# Pakistan Missile Technology



## EagleEyes

*PAKISTAN&#39;S MISSILE TECHNOLOGY*
genlodi 

Patron Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR FS LODI
goes over the whole gamut of the advent of missile technology in Pakistan


On April 6, 1998 Pakistan carried out a successful flight-test of a medium range surface ballistic missile. It is the fifth in the current Hatf series and has been named Ghauri. It has an optimum range of 1500 kilometers and can carry a payload of about 700 kg. The missile is in the research and development phase and is part of the Integrated Missile Research and Development Programme. The test confers on Pakistan a credible indigenous missile capability.

Hatf V (Ghauri) was fired from Malute, near the city of Jhelum, about 76 miles south of the Capital Islamabad at 7.25 a.m. It climbed to a height of 350 kilometers before taking the direction to its planned impact area in the desert of Balochistan where it hit the designated target at 7.33 a.m. after a flight of eight minutes. Hatf V (Ghauri) missile weight 16 tons and consists of 13 tons of fuel, a one ton warhead and the remaining weight is of the casing and equipment.

Pakistan started planning its missile programme in early 1987, on the explicit information gained that India was on the road to pursue its missile programmes, writes General Mirza Aslam Beg, a former chief of the Army Staff in his article Ghauri won&#39;t rock the region&#39; (DAWN April 27, 1998) General Beg continues Its authenticity was checked and rechecked. General Zia ul Haq , who was the then president, in consultation with the concerned departments, took two crucial decisions. The first one was based on moral principles that Pakistan would not develop chemical weapons. The second one was to build missiles of short and medium range capabilities, to be equipped with proper guidance systems.

General Beg says that the name Hatf for the surface-to-surface missile was selected by the Research and Development (R & D) Committee of the General Headquarters (GHQ) of the Pakistan Army, as it was the name of the lance of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) which was used in many ghazva , and had the unique distinction of never missing its target. Similarly the name Anza, a lance of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was selected for a similar consideration, for the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile, which was also developed during the same period. later the anti-tank Baktarshikan missile was also produced.

The testing of Hatf V (Ghauri) missile is the result of the dedication, hard work and single minded devotion to a cause displayed by our scientists and engineers working on the research and development of missile technology. Initially Hatf I was developed with a range of 80 kilometers and a payload of 500 kgs. Efforts continued to improve its performance, resulting in Hatf II with an enhanced range of 250 kms and the same payload of 500 kgs. Both were free flight missiles with inertial guidance systems following a ballistic trajectory. Hatf II was produced in 1989 and displayed at the Pakistan Day parade of March 23, 1990 and 1991.

The testing of Hatf III in July last year was a major break-through in missile development in Pakistan. It has a range of 600 kms with a payload of 500 kgs and a proper terminal guidance system giving it an accuracy of 0.1 per cent, as the circular error probability ( CEP) at 600 kms, similar to the Indian Prithvi surface to surface ballistic missile at 250 kms. This meant that Hatf III was to be controlled by an on-board computer for accuracy and was not to follow a purely ballistic trajectory. The main features of Hatf III missile are its two-stage rocket ability for war-head separation, a terminal guidance system and five different types of warheads. The most difficult part of the missile was the its guidance system which was developed entirely by Pakistani engineers and scientists.

By successfully test-firing Hatf V (Ghauri) missile overland within Pakistan territory our engineers and scientists have amply demonstrated their own technical skills and accuracy of the missile. India on the other hand tests her missiles from the missile range at Chandipur-on-Sea on the Orissa coast, and these are fired into the Bay of Bengal. India successfully tested its intermediate range ballistic missile Agni&#39; on May 22, 1989, after two failed attempts to test the system earlier in the year.

In a successful first launch of Hatf V (Ghauri) missile, which is capable of reaching targets 1500 kms away, Pakistani scientists and engineers have demonstrated their skill and mastery of the modern and up to date missile technology. It means our scientists and engineers have been able to overcome the problems presented by the first four major sub-systems of a medium-range ballistic missile. These are the rocket boosters, navigation and guidance system, missile flight control system and the re-entry vehicle. The fifth is of course the warhead. These sub-systems can be tested separately but it is important for success to integrate them and to flight-test the complete missile system as was done in the case of Hatf V (Ghauri) using a dummy warhead.

Gregory Koblentz, a junior fellow with the Nuclear Non-proliferation project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, D.C. in his article Theater Missile Defence and South Asia&#39;, A Volatile Mix&#39;, published in the Non-Proliferation Review, vol 4, No. 3 of 1997 writes According to the Pentagon, Pakistan&#39;s missile programmes are driven by a desire to augment limited offensive air capabilities against India, which holds a nearly 3.1 advantage in combat aircraft, and to field a more effective delivery system. Therefore, without a credible aerial delivery capability, Pakistan will have to rely mainly on ballistic missiles to overwhelm India&#39;s defences.

Foreign experts believe that India and Pakistan are fast developing ballistic missiles. As with other weapons programmes, Pakistani and Indian pursuit of ballistic missiles is largely driven by the perception that these missiles are necessary to counter their rival&#39;s capabilities. India&#39;s development of Medium Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBMs) is also motivated by its desire to be recognized as a great power and strategic competitor with China, they feel.

India started its missile programme in 1983. The Pakistan-specific&#39; short range surface-to-surface ballistic missile Prithvi&#39; was first tested in 1988 and after conducting about 15 tests to perfect it, the production of the missile was started in 1994. The most advanced long range Prithvi missile was test-fired by India in January 1996. With its longer range of about 150 miles the missile can strike most major cities of Pakistan five minutes after launch. A shorter range version of the missile, which can carry a 1000 kms warhead approximately 90 miles, was already in limited production. Both versions are highly mobile, and although India insists that all Prithvis will be tipped by conventional explosives, both are capable of carrying nuclear warheads. Washington was so concerned that the Prithvi missile launch would provoke a strong Pakistani response that Deputy U.S. National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger was dispatched to Islamabad in February 1996 to counsel restraint.

The arrival of the new Prithvi, said the U.S. News & World Report of February 12, 1996, will qualitatively change the nature of the strategic balance ( between India and Pakistan), because ballistic missiles reach targets faster than other weapons and are difficult to defend against. The report goes on to say, Indian Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao (at the time) has been careful not to openly acknowledge Prithvi production or deployment. But sources in the Indian Defence Ministry say the first short-range missiles already have been handed over to the Army, which has set up a special unit called the 33rd Missile Group in the southern city of Secunderabad. The report concludes by saying Pakistan, a narrow country that is vulnerable even to short-range missiles, has struggled to keep pace.

On May 27, 1997, without any provocation India sent a Russian made MIG-25R military reconnaissance aircraft deep into Pakistan airspace. This was followed a week later by the move forward to the Pakistan border of India&#39;s ground-to-ground ballistic missile Prithvi&#39;, as reported by U.S. officials in Washington on June 4, 1997, who disclosed that India&#39;s military forces recently moved a handful of medium-range ballistic to a prospective launch site near the Pakistani border. U.S. intelligence have concluded that fewer than a dozen of them are now located near the city of Jullundur in the state of East Punjab in north west India.

We know that the missiles have been moved, and in the wrong direction said one US official who is familiar with intelligence reports on the matter. This is going to prompt a bad reaction-even an overreaction in Pakistan, said another official. The US officials expressed uncertainty why the missiles were moved to that site at a time when senior Indian and Pakistani political officials have been moving toward an improved dialogue and a possible reduction of political tension. The Washington Post also reported in its issue of June 3, 1997, deployment of the Indian Ballistic Missiles at a prospective launch site near Pakistan&#39;s border.

As a consequence the Pakistan Foreign Office on June 3, 1997 expressed serious concern at the deployment of medium-range ballistic missile, Prithvi, by India near Pakistan&#39;s borders and said it reserved the right to take measures for its security. The statement said The deployment of Prithvi missiles entails a qualitative change in the security environment in South Asia and could trigger a dangerous ballistic arms race in the region.

The Pakistan Foreign Minister Mr. Gohar Ayub Khan in a letter to the US Secretary of State Ms. Madeline Albright said that the deployment of Prithvi missiles by India near Pakistan border has created a dangerous security environment combined with a potential of unleashing a missile race in South Asia. He said India appears to have been encouraged by the discriminatory American Legislation against Pakistan that has resulted in a serious military imbalance in the region. The letter continued by saying that the Indian missile threat leaves us no choice but to take appropriate measures.

India denied that any missiles had been deployed near the Pakistan border. The Indian Prime Minister at the time Mr. I.K. Gujral while talking to the representative of the weekly India Abroad&#39; in Washington on July 14, 1997 said that India had undertaken missile manufacturing for a long time and had not made a secret of it. India&#39;s present storage capacities have been filled. Since it could not spend money building more storage capacities, the Jullundur capacity was used for Prithvi. This statement is in complete variance with the US disclosure based on the intelligence estimates that a handful of medium-range ballistic missiles had been moved to their prospective launch sites near the Pakistani border. They have in fact been issued to the No. 60 Artillery Regiment located in the area for some time.

Violation of Pakistan&#39;s air space and the deployment of medium-range ballistic missiles by India near the Pakistan border created some misgivings in the official and political circles in the country and some alarm in the public&#39;s mind. The test-firing of Haft III rocket by Pakistan in July 1997 seems to have been a natural consequence for a small country safeguarding its security interests in the absence of any outside support.

In the meantime India had decided to acquire the Russian made S-300V air defence and anti-ballistic missile system. This is similar to the US patriot missile and is capable of targeting incoming enemy aircraft and ballistic missiles. The agreement was signed by India&#39;s former Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav during his visit to Russia on July 14, 1997, heading a high-powered defence delegation consisting of the Secretary of Defence and the Vice-Chiefs of the three defence services.

The daily Telegraph of London had reported that the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) had been instructed by the government of India to carry out detailed evaluation of the advanced technologies of the Russian S 300V anti-ballistic missile in consultation with the Army and Air Force for possible incorporation in the later version of the Indian Akash&#39; surface-to-surface missile to provide it anti-ballistic missile capability.

India started her ambitious Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) in July 1983 with an original cost of production at Rs. 3,380 million which has since been revised to Rs. 7840 million. The original plan was to design and develop Prithvi (Earth) Medium range surface-to-surface ballistic missile; Trishul (Trident) anti-ship missile; Akash (Sky) surface-to-surface air missile; Nag (Cobra) anti-tank missile and Agni ( Fire) an Intermediate-range Ballistic Missile (IRBM). However later Surya and Sagarika have been added to the IGMPD. The Surya is an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a range of 12,000 to 20,000 km, while Sagarika has range of 300 km and is a submarine launched ballistic missile. The Navy also wants a redesigned Prithvi ballistic missile for its use.

The hectic missile activity going on in India is a cause of great concern for her small neighbours. It is therefore the duty of every government to protect the country from foreign aggression and internal subversion. It was therefore appropriate and timely for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to declare, while addressing the National Defence College in Islamabad on April 6, 1998, his resolve to make Pakistan a strong, stable, prosperous and democratic country. Defence of Pakistan was being given priority as he considered a strong defence essential for economic development of the country.

The new BJP-led government in India has aggravated to a large extent Pakistan&#39;s defence problems owing to additional provocation and threats emanating from India. This is evident from its election promises and the action taken and contemplated on assuming power. Mr. Savita Pande, a research fellow at India&#39;s Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis writing in The Pioneer&#39; of New Delhi in its issue of February 17, 1998 says that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), in its 31- page manifesto has promised to re-evaluate the country&#39;s nuclear policy and exercise the option to induct nuclear weapons. It has also declared its intent to expedite the development of the Agni series of ballistic missiles (India&#39;s intermediate range missile with a range of 2,500 kms). The author goes on to say that the party&#39;s (BJP) nuclear agenda can no longer be dismissed as mere pre-poll propaganda. As BJP&#39;s attaining power in India will place it in a position to call the shots in nuclear and strategic issues. The author concludes with the following words. By mentioning the completion of the Agni programme in the same breath as the induction of nuclear weapons, the BJP has made its posture more credible both inside and globally. How soon will the BJP government carry out its election promises is the deadly question which is receiving the urgent attention of India&#39;s small neighbours. The situation is also being watched by the Western government who have interest in South Asia and the region around it.

Russia is helping India to build a Sea-launched ballistic missile system that can carry a nuclear warhead and strike deep into Pakistan, the New York Times&#39; (NYT) reported on April 27, 1998. In an exclusive report the Times&#39; said India was getting Russian assistance since last three years. The newspaper quoting an official of the US administration said, despite assurances from Russia that its scientists were not contributing restricted technology to India&#39;s missile programme, the assistance had continued. US Vice President Al Gore and other senior administration officials had appealed to Russia to halt the support, but Russia paid little attention to it. India, the NYT noted, has long had military ties to Russia, it has been trying for years to develop a series of more powerful missiles. Although not tested , the sea-launched missile, the Sagarika, whose name means Oceanic in Hindi, is said to have a range of nearly 200 miles and is meant to be launched from submerged submarines.

The NYT said this would be a technological breakthrough for India in its arms race with Pakistan. American intelligence officials regard the simmering rivalry one of the most dangerous flash points for conventional or even nuclear war. Clearly this (Russian) cooperation with India raises questions said a senior US administration official, who, as with others, insisted on anonymity, because of political sensitivities and to protect American intelligence sources. Another officials who tracked the reports said the Russian help to India had included significant engineering services as well as parts and equipment necessary to build and launch the missile, said the Times.

It should be appreciated that India is making an all out effort to develop a large-scale missile industry capable of browbeating and dominating South Asia and the region around it. Missile technology was freely transferred from Western sources and is now being done by the Russian. India&#39;s acquisition of missiles and other high-profile defence equipment is well beyond her legitimate defence requirements. It poses a valid and active threat to the independence of her small neighbours. It is with this background that the successful test-firing of Pakistan&#39;s Hatf V (Ghauri) missile had been welcomed with some enthusiasm by the entire nation. The development of missile technology will give strength to the Prime Minister&#39;s resolve to make Pakistan militarily strong and giving priority to defence, as it contributes enormously to the well being of the country and its economic development. It must be remembered that weakness has over the ages invited aggression whereas adequate strength has deterred it.

The significance of Pakistan&#39;s missile technology resulting in the test-firing of Hatf V (Ghauri) and the impact it is likely to have on regional, particularly South Asian defence capabilities and the balance it will create has been discussed in great details in official circles and the press of both India and Pakistan. The upshot is, that at present India&#39;s Pakistan-specific Prithvi missile deployed on our borders covers most of the important towns, airfields and communication centres in Pakistan.

When Hatf V (Ghauri) missile is deployed in Pakistan it will cover most of India except its eastern and southern portion and the coast, along the Bay of Bengal. It will deprive India of the advantage of strategic depth that it enjoys at present in relation to Pakistan. It will therefore give Pakistan a degree of defence parity that has been reducing in the last few years. Pakistan will now be in a position to hit back effectively if subjected to aggression by India and inflict unacceptable damage to India&#39;s important and vulnerable areas and particularly those areas which were hitherto considered safe, owing to the distance from the Pakistan border.

This should give any potential aggressor cause for genuine concern and caution its military planners.

In the modern defence concept, the missile system is the most essential element. In fact it is now the core of any viable defence structure and the cutting edge of an adequate defence capability of any nation. It cannot therefore be ignored by the defence planners. In Pakistan&#39;s security environment an adequate missile defence will prove an effective and reliable deterrent. The essence of deterrence worldwide, is a country&#39;s power to retaliate in kind. It was after all, the power of deterrence that prevented a third World War between the Western allies and the Soviet empire for over 50 years. In case of South Asia deterrence should provide the foundation for lasting peace and security on the basis of sovereign equality of nations and in accordance with the charter of the United Nations.

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## RAPTOR

Excellent article webby!!:thumbsup:


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## Neo

Thanks for the article webbie!
Its a good read! :thumbsup:


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## Lilo

I have a question...

Why is pakistan not pursuing civilian space tech as aggressively as it is developing its missile tech...??

It could have build atleast a PSLV type vehicle if it had developed its civilian tech concurrently with the missile tech.

Doesnt it realise the huge market potential of the civilian space industry? . If it could capture even a small % of the market share it could be a huge foreign exchange earner in the long term..


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## Zeeshan S.

Why wouldn't Pakistan purse civilian space technology? The joint programs will be taken place with China as Pakistan doesn't have the proper infrastructure setup, and things required to launch. 

Pakistan might have the capability to launch, but what to send into space is a question which in which Pakistan lacks.


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## Mansoor A Qureshi

Thanks bro for sharing this valuable info sharing with us....


You rock


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## master_fx

too long, is making me dizzy.......


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## Samudra

Hi Webby.

I guess Lodi is still confused about the exact specs of Hatf-V Ghauri.



> It has an optimum range of 1500 kilometers and can carry a payload of about 700 kg


 


> Hatf V (Ghauri) missile weight 16 tons and consists of 13 tons of fuel, a one ton warhead and the remaining weight is of the casing and equipment.


 
700 Kgs or 1000 kgs? 
The RV perhaps...



> According to the Pentagon, Pakistan's missile programmes are driven by a desire to augment limited offensive air capabilities against India, which holds a nearly 3.1 advantage in combat aircraft, and to field a more effective delivery system


 
It is important to deploy the missiles with the units in the first place.We havent seen much except perhaps for one unit.

A Question.
Do we have reports of Pakistani Army personnel carrying out a trial? (User trials)



> A shorter range version of the missile, *which can carry a 1000 kms warhead approximately 90 miles*, was already in limited production


 
Surely, Lodi needs a proof reader.:biggrin: 



> India denied that any missiles had been deployed near the Pakistan border.


 
False.
When some American called up to enquire Gujral he merely said that we had to deploy our missiles somewhere and that Jalandhar was not in that place you call Timbkutu.

[Ref.Weapons of Peace.Author Raj Chengappa]



> The author goes on to say that the party's (BJP) nuclear agenda can no longer be dismissed as mere pre-poll propaganda.


 
With the way things have gone in the past I can assure you that our 'agenda' does not change according to the pre-poll promises or stated policies of specific parties.

Narasimha Rao, too, was close to conducting a nuclear test.

So, now that I've made one post I'll go back to my exams and reappear a few moons later.


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## Kaiser

Pakistan and India might as well have a ICBM right know but both are to afraid to test it incase of sanctions


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## melb4aust

Kaiser said:


> Pakistan and India might as well have a ICBM right know but both are to afraid to test it incase of sanctions


 
Yeah im a bit concern about that as well. Like in past I wasn't expecting Pakistan to develope a cruise missile, that was kind of surprise:disappointed: and im sure they are capable of further more surprises like that.


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## Kaiser

melb4aust said:


> Yeah im a bit concern about that as well. Like in past I wasn't expecting Pakistan to develope a cruise missile, that was kind of surprise:disappointed: and im sure they are capable of further more surprises like that.


 
Just wait until Independance day and IDEAS

You guys are gonna be up for ALOT of surprises


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## Neo

I don't understand the concern for India having ICBM nor the need for us to develop any.
Pakistan is already under the range of existing Indian missiles and we can reach 90% of India.
Once the Tipu (range 4.000-5.000km) is tested, we'll have the ability to strike beyond Andaman and Israel and thats how far it goes.
We believe in minimum deterrance and have no ambition nor the means to become a global power. 
For India its a different story, they have the ambition and will develop ICBM's intime, but again we shouldn't be concerned as they will not be used against us.

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## Kaiser

It is always good to have deterance against any aggression from any nation in the world


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## Neo

What about the consequences once we start developping ICBM's.
Once we get and demonstrate the ability that we can target points in Europe or even in the USA, Pakistan will be treated as a potential threat to them bringing us into isolation.
I'm not sure if we're willing to risk that.


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## Kaiser

That is why if pakistan ever developes ICBMs (which is probaly has done already or is working on) then it will be kept a secret

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## sigatoka

Kaiser said:


> That is why if pakistan ever developes ICBMs (which is probaly has done already or is working on) then it will be kept a secret


 
China has only around 20 ICBM's, its very expensive and difficult to build. India is at least five years away from a "true" ICBM and Pakistan at least 8 years. 

I dont think if they made it they would hide it, after all every ballistic missile is shown at every military parade there is. 

I think Pakistan's approach is the right one, trying to put nuclear cruise missiles on submarines which will enable all the Eastern African continent (including Egypt) and the Indonesia and Australia's western coast to come within range. This is much cheaper than trying to quickly build ICBM and makes use of a cruise missile which is already developed (sunk cost) and the submarine can be bought from overseas. 

No nation will help Pakistan build ICBM but are more than willing to sell subs which could be used to deliver cruise missiles. 

For the same reason Pak. should acquire a single air refueling craft to enable Pak. nuclear capable F-16's to strike at very long distances.


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## melb4aust

sigatoka said:


> China has only around 20 ICBM's, its very expensive and difficult to build. India is at least five years away from a "true" ICBM and Pakistan at least 8 years.


Quite true...otherwise a possibility:thumbsup: 


sigatoka said:


> I dont think if they made it they would hide it, after all every ballistic missile is shown at every military parade there is.


Not entirely necessary


sigatoka said:


> No nation will help Pakistan build ICBM but are more than willing to sell subs which could be used to deliver cruise missiles.


China will, and infact is helping pakistan


sigatoka said:


> For the same reason Pak. should acquire a single air refueling craft to enable Pak. nuclear capable F-16's to strike at very long distances.


We actually dont need long range missles or aircrafts as Pakistan is not an offensive country. What ever they are buliding is purely for their defence not to attack or threat any other country deliberately. Infact to realize other nations to stay away from Pakistan. Simple... , Dont ignore the politics as well.

For india its not different at all. Pakistan is just trying to maintain the military and power balance in the region. Otherwise the one nation can threat the other, because of this inbalance of military power. 

You're above points are quite valid and may be the best way to have this long range facility. But again this is not entirely the purpose.


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## sigatoka

melb4aust said:


> For india its not different at all. Pakistan is just trying to maintain the military and power balance in the region. Otherwise the one nation can threat the other, because of this inbalance of military power.


 
I would agree with you but the cost of nuclear weapons and f-16 is already sunk (that is it is already built) by purchasing a single air-refueling aircraft (cost couldnt be more than $80 milllion to purchase and reconfigure around ten F-16's). 

With 80million Pakistan will have another delivery platform for its nukes. It will make Pak. weapons more credible. 

As well the ability to stike Egypt, East Africa, Australia and Indonesia ensures that those Nations will always take into account Pak. interests more seriously. 

Look at Iraq, without robust WMD capabilites, it was crushed like an ant. For robust WMD cap. nation needs robust delivery system across all platforms, ballistic, cruise, subs and aircraft. 

Its pretty cheap too compared to pure conventional power projection. A single Aircraft Carrier will cost more than purchasing refueling aircraft or subs.


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## Kaiser

Pakistan will need to make a ICBM sooner or later. Subs are different they are to be made to carry BM with 4000-6000 km range not cruise missile with 1000-1500 km range.

Subs are slower ballistic missiles can be deliverd to the target within a matter of minutes after launch. Pakistan will have to make a ICBM to become a reconised nuclear power and major one.

So I think its better that Pakistan makes ICBM with some chinese help instead of purchasing boomers which instead we can purchase more SSK's which we are badly in need of.


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## A.Rahman

Kaiser said:


> So I think its better that Pakistan makes ICBM with some chinese help instead of purchasing boomers which instead we can purchase more SSK's which we are badly in need of.


Talkin about ICBM,s NK got the one that can reach US, can we get help with that from koreans ?


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## Kaiser

Most probraly but then again I doubt we will incase the sanctions

I would only take alittle chinese help


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## Neo

A.Rahman said:


> Talkin about ICBM,s NK got the one that can reach US, can we get help with that from koreans ?


Im not sure if its a good idea to get involved with the North Koreans at this stage.
We don't want negative attention, NK is still regarded as a rogue regime together with Iran.

Instead we should pomp more funds into development programmes, we're not in a hurry. I'm sure the technology can be developped within 6-8 years withought foreign help.


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## Kaiser

I agree with NEO


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## sigatoka

Neo said:


> Im not sure if its a good idea to get involved with the North Koreans at this stage.
> We don't want negative attention, NK is still regarded as a rogue regime together with Iran.
> 
> Instead we should pomp more funds into development programmes, we're not in a hurry. I'm sure the technology can be developped within 6-8 years withought foreign help.


 
I saw in the news they are going to test a three stage missile capable of reaching West Coast of U.S., is this a haox?


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## Neo

sigatoka said:


> I saw in the news they are going to test a three stage missile capable of reaching West Coast of U.S., is this a haox?


It could be a bluff, NK is known for it.
But its all over the media including Japanese and Korean websites.
NK's missiles are becoming better and more advanced, just two years ago a missile flew over Hokaido undetected and came far beyong Japan. 
A three stage ballistic missile is the next logical step.


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## Kaiser

I dont think its a hoax the North Korean's are smart enough to make a weapon that can reach the US. Its there only possible deterance to stopping a confrotation with the US

I think the world is moving toward a new war let it be Iran or north korea there will be a war in the next 2-3 years


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## Neo

Kaiser said:


> I think the world is moving toward a new war let it be Iran or north korea there will be a war in the next 2-3 years


Do you mean a WW-III?
I don't think so. There are certain area's around the globe wich will see conflicts but we're close to world peace now than ever before during the cold war.
American led war against terrorism will continue till the next government is installed in the USA, meaning that Iran and Syria will pose threat to be targeted next. 
North Korea is a different story. It can harm South Korea and Japan if attacked. US will continue to pressurise NK and try to convince China to do the same but I don't think there will be a war.


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## Kaiser

I dont mean WW3 im talking about the future war the US and its allies will engage in for the so called war on terror meaning the future war against Iran, syria, and maybe north korea


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## Neo

Kaiser said:


> I dont mean WW3 im talking about the future war the US and its allies will engage in for the so called war on terror meaning the future war against Iran, syria, and maybe north korea


Now China has come public with its disaproval of Iranian Nuclear Programme, Iran is more vulnerable than ever. Further sanctions or even military action is likely in the cards.


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## Kaiser

I doubt the iranians will give up there nuclear ambitions, most iranians are ultra nationalist. I havnt met 1 iranian that wasnt a ultra nationalist

The great persian empire and first super power is know bought to its knee's by various nations. What shame


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## melb4aust

Kaiser said:


> I dont mean WW3 im talking about the future war the US and its allies will engage in for the so called war on terror meaning the future war against Iran, syria, and maybe north korea


Why the hell on the earth they call it war on terror, this is total (B.S). They are developing a nuclear weapon or missile, so US will call them terrorist:idiot: . What a crap. 

Japan has already warned N.K if any missile enter or go through its airspace or even through their sea territory, they will call it as a war. South korea and Japan together will attack the N.Koreans, with the help of US. 

Because of retaliation in Iraq, US cant even think about another war, otherwise we might have seen a war, either against Iran or N.K.


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## Kaiser

melb4aust said:


> Why the hell on the earth they call it war on terror, this is total (B.S). They are developing a nuclear weapon or missile, so US will call them terrorist:idiot: . What a crap.
> 
> Japan has already warned N.K if any missile enter or go through its airspace or even through their sea territory, they will call it as a war. South korea and Japan together will attack the N.Koreans, with the help of US.
> 
> Because of retaliation in Iraq, US cant even think about another war, otherwise we might have seen a war, either against Iran or N.K.


 


Japan and South korea have said that if North korea does thest there Ballistic missiles they will take the case directly to the UN. Japan has a self defence force which is only good at defending the japanses mainland not attacking other nations. I doubt Japan will even go to war with North korea in the future

A future korean war will be strickly between South korea and North korea with the USA siding with the south


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## melb4aust

You may be right, but thats what i read in different column in news on the web. How many more sanctions will UN impose on N.K's. It's a shame indeed. 
The government has a full control over the people in N.K. And the sanctions are gonna affect the people not the government itself. Its people who are gonna suffer. But there's no use If UN had some thinking power:idiot: , Kashmir issue would have resolved by now. They are all puppets, "US Puppets" @@@ Kofi Anan


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## Kaiser

The Kashmir hasnt been solved not because of the UN but because of Brahminstan

Kashmir is a whole different issue from the NK SK issue's

The US is really interfering and fueling the fight


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## Lilo

sigatoka said:


> China has only around 20 ICBM's, its very expensive and difficult to build. India is at least five years away from a "true" ICBM and Pakistan at least 8 years.



i would like to correct that



> Rumors persist concerning plans for an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) program, referred to as the Surya. Most components needed for an ICBM are available from India's indigenous space program. The latest model Indian polar space launch vehicle (PSLV), the four-stage PSLV-C6, is capable of launching 1,600-kilogram satellites into a 621 by 632 kilometer-high polar orbit or 3,500-kilogram satellites into a low Earth orbit of 400 kilometers. *The CIA assessed in 2001 that conversion of the PSLV to an ICBM would take a year or two after a decision to do so.*



http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.php?art_ofn=so05norris


----------



## melb4aust

Kaiser said:


> The Kashmir hasnt been solved not because of the UN but because of Brahminstan
> 
> Kashmir is a whole different issue from the NK SK issue's
> 
> The US is really interfering and fueling the fight


 
You can't take out UN from the Kashmir issue its not all india, UN played quite significant role in not solving the issue because US wouldn't like to, so as the politiceans in both the countries.

N.K's are gonnna face and are facing same kind of UN(US) built crisis. Devils:evil: are out there...


----------



## Sid

Let me remind people that this is NOT a North Korean or Kashmir related thread. So lets stick to the topic at hand as further deviations would not be tolerated. Thanks


----------



## ali ahmad

can any one tell about the status of babur-2, shaheen 3 and ghauri 3 missils?


----------



## ali ahmad

Tipu
On 11 May, the daily Frontier Post publication reported that Pakistan was planning to test-fire a new 4000 km range ballistic missile - Tipu [the fighter] on 28 May 1999, the first anniversary of Pakistan's nuclear tests. No other reports assert the fact of the existence of such a missile, and no test has taken place as of the end of 1999. According to report, the new missile was developed by a team of scientists from the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and is capable of carrying either conventional or nuclear payloads. 

The missile was described as being 12 meters long. This reported length is evidently inconsistent with the reported range of the missile, since Chinese [possibly DF-3A or DF-4] and North Korean [TD-2] missile with ranges of several thousand kilometers are several times larger. The utility of a missile in this range class is obscure, since the 1500 km range Ghauri/Hatf-5 ND-1 derivative provides almost complete coverage of India, and politically interesting targets at more than twice this range are rather difficult to identify


----------



## Neo

Ali, this is 6 years old news and there's a complete radio silence about the progress of Tipu ever since.
But its does not mean that its not coming, our country has proven to meet India tit-for-tat in this field but Imho we lack political will to testfire this missile due cuurent situation.
We're reshaping our strategic ties with the US, sale of major defence equippement (MDE) is being discussed with Washington and there's too much controversy about LRBM's due North Korea.
This would not be a good time to testfire the Tipu or the Ghaznavi.


----------



## ali ahmad

neo do u have some new information on tipu etc....
if there is something then there should something out in the news....i think tipu is the upgrade of shaheen probably shaheen 3..


----------



## Neo

ali ahmad said:


> neo do u have some new information on tipu etc....
> if there is something then there should something out in the news....i think tipu is the upgrade of shaheen probably shaheen 3..


 
Pakistani defence projects are kept in full secrecy, including the black projects so I have no info on this.
But I can assure you that when the time is correct, i.e. India testfires 5.000+ missile Tipu will be shown instantly.


----------



## ali ahmad

india have test fired agni 3...no matter its failed...in the past pakistan was going with tit for tat....while this time total silence from pakistani side

i have heard about 1000 km varient for babur....is it comming??


----------



## Neo

ali ahmad said:


> india have test fired agni 3...no matter its failed...in the past pakistan was going with tit for tat....while this time total silence from pakistani side


Again, the $5.1 billion MDE contract is on the table, we don't want to risk anything yet.
Patience is a virtue brother.  



> I have heard about 1000 km varient for babur....is it comming??


Yes, there's news from babur, I'll be posting it as soon as I can.


----------



## Janbaz

Is PAK researching ICBMS.?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Sid

No it isn't. The best known rumour to date is that a 3500Km missile is in the R & D stage. ICBMs are generally missiles with a range of 5000km and above.


----------



## master_fx

Sid said:


> No it isn't. The best known rumour to date is that a 3500Km missile is in the R & D stage. ICBMs are generally missiles with a range of 5000km and above.


i tot is 8000 km above.......


----------



## Thunder

Well the president is talking about going to space, and our launch pad would be compleate by next year or by early 2008. But what this has to do with missiles is that a launch pad uses the same prinicple a ICBM does. So if we have a launch pad then there is a preety high that we have ICBM's.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Thunder said:


> But what this has to do with missiles is that a launch pad uses the same prinicple a ICBM does. So if we have a launch pad then there is a preety high that we have ICBM's.


 
What? Go back to school!

WebMaster edit: I didn't expect this from you Officer. Forum is the place to educate and share ideas with each other. If he doesn't have that much knowledge that doesn't mean that you start the personal attacks against him. I am really disappointed.


----------



## A.Rahman

Officer of Engineers said:


> What? Go back to school!


 
ouch.....you are blunt


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Soldiers talk blunt for a reason. It avoids confusion.


----------



## melb4aust

Well ICBM can have the same sort of system as typical space rocket does have.

Normally and typically ICBM carry multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles (MIRVs) each of which carries a separate nuclear warhead, allowing a single missile to hit multiple targets. I am just talking about land based ICBMs here.

http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/bcmt/images/df_31_01.jpg
A road mobile launcher

But ICBM can launched using the same method as other space rocket do.
Here's an exmple of one these:
US Titan 2 test fired in 1988









The only question with one of these is the mobility.

US has actually scraped and recycle these Titan 2 rockets to boost sattelites in space.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

What has this got to do with rocket pads?


----------



## melb4aust

Officer of Engineers said:


> What has this got to do with rocket pads?


 
If Titan 2 has'nt launched from a rocket or similar launch pad, then whay exactly is it? I think you can clearly see that above.....
They are using the same mechanism. Obviously small rocket pads cant support such missile systems, they have to develope much stronger Launching pads as of MIRVs for a successful launch.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

A Chinese DF-2 IRBM silo is now housing a DF-3 ICBM. Just because you have the launch pad that can support an ICBM does not mean you have one. To suggest so is ludicrous to the extreme.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Officer of Engineers said:


> WebMaster edit: I didn't expect this from you Officer. Forum is the place to educate and share ideas with each other. If he doesn't have that much knowledge that doesn't mean that you start the personal attacks against him. I am really disappointed.



As I stated, we're soldiers. Bluntness is a tool, just like everything else. Command Officers do not only educate but also force people to discover their own mistakes, forces them to think. Telling a person that he's wrong and why he is wrong is going to do alot less than forcing him to figure it out himself why he's wrong.

And if you think that's a personal attack, all I can say is that you have not hang around old war dogs.


----------



## A.Rahman

Officer of Engineers said:


> As I stated, we're soldiers. Bluntness is a tool, just like everything else. Command Officers do not only educate but also force people to discover their own mistakes, forces them to think. Telling a person that he's wrong and why he is wrong is going to do alot less than forcing him to figure it out himself why he's wrong.
> 
> And if you think that's a personal attack, all I can say is that you have not hang around old war dogs.


 
Tell us how they talk on the battle field


----------



## Officer of Engineers

We don't talk. We command. I issue a command, "ie, I need this bridge over here by this time." Either I get a go or no-go. If I get a no-go, I want to know why. If the reason is legitimate, I listen and re-evaluate. If not, I say, make do and if the sqn cmdr still thinks he can't do the job (and that is his job, to make sure a no is understood as a no, even to me), I tell him what to do. If that is still a no-go, I replace him.


----------



## Thunder

Officer of Engineers said:


> As I stated, we're soldiers. Bluntness is a tool, just like everything else. Command Officers do not only educate but also force people to discover their own mistakes, forces them to think. Telling a person that he's wrong and why he is wrong is going to do alot less than forcing him to figure it out himself why he's wrong.
> 
> And if you think that's a personal attack, all I can say is that you have not hang around old war dogs.


 
Bro, i was'nt wrong, read what [COLOR=#0000]melb4aust[/COLOR] has stated above about the ICBM and a rocket having the same sort of systme.


----------



## TexasJohn

Officer of Engineers said:


> We don't talk. We command. I issue a command, "ie, I need this bridge over here by this time." Either I get a go or no-go. If I get a no-go, I want to know why. If the reason is legitimate, I listen and re-evaluate. If not, I say, make do and if the sqn cmdr still thinks he can't do the job (and that is his job, to make sure a no is understood as a no, even to me), I tell him what to do. If that is still a no-go, I replace him.



I do have to agree with OOE. Most combat personnel do end up that way even in their civilian lives. My old dad ( veteran of WW2, China 1962) is that way. His Point of view was clearly presented in one or two sentences. It does help to have clarity on the battlefield. If I ask " is the sky blue?", I don't want to hear, "the grass is green"!

I hope I explained the mind set of military types!


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Thunder said:


> Bro, i was'nt wrong, read what [COLOR=#0000]melb4aust[/COLOR] has stated above about the ICBM and a rocket having the same sort of systme.


No, you're absolutely wrong.

Pakistan doesn't have ICBM. Pakistan ain't developing ICBMs. Pakistan doesn't need ICBMs. And China ain't about to give you ICBMs.

ALL launch pads that can support an IRBM launch WILL support an ICBM launch with slight modifications. It sure the hell does not mean you have an ICBM.


----------



## melb4aust

Officer of Engineers said:


> No, you're absolutely wrong.
> 
> Pakistan doesn't have ICBM. Pakistan ain't developing ICBMs. Pakistan doesn't need ICBMs. And China ain't about to give you ICBMs.
> 
> ALL launch pads that can support an IRBM launch WILL support an ICBM launch with slight modifications. It sure the hell does not mean you have an ICBM.


 
Who the hell is saying we have ICBMs, and what makes you so sure, that we dont have ICBMs and we are not developing one, yeah India do need ICBM on the other hand. Man, sometimes overconfidence can lead a man in either believe anything or nothing, being an army personnel you know much better than anyone.

Any way I was quoting ur answer few posts back, that ICBMs cannot be launched by using launch pads. Yes they can.....
.....over and out


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Damed easy to figure out if you're working on ICBMs or not. We watch your factories. You're talking a rocket tube the size of 5 story buildings and engines the size of buses, ain't exactly easy to hide ... and we have over 60 years of experience looking for these things from the Soviets to the Chinese. You actually think we don't know how to watch a pair of amateurs?

And the point remains just because you have a launch pad that can handle an ICBM does not mean you've got one. You don't. You're not even developing one.


----------



## Thunder

Brother remember tipu?? Also no one said that pakistan has ICBM's. We're just saying that if we can make a launch pad, making a ICBM won't be hard.


----------



## melb4aust

Officer of Engineers said:


> Damed easy to figure out if you're working on ICBMs or not. We watch your factories. You're talking a rocket tube the size of 5 story buildings and engines the size of buses, ain't exactly easy to hide ... and we have over 60 years of experience looking for these things from the Soviets to the Chinese. You actually think we don't know how to watch a pair of amateurs?
> 
> .


 
Yeah you guyz were watching and knew about the launch of babur well. And similarly you guyz also knew where we were going to detonate nuclear weapons well before. Tell me you guyz knew about our development of plutonium at khushab as well. 

OOE again ur too much overconfident, you could be right that we dont have ICBM nor we are developing one, but there could are many things you guyz dont know about. You guyz actually cant figure out. Similarly Pakistan also doesn have the ability to know everything about you guyz.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

melb4aust said:


> Yeah you guyz were watching and knew about the launch of babur well. And similarly you guyz also knew where we were going to detonate nuclear weapons well before. Tell me you guyz knew about our development of plutonium at khushab as well.



What are you talking about? We know all those before hand because the Chinese told us. ALL your missiles are based on Chinese technology and we know they have not shipped you one design for their ICBMs.

And everyone saw the Pak tests coming a long time before hand. It doesn't take a crystal ball to know Islamabad was under so much internal pressure to respond to the Indian tests.

As for the Pu, argue with the eggheads at Los Alamos. They've got the data to back up their claims, including air samples collected over your test sites.


----------



## Officer of Engineers

Thunder said:


> Brother remember tipu?? Also no one said that pakistan has ICBM's. We're just saying that if we can make a launch pad, making a ICBM won't be hard.



*** rolling my eyes *** you go right ahead and believe that.


----------



## melb4aust

Officer of Engineers said:


> What are you talking about? We know all those before hand because the Chinese told us. ALL your missiles are based on Chinese technology and we know they have not shipped you one design for their ICBMs.
> 
> And everyone saw the Pak tests coming a long time before hand. It doesn't take a crystal ball to know Islamabad was under so much internal pressure to respond to the Indian tests.
> 
> As for the Pu, argue with the eggheads at Los Alamos. They've got the data to back up their claims, including air samples collected over your test sites.


 
I dont wanna argue here, because you're gonna stick to ur points and iam with mine. This is going no where mate.


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## Janbaz

Thank You Very Much For Replying Sid.
I Really Appreciate It.


----------



## malik ateeq

thanks for your view,s my friends. I think missile sytem not engough today.coz missile defence system inportant now a days. india develop missile and anti-air craft missile system.india also enjoy his country area depth against pakistan.any one knew about pakistan missile and anti-jet fighter missile ssytem.Also can pakistan develop in country or buy from abord.Plz dear friends tell me. Thanks


----------



## ARSENAL6

***************************************************


----------



## Keysersoze

Pakistan does not need a ICBM

If Pak were to develop one the world would lay heavy sanctions upon it. It should looked upon as pro/con situation 

pro's- PaK can launch nuclear attack upon any country on the planet.

con's- Every country in the world would not be happy about this and would team together with pak's enemies to force Pak to back down. Sanctions would be levied the economy as well as conventional forces damaged.


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## ARSENAL6

******************************


----------



## PakSniper

ARSENAL6 said:


> So that means that Pakistan won't have typical launch Pad to launch Rockets into space and will have to rely n China for Space expitditions ?
> 
> and the Shaheen 3 ?



Having space expedition equipment is different than having an operational ICBM, I understand what key's is saying is true, but say for instance we were threatened like by US again we would need something to retaliate back into their territory.

(Or)

At least have a missile plan that can be made during tough time to send a message, no matter what we make some way or another were going to be sanctioned I rather live under sanction knowing I can strike back at my enemy then them just striking me.


----------



## Interceptor

^^

Your point is so easy to answer, lets look at our ally China from when it was called country of no prospect to a country called a new emerging super power, China developed all the responses required to shut up its enemies. It developed a space/missile, a nuclear program and military program China faced sanctions and later they were lifted, they can target any country in the world and now all its enemies look up to China and think twice if they want to challange China.


----------



## ARSENAL6

************************


----------



## foxhound

I think Pakistan needs to concentrate on the economy as a first priority but as a secondary role should concentrate on developing the means to strike (if necessary) at countries that continually threaten or try to blackmail Pakistan. Such as the threats made by the USA to send Pakistan 'back to the stone age'.

Once Pakistan has the capability to strike longer range targets, then hostile forces would need to behave very cautiously with Pakistan. Pakistan can try to put current longe rage missile technology in it's Naval Fleet (i.e submarines) and get them patrolling close to potential hostile nations...this is after we have become alot more economically stronger.

Pakistan should have the ultimate detterent system...and I think it should be similiar to what the UK's Royal Navy does. They have 4 submarines with enough firepower to make any hostile power cautious/nervous.

It would be wise for Pakistan to expediate it's Space academy, Satelite launch capability and increase the civilian based 'rockets/missiles' range so that a successful space launch programme would give the Pakistan military the technical parameters and experience to build eventual long rage missiles. Our neighbour - India is doing the same with their Civilian Space programme which can be utilised for military ICBM development.


----------



## ARSENAL6

******************


----------



## yousaf butt

I think that Pakistan is gonna be an elite power in the future


----------



## ahussains

yousaf butt said:


> I think that Pakistan is gonna be an elite power in the future



Yup no dought about that we are military power in the region and we have some importance tooo.


----------



## Imran Khan

i think pak cant stop makeing new sestem why we dont make india makes new 4000km balistic missles who force him no one.


----------



## ejaz007

*Pakistan successfully test- fires Ghaznavi Hataf-III *
Updated at: 1035 PST, Wednesday, February 13, 2008 

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan successfully test-fired a medium range Ballistic Missile (BM) Ghaznavi Hataf-III, which was conducted by the Pakistan Army Strategic Force Command. 

Caretaker Prime Minister, Mohammadmian Soomro, Chief of the Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kiyani, senior military officers and scientists were also present on this occasion.
Hataf-III Ghaznavi, a medium range ballistic missile could hit its target at 290-kilometre and it possesses the capacity to carry nuclear weapons and warheads.
President, Prime Minister and Chief of the Army Staff have felicitated the Pak Army for this successful missile test.

Pakistan successfully test- fires Ghaznavi Hataf-III


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

*Nice Going!*


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

didn't they also test the motor for shaheen of ghauri 3? wonder why they didn't test the whole missile, maybe because it has a range of 3500km?


----------



## Joodi

imran khan said:


> i think pak cant stop makeing new sestem why we dont make india makes new 4000km balistic missles who force him no one.




Keeping in view the pakistan&#8217;s defence strategy, which is India centric and concept of &#8220;
minimum credible deterance&#8221; it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will go for an ICBM program in near future, Developing an intercontinental ballistic missile has never been in our military strategy menu, & the reasons are known to every one. 

Pak military establishment regard the ICBM capability as a strategic irrelevance to Pakistan defence strategy (Quite true infact). 
An idea for 5500+ km missile program was once put forwarded in the early yrs of this decade by our defence & research organization but never got support either from the government or from the arm forces.

Instead of an ICBM the mushraf regime have focused in improving the quality & lethalness of the existing ballistic missile inventory. For the last 4 or 5 yrs Nescom and NDC are being assigned to increase the speed, range, payload, accuracy and guidance system of Hatf series missiles (smart decision I must say). Cruise missile is another area of our arm forces interest. 

Unlike Pakistan India has an active ICBM development program, but a tit for tat response by Pakistan in this respect is not necessary
Keeping in view the india&#8217;s missile interceptor program, Instead of ICBM I think we must initiate ballistic Missile interceptor program at the earliest.


----------



## Joodi

Pakistani missile Inventory:

Missile Description

Hatf I discontinued

Hatf II (Abdali) 200 km SRBM (Operational)

Hatf III (Ghaznavi) 290 km SRBM (Operational)

Hatf IV (Shaheen I)	700 km, SRBM (Operational)

Hatf V (Ghauri) 1300 km, MRBM (Operational)

Hatf VI (Shaheen II)	2000 km, MRBM (Operational)

Hatf VII (Babur) 700 km, Surface launched Cruise Missile(operational)

Hatf VIII (Raad) 350 km, Air launched Cruise Missile (Operational)


----------



## Imran Khan

these old news man i want to see test of tipu sultan 5000km


----------



## Joodi

imran khan said:


> these old news man i want to see test of tipu sultan 5000km



No dear tipu is not there in the Nescom menu. dont expect any ICBM testing in near future.


----------



## Imran Khan

but i read that pakistan is make ICBM tippu sultan 5000km.thats in wikipedia info .


----------



## MOSABJA

Yeah we do need an ICBM not a 13000 km but at least a 5000 km or 4000 km bcz the Indian have developed Akash.Which can be effective against the MRBMs but will not be against the ICBM.

besides it we need long range CMs.Super sonic CMs.Sea based and air based CMs.


----------



## mujahideen

MOSABJA said:


> Yeah we do need an ICBM not a 13000 km but at least a 5000 km or 4000 km bcz the Indian have developed Akash.Which can be effective against the MRBMs but will not be against the ICBM.
> besides it we need long range CMs.Super sonic CMs.Sea based and air based CMs.



I dont know man. I think the more the range the better. You never know when you will need it.


----------



## Imran Khan

so you mean we have to wait until 2020 or late then that for pakistan test ICBM .but its too late . may be that time i also late.


----------



## Joodi

imran khan said:


> so you mean we have to wait until 2020 or late then that for pakistan test ICBM .but its too late . may be that time i also late.



hahahah, "mr. late" dont get so depress dear, long live you and long live pakistan. right now pakistan is in no need of testing any ICBM. Our defense needs are very much india specific, and for that any missile with 3000+ range is sufficeint to address our countries defense needs. 

Ok my questions who we are suppose to target with our ICBM in case of any war. Is it america, isreal, russia?


----------



## Imran Khan

Joodi said:


> hahahah, "mr. late" dont get so depress dear, long live you and long live pakistan. right now pakistan is in no need of testing any ICBM. Our defense needs are very much india specific, and for that any missile with 3000+ range is sufficeint to address our countries defense needs.
> 
> Ok my questions who we are suppose to target with our ICBM in case of any war. Is it america, isreal, russia?



its ok man and thanks for new name[mr late] ICBM may give us important place in world more then nuks .but there is no target of ICBM but we can deal with world more power full.


----------



## su-47

mujahideen said:


> I dont know man. I think the more the range the better. You never know when you will need it.



not really. if pak starts developing an ICBM, USA will get very jittery. they dont want another player on the block who can hit USA with nukes, especially a uslim country. they'll probably conduct airstrikes within pakistan.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Depends more on a political scenario at the time of testing such a missile (ICBM)...

But for Pakistan it will be dificult to make the world understand for whom it is meant for and also the obvious point is ..a muslim country with ICBM is a threat at large!


----------



## Joodi

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Depends more on a political scenario at the time of testing such a missile (ICBM)...
> 
> But for Pakistan it will be dificult to make the world understand for whom it is meant for and also the obvious point is ..a muslim country with ICBM is a threat at large!




India's plans for an ICBM doesn't necessarily mean that we should follow the same path. We have our own defense needs and stratgey. A tit for tat response is not necessary in every matter. 
Pakistan has no global military ambitions. Our defense needs are based on the basis of probable threat perceptions to our national security. There is no test any ICBM as a matter of pride only.


----------



## su-47

Joodi said:


> India's plans for an ICBM doesn't necessarily mean that we should follow the same path. We have our own defense needs and stratgey. A tit for tat response is not necessary in every matter.
> Pakistan has no global military ambitions. Our defense needs are based on the basis of probable threat perceptions to our national security. There is no test any ICBM as a matter of pride only.



threats change. dont expect india to be your only threat in the coming years. many pakistanis consider US a threat now. an ICBM is needed if you are to avert US attacks

but the problem is that if Pak starts building ICBM, USA would use that as an excuse to attack pak.


----------



## Titanium

su-47 said:


> not really. if pak starts developing an ICBM, USA will get very jittery. they dont want another player on the block who can hit USA with nukes, *especially a uslim country*. they'll probably conduct airstrikes within pakistan.



Why do you think "Specially Muslim" is concern here???


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Titanium said:


> Why do you think "Specially Muslim" is concern here???



*You are asking this?*


----------



## Joodi

su-47 said:


> threats change. dont expect india to be your only threat in the coming years. many pakistanis consider US a threat now. an ICBM is needed if you are to avert US attacks
> 
> but the problem is that if Pak starts building ICBM, USA would use that as an excuse to attack pak.



Yah that&#8217;s true, threat perceptions changes from time to time. But my question is, will such a change in threat perception to Pakistan&#8217;s security, make it inevitable for Pakistan to attain the ICBM capability. 

Dear Possible surgical air strike missions inside Pakistan is one hell of a scenario. 
lets suppose the worst case scenario that USA decides to Carry out strike missions on Pakistan&#8217;s strategic installations.

Any such air strikes by USA will be conducted from aircraft carriers. So what are our retaliation options, either try to hit US by ICBM or by to launch air strike and missile on USA aircraft carriers.


----------



## JK!

If Pakistan's aim is local defence and deterrance with India then stick to IRBMs. Long range missiles of ICBM class are unecessary.


----------



## IceCold

Joodi said:


> Any such air strikes by USA will be conducted from aircraft carriers. So what are our retaliation options, either try to hit US by ICBM or by to launch air strike and missile on USA aircraft carriers.



What makes you think that our retaliation interms of an airstrike against US aircraft carrier will go fruitfull. What you need to realize is that aircraft carriers are not alone, there's a whole battle group. Even if we launch such a strike, there are sufficient jets on an aircraft carrier ready to defend it against any airborne threat. As for the missles well let me tell you that if US goes for a surgical strike in pakistan, its first priority will be to neturalize pakistan's response strike including missles. 
To always avoid an aggression one has to sometimes go for an aggressive approach. If we have an ICBM and we make it clear just like the chinese did to the US, and in a similar manner we made it clear to india, that any action on pakistan, we will respond with nuclear, will be enough to keep US at home. Rest assured conventionaly noone can challenge the superiority of the US not even china at present.


----------



## IceCold

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> But for Pakistan it will be dificult to make the world understand for whom it is meant for and also the obvious point is ..a muslim country with ICBM is a threat at large!



Why do we need the world to understand at the first place. Every country has its own threat preception and so do we. Isnt it obivious that we being a muslim country will always be in some manner seen as a threat no matter how hard we try to convince otherwise, so why to waiste resources in convincing others, let them believe what they want too. Besides how many times did the rest of the world gave us a clarification about their missile programe or how many times did the US gave us a clarification when they say if pakistanies dont do the job, then we will.
IMO i think we should go for an ICBM rather waiting to get hit.


----------



## Joodi

IceCold said:


> What makes you think that our retaliation interms of an airstrike against US aircraft carrier will go fruitfull.



Possibility of fruitfull retaliation against USA is much lesser with an ICBM. we needs 15000+km ICBM . An ICBM launched to hit US soil will be intercepted easily by US in half way. US missile defense shiled is not just in alaska. Allied nato countries in europe are also coming under US missile defnse shield. 



IceCold said:


> What you need to realize is that aircraft carriers are not alone, there's a whole battle group......




I know aircraft carrier is equiped to handle all types of threat, from sea, submarine, air and land. But every navy persons admits that no ship or aircraft carreir is invincible no matter how advance it is . An aircraft carrier is much easier target to be destroyed as compared to try to directly hitt a supreme power military power country with an ICBM.

Cruise missile, Anti ship missile , submarine launched missiles, aircraft jets there are dozens of different options available to destroy any aircraft carrier. Despite all defense system on an air craft carrier any country with good air, navy and missile capabilities can easily destroy air carft carrier in open sea. Half a dozen cruise missile launched simultaneously along with exocist missiles can do the job. we have best anti ship missiles. 

It is one hell of a task to neutrilize pakistan strike capabilities. We needs more advance missiles systems but, ICBM against USA or allied nato countries will not do the required job.


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## Joodi

By the way, let not discuss such scenerio of US v/s Pakistan conflict. Iraq and afghanistan are sufficient to keep them buzi till qayamat. 
There should be some other reason (except USA and isreal) for ICBM program to be launched. 
Any decision to initiate ICBM program, can not be made only on theories of any possible Pakistan/US military conflict. 
A decision in this respect will be a Hard core military decisions based on comprehensive threat analysis to our national security, keeping in view the regional & international implications


----------



## JK!

Watch a film called "the sum of all fears" starring Ben Affleck.

It features an escaltion of tension between the US and Russia and there is a scene where a US aircraft carrrier is taken out by a squadron of TU22 bombers with Anti ship missiles as well as other tit for tat strikes.


----------



## Joodi

Dear i have seen that movie but better take it as a movie only, where hero always comes out victorious. Last week there was a program discovery channel " future weapons" it was regarding the US aircraft carrier in the gulf region. 
The documentary shows the complete arsenal on the air craft carrier. but the punch line came at the end of program when the commander of the air craft carrier himself said. "No matter what ever equipment we have on carrier, a well planed strike can destroy us surely.


----------



## IceCold

Joodi said:


> Dear i have seen that movie but better take it as a movie only, where hero always comes out victorious. Last week there was a program discovery channel " future weapons" it was regarding the US aircraft carrier in the gulf region.
> The documentary shows the complete arsenal on the air craft carrier. but the punch line came at the end of program when the commander of the air craft carrier himself said. "No matter what ever equipment we have on carrier, a well planed strike can destroy us surely.



Well you do need to take the comments of the commander with a pinch of salt. The reason is that americans are known for their BS in terms of threat assessments. *Remember that US once said that only the F-22 in the US airforce can outperform the chinese J-10* no other jet can whereas J-10 in reality is as capable as a block 40 F-16. They just wana continue their huge military spendings which can only be justified if they keep the american public into constant fear and that is why statements like these are made to initiate fear.


----------



## IceCold

Joodi said:


> Possibility of fruitfull retaliation against USA is much lesser with an ICBM. we needs 15000+km ICBM . An ICBM launched to hit US soil will be intercepted easily by US in half way. US missile defense shiled is not just in alaska. Allied nato countries in europe are also coming under US missile defnse shield.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know aircraft carrier is equiped to handle all types of threat, from sea, submarine, air and land. But every navy persons admits that no ship or aircraft carreir is invincible no matter how advance it is . An aircraft carrier is much easier target to be destroyed as compared to try to directly hitt a supreme power military power country with an ICBM.
> 
> Cruise missile, Anti ship missile , submarine launched missiles, aircraft jets there are dozens of different options available to destroy any aircraft carrier. Despite all defense system on an air craft carrier any country with good air, navy and missile capabilities can easily destroy air carft carrier in open sea. Half a dozen cruise missile launched simultaneously along with exocist missiles can do the job. we have best anti ship missiles.
> 
> It is one hell of a task to neutrilize pakistan strike capabilities. We needs more advance missiles systems but, ICBM against USA or allied nato countries will not do the required job.



Perhaps they can be taken out but like i said we are not talking about firing them, the threat to fire them is sufficent itself to keep US at bay. However once we do get an ICBM another possibility can be that we make an SLBM or for that matter SLCM. There can be number of options but to bring the US main land into the range is a threat in itself big enough to keep US from any misadventure.


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> Possibility of fruitfull retaliation against USA is much lesser with an ICBM. we needs 15000+km ICBM . An ICBM launched to hit US soil will be intercepted easily by US in half way. US missile defense shiled is not just in alaska. Allied nato countries in europe are also coming under US missile defnse shield.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know aircraft carrier is equiped to handle all types of threat, from sea, submarine, air and land. But every navy persons admits that no ship or aircraft carreir is invincible no matter how advance it is . An aircraft carrier is much easier target to be destroyed as compared to try to directly hitt a supreme power military power country with an ICBM.
> 
> Cruise missile, Anti ship missile , submarine launched missiles, aircraft jets there are dozens of different options available to destroy any aircraft carrier. Despite all defense system on an air craft carrier any country with good air, navy and missile capabilities can easily destroy air carft carrier in open sea. Half a dozen cruise missile launched simultaneously along with exocist missiles can do the job. we have best anti ship missiles.
> 
> It is one hell of a task to neutrilize pakistan strike capabilities. We needs more advance missiles systems but, ICBM against USA or allied nato countries will not do the required job.



I think you are a bit naive when stating regarding destroying an aircraft career, do you know what is its operational radius, do you think that they will be in your littoral waters for you to fire missiles at them, what about their rest of the battle group each specialising in attack, air defence and asw roles, what kind of planes do you have that you hope to achieve such range, the russians had a huge naval airwing just dedicated tio cariier strike group, what about the kind of missile interceptiion technology they have mind you each CBG also comes with their submarine escort. If your more interested in this subject i recomment you to read the carrer strike group penetration thread at World affairs board forum's navy section.


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## MOSABJA

First of all even if Pakistan has the capability to hit Israel then the US will not even dare to attack Pakistan.Israel is the heart of US.

Remember that US didnt attack north Korea since it could hit South Korea.


But yes we do need to have ICBMs .Since Indian Akash can intercept the IRBMs and MRBMs .

So we need ICBMs and Long range Cruise missiles and super sonic cruise missiles.


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## asaad-ul-islam

it's highly unlikely we would actually manage to strike the country you just mentioned. with an amount of warheads outnumbering china, uk, and france and with an unmatched BMD, they really don't have anything to worry about except RPG's and suicide bombers.

india's BMD is useless against our MIRV'ed missiles. even if they can shoot our missiles and warheads down, pakistan still has an unknown amount of warheads even the US has trouble figuring out. 

besides that, no one can exactly say whether pakistan is making an icbm or not. my guess is that by 2010, insha'Allah, we will have it. however, i doubt, we would test it, let alone reveal it. unless there's a dire need to test the missile, like the nuclear tests in 98.


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## Keysersoze

Joodi said:


> Dear i have seen that movie but better take it as a movie only, where hero always comes out victorious. Last week there was a program discovery channel " future weapons" it was regarding the US aircraft carrier in the gulf region.
> The documentary shows the complete arsenal on the air craft carrier. but the punch line came at the end of program when the commander of the air craft carrier himself said. "No matter what ever equipment we have on carrier, a well planed strike can destroy us surely.



yes If you have X-wings and tie fighters I am sure it would be possible. But the problem with your whole plan is that it assumes the CBG would not plan counter measure to such plans. In fact the whole nuclear attack on ships thing was thought out back in the 50's. Oh then you have to find the CBG in order to target it. And bear in mind that the CBG would be trying NOT to be found......

Kind of rains on your fantasy....


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## indiapakistanfriendship

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> First of all even if Pakistan has the capability to hit Israel then the US will not even dare to attack Pakistan.Israel is the heart of US.



Believe me in case you threaten Israel of nuking them, when in a scenario where they have not threatened your interests directly, I am sure that israel will go preemptive before you can finish blowing your rhetoric, what stops Americans in launching preemptive attack on you when as you say you have threatened the so called heart and what stops Israel from doing so, beileve me, the moment you are threatening them, you are giving them ample reasons to justify their attack one you.

Cheers


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> yes If you have X-wings and tie fighters I am sure it would be possible. But the problem with your whole plan is that it assumes the CBG would not plan counter measure to such plans. In fact the whole nuclear attack on ships thing was thought out back in the 50's. Oh then you have to find the CBG in order to target it. And bear in mind that the CBG would be trying NOT to be found......
> 
> Kind of rains on your fantasy



Exactly keys, one always assumes based on what Americans say and the fact of the matter is that they always tend to blow out of proportion their threats and scenarios thay face. They plan for worst case scenario and fight rather then waiting for best case scenario. We usually tend to assume that cruise missile can do the trick when the fact of the matter is you need somthing to identify where their carrieer is and then penetrate their battle groups decoys and anti missile systems before effectively eacing one and even if one reaches the carrier, the conventional warhead is simply not enough to sink the entire ship


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## Flintlock

I have read from a variety of sources that the Pakistan missile program is almost entirely imported:

Pakistan's Nuclear Capable Missiles

Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons Program - Present Capabilities

CNS - Chronology of Pakistani Missile Development

Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Stealth:*

Remeber that all those reports are primarily speculative - there is no conclusive evidence of what is claimed.

That said, Pakistan's initial short range missile development could be argued to be derived from Chinese/NK technology. The liquid fueled Ghauri is remarkably similar to the NK Nodong, so lets allow for NK derived tech there as well.

It is with the Shaheen 2 (and solid fueled Ghauri) and the Babur and Raad cruise missiles that the allegations of "imported systems" do not hold much water, and indicate that Pakistan crossed a threshold in indigenous development.

And since Pakistan mastered the longer range missiles, it can be logically argued that the shorter range missiles are now completely indigenous as well.


----------



## ARSENAL6

Keysersoze said:


> yes If you have X-wings and tie fighters I am sure it would be possible. But the problem with your whole plan is that it assumes the CBG would not plan counter measure to such plans. In fact the whole nuclear attack on ships thing was thought out back in the 50's. Oh then you have to find the CBG in order to target it. And bear in mind that the CBG would be trying NOT to be found......
> 
> Kind of rains on your fantasy....



Hey did you play a gamr called X-wing ?

That was cool !


----------



## nitesh

asaad-ul-islam said:


> india's BMD is useless against our MIRV'ed missiles. even if they can shoot our missiles and warheads down, pakistan still has an unknown amount of warheads even the US has trouble figuring out.



Hey asaad, I have never came across any reference that said pakistani missiles have MIRV capability, can you please provide a link which mentions this.

Thanks in Advance.


----------



## araz

nitesh said:


> Hey asaad, I have never came across any reference that said pakistani missiles have MIRV capability, can you please provide a link which mentions this.
> 
> Thanks in Advance.



Asad
I also am not aware of this. would you please provide a link.
Regards
Araz


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## asaad-ul-islam

well it was reported by Jang newspaper in 2002, so don't bother going thru their archives. i did that already, they only have articles for 2008 in their so-called archive. all the other years are gone.

however, it's been confirmed. don't expect any more information, this is Pakistan, no different from China. we are not going to show illustrations on how our MIRV'ed missiles work or in detail coverage.

check this out, it's been on this website for a while. MIRV is also one of the reasons why the range on shaheen II has been reduced to just 2000km.
http://www.defence.pk/pakistan-army.html


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## nitesh

asaad-ul-islam said:


> well it was reported by Jang newspaper in 2002, so don't bother going thru their archives. i did that already, they only have articles for 2008 in their so-called archive. all the other years are gone.
> 
> however, it's been confirmed. don't expect any more information, this is Pakistan, no different from China. we are not going to show illustrations on how our MIRV'ed missiles work or in detail coverage.
> 
> check this out, it's been on this website for a while. MIRV is also one of the reasons why the range on shaheen II has been reduced to just 2000km.
> http://www.defence.pk/pakistan-army.html



This is not the way of saying the things. There is no news but it is confirmed. There is no proof that it exists but confirmed. Please say those things which you can back up with facts, or dont comment.


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> This is not the way of saying the things. There is no news but it is confirmed. There is no proof that it exists but confirmed. Please say those things which you can back up with facts, or dont comment.



Asad is right. I have too read it in Jang. Its an old news and jang does not have reference to its old news so don't expect any links. Rest is up to you, you wanna believe it or reject it.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Asad is right. I have too read it in Jang. Its an old news and jang does not have reference to its old news so don't expect any links. Rest is up to you, you wanna believe it or reject it.



Hadn't you read what I said? I am not being offensive. I just said please say the things that you can backup with facts, or there is no point discussing it. And MIRV is such a good technological breakthrough that I can't digest any country will try to hide this.


----------



## IceCold

nitesh said:


> Hadn't you read what I said? I am not being offensive. I just said please say the things that you can backup with facts, or there is no point discussing it. And MIRV is such a good technological breakthrough that I can't digest any country will try to hide this.



What was there to read about, only you wanted links and i said there ant any. Its an old news. I was just conforming Asad's post because Araz sb was also saying he has not read it. Also if you feel you cant discuss anything without some sort of links, you are free to leave the conversation but don't impose your will on others. On a side note if you happen to read PA page on wikipedia, they too quoted jang news paper saying that pakistan got the capability to MIRV its Shaheen missile. I am not sure as of today because there are too many people to edit it, but it was there few months back.


----------



## nitesh

IceCold said:


> What was there to read about, only you wanted links and i said there ant any. Its an old news. I was just conforming Asad's post because Araz sb was also saying he has not read it. Also if you feel you cant discuss anything without some sort of links, you are free to leave the conversation but don't impose your will on others. On a side note if you happen to read PA page on wikipedia, they too quoted jang news paper saying that pakistan got the capability to MIRV its Shaheen missile. I am not sure as of today because there are too many people to edit it, but it was there few months back.



Again you got to the same point, in fact you are trying to impose your on others. If it is there prove it, or don't brag about it.


----------



## IceCold

nitesh said:


> Again you got to the same point, in fact you are trying to impose your on others. If it is there prove it, or don't brag about it.



Dude i am not showing off. This is the quality only indians possess. I am simply re-stating something that Asad was saying. I said i have read it too. Also Pakistan doesn't brag over its capabilities something which you mentioned back in your post about why would any country hide such an amazing achievement. Point is we are not like other and so we don't brag about what we can or cannot do. Take Babur for example, none of you guys or world knew about it until it was test fired. Your government was even criticize over it for not knowing before hand.


----------



## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Dude i am not showing off. This is the quality only indians possess. I am simply re-stating something that Asad was saying. I said i have read it too. Also Pakistan doesn't brag over its capabilities something which you mentioned back in your post about why would any country hide such an amazing achievement. Point is we are not like other and so we don't brag about what we can or cannot do. Take Babur for example, none of you guys or world knew about it until it was test fired. Your government was even criticize over it for not knowing before hand.



Now where does INDIANNESS comes in to the picture. Why can't you accept that there is no proof that this capability exist. And when you can't provide a proof of whatever you are saying. Don't try to impose over others. Now you mentioned babur, so it is tested and it is known to world that it exists. There are enough references that can be found. I completely agree its quite a good achievement. So if you are not like others could have kept it under wraps for infinity. My point is very simple, if you are saying that some technology capability exists, provide with concrete proof (not necessarily some government website, but at-least any newspaper cutting) or else don't try to impose over others that it is there.


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> Now where does INDIANNESS comes in to the picture. Why can't you accept that there is no proof that this capability exist. And when you can't provide a proof of whatever you are saying. Don't try to impose over others. Now you mentioned babur, so it is tested and it is known to world that it exists. There are enough references that can be found. I completely agree its quite a good achievement. So if you are not like others could have kept it under wraps for infinity. My point is very simple, if you are saying that some technology capability exists, provide with concrete proof (not necessarily some government website, but at-least any newspaper cutting) or else don't try to impose over others that it is there.



Ok lets define proofs. What are they, simply copy pasting materials from what bharat-rakhsak, the hindu. com, daily times, is that proof for you. Grow up. I already stated that its an old news from jang and jang done keep old articles in its archive. What part of this can you not understand. I gave you the example of Babur for a simple fact that no one knew until the day it was fired. No news paper no channel no nothing. Same can be the case with MIRV. You would'nt know unless we declare it and don't expect any articles over it. Reason is Pakistan does not brag over its capabilities unless and until it finds it necessary specially with the media. By the way i am not imposing my will over anything. As i said before don't expect anything in the form of an article, you don't wanna believe it fine with us but those who do wanna, don't tell them not too after all we know our country better and the way it do things.

On a side note thanks for decreasing my reputation.


----------



## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Ok lets define proofs. What are they, simply copy pasting materials from what bharat-rakhsak, the hindu. com, daily times, is that proof for you. Grow up. I already stated that its an old news from jang and jang done keep old articles in its archive. What part of this can you not understand. I gave you the example of Babur for a simple fact that no one knew until the day it was fired. No news paper no channel no nothing. Same can be the case with MIRV. You would'nt know unless we declare it and don't expect any articles over it. Reason is Pakistan does not brag over its capabilities unless and until it finds it necessary specially with the media. By the way i am not imposing my will over anything. As i said before don't expect anything in the form of an article, you don't wanna believe it fine with us but those who do wanna, don't tell them not too after all we know our country better and the way it do things.
> 
> On a side note thanks for decreasing my reputation.



Ok then what is definition of proof for you? keep saying that it exists and saying others just accept it or go to hell. I am not trying to undermine the achievements of pakistani scientists. Whatever they have achieved is fantastic.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gentlemen,

We have nothing but that old News item to indicate anything about MIRV capabilities. 

While I understand that the Pakistani military establishment does not like to publicize any of its programs, I think the objections that there is nothing concrete to base the development of the MIRV capability on is valid.

Lets move on please.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Agnostic, my apologies for dragging this on a bit, but I can't hold back. this is basically picking a bone with me. 

nitesh said, "Why can't you accept that there is no proof that this capability exist." 

woah! wait a minute, hold on? what? 

what do you mean, I can't accept that this doesn't exist? what is the military supposed to do? publish illustrations on bharat rakshak? do you know what the ISPR is? did you know they banned a movie based on cricket and match fixing because it gave a negative view on the ISI?

please go to this webpage, http://www.defence.pk/pakistan-army.html. scroll down to the missile section and please read the bottom lines. if it's good for the knowledgeable mods, it's good for you. trust me, there's no need to debate it further.

pakistan only needs to state once, think of this as a comment to a single reporter, "we have MIRV". pakistan has been working on missile technology for a while now, this is a just one of the results. believe me when I say that we have some young talented people working in NESCOM, thousands of them. learn to accept that pakistan has this capability, it's myopic for people not to.

believe me when I say this, Pakistan will have all the necessary requirements to start projecting itself as a world power very soon. some of which we have already, but we can't reveal that due to the pressures of 9/11. if you do enough searching, pakistani news sources claimed pakistan was going to test a tipu sultan missile with a range of 5000km, and this is before 9/11. what happened post 9/11? tipu sultan didn't even exist anymore, not a trace of it was left except in our memories.

that should be enough, no questions asked. it's up to you whether you want to believe it or not. but if you want to stick your head in the sand, and deny that it's there just like some coconut head was denying pakistan's nuclear capability... be my guest!

proof is reported through the media just like I gave the following source. pakistan does not go into detail on anything like DRDO does. as a matter of fact, go to the NESCOM website... oh wait, there's nothing there!

we won't have vivid and graphic details of our weapons, so forget about it. accept the fact that pakistan has MIRV, it's actually old news. pakistan is well-advanced in missile technology, whether we borrowed or built it ourselves, the end result is the same. we've been accelerating our program for a almost two decades. actually according to some insider sources, our SLV launch is "near the horizon." however, we are facing some "international pressure" coming from you know who to delay our project.

now as for babur, tell since when did pakistan start developing cruise missiles? can you provide me some link to some organization or school where they have courses or training for weaponology in pakistan? good luck on finding anything. the point is, even we, the public through leakages could not find out.

err, anyways, i did some digging for this news report, I found this in someone's post on another defense forum. 


*PAKISTAN REPORTEDLY DEVELOPS CAPABILITY FOR MULTI-WARHEAD MISSILES.*

Text of report by Mohammad Saleh Zaafir entitled: "First test of new Hatf missile series to be conducted this morning", published by Pakistani newspaper Jang on 25 May

Pakistan is going to test the first of the country's new series of short and intermediate-range Hatf missiles this Saturday [25 May] morning. The missile will be fired from the "Tilla Range". This scribe has learned through highly credible sources that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been alerted extraordinarily on the duration of these missile tests, that will last for four days.

The missiles to be test-fired during this period are capable of carrying nuclear warheads to their targets. During the tests, all the missiles will carry a payload equivalent to the weight of nuclear warheads. The United States was informed of these missile tests early this month.

The sources said that the services of telecommunication and space satellites have also been acquired in order to compile the results and technical data obtained from all these tests. For the first time, Pakistan will test-fire missiles on sea targets, aside from land targets.

Pakistani scientists and engineers have already reached the places where the tests will be conducted, and their teams have finalized all the arrangements. Hotlines have also been set up to keep President Gen Pervez Musharraf informed about the tests. It is expected that Gen Musharraf will himself make an announcement regarding the missile tests.

The president's special adviser, Dr Ashfaq Ahmad Khan, told the daily Jang late Friday night that all the tests will be conducted during daytime and that details will be issued upon completion of each test. He expressed confidence that these tests will, by the grace of God the Almighty, be 100 per cent successful.

It was also learned that Pakistan has already started producing these missiles which were developed through indigenous technical capabilities so that they are available in required quantity. Experts say that the missiles that will be test-fired starting on Saturday have already been successfully tested in laboratories.

This scribe also learned that Pakistan has acquired technical capability in producing "Multi Independent Re-entry Vehicle" (MIRV) missile, which is a splendid achievement by Pakistani scientists in this field. 

At present, the United States is the only country in the world that possesses trustworthy MIRV missile system.

The MIRV missile is capable of dropping more than one bomb on its targets. The Pakistani MIRV missile is capable of dropping three to seven bombs in different targets in an area of 80,000 sq. km.

Source: Jang, Rawalpindi, in Urdu 25 May 02 pp 1, 7.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## nitesh

Here you go, you have posted a really long post and come up with copying something without a link. Now the point is again you said wither believe it or go to hell. My point is what AM has said provide a link and close the chapter.
This is what pakistan army link says



> t has been recently reported by the Pakistani Press namely Jang that Pakistan has the ability to MIRV its missiles. This has been seen as possibly the greatest achievement to date. It has also been reported that Pakistan would likely MIRV its Shaheen II missile.



It says that it is "likely to have the capability" so there is my question mark. No offense but till now nothing confirmed.
Cheers


----------



## Neo

Pakistan has a history of displaying her new toys at the right time and right place. 

The world, even RAW or CIA didn't even know about the existence of Babur till it was test fired the day after we struck the missile test treaty with India. Ra'ad came out of nowhere in same fashion and that was only the tip of the iceberg...there's a lot more and only time will tell what we have achieved.

We may have a much smaller GDP hence a smaller industrial base or infrastructure, we still managed to maintain $30+ billion nuclear programme...yes the expenditure for our nuclear programme from 1977-98 is estimated to be between 25-30 billion dollar!!! 
Many small weapons or even the larger UAV's we've developped use ready made spares that come off the shelves from open markets, others are developped locally. 

Pakistan's missile programme is repeatedly described by Pentagon to be very advanced and sometimes ahead of other developping countries, so you may not have seen tested MIRV capability yet but its definitely there. We'll show it when the time is ripe.


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## araz

Nitesh. 
Asad has provided a link form jang a local news paper, dated 25th may 2002. That should satisfy you . It is enough to satisfy me. *Thank you Asad*. Now can we please move on. otherwise things and quality of discussions begin to descend into the belows of Flaming.
waSalam
Araz


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## asaad-ul-islam

nitesh said:


> *Here you go, you have posted a really long post and come up with copying something without a link.* Now the point is again you said wither believe it or go to hell. My point is what AM has said provide a link and close the chapter.
> This is what pakistan army link says



which is why you should have bothered reading the article. I provided a source at the bottom, I even gave the date, author, issue, everything.

Using sources doesn't only mean using links to websites, it also includes books, encyclopedias, periodicals, newspapers, academic journals, and so forth. 

now it's your turn to go call Jang and ask them for this article. everything you need is there, thanks and good luck!


----------



## Neo

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> We have nothing but that old News item to indicate anything about MIRV capabilities.
> 
> While I understand that the Pakistani military establishment does not like to publicize any of its programs, I think the objections that there is nothing concrete to base the development of the MIRV capability on is valid.
> 
> Lets move on please.



*I agree with AM, lets move on please!
Thanks*


----------



## nitesh

araz said:


> Nitesh.
> Asad has provided a link form jang a local news paper, dated 25th may 2002. That should satisfy you . It is enough to satisfy me. *Thank you Asad*. Now can we please move on. otherwise things and quality of discussions begin to descend into the belows of Flaming.
> waSalam
> Araz



Araz,

Even though there is no LINK that he has provided but from whatever he has posted



> This scribe also learned that Pakistan has acquired technical capability in producing "Multi Independent Re-entry Vehicle" (MIRV) missile, which is a splendid achievement by Pakistani scientists in this field.



This is also not a conclusive PROOF that this capability exist, been tested and deployed. So till that point someone posts a conclusive report, nobody can say that it exists.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

How many times do we have to ask you guys to move on and drop the issue?

No more "getting the last word in" - both sides have made their points.

Post deletion will follow.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Samudra said:


> Hi Webby.
> 
> I guess Lodi is still confused about the exact specs of Hatf-V Ghauri.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 700 Kgs or 1000 kgs?
> The RV perhaps...
> 
> 
> 
> It is important to deploy the missiles with the units in the first place.We havent seen much except perhaps for one unit.
> 
> A Question.
> Do we have reports of Pakistani Army personnel carrying out a trial? (User trials)
> 
> 
> 
> Surely, Lodi needs a proof reader.:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> False.
> When some American called up to enquire Gujral he merely said that we had to deploy our missiles somewhere and that Jalandhar was not in that place you call Timbkutu.
> 
> [Ref.Weapons of Peace.Author Raj Chengappa]
> 
> 
> 
> With the way things have gone in the past I can assure you that our 'agenda' does not change according to the pre-poll promises or stated policies of specific parties.
> 
> Narasimha Rao, too, was close to conducting a nuclear test.
> 
> So, now that I've made one post I'll go back to my exams and reappear a few moons later.






I dont know what was the thinking of author Lodhi about the mass of warhead being 700kg or I ton but I shall try to clear the confusion.

In a loose meaning of the word or in layman's language, both the figures of 700 and 1000kg (1 ton) may be correct. This may be a warhead of 1000kg with 700kg explosives or other nuclear material+mechanism.

Lets take a conventional warhead. Lets suppose that Prithvi carries a 500kg warhead. It DOES NOT mean that Prithvi carries 500kg of explosives. The explosive may be just upto 350kg. The rest is casing+other things. The casing of a bomb or warhead is also very heavy. 

But here we should remember that the casing is not something extra. The casing also breaks into fragments and its like hundreds of bullets fired at once.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Do we have reports of Pakistani Army personnel carrying out a trial? (User trials)



The answer to that question would be yes - since one of the last two series of tests of the Shaheen II was conducted by the Army Strategic Force Command (ASFC).

*NOTE:* Regarding the MIRV discussion, if any new information comes out please do continue the discussion.

The discussion the mods asked members to curtail revolved around the sole Jang article, and was going nowhere.

Thanks.


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## xishan786

nitesh said:


> Here you go, you have posted a really long post and come up with copying something without a link. Now the point is again you said wither believe it or go to hell. My point is what AM has said provide a link and close the chapter.
> This is what pakistan army link says
> 
> 
> 
> It says that it is "likely to have the capability" so there is my question mark. No offense but till now nothing confirmed.
> Cheers



On lighter note nitesh what do u want?? U want asad sb to fire it for u ?? or u want that he may fill multiple war head with say garlands, dollers, gullab Jamuns etc etc and then get it deliverd to your home through MIRV??

come on try to learn accepting people .... itnay log keh rahay hain--- khuch tu baat ho gi ....ya apka kawa sufaid hi hai ?


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## nitesh

xishan786 said:


> On lighter note nitesh what do u want?? U want asad sb to fire it for u ?? or u want that he may fill multiple war head with say garlands, dollers, gullab Jamuns etc etc and then get it deliverd to your home through MIRV??
> 
> come on try to learn accepting people .... itnay log keh rahay hain--- khuch tu baat ho gi ....ya apka kawa sufaid hi hai ?



are yaar why start the topic again, leave it where it has stopped na


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## U-571

whts the use of huge military buget if v cant pace up with india, i am sure v lake things which indians have in missile tech!!


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## Neo

U-571 said:


> whts the use of huge military buget if v cant pace up with india, i am sure v lake things which indians have in missile tech!!



You have a lot to learn, start reading!

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## U-571

is tipu going to be developed or its just a paper missile??

why abt shaheen-3, is it formally announced tht it is soon to be completed or its just a false info??

second, how far can v hit with a missile range of 5000-6000, to the west???


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## ARSENAL6

Neo said:


> Do you mean a WW-III?
> I don't think so. There are certain area's around the globe wich will see conflicts but we're close to world peace now than ever before during the cold war.
> American led war against terrorism will continue till the next government is installed in the USA, meaning that Iran and Syria will pose threat to be targeted next.
> North Korea is a different story. It can harm South Korea and Japan if attacked. US will continue to pressurise NK and try to convince China to do the same but I don't think there will be a war.



How time has changed - lol THis post was written back in 2006
which at the time I would have agreed
But now...........
WW3 is becoming more closer because USA wants it with issue of George


THeres another post talks about the isloation of Iran again true at the time but Rassia may back her heavily


It would be nice if PAkistan can use the Shaheen 3 as test bed for lauching into space
We need a space platform now. At least to start it of.


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## IceCold

U-571 said:


> is tipu going to be developed or its just a paper missile??
> 
> why abt shaheen-3, is it formally announced tht it is soon to be completed or its just a false info??
> 
> second, how far can v hit with a missile range of 5000-6000, to the west???



Once tipu is publicly official, it will hear alot of critics from the western world. So even if it gets developed or is under development, no one will ever come to know about it until the day we fire it.


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## Muradk

Ok guys thats enough, Lets get back to the real topic, Hi As long as the Missile works I dont care they name is Micky Mouse

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## hussainfst

thanks for such great works.


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## Top_Jat

does pakistan hav plans 2 build miniturised warheaded missiles and can pakistan increase its capacity to build nuclaer bomb payloads to a 100kio ton or more


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## Super Falcon

Zeeshan S. said:


> Why wouldn't Pakistan purse civilian space technology? The joint programs will be taken place with China as Pakistan doesn't have the proper infrastructure setup, and things required to launch.
> 
> Pakistan might have the capability to launch, but what to send into space is a question which in which Pakistan lacks.




atleast send some sientists.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability*​
By Usman Ansari
Published: 17 November 2008
Print Print | Print Email

ISLAMABAD - *Pakistan is continuing efforts to increase the range, accuracy and lethality of its ballistic missiles while gradually switching from liquid- to solid-fueled propellants.*

According to P.I. Cheema, head of the Islamabad Policy Research Institute think tank, who last year co-edited "Ballistic Missiles and South Asian Security," these efforts are sparked by the Indian threat.

"The driving force behind the program is basically India," he said. "Basically, throughout the Indo-Pak standoff, Pakistan has always been striving for parity or a qualitative edge, given the disparity we have in terms of numbers. Continuous improvisation is required to ensure the system works and remains valid, so you have to continuously update your systems."

A ballistic missile arsenal is necessary to maintain a national deterrent. The close geographical proximity of India and Pakistan would also make surprise attacks with conventionally armed missiles highly effective.

It is widely believed Pakistan obtained at least some missile-related know-how from abroad to initiate its efforts. The solid-fueled Chinese M-11 and liquid-fueled North Korean No Dong, plus associated technologies, are widely regarded to have formed the building blocks of the Pakistan program.

This has resulted in the Ghauri and Shaheen series of medium- to intermediate-range ballistic missiles. The established development/deployment pattern has seen the simpler liquid-fueled Ghauri series initially fielded, followed by the more advanced, solid-fueled Shaheen.

Liquid-fueled missiles require a longer logistics train (due to having to separately transport the fuel) and take hours to fuel, but they have performed a vital stopgap function. In this way, the 1,500-kilometer range Ghauri-I formed a stopgap until supplemented by the 750-kilometer range Shaheen-I, and then replaced by the 2,300 kilometer Ghauri-II.

*With the deployment of the 2,500-kilometer Shaheen-II, development has shifted to the proposed 3,500- to 4,000-kilometer range Ghauri-III, which will be eventually replaced by the envisioned 4,000- to 4,500-kilometer Shaheen-III.*

Strike at a Safe Distance

Pakistan needs such ranges so it can strike any targets within arch-rival India at a safe enough distance from the Indo-Pak border.

*These increases in range have been achieved by using more efficient fuel or rocket motors, reducing the weight of the payload and simply incorporating additional stages. More ambitious advances involve the quest to increase accuracy by moving away from inertial navigation guidance systems to ones like GPS, and possibly developing multiple warhead technology.*

According to defense analyst Usman Shabbir, the main force behind advances in the missile program is the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) defense conglomerate and its subsidiary, the National Defence Complex (NDC).

*"NESCOM has been quietly and steadily refining its missile designs with special emphasis on more precision and greater range and warhead capacity," he said. "Work on MIRV [multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicle] warheads is ongoing and might be fielded in the near future on the Shaheen-II ballistic missile system.
*
"NESCOM is also working on new guided missile projects and in some cases helping other Pakistani research facilities with theirs. One such example was the recently tested air-launched cruise missile RAAD, developed by AWC [Air Weapons Complex] in collaboration with NESCOM," Shabbir said.

Pakistan has also developed a range of solid-fueled battlefield and short-range ballistic missiles to target high-value targets such as airfields, headquarters, troop concentrations, and ammunition and supply depots. The 290-kilometer-range Ghaznavi closely resembles the Chinese M-11 (of which Pakistan is said to have received a number in the early 1990s), and there is a possibility it is a variant of the same missile.

The 180-kilometer-range Abdali, however, is a development of Pakistan's initial indigenous efforts to develop a missile capability, the Hatf-1/1A, dating from the 1980s. These missiles can be armed with a range of conventional or nonconventional warheads.

Though the liquid-fueled missiles will eventually be retired, they may yet form the basis of a satellite-launch capability. They are ideal for such purposes because of the comparatively higher thrust they deliver.

However, Arshad Siraj, the secretary of Pakistan's national space agency, the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission, said, "At this point in time, there is no such program, though it of course would be in the long-term planning of any space agency to have this capability. Perhaps this will happen, but definitely not within the next 10 years."

This is within the timeframe of retiring the Ghauri system and developing it to launch satellites. &#9632;

Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News



This comes from a VERY credible author.

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## Arsalan

what is the news about the MIRV system. do the pakistani missiles carry this technology, if yes which one of the missiles??

sorry i have not been able to read all the previous post at this thread (it may have been answered earlier)but will greatly appreciate if someone can kindly guide me in my question.

thankyou.


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## indiahyper

ICBM and pakistan.. off what a joke.. they dont have a technology which can send sattelites into space unlike india and we are talking about ICBM's. All missiles are all gto from china and north korea and painted. If its not true why pakistan was unable to send \a sattelite on its own ...


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## indiahyper

oh what great work.gettimg all ready made missles got from china and norht korea illegally and painted..wondefrull work.


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## Neo

Save the crap from some third rate Indian forum. 
Bye bye.


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## sergente rehan

my o my....what a top secret news leaked from the Raw wing dedicated to Pakistan, only one question how did you get all this stuff?! ahahahaha
if you don't have any usefull comment then please stop writing your BS! anyway your missile program is all Russian tecnology, you people didn't do any thing...even with the full transfer of tecnology and Russian assistance you repeatedly failed to test fire missile successfully!! 
I don need to explain the history of our missile program bcz it's enough that you read the first post and that will explain you everything.


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## signals3_t4

Once we get and demonstrate the ability that we can target points in Europe or even in the USA


Get More Details


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## Developereo

Anybody know if we are developing ramjet and scramjet technology indigenously?

An MIRV equipped supersonic (or hypersonic) Babur would be awesome!


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## Righteous_Fire

No, I dont think PAF is into those fields yet


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## hazi

what is MIRV??
i would be really glad if you could answer my question??


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## TaimiKhan

hazi said:


> what is MIRV??
> i would be really glad if you could answer my question??



In one ballistic missile there are multiple warheads which eject at different altitudes & distances to target different locations. 

A multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) warhead is a collection of nuclear weapons carried on a single intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) or a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM). Using a MIRV warhead, a single launched missile can strike several targets, or fewer targets redundantly. By contrast a unitary warhead is a single warhead on a single missile.

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## hazi

Thanks i really appreciated that.


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## luoshan

What is the latest status of Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles. There was news of couple of testing of these missiles a few years back. Then there is no news about these missiles in the last year. Have they been inducted yet? Is it possible to put a new missile into operational use with only a couple of tests?
There was rumors of increased range of Babur to Tomahawk level, that is 1,500Kms. Has it been done yet?


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## mughaljee

Our Missile technology, any Urdu version (about first page store ?)


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## SBD-3

luoshan said:


> What is the latest status of Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles. There was news of couple of testing of these missiles a few years back. Then there is no news about these missiles in the last year. Have they been inducted yet? Is it possible to put a new missile into operational use with only a couple of tests?
> There was rumors of increased range of Babur to Tomahawk level, that is 1,500Kms. Has it been done yet?


In Pakistan Things are kept secret until absolutely necessary so it is very possible that development might be underway next level for Babur is 1000 KM and ultimately I think 1500 but you never know

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## ealiza77

Hand soft to you Pakistani Army


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## ealiza77

all over the world pakistan's are best

---------- Post added at 01:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

i love it when any english is talking about pakistan

---------- Post added at 01:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------

i love it when any english is talking about pakistan


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## Tiger Awan

luoshan said:


> What is the latest status of Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles. There was news of couple of testing of these missiles a few years back. Then there is no news about these missiles in the last year. Have they been inducted yet? Is it possible to put a new missile into operational use with only a couple of tests?
> There was rumors of increased range of Babur to Tomahawk level, that is 1,500Kms. Has it been done yet?



At present Pakistan can buy weapons from other countries. I do not think so Pakistan is going to test another long range missile( ballistic or cruise) as many countries raise concern and try to put arms embargo on Pakistan. So just secretly develop your missile and show your power when needed.

Presently Pakistan should be trying to get maximum technology from other countries. Counter terrorism in Pakistan is not now a game of decades but of years. And as soon as Pakistan's role in counter terrorism is reduced I fear another arms embargo and we should be preparing for that.

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## fatman17

_this is an old article but i believe still relevant!_

*Pakistan&#8217;s Long Range Ballistic Missiles: A View From IDEAS*

by Richard Fisher, Jr.

Published on November 1st, 2004

ARMS SHOW REPORTS 


With the October 11 test firing of its Ghauri (Hatf 5), the Pakistan Army Strategic Forces Command within about a year has test-launched all of its major ballistic missiles.[1] Although exact production numbers for its major missiles have not been revealed, the latest launch cycle confirms that Pakistan has in place a two-tiered missile force based on short-range (SRBMs) and medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs). For Islamabad, its nuclear capable missiles are the ultimate deterrent to its larger and long-feared neighbor India. Pakistan has also used the threat of nuclear attack to deter a conventional Indian attack.[2] Pakistan also enjoys status within the Islamic world for being its only nuclear missile-armed member. 

New information on Pakistan&#8217;s missiles came to light recently, during the September 14-17 International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi, the third such arms exhibition. In fact, the Pakistan Army Strategic Forces Command has used the all of the IDEAS shows to display its nuclear capable missiles. This year&#8217;s show, however, was the sole opportunity, given that their appearance had been canceled-on the basis of security concerns-for the usual Republic Day military parade. The solid-fueled Ghaznavi and longer range Shaheen 1 and Shaheen 2 missiles are all widely reported to be based on either Chinese missiles or missile technology. The Ghauri is widely reported to be based on the North Korean liquid-fueled Nodong missile. The Strategic Forces Command did not entertain questions about these missiles, but did offer a video that both summarized previously released missile test footage and provided new information. 

*High Accuracy*

One useful new data point was that the Chinese-source missiles were capable of very high accuracy. Published reports have noted that Pakistan&#8217;s Shaheen 1, Shaheen 2 and Ghaznavi missiles may have a post-separation booster system to provide course corrections to improve accuracy, or maneuver capability for evading missile defenses. The video confirmed that there is such a system. It was at the Zhuhai Airshow in 1996 that a Chinese source inadvertently disclosed that China was developing a terminal and satellite-navigation-assisted guidance system for its short- to medium-range missiles. The PLA also developed a post-separation warhead attitude correction system for its DF-15 short-range missile. This consists of small thrusters that can adjust the warhead trajectory for greater accuracy or for out-foxing early U.S. Patriot PAC-2 interceptors. This system very likely is also on the DF-11 Mod 1 SRBM.

Shaheen 2 Warhead Stage: May use a post-separation course correction system that enables very high accuracy. 


If Pakistan&#8217;s missiles are so equipped, the prospect of their not requiring nuclear warheads to achieve "strategic" results against military targets is more likely. While this might be slightly comforting to some, the capability might also increase the temptation to use such missiles, inasmuch as Pakistani leaders might view their use as carrying a diminished risk of Indian nuclear retaliation. 

Possible antennae on a Shaheen-1 warhead stage: The black patches near the small stabilizing fins may be antennae intended to service very accurate satellite navigation systems.


However, such a terminal guidance capability would also require a sophisticated targeting system capable of providing real-time image or electronic target location data to missile commanders. Pakistan will soon have short-range unmanned reconnaissance aircraft capable of supplying such data. Pakistan can be assumed to be a consumer of commercially available high-resolution satellite imagery. And when China soon launches its constellation of 1-meter or better resolution Russian-influenced electro-optical and radar image satellites, it is a safe assumption that Pakistan will gain useful access to their data. The irony here is that Indian space officials have disclosed that China had offered India the opportunity to invest in this satellite constellation.[3] India wisely refused, because its investment might have amounted to a "subsidy" benefiting China&#8217;s and Pakistan&#8217;s missile targeting capabilities.

China&#8217;s Future HJ-1 and HJ-1C reconnaissance satellites: These Russian influenced satellites are due to be launched soon, and could provide Pakistan with all-weather 1-meter imagery. India wisely chose not to participate in this program.


*Warheads *

All of the SRBMs and MRBMs on display at IDEAS were said to be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear warheads. Pakistan&#8217;s capability to build small plutonium warheads is widely reported to have developed thanks to the assistance of the PRC. China is very likely the source for a range of non-nuclear warheads for the Shaheen 2, Shaheen 1 and Ghaznavi missiles. For its DF-11 Mod 1 SRBM, China is reported to have developed high-explosive cluster warheads, which use a large number of small warheads for attacking soft targets, and thermobaric warheads, which destroy by producing fantastic heat and pressure. And according to a U.S. source, Pakistan is a suspected recipient for new Chinese radio-frequency (RF) missile warheads.[4] These can produce a large electromagnetic pulse via a conventional explosion and are used to attack electronic infrastructure. 

Shaheen 2. Pakistan&#8217;s largest and most capable ballistic missile is the two-stage Shaheen 2, or Hatf 6, reported by the U.S. intelligence community to have been developed with China&#8217;s assistance. To date, this missile has no publicly identified counterpart in the Chinese missile arsenal, but one possibility might be the DF-25, a reported two-stage 1,700-2,500km range solid-fuel missile. Revealed during the 2000 Republic Day parade, it was not launched for the first time until March 9, 2004. Before that it had been displayed with two sets of guidance fins for each stage. But the missile tested in March, and the one displayed at IDEAS, had no fins at the second stage. Pakistani placards stated its range is 2,000km, but other sources note that this might be extended to 2,500km with a lighter warhead.[5] While published sources give this missile an accuracy measured in circular error probability (CEP) of 350m,[6] a Pakistani video claims it is capable of "surgical precision." This may indicate that it incorporates a warhead post-separation correction system and/or a satellite navigation update system, which may indicate a CEP of much less than 300m. Reports also indicate there may be a 4,000km range Shaheen 3 in development that would also serve as a space launch vehicle.[7] 


*Shaheen 2* 

Range: 2000km 
Weight: 15,000kg 
Re-entry vehicle Weight: 1,000kg 
Warheads: Nuclear, HE 
Tech Source: China 

Shaheen 1. First revealed in 1999, the Shaheen 1, or Hatf 4, also has no known Chinese equivalent, but its Chinese origins are more apparent than the Shaheen 2. The nose section is very clearly a copy of that seen on the Chinese DF-11 Mod 1 missile first revealed in their October 1999 military parade. But the Shaheen 1 is longer and, at 750km, has a longer range than the 300-500km of the Chinese missile. The warhead stage has what a Pakistani video calls a "post-separation attitude correction system," meaning that the Shaheen-1 is capable of high accuracy and some degree of maneuvering to evade missile defenses. In addition, both the Shaheen I and its relation, the Ghaznavi, employ stealthy warhead shaping to delay detection and complicate targeting. 


*Shaheen 1* 

Range: 750km 
Weight: 9,500kg 
Warhead Weight: 850kg 
Warheads: Nuclear, HE 
Tech Source: China 

Ghaznavi. The latest Pakistani missile is the Ghaznavi, or Hatf 3, which was formally adopted by the Strategic Forces Command on February 22, 2004. This appears to be an exact copy of the latest version of the DF-11 Mod 1. Like more recent versions of the Chinese missile, the Ghaznavi employs an "aerospike" on the tip of the nose cone. This serves to push away air, creating less aerodynamic drag for the remainder of the missile, and is useful for extending the range of the missile if it employed a "depressed trajectory" or low altitude flight profile, where denser air would create more drag. It is also suspected of using a "depressed trajectory" to evade missile defenses. A Pakistani video also notes that this missile uses a "post-separation attitude correction system" to ensure accuracy. It also features flat antenna arrays near the warhead stage, all indications that it uses highly accurate satellite navigation assisted guidance systems. And, like the DF-11 Mod 1, the Ghaznavi very likely uses a range of warheads, including nuclear, high explosives, cluster munitions, thermobaric and RF.


*Ghaznavi* 

Range: 290km 
Weight: 5,256kg 
Warheads: Nuclear, HE, Cluster, Thermobaric, Radio Frequency 
Tech Source: China 

Ghauri 2. Also on display was the Ghauri, or Hatf 5, widely reported to be based on North Korea&#8217;s Nodong liquid fueled missile. It has a range of 1,500km that it can cover in about 10 minutes. It is said to be armed with nuclear and high explosive warheads. But, being liquid fueled, it does not have the rapid response capability of solid-fueled missiles. The need to spend considerable time fueling Ghauri makes it vulnerable. There are reports of a Ghauri 3 in development, a two-stage liquid fuel missile with a range of 3,500km.[8] This program may benefit from North Korea&#8217;s Russian technology derived Makeyev R-27-based MRBMs.

*Ghauri* 

Range: 1,500km 
Weight: 15,852kg 
Warhead Weight: 900kg 
Warheads: Nuclear, HE 
Tech Source: North Korea 

*Possible Missile Defenses*

Pakistani sources interviewed before the IDEAS show, as well as some recently published information, indicates that Pakistan&#8217;s leadership is very interested in a limited missile defense capability. This appears to be inspired mainly by the desire to match any prospective Indian missile defenses that might be obtained from Israel or the United States. This impression was confirmed by sources interviewed at the IDEAS show, though there was general reluctance to discuss the details of any future missile defense system. Published sources indicate that Pakistan is considering buying or co-producing the FT-2000A surface-to-air missile (SAM).[9] In 1998 Chinese sources disclosed that this SAM, originally designed with a passive seeker intended to attack electronic warfare aircraft, would eventually feature an active-guidance system with antitactical ballistic missile (ATBM) capability.[10] In 2003 a Malaysian defense journal revealed that the FT-2000A did have a new active phased-array radar for long-range missile guidance.[11] 

FT-2000A SAM: Pakistan is showing great interest in its own ATBM capability, and a future missile-intercept capable version of the Chinese FT-2000A appears to be the most likely choice.

The FT-2000 program is believed to stem from the HQ-9 program, which in turn has been described by U.S. and Russian sources as having benefited from Russian S-300 and U.S. Patriot PAC-2 SAM technology. In its active guided configuration, the HQ-9/FT-2000A might be as capable as early 1980s versions of the S-300 or early versions of the Patriot PAC-2. It will definitely feature the very difficult to jam "Track Via Missile" system pioneered by the Patriot, and then reportedly stolen by the Russians. This uses a missile seeker to home in on reflected energy from a narrow-beam ground-based phased array radar signal. Such radar and missile seekers are very difficult to jam.

H-200 Phased Array Radar: This phased array radar is associated with the KS-1A SAM. The sets of secondary radar phase shifters on the top and bottom are strong indications this radar also has a missile guidance function, leading to the possibility that both the KS-1A and the active guided FT-2000A use a &#8220;track-via-missile&#8221; technology.


*Impact on India* 

For Delhi, Pakistan&#8217;s missile force sustains a strategic preoccupation with its larger political-military challenge. Pakistan&#8217;s emphasis on increased accuracy, maneuverability and the apparent range of non-nuclear warheads, at least for the Ghaznavi, point to an edge over India, especially concerning SRBMs. While the Indian Prithvi SRBM is reported to have high accuracy and some maneuver capability, its use of liquid fuels might also limit its flexibility. This has led India to develop may push greater Indian interest in the Russian Iskander-E solid-fueled SