. Why comment when you have nothing good to add ?


well unlike pakistanies who start making cloud castels as soon as there is any such news we indians onli boost on owr current strenths and make no mercy in calling names to corrupt in owr air force , army or any other part of goverment .... as for the thread i just said that proof of pudding is in eating it and four senior PDF members came calling ... i guess i touched a raw nerve there .... kyon haina


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## nwmalik

OMG.
This is becoming another India VS Pakistan thread


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## raazh

GURU DUTT said:


> well unlike pakistanies who start making cloud castels as soon as there is any such news we indians onli boost on owr current strenths and make no mercy in calling names to corrupt in owr air force , army or any other part of goverment .... as for the thread i just said that proof of pudding is in eating it and four senior PDF members came calling ... i guess i touched a raw nerve there .... kyon haina



Did you read what I wrote ?? Are you sure u just boast ur current strengths only ?? Do you know how long you guys have been bragging about LCA, MMRCA, AMCA, FGFA on this forum ?? In case you have forgotten then I suggest you go to their respective threads and look at the dates on first posts. You are never having a pudding again


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## GURU DUTT

raazh said:


> Did you read what I wrote ?? Are you sure u just boast ur current strengths only ?? Do you know how long you guys have been bragging about LCA, MMRCA, AMCA, FGFA on this forum ?? In case you have forgotten then I suggest you go to their respective threads and look at the dates on first posts. You are never having a pudding again


well sirji we dont talk onli but while talking we also keep doing owr work as there is no substitute to hard work and thats the main reason why russia, france , britain or USA wants to sell there cutting edge stuff to us ... owr problem is we are not a rich nation like pakistan who has "friends" to finance its defnce purchases so we have to make a wise deccission

now about LCA well its almost done and already in process of induction till date it has done more than 3000 flying hours testing and already has DASH HMDS, El/M-2032 ,7+1 Hard points that can carry more than 4T of wepons or feul load a very small RCS and intigrated with Lightnin3-G3 LDP and all kinds or dump and laser and pricission guided munations + with R-77,R73, Python5, Derby & I Derby ER

as for MRCA 36 rafales on order

as for FGFA its on order too

AMCA in final wind tunnel testing

so whats your point even if Tejas , Rafale or FGFA is not there still we have some 110+Mig29s and 53 M2Ks + 210 MKIs and 150 Bisons and 120+ jags (all of whome are BVR Capable)

now about Su-35 well its onli pakistanies who are sying rudssia will sell su-35s to them ... great and good luck .... point is do you have money to buy them and what about setting up spare and training and maintenece infra from ground s up do you know how much money that takes ... so why should we be worried when owr MKI is already destinned to starts it own super sukhoi MLU which will give it a much needed AESA based Radar and EW suites and self protection jammers + new engines .... how will your PAF counter that even if you forget rafale or FGFA/PAKFA.... so nanhe miya masoom whats your point i ask again thank you 

but as for pudding well we are already having a feast ... dont trust me look at behaviour of UK , USA , Israel , Russia , france , australia , Japan , UAE , Saudi arabia towards india and how they treat pakistan vice versa  ... baat samjh me aayee ki nahi

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## Kakaspai

ok.guru ji you won.Trophy milni chaiay apko.Kamal ka argument krty ho.waah waah


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## Dr Gupta

Humble Analyst said:


> Understand what you said, but once you went to France and signed 36 Rafales cannot blame Russia to sell Su35 to Pakistan or you can stop it order 72 SU35s
> 
> 
> Rafale is prudent from your point of view not Russian.




Let's put it this way if and when Russia sells the fighter to Pakistan it will from my view change the dynamics of Indo-Russian defence relationship. These are not a few attack helicopters we talking about but one of the world's most sophisticated jets which potentially has regional consequences.


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## AUSTERLITZ

If this indeed becomes reality we have 2 options -

1.Expand rafale deal to 100 plus with meteor BVR.
2.Buy 3-4 squadrons su-35 from russia ourselves on the condition of sabotaging PAF deal and also fast tracking super sukhoi upgrade.Since the money involved in our deals will far exceed theirs we can outbid PAF.

We have to keep this plane out of pakistani hands by hook or crook,it will outclass MKI-the small RCS and irbis radar is most dangerous.And it also has TVC.

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## [Bregs]

Russian need hard cash after economic sanctions to keep running its defense industry. they wish to start selling weapons to Pakistan just like they doing with china and india. if pak has hard cash they will certainly sell it to them. India too seems to have traveled too far now by diversifying its weapons procurement from many sources now


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## New Resolve

AUSTERLITZ said:


> If this indeed becomes reality we have 2 options -
> 
> 1.Expand rafale deal to 100 plus with meteor BVR.
> 2.Buy 3-4 squadrons su-35 from russia ourselves on the condition of sabotaging PAF deal and also fast tracking super sukhoi upgrade.Since the money involved in our deals will far exceed theirs we can outbid PAF.
> 
> We have to keep this plane out of pakistani hands by hook or crook,it will outclass MKI-the small RCS and irbis radar is most dangerous.And it also has TVC.



wah jee wah, only a $50 billion dollar deal, Paisay Bollywood walay dain gay. Modi cant even afford 36 rafales. India can not buy everyone off all the time. You guys will struggle to please both the French and Russians at the same time.

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## AtiF Malang

GURU DUTT said:


> challo ji aap bhi khush ho lo jab PAF colours me Su-35s aa jayen tab mai khud pakistan aake apke mithaee khilwaoonga aur wo bhi apne paise se per tab .... dil behlane ko ghalib khayaal achha hai.... kyon ji
> 
> 
> you sure mastaan saheb
> 
> 
> ok ok your talking about your emotional hub bul watans .... am i right
> 
> 
> but do you see indians going ballistic about prospects of rafale in IAF
> 
> lolss most of them are against rafale in IAF even when we have money to buy them and frenchies are trying every trick in the book to inflate owr order and those same frenchies catagorricalli declined to give advanced avioniks to the god gift to aviation and the supreme DSI tech enballed plane
> 
> first let russians declare it themselfs and PAF signing the deal with russia for the su-35s ...... till then all such rumours are rumours and nothing else .... but as they say ... dil behlane ko ghalib khayaal achha hai... kyon ji


Guru meethai ne chahae bas app apna name guru say change karlae 
Ya pher trolling guru rakh lena 
Yeh kafi hoga

Some hindustanis dream that Modi chae wala has doller printing machine 
Jab jitna dil kiya chap liya 
Millions aur billions to kuch be nahi 
Come on hindustaniyo if you have so much money why don't you improve health senitation education and other things .


New Resolve said:


> wah jee wah, only a $50 billion dollar deal, Paisay Bollywood walay dain gay. Modi cant even afford 36 rafales. India can not buy everyone off all the time. You guys will struggle to please both the French and Russians at the same time.


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## GURU DUTT

AtiF Malang said:


> Guru meethai ne chahae bas app apna name guru say change karlae
> Ya pher trolling guru rakh lena
> Yeh kafi hoga
> 
> Some hindustanis dream that Modi chae wala has doller printing machine
> Jab jitna dil kiya chap liya
> Millions aur billions to kuch be nahi
> Come on hindustaniyo if you have so much money why don't you improve health senitation education and other things .

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## AtiF Malang

GURU DUTT said:


>


Guru ji app b maha det ho 
Mi35 kay bad agar apki jaga main hota to kabhi dobra argue nahi krta


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## GURU DUTT

AtiF Malang said:


> Guru ji app b maha det ho
> Mi35 kay bad agar apki jaga main hota to kabhi dobra argue nahi krta


sheher bassa nahi luterre pehle aa gaye .... dont worry keep dreaming and making cloud castels who cares ... cheers mate


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## aliyusuf

@Dr Gupta 

That dynamics has already changed, regardless of whether the Su-35 talks lead to a deal or not. 

Russia and India are strategically headed towards opposing camps now. But that does not mean that there won't be future deals between India and Russia. Whatever is mutually beneficial will happen. But as time goes on, there will be less and less strategic commonality and reduced mutually beneficial interests between the two. This has nothing to do with Pakistan or this deal.

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## Pindi Boy

A country with 120 cr people which has its largest arms supplier with a population of 7 million.



GURU DUTT said:


> sheher bassa nahi luterre pehle aa gaye .... dont worry keep dreaming and making cloud castels who cares ... cheers mate


A country with 120 cr people which has its largest arms supplier with a population of 7 million.


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> A country with 120 cr people which has its largest arms supplier with a population of 7 million.
> 
> 
> A country with 120 cr people which has its largest arms supplier with a population of 7 million.


so whats your point .... amm khane se matlab rakho guthliyan ginne me kya hai .... we do that cause we can .... why you botherred we are not asking you to finance it .... or are we

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> You'd be surprised how much talking is done, just for talking's sake. The recent warming of relations between Russia and Pakistan is going up, but there is no reason to believe that PAF is interested in the Su-35. Talking is done to maintain and improve relations, that is probably what is going on here.
> 
> 
> I'm glad you finally agree.


That's who you are ?so stupid !lolzz



wiseone2 said:


> Russia needs money. Checked crude prices lately ??
> 
> 
> 
> Checked crude prices lately ??
> Russia needs money more than ever


Last time I checked the most poorest countries RUSSIA was still way below then INDIA ?LOLZZ



GURU DUTT said:


> so whats your point .... amm khane se matlab rakho guthliyan ginne me kya hai .... we do that cause we can .... why you botherred we are not asking you to finance it .... or are we


We are discussing su 35 in Pakistani skies , not mangos or 


GURU DUTT said:


> so whats your point .... amm khane se matlab rakho guthliyan ginne me kya hai .... we do that cause we can .... why you botherred we are not asking you to finance it .... or are we


No you can ask , cause you know we don't ?lolzz

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## Dr Gupta

aliyusuf said:


> @Dr Gupta
> 
> That dynamics has already changed, regardless of whether the Su-35 talks lead to a deal or not.
> 
> Russia and India are strategically headed towards opposing camps now. But that does not mean that there won't be future deals between India and Russia. Whatever is mutually beneficial will happen. *But as time goes on, there will be less and less strategic commonality and reduced mutually beneficial interests between the two*. This has nothing to do with Pakistan or this deal.




I disagree with you entirely the ties are getting more stronger as we have seen in the last few months.

Chabahar: The ‘missing’ link to Eurasia | Russia & India Report

ONGC pays just over $1.25 bln for Vankor stake: source| Reuters

Russia and India move towards common scientific research domain | Russia & India Report

Also this month - September deals

Modi will be making a state visit to Russia and there will be much momentum in Indo-Russian ties.


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## ghauri05

Just one question...IF this deal materializes then
how SU35 sthands against SU30 MKI n Rafael....???
what will be our advantage ???

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## zebra7

ghauri05 said:


> Just one question...IF this deal materializes then
> how SU35 sthands against SU30 MKI n Rafael....???
> what will be our advantage ???


Good question I also want to know the advantage of su35 as compared to super sukhoi30mki and rafale f4r. Any expert pls lay some light on this.


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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> I disagree with you entirely the ties are getting more stronger as we have seen in the last few months.
> 
> Chabahar: The ‘missing’ link to Eurasia | Russia & India Report
> 
> ONGC pays just over $1.25 bln for Vankor stake: source| Reuters
> 
> Russia and India move towards common scientific research domain | Russia & India Report
> 
> Also this month - September deals
> 
> Modi will be making a state visit to Russia and there will be much momentum in Indo-Russian ties.





Sure mood I can't visit & can make his best tea cup for Putin of his life but , it can't stop any sell of SU35 to Pakistan ?
Do you know what moodi do best ?
Making a cup of tea ?right at least OBAMA told that to Putin to try moodi as a tea boy instead the PM of India ?









Vs


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## aliyusuf

Dr Gupta said:


> I disagree with you entirely the ties are getting more stronger as we have seen in the last few months.
> 
> Chabahar: The ‘missing’ link to Eurasia | Russia & India Report
> 
> ONGC pays just over $1.25 bln for Vankor stake: source| Reuters
> 
> Russia and India move towards common scientific research domain | Russia & India Report
> 
> Also this month - September deals
> 
> Modi will be making a state visit to Russia and there will be much momentum in Indo-Russian ties.



Like I said, "as time goes on" ... so let time pass. Whatever you are seeing unfolding today is the effect of steps and policies of several years in the past. What you will see in the future will be the steps and policies today. To many things have happened and are happening to bring about an immediate visible change. The projects that have already been set in motion will go on as usual. Chabahar is just one project with more emphasis on Central Asia and Afghanistan and it is more to do with India's access to Central Asia, Afghanistan and some parts of eastern Europe.

You don't have to agree to me. But in my opinion the change that you say will arise if this happened is already in motion the effects of which you will see in future.

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## abdulbarijan

ghauri05 said:


> Just one question...IF this deal materializes then
> how SU35 sthands against SU30 MKI n Rafael....???
> what will be our advantage ???



*The deal is still a big "IF" -- because the only confirmation we have had is the "talks are being held" -- whether this leads to a deal or not ... nobody knows as of now *... there is still a lot to consider ...

However lets suppose a deal was to be confirmed, as far as the "advantage" of SU-35 goes, usually the advantages are not noted in as ... Our aircraft X has this this and that advantage versus the adversary's aircraft Y ...

The advantage is noted/considered in the sense of what capability it brings to our airforce ... and to put it simply we would have the ability to do deadly deep strikes via our aircrafts and give our navy a very potent air arm ... that is more or less the crux of it all ..

Another factor would be ... what configuration of SU-35 we end up getting .. because there would be a high level of customization involved keeping in view that we would be operating Russian, American and Chinese jets all at the same time in an era where the concepts in use is network centric warfare ...

If the configuration we end up getting, has the luxury of integrating Chinese/Pakistani weapons ( + future weapons we acquire from other countries .. eg . A darter etc. ) and the luxury of customizing it where we can have the radar electronics of our choice from say China ... _*then the balance of power in the air, technologically atleast, would be the first time "balanced" since the "lost decade" ...*_

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> One cannot begin to explain how hard they tried. Literally pulled every string they could at MAR-1. *There is another reason why Pakistan's weapons deals are kept secret till the end and that is to ensure that the Indians get the word of it at the latest.*



......which is why if this Su35 rumors were a slip of tongue by the Russian DFM, then PAF would be pretty pissed. In any case, India is a nation which if put its resources where they mattered, would actually gain more than trying to sabotage defense deals for Pakistan.

A nation of 1.2 billion is insecure by such a small country. Do we even need to fight them ever?

Plus look at the bright side. In the next 10-20 years, China alone will be able to supply every capable hardware to kill Indians. Meaning, even if worst case scenario we cannot get deals with the rest of the world, we are assured a reliable all forms arms market......an arms market which is willing to finance as well.

That my friend, is then, amusing and wonderful.


BTW, why didn't the Brazilians stop for Indians?

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## ice_man

if SU35s are something we considering why not consider the GRIPPEN used versions. they are swedish easily integrated with EREIYE.

and one damn good fighter with quick turn around and easy to maintain compared to the dual engine Sukhois


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## Muhammad Omar

ice_man said:


> if SU35s are something we considering why not consider the GRIPPEN used versions. they are swedish easily integrated with EREIYE.
> 
> and one damn good fighter with quick turn around and easy to maintain compared to the dual engine Sukhois



Gripen Vs JF-17

JAS-39 Gripen / JF-17 Thunder / F-20 Tigershark

Length: 14.1m / 14.4m / 14.4m
Height: 4.5m / 4.77m / 4.2m
Wing span: 8.4m / 9.0m / 8.13m
Empty weight: 6,800kg / 6,586kg / 5,090kg
Internal fuel: 2,000kg / 2,186kg / ?
Total load capacity: 5,300kg / 3,800kg / ?
Max TOW: 14,000kg / 12,400kg / 11,920kg
Max Speed: M2.0 / M1.6 / M2.0
Service ceiling: 50,000ft (15,240m) / 55,000ft (16,764m) / 55,000 ft (16,764m)
Engine: RM-12 / RD-93 / GE F404
Maximum Engine thrust: 18,000lb (8,164kg) / 19,000lb (8,618kg) / 17,000lb (7,700kg)
Thrust to weight ratio: 0.92 / 0.98 / 1.1
G limit: +9.0, -3 / +8.5, -3 / ?
Ferry range: 3,200km (2,000miles) / 3,480km (2,160miles) / 2,759km (1,715miles)
Combat radius: 800km (500miles) / 1,352km (840miles) / 556km (345miles)
Hardpoints: 8 / 7 / 7

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## Dr Gupta

aliyusuf said:


> Like I said, "as time goes on" ... so let time pass. Whatever you are seeing unfolding today is the effect of steps and policies of several years in the past. What you will see in the future will be the steps and policies today. To many things have happened and are happening to bring about an immediate visible change. The projects that have already been set in motion will go on as usual. Chabahar is just one project with more emphasis on Central Asia and Afghanistan and it is more to do with India's access to Central Asia, Afghanistan and some parts of eastern Europe.
> 
> You don't have to agree to me. But in my opinion the change that you say will arise if this happened is already in motion the effects of which you will see in future.



Russia has also agreed with Iran and India on the INSTC project, also Pakistan and India are full members of the Shanghai corporation which I hope being neighbours we can improve our ties as it will benefit both nations.


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## Super Falcon

ghauri05 said:


> Just one question...IF this deal materializes then
> how SU35 sthands against SU30 MKI n Rafael....???
> what will be our advantage ???


Dont worry SU 35 is baap of SU 30 in all aspects

And compare it with rafale u see the difference

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## ice_man

Muhammad Omar said:


> Gripen Vs JF-17
> 
> JAS-39 Gripen / JF-17 Thunder / F-20 Tigershark
> 
> Length: 14.1m / 14.4m / 14.4m
> Height: 4.5m / 4.77m / 4.2m
> Wing span: 8.4m / 9.0m / 8.13m
> Empty weight: 6,800kg / 6,586kg / 5,090kg
> Internal fuel: 2,000kg / 2,186kg / ?
> Total load capacity: 5,300kg / 3,800kg / ?
> Max TOW: 14,000kg / 12,400kg / 11,920kg
> Max Speed: M2.0 / M1.6 / M2.0
> Service ceiling: 50,000ft (15,240m) / 55,000ft (16,764m) / 55,000 ft (16,764m)
> Engine: RM-12 / RD-93 / GE F404
> Maximum Engine thrust: 18,000lb (8,164kg) / 19,000lb (8,618kg) / 17,000lb (7,700kg)
> Thrust to weight ratio: 0.92 / 0.98 / 1.1
> G limit: +9.0, -3 / +8.5, -3 / ?
> Ferry range: 3,200km (2,000miles) / 3,480km (2,160miles) / 2,759km (1,715miles)
> Combat radius: 800km (500miles) / 1,352km (840miles) / 556km (345miles)
> Hardpoints: 8 / 7 / 7



however, the main difference is avionics. Gripen is way ahead in that aspect.


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## Mutakalim

abdulbarijan said:


> The advantage is noted/considered in the sense of what capability it brings to our airforce ... and to put it simply we would have the ability to do deadly deep strikes via our aircrafts and give our navy a very potent air arm ... that is more or less the crux of it all ..


Days of deep strikes are gone as far as PAF is concerned. It is highly unlikely that PAF consider this option. They have enough SAM coverage to deter PAF from deep strikes. Anyone willing to do that should be ready for losses which will cause huge dent in PAFs top tier squadrons.


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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> Russia has also agreed with Iran and India on the INSTC project, also Pakistan and India are full members of the Shanghai corporation which I hope being neighbours we can improve our ties as it will benefit both nations.


Sure all the peace loving peoples like you think like that & even I'm.Pakistan we always think it as a dream to come true but your dear moodi sarkar is in other.mind set ?
But let's not , go there if INDIA , PAKISTAN , IRAN , CHINA , & RUSSIA stand together at least in Asia we don't need UN to help or decide Palestine & Kashmir issues ?
& we can dictate our own mutual interests ?


----------



## Knight Rider

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> Days of deep strikes are gone as far as PAF is concerned. It is highly unlikely that PAF consider this option. They have enough SAM coverage to deter PAF from deep strikes. Anyone willing to do that should be ready for losses which will cause huge dent in PAFs top tier squadrons.



That's why Pakistan has Better Missile System to strike Deep into India. Don't worry Pakistan Airforce also have Electronic warfare system to render useless Indian SAM systems along with Radar systems.

PAF's Electronic Warfare Tactical Training Range Opertaional - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

So according to the article Minhas squadron JF-17 Thunders will also have Electronic attack capabilities.

Pakistan's PAF Re-equip Squadron No 2 Minhas With JF-17 - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

And the Beast in Carnage FC-31 will be inducted in PAF very soon. Its a Stealth Fighter.

PAF wants to buy Chinese stealth aircraft: minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## Khanivore

GURU DUTT said:


> *now about Su-35 well its onli pakistanies who are sying rudssia will sell su-35s to them ... *


Seriously, can you quote a Pakistani source? Otherwise stop wasting your time.



GURU DUTT said:


> *point is do you have money to buy them* and *what about setting up spare and training and maintenece infra from ground s up* do you know how much money that takes ...


Point is, when dumb questions like this are posted, do you honestly think people in this forum will take you seriously? *Do you think Pakistan would hold talks with Russia if they couldn't manage to fund and maintain a platform like Su-35?* Be realistic!



GURU DUTT said:


> so why should we be worried when owr MKI is already destinned to starts it own super sukhoi MLU which will give it a much needed AESA based Radar and EW suites and self protection jammers + new engines .... how will your PAF counter that even if you forget rafale or FGFA/PAKFA.... so nanhe miya masoom whats your point i ask again thank you


Ask your rattled up government and your fellow comrades what their opinion is before you self-assure yourself here. 



GURU DUTT said:


> *but as for pudding well we are already having a feast ...*


Yes, it's well known how India binges on military imports but forgets to tend to basic in-house sanitation, i.e. up until now HALF of India's population still has no access to a toilet. Enjoy your feast, fat girl.

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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> *The deal is still a big "IF" -- because the only confirmation we have had is the "talks are being held" -- whether this leads to a deal or not ... nobody knows as of now *... there is still a lot to consider ...
> 
> However lets suppose a deal was to be confirmed, as far as the "advantage" of SU-35 goes, usually the advantages are not noted in as ... Our aircraft X has this this and that advantage versus the adversary's aircraft Y ...
> 
> The advantage is noted/considered in the sense of what capability it brings to our airforce ... and to put it simply we would have the ability to do deadly deep strikes via our aircrafts and give our navy a very potent air arm ... that is more or less the crux of it all ..
> 
> Another factor would be ... what configuration of SU-35 we end up getting .. because there would be a high level of customization involved keeping in view that we would be operating Russian, American and Chinese jets all at the same time in an era where the concepts in use is network centric warfare ...
> 
> If the configuration we end up getting, has the luxury of integrating Chinese/Pakistani weapons ( + future weapons we acquire from other countries .. eg . A darter etc. ) and the luxury of customizing it where we can have the radar electronics of our choice from say China ... _*then the balance of power in the air, technologically atleast, would be the first time "balanced" since the "lost decade" ...*_


Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Gripen Vs JF-17
> 
> JAS-39 Gripen / JF-17 Thunder / F-20 Tigershark
> 
> Length: 14.1m / 14.4m / 14.4m
> Height: 4.5m / 4.77m / 4.2m
> Wing span: 8.4m / 9.0m / 8.13m
> Empty weight: 6,800kg / 6,586kg / 5,090kg
> Internal fuel: 2,000kg / 2,186kg / ?
> Total load capacity: 5,300kg / 3,800kg / ?
> Max TOW: 14,000kg / 12,400kg / 11,920kg
> Max Speed: M2.0 / M1.6 / M2.0
> Service ceiling: 50,000ft (15,240m) / 55,000ft (16,764m) / 55,000 ft (16,764m)
> Engine: RM-12 / RD-93 / GE F404
> Maximum Engine thrust: 18,000lb (8,164kg) / 19,000lb (8,618kg) / 17,000lb (7,700kg)
> Thrust to weight ratio: 0.92 / 0.98 / 1.1
> G limit: +9.0, -3 / +8.5, -3 / ?
> Ferry range: 3,200km (2,000miles) / 3,480km (2,160miles) / 2,759km (1,715miles)
> Combat radius: 800km (500miles) / 1,352km (840miles) / 556km (345miles)
> Hardpoints: 8 / 7 / 7



This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.



Super Falcon said:


> Dont worry SU 35 is baap of SU 30 in all aspects
> 
> And compare it with rafale u see the difference



What are the advantages pls?


----------



## batmannow

ice_man said:


> if SU35s are something we considering why not consider the GRIPPEN used versions. they are swedish easily integrated with EREIYE.
> 
> and one damn good fighter with quick turn around and easy to maintain compared to the dual engine Sukhois


Gripens are sanction pornes , any single word coming out.of any hot shot american official against the selling to Pakistan & seeds will close their eyes ?


----------



## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Gripens are sanction pornes , any single word coming out.of any hot shot american official against the selling to Pakistan & seeds will close their eyes ?


Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?



batmannow said:


> Gripens are sanction pornes , any single word coming out.of any hot shot american official against the selling to Pakistan & seeds will close their eyes ?


Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?


----------



## Dr Gupta

batmannow said:


> Sure all the peace loving peoples like you think like that & even I'm.Pakistan we always think it as a dream to come true but your dear moodi sarkar is in other.mind set ?
> But let's not , go there if INDIA , PAKISTAN , IRAN , CHINA , & RUSSIA stand together at least in Asia we don't need UN to help or decide Palestine & Kashmir issues ?
> & we can dictate our own mutual interests ?



Modi invited everyone in South Asia for his swearing in ceromony but everyone knows it is the Pak army that control's the foreign policy not NS. Doval needs to speak to the ISI and military as they hold the key.


----------



## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the advantages pls?


India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread


----------



## zebra7

batmannow said:


> India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
> Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
> For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
> Its been told million times ? Here on the thread



No I was asking for the advantage of SU35 over super Sukhoi 30mki. Just main points pls


----------



## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the advantages pls?


India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread


zebra7 said:


> Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?
> 
> 
> Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?


Yes I'm sure you can join Chinese defense fourm & can seek lot of info ?



zebra7 said:


> No I was asking for the advantage of SU35 over super Sukhoi 30mki. Just main points pls


U can Google it by yourself , I'm busy with other things ?


----------



## zebra7

batmannow said:


> India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
> Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
> For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
> Its been told million times ? Here on the thread
> 
> Yes I'm sure you can join Chinese defense fourm & can seek lot of info ?
> 
> 
> U can Google it by yourself , I'm busy with other things ?


Sir I insist pls give me some points of the advantages of Su 35 over Super Sukhoi specially in avionics, radars, and engine.

And pls tell me that Su 35 is sanction proof


----------



## GURU DUTT

Khanivore said:


> Seriously, can you quote a Pakistani source? Otherwise stop wasting your time.
> 
> 
> Point is, when dumb questions like this are posted, do you honestly think people in this forum will take you seriously? *Do you think Pakistan would hold talks with Russia if they couldn't manage to fund and maintain a platform like Su-35?* Be realistic!
> 
> 
> Ask your rattled up government and your fellow comrades what their opinion is before you self-assure yourself here.
> 
> 
> Yes, it's well known how India binges on military imports but forgets to tend to basic in-house sanitation, i.e. up until now HALF of India's population still has no access to a toilet. Enjoy your feast, fat girl.


1.well give me a russian source that says russia is selling pakistan su-35 

2. ok so you have money then whats stopping you from buying it ... lolzzz had you had money you would have bought su-35s two years back when this news was not even on media let alone public forums like PDF 

3. lolzzz you realli think owr goverment is rattelled ... man you are trying too hard ... calm down we already in deal with russia over ongoing MKIs which are considerred by none other than russians as the most leathel flankers owtside russia while technicalities are bieng worked owt to MLU all the 272+42 MKIs with AESA Radar and AESA based EW suites and internal selfprotection jammers and new engines and some new types of air to air and air to ground wepons ... lolzz we are already in billions of $$s worth deal to get next genration flanker (FGFA/PAKFA)+the russians are already in negociations with new amur class subs for IN + we are the onli other nation than russia who is using russian made nuclear subs and you think indians are rettelled as russia "might sell" a couple of squads of su-35 to pakistan ..... which no offical conformation from any russian source 

4.now as for sanitation owr goverment has already started swatch bharat and nirmal bharat abhiyaan go and google it and also you can check its progress on internet as all such developments are contantlli uploaded on indian goverment site ... hope thats not too hard for you to do 

in short:proof of pudding is in eating it when you make a deal with russians then talk about it as of now its just a rumour... good luck


----------



## majid mehmood

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Sir I insist pls give me some points of the advantages of Su 35 over Super Sukhoi specially in avionics, radars, and engine.
> 
> And pls tell me that Su 35 is sanction proof



indochina on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:05 am
*Differences:*
*Su-30MKI*-

See the image

Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


*Su-35S*-

See the image

Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

Armed-

*Su-35S*

1 × 30 mm GSh-30 cannon with 150 rounds
2 × wingtip pylons for air-to-air missile R-73 (AA-11 "Archer") or ECM equipment
12 × wing pylons and close to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of weapons, including:
Air-to-air missile
AA-12 Adder (R-77)
AA-11 Archer (R-73)
AA-10 Alamo (R-27)
And may be armed by china
PL-8/9/10/12
Air-to-ground missiles and sea
AS-17 Krypton (Kh-31)
AS-16 Kickback (Kh-15)
AS-10 Karen (Kh-25ML)
AS-14 Kedge (Kh-29)
AS-15 Kent (Kh-55)
AS-13 Kingbolt (Kh-59)
bomb
KAB-500L
KAB-1500 laser guided bombs / TV
FAB-100/250/500/750/1000

*Su-30MKI*

fireworks

1 serving GSh-301 30 mm, 150 rounds

Air-to-air missiles:

6 × R-27R/AA-10A/Astra [21], medium-range missiles, radar-guided semi-automatic, range 80 km.
6 × R-27T (AA-10B), medium-range missiles probe pink ngoao, 70 km
2 × R-27P (AA-10C), long-range missiles, radar detectors, passive
10 × R-77 (AA-12), medium-range missiles active radar detector, 100 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short-range AAM, 30 km

Air-to-surface missiles:

2 × Kh-59ME, radio guided missile, 115 km
2 × Kh-59MK, laser guided missile, 130 km
4 × Kh-35 anti-ship missiles, 130 km
3 × PJ-10 Bramhos, supersonic cruise missiles, 300 km
6 × Kh-31P / A, anti-radar missiles, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T / L laser-guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rockets (80 guided rockets not)
4 × S-13 rockets (20 guided rockets not)

Bom:

6 × KAB-500L laser-guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T
28 × OFAB-250-270
32 × OFAB-100-120
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs


Is that enough for you ?

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## Khanivore

zebra7 said:


> Thanks for your visionary explanation about that *but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India* and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.


*Are you feeling OK?* Do you think anyone on this forum or even on Indian forums can answer your question? And for your information, if anyone makes an aggressive move into Pak territory, even the Russians know Pak has the right to use Su-35s. Defensive posture will automatically become offensive maneuver and nobody can then take away that right, be it using Su-35s or F-16C/D Block 52s.

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## majid mehmood

GURU DUTT said:


> 1.well give me a russian source that says russia is selling pakistan su-35
> 
> 2. ok so you have money then whats stopping you from buying it ... lolzzz had you had money you would have bought su-35s two years back when this news was not even on media let alone public forums like PDF
> 
> 3. lolzzz you realli think owr goverment is rattelled ... man you are trying too hard ... calm down we already in deal with russia over ongoing MKIs which are considerred by none other than russians as the most leathel flankers owtside russia while technicalities are bieng worked owt to MLU all the 272+42 MKIs with AESA Radar and AESA based EW suites and internal selfprotection jammers and new engines and some new types of air to air and air to ground wepons ... lolzz we are already in billions of $$s worth deal to get next genration flanker (FGFA/PAKFA)+the russians are already in negociations with new amur class subs for IN + we are the onli other nation than russia who is using russian made nuclear subs and you think indians are rettelled as russia "might sell" a couple of squads of su-35 to pakistan ..... which no offical conformation from any russian source
> 
> 4.now as for sanitation owr goverment has already started swatch bharat and nirmal bharat abhiyaan go and google it and also you can check its progress on internet as all such developments are contantlli uploaded on indian goverment site ... hope thats not too hard for you to do
> 
> in short:proof of pudding is in eating it when you make a deal with russians then talk about it as of now its just a rumour... good luck


from where u got the news that india puchased 42 more mki
and news of aesa is very old and is still not equip

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## batmannow

Home
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Subscribe

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*The dragon gets a bear hug
Updated: March 8, 2013 10:19 IST | Vladimir Radyuhin*


 

 

 

 


*





Russia supplying China with weapon platforms more powerful than Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals reverses what was the rule in the past. | The Hindu
Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when relations of both with the U.S. have run into rough waters
Russia is resuming the supply of advanced weapon platforms to China in a move that may have implications for India.

At the end of last year, Russia concluded a framework agreement with China for the sale of four Amur-1650 diesel submarines. In January it signed another intergovernmental agreement for the supply of Russia’s latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

If the deals go through, it will be for the first time in a decade that Russia has delivered offensive weapons to China.

It will also mark the first time that Russia has supplied China with more powerful weapon platforms compared with Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals. In the past, the opposite was the rule.

For example, the Su-30MKK jet fighters Russia sold to China were no match for the Su-30MKIs supplied to India at about the same time. The Chinese planes had an inferior radar and without the thrust vectoring engines the Indian version had.

This time the situation looks reversed. The Amur-1650 submarine is far more silent and powerful than the Kilo-class submarines the Indian Navy has in its inventory. India’s Su-30MKI will be no match for China’s Su-35 which is powered by a higher thrust engine and boasts a more sophisticated radar, avionics and weapons, according to a leading Russian military expert, Konstantin Makienko.

China’s acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India’s plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.

“The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

“The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”

The Russian Air Force is just beginning to take delivery of the new aircraft and China may become the first country to import it. The relatively small number of Su-35s China plans to buy, 24, should not deceive anyone, Mr. Makienko said. China followed the same buying pattern for the Su-27, initially ordering 24 planes and ending up with more than 200 Su-27s and its licence-built version, the J-11.

The supply to China of more advanced weapon platforms than those available to India appears to contradict some basic geopolitical realities. India remains Russia’s most trusted partner whose defence requirements have never been refused. By contrast, Russia has always been apprehensive of the Chinese dragon and suspicious of its intentions towards resource-rich and population-poor Siberia.
*
*Calls for restraint*
*There is consensus in the Russian strategic community that Moscow should exercise maximum restraint in providing China with advanced military technologies. Experts were shocked to find out that Chinese engineers had mastered the production of clones of most weapon systems cash-strapped Russia supplied to China in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Russian arms sales to China plummeted in recent years as China switched to domestic production, while Moscow became more cautious in offering Beijing cutting-edge technologies. Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced original platforms.

Some experts even called for a complete halt to arms sales to China, arguing that demographic pressures and a growing need of resources may one day push China to turn Russian weapons against Russia.

“We should stop selling them the rope to hang us with,” warned Alexander Khramchikhin of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.

However, the risks of selling advanced weapons to China took a back seat in Moscow’s calculations after Vladimir Putin returned to the Kremlin for a third term a year ago. Last year, Russia’s state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, signed contracts with China worth $2.1-billion, the company’s head Anatoly Isaikin said recently. The renewal of sophisticated weapon supplies to China should be seen in the context of geopolitical games in the China-U.S.-Russia triangle.

“The balance of power between America and China will to a large extend depend on whether and on which side Russia will play,” said Fyodor Lukyanov, foreign policy analyst.

Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when their relations with the U.S. have run into rough waters. Moscow is deeply disappointed with Mr. Obama’s policy of “reset,” which is seen in Moscow as a U.S. instrument of winning unilateral concessions from Russia, while Beijing views Mr. Obama’s strategic redeployment in the Asia-Pacific region as aimed at containing China.
*
*Profit motives*
*Russian defence sales to China are also driven by profit motives as arms manufacturers seek to compensate for the recent loss of several lucrative contracts in India, where they face growing competition from the U.S., Europe and Israel. Also, Moscow seems to be less concerned today about the so-called “reverse engineering” of Russian weapons in China as the ability of the Chinese industry to copy critical technologies appears to have been overrated.

“China’s programme of developing the J-11B family of aircraft based on the Su-27 platform has run into problems,” said Vasily Kashin, expert on China. “China’s aircraft engines, which are essentially modified version of Russian engines, are way too inferior to the originals and China continues to depend on the supply of Russian engines.”

In the past three-four years, China has bought over 1,000 aircraft engines from Russia and is expected to place more orders in coming years.

“When and if China succeeds in copying Russia’s new weapon platforms the Russian industry will hopefully move ahead with new technologies,” Mr. Kashin said.

India can also easily offset the advantage that new Russian arms supplies may give China, experts said.

“To retain its edge in military aviation, India needs to speed up the development of a 5th-generation fighter plane with Russia and go for in-depth upgrade of its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters,” Mr. Makienko said.
*
*Trade differences*
*However, the resumption of massive Russian arms supplies to China could still be a cause for concern in India. Closer defence ties between Moscow and Beijing are an offshoot of strong dynamics of their overall relations. China is Russia’s top commercial partner, with bilateral trade expected to touch $90 billion this year and soar to $200 billion by 2020. Mr. Putin has described China’s rise as “a chance to catch the Chinese wind in the sails of our economy.”

This contrasts with sluggish trade between India and Russia, which stood at $11 billion last year; even the target of $20 billion the two governments set for 2015 falls short on ambition. India risks being eclipsed by China on the Russian radar screens. As Russia’s top business daily Kommersant noted recently, even today, Russian officials from top to bottom tend to look at India with “drowsy apathy,” while Mr. Putin’s visit to India last year was long on “meaningless protocol” and short on time and substance.*

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## GURU DUTT

majid mehmood said:


> from where u got the news that india puchased 42 more mki
> and news of aesa is very old and is still not equip


thats why i said to you go check the facts there are couple of threads on PDF about it 272 were normal MKIs these 42 are those who are specialli designed to carry airlaunched version of bhramos which now in 2.5tonnes and till the bhrmos mini comes (which bieng close to 1.5tonnes could be carried under ordinarry MKIs) please check it owt we already have more than 210 MKIs


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> thats why i said to you go check the facts there are couple of threads on PDF about it 272 were normal MKIs these 42 are those who are specialli designed to carry airlaunched version of bhramos which now in 2.5tonnes and till the bhrmos mini comes (which bieng close to 1.5tonnes could be carried under ordinarry MKIs) please check it owt we already have more than 210 MKIs


Which facts we are talking here ?
You not consider Russian DFM ,s words an official statement ?
That's Russia is selling the su-35 to Pakistan ?


----------



## zebra7

batmannow said:


> indochina on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:05 am
> *Differences:*
> 
> 
> 
> Is that enough for you ?





Khanivore said:


> *Are you feeling OK?* Do you think anyone on this forum or even on Indian forums can answer your question? And for your information, if anyone makes an aggressive move into Pak territory, even the Russians know Pak has the right to use Su-35s. Defensive posture will automatically become offensive maneuver and nobody can then take away that right, be it using Su-35s or F-16C/D Block 52s.



This is the problem sir google sir is also telling all this stuff in this complicated figures but I was asking for the facts.

1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program that will include the Aesa Radar upgrade for sure i.e either upgraded Bars or the IBRIS-E radar and in our Su-35 IBRIS-E is still not confirmed because some talk of chinese Aesa radar in this PDF forum was there.

2. What makes MKI is the avionics which is not only supplied by Russia but french, israel OEM and in Super Sukhoi also the Best available jammers, pods, and sensors will be there which is superior than the Russian then how can we surely claim the advantage of the Su 35 over MKI.

3. Engine Yes Sure but Indians can also go for engine upgrade.

4. Quantity wise they are far superior than our Su35.


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Which facts we are talking here ?
> You not consider Russian DFM ,s words an official statement ?
> That's Russia is selling the su-35 to Pakistan ?


some coustmer showing interest in my goods doesnt means im selling those goods to that coustmer until or unless the coustmer is paying me better over my existing coustmers and that too in hard cash .... i hope you got my point sirji ... ok fir milte hain its sutta time


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## mourning sage

[Bregs] said:


> Russian need hard cash after economic sanctions to keep running its defense industry. they wish to start selling weapons to Pakistan just like they doing with china and india. if pak has hard cash they will certainly sell it to them. India too seems to have traveled too far now by diversifying its weapons procurement from many sources now


On the contrary, Russia I believe is thinking to much into the future. Right now Pakistan doesn't have a lot of money but by giving Pakistan favourable payment terms, they are cementing their position in CPEC


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## GURU DUTT

AsianUnion said:


> *Russian economy is worse than Pakistan economy.We must flex our muscles to get a better deal from the Russians.*


 what was that ... any way mai sadke

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## AsianLion

*Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis?
*
_Regional realities are shifting fast, with some significant ramifications for India._
By Joy Mitra
August 18, 2015

In geopolitics, strategic realities can change with surprising speed, and even before countries realize it decisive shifts occur that shape the future for the years to come. That seems to be the case with traditional Cold War rivals Russia and Pakistan, which have of late seen a gradual warming of ties. Traditionally an ally of India and hitherto supportive of India’s stance on Kashmir, Russia has shown clear signs of cozying up to Pakistan.

Having earlier lifted its self-imposed arms embargo on Pakistan, in November 2014 Russia signed a landmark“military cooperation” agreement with Pakistan, which spoke about “exchanging information on politico-military issues, strengthening collaboration in the defense and counter-terrorism sectors, sharing similar views on developments in Afghanistan and doing business with each other.” There have been reports that Pakistan may purchase Mi-35 combat helicopters apart from directly importing the Klimov RD-93 engines from Russiarather than via China for its JF-17 multi-role fighters. This could also mean a significant role for Russian equipment and spares in future development of the fighter. In addition, Russian state-owned firm Rostekh Corporation is planning to build a 680 mile gas pipeline in Pakistan in 2017 at an estimated cost of $2.5 billion.

The mutual overtures between Russia and Pakistan are part of a greater shift in international relations. In Europe, Russia is embroiled in a showdown with the West over Ukraine, with Moscow’s military adventure in Crimea being followed by Western sanctions. In the Asia-Pacific, China’s encroachments in the South China Seahas inflamed tensions with other Asia-Pacific countries allied with the U.S. These developments have forced Russia and China to look for allies, which explains the bonhomie between the two powers of late. Some analysts question whether a partnership motivated by external factors could lead to an alliance of countries that formerly distrusted each other. But the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” fits perfectly well here; the single most important factor that overrides all others is their concurrent perception of the U.S. and its “policy of containment” towards them. China needs allies to change the world order and it begins with Asia.

The China-Pakistan link is well known and is the most formidable leg of the Russia-China-Pakistan triangle. China has been a traditional ally of Pakistan and has historically supported it against its arch rival India both in terms of military equipment and diplomacy. Chinese have been involved in building nuclear reactors for Pakistan; Pakistan is the largest importer of Chinese manufactured defense equipment, is involved in co-production and co-development of JF-17 fighter jets and now is slated to buy almost eight Chinese’s S20 or Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK). China has also significantly invested in Pakistan’s Gwadar Port and in the Karakoram corridor. The imperative here is not just for China but for Pakistan as well. The burgeoning relationship between the U.S. and India, with their extensive trade ties and cooperation on strategic issues of mutual concern in the sphere of defense technology and equipment, does unnerve Pakistan from time to time. Since Pakistan’s failed misadventure in the Kargil heights, it has lost the support of successive U.S. administrations on the Kashmir issue and its own relationship with the U.S. has been rocky.

It is from here that the congruence of interests between the three states of Pakistan, China and Russia stems. For China and Russia, the U.S. is an anathema, which must dethroned from its hegemonic position for their own security. Pakistan has enough of an incentive to be a willing partner in an Asian security architecture that is shaped by China. With India having diversified its military suppliers to include countries like the U.S. and Israel, Russia no longer sees any impediment to establishing a strategic relationship with Pakistan. In the future one could see signs of integration between the three states, as their abilities complement each other: Russia is an alternate source for Western military technology and energy supplier, China is economically more potent than the other two, with considerable foreign exchange reserves looking to invest and in need of energy supplies, Pakistan despite its structural problems is a growing economy with young population in need of both of both energy supplies and defense equipment. Already importing equipment from China, Pakistan will have access to Russian technology, which was in fact the source for many Chinese products as well. Sanctions-hit Russia will have a new market for its defense equipment, although this may well in the future see some competition between Russia and China. It is possible that Russia will continue to arm India along with China and now Pakistan. Both EU and US have followed the strategy of supplying defense equipment to both India and Pakistan. But Russia arming Pakistan is still significant because that implies that Russia will no longer give preferential treatment to its historical friend India.

It is true India is still economically too big to be overlooked and Russia has an interest in preserving its relationship with India. But India has estranged security ties with China and Pakistan, and with Russia drawing ever closer to China, its divergence of interest with India in the world order it perceives is growing more apparent. The Russia-Pakistan-China triumvirate is a reality in the offing and has a far greater convergence of security objectives in Asia than a similar Russia-China-India grouping (also subsumed within BRICS). It is important to note here that the Chinese economy is visibly slowing and this could lead to some internal turmoil, the Russian economy may very well see further contraction, while that of Pakistan, albeit showing signs of improvement, is external aid dependent and beset by internal security concerns. Aggression on the part of this triumvirate to deflect attention from internal problems cannot be ruled out. The strategic ramifications will be for India as much as they will be the U.S. and other countries in the region. As the contours of the alliances in Asia harden, India will have to shed its reluctance to take a firmer stand in Asia and work more closely with the U.S. and Japan.

_Joy Mitra is post-graduate scholar of international relations from Jindal School of International Affairs and a researcher with Wikistrat.

Russia, China and Pakistan: An Emerging New Axis? | The Diplomat_

Source: Russia - Pakistan: the Way is Open for New Projects


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## GURU DUTT

sovcomflot said:


> Pakistanis are celebrating as if they won a lottery.
> 
> The fault is with India, Diversifying too much is causing Russia to diversify to offering arms to two bit states like Pakistan.


russia is an arms manufacturrer and it will sell its goods to who ever that can pay its not owr fault no one is going to say no to a new coustmer just because we dont like that coustmer .... its strikly buisness nothing personal


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## Khanivore

You alledged...


GURU DUTT said:


> now about Su-35 well its onli pakistanies who are sying rudssia will sell su-35s to them ...


I asked a source of your allegation... Me:_ "Seriously, can you quote a Pakistani source? Otherwise stop wasting your time."_

Your reply at best was a counter question? ...


GURU DUTT said:


> _well give me a russian source that says russia is selling pakistan su-35_


Either you are utterly thick or you are trolling. You're not contributing anything worthwhile but instead posting a load of ego-fueled drivel. I would suggest you cut this nonsense before your ego trip deals you a wake up call.

@Icarus

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## Trisonics

s.k said:


> India is now watching eu and us so there will be no deal in future between india and russia except pak-fa, tho kuch na hone se kuch hona is better if yu are getting 5 rupee from india and and the earning is stoped now so they will go for 1 rupee, now yu got it ? School attend kartay tho aaj en bacho waley sawalo k jawab na dene partay mujhe.



You obviously have no idea on how much we buy from Russia. India has decided not to put all of its eggs in one basket for sure but that does not mean Russia will stop getting sales from India. Russia and India have taken the defence deals one step ahead and looking to be partners or let me just say India wants to be a learning partner, such deals cost even more since some amount of learning and ToT takes place. Stop fooling yourself by talking about 1 paise and 5 paise when you don't get it at all. Ok so what else can Pak buy say after the SU-35 that can effectively replace Indian sales for Russia?

Please don't bring in warm waters and the fabled silk route, while being strategic for Russia too its not strategic enough for Russia to lose India. 




alee92nawaz said:


> How can India stop Russians from earning big money from bharat mata ?
> Indians need
> *Engines
> Radars
> Etc spares from them for all of their planes for decades to come...India has no place to go for spares and has invested huge chunk of money on pak fa...
> So Russians aint losing no thing...*
> And in decades things can change even indo-russ relations
> 
> 
> Whats the range of sd 10A ?
> 
> It full
> 
> It fulfils our requirements big time....



Good analysis. If India does decide to sour its relationship with Russia it will be a velvet divorce meaning not one that will stop every deal between the two. Russia too knows it can still milk India for spares and it decides not to, it will further lose dollars which will be a double whammy! it's not as simple as Pakistanis see it here on this forum. 

Let's assume Indo-Russian relations spiral downhill. Unlike Pakistan, India has multiple resources to re-instate airplanes of similar caliber. We currently have over or close to 200 SU 30MKI that can easily be reduced to 75 effectively while the rest can be canablized for spares until replacements arrive. Not a very good scenario but enough still while combined with our navy and army to keep any adventurism from Pakistan away.

Lastly, If Russia does so, it will signal to the world what its intentions are and put India in a space where several countries from the west will easily help. Very unlikely for long term friends but India will lose little in terms of its military edge against its only enemy, Pak.

Military aside something that Pakistanis never get is trade and economics. China or Russia do not think like Pakistan. Trade is very essential for the two and India is a huge growing market that Pakistan can never ever replace. Killing relations with India hence is never an option for Russia or China.

If push comes to shove India will decide to buy twice the number of squadrons you wish to at inflated cost just to deny you any advantages, you still think Russia will be interested? Sure, relations between Pak-Russia will continue to rise but Russia trying to replace India with Pakistan is sadly only a Pakistani dream.


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## Foxtrot Delta

*as much as i would love to see su-35 in pakistan airforce, chances of us actully getting this plane are next to zero. its a beast and awesome but our circumstances and complex diplomatic problems seem to be against us. i would love to see it in PAF but till then lets resume our training and preparing to take down su-35s not fly them. lets focus on bring them down and countering their threat.*


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## Areesh

Whatever but I hope these talks fail. Don't want to see TTP blowing up million dollars SU 35 in air.

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## Foxtrot Delta

*as much as i would love to see su-35 in pakistan airforce, chances of us actully getting this plane are next to zero. its a beast and awesome but our circumstances and complex diplomatic problems seem to be against us. i would love to see it in PAF but till then lets resume our training and preparing to take down su-35s not fly them. lets focus on bring them down and countering their threat.*


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## nadeemkhan110

Areesh said:


> Whatever but I hope these talks fail. Don't want to see TTP blowing up million dollars SU 35 in air.


*Well it depends on a leader Take care of your BUTCHER OF GUJRAT* 
India is place where even A terrorist can be A LEADER Its a DEMOCRACY RIGHT
LEADER IS KNOWN AS A SHADOW OF A NATION

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## mzeeshanfahd

found them on a forum ..... I am already in love with the bird

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## Last Samuri

sorry PEOPLE a lot of people spouting out things they know nothing about.

RE SU35

Russia needs cash
Russia China Pak Nexus
Pakistan will Give Russia axcess to Markets in Middle East
Russia will give Pakistan favourable terms.

ETC ETC ETC.

Let me tell You that india has dealt with Russia for 70 YEARS and they do not provide credit or Spares on time

RUSSIA is now a decling power WHOSE GDP is now l;iterally HALF THE SIZE OF INDIA,S

Without indian money PAK FA will grind to a HALT

As for PAK getting SU35 99% certain it will come to nothing WHY ????

You guys don't have $2.5 billion spare
AND RUSSIA IS BROKEN ECONMONY AND ISOLATED AND SANCTIONED

IF you think I,m kidding JUST CHECK THE HYPER LINK

World GDP Ranking 2015 | Data and Charts - knoema.com


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## That Guy

TigerJay said:


> I would humbly disagree sir. There's a need to look at this situation in a different perspective.
> 1 Chinese are buying 24 of these planes. As you must know 24 is not the kind of number China would be interested in if they are not looking to reverse engineer it. Even to RE they need more than just 24.
> 2 India is purchasing Rafaels soon, and Pakistan is out of options to match it, except for one that is Su 35s.
> 3. The current Chinese investments in Pakistan require maritime patrolling and a need for deeper penetration as well as counter threats with the only available 4++ gen aircraft to PAF.
> 4. In this whole deal Pakistan might have been less interested if Chinese were not involved. It is China that needs Pakistan to upgrade it's security.
> 
> So Pakistan will not reject Su 35s deal just because IAF had been flying Russian platforms. Also as per current news PAF pilots were getting training in J11Ds, that is not purposeless.
> 
> I hope I have made my point clear while trying to keep it shortest possible.


You made your point very clear, but unfortunately, I believe it to be wrong.

First of all, the so called deal of 24 Su-35s for China have been going on for years, and the Chinese have already said they're no longer interested. There is no reason to suggest that they're looking to buy it, even for reverse engineering purposes (in particular, the engines).

Second, the Indian deal (even if it goes through) will take at least 2 years to fulfill one squadron worth of orders. India has to go through training, building of infrastructure, and so on, which will take them a long time. There have been calls within India to abandon the Rafale deal, and concentrate on the Su-30MKIs. By the time they get a squadron ready, PAF may have better options available.

Next, the Su-35 isn't the only available 4++ gen to Pakistan, hell, I don't think the Su-35 is actually even available. Like @Oscar said, India would sooner spend a billion, then let Pakistan spend a million buying the damn thing.

Pakistan is still not interested in the Su-35, and the former air chief has already said that PAF is more interested in 5th gen. Former air force pilots and current analyst, Kaiser Tufail has said that PAF may want to skip the 4++ and go straight to the 5th gen.

PAF will reject the deal, if a deal even exists (which I doubt). Whether for the reason I've given, or Oscar. It's as simple as that.


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## Super Falcon

B


ice_man said:


> if SU35s are something we considering why not consider the GRIPPEN used versions. they are swedish easily integrated with EREIYE.
> 
> and one damn good fighter with quick turn around and easy to maintain compared to the dual engine Sukhois


bhai agar mulk ki hifazat ki bat ho tu cheap idea nahe diya karo maintana


Which colour scheme is good for SU 45


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## Last Samuri

Indian gdp is twice YES twice the SIZE OF RUSSIA...

PAK wants SU35 or Rafale or Typhoon or F35 you can get them

BUT NOT WITHOUT CASH ???

For this reason your SU35 dreams will be shattered and thread closed to save embaressment for most of you


----------



## nadeemkhan110

*China’s Master Plan to Destroy the F-22 and F-35 in Battle*
*With huge numbers of J-11 jets and role SU-35* 
The J-11D, which is currently in development, is arguably the most advanced land-based single-seat Chinese version of the Flanker. While it probably is not quite as potent as the Russian Su-35S, it is very comparable in a lot of respects. While almost all information concerning Chinese hardware is suspect, the new J-11D allegedly made its first flight sometime in April.
The new variant is purportedly equipped with a new electronically scanned radar — possibly an active electronically scanned array (AESA). But China wouldn’t need the Su-35 if it had developed a working, producible AESA. That could be why China and Russia have been taking so long to work out a deal to buy the Su-35 — the People’s Republic has reached a point where it doesn’t need the Russians as much as they used to.
The J-11D is also purported to use radar absorbent materials to help reduce the jet’s signature, possibly a new infrared search-and-track system (IRST) and revamped electronic warfare systems. It also allegedly features an improved version of China’s WS-10 jet engine — but the Chinese have had a lot of difficulties with producing a reliable motor for their aircraft. One reason China is interested in the Su-35 is because of that plane’s engines.
*sources:* China’s Master Plan to Destroy the F-22 and F-35 in Battle | War Is Boring


----------



## That Guy

batmannow said:


> That's who you are ?so stupid !lolzz
> 
> 
> Last time I checked the most poorest countries RUSSIA was still way below then INDIA ?LOLZZ
> 
> 
> We are discussing su 35 in Pakistani skies , not mangos or
> 
> No you can ask , cause you know we don't ?lolzz


Enjoy.


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## P.K.

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Well it depends on a leader Take care of your BUTCHER OF GUJRAT*
> India is place where even A terrorist can be A LEADER Its a DEMOCRACY RIGHT
> LEADER IS KNOWN AS A SHADOW OF A NATION


Bhai Sahib, Would you be kind enough to enlighten the dull Indians that* Who Exactly is Your Leader ? *


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## Muhammad Omar

Last Samuri said:


> Indian gdp is twice YES twice the SIZE OF RUSSIA...
> 
> PAK wants SU35 or Rafale or Typhoon or F35 you can get them
> 
> BUT NOT WITHOUT CASH ???
> 
> For this reason your SU35 dreams will be shattered and thread closed to save embaressment for most of you



Oh Come on take your Butt hurt some where else


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## Last Samuri

Muhammed



> Oh Come on take your Butt hurt some where else



BUTT HURT STARTS when you actually buy some thing 

When you get 272 su35 THEN the butt really hurts


----------



## Donatello

The real question is, why are Indian dhotis and vegetables on fire?

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## nadeemkhan110

P.K. said:


> Bhai Sahib, Would you be kind enough to enlighten the dull Indians that* Who Exactly is Your Leader ? *


 Our leaders are not terrorists and world knows your leader






BUTCHER OF GUJRAT

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## monitor

*pectre of Russia-China-Pakistan axis haunts Indian minds*
17 September 2015 Vinay Shukla
As Indian foreign policy analysts worry about a possible 'axis' between China, Pakistan and Russia against India, the author explains how some misunderstandings stem from translations with multiple meanings.

626
5

Print page
*Related*

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India, Pakistan accession to SCO may change balance of power on world arena — Uzbek leader
*Tags*
china, pakistan, russia




Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov’s recent statement has caused alarm in India, forcing the Russian Embassy in New Delhi to issue a clear-cut statement reiterating that Moscow will never take any step ‘detrimental’ to the security and safety of its privileged strategic partner India. Source: TASS
A spectre is haunting Indian minds — the spectre of a Russia-China-Pakistan ‘Axis’ directed against India’s security and vital interests. At least judging by local media comments and academic discourse one gets this impression. 

Of course, who doesn’t know about the ‘all-weather’ China-Pakistan relationship, but on this backdrop India’s old and time-tested friend Russia warming up to Pakistan has stolen the good night’s sleep of many strategists and analysts and caused a storm in the web based social media.

The Russia-China-Pakistan axis bogey is generally raised in the Indian media by a powerful pro-American lobby, which is prodding the (Narendra) Modi government to jump on the US bandwagon in containing China and stop buying arms from Russia. But do they understand the costs of such policy for the common Indian?

We get media reports daily about ‘cash-strapped’ Russia selling this or that lethal weapon to Pakistan, but so far only the report of selling 4-5 Mi-35M assault helicopters for anti-terror operations has been officially confirmed.

During their recent Russia visits Pakistan Defence Minister Khawaja Asif and Army Chief General Raheel Sharif evinced their interest in acquiring cutting-edge Russian weapons. There have been reports of Pakistan taking interest in buying Sukhoi Su-35 multirole state-of-the-art fighters, which has raised the BP of many strategic pundits in New Delhi.

In this context I recall former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov’s book “Years in Big Politics” (original Russian title: Gody v Bolshoi Politike) published in 1999. Since the Soviet collapse Academician Primakov was chief of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) till his appointment as Foreign Minister in January 1996 by President Boris Yeltsin.

He writes that in early 1990s Pakistan had requested for Sukhoi Su-27 fighters from Russia, which were the best warplane at that time. According to Primakov, the Russian Foreign Ministry (then headed by Andrei Kozyrev) had cleared the deal. However, the Kremlin referred it to SVR.

“We asked the Pakistani side, do they have funds to buy the planes? They replied, yes, they have agreement with Saudi Arabia. We cross-checked through our channels and found it was not true. SVR established that it was a grand foreign plot to scuttle Russia’s military-technical cooperation with India,” former Russian Prime Minister Primakov wrote in his book.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov’s recent statement on the sidelines of Arms Expo in Nizhny Tagil has caused alarm in India, forcing the Russian Embassy in New Delhi to issue a clear-cut statement reiterating that Moscow will never take any step ‘detrimental’ to the security and safety of its privileged strategic partner India. It described the furore in Indian media over the agency report as ‘over reaction’.

So, what is the reality? My over three decades of experience of covering Russia has taught me never to depend on translation of the original Russian text, as the Russian language is so rich that one and the same word may have many meanings, depending on the context. So, I naturally went to the original agency copy in English, which caused euphoria in the Pakistani web community and despair in India.

Mr. Ryabkov called Pakistan as Russia’s ‘nearest neighbour’ (geographically) and a partner looking for developing relations in not only in defence, but also in many spheres including energy. But the English translation of the same news story described Pakistan as Russia’s ‘closest partner’ in South Asia, which de facto questions the privileged strategic partnership with India.

However, factually it is just not true, but explains the ‘over reaction’ of the Indian media. Perhaps, that’s why the Russian Embassy in New Delhi was forced to issue an unprecedented denial, reiterating Moscow’s commitment to the Strategic Partnership Declaration of 2000, where both Russia and India have taken obligations not to indulge into activities ‘detrimental’ to the security of other party.

The Russia-Pakistan bogey was first raised after Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu’s November 2014 Islamabad visit, when the two countries signed a defence cooperation agreement. To be frank, such agreements are a common thing in the diplomatic practice of the nations formally not at war. So what? India also holds joint war games with the Chinese military. Not only this, for over a decade we have interacted with China at the highest level in the Russia-India-China triangle, is it an anti-Pakistan triangle?

Moreover both New Delhi and Islamabad are in the process of joining the Russia-China-led Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, with the prime goal of combating terrorism, extremism and separatism – the problems of main concern for India. Pakistan will now have to prove its commitment to the common goal to other fellow members of this regional organisation.

In view of the imminent US withdrawal from Afghanistan, Russia sees Pakistan as a key player in its neighbourhood, which can play either a stabilising or destabilising role, in both cases a mechanism of interaction is a must. According to a former top general of Soviet General Staff, during their Afghan campaign the Soviets maintained constant contact with the Pakistani ISI.

During their Afghan consultations, India and Russia have repeatedly agreed that Pakistan has a role in post-war dispensation in Afghanistan. Russian fears about extremist spill-over into the secular post-Soviet regimes of Central Asia, home to millions of ethnic Russians.

If that is so, why should Moscow not adopt a pro-active stance in involving Islamabad in its own calculus? Even China is wary of ISIL spilling over to its Muslim-dominated Eastern Turkistan and is also adopting the complex economic strategy to engage Pakistan.

What concerns Russia’s alliance with China, the developments here are logical continuation of their interaction over past decades and not the result of US-led Western sanctions over Ukraine. Gas and pipelines going to China are not new projects. What concerns Central Asia, objectively Russia and China are both rivals and partners and by joining SCO India also can play its positive role in the development of the region by partnering with Moscow, which unlike Chinese ‘One Road One Belt’ (OROB) project, wants to revive not only Silk Road, but all the ancient trade routes crisscrossing huge Eurasian land mass of former Soviet Union in all directions.

As a responsible regional power with the ambitions of becoming global power, India should use the opportunities opening with Russia’s economic activities in our neighbourhood. 


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*Business Calendar*
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## P.K.

P.K. said:


> Bhai Sahib, Would you be kind enough to enlighten the dull Indians that* Who Exactly is Your Leader ? *





nadeemkhan110 said:


> Our leaders are not terrorists and world knows your leader
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BUTCHER OF GUJRAT



Bhai Sahib, We know our Leader, It is Indian Public who has elected 'Terrorist' Modi as our PM 

*NOW*, Would you be kind enough to enlighten the dull Indians that* Who Exactly is Your Leader ? *
*
*


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## Muhammad Omar

Last Samuri said:


> Muhammed
> 
> 
> 
> BUTT HURT STARTS when you actually buy some thing
> 
> When you get 272 su35 THEN the butt really hurts



Hahahahahahahaha EPic man seriously Epic.... You know If the deal got signed it will be of 2-3 squads like 36-50 jets that will be enough we not gonna buy 200+ hahahah


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## nadeemkhan110

P.K. said:


> Bhai Sahib, We know our Leader, It is Indian Public who has elected 'Terrorist' Modi as our PM


)
This is it you public (INDIANS) elected a terrorist (ITS MEANS THAT INDIANS ARE TERRORSTS)



P.K. said:


> *NOW*, Would you be kind enough to enlighten the dull Indians that* Who Exactly is Your Leader ? *


OUR LEADER MIAN MOHAMMAD NAWAZ SHARIF (Gentleman)

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## P.K.

nadeemkhan110 said:


> OUR LEADER MIAN MOHAMMAD NAWAZ SHARIF (Gentleman)


Let's hope the other Sharif and rest of Pakistanis share your feelings 

Raheel Sharif: Leader and savior?

More than 90 percent of Pakistanis call this though guy your savior and Leader

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## aliyusuf

Well atleast we have him to save us from Nawaz Sharrif. Who is there to save you from Modi?


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## nadeemkhan110

P.K. said:


> Let's hope the other Sharif and rest of Pakistanis share your feelings
> 
> Raheel Sharif: Leader and savior?
> 
> More than 90 percent of Pakistanis call this though guy your savior and Leader


looks He is another sharif
He is our pride tell me something why are you jealous with him?
We LOVE HIM and our ARMY


----------



## P.K.

nadeemkhan110 said:


> looks He is another sharif
> He is our pride* tell me something why are you jealous with him?*
> We LOVE HIM and our ARMY


Jealous of Raheel, Hell NO NEVER 
He is truly a Patriot who is striving hard to save your country. May Allah bless him with Dictatorship of Pakistan 

We need a strong opponent to fight 'Terrorist' Modi 

Don't you remember how much all of us loved Shoaib, Waqar or Wasim bowling to Sachin 

Who so ever wins is not important but there should be a fight between the strong willed personalities.

I hope even you don't want a repeat of UFA Goof-Up

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## s.k

Trisonics said:


> You obviously have no idea on how much we buy from Russia. India has decided not to put all of its eggs in one basket for sure but that does not mean Russia will stop getting sales from India. Russia and India have taken the defence deals one step ahead and looking to be partners or let me just say India wants to be a learning partner, such deals cost even more since some amount of learning and ToT takes place. Stop fooling yourself by talking about 1 paise and 5 paise when you don't get it at all. Ok so what else can Pak buy say after the SU-35 that can effectively replace Indian sales for Russia?
> 
> Please don't bring in warm waters and the fabled silk route, while being strategic for Russia too its not strategic enough for Russia to lose India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good analysis. If India does decide to sour its relationship with Russia it will be a velvet divorce meaning not one that will stop every deal between the two. Russia too knows it can still milk India for spares and it decides not to, it will further lose dollars which will be a double whammy! it's not as simple as Pakistanis see it here on this forum.
> 
> Let's assume Indo-Russian relations spiral downhill. Unlike Pakistan, India has multiple resources to re-instate airplanes of similar caliber. We currently have over or close to 200 SU 30MKI that can easily be reduced to 75 effectively while the rest can be canablized for spares until replacements arrive. Not a very good scenario but enough still while combined with our navy and army to keep any adventurism from Pakistan away.
> 
> Lastly, If Russia does so, it will signal to the world what its intentions are and put India in a space where several countries from the west will easily help. Very unlikely for long term friends but India will lose little in terms of its military edge against its only enemy, Pak.
> 
> Military aside something that Pakistanis never get is trade and economics. China or Russia do not think like Pakistan. Trade is very essential for the two and India is a huge growing market that Pakistan can never ever replace. Killing relations with India hence is never an option for Russia or China.
> 
> If push comes to shove India will decide to buy twice the number of squadrons you wish to at inflated cost just to deny you any advantages, you still think Russia will be interested? Sure, relations between Pak-Russia will continue to rise but Russia trying to replace India with Pakistan is sadly only a Pakistani dream.


So yu wana say that k russia is now a dirty wife which is sleeping with pakistan but india can not divorce her, majboor kon ? India so rowtay raho hamara kam tho mazay lena hay lol

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## New Resolve

I still think that if anything we will get the J11D as long as the WS10 power plant is reliable, but the speed at which things are moving in the region who knows. Love to see the indians so paranoid about Pak Russia relationship, so amusing.


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## Khanivore

Last Samuri said:


> Muhammed
> BUTT HURT STARTS when you actually buy some thing
> 
> When you get 272 su35 THEN the butt really hurts


Mindless. Pointless. Drivel. In short, you and a horde of your fellow countrymen on here can do nothing that could change the hard fact. Russia signed a pact with Pakistan in November 2014 when Russian _Defence Minister_ General Sergei Shoigu and his team of 41-member high level delegation visited, _details_ - guess as you like - of which have not been revealed. This was the single most important agreement between the two countries. You will witness soon the changing tide in relations between Pak-Russia just as Pakistan and Russia are witnessing the relations between India-US.

Time to swallow your pride and accept it. Russia is serious. I'll end with this quote: *“The world community not only praises but wants to do business with Pakistan now,”* -- _Russian Defence Minister General Sergei Shoigu_

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## PWFI

P.K. said:


> Let's hope the other Sharif and rest of Pakistanis share your feelings
> 
> Raheel Sharif: Leader and savior?
> 
> More than 90 percent of Pakistanis call this though guy your savior and Leader


We love him more than anything else in Pakistan

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## Last Samuri

Khanuvore 

You need money to do busines


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Last Samuri said:


> Khanuvore
> 
> You need money to do busines



We can find enough if we want to buy something... Unlike india we aren't in boasting for decades and ending up with s...!

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## New World

PWFI said:


> We love him more than anything else in Pakistan


Let me correct you..

We love him more after Mother(Pakistan)..

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## Khanivore

Last Samuri said:


> Khanuvore
> 
> You need money to do busines


You Indians always rabbit the same nonsense: *"* *How will you pay!?* *"*

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## Humble Analyst

Dr Gupta said:


> Let's put it this way if and when Russia sells the fighter to Pakistan it will from my view change the dynamics of Indo-Russian defence relationship. These are not a few attack helicopters we talking about but one of the world's most sophisticated jets which potentially has regional consequences.


Ok we will see


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> This is the problem sir google sir is also telling all this stuff in this complicated figures but I was asking for the facts.
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program that will include the Aesa Radar upgrade for sure i.e either upgraded Bars or the IBRIS-E radar and in our Su-35 IBRIS-E is still not confirmed because some talk of chinese Aesa radar in this PDF forum was there.
> 
> 2. What makes MKI is the avionics which is not only supplied by Russia but french, israel OEM and in Super Sukhoi also the Best available jammers, pods, and sensors will be there which is superior than the Russian then how can we surely claim the advantage of the Su 35 over MKI.
> 
> 3. Engine Yes Sure but Indians can also go for engine upgrade.
> 
> 4. Quantity wise they are far superior than our Su35.



Here is a hypothetical view of 2017 a dog fight between $u 35 against raptor & F-35 EVEN ALL OF SO CALLED STATE OF ART TECHS IN THEM ,still at some point $u 35 is clear & present danger to its enemies ?
Try to look the video then , imagine it what PAF can get with SU-35s in its inventory.






I don't care what India is going for since past 14 years on papers , its still incomplete & not practical ?
What we have is a potentialy best of the top fighter jets in the world , & when its manufacturing company is telling me that its way more fast ,accurate , then what my enemy.has ?
I'm going to go get it ?
Quantity is not an issue ,we never thought to match it with anyone ?
If we can just take out any intruding air force from sea front thats it ?
Now with all that said , there is nothing to satisfy a Coward & dejected mind ,which is affected & impressed by the enemy prapoganda ?



GURU DUTT said:


> some coustmer showing interest in my goods doesnt means im selling those goods to that coustmer until or unless the coustmer is paying me better over my existing coustmers and that too in hard cash .... i hope you got my point sirji ... ok fir milte hain its sutta time



Here we go agian self denials has made India live in a days where its own allay is presenting us the best of its front line , fighter jets ?
I think its just a matter of time when , deal will be opened & your over projected belives will be smashed ?
& SU - 35 is never in the que for sell to India by Russia ?
Btw , if a seller can sell 2 different types of goods to jealous customer , who can be jealous from his competitors buying from its seller then wise seller will sell the goods to the competiting seller cause jealousy will break the one who is jealous & will bring him paying more & more ?
In india s case , Russia will sell su -35 to Pakistan to bring a completion & let India pay more for a different rather expensive product ?
For Russia its win win situation , cause it will create a market of its products ?
I think its look like a Chinese buasines strategy to sink India further eceonomicly & financially & militarily pls watch out ?
Also please stop living fools heavens that India has more cash then any one else in the world no , it doesnt have ?
China is the new financial super power , just bow to them ?lolzz



Last Samuri said:


> Khanuvore
> 
> You need money to do busines


Money is not the only thing to do good bussines you reputation. & your partnerships brings you the credit in any of the markets ?
So stop sneezing , we are getting su 35 ,be jealous ,don't sleep ,but it won't stop us ?lolzz


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## batmannow

Dr Gupta said:


> Modi invited everyone in South Asia for his swearing in ceromony but everyone knows it is the Pak army that control's the foreign policy not NS. Doval needs to speak to the ISI and military as they hold the key.


Dival or who ever needs to change their stupid anti Pakistan plans that will work better then that stupid theory , that our army control our politicians not thats wrong idea ?


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## RoadRunner401

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told _IHS Jane's_ in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

*Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest*

*



*

September 18 2015

*Pakistan is negotiating a deal to purchase Sukhoi-35 'Flanker E' fighter jets from Russia, which is expected to be the largest defense deal between the two countries, according to IHS Jane’s.*

A senior Pakistani government official confirmed the discussions between Pakistan and Russia regarding the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. However, the official emphasized that it is “too early” to tell whether both countries will reach an agreement.

*Previous reports indicated that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets.*

According to the Pakistani official, they are interested in the Su-35 fighter jets because the country’s Air Force needs a twin-engine fighter with the capacity to fly longer range than the JF-17 and to penetrate deeply into the enemy’s territory.

Pakistan’s Air Force has a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) F16 Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder. China and Pakistan partnered in producing the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.

*Pakistan strengthening relations with Russia*
Pakistan has been strengthening its relationship with Russia while facing increasing tensions with the United States regarding its efforts to fight the Islamic militants in the region. The U.S. considers Pakistan as an unreliable partner in fighting terrorist groups.

Pakistan recently agreed to purchase Mi-35 “Hinde E” attack helicopters from Russia. The Pakistani government did not reveal the details of the deal including the value and schedule for the delivery of the Mi-35 helicopters.

Last year, Russia and Pakistan signed a bilateral defense cooperation agreement to boost its military-to-military relations. Both countries are expected to sign a technical cooperation agreement for the sale of Russian military equipment to Islamabad. 

Both countries are also expected to sign the North-South gas pipeline agreement by the end of September, according to Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak. 

*India would be extremely upset with Pakistan-Russia deal*
Defense industry analysts suggested that Russia is willing to sell advance hardware to Pakistan despite its longstanding relationship with India. The Russian government also signed a defense cooperation agreement with the Pakistani government in November last year.

Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad commented, “The Indians would be extremely upset to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”

India previously stated that Russia is crossing the “red line” for selling military hardware to Pakistan. 

On the other hand, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emphasized that the country’s relationship with India will no be affected by its expanding military cooperation with Pakistan.

Ryabkov explained that Russia and Pakistan are close partners, and India will not be jealous on the contract under negotiations involving the Su-35 fighter jets and Mi-35 helicopters. 

Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest

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## ito

Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.


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## kaonalpha

ito said:


> Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.


When we are trying to get 2 squadrons of an aircraft you posses in hundereds. This will accelerate your rafael procurment along with its logistic support .!!!

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## New Resolve

Sounds like a massive geo political event is about to take place i.e a fracture between Russia and India, awesome.

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## Foxtrot Delta

New Resolve said:


> Sounds like a massive geo political event is about to take place i.e a fracture between Russia and India, awesome.


highly unlikely.. India was a client state and customer of weapons in soviet era. now its only a customer. no fracture.

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## Knight Rider

This is all part of the New Great Game being played in Asia.







The New Great Game. Blood and Oil in Central Asia - by Lutz C. Kleveman

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## batmannow

New Resolve said:


> Sounds like a massive geo political event is about to take place i.e a fracture between Russia and India, awesome.


You live in a very dark world of moodi sarkar ?lolzz


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## batmannow

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> Enjoy.


With you , I always enjoy !so stupid !lolzz

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360



New Resolve said:


> I still think that if anything we will get the J11D as long as the WS10 power plant is reliable, but the speed at which things are moving in the region who knows. Love to see the indians so paranoid about Pak Russia relationship, so amusing.


Stop thinking cause ,J11s at any level can't be sold to a third country not because of its engines but because its the product of Russia ?



Last Samuri said:


> Khanuvore
> 
> You need money to do busines


Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360


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## Quwa

Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?

Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia

By Bilal Khan

19 September 2015

It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.

For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.

This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.

*How will Russia get this deal past India?*

The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against whatever Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.

*Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?*

Another, increasingly oft-cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “_coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” _According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as a liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.

Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition of the U.S, which could benefit Russia and China in Central Asia. However, Russia and China are not expansionary powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from the U.S. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s apparent efforts.

In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash and a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).

*Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?*

This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities within its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.

Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):

_The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively._​
It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?

In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:

_The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned._

_… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” _DefenseNews​
In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:

_The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. _IHS Jane’s 360​
Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?

It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.

In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.

In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.

*Managing Expectations*

Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors, such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath), would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.

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## GreenFalcon

If Pakistan does decide to add some Su-35s to its fleet, it will change the whole dynamics of the PAF for the better. With a growing economy and with a bright future ahead, a long-range advanced fighter like the Sukhoi 35 is the perfect option for Pakistan. I just hope that the deal goes through and we acquire a few of these beasts.

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## batmannow

GreenFalcon said:


> If Pakistan does decide to add some Su-35s to its fleet, it will change the whole dynamics of the PAF for the better. With a growing economy and with a bright future ahead, a long-range advanced fighter like the Sukhoi 35 is the perfect option for Pakistan. I just hope that the deal goes through and we acquire a few of these beasts.


Media knows nothing what they are projecting in these sort of articles ?
What your point , after Pakistani official ,s confirmation about SU35 ?


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## Viper0011.

ito said:


> Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.



OMG, these 40-60 jets will out perform the 600 or so jets the IAF + IN have. SUCH a big threat. India needs more, please give some American jobs related cash back to the West (the French in this case) and buy 200 Rafales. This is an insanely big threat. All conventional might of India has been neutralized by these planes!!!!

I've also heard that each of these SU-35 jets, comes with a squadron of Flying Saucers, which carry lasers and other kinetic weapons and are totally stealth. These 20 Space Crafts are remotely controlled from the SU-35 through a data link and can fly at the speed of light and can destroy any jet in the Indian airspace. It is said that these 40-60 SU-35's will dominate Pakistani, Indian and Tibet's skies all the way if not countered by India ASAP!!! 200 Rafales please

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## Knight Rider

Viper0011. said:


> OMG, these 40-60 jets will out perform the 600 or so jets the IAF + IN has. SUCH a big threat. India needs more, please give some American jobs related cash back to the West (the French in this case) and buy 200 Rafales. This is an insanely big threat. All conventional might of India has been neutralized by these planes!!!!
> 
> I've also heard that each of these SU-35 jets, comes with a squadron of Flying Saucers, which carry lasers and other kinetic weapons and are totally stealth. These 20 Space Crafts are remotely controlled from the SU-35 through a data link and can fly at the speed of light and can destroy any jet in the Indian airspace. It is said that these 40-60 SU-35's will dominate Pakistani, Indian and Tibet's skies all the way if not countered by India ASAP!!! 200 Rafales please


Apart From Indian SU-30MKI we have out class majority of Indian Air Fleet with these SU-35s including MIG-29s,SU-27s,Mig-21s etc etc


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## Yazp

And I posted something related about this Su-35 deal, and my post was deleted because of "spreading rumors".

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## Knight Rider

Viper0011. said:


> I've also heard that each of these SU-35 jets, comes with a squadron of Flying Saucers, which carry lasers and other kinetic weapons and are totally stealth.



Stop playing Mass effect the real world is not like that.


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## Foxtrot Delta

*In my opnion Pakistan is purchasing SU-35 in small numbers ( two squadrons) most likely, to keep indian navy away from sea boundry in the Arabian sea, as we know recently the sea boundry has increased consideribly, flankers if procured would be for denying the sea to aircrafts and surface vessles alike. best feature about su-35 is the trust vectoring tech, and avionics which could boost up offensive capabilities, btw air craft cariers can be taken care of with mach 4+ missiles which Pakistan already poses thanks to 兄弟中国。 i still have doubts about this deal as it is equivalanet to Pakistan army getting ARMATA Tank from Russia. its that equal. lets see what happens, russia is in trouble these days and india refuses or is unable to help, russians know their game very well. Ruski people their game is warfare. lets see what happens in future. *

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## mingle

My two cents these su35 will replace mirages of 7 &8 sqd at least for maritime role

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## Foxtrot Delta

If procured SU-35/37 can take care of Indian Air force and Navy's elite squadrons which wont be much as Most of us know Pakistan Air force can out perform any enemy and especially indian aor force when the ratio is even 1：3. 1 being PAF and 3 being IAF, with a plane like SU-35/37 PAF could do alot better hopefully. apart from IAF elite squadrons PAF's pride F-16s and JF-17 thunders along with secret assets can deal with rest of 500 aircraft. atleast thats the populus majority opnion among the western and arab air forces.


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## New Resolve

Foxtrot Delta said:


> highly unlikely.. India was a client state and customer of weapons in soviet era. now its only a customer. no fracture.



Your either an Indian or u dont understand the indian psyche. they are loosers with typical dehati aurat mentality. The world might work along the lines of customer/suppliers etc but the Indians psyche is very primitive (dehati aurat) and if Russians sell to Dehati Aurats enemies then the Russians will be considered Indias enemies, thats the level the indians operate at, its good for us either way.

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## Knight Rider

Heavy Fighters like Su-35s are ideal for PAF to guard Naval Fleet and the Arabian Sea.

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## Foxtrot Delta

New Resolve said:


> Your either an Indian or u dont understand the indian psyche. they are loosers with typical dehati aurat mentality.


i am a pakistani from Azad Kashmir. and i setteled in China (中国) since 2008. after marying a chinese girl here, and i may not be able to understand indian psyche because i damn care about it, i know the facts and consentrate on reality. we cant match indian purchasing power, india ditched left russia on its own russia didnt leave india, russians shall remain a weapons market for india and india has to keep buying from russia they are locked and dependant on each other for quiet sometime now, russia will keep selling to pakistan and india both their business is warfare just like germany france and usa. they need money and exports and yes Pakistan can be a powerful ally even more than india when it comes to Middle east and Central Asia. now the focus is on middle east right now hence the importance of pakistan, later hopefully shall be central asia hence again importance of Pakistan. india has money and can be a good customer but india cant provide security to central asia or russia thats where Pakistan comes in. Security is more important than Business that Simple.



Knight Rider said:


> Apart From Indian SU-30MKI we have out class majority of Indian Air Fleet with these SU-35s including MIG-29s,SU-27s,Mig-21s etc etc


out class my ***! they are flying coffins. do you live under a rock? look your record of crashes and attrition damages, no spare parts inferior quality grounded half the time jeez wake up. out class lol. only su-30mki are an equal adversary to f-16s, some people get surprised alot in war time.

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## !eon

New Resolve said:


> Sounds like a massive geo political event is about to take place i.e a fracture between Russia and India, awesome.


No, look at west. They provide weapons to rival countries all over the world.
Same is example of Russia. Isn't China and India have uneasy ties, and Russia is major exporter to both ? Now Pakistan is also in that loop. This is business from old times, only bhartis are creating panic because they are in panic.


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## Foxtrot Delta

Knight Rider said:


> Heavy Fighters like Su-35s are ideal for PAF to guard Naval Fleet and the Arabian Sea.


*Air superiority aircraft is the terminology you are looking for.*

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## Viper0011.

Foxtrot Delta said:


> * out class my ***! they are flying coffins. do you live under a rock? look your record of crashes and attrition damages, no spare parts inferior quality grounded half the time jeez wake up. out class lol. no wonder your countrymen always get caught offguard. only su-30mki are an equal adversary to f-16s, people like you get surprised alot in war time. *



I wouldn't use the term "outclassed", but with JFT block II, BVRs and advance weapons (jets in numbers), plus the US provided additional F-16's (some new and used in numbers), give the PAF good teeth to keep the Indians at bay. Unless they are ready to lose half the SU-30 force and take out majority of the F-16's. Its a different theater as the range of conflict is very limited. Add these SU-35's and you get a serious force multiplies effect, both on the sea-lines, countering the IN and some inside Pakistan.
Pakistan doesn't have to be offensive in this regards, if she has a strong defense and can are deny the IAF, that would do the trick. Strong defense keeps the enemy at bay!!


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## Foxtrot Delta

Viper0011. said:


> I wouldn't use the term "outclassed", but with JFT block II, BVRs and advance weapons (jets in numbers), plus the US provided additional F-16's (some new and used in numbers), give the PAF good teeth to keep the Indians at bay. Unless they are ready to lose half the SU-30 force and take out majority of the F-16's. Its a different theater as the range of conflict is very limited. Add these SU-35's and you get a serious force multiplies effect, both on the sea-lines, countering the IN and some inside Pakistan.
> Pakistan doesn't have to be offensive in this regards, if she has a strong defense and can are deny the IAF, that would do the trick. Strong defense keeps the enemy at bay!!


strong defence also includes a bit of offensive capabilities like destroying enemy aircraft on the runways.


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## Viper0011.

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *strong defence also includes a bit of offensive capabilities like destroying enemy aircraft on the runways.*



You won't have that due to your economy for the next 5 years. What you just told me, the generals in power (Presi-Gens) needed to think about for 50 plus years, instead of fulfilling their personal fantasy for power!!!

Now at this point, till the economy grows and all, you'll need a strong defense and its almost there. SAMS are needed in numbers and tiers though. For Indian bases and all, you can use standoff munitions and all.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lets not be shy of the terminology 
Air Superiority Fighter

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## Bilal587

India Pakistan should make peace pact between each other & stop arms race, money saved by these can be spent on improving people's life's.

That's is especially for india because India have more poor's than any other country

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## Foxtrot Delta

Viper0011. said:


> You won't have that due to your economy for the next 5 years. What you just told me, the generals in power (Presi-Gens) needed to think about for 50 plus years, instead of fulfilling their personal fantasy for power!!!
> 
> Now at this point, till the economy grows and all, you'll need a strong defense and its almost there. SAMS are needed in numbers and tiers though. For Indian bases and all, you can use standoff munitions and all.


can even pack a ucav burraq full of runway destroying munitions and crash low flying radar hidden kamakazi style suicidal drones into india, provided they cant interfier and hack the transmission controls opps! okay may be its a flop idea.


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## Viper0011.

Bilal587 said:


> India Pakistan should make peace pact between each other & stop arms race, money saved by these can be spent on improving people's life's.
> 
> That's is especially for india because India have more poor's than any other country



Good post. India doesn't care about the mass murders of her minorities or the poor. They care about being "soup-o-powa"!!! Craziest notion on the planet that they can be one with over 600 million people not able to take a sanitary shiit. Literally!!! You need your people to be at a level of higher income to support soup-o-powa crap. You can't have 600 MILLION people poor and yet dream of being a trillion dollar soup-o-powa!!!

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## Foxtrot Delta

Bilal587 said:


> India Pakistan should make peace pact between each other & stop arms race, money saved by these can be spent on improving people's life's.
> 
> That's is especially for india because India have more poor's than any other country


*T*hat would be an ideal word alot of the problems of this world can be solved and alot.of countries could come together who are held back just because of opposing camps pf india pakistan. these two countries have alot.of influence on world affairs seriously, if only the british didnt create hatred among indo pak muslim hindus. look at indian muslims they dont hate hinduz right? but the indians hate pakistaniz is the same way if not more. terrible problem. fuckers (indians) have me hating them too.


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## monitor

if the deal goes through i hope pakistan should buy at least 60 fighter for both paf and pn to supplement amd replace mirrage fighter.but big hurddle would be money .lets see how much credit russia offer .i think repayment option in around 20 year would be nice if botb side agree.


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## Foxtrot Delta

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *Air superiority aircraft is the terminology you are looking for.*


*lets not!*

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## Foxtrot Delta

monitor said:


> if the deal goes through i hope pakistan should buy at least 60 fighter for both paf and pn to supplement amd replace mirrage fighter.but big hurddle would be money .lets see how much credit russia offer .i think repayment option in around 20 year would be nice if botb side agree.


*60 SU-35s in reality its not possible in the short term. budget is pretty far stretched out. and 60 Fighters would be an Over kill.*



Foxtrot Delta said:


> *60 SU-35s in reality its not possible in the short term. budget is pretty far stretched out. and 60 Fighters would be an Over kill.*


*This should give an insight.*


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## Stannis Baratheon

Great buy for Pakistan, congratulations. Nations need to strengthen their Military in order to counter India's bullying in the region for their supremacy in the sub-continent and a delusion of becoming a super-power. 

Su-35 is one of the best 4.5 generation fighter jet out there, will definitely counter the Rafale.

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## Tipu7

Foxtrot Delta said:


> after marying a chinese girl here



You mentioned it to burn him...... aren't you.....?


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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> With you , I always enjoy !so stupid !lolzz
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360



This has already been addressed, you idiot. Read through the thread. An anonymous official's words are worthless.

I'm still waiting for the j-10 coming to Pakistan, that you keep harping on about.

It's not happening.


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## Stannis Baratheon

Foxtrot Delta said:


>


This is not remotely true, a new F-16 Block-50/52 costs $65 million each.

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## Maarkhoor

*Russia's Fourth-Gen Fighter Could Be The Best Thing On The Market*
*



*
*Sukhoi Su-35 Competes With The F-35 - Business Insider*


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## Maarkhoor

@Windjammer 
i just check the prices Su-35 (65 Million) and Rafale (67.5 Million)
Why Pakistan not going to purchase some Rafale off the shelves quickly to give India a lasting heartburn.

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## special

Stannis Baratheon said:


> Great buy for Pakistan, congratulations. Nations need to strengthen their Military in order to counter India's bullying in the region for their supremacy in the sub-continent and a delusion of becoming a super-power.
> 
> Su-35 is one of the best 4.5 generation fighter jet out there, will definitely counter the Rafale.


lol, indian supremacy is the reason why you become a Bengladeshi. 

SU-35 is not going to face rafale,.. it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA. and the reason for russian offer to pakistan is to put pressure on india to buy more pak fa. with an excuse to say "look we are only giving less advanced SU-35 to pakistan, but we are offering cutting edge PAK FA to you" 
this offer is noting but a russian tratics for india to buy more pak fa as india already cut down the number of PAK fa than we originally planed to buy(from 250 to 65)

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## Tipu7

special said:


> it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA.


Who will face J31 then?
super dooper Tejas?

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## Stannis Baratheon

special said:


> lol, indian supremacy is the reason why you become a Bengladeshi.


Yeah, like in 1947.



special said:


> SU-35 is not going to face rafale,.. it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA. and the reason for russian offer to pakistan is to put pressure on india to buy more pak fa. with an excuse to say "look we are only giving less advanced SU-35 to pakistan, but we are offering cutting edge PAK FA to you"
> this offer is noting but a russian tratics for india to buy more pak fa as india already cut down the number of PAK fa than we originally planed to buy(from 250 to 65)


LOL, if you think you are getting Pak FA in the next 5 to 6 years then you are truly disillusional. The Russians can't even induct a squadron of it into its own Air Force and you guys think you can get it. You might get a few for training but not enough for a squadron. 

Also, if Pakistan wants 5th generation fighter jets, I am sure they can go for the FC-31.



Tipu7 said:


> super dooper Tejas?


It's called 6th generation Tejas. It doesn't fly but can shoot down targets from the ground.



Abu Namr said:


> i just check the prices Su-35 (65 Million) and Rafale (67.5 Million)


That's not the fly-away cost of Rafale, it's over $110 million. Qatar is paying $7.1 billion for 24 Rafales, that's $295 million for a single jet.

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## Rashid Mahmood

If somehow PAF manages to buy the SU-35, they will greatly improve our deep strike capability and Maritime interdiction as well. However, to be effective enough, we need at least 3 sqdns, which include a dedicated sqdn at Masroor.

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## Maarkhoor

Stannis Baratheon said:


> that's $295 million for a single jet.


In that case Rafale is highly over priced good for Indian to buy but i believe this cost inculcated training ground support system weaponry also.


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## Abdullah S.

special said:


> lol, indian supremacy is the reason why you become a Bengladeshi.
> 
> SU-35 is not going to face rafale,.. it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA. and the reason for russian offer to pakistan is to put pressure on india to buy more pak fa. with an excuse to say "look we are only giving less advanced SU-35 to pakistan, but we are offering cutting edge PAK FA to you"
> this offer is noting but a russian tratics for india to buy more pak fa as india already cut down the number of PAK fa than we originally planed to buy(from 250 to 65)


Man you Indians are really delusional . The world doesn't revolve around you mate. 

And by the time PAKFA is comes down to India, it won't be facing Su-35 or even F-16, it would be facing Chinese J31 or Turkish TFX. Happy hunting.


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## Foxtrot Delta

Tipu7 said:


> You mentioned it to burn him...... aren't you.....?


naah just implying my kids are going to he chinese **


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## Stannis Baratheon

Abu Namr said:


> In that case Rafale is highly over priced good for Indian to buy but i believe this cost inculcated training ground support system weaponry also.


Because you will need that when you purchase a new weapons system. These costs can't be excluded. The Su-35 will have a cost of $90-110 million each including all those factors.

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## Foxtrot Delta

Stannis Baratheon said:


> This is not remotely true, a new F-16 Block-50/52 costs $65 million each.


what the heck? i know.for a fact that UAE baught f-16E/F for 34 million dollars each, how can a pakistani block 52+ aircraft which is less capable and has less fancy avionics and engine be of 65 million dollars? thats the unit cost of Su-35 rafale! and when i.say unit cost it does not include weapons spare parts or fuel costs, i guoted unit cost from.the manufacturers if we.change components which PAF mostly does the price can shoot up. anyways thats always welcome and good to improve things up. im sticking with my point f-16 A/B unit cost 17 million dollars. and by the way india always buys weapons for 25% more cost as compared to russian air force i dont know why may be its policy.

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## Maarkhoor

Stannis Baratheon said:


> Because you will need that when you purchase a new weapons system. These costs can't be excluded. The Su-35 will have a cost of $90-110 million each including all those factors.


So it means future cost for Rafale for India is less then the current same applies to Pakistan for SU-35


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## Foxtrot Delta

special said:


> lol, indian supremacy is the reason why you become a Bengladeshi.
> 
> SU-35 is not going to face rafale,.. it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA. and the reason for russian offer to pakistan is to put pressure on india to buy more pak fa. with an excuse to say "look we are only giving less advanced SU-35 to pakistan, but we are offering cutting edge PAK FA to you"
> this offer is noting but a russian tratics for india to buy more pak fa as india already cut down the number of PAK fa than we originally planed to buy(from 250 to 65)


Pak fa can be countered with matured/tweaked j-31 no problem and there is a rumor about Pak fa t-150 specific counter aircraft at shenyang design institute. but yet its only a rumor no source.



Rashid Mahmood said:


> If somehow PAF manages to buy the SU-35, they will greatly improve our deep strike capability and Maritime interdiction as well. However, to be effective enough, we need at least 3 sqdns, which include a dedicated sqdn at Masroor.


*y*ou should re-phrase that like if some how russia manges to sell the SU-35，they will greatly... its not the inability to buy on PAF's part its on if russia can really sell it to pakistan proving india is the client state and russia is in control not the other way around.


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## Stannis Baratheon

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *what the heck? i know.for a fact that UAE baught f-16E/F for 34 million dollars each, how can a pakistani block 52+ aircraft which is less capable and has less fancy avionics and engine be of 65 million dollars? thats the unit cost of Su-35 rafale! and when i.say unit cost it does not include weapons spare parts or fuel costs, i guoted unit cost from.the manufacturers if we.change components which PAF mostly does the price can shoot up. anyways thats always welcome and good to improve things up. im sticking with my point f-16 A/B unit cost 17 million dollars. and by the way india always buys weapons for 25% more cost as compared to russian air force i dont know why may be its policy.*


I am not talking about Pakistan, it was Iraq, the cost was $65 million (all new planes) excluding weapons and future spare parts, meaning training+aircraft price. Also, it is cheaper upgrading F-16 A/B to Block-52 than buying new ones.

UAE bought 25 F-16 block-60 (brand new not upgraded) for $4-5 billion at $160-200 million each.
UAE Orders More F-16E/F Fighters | Defense News: Aviation International News


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## Foxtrot Delta

Stannis Baratheon said:


> I am not talking about Pakistan, it was Iraq, the cost was $65 million (all new planes) excluding weapons and future spare parts, meaning training+aircraft price. Also, it is cheaper upgrading F-16 A/B to Block-52 than buying new ones.
> 
> UAE bought 25 F-16 block-60 (brand new not upgraded) for $4-5 billion at $160-200 million each.


 *the article does not.quote unit price.just says 60 planes for 5 billion . didnt quote unit price where did you get this figure of 200 million us dollars for a f-16 block 60 e/f?*


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## nadeemkhan110

Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest
Pakistan is negotiating a deal to purchase Sukhoi-35 'Flanker E' fighter jets from Russia, which is expected to be the largest defense deal between the two countries, according to IHS Jane’s.
A senior Pakistani government official confirmed the discussions between Pakistan and Russia regarding the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. However, the official emphasized that it is “too early” to tell whether both countries will reach an agreement.
Previous reports indicated that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets.
According to the Pakistani official, they are interested in the Su-35 fighter jets because the country’s Air Force needs a twin-engine fighter with the capacity to fly longer range than the JF-17 and to penetrate deeply into the enemy’s territory.
Pakistan’s Air Force has a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) F16 Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder. China and Pakistan partnered in producing the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.
Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest

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## Stannis Baratheon

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *the article does not.quote unit price.just says 60 planes for 5 billion . didnt quote unit price where did you get this figure of 200 million us dollars for a f-16 block 60 e/f?*


I just divided the total by 25.


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## Foxtrot Delta

Stannis Baratheon said:


> I just divided the total by 25.


*l thats the sum total of weapons training facilities installation and consultancy fee for each aircraft not the unit cost of the plane. Thank God PAF pays fraction of this money in 200 million i recon we could easily get 3 block 52 f-16s only no supportive.shit just the aircraft. 200 million is aloooot of money and its dollars!*


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## Great Sachin

if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck

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## [Bregs]

This deal will create strategic shift in Indian policy India to what level this remains to be seen. The official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

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## TMA

Good news. Please God this will go through. We must encourage all our friends and family of the importance of building a relationship with the Russian Federation akin to the one with China, even stronger perhaps.


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## Rashid Mahmood

I feel that by these talks,
Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Woah!!

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## GURU DUTT

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure in the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.



u nailed it saeen ji

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## Sugarcane

GURU DUTT said:


> unlike China and USA russia doesnt does buisness with finance schemes like soft loans or war remitence/CSF/militarry aid they onli do that in hard cash.......
> 
> if pakistan has that kind of money to buy them all in hard cash and money to make
> 
> a new war doctroine around them and training its personlle on those lines
> 
> money for completelli new service and repair/mantainence infra
> 
> and a totalli new type of wepon systems for it
> 
> if you have that kind of money then no one can stop you in that
> 
> View attachment 258358



USA will finance procurement from Russia, just like she is financing Mi-35. In short It's Putin who have to worry about recovering money from Pakistan not Indians.

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## pak avatar

i dont get it:
India expects Russia to remain faithful and quiet when it buys western hardware over Russian. 
Then when Russians decide to sell to Pakistan, Indians are like no no u cant do that, we have a deep friendship(even though we will buy US toys).
Make no mistake if this deal is true, India has itself to blame

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?
> 
> Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia
> 
> By Bilal Khan
> 
> 19 September 2015
> 
> It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.
> 
> For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.
> 
> This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.
> 
> *How will Russia get this deal past India?*
> 
> The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against whatever Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.
> 
> *Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?*
> 
> Another, increasingly oft-cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “_coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” _According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as a liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.
> 
> Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition of the U.S, which could benefit Russia and China in Central Asia. However, Russia and China are not expansionary powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from the U.S. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s apparent efforts.
> 
> In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash and a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).
> 
> *Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?*
> 
> This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities within its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.
> 
> Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):
> 
> _The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively._​
> It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?
> 
> In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:
> 
> _The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned._
> 
> _… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” _DefenseNews​
> In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:
> 
> _The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. _IHS Jane’s 360​
> Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?
> 
> It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.
> 
> In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.
> 
> In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.
> 
> *Managing Expectations*
> 
> Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors, such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath), would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.



Ensuring open sea lines of communication SLOC is of paramount importance to pakistan.

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## GURU DUTT

LoveIcon said:


> USA will finance procurement from Russia, just like she is financing Mi-35. In short It's Putin who have to worry about recovering money from Pakistan not Indians.


ya right and china will back indian claim for UNSC permanent mebership


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## Great Sachin

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure in the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.


could be...


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## 21 Dec 2012

Misleading title


pak avatar said:


> i dont get it:
> India expects Russia to remain faithful and quiet when it buys western hardware over Russian.
> Then when Russians decide to sell to Pakistan, Indians are like no no u cant do that, we have a deep friendship(even though we will buy US toys).
> Make no mistake if this deal is true, India has itself to blame


Doesn't Russia already sell to China?


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## Maarkhoor

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck


Same case with India Russia biggest and honest supplier of defense equipment to India but India chooses France or USA over Russia it is not like Russia looses business but a slap on Russian face surely they return it back selling equipment to Pakistan. And Russia supplies China a big rival / threat to India does it matter for Russia no.

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## jaiind

so many threads on su 35 sale to pak.


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## GURU DUTT

qamar1990 said:


> once again why do yous sound jealous??


he he he he pakistani fantasy of indians bieng jealous on reports of Su-35 for pkaistan is like like lewis hamilton getting jelous of @qamar1990 as qamar wants to buy a merc

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## Sugarcane

GURU DUTT said:


> ya right and china will back indian claim for UNSC permanent mebership



May be or may not, but how Pakistan will arrange funds for any procurement from Russia, or how Russia will recover money from Pakistan for her sales is not the thing which Indians should be worried about.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck



So you can by from usa but russia can't sell to Pak ?


As for biggest buyer etx.... You guys aren't in the ideal position to blackmail russia .. Considering the fact thT it's you who are dependent on Russia to supply spares for most of your equipment tht is of russian origin ... And not the other way around ...

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## GURU DUTT

LoveIcon said:


> May be or may not, but how Pakistan will arrange funds for any procurement from Russia, or how Russia will recover money from Pakistan for her sales is not the thing which Indians should be worried about.


well russian always take more than 40% of the deal ammount before first diliverry and almost entire sum of deal till 60% diliverries are made so i dont have to wrry about russians it will be pakistanies who will be worried ..... dont trust indians on it try it yourself...... good luck


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## Bang Galore

I like the headline...*largest*..., then you see it described as the largest deal between Pakistan & Russia...potentially. Even two planes would qualify as that.....

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## pak avatar

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Misleading title
> 
> Doesn't Russia already sell to China?


I think u will agree Russia-China and Russia-Pakistan relations are two completely different things.


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## khanboy007

How many of these birds are we looking at ?_ I read 120 somewhere_ *not sure though !!*

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## 21 Dec 2012

pak avatar said:


> I think u will agree Russia-China and Russia-Pakistan relations are two completely different things.


Not from India's perspective. Both are enemies. China an even bigger enemy than Pakistan. I don't think Russia can complain about Indian relationship with the US.


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## SpArK

This deal is a possibility. 

If YES , then it will be a game changer for PAF, as the jet and its variants are the best available in world today and Pakistan can neutralize any threat from Indian side with this formidable fighter.

If NO, then all the variants are old design Russian junk, with bad reputation, bad costs and better options are available from other countries like J-11 and JF-17 can easily match Su-30 variants.

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## jaiind

Abu Namr said:


> Same case with India Russia biggest and honest supplier of defense equipment to India but India chooses France or USA over Russia it is not like Russia looses business but a slap on Russian face surely they return it back selling equipment to Pakistan. And Russia supplies China a big rival / threat to India does it matter for Russia no.


US has been aiding pak since decades with its tech and $$. Russia could not provide any stuff in the form of aid like america, then how would you mange the $$ to get decent fleet??.


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## special

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Pak fa can be countered with matured/tweaked j-31 no problem and there is a rumor about Pak fa t-150 specific counter aircraft at shenyang design institute. but yet its only a rumor no source.





Abdullah S. said:


> Man you Indians are really delusional . The world doesn't revolve around you mate.
> 
> And by the time PAKFA is comes down to India, it won't be facing Su-35 or even F-16, it would be facing Chinese J31 or . Happy hunting.


lol.. you pakistanis are really fools.. 
pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time. 
Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters???  now think who is in delusion.
india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??



Stannis Baratheon said:


> LOL, if you think you are getting Pak FA in the next 5 to 6 years then you are truly disillusional. The Russians can't even induct a squadron of it into its own Air Force and you guys think you can get it. You might get a few for training but not enough for a squadron.
> .


russia is going to introduce pak fa in 2016. india will get it in 2018. by the time pakistan(if they order the SU-35) have su-35.



Stannis Baratheon said:


> Yeah, like in 1947.


no, like in 1971.


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## Tameem

@Beast is that your thread in 2012?......Genius!
Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?

What you say on this latest development? is this anywhere related to your those hypothesis?

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## gau8av

I'll be honest, this would suck if it goes through.


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## farhan_9909

Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars

Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.

So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem

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## Maarkhoor

jaiind said:


> US has been aiding pak since decades with its tech and $$. Russia could not provide any stuff in the form of aid like america, then how would you mange the $$ to get decent fleet??.


This is not your / Indian problem if we are discussing then we must have already gather the sources we are not doing dumb things like MMRCA. You know the Pakistani economy back in 80s when we purchased latest F-16, when china is investing 40 + billions or probably more and have Gawader on lease so thinks about that it is hard to get 3 or 4 billion funds from china to protect its assets here in Pakistan.

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## Skull and Bones

Congratulations.


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## jaiind

Abu Namr said:


> This is not your / Indian problem if we are discussing then we must have already gather the sources we are not doing dumb things like MMRCA. You know the Pakistani economy back in 80s when we purchased latest F-16, when china is investing 40 + billions or probably more and have Gawader on lease so thinks about that it is hard to get 3 or 4 billion funds from china to protect its assets here in Pakistan.


does china is purchasing these jets on behalf of you to get their hands on the su 35 engines ??


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## nadeemkhan110

RANGE of SU-35
If successful, the acquisition could have an immediate impact on these disputes. In addition to strengthening China’s hand in a hypothetical conflict, the Su-35’s range and fuel capacity would allow the People’s Liberation Army Navy Air Force (PLANAF) to undertake extended patrols of the disputed areas, following the model it has used to apply pressure to Japan over the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands.





Map of south china sea

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> This has already been addressed, you idiot. Read through the thread. An anonymous official's words are worthless.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the j-10 coming to Pakistan, that you keep harping on about.
> 
> It's not happening.


For you the statement given by Russian DFM & then Jane s defence journal is also nothing ?
So idiot ? You are ?
Cause no one will ever going to you , & ask hey idiot may we sell or buy these birds pls give us your permission ?lolzz

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## volatile

khanboy007 said:


> How many of these birds are we looking at ?_ I read 120 somewhere_ *not sure though !!*


PAF is looking for 2 squadron atleast for any heavy weight titan not 120 .120 figure appears more plasuible for F16 with 200 JF17

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## Bang Galore

farhan_9909 said:


> Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.
> 
> So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem




Without going into actual purchase issues, let me point out a problem with that line of thinking. If the defence budget is $8 billion, it would probably leave about $ 2-3 billion available for capital purchase, the rest having gone for expenses. That will then have to be divided by the three forces, the PA getting the largest portion. The actual amount available for the Air Force would be a small portion of that & that would be for all purchases, not just one. More likely that the government would have to add a separate component in the budget to manage such purchases.


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## I M Sikander

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck


India isnt going any where.
Iaf is 90 percent russian jets, except mirages.

Iaf cant get rid of russian jets till next 3 decades. Su 30 are supreme iaf jets and the situation will remain so in coming decades.

India is tightly bound to russia by PAKFA and upgrade programs for SU30 and mig 29. Russian knows that india cant divorse them so they are discovering new friends.

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## rockstarIN

farhan_9909 said:


> Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.
> 
> So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem



Are you ready to put/spent half of your military budget to buy 36 jets from a country which has long term relationship with you arch enemy, who gonna buy their latest 5th gen jet in numbers and customize it?

Whereas the well experienced good old F-16s are available in the market, cheaper options? 

Its quite risky IMO. Just like India going to purchase 300 F-35s from America!


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## special

farhan_9909 said:


> Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.
> 
> So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem



nice logic...
pakistan military consists of army, navy and air force. the 8 billion $ is for all, not only for AF.


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## Kompromat

I have heard 2 squadrons.

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## I M Sikander

LoveIcon said:


> USA will finance procurement from Russia, just like she is financing Mi-35. In short It's Putin who have to worry about recovering money from Pakistan not Indians.


Typical butt hurt indian. Talking utter nonsense in furstation.

Can you please tell me single defence deal in which pakistan failed to make it payments and cancelled the deal.

Unlike india , we dont do MMRCA drama and then fu....k the deal after 8 years trials and negotiations, as indians cant afford the 20 billion dollar jet deal.

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## Irfioo7

If this deal is inked, is it going to affect FGFA il 214 Brahmos 2 , no it won't ,is India willing to sacrifice such tech to teach lesson to Russia, Russia is in a win win situation

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## Vyom

at 65 Million a piece let see how many can Paksitan afford..


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## Maarkhoor

Most probably Russia playing with Pakistan and Pakistan also for two reasons
1- Russia want India to get jets from Russia only 
2- Pakistan is telling USA if not you provide high tech weapons we can purchase from Russia.
It is game if Pakistan needs these type of Fighter we can get from China easily since we can't trust bear so that the Bear.

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## I M Sikander

special said:


> nice logic...
> pakistan military consists of army, navy and air force. the 8 billion $ is for all, not only for AF.


Payments are usually made in 5 to 8 year tenure, after signing of agreement. So by paying 500 million dollar each year, paf can make payment for 36 jets in 8 years. Delivery of jets also take around 4-5 years to complete.

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## abdulbarijan

special said:


> lol, indian supremacy is the reason why you become a Bengladeshi.
> 
> SU-35 is not going to face rafale,.. it is going to face PAK FA/FGFA. and the reason for russian offer to pakistan is to put pressure on india to buy more pak fa. with an excuse to say "look we are only giving less advanced SU-35 to pakistan, but we are offering cutting edge PAK FA to you"
> this offer is noting but a russian tratics for india to buy more pak fa as india already cut down the number of PAK fa than we originally planed to buy(from 250 to 65)



You put an interesting point there ... glossing over the 1971 thing which Indians love to bring up .. and 1965 as well after the recent celebrations you guys had ... maybe, who knows .. you'll also start celebrating 1962 ... but lets come to your point ...

- While aircrafts are made to have certain advantages over say a set type of aircrafts ... but lets not assume that while reacting to a threat you would be able to put X aircraft against Y aircraft ... the one's with the most probability of engaging those aggressors would be the jets either patrolling the area or ones at the most nearest FOB's ..

- Secondly, its really amusing to see an Indian member talking as if the deal is already done ... hold your horses .. we're just in the initial phases of negotiations ... you might see a completely different supplier for a similar jet ... or a very customized SU-35 ... but then again that depends on how the negotiations go ...

-lastly, As far as Pak-FA goes, PAF is already in negotiations for FC-31 as our next generation project .. so, the deal as to, who engages who ... or which jet is meant to negate the advantages of a certain jet from the other side ... it would be FC-31 for PAF against Pak-FA for IAF ..

As far as pressure for more Pak-Fa's ... the problem is ... the Russians have already witnessed India screwing them out of the MMRCA --- then we had the Indians going for US equipment ... they can already see the writing on the wall -- where IAF is going for more western equipment ... now that the Indian economy is expanding ..
In the end, they may even use it as a pressure tactic, but the bigger picture is.. Russia looking in to other markets now that India is diversifying its suppliers ...

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## special

Irfioo7 said:


> If this deal is inked, is it going to affect FGFA il 214 Brahmos 2 , no it won't ,is India willing to sacrifice such tech to teach lesson to Russia, Russia is in a win win situation



who told you india have only these projects with russia. india is not going to sacrifice Brahmos or FGFA.. there are other deals such as Ka 226 chopper deal, T-90ms, armata tank, ammunition for tanks, and many other...


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## I M Sikander

Vyom said:


> at 65 Million a piece let see how many can Paksitan afford..


We are already paying america 1 billion dollar (67 million dollar per piece) for 15 vipers choppers. 
Any more butt hurt questions?


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## Great Sachin

Abu Namr said:


> Same case with India Russia biggest and honest supplier of defense equipment to India but India chooses France or USA over Russia it is not like Russia looses business but a slap on Russian face surely they return it back selling equipment to Pakistan. And Russia supplies China a big rival / threat to India does it matter for Russia no.


after all this...India is still the biggest buyer for Russia....can they afford to lose that buyer....Can you lose your traditional biggest buyer for very small buyer who is mostly rely on loan


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## special

Ranasikander said:


> Payments are usually made in 5 to 8 year tenure, after signing of agreement. So by paying 500 million dollar each year, paf can make payment for 36 jets in 8 years. Delivery of jets also take around 4-5 years to complete.



recently pakistan had ordered many expensive deals such as attack chopper deal from us, submarines and frigates, helecoptors from china, so your budget is already stretched. 
as US is planing to stop military aid to pakistan. it will be a great difficult for you to order su-35.
any way.. lets wait and watch what will happen to SU35 deals and its effect of indo-russian relation.


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## batmannow

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.


Sory ,
I don't think decade old F-16s are worthy for PAF any more & specially suffering in karagill war in which our F-16s didn't able to fly , we think its really needed ?
Pakistan is doing the right thing , with China ,s special interests Pakistan & Russia are now strategic friends .
Pakistan needs a super fighter which at least stand 20 more years as the flying terminator to its enemies & will not have any shortage of spares & its supplies ?
With China have all sorts of flankers including SU-27 (J11s) , SU -30 & also su 35s it hasballl the spares & over hauling facilities in its hands , which will be used by PAF in any sort of situations at any time ?
Russia has the biggest cash holder investor /partner China in its banks so its not worried about lossing India ?
Instead just imagine most of Indian navy & its air force is been made by RUSSIA , if India goes for any deal with USA , Russia can stop all the supplies to India , just then India will be a sitting duck even to Bangladesh air force ?
All this social media warriors of India are just thumping thier chests cause they knew already their govt not have much in its hands ?



special said:


> recently pakistan had ordered many expensive deals such as attack chopper deal from us, submarines and frigates, helecoptors from china, so your budget is already stretched.
> as US is planing to stop military aid to pakistan. it will be a great difficult for you to order su-35.
> any way.. lets wait and watch what will happen to SU35 deals and its effect of indo-russian relation.


Who told you USA has planned to stop AID to us ?
You just got the dream ?right ?lolzz


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## Great Sachin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So you can by from usa but russia can't sell to Pak ?
> 
> 
> As for biggest buyer etx.... You guys aren't in the ideal position to blackmail russia .. Considering the fact thT it's you who are dependent on Russia to supply spares for most of your equipment tht is of russian origin ... And not the other way around ...


but we can stop new business with Russia....like PAK FA etc....which is huge deal compare to your tiny deal...


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## I M Sikander

special said:


> recently pakistan had ordered many expensive deals such as attack chopper deal from us, submarines and frigates, helecoptors from china, so your budget is already stretched.
> as US is planing to stop military aid to pakistan. it will be a great difficult for you to order su-35.
> any way.. lets wait and watch what will happen to SU35 deals and its effect of indo-russian relation.


Most procurements are from china, which are against soft loan on long term basis.


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## Sugarcane

GURU DUTT said:


> well russian always take more than 40% of the deal ammount before first diliverry and almost entire sum of deal till 60% diliverries are made so i dont have to wrry about russians it will be pakistanies who will be worried ..... dont trust indians on it try it yourself...... good luck



Again, it's none of India's concern. *IF* PAF wants Su-35 and Russia is willing to sell than Indians can't do anything except burning, just like it happened with engines of JF-17 and Mi-35.


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## Vyom

Ranasikander said:


> We are already paying america 1 billion dollar (67 million dollar per piece) for 15 vipers choppers.
> Any more butt hurt questions?



Okay 15 vipers. that's hardly a Squadron. so you will but one squadron of Su 35 and threaten Inida with it.. good luck... and yes Su 35 cost is without weapons.


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## hell__raider

By the time Pakistan gets Su-35 India will get PAK-FA. Pakistan is behind the curve.


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## batmannow

Great Sachin said:


> after all this...India is still the biggest buyer for Russia....can they afford to lose that buyer....Can you lose your traditional biggest buyer for very small buyer who is mostly rely on loan


No way India can go to any one , cause then whole of its Russian made navy & air force will be sitting duck with out spares & supplies from Russia ?
Just few orders to USA won't make India running its hugely Russian bassesd air force & navy running day to day operations. 
& what ever & to whom ever India orders it won't make their air force or navay standup in few days ?


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## Cry.me.a.River

gau8av said:


> I'll be honest, this would suck if it goes through.




Only if you still believe in India-Russia bhai-bhai and ignore that Indo-Russian relations have always been based on hard economics.

Such a radical move would give a kick in nuts to Russian lobby in South block, and accelerate our program of indigenisation and move towards western sources.


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## Great Sachin

Ranasikander said:


> India isnt going any where.
> Iaf is 90 percent russian jets, except mirages.
> 
> Iaf cant get rid of russian jets till next 3 decades. Su 30 are supreme iaf jets and the situation will remain so in coming decades.
> 
> India is tightly bound to russia by PAKFA and upgrade programs for SU30 and mig 29. Russian knows that india cant divorse them so they are discovering new friends.


how about future projects.....India is biggest revenue maker for Russia....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Great Sachin said:


> but we can stop new business with Russia....like PAK FA etc....which is huge deal compare to your tiny deal...


You can't even if you wanted to... From jets down to ammunition you are dependent on Russia ... Most of your military is soviet made... You are dependent on Russia ... Not the otherwat around.

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## hell__raider

By the time Pakistan gets Su-35 India will get PAK-FA. Pakistan is behind the curve.


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## batmannow

hell__raider said:


> By the time Pakistan gets Su-35 India will get PAK-FA. Pakistan is behind the curve.


Its been happening since 14years ?
Still on papers ?lolzz


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## gau8av

Cry.me.a.River said:


> Only if you still believe in India-Russia bhai-bhai and ignore that Indo-Russian relations have always been based on hard economics.
> 
> Such a radical move would give a kick in nuts to Russian lobby in South block, and accelerate our program of indigenisation and move towards western sources.


that's the real endgame but Indigenization is still long way off, for now we're still heavily dependent on imports.


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## I M Sikander

Great Sachin said:


> but we can stop new business with Russia....like PAK FA etc....which is huge deal compare to your tiny deal...


Just go and do it dude. Do it at once if indian defence strategist have balls.

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## hell__raider

batmannow said:


> Its been happening since 14years ?
> Still on papers ?lolzz


Developing a fifth generation plane takes time. It is not as simple as recruiting some kids as jihadis, training them for 3 months & sending them to Kashmir.

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## Maarkhoor

Great Sachin said:


> after all this...India is still the biggest buyer for Russia....can they afford to lose that buyer....Can you lose your traditional biggest buyer for very small buyer who is mostly rely on loan


yes it is right India is the biggest buyer of Russian Stuff but is India succeeded to Stop Russia selling top fighters and equipment to China and one more thing India is the top buyer and top dependent is it possible for India to ditch Russian ? yes business is business India trying to procure Jets from France and helo From USA.

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## Erroroverload



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## kamrananvaar

Abu Namr said:


> Most probably Russia playing with Pakistan and Pakistan also for two reasons
> 1- Russia want India to get jets from Russia only
> 2- Pakistan is telling USA if not you provide high tech weapons we can purchase from Russia.
> It is game if Pakistan needs these type of Fighter we can get from China easily since we can't trust bear so that the Bear.


We cant trust america or havent you learned your lesson yet . Name one instance that the us has stood up for you. . 
You get f16 after how many years that you paid for . The irony you had to pay for storage and your leadership never sued their *** . That being ganja and co not that zrdari wouldnt have done the same. 
I am not a technical person but after so many years doesnt the tech become obsolete. Also the ban on pakistan . Does that ring a bell.

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## Great Sachin

batmannow said:


> No way India can go to any one , cause then whole of its Russian made navy & air force will be sitting duck with out spares & supplies from Russia ?
> Just few orders to USA won't make India running its hugely Russian bassesd air force & navy running day to day operations.
> & what ever & to whom ever India orders it won't make their air force or navay standup in few days ?


we already started buying from US and France....Dont forget all the SU30 parts are being manufactured in India...Russian will loose billion if they stop supplying other parts....

and why they will do all this for some tiny deal with Pakistan?


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## GURU DUTT

LoveIcon said:


> Again, it's none of India's concern. *IF* PAF wants Su-35 and Russia is willing to sell than Indians can't do anything except burning, just like it happened with engines of JF-17 and Mi-35.


as i said before good luck with it i hope su-35s come intpo PAF sooner than later .... cheers mate


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## nadeemkhan110

radar coverage areas of SU-35

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## batmannow

hell__raider said:


> Developing a fifth generation plane takes time. It is not as simple as recruiting some kids as jihadis, training them for 3 months & sending them to Kashmir.


So take more 14years I don't mind it ?lolzz
& after su -35 deal with Pakistan ,I'm sure Russian will add 14 more years to it ?lolzz


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## Icarus

Russia has a massive MIC and it is their necessity to sell military hardware, with every one out of four persons employed in the MIC, there is a lot more than just their prestige at stake. Pakistan at the moment is also in a bind, the US has all but forsaken our defence needs, a fact that is further compounded by our economic situation. In such a case, it was only natural for Russia and Pakistan to begin seeing each other as a potential way out. 
As for the SU-35, there is no question about the capability of the platform and it could do wonders for PAF. But I will wait for more concrete developments before factoring it into the domestic security equation. Even the official quoted in the article has said that there is no guarantee that anything will be agreed upon. 
There is also the J-11 is which can perform in a similar role and will be more readily available to Pakistan, these are all considerations that need to be balanced out.

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## Great Sachin

Abu Namr said:


> yes it is right India is the biggest buyer of Russian Stuff but is India succeeded to Stop Russia selling top fighters and equipment to China and one more thing India is the top buyer and top dependent is it possible for India to ditch Russian ? yes business is business India trying to procure Jets from France and helo From USA.


India never stopped Russia to sell stuff to China...but sure ...Modi will play his card to stop selling to Pakistan....


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## I M Sikander

Great Sachin said:


> how about future projects.....India is biggest revenue maker for Russia....


India is already in agreements with russia on many defence projects for next 15 years. This include brahmos 2, PAKFA, su30 and mig 29 upgrades etc etc. Divorcing russia is no good option for india. 

If france can sell sub marines and jets simultaneously to pakistan and india then why cant russia. Its pure business and defence strategy at the same time.

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## Cry.me.a.River

Ranasikander said:


> India isnt going any where.
> Iaf is 90 percent russian jets, except mirages.
> 
> Iaf cant get rid of russian jets till next 3 decades. Su 30 are supreme iaf jets and the situation will remain so in coming decades.
> 
> India is tightly bound to russia by PAKFA and upgrade programs for SU30 and mig 29. Russian knows that india cant divorse them so they are discovering new friends.




India has Mig 21,27,29 and Su-30MKI of Russian Origin; Mirage-2000 of French origin, and Jaguar of French/British origin. 

Barring Su-30MKI and Mig29, all Russian jets are nearing retirement.In 5 years, Percentage of Russian jets in Indian Arsenal would drop down below 50%.


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## batmannow

hell__raider said:


> Developing a fifth generation plane takes time. It is not as simple as recruiting some kids as jihadis, training them for 3 months & sending them to Kashmir.


So take more 14years I don't mind it ?lolzz
& after su -35 deal with Pakistan ,I'm sure Russian will add 14 more years to it ?lolzz


Great Sachin said:


> we already started buying from US and France....Dont forget all the SU30 parts are being manufactured in India...Russian will loose billion if they stop supplying other parts....
> 
> and why they will do all this for some tiny deal with Pakistan?


Then go & do it , sure India can use $u-30s spares to its navy too ?lolzzz

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## Maarkhoor

Great Sachin said:


> India never stopped Russia to sell stuff to China...but sure ...Modi will play his card to stop selling to Pakistan....


Then try it

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## special

abdulbarijan said:


> You put an interesting point there ... glossing over the 1971 thing which Indians love to bring up .. and 1965 as well after the recent celebrations you guys had ... maybe, who knows .. you'll also start celebrating 1962 ... but lets come to your point ...
> 
> -...



unlike you we accepts defeats. and no one in india is celebrating 1962 war as a victory day. 


abdulbarijan said:


> While aircrafts are made to have certain advantages over say a set type of aircrafts ... but lets not assume that while reacting to a threat you would be able to put X aircraft against Y aircraft ... the one's with the most probability of engaging those aggressors would be the jets either patrolling the area or ones at the most nearest FOB's ..
> 
> - Secondly, its really amusing to see an Indian member talking as if the deal is already done ... hold your horses .. we're just in the initial phases of negotiations ... you might see a completely different supplier for a similar jet ... or a very customized SU-35 ... but then again that depends on how the negotiations go ...
> .


no indian members are saying that this deal is signed.. from very 1st post we are saying the same... "good luck with the deal".


abdulbarijan said:


> -lastly, As far as Pak-FA goes, PAF is already in negotiations for FC-31 as our next generation project .. so, the deal as to, who engages who ... or which jet is meant to negate the advantages of a certain jet from the other side ... it would be FC-31 for PAF against Pak-FA for IAF ..
> 
> As far as pressure for more Pak-Fa's ... the problem is ... the Russians have already witnessed India screwing them out of the MMRCA --- then we had the Indians going for US equipment ... they can already see the writing on the wall -- where IAF is going for more western equipment ... now that the Indian economy is expanding ..
> In the end, they may even use it as a pressure tactic, but the bigger picture is.. Russia looking in to other markets now that India is diversifying its suppliers ...



the deal for j-31 will be over if PAF go for su-35 as the payment for russian jets will take majority of your defence budget. so buying j-31 will be really difficult for pakistan. 

the russians lost the MMRCA because they give jet engines to pakistan, when the deal for engine(for JF-17) was signed by china and russia, it was known that mig 35 is out. some indian air force personals had also said that. 
india is going for western equipment is because russian hardware are maintenance nighmeir. and also the western equipment are better in quality and advanced than russian.


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## Skywalker

Vyom said:


> at 65 Million a piece let see how many can Paksitan afford..


We have been buying latest jets since our independence, you only started buying top of the line western jets recently again, so dont tell the daddy how to fcuk. Last but not the least dont worry about budget allocation it isnaoways been different what we show for the public consmption.

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## Maarkhoor

kamrananvaar said:


> We cant trust america or havent you learned your lesson yet . Name one instance that the us has stood up for you. .
> You get f16 after how many years that you paid for . The irony you had to pay for storage and your leadership never sued their *** . That being ganja and co not that zrdari wouldnt have done the same.
> I am not a technical person but after so many years doesnt the tech become obsolete. Also the ban on pakistan . Does that ring a bell.


And you trust Russians ? If in middle of war with India they stop spares for the Jets.

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## batmannow

Cry.me.a.River said:


> India has Mig 21,27,29 and Su-30MKI of Russian Origin; Mirage-2000 of French origin, and Jaguar of French/British origin.
> 
> Barring Su-30MKI and Mig29, all Russian jets are nearing retirement.In 5 years, Percentage of Russian jets in Indian Arsenal would drop down below 50%.


So ,.cool then keep waiting for 5 more years when you really not much needed Russia for spares & amuonation supplies from Russia ?
Sorry but whole of your navy also is made of.russians & will you retire all of it in 5 years too ?lolzz

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## Great Sachin

Abu Namr said:


> yes it is right India is the biggest buyer of Russian Stuff but is India succeeded to Stop Russia selling top fighters and equipment to China and one more thing India is the top buyer and top dependent is it possible for India to ditch Russian ? yes business is business India trying to procure Jets from France and helo From USA.


India never stopped Russia to sell stuff to China...but sure ...Modi will play his card to stop selling to Pakistan....


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## special

batmannow said:


> Who told you USA has planned to stop AID to us ?
> You just got the dream ?right ?lolzz


US Set to Suspend Military Aid to Pakistan | The Diplomat


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## Skywalker

hell__raider said:


> By the time Pakistan gets Su-35 India will get PAK-FA. Pakistan is behind the curve.


Arey bhai you cant even cross the border with your super douper su 30 till now, we are not worried about your fgfa, when the time comes we will surprise you as we always did, our armed forces never discuss their procurements openly unlike yours who propogate and then come out with zilch.


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## I M Sikander

Cry.me.a.River said:


> India has Mig 21,27,29 and Su-30MKI of Russian Origin; Mirage-2000 of French origin, and Jaguar of French/British origin.
> 
> Barring Su-30MKI and Mig29, all Russian jets are nearing retirement.In 5 years, Percentage of Russian jets in Indian Arsenal would drop down below 50%.


The number of jaugars and mirage 2000 is nothing before russin jets inventory

Only mig 21 are near retirement and that too in 2020.

Mig 29, mig 27 and SU 30 MKIvwill remain the work horse of iaf.
Rafale if ever inducted will be just 36. So iaf will remain russian origin even after 2 deacdes from now specially after PAKFA inductions.


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## hell__raider

batmannow said:


> So take more 14years I don't mind it ?lolzz
> & after su -35 deal with Pakistan ,I'm sure Russian will add 14 more years to it ?lolzz


Russia needs PAK-FA more then India. We already have 200 Sukhois.


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## batmannow

special said:


> US Set to Suspend Military Aid to Pakistan | The Diplomat


Ankit pandooooo ?lolzz
Is that a Indian news paper ?lolzz

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## special

Ranasikander said:


> Most procurements are from china, which are against soft loan on long term basis.


soft loan don't mean it is a gift.. you have to pay back the money.


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## Skywalker

special said:


> US Set to Suspend Military Aid to Pakistan | The Diplomat


Please hurry up, we would be glad but for the butt hurt indian where these vipers are coming from...your arse.

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## Vyom

Skywalker said:


> We have been buying latest jets since our independence, you only started buying top of the line western jets recently again, so dont tell the daddy how to fcuk. Last but not the least dont worry about budget allocation it isnaoways been different what we show for the public consmption.



Ok good for you but you, buy a death star if you can. You have been told multiple times on who is the daddy even after loosing half of your country.... keep the expletive to your self, abuse will bring you more abuse. give graded point or scroll away.


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## hell__raider

Skywalker said:


> Arey bhai you cant even cross the border with your super douper su 30 till now, we are not worried about your fgfa, when the time comes we will surprise you as we always did, our armed forces never discuss their procurements openly unlike yours who propogate and then come out with zilch.


Pakistan is doing a good job of destroying itself. It will be foolish from India side to cross the border & stop it.


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## special

batmannow said:


> Is that a Indian news paper ?lolzz


no its not.
U.S. Looking to Suspend Millions in Military Aid to Pakistan | Fox News


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## Maarkhoor

Skywalker said:


> .your arse


humm pls don't use it

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## Skywalker

hell__raider said:


> Pakistan is doing a good job of destroying itself. It will be foolish from India side to cross the border & stop it.


You keep dreaming, let us finish these scums first, will be right after your arse on our eastern border. Hail modi.

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## I M Sikander

special said:


> soft loan don't mean it is a gift.. you have to pay back the money.


Yes but the repayment tenure is very flexible with low interest rates.

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## special

Skywalker said:


> Please hurry up, we would be glad but for the butt hurt indian where these vipers are coming from...your arse.


 
you got some mental problem by hearing that news??


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## I M Sikander

hell__raider said:


> Pakistan is doing a good job of destroying itself. It will be foolish from India side to cross the border & stop it.


Baita jani grow up. Forums arent for mental fartings for kids.

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## batmannow

hell__raider said:


> Russia needs PAK-FA more then India. We already have 200 Sukhois.


You need more ammo from Russia for your so called sukhois , its the Russia who created the whole your air force & you think they need you ?lolzzz
Wake up , or you will see Russia asking India s military help to fight with USA ?lolzz
Dream goes on ?

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## special

Ranasikander said:


> Yws but the repayment tenure is very flexible with low interest rates.


yes. but you need to pay it back.. that too in a shot period of time. i


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## Skywalker

Vyom said:


> Ok good for you but you, buy a death star if you can. You have been told multiple times on who is the daddy even after loosing half of your country.... keep the expletive to your self, abuse will bring you more abuse. give graded point or scroll away.


Being an indian thats what you desrve obviously i can talk about your arse cause you dont have balls. You can only kill innocent civilians.

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## batmannow

special said:


> no its not.
> U.S. Looking to Suspend Millions in Military Aid to Pakistan | Fox News


Fake news ! No official word in that ?lolzz


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## Mani2020

Considering news of china negotiating for su-35 have started to appear again, i believe there is something really cooking with China and Pakistan both on the table for su-35 negotiations with russia.... May be china wants to get hands onto latest russian flanker and they might do it via pakistan by sponsoring this deal or becoming a third party guarantor or financier... 

Point to consider here is that out of a sudden what pushed paf to even consider su-35 that too from a country which is the strategic partner of her enemy ..even if relationships are improving still even considering su-35 itself is a big leap and that big leap isn't a possibility without china's involvement. On chinese side may be they don't want to directly acquire su-35 not because they can't but may be because they don't want to as they themselves are developing alot of flanker versions which they are claiming to be superior to or atleast at par with their russian counterparts so in such case acquiring su-35 directly may result into creating a fuss among chinese ranks/public/foes and may create a belief that what china is producing is not upto the mark and still lag behind

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## special

batmannow said:


> You need more ammo from Russia for your so called sukhois , its the Russia who created the whole your air force & you think they need you ?lolzzz



yes, they need india.. india is also providing money for development of PAK FA. it is a JV. india and russia agreed this in 2007. that is why india ask russians to let the IAF pilots to fly the jet during the flight trails.


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## Fandingo

What I find to be extremely funny is that Pakistan with it's current budget can't even pay for 24 SU 35 + maintenance and upkeep without line of credit extended by Russia. (India will have 272 SU 30 MKI of which 40 - 60% will be converted to Super Sukhoi).

The Russian airforce is buying SU 35 in fewer numbers as the Su 30SM can be upgraded to FGFA standards, i.e. essentially a Su 35 v2.0. New engines, new radar, new avionics, composite restructuring, etc. 

Also more money is being spent on FGFA program which Russia can't bankroll without India's money. Why would someone(Russia) loan money to another person(Pakistan) if the person himself needed money in the first place.

The message here is kindly pour cash into our FGFA and SU 30 modernisation programs or else we may think about doing something incredibly stupid to irritate you.


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## batmannow

special said:


> yes. but you need to pay it back.. that too in a shot period of time. i


We have a big brother , he deals our cash , so we don't need to wory about it much ?lolzz
Why u are so worried ?
Be happy & congrats us have SU-35 ?lolzz

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## Fandingo

batmannow said:


> We have a big brother , he deals our cash , so we don't need to wory about it much ?lolzz
> Why u are so worried ?
> Be happy & congrats us have SU-35 ?lolzz



Because your chaachu is going through bad time and needs money. More than that they need SU 35 for the engines to power their underpowered next generation J 20.


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## special

batmannow said:


> Fake news ! No official word in that ?lolzz


read it carefully.. its is fox news.. not fake news.


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## Vyom

Skywalker said:


> Being an indian thats what you desrve obviously i can talk about your arse cause you dont have balls. You can only kill innocent civilians.



good on you. may you strap a C4 to your arse one day and go to jannah..


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## batmannow

Mani2020 said:


> Considering news of china negotiating for su-35 have started to appear again, i believe there is something really cooking with China and Pakistan both on the table for su-35 negotiations with russia.... May be china wants to get hands onto latest russian flanker and they might do it via pakistan by sponsoring this deal or becoming a third party guarantor or financier...
> 
> Point to consider here is that out of a sudden what pushed paf to even consider su-35 that too from a country which is the strategic partner of her enemy ..even if relationships are improving still even considering su-35 itself is a big leap and that big leap isn't a possibility without china's involvement. On chinese side may be they don't want to directly acquire su-35 not because they can't but may be because they don't want to as they themselves are developing alot of flanker versions which they are claiming to be superior to or atleast at par with their russian counterparts so in such case acquiring su-35 directly may result into creating a fuss among chinese ranks/public/foes and may create a belief that what china is producing is not upto the mark and still lag behind


Or its a deal , done with understand to reverse enginre that ?lolzz
BTW in China public never interferes in govt s decisions ?


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## special

batmannow said:


> We have a big brother , he deals our cash , so we don't need to wory about it much ?lolzz
> Why u are so worried ?


big brother!!??? lol... wet dreams...
i am not worried. we are not pakistanis to be worried on these things.


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## Skywalker

Fandingo said:


> What I find to be extremely funny is that Pakistan with it's current budget can't even pay for 24 SU 35 + maintenance and upkeep without line of credit extended by Russia. (India will have 272 SU 30 MKI of which 40 - 60% will be converted to Super Sukhoi).
> 
> The Russian airforce is buying SU 35 in fewer numbers as the Su 30SM can be upgraded to FGFA standards, i.e. essentially a Su 35 v2.0. New engines, new radar, new avionics, composite restructuring, etc.
> 
> Also more money is being spent on FGFA program which Russia can't bankroll without India's money. Why would someone(Russia) loan money to another person(Pakistan) if the person himself needed money in the first place.
> 
> The message here is kindly pour cash into our FGFA and SU 30 modernisation programs or else we may think about doing something incredibly stupid to irritate you.


What i find funny here, since when an indian become a spoke person of pakistani finance ministry, i can feel the burt hurt with so many indians jumping in trying to figure out whats happening, imagine wether this thing meterialise or not we have given sleepless nights for loosers on the eastern border. Imagine so many new indians on this thread, that says it all. Weldone PAF.

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## batmannow

special said:


> read it carefully.. its is fox news.. not fake news.


Fox news is just a praopoganda news channel nothing more then the Indian channel in America ?lol
Still you cant find any official word on that ?right lolzz


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## Skywalker

special said:


> by your D**K measuring job?... sir


You dont have that either.

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## batmannow

special said:


> big brother!!??? lol... wet dreams...
> i am not worried. we are not pakistanis to be worried on these things.


You are so worried , that's why you are posting here , its a state of denial ?lolzz

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## Skywalker

Vyom said:


> good on you. may you strap a C4 to your arse one day and go to jannah..


Definitely wether its on my arse or somebodys arse...imagine how many arses it will destroy on the eastern border.

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## Fandingo

Skywalker said:


> What i find funny here, since when an indian become a spoke person of pakistani finance ministry, i can feel the burt hurt with so many indians jumping in trying to figure out whats happening, imagine wether this thing meterialise or not we have given sleepless nights for loosers on the eastern border. Imagine so many new indians on this thread, that says it all. Weldone PAF.



An airforce flying thirdhand F 16s and a Chinese reject light fighter is a loser of it's own accord. A country like Indonesia is applying for line of credit to buy Su 35. Pakistan can't even look beyond second hand trash for now. SU 35 lol! Well done indeed!


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## Secret Service

i cant understand. there is something definitely going on. i have few questions

how all of a sudden Russia is agreed on giving such hi tech equipment to Pakistan ? while we dont share healthy relations.

how Russia is going to deal with his all weather friend India ? is he going to ditch her which is not possible, in any case.

is it pressure tactics against India ? so that India cant go for other arms market.

if there is a deal then how Pakistan will afford ? from where the money comes ?

or it is just some sort of geo politics and anti US strategy ?

or part of greater Russian Chinese game/strategy ?


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## special

batmannow said:


> You are so worried , that's why you are posting here , its a state of denial ?lolzz


that is pakistani mentality.. not ours... we are posting here only for discussion.. not because i am worried.


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## Cry.me.a.River

gau8av said:


> that's the real endgame but Indigenization is still long way off, for now we're still heavily dependent on imports.




A public break with Russia, even if fallout is not acrimonious, would give a boost to indigenisation, both by forcing Army (rest want to move away from Russian maal anyway) away from Russian equipment and by improved technological and defence relations with Russian foes.

If you had not noticed, USA has neither increased aid, not offered Pakistan even F-16; on announcement that Pakistan is negotiating for Su-35 like they offered cobras when Pakistan tried to buy helis from Turkey and tested Chinese Aircraft. The reason is that this is a deal that US would want to go through as diplomatic benefit of this deal would be than loss of sale of some dozen Aircrafts. 

Pakistan, if had bought F-15SE, or even Chinese flanker copies, would have posed equal danger to India as Su-35 ,if bought, would cause (F-15Se would have cause more damage to India than Su-35).By buying flankers, they don't gain much as Chinese already have a copy of flankers.


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## Skywalker

Fandingo said:


> An airforce flying thirdhand F 16s and a Chinese reject light fighter is a loser of it's own accord. A country like Indonesia is applying for line of credit to buy Su 35. Pakistan can't even look beyond second hand trash for now. SU 35 lol! Well done indeed!


A country so many sukhois still fear the third hand f16, which are ready to rip your arse apart whenever is required, su 35 or not should i send you burnol. You can spread another one billion filthy butt hurt indians.

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## graphican

How many units of su-35 do you see coming? I sense some 24-36. What do you guys think?


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## abdulbarijan

special said:


> unlike you we accepts defeats. and no one in india is celebrating 1962 war as a victory day.



Which is why you suddenly started to celebrate a war in which a force 1/3rd your size forced you to the table and got a cease fire agreement .. good to know ..



> no indian members are saying that this deal is signed.. from very 1st post we are saying the same... "good luck with the deal"


.

The post I quoted of yours was atleast looking as if it was based on an assumption that the deal is signed .. based on how you were going for ... it will engage Pak-Fa etc. However I would agree, the negotiations are at an early stage ...



> the deal for j-31 will be over if PAF go for su-35 as the payment for russian jets will take majority of your defence budget. so buying j-31 will be really difficult for pakistan.
> 
> the russians lost the MMRCA because they give jet engines to pakistan, when the deal for engine(for JF-17) was signed by china and russia, it was known that mig 35 is out. some indian air force personals had also said that.
> india is going for western equipment is because russian hardware are maintenance nighmeir. and also the western equipment are better in quality and advanced than russian.



Ohh, so now that your moving away from Russian equipment its suddenly inferior and a maintenance nightmare ... maybe because Pakistan is in talks of buying one ... well there is a certain truth to the statement .. but then again Mig-21/23/27/29 and Su-30 MKI would more or less account for 70 odd percent of your fighting force ... so I guess nightmares for you right ...

As far as FC-31 and SU-35 thing goes ... PAF was exploring different options besides the -16's from the time MMRCA was announced ... that is why J-10B was in the talks for a long long time ... and FC-31 is post 2020 .. so don't get too deluded with "ohh they cant purchase 2 aircrafts at the same time" -- because the purchase won't occur at the same time ... and Pakistan has already announced a 5th gen purchase project , even if there is some truth to what you say .. PAF would be more inclined to get its hands on FC-31 ..

So please continue to live in the dreams of such and such cant happen because of our economy because the pakistani economy is known to turn around really fast provided a little stability .. which the country is getting .. In 1999 we were nearly broke and the time frame around 2003-2007 we were doing great ..

Lastly, India was punishing Russia over giving Pakistan the engines ?? ... so if France had gone through with the JFT deal ... Rafale wouldn't have been selected ??  -- but then again guess what, the french were talking about reviving the JFT deal because of the stalls in the MMRCA .. and the Ruskies that you "punished" are in negotiations with us for their most advanced jet today ... So .. the only thing you've managed to do up until now is self harm ...

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## Mani2020

batmannow said:


> Or its a deal , done with understand to reverse enginre that ?lolzz
> BTW in China public never interferes in govt s decisions ?



Look what did happen with su-27 ..initial plan was for much larger numbers but then the plan was halted and the world witnessed chinese j-11s with alot of fuss from russian side even some of their official claiming to ban military exports to china and raising issue at international level.... Reverse engineering is what China is good at may it be mig series in past or flanker today .... And yes it will help PAF too significantly in terms of multiplying paf capabilities and giving a strategic advantage so the outcome here is not only reverse engineering but also strategic move which will help all parties...
Russia needs money....China needs more insight into latest flanker...Pakistan needs teeth to keep india at bay while also having an option to go deep...win win

Irrespective of the fact that their public interferes in their decisions or not but the fact is no country would like to give an image of its locally produced equipment (which by the way comprise of major part of their modernization program) as something which is inferior or sub standard.

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## Windjammer

Abu Namr said:


> @Windjammer
> i just check the prices Su-35 (65 Million) and Rafale (67.5 Million)
> Why Pakistan not going to purchase some Rafale off the shelves quickly to give India a lasting heartburn.


Not sure if the price figures are correct since elsewhere i read Rafale to be in the region of 80 million.
In any case, in the past PAF had a look at both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale.
The then PAF airchief even had test flown a Typhoon but nicely declined it. Perhaps it never met or suited PAF's doctrine.

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## Cry.me.a.River

batmannow said:


> So ,.cool then keep waiting for 5 more years when you really not much needed Russia for spares & amuonation supplies from Russia ?
> Sorry but whole of your navy also is made of.russians & will you retire all of it in 5 years too ?lolzz



India does not need any spare and supply for Mig-27 which it would be retiring by end of next year ;neither does it need "Russian" supply for MKI and Mig-21 for whom it is a certified OEM.

And LOL on Navy comment.Indian Navy is least dependent on Russia. There are some old Russian ships in Indian Navy, but India manufactures all its ships at home and has been doing that for nearly a decade. Only SSK are bought from abroad and those are French in origin.




Ranasikander said:


> The number of jaugars and mirage 2000 is nothing before russin jets inventory
> 
> Only mig 21 are near retirement and that too in 2020.
> 
> Mig 29, mig 27 and SU 30 MKIvwill remain the work horse of iaf.
> Rafale if ever inducted will be just 36. So iaf will remain russian origin even after 2 deacdes from now specially after PAKFA inductions.



All Mig 27s would be retired by next years end. Mig-21 would retire in next 5-7 years depending on progress in LCA.

There are nearly 160 Jaguars in IAF's service.

Apart from direct deal of 36, a separate RFI of 90 aircraft has been floated by GoI (if you are abreast with current affairs). This larger deal probably is cause of delay in signing (an off the shelf deal of 36 fighters is very easy to negotiate). 

In 10 years, Russians content in IAF would fall below 50% mainly due to induction of large number of LCA and also due to purchase from non-Russian actors.


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## Fandingo

Skywalker said:


> A country so many sukhois still fear the third hand f16, which are ready to rip your arse apart whenever is required, su 35 or not should i send you burnol. You can spread another one billion filthy butt hurt indians.



I just find it funny to see Pakistani media behave like North Korean media at times. Later even Russia released a press release rubbishing this "deal". No word since then. All this is to prepare ground work for Modi visit in december to Russia to finalize/negotiate FGFA and Super Sukhoi upgrade. We pay them cash, they tell you to take a hike off a short pier.

BTW in India , we use mederma or boroplus.


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## Skywalker

special said:


> lol.. you pakistanis are really fools..
> pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time.
> Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters???  now think who is in delusion.
> india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??
> 
> 
> russia is going to introduce pak fa in 2016. india will get it in 2018. by the time pakistan(if they order the SU-35) have su-35.
> 
> 
> no, like in 1971.


@Windjammer..can we get rid off this fool from this thread, the biggest fool of all indians representing a billion fools in our eastern border, how many more butt hurt indians we will have here just to derail this thread.


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## bananarepublic

i wold recommend India to not buy western weapons especially fighter jets there are a lot of political problems from the west which comes with it....!!!


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## Skywalker

Fandingo said:


> I just find it funny to see Pakistani media behave like North Korean media at times. Later even Russia released a press release rubbishing this "deal". No word since then. All this is to prepare ground work for Modi visit in december to Russia to finalize/negotiate FGFA and Super Sukhoi upgrade. We pay them cash, they tell you to take a hike off a short pier.
> 
> BTW in India , we use mederma or boroplus.


Ok which ever suite you, please use it otherwise burnol can be exported in a suffecient qunatity free of cost.


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## volatile

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck


Question is can you afford to loose Russia ?

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## Windjammer

Skywalker said:


> @Windjammer..can we get rid off this fool from this thread, the biggest fool of all indians representing a billion fools in our eastern border, how many more butt hurt indians we will have here just to derail this thread.


They say, if a monkey sees a banana in your hand, it starts making a racket swinging from trees and all to get attention, best to just enjoy the fruit and throw the skin towards the monkey.....some of these Indians should be dealt in a similar manner.
You can understand their butt hurt, after several decades, their Tejas still ends up getting dragged on a trailer while we now have four squadrons of JF-17 in operational flying. They dare not fly a single engine aircraft over their parade venue while our single engine JF-17 has been flown to UK, China, Turkey, Dubai and Paris. The so called mother of all deal for 126 jets is like an orphan child, half of their MKI fleet has operational issues and then the humiliation after recent exercise with RAF.
I mean even without mentioning the SU-35, you can throw so many Banana skins towards these losers.

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## GURU DUTT

volatile said:


> Question is can you afford to loose Russia ?


question is what will russia do 

do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35

tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project 

if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal 

im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK


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## Great Sachin

keep dreaming


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## GURU DUTT

graphican said:


> How many units of su-35 do you see coming? I sense some 24-36. What do you guys think?


question is what will russia do as pakistani internet fanboys want 

do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35

tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project 

if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal 

im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...ially-the-largest.398440/page-8#ixzz3mApygMiR


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## Great Sachin

volatile said:


> Question is can you afford to loose Russia ?


question is... Russia will make India angry for this tiny deal with Pakistan

Anyway....Keep Dreaming....


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## alee92nawaz

special said:


> who told you india have only these projects with russia. india is not going to sacrifice Brahmos or FGFA.. there are other deals
> 
> such as Ka 226 chopper deal, T-90ms, armata tank, ammunition for tanks, and many other...


Indian airforce is totally dependent on russia...
Mig 29/k
Mig 21
Su 30
Mig 27
Ammunition for aircraft
T-90 tanks as arjun bhai sb is failing like tejas lol...
Its infantry needs Russian support
Itsr navy is getting carrier from Russia
A submarine is on lease...
Where will bharat mata go eh?
U can buy from usa france israel etc n they cant sell few jets ir lets say just talk about it ?'
Its justva bharam that Russians wont go against India...btw they arm plaaf...n all of irs branches so already arm your enemies



GURU DUTT said:


> question is what will russia do
> 
> do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35
> 
> tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project
> 
> if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal
> 
> im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK


Lol india has no other option I has invested so much in t-50
It cant run...jai maata di

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## New World

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck





[Bregs] said:


> This deal will create strategic shift in Indian policy India to what level this remains to be seen. The official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.



do you know Russians feels that they have been betrayed by indian at a time when US, EU and its allies put harsh sanction on them and India is not leaving every single moment to tie knot with US and its allies..

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## Donatello

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck



Sachin, i think retirement suits your better.

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## GURU DUTT

alee92nawaz said:


> Indian airforce is totally dependent on russia...
> Mig 29/k
> Mig 21
> Su 30
> Mig 27
> Ammunition for aircraft
> T-90 tanks as arjun bhai sb is failing like tejas lol...
> Its infantry needs Russian support
> Itsr navy is getting carrier from Russia
> A submarine is on lease...
> Where will bharat mata go eh?
> U can buy from usa france israel etc n they cant sell few jets ir lets say just talk about it ?'
> Its justva bharam that Russians wont go against India...btw they arm plaaf...n all of irs branches so already arm your enemies
> 
> 
> Lol india has no other option I has invested so much in t-50
> It cant run...jai maata di



we are already into advance phase of finalising design for owr AMCA & AURA + do you know both Japan and USA want to sell there 5th gen fighters to india and india is already in talks with USA for EMALS & AAG with two squads of F-35C and a couple of tilt rotar based E-2D/E for owr IAC-2

and russia needs and trust india more than pakistan as india is currentlli the onli nation which is using russian SSN and in billions of $$s worth deals in nuclear power genration , subs , fighter jets , tanks and what not do you realli think russia will kiss good buy to all that just because pakistan wants to buy a couple of squads of su-35 from it ... anyway dear good luck


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## Great Sachin

New World said:


> do you know Russians feels that they have been betrayed by indian at a time when US, EU and its allies put harsh sanction on them and India is not leaving every single moment to tie knot with US and its allies..


so they will dump India and go with bankrupt Pakistan.....what a logic


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## Mr304_AJ

*Su-35S Flanker 'E' *is no doubt lethal War Machine. So, Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes too can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.
For PAF its Win, Win Situation regarding deal over Su-35.They are aiming to kill two birds with one stone...


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## Donatello

SpArK said:


> This deal is a possibility.
> 
> If YES , then it will be a game changer for PAF, as the jet and its variants are the best available in world today and Pakistan can neutralize any threat from Indian side with this formidable fighter.
> 
> If NO, then all the variants are old design Russian junk, with bad reputation, bad costs and better options are available from other countries like J-11 and *JF-17 can easily match Su-30 variants*.



Wait.....so the rumored SU35 sale to Pakistan has hit you so hard on the head, that you agree that JF-17s can match SU30?

Subhanallah! Kya baat hai!

Deal is not even complete yet, and Indians are showing excessive bipolar tendencies.



farhan_9909 said:


> Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.
> 
> So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem



SU35 per unit, does not and will not cost 100 Million USD......even with the weapons and armaments, it might come to less than that, because, a Russian Designer/Engineer makes no where near 100,000 USD per annum salary that his counterparts at Lockheed, Boeing or Dassault make.

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## RazorMC

Abu Namr said:


> And you trust Russians ? If in middle of war with India they stop spares for the Jets.


This is an important point and something that the PAF leadership would have given ample thought to.

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## $@rJen

Su-35 will never go to Pakistan... Russians are trolling Indians.

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## Muhammad Omar

Every thing will be clear on the Visit of ACM Sohail to Russia..... 

There are just talks now... nothing Concrete


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## Ragnar

FGFA/PAKFA is a joke. It will be best if China and Russia pool their resources to make a joint Russia-China fighter- capable of challenging US. India should exit this bad investment- don't know whose harebrained idea it was. Sukhois are a different matter, developed when Soviet military spending matched US spending. Russia has been limping since 91 and now it is in a death spiral.


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## GURU DUTT

sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35 will never go to Pakistan... Russians are trolling Indians.


per bhai they need yet another "friend" and since they have no choice they yet again shoot themselfs in foot again just keep watching abhi to aur bhaterre manazir dekhne ko baaki hain


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## alee92nawaz

Trisonics said:


> You obviously have no idea on how much we buy from Russia. India has decided not to put all of its eggs in one basket for sure but that does not mean Russia will stop getting sales from India. Russia and India have taken the defence deals one step ahead and looking to be partners or let me just say India wants to be a learning partner, such deals cost even more since some amount of learning and ToT takes place. Stop fooling yourself by talking about 1 paise and 5 paise when you don't get it at all. Ok so what else can Pak buy say after the SU-35 that can effectively replace Indian sales for Russia?
> 
> Please don't bring in warm waters and the fabled silk route, while being strategic for Russia too its not strategic enough for Russia to lose India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good analysis. If India does decide to sour its relationship with Russia it will be a velvet divorce meaning not one that will stop every deal between the two. Russia too knows it can still milk India for spares and it decides not to, it will further lose dollars which will be a double whammy! it's not as simple as Pakistanis see it here on this forum.
> 
> Let's assume Indo-Russian relations spiral downhill. Unlike Pakistan, India has multiple resources to re-instate airplanes of similar caliber. We currently have over or close to 200 SU 30MKI that can easily be reduced to 75 effectively while the rest can be canablized for spares until replacements arrive. Not a very good scenario but enough still while combined with our navy and army to keep any adventurism from Pakistan away.
> 
> Lastly, If Russia does so, it will signal to the world what its intentions are and put India in a space where several countries from the west will easily help. Very unlikely for long term friends but India will lose little in terms of its military edge against its only enemy, Pak.
> 
> Military aside something that Pakistanis never get is trade and economics. China or Russia do not think like Pakistan. Trade is very essential for the two and India is a huge growing market that Pakistan can never ever replace. Killing relations with India hence is never an option for Russia or China.
> 
> If push comes to shove India will decide to buy twice the number of squadrons you wish to at inflated cost just to deny you any advantages, you still think Russia will be interested? Sure, relations between Pak-Russia will continue to rise but Russia trying to replace India with Pakistan is sadly only a Pakistani dream.


Bro pak doesn't buy stuff in that way...
We buy inly for our minimum needs..
And u will use other mki fors spares ?
Do u knw that only 60% mki can fly at a time coxof different problems...n btw iaf will do same to migs mig 21 mig 27, 29 etc ? 70 mki dont pose any danger to pak in case of war..n I wasnt talking about war scenario I m just saying that india cant run from russia

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## Donatello

Bang Galore said:


> Without going into actual purchase issues, let me point out a problem with that line of thinking. If the defence budget is $8 billion, it would probably leave about $ 2-3 billion available for capital purchase, the rest having gone for expenses. That will then have to be divided by the three forces, the PA getting the largest portion. The actual amount available for the Air Force would be a small portion of that & that would be for all purchases, not just one. More likely that the government would have to add a separate component in the budget to manage such purchases.



Shut up fool.

Pakistan's defense budget is only for annual salaries, maintenance etc. All capital purchases are approved by MoD and MoF from separate funds, which would be a combination of forex reserves for up front partial payment and/or Eximp bank of the respective country, or it could Pakistan offering Russia something in return. Just like Air India went with the US EXIMP for financing it's purchase of 777/737 aircraft from Boeing.....which if paid in full, would be not affordable for a loss making entity like Air India.

There is absolutely no way that Russia is simply willing to offer SU35 to Pakistan just out of no where, unless Russia gains strategic something which has a value far greater than upsetting India and few billion USD worth of planes. That part is what i am interested in knowing, what is Pakistan giving up. Oil/Gas pipeline routes? But to where? Port rights for Russian Navy since Putin wants full involvement in Syria and middle east? Probably. Pissing off Americans in the process and forcing them to work with Russia.......sure.

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## $@rJen

GURU DUTT said:


> per bhai they need yet another "friend" and since they have no choice they yet again shoot themselfs in foot again just keep watching abhi to aur bhaterre manazir dekhne ko baaki hain



Ya.... The Chinese are also behind this Making Russians to sell weapons to Pakistan.. But we dind't mind when they are selling Mi's to pakistan which not a real threat... But Su-35 does.. If they reallying going to sell to Palistanis the reply from India will be so different which Russians Can't afford now.. we know its not really going to happen that's why even after Russians openly saying about the talks with Pakistan India didn't say anything against the deal.... The russians are looking for the attention.. well we'll see this deal's blockade in December when Modi goes to Russia.. and most probably the next gen Sub contracts will end up witht the russians.... and another Pakistanis will feel the pain of maintenance with Mi

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## Donatello

Great Sachin said:


> so they will dump India and go with bankrupt Pakistan.....what a logic



No, they will milk India and go with a golden opportunity called Pakistan.

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## Maarkhoor

RazorMC said:


> This is an important point and something that the PAF leadership would have given ample thought to.


yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> question is what will russia do
> 
> do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35
> 
> tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project
> 
> if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal
> 
> im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK



The problem with this analogy is that its not a simple business we're talking about ... It's an owner with a collection of different businesses ... Lets say Russia is Business A ... Now this good old/loyal customer A (India) ---- when he was poor, got all the stuff from this business .. Now that he is getting a bit wealthy .... he is now exploring his options going to a businesses which happens to be the direct rival and the one that orchestrated the fall of "business A" a few decades ago .. what's more ... this loyal customer instead of showing loyalty went with another option when it came to his biggest deal of products in his history of purchases ... this loyal customer is now also considering lowering the numbers of another done deal ....

In comes Customer B (pakistan) which can only buy a certain number of products.. lets go by your numbers .. just 1/10th of the Loyal Customer A ... but this "Customer B" offers a pathway to the business , in essence giving an opportunity to access different markets alot more cheaply, to help other businesses of the "Business A" ... and even though this customer was not preferred at first ... but is friend to a key ally ...

Hence the SU-35 deal if ( and there is a big IF) ... signed ... will only be a small link in a bigger chain of cooperation between Pakistan and Russia ... while India continues to explore different options in the west ... and is treated like another "big customer" and not as the previous "all weather friend" like it used to be ..


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Not sure if the price figures are correct since elsewhere i read Rafale to be in the region of 80 million.
> In any case, in the past PAF had a look at both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale.
> The then PAF airchief even had test flown a Typhoon but nicely declined it. Perhaps it never met or suited PAF's doctrine.



Sir i am not sure if Su35 per unit, should cost more than 60-80 million USD. We know that Russian hardware is comparatively cheaper than western products.

Remember the India was bankrupt and begging IMF in 1991......they went and bought M2K and Mig29....their Migs were considerably cheaper.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SpArK said:


> This deal is a possibility.
> 
> If YES , then it will be a game changer for PAF, as the jet and its variants are the best available in world today and Pakistan can neutralize any threat from Indian side with this formidable fighter.
> 
> If NO, then all the variants are old design Russian junk, with bad reputation, bad costs and better options are available from other countries like J-11 and JF-17 can easily match Su-30 variants.



Do you have tears in your eyes posting that ? 

Poor sparkie and his douchebagery.

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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> The problem with this analogy is that its not a simple business we're talking about ... It's an owner with a collection of different businesses ... Lets say Russia is Business A ... Now this good old/loyal customer A (India) ---- when he was poor, got all the stuff from this business .. Now that he is getting a bit wealthy .... he is now exploring his options going to a businesses which happens to be the direct rival and the one that orchestrated the fall of "business A" a few decades ago .. what's more ... this loyal customer instead of showing loyalty went with another option when it came to his biggest deal of products in his history of purchases ... this loyal customer is now also considering lowering the numbers of another done deal ....
> 
> In comes Customer B (pakistan) which can only buy a certain number of products.. lets go by your numbers .. just 1/10th of the Loyal Customer A ... but this "Customer B" offers a pathway to the business , in essence giving an opportunity to access different markets alot more cheaply, to help other businesses of the "Business A" ... and even though this customer was not preferred at first ... but is friend to a key ally ...
> 
> Hence the SU-35 deal if ( and there is a big IF) ... signed ... will only be a small link in a bigger chain of cooperation between Pakistan and Russia ... while India continues to explore different options in the west ... and is treated like another "big customer" and not as the previous "all weather friend" like it used to be ..


in short there is a big *IF* ..... cheers mate


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## $@rJen

Donatello said:


> No, they will milk India and go with a golden opportunity called Pakistan.



Yes Yes.... 2-3 billion is golden opportunity..

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## Blue Marlin

*more info on the su-35 realised from Janes*






The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

*The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.*

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told _IHS Jane's_ in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360


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## thesolar65

Russian know Pakistan does not have a dime to spare, but they are trolling India before Modi visit to US!!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

special said:


> lol.. you pakistanis are really fools..
> pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time.
> Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters???  now think who is in delusion.
> india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??
> 
> 
> russia is going to introduce pak fa in 2016. india will get it in 2018. by the time pakistan(if they order the SU-35) have su-35.
> 
> 
> no, like in 1971.



Su-35 isn't a 5th gen fighter ... Pak is already looking at Chinese J-31 for the 5th generation fighter... Apart from that our Air Chief has already stated that PAF is looking in both East n west for a 5th gen fighter... East being China.. West most probably Turkey (Join their TFX Program) or USA...

If su -35 is chosen it will not serve as our counter balance for a 5th gen fughter but as a long strike aircraft !


Also so called Pak Fa is still tears from production ! Google it..

As for our current defence budget it's around 8 billion .. Augmented by a few billion dollar CSF and supported by other sources like FFGs..

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## batmannow

Mani2020 said:


> Look what did happen with su-27 ..initial plan was for much larger numbers but then the plan was halted and the world witnessed chinese j-11s with alot of fuss from russian side even some of their official claiming to ban military exports to china and raising issue at international level.... Reverse engineering is what China is good at may it be mig series in past or flanker today .... And yes it will help PAF too significantly in terms of multiplying paf capabilities and giving a strategic advantage so the outcome here is not only reverse engineering but also strategic move which will help all parties...
> Russia needs money....China needs more insight into latest flanker...Pakistan needs teeth to keep india at bay while also having an option to go deep...win win
> 
> Irrespective of the fact that their public interferes in their decisions or not but the fact is no country would like to give an image of its locally produced equipment (which by the way comprise of major part of their modernization program) as something which is inferior or sub standard.


If that country is not having SU-37 & SU -47S for itself yes they be worried about what the buyer will be doing with their least potential product to them ?
In Russia case they have more then what you can imagine ?
By doing that they are getting more funds & new strategic partners who can led them into middle east worsning situation ?
So it all win win !


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## Mutakalim

Foxtrot Delta said:


> what the heck? i know.for a fact that UAE baught f-16E/F for 34 million dollars each, how can a pakistani block 52+ aircraft which is less capable and has less fancy avionics and engine be of 65 million dollars? thats the unit cost of Su-35 rafale! and when i.say unit cost it does not include weapons spare parts or fuel costs, i guoted unit cost from.the manufacturers if we.change components which PAF mostly does the price can shoot up. anyways thats always welcome and good to improve things up. im sticking with my point f-16 A/B unit cost 17 million dollars. and by the way india always buys weapons for 25% more cost as compared to russian air force i dont know why may be its policy.


Could you please change your fonts style. Seem very odd or maybe you trying to seek attention.


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## $@rJen

thesolar65 said:


> Russian know Pakistan does not have a dime to spare, but they are trolling India before Modi visit to US!!



There's might be another reason too....

See Russians lost MMRCA deal they're not going to tolerate/manage if they loose Next Gen Sub deal.. This trolling is going to be the test bed for that deal... if we fail to give that deal to th Russians.. then they're going to Screw us in this way... we can't do anything about it.

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## batmannow

Cry.me.a.River said:


> India does not need any spare and supply for Mig-27 which it would be retiring by end of next year ;neither does it need "Russian" supply for MKI and Mig-21 for whom it is a certified OEM.
> 
> And LOL on Navy comment.Indian Navy is least dependent on Russia. There are some old Russian ships in Indian Navy, but India manufactures all its ships at home and has been doing that for nearly a decade. Only SSK are bought from abroad and those are French in origin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Mig 27s would be retired by next years end. Mig-21 would retire in next 5-7 years depending on progress in LCA.
> 
> There are nearly 160 Jaguars in IAF's service.
> 
> Apart from direct deal of 36, a separate RFI of 90 aircraft has been floated by GoI (if you are abreast with current affairs). This larger deal probably is cause of delay in signing (an off the shelf deal of 36 fighters is very easy to negotiate).
> 
> In 10 years, Russians content in IAF would fall below 50% mainly due to induction of large number of LCA and also due to purchase from non-Russian actors.


So what you mean is India is willing to be a air force of 400 fighters ,mainly su*27 & 30s & what about its navy ?lolzz
Ohh since when India is manufacturing subs , & its carriers ?lolzz
Wakeup before , whole of your military will be torn apart ?lolzz


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## Bang Galore

Donatello said:


> Shut up fool.
> 
> Pakistan's defense budget is only for annual salaries, maintenance etc. All capital purchases are approved by MoD and MoF from separate funds, which would be a combination of forex reserves for up front partial payment and/or Eximp bank of the respective country, or it could Pakistan offering Russia something in return.



_Helloooooooo genius_... Next time read the post very slowly, also read the post to which it was a reply to. The poster made the comment about the purchase & connected it to the defence budget. Also since you have much difficult with comprehension, I did say it would have to be financed from a separate budget which is pretty much what you said.

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## New World

Great Sachin said:


> so they will dump India and go with bankrupt Pakistan.....what a logic


in the harsh sanctions and low oil prices Russians need money no matter from where it comes.. Russians are also trying to selling su-35 to china, Indonesia, Venezuela, Vietnam 



Muhammad Omar said:


> Every thing will be clear on the Visit of ACM Sohail to Russia.....
> 
> There are just talks now... nothing Concrete



and from when Pakistani armed forces announced their plans clearly??


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## RazorMC

Abu Namr said:


> yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
> 1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
> 2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
> at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35


That resembles what I'm thinking as well.
I do not believe that the Flanker is coming to PAF for more than one reason. Neither is the JSF for that matter.

Our choice of air superiority would have to be Chinese to make the procurement feasible and possible. I would rather see the Su-35, but it just doesn't seem happening at this time.

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## Ind4Ever

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.



Partially correct !!!Truth is Russia mounting pressure on India but not for Su30 but PakFa and Su 35 . Pakistan just playing its role for more Mi35 helicopters of for current 4 . That's the deal !! Soon US will cancel Aid and Military aid which will not be used for anti terrorism operation as Pakistan already sided with China to the point of no return !!!

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## Bang Galore

Abu Namr said:


> yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
> 1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
> 2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
> *at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35*



That bit of analysis is wrong. If India did buy more Russian jets & that prevented Russia from supplying the jets to Pakistan, there is no reason for the Americans to indulge you since you are left with no cards to play.

Even the point No.2 made is wrong. The Americans would like nothing mre than the Russians to damage relations with India. They are directly in line to benefit from any rupture in the relationship between India & Russia. Point No.1 makes the most sense.

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## GURU DUTT

Mark Sien said:


> Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?
> 
> Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia
> 
> By Bilal Khan
> 
> 19 September 2015
> 
> It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.
> 
> For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.
> 
> This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.
> 
> *How will Russia get this deal past India?*
> 
> The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against whatever Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.
> 
> *Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?*
> 
> Another, increasingly oft-cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “_coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” _According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as a liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.
> 
> Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition of the U.S, which could benefit Russia and China in Central Asia. However, Russia and China are not expansionary powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from the U.S. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s apparent efforts.
> 
> In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash and a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).
> 
> *Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?*
> 
> This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities within its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.
> 
> Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):
> 
> _The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively._​
> It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?
> 
> In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:
> 
> _The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned._
> 
> _… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” _DefenseNews​
> In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:
> 
> _The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. _IHS Jane’s 360​
> Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?
> 
> It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.
> 
> In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.
> 
> In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.
> 
> *Managing Expectations*
> 
> Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors, such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath), would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.


man this has to be 7th thread on su-35s buy hub bul watan pakistanies.... good luck

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## Indus Pakistan

It is a terrible* mistake *to buy these jets. From* logistical* and* maintenace* to have so many differant jets from differant countries is a nighmare. If we go ahead we would have Chinese, French,American and Russian jets.

There is another point that needs to be kept in mind. The next jet PAF should looking to upgrade is a full blown* stealth aircraft.* I think we can soldier on with what we have until down the road we are in a position to move to upgrading to stealth fighters.

On the other hand buying military hardware can sometimes be manifestation of strategic *placement*. So this might represent the consummation of the change in Russian and Pak relation as we move toward the emerging China-Russ-Pak triangle.

Conversely India is moving toward US-Isreal-India triangle.

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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> in short there is a big *IF* ..... cheers mate



There is an "if" with the deal .. but that too depends on who you talk to ... I personally support the induction from a more trusted supplier ... depends on how PAF looks at it ... what they think the jet can do for them etc etc... In short too early to say anything with conviction .... 

the significance of this revelation though, is that .... a serious cooperation between Pakistan-Russia is confirmed ...


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## Blue Marlin

ito said:


> Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.


it's actually the other way around. the su-35 is more advanced than the su-30mki which will infuriate india if Pakistan were to have such a jet. as Pakistan will have a more advanced jet than india until the t-50 arrives. its meant to push india to purchase the su-35, before Pakistan get's it. and in the same time Pakistan want's it because it is in need of a long range heavy jet and a su-35 fits the bill, and is perfect to enhance defence ties between Pakistan and russia. as they say the ball is in india's court.


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## kamrananvaar

Abu Namr said:


> And you trust Russians ? If in middle of war with India they stop spares for the Jets.


Its not a situation of this or that. I say trust no one but you have tested usa, and every time they have royally screwed you. During the cold war the mullah said dont go to russia you will be brain washed and turned into an athiest which defies logic as 6 of the states were muslim majority in soviet ussr. Russia did offer fully paid scholarships , nobody went . Wheras we could have gained so much needed higher education . 
The largest industry you have steel mills in karachi was given by russia. Russia has always stood by its allies ie india. 
The irony is we could have had a functional port and it also linked to russia , the infrastructure built by them . 
Lets say that was a missed oppurtunity and fast forward to post 911 america needed access to afghanistan and you could have ASKED for super highway which was peanuts instead you let them use your already dilipidated system and screw it more . And now you keep on harping about CEPC . Which we could have had ages ago . 
About your question they will stop spares in middle of war with india , that already happened with your master the usa!!!!


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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> There is an "if" with the deal .. but that too depends on who you talk to ... I personally support the induction from a more trusted supplier ... depends on how PAF looks at it ... what they think the jet can do for them etc etc... In short too early to say anything with conviction ....
> 
> the significance of this revelation though, is that .... a serious cooperation between Pakistan-Russia is confirmed ...


there is nothing wrong with cooperation between russia and pakistan or russia and india or russia and china but every nation makes its decissions on where it tends to make most profit without loosing any of its good terms with other potential "friends" .... russia knows pakistans dealings with USA and more importantlli ukrien and there is an pakistani engle aswell with chechen rebels ... do you think russia will ignoare all that .... if you do think like that good luck


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## Death Adder

Atanz said:


> It is a terrible* mistake *to buy these jets. From* logistical* and* maintenace* to have so many differant jets from differant countries is a nighmare. If we go ahead we would have Chinese, French,American and Russian jets.
> 
> There is another point that needs to be kept in mind. The next jet PAF should looking to upgrade is a full blown* stealth aircraft.* I think we can soldier on with what we have until down the road we are in a position to move to upgrading to stealth fighters.
> 
> On the other hand buying military hardware can sometimes be manifestation of strategic *placement*. So this might represent the consummation of the change in Russian and Pak relation as we move toward the emerging China-Russ-Pak triangle.
> 
> Conversely India is moving toward US-Isreal-India triangle.



I don't think so. Firstly, PAF is going to retire large number of ageing Mirages and F7's in coming years, managing two platforms logistically and from maintenance point of view is more complicated than one twin engine aircraft.

Secondly we need long range, heaver payload aircraft for deep strike missions and to secure sea lines of communication so SU-35 is our best bet.

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## Maarkhoor

kamrananvaar said:


> with your master the usa!!!!


Pls mind your language. if i differ from your point of view its not mean you come down from level of manners and respect. you don't know me so layoff.

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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> there is nothing wrong with cooperation between russia and pakistan or russia and india or russia and china but every nation makes its decissions on where it tends to make most profit without loosing any of its good terms with other potential "friends" .... russia knows pakistans dealings with USA and more importantlli ukrien and there is an pakistani engle aswell with chechen rebels ... do you think russia will ignoare all that .... if you do think like that good luck



Correct ... but you tend to forget that India itself is now dealing with US and France .. Russia wouldn't want to loose a loyal customer ... that loyal customer itself is complaining about the quality of Russian products and moving towards other options ...
Hence there is talk for such and such ... imagine waking up with China's FM going " China in talks with Indian officials to provide J-11D" -- this is a similar case -- where two nations formerly undeclared enemies are now involved in talks over among the most advanced jets in service today ...


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## M.SAAD

I hope this news is true, Su-35 is a 4.5 Gen Beast of a fighter .


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## I M Sikander

Great Sachin said:


> keep dreaming


I can understand the reality of pak russia relations is hitting hard on indians balls.


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## saima naaz

i say just one thing that i proud to be a pakistan

i say just one thing that i proud to be a pakistan

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## ganesh623

Pakistan have 2 more months for this mental dreaming, until putin comes to india in december and show middle finger to pakistan


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## Cry.me.a.River

batmannow said:


> Ohh since when India is manufacturing subs , & its carriers ?lolzz



SSKs are French and SSBN is Indian.

India is constructing an Aircraft carrier from ground up, something which even Russia has not done (after fall of Soviet).

Vikrant-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India’s First Vikrant-Class Aircraft Carrier To Be Commissioned By 2019 | Free Press Journal

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## zebra7

Wallekum Assalam. Thanks for all the pics and information about radar range, weapons, dogfight video with F35.
Janaab is there any confirmed news on the sale of Su 35 or we are just beating the bush because if the news is confirmed for the talk is it necessary that the deal will takes place and if the deal does not take place and Indians make the deal with the Russian for the Su35 than the problem would be.

*All our Chanting, all ITTSII BINNI DOT BIKINI and all uploads of pics, video and Mashallah...... would be waisted and these Indians members don't have to do anything or to say anything and we will be back with JF17.*

Moral of the Story don't speak too loud before the final call bakki aap log jayda samajdhar hai.

Khuda Haffiz.


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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> Correct ... but you tend to forget that India itself is now dealing with US and France .. Russia wouldn't want to loose a loyal customer ... that loyal customer itself is complaining about the quality of Russian products and moving towards other options ...
> Hence there is talk for such and such ... imagine waking up with China's FM going " China in talks with Indian officials to provide J-11D" -- this is a similar case -- where two nations formerly undeclared enemies are now involved in talks over among the most advanced jets in service today ...


but what you forget is the first rule on modern international policy if A & B are enemies and A dealing with C, D &E while B was always in good repo with C&D and wants good realtions now with E whome B was always at loggerheads but some how manages to break ice with E doesnt means A will stop dealing with E or for that matter C & D or vice versa.... in short in todays diplomacy doesnt means that my friend should become my enemies enemy or vice versa .... if you know what i mean


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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> but what you forget is the first rule on modern international policy if A & B are enemies and A dealing with C, D &E while B was always in good repo with C&D and wants good realtions now with E whome B was always at loggerheads but some how manages to break ice with E doesnt means A will stop dealing with E or for that matter C & D or vice versa.... in short in todays diplomacy doesnt means that my friend should become my enemies enemy or vice versa .... if you know what i mean



oh dear you have lots of patience in engaging

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## Viper0011.

WishLivePak said:


> and FYI, hold your horses. Apart from US, no one is ready for 6th gen. *Expect in 2025 that we're "working" on it and they come out in 2030-2035*.



Who is working on it?? And the US is about to show case the firs trial version of the 6th gen fighter - bomber project in the next few months if not weeks.


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## zebra7

batmannow said:


> I don't care what India is going for since past 14 years on papers , its still incomplete & not practical ?
> What we have is a potentialy best of the top fighter jets in the world , & when its manufacturing company is telling me that its way more fast ,accurate , then what my enemy.has ?
> I'm going to go get it ?
> Quantity is not an issue ,we never thought to match it with anyone ?
> If we can just take out any intruding air force from sea front thats it ?
> Now with all that said , there is nothing to satisfy a Coward & dejected mind ,which is affected & impressed by the enemy prapoganda ?


But your quote seems more like propaganda Janab.

I asked some questioned regarding something else and you are showing me video of su35 and f35 either india is going for f35 and pakistan su35 or vice versa. You are an elite member pls stick to the question i asked or keep quite. There must me lot of smart pakistani or indian member who can answer my query.


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## karan.1970

So no J-10 from China ?

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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> But your quote seems more like propaganda Janab.
> 
> I asked some questioned regarding something else and you are showing me video of su35 and f35 either india is going for f35 and pakistan su35 or vice versa. You are an elite member pls stick to the question i asked or keep quite. There must me lot of smart pakistani or indian member who can answer my query.


Stop stupid questions , your asked questions been answered in the video with great detail rather you don't have sufficiant hearing or your eyes stick to your nose in any case its not my problem ?
So take a chill pill?
Video has all the operational details of the worlds top fighter jets pitched in a hypothetical dog fights , exploring all of their given options to each other against or being unified force ?
It includes $u30 ,$u35 , mig 35 , f35 , raptor , Rafael even the SAMS role been discussed if you can't get it then , take your dam head to any wall you like ?
Just bang it !


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## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Stop stupid questions , your asked questions been answered in the video with great detail rather you don't have sufficiant hearing or your eyes stick to your nose in any case its not my problem ?
> So take a chill pill?
> Video has all the operational details of the worlds top fighter jets pitched in a hypothetical dig fights , exploring all of their given options to each other against or being unified force ?


Sorry sir, but politely I want to say these high tech technical capability is valid for the capable and high tech netcentric, high intensity, future warfare but i was asking for simple question which can be answer by anyone who have some defence knowledge rather been scientific information and techno knowledge.


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Sorry sir, but politely I want to say these high tech technical capability is valid for the capable and high tech netcentric, high intensity, future warfare but i was asking for simple question which can be answer by anyone who have some defence knowledge rather been scientific information and techno knowledge.


Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
Russian DFM already told the whole world that yes its in process ?
So what the hell you want more ?


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## batmannow

Cry.me.a.River said:


> SSKs are French and SSBN is Indian.
> 
> India is constructing an Aircraft carrier from ground up, something which even Russia has not done (after fall of Soviet).
> 
> Vikrant-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> India’s First Vikrant-Class Aircraft Carrier To Be Commissioned By 2019 | Free Press Journal


So India will be waging a war in 2019 or will answer any aggression from any one in 2019 ?
Even if we take wikipedia thing ?lolzz



GURU DUTT said:


> but what you forget is the first rule on modern international policy if A & B are enemies and A dealing with C, D &E while B was always in good repo with C&D and wants good realtions now with E whome B was always at loggerheads but some how manages to break ice with E doesnt means A will stop dealing with E or for that matter C & D or vice versa.... in short in todays diplomacy doesnt means that my friend should become my enemies enemy or vice versa .... if you know what i mean


Who told you that ?Lol
Maybe it was 30 years ago , but sory Russia isn't soviet any more , just accept you can't stop Russia Pakistan $u 35 deal & your edge in the air & in the seas will be gone forever ?lolzz
Right now its time to teach India a lesson ?lolzz



karan.1970 said:


> So no J-10 from China ?


No worries later , China & Pakistan its like ghar ki baat hai ?lolzz


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## batmannow

Death Adder said:


> I don't think so. Firstly, PAF is going to retire large number of ageing Mirages and F7's in coming years, managing two platforms logistically and from maintenance point of view is more complicated than one twin engine aircraft.
> 
> Secondly we need long range, heaver payload aircraft for deep strike missions and to secure sea lines of communication so SU-35 is our best bet.


& as China has more over hauling capabilities of flankers & spears that's the best we can get at least we dont need to be worried that in a short war like kargilll , we won't be able to fly our super machine called F-16 dam it ?
With su-35 nothing like that will happen !


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> but what you forget is the first rule on modern international policy if A & B are enemies and A dealing with C, D &E while B was always in good repo with C&D and wants good realtions now with E whome B was always at loggerheads but some how manages to break ice with E doesnt means A will stop dealing with E or for that matter C & D or vice versa.... in short in todays diplomacy doesnt means that my friend should become my enemies enemy or vice versa .... if you know what i mean



But then again ... A tried many times to sabotage deals of B with C & E. Yet A's trusted friend E even with the rocky past with B, still provided B with business because A was trying to get in to more friendlier terms with C & D ... E on the other hand can't stand C & D ... and has been an all weather friend of A's ... but A now has deep pockets and decides to do business with C & D ... E being quite the game player decides to break the ice with B and they start negotiations for X & Y ... A is now just another big client ... not the all weather friend it once was ...

Bottom line ... In the world of diplomacy "my friend's enemy is not my enemy" only becomes viable once a friend p!sses off the other by using this philosophy first ... and still expecting the other friend to do the bidding it used to ... I mean after all the screams about the negotiations ... and the "friend" giving you the pacifier of " don't worry .. we know you won't get jealous of this" is a reaction to something ... if you know what I mean ...

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## araz

mourning sage said:


> On the contrary, Russia I believe is thinking to much into the future. Right now Pakistan doesn't have a lot of money but by giving Pakistan favourable payment terms, they are cementing their position in CPEC


The gawadar project is a life line both for China and Russia. Once the project builds up yòu will have a lot of traffic from these countries into Gawadar. Security of this region is paramount to the security of their assetts in future. But the SU35S deal probbably goes further than that. Their is indication of chinese support behind it. The engine on the SU35 is what yhe Chinese maybe afterand one way around it is to buy a small quantity themselves a couple of squadrons for PAFand have rights to build engines under licence. For PAF it maybe a good deal 0rovided the plane has an AESA,has depot level maintenance facilities inhouse and agreements to use armaments from other sources. The Russians maybe looking at both the financial and political implications of the deal and it makes sense.
The indian factor has been hyped about but is nothing more than astorm in a teacup. India ismmore dependant on the Russians than the other way around. The SCO membership also opens doors for Pakistan which the Indians may not be able to deny. 
Still a long way to go so lets see how this pans out.
Araz

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## ZAC1

russia is not going to sell high tech equipment to pakistan , they only want india back on table but mean while during this game pakistan will get some stuff like choppers,rpg 29

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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> But then again ... A tried many times to sabotage deals of B with C & E. Yet A's trusted friend E even with the rocky past with B, still provided B with business because A was trying to get in to more friendlier terms with C & D ... E on the other hand can't stand C & D ... and has been an all weather friend of A's ... but A now has deep pockets and decides to do business with C & D ... E being quite the game player decides to break the ice with B and they start negotiations for X & Y ... A is now just another big client ... not the all weather friend it once was ...
> 
> *Bottom line ... In the world of diplomacy "my friend's enemy is not my enemy" only becomes viable once a friend p!sses off the other by using this philosophy first *... and still expecting the other friend to do the bidding it used to ... I mean after all the screams about the negotiations ... and the "friend" giving you the pacifier of " don't worry .. we know you won't get jealous of this" is a reaction to something ... if you know what I mean ...


exactly my point sirji ... its all about short and long term geopolitical gains and mutualy benefical realtion ships


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## I S I

Where is the god damn OP post?


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Who told you that ?Lol
> Maybe it was 30 years ago , but sory Russia isn't soviet any more , just accept you can't stop Russia Pakistan $u 35 deal & your edge in the air & in the seas will be gone forever ?lolzz
> Right now its time to teach India a lesson ?lolzz



and you think just because india is buying western stuff which it always did like china always did with russia ... you think russia will break away or will deliberatelli jeopardise all its interests with india when it fulli knows what you did with chechen rebels and your past dealings with ukrein and indian stand for russia on cremia crisis.... think again


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## Dalit

Mark Sien said:


> Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?
> 
> Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia
> 
> By Bilal Khan
> 
> 19 September 2015
> 
> It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.
> 
> For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.
> 
> This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.
> 
> *How will Russia get this deal past India?*
> 
> The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against whatever Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.
> 
> *Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?*
> 
> Another, increasingly oft-cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “_coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” _According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as a liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.
> 
> Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition of the U.S, which could benefit Russia and China in Central Asia. However, Russia and China are not expansionary powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from the U.S. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s apparent efforts.
> 
> In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash and a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).
> 
> *Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?*
> 
> This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities within its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.
> 
> Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):
> 
> _The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively._​
> It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?
> 
> In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:
> 
> _The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned._
> 
> _… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” _DefenseNews​
> In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:
> 
> _The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. _IHS Jane’s 360​
> Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?
> 
> It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.
> 
> In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.
> 
> In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.
> 
> *Managing Expectations*
> 
> Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors, such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath), would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.



This is truly an excellent piece of analysis.



ZAC1 said:


> russia is not going to sell high tech equipment to pakistan , they only want india back on table but mean while during this game pakistan will get some stuff like choppers,rpg 29



LOL we'll see man. You people said the same thing about RD-93 engines... We all know how that turned out. Is India really going to come back to the table? LMAO India is in bed with US/West. They ain't coming back and everyone knows it including the Russians. You and the rest will have to deal with the fact that Pakistan, Russia and China nexus is a reality.

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## coffee_cup

Mark Sien said:


> Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?



I am quite sure, it is to troll India.

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## Muhammad Omar

ganesh623 said:


> Pakistan have 2 more months for this mental dreaming, until putin comes to india in december and show middle finger to pakistan



And what if Putin Shows India 2 Middle Fingers you know India Air force is dependent on Russian Spares ... your MiG 29 Su-30MKI and other wants spares from Russia to operate... Even If Russia and Pakistan Finalize the Deal of Su-35 would you really think that India will back of From all the deals just like that... Even if India does that who's gonna give India Spares of the Current fleet of Yours? Still now Half of your MKI are grounded facing repair issues ..... You guys Bitch just like same when the NEWS came about the Mi-35 Helicopters that India wont let that happen Russia will not give you Mi-35 visit any thread about Mi-35 deal.... Even your Government did protest to Russians and asked them not to give Pakistan Mi-35 But Russia Showed Middle Finger to India Just like that.... Did India Cancelled all of it's deals with Russia? i don't think so... You guys are just making fools of yourself here...

You guys bitch all day here about Russia won't give you this Russia won't give you that You cannot afford it Where is the money Russia won't give these on Soft Loans LOL

You Bhindians think that Soft loan is almost equal to Free or Gift.... Soft loan is payment can be extended into few more years it's not it's coming free  

Pakistan is not gonna buy Su-35 in Large numbers like you guys are thinking only 2 squads will come if the talking get materialized that 36-40 jets most probably....

ACM Sohail is going to Russia next month And Putin in coming to India in December a lot of thing can happen in between that....

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## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Russian DFM already told the whole world that yes its in process ?
> So what the hell you want more ?



Sir I fully believe that Su35 is coming to Pakistan only few questions regarding Su35.


1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.

2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin

3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.

4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.

5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.



araz said:


> The gawadar project is a life line both for China and Russia. Once the project builds up yòu will have a lot of traffic from these countries into Gawadar. Security of this region is paramount to the security of their assetts in future. But the SU35S deal probbably goes further than that. Their is indication of chinese support behind it. The engine on the SU35 is what yhe Chinese maybe afterand one way around it is to buy a small quantity themselves a couple of squadrons for PAFand have rights to build engines under licence. For PAF it maybe a good deal 0rovided the plane has an AESA,has depot level maintenance facilities inhouse and agreements to use armaments from other sources. The Russians maybe looking at both the financial and political implications of the deal and it makes sense.
> The indian factor has been hyped about but is nothing more than astorm in a teacup. India ismmore dependant on the Russians than the other way around. The SCO membership also opens doors for Pakistan which the Indians may not be able to deny.
> Still a long way to go so lets see how this pans out.
> Araz


Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.

1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered 
via wiretransfer.
6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.
8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.


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## GURU DUTT

Muhammad Omar said:


> And what if Putin Shows India 2 Middle Fingers you know India Air force is dependent on Russian Spares ... your MiG 29 Su-30MKI and other wants spares from Russia to operate... Even If Russia and Pakistan Finalize the Deal of Su-35 would you really think that India will back of From all the deals just like that... Even if India does that who's gonna give India Spares of the Current fleet of Yours? Still now Half of your MKI are grounded facing repair issues ..... You guys Bitch just like same when the NEWS came about the Mi-35 Helicopters that India wont let that happen Russia will not give you Mi-35 visit any thread about Mi-35 deal.... Even your Government did protest to Russians and asked them not to give Pakistan Mi-35 But Russia Showed Middle Finger to India Just like that.... Did India Cancelled all of it's deals with Russia? i don't think so... You guys are just making fools of yourself here...
> 
> You guys bitch all day here about Russia won't give you this Russia won't give you that You cannot afford it Where is the money Russia won't give these on Soft Loans LOL
> 
> You Bhindians think that Soft loan is almost equal to Free or Gift.... Soft loan is payment can be extended into few more years it's not it's coming free
> 
> Pakistan is not gonna buy Su-35 in Large numbers like you guys are thinking only 2 squads will come if the talking get materialized that 36-40 jets most probably....
> 
> ACM Sohail is going to Russia next month And Putin in coming to India in December a lot of thing can happen in between that....


nanhe rajkumar as they say dont count your chickens till they hatch ... baat samjh me aayee ki nahi


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## Muhammad Omar

New World said:


> in the harsh sanctions and low oil prices Russians need money no matter from where it comes.. Russians are also trying to selling su-35 to china, Indonesia, Venezuela, Vietnam
> 
> 
> 
> and from when Pakistani armed forces announced their plans clearly??



There's a thread running on it It's not that i posted this it was a senior member do the search


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## Muhammad Omar

GURU DUTT said:


> nanhe rajkumar as they say dont count your chickens till they hatch ... baat samjh me aayee ki nahi



true... India Counted 126 Rafale Eggs and just 36 hatched rest were dumped in the garbage bin

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## zebra7

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *Air superiority aircraft is the terminology you are looking for.*


No Su35 is a long range strike fighter and the terminology should be main strike fighter


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## GURU DUTT

Muhammad Omar said:


> true... India Counted 126 Rafale Eggs and just 36 hatched rest were dumped in the garbage bin


no we never counted 126 rafales we negociated on them but frenchies in time got way too greedy so we scrapped the orignal deal and proposed to buy 36 off the shelf from them while negociating with them for further 90+ rafales and bring down there cost with making them in india by offering france 49% stake in the new venture .... looks like you dont know anything about "baniya budhi" dont worry you will know shortlli and celebrate and mock indians when you have signed a deal with russians for su-35 or at least russians confirming they are agreed to sell you su-35 till then its all empty chest thumping and fancy rumours to make give some hope and things to rejoice for all hub bul watan pakistanies .... but the main issue is money .... money talks bull**** walks

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## Secret Service

Ranasikander said:


> I can understand the reality of pak russia relations is hitting hard on indians balls.


They dont have balls ... correction

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## Maarkhoor

quro said:


> There's will be a lot of face saving to do if this deal does not go through


Ooh you made this ID just to post this

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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> exactly my point sirji ... its all about short and long term geopolitical gains and mutualy benefical realtion ships



Exactly, I would agree to that ... but this revelation does signify one thing ... while India remains an important customer to the Russians ... things have changed in the last 15 years from 
*
"Indo-Russian Dosti Jindabaad!"* to

*"Russia ... Please don't sell RD-93 engines to Pakistan"* to

*"Cmon Russia, what's with the MI-35's "* to

*"oh okay ... just a few MI-35's"* to 

*" Whoaa whoaa ... say what ... WTF!! your negotiating SU-35 now" *

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## quro

No..have been lurking around the corner for long...


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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> Exactly, I would agree to that ... but this revelation does signify one thing ... while India remains an important customer to the Russians ... things have changed in the last 15 years from
> *
> "Indo-Russian Dosti Jindabaad!"* to
> 
> *"Russia ... Please don't sell RD-93 engines to Pakistan"* to
> 
> *"Cmon Russia, what's with the MI-35's "* to
> 
> *"oh okay ... just a few MI-35's"* to
> 
> *" Whoaa whoaa ... say what ... WTF!! your negotiating SU-35 now" *


as i said saeen ji before ... dont count your chickens till they hatch


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## zebra7

Bhaiya Su35 ke thread ka kya squardon banana hai kya. why don't you stick to one thread



Foxtrot Delta said:


> *Pak fa can be countered with matured/tweaked j-31 no problem and there is a rumor about Pak fa t-150 specific counter aircraft at shenyang design institute. but yet its only a rumor no source.*


No Pak fa can be countered by our matured/tweaked JF17 janab is the rumor.



Foxtrot Delta said:


> you should re-phrase that like if some how russia manges to sell the SU-35，they will greatly... its not the inability to buy on PAF's part its on if russia can really sell it to pakistan proving india is the client state and russia is in control not the other way around.



Yes and not unlike Pakistan and China who are both master ................... Sahi hai na janab.



GURU DUTT said:


> no we never counted 126 rafales we negociated on them but frenchies in time got way too greedy so we scrapped the orignal deal and proposed to buy 36 off the shelf from them while negociating with them for further 90+ rafales and bring down there cost with making them in india by offering france 49% stake in the new venture .... looks like you dont know anything about "baniya budhi" dont worry you will know shortlli and celebrate and mock indians when you have signed a deal with russians for su-35 or at least russians confirming they are agreed to sell you su-35 till then its all empty chest thumping and fancy rumours to make give some hope and things to rejoice for all hub bul watan pakistanies .... but the main issue is money .... money talks bull**** walks


Then why don't you take loan from IMF and buy rafale guru bhai Hamare Jangi Taiyaree me Su35 ka bhi Ijaffa ho gaya hai.



Muhammad Omar said:


> And what if Putin Shows India 2 Middle Fingers you know India Air force is dependent on Russian Spares ... your MiG 29 Su-30MKI and other wants spares from Russia to operate... Even If Russia and Pakistan Finalize the Deal of Su-35 would you really think that India will back of From all the deals just like that... Even if India does that who's gonna give India Spares of the Current fleet of Yours? Still now Half of your MKI are grounded facing repair issues ..... You guys Bitch just like same when the NEWS came about the Mi-35 Helicopters that India wont let that happen Russia will not give you Mi-35 visit any thread about Mi-35 deal.... Even your Government did protest to Russians and asked them not to give Pakistan Mi-35 But Russia Showed Middle Finger to India Just like that.... Did India Cancelled all of it's deals with Russia? i don't think so... You guys are just making fools of yourself here...
> 
> You guys bitch all day here about Russia won't give you this Russia won't give you that You cannot afford it Where is the money Russia won't give these on Soft Loans LOL
> 
> You Bhindians think that Soft loan is almost equal to Free or Gift.... Soft loan is payment can be extended into few more years it's not it's coming free
> 
> Pakistan is not gonna buy Su-35 in Large numbers like you guys are thinking only 2 squads will come if the talking get materialized that 36-40 jets most probably....
> 
> ACM Sohail is going to Russia next month And Putin in coming to India in December a lot of thing can happen in between that....



True and you Indians don't you dare to think of buying any weapon from China because for that pakistan have the copy right.


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Bhaiya Su35 ke thread ka kya squardon banana hai kya. why don't you stick to one thread
> 
> 
> No Pak fa can be countered by our matured/tweaked JF17 janab is the rumor.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and not unlike Pakistan and China who are both master ................... Sahi hai na janab.
> 
> 
> Then why don't you take loan from IMF and buy rafale guru bhai Hamare Jangi Taiyaree me Su35 ka bhi Ijaffa ho gaya hai.


what loan from IMF are you talking about sirji ... kindli elaborate


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## aliyusuf

Somehow reminds me of the pest infestation we had in our home ... some years back.

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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> what loan from IMF are you talking about sirji ... kindli elaborate


You Indians don't have any money to buy rafale than take loan from IMF and don't think we pakistani are cash strap because for Su35 we have $40Bn in reserve.

Pakistan Jindabaad


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## Maarkhoor

karan.1970 said:


> So no J-10 from China ?


As per performance J-10a and JF-17 block II quite similar so Pakistan is not going to induct J-10A and same case with china they will not induct JF-17 for the same reasons mentioned.


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> as i said saeen ji before ... dont count your chickens till they hatch



I'm still counting the last one as an egg .....


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## aamerjamal

zebra7 said:


> Wallekum Assalam. Thanks for all the pics and information about radar range, weapons, dogfight video with F35.
> Janaab is there any confirmed news on the sale of Su 35 or we are just beating the bush because if the news is confirmed for the talk is it necessary that the deal will takes place and if the deal does not take place and Indians make the deal with the Russian for the Su35 than the problem would be.
> 
> *All our Chanting, all ITTSII BINNI DOT BIKINI and all uploads of pics, video and Mashallah...... would be waisted and these Indians members don't have to do anything or to say anything and we will be back with JF17.*
> 
> Moral of the Story don't speak too loud before the final call bakki aap log jayda samajdhar hai.
> 
> Khuda Haffiz.


Hum JAYDA samajhdar hain hain, thats why we shout for this deal for just a year or so, unlike some dumb kind that shouting about the mother deal for 10 long year without signing the deal....

RAFALE:
Moral of the Story don't speak too loud before the final call



zebra7 said:


> Sir I fully believe that Su35 is coming to Pakistan only few questions regarding Su35.
> 
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.
> 
> 2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin
> 
> 3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.
> 
> 4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.
> 
> 5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.
> 
> 
> Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
> 
> 1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
> 2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
> 3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
> 4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
> 5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
> via wiretransfer.
> 6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
> 7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now Pakistani order.
> 8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide Pakistan with the wold class and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.



Major +ve of SU35 over MKI even after Super MKI

1 Longer Range
2 Bigger Radar
3 Lower RCS (3m2 vs 12m2)
4 Lowest maintenance in all Russians Aircraft (can't confirm but read somewhere that its maintenance is lower even then Rafael)
5 Fully digital Cockpit
6 higher payload

and Now Gawader Vs Chabahar
1. the route for Russia doesn't have to go through Afghanisan
2. the route also complement with a Train line and Pipe Lines for Petrol Gas etc
3. Pakistan Raised 10K strong force to protect it 

does Afghanistan can provide that kind of security?

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## farhan_9909

hahahahahaha

Bichaare ghareeb indian

mars prr pohanch gye lekin soch wohi ghareebo wali

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> You Indians don't have any money to buy rafale than take loan from IMF and don't think we pakistani are cash strap because for Su35 we have $40Bn in reserve.
> 
> Pakistan Jindabaad


so whats your point 

agar saamne walle ka mu laal hai to kya hum tappar maar ke apna mu bhi laal ker le 

we have a better idea why not make owrself rich enof to buy what we need than asking for khairaat and running to IMF with a kashkoal


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## zebra7

aamerjamal said:


> Hum JAYDA samajhdar hain hain, thats why we shout for this deal for just a year or so, unlike some dumb kind that shouting about the mother deal for 10 long year without signing the deal....
> 
> RAFALE:
> Moral of the Story don't speak too loud before the final call
> 
> 
> 
> Major +ve of SU35 over MKI even after Super MKI
> 
> 1 Longer Range
> 2 Bigger Radar
> 3 Lower RCS (3m2 vs 12m2)
> 4 Lowest maintenance in all Russians Aircraft (can't confirm but read somewhere that its maintenance is lower even then Rafael)
> 5 Fully digital Cockpit
> 6 higher payload
> 
> and Now Gawader Vs Chabahar
> 1. the route for Russia doesn't have to go through Afghanisan
> 2. the route also complement with a Train line and Pipe Lines for Petrol Gas etc
> 3. Pakistan Raised 10K strong force to protect it
> 
> does Afghanistan can provide that kind of security?



Any thing else but *Lowest maintenance in all Russians Aircraft (can't confirm but read somewhere that its maintenance is lower even then Rafael*

thanks can you give me the link.


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## GURU DUTT

farhan_9909 said:


> hahahahahaha
> 
> Bichaare ghareeb indian
> 
> mars prr pohanch gye lekin soch wohi ghareebo wali


janab paisa jityna marzi kamma lo per insaan ko kabhi apni aukat nahi bhoolni chaiye 



abdulbarijan said:


> I'm still counting the last one as an egg .....


good for you


----------



## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> so whats your point
> 
> agar saamne walle ka mu laal hai to kya hum tappar maar ke apna mu bhi laal ker le
> 
> we have a better idea why not make owrself rich enof to buy what we need than asking for khairaat and running to IMF with a kashkoal


Laal karo ya pilla our JF17 ka color hai hara aur yeh hai kar marj ki dawa,
Pur aur nahi guru bhai Su35 in Bihari kahat kai Awa, Awa, Awa, Awa....


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Laal karo ya pilla our JF17 ka color hai hara aur yeh hai kar marj ki dawa,
> Pur aur nahi guru bhai Su35 in Bihari kahat kai Awa, Awa, Awa, Awa....


that part i totalli agree a martial race highli trained PAF pilot in a DSI tech enabelled god's gift to aviation the mighty JF-17 can single handedlli kill a full squad of indian MKIs , Mig29s or M2Ks or even for that matter rafales flown by short and dark malnutritioned IAF pilots


----------



## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> that part i totalli agree a martial race highli trained PAF pilot is DSI tech enabelled god's gift to aviation the mighty JF-17 can single handedlli kill a full squad of indian MKIs , Mig29s or M2Ks or even for that matter rafales


Yeh tumri samaj naa aayi naa, Ghum le chahi saab duniya,
Su35 se bhadiya plane na milli hai tum ka khayee.

We have all Dsi enable al-khalid, we have better sam anja 2 better than akash.
Janab gurubhai we have money 40bn dollar wiretransfer from china and we have imf, We have Russia, China, Taliban aur tumare paas kya hai.


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## AtiF Malang

As i said in another thread india is acting like a woman who when see a rich man run to him the next moment when sh see a handsome she run to him then a polite etc etc like after each passing second she is looking for some one new. 
Same india was with russia because time tested friend . Then India went for some US hardware because of technological advancement . Then to french for Rafael as french are reliable . Now i hear they want good relation with North Korea . 
This kind of behavior makes the woman in above example considered bad by society and no one respect here same what india is doing will make it isolated . you can't keep US , Russia And North Korea together . 
in the case of woman beauty is not the only thing which will make people respect her same with India some super hyped $$ are not the only thing .

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## aamerjamal

zebra7 said:


> Any thing else but *Lowest maintenance in all Russians Aircraft (can't confirm but read somewhere that its maintenance is lower even then Rafael*
> 
> thanks can you give me the link.


did I or Didn't i say can't confirm, btw easiest is to check same thread a chart is present that shows rafael has the highest maintenance cost while in Russian video Sukhoi company says SU 35 is lowest but the link which shows both is not available now ........


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Yeh tumri samaj naa aayi naa, Ghum le chahi saab duniya,
> Su35 se bhadiya plane na milli hai tum ka khayee.
> 
> Janab gurubhai we have money 40bn dollar wiretransfer from china and we have imf, We have Russia, China, Taliban aur tumare paas kya hai.


hamre paas khud kamane ki slahiyat hai

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## I S I

khanboy007 said:


> How many of these birds are we looking at ?_ I read 120 somewhere_ *not sure though !!*


"120"





aliyusuf said:


> Somehow reminds me of the pest infestation we had in our home ... some years back.


Termite?



quro said:


> There's will be a lot of face saving to do if this deal does not go through


Welcome to the 'Trolling Republic of Defence.pk"

@GURU DUTT will be your guide here.


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## zebra7

aamerjamal said:


> did I or Didn't i say can't confirm, btw easiest is to check same thread a chart is present that shows rafael has the highest maintenance cost while in Russian video Sukhoi company says SU 35 is lowest but the link which shows both is not available now ........


If you really think that it is possible than best of luck but i take it with the pinch of salt.


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## jaiind

i would deactivate my account if paf gets these jets


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> good for you



Indeed it is ... not so sure about your side though ... and the Indian " unhatched chickens" 

Analysts: India's Fighter Buy Cancellation Hurts Industry, Air Force

Surprise: India’s New Fighter Jet Faces More Delays | The Diplomat

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## Secret Service

jaiind said:


> i would deactivate my account if paf gets these jets



it will not make a tiny difference.. i reckon do it now

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## aamerjamal

aamerjamal said:


> did I or Didn't i say can't confirm, btw easiest is to check same thread a chart is present that shows rafael has the highest maintenance cost while in Russian video Sukhoi company says SU 35 is lowest but the link which shows both is not available now ........





zebra7 said:


> If you really think that it is possible than best of luck but i take it with the pinch of salt.


why are you talking my words a little reference is even in this same thread Rafael with highest in western planes and Sukhoi video which say lowest in all previous russian plans

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## zebra7

Baas bhai aab to su35 ko baksh do aur yeh thread pe thread ko chod do.


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## Maarkhoor

jaiind said:


> i would deactivate my account if paf gets these jets


So whats make the difference, aunt is threatening an elephant.


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## zebra7

I don't take anyone word or believe anyone without using my brain. Compare the size of both the plane you will soon realize what i mean.


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## Kakaspai

AtiF Malang said:


> As i said in another thread india is acting like a woman who when see a rich man run to him the next moment when sh see a handsome she run to him then a polite etc etc like after each passing second she is looking for some one new.
> Same india was with russia because time tested friend . Then India went for some US hardware because of technological advancement . Then to french for Rafael as french are reliable . Now i hear they want good relation with North Korea .
> This kind of behavior makes the woman in above example considered bad by society and no one respect here same what india is doing will make it isolated . you can't keep US , Russia And North Korea together .
> in the case of woman beauty is not the only thing which will make people respect her same with India some super hyped $$ are not the only thing .


the correct term would be Dehati aurat

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## aliyusuf

I S I said:


> Termite?



The creeping crawling kind!

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## I S I

Bhai log indians, if we get even one flanker then i will ask PAF to bomb new delhi with a warhead of 10,000KG burnol seriously.

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## Secret Service

i am thinking to start selling Burnol.. potential super market.

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## Salza

ito said:


> Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.



Sour grapes . Lolz actually its the other way around. Indian potential Rafale deal has prompted Pakistan to go for a fighter plane of similar caliber since PAF hasn't recruited any major plane brand other than F16 block 52 in the last couple of decades.


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## I S I

secretservice said:


> i am thinking to start selling Burnol.. potential super market.


You will get richer than bill gates if you just supply all of it to India. I heard their daily consumption is around 1 Billion liter. 1liter per person.

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## I S I

jaiind said:


> i would deactivate my account if paf gets these jets


You should do it asap.


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## AtiF Malang

Kakaspai said:


> the correct term would be Dehati aurat


We can use alot of terms but Moderation ⚠


----------



## GURU DUTT

Salman Zahidi said:


> Sour grapes . Lolz actually its the other way around. Indian potential Rafale deal has prompted Pakistan to go for a fighter plane of similar caliber since PAF hasn't recruited any major plane brand other than F16 block 52 in the last couple of decades.


here lies the catch line when WTO started pakistan could have got whatever it wanted had they not played with USA to save its interests in afghanistan but it did the opposite of what was required india took advantage from that and USA pinalised pakistan in the way it does best

now for air assets well MRCA deal was destinned to fail as it was nothing more than a kickbacks making scheme by the corrupt UPA

but when Namo took over as PM all changed but frenchies were not cooprating and wanted there investments back which they did with UPA at the expense of indian tax payers money 

but when they saw they "frenchies" saw that they will loose and USA will gain from it they changed there mind now everything is on track as india wanted it to be

same goes for many russian deals even this current rumour of su-35 with pakistan was part of russian tactiks to arm twist india to get the best deals

how sucsesful were russians or indians will onli come owt after Namo,s december tour to russia till then happy dreaming and trolling


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## dadeechi

jaiind said:


> US has been aiding pak since decades with its tech and $$. Russia could not provide any stuff in the form of aid like america, then how would you mange the $$ to get decent fleet??.



The deal would be financed by China.


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## nadeemkhan110

I S I said:


> Bhai log indians, if we get even one flanker then i will ask PAF to bomb new delhi with a warhead of 10,000KG burnol seriously.


 LOL I think PAF is showing interest they are thinking about +40


----------



## Hurter

*With SU-35, our defensive doctrine might be changed as well. *

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## dadeechi

Great Sachin said:


> but we can stop new business with Russia....like PAK FA etc....which is huge deal compare to your tiny deal...



And what would be the alternative to PAK-FA?


----------



## Kurlang

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *can even pack a ucav burraq full of runway destroying munitions and crash low flying radar hidden kamakazi style suicidal drones into india, provided they cant interfier and hack the transmission controls opps! okay may be its a flop idea.*


bhai, plz change font


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## I M Sikander

Russians have started thinking in french manner.

Business is business and a cup of tea is a cup of tea. Russians have always been either friend or foe. Now they are doing business like French
French has been weapon Darling both for india and Pakistan. India and Pakistan are using french subs , weapons and fighter jets and neither india nor pakistan complaint france.

Russia should also follow this french model. 

To hell with ideological friends and foes, at the end of the day it is the "Money" what matters.

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## nadeemkhan110

Ranasikander said:


> Russians have started thinking in french manner.
> 
> Business is business and a cup of tea is a cup of tea. Russians have always been either friend or foe. Now they are doing business like French
> French has been weapon Darling both for india and Pakistan. India and Pakistan are using french subs , weapons and fighter jets and neither india nor pakistan complaint france.
> 
> Russia should also follow this french model.
> 
> To hell with ideological friends and foes, at the end of the day it is the "Money" what matters.


I think Russia will follow business laws


----------



## I M Sikander

nadeemkhan110 said:


> I think Russia will follow business laws


In business the only law that matters is money. All business models follow this.


----------



## dadeechi

hell__raider said:


> By the time Pakistan gets Su-35 India will get PAK-FA. Pakistan is behind the curve.



From the point of Indians saying "Russia would never sell the SU-35s to Pakistan" we have arrived to the point where Indians say "Russia PAK-FA to India would be better than Russian SU-35 to Pakistan".....

What a climb down...

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## AtiF Malang

dadeechi said:


> And what would be the alternative to PAK-FA?


F-35 Lightening ii. 
US would love to roast PakFA by Pakistani F35 . Also F35 will give US the power to pressurize pakistan


----------



## nadeemkhan110

Su-35 vs F-16 Specifications







*Su-35 Specifications
Fuel capacity:* 11,500 kg (25,400 lb) internally

*Maximum speed: At altitude:* Mach 2.25 (2,390 km/h, 1,490 mph)
* At sea level:* Mach 1.15 (1,400 km/h, 870 mph)

*Range: At altitude:* 3,600 km (1,940 nmi)
* At sea level:* 1,580 km (850 nmi)

*Ferry range:* 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with 2 external fuel tanks

*Service ceiling:* 18,000 m (59,100 ft)

*Rate of climb:* >280 m/s (>55,000 ft/min)

*Wing loading:* 408 kg/m² (500.8 kg/m² with full internal fuel) (84.9 lb/ft² 50% fuel)

*Thrust/weight:* 1.13 at 50% fuel (0.92 with full internal fuel)

*Maximum g-load:* +9 _g_
*Armament*

*Guns:* 1× 30 mm GSh-301 internal cannon with 150 rounds
*Hardpoints:* 12 hardpoints, consisting of 2 wingtip rails, and 10 wing and fuselage stations with a capacity of 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance and provisions to carry combinations of:
*Rockets:*
S-25L laser-guided rocket
S-25 unguided rocket
B-8 unguided S-8 rocket pods
B-13 unguided S-13 rocket pods

*Missiles:*
Vympel R-27R/ER/T/ET
Vympel R-77 – the proposed R-77M, R-77T
Vympel R-73E/M, and R-74M
Vympel R-37M[153]
Kh-29T/L
Kh-31P/A
Kh-59ME

*Bombs:*
FAB-250 250-kilogram (550 lb) unguided bombs
FAB-500 500-kilogram (1,100 lb) unguided bombs
KAB-500L laser-guided bomb
KAB-1500 laser-guided bomb

*Other:*
buddy refueling pod


*Avionics*

Irbis-E passive phased array radar
OLS-35 infra-red search and track system
L265 Khibiny-M electronic warfare pod
______________________________________________________________________________________________





*F16 Block 50 Specifications*

*Maximum speed: At sea level:* Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[64]
* At altitude:* Mach 2[2] (1,320 mph, 2,120 km/h) clean configuration

*Combat radius:* 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs

*Ferry range:* 2,280 nmi (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks

*Service ceiling:* 50,000+ ft[2] (15,240+ m)

*Rate of climb:* 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)

*Wing loading:* 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)

*Thrust/weight:* 1.095

*Maximum g-load:* +9.0 g
*Armament*

*Guns:* 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A1 Vulcan 6-barrel Gatling cannon, 511 rounds
*Hardpoints:* 2 × wing-tip Air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of Up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores
*Rockets:*
4 × LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19/7 × Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively)
4 × LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19 × CRV7 70 mm rockets)
4 × LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4 × Zuni 127 mm rockets)

*Missiles:*
Air-to-air missiles:
2 × AIM-7 Sparrow
6 × AIM-9 Sidewinder
6 × AIM-120 AMRAAM
6 × IRIS-T
6 × Python-4

Air-to-ground missiles:
6 × AGM-65 Maverick
4 × AGM-88 HARM
AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)

Anti-ship missiles:
2 × AGM-84 Harpoon
4 × AGM-119 Penguin


*Bombs:*
8 × CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition
8 × CBU-89 Gator mine
8 × CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon
4 × Mark 84 general-purpose bombs
8 × Mark 83 GP bombs
12 × Mark 82 GP bombs
8 × GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB)
4 × GBU-10 Paveway II
6 × GBU-12 Paveway II
4 × GBU-24 Paveway III
4 × GBU-27 Paveway III
4 × Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series
4 × AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW)
Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
B61 nuclear bomb
B83 nuclear bomb


*Others:*
SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod _or_
AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods _or_
LANTIRN, Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods _or_
Up to 3 × 300/330/370/600 US gallon _Sargent Fletcher_ drop tanks for ferry flight/extended range/loitering time _or_
UTC Aerospace DB-110 long range EO/IR sensor pod on centerline

*Avionics*

AN/APG-68 radar
MIL-STD-1553 bus
Sources: Sukhoi Su-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Secret Service

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Su-35 vs F-16 Specifications
> 
> 
> View attachment 258466
> 
> *Su-35 Specifications
> Fuel capacity:* 11,500 kg (25,400 lb) internally
> 
> *Maximum speed: At altitude:* Mach 2.25 (2,390 km/h, 1,490 mph)
> * At sea level:* Mach 1.15 (1,400 km/h, 870 mph)
> 
> *Range: At altitude:* 3,600 km (1,940 nmi)
> * At sea level:* 1,580 km (850 nmi)
> 
> *Ferry range:* 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with 2 external fuel tanks
> 
> *Service ceiling:* 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
> 
> *Rate of climb:* >280 m/s (>55,000 ft/min)
> 
> *Wing loading:* 408 kg/m² (500.8 kg/m² with full internal fuel) (84.9 lb/ft² 50% fuel)
> 
> *Thrust/weight:* 1.13 at 50% fuel (0.92 with full internal fuel)
> 
> *Maximum g-load:* +9 _g_
> *Armament*
> 
> *Guns:* 1× 30 mm GSh-301 internal cannon with 150 rounds
> *Hardpoints:* 12 hardpoints, consisting of 2 wingtip rails, and 10 wing and fuselage stations with a capacity of 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance and provisions to carry combinations of:
> *Rockets:*
> S-25L laser-guided rocket
> S-25 unguided rocket
> B-8 unguided S-8 rocket pods
> B-13 unguided S-13 rocket pods
> 
> *Missiles:*
> Vympel R-27R/ER/T/ET
> Vympel R-77 – the proposed R-77M, R-77T
> Vympel R-73E/M, and R-74M
> Vympel R-37M[153]
> Kh-29T/L
> Kh-31P/A
> Kh-59ME
> 
> *Bombs:*
> FAB-250 250-kilogram (550 lb) unguided bombs
> FAB-500 500-kilogram (1,100 lb) unguided bombs
> KAB-500L laser-guided bomb
> KAB-1500 laser-guided bomb
> 
> *Other:*
> buddy refueling pod
> 
> 
> *Avionics*
> 
> Irbis-E passive phased array radar
> OLS-35 infra-red search and track system
> L265 Khibiny-M electronic warfare pod
> ______________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> View attachment 258467
> 
> *F16 Block 50 Specifications*
> 
> *Maximum speed: At sea level:* Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[64]
> * At altitude:* Mach 2[2] (1,320 mph, 2,120 km/h) clean configuration
> 
> *Combat radius:* 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
> 
> *Ferry range:* 2,280 nmi (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> 
> *Service ceiling:* 50,000+ ft[2] (15,240+ m)
> 
> *Rate of climb:* 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
> 
> *Wing loading:* 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
> 
> *Thrust/weight:* 1.095
> 
> *Maximum g-load:* +9.0 g
> *Armament*
> 
> *Guns:* 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A1 Vulcan 6-barrel Gatling cannon, 511 rounds
> *Hardpoints:* 2 × wing-tip Air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of Up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores
> *Rockets:*
> 4 × LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19/7 × Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively)
> 4 × LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19 × CRV7 70 mm rockets)
> 4 × LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4 × Zuni 127 mm rockets)
> 
> *Missiles:*
> Air-to-air missiles:
> 2 × AIM-7 Sparrow
> 6 × AIM-9 Sidewinder
> 6 × AIM-120 AMRAAM
> 6 × IRIS-T
> 6 × Python-4
> 
> Air-to-ground missiles:
> 6 × AGM-65 Maverick
> 4 × AGM-88 HARM
> AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)
> 
> Anti-ship missiles:
> 2 × AGM-84 Harpoon
> 4 × AGM-119 Penguin
> 
> 
> *Bombs:*
> 8 × CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition
> 8 × CBU-89 Gator mine
> 8 × CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon
> 4 × Mark 84 general-purpose bombs
> 8 × Mark 83 GP bombs
> 12 × Mark 82 GP bombs
> 8 × GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB)
> 4 × GBU-10 Paveway II
> 6 × GBU-12 Paveway II
> 4 × GBU-24 Paveway III
> 4 × GBU-27 Paveway III
> 4 × Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series
> 4 × AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW)
> Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
> B61 nuclear bomb
> B83 nuclear bomb
> 
> 
> *Others:*
> SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod _or_
> AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods _or_
> LANTIRN, Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods _or_
> Up to 3 × 300/330/370/600 US gallon _Sargent Fletcher_ drop tanks for ferry flight/extended range/loitering time _or_
> UTC Aerospace DB-110 long range EO/IR sensor pod on centerline
> 
> *Avionics*
> 
> AN/APG-68 radar
> MIL-STD-1553 bus
> Sources: Sukhoi Su-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




i dont think its a right time to discuss the specifications of su 35 and f 16 .. we are over reacting, i think. it is indeed a positive development but we have to wait.

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## khail007

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he he pakistani fantasy of indians bieng jealous on reports of Su-35 for pkaistan is like like lewis hamilton getting jelous of @qamar1990 as qamar wants to buy a merc
> 
> View attachment 258362



And GURU jee acts like lewis and already owns a merc and try to influence manufacturer not to sell to qamar....ha ha ha

GURU jee u r from the nation which is born jealous of Pakistan's creation and that is a historical fact.


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## GURU DUTT

dadeechi said:


> From the point of Indians saying "Russia would never sell the SU-35s to Pakistan" we have arrived to the point where Indians say "Russia PAK-FA to India would be better than Russian SU-35 to Pakistan".....
> 
> What a climb down...


as i said before dont count your chickens till they hatch kya samjhe 

point is just because india is buying western wepons pakistanies are dreaming russia will jeopardise its equations with india.... do you realli think russia will do that 

as for pakistan its total militarry and socio economik infra is totalli dependent on USA support will USA keep quite when it sees its investnments getting neutralised by russia & china getting it for which it aided pakistan for more than half a centuarry specialli when bulk of all the assets of pakistani elite are in western nations 

as they say two brids in hand are better than four in the bush .... if you know what i mean


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## ice_man

AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER 

IN 

PAF 

JUST THE IDEA OF IT SOUNDS LIKE A REVOLUTION.


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## MEAGAN FOXSS

PAKISTAN AND RUSSIA WILL BE GREATEST STRATEGIC PARTNERS . . .


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## Secret Service

khail007 said:


> And GURU jee acts like lewis and already owns a merc and try to influence manufacturer not to sell to qamar....ha ha ha
> 
> GURU jee u r from the nation which is born jealous of Pakistan's creation and that is a historical fact.


he was born out of jealousy ...

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## MEAGAN FOXSS

LoveIcon said:


> May be or may not, but how Pakistan will arrange funds for any procurement from Russia, or how Russia will recover money from Pakistan for her sales is not the thing which Indians should be worried about.


WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF U IRANIANS FOLLOWERS OF ROUHANI THE DEVIL . . .


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## nadeemkhan110

dadeechi said:


> From the point of Indians saying "Russia would never sell the SU-35s to Pakistan" we have arrived to the point where Indians say "Russia PAK-FA to India would be better than Russian SU-35 to Pakistan".....
> 
> What a climb down...


Difference between pak FA and SU-35 is pak fa is stealth (design) That's it


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## GURU DUTT

khail007 said:


> And GURU jee acts like lewis and already owns a merc and try to influence manufacturer not to sell to qamar....ha ha ha
> 
> GURU jee u r from the nation which is born jealous of Pakistan's creation and that is a historical fact.


kehna kya chate ho bhai 

and why would i ask manufacturer not to sell merc to anyone .... but point is do you have the ammount required to buy and mentain merc(su-35) 

na soot na kapaas aur julahhe lathhamm lathhaa


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## karan.1970

Abu Namr said:


> As per performance J-10a and JF-17 block II quite similar so Pakistan is not going to induct J-10A and same case with china they will not induct JF-17 for the same reasons mentioned.


Isnt J10 a twin engine and JF 17 (blk II) a single engine fighter ?


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## araz

zebra7 said:


> Sir I fully believe that Su35 is coming to Pakistan only few questions regarding Su35.
> 
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.
> 
> 2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin
> 
> 3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.
> 
> 4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.
> 
> 5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.
> 
> 
> Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
> 
> 1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
> 2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
> 3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
> 4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
> 5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
> via wiretransfer.
> 6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
> 7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.
> 8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.


Iwould not be as jingoistic as you but I do agree with most of your post. Iran is currently under sanctions and with the problems with dealing with the Iranian regime in the current environment it is impossible to go down that route.
ÌF the russians do agree to sell and PAF DO agree to buy the deal is still far away a lot can still go wrong. I do not see PAF in any shape to integrate a newer platform till2020 so A deal needs to be signed by 2017-18. Let us see what happens.

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## GURU DUTT

karan.1970 said:


> Isnt J10 a twin engine and JF 17 (blk II) a single engine fighter ?


J-11 is twin engined J-10 is single engined fighter jet quite confusing isnt it  ..... but every thing apart its all about money ... if you know wat i mean


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## alee92nawaz

GURU DUTT said:


> we are already into advance phase of finalising design for owr AMCA & AURA + do you know both Japan and USA want to sell there 5th gen fighters to india and india is already in talks with USA for EMALS & AAG with two squads of F-35C and a couple of tilt rotar based E-2D/E for owr IAC-2
> 
> and russia needs and trust india more than pakistan as india is currentlli the onli nation which is using russian SSN and in billions of $$s worth deals in nuclear power genration , subs , fighter jets , tanks and what not do you realli think russia will kiss good buy to all that just because pakistan wants to buy a couple of squads of su-35 from it ... anyway dear good luck


 Arereally funny sir....I will give u that

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## PakShaheen79

GURU DUTT said:


> here lies the catch line when WTO started pakistan could have got whatever it wanted had they not played with USA to save its interests in afghanistan but it did the opposite of what was required india took advantage from that and USA pinalised pakistan in the way it does best
> 
> now for air assets well MRCA deal was destinned to fail as it was nothing more than a kickbacks making scheme by the corrupt UPA
> 
> but when Namo took over as PM all changed but frenchies were not cooprating and wanted there investments back which they did with UPA at the expense of indian tax payers money
> 
> but when they saw they "frenchies" saw that they will loose and USA will gain from it they changed there mind now everything is on track as india wanted it to be
> 
> *same goes for many russian deals even this current rumour of su-35 with pakistan was part of russian tactiks to arm twist india to get the best deals*
> 
> how sucsesful were russians or indians will onli come owt after Namo,s december tour to russia till then happy dreaming and trolling



Russian FM and PAF officials are creating rumors. Interesting. Isn't it?


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## GURU DUTT

MEAGAN FOXSS said:


> PAKISTAN AND RUSSIA WILL BE GREATEST STRATEGIC PARTNERS . . .


thats great isnt it 

please turn of your caps lock cutie pie no need to get angry


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## khail007

GURU DUTT said:


> kehna kya chate ho bhai



Dear GURU jee, jan ki amman paaon tu, fidwi yeh arz karna chahta hai k Pakistan never jealous of India it is otherwise...

Hazoor agar samajh sakain tu...


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## GURU DUTT

PakShaheen79 said:


> Russian FM and PAF officials are creating rumors. Interesting. Isn't it?


well we all do that to make a sucssful deal ... PR my friend PR (advertising) mock indians on therre foriegn policy when russia officialli declares its selling su-35s to pakistan even if you forget about its fly away cost and cost of ownership and mantainence and totalli diffrent training and wepons for it but still


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## alee92nawaz

GreenFalcon said:


> If Pakistan does decide to add some Su-35s to its fleet, it will change the whole dynamics of the PAF for the better. With a growing economy and with a bright future ahead, a long-range advanced fighter like the Sukhoi 35 is the perfect option for Pakistan. I just hope that the deal goes through and we acquire a few of these beasts.


Aybe Pakistan wants twin engine experience before j-31 and may develop a twin engined jf-17


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## Death Adder

GURU DUTT said:


> J-11 is twin engined J-10 is single engined fighter jet quite confusing isnt it  ..... *but every thing apart its all about money ... if you know wat i mean*



It's applicable on India so called 'mother of all deals' downgraded to 36 and after 10 years of waiting, final contract is yet to be signed.  Whereas, Pakistan managed to purchase all required defence equipment by hook or crook.

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## GURU DUTT

khail007 said:


> Dear GURU jee, jan ki amman paaon tu, fidwi yeh arz karna chahta hai k Pakistan never jealous of India it is otherwise...
> 
> Hazoor agar samajh sakain tu...


then why did you made such a noise when obama came to india but dint went to pakistan or when USA gace india civil nuclear deal but dint agree to give the same to pakistan 

baat samjh me ayee ho saeen ji to duaoon me yaad rakhna 



Death Adder said:


> It's applicable on India so called 'mother of all deals' downgraded to 36 and after 10 years of waiting, final contract is yet to be signed.  Whereas, Pakistan managed to purchase all required defence equipment by hook or crook.


but still we have MKIs and largest number of Mig29s owtside russia ... if you know what i mean

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## hell__raider

dadeechi said:


> From the point of Indians saying "Russia would never sell the SU-35s to Pakistan" we have arrived to the point where Indians say "Russia PAK-FA to India would be better than Russian SU-35 to Pakistan".....
> 
> What a climb down...


Which Indian official said that Russia will not sell Su-35S to Pakistan. Can you enlighten me.

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## dadeechi

Mani2020 said:


> Considering news of china negotiating for su-35 have started to appear again, i believe there is something really cooking with China and Pakistan both on the table for su-35 negotiations with russia.... May be china wants to get hands onto latest russian flanker and they might do it via pakistan by sponsoring this deal or becoming a third party guarantor or financier...
> 
> Point to consider here is that out of a sudden what pushed paf to even consider su-35 that too from a country which is the strategic partner of her enemy ..even if relationships are improving still even considering su-35 itself is a big leap and that big leap isn't a possibility without china's involvement. On chinese side may be they don't want to directly acquire su-35 not because they can't but may be because they don't want to as they themselves are developing alot of flanker versions which they are claiming to be superior to or atleast at par with their russian counterparts so in such case acquiring su-35 directly may result into creating a fuss among chinese ranks/public/foes and may create a belief that what china is producing is not upto the mark and still lag behind



China would finance this deal but not for the reason you alluded to on how it would reflect on their technology but rather this is direct result of CPEC.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were to be a war between India & Pakistan on Kashmir, it would have direct impact on CPEC. Now China would be forced to join the war to protect it's economic interests tied to CPEC. But China joining in a Indo-Pak war would mean that US-Japan could also jump in. The US-Japan jumping in to protect India is debatable but it gives them a perfect excuse to bring down China before China becomes too big to handle. If China-Pak loose the war, it is a victory for US-Japan. If China-Pak win the war it is India's loss.

Hence China would like to make Pakistan enough strong against India which would not require China to jump in. This goal of China could never be achieved with Pak's F-16s but rather with Pak's SU-35s which would come with no restrictions for use against India (-US-Japan).



hell__raider said:


> Which Indian official said that Russia will not sell Su-35S to Pakistan. Can you enlighten me.



I am referring to the India members on this forum.

Do you even think an Indian official would a make statement that "Russia would not sell SU-35s to Pakistan"? India does not have authority to issue such statement. Such statement, if any, would ONLY come from Russia.

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## aliyusuf

Nothing personal, not at you.

I am speaking in general terms on trolling, insecure mindset that needs to gloat and resort to extreme jingoism and jumping in hordes to take "tafree" especially to a forum which is a Pakistani forum ... despite having extreme prejudice and malice (that is apparent once the superficial veneer is peeled off) towards Pakistan.

It was never my intention to hurt or offend you or anybody personally.


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## Beethoven

C'mon yaar what are 36 odd Flankers in front of the mighty IAF???? I wouldn't be worried about the Deal if I were you....


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## khail007

GURU DUTT said:


> then why did you made such a noise when obama came to india but dint went to pakistan or when USA gace india civil nuclear deal but dint agree to give the same to pakistan
> 
> baat samjh me ayee ho saeen ji to duaoon me yaad rakhna
> 
> 
> but still we have MKIs and largest number of Mig29s owtside russia ... if you know what i mean



GURU jee, U R really a GURU but sometime GURUS also have to learn from chailas.

JEALOUSLY : U don' strive to get the position/status of opponent but prays to depreive him or struggle to depreive him of anyting better.

Request to treat on par do not lie in JEALOUSY. My feeling is that in your above statement you did not pay attention to it.

Will request u to understand and distinguish among such terms.


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## Abdullah S.

special said:


> lol.. you pakistanis are really fools..
> pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time.
> Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters???  now think who is in delusion.
> india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??
> .


Man Indians cant believe whats happening to them. They're in a state of denial. This is too much
We'll manage the money issues by hook or by crook just like we always have baby, you worry about India cuz last I heard you cut down the FGFA requirement down to 3 squadron due to lack of dough.
And I said J31 *or *TFX. I understand you're having a little problem comprehending things cuz of lack of burnol on your behind. Here, help yourself:


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## I M Sikander

GURU DUTT said:


> as i said before dont count your chickens till they hatch kya samjhe
> 
> point is just because india is buying western wepons pakistanies are dreaming russia will jeopardise its equations with india.... do you realli think russia will do that
> 
> as for pakistan its total militarry and socio economik infra is totalli dependent on USA support will USA keep quite when it sees its investnments getting neutralised by russia & china getting it for which it aided pakistan for more than half a centuarry specialli when bulk of all the assets of pakistani elite are in western nations
> 
> as they say two brids in hand are better than four in the bush .... if you know what i mean


This gives Pakistan an opportunity to milk uncle sam more. 
We know how to handle uncle sam and achieving our goals at the same.

Usa never wanted us to be a nuclear power, but we did it while sucking the american aid at the same time.

We are getting aid from usa buyong weapons from them but at the same time we are Chinese stratgic ally and partner.

Cpec is progressing despite american and india opposition.

Uncle sam is powerful but let them face the fact that we they not God.


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## Maarkhoor

karan.1970 said:


> Isnt J10 a twin engine and JF 17 (blk II) a single engine fighter ?


J10 and JF 17 both single engin

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## Mani2020

dadeechi said:


> China would finance this deal but not for the reason you alluded to on how it would reflect on their technology but rather this is direct result of CPEC.
> 
> Hypothetically speaking, if there were to be a war between India & Pakistan on Kashmir, it would have direct impact on CPEC. Now China would be forced to join the war to protect it's economic interests tied to CPEC. But China joining in a Indo-Pak war would mean that US-Japan could also jump in. The US-Japan jumping in to protect India is debatable but it gives them a perfect excuse to bring down China before China becomes too big to handle. If China-Pak loose the war, it is a victory for US-Japan. If China-Pak win the war it is India's loss.
> 
> Hence China would like to make Pakistan enough strong against India which would not require China to jump in. This goal of China could never be achieved with Pak's F-16s but rather with Pak's SU-35s which would come with no restrictions for use against India (-US-Japan).
> .



Yes, CPEC can be another reason too.... China's aims are big , they arn't looking at india but there focus is more on US and NATO... If we compare China and india with regards to conventional warfare india is no match to chinese rapid modernization and military size...but at the same time they can't ignore india or they dont wan't to give india a free hand because somewhere they know india can create hurdles in their strategic interests but for them good thing is Pakistan which is already a foe of india ....so by making pakistan strong they to some extent are giving themselves a room of focusing less on india and at the same time directing that focus to their major foes.... Making pakistan militarily strong doesnt only mean increased chinese defence sales but also a door to enter middle eastern markets ..besides there are economic benefits too for china in pakistan ... but i believe as long as its mutually beneficial for us and them, its a win win situation ...

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## war&peace

Su-35 has a price tag of USD 40-65 millions / unit depending how the list features and capabilities. If only two squadrons are purchased will full configuration (which is the most probable case), the price will lean towards the upper limit and two squadron ( at least two dozens) of Su-35 will cost approx. USD 1.56 billion. However if a bigger deal is signed to procure a larger number of (100+) Su-35s over the next few years (5-10), the unit cost will lean towards the lower limit of USD 40 millions / unit and a manageable payment plan of instalments can be negotiated. Pakistan needs a strong airforce and Navy and it gets essential with CPEC becoming functional in couple of years. Pakistan can well afford USD 20-25 billion for upgrading the air and naval defences of the country. It is necessary and over due. Nukes are good deterrence but we need robust conventional capability too.

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## nadeemkhan110

GURU DUTT said:


> then why did you made such a noise when obama came to india but dint went to pakistan or when USA gace india civil nuclear deal but dint agree to give the same to pakistan
> 
> baat samjh me ayee ho saeen ji to duaoon me yaad rakhna


That's what he is saying we DON't care Mr


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## dadeechi

GURU DUTT said:


> as i said before dont count your chickens till they hatch kya samjhe
> 
> point is just because india is buying western wepons pakistanies are dreaming russia will jeopardise its equations with india.... do you realli think russia will do that
> 
> as for pakistan its total militarry and socio economik infra is totalli dependent on USA support will USA keep quite when it sees its investnments getting neutralised by russia & china getting it for which it aided pakistan for more than half a centuarry specialli when bulk of all the assets of pakistani elite are in western nations
> 
> as they say two brids in hand are better than four in the bush .... if you know what i mean



I may not count the chickens hatching in India's backyard until they are hatched but would surely count the chicken's being hatched in Pakistan's and China's backyard even before they are hatched. Forward looking and contingency planning is key to any foreign policy success....

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## nadeemkhan110

Abu Namr said:


> J10 and JF 17 both single engin


 YES J-11 is a Twin engine JET

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## Viper0011.

PakShaheen79 said:


> Russian FM and PAF officials are creating rumors. Interesting. Isn't it?



Everything about Pakistan is a rumor. But every news about India comes from the sacred script written 6000 years ago in the Vedic times and its therefore true beyond questioning  (Rafale as an example, how it started to where it is today)

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## I M Sikander

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Difference between pak FA and SU-35 is pak fa is stealth (design) That's it


But we appreciate that indians are slowly accepting the fact that they cant stop Russia if they go ahead with mig35 deal.

Well come to the real world fellow indians

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## BATTLE FIELD

russia wants to eat mangoes from both's countries tree.


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## Mani2020

batmannow said:


> If that country is not having SU-37 & SU -47S for itself yes they be worried about what the buyer will be doing with their least potential product to them ?
> In Russia case they have more then what you can imagine ?
> By doing that they are getting more funds & new strategic partners who can led them into middle east worsning situation ?
> So it all win win !



Mate by no means we can that easily rate su-35 below to your mentioned aircrafts ...no country likes to be ditched time and time again...and no country wants to loose her sales just because someone else has started to clone their products and supplying to other countries like in case of mig-21s aka f-7s ...Middle east is getting out of their grab...US is starting to have huge influence on middle eastern countries ...look at them most of them were soviet equipment buyers but now look at iraq or other countries they are buying US, French equipment ... india is slowly going into uncle sams camp irrespective of the apparent deals with russia that most of indians brag about here ...the fact is uncle sam wants to pamper india against china ..For US no one is permanent enemy or friend ...they play it as per their interests ...they won't give a damn about you if they dont think you are of any worth to their interest ...russia having a feeling of isolation (especially seeing india go away) is getting close to pakistan not because we have as much money as india but because we are friends to china and china and russia being communists states with common enemy....russia needs china more than they need india ....they are making a new triangle and there is going to be a shift in current world order.... give it sometime , we will see more goodies coming ....for the time being i am sticking to what i said earlier ....if this deal goes through china has lot to do with it

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## I M Sikander

hell__raider said:


> Which Indian official said that Russia will not sell Su-35S to Pakistan. Can you enlighten me.


Then why so much rona dhona on indian side and why all indian butts on fire.

We know how badly the mig 35 and MI 35 helo news hit the indians balls.


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## RealNapster

zebra7 said:


> Yeh tumri samaj naa aayi naa, Ghum le chahi saab duniya,
> Su35 se bhadiya plane na milli hai tum ka khayee.
> 
> We have all Dsi enable al-khalid, we have better sam anja 2 better than akash.
> Janab gurubhai we have money 40bn dollar wiretransfer from china and we have imf, We have Russia, China, Taliban aur *tumare paas kya ha*i.



don't you know ? 
Inky paas maa hay.. 
Gaao-maata


----------



## hell__raider

Ranasikander said:


> Then why so much rona dhona on indian side and why all indian butts on fire.
> 
> We know how badly the mig 35 and MI 35 helo news hit the indians balls.


It would be good if you are able to keep them safe from terrorists.


----------



## dadeechi

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Difference between pak FA and SU-35 is pak fa is stealth (design) That's it



Technical difference between PAK-FA & SU-35 is immaterial. I was highlighting the (potential) failure of India at large.


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## I M Sikander

GURU DUTT said:


> so whats your point
> 
> agar saamne walle ka mu laal hai to kya hum tappar maar ke apna mu bhi laal ker le
> 
> we have a better idea why not make owrself rich enof to buy what we need than asking for khairaat and running to IMF with a kashkoal


would you please tell us when was the last time IMF offered loan to any country for weapon purchase?


----------



## jaiind

I S I said:


> You should do it asap.


i will do it asap after your su 35 asap 



secretservice said:


> it will not make a tiny difference.. i reckon do it now





Abu Namr said:


> So whats make the difference, aunt is threatening an elephant.


It seems that pak is so desperate about su 35


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## I M Sikander

GURU DUTT said:


> well we all do that to make a sucssful deal ... PR my friend PR (advertising) mock indians on therre foriegn policy when russia officialli declares its selling su-35s to pakistan even if you forget about its fly away cost and cost of ownership and mantainence and totalli diffrent training and wepons for it but still


Dont worry about the cost, we arent asking you for help. And we know how to maintain jets. Doesn't need your retarded advice.


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## Viper 94

perhaps the navy will also chip in to help PAF purchase this platform 
any info on how many su-35 are we negotiating for?


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## xyxmt

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.



I suspect something like that, maybe they both wants to get their ullus in place.

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## I M Sikander

hell__raider said:


> It would be good if you are able to keep them safe from terrorists.


Dont worry about them, that isn't your problem. By the way i appreciate that slowly and slowly you have digested the fact that russian can sell weapons to Pakistan and now you are worried about their safety in pakistan.


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## xyxmt

GURU DUTT said:


> well russian always take more than 40% of the deal ammount before first diliverry and almost entire sum of deal till 60% diliverries are made so i dont have to wrry about russians it will be pakistanies who will be worried ..... dont trust indians on it try it yourself...... good luck



once again thank you for sleepless nights over Pakistan's financial issues.
I always wonder, enemies like you who needs friends

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## ganesh623

Muhammad Omar said:


> And what if Putin Shows India 2 Middle Fingers you know India Air force is dependent on Russian Spares ... your MiG 29 Su-30MKI and other wants spares from Russia to operate... Even If Russia and Pakistan Finalize the Deal of Su-35 would you really think that India will back of From all the deals just like that... Even if India does that who's gonna give India Spares of the Current fleet of Yours? Still now Half of your MKI are grounded facing repair issues ..... You guys Bitch just like same when the NEWS came about the Mi-35 Helicopters that India wont let that happen Russia will not give you Mi-35 visit any thread about Mi-35 deal.... Even your Government did protest to Russians and asked them not to give Pakistan Mi-35 But Russia Showed Middle Finger to India Just like that.... Did India Cancelled all of it's deals with Russia? i don't think so... You guys are just making fools of yourself here...
> 
> You guys bitch all day here about Russia won't give you this Russia won't give you that You cannot afford it Where is the money Russia won't give these on Soft Loans LOL
> 
> You Bhindians think that Soft loan is almost equal to Free or Gift.... Soft loan is payment can be extended into few more years it's not it's coming free
> 
> Pakistan is not gonna buy Su-35 in Large numbers like you guys are thinking only 2 squads will come if the talking get materialized that 36-40 jets most probably....
> 
> ACM Sohail is going to Russia next month And Putin in coming to India in December a lot of thing can happen in between that....



You talk too much for nothing. Talk only when you have su-35 painted in green.


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## hell__raider

Ranasikander said:


> Dont worry about them, that isn't your problem. By the way i appreciate that slowly and slowly you have digested the fact that russian can sell weapons to Pakistan and now you are worry about their safety in pakistan.


India is buying the best available weapons from US, France as well as Russia. Its good for India. Why should we worry about Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. US & France used to sell weapons to Pakistan yet we bought weapons from them. No issues.

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## I M Sikander

hell__raider said:


> India is buying the best available weapons from US, France as well as Russia. Its good for India. Why should we worry about Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. US & France used to sell weapons to Pakistan yet we bought them. No issues.


We are also buying weapons from usa , russia, china, france , turkey, south africa.
 
We know how much it matters to india when russia sells high tech weapons to pakistan. 

All indian members are crying in almost 3 dozen threads related to pak russia weapon purchases.

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## hell__raider

Ranasikander said:


> Dont worry about them, that isn't your problem. By the way i appreciate that slowly and slowly you have digested the fact that russian can sell weapons to Pakistan and now you are worry about their safety in pakistan.


India is buying the best available weapons from US, France as well as Russia. Its good for India. Why should we worry about Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. US & France used to sell weapons to Pakistan yet we bought them. No issues.


Ranasikander said:


> We are also buying weapons from usa , russia, china, france , turkey, south africa.
> 
> We know how much it matters to india when russia sells high tech weapons to pakistan.
> 
> All indian members are crying in almost 3 dozen threads related to pak russia weapon purchases.


People who are crying has nothing to do with Indian Defense Forces of Indian Government. They are just ordinary Indians or journalists. Pak is buying Mil-35. We are buying Apache which is better. Pak is buying Su-35. We are buying PAK-FA which is better. Why should we worry. If Pak gets PAK-FA or F-35 & India do not get it we should be worried.


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## I M Sikander

ganesh623 said:


> You talk too much for nothing. Talk only when you have su-35 painted in green.


Vow words of wisdom from indian member.
 
So what the fu...k india and all indian members are doing for the last 10 years regarding MMRCA deal.  
Stop nonsense till iaf gets rafale in indian teeranga.


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## Muhammad Omar

ganesh623 said:


> You talk too much for nothing. Talk only when you have su-35 painted in green.



Wait for that ,,,,


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## ganesh623

Ranasikander said:


> Vow words of wisdom from indian member.
> 
> So what the fu...k india and all indian members are doing for the last 10 years regarding MMRCA deal.
> Stop nonsense till iaf gets rafale in indian teeranga.



Its a official contract, and both parties are officialy negotiating, nothing behind closed doors.
Same cant be said for su-35.


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## dadeechi

graphican said:


> How many units of su-35 do you see coming? I sense some 24-36. What do you guys think?



At a minimum 60


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## notorious_eagle

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck



Calm Down

These are just pressure tactics. Pakistan to pressure the US to release additional F16's and for Russia to pressure India to procure additional MKI's. 

If Pakistan is to procure another platform, it is most likely going to be J10's and J11's and not SU35. Russia will most likely not going to be the most reliable partner when procuring such an expensive and advanced platform like this.

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## Muhammad Omar

dadeechi said:


> At a minimum 60



Nope just 36 -40


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> I don't take anyone word or believe anyone without using my brain. Compare the size of both the plane you will soon realize what i mean.


Comparing the size of your brains is what we are doing now & its still smaller then moodi jee , s burned b@lls ?lolzz
Now I have question why you are so interested in SU-35s even India is not getting it?


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## $@rJen

Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky












Saturday, September 19, 2015

By : Russia India Report




Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.







Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?

The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.

Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.

Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.

Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.

Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.


What can the Su-35 do?

With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.

According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.

He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”

To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.


Diplomatic powwow ::

How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.

However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.

In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.

So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.

India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.

In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.


Stopping the Kozyrevs ::

It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.

Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”

“However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”

Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.

According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.

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## aqjafri

Go Go PAF....Masha Allah We r increasing our capability day by day.... Nazar na lagay mere watan ko insha Allah...world is now recognizes our efforts n ability.

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## batmannow

Ranasikander said:


> We are also buying weapons from usa , russia, china, france , turkey, south africa.
> 
> We know how much it matters to india when russia sells high tech weapons to pakistan.
> 
> All indian members are crying in almost 3 dozen threads related to pak russia weapon purchases.


Crying won't stop Russia giving Pakistan Su35s then why to cry ?lolzz



notorious_eagle said:


> Calm Down
> 
> These are just pressure tactics. Pakistan to pressure the US to release additional F16's and for Russia to pressure India to procure additional MKI's.
> 
> If Pakistan is to procure another platform, it is most likely going to be J10's and J11's and not SU35. Russia will most likely not going to be the most reliable partner when procuring such an expensive and advanced platform like this.


Prove your point that , Pakistan is going to get j10s or j11s ?
Any official link ?



GURU DUTT said:


> and you think just because india is buying western stuff which it always did like china always did with russia ... you think russia will break away or will deliberatelli jeopardise all its interests with india when it fulli knows what you did with chechen rebels and your past dealings with ukrein and indian stand for russia on cremia crisis.... think again


Russia won't be breaking away from India , its India which will shot itself in the foot , by over reacting against Pakistan Russia $u 35 deal ?
India is just on receiving side , it always was & always will be ?



GURU DUTT said:


> as i said saeen ji before ... dont count your chickens till they hatch


As we replied before ,we don't have any chickens ,we have only lions which will see you with your dam broken dreams with PAK FA still far 50 years from now ?lolzz


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## Super Falcon

India is nothing every one seas it as bitch so every one wants a piece of it

Another way there is also pressure from china on russia to be closer with pakistan

If russia lusten india it looses three times bigger buyer what india is and pak to add with it

And if india go closer to russia USA pull indian strings

Russia wants india not buy weapons from its enemy

And in both cases india is looser
And why india is jealous it is bigger than us but its jealousy has no limits

Did we oppose M 777 procurment no because we dont fear but you oppose all our procurments becoz u fear

And india also went to china knees down asking not selling pak any weapons but they refused your oppinion

Every one has right to pricure weapons

India is only country in world which is jealous for neighbors

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## VelocuR

farhan_9909 said:


> Let suppose the cost of Su 35 is $100 Million and we want to buy 36 of them.This still equal to less than 4 Billion dollars
> 
> Pakistan defence budget is almost $8 Billion and is increasing at a rate of 12-15% each year,this mean it would be in excess of 10Billion dollars in the next 2 years.
> 
> So for smaller numbers like 36,money should not be the problem



Plus airbases, infrastractures and training are including - I think $2+ Billion more. 

Anyway, there seems bug issues here, why my first post I created this thread was disappeared?


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## Viper0011.

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck



"can afford to"...?? Its already done.....not sure why there is still denial from you guys end!!! The decision to sell attack heli's and SAMS was it. That should've told you that just like any other business, they'll try to see whatever else they can to another market that actually has a lot of needs. And who they can benefit by investing and reaping serious returns from the growing economy of Pakistan!

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## MadDog

hell__raider said:


> India is buying the best available weapons from US, France as well as Russia. Its good for India. Why should we worry about Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. US & France used to sell weapons to Pakistan yet we bought them. No issues.
> 
> People who are crying has nothing to do with Indian Defense Forces of Indian Government. They are just ordinary Indians or journalists. Pak is buying Mil-35. We are buying Apache which is better. Pak is buying Su-35. We are buying PAK-FA which is better. Why should we worry. If Pak gets PAK-FA or F-35 & India do not get it we should be worried.[/QUOc





hell__raider said:


> India is buying the best available weapons from US, France as well as Russia. Its good for India. Why should we worry about Russia selling weapons to Pakistan. US & France used to sell weapons to Pakistan yet we bought them. No issues.
> 
> People who are crying has nothing to do with Indian Defense Forces of Indian Government. They are just ordinary Indians or journalists. Pak is buying Mil-35. We are buying Apache which is better. Pak is buying Su-35. We are buying PAK-FA which is better. Why should we worry. If Pak gets PAK-FA or F-35 & India do not get it we should be worried.



Chill out Kid chill out , no need to be emotional , you are buying 20 apaches, we are buying 15 AH-1Z Viper gunships , along with a 1000 hellfires, which are equivalent to apaches, infact they can fire air to air missiles which apaches can't.
Don't compare apples with oranges, Mi-35 is not solely for a gunship role, it can also be used to carry troops, for solely gunship purposes, Pak is going for AH-1Z vipers , whose sale has been approved !!!


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## Viper0011.

[Bregs] said:


> This deal will create strategic shift in Indian policy India to what level this remains to be seen. The official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.




Ummm......denial still and much??? The "POLICY" has been changed by the Russians already. No one offers their attack heli's and SAM missile systems if they didn't want the relationship to be developed or go to new heights. 

So yea, the Russian policy changed. If they cared so much about the "Indian Policy", obviously, they would've have taken this step. You can change your policy however you please to. The Russians are looking at the globe and it doesn't require rocket science to know how the US is being used (jobs, outsourcing and all), they are being used to (aircraft carrier know how, nuke subs, jets and DRDO's projects. So why be in a marriage that is clearly showing you a divorce? Let's end it before it hurts too much. Smart thinking on the Russian's end


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## Dalit

ito said:


> Good, this can act as a catalyst for Indians to buy Rafale faster, and other defense procurement too.



Good idea. The Indian acquisitions will on the contrary alsdo serve as a catalyst for the Russians to sell the Su-35s and other military equipment to Pakistan on a much faster note... It's a win-win Abdul Kalamoo. Make the MMRCA deal happen soon because so far it is an utter joke.

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## Gandhi follower

Pakistan can hardly afford it
_
The number of helicopters agreed upon is far lower than expected, however. At Pakistan's biennial defense exhibition IDEAS held in Karachi in December, a representative from Russian Helicopters told Defense News that the number under discussion was "more than five."

Analysts have said the number under discussion was 20.

Khan said Russia's current economic downturn has dictated the reduction in number for the time being.

*"Initial requirement for Mi-35 was for 20 helicopters, which was supported with a line of credit provided by the Russians worth $2 billion," he said. "However, after the sanctions imposed on Russia by the EU and the USA, this line of credit was not possible."*

Consequently, Pakistan's "Ministry of Defense was recently allocated funds to purchase four or five with eventual purchase of 20," Khan said.

Pakistan Finalizes Hind Deal With Russia_


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## hell__raider

MadDog said:


> Chill out Kid chill out , no need to be emotional , you are buying 20 apaches, we are buying 15 AH-1Z Viper gunships , along with a 1000 hellfires, which are equivalent to apaches, infact they can fire air to air missiles which apaches can't.
> Don't compare apples with oranges, Mi-35 is not solely for a gunship role, it can also be used to carry troops, for solely gunship purposes, Pak is going for AH-1Z vipers , whose sale has been approved !!!


We are buying longbow version. It has stinger missile & is better than Viper.


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## Mani2020

notorious_eagle said:


> Calm Down
> 
> These are just pressure tactics. Pakistan to pressure the US to release additional F16's and for Russia to pressure India to procure additional MKI's.
> 
> If Pakistan is to procure another platform, it is most likely going to be J10's and J11's and not SU35. Russia will most likely not going to be the most reliable partner when procuring such an expensive and advanced platform like this.


Mate If it had been j10 or j11 we would have long seen some conclusive evidence... the fact that j10 deal hasn't seen day light since 2006 itself speaks tons about paf not going for j10 and paf official's statement regarding requirement of twin engine aircraft further pushes possibility of j10 away... so with twin engine we have options to either go for j11 or su35... why would you go for the clone when you can buy the original flanker with much advancements? Besides all these flankers share much commonality so even if Russia plays bad we can source many parts from China.... I wish paf love for f16 to fade away now... world has moved on now it's our time to think ahead and not get stuck with f16s


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## Super Falcon

zebra7 said:


> Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the advantages pls?


Speed altitude payload engine radar all are best in bussiness and it is without any upgrade just imagine when its upgrade arrives what it will be

Above all its super manuverability gives its edge over all fighter jets in dog fights

And in bvr fights its radar tracks 6 targets at once at range of 120 km i think

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## Viper0011.

sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter Aircraft to Pakistan, *it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.*
> 
> *According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India.* His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.


There is no major diplomatic rift lol. India has a tendency to use her partners and friends like a toilet paper. The US is next in about next 15 years or so, mark my words. They'll use us for as long as they need our jobs, money and economy. When their GDP grows close to our level and the size of the economy, they'll try to dictate us. Nature of the Indian mentality.

Same recently happened with the Russians and the French. The French were SO pissed off at the Rafale deal that they told India if she didn't purchase the jets, they won't sell other stuff to them, including the Scorpions. Result was that Modi quickly issued an executive order to procure 36 (from over a 120 initially) Rafale jets.

So there is no political rift, its all Indian sponsored propaganda who just don't like the fact that Pakistan and Russia are coming closer. But there is no stopping it either.

Its funny, India can go sell out to uncle Sam for various reasons. But Russia has to be faithful to India. So its like a wife can cheat with another man, but her husband (Russia in this case), has to be faithful to her???? Weird logic!!!

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## dadeechi

sarjenprabhu said:


> It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.





sarjenprabhu said:


> According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.



India's tilt towards the West in the in 1990s was result of Russian tilt towards the West but the current Russian tilt towards China & Pakistan is result of India's continued tilt towards the West inspite of Russia tilting back towards India since 2000

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## $@rJen

Viper0011. said:


> There is no major diplomatic rift lol. India has a tendency to use her partners and friends like a toilet paper. The US is next in about the next 15 years or so, mark my words. They'll use us for as long as they need our jobs, money and economy. When their GDP grows close to our level and the size of the economy, they'll dictate us. Nature of the Indian mentality.
> 
> Same recently happened with the Russians and the French. French was SO pissed off at the Rafale that they told India if she didn't purchase the jets, they won't sell other stuff to them, including Scorpions. Result was Modi quickly issues an executive order to procure 36 (from over a 120 initially) Rafale jets.
> 
> So there is no political rift, its all Indian sponsored propaganda who just don't like the fact that Pakistan and Russia are coming closer. But there is no stopping it either.
> 
> Its funny, India can go sell out to uncle Sam for various reasons. But Russia has to be faithful to India. So its like a wife can cheat with another man, but her husband (Russians in this case), have to be faithful to her???? Weird logic!!!



Oh Look.. finally./... A apkistani Foreign policy expert has Arrived.... We've money we'll do whatever we want from wherever we want....

And Honestly do you really think Pakistan going to get Su-35????


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## بلندر

sarjenprabhu said:


> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?



you don't know Russia ... They just want to scare Indians and stop them from buying Western fighters ...

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## Foxtrot Delta

Kurlang said:


> bhai, plz change font


whats wrong with thi font?


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## $@rJen

بلندر said:


> you don't know Russia ... They just want to scare Indians and stop them from buying Western fighters ...



Dude... But Rafale is gone... Russians can't do anything now... But in future they'll not allow this to happen that way... now FGFA, upgrade of MKi and the big ticket is Next Gen Submarine which must go to russia.. or else they'll surely sell su-35 to pakistan


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> I don't take anyone word or believe anyone without using my brain. Compare the size of both the plane you will soon realize what i mean.


Comparing the size of your brains is what we are doing now & its still smaller then moodi jee , s burned b@lls ?lolzz
Now I have question why you are so interested in SU-35s even India is not getting it?


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## nik22

بلندر said:


> you don't know Russia ... They just want to scare Indians and stop them from buying Western fighters ...


Indian Mandarins are smart enough to understand and tackle this Game.


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## Super Falcon

Today it is all about keep ur enemy guessing we needed to induct twin engine jet earlier anyway with risks we face we should now invest more in SU 35 as we also reduced JF 17 initial order of from 250 to 150 it is defecit of 100 jets

If we use tgat money we can eadily get SU 35 around 30 to 40 with all toys

SU 35 is real watchdog in sky and PAF also keeping eye on transport aircrafts from russia

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## Sipahi

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.



100% agree Sir, they already released 2 of them.... I hope we can take the number to 150 for 83....


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## $@rJen

@Viper0011. tell you what.... you don't quote me now and i won't.. but when this su-35 deal with pakistan goes down i'll create a special thread for you, if the deal went through then you can creat one for me???!!!! What say You???????

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## batmannow

BATTLE FIELD said:


> now finally PAK realize the CAPABILITY'S of sukhoi.
> 
> why, you don't want CHEAP CHINESE COPIED jets now.
> 
> i would recommend it,.. going for twin engine RUSSIAN air superiority jets.
> BETTER than those CHINESE one.
> 
> the problem will be the spare parts.
> 
> HAPPY PURCHASE.


Spares our Chinese friends have a lot ,cause they have these flankers almost a decade ago ?
So don't worry , put your dam.hands together r for su-35s in Pakistani flag camouflage ?lolzz



jaiind said:


> i will do it asap after your su 35 asap
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that pak is so desperate about su 35


No we are not so desperate ,its you Indians getting out of your minds ?lolzz


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## I S I

AtiF Malang said:


> F-35 Lightening ii.
> US would love to roast PakFA by Pakistani F35 . Also F35 will give US the power to pressurize pakistan


He was talking about indian option.

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## dadeechi

Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck



Russia may not want to loose it's biggest customer but the key question is can India afford to loose Russia which is it's key and sole supplier in many cases?

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## Foxtrot Delta

zebra7 said:


> Bhaiya Su35 ke thread ka kya squardon banana hai kya. why don't you stick to one thread
> 
> 
> *No Pak fa can be countered by our matured/tweaked JF17 janab is the rumor.*
> .



no one in the right mind would accept a mig-21 based jf-17 thunder block 3 or 4 can counter su-30 mki leave alone pak fa lol. shows how much people know about aircraft warfare. and rumours are just rumours we need not entertain them, sometimes rumors are meant to be kept a secret. but jf-17 block 2-3 models cant counter su-30 mki thats the majority opnion we shall see in skirmisbes or air war.


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## $@rJen

Super Falcon said:


> Bhaj what issue u have i dont understand
> 
> Tum log dukan se item kharedo tumtu samjhte ho pori dukan hi khareed li
> 
> Sab defence ma free ha jo jisko jo becha tum logo ki tarah chutiya pai nahe karta



Dude.. i don't understand hindi.... but let me say... first viper001 is not a American and he's always mocks India, He also claims Pakistani Foiegn policy is superior to her enemies... which is totally untrue.. he's a self over confident person..


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## prima99

RoadRunner401 said:


> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.
> 
> In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told _IHS Jane's_ in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> *Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> September 18 2015
> 
> *Pakistan is negotiating a deal to purchase Sukhoi-35 'Flanker E' fighter jets from Russia, which is expected to be the largest defense deal between the two countries, according to IHS Jane’s.*
> 
> A senior Pakistani government official confirmed the discussions between Pakistan and Russia regarding the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. However, the official emphasized that it is “too early” to tell whether both countries will reach an agreement.
> 
> *Previous reports indicated that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets.*
> 
> According to the Pakistani official, they are interested in the Su-35 fighter jets because the country’s Air Force needs a twin-engine fighter with the capacity to fly longer range than the JF-17 and to penetrate deeply into the enemy’s territory.
> 
> Pakistan’s Air Force has a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) F16 Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder. China and Pakistan partnered in producing the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.
> 
> *Pakistan strengthening relations with Russia*
> Pakistan has been strengthening its relationship with Russia while facing increasing tensions with the United States regarding its efforts to fight the Islamic militants in the region. The U.S. considers Pakistan as an unreliable partner in fighting terrorist groups.
> 
> Pakistan recently agreed to purchase Mi-35 “Hinde E” attack helicopters from Russia. The Pakistani government did not reveal the details of the deal including the value and schedule for the delivery of the Mi-35 helicopters.
> 
> Last year, Russia and Pakistan signed a bilateral defense cooperation agreement to boost its military-to-military relations. Both countries are expected to sign a technical cooperation agreement for the sale of Russian military equipment to Islamabad.
> 
> Both countries are also expected to sign the North-South gas pipeline agreement by the end of September, according to Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak.
> 
> *India would be extremely upset with Pakistan-Russia deal*
> Defense industry analysts suggested that Russia is willing to sell advance hardware to Pakistan despite its longstanding relationship with India. The Russian government also signed a defense cooperation agreement with the Pakistani government in November last year.
> 
> Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad commented, “The Indians would be extremely upset to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”
> 
> India previously stated that Russia is crossing the “red line” for selling military hardware to Pakistan.
> 
> On the other hand, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emphasized that the country’s relationship with India will no be affected by its expanding military cooperation with Pakistan.
> 
> Ryabkov explained that Russia and Pakistan are close partners, and India will not be jealous on the contract under negotiations involving the Su-35 fighter jets and Mi-35 helicopters.
> 
> Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest



WOW you guys too?? that's great to hear!

but hey! you lacked some flags! the flags should be like this

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## Foxtrot Delta

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> Could you please change your fonts style. Seem very odd or maybe you trying to seek attention.


don't like my font ? you can ignore it and scroll down. every member has the right for showing some personality with display avatars signatures and fonts. i don't see anything wrong with it. if it annyos too many people than may be i would change it. thanks for the advice though, i appriciate it.



prima99 said:


> WOW you guys too?? that's great to hear!
> 
> but hey! you lacked some flags! the flags should be like this


what country does the first flag represent?


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## Quwa

war&peace said:


> Su-35 has a price tag of USD 40-65 millions / unit depending how the list features and capabilities. If only two squadrons are purchased will full configuration (which is the most probable case), the price will lean towards the upper limit and two squadron ( at least two dozens) of Su-35 will cost approx. USD 1.56 billion. However if a bigger deal is signed to procure a larger number of (100+) Su-35s over the next few years (5-10), the unit cost will lean towards the lower limit of USD 40 millions / unit and a manageable payment plan of instalments can be negotiated. Pakistan needs a strong airforce and Navy and it gets essential with CPEC becoming functional in couple of years. Pakistan can well afford USD 20-25 billion for upgrading the air and naval defences of the country. It is necessary and over due. Nukes are good deterrence but we need robust conventional capability too.


That might be the base cost of the aircraft alone, sales tend to include total initial costs (of setting up infrastructure, training, initial set of spare parts, etc). I think if PAF is going to deal with Russia, then they should go ahead and spend a large up front in order to grab maybe 10-15 years worth of spare parts, some attrition aircraft for storage, etc.

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## prima99

Foxtrot Delta said:


> don't like my font ? you can ignore it and scroll down. every member has the right for showing some personality with display avatars signatures and fonts. i don't see anything wrong with it. if it annyos too many people than may be i would change it. thanks for the advice though, i appriciate it.
> 
> 
> what country does the first flag represent?



well my homeland country obviously. we're buying one squadron of SU 35. that makes the three of us. China, Indonesia, and Pakistan, countries that owns Su 35 (aside Russia)

Indonesia to “Prioritize” Su-35 Aircraft Procurement Despite Budget Cuts

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## war&peace

Mark Sien said:


> That might be the base cost of the aircraft alone, sales tend to include total initial costs (of setting up infrastructure, training, initial set of spare parts, etc). I think if PAF is going to deal with Russia, then they should go ahead and spend a large up front in order to grab maybe 10-15 years worth of spare parts, some attrition aircraft for storage, etc.



I would say first they get 3-4 squadrons and test then go for a big deal. I think USD 65 million is not the base price but I may be wrong. But when strategic partnerships are developed, deals can be bargained at whole new levels. US camp has brought only sufferings to Pakistan over decades and this is going to increase as global priorities indicate. Our strategists should and I guess they have already realised. Russia is a more reliable partner than a pure cheat zionist junk USA.


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## Mutakalim

Foxtrot Delta said:


> don't like my font ? you can ignore it and scroll down. every member has the right for showing some personality with display avatars signatures and fonts. i don't see anything wrong with it. if it annyos too many people than may be i would change it. thanks for the advice though, i appriciate it.


Didn't meant to offend you. Whatever you like buddy but seems odd.

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## Quwa

war&peace said:


> I would say first they get 3-4 squadrons and test then go for a big deal. I think USD 65 million is not the base price but I may be wrong. But when strategic partnerships are developed, deals can be bargained at whole new levels. US camp has brought only sufferings to Pakistan over decades and this is going to increase as global priorities indicate. Our strategists should and I guess they have already realised. Russia is a more reliable partner than a pure cheat zionist junk USA.


Agreed.

Also, you raised an interesting point about squadron numbers. It seems PAF tends to start out with 1 or 2 squadrons (30-40 planes) and builds from there. But I wonder if - in addition to 2 squadrons for Southern Air Command - the PAF would pick up a few planes for CCS to serve in DACT. Imagine a seasoned officer flying these against our F-16 and JF-17 pilots day in and day out. And speaking of specialist roles, I wonder if this platform can be developed further to serve as a dedicated EW platform akin to the EA-18 Growler.


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## Foxtrot Delta

prima99 said:


> well my homeland country obviously. we're buying one squadron of SU 35. that makes the three of us. China, Indonesia, and Pakistan, countries that owns Su 35 (aside Russia)
> 
> Indonesia to “Prioritize” Su-35 Aircraft Procurement Despite Budget Cuts



o i see the friendly neighborhood indonesia. i respect indonesia alot, you guys helped Pakistan alot many times. and i read in a chinese news paper that indonesia is the most pro pakistan country in the world, aparently after pakistan indonesians are the most pakistan loving people on the plannet which was heart warming for me.

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## I M Sikander

ganesh623 said:


> Its a official contract, and both parties are officialy negotiating, nothing behind closed doors.
> Same cant be said for su-35.


No contract yet and such negotiations can end in no time like mmrca 120 jet drama.


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## Foxtrot Delta

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> Didn't meant to offend you. Whatever you like buddy but seems odd.


its okay advice taken and acted upon. can't be ofended that easily. especially by a fellow pakistani.

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## prima99

Foxtrot Delta said:


> o i see the friendly neighborhood indonesia. i respect indonesia alot, you guys helped Pakistan alot many times. and i read in a chinese news paper that indonesia is the most pro pakistan country in the world, aparently after pakistan indonesians are the most pakistan loving country on the plannet which was heart warming for me.



exactly!

Indonesia–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan-Indonesia relationship are particularly special, founded on common mutual religious outlook. Indonesia is the world largest Muslim country in terms of its population, whereas Pakistan is the world second largest Muslim country. Both countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation and Developing 8 Countries. Pakistan has an embassy in Jakarta,[1] whereas Indonesia has an embassy in Islamabad,[2] and a Consulate General in Karachi. *According to a 2015 BBC World Service Poll, 80% of Indonesians view Pakistan's influence positively, with 11% expressing a negative view, making Indonesia the most pro-Pakistani nation in the world*.[3]

all thanks to the founding father of Pakistan

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## Viper0011.

sarjenprabhu said:


> *Oh Look.. finally./... A apkistani Foreign policy expert has Arrived*.... We've money we'll do whatever we want from wherever we want....
> 
> And Honestly do you really think Pakistan going to get Su-35????



Do you have balls to handle my personal attacks? Or are you going to call moderators and admin mom and dad and cry about my response to your personal insults???? That's what ALL of your cousins do. Let me ask the administration before I respond.

@Horus @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @Slav Defence @Oscar : guys - read the bold part from the above post. I deal with these personal attacks all day long from the entire Indian community. No matter how factual the issue is. I don't complain, so why do these guys go and cry over my responses to these kind of personal attacks? 

May want to start paying attention on how this cycle starts. I am not responding to this one but I am also a human. Too many of these and I'll at some point be forced to respond and then these guys would report it as personal attacks. This trend needs to stop, a good discussion has just been ruined!!! (another one actually)!!

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## Muhammad Omar

but still India has gone for Rafales 36 of them Also 3.1 billion dollar deal is about to signed for 22 Apache and Chinook Heavy lift Helicopter won't Russia is looking for that to? 

Plus Why India would say food bye to Russia who's gonna give the Spares of MKI MiG 29 Su-27 ??? Even Most of the things in India is Russian made (military equipment) 
I Don't think India can say bye bye to Russia just like that....


Article has a lot of IF and But 

We all have to wait for the official Statement from Russia Everything now is just pure speculations

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## New World

zebra7 said:


> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of *our* Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MK


janab app Kab se our ban gye??

@Irfan Baloch @Horus @waz


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## Irfan Baloch

sarjenprabhu said:


> Dude.. i don't understand hindi.... but let me say... first viper001 is not a American and he's always mocks India, He also claims Pakistani Foiegn policy is superior to her enemies... which is totally untrue.. he's a self over confident person..


very good .. seems like a poster who brings a lot on the table for a good debate. 
do you feel threatened or just saying it since you cant handle him?

@Viper0011. how you can mock other countries and be over confident when you are allegedly not American?

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## ni8mare

Viper0011. said:


> Do you have balls to handle my personal attacks? Or are you guys to call moderator and admin mom and dad and cry about my response to your personal insults???? That's what ALL of your cousins do. Let me ask the administration before I respond.
> 
> @Horus @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @Slav Defence @Oscar : guys - read the bold part from the above post. I deal with these personal attacks all day long from the entire Indian community. No matter how factual the issue is. I don't complain, so why do these guys go and cry over my responses to these kind of personal attacks?
> May want to start paying attention on how this cycle starts. I am not responding to this one but I am also a human. Too many of these and I'll at some point be forced to respond and then these guys would report it as personal attacks. This trend needs to stop, a good discussion has just been ruined!!! (another one actually)!!


..........stop crying 
there is no '' personal attack "..............he only criticized your highly expert BS

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## Bornubus

Lamo we have taken Russia by GDP numbers apart from the other joint collaboration with Russia,the world is open for us to business let see what happen after the delivery of few Mi 35.


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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> very good .. seems like a poster who brings a lot on the table for a good debate.
> do you feel threatened or just saying it since you cant handle him?
> 
> @Viper0011. how you can mock other countries and be over confident when you are allegedly not American?


Irfan saab,
No one feels threatened for any of it, It is the impunity of off-topic rants, and religious insults that this member would regularly cross with impunity, which indian members here won't. Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member does on hinduism and vedas?
It's out of decency that most Senior Indian members do not cross that threshold. As far as his actual content is concerned, he is more than welcome to bring it on, you have very well seen what happens when I address any of his "content"

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## ni8mare

Irfan Baloch said:


> very good .. seems like a poster who brings a lot on the table for a good debate.
> do you feel threatened or just saying it since you cant handle him?
> 
> @Viper0011. how you can mock other countries and be over confident when you are allegedly not American?


Can you give this answer .....Why he doesn't have a pakistani flag when @Abingdonboy 's flag was changed under pertext that he has indian origin ??

And more over he continued to insult Hinduism without any issue ..............he has habit of bringing religion even in pure technical threads why is that ???
would you think same can be stand wrt to insult to Islam? .............we know the answer

@WebMaster

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## khakhi_chaddi

Viper0011. said:


> There is no major diplomatic rift lol. India has a tendency to use her partners and friends like a toilet paper. The US is next in about the next 15 years or so, mark my words. They'll use us for as long as they need our jobs, money and economy. When their GDP grows close to our level and the size of the economy, they'll dictate us. Nature of the Indian mentality.
> 
> Same recently happened with the Russians and the French. French was SO pissed off at the Rafale that they told India if she didn't purchase the jets, they won't sell other stuff to them, including Scorpions. Result was Modi quickly issues an executive order to procure 36 (from over a 120 initially) Rafale jets.
> 
> So there is no political rift, its all Indian sponsored propaganda who just don't like the fact that Pakistan and Russia are coming closer. But there is no stopping it either.
> 
> Its funny, India can go sell out to uncle Sam for various reasons. But Russia has to be faithful to India. So its like a wife can cheat with another man, but her husband (Russians in this case), have to be faithful to her???? Weird logic!!!


India does not have any issue with Russia selling Su-35 to Pakistan. We are getting PAK-FA.


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## Great Sachin

dadeechi said:


> And what would be the alternative to PAK-FA?


We can buy more Rafale


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## Irfan Baloch

Viper0011. said:


> *So there is no political rift, its all Indian sponsored propaganda *who just don't like the fact that Pakistan and Russia are coming closer. But there is no stopping it either.
> 
> Its funny, India can go sell out to uncle Sam for various reasons. But Russia has to be faithful to India. So its like a wife can cheat with another man, but her husband (Russians in this case), have to be faithful to her???? Weird logic!!!


there is no denying that India excels in that department and even manages to fool iits own people who eat its propoganda like sacred Bhojan no matter how crappy it is

case in point.

their border forces continue to shell and fire at Pakistani villages along the international borders in Punjab... and then they somehow explain it due to the alleged infiltration of Kashmiri militants hundreds of miles away along the LoC in Kashmir.

another case in point

some Indians are so freaked out about a news item about possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan that its still being discussed to death since it originally came out a month or so ago and they also try to act cool and convince themselves that such thing wont ever happen. call it paranoia or lack of confidence or whatever but we in Pakistan would have moved on by now when this news first time came out but they wont let go telling each other that this wont happen.

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## MilSpec

ni8mare said:


> Can you give this answer .....Why he doesn't have a pakistani flag when @Abingdonboy 's flag was changed under pertext that he has indian origin
> 
> And more over he continued to insult hinduism without any issue ..............he has habit of bringing religion even in pure technical threads why is that ???


I too have always wondered about that, @WebMaster



Irfan Baloch said:


> some Indians are so freaked out about a news item about possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan that its still being discussed to death since it originally came out a month or so ago and they also try to act cool and convince themselves that such thing wont ever happen. call it paranoia or lack of confidence or whatever but we in Pakistan would have moved on by now when this news first time came out but they wont let go telling each other that this wont happen.


It is not about being freaked out, it is as ridicuolous as China selling J10B's to India....and thus the ridiculousness attracts the rebuttals. But then when members come out here and say that they know the chiefs of staff personally and they have confirmed it to them over phone calls, it will derive responses.

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## Viper0011.

khakhi_chaddi said:


> India does not have any issue with Russia selling Su-35 to Pakistan. We are getting PAK-FA.



Are you sure? The entire world doesn't agree with you. The following is JUST one source. The truth is, you guys don't know WTF to do in this situation. It went VERY quickly out of your control. You thought this would be a few MI's and a few smaller SAM deals. And you miscalculated the Russian might. I've watched how Russians act (with US throughout decades). Russians are VERY egoistic people, you piss them off, they don't care about anything, and I mean ANYTHING including a nuke war like they tried to start a few times but some sane heads prevailed and peace won at the end.

So they made a strategy shift. India just has to live with it. Nothing you can do. Its funny to see some Indian in denial, some in anger, some in WTF mode and some in "we don't care". But the matter of the fact is, this is another "holly shiit" moment for the Indian establishment. Just take a look at the number of Indian members posting here and I am watching many other places globally and have talked to people from India who's direct family members at General levels. The truth is entire frustration, anger and WTF. Don't fukk with the Russian bear. You made them feel like a toilet paper and they learned the lesson. The Bear now wants to give whatever it is that Pakistan wants 

Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Fighter Jet Deal Potentially The Largest

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## SQ8

MilSpec said:


> As far as the SU35 issue is concerned, I am not even slightly concerned. It is exactly as idiotic as other hypothesis floating around on this forum.
> 
> regards


Its a threat, if nothing else regarding the MMRCA and how that played out. Them russians dont like losing their vodka money.

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## war&peace

Mark Sien said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also, you raised an interesting point about squadron numbers. It seems PAF tends to start out with 1 or 2 squadrons (30-40 planes) and builds from there. But I wonder if - in addition to 2 squadrons for Southern Air Command - the PAF would pick up a few planes for CCS to serve in DACT. Imagine a seasoned officer flying these against our F-16 and JF-17 pilots day in and day out. And speaking of specialist roles, I wonder if this platform can be developed further to serve as a dedicated EW platform akin to the EA-18 Growler.


It is essential for Pak Navy but it is must for PAF too to have a few squadrons of Su-35. A formation of 3-4 JF-17, 1-2 F-16 and 1 Su-35 can deliver a very strong punch by using the datalinking between the aircrafts. The superior radar of Su-35 (actually the best and most powerful) can see the enemy at a very long distance and sharing this info with its minor brothers can increase their effectiveness many fold and hence act like a true force multiplier. Thus we don't need a lot Su-35 to be flying and still getting the air dominance over the enemy. Yes with its huge carrying capacity (34000 kgs) it can perform any job you throw at it.

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## Foxtrot Delta

Yea apparently Chinese Media Was so jealous of this news back some months ago that they released chinese survery data. it states that chinese Population you would expect to be more than 90% to be Pro Pakistan while its not true because indonesia aparenty has a more pro Pakistan population According to BBC and American Media, indonesian population has 80+%tile of pro Pakistani People in the country. while china seems is less than 80% which was sad for chinese who expect it to be more than 90% or wanted it to be more than 90% in china. i cant post links because of my new Account but i took a screeshot of that news article.this is an online suevery though.

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## Xenophon

Cry me a river . u can sign deals with Usa but russia cant sign deal with us  . by the way india need Russia ( for parts and other stuff ) more then Russian need them . ...



Use burnol .


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## Viper0011.

Irfan Baloch said:


> very good .. seems like a poster who brings a lot on the table for a good debate.
> do you feel threatened or just saying it since you cant handle him?
> 
> @Viper0011. how you can mock other countries and be over confident when you are allegedly not American?



To get a proof of my nationality, allegiance and the flags I salute and would bleed for if need be are underneath the mighty B-2's picture in my signatures (in case someone "missed", its ). I can't provide you anything else. I guess we can all go to a local US court and I can provide proofs in front of a judge to support it. By the way, the Indians will have to cover for my time and cost, like it is a standard in the US court. If someone is accused and its proven wrong, the other party will be penalized for damages, attorney fees and all. So if the Indian members are willing to foot the bill, I can file a petition in any Southern US state. By the way, this is such stupid topic, to be honest!!

By the way, it doesn't take long to understand that the entire Indian community is having a hard time in handling me. If you go through threads, its me vs. India (like Rocky 4, the US vs. Russia and the wins, just like on here). By the way, I am saying this in a light way, not arrogant or anything. 

So, the Indian members need to unfortunately deal with me on posts. If you miss-represent facts and I know them, I'll write them. There is no need to call me anything else. Just respond with counter facts and if you prove me wrong, I'll apologize and STFU. Simple is that. However, you insult my country and my allegiance, I'll be 10 times more mean. I am a firm believer in US Army's slogan "an Army of one "

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## $@rJen

Irfan Baloch said:


> very good .. seems like a poster who brings a lot on the table for a good debate.
> do you feel threatened or just saying it since you cant handle him?
> 
> @Viper0011. how you can mock other countries and be over confident when you are allegedly not American?



You can handle a guy who accepts the reality not the guy who refuses the whole truth.. and he might be a American... but not real american... He's a American Pakistani..


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## nadeemkhan110

Viper0011. said:


> There is no major diplomatic rift lol. India has a tendency to use her partners and friends like a toilet paper. The US is next in about the next 15 years or so, mark my words. They'll use us for as long as they need our jobs, money and economy. When their GDP grows close to our level and the size of the economy, they'll dictate us. Nature of the Indian mentality.
> 
> Same recently happened with the Russians and the French. The French were SO pissed off at the Rafale deal that they told India if she didn't purchase the jets, they won't sell other stuff to them, including Scorpions. Result was Modi quickly issued an executive order to procure 36 (from over a 120 initially) Rafale jets.
> 
> So there is no political rift, its all Indian sponsored propaganda who just don't like the fact that Pakistan and Russia are coming closer. But there is no stopping it either.
> 
> Its funny, India can go sell out to uncle Sam for various reasons. But Russia has to be faithful to India. So its like a wife can cheat with another man, but her husband (Russians in this case), have to be faithful to her???? Weird logic!!!


 100% agree WITH VIPER
and
INDIAN FOREIGN POLICY IS USE IT AND THROW IT

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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Its a threat, if nothing else regarding the MMRCA and how that played out. Them russians dont like losing their vodka money.


Or rather, shoddy journalism being recycled just as 40 billion ollar Potus vist, and lost in translation reboot of of D.fM of russia ....
Remember, MMRCA is chum change compared to FGFA, and look up the Mig29 documentary, pogosev and korotkov, main fight was to keep Mig29M alive, it did not happen as the 35 but as the 29K and MoD fully supported it, even though SU platform would have better logistical support.

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## Viper0011.

sarjenprabhu said:


> From all my past experience with you.. I'm telling you this.. I never reported you for the personnel attacks or called on the mods but its you.. who everytime call someone.. even Now, look at homay guys you're calling... the thing is you don't know nothing you just assume this and that... and you never agree to the reality that's why i don't bother about you but read the first line of the first reply you gave me... !!! @WebMaster @Horus you better delete ths thread



I didn't call and I didn't derail the thread. I responded to your Indian friend's post with fact. You then invited all the mods or one of your friends did. Don't know and don't care. 

I wish you guys can just debate on facts vs. getting all personal. If you can't handle me with facts, you don't have to respond. Move on to the next post. 

Why do the threads need to be deleted because you guys don't follow rules? I think people who don't follow rules and flame first, should be banned. I believe in respect and courtesy for everything. But you attack my personally, my flags nd all, boy you'll get a response back!


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## imran rashid

sarjenprabhu said:


> We've money we'll do whatever we want from wherever we want....


jb tm khud ksi se bhe ly sakty ho to hmari purchase pe rona keun shuru kar deya ha, Kya russia tmhara bap ha jo hm us se kuch nhi ly sakty. r isi tarah jealous r proxy wars karty rho


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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> Russians are VERY egoistic people, you piss them off, they don't care about anything, and I mean ANYTHING including a nuke war like they tried to start a few times but some sane heads prevailed and peace won at the end.



Are you sure, multiple de-classified US state department memos show otherwise. The closest the world came to annihilation was in Cuban Crisis when JFK threatened Nikita Khrushchev with Nukes. 

That is besides the fact US is the only country to have actually used nukes. Please read about the history of your country before you go all self righteous.

Regards

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## imran rashid

sarjenprabhu said:


> We've money we'll do whatever we want from wherever we want....


jb tm khud ksi se bhe ly sakty ho to hmari purchase pe rona keun shuru kar deya ha, Kya russia tmhara bap ha jo hm us se kuch nhi ly sakty. r isi tarah jealous r proxy wars karty rho


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## nangyale

During the closing phases of the cold war and even right after it, the Russians weren't too keen on selling their top line military equipment to China. Then VVP became president and he gave the go ahead to anything and everything that the Chinese wanted and they suddenly became the biggest importers of Russian defence equipment.
I think a similar moment is arriving in the Russo-Pak relationship. 
The Indians can cry, or they can cancel their orders (which is next to impossible) but the Russian establishment has decided to deal with Pakistan on an open basis and their nothing that the Indians can do about it.;


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## $@rJen

Viper0011. said:


> I didn't call and I didn't derail the thread. I responded to your Indian friend's post with fact. You then invited all the mods or one of your friends did. Don't know and don't care.
> 
> I wish you guys can just debate on facts vs. getting all personal. If you can't handle me with facts, you don't have to respond. Move on to the next post.
> 
> Why do the threads need to be deleted because you guys don't follow rules? I think people who don't follow rules and flame first, should be banned. I believe in respect and courtesy for everything. But you attack my personally, my flags nd all, boy you'll get a response back!



Dear lord!!! How is it even possible.... why don't you go and check the first page!!?? your first reply was for me and your first line itself insult.... and none of the Indian users called mods or any one.. it was once agin you who called Horus,Wedmaster Irfan and ect...


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## Foxtrot Delta

too many threads with the same title. people fighting not good not good.


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## ni8mare

Muhammad Omar said:


> but still India has gone for Rafales 36 of them Also 3.1 billion dollar deal is about to signed for 22 Apache and Chinook Heavy lift Helicopter won't Russia is looking for that to?


Exactly ...........buying from America france or russia is to veto any sell to pakistan.....

*What we are getting from russia:*

PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
TANKS = 5 BN
Brahmos JV program
Mig29K
HELICOPTER=4BN
FRIGATE = 3BN
NUKE SUB=1BN
SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC

this above are confirmed ...........and thats atleast 50 bn we are talking about

What are we may get :
Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn
SUBs deal = 10 bn
Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)
ACC upgrde=??

So you can see we are not abounding Russia or something .......there is no not buying from russia as you are thinking 



> Plus Why India would say food bye to Russia who's gonna give the Spares of MKI MiG 29 Su-27 ??? Even Most of the things in India is Russian made (military equipment)
> I Don't think India can say bye bye to Russia just like that....



As i said there is aleast 60-70 bn is involved ,,,,,,,,,which can easily veto any sell to pakistan 
lets wait for Nov vist of modi to russia things will get clear

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## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Are you sure, multiple de-classified US state department memos show otherwise. The closest the world came to annihilation was in Cuban Crisis when JFK threatened Nikita Khrushchev with Nukes.
> 
> That is besides the fact US is the only country to have actually used nukes. Please read about the history of your country before you go all self righteous



When two super powers get into a clash or near clash, these things you are mentioning are verbally communicated out of anger and emotions. Doesn't mean they were true. It was more like a reality check for both to calm down and resolve issues through dialogue.

On the other topic, It was the WWII. Not India and Pakistan wars. And second, because a mistake or two were made almost a little less than a CENTURY ago, doesn't mean it has to be repeated again. The US since WWII has kept some order in the world. No matter how you debate it, its a fact. No one but the US would've been able to maintain control over all territories and the fact is, the world's business, economies and industries grew in this time. Its a part of the human history.

I am not a fan of ONE person getting hurt in a war personally, but in wars, things happen beyond control. So my advise to you, is to work with Pakistanis and get into trade. There is no ending to this macho-men crap you both are doing and no one wins. However, if trade and peace is given a priority and its actually established, ALL humans living inside India and Pakistan win and grow and create more successful and peaceful future for their next generations to come.



sarjenprabhu said:


> Dear lord!!! How is it even possible.... why don't you go and check the first page!!?? your first reply was for me and your first line itself insult.... and none of the Indian users called mods or any one.. it was once agin you who called Horus,Wedmaster Irfan and ect...



Ok......I am sorry. I deal with like a billion of you a day. Names and shapes get mixed up sometimes.

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## SQ8

MilSpec said:


> Or rather, shoddy journalism being recycled just as 40 billion ollar Potus vist, and lost in translation reboot of of D.fM of russia ....
> Remember, MMRCA is chum change compared to FGFA, and look up the Mig29 documentary, pogosev and korotkov, main fight was to keep Mig29M alive, it did not happen as the 35 but as the 29K and MoD fully supported it, even though SU platform would have better logistical support.



There is a small change in attitudes, but as such.. it will be confined to the Mi-35 and continued Mi-17 support. Something that even the Russians are not going to budge from as they want their say in the new Af-Pak game.

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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> When two super powers get into a clash or near clash, these things you are mentioning are verbally communicated out of anger and emotions. Doesn't mean they were true. It was more like a reality check for both to calm down and resolve issues through dialogue.
> 
> On the other topic, It was the WWII. Not India and Pakistan wars. And second, because a mistake or two were made almost a little less than a CENTURY, doesn't mean it has to be repeated and all. The US since WWII has kept some order in the world. No matter how you debate it, its a fact.
> 
> I am not a fan of ONE person getting hurt in a war personally, but in wars, things happen beyond control. So my advise to you, is to work with Pakistanis and get into trade. There is no ending to this macho men crap you both are doing and no one wins. However, if trade and peace is given a priority and established, ALL humans living inside India and Pakistan win.



I appreciate the second part of your post. 

However just for heck of it - You don't calm things when you threaten the other side with nukes - that is escalation. 

That's all

Regards


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## $@rJen

Viper0011. said:


> Ok......I am sorry. I deal with like a billion of you a day. Names and shapes get mixed up sometimes.



See another insult... anyway i'm still waiting for your quote for the reply MilSpec gave you.... ..


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## nangyale

ni8mare said:


> Exactly ...........buying from America france or russia is to veto any sell to pakistan.....
> 
> *What we are getting from russia:*
> 
> PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
> TANKS = 5 BN
> Brahmos JV program
> Mig29K
> HELICOPTER=4BN
> FRIGATE = 3BN
> NUKE SUB=1BN
> SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
> MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
> 
> this above are confirmed ...........and thats atleast 50 bn we are talking about
> 
> What are we may get :
> Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn
> SUBs deal = 10 bn
> Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
> Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)
> ACC upgrde=??
> 
> So you can see we are not abounding Russia or something .......there is no not buying from russia as you are thinking
> 
> 
> 
> As i said there is aleast 60-70 bn is involved ,,,,,,,,,which can easily veto any sell to pakistan
> lets wait for Nov vist of modi to russia things will get clear



So are you saying that India will cancel all those deals if Russia start selling top line military equipment to Pakistan?
Just trying to get some clarity to what is behind the list you just posted.


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## SipahSalar

Truth is, Block 52 F-16 is way ahead of anything Russia has to offer. Sure it can maneuver pretty well, but the avionics and sensors suite in Block 52 is at the top of the food chain. The only reason Pakistan is looking at the Su-35 is because of its *twin engines.* The other option would have been to go for the F-15's, but they are way too expensive.

I suspect, Pakistan will never buy Su-35's, those beasts need several hours of maintenance for every hour flown, and from what i know of PAF, they like to keep it simple with no hala gula.

As for jeopardizing Rus-India relationship, Russia does not give a rats dropping about it. They sold Su-30MKIs to China, and not to mention S-400. Do you think India did not whine and complain about those deals? Sure it did, but Russia don't give a fk. Yoga will go a long way to help alleviate India's pain.


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## ni8mare

imran rashid said:


> Shame on your all funding. Ask your Stupid & most corrupted leaders who always want war, that they should make reasonable employment opportunities for phD students otherwise they will apply sweeper instead cerks, aesy yahan barkein r shokhyan na maro


don't bring stupid issue into a defence thread ....india spend 1.8 % of GDP where as pak spend 3.5% of GDP
so tell these BS to your corrupt noora.............



nangyale said:


> So are you saying that India will cancel all those deals if Russia start selling top line military equipment to Pakistan?
> Just trying to get some clarity to what is behind the list you just posted.


Where i said even something like that................As i said we could Veto any sell to pak because we are buying at least 50 bn of equipment


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## nangyale

ni8mare said:


> d
> 
> 
> 
> Where i said even something like that................As i said we could Veto any sell to pak because we are buying at least 50 bn of equipment



So what's the threat then. 
What if the Russians say screw you we are selling to Pakistan the same way we are selling to China.
The same way US is selling to both India and Pakistan. 
What would you do cancel all your orders or just keep on whinging?


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## SQ8

There is one thing to be kept in mind however. If tomorrow the Russians do decide to sell the Su-35, they can and will despite all Indian protests; since India really cannot do anything about it. 

The reasons for that are the existing massive contracts that India already has with Russia. While from the persepctive of many Indian members it would seem as if India has Russia in a fix; so does Russia have India in the fix. That billion invested in those weapons is an investment of both time and money. Time is the most important commodity here as those weapons represent a capability that the Indian military forces cannot afford to delay or lose. They cannot leverage stepping out of those contracts because that puts a dent in their capability. A capability that INDIA WANTS FROM RUSSIA.

Which is why, despite India's protests.. the US still sells to Pakistan. and will also sell to India. Is it possible(unlikely as it may seem w.r.t Su-35) that Russia is taking the same path as the US?

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## ni8mare

SipahSalar said:


> Yoga will go a long way to help alleviate India's pain.


@Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @blain2 @Oscar sir ....why all time religion is bought with out any issue ? 

Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member or other member does on hinduism and vedas?


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## nangyale

ni8mare said:


> d
> 
> 
> 
> Where i said even something like that................As i said we could Veto any sell to pak because we are buying at least 50 bn of equipment



So what's the threat then?
What if the Russians say screw you we are selling to Pakistan the same way we are selling to China.
The same way US is selling to both India and Pakistan.
What would you do cancel all your orders or just keep on whinging?


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## Johny D

lol..Pakistan seems to be in hurry to get trapped ...I got to know from sources its kind of strategic honey-trap in the form of Weapons of atmost national importance to Pakistan for which India has agreed to pay huge sum to Russia...enjoy the bird and dont cry when it will shit on your face ....rofl....


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## Muhammad Omar

ni8mare said:


> Exactly ...........buying from America france or russia is to veto any sell to pakistan.....
> 
> *What we are getting from russia:*
> 
> PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
> TANKS = 5 BN
> Brahmos JV program
> Mig29K
> HELICOPTER=4BN
> FRIGATE = 3BN
> NUKE SUB=1BN
> SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
> MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
> 
> this above are confirmed ...........and thats atleast 50 bn we are talking about
> 
> What are we may get :
> Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn
> SUBs deal = 10 bn
> Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
> Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)
> ACC upgrde=??
> 
> So you can see we are not abounding Russia or something .......there is no not buying from russia as you are thinking
> 
> 
> 
> As i said there is aleast 60-70 bn is involved ,,,,,,,,,which can easily veto any sell to pakistan
> lets wait for Nov vist of modi to russia things will get clear



So do you really think India would Cancel All these 50-60 Billion deals in jiffy to stop few billion deal of Pakistan?


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## ni8mare

nangyale said:


> So what's the threat then.
> What if the Russians say screw you we are selling to Pakistan the same way we are selling to China.
> The same way US is selling to both India and Pakistan.
> What would you do cancel all your orders or just keep on whinging?


what they are selling to you that are considered threat to India ?


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## SQ8

ni8mare said:


> @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @blain2 @Oscar sir ....why all time religion is bought with out any issue ?
> 
> Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member or other member does on hinduism and vedas?


Is Yoga part of religion or a cultural heritage? I am a Muslim and I practice Yoga for relaxation.I consider it a cultural inheritance that is both beyond and unliked to my faith Please stop this nonsense ownership of everything in South Asian culture to have something to do with the Hindu religion; or are you implying that all Hinduism is a just a culture and not a system of beliefs? 

Yoga is a relaxing ideal, and while I do not condone the member's post.. its not offensive considering the response by Indian members.

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## nangyale

ni8mare said:


> what they are selling to you that are considered threat to India ?


Goodness me.
I am saying what would you do in that case.
What would be your threat to Russia, where is the veto?
Gosh use your brain a bit.


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## SipahSalar

ni8mare said:


> @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @blain2 @Oscar sir ....why all time religion is bought with out any issue ?
> 
> Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member or other member does on hinduism and vedas?


What do you find insulting in the comment? Isn't modi's government actively promoting Yoga and it's supposed benefits? 
India yoga: PM Narendra Modi leads thousands in celebration - BBC News

One of the often advertised benefit is alleviation of pain, so what's wrong in suggesting someone to use it to help ease their suffering?

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## Gandhi follower

Oscar said:


> There is one thing to be kept in mind however. If tomorrow the Russians do decide to sell the Su-35, they can and will despite all Indian protests; since India really cannot do anything about it.
> 
> The reasons for that are the existing massive contracts that India already has with Russia. While from the persepctive of many Indian members it would seem as if India has Russia in a fix; so does Russia have India in the fix. That billion invested in those weapons is an investment of both time and money. Time is the most important commodity here as those weapons represent a capability that the Indian military forces cannot afford to delay or lose. They cannot leverage stepping out of those contracts because that puts a dent in their capability. A capability that INDIA WANTS FROM RUSSIA.
> 
> Which is why, despite India's protests.. the US still sells to Pakistan. and will also sell to India. Is it possible(unlikely as it may seem w.r.t Su-35) that Russia is taking the same path as the US?



You dont have money to buy it. You wanted to buy 20 mi 35 but settled for 4. Because you dont have money.


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## $@rJen

nangyale said:


> So are you saying that India will cancel all those deals if Russia start selling top line military equipment to Pakistan?
> Just trying to get some clarity to what is behind the list you just posted.



No... We'll give sub deal to someone else... russia looses 8-10 billion which they can't afford to.. then there're plenty to come, if they want they have to change their mindset... we've so much option to buy but they don't have so much options to sell... India can never be replaced by Pakistan in defence purchase.


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## SQ8

Gandhi follower said:


> You dont have money to buy it. You wanted to buy 20 mi 35 but settled for 4. Because you dont have money.



Do you have a statement of the Army's procurement budget or the Air Force's procurement budget which shows the current finances vis-a-vis cash and liquid assets to prove that or in case you dont are willing to admit that you are just a low grade one line poster?

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> There is one thing to be kept in mind however. If tomorrow the Russians do decide to sell the Su-35, they can and will despite all Indian protests; since India really cannot do anything about it.
> 
> The reasons for that are the existing massive contracts that India already has with Russia. While from the persepctive of many Indian members it would seem as if India has Russia in a fix; so does Russia have India in the fix. That billion invested in those weapons is an investment of both time and money. Time is the most important commodity here as those weapons represent a capability that the Indian military forces cannot afford to delay or lose. They cannot leverage stepping out of those contracts because that puts a dent in their capability. A capability that INDIA WANTS FROM RUSSIA.
> 
> Which is why, despite India's protests.. the US still sells to Pakistan. and will also sell to India. Is it possible(unlikely as it may seem w.r.t Su-35) that Russia is taking the same path as the US?




Indians have zero leverage over Russians. How desperate were they when they needed the ACC and paid hundreds of millions more to get it ready, above and beyond the nominal cost? Clearly then, It is India that needs a continued relationship with Russia for it's existing and future defense needs.

MKIs still require Russian support, as evident by the recent crash, and as for the T90s, they too will. India cannot build anything to rival Russia on that level and switching to USA or West is going to be cost and time prohibitive. How many years did it take India to pin down the MMRCA contractor, even though everyone knew from day one that India will got with the west this time and not Russia.

Now, when it comes to strategic aims, no country will give up priceless gains. Partners in international politics change. Iran went from being a close partner for the USA to a pariah state. Didn't Russia sell technology to China, a direct adversary of India? So why are Sales to Pakistan such confusing for these idiots?

Every time you read a post about Russia selling something, Indians bullshyt their way in with oh India has this and that billions tied up. Yea, tied up. Good luck cancelling them. We'll see how your already decades behind procurement runs then.

As if the Russians didn't anticipate Indian heart burns when and if they ever considered selling Su35 to Pakistan or Mi35s. If it was up to the Indians, they wouldn't even want Mi17s to be sold to Pakistan.

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## SQ8

sarjenprabhu said:


> No... We'll give sub deal to someone else... russia looses 8-10 billion which they can't afford to.. then there're plenty to come, if they want they have to change their mindset... we've so much option to buy but they don't have so much options to sell... India can never be replaced by Pakistan in defence purchase.


How do they lose it?
Please explain.

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## Khanivore

ni8mare said:


> @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @blain2 @Oscar *sir ....why all time religion is bought with out any issue ? *
> 
> Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member or other member does on hinduism and vedas?


Yoga is a religion now?


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## nangyale

It's not about the money money money
We don't need your money money money
We just wanna make the Yandoo dance
Forget about the price tag
Ain't about the uh cha-ching cha-ching
Ain't about the yeah b-bling b-bling
Wanna make the Yandoo dance
Forget about the price tag



Gandhi follower said:


> You dont have money to buy it. You wanted to buy 20 mi 35 but settled for 4. Because you dont have money.


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## ni8mare

Muhammad Omar said:


> So do you really think India would Cancel All these 50-60 Billion deals in jiffy to stop few billion deal of Pakistan?





nangyale said:


> So what's the threat then?
> What if the Russians say screw you we are selling to Pakistan the same way we are selling to China.
> The same way US is selling to both India and Pakistan.
> What would you do cancel all your orders or just keep on whinging?


No ....India cannot effort to call off any deal wrt to Russia ...which is true

even if russia sells pak SU-35 whcih is a threat (not a big one).......then we have to invest in Very long air defence which will take care of the Su- 35 easily .....like SM-6 or S-400



Oscar said:


> Is Yoga part of religion or a cultural heritage? I am a Muslim and I practice Yoga for relaxation.I consider it a cultural inheritance that is both beyond and unliked to my faith Please stop this nonsense ownership of everything in South Asian culture to have something to do with the Hindu religion; or are you implying that all Hinduism is a just a culture and not a system of beliefs?
> 
> Yoga is a relaxing ideal, and while I do not condone the member's post.. its not offensive considering the response by Indian members.


what you have said is true .....but it not just Yoga any culture which is related to Hinduism... which you even know

like @Viper0011. who uses religion and personal attack.....not just indian member but also pakistnai member too


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## $@rJen

Oscar said:


> How do they lose it?
> Please explain.



Sir the answer is in the first line itself.... Next Gen Sub deal


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## Muhammad Omar

Gandhi follower said:


> You dont have money to buy it. You wanted to buy 20 mi 35 but settled for 4. Because you dont have money.



oh please read the news again the number will increase it was initial order,,, and defence minister said we can buy 10-12 easily

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## SQ8

sarjenprabhu said:


> Sir the answer is in the first line itself.... Next Gen Sub deal


No it wont. If the Russians are offering the best offer, India will take it. Or are you saying that Indians are so spiteful that they will willingly take an inferior product just as revenge for what is going to be a minuscle contract, that such a pithy mentality exists? 

I doubt that. Pakistan was just sold Ah-1Zs and other ancillary equipment and yet India is about to sign on a massive deal itself with the US. So clearly there is ZERO proof in recent history to back up your claim.

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## ni8mare

Oscar said:


> There is one thing to be kept in mind however. If tomorrow the Russians do decide to sell the Su-35, they can and will despite all Indian protests; since India really cannot do anything about it.
> 
> The reasons for that are the existing massive contracts that India already has with Russia. While from the persepctive of many Indian members it would seem as if India has Russia in a fix; so does Russia have India in the fix. That billion invested in those weapons is an investment of both time and money. Time is the most important commodity here as those weapons represent a capability that the Indian military forces cannot afford to delay or lose. They cannot leverage stepping out of those contracts because that puts a dent in their capability. A capability that INDIA WANTS FROM RUSSIA.
> 
> Which is why, despite India's protests.. the US still sells to Pakistan. and will also sell to India. Is it possible(unlikely as it may seem w.r.t Su-35) that Russia is taking the same path as the US?


True..........

lets say pak gets SU-35 ...then what should be india' reaction to it millitary?


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## Muhammad Omar

ni8mare said:


> True..........
> 
> lets say pak gets SU-35 ...then what should be india' reaction to it ?



well India did protest to Russians about sale of Mi-35 too and still the deals is signed


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## ni8mare

SipahSalar said:


> What do you find insulting in the comment? Isn't modi's government actively promoting Yoga and it's supposed benefits?
> India yoga: PM Narendra Modi leads thousands in celebration - BBC News
> 
> One of the often advertised benefit is alleviation of pain, so what's wrong in suggesting someone to use it to help ease their suffering?


Is there any reason bring yoga in SU-35 thread ......can you relate both ?


Khanivore said:


> Yoga is a religion now?


Yes....... as far as it is relate to Hinduism



Muhammad Omar said:


> well India did protest to Russians about sale of Mi-35 too and still the deals is signed


that is not I asked ......in terms of military..


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## Viper0011.

ni8mare said:


> like @Viper0011. who uses religion and personal attack.....not just indian member but also pakistnai member too



Hey look, surprise, surprise, getting invited to another flamed topic!!! Am I really surprised? No. Its part of my daily life here with my Indian not so close friends .

By the way, I don't attack anyone FIRST. In fact, if I hated India and Indians SO MUCH, I don't know why I'd write post in India's favor. I write the truth and give credit to where it deserves. Anyway, the key to avoid me getting personal is to avoid getting personnel with me to begin with. Let the readers be the judge.

By the way, Yoga is an excellent mind-body exercise. I am all for it, don't care which religion claims it or culture wants to put their name on it.

Yoga is like Humus , the Arabs say its theirs, the Greek say its theirs and the Israeli's say its theirs. I just love having it, don't care about the drama. Same for Yoga. Good for people who practice it

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## nadeemkhan110

ni8mare said:


> True..........
> 
> lets say pak gets SU-35 ...then what should be india' reaction to it ?


tell me what india can do
india can do this


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## I S I

Great Sachin said:


> We can buy more Rafale


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## Gandhi follower

Oscar said:


> Do you have a statement of the Army's procurement budget or the Air Force's procurement budget which shows the current finances vis-a-vis cash and liquid assets to prove that or in case you dont are willing to admit that you are just a low grade one line poster?



Before making silly accusations, please read it

Pakistan Finalizes Hind Deal With Russia


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## SecularNationalist

We can see a lot of bias and terror in that article 
Poor poor bhartis *"Becharay ghareeb log "*


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## ni8mare

nadeemkhan110 said:


> tell me what india can do
> india can do this


read post #65 again post edited


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## dadeechi

Great Sachin said:


> We can buy more Rafale









*Optimism* : MMRCA RFP Released

*Excitement* : FGFA Design Contract signed

*Thrill* : Typhoon & Rafale short listed

*Euphoria* : Rafale announced as winner

*Anxiety* : FGFA downsized from 200 to 144

*Denial* : Rafale is too costly with no TOT

*Fear* : Prolonged negotiations for Rafale

*Desperation* : Cancel MMRCA RFP. Decide to buy 36 Rafale off the shelf

*Panic* : News of Russian sale of SU-35 to Pakistan

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## nadeemkhan110

Great Sachin said:


> We can buy more Rafale

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## $@rJen

Oscar said:


> No it wont. If the Russians are offering the best offer, India will take it. Or are you saying that Indians are so spiteful that they will willingly take an inferior product just as revenge for what is going to be a minuscle contract, that such a pithy mentality exists?
> 
> I doubt that. Pakistan was just sold Ah-1Zs and other ancillary equipment and yet India is about to sign on a massive deal itself with the US. So clearly there is ZERO proof in recent history to back up your claim.



Yes with new config allowing brahmos to be integrated its a good sub.. But that's not going to win them the contract as i believe there are other subs where brahmos can be integrated (correct me if wong) If russians can blackmail us in this way so can we... If Russians can take revenge on us becasue they lost MMRCA then why do you think it'll stop us from doing the same.. and the thing is it'll not be a revenge but a reminder becasue we've so much more contracts to offer. 

Ah-17 is not a threat to us and US will not see Pakistan any new advanced fighters.

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## ni8mare

Viper0011. said:


> Hey look, surprise, surprise, getting invited to another flamed topic!!! Am I really surprised? No. Its part of my daily life here with my Indian not so close friends .
> 
> By the way, I don't attack anyone FIRST. In fact, if I hated India and Indians SO MUCH, I don't know why I'd write post in India's favor. I write the truth and give credit to where it deserves. Anyway, the key to avoid me getting personal is to avoid getting personnel with me to begin with. Let the readers be the judge.]


Ohhhh such a holier than thou act ...

don't lie you have been continuously a bashing Hinduism ......even if any one attacks you still you no needed to bash Hinduism here ....which you do 



> By the way, Yoga is an excellent mind-body exercise. I am all for it, don't care which religion claims it or culture wants to put their name on it.
> 
> Yoga is like Humus , the Arabs say its theirs, the Greek say its theirs and the Israeli's say its theirs. I just love having it, don't care about the drama. Same for Yoga. Good for people who practice it


but then people need to respect it ......rather than using it for point scoring because it related to Hinduism 
(yoga point is not pointed to ward you )



sarjenprabhu said:


> Yes with new config allowing brahmos to be integrated its a good sub.. But that's not going to win them the contract as i believe there are other subs where brahmos can be integrated (correct me if wong) If russians can blackmail us in this way so can we... If Russians can take revenge on us becasue they lost MMRCA then why do you think it'll stop us from doing the same.. and the thing is it'll not be a revenge but a reminder becasue we've so much more contracts to offer.
> 
> Ah-17 is not a threat to us and US will not see Pakistan any new advanced fighters.


the cost of NG SUB deal is 11 BN$........looks like if Su-35 goes through they are gonna loose it

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## nadeemkhan110

ni8mare said:


> True..........
> 
> lets say pak gets SU-35 ...then what should be india' reaction to it millitary?


India will stay silent, India will not show any reaction
because Its Russia not Maldives


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What diplomatic rift ,
when India was purchasing weapons

a) Transport planes
b) Submarine hunters
c) Anti ship weapons
d) Missiles
e) AWACs
f) Rafale
g) Nuclear deal , nuclear fuel secrets

Did Russia cause a "RIFT" no russians simply observed and remained quiet

So what is the problem with Banya mentality ?

Hum Khain to Halwa , tum khao to Haram !!!

Meanwhile when Russia , bought a Helicopter carriers , it was sanctioned !!! Why did India not return all the weapons it had


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## ni8mare

nadeemkhan110 said:


> India will stay silent whey will not show any reaction
> because Its Russia not Maldives


are.......i am saying what should be India's next step to neutralize those SU-35......now don't come up with terrorist attacking air base theory..


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## karan.1970

I think the whole thing is over hyped. The world is more and more of an open market and barring really cutting edge technology (which neither India nor Pakistan is currently aiming for), most of the other stuff is commoditized. Denial of technology is no longer an option. Its more like who can afford what and who wants what in its strategic arsenal. That's why you have Russia selling to Pakistan, USA selling to India and what not.


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## nangyale

ni8mare said:


> the cost of NG SUB deal is 11 BN$........looks like if Su-35 goes through they are gonna loose it



What makes you say that?
Did anybody in the Indian establishment said anything to that effect?

Also which deals you are cancelling with the US, since they have decided to sell AH-1Z's to Pak?


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## mikkix

Pakistan is way behind endia just because of our idiot military establishment who played hide and seek against politicians from early 90's till 2000. They fucking wasted a decade and now crying like sissies. Now it requires 2 decades to come closer against endia. Reality is bitter.
Pakistan needs allies and some excellent strategic policies to counter endia now.


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## dadeechi

Russia at least has won over France on this forum. No one wants to talk about Rafale any more. SU-35 is the new kid on the block which everyone is interested in now.


----------



## nadeemkhan110

dadeechi said:


> View attachment 258531
> 
> 
> *Optimism* : MMRCA RFP Released
> 
> *Excitement* : FGFA Design Contract signed
> 
> *Thrill* : Typhoon & Rafale short listed
> 
> *Euphoria* : Rafale announced as winner
> 
> *Anxiety* : FGFA downsized from 200 to 144
> 
> *Denial* : Rafale is too costly with no TOT
> 
> *Fear* : Prolonged negotiations for Rafale
> 
> *Desperation* : Cancel MMRCA RFP. Decide to buy 36 Rafale off the shelf
> 
> *Panic* : News of Russian sale of SU-35 to Pakistan


 till now fgfa is just a new design that's it
now look at f-35 most expensive 5th gen jet
Air Force Admits: Our New Stealth Fighter Can’t Fight
Air Force Admits: Our New Stealth Fighter Can’t Fight - The Daily Beast


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## Shariq786

sarjenprabhu said:


> No... We'll give sub deal to someone else... russia looses 8-10 billion which they can't afford to.. then there're plenty to come, if they want they have to change their mindset... we've so much option to buy but they don't have so much options to sell... India can never be replaced by Pakistan in defence purchase.


and you'll give that contract to who US or France or EU as we all know its either Europe or US and both know that if you leave Russia you won't have an 2nd option like you did with RAFALE although you still got screwed by the French... NOW just imagine what will happen if you totally rely on them by leaving Russia because they know you need those capabilities like hell because your trying to match China they will make you guys there puppets which they wanted to do for a long time a puppet in Asia.... tried it with Pakistan but we came out of it somehow but you won't be able to because after Russia its either CHINA, EU or US ... CHINA won't sell you a hand gun so its either US or EU they'll milk each penny out of your pockets you'll have to go by them as you will have no other options and they'll make a mercenary out of you guys by making you against Pak-China-Russia nexus in Asia ... And we all know there is nothing without strings when you rely on Uncle SAM 

Face the facts first and then post about you having upper hand in INDO-Russia relationship i have read alot of comments like that over here and can't bear it any more but still if you guys have counter arguments please put it forward TY 

and i still didn't even mentioned you airforce totally being Russian if they say ok you guys and go F yourself and stop sending spares as well do you think you guys would be able to replace each of your fighter jet (although you won't be able to maintain it as well but still) even in a decade by buying them from UNCLE SAM or EU by totally relying on them ??

And don't worry about Russian economy the day you guys leave Russia Chinese will pull them up in every field and even they'll get access to warm waters through Pak so they won't miss you guys that much as much as you'll miss them my friend its like Russia loosing 70 Billion Dollars and gaining lets just say including PAK and CHINA 20 billion along with INDIA lossing everything it worked for from the start meaning being a superpower of Asia along side with CHINA......

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## $@rJen

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What diplomatic rift ,
> when India was purchasing weapons
> 
> a) Transport planes
> b) Submarine hunters
> c) Anti ship weapons
> d) Missiles
> e) AWACs
> f) Rafale
> g) Nuclear deal , nuclear fuel secrets
> 
> Did Russia cause a "RIFT" no russians simply observed and remained quiet
> 
> So what is the problem with Banya mentality ?
> 
> Hum Khain to Halwal , tum khao to Haram !!!
> 
> *Meanwhile when Russia , bought a Helicopter carriers , it was sanctioned !!! Why did India not return all the weapons it had*



Because no sane person will put everything in One basket...
A) As for transport plane.. we're co-developing one with Russia
B) Russia doesn't have anything new to offer
C) Main anti-ship missile in our inventory are Russians niw all are being replaced with Brahmos which is co-developed with Russians
D) Which missiles?? if you're talking about for the fighters then we've the russian ones on the russian platform.. other missiles are developed by DRDO and for western fighter we've western missiles. they don't allow russian ones
E) Awac's platform is Russian
F) Their fighter plane failed in the evaluation 
G) Russians top in Nuclear deal with us than US.. we alowed US to get the pressure off of for not signing NPT

i didn't get the bold part.. can you explain???



Shariq786 said:


> and you'll give that contract to who US or France or EU as we all know its either Europe or US and both know that if you leave Russia you won't have an 2nd option like you did with RAFALE although you still got screwed by the French...



What are the 2nd option do Russians have if they want to loose the Indian Market??? Tell me how did France screw us??



Shariq786 said:


> NOW just imagine what will happen if you totally rely on them by leaving Russia because they know you need those capabilities like hell because your trying to match China they will make you guys there puppets which they wanted to do for a long time a puppet in Asia...



Nobody is relying on the west.. I told India will give the deal to EU countries to remind we mean business. there are many other deals to be given to russia, they're not fools to let us go completely, if we're off then Russians Economy is comletly Screwed not the other way around



Shariq786 said:


> Face the facts first and then post about you having upper hand in INDO-Russia relationship i have read alot of comments like that over here and can't bear it any more but still if you guys have counter arguments please put it forward TY



No the problem is you're seeing this from one side....

Russians are just reminding that they have another option which is very poor... Again Pakistani market never take the place of Indian one. And we have option and we know how to play on that.... we don't buy weapons from a single vender and fall prey to them... but Russia doesn't have that luxury. we're their top import partner they can never afford to loose us. all thsi su-35 is pressure tactics the same way they did in end of 90's.. we wne to French market then they started to tell about selling Su-27 to Pakistan.. then India had to bu mig-29 later su-30 to keep them calm.

this is the same game is being played.. once Modi goes and sign the agreement for fgfa and upgrading mki deal then promise to give them the sub deal the talks of su-35 will never surface again.



Shariq786 said:


> and i still didn't even mentioned you airforce totally being Russian if they say ok you guys and go F yourself and stop sending spares as well do you think you guys would be able to replace each of your fighter jet (although you won't be able to maintain it as well but still) even in a decade by buying them from UNCLE SAM or EU by totally relying on them ??



Highly unlikely scenario.. take my previous reply for this too



Shariq786 said:


> And don't worry about Russian economy the day you guys leave Russia Chinese will pull them up in every field and even they'll get access to warm waters through Pak so they won't miss you guys that much as much as you'll miss them my friend its like Russia loosing 70 Billion Dollars and gaining lets just say including PAK and CHINA 20 billion along with INDIA lossing everything it worked for from the start meaning being a superpower of Asia along side with CHINA......

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## Shariq786

sarjenprabhu said:


> What are the 2nd option do Russians have if they want to loose the Indian Market??? Tell me how did France screw us??
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is relying on the west.. I told India will give the deal to EU countries to remind we mean business. there are many other deals to be given to russia, they're not fools to let us go completely, if we're off then Russians Economy is comletly Screwed not the other way around



you tell me what is the 2nd Option you have after Russia meaning getting everything without strings ??? And how French screwed you ??? Remember MMRCA deal which included TOT 120 Jets and training with the Price tag of 10 to 15 Billion $ max ?? Now only 36 Jets no TOT and Price TAG half like around 7 to 8 Billion $ ??

You are dodging the ques Dude i m asking you can you afford to loose or remove all the future military plans with Russia can you afford it if Russia do the same with you ??

Ok let me give you a scenario in this INDIA says no to Russia on future military plans Russia does the same and says no more military stuff to you guys you break economic ties as well with Russia .. China see Russia Falling and grab the opportunity to get another brother state like PAK by offering them different economic messures Russia declines but get some support from CHINA and still gets up CHINA gains another partner which is cut out from the world and totally relying on them for the economic reasons like PAK on the other Side your military your navy your airforce which totally rellies on Russia gets a big hit with no more spares or future procuments comming without strings any more you have to replace your front line fighters on emergency basis need 2nd strike capabilties and sub on emergency basis need new tanks on emergency basis because you cannot maintain all that stuff even for a decade without Russian spares do you think you can do all that with your current economy in a Decade and from where will you get those stuff from EU and you think EU will make such decision on its own Without Uncle SAM you'll Die with them my friend


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## dadeechi

Shariq786 said:


> and you'll give that contract to who US or France or EU as we all know its either Europe or US and both know that if you leave Russia you won't have an 2nd option like you did with RAFALE although you still got screwed by the French... NOW just imagine what will happen if you totally rely on them by leaving Russia because they know you need those capabilities like hell because your trying to match China they will make you guys there puppets which they wanted to do for a long time a puppet in Asia.... tried it with Pakistan but we came out of it somehow but you won't be able to because after Russia its either CHINA, EU or US ... CHINA won't sell you a hand gun so its either US or EU they'll milk each penny out of your pockets you'll have to go by them as you will have no other options and they'll make a mercenary out of you guys by making you against Pak-China-Russia nexus in Asia ... And we all know there is nothing without strings when you rely on Uncle SAM
> 
> Face the facts first and then post about you having upper hand in INDO-Russia relationship i have read alot of comments like that over here and can't bear it any more but still if you guys have counter arguments please put it forward TY
> 
> and i still didn't even mentioned you airforce totally being Russian if they say ok you guys and go F yourself and stop sending spares as well do you think you guys would be able to replace each of your fighter jet (although you won't be able to maintain it as well but still) even in a decade by buying them from UNCLE SAM or EU by totally relying on them ??
> 
> And don't worry about Russian economy the day you guys leave Russia Chinese will pull them up in every field and even they'll get access to warm waters through Pak so they won't miss you guys that much as much as you'll miss them my friend its like Russia loosing 70 Billion Dollars and gaining lets just say including PAK and CHINA 20 billion along with INDIA lossing everything it worked for from the start meaning being a superpower of Asia along side with CHINA......



It's very important to understand the difference in thinking between West vs Russia-China

Coming from Capitalistic mindset, West dispassionately implement their policies based on Economics (and Religion to some extent. Like not allowing Turkey into EU). They could drop their so called allies at a drop of a hat or make one from their so called enemies. The phrase "There are permanent friends or enemies" perfectly fits the West.

While on the other hand Russia-China, coming from communistic mindset, implement their policies based on sharing and to carry everyone along. USSR did Business with India in Rupees while China passionately supported Pakistan even when they themselves were not very strong economically.

When it comes to sharing critical technologies no country in West comes close to Russia-China.

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## Shariq786

dadeechi said:


> It's very important to understand the difference in thinking between West vs Russia-China
> 
> Coming from Capitalistic mindset, West dispassionately implement their policies based on Economics (and Religion to some extent. Like not allowing Turkey into EU). They could drop their so called allies at a drop of a hat or make one from their so called enemies. The phrase "There are permanent friends or enemies" perfectly fits the West.
> 
> While on the other hand Russia-China, coming from communistic mindset, implement their policies based on sharing and to carry everyone along. USSR did Business with India in Rupees while China passionately supported Pakistan even when they themselves were not very strong economically.
> 
> When it comes to sharing critical technologies no country in West comes close to Russia-China.


Never said no to that but i was just putting forward a case that what if INDIA says no to Russia what Russia can do and who has the upper hand in INDO-RUSSIAN scenario because most of the guys here think that Russia totally depends on INDIA and they can dictate them what to do and what not to do If Russia can go against the Half on the World in Ukraine matter or in any other matter than i think INDIA might not be a problem... 

Either way i was just here to debate about this even though i myself don't believe Su 35 comming to PAK any time soon.......

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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> For you the statement given by Russian DFM & then Jane s defence journal is also nothing ?
> So idiot ? You are ?
> Cause no one will ever going to you , & ask hey idiot may we sell or buy these birds pls give us your permission ?lolzz


Janes has been wrong on multiple occasions. Besides, it mentions TALKS not signing of deals, clear difference that even you should be able to tell.

I know its hard for you, but try thinking.


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## Yousafzai_M

Dozens of threads already on the SU-35 thing for PAF. Why don't we just hold off the discussions till we see SU-35 with Pakistani flag on them? just a thought.

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## Muhammad Omar

dadeechi said:


> Russia at least has won over France on this forum. No one wants to talk about Rafale any more. SU-35 is the new kid on the block which everyone is interested in now.



What do you want to talk about about Rafael India is getting 36 of em....  you can visit Indian Defence section to talk about Rafael ..... there are still plenty of threads there


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## dadeechi

Shariq786 said:


> Never said no to that but i was just putting forward a case that what if INDIA says no to Russia what Russia can do and who has the upper hand in INDO-RUSSIAN scenario because most of the guys here think that Russia totally depends on INDIA and they can dictate them what to do and what not to do If Russia can go against the Half on the World in Ukraine matter or in any other matter than i think INDIA might not be a problem...
> 
> Either way i was just here to debate about this even though i myself don't believe Su 35 comming to PAK any time soon.......



I was not contradicting your post but rather adding to yours.


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## 500

nadeemkhan110 said:


> till now fgfa is just a new design that's it
> now look at f-35 most expensive 5th gen jet
> Air Force Admits: Our New Stealth Fighter Can’t Fight
> Air Force Admits: Our New Stealth Fighter Can’t Fight - The Daily Beast


Journalism at its best.

*Air force: *The F-35 wasn’t optimized for dogfighting maneuvers.
*Journalists:* Air Force Admits: Our New Stealth Fighter Can’t Fight

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## jaiind

batmannow said:


> Spares our Chinese friends have a lot ,cause they have these flankers almost a decade ago ?
> So don't worry , put your dam.hands together r for su-35s in Pakistani flag camouflage ?lolzz
> 
> 
> No we are not so desperate ,its you Indians getting out of your minds ?lolzz


man, so many threads are running on su 35 for pak. you will know who is desperate for what..


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## Peaceful Civilian

I am sure, uncle Sam have close look on this deal. We should not accept less than f16 block60 with AIM120D or f18s next time. No less than AIM120D. 
Best of luck!!
Play smart !!


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## PWFI

JD_In said:


> lol..Pakistan seems to be in hurry to get trapped ...I got to know from sources its kind of strategic honey-trap in the form of Weapons of atmost national importance to Pakistan for which India has agreed to pay huge sum to Russia...enjoy the bird and dont cry when it will shit on your face ....rofl....


  Résultats Google Recherche d'images correspondant à http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tCZomUqXL.jpg

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## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> I appreciate the second part of your post.
> However just for heck of it - You don't calm things when you threaten the other side with nukes - that is escalation.



You have to see why the threat was issued to begin with.....a president sitting and watching soccer or American football or playing cricket, doesn't just call his foe and issues a threat. There has to be some pre-existing condition for such..... that pre-existing condition needs to be removed through talks so everyone stays calm and peaceful.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> How do they lose it?
> Please explain.


It's not about loosing out on the current book orders but the slew of potential book orders, such as the FGFA follow ons and upgrades, P75i- for which they are pitching amur, Armata platform which will be pitched as a contender for the FICV platform, article 30 engine variant which will be pitched for eventually for AMCA, K77 Aesa, follow on A50, along with MRTA, the potential order is in the range of 75 Billion dollars over the next 12 years, why would Russia risk change in attitude or re-aligning it's market to tap some thing which would be in the range of 25 billion dollars in the next 12-15 years in pakistan. 

From the leverage side of it, yes India does have a certain amount of leverage not as exagerrated as blanket statements as put here, but not directly on the government but on the bureaus like Raduga OKB, Mashinostroeyenia OKB, NPO Saturn, Irkut Corp, Ilyushin, RAC etc. With single-handedly keeping Projects like the Mig29M, R27 Avtomatika 9B-1032 PRGS27, K172, KH353M24 ship launched version, RGS 31 A2G 4th gen seeker alive. In other words, India more than a buyer has been a valuable partner for these organisations. So moving away from that just becuase India has sourced some euro aircrafts, which India has traditionally done (Mirage, Jaguar, Ouragon, Hawker Hunter, Gnat, vampire, AMX 30, Chieftien, vickers mk1, )even with Russian equipment forming the backbone is a misnomer....

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## Viper0011.

ni8mare said:


> *Exactly ...........buying from America france or russia is to veto any sell to pakistan.....*
> 
> *What we are getting from russia:*
> 
> PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
> TANKS = 5 BN
> Brahmos JV program
> Mig29K
> HELICOPTER=4BN
> FRIGATE = 3BN
> NUKE SUB=1BN
> SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
> MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
> 
> this above are confirmed ...........and thats atleast 50 bn we are talking about
> 
> *As i said there is aleast 60-70 bn is involved ,,,,,,,,,which can easily veto any sell to pakistan lets wait for Nov vist of modi to russia things will get clear*



And.....after spending this whatever $ 50-60 billion (allegedly), the Russians, the French, the UK and the US are STILL selling to Pakistan!!! So you are going to veto this like you vetoed the F-16 block 52's sale? The Jordanian -16's, the Vipers AH-1Z, more -16's, Sniper pods, the MI heli's, etc, etc?? 

Psychology says, there are five stages of grief and trauma: 

1: Nothing happened at all. Life is the same like yesterday.
2: Wait, may be something did. But not really, how could it be? (Denial)
3: Holly Shiiit!!! It did happen!!!! 
4: I am SO HURT!!! Cry, cry.. 
5: I admit it happened. I am a normal person, I need to move on with life knowing and accepting the reality!

Folks from India are between stage 1 and 3 right now. 4th is about to hit when the contract is announced (if they haven't learned from the MI-35 contract)!! Good luck


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## SQ8

MilSpec said:


> It's not about loosing out on the current book orders but the slew of potential book orders, such as the FGFA follow ons and upgrades, P75i- for which they are pitching amur, Armata platform which will be pitched as a contender for the FICV platform, article 30 engine variant which will be pitched for eventually for AMCA, K77 Aesa, follow on A50, along with MRTA, the potential order is in the range of 75 Billion dollars over the next 12 years, why would Russia risk change in attitude or re-aligning it's market to tap some thing which would be in the range of 25 billion dollars in the next 12-15 years in pakistan.
> 
> From the leverage side of it, yes India does have a certain amount of leverage not as exagerrated as blanket statements as put here, but not directly on the government but on the bureaus like Raduga OKB, Mashinostroeyenia OKB, NPO Saturn, Irkut Corp, Ilyushin, RAC etc. With single-handedly keeping Projects like the Mig29M, R27 Avtomatika 9B-1032 PRGS27, K172, KH353M24 ship launched version, RGS 31 A2G 4th gen seeker alive. In other words, India more than a buyer has been a valuable partner for these organisations. So moving away from that just becuase India has sourced some euro aircrafts, which India has traditionally done (Mirage, Jaguar, Ouragon, Hawker Hunter, Gnat, vampire, AMX 30, Chieftien, vickers mk1, )even with Russian equipment forming the backbone is a misnomer....



For the FGFA India is still stuck with Russia, it will need it. Unless you jump to another platform and take in the associated(and needless extra costs) so that is not needed. All those other projects as well arent just a Russian need; they are an Indian one as well. Even those leveraged ones on the development projects are linked to a requirement and not because its charity. So when there is some shift away from traditional sources, it is both unfair and unrealistic to expect that those sources will not move away as well.

At the end, China has bought a lot from Russia and reverse engineered it. Something that should put off the Russians much more than just diplomatc pressure. Yet, they are willing to sell.. wanting to sell. 
So the leverage being there isnt just one way, its both ways. If Russia is offering something that India wants and needs, it will still complain, raise an issue.. but buy it regardless of whether Russia sells to Pakistan or not

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## Viper0011.

ni8mare said:


> @Irfan Baloch @WebMaster @blain2 @Oscar sir ....why all time religion is bought with out any issue ?
> 
> Would you stand similar insults on koran, the prophet, or myths associated that this member or other member does on hinduism and vedas?



Wait, where did the poster say anything about Hinduism? I wrote a post on Yoga too like 2 hours ago. I think its great. I think its like Humus, its great for humans to have and I don't care who really "owns" it, whether religiously or culturally. So I think the poster above is referring to the calming effects of Yoga in terms of relieving the stress this SU-35 thing is causing the Indian community. 

When you guys flame logical, factual threads, what do you think I do? I close my eyes, run some music with water fall or ocean music, deep breathe and stretch (aka, the Yoga). Its a great thing for stress relieving and to calm down. I recommend it to everyone . There is no religious aspect from my standpoint, its just beneficial to humans and to the human body. If it belongs to Hinduism, or Buddhism, then good for people who believe in it. 

And I agree, there shouldn't be any insult to anyone's religion or stuff. BUT....you guys need to follow it too. Debate, not personal attack. Because if you insult someone personally, then they'll say whatever the heck they want to say, and you don't have a case anymore either.

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## Blue Marlin

well, this is a very heated thread. i shall say my part and leave it at that. Russia is pushing India to purchase the su-35, by creating the the atmosphere of Pakistan procuring the su-35, which in fact they genuinely want.

quiet a while ago, just after the 126 jet deal was cancelled, sukhoi proposed an more advanced mki variant based on the su-35, this deal was dropped in favour in searching for other western suppliers. quote me if im wrong here, but there were plans to have internal weapons bays. similar to that of the f15-se(as shown in the link).

would i see the su-35 in paf colours? No
does paf need the su-35? yes

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## SirHatesALot

One of the more reasons to have a robust domestic defense industry.
This should be used as an opportunity to scrap FGFA, i really don't like that aircraft

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## ni8mare

Viper0011. said:


> And.....after spending this whatever $ 50-60 billion *(allegedly)*, the Russians, the French, the UK and the US are STILL selling to Pakistan!!! So you are going to veto this like you vetoed the F-16 block 52's sale? The Jordanian -16's, the Vipers AH-1Z, more -16's, Sniper pods, the MI heli's, etc, etc??


Allegedly ................i have said before also learn a little about indian defence

*All the items listed below are actually happening:*
TANKS = 5 BN
Brahmos JV program
Mig29K
HELICOPTER=4BN
SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)

*All the items listed below are actually in process:*
PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
NUKE SUB=1BN
Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn

*All the items might happen in future:*
SUBs deal = 10 bn
FRIGATE = 3BN

*And Yeah..Vipers AH-1Z *





*are really scary then Mi-35 or LCH or Apache* 
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












*And if F-16 was that much scary then what is the purpose of SU-35 on first place .. why why why...*
*Suddenly russian junk has become superior overnight *

*@MilSpec what about some High attitude very long range SAM .......SM-6 or S-400*


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## Khanivore

ni8mare said:


> Yes....... as far as it is relate to Hinduism


You never answered my question. I'll answer it for you.

*Question*: Is Yoga a religion? 
*Answer*: No. 
_Yoga is contained within religions. Religion is not contained within Yoga. (url)_


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## ni8mare

Khanivore said:


> You never answered my question. I'll answer it for you.
> 
> *Question*: Is Yoga a religion?
> *Answer*: No.
> _Yoga is contained within religions. Religion is not contained within Yoga. (url)_


Exactly........... it is contained within *Santana dharma.......* any attempt to insult yoga is a insulting part of culture and its teaching which is *Santana dharma 

what ever leave it ..........nothing to do with thread here *


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## Khanivore

And you Indians want to blackmail the Russians over Russia-Pak defence deals which are nothing in comparison.  Looks like India needs the Russians more than the Russians need India. 



ni8mare said:


> *All the items listed below are actually happening:*
> TANKS = 5 BN
> Brahmos JV program
> Mig29K
> HELICOPTER=4BN
> SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
> MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
> Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
> Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)
> 
> *All the items listed below are actually in process:*
> PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
> NUKE SUB=1BN
> Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn
> 
> *All the items might happen in future:*
> SUBs deal = 10 bn
> FRIGATE = 3BN



He wasn't insulting your belief but yes, never mind about it now.


ni8mare said:


> *what ever leave it ..........nothing to do with thread here *





Viper0011. said:


> Wait, where did the poster say anything about Hinduism? I wrote a post on Yoga too like 2 hours ago. I think its great. I think its like Humus, its great for humans to have and I don't care who really "owns" it, whether religiously or culturally. So I think the poster above is referring to the calming effects of Yoga in terms of relieving the stress this SU-35 thing is causing the Indian community.
> 
> When you guys flame logical, factual threads, what do you think I do? I close my eyes, run some music with water fall or ocean music, deep breathe and stretch (aka, the Yoga). Its a great thing for stress relieving and to calm down. I recommend it to everyone . There is no religious aspect from my standpoint, its just beneficial to humans and to the human body. If it belongs to Hinduism, or Buddhism, then good for people who believe in it.
> 
> And I agree, there shouldn't be any insult to anyone's religion or stuff. BUT....you guys need to follow it too. Debate, not personal attack. Because if you insult someone personally, then they'll say whatever the heck they want to say, and you don't have a case anymore either.


Well said. Couldn't agree more.


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## dadeechi

pak avatar said:


> i dont get it:
> India expects Russia to remain faithful and quiet when it buys western hardware over Russian.
> Then when Russians decide to sell to Pakistan, Indians are like no no u cant do that, we have a deep friendship(even though we will buy US toys).
> *Make no mistake if this deal is true, India has itself to blame*



Thanked for the bold part



LoveIcon said:


> USA will finance procurement from Russia, just like she is financing Mi-35. In short It's Putin who have to worry about recovering money from Pakistan not Indians.



Exactly



pak avatar said:


> i dont get it:
> India expects Russia to remain faithful and quiet when it buys western hardware over Russian.
> Then when Russians decide to sell to Pakistan, Indians are like no no u cant do that, we have a deep friendship(even though we will buy US toys).
> Make no mistake if this deal is true, India has itself to blame





21 Dec 2012 said:


> Misleading title
> 
> Doesn't Russia already sell to China?



Yes Russia has been selling to China but India never had an option to stop those deals due to the size of China's economy and china has more to offer to Russia than India.

In case of Pakistan, India always took comfort in the fact that they would be able to raise the stakes and prevent such deals by offering better opportunities to the potential seller. But with the entry of China to support Pakistan financially, Pakistan has turned tables on India and is now in a position to checkmate India.

If this deal goes through, It would be a win for US, China and Pakistan while a loss for both Russia and India (with India being the biggest loser of all)


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## Khanivore

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Doesn't Russia already sell to China?


India cannot say the same about China. It's as simple as that. Plus the Indian economy is slowly moving into the grips of China.


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## Viper0011.

blue marlin said:


> would i see the su-35 in paf colours? No



Just a friendly advise, don't put your money on betting on this. You might lose all your savings

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Blue Marlin

Viper0011. said:


> Just a friendly advise, don't put your money on betting on this. You might lose all your savings


hi,
im confidant in what i what i say, i would assume your the same, we shall wait and see what happens and leave it at that.


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## Viper0011.

ni8mare said:


> *And Yeah..Vipers AH-1Z *
> 
> *are really scary then Mi-35 or LCH or Apache*
> http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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




So now from Russia selling the SU-35 we go to how scary the helicopters and jets look.....and your point is that what India got looks scarier than Pakistan    ....MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!


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## Indus Falcon

blue marlin said:


> *more info on the su-35 realised from Janes*
> 
> View attachment 258391
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> *The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.*
> 
> In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told _IHS Jane's_ that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told _IHS Jane's_ in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360


@MastanKhan* You have been vindicated!!!!*


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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> @MastanKhan* You have been vindicated!!!!*


well that report is true, and i wondered how long it took paf to realise it needed a twin engined long range fighter?


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## Blue Marlin

Viper0011. said:


> So now from Russia selling the SU-35 we go to how scary the helicopters and jets look.....and your point is that what India got looks scarier than Pakistan    ....MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!


i have never seen you comment like this before, i would expect some sarcasm from you, but now it's sort of just over kill. are you alright?


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## Indus Falcon

blue marlin said:


> well that report is true, and i wondered how long it took paf to realise it needed a twin engined long range fighter?


You must understand something. PAF is not an independent Air fighting unit. It is just like the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force. i.e. an Air wing of the Army. When the Army says jump, they don't ask "why", they say "how high?" 

To those (not you) who question me, go back in history, and see how Dar was asked to pay for the Jordanian Vipers. Dar was smart enough NOT to ask "why?", but "how much?".

Reactions: Like Like:
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## TigerJay

That Guy said:


> You made your point very clear, but unfortunately, I believe it to be wrong.
> 
> First of all, the so called deal of 24 Su-35s for China have been going on for years, and the Chinese have already said they're no longer interested. There is no reason to suggest that they're looking to buy it, even for reverse engineering purposes (in particular, the engines).
> 
> Second, the Indian deal (even if it goes through) will take at least 2 years to fulfill one squadron worth of orders. India has to go through training, building of infrastructure, and so on, which will take them a long time. There have been calls within India to abandon the Rafale deal, and concentrate on the Su-30MKIs. By the time they get a squadron ready, PAF may have better options available.
> 
> Next, the Su-35 isn't the only available 4++ gen to Pakistan, hell, I don't think the Su-35 is actually even available. Like @Oscar said, India would sooner spend a billion, then let Pakistan spend a million buying the damn thing.
> 
> Pakistan is still not interested in the Su-35, and the former air chief has already said that PAF is more interested in 5th gen. Former air force pilots and current analyst, Kaiser Tufail has said that PAF may want to skip the 4++ and go straight to the 5th gen.
> 
> PAF will reject the deal, if a deal even exists (which I doubt). Whether for the reason I've given, or Oscar. It's as simple as that.



That is purely your own perspective. Your analysis isn't wrong, I won't say that, it's just the opposite possibility contrary my analysis to the current situation.



Super Falcon said:


> And in bvr fights its radar tracks 6 targets at once at range of 120 km i think



The Su-35 employs an Irbis-Epassive electronically scanned array radar that constitutes an essential component of the aircraft's fire-control system. The radar is capable of detecting a 3-square-meter (32 sq ft) aerial target at a distance of 400 km (250 mi), and can track 30 airborne targets and engage 8 of them at the same time.



secretservice said:


> i dont think its a right time to discuss the specifications of su 35 and f 16 .. we are over reacting, i think. it is indeed a positive development but we have to wait.



That's true, also the comparison of Su-35 with any other aircraft hardly concludes the outcome of this arrangement. The real gain for Pakistan is on the diplomatic front. Indian leadership is in fact having fits over this matter for that same reason. It will be a huge dent in the Indian diplomacy, rater a black day for them, if at all this deal is signed. And to be honest this exactly is the reason why our Indian friends on the blog are so furious at the moment.



araz said:


> The gawadar project is a life line both for China and Russia. Once the project builds up yòu will have a lot of traffic from these countries into Gawadar. Security of this region is paramount to the security of their assetts in future. But the SU35S deal probbably goes further than that. Their is indication of chinese support behind it. The engine on the SU35 is what yhe Chinese maybe afterand one way around it is to buy a small quantity themselves a couple of squadrons for PAFand have rights to build engines under licence. For PAF it maybe a good deal 0rovided the plane has an AESA,has depot level maintenance facilities inhouse and agreements to use armaments from other sources. The Russians maybe looking at both the financial and political implications of the deal and it makes sense.
> The indian factor has been hyped about but is nothing more than astorm in a teacup. India ismmore dependant on the Russians than the other way around. The SCO membership also opens doors for Pakistan which the Indians may not be able to deny.
> Still a long way to go so lets see how this pans out.
> Araz



Thanks, you have concluded it so very beautifully. I would like everyone on the blog to see with a broader perspective. Keep up the good work.

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## New Resolve

All Indians on this Thread, please get your BP checked, we dont want to loose all our retarded indian posters in one day, good to keep some of you guys around for this type of jealous amusement, lol Su35 or no Su35.

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## war&peace

[Bregs] said:


> This deal will create strategic shift in Indian policy India to what level this remains to be seen. The official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.


India has already made the shift long ago with a civilian nuclear deal with USA. It was Russia which needed to make a shift and in this changing world India is too overrated. West is using India to pitch it against China and you have accepted that puppet role and degraded yourself. India is not that important in the long term and if Russia can be the part of CPEC and access the warm waters (which USSR failed with all its military power) will be the greatest achievement for them and alone provide Russia with enough trade that hundreds of indias cannot offset. By the way, India has been playing this game for too long and now the world has run out of patience but Russian move is based on the geopolitics and much loftier than indians can understand.

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## Humble Analyst

[Bregs] said:


> This deal will create strategic shift in Indian policy India to what level this remains to be seen. The official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.


This deal will be very good for Pakistan, India and the region. Now you will say why good for India?
As long as there is imbalance of conventional weapons between Pakistan and India, India will be tempted to have a limited war. Limited War concept failed almost always if you read military History. So once conventional balance is restored the chances of nuclear war decrease and region can be secure. Now Russia does not need India as much as India needs Russia to continue to supply parts and armament of Russian origin. Russia will follow the US style of supplying arms to both nations and will have leverage on both. Russia was loyal to India and will be, but once you went ahead and bought Rafale from France, Apache, Sikorsky,Posieden and transports from US/Europe and various other armament from US. Who do you think broke the loyalty? This is not a movie that everything works your way.

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## ni8mare

Viper0011. said:


> And I agree, there shouldn't be any insult to anyone's religion or stuff. BUT....you guys need to follow it too. Debate, not personal attack. *Because if you insult someone personally*, then they'll say whatever the heck they want to say, and you don't have a case anymore either.


does not mean to attack religion ..........when same can be done to yours one too


Viper0011. said:


> So now from Russia selling the SU-35 we go to how scary the helicopters and jets look.....and your point is that what India got looks scarier than Pakistan    ....MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!


......that's not what I meant
*




And if F-16 was that much capable then what is the purpose of SU-35 on first place .. why why why...
Suddenly russian junk has become superior overnight 

Click to expand...

*you btw skipped this**


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## That Guy

TigerJay said:


> That is purely your own perspective. Your analysis isn't wrong, I won't say that, it's just the opposite possibility contrary my analysis to the current situation.


The thing is, it's not just my perspective, this is pretty much a common consensus between most analysts. There is little reason to believe the Su-35 is actually on the table.


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## Thorough Pro

one should never try to write when his *** is on fire



sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday, September 19, 2015
> 
> By : Russia India Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?
> 
> The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.
> 
> Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.
> 
> Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.
> 
> Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.
> 
> Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.
> 
> 
> What can the Su-35 do?
> 
> With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.
> 
> According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.
> 
> He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”
> 
> To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> Diplomatic powwow ::
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.
> 
> However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.
> 
> In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.
> 
> So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.
> 
> India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.
> 
> In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.
> 
> 
> Stopping the Kozyrevs ::
> 
> It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.
> 
> Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”
> 
> “However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”
> 
> Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.
> 
> According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.


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## somebozo

This news is not very surprising as PAF pilots have been training on Chinese and Malaysian Su-27

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## TigerJay

zebra7 said:


> Sir I fully believe that Su35 is coming to Pakistan only few questions regarding Su35.
> 
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.
> 
> 2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin
> 
> 3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.
> 
> 4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.
> 
> 5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.
> 
> 
> Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
> 
> 1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
> 2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
> 3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
> 4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
> 5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
> via wiretransfer.
> 6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
> 7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.
> 8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.



You're just super troll and nothing beyond that, but for someone who has more brains than a peanut I would like to respond to your questions, but literally not for you.

1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.

Actually many, just google it. Specially that, before the MKI can see Su35s, they will be tracked and hunted. So it provides a very distinctive advantage.

2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin

Nothing is sanction proof in this world. Not even Indian deals with French or the the US.

3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.

Many, and which is why Pakistan needs to be aggressive about this deal and then workout a deal to induct 5 gen.

4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.

Nobody needs to confirm nothing here. It's your effing problem you do it.,

5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.

You're really a troll. Su35 will never be put against J31. In fact Su35s now and J31s on the later stage will provide PAF and extra advantage.

Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
Indians have a bad habit of beating the wrong drums. History proves it.

1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.

Yes it has

2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.

No, but that's exactly what is being done right now.

3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.

Not the only but it has many advantage over Chabahar. For example Chabahar needs acces through Pakistan waters, but Gwadar is not dependent on any other country for it's access. And Chabahar is a Gulf only port while Gwadar is an International port.

4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.

Yes it's the only.

5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
via wiretransfer.

Lame. Because it is India which is crying over CPEC and not Pakistan. CPEC is the reality of future but you can't comprehend the outcome of it or you just just don't want to.

6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.

They probably are. but then are even stupid, first to discuss possibilities for Rafael, then back out from it and then go back in again.

7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.

What's your point here? Are you saying it's not a good plane? What exactly are you doing here on this blog then? Go have some rest. And really save everyone from your trolls.

8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.

Whenever you look at things regarding Pakistan, you do not have to keep forgetting it's never only about Pakistan and it's about, Russia-China-Pakistan Axis. So yes, it is much bigger and lucrative market for your tiny brain to comprehend.



That Guy said:


> The thing is, it's not just my perspective, this is pretty much a common consensus between most analysts. There is little reason to believe the Su-35 is actually on the table.


OK.

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## Thorough Pro

You can\t play the same "afford to lose" card with the limited number of suppliers when you own industry sucks at producing anything on it's own. Russia also sells to China so what did you do?



Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck

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## airmarshal

Russia is not losing India. India is so much dependent on Russia as a significant portion of its military hardware is of Russian origin. It needs Russia as much as Russia needs India. Knowing this, Russia can play this game. It knows fully well how much India is dependent on it. 

Be realistic instead of being bombastic. Russia is a great power and India cant match its outreach and its role in world politics. Keep your money and change in your pocket. 

The news of potential sale is true. It has been confirmed by PAF official as well. Its a great diplomatic success for Pakistan to talk to your strategic partner and buy the best military hardware it can offer to the world market. 

And you Indians keep telling us we are isolated!! Now who is isolated?


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## thrilainmanila

the deal doesn't make sense. india is involved in the PAK-FA, once PAF get the damn thing the indians will have the PAK-FA which is something which the russians claim to rival the F-22. whats the point?


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## Blue Marlin

Indus Falcon said:


> You must understand something. PAF is not an independent Air fighting unit. It is just like the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force. i.e. an Air wing of the Army. When the Army says jump, they don't ask "why", they say "how high?"
> 
> To those (not you) who question me, go back in history, and see how Dar was asked to pay for the Jordanian Vipers. Dar was smart enough NOT to ask "why?", but "how much?".



the Pakistan army does have an aviation arm. the airforce does assist the army granted, i ask of you to read this post which is extremely in depth. JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF . but the army does have its own aviation division Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


also i love how you say "not you"


----------



## Pakistan4life

I think its a power shift between Russia China and Pakistan and India going to be alone in the region. Russians also thinking to take benefit from Gawadar as China going through. Sooner or later u guys see the news.


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## illusion8

Oscar said:


> There is one thing to be kept in mind however. If tomorrow the Russians do decide to sell the Su-35, they can and will despite all Indian protests; since India really cannot do anything about it.
> 
> The reasons for that are the existing massive contracts that India already has with Russia. While from the persepctive of many Indian members it would seem as if India has Russia in a fix; so does Russia have India in the fix. That billion invested in those weapons is an investment of both time and money. Time is the most important commodity here as those weapons represent a capability that the Indian military forces cannot afford to delay or lose. They cannot leverage stepping out of those contracts because that puts a dent in their capability. A capability that INDIA WANTS FROM RUSSIA.
> 
> Which is why, despite India's protests.. the US still sells to Pakistan. and will also sell to India. Is it possible(unlikely as it may seem w.r.t Su-35) that Russia is taking the same path as the US?



An earlier poster was commenting on Russia offering top of the line products to Pakistan - I believe and I could be entirely wrong here that the real top of the line products, as in..nuke subs, stealth ships, stealth fighters, nuke carriers, top of the line armaments remain confined to a small circle of buyers for whom everything is on offer and can buy what they want...some would argue that the niche would be because of economics., But I think it's a closed buyers group.

I assume here that most top sellers have invisible red lines which they do not cross.


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## SQ8

illusion8 said:


> An earlier poster was commenting on Russia offering top of the line products to Pakistan - I believe and I could be entirely wrong here that the real top of the line products, as in..nuke subs, stealth ships, stealth fighters, nuke carriers, top of the line armaments remain confined to a small circle of buyers for whom everything is on offer and can buy what they want...some would argue that the niche would be because of economics., But I think it's a closed buyers group.
> 
> I assume here that most top sellers have invisible red lines which they do not cross.



If that means Russia selling us the products you refer to I seriously doubt that. Considering how little we know about what aircraft has been offered(if it has been really) we dont know if its the same fit that is going to the VVS or a downgraded model much like the Mig-31E.


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## Indus Falcon

blue marlin said:


> the Pakistan army does have an aviation arm. the airforce does assist the army granted, i ask of you to read this post which is extremely in depth. JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF . but the army does have its own aviation division Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> also i love how you say "not you"


Well you are free to believe what ever you want. But the Jordanian Viper case, was an eye opener for the non-believers.

Secondly, I wasn't targeting you or being sarcastic, I was genuinely addressing people who have trouble digesting what this old fool says.

Thirdly, thank you for letting me know PA has an Aviation Corp, After all can't expect a Lance Naik to know that, can we!


----------



## 313baberali

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I feel that by these talks,
> Pakistan is putting pressure on the US to release more F-16s...
> and Russia is putting pressure on India to cancel the Rafael deal and buy more SU-30s.


Very nice comment  bus uncle sam ko koi genuine topi karani paray gi ,jab hi f22 milaien gy


----------



## Khanivore

Vyom said:


> at 65 Million a piece let see how many can Paksitan afford..


Well look at it this way, at least you're one of the few people who can sleep well at night in Hindusitan.


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## jaibi

Refrain from foul language


That Guy said:


> I deny everything you wrote, because it's ----- stupid.
> 
> You have NO idea what you're talking about.

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## illusion8

Oscar said:


> If that means Russia selling us the products you refer to I seriously doubt that. Considering how little we know about what aircraft has been offered(if it has been really) we dont know if its the same fit that is going to the VVS or a downgraded model much like the Mig-31E.



Yes..that's what I meant when I saw someone mention top of the line products will be available to Pakistan from Russia. The real top of the line doesn't move beyond a closed group of buyers is what I think, even Russia adheres to that, It's a closed club and breaking into it depends on all the global factors.

Russians have been pushing for SU 35 sales to China...if anything..this could be a cross marketing offer where China buys it and sells to Pakistan..similar to the RD 93 deal where china ended up buying a 1000 of them.

So, if the offer is real..it would most likely be the same configuration that they are offering to China.



blue marlin said:


> well, this is a very heated thread. i shall say my part and leave it at that. Russia is pushing India to purchase the su-35, by creating the the atmosphere of Pakistan procuring the su-35, which in fact they genuinely want.
> 
> quiet a while ago, just after the 126 jet deal was cancelled, sukhoi proposed an more advanced mki variant based on the su-35, this deal was dropped in favour in searching for other western suppliers. quote me if im wrong here, but there were plans to have internal weapons bays. similar to that of the f15-se(as shown in the link).
> 
> would i see the su-35 in paf colours? No
> does paf need the su-35? yes



If you mean...super sukhoi's..then that was offered as a counter to the chinese variants and that offer was running along with the mmrca. 

I doubt Russia is pushing India to buy su 35, they have been pushing China to buy them.

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## Asli Lahori1

So many rumors are floating around. Following is an excerpt from Wiki which was updated in last 72 hours.

Pakistan Air Force is also a potential customer and Vladimir Kozhin, an aide to the Russian President Valdimir Putin, reportedly told reporters that Russia might sell Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E to Pakistan. On September 9 2015, it was reported that Islamabad and Moscow are in talks over the delivery of latest Su-35 fighter jets along with additional multi-role MI 35M Attack Helicopter. Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergeil Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. According to reports, *Pakistan may buy up to 48 Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E *(2 squadrons) for Maritime patrol and long range strike roles.

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## SQ8

On the far off chance that it does happen.

Su-35BM-P 8th Squadron "Haiders" 













illusion8 said:


> Russians have been pushing for SU 35 sales to China...if anything..this could be a cross marketing offer where China buys it and sells to Pakistan..similar to the RD 93 deal where china ended up buying a 1000 of them..



China is getting the same configuration as Russia is. Essentially, its the same as the US selling the Block-52 to us. It is the same(if not better configuration in some parameters) to what they operated. 

China bought a 100 RD-93s, now the deal may be direct between Pakistan and Russia.

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## illusion8

Oscar said:


> China bought a 100 RD-93s, now the deal may be direct between Pakistan and Russia.



I remember reading it as 1000 a long while back, probably negotiating a sale of 1000 no's or something.


Russia in talks with China to sell additional RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighter | Brahmand News


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> Janes has been wrong on multiple occasions. Besides, it mentions TALKS not signing of deals, clear difference that even you should be able to tell.
> 
> I know its hard for you, but try thinking.


Sure Jane's will be wrong , Russian FDM will be wrong , & the whole world will be wrong ?
Only you are the one who is always right ?
If there are talks that means bussines in process ?
No ?
No one has said that any deal has been signed yet but , on the basses of the on going talks its be highly predicted that , it will happen ?
So ,just accept the fact because that's the fact is ,instead of being foolishly stubborn & telling whole world is wrong & you the dynamite genius the waiting Jesus is right ?



That Guy said:


> The thing is, it's not just my perspective, this is pretty much a common consensus between most analysts. There is little reason to believe the Su-35 is actually on the table.


Kindly name few of these so called analysts ,I can bet you most of them are Indians ?

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## TigerJay

@batmannow Without naming names and revealing any identities, I know someone personally who facilitated the on-going talks for Su-35 from the Pakistan side. I came to know about it much earlier before it got into the news. But obviously the deal is not done unless it's done. But let me tell you one more thing that the hopes are very high. Until unless something drastic happens and it's over, let us all keep our fingers crossed and pray for Indian defeat.


----------



## batmannow

sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday, September 19, 2015
> 
> By : Russia India Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?
> 
> The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.
> 
> Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.
> 
> Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.
> 
> Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.
> 
> Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.
> 
> 
> What can the Su-35 do?
> 
> With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.
> 
> According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.
> 
> He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”
> 
> To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> Diplomatic powwow ::
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.
> 
> However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.
> 
> In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.
> 
> So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.
> 
> India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.
> 
> In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.
> 
> 
> Stopping the Kozyrevs ::
> 
> It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.
> 
> Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”
> 
> “However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”
> 
> Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.
> 
> According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.


Self satisfactory article again by a Indian to Indian public ?
Can't be taken seriously cause its just an excuse to show the Indian public every thing is alright & Russians are in our hands ?
What they will get by using these kind of low level prapoganda media stunts ?
Russia ,China USA & Pakistan are not using the theory described by that media stuntman ?
End of story but it shows how Indian media is desperate to down grade the reality that Russians are not with them ,on every issue .


----------



## Humble Analyst

sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday, September 19, 2015
> 
> By : Russia India Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?
> 
> The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.
> 
> Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.
> 
> Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.
> 
> Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.
> 
> Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.
> 
> 
> What can the Su-35 do?
> 
> With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.
> 
> According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.
> 
> He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”
> 
> To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> Diplomatic powwow ::
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.
> 
> However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.
> 
> In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.
> 
> So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.
> 
> India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.
> 
> In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.
> 
> 
> Stopping the Kozyrevs ::
> 
> It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.
> 
> Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”
> 
> “However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”
> 
> Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.
> 
> According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.


This deal will be very good for Pakistan, India and the region. Now you will say why good for India?
As long as there is imbalance of conventional weapons between Pakistan and India, India will be tempted to have a limited war. Limited War concept failed almost always if you read military History. So once conventional balance is restored the chances of nuclear war decrease and region can be secure. Now Russia does not need India as much as India needs Russia to continue to supply parts and armament of Russian origin. Russia will follow the US style of supplying arms to both nations and will have leverage on both. Russia was loyal to India and will be, but once you went ahead and bought Rafale from France, Apache, Sikorsky,Posieden and transports from US/Europe and various other armament from US. Who do you think broke the loyalty? This is not a movie that everything works your way.


----------



## batmannow

TigerJay said:


> @batmannow Without naming names and revealing any identities, I know someone personally who facilitated the on-going talks for Su-35 from the Pakistan side. I came to know about it much earlier before it got into the news. But obviously the deal is not done unless it's done. But let me tell you one more thing that the hopes are very high. Until unless something drastic happens and it's over, let us all keep our fingers crossed and pray for Indian defeat.


I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
Still Pakistan has many options ?



TigerJay said:


> @batmannow Without naming names and revealing any identities, I know someone personally who facilitated the on-going talks for Su-35 from the Pakistan side. I came to know about it much earlier before it got into the news. But obviously the deal is not done unless it's done. But let me tell you one more thing that the hopes are very high. Until unless something drastic happens and it's over, let us all keep our fingers crossed and pray for Indian defeat.


I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
Still Pakistan has many options ?


----------



## Ind4Ever

sarjenprabhu said:


> Su-35s for Pak :: Pie in the sky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday, September 19, 2015
> 
> By : Russia India Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?
> 
> The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.
> 
> Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.
> 
> Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.
> 
> Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.
> 
> Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.
> 
> 
> What can the Su-35 do?
> 
> With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.
> 
> According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.
> 
> He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”
> 
> To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> Diplomatic powwow ::
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.
> 
> However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.
> 
> In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.
> 
> So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.
> 
> India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.
> 
> In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.
> 
> 
> Stopping the Kozyrevs ::
> 
> It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.
> 
> Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”
> 
> “However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”
> 
> Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.
> 
> According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.



Russia should understand there are some lines which India will not like to cross . We expect the same from you . Let's say if Su35 sold to pakistan . This will dent and hurt our nation but we will survive . But what will russia do if India comes up with its own Super sukhoi out of HAL's facility with full western technology and call it Tejas 35 ? Like Chinese did with their J 11 ? And makes agreement with US Aerospace giants to develop AMCA and invest in Japan's 5th gen fighter program ? So we are not out of option but we will undergo hard times at least for two years but we can overcome as US wont waste any time to give india all it wanted and take its relationship to whole new level . As India can tank heavily on chinese power . Only power in asia which can bleed china to the last drop.

If russia sold su35 then India will release some pressure to align with western power wholly and solely and will get advanced war machines from US nuclear submarines to many other futuristic technology . US don't sell its high tech weapon system especially naval vessels as it doubt of confidential infos leaked to russia . India won't stop purchasing western systems whether you like it or not . India will be in better position aligning with west as Our Core enemy is not Pakistan but China . 

So its upto russia what they want to do ... We will reciprocate , That too when leader like Modi at helm our reaction will be very intense for sure . Because problem with selling these weapons will start a new war. As Pakistanis leadership have this habit of declaring war once they get new weapons like in 1965 . So be it .



batmannow said:


> Self satisfactory article again by a Indian to Indian public ?
> Can't be taken seriously cause its just an excuse to show the Indian public every thing is alright & Russians are in our hands ?
> What they will get by using these kind of low level prapoganda media stunts ?
> Russia ,China USA & Pakistan are not using the theory described by that media stuntman ?
> End of story but it shows how Indian media is desperate to down grade the reality that Russians are not with them ,on every issue .



its well written article . Whats wrong with that ? If you check my previous comments i made on related thread you will notice i said the same . Its either a stunt or Confusion created by Pakistan . See Pakistan discussed with russia . That's thge truth but what russia said ? Nothing other than diplomatic answer like " Ok we will look in to it" Or "Let the discussion open then we will decide " So far pakistan did not say what russian replied .But just propaganda bits here and there but all on one truth Pakistan Discussed su35 lol .



Oscar said:


> On the far off chance that it does happen.
> 
> Su-35BM-P 8th Squadron "Haiders"
> 
> View attachment 258576
> 
> View attachment 258577
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China is getting the same configuration as Russia is. Essentially, its the same as the US selling the Block-52 to us. It is the same(if not better configuration in some parameters) to what they operated.
> 
> China bought a 100 RD-93s, now the deal may be direct between Pakistan and Russia.



Keep dreaming India Russia both are matured states . This deal will make both into core enemies . Not in the interest of both


----------



## TigerJay

batmannow said:


> I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
> Still Pakistan has many options ?
> 
> 
> I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
> Still Pakistan has many options ?



I am really not sure about various other options, but it's not like Pakistan's security is totally dependent on Su35s. We can definitely wait for the Chinese platforms and induct them. Also if we are unable to materialize this deal we can look into Rafaels also, since French are quite pissed off with the Indians. They have been behaving quite interestingly lately, I must say. But looking into Rafaels is quite far fetched in this moment. The Russian deal is much much more important for Pakistan in many ways than just buying some fighter jets.


----------



## Asli Lahori1

Ind4Ever said:


> Russia should understand there are some lines which India will not like to cross . We expect the same from you . Let's say if Su35 sold to pakistan . This will dent and hurt our nation but we will survive . But what will russia do if India comes up with its own Super sukhoi out of HAL's facility with full western technology and call it Tejas 35 ? Like Chinese did with their J 11 ? And makes agreement with US Aerospace giants to develop AMCA and invest in Japan's 5th gen fighter program ? So we are not out of option but we will undergo hard times at least for two years but we can overcome as US wont waste any time to give india all it wanted and take its relationship to whole new level . As India can tank heavily on chinese power . Only power in asia which can bleed china to the last drop.
> 
> If russia sold su35 then India will release some pressure to align with western power wholly and solely and will get advanced war machines from US nuclear submarines to many other futuristic technology . US don't sell its high tech weapon system especially naval vessels as it doubt of confidential infos leaked to russia . India won't stop purchasing western systems whether you like it or not . India will be in better position aligning with west as Our Core enemy is not Pakistan but China .
> 
> So its upto russia what they want to do ... We will reciprocate , That too when leader like Modi at helm our reaction will be very intense for sure . Because problem with selling these weapons will start a new war. As Pakistanis leadership have this habit of declaring war once they get new weapons like in 1965 . So be it .
> 
> 
> 
> its well written article . Whats wrong with that ? If you check my previous comments i made on related thread you will notice i said the same . Its either a stunt or Confusion created by Pakistan . See Pakistan discussed with russia . That's thge truth but what russia said ? Nothing other than diplomatic answer like " Ok we will look in to it" Or "Let the discussion open then we will decide " So far pakistan did not say what russian replied .But just propaganda bits here and there but all on one truth Pakistan Discussed su35 lol .
> 
> 
> 
> Keep dreaming India Russia both are matured states . This deal will make both into core enemies . Not in the interest of both



So What Should we buy which would not make you angry?. I understand Russians are under your influence that is why they sold Su 27 and Su 30 to China. (You Indians must have approved the sale). Would it be okay with you if we could buy J11D?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Ind4Ever said:


> Keep dreaming India Russia both are matured states . This deal will make both into core enemies . Not in the interest of both


The tone of your message is proof enough of how much you are burning up inside. Just dont break your keyboard at it.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## dy1022

Someone in here still living in dreams!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## batmannow

Ind4Ever said:


> Russia should understand there are some lines which India will not like to cross . We expect the same from you . Let's say if Su35 sold to pakistan . This will dent and hurt our nation but we will survive . But what will russia do if India comes up with its own Super sukhoi out of HAL's facility with full western technology and call it Tejas 35 ? Like Chinese did with their J 11 ? And makes agreement with US Aerospace giants to develop AMCA and invest in Japan's 5th gen fighter program ? So we are not out of option but we will undergo hard times at least for two years but we can overcome as US wont waste any time to give india all it wanted and take its relationship to whole new level . As India can tank heavily on chinese power . Only power in asia which can bleed china to the last drop.
> 
> If russia sold su35 then India will release some pressure to align with western power wholly and solely and will get advanced war machines from US nuclear submarines to many other futuristic technology . US don't sell its high tech weapon system especially naval vessels as it doubt of confidential infos leaked to russia . India won't stop purchasing western systems whether you like it or not . India will be in better position aligning with west as Our Core enemy is not Pakistan but China .
> 
> So its upto russia what they want to do ... We will reciprocate , That too when leader like Modi at helm our reaction will be very intense for sure . Because problem with selling these weapons will start a new war. As Pakistanis leadership have this habit of declaring war once they get new weapons like in 1965 . So be it .
> 
> 
> 
> its well written article . Whats wrong with that ? If you check my previous comments i made on related thread you will notice i said the same . Its either a stunt or Confusion created by Pakistan . See Pakistan discussed with russia . That's thge truth but what russia said ? Nothing other than diplomatic answer like " Ok we will look in to it" Or "Let the discussion open then we will decide " So far pakistan did not say what russian replied .But just propaganda bits here and there but all on one truth Pakistan Discussed su35 lol .
> 
> 
> 
> Keep dreaming India Russia both are matured states . This deal will make both into core enemies . Not in the interest of both


We the problem is with triple of our arms & our military India still lives in a dream world that we will attack India for now reasons ?
That's the mind set , what we are against of ?
& that's what that dam stupid article is prapogating ?
Fuuny thing is if Russia sell us the su 35 India will become enemy of Russia ,then what will happen ?
Ohh nearly whole Indian air force & navay will be sitting without.supplies & amo ?
Will that makes India strong ?
Stop over thinking , its happening just don't bang your head to Russian embsy walls in Delhi ?lolzz


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## batmannow

TigerJay said:


> I am really not sure about various other options, but it's not like Pakistan's security is totally dependent on Su35s. We can definitely wait for the Chinese platforms and induct them. Also if we are unable to materialize this deal we can look into Rafaels also, since French are quite pissed off with the Indians. They have been behaving quite interestingly lately, I must say. But looking into Rafaels is quite far fetched in this moment. The Russian deal is much much more important for Pakistan in many ways than just buying some fighter jets.


I don't think Pakistan will be intersted in any western platform cause it will land us in some other kargill ?
No I don't think we will go with French or US , i think the su -35 deal go ahead just we want to discuss the further future up grades & munufaturing of the amo used in SU -35 at our soil ?
That's where the talks are now ?
We still have the option to make it , as a joint venture between China ,Russia ,& Pakistan & i think its with in 2months we can hear some thing credeble on the issue ?

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## $@rJen

Shariq786 said:


> you tell me what is the 2nd Option you have after Russia meaning getting everything without strings ??? And how French screwed you ??? Remember MMRCA deal which included TOT 120 Jets and training with the Price tag of 10 to 15 Billion $ max ?? Now only 36 Jets no TOT and Price TAG half like around 7 to 8 Billion $ ??
> 
> You are dodging the ques Dude i m asking you can you afford to loose or remove all the future military plans with Russia can you afford it if Russia do the same with you ??
> 
> Ok let me give you a scenario in this INDIA says no to Russia on future military plans Russia does the same and says no more military stuff to you guys you break economic ties as well with Russia .. China see Russia Falling and grab the opportunity to get another brother state like PAK by offering them different economic messures Russia declines but get some support from CHINA and still gets up CHINA gains another partner which is cut out from the world and totally relying on them for the economic reasons like PAK on the other Side your military your navy your airforce which totally rellies on Russia gets a big hit with no more spares or future procuments comming without strings any more you have to replace your front line fighters on emergency basis need 2nd strike capabilties and sub on emergency basis need new tanks on emergency basis because you cannot maintain all that stuff even for a decade without Russian spares do you think you can do all that with your current economy in a Decade and from where will you get those stuff from EU and you think EU will make such decision on its own Without Uncle SAM you'll Die with them my friend



We already operate french fleet of fighters.. what string was attached??? none. tey're not american... ya now its 7 billion that includes the life cycle and spares... which is a great deal.. we bought mki for less, you know how much its costing us in spares and maintenance?? Its a nightmare for IAF... Rafale deal is damn good.

I didn't dodge the question??/ I'm asking you the same, can the russians avoid INdian Markets??? Hell no... if they did they don't have a economy anymore. they'll never leave.. why do you think they'll go away??? and what's their backup plan Pakistan???? that's joke.

First the scenario is wrong.. let not bring a Scenarion, we can Talk on the reality... India will not say and can't say no to future jet procurement from Russia because it co-developed.. and russia can't do anything on it. No idiot will breat economic ties because we didn't buy planes from them.. American and Russians are enemies.. Chinese and Americans are enemies.. go and check inspite of all the tension that's going on how their trade is booming. Do tell me getting Pakistan what does Russia Gain??? Its nothing, how much money can you spent in buying from them??? how much trade can you do??? Dude talk about reality not your imagination... and you buying more weapons from Russia how do you think China is going to react to tha?? Do you think china will just sit and watch??? hell no.. recently you guys were interested in a Turkish helo... chinese didn't like that they sent you 3 of their helo for free and they're going to make you buy the rest of the no that's Pakistan need.

Do you know the amount of commercial contracts b/w India-Russia its more than 100 Billion... i don't think so a 10% of this amount can be filled by Pakistan. China already has eco ties with them and there's not going to be significant change. do you really think Russia is going to totally depend on China.. No, they hate China so much.. for Russians China is still a threat... do you have any idea what's gong on b/w them now??? China is using this Russian santion opportunity to gey tot on weapons from them.. Russians have no option they're giving in. 

Please there's no Economic hope on Pakistan.. Prove my otherwise... and don't bring CEPEC its not worth it...

on the other hand Russian economy is totally relies on us to... from weapons to nuclear and commercial contracts they can earn 100-200 billion, what makes you tink they'll throw away this mammoth for 8-10 billion weapon and trade with Pakistan??? talk reality Dude....

Why do you think EU listens to Ameriicans??? there are lots of things France did to us without giving a **** to Americans... Don't think Americans can put pressure on EU and every issue... leave about the fighters... Americans couldn't even make the french to put sanction on us during when India was developing Nukes. 

And as i stated yearlier... this is s pressure tactics by russians and no more than tht. so what if we buy french fighters?? we already have many of them.. these are talks they'll not give you those toys once we give them a little attention, lets say if we give them the sub deal, then forget about Su-35 talks emerging in any news paper


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## TigerJay

batmannow said:


> I don't think Pakistan will be intersted in any western platform cause it will land us in some other kargill ?
> No I don't think we will go with French or US , i think the su -35 deal go ahead just we want to discuss the further future up grades & munufaturing of the amo used in SU -35 at our soil ?
> That's where the talks are now ?
> We still have the option to make it , as a joint venture between China ,Russia ,& Pakistan & i think its with in 2months we can hear some thing credeble on the issue ?



I agree, but I was saying in the worst case scenario or and to push Bharat further that can come under consideration. Not very likely though. Regarding the ammo, if a deal works out Russians will mod it to carry also Chinese ammo as well as some other modifications in relations to western standards. It will be a more potent and more tailor made solution according to the PAF needs.

All this has been discussed in the initial talks. And the joint venture is imminent in any such deal even without Russia being part of it. China will only purchase it in small numbers and without Pakistan buying it too they won't either.

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## tarrar

Indian crap.

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## Mani2020

@TigerJay 

If you were to be believed with regards to what you said I.e. having known someone who is facilitating these talks ...would you like to enlighten us about the current progress in talks and a rough estimate of numbers into consideration?


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## tarrar

Good many of the questions are answered in this topic.

PAF needs a long range heavy weight fighter & SU35 is the right choice. India on the other hand will try to become an obstacle in this deal even though they have mostly shifted towards US & are more interested in buying US hardware products. I hope this deal is inked & finalized ASAP & PAF gets good number of SU35.


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## TigerJay

Mani2020 said:


> @TigerJay
> 
> If you were to be believed with regards to what you said I.e. having known someone who is facilitating these talks ...would you like to enlighten us about the current progress in talks and a rough estimate of numbers into consideration?



This is all that has been discussed by now. The numbers are already in the news, it will be more than or 2 SQD. Can go up to 50. PAF wants the Russians to mod them as per their needs along with the capability of using Chinese ammo.

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## tarrar

If the deal is inked & finalized, then PAF should try to acquire SU35 in great number & also PA will have increase the number of Hinds as both of them will serve really well in PD.

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## Ind4Ever

Oscar said:


> The tone of your message is proof enough of how much you are burning up inside. Just dont break your keyboard at it.



Yes of course what is wrong with that ? You want Indians to celebrate if Russia sells Su35 to PAF ? But will they sell it to you ? Or you will keeping dreaming Su35 flying over your head while we get PakFa and Rafale ?Just to avoid you burning ?


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## SQ8

Ind4Ever said:


> Yes of course what is wrong with that ? You want Indians to celebrate if Russia sells Su35 to PAF ? But will they sell it to you ? Or you will keeping dreaming Su35 flying over your head while we get PakFa and Rafale ?Just to avoid you burning ?



Actually I have no interest in the Su-35. I see it as a no need, no brainier. You are only one whose post are so telling of anger and burn at this non starter of a deal that I can almost see the froth in your mouth.

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## GURU DUTT

Ranasikander said:


> This gives Pakistan an opportunity to milk uncle sam more.
> We know how to handle uncle sam and achieving our goals at the same.
> 
> Usa never wanted us to be a nuclear power, but we did it while sucking the american aid at the same time.
> 
> We are getting aid from usa buyong weapons from them but at the same time we are Chinese stratgic ally and partner.
> 
> Cpec is progressing despite american and india opposition.
> 
> Uncle sam is powerful but let them face the fact that we they not God.


well you sure did milk USA but at what cost ..... you are getting dividents from USA now for your "milking USA in past" dont worry a new payback by your all weather friends is also underway just wieght and watch 



nadeemkhan110 said:


> That's what he is saying we DON't care Mr


of realli 

dont worry its just a trailor of things to come your way .... picture to abhi baaki hai mere dost


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## Ind4Ever

batmannow said:


> We the problem is with triple of our arms & our military India still lives in a dream world that we will attack India for now reasons ?
> That's the mind set , what we are against of ?
> & that's what that dam stupid article is prapogating ?
> *Fuuny thing is if Russia sell us the su 35 India will become enemy of Russia* ,then what will happen ?
> Ohh nearly whole Indian air force & navay will be sitting without.supplies & amo ?
> Will that makes India strong ?
> Stop over thinking , its happening just don't bang your head to Russian embsy walls in Delhi ?lolzz


 Who is selling you Su35 in first place ? See its a matter of fact Pakistan will start another war claiming J&K and Punjab like you declared war in 1965? Because you have very superior Tanks , jets wat not ? Cooperations with US UK China . You thought you can defeat a wounded india due 1962 debacle . But what happened ? So we are not worried about you invading India but worried about unnecessary war .



Oscar said:


> Actually I have no interest in the Su-35. I see it as a no need, no brainier. You are only one whose post are so telling of anger and burn at this non starter of a deal that I can almost see the froth in your mouth.



Of Course we don't want it happen . Give me one good reason why i should be happy for PAF if they get Su35 ? There is no need for research to know this . Know no why you are so obsessed to know it ? So i guess just a feel good factor for u after whole years of burning sensation ?


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## black-hawk_101

Heard that SU-35s are for PNAF?


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## Genghis khan1

Ind4Ever said:


> Russia should understand there are some lines which India will not like to cross . We expect the same from you . Let's say if Su35 sold to pakistan . This will dent and hurt our nation but we will survive . But what will russia do if India comes up with its own Super sukhoi out of HAL's facility with full western technology and call it Tejas 35 ? Like Chinese did with their J 11 ? And makes agreement with US Aerospace giants to develop AMCA and invest in Japan's 5th gen fighter program ? So we are not out of option but we will undergo hard times at least for two years but we can overcome as US wont waste any time to give india all it wanted and take its relationship to whole new level . As India can tank heavily on chinese power . Only power in asia which can bleed china to the last drop.
> 
> If russia sold su35 then India will release some pressure to align with western power wholly and solely and will get advanced war machines from US nuclear submarines to many other futuristic technology . US don't sell its high tech weapon system especially naval vessels as it doubt of confidential infos leaked to russia . India won't stop purchasing western systems whether you like it or not . India will be in better position aligning with west as Our Core enemy is not Pakistan but China .
> 
> So its upto russia what they want to do ... We will reciprocate , That too when leader like Modi at helm our reaction will be very intense for sure . Because problem with selling these weapons will start a new war. As Pakistanis leadership have this habit of declaring war once they get new weapons like in 1965 . So be it .
> 
> 
> 
> its well written article . Whats wrong with that ? If you check my previous comments i made on related thread you will notice i said the same . Its either a stunt or Confusion created by Pakistan . See Pakistan discussed with russia . That's thge truth but what russia said ? Nothing other than diplomatic answer like " Ok we will look in to it" Or "Let the discussion open then we will decide " So far pakistan did not say what russian replied .But just propaganda bits here and there but all on one truth Pakistan Discussed su35 lol .
> 
> 
> 
> Keep dreaming India Russia both are matured states . This deal will make both into core enemies . Not in the interest of both




1. Indians loves to drawing lines and expect rest of the world to respect their imaginary lines. Like a psycho chick in a Bollywood movie. It's time, Indian policy makers should grow-up. Nobody gives a flying F about lines and limits drawn by Indians. 

2. Considering new and upgraded F-16s, Large numbers of JF-17s Block III with AESA , HMD and all other 4+ generation Air to Air and Air to ground gadget, Possible 5th generation fighter, AWACS and new SAMs under consideration. SU-35 will not be a dent, you are talking about some serious IAF ***-kicking.  

3. There is a day and night difference b/w Indian and Chinese expertise, Industry and reverse engineering capability. Forget about J-11, I doubt Indians can even reserve engineers their own TATA motors . Despite having a foreign assistance, HAL took decades to build a helicopter. At the end, Indians paid Germans to do their job.

4. Indian needs best of US tech to counter for sale best of Russia and Chinese tech. US is not selling India any state of the art technology. Keep dreaming. US never sells tier 1 technology even to Israel or UK. 

As far as Modi reaction is concerned, there is an idioms for this "Barking Dogs Seldom Bite" ...


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## Ind4Ever

Genghis khan1 said:


> 1. Indians loves to drawing lines and expect rest of the world to respect their imaginary lines. Like a psycho chick in a Bollywood movie. It's time, Indian policy makers should grow-up. Nobody gives a flying F about lines and limits drawn by Indians.
> 
> 2. Considering new and upgraded F-16s, Large numbers of JF-17s Block III with AESA , HMD and all other 4+ generation Air to Air and Air to ground gadget, Possible 5th generation fighter, AWACS and new SAMs under consideration. SU-35 will not be a dent, you are talking about some serious IAF ***-kicking.
> 
> 3. There is a day and night difference b/w Indian and Chinese expertise, Industry and reverse engineering capability. Forget about J-11, I doubt Indians can even reserve engineers their own TATA motors . Despite having a foreign assistance, HAL took decades to build a helicopter. At the end, Indians paid Germans to do their job.
> 
> 4. Indian needs best of US tech to counter for sale best of Russia and Chinese tech. US is not selling India any state of the art technology. Keep dreaming. US never sells tier 1 technology even to Israel or UK.
> 
> As far as Modi reaction is concerned, there is an idioms for this "Barking Dogs Seldom Bite" ...



Pak-Russia talks on Su-35 pressure tactics to get Pak-fa deal from India? | idrw.org

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## Genghis khan1

Ind4Ever said:


> Pak-Russia talks on Su-35 pressure tactics to get Pak-fa deal from India? | idrw.org


Russian oil depended economy is going down the drain due to sanctions. They need money. They prefer selling Pakistan original SU-35 instead of them losing money and seeing PAF flying Chinese made clone of SU-35. 
Russians are not only selling jets, they are buying strategic friendship and leverage in the region against US domination. Indians are pretty much depended on Russian hardware. Sooner or later, Russian knows Indian will come back to them.

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## Sinnerman108

GURU DUTT said:


> but the point is do you have money to "buy su-35" form russia



Aur mera beta kyoun paraishan ho raha hai ?

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## Kakaspai

GURU DUTT said:


> but the point is do you have money to "buy su-35" form russia


Why cant you come up with a good argument. You have been repeating the same line for years


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## Secret Service

GURU DUTT said:


> but the point is do you have money to "buy su-35" form russia


for last few days, you re saying same thing again and again. we dont have money. so just chill and relax...


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## Sinnerman108

GURU DUTT said:


> is this thread about indian dept ?
> 
> is this thread about toilets ?
> 
> MODS sir take a look at this troller @waz @Slav Defence @Oscar @WebMaster



Beta Beta ...

Think of it this way.

Sukhoi from Russia
Buyer =Pakistan

Now, what are hindu-stanis doing on this thread ?

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## I M Sikander

The rona dhona of indians is just amazing


Whether mig 35 deal materialize or not but we will always remember the butt hurt of indians on Pak russia weapon trade.

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## Viper0011.

BATTLE FIELD said:


> russia wants to eat mangoes from both's countries tree.



But sell SU-35's ONLY to Pakistan. Man, these Pakistani Manogies must have magic wand type taste and effect in it. When Modi gets those, he couldn't start a war even though he craves one. When Russians get those, the forget India and start talking about supplying the latest jets to Pakistan. MAN, even I want these Mangoes. May be I can send it to some people who need to give me a favor and I'll get huge ones


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## fatman17

I am not saying its going to happen but Russia's stance towards Pakistan is changing.

1. sales of RD93 engine over Indian objections.
2. entry of Pakistan in SCO over Indian objections.
3. lifting of self imposed arms embargo on Pakistan.
4. sales of Mi35 attack helos to Pakistan albeit in limited numbers which is Pakistan's problem not Russia.

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## airuah

India accounts for 40 percent of Russia 's military exports . 

No sane country will want to spoil this so that they can make a few pennies by selling to the enemy of its biggest client.


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## batmannow

Ind4Ever said:


> Who is selling you Su35 in first place ? See its a matter of fact Pakistan will start another war claiming J&K and Punjab like you declared war in 1965? Because you have very superior Tanks , jets wat not ? Cooperations with US UK China . You thought you can defeat a wounded india due 1962 debacle . But what happened ? So we are not worried about you invading India but worried about unnecessary war .
> 
> 
> 
> Of Course we don't want it happen . Give me one good reason why i should be happy for PAF if they get Su35 ? There is no need for research to know this . Know no why you are so obsessed to know it ? So i guess just a feel good factor for u after whole years of burning sensation ?


If you don't know who is selling us SU 35 then why you bother to post here ?lolzz
Mr ,india4never ?lolzz



airuah said:


> India accounts for 40 percent of Russia 's military exports .
> 
> No sane country will want to spoil this so that they can make a few pennies by selling to the enemy of its biggest client.


Money can't stop a superpower its strategic decisions ,stop living in fools Paradise cause it will be only India which will be suffering ?lolzz


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## untitled

@Oscar 

The PAF logo on a fighter. That is a first


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## batmannow

Genghis khan1 said:


> Russian oil depended economy is going down the drain due to sanctions. They need money. They prefer selling Pakistan original SU-35 instead of them losing money and seeing PAF flying Chinese made clone of SU-35.
> Russians are not only selling jets, they are buying strategic friendship and leverage in the region against US domination. Indians are pretty much depended on Russian hardware. Sooner or later, Russian knows Indian will come back to them.


Dam.Indian media ,trying its best to put water on the super fire in the ugly dhotis ?lolzz


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## airuah

batmannow said:


> If you don't know who is selling us SU 35 then why you bother to post here ?lolzz
> Mr ,india4never ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Money can't stop a superpower its strategic decisions ,stop living in fools Paradise cause it will be only India which will be suffering ?lolzz


No one sacrifices a bishop for a pawn.


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## batmannow

Genghis khan1 said:


> Russian oil depended economy is going down the drain due to sanctions. They need money. They prefer selling Pakistan original SU-35 instead of them losing money and seeing PAF flying Chinese made clone of SU-35.
> Russians are not only selling jets, they are buying strategic friendship and leverage in the region against US domination. Indians are pretty much depended on Russian hardware. Sooner or later, Russian knows Indian will come back to them.


Dam.Indian media ,trying its best to put water on the super fire in the ugly dhotis ?lolzz


airuah said:


> No one sacrifices a bishop for a pawn.


& Gandhi always smiles at everything ?lolzz
Can you do the same ,SU35 to Pakistan ?right


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## batmannow

jaiind said:


> man, so many threads are running on su 35 for pak. you will know who is desperate for what..


Try to count the post , its 60% Indians trying to save their country on PDF ?
Self denial is the indian virtue ?lolzz


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## Ind4Ever

Pak-Russia talks on Su-35 pressure tactics to get Pak-fa deal from India? | idrw.org


batmannow said:


> If you don't know who is selling us SU 35 then why you bother to post here ?lolzz
> Mr ,india4never ?lolzz


Can you give any source on Russia's answer towards your deal ? lol Am Indian whatsoever  because am Indian4Ever



persona_non_grata said:


> @Oscar
> 
> The PAF logo on a fighter. That is a first



And i think you should also design a picture in which Su35 firing missile at India  

Always DREAM BIG


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## GURU DUTT

airuah said:


> India accounts for 40 percent of Russia 's military exports .
> 
> No sane country will want to spoil this so that they can make a few pennies by selling to the enemy of its biggest client.


first look which country has such dreams in the first place 

rather they say russia will sell wepons to pakistan over indian reservations as india is in no position to loose russia (what they forget is ammount of russian jobs online if something of this type ever happens) but then since they think they have China as a friend who also happens to buy 40% of russian hardware like india russia will side by china and pakistan alliance forgeting pakistani equation with chechen rebels and ukrien and what india did for russia when russia needed it most


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## PakEye

Abu Namr said:


> Most probably Russia playing with Pakistan and Pakistan also for two reasons
> 1- Russia want India to get jets from Russia only
> 2- Pakistan is telling USA if not you provide high tech weapons we can purchase from Russia.
> It is game if Pakistan needs these type of Fighter we can get from China easily since we can't trust bear so that the Bear.


Pakistan and Russia are seriously building their defence trade the Mi35 is solid proof that this is not a game of pressure .


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## Super Falcon

Yazp said:


> And I posted something related about this Su-35 deal, and my post was deleted because of "spreading rumors".


Bhai i was one before u said SU 35 paf to buy every one acted like as they acted once to a a scientist who said human will fly one day and they said he is crack from mind 

Anyway SU 35 is king in air it is top of line jet only F 22 and T 50 surpases him but it can stil be threat to both these

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## Great Sachin

Thorough Pro said:


> You can\t play the same "afford to lose" card with the limited number of suppliers when you own industry sucks at producing anything on it's own. Russia also sells to China so what did you do?


China is big market....why Russia will take risk losing big maket of India for tiny deal with Pakistan



fatman17 said:


> I am not saying its going to happen but Russia's stance towards Pakistan is changing.
> 
> 1. sales of RD93 engine over Indian objections.
> 2. entry of Pakistan in SCO over Indian objections.
> 3. lifting of self imposed arms embargo on Pakistan.
> 4. sales of Mi35 attack helos to Pakistan albeit in limited numbers which is Pakistan's problem not Russia.


I thought Pakistan is in BRICS


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## Knight Rider

Foxtrot Delta said:


> *Air superiority aircraft is the terminology you are looking for.*



Okay......................... AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER

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## araz

zebra7 said:


> Sir I fully believe that Su35 is coming to Pakistan only few questions regarding Su35.
> 
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.
> 
> 2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin
> 
> 3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.
> 
> 4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.
> 
> 5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.
> 
> 
> Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
> 
> 1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
> 2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
> 3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
> 4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
> 5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
> via wiretransfer.
> 6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
> 7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.
> 8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.


Iwould not be as jingoistic as you but I do agree with most of your post. Iran is currently under sanctions and with the problems with dealing with the Iranian regime in the current environment it is impossible to go down that route.
ÌF the russians do agree to sell and PAF DO agree to buy the deal is still far away a lot can still go wrong. I do not see PAF in any shape to integrate a newer platform till2020 so A deal needs to be signed by 2017-18. Let us see what happens.


zebra7 said:


> Wallekum Assalam. Thanks for all the pics and information about radar range, weapons, dogfight video with F35.
> Janaab is there any confirmed news on the sale of Su 35 or we are just beating the bush because if the news is confirmed for the talk is it necessary that the deal will takes place and if the deal does not take place and Indians make the deal with the Russian for the Su35 than the problem would be.
> 
> *All our Chanting, all ITTSII BINNI DOT BIKINI and all uploads of pics, video and Mashallah...... would be waisted and these Indians members don't have to do anything or to say anything and we will be back with JF17.*
> 
> Moral of the Story don't speak too loud before the final call bakki aap log jayda samajdhar hai.
> 
> Khuda Haffiz.





TigerJay said:


> @batmannow Without naming names and revealing any identities, I know someone personally who facilitated the on-going talks for Su-35 from the Pakistan side. I came to know about it much earlier before it got into the news. But obviously the deal is not done unless it's done. But let me tell you one more thing that the hopes are very high. Until unless something drastic happens and it's over, let us all keep our fingers crossed and pray for Indian defeat.


PLEASE dont quote any of your sources names ranksor even the fact that you know them on an open forum. There has been too much of this I know this or that and not only is this harmful cor the country it could b3 danderrous for you and the person involved. We have had to deal with a recent incidence of such nature. We dont want a repeat of it. Only published open media and authenticated news please. Just some friendly and very sincere advice.
Kind regards
Araz

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## aliyusuf

noroker daroan said:


> is it possible to check indian commercial ships crossing arabian sea route by SU 35 alone ?



Pakistan's objective has and will always (likely) to be able to prevent India from blockading Pakistan's merchant shipping and to safeguard its maritime operations and interests. It would endeavor to achieve this through the combination of air support, surface vessels and submarines. Pakistan is getting additional submarines (6 I think) and several surface vessels in this context.

Currently the air support is primarily with the JF-17 of Sqd# 2 (Minhas) at Masroor base Karachi. As far as providing air support and fleet cover over its territorial and exclusive economic zone waters is concerned ... the JF-17 is quite adequate. Further induction of the JF-17 at Masroor is quite likely, as it is in process of replacing out the older Mirages and F-7s. The thunder is evolving and its later blocks will be much more potent.

Su-35 will definitely extend the reach and enhance the potency of that cover. Especially so, when viewed in the context of the strategic aspects of the CPEC and Gwadar scenario and Chinese interests.

Pakistan Navy is too small to blockade Indian shipping. It can cause hindrances at certain corridors for a certain time but that is about it. Furthermore air power alone cannot totally enforce a blockade.

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## Pindi Boy

special said:


> lol.. you pakistanis are really fools..
> pakistani is not US or china to buy 2 expensive fighters at same time.
> Turkish TFX, j-31, j-20, SU 35!!!!!!!!!!! what is this?? list of fighter jets of neighboring countries!!??? shame on you pakistanis to show proud on some else product. Turkey and china is not pakistan, they are developing fighter jets for themselves and for export, not to gift pakistan. you neither have the financial capacity nor have the infrastructure to buy these fighters simultaneously. an order for Su-35 means deal for j-31 is dead. with only 7 billion $ you think that you can buy all these fighters???  now think who is in delusion.
> india is developing AMCA, and will have PAK FA in a JV. so two 5 gen fighters as the same time. pakistanis, don't consider yourself as powerful as US or china. even with a defense budget of $45 billion(drastically increasing in every year) india found it little bit difficult to maintain to two 5 gen. fighter programs. so what you pakistanis can do with only $7 billion!!??
> 
> 
> russia is going to introduce pak fa in 2016. india will get it in 2018. by the time pakistan(if they order the SU-35) have su-35.
> 
> 
> no, like in 1971.


even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory


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## Great Sachin

usama fiaz said:


> even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory


then stop blaming India..blame yourself


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## Yazp

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai i was one before u said SU 35 paf to buy every one acted like as they acted once to a a scientist who said human will fly one day and they said he is crack from mind
> 
> Anyway SU 35 is king in air it is top of line jet only F 22 and T 50 surpases him but it can stil be threat to both these


I know, right?


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

aliyusuf said:


> Pakistan's objective has and will always (likely) to be able to prevent India from blockading Pakistan's merchant shipping and to safeguard its maritime operations and interests. It would endeavor to achieve this through the combination of air support, surface vessels and submarines. Pakistan is getting additional submarines (6 I think) and several surface vessels in this context.
> 
> Currently the air support is primarily with the JF-17 of Sqd# 2 (Minhas) at Masroor base Karachi. As far as providing air support and fleet cover over its territorial and exclusive economic zone waters is concerned ... the JF-17 is quite adequate. Further induction of the JF-17 at Masroor is quite likely, as it is in process of replacing out the older Mirages and F-7s. The thunder is evolving and its later blocks will be much more potent.
> 
> Su-35 will definitely extend the reach and enhance the potency of that cover. Especially so, when viewed in the context of the strategic aspects of the CPEC and Gwadar scenario and Chinese interests.
> 
> Pakistan Navy is too small to blockade Indian shipping. It can cause hindrances at certain corridors for a certain time but that is about it. Furthermore air power alone cannot totally enforce a blockade.





So i must say Pakistan is gonna buy them cuz of Russia's interest in CPEC as world portrayed before Pakistan a failed sate/economy,if not in short numbers we are gonna see them in Pakistan Air force tag Soon  InshAllah in at least 2 squadrons or so Thts what is called truth prevails and God is the only source of Fame.

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## Manindra

I am not able to understand role of Su-35 for naval patrol.
As they are single seat fighter excel in Air superiority role & excellent dog fighter.
It would be make more sense to procure Su-30s which are dual seater & have more ground attack capability compared to Su-35 .
In economic sense also Su-30s fair good because only RAF operate it in small nos.
So, spare parts would be costly & scare compared to widely used Su-30s


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## aliyusuf

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> So i must say Pakistan is gonna buy them cuz of Russia's interest in CPEC as world portrayed before Pakistan a failed sate/economy,if not in short numbers we are gonna see them in Pakistan Air force tag Soon  InshAllah in at least 2 squadrons or so Thts what is called truth prevails and God is the only source of Fame.



All we know for a fact is that there have been some talks on possible Su-35 sales between Russia and Pakistan. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is speculation at this point.. I too would love to see this plane in PAF colors but my wishes have no impact on how the talks will end up. These are usually long protracted processes and it may take a while before anything definitive and concrete comes out in the open. So lets be patient and wait and see how things turn up.


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Manindra said:


> I am not able to understand role of Su-35 for naval patrol.
> As they are single seat fighter excel in Air superiority role & excellent dog fighter.
> It would be make more sense to procure Su-30s which are dual seater & have more ground attack capability compared to Su-35 .
> In economic sense also Su-30s fair good because only RAF operate it in small nos.
> So, spare parts would be costly & scare compared to widely used Su-30s



For Engine/spare parts are as same as JF17 we dont need to worry there but frames aren't a big probs also as RAF may look to increase its numbers (seniors may guide better on this) as its latest one too + we dont need an exact thing same as Indians,may be it will get Navalised for Pak Navy + CPEC has a danger frm our Indian brothers too as they arnt joining CPEC,in near future i guess so it has to be something for PAF too + SU 35 had to be better sea surface/Under Sea capability too

[QUOTE="I guess so it has to be something for PAF too + SU 35 had to be better sea surface/Under Sea capability too[/QUOTE] 
Seniors can guide on this too

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## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Comparing the size of your brains is what we are doing now & its still smaller then moodi jee , s burned b@lls ?lolzz
> Now I have question why you are so interested in SU-35s even India is not getting it?


but our Pakistan is having it


TigerJay said:


> You're just super troll and nothing beyond that, but for someone who has more brains than a peanut I would like to respond to your questions, but literally not for you.
> 
> 1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program then what are the advantages of our Su35 over Super Sukhoi 30MKI.
> 
> Actually many, just google it. Specially that, before the MKI can see Su35s, they will be tracked and hunted. So it provides a very distinctive advantage.
> 
> 2. Is it 100% sanction proof though it is not of US origin
> 
> Nothing is sanction proof in this world. Not even Indian deals with French or the the US.
> 
> 3. How much Su35 is needed to counter and have deterance IAF.
> 
> Many, and which is why Pakistan needs to be aggressive about this deal and then workout a deal to induct 5 gen.
> 
> 4. Can you confirm Su35 sale to China.
> 
> Nobody needs to confirm nothing here. It's your effing problem you do it.,
> 
> 5. Can Su35 beat j31 in air fight.
> 
> You're really a troll. Su35 will never be put against J31. In fact Su35s now and J31s on the later stage will provide PAF and extra advantage.
> 
> Good janab yeh indians bus Chabar Chabar kaar rahe hai.
> Indians have a bad habit of beating the wrong drums. History proves it.
> 
> 1. Gawadar has more security than chabar.
> 
> Yes it has
> 
> 2. Gawadar have more infrastructure than chabar.
> 
> No, but that's exactly what is being done right now.
> 
> 3. Gawadar can only provide the route to central Asia.
> 
> Not the only but it has many advantage over Chabahar. For example Chabahar needs acces through Pakistan waters, but Gwadar is not dependent on any other country for it's access. And Chabahar is a Gulf only port while Gwadar is an International port.
> 
> 4. Gawadar is the only port option for the chinese to reach arabian ocean.
> 
> Yes it's the only.
> 
> 5. Gawadar and all CPEC project have been finalized and deal signed and $40Bn transfered
> via wiretransfer.
> 
> Lame. Because it is India which is crying over CPEC and not Pakistan. CPEC is the reality of future but you can't comprehend the outcome of it or you just just don't want to.
> 
> 6. Indians are Idiot to deny Su35 the best fighter plane in asia.
> 
> They probably are. but then are even stupid, first to discuss possibilities for Rafael, then back out from it and then go back in again.
> 
> 7. Su 35 is the export sucess with hundereds of Russian, Chinese and now pakistani order.
> 
> What's your point here? Are you saying it's not a good plane? What exactly are you doing here on this blog then? Go have some rest. And really save everyone from your trolls.
> 
> 8. Russia have now pakistan as a friend because they realise better defence market than indians and will provide pakistan with the woldclass and best tech. whom India don't have any answer.
> 
> Whenever you look at things regarding Pakistan, you do not have to keep forgetting it's never only about Pakistan and it's about, Russia-China-Pakistan Axis. So yes, it is much bigger and lucrative market for your tiny brain to comprehend.
> 
> 
> OK.


Thanks for the brief answer and yes you are right i have a brain of peanut size.

1. Google what after Super Sukhoi upgrade which could easily be upgraded to Aesa Bars or Ibris-e radar and since the weight would be less so they probably remove the canards. Does Su35s does not comes from the Sukhoi 27 family and how many su35s is needed for 300 mki.

2. Then why to fear sir for the sanction by US.

3. I was asking for the numbers min required for the deterance and can paf have funds for that because russians might not give the soft loans.

4. This question i asked for the help that chinese could give for our paf for chinese weapons to be loaded and in case russia ditched us for some reason. Chinese official during paris show of jf17 said that there is no official deal between russia and china for su35 and chinese surely interested in ibris-e aesa and its engine because they are lagging in that field with russia don't you think.

5. Why ? Is it really possible that su35 could not be sold to india in future or su35 won't face j31 because both are for the exports and not necessorily it is meant for paf or plaaf. I was asking for the result because you know i have peanut size brain and you have coconut size thats why.


Aur Janab i was doing tareef for the gadawar and you are giving me the troll tamga.

1. does the proposed 40billion dollar spend by chinese don't have to paid back with interest.
2. don't you think russians or the chinese might be interested in chabar linking iran, afganistan, tajakistan, russia, china, and middle east.



TigerJay said:


> @batmannow Without naming names and revealing any identities, I know someone personally who facilitated the on-going talks for Su-35 from the Pakistan side. I came to know about it much earlier before it got into the news. But obviously the deal is not done unless it's done. But let me tell you one more thing that the hopes are very high. Until unless something drastic happens and it's over, let us all keep our fingers crossed and pray for Indian defeat.



Take tips from @zarwan


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## Manindra

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> For Engine/spare parts are as same as JF17 we dont need to worry there but frames aren't a big probs also as RAF may look to increase its numbers (seniors may guide better on this) as its latest one too


Su-35 uses F117 engine, JF-17 uses RD 93 engine.


> + we don't need an exact thing same as Indians,


Well, all flanker operators use either Su-27 or 30 not only India.


> may be it will get Navalised for Pak Navy + CPEC has a danger frm our Indian brothers too as they arnt joining CPEC,in near future i guess so it has to be something for PAF too + SU 35 had to be better sea surface/Under Sea capability too


Su-35 is mainly air superiority & have less Air to ground capability compared to Su-30s, so naval role option fell short in favour of Su-30 instead of 35.

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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

aliyusuf said:


> All we know for a fact is that there have been some talks on possible Su-35 sales between Russia and Pakistan. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is speculation at this point.. I too would love to see this plane in PAF colors but my wishes have no impact on how the talks will end up. These are usually long protracted processes and it may take a while before anything definitive and concrete comes out in the open. So lets be patient and wait and see how things turn up.


Pretty much Realistic approach summed it pretty nice thnx  But apart from tht we should be optimistic cuz its part of big strategic game too

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## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Try to count the post , its 60% Indians trying to save their country on PDF ?
> Self denial is the indian virtue ?lolzz


Yes.............. Don't you dare Indians
Sahi hai na Janab



noroker daroan said:


> is it possible to check indian commercial ships crossing arabian sea route by SU 35 alone ?


Mashallah !! Great Going !!



Manindra said:


> I am not able to understand role of Su-35 for naval patrol.
> As they are single seat fighter excel in Air superiority role & excellent dog fighter.
> It would be make more sense to procure Su-30s which are dual seater & have more ground attack capability compared to Su-35 .
> In economic sense also Su-30s fair good because only RAF operate it in small nos.
> So, spare parts would be costly & scare compared to widely used Su-30s


Don't you see Su35 can block all Indian Ships to middle east

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## Rahil khan

Let's suppose PAF gets say 40 odd Su 35s.....will it create any difference to India who has got 5 times more budget plus all the American and French equipment at disposal or in pipeline...?? Absolutely not....PAF has dramatically improved it's capabilities during the last decade or so, doesn't mean that India should feel insecure specially in the possible presence of French Rafales plus massive fleet of Su 30s....presence of active strong Air forces on both sides will further enhance peace and and security in this region...there is nothing from which India should feel any sort of pressure i am afraid...!!


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## zebra7

Manindra said:


> Su-35 uses F117 engine, JF-17 uses RD 93 engine.
> 
> Well, all flanker operators use either Su-27 or 30 not only India.
> 
> Su-35 is mainly air superiority & have less Air to ground capability compared to Su-30s, so naval role option fell short in favour of Su-30 instead of 35.


Su35 comes from the Sukhoi family. What su35 makes different is the engine which have more TBO life than previous engines and Radar Which is derived from the bars family but it is Aesa and lot of work to lower down its frontal RCS which is speculated to be 1m square. It is more of strike aircraft rather that air superiority i.e for deep strike mission over long distance due to its large fuel capacity. It was made to counter primarily for the fifth gen fighter and other 4+ fighters of Europes including rafale, EF2000, F-18 on the one go. Russian strategy for the air to air fight is to fire more than one BVR for each targets thats why they needed the fighter plane with more armament and long range radar for the first detect and first fire capability.


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## zebra7

Viper0011. said:


> But sell SU-35's ONLY to Pakistan. Man, these Pakistani Manogies must have magic wand type taste and effect in it. When Modi gets those, he couldn't start a war even though he craves one. When Russians get those, the forget India and start talking about supplying the latest jets to Pakistan. MAN, even I want these Mangoes. May be I can send it to some people who need to give me a favor and I'll get huge ones


Janab what do you think of the comparison of Su35 and F-18 for the naval role which is better.


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## PakEye

noroker daroan said:


> is it possible to check indian commercial ships crossing arabian sea route by SU 35 alone ?



It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries but there will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded and other side the Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons of the PAF for the Su-35. 


Source: Analysis: Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Janab what do you think of the comparison of Su35 and F-18 for the naval role which is better.


depends on your pre concived range of engagements as F/A-18 is great and second to none if the required range is less than 500Km radius but if its more than 500Km then even russia is going for Mig-29Ks as is india as it gives 850Km fighting radius but Su-35 gives even more but is too heavy and i dont think there is a carrier based Su-35 opretional yet


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## Manindra

zebra7 said:


> Su35 comes from the Sukhoi family. What su35 makes different is the engine which have more TBO life than previous engines and Radar Which is derived from the bars family but it is Aesa and lot of work to lower down its frontal RCS which is speculated to be 1m square.


Engine is correct Radar is PESA but more powerful & RCS is speculated near 5m2 compared to 10 to 15 m2 of Su-30s
And its Single seater compared to other flankers.


> It is more of strike aircraft rather that air superiority i.e for deep strike mission over long distance due to its large fuel capacity.


Extra fuel does not gives you A2G capability, Radar & other sensors do. Its primary made for Air superiority role & excellent dogfighter with 3D TVC compared to 2D TVC of Su-30 MKI



> It was made to counter primarily for the fifth gen fighter and other 4+ fighters of Europes including rafale, EF2000, F-18 on the one go.


Fifth gen. no, other yes.


> Russian strategy for the air to air fight is to fire more than one BVR for each targets thats why they needed the fighter plane with more armament and long range radar for the first detect and first fire capability.


But this strategy is main negative point for Su-35, after success of other flanker series they designed a pure air superiority marvel in Multirole age (its poor in A2G role compared to Su-30 MKI which itself a not topnotch strike fighter for ground attack). And F117 engine also make the case worse as it can't be mounted on other flankers to make common in their upgrade.
So, Su-35 failed in weapon market due to economic & maintenance issue not performance.

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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> depends on your pre concived range of engagements as F/A-18 is great and second to none if the required range is less than 500Km radius but if its more than 500Km then even russia is going for Mig-29Ks as is india as it gives 850Km fighting radius but Su-35 gives even more but is too heavy and i dont think there is a carrier based Su-35 opretional yet


Are GuruDutt Janab Walekumassalam I was asking for our american pakistani who have a great deal of knowledge in americee taiyaree and he seems to have good understanding of Su35.


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Are GuruDutt Janab Walekumassalam I was asking for our american pakistani who have a great deal of knowledge in americee taiyaree and he seems to have good understanding of Su35.


leave every thing else just change your flags ... why are you so ashamed to use your orignal nations flags

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## aliyusuf

The following source states the RCS to be 0.5m2 and I don't claim it to be 100% authentic, but it seems closer to the estimate of 1 to 3m2 than this 5m2 claim. Unless I come across a source which specifically states the RCS is more than 3m2, I am more inclined to think it to be anywhere from 0.5 to 3m2. 

*Deagel : Su-35

Su-35 Specifications*
Crew: 1
External Stations: 12
Number of Engines: 2
Service Life Flight Hours: 6,000
*Area*
Radar Cross Section (RCS): 0.50 square meter (5,000 square cm)
*Dimensions*
Height: 5.90 meter (19.4 foot)
Length: 21.9 meter (72 foot)
Wingspan: 15.3 meter (50 foot)
*G-load*
Max Maneuvering Load Factor: 9 g
*Performance*
Ceiling: 19,000 meter (62,336 foot)
Ferry Range: 4,500 kilometer (2,430 nautical mile)
Max Range: 3,600 kilometer (1,944 nautical mile)
Max Range at Sea Level: 1,580 kilometer
*Speed*
Cruise Speed: 1.20 mach (398 mps)
Top Speed at High Altitude: 2,500 kph (2.09 mach)
Top Speed at Sea Level: 1,400 kph (1.17 mach)
*Time*
Service Life: 30 year
Time Between Overhaul: 10 year
*Weight*
Fuel Load: 11,500 kilogram (25,353 pound)
Max Takeoff Thrust: 29,000 kilogram (63,933 pound)
Max Takeoff Weight: 34,500 kilogram (76,058 pound)
Operational Weight: 25,300 kilogram (55,776 pound)
Payload: 8,000 kilogram (17,637 pound)
Main Gun Caliber: 30 millimeter
Gun Ammunition Load: 150


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## ACE OF THE AIR

TigerJay said:


> This is all that has been discussed by now. The numbers are already in the news, it will be more than or 2 SQD. Can go up to 50. PAF wants the Russians to mod them as per their needs along with the capability of using Chinese ammo.


The Su-35 are to replace the Mirages ?


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## zebra7

Manindra said:


> Engine is correct Radar is PESA but more powerful & RCS is speculated near 5m2 compared to 10 to 15 m2 of Su-30s
> And its Single seater compared to other flankers.


Lot of effort by the russian in the engine to increase the TBO life. RCS is low due to absence of canard since radar weight is less and RAM coating and speculated special technologies say Plasma shield. Radar is more powerful with 20watt of output and more processing power than Bars.



Manindra said:


> Extra fuel does not gives you A2G capability, Radar & other sensors do. Its primary made for Air superiority role & excellent dogfighter with 3D TVC compared to 2D TVC of Su-30 MKI



Yes but the enormous size of Russia makes it necessary for covering large distance. In Radar yes it will be the most powerful in wattage airborne radar but other factors are also there specially processing power and centric data management and sensors and jammers in which Russia might me lagging but the difference with the europeans (not including US) is not much. And by the way Su30MKI have 2.5D TVC because both the engine are fitted in different fashion.



Manindra said:


> Fifth gen. no, other yes.


Fith Generation Yes. Why Look if you have a capable ground radars capability which Russian have they can detect fifth Gen fighter. 5th Gen fighter does not means its invisible but indicates that its difficult to detect and su35 low RCS, Powerfull Radar, Passive sensons coupled with the satellite and long range BVR R77 P which gives the range of 200KM is meant for 5th gen and long range, high altitute, Reccee and Bombers which only US possess which Russia have to counter which is also the same case with the China.



Manindra said:


> But this strategy is main negative point for Su-35, after success of other flanker series they designed a pure air superiority marvel in Multirole age (its poor in A2G role compared to Su-30 MKI which itself a not topnotch strike fighter for ground attack). And F117 engine also make the case worse as it can't be mounted on other flankers to make common in their upgrade.
> So, Su-35 failed in weapon market due to economic & maintenance issue not performance.



Poor in A2G well it depends say if you want to drop LGB or unguided bomb using Su35 that that is purely the waste because that can be done with other 4th gen multirole fighter or ground attack fighter. But if you want to attack more hardened target like airbase or performing SEAD or DEAD mission than the air to ground cruise missile is the better choise provided the Radar is capable of SAR which can be easily implemented with a software implimentation and by the way your Su30MKI though have the capable radar BARS NP001 but it was only capable of A2A but was upgraded for SAR and ground mapping including GMITI with the upgradation of the software in its processing computer.

Su-35 won't find much market not because of its capability but because of its use which only Russia and China seems to qualify and to fully harness its capability specially its passive sensors coupled with the navigation Radars.



aliyusuf said:


> The following source states the RCS to be 0.5m2 and I don't claim it to be 100% authentic, but it seems closer to the estimate of 1 to 3m2 than this 5m2 claim. Unless I come across a source which specifically states the RCS is more than 3m2, I am more inclined to think it to be anywhere from 0.5 to 3m2.
> 
> *Deagel : Su-35
> 
> Su-35 Specifications*
> Crew: 1
> External Stations: 12
> Number of Engines: 2
> Service Life Flight Hours: 6,000
> *Area*
> Radar Cross Section (RCS): 0.50 square meter (5,000 square cm)
> *Dimensions*
> Height: 5.90 meter (19.4 foot)
> Length: 21.9 meter (72 foot)
> Wingspan: 15.3 meter (50 foot)
> *G-load*
> Max Maneuvering Load Factor: 9 g
> *Performance*
> Ceiling: 19,000 meter (62,336 foot)
> Ferry Range: 4,500 kilometer (2,430 nautical mile)
> Max Range: 3,600 kilometer (1,944 nautical mile)
> Max Range at Sea Level: 1,580 kilometer
> *Speed*
> Cruise Speed: 1.20 mach (398 mps)
> Top Speed at High Altitude: 2,500 kph (2.09 mach)
> Top Speed at Sea Level: 1,400 kph (1.17 mach)
> *Time*
> Service Life: 30 year
> Time Between Overhaul: 10 year
> *Weight*
> Fuel Load: 11,500 kilogram (25,353 pound)
> Max Takeoff Thrust: 29,000 kilogram (63,933 pound)
> Max Takeoff Weight: 34,500 kilogram (76,058 pound)
> Operational Weight: 25,300 kilogram (55,776 pound)
> Payload: 8,000 kilogram (17,637 pound)
> Main Gun Caliber: 30 millimeter
> Gun Ammunition Load: 150


Mere Bhai leave this because many of times all those specification is only the targeted specification which the designer intents to but does not fulfills.

And no OEM, Airforce, Pilot will reveal RCS values and if they do that is only the frontal RCS.


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> leave every thing else just change your flags ... why are you so ashamed to use your orignal nations flags


Janab dosto aur dushmano ko pechano aur bhavnao ko samjho aur bato mein dhyan na do


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## خره مينه لګته وي

*Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating what analysts believe can be potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, IHS Jane’s reported.*

“The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 ‘Flanker-E’ fighter jets from Russia but a final decision is yet to be announced,” the_IHS_ quoted a senior government official as saying.

Read: Talks on delivery of fighter jets, attack helicopters underway: Russian deputy FM

The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters to Pakistan.

“It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow’s longstanding ties with India.

“Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.

Pakistan currently relies on a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese manufactured F-7s and the JF-17 Thunder, which is co-manufactured by Pakistan and China.

Last month, Russia agreed to sell state-of-the-art Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan in what is seen as a ‘paradigm shift’ in Moscow’s policy to increase defence cooperation between the two countries.

“An agreement was signed between Pakistan and Russian authorities in Rawalpindi for the purchase of 4 Mi-35 helicopters,” a senior military official had said, not disclosing any further details.

Read: Paradigm shift: Russia agrees to sell Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan

Moscow for long ignored Islamabad in a bid to please its long-term ally New Delhi. But as a result of India’s growing tilt towards the US, Russia has now started expanding its cooperation with Pakistan.

For its part, Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington.


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Janab dosto aur dushmano ko pechano aur bhavnao ko samjho aur bato mein dhyan na do


challo ji apkee ye baat bhi maan lete hain


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> challo ji apkee ye baat bhi maan lete hain


Analysis: Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35? | Page 5

pechano


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## Manindra

zebra7 said:


> Lot of effort by the russian in the engine to increase the TBO life. RCS is low due to absence of canard since radar weight is less and RAM coating and speculated special technologies say Plasma shield. Radar is more powerful with 20watt of output and more processing power than Bars.


Yes, I am not denying that, only I disputed AESA statement and RCS is still nearly 5m2 as Engine blades are not hiding.





> Yes but the enormous size of Russia makes it necessary for covering large distance. In Radar yes it will be the most powerful in wattage airborne radar but other factors are also there specially processing power and centric data management and sensors and jammers in which Russia might me lagging but the difference with the europeans (not including US) is not much. And by the way Su30MKI have 2.5D TVC because both the engine are fitted in different fashion.


Yes, but not many ground mode added due to preference give to A2A mode more.




> Fith Generation Yes. Why Look if you have a capable ground radars capability which Russian have they can detect fifth Gen fighter. 5th Gen fighter does not means its invisible but indicates that its difficult to detect and su35 low RCS, Powerfull Radar, Passive sensons coupled with the satellite and long range BVR R77 P which gives the range of 200KM is meant for 5th gen and long range, high altitute, Reccee and Bombers which only US possess which Russia have to counter which is also the same case with the China.


When it have RCS of 5m2 then its not make difference against 5th generation fighters to check out.





> Poor in A2G well it depends say if you want to drop LGB or unguided bomb using Su35 that that is purely the waste because that can be done with other 4th gen multirole fighter or ground attack fighter. But if you want to attack more hardened target like airbase or performing SEAD or DEAD mission than the air to ground cruise missile is the better choise provided the Radar is capable of SAR which can be easily implemented with a software implimentation and by the way your Su30MKI though have the capable radar BARS NP001 but it was only capable of A2A but was upgraded for SAR and ground mapping including GMITI with the upgradation of the software in its processing computer.


And these mission can be accomplished by Su-30 MKI more easily compared to 35 as their RADAR is more optimized for ground attack.



> Su-35 won't find much market not because of its capability but because of its use which only Russia and China seems to qualify and to fully harness its capability specially its passive sensors coupled with the navigation Radars.


Su-35 can find market if their F117 engine could also fitted in other flankers in upgrade (as AL-31F have pathetic 1500 hrs engine life compared to 4000 of F117) but in reality it not .
So, it would be not economical for other flanker variant user to go for Su-35 which engine can't share with their other flankers, so maintenance nightmare.
Other reason is dedicated fighter in Multirole age put it in backfoot.

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Analysis: Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35? | Page 5
> 
> pechano


chal yaar jo bhi achha hai sannu ki


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## zebra7

Thats the claimed TBO life by the makers lets see in the future. And leave Aesa and Pesa both are actually same but only difference in the modules and could be upgraded. 

Nice talking to you.

Pakistan Jindabaad.
Allah Ho Akbar


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> chal yaar jo bhi achha hai sannu ki


Hun tussi pek shek pa rahe ho te assi ki kara........... Hayo rabbaa mein nach di firra

Guru bhai tussi to elite member ho gaye ho congratullation

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## aliyusuf

zebra7 said:


> ... Mere Bhai leave this because many of times all those specification is only the targeted specification which the designer intents to but does not fulfills ...



Deagel is not the designer ... its not even a Russian site. It is also quoting values that is not coming from any Russian sites. I know sometimes these values are estimates but when a site puts out certain information it is slightly more credible then the un-sourced figures being quoted in forums.

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## PakShaheen79

i think the need of SU-35 necessitates from the fact that recently, Pakistan extended its EEZ and Naval fleet at the furthermost point of EEZ would need air cover against perceived Indian Naval Aviation threat. Now, if SU-35 is more optimized for A2A engagements, it makes complete sense in maritime role which in this age is not limited to keep the enemy surface fleet away but keep enemy naval air wing in check. With IN inducting P-8I like ASW platforms, SU-35 becomes a natural choice for PAF/PN.

I don't konw if deal would be singed or not, but certainly the requirement for a long range, long endurance air-superiority fighter is there.

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## zebra7

aliyusuf said:


> Deagel is not the designer ... its not even a Russian site. It is also quoting values that is not coming from any Russian sites. I know sometimes these values are estimates but when a site puts out certain information it is slightly more credible then the un-sourced figures being quoted in forums.



Ok its your choice whom to believe and by the way lot of members including our seniors thinks that i have only peanut size brain in this forum.


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## aliyusuf

zebra7 said:


> Ok its your choice whom to believe and by the way lot of members including our seniors thinks that i have only peanut size brain in this forum.



Well I can't comment on that or the circumstances in which such a comment may have been made.
But as the saying goes ... its not the size but how you use it matters.
At least in this exchange, in my humble opinion, you certainly seem to have put it to its proper use and have not been off the mark.

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## Muhammad Omar

There are like many many threads now on Su-35... why not post in the previous rather then starting new one every time....


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## Peaceful Civilian

Knight Rider said:


> This is all part of the New Great Game being played in Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The New Great Game. Blood and Oil in Central Asia - by Lutz C. Kleveman


1. Russia want china to buy 45 su35s.They offered it to Pak, so that china get fast negotiations on this.
2. Russia want india to purchase Su35s.
3. We are showing interest in negotiations so that Uncle Sam offer us something which is difficult to deny. 
4. We are showing interest in negotiations so that china speedup it's j31s project according to PAF requirements


Conclusion :
We will not see front line fighters of Russia in PAF colors atleast in this decade. 
A.) Russia is new trade partner, and we can't trust Russia. 
B.) It will take time to reach trust and mutual interest regardless of its relation with our enemy. 
C.) In this decade, if we have to choose between U.S.A and Russia, then our choice will be U.S.A due to old relation and mutual understanding of many issues. Uncle Sam will not hesitate to provide us f18s and even F35 in future if we give them assurance that technology will not fall in China hands as we ensured them in F16 block 52+ case.

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## RealNapster

Fawad Mahsud said:


> *Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating what analysts believe can be potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, IHS Jane’s reported.*
> 
> “The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 ‘Flanker-E’ fighter jets from Russia but a final decision is yet to be announced,” the_IHS_ quoted a senior government official as saying.
> 
> Read: Talks on delivery of fighter jets, attack helicopters underway: Russian deputy FM
> 
> The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters to Pakistan.
> 
> “It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow’s longstanding ties with India.
> 
> “Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.
> 
> Pakistan currently relies on a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese manufactured F-7s and the JF-17 Thunder, which is co-manufactured by Pakistan and China.
> 
> Last month, Russia agreed to sell state-of-the-art Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan in what is seen as a ‘paradigm shift’ in Moscow’s policy to increase defence cooperation between the two countries.
> 
> “An agreement was signed between Pakistan and Russian authorities in Rawalpindi for the purchase of 4 Mi-35 helicopters,” a senior military official had said, not disclosing any further details.
> 
> Read: Paradigm shift: Russia agrees to sell Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan
> 
> Moscow for long ignored Islamabad in a bid to please its long-term ally New Delhi. But as a result of India’s growing tilt towards the US, Russia has now started expanding its cooperation with Pakistan.
> 
> For its part, Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington.



May be we get *2 squadron's of Su-35* in 5 years. but at this time we have *4 Squadrons of threads* on PDF, on "Pak buying Su-35" .. Just imagine, till the procurement of Su-35 we will have *200+ Squadrons of indigenous threads* on PDF about Su-35... Indian's must be Sooo jealous

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## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civilian said:


> 1. Russia want china to buy 36 su35s.They offered it to Pak, so that china get fast negotiations on this.
> 2. Russia want india to purchase Su35s.
> 3. We are showing interest in negotiations so that Uncle Sam offer us something which is difficult to deny.
> 4. We are showing interest in negotiations so that china speedup it's FC31 project according to PAF requirements
> 
> 
> Conclusion :
> We will not see front line fighters of Russia in PAF colors atleast in this decade.
> A.) Russia is new trade partner, and we can't trust Russia.
> B.) It will take time to reach trust and mutual interest regardless of its relation with our enemy.
> C.) In this decade, if we have to choose between U.S.A and Russia, then our choice will be U.S.A due to old relation and mutual understanding of many issues. Uncle Sam will not hesitate to provide us f18s and even F35 in future if we give them assurance that technology will not fall in China hands as we ensured them in F18 block 52+ case.


when did you had F-18s  and when did its Blk52 came 

jokes apart the fact is american experts are present 24X7X365 on those pakistani airbases ever since Blk-52s arrived in pakistan and before every sortie new source codes are loaded on Blk-52s by american experts onli ... try to check it

but the point is russia is doing this trolling so india buys the stuff it wants to sell to india (stealth frigates, T90MS, AMUR subs and russian transport aircrafts among others)

rest you can speculate yourself


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## Peaceful Civilian

GURU DUTT said:


> when did you had F-18s  and when did its Blk52 came


Typo mistake guru bhai. Edited now. And I want to see in PAF colors as soon as possible with AIM120D. 
lolzzzz

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## farhan_9909

khuda k liye ye news post krna band kr do warna hamare indian dost agar sadmay se nahin marr gye to suicide kr lengey


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## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Typo mistake guru bhai. Edited now. And I want to see in PAF colors as soon as possible with AIM120D.
> lolzzzz


well dont know will the yamricans will give you AIM120D after what happenned... khair jane do but point is India already has both versions of MICA,almost all versions of russian BVRs and now the I Derby ER(with tamir missile seeker ) while when rafale comes meteor will come and two versions of indian ASTRA BVR are already in testing phase with it i hope you know what i mean 

can any respected indian memeber like @MilSpec tell us what are the diffrent types of BVRs in indian innoventory .... thanks

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## Peaceful Civilian

farhan_9909 said:


> khuda k liye ye news post krna band kr do warna hamare indian dost agar sadmay se nahin marr gye to suicide kr lengey


They have sleepless night during su35 negotiations time.lol ..... While Imagine if we get 1 or 2 squardon of F35 from uncle sam. It will give us qualitative edge, and 2nd best stealth fighter in the world. Russia can't match U.S.A in air industry sector. Even U.S.A decades ahead in stealth technology, lol they just retired their f117s in 2008 when Russia and others were looking on drawing board. Don't even imagine operational clearance. .

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## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civilian said:


> They have sleepless night during su35 negotiations time.lol ..... While Imagine if we get 1 or 2 squardon of F35 from uncle sam. It will give us qualitative edge, and 2nd best stealth fighter in the world. Russia can't match U.S.A in air industry sector. Even U.S.A decades ahead in stealth technology, lol they just retired their f117s in 2008 when Russia and others were looking on drawing board. Don't even imagine operational clearance. .


so now you are changing the goal post to F-35 when you yourself know yamrican love for pakistan ... pehlewithout strings attached F-16 hi le lo sirji  

but F-35C is coming for for indian IAC-2 as USA will onli give EMALS, AAG and E-2D/E if we buy F-35C and im sure India wont mind having a couple of squads of F-35C either (i wonder what kind of weponarry will come with it )

good luck with su-35 sirji


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## Peaceful Civilian

GURU DUTT said:


> so now you are changing the goal post to F-35 when you yourself know yamrican love for pakistan ... pehlewithout strings attached F-16 hi le lo sirji
> 
> but F-35C is coming for for indian IAC-2 as USA will onli give EMALS, AAG and E-2D/E if we buy F-35C and im sure India wont mind having a couple of squads of F-35C either (i wonder what kind of weponarry will come with it )
> 
> good luck with su-35 sirji


Russian stuff is also expected string attached due to its relation with India. And it is more string attached & riskier than U.S.A.
Nahi Yar tu F35c na lay. Su35 ap hi rakho apny pass. F35 hamara. 
India don't like front line fighters of U.S.A due to strings attached and no TOT.
F35 ap bhool jao. Pak Fa & Rafale se guzara chalao aor Su35 khareed lo


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## [Bregs]

Arey bhai solve the Kashmir issue once for all on table and invest this money in development

Also *open visa for general public so that i too can eat tandoori chicken/fish  at Lahore food street and also go to enjoy majestic Baluchistan *

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## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Russian stuff is also expected string attached due to its relation with India. And it is more string attached & riskier than U.S.A.
> Nahi Yar tu F35c na lay. Su35 ap hi rakho apny pass. F35 hamara.
> India don't like front line fighters of U.S.A due to strings attached and no TOT.
> F35 ap bhool jao. Pak Fa & Rafale se guzara chalao aor Su35 khareed lo


what if i told you according to some sources in india will be having F-35s , Su-35s(super sukhoi MLU/AESA radar&avioniks+new engines) and rafales in IAF

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## Peaceful Civilian

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you according to some sources in india will be having F-35s , Su-35s(super sukhoi MLU/AESA rasar&avioniks+new engines) and rafales in IAF


I already told you F35 have less chance in india due to IAF doctrine. You Expect Pakfa confirm in your inventory .

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## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civilian said:


> I already told you F35 have less chance in india due to IAF doctrine. You Expect Pakfa confirm in your inventory .


abhi to khel bas shuru hi hua hai sirji picture to abhi baaki hai


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## ultron

Su-35 > Rafale. In terms of everything.


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## Peaceful Civilian

GURU DUTT said:


> abhi to khel bas shuru hi hua hai sirji picture to abhi baaki hai


Picture kia, video b Baki hai. Now, I am turning on VPN , because I, m boring now. Expecting something different , art and creativity in .... site
Don't disturb me .

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## Viper0011.

GURU DUTT said:


> so now you are changing the goal post to F-35 when you yourself know yamrican love for pakistan ... pehlewithout strings attached F-16 hi le lo sirji
> 
> but F-35C is coming for for indian IAC-2 as USA will onli give EMALS, AAG and E-2D/E if we buy F-35C and im sure India wont mind having a couple of squads of F-35C either (i wonder what kind of weponarry will come with it )
> 
> good luck with su-35 sirji



We are talking a DECADE before all this happens. Pakistan needs the next five years to get to a certain point, from that point, you'll see some serious defense acquitions on a much rapid pace. Pakistan is going to be a regional power to protect trade through its ports for many countries. And thus, would require a sizable Navy, Naval Air Arm and the Air Force.

By the way, I love how American understands India after the French experience. We gave you till September 30th on signing the contract to buy the Apache's and the Chinooks and told you post September 30th, the price will go back to full price (40% more) and the result is the contract is being drafted right now    . So thank you for giving us business. It took you guys SIX years to negotiate and finally buy!!! Initial negotiations on these heli's started back in 2009!!!! 

By the time India gets F-35's (if she will, I'll believe it when it happens, India doesn't want to put her strike force based on the US tech as they think long term when they might have to tell us to back off on certain things. I'd expect that to start happening in the next 10 years or so). But either way, if she does acquire F-35's, it'll be 7-10 decades. Plenty of time for Pakistan to come up with something. And you know it too.

LM will sell to Pakistan too. They had already identified Pakistan as a potential customer a year ago around 2022 time frame for the F-35.

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## GURU DUTT

Viper0011. said:


> We are talking a DECADE before all this happens. Pakistan needs the next five years to get to a certain point, from that point, you'll see some serious defense acquitions on a much rapid pace. Pakistan is going to be a regional power to protect trade through its ports for many countries. And thus, would require a sizable Navy, Naval Air Arm and the Air Force.
> 
> By the way, I love how American understands India after the French experience. We gave you till September 30th on signing the contract to buy the Apache's and the Chinooks and told you post September 30th, the price will go back to full price (40% more) and the result is the contract is being drafted right now    . So thank you for giving us business. It took you guys SIX years to negotiate and finally buy!!! Initial negotiations on these heli's started back in 2009!!!!
> 
> By the time India gets F-35's (if she will, I'll believe it when it happens, India doesn't want to put her strike force based on the US tech as they think long term when they might have to tell us to back off on certain things. I'd expect that to start happening in the next 10 years or so). But either way, if she does acquire F-35's, it'll be 7-10 decades. Plenty of time for Pakistan to come up with something. And you know it too.
> 
> LM will sell to Pakistan too. They had already identified Pakistan as a potential customer a year ago around 2022 time frame for the F-35.


ok ji fair enof but unlike past the rules have changed for india and for USA aswell and USA needs india more than it ever did in the past so USA is giving what we want from them and defence procurment system is currentlli in an overhaul phase in india with red tape bieng cut to size 

UPA Dragges all the defence purchases so to make a quick buck in the last stages of its rule but when the foriegn contractors realised they wont come back they themselfs witholded there contracts and then came NaMo led NDA which started renogiations in all such contracts and discarded/squashed a few (MRCA) and started a new policy to buy off the shelf and that too thru Goverment to Goverment channel 

in short indian defnce purchases are speeded up and a lot more goodies are coming to USA and France and Israel in perticular so sit back and enjoy the show


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## nadeemkhan110

GURU DUTT said:


> of realli
> 
> dont worry its just a trailor of things to come your way .... picture to abhi baaki hai mere dost


 I have already watch Uncut Movie Do you know The name of the movie
The name of movie is "TEEZ MAR INDIA "


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## GURU DUTT

nadeemkhan110 said:


> I have already watch Uncut Movie Do you know The name of the movie
> The name of movie is "TEEZ MAR INDIA "


dont worry nanhe miya masoom picture koi bhi banne happy ending me viliian hi marta hai aur aap achhe se jante ho indian movies me villian aksar kaun hota hai


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## TigerJay

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The Su-35 are to replace the Mirages ?


That I have no idea of, in my personal opinion Mirages will be phased out gradually and not immediately.


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Su35 comes from the Sukhoi family. What su35 makes different is the engine which have more TBO life than previous engines and Radar Which is derived from the bars family but it is Aesa and lot of work to lower down its frontal RCS which is speculated to be 1m square. It is more of strike aircraft rather that air superiority i.e for deep strike mission over long distance due to its large fuel capacity. It was made to counter primarily for the fifth gen fighter and other 4+ fighters of Europes including rafale, EF2000, F-18 on the one go. Russian strategy for the air to air fight is to fire more than one BVR for each targets thats why they needed the fighter plane with more armament and long range radar for the first detect and first fire capability.


Oh wow you just got the knowledge ?
& by your knowledge our $U35 wouldn't be stopping all the , Indian air inventory ?lolzz



zebra7 said:


> Ok its your choice whom to believe and by the way lot of members including our seniors thinks that i have only peanut size brain in this forum.


Sure.... But you only belive that India moodi jee & su- 30mki are sent by god & rest of others just garbage ?lolzz


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> but our Pakistan is having it
> 
> Thanks for the brief answer and yes you are right i have a brain of peanut size.
> 
> 1. Google what after Super Sukhoi upgrade which could easily be upgraded to Aesa Bars or Ibris-e radar and since the weight would be less so they probably remove the canards. Does Su35s does not comes from the Sukhoi 27 family and how many su35s is needed for 300 mki.
> 
> 2. Then why to fear sir for the sanction by US.
> 
> 3. I was asking for the numbers min required for the deterance and can paf have funds for that because russians might not give the soft loans.
> 
> 4. This question i asked for the help that chinese could give for our paf for chinese weapons to be loaded and in case russia ditched us for some reason. Chinese official during paris show of jf17 said that there is no official deal between russia and china for su35 and chinese surely interested in ibris-e aesa and its engine because they are lagging in that field with russia don't you think.
> 
> 5. Why ? Is it really possible that su35 could not be sold to india in future or su35 won't face j31 because both are for the exports and not necessorily it is meant for paf or plaaf. I was asking for the result because you know i have peanut size brain and you have coconut size thats why.
> 
> 
> Aur Janab i was doing tareef for the gadawar and you are giving me the troll tamga.
> 
> 1. does the proposed 40billion dollar spend by chinese don't have to paid back with interest.
> 2. don't you think russians or the chinese might be interested in chabar linking iran, afganistan, tajakistan, russia, china, and middle east.
> 
> 
> 
> Take tips from @zarwan


Yes our Pakistan is having it , jindabad ?moodi jee ?lolzz


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## batmannow

jaunty said:


> No one buys your lies, not even Pakistanis. You have become a joker around here. Keep amusing us.
> 
> Only Pakistanis who are too ashamed to admit their origin can relate to you. Others would actually despise you.


Looks like he made you mamoo ?lokzz


----------



## zebra7

batmannow said:


> Oh wow you just got the knowledge ?
> & by your knowledge our $U35 wouldn't be stopping all the , Indian air inventory ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Sure.... But you only belive that India moodi jee & su- 30mki are sent by god & rest of others just garbage ?lolzz


Janab yeh to aap ke hi jutti ka satka hai........

And i am not saying that su35 is not coming to pakistan and i am not saying that it will be countered sucessfuly. I am supporting you Janab why are you getting angry on me.

Allah hu Akbar.



aliyusuf said:


> Well I can't comment on that or the circumstances in which such a comment may have been made.
> But as the saying goes ... its not the size but how you use it matters.
> At least in this exchange, in my humble opinion, you certainly seem to have put it to its proper use and have not been off the mark.


Thanks Janaab thanks a lot for that opinion


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## nadeemkhan110

GURU DUTT said:


> dont worry nanhe miya masoom picture koi bhi banne happy ending me viliian hi marta hai aur aap achhe se jante ho indian movies me villian aksar kaun hota hai


main movie dekh chuka hun teez mar khan hi marta hai yar


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## illusion8

GURU DUTT said:


> first look which country has such dreams in the first place
> 
> rather they say russia will sell wepons to pakistan over indian reservations as india is in no position to loose russia (what they forget is ammount of russian jobs online if something of this type ever happens) but then since they think they have China as a friend who also happens to buy 40% of russian hardware like india russia will side by china and pakistan alliance forgeting pakistani equation with chechen rebels and ukrien and what india did for russia when russia needed it most




I would assume that a fighter deal follows a natural method of conclusion..requirement, trials, price negotiations and delivery schedules..I doubt anyone from paf have even been allowed to take a look inside a SU35 cockpit let alone handing a SU35 jet for trial runs to paf.


Some might claim that the whole process happened *"secretly" *which makes good fiction.

When a russian official mention deliveries of su35 - he most likely must have mentioned it in context to delivering it to china, usage of which could extend to protection of chinese investments inside pakistan.

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## nadeemkhan110

*Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating what analysts believe can be potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, IHS Jane’s reported.*
“The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 ‘Flanker-E’ fighter jets from Russia but a final decision is yet to be announced,” the _IHS_ quoted a senior government official as saying.
The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters to Pakistan.
*“It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow’s longstanding ties with India.*
“Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.
source:
Twin-engine fighter: Pakistan in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 jets - The Express Tribune

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## Asli Lahori1

illusion8 said:


> I would assume that a fighter deal follows a natural method of conclusion..requirement, trials, price negotiations and delivery schedules..I doubt anyone from paf have even been allowed to take a look inside a SU35 cockpit let alone handing a SU35 jet for trial runs to paf.
> 
> 
> Some might claim that the whole process happened *"secretly" *which makes good fiction.
> 
> When a russian official mention deliveries of su35 - he most likely must have mentioned it in context to delivering it to china, usage of which could extend to protection of chinese investments inside pakistan.


Unbelievable jealousy from Indians

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## illusion8

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Unbelievable jealousy from Indians




Simple and plain logic.


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## aks18

Great Sachin said:


> we already started buying from US and France....Dont forget all the SU30 parts are being manufactured in India...Russian will loose billion if they stop supplying other parts....
> 
> and why they will do all this for some *tiny deal with Pakistan*?




its not about tiny deals kid its about the strategical importance of pakistan for russian in future


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## zebra7

illusion8 said:


> I would assume that a fighter deal follows a natural method of conclusion..requirement, trials, price negotiations and delivery schedules..I doubt anyone from paf have even been allowed to take a look inside a SU35 cockpit let alone handing a SU35 jet for trial runs to paf.
> 
> 
> Some might claim that the whole process happened *"secretly" *which makes good fiction.
> 
> When a russian official mention deliveries of su35 - he most likely must have mentioned it in context to delivering it to china, usage of which could extend to protection of chinese investments inside pakistan.


Janaab any posibility of J31 going to India.







Don't you dare think of that because it has pakistan's copyright.



aks18 said:


> its not about tiny deals kid its about the strategical importance of pakistan for russian in future


Yes good these kids don't know anything about strategic moves


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## aks18

zebra7 said:


> Janaab any posibility of J31 going to India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you dare think of that because it has pakistan's copyright.
> 
> 
> Yes good these kids don't know anything about strategic moves




welcome to pdf kid i guess before one of your profile got killed by mods here


----------



## nadeemkhan110

zebra7 said:


> Janaab any posibility of J31 going to India.


 If You can Buy J-31


----------



## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Janab yeh to aap ke hi jutti ka satka hai........
> 
> And i am not saying that su35 is not coming to pakistan and i am not saying that it will be countered sucessfuly. I am supporting you Janab why are you getting angry on me.
> 
> Allah hu Akbar.
> 
> 
> Thanks Janaab thanks a lot for that opinion


Jindabad ! Lolzz


----------



## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Yes our Pakistan is having it , jindabad ?moodi jee ?lolzz



Sir, Mr.Modi will try his best to scuttle this deal when he and Putin meet later this year. Bet on it. Only then we would know where all this headed for sure.


----------



## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Janaab any posibility of J31 going to India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you dare think of that because it has pakistan's copyright.
> 
> 
> Yes good these kids don't know anything about strategic moves


Yes sure jindabad ?
Why not let's India try with China ?lolzz
Maybe they need your super Dooper Higher then Everest cash ?lolzz

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## Asli Lahori1

illusion8 said:


> Simple and plain logic.



I don't see logic. I see smoke coming out of Indian ***. Your logic is India will pull out of all the defense projects causing Russians great financial loss. What about Indian loss of Billions of $ money already spent on projects like FGFA etc? Indian has alot to loose too compare to Russia.

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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Sir, Mr.Modi will try his best to scuttle this deal when he and Putin meet later this year. Bet on it. Only then we would know where all this headed for sure.


I just only know that he can make best of tea cups ?lolzz


----------



## illusion8

Asli Lahori1 said:


> I don't see logic. I see smoke coming out of Indian ***. Your logic is India will pull out of all the defense projects causing Russians great financial loss. What about Indian loss of Billions of $ money already spent on projects like FGFA etc? Indian has alot to loose too compare to Russia.




??

Can you quote my post where I mentioned all that?

Geo politics and defense deals do not work like that,
But all this hoopla makes for fun reading. Someone even has inside sources who happen to know someone who has concluded or is on the verge of concluding the SU 35 deal.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Actually I have no interest in the Su-35. I see it as a no need, no brainier. You are only one whose post are so telling of anger and burn at this non starter of a deal that I can almost see the froth in your mouth.



@Oscar

Is it possible to post a thread lock on all the threads except one for the SU35 discussions? We know there are some talks happening, but we don't know if any deal has been reached yet. One thread everyday from some retarded Indian analyst

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## Asli Lahori1

illusion8 said:


> ??
> 
> Can you quote my post where I mentioned all that?
> 
> Geo politics and defense deals do not work like that,
> But all this hoopla makes for fun reading. Someone even has inside sources who happen to know someone who has concluded or is on the verge of concluding the SU 35 deal.



was talking in general Indian sentiment. Everything is in the press about this deal. Both sides confirmed the talks starting with Russian DFM. No one started a rumor. I haven't read anything about deal nearing conclusion.


----------



## nadeemkhan110

Asli Lahori1 said:


> was talking in general Indian sentiment. Everything is in the press about this deal. Both sides confirmed the talks starting with Russian DFM. No one started a rumor. I haven't read anything about deal nearing conclusion.


 Pakistan is willing to buy and Russia is willingness to sell
(JAB MIAN BIVI RAZI TO KYA KAREGA KAZI)

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## Asli Lahori1

Donatello said:


> @Oscar
> 
> Is it possible to post a thread lock on all the threads except one for the SU35 discussions? We know there are some talks happening, but we don't know if any deal has been reached yet. One thread everyday from some retarded Indian analyst



Yes put a ban on posting new threads.



nadeemkhan110 said:


> Pakistan is willing to buy and Russia is willingness to sell
> (JAB MIAN BIVI RAZI TO KYA KAREGA KAZI)



Problem is Endia is not Razi. LOL


----------



## ultron

India has no technology. Beggars cannot be choosers.


----------



## alee92nawaz

TigerJay said:


> This is all that has been discussed by now. The numbers are already in the news, it will be more than or 2 SQD. Can go up to 50. PAF wants the Russians to mod them as per their needs along with the capability of using Chinese ammo.


36 sukhoi sound reasonable..or can goto 40...
Pakistan was interested in. 36 j10bs...30-40 j-31


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## alee92nawaz

QUOTE

="batmannow, post: 7670048, member: 8052"]I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
Still Pakistan has many options ?


I think , & check the situation in our region most of the times & I think its going to happen very soon but yes best of luck in the end ?
Still Pakistan has many options ?[ QUOTE

]
many china copy flankers can be obtained...
And some countries may sell us some used f-15s...just a thought....

*Mod Edit:* Don't quote the trolls.


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## abdulbarijan

illusion8 said:


> I would assume that a fighter deal follows a natural method of conclusion..requirement, trials, price negotiations and delivery schedules..I doubt anyone from paf have even been allowed to take a look inside a SU35 cockpit let alone handing a SU35 jet for trial runs to paf.
> 
> 
> Some might claim that the whole process happened *"secretly" *which makes good fiction.
> 
> When a russian official mention deliveries of su35 - he most likely must have mentioned it in context to delivering it to china, usage of which could extend to protection of chinese investments inside pakistan.






illusion8 said:


> Simple and plain logic.



Ofcourse it is "logical" ... A concept of valid reasoning .. yet valid reasoning itself is based upon observation ... is it not ... meaning if you've only observed your own process of acquisitions .. which involves heavy publicity of ... "hey ... this is what we're getting ... get ready!!! .... " and every part of the acquisition is discussed and reported on the media ... these sort of negotiations would seem illogical to you ... add to that the fact that the Indian ego's have been quite hurt, when they found out that talks were underway for a jet that surpasses anything the IAF operates today ... and that too from a supplier which was considered an "all weather friend" ... this is why there have been like 4-5 different threads discussing different dimensions of what and what nots and have heavy duty Indian traffic, most of them trolling ... because they simply can't seem to accept whats happened ...

As for your point, Pakistani defense acquisitions do have the "out of no where" kind of stigma attached to them because as a smaller economy and someone who does not have strong diplomatic cast to lobby for us ... we have to be very careful not to have our deals spoiled ... recent examples include the JFT deal with the French ...

If you've actually followed the story .. you would be knowing that* Pakistani side never announced the talks ... it was Russia .. first it was an analyst saying that Pakistan was being considered as a potential buyer, and then regarding the negotiations, it was Russia's Deputy Foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov who confirmed that talks were underway regarding SU-35 to Pakistan ... The Pakistani side only confirmed it and that too after some days ...*

Lastly, regarding your little theory of


illusion8 said:


> _*When a russian official mention deliveries of su35 - he most likely must have mentioned it in context to delivering it to china, usage of which could extend to protection of chinese investments inside pakistan*_



Do you know the size of the PLAAF, the type of equipment they operate ... they can easily send a number of J-11D's or J-16's/15's etc. with the aim to protect their investments ... all of which easily equalize or even outmatch anything IAF fields today ...

But as per your *"logic"* --- Russia's deputy FM who was talking about relations with Pakistan, specifically about the weapons being delivered i.e MI-35 and then went on to talk about how talks were underway for SU-35 *was merely talking in context of delivery to China and extended usage rights in Pakistan* ... and then he went on as to how *he believed that India won't be jealous of such a deal*... and how *talks were only at an initial stage* ... after it was *already revealed by an analyst from the Russian side that Pakistan along with Brazil was being considered as a potential customer* ... and then a *Pakistani official according to Janes confirmed that talks were underway* .... 

*So, As per you -- they were all talking in the context of the 'extended use' theory of yours ...???*

Whether this deal goes through or not ... the reaction of the Indian friends is priceless to say the least ...

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## Asli Lahori1

MEAGAN FOXSS said:


> NAWAZ CAN SUCK MY DICK . . .



You mean Nawaz Shareef? He can suck mine too.


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## aliyusuf

Gentlemen, Lets keep it decent!


----------



## Asli Lahori1

aliyusuf said:


> Gentlemen, Lets keep it decent!



Sorry got carried away


----------



## Beast

Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?

Unfortunately my old thread was locked by moderator who I think I am BS.

My insider information in Chinese forum has claimed China acting as middleman to help PAF gets Su-35 for them but since now in 2015 where Russia no longer feel obliged to protect India interest plus India heavy dependent on Russia for many military projects. Russia now openly talk abt selling Su-35 directly to PAF, just like how RD-93 engines are directly sold to PAF without China acting as middleman for the JF-17.

It is logical step for PAF to acquire the heavy long range SU-35 who can do the deep penetration into India territories. But it will properly acquire in limted numbers like 48 of them since they are expensive to maintain.

Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 12

It shall also put a rest to China rumour of acquiring 24 Su-35 since China no longer need to buy for PAF. Very unfortunately, China is not allow to export any of its flanker series made in CHina like J-16 as we have a gentle agreement with Russia not to export any of them.

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## Echo_419

Beast said:


> Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?
> 
> Unfortunately my old thread was locked by moderator who I think I am BS.
> 
> My insider information in Chinese forum has claimed China acting as middleman to help PAF gets Su-35 for them but since now in 2015 where Russia no longer feel obliged to protect India interest plus India heavy dependent on Russia for many military projects. Russia now openly talk abt selling Su-35 directly to PAF, just like how RD-93 engines are directly sold to PAF without China acting as middleman for the JF-17.
> 
> It is logical step for PAF to acquire the heavy long range SU-35 who can do the deep penetration into India territories. But it will properly acquire in limted numbers like 48 of them since they are expensive to maintain.
> 
> Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 12
> 
> It shall also put a rest to China rumour of acquiring 24 Su-35 since China no longer need to buy for PAF. Very unfortunately, China is not allow to export any of its flanker series made in CHina like J-16 as we have a gentle agreement with Russia not to export any of them.



Let em induct the flankers 1st.Also it makes little financial sense for PK to induct flankers


----------



## illusion8

abdulbarijan said:


> Ofcourse it is "logical" ... A concept of valid reasoning .. yet valid reasoning itself is based upon observation ... is it not ... meaning if you've only observed your own process of acquisitions .. which involves heavy publicity of ... "hey ... this is what we're getting ... get ready!!! .... " and every part of the acquisition is discussed and reported on the media ... these sort of negotiations would seem illogical to you ... add to that the fact that the Indian ego's have been quite hurt, when they found out that talks were underway for a jet that surpasses anything the IAF operates today ... and that too from a supplier which was considered an "all weather friend" ... this is why there have been like 4-5 different threads discussing different dimensions of what and what nots and have heavy duty Indian traffic, most of them trolling ... because they simply can't seem to accept whats happened ...
> 
> As for your point, Pakistani defense acquisitions do have the "out of no where" kind of stigma attached to them because as a smaller economy and someone who does not have strong diplomatic cast to lobby for us ... we have to be very careful not to have our deals spoiled ... recent examples include the JFT deal with the French ...
> 
> If you've actually followed the story .. you would be knowing that* Pakistani side never announced the talks ... it was Russia .. first it was an analyst saying that Pakistan was being considered as a potential buyer, and then regarding the negotiations, it was Russia's Deputy Foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov who confirmed that talks were underway regarding SU-35 to Pakistan ... The Pakistani side only confirmed it and that too after some days ...*
> 
> Lastly, regarding your little theory of
> 
> 
> Do you know the size of the PLAAF, the type of equipment they operate ... they can easily send a number of J-11D's or J-16's/15's etc. with the aim to protect their investments ... all of which easily equalize or even outmatch anything IAF fields today ...
> 
> But as per your *"logic"* --- Russia's deputy FM who was talking about relations with Pakistan, specifically about the weapons being delivered i.e MI-35 and then went on to talk about how talks were underway for SU-35 *was merely talking in context of delivery to China and extended usage rights in Pakistan* ... and then he went on as to how *he believed that India won't be jealous of such a deal*... and how *talks were only at an initial stage* ... after it was *already revealed by an analyst from the Russian side that Pakistan along with Brazil was being considered as a potential customer* ... and then a *Pakistani official according to Janes confirmed that talks were underway* ....
> 
> *So, As per you -- they were all talking in the context of the 'extended use' theory of yours ...???*
> 
> Whether this deal goes through or not ... the reaction of the Indian friends is priceless to say the least ...



Lets keep terms like "jealousy" or "burning" out of it..we are grown ups here not a bunch of kids or emotional wreaks to have such emotions about something that we do not have any control over. 

If one digs deeper - Russia has offered other jets - for example - one can take this media outing.. Russia experts suggest to sell MiG-35 aircraft to Pakistan | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG as an offer. We folks can only make observations, which I tend to do based on the natural progressions of various changes that have happened over the years.

Russian deputy foreign minister when he talks of talks under way for delivery of SU35 - one can draw observations on the key word *"delivery"* which is a process that happens after various stages are completed in a deal. Again..when I said that a fighter deal goes through various stages before it comes down to the dealing parties talking about deliveries - the general global tendency is one assumes various processes having been completed, because that's how fighter tenders work everywhere else. Your take of it being something different in the case of Pakistan, as in out of nowhere is a valid point - though highly prone to doubt in this case.

If the discussion is about initial stage of talks then it can be understood. "delivery" talks which the russian spoke about takes it into a different level.

Based on the "delivery" term - as you say..my "little theory" and I clearly mention it as a theory is based on the on going talks of russians supplying the chinese su 35, talks of which have been on going and off going from the last several years. My little theory is based on those talks and russian claims of being very close to signing of the su 35 contract and delivery to the chinese ...which one has been reading fromthe last couple of years.

This is just my 4th or 5th post on this su35 saga all this while..I cannot be burdened with what other members have posted against other members.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> . Very unfortunately, China is not allow to export any of its flanker series made in CHina like J-16 as we have a gentle agreement with Russia not to export any of them.



You should self supply your flankers with domestic engines before export to any country.
I heard the production of domestic engines still very slow


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## Secret Service

Beast said:


> Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?
> 
> Unfortunately my old thread was locked by moderator who I think I am BS.
> 
> My insider information in Chinese forum has claimed China acting as middleman to help PAF gets Su-35 for them but since now in 2015 where Russia no longer feel obliged to protect India interest plus India heavy dependent on Russia for many military projects. Russia now openly talk abt selling Su-35 directly to PAF, just like how RD-93 engines are directly sold to PAF without China acting as middleman for the JF-17.
> 
> It is logical step for PAF to acquire the heavy long range SU-35 who can do the deep penetration into India territories. But it will properly acquire in limted numbers like 48 of them since they are expensive to maintain.
> 
> Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 12
> 
> It shall also put a rest to China rumour of acquiring 24 Su-35 since China no longer need to buy for PAF. Very unfortunately, China is not allow to export any of its flanker series made in CHina like J-16 as we have a gentle agreement with Russia not to export any of them.



i want to know more of these inside information ....

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## Beast

secretservice said:


> i want to know more of these inside information ....



J-10B will install WS-10B 14000kn thrust engine for supercruise. J-20 first squadron will also iinstall these new WS-10B until WS-15 is ready. Chinese WS-10 engines series will have longer lifespan, better quality than any Russian engines. Unfortunately, your dear Oscar moderator belittle me and think I am BS.

A person who continuously predict Su-35 will enter PAF service from 3 years ago more or less tells me my credibilites of my insiders information

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## Thunder Bolt

Real Deal Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters

*Pakistan is poised to upgrade it air force by purchasing what are arguably the best combat aircraft already in use - Russian Su-35 fighters, and here is why.*






Russia-Pakistan Mi-35 Contract Could be Expanded
A Pakistani government official spoke to IHS Jane's, confirming that the sides had already discussed a possible purchase of the advanced aircraft, as the Pakistani Air Force requires a two-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".


Currently the country's air force operates a fleet of US F-16s, French Mirage-5s, Chinese F-7s and Sino-Pakistani JF-17s.

Earlier, Moscow and Islamabad clinched a deal on the delivery of Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters to Pakistan, and the contract could be expanded. 

While the media are discussing the PAK FA, F-35 and J-20, the fifth-generation aircraft being tested in Russia, the US and China respectively, the fully operational Su-35 seems even more reliable for the moment. It has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology", rendering it superior to other fourth-generation fighters under development.




In fact, only the absence of stealth technology and an active electronically scanned array formally separates this plane, which is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds, from the family of fifth-generation jets.


The Su-35, NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is a multirole fighter that is capable of engaging several air targets simultaneously.

Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters

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## Secret Service

Beast said:


> J-10B will install WS-10B 14000kn thrust engine for supercruise. J-20 first squadron will also iinstall these new WS-10B until WS-15 is ready. Chinese WS-10 engines series will have longer lifespan, better quality than any Russian engines. Unfortunately, your dear Oscar moderator belittle me and think I am BS.
> 
> A person who continuously predict Su-35 will enter PAF service from 3 years ago more or less tells me my credibilites of my insiders information



he underestimates the Chinese intelligence...

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## RAMPAGE

Beast said:


> My insider information in Chinese forum has claimed China acting as middleman to help PAF gets Su-35 for them


You are spot on and I have suspected this for quite sometime.

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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> You should self supply your flankers with domestic engines before export to any country.
> I heard the production of domestic engines still very slow
> 
> 
> 
> You should self supply your flankers with domestic engines before export to any country.
> I heard the production of domestic engines still very slow



Another haters.. 






Look carefully at the serial number. They are operational fighter and not just prototype. All J-11BS and many J-11B are equipped with WS-10 engine, including the one intercepting the USN P-8

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## Pakistanisage

Beast said:


> J-10B will install WS-10B 14000kn thrust engine for supercruise. J-20 first squadron will also iinstall these new WS-10B until WS-15 is ready. Chinese WS-10 engines series will have longer lifespan, better quality than any Russian engines. Unfortunately, your dear Oscar moderator belittle me and think I am BS.
> 
> A person who continuously predict Su-35 will enter PAF service from 3 years ago more or less tells me my credibilites of my insiders information





You are the * " TRUE INSIDE INFORMATION BEAST ", *as far as I am concerned.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> Another haters..
> 
> View attachment 258829
> 
> 
> Look carefully at the serial number. They are operational fighter and not just prototype. All J-11BS and many J-11B are equipped with WS-10 engine, including the one intercepting the USN P-8



It's good to Replace all imported by your own domestic.
Why you call me hater?


----------



## Mughal-Prince

I am looking forward to see this deal done because if it happens then I need to ask someone to leave this forum  I have already marked his words.

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## SQ8

Beast said:


> J-10B will install WS-10B 14000kn thrust engine for supercruise. J-20 first squadron will also iinstall these new WS-10B until WS-15 is ready. Chinese WS-10 engines series will have longer lifespan, better quality than any Russian engines. Unfortunately, your dear Oscar moderator belittle me and think I am BS.
> 
> A person who continuously predict Su-35 will enter PAF service from 3 years ago more or less tells me my credibilites of my insiders information


Actually , I still think you are BS. 

Those rumours of the Su-35 have been floating around Chinese forums since 2012. We even discussed that possibility back then w.r.t to the RD-93 transfer that things with Russia were warming up . All you did was come and copy paste those here in an attempt to look important and intelligent. So, if you wish to claim that your copy paste is good... I can give you that.

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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> It's good to Replace all imported by your own domestic.
> Why you call me hater?


Becos you make a lot of nonsense post just like the one above. Taihang engine on J-11BS, does that makes you eat back your words? 



Oscar said:


> Actually , I still think you are BS.
> 
> Those rumours of the Su-35 have been floating around Chinese forums since 2012. We even discussed that possibility back then w.r.t to the RD-93 transfer that things with Russia were warming up . All you did was come and copy paste those here in an attempt to look important and intelligent. So, if you wish to claim that your copy paste is good... I can give you that.


Haters will always be haters. My correct prediction of su-35 deal for PAF three years ago more or less speaks something. I am not forcing you to believe my insider info.

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## SQ8

Beast said:


> Haters will always be haters. My correct prediction of su-35 deal for PAF three years ago more or less speaks something. I am not forcing you to believe my insider info.


That I appreciate, whether I agree with you or not; you should be man enough to agree to disagree and accept that not everyone will believe what you say.


----------



## That Guy

jaibi said:


> Refrain from foul language


Fine. I apologize. In my defense, it angers me when people say blatantly uninformed opinion, and present them as facts.

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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> That I appreciate, whether I agree with you or not; you should be man enough to agree to disagree and accept that not everyone will believe what you say.


Look at at this way, PAF felt the need for heavy/long range fighter, was maybe impressed with Chinese SU 27 derivatives and showed interest in procuring them. The Chinese told them that they weren't clear for export due to the Russian factor and pointed at SU 35s and agreed to facilitate an agreement between Russia and Pakistan.

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## Secret Service

Thunder Bolt said:


> Real Deal Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters
> 
> *Pakistan is poised to upgrade it air force by purchasing what are arguably the best combat aircraft already in use - Russian Su-35 fighters, and here is why.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia-Pakistan Mi-35 Contract Could be Expanded
> A Pakistani government official spoke to IHS Jane's, confirming that the sides had already discussed a possible purchase of the advanced aircraft, as the Pakistani Air Force requires a two-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".
> 
> 
> Currently the country's air force operates a fleet of US F-16s, French Mirage-5s, Chinese F-7s and Sino-Pakistani JF-17s.
> 
> Earlier, Moscow and Islamabad clinched a deal on the delivery of Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters to Pakistan, and the contract could be expanded.
> 
> While the media are discussing the PAK FA, F-35 and J-20, the fifth-generation aircraft being tested in Russia, the US and China respectively, the fully operational Su-35 seems even more reliable for the moment. It has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology", rendering it superior to other fourth-generation fighters under development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, only the absence of stealth technology and an active electronically scanned array formally separates this plane, which is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds, from the family of fifth-generation jets.
> 
> 
> The Su-35, NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is a multirole fighter that is capable of engaging several air targets simultaneously.
> 
> Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters




(Pakistan) Russia’s New Game Plan – Analysis


----------



## That Guy

batmannow said:


> Sure Jane's will be wrong , Russian FDM will be wrong , & the whole world will be wrong ?
> Only you are the one who is always right ?
> If there are talks that means bussines in process ?
> No ?
> No one has said that any deal has been signed yet but , on the basses of the on going talks its be highly predicted that , it will happen ?
> So ,just accept the fact because that's the fact is ,instead of being foolishly stubborn & telling whole world is wrong & you the dynamite genius the waiting Jesus is right ?


Do you not read other people's comments, before replying? Seriously?



> Kindly name few of these so called analysts ,I can bet you most of them are Indians ?


I don't know, is @Oscar an Indian?

I'm done here.


----------



## mkg00179504

GURU DUTT said:


> when did you had F-18s  and when did its Blk52 came
> 
> jokes apart the fact is american experts are present 24X7X365 on those pakistani airbases ever since Blk-52s arrived in pakistan and *before every sortie new source codes are loaded on Blk-52s by american experts onli .*.. try to check it
> 
> but the point is russia is doing this trolling so india buys the stuff it wants to sell to india (stealth frigates, T90MS, AMUR subs and russian transport aircrafts among others)
> 
> rest you can speculate yourself



You should provide a credible source for the above highlighted part, since you mention it about 10 times a day in every PAF thread. Or else I ll request Mods to take action against you. Again provide a credible source not your favorite Wiki. Provide a source which particularly mention that US techs are putting in the codes in F 16. Not maintenance related issues.


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## somebozo

Pakistani pilots have been training on Chinese and Malaysian SU30 since 2012 as well..

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## HAIDER

Origin Russia
Type Multirole fighter
Max Speed 1,490 mph/2,390 km/h
Max Range 1,940 miles/3,600 km
Dimensions Span 50.2 ft/15.3 m Length 72.9 ft/21.9 m Height 19.4 ft/5.90 m
Weight Max takeoff 76,060 lb/34,500 kg
Powerplant 2 × Saturn 117S with TVC nozzle turbofan, 31,900 lbf/14,500 kgf each
Armament 1 × 30 mm GSh-30 internal cannon with 150 rounds, 12 × wing and fuselage stations for up to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance, including for a variety of ordnance including air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, rockets, and bombs
Operators:
China (Signing contract for 48 Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E), Russia, Venezuela (24 ordered)

Aircraft Overview:
Although fifth generation fighters offer benefits such as advanced technology and stealth characteristics, they have their drawbacks. Huge costs and constant maintenance are required to keep 5th generation fighters operating to their potential. Because of these resasons, 4.5th generation fighters such as the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen have become increasingly popular. Offering performance on par with 5th generation fighters, minus certain extravagant technologies such as stealth, the 4.5th generation fighter serves as an effective interim aircraft until an air force can afford the money or resources to purchase more luxurious types. Sukhoi's Su-35 Super Flanker (NATO designation "Flanker E") took the world market by storm when it proved able to challenge and defeat any aircraft in the East (and West) except for absolute top-of-the-line fighters such as the EF2000 and F-22. The direct derivative of the Super Flanker, aptly designated the Sukhoi Su-37 Terminator, was only intended as a technology demonstrator but is one of the most manoeuvrable aircraft ever built.

When the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker was first unveiled, it was the most potent fighter in the world, even outperforming McDonnell Douglas's successful F-15 Eagle. However, the aging design inspired a number of increasingly high performance variants intended to modernise the type. In an attempt to create an "interim" fighter to replace the outdated aircraft of air forces not politically/financially able to buy more advanced aircraft, a basic Su-27 airframe was enlarged and designated the Su-27M. Modernised engines, powerful avionics equipment (including a long-range Phazotron interception radar) and advanced weapons options were all added to the jet, and the modified aircraft flew in 1988. The first true prototype was designated the Su-35-1 901 and flew ten years later, and the test flight was fairly uneventful. The second and third prototypes were also great successes, and demonstrated the weapons and performance capabilities of the craft, but the fourth was unfortunately destroyed in a ground fire while taxiing and the pilot escaped unscathed.

Although the Su-35 was intended almost purely for the world market, Russia expressed interest and ordered 48 Su-35Ss to supplement current fighters. The most advanced fighters in Russian service, the Super Flankers offered considerable advantages over the Su-27. Although comparable to the older Su-27 design in terms of speed, the Su-35 offers a decent range exceeding 4000 Kms as a standard feature. The Su-27's Zhuk radar added "look-down, shoot-down" capabilities, which allowed it to lock-on to aircraft flying far below instead of having to descend or point the plane itself towards the intended target. The Su-35 Super Flankers "Irbis E" phased-array radar is even more advanced, with a range of 400km and the ability to track 30 targets at a time.

Although several models have been designed, the current definitive variant of the "Flanker-E" is the Su-35S single-seat multi-role fighter in service with Russia, albeit in small numbers. The "heart" of the Su-35's technological capabilities is its "Irbis-E" phased-array radar. _In addition to allowing the Su-35 to change from a fighter to a bomber at the touch of a button, the "Irbis-E" is also able to detect low-profile ground targets_, unconventional (such as stealthy models or cruise missiles) or unmanned aircraft, and an advanced Doppler system. Basic defensive armament is comprised of a formidable GsH-30 cannon with 150 rounds of 30mm ammunition at its disposal, and although mainly intended for air targets can be used to an extent against ground units as well. The Su-35S's advanced target designating systems allow the GsH-30 a level of accuracy not found on previous generations of aircraft, and keeps it in the same league as other 4.5th Generation fighters. For short range air-to-air combat or defence, AA-11 "Archer" ASRAAMs (Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile) are stored on 12 underwing pylons. Up to 8000 Kg of weaponry/ordnance can be equipped, including AA-12 Adder AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles). The Su-35S's weapons give it a range of 300-400 Km, allowing fighters to be fired on shortly after they appear on the Super Flanker's radar. Rockets and dumb bombs can be carried, but guided and smart munitions primarily compose the "Flanker-E's" Air-to-Ground (AG) suite. Kh-29, Kh-31, and Kh-59 missiles are an option, but the Su-35S can be modified to equip a variety of international munitions as well.

A large wingspan, curved belly, and fly-by-wire system allow the Su-35S a high level of agility in air combat, although it lacks the canards of the Su-30MKI, Su-34, and Su-37. However, an STOL (Short Take-Off/Landing) capability was not a top priority for the Su-35S, nor was the need to rapidly cut speed. In fact, during simulations in which the "Flanker-E" was pitted against contemporary American fighters such as the F-15C Eagle, the Su-35S almost always won the battle by locating enemy fighters before coming within range of their radar, and then destroying them with a long-ranged missile. The Su-35 owes its airframe strength and endurance to an extensive use of titanium alloys in the airframe. A braced-glass canopy offers the pilot(s) (in the case of the Su-35UB two-seater) excellent all-round visibility. Zero-zero KD-36DM ejection seats positioned in the cockpit as well as HUDs, television screens, and ergonomic controls. Also, Dual Saturn 117S AL-41FA engines putting out 86.3 Kn each allow for a top speed of 2,390 KmH. Although the Super Flanker has a maximum range of 3,600 km on internal fuel, a forward-mounted probe allows for air-to-air refuelling.

Unofficially designated the Su-35BM, the base model received the Su-35S designation in Russian service and export models received the Su-35K designation. The two designs are both single seat heavy interceptors, with minor modifications according to customer request. A two-seat strike/trainer model, the Su-35UB, also exists with an extended tandem cockpit and a variety of primarily AG weapons, but has yet to receive orders. The Su-35BM/S design was further developed into the Su-37 Terminator technology demonstrator. Thrust vectoring, canard foreplanes, and HOTAS controls were all incorporated into the design, which was never ordered into production. After it was completed and tested, Sukhoi claimed the aircraft boasted a level of performance and technology beyond that of any non-fifth generation fighter.
--------------------------------------------------------
A comment :
_" Yes, the Super-Sukhoi or Su-35 is very much serious initiative. A Su-30 follow-on with AESA radar, better EW, and latest weapons._
_This plane is different from Su-30MKI. The planes will be absolutely new. And yes, it can be a Rafale killer. "_
"

SU 35 E , latest GSH301 cannon.












Love TVC












Irbis-E

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## nik22

The @Beast , I would love to know your next prediction.


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> Look at at this way, PAF felt the need for heavy/long range fighter, was maybe impressed with Chinese SU 27 derivatives and showed interest in procuring them. The Chinese told them that they weren't clear for export due to the Russian factor and pointed at SU 35s and agreed to facilitate an agreement between Russia and Pakistan.


The Chinese did not have to tell us anything. The issue was not that the J-11 or otherwise was clear for export; it was the Al-31 engine and the lack of any suitable Chinese alternative engine. However, as relations improved between Pakistan and Russia.. the possibility of getting engine support has improved as well. The Russians might have insisted however that they wont clear the Al-31 for export to Pakistan but might sell it off as a total package to Pakistan. A smart way to make money but at the same time, China has no need to be a middle man anymore.

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## Sulman Badshah

somebozo said:


> Pakistani pilots have been training on Chinese and Malaysian SU30 since 2012 as well..


That's Su27


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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> The Chinese did not have to tell us anything. The issue was not that the J-11 or otherwise was clear for export; it was the Al-31 engine and the lack of any suitable Chinese alternative engine. However, as relations improved between Pakistan and Russia.. the possibility of getting engine support has improved as well. The Russians might have insisted however that they wont clear the Al-31 for export to Pakistan but might sell it off as a total package to Pakistan. A smart way to make money but at the same time, China has no need to be a middle man anymore.


Chinese are flying their J-11s with their own engine.


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> Chinese are flying their J-11s with their own engine.


That they are, but at what performance capability? What lifespan of the engines? What MTBO? 
In other words, there are no figures available to show whether they last worse, same or longer than Russian engines.

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## Cash GK

A country had
dream to reach through warm waters. for that she had payed heavy price and even broken into pieces. if she can fullfill its dream to give away some jets. I belive it will be great business. it will be great shift in world power. as I see europ almost blocked the trade ways for russia and nato getting strong. russia going to have safe trade through china and pakistan. what money they going to have through warm wathers. it will b much more then what india trade with russia and end of the day india will want to get into this mighty project. As per my idea 75 persent world business will be get through pakistani land or waters. and no country can win wars or can do trade if it doesnt have strong navy and army. china russia will do every thing to protect their bussines intrests and giveing away some jets and subs not a bad price.hope you guys will understand what my point is...

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## Muhammad Omar

Hoping your prediction becomes reality....


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## Muhammad Omar

This jet is just wow

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## VelocuR

sounds very interesting


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## VelocuR

Cockpit and seats doesn't seem advanced? same standard from previous Su-family jets?

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## nadeemkhan110

somebozo said:


> Pakistani pilots have been training on Chinese and Malaysian SU30 since 2012 as well..


So PAKISTANI PILOTS already trained with dual engine JETS
this is great

BUT I Think Pakistan need more then 48 su-35 like plus 60 because its a JET WITH 5h generation TECH.


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## soundwave1987

I think SU-35 may not come to China eventually. Untill now no contract signed yet as the J-11D settled with 14t thrust WS-10 engine & AESA and next generation engine WS-15 will take its maiden flight at the end of this year or beginning of next year, so the chance for PLAAF to get SU-35 is getting smaller and smaller. But it would be very nice to see PAF go for SU-35 as a real piece of art embodied both beauty and technology it is.
By the way another news I read from CASIC(中国航天科工) official Wechat account, new turbofan engine with thrust-weight ratio of 8-9(chinese standard, slight stricter than US standard) for JF-17（blk 3 maybe?) is about to finish all test flights, wish we can see new JF-17 with new engine soon.

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## dev_moh

according to me,
If Pakistan buys Sukhoi 35, it will be beneficial for India.
Probability of war between India and Pakistan is really low, as long as there is Civilian rule in Pakistan.
Now, Russian equipment is actually cheaper to buy, but very expensive to maintain.
And pakistan would have to actually pay to Russia, in one form or another.
So, although the SU35 will give PAF the required edge, but at the same time, it will also suck up the already tight defence budget of Pakistan.
If PAF commits to SU35s, Pakistan Military as a whole will have to cut corners.

Not only this, The IAF is very much familiar to the flankers.
yes, SU35 is much advanced than SU 30mki.
But, It still is a flanker.
Being the largest operator of the flankers IAF is very much familiar to the planes overall.
yes the advantage is there for PAF, but it will not be a gamechanger.
...Just my take.


@MastanKhan


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## monitor

its not yet confirm Pakistan will buy the flanker just negotiations are taking place and a thread .at last Pakistan is in love with flanker.

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## Salza

@ Beast 

You 'd the man


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## RAMPAGE

monitor said:


> its not yet confirm Pakistan will buy the flanker just negotiations are taking place and a thread .at last Pakistan is in love with flanker.


What's with the fascination with Pakistan?


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## S.U.R.B.

Taking interest in a machine does not always equal to buying it.Yes, another door has opened for the PAF as we have seen some improvements in our relations with Russia on the diplomatic front.And now we can consider about evaluating/ buying something that we could not few years ago.But still it's very fluid.

Irbis E has got some impressive stats.It's also said that export version will have an option for the customers to integrate weapons from different sources.The jet has got a good reach : no question about it.

A fighter jet belonging to the 4.5 generation category like this one ,if inducted will automatically give us the time to ponder and wait for any available 5th generation AC to get mature before we commit to buy it.

======
Forgive me for this dry post.
Enjoy these recent maneuvers from the MAKS 2015 airshow.

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## VelocuR

*Twin-engine fighter: Pakistan in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 jets*

September 20, 2015







Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating what analysts believe can be potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, _IHS Jane’s_ reported.

*“The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 ‘Flanker-E’ fighter jets from Russia but a final decision is yet to be announced,” theIHS quoted a senior government official as saying.*

Read: Talks on delivery of fighter jets, attack helicopters underway: Russian deputy FM

The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters to Pakistan.

“It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow’s longstanding ties with India.

*“Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.*

Pakistan currently relies on a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese manufactured F-7s and the JF-17 Thunder, which is co-manufactured by Pakistan and China.

*Last month, Russia agreed to sell state-of-the-art Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan in what is seen as a ‘paradigm shift’ in Moscow’s policy to increase defence cooperation between the two countries.*

“An agreement was signed between Pakistan and Russian authorities in Rawalpindi for the purchase of 4 Mi-35 helicopters,” a senior military official had said, not disclosing any further details.

Read: Paradigm shift: Russia agrees to sell Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan

Moscow for long ignored Islamabad in a bid to please its long-term ally New Delhi. But as a result of India’s growing tilt towards the US, Russia has now started expanding its cooperation with Pakistan.

For its part, Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington.

_This article originally appeared on IHS Jane’s_.

Twin-engine fighter: Pakistan in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 jets - The Express Tribune

More great news.......

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## mingle

Su series is fantastic


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## Super Falcon

I still bellieve it is made for PAF 

PAF SHOULD GO FOR SU 35 but tech which SU 37 HAS canards etc should be included

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## VelocuR

Anees said:


> But From where the money will come ?? IMF or US AID again???



Please don't ask this stupid question. 

We've already answer this same focking questions over 2,000 times, can you check previous threads to revise old arguments?

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## RazorMC

How many threads, how many discussions must we endure on the same topic?

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## SHAMK9

Anees said:


> But From where the money will come ?? IMF or US AID again???


Not from your bank account so dont worry bharti

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## Khanivore

soundwave1987 said:


> By the way another news I read from CASIC(中国航天科工) official Wechat account, new turbofan engine with thrust-weight ratio of 8-9(chinese standard, slight stricter than US standard) for JF-17（blk 3 maybe?) is about to finish all test flights, wish we can see new JF-17 with new engine soon.


Wow! Fascinating news about the new engine. It's amazing to see how fast the Chinese engineers are working. Truly astonishing and admirable progress.


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## Blue Marlin

@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @waz @Jungibaaz @Jango 
can you please create a sticky thread and merge all su-35 related threads in to it as the air force section is becoming saturated in the su-35 
heres a good thread name
" SU-35 New's Updates & Discussions "

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## VelocuR

Sputnik News

*Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters*

September 20 , 2015







Pakistan is poised to upgrade its air force by purchasing what are arguably the best combat aircraft already in use - Russian Su-35 fighters, and here is why.

A Pakistani government official spoke to IHS Jane's, confirming that the sides had already discussed a possible purchase of the advanced aircraft, as the Pakistani Air Force requires a two-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".


Currently the country's air force operates a fleet of US F-16s, French Mirage-5s, Chinese F-7s and Sino-Pakistani JF-17s.

*Earlier, Moscow and Islamabad clinched a deal on the delivery of Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters to Pakistan, and the contract could be expanded. *

While the media are discussing the PAK FA, F-35 and J-20, the fifth-generation aircraft being tested in Russia, the US and China respectively, the fully operational Su-35 seems even more reliable for the moment. It has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology", rendering it superior to other fourth-generation fighters under development.


In fact, only the absence of stealth technology and an active electronically scanned array formally separates this plane, which is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds, from the family of fifth-generation jets.


The Su-35, NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is a multirole fighter that is capable of engaging several air targets simultaneously.







Read more: Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters

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## abdulbarijan

illusion8 said:


> Lets keep terms like "jealousy" or "burning" out of it..we are grown ups here not a bunch of kids or emotional wreaks to have such emotions about something that we do not have any control over.
> 
> If one digs deeper - Russia has offered other jets - for example - one can take this media outing.. Russia experts suggest to sell MiG-35 aircraft to Pakistan | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG as an offer. We folks can only make observations, which I tend to do based on the natural progressions of various changes that have happened over the years.



-I did not use the term 'jealousy" .. not at all ... it was Russia's deputy Foreign minister who did so ...



> "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause* jealousy *on the part of any of the two sides," Ryabkov told journalists.
> Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India



-Secondly, for someone who goes in to such detail over a single word ... I believe you forgot to read the part where the Mig-35 "offer" wasn't really an offer but more of a suggestion for Russian administration, when India did not shortlist the Mig-35 for the MMRCA deal ... Hence the quote of Russia's strategy and technical analysis center assistant director at the time being along the lines of ...

"Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy."



illusion8 said:


> Russian deputy foreign minister when he talks of talks under way for delivery of SU35 - one can draw observations on the key word *"delivery"* which is a process that happens after various stages are completed in a deal. Again..when I said that a fighter deal goes through various stages before it comes down to the dealing parties talking about deliveries - the general global tendency is one assumes various processes having been completed, because that's how fighter tenders work everywhere else. Your take of it being something different in the case of Pakistan, as in out of nowhere is a valid point - though highly prone to doubt in this case.
> 
> If the discussion is about initial stage of talks then it can be understood. "delivery" talks which the russian spoke about takes it into a different level.
> 
> Based on the "delivery" term - as you say..my "little theory" and I clearly mention it as a theory is based on the on going talks of russians supplying the chinese su 35, talks of which have been on going and off going from the last several years. My little theory is based on those talks and russian claims of being very close to signing of the su 35 contract and delivery to the chinese ...which one has been reading fromthe last couple of years.
> 
> This is just my 4th or 5th post on this su35 saga all this while..I cannot be burdened with what other members have posted against other members.



- I said that this was a 'theory' in jest ... If I were to seriously consider it ... I think I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking or at best a very weak hypothesis... and let me tell you why ...

Your "theory" is based on the presumptions that;

"talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets." -- are the Deputy FM's exact words .. 

This is so out of the blue, chances are PAF pilots haven't even gotten in a cockpit of a Super Flanker ... which means that the whole process of requirement,trials, analysis price ... etc. has not taken place ... which is necessary for a delivery .. 

The dealings of SU-35 with China ...

hence ... this must mean ... SU-35 only being delivered to PLAAF but can be used to protect investments in Pakistan ...
*and this so called 'theory' can be simply dismissed based on two factors ... *

*-Ilya Karmik specifically mentioning Pakistan as a "potential customer" ... Remember this is also Sputnik the same defensenews outlet that reported the Russian Deputy FM's story and this piece was published back in August of 2015.*



> *Other potential buyers include Pakistan *and Brazil, with Kramnik also referring to figures from manufacturer Polet, which makes parts for the Su-35, showing increased production of its onboard system in order to fulfil orders for a total of 60 aircraft from Vietnam, Venezuela and Indonesia.
> 
> Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar



-*The confirmation from the Pakistani side .. although not an exact quote but is reported something like this .. notice the choice of words ... *


> A Pakistani government official spoke to IHS Jane's, confirming that the sides had already discussed *a possible purchase of the advanced aircraft*
> 
> Read more: Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters



*Bottom line ... Ilya Kramik is calling Pakistan a potential "buyer" ... Pakistani officials are talking about a "Purchase" -- yet your basing your idea on the choice of words that weren't even exact quotes ...*

I think this is enough to prove how illogical this idea is ... but lets put an end to this idea once and for all ... by exploring other problems with your theory ...

- Why is it that PLAAF wants to operate ONLY SU-35 in Pakistan to protect its interest ... after all PLAAF has assets from its own industry like say J-11B, J-16/15 are enough to deter any sort of threat ...

- How do you presume that PAF never had access to the SU-35 ... the Mig-35 "suggestion" was in mid 2011 ... in 2012 there were rumors on Chinese forums and even on here that PAF was considering SU-35's ... and this was right after India screwed the Russians out of the MMRCA ... so who is to say Pakistan never had any access to the Super flanker ...

The deal goes through or not is another discussion, but like I said I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking because it simply has too much flaws and is based on coincidences ...

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## somebozo

Forget SU35...we should go for this super maneuverable stealth beauty piece..It fits well with PAF doctrine of using extreme maneuverability to advantage in defeating enemy defenses..


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## Super Falcon

Talks means bussines we dont talk .mother of all deals slogan become mother of all orphens

So plz all indian people have same prospective about pak which is tottaly wrong that we are poor nation our woman wear burkas etc

And ur prospective wont change reality but it benefits us

Y


somebozo said:


> Forget SU35...we should go for this super maneuverable stealth beauty piece..It fits well with PAF doctrine of using extreme maneuverability to advantage in defeating enemy defenses..


this berkut was for tech demo nothing more RAF never ordered it so plz dont piss off

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## Khanivore

somebozo said:


> Forget SU35...we should go for this super maneuverable stealth beauty piece..It fits well with PAF doctrine of using extreme maneuverability to advantage in defeating enemy defenses..


Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this prototype was just a technology demonstrator.


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## Dalit

RazorMC said:


> How many threads, how many discussions must we endure on the same topic?



Endure! Endure as much as you can LMAO there is so much more that you are going to have to endure. This is only beginning...


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## SQ8

S.U.R.B. said:


> Enjoy these recent maneuvers from the MAKS 2015 airshow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]



If this was being done in a many vs many fight(as it is usually), that is a great target for any wingman or other aircraft to blow out of the sky. 

The Su-35 needs to switch over to the same FLCS setup as the F-22. TVC ONLY when needed.

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## VelocuR

somebozo said:


> Forget SU35...we should go for this super maneuverable stealth beauty piece..It fits well with PAF doctrine of using extreme maneuverability to advantage in defeating enemy defenses..



Russia has only three Su-47, it doesn't progress much further anymore. 

Forget Su-47


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## somebozo

VelocuR said:


> Russia has only three Su-47, it doesn't progress much further anymore.
> 
> Forget Su-47



I read it is extremly fuel inefficient..and the air frame is under heavy stress

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## VelocuR

somebozo said:


> I read it is extremly fuel inefficient..and the air frame is under heavy stress



Yeah, it is, too many issues but Russia mostly focus on latest Su-35/Su-30 rather than Su-47.


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## New World

A bit off the topic question..

as we all know that PAF pilots are also trained on su-27 series jets.. but can anyone confirm that did PAF pilots are training on Mig-29??


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## Khanivore

dev_moh said:


> according to me,
> If Pakistan buys Sukhoi 35, it will be beneficial for India.
> Probability of war between India and Pakistan is really low, as long as there is Civilian rule in Pakistan.
> Now, Russian equipment is actually cheaper to buy, but very expensive to maintain.
> And pakistan would have to actually pay to Russia, in one form or another.
> So, although the SU35 will give PAF the required edge, but at the same time, it will also suck up the already tight defence budget of Pakistan.
> If PAF commits to SU35s, Pakistan Military as a whole will have to cut corners.
> 
> Not only this, The IAF is very much familiar to the flankers.
> yes, SU35 is much advanced than SU 30mki.
> But, It still is a flanker.
> Being the largest operator of the flankers IAF is very much familiar to the planes overall.
> yes the advantage is there for PAF, but it will not be a gamechanger.
> ...Just my take.
> 
> @MastanKhan



First of all your opinion is your opinion, from an Indian point of view which I'm afraid, sorry to say, just wreaks of hypocrisy. If Flanders were _that expensive to run and maintain_, do you think the Indian Air Force would form their large fleet of 200 Su-30MKIs as the backbone until 2020 and beyond? Oh and the IAF wants even more, 72 more.

You say the Su-35 is just a _Flanker_. Sukhoi says otherwise (read up).

_The Su-35S maintains a strong superficial resemblance to the Su-27, the airframe, avionics, propulsion and weapons systems of the Su-35 have been thoroughly overhauled. Technological advancements have produced more compact and lighter hardware, such as the radar, shifting the centre of gravity to the aircraft's rear. These improvements removed the need for canards and saw the abandonment of the "tandem triplane" featured on several Su-27 derivatives. Also omitted was the Su-27's dorsal airbrake, which was replaced by differential deflection of the vertical stabilizers. Other aerodynamic refinements include a height reduction of the vertical stabilizers, a smaller aft-cockpit hump, and shorter rearward-projecting "sting". -- (url)



_

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## AtiF Malang

batmannow said:


> I just only know that he can make best of tea cups ?lolzz


But his bad luck USSR or Russia was never UK's colony so for sure Russian don't like tea chahae Chae walae PM Modi ki hath ki he kiyon na ho

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## Bhuvan93

Part of me hopes Pakistan purchases Su-35s, even if they are in a relatively small number ~36. For two reasons:

a) we will know where we stand with Russia, a sale of Su-35s to Pakistan will push us firmly towards the US/Israel/EU and also explore further partnerships with Japan and S.Korea. I'd say a sale of the Su-35 will kill any further new military dealings with Russia after this decade. 

b) the IAF has been lacksadaisical, letting its squadron numbers drop, upgrading ancient Jaguars to extend every bit out of the jet, outdated MiG-21s still flying, stalling on Rafale deal, PAK FA nowhere to be seen, no urgency of AMCA and Tejas going through its own troubles. The PAF purchasing Su-35s will scare the shit out of the IAF/GoI and deservedly so.


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> Do you not read other people's comments, before replying? Seriously?
> 
> 
> I don't know, is @Oscar an Indian?
> 
> I'm done here.



& Oscar is an air force analyst ?seriously ?
Welldone I'm sure you are going to be the next director of NASA ?lolzz



Bhuvan93 said:


> Part of me hopes Pakistan purchases Su-35s, even if they are in a relatively small number ~36. For two reasons:
> 
> a) we will know where we stand with Russia, a sale of Su-35s to Pakistan will push us firmly towards the US/Israel/EU and also explore further partnerships with Japan and S.Korea. I'd say a sale of the Su-35 will kill any further new military dealings with Russia after this decade.
> 
> b) the IAF has been lacksadaisical, letting its squadron numbers drop, upgrading ancient Jaguars to extend every bit out of the jet, outdated MiG-21s still flying, stalling on Rafale deal, PAK FA nowhere to be seen, no urgency of AMCA and Tejas going through its own troubles. The PAF purchasing Su-35s will scare the shit out of the IAF/GoI and deservedly so.


Even going to west in search of a new massive platform will be a deadly mistake for IAF ?
From 10 years on words IAF can't cut itself from Russia even if it wants to kill all of its +flying cofins (mig 21s,23,25, 27s) jaguars ,sea harriers if you take out this junk IAF won't be more then 300 fighters in numbers hugely dependent on your mirages & mig 29s ,SU30 mki but it will be a fast fast , reactionary force ?
I think IAF should go & get as much as Rafael it can get from France , so it can fill in more number with modern day fighters in its inventory ,so at least 20 years from now IAF still stands as modern force ?
By going to USA is like shooting on your own foot , cause USA orders take long times to be delivered ?& surly no TOT ?
Israel,Japan or Korea havnt produced any platform yet ,they just can give you mutipliyers in radar or other specs ?
Best thing IAF should learn is not to buy any fighter jets in large numbers ?
So , end of the story let Pakistan get what it wants & India can get better then that from the same buyer ?



AtiF Malang said:


> But his bad luck USSR or Russia was never UK's colony so for sure Russian don't like tea chahae Chae walae PM Modi ki hath ki he kiyon na ho


Ohh baba,
He can mix it with VODKA , you never know ?lolzz



VelocuR said:


> Russia has only three Su-47, it doesn't progress much further anymore.
> 
> Forget Su-47


Berkut , is in process of modernisation & will be modified in conning few years for more experimentation. 
But it will be inducted later in good numbers ?



VelocuR said:


> Yeah, it is, too many issues but Russia mostly focus on latest Su-35/Su-30 rather than Su-47.


No its their very special project , they have kept it under covers so no one can think for buying it ?
Russians would have dumped it ,if its not that good but they didnt ?
All they want is to sell as much as SU-30---TILL SU 35 & then get SU -37 & 47S for themselves ?

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## Pangu

I don't see why Russia can't sell Flankers to Pakistan, after all, they not only sold to China, but also India & Vietnam, two countires whom has issues with us. It is business after all.

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## batmannow

Ind4Ever said:


> Pak-Russia talks on Su-35 pressure tactics to get Pak-fa deal from India? | idrw.org
> 
> Can you give any source on Russia's answer towards your deal ? lol Am Indian whatsoever  because am Indian4Ever
> 
> 
> 
> And i think you should also design a picture in which Su35 firing missile at India
> 
> Always DREAM BIG


You must ask their DFM ? Not me ?
Yes you are indian4fever of SU-35 to Pakistan ?lolzz


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## somebozo

New World said:


> A bit off the topic question..
> 
> as we all know that PAF pilots are also trained on su-27 series jets.. but can anyone confirm that did PAF pilots are training on Mig-29??



I think in comparative terms 
MiG 35 = F15 
Su35 = F18

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## Bang Galore

Unlike many countrymen of mine, I'm not inclined to dismiss the talk of Su35 sale to Pakistan as just hot air. Nor am I buying the argument that this is simply a way to get India to buy more Russian planes. If Russia needed to go down that route, there can be many ways apart from showing this red flag. That would be a clumsy way of doing things & the Russians are certainly not stupid. There is something that might be happening here that is not yet very clear and the surmising happening here does not quite cut it.

Regardless of whether such a sale takes place, I believe that the cold war positioning is now history. This is the clearest indication _(the offer itself) _of a state of flux that will likely exist for a substantial period of time. We live in interesting times.



somebozo said:


> I think in comparative terms
> *MiG 35 = F15*
> Su35 = F18



F 15 is a heavier fighter, twin engined.

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## batmannow

Bang Galore said:


> Unlike many countrymen of mine, I'm not inclined to dismiss the talk of Su35 sale to Pakistan as just hot air. Nor am I buying the argument that this is simply a way to get India to buy more Russian planes. If Russia needed to go down that route, there can be many ways apart from showing this red flag. That would be a clumsy way of doing things & the Russians are certainly not stupid. There is something that might be happening here that is not very clear and the surmising happening here does not quite cut it.
> 
> Regardless of whether such a sale takes place, I believe that the cold war positioning is now history. This is the clearest indication _(the offer itself) _of a state of flux that will likely exist for a substantial period of time. We live in interesting times.
> 
> 
> 
> F 15 is a heavier fighter, twin engined.


A long waited mature post !
Yes you are right & its called NWO but not what west ever planned ?
I think still India has the game in its hand but its berucracy more inclined towards kick backs crouption that was the reason why it still orders upgrading the flying coffins in large numbers ?
I think , India can sell its junk ,mig 21,23,25 ,jaguars etc etc to srilanka ,Bangladesh or others & can fill up Rafael in good numbers till it gets its hands on PAKFA ?
At that time ,it will have a lot more options in hand ?


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## HAIDER

Well, Moderator should either merge all SU35 thread in one single thread or leave the thread way it is....strange....( my thread was only informative purpose, not to discuss comparison or political aspect....)


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## batmannow

HAIDER said:


> Well, Moderator should either merge all SU35 thread in one single thread or leave the thread way it is....strange....( my thread was only informative purpose, not to discuss comparison or political aspect....)


Sir , 
With these kind of weapons politics always attached & we are emotional nations ?lolzz


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## HAIDER

batmannow said:


> Sir ,
> With these kind of weapons politics always attached & we are emotional nations ?lolzz


lol...really don't understand some time, how these moderator handle the threads...

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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> & Oscar is an air force analyst ?seriously ?
> Welldone I'm sure you are going to be the next director of NASA ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Even going to west in search of a new massive platform will be a deadly mistake for IAF ?
> From 10 years on words IAF can't cut itself from Russia even if it wants to kill all of its +flying cofins (mig 21s,23,25, 27s) jaguars ,sea harriers if you take out this junk IAF won't be more then 300 fighters in numbers hugely dependent on your mirages & mig 29s ,SU30 mki but it will be a fast fast , reactionary force ?
> I think IAF should go & get as much as Rafael it can get from France , so it can fill in more number with modern day fighters in its inventory ,so at least 20 years from now IAF still stands as modern force ?
> By going to USA is like shooting on your own foot , cause USA orders take long times to be delivered ?& surly no TOT ?
> Israel,Japan or Korea havnt produced any platform yet ,they just can give you mutipliyers in radar or other specs ?
> Best thing IAF should learn is not to buy any fighter jets in large numbers ?
> So , end of the story let Pakistan get what it wants & India can get better then that from the same buyer ?
> 
> 
> Ohh baba,
> He can mix it with VODKA , you never know ?lolzz
> 
> 
> Berkut , is in process of modernisation & will be modified in conning few years for more experimentation.
> But it will be inducted later in good numbers ?
> 
> 
> No its their very special project , they have kept it under covers so no one can think for buying it ?
> Russians would have dumped it ,if its not that good but they didnt ?
> All they want is to sell as much as SU-30---TILL SU 35 & then get SU -37 & 47S for themselves ?


For as long as you've been on this forum, you've never once been right. Get over yourself.


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## Bindovi

*Will not take any step detrimental to India’s security...We have a plan : Russia*

Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.

Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

“Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter,” the statement said.

“This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.

“As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.


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## Asli Lahori1

Bindovi said:


> *Will not take any step detrimental to India’s security...We have a plan : Russia*
> 
> Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.
> 
> Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> “Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter,” the statement said.
> 
> “This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President’s foreign policy concept,” it said.
> 
> “As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, – on the other,” it added.



There comes another analyst. Man these Indian asses are now burning black thick smoke. Do you know how many times this above statement posted by Indians in this thread?


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## Quwa

Sputnik International came up with a great quote summarizing India's habit with acquiring arms...

*"India has an epic story of purchasing – or, rather, non-purchasing – ... "

New Helis for India: Close to Deal After Threats From Boeing, US Army?
*
Whatever Indians might believe, this line here perfectly summarizes how the world sees your "purchasing" power. I think the Russians sensed it, and in time, the French and others will as well. The world arms market would rather make every single dollar available, even the "pennies" in Pakistan, than to end up like the French who are waiting on the worst customer imaginable.

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## shaheenmissile

Irbis-e PESA radar of SU-35 with 300 km detection range of fighter size target and 100 kk lockon will be a great asset. Will be like mini AWACS for Pakistan


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## Quwa

If the negotiations reach an advanced stage, I think the PAF will request 1 squadron (18 aircraft) and base them in Baluchistan with Southern Air Command.

If the first phase is successful, then we might see a second or even a third squadron down the line (totalling 36 or 54 Su-35s). We might end up capping the JF-17 induction program to 150, especially if the Su-35 plays a central role in air superiority missions. The medium-weight category will be carried by the F-16, for which I still expect used and surplus airframes to be pursued, to bring the fleet to its 1988/89-plan of 110.

I would just be interested in seeing how these fighters would even be equipped. Will PAF deal with the HMD/S and munitions itself? Would Russians release a long-range AAM?


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## MastanKhan

Cash GK said:


> A country had
> dream to reach through warm waters. for that she had payed heavy price and even broken into pieces. if she can fullfill its dream to give away some jets. I belive it will be great business. it will be great shift in world power. as I see europ almost blocked the trade ways for russia and nato getting strong. russia going to have safe trade through china and pakistan. what money they going to have through warm wathers. it will b much more then what india trade with russia and end of the day india will want to get into this mighty project. As per my idea 75 persent world business will be get through pakistani land or waters. and no country can win wars or can do trade if it doesnt have strong navy and army. china russia will do every thing to protect their bussines intrests and giveing away some jets and subs not a bad price.hope you guys will understand what my point is...



Hi,

Thank you---your's is the most important post----. It is amazing that how the things have changed over the years---what was only a dream---only in one's imagination---is close to becoming a reality. So many wars---and so many campaigns---all in a failure---and when it happens---it just pops out of nowhere----.

China---Russia---Pakistan----Gwadar----in the next 10 years---nothing will be the same---.

I am literally surprised at the screw up of the united states in Pakistan----every American policy failed when it came to Pakistan---.

And I think that if acquired----initiall target needs to be 3 sqdrn---out of which 2 sqdrn procured immediately---and the funds for the 3rd sqdrn funds diverted for 2 sqdrn's of deep strike aircraft---you know which---by now.

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## Kurlang

@Horus, and dear moderators there are so many threads on SU-35 that I have actually lost track of what is going on. Kindly merge them if possible.


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## volatile

Great Sachin said:


> question is... Russia will make India angry for this tiny deal with Pakistan
> 
> Anyway....Keep Dreaming....


My question is based on simple fact around 70% weapon inventory is still Russian can you afford to loose 70% vendor ,When India can buy both from US and Russia why Russia cant supply both sides



GURU DUTT said:


> question is what will russia do
> 
> do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35
> 
> tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project
> 
> if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal
> 
> im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK


This is not how Intl business works ,Us is selling to Pak and India ,Long are the days gone when you can squeeze french not to sell to Pak and they made sure they squeeze last drop from you


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## Vyom

Khanivore said:


> Well look at it this way, at least you're one of the few people who can sleep well at night in Hindusitan.



Yes, Obviously, Russia arming Pakistan with jets Su 35 will be great for PAF, with the caveat of higher costs. Look at it this way, moor's' law isn't working in case of aircrafts. As the planes get advanced their costs also go up. with each new generation the tech is getting superior. 

Given the operating costs and ownership costs, also taking into account the time of availability. Pakistan AF needs to have at least 4 Squads to outmatch India in technical terms of airspace defense. (I am hoping the PAF won't go Kamikaze with such equipment but I wont be surprised if they do). You guys will need quite some moolah to keep this birds flying. All the best, if you go ahead and get them.


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## C130

it would be kinda weird to buy the Su-35 when Indian has hundreds Su-30MKI. which is basically the same in performance to the Su-35

the J-16 would make more sense since it comes with Chinese avionics and weapons that India does not posses, and so would have no experience with their capabilities. 

F-16,JF-17, and a few dozen or more J-16 would be a powerful trio.

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## GURU DUTT

mkg00179504 said:


> You should provide a credible source for the above highlighted part, since you mention it about 10 times a day in every PAF thread. Or else I ll request Mods to take action against you. Again provide a credible source not your favorite Wiki. Provide a source which particularly mention that US techs are putting in the codes in F 16. Not maintenance related issues.


check it yourself if you dont beleve wikepedia like links im noty entitelled or answerable to you


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## Bossman

C130 said:


> it would be kinda weird to buy the Su-35 when Indian has hundreds Su-30MKI. which is basically the same in performance to the Su-35
> 
> the J-16 would make more sense since it comes with Chinese avionics and weapons that India does not posses, and so would have no experience with their capabilities.
> 
> F-16,JF-17, and a few dozen or more J-16 would be a powerful trio.


Su 35s and Su 31 MKIs are not the same. Been discussed in depth in earlier posts

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## C130

Bossman said:


> Su 35s and Su 31 MKIs are not the same. Been discussed in depth in earlier posts


no they aren't but India is upgrading it's Su-30MKI to Super 30's which is practically the same level as the Su-35.


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## GURU DUTT

Bossman said:


> Su 35s and Su 31 MKIs are not the same. Been discussed in depth in earlier posts


but there aint many diffrences either acept the MKI is Twin seat while Ru-35 is single seat on engines MKI uses AL-41 while Su-35 uses F-117 while MKI has 2D TVC Su-35 BM has 3D TVC but its the israeli and french avionicks and internal self protection jammers while rumour is MKI aslo compatiable to all kinds of French and Israeli built air to air and air to ground wepons


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## C130

but then again the Su-35 Irbis-E radar seriously outclasses the BARS radar on the MKI and the Zhuk-AE, and has stronger engines and 3D thrust vectoring so it doesn't need canards.


but it would still come to the pilot and the Indians are probably the best and most experienced flanker fighters in the world.


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## 21 Dec 2012

C130 said:


> but then again the Su-35 Irbis-E radar seriously outclasses the BARS radar on the MKI and the Zhuk-AE, and has stronger engines and 3D thrust vectoring so it doesn't need canards.
> 
> 
> but it would still come to the pilot and the Indians are probably the best and most experienced flanker fighters in the world.


I'm very much more interested what happens to India's purported $5 billion investment in the PAK-FA, now that Russia is offering to arm its enemy with a more superior jet than IAF's frontline. Russia could after all sell that to Pakistan again and India ends up fighting a jet it itself helped create lol.


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## C130

21 Dec 2012 said:


> I'm very much more interested what happens to India's purported $5 billion investment in the PAK-FA, now that Russia is offering to arm its enemy with a more superior jet than IAF's frontline. Russia could after all sell that to Pakistan again and India ends up fighting a jet it itself helped create lol.




even if Russia sells and Pakistan buys Pakistan can't afford many maybe 24 at most 36 compared Indians 200 Su-30MKI and they might buy/build more if the Rafale deal and AMCA doesn't pan out.

U think it's a little tit for tat you know since India went after the Rafale and not a Russia fighter and the whole fiasco with Pak-FA/FGFA, so they are just messing with one another, but not enough to destroy relations over.

but like what I said earlier Pakistan could just go for J-16 or J-11D instead and J-20 is a long shot.


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## 21 Dec 2012

C130 said:


> even if Russia sells and Pakistan buys Pakistan can't afford many maybe 24 at most 36 compared Indians 200 Su-30MKI and they might buy/build more if the Rafale deal and AMCA doesn't pan out.
> 
> U think it's a little tit for tat you know since India went after the Rafale and not a Russia fighter and the whole fiasco with Pak-FA/FGFA, so they are just messing with one another, but not enough to destroy relations over.
> 
> but like what I said earlier Pakistan could just go for J-16 or J-11D instead and J-20 is a long shot.


Its a big leap over Pakistan's existing capabilities for sure regardless of Indian flanker numbers and provides with much more options thanks to its *heavy Trump accent* huuuuge */heavy Trump accent* range ad massive payload. I don't think we ever offered them (or the Chinese) F-15 or any other front-line jet. Maybe time for India to re-evaluate their suppliers


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## C130

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Its a big leap over Pakistan's existing capabilities for sure regardless of Indian flanker numbers and provides with much more options thanks to its *heavy Trump accent* huuuuge */heavy Trump accent* range ad massive payload. I don't think we ever offered them (or the Chinese) F-15 or any other front-line jet. Maybe time for India to re-evaluate their suppliers




Sukhois are notorious for being expensive to maintain, and Russia charges an arm and leg for parts to fix'em. maybe that's why India was looking towards to Western jets.


but yeah Pakistan needs a heavy fighter with long range.

think there is thread about the Xiang JH-7B that would give Pakistan that capability.


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## Kakaspai

C130 said:


> but like what I said earlier Pakistan could just go for J-16 or J-11D instead and J-20 is a long shot.


China can not export any derivative of its Flankers

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## !eon

Kakaspai said:


> China can not export any derivative of its Flankers


Why ?


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## 21 Dec 2012

C130 said:


> Sukhois are notorious for being expensive to maintain, and Russia charges an arm and leg for parts to fix'em. maybe that's why India was looking towards to Western jets.
> 
> 
> but yeah Pakistan needs a heavy fighter with long range.
> 
> think there is thread about the Xiang JH-7B that would give Pakistan that capability.


JH-7B isn't much of a fighter and being Chinese its of dubious quality. Plus all Chinese flankers rely on Russian engines. If Russians are willing to sell and I am Pakistan, I would def. go for it as it is also a major diplomatic victory. *heavy Trump accent* Its the best deeal */heavy Trump accent*

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## Kakaspai

!eon said:


> Why ?


They have some kind of agreement with the Russians


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## !eon

Kakaspai said:


> They have some kind of agreement with the Russians


I don't think so. These models only share their designs with Russian counterparts.
Pakistan is already using Chinese version of Russian jet. i.e. F-7.


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## Kakaspai

!eon said:


> I don't think so. These models only share their designs with Russian counterparts.
> Pakistan is already using Chinese version of Russian jet. i.e. F-7.


They do share the designs that is russian.


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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> For as long as you've been on this forum, you've never once been right. Get over yourself.


@mods please let Mr that guy become the UN secretary general ?lolzz
Sure , I'm wrong & the forum is wrong & the whole world is wrong ?lolzz
Right Mr always right ?



GURU DUTT said:


> check it yourself if you dont beleve wikepedia like links im noty entitelled or answerable to you


& who believed wikipedia ?lolzz
You can tailored it anytime u want ?right ?
Man IAF will.be in shatters once SU-35s starts flying in Pakistani skies ?
Just accept it ?lolzzz


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## !eon

Kakaspai said:


> They do share the designs that is russian.


That's why I don't think Russia is going to block exports of these jets, just because they share air frame design.China had been exporting Russian copies which were more than just Russian designs. 
Secondly there is no proof of this, just some members have been saying here and that's all.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Pakistan is poised to upgrade its air force by purchasing what are arguably the best combat aircraft already in use - Russian Su-35 fighters, and here is why.*





Russia-Pakistan Mi-35 Contract Could be Expanded

*A Pakistani government official spoke to IHS Jane's, confirming that the sides had already discussed a possible purchase of the advanced aircraft*, as the Pakistani Air Force requires a two-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".


Currently the country's air force operates a fleet of US F-16s, French Mirage-5s, Chinese F-7s and Sino-Pakistani JF-17s.

Earlier, Moscow and Islamabad clinched a deal on the delivery of Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters to Pakistan, and the contract could be expanded. 

While the media are discussing the PAK FA, F-35 and J-20, the fifth-generation aircraft being tested in Russia, the US and China respectively, the fully operational Su-35 seems even more reliable for the moment. It has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology", rendering it superior to other fourth-generation fighters under development.








Ad Astra: Russian Tu-160 and PAK DA Strategic Bombers to Use Star Power
In fact, only the absence of stealth technology and an active electronically scanned array formally separates this plane, which is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds, from the family of fifth-generation jets.


The Su-35, NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is a multirole fighter that is capable of engaging several air targets simultaneously.


Read more: Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters

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## abdulbarijan

C130 said:


> it would be kinda weird to buy the Su-35 when Indian has hundreds Su-30MKI. which is basically the same in performance to the Su-35
> 
> the J-16 would make more sense since it comes with Chinese avionics and weapons that India does not posses, and so would have no experience with their capabilities.
> 
> F-16,JF-17, and a few dozen or more J-16 would be a powerful trio.





C130 said:


> Sukhois are notorious for being expensive to maintain, and Russia charges an arm and leg for parts to fix'em. maybe that's why India was looking towards to Western jets.
> 
> 
> but yeah Pakistan needs a heavy fighter with long range.
> 
> think there is thread about the Xiang JH-7B that would give Pakistan that capability.



There are a few factors we should be considering here ...

-The Chinese flankers according to the rumor mill are _not for export because of the issues of intellectual property rights_ ... while Russia can live with the Chinese taking their basic designs of the flankers and getting them upgraded by using Chinese systems to get J-11/15/16etc. .... they cannot simply afford to loose market to Chinese flankers ... So I guess thats why we cannot get hands on the Chinese flankers even though they might be much more preferable if there were no such factors at play ...

-Coming to the point of JH-7 .. It is a very good strike platform with 8+ tonnes payload capability .. however the problem is with the protection of EEZ and the CPEC ... what Pakistan needs is to have deterrence ... the IN carriers deploy the Mig-29 K ... the latest version of the Mig-29 series .. and not to mention ... the SU-30's can actually support IN owing to their long range ... So to deter such odds we would need JFT's in numbers to support the JH-7's as it is not as capable an air to air fighter ...
Instead of going that route, _getting in 1 squadron of SU-35 and 1 of JFT as a naval air arm would be more then enough to deter any kind of threat ..._ Not only that, but we get a major diplomatic breakthrough if the deal gets through ... we can then negotiate for other weapon systems such as the S-300 etc adding more teeth to our defense capabilities..

-Lastly, provided the deal goes through ..._ the most likely chance is of heavy input in the avionics/radars/weapons from the Chinese side which may lead the fighter jet to become another beast altogether, just like how the SU-30K for export differs from the SU-30 MKI/MKK or the MKM... so the most likely chance (again, provided the deal goes through) is that the flanker up for export which is purely Russian wouldn't be the one we end up getting ..._

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> @mods please let Mr that guy become the UN secretary general ?lolzz
> Sure , I'm wrong & the forum is wrong & the whole world is wrong ?lolzz
> Right Mr always right ?
> 
> 
> & who believed wikipedia ?lolzz
> You can tailored it anytime u want ?right ?
> Man IAF will.be in shatters once SU-35s starts flying in Pakistani skies ?
> Just accept it ?lolzzz


in short : first buy su-35s then boast about shattering IAF 

na soot na kapaas aur julahhe lathhamm lathhaa ... "lolzzzz"


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## RazorMC

Dalit said:


> Endure! Endure as much as you can LMAO there is so much more that you are going to have to endure. This is only beginning...


Do you have any idea how many threads are (were) running on the same topic?


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## jaibi

You know how it is here, dude.


That Guy said:


> Fine. I apologize. In my defense, it angers me when people say blatantly uninformed opinion, and present them as facts.

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## Cash GK

thanks for your kind remarks. I have better idea to get these 70to 80jets with out paying money to russia. we can offer them to use our ports for 10 years in exchange we need these weapons. after all they have to pay us transit money if they use our roads. we can use trasit fee as a visa card for weapons as these jets will be there in pakistan to provide safty to their trade....


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> in short : first buy su-35s then boast about shattering IAF
> 
> na soot na kapaas aur julahhe lathhamm lathhaa ... "lolzzzz"



Although I would identify as a skeptic of the SU-35 deal, but Guru Jii your trying way too hard to convince noone but yourself that PAF wont get SU-35 ... the fact speaks for itself when you look at your contribution to the SU35 threads which 'just happens' to more then most Pakistani posters put together ... and is composed of the very same points expressed time and again ..

But then again your advice is kind of ironic ... coming from someone whose nation's fanboys react the exact same way when it comes to deals such as the MMRCA or PAK-FA or projects such as AMCA or LCA Tejas ...

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## aliyusuf

!eon said:


> I don't think so. These models only share their designs with Russian counterparts.
> Pakistan is already using Chinese version of Russian jet. i.e. F-7.



Limited number of MiG-21Fs were provided by the Soviet Union to PRC and the assistance was stopped after the ideological split in communism between China and the Soviet Union. China developed F-7 from it. That was a fighter of a different era and different political dynamics were prevalent.

The Chinese Flankers (so called clones) are actually based on current Russian design and most of them have now been flying with Chinese engines. These are potentially a threat to Russian Flanker export market and China does not want to further aggravate this issue of cloning Russian technology by encroaching on the Russian version's sales prospects as well. So there is a tacit agreement.

That is why these talks are going on. Pakistan and China honoring Russian Technology rights. Even if they fail, PAF will be pursuing the heavies (IMHO) and if push comes to shove will purchase a Chinese Flanker (which already have AESA) ... as it won't be spoiling a Russian deal as the Russians in that case would have already denied the sale to Pakistan. It is a very good win-win situation for the PAF.

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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> Although I would identify as a skeptic of the SU-35 deal, but Guru Jii your trying way too hard to convince noone but yourself that PAF wont get SU-35 ... the fact speaks for itself when you look at your contribution to the SU35 threads which 'just happens' to more then most Pakistani posters put together ... and is composed of the very same points expressed time and again ..
> 
> But then again your advice is kind of ironic ... coming from someone whose nation's fanboys react the exact same way when it comes to deals such as the MMRCA or PAK-FA or projects such as AMCA or LCA Tejas ...


read again did u ever saw me saying russia wont sell pakistan su-35 

i said first buy it then make fun of weather india is shatterred or not .... dont count your chickens till they have hatched..."lolzzz"


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## AtiF Malang

@abdulbarijan bhai @GURU DUTT nao chaddo . He is acting like Pigeon .


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## Dalit

Keep these threads coming. We need as much news and updates as possible. The Su-35s are absolute beauties and a couple of squadrons will give us what we really need.


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## aliyusuf

Cash GK said:


> thanks for your kind remarks. I have better idea to get these 70to 80jets with out paying money to russia. we can offer them to use our ports for 10 years in exchange we need these weapons. after all they have to pay us transit money if they use our roads. we can use trasit fee as a visa card for weapons as these jets will be there in pakistan to provide safty to their trade....



But Sir, in CPEC, we have already given the port to China??!!


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## Cash GK

aliyusuf said:


> But Sir, in CPEC, we have already given the port to China??!!


I am not saying give them. I said let them use and we did not give our roads to anyone. they have to drive their trucks on those pakistani roads. so we have lost of options.we just need smart mind in islambad office


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> read again *did u ever saw me saying russia wont sell pakistan su-35 *
> 
> i said first buy it then make fun of weather india is shatterred or not .... dont count your chickens till they have hatched..."lolzzz"



You kind of did actually ...



GURU DUTT said:


> now thats interesting but tell me dear sir* do you realli think russia will risk its future protects with india to sell a few su-35s to pakistan when khair janne do *



As far as your analogy goes ... I agree.. but then again ... your side is the one celebrating for 7 years or so ... to the point where the MMRCA deal has nearly fallen apart .. orders are being reduced for Pak-FA/FGFA .. and nobody even knows when AMCA will become a reality as the dear Tejas is still under question ...but please continue on with your lecture ... we're listening ...

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## AliWaqar

awesomSu35 ab tu ah e jao

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## mourning sage

Even if the deal doesn't go through, the rate at which news about this beast is coming out will give my neighours several sleepless nights. India hit Pakistan below the belt by going to the Middle East. Pakistan replied and has India by its Balls. I never thought we Pakistanis are capable of fighting a diplomatic war. but hallelujah, we aint just fighting it, we're killing it.

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## RazorMC

@mods, requesting a Mega thread for Su-35 related threads

@Slav Defence , @waz

Most of the threads are quoting very similar articles, publications and statements.


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## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> You kind of did actually ...
> 
> 
> 
> As far as your analogy goes ... I agree.. but then again ... your side is the one celebrating for 7 years or so ... to the point where the MMRCA deal has nearly fallen apart .. orders are being reduced for Pak-FA/FGFA .. and nobody even knows when AMCA will become a reality as the dear Tejas is still under question ...but please continue on with your lecture ... we're listening ...


evev here i dint said that russia wont sell pakistan su-35... i said *"will" *russia sell pakistan su-35 ? 

tell me has russia declared sale of su-35 to pakistan "till now"......."lolzzzz"


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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> in short : first buy su-35s then boast about shattering IAF
> 
> na soot na kapaas aur julahhe lathhamm lathhaa ... "lolzzzz"


Let us buy our $u-35 then come & cry ?lolzz


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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Let us buy our $u-35 then come & cry ?lolzz


be my guest


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## volatile

I mean you are willing to loose 70% inventory supplier worth around billions of dollars and replace it with what American .Good luck to you 



Great Sachin said:


> if Russia can afford to lose India who is the biggest buyer in the world and biggest buyer for Russia.....so good luck


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## GURU DUTT

volatile said:


> I mean you are willing to loose 70% inventory supplier worth around billions of dollars and replace it with what American .Good luck to you


its a buyers market question is will russia anger india with sale of su-35 to pakistan but if russia does question is what will or what can india do .......

my assesment is india will then systamaticalli over a period of time for spares will do a la china policy on russia (make indian spares for russian equipment in indian innoventorry like china did with russia after russia stoped Mig-21 spares to china and J-7 was born) 

and guess what we have all the supporting infra for that + USA will /is more that ready to jump in any such situation and support india fulli to the best of its abilities.... 

now what does this means to india and what does it means to russia you can speculate yoursefl


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## DANGER-ZONE

^* Yeah a fatal cut from a sword is better then the torture of a hundred needles.*
BTW I never see any of you guys asking MODS for a sticky threads when it comes for Indian Defence section and its topics.


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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> abhi to khel bas shuru hi hua hai sirji picture to abhi baaki hai


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> View attachment 259013
> View attachment 259013


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## ali_raza

GURU DUTT said:


> View attachment 259022


this man is enough for expressing ur feelings for us.as he is almost the most hated person in pakistan


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## Pindi Boy

GURU DUTT said:


> abhi to khel bas shuru hi hua hai sirji picture to abhi baaki hai



View attachment 259013



GURU DUTT said:


> View attachment 259022




_I have stopped getting excited about such pieces of news. Because generally it goes like "Pakistan has shown interest in SU-35"...after 2 years, Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35... after more 2 years, Pakistan has decided to go further with the deal...after 2 more years, tan tanan Pakistan has decided to buy 4 units of SU-35 and it could include 2 more units if 'satisfied...deliveries will begin in 4 years...!
And that's simply mind craping_


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## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> evev here i dint said that russia wont sell pakistan su-35... i said *"will" *russia sell pakistan su-35 ?
> 
> tell me has russia declared sale of su-35 to pakistan "till now"......."lolzzzz"



-Russia sells Pakistan RD-93 via China even with India protesting .. (2007)

-Suggestion of many to sell Mig-35 to Pakistan as a consequence for not shortlisting it as an MMRCA contender (2011)

-Rumors of Pakistan looking at SU-35 spread around Chinese forums (2012)

-Russia lifts the arms embargo over the delivery of military hardware to Pakistan (2014)

-Russia agrees to directly deliver RD-93 to Pakistan (2014)

-Rumor mill goes wild when Chinese forums start reporting that they can now deliver J-10 with AL-31 which was previously rumored to not be exportable as Russia was not agreeing to re-export AL-31. (2015)

-Ilya Karmik in his article in Sputnik International referred to Pakistan as a potential buyer of SU-35 (2015)

-Russian deputy foreign minister confirms there are talks being held for the sale of SU-35 to Pakistan (2015)

-Pakistani side confirms that talks are being held for SU-35 (2015)
*
The question today is not of the willingness of the Russians to sell the aircraft to Pakistan, but about whether the SU-35 as a whole package, will be the right fit for the job PAF is looking for ...*

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## Khanivore

GURU DUTT said:


> my assesment is india will then systamaticalli over a period of time for spares will do a la china policy on russia (make indian spares for russian equipment in indian innoventorry like china did with russia after russia stoped Mig-21 spares to china and J-7 was born)


MiG-21 technology was far easier to replicate but the Su-30MKI is no joke, India needs a serious infrastructure and expertise of China-level to do anything remotely similar to how quickly the Chinese can produce a clone. My friend, India has a lot to learn from China because, whilst being under sanctions China worked very hard to be were they are today.



GURU DUTT said:


> and guess what we have all the supporting infra for that + USA will /is more that ready to jump in any such situation and support india fulli to the best of its abilities....
> now what does this means to india and what does it means to russia you can speculate yoursefl


I speculate that India still needs Russia for many reasons. You guys love your Russian toys.


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## GURU DUTT

usama fiaz said:


> View attachment 259013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _I have stopped getting excited about such pieces of news. Because generally it goes like "Pakistan has shown interest in SU-35"...after 2 years, Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35... after more 2 years, Pakistan has decided to go further with the deal...after 2 more years, tan tanan Pakistan has decided to buy 4 units of SU-35 and it could include 2 more units if 'satisfied...deliveries will begin in 4 years...!
> And that's simply mind craping_


Su-35 was offerred to india aswell for MRCA as india needed a good strike fighter jet that can also do a interceptor job in a single sortie (omnirole) and should have an AESA after Mig-35 lost the race but we dint bother ... yes you are right there were rumours that russia might sell su-35s to pakistan almost two years back but like now even then it was a bluff to get a certain arms deal from india where russia was one of the suppliers but eventualli americans won it same is the story this time but all hub bul watan pakistani members on this forum are acting way too emotional and hoping against hope ... well good luck



abdulbarijan said:


> -Russia sells Pakistan RD-93 via China even with India protesting .. (2007)
> 
> -Suggestion of many to sell Mig-35 to Pakistan as a consequence for not shortlisting it as an MMRCA contender (2011)
> 
> -Rumors of Pakistan looking at SU-35 spread around Chinese forums (2012)
> 
> -Russia lifts the arms embargo over the delivery of military hardware to Pakistan (2014)
> 
> -Russia agrees to directly deliver RD-93 to Pakistan (2014)
> 
> -Rumor mill goes wild when Chinese forums start reporting that they can now deliver J-10 with AL-31 which was previously rumored to not be exportable as Russia was not agreeing to re-export AL-31. (2015)
> 
> -Ilya Karmik in his article in Sputnik International referred to Pakistan as a potential buyer of SU-35 (2015)
> 
> -Russian deputy foreign minister confirms there are talks being held for the sale of SU-35 to Pakistan (2015)
> 
> -Pakistani side confirms that talks are being held for SU-35 (2015)
> *
> The question today is not of the willingness of the Russians to sell the aircraft to Pakistan, but about whether the SU-35 as a whole package, will be the right fit for the job PAF is looking for ...*


challo ji good luck with it


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## GURU DUTT

Khanivore said:


> MiG-21 technology was far easier to replicate but the Su-30MKI is no joke, India needs a serious infrastructure and expertise of China-level to do anything remotely similar to how quickly the Chinese can produce a clone. My friend, India has a lot to learn from China because, whilst being under sanctions China worked very hard to be were they are today.
> 
> 
> I speculate that India still needs Russia for many reasons. You guys love your Russian toys.


what if i told you india is already making MKIs in india from raw material level 

anyway good luck with your dreams no harm in dreaming


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## Vyom

GURU DUTT said:


> Su-35 was offerred to india aswell for MRCA as india needed a good strike fighter jet that can also do a interceptor job in a single sortie (omnirole) and should have an AESA after Mig-35 lost the race but we dint bother ... yes you are right there were rumours that russia might sell su-35s to pakistan almost two years back but like now even then it was a bluff to get a certain arms deal from india where russia was one of the suppliers but eventualli americans won it same is the story this time but all hub bul watan pakistani members on this forum are acting way too emotional and hoping against hope ... well good luck
> 
> 
> challo ji good luck with it



BHai patience hai aap me.. bore ho ja raha hoon.. sab ek hi line pe debate kar rahe hain... Ek do log hain who bring variety other wise this like India-Pakistan Peace process. KHaya piya kuch nai ... glass toda 12 ana...

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## GURU DUTT

Vyom said:


> BHai patience hai aap me.. bore ho ja raha hoon.. sab ek hi line pe debate kar rahe hain... Ek do log hain who bring variety other wise this like India-Pakistan Peace process. KHaya piya kuch nai ... glass toda 12 ana...


time paas achha hai per

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## S.U.R.B.

Oscar said:


> If this was being done in a many vs many fight(as it is usually), that is a great target for any wingman or other aircraft to blow out of the sky.
> 
> The Su-35 needs to switch over to the same FLCS setup as the F-22. TVC ONLY when needed.



Very well pointed out bro.
Though it may set the bar high as far as the entertainment aesthetics and of an airshow is concerned.But in a dog fight ,one can't afford to lose momentum.So, it has a very limited utility in a combat /dogfight in which you do not expect your adversary to be alone.

Even with those powerful engines (that may be superior in performance to the previous editions of flanker) the Su-35 still is a big target.Dance it may on it's tail but with that amount of exposure courtesy the shape of this maneuver and drag that comes with it, this is like a target practice for the wingman of your opponent (as you have mentioned).

Gun guns! if you are good : no need to waste a previous sidewinder.

PS: One can expect that the pilot in the cockpit would know all the shortcomings and pitfalls that may come along with that amount of maneuverability.
When your missiles can do all the talking then you do not require it.It's an age of LOAL and HOBS missiles.Those magical arrows have reduced the workload of your pilot.

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## Vyom

GURU DUTT said:


> time paas achha hai per



Haan bas wo toh hai ...FB bekar ho gaya hai aaj kal.... twitter pe log alg pagal hain.. Online Social sites will die slowly..

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## Khanivore

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you india is already making MKIs in india from raw material level


Of course it is. That was the reason for ToT for licensed local assembly but you're forgetting something: it's not 100%. You are still heavily dependent on Russia, France, Israel.


GURU DUTT said:


> anyway good luck with your dreams no harm in dreaming


Are you delusional?  Who said I was dreaming?


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## GURU DUTT

Vyom said:


> Haan bas wo toh hai ...FB bekar ho gaya hai aaj kal.... twitter pe log alg pagal hain.. Online Social sites will die slowly..


point is why pakistanies are so emotional and exited over rubbing indian self confidence and harm indian interests... then be it afghanistan or be it kashmir or be it owr ecomony or be it owr internal or international affairs ?


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## volatile

GURU DUTT said:


> its a buyers market question is will russia anger india with sale of su-35 to pakistan but if russia does question is what will or what can india do .......
> 
> my assesment is india will then systamaticalli over a period of time for spares will do a la china policy on russia (make indian spares for russian equipment in indian innoventorry like china did with russia after russia stoped Mig-21 spares to china and J-7 was born)
> 
> and guess what we have all the supporting infra for that + USA will /is more that ready to jump in any such situation and support india fulli to the best of its abilities....
> 
> now what does this means to india and what does it means to russia you can speculate yoursefl



Listen Pal this was thing of the past most recently Russians are loosing share to there Western counter parts .The old Romance is over now .India sees Russia as partner but Russia sees both India & Pak as partner markets ,You guys didnt buy any thing remarkable which was offered by any other country .For every competitive bid Russia has lost .I see W/W for both Russia and Pak with this deal .Either you end up buying more Russian things or Pak end up opening of major Western Market or both can have deal ,Its called three way


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## GURU DUTT

Khanivore said:


> Of course it is. That was the reason for ToT for licensed local assembly but you're forgetting something: it's not 100%. You are still heavily dependent on Russia, France, Israel.
> 
> Are you delusional?  Who said I was dreaming?


well we know that we are not 100% to the goal but at least we are working on it rather than blaming others for owr misfortunes deu to owr own blunders , plunders and surrenders and making sazishee maqboozze 

but dont worry sooner than later we will achieve what we want 



volatile said:


> Listen Pal this was thing of the past most recently Russians are loosing share to there Western counter parts .The old Romance is over now .India sees Russia as partner but Russia sees both India & Pak as partner markets ,You guys didnt buy any thing remarkable which was offered by any other country .For every competitive bid Russia has lost .I see W/W for both Russia and Pak with this deal .Either you end up buying more Russian things or Pak end up opening of major Western Market or both can have deal ,Its called three way


well if russia sells to pakistan what can we do about it but it will make sure that switch over to USA , Israel and France or germany , japan for owr needs its a buyers market you have cash go ahead whose stopping you 

even now we have a balance of saught and thats what troubling russia .... good luck and cheers mate


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## Khanivore

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you india is already making MKIs in india from raw material level


Of course it is. That was the reason for ToT for licensed local assembly but you're forgetting something: it's not 100%. You are still heavily dependent on Russia, France, Israel.


GURU DUTT said:


> anyway good luck with your dreams no harm in dreaming


Are you delusional?  Who said I was dreaming? 


GURU DUTT said:


> well we know that we are not 100% to the goal but at least we are working on it...
> but dont worry sooner than later we will achieve what we want


Yes, I can see that you are indeed getting closer to 100% self-reliant goal.. _by *buying* more and more._ 

Here's a reminder, thanks to ni8mare's informative list...



ni8mare said:


> *All the items listed below are actually happening:*
> TANKS = 5 BN
> Brahmos JV program
> Mig29K
> HELICOPTER=4BN
> SU 30MKI (42 NOS)=4.2 BN
> MISSILES = AAM, AGM,AShM ETC
> Helicopter upgrade=2 bn
> Frigate and destroyer upgrade=?? (recently passed will be with VLS shtil-1 etc)
> 
> *All the items listed below are actually in process:*
> PAKFA + FGFA = 35BN
> NUKE SUB=1BN
> Su-30 upgrade = 5 bn
> 
> *All the items might happen in future:*
> SUBs deal = 10 bn
> FRIGATE = 3BN


Keep working on it.


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## GURU DUTT

Khanivore said:


> Of course it is. That was the reason for ToT for licensed local assembly but you're forgetting something: it's not 100%. You are still heavily dependent on Russia, France, Israel.
> 
> Are you delusional?  Who said I was dreaming?
> 
> Yes, I can see that you are indeed getting closer to 100% self-reliant goal.. _by *buying* more and more._
> 
> Here's a reminder, thanks to ni8mare's informative list...
> 
> 
> Keep working on it.


well we are not till the mark cause we were way to laid back and that too deu to corruption in highrarchy of owr beurocracy and political elite but since Namo is here and he is uncorruptable he has initiated the publick private initiative that was long long overdeu we have started to get some positive results and soon when all indian private players will eneter this field we will certainli become a force to recon with just like owr automotive IT , Pharma & industry yes we are late but at least we are now working on it like never before it will take some time but indiactions are very positive .... there is no short cut to sucsess


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## Khanivore

GURU DUTT said:


> well we are not till the mark cause we were way to laid back and that too deu to corruption in highrarchy of owr beurocracy and political elite but since Namo is here and he is uncorruptable he has initiated the publick private initiative that was long long overdeu we have started to get some positive results and soon when all indian private players will eneter this field we will certainli become a force to recon with just like owr automotive IT , Pharma & industry yes we are late but at least we are now working on it like never before it will take some time but indiactions are very positive .... there is no short cut to sucsess


I'm afraid bureaucracy and corruption is so deep rooted in that part of the world that it will be a long while before India is anywhere near 100% self-reliance status. We might be looking at at least 25 yrs or more if we look at what India was trying achieve a few decades back. We also have to bear in mind the fact that the West and Russia do not wish to see India self-sufficient, otherwise it's a loss of business for them.


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## GURU DUTT

Khanivore said:


> I'm afraid bureaucracy and corruption is so deep rooted in that part of the world that it will be a long while before India is anywhere near 100% self-reliance status. We might be looking at at least 25 yrs or more if we look at what India was trying achieve a few decades back. We also have to bear in mind the fact that the West and Russia do not wish to see India self-sufficient, otherwise it's a loss of business for them.


cant say about pakistan but things ahve already started to look positive ever since modi came to power its too earli no dought but its making an impact earlier when i use to go to any fgoverment office the clerk always use to come after 11 o clock and dint wait for 5 minutes past 5 o clock now he is there at 9:30 and can be found till 5.30 and thats the basic level if you check owr top beurocracy they are even more focussed and disciplined now and deu to things like RTI & sting operations and drive by this goverment and by putting all goverment files online for every one to check them and making procedures like filling of tax returns or applying for things like driving liecesnse or paasport or goverment tenders thru internet has changed the system and doing corrution deu to manupulations is becoming ever more difficult and they (beurocrats)are much much more cautious to do any saught of corruption

now for self sufficiency well no one will give you there buisness or buisness secrets until you have strong internal base and are open /ready to share profits with them and make them your partners and can increase there profits if they asses its profitable they will invest in you and your conception ...... thats why whole world wants to invest in india by this they just wont get profit after cheaper production cost but also create a new breed of consumers for there other products and then make profit of it too ...... its simple buisness and thats what we are doing and we have skills , labour and resolve for that ... just keep watching picture will be clear in couple of years


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## Zarvan

Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter Aircraft

Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.

Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?
@Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @MastanKhan @jaibi

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## Dalit

Sweet. A deal and package for Pakistan/China. Some sort of concession is on the card.

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## gau8av

Zarvan said:


> China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.


24 is a puny number for someone like China.


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## Dalit

gau8av said:


> 24 is a puny number for someone like China.



Who says 24 are the only number of Su-35s China will be ordering?


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## gau8av

Dalit said:


> Who says 24 are the only number of Su-35s China will be ordering?


it's in the OP, second para.. 

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, *China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.*


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## Imran Khan

gau8av said:


> 24 is a puny number for someone like China.


babu jee its phase by phase . her koi MMRCA ka jhansa nhi deta bolo 200 or khareedo 36

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## Dalit

gau8av said:


> it's in the OP, second para..
> 
> While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, *China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.*



Oh Modi baba... This isn't the final order. Stop acting like a fool. This is just the initial order. In other words, bad news for you.


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## Ind4Ever

Wrong information ... Being written on bases of Pakistani official source . Which just confirmed it held talks but why no response from Russia so far ?

But deal may be going thru if Russia says that they don't do anything which under estimate Indian superiority and national security and this 24 won't do any harm. 

If this is being in their minds then it's huge blow for India and our trust with Russians . If this happened whole nation would turn against Russia and which will urge India to boost its military Alliance with west. Now with more western countries like UK Germany Nato dominated countries . 

Let's see what happens during US visit of our prime minister . It's looking like pressure being mounted on India before US trip and then to Russia . India anyway will move ahead with west weither Russia sell su35 to Pakistan or not . Huge twist could be additional Rafale and collaboration with Japanese 5th gen fighter program or Continuing procurement of pasta and fgfa. 

This deal would flip entire game plan for India and Russia . Good or bad or for whom we need to wait and watch .


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## Beast

It is either China buying or pakistan buying but Russian may choose the earlier option to avoid directly infuriating the India despite lower leverage from India on Russian.

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## aliyusuf

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you india is already making MKIs in india from raw material level
> 
> anyway good luck with your dreams no harm in dreaming



True. Which is commendable.
But you cannot build a Flanker from scratch without Russia's help like China can.

Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News


> Business Standard spoke to HAL officials to find out why prices have risen despite an ongoing indigenisation programme that has met all its targets. The reason, it emerges, lies in the nature of the manufacturing contract signed with Sukhoi, which was to see a progressive enhancement of Indian content through four phases. Yet, even though Phase IV has recently been achieved, this provides for *only limited indigenisation*. While Sukhoi was bound to transfer technology for building the fighter, the contract mandates that all raw materials - including *titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia*



ACM Arup Raha Reviews HAL’s Su-30MKI, LCA, Hawk, LCH and Jaguar Production Facilities


> Presently, HAL is manufacturing the aircraft from scratch and has till now produced 150 aircraft. HAL has manufactured approximately 43,000 components in airframe and 6,300 components for engines. Twenty-six special technologies have been absorbed and mastered. With this, *70 per cent components are now made in India by HAL* with 100 per cent technology absorption *as per the contract in airframe and engine*.

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## ganesh623

ISLAMABAD — Analysts are generally skeptical at present of reports Pakistan and Russia are engaged in negotiations for the delivery of a number of Su-35 Flanker E fighter aircraft, though there is a potential requirement for such a heavy fighter.

The reports, first published in Russian media, cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying both sides were negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets alongside the Mi-35M "Hind E" helicopter gunships that have recently been agreed upon.

However, no word on any such negotiations was received from the Ministry of Defence Production in Pakistan when asked for comment on the issue. The agency also handles acquisition.

Experts are generally skeptical of any Su-35 being acquired by Pakistan.

*Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said he "would be most surprised if there were to be any arrangement for provision of Su-35s."

"The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift," Cloughley said.

Though India is actively seeking to diversify its source of equipment from reliance on Russia, and the latter is seeking a new customer that includes limited defense sales to Pakistan, the Indo-Russian relationship is still very strong as evidenced by the co-development of the next generation PAK-FA stealth aircraft.*

Analyst, author and former Pakistani Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail is also unconvinced at present that negotiations for the Su-35 are actually underway.

"To me it seems more like an offer by the Russians, more than anything else," he said.

Many analysts have considered the current Pakistani plan to carry on investing in the JF-17 Thunder program, and acquire further new or surplus F-16s if possible, to be the optimal way of modernizing its air power as well as reducing combat types. A role for such a heavy fighter as the Su-35 has not generally been envisioned.

However, Tufail says there is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations.

The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned."

Pakistan has never operated such a twin-engine fighter aircraft, but Tufail says this has been a shortcoming.

"This has been a yawning gap in [the air force's] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea," he said.

He does not see this as a departure from the established defense posture, but recognition of an existing shortcoming.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario."

Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

Speaking at the time, Tufail said this was overdue: "The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement."

However, he did not believe it would take over the anti-shipping strike role from the Mirage 5, which he flew during his air force career, even though the JF-17 can carry the C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade or the supersonic CM-400AKG.

"This, however, does not necessarily imply that it will immediately take over the maritime attack role. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability," he said.

Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen.
Analysts Skeptical Over Pakistan-Russia Su-35 Negotiations


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## Thəorətic Muslim

24 Su-35s were the number China wanted to buy back in 2013-2014, that too because they wanted to reverse-engineer the engines.

Why hasn't the SU-35 attracted orders?


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## Ind4Ever

Dalit said:


> LOL You just keep patting yourself on the back... Hide like an ostrich and pretend everything is fine.


Dude if want to troll then do it with some one else am not the guy for it. If you has any real issues then do it



Thəorətic Muslim said:


> 24 Su-35s were the number China wanted to buy back in 2013-2014, that too because they wanted to reverse-engineer the engines.
> 
> Why hasn't the SU-35 attracted orders?



Even Russians ordered 60+ MKI variant called SM su30... Too costly and su30 latest version is more easy to operate in terms of service etc as of there are abandoned resources for su30


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## bdslph

Su35 can me added and minus in avionics and weapons and radar


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## Ind4Ever

India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese asserts


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## Indus Falcon

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch How many Su-35 threads do we need on this forum?

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## jaibi

Everyone is excited. 


Indus Falcon said:


> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch How many Su-35 threads do we need on this forum?

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## New World

somebozo said:


> I think in comparative terms
> MiG 35 = F15
> Su35 = F18


well i'm not asking about comparative.. I have ask simple question that India has su-30, mig-29, mirage 2000.. and from them PAF pilots has hands on Su-30 and M2k and i don't know about mig-29 that's why i have asked the question..
@Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Irfan Baloch @Stealth @Foxtrot-Bravo

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## Ind4Ever

jaibi said:


> Everyone is excited.



Make a sticky thread PAF Su35 deal

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## jaibi

Good idea.


Ind4Ever said:


> Make a sticky thread PAF Su35 deal

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## Zarvan

Ind4Ever said:


> Wrong information ... Being written on bases of Pakistani official source . Which just confirmed it held talks but why no response from Russia so far ?
> 
> But deal may be going thru if Russia says that they don't do anything which under estimate Indian superiority and national security and this 24 won't do any harm.
> 
> If this is being in their minds then it's huge blow for India and our trust with Russians . If this happened whole nation would turn against Russia and which will urge India to boost its military Alliance with west. Now with more western countries like UK Germany Nato dominated countries .
> 
> Let's see what happens during US visit of our prime minister . It's looking like pressure being mounted on India before US trip and then to Russia . India anyway will move ahead with west weither Russia sell su35 to Pakistan or not . Huge twist could be additional Rafale and collaboration with Japanese 5th gen fighter program or Continuing procurement of pasta and fgfa.
> 
> This deal would flip entire game plan for India and Russia . Good or bad or for whom we need to wait and watch .


Russian deputy foreign minister was first person to reveal this news Mr I know you find this hard to digest but wake up Mr times have changed.



Thəorətic Muslim said:


> 24 Su-35s were the number China wanted to buy back in 2013-2014, that too because they wanted to reverse-engineer the engines.
> 
> Why hasn't the SU-35 attracted orders?


Quite expensive and is new will get orders soon .

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## [Bregs]

Russia has been trying since past 3-4 yrs for its first SU 35 export customer, lets see if that elusive customer so far is Pakistan or not


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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> Russian deputy foreign minister was first person to reveal this news Mr I know you find this hard to digest but wake up Mr times have changed.


Come on now ! Why do you even think i will be happy about it ? Our aim is to cripple our enemies .So does you .Lets be frank about it . Mean while i like to sum it up . once and for all. 

Letsgo point by point debate ? Let me start as my arse burning 

1) What did Russian deputy foreign minister said ?

2) What did Pakistan official said ? 

go ahead i will wait for you for the anwers


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## Icarus

All PAF Su-35 related threads have been merged here, all further discussion about the PAF Su-35 negotiations should be carried out here. 

Thank You, Happy Posting.

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## Zarvan

Ind4Ever said:


> Come on now ! Why do you even think i will be happy about it ? Our aim is to cripple our enemies .So does you .Lets be frank about it . Mean while i like to sum it up . once and for all.
> 
> Letsgo point by point debate ? Let me start as my arse burning
> 
> 1) What did Russian deputy foreign minister said ?
> 
> 2) What did Pakistan official said ?
> 
> go ahead i will wait for you for the anwers


Both said talks are taking place between two countries for SU-35 Fighter Jets


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## Ind4Ever

[Bregs] said:


> Russia has been trying since past 3-4 yrs for its first SU 35 export customer, lets see if that elusive customer so far is Pakistan or not



Thats has no relevance with pakistan deal. Will india agree to join nato even we both have same enemy ?


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## zebra7

aks18 said:


> welcome to pdf kid i guess before one of your profile got killed by mods here


thanks just kidding for some fun for all so that some serious environment created could be softened. He He


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## [Bregs]

Ind4Ever said:


> Thats has no relevance with pakistan deal. Will india agree to join nato even we both have same enemy ?



India will never join any group or alliance officially and it will always remain pro Russia once the boundary dispute with China is solved. India and china have many common interests minus US and they will converge in future and will learn to live together


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## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese asserts


You depend on Russia too much, it won't be easy as that. Don't let emotions cloud your judgment.


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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> Both said talks are taking place between two countries for SU-35 Fighter Jets



Good ! But its not the answer . 

1st Russians spinned the table by saying talks took place . 

2nd PAF denied it 

3rd Russians dined it 

4th Pakistan officials just " CONFIRMED " talks took place 

5th we are debating about it . 

But it started with Pakistan air force requesting Mi35 from russians. I guess 4 been confirmed and rest may follow sooner or later . Pakistani delegations requested for Su 35 and they have discussed it . But the point is this happen before - 1st point i have given ! It doesn't mean russia agreed to it . If a foreign delegation submit an request or discussed their own topic the side won't be aggressive in its reply . That too when these talks are for strengthening relationship . So the russians answer could had been more diplomatic like "Ok we will look into it and we will continue the process . 

Lets presume if this had happened . And later both side confirmed it (That they discussed between them) 

BUT both sides fully denied procurement plan isn't ? 

This deal is a great loss for both Pakistan which could end up operating very small numbers but spending lots fof its few resources from its overall armed forces . Most of the time this fleet if bought by pakistan will be grounded for maintanence and spares imports from china or russia . 
For the Russians this little deal just over 3 billion will affect future procurment which could be made by India .Thats goes beyond 60-80 billion just in defense sectors al;one .

But still one can argue that India already got trapped by putting all its eggs in one basket RUSSIA .We even trusted Russians so much that our future national security is been planned with Russians weapons in mind like FGFA , FMBT and many more .So India will have no option to still be friends with Russia eve n with they back stab us and break our trust . . . That too new procurement deals are been given to west . My latest source partially conformed India ruled out russian conventional subs and will go for German subs with full ToT of 212 specialized Hull . So irks are going on between India and Russia but i don't think Russia will be willing to loss its largest customer for few 10s or 100s of su35 .


So its too early friends



Khanivore said:


> You depend on Russia too much, it won't be easy as that. Don't let emotions cloud your judgment.


check my previous comment


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## zebra7

C130 said:


> but then again the Su-35 Irbis-E radar seriously outclasses the BARS radar on the MKI and the Zhuk-AE, and has stronger engines and 3D thrust vectoring so it doesn't need canards.
> 
> 
> but it would still come to the pilot and the Indians are probably the best and most experienced flanker fighters in the world.


Sorry some correction Bars NP001 could be easily upgraded to Aesa Bars and processing unit and software upgraded. Cannard in MKI was added due to heavy weight of Bars Radar and if with Super Sukhoi the radar is upgraded to IBRIS-E or upgraded Bars canard could be removed and MKI have 2.5D thrust vectoring.


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## Zarvan

Ind4Ever said:


> Good ! But its not the answer .
> 
> 1st Russians spinned the table by saying talks took place .
> 
> 2nd PAF denied it
> 
> 3rd Russians dined it
> 
> 4th Pakistan officials just " CONFIRMED " talks took place
> 
> 5th we are debating about it .
> 
> But it started with Pakistan air force requesting Mi35 from russians. I guess 4 been confirmed and rest may follow sooner or later . Pakistani delegations requested for Su 35 and they have discussed it . But the point is this happen before - 1st point i have given ! It doesn't mean russia agreed to it . If a foreign delegation submit an request or discussed their own topic the side won't be aggressive in its reply . That too when these talks are for strengthening relationship . So the russians answer could had been more diplomatic like "Ok we will look into it and we will continue the process .
> 
> Lets presume if this had happened . And later both side confirmed it (That they discussed between them)
> 
> BUT both sides fully denied procurement plan isn't ?
> 
> This deal is a great loss for both Pakistan which could end up operating very small numbers but spending lots fof its few resources from its overall armed forces . Most of the time this fleet if bought by pakistan will be grounded for maintanence and spares imports from china or russia .
> For the Russians this little deal just over 3 billion will affect future procurment which could be made by India .Thats goes beyond 60-80 billion just in defense sectors al;one .
> 
> But still one can argue that India already got trapped by putting all its eggs in one basket RUSSIA .We even trusted Russians so much that our future national security is been planned with Russians weapons in mind like FGFA , FMBT and many more .So India will have no option to still be friends with Russia eve n with they back stab us and break our trust . . . That too new procurement deals are been given to west . My latest source partially conformed India ruled out russian conventional subs and will go for German subs with full ToT of 212 specialized Hull . So irks are going on between India and Russia but i don't think Russia will be willing to loss its largest customer for few 10s or 100s of su35 .
> 
> 
> So its too early friends
> 
> 
> check my previous comment


PAF never denied and neither Russians denied it so stop distorting facts. We never asked for it Russians offered it than we considered them and now talks are going forward. Russia also offered MI-28 and three different Air Defence systems


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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> PAF never denied and neither Russians denied it so stop distorting facts. We never asked for it Russians offered it than we considered them and now talks are going forward. Russia also offered MI-28 and three different Air Defence systems



What is your source ? Leave PAF


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## slapshot

Zarvan said:


> PAF never denied and neither Russians denied it so stop distorting facts.


If they stop distorting the fact how would they go to sleep! They distort the fact to make them feel better

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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> PAF never denied and neither Russians denied it so stop distorting facts. We never asked for it Russians offered it than we considered them and now talks are going forward. Russia also offered MI-28 and three different Air Defence systems



What is your source? As you claim Russians offered su35? I can post an source to quote my claims


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## Zarvan

Ind4Ever said:


> What is your source ? Leave PAF


I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.



Ind4Ever said:


> What is your source ? Leave PAF


I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.

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## Irfan Baloch

Indus Falcon said:


> @Icarus @Irfan Baloch How many Su-35 threads do we need on this forum?


as much as there are Indians on this forum who want to tell us that they dont care about this deal and that we must give up the idea of this deal happening. since you and I are not believing them that they dont care so they have to repost again and again telling us how trivial we are and how much they dont care



jaibi said:


> Everyone is excited.


the exact word for "some" is paranoid.

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## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> What is your source? As you claim Russians offered su35? I can post an source to quote my claims



A source would be very much appreciated ...


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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.
> 
> 
> I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.



What you mean by your source ? Is that mean u source was sitting inside room where this negotiations took place . I bet you won't find any ... 

But check this 
*PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist*

I can't find this source either which is weird it's now vanished . It was also debated on PAF itself. I think it got merged with this sticky thread . 

We don't need your source but real source . Or don't try to mislead. Am not here to spoil your party buy I like to keeping it real. I already mentioned It's highly unlikely to go through , But can't be ruled out


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## gau8av

Imran Khan said:


> babu jee its phase by phase . her koi MMRCA ka jhansa nhi deta bolo 200 or khareedo 36


lol but Chinese SU 35 ki raam katha has been going on longer than our MMRCA 

in December we'll get some more clarity on the Russia - India defence relationship when Modi meets Putin, dekho...


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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.
> 
> 
> I have my sources Russia has offered several weapons to us including SU-35. Russia offer of SU-35 was even a shocker for PAF leadership.



What you mean by your source ? Is that mean u source was sitting inside room where this negotiations took place . I bet you won't find any ... 

But check this
*PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist*

I can't find this source either which is weird it's now vanished . It was also debated on PAF itself. I think it got merged with this sticky thread . 

We don't need your source but real source . Or don't try to mislead. Am not here to spoil your party buy I like to keeping it real. I already mentioned It's highly unlikely to go through , But can't be ruled out


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## gau8av

Dalit said:


> Oh Modi baba... This isn't the final order. Stop acting like a fool. This is just the initial order. In other words, bad news for you.


al vida


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## Ind4Ever

abdulbarijan said:


> A source would be very much appreciated ...



I can't find it. But it's in this thread some one could do the favor by going through


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## Beast

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> 24 Su-35s were the number China wanted to buy back in 2013-2014, that too because they wanted to reverse-engineer the engines.
> 
> Why hasn't the SU-35 attracted orders?



China is buying for PAF, why we need 117S engine when our WS-10B reaches 14000KN thrust?


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## Skywalker

GURU DUTT said:


> in short : first buy su-35s then boast about shattering IAF
> 
> na soot na kapaas aur julahhe lathhamm lathhaa ... "lolzzzz"


Why would we be burning the cotton if we have Indian arses to burn.


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## Basel

shaheenmissile said:


> Irbis-e PESA radar of SU-35 with 300 km detection range of fighter size target and 100 kk lockon will be a great asset. Will be like mini AWACS for Pakistan



You forgot to mention its capabilities against ships and ground targets specially for SEAD/DEAD missions.


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## shaheenmissile

Skywalker said:


> Why would we be burning the cotton if we have Indian arses to burn.


Call me. I lost my phone and with that all numbers.


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## [Bregs]

gau8av said:


> *lol but Chinese SU 35 ki raam katha has been going on longer than our MMRCA*
> 
> in December we'll get some more clarity on the Russia - India defence relationship when Modi meets Putin, dekho...



That's because Russia wants to sell it desperately and they can force only India or china. But china do not seems interested and time n again news comes china is buying, thats why this deal lingering on with china


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## gau8av

[Bregs] said:


> That's because Russia wants to sell is desperately and they can force only India or china. But china do not seems intrested and time n again news comes china is buying, thats why this deal lingering on with china


export version to China was to have a much less powerful radar and a few other features missing too. 

and the Russians would be wary of them reverse engineering what they don't get to legit license produce.

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## Basel

Ind4Ever said:


> What is your source ? Leave PAF



Those were offered during IDEAS 2014, a comprehensive presentation was given to Pakistan military officials.


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

New World said:


> well i'm not asking about comparative.. I have ask simple question that India has su-30, mig-29, mirage 2000.. and from them PAF pilots has hands on Su-30 and M2k and i don't know about mig-29 that's why i have asked the question..
> @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Irfan Baloch @Stealth @Foxtrot-Bravo




Well, If we do get this SU-35 beast we surely will have a great advantage in means of an upper hand and air superiority.


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## Pindi Boy

Russia will never sell these birds to us


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## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> What you mean by your source ? Is that mean u source was sitting inside room where this negotiations took place . I bet you won't find any ...
> 
> But check this
> *PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist*
> 
> I can't find this source either which is weird it's now vanished . It was also debated on PAF itself. I think it got merged with this sticky thread .
> 
> We don't need your source but real source . Or don't try to mislead. Am not here to spoil your party buy I like to keeping it real. I already mentioned It's highly unlikely to go through , But can't be ruled out






Ind4Ever said:


> I can't find it. But it's in this thread some one could do the favor by going through



I have found it more or less ... and there was a reason why this "source" was deleted .. It was because it was a journalist who was supposedly citing a PAF official ...not on a published article .. but his twitter ... and the tweet was posted on here by an Indian friend who created an entire thread on it ... if Im not mistaken ...

In the events that followed, He was called out by defence.pk .. to which his response was that he talked to a paf official .. regarding this news ...* Unsurprisingly ... no further comments ever came from his side after the Janes published a piece in which they cited a PAF official saying that talks were on for SU-35 ... *

_*So its the credibility of a journalist whom we've never even heard from ... versus the credibility of Janes ... one of the most reputed and credible source of information in the defense industry *_... you can take your pick ....

Lastly, regarding the series of events you posted ... they are quite off ...

1. Originally after the MMRCA, there were suggestions to the Russian administration, that they should try and sell the Mig-35 that India rejected to Pakistan ... (2011)

Russia Experts Says Russia Could Sell Mig-35 Fighter Jets To Pakistan - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

2.Rumors of Pakistan being interested in SU-35 have swirled around .... (2012)

Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?

3. Sputnik international reported regarding the SU-35 and its exports in which Pakistan was reported as a potential customer .. (July, 2015) (Article by Ilya Kramnik)

Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar

4.Sputnik International quotes Russia's deputy foreign minister, reporting that he said that they were in talks with the Pakistani counter parts regarding the delivery of Mi-35 and SU-35. (September 2015)

Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India

5. This is when the whole commotion starts, with different blogs, websites etc. posting their take on the development, this also happens to be the time frame when that tweet from that journalist came along and a similar tweet from an Indian journalist came along who was claiming that Russian embassy has rejected such reports ... You can find it all on google as quoting all of those sources will take alot of time... but this is the crux of what happened after the news broke ...

6. The only official word that is actually reported that was supposedly against this news was reported by many Indian based websites ... yet I have not found sites with the repute of Janes or sputnik reporting it ... however even in the report itself there is no solid negation of the whole deal as it only says that Russia won't take any step detrimental to India's security ... (September 2015)

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News

7. The confirmation of the talks from the Pakistani side came along when Janes confirmed it ..

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

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## Ind4Ever

abdulbarijan said:


> I have found it more or less ... and there was a reason why this "source" was deleted .. It was because it was a journalist who was supposedly citing a PAF official ...not on a published article .. but his twitter ... and the tweet was posted on here by an Indian friend who created an entire thread on it ... if Im not mistaken ...
> 
> In the events that followed, He was called out by defence.pk .. to which his response was that he talked to a paf official .. regarding this news ...* Unsurprisingly ... no further comments ever came from his side after the Janes published a piece in which they cited a PAF official saying that talks were on for SU-35 ... *
> 
> _*So its the credibility of a journalist whom we've never even heard from ... versus the credibility of Janes ... one of the most reputed and credible source of information in the defense industry *_... you can take your pick ....



Like wise that journo had PAF source Janes had one. This entire deal is like wishy washy. It looks like PAF doing its favour for the Russians for good relationship between both the countries. Because this deal will bring more harm to each other than good deeds. . As I said it's too early to call the shots. And can you provide source for Russians for su35 in 2014 ? Because as far as I good gather information on this I would confidentiality say it's China who is calling the shots for Pakistan but Russians refused by saying we will look in to it . 

See am not saying it's impossible for a Go ahead call but for what ? PAF don't have sufficient capital fund for procurement even though Chinese made some deal over something else with Pakistan will Pakistan take the impact of maintaining 2 engine heavy aircraft which is a fuel guzzlers for sure . It like operating another 60 F16. That too when your enemy is well-known every single aspect of the weapon system . That's on PAF call so I could restrict myself to comment on that. 

But as a whole something is not adding up so let's wait and watch is gonna

And what's even more funny is Russian source which denied any sales quoting Russia won't do such thing which could underestimate Indias security. Now that article is also lost in the air. But I remember commenting on it. In our PAF... Very spooky ...


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## Tameem

SU35 in green colors is a way bigger thing than JF17....., issue have many dimensions and needs to discuss in death.
Therefore, instead of allowing one thread, Mods needs to in place a Special Section for SU35 related thread, just like JF17.

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Manticore


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## Imran Khan

gau8av said:


> lol but Chinese SU 35 ki raam katha has been going on longer than our MMRCA
> 
> in December we'll get some more clarity on the Russia - India defence relationship when Modi meets Putin, dekho...


one visit matter nothing in policy


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## Irfan Baloch

Tameem said:


> SU35 in green colors is a way bigger thing than JF17....., issue have many dimensions and needs to discuss in death.
> Therefore, instead of allowing one thread, Mods needs to in place a Special Section for SU35 related thread, just like JF17.
> 
> @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Manticore


lol that is true but this wont help the issue since the news came out originally the Indians are still creating threads telling us why this will never happen and why dont we understand that Indians dont care about this proposed sale.

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## gau8av

Imran Khan said:


> one visit matter nothing in policy


sure, but some speculation might be laid to rest if India decide to order few squadrons SU 35 to complete the 272 figure from the current 200 MKI

+ scale up the FGFA order numbers 

+ more

ye ladaku-havai jahaz aapko nahi milega !


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## Ind4Ever

abdulbarijan said:


> I have found it more or less ... and there was a reason why this "source" was deleted .. It was because it was a journalist who was supposedly citing a PAF official ...not on a published article .. but his twitter ... and the tweet was posted on here by an Indian friend who created an entire thread on it ... if Im not mistaken ...
> 
> In the events that followed, He was called out by defence.pk .. to which his response was that he talked to a paf official .. regarding this news ...* Unsurprisingly ... no further comments ever came from his side after the Janes published a piece in which they cited a PAF official saying that talks were on for SU-35 ... *
> 
> _*So its the credibility of a journalist whom we've never even heard from ... versus the credibility of Janes ... one of the most reputed and credible source of information in the defense industry *_... you can take your pick ....
> 
> Lastly, regarding the series of events you posted ... they are quite off ...
> 
> 1. Originally after the MMRCA, there were suggestions to the Russian administration, that they should try and sell the Mig-35 that India rejected to Pakistan ... (2011)
> 
> Russia Experts Says Russia Could Sell Mig-35 Fighter Jets To Pakistan - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 2.Rumors of Pakistan being interested in SU-35 have swirled around .... (2012)
> 
> Is PAF going to get 24 Su-35 fighter?
> 
> 3. Sputnik international reported regarding the SU-35 and its exports in which Pakistan was reported as a potential customer .. (July, 2015) (Article by Ilya Kramnik)
> 
> Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar
> 
> 4.Sputnik International quotes Russia's deputy foreign minister, reporting that he said that they were in talks with the Pakistani counter parts regarding the delivery of Mi-35 and SU-35. (September 2015)
> 
> Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India
> 
> 5. This is when the whole commotion starts, with different blogs, websites etc. posting their take on the development, this also happens to be the time frame when that tweet from that journalist came along and a similar tweet from an Indian journalist came along who was claiming that Russian embassy has rejected such reports ... You can find it all on google as quoting all of those sources will take alot of time... but this is the crux of what happened after the news broke ...
> 
> 6. The only official word that is actually reported that was supposedly against this news was reported by many Indian based websites ... yet I have not found sites with the repute of Janes or sputnik reporting it ... however even in the report itself there is no solid negation of the whole deal as it only says that Russia won't take any step detrimental to India's security ... (September 2015)
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
> 
> 7. The confirmation of the talks from the Pakistani side came along when Janes confirmed it ..
> 
> Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360



Thanks for the article brother my point on Russian denial was based on this ! 


> *Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia*
> Last Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2015 - 23:54
> 8
> SHARES
> 
> 
> Share on Facebook
> 
> 
> Share on Twitter
> 
> Whatsapp
> Comment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.
> Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.
> 
> "Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.
> 
> "This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.
> 
> "As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other," it added.
> 
> PTI


Source is from PTI even though zee published it. 

It's too early to call shots. I still stick with my stand . We need to wait and watch it's more like warning from Russia for New ties with US and the rest of Nato


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> babu jee its phase by phase . her koi MMRCA ka jhansa nhi deta bolo 200 or khareedo 36




Aur who bhee waiting list pay

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## Ind4Ever

Zarvan said:


> PAF never denied and neither Russians denied it so stop distorting facts. We never asked for it Russians offered it than we considered them and now talks are going forward. Russia also offered MI-28 and three different Air Defence systems



Check my above quote. Source of Russian denying any 35 sales to Pakistan. My point 3) and at least my point 2 also at least published once before taking it down. Now where is your source of Russia proposing Pakistan it's Ufo fighter 35


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## Pindi Boy

Russia will never sell these birds to us


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## gau8av

Irfan Baloch said:


> the Indians are still creating threads telling us why this will never happen and why dont we understand that Indians dont care about this proposed sale.


I'm not sure about others, some here are indeed looking at going F 35 with the 'murricans but personally, random civvie me will be deeply butthurt to see Su 35 with PAF.

but sadly I have 0 say in how India plays the great game, none of us do actually, it's never a campaign issue, certainly not something anyone apart from us war nerds spend our time thinking about either.

so we'll just have to leave it to the wisdom of the foreign policy elites in south block, I _think _they're a smart bunch.. let's see. 

but don't forget to tag me and rub some namak in my wounds if this happens.


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## Pindi Boy

For indians, this might be now or never. Once chinese have established their base in Gwader along with Pakistan Navy. With Pakistan having the TTP and BLA get on their knees and CPEC, Gwader Projects having Completed to empower pakistan economically.. it might be too late for bhaartis. but then again our swords even now are sharper than ever before, So Lets have a moment of pity for these confused retards.


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## Imran Khan

gau8av said:


> sure, but some speculation might be laid to rest if India decide to order few squadrons SU 35 to complete the 272 figure from the current 200 MKI
> 
> + scale up the FGFA order numbers
> 
> + more
> 
> ye ladaku-havai jahaz aapko nahi milega !




bhai i have somethin from past

Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes

We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu

Don’t believe the hype: What Russia selling helicopters to Pakistan is actually about - Firstpost


Stuck in Sichuan: Pakistani JF-17 Program Grounded


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## Ind4Ever

Imran Khan said:


> bhai i have somethin from past
> 
> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu
> 
> Don’t believe the hype: What Russia selling helicopters to Pakistan is actually about - Firstpost
> 
> 
> Stuck in Sichuan: Pakistani JF-17 Program Grounded




Bhai I got something from present 

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News


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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Aur who bhee waiting list pay


ab to france bhi thak ke beth gaay . all this drama of years was big slap on companies

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## Ind4Ever

Imran Khan said:


> bhai i have somethin from past
> 
> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu
> 
> Don’t believe the hype: What Russia selling helicopters to Pakistan is actually about - Firstpost
> 
> 
> Stuck in Sichuan: Pakistani JF-17 Program Grounded





Ind4Ever said:


> Bhai I got something from present
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News



But fukers might say 24 su35 won't harm India 



Imran Khan said:


> bhai i have somethin from past
> 
> Russia won't arm India's enemies: Dmitry Rogozin - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu
> 
> Don’t believe the hype: What Russia selling helicopters to Pakistan is actually about - Firstpost
> 
> 
> Stuck in Sichuan: Pakistani JF-17 Program Grounded





Ind4Ever said:


> Bhai I got something from present
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News



But fukers might say 24 su35 won't harm India


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## Imran Khan

Ind4Ever said:


> Bhai I got something from present
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News


lolzz always like this they talk  hundreds of JF-17 engines transferred already mi-35 dela sign yes mi-35 armed with roses ? and dozens of mi-17 in pakistan guns small arms APCs and so much but they will not take any step detrimental indinan security by sailing tons of tons weapons to china ? and you guys believe it

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## Tameem

gau8av said:


> I'm not sure about others, some here are indeed looking at going F 35 with the 'murricans but personally, random civvie me will be deeply butthurt to see Su 35 with PAF.
> 
> but sadly I have 0 say in how India plays the great game, none of us do actually, it's never a campaign issue, certainly not something anyone apart from us war nerds spend our time thinking about either.
> 
> so we'll just have to leave it to the wisdom of the foreign policy elites in south block, I _think _they're a smart bunch.. let's see.
> 
> but don't forget to tag me and rub some namak in my wounds if this happens.



The bigger question is does India ready to pay the *price* of not having SU35 in green Colors?

Remember, The price Putin's Russia asking could not be settled in dollars or mere more Orders, that was a status quo. Putin's Russia is in deep crisis with NATO, European Union & with USA at this moment, In Syria their forces are nearing eyeball to eyeball. Russia want India to leave its independent rather US/west leaning approach and joins him in every step, just like USSR/Russia always supports India in her dire needs... 65, 71.

Is India Ready to follows Russian foot steps? If not than be assure you will see SU35 in green colors sooner than later.


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## jupiter2007

If the SU-35 deal doesn't go through, will Pakistan go for J-10C/J-11D or additional F-16s for stop gap purpose?

The US Air Force (USAF) currently operates more than 1,000 F-16C/D aircraft of Block 40/42/50/52 configuration and it's looking to upgrade around 350 of its F-16s under a service-life extension programme (SLEP).
US Air Force (USAF) will start retiring some of the older F-16s from it's service from 2016. These old F16s block 25/30/40 might be sold to other countries.


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## mkg00179504

GURU DUTT said:


> check it yourself if you dont beleve wikepedia like links im noty entitelled or answerable to you


Learn to support your argument with a credible source. Wiki is not a credible source and you always rant about it so give me a credible source.Give me a source where it says US experts are stationed at PAF base to put in the source codes in F 16. Or I ll report all your posts where you keep spreading your false propaganda.


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## Ind4Ever

Imran Khan said:


> lolzz always like this they talk  hundreds of JF-17 engines transferred already mi-35 dela sign yes mi-35 armed with roses ? and dozens of mi-17 in pakistan guns small arms APCs and so much but they will not take any step detrimental indinan security by sailing tons of tons weapons to china ? and you guys believe it



OH OK. Then why Russia arming India against China? And why you can't get PAKFA or T90 tanks. When they love you so much 



jupiter2007 said:


> If the SU-35 deal doesn't go through, will Pakistan go for J-10C/J-11D or additional F-16s for stop gap purpose?


 Plane dropped before taking off


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## Imran Khan

Ind4Ever said:


> OH OK. Then why Russia arming India against China? And why you can't get PAKFA or T90 tanks. When they love you so much
> 
> 
> Plane dropped before taking off


bus ker de mery bhai bus . we have created pakistan because our ways are separate from india . you want us to follow india step by step ? we have own sources of weapons you may know them

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## gau8av

Tameem said:


> The bigger question is does India ready to pay the *price* of not having SU35 in green Colors?
> 
> Remember, The price Putin's Russia asking could not be settled in dollars or mere more Orders, that was a status quo. Putin's Russia is in deep crisis with NATO, European Union & with USA at this moment, In Syria their forces are nearing eyeball to eyeball. Russia want India to leave its independent rather US/west leaning approach and joins him in every step, just like USSR/Russia always supports India in her dire needs... 65, 71.
> 
> Is India Ready to follows Russian foot steps? If not than be assure you will see SU35 in green colors sooner than later.


traditionally India have always maintained a neutral stance on global issues, US/Russia, Israel/Iran, Iran/Saudia, China/Japan..

Crimea, Diaoyu/Senkaku, Jerusalem, Shia/Sunni in the ME.. all these are not of concern to the people of India, and successive Indian administrations have reflected as much in their foreign policy approaches. It has worked good for us, for those feuding and warring parties have reciprocated and refused to get involved in matters of actual concern to India.. like Kashmir.

Russia are in a cold war again with the west now and India have outright refused to be part of any sanctions regime on Russia, and only temporarily scaled back oil purchases from Iran to help facilitate a nuclear deal.

_"Russia want India to leave its independent rather US/west leaning approach and joins him in every step, just like USSR/Russia always supports India in her dire needs... 65, 71." _

India don't have any beef with the west, why should they adopt an aggressive Russian poodle position and make enemies with people with whom there are good relations ? the US never "used" us like some in Pakistan seem to think they used them.

These are delicate matters, India is not a big global player, just a bit of regional power in South Asia.. but for what it's worth, last time Putin came around:


Crimean leader's visit to India with Putin angers West | Business Standard News
Anger as Crimean leader joins Putin’s delegation - The Scotsman
US 'troubled' by reports of Crimean leader visiting India with Vladimir Putin
India Questioned Over Crimean Leader’s Visit
The Moscow Times - News, Business, Culture & Multimedia from Russia

^anything more would be needlessly punching above our weight.


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## New World

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> Well, If we do get this SU-35 beast we surely will have a great advantage in means of an upper hand and air superiority.


Bro, i'm asking about mig-29... Did somewhere in the world paf pilots fly mig-29 like they are flying j-11 and su-30mkk in china??

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## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> Like wise that journo had PAF source Janes had one. This entire deal is like wishy washy. It looks like PAF doing its favour for the Russians for good relationship between both the countries. Because this deal will bring more harm to each other than good deeds. . As I said it's too early to call the shots. And can you provide source for Russians for su35 in 2014 ? Because as far as I good gather information on this I would confidentiality say it's China who is calling the shots for Pakistan but Russians refused by saying we will look in to it .
> 
> See am not saying it's impossible for a Go ahead call but for what ? PAF don't have sufficient capital fund for procurement even though Chinese made some deal over something else with Pakistan will Pakistan take the impact of maintaining 2 engine heavy aircraft which is a fuel guzzlers for sure . It like operating another 60 F16. That too when your enemy is well-known every single aspect of the weapon system . That's on PAF call so I could restrict myself to comment on that.
> 
> But as a whole something is not adding up so let's wait and watch is gonna
> 
> And what's even more funny is Russian source which denied any sales quoting Russia won't do such thing which could underestimate Indias security. Now that article is also lost in the air. But I remember commenting on it. In our PAF... Very spooky ...



I would request you to read my last post as I have edited it, citing in all the major news regarding the subject chronologically ...

Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 159

*Conflicting sources ... which ones to believe ??*

It is not simply a case of

"one source says this .. the other one says this ..so take what you like ... "

when it comes to sources ... It's a tweet of a person who people don't really have a clue about ... when it comes to reporting in defence related matters ..

He could be an excellent journalist .. but whatever he said was in his personal capacity on his twitter ... he never brought in an article, never involved in his institution that he works for ... so the *credibility of such a report is quite flimsy if you ask me .. *

On the other hand you had a complete article in IHS Janes,a reputed Journal in defense ... an institution that has a long history of reporting credible news etc. Other then that you have Sputnik International, another credible institution when it comes to reporting related to defense matters citing Pakistan as a potential customer for SU-35 ... then the Deputy FM's news as reported on Sputnik ..Hence these are three major sources that confirm of talks of SU-35 ..

*Bottom line, these are not two well respected institutions reporting conflicting news, these are well respected institutions reporting one thing and "journalists" based on their private links, quoting something different ...hence there is no conflicting news altogether because, credibility wise ... no one would take a "reporter over twitter" against a well respected journal or a news outlet like Janes or Sputnik...*

Lastly, regarding that last piece in which Russia said it would never undermine India's security etc. It was only reported on Indian based websites, however even if credible ... it does not once state that the news quoted was false ... Infact in the original news piece on Sputnik where the revelation of Russia's Deputy FM talking about the talks of sales of SU-35 and Mi35 the exact quotes of the Deputy FM say that he belived that these items will not cause any jealousy on the Indian side ...
ide ...

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## Ind4Ever

Imran Khan said:


> bus ker de mery bhai bus . we have created pakistan because our ways are separate from india . you want us to follow india step by step ? we have own sources of weapons you may know them



Who want you to follow our lead ? It you who want submit for more than 18 years now. Ironically it's more than our MMRCA  u see... You asked and holded several negotiations with the Russians now su27 upped the leader into 35. That's 8 serial number  you still waiting...... 



abdulbarijan said:


> I would request you to read my last post as I have edited it, citing in all the major news regarding the subject chronologically ...
> 
> Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 159
> 
> Secondly, It is not simply a case of one source says this .. the other one says this ..so take what you like ... when it comes to sources ... It's a tweet of a person who people don't really have a clue about ... when it comes to reporting in defence related matters .. he could be an excellent journalist .. but whatever he said was in his personal capacity on his twitter ... he never brought in an article, never involved in his institution that he works for ... so the credibility of such a report is quite flimsy if you ask me ..
> 
> On the other hand you had a complete article in Janes a reputed Journal in defense ... an institution that has a long history of reporting credible news etc. Other then that you have Sputnik International, another credible institution when it comes to reporting related to defense matters citing Pakistan as a potential customer for SU-35 ... then the Deputy FM's news as reported on Sputnik ..
> 
> Bottom line, these are not two well respected institutions reporting conflicting news, these are well respected institutions reporting one thing and "journalists" based on their private links ... quoting something different ...
> 
> Lastly, regarding that last piece in which India said it would never undermine India's security etc. It was only reported on Indian based websites, however even if credible ...* it does not ...not even once state that the news quoted was false *...
> 
> Infact if you go to the original news piece on Sputnik where the revelation of Russia's Deputy FM talking about the talks of sales of SU-35 and Mi35 the exact quotes of the Deputy FM say that he believes that these items will not cause any jealousy on the Indian side ...



I completely disagree. Because Denial was the last source from Russia. Please go through the dates of each articles. This all started before 10 th. And on 10 alleged PAF denial which was later conformed by PA k officials that too as what ? Discussion on su35 took place when the they met that's again before 10th and after Russian source . 

All these new articles on based on Pakistan source . I don't know whether you got my point or not


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## Tameem

gau8av said:


> traditionally India have always maintained a neutral stance on global issues, US/Russia, Israel/Iran, Iran/Saudia, China/Japan..
> 
> Crimea, Diaoyu/Senkaku, Jerusalem, Shia/Sunni in the ME.. all these are not of concern to the people of India, and successive Indian administrations have reflected as much in their foreign policy approaches. It has worked good for us, for those feuding and warring parties have reciprocated and refused to get involved in matters of actual concern to India.. like Kashmir.
> 
> Russia are in a cold war again with the west now and India have outright refused to be part of any sanctions regime on Russia, and only temporarily scaled back oil purchases from Iran to help facilitate a nuclear deal.
> 
> _"Russia want India to leave its independent rather US/west leaning approach and joins him in every step, just like USSR/Russia always supports India in her dire needs... 65, 71." _
> 
> India don't have any beef with the west, why should they adopt an aggressive Russian poodle position and make enemies with people with whom there are good relations ? the US never "used" us like some in Pakistan seem to think they used them.
> 
> These are delicate matters, India is not a big global player, just a bit of regional power in South Asia.. but for what it's worth, last time Putin came around:
> 
> 
> Crimean leader's visit to India with Putin angers West | Business Standard News
> Anger as Crimean leader joins Putin’s delegation - The Scotsman
> US 'troubled' by reports of Crimean leader visiting India with Vladimir Putin
> India Questioned Over Crimean Leader’s Visit
> The Moscow Times - News, Business, Culture & Multimedia from Russia
> 
> ^anything more would be needlessly punching above our weight.



USSR/Russia almost went to War with US on behalf of India in 71 and on Russian Issues India's replies are....they are not over concerns....wow!!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

New World said:


> well i'm not asking about comparative.. I have ask simple question that India has su-30, mig-29, mirage 2000.. and from them PAF pilots has hands on Su-30 and M2k and i don't know about mig-29 that's why i have asked the question..
> @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Irfan Baloch @Stealth @Foxtrot-Bravo


I do not understand exactly what you are trying to ask. 

PAF knows that IAF flying the above mentioned aircraft hence it is ideal to exercise against these aircraft owned by friendly countries. 
If you do search PDF you are going to find numerous threads regarding training exercises. PAF pilot fly and exercise against the PLAAF SU-30MKK and also against the J-11 series. 

Where as UAE Mirrage 2000-5 are also used to train PAF pilots. These are the most advance ones. 
Similarly Egyptian Air Force M2K's also provide PAF pilots enough training. 

As far as training against Mig29's is concerned do not know exactly where PAF has been conduction training but in the past some aircraft were flown to evaluate these aircraft. Indonesia might be the place where PAF pilots flew and exercised against Mig-29.

The situation might change once PAF starts to exercise with the Russians.... 

PAF even sends PAF pilots to RAF where they train on the Eurofighter and in various exercise have been recorded with kills of EFT. KSA also provides training exercises against the EFT, F-15 and Tornado's. 

Hope this is going to answer your questions.

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## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> I completely disagree. Because Denial was the last source from Russia. Please go through the dates of each articles. This all started before 10 th. And on 10 alleged PAF denial which was later conformed by PA k officials that too as what ? Discussion on su35 took place when the they met that's again before 10th and after Russian source .
> 
> All these new articles on based on Pakistan source . I don't know whether you got my point or not



I get your point, but I disagree on the basis of the following points:-

-*The so called "denial" wasn't a denial to begin with*, the news report which was not Russian, but an Indian media house quoting Russian Embassy in India stating that it would not take any steps that would be "detrimental to the security of India" -- leaving that part up for the beholder to translate and understand... what exactly encompasses "steps that might be detrimental to the security of India" -- To Russia with the IAF having 200+ SU-30 MKI ... selling 2-3 squadrons of SU-35 might not be "detrimental to the security of India" ...

-Secondly, *at no point, did the statement from the Russian embassy negated that the reports on Sputnik quoting their Deputy FM were false ...*

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News

Can you please provide where this report explicitly states that what sputnik reported was false or that the talks for SU-35 with Pakistan are not taking place ...

-Lastly, the IHS Janes report was the last report on the matter (18th September) which confirmed the talks from the Pakistani side, the Russian side has two quotes, both previously stated & linked ... where Ilya Kramink and the Deputy FM of Russia said that "Pakistan is a potential customer" and "talks are on" respectively..

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## Trisonics

The scenario is getting interesting and muddled every passing day. I think Russians have indeed decided to risk military sales to India owing to some trouble brewing between India and Russia on the PAK-FA, either they already foresee India ditching or reducing their sales of the PAK -FA or are using military sales to Pakistan as means to trap Indians on their terms. Add the current mess India has put herself into with depleting squadrons and delayed projects, Russia may see this as an opportunity to milk India of additional dollars. 

Having said all that, Russia continues to create a conflict of interest for itself since any weapon sold to China is already less appealing to India. Additionally, sale of weapons to Pakistan will mean even fewer sales and a very angry India. 

Furthermore, all is not well between China and Russia as its made out to be. Russia is in China's camp since it has no other options. It has also been burnt before with its designs copied but China has also become very self sufficient in design and development of fighter aircraft and Russia knows China is already competing in its market. Pakistan is an interesting case since it will still continue to see China as the better partner so the sale of weaponry to PAK is already challenged by its other partner and Pak can never ring its cash registers like India did.

At the end of the day, every country looks out for its own interests. In the Russian-China camp, China is already the dominating partner but also a competitor. Even for Russia India can be the country that keeps China busy or engaged so India still will remain important to Russia in the big game.

So does Russia not see all of this? IMHO it does and I feel Pakistan is being used as a bait for something it wants from India. My opinion, feel free to disagree.

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## New World

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> As far as training against Mig29's is concerned do not know exactly where PAF has been conduction training but in the past some aircraft were flown to evaluate these aircraft. Indonesia might be the place where PAF pilots flew and exercised against Mig-29.


this is what i want to know about mig-29..

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## gau8av

Tameem said:


> USSR/Russia almost went to War with US on behalf of India in 71 and on Russian Issues India's replies are....they are not over concerns....wow!!


haan yaar, bhot bada dhoka kar dia Roos ke saath Hinduo ne, ab roos mard e momin pakistani mulk se dosti kar ke India se badla lega.


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## Tameem

Trisonics said:


> So does Russia not see all of this? IMHO it does and I feel Pakistan is being used as a bait for something it wants from India. My opinion, feel free to disagree.



For your theory to succeeds, Putin's Russia turns out to be a *bluffer* rather than a man of his words and a trust-able ally. An aspects it never labeled in past history ever.


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## nadeemkhan110

*Shenyang FC-31 fighter performance 'leaked' online*

Shenyang FC-31 fighter performance 'leaked' online


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## Ind4Ever

abdulbarijan said:


> I get your point, but I disagree on the basis of the following points:-
> 
> -*The so called "denial" wasn't a denial to begin with*, the news report which was not Russian, but an Indian media house quoting Russian Embassy in India stating that it would not take any steps that would be "detrimental to the security of India" -- leaving that part up for the beholder to translate and understand... what exactly encompasses "steps that might be detrimental to the security of India" -- To Russia with the IAF having 200+ SU-30 MKI ... selling 2-3 squadrons of SU-35 might not be "detrimental to the security of India" ...
> 
> -Secondly, *at no point, did the statement from the Russian embassy negated that the reports on Sputnik quoting their Deputy FM were false ...*
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
> 
> Can you please provide where this report explicitly states that what sputnik reported was false or that the talks for SU-35 with Pakistan are not taking place ...
> 
> -Lastly, the IHS Janes report was the last report on the matter (18th September) which confirmed the talks from the Pakistani side, the Russian side has two quotes, both previously stated & linked ... where Ilya Kramink and the Deputy FM of Russia said that "Pakistan is a potential customer" and "talks are on" respectively..



Brother you are very much carried away to begin with. If don't want to belive zee news an reputed Indian news media which actually posted what is said but be source of Press trust India which says Russian embassy saying so or what ever it up to u. Search what is PTI and reputation as you will come to know why you can trust them. I don't want to spoil your surprise here. 

Secondly coming to your secondly point. I must say Russia on that interaction made it very clear . Read the article once again an the point the Russian embassy official stressed up on. That was the last response from Russia . Till now no other response. 

Thirdly on your Thirdly point As they made their point very clear in my secondly point there is no need to keep replaying on articles keeps proping up on regular basis. 

Fourthly my all Russians and Pakistani officials said was that talks took place. 

Fifth to explain my Fourthly point here is my 5th and most important aspect. Which is I like quote as an example. Let's imagine Modi on his trip to us put an request to Obama . Requesting Sign and ICBM in one on one talks . Or even B2 bombers. They will discuss the point of view on both sides . 

And later Modi or PMO source conforms of talks on b2 or SSGN or ICBM took place. Because it actually took place but without any conclusion. And this news writers goes bizarre on this news giving different kind of opinions here and there for their own business benefits isn't? So US will confirm the news that talks took place. And some ministers a say source of Mod leaks the details the talks are on. As diplomatic answers between high level delegations won't be No or Never. 

This is what happened in su35 deal too. I will belive once Russian Mod or Pakistan MOD gives official statements. Till then it's gonna be very embarrassing for PAF as now what as created is insecurity of present capabilities as you already came to conclusion that you need su35 to take on superior IAF . This I belive really uncalled for . Russia won't lose 100 billions for 1 billion . And Pakistan won't be ready or practically impossible to spend huge chunk of its money into small fleet of su35 which won't make any difference against superior IAF with 270 MKI. Which is counter productive. 


Still am not saying it's impossible AL am saying is its possibility is very thin and gain is very little but loss is huge for both. It don't make sense at all. May be China Wil arm twist Pakistan and pull diplomatic coup with Russians. 

So I prefer to wait and watch

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Skywalker

shaheenmissile said:


> Call me. I lost my phone and with that all numbers.


Same here, wud ring u.


----------



## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> be my guest


You are our guest now ,& I can bet you will be again when the moment will come ?



Ind4Ever said:


> Brother you are very much carried away to begin with. If don't want to belive zee news an reputed Indian news media which actually posted what is said but be source of Press trust India which says Russian embassy saying so or what ever it up to u. Search what is PTI and reputation as you will come to know why you can trust them. I don't want to spoil your surprise here.
> 
> Secondly coming to your secondly point. I must say Russia on that interaction made it very clear . Read the article once again an the point the Russian embassy official stressed up on. That was the last response from Russia . Till now no other response.
> 
> Thirdly on your Thirdly point As they made their point very clear in my secondly point there is no need to keep replaying on articles keeps proping up on regular basis.
> 
> Fourthly my all Russians and Pakistani officials said was that talks took place.
> 
> Fifth to explain my Fourthly point here is my 5th and most important aspect. Which is I like quote as an example. Let's imagine Modi on his trip to us put an request to Obama . Requesting Sign and ICBM in one on one talks . Or even B2 bombers. They will discuss the point of view on both sides .
> 
> And later Modi or PMO source conforms of talks on b2 or SSGN or ICBM took place. Because it actually took place but without any conclusion. And this news writers goes bizarre on this news giving different kind of opinions here and there for their own business benefits isn't? So US will confirm the news that talks took place. And some ministers a say source of Mod leaks the details the talks are on. As diplomatic answers between high level delegations won't be No or Never.
> 
> This is what happened in su35 deal too. I will belive once Russian Mod or Pakistan MOD gives official statements. Till then it's gonna be very embarrassing for PAF as now what as created is insecurity of present capabilities as you already came to conclusion that you need su35 to take on superior IAF . This I belive really uncalled for . Russia won't lose 100 billions for 1 billion . And Pakistan won't be ready or practically impossible to spend huge chunk of its money into small fleet of su35 which won't make any difference against superior IAF with 270 MKI. Which is counter productive.
> 
> 
> Still am not saying it's impossible AL am saying is its possibility is very thin and gain is very little but loss is huge for both. It don't make sense at all. May be China Wil arm twist Pakistan and pull diplomatic coup with Russians.
> 
> So I prefer to wait and watch


All of your post is no Pakistan will not get any of SUs from Russia & it will embrass Pakistan ?
That's the mind set all of Indians on PDF nothing new , why don't you guys just keep quite & wait for your turn instead of lecturing us?
Next time don't post at least ?lolzz
Just practice what you preach ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> check my previous comment


I don't need to, I was merely replying _*specifically to your post #2333*_ which was...


Ind4Ever said:


> India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese asserts


And I'd like to enlighten you with a reminder that India is signing up to SCO next year. What does that mean for India, if anything? Well we'll see where India's loyalties lie.


----------



## Ind4Ever

batmannow said:


> You are our guest now ,& I can bet you will be again when the moment will come ?
> 
> 
> All of your post is no Pakistan will not get any of SUs from Russia & it will embrass Pakistan ?
> That's the mind set all of Indians on PDF nothing new , why don't you guys just keep quite & wait for your turn instead of lecturing us?
> Next time don't post at least ?lolzz
> Just practice what you preach ?



OK I don't want to intrupt your party . Pakistan is getting Su 35 



Khanivore said:


> I don't need to, I was merely replying _*specifically to your post #2333*_ which was...
> 
> And I'd like to enlighten you with a reminder that India is signing up to SCO next year. What does that mean for India, if anything? Well we'll see where India's loyalties lie.



How does it even matters for this topic?


----------



## batmannow

Ind4Ever said:


> OK I don't want to intrupt your party . Pakistan is getting Su 35
> 
> 
> 
> How does it even matters for this topic?


Thanks keep enjoying with us ?lolzz


----------



## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> But check this
> *PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist*
> 
> I can't find this source either which is weird it's now vanished .


I tried to find a Su-35 denial from PAF via Reuters journalist on google news. *Nothing*. Perhaps you know better how to find this denial?


----------



## Side-Winder

Enjoy 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153346709322663

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Ind4Ever

Khanivore said:


> I tried to find a Su-35 denial from PAF via Reuters journalist on google news. *Nothing*. Perhaps you know better how to find this denial?



Now read previous comments from where you left . That might help you . Am not gonna repeat it again and again. Su35 coming to Pakistan ... Will this make you happy?



Side-Winder said:


> Enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153346709322663


Yo was is it?



batmannow said:


> Thanks keep enjoying with us ?lolzz


You too. Rock on brother. It's party time


----------



## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> How does it even matters for this topic?


 Are you feeling OK? Sounds like you're so overworked on this Su-35 issue that you failed to see that my SCO comment was in reply to your post #2333: see below


Ind4Ever said:


> India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . *We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese asserts*





Ind4Ever said:


> Now read previous comments from where you left . That might help you . Am not gonna repeat it again and again. Su35 coming to Pakistan ... Will this make you happy?


You said the source is lost. Why all the jibber jabber then?


----------



## Ind4Ever

Khanivore said:


> Are you feeling OK? Sounds like you're so overworked on this Su-35 issue that you failed to see that my SCO comment was in reply to your post #2333: see below
> 
> 
> 
> You said the source is lost. Why all the jibber jabber then?


I got your point but I still don't get it. How it's even connected to this deal ? 

Please explain



Khanivore said:


> Are you feeling OK? Sounds like you're so overworked on this Su-35 issue that you failed to see that my SCO comment was in reply to your post #2333: see below
> 
> 
> 
> You said the source is lost. Why all the jibber jabber then?


I got your point but I still don't get it. How it's even connected to this deal ? 

Please explain



Khanivore said:


> Are you feeling OK? Sounds like you're so overworked on this Su-35 issue that you failed to see that my SCO comment was in reply to your post #2333: see below
> 
> 
> 
> You said the source is lost. Why all the jibber jabber then?



No thanks to the chap here. Now I got it. 

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News 
On my point 3 and on point 2 u need to check others comments aswell


----------



## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> I got your point but I still don't get it. How it's even connected to this deal ?
> 
> Please explain
> 
> I got your point but I still don't get it. How it's even connected to this deal ?
> 
> Please explain


*Are you trolling?

You made an off-topic comment and now you're questioning me about my reply? Let me once again remind you:

*


Ind4Ever said:


> India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . *We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese* asserts


*

India will align with the West and encircle China, as "per plan", according to you. My reply was to remind of India's upcoming SCO membership. Do you know what SCO is? Do you understand me?

Stick with what you said and cut with the stupid response "How it's even connected to this deal ?".*

*@Icarus @Oscar @waz*


----------



## Ind4Ever

Khanivore said:


> *Are you trolling?
> 
> You made an off-topic comment and now you're questioning me about my reply? Let me once again remind you:*


* 
Are u serious ? Who went off topic . It's you who is bringing in SCO into su35,paf thread. I don't even wanted to reply on SCO off topic. Even now 




India will align with the West and encircle China, as "per plan", according to you. My reply was to remind of India's upcoming SCO membership. Do you know what SCO is? Do you understand me?

Stick with what you said and cut with the stupid response "How it's even connected to this deal ?".

Click to expand...

*


> *@Icarus @Oscar @waz*



Dude I explained possibility to sell su35 to Pakistan by Russia. Is it not connected with this ? Are u even aware Russia and India are allies?


----------



## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> Brother you are very much carried away to begin with. If don't want to belive zee news an reputed Indian news media which actually posted what is said but be source of Press trust India which says Russian embassy saying so or what ever it up to u. Search what is PTI and reputation as you will come to know why you can trust them. I don't want to spoil your surprise here.
> 
> Secondly coming to your secondly point. I must say Russia on that interaction made it very clear . Read the article once again an the point the Russian embassy official stressed up on. That was the last response from Russia . Till now no other response.
> 
> Thirdly on your Thirdly point As they made their point very clear in my secondly point there is no need to keep replaying on articles keeps proping up on regular basis.
> 
> Fourthly my all Russians and Pakistani officials said was that talks took place.
> 
> Fifth to explain my Fourthly point here is my 5th and most important aspect. Which is I like quote as an example. Let's imagine Modi on his trip to us put an request to Obama . Requesting Sign and ICBM in one on one talks . Or even B2 bombers. They will discuss the point of view on both sides .
> 
> And later Modi or PMO source conforms of talks on b2 or SSGN or ICBM took place. Because it actually took place but without any conclusion. And this news writers goes bizarre on this news giving different kind of opinions here and there for their own business benefits isn't? So US will confirm the news that talks took place. And some ministers a say source of Mod leaks the details the talks are on. As diplomatic answers between high level delegations won't be No or Never.
> 
> This is what happened in su35 deal too. I will belive once Russian Mod or Pakistan MOD gives official statements. Till then it's gonna be very embarrassing for PAF as now what as created is insecurity of present capabilities as you already came to conclusion that you need su35 to take on superior IAF . This I belive really uncalled for . Russia won't lose 100 billions for 1 billion . And Pakistan won't be ready or practically impossible to spend huge chunk of its money into small fleet of su35 which won't make any difference against superior IAF with 270 MKI. Which is counter productive.
> 
> 
> Still am not saying it's impossible AL am saying is its possibility is very thin and gain is very little but loss is huge for both. It don't make sense at all. May be China Wil arm twist Pakistan and pull diplomatic coup with Russians.
> 
> So I prefer to wait and watch



Interesting points ... however ... I already knew of PTI being the main reporter here .. however the report _*never made it to any defense related news outlet or a trusted journal like say Sputnik or Janes .. Wouldn't it be headline news that Russia officially denies the whole SU-35 fiasco ... yet no news like that came out .*_.. even the one quoted by you as a defense is a _*vague statement*_ which can be interpreted in many ways as I have shown you previously ...

-Your entire case is that Russia is not willing to sell Pakistan the SU-35 based on your news which never even puts it in explicit terms ... while the other side has 2 different sources (Janes/Sputnik) with a niche in defense with international repute saying the exact opposite quoting from the potential customer and the potential supplier ...

The other point you bring up right here is that because the Russian's so called "last response" was that they will not take any steps detrimental to Indian security ... hence that means Russia is not willing to give the super flanker to Pakistan ... but it is worth while to mention here that the news of Sputnik (which reported that Pakistan is in talks with Russia for SU-35) said that the cooperation between Pakistan and Russia will not be threatening relations with India ...

Again ... how many defense based websites quoted that piece of Indian media except a few Indian defense forums .. I haven't seen Janes quoting it .. neither have I seen Sputnik quoting it ... *Infact, regarding your point of "diplomats will never say no" ... let me refresh your memory where in 2012 the same "Press Trust of India" was quoting the Deputy Prime minister as saying ;*

*"You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face," Rogozin told reporters here when asked if Russia would supply arms to Pakistan."*


lets look* today *then,

-confirmed *deal of MI-35's*
-talks of *Pakistan being a potential customer of SU-35*
-Pakistan now *directly importing RD-93 from Russia*
-PAF being *offered J-10B with the AL-31** ..*.

Bottom line ... _should people trust Indian news which has been proven wrong before ... over Janes or Sputnik which are of international repute and are arguably the best in the niche of defense magazines/journals etc._ _*The so called denial wasn't even worth mentioning in the follow up article of Sputnik which instead went and reported what Janes did with the PAF official confirming the talks ...*_

So if you want to prove your point .. you will have to prove that PTI is much more credible then Janes or Sputnik International ... and that too in defense dealings ...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> No thanks to the chap here. Now I got it.
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
> On my point 3 and on point 2 u need to check others comments aswell


That's not Reuters and nor is it PAF's denial regarding Su-35 which you specifically referred to. You're beating around the bush and are avoiding to backup your original claim. *By the way*, remember the "spit on my face" comment by the Russian official? Here's some reading for you: "spit on my face"


----------



## Ind4Ever

Khanivore said:


> *Are you trolling?
> 
> You made an off-topic comment and now you're questioning me about my reply? Let me once again remind you:*


* 
Are u serious ? Who went off topic . It's you who is bringing in SCO into su35,paf thread. I don't even wanted to reply on SCO off topic. Even now 




India will align with the West and encircle China, as "per plan", according to you. My reply was to remind of India's upcoming SCO membership. Do you know what SCO is? Do you understand me?

Stick with what you said and cut with the stupid response "How it's even connected to this deal ?".

Click to expand...

*


> *@Icarus @Oscar @waz*



Dude I explained possibility to sell su35 to Pakistan by Russia. Is it not connected with this ? Are u even aware Russia and India are allie



Khanivore said:


> That's not Reuters and nor is it PAF's denial regarding Su-3
> 
> 5 which you specifically referred to. You're beating around the bush and are avoiding to backup your original claim. *By the way*, remember the "spit on my face" comment by the Russian official? Here's some reading for you: "spit on my face"



Last Russian response 

Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News

Rest I explained my position already


----------



## Khanivore

Ind4Ever said:


> *
> Are u serious ? Who went off topic . It's you who is bringing in SCO into su35,paf thread. I don't even wanted to reply on SCO off topic. Even now*
> 
> Dude I explained possibility to sell su35 to Pakistan by Russia. Is it not connected with this ? Are u even aware Russia and India are allies?


Are you even aware of your post #2333 ?


Ind4Ever said:


> India should keep calm let them make their moves. It's time to test our diplomatic ties with the Russians . It's gonna be terrible mistake . *We will move ahead as per our planned road map which is to alignment with the West and encircle Chinese* asserts


You are seriously pushing it.



Ind4Ever said:


> Last Russian response
> 
> Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia | Zee News
> 
> Rest I explained my position already


Not worth its salt. The Russians never kept their word! RD-93s and Mi-35s happened with more to come!


----------



## monitor

* Pakistan-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35 jets underway *


 Agencies 
September 21, 2015
Be First To Comment
Tweet







Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating the ‘largest defence deal’ between the two countries.


“The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 Flanker-E fighter jets from Russia, but a final decision is yet to be announced,” the HIS said, according to a senior government official.


The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M Hind E helicopters to Pakistan.


“It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan.


“Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.


Pakistan currently relies on a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese manufactured F-7s and the JF-17 Thunder, which is co-manufactured by Pakistan and China.


Last month, Russia agreed to sell state-of-the-art Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan in what is seen as a ‘paradigm shift’ in Moscow’s policy to increase defence cooperation between the two countries.


“An agreement was signed between Pakistan and Russian authorities in Rawalpindi for the purchase of four Mi-35 helicopters,” a senior military official had said on the condition of anonymity.


Moscow for long ignored Islamabad in a bid to please its long-term ally New Delhi. But as a result of India’s growing tilt towards United States, Russia has now started expanding its cooperation with Pakistan.


For its part, Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington.


----------



## Ind4Ever

Khanivore said:


> Are you even aware of your post #2333 ?
> 
> You are seriously pushing it.
> 
> 
> Not worth its salt. The Russians never kept their word! RD-93s and Mi-35s happened with more to come!



If that makes you feel better then go along with it and enjoy mate. That's the way to for Hakuna Matata. 

1)I still don't get it what SCO has to do with su35 sales 

2) yes of course it's a open secret India will go ahead with west to corner Chinese aggression. If you think it's silly. Then so be it . Who cares 

3) That's upto Russia to sell su35 or not no matter what you want from them. 

Case closed . I as a reasonable person will wait and see . No one know what will happen. All I can say is on what I see



monitor said:


> * Pakistan-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35 jets underway *
> 
> 
> Agencies
> September 21, 2015
> Be First To Comment
> Tweet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Russia are in the process of negotiating the ‘largest defence deal’ between the two countries.
> 
> 
> “The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 Flanker-E fighter jets from Russia, but a final decision is yet to be announced,” the HIS said, according to a senior government official.
> 
> 
> The senior government official’s remarks come in the wake of Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s and a recent agreement for provision of Mi-35M Hind E helicopters to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> “It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> “Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.
> 
> 
> Pakistan currently relies on a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese manufactured F-7s and the JF-17 Thunder, which is co-manufactured by Pakistan and China.
> 
> 
> Last month, Russia agreed to sell state-of-the-art Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan in what is seen as a ‘paradigm shift’ in Moscow’s policy to increase defence cooperation between the two countries.
> 
> 
> “An agreement was signed between Pakistan and Russian authorities in Rawalpindi for the purchase of four Mi-35 helicopters,” a senior military official had said on the condition of anonymity.
> 
> 
> Moscow for long ignored Islamabad in a bid to please its long-term ally New Delhi. But as a result of India’s growing tilt towards United States, Russia has now started expanding its cooperation with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> For its part, Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington.



“It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan.


“Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.


Case closed. Another article in same rumours. Russia says it's not sure. 

Pakistan says it wants it 

So Russia offered su35 or insisting to buy 35 is shattered . 

Wise thing is to wait band watch as India's power play is not mentioned and Russias policy plan is up to them . As an Indian I reject it or even condemn it if sale happen. It's clear back stabbing by our trusted friend it's not a secret. I said summed it up I think


----------



## monitor

Ind4Ever said:


> Wise thing is to wait band watch as India's power play is not mentioned and Russias policy plan is up to them . As an Indian I reject it or even condemn it if sale happen. It's clear back stabbing by our trusted friend it's not a secret. I said summed it up I think


you are getting more advance pakfa and upgrading already a deadly beast SU-30mki so here nothing back stabbing . infact you back stab or make them annoyed by rejecting them in mmrca and attack heli deal then why you condemn the deal . if you can reject a 40 year old friend then why that friend can't sell few advance weapons to Pakistan ?


----------



## That Guy

batmannow said:


> @mods please let Mr that guy become the UN secretary general ?lolzz
> Sure , I'm wrong & the forum is wrong & the whole world is wrong ?lolzz
> Right Mr always right ?


No, only you. Most people on this forum find you ridiculous, and disagree with you.


----------



## monitor

*Russia eases weapons policy for Pakistan*
*By Z...*
News on Monday June 2 that Russia will ease its informal restrictions on selling Pakistan defence equipment is to be welcomed, as is the news that this may mean acquisition of the Mi-35 Hind. It is perhaps a result of the Russian reaction to the crises in Libya, Syria, and Ukraine, where it has responded by adopting a more pragmatic foreign policy in which it appears Pakistan cannot be ignored.

It is uncertain if this will mean a totally balanced Russian relationship with India (its erstwhile South Asian strategic partner) and Pakistan. That is probably not the case, but it likely means an end to the days when India was able to blackmail Russia into not supplying defence equipment to Pakistan. India is actively seeking to diversify away from a reliance on Russian arms, and though this may or may not be successful, a string of Indian defence deals with Western and Israeli companies at the expense of Russian ones means Moscow is less inclined to be swayed by Indian pressure. This is despite Indo-Russian defence collaboration projects such as PAKFA for which India is still the main financer. Indo-Russian defence collaboration is therefore likely to remain reasonably strong regardless of developments with Pakistan.

It is important to clarify that there was no formal embargo as such on the sale of Russian defence equipment to Pakistan, as direct sales of Mi-17 Hip helicopters, and indirect sales of Klimov RD-93 engines were previously made. However, there was reluctance to sell certain types of weaponry, so enquiries made by former COAS Gen Pervez Kayani for the sale of Mi-35s was neither accepted nor declined. At the time Pakistan was looking replace or supplement its aging Cobra fleet, and aimed to acquire the Turkish T129 (if onward supply of the US engines was cleared), or the AH-1Z (depending on Congressional approval). Sale of a more advanced Russian helicopter such as the Mi-28 Havoc may not have been forthcoming therefore, but the Mi-35 in the support role and especially for COIN and support of the special forces in COIN operations may have been less controversial for the Russians to have agreed to. With the change in policy, this deal may now go through. In this context whether the small number of grounded Mi-35s in Pakistan will be returned to service is unknown, but it has been an option that has been previously explored even if nothing resulted from it to date.

Russian defence equipment may not be as capable as some western equivalents, but it is robust, simple enough to operate, and more affordable, both to acquire and to support. Russian approval for defence sales may also help with Sino-Pakistani defence co-operation particularly in clearing the supply of Russian origin sub-systems in Chinese weapon systems. Therefore Pakistan may hope to directly purchase defence equipment such the Pantsir-S1 air defence system, RPG-29 anti-tank weapons (that could possibly be produced under license), and perhaps more Mi-17s. Indirect sales could namely be of the Saturn Al-31F turbofan that powers the FC-20 variant of the Chengdu J-10B that Pakistan may or may not acquire from China.

It is probable therefore that despite the very favourable Sino-Pakistani defence co-operation, Pakistan may look to Russia to acquire defence systems that China is not yet capable or ready of supplying even if the deals may not be very lucrative for Moscow.
credit to pakdef


----------



## abdulbarijan

Ind4Ever said:


> “It is too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms,” the official said highlighting Russia’s willingness to sell advanced military hardware to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> “Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory,’ the official revealed.
> 
> 
> Case closed. Another article in same rumours. Russia says it's not sure.
> 
> Pakistan says it wants it
> 
> So Russia offered su35 or insisting to buy 35 is shattered .
> 
> Wise thing is to wait band watch as India's power play is not mentioned and Russias policy plan is up to them . As an Indian I reject it or even condemn it if sale happen. It's clear back stabbing by our trusted friend it's not a secret. I said summed it up I think



Actually your right .. the case is closed .. Just not in your favor though ...

See it's not really rumors when it has the likes of a Deputy FM saying we are holding talks with XYZ for a possible sale/delivery of ABC, as a representative of the supplier and being reported by a well reputed Internationally known news outlet ...

It's not simply rumors when an analyst puts up a specific country as a "potential customer" ... It's not simply a rumor when that potential customer goes out and says that yes, the talks are taking place ...

The only piece of evidence the Indian side is able to conjure up is a vague statement not attributed to any person in the upper echelon of authority ... just stated as a statement from the embassy ... with as vague as a statement that one could possibly give ... and the report is not even deemed worthy to quote in follow up articles about the deal originating from Sputnik or Janes ... not to mention the same agency reported that Russia's deputy PM was saying things such as

*"You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face,"*

look today and Pakistan is importing RD-93 as the engine for the back bone of its airforce and purchasing MI-35's with orders potentially seeing expansion ... where Russia is ready to give us AL-31 on J-10 and is considering us a potential customer for SU-35 ...

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## Khanivore

abdulbarijan said:


> So if you want to prove your point .. you will have to prove that PTI is much more credible then Janes or Sputnik International ... and that too in defense dealings ...


Bro, @Ind4Ever says one thing backs it up with fake PTI nonsense. I'm still waiting for his Reuters piece which, according to him, alleges that PAF denies Su-35 talks, titled, "PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist".  Where is this piece? 



Ind4Ever said:


> If that makes you feel better then go along with it and enjoy mate. That's the way to for Hakuna Matata.
> 
> 1)I still don't get it what SCO has to do with su35 sales... (skipping rest of nonsense)
> 
> *Case closed* . I as a reasonable person will wait and see . No one know what will happen. All I can say is on what I see


It's a load of drivel. Is this the best you can come up with?  How old are you, 15? Do yourself and all of us a favor and take your froth-filled jibber jabber to some Indian forum. You're only trolling here.



abdulbarijan said:


> Actually your right .. the case is closed ... but not in your favor though ...

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## nadeemkhan110

monitor said:


> you are getting more advance pakfa and upgrading already a deadly beast SU-30mki so here nothing back stabbing . infact you back stab or make them annoyed by rejecting them in mmrca and attack heli deal then why you condemn the deal . if you can reject a 40 year old friend then why that friend can't sell few advance weapons to Pakistan ?


I agree
and look at pak china they are a unit PAKISTAN friend is CHINAs friend and China enemy is PAKISTANs enemy
eg: 
Source:Pakistan, China in pact to keep JF-17 tech away from US, India

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## abdulbarijan

Khanivore said:


> Bro, @Ind4Ever says one thing backs it up with fake PTI nonsense. I'm still waiting for his Reuters piece which, according to him, alleges that PAF denies Su-35 talks, titled, "PAF denies SU-35 negotiations and contracts: Reuters Journalist".  Where is this piece?
> 
> 
> It's a load of drivel. Is this the best you can come up with?  How old are you, 15? Do yourself and all of us a favor and take your froth-filled jibber jabber to some Indian forum. You're only trolling here.



Actually, there was no Reuters piece .. what happened was that a journalist said that according to his source in PAF, there was no SU-35 talks etc.... over TWITTER! .. and an Indian friend of ours actually did start an entire thread based on that tweet alone ... There hasn't been any tweets regarding the topic since then ... no response to the report by Janes etc.

My respected colleague, @Ind4Ever seems to believe that the credibility of this tweet is such that it can negate the reports coming out of Janes or Sputnik ... The same being case with the PTI (press trust of India) report ... which again ... was very vague and never even contradicted the claims of the deputy FM of Russia ...

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## ghauri05

Side-Winder said:


> Enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153346709322663


yaar jo b ho Sukhois ki shape bohht allaaaa he!!!


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## Khanivore

abdulbarijan said:


> Actually, there was no Reuters piece .. what happened was that a journalist said that according to his source in PAF, there was no SU-35 talks etc.... over TWITTER! .. and an Indian friend of ours actually did start an entire thread based on that tweet alone ... There hasn't been any tweets regarding the topic since then ... no response to the report by Janes etc.


Ah I see, thanks for updating me on this twitter episode, and I can see why @Ind4Ever would clutch onto this so desperately and refer to it as "Reuters" piece that so conveniently disappears then. 



abdulbarijan said:


> My respected colleague, @Ind4Ever seems to believe that the credibility of this tweet is such that it can negate the reports coming out of Janes or Sputnik ... The same being case with the PTI (press trust of India) report ... which again ... was very vague and never even contradicted the claims of the deputy FM of Russia ...


 I wondered why this piece regarding "spit on my face" was only found in Indian media. "Case closed".

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

New World said:


> Bro, i'm asking about mig-29... Did somewhere in the world paf pilots fly mig-29 like they are flying j-11 and su-30mkk in china??




Seriously, I don't have much information regarding PAF pilots flying Mig-29 anywhere in the world because its potential buyer is India and obviously with India, it can't happen.


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## Super Falcon

Mark Sien said:


> By Bilal Khan
> 
> Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.
> By Bilal Khan
> 
> As with the Yak-130 story, there are reports floating around claiming that Pakistan may be interested in the Sukhoi Su-35, Russia’s current 4+/4.5 generation fighter. The short of my point is that it is very unlikely that Pakistan will pick up the Su-35. At the same time however, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) not acquiring the Su-35 does not necessarily mean that Pakistan will not acquire other high-value systems from Russia. Yes, Russian-Pakistani defence relations are at an all-time high, especially with Moscow’s willingness to sell Pakistan RD-93 turbofans and Mi-35 assault helicopters, but it is important to manage expectations.
> 
> It is no secret that Pakistan’s purchase of the Mi-35 was seen as a major milestone for Pakistani-Russian commercial defence ties, especially since the Mi-35 (despite the Pakistan Army’s requirement for using it as part of its counter-insurgency efforts) is at heart an ‘offensive’ system. Perhaps more significant was Russia’s willingness to sell the RD-93 turbofan, which powers the JF-17, an increasingly vital pillar of Pakistan’s defensive and offensive strategies against external powers. There really is no room for Russia to claim that its arms-transfers to Pakistan are innocuous to India. Thus, if the PAF was genuinely interested and able to purchase it, then I am sure the Russians would sell the Su-35 to the PAF.
> 
> But herein lies the problem, the PAF is *not *interested in the Su-35. Yes, there have been some thoughtful calls on the part of many enthusiasts and even experts for the PAF (or even Pakistan Navy!) to buy the Su-35, or at least some kind of Flanker (e.g. the Chinese J-11B/D). The rationale stems in part from the fact that the Su-35 is a formidable long-range fighter with considerable payload. For long-range strike and maritime patrol operations, a fighter of the Flanker’s nature would, without doubt, be a valuable asset. Even the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI presents a real and serious problem for the PAF, and even with the advances coming up with JF-17 and the induction of the Block-52+/MLU, the Flanker is a major challenge.
> 
> At the same time however, the Su-35 has its drawbacks, and those drawbacks will be of particular concern to the PAF. The Flanker-series has shown itself to be a maintenance challenge, and even on a good day, a fighter as large and powerful as the Su-35 would require considerable resources in servicing and flight. As far as the PAF is concerned, the Su-35 would be a mismatch that could end up costing the PAF more than actually benefitting it. Do not construe this point for suggesting that the PAF does not need fighters with additional range and payload (compared to the JF-17), it does, but this fighter needs to be feasible enough to operate. What would be the point of possessing such a high-value asset if it cannot be flown regularly enough due to mounting maintenance and operational costs? And let us assume the PAF can regularly fly Su-35s, what about the opportunity costs of spending that extra money?
> 
> As far as I am concerned, talk about the PAF looking into the Su-35 is a non-starter. In fact, at this stage anyways, the PAF is probably looking into the Shenyang J-31 as the nucleus of a possible long-range flight element. In essence, the J-31 probably sit in the comfortable middle between the Su-35 and JF-17 in terms of improving upon the latter’s range and payload, but avoiding the former’s maintenance overhead. Yes, this is not happening any time soon, but let us be frank, the PAF is not in a position to immediately induct such platforms anyways. Pakistan’s general economic woes and internal inefficiencies aside, the country spent nearly $2 billion U.S on its recent campaign in Waziristan. It is difficult to expect to see the induction of an entirely new fighter type this soon.
> 
> With all that said, there is still significant room for growth in Pakistan’s relations with Russia. While the PAF is unlikely to acquire the Su-35 or Yak-130, there might be a chance to see it pursue Russian surface-to-air (SAM) missiles such as the S-300. The PAF has had a longstanding requirement for long-range SAMs and has made some attempts over the past decade or so to acquire this capability. If there were a chance for a truly landmark deal between Russia and Pakistan, then the S-300 would be it, though there is nothing at this stage to suggest that this is happening, unfortunately. Besides that, we can comfortably expect additional Mi-35, Mi-171 and perhaps even RD-93MA for use on the JF-17.
> 
> Su-35 to Pakistan? Probably Not.


Completely disagree with pathetic justification of maintanance issue 

If u fear a maintanace issues than im sorry this state of mind will lead us to defeat just the sake of maintanace we wont buy SU 35 which is need of hour

J 31 needs a decade to be operational until than we sit like ducks 

J 31 dont have maintanace issue but SU 35 has what rubbish when u defend ur country heart and sould these cheap pathetic justification blows my mind iff

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## New World

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> Seriously, I don't have much information regarding PAF pilots flying Mig-29 anywhere in the world because its potential buyer is India and obviously with India, it can't happen.


mig-29 is being used by Algeria, Azerbaijan, Sudan, Syria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Myanmar, North Korea, Uzbekistan, these countries have good defense relation with Pakistan..

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## black-hawk_101

Any Chances of PAA selling AH-1s and buying these:
50 Mi-35s for Paramilitary and SSGs
60-90 Z-10P in coming 10 years all 3 blocks (China might provide all of them for FREE coz of CPEC)
30 AH-1 Vipers


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## elitepilot09

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Chances of PAA selling AH-1s and buying these:
> 50 Mi-35s for Paramilitary and SSGs
> 60-90 Z-10P in coming 10 years all 3 blocks (China might provide all of them for FREE coz of CPEC)
> 30 AH-1 Vipers



I might have to deal with severe repercussion for this, but on behalf of the entire PDF community: Please shut the F U C K up.

Someone had to say it.

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> No, only you. Most people on this forum find you ridiculous, and disagree with you.


Disagreement means , I am not human & only you are without any wrongs leterliy a god ?lolzz
I mean thats ridiculous thinking ?isn't it ?
I think you should look at the thanks received by me , so you can understand that with many dislikes ?
There are peoples who likes my way of thinking ?
Look at that ,& be jealous ?
Mr ,fake god ?lolzz



Ind4Ever said:


> Now read previous comments from where you left . That might help you . Am not gonna repeat it again and again. Su35 coming to Pakistan ... Will this make you happy?
> 
> 
> Yo was is it?
> 
> 
> You too. Rock on brother. It's party time


Pls stop living in the world of denial & instead , get brith in the world of possibilities ?

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

New World said:


> mig-29 is being used by Algeria, Azerbaijan, Sudan, Syria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Myanmar, North Korea, Uzbekistan, these countries have good defense relation with Pakistan..




But we don't carry regular exercises with them mate, that's the point you need to get. Any of these countries is not a best friend of Pakistan nor the original manufacturer of Migs like China is of J-11s.


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## zebra7

Ind4Ever said:


> Check my above quote. Source of Russian denying any 35 sales to Pakistan. My point 3) and at least my point 2 also at least published once before taking it down. Now where is your source of Russia proposing Pakistan it's Ufo fighter 35


Janab zarwan had some secret source from which he gets his all these information and he is not only correct but also very very reliable and there is no point of discussion regarding the authenticity of the Source or its form, color, size, weight, and his language and the medium though which communicate.

zarwan sir I am with you.


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## batmannow

zebra7 said:


> Janab zarwan had some secret source from which he gets his all these information and he is not only correct but also very very reliable and there is no point of discussion regarding the authenticity of the Source or its form, color, size, weight, and his language and the medium though which communicate.
> 
> zarwan sir I am with you.


Kiya baat hai , moodi jee , jindabad ?lolzz

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## abdulbarijan

Super Falcon said:


> Completely disagree with pathetic justification of maintanance issue
> 
> If u fear a maintanace issues than im sorry this state of mind will lead us to defeat just the sake of maintanace we wont buy SU 35 which is need of hour
> 
> J 31 needs a decade to be operational until than we sit like ducks
> 
> J 31 dont have maintanace issue but SU 35 has what rubbish when u defend ur country heart and sould these cheap pathetic justification blows my mind iff



I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;

-Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
-Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )

_*This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do*_ ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...

Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...

If we do make the decision to go for it, _*the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface *_ .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so *what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get* ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...

Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

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## batmannow

abdulbarijan said:


> I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;
> 
> -Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
> -Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )
> 
> _*This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do*_ ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...
> 
> Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...
> 
> If we do make the decision to go for it, _*the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface *_ .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so *what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get* ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...
> 
> Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...


But the balance is with more we are going to get them cause we can't get the same brid capabilities wise from any other producer in the world ?
& with Chinese experiences with flankers our mentenice issue would be relsolved at least 75% ?


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## aliyusuf

abdulbarijan said:


> ...there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...




I may be wrong in the way I am looking at this or may be over looking something ... but one can assume that among the reasons for not going for these planes, once the initial overture has been made, would be ...

The payment and delivery schedule not suiting PAF
Level and promptness of spare parts availability and maintenance support ... not matching PAF requirements
Down-rated radar and / or sub-systems ... Irbis-E or top of the line missiles or Same EW suite not being offered
Unacceptable strings being attached to the deal or to the usage of the plane.
Other than that I don't see any reason for this to fail (unless of course the Indian pressure prevails).
Because at this level of interactions the general idea about the acquisition cost and the cost of operation must have been pre-determined by the PAF (provided that the PAF initiated the request) ... because one doesn't go into these sort of talks totally clueless ... homework is done before hand ... and if the PAF made the request then it had a general idea about what it was going to cost them and apparently they did make request so therefore they must be ok with it.


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## abdulbarijan

batmannow said:


> But the balance is with more we are going to get them cause we can't get the same brid capabilities wise from any other producer in the world ?
> & with Chinese experiences with flankers our mentenice issue would be relsolved at least 75% ?



That would be correct, no jet currently "available" to us would be more capable then a SU-35 .... but the underlying need which the jet is supposed to fulfill can be done through other means ... albeit not as effectively, considering what the jet offers today ... but alot more cost effectively though ... But does PAF want to get cost effective with the protection of THE MOST IMPORTANT economic asset of the country ... like I said .. too many variables to say anything with confidence and it is likely that this stays that way till a deal is reached and reported ...

As far as the flankers maintenance goes, one can't put a number on it ... but remember China is also procuring the Super Flankers ... so maintenance wise one can say that it is possible to get spares etc. from China ...




aliyusuf said:


> I may be wrong in the way I am looking at this or may be over looking something ... but one can assume that among the reasons for not going for these planes, once the initial overture has been made, would be ...
> 
> The payment and delivery schedule not suiting PAF
> Level and promptness of spare parts availability and maintenance support ... not matching PAF requirements
> Down-rated radar and / or sub-systems ... Irbis-E or top of the line missiles or Same EW suite not being offered
> Unacceptable strings being attached to the deal or to the usage of the plane.
> Other than that I don't see any reason for this to fail (unless of course the Indian pressure prevails).
> Because at this level of interactions the general idea about the acquisition cost and the cost of operation must have been pre-determined by the PAF (provided that the PAF initiated the request) ... because one doesn't go into these sort of talks totally clueless ... homework is done before hand ... and if the PAF made the request then it had a general idea about what it was going to cost them and apparently they did make request so therefore they must be ok with it.



Good point, it is also worth mentioning that we did have some experience on the flankers in the Shaheen exercises, or there were rumors of a Pakistani pilot flying a flanker in the PLAN ... It is completely correct that one doesn't get in to the negotiations blind, but it is also worth mentioning that one cant simply access alot of information before hand to make a swift decision like in the case of a normal transaction ... You have to get to the stages of trials etc. to get that information and finally deciding ... I found that third point of yours quite interesting, because most likely changes will take place ... lets look around because we're not the only customers China is also planning on getting these bad boys ... So most likely we'll be getting the same configuration as that of China ...
As with any sort of PAF transaction, things will go quiet for a while with a few fillers from some insiders if they are authorized to spill some of the beans ... and only then can a discussion like this take place with some certainty ...

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## batmannow

abdulbarijan said:


> That would be correct, no jet currently "available" to us would be more capable then a SU-35 .... but the underlying need which the jet is supposed to fulfill can be done through other means ... albeit not as effectively, considering what the jet offers today ... but alot more cost effectively though ... But does PAF want to get cost effective with the protection of THE MOST IMPORTANT economic asset of the country ... like I said .. too many variables to say anything with confidence and it is likely that this stays that way till a deal is reached and reported ...
> 
> As far as the flankers maintenance goes, one can't put a number on it ... but remember China is also procuring the Super Flankers ... so maintenance wise one can say that it is possible to get spares etc. from China ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point, it is also worth mentioning that we did have some experience on the flankers in the Shaheen exercises, or there were rumors of a Pakistani pilot flying a flanker in the PLAN ... It is completely correct that one doesn't get in to the negotiations blind, but it is also worth mentioning that one cant simply access alot of information before hand to make a swift decision like in the case of a normal transaction ... You have to get to the stages of trials etc. to get that information and finally deciding ... I found that third point of yours quite interesting, because most likely changes will take place ... lets look around because we're not the only customers China is also planning on getting these bad boys ... So most likely we'll be getting the same configuration as that of China ...
> As with any sort of PAF transaction, things will go quiet for a while with a few fillers from some insiders if they are authorized to spill some of the beans ... and only then can a discussion like this take place with some certainty ...


Agreed ,
& with Chinese having the flankers , I'm sure we will never face a kargill like situation again forever ?
& that's the mind set behind the whoke SU - DEAL & its the reason which makes it more visible to us ?
Plus its the perfect leader which can lead our F-16S & THUNDERS to hit the right targets ,& if something comes to stop them , SU -35 can take the challenge head on , with a space link to our Chinese stalite ?
Altogether deadly combination for anyone have bad designs on us ?


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## Shaheen786

yes we should just imagine how the capability of PAF increases with these beast in the hands trained pilots of PAF i really pray and would love to see it painted in PAF colors but we should need in good numbers to tackle india specially after they will get the raffale jets


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## Quwa

abdulbarijan said:


> I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;
> 
> -Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
> -Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )
> 
> _*This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do*_ ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...
> 
> Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...
> 
> If we do make the decision to go for it, _*the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface *_ .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so *what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get* ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...
> 
> Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...


PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.

But at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.

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## Imran Khan

Mark Sien said:


> PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.
> 
> But at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.


but sir it will be ok ? i mean pilots will have experience of tactics on which not flow much ?

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## alimobin memon

Last Samuri said:


> Pakistanis AND Indians LETS calm down.
> 
> LETS SEE WHAT UNFOLDS with the SU35 rumours.
> 
> I am pleasantly surprised at HOW MUCH EXCITMENT the Pakistanis have over a Flanker purchase
> 
> For decade we watch you Pakistanis tell us HOW CRAP THE RUSSIAN fighters are
> 
> Very interesting AND TELLING I think,
> 
> _The Flankers will cost alot more than what you guys have paid for a fighter in your history
> They will cost you twice the amount to service and fly of any current PAF fighter_.
> 
> But if by some miracle this actually happens YOU are acquiring a beast of a fighter and the Indians know as they swear by their MKI


I still would prefer any other fighter over russian fighters in terms of quality from the first day im against Su35 not because its better but because we are purchasing a super jet from a close ally of india. I'd rather invest in chinese 5th generation wait till they are available.


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## Super Falcon

abdulbarijan said:


> I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;
> 
> -Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
> -Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )
> 
> _*This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do*_ ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...
> 
> Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...
> 
> If we do make the decision to go for it, _*the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface *_ .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so *what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get* ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...
> 
> Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...


Fx car cant do job of corrolla most simple way it is to tell u yes corolla is a liitle expansive to maintain than FX car but in return corolla do the job this is why ratio of fx 1 and coroolla 10000 on street so for sake of sense prevails we need a jet which can fly higher faster carry more weapons and manuverability which paf lack in its entire fleet


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## aliyusuf

Even if the negotiations should proceed successfully for now ... a long ways to go and many stages and hurdles to overcome before these planes can become part of the PAF. Not the least, the Indian pressure to kill it altogether or water down the systems on offer.The first major hurdle is the Modi - Putin meeting later this year. Lets see how all this unfolds.

But what is interesting is that no matter if this particular deal happens or doesn't happen, it is now confirmed that the PAF is warming up to the idea of acquiring a heavy twin engined multirole fighter. That being the case and if push comes shove we can certainly look into J-11D with an AESA radar along with other goodies and the latest version of the WS-10 engine. Certainly a noteworthy option. Any qualms about China selling ... a so-called Flanker clone ... would no longer be holding this back from happening because Russia (in this case) has been approached first but the deal doesn't go through ... so no blame of encroaching on Russia's Flanker exports. This option would be safer ... less heavy on the pockets and with a lot of scope and possibilities for future enhancements and increase in numbers.


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## abdulbarijan

Mark Sien said:


> PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.
> 
> But *at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. *I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.



That is "THE" point .. and there can be various dimensions of what constitutes benefits in return for the costs ... eg. having closer ties to another world power besides China ... Infact it can also be a gateway for joint air exercises with the Russians ... so there are several things that constitute a gain, even if one were to completely gloss over what the platform has the capability to do ...
At the end of the day we're mere commentators ... it is PAF that has to make the decision and determine if the SU-35 is indeed the right fit for the job ...



Super Falcon said:


> Fx car cant do job of corrolla most simple way it is to tell u yes corolla is a liitle expansive to maintain than FX car but in return corolla do the job this is why ratio of fx 1 and coroolla 10000 on street so for sake of sense prevails we need a jet which can fly higher faster carry more weapons and manuverability which paf lack in its entire fleet



Well how about you go out in your corolla in one of the "bazars" with small and overcrowded roads ... Similarly ... a guy earning 100,000 a month may go for a corolla, but he will thoroughly search the market before he decides to spend his hard earned cash ... and if in the process he finds that a Honda City can do a similar job albeit not as effectively on the motorway ... but it is economical and is smaller then a corolla yet is comfortable etc. which fulfills his need for a family car, he might then go for a city over a corolla ...

Similarly when your talking about this deal ... it is the underlying need that needs fulfillment ... most of us simply advocate for say SU-35 or Rafale because the idea of SU-35 or Rafale in PAF is appealing ... however PAF being a professional organization will have to make sure if what we're getting fullfills our needs ... and if those needs can be fullfilled in other ways that happen to be more cost effective, they might go for that ... what strings etc. might be attached as @aliyusuf mentioned in his post will also be another important factor to look out for ...
So lets hold our horses and hope for the best ...



Super Falcon said:


> Bhai for thise roads we have fx like jf 17 and F 16 we need what we dont have we buy it and please read my post get some sense out of it
> 
> We already have fx for smalll roads time to buy corolla for highway so it carry more passangers at once
> 
> Similarly SU 35 CARRY MORE PAYLOAD MORE POWER MORE ALTITUDE and it is open sky
> 
> What F 16 cant do SU 35 can do
> 
> USAF was not stupid when it had F 16 yet went for F 15 F 22 so in war you need different capabilities in different scinerios of war
> 
> In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can
> 
> We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone
> 
> F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30



USAF didn't have two major factors to consider ..
-It was and is not dependent on any other nation for fighter aircrafts ..
-USAF can spend much more cash on fighter jets as it 's economy can support it...

And you have that chronologically wrong, USAF had F-15's first and then went for F-16's because of the affordability etc etc...

PAF on the other hand has to be extra cautious with the deal it makes because there is too much at stake ... and therefore my entire rant of whole need and purpose etc etc.Like I said before other options are also on the table and one has to be careful in what they go with ...
Remember F-16 saga ... everyone is so proud of it ... trucks had its paintings which are quite frankly insulting to good paintings ... but lets not forget what happened after the pressler amendment ... hence, alot of factors need to be looked at before jumping to a decision ...

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## I <3 PAK ARMY

It's a new era for PAF this deal should be reached to its final conclusion ...


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## Super Falcon

abdulbarijan said:


> That is "THE" point .. and there can be various dimensions of what constitutes benefits in return for the costs ... eg. having closer ties to another world power besides China ... Infact it can also be a gateway for joint air exercises with the Russians ... so there are several things that constitute a gain, even if one were to completely gloss over what the platform has the capability to do ...
> At the end of the day we're mere commentators ... it is PAF that has to make the decision and determine if the SU-35 is indeed the right fit for the job ...
> 
> 
> 
> Well how about you go out in your corolla in one of the "bazars" with small and overcrowded roads ... Similarly ... a guy earning 100,000 a month may go for a corolla, but he will thoroughly search the market before he decides to spend his hard earned cash ... and if in the process he finds that a Honda City can do a similar job albeit not as effectively on the motorway ... but it is economical and is smaller then a corolla yet is comfortable etc. which fulfills his need for a family car, he might then go for a city over a corolla ...
> 
> Similarly when your talking about this deal ... it is the underlying need that needs fulfillment ... most of us simply advocate for say SU-35 or Rafale because the idea of SU-35 or Rafale in PAF is appealing ... however PAF being a professional organization will have to make sure if what we're getting fullfills our needs ... and if those needs can be fullfilled in other ways that happen to be more cost effective, they might go for that ... what strings etc. might be attached as @aliyusuf mentioned in his post will also be another important factor to look out for ...
> So lets hold our horses and hope for the best ...


Bhai for thise roads we have fx like jf 17 and F 16 we need what we dont have we buy it and please read my post get some sense out of it

We already have fx for smalll roads time to buy corolla for highway so it carry more passangers at once 

Similarly SU 35 CARRY MORE PAYLOAD MORE POWER MORE ALTITUDE and it is open sky

What F 16 cant do SU 35 can do

USAF was not stupid when it had F 16 yet went for F 15 F 22 so in war you need different capabilities in different scinerios of war

In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can

We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone 

F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30

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## trident2010

I don't see why there is so much fuss about purchase of Su-35? Sooner or later PAF will have stealth/twin engine heavy aircrafts which IAF will simply deal with it. PAF will have max 5 squadrons of Su-35 whereas we already have 200+ Su-30 MKIs plus Mig-29s, Mirage 2000 etc. 

Russia will do its business keeping their benefit in mind so are we. We are going to upgrade all the Su-30 MKI to super Sukohi standard and thus making it equivalent or superior to export version of Su-35. I am not even talking about new MRCA or FGFA induction which will be accelerated once any such deal takes place with PAF. 

All this ofcourse provided that Russia choose to upset India and jeopardize defence deals worth billions of $$s it is having or will have in near future.


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## nadeemkhan110

alimobin memon said:


> I still would prefer any other fighter over russian fighters in terms of quality from the first day im against Su35 not because its better but because we are purchasing a super jet from a close ally of india. I'd rather invest in chinese 5th generation wait till they are available.


 Ok so PAF will wait 10 years for 5th gen Chinese jet and and then more 10 years for delivery
so PAF will wait 20 years for 5th gen jets and RUSSIA is creating Sukhoi/HAL FGFA for India What PAF will have to Do is to wait and wait let paf use outdated third gen jets
even Egypt Nigeria Indonesia are making their Air force strong.



Super Falcon said:


> Bhai for thise roads we have fx like jf 17 and F 16 we need what we dont have we buy it and please read my post get some sense out of it
> 
> We already have fx for smalll roads time to buy corolla for highway so it carry more passangers at once
> 
> Similarly SU 35 CARRY MORE PAYLOAD MORE POWER MORE ALTITUDE and it is open sky
> 
> What F 16 cant do SU 35 can do
> 
> USAF was not stupid when it had F 16 yet went for F 15 F 22 so in war you need different capabilities in different scinerios of war
> 
> In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can
> 
> We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone
> 
> F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30


 100% agree with you paf is only in a position to defend its self they cant or damage enemies position or bases even we don't have naval fighter jet like mig and su are v good for naval use


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## abdulbarijan

trident2010 said:


> I don't see why there is so much fuss about purchase of Su-35? Sooner or later PAF will have stealth/twin engine heavy aircrafts which IAF will simply deal with it. PAF will have max 5 squadrons of Su-35 whereas we already have 200+ Su-30 MKIs plus Mig-29s, Mirage 2000 etc.
> 
> Russia will do its business keeping their benefit in mind so are we. We are going to upgrade all the Su-30 MKI to super Sukohi standard and thus making it equivalent or superior to export version of Su-35. I am not even talking about new MRCA or FGFA induction which will be accelerated once any such deal takes place with PAF.
> 
> All this ofcourse provided that Russia choose to upset India and jeopardize defence deals worth billions of $$s it is having or will have in near future.



Keeping my skepticism aside for a bit ... lemme just give a couple of pointers ...

-The maximum number of SU-35's we will be looking for (if we decide for SU-35) would be around 2-3 squadrons .. nothing more then that ..

-The comparison of what IAF fields vs what the PAF fields does not tell the whole story because_ the conditions the IAF has to face ... versus the conditions PAF has to face are two different stories altogether_ ... PAF's main adversary is IAF ... while IAF has to face both PAF and PLAAF ..
So even in a war time situation, as a contingency it will have to field some of its strength towards China .. PAF on the other hand can go all out ...

Lastly, we know what the IAF has and plans with the Super Sukhoi upgrade ... *do you know the versions of the SU-35 we're going for ... what type of avionics/weappon systems/radars etc It'll have *because news flash SU-30 K and SU-30 MKI are completely in a different league ... similarly Chinese version of the SU-30 also features many differences from the SU-30 K which was initially offered to countries... and today we're seeing China focusing on next gen weaponry, you have an AESA onboard all the new fighters coming out .. be it JH-7B all the way to J-16 ..._* so let's not start pretending that IAF has a counter to everything without even knowing what PAF is getting .... *_

And while you talk of the fleet and the mix, just look at the sheer number of maintenance intensive jets that you field versus PAF, (talking about Mig-29/SU-30 MKI etc.) while PAF is looking for high availability from 4th generation jets that can negotiate any threat that IAF puts forward in JFT and F-16's and plans for higher ends in such numbers that maintenance doesn't become a headache ...

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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> Disagreement means , I am not human & only you are without any wrongs leterliy a god ?lolzz
> I mean thats ridiculous thinking ?isn't it ?
> I think you should look at the thanks received by me , so you can understand that with many dislikes ?
> There are peoples who likes my way of thinking ?
> Look at that ,& be jealous ?
> Mr ,fake god ?lolzz


First learn how to write basic english. There is a reason why you have so many negative ratings.


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> but sir it will be ok ? i mean pilots will have experience of tactics on which not flow much ?



Hi,

Once they reach their peak in training---then something like that may work----. But really---they are two different platforms---you cannot substitute one for the other----.

But the SU35 in itself is not enough-----we need a strike aircraft----.

Look at the enemy---3 times larger force than ours----and still has two varieties of deep strike aircraft---the Jaguar----the SU30----and then multirole aircraft as well---and to top that off---the SU30MKI to take the pure strike role as well air superiority.

So---basically---2 heavy aircrafts to fight against a puny little force-----. And we are not taking into account the M2K's at all or MIG 29's.

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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Once they reach their peak in training---then something like that may work----. But really---they are two different platforms---you cannot substitute one for the other----.
> 
> But the SU35 in itself is not enough-----we need a strike aircraft----.
> 
> Look at the enemy---3 times larger force than ours----and still has two varieties of deep strike aircraft---the Jaguar----the SU27----and then multirole aircraft as well---and to top that off---the SU30MKI to take the pure strike role as well.
> 
> So---basically---3 heavy aircrafts to fight against a puny little force-----.


sir we can not match one by one to themand IAF have su-27 ?
and abut jaguar i did not consider it a heavy fighter abut heavy fighters like mig-29 and su-30 they have are real threat and we need to counter them . one more very important field is ignored the long range SAMs . we need them as much as we need heavy fighters

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## alimobin memon

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Ok so PAF will wait 10 years for 5th gen Chinese jet and and then more 10 years for delivery
> so PAF will wait 20 years for 5th gen jets and RUSSIA is creating Sukhoi/HAL FGFA for India What PAF will have to Do is to wait and wait let paf use outdated third gen jets
> even Egypt Nigeria Indonesia are making their Air force strong.
> 
> 
> 100% agree with you paf is only in a position to defend its self they cant or damage enemies position or bases even we don't have naval fighter jet like mig and su are v good for naval use


thats an exaggerated figure I assure u its no more than 7 yrs max that PAF will be flying these.


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## majid mehmood

guys one more from sputnik
Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters



Imran Khan said:


> sir we can not match one by one to themand IAF have su-27 ?
> and abut jaguar i did not consider it a heavy fighter abut heavy fighters like mig-29 and su-30 they have are real threat and we need to counter them . one more very important field is ignored the long range SAMs . we need them as much as we need heavy fighters


who told u mig 29 is heavy fighter payload same as jft block 2 & mig 29 upg

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## Imran Khan

majid mehmood said:


> guys one more from sputnik
> Real Deal: Pakistan Confirms Interest in Russian Su-35 Fighters
> 
> 
> who told u mig 29 is heavy fighter payload same as jft block 2 & mig 29 upg


data say it 

jf-17

*Empty weight:* 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)


MIG-29M series please remember india have SMT 

*Empty weight:* 13,380 kg (29,498 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 17,500 kg (38,581 lb)

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## baqai

anyone else thought of the following possibility:

China and Russia negotiations on Su-35 has been in deadlock for some time due to numbers, i believe it is because Russians wants to sell China as many as they can because they know China will reverse engineer their own version, Pakistan purchases a squad or two of Su-35 (maybe China gives us soft loans for the cause thus eliminating the financial aspect) and there you go reverse engineering problem solved for China without purchasing 60+ Su 35 while Pakistan uses the limited units to learn and enhance the tactics on the platform ...

just a thought


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## Imran Khan

baqai said:


> anyone else thought of the following possibility:
> 
> China and Russia negotiations on Su-35 has been in deadlock for some time due to numbers, i believe it is because Russians wants to sell China as many as they can because they know China will reverse engineer their own version, Pakistan purchases a squad or two of Su-35 (maybe China gives us soft loans for the cause thus eliminating the financial aspect) and there you go reverse engineering problem solved for China without purchasing 60+ Su 35 while Pakistan uses the limited units to learn and enhance the tactics on the platform ...
> 
> just a thought


what if russia set terms? and what abut future do you want to close Russian door for a single jet fighter ? not good idea backstabbing russia


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## baqai

Imran Khan said:


> what if russia set terms? and what abut future do you want to close Russian door for a single jet fighter ? not good idea backstabbing russia



Happened before with F-16's didn't it?


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## Imran Khan

baqai said:


> Happened before with F-16's didn't it?


no its not happened sir or else today we don't have block-52 amraams CFT JHMS and sniper pods

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## Wolf

I have heard it is without AESA radar. If true, should we opt for it.


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> sir we can not match one by one to themand IAF have su-27 ?
> and abut jaguar i did not consider it a heavy fighter abut heavy fighters like mig-29 and su-30 they have are real threat and we need to counter them . one more very important field is ignored the long range SAMs . we need them as much as we need heavy fighters



Imran Khan,

We don't need a lot of them---3 sqdrn's of SU35 or J11D's and 3 sqdrn's of JH7B's-----air to surface Babur cruise missiles---LR SA missiles and then let us see where the threats comes from---.

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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Once they reach their peak in training---then something like that may work----. But really---they are two different platforms---you cannot substitute one for the other----.
> 
> But the SU35 in itself is not enough-----we need a strike aircraft----.
> 
> Look at the enemy---3 times larger force than ours----and still has two varieties of deep strike aircraft---the Jaguar----the SU27----and then multirole aircraft as well---and to top that off---the SU30MKI to take the pure strike role as well.
> 
> So---basically---3 heavy aircrafts to fight against a puny little force-----.



When did your prime enemy get SU27, unless you are referring to China?


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## MastanKhan

Wolf said:


> I have heard it is without AESA radar. If true, should we opt for it.



Pesa is next step below aesa---


MilSpec said:


> When did your prime enemy get SU27, unless you are referring to China?



That was a miss print---.


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## prima99

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> As far as training against Mig29's is concerned do not know exactly where PAF has been conduction training but in the past some aircraft were flown to evaluate these aircraft. Indonesia might be the place where PAF pilots flew and exercised against Mig-29.



i don't think we have Mig 29 in our hangar. but we do bought SU 35 some days ago

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> First learn how to write basic english. There is a reason why you have so many negative ratings.


Wow another fault of my being human ?lolzz
So peoples gets , negative ratings because they don't know basic English here ?
You know , you are getting so funny , I know you are so pi$$ed of on me , cause I don't give a dam what you think about what ?
But I have my way of thinking , which you may not like & that's not means its the end of this world to me ?
Being critisized ,mocked up , makes you a stronger man , learn it kid ?
You have great abilities , don't waste them just to prove yourself right , because you may have more knowledge about some of subjects but I'm sure you doesn't have experiences about them ?
So listen to your worst critics !
& the super irony is you are taking it so personal that all of your dam posts has nothing to do with the title of thread ?
You have made me as your personal title , which as a responsible member , you shouldnt have ?
You must have followed the rules & would have stopped your personal rage against me ?
But it seems that , you are just another ignorant , arrogant , self proven , kid who just wants to prove himself right ?
I'm sorry I just write that all without basic English ?oops !chill out !

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> Wow another fault of my being human ?lolzz
> So peoples gets , negative ratings because they don't know basic English here ?
> You know , you are getting so funny , I know you are so pi$$ed of on me , cause I don't give a dam what you think about what ?
> But I have my way of thinking , which you may not like & that's not means its the end of this world to me ?
> Being critisized ,mocked up , makes you a stronger man , learn it kid ?
> You have great abilities , don't waste them just to prove yourself right , because you may have more knowledge about some of subjects but I'm sure you doesn't have experiences about them ?
> So listen to your worst critics !
> & the super irony is you are taking it so personal that all of your dam posts has nothing to do with the title of thread ?
> You have made me as your personal title , which as a responsible member , you shouldnt have ?
> You must have followed the rules & would have stopped your personal rage against me ?
> But it seems that , you are just another ignorant , arrogant , self proven , kid who just wants to prove himself right ?
> I'm sorry I just write that all without basic English ?oops !chill out !


I don't even know what you're trying to say. Just write Urdu.

Seriously, you're getting beyond annoying now.


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## PARIKRAMA

Prasun K sengupta view on Pak Russia Su35 murmurs and relationship




Prasun K. Sengupta said..


Why is everyone going into a tizzy about the Su-35? Instead, the following need to be considered: 
Was the PAF’s CAS invited to see the Su-35 during the MAKS 2015 expo last month? No. 
Did a senior PAF delegation visit MAKS 2015? No. Have the Russians sent a Su-35 to Pakistan for in-country demonstration flights? No. 
Has the PA inked any contract with Russia to procure the four Mi-35Ms? No. 
Will China & the US who are helping Pakistan survive financially ever allow Pakistan to procure major weapons platforms from Russia? Never. Between the AH-1Z Viper, ZW-10 & Mi-35M, which one will the PA prefer? Definitely the AH-1Z. 

Now to why the Ruskies warmed up to the PA’s COAS a few months back. The reason was the PA during Op Zarb-e-Azb eliminated plenty of ragheads from Chechnya & Uzbekistan who were sworn enemies of Russia in the north Caucasus, & since the PA will be preoccupied with such low-intensity conflicts for the next 10 years at the very least, the PA requires more Mi-171s plus more product-support for these helicopters. 
And that’s exactly what Russia will end up selling to the PA. Nothing else. 
In addition, the Ruskies will most probably supply a RD-93 turbofan NRO facility that will be cited in Kamra. 
Furthermore, since the PAF can no longer bank on Ukraine for supporting its four IL-78MKPs, it will have to approach Moscow for MRO support
The same goes for the spare 125mm main gun barrels for the PA’s T-80UD MBTs. 
So let’s bury the ghost of Su-35s destined for Pakistan once & for all. In fact, the same can be said even for China, especially after Beijing blatantly embarrassed Moscow by including Chinese clones like the J-11B & J-15 in the September 3 flypast. 
Russia is now asking for an enormous amount of liquidated damages from China for cloning the Su-27/Su-30 families, for cloning the S-300P & for cloning all the naval radars I’ve mentioned above.
Russia also wants China to promise that none of these cloned items will ever be exported. If ever China starts exporting these items, especially the cloned & cheaper J-11s & J-15s & J-16s, it result in Russia being ousted for good from the global weapons export market. 
So, for all intents & purposes, the Su-35s are no longer on offer to China as well
@Imran Khan @Mark Sien @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan 

Is his points valid? as i am not aware too much of PAF integral things so i am asking your views on this.

@Ind4Ever @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin

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## Imran Khan

PARIKRAMA said:


> Prasun K sengupta view on Pak Russia Su35 murmurs and relationship
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said..
> 
> 
> Why is everyone going into a tizzy about the Su-35? Instead, the following need to be considered:
> Was the PAF’s CAS invited to see the Su-35 during the MAKS 2015 expo last month? No.
> Did a senior PAF delegation visit MAKS 2015? No. Have the Russians sent a Su-35 to Pakistan for in-country demonstration flights? No.
> Has the PA inked any contract with Russia to procure the four Mi-35Ms? No.
> Will China & the US who are helping Pakistan survive financially ever allow Pakistan to procure major weapons platforms from Russia? Never. Between the AH-1Z Viper, ZW-10 & Mi-35M, which one will the PA prefer? Definitely the AH-1Z.
> 
> Now to why the Ruskies warmed up to the PA’s COAS a few months back. The reason was the PA during Op Zarb-e-Azb eliminated plenty of ragheads from Chechnya & Uzbekistan who were sworn enemies of Russia in the north Caucasus, & since the PA will be preoccupied with such low-intensity conflicts for the next 10 years at the very least, the PA requires more Mi-171s plus more product-support for these helicopters.
> And that’s exactly what Russia will end up selling to the PA. Nothing else.
> In addition, the Ruskies will most probably supply a RD-93 turbofan NRO facility that will be cited in Kamra.
> Furthermore, since the PAF can no longer bank on Ukraine for supporting its four IL-78MKPs, it will have to approach Moscow for MRO support
> The same goes for the spare 125mm main gun barrels for the PA’s T-80UD MBTs.
> So let’s bury the ghost of Su-35s destined for Pakistan once & for all. In fact, the same can be said even for China, especially after Beijing blatantly embarrassed Moscow by including Chinese clones like the J-11B & J-15 in the September 3 flypast.
> Russia is now asking for an enormous amount of liquidated damages from China for cloning the Su-27/Su-30 families, for cloning the S-300P & for cloning all the naval radars I’ve mentioned above.
> Russia also wants China to promise that none of these cloned items will ever be exported. If ever China starts exporting these items, especially the cloned & cheaper J-11s & J-15s & J-16s, it result in Russia being ousted for good from the global weapons export market.
> So, for all intents & purposes, the Su-35s are no longer on offer to China as well
> @Imran Khan @Mark Sien @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> 
> Is his points valid? as i am not aware too much of PAF integral things so i am asking your views on this.
> 
> @Ind4Ever @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin


he is another sour lessor no need to take serious if there is nothing why he care to write this scrap ?

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## sohail.ishaque

Super Falcon said:


> In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can
> 
> *We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone *
> 
> F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30



I m not an expert but i believe this is the sole point that is urging PAF to go for SU35s. its the CPEC and for the same purpose PN is acquiring more Subs.. all for the same reason CPEC, gawadar and threats from the sea....

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## batmannow

That Guy said:


> I don't even know what you're trying to say. Just write Urdu.
> 
> Seriously, you're getting beyond annoying now.


Seriously you are beyond being arrogant , I don't know what to say, just keep writing what ever you want , I will keep pushing you to your dam my lordship ?lolzz
@mods
Just get this stupid kid being out off topic ,arrogant or I may take him to cleaners my style ?




PARIKRAMA said:


> Prasun K sengupta view on Pak Russia Su35 murmurs and relationship
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said..
> 
> 
> Why is everyone going into a tizzy about the Su-35? Instead, the following need to be considered:
> Was the PAF’s CAS invited to see the Su-35 during the MAKS 2015 expo last month? No.
> Did a senior PAF delegation visit MAKS 2015? No. Have the Russians sent a Su-35 to Pakistan for in-country demonstration flights? No.
> Has the PA inked any contract with Russia to procure the four Mi-35Ms? No.
> Will China & the US who are helping Pakistan survive financially ever allow Pakistan to procure major weapons platforms from Russia? Never. Between the AH-1Z Viper, ZW-10 & Mi-35M, which one will the PA prefer? Definitely the AH-1Z.
> 
> Now to why the Ruskies warmed up to the PA’s COAS a few months back. The reason was the PA during Op Zarb-e-Azb eliminated plenty of ragheads from Chechnya & Uzbekistan who were sworn enemies of Russia in the north Caucasus, & since the PA will be preoccupied with such low-intensity conflicts for the next 10 years at the very least, the PA requires more Mi-171s plus more product-support for these helicopters.
> And that’s exactly what Russia will end up selling to the PA. Nothing else.
> In addition, the Ruskies will most probably supply a RD-93 turbofan NRO facility that will be cited in Kamra.
> Furthermore, since the PAF can no longer bank on Ukraine for supporting its four IL-78MKPs, it will have to approach Moscow for MRO support
> The same goes for the spare 125mm main gun barrels for the PA’s T-80UD MBTs.
> So let’s bury the ghost of Su-35s destined for Pakistan once & for all. In fact, the same can be said even for China, especially after Beijing blatantly embarrassed Moscow by including Chinese clones like the J-11B & J-15 in the September 3 flypast.
> Russia is now asking for an enormous amount of liquidated damages from China for cloning the Su-27/Su-30 families, for cloning the S-300P & for cloning all the naval radars I’ve mentioned above.
> Russia also wants China to promise that none of these cloned items will ever be exported. If ever China starts exporting these items, especially the cloned & cheaper J-11s & J-15s & J-16s, it result in Russia being ousted for good from the global weapons export market.
> So, for all intents & purposes, the Su-35s are no longer on offer to China as well
> @Imran Khan @Mark Sien @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> 
> Is his points valid? as i am not aware too much of PAF integral things so i am asking your views on this.
> 
> @Ind4Ever @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin


In the end sengupta is not Russian DFM ?
So no one gives a dam what he thinks , all importance is what Russian DFM said & this Gupta guy can't change it any way ?lolzz
End of story ?NO ?lolzz


With this deal kicking off with USA , Iam dam sure RUSSIA will offer more to Pakistan !

Indian cabinet approves military chopper deal - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
*
NEW DELHI: India cleared on Tuesday a $2.5 billion deal to buy 37 military helicopters from aviation giant Boeing, on the eve of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to the United States.

Mr Modi’s government is in the middle of a multi-billion dollar upgrade of its Soviet-era military hardware, partly to keep up with neighbouring rival Pakistan and big-spending China.

The cabinet cleared the purchase of 22 Apache helicopters and 15 heavy-lifting Chinook choppers, a long-pending deal that was discussed during US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel’s visit to India last August.
*
_*Also read: Airbus and Mahindra to make military choppers in India*_
*
“The cabinet committee on security has given the green signal for the helicopters. The deal is worth $2.5 billion,” a government source said.

Since his sweeping election victory last May, Mr Modi’s government has approved a string of military projects that had stalled under the previous left-leaning Congress government, in part over corruption scandals.

Mr Modi has also worked to shore up regional alliances since he came to power in India, which has a longstanding territorial dispute with China over a remote Himalayan region.

The nationalist premier wants to end India’s status as the world’s number one defence importer by instead manufacturing defence equipment locally.

His government has lifted the cap on foreign investment in the defence industry to 49 per cent and pushed tie ups between foreign and local companies.

The deal comes as Mr Modi heads this week to New York, where he hopes to meet US President Barack Obama ahead of the United Nations General Assembly.

He also travels to Silicon Valley on the West Coast, seeking to promote his country as open for business to help revive the Indian economy.

The deal for the Apaches was “hybrid”, with one contract to be signed with Boeing for the helicopters and the other with the US government for its weapons and radars, according to the Press Trust of India news agency.
*
_*Published in Dawn, September 23rd , 2015*_

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## Imran Khan

sohail.ishaque said:


> I m not an expert but i believe this is the sole point that is urging PAF to go for SU35s. its the CPEC and for the same purpose PN is acquiring more Subs.. all for the same reason CPEC, gawadar and threats from the sea....


these guys are same whom were over confident of jf-17 engine


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## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> these guys are same whom were over confident of jf-17 engine


We should try to get J16s. This is Much better than j11 and j15 and good to fill gap.


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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> We should try to get J16s. This is Much better than j11 and j15 and good to fill gap.


then why we are looking for su-35?


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## ice_man

Nahi aa rahay relax boys. 

Russia can't sell to pakistan indians will and stop the deal EVEN IF it comes close to being signed.


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## Muhammad Omar

Peaceful Civilian said:


> We should try to get J16s. This is Much better than j11 and j15 and good to fill gap.



Can China sale it's Flankers? I Don't think Russia will like that (cause China Reversed engineered Russian Flankers and made J-11 and J-16) that's why Pakistan is in Talks for Su-35...

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## majid mehmood

Imran Khan said:


> data say it
> 
> jf-17
> 
> *Empty weight:* 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
> 
> 
> MIG-29M series please remember india have SMT
> 
> *Empty weight:* 13,380 kg (29,498 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 17,500 kg (38,581 lb)


ia am talking about block 2 which has 4500 kgs
as for upg which india going to have it is 4500kgs
only mig 29 k has more
5500kg naval variant

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## Peaceful Civilian

Muhammad Omar said:


> Can China sale it's Flankers? I Don't think Russia will like that (cause China Reversed engineered Russian Flankers and made J-11 and J-16) that's why Pakistan is in Talks for Su-35...


Dude, J11 was copy of SU30 Mkk. . J16 is just extension of j11 and j15.
It is just based on j11 airframe. 
Thats why There should be No copyright issue on j16s , I think.


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## Imran Khan

ice_man said:


> Nahi aa rahay relax boys.
> 
> Russia can't sell to pakistan indians will and stop the deal EVEN IF it comes close to being signed.


so humy saapny to na dikhao yaar dil toot gya mera

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## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> then why we are looking for su-35?


So that Uncle Sam offer us the deal which is difficult to deny.


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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> So that Uncle Sam offer us the deal which is difficult to deny.


and whats we are looking boss i don't think uncle can offer us more f-35?


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## batmannow

Imran Khan said:


> so humy saapny to na dikhao yaar dil toot gya mera


Don't worry this time ,time has changed Russia is no more under anyone s influence & they want to get to gwadar !
So its conning up !

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## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> Don't worry this time ,time ha changed Russia is no more under anyone s influence & they want to get to gwadar !
> So its conning up !


i am not optimist until i see them i can't believe it

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## batmannow

Imran Khan said:


> so humy saapny to na dikhao yaar dil toot gya mera


Don't worry this time ,time ha changed Russia is no more under anyone s influence & they want to get to gwadar !
So its conning up !


Imran Khan said:


> i am not optimist until i see them i can't believe it


Been optimist is other thing being negative is other ?
This time , Russia has its gurntees from China with all the financial investment & to share what will be th future they are making together by investing the economic corridor through Pakistan ?
Plan has been finalized these operations in Karachi ,Baluchistan later in punjab & KPK all are done for clearance for the economic coridor ?
For the safety & security of that massive project Russia & china are ready to rock & roll with us .

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## Muhammad Omar

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Dude, J11 was copy of SU30 Mkk. . J16 is just extension of j11 and j15.
> It is just based on j11 airframe.
> Thats why There should be No copyright issue on j16s , I think.



well i read that part somewhere on this forum maybe m wrong


----------



## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> Don't worry this time ,time ha changed Russia is no more under anyone s influence & they want to get to gwadar !
> So its conning up !
> 
> Been optimist is other thing being negative is other ?
> This time , Russia has its gurntees from China with all the financial investment & to share what will be th future they are making together by investing the economic corridor through Pakistan ?
> Plan has been finalized these operations in Karachi ,Baluchistan later in punjab & KPK all are done for clearance for the economic coridor ?
> For the safety & security of that massive project Russia & china are ready to rock & roll with us .


i wish you are right but after many failures i have no hope is this .


----------



## batmannow

Imran Khan said:


> i wish you are right but after many failures i have no hope is this .


Yar , I know but every time is not the same time be together ,& united we will pass this river of blood & fire ?


----------



## Indus Falcon

*Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority*
© AFP 2015/ ERIC FEFERBERG
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
11.09.2015 

*The US media has sounded the alarm that the F-15, which the US Air Force touts as an “all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat”, is now facing tough competition from Russia’s Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO reporting name Flanker E), and wonders which would win in a face-to-face battle.*

The US seems to be losing its presumed air superiority.

Its F-15 Eagle, which was believed to be able to “penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight current or projected enemy aircraft", seems to be losing its ground, according to the US magazine The National Interest.


Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar
“In terms of pure kinematic performance, the Su-35 is slightly slower than the F-15C in terms of max speed but it can out accelerate the Eagle with its powerful twin Saturn Izdeliye 117S engines, which put out 31,900lbs of thrust each. Further, when the jet is relatively lightly loaded, it can maintain supersonic speeds without the use of its afterburners.”


*Maneuverability at a Low Speed is Also an Area of Advantage for Russia’s Su-35:*

“Where the Su-35 does have an insurmountable edge is at low speeds. The Flanker-E has three-dimensional thrust vectoring and is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds.”

However, the magazine adds, “a lot of it is going to come down to pilot skill and, frankly, luck”:

Scary Duo: US in Fear of Russia, China to Crush on Its Stealth Aircraft
“Given the advent of helmet mounted cuing systems and high off-boresight missiles like the AIM-9X and Russian R-73, more often than not, close in visual encounters tend to be 'mutual kill' situations as many pilots can attest.”


In terms of the built-in equipment, the F-15C and the F-15E seem to hold their ground. However, the Su-35 “does hold a fleeting advantage" for passive sensors, while the F-15 is yet to receive “a very capable” built-in infrared search and track system (IRST).

“At longer ranges, the F-15C and the F-15E still have the advantage over the Su-35 with their active electronically scanned array radars. The Raytheon APG-63 (v) 3 and APG-82 (v)1 on the two Eagle variants are still considerably superior to the Su-35S’ Tikhomirov IRBIS-E phased array radar. The Su-35 does hold a fleeting advantage for now for passive sensors since it has a built-in infrared search and track system (IRST), but the F-15 fleet will receive a very capable IRST in the near future—nullifying the Flanker’s edge.”

*The Flanker-E's Electronic Warfare Suite is Yet Another Area Where it “Holds the Edge”:*

“The Su-35S boasts a potent digital radio frequency memory jamming suite that can wreck havoc with the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. While American missiles are likely to eventually make it through, it will take many more missiles to achieve a kill than planners were counting on. The Su-35, meanwhile, carries a huge arsenal of air-to-air missiles versus the F-15 fleet’s obsolete defensive electronics.”


With all the above in mind, the outlet has finally found some ground to reassure itself that the danger is not that imminent. It hopes that the Su-35's advantages are going to play against the F-15, only if “the United States would be fighting a war against Russia or some other great power — like China”

“That’s not likely to happen,” it wishfully asserts.

"What's more likely to happen is that a F-15 would run into a Su-35 operated by some Third World despot. The pilots are not likely to have the training, tactics or experience to fight against an American aviator with a realistic chance of winning,” it reassures itself.

“Some random Third World power is not likely to be able generate a fully operational jet much of the time. Furthermore, other than Russia and China, a potential adversary is not likely to have an AWACS (airborne early warning and control system) or full ground controlled intercept capabilities—which further hampers the enemy.”

*The Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter*

The Sukhoi Su-35 fighter is a single-seat twin-engine super-maneuverable multirole fighter, built by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association in Russia's Far East and designed by Sukhoi, which has a contract to deliver 48 of the planes to the Russian Air Force before the end of 2015.

The Su-35 is known as a 4++ generation aircraft, which employs fifth generation technology, rendering it superior to other fourth generation fighters currently under development. The Su-35 is also a more reliable option than other fifth generation planes which are in their development phase, the best known of which are the US F-35, the Chinese J-20, and the Sukhoi PAK-FA [T-50].

Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority

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## batmannow

Muhammad Omar said:


> well i read that part somewhere on this forum maybe m wrong


Under no condition even with just a air frame or design China can sell any picture of flankers to any one ?


----------



## Imran Khan

Indus Falcon said:


> *Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority*
> © AFP 2015/ ERIC FEFERBERG
> MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
> 11.09.2015
> 
> *The US media has sounded the alarm that the F-15, which the US Air Force touts as an “all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat”, is now facing tough competition from Russia’s Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO reporting name Flanker E), and wonders which would win in a face-to-face battle.*
> 
> The US seems to be losing its presumed air superiority.
> 
> Its F-15 Eagle, which was believed to be able to “penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight current or projected enemy aircraft", seems to be losing its ground, according to the US magazine The National Interest.
> 
> 
> Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar
> “In terms of pure kinematic performance, the Su-35 is slightly slower than the F-15C in terms of max speed but it can out accelerate the Eagle with its powerful twin Saturn Izdeliye 117S engines, which put out 31,900lbs of thrust each. Further, when the jet is relatively lightly loaded, it can maintain supersonic speeds without the use of its afterburners.”
> 
> 
> *Maneuverability at a Low Speed is Also an Area of Advantage for Russia’s Su-35:*
> 
> “Where the Su-35 does have an insurmountable edge is at low speeds. The Flanker-E has three-dimensional thrust vectoring and is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds.”
> 
> However, the magazine adds, “a lot of it is going to come down to pilot skill and, frankly, luck”:
> 
> Scary Duo: US in Fear of Russia, China to Crush on Its Stealth Aircraft
> “Given the advent of helmet mounted cuing systems and high off-boresight missiles like the AIM-9X and Russian R-73, more often than not, close in visual encounters tend to be 'mutual kill' situations as many pilots can attest.”
> 
> 
> In terms of the built-in equipment, the F-15C and the F-15E seem to hold their ground. However, the Su-35 “does hold a fleeting advantage" for passive sensors, while the F-15 is yet to receive “a very capable” built-in infrared search and track system (IRST).
> 
> “At longer ranges, the F-15C and the F-15E still have the advantage over the Su-35 with their active electronically scanned array radars. The Raytheon APG-63 (v) 3 and APG-82 (v)1 on the two Eagle variants are still considerably superior to the Su-35S’ Tikhomirov IRBIS-E phased array radar. The Su-35 does hold a fleeting advantage for now for passive sensors since it has a built-in infrared search and track system (IRST), but the F-15 fleet will receive a very capable IRST in the near future—nullifying the Flanker’s edge.”
> 
> *The Flanker-E's Electronic Warfare Suite is Yet Another Area Where it “Holds the Edge”:*
> 
> “The Su-35S boasts a potent digital radio frequency memory jamming suite that can wreck havoc with the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. While American missiles are likely to eventually make it through, it will take many more missiles to achieve a kill than planners were counting on. The Su-35, meanwhile, carries a huge arsenal of air-to-air missiles versus the F-15 fleet’s obsolete defensive electronics.”
> 
> 
> With all the above in mind, the outlet has finally found some ground to reassure itself that the danger is not that imminent. It hopes that the Su-35's advantages are going to play against the F-15, only if “the United States would be fighting a war against Russia or some other great power — like China”
> 
> “That’s not likely to happen,” it wishfully asserts.
> 
> "What's more likely to happen is that a F-15 would run into a Su-35 operated by some Third World despot. The pilots are not likely to have the training, tactics or experience to fight against an American aviator with a realistic chance of winning,” it reassures itself.
> 
> “Some random Third World power is not likely to be able generate a fully operational jet much of the time. Furthermore, other than Russia and China, a potential adversary is not likely to have an AWACS (airborne early warning and control system) or full ground controlled intercept capabilities—which further hampers the enemy.”
> 
> *The Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter*
> 
> The Sukhoi Su-35 fighter is a single-seat twin-engine super-maneuverable multirole fighter, built by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association in Russia's Far East and designed by Sukhoi, which has a contract to deliver 48 of the planes to the Russian Air Force before the end of 2015.
> 
> The Su-35 is known as a 4++ generation aircraft, which employs fifth generation technology, rendering it superior to other fourth generation fighters currently under development. The Su-35 is also a more reliable option than other fifth generation planes which are in their development phase, the best known of which are the US F-35, the Chinese J-20, and the Sukhoi PAK-FA [T-50].
> 
> Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority


now we start praising flankers some months ago we hate them and say russian junk

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## Indus Falcon

Imran Khan said:


> now we start praising flankers some months ago we hate them and say russian junk


Not saying anything, this was published in Sputnik, and it sounded very balanced, that's why I posted it.

Secondly, Russian hardware has reliability issues and are maintenance intensive, to what extent this is has been improved upon, I don't know.


----------



## nadeemkhan110

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan,
> 
> We don't need a lot of them---3 sqdrn's of SU35 or J11D's and 3 sqdrn's of JH7B's-----air to surface Babur cruise missiles---LR SA missiles and then let us see where the threats comes from---.


We need su-35 in a good figure but we don't need jh7B

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## batmannow

Imran Khan said:


> now we start praising flankers some months ago we hate them and say russian junk


It happens all the time , its called mind games ?

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## Imran Khan

Indus Falcon said:


> Not saying anything, this was published in Sputnik, and it sounded very balanced, that's why I posted it.
> 
> Secondly, Russian hardware has reliability issues and are maintenance intensive, to what extent, this is has been improved upon, I don't know.


i wish we have flankers so we can say we have east west up down all fighters russia china france USA


----------



## Indus Falcon

nadeemkhan110 said:


> We need su-35 in a good figure but we don't need jh7B


Can you tell me the price difference between the two?


----------



## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan,
> 
> We don't need a lot of them---3 sqdrn's of SU35 or J11D's and 3 sqdrn's of JH7B's-----air to surface Babur cruise missiles---LR SA missiles and then let us see where the threats comes from---.


sir jee ab ye JH7 ka panga ap ne to is month sary fighter PAF main daalny ka mission bana liya hai ?D

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## Muhammad Omar

*Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan*
Posted on: 09:32 AM IST Sep 23, 2015


In what would potentially be the largest defence deal between the two countries, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft, say IHF Janes reports.

A senior Pakistani government official shared the information while responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.






Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".

The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform.

At the time, the official had told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.



Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan - IBNLive

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## nadeemkhan110

Indus Falcon said:


> *Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority*
> © AFP 2015/ ERIC FEFERBERG
> MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
> 11.09.2015
> 
> *The US media has sounded the alarm that the F-15, which the US Air Force touts as an “all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat”, is now facing tough competition from Russia’s Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO reporting name Flanker E), and wonders which would win in a face-to-face battle.*
> 
> The US seems to be losing its presumed air superiority.
> 
> Its F-15 Eagle, which was believed to be able to “penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight current or projected enemy aircraft", seems to be losing its ground, according to the US magazine The National Interest.
> 
> 
> Russian Su-35 Fighter Jet Sees Export Orders Soar
> “In terms of pure kinematic performance, the Su-35 is slightly slower than the F-15C in terms of max speed but it can out accelerate the Eagle with its powerful twin Saturn Izdeliye 117S engines, which put out 31,900lbs of thrust each. Further, when the jet is relatively lightly loaded, it can maintain supersonic speeds without the use of its afterburners.”
> 
> 
> *Maneuverability at a Low Speed is Also an Area of Advantage for Russia’s Su-35:*
> 
> “Where the Su-35 does have an insurmountable edge is at low speeds. The Flanker-E has three-dimensional thrust vectoring and is unbelievably maneuverable at low speeds.”
> 
> However, the magazine adds, “a lot of it is going to come down to pilot skill and, frankly, luck”:
> 
> Scary Duo: US in Fear of Russia, China to Crush on Its Stealth Aircraft
> “Given the advent of helmet mounted cuing systems and high off-boresight missiles like the AIM-9X and Russian R-73, more often than not, close in visual encounters tend to be 'mutual kill' situations as many pilots can attest.”
> 
> 
> In terms of the built-in equipment, the F-15C and the F-15E seem to hold their ground. However, the Su-35 “does hold a fleeting advantage" for passive sensors, while the F-15 is yet to receive “a very capable” built-in infrared search and track system (IRST).
> 
> “At longer ranges, the F-15C and the F-15E still have the advantage over the Su-35 with their active electronically scanned array radars. The Raytheon APG-63 (v) 3 and APG-82 (v)1 on the two Eagle variants are still considerably superior to the Su-35S’ Tikhomirov IRBIS-E phased array radar. The Su-35 does hold a fleeting advantage for now for passive sensors since it has a built-in infrared search and track system (IRST), but the F-15 fleet will receive a very capable IRST in the near future—nullifying the Flanker’s edge.”
> 
> *The Flanker-E's Electronic Warfare Suite is Yet Another Area Where it “Holds the Edge”:*
> 
> “The Su-35S boasts a potent digital radio frequency memory jamming suite that can wreck havoc with the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. While American missiles are likely to eventually make it through, it will take many more missiles to achieve a kill than planners were counting on. The Su-35, meanwhile, carries a huge arsenal of air-to-air missiles versus the F-15 fleet’s obsolete defensive electronics.”
> 
> 
> With all the above in mind, the outlet has finally found some ground to reassure itself that the danger is not that imminent. It hopes that the Su-35's advantages are going to play against the F-15, only if “the United States would be fighting a war against Russia or some other great power — like China”
> 
> “That’s not likely to happen,” it wishfully asserts.
> 
> "What's more likely to happen is that a F-15 would run into a Su-35 operated by some Third World despot. The pilots are not likely to have the training, tactics or experience to fight against an American aviator with a realistic chance of winning,” it reassures itself.
> 
> “Some random Third World power is not likely to be able generate a fully operational jet much of the time. Furthermore, other than Russia and China, a potential adversary is not likely to have an AWACS (airborne early warning and control system) or full ground controlled intercept capabilities—which further hampers the enemy.”
> 
> *The Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter*
> 
> The Sukhoi Su-35 fighter is a single-seat twin-engine super-maneuverable multirole fighter, built by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association in Russia's Far East and designed by Sukhoi, which has a contract to deliver 48 of the planes to the Russian Air Force before the end of 2015.
> 
> The Su-35 is known as a 4++ generation aircraft, which employs fifth generation technology, rendering it superior to other fourth generation fighters currently under development. The Su-35 is also a more reliable option than other fifth generation planes which are in their development phase, the best known of which are the US F-35, the Chinese J-20, and the Sukhoi PAK-FA [T-50].
> 
> Mere Existence of Su-35 Fighter Already Problem for US Air Superiority


 
Every one knows That Su-35 is almost 5th generation Jet Its just Not stealth.
All of su-35 technology is of 5th generation its a world class jet.
INDONESIA , NIGERIA and IRAN are going to buy su-35 just because its not that costly and its with 5th gen tech
*sources:*
Indonesia selects Su-35 to meet air combat requirement - IHS Jane's 360
Russia and Nigeria signed a contract for delivery of a large batch of helicopters - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM



Muhammad Omar said:


> *Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan*
> Posted on: 09:32 AM IST Sep 23, 2015
> 
> 
> In what would potentially be the largest defence deal between the two countries, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft, say IHF Janes reports.
> 
> A senior Pakistani government official shared the information while responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".
> 
> The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.
> 
> In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform.
> 
> At the time, the official had told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan - IBNLive


 *If this report and IHS janes report is true PAF IS GOING IN A RIGHT WAY.*


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> and whats we are looking boss i don't think uncle can offer us more f-35?


It depends on relationship. And it depends on us how we convince uncle Sam for security of technology not to fall in China hands. Plus it depends on us how we take advantage for being front line state on war against terrorism. We didn't play smart in past and didn't ask them to cover all expenses on international war. 


While Are you ready for Su35s? New trade partnership with Russia? It has more sanction issue due to its deep relationship with India and more risk involved in this deal...... 
Better option is go with old friend America. And no such chance of sanction as we are already nuclear power and we have no such bad ambitions against America or any western country.


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## Imran Khan

Muhammad Omar said:


> *Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan*
> Posted on: 09:32 AM IST Sep 23, 2015
> 
> 
> In what would potentially be the largest defence deal between the two countries, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with Russia to buy Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft, say IHF Janes reports.
> 
> A senior Pakistani government official shared the information while responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> Though no decision has been made yet and no terms of the deal have been disclosed, discussions between the two countries shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware to Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.
> 
> The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".
> 
> The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.
> 
> In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform.
> 
> At the time, the official had told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan - IBNLive


now this will flame in india again


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## Quwa

PARIKRAMA said:


> Prasun K sengupta view on Pak Russia Su35 murmurs and relationship
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said..
> 
> 
> Why is everyone going into a tizzy about the Su-35? Instead, the following need to be considered:
> Was the PAF’s CAS invited to see the Su-35 during the MAKS 2015 expo last month? No.
> Did a senior PAF delegation visit MAKS 2015? No. Have the Russians sent a Su-35 to Pakistan for in-country demonstration flights? No.
> Has the PA inked any contract with Russia to procure the four Mi-35Ms? No.
> Will China & the US who are helping Pakistan survive financially ever allow Pakistan to procure major weapons platforms from Russia? Never. Between the AH-1Z Viper, ZW-10 & Mi-35M, which one will the PA prefer? Definitely the AH-1Z.
> 
> Now to why the Ruskies warmed up to the PA’s COAS a few months back. The reason was the PA during Op Zarb-e-Azb eliminated plenty of ragheads from Chechnya & Uzbekistan who were sworn enemies of Russia in the north Caucasus, & since the PA will be preoccupied with such low-intensity conflicts for the next 10 years at the very least, the PA requires more Mi-171s plus more product-support for these helicopters.
> And that’s exactly what Russia will end up selling to the PA. Nothing else.
> In addition, the Ruskies will most probably supply a RD-93 turbofan NRO facility that will be cited in Kamra.
> Furthermore, since the PAF can no longer bank on Ukraine for supporting its four IL-78MKPs, it will have to approach Moscow for MRO support
> The same goes for the spare 125mm main gun barrels for the PA’s T-80UD MBTs.
> So let’s bury the ghost of Su-35s destined for Pakistan once & for all. In fact, the same can be said even for China, especially after Beijing blatantly embarrassed Moscow by including Chinese clones like the J-11B & J-15 in the September 3 flypast.
> Russia is now asking for an enormous amount of liquidated damages from China for cloning the Su-27/Su-30 families, for cloning the S-300P & for cloning all the naval radars I’ve mentioned above.
> Russia also wants China to promise that none of these cloned items will ever be exported. If ever China starts exporting these items, especially the cloned & cheaper J-11s & J-15s & J-16s, it result in Russia being ousted for good from the global weapons export market.
> So, for all intents & purposes, the Su-35s are no longer on offer to China as well
> @Imran Khan @Mark Sien @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> 
> Is his points valid? as i am not aware too much of PAF integral things so i am asking your views on this.
> 
> @Ind4Ever @Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin


The critical flaw with that otherwise sound argument is that talks are actually taking place between Russia and Pakistan. Beyond the fact that a Pakistani official said everything is in its early stages, we don't know anything else. We don't know how many, how much, whether this is a tender for a certain kind of plane or a specific interest in Su-35, etc. We just know that the two sides are talking, and if that is the case, then the idea that Russia wouldn't sell such a system to Pakistan should be put to rest. Russia (like Sweden or U.S pre-2001) could have just said, "we're not discussing this matter as we have no plans to sell to Pakistan." But in reality, neither Pakistan or Russia have come out denying the statements made to the media by people on both sides of the fence.

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## SHAMK9

Muhammad Omar said:


> Despite long standing ties with India, Russia may sell Su-35 Flanker-E fighter to Pakistan - IBNLive


Straight to the comment section

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## illusion8

abdulbarijan said:


> -Secondly, for someone who goes in to such detail over a single word ...



I went in such detail on a single word because that's the only single statement available from the russian side - the rest are just conjectures and extrapolations...the only statement from a low ranked FM "also talking about delivery of SU35" is the only real statement for which all this brouhaha has been created. One can only draw some observations from that singular statement.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> now this will flame in india again


Russia wants to work with Pakistan due to gain certain technologies that Pakistan posses which are not available from the West and India.

As far as China acquiring the SU-35 is concerned they are not interested in them because they do not want to invest in them at this stage however they are thinking if India some how manages to get out of the PAK-FA then they would like to buy some of them and also invest in joint production. 

As far as Pakistan is concerned they are interested in getting stealth tech not just form one source but from all those who are willing to provide this...

Now this is the very reason the Indians are on fire...


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## nadeemkhan110

*Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China*
Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.
While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.
*A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.
One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.
The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.
Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.*
_sources:_
Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?

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## baqai

^ i am happy that i am not the only one who thought of that copying theory :p


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## Muhammad Omar

@Peaceful Civilian Look at the Article by @nadeemkhan110 

Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.

Told you China Reversed Engineered Russian Flankers

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## Peaceful Civilian

Muhammad Omar said:


> @Peaceful Civilian Look at the Article by @nadeemkhan110
> 
> Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.
> 
> Told you China Reversed Engineered Russian Flankers


Lolzzzzzzz, if we get Chinese copies then there should be no spare parts issue, Nor much sanction issue too and Russia to convince india we are getting it from china... hahaha... .
Win Win situation for Russia, china & Pak.
And india as typical cry baby if this deal happens....
Nice way to troll india

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## abdulbarijan

illusion8 said:


> I went in such detail on a single word because that's the only single statement available from the russian side - the rest are just conjectures and extrapolations...the only statement from a low ranked FM "also talking about delivery of SU35" is the only real statement for which all this brouhaha has been created. One can only draw some observations from that singular statement.



Do me a favor,* when you quote me ... don't cherry pick from part of 2 lined sentence with a 4 lined explanation ... *



abdulbarijan said:


> -Secondly, for someone who goes in to such detail over a single word ... I believe you forgot to read the part where the Mig-35 "offer" wasn't really an offer but more of a suggestion for Russian administration, when India did not shortlist the Mig-35 for the MMRCA deal ... Hence the quote of Russia's strategy and technical analysis center assistant director at the time being along the lines of ...
> 
> "Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy."



Lastly, if you went through my post it had an answer for your point .. so please review it again .. and if you have a point then please do contribute further ...



abdulbarijan said:


> - I said that this was a 'theory' in jest ... If I were to seriously consider it ... I think I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking or at best a very weak hypothesis... and let me tell you why ...
> 
> Your "theory" is based on the presumptions that;
> 
> "talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets." -- are the Deputy FM's exact words ..
> 
> This is so out of the blue, chances are PAF pilots haven't even gotten in a cockpit of a Super Flanker ... which means that the whole process of requirement,trials, analysis price ... etc. has not taken place ... which is necessary for a delivery ..
> 
> The dealings of SU-35 with China ...
> 
> hence ... this must mean ... SU-35 only being delivered to PLAAF but can be used to protect investments in Pakistan ...
> *and this so called 'theory' can be simply dismissed based on two factors ... *
> 
> *-Ilya Karmik specifically mentioning Pakistan as a "potential customer" ... Remember this is also Sputnik the same defensenews outlet that reported the Russian Deputy FM's story and this piece was published back in August of 2015.*
> 
> 
> 
> -*The confirmation from the Pakistani side .. although not an exact quote but is reported something like this .. notice the choice of words ... *
> 
> 
> *Bottom line ... Ilya Kramik is calling Pakistan a potential "buyer" ... Pakistani officials are talking about a "Purchase" -- yet your basing your idea on the choice of words that weren't even exact quotes ...*
> 
> I think this is enough to prove how illogical this idea is ... but lets put an end to this idea once and for all ... by exploring other problems with your theory ...
> 
> - Why is it that PLAAF wants to operate ONLY SU-35 in Pakistan to protect its interest ... after all PLAAF has assets from its own industry like say J-11B, J-16/15 are enough to deter any sort of threat ...
> 
> - How do you presume that PAF never had access to the SU-35 ... the Mig-35 "suggestion" was in mid 2011 ... in 2012 there were rumors on Chinese forums and even on here that PAF was considering SU-35's ... and this was right after India screwed the Russians out of the MMRCA ... so who is to say Pakistan never had any access to the Super flanker ...
> 
> The deal goes through or not is another discussion, but like I said I should have gone further and call it a guess or wishful thinking because it simply has too much flaws and is based on coincidences ...


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## That Guy

batmannow said:


> Seriously you are beyond being arrogant , I don't know what to say, just keep writing what ever you want , I will keep pushing you to your dam my lordship ?lolzz
> @mods
> Just get this stupid kid being out off topic ,arrogant or I may take him to cleaners my style ?
> 
> 
> 
> In the end sengupta is not Russian DFM ?
> So no one gives a dam what he thinks , all importance is what Russian DFM said & this Gupta guy can't change it any way ?lolzz
> End of story ?NO ?lolzz
> 
> 
> With this deal kicking off with USA , Iam dam sure RUSSIA will offer more to Pakistan !
> 
> Indian cabinet approves military chopper deal - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
> *
> NEW DELHI: India cleared on Tuesday a $2.5 billion deal to buy 37 military helicopters from aviation giant Boeing, on the eve of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to the United States.
> 
> Mr Modi’s government is in the middle of a multi-billion dollar upgrade of its Soviet-era military hardware, partly to keep up with neighbouring rival Pakistan and big-spending China.
> 
> The cabinet cleared the purchase of 22 Apache helicopters and 15 heavy-lifting Chinook choppers, a long-pending deal that was discussed during US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel’s visit to India last August.
> *
> _*Also read: Airbus and Mahindra to make military choppers in India*_
> *
> “The cabinet committee on security has given the green signal for the helicopters. The deal is worth $2.5 billion,” a government source said.
> 
> Since his sweeping election victory last May, Mr Modi’s government has approved a string of military projects that had stalled under the previous left-leaning Congress government, in part over corruption scandals.
> 
> Mr Modi has also worked to shore up regional alliances since he came to power in India, which has a longstanding territorial dispute with China over a remote Himalayan region.
> 
> The nationalist premier wants to end India’s status as the world’s number one defence importer by instead manufacturing defence equipment locally.
> 
> His government has lifted the cap on foreign investment in the defence industry to 49 per cent and pushed tie ups between foreign and local companies.
> 
> The deal comes as Mr Modi heads this week to New York, where he hopes to meet US President Barack Obama ahead of the United Nations General Assembly.
> 
> He also travels to Silicon Valley on the West Coast, seeking to promote his country as open for business to help revive the Indian economy.
> 
> The deal for the Apaches was “hybrid”, with one contract to be signed with Boeing for the helicopters and the other with the US government for its weapons and radars, according to the Press Trust of India news agency.
> *
> _*Published in Dawn, September 23rd , 2015*_



Lol


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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> then why we are looking for su-35?



Because Pakistan don't want to over burden its closest ally China which is rapidly modernizing PLAAF and need huge fleet to be replaced. Therefore asking J-11s or higher series will put their production line in pressure although in emergency they will provide those when asked by Pakistan.

Now going for Su-35 benefit all 03 countries Pakistan, Russia and China.

Russia need new markets for military products Pakistan is one of those with strategic benefits, Pakistan need weapons in affordable price (Su-35 class jet from west is unaffordable and sanction able too), China want strong Pakistan to protect its future interest and will get access to Su-35 engine tech without purchasing them (if they wanted).

Indians think due to their huge orders Russia can be black mailed but they forgot China is much bigger partner of Russia and both have joint strong future strategic interest while India is allying with west to encircle China, so now with whom Russia will ally in future.

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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> Because Pakistan don't want to over burden its closest ally China which is rapidly modernizing PLAAF and need huge fleet to be replaced. Therefore asking J-11s or higher series will put their production line in pressure although in emergency they will provide those when asked by Pakistan.
> 
> Now going for Su-35 benefit all 03 countries Pakistan, Russia and China.
> 
> Russia need new markets for military products Pakistan is one of those with strategic benefits, Pakistan need weapons in adorable price (Su-35 class jet from west is unaffordable and sanction able too), China want strong Pakistan to protect its future interest and will get access to Su-35 engine tech without purchasing them (if they wanted).
> 
> Indians think due to their huge orders Russia can be black mailed but they forgot China is much bigger partner of Russia and China both have joint strong future strategic interest while India is allying with west to encircle China, so now with whom Russia will ally in future.


fully agree nothing more can be said on it sir

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## VelocuR

*Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China
*
Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

*A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.*

Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?


Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?


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## Muhammad Omar

VelocuR said:


> *Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China
> *
> Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.
> 
> While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.
> 
> *A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.
> 
> The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.*
> 
> Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?
> 
> 
> Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?



There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...


Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??


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## zebra7

VelocuR said:


> One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, *it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi*, the source added.



What does this mean ??


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## VelocuR

Muhammad Omar said:


> There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...
> 
> 
> Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??



No clue, what requirements. 

Pakistan should purchase it from Russia without unnecessary modifications, just like our F-16s.



zebra7 said:


> What does this mean ??



It is true Russia wouldn't do anything to disturb India, now smile please.


----------



## JunaidP

VelocuR said:


> *Russia is thinking to sale su-35 to Pakistan through China
> *
> Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.
> 
> While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.
> 
> *A Russian source told Defenseworld, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.
> 
> The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> Really? It should be directly between Pakistan and Russia is that possible?



what i don't see being discussed in this thread are the technical aspects.. the cockpit clearly does not have HOTAS.. while both our front line fighters do (F-16 & JF-17).. how would that impact pilot training or would that be just negligible? would that be one of the changes required by PAF? i think i read somewhere that the Su-37 test bed did have HOTAS in it.. 

another MAJOR question would be how it would be integrated in our C4I.. going by this article, what i see is PAF going for the Chinese radar (from the J-11D perhaps) but keeping the airframe and engines the same.. cant say much about the EW suite.. this way it would not have any issues integrating with our existing C4I network and Russia can pitch the IRBIS-E radar to the Indians to give them a kind of a "lollipop" for their Super Flanker upgrade..

questions would still arise over its serviceability.. China would have to come in as a guarantor for spare parts and an engine overhaul setup would have to be made as part of the discussions..


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Muhammad Omar said:


> There's Nothing wrong in it Russia Sold JF-17 Engines To China and then to Pakistan but later after some time (years) Pakistan is now buying directly from Russia ..... so may be Russians give Chinese Few Su-35 which China will sell them to Pakistan and Later Pakistan can buy Directly from Russians...
> 
> 
> Plus what Modifications will China Do to Su-35 before giving them to Pakistan and what are Pakistan requirements??


This might be the Chinese AESA Radar and similar cockpit as JF-17 for SU-35 giving them commonality. EW suit might also be an advance western one along with the ejection seat...


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## S.U.R.B.

Following is a fine writing about the recently introduced capabilities in the the most advanced version of Flanker.
It include the pilots' opinion and their assessment regarding it's deployment against the western platforms.
A good read for the newbies.

Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

_Dave Majumdar has been covering defense since 2004. He currently writes for the U.S. Naval Institute, Aviation Week and The Daily Beast, among others. Majumdar previously covered national security issues at Flight International, Defense News and C4ISR Journal. Majumdar studied Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and is a student of naval history._



> The Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E is the most potent fighter currently in operation with the Russian Air Force. The powerful twin-engine fighter, which is an advanced derivative of the original Soviet-era Su-27, is high flying, fast and carries an enormous payload. That, combined with its advanced suite of avionics, makes the Su-35 an extremely dangerous foe to any U.S. fighter, with the exception of the stealthy Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. That is one of the reasons the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force is keen to acquire the new jet.
> 
> “It’s a great airplane and very dangerous, especially if they make a lot of them,” said one senior U.S. military official with extensive experience on fifth-generation fighters. “I think even an AESA [active electronically scanned array-radar equipped F-15C] Eagle and [Boeing F/A-18E/F] Super Hornet would both have their hands full.”
> 
> One U.S. Navy Super Hornet pilot—a graduate of that service’s elite TOPGUN school—offered a sobering assessment. “When taken as a singular platform, I like the Su-35’s chances against most of our platforms, with perhaps the exception of the F-22 and F-15C,” the naval aviator said. “I suspect the F/A-18E/F can hold it’s own and F-35 has presumed stealth and sensor management on its side.”
> 
> But one Air Force official with experience on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter said that the Su-35 could pose a serious challenge for the stealthy new American jet. The F-35 was built primarily as a strike fighter and does not have the sheer speed or altitude capability of the Su-35 or F-22. “The Su's ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35,” the Air Force official said.
> 
> As an air-superiority fighter, its major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.
> 
> The Su-35 would be launching its weapons from high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft; the F-35 would primarily be operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9.
> 
> The Su-35 builds on the already potent Flanker airframe, which in many respects already exceeded the aerodynamic performance of the Boeing F-15 Eagle. The Su-35 adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.
> 
> “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform on paper,” said one highly experienced F-22 pilot. “It's considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft. It possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.”
> 
> The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> Further, the Air Force official added that even modernized versions of older jets would be in serious trouble against the new Flanker variant. “I'd say our fourth-gen AESAs aren't a big advantage,” said the official. “They're more to get us back in the game against jamming.”
> 
> 
> 
> But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven't been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” said another senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”
> 
> The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” the Super Hornet pilot said.
> 
> Another of the Su-35’s major advantages is that it carries an enormous payload of air-to-air missiles. “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” the Navy pilot said.
> 
> On paper, that makes the Su-35 an extremely capable platform, but as one highly experienced F-22 pilot pointed out: “Whether they can translate that into valid tactics remains to be seen".
> 
> Further, air warfare is far more complicated than comparing individual platforms—the sum total of the forces brought to bear have to be assessed in aggregate.
> 
> “It’s always sexy to compare one aircraft to another,” the naval aviator said. “The secret sauce is probably in our fighters and commensurate ‘strike’ or employment packages, to include AWACS, refuelling, and EM-capable platforms.”
> 
> Another highly experienced veteran fighter pilot added that much about the Su-35 and the capabilities of the Russian military remain unknown.
> 
> “You really don't know the capabilities of the weapons system or the skill level of the other side's pilots or their battle management system,” one former Air Force pilot with extensive experience with Soviet and Russian hardware said. “A physical platform is a shell of capability. It's what's inside that counts along with the command and control to execute. Our fifth-gen is pretty good. Weapons reliability and defensive suites might make the difference.”
> 
> The Navy Super Hornet pilot added to that point. “The question really comes down to numbers and tactical employment. Where does the fight go down? Are we talking a 1:1 ratio of Su-35 vs. F/A-18Es?” the veteran naval aviator asked. “I’d give the edge on tactical employment to Western-trained aviators for the time being, though other nations are working hard to close the gap.”
> 
> One of the Air Force pilots concurred. “Our training and skill of USAF pilots will keep us ahead of the game, but they are certainly closing the gap,” one of the Raptor pilots said.
> 
> Overall, it would be fair to assess the Su-35 as an extremely capable fighter—perhaps the best Russia or the Soviet Union has ever developed. “But it’s not a Raptor and will be hamstrung by the two key elements of fifth-gen war…stealth, and broad spectrum sensor fusion,” said the senior military official.



Reference:
Su-35 Flanker-E Multirole Fighter - Airforce Technology
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/


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## batmannow

S.U.R.B. said:


> Following is a fine writing about the recently introduced capabilities in the the most advanced version of Flanker.
> It include the pilots' opinion and their assessment regarding it's deployment against the western platforms.
> A good read for the newbies.
> 
> Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest
> 
> _Dave Majumdar has been covering defense since 2004. He currently writes for the U.S. Naval Institute, Aviation Week and The Daily Beast, among others. Majumdar previously covered national security issues at Flight International, Defense News and C4ISR Journal. Majumdar studied Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and is a student of naval history._
> 
> 
> 
> Reference:
> Su-35 Flanker-E Multirole Fighter - Airforce Technology
> http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/


Doesn't matters who majumdar Gupta is , for us he is just another influential , educated Indian trying his best for his mother land by using his pen ?
Even if any hypothetical way USA announce to give raptors to Pakistan , his assessment will be against to cause its Pakistan which will be geting that ?
So again it doesn't matters where you live , or educated in , in sub continent its all rivalries ?


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## Quwa

batmannow said:


> @mods
> Find better peoples to your think tanks ?
> At least who can be on topic instead of going personal just becuse of any disagreement on the issue they react like nursurry kids ?lolzzz


If PAF manages to succeed in acquiring Su-35 and inducts it, then our friends to the east will say, "but the pakis only got the least popular version. Su-30MKI Super Flanker is definitely the better fighter in every respect. I'd much rather be flying a MiG-21bis against a Su-35. Plus J-31 is based on JF-17, which is based on F-7, the worst MiG-21 variant."

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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This might be the Chinese AESA Radar and similar cockpit as JF-17 for SU-35 giving them commonality. EW suit might also be an advance western one along with the ejection seat...



Chinese AESA may be cheaper then IBRIS-E and will offer better capabilities but cannot say about what range it will offer because no one truly knows what power output it will have, in range IBRIS-E may be better. Pakistan can at least get J-11D AESA customized for Su-35, if deals go through and PAF is not satisfied with IBRIS-E for its future needs.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> Chinese AESA may be cheaper then IBRIS-E and will offer better capabilities but cannot say about what range it will offer because no one truly knows what power output it will have, in range IBRIS-E may be better. Pakistan can at least get J-11D AESA customized for Su-35, if deals go through and PAF is not satisfied with IBRIS-E for its future needs.


The capabilities of J11D's Aesa is also not published hence its capability is also not known... There are some news that PAF may be looking for a modified AESA developed for the J20....

Realistically speaking the Italians might also be interested in selling an upgraded version of their AESA. The one that is on offer is for the JF-17. If this is permitted then this would really boost the capabilities of PAF. 

Martin baker seats that are being produced by Pakistan would definitely be part of the SU-35...


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## illusion8

abdulbarijan said:


> Do me a favor,* when you quote me ... don't cherry pick from part of 2 lined sentence with a 4 lined explanation ... *
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, if you went through my post it had an answer for your point .. so please review it again .. and if you have a point then please do contribute further ...




As I said..except for that single line statement - there's nothing else worthy to discuss - rest are just conjectures and extrapolations of that single line.


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## abdulbarijan

illusion8 said:


> As I said..except for that single line statement - there's nothing else worthy to discuss - rest are just conjectures and extrapolations of that single line.



There is one thing though ... you completely glossed over ALL the points that I made regarding your hypothesis/theory whatever ... 

But there is one thing though .. that you forgot when you were doing this analysis ... talks for delivery were on with which country ??? --- thats right .. It was Pakistan he was talking about ... The same DFM which you quoted and admitted that his is the only statement worthy to be discussed ... and then we had a PAF officer confirming the talks with Janes .. 

So, Like I said before ... the extended use theory of yours, is not really even a theory because it has way too many loopholes as indicated in my previous posts... So while there is talk and analysis of Russia delivering through China ... the end customer in this case however ... is still the PAF ..


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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The capabilities of J11D's Aesa is also not published hence its capability is also not known... There are some news that PAF may be looking for a modified AESA developed for the J20....
> 
> Realistically speaking the Italians might also be interested in selling an upgraded version of their AESA. The one that is on offer is for the JF-17. If this is permitted then this would really boost the capabilities of PAF.
> 
> Martin baker seats that are being produced by Pakistan would definitely be part of the SU-35...



Why martin baker ejection seats? Russia don't have good ejection seats?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> Why martin baker ejection seats? Russia don't have good ejection seats?


These seats are manufactured by Pakistan.... However if the Russian's provide some next generation stuff that has been proven then perhaps PAF might be interested. 

Remember the F-7's were using the Chinese seats but PAF chose the martin baker ones in them. The same is the case with most of the aircraft today in PAF fleet.


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## aliyusuf

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Martin baker seats that are being produced by Pakistan would definitely be part of the SU-35...





ACE OF THE AIR said:


> These seats are manufactured by Pakistan.... However if the Russian's provide some next generation stuff that has been proven then perhaps PAF might be interested.
> 
> Remember the F-7's were using the Chinese seats but PAF chose the martin baker ones in them. The same is the case with most of the aircraft today in PAF fleet.



The Russian Zvezda-36 series and newer model of ejection seats which have been installed on the Russian MiGs and Sukhois for the last couple of decades are considered (even by some of the most critical western experts) as being among the most reliable and safest in the world.

A dated link from Flightglobal : Zvezda ejection seat proves its worth - again

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## illusion8

abdulbarijan said:


> There is one thing though ... you completely glossed over ALL the points that I made regarding your hypothesis/theory whatever ...
> 
> But there is one thing though .. that you forgot when you were doing this analysis ... talks for delivery were on with which country ??? --- thats right .. It was Pakistan he was talking about ... The same DFM which you quoted and admitted that his is the only statement worthy to be discussed ... and then we had a PAF officer confirming the talks with Janes ..
> 
> So, Like I said before ... the extended use theory of yours, is not really even a theory because it has way too many loopholes as indicated in my previous posts... So while there is talk and analysis of Russia delivering through China ... the end customer in this case however ... is still the PAF ..



Yeah..about the PAF officer? I just saw a tweet with no reference no name, I would assume that such a landmark deal if true would carry a wee bit more weight then some random reference.

Good to see that you are back to square one - that is what I was in discussion with oscar about - the "delivery" would have most likely meant russian longtime delivery news to the chinese..which would have been bundled together with posting of the jets in pakistan to guard chinese interests.

You and I and oscar very well know that there haven't been any kind of indication or movement towards pakistan getting some russian jets from both sides - and the DFM statements was out of the blue. One just has that singular statement to base their analysis on. We all are basing our opinions from that singular statement.


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## VelocuR

Mark Sien said:


> If PAF manages to succeed in acquiring Su-35 and inducts it, then our friends to the east will say, "but the pakis only got the least popular version. Su-30MKI Super Flanker is definitely the better fighter in every respect. I'd much rather be flying a MiG-21bis against a Su-35. Plus J-31 is based on JF-17, which is based on F-7, the worst MiG-21 variant."



Hilarious I second that, let them think that way, we move on.

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## dave

Why pakistan go for Su-35 try PAK-FA is more advance. If they offer Su-35 pakistan.
India not going for PAK-FA. India have choice like more Rafeal or F-35


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## abdulbarijan

illusion8 said:


> Yeah..about the PAF officer? I just saw a tweet with no reference no name, I would assume that such a landmark deal if true would carry a wee bit more weight then some random reference.
> 
> Good to see that you are back to square one - that is what I was in discussion with oscar about - the "delivery" would have most likely meant russian longtime delivery news to the chinese..which would have been bundled together with posting of the jets in pakistan to guard chinese interests.
> 
> You and I and oscar very well know that there haven't been any kind of indication or movement towards pakistan getting some russian jets from both sides - and the DFM statements was out of the blue. One just has that singular statement to base their analysis on. We all are basing our opinions from that singular statement.



No mate, the reference is of Janes and an official they quoted ..

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

So, while talks have been confirmed ... nothing more has been released ... and for someone who has been observing our procurement patterns ... it will most likely get real quiet and they will let things simmer down before something is revealed ...

*The fact however remains, that with CPEC and EEZ the need for a jet with longer legs and more payload is there ... and it has to be a 4/4+ gen* fighter because of what the IN is fielding and if you look at the MKI with the range and with that the different options of attack the IAF is provided with ...

While_* India as we know will try to not let Pakistan have this jet and will lobby all that it can to not let this deal happen ... the influence as we know (of India over Russia) is decreasing as the "all weather friends" are not so all weather friends anymore since India is diversifying its suppliers .. *_On the other hand .. Russian's are also business men and know very well that the_* Indian market is more or less a cash cow now*_ ... so they will try to milk away all they can ...

Then you have to consider that they are looking for customers of SU-35, and other weapons .. and Pakistan also happens to be a good potential market ... add in the advantages of cooperation the Russians can get being a part of CPEC ..

_*In the end, the logical conclusion at this point is that the Russians will try to have a win-win at all fronts ... be it the Pakistani, Indian or the Chinese ... so all one can do now is wait to see what unfolds in the future ... *_

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## nadeemkhan110

dave said:


> Why pakistan go for Su-35 try PAK-FA is more advance. If they offer Su-35 pakistan.
> India not going for PAK-FA. India have choice like more Rafeal or F-35


 India have invested 5 Billion $ in pak FA or T-50 project and Su-35 is almost 5th gen jet like su-35 technology is of 5th generation but not stealth that's why its 4++ gen jet.
and india now wants technology transfer of pak fa but Russia is not ready but Russia is going to create HAL AMCA 5th gen jet for india in india.


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## majid mehmood

guys many Indians are posting that this deal cannot complete
so here some points to make them think that this deal is very much possible

*1 Indians that it would be rejected by Putin ?
but they forgot when one of prominent Putin aide told that they will sell su 35 to pak so it is easy to say that Putin can agree

2 India would pressure Russia ?
Russia knows that India is diversifying it market and in 10 years it is forecasted that India would imports of arm from Russia would remain 20-30%. one more thing was the case with rd93 

3 many told that none senior paf officer chief met together in maks 2015?
of course they could not participate (as it was useless) due to arm embargo which was finished afterward but after removal of arm embargo many senior paf officer even pa chief Raheel went Russia and was presented guard of honor

4 Indians told that no news of confirm sale of mi 35?
news of of draft sending of purchased 4 heli and could be more is confirmed by many people so dont say "no confirm reports of mi 35 to pak" 
*
btw guys u know there are many things but these are the main points to counter any Indian who neglects that SU 35 DEAL TO PAKISTAN
and pls dont take to much notice of my english

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## VelocuR

@That Guy @batmannow weird lolzz??

Can you both please stop fighting to avoid ruining this thread ?


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## araz

That Guy said:


> Everything I've said is on topic, and a reply to your extremely off topic remarks.


@batmannow and @That Guy.
Stop bickering like little children . Put the other party on your ignore list for a few days and move on. This has now gone beyond a joke so please stop it.
A


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## airmarshal

Bang Galore said:


> Unlike many countrymen of mine, I'm not inclined to dismiss the talk of Su35 sale to Pakistan as just hot air. Nor am I buying the argument that this is simply a way to get India to buy more Russian planes. If Russia needed to go down that route, there can be many ways apart from showing this red flag. That would be a clumsy way of doing things & the Russians are certainly not stupid. There is something that might be happening here that is not yet very clear and the surmising happening here does not quite cut it.
> 
> Regardless of whether such a sale takes place, I believe that the cold war positioning is now history. This is the clearest indication _(the offer itself) _of a state of flux that will likely exist for a substantial period of time. We live in interesting times.
> 
> 
> 
> F 15 is a heavier fighter, twin engined.



Thank you for a mature and substantial point of view. This is a very interesting time. Who could have thought such re alignment going on in the region only a decade ago!

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## That Guy

araz said:


> @batmannow and @That Guy.
> Stop bickering like little children . Put the other party on your ignore list for a few days and move on. This has now gone beyond a joke so please stop it.
> A


I was merely amusing myself. I apologize if it got out annoying.



VelocuR said:


> @That Guy @batmannow weird lolzz??
> 
> Can you both please stop fighting to avoid ruining this thread ?


Again, I was replying out of entertainment, but apologize none the less.

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## Bossman

nadeemkhan110 said:


> India have invested 5 Billion $ in pak FA or T-50 project and Su-35 is almost 5th gen jet like su-35 technology is of 5th generation but not stealth that's why its 4++ gen jet.
> and india now wants technology transfer of pak fa but Russia is not ready but Russia is going to create HAL AMCA 5th gen jet for india in india.



$5 Billon investment in Pak FA, my foot. Totally incorrect information. BTW Russian are not even allowing them to test fly the plane.

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## batmannow

Bossman said:


> $5 Billon investment in Pak FA, my foot. Totally incorrect information. BTW Russian are not even allowing them to test fly the plane.


That cash is just to look or draw plane,s pic on the paper ? Lolzz



That Guy said:


> I was merely amusing myself. I apologize if it got out annoying.
> 
> 
> Again, I was replying out of entertainment, but apologize none the less.


Lolzzz


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## Blue Marlin

*Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?*







Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter Aircraft

Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.

While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.

A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.

One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.

The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.

Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.

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## majid mehmood

guys the lovely maneuver

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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> *Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?*
> 
> View attachment 260659
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Su-35 Fighter Aircraft
> 
> Russia may be working out a deal to sell Su-35 aircraft simultaneously to Pakistan and China, making it the biggest order of the most advanced in-production fighter in Russia.
> 
> While Pakistani officials admitted to an international journal last week that they are considering buying SU-35, confirming earlier reports emanating from Russia, China is already in talks to buy 24 Su-35 aircraft from Russia.
> 
> A Russian source told Defenseworld.net, given that Russian weapon sales to Pakistan was a sensitive issue with its traditional partner, India, a way would have to found in which it would not appear that Russia was selling aircraft which are more advanced than the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> One of the ways being considered was that the aircraft would be sold to China in stock form and then transferred to Pakistan after necessary modifications as per Islamabad's requirements. The source clarified that it was too early to speculate on the nature of the transaction and a lot depended on decisions taken at the political level. However, it was for sure that Moscow would not do anything that would disturb its relationship with New Delhi, the source added.
> 
> The Su-35 comes with NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine which are more advanced than the radar and engine on board the Su-30MKI with India.
> 
> Another reason for Russia to sell to Pakistan, either directly or through China is the fear that the latter copies Russian platform and components and sells to foreign customers, the foremost among them is Pakistan.



Interesting article, do you have the link?

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> Interesting article, do you have the link?




there you go pal,

Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?
if you read the 3rd paragraph it would give you the source.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Blue Marlin said:


> there you go pal,
> 
> Is Russia Offering China, Pakistan A Su-35 Aircraft Package Deal?
> if you read the 3rd paragraph it would give you the source.


What if the Package deal comes out to be a superior aircraft then the one Russian Airforce is operating? 

If you read the F-16 block 52 thread you would find that PAF also modified the F-16's to their specific requirements hence when flown by test pilots the US found that these were superior to the ones operated by US Airforce. Still these were not as advance as to the Block 60's.


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What if the Package deal comes out to be a superior aircraft then the one Russian Airforce is operating?
> 
> If you read the F-16 block 52 thread you would find that PAF also modified the F-16's to their specific requirements hence when flown by test pilots the US found that these were superior to the ones operated by US Airforce. Still these were not as advance as to the Block 60's.


well i do find it hard to believe, but i aint going to argue. if what you say is true then it must be by configuration only, not technologically superior. this is understandable, as pakistan has been to hardcore wars before and would know what it wants. Pakistan could have a unique su-35 variant to pakistans specific requirements, but it wont be as advanced as the su-35 that the Russian airforce, but it may be configured better to meet a combat scenario.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Blue Marlin said:


> well i do find it hard to believe, but i aint going to argue. if what you say is true then it must be by configuration only, not technologically superior. this is understandable, as pakistan has been to hardcore wars before and would know what it wants. Pakistan could have a unique su-35 variant to pakistans specific requirements, but it wont be as advanced as the su-35 that the Russian airforce, but it may be configured better to meet a combat scenario.


Along with AESA Radar and some other goodies developed for the J-20 or J-31's.... It is your guess to what is superior... Yes no doubt it would also feature Chinese and Pakistani weapons along with Russian.,, That could be the configuration you are stating... Todays war AWACS give the picture so that would also be an added advantage. 

I remember to read in one of the Red Flag Blue flag IAF was reported to be fighting a war where the fight was not happening due to some integration problem regarding their equipment and the data link. This was later attributed to the system mismatch between the Russians and the American ones which PAF would not want as it is operating SAABs and Chinese platforms together.


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## Indika

Sell the fighters and with hold the spares during crucial time. Russia can do a badla pur on pakistan for supporting unholy crap in afghanistan.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

eyeswideshut said:


> Sell the fighters and with hold the spares during crucial time. Russia can do a badla pur on pakistan for supporting unholy crap in afghanistan.


Do you think it is possible with the Chinese manufacturing all the parts that Pakistan would not have enough spares once the SU's come?

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## Indika

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do you think it is possible with the Chinese manufacturing all the parts that Pakistan would not have enough spares once the SU's come?


Chinese might be able to provide 75% of the components but rest 25% i believe will be critical technology only russia will have. Spare parts is a big business infact thats where the margins are high. 

Seriously why would you trust chinese for quality components over the original manufacturer ?. Buying bad quality spares will not only increase the cost but also increase the downtime. 

By the way these are jet fighters not our scooters to leave it in workshop and catch a public transport .


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Along with AESA Radar and some other goodies developed for the J-20 or J-31's.... It is your guess to what is superior... Yes no doubt it would also feature Chinese and Pakistani weapons along with Russian.,, That could be the configuration you are stating... Todays war AWACS give the picture so that would also be an added advantage.
> 
> I remember to read in one of the Red Flag Blue flag IAF was reported to be fighting a war where the fight was not happening due to some integration problem regarding their equipment and the data link. This was later attributed to the system mismatch between the Russians and the American ones which PAF would not want as it is operating SAABs and Chinese platforms together.



if you use a bit of logic here the su-25 airframe may theoretically be able to hold a j20 radar, well it would be obvious pakistan would like Chinese weapons also possibly Brazilian, south African, european and american weapons too awacs do give a picture in a war but also the adversary would also use the awacs radar signature as a identifier and would fire a radar homing missile.


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## Tameem

I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.
Denis Alipov, Deputy Chief of Mission in the Russian Embassy in New Delhi

Ties with Pakistan not against India | Russia & India Report

Strange....this deputy chief mission of Russian embassy in Delhi either is a complete arsshole or very mischievous to his hosts indeed.

The point is when both Pakistani and Russian officials acknowledging about the talks on SU35 between them, then how can he denies them plainly.

It would be more appropriates if he states that Pakistan does asks for SU35s but Russian Federation refuse, that's more understandable and logical.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

eyeswideshut said:


> Chinese might be able to provide 75% of the components but rest 25% i believe will be critical technology only russia will have. Spare parts is a big business infact thats where the margins are high.
> 
> Seriously why would you trust chinese for quality components over the original manufacturer ?. Buying bad quality spares will not only increase the cost but also increase the downtime.
> 
> By the way these are jet fighters not our scooters to leave it in workshop and catch a public transport .



Worst case scenario !

Chinese are making 100 percent copies of Russian aircraft so it is very possible that they can also produce the 25% technology that Russia might not be willing to sell. However it is also clear that if PAF decides it would have certain safeguards to this problem and some alternate would be found...Most likely transfer of technology. 

Sir if the quality is not good then the cost is also cheaper so one can replace the item many times in the same amount however aviation industry does not work as automotive industry. In aviation products are required to be made under strict rules and regulations to provide safety and reliability. In the past counter fit products have ended in the most secure aircraft of the world and nothing went wrong with it...


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## waz

After today's news I hope people just ease off a little with the whole SU-35 talk.


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## ice_man

Ties with Pakistan not against India | Russia & India Report

*Ties with Pakistan not against India*
28 September 2015 EMBASSY OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION IN NEW DELHI
In a wide-ranging interview, Denis Alipov, Deputy Chief of Mission in the Russian Embassy in New Delhi, outlined his views on the Russian relationship with India and the situation in South Asia.
Facebook407



INDIA, RUSSIA, INDO-RUSSIAN COOPERATION





Denis Alipov. Source:Rossotrudnichestvo
*The general sentiment, in India and more in Russia, is that the relations between the two countries have lost their earlier warmth. Do you agree with this, and if yes, why do you think this has happened?*

The Russian-Indian relations during the days of the Soviet Union were omnipresent indeed but it is essentially wrong to argue that the two nations have cooled off each other since. In fact, having disengaged from ideological background our relationship has become more sincere and warmer than before. These are the sentiments that overwhelmingly prevail in Russia and we are very proud of the unprecedented level of trust and friendship with India. This is true of relationship between the leaders of the two countries irrespective of who is in power in Moscow or New Delhi. This is equally true of feelings of the general public. Trust is the very essence of our relations, something that does not come overnight but is nurtured for years and tested at the times of hardship. If some started to believe otherwise I wish to testify as a longstanding insider officially and personally that they are fundamentally wrong.

Russia and India pursue the same goals on international arena of which the recent BRICS and SCO summits in Ufa are indicative. Prime Minister Modi will visit Russia again by the end of the year for the bilateral summit expected to generate fresher ideas to deepen cooperation at both the global and bilateral levels. Russia is very extensively engaged with India in politics and economy although the latter has been less effective for objective reasons. I would say both the countries are rediscovering each other economically in terms of applying the capacity of private SMEs and start-ups while successfully maintaining traditional cooperation in such areas as hydroelectric power, mechanical engineering, metallurgy, oil and gas industry, petrochemicals etc.

The most promising has been the area of nuclear energy. Russia is the only country practically collaborating with India in the nuclear energy sector. Two state-of-the-art nuclear power units with the world safest light water reactors have already been constructed at the Kudankulam site. Unit 1 is operational and unit 2 is being prepared for attaining criticality. Preparatory works for the construction of units 3 & 4 at the same site are underway.

I would like to reiterate that the Russian engineers have successfully implemented all post-Fukusima safety requirements outlined by the Indian Regulator AERB. A very important factor is the economic viability of the Russian projects. The Kudankulam units offer the most competitive price for electricity strictly corresponding to the figures stipulated by the Indian Government.

It is noteworthy that the Russian-Indian collaboration in the nuclear sphere is not limited to NPP construction. There are joint projects in nuclear science and on aspects of nuclear fuel cycle. Russian and Indian scientists effectively cooperate in research at the Russian Joint Institute of Nuclear Research in Dubna and within the framework of such international projects like ITER programme (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor).

*How many reactors will Russia eventually build in India?*

I would say as many as you wish us to.

The Strategic Vision for strengthening cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy signed during the bilateral summit in December 2014 provides for the construction of at least 12 units within the next two decades. This includes upto 6 more units at Kudankulam and units at other sites in India. We are expecting the Indian Government to soon announce and allocate a new site for these purposes. At Kudankulam Russian and Indian experts gained practical experience of construction and commissioning of the Russian-designed reactors. This platform will allow us to effectively continue with the construction of new units.

*How do you view the ties in the defence sector?*

In terms of volume and investments this is by far the most advanced area of bilateral cooperation. The value of our business in military hardware with India is over USD 30 billion, more than India has with all other foreign partners put together. And this business continues to flourish.

Moreover, Russian-Indian military technical cooperation is based on transfer of technology and mutual development of hi-tech platforms, licensed production of modern Russian equipment in India and modernisation of Russian weapons, which are in service with the Indian Armed Forces. This kind of extremely versatile cooperation is hors concours too. By all means Russia and India has a unique partnership within the global military market serving as an enviable example of the combination of trust and benefit.

Currently we are exploring new vistas of cooperation in research and development not only on GtoG but also on BtoB basis. Russian companies are in talks with Reliance Defence and Aerospace (RDA) for possible joint production of ships, submarines and aircraft under the transfer of technology. We have been deeply engaged with HAL for many years, which is India’s major public sector company and Russia’s time-tested and reliable partner. We are looking forward to expanding ties with Indian companies, which have been selected to participate in the “Make in India” programme. Russia is the only country, which has so far started working under this scheme. Again, while others talk, Russians do. Isn’t it the proof of the true strategic character of partnership? I think it is.

*What do you think is holding back the signing of the final contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter?*

Obviously such a sophisticated aircraft cannot be made overnight. It involves a long process of research and development, which is going on smoothly. This project is identified as a priority one by both countries, and we are committed to complete it as soon as possible.

*There is a lot of talk about Russia-Pakistan cooperation. There have been high-profile visits on both sides and agreements have been signed for defence and military cooperation. How do you view this growing relationship in view of your historical ties with India?*

Relations, which Russia develops with countries of the world, are not directed against anybody. Particularly, Russia’s policy in South Asia is consistently based on principles of promotion of regional stability and non-interference into the affairs of sovereign states and bilateral disputes. India is our historic and special and privileged strategic partner, and we have always been mindful and will continue to consider in the first place the Indian security concerns. This is our natural choice. The unique level of mutual trust and understanding on almost every issue of the international agenda should leave no scope for doubt about the future of the Russian-Indian ties even for sceptics.

Hence the relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature will never have any designs against India. Islamabad is a very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism fuelled by ISIS and rampant drug production. These factors require collective counteraction and target-oriented capacity building. And these are exactly the reasons for our recent arrangements with Islamabad on the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters. I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.

*It was reported in the media that when Pakistan chief of army staff General Raheel Sharif visited Russia, a defence and military technical cooperation agreement was signed between the two countries.*

The agreement you mentioned pertains to the military cooperation and provides for a general framework for interaction between the armed and security forces and capacity building.

*The relations between India and Pakistan are not very good. Why don’t you informally facilitate talks between the two countries?*

Russia entirely supports the normalization of relations between India and Pakistan and the early and peaceful resolution of all contentious issues, including trans-border terrorism and Kashmir. However, we are not in a position to interfere in any bilateral dispute unless we get a specific consensus-based request or invitation. Certainly, we acknowledge the existing legal architecture, which includes the 1972 Shimla Agreement and the 1999 Lahore Declaration urging the two parties to resolve their issues bilaterally. Russia hopes that New Delhi and Islamabad will show further restraint and continue to improve their relations according to the Ufa spirit.

*Don’t you fear that unresolved bilateral problems between India and Pakistan may spill over in SCO when the two sides join it formally?*

Both India and Pakistan are welcome as full members of the SCO. The political decision to this effect was unanimously taken and the membership process was launched at the SCO Summit in Ufa in July 2015. The. This step will drastically increase the capacity and effectiveness of the organization in tackling of the growing regional challenges and threats. With India and Pakistan on board, prospects of deeper integration, transport and energy infrastructure and diversified economic and financial cooperation within the SCO will obviously expand.

According to one of the basic principles of the SCO Charter the member-countries do not import bilateral issues into the SCO agenda. The same is expected of India and Pakistan. On the contrary, there is a feeling that the SCO may become an additional platform for narrowing down of the differences between the two countries through cooperation.

*What does Russia think of China’s One Road One Belt initiative?*

We support the Chinese initiative as a promising opportunity to promote trans-regional connectivity in Eurasia and improve linkages between Asia and Europe. A lot of attention is given to the development of transportation and energy potential of the Central Asian countries, from which the neighbouring regions will also benefit. There is a great scope for joint endeavours, and we would welcome the growing Indian participation.

Meanwhile increased efforts are being made to expedite the North-South Transport Corridor project, which is designed to enhance connectivity and economic cooperation between South and Central Asia and Europe and harmoniously blends with the Chinese initiative.

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## Mani2020

@Windjammer windy any update/info ? Or its just another bubble going to burst soon !!


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## Windjammer

Mani2020 said:


> @Windjammer windy any update/info ? Or its just another bubble going to burst soon !!



As you probably know that PAF checked out both the Typhoon and Rafale....ACM Tanvir even personally tested out the EFT but reportedly it didn't fit into PAF's doctrine, so let's see.......!!!!

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## Great Sachin

Russia Bakra banaa rahaa hai.....
Do you think ...Modi will let it happen....
without India nod ...Pakistan can not buy anything from Russia....



Windjammer said:


> As you probably know that PAF checked out both the Typhoon and Rafale....ACM Tanvir even personally tested out the EFT but reportedly it didn't fit into PAF's doctrine, so let's see.......!!!!


can you afford Typhoon or Rafale?



Mani2020 said:


> @Windjammer windy any update/info ? Or its just another bubble going to burst soon !!


there was no bubble to burst....when we Indian were saying that Russia can not avoid India over Pakistan...you guys were thinking that we are tolling


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## Path-Finder

Windjammer said:


> As you probably know that PAF checked out both the Typhoon and Rafale....ACM Tanvir even personally tested out the EFT but reportedly it didn't fit into PAF's doctrine, so let's see.......!!!!



If Su-35 is turned down as well then what other option could there be?


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## Windjammer

Great Sachin said:


> Russia Bakra banaa rahaa hai.....
> Do you think ...Modi will let it happen....
> without India nod ...Pakistan can not buy anything from Russia....
> 
> 
> can you afford Typhoon or Rafale?
> 
> 
> there was no bubble to burst....when we Indian were saying that Russia can not avoid India over Pakistan...you guys were thinking that we are tolling

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## Mani2020

Windjammer said:


> As you probably know that PAF checked out both the Typhoon and Rafale....ACM Tanvir even personally tested out the EFT but reportedly it didn't fit into PAF's doctrine, so let's see.......!!!!


Yes I know that it was around the same time when paf was also looking at gripen too but after all the effort paf ended up buying f16s ...

I wonder whether not choosing EFT was because it didn't fit paf doctrine or whether paf couldn't afford it...because I think affordability was the major issue ...even if it wasn't and twin engine was the issue than same is the case with su-35 or j-11 ...going by twin engine issue paf won't be able to add any new platform but f16s or may be j10 because all other aircrafts including rafale eft j11 and sukhoi are twin engine

One the other hand if eft doesn't fit our doctrine and Rafael has been chosen by India besides su35 still seems a far fetched thing considering what Russian official in India said and j11 still has export issues...what are the options paf have besides f16s or j10s ...I believe paf should now think beyond f16 and j10 also doesn't offer much compared to f16s besides most of the weapons are similar to jf17


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## Windjammer

Great Sachin said:


> Russia Bakra banaa rahaa hai.....
> Do you think ...Modi will let it happen....
> without India nod ...Pakistan can not buy anything from Russia....


More like Russia is making you look like a silly Cow with the way it screwed you with the Aircraft Carrier and doesn't even allow you near the PAK FA.



> can you afford Typhoon or Rafale?


Obviously it's not Pakistan that went into a nose dive from 126 to just 36 with still no end in sight.
I am talking a decade earlier, in the end we stuck with Block-52s.

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## Super Falcon

Still we need SU 35 it offers unlimited options


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## Windjammer

Mani2020 said:


> Yes I know that it was around the same time when paf was also looking at gripen too but after all the effort paf ended up buying f16s ...
> 
> I wonder whether not choosing EFT was because it didn't fit paf doctrine or whether paf couldn't afford it...because I think affordability was the major issue ...even if it wasn't and twin engine was the issue than same is the case with su-35 or j-11 ...going by twin engine issue paf won't be able to add any new platform but f16s or may be j10 because all other aircrafts including rafale eft j11 and sukhoi are twin engine
> 
> One the other hand if eft doesn't fit our doctrine and Rafael has been chosen by India besides su35 still seems a far fetched thing considering what Russian official in India said and j11 still has export issues...what are the options paf have besides f16s or j10s ...I believe paf should now think beyond f16 and j10 also doesn't offer much compared to f16s besides most of the weapons are similar to jf17


I know for a fact that back then when PAF was checking it out, the Typhoon had issues with it's voice command system.
I don't believe the then PAF air chief along with some senior pilots was just here in UK for a joy ride in the EFT.

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## Mani2020

Windjammer said:


> I know for a fact that back then when PAF was checking it out, the Typhoon had issues with it's voice command system.
> I don't believe the then PAF air chief along with some senior pilots was just here in UK for a joy ride in the EFT.



I am not questioning that but after so many good aircrafts paf considerd back then still for every aircraft paf had some excuse like gripen it was a strange statement made by ACM tanvir when he said we can't handle the complex technology used in gripen.. I wonder was that too the case with eft as even on paper eft is more advance than gripen.... besides as far as I know out of all the aircrafts paf loved rafales but it's sad that like mirage 2000s instead of paf liking before her adversary even thought about them still ended up in their inventory and like always we had to live with f16s... 

I believe as much as India is spending and diversifying paf is running out of options... rafales are already with our adversary... sooner or later they are going to get it... su-35 is a big if.... j11 export issues... eft with this price tag surely out of reach... gripen too much American involvement besides fragility involved in relations... used f16s are an option but still we can't just keep adding them because we had to find something more advance... first we had mki to deal with now rafales and not to forget about mirages and mig 29s... they by no mean are less competitors especially mirages... paf is stuck I guess with limited budget and limited options... something has to come from somewhere before j31 ( in case we are getting them)



Windjammer said:


> I know for a fact that back then when PAF was checking it out, the Typhoon had issues with it's voice command system.
> I don't believe the then PAF air chief along with some senior pilots was just here in UK for a joy ride in the EFT.



I am not questioning that but after so many good aircrafts paf considerd back then still for every aircraft paf had some excuse like gripen it was a strange statement made by ACM tanvir when he said we can't handle the complex technology used in gripen.. I wonder was that too the case with eft as even on paper eft is more advance than gripen.... besides as far as I know out of all the aircrafts paf loved rafales but it's sad that like mirage 2000s instead of paf liking before her adversary even thought about them still ended up in their inventory and like always we had to live with f16s... 

I believe as much as India is spending and diversifying paf is running out of options... rafales are already with our adversary... sooner or later they are going to get it... su-35 is a big if.... j11 export issues... eft with this price tag surely out of reach... gripen too much American involvement besides fragility involved in relations... used f16s are an option but still we can't just keep adding them because we had to find something more advance... first we had mki to deal with now rafales and not to forget about mirages and mig 29s... they by no mean are less competitors especially mirages... paf is stuck I guess with limited budget and limited options... something has to come from somewhere before j31 ( in case we are getting them)



Windjammer said:


> I know for a fact that back then when PAF was checking it out, the Typhoon had issues with it's voice command system.
> I don't believe the then PAF air chief along with some senior pilots was just here in UK for a joy ride in the EFT.



I am not questioning that but after so many good aircrafts paf considerd back then still for every aircraft paf had some excuse like gripen it was a strange statement made by ACM tanvir when he said we can't handle the complex technology used in gripen.. I wonder was that too the case with eft as even on paper eft is more advance than gripen.... besides as far as I know out of all the aircrafts paf loved rafales but it's sad that like mirage 2000s instead of paf liking before her adversary even thought about them still ended up in later's inventory and like always we had to live with f16s... 

I believe as much as India is spending and diversifying paf is running out of options... rafales are already with our adversary... sooner or later they are going to get it... su-35 is a big if.... j11 export issues... eft with this price tag surely out of reach... gripen too much American involvement besides fragility involved in relations... used f16s are an option but still we can't just keep adding them because we had to find something more advance... first we had mki to deal with now rafales and not to forget about mirages and mig 29s... they by no means are less competitors especially mirages... paf is stuck I guess with limited budget and limited options... something has to come from somewhere before j31 ( in case we are getting them)

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## Windjammer

Mani2020 said:


> I am not questioning that but after so many good aircrafts paf considerd back then still for every aircraft paf had some excuse like gripen it was a strange statement made by ACM tanvir when he said we can't handle the complex technology used in gripen.. I wonder was that too the case with eft as even on paper eft is more advance than gripen.... besides as far as I know out of all the aircrafts paf loved rafales but it's sad that like mirage 2000s instead of paf liking before her adversary even thought about them still ended up in their inventory and like always we had to live with f16s...



Once again, the only hint i picked up from a very reliable source was that, ''Our initial requirement for 40 Block-52s is still pending, which has to be fulfilled with either same or similar capability platform''.
The Air chief also disclosed that PAF is looking bat options from both East and West. So in essence the hunt is on.
As for the so called high end operator, some interesting news from today. 

Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> Once again, the only hint i picked up from a very reliable source was that, ''Our initial requirement for 40 Block-52s is still pending, which has to be fulfilled with either same or similar capability platform''.
> The Air chief also disclosed that PAF is looking bat options from both East and West. So in essence the hunt is on.
> As for the so called high end operator, some interesting news from today.
> 
> Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft


I think if hunt is on and SU 35 r out of equation than EF fit the bill for navel Role price wise they almost similar


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## ice_man

SU35 bubble has gone burst just like the U boat bubble or the turkish helos 

the story continues.................

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## aliyusuf

The story is still fresh and new ... lets wait and see ... there will be many crests and troughs, twists and turns ... patience is required.


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## Muhammad Omar

ice_man said:


> SU35 bubble has gone burst just like the U boat bubble or the turkish helos
> 
> the story continues.................



It didn't burst yet....


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## trident2010

ice_man said:


> SU35 bubble has gone burst just like the U boat bubble or the turkish helos
> 
> the story continues.................



It is not 100% gone. The best bet is to get 2-3 squadrons of F-16 Blk 60 IN allong with same number of JH-7B. This will give PN required capability without changing the infrastructure or training regime.


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## GURU DUTT

trident2010 said:


> It is not 100% gone. The best bet is to get 2-3 squadrons of F-16 Blk 60 IN allong with same number of JH-7B. This will give PN required capability without changing the infrastructure or training regime.


the main problem is not the intention or russia or USA but the purchasing capacity of PAF if they have funds then a couple of squads of even Mig 35s for them are more than enof and they will find it pretty easy to absorb deu to comminality in engines .... but the problem is money .... money talk rest/false claims walks


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## ghauri05

GURU DUTT said:


> the main problem is not the intention or russia or USA but the purchasing capacity of PAF if they have funds then a couple of squads of even Mig 35s for them are more than enof and they will find it pretty easy to absorb deu to comminality in engines .... but the problem is money .... money talk rest/false claims walks


I don't think it's money issue...even if Russia has denied SU-35,it shows that PAF has come out of it's mental blockage of Single Engine fighters and is interested in getting one...N you don't have any expensive interest like that,without resources.!!!
Even if SU-35,is not made available to PAF...i hope PAF will go for some other twin engine plane in near future..!!!


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## GURU DUTT

ghauri05 said:


> I don't think it's money issue...even if Russia has denied SU-35,it shows that PAF has come out of it's mental blockage of Single Engine fighters and is interested in getting one...N you don't have any expensive interest like that,without resources.!!!
> Even if SU-35,is not made available to PAF...i hope PAF will go for some other twin engine plane in near future..!!!


so if money is not the issue then why isnt PAF ordering chinese flankers wich have AESA radar and AESA based EW suits and internal jammers and are said to be flying with chinese built engines?


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## asad71

One thing is certain, the Russians have found out the Indians for what they are. Now on we may not see much movement of Russian hi tech eqpt into India.


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## GURU DUTT

asad71 said:


> One thing is certain, the Russians have found out the Indians for what they are. Now on we may not see much movement of Russian hi tech eqpt into India.


what if i told you we are still in deals for hi tech defence equipment from russia running into a few dozen billion dollars 

and since russian ammbassador (who is officailly russian goverment spokesperson) in new delhi have already quashed all such fancy rumors or is that internet fanboys know more than the russian officals themselfs


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan Su 35 le ya na le lekin aik baat done hai k bhot saare indians ki neendain haram kr di humne.

Just imagine PAF pilot on su 35,

This reminds me of my old signature

"I agree india might be having military equipment/quantitative superiority over Pakistan but they cannot import soldiers/pilots from israel or russia"

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## GURU DUTT

farhan_9909 said:


> Pakistan Su 35 le ya na le lekin aik baat done hai k bhot saare indians ki neendain haram kr di humne.
> 
> Just imagine PAF pilot on su 35,
> 
> This reminds me of my old signature
> 
> "I agree india might be having military equipment/quantitative superiority over Pakistan but they cannot import soldiers/pilots from israel or russia"


salaam R&D sirji congrats for such a intellegent and enlightning port  

but owr army had showed in past that even without western or russian or israeli cutting edge tech we can achieve owr goals had that been not the same today kashmir and much parts of gujrat , rajasthan , punjab , haryana & entire J&K would be pakistani terriotory but whats the ground realities 

i hope you are able to understand what im trying to say .... cheers mate

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## Arsalan

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you we are still in deals for hi tech defence equipment from russia running into a few dozen billion dollars


Then it wont surprise anybody, it should not. Russians have been supplying both China and India simultaneously! Both Arabs and Israel uses Boeing and LM machines. So NO, if you think it will/should surprise anyone you are mistake.

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## GURU DUTT

Arsalan said:


> Then it wont surprise anybody, it should not. Russians have been supplying both China and India simultaneously! Both Arabs and Israel uses Boeing and LM machines. So NO, if you think it will/should surprise anyone you are mistake.


exactly my earlier point that be it russia , france or USA they are nothing but defence contractors and they will sell there best products where they know they can have an uniturrupted and steady supply of "cash" for there goods there is no such thing as friendship or morals in the current world order


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## Arsalan

GURU DUTT said:


> exactly my earlier point that be it russia , france or USA they are nothing but defence contractors and they will sell there best products where they know they can have an uniturrupted and steady supply of "cash" for there goods there is no such thing as friendship or morals in the current world order


True indeed!
There are just a very few strategic partnerships, a very few!! Rest is all money business.

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## GURU DUTT

Arsalan said:


> True indeed!
> There are just a very few strategic partnerships, a very few!! Rest is all money business.


there are no strategick partnerships its onli owr weaknesses and ego that make us see it thru or opposite to such claims in the end its all about money and power


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## asad71

GURU DUTT said:


> what if i told you we are still in deals for hi tech defence equipment from russia running into a few dozen billion dollars
> 
> and since russian ammbassador (who is officailly russian goverment spokesperson) in new delhi have already quashed all such fancy rumors or is that internet fanboys know more than the russian officals themselfs



Doesn't alter my views a bit. Fyi, BAF is also seeking Su-35 or Mig-35 but our lady doesn't want to upset her masters.

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> there are no strategick partnerships its onli owr weaknesses and ego that make us see it thru or opposite to such claims in the end its all about money and power


Sure & India isnt is the cash king of the World ?
Instead it the poorest king ?lolzz


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## Manticore

Сухой Су-35С

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## HawkerHunter

India's worst nightmare if deal is signed by Pakistan and Russia regarding Su-35.


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## IceCold

Will the plane come with Russian hardware as well regarding the ammunitions or we intend to use Chinese weaponry on it?


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## Hurter

HawkerHunter said:


> India's worst nightmare if deal is signed by Pakistan and Russia regarding Su-35.



Indians have started playing their dirty game by spreading rumors about the deal.


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## 45'22'

HawkerHunter said:


> India's worst nightmare if deal is signed by Pakistan and Russia regarding Su-35.


If wishes were horses



IceCold said:


> Will the plane come with Russian hardware as well regarding the ammunitions or we intend to use Chinese weaponry on it?


Nothing is out yet


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## HawkerHunter

45'22' said:


> If wishes were horses
> 
> 
> Nothing is out yet


These at not merely wishes...



45'22' said:


> If wishes were horses
> 
> 
> Nothing is out yet





45'22' said:


> If wishes were horses
> 
> 
> Nothing is out yet





45'22' said:


> If wishes were horses
> 
> 
> Nothing is out yet


Pakistan for surely will go for new technology. Either Russian or Chinese.


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## 45'22'

HawkerHunter said:


> These at not merely wishes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan for surely will go for new technology. Either Russian or Chinese.


Make that only Chinese


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## danger007

all the best guys ... for su 35... this isn't first time we are discussing about speculated deal....


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## HawkerHunter

45'22' said:


> Make that only Chinese


It was not Pakistan who approached Russia. Russian offered Su-35. And Chinese technology is always available.


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## A.M.

I doubt that any deal will be finalized, this is just geopolitical maneuvering in my opinion from both Pakistan and Russia.


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## 45'22'

HawkerHunter said:


> It was not Pakistan who approached Russia*. Russian offered Su-35.* And Chinese technology is always available.


Give me a link which can validate this....


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## HawkerHunter

A.M. said:


> I doubt that any deal will be finalized, this is just geopolitical maneuvering in my opinion from both Pakistan and Russia.


Same is my opinion. Russia will be still remembering 1988. Any time after the deal they can show their back. Pakistan must
avoid Russians



45'22' said:


> Give me a link which can validate this....


Give me a link that says it was Pakistan who approached Russia.


----------



## A.M.

HawkerHunter said:


> Same is my opinion. Russia will be still remembering 1988. Any time after the deal they can show their back. Pakistan must
> avoid Russians


Russia wants to keep India honest. Pakistan wants to do same with US.

That is all that this rumor is about. Has anyone even conducted an analysis to see if we can afford these machines?


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## 45'22'

HawkerHunter said:


> Same is my opinion. Russia will be still remembering 1988. Any time after the deal they can show their back. Pakistan must
> avoid Russians
> 
> 
> Give me a link that says it was Pakistan who approached Russia.


I didnt claimed that 
You said the contrary 

You are making things out of nowhere


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## HawkerHunter

A.M. said:


> Russia wants to keep India honest. Pakistan wants to do same with US.
> 
> That is all that this rumor is about. Has anyone even conducted an analysis to see if we can afford these machines?





A.M. said:


> Russia wants to keep India honest. Pakistan wants to do same with US.
> 
> That is all that this rumor is about. Has anyone even conducted an analysis to see if we can afford these machines?


Pakistan is done with US. We just need to manage alternatives so that we can declare we are independent



45'22' said:


> I didnt claimed that
> You said the contrary
> 
> You are making things out of nowhere


Check Russian TV. Person attached with their PM said this. Alan Warnes also said the same.


----------



## 45'22'

HawkerHunter said:


> Pakistan is done with US. We just need to manage alternatives so that we can declare we are independent
> 
> 
> Check Russian TV. Person attached with their PM said this. Alan Warnes also said the same.


Give me a link


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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> More like Russia is making you look like a silly Cow with the way it screwed you with the Aircraft Carrier and doesn't even allow you near the PAK FA.
> 
> 
> Obviously it's not Pakistan that went into a nose dive from 126 to just 36 with still no end in sight.
> I am talking a decade earlier, in the end we stuck with Block-52s.



I bet you are mastermind in trolling... the way you use words to insult ...... in my view we can say US screwed errrrr in the name of war..... Russia bargained cash more than required at the end we have what we need.... US get what it wanted do.... it just pakistan who is struggling. . previously US then china and now Russia....

please read Interview with the Minister-Counsellor and Deputy Chief of Mission of the Russian Embassy Mr Denis Alipov


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## shah1398

Goenitz said:


> spec please...does su35 discharge smoke? plus its maintenance time ? does it have onboard diagnostic (like cars and jf 17) which with just computer can tell the perfromance of sensors, gadgets etc ?
> 
> but too much is said about maintaince time of sukhois... i wonder if, not check manually, whta take that maintaince that much time (part replaacing only can take that much time 1 hour flight after 2-3 hours of maintenance)...



What i know is that in case MKI it was not actually the maintenance time but the reliability issues which kept quite high percentage of them on ground. Was it problems with troubleshooting or lack of spare support/relevant testers, i cant comment on that. On the other hand Chinese and Indonesia had reportedly almost no issues like that. So may be our Indian friends can enlighten us on that.


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## Windjammer

danger007 said:


> I bet you are mastermind in trolling... the way you use words to insult ...... in my view we can say US screwed errrrr in the name of war..... Russia bargained cash more than required at the end we have what we need.... US get what it wanted do.... it just pakistan who is struggling. . previously US then china and now Russia....
> 
> please read Interview with the Minister-Counsellor and Deputy Chief of Mission of the Russian Embassy Mr Denis Alipov



First acquire the comprehension to what i was replying to.
You see it's in India's nature to make noises at every Pakistani weapon purchase, obviously it seems Indian leaders have no confidence in their armed forces that they have hands in air feeling vulnerable at any such deal that Pakistan initiates. While your own MMRCA deal is in a nosedive, how do you conclude that it's Pakistan that is struggling, while at one point the earlier versions of F-16s were withheld due to our nuclear programme, in the end we not just got the embargoed F-16s but the latest ones as well, recently the Viper Gunships were also released by US, while we are checking out the Chinese Z-10 and in the process of receiving Mi-35 from Russia.....so in essence we can purchase from any market,

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## danger007

"Windjammer said:


> First acquire the comprehension to what i was replying to.
> You see it's in India's nature to make noises at every Pakistani weapon purchase, obviously it seems Indian leaders have no confidence in their armed forces that they have hands in air feeling vulnerable at any such deal that Pakistan initiates. While your own MMRCA deal is in a nosedive, how do you conclude that it's Pakistan that is struggling, while at one point the earlier versions of F-16s were withheld due to our nuclear programme, in the end we not just got the embargoed F-16s but the latest ones as well, recently the Viper Gunships were also released by US, while we are checking out the Chinese Z-10 and in the process of receiving Mi-35 from Russia.....so in essence we can purchase from any market,




India didn't make a single statement regarding so called Su 35 deal... when the media asked Mr Denis Alipov... he responded to them... no such deal on talks or not going to happen. ... and it was posted official Russian govt Website. ... yet again many pak members making noise like you are doing now...


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## Windjammer

danger007 said:


> India didn't make a single statement regarding so called Su 35 deal... when the media asked Mr Denis Alipov... he responded to them... no such deal on talks or not going to happen. ... and it was posted official Russian govt Website. ... yet again many pak members making noise like you are doing now...


Neither did Pakistan issued any statement, the news first came from Russia and was also carried by other International media including the reputable IHS Jane's, quoting the Russian source, while Pakistani members may be reacting to the news, however it's Indians like you who seem to be choking on it.
Here read the original source and try not to mischief yourself.




> The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Pakistan.

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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> Neither did Pakistan issued any statement, the news first came from Russia and was also carried by other International media including the reputable IHS Jane's, quoting the Russian source, while Pakistani members may be reacting to the news, however it's Indians like you who seem to be choking on it.
> Here read the original source and try not to mischief yourself.


like me???? lolz show me where i reacted like that.. i merely responded when people accusing us when I/we posted the article here... some questioned credibility. .. some questioned his rank... I just responded... he speaks for Russian govt stance unlike the minister who is free to make statements. ..... I didn't bring Cow and screwing etc like you did.... because i know my limitations. ... unlike you...

I didn't even posted one posts in those threads as i have no info about deal... so i just read those article. .. I responded only after some sources....


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## Windjammer

danger007 said:


> like me???? lolz show me where i reacted like that.. i merely responded when people accusing us when I/we posted the article here... some questioned credibility. .. some questioned his rank... I just responded... he speaks for Russian govt stance unlike the minister who is free to make statements. ..... I didn't bring Cow and screwing etc like you did.... because i know my limitations. ... unlike you...
> 
> I didn't even posted one posts in those threads as i have no info about deal... so i just read those article. .. I responded only after some sources....


Dude, it were the Russians who first broke this news, when it appeared in the Pakistani press, they were just quoting the original source, in any case, this is not the first time Russia has offered it's war planes to Pakistan, even back in the 90s, they offered the SU-27s.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Dude, it were the Russians who first broke this news, when it appeared in the Pakistani press, they were just quoting the original source, in any case, this is not the first time Russia has offered it's war planes to Pakistan, even back in the 90s, they offered the SU-27s.



What's the news in the PAF circles....?

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## Nitin Goyal

From where Pakistani will get money to buy such expensive planes ?


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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> Dude, it were the Russians who first broke this news, when it appeared in the Pakistani press, they were just quoting the original source, in any case, this is not the first time Russia has offered it's war planes to Pakistan, even back in the 90s, they offered the SU-27s.


I never argued it was made up by Pakistanis. ... 


read these posts... i just responded to them...




Basel said:


> MIG is loosing ground, to protect it Russian were ready to sell Mig-35 but Pakistan was interested in Su-35. If Su-35 deals go through then MIG (5th gen design) may be offered (probably single engine) so it will allow Russia to sell both countries.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Here is link which shows that MIG want to develop 5th gen plane.
> 
> Russia’s MiG to Develop Fifth-Generation Jet Fighter
> 
> @Windjammer @Horus





AtiF Malang said:


> official statement hahahaha
> Defence ministry in this case is The Official.
> Ambassador has nothing to do with the sales .
> 
> 
> Brother Russia need us more than we need Russia .
> It is their wish fom USSR's day to be friendly with Pakistan
> Karachi steel mill is an Example .
> After mother of all the deals failure countries learnt the lesson .
> in futur France Russia and USA will be just looking at indian $ . Partnership and trust is something else


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## AtiF Malang

Windjammer said:


> Dude, it were the Russians who first broke this news, when it appeared in the Pakistani press, they were just quoting the original source, in any case, this is not the first time Russia has offered it's war planes to Pakistan, even back in the 90s, they offered the SU-27s.


Indians think Russia is their colony. 
In 90's Su 27 was one of their best machines . 
Indians believe that Russia never offered Su 35 to PAF . 
If after evaluations PAF is not satisfied and so how reject Su 35 . Allah Forbids Indian in PDF will start saying Su 35 never offered you were all fanboys lier etc etc

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## massattack

Manticore said:


> Сухой Су-35С


Beauty.. love it. and Now will have it too 



AtiF Malang said:


> Indians think Russia is their colony.
> you were all fanboys lier etc etc



i appreciate your patriotism, but i urge you not to give blanket statements.... when we can defend with decency no need to provoke


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## Last Samuri

BOYS NO OFFENCE 

BUT I DID SAY THAT I WAS 99% CERTAIN THIS SU35 talk was nothing more than a mistake by media people in pakistan.

russia needs indian money to keep their arms industry competitive. THAT IS A FACT.

SU35 is a very expensive machine to buy and to maintain. WAY OUT OF PAF reach financially. 

paf acquring SU35 from Russia is akin to india buying F22 RAPTORS from USA ... its just not feasible politically financially and realistically ...

I WILL REPEAT AGAIN. PAF most likely next jet deal will be either 18 block 52 IF INDIA GETS 36 rafales 

or J10 x 36 planes from china 

CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE

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## HawkerHunter

Last Samuri said:


> BOYS NO OFFENCE
> 
> BUT I DID SAY THAT I WAS 99% CERTAIN THIS SU35 talk was nothing more than a mistake by media people in pakistan.
> 
> russia needs indian money to keep their arms industry competitive. THAT IS A FACT.
> 
> SU35 is a very expensive machine to buy and to maintain. WAY OUT OF PAF reach financially.
> 
> paf acquring SU35 from Russia is akin to india buying F22 RAPTORS from USA ... its just not feasible politically financially and realistically ...
> 
> I WILL REPEAT AGAIN. PAF most likely next jet deal will be either 18 block 52 IF INDIA GETS 36 rafales
> 
> or J10 x 36 planes from china
> 
> CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE[/
> 
> 
> Last Samuri said:
> 
> 
> 
> BOYS NO OFFENCE
> 
> BUT I DID SAY THAT I WAS 99% CERTAIN THIS SU35 talk was nothing more than a mistake by media people in pakistan.
> 
> russia needs indian money to keep their arms industry competitive. THAT IS A FACT.
> 
> SU35 is a very expensive machine to buy and to maintain. WAY OUT OF PAF reach financially.
> 
> paf acquring SU35 from Russia is akin to india buying F22 RAPTORS from USA ... its just not feasible politically financially and realistically ...
> 
> I WILL REPEAT AGAIN. PAF most likely next jet deal will be either 18 block 52 IF INDIA GETS 36 rafales
> 
> or J10 x 36 planes from china
> 
> CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Pakistan will upgrade Fleet of JF 17's and than it will either go for J 10 or J 31. But the fact still remains there, Russia still offered us Su-35, it means apart from deal they want good relationships.
Click to expand...


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## Viper0011.

ZAC1 said:


> russia is not going to sell high tech equipment to pakistan , they only want india back on table but mean while during this game pakistan will get some stuff like choppers,rpg 29



This is a much bigger game than you can comprehend. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the show. India will be getting very pissed off on and off, including the most recent events at the UN's till today


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## HawkerHunter

Viper0011. said:


> This is a much bigger game than you can comprehend. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the show. India will be getting very pissed off on and off, including the most recent events at the UN's till today


If these games with Russia are successful and India gets pissed off. Still how long we will be dependent on US. We need to alter our Foreign Policy.


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## Viper0011.

Last Samuri said:


> BOYS NO OFFENCE
> 
> BUT I DID SAY THAT I WAS 99% CERTAIN THIS SU35 talk was nothing more than a mistake by media people in pakistan.
> russia needs indian money to keep their arms industry competitive. THAT IS A FACT.
> SU35 is a very expensive machine to buy and to maintain. WAY OUT OF PAF reach financially.
> paf acquring SU35 from Russia is akin to india buying F22 RAPTORS from USA ... its just not feasible politically financially and realistically ...



You are right. The PAF has decided to sell all of her JFT's, -16's and all on EBAY. The only jet they'll keep is the remainder F-7's. They believe like the Bangladeshi AF, these are PLENTY for them to fight India. When all the F-7's are down, then the brave pilots will shoot down the Indian jets through Archers. No SAMs needed either. Great, historical old school tactics. The Archers !!! Who can counter the mighty India?? and how can Pakistan afford SU-35's even with $ 20 billion + in their savings account?? Why would Russia give them anything?? Good old Archers with SD-10 seeker is the answer!!!

Do I know something and I am not telling??? YES   


This game is MUCH beyond your imagination!!! Let it go.

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## HawkerHunter

Viper0011. said:


> You are right. The PAF has decided to sell all of her JFT's, -16's and all on EBAY. The only jet they'll keep is the remainder F-7's. They believe like the Bangladeshi AF, these are PLENTY for them to fight India. When all the F-7's are down, then the brave pilots will shoot down the Indian jets through Archers. No SAMs needed either. Great, historical old school tactics. The Archers !!! Who can counter the mighty India?? and how can Pakistan afford SU-35's even with $ 20 billion + in their savings account?? Why would Russia give them anything?? Good old Archers with SD-10 seeker is the answer!!!
> 
> Do I know something and I am not telling??? YES
> 
> 
> This game is MUCH beyond your imagination!!! Let it go.


This was good..awesome. Brother but still I think Pakistan will not go for Russian technology.


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## Rahil khan

Viper0011. said:


> You are right. The PAF has decided to sell all of her JFT's, -16's and all on EBAY. The only jet they'll keep is the remainder F-7's. They believe like the Bangladeshi AF, these are PLENTY for them to fight India. When all the F-7's are down, then the brave pilots will shoot down the Indian jets through Archers. No SAMs needed either. Great, historical old school tactics. The Archers !!! Who can counter the mighty India?? and how can Pakistan afford SU-35's even with $ 20 billion + in their savings account?? Why would Russia give them anything?? Good old Archers with SD-10 seeker is the answer!!!
> 
> Do I know something and I am not telling??? YES
> 
> 
> This game is MUCH beyond your imagination!!! Let it go.


Known Unknowns...Pretty exciting.


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## Last Samuri

Viper resorting to sarcasm..

Common trait when people are busted and made to look stupid.

20 billion in forex is peanuts buddy for Emergency trading funds.


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## bdslph

after the latest report i really dont think su35 is going to Pakistan


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## ziaulislam

Last Samuri said:


> BOYS NO OFFENCE
> 
> BUT I DID SAY THAT I WAS 99% CERTAIN THIS SU35 talk was nothing more than a mistake by media people in pakistan.
> 
> russia needs indian money to keep their arms industry competitive. THAT IS A FACT.
> 
> SU35 is a very expensive machine to buy and to maintain. WAY OUT OF PAF reach financially.
> 
> paf acquring SU35 from Russia is akin to india buying F22 RAPTORS from USA ... its just not feasible politically financially and realistically ...
> 
> I WILL REPEAT AGAIN. PAF most likely next jet deal will be either 18 block 52 IF INDIA GETS 36 rafales
> 
> or J10 x 36 planes from china
> 
> CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE


no its not.. its cheaper than f-16..we can if we really want it acquire 36 odd aircrafts...
questions is how bad we need it
its like india buying rafale not f-22..
which it struggling to buy


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## ghauri05

GURU DUTT said:


> so if money is not the issue then why isnt PAF ordering chinese flankers wich have AESA radar and AESA based EW suits and internal jammers and are said to be flying with chinese built engines?


I have read on this forum,that j-11 has some export issues...like china is not allowed to export it...may be that's the problem!!


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## Last Samuri

no zia

PAF buying SU35B is way beyond PAF financially AND POLITICALLY

RAFALE is on a plate FOR IAF French are begging IAF to buy it.

RUSSIA WILL NEVA SELL YOU SU35

JUST LIKE USA will SELL F35 to IAF but never SELL THE RAPTORS F22


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## silent hawk

I do not agree that buying SU35 is beyond PAF financially and politically.

If we can afford the block 52 F-16s then we can afford the SU35.

The real change is the political scenario. Russia is once again becoming a force to recon with at the global level. The recent bombing in Syria is proof in this regard. It is also developing East Russia which when coupled with China's development of the Economic Corridor means that the route to Arabian Sea through China would be more viable and stable then the route through Afghanistan. India is aware of this hence the strong opposition of the corridor.

Those who think that this deal cannot go through should understand that in International Relations there are no friends or enemies, only mutual benefits. In the emerging scenario strong ties between Russia and Pakistan are mutually beneficial hence there are good chances that this deal would materialize.

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## abdulbarijan

Last Samuri said:


> no zia
> 
> PAF buying SU35B is way beyond PAF financially AND POLITICALLY
> 
> RAFALE is on a plate FOR IAF French are begging IAF to buy it.
> 
> RUSSIA WILL NEVA SELL YOU SU35
> 
> JUST LIKE USA will SELL F35 to IAF but never SELL THE RAPTORS F22



You really are clueless aren't you ....

*Back in 2012 your precious Russian "friends" were quoted as saying that you can "spit on their face" if they "sold military equipment to your enemies" --- Here we are --- just 3 years later --- and a deal for MI-35 is already confirmed ...*

Do look up what happened with the SU-35 news ... *the news was never started by the Pakistani side ... *Sputnik International broke the news first ... where the Deputy FM of RUSSIA was talking about talks of SU-35 with Pakistan ... just a week before in an article Ilya Kramnick a well respected writer for Sputnik was branding PAF as a potential buyer for the SU-35 .. only after that was the IHS Janes article with the PAF confirming the initial talks was released ... _and now we have the Russian embassy inside India saying that it was all just a media hype ... testing the waters is what I call it .... if we refer back to 2012 ... _

So please stick to the idea that everything revolves around you because you've got cash ... you've screwed over the french for a billion + dollar deal with the PAF for JFT avionics ... because of the MMRCA .. now the MMRCA is screwed to the point where rumors of french reviving the JFT deal are on ... you have the Russians who were so pi$$y about the MMRCA deal they were suggesting a Mig-35 sale to PAF ... add in whats happened to the Pak-FA deal ....

There is one more thing though, economy can get flat lined due to political instability or bad business conditions , as we've witnessed in the case of Pakistan after 06/07 .... what happens to those "hard to maintain" ... "expensive" 200+ flankers if India is caught in such a situation in a longer period of time... as we've already seen ... killings of muslims for eating meat ... the revival of the sikh movement of Khalistan, blocking hurriat leaders to go to the UN, and the IOK kashmiris hoisting Pakistani flags in more or less every protest that they conjure up, add in the MAOISTS and the red corridor ... Those are some serious fault lines which if escalate up to a certain scale can cause quite a few head aches ...

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## Quwa

It is puzzling that neither PAF, the Russian mission in Pakistan nor Moscow itself have thrown cold water on the talks, you'd think it'd happen.


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## Last Samuri

Abdul

My 99% certainty is gained on what I know and see from both Russia & Pakistan and the changing geopolitical map.

THE BIG DIFFERENCE my insight is not clouded by paitriotic Pakistan eyes head and heart . I SEE REALITY

Which is the following.

Pakistan has only brought fighters with soft loans from china (jf17) OR grant AID from USA (F16/52)
IN LAST TEN YEARS.

Pakistan has brought fighters in cash but second hand fighters ready for mothballing be it jordans old F16s or Libyan mirage 5s

One SU35 will cost 4 times the cost of one Thunder
or 50% more than brand new F16/52

Russia WILL NOT GIVE YOU GRANT AID OR SOFT LOANS they are broke themselves...

Finally india will almost certainly put Russia enormous political pressure not to sell advanced version of their own mainstay fighter the SU30MKI

PS today the indian GDP and military budget is larger than RUSSIA. indian influence is huge over Russia something only an indian will understand . FGFA and other projects depend on indian money ...

LIKE I SAID ABDUL we will see whose was right AND who was WRONG soon.

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## abdulbarijan

Last Samuri said:


> Abdul
> 
> My 99% certainty is gained on what I know and see from both Russia & Pakistan and the changing geopolitical map.
> 
> THE BIG DIFFERENCE my insight is not clouded by paitriotic Pakistan eyes head and heart . I SEE REALITY
> 
> Which is the following.
> 
> Pakistan has only brought fighters with soft loans from china (jf17) OR grant AID from USA (F16/52)
> IN LAST TEN YEARS.
> 
> Pakistan has brought fighters in cash but second hand fighters ready for mothballing be it jordans old F16s or Libyan mirage 5s
> 
> One SU35 will cost 4 times the cost of one Thunder
> or 50% more than brand new F16/52
> 
> Russia WILL NOT GIVE YOU GRANT AID OR SOFT LOANS they are broke themselves...
> 
> Finally india will almost certainly put Russia enormous political pressure not to sell advanced version of their own mainstay fighter the SU30MKI
> 
> PS today the indian GDP and military budget is larger than RUSSIA. indian influence is huge over Russia something only an indian will understand . FGFA and other projects depend on indian money ...
> 
> LIKE I SAID ABDUL we will see whose was right AND who was WRONG soon.



Did you bother to read what I said, or was it just ... "Aha somebody responded so lemme give him a piece of my mind" ..

I would be among the skeptics of the SU-35 deal from our side along side many, that in of itself nullifies the "Patriotic Pakistani eyes" that you claim .... ofcourse your the only objective poster out here ... duhhh 

What is most interesting is your reasoning ... _see the skepticism from our side either stems from the usage of the current doctrine ... the maintenance issues, and the performance issues when it comes to operating jets from 3 different origins in an age which is focused on net centric warfare .. _Those are the pieces that will have to be negotiated one way or another if the deal is to go through ...

Your "objective eyes" -- on the other hand -- only see "Indian economy" and "Indian influence" as the hindrance to that deal ... totally objective and unbiased opinion right ??? 

That is what I and many others from this forum contest ... you have to face it ... _the world does not revolve around Indian economy ... Just look up last 7-8 years ... you put up pressure to cancel the supply of RD-93 to Pakistan ... yet its operational on 3 of our squadrons and is expected to be on all of our JFT's_ ... The JFT avionics deal being cancelled ... where you were going for a 10+ Billion dollar deal ... and exerted pressure on the french to cancel it ... good for you ... they did cancel it ... but what now ?? --- Now your biggest deals i.e Pak-FA and Rafale are effectively cut by a factor of THREE! ... add to the misery there are rumors of the avionics deal to be revived ...

_Do you really think that it will go totally smooth & well when you lobby for suppliers to cancel such and such deal showing that your large deals will make up for what they loose and then cutting your own deals by a third of their planned size ._.. way to go ... that is exactly the reason why you have the the russians talking about the SU-35 to PAF ..

Just look at the sheer surprise and butt hurt the Indians showed at the mere news of initial talks ... this shows the level of ignorance that the Indian side lives in where every thing happens according to what they will ... keep living the dream ... the more long you stay in that dream world ... the better it is for us ...

_and lastly, regarding the financial aid -- you do know that providing safer, smaller cost effective routes for supplies to a country is a business transaction and not "aid" -- do look up Fareed Zakaria's interview with Mushy regarding the subject_ ... and as far as the economic conditions go ... Pakistan is recovering ... As much as you'd hate to admit it ... but Pakistan has been a war torn country with among the worst environments for business, just a little stability is what started the recovery process ... and lets not forget the turn around of our economy from the verge of being broke in Mushy's era .... So don't worry about us ... It's you who you should be more concerned given the fault lines that are present in your country ...

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## waz

I don't believe this jet is coming to Pakistan. There are just way too many issues with this i.e. very sanction prone, expensive beyond belief, Indian leverage and the absence of any Russia aircraft in the PAF.
Go with J-11's or J-15's, that's a far better option.

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## airmarshal

OMG! Indian obsession with Pakistan. Read the interview of Russian diplomat and its all about Pakistan.

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## Quwa

waz said:


> I don't believe this jet is coming to Pakistan. There are just way too many issues with this i.e. very sanction prone, expensive beyond belief, Indian leverage and the absence of any Russia aircraft in the PAF.
> Go with J-11's or J-15's, that's a far better option.


There's another angle in that Pakistan could end up paying a license fee to Russia in exchange for making it OK for China to export a J-11/J-15 variant to Pakistan.

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## waz

Mark Sien said:


> There's another angle in that Pakistan could end up paying a license fee to Russia in exchange for making it OK for China to export a J-11/J-15 variant to Pakistan.



Now that sounds very reasonable and possible.


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## silent hawk

waz said:


> I don't believe this jet is coming to Pakistan. There are just way too many issues with this i.e. very sanction prone, expensive beyond belief, Indian leverage and the absence of any Russia aircraft in the PAF.
> Go with J-11's or J-15's, that's a far better option.



I agree with you that the deal may not materialize. However in my opinion J-11 or J-15 is not a better option.
Sir Kaiser has already explained the advantages of the Su-35. The Chinese versions are not that capable.
Secondly there is the issue of armament. The Adder and Alamo are much more potent then the SD-10. But the real requirement is of the Archer. The F-16 Block 52 does not have three dimensional thrust vectoring and because we not have AIM-9X hence at close range the Su-30 has advantages. Acquisition of the Su-35 is hence the better option.

The deal has already come a long way and hopefully would go through despite Indian opposition. Fingers crossed.


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## massattack

silent hawk said:


> I do not agree that buying SU35 is beyond PAF financially and politically.
> 
> If we can afford the block 52 F-16s then we can afford the SU35.
> 
> The real change is the political scenario. Russia is once again becoming a force to recon with at the global level. The recent bombing in Syria is proof in this regard. It is also developing East Russia which when coupled with China's development of the Economic Corridor means that the route to Arabian Sea through China would be more viable and stable then the route through Afghanistan. India is aware of this hence the strong opposition of the corridor.
> 
> Those who think that this deal cannot go through should understand that in International Relations there are no friends or enemies, only mutual benefits. In the emerging scenario strong ties between Russia and Pakistan are mutually beneficial hence there are good chances that this deal would materialize.


Inshahallah and all nay sayers will have a heart attack on day the su35s land on paf airbase



silent hawk said:


> I agree with you that the deal may not materialize. However in my opinion J-11 or J-15 is not a better option.
> Sir Kaiser has already explained the advantages of the Su-35. The Chinese versions are not that capable.
> Secondly there is the issue of armament. The Adder and Alamo are much more potent then the SD-10. But the real requirement is of the Archer. The F-16 Block 52 does not have three dimensional thrust vectoring and because we not have AIM-9X hence at close range the Su-30 has advantages. Acquisition of the Su-35 is hence the better option.
> 
> The deal has already come a long way and hopefully would go through despite Indian opposition. Fingers crossed.


the deal will materialize man dont you worry. Inshallah. just have faith in our armed forces and the new country foreign policy powered by our armed forces.

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## Sankpal

Russia earning too much money from India.....

fighter planes
making new corgo plane
tanks
helping on submarines
nuclear power plant
list may go on.......….….........

mi35 was not a issue for India so Russia selling to pak. but, su35 is different and it's not gonna happen....

believe or not but it's true...

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## Asli Lahori1

Sankpal said:


> Russia earning too much money from India.....
> 
> fighter planes
> making new corgo plane
> tanks
> helping on submarines
> nuclear power plant
> list may go on.......….….........
> 
> mi35 was not a issue for India so Russia selling to pak. but, su35 is different and it's not gonna happen....
> 
> believe or not but it's true...



Is there any Indian out their left to object on this deal?

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## Sankpal

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Is there any Indian out their left to object on this deal?



dear, u need to check other threats if India buying something from other country. 

by the way, i m saying logical...... it's all about money and Russia is not Soviet union.....

Russia wants cash money... does pak have or do billions dollar business with Russia... ans is no..

Russia wouldn't going to lose India for selling su35 to pak..... not logical and financely suit to Russia .

if not trolling, saying only truth...


----------



## Asli Lahori1

Sankpal said:


> dear, u need to check other threats if India buying something from other country.
> 
> by the way, i m saying logical...... it's all about money and Russia is not Soviet union.....
> 
> Russia wants cash money... does pak have or do billions dollar business with Russia... ans is no..
> 
> Russia wouldn't going to lose India for selling su35 to pak..... not logical and financely suit to Russia .
> 
> if not trolling, saying only truth...



Who asked your opinion? If you get out of India you will find out that world doesn't revolve around India. Your P. M. came over here and not one single network mentioned him.

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## HimalyanKingdom

Close this thread, it is basically a half truth thread and rest is misinformation.


----------



## Asli Lahori1

HimalyanKingdom said:


> Close this thread, it is basically a half truth thread and rest is misinformation.



Here comes another one!


----------



## Sankpal

HimalyanKingdom said:


> Close this thread, it is basically a half truth thread and rest is misinformation.



most funny part is..it's running on 177 pages.......all about imaginations..... no one wants be logical ...except few fellow Pakistani brothers...

well I can say only best of luck them on!y.... bye bye


----------



## massattack

Sankpal said:


> Russia earning too much money from India.....
> 
> fighter planes
> making new corgo plane
> tanks
> helping on submarines
> nuclear power plant
> list may go on.......….….........
> 
> mi35 was not a issue for India so Russia selling to pak. but, su35 is different and it's not gonna happen....
> 
> believe or not but it's true...


wrong it was offered to you but since you open tendered russia was not offered the contract and its probably pissed at Indian desire to opt for a western jet fighter. so it will sell to us. no question about it or you have forgotton the deal regarding mi-35 hind?

w


Sankpal said:


> most funny part is..it's running on 177 pages.......all about imaginations..... no one wants be logical ...except few fellow Pakistani brothers...
> 
> well I can say only best of luck them on!y.... bye bye


we dont need your best wishes we need the su35's and we will get them for striking deep in land and maritime patrolling purposes.

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## aftab_s81

Why NOT Mig-35 for PAF?
Mig-35 is roughly equivalent to F-16 B-50+, also it shares same engine of JFT.
Any thoughts?


----------



## massattack

aftab_s81 said:


> Why NOT Mig-35 for PAF?
> Mig-35 is roughly equivalent to F-16 B-50+, also it shares same engine of JFT.
> Any thoughts?


the recent display of advance maneuvering at the airshow by su 35 makes it a prime candidate. the mig 35 is still underdevelopment and could be a potential candidate in future.


----------



## aftab_s81

massattack said:


> the recent display of advance maneuvering at the airshow by su 35 makes it a prime candidate. the mig 35 is still underdevelopment and could be a potential candidate in future.



I have read somewhere that with mig-35, the maintenance issues are solved, also the added benefit of same engine as that of JFT, make it very favorite. we can get rid of american dependency in this way. what is the price tag for mig-35, BTW?


----------



## airmarshal

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Is there any Indian out their left to object on this deal?



And their argument is so predictable 

- Russia economy and weapon industry dependent on India 
- India has so much money all world powers will bow to them, forgeting their geopolitical interests
- Pakistan has no money. 

Stop arguing with these retards.

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## massattack

aftab_s81 said:


> what is the price tag for mig-35, BTW?


Click on the below link it says 30m us dollar a piece.

Welcome to Aircraft Compare


----------



## Wolf

To assess the seriousness of russian offer, keep following things in mind.

1) annual trade between india and russia
2) what is balance of trade position between india and russia
3) number of defence or other projects going on between india and russia and their net worth.

if the aforementioned issues are not in favour of russia i.e. if trade is tilted in favour of india or russian exports to india constitute a minor part of overall russian exports or to put it simply if india needs russia more than russia needs india THEN we will get Su 35s otherwise there is less chance even if russia wants to sell these birds, it may not be in a position to do so.

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## aliyusuf

Wolf said:


> To assess the seriousness of russian offer, keep following things in mind.
> 
> 1) annual trade between india and russia
> 2) what is balance of trade position between india and russia
> 3) number of defence or other projects going on between india and russia and their net worth.
> 
> if the aforementioned issues are not in favour of russia i.e. if trade is tilted in favour of india or russian exports to india constitute a minor part of overall russian exports or to put it simply if india needs russia more than russia needs india THEN we will get Su 35s otherwise there is less chance even if russia wants to sell these birds, it may not be in a position to do so.




Geo political and strategic roadmap and the reality of China and Russia combo. These are the two aspects missing from your assessment.

Instead of analyzing this in a Russia-Pakistan vs Russia-India scope, a more astute, realistic and objective approach would be to analyze this in the scope of China-Russia vs West scope. The two are cooperating and strengthening ties with countries at various geo-political theatres in world to counter the west, which is increasingly vying to aggressively marginalize the two from the future global strategic scene.

In this context the two seem to be on page to utilize Pakistan (China more so) to achieve their future economic and strategic objectives in this region.

India is increasingly leaning strategically towards the west. So in the scheme of things to come ... mid to long term goals of India and the China-Russia combo are increasingly becoming at loggerheads.

So in order to emphasize what I am trying to say ... I will paraphrase your post to what in my humble opinion is the true situation ... here goes ...

_To assess the seriousness of russian offer, keep following things in mind.

1) annual trade between china and russia
2) what is balance of trade position between china and russia
3) number of defence or other projects going on between china and russia and their net worth._

Kindly ask yourself, whether China is worth more to Russia or is it India. The deal might go through if it is the former and absolutely won't happen if its the latter.

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## massattack

besides russians know chinese always make dulplicates so pakistan will eventually get the birds no matter what. inshallah so Russia thinks if thats whats going to happen better sell it first hand and make some profit


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## aliyusuf

massattack said:


> besides russians know chinese always make dulplicates so pakistan will eventually get the birds no matter what. inshallah so Russia thinks if thats whats going to happen better sell it first hand and make some profit



In my humble opinion, the best possible deal that can come out of all this is that PAF gets J-11D with the Russian Saturn AL-117 (Su-35s) engines. Just imagine ... an AESA (1760+ TRMs) powered J-11D that will have super-cruise, TVC (not too essential) and will be armed with PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM and no issues with integrating with the Pakistani AWACS ... plus all the goodies that the JF-17 can carry and more. But such a fighter would be a few years away to become a reality and be part of the PAF. But as wishful thinkings go, not a bad wish to have.

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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> In my humble opinion, the best possible deal that can come out of all this is that PAF gets J-11D with the Russian Saturn AL-117 (Su-35s) engines. Just imagine ... an AESA (1760+ TRMs) powered J-11D that will have super-cruise, TVC (not too essential) and will be armed with PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM and no issues with integrating with the Pakistani AWACS ... plus all the goodies that the JF-17 can carry and more. But such a fighter would be a few years away to become a reality and be part of the PAF. But as wishful thinkings go, not a bad wish to have.


Its been stated a million times that , China won't sell any thing , walks or talks like J-11s to anyone ,so pls stop speculation about it ?
Its either , SU-35s or nothing !


----------



## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Its been stated a million times that , China won't sell any thing , walks or talks like J-11s to anyone ,so pls stop speculation about it ?
> Its either , SU-35s or nothing !



Sir, as per my limited understanding everything that we are posting on this thread is nothing but speculation.

All we know is that talks may have been held on the Su-35 with the Russians. What was the scope and nature of the talks we don't know. How it will eventually end up, we don't know. We have to wait and see.

What I posted above is simply an if this could only happen. And it is not that far fetched either.

Because, way I see it, the only way this sort of deal (i.e. for Su-35) is going to succeed is through the joint game plan, approval and cooperation for the deal between Russia, Pakistan and China. And if for any reason direct sale to Pakistan is not possible, then Russia will have no qualms in clearing the way for China to step in and sell its platform (i.e. AL-117 powered J-11D) to Pakistan. That too if Russia agrees to provide its most advanced fighter engine to date. So the tacit agreement on which China holds itself true i.e. not encroaching on Russia's Flanker export market will no longer be applicable and nor be a hindrance.

But of course you are entitled to see it a different way.


----------



## xperia

It seems PAF higher command has no goal in their mind. They are just waiting for india to makes it's move on rafale. PAF seems to be happy with JFT and the Falcon. Defensive approach it seems. Su 35 in PAF colors is out of question. We can't afford to have even two squadrons. Can't afford their maintenance.Entirely new platform, new technology.It will take years to fully integrate the jet in the PAF. The stealth jets of china are on paper right now. The only option left for the PAF is J 10.


----------



## Wolf

Sino russian ties wont suffer if russians dont sell us su 35s. Yes, if Pakistan and China put up a joint order, then its a different story. You are right if we have something to offer e.g. in the shape of russian pakistan economic corridor or connection of cpec cooridor with russia or allowing russians to use ormara atleast for economic reasons.


----------



## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Sir, as per my limited understanding everything that we are posting on this thread is nothing but speculation.
> 
> All we know is that talks may have been held on the Su-35 with the Russians. What was the scope and nature of the talks we don't know. How it will eventually end up, we don't know. We have to wait and see.
> 
> What I posted above is simply an if this could only happen. And it is not that far fetched either.
> 
> Because, way I see it, the only way this sort of deal (i.e. for Su-35) is going to succeed is through the joint game plan, approval and cooperation for the deal between Russia, Pakistan and China. And if for any reason direct sale to Pakistan is not possible, then Russia will have no qualms in clearing the way for China to step in and sell its platform (i.e. AL-117 powered J-11D) to Pakistan. That too if Russia agrees to provide its most advanced fighter engine to date. So the tacit agreement on which China holds itself true i.e. not encroaching on Russia's Flanker export market will no longer be applicable and nor be a hindrance.
> 
> But of course you are entitled to see it a different way.


So you think , Russian DFM just speculated ?
Why direct sale of any Russian weapons are not possible to Pakistan ?


----------



## Jammer

Really Xperia! SU35 might not materialize for Pakistan, however, myself or anybody that has been remotely associated with the PAF can comfortably disagree when you say that the "PAF higher command has no goal in their mind'. Please step back and look at all the moving parts and be an adult.

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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> So you think , Russian DFM just speculated ?
> Why direct sale of any Russian weapons are not possible to Pakistan ?



No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.

I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.

Hope that clears it.


----------



## Donatello

aliyusuf said:


> No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.
> 
> I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.
> 
> Hope that clears it.



The rumors are (if they make any sense) that China wants these planes for PAF. It cannot fly them under it's own flag on Pakistani soil, that will set off alarm belles ringing in the West. Russia needs money. If China can provide funds to purchase from Russia, i don't know what the problem is.
But PAF will have it's own plans and analysis as well. Any case, a few squadrons of heavy will be very good.

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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> No, the Russian DFM did not speculate. But how the deal will eventually pan out is anybody's guess. Deals more further along the sales cycle than this have been cancelled in the past. These things take time. We don't know what the actual status of the deal is. We don't know what might happen after Putin and Modi meeting in the coming months.
> 
> I did not say that the deal is not possible, in fact it is quite possible with Russia, Pakistan and China all in on it. The main purpose, IMHO, is to give the PAF an added punch ... whatever be the form of that punch. It could be the Su-35 or maybe even the J-11s or maybe something else (we don't know). So I was just speculating the alternatives should such a deal not materialize. IMHO, J-11D with Su-35s engines would be even more capable than the Su-35. But it is my wish list and that was what I posted previously.
> 
> Hope that clears it.


Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
No its not like that , at all !
Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
& that's it !

*Dawn News*

HOME

LATEST

PAKISTAN
Modi pushes 'obsolete' made-in-India plane on reluctant military[/paste:font]
REUTERS — PUBLISHED ABOUT 10 HOURS AGO
WHATSAPP
 164 COMMENTS


PRINT
*NEW DELHI: India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy

But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

"The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.

"The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

"In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.
*
*Safety concerns*
*An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

"We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the Indian air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

"Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.

"We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."

Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.

A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

"There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"

listen to that !!!!*


----------



## Ultima Thule

batmannow said:


> Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
> He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
> States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
> So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
> The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
> No its not like that , at all !
> Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
> No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
> Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
> & that's it !
> 
> *Dawn News*
> 
> HOME
> 
> LATEST
> 
> PAKISTAN
> Modi pushes 'obsolete' made-in-India plane on reluctant military[/paste:font]
> REUTERS — PUBLISHED ABOUT 10 HOURS AGO
> WHATSAPP
> 164 COMMENTS
> 
> 
> PRINT
> *NEW DELHI: India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.
> 
> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.
> 
> The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.
> 
> Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.
> 
> The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.
> 
> Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy
> 
> But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.
> 
> "The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.
> 
> "The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."
> 
> India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.
> 
> With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.
> 
> Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.
> 
> Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.
> 
> Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.
> 
> "In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.*
> 
> *Safety concerns*
> *An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.
> 
> Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.
> 
> "It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."
> 
> He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.
> 
> "We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.
> 
> But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the Indian air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.
> 
> "Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.
> 
> State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.
> 
> "We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."
> 
> Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.
> 
> A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.
> 
> "There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"
> 
> listen to that !!!!*


No you don't understand him, he just try to say that we don't know that the talks is in its early stage or advance stage, and pressure from India will be immense will be their and PAF should considered alternatives specially Chinese, thank you

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## aliyusuf

batmannow said:


> Pls stop speculation friend , as you yourself rightly pointed out that hounrable Russian DFM wasnt telling any joke then , you should wait until further annoucment ?
> He or any Pakistani officials doesn't needs to address your or my desperation ?
> States run with their super national interests not by meeting any head if state ?
> So just cool down , India has over manuovered itself & now is standing now nowhere ?
> The so called Indian strategists are desperate to save their dam jobs from the terrorist tea boy.s govt , that they virtually has made his mind that whole world is poor & all of Russia , China , & USA are just after the gold mountains of India ?
> No its not like that , at all !
> Right now if India goes with more military purchses from west or anerica , I'm sure Russia is going to stop its supplies to indian military very soon , which will effect its 80% dependent Indian military on Russian arms ?
> No way they can take out all of the Russian hard ware in couple of days months or years ?
> Just remember one thing , SU-35 is the best form of any flanker till now which Russia ever produced so , if we go we will go only for that .
> & that's it !
> ...



Sir, I am cool and patient.

After 19 years in software development, constantly dealing with functionalities, non-stop pressure of deadlines, extremely long hours, anxious clients and keeping up with an ever evolving technology base ... I cannot afford to be anything else but be relaxed.

Back to the topic ...

These things take time to come to fruition.

In the meanwhile I can at least treat myself to the luxury of being able to ponder and speculate on the alternatives and J-11D seems to have taken my fancy for the time being it seems. It is extensively RAM coated has a high percentage of composite materials. This has significantly reduced RCS and empty weight. It is powered by 2 very (now) stable WS-10B 14 ton class engines. However if powered by Saturn AL-117s it will certainly rock. It is rumored that it has an AESA radar that is even more powerful than the 1760 TRMs AESA on the J-16. It will be armed with the 5th gen PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM. Can carry 12 AAMs. Integrated IRST and EOTS. It is also rumored that the successful progression of the J-11D program is one of the contributing factors in PLAAF not going forward with the Su-35 acquisition.

My pondering and speculating is not a suggestion by any means that I am against the Su-35 getting inducted in the PAF.

I am actually relishing the possibilities that the current situation is likely to present.

So, my friend, if you are taking my post on J-11D too seriously, please don't. It was not my intention to rankle anyone with my musings.

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## batmannow

aliyusuf said:


> Sir, I am cool and patient.
> 
> After 19 years in software development, constantly dealing with functionalities, non-stop pressure of deadlines, extremely long hours, anxious clients and keeping up with an ever evolving technology base ... I cannot afford to be anything else but be relaxed.
> 
> Back to the topic ...
> 
> These things take time to come to fruition.
> 
> In the meanwhile I can at least treat myself to the luxury of being able to ponder and speculate on the alternatives and J-11D seems to have taken my fancy for the time being it seems. It is extensively RAM coated has a high percentage of composite materials. This has significantly reduced RCS and empty weight. It is powered by 2 very (now) stable WS-10B 14 ton class engines. However if powered by Saturn AL-117s it will certainly rock. It is rumored that it has an AESA radar that is even more powerful than the 1760 TRMs AESA on the J-16. It will be armed with the 5th gen PL-15 LRAAM and PL-10 HOBS WVRAAM. Can carry 12 AAMs. Integrated IRST and EOTS. It is also rumored that the successful progression of the J-11D program is one of the contributing factors in PLAAF not going forward with the Su-35 acquisition.
> 
> My pondering and speculating is not a suggestion by any means that I am against the Su-35 getting inducted in the PAF.
> 
> I am actually relishing the possibilities that the current situation is likely to present.
> 
> So, my friend, if you are taking my post on J-11D too seriously, please don't. It was not my intention to rankle anyone with my musings.


After being reborn , from the hell called kargill ,I'm listening to you dear !


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## Basel

aftab_s81 said:


> Why NOT Mig-35 for PAF?
> Mig-35 is roughly equivalent to F-16 B-50+, also it shares same engine of JFT.
> Any thoughts?



Mig has product quality issues too, some time back a export country refused to accept Migs and returned all delivered ones with request for Sukhois.


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## Hurter

xperia said:


> It seems PAF higher command has no goal in their mind. They are just waiting for india to makes it's move on rafale. PAF seems to be happy with JFT and the Falcon. Defensive approach it seems. Su 35 in PAF colors is out of question. We can't afford to have even two squadrons. Can't afford their maintenance.Entirely new platform, new technology.It will take years to fully integrate the jet in the PAF. The stealth jets of china are on paper right now. The only option left for the PAF is J 10.



J-10 is pretty useless


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## aliyusuf

Hurter said:


> J-10 is pretty useless



Really?
J-10B has super maneuverability, much more powerful AL-31FN III engine or WS-10B (both available), 1100+ TRMs AESA radar, Integrated IRST, EOTS, HMS and reduced RCS. It is available with these features today. Not some 3 to 4 years down the road in the form of JF-17 Block-III with many of the above features but not at the same level of capability. The AESA will have significantly lesser number of TRMs and no integrated IRST and EOTS.

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/congratulations-it’s-aesa-radar



> ...
> Once the J-10B enters service, its AESA radar and other electronic enhancements would give it a leg up over Taiwanese F-16s and Vietnamese Su-30s as well as concern US operators. As a US Navy fighter pilot put it, “This is bad news for us.”
> ...



The above link and quote is more than a year old and the J-10B has entered service a month or so ago.


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## Hurter

aliyusuf said:


> Really?
> J-10B has super maneuverability, much more powerful AL-31FN III engine or WS-10B (both available), 1100+ TRMs AESA radar, Integrated IRST, EOTS, HMS and reduced RCS. It is available with these features today. Not some 3 to 4 years down the road the road in the form of JF-17 Block-III with many of the above features but not at the same level of capability. The AESA will have significantly lesser number of TRMs and no integrated IRST and EOTS.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/congratulations-it’s-aesa-radar



Not as good as SU-35. PAF has no intention to buy J-10 from China since the J-31 is on the cards.

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## aliyusuf

Hurter said:


> Not as good as SU-35. PAF has no intention to buy J-10 from China since the J-31 is on the cards.



Not many fighters in the world are as good as the Su-35. But we will have to see whether we get it or not. J-31 induction is not happening before 2023. Still long ways off. Also when the Super Sukhoi upgrade of the MKI fleet commences from 2019 onwards somewhere around 2023 we may be facing 270 MKIs plus 36 Rafales (all AESA armed) ... our F-16s with Pulse Doppler radar will be at a disadvantage against them. If we can't get AESA for our F-16s we cannot offset these 300+ AESA equipped fighters threat plus FGFA for IAF with just a few squadrons of (say) SU-35 and hopefully J-31. We need to bolster our mid tier as well ... maybe the JF-17 Block-III will have to make do ... but it will be a daunting task ... that can be made considerably easier by inducting a few squadrons of J-10B (or a newer version) post 2020.

Also, just because we may not buy the J-10 doesn't make it useless does it? The whole problem is our lack of funding to do all we need to. Instead we are forced to make compromises. That is why J-10B/FC-20 has been deferred for now. 

Just my humble opinion.

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## Hurter

aliyusuf said:


> Not many fighters in the world are as good as the Su-35. But we will have to see whether we get it or not. J-31 induction is not happening before 2023. Still long ways off. Also when the Super Sukhoi upgrade of the MKI fleet commences from 2019 onwards somewhere around 2023 we may be facing 270 MKIs plus 36 Rafales (all AESA armed) ... our F-16s with Pulse Doppler radar will be at a disadvantage against them. If we can't get AESA for our F-16s we cannot offset these 300+ AESA equipped fighters threat plus FGFA for IAF with just a few squadrons of (say) SU-35 and hopefully J-31. We need to bolster our mid tier as well ... maybe the JF-17 Block-III will have to make do ... but it will be a daunting task ... that can be made considerably easier by inducting a few squadrons of J-10B (or a newer version) post 2020.
> 
> Also, just because we may not buy the J-10 doesn't make it useless does it? The whole problem is our lack of funding to do all we need to. Instead we are forced to make compromises. That is why J-10B/FC-20 has been deferred for now.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.



I agree with what you saying, but I am talking based on facts... The deal for J-10B was closed during Musharraf's tenure long time back. If J-10B was on the cards then it should be inducted long time back. But as you've said the we have lack of funds (as always for no reason), we couldn't take any firm decision. But since 4++ gen has taken over, I don't think that J-10B is a good competitor in front of Rafale.


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## aliyusuf

Hurter said:


> I agree with what you saying, but I am talking based on facts... The deal for J-10B was closed during Musharraf's tenure long time back. If J-10B was on the cards then it should be inducted long time back. But as you've said the we have lack of funds (as always for no reason), we couldn't take any firm decision. But since 4++ gen has taken over, I don't think that J-10B is a good competitor in front of Rafale.



The deal was for FC-20 which ever J-10 version fulfilled the specs. J-10A didn't. We needed to wait for J-10B to come in to the picture ... which has had many Pakistani inputs. J-10B has only now been inducted in PLAAF. But the post Musharraf period saw rampant corruption. We were left with barely enough funds to maintain the JF-17 production line. You are entitled to your opinion ... but many believe that it is in the same class as the euro-canards and is definitely 4++ generation. Both J-10B and J-11D are very good options too.


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## Dukkar

Can some one tell me the number of fighter planes a squadron in PAF has ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dukkar said:


> Can some one tell me the number of fighter planes a squadron in PAF has ?



typically 20 ACs..


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## Dukkar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> typically 20 ACs..



ty .That means at say $ 70m a pop, a squad would cost 1.4 billion $ . Makes me wonder if India should be paying twice this amount for ONE Rafale ! Would you rather have 2 squadrons of Rafales or 4 of SU-35 ?

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## syed zia Hassan

well su-35 is good for PAF ..but I know our fighter pilots like Eurofighter aircraft in their hands Russian need a buyer and we need long range machine with BAE system. leet see .


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## Zain Malik

Is China agreed to give Pakistan its 5th Gen J20 Aircrafts , Any contract signed between both countries..???


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## Hurter

Zain Malik said:


> Is China agreed to give Pakistan its 5th Gen J20 Aircrafts , Any contract signed between both countries..???



No


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## Muhammad Omar

Zain Malik said:


> Is China agreed to give Pakistan its 5th Gen J20 Aircrafts , Any contract signed between both countries..???



Chinese Executive Vice President of aviation industry is giving model of J-31 to PAF chief that means they agrees.. contract will be signed when the J-31 comes to production line which i 6-8 years from now only few prototypes are there and J-31 2.0 prototype is no where


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## Zain Malik

Muhammad Omar said:


> Chinese Executive Vice President of aviation industry is giving model of J-31 to PAF chief that means they agrees.. contract will be signed when the J-31 comes to production line which i 6-8 years from now only few prototypes are there and J-31 2.0 prototype is no where


That's a Good News....!!!


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## Hurter

Muhammad Omar said:


> Chinese Executive Vice President of aviation industry is giving model of J-31 to PAF chief that means they agrees.. contract will be signed when the J-31 comes to production line which i 6-8 years from now only few prototypes are there and J-31 2.0 prototype is no where


Are they gonna use the same JF-17 engines in J-31 or its just for prototype?


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## aliyusuf

Hurter said:


> Are they gonna use the same JF-17 engines in J-31 or its just for prototype?



It was just for the 31001 flying demonstrator. SAC does not qualify that air craft as a prototype. In fact, in reality there isn't any prototype yet. The newer static version being displayed by the company in air shows recently has a few clear differences from what was flown before as 31001.

So now to answer your question ... it is not going to be RD-93. That is why it is still going to take some 8 to 10 years to go into production.


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## The Diplomat

fatman17 said:


> Ensuring open sea lines of communication SLOC is of paramount importance to pakistan.


Is there any update on the SU 35 sale to Pakistan? I am deeply excited, this will be the first 5th generation aircraft of PAF.

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## MEAGAN FOXSS

GOOD PAKISTAN DESPERATELY NEEDS A AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER LIKE SU 35S .

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## ACE OF THE AIR

PAF is not going to buy SU-35's...


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## silent hawk

Lahore_PAF said:


> Is there any update on the SU 35 sale to Pakistan? I am deeply excited, this will be the first 5th generation aircraft of PAF.



This generation stuff is pretty confusing

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## The Diplomat

silent hawk said:


> This generation stuff is pretty confusing


True, to be honest I expect it to be. A great military never fully reveals information that could benefit their enemies. As far as I know, I was looking a Horus's Facebook page and saw a comment by him saying that Pakistan will not be looking into 4.5 generation aircraft like the SU-35, Pakistan will go to 5th generation directly (like the Chinese steal aircraft). The post was a bit out of date though (Post date 10 August 2015 - it was a self comment on a post.)


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## batmannow

Lahore_PAF said:


> True, to be honest I expect it to be. A great military never fully reveals information that could benefit their enemies. As far as I know, I was looking a Horus's Facebook page and saw a comment by him saying that Pakistan will not be looking into 4.5 generation aircraft like the SU-35, Pakistan will go to 5th generation directly (like the Chinese steal aircraft). The post was a bit out of date though (Post date 10 August 2015 - it was a self comment on a post.)


There is no 5 generation fighter available to us with mature , flying expirence at the moment ?
Thus , we can't wait more 5 years as flying ducks to IAFs sukhois ?
We need at least 2 sqdrns of potent super fighters like SU-35s to fill the gap & cross this time zone ?
& always remember SU-35s are 4+++ generation fighters which has the capability to be upgraded as 5 th generation fighters ?
Our air chief is due to Moscow , let's see what song he sung there ?


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## syed_yusuf

Su-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter just like Rafael, EF2000, j-10c, F-16 BLk61, F-15S/SA.I/K super hornet etc.

F-16 blk52+, Su-30MKI, Su-30MKK, F-2 are all 4+ gen fighters

JF-17, Mirage 2000-09, F-16MLU/blk50/52, j-10a, FA-50 are more or less considered 4th gen fighters

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## The Diplomat

batmannow said:


> There is no 5 generation fighter available to us with mature , flying expirence at the moment ?
> Thus , we can't wait more 5 years as flying ducks to IAFs sukhois ?
> We need at least 2 sqdrns of potent super fighters like SU-35s to fill the gap & cross this time zone ?
> & always remember SU-35s are 4+++ generation fighters which has the capability to be upgraded as 5 th generation fighters ?
> Our air chief is due to Moscow , let's see what song he sung there ?


Lets hope for the best, what ever our chief will do will be for the best.

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## Leviza

syed_yusuf said:


> Su-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter just like Rafael, EF2000, j-10c, F-16 BLk61, F-15S/SA.I/K super hornet etc.
> 
> F-16 blk52+, Su-30MKI, Su-30MKK, F-2 are all 4+ gen fighters
> 
> JF-17, Mirage 2000-09, F-16MLU/blk50/52, j-10a, FA-50 are more or less considered 4th gen fighters



You didnt mentioned LCA ? its 10+ generation and might fly some day

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## batmannow

Leviza said:


> You didnt mentioned LCA ? its 10+ generation and might fly some day


Yes on the judgment day ?lolzz


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## Great Sachin

Still dreaming about SU35 .....wake up guys it is JF17 not SU35


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## CHI RULES

batmannow said:


> Its been stated a million times that , China won't sell any thing , walks or talks like J-11s to anyone ,so pls stop speculation about it ?
> Its either , SU-35s or nothing !


Sir there is no solid proof that China has any restrictions regarding selling J11s to Pak other buyers. The only restrictions are perhaps on Pak side regarding costs and availability of jets as so far the latest variants of J11 are not even enough to fulfill Chinese domestic requirements.
Further off course WS-13 engines are also so far not available in large numbers.


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## The Diplomat

Great Sachin said:


> Still dreaming about SU35 .....wake up guys it is JF17 not SU35


Come on, Indian propaganda... 
Today Indian news channel report: Pakistan Naval Sub shoots torpedoes at wooden Indian fishing boat and they survive, not only that but the people on the vessel don't get hurt? Right... Whats up with that?


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## Great Sachin

Lahore_PAF said:


> Come on, Indian propaganda...
> Today Indian news channel report: Pakistan Naval Sub shoots torpedoes at wooden Indian fishing boat and they survive, not only that but the people on the vessel don't get hurt? Right... Whats up with that?


Chini torpedo...fusss


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## The Diplomat

Great Sachin said:


> Chini torpedo...fusss


It's officially true, India has a Pakistan obsession, it just can't live with out interfering with Pakistan...


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## abdulbarijan

Lahore_PAF said:


> Is there any update on the SU 35 sale to Pakistan? I am deeply excited, this will be the first 5th generation aircraft of PAF.





silent hawk said:


> This generation stuff is pretty confusing



Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...

This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...

So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have
_
*-1st generation* (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
*-2nd generation *(includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
*-3rd generation* (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
*-4th generation *(includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
*-4.5 generation* (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.) 
*-5th generation *( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.) _

However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....

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## silent hawk

abdulbarijan said:


> Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...
> 
> This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...
> 
> So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have
> _
> *-1st generation* (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
> *-2nd generation *(includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
> *-3rd generation* (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
> *-4th generation *(includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
> *-4.5 generation* (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.)
> *-5th generation *( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.) _
> 
> However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....



I was taught that the generation wise classification should be done based on Aerospace , Avionics and armament components. Hence JF-17 is third gen aerospace with 4th gen Avionics and 4th gen Aerospace.


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## abdulbarijan

silent hawk said:


> I was taught that the generation wise classification should be done based on Aerospace , Avionics and armament components. Hence JF-17 is third gen aerospace with 4th gen Avionics and 4th gen Aerospace.



I think you should refer to the JFT info pool thread ... @Manticore has done beyond an excellent job of compiling information about the aircraft -- which would surely convince you or anybody else for that matter, that JFT is a 4th generation platform .... One could go in to details as to why ... but to put it in the most simplest way possible, it offers alot more then the 4th generation F-16 A/B, infact one could even make a case for it being a tad bit better then the early C/D models minus the range & payload ... but I guess you get the point ... 

Sometimes the cause of confusion, is that, there are platforms that are upgraded ... like the Mig-21 of the IAF, technically would fall under the 2nd generation aircraft banner, yet the aircraft is operational today ... and is quite a good platform in its Bison form where it can fire BVR's and has avionics upgrades etc. Same is the case with Mirage III/V Rose we operate or the F-7 PG's ... these aircrafts originally would fall under 2nd/3rd gens but owing to the upgrades that they've received ... in terms of what they offer they would be somewhere between 3rd gen and 4th gen fighters --- a 3.5 generation if you will ... or some could call them an early 4th gen ...maybe ... but then again -- putting generations on aircrafts ... is not really the best way to judge a platform ... after all we see the exceptions in platforms that originally belong to one generation .... but once upgraded perform up to par with another ...

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## silent hawk

abdulbarijan said:


> I think you should refer to the JFT info pool thread ... @Manticore has done beyond an excellent job of compiling information about the aircraft -- which would surely convince you or anybody else for that matter, that JFT is a 4th generation platform .... One could go in to details as to why ... but to put it in the most simplest way possible, it offers alot more then the 4th generation F-16 A/B, infact one could even make a case for it being a tad bit better then the early C/D models minus the range & payload ... but I guess you get the point ...
> 
> Sometimes the cause of confusion, is that, there are platforms that are upgraded ... like the Mig-21 of the IAF, technically would fall under the 2nd generation aircraft banner, yet the aircraft is operational today ... and is quite a good platform in its Bison form where it can fire BVR's and has avionics upgrades etc. Same is the case with Mirage III/V Rose we operate or the F-7 PG's ... these aircrafts originally would fall under 2nd/3rd gens but owing to the upgrades that they've received ... in terms of what they offer they would be somewhere between 3rd gen and 4th gen fighters --- a 3.5 generation if you will ... or some could call them an early 4th gen ...maybe ... but then again -- putting generations on aircrafts ... is not really the best way to judge a platform ... after all we see the exceptions in platforms that originally belong to one generation .... but once upgraded perform up to par with another ...



Thanks will look at your referred info. Agree on your way of judging aircrafts. Disagree that JF-17 and F-16 are similar. It is like comparing an Alto (JF-17) with an Accord.


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## abdulbarijan

silent hawk said:


> Thanks will look at your referred info. Agree on your way of judging aircrafts. Disagree that JF-17 and F-16 are similar. It is like comparing an Alto (JF-17) with an Accord.



You know you should acquire a little information about the platform your judging without much information on it ... and this discussion technically belongs in the JFT section so you should discuss it there ... but I stand by what I said ... JFT radar wise, avionics wise, EW wise & weapons wise is better then the early F-16's we operated ... and that is actually what we market ... and you don't market internationally what you cant back up ... secondly if you go back say 4-7 years ... the Chairman of Migkoyan was saying something along the lines of ... JFT being one of the prime competitor of Mig-29 in the export market ... so there is alot more discussion in to a comparison of fighters ... then simply dismissing it by saying its a comparison of such and such car and 'car a' can never touch 'car b'...


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## batmannow

CHI RULES said:


> Sir there is no solid proof that China has any restrictions regarding selling J11s to Pak other buyers. The only restrictions are perhaps on Pak side regarding costs and availability of jets as so far the latest variants of J11 are not even enough to fulfill Chinese domestic requirements.
> Further off course WS-13 engines are also so far not available in large numbers.


Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


With growing Russia - Pakistan relationship , we are getting closer day by day & I'm getting certain that we will have SU- 35 deal very soon!

Friend , when can get the frist hand equipment , we don't need copy of that ?


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## batmannow

Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Here we go , Russia is getting closer to Pakistan day by day ?
Su-35 is coming next , what will our Indian friends can do about it ?


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## The Diplomat

abdulbarijan said:


> Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...
> 
> This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...
> 
> So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have
> _
> *-1st generation* (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
> *-2nd generation *(includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
> *-3rd generation* (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
> *-4th generation *(includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
> *-4.5 generation* (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.)
> *-5th generation *( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.) _
> 
> However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....


Thanks for the information, was looking for the difference.



batmannow said:


> Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> Here we go , Russia is getting closer to Pakistan day by day ?
> Su-35 is coming next , what will our Indian friends can do about it ?


Beg Russia to not sign the deal, I know we should party by taking Modhi to a night club or something...

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## The Eagle

Hope to have some good news whether it's SU or anything else though we have a lot of cards to choose smartly and PAF has proven the ability and intelligence so would choose in long term IN'SHA'ALLAH


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## Mani2020

The Eagle said:


> Hope to have some good news whether it's SU or anything else though we have a lot of cards to choose smartly and PAF has proven the ability and intelligence so would choose in long term IN'SHA'ALLAH


I don't know what you call cards mate... and that too alot of them.... Rafael is gone eft is too expensive for paf so is f-15 latest version.... gripen as per ex ACM can't be handled by us due to complex technology involved.... sukhoi's I doubt that because of known facts.... j-11 series with Russian factor... so what we are left here are j-10s and f16s... yeah man they are lot of cards... Can you count them and come again


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## The Eagle

Mani2020 said:


> I don't know what you call cards mate... and that too alot of them.... Rafael is gone eft is too expensive for paf so is f-15 latest version.... gripen as per ex ACM can't be handled by us due to complex technology involved.... sukhoi's I doubt that because of known facts.... j-11 series with Russian factor... so what we are left here are j-10s and f16s... yeah man they are lot of cards... Can you count them and come again


Though i am new here and not expert with techs but as per my opinion after going through news and looking at rapid changes in rigion neither i believe that we will have EU or US tech as it needs pile and pile of money but still there are choices by going Chinese or Russia and also as PAK signed mature contract with Turkey in defence industry etc so when there are choices then there is a chance to make a smart move to have a win situation and PAF professionals knows well what to choose. Also CPEC made a drastic change in situation of rigion and definitely will boost our purchase of defence equipments as well.


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## Mani2020

The Eagle said:


> Though i am new here and not expert with techs but as per my opinion after going through news and looking at rapid changes in rigion neither i believe that we will have EU or US tech as it needs pile and pile of money but still there are choices by going Chinese or Russia and also as PAK signed mature contract with Turkey in defence industry etc so when there are choices then there is a chance to make a smart move to have a win situation and PAF professionals knows well what to choose. Also CPEC made a drastic change in situation of rigion and definitely will boost our purchase of defence equipments as well.



We are here discussing fighter aircraft options paf has and not some defene cooperations... Defence cooperations mean nada if other country has nothing to offer you in context of paf urgent needs to induct a new platform.... long term agreed they are beneficial but remember we are using the term "urgent".... tell me what aircraft Turkey has currently to offer us on immediate basis?... tommorrow we may sign a cooperation deal with Nigeria but does that mean paf has increased the options of aircrafts it can acquire.... the reality is for fighter aircrafts there are no other countries than US China Russia and European and I have already informed you on how we have lost on 80 percent of the options.... as far always trusting on paf decisions is concerned just look out for what have we gotten in past 2 decades or so and what we have screwed up than do a comparison vis a vis matured deals and lost opportunities and ask yourself

The fact is paf has become a rumors agency where after every few months or years we hear about acquisitions from paf fanboys and paf herself and in the end we get nothing and this trend has started from 90s ... start from mirage 2000s then su27s then Rafaels than gripens then fc20s then j-11s now su-35s and in all that time what paf got were 18 f-16s...there are very few aircrafts left now about which we can say were not considered or so called bought (in dreams)

On a side note even paf has failed to take care of some costly acquisitions like saab2000... I mean just imagine millions of taxpayers dollars getting burned by some filthy moronic terrorists....


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## Basel

@Mani2020 a solution can be made for getting Su-35 class jet if Russia is not in position to sell those due to Indian pressure. Russia and China can jointly create a customize version of J-11D for Pakistan, bringing best of Chinese and Russian tech in one jet. This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.

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## The Eagle

Well my friend we pay to govt for defence and other things but what our elected so called democratic does with that money is always about their own luxuries rather spending the right amount on defence so we can have right tool for PAF and all so it was always about the size of pockets so what u expect? Though it were never rumors but the truth can be seen even search F-16 deal with US and what happened there and who got how much kick back and so then the rumor fact will b cleared upon u. Rest about defence contracts etc will definitely effects somehow directly or indirectly u can say so also about choices we r getting into line finally though took time but it's like later is better then never. No offence and my apology in advance and in the last yes thread says to discuss that we r in deal with Russia for SU 35 and I just came in with my opinion and wishes.


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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.



I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.

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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.


I am totally agree as there is always a solution though I want a dogfighter doing cobra can stop and turn around fast go stealth and supersonic with AESA BVR RAAM etc but after all I have to check my pocket and circumstances as well.


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## Mani2020

Basel said:


> @Mani2020 a solution can be made for getting Su-35 class jet if Russia is not in position to sell those due to Indian pressure. Russia and China can jointly create a customize version of J-11D for Pakistan, bringing best of Chinese and Russian tech in one jet. This way both will be able to earn money and no issue from India too.


Yes mate this is one solution and there are solutions for everything considering paf's willingness to acquire any high tech aircraft.... I personally am a great fan of flanker family... but it all depends on how serious paf is..we have seen paf in past where it seemed they are negotiating just for the sake of it.... I hope so that some sense prevails this time and we induct some good fighter jet soon



aliyusuf said:


> I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.



It all depends on russia's willingness... India is not a problem as far as just engines are concerned as russia is providing us engines for jf17 rather the main issues is russia's fear from china that the later will copy it and make a clone of it like they did previously... there are two solutions for that either Russia May come up with a less capable variant of this engine and export it like they did in case of jf17 engines or they may ask China to pay x amount for every engine they produce as a clone or some kind of royalty fee

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## Basel

aliyusuf said:


> I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.



India can cry but cannot stop Russia doing it because they can say we are helping Chinese to upgrade their jets or just make this deal completely secret.

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## Viper0011.

batmannow said:


> With growing Russia - Pakistan relationship , we are getting closer day by day & I'm getting certain that we will have SU- 35 deal very soon!



This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets. 

With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.



The Eagle said:


> *Well my friend we pay to govt for defence and other things but what our elected so called democratic does with that money is always about their own luxuries rather spending the right amount on defence so we can have right tool for PAF*



Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth. 

The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes. 

And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started. 

By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term


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## 45'22'

Viper0011. said:


> This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.
> 
> With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.
> 
> The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.
> 
> And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.
> 
> By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term


Not true
The India Russia business still supercedes Russia's other deals by a huge margin......
It is gonna a take a while atleast 1.5 to 2 decade for that change to happen 

How will your defence budget double from current 8 b usd to 16 billion usd in 5 years with 4 percent annual growth?
pretty optimistic you are i must say


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## The Eagle

Viper0011. said:


> This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.
> 
> With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.
> 
> The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.
> 
> And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.
> 
> By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term




I did not mean to bring politics in here but wanted to clear out that it wasn't PAF since 90's but some unavoidable circumstances those of us stuck and took time but as it is said better later than never. 






aliyusuf said:


> I totally agree with you on a customized J-11D with twin AL-117 engines. But India will still raise hell on that too as well. But even without the AL-117s, J-11D is formidable due to its stronger structure and lighter weight (extensive use of composites) lower RCS (extensive use of RAM) and a very powerful AESA radar and EW suite.



J 11-d beautiful indeed not just the shape but specs as well within available choices


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## deathfromabove

*Here's one surprising reason Russia might not want to pick a fight with US planes over Syria*

The skies over Syria are dangerously crowded these days with the US, Russia, and the Assad regime all bombing various actors on vaguely opposite sides of the country's multidimensional conflict.

In both Iraq and Syria, the reality of overlapping aerial operations among countries with little geopolitical fondness toward one another has already led to claims that British aircraft have been authorized to engage Russian aircraft over Iraq if threatened.

The British government denied these reports, but they still underscore the possibility of confrontation between allied and Russian military aircraft.

Several presidential candidates,including Democratic front-runner and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, have called for an allied-enforced no-fly zone in northern Syria — a development that would be partly aimed at containing Russian operations.

In Politico, former State Department official Frederic Hof recently advocated a robust US response to any deliberate Russian provocation: "But if Russia seeks out armed confrontation with the United States in Syria, it would be a mistake for Washington to back down," Hof wrote.

"People like [Russian president Vladimir] Putin will push until they hit steel."

There's already been one alarming incident: According to AFP, Russia announced on October 14 that one of its planes had approached a US aircraft over Syria "for identification purposes," with one Russian official explaining that Russian aircraft "often come within visual recognition distance of US warplanes and drones."

So what would happen if Russian and US aircraft began shooting at one another over Syria?






A Russian Su-35 Flanker.

One plausible answer comes from an unlikely source: David E. Hoffman's "The Billion Dollar Spy," a gripping account of Cold War spy Adolf Tolkachev.

In the early and mid-1980s, Tolkachev, who was the head of a Soviet weapons-research laboratory, gave the CIA specifications for the next decade's worth of Soviet combat-aircraft radar systems.

"The amazing thing is that Tolkachov was bringing us not only what was happening now but what would be happening 10 years from now," Hoffman told Business Insider in an interview earlier this year.





Tolkachev allowed US military planners to peer into the future of Soviet aircraft capabilities.

Since the Soviet Union was the US' primary conventional foe, that information led the US to build specific counter-capabilities into its own aircraft — ways of evading advanced Soviet aircraft radar or of exploiting gaps in radar coverage.

"This intelligence went right into electronics that were deployed, but never mentioned in anyone’s National Intelligence Estimate," Hoffman explained to Business Insider.

*This technological and intelligence edge is one of the reasons for the US' aerial superiority over Soviet-built combat aircraft since the fall of the Soviet Union*.

During the 1991 Gulf War, while in "direct aerial combat over Iraq, the US Air Force downed every Soviet-built tactical fighter that it confronted," Hoffman writes, even though they were being flown by pilots from what was then one of the most formidable militaries in the Middle East at the time.

US pilots had a similarly perfect record when facing off against Yugoslavia's Soviet-built aircraft and air defenses during the 1990s Balkan conflicts.

"The record is stark," Hoffman writes. "For every six enemy aircraft air force pilots shot down in Korea, the United States lost one. In Vietnam, the United States lost one airplane for every two enemy planes shot down.

"Thus, the kill ratios went from six to one in Korea, and two to one in Vietnam, to 48-to-zero for the air force in the wars in Iraq and the Balkans."

As a partial result of Tolkachev's espionage, "The United States has enjoyed almost total air superiority over Soviet-built fighters for more than two decades," he writes.

The technical superiority that Tolkachev's espionage enabled has applications in the present day, in situations where US aircraft might come into conflict with Soviet fighters built in the 1980s and early 1990s. But it could conceivably extend to planes built after that period as well.








Even some of the most advanced Russian aircraft began their development either at the end of Soviet period or in the immediate post-Soviet period, when communist-era state defense institutes were often left intact.

For instance, the Su-34 Fullback multirole fighter jet — four of which are currently in Syria —first flew in 1990, although the plane didn't officially enter service until 2014. Russia also has Su-30 Flankers in Syria.

Both planes are descendants of the SU-27 multirole fighter, the radar specifications of which were fully known to US military planners, thanks to Tolkachev.

Hoffman speculated to Business Insider that some of Tolkachev's information is still relevant to US national security.

"I still think there are big parts of what Tolkachev delivered that are still in use and that are legitimately still classified," Hoffman said. "Even though this case is three decades old, it’s quite likely that some of that stuff is still considered pretty valuable intelligence."

Tolkachev's information helped the US dominate the skies in earlier operations against Soviet-built fighters. And if there's shooting over Syria, an intelligence operation from the Cold War's critical final decade might come in handy all over again.

US and Russia planes in Syria - Business Insider

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## batmannow

Viper0011. said:


> This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.
> 
> With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.
> 
> The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.
> 
> And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.
> 
> By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term





Viper0011. said:


> This is inevitable. Boeing and another manufacturer are going to be building / assembling aircrfts in India soon. That would result in India jump starting their own Civilian and Military aircrafts. So Russia is becoming a smaller fraction by the day in terms of India - US relations. So the Russians will need more markets.
> 
> With growing investments and business / strategic relationships with Pakistan, the logical next step is to become a weapon's supplier at a much larger scale and offset business lost to India, to some degree with Pakistan. That's any country and any business. Nothing special about it but it will get Pakistan newer tech.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep the politics out of this thread as the topic is different. To just set the stage right, for over 60 years, people have gotten wealthier and wealthier by the year in Pakistan by not paying taxes and cheating on the revenue that would otherwise go to the government of that time. So if there was 5 billion additional ACTUAL tax paid (a very small number, compared to the tax base that should've existed) back in the 60's, and it grew by 5% every year, starting the 90's, Pakistan would've passed Malaysia and Turkey in terms of growth.
> 
> The projects which the current government started 3 years ago, could've gotten started in the 90's or even before. Right now, you may have become a partner in the JSF program like Turkey. As Pakistan would've had decades of stable, growing economy and a system. In a Heart attack, your symptoms can start from Flu like, to a shooting pain in the arm to pain in the back. If you followed those symptoms, you may never treat the real issue, that's the Cardiac blockage. So you should ALWAYS be objective and look at the problems roots objectively. Not how you like to see it because your own political affiliations and propaganda purposes.
> 
> And list out a few cases where its a FACT (proven in the court) that the money that was supposed to be given to the PA or the PAF, was sent to buying "luxuries" for the government? In fact, the government hurt their own growth projections and cut down on a few projects to pay for the Zarb-e-Azb and for new weapon purchases. Your Army Chief, Gen. Shariff has actually become a big fan of NS. This is the first time in the history Pak Army and Civilians are working this closely and enjoying a shared vision to grow Pakistan. And no, Gen. Shariff or any general, isn't in the power to threat or put force NS out, or they are dictating to NS, before you make that claim. Its a real working relationship that has put the new Pakistan's foundation peacefully and the growth has started.
> 
> By 2020, Pakistan's defense budget will be around or at where Turkey is right now, around $ 16-18 billion. With plenty of additional funds available for high priority purchases as the government's savings account would be around $ 40-50 billion cash!!! Many industries spawning up, additional billions of investments coming in and CPEC starting to produce revenue also. Now that's how you turn around a country in a 5 year term


with nearly a decade of Indian wishes getting its own fighter jet, still seems on paper ?lolzz
Look.where the dam LCA stands in IAF no where ?
Now as long as , air forces like IAF which at.hugely dependent on Russian weaponry , I don't see in coming future even in 20years Russian weaponry getting into a friction ?
So basicly , just like it doesn't matter what gun is in use of a soilder , in a war all it takes the man behind machine ?
India is still unable & still far away from producing a fighter even at the level of thunder ?
Money gives many choices but it can't buy god gifted ability ?
Mark my words ?
With your 2cents on Russia , it won't make them a lesser power on earth , in the end you need to beg them to give you , PAKFA in time ?
I can safely say that , India need Russian weaponry at least for next 15 years or so , if they have a good plan to phase out Russian hard ware from their military system ?
& after that they need a good strategic partner like Russia to keep them up with latest of the war tech ?
I don't think that america , France ,.or any other power can do the role of Russia for India in.next 15 years ?


Money & finance are very important factor , yes sure it is ?
& that's why Russia has decided to be a strategic partner of Pakistan with China to hold a frim grip in ME , so the oil flow won't just tilt in only Yankees way ?
Pak- China economic corridor , Russia is the sleeping partner , that's why Russia has changed its strategy to provide Pakistan means to defend & be secure for the future bussines growth of china & Russia altogether ?
That's why SU-35 will be given to insure the safety of the bussines created by , the economic corridor ?

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## Viper0011.

45'22' said:


> Not true
> The India Russia business still supercedes Russia's other deals by a huge margin......
> It is gonna a take a while atleast 1.5 to 2 decade for that change to happen



PakFa deal is the last deal in Indo-Russian advance weapons. Meaning after SU-30 and may be some SU-35 as interim MRCA's, the PakFa is the full stop in Indian acquisitions of Russian jets. Sure there will be upgrades to existing jets but PakFa is it.

There is no 1.5 decades, in the next 5 years, Russia will become Pakistan's second or third largest weapon's supplier as Russia like India, has a RIGHT to build her future business pipeline. They can't just sit and wait and see the ship slowly sailing. They have to act now and prepare for the future...

How will your defence budget double from current 8 b usd to 16 billion usd in 5 years with 4 percent annual growth?
pretty optimistic you are i must say[/QUOTE]

Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?


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## batmannow

Viper0011. said:


> PakFa deal is the last deal in Indo-Russian advance weapons. Meaning after SU-30 and may be some SU-35 as interim MRCA's, the PakFa is the full stop in Indian acquisitions of Russian jets. Sure there will be upgrades to existing jets but PakFa is it.
> 
> There is no 1.5 decades, in the next 5 years, Russia will become Pakistan's second or third largest weapon's supplier as Russia like India, has a RIGHT to build her future business pipeline. They can't just sit and wait and see the ship slowly sailing. They have to act now and prepare for the future...
> 
> How will your defence budget double from current 8 b usd to 16 billion usd in 5 years with 4 percent annual growth?
> pretty optimistic you are i must say



Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?[/QUOTE]
Indian expections from US will die soon , its just a short dream , no way USA can make India happy as Russia did in its soviet past ?
Its doesn't matters when PAKFA will be in IAF but the fact remains there , India with 400 plus air fighters basses on Russian tech , can't just break itself from Russian weaponry ?
In any case of any conflict , India needs heavy supplies from Russia ?
Not from USA ?


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## Aamir Hussain

Guys IMHO the days of all out war with India are long gone! Yes belligerent talk is easy to do but following it up with actions now has a very, very high cost for both sides. And they know that and the world powers as well.

India in all its projects is following the long route -- i.e. going from bottom up -- it requires long gestation time and a lot, lot of money too! This route has potential for great setbacks but also greater returns over the long run. India did a SWOT analysis long time back and based their decisions on which route to take based upon no small part to their excellent IIT backbone for producing quality engineers and PhD's, access to mature metallurgical production base -- and mature engineering and manufacturing base -- (their substandard Ambassador finally paid off) Furthermore, they have far more access to technology due to a long standing and more mature mutually satisfying relationship with USSR/Russia which was based upon convergant interests

We took the shorter route (Our philosophy being why reinvent the wheel). This decision was based upon a number of considerations, that we might not like but were the ground reality for us then, lack of funds, weak engineering/manufacturing sector, very few quality institutions were producing quality grade engineers and PhD's, our technology partner (starting late eighties) was itself reverse engineering western systems and components. Furthermore, due to the "Islamic Bomb" syndrome, access to western information and technologies including study and training in them was off limits -- it was not just restricted to Nuclear related studies but to areas in structural engineering, metallurgy, avionics, telemetry, etc.

We did the right thing, given the extreme constraints that we had and chose the only path available to us -- it was less costly, low risk and bigger bang for the buck! So did India. India will get there -- so shall we in the end. Just that we took two different routes.

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## CHI RULES

Pak may opt for any variant of J11 series in near future to compensate J31 and to fill gap involved up to induction of J31.
Pak will not opt for Ruskies because it is may assumption that they can't offer financial concessions/credits. Further they may not allow Pak to update these planes with Chinese Radars or Missiles.
In case of war scenario PAF shall not like to have similar situation like Kargil i.e not having continuous supply of necessary spares/Ammos.
Further it is my assumption that AESA -Chinese made radars may prove to be more benificial then PESA radars of SU35s. Further India may easily get all info from Riussia to counter Radars/Ew suits easily.

*Pak has only one option left and that is J11 variant whether it is for Navy or PAF.*


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## Spectre

Aamir Hussain said:


> Guys IMHO the days of all out war with India are long gone! Yes belligerent talk is easy to do but following it up with actions now has a very, very high cost for both sides. And they know that and the world powers as well.
> 
> India in all its projects is following the long route -- i.e. going from bottom up -- it requires long gestation time and a lot, lot of money too! This route has great setbacks but also greater returns over the long run. India did a SWOT analysis long time back and based their decisions on which route to take based upon no small part to their excellent IIT backbone for producing engineers and PhD's, access to mature metallurgical production base -- and mature engineering and manufacturing base. Furthermore, they have far more access to technology due to a long standing and mutually satisfying relationship with USSR/Russia.
> 
> We took the shorter route (Our philosophy being why reinvent the wheel). This decision was based upon a number of considerations, that we might not like but were the ground reality for us then, lack of funds, weak engineering/manufacturing sector, very few quality institutions were producing quality grade engineers and PhD's, our to technology partner (starting late eighties) was itself reverse engineering western systems and components. Furthermore, due to the "Islamic Bomb," access to information and technologies including study and training in them was off limits -- it was not just restricted to Nuclear related studies but to areas in structural engineering, metallurgy, avionics, telemetry, etc.
> 
> We did the right thing, given the extreme constraints that we had. So did India. India will get there -- so shall we in the end. Just that we took two different routes.



Very well written - As they hindsight is always 20/20. Most critics today forget to take the constraints and the limitations back in the day into consideration. 

Success of Pakistan is inevitable due to demography and location but wrong priorities can delay and may result in more lost decades. Something to keep in mind perhaps.


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## 45'22'

batmannow said:


> Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?


Indian expections from US will die soon , its just a short dream , no way USA can make India happy as Russia did in its soviet past ?
Its doesn't matters when PAKFA will be in IAF but the fact remains there , India with 400 plus air fighters basses on Russian tech , can't just break itself from Russian weaponry ?
In any case of any conflict , India needs heavy supplies from Russia ?
Not from USA ?[/QUOTE]
I think the policy will be to maintain a balance between the two giants(us nd rus)......
India doea not expect US to be our strategic ally like soviet was.....its just we need each other which will continue in the form of military purchases and econonic deals like chinooks, f35(in future for IN) and civil nuclear deals

It will irk russia but the relationship will continue.....the more India develops it military base,the more russia will detach itself from us 


Viper0011. said:


> PakFa deal is the last deal in Indo-Russian advance weapons. Meaning after SU-30 and may be some SU-35 as interim MRCA's, the PakFa is the full stop in Indian acquisitions of Russian jets. Sure there will be upgrades to existing jets but PakFa is it.
> 
> There is no 1.5 decades, in the next 5 years, Russia will become Pakistan's second or third largest weapon's supplier as Russia like India, has a RIGHT to build her future business pipeline. They can't just sit and wait and see the ship slowly sailing. They have to act now and prepare for the future...
> 
> How will your defence budget double from current 8 b usd to 16 billion usd in 5 years with 4 percent annual growth?
> pretty optimistic you are i must say



Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?[/QUOTE]
How old are you?


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## batmannow

45'22' said:


> Indian expections from US will die soon , its just a short dream , no way USA can make India happy as Russia did in its soviet past ?
> Its doesn't matters when PAKFA will be in IAF but the fact remains there , India with 400 plus air fighters basses on Russian tech , can't just break itself from Russian weaponry ?
> In any case of any conflict , India needs heavy supplies from Russia ?
> Not from USA ?


I think the policy will be to maintain a balance between the two giants(us nd rus)......
India doea not expect US to be our strategic ally like soviet was.....its just we need each other which will continue in the form of military purchases and econonic deals like chinooks, f35(in future for IN) and civil nuclear deals

It will irk russia but the relationship will continue.....the more India develops it military base,the more russia will detach itself from us


Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?[/QUOTE]
How old are you?[/QUOTE]
That's just another part of shadow , if you think US will ever give INDIA F-35s you just need to be wake up , cause it just for them & their real strategic partners ?
India can't balance itself much , none of the 2 big giants think positive about this govt , abnocsious policies & its war mogreing ?
state relationships are mostly mixup of economic , strategic , cultural , social intersts it can't be just economy ?
That's what is getting INDIANS on the wrong side , they think they can get whatever they want from who ever ?
even they can push or dictate the 2gaints at their will ?
No India can't do that , both giants has enough power to let India bow down to them when ever they want ?
Right now Pakistan , has became strategicly important to Russia & they knew well that Pakistan has suffered a lot from uncle Sam's back stabbing so with Chinese influence on Pakistan , they are happy to develop Pakistan as a reliable strategic partner ?
For that they can go to any limits ,even supplying su-35s on softer loans or with Chinese financial gurntee & support ?
Both China & Russia wants PAF to fly their super machine & to cover Arabian seas as much as they can ?

US should refrain from fanning S. Asian instability: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

US should refrain from fanning S. Asian instability: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## The Eagle

deathfromabove said:


> *Here's one surprising reason Russia might not want to pick a fight with US planes over Syria*
> 
> The skies over Syria are dangerously crowded these days with the US, Russia, and the Assad regime all bombing various actors on vaguely opposite sides of the country's multidimensional conflict.
> 
> In both Iraq and Syria, the reality of overlapping aerial operations among countries with little geopolitical fondness toward one another has already led to claims that British aircraft have been authorized to engage Russian aircraft over Iraq if threatened.
> 
> The British government denied these reports, but they still underscore the possibility of confrontation between allied and Russian military aircraft.
> 
> Several presidential candidates,including Democratic front-runner and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, have called for an allied-enforced no-fly zone in northern Syria — a development that would be partly aimed at containing Russian operations.
> 
> In Politico, former State Department official Frederic Hof recently advocated a robust US response to any deliberate Russian provocation: "But if Russia seeks out armed confrontation with the United States in Syria, it would be a mistake for Washington to back down," Hof wrote.
> 
> "People like [Russian president Vladimir] Putin will push until they hit steel."
> 
> There's already been one alarming incident: According to AFP, Russia announced on October 14 that one of its planes had approached a US aircraft over Syria "for identification purposes," with one Russian official explaining that Russian aircraft "often come within visual recognition distance of US warplanes and drones."
> 
> So what would happen if Russian and US aircraft began shooting at one another over Syria?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Russian Su-35 Flanker.
> 
> One plausible answer comes from an unlikely source: David E. Hoffman's "The Billion Dollar Spy," a gripping account of Cold War spy Adolf Tolkachev.
> 
> In the early and mid-1980s, Tolkachev, who was the head of a Soviet weapons-research laboratory, gave the CIA specifications for the next decade's worth of Soviet combat-aircraft radar systems.
> 
> "The amazing thing is that Tolkachov was bringing us not only what was happening now but what would be happening 10 years from now," Hoffman told Business Insider in an interview earlier this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tolkachev allowed US military planners to peer into the future of Soviet aircraft capabilities.
> 
> Since the Soviet Union was the US' primary conventional foe, that information led the US to build specific counter-capabilities into its own aircraft — ways of evading advanced Soviet aircraft radar or of exploiting gaps in radar coverage.
> 
> "This intelligence went right into electronics that were deployed, but never mentioned in anyone’s National Intelligence Estimate," Hoffman explained to Business Insider.
> 
> *This technological and intelligence edge is one of the reasons for the US' aerial superiority over Soviet-built combat aircraft since the fall of the Soviet Union*.
> 
> During the 1991 Gulf War, while in "direct aerial combat over Iraq, the US Air Force downed every Soviet-built tactical fighter that it confronted," Hoffman writes, even though they were being flown by pilots from what was then one of the most formidable militaries in the Middle East at the time.
> 
> US pilots had a similarly perfect record when facing off against Yugoslavia's Soviet-built aircraft and air defenses during the 1990s Balkan conflicts.
> 
> "The record is stark," Hoffman writes. "For every six enemy aircraft air force pilots shot down in Korea, the United States lost one. In Vietnam, the United States lost one airplane for every two enemy planes shot down.
> 
> "Thus, the kill ratios went from six to one in Korea, and two to one in Vietnam, to 48-to-zero for the air force in the wars in Iraq and the Balkans."
> 
> As a partial result of Tolkachev's espionage, "The United States has enjoyed almost total air superiority over Soviet-built fighters for more than two decades," he writes.
> 
> The technical superiority that Tolkachev's espionage enabled has applications in the present day, in situations where US aircraft might come into conflict with Soviet fighters built in the 1980s and early 1990s. But it could conceivably extend to planes built after that period as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even some of the most advanced Russian aircraft began their development either at the end of Soviet period or in the immediate post-Soviet period, when communist-era state defense institutes were often left intact.
> 
> For instance, the Su-34 Fullback multirole fighter jet — four of which are currently in Syria —first flew in 1990, although the plane didn't officially enter service until 2014. Russia also has Su-30 Flankers in Syria.
> 
> Both planes are descendants of the SU-27 multirole fighter, the radar specifications of which were fully known to US military planners, thanks to Tolkachev.
> 
> Hoffman speculated to Business Insider that some of Tolkachev's information is still relevant to US national security.
> 
> "I still think there are big parts of what Tolkachev delivered that are still in use and that are legitimately still classified," Hoffman said. "Even though this case is three decades old, it’s quite likely that some of that stuff is still considered pretty valuable intelligence."
> 
> Tolkachev's information helped the US dominate the skies in earlier operations against Soviet-built fighters. And if there's shooting over Syria, an intelligence operation from the Cold War's critical final decade might come in handy all over again.
> 
> US and Russia planes in Syria - Business Insider



Tolkachev' story at some points would b right but US would never say "I know what u will have" to his enemy so Russia may not change strategy of radars etc otherwise it would b a boom and Tolkachev theory would b nothing but costs without piece so the US story in current scenario is nothing but a bluff to make Russian's think and think again over air actions in Syria. Just think that your competitor knows what u r going to bring along in the field so definitely he has something much better then u have, will u still take the same tool? I am sure the answer is NO.



batmannow said:


> I think the policy will be to maintain a balance between the two giants(us nd rus)......
> India doea not expect US to be our strategic ally like soviet was.....its just we need each other which will continue in the form of military purchases and econonic deals like chinooks, f35(in future for IN) and civil nuclear deals
> 
> It will irk russia but the relationship will continue.....the more India develops it military base,the more russia will detach itself from us
> 
> 
> Its not "my defense budget". I am pretty well prepared in my house with over 200 F-22 model RC planes, ready to take on anything within 200 feet of my house   . It was Pakistan's defense budget. And there is no reason to tell you how as you won't buy it and I don't have time to waste with a 30 year old child. So I guess you can write this post number and save it. Come back in 2020 and call me out if I am incorrect? I'll expect defeat and won't write a post about Pakistan's defense budget related predictions......I think its pretty fair?


How old are you?[/QUOTE]
That's just another part of shadow , if you think US will ever give INDIA F-35s you just need to be wake up , cause it just for them & their real strategic partners ?
India can't balance itself much , none of the 2 big giants think positive about this govt , abnocsious policies & its war mogreing ?
state relationships are mostly mixup of economic , strategic , cultural , social intersts it can't be just economy ?
That's what is getting INDIANS on the wrong side , they think they can get whatever they want from who ever ?
even they can push or dictate the 2gaints at their will ?
No India can't do that , both giants has enough power to let India bow down to them when ever they want ?
Right now Pakistan , has became strategicly important to Russia & they knew well that Pakistan has suffered a lot from uncle Sam's back stabbing so with Chinese influence on Pakistan , they are happy to develop Pakistan as a reliable strategic partner ?
For that they can go to any limits ,even supplying su-35s on softer loans or with Chinese financial gurntee & support ?
Both China & Russia wants PAF to fly their super machine & to cover Arabian seas as much as they can ?

US should refrain from fanning S. Asian instability: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

US should refrain from fanning S. Asian instability: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM[/QUOTE]

India is a pet to US as uncle same needs stronghold in South Asia due to China & Russia and only India will give everything to his master. Also Israel never liked Pak and never will because they know what we can do so Israel due to it's influence on US and EU will never wish that PAK may have something English and Russia never liked US or vice versa. CPEC made PAK more valuable and definitely partners would wish for a strong defence so China will definitely provide along with Russia so we can have a strong air defence from north to south and in deep sea as well. 

So I am hoping something good is going to happen by very soon. J-11D is a good choice for the time being to fill the gap till J-31 becomes operational.

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## deathfromabove

The Eagle said:


> Tolkachev' story at some points would b right but US would never say "I know what u will have" to his enemy so Russia may not change strategy of radars etc otherwise it would b a boom and Tolkachev theory would b nothing but costs without piece so the US story in current scenario is nothing but a bluff to make Russian's think and think again over air actions in Syria. Just think that your competitor knows what u r going to bring along in the field so definitely he has something much better then u have, will u still take the same tool? I am sure the answer is NO.



It's just an article worth reading; in reality the outcome of any confrontation will depend upon a range of factors.


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## The Eagle

I know it isn't relevant to thread so my apologies first.
I have been trying to upload my profile pic but it always asking me to download latest version of tapatalk then start processing and so on but nothing happens so also tried to contact Admin by Contact Us option but error occurred. Need help with that. Thnx


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## syed zia Hassan

Zain Malik said:


> Is China agreed to give Pakistan its 5th Gen J20 Aircrafts , Any contract signed between both countries..???


they not disclosed it yet


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## Arsalan

Zain Malik said:


> Is China agreed to give Pakistan its 5th Gen J20 Aircrafts , Any contract signed between both countries..???


PAF seem to be more interested in J31 and yes that would be made available. How it will surely take a couple of years before the planes mature and is thoroughly inspected and evaluated by PAF before going for the purchase.


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## Dukkar

Arsalan said:


> PAF seem to be more interested in J31 and yes that would be made available. How it will surely take a couple of years before the planes mature and is thoroughly inspected and evaluated by PAF before going for the purchase.


su-35 .Will it happen in next


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## Arsalan

Dukkar said:


> su-35 .Will it happen in next


I don't think it will happen ever as my above post suggests

I may be wrong but that is what i feel!

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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> I don't think it will happen ever as my above post suggests
> 
> I may be wrong but that is what i feel!


Friend ,
Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?


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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> Friend ,
> Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?


Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.


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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.


I think the thought is reasonable but I, like you think that SU 35 maybe a bridge too far and will only happen if the Russians are giving us serious and significant concessions like choice of our own radar /EW suite and ability to fire Chinese weapons from the plane(the radar comment is more in relation of ease of integration of other hardware/software than any criticism of the actual radar) The need is definitely there but whether it is for this platform or whether we induct more F16s and bide our time for J31(probably 2023-25 rather than the next 2-3 yrs which you seem to suggest) to come on line remains to be seen. However, one thing needs to be noted, the US can no longer afford to say NO to us as the loss of influence would be huge and strategically it would be a mistake. From Pakistan's perspective we have played down all the hallabulo and HOO Haa in the US news media and quietly presented our case which is a more mature way of doing so. This is a good sign and we should now start asserting our non alligned status by having good relations with Both Russia and USA.
Araz

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> I think the thought is reasonable but I, like you think that SU 35 maybe a bridge too far and will only happen if the Russians are giving us serious and significant concessions like choice of our own radar /EW suite and ability to fire Chinese weapons from the plane(the radar comment is more in relation of ease of integration of other hardware/software than any criticism of the actual radar) The need is definitely there but whether it is for this platform or whether we induct more F16s and bide our time for J31(probably 2023-25 rather than the next 2-3 yrs which you seem to suggest) to come on line remains to be seen. However, one thing needs to be noted, the US can no longer afford to say NO to us as the loss of influence would be huge and strategically it would be a mistake. From Pakistan's perspective we have played down all the hallabulo and HOO Haa in the US news media and quietly presented our case which is a more mature way of doing so. This is a good sign and we should now start asserting our non alligned status by having good relations with Both Russia and USA.
> Araz



mmmm well sir i do not say that the J31 will be next two three years,, It will surely take much more time then this, i will support your view of 2023-2025 time frame. However, the thing is that we simply do not have enough funds to by a bot of all the machines out there. PAF is in love with F-16 and we cant do anything about it. Considering the changing geopolitical situation and alliances, i see US meeting that requirement, even if reluctantly! 
The JF-17 project is PAF's new love affair (and i feel rightly so) so we will see improvements in that plane in next blocks. 

Even all of this above leave us not that well equipped but coming back to finances, this is what best we may see. NO matter how much i believe in the need for a larger heavier twin engine fighter jet for PAF for air dominance,naval strike and deep strike roles i feel the odds are stacked against any Su35 deal, the odd of money, lure of F-16 and the development of JF-17!!

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## Hurter

batmannow said:


> Friend ,
> Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?



And when is ACM visiting Russia?


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## Muhammad Omar

Hurter said:


> And when ACM is visiting Russia?



November

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## araz

Regarding the time frame I merely responded to your post #2735 which to me suggested that you are saying that J31 will mature in a couple of yrs. Rest I full agree with and I dare say it would be amazing to have the 35 in PAF cameo. Even I can dream cant I?
A

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## Muhammad Omar

Shared By @Sulman Badshah


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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.


Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .

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## araz

batmannow said:


> Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .


Fair statement. The change is coming and strategic reallignment is happening. However the relations and trust will take time to establish and whereas the russians are showing a new enthusiasm we just need to ensure we dont land out of the frying pan into the fire. We will slowly buy a lot more but need to do so while furthering our own progress and ensuring some support against a future like one which we are facing with the US. I understand the Russians have never sanctioned anyone but it is nust a matter of establishi g trust.
A

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## batmannow

araz said:


> Fair statement. The change is coming and strategic reallignment is happening. However the relations and trust will take time to establish and whereas the russians are showing a new enthusiasm we just need to ensure we dont land out of the frying pan into the fire. We will slowly buy a lot more but need to do so while furthering our own progress and ensuring some support against a future like one which we are facing with the US. I understand the Russians have never sanctioned anyone but it is nust a matter of establishi g trust.
> A


Friend ,
Just remember , NEED is the mother of every invention ?
Do Russia need Pakistan ?
Do Pakistan need Russia ?
More then ever before ?
Yessssssss ! Lolzz

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## araz

batmannow said:


> Friend ,
> Just remember , NEED is the mother of every invention ?
> Do Russia need Pakistan ?
> Do Pakistan need Russia ?
> More then ever before ?
> Yessssssss ! Lolzz


The problem is Russia has a habit of leaving things in a lurch. There have been many instances even though they have not embargoed nations. Iran comes to mind. That and the situation regarxing a steady supply od sparws maybe two issues that might need to be resolved.
A


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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .



Yes they are,, but not to an extent where i can see Russia dumping India and forming a new alliance with Pakistan. The way forward is actually in non-alliance policy, we need to be neutral in most of the aspects. Good relation all around is the keep to progress. SO YES, while Russian-Pakistan relations are improving and will keep on improving given the current Geo-political situation, it is not going to get to a point where Russia and Pakistan will become allies against the west as some people like to claim, neither it will be Russia-Pakistan relation at the cost of Russia-India relations, they cannot afford that, STILL, WE WILL GET CLOSER GIVEN THE NEW FOUND LOVE BETWEEN INDIAN AND US,, CLOSER I SAY, NOT CLOSEST! this is not going to happen.


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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Yes they are,, but not to an extent where i can see Russia dumping India and forming a new alliance with Pakistan. The way forward is actually in non-alliance policy, we need to be neutral in most of the aspects. Good relation all around is the keep to progress. SO YES, while Russian-Pakistan relations are improving and will keep on improving given the current Geo-political situation, it is not going to get to a point where Russia and Pakistan will become allies against the west as some people like to claim, neither it will be Russia-Pakistan relation at the cost of Russia-India relations, they cannot afford that, STILL, WE WILL GET CLOSER GIVEN THE NEW FOUND LOVE BETWEEN INDIAN AND US,, CLOSER I SAY, NOT CLOSEST! this is not going to happen.


I don't think Russia is going to dump India. In modern age of sales everyone sells to everyone. US is selling to India and Pakistan why cant Russia do the same.I fully agree with you on the policy of non alliance in a world of polarization. However one needs to have mature and articulate politicians for that and you don't have them. I do however think regional interests will drive Pakistan closer to Russia albeit slowly and this would be good for Pakistan as a bit of direct interaction taking out middlemen would save us a few bucks.
A

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Regarding the time frame I merely responded to your post #2735 which to me suggested that you are saying that J31 will mature in a couple of yrs. Rest I full agree with and I dare say it would be amazing to have the 35 in PAF cameo. Even I can dream cant I?
> 
> A



Oo yeah i read that,, i wrote "Couple of years" and that was wrong, it is wrong






I feel it will take some 5 to 7 years to get this flying in PAF. The Chinese are working on the plane, once they have made it capable enough and mature enough PAF (if interested to buy which it seems they will be) will also be giving some technical inputs and then some modifications/up gradations as per our requirement. Only after that we may see J-31 in PAF.


Till that time, i feel that it will be the F-16 (as PAF have shown again that they still totally believe in this plane and are always ready to buy a few more) and JF-17 future blocks. Ideally i will like, in fact love to see some of the underdevelopment systems of J31 being incorporated into future JF17 blocks in this time. This will deliver a much more potent 4.5 generation fighter an thus we can afford to wait for these 5 to 7 years for a proper 5th generation. Not only that but it will surely take JF-17 to a next level. Things like RAM coating, better AESA radar, IRST and avionics. Yes i understand that will make the plane expensive but remember that these we will be inducting as a 4.5+ generation platform and not the 4th generation we are producing currently AND will actually practically help us keep our air force on par for the time till be start getting fifth generation plane.


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## The Eagle

In view of sale and purchase formula it's workable that anyone could by but my opinion is that why always believe to go for purchase well on other hand PAK has learned a lot of JFT programme so PAK should go for a deal where PAK can also participate as a manufacturer so that would help to avoid sitting duck situation if any so should go for a deal with ToT which helps building a wider, brighter and earning future.


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## batmannow

araz said:


> The problem is Russia has a habit of leaving things in a lurch. There have been many instances even though they have not embargoed nations. Iran comes to mind. That and the situation regarxing a steady supply od sparws maybe two issues that might need to be resolved.
> A


Pakistan & Iran are 2 different ball games ?
Not only whole of EU+NATO+ISRAEL+ even the so called powerfull Arabian states were against any sale of any weapons to Iran , by Russia ?
Russia needs a long working Islamic partner , who is been accepted by most of the major players in the world ?
Eu +Israel +Arabs +USA none has any problem to any sale of any kind of conventional weapons to Pakistan.
I think , we need to be a bit more pasamistic at this point , & shouldnt start passing judgements on the issue ?
Russia knows well , just standing with sirya & Iran won't help them to be the key player in the region ?
They are willing for a bigger role , which can be seen as equaliant to. USA ?
That's why even with huge hue & cries from India , they are moving ahead with further more military cooperation with Pakistan .



araz said:


> I don't think Russia is going to dump India. In modern age of sales everyone sells to everyone. US is selling to India and Pakistan why cant Russia do the same.I fully agree with you on the policy of non alliance in a world of polarization. However one needs to have mature and articulate politicians for that and you don't have them. I do however think regional interests will drive Pakistan closer to Russia albeit slowly and this would be good for Pakistan as a bit of direct interaction taking out middlemen would save us a few bucks.
> A


Who is the middle man you think ?



Arsalan said:


> Oo yeah i read that,, i wrote "Couple of years" and that was wrong, it is wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel it will take some 5 to 7 years to get this flying in PAF. The Chinese are working on the plane, once they have made it capable enough and mature enough PAF (if interested to buy which it seems they will be) will also be giving some technical inputs and then some modifications/up gradations as per our requirement. Only after that we may see J-31 in PAF.
> 
> 
> Till that time, i feel that it will be the F-16 (as PAF have shown again that they still totally believe in this plane and are always ready to buy a few more) and JF-17 future blocks. Ideally i will like, in fact love to see some of the underdevelopment systems of J31 being incorporated into future JF17 blocks in this time. This will deliver a much more potent 4.5 generation fighter an thus we can afford to wait for these 5 to 7 years for a proper 5th generation. Not only that but it will surely take JF-17 to a next level. Things like RAM coating, better AESA radar, IRST and avionics. Yes i understand that will make the plane expensive but remember that these we will be inducting as a 4.5+ generation platform and not the 4th generation we are producing currently AND will actually practically help us keep our air force on par for the time till be start getting fifth generation plane.


SU-35 is a 4.5++ generation by the time j-31 gets its ride in the war skies to get mature experiences till then SU-35 could be a force rocking the skies ?
With a new war mongering + violent India trying its best to lock its horns with Pakistan , we need a mid term solution , which can be further advanced / upgraded to 5th generation level ?
So it will remain with us for a long long time to come specially after its future advanced generation & our dear enemy getting PAKFA ?
In that category SU-35 is only left solution available for Pakistan , F-16 with all of its modernization still can't cover huge radius of India nor it can defend our seas ?
JF-17 is a progressing plan , but again it is still far from being a strike force ?
All we need a strike force which can operate deep into enemys lands .
So , after the stament by the DFM of Russia for Su-35 expected sale to Pakistan , we can plan for a small strike air force , of SU-35 s in PAF to jump into action , & strike deep .
Its not the new wonder of the dam world , if Russia sale it to us .


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## TOPGUN

We shall have to see ... but I also have a strong feeling like Arsalan that we won't see these birds in our colors . Hence, more vipers , thunders and J-31 in coming years yes but that's it.

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## Asifkamal

I myself think, we will not see su35 in our airforce. We will continue to purchase second hand f16 and upgrading them. And waiting for true chinease fifth generation fighter aircraft. That seems logical from pakistani, russian and indian perspective


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## Arsalan

batmannow said:


> SU-35 is a 4.5++ generation by the time j-31 gets its ride in the war skies to get mature experiences till then SU-35 could be a force rocking the skies ?
> With a new war mongering + violent India trying its best to lock its horns with Pakistan , we need a mid term solution , which can be further advanced / upgraded to 5th generation level ?
> So it will remain with us for a long long time to come specially after its future advanced generation & our dear enemy getting PAKFA ?
> In that category SU-35 is only left solution available for Pakistan , F-16 with all of its modernization still can't cover huge radius of India nor it can defend our seas ?
> JF-17 is a progressing plan , but again it is still far from being a strike force ?
> All we need a strike force which can operate deep into enemys lands .
> So , after the stament by the DFM of Russia for Su-35 expected sale to Pakistan , we can plan for a small strike air force , of SU-35 s in PAF to jump into action , & strike deep .
> Its not the new wonder of the dam world , if Russia sale it to us .



I agree with the idea of 4.5+ fighter and its need to keep PAF competitive till we start getting fifth generations but presented an alternate path to that and personally i feel that will be more attractive one because financial aspects, because it will be helping a home grown fighter jet get to a new level, because of platform similarity between the existing fleet of 4th generation and that 4.5+ after component integration, because the we do not have experience with Russian fighters in the past and will need a whole new setup for maintenance and stuff to name a few important reasons. 
Also it is known that there have been some strange issue with PAF and twin engine planes for a few decades now.
All this said, inducting a new platform in very low number of 36 or even 48 wont make much sense when you need to setup a whole new facility for maintenance, train a bunch of guys to these operation, COULD have used some equipment from a plane that you are looking to buy in future (J31) and try integrate it in a plane you are operating now and are looking to make it back bone of your force (JF-17)

There is absolutely no doubt at that that Su-35 will offer certain benefits that JF-17 cannot even think off like longer range, much better strike configuration, pay-load and muscle if you may call it, Still, the point is is it or will it be worth THE HUGE costs involved.

Anyway, the talks of Su-35 remain merely rumors for now, lets see what comes of it. Once there are some official signs or confirmation we will surely discuss this further.


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## Immanuel

Well I hate to spoil the party but the Su-35 for Pak is not happening, with Modi going to Russia in Dec and plenty of goodies being bought, any potential deal if ever existed will not go through.

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## madmusti



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## Mike_Brando

madmusti said:


>


What aircraft is this??I mean it looks like a F-15 of the RoK A.F. but i doubt that this gif is real because afaik,F-15 Silent Eagle is still a concept and this looks like a Silent Eagle version with pylons inside the aircraft!!

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## madmusti

*F-15 Silent Eagle (USA - BOEING).*


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## aftab_s81

That's a good one.


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## batmannow

madmusti said:


> *F-15 Silent Eagle (USA - BOEING).*


Nothing compare to SU-35 , its just Americans has more hold on international media , they makeup their products looks better then rest of others ?
F-15 are way old plateforms , just updated avionics which can work great with the USAF huge advanced force ?
But if taken out from that calculation , can't stand alone against sukhoiS 4th & 4.5++ generation .


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## MastanKhan

batmannow said:


> Nothing compare to SU-35 , its just Americans has more hold on international media , they makeup their products looks better then rest of others ?
> F-15 are way old plateforms , just updated avionics which can work great with the USAF huge advanced force ?
> But if taken out from that calculation , can't stand alone against sukhoiS 4th & 4.5++ generation .



Hi,

I would differ from your analysis---. The current Silent eagle is a totally different aircraft than what the original F15 was----. New and upgraded frames---flybywire----all the upto date gadgets and electronics---pods to carry missiles----or mounted in a conventional manner----in performance the closest that you could get to an F35.

Just remember---with the americans---you are not just fighting an aircraft----but a whole group of supporting element.

There is a reason that the Israelis are placing an order of the F15 Silent Eagle.

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## madmusti

batmannow said:


> Nothing compare to SU-35 , its just Americans has more hold on international media , they makeup their products looks better then rest of others ?
> F-15 are way old plateforms , just updated avionics which can work great with the USAF huge advanced force ?
> But if taken out from that calculation , can't stand alone against sukhoiS 4th & 4.5++ generation .




This Baby is enough to even counter alone against 2 of those SU-35 ! Just get those Block 50/52 Variant.

Even USA is still using them ! Did you ever ask yourself why ?

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## bdslph

Su35 will be bought by China UAE and Indonesia 
guess it is also good time Pakistan to try it out to buy


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## monitor

Usman sabbir of Pak def about SU-35 sells to Pakistan 


> I do not believe Russians are serious in selling SU-35 to Pakistan. You have to remember that for Russians, the Indian’s are a big cash cow that they absolutely don’t want to lose. All these leaked news of arms sales to Pakistan is to force Indian’s hand into committing to different purchases that they had been having second thoughts about. Russians understand Indian psychology and know which buttons to push & have done this in the past as well, for example allowing PAF to fly SU-27 in Poland, forcing Indian’s to commit to Su-30 in a haste.



H. Khan about SU-35


> My take is that interest in Su-35 Pak is try to get some type of leeway to buy J-11D or J-16 since these two are two seaters and PN might need something to fly over the seas single seat J-15. But again looking at the paradigm shift in the Geo-strategic alignment in the world specially in Central Asian Republics, Middle East and SCO, the American are getting a little worried and it would be safe to say being marginalized. If the US gets a beating by default Bharat will get also.
> 
> Now the Russian might just keep playing that game of luring Pakistan with some economic and defense offers. This news of Pak And Russia is not a publicity stunt but some which seriously happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I wouldn't mind have around 30 J-11D/J-15/J-16 with PAF. J-15 and J-16 would be better since they have their air frames have been strengthened with anti-corrosion material and newer engines.

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## Sinnerman108

monitor said:


> Usman sabbir of Pak def about SU-35 sells to Pakistan
> 
> 
> H. Khan about SU-35



This is perfect analysis and my belief since the first day.

This "leaking" of news was understandable and worked in both russian and pakistani interest.


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## majid mehmood

Arsalan said:


> Oo yeah i read that,, i wrote "Couple of years" and that was wrong, it is wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel it will take some 5 to 7 years to get this flying in PAF. The Chinese are working on the plane, once they have made it capable enough and mature enough PAF (if interested to buy which it seems they will be) will also be giving some technical inputs and then some modifications/up gradations as per our requirement. Only after that we may see J-31 in PAF.
> 
> 
> Till that time, i feel that it will be the F-16 (as PAF have shown again that they still totally believe in this plane and are always ready to buy a few more) and JF-17 future blocks. Ideally i will like, in fact love to see some of the underdevelopment systems of J31 being incorporated into future JF17 blocks in this time. This will deliver a much more potent 4.5 generation fighter an thus we can afford to wait for these 5 to 7 years for a proper 5th generation. Not only that but it will surely take JF-17 to a next level. Things like RAM coating, better AESA radar, IRST and avionics. Yes i understand that will make the plane expensive but remember that these we will be inducting as a 4.5+ generation platform and not the 4th generation we are producing currently AND will actually practically help us keep our air force on par for the time till be start getting fifth generation plane.


actually in jf blk 3 there would be aesa, lot of ram coating, 40 %composites plus payload upto 5000 kg , 100 kn engine all these things for sure
but these might be there
irst
new dsi intake two seater
more hardpoints to 9
even airframe changes
HEAD MOUNTED DISPLAY 
BLOCK 3 WOULD BE A TRUE 4.5 GENERATION AND FORCE MULTIPLIER FOR PAF

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## ejaz007

Latest Update:

*November 9/15: *The United Arab Emirates is engaged in talks with Russia over a potential acquisition of Su-35s, according to Ria Novosti



. The discussions are taking place at the Dubai Air Show, with Pakistan also thought to be considering



an acquisition of the type, and China and Indonesia also possible export customers for the Su-35.

Russia’s SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More


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## batmannow

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would differ from your analysis---. The current Silent eagle is a totally different aircraft than what the original F15 was----. New and upgraded frames---flybywire----all the upto date gadgets and electronics---pods to carry missiles----or mounted in a conventional manner----in performance the closest that you could get to an F35.
> 
> Just remember---with the americans---you are not just fighting an aircraft----but a whole group of supporting element.
> 
> There is a reason that the Israelis are placing an order of the F15 Silent Eagle.


I'm sure sir ,
That we will be never obliged for that hell of machine & we won't be able to counter it in the skies as we are not hot boggies to USAF or ISF ?
so , comparing it with our needs of hour is just day dreaming ?
We can get SU-35 s then , we should get it that's it .
Su-35s are also reputed mean machines , with good training on them , we won't become a duck to any of these so called super american flying beasts , I'm sure that , sitting in the cockpit of SU-35s up in the air , won't bring any smile on any raptor /F-35 /SILENT EAGLE pilot in the skies maybe against us ?
It will be the game of skills & knowing your systems ?
& yes your 100% right , that USAF not only gets best of the machines made in america but they also prepare science of command & fixing their targets with best of selected weapons .



madmusti said:


> This Baby is enough to even counter alone against 2 of those SU-35 ! Just get those Block 50/52 Variant.
> 
> Even USA is still using them ! Did you ever ask yourself why ?


Wake up chill out , some black coffee ?
Cause its not your Nintendo game ?lolzz
If these were so good , then USA wouldn't has made any of RAPPTORS /F-35s wasting so much money on them ?


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## Yazp

madmusti said:


> This Baby is enough to even counter alone against 2 of those SU-35 ! Just get those Block 50/52 Variant.
> 
> Even USA is still using them ! Did you ever ask yourself why ?


She's a good fighter, for her time. She is almost obsolete, without any serious upgrades, these will be like flying F6's against Mig 29s.


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## DANGER-ZONE

madmusti said:


> This Baby is enough to even counter alone against 2 of those SU-35 ! Just get those Block 50/52 Variant.
> 
> *Even USA is still using them ! Did you ever ask yourself why* ?



Because USA cannot procure or produce FLanker ... That why

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## Muhammad Omar

ejaz007 said:


> Latest Update:
> 
> *November 9/15: *The United Arab Emirates is engaged in talks with Russia over a potential acquisition of Su-35s, according to Ria Novosti
> 
> 
> 
> . The discussions are taking place at the Dubai Air Show, with Pakistan also thought to be considering
> 
> 
> 
> an acquisition of the type, and China and Indonesia also possible export customers for the Su-35.
> 
> Russia’s SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More



Pakistan considering ? not going for it?


----------



## madmusti

batmannow said:


> Wake up chill out , some black coffee ?
> Cause its not your Nintendo game ?lolzz
> If these were so good , then USA wouldn't has made any of RAPPTORS /F-35s wasting so much money on them ?




Why you not wake up ? For a long Time Russian Air Force has even was scared by German F4 ICE !








The Su-35 is nothing more then a Su-27/30 that has different or better upgrades.

It´s the Same Platform nothing new and like the F-16 an Weapon of the Cold War Era.







I would say you should go and find out how much F-16s are in the US Fleet.


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## ejaz007

Muhammad Omar said:


> Pakistan considering ? not going for it?



And where did I say they are going for it.

Considering is the first step and you do not consider a thing that you know is not available to you.


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## batmannow

madmusti said:


> Why you not wake up ? For a long Time Russian Air Force has even was scared by German F4 ICE !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Su-35 is nothing more then a Su-27/30 that has different or better upgrades.
> 
> It´s the Same Platform nothing new and like the F-16 an Weapon of the Cold War Era.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say you should go and find out how much F-16s are in the US Fleet.


I think its too late , you better be going to the school by now ?lolzz
& we have enough of the F-16s , if not we & even USA should just have F-16s in their air force ?
Why bother to , make raptors & F-35 s ?


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## batmannow

*China vows support for CPEC security*
BAQIR SAJJAD SYED — UPDATED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
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RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif and Vice Chairman of Central Military Commission of China General Fan Changlong salute after laying a floral wreath at the Yadgar-i-Shuhada during the Chinese military leader’s visit to the General Headquarters on Thursday.—PPI
ISLAMABAD: China pledged on Thursday to support Pakistan on the security of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.

“We look forward to close cooperation with Pakistan to ensure proper management and security of the CPEC,” Vice Chairman of Central Military Commission of China Gen Fan Changlong was quoted by ISPR as telling Army Chief Gen Raheel Sharif during a meeting at the General Headquarters.

Gen Fan is ranked third in the Chinese hierarchy.

The visit, which took place after a break of 11 years, aims to strengthen military-to-military relations and collaboration on regional peace and stability.

Gen Fan is leading a high-level delegation, which includes Sun Jianguo, Deputy Chief of General Staff of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA), and Zhu Fuxi, Political Commissar of the PLA Chengdu Military Area Command (MAC).

*Chinese general visiting Pakistan to improve military-to-military ties*
The two countries launched this year the $46 billion CPEC project, which connects Gwadar at the Arabian Sea with Xinjiang and includes energy, transportation, and infrastructure projects.

Security has emerged as a major concern in the execution of the project. The Frontier Works Organisation (FWO), which is constructing 870-kilometre road network in Balochistan as part of western route of the CPEC, has lost 25 of its workers — both military personnel and civilians — in about 200 security-related incidents since the start of the work on the road.

Pakistani officials believe that India has been threatening the project because it counterbalances its (Indian) plans for exploiting Chinese weakness in the Indian Ocean by blocking the Strait of Malacca in times of conflict.

Gen Fan, who travels to India after the Pakistan visit, stressed during his meeting at the GHQ that the CPEC was equally beneficial for both Pakistan and China and appreciated Pakistan’s efforts for maintaining its security.

Chinese official Rear Admiral Guan Youfei, while briefing media on Gen Fan’s visit, said that China would meet Pakistan army’s needs for CPEC protection.

The army is setting up a 10,000-strong special force to protect projects to be carried out under the CPEC and Chinese workers associated with them.

DEFENCE COOPERATION: Gen Fan assured his interlocutors that China would continue its defence cooperation with Pakistan.

“China and Pakistan are the best iron brothers, good friends and strategic partners. We share the tradition of mutual understanding, mutual trust and mutual support,” Gen Fan said.

China is Pakistan’s biggest military hardware supplier and it believes that bilateral defence and security cooperation needs to be deepened to enrich the strategic cooperation.

Admiral Youfei told journalists that China would continue its military supplies to Pakistan to enable it to maintain peace in the region.

He underscored that the bilateral defence cooperation was not against any country of the region.

COUNTER-TERRORISM: Military Commission’s Vice Chairman Gen Fan appreciated Pakistan’s successful military operations.

“China values efforts of the Pakistan Army in fighting East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM),” he noted.

The two countries consider ETIM as a common threat. The terrorist group, which previously had sanctuaries in North Waziristan, has been particularly targeted during the Operation Zarb-i-Azb.

Gen Fan later visited the Joint Staff Headquarters where he met the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Gen Rashad Mehmood.

They reaffirmed the resolve to further enhance cooperation between their armed forces, a spokesman for Pakistan military said.

Gen Fan also called on Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

_Published in Dawn, November 13th, 2015_


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## aliyusuf

*Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes*
*



*
MOSCOW: Russia and China have agreed on the sale of 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to Beijing, the Russian state holding Rostec said on Thursday.

The deal - which military experts say could be worth more than $2 billion - represents the first time a foreign state has purchased the Su-35.

A representative of Rostec, speaking to AFP, confirmed a deal had been reached but declined to give details on the price and timeframe for delivery.

Moscow and Beijing have reportedly been in talks about the sale for three years, with Chinese media reporting in 2013 that the country had agreed to their purchase.

Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a leading military and security think tank in Moscow, estimated the deal to be worth more than $2 billion.

“It was the expected amount,” he told AFP.

Moscow and Beijing, which were rivals during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance perceived dominance by the United States.

The sale will also help fill Russia's state coffers as its economy has been reeling from low oil prices and Western sanctions imposed over the Ukraine crisis.

Rostec head Sergei Chemezov told Russian media earlier this month that Moscow was in talks with the United Arab Emirates for the sale of Su-35s.

On its website, Sukhoi describes the Su-35 as an upgraded “fourth-generation” multirole fighter, which first flew as an experimental model in 2007, capable of delivering eight tonnes of ordnance.

Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes - World - DAWN.COM

*The big question is, is this a prelude to a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan? Many pundits and big wigs on this and other forums have been also claiming that the China Su-35 deal is dead just like they have been saying that a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan is wishful thinking.*

*Well they have now been proven wrong on one count. Will they be correct on Pakistan's case remains to be seen.*

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## Muhammad Omar

aliyusuf said:


> *Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> MOSCOW: Russia and China have agreed on the sale of 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to Beijing, the Russian state holding Rostec said on Thursday.
> 
> The deal - which military experts say could be worth more than $2 billion - represents the first time a foreign state has purchased the Su-35.
> 
> A representative of Rostec, speaking to AFP, confirmed a deal had been reached but declined to give details on the price and timeframe for delivery.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing have reportedly been in talks about the sale for three years, with Chinese media reporting in 2013 that the country had agreed to their purchase.
> 
> Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a leading military and security think tank in Moscow, estimated the deal to be worth more than $2 billion.
> 
> “It was the expected amount,” he told AFP.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing, which were rivals during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance perceived dominance by the United States.
> 
> The sale will also help fill Russia's state coffers as its economy has been reeling from low oil prices and Western sanctions imposed over the Ukraine crisis.
> 
> Rostec head Sergei Chemezov told Russian media earlier this month that Moscow was in talks with the United Arab Emirates for the sale of Su-35s.
> 
> On its website, Sukhoi describes the Su-35 as an upgraded “fourth-generation” multirole fighter, which first flew as an experimental model in 2007, capable of delivering eight tonnes of ordnance.
> 
> Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes - World - DAWN.COM
> 
> *The big question is, is this a prelude to a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan? Many pundits and big wigs on this and other forums have been also claiming that the China Su-35 deal is dead just like they have been saying that a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan is wishful thinking.*
> 
> *Well they have now been proven wrong on one count. Will they be correct on Pakistan's case remains to be seen.*



There is a rumor for quiet long now that China will give the Su-35 to PAF if they bought it.....

Still why China just went for just 24? they can buy it in quiet large numbers though.... Can't Pakistan spare 2 Billion Dollars for 24 jets? we signed 5 billion dollar deal of Subs with China


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## batmannow

Muhammad Omar said:


> There is a rumor for quiet long now that China will give the Su-35 to PAF if they bought it.....
> 
> Still why China just went for just 24? they can buy it in quiet large numbers though.... Can't Pakistan spare 2 Billion Dollars for 24 jets? we signed 5 billion dollar deal of Subs with China


I am just waiting to see few big shots & their posts if it happens ?
& I belive its about to happen ,anyways !lolzz
Its coming !



aliyusuf said:


> *Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> MOSCOW: Russia and China have agreed on the sale of 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to Beijing, the Russian state holding Rostec said on Thursday.
> 
> The deal - which military experts say could be worth more than $2 billion - represents the first time a foreign state has purchased the Su-35.
> 
> A representative of Rostec, speaking to AFP, confirmed a deal had been reached but declined to give details on the price and timeframe for delivery.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing have reportedly been in talks about the sale for three years, with Chinese media reporting in 2013 that the country had agreed to their purchase.
> 
> Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a leading military and security think tank in Moscow, estimated the deal to be worth more than $2 billion.
> 
> “It was the expected amount,” he told AFP.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing, which were rivals during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance perceived dominance by the United States.
> 
> The sale will also help fill Russia's state coffers as its economy has been reeling from low oil prices and Western sanctions imposed over the Ukraine crisis.
> 
> Rostec head Sergei Chemezov told Russian media earlier this month that Moscow was in talks with the United Arab Emirates for the sale of Su-35s.
> 
> On its website, Sukhoi describes the Su-35 as an upgraded “fourth-generation” multirole fighter, which first flew as an experimental model in 2007, capable of delivering eight tonnes of ordnance.
> 
> Russia, China agree on $2 billion deal for 24 Su-35 warplanes - World - DAWN.COM
> 
> *The big question is, is this a prelude to a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan? Many pundits and big wigs on this and other forums have been also claiming that the China Su-35 deal is dead just like they have been saying that a possible Su-35 sale to Pakistan is wishful thinking.*
> 
> *Well they have now been proven wrong on one count. Will they be correct on Pakistan's case remains to be seen.*


Its nearly a heart attack to all of those who thought its been dead ?lolzz

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## Muhammad Omar

batmannow said:


> I am just waiting to see few big shots & their posts if it happens ?
> & I belive its about to happen ,anyways !lolzz
> Its coming !
> 
> 
> Its nearly a heart attack to all of those who thought its been dead ?lolzz



Insha Allah

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## aliyusuf

Muhammad Omar said:


> There is a rumor for quiet long now that China will give the Su-35 to PAF if they bought it.....
> 
> Still why China just went for just 24? they can buy it in quiet large numbers though.... Can't Pakistan spare 2 Billion Dollars for 24 jets? we signed 5 billion dollar deal of Subs with China



Too early to say. Maybe China is pitching in with this token purchase to sweeten the deal enough for Russia to be financially interested enough to sell to Pakistan with perhaps easy payment scheduling.



batmannow said:


> Its nearly a heart attack to all of those who thought its been dead ?lolzz



Lets wait and see.

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## Quwa

Assuming there's actual life left in the Pakistan Su-35 story, it's still going to take a few years before they can reach a settlement. Let's assume Russia is even remotely willing to sell, Moscow and Islamabad will have to clear details such as end user modifications and payment. In Pakistan's case we're not talking about big cash advances, but a 10-15 year payment plan. The Russians generally offer it, but given the complaints they'll hear from India, we'll run into hiccups. What PAF should do is save and offer the vendor (Russia or otherwise) a $1bn up front in cold cash at the time of delivery. So while Pakistan would still need a payment plan or line of credit, it can at least show some genuine goodwill by offering a very big first payment.


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## syed_yusuf

PAF i snot getting Su-35

this Chinese purchase is the start of Chinese buy of Su-35.


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## Barrel-Bomba

Muhammad Omar said:


> There is a rumor for quiet long now that *China will give the Su-35 to PAF if they bought it*.....


dafuq ?


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## Muhammad Omar

Barrel-Bomba said:


> dafuq ?



Means they will give it on soft loans


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## Barrel-Bomba

Muhammad Omar said:


> Means they will give it on soft loans


lol


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## Muhammad Omar

Barrel-Bomba said:


> lol



is there anything funny here?


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## Barrel-Bomba

Muhammad Omar said:


> is there anything funny here?


yes, there is much ? 

what on earth makes you think China will make a purchase of these planes from Russia just to... hand them over to you, and you pay for them in........... 'soft loans' ? 

these aren't like sportscars and cessna business jets that any pig with money can buy, for example.. your taller than mountain allies, along with Russia and basically every other 'customer/ally' of the US are strictly prohibited, as in, you are required to stop them, with lethal force if need be.. before they get close to US supplied F 16s 

don't dramatize it in your imagination but that's basically it, like the PAF can not be in an aerial wargames exercise with Chinese jets vs their F16s

though I could be completely wrong about that.. 

maybe they do participate with other sovereign states, but with their radars on training mode, do they ?


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## Muhammad Omar

Barrel-Bomba said:


> yes, there is much ?
> 
> what on earth makes you think China will make a purchase of these planes from Russia just to... hand them over to you, and you pay for them in........... 'soft loans' ?
> 
> these aren't like sportscars and cessna business jets that any pig with money can buy, for example.. your taller than mountain allies, along with Russia and basically every other 'customer/ally' of the US are strictly prohibited, as in, you are required to stop them, with lethal force if need be.. before they get close to US supplied F 16s
> 
> don't dramatize it in your imagination but that's basically it, like the PAF can not be in an aerial wargames exercise with Chinese jets vs their F16s
> 
> though I could be completely wrong about that..
> 
> maybe they do participate with other sovereign states, but with their radars on training mode, do they ?



Stop being dumb and read my 1st post again i used the word rumor.... know the meaning of that? there were many articled on that do some search rather then brain farts here


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## Barrel-Bomba

Muhammad Omar said:


> Stop being dumb and read my 1st post again i used the word rumor.... know the meaning of that? there were many articled on that do some search rather then brain farts here


yeah there were many articles but once they made the s400 news public, I thought all the rumors would have been put to rest ?

in all seriousness, it should be F-15s and Eurofighters your AF should be looking at acquiring, Su 35 is just not going to happen, both India and Pak airforces are in too deep with their respective vendors, big money, very big money and geopolitics.. lockheed martin and US got PAF, and Russian firms have a monopoly over the Indian fighter market..


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## batmannow

Barrel-Bomba said:


> yeah there were many articles but once they made the s400 news public, I thought all the rumors would have been put to rest ?
> 
> in all seriousness, it should be F-15s and Eurofighters your AF should be looking at acquiring, Su 35 is just not going to happen, both India and Pak airforces are in too deep with their respective vendors, big money, very big money and geopolitics.. lockheed martin and US got PAF, and Russian firms have a monopoly over the Indian fighter market..


Oh sure that's why our thunders are thundering the skies with Russian made RD-93s ?lolzz
Its coming the ultimate end of Indian stupid politics , I just want to see your face , looking at the pics of SU-35S in pak camouflage colours over Pakistani skies ?lolzz
It will be epic secene ?lolzz



Saqr said:


> Assuming there's actual life left in the Pakistan Su-35 story, it's still going to take a few years before they can reach a settlement. Let's assume Russia is even remotely willing to sell, Moscow and Islamabad will have to clear details such as end user modifications and payment. In Pakistan's case we're not talking about big cash advances, but a 10-15 year payment plan. The Russians generally offer it, but given the complaints they'll hear from India, we'll run into hiccups. What PAF should do is save and offer the vendor (Russia or otherwise) a $1bn up front in cold cash at the time of delivery. So while Pakistan would still need a payment plan or line of credit, it can at least show some genuine goodwill by offering a very big first payment.


Pakistan has the largest of cash holders as its cash gurneteers , don't you still know China ?lolzz
It will make the whole dam financial plan move forward in a second ?
Pakistan & Russia has a very unique , rich partner/ friend , super trust worthy friend China which can make things very very soft , so get a chill pill & sleep ?

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## Akasa

Muhammad Omar said:


> There is a rumor for quiet long now that China will give the Su-35 to PAF if they bought it.....
> 
> Still why China just went for just 24? they can buy it in quiet large numbers though.... Can't Pakistan spare 2 Billion Dollars for 24 jets? we signed 5 billion dollar deal of Subs with China



China probably won't view the Su-35 as a major player in a future PLAAF scenario, especially with the advent of the J-11D/J-16. The deal is likely due to a requirement for its engines.

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## jupiter2007

Barrel-Bomba said:


> yeah there were many articles but once they made the s400 news public, I thought all the rumors would have been put to rest ?
> 
> in all seriousness, it should be F-15s and Eurofighters your AF should be looking at acquiring, Su 35 is just not going to happen, both India and Pak airforces are in too deep with their respective vendors, big money, very big money and geopolitics.. lockheed martin and US got PAF, and Russian firms have a monopoly over the Indian fighter market..



*Pakistan will not buy F-15s and Europfighter is too expensive for PAF.
Pakistan current options are surplus F-16s from USA and Europe, F-16 block 52/60, SU-35 and J-11/16.
J-10c is no longer a an option for PAF unless other deals don't go through. *


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## abdulbarijan

As of right now, the Chinese deal of 24 SU-35's seems to be confirmed, it has been reported as such by the *Reuters, Sputnik International & IHS Janes ..* Good catch @aliyusuf

Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets| Reuters
Russia Confirms Signing Contract With China on Delivery of 24 Su-35 Jets
Russia to supply China with 24 Su-35 fighters | IHS Jane's 360



Barrel-Bomba said:


> yes, there is much ?
> 
> what on earth makes you think China will make a purchase of these planes from Russia just to... hand them over to you, and you pay for them in........... 'soft loans' ?
> 
> these aren't like sportscars and cessna business jets that any pig with money can buy, for example.. your taller than mountain allies, along with Russia and basically every other 'customer/ally' of the US are strictly prohibited, as in, you are required to stop them, with lethal force if need be.. before they get close to US supplied F 16s
> 
> don't dramatize it in your imagination but that's basically it, like the PAF can not be in an aerial wargames exercise with Chinese jets vs their F16s
> 
> though I could be completely wrong about that..
> 
> maybe they do participate with other sovereign states, but with their radars on training mode, do they ?



_I would agree with you that China wouldn't simply go on and procure a squadron of aircrafts just to re-export them to Pakistan_. The discussion if you actually refer back to it revolved around a customized "chinese SU-35 solution", where the PAF would get the SU-35's re-exported from China with certain Chinese systems on it, and this idea would be sold that a "downgraded" SU-35 is what PAF got ... This was one of the ideas that was floated back in the day when this topic was hot and was discussed to the death, for which the conclusion was something like ... "nahhh doesn't seem too likely" ... Then there was also the idea where a deal could be made with the Russians to allow the export of a certain J-11 version, where we could pay the Russian certain royalties .... So there were alot of possibilities discussed on this forum ...

However, let me just borrow from your post ... the F-16 you talk of, was infact actually denied to PAF post 2001.When PAF asked for BLK-52, due to the US concerns about the Chinese, the initial response was a decline and it was infact the PAF that came up with the solution to station the F-16 blk-52's at Jacobabad with no Chinese presence at the base. So, while you use the F-16 to propagate that it not being involved with exercises with Chinese counter parts shows that such defence matters involve "terms & conditions" to them ...

_However, the funny thing is the same F-16 blk-52 deal with the US shows that, terms and conditions can be negotiated, solutions can be found .. and there is a certain situation in which both parties can consider it an okay deal and finalize it ..._

On a side note, its actually quite amusing to see an Indian mention training mode of a radar, I haven't heard that term over this forum for about 3-4 years now ... as it was made famous right after that clip of a USAF fighter pilot leaked which was an embarrassing incident for the IAF, because for all the victories it had claimed, be it indradhanush, Cope Indias etc. The reality was slowly but surely seeping out ... and in came the IAF fanboy brigade with the argument that because the Bars was in training mode .. therefore the Americans had an advantage ..... good old times ..

You are absolutely right on this one .. this is no cessna or sports car deal which any "pig with money can buy" ... the latter part describing the Indian policy to perfection ... Remember the time where the MMRCA was used to cancel the avionics deal of JFT ... yeah it came back on the table when the Indians were still not clear if they wanted to buy or not ... and sure enough .. Modi went and agreed upon buying 36 jets in flyaway condition .... But then again, the deal is now a third of its strength and who knows .. the avionics deal of JFT might come up from time to time in your transactions ...

Take a look at the Russians then, you go to the west, and your "best friend" the country whose Deputy prime minister was ready to take a good spitting in the face if Russia were to sell any military equipment to Pakistan_, __is now being taken as the most serious contender for supplying all the engines RD-93 for the JFT that PAF will use, present and in to the future . _The same "best friend" that was the one breaking the news of Pakistan being a potential customer of the SU-35 through an article in Sputnik and then the statement by Depty FM ... and while you continue to believe that a S-400 deal will resolve the issue, you cutting the PAK-FA deal to 1/3rd its strength has alot to do with it as well ... and _plus Chinese interests in protecting CPEC, and Russia being quite interested in the project itself, with India going shopping in the west diversifying its suppliers dictates the point I'm trying to make which is ..._* 
With the evolving geo-economic & political conditions .. anything at this point remains a possibility* ...

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## Barrel-Bomba

abdulbarijan said:


> *With the evolving geo-economic & political conditions .. anything at this point remains a possibility* ...


I don't foresee any drastic changes in the geo political environment in the near term, for now, Pakistan will continue to fly American and Chinese fighters while India stay with Russian ones, at least till the (still not inducted0 5th gens are close to retiring.


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## Akasa

abdulbarijan said:


> As of right now, the Chinese deal of 24 SU-35's seems to be confirmed, it has been reported as such by the *Reuters, Sputnik International & IHS Janes ..* Good catch @aliyusuf
> 
> Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets| Reuters
> Russia Confirms Signing Contract With China on Delivery of 24 Su-35 Jets
> Russia to supply China with 24 Su-35 fighters | IHS Jane's 360
> 
> 
> 
> _I would agree with you that China wouldn't simply go on and procure a squadron of aircrafts just to re-export them to Pakistan_. The discussion if you actually refer back to it revolved around a customized "chinese SU-35 solution", where the PAF would get the SU-35's re-exported from China with certain Chinese systems on it, and this idea would be sold that a "downgraded" SU-35 is what PAF got ... This was one of the ideas that was floated back in the day when this topic was hot and was discussed to the death, for which the conclusion was something like ... "nahhh doesn't seem too likely" ... Then there was also the idea where a deal could be made with the Russians to allow the export of a certain J-11 version, where we could pay the Russian certain royalties .... So there were alot of possibilities discussed on this forum ...



Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.


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## Asifkamal

I know only one thing. Its decision time. Since 1990,s PAF is struggling. Sometime purchasing second hand mirages from australia,france,belgium,lebnon sometime purchasing F7 PG like old technology fighters in the event of coming war with india in 2003_4( PAF wpuld have never purchased, otherwise in 21st century) . And what to talk about having no BVR and doing anti BVR measures.....
IF Navy can purchase 8 submarienes on 4_5 billion dollars deal, if Army can purchase advance Cobra (16 examples) on 1 billion dollar deal, then its high time to go for 5 billion dollars deal of 60 su35 ..otherwise subs and cobras will be sitting ducks for indians. If Russians are not selling , go for Grippen NG .we can purchase atleast 50 Grippen at 5 billion dollars. Because by 2020_22 whole scinario will be different. Indians wpuld be masters of Rafale and su30 and no option will be left for us for immidiate reply. Even if we purchase Eurofighter at 135million dollars a piece, 36 such fighters will manage all our weaknesses. What we are doing is, we are just observing and waiting and evaluating till next better aircraft come in market


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## HRK

SinoSoldier said:


> Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.



this term 'downgraded' will be used as 'A Marketing Term' to satisfy some ego of other Market customers of Russian weapon *if* that option of SU-35 sales to Pakistan via China will ever be exercised.


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## Akasa

HRK said:


> this term 'downgraded' will be used as 'A Marketing Term' to satisfy some ego of other Market customers of Russian weapon *if* that option of SU-35 sales to Pakistan via China will ever be exercised.



Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?


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## HRK

SinoSoldier said:


> Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?



As I said earlier _that may be one of the options not necessarily be exercised by concerns_ .... & buying of Su-35 from Russia by Pakistan may be more difficult on political grounds then the financial prospect of this deal .... so the indirect approach via China (after used by PLAAF just for 2-3 years of services) could provide face saving to both the Russian & Indian sides ....


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## Akasa

HRK said:


> As I said earlier _that may be one of the options not necessarily be exercised by concerns_ .... & buying of Su-35 from Russia by Pakistan may be more difficult on political grounds then the financial prospect of this deal .... so the indirect approach via China (after used by PLAAF just for 2-3 years of services) could provide face saving to both the Russian & Indian sides ....



The current rumor is that these jets will be fitted with Chinese subsystems, including avionics and weaponry; it looks like these jets are more suited for the PLAAF, which is interested in the 117S engines.

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## abdulbarijan

Barrel-Bomba said:


> I don't foresee any drastic changes in the geo political environment in the near term, for now, Pakistan will continue to fly American and Chinese fighters while India stay with Russian ones, at least till the (still not inducted0 5th gens are close to retiring.



Well that would be your opinion, an opinion that can be easily refuted using the argument of Russia selling the most key component of a fighter sorted to become PAF's backbone... Economic cooperation with Pakistan aside, the fact that Russia would resort to arm pulling of India, using Pakistan ... is something that should concern you ... The only difference this time around is ... the once "mild jabs" are actually hitting this time around ... We all know the episode of RD-93 ...

So while you can stick with your opinion of in the shorter term there wont be any significant change, however the fact is while the argument maybe a little valid with the case of Pak-Russia military relations and certainly it will take time before Pakistan has significant deals from Russia ... but the writing is on the wall though ..

On the other hand Indo-Russian relations have changed ... With India going to the west, screwing the ruskies out of the MMRCA, reducing orders of Pak-FA, the inevitable reality that India has to face is that ... Russia is not the "all weather friend" it once was ... the partnership has transformed from a very strong friendship to the state where Russia and India are "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" -- just that Russia is like "if need be, we'll also twist your arms or get you by the balls" ...




SinoSoldier said:


> Why would a Su-35 with Chinese subsystems be a "downgrade"? If anything, the Chinese would slap on a new AESA, next generation EW/ECM systems, etc.



I don't mean that the SU-35 as a fighter platform would be "downgraded" -- the idea which was put forth, which I was quoting was -- to sell the "IDEA" that the platform is downgraded, which would be relatively easy, seeing how the every day lalu, karthick and Virat (Indian version of the Tom, Dick & Harry) view the Chinese equipment as substandard ...

The _Idea was to sell a perception so that Russia doesn't have to face the brunt of the Indian questions on how it is selling its "absolute best" to Pakistan ... China gets in a much more comfortable position as the defense of the investments in CPEC project especially over the waters is beefed up... and the lethality of PAF is increased due to the arrival of a latest strike platform with a huge range and payload on it ... so a "win win win" ..._.




SinoSoldier said:


> Why would be buying through the Chinese be any cheaper than doing so from Moscow?


It won't be cheaper ... but looking at the jets of the same class .. Rafale deal of Egypt with the same strength i.e 24 was worth nearly 6 Billion US dollars, the deal for EF-2000 with Oman was worth nearly 2.5 Billion dollars and only involved 12 EF-2000's and 8 Hawks ... Similar jets of the same class of aircrafts from the west cost alot more ... although the argument could be made for the maintenance costs etc. however ultimately the western counter parts will cost more ... just by the looks of the deals signed ... 

The acquisition process of PAF will be guided by its needs .. PN is spending nearly 8 Billion for its modernization .. PAF has already found a cost effective solution to replace its entire old fleet in JFT ... what PAF needs right now is be vigilant and acquire the second hand MLU'ed falcons (1-2 squadrons would be enough) --- and sit tight while working on the JFT project. As soon as the JFT block III's first squadron gets in to operational service that would be the time to go big with a deal of a squadron of a high end platform (SU-35/J-11 etc.) depending on the needs, the geo-political situation and the economic realities that Pakistan has to face ...


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## volatile

Asifkamal said:


> I know only one thing. Its decision time. Since 1990,s PAF is struggling. Sometime purchasing second hand mirages from australia,france,belgium,lebnon sometime purchasing F7 PG like old technology fighters in the event of coming war with india in 2003_4( PAF wpuld have never purchased, otherwise in 21st century) . And what to talk about having no BVR and doing anti BVR measures.....
> IF Navy can purchase 8 submarienes on 4_5 billion dollars deal, if Army can purchase advance Cobra (16 examples) on 1 billion dollar deal, then its high time to go for 5 billion dollars deal of 60 su35 ..otherwise subs and cobras will be sitting ducks for indians. If Russians are not selling , go for Grippen NG .we can purchase atleast 50 Grippen at 5 billion dollars. Because by 2020_22 whole scinario will be different. Indians wpuld be masters of Rafale and su30 and no option will be left for us for immidiate reply. Even if we purchase Eurofighter at 135million dollars a piece, 36 such fighters will manage all our weaknesses. What we are doing is, we are just observing and waiting and evaluating till next better aircraft come in market


I respect your emotions but Gripen NG is not an option simply US Engine and JF17 offering more punch in less price ,This i will agree with you that some deal has to be finalized bcas as i see this region is going for a war in coming 5 years so its better to equip personally i prefer Rafael over Euro fighter but it is not happening realistically we should be considering J10 b/c or Su 35 .As one has to recall policy statment by PAF ,We are looking for fighters in both East and West ,From West F16 is there Local option is Chinese + PAF thunder ,From East only aero plane left is only SU 35 which should come 24 may be

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## Barrel-Bomba

abdulbarijan said:


> Well that would be your opinion, an opinion that can be easily refuted using the argument of Russia selling the most key component of a fighter sorted to become PAF's backbone... Economic cooperation with Pakistan aside, the fact that Russia would resort to arm pulling of India, using Pakistan ... is something that should concern you ... The only difference this time around is ... the once "mild jabs" are actually hitting this time around ... We all know the episode of RD-93 ...
> 
> So while you can stick with your opinion of in the shorter term there wont be any significant change, however the fact is while the argument maybe a little valid with the case of Pak-Russia military relations and certainly it will take time before Pakistan has significant deals from Russia ... but the writing is on the wall though ..
> 
> On the other hand Indo-Russian relations have changed ... With India going to the west, screwing the ruskies out of the MMRCA, reducing orders of Pak-FA, the inevitable reality that India has to face is that ... Russia is not the "all weather friend" it once was ... the partnership has transformed from a very strong friendship to the state where Russia and India are "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" -- just that Russia is like "if need be, we'll also twist your arms or get you by the balls" ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean that the SU-35 as a fighter platform would be "downgraded" -- the idea which was put forth, which I was quoting was -- to sell the "IDEA" that the platform is downgraded, which would be relatively easy, seeing how the every day lalu, karthick and Virat (Indian version of the Tom, Dick & Harry) view the Chinese equipment as substandard ...
> 
> The _Idea was to sell a perception so that Russia doesn't have to face the brunt of the Indian questions on how it is selling its "absolute best" to Pakistan ... China gets in a much more comfortable position as the defense of the investments in CPEC project especially over the waters is beefed up... and the lethality of PAF is increased due to the arrival of a latest strike platform with a huge range and payload on it ... so a "win win win" ..._.
> 
> 
> 
> It won't be cheaper ... but looking at the jets of the same class .. Rafale deal of Egypt with the same strength i.e 24 was worth nearly 6 Billion US dollars, the deal for EF-2000 with Oman was worth nearly 2.5 Billion dollars and only involved 12 EF-2000's and 8 Hawks ... Similar jets of the same class of aircrafts from the west cost alot more ... although the argument could be made for the maintenance costs etc. however ultimately the western counter parts will cost more ... just by the looks of the deals signed ...
> 
> The acquisition process of PAF will be guided by its needs .. PN is spending nearly 8 Billion for its modernization .. PAF has already found a cost effective solution to replace its entire old fleet in JFT ... what PAF needs right now is be vigilant and acquire the second hand MLU'ed falcons (1-2 squadrons would be enough) --- and sit tight while working on the JFT project. As soon as the JFT block III's first squadron gets in to operational service that would be the time to go big with a deal of a squadron of a high end platform (SU-35/J-11 etc.) depending on the needs, the geo-political situation and the economic realities that Pakistan has to face ...



oh dear, so desperate for flankers

too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.


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## batmannow

Barrel-Bomba said:


> I don't foresee any drastic changes in the geo political environment in the near term, for now, Pakistan will continue to fly American and Chinese fighters while India stay with Russian ones, at least till the (still not inducted0 5th gens are close to retiring.


You can't see anything cause you are blinded with your biased , thinking towards Pakistan ?lolzz



Barrel-Bomba said:


> oh dear, so desperate for flankers
> 
> too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.


No its you despertly denying & living in the state of denial ?lolzz


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## Barrel-Bomba

batmannow said:


> You can't see anything cause you are blinded with your biased , thinking towards Pakistan ?lolzz
> 
> 
> No its you despertly denying & living in the state of denial ?lolzz


PAF have exactly 0% chance of buying su 35


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## majid mehmood

Barrel-Bomba said:


> PAF have exactly 0% chance of buying su 35


the same comments u made when we buying mi 35
that we will cancel all our deal with russia BUT
nothing happened 
india was like 
pakistan is looking for a heavy fighter for its navy as told by friend of mine who works in paf


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## Barrel-Bomba

majid mehmood said:


> pakistan is looking for a heavy fighter for its navy as told by friend of mine who works in paf


wont be SU 35


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## majid mehmood

Barrel-Bomba said:


> wont be SU 35


time will tell that but this is what i said earlier 
*"i was thinking for some days and came up that
Russia is not foolish that it will sell weapons and will lose Indian defense market share
BUT they are most intelligent
but if u see that if Pakistan buy weapons from Russia then many Arab countries would buy and they would gain more profit
just like pak buying weapons from china and countries like Egypt bought it and even Chinese missile were bought buy ksa even though Chinese thing are recognized as degraded in Arab world but after pak bought it many Arab world did it

so in my opinion i would say russia is selling pak its weapons because Pakistan will pave road for Russia to sell its weapon to Arab world and make triple profit*
and diversify its market than solely depending on Indian*"*


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## Bossman

Barrel-Bomba said:


> oh dear, so desperate for flankers
> 
> too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.



Poor Indians have been saying such things for the last 80 years and have always been proven wrong. They said Pakistan is not possible, Pakistan was created. Then they said and continue to say that Pakistan will not survive. We are still around and a bigger pain in their @$$ with every passing year. They said Pakistan cannot get the bomb. Once we did they they have the bomb but they cannot deliver. Pakistan gets better delivery system than India. Same story with Jf 17s, F16, mi 35s etc etc. Their inherent bias towards Pakistan is our best asset.

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## abdulbarijan

Barrel-Bomba said:


> oh dear, so desperate for flankers
> 
> too bad you're not getting any, deal with it.



_Brings back old memories of trolls that said the same about RD-93 .. turns out we have 60 JFT's operational with the same engine we were "never getting because of the Indian influence" _... 

The reality of the situation is Pakistan needs a strike platform for CPEC/EEZ .. that doesn't mean it has to be the SU-35.. It certainly would be in contention though .. however .. it could be another solution altogether ... as of right now the priorities include the JFT and replacing the old platforms from our fleet ...

and while you talk of things "never happening" do remember that the gesture was made BY THE* RUSSIANS* .. when *RUSSIAN Deputy FM* told about the consideration of SU-35 ... it was *Sputnik *another *RUSSIAN* based magazine that first termed PAF as a potential customer of the SU-35...You shouldn't be talking of Pakistan's "desperation" when all the initial suggestions/comments came from the *RUSSIAN *side ... However the desperation of Indian fanboys in trying to prove to nobody but themselves that such a deal "will never happen" is amusing ...one which we're more then happy to deal with ..

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## Hammad ur Rehman

Russia has already given a draft agreement for purchase of Su-35s to Pakistan & PAF is evaluating it & other options & will soon decide. Perhaps they will start with a squadron of 18 & then add more for total 4-5 squadrons gradually.

When India can buy from every where then Russia can also sell to anyone irregardless of the strategic agreement between them which I believe does not say that they cannot sell to Pakistan. It was Russia itself which had restrained not to sell to Pakistan but geo-politics changes & it will happen soon.

The reason for initial wpould be finance & to see maintainance issues as IAF has a very poor record & availability is around 60% or even less. Besides HAL's build quality is very poor. Even a plane's canopy cannot fit into another plane without some alteration what to talk about other critical parts.

So don't worry it is coming unless PAF has other alternatives.

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## syed_yusuf

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> Russia has already given a draft agreement for purchase of Su-35s to Pakistan & PAF is evaluating it & other options & will soon decide. Perhaps they will start with a squadron of 18 & then add more for total 4-5 squadrons gradually.
> 
> When India can buy from every where then Russia can also sell to anyone irregardless of the strategic agreement between them which I believe does not say that they cannot sell to Pakistan. It was Russia itself which had restrained not to sell to Pakistan but geo-politics changes & it will happen soon.
> 
> The reason for initial wpould be finance & to see maintainance issues as IAF has a very poor record & availability is around 60% or even less. Besides HAL's build quality is very poor. Even a plane's canopy cannot fit into another plane without some alteration what to talk about other critical parts.
> 
> So don't worry it is coming unless PAF has other alternatives.



How authentic this news is?


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## batmannow

Barrel-Bomba said:


> PAF have exactly 0% chance of buying su 35


& you have -0000% knowledge about it ?lolzz

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## Beast

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> Russia has already given a draft agreement for purchase of Su-35s to Pakistan & PAF is evaluating it & other options & will soon decide. Perhaps they will start with a squadron of 18 & then add more for total 4-5 squadrons gradually.
> 
> When India can buy from every where then Russia can also sell to anyone irregardless of the strategic agreement between them which I believe does not say that they cannot sell to Pakistan. It was Russia itself which had restrained not to sell to Pakistan but geo-politics changes & it will happen soon.
> 
> The reason for initial wpould be finance & to see maintainance issues as IAF has a very poor record & availability is around 60% or even less. Besides HAL's build quality is very poor. Even a plane's canopy cannot fit into another plane without some alteration what to talk about other critical parts.
> 
> So don't worry it is coming unless PAF has other alternatives.


PAF already bought 24 of Su-35.

Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets

These Su-35 will be transfer from China to PAF in the pretense of China selling to PAF which fault will not lies on Russia.

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## Basel

Beast said:


> PAF already bought 24 of Su-35.
> 
> Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets
> 
> These Su-35 will be transfer from China to PAF in the pretense of China selling to PAF which fault will not lies on Russia.



What??? :-O

When did that happened?? Any source??


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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> PAF already bought 24 of Su-35.
> 
> Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets
> 
> These Su-35 will be transfer from China to PAF in the pretense of China selling to PAF which fault will not lies on Russia.



Are you serious sir?


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## Beast

Muhammad Omar said:


> Are you serious sir?



These kind of under table deal, and you expect an official comfirmation from Russian and Chinese?

Russian want to push all blames on Chinese and Indian can't say a thing on Chinese since China need not answer to India.

Remember RD-93 engine for JF-17? China as middleman for PAF.

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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> These kind of under table deal, and you expect an official comfirmation from Russian and Chinese?
> 
> Russian want to push all blames on Chinese and Indian can't say a thing on Chinese since China need not answer to India.
> 
> Remember RD-93 engine for JF-17? China as middleman for PAF.



Nah i know this will happen.. China will buy Su-35 and later will be given to PAF ... by doing that India will have no objections against Russians ....

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## syed_yusuf

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nah i know this will happen.. China will buy Su-35 and later will be given to PAF ... by doing that India will have no objections against Russians ....



This is all speculation - this will not happen. Su-35 carries among other things most advance Russian engine


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## ArsalanKhan21

syed_yusuf said:


> This is all speculation - this will not happen. Su-35 carries among other things most advance Russian engine



I would say it is very possible that Russia would agree to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

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## batmannow

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> I would say it is very possible that Russia would agree to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.


Still possible ?even after their DFM openly said it ?still having doubts ?my god !


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## ArsalanKhan21

batmannow said:


> Still possible ?even after their DFM openly said it ?still having doubts ?my god !



They sold S-300 to Iran but never delivered.


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## batmannow

syed_yusuf said:


> This is all speculation - this will not happen. Su-35 carries among other things most advance Russian engine


Stop living in your dam world of denial & read that its been stated by their own DFM , so stop your doubts in your mind ?



ArsalanKhan21 said:


> They sold S-300 to Iran but never delivered.


They sold rd-93 & its been in the skies ?

& Iranian s got that ,s-300 thing in different style or model , which will be showen later claiming to be made in Iran ?
job done !


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## Hammad ur Rehman

syed_yusuf said:


> How authentic this news is?


Check the news

*Pakistan-Russia Relationship – Closing in on Su-35 and Mi-35s Delivery*
Mi-35, Pakistan, Russia, Su-35

*Pakistan-Russia relationship* is set to grow with talks about delivery *Mi-35M helicopters* and *Su-35 fighter jets *continues. This comes from the Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov. Earlier in this year, Moscow sent a draft contract to Islamabad regarding the delivery of four *Mi-35M ‘Hind E’* combat helicopters and* Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets*. It would seem that the draft contract has been bumped up a level considering the talks being held, as we speak, regarding the delivery of said machines. These helicopters and fighter jets would become a valuable to addition to Pakistan’s growing air force.




*SU-35*
Pak-Russia relationship have not always been one to be proud of, however, lately, the two countries are warming up to each other. In November 2014, Moscow and Islamabad were able to sign a landmark defense operation agreement. This agreement will allow exchange of information on political and military issues, extend cooperation between the two for promoting international security, intensify counter-terrorism and arms-control activities, strengthen collaboration between Pakistan and Russia on various fields including military, education, medicine, and hydrography, and increase cooperation on peacekeeping operations. While no actual deal was signed at this moment for trade of military equipment, this deal would provide the platform for Pak-Russia relationship to grow and enhance.



* Mi-35M Attack Helicopter*
As far as the deal of fighter jets and helicopters goes, the Russian deputy Foreign Minister was noted to have said:
I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides.
He was referring to India and Pakistan. Military cooperation between Pakistan and Russia will not impact Moscow’s relationship with New Delhi. He also mentioned that Pak-Russia relationship is improving in other sectors such as energy. As far as India being jealous or concerned goes, India has frequently been involved in military purchases with Russia including 20 Mi-35s not so long ago. In comparison, four attack helicopters of the same kind, should not be an issue. However, it the deal has significance when it comes to creating ties with countries other than China. The deal involving Su-35s and Mi-35s is a major one, and hopefully just a stepping stone to greater deals between Islamabad and Moscow.

Click the links for more information on* Mi-35M Attack Helicopter *and *Su-35 Fighter Jet *directly from the manufacturer’s website.
We will keep you updated on the delivery of the jets and helicopters, meanwhile, tell us what you think about *Pak-Russia relationship*, and how it can improve. Do you think Pakistan should purchase more equipment from Russia? Do you think reverse-engineering is a good idea, in order to establish indigenous manufacturing plants?

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## waz

Thread officially closed. There has never been anything concrete about this sale. Now the Russians are busy with what's going on in Syria, which makes it even less likely. Russia has officially actually signed numerous more arms deals with India and the PAF is set to receive brand new F-16's.
The continuation of this thread is just a mockery in light of the above events.

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