# 11 Feb '13: Pakistan conducts test fires of two Hatf-IX Nasr BRBMs



## The Deterrent

Rawalpindi - February 11, 2013:

*Pakistan today conducted a successful test fire of Short Range Surface to Surface Missile Hatf IX (NASR). The test fire was conducted with successive launches of two missiles from a state of the art multi tube launcher. NASR, with a range of 60 km, and inflight maneuver capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy. This quick response system, which can fire a four Missile* Salvo* ensures deterrence against threats in view of evolving scenarios. Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems.*

The test was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Muhammad Irfan Burney, Commander Army Strategic Forces Command Lieutenant General Triq Nadeem Gilani, senior officers from the armed forces and scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.
Addressing the scientists, engineers and military officers of Strategic Organizations, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee congratulated them on displaying a high standard of* proficiency in handling and operating the state of the art weapon system. He said that Pakistan&#8217;s Armed Forces were fully capable of safeguarding Pakistan&#8217;s security against all kinds of aggression.
The successful test has also been appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.

Welcome to ISPR

*Photo:* _Courtesy @Windjammer_








*Video Grabs:*

Looks like there were four missiles in the launcher, but only two were fired.
















*Video:* _Courtesy @JonAsad_





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=572167639478610

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## IND151

is any new tech incorporated in tested NASR?

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## acetophenol

Congratulations!
Any pics? How many tubes are there in the launcher? Article says two!

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## A.Rafay

Awesome!!  Great News!

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## The Deterrent

acetophenol said:


> Congratulations!
> Any pics? How many tubes are there in the launcher? Article says two!



The article says two were used in the test fire. The launcher has 4 tubes, see pictures from previous test for more infromation.



IND151 said:


> is any new tech incorporated in tested NASR?



The official press release talks about an *in-flight maneuvering capability* which has enabled the system to *defeat all known tactical Missile defence systems.*

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## Gryphon

Rawalpindi: Pakistan on Monday conducted a successful test fire of Short Range Surface to Surface Missile Hatf IX (NASR), Inter Services Public Relation (ISPR).

The test fire was conducted with successive launches of two missiles from a state of the art multi tube launcher.

NASR, with a range of 60 km, and in flight maneuver capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy. This quick response system, which can fire a four Missile Salvo ensures deterrence against threats in view of evolving scenarios. Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems, the ISPR said in a statement.

The ISPR added that the test was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Muhammad Irfan Burney, Commander Army Strategic Forces Command Lieutenant General Triq Nadeem Gilani, senior officers from the armed forces and scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

Addressing the scientists, engineers and military officers of Strategic Organizations, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee congratulated them on displaying a high standard of proficiency in handling and operating the state of the art weapon system. He said that Pakistans Armed Forces were fully capable of safeguarding Pakistans security against all kinds of aggression.

The successful test has also been appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.

Pakistan successfully test fires short range Hatf IX missile: ISPR | The News Tribe

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## Norboo

I believe India's getting the Iron Dome system from Israel just to knock these out of the sky!

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## The Deterrent

Already posted.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Congrats......



dearone4u_22 said:


> 60 km
> 
> nuking self ........damn this Suicide bombing has found place in Pakistan Nuclear Doctrine also
> 
> 
> Mumbai to Virar is 60 km.And we got fast train for it which complete journey in 45 min



Ever heard of a tactical nuke with a small yield? D"OH.......

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## True pakistani 22

dearone4u_22 said:


> 60 km
> 
> nuking self ........damn this Suicide bombing has found place in Pakistan Nuclear Doctrine also
> 
> 
> Mumbai to Virar is 60 km.And we got fast Local train for it which complete journey in 45 min



Nasr Is biggest Threat for India 
Nasr Missile can take out indian troops on Battle field

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## chauvunist

Norboo said:


> I believe India's getting the Iron Dome system from Israel just to knock these out of the sky!



And this is not just a hand made rocket...

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## [--Leo--]

dearone4u_22 said:


> 60 km
> 
> nuking self ........damn this Suicide bombing has found place in Pakistan Nuclear Doctrine also
> 
> 
> Mumbai to Virar is 60 km.And we got fast Local train for it which complete journey in 45 min



Well if we lay down with bomb under tank to stop indian tanks in 1965 why not self nuke we can do it but you can't
this is short distance missile so its for closer target to assist the army in battlefield 
third thing is it have high speed so hard for missile to intercept 
and you are concern about nuke we can nuke every city of india 3500 KM is enough for you buddy?

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## dearone4u_22

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Congrats......
> 
> 
> 
> Ever heard of a tactical nuke with a small yield? D"OH.......



Ever heard of nuclear contamination of Soil and water or Nuclear Dust which is carried away by Wind to Far away places D'oh

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## A.Rafay

dearone4u_22 said:


> *60 km*
> 
> nuking self ........damn this Suicide bombing has found place in Pakistan Nuclear Doctrine also
> 
> 
> Mumbai to Virar is 60 km.And we got fast Local train for it which complete journey in 45 min



Lahore to amritsar is 50KM. dont troll! NASR is important missile for areas close to border.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

dearone4u_22 said:


> Ever heard of nuclear contamination of Soil and water or Nuclear Dust which is carried away by Wind to Far away places D'oh



Its for ur cold war strategy! soil,water contamination dont matter in this case.. n the nuclear yield would be small but appropriate enough to wipe ur entire division n still be safe enough for our troops sitting 60kms away.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Can anyone please tell me against which Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems was this missile tested? How do they know it can defeat them all?


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## dearone4u_22

True pakistani 22 said:


> Nasr Is biggest Threat for India
> Nasr Missile can take out indian troops on Battle field



Chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear training issues in India: A fresh perspective
Chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear training issues in India: A fresh perspective


Nasr missile will Also take out the remaining Defense line Standing Against Indian offensive......Which will open Flood gate for Then Next Wave of Offensive 
Also it will give a Go ahead to India to Go full Monty on Nuclear front..As his soldier were Attacked with Nuclear Weapon.....For Which there is a clause in Our Stated Nuclear Doctrine

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## Windjammer

Images from the previous tests.

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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Can anyone please tell me against which Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems was this missile tested? How do they know it can defeat them all?



Don't be that harsh. Of course it wasn't tested against any Tactical BMD, but the capability to maneuver unexpectedly can dodge the incoming missile. 
I dont think that all tactical BMDs were meant by this statement, because laser based tactical BMD can possibly counter unexpected trajectory changes.

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## Zarvan

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan Monday conducted a successful test fire of Short Range Surface to Surface Missile Hatf IX (NASR), ISPR press release said.

According to press release, the test fire was conducted with successive launches of two missiles from a state of the art multi tube launcher. NASR, with a range of 60 km, and in-flight maneuver capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy.

This quick response system, which can fire a four Missile Salvo ensures deterrence against threats in view of evolving scenarios. Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems, ISPR said.

The test was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Muhammad Irfan Burney, Commander Army Strategic Forces Command Lieutenant General Triq Nadeem Gilani, senior officers from the armed forces and scientists and engineers of strategic organizations, the press release added.

Addressing the scientists, engineers and military officers of Strategic Organizations, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee congratulated them on displaying a high standard of proficiency in handling and operating the state of the art weapon system. He said that Pakistan's Armed Forces were fully capable of safeguarding Pakistan's security against all kinds of aggression.

The successful test has also been appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.
*Basically they have tested how multi tube will work and they have achieved success in this great job by Pakistan Scientists*

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## Sugarcane

Why bhartiis are on fire

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## A.Rafay

dearone4u_22 said:


> Ever heard of nuclear contamination of Soil and water or Nuclear Dust which is carried away by Wind to Far away places D'oh



Did This troll got Banned just infront of me! Heellll Yeah!

Ontopic: NASR is a battle field range Missile, Its not a disadvantage that it has on 60Km range. It is a usefull missile for striking areas closer to border.

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## Malik Usman

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan conducted a successful test fire of Short Range to Surface Missile Hatf IX (NASR) on Monday, said a press release by Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

The test fire was conducted with successive launches of two missiles from a state of the art multi-tube launcher. NASR, with a range of 60km, and in-flight manoeuvre capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy, said the press release.

*NASR has also been specially designed to defeat all known Anti-Tactical Missile Defence Systems.*

Pakistan Successfully Test Fires Hatf IX Missile: ISPR | Columnpk.Com | Latest Pakistan News in Urdu, Breaking News, Urdu Columns, Health, Technology, Videos, Cricket, New Car Prices & Reviews

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## JonAsad

tbh i dont like the idea of Nasr to be used inside our borders-

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## ares

Threat posed by small battlefield Nukes mounted on tactical battlefield missile like Nasr has already been addressed by the addendum added to Indian nuclear doctrine in CCS meeting held in 2002. 

It will be suicidal for Pakistan to hope that, use battlefield Nukes on Indian division(even on Pakistani soil) will not invite a full scale nuclear retaliation.

So unless Pakistan is going to for full scale nuclear response, it can/will not deploy small battlefield nuclear weapons.

Which makes Nasr's utility in a limited conflict, such as envisioned in Cold start doctrine limited to using conventional explosives. In which area it more than ,matched by India's Prahaar missile , which has almost three times the range and two times the missiles mounted on a single vehicle.

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## Windjammer

For those questioning the 60 Km range of this weapon should keep in mind that some nuclear artillery has a range of mere 10 Km.

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## Zarvan

LoveIcon said:


> Why bhartiis are on fire


When ever Pakistan fires a missile these guys really get crazy and start talking complete crap to jealous of us

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## Malik Usman

Norboo said:


> I believe India's getting the Iron Dome system from Israel just to knock these out of the sky!



You didn't read this line kid.

Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems,

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## Safriz

This one can dodge ABM


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## genmirajborgza786

alhamdulillah good news 

pls post video of the test can't wait to see two missiles taking off

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ares said:


> Threat posed by small battlefield Nukes mounted on tactical battlefield missile like Nasr has already been addressed by the addendum added to Indian nuclear doctrine in CCS meeting held in 2002.
> 
> *It will be suicidal for Pakistan to hope that, use battlefield Nukes on Indian division(even on Pakistani soil) will not invite a full scale nuclear retaliation.*
> 
> So unless Pakistan is going to for full scale nuclear response, it can/will not deploy small battlefield nuclear weapons.
> 
> Which makes Nasr's utility in a limited conflict, such as envisioned in Cold start doctrine limited to using conventional explosives. In which area it more than ,matched by India's Prahaar missile , which has almost three times the range and two times the missiles mounted on a single vehicle.



Honey india would be foolish to mass retaliate (unless india has a death wish)if we wipe out ur divs on our soil.............what makes u think tht Pak wont retaliate?

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## RazorMC

JonAsad said:


> tbh i dont like the idea of Nasr to be used inside our borders-




The Nasr will probably be used with conventional warheads on a battle-field to deter large mechanized/tank or infantry formations. However, the nuclear capability grants us an additional option to keep Indian forces at bay.

Assuming that the Nasr will only be launched with a nuke is simply paranoia spread by media outlets.

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## ares

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Honey india would be foolish to mass retaliate (unless india has a death wish)if we wipe out ur divs on our soil.............what makes u think tht Pak wont retaliate?



Ohh!!..if we launch a full scale retaliation against Pakistan(in response to Pakistan launching a TNM), we fully expect Pakistan to launch a second strike, that is why our initial nuclear strike will be against your missile basses, launch sites and command centers...to severely limit your second strike capabilities.

And absence of SLBMs ..does not give Pakistan an assured second strike capability, in case its land based assets are compromised in Indian first strike.


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## farhan_9909

if the rumour of dead hand kind of system is true for pakistan as wel

so with the launch of Nasr on pakistan soil and the system detect Nuclear attack on pakistan soil.

the missile silos in pakistan will auto start firing nukes at india.

for more detail read about "dead hand" Nuclear control system

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## Tehmasib



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## The Deterrent

farhan_9909 said:


> if the rumour of dead hand kind of system is true for pakistan as wel
> 
> so with the launch of Nasr on pakistan soil and the system detect Nuclear attack on pakistan soil.
> 
> the missile silos in pakistan will auto start firing nukes at india.
> 
> for more detail read about "dead hand" Nuclear control system



That was a rumor about Soviet nuclear command and control system. There is absolutely nothing like this which exists for other nations.
Both Pakistani and Indian nuclear command and control systems require days for complete mobilization from peacetime storage status.

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## Shadow_Hunter

AhaseebA said:


> Don't be that harsh. Of course it wasn't tested against any Tactical BMD, but the capability to maneuver unexpectedly can dodge the incoming missile.
> I dont think that all tactical BMDs were meant by this statement, because laser based tactical BMD can possibly counter unexpected trajectory changes.



Obviously you know that. But I assure you, an year from now, you will see your moron compatriots jumping around claiming that Nasr cannot be intercepted by the most advanced SaM systems of US, India & Israel, just because their dear ISPR told them so.

Coming to topic. Can you tell what does pakistan hopes to achieve by this missile. I always had the impression that Nasr was to stop Indian troops from invading pakistan, but how?

60km is just shitty range. Most aircraft in the Indian can perform air interdiction very easily at that range(Even LCA, with only its current capabilities, without IOC). Even Rudra could take it for a ride. So most probably, the missile won't be fired at all.

Even if it is fired, maneuverability is not a big thing. All SAMS are designed to counter aircraft and cruise missiles, which are much more maneuverable than Nasr will ever be. The advantage with ballistic missile comes with its speed. But since the range of the missile is too low, I doubt it will have a speed to challenge even the less advanced SAM systems.

Even if the missile hits its target, it will be considered as a nuclear attack on India and we will take appropriate measures to respond(You know what I mean). So, my question. What does this missile give pakistan that it did not already posses?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ares said:


> Ohh!!..if we launch a full scale retaliation against Pakistan(in response to Pakistan launching a TNM), we fully expect Pakistan to launch a second strike, that is why our initial nuclear strike will be against your missile basses, launch sites and command centers...to severely limit your second strike capabilities.
> 
> And absence of SLBMs ..does not give Pakistan an assured second strike capability, in case its land based assets are compromised in Indian first strike.



So for a few thousand men india will risk to get nuked? think abbt ur populace cities...........millions would die..........as for second strike capability...........did u forget raad,babur missiles and the new vertical launched version of babur which will soon be arming PAK NAVY? Besides how will u identify all our launch sites,bases and command centers without getting nuked in a couple of seconds!

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## KRAIT

*Any tactical Nuke usage will escalate to full fledged nuclear war. And even if India stops its advance if Pakistan uses Nasr', entire world will condemn Pakistan, impose sanctions and will raise issue of taking or limiting Pakistan's nuclear arsenal along with IAEA and UN observer to check the security of Pakistani nukes.

Think about why India wants to push Pakistan to use Nukes. You can kill few millions of Indians, but it will be disastrous for Pakistan on whole.*

 I am Evil Yindoo Baniya.

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## Rocky25

[--Leo--];3906319 said:


> Well if we lay down with bomb under tank to stop indian tanks in 1965 why not self nuke we can do it but you can't
> this is short distance missile so its for closer target to assist the army in battlefield
> third thing is it have high speed so hard for missile to intercept
> and you are concern about nuke we can nuke every city of india 3500 KM is enough for you buddy?



So what is your answer for taking out these missile launchers with Supersonic Brahmos? Tracking out these launchers wont be a big deal with Awacs as they are just 60 KM away from our access! Need not say about hypersonic cruise missile under development!


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## Windjammer

If Pakistan ever launches it's nukes, it certainly will not be according to Indian terms or wishes, rather when it's the last resort to preserve it's sovereignty. Considering the Indian member's reaction even after a test, one can almost conclude that Pakistan may never need to press the red button in anger. 

@ Topic, i should soon have pictures of today's test.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rocky25 said:


> So what is your answer for taking out these missile launchers with Supersonic Brahmos? Tracking out these launchers wont be a big deal with Awacs as they are just 60 KM away from our access! Need not say about hypersonic cruise missile under development!



Ever heard of CM400AKG?

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## Splurgenxs

Strategic intuition is at an all time low in Pakistan.

60km with nuclear warhead...lo kar lo baat.


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## Rocky25

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Honey india would be foolish to mass retaliate (unless india has a death wish)if we wipe out ur divs on our soil.............what makes u think tht Pak wont retaliate?



The credible second strike capability of India is close to reality with SSBN's.. Where as it is not possible with Pakistan's reach within this decade!


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## Rocky25

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ever heard of CM400AKG?



Prove with trial test and then come back with ACC killer missile!


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## Lionhood

The 60 km's range should also be decreased to lower ranges in upcoming missiles because tactical missiles are such which can destroy 100's of Indian Tanks in an attack. The so called Indian Cold Start Doctrine is raped by this missile.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rocky25 said:


> The credible second strike capability of India is close to reality with SSBN's.. Where as it is not possible with Pakistan's reach within this decade!



Naval version already under development.........SSBN also under development.........................ur crystal ball sucks:

VLCM babur:

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## chauvunist

ares said:


> Threat posed by small battlefield Nukes mounted on tactical battlefield missile like Nasr has already been addressed by the addendum added to Indian nuclear doctrine in CCS meeting held in 2002.
> 
> It will be suicidal for Pakistan to hope that, use battlefield Nukes on Indian division(even on Pakistani soil) will not invite a full scale nuclear retaliation.
> 
> So unless Pakistan is going to for full scale nuclear response, it can/will not deploy small battlefield nuclear weapons.
> 
> Which makes Nasr's utility in a limited conflict, such as envisioned in Cold start doctrine limited to using conventional explosives. In which area it more than ,matched by India's Prahaar missile , which has almost three times the range and two times the missiles mounted on a single vehicle.




Know your limits stay within your border or you will smell like a barbecue...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rocky25 said:


> Prove with trial test and then come back with ACC killer missile!



dumbo its already integrated n shown in zuhai last year!

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## Albatross

The best thing I learnt about this missile is its inflight maneuverability capacity which makes it extremely hard for any missile defence system to detroy it . NASR, with a range of 60 km, and in-flight maneuver capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy.

This quick response system, which can fire a four Missile Salvo ensures deterrence against threats in view of evolving scenarios. Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat* all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems*, ISPR said.

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## Rocky25

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> dumbo its already integrated n shown in zuhai last year!



Stupo.... There were no trails info present to justify the specs of speed! 

More over having this missile will NOT deter India from using Brahmos on Nasr's Launcher... This Chinese fancy weapon will not block Brahmos!



Albatross said:


> The best thing I learnt about this missile is its inflight maneuverability capacity which makes it extremely hard for any missile defence system to detroy it . NASR, with a range of 60 km, and in-flight maneuver capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy.
> 
> This quick response system, which can fire a four Missile Salvo ensures deterrence against threats in view of evolving scenarios. Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat* all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems*, ISPR said.



Was that tested against Patriotic ABM system or Iron Dome?


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## ares

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> So for a few thousand men india will risk to get nuked? think abbt ur populace cities...........millions would die..........as for second strike capability...........did u forget raad,babur missiles and the new vertical launched version of babur which will soon be arming PAK NAVY? Besides how will u identify all our launch sites,bases and command centers without getting nuked in a couple of seconds!



It is not a question of number of lives lost...*It is a question of survival..Pakistan resorting to use of tactical nuclear weapons means Pakistan has reached its nuclear threshold and has crossed Indian nuclear threshold.Any retaliation from here on will be an escalatory one ..ending up in full scale nuclear war*

Indian priories at this time to would be minimize Indian losses in the impending nuclear war by wiping out Pakistan launch capabilities.
By preempting Pakistani full scale nuclear attack..India can significantly minimise the losses on Indian side.

It is assured that India will not be able to hit all the Pakistani nuke bases..but can take out most of them in the preemptive nuclear strikes.
It is safe assumption.. preemptive strikes in addition to India missile defence systems will be able to manage most of Pakistani launches, if not all.

Damage to India..in this scenario will considerably less than, had Pakistan been allowed to launch it's full arsenal.


Raad is an air launched weapon...Pakistan does not have long endurance, long range bomber...which can stay in the air round the clock to serve as reliable second strike weapon.

Babur is a LACM, which has not been configured for sub surface launch..even if VL version of Babur if available in future..Pakistan submarines..do not have vertical launch capabilities.


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## Rocky25

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Naval version already under development.........SSBN also under development.........................ur crystal ball sucks:
> 
> VLCM babur:



The missile does not seem to come from under water platform!

Ah Pakistani SSBN under day dreams I hope!


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## Hyperion

Iron dome if for ballistic missiles.



Norboo said:


> I believe India's getting the Iron Dome system from Israel just to knock these out of the sky!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rocky25 said:


> Stupo.... There were no trails info present to justify the specs of speed!
> 
> More over having this missile will NOT deter India from using Brahmos on Nasr's Launcher... This Chinese fancy weapon will not block Brahmos!
> 
> 
> Was that tested against Patriotic ABM system or Iron Dome?




Bachay teri kuch nahin ho sakta.........go watch ur cartoons.

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## Green Angel

Excellent News:
These tests will make India to sit silent,Owsum News.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## Albatross

Rocky25 said:


> Was that tested against Patriotic ABM system or Iron Dome?



There is no way to test such things through out world except during wars and that was the way russia and US both built missile and anti-missile system throughout cold war. But yes if you know the spec of a certain anti missile system then you can simulate a scenario and test how the missille will perform againt thats system and I guess ISPR was referring to such stimulations but yes indeed inflight maneuverability does support their claims.


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## Rocky25

Hyperion said:


> Iron dome if for ballistic missiles.



Oh Hamas have Ballistic missiles?


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## Hyperion

Non-variable ballistic trajectory. Don't be a tool.



Rocky25 said:


> Oh Hamas have Ballistic missiles?

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## jnd3x0

very cost effective measure to all goodies India is buying, they will be sitting ducks when these hit them taking them all out with colossal damage. It put PAK at major advantage in Kashmir valley. once the area hit, due to very difficult landscape regarding land movements it will become disasters for indian troops to take that area back or even get back to that area, no we will not nuke you we might use other war heads so on international stage India will have not a single justification to nuke us or claim that PAK nuked india. or even nuke option is used then it will made sure that all potential war heads pointing at us are taken out after the first launch, it will be stupid to wait and get hit in return. It will be blood bath I hope this never happens. Anyways congrats PAK FAUJ

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## KRAIT

When Iran is suspected of making Nuclear bomb, US, EU impose sanctions ?
When North Korea test nuclear bomb, sanctions are increased ?

Now imagine what will world do if Pakistan uses nukes on India ?


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## kurup

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Naval version already under development.........SSBN also under development.........................ur crystal ball sucks:
> 
> VLCM babur:



Not even close .


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## Rocky25

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Bachay teri kuch nahin ho sakta.........go watch ur cartoons.



 madrasah educated self proclaimed genius... If you cannot refute the claims then you lost it!


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## Windjammer

kurup said:


> Not even close .



Keep your eyes and ears open.

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## Kompromat

@AhaseebA Is it possible to deploy thermobaric warhead instead of a TN on this delivery system?

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## A.Rafay

Splurgenxs said:


> Strategic intuition is at an all time low in Pakistan.
> 
> *60km with nuclear warhead...lo kar lo baat.*



Haan 60km with Nuclear warhead!...lo hogayi baat...Any problem??

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## Rocky25

Green Angel said:


> Excellent News:
> These tests will make India to sit silent,Owsum News.
> 
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD



Is it so? Musharraf thought India will NOT strike back in Kargil Conflict because Pakistan has nukes.... But India did hit back! Now I understand when I learn that Pakistani Army doing the same mistake again and again!



Windjammer said:


> Keep your eyes and ears open.



Are you blind? Showing a road mobile launcher!


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## Rocky25

jnd3x0 said:


> very cost effective measure to all goodies India is buying, they will be sitting ducks when these hit them taking them all out with colossal damage. It put PAK at major advantage in Kashmir valley. once the area hit, due to very difficult landscape regarding land movements it will become disasters for indian troops to take that area back or even get back to that area, no we will not nuke you we might use other war heads so on international stage India will have not a single justification to nuke us or claim that PAK nuked india. or even nuke option is used then it will made sure that all potential war heads pointing at us are taken out after the first launch, it will be stupid to wait and get hit in return. It will be blood bath I hope this never happens. Anyways congrats PAK FAUJ



Do you know anything about nuclear radiations? If Hatf Nasr alone can defeat India... then why crying all the time to US and UN to mediate in Kashmir talks!

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## GoodBoy

chauvunist said:


> Know your limits stay within your border or you will smell like a barbecue...



*This advice suits Pakistan more.* 

India usually stays in its borders but Pakistan seems going out stray each day and then crying India opened fire.

On your western borders Afgans/US/NATO cross your border often.


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## Contrarian

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ever heard of CM400AKG?



its a terminal stage supersonic rocket. not a CM.

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## Windjammer

Rocky25 said:


> !
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind? Showing a road mobile launcher!



Here, see if this pokes your eyes.

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## GoodBoy

Rocky25 said:


> Do you know anything about nuclear radiations? If Hatf Nasr alone can defeat India... then why crying all the time to US and UN to mediate in Kashmir talks!



They think that nuke blackmail would work and foreign intervention would work but it FAILS each time as UN/US says its a "Bilateral thing between India-Pak".


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## kurup

Windjammer said:


> Keep your eyes and ears open.



You are comparing a TEL to a SLBM.
The picture by Pakistani Nationalist atleast had some similarity .



Windjammer said:


> Here, see if this pokes your eyes.



Again a road mobile TEL nothing else.


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## Norboo

Green Angel said:


> Excellent News:
> *These tests will make India to sit silent*, *Owsum* News.


Hmmm...Silent? The Indians must be crapping in their pants!!








And it's 'awesome' not 'Owsum'. You guys can't even spell right and you're firing off missiles! Amazing!  


AhaseebA said:


> *Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems.*


Huh? Has it been tested against all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems? Why do these guys keep shooting from the hip?


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## Rocky25

Windjammer said:


> Here, see if this pokes your eyes.



You do NOT have reasoning skill... too bad cannot pass in Competitive exams... Show a picture in which the Babur missile comes out of the under water platform!


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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Obviously you know that. But I assure you, an year from now, you will see your moron compatriots jumping around claiming that Nasr cannot be intercepted by the most advanced SaM systems of US, India & Israel, just because their dear ISPR told them so.
> 
> Coming to topic. Can you tell what does pakistan hopes to achieve by this missile. I always had the impression that Nasr was to stop Indian troops from invading pakistan, but how?
> 
> 60km is just shitty range. Most aircraft in the Indian can perform air interdiction very easily at that range(Even LCA, with only its current capabilities, without IOC). Even Rudra could take it for a ride. So most probably, the missile won't be fired at all.
> 
> Even if it is fired, maneuverability is not a big thing. All SAMS are designed to counter aircraft and cruise missiles, which are much more maneuverable than Nasr will ever be. The advantage with ballistic missile comes with its speed. But since the range of the missile is too low, I doubt it will have a speed to challenge even the less advanced SAM systems.
> 
> Even if the missile hits its target, it will be considered as a nuclear attack on India and we will take appropriate measures to respond(You know what I mean). So, my question. What does this missile give pakistan that it did not already posses?



Well morons are on both sides of the border, no? 

What I conclude from this statement is that Nasr is prone to interception by any tactical ABM or SAM which India currently possesses or is deploying.

No, it is _designed_ to be of just 60 km range. Pakistan already has nuclear delivery systems that strike up to 300 kms, which can be modified for tactical role.
Maneuverability PLUS _ballistic _speed; that is something SAMs cannot counter. We are talking about an estimated Mach 3-5 (a rough guess).

The missile provides Pakistan the capability of rapid and _under-the-cover_ deployment in the battlefield. So it plugs in the loop holes create by a possible rapid foreign invasion (CSD). See, larger nuclear weapons and their delivery systems take longer time to mobilize, and are more prone to detection by intelligence sources. Nasr removes this handicap, _AT _the battlefield.

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## Windjammer

Rocky25 said:


> You do NOT have reasoning skill... too bad cannot pass in Competitive exams... Show a picture in which the Babur missile comes out of the under water platform!



Albeit, the Indian sub launched system has been in the news for sometimes, but it was just the other week the Indian members resorted to their chest thumping. Likewise until you people see Babur breaking out of sea surface, the banter will continue.
As for your competitive thing, remember your airforce is just working on the ALCM, while R'had is very much operational with PAF.

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## The Deterrent

ares said:


> Babur is a LACM, which has not been configured for sub surface launch..even if VL version of Babur if available in future..Pakistan submarines..do not have vertical launch capabilities.



Pakistan is developing Babur SLCM to be launched via the 533mm torpedo tubes of submarines.



Aeronaut said:


> @AhaseebA Is it possible to deploy thermobaric warhead instead of a TN on this delivery system?



Of course it is possible, there is no technical hurdle in the way.



Norboo said:


> Huh? Has it been tested against all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems? Why do these guys keep shooting from the hip?



It has been *designed*. Not *proved*.

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## 474474

KRAIT said:


> *Any tactical Nuke usage will escalate to full fledged nuclear war. And even if India stops its advance if Pakistan uses Nasr', entire world will condemn Pakistan, impose sanctions and will raise issue of taking or limiting Pakistan's nuclear arsenal along with IAEA and UN observer to check the security of Pakistani nukes.
> 
> Think about why India wants to push Pakistan to use Nukes. You can kill few millions of Indians, but it will be disastrous for Pakistan on whole.*
> 
> I am Evil Yindoo Baniya.



Spoken like a true Indian!
Kill a few million Indians, no big deal as long as Pakistan loses right? And uncle Sam(Indian definition of whole world) pats you on the back?


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## 474474

[Z]eEshAn;3906970 said:


> Why d range is only 60 km???
> 
> Is pakistan gning to Use these missslies on their ppls in balochistan????



Makes too much sense.
I'm sure zardari and kayani both Baluch ethnically would approve of that


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## Rocky25

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the Indian sub launched system has been in the news for sometimes, but it was just the other week the Indian members resorted to their chest thumping. Likewise until you people see Babur breaking out of sea surface, the banter will continue.
> As for your competitive thing, remember your airforce is just working on the ALCM, while R'had is very much operational with PAF.



Ha ha ha... We did that, So you did that... We will do this and you will also do this... So as of now there is NO SLBM with Pakistan!

It is not the competitive thing of the weapons we posses! Read again!



474474 said:


> Spoken like a true Indian!
> Kill a few million Indians, no big deal as long as Pakistan loses right? And uncle Sam(Indian definition of whole world) pats you on the back?



Like it or not, India won't sit back if Nuke is used against its forces....!


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## KRAIT

474474 said:


> Spoken like a true Indian!
> Kill a few million Indians, no big deal as long as Pakistan loses right? And uncle Sam(Indian definition of whole world) pats you on the back?


See you have no NFU policy. You will be the one who will use Nukes first.Indians are going o die in millions anyway.

I a mtelling you that even if you fire nukes on us and kill millions of Indians BUT we don't fire back with nukes, your country will go down the drain.
*
So either you use nukes or not, your country will loose the most.*

Win Win for India.


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## lightoftruth

congrats, seems like user trials pinched with lil overstatements from ISPR .pakistans nuclear threashold has been reduced with its induction although it works fine for strategy makers of both sides . 

it even helps the arguement of talibanization of comparatively lower rank officers handling radioactive materials producing a dirty bomb.


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## Shadow_Hunter

AhaseebA said:


> Well morons are on both sides of the border, no?
> 
> What I conclude from this statement is that Nasr is prone to interception by any tactical ABM or SAM which India currently possesses or is deploying.
> 
> No, it is _designed_ to be of just 60 km range. Pakistan already has nuclear delivery systems that strike up to 300 kms, which can be modified for tactical role.
> Maneuverability PLUS _ballistic _speed; that is something SAMs cannot counter. We are talking about an estimated Mach 3-5 (a rough guess).
> 
> The missile provides Pakistan the capability of rapid and _under-the-cover_ deployment in the battlefield. So it plugs in the loop holes create by a possible rapid foreign invasion (CSD). See, larger nuclear weapons and their delivery systems take longer time to mobilize, and are more prone to detection by intelligence sources. Nasr removes this handicap, _AT _the battlefield.



Why do your missiles need to be mobilized, don't you have silos?


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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Why do your missiles need to be mobilized, don't you have silos?



When and who said that?? 

All land-based nuclear delivery systems of Pakistan are Road-mobile, designed to be launched via TELs.


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## Safriz

I dont see this news on any channel...


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## Shadow_Hunter

AhaseebA said:


> When and who said that??
> 
> All land-based nuclear delivery systems of Pakistan are Road-mobile, designed to be launched via TELs.



Then build silos. Any of your medium range missile has a better chance of hitting India than this shitty Nasr ever will. I doubt with such a low range it will ever reach Mach 3-5.


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## Rocky25

KRAIT said:


> See you have no NFU policy. You will be the one who will use Nukes first.Indians are going o die in millions anyway.
> 
> I a mtelling you that even if you fire nukes on us and kill millions of Indians BUT we don't fire back with nukes, your country will go down the drain.
> *
> So either you use nukes or not, your country will loose the most.*
> 
> Win Win for India.



That does not make India a win-win position unless all nukes are grabbed and break Pakistan even more pieces!


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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Then build silos. Any of your medium range missile has a better chance of hitting India than this shitty Nasr ever will. I doubt with such a low range it will ever reach Mach 3-5.



If, by silos, you mean hardened storage facilities, then Pakistan does have them. But they cannot launch missiles from those facilities.
I think you are being very biased. Pakistan already has loads (_relatively_) of SRBMs and MRBMs for strategic purposes.

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## Emmie

Safriz said:


> I dont see this news on any channel...



I saw the news on Geo and ARY.... It's in.


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## Shadow_Hunter

AhaseebA said:


> If, by silos, you mean hardened storage facilities, then Pakistan does have them. But they cannot launch missiles from those facilities.
> I think you are being very biased. Pakistan already has loads (_relatively_) of SRBMs and MRBMs for strategic purposes.



I am not being biased. I am just trying to understand the use of a nuke capable missile for a tactical purpose. You said that Nasr allows rapid mobilization, a nuke missile silo(which allows you to launch directly) will be much more beneficial in this regard as Nasr will always have higher chances of interception than medium range missile. If there is any advantage of Nasr, please enlighten me.


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## Emmie

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Then build silos. Any of your medium range missile has a better chance of hitting India than this shitty Nasr ever will. I doubt with such a low range it will ever reach Mach 3-5.



You do realize that MRBM can hit India but you don't realize the purpose of NASR, irony! Say hello to Nasr, a tactical nuke!

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## Shadow_Hunter

Emmie said:


> You do realize that MRBM can hit India but you don't realize the purpose of NASR, irony! Say hello to Nasr, a tactical nuke!



Reply to post #37 of this thread


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## Rocky25

Emmie said:


> You do realize that MRBM can hit India but you don't realize the purpose of NASR, irony! Say hello to Nasr, a tactical nuke!



A nuke is a nuke.... India responds with the second strike which will be massive and cause unacceptable damage!


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## Emmie

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am not being biased. I am just trying to understand the use of a nuke capable missile for a tactical purpose. You said that Nasr allows rapid mobilization, a nuke missile silo(which allows you to launch directly) will be much more beneficial in this regard as Nasr will always have higher chances of interception than medium range missile. If there is any advantage of Nasr, please enlighten me.



Nasr is specifically designed for cold start doctrine of India.

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## somebozo

All hints indicate that this is intended as a "rain of fire" type defense missile which will launch tens of tactical missiles simultaneous assuming that some of them will miss the anti-missile defense and will reach their target.


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## The Deterrent

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am not being biased. I am just trying to understand the use of a nuke capable missile for a tactical purpose. You said that Nasr allows rapid mobilization, a nuke missile silo(which allows you to launch directly) will be much more beneficial in this regard as Nasr will always have higher chances of interception than medium range missile. If there is any advantage of Nasr, please enlighten me.



Nasr has its own role. MRBMs have their own.

If Pakistan builds silos, they would have to be VERY hardened against strikes and thus, VERY detectable by satellites. It would be simply announcing to the whole world the locations of our nuclear weapons.

I already told you the purpose of Nasr. Now it depends on you; whether you want to see as an advantage or disadvantage of Pakistan.

I'll quote here the very first ISPR release about this weapon:


> The missile has been developed to *add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8216;s Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges.* NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy, *shoot and scoot attributes.* This *quick response system* addresses the need to deter *evolving threats*.

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## jnd3x0

Rocky25 said:


> Do you know anything about nuclear radiations? If Hatf Nasr alone can defeat India... then why crying all the time to US and UN to mediate in Kashmir talks!



I just pictured the extreme case, nevermind and in civilized world if issues can resolve on table then why go for Blood shed.


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## notorious_eagle

ares said:


> Ohh!!..if we launch a full scale retaliation against Pakistan(in response to Pakistan launching a TNM), we fully expect Pakistan to launch a second strike, that is why our initial nuclear strike will be against your missile basses, launch sites and command centers...to severely limit your second strike capabilities.
> 
> And absence of SLBMs ..does not give Pakistan an assured second strike capability, in case its land based assets are compromised in Indian first strike.



It works like this, as soon as the order goes out to fire a tactical nuke, expect the Command and Control Centre to issue the order to start assembling our strategic nukes. If we see the Indians mating their strategic nukes, expect the PA planners to have their fingers on the nuke triggers. If we see Indian nukes on our radar screens, expect the PA to launch our nukes immediately. Thus, its your call, do you want to loose an entire division or your entire country as PA can now mount more than one hundred nukes.

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## Rocky25

Emmie said:


> Nasr is specifically designed for cold start doctrine of India.



Have you read No First use doctrine of India?


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## ares

AhaseebA said:


> Pakistan is developing Babur SLCM to be launched via the 533mm torpedo tubes of submarines.



Babur being by the fact that it is a cruise missile, will always be limited by its range, dimensions and size of warhead it can carry.
At present it can carry 300 Kg Warhead ..yield of such a warhead will only be slight better than a Tactical nuclear weapons... giving only few kilotons..unsuitable for large cities.


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## Emmie

Rocky25 said:


> Have you read No First use doctrine of India?



Similarly Pakistan is not bound to any no first use policy. Put cold start in cold and avoid flying nukes.

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## notorious_eagle

Rocky25 said:


> Have you read No First use doctrine of India?



Read my previous post. It is upto India whether she wants to loose a division or an entire country. If the Indians would want to escalate the conflict with a strategic strike, i am sure PA will happily oblige by unloading all of her strategic arsenal on India. Result: Complete annihilation of South Asia, but don't worry, you will be safe in San Jose.

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## Rocky25

somebozo said:


> All hints indicate that this is intended as a "rain of fire" type defense missile which will launch tens of tactical missiles simultaneous assuming that some of them will miss the anti-missile defense and will reach their target.



So what stops India to find and destroy the 'rain of fire' type missiles's launcher with its cruise missiles before it launches the first drop!



notorious_eagle said:


> Read my previous post. It is upto India whether she wants to loose a division or an entire country. If the Indians would want to escalate the conflict with a strategic strike, i am sure PA will happily oblige by unloading all of her strategic arsenal on India. Result: Complete annihilation of South Asia, but don't worry, you will be safe in San Jose.



 What makes you think that you will be the first to release the strategic nukes! Why do you think that we will give you time till you explode all nukes... So what are our ABM's are for? And what makes you think that the Americans and Russian will be silent to your trigger happy action?


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## graphican

KRAIT said:


> *Any tactical Nuke usage will escalate to full fledged nuclear war.*


*

Whole point of using Nasr would be to nullify armored and mechanized divisions that must have been gathered somewhere near Pakistan border. Looking at Nasr's range, 60KM tells us the story that when Nasr would be used, Indian mechanized decisions would be fairly close to Pakistan border. Do you think that will be happening at the time of peace? I think not. If your concern is firing a Nuke would trigger war then bringing mechanized divisions to border would probably not?*

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## The Deterrent

ares said:


> Babur being by the fact that it is a cruise missile, will always be limited by its range, dimensions and size of warhead it can carry.
> At present it can carry 300 Kg Warhead ..yield of such a warhead will only be slight better than a Tactical nuclear weapons... giving only few kilotons..unsuitable for large cities.



Yes, that is why I always refer to it by _limited_ second-strike capability. Moreover the chances of its interception are probably higher than BMs.
I don't think it would matter if it destroys half a city or full.

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## notorious_eagle

Rocky25 said:


> So what stops India to find and destroy the 'rain of fire' type missiles's launcher with its cruise missiles before it launches the first drop!



Nothing stops India from doing that. But its a shoot and scoot type strategy. The vehicle will launch its load, and than scoot from the area of action. IA would first have to find the vehicle, keep a lock on it and than mobilize a response. It is definitely possible to take out this vehicle, but i would argue that the advantage is on the side of the Nasr due to its mobility and fast reaction time. NATO had a hard time detecting and engaging Iraqi Scud Missile launchers during Desert Storm, and IA does not even come close to the level of fire power, sophistication and the level of reccon level that NATO possessed.

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## Cheetah786

KRAIT said:


> See you have no NFU policy. You will be the one who will use Nukes first.Indians are going o die in millions anyway.
> 
> I a mtelling you that even if you fire nukes on us and kill millions of Indians BUT we don't fire back with nukes, your country will go down the drain.
> *
> So either you use nukes or not, your country will loose the most.*
> 
> Win Win for India.




I was reading posts on Indian defense forum where they claim if Pakistan's nukes were to fall on India people can simply run under ground to the subways and nothing will happen you are here claiming few million dead which one is it .

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## ares

notorious_eagle said:


> It works like this, as soon as the order goes out to fire a tactical nuke, expect the Command and Control Centre to issue the order to start assembling our strategic nukes. If we see the Indians mating their strategic nukes, expect the PA planners to have their fingers on the nuke triggers. If we see Indian nukes on our radar screens, expect the PA to launch our nukes immediately. Thus, its your call, do you want to loose an entire division or your entire country as PA can now mount more than one hundred nukes.



But the thing is..in very new future a sizable portion of Indian warheads will be on SLBMs..already assembled and ready to fire at moments notice. 

SLBMs launched off the coast of Pakistan..will have two to five minutes fly time to their targets.You will not see the Indian response coming until it has already hit its intended target.

So question is. can you risk loosing your entire nuclear strike capability..even before you have exhausted your conventional response capability...just so that you can fire a small nuclear warning shot.

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## JonAsad

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=572167639478610

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## Windjammer

*
Here you go guys, first image of today's test of NASR Missiles.*

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## Rocky25

Emmie said:


> Similarly Pakistan is not bound to any no first use policy. Put cold start in cold and avoid flying nukes.



Pakistan does not have any no-first use policy! So what will you do if the Cold start actually worked and Indian army is inside 30 KM within the time Pakistan could stop inside Pakistani heavily populated territory? Still the so called 'Tactical' nukes would be used?


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## The Deterrent

JonAsad said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=572167639478610


*Video Grabs:*
Looks like there were four missiles in the launcher, but only two were fired.

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## Armstrong

Rocky25 said:


> So what stops India to find and destroy the 'rain of fire' type missiles's launcher with its cruise missiles before it launches the first drop!



Nothing does; thats what a bloody deterrence is for ! 

You guys still don't get it do you ? Pakistan will never take out Mumbai nor will India take out Lahore for the probable response to any of that is more devastating than any of us can care to imagine. For every Mumbai that burns dozens of our cities will burn & for every Lahore that burns dozens of your cities will burn; so the use of the Strategic Nuke is pretty much out of the question but it serves a deterrent which is that our city centers are safe just as your city centers are safe from any Nuclear Strike. 

But when it comes to the Tactical Nukes, the deterrent has just been devolved to a whole different level. It is ludicrous to assume that Pakistan lobbing a tactical nuke against an advancing Indian Armour Column is going to invite a disproportionate response from the Indian side in taking out Lahore & vice versa were the Indians doing that again. It is even more moronic to assume that somehow India would take out our launch sites, our mobile launchers, our air bases with their nuclear armed aircrafts, our surface ships armed with Baburs & our future prospected submarines armed with Baburs, all in a preemptive strike without Pakistan mustering even a half arsed response. One nuke is all that it takes to kill millions of Indians & one nuke is one too many. Even the United States doesn't know where all our Nuclear Facilities are never mind our much more mobile assets & we're assuming that India, which is No United States, has the capability of taking out Pakistan's Second Strike without us even catching a whiff of it. 
What is more surprising is the assumption as if Pakistan would lob our tactical nukes onto Indian Divisions without having even a single Strategic Nuke armed & ready for firing just in case. 

So my friend with the advent of the Tactical Nuke in the Indo-Pak theater the time for wars is gone; the best we can hope for is a protracted stand-off like the '01s or a sorry excuse for a border skirmish. Our fights are going to be proxy fights from henceforth, media wars & economic leveraging....nothing militarily in the future. 
@Hyperion @notorious_eagle

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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> *
> Here you go guys, first image of today's test of NASR Missiles.*



The best EVER photo of Nasr. Hats off to the photographer, the editor 
...and of course the uploader.

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## Rocky25

graphican said:


> Whole point of using Nasr would be to nullify armored and mechanized divisions that must have been gathered somewhere near Pakistan border. Looking at Nasr's range, 60KM tells us the story that when Nasr would be used, Indian mechanized decisions would be fairly close to Pakistan border. Do you think that will be happening at the time of peace? I think not. If your concern is firing a Nuke would trigger war then bringing mechanized divisions to border would probably not?



So you mean to say that the Nasr will nullify the Indian mechanized division... but not the Pakistani mechanized division facing the Indian one!

Cold start is rapid thrust! So the aim (Read again, it is just the 'aim' not capability) is Indian tanks will first come into the contact of the Pakistani Tanks ASAP! so in this instance the Nasr will be fired?

What if India opens a front in heavily populated areas! Will a Nasr be fired on that instance as well?


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## KRAIT

Cheetah786 said:


> I was reading posts on Indian defense forum where they claim if Pakistan's nukes were to fall on India people can simply run under ground to the subways and nothing will happen you are here claiming few million dead which one is it .


You pick. What seems rational to you. An average Joe on IDF or me ?

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## IamINDIA

i agree the missile has been designed to try and avoid amd systems, but one can clearly tell there is a lot of baseless hype.....no way any country can claim that a missile has been designed to defeat all known amd systems. especially Pakistan because it doesn't have any experience with proven amd shield.


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## Manticore

Contrarian said:


> its a terminal stage supersonic rocket. not a CM.


Looks like a quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html



ANTIBODY said:


> _________________________*MISSILE*
> A missile is a* guided weapon having the ability to control its trajectory. *It may or may not be propelled by a rocket.
> Many (but not all) guided missiles use rockets as their principal source of propulsion eg sidewinder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________*BASED ON TRAJECTORY *
> 
> * A *quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)* is a category of missile that has a low trajectory and/or is largely ballistic but can perform maneuvers in flight or make unexpected changes in direction and range.
> 
> At a lower trajectory than a ballistic missile, a quasi ballistic missile can maintain higher speed, thus allowing its target less time to react to the attack, at the cost of reduced range.
> 
> * A *ballistic missile* is a missile that follows a sub-orbital ballistic flightpath with the objective of delivering one or more warheads to a predetermined target.
> 
> * *cruise missilies* are terrain hugging missiles which are self-navigating, and can fly on a non-ballistic, extremely low altitude trajectory
> 
> 
> _______________________*BASED ON RANGE *
> 
> *tactical ballistic missile : range is less than 300 kilometres
> *(BRBM): Range less than 200 km
> *(TBM): Range between 300 km and 3500 km
> *(SRBM): Range 1000 km or less
> *(MRBM): Range between 1000 km and 3500 km
> *(IRBM) or long-range ballistic missile (LRBM): Range between 3500 km and 5500 km
> *(ICBM): Range greater than 5500 km
> *(SLBM): Launched from ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), all current designs have intercontinental range.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *rockets*
> 
> Once thrown, there is no further correction for the trajectory of that rocket
> 
> The term "rocket" has been used ever since the Chinese first built them with black powder 500 years (?) ago even though they relied on the oxygen in the air to burn. In modern day dialogues, the use of the word "rocket" implies that a liquid fueled engine has it's own oxidizer on board, typically LOX. But not always.
> 
> Solid fueled boosters are said to use a propellent that contains it's own oxidizer so the inconsistency spreads the confusion. *They too are rockets but we call them "boosters". *Why? I haven't a clue!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *projectile, bullet*
> Cannon shells are referred to as "projectiles" or "shells" when over a certain diameter and bullets when smaller.
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/99968-medium-range-ballistic-missiles.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/99878-standoff-missiles.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/103666-guided-missiles-working.html
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistani Quasi ballistic missiles and comparison with their contemporaries
> _________________________________________________________________*
> 
> 
> *Hatf IX (NASR)* - pakistan
> 
> Operationalrange range of 60 +km, carries tactical plotonium based nuclear warheads of appropriate yield
> *
> Guidancesystem INS , GPS and electro optical guidance seeker for terminal giudance -*high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes.
> 
> Platform--SINGLE TEL--2 box tubes launcher/ vehicle
> 
> Manouverability-- control surfaces behind the nose and at the tail
> 
> Propellant [as in most missiles , read the above qoute before spamming]- solid state rocket
> 
> Pakistan Military Review: Hatf IX NASR Multi Tube Ballistic Missile System

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## Windjammer

@AhaseebA , a few of these beauties deployed on the battle field and even armed with cluster munitions and the devastation of any aggressor is complete.

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## graphican

Rocky25 said:


> So you mean to say that the Nasr will nullify the Indian mechanized division... but not the Pakistani mechanized division facing the Indian one!
> 
> Cold start is rapid thrust! So the aim (Read again, it is just the 'aim' not capability) is Indian tanks will first come into the contact of the Pakistani Tanks ASAP! so in this instance the Nasr will be fired?
> 
> What if India opens a front in heavily populated areas! Will a Nasr be fired on that instance as well?



A nuclear weapon can severely affect 4KM-6KM Radius. If Pakistan would use Nasr with nuclear tipping, it would have to use it when its own tanks or mechanized divisions would be at-least not that close.


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## Rocky25

notorious_eagle said:


> Nothing stops India from doing that. But its a shoot and scoot type strategy. The vehicle will launch its load, and than scoot from the area of action. IA would first have to find the vehicle, keep a lock on it and than mobilize a response. It is definitely possible to take out this vehicle, but i would argue that the advantage is on the side of the Nasr due to its mobility and fast reaction time. NATO had a hard time detecting and engaging Iraqi Scud Missile launchers during Desert Storm, and IA does not even come close to the level of fire power, sophistication and the level of reccon level that NATO possessed.



 Only an real scenario proves whether Nasr will achieve its intended use.... If Indian divisions make the move... then Pakistan has to shoot on its feet.... I feel that this Nasr does NOT provide any great capabilities that Pakistan does not have!


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## KRAIT

Rocky25 said:


> That does not make India a win-win position unless all nukes are grabbed and break Pakistan even more pieces!


If they use one nuke, World will take away their nukes. Guaranteed.


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## doublemaster

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Its for ur cold war strategy! soil,water contamination dont matter in this case.. n the nuclear yield would be small but appropriate enough to wipe ur entire division n still be safe enough for our troops sitting 60kms away.



U mean india will just enter no mans land? i mean...ur bombs wont kil your citizen?


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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> @AhaseebA , a few of these beauties deployed on the battle field and even armed with cluster munitions and the devastation of any aggressor is complete.



Of course! Thats the point majority misses!
If we even mass-produce this system as a conventional one, armed with FAE/cluster/smart munitions in future...it would provide us with a very capable battlefield weapon. Could also be used against them TTP bastards.

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## Irfan Baloch

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Can anyone please tell me against which Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems was this missile tested? How do they know it can defeat them all?



a valid question and a good way to lead the discussion instead of self praise from Pakistanis and taunts & trolling from Indians

since the details will be kept classified so we can only speculate.

the most obvious ones can be

-low flight, high speed, complex flight path and in flight maneuverability
-low observability (speculating on paint, shape, and smaller flame)

making it harder for a tracking radar in track, lock and launch countermeasures like missiles etc. 

the more far-fledged assumption can be an on-board jamming system that would defeat the radars of any missile defence system.

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## ares

Those who are assuming that Pakistan can get away with Nuking Indian armored divisions or IBGs and India would hold back because nuclear strike was not on Indian soils..should read this..It is India's official nuclear doctrine.


> *CABINET COMMITTEE ON SECURITY REVIEWS PROGRESS IN OPERATIONALIZING INDIAS NUCLEAR DOCTRINE*
> 
> The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) met today to review the progress in operationalizing of Indias nuclear doctrine. The Committee decided that the following information, regarding the nuclear doctrine and operational arrangements governing Indias nuclear assets, should be shared with the public.
> 
> 2. Indias nuclear doctrine can be summarized as follows:
> 
> Building and maintaining a credible minimum deterrent;
> 
> *A posture of "No First Use" nuclear weapons will only be used in retaliation against a nuclear attack on Indian territory or on Indian forces anywhere;
> 
> Nuclear retaliation to a first strike will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage.*
> 
> Nuclear retaliatory attacks can only be authorised by the civilian political leadership through the Nuclear Command Authority.
> 
> Non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states;
> 
> *However, in the event of a major attack against India, or Indian forces anywhere, by biological or chemical weapons, India will retain
> the option of retaliating with nuclear weapons;
> 
> *A continuance of strict controls on export of nuclear and missile related materials and technologies, participation in the Fissile Material Cutoff Treaty negotiations, and continued observance of the moratorium on nuclear tests.
> Continued commitment to the goal of a nuclear weapon free world, through global, verifiable and non-discriminatory nuclear disarmament.
> 
> 3. The Nuclear Command Authority comprises a Political Council and an Executive Council. The Political Council is chaired by the Prime Minister. It is the sole body which can authorize the use of nuclear weapons.
> 
> 4. The Executive Council is chaired by the National Security Advisor. It provides inputs for decision making by the Nuclear Command Authority and executes the directives given to it by the Political Council.
> 
> 5. The CCS reviewed the existing command and control structures, the state of readiness, the targetting strategy for a retaliatory attack, and operating procedures for various stages of alert and launch. The Committee expressed satisfaction with the overall preparedness. The CCS approved the appointment of a Commander-in-Chief, Strategic Forces Command, to manage and administer all Strategic Forces.
> 
> 6. The CCS also reviewed and approved the arrangements for alternate chains of command for retaliatory nuclear strikes in all eventualities.
> 
> PIB Press Releases

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## Irfan Baloch

KRAIT said:


> If they use one nuke, World will take away their nukes. Guaranteed.



I doubt many of us on both sides of border will live to care what the world does to our unused nukes once one is used
may Americans keep the sole claim of using this shame for humanity for ever and ever.

Amen

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## Ayush

on my happy day.

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## Paan Singh

Irfan Baloch said:


> a valid question and a good way to lead the discussion instead of self praise from Pakistanis and taunts & trolling from Indians
> 
> since the details will be kept classified so we can only speculate.
> 
> the most obvious ones can be
> 
> -low flight, high speed, complex flight path and in flight maneuverability
> -low observability (speculating on paint, shape, and smaller flame)
> 
> making it harder for a tracking radar in track, lock and launch countermeasures like missiles etc.
> 
> the more far-fledged assumption can be an on-board jamming system that would defeat the radars of any missile defence system.



There is no missile who cant be tracked.Those who claims about low fly bla bla,it comes at last stage not in earlier ones.
Even brahmos is terrain hugging but in last stages not in earlier stage.

and india already have Prahaar version whose range is more than 150 km what pakistan is claiming here i.e tactical strike with small scale nukes


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## Armstrong

ares said:


> Those who are assuming that Pakistan can get away with Nuking Indian armored divisions or IBGs and India would hold back because nuclear strike was not on Indian soils..should read this..It is India's official nuclear doctrine.



So let me get this straight you're telling me that Nuking an Indian Armored Division would invite India nuking Lahore ?


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## Paan Singh

ares said:


> Those who are assuming that Pakistan can get away with Nuking Indian armored divisions or IBGs and India would hold back because nuclear strike was not on Indian soils..should read this..It is India's official nuclear doctrine.



When they dont have anything to say,they bring nukes.
I want to see when pakistanis will nuke their own land under indian forces  i.e fighting inside pakistan or taking fight inside pakistan


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## Rocky25

graphican said:


> A nuclear weapon can severely affect 4KM-6KM Radius. If Pakistan would use Nasr with nuclear tipping, it would have to use it when its own tanks or mechanized divisions would be at-least not that close.



Yes... That is the key... So the cold start will be really a cold start... i.e within a limited amount of time, You have to inflict the damage and teach the lesson! Else it should NOT be the cold start!

So they should move really very fact and attack the defensive forces with great zeal... It should make Pakistan to shoot itself in its chest rather than its feet!


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## Rocky25

AhaseebA said:


> Of course! Thats the point majority misses!
> If we even mass-produce this system as a conventional one, armed with FAE/cluster/smart munitions in future...it would provide us with a very capable battlefield weapon. Could also be used against them TTP bastards.



 It is only the 'Nuke' inside it makes it special... Without that... it is nothing!


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## Darth Vader

Rocky25 said:


> A nuke is a nuke.... India responds with the second strike which will be massive and cause unacceptable damage!



and what makes You think that PAK will wait for indian 2nd strike in nuclear war prbly
the 1st to use will be the winner

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## Emmie

KRAIT said:


> If they use one nuke, World will take away their nukes. Guaranteed.



The world would try hard to deescalate the tension before anything... More than half of the subcontinent will be spifflicated before the phase of confiscation.

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## The Deterrent

*For the 6th God Forsaken time, the purpose of Nasr is being discussed.* 

@OT: Video and Images are available at the first page now.

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## Irfan Baloch

Rocky25 said:


> It is only the 'Nuke' inside it makes it special... Without that... it is nothing!



raaaaaaaaaaaaaight... 

did you have breakfast today bro?

not all ballistic missiles are nuclear tipped. some have non-radioactive nasties that have very unpleasant effects on targets whther you call the effects special or not is down to your interpretation.

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## Rocky25

Armstrong said:


> So let me get this straight you're telling me that Nuking an Indian Armored Division would invite India nuking Lahore ?



It is stupid... If Indian army is trusting at many points with its armored divisions then will Pakistan's armored division be sitting in Afghan Border with Nasr missiles hitting the Indian division? The thing is you've to shoot at your feet for sure...


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## Hyperion

Koi toffee to nahin hai kay "world will take away their nukes"? 

_Yara, @KRAIT kabhi kabhi tumm bhee 'Think Tank' kee jagah "Think Tub" bann jatay ho. Woh bhe Junior, yani kay, chota wala tub. _



KRAIT said:


> If they use one nuke, World will take away their nukes. Guaranteed.

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## Rocky25

shahzadasweet said:


> and what makes You think that PAK will wait for indian 2nd strike in nuclear war prbly
> the 1st to use will be the winner



So for what India is developing the ABM and importing state of art radars?


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## graphican

Rocky25 said:


> Yes... That is the key... So the cold start will be really a cold start... i.e within a limited amount of time, You have to inflict the damage and teach the lesson! Else it should NOT be the cold start!
> 
> So they should move really very fact and attack the defensive forces with great zeal... It should make Pakistan to shoot itself in its chest rather than its feet!



Okay keep your line and tell me what some very short time India could achieve? And what would it do which wouldn't offend Pakistan but still get India "something" ? Just want to know what possibly you see as the "gain" of this very quick and very cold start doctrine?

The way I see, Nasr nullifies possibility of India attacking Pakistan with Mechanized Division and "cutting it in two-halves" as they always dreamed off. Now all you are left with is air-support and Osama kind of operation - BUT - who are you going to do that against and what in terms of strategic gains are you going to pull-off ?


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## farhan_9909

does neutron bomb has any radiation effect as well?

can a neutron bomb be miniaturized to fit into nasr?


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## Emmie

Rocky25 said:


> It is only the 'Nuke' inside it makes it special... Without that... it is nothing!



Can same be said for brahmos? It carries non conventional warhead!

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## notorious_eagle

ares said:


> But the thing is..in very new future a sizable portion of Indian warheads will be on SLBMs..already assembled and ready to fire at moments notice.
> 
> SLBMs launched off the coast of Pakistan..will have two to five minutes fly time to their targets.You will not see the Indian response coming until it has already hit its intended target.
> 
> So question is. can you risk loosing your entire nuclear strike capability..even before you have exhausted your conventional response capability...just so that you can fire a small nuclear warning shot.



We will talk about this scenario when the Indian SLBM's come online and are mated with your Nuke Subs . Oh and just for the record, Pakistan has built several underground facilities to ensure that her nuclear command and control centres and nukes stay intact in case of a pre emptive nuclear strike. India by no means has the capability to take out Pakistan's nukes in a pre emptive attack, the only two countries that have this capability are US and Russia. 



Rocky25 said:


> Only an real scenario proves whether Nasr will achieve its intended use.... If Indian divisions make the move... then Pakistan has to shoot on its feet.... *I feel that this Nasr does NOT provide any great capabilities that Pakistan does not have!*



Okay than, your feelings are duly noted so now you can stop trying so hard convincing us Pakistanis that Nasr has no tactical or strategic value. We own this missile and we feel that it has immense value, so case closed.

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## Armstrong

Rocky25 said:


> It is stupid... If Indian army is trusting at many points with its armored divisions then will Pakistan's armored division be sitting in Afghan Border with Nasr missiles hitting the Indian division? The thing is you've to shoot at your feet for sure...



Why would Indian Armored Divisions be thrusting at many areas on the Pakistani border with us being oblivious to it ? 

Can't you understand what the tactical nukes bring to the table - No thrusting, no attacking each other, no large scale mobilization - No nothing of the sort ! 

We could take out your FOBs before you'd cross into Pakistan & vice versa for Indian taking out our FOBs - This is what the deterrent is all about !

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## ares

Armstrong said:


> So let me get this straight you're telling me that Nuking an Indian Armored Division would invite India nuking Lahore ?



No, Nuking Civilian population centers does not make sense..unless Pakistan has big nuclear stockpile stored amidst population centers which can not be taken by precision strikes.

A preemptive strike is designed to be decapitating strike ..to take out or severely restrict Pakistan launch capabilities.

Objectively seeing..the foremost aim of Indian leadership after initial Pakistani nuclear strike, will be to minimize further Indian losses..at same time punishing Pakistan for using nuclear weapons.

The only way both these objectives are met are by carrying out precision strikes against know launch sites or if accurate position of these weapons sites is not known..then carry out wider area nuclear strikes to decapitate Pakistani nuclear launch capabilities.


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## Irfan Baloch

graphican said:


> Okay keep your line and tell me what some very short time India could achieve? And what would it do which wouldn't offend Pakistan but still get India "something" ? Just want to know what possibly you see as the "gain" of this very quick and very cold start doctrine?



he is just worried much and not making any sense

he wants us to say that we will not use this missile if India does the cold start. 
some people call is Jalab lugna.. thats what is happening with the chap

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## Darth Vader

Rocky25 said:


> So for what India is developing the ABM and importing state of art radars?



its not US and russia, PAK IND war scenario is different story cz every thing will be done in just few secs bcz of our geographic location

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## Rocky25

Irfan Baloch said:


> raaaaaaaaaaaaaight...
> 
> did you have breakfast today bro?
> 
> not all ballistic missiles are nuclear tipped. some have non-radioactive nasties that have very unpleasant effects on targets whther you call the effects special or not is down to your interpretation.



It is supposedly called 'Tactical' because it carried the nuke material in low quantity! For non-nuke payload, doesn't Pakistan have other missiles?

If you are firing a ballistic missile then it may contain nukes or chemical or biological weapons.... All may create great effect! That's why India has a clause in its no-first use doctrine!


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## Hyperion

For the gazillionth time. ABM = Anti Ballistic Missile 



Rocky25 said:


> So for what India is developing the ABM and importing state of art radars?

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## Irfan Baloch

ares said:


> No, Nuking Civilian population centers does not make sense..



why do Nuclear capable countries have bombs that are 10 to 100 times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Japan ? 

why should making and dropping a nuke should make sense at all? 

sense... a rare earth commodity that is becoming extinct as our weapons become smarter and deadlier.

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## Armstrong

ares said:


> No, Nuking Civilian population centers does not make sense..unless Pakistan has big nuclear stockpile stored amidst population centers which can not be taken by precision strikes.
> 
> A preemptive strike is designed to be decapitating strike ..to take out or severely restrict Pakistan launch capabilities.
> 
> Objectively seeing..the foremost aim of Indian leadership after initial Pakistani nuclear strike, will be to minimize further Indian losses..at same time punishing Pakistan for using nuclear weapons.
> 
> The only way both these objectives are met are by carrying out precision strikes against know launch sites or if accurate position of these weapons sites is not known..then carry out wider area nuclear strikes to decapitate Pakistani nuclear launch capabilities.



But that isn't going to achieve anything ? Taking out known Pakistani Nuclear Sites doesn't factor in the Unknown Pakistani Nuclear sites, the Mobile Launchers, the Air-Launched Nukes, the Sea-Launched & the possible future sub-surface Launched Nukes ! Even if we're left with 5-10 nukes after your preemptive strike thats more than enough to kill tens of millions of Indians. 

That is why I reiterate that Tactical Nukes & the mobility that they've provided including the mobility of our SRBMs & MRBMs platforms ensures that there is no large scale conflict between India & Pakistan. At best we're looking at proxy wars being fought between the two (as some quarters suggest that is already true) at worst we're looking at a small border skirmish that would even pale in comparison to Kargil with a stand-off being somewhere in the middle ! 

No one is going to mobilize entire corps & cross over into the other's territory because mutually assured destruction has just been devolved to the divisional level on both sides.

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## Irfan Baloch

Rocky25 said:


> I feel that this Nasr does *NOT *provide any great capabilities that Pakistan does *not *have!



Double Negation
*A double negative occurs when two forms of negation are used in the same sentence
*

so its imperative that you are saying



> "I feel that this Nasr *does *provide any *great capabilities* that Pakistan *does *]have"

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## Rocky25

graphican said:


> Okay keep your line and tell me what some very short time India could achieve? And what would it do which wouldn't offend Pakistan but still get India "something" ? Just want to know what possibly you see as the "gain" of this very quick and very cold start doctrine?
> 
> The way I see, Nasr nullifies possibility of India attacking Pakistan with Mechanized Division and "cutting it in two-halves" as they always dreamed off. Now all you are left with is air-support and Osama kind of operation - BUT - who are you going to do that against and what in terms of strategic gains are you going to pull-off ?



Read 'Cold Start' Doctrine which India developed after 2002 stand-off which took 1 month to get the troops near Pakistani border!

Nasr does not nullify anything... If there is NO Pakistani Army and Pakistani Tanks which stops the incoming Indian Division... There is NO need for Army at all! Just with Nasr, you can fight a war! When both armies are fighting at close proximity then you(At least we will NOT) cannot fire a nuke at that area!



Emmie said:


> Can same be said for brahmos? It carries non conventional warhead!



I don't understand your question. Anyways it is the speed that makes the Brahmos special... Without that it is NOTHING!


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## Shadow_Hunter

Irfan Baloch said:


> Double Negation
> *A double negative occurs when two forms of negation are used in the same sentence
> *
> 
> so its imperative that you are saying



Please read and reply to post #37 of this thread


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## Irfan Baloch

Armstrong said:


> Junior Think Tub - More like a Plastic Lotaa !



please edit your post
its done in bad taste

he should be the last person you should target

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## Armstrong

Irfan Baloch said:


> please edit your post
> its done in bad taste
> 
> he should be the last person you should target



*Irfan Bhai*, hes my friend..he knows I'm just kidding with him !  

But okay I will.

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## ares

Irfan Baloch said:


> why do Nuclear capable countries have bombs that are 10 to 100 times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Japan ?
> 
> why should making and dropping a nuke should make sense at all?
> 
> 
> 
> sense... a rare earth commodity that is becoming extinct as our weapons become smarter and deadlier.



It does not..that is why these mental exercises have remained a 'mental' excersise after the first two bombs were dropped.


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## KRAIT

Hyperion said:


> Koi toffee to nahin hai kay "world will take away their nukes"?
> _Yara, @KRAIT kabhi kabhi tumm bhee 'Think Tank' kee jagah "Think Tub" bann jatay ho. Woh bhe Junior, yani kay, chota wala tub. _


Well people thought that Soviet Russia was invinvible and its nukes will keep it safe. What happened ? The broke into pieces. Their population decreased.

Now imagine if you use one Nuke, what will world do ? Iran, North Korea is a good example before you.

Buddy, things are much complicated. US invaded Iraq over So called WMD and no one came to rescue Saddam. And here I am talking about Tactical Nukes.

Propaganda against Pakistan is already increasing. All you have to do is consider various scenarios.
*
The non-linearity of events and Chaotic dynamics of Conflict situation is a special branch in Mathematical modeling. Read about it.*


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## Rocky25

Armstrong said:


> Why would Indian Armored Divisions be thrusting at many areas on the Pakistani border with us being oblivious to it ?
> 
> Can't you understand what the tactical nukes bring to the table - No thrusting, no attacking each other, no large scale mobilization - No nothing of the sort !
> 
> We could take out your FOBs before you'd cross into Pakistan & vice versa for Indian taking out our FOBs - This is what the deterrent is all about !



Ada Rama! Rama.... For Pakistani nukes... India developed Cold Start... For Indian cold start... Pakistan developed Nasr... Cold start means India should amass troops and do quick trust! In matter of hours!

This goes in vicious circles! So if Indian penetrates with great speed... Then Nasr is worthless... If India cannot penetrate with speed then cold start is worthless!


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## Hyperion

*Layman introduction to basics of Nuclear Energy by Hypey:* 

Neutron bomb is nothing other than a normal thermonuclear bomb (not exactly thermonuclear, however for ease of your understanding), where instead of reflecting the neutrons towards the core for a thermonuclear detonation (stage two) they are allowed to escape outwards when part two of the core goes critical. 

Maximum damage to human life, minimal damage to infrastructure. (Fast Neutrons > Explosive Pack)

One the other hand if you focus the same neutrons towards core number two, you get a thermonuclear weapon. Addtionally if you add tritium/deuterium to it @ core center, you get a boosted thermonuclear device. Where the word boosted refers to extra punch derived from the same core volume. 






farhan_9909 said:


> does neutron bomb has any radiation effect as well?
> 
> can a neutron bomb be miniaturized to fit into nasr?

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## Shadow_Hunter

Emmie said:


> Can same be said for brahmos? It carries non conventional warhead!



Wrong..................


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## Rocky25

Irfan Baloch said:


> he is just worried much and not making any sense
> 
> he wants us to say that we will not use this missile if India does the cold start.
> some people call is Jalab lugna.. thats what is happening with the chap



Am I not making sense? oops.... I don't understand how can you use nukes in the same area where your troops are fighting from heaven to earth!



Hyperion said:


> For the gazillionth time. ABM = Anti Ballistic Missile



Yes, for the second time, see for what I had replied!


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## Hyperion

I studied Chaos Theory from one of the most eminent mathematicians out there, incidentally, he was also an Indian (Sikh). He used to be faculty chair @ University of Florida - Gainesville.



KRAIT said:


> Well people thought that Soviet Russia was invinvible and its nukes will keep it safe. What happened ? The broke into pieces. Their population decreased.
> 
> Now imagine if you use one Nuke, what will world do ? Iran, North Korea is a good example before you.
> 
> Buddy, things are much complicated. US invaded Iraq over So called WMD and no one came to rescue Saddam. And here I am talking about Tactical Nukes.
> 
> Propaganda against Pakistan is already increasing. All you have to do is consider various scenarios.
> *
> The non-linearity of events and Chaotic dynamics of Conflict situation is a special branch in Mathematical modeling. Read about it.*

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## Armstrong

Rocky25 said:


> Ada Rama! Rama.... For Pakistani nukes... India developed Cold Start... For Indian cold start... Pakistan developed Nasr... Cold start means India should amass troops and do quick trust! In matter of hours!
> 
> This goes in vicious circles! So if Indian penetrates with great speed... Then Nasr is worthless... If India cannot penetrate with speed then cold start is worthless!



Yup thats why it ain't gonna happen...there is going to be no Cold Start & no Nasr being fired on anything ! Its going to be proxy wars, information wars & economic leveraging which suits India exponentially more so than it does Pakistan; maybe our high command would sober up to the importance of public relations & perceptions management !
@Hyperion : Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?

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## Rajput_Pakistani

After reading the comments of Indian posters, i am only shocked at the depth of their knowledge regarding defence issues. Posters with 10,000 or so posts, giving away meaningless and misleading views. If you have nothing substantial to say, why the hell wasting your time and others. Here are some points regarding NASR.

1. Pakistan's first ballistic missile was Hatf-1, with a range of 60km, developed in late 80's. Hatf-1 place in overall Pak Army doctrine can be summed up by the fact that it was operational under artillery corps. Hatf-1 even not so accurate, at that time gave Pak army the capability, to strike large enemy targets like ammunition and fuel depots, command centers etc. deep within enemy territory out of the range of conventional artillery.
2. As the Pakistan ballistic missile program matured, new and more accurate missiles were developed. SRBM Hatf-2 Ghaznavi with a range of 150kms and more accuracy, replaced Hatf-1.
3. Pakistan has developed tactical nuclear weapons, quite a while ago. Even so, the 2nd round test of 30 May, 1998 was of a smaller nuclear device.
4. Pakistan has achieved nuclear capability in as early as 1984, but took quite some time to develop a miniaturized nuclear weapon, which could be carried by ballistic missile and even our fighter planes.
5. Now Pakistan has in its kitty, a diverse range of nuclear weapons (strategic and tactical). Similarly diverse delivery platforms ensure a credible nuclear deterrent.
6. Pakistan nuclear weapon program is purely a defensive program, the blame for bringing in nuclear weapons in South Asia is on India.
7. NASR is a battlefield deployed missile with excellent CEP, which can strike targets deep within enemy territory. It is just another extension of our artillery's capabilities. In other words, NASR is a new generation replacement of our old HATF SRBM system. It can carry a wide variety of war-heads including tactical nuclear weapons. It has shoot and scoot capabilty, which gives it a better survivability in battlefield. It can carry more missiles and with 4-tubes launch plateform, can fire at more targets within no time. Now what is the difficulty in assimilating this simple thing that it can? Who the hell has said that it will only carry tactical nuclear weapon? It has the capability and depending upon the situation, Pakistan has every right to use it as we like.
8. Regarding, cold start doctrine.. Even serious Indian defence analysts are skeptical over it. It has major flaws.
9. Why are Indians so sure that, Pakistan has no defence at all except resorting to nuclear attack on India??
10. It is beyond the scope of my post, but can Indians please just for one time give me a deployment plan for their armored corps on 2200km border along Pakistan. How much tanks and troops will you be able to deploy in Rajhistan at any given moment? What are your plans for countering Pakistani response in Jammu sector and Lahore-Kasur axis? How the hell would you move your entire army along Pakistan border and still maintain an element of surprise? I can go on and on but.........
11. Now, after my above point, if anyone still consider Pakistan a defenseless country, who will just watch Indian armored columns rolling in as they are parading in Delhi 26 January, then the gentleman seriously need a mental check-up.

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## Hyperion

Two completely unrelated things. Can we convert a Ferrari into a 16 wheeler, or vice versa? I'll leave the rest of guess work to you.



Armstrong said:


> Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?

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## Irfan Baloch

Rocky25 said:


> Am I not making sense? oops.... I don't understand how can you use nukes in the same area where your troops are fighting from heaven to earth!
> 
> 
> !



no my dear you dont
you are questioning its range like others
dont know why you decided that it will be used in the vicinity of our own troops.

the problem is something else

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## ares

Armstrong said:


> But that isn't going to achieve anything ? Taking out known Pakistani Nuclear Sites doesn't factor in the Unknown Pakistani Nuclear sites, the Mobile Launchers, the Air-Launched Nukes, the Sea-Launched & the possible future sub-surface Launched Nukes ! Even if we're left with 5-10 nukes after your preemptive strike thats more than enough to kill tens of millions of Indians.


From Indian perceptive Pakistan remaining with ten nukes is a much better scenario than Pakistan remaining with 100 Nukes.
Pakistan launching 10 nukes is still better than it launching 50 nukes.
Now some these nuclear launches will directed against cities having missile defenses .. further lowering the casualties on Indian side.
Once that first nuclear shot fired..both countries will be fighting for their survival.



Armstrong said:


> That is why I reiterate that Tactical Nukes & the mobility that they've provided including the mobility of our SRBMs & MRBMs platforms ensures that there is no large scale conflict between India & Pakistan.
> 
> At best we're looking at proxy wars being fought between the two (as some quarters suggest that is already true) at worst we're looking at a small border skirmish that would even pale in comparison to Kargil with a stand-off being somewhere in the middle !



Actually it does the opposite, by introducing a nuclear weapons on the battlefield you are ensuring even a small scale conflict turn into full scale nuclear war.For example in limited conflict like Kargil(which was incidentally initiated by Pakistan) ..had Pakistan used tactical nuclear weapon or Indian corp deployed in Kargil..do you think ..things would progressed as it did..India would not have given full scale nuclear response.


Armstrong said:


> No one is going to mobilize entire corps & cross over into the other's territory because mutually assured destruction has just been devolved to the divisional level on both sides.



Armies exist to fight..wars happen, even in a nuclear overhang. 

On the other hand, another way seeing the entire scenario can be. 
By assuring than any nuclear strike(small or big) will see a massive Indian nuclear retaliation..India is assuring that neither side uses nuclear weapons, unless as a last resort.

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## Armstrong

KRAIT said:


> Well people thought that Soviet Russia was invinvible and its nukes will keep it safe. What happened ? The broke into pieces. Their population decreased.
> 
> Now imagine if you use one Nuke, what will world do ? Iran, North Korea is a good example before you.
> 
> Buddy, things are much complicated. US invaded Iraq over So called WMD and no one came to rescue Saddam. And here I am talking about Tactical Nukes.
> 
> Propaganda against Pakistan is already increasing. All you have to do is consider various scenarios.
> *
> The non-linearity of events and Chaotic dynamics of Conflict situation is a special branch in Mathematical modeling. Read about it.*



I only watched the Movie - Chaos Theory !  

But dude who is going to be using the tactical nukes ? How is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan the same as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - We're not a Union of countries that can be broken apart...we're a country that is besought by a plethora of problems but no one is looking to secede from it, even the Baluch themselves; more autonomy is what every federating unit wants & they'd get it. Neither are we ideologically motivated to fight a war with the US to assert how Islam is right & everything; we're more into China...which means - Take your time, build yourself up & then assert should you wish to ! 

Neither are we Iran or NK in that we can & we do compromise on stuff....our timidity accrues this benefit ! 

Nor are we Iraq - They didn't have any Nukes...we do ! If our territorial integrity is threatened; our nukes may not reach Washington but they may hit the career group in the Arabian Sea & every US base in a 1000 mile radius ! But that is an eventuality thats never going to pass. 

P.S @Hyperion : Can you please tell him that his Signature is backwards !

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## Rocky25

Armstrong said:


> Yup thats why it ain't gonna happen...there is going to be no Cold Start & no Nasr being fired on anything ! Its going to be proxy wars, information wars & economic leveraging which suits India exponentially more so than it does Pakistan; maybe our high command would sober up to the importance of public relations & perceptions management !
> @Hyperion : Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?



For that there should be NO terrorists attacks on India from Pakistani Soil... Which opens another round of argument from where the terror emanates... If Pakistan sends terrorist... India should send the surgical teams into Pakistan to eliminate the terrorist camps!

Whether India with its surgical strike can hit the terrorist camps.... is a question yet to be answered with so many if's and but's

If India strikes a terrorist camp in Pakistan, Will Pakistan remain silent?

It call all be stopped... If Pakistan destroys all forms of terrorist! Which won't happen... So there wont be any peace!


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## Safriz

Nasr has 'canards' attatched to warhead assembly and for that reason its manoeverable upto the last moment.
That means it can perform manoevers to confuse ABM and also increase missile accuracy.

But why did they 'test' an already tested missile?
What new they did this time?

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## Irfan Baloch

Safriz said:


> Nasr has 'canards' attatched to warhead assembly and for that reason its manoeverable upto the last moment.
> That means it can perform manoevers to confuse ABM and also increase missile accuracy.
> 
> But why did they 'test' an already tested missile?
> What new they did this time?



post 169 has the answer
checking how Indians will react to it.


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## Rocky25

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> After reading the comments of Indian posters, i am only shocked at the depth of their knowledge regarding defence issues. Posters with 10,000 or so posts, giving away meaningless and misleading views. If you have nothing substantial to say, why the hell wasting your time and others. Here are some points regarding NASR.
> 
> 1. Pakistan's first ballistic missile was Hatf-1, with a range of 60km, developed in late 80's. Hatf-1 place in overall Pak Army doctrine can be summed up by the fact that it was operational under artillery corps. Hatf-1 even not so accurate, at that time gave Pak army the capability, to strike large enemy targets like ammunition and fuel depots, command centers etc. deep within enemy territory out of the range of conventional artillery.
> 2. As the Pakistan ballistic missile program matured, new and more accurate missiles were developed. SRBM Hatf-2 Ghaznavi with a range of 150kms and more accuracy, replaced Hatf-1.
> 3. Pakistan has developed tactical nuclear weapons, quite a while ago. Even so, the 2nd round test of 30 May, 1998 was of a smaller nuclear device.
> 4. Pakistan has achieved nuclear capability in as early as 1984, but took quite some time to develop a miniaturized nuclear weapon, which could be carried by ballistic missile and even our fighter planes.
> 5. Now Pakistan has in its kitty, a diverse range of nuclear weapons (strategic and tactical). Similarly diverse delivery platforms ensure a credible nuclear deterrent.
> 6. Pakistan nuclear weapon program is purely a defensive program, the blame for bringing in nuclear weapons in South Asia is on India.
> 7. NASR is a battlefield deployed missile with excellent CEP, which can strike targets deep within enemy territory. It is just another extension of our artillery's capabilities. In other words, NASR is a new generation replacement of our old HATF SRBM system. It can carry a wide variety of war-heads including tactical nuclear weapons. It has shoot and scoot capabilty, which gives it a better survivability in battlefield. It can carry more missiles and with 4-tubes launch plateform, can fire at more targets within no time. Now what is the difficulty in assimilating this simple thing that it can? Who the hell has said that it will only carry tactical nuclear weapon? It has the capability and depending upon the situation, Pakistan has every right to use it as we like.
> 8. Regarding, cold start doctrine.. Even serious Indian defence analysts are skeptical over it. It has major flaws.
> 9. Why are Indians so sure that, Pakistan has no defence at all except resorting to nuclear attack on India??
> 10. It is beyond the scope of my post, but can Indians please just for one time give me a deployment plan for their armored corps on 2200km border along Pakistan. How much tanks and troops will you be able to deploy in Rajhistan at any given moment? What are your plans for countering Pakistani response in Jammu sector and Lahore-Kasur axis? How the hell would you move your entire army along Pakistan border and still maintain an element of surprise? I can go on and on but.........
> 11. Now, after my above point, if anyone still consider Pakistan a defenseless country, who will just watch Indian armored columns rolling in as they are parading in Delhi 26 January, then the gentleman seriously need a mental check-up.



You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!



Irfan Baloch said:


> no my dear you dont
> you are questioning its rage like others
> dont know why you decided that it will be used in the vicinity of our own troops.
> 
> the problem is something else



Ah... boy it is you!

Don't know why you can think that there will NOT be Pakistani defensive corps who will be stopping Indian advancement for you to fire the Nasr... When Indian infantry progress will Pakistani infantry go back so that Nasr will be fired upon?


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## Hyperion

Eik gadhay nay sardar ko lat mari aur bhag gaya
Sardar uskay pechay bhaga
Rasty mein usko Zebra mila
Sardar Zebra ko lat mar kay bola:
Sala sweater pehan ke ullu banata hai


My joke carries more weight than your lame 'personal' point of view.



Rocky25 said:


> You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!

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## Rajput_Pakistani

Rocky25 said:


> You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!



And your nuclear weapons were born in a maternity ward of Delhi hospital?
F**** off


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## True pakistani 22

Nasr Missile The Game changer


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## KRAIT

Hyperion said:


> I studied Chaos Theory from one of the most eminent mathematicians out there, incidentally, he was also an Indian (Sikh). He used to be faculty chair @ University of Florida - Gainesville.


If he was from IIT, he might be student of my Prof. 

University of Maryland is quite good in this research field. Indians work a lot in this field too. 

Most of these war scenarios are simulated through various nonlinear equations and requires super computer to do so.

I can tell you an interesting research paper on Emotional Dynamics of Love explained by Nonlinear Equations and Butterfly effect. The author has used English literature for it.

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## Armstrong

ares said:


> From Indian perceptive Pakistan remaining with ten nukes is a much better scenario than Pakistan remaining with 100 Nukes.
> Pakistan launching 10 nukes is still better than it launching 50 nukes.
> Now some these nuclear launches will directed against cities having missile defenses .. further lowering the casualties on Indian side.
> Once that first nuclear shot fired..both countries will be fighting for their survival.



On the contrary that achieves nothing because even a single nuke is one too many ! No Indian preemptive strike can hope to lessen Pakistan's nuclear capability to even an acceptably lower level whereby an acceptable number of casualties could be achieved. 




ares said:


> Actually it does the opposite, by introducing a nuclear weapons on the battlefield you are ensuring even a small scale conflict turn into full scale nuclear war.For example in limited conflict like Kargil(which was incidentally initiated by Pakistan) ..had Pakistan used tactical nuclear weapon or Indian corp deployed in Kargil..do you think ..things would progressed as it did..India would not have given full scale nuclear response.



I never said that ! The presence of a tactical nuke ensures that a limited conflict isn't going to turn into an all out war ! The presence of tactical nukes which can target every single Indian FOB & can conversely target every single Pakistani FOB ensures that neither side crosses the International Border & risks retaliation from the other side. One could argue that the same Kargil episode, the '01 Stand-Off & the Mumbai Bombings are testament to that; India after all showed, what was euphemistically put as, 'measured restraint' ! 




ares said:


> Armies exist to fight..wars happen, even in a nuclear overhang.
> 
> On the other hand, another way seeing the entire scenario can be.
> By assuring than any nuclear strike(small or big) will see a massive Indian nuclear retaliation..India is assuring that neither side uses nuclear weapons, unless as a last resort.



Agreed armies do exist to fight & that is why we & you both have one just so to cater for the possibility that the Tactical Nukes aren't enough to dissuade the other side from attacking. 

As for the massive Indian Nuclear Retaliation - That is massively flawed because no amount of massive retaliation can dissuade Pakistan from retaliating in kind. That is why the Tactical Nukes will not be replied with a disproportionate response form the Indian side lest we return that in kind by taking out most Indian FOBs as well Nuclear Installations.

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## KRAIT

@Hyperion WTF................What the hell was that ?

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## Hyperion

Yups designed many scenarios with him. In 1999 we had two custom made Hyundai Electronics (they don't exist in the field any longer) super computers at our disposal to play various scenarios / games. One of my most favorite subject. Non linear modeling and simulation.

And yes, he was an IITian. He loved me like a son, him and his wife used to invite me to all the dinners. He later became a very good friend of my dad as well. May God rest his soul, he passed away in 2008. One of the saddest days of my life. He helped me so much that I shall always be grateful to him.



KRAIT said:


> If he was from IIT, he might be student of my Prof.
> 
> University of Maryland is quite good in this research field. Indians work a lot in this field too.
> 
> Most of these war scenarios are simulated through various nonlinear equations and requires super computer to do so.
> 
> I can tell you an interesting research paper on Emotional Dynamics of Love explained by Nonlinear Equations and Butterfly effect. The author has used English literature for it.

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## Armstrong

Rocky25 said:


> For that there should be NO terrorists attacks on India from Pakistani Soil... Which opens another round of argument from where the terror emanates... If Pakistan sends terrorist... India should send the surgical teams into Pakistan to eliminate the terrorist camps!
> 
> Whether India with its surgical strike can hit the terrorist camps.... is a question yet to be answered with so many if's and but's
> 
> If India strikes a terrorist camp in Pakistan, Will Pakistan remain silent?
> 
> It call all be stopped... If Pakistan destroys all forms of terrorist! Which won't happen... So there wont be any peace!



We maintain that there are no terrorist training camps in Pakistan that target India & we consul India to name & shame us before the International Community through various organs of International Organization by providing credible evidence to suggest that Pakistan has terrorist training camps & is sending them over to India !  

The rest is a lot of 'if' & 'buts' but I reckon India won't be able to carry out a surgical strike in Pakistan for another 30-40 years assuming we're in the same sh*tty state as we are today.

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## Rocky25

Hyperion said:


> Eik gadhay nay sardar ko lat mari aur bhag gaya
> Sardar uskay pechay bhaga
> Rasty mein usko Zebra mila
> Sardar Zebra ko lat mar kay bola:
> Sala sweater pehan ke ullu banata hai
> 
> 
> My joke carries more weight than your lame 'personal' point of view.



Who told it is my point of view! 

We Stole Nuclear Technology-A.Q.Khan,Pakistan. | Ramani's blog

The Rbinson Rojas Archive.- China's intelligence on U.S. nuclear arsenal - Stolen Technology Used in Three Years - THE COX REPORT.- RRojas Databank: Analysis and Information on economics, development, research methods, globalization, poverty, sustain

Now that is a fact!


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## Shadow_Hunter

KRAIT said:


> If he was from IIT, he might be student of my Prof.
> 
> University of Maryland is quite good in this research field. Indians work a lot in this field too.
> 
> Most of these war scenarios are simulated through various nonlinear equations and requires super computer to do so.
> 
> I can tell you an interesting research paper on Emotional Dynamics of Love explained by Nonlinear Equations and Butterfly effect. The author has used English literature for it.



You an IITian? Which one?


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## Hyperion

Yara, he started to annoy me with stupidity. 



KRAIT said:


> @Hyperion WTF................What the hell was that ?



_Hmmm... tumhara koi ilaaj nahin hai meray dost. Aaj kal facts mera khayal hai kay 'blogs' parr miltay hain! _



Rocky25 said:


> Who told it is my point of view!
> 
> We Stole Nuclear Technology-A.Q.Khan,Pakistan. | Ramani's blog
> 
> The Rbinson Rojas Archive.- China's intelligence on U.S. nuclear arsenal - Stolen Technology Used in Three Years - THE COX REPORT.- RRojas Databank: Analysis and Information on economics, development, research methods, globalization, poverty, sustain
> 
> Now that is a fact!

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## Rocky25

Armstrong said:


> We maintain that there are no terrorist training camps in Pakistan that target India & we consul India to name & shame us before the International Community through various organs of International Organization by providing credible evidence to suggest that Pakistan has terrorist training camps & is sending them over to India !
> 
> The rest is a lot of 'if' & 'buts' but I reckon India won't be able to carry out a surgical strike in Pakistan for another 30-40 years assuming we're in the same sh*tty state as we are today.



Yes the world knows that Osama Bin Laden is NOT killed is Pakistan territory!

Regarding the surgical strike... Indian Army has the capability but Indian political class does not have the balls!


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## Armstrong

Rocky25 said:


> Yes the world knows that Osama Bin Laden is NOT killed is Pakistan territory!
> 
> Regarding the surgical strike... Indian Army has the capability but Indian political class does not have the balls!



Its a big country; they never brought any proof incriminating the ISI for housing OBL !  

Sure they do ! 

Okay People I'm off !  

Anyone up for some Samosas ?

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## Rocky25

Hyperion said:


> Yara, he started to annoy me with stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> _Hmmm... tumhara koi ilaaj nahin hai meray dost. Aaj kal facts mera khayal hai kay 'blogs' parr miltay hain! _



tara tora bora.. tera, nara, para, sara, maar gaya! You cannot type in English?



Armstrong said:


> Its a big country; they never brought any proof incriminating the ISI for housing OBL !
> 
> Sure they do !
> 
> Okay People I'm off !
> 
> Anyone up for some Samosas ?



Hum... What are they going to do by incriminating the ISI!

Anyways I am also off with kingfisher beer!

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## Hyperion

@Rocky25, mate enjoy the beer. You pissed me off so much, I'll also have one after a long time. With chicken wings.

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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> @Rocky25, mate enjoy the beer. You pissed me off so much, I'll also have one after a long time. With chicken wings.



imported beer... cries the boy
imported chicken with imported herbs.... cries the boy

still hits the spot.. says you

just like this Missile...no matter how short ranged.. hits where it hurts
as I put it mildly in post # 169

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## Hyperion

LMAO... 

Ussay kaafia bhe mill gaya aur **** bhee phatt gayee uski! 



Irfan Baloch said:


> imported beer... cries the boy
> imported chicken with imported herbs.... cries the boy
> 
> still hits the spot.. says you
> 
> just like this Missile...no matter how short ranged.. hits where it hurts
> as I put it mildly in post # 169


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Nasr has 'canards' attatched to warhead assembly and for that reason its manoeverable upto the last moment.
> That means it can perform manoevers to confuse ABM and also increase missile accuracy.
> 
> But why did they 'test' an already tested missile?
> What new they did this time?



1. Testing salvo firing mode. As seen in the video, the two missiles were fired with a time interval of a couple of seconds. _(the video is cut, but the smoke trail of the first missile hints the time interval)_. 

2. Two more missiles were seen in the video which weren't fired, indicating that they were placed for testing the pressure and shock imparted on the launcher by missiles which were fired.

3. The term maneuverable missile has been used for the first time, indicating that probably for the first time the canards were utilized to perform unpredictable flight maneuvers _(previously used for course correction only perhaps)_, thereby giving the ability to confuse AB

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## JonAsad

Rocky25 said:


> tara tora bora.. tera, nara, para, sara, maar gaya! You cannot type in English?
> 
> 
> 
> Hum... What are they going to do by incriminating the ISI!
> 
> *Anyways I am also off with kingfisher beer!*



Thanks good lord almighty- now we can talk on topic- -

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## ares

Armstrong said:


> On the contrary that achieves nothing because even a single nuke is one too many ! No Indian preemptive strike can hope to lessen Pakistan's nuclear capability to even an acceptably lower level whereby an acceptable number of casualties could be achieved.
> 
> 
> The term "Acceptable casualties" is incumbent to the scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that ! The presence of a tactical nuke ensures that a limited conflict isn't going to turn into an all out war ! The presence of tactical nukes which can target every single Indian FOB & can conversely target every single Pakistani FOB ensures that neither side crosses the International Border & risks retaliation from the other side. One could argue that the same Kargil episode, the '01 Stand-Off & the Mumbai Bombings are testament to that; India after all showed, what was euphemistically put as, 'measured restraint' !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed armies do exist to fight & that is why we & you both have one just so to cater for the possibility that the Tactical Nukes aren't enough to dissuade the other side from attacking.
> 
> As for the massive Indian Nuclear Retaliation - That is massively flawed because no amount of massive retaliation can dissuade Pakistan from retaliating in kind. That is why the Tactical Nukes will not be replied with a disproportionate response form the Indian side lest we return that in kind by taking out most Indian FOBs as well Nuclear Installations.



For a country of 1200 million..10 million casualties will be an acceptable scenario if the other scenario involves the complete destruction. 
There is some serious flaw in the Pakistani thinking process here, if you think a Pakistani nuclear strike on Indian soldiers will not invite an Indian nuclear response on Pakistan.
Now if Indian response is a proportional one, perhaps a Pakistani armored corps or nuclear weapons base.
Pakistan will surely attack back with more nuclear weapons, this time on Indian soil..thus will begin process of gradual escalation in which major portion of both the countries will be destroyed.

Indian response of massive nuclear strike after the first Pakistani strike ensures, we directly jump to the last step ..so that number of Pakistani nukes launched on India are kept to the minimum.

Surely it is not ideal scenario..but its the best one India can get, if the war has already gone nuclear.

Policy of massive retaliation is not dissuade Pakistan from launching the second strike(which you will launch with whatever is left of your arsenal)..but dissuade Pakistan from first strike itself.

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## JonAsad

One question-

If the missiles are supposedly fired in salvos be it with or without tactical warheads- why there is a need for canards and manoevering?-


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## The Deterrent

JonAsad said:


> One question-
> 
> If the missiles are supposedly fired in salvos be it with or without tactical warheads- why there is a need for canards and manoevering?-



Nasr is not a MBRL. It has only four missiles per vehicle, so each missile has to be survivable enough. It should be noted that Nasr is a modern missile, developed considering the evolving threats to ballistic missiles. Shaheen-IA is developed keeping the same threat in mind, and so will be the future ballistic missiles of Pakistan.

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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> 1. Testing salvo firing mode. As seen in the video, the two missiles were fired with a time interval of a couple of seconds. _(the video is cut, but the smoke trail of the first missile hints the time interval)_.
> 
> 2. Two more missiles were seen in the video which weren't fired, indicating that they were placed for testing the pressure and shock imparted on the launcher by missiles which were fired.
> 
> 3. The term maneuverable missile has been used for the first time, indicating that probably for the first time the canards were utilized to perform unpredictable flight maneuvers _(previously used for course correction only perhaps)_, thereby giving the ability to confuse AB



The video shows both missiles being Fired at interval of about 6 seconds...
The burnout time seems to be about 10 seconds and the Launch Profile is angular in comparison to Indian Prahaar's vertical launch...

The Launch trajectory suggest a highly manoeuvrable Depressed/Quasi Ballistic Path..Such missile can follow many different types of trajectories and ABM will be extremely Difficult..

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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> Double Negation
> *A double negative occurs when two forms of negation are used in the same sentence
> *
> 
> so its imperative that you are saying



Sorry...couldn't resist.

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## Safriz

From the looks of it all 4 Missiles can be fired at different targets in less than 24 seconds....
There is no evidence of the Launch tubes being able to change Azimuth..So the guess is that all 4 missiles will be fired for the same general area.

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> From the looks of it all 4 Missiles can be fired at different targets in less than 24 seconds....


Nah, the video is cut between the two missile launches. The time interval between the consecutive launches is definitely more than 6 seconds.



> There is no evidence of the Launch tubes being able to change Azimuth..So the guess is that all 4 missiles will be fired for the same general area.


Good observation. 
Thats what the canards are for IMO. They can change the flight path, and could target a couple of kilometers away (sideways) from usual ballistic trajectory.

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## Irfan Baloch

Safriz said:


> From the looks of it all 4 Missiles can be fired at different targets in less than 24 seconds....
> There is no evidence of the Launch tubes being able to change Azimuth..So the guess is that all 4 missiles will be fired for the same general area.



their guidance system will take them to different paths once they are out of the tube and reached a certain elevation. they are not dumb rockets from MLRS.

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


>



   

Eik Pakistani eik Indian ko samjata hey,

" Tum paheley samja karo, har baat key dou matlab hotey hain"....

Indian jawab deta hey...."Fir nikal kar dikhaou". 

Pakistani kaheta hey..."Aub mein kiya tujey samjaou'n, iskey bi dou matlab hain". !!

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## Armstrong

ares said:


> For a country of 1200 million..10 million casualties will be an acceptable scenario if the other scenario involves the complete destruction.



No it isn't even a few thousand dead is a few thousand too many; considering that we've got nearly 200 million to spare we can loose a few million as well but we can't & neither can India ! Thankfully neither your military planner or civilian executive nor our military planners & the same, consider the loss of 10 million casualties as even remotely acceptable. 

And rest assured there isn't going to be a complete destruction of the other side with you guys only loosing 10 million people; I've reiterated enough times already that no one, least of all India, knows where all of our nuclear facilities are never mind our exponentially more mobile platforms. The 5-10 nuke figure that I gave was to impress upon you that even an absurdly low number of nukes is still one nuke too many. 



ares said:


> There is some serious flaw in the Pakistani thinking process here, if you think a Pakistani nuclear strike on Indian soldiers will not invite an Indian nuclear response on Pakistan.
> Now if Indian response is a proportional one, perhaps a Pakistani armored corps or nuclear weapons base.
> Pakistan will surely attack back with more nuclear weapons, this time on Indian soil..thus will begin process of gradual escalation in which major portion of both the countries will be destroyed.



Who said a Pakistani Nuclear response would not invite an Indian Nuclear Response ? But so will an Indian Nuclear Response invite a subsequent Pakistani Nuclear Response & in any event if most of our facilities are being targeted then most of India's facilities will be targeted conversely, to assume that somehow India would mobilize & then launch so many Nukes without Pakistan even getting a whiff of it is fantastic at best. 

That mutually assured destruction that was present on a strategic level has now been devolved to a division & perhaps a regimental level & that is precisely why there isn't going to be any wars fought between India & Pakistan in the future. 

India comes up with the Cold Start doctrine to thrust into Pakistan in multiple places in a small frame of time to punish us in case of a terrorist attack on India, allegedly, backed by Pakistan. 

Pakistan answer that by bringing into service tactical nukes, appears to be mass producing them & has them operational on highly mobile platforms that can traverse the length & breadth of Pakistan in a matter of hours. 

So the real question - Are we bluffing or not when we say that if your Cold Start is brought into motion we'd nuke the first Armored Division that crosses over into Pakistani territory overwhelming our lines ! 

Right now India has shown that it takes that bluff quite seriously ! If Kargil, if the Stand-Off or if Mumbai itself weren't reasons enough for India to cross over into Pakistan & punish us then god knows what the 'red lines'. 



ares said:


> Indian response of massive nuclear strike after the first Pakistani strike ensures, we directly jump to the last step ..so that number of Pakistani nukes launched on India are kept to the minimum.
> 
> Surely it is not ideal scenario..but its the best one India can get, if the war has already gone nuclear.



India's massive response isn't even a response in contention...heck its not even a bluff ! India can't even at the best of their performance hope to take out most of Pakistan's Nuclear Capabilities & she knows it. 

What is India going to do ? Launch SRBMS & MRBMS against Pakistan's launch sites ? How in God's name do you think Pakistan wouldn't have preempted such a response in case it does decide to use a tactical warhead ? How do think that India would be able to even mobilize all of that without Pakistan getting a whiff of it ? How do you account for, the 10th time, the many mobile launchers that Pakistan has got ? 

If its not the SRBMs & the MRBMs, is it going to be air-craft ? Do you think we've left our nukes out in the open without any air-defenses or air-cover whatsoever ? Without any hardened shelters ? Anything of the sort ? 




ares said:


> Policy of massive retaliation is not dissuade Pakistan from launching the second strike(which you will launch with whatever is left of your arsenal)..but dissuade Pakistan from first strike itself.



And the policy of Tactical & Miniaturized Nukes is to dissuade India from escalating the conflict to begin with ! If the Indian High Command is willing to find out whether Pakistan will target Indian FOBs in case our forward lines in some areas are run over, then be my guest; however, until, now both the Indian High Command & the Civilian Executive appear to consider the probable casualties of any such escalation far...far too high to even contemplate putting it to the test ! Thats a good enough deterrent for me.

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## Safriz

Neither Pakistan nor India is running a Nuclear missile program on the scale of Minute man Project when they Installed 1000 Megaton range ICBMs..
So please stop talking of "Total annihilation".

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## Armstrong

@Hyperion : Mein nei Suchhh kahaa ya nahin ?

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## Hyperion

Tumm hamesha sach kehtay ho. Daffa karo auron ko! 



Armstrong said:


> @Hyperion : Mein nei Suchhh kahaa ya nahin ?

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## Armstrong

@Irfan Baloch : *Irfan Bhai*, are there any functioning nuclear facilities at Chagai or was it just a one off thing ? 

And I was waiting for your reply in the G3 thread...aap ne koii ghaas hiii nahin dalliii mujhe naa cheez ko !

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## Safriz

Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

Look at the picture in this news report..

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## manojb

Safriz said:


> Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile | Pakistan | DAWN.COM
> 
> Look at the picture in this news report..



Pak media is obsessed with Prithvi missile

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## Irfan Baloch

Safriz said:


> Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile | Pakistan | DAWN.COM
> 
> Look at the picture in this news report..



I know

they post UAE F-16s with UAE flags on with reports of PAF jets "pounding" taliban positions.

thats the quality of our top News agency.. imagine the rest of the crowd. they are very keen to bring in disgruntled retired generals to talk about Pak army "blunders" but dont bother to check with someone with basic military knowledge that the images they are using are wrong

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## trident2010

Safriz said:


> Launch Profile is angular in comparison to Indian Prahaar's vertical launch...



Which one is better or advanced?


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## Peaceful Civilian

Congrats on this successful test.


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## Irfan Baloch

trident2010 said:


> Which one is better or advanced?



depends who you ask
lets say yours is better but ours rocks

its like

Jesus loves you but I am his favourite

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## Bratva

Irfan Baloch said:


> depends who you ask
> lets say yours is better but ours rocks
> 
> its like
> 
> Jesus loves you but I am his favourite


 

Aj to Baray mood may lag rahy hay,,,, Lagta bhabi maykay gaai hui hay


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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> I know
> 
> they post UAE F-16s with UAE flags on with reports of PAF jets "pounding" taliban positions.
> 
> thats the quality of our top News agency.. imagine the rest of the crowd. they are very keen to bring in disgruntled retired generals to talk about Pak army "blunders" but dont bother to check with someone with basic military knowledge that the images they are using are wrong



Same everywhere, there are very few journos employed who have any expertise when it comes to defence tech. In india only three in India I know of, rest all of them do similar errors all the time.


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## HRK

KRAIT said:


> When Iran is suspected of making Nuclear bomb, US, EU impose sanctions ?
> When North Korea test nuclear bomb, sanctions are increased ?
> 
> Now imagine what will world do if Pakistan uses nukes on India ?



Dear @KRAIT, if any time Pakistan finds herself in need to use nuke arsenal.........it would be time of her survival......survival at any cost....nobody will think of sanctions or world pressure at that time......

In fact any war b/w India and Pakistan is possible only after the failure of International community efforts at that time........I dont think International community will take side to any nation........because in post war scenario nothing would be left on both side which could attract the any Interest of world community.........they would left the us both........to suffer the consequences.......

Here people talk about nuke war so easily......Jasi MOLI WALE PARATE khane ke baad frat competition ho......


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## Bratva

AhaseebA said:


> Rawalpindi - February 11, 2013:



Don't know why but there is a weird resmemblance b/w Nasr and CM400 AKG


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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> Don't know why but there is a weird resmemblance b/w Nasr and CM400 AKG



There are no canards on CM-400AKG.

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## Bratva

AhaseebA said:


> There are no canards on CM-400AKG.



Hence the word resemblance. Shape of missile do look alike CM 400 AKG. Another weird fact is NASR was test fired in 2011 and CM 400 AKG was also rumored to be test fired in 2011. It was going to appear in Dubai 2011 Air show, but Chinese somehow decided not to disclose it at that time

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## Peaceful Civilian

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> Dear @KRAIT, if any time Pakistan finds herself in need to use nuke arsenal.........it would be time of her survival......survival at any cost....nobody will think of sanctions or world pressure at that time......
> 
> In fact any war b/w India and Pakistan is possible only after the failure of International community efforts at that time........*I don&#8217;t think International community will take side to any nation*........because in post war scenario nothing would be left on both side which could attract the any Interest of world community.........they would left the us both........to suffer the consequences.......
> 
> Here people talk about nuke war so easily......Jasi MOLI WALE PARATE khane ke baad frat competition ho......



I don't agree with the above bold Part, West countries never want to see us unite, If any table talk or conference happens in this stage, this will be just a showcase.
even in a war scenario between India and Pakistan, every country will jump here for their own interest. Those who want to see Asia in backward, they will only fuel the war to counter the challenges and to keep their superiority on this region.


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## Hyperion

_@All. Khudda ka naam lo yaro. Subha say harr koi "canards" parr lagga hua hai._ What's the relevance here? Maneuverability can be achieved a million different ways.

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## nwmalik

it good to read concern of our indian members about contamination of soil, water etc in our own country on use of NASR.

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## The Deterrent

Hyperion said:


> _@All. Khudda ka naam lo yaro. Subha say harr koi "canards" parr lagga hua hai._ What's the relevance here? Maneuverability can be achieved a million different ways.



Yes sir but there aren't no thrusters or flex nozzles on such small systems and jet vanes cannot provide that much performance specially after the boost phase. The tail fins are probably fixed.
So the additional control surfaces, be it fins on CM-400 or canards (  ) on Nasr are there for additional performance.

Aap samajhtay kyun nai, hamara missile barra _jadeed_ qisam ka hai

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## Hyperion

Now I understand the reason behind use of multiple adjectives in the press release... 



AhaseebA said:


> Yes sir but there aren't no thrusters or flex nozzles on such small systems and jet vanes cannot provide that much performance specially after the boost phase. The tail fins are probably fixed.
> So the additional control surfaces, be it fins on CM-400 or canards (  ) on Nasr are there for additional performance.
> 
> Aap samajhtay kyun hai, hamara missile barra _jadeed_ qisam ka hai

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## HRK

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I don't agree with the above bold Part, West countries never want to see us unite, If any table talk or conference happens in this stage, this will be just a showcase.
> 
> *even in a war scenario between India and Pakistan, every country will jump here for their own interest. Those who want to see Asia in backward, they will only fuel the war to counter the challenges and to keep their superiority on this region.*



My dear this is pre-war behaviour of International Community as they have their Interest to safe guard.....but you tell me what would be left after Nuclear War in this region........survivors of nuclear war would become unwanted liability to the world........


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## Green Angel

Congrats to all of us ,But Why our Scientist are not trying increase the range of NASR Missile or they are not disclosing Correct range.

I heard NASR 180km Last Year to be tested ............???????????


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Obviously you know that. But I assure you, an year from now, you will see your moron compatriots jumping around claiming that Nasr cannot be intercepted by the most advanced SaM systems of US, India & Israel, just because their dear ISPR told them so.
> 
> Coming to topic. Can you tell what does pakistan hopes to achieve by this missile. I always had the impression that Nasr was to stop Indian troops from invading pakistan, but how?
> 
> 60km is just shitty range. Most aircraft in the Indian can perform air interdiction very easily at that range(Even LCA, with only its current capabilities, without IOC). Even Rudra could take it for a ride. So most probably, the missile won't be fired at all.
> 
> Even if it is fired, maneuverability is not a big thing. All SAMS are designed to counter aircraft and cruise missiles, which are much more maneuverable than Nasr will ever be. The advantage with ballistic missile comes with its speed. *But since the range of the missile is too low*,* I doubt it will have a speed to challenge even the less advanced SAM systems*.
> 
> Even if the missile hits its target, it will be considered as a nuclear attack on India and we will take appropriate measures to respond(You know what I mean). So, my question. What does this missile give pakistan that it did not already posses?



The sheer idiocy dripping from your post can be summed up here.
If you read something called knowledge rather than just pretended to know it, you may realize that there is something called acceleration which is due to something called force. Rocket engines in their inherent nature tend to accelerate rather rapidly.

But since in your inherent nature as you have demonstrated you are hell bound to state that whatever Pakistan owns is useless..
Lets use a comparable system which is called the Prahaar to demonstrate.. It travels 150km within 250 seconds.. hence a SAM system has about 3 minutes.. so if any lowly SAM system such as the SPADA or even an Sa-7 can intercept Prahaar in that tiny window.. (perhaps systems like the Davids Sling may have a shot in case people with grey matter are reading this).then Prahaar too is a total piece of shyt.

But here's the thing, I can bet not a millisecond will pass and your haywired ideas will start cooking on how to defend prahaar and let down Pakistani SAM systems(which are inadequate anyway) just to somehow lift that tiny twirp ego up.
Because in the end, You are not here to talk sense but just to belittle Pakistan in every pointless trolling post possible.

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## The Deterrent

Green Angel said:


> Congrats to all of us ,But Why our Scientist are not trying increase the range of NASR Missile or they are not disclosing Correct range.



Because it _designed_ to be of that range. For greater ranges Pakistan already possesses other systems.


> I heard NASR 180km Last Year to be tested ............???????????



That was a rumor.

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## Peaceful Civilian

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> My dear this is pre-war behaviour of International Community as they have their Interest to safe guard.....but you tell me what would be left after Nuclear War in this region........survivors of nuclear war would become unwanted liability to the world........


, 
Those who have billions of investment here, they will save their interest first, etc withdraw their investments, peoples, then they will work for broader interest etc *Instability of Asia* that suits western nations. Asia region is gearing up for ful-fledged arms race. that doesn't suit their interest. etc


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## Contrarian

Armstrong said:


> So let me get this straight you're telling me that Nuking an Indian Armored Division would invite India nuking Lahore ?



No. Most likely response would be launching small nuclear weapons at the remaining Pakistani army bases along with the HQ of the brigade from which the Pakistani nuclear weapon was launched.

Step by step escalation in all likelihood.



Armstrong said:


> So let me get this straight you're telling me that Nuking an Indian Armored Division would invite India nuking Lahore ?



No. Most likely response would be launching small nuclear weapons at the remaining Pakistani army bases along with the HQ of the brigade from which the Pakistani nuclear weapon was launched.

Step by step escalation in all likelihood.



ANTIBODY said:


> Looks like a quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html



You are talking about Nasr. I was referring to CM400.

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## PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER

AhaseebA said:


> Yes sir but there aren't no thrusters or flex nozzles on such small systems and jet vanes cannot provide that much performance specially after the boost phase. The tail fins are probably fixed.
> So the additional control surfaces, be it fins on CM-400 or canards (  ) on Nasr are there for additional performance.
> 
> Aap samajhtay kyun nai, hamara missile barra _jadeed_ qisam ka hai


ok is this nasr missile "indegenously" developed by pakistan or is it the chinese m9/m11 missiles


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## Safriz

Pakistan is restricted by its Plutonium production capability and that may be the reason why they are going for smaller more efficient warheads...
India on the other hand can afford a few larger warheads.


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## Hyperion

Pakistan has plenty of plutonium. Safeguarded and otherwise. 



Safriz said:


> Pakistan is restricted by its Plutonium production capability and that may be the reason why they are going for smaller more efficient warheads...
> India on the other hand can afford a few larger warheads.

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## Mian H Amin.

well thats onyl 60km range ... we must do 2 things.
try to make them super sonic,
and try to make more long or med range missiles ..


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## Safriz

Hyperion said:


> Pakistan has plenty of plutonium. Safeguarded and otherwise.



Any idea how much?
India's 2004 estimate was 1 ton with 200kg per year production capacity.
2013 figures may be 2.5 tons for india.

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## Hyperion

India's safeguarded stockpile is 10 times of what you stated, and ours is 1/10th of that.

Don't go for simplistic explanation of what is produced at military facilities is the only source, also factor in their Power Generation units as well. All the side-product is stored on facilitates guarded by ten cameras and two occasional inspectors.

This is the true reason that we shall never EVER sign FMCT. FMCT pigeonholes you into a corner where they beat the drums that "OH NO" you can not buy the fuel from us, for XXXX reasons, and at the same time keep on supplying all the crap to India. India then keeps on storing the byproduct on site and whenever needed can declare that under such and such XYZ reasons, we took over the product for XYZ use.

The world is full of lies and more lies. 



Safriz said:


> Any idea how much?
> India's 2004 estimate was 1 ton with 200kg per year production capacity.
> 2013 figures may be 2.5 tons for india.

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## Manticore

Oscar said:


> The sheer idiocy dripping from your post can be summed up here.
> If you read something called knowledge rather than just pretended to know it, you may realize that there is something called acceleration which is due to something called force. Rocket engines in their inherent nature tend to accelerate rather rapidly.
> 
> .



It is this same reason the british went with a rocket engine fighter -- later a dual engine [one rocket engine and the other usual engine] fighter was made to save valuable fuel only--- the plane was not mass produced and the concept was turned down as LM paid the germans to buy their f104s instead of Saunders-Roe SR.53

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## Mitro

Nasr Tactical Missile is More psychological weapon system. Its Main reason is to counter Our Cold Start Doctrine.

Pakistan is very clear from day one that if we cross any of the threshold they will use their nuke e.g

1)The armed and military penetration of Indian Armed Forces into Pakistan on large scale
2)Complete destruction of PAF
3)economic strangulation and economic blackade
4)destabilization of pakistan [like Bangladesh civil war]

If we send our battle formation to pakistan we are crossing redline and i am sure we don't have any stupid politician to do that.
2001 standoff is the proof of that.

Pakistan Also Have MBRL to counter Tank regiment .by doing this test of tactical missile pakistan is reminding us not to thhink of crossing the border either for surgical strike or war.

Pakistan *Levels of Threshold*

The doctrine is not the part of the Minimum Credible Deterrence principle of Pakistan, however, the doctrine is integrated the nuclear dimension into its defence principle.[3] According to the sources (after being obtained from Pakistan's nuclear command authority) published by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), the definition of four potential thresholds has been refined in the form of four thresholds which were first mentioned by officials at the nuclear command authority in late 2001.[3]

Spatial Threshold[3]&#8212;&#8212; *The armed and military penetration of Indian Armed Forces into Pakistan on large scale may elicit a nuclearize massive retaliation, if and only if the Pakistan Army is unable to stop such intervention. For instance, many analysts, including some Indians, believe that the Indus Valley&#8212; the "lifeline" of Pakistan&#8212; is one of many other "red lines" that Indian forces should not cross. The capture of key objectives in this crucial northeast&#8211;southwest axis might well provoke nuclear retaliation by Pakistan.*
Military Threshold[3]&#8212;&#8212; The complete knockout or comprehensive destruction of a large part of Pakistan Armed Forces, particularly and most importantly the *Pakistan Air Force (PAF)*, could lead to a quick nuclear response if Islamabad believed that it was losing the cohesiveness of its defence and feared imminent defeat. A senior ranking PAF officer maintained that "orders given to PAF (and its missile command) are identical to the guidelines given to the NATO commanders during the Cold war crises. This criterion is even more important for the Pakistan Armed Forces because of its critical role in maintaining the country&#8217;s stability. As noted above, an attack on a nuclear installation has also been posited as a threshold. According to PAF, this level of threshold also included the chemical or biological weapons attack against Pakistan, would also respond to massive retaliation.[4]
Economic Threshold[3]&#8212;&#8212; This level implicitly and explicitly refers for the countermeasure operations of Pakistan Navy. The economic strangulation and economic blackade is also a potential threat to Pakistan, in which if Pakistan Navy is unable to counter it effectively (for example, see operations: Trident and Python in 1971). This primarily refers to a potential Indian Navy blockade of Sindh Province and coastal cities of Balochistan Province, or the stopping of the Indus water flow. It could also refer to the capture of vital arteries such as the Indus.
Political Threshold[3]&#8212;&#8212; Finally, Pakistan's geostrategist, game theorists and political strategists and planners suggest that a destabilization of the country by India could also be a nuclear threshold if Islamabad has credible proves to believe that the integrity of the country were at stake. Stated scenarios are political destabilization or large-scale internal destabilization in which if Pakistan Marines (along with other paramilitary command) are unable to stabilized it effectively. One example would be encouraging the breakaway of one or more Pakistan's provinces. (for example, see: the Bangladesh Liberation War)

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## Dazzler

naval missile canisters.............. 

Harpoon







Babur

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## Irfan Baloch

mafiya said:


> Aj to Baray mood may lag rahy hay,,,, Lagta bhabi maykay gaai hui hay



aap bhabi ko jantay to nahi?


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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=431939583547304

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## ares

Armstrong said:


> No it isn't even a few thousand dead is a few thousand too many; considering that we've got nearly 200 million to spare we can loose a few million as well but we can't & neither can India ! Thankfully neither your military planner or civilian executive nor our military planners & the same, consider the loss of 10 million casualties as even remotely acceptable.
> 
> And rest assured there isn't going to be a complete destruction of the other side with you guys only loosing 10 million people; I've reiterated enough times already that no one, least of all India, knows where all of our nuclear facilities are never mind our exponentially more mobile platforms. The 5-10 nuke figure that I gave was to impress upon you that even an absurdly low number of nukes is still one nuke too many.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said a Pakistani Nuclear response would not invite an Indian Nuclear Response ? But so will an Indian Nuclear Response invite a subsequent Pakistani Nuclear Response & in any event if most of our facilities are being targeted then most of India's facilities will be targeted conversely, to assume that somehow India would mobilize & then launch so many Nukes without Pakistan even getting a whiff of it is fantastic at best.
> 
> That mutually assured destruction that was present on a strategic level has now been devolved to a division & perhaps a regimental level & that is precisely why there isn't going to be any wars fought between India & Pakistan in the future.
> 
> India comes up with the Cold Start doctrine to thrust into Pakistan in multiple places in a small frame of time to punish us in case of a terrorist attack on India, allegedly, backed by Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan answer that by bringing into service tactical nukes, appears to be mass producing them & has them operational on highly mobile platforms that can traverse the length & breadth of Pakistan in a matter of hours.
> 
> So the real question - Are we bluffing or not when we say that if your Cold Start is brought into motion we'd nuke the first Armored Division that crosses over into Pakistani territory overwhelming our lines !
> 
> Right now India has shown that it takes that bluff quite seriously ! If Kargil, if the Stand-Off or if Mumbai itself weren't reasons enough for India to cross over into Pakistan & punish us then god knows what the 'red lines'.
> 
> 
> 
> India's massive response isn't even a response in contention...heck its not even a bluff ! India can't even at the best of their performance hope to take out most of Pakistan's Nuclear Capabilities & she knows it.
> 
> What is India going to do ? Launch SRBMS & MRBMS against Pakistan's launch sites ? How in God's name do you think Pakistan wouldn't have preempted such a response in case it does decide to use a tactical warhead ? How do think that India would be able to even mobilize all of that without Pakistan getting a whiff of it ? How do you account for, the 10th time, the many mobile launchers that Pakistan has got ?
> 
> If its not the SRBMs & the MRBMs, is it going to be air-craft ? Do you think we've left our nukes out in the open without any air-defenses or air-cover whatsoever ? Without any hardened shelters ? Anything of the sort ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the policy of Tactical & Miniaturized Nukes is to dissuade India from escalating the conflict to begin with ! If the Indian High Command is willing to find out whether Pakistan will target Indian FOBs in case our forward lines in some areas are run over, then be my guest; however, until, now both the Indian High Command & the Civilian Executive appear to consider the probable casualties of any such escalation far...far too high to even contemplate putting it to the test ! Thats a good enough deterrent for me.





Some question for you ..which if answered honestly will answer your own questions.

1) How much warning time will Pakistan get..In case a SSBN of the Pakistani coast launches multiple SLBMs on Pakistani Target.
Land based nuclear weapons are usually disassembled and kept in separate facilities to ward of accidental launched..but such is not the case with SLBMs.

2) A nuclear weapon exploding at what altitude will produce an EMP burst big enough to knock out electronic and communications through out Pakistan?How will your missile targeting systems work, if their chips are fried, how will relay the launch codes to mobile launchers if your microwave communication devices are down.

3) Since the entire scenario being discussed here is based on a assumption that India and Pakistan are already fighting a limited war ..what is the point of assuming ..that there will never be another limited war b/w India and Pakistan.

Offcourse you can argue ..that India leaders were mature enough not to declare an all out on Pakistan despite Parliament attack and 26/11 terrorist attacks.
But at same time, you do not account for Pakistani stupidity..after all Kargil war was initiated by Pakistan in a nuclear overhang.Nowhere does it say..that the war has to be initiated by India.

4) Suppose a limited war were to happen..and an Indian IBG or two would break through Pakistani lines...though not an existential threat to Pakistan...can/will Pakistan risk loosing its "free" first strike on a small tactical nuke...give India an opportunity to preempt further strikes...despite knowing the fact, if India were to follow through its declared nuclear doctrine and gives a disproportionate nuclear response..there would not be much of Pakistan left to fight back.

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## genmirajborgza786

KRAIT said:


> If he was from IIT, he might be student of my Prof.
> 
> University of Maryland is quite good in this research field. Indians work a lot in this field too.
> 
> Most of these war scenarios are simulated through various nonlinear equations and requires super computer to do so.
> 
> I can tell you an interesting research paper on Emotional Dynamics of Love explained by Nonlinear Equations and Butterfly effect. The author has used English literature for it.



"sensual" stimulation  _abay link bhej mujhe !_

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## Darth Vader

to all Indians PA created Nasr From their Money It has nothing 2 do with U till war begins So Now please Mind with ur business if it is a game changer well n good if It doesnt work still it has nothing 2 do with U its their money they can do wht they wana do Nice Work BY **** scientist Good LUCk and keep up the good work


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## KRAIT

genmirajborgza786 said:


> "sensual" stimulation  _abay link bhej mujhe !_


ScienceDirect.com - Applied Mathematics and Computation - Love dynamics: The case of linear couples

http://www.eos.tuwien.ac.at/OR/Mehl... Mathematics and Computation 1998 Rinaldi.pdf

digbib.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/volltexte/documents/783884



genmirajborgza786 said:


> "sensual" stimulation  _abay link bhej mujhe !_


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0096300397100819

http://www.eos.tuwien.ac.at/OR/Mehlmann/Andis/publ/math.space/Applied%20Mathematics%20and%20Computation%201998%20Rinaldi.pdf

digbib.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/volltexte/documents/783884

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## Armstrong

ares said:


> Some question for you ..which if answered honestly will answer your own questions.
> 
> 1) How much warning time will Pakistan get..In case a SSBN of the Pakistani coast launches multiple SLBMs on Pakistani Target.
> Land based nuclear weapons are usually disassembled and kept in separate facilities to ward of accidental launched..but such is not the case with SLBMs.
> 
> 2) A nuclear weapon exploding at what altitude will produce an EMP burst big enough to knock out electronic and communications through out Pakistan?How will your missile targeting systems work, if their chips are fried, how will relay the launch codes to mobile launchers if your microwave communication devices are down.



And somehow none of that can be conversely true ? As if the Indian High Command is the only one which has prepared for such eventualities & we'd be going on an hour to hour basis without any semblance of Standard Operating Procedures in case of any & all eventualities in case of a Nuclear War ?



ares said:


> 3) Since the entire scenario being discussed here is based on a assumption that India and Pakistan are already fighting a limited war ..what is the point of assuming ..that there will never be another limited war b/w India and Pakistan.



That whole scenario is what lends credence to the assertion that there isn't going to be an 'all out' war between Pakistan & India because of the costs that it would entail & the risks that both sides would have to take.



ares said:


> Offcourse you can argue ..that India leaders were mature enough not to declare an all out on Pakistan despite Parliament attack and 26/11 terrorist attacks.
> But at same time, you do not account for Pakistani stupidity..after all Kargil war was initiated by Pakistan in a nuclear overhang.Nowhere does it say..that the war has to be initiated by India.



I never said that India initiated a war & that goody goody euphemism 'mature restraint' is what lends credibility to my assertion that there isn't going to be an all out war between India & Pakistan in the future. Three times are more than enough to exemplify what I'm asserting. 



ares said:


> 4) Suppose a limited war were to happen..and an Indian IBG or two would break through Pakistani lines...though not an existential threat to Pakistan...can/will Pakistan risk loosing its "free" first strike on a small tactical nuke...give India an opportunity to preempt further strikes...despite knowing the fact, if India were to follow through its declared nuclear doctrine and gives a disproportionate nuclear response..there would not be much of Pakistan left to fight back.



There isn't going to be an over-run of anything during a limited war; if it remains localized to any one particular area than there is nothing to worry about. But then again there probably isn't going to be a limited war either because we've exhausted the possibility of that happening three times already. 

Furthermore because we're certain that India's Nuclear Doctrine isn't remotely enforceable that threat doesn't mean a thing; a disproportionate response would invite an equally disproportionate response. 

What makes you think that were Pakistan to use a tactical nuke to take out 1-2 Indian Corps that had broken through Pakistani lines would India be willing to strike back with about 3 dozen nukes & we'd just wait there waiting for a response so that we can reply back after you're done; I mean we should wait for our turn...its only fair to do that...right ? 

Well this isn't tennis ! If Pakistan decides to deploy a tactical nuke; it would be woefully naive of us to assume that somehow we wouldn't have enough contingencies in place to reply fitting in case a disproportionate Indian response is had !

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## HRK

KRAIT said:


> ScienceDirect.com - Applied Mathematics and Computation - Love dynamics: The case of linear couples
> 
> http://www.eos.tuwien.ac.at/OR/Mehl... Mathematics and Computation 1998 Rinaldi.pdf
> 
> digbib.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/volltexte/documents/783884
> 
> ScienceDirect.com - Applied Mathematics and Computation - Love dynamics: The case of linear couples
> 
> http://www.eos.tuwien.ac.at/OR/Mehl... Mathematics and Computation 1998 Rinaldi.pdf
> 
> digbib.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/volltexte/documents/783884



bhai abb samja bi dey......sub upper se Guzar gaya.....shuuuuuuuuuu....ker ke....

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## KRAIT

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> bhai abb samja bi dey......sub upper se Guzar gaya.....shuuuuuuuuuu....ker ke....


Bhai PhD material hai. Kaise samjhaun.

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## Irfan Baloch

Armstrong said:


> Well this isn't tennis ! If Pakistan decides to deploy a tactical nuke; it would be woefully naive of us to assume that somehow we wouldn't have enough contingencies in place to reply fitting in case a disproportionate Indian response is had !



bottom line for Indian internet warriors, stop fantasizing cold start.... there will be a "tactical warm welcome" waiting for those "cold starters" along with the full doze standing by

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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> bottom line for Indian internet warriors, stop fantasizing cold start.... there will be a "tactical warm welcome" waiting for those "cold starters" along with the full doze standing by


Sir,
India has no interest, or intention of attacking pakistan unilaterally. India does posses ability to fight back if attacked (irrspective of your generals thinking we a re a bunch of baniyaas shivering in our boots). Indian military and civilian government works in sync when there is external threat. Do not attack us, there will be no surdaji or cold start. Nuclear or conventional, we have enough ability to pay back with interest; the threat in their own coins. simple!


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## Safriz

Pakistan successfully test fires nuclear-capable Hatf-IX missile - Indian Express Mobile

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## Kompromat

@Irfan Baloch Cold start lies in Cold storage.

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## Water Car Engineer

Paan Singh said:


> There is no missile who cant be tracked.Those who claims about low fly bla bla,it comes at last stage not in earlier ones.
> Even brahmos is terrain hugging but in last stages not in earlier stage.
> 
> and india already have Prahaar version whose range is more than 150 km what pakistan is claiming here i.e tactical strike with small scale nukes



Prahaar was in response to Nasr, but I dont think it's even going to Army trials. Though it would be deadly to use those to bombard.


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## manojb

Safriz said:


> This one can dodge ABM



even Iron dome/david sling ?


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## Safriz

The thing is that if confronting armies want to make each others suffer in terms of loss of life.
They dont even need nuclear weapons..
60 million were killed by Mongols in 12th century,and mongols had no sophisticated weapons.
Same goes for Hutu and Tutsi of Ruwanda...they slaughtered each other for 100 days and death toll reached a million..and none had nuclear weapons..

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## Kompromat

Here we go.

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## tarrar

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Congrats......
> 
> 
> 
> Ever heard of a tactical nuke with a small yield? D"OH.......



No brother this fool have not heard of such technology because they believe in paint job, buy from Russia & paint it in Indian colors.


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## tarrar

Great achievement & a huge success. 

It is clearly said "*Additionally NASR has been specially designed to defeat all known Anti Tactical Missile Defence Systems*" but there are some Indian fools who are saying "we are buying iron dome from Israel & crap goes on.

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## SBD-3

Aside from local defence needs, what do you guys think about the export potential of the system? The system complies with MTCR regime since its range is less than 300KM. And more importantly, which countries would find interest in non-nuke version of this system.

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## Zarvan

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan conducted a successful test fire of Short Range to Surface Missile Hatf IX (NASR) on Monday, said a press release by Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).
The test fire was conducted with successive launches of two missiles from a state of the art multi-tube launcher. NASR, with a range of 60km, and in-flight manoeuvre capability can carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yield, with high accuracy, said the press release.
NASR has also been specially designed to defeat all known Anti-Tactical Missile Defence Systems.
The test was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Khalid Shameem Wynne, Director General Strategic Plans Division Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Muhammad Irfan Burney, Commander Army Strategic Forces Command Lieutenant General Tariq Nadeem Gilani, senior officers from the armed forces and scientists and engineers of strategic organisations.
Pakistan test fires Hatf IX missile: ISPR &#8211; The Express Tribune
Great job basically they have tested two missiles of same kind and main test was of that tube and it was a success good Job by Pakistan



Aeronaut said:


> Here we go.


 @Aeronaut please post the video

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## Safriz

Video on first page.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Honey india would be foolish to mass retaliate (unless india has a death wish)if we wipe out *ur* *divs* on our soil.............what makes *u* think *tht* Pak wont retaliate?



Mate, too much incomplete word and shortcut,,?? i.e "Ur, divs, u', tht"
Are you doing sms or chatting with friends on mobile ??


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## Contrarian

Irfan Baloch said:


> bottom line for Indian internet warriors, stop fantasizing cold start.... there will be a "tactical warm welcome" waiting for those "cold starters" along with the full doze standing by





Aeronaut said:


> @Irfan Baloch Cold start lies in Cold storage.



Disagree. There are many ways in which India can put punitive strikes on Pakistan in retaliation for terrorism regardless of Pakistan's tactical nukes.

And India is moving in exactly the direction it needs to for this purpose. The assets being acquired are exactly those with which these concepts can be implemented. As of now, the assets do not allow Indian military to implement what it wishes to, but they are going there quite steadily.

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## Kompromat

Contrarian said:


> Disagree. There are many ways in which India can put punitive strikes on Pakistan in retaliation for terrorism regardless of Pakistan's tactical nukes.
> 
> And India is moving in exactly the direction it needs to for this purpose. The assets being acquired are exactly those with which these concepts can be implemented. As of now, the assets do not allow Indian military to implement what it wishes to, but they are going there quite steadily.



India has no political will nor the military capability to attack and sustain a military operation inside Pakistani territory to achieve its objectives. India lives in an obsession, underestimating Pakistan's will to defend its citizens regardless of the costs will prove fatal for Indian warmongers like yourself.

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## Contrarian

Aeronaut said:


> India has no political will nor the military capability to attack and sustain a military operation inside Pakistani territory to achieve its objectives. India lives in an obsession, underestimating Pakistan's will to defend its citizens regardless of the costs will prove fatal for Indian warmongers like yourself.



The military capability is being built up. As I said, India is buying exactly the military equipment it needs. That process will likely take over a decade because Indian military is given small funding.

No one underestimates Pakistan Army's will to defend its citizens. But will alone doesnt win battles unless you have just come from a madrassa session and are high on rhetorics. Pakistan Army is starting to lag behind simply on account of India increasing its economy faster than Pakistan in a dedicated way over a sustained period of time.

And this trend doesnt seem to be changing in the near future as well.

By the way that said - I am not a war monger. But i do believe that Pakistan has to be punished in a multitude of ways for pushing terrorism in India. Pakistan Army has to be forcefully made to realize that pushing Global Jehad against others will bite it back. That India was not capable in 2008 was a glaring fact. And say in another decade, that may not necessarily be the case. Punishing does not always mean military, it can also be economic. There is a reason why India is pushing so hard for economic integration with Pakistan as well.

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## Kompromat

Contrarian said:


> The military capability is being built up. As I said, India is buying exactly the military equipment it needs. That process will likely take over a decade because Indian military is given small funding.



By the time India builds up Pakistan would build a deterrent, what would you do then, build more?



> No one underestimates Pakistan Army's will to defend its citizens.



No one should.




> But will alone doesnt win battles unless you have just come from a madrassa session and are high on rhetorics.



Ignoring your typical indian rant, i must stress that those madrassa student raped and wrecked a superpower and are wrecking another.



> Pakistan Army is starting to lag behind simply on account of India increasing its economy faster than Pakistan in a dedicated way over a sustained period of time.



Pakistan needs a deterent which will be in place, we have no plans to conquer India.



> And this trend doesnt seem to be changing in the near future as well.



We'll see.



> By the way that said - I am not a war monger.



I believe you are.



> But i do believe that Pakistan has to be punished in a multitude of ways for pushing terrorism in India.



And India doesn't push terrorism into Pakistan. Brilliant!..well good luck with that.



> Pakistan Army has to be forcefully made to realize that pushing Global Jehad against others will bite it back.



Good luck with that 2.0



> That India was not capable in 2008 was a glaring fact. And say in another decade, that may not necessarily be the case.



Grass seems always greener in the coming years. You are being, encircled as we speak, another decade you would be locked in.



> Punishing does not always mean military, it can also be economic.



India can't do anything to Pakistan economically except sending terrorists.



> There is a reason why India is pushing so hard for economic integration with Pakistan as well.



Dependency works both ways, we know Indian is a backstabber and we would keep our cards, we like to.

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## Windjammer

*Forget the commentary, enjoy the HD video. *

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## Contrarian

Aeronaut said:


> By the time India builds up Pakistan would build a deterrent, what would you do then, build more?


 I think you are deliberately being thick.

What did i say - the economy growing at a pace faster than Pakistan's over a sustained period of time. That means India adds much more than Pakistan does every passing year - disbalancing the equilibrium.


> Ignoring your typical indian rant, i must stress that those madrassa student raped and wrecked a superpower and are wrecking another.


That is because the super powers wanted occupation. India does not. India's objective is to destroy the Pakistani Army, not occupy territory. This is exactly what Cold Start is about. Its not about holding territory for negotiations. Its about destroying Pakistan's military by engaging in smaller units over a larger area rather than massed battles along with Pakistan's industrial infrastructure. If the madrassa students enter these zones - they are sure to find allah waiting in the after life.



> Pakistan needs a deterent which will be in place, we have no plans to conquer India.


Saying that Pakistan has no plans to conquer India is like saying Venezuela has no plans to conquer USA. Pakistan simply cannot.

Infact even if Pakistan along with every South Asian neighbour attacks India simultaneously, there would still be no credible threat to New Delhi. Indian military would beat them all - that is the extent of disparity.



> We'll see.


Keep seeing. Economy takes time to build up and get a momentum, highly unlikely to happen for Pakistan till 2020. By then India would have 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan.


> I believe you are.


Irrelevant is it not? The political leader in question may or may not be a dove. Manmohan for example is in love with Pakistan, was an absolute staunch dove. Other PM's may not be.


> And India doesn't push terrorism into Pakistan. Brilliant!..well good luck with that.


Well - we do now. Nothing however comes close to the infrastructure and money pumped in by Pakistan Army during the 90's. India is not even coming close to that.



> Grass seems always greener in the coming years. You are being, encircled as we speak, another decade you would be locked in.


By whom? China? Please, the String of Pearls that newspapers yell is an attempt to alarm the policy makers of India into getting confrontational with China. I would not be surprised that US is behind them. It was India - China animosity.

The only 2 places where India could have been worried about are clear - the Premier of SL has very unambiguously clarified to GoI that the Hambantota port - the ones Chinese are developing is strictly commercial and will remain so in the future under all circumstances. Further he has clarified that GoSL would not do anything that would jeopardize the security of India.

The other being BD. I hope you know that both the national parties of BD are tripping over each other to get into GoI's good books. The current PM of BD has already led to the best of relations enjoyed by India and BD probably after 1971. She herself is personally responsible for putting the final nail in the coffin of the NE Indian insurgencies!

Myanmar? We are building a port there! Only Pakistan remains? Do you think it matters? 

No one's encircling India. We already have a ring around Indian Ocean, from Oman to Maldives to Seychelles to Andaman Islands and now building a port in Myanmar.



> India can't do anything to Pakistan economically except sending terrorists.


Again, you are deliberately being thick. 

India is pushing very hard for economic integration with Pakistan. Pakistan is responding. Trade is increasing quite fast.
As soon as MFN is passed in Pakistan - Give it a decade, Pakistan will be in a tight economic embrace with India. 

THEN India will have the leverage for hurting Pakistan economically. We are moving towards that gradually.





> Dependency works both ways, we know Indian is a backstabber and we would keep our cards, we like to.


Whats with the rhetoric today?
'India is a backstabber'
'Dont underestimate Pakistan's will '

I dont see that happening. I dont see any cards. If MFN is signed, nature will take its own course here.

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## Malik Usman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Obviously you know that. But I assure you, an year from now, you will see your moron compatriots jumping around claiming that Nasr cannot be intercepted by the most advanced SaM systems of US, India & Israel, just because their dear ISPR told them so.
> 
> Coming to topic. Can you tell what does pakistan hopes to achieve by this missile. I always had the impression that Nasr was to stop Indian troops from invading pakistan, but how?
> 
> 60km is just shitty range. Most aircraft in the Indian can perform air interdiction very easily at that range(Even LCA, with only its current capabilities, without IOC). Even Rudra could take it for a ride. So most probably, the missile won't be fired at all.
> 
> Even if it is fired, maneuverability is not a big thing. All SAMS are designed to counter aircraft and cruise missiles, which are much more maneuverable than Nasr will ever be. The advantage with ballistic missile comes with its speed. But since the range of the missile is too low, I doubt it will have a speed to challenge even the less advanced SAM systems.
> 
> Even if the missile hits its target, it will be considered as a nuclear attack on India and we will take appropriate measures to respond(You know what I mean). So, my question. What does this missile give pakistan that it did not already posses?



Wooo....you just posted big paragraph without using your brain and reading complete information about this Missile.....didn't you read that Nassar is Land to Land Missile.....its not for land to air to destroy aircraft...........and the main purpose of it, to destroy enemy tanks, and create a hell for patrolling battalions.

Also did ever your DRDO claimed with international media that ever your missile was successful......expect their own claims and which always rejected by your ministry of defense and sometimes your own scientist come up with new stories denying completly about DRDO claims......


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## for truth

Aeronaut said:


> Ignoring your typical indian rant, i must stress that those madrassa student raped and wrecked a superpower and are wrecking another.



try to threaten the sovereignty of those super powers, issue a warning or declare war on those super powers and we will see who gets raped. they will bomb every inch of the land of pure to stone age, be thankful that Americans are not as arrogant as the Pakistani media makes it to be, if the Americans were after complete victory or dominance , they could have bombed every patch of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Pakistanis wouldn't even know what hit them. 

your entire military's pride and honor was raped during OBL raid.




Aeronaut said:


> Grass seems always greener in the coming years. You are being, encircled as we speak, another decade you would be locked in.



good luck with this classic brain fart.





Aeronaut said:


> India can't do anything to Pakistan economically except sending terrorists.



you are right ,India can do nothing to Pakistan's economy because Pakistani economy has already hit the rock bottom, it cannot be taken down any further.

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## SEAL

From the video it seems Nasr is super sonic like Brahmose.


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## HRK

Contrarian said:


> What did i say - the economy growing at a pace faster than Pakistan's over a sustained period of time. That means India adds much more than Pakistan does every passing year - disbalancing the equilibrium.





Contrarian said:


> Infact even if Pakistan along with every South Asian neighbour attacks India simultaneously, there would still be no credible threat to New Delhi. Indian military would beat them all - that is the extent of disparity





Contrarian said:


> Economy takes time to build up and get a momentum, highly unlikely to happen for Pakistan till 2020. By then India would have 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan.



Dear every single unit growth in Indian economy decreases the chance of full scale or limited war.........as no prosperous nation in modern history ever fought war on its own soil......and those who tried lost that war....... If somehow Indian Generals, in their insanity decided to have a war with any of its neighbour, that will be end of economic growth of India at least a for decade........I dont believe in India Army Generals are that powerfull....... 

*I would like to Qoute Sir Winston Churchill *

_*"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy or that anyone who embarks on that strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events incompetent or arrogant commanders, untrustworthy allies, hostile neutrals, malignant fortune, ugly surprise, awful miscalculations."
*_

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## Contrarian

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> Dear every single unit growth in Indian economy decreases the chance of full scale or limited war.........as no prosperous nation in modern history ever fought war on its own soil......and those who tried lost that war....... If somehow Indian Generals, in their insanity decided to have a war with any of its neighbour, that will be end of economic growth of India at least a for decade........I don&#8217;t believe in India Army Generals are that powerfull.......
> 
> *I would like to Qoute Sir Winston Churchill *
> 
> _*"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy or that anyone who embarks on that strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events&#8230; incompetent or arrogant commanders, untrustworthy allies, hostile neutrals, malignant fortune, ugly surprise, awful miscalculations."
> *_



War or any punitive measures will be wholly and solely decided by GoI, not the Indian Army. That is a preserve of the politicians of the day.

That said, India has a vested interest in making sure that Pakistan gives MFN to India and there are deep interlinkages between the economies.

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## notorious_eagle

Contrarian said:


> What did i say - the economy growing at a pace faster than Pakistan's over a sustained period of time. That means India adds much more than Pakistan does every passing year - disbalancing the equilibrium.



Off course India will add more, because it has a population that is almost 6 times bigger than Pakistan's. Pakistan needs to initiate reforms and grow on its own terms, it will act as a stabilizer for the region. Pakistan's growth is essential for the region because acts as a deterrent against the hegemonic designs of India. 



Contrarian said:


> That is because the super powers wanted occupation. India does not. India's objective is to destroy the Pakistani Army, not occupy territory. This is exactly what Cold Start is about. Its not about holding territory for negotiations. Its about destroying Pakistan's military by engaging in smaller units over a larger area rather than massed battles along with Pakistan's industrial infrastructure. If the madrassa students enter these zones - they are sure to find allah waiting in the after life.



Cold Start has been pretty much thrown on the back burner. PA has effectively nullified the Cold Start Doctrine with its superior mobilization, increased mechanization, increased emphasis on accuracy and a complete network centric warfare environment. Madrassa students don't need to enter the war zone as PA Armour is good enough to create a kill box for any advancing Indian Armour . Destroying Pakistan Army is just a wet dream that is being hypothesized in India for the last 60 years, so far it has failed. 

I think its time now that Indians come down back to Earth and stop living in this Utopian World. You need to stop pretending to be scary, because believe me you are not. You might scare Nepal, Bhutan or Bangladesh but you are certainly not scaring Pakistan here. After all this time, you should learn that India cannot bully or coerce Pakistan like it coerces her other neighbours. Even after these billions of dollars spent, India still lacks the muscle she requires to effectively disband Pakistan Army. 



Contrarian said:


> Saying that Pakistan has no plans to conquer India is like saying Venezuela has no plans to conquer USA. Pakistan simply cannot.
> 
> Infact even if Pakistan along with every South Asian neighbour attacks India simultaneously, there would still be no credible threat to New Delhi. Indian military would beat them all - that is the extent of disparity.



True, we don't have the logistics and the manpower to conquer Delhi but if push comes to shove, we do have the fire power with our 100 nukes to turn entire India into ash. None of the other South Asian countries possess this power, we don't want to fight a nuclear war but if our existence is threatened, we will take it to the next level. 



Contrarian said:


> Keep seeing. Economy takes time to build up and get a momentum, highly unlikely to happen for Pakistan till 2020. By then India would have 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan.



We are seeing, Musharraf was able to turn the economy around in 2 years and from a growth of 3% in 2002, it was growing at a rate of 8% in 2004. Anyone who is familiar with the Pakistani economy knows that growth of 6-7% is not hard for a country like Pakistan. Even in the midst of a civil war we are growing at a rate of 3.7%, and in the future it is only expected to go even up. Hopefully once this useless PPP Government is ousted, we will see better governance and economic growth. 



Contrarian said:


> Irrelevant is it not? The political leader in question may or may not be a dove. Manmohan for example is in love with Pakistan, was an absolute staunch dove. Other PM's may not be.



They may not, but once they see the reality they will also learn to fall in line. India lacks the muscle she requires to punish Pakistan, whatever damage India can cause Pakistan, Pakistan can reciprocate with exact ferocity. 



Contrarian said:


> Well - we do now. Nothing however comes close to the infrastructure and money pumped in by Pakistan Army during the 90's. India is not even coming close to that.



Believe me you have done enough, but don't worry as this drama on our Western borders come to an end, we will be freed up to deal with our real enemy. This free ride that India has enjoyed piggy backing on American effort will soon be over as the Americans leave. 



Contrarian said:


> By whom? China? Please, the String of Pearls that newspapers yell is an attempt to alarm the policy makers of India into getting confrontational with China. I would not be surprised that US is behind them. It was India - China animosity.
> 
> The only 2 places where India could have been worried about are clear - the Premier of SL has very unambiguously clarified to GoI that the Hambantota port - the ones Chinese are developing is strictly commercial and will remain so in the future under all circumstances. Further he has clarified that GoSL would not do anything that would jeopardize the security of India.
> 
> The other being BD. I hope you know that both the national parties of BD are tripping over each other to get into GoI's good books. The current PM of BD has already led to the best of relations enjoyed by India and BD probably after 1971. She herself is personally responsible for putting the final nail in the coffin of the NE Indian insurgencies!
> 
> Myanmar? We are building a port there! Only Pakistan remains? Do you think it matters?
> 
> No one's encircling India. We already have a ring around Indian Ocean, from Oman to Maldives to Seychelles to Andaman Islands and now building a port in Myanmar.



I think Indians should be nick named 'Spin Doctor's. 

You people are that thick headed that you fail to realize that you are effectively encircled. Pakistan has check mated you on your West and the Chinese have check mated you on your East and North. You might be building up a port in Myanmar but are you out investing the Chinese over there, not by a long shot. The Chinese will never tolerate increased Indian presence inside Burma. The only place where you can grow is to the sea, and that is why we can see the emphasis on building up the Indian Navy. 

As much as it pains me to say this but, the Chinese have played a grand stroke here. They have effectively blocked you from gaining access to Central Asia due to your belligerent attitude towards Pakistan, and they are in line to reap the rewards now. What you fail to realize is, the Chinese are your real competitors due to their size and proximity but they have effectively checked India through Pakistan by forcing the Indians to focus most of her military assets against Pakistan. India has realized this and that is why India despite all her set backs has a genuine desire to improve relations with Pakistan now. Its funny how geo-political turn of events make nations change their egoistic ways. 



Contrarian said:


> India is pushing very hard for economic integration with Pakistan. Pakistan is responding. Trade is increasing quite fast.
> As soon as MFN is passed in Pakistan - Give it a decade, Pakistan will be in a tight economic embrace with India.
> 
> THEN India will have the leverage for hurting Pakistan economically. We are moving towards that gradually.



Get over yourself. The only reason why India is succeeding in improving economic relations with Pakistan is because there is a genuine desire in Pakistan to improve relations with India. People in Pakistan have realized that improving relations with India is going to be beneficial for them because trade based on reciprocity will pay massive dividends to the Pakistani society. India can only dream of hurting Pakistan economically because the products that Pakistan imports from India are mostly low value added and can be easily substituted from other nations. India exports more to Pakistan than it imports, any halt in trade will be unfavourable to Indian traders and not Pakistani. 



Contrarian said:


> I dont see that happening. I dont see any cards. If MFN is signed, nature will take its own course here.



Keep dreaming, your not the US. You have a long way to go before you reach that stature.

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## Irfan Baloch

Aeronaut said:


> @Irfan Baloch Cold start lies in Cold storage.



looks like my post didnt go well.
while they want a free ride to boast about this start and that start but dont like the waiting response. 
its a nonstarter bickering any way

We are going to punish you with cold start

.. and no you cant use your short range ballistic missiles to stop us because they wont hurt us unless they are Nuclear tipped

.. and no we dont like you to use the nukes on our assaulting battle groups because then you will invite the wrath of our full scale nukes

...and no you cant match our cold start conventionally because you dont have the men and material to do so, so you got no choice but to accept our awesomeness just like General Havoc & Lord Zedd submitted to the awesomeness of power rangers

.. well actually you should disband your army and throw your nukes in the sea so that we harass you with our BSF day and night like we do to your former eastern "liberated" part day and night.

..and next time you shouldnt test any more tactical missiles because that screws up all of our hype and tempo we build for our cold start. you are really party spoilers. 

...you do the maths, if you try to stop our cold start and vaporize our forces then it has to be only done with nuclear because our soldiers are immune to all conventional weapons and wear TX-5000 turbo charged phantom shield plated armour which no conventional weapon can penetrate. or forget it dont do the maths because we invented the maths.

...and no, just stop talking and let us bully you with cold start and dont scare us with your big "pola/ liter ( &#1662;&#1608;&#1604;&#1575; / &#1604;&#1578;&#1585; ) because pretty much soils everything. so you cant use any form of the nuclear weapons because we will too and we will both die and its not right so just let us attack.

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## Contrarian

notorious_eagle said:


> Off course India will add more, because it has a population that is almost 6 times bigger than Pakistan's. Pakistan needs to initiate reforms and grow on its own terms, it will act as a stabilizer for the region. Pakistan's growth is essential for the region because acts as a deterrent against the hegemonic designs of India.


I think you went on a tangent. Because India has a population 6 times bigger does not mean that the percentage growth rate of India will be more than Pakistan! I hope you get this logic.

India has a higher growth *rate* than Pakistan. India has a higher growth rate than Pakistan because the economic fundamentals of India are sound, unlike Pakistan's. 

This gives more resources to India compared to Pakistan each year, year on year. This creates disparity, and will show huge differences over sustained periods of time - like a decade!

Pakistan's growth or lack of it makes no difference to any other South Asian state as Pakistan is not connected to anyone barring Afghanistan. And we all know how much a stabilizing influence Pakistan has been in Afghanistan!



> Cold Start has been pretty much thrown on the back burner. PA has effectively nullified the Cold Start Doctrine with its superior mobilization, increased mechanization, increased emphasis on accuracy and a complete network centric warfare environment. Madrassa students don't need to enter the war zone as PA Armour is good enough to create a kill box for any advancing Indian Armour . Destroying Pakistan Army is just a wet dream that is being hypothesized in India for the last 60 years, so far it has failed.


Well, India did succeed in splitting up Pakistan quite successfully. We reap many benefits because of that today. So i dont hear the '60 year try' as a fail.

Pakistan will always have superior mobilization because of Pakistan's geography. Having very low depth and longer length essentially means its easy for Pakistan Army to dash to the border.

What it does not mean is that India's investment in its economy and military will mean that simply running to the border would mean that they field better equipment. India spending on its military over the decades has meant that today Pakistan is in no position to even launch a limited incursion in India. And while it means status quo right now, the same trends that have made Pakistani Army from an offensive or even a limited offensive force to an entirely defensive force, have not stopped. The same trends continue - Pakistan stuck in an economic doldrums while India keeps adding. 

I hope you understand this point, and that India is adding forces in a manner that Pakistan cannot even match in technology, let alone being able to match in weapon for weapon. And these trends will only intensify, not weaken.



> I think its time now that Indians come down back to Earth and stop living in this Utopian World. You need to stop pretending to be scary, because believe me you are not. You might scare Nepal, Bhutan or Bangladesh but you are certainly not scaring Pakistan here. After all this time, you should learn that India cannot bully or coerce Pakistan like it coerces her other neighbours. Even after these billions of dollars spent, India still lacks the muscle she requires to effectively disband Pakistan Army.


India cannot force Pakistan to disband its Army. That is not possible. Why would India want that. We want a pliable Pakistan. And that is slowly happening.

Do you know that when Pakistan wanted concessions on textiles from Europe, India had to give the final nod? Without India giving this to Pakistan, EU would not have agreed? These is but an instance of where things are headed. Do you hear Pakistani leaders talking about putting Kashmir on the backburner and going more for trade?

Why was it that before this, Pakistani leaders NEVER said that Kashmir should be put on the back burner, and trade would only come after Kashmir was solved. This is India getting what it wants from Pakistan - slowly - without using military means. 

Or that Pakistan was totally against marking AGPL in Siachen while asking India to withdraw. What happened? If you are connected you would know that Pakistan has now agreed to sign the AGPL!

You might like to believe that Pakistan is absolutely immune from Indian pressure, but the truth is that Pakistan is gradually becoming susceptible to Indian pressure. Give it another decade, you will see the manifestation of the trends right now.



> True, we don't have the logistics and the manpower to conquer Delhi but if push comes to shove, we do have the fire power with our 100 nukes to turn entire India into ash. None of the other South Asian countries possess this power, we don't want to fight a nuclear war but if our existence is threatened, we will take it to the next level.


Take it to any level you want. If it comes to a shooting match, Pakistan Army is going to be pummeled badly. Much more so than IA. Nukes donot give you any cover. Otherwise there is much that should not be happening in Pakistan, yet it is.



> We are seeing, Musharraf was able to turn the economy around in 2 years and from a growth of 3% in 2002, it was growing at a rate of 8% in 2004. Anyone who is familiar with the Pakistani economy knows that growth of 6-7% is not hard for a country like Pakistan. Even in the midst of a civil war we are growing at a rate of 3.7%, and in the future it is only expected to go even up. Hopefully once this useless PPP Government is ousted, we will see better governance and economic growth.


Would you like me to give very comprehensive links on how many Pakistani experts say that the statistics that were coming out from Pakistan under Musharraf were nothing less than falsifications? Or that international agencies were also questioning the credibility of Pakistani stats?

While you can hope and dream, I donot see Pakistani economy coming back up before 2020. And that gives India over 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan.




> They may not, but once they see the reality they will also learn to fall in line. India lacks the muscle she requires to punish Pakistan, whatever damage India can cause Pakistan, Pakistan can reciprocate with exact ferocity.


Really? Pakistan can not reciprocate with the exact ferocity is exactly the point. Unless Pakistan jumps straight to the nukes, Pakistan is starting to lag behind in the arms race. Its capacity to dish out is not equal to what it will recieve in a shooting war.


> You people are that thick headed that you fail to realize that you are effectively encircled. Pakistan has check mated you on your West and the Chinese have check mated you on your East and North. You might be building up a port in Myanmar but are you out investing the Chinese over there, not by a long shot. The Chinese will never tolerate increased Indian presence inside Burma. The only place where you can grow is to the sea, and that is why we can see the emphasis on building up the Indian Navy.


Notorious Eagle, research before you talk. India has enormous influence in Myanmar. While you hope that Chinese will never 'Indian presence in Burma' the fact is that India already has considerable influence in Burma. The Generals of Myanmar are now very very wary of China, and coupled with the fact that India is now providing arms to Burma - in defiance of EU laws - like the British Islander surveillance plane, among trucks, tanks, arty, coupled with Syu Ki's release and active participation in Burma - we are second only to China and not too far behind.

As for our coup -de -grace , it has been India who arranged the meeting between Hillary Clinton and Burma, effectively adding US on India's side in supporting Myanmar which also effectively ended Myanmar's isolation from the West.

*Our East is wide open* to our influence and route. BD and Myanmar are both under very high levels of Indian influence. India is building a port and road from that port to our NE. So before you rant on how China will deny us anything, read beforehand on those countries.



> As much as it pains me to say this but, the Chinese have played a grand stroke here. They have effectively blocked you from gaining access to Central Asia due to your belligerent attitude towards Pakistan, and they are in line to reap the rewards now. What you fail to realize is, the Chinese are your real competitors due to their size and proximity but they have effectively checked India through Pakistan by forcing the Indians to focus most of her military assets against Pakistan. India has realized this and that is why India despite all her set backs has a genuine desire to improve relations with Pakistan now. Its funny how geo-political turn of events make nations change their egoistic ways.


The only place, where we lack physical access is Central Asia. 

And do you know why? Its not because of China. China has no capacity to block us.

*It is because of US*. What we need from Central Asia is resources. And contrary to what you believe, it is not feasible to bring heavy metals all the way from Afghanistan and Central Asia via a rail line through Pakistan. These things need ports for metal evacuation considering the distance.

And as long as US continues to isolate Iran, we cannot access those minerals. The day US stops imposing sanctions on Iran, our route to Central Asia is wide open!

And as for as military assets go. You realize that a fight for survival with China is not possible. We have the mountains up north which remove any possibility of massed war. The only pockets are in East and North. 

And India's new procurements in the last 2 -3 years are all geared towards China. That even includes the Apaches! The gunships that would have been most handy in destroying Pakistani armour, they are going to be stationed in the East. That should give you more than a clue.



> Get over yourself. The only reason why India is succeeding in improving economic relations with Pakistan is because there is a genuine desire in Pakistan to improve relations with India. People in Pakistan have realized that improving relations with India is going to be beneficial for them because trade based on reciprocity will pay massive dividends to the Pakistani society. India can only dream of hurting Pakistan economically because the products that Pakistan imports from India are mostly low value added and can be easily substituted from other nations. India exports more to Pakistan than it imports, any halt in trade will be unfavourable to Indian traders and not Pakistani.


This is a classic case. Pakistan does not import high value goods from India because of restrictions. The day MFN is granted and trade thrown wide open without restrictions, within a decade Pakistan would be importing all kinds of high value and high technology products from India.

This is exactly the reason why Pakistan Army has stopped Pakistan from trading with India without restrictions till date. They realize this. 

However, what do you think has made Pakistani people and politicians feel that trade with India would better their lives and country? They didnt feel this before for 60 years, why now?
Its because they see and hear from newspapers and first hand, that India is growing fast, India is bettering itself. Had India not been economically growing, there would have been no change from what Pakistani's - public and polity - thought as before.

Do you see a 360 degree effect that India growing economically is having on Pakistan. Do 




> Keep dreaming, your not the US. You have a long way to go before you reach that stature.



India is not the US. We are trying to grow.
Do you see a 360 degree effect that India growing economically is having on Pakistan. Do you realize that Pakistan Army is already under severe stress in letting go the amount of budget it takes from Pakistan for just maintaining the current lopsided balance? A balance in which Pakistan Army cannot even execute limited incursions in India, that they did in the 65 as well as 71 wars? 
Indian military today enjoys equipment and resources that PA can no longer fight in Indian territory.

And yet, India continues to grow more - put more money in economy, infrastructure as well as military. Putting even more pressure on PA to not let go of the ridiculously high percentage of budget it takes from Pakistan's national budget. You are caught in a classic bind. And we are pulling much further ahead of you.

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## HRK

Contrarian said:


> *War or any punitive measures will be wholly and solely decided by GoI*, not the Indian Army. That is a preserve of the politicians of the day.
> 
> That said, India has a vested interest in making sure that Pakistan gives MFN to India and there are deep inter linkages between the economies.



Dear that is my point.......In India Democracy have its root because......Indian politicians have shown some maturity in this regards.......so my point is.....as far as political leadership at both side remain intact.......war is not very much possible.......*theses missiles, tanks and jets are more like fancy toys.......which are although necessary in International Political scenario......for status symbols.....*

MFN status to India will not be a holocaust type thing to Pakistani economy our Financial manager are enough for this.......even today we can buy *KUM KUM KI CHORIA, some other star ki sari from local market* and China is already enjoying this status......dear for economic frontier it will be beneficial for both or vice verse......e.g IPI project.......

On a side note Peace and stability in Afghanistan and working relationship with Pakistan is much needed thing for Indian economic growth at least for next 2 decades..........India is progressing it is a good thing for region..........but if war breakout......India will suffer more it will be like Suzuki Mehran or Mercedes ki collision me Mehran pori khatam bi ho jay......Mager Mercedes ke monetary and status nuqsan zada hoga........

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## Contrarian

I agree with all that you say. However terrorism emanating from Pakistani soil is major point of concern and for all practical purposes the only point of concern.

Pakistan cannot wash its hand off terrorists who end up in other countries by saying they are 'non state actors'. Sovereignty comes with responsibility. And to that end, Pakistani Govt has to make sure that PA stops its links with terrorist groups.


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## HRK

Contrarian said:


> I agree with all that you say. However terrorism emanating from Pakistani soil is major point of concern and for all practical purposes the only point of concern.
> 
> Pakistan cannot wash its hand off terrorists who end up in other countries by saying they are 'non state actors'. *Sovereignty comes with responsibility*. And to that end, Pakistani Govt has to make sure that PA stops its links with terrorist groups.



Dear the word Terrorism is it self so ambiguous......I believe you know it better this word came in use after 9/11......
Kya us se phele ya sub nahi hota tha....??........... American, Indians, Russian.....all were involve in it when and where this thing suited to them......so Why to blame Pakistan only......Is liya ke *KAMZOOR KI JOOROO SUB KI BHABI*.....I will not go in Bangladesh & Mukti Bhani discussion........rather would say....

It was done by evey nation at the time when it was necessary for their Interest......then they decrease the intensity of it with the passage of time as it suited to them.......

If some thing was done against Pakistan by India....or Pakistan done against India....was in accordance to the situation of the region and world political environment..........*NOBODY CAN BLAME ANYBODY AS NO ONE IS PAVITTAR* 

Now regional and International situation does not permit theses tactics any more.........


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## Secur

ares said:


> It will be suicidal for Pakistan to hope that, use battlefield Nukes on Indian division(even on Pakistani soil) will not invite a full scale nuclear retaliation.



So , they are ready to risk the lives of a billion Indians just for a couple of invading IBG's ? I never got any rational answer to that ...


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## Safriz

Secur said:


> So , they are ready to risk the lives of a billion Indians just for a couple of invading IBG's ? I never got any rational answer to that ...



don't take armchair generals too serious..They want to fight an Armageddon on everything...

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## pakistanitarzan

Secur said:


> So , they are ready to risk the lives of a billion Indians just for a couple of invading IBG's ? I never got any rational answer to that ...



I dont think Pakistan will use smaller nukes to wipe out IBG. Pakistan will think 100 times before even using a smaller nuke embedded in a short range missile. Thinkn about the consequences man, one thing leads to another and the cycle keeps repeating. Once Pakistan uses portable nuke to wipe out Invading Indian Army then it will only lead to a full nuclear war and major cities in Pakistan and India being destroyed!


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## Secur

Contrarian said:


> And to that end, Pakistani Govt has to make sure that PA stops its links with terrorist groups.



First prove that they exist ,dear 

On a more serious note , all Intelligence agencies of the world are involved in acts of non human and non moral nature ... Just learn how the CIA has engineered so many regime changes in the world ...



Safriz said:


> don't take armchair generals too serious..They want to fight an Armageddon on everything...



Then perhaps they should know the consequences , my friend 



pakistanitarzan said:


> Thinkn about the consequences man, one thing leads to another and the cycle keeps repeating.



Nukes are last resort options , brother so unless and until they dont cross the border or specially any threshold , no one needs fear ... Do it , all hell breaks loose ...

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## pakistanitarzan

Secur said:


> First prove that they exist ,dear
> 
> On a more serious note , all Intelligence agencies of the world are involved in acts of non human and non moral nature ... Just learn how the CIA has engineered so many regime changes in the world ...
> 
> 
> 
> Then perhaps they should know the consequences , my friend
> 
> 
> 
> Nukes are last resort options , brother so unless and until they dont cross the border or specially any threshold , no one needs fear ... Do it , all hell breaks loose ...



but crossing border is not anywhere in the last stage. Last stage is like if Indian army has penetrated deeply within pakistan! Pakistan army will never use nukes at an early stage in the war


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## Secur

pakistanitarzan said:


> but crossing border is not anywhere in the last stage. Last stage is like if Indian army has penetrated deeply within pakistan! Pakistan army will never use nukes at an early stage in the war



What do you know of the geography of Pakistan ?  ... Yes , nobody's using nukes just because IA have started crossing the border , that is the opinion of neighboring country's fanboys here , not ours ! They can keep underestimating our conventional strength , we do not mind honestly , its not like that PA cant fight without nuclear weapons ...

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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> If they use one nuke, World will take away their nukes. Guaranteed.



The real question is " Does World even have the power to do so ? " ... If so , then why do I see North Korea and Iran in the nuclear power countries category even now 



AhaseebA said:


> *For the 6th God Forsaken time, the purpose of Nasr is being discussed.*



to *ad nauseam* , commendatore ... 

But , what to do of some people ?

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## KRAIT

@Secur Well they ave so many Economic Sanctions ? Do you want one in this state of your economy ?

And please don't say that you flourish in Sanctions.

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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> And please don't say that you flourish in Sanctions.



Actually we do  ... Imposing economic sanctions will not deter any nation to defend itself nor will it force it to hand over its nukes ...  That time will be well past in the scenario being discussed ...
_
I make my own home " be my gallows " - Hannibal Lecter_

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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> Actually we do  ... Imposing economic sanctions will not deter any nation to defend itself nor will it force it to hand over its nukes ...  That time will be well past in the scenario being discussed ..._
> I make my own home " be my gallows " - Hannibal Lecter_


Actually as economic conditions worsen, it affects social security. And that prepares a field for many threats. 

Even if they don't take nukes, will it be worth having the sanctions ?

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## notorious_eagle

Contrarian said:


> I think you went on a tangent. Because India has a population 6 times bigger does not mean that the percentage growth rate of India will be more than Pakistan! I hope you get this logic.
> 
> India has a higher growth *rate* than Pakistan. India has a higher growth rate than Pakistan because the economic fundamentals of India are sound, unlike Pakistan's.
> 
> This gives more resources to India compared to Pakistan each year, year on year. This creates disparity, and will show huge differences over sustained periods of time - like a decade!



And i believe you did not understand what i said. 1% economic growth for India adds more in terms of total amount compared to Pakistan's 1% growth. India has only outpaced Pakistan in her economic growth for the last 1.5 decade, before that Pakistan consistiently outpaced India. Right now the difference between the economic growth is only 2%, also please consider the factor that Pakistan is going through a severe crisis with governance and security related problems. As these problems die down in the next couple of years, economic growth for Pakistan will roar back into 7-8%. 



Contrarian said:


> Pakistan's growth or lack of it makes no difference to any other South Asian state as Pakistan is not connected to anyone barring Afghanistan. And we all know how much a stabilizing influence Pakistan has been in Afghanistan!



It does, it provides a counter weight to India's hegemony. Pakistan is the only country that is in the way of India becaming a regional hegemonic power in South Asia. Ignoring your back handed slap regarding Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan, it was quite stable after a long time but the equilibrium was tarnished after NATO lead invasion. I will refrain from commenting on India's overt and covert role in stirring up trouble in Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc. 



Contrarian said:


> Well, India did succeed in splitting up Pakistan quite successfully. We reap many benefits because of that today. So i dont hear the '60 year try' as a fail.



Not really, you allowed your enemy to concentrate his forces on one front instead of splitting them up in two taking into account his inferior numbers. 



Contrarian said:


> Pakistan will always have superior mobilization because of Pakistan's geography. Having very low depth and longer length essentially means its easy for Pakistan Army to dash to the border.



Excellent, thus the entire premise behind the CSD to mobilize before Pakistan mobilizes and catch Pakistan off guard is pretty much defeated. 



Contrarian said:


> What it does not mean is that India's investment in its economy and military will mean that simply running to the border would mean that they field better equipment. India spending on its military over the decades has meant that today Pakistan is in no position to even launch a limited incursion in India. And while it means status quo right now, the same trends that have made Pakistani Army from an offensive or even a limited offensive force to an entirely defensive force, have not stopped. The same trends continue - Pakistan stuck in an economic doldrums while India keeps adding.



Why would Pakistan want to lead an incursion into India when it can cause more damage to India from stand off ranges. Precision Guided Munitions and Cruise Missiles can cause more damage than sending in a Brigade to do the job. The only reason why PA in the past considered the idea of limited incursions into India because that was the only way to cause damage inside India. Our aircrafts in the past lacked the legs to strike deep inside India and cause considerable amount of damage. That disadvantage has been nullified with the addition of considerable arsenal of stand off weapons that Pakistan has accumulated in the last 2 decades. 



Contrarian said:


> I hope you understand this point, and that India is adding forces in a manner that Pakistan cannot even match in technology, let alone being able to match in weapon for weapon. And these trends will only intensify, not weaken.



Pray tell me, what force are you talking about because i have been closely following India's military build up and nothing suggests to me that Pakistan is outgunned. The only thing that i was terrified off were the 40 Smerch Batteries that IA acquired, it allowed IA to crush any mass formations of PA Armour from stand off ranges. Now that A-100 system has come online now with PA, it gives PA the ability to open the Smerch system for counter battery. But overall, i don't see any system with India right now that can deliver India the slam dunk she requires. As i said before, stop trying to be scary because you are not. 



Contrarian said:


> India cannot force Pakistan to disband its Army. That is not possible. Why would India want that. We want a pliable Pakistan. And that is slowly happening.



Off course you want that, everyone of your strategic planners who retire have stated this over and over again that PA needs to be disbanded. The only force that is standing in the way of IA becaming the sole hegemonic power of the region is PA. 



Contrarian said:


> Do you know that when Pakistan wanted concessions on textiles from Europe, India had to give the final nod? Without India giving this to Pakistan, EU would not have agreed? These is but an instance of where things are headed. Do you hear Pakistani leaders talking about putting Kashmir on the backburner and going more for trade?



Off course, consensus of India would be required or else it would have been plain discriminatory. As i said stop acting scary, this decision had nothing to do with your diplomatic or economic weight but more to do with equality.



Contrarian said:


> Why was it that before this, Pakistani leaders NEVER said that Kashmir should be put on the back burner, and trade would only come after Kashmir was solved. This is India getting what it wants from Pakistan - slowly - without using military means.



It more has to do with the fact that Pakistan has realized that Kashmir cannot be won through a military duel due to the terrain and topography of the area. The only way forward for an amicable settlement is through a dialogue, it has nothing to do with Indian clout. But using your analogy, if India has succeeded here, how come it has failed to force Pakistani leaders to deport Hafiz Saeed to India? Looks like the Indian clout failed here, as i said before your not scary. 



Contrarian said:


> Or that Pakistan was totally against marking AGPL in Siachen while asking India to withdraw. What happened? If you are connected you would know that Pakistan has now agreed to sign the AGPL!



Same reason as Kashmirs, lack of ability to settle this through a military duel. 



Contrarian said:


> You might like to believe that Pakistan is absolutely immune from Indian pressure, but the truth is that Pakistan is gradually becoming susceptible to Indian pressure. Give it another decade, you will see the manifestation of the trends right now.



And pigs would fly, your just picking out straws to strenghten your flawed arguments. If Indian pressure was making Pakistan back off, believe me there are a lot more things India would have made Pakistan do. 



Contrarian said:


> Take it to any level you want. If it comes to a shooting match, *Pakistan Army is going to be pummeled badly*. Much more so than IA. Nukes donot give you any cover. Otherwise there is much that should not be happening in Pakistan, yet it is.



Heard this Indian Utopian Dream many times. Haven't you guys learned anything after the stand off in 2001 and 2008, PA is at best immune from a strike from IA as it was demonstrated twice in these two cases. PA called out IA's bluff twice and mobilized, in these cases the IA was red faced and made to look powerless against PA. 



Contrarian said:


> Would you like me to give very comprehensive links on how many Pakistani experts say that the statistics that were coming out from Pakistan under Musharraf were nothing less than falsifications? Or that international agencies were also questioning the credibility of Pakistani stats?



As they say, there is synthesis and antithesis. There are many who claim that stats were falsified but there are also many whom say that stats were not falsified. The stock market went through the roof, companies were producing record profits and consumption levels multiplied by almost 400 times. We living here in Pakistan saw the fruits of the economic development, never in my life did i ever see that much money in Pakistan as i saw it during Musharraf's term. 



Contrarian said:


> While you can hope and dream, I donot see Pakistani economy coming back up before 2020. And that gives India over 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan.



Well than keep dreaming my friend, time will be the decider. 



Contrarian said:


> Really? Pakistan can not reciprocate with the exact ferocity is exactly the point. Unless Pakistan jumps straight to the nukes, Pakistan is starting to lag behind in the arms race. Its capacity to dish out is not equal to what it will recieve in a shooting war.



No offense, but dude you guys try soo had to be scary that we have reached a point that we don't get scared at all. It could be India's close assocation with the Soviets or the Israelis taking an affect on Indian psyche, i dunno. If what you claim was true, your forces would have launched punitive strikes against the so called 'terrorist camps'. Or, after the so 'alleged beheading' of Indian soldiers, IA would have immediately responded with massive fire power and levelled PA positions something similar to what the Israelis did after one of their soldiers was kidnapped by Hezbollah in 2006. That did not happen, i am a true believer of an old saying 'Actions speak louder than words'. 



Contrarian said:


> Notorious Eagle, research before you talk. India has enormous influence in Myanmar. While you hope that Chinese will never 'Indian presence in Burma' the fact is that India already has considerable influence in Burma. The Generals of Myanmar are now very very wary of China, and coupled with the fact that India is now providing arms to Burma - in defiance of EU laws - like the British Islander surveillance plane, among trucks, tanks, arty, coupled with Syu Ki's release and active participation in Burma - we are second only to China and not too far behind.



Excellent and my sincere commendations for all that, but China still leads the race and is the largest patron of the Burmese Government. You still fail to understand what i said, you cannot grow on your East because the Chinese have blocked you over there. Building one port isn't enough, you lack the logistics. 



Contrarian said:


> As for our coup -de -grace , it has been India who arranged the meeting between Hillary Clinton and Burma, effectively adding US on India's side in supporting Myanmar which also effectively ended Myanmar's isolation from the West.



Time will be the judge



Contrarian said:


> *Our East is wide open* to our influence and route. BD and Myanmar are both under very high levels of Indian influence. India is building a port and road from that port to our NE. So before you rant on how China will deny us anything, read beforehand on those countries.



Predicting about the future and looking at the current trends is a whole different ball game. Once India is fully set to expand in the East, i will retract my statement but as of now i won't. When the roads are built, the port gets busy and trucks start moving on those newly built roads, we will talk. 



Contrarian said:


> The only place, where we lack physical access is Central Asia.
> 
> And do you know why? Its not because of China. China has no capacity to block us.
> 
> *It is because of US*. What we need from Central Asia is resources. And contrary to what you believe, it is not feasible to bring heavy metals all the way from Afghanistan and Central Asia via a rail line through Pakistan. These things need ports for metal evacuation considering the distance.



Not the US, it is Pakistan that is sitting between you that is stopping your expansion on your West. This is why you cannot send your goods to Afghanistan, the only way you can do that is through air or through a long link through the sea. I cannot remember the name of the report but it clearly stated that Indian goods are 30-40% more expensive due to Pakistan's blockage of the Indian goods. 



Contrarian said:


> And as long as US continues to isolate Iran, we cannot access those minerals. The day US stops imposing sanctions on Iran, our route to Central Asia is wide open!



That day does not look possible any time soon, the Iranian regime still hates the US and chants 'Death to America'. 



Contrarian said:


> And India's new procurements in the last 2 -3 years are all geared towards China. That even includes the Apaches! The gunships that would have been most handy in destroying Pakistani armour, they are going to be stationed in the East. That should give you more than a clue.



Good for you, but is still enough to stop the PLA juggernaut. PLA can mobilize 40 divisions much faster before the Indians can rush their defences, this is why your raising new Corps over there. The infrastructure that PLA has built is simply spectacular, the IA is no where near building her capacity level similar to what the PLA has built. 



Contrarian said:


> This is a classic case. Pakistan does not import high value goods from India because of restrictions. The day MFN is granted and trade thrown wide open without restrictions, within a decade Pakistan would be importing all kinds of high value and high technology products from India.



Anything that India produces even high valued goods can easily be substituted from China, hate to break the news for you. India hooking Pakistan onto her goods is highly unlikely, the only way i see India fielding economic leverage on Pakistan is if it starts to import a lot of Pakistani goods and start making a considerable contribution to Pakistan's FX, something similar to what the Americans do but thats highly unlikely. 



Contrarian said:


> This is exactly the reason why Pakistan Army has stopped Pakistan from trading with India without restrictions till date. They realize this.



On the contrary, PA has encouraged the Government to open trade links with India, you are severely misinformed my friend. 



Contrarian said:


> However, what do you think has made Pakistani people and politicians feel that trade with India would better their lives and country? They didnt feel this before for 60 years, why now?
> Its because they see and hear from newspapers and first hand, that India is growing fast, India is bettering itself. Had India not been economically growing, there would have been no change from what Pakistani's - public and polity - thought as before.
> 
> Do you see a 360 degree effect that India growing economically is having on Pakistan. Do



No arguments there. An economically strong India highly integrated with Pakistan economically is in Pakistan's best interests. 



Contrarian said:


> India is not the US. We are trying to grow.
> Do you see a 360 degree effect that India growing economically is having on Pakistan. Do you realize that Pakistan Army is already under severe stress in letting go the amount of budget it takes from Pakistan for just maintaining the current lopsided balance? A balance in which Pakistan Army cannot even execute limited incursions in India, that they did in the 65 as well as 71 wars?
> Indian military today enjoys equipment and resources that PA can no longer fight in Indian territory.
> 
> And yet, India continues to grow more - put more money in economy, infrastructure as well as military. Putting even more pressure on PA to not let go of the ridiculously high percentage of budget it takes from Pakistan's national budget. You are caught in a classic bind. And we are pulling much further ahead of you.



Seriousally, what is with this classic Indian fallacy of PA taking too much budget from Pakistan's national budget. Is Indian propaganda that strong that even intelligent individuals like you start believing non sense propaganda. Defence expenditure as of last year constituted almost 17% of the total budget and almost 3% of the total GDP, and keep in mind that we are also funding our military operations on the Western border out of that 17% budget.

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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> Actually as economic conditions worsen, it affects social security. And that prepares a field for many threats.
> 
> Even if they don't take nukes, will it be worth having the sanctions ?



There's no denial ...

After ? No one is left and no form of Govt exists ? Think what is being discussed ...

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## darkinsky

@KRAIT bhai itna to mera pichwara bhi nahi jala tha india ke ICBM launch peh

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## pakistanitarzan

Secur said:


> What do you know of the geography of Pakistan ?  ... Yes , nobody's using nukes just because IA have started crossing the border , that is the opinion of neighboring country's fanboys here , not ours ! They can keep underestimating our conventional strength , we do not mind honestly , its not like that PA cant fight without nuclear weapons ...



Well I agree with you but what i mean't was that probability of using nukes at earlier stage of a war is low

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## KRAIT

darkinsky said:


> @KRAIT bhai itna to mera pichwara bhi nahi jala tha india ke ICBM launch peh


Abe jal kiski rahi hai. Waise bhi ICBM tum pe use nahin hogi. 

We are discussing usage of Tactical Nukes which can spiral out into full blown Nuclear war.

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## darkinsky

KRAIT said:


> Abe jal kiski rahi hai.



to kia pure jal jaye ge to tugh ko pta chale ga

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## Irfan Baloch

Contrarian said:


> I agree with all that you say. However terrorism emanating from Pakistani soil is major point of concern and for all practical purposes the only point of concern.



please stop ...this is like a broken record now

we are the ones who suffered because of your support of terrorist Mukti bahmi resulting in break up of the country and your support of BLA is openly flouted by the terrorists. its a two way streak 

if you want assurences then so do we, if you people of a big democracy promise that you wont let your agencies and your leaders insitgate trouble and terrorism in Pakistan then we can do the same and hold our leaders accountable, its the power of people who removed a general and the president from the seat and made him an exile so yes we can do that. but question is .. are you honest enough and willing enough do to the same for us? or would you simply deny and maintain that your black ops and intelligence agencies only exist to study the impact of CFCs on the Ozone layer? lets be realistic here and lay off the crap shall we? there are numerous anti Pakistan entities that are operating in Pakistan and have recently sped up their work since the Indian offices have started sprouting all over Afghan Pakistan border of course they are not listed on google or international yellow pages for obvious reasons but people who need to know in India know very well what we are talking about.

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## notorious_eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets be realistic here and lay off the crap shall we? there are numerous anti Pakistan entities that are operating in Pakistan and have recently sped up their work since the Indian offices have started sprouting all over Afghan Pakistan border of course they are not listed on google or international yellow pages for obvious reasons but people who need to know in India know very well what we are talking about.



Irfan Bhai

I for one believe that whether with India's consent or without, this whole drama is going to come to an end soon. As the Americans pack up and leave, they are trying to initiate self stabilising facors in Afghanistan. One of the stabilising factors is assure Pakistan that her interests are secure and Afghan territory would not be used for hostile acts against Pakistan. So far the Indians have been lucky to piggy back on American efforts without putting much weight inside Afghanistan, but as the Americans start packing up, they are going to soon start implementing these stabilising factors which includes an end to Indian covert ops inside Afghanistan. Thus, American and Indian interests have started to diverge in Afghanistan, thus it would be upto the Indians how high are they willing to pull up these stakes. The only way they can sustain these ops is through a much bigger effort of time, military and financial resources which clearly they are not willing to invest. As the Americans leave, i am willing to bet that Indians will also start packing up these special ops because they will be lacking the military muscle required for the protection for these ops.

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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> please stop ...this is like a broken record now
> 
> we are the ones who suffered because of your support of terrorist Mukti bahmi resulting in break up of the country and your support of BLA is openly flouted by the terrorists. its a two way streak
> 
> if you want assurences then so do we, if you people of a big democracy promise that you wont let your agencies and your leaders insitgate trouble and terrorism in Pakistan then we can do the same and hold our leaders accountable, its the power of people who removed a general and the president from the seat and made him an exile so yes we can do that. but question is .. are you honest enough and willing enough do to the same for us? or would you simply deny and maintain that your black ops and intelligence agencies only exist to study the impact of CFCs on the Ozone layer? lets be realistic here and lay off the crap shall we? there are numerous anti Pakistan entities that are operating in Pakistan and have recently sped up their work since the Indian offices have started sprouting all over Afghan Pakistan border of course they are not listed on google or international yellow pages for obvious reasons but people who need to know in India know very well what we are talking about.



Irfan saheb, 

The word Covert draws conjecture. If pakistani operations against India were covert, with no pakistanis involved, or no groups like Lashker e taibba, harkut ul mujhideen, al badr, jaish e muhamad, etc openly drawing recruitment and funds in pakistan, there woouldn't be any complaints. Do we see Indian groups drawing recruitment for fighting in balochistan, or do we see indian fighters in nwfp or are your ttp's captured from mumbai and banglore. 

As far as Mukti bahini goes, as per your claim that it was a indian doctored organisation, then how do you explain bangladesh not descending into anarchy now. If it indeed was just an indian insurgency, bd wouldnt have survived after india pulled out. 
Case and point khalistan movement, we clamped down on on the insurgents and the punjab did not support the rebels, once pakistani support died down there was no khalistan. 

"Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh" from IC814 hijacking finds refuge in pakistan and kills danel pearl, When he was released from hijacking and went into pakistan, wasn't it the moral responsibility of pakistan to arrest him????

"Masood Azhar" from IC814 hijacking finds refuge in pakistan and and forms Jaish-e-Mohammed responsible for killing hundreds of indian civilians, When he was released from hijacking and went into pakistan, wasn't it the moral responsibility of pakistan to arrest him????

Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar from IC814 hijacking finds refuge in pakistan responsible for killing dozens of military personnel, When he was released from hijacking and went into pakistan, wasn't it the moral responsibility of pakistan to arrest him????

This shows pak government's endorsement to "terrorists", whereas Indian government has never pledged any allegiance to balochistan, we have never raised any baloch issues, niether do we support them, and neither do we supply them with Insas rifles, or IOF grenades as such.

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## Capt.Popeye

notorious_eagle said:


> Irfan Bhai
> 
> I for one believe that whether with India's consent or without, this whole drama is going to come to an end soon. As the Americans pack up and leave, they are trying to initiate self stabilising facors in Afghanistan. One of the stabilising factors is assure Pakistan that her interests are secure and Afghan territory would not be used for hostile acts against Pakistan. So far the Indians have been lucky to piggy back on American efforts without putting much weight inside Afghanistan, but as the Americans start packing up, they are going to soon start implementing these stabilising factors which includes an end to Indian covert ops inside Afghanistan. Thus, American and Indian interests have started to diverge in Afghanistan, thus it would be upto the Indians how high are they willing to pull up these stakes. The only way they can sustain these ops is through a much bigger effort of time, military and financial resources which clearly they are not willing to invest. As the Americans leave, i am willing to bet that Indians will also start packing up these special ops because they will be lacking the military muscle required for the protection for these ops.


 @notorious_eagle
The subject of your thesis above: is it a "prediction" or is it a "wish list"?

I will make one prediction now; That USA and Iran will mend their fences. And the reason for that will be need to stabilise Afghanistan. Somebody will facilitate that.
Another thing; USA will draw in Russia and C.A.Rs also into the process. They will get much more purchase/leverage than they have now. This will get tacit approval from China.

Now just mull that over. Do even take an opinion on this from @muse on this. He has been thinking about this matter too and has his own take. Plus he is familiar with Robert Kaplan and his ideas. Then see how it can go.

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## Irfan Baloch

notorious_eagle said:


> Irfan Bhai
> 
> I for one believe that whether with India's consent or without, this whole drama is going to come to an end soon. As the Americans pack up and leave, they are trying to initiate self stabilising facors in Afghanistan.



I am a pacifist but I dont suffer internet warrior fools that well. there is a limit to every thing. anyone who has interest access seems to has become a self assumed supreme commander of Indian military although the closest he would have gone to a gun is his computer or tv screen.

I have personally witnessed death and some very disturbing images. I have been involved in this perpetual Pak army Indian army conflict along the Kashmir front so when I say I dont have the appetite for it then I mean it.

most of the Indians are very good but its this self righteously holier than the angels attitude where they wont admit to their role in Pakistan's breakup and the current terrorism in Pakistan ... thats a nonstarter for any meaningful peace.

its in our own interest that there is no terrorism in India that has roots in Pakistan because that affects us indirectly, there is no bigger lesson from our involvement in Soviet war. Saudis got off lightly, Americans only got 911 to mourn but we are paying its pirce the day we started training the Afghans and suffered at the hands of KGB and Afghan KHAD then and now there are almost agencies from almost every country that wants to teach us a lesson one way or another or has it axe to grind because things didnt go well despite the awesomeness of its military after 10 years in Afghanistan. 

if its down to me, I will skin those people alive who have played part in Mombai terror plotting or if they are planning anything similar 

but please quit your cold start bullshiite.. go bully Bangladesh or Maldevies or Sri Lanka , if such provocation is initiated by some adventurous Indian commanders then all bets are off

we are already pissed off badly and Indians rather not be on the receiving end of whatever we got for all its worth we ate the grass for

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## Desert Fox

Norboo said:


> I believe India's getting the Iron Dome system from Israel just to knock these out of the sky!



You mean the same iron dome that failed to knockout hamas's home made firecrackers? lmao,, okay, come back when you're not joking, perhaps some sense will prevail in your delusional mind.

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## MilSpec

notorious_eagle said:


> Irfan Bhai
> I for one believe that whether with India's consent or without, this whole drama is going to come to an end soon. As the Americans pack up and leave, they are trying to initiate self stabilising facors in Afghanistan. One of the stabilising factors is assure Pakistan that her interests are secure and Afghan territory would not be used for hostile acts against Pakistan. So far the Indians have been lucky to piggy back on American efforts without putting much weight inside Afghanistan, but as the Americans start packing up, they are going to soon start implementing these stabilising factors which includes an end to Indian covert ops inside Afghanistan. Thus, American and Indian interests have started to diverge in Afghanistan, thus it would be upto the Indians how high are they willing to pull up these stakes. The only way they can sustain these ops is through a much bigger effort of time, military and financial resources which clearly they are not willing to invest. As the Americans leave, i am willing to bet that Indians will also start packing up these special ops because they will be lacking the military muscle required for the protection for these ops.



One one hand you want India to treat pakistan as equals, whereas you show complete inability to treat afghans as your equals and want to treat them as your backyard, may I ask why. Who are you to tell the afghans what they should do? If afghans want to associate with indian, russian, somalians or martians, who are you to dictate to them, what they can do or not do. Did we ever tell you that in interest of India you should not associate with the chinese? You cry Indian hegemony every chance you get, but afghans must pertain to pakistani interests? wah re double standards

You criticize Indian efforts of building hospitals, schools and roads in Afghanistan calling it piggybacking, where all you have done is ensured is providing them with kalashnikovs, sure your defence is "we have supported their refugee's" so what, It was a nation under duress, and you provided them shelter, do you forget the billions you extracted from the gulf countries to rehabilitate these refuges, which you instead pumped into indoctrination, arming and imposing the most draconian fascist rulers the world has ever seen. 

Please enlighten me how many hospitals, schools or roads Pakistan has built in Afghanistan, because pakistan bankrolled taliban into marching on to kabul, that surely must have taken some money. And these so called indian black op's, who conducts them ?Indian special forces or your own pakistani civilians, and what does that say about the sense of nationalism in pakistan. 

You often used the term "scary" for others? didn't pakistanis find it scary supporting and recognizing taliban? don't you find it scary when you openly admit you would like to see "taliban" in the afghan government? 

You can live under the boogeyman where, MB is all india, BRA/BLA/TTP/AQ all are indian agents, your media is sold to indians, your politicians are sold to americans, the only party which flawless is your military admin.

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## EAK

Iron Dome .... well that wud be a great waste of money ... but indians like Israel so u never know


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## KRAIT

@Irfan Baloch Sir most of the Indians don't know about Cold Start. And why this doctrine will be out if we all know that the whole point is surprise and fast attack. I personally don't think that IA will follow this Doctrine in any time soon.

People in India are more worried about the internal problems and economic woes. Everyday I see it on Social Media, on News Channel etc, the discussion recently.

Anti-Pakistan rants just come when Mumbai or LOC incidents happen. Soon, people forget it. Many posters who were saying LOC incident was to divert the attention from Rape issue, should know that protests are still there but not on roads. In one month, a committee delivered its result to PM. In coming session, many laws will be passed. 

I just think that we don't need any war with Pakistan. If we grow economically and attain good position at world stage, we can get rid of terrorism emitting from Pakistan or Afghanistan, without firing a bullet. 

For that we need massive lead in all sectors from Pakistan. At the end of the day, this gap will convince these War Mongers on both sides, to sit and solve the issues.

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## MilSpec

@KRAIT CSD is only a faster and effective way of mobilizing Indian armored corp, thats it.

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## Donatello

Irfan Baloch said:


> please stop ...this is like a broken record now
> 
> we are the ones who suffered because of your support of terrorist Mukti bahmi resulting in break up of the country and your support of BLA is openly flouted by the terrorists. its a two way streak
> 
> if you want assurences then so do we, if you people of a big democracy promise that you wont let your agencies and your leaders insitgate trouble and terrorism in Pakistan then we can do the same and hold our leaders accountable, its the power of people who removed a general and the president from the seat and made him an exile so yes we can do that. but question is .. are you honest enough and willing enough do to the same for us? or would you simply deny and maintain that your black ops and intelligence agencies only exist to study the impact of CFCs on the Ozone layer? lets be realistic here and lay off the crap shall we? there are numerous anti Pakistan entities that are operating in Pakistan and have recently sped up their work since the Indian offices have started sprouting all over Afghan Pakistan border of course they are not listed on google or international yellow pages for obvious reasons but people who need to know in India know very well what we are talking about.



Irfan saheb,

A person of your stature, should not argue with petty Indians here. They are all blinded to the realities of the fact that Americans are leaving defeated from Afghanistan and Indians will be left fending for themselves.


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## Capt.Popeye

sandy_3126 said:


> @KRAIT CSD is only a faster and effective way of mobilizing Indian armored corp, thats it.



CSD was the name of a conceptual study that was initiated by the then COAS to sort out the recurrent issues related to rapid mobilisation of forces. For some reason; its been given a mythical status as the (only?) way to fight a war with the PA. The strategists concerned are not complaining....

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## Contrarian

You and I have a penchant for long posts 



notorious_eagle said:


> And i believe you did not understand what i said. 1% economic growth for India adds more in terms of total amount compared to Pakistan's 1% growth. India has only outpaced Pakistan in her economic growth for the last 1.5 decade, before that Pakistan consistiently outpaced India. Right now the difference between the economic growth is only 2%, also please consider the factor that Pakistan is going through a severe crisis with governance and security related problems. As these problems die down in the next couple of years, economic growth for Pakistan will roar back into 7-8%.


You believe that Pakistan's economic growth will go to 7-8%. The rest of us dont. Most expectations are still that Pakistan will remain around 5% growth rate around 2020. 
Our economic slow down is also directly proportional to policies of the GoI which had started treating high economic growth as their birthright and arrogance- no less. Massive welfare policies have literally drained the budget with a huge fiscal deficit. That said, it is also expected that starting with the budget being presented at the end of this month, things will move north. Our Finance Minister has just been touring the developed world assuring investors of GoI's decision to limit and reduce fiscal deficit.

And compared with that it is also expected that our growth will be raised to 6.5% the coming year and over 7% the year after that - provided the fiscal consolidation roadmap is adhered to.

So doesnt that hark back the same point? That an India growing faster than Pakistan outpaces Pakistan in every sphere - diplomatic, military and economic. The results of this 1 decade of faster growth are slowly manifesting themselves. 



> It does, it provides a counter weight to India's hegemony. Pakistan is the only country that is in the way of India becaming a regional hegemonic power in South Asia. Ignoring your back handed slap regarding Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan, it was quite stable after a long time but the equilibrium was tarnished after NATO lead invasion. I will refrain from commenting on India's overt and covert role in stirring up trouble in Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc.


Your statement that Pakistan is a counter weight to India's hegemony would be true if there were 2 facts:
1. Pakistan had the same economic size and diplomatic heft and military capability(not merely defensive - rather expeditionary) as India to be a counterweight
2. Pakistan had the ability to influence India and stop an Indian course of action which would have taken place had Pakistan not been there.

Point 1 is not even close to being true. Point 2 is correct in limited areas. Pakistan has been blocking Indian trade materializing with Afghanistan. Trade would be a misnomer. Indian exports to Afghanistan are a miniscule amount. What we want is extraction of mineral resources from Afghanistan. However do you realize that Pakistan is NOT blocking Indian trade to Central Asia ? Contrary to what Aeronaut believes Central Asia is distant enough that trucking is not economically feasible. The only viable trade of big economic value through Central Asia is via the nearest port. That is either Gwadar or Chabahar. Our friend Aeronaut is under the illusion that were Pakistan to allow Indian transit, India would be trading on land with Russia and other CAS states. I hope you donot make the same assumptions. The costs dont add up. It has to be via sea for any worthwhile extraction.

As i said, in this case, our trade with Central Asia is blocked by none other than our dear partner - USA. 

So considering those above 2 conditions, you can hardly call Pakistan a 'counter weight' to India. If that were to be the case then South Korea is also a 'counter weight' to China! Pakistan is blocking our access. Pakistan can be bypassed, but the other route is being blocked by USA.

Another statement you made - that Pakistan is the only one who can stand up to India's 'hegemony'. I wonder, which sovereign State of South Asia has made claims that India is acting like a hegemon? Has any state expressed desire to counter India's claimed hegemony?

The last time I checked, we share more than warm relations with Bangladesh, who has in fact been the key to clamping down the insurgencies in NE India. They have been ruthless in hunting India's enemies, and we owe them nothing less than gratitude for it. 

Myanmar shares more than amazing relations with us. India has been providing military equipment by the truckloads(literally) and surveillance equipment that none - including China - is providing them. We share cultural relations with the most important person in Myanmar - Aung San Syu Ki

Nepal? Nepal is almost a protectorate of India.

Sri Lanka? While we cannot arm Sri Lanka owing to severe domestic concerns, and despite India being the seeder of LTTE, it was India without whose tacit support SL would not have won this war. And yet again - we share cultural relations with them.

Maldives? We are the whole and sole provider of their nation. Their external security is literally entrusted in Indian Navy.



> Not really, you allowed your enemy to concentrate his forces on one front instead of splitting them up in two taking into account his inferior numbers.


If you truly believe that having a BD is worse for Indian security than a United Pakistan, then I am having these discussions with the wrong person. 



> Excellent, thus the entire premise behind the CSD to mobilize before Pakistan mobilizes and catch Pakistan off guard is pretty much defeated.


You are wrong. And despite some articles claiming to say so, the entire premise of the CSD is to mobilize before International pressure stops India from starting action coupled with Indian political class of the day backing off after initial resolve. 

If you thought the premise behind CSD was to beat Pakistan to the border, you can not possibly be more wrong. That is impossible as i said considering Pakistan's geographical shape.



> Why would Pakistan want to lead an incursion into India when it can cause more damage to India from stand off ranges. Precision Guided Munitions and Cruise Missiles can cause more damage than sending in a Brigade to do the job. The only reason why PA in the past considered the idea of limited incursions into India because that was the only way to cause damage inside India. Our aircrafts in the past lacked the legs to strike deep inside India and cause considerable amount of damage. That disadvantage has been nullified with the addition of considerable arsenal of stand off weapons that Pakistan has accumulated in the last 2 decades.


Actually no. Pakistan's inventory of stand off weapons is not even close to taking out the military targets in Punjab and Rajasthan. You would run out of munitions long before even the important targets stop! That is a canard you are trying to peddle.

Pakistan Army has for the longest period of time followed the policy of initiating action and fighting on Indian territory instead of Pakistani. That was when they could enter India and hold on to territory. They could do much more damage than Pakistan's current level of inventory of munitions would ever. Considering the fact that Pakistan's Army also realizes that PAF would not really have all the time and assets to attack India, when most of them would be on interdiction duty. IAF today packs quite the whallop and what is different from yesteryears - is that it has the ability to _field_ its superior numbers on the west- something it lacked before. I have had this discussion with Oscar as well. Feel free to chat with him regarding this.

So, far from being an initiating force, Pakistan Army is today a defensive force. Quite a change in orientation.



> Pray tell me, what force are you talking about because i have been closely following India's military build up and nothing suggests to me that Pakistan is outgunned. The only thing that i was terrified off were the 40 Smerch Batteries that IA acquired, it allowed IA to crush any mass formations of PA Armour from stand off ranges. Now that A-100 system has come online now with PA, it gives PA the ability to open the Smerch system for counter battery. But overall, i don't see any system with India right now that can deliver India the slam dunk she requires. As i said before, stop trying to be scary because you are not.


I agree with you on this. I said India is in the process of acquiring assets - primarily airborne that would change the equations and by virtue of superior numbers make a difference. Indian defence acquisitions as we know, take more than a little time to get going.



> Off course you want that, everyone of your strategic planners who retire have stated this over and over again that PA needs to be disbanded. The only force that is standing in the way of IA becaming the sole hegemonic power of the region is PA.


Again, as long as we can ensure a pliable Pakistan, it makes no difference whether PA is present or not, whether PA is ruling Pakistan or not.



> Off course, consensus of India would be required or else it would have been plain discriminatory. As i said stop acting scary, this decision had nothing to do with your diplomatic or economic weight but more to do with equality.


Well, BD who was also against this didnt hold out long at all. Unfortunately the real world does not function on the basis of equality. Certain players are more equal than the others. And India did allow it as a gesture of good will, nothing else.



> It more has to do with the fact that Pakistan has realized that Kashmir cannot be won through a military duel due to the terrain and topography of the area. The only way forward for an amicable settlement is through a dialogue, it has nothing to do with Indian clout. But using your analogy, if India has succeeded here, how come it has failed to force Pakistani leaders to deport Hafiz Saeed to India? Looks like the Indian clout failed here, as i said before your not scary.


India however did field enough clout to make sure Saudi Arabia deported an Indian back to India. I hope you will not feign innocence here, that the quite standard operating procedure for terrorists with links to Pakistan has been that Pakistan sends them to the Gulf on Pakistani passports, and the Gulf countries - in their support to Pakistan would refuse to deport anyone to India because they would hold a Pakistani passport despite India being able to prove that they are actually Indian.

So that was a first wasnt it? There are many firsts happening for India in the last 1 decade, doors are opening that were shut before. You would have to be deliberately willing to ignore these facts.



> Same reason as Kashmirs, lack of ability to settle this through a military duel.


Yet Pakistan did think earlier that it could by means of military take both Kashmir and Siachen. What stopped them? Maybe the increasing military capacity of India - increasing in tune with increasing economic capacity? Or does that have no role to play as per you?



> And pigs would fly, your just picking out straws to strenghten your flawed arguments. If Indian pressure was making Pakistan back off, believe me there are a lot more things India would have made Pakistan do.


I said that India is beginning to get some clout against Pakistan, and quite a bit more with the rest of the world. Water always flows from high to low ground. That is nature, as India's clout with the world grows, Pakistan will not be as immune as it used to be.



> Heard this Indian Utopian Dream many times. Haven't you guys learned anything after the stand off in 2001 and 2008, PA is at best immune from a strike from IA as it was demonstrated twice in these two cases. PA called out IA's bluff twice and mobilized, in these cases the IA was red faced and made to look powerless against PA.


Do read what i wrote above. Its a process that will take another decade more. Its only just started.



> As they say, there is synthesis and antithesis. There are many who claim that stats were falsified but there are also many whom say that stats were not falsified. The stock market went through the roof, companies were producing record profits and consumption levels multiplied by almost 400 times. We living here in Pakistan saw the fruits of the economic development, never in my life did i ever see that much money in Pakistan as i saw it during Musharraf's term.


Sure. There was an economic improvement. To what extent is the question. It is generally accepted that Musharraf exagerated. So by how much is the question.

Time is on India's side as long as India grows faster than Pakistan.



> Excellent and my sincere commendations for all that, but China still leads the race and is the largest patron of the Burmese Government. You still fail to understand what i said, you cannot grow on your East because the Chinese have blocked you over there. Building one port isn't enough, you lack the logistics.


Chinese have not blocked us anywhere on the East. Please understand this. The port is getting built, the roads are getting built. China has no say in this. You are dragging an unrelated topic altogether here. China has been to put very bluntly unsuccessful in blocking India from the East.

The *only* place China has been successful is in Pakistan. On the other hand, India has been successful in denying China war time naval berthing rights that Myanmar was about to give away, or renew lease on Coco Islands - which again has been denied for now. 



> Predicting about the future and looking at the current trends is a whole different ball game. Once India is fully set to expand in the East, i will retract my statement but as of now i won't. When the roads are built, the port gets busy and trucks start moving on those newly built roads, we will talk.


Whether you retract or not is your decision. Even the Japanese are planning and investing in a corridor that spans India, Myanmar, Vietnam. The $90 billion Indian industrial corridor being built with Japanese money is just for that purpose. Construction for that has already started. A tricountry highway to be built has started construction in India connecting India, BD and Myanmar.



> Not the US, it is Pakistan that is sitting between you that is stopping your expansion on your West. This is why you cannot send your goods to Afghanistan, the only way you can do that is through air or through a long link through the sea. I cannot remember the name of the report but it clearly stated that Indian goods are 30-40% more expensive due to Pakistan's blockage of the Indian goods.


Yes. As i said. Our exports to Afghanistan are really something that matter. Its less than miniscule compared to our overall exports. What is hurting is the ability to extract Afghanistan minerals. That can only be done by the nearest sea route - either Gwadar or Chabahar. Pakistan not allowing is acceptable. However US denying us use of Chabahar is what is really causing problems.



> That day does not look possible any time soon, the Iranian regime still hates the US and chants 'Death to America'.


I agree. 


> Good for you, but is still enough to stop the PLA juggernaut. PLA can mobilize 40 divisions much faster before the Indians can rush their defences, this is why your raising new Corps over there. The infrastructure that PLA has built is simply spectacular, the IA is no where near building her capacity level similar to what the PLA has built.


We are building similar infrastructure. It takes time. We started late, and thus will take longer. On the other hand, there really is no need to rush things. We have adequate mobilization capacity with additional brigades already recruited and a new corps being raised. In those mountains you need a 1:9 ratio to attack. 

That said, neither India, nor China expect to get into a fight. Infact both nations have tried to warm up relations. Both nations are focused on their economies. That is priority number 1 for both.



> Anything that India produces even high valued goods can easily be substituted from China, hate to break the news for you. India hooking Pakistan onto her goods is highly unlikely, the only way i see India fielding economic leverage on Pakistan is if it starts to import a lot of Pakistani goods and start making a considerable contribution to Pakistan's FX, something similar to what the Americans do but thats highly unlikely.


Dependencies can be created even while exporting. This would come to fruition if the MFN is granted. Its a question of when not if.



> On the contrary, PA has encouraged the Government to open trade links with India, you are severely misinformed my friend.


Ofcourse we all realize that foreign policy of all nations important to Pakistan are strictly decided by GHQ. That said, GHQ is under quite a bind. They dont like it one bit that there has to be trade, but they also realize the inevitability of it and the benefits of it. Its not a decision they have taken willingly.



> Seriousally, what is with this classic Indian fallacy of PA taking too much budget from Pakistan's national budget. Is Indian propaganda that strong that even intelligent individuals like you start believing non sense propaganda. Defence expenditure as of last year constituted almost 17% of the total budget and almost 3% of the total GDP, and keep in mind that we are also funding our military operations on the Western border out of that 17% budget.


Well, even in peace time Pakistani budget has not gone below 3%. So its quite unlikely to do so in the future as well. Lets leave this issue altogether.

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## Xracer

Nasr BRBMs 
The biggest Threat for Indian Troops on the battle Field


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## Rocky25

Irfan Baloch said:


> I have personally witnessed death and some very disturbing images. I have been involved in this perpetual Pak army Indian army conflict along the Kashmir front so when I say I dont have the appetite for it then I mean it.



Sorry for you having witnessing the war!



Irfan Baloch said:


> most of the Indians are very good but its this self righteously holier than the angels attitude where they wont admit to their role in Pakistan's breakup and the current terrorism in Pakistan ... thats a nonstarter for any meaningful peace.



I was not the one falling in that category! I felt so ashamed when I hear that RAW is not as powerful as the MOSSAD.. If Pakistan supports Kashmiri insurgency openly then why can't India support Baloch insurgency openly! Why I am NOT hearing that Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim are died under mysterious circumstance!

I feel so bad that India is not capable to hit the terror camps with surgical strikes..... Even though the military says they are capable... A lot of training and equipment are needed in this space!

Kashmir is an integral part of India... India is not even ready to make territorial concessions with China... Why it should do so with a country whose defense budget is just a fraction of its own!

If you want take Kashmir from India.. come and take it! If peace can be prevailed only if Pakistan disintegrates then so be it!



Irfan Baloch said:


> its in our own interest that there is no terrorism in India that has roots in *Pakistan because that affects us indirectly*, there is no bigger lesson from our involvement in Soviet war. Saudis got off lightly, Americans only got 911 to mourn but we are paying its pirce the day we started training the Afghans and suffered at the hands of KGB and Afghan KHAD then and now there are almost agencies from almost every country that wants to teach us a lesson one way or another or has it axe to grind because things didnt go well despite the awesomeness of its military after 10 years in Afghanistan.



It is pathetic that India does not make Pakistan affecting directly!

The problem is till the day Pakistan nourishes the 'good' terrorist and supports them this won't be changed! 
'For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction' ~ Newton's 3rd law.... 

You were OKAY when you received the latest F-16's and P3C Orion and billions in humanitarian aid and diverted to strengthen yourself viz India.... You should test the depth of water with one leg!



Irfan Baloch said:


> if its down to me, I will skin those people alive who have played part in Mombai terror plotting or if they are planning anything similar



Glad that you did not think 26/11 is an insider job! But alas! The ISI Major who helped the attack is free in Pakistan! And the LeT terrorists are in jail but treated as they were in their mother-in-law's place! There are still terror camps active in Pakistan! The Pakistani army supports the terrorist infiltrate with their shelling cover! 



Irfan Baloch said:


> but please quit your cold start bullshiite.. go bully Bangladesh or Maldevies or Sri Lanka , if such provocation is initiated by *some adventurous Indian commanders* then all bets are off



Why do you think that India make a doctrine and make it open to everyone? Are they fools? Who gave Pakistan the authority that they can use miniature nuke weapon on another nation which starts the fight conventionally! Whether the UN allows that? Or whether US/Russia/China allow that! 

Reg the bold part... There is a great difference... The Indian Army, Navy & Air Force fall under the Civilian government! So the adventure should have the Civilian government's blessing!



Irfan Baloch said:


> we are already pissed off badly and Indians rather not be on the receiving end of whatever we got for all its worth we ate the grass for



That is the problem.... Your brain is not working now with the grass fodder!

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## AmeerPaul

Indian always claim to have indigenous capabilities, but now to encounter Pakistani indigenous capability, you are trying to buy foreign technology and foreign system - You negated yourself. Now, Iron Dome or any other Dome can not counter it. More over when a number of missiles are launched, any encountering system can disable one or two missiles but not all. Hence there is no arsenal as yet in offing which can counter this missile.


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## Rocky25

AmeerPaul said:


> Indian always claim to have indigenous capabilities, but now to encounter Pakistani indigenous capability, you are trying to buy foreign technology and foreign system - You negated yourself. Now, Iron Dome or any other Dome can not counter it. More over when a number of missiles are launched, any encountering system can disable one or two missiles but not all. Hence there is no arsenal as yet in offing which can counter this missile.



You told you that India have indigenous capabilities? India is the number one Arms importer in the world!


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## kobiraaz

CONGRATULATIONS to PAKISTAN Army...

Sorry bro @genmirajborgza786 , had xams

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## ares

Secur said:


> So , they are ready to risk the lives of a billion Indians just for a couple of invading IBG's ? I never got any rational answer to that ...



You will be the first one to fire a nuclear weapon..so you tell me.
We will just be responding to it, as per our already declared nuclear doctrine.

Rational answer to your above is..
If Pakistan decides on a Nuclear strike in a war, for its own sake, it will certainly not foolish enough to just deploy tactical nuke on small military target/s.

Because such a scenario gives India an opportunity to carry preemptive conventional as well nuclear strike to take out remainder of it nuclear weapons.

Owing to the fact, that it has relatively limited land area for dispersal of its weapons and absence of nuclear triad.. gives it very limited second strike abilities. 

Its land based mobile launchers remain vulnerable to the enemy strikes. 

On top of that, Indian nuclear doctrine of Massive punitive retaliation in case of nuclear strike on India or Indian forces(irrespective of the size of the weapon deployed by Pakistan)..gives Pakistan..very little wiggle room in this department.

If Pakistan were to deploy Nukes it will all out strike and certainly be a measure of last resort.


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## Green Angel

First North Korea. Now Pakistan. The Pakistani government said Tuesday it had successfully conducted a test of its short-range ballistic missiles  which are capable of carrying nuclear firepower.

The short-range missile, dubbed Nasr, runs about 100 miles, United Press International reports But its technological strength  aside from nuclear capability  is its ability to dodge missile defense systems.

Read more: Pakistan conducts ballistic missile test - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter


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## genmirajborgza786

kobiraaz said:


> CONGRATULATIONS to PAKISTAN Army...
> 
> Sorry bro @genmirajborgza786 , had xams



best of luck with your exam & may you soon become *dr.*kobiraaz insha'Allah

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## kurup

Green Angel said:


> First North Korea. Now Pakistan. The Pakistani government said Tuesday it had successfully conducted a test of its short-range ballistic missiles &#8212; which are capable of carrying nuclear firepower.
> 
> The short-range missile, dubbed Nasr, runs about 100 miles, United Press International reports But its technological strength &#8212; aside from nuclear capability &#8212; is its ability to dodge missile defense systems.
> 
> Read more: Pakistan conducts ballistic missile test - Washington Times
> Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter



Please post the diamensions , payload weight and CEP of the missile .


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## The Deterrent

Green Angel said:


> First North Korea. Now Pakistan. The Pakistani government said Tuesday it had successfully conducted a test of its short-range ballistic missiles &#8212; which are capable of carrying nuclear firepower.
> 
> The short-range missile, dubbed Nasr, runs about 100 miles, United Press International reports But its technological strength &#8212; aside from nuclear capability &#8212; is its ability to dodge missile defense systems.
> 
> Read more: Pakistan conducts ballistic missile test - Washington Times
> Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter



Wrong information. Refer to ISPR's press release where the range is mentioned as 60 kilometers (instead of 100 miles/ 160 kilometers).


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## kurup

AhaseebA said:


> Wrong information. Refer to ISPR's press release where the range is mentioned as 60 kilometers (instead of 100 miles/ 160 kilometers).



Any news about the diamensions , payload weight and CEP of the missile .


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## saiyan0321

nasr is a 60 miles missile... totally battle oriented. Like attacking camps of the enemy or bases... What were the new improvements in this version or was a maintenance test or something secret


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## Safriz

saiyan0321 said:


> nasr is a 60 miles missile... totally battle oriented. Like attacking camps of the enemy or bases... What were the new improvements in this version or was a maintenance test or something secret


This is the video from 2011 test..






watch first 17 seconds and you will note that the missile performs manoeuvre's soon after launch.

But if you watch recent video the trajectory is different..

Looks like they are testing different launch profiles...

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## A.Rafay

Safriz said:


> This is the video from 2011 test..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch first 17 seconds and you will note that the missile performs manoeuvre's soon after launch.
> 
> But if you watch recent video the trajectory is different..
> 
> Looks like they are testing different launch profiles...



The speed of this missile is very fast!!

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## TOPGUN

Awsome news can't wait to see more pic's and videos

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## Safriz

some close-up pics of the missile posted in appropriate thread here.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...kistan-missile-technology-18.html#post3915719

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## Edevelop

Rocky25 said:


> You told you that India have indigenous capabilities? *India is the number one Arms importer in the world!*



And what would happen if they get destroyed. Will you wait for a couple of years to get more delivered ?


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## Safriz

*Nasr on 19th April 2011*







*Nasr on 29th May 2012*







See any difference?

29th may 2012 Launcher *from another angle.*






Only two missiles are loaded in 4 tubes.

Now look at this Video grab picture (By Windjammer) *on 11 Feb 2013*






All 4 tubes have missiles.


These Pictures should answer all Questions why Pakistan has *Test fired* the same missile 3 times.

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## Secur

ares said:


> You will be the first one to fire a nuclear weapon..so you tell me.
> We will just be responding to it, as per our already declared nuclear doctrine.



You will be the first one to cross the borders of a nuclear power maybe to the point of forcing it to use the unspeakable , so its your call here , Pakistan will resort to using nuclear weapons only when hypothetically its major towns and cities are captured / its fighting capability is severely limited and most importantly the sovereignty and the very existence of the country is in danger , not before , though whatever happens or in what order it happens or has the more probability of happening is only a matter of conjecture and can be closely related to Murphy's Law ... It certainly isn't like that Pakistan will use a tactical nuke when the first Indian soldier cross the border , we can hold on and defend for weeks , that theory by your Internet warriors is hilarious to say the least , may I just suggest that they learn about the conventional fighting strength of the seventh largest army in the world ?



ares said:


> Rational answer to your above is..
> If Pakistan decides on a Nuclear strike in a war, for its own sake, it will certainly not foolish enough to just deploy tactical nuke on small military target/s.



Not necessarily , no ... The armed forces of Pakistan hope to deter the aggressor from fighting a war in the first place by deploying such systems , they are encouraged by the success of that strategy almost three times now ... Tactical nuclear weapons can be used to warn the invaders that the nuclear thresholds have been crossed/are in the process of being crossed /have high probability of being crossed now and further action will get both countries to a point of no return then and would certainly put the aggressors in a dilemma whether to continue the misadventure risking the lives of a billion or to retreat back getting a few IBG's neutralized at the cost of image ? For those wondering whether Pakistan would nuke its own territory , it actually only makes it case stronger to use it on invaders on its very own soil to defend the motherland and knowing that they are most likely to be used in the unpopulated desert lands of Thar/Cholistan or Rajasthan , it is not that big a price to pay to safeguard the existence of the country ... The upper areas of Punjab and Gilgit-Balitistan/Azad Kashmir are ill suited for heavy mechanized offenses ... Indeed , Pakistan isn't foolish enough to use a TNW and then wait and watch for the next Indian move , and as soon as the first Tactical nukes is dropped , the SPD will go on high alert as usual and start deploying the rest of the strategic ones if not already then , but it certainly wont be the end of the game , that , sir will depend on the adversary's very next move ... The essence of the post is that " Pakistan owing to its geographic disadvantage of lacking strategic depth and limited offensive fighting capability has higher probability of getting its nuclear thresholds being crossed than adversary's " ... 



ares said:


> Because such a scenario gives India an opportunity to carry preemptive conventional as well nuclear strike to take out remainder of it nuclear weapons.Owing to the fact, that it has relatively limited land area for dispersal of its weapons and absence of nuclear triad.. gives it very limited second strike abilities.Its land based mobile launchers remain vulnerable to the enemy strikes.



The same goes for Pakistan to take out as many launch sites as possible , the conventional war can go unhindered from here too , but again you are talking of crossing a threshold by attacking the nuclear facilities which can be actually anywhere , the results of which wont be pleasant , make it "use em or lose em" for the Pakistanis at GHQ and they will certainly make it worth your while for the catastrophic misadventure ...

Pakistan is the 37th largest country of the world talking in terms of area , it has more areas than you are thinking right now to disperse nuclear weapons , we aren't the Maldives or the Coco Islands ... Pakistani nuclear triad will be completed in the near future if the reports are to be believed and the inauguration of Naval command at the SPD be considered seriously ... Western reports have repeatedly mentioned that the Pakistan has addressed the issues of survivability in a possible nuclear conflict already has a robust second strike capability in place ... 



ares said:


> On top of that, Indian nuclear doctrine of Massive punitive retaliation in case of nuclear strike on India or Indian forces(irrespective of the size of the weapon deployed by Pakistan)..gives Pakistan..very little wiggle room in this department.
> 
> If Pakistan were to deploy Nukes it will all out strike and certainly be a measure of last resort.



Back to Square One , you are ... Remember what I said about gambling with the lives of billions for a few invading IBG's ? It makes no sense to me but since when are wars fought on rationality ?

Not really ,there's much more to that strategy than you have studied and understood ...

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## Secur

Safriz said:


> These Pictures should answer all Questions why Pakistan has *Test fired* the same missile 3 times.



Shoot and scoot at its best - it appears to me now ...

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## SEAL

Indians hysteria as usual and they are creating stupid things for their own satisfaction.

If Pakistan use NASR against Indian IBG's then Indian forces will retreat peacefully, only a mentally retard person will risk a full scale nuclear war for what happened in battle field. Its easy to say on internet, i bet in such situation every Indian will pray that things won't escalate beyond battlefield and cease fire. That's why Nasr is so special ideal weapon of choice against enemy evil designs.

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## karan.1970

SEAL said:


> Indians hysteria as usual and they are creating stupid things for their own satisfaction.
> 
> If Pakistan use NASR against Indian IBG's then Indian forces will retreat peacefully, only a mentally retard person will risk a full scale nuclear war for what happened in battle field. Its easy to say on internet, i bet in such situation every Indian will pray that things won't escalate beyond battlefield and cease fire. That's why Nasr is so special ideal weapon of choice against enemy evil designs.



 Pakistan's forever dream of dictating the boundaries of war.. Did not work in 1965.. Not in Kargil.. Wont work in future either..


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## Secur

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistan's forever dream of dictating the boundaries of war.. Wont work in future either..



One wonders then " What is stopping you " if the conditions are/were so favorable to you  ... You mobilized and backed off both in '87 and '02 and after Mumbai attacks , you didn't even feel the need to do so rightly understanding that the results cant be different from the previous two experiences because the deterrence on the other side of the border has only grown stronger in years ... Nuclear deterrence has thus prevented three wars between both countries and in '99 didn't allow your boys to cross either the IB or LOC during Kargil even though your defense analysts are unanimous that it would have cut the Indian losses in half by attacking supply lines so it worked then for us right ? ... Basically , as soon as you cross the borders of Pakistan , implement the CSD , cross any nuclear threshold , you will be facing the dilemma I have mentioned and explained , that is for certain ...

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## karan.1970

Secur said:


> One wonders then " What is stopping you " if the conditions are/were so favorable to you  ... You mobilized and backed off both in '87 and '02 and after Mumbai attacks , you didn't even feel the need to do so rightly understanding that the results cant be different from the previous two experiences because the deterrence on the other side of the border has only grown stronger in years ... Nuclear deterrence has thus prevented three wars between both countries and in '99 didn't allow your boys to cross either the IB or LOC during Kargil even though your defense analysts are unanimous that it would have cut the Indian losses in half by attacking supply lines so it worked then for us right ? ... Basically , as soon as you cross the borders of Pakistan , implement the CSD , cross any nuclear threshold , you will be facing the dilemma I have mentioned and explained , that is for certain ...



Did you even pause to understand the context before replying ? Its very easy to say that Pakistan is insane and will cross the threshold by nuking an Indian battle formation and India will say Thank you and retreat.. Only fools or suicidal generals will think and plan on those lines. 

BTW There was no mobilization in 87 or 2008.. In 1987, the Pakistani strategists just had kittens looking at the scale on an Indian army exercise (duly notified ahead to time) Operation Brasstacks..

About not crossing the LoC during Kargil, well armchair generals wont understand that..The amount of ridicule and damage to Pakistan's credibility that maneuver cost was well worth any extra damage India took by not crossing the LoC. The cherry on the cake was the public flogging (figurative) of Pakistan's head of state by the American president.. Wonder if that would have ever happened if India had crossed the LoC

Most of Pakistan Army operations remind me of the saying.. All Brawn, no Brain  (actually same with all Pakistani diplomatic maneuvers)

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## Secur

karan.1970 said:


> Did you even pause to understand the context before replying ? Its very easy to say that Pakistan is insane and will cross the threshold by nuking an Indian battle formation and India will say Thank you and retreat.. Only fools or suicidal generals will think and plan on those lines.
> 
> BTW There was no mobilization in 87 or 2008.. In 1987, the Pakistani strategists just had kittens looking at the scale on an Indian army exercise (duly notified ahead to time) Operation Brasstacks..
> 
> About not crossing the LoC during Kargil, well armchair generals wont understand that..The amount of ridicule and damage to Pakistan's credibility that maneuver cost was well worth any extra damage India took by not crossing the LoC. The cherry on the cake was the public flogging (figurative) of Pakistan's head of state by the American president.. Wonder if that would have ever happened if India had crossed the LoC
> 
> Most of Pakistan Army operations remind me of the saying.. All Brawn, no Brain  (actually same with all Pakistani diplomatic maneuvers)



Read up my previous post ... I have said before that implementing CSD in the first place can lead to a full scale nuclear war ... You just expect my country to welcome the invaders at the borders and surrender silently ?  ... Pakistan isn't insane but hasn't developed the nuclear capability for nothing too ... Cross the threshold , you will likely get nuked if we are at a military disadvantage and face the same dilemma of " continue , risk the lives of a billion , or retreat , save them " ... Anything so hard , dear ? Yes , thank you for admitting that the people devising such a doctrine are suicidal ...

Really ? Go read up " Operation Brasstacks in '87 " the Sunderjee's master plan of cutting the Pakistan in half or the Operation Parakram in '02 when Indians were screaming for blood ? What happened ?  Both times , a warning by a Pakistani General was enough for you to back off ... We mobilized our forces and caught you on the border much earlier , both times , if you read the history ... I never mentioned any mobilization in '08 if you read my post carefully and not emotionally ... 

Armschair generals are basing their opinion on your defense analysts and ex-Generals analysis of Kargil war who regret on Indians not crossing the IB or LOC to cut the Pakistani supply lines ... The damage to Pakistan's credibility would have provided the justification for such an action easily , not otherwise ... Because if we were the bad guys , the world wouldn't have minded the Indians crossing the borders and capturing some key areas , maybe even bring the Siachen deployment costs down right ?  But there was the nuclear threat to keep some at bay ...

Actually it is " great strategic plans being executed at wrong times " ...

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## Slayer786

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistan's forever dream of dictating the boundaries of war.. Did not work in 1965.. Not in Kargil.. Wont work in future either..



Well it should be India who should be ashamed of not winning the 1965 war when its generals were boasting of drinking a toast in Lahore Gymkhana by evening but had to retreat back to its borders with their tails behind their legs. LOL.
And we still have Peak 5353, the highest peak from where 25km of Indian Occupied Highway is within our range. LOL.


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## Thorough Pro

You don't really need to scoot after firing a nuke at an adversary around 60 or km away, because adversary with all it's equipment would have evaporated within seconds and the resulting cloud would be sufficient to provide cover from any possible air strike from any enemy air assets providing air cover to the adversary, that is if they survive the blast wave (though I am not sure what kind of blast wave/or its effect would be on the air assets in the immediate vicinity. 




Secur said:


> Shoot and scoot at its best - it appears to me now ...


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## karan.1970

Secur said:


> Read up my previous post ... I have said before that implementing CSD in the first place can lead to a full scale nuclear war ... You just expect my country to welcome the invaders at the borders and surrender silently ?  ... Pakistan isn't insane but hasn't developed the nuclear capability for nothing too ... Cross the threshold , you will likely get nuked if we are at a military disadvantage and face the same dilemma of " continue , risk the lives of a billion , or retreat , save them " ... Anything so hard , dear ? Yes , thank you for admitting that the people devising such a doctrine are suicidal ...



Dude, I am not contesting that CSD may get blown into a nuke response by Pakistan, but its idiotic to assume that Pakistan will cross the threshold and just because they use tactical nukes, India will not up the ante.. And thats what my response was. Pakistanis have a tendency to believe that they can define the boundaries of an engagement.. Like Pakistan's attack in 1965 banked on the assumption that India will not open the front on the IB. Similarly in Kargil, Musharraf assumed that India will not up the ante.. In both cases India did not conform to those assumptions and Pakistan lost the initiative. And its never the doctrines that are suicidal, but the doctrines which assume that the opponent will play by your rules are bound to fail. 

btw, have you imagined this scenario.. Indian army opens a front in Punjab and one or more strike corps moves say 40-50 km inside Pakistani borders in Lahore sector. Your contention is that Pak will use Nukes to destroy this strike corps and India will not escalate the Nuke war.. Though the assumption is laughable, but for a moment lets go with it.. So India loses a strike corps, but remember Pakistan just nuked its most fertile area and made it unusable for next 100 years. Along with killing thousands of its own civilians. Think about it.. bet you never did 




Secur said:


> Really ? Go read up " Operation Brasstacks in '87 " the Sunderjee's master plan of cutting the Pakistan in half or the Operation Parakram in '02 when Indians were screaming for blood ? What happened ?  Both times , a warning by a Pakistani General was enough for you to back off ... We mobilized our forces and caught you on the border much earlier , both times , if you read the history ... I never mentioned any mobilization in '08 if you read my post carefully and not emotionally ...


Can you post some details about Operation Brasstacks that back your contention from a impartial source? The only mobilization India did and backed away from was in 2002. And the reasons then were more political after Musharraf did a lame cop out by publicly promising to not back terrorism in India. Its funny how you conveniently forget the global embarrassments Pakistan had to go thru because of its shenanigans and only remember India's reactions .. Maybe your mind refuses to accept painful memories of you heads of state's public humiliation ..




Secur said:


> Armschair generals are basing their opinion on your defense analysts and ex-Generals analysis of Kargil war who regret on Indians not crossing the IB or LOC to cut the Pakistani supply lines ... The damage to Pakistan's credibility would have provided the justification for such an action easily , not otherwise ... Because if we were the bad guys , the world wouldn't have minded the Indians crossing the borders and capturing some key areas , maybe even bring the Siachen deployment costs down right ?  But there was the nuclear threat to keep some at bay ...



That's why Pakistan always loses the plot internationally. No long term thought process...It was not enough to make Pakistan the bad guy.. India needed itself to be seen as the Good guy too.. which all but killed Pakistan's stand on Kashmir. Post Kargil, the regular stream of statements about Kashmir from international sources which use to pop up at regular intervals has slowed down to less than a trickle.. 

Actually your whole argument is based on defining Pakistan nuclear threshold as extremely low and India's extremely high..Which may be true because today India has much to lose in case of a nuclear exchange, and Pakistan pretty much has nothing and your argument of Pakistan behaving like a suicide bomber may well be true. But strategies need to factor in changing environments and unless you believe that Pakistan will always stay in the dumps like it is today, such a strategy is extremely flawed. Compound that with your assertion of nuking your own land (and your own civilians) to stop an advancing army inside your borders, and you have a failed strategy on your hands...




Secur said:


> Actually it is " great strategic plans being executed at wrong times " ...


More like a comedian with a bad sense of timing.

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## karan.1970

Slayer786 said:


> Well it should be India who should be ashamed of not winning the 1965 war when its generals were boasting of drinking a toast in Lahore Gymkhana by evening but had to retreat back to its borders with their tails behind their legs. LOL.
> And we still have Peak 5353, the highest peak from where 25km of Indian Occupied Highway is within our range. LOL.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Safriz said:


> *Nasr on 19th April 2011*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nasr on 29th May 2012*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See any difference?
> 
> 29th may 2012 Launcher *from another angle.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only two missiles are loaded in 4 tubes.
> 
> Now look at this Video grab picture (By Windjammer) *on 11 Feb 2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All 4 tubes have missiles.
> 
> 
> These Pictures should answer all Questions why Pakistan has *Test fired* the same missile 3 times.




So limited war option of India in Pakistan is also minimized.


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## MZUBAIR

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistan's forever dream of dictating the boundaries of war.. Did not work in 1965.. Not in Kargil.. Wont work in future either..



It worked in 1949 & 1965,

the boundries were changed, n we got Azad Kashmir




Next will be Jammu n Maqboza Kashmir

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## Kompromat

Any idea about the origin of the truck?


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## Bratva

Aeronaut said:


> Any idea about the origin of the truck?



Most probably Modified A-100 MRLS truck


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## Manas

congrats !!!

Whats the meaning of " *Nas*r " ??


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Manas said:


> congrats !!!
> 
> Whats the meaning of " *Nas*r " ??



NASR is an arabic word, means "Supporter".
It is also the name of Quranic verse "Surah Al-Nasr"

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## Safriz

Offtopic...But Apparently Pakistan has attained MARV technology and had it for some years now.





Note these Black circles on the side of Shaheen II warhead assembly...These look like side thrusters..The Re-entry vehicle can make course corrections post boost by using these sideways rocket motors,increasing Accuracy.Also the RV can change course mid-flight,confusing ABM.
Another thing is that this feature of Re-entry vehicle is needed for carrying Multiple warheads..as RV is able to manoever post boost and able to keep flying using a thruster while releasing Warheads at designated intervals angles and altitudes for different targets...So by the looks of Pakistan already has the ability of MIRV,but may be no need for it at the mo..


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## Kompromat

Manas said:


> congrats !!!
> 
> Whats the meaning of " *Nas*r " ??



"Assistance/Reinforcement"

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## MilSpec

karan.1970 said:


> Did you even pause to understand the context before replying ? Its very easy to say that Pakistan is insane and will cross the threshold by nuking an Indian battle formation and India will say Thank you and retreat.. Only fools or suicidal *generals will think and plan on those lines*.


 Haven't they always?


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## Capt.Popeye

Aeronaut said:


> "Assistance/Reinforcement"



Does'nt it mean- victory?
That is the name that pakistani think-tanks have assigned to Hatf 9.


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## Capt.Popeye

karan.1970 said:


> Dude, I am not contesting that CSD may get blown into a nuke response by Pakistan, but its idiotic to assume that Pakistan will cross the threshold and just because they use tactical nukes, India will not up the ante.. And thats what my response was. Pakistanis have a tendency to believe that they can define the boundaries of an engagement.. Like Pakistan's attack in 1965 banked on the assumption that India will not open the front on the IB. Similarly in Kargil, Musharraf assumed that India will not up the ante.. In both cases India did not conform to those assumptions and Pakistan lost the initiative. And its never the doctrines that are suicidal, but the doctrines which assume that the opponent will play by your rules are bound to fail.
> 
> btw, have you imagined this scenario.. Indian army opens a front in Punjab and one or more strike corps moves say 40-50 km inside Pakistani borders in Lahore sector. Your contention is that Pak will use Nukes to destroy this strike corps and India will not escalate the Nuke war.. Though the assumption is laughable, but for a moment lets go with it.. So India loses a strike corps, but remember Pakistan just nuked its most fertile area and made it unusable for next 100 years. Along with killing thousands of its own civilians. Think about it.. bet you never did
> 
> 
> 
> Can you post some details about Operation Brasstacks that back your contention from a impartial source? The only mobilization India did and backed away from was in 2002. And the reasons then were more political after Musharraf did a lame cop out by publicly promising to not back terrorism in India. Its funny how you conveniently forget the global embarrassments Pakistan had to go thru because of its shenanigans and only remember India's reactions .. Maybe your mind refuses to accept painful memories of you heads of state's public humiliation ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why Pakistan always loses the plot internationally. No long term thought process...It was not enough to make Pakistan the bad guy.. India needed itself to be seen as the Good guy too.. which all but killed Pakistan's stand on Kashmir. Post Kargil, the regular stream of statements about Kashmir from international sources which use to pop up at regular intervals has slowed down to less than a trickle..
> 
> Actually your whole argument is based on defining Pakistan nuclear threshold as extremely low and India's extremely high..Which may be true because today India has much to lose in case of a nuclear exchange, and Pakistan pretty much has nothing and your argument of Pakistan behaving like a suicide bomber may well be true. But strategies need to factor in changing environments and unless you believe that Pakistan will always stay in the dumps like it is today, such a strategy is extremely flawed. Compound that with your assertion of nuking your own land (and your own civilians) to stop an advancing army inside your borders, and you have a failed strategy on your hands...
> 
> 
> 
> More like a comedian with a bad sense of timing.



Anybody in todays world who dares (or actually dreams) of lowering the Nuclear Threshold is either a Lunatic or plainly Suicidal.

The concept of using Nasr as TNW is quite seriously flawed; for all of the above reasons and more. But that is for the architects and followers of that Doctrinal Concept to find out.

As a Battlefield Saturation Weapon; Nasr is okay. But any other use will simply ratchet up the stakes phenomenally; even out of control of the party making the call. So its simply a weapon of dubious utility in the end.

Just another "Ultimate Cyanide Pill"!

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## Thorough Pro

No. 

Nasr = Support/Reinforcement
Hataf = Lance of Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him)





Capt.Popeye said:


> Does'nt it mean- victory?
> That is the name that pakistani think-tanks have assigned to Hatf 9.



As long as it discourages the adversary from any misadventure, it achieves its purpose in a peaceful manner, than in my view is the best use of wepon...use without actual use.




Capt.Popeye said:


> Anybody in todays world who dares (or actually dreams) of lowering the Nuclear Threshold is either a Lunatic or plainly Suicidal.
> 
> The concept of using Nasr as TNW is quite seriously flawed; for all of the above reasons and more. But that is for the architects and followers of that Doctrinal Concept to find out.
> 
> As a Battlefield Saturation Weapon; Nasr is okay. But any other use will simply ratchet up the stakes phenomenally; even out of control of the party making the call. So its simply a weapon of dubious utility in the end.
> 
> Just another "Ultimate Cyanide Pill"!

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## alnaseh

Thorough Pro said:


> No.
> 
> Nasr = Support/Reinforcement
> Hataf = Lance of Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him)
> .



It really means victory and not support/reinforcement.

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## Windjammer

Safriz said:


> Offtopic...But Apparently Pakistan has attained MARV technology and had it for some years now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note these Black circles on the side of Shaheen II warhead assembly...These look like side thrusters..The Re-entry vehicle can make course corrections post boost by using these sideways rocket motors,increasing Accuracy.Also the RV can change course mid-flight,confusing ABM.
> Another thing is that this feature of Re-entry vehicle is needed for carrying Multiple warheads..as RV is able to manoever post boost and able to keep flying using a thruster while releasing Warheads at designated intervals angles and altitudes for different targets...So by the looks of Pakistan already has the ability of MIRV,but may be no need for it at the mo..


 @Safriz, Very interesting and informative observation indeed, check out the "Shaheen-1A" version, which is also reported to have the MARV capability.....the nose cone certainly looks different compared with the standard "Shaheen-1."

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## karan.1970

MZUBAIR said:


> It worked in 1949 & 1965,
> 
> the boundries were changed, n we got Azad Kashmir
> Next will be Jammu n Maqboza Kashmir



Another outcome of distorted history books 

1947 (not 1949) was Pakistan against the princely state of J&K and not against India. because of that Faux Pas, India has a large part of Kashmir which probably would have gone to Pakistan any way

1965.. No boundary got changed. Pakistan's plan to infiltrate and incite a revolt in Kashmir was repelled by India opening secondary front in Punjab and Rajasthan...

The boundaries though did get changed in 1971 and 1984 



MZUBAIR said:


> It worked in 1949 & 1965,
> 
> the boundries were changed, n we got Azad Kashmir
> Next will be Jammu n Maqboza Kashmir



Another outcome of distorted history books 

1947 (not 1949) was Pakistan against the princely state of J&K and not against India. because of that Faux Pas, India has a large part of Kashmir which probably would have gone to Pakistan any way

1965.. No boundary got changed. Pakistan's plan to infiltrate and incite a revolt in Kashmir was repelled by India opening secondary front in Punjab and Rajasthan...

The boundaries though did get changed in 1971 and 1984

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## Capt.Popeye

Thorough Pro said:


> As long as it discourages the adversary from any misadventure, it achieves its purpose in a peaceful manner, than in my view is the best use of wepon...use without actual use.



That idea of....use without actual use... is the principle behind Nuclear Weapons. 
However Nuclear Weapons have not prevented Conventional Wars; they have only prevented Nuclear Wars! 
We have had many examples of that all over the world since 1945; including those in the neighborhood.

So how will the Nuke-tipped Nasr be any different?


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## Imran Khan

congs to nation hope they reduce it more till we have nuclear artillery too


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Another outcome of distorted history books
> 
> 1947 (not 1949) was Pakistan against the princely state of J&K and not against India. because of that Faux Pas, India has a large part of Kashmir which probably would have gone to Pakistan any way
> 
> 1965.. No boundary got changed. Pakistan's plan to infiltrate and incite a revolt in Kashmir was repelled by India opening secondary front in Punjab and Rajasthan...
> *
> The boundaries though did get changed in 1971 and 1984*



Much closer to our life time, 1999 to be exact, a few peaks also changed hands but then, that would never find any mention in certain Gospel truth history taught in our vicinity.

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## Capt.Popeye

Imran Khan said:


> congs to nation hope they reduce it more till we have nuclear artillery too



Sure; why not? Next step; nuclear G-3s- IK.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Windjammer said:


> Much closer to our life time, 1999 to be exact, a few peaks also changed hands but then, that would never find any mention in certain Gospel truth history taught in our vicinity.



to be precise 3 peaks on LOC, out of 140 or so peaks you sneaked in, a great achievement indeed considering the number of soldiers you lost, international humiliation and isolation and more..

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## Bang Galore

Capt.Popeye said:


> Anybody in todays world who dares (or actually dreams) of lowering the Nuclear Threshold is either a Lunatic or plainly Suicidal.
> 
> *The concept of using Nasr as TNW is quite seriously flawed; for all of the above reasons and more. But that is for the architects and followers of that Doctrinal Concept to find out.*
> 
> As a Battlefield Saturation Weapon; Nasr is okay. But any other use will simply ratchet up the stakes phenomenally; even out of control of the party making the call. So its simply a weapon of dubious utility in the end.
> 
> Just another "Ultimate Cyanide Pill"!



That idea was always flawed, only an absolute fool would use any sort of nuclear weapon within their own country which might give India a chance to open up a large scale retaliatory nuclear strike. That would be the worst of all possible worlds because even the best case scenario is retaliatory nuclear strikes against the Pakistani forces. Not much of a best case scenario that.



SEAL said:


> Indians hysteria as usual and they are creating stupid things for their own satisfaction.
> 
> *If Pakistan use NASR against Indian IBG's then Indian forces will retreat peacefully, only a mentally retard person will risk a full scale nuclear war for what happened in battle field.* Its easy to say on internet, i bet in such situation every Indian will pray that things won't escalate beyond battlefield and cease fire. That's why Nasr is so special ideal weapon of choice against enemy evil designs.



...and only a mentally deficient chap will assume that the enemy will do what he wants him to do.

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## Capt.Popeye

Bang Galore said:


> ...and only a mentally deficient chap will assume that the enemy will do what he wants him to do.



Now is'nt that what Cowboy Musharraff and his Gang of 4 thought in 1999?
And then there is ZA Bhutto and his cohorts who conjured up Op Gibraltar to remember also, is'nt it?

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## illusion8

Imran Khan said:


> congs to nation hope they reduce it more till we have nuclear artillery too



How about hand held bazooka's firing nukes next Imran Bhai? 

This test must be in retaliation for India testing the SLBM, Pakistan tests Ghauri in reply to A 5 and Nasr in response to B O5...nice.


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## notorious_eagle

Contrarian said:


> Well, even in peace time Pakistani budget has not gone below 3%. So its quite unlikely to do so in the future as well. *Lets leave this issue altogether.*



I guess you are right, you are pretty adamant on your points and so am i. Only time will be the judge in regards to the chain of events.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Much closer to our life time, 1999 to be exact, a few peaks also changed hands but then, that would never find any mention in certain Gospel truth history taught in our vicinity.



Oh! Yes.. How could I forget.. Peak 5353 at the cost of international ridicule, Public humiliation of your head of state, and deaths of 4000 Pakistani soldiers (your Prime Minister's claim, not mine  )

Yes.. You win

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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> @Safriz, Very interesting and informative observation indeed, check out the "Shaheen-1A" version, which is also reported to have the MARV capability.....the nose cone certainly looks different compared with the standard "Shaheen-1."



That warhead design is called a biconical one. It reduces drag thereby increasing the speed of the missile or enabling it to follow a depressed trajectory.

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Oh! Yes.. How could I forget.. Peak 5353 at the cost of international ridicule, Public humiliation of your head of state, and deaths of 4000 Pakistani soldiers (your Prime Minister's claim, not mine  )
> 
> Yes.. You win



Indians have given a whole new meaning to distorting history and cherry picking.....firstly your own kind admit to at least four peaks still under Pakistani control and this 4000 figure embedded in your wishful thinking allegedly by the same person who claims he wasn't even aware of the operation....but hey, anything will do to float the Indian boat.

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## Secur

karan.1970 said:


> Dude, I am not contesting that CSD may get blown into a nuke response by Pakistan, but its idiotic to assume that Pakistan will cross the threshold and just because they use tactical nukes, India will not up the ante.. And thats what my response was. Pakistanis have a tendency to believe that they can define the boundaries of an engagement.. Like Pakistan's attack in 1965 banked on the assumption that India will not open the front on the IB. Similarly in Kargil, Musharraf assumed that India will not up the ante.. In both cases India did not conform to those assumptions and Pakistan lost the initiative. And its never the doctrines that are suicidal, but the doctrines which assume that the opponent will play by your rules are bound to fail.



Somehow , your mind is still stuck in the warfare of the third generation ... So , basically the entire premise of the CSD is flawed since it can lead upto a full scale nuclear war then , right ? ... Basically , India would have upped the ante to a very high level by invading the neighbor then , the next move will be made by Pakistan ... What else are you proposing ? ... Actually , it has very high likelihood of leading to a Mutual Assured Destruction scenario for the reason I have explained before ... No , that is not idiotic or far-from-reality to assume that India will retreat if it ever makes the mistake of crossing the borders and perhaps some thresholds , getting a couple IBG's or armored columns nuked and not backing off and eventually ending up on the point of no return , rationality somehow dictates here that no country would risk its entire population for some segments of the army  ... The nuclear poker of continue , risk a billion , retreat , save them ... Likewise , I have said before that Pakistan isn't planning to use nuclear weapons when the first IA soldiers crosses the borders , that is the assumption of your dear countrymen , not ours ... We are well aware of the conventional fighting capability and caliber of the seventh largest army in the world ... Pakistan can hold on its own without nukes and defend the motherland for weeks ... Both the times you mobilized your troops , we were ready at the border to welcome you , our geography grants us that particular advantage ... Actually , it is starting to appear to me that today Indians have a tendency to underestimate the adversary and overestimate themselves ... Read a few posts by your countrymen in this thread amongst many made on the same topic and you will end up reading that somehow " Pakistanis will welcome the invading army " , " Islamabad cant use nukes by any chance " , " Pakistan army will disband immediately " , " Without nukes , they cant hold for even a day "  ... Even the most senior Indian members always postulate the best case scenarios for themselves , why ? I do not know ... Is the " Shining India " delusion making them already feel like a super power ? ... Pakistan banked on the assumption of war limiting to the Kashmir region in '65 , I agree it was dead wrong ... But what happened in the Kargil one , did you dare cross even the LOC - forget the IB here ? No , the same nuclear deterrent prevented you then too , agree to it or not , it doesn't matter ... You ended up with more causalities than Pakistan whilst the Indian defense analysts and former Generals called for crossing atleast the LOC and cutting the supply lines ... What do you mean by India upping the ante then is beyond me because you were fighting for the whole time in your own controlled areas , not ours ... 

Some are just more than others and your thought-over doctrine is one of them !  We aren't hoping/asking for India to play by our rules , we just expect them to not make the foolish mistake of implementing this doctrine which is itself by its definition and objectives a recipe for catastrophic disaster ... 



karan.1970 said:


> btw, have you imagined this scenario.. Indian army opens a front in Punjab and one or more strike corps moves say 40-50 km inside Pakistani borders in Lahore sector. Your contention is that Pak will use Nukes to destroy this strike corps and India will not escalate the Nuke war.. Though the assumption is laughable, but for a moment lets go with it.. So India loses a strike corps, but remember Pakistan just nuked its most fertile area and made it unusable for next 100 years. Along with killing thousands of its own civilians. Think about it.. bet you never did



I bet you never really paid any attention to the geography classes at school since you are talking of heavy mechanized offensives in the Northern Punjab when the area's geography doesn't permit that in the first place ...  Go with a lighter force than that and Pakistan Army can make it worth your while for you , it is always difficult to mount an offensive there and relatively easy to defend them ... Whats next ? Would you talk of tanks rolling down the LOC and opening a front there ? The general area where the CSD can be/is most likely to be implemented is the Southern Punjab and Sindh where the IBG's and armored columns can be used effectively and where we are at a disadvantage and fortunately both are desert lands with almost negligible populations and zero infrastructure ... So nuking a desert land and neutralizing the adversary and at the same time defending the motherland and teaching the enemy a hard lesson isn't that big a price to pay ... @notorious_eagle explained it in better words in another thread _"Punjab serves as a natural impediment against advancing Armour. The topography, environment, vegetation and canals serve as a natural barrier for any advancing force and a wonderful force multiplier for the defending force. "_



karan.1970 said:


> Can you post some details about Operation Brasstacks that back your contention from a impartial source? The only mobilization India did and backed away from was in 2002. And the reasons then were more political after Musharraf did a lame cop out by publicly promising to not back terrorism in India. Its funny how you conveniently forget the global embarrassments Pakistan had to go thru because of its shenanigans and only remember India's reactions .. Maybe your mind refuses to accept painful memories of you heads of state's public humiliation ..


 Exactly what specific details do you need about Operation Brasstacks ? The 400,000 personnels of the Indian Army brought within the 100 miles of the borders of Pakistan ? Indian Navy commandos training near the sea-borders of my country ? The biggest mobilization since the WWII itself ? What was it if not a plan to attack Pakistan ? General Zia-ul-Haq warning that _" "If your forces cross our border by an inch, we are going to annihilate your cities. "_ ? ... Even the startling revelations by your army's general that it was Sunderjee's plan to pave way for an attack on Pakistan ... 

_According to General Hoon's memoirs, a letter was directed to Sundarji by Western Command, arguing that "when such a large exercise is conceived", the movement of Indian forces is going to attract the attention of Pakistan.[7] General Hoon maintained that, General Sundarji did not inform Prime minister Rajiv Gandhi about the scale of the operation and such details were hidden to him.[7] *Hoon also wrote in his memoir: "Brasstacks was no military exercise. It was a plan to build up the situation for a fourth war with Pakistan." Indian scholar, Paul Kapur further argues that during the Operation Brasstacks, Indian army persuaded multiple times, but unsuccessfully, to attack Pakistan.*[9]_

What should I call it now ?  Are you that ill informed of your own history ? Both Indian and Pakistani leaders have from time to time made statements that their respective territory wouldn't be used against each other ... Did it get any special if Musharraf said so after '02 in the wake of a crisis ?  ... The world then needed us more than ever and would never have supported India over Pakistan if a war ever happened ... Would you rather not be ashamed of mobilizing your army yet again which took almost a month , giving enough time for the PA to reach the border and making you lose 700+ personnels of Indian Army without firing a single shot and then forcing you to back off ? Cant attack a 5x smaller adversary even ? Painful memories coming to your mind now ? 



karan.1970 said:


> That's why Pakistan always loses the plot internationally. No long term thought process...It was not enough to make Pakistan the bad guy.. India needed itself to be seen as the Good guy too.. which all but killed Pakistan's stand on Kashmir. Post Kargil, the regular stream of statements about Kashmir from international sources which use to pop up at regular intervals has slowed down to less than a trickle..



Always ? Is it some another form of " delusions of grandeur " repeatedly demonstrated by your lot on this forum and other ones ? Pakistan fought against a super power and made it retreat without getting attacked or at worse nuked ... Just one amongst other examples ... Ok , Pakistan was the bad boy , I am asking what was stopping you from going all guns blazing and acquiring a few of the strategic territories on the LOC and bringing the Siachen deployment costs to almost negligible ? The International opinion was already in your favor , wasn't it ? You just wouldn't have tarnished it by crossing the border and then justifying it by citing Pakistan's aggression but something stopped you ? I am guessing nuky nuky nukes ! 



karan.1970 said:


> Actually your whole argument is based on defining Pakistan nuclear threshold as extremely low and India's extremely high..Which may be true because today India has much to lose in case of a nuclear exchange, and Pakistan pretty much has nothing and your argument of Pakistan behaving like a suicide bomber may well be true. But strategies need to factor in changing environments and unless you believe that Pakistan will always stay in the dumps like it is today, such a strategy is extremely flawed. Compound that with your assertion of nuking your own land (and your own civilians) to stop an advancing army inside your borders, and you have a failed strategy on your hands...



No , my whole argument as I have explained in my previous two posts is that " Pakistan owing to its geographic disadvantage of having no strategic depth and having most of its major cities and towns situated near borders , adding the size of the adversary it is fighting and its limited offensive capability has the more probability of getting its threshold crossed " hence has the higher probability of coming down to the point where " it has nothing to lose " but to take the " enemy down with it " and " inflicting unacceptable damage to the extent of even ceasing the existence of the adversary " ... Read " Samson's Option " ... Strategies are changed , refined with time but we are talking about the present , where did you see me declaring the strategy relevant for another 30 or 50 years ?  ... Pakistan is not in that worse state as portrayed by your media nor rivers of milk and honey are flowing in India ... Do not get me started on that ... The defense of the motherland isn't a suicidal idea , for we exist because of it ...

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## Secur

Windjammer said:


> firstly your own kind admit to at least four peaks still under Pakistani control



Actually , it has become six by the latest count  ... Only if kids even understand what does the causality figure of 4000 even means !


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## DroneMailini

Windjammer said:


> Indians have given a whole new meaning to distorting history and cherry picking.....firstly your own kind admit to at least four peaks still under Pakistani control and this 4000 figure embedded in your wishful thinking allegedly by the same person who claims he wasn't even aware of the operation....but hey, anything will do to float the Indian boat.



We need not do any cherry picking, your own military officials have been claiming it was a disaster, According to you every one who proves kargil was a disaster has got personnel vengeance against Musharraf.



Secur said:


> Actually , it has become six by the latest count  ... Only if kids even understand what does the causality figure of 4000 even means !



We very well know what is the meaning of 4000? and we very well know what is the meaning of 90000?

By the way India is not shining but un like your country, regularly smashed by Super Powers.

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## Secur

DroneMailini said:


> We very well know what is the meaning of 4000? and we very well know what is the meaning of 90000?
> 
> By the way India is not shining but un like your country, regularly smashed by Super Powers.



Are you asking or telling , just like the rest of your lot without having an idea of what you are talking about and what happened/happens under what circumstances ? 

I do not care whether it is shining or not , I just said you guys need to get off your high heels ...

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## GoodBoy

DroneMailini said:


> We need not do any cherry picking, your own military officials have been claiming it was a disaster, According to you every one who proves kargil was a disaster has got personnel vengeance against Musharraf.
> 
> 
> 
> We very well know what is the meaning of 4000? and we very well know what is the meaning of 90000?
> 
> By the way India is not shining but un like your country, regularly smashed by Super Powers.



Pakistan is always doing wrong calculations in war on the basis of wrong assumptions.

And the result is in front of us.


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Indians have given a whole new meaning to distorting history and cherry picking.....firstly your own kind admit to at least four peaks still under Pakistani control and this 4000 figure embedded in your wishful thinking allegedly by the same person who claims he wasn't even aware of the operation....but hey, anything will do to float the Indian boat.



Ok...4 peaks for the price of 4000 dead Pakistani soldiers sounds like a good bargain to you..? Your people dude.. Enjoy those peaks in good health.. 

And Dude, the word of your Prime minister needs to carry some weight, specially since he is not being tried in murder cases and is not a declared fugitive.. add to that the real truth of kargil is slowly but surely coming out as one after another Pakistani generals are going on record to say how pathetic was that plan in execution and leadership.. 

So if he says 4000 Pakistani soldiers died on the peaks of Kargil, I will take his word over the word of a criminal general and a faceless collection of pixels called Windjammer 

but then some one once told me...." WHatever floats your boat"

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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> Ok...4 peaks for the price of 4000 dead Pakistani soldiers sounds like a good bargain to you..? Your people dude.. Enjoy those peaks in good health..
> 
> And Dude, the word of your Prime minister needs to carry some weight, specially since he is not being tried in murder cases and is not a declared fugitive.. add to that the real truth of kargil is slowly but surely coming out as one after another Pakistani generals are going on record to say how pathetic was that plan in execution and leadership..
> 
> So if he says 4000 Pakistani soldiers died on the peaks of Kargil, I will take his word over the word of a criminal general and a faceless collection of pixels called Windjammer
> 
> but then some one once told me...." WHatever floats your boat"



4000 dead soldiers? karan boy ive debunked ur A$$ several times..............Its time u grow up and stop pulling out figures outta ur a$$.

You know what after 2 years ive realised tht nixon was right abt u guys! 

A dogs tail can never be straightened even if u put it in a pipe for a billion freakin years!


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 4000 dead soldiers? karan boy ive debunked ur A$$ several times..............Its time u grow up and stop pulling out figures outta ur a$$.



Mate, these figures are from your Prime minister .. Not me.. Blame his a$$.. Not mine 

Kargil probe body had sought Musharraf



> But the exact losses suffered by Pakistan army in the Kargil war are difficult to assess. While the Pakistan Army conceded that 453 soldiers were killed, the US Department of State estimated close to 700 fatalities. *According to Nawaz Sharif, there were over 4,000 fatalities*, while the PML-N White Paper claimed that over 3,000 Mujahideens, officers and soldiers were killed.

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## Windjammer

DroneMailini said:


> We need not do any cherry picking, your own military officials have been claiming it was a disaster, According to you every one who proves kargil was a disaster has got personnel vengeance against Musharraf.



A little thought PERHAPS on what some Indian Military officials have to say on fudged up records, falsified encounters, not to mention the Coffin debacle...if that's not cherry picking then the only term is denial.


> We very well know what is the meaning of 4000? and we very well know what is the meaning of 90000?
> 
> By the way India is not shining but un like your country, regularly smashed by Super Powers.



Since you are travelling back 'n forward in time, the figure of 12 should also mean something to you....rather 12 rag tag men sailing right down your throat and holding your financial capital hostage for two days......so let's not digress from the topic. !!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> Mate, these figures are from your Prime minister .. Not me.. Blame his a$$.. Not mine
> 
> Kargil probe body had sought Musharraf




Comming from a man who pays 5000 rs as tax? his retarded crap might boast ur tiny ego but is certainly not the truth....


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Comming from a man who pays 5000 rs as tax? his retarded crap might boast ur tiny ego but is certainly not the truth....



I dont know how much tax he pays.. But Pakistani citizens elected him as their leader and representative. If anyone's ego is in question, it would be Pakistan's and not mine, since he made this statement about a time when he was the Prime Minister of your country...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> I dont know how much tax he pays.. But Pakistani citizens elected him as their leader and representative. If anyone's ego is in question, it would be Pakistan's and not mine, since he made this statement about a time when he was the Prime Minister of your country...



India also elected the italian waitress and con gress than why wine?


4000 lol/......... we know who ran out of coffins and run to israel for ammo..... but nobody can find these invisible 4000 casualities! the casuality list is on ISPR website and doesnt exceed 400.

While comming from an indian whose army took an year for just comin to the borders and in process killing 1200 + or was it 1900? soldiers and losing billions of dollars is kinda rich....... or should i also count the fake encounters with PA and the medals distributed like candy to indian soldiers? lol even awarding veer chakra to a dead soldier who was later found alive?

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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> India also elected the italian waitress and con gress than why wine?
> 
> 
> 4000 lol/......... we know who ran out of coffins and run to israel for ammo..... but nobody can find these invisible 4000 casualities! the casuality list is on ISPR website and doesnt exceed 400.
> 
> While comming from an indian whose army took an year for just comin to the borders and in process killing 1200 + or was it 1900? soldiers and losing billions of dollars is kinda rich....... or should i also count the fake encounters with PA and the medals distributed like candy to indian soldiers? lol even awarding veer chakra to a dead soldier who was later found alive?



Dude, you are barking up the wrong tree (this is an idiom and not an abuse). These are not figures provided by me and hence I do not need to back them up. Its Pakistan's top most leader at the time of Kargil. The Chief Executive of Pakistan who believes that 4000 of his army men were killed because of Musharraf's misadventure. Why are you ranting all over the place. Abuse him if you want to .. Or the Criminal General who caused those 4000 army men to die...


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> @Safriz, Very interesting and informative observation indeed, check out the "Shaheen-1A" version, which is also reported to have the MARV capability.....the nose cone certainly looks different compared with the standard "Shaheen-1."


Yes sir..Our missiles are full of advanced features which we choose to ignore and downplay due to our own Inferiority complex.
Look at Ghaznavi's Nose cone and note this humble Spike at the top.







A similar Spike was attached to earlier SLBM Tridents to reduce atmospheric drag as the SLBM version was designed to follow depressed trajectory and spent much time inside atmosphere..
Ghaznavi has a similar feature due to similar reasons..The missile spends most of its flight path inside atmosphere and hence the Drag..which is reduced many folds by this humble spike and makes the job of the lift generating fins much easier..

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Ok...4 peaks for the price of 4000 dead Pakistani soldiers sounds like a good bargain to you..? Your people dude.. Enjoy those peaks in good health..
> 
> And Dude, the word of your Prime minister needs to carry some weight, specially since he is not being tried in murder cases and is not a declared fugitive.. add to that the real truth of kargil is slowly but surely coming out as one after another Pakistani generals are going on record to say how pathetic was that plan in execution and leadership..
> 
> So if he says 4000 Pakistani soldiers died on the peaks of Kargil, I will take his word over the word of a criminal general and a faceless collection of pixels called Windjammer
> 
> but then some one once told me...." WHatever floats your boat"


Yea whatever floats your boat indeed....mate you can gloat all the nonsense to your heart's content, but it doesn't require an Indian mindset to conclude that there can be a discrepancy or cover up of few hundred but certainly not several thousands specially when a close knit unit like NLI was involved, unlike other units, majority if not all belong to a certain area of the country. In any case, it's a waste of space convincing some one who prefers to fire over others shoulders.
Since all the fighting took place inside Indian territory, suffice to say all the deaths must have also happened there.....wonder how many bodies did the Indians recovered or did the PA managed to recover and retrieve 4000 bodies.... pathetic allegations to say the least.

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## K-Xeroid

karan.1970 said:


> Dude, I havent seen anyone strongly countering your Prime Minister's claim about 4000 deaths in media or otherwise. No one has called him out on this.. Why ? And he is right there in Islamabad..Not hiding away in London..Why debate with me on the words of your own Prime Minister of 1999 and one of the favorites for this year's elections too..


Mate , Its because No one even consider him a credible person and his statements on Kargil matters . Otherwise we always get different claims from different political sources . Its a matter of interest that indian media have highlighted Sharif's statements instead of any other Pakistani politician . Kargil can not be termed as well planned action but its also cannot be said a failure . Our objectives of gaining attention on Kashmir issue had been achieved at then and we also gained few strategic positions as a bonus .


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## SQ8

*Any further discussion on Kargil is an automatic infraction.*

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## Thorough Pro

I would disagree, the facts show that nuclear weapons have indeed prevented major wars (excluding border skirmishes) of all kinds. In indo-pak case, border skirmishes would contnue for forsesable future, which is more a result of paranoia and negativity on both sides. 




Capt.Popeye said:


> That idea of....use without actual use... is the principle behind Nuclear Weapons.
> However *Nuclear Weapons have not prevented Conventional Wars; they have only prevented Nuclear Wars*!
> We have had many examples of that all over the world since 1945; including those in the neighborhood.
> 
> So how will the Nuke-tipped Nasr be any different?


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## Thorough Pro

alnaseh said:


> It really means victory and not support/reinforcement.



Translate this in english,

*NASR*UM MINALLAH-E-WA *FATHUN* QAREEB.

With ALLAH's support/assistance, victory is near.




Capt.Popeye said:


> Sure; why not? Next step; nuclear G-3s- IK.



you beat me to it.

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## eliyaas

It is the best strategy to counter indians cold start


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## Ayush

eliyaas said:


> It is the best strategy to counter indians cold start



welcome to PDF mate. where u from in Kashmir? ?



eliyaas said:


> It is the best strategy to counter indians cold start



welcome to PDF mate. where u from in Kashmir? ?


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## Zarvan

mafiya said:


> Don't know why but there is a weird resmemblance b/w Nasr and CM400 AKG


Their is no resemblance in this missile Man they are two different missiles and shape are also different and roles are also not same


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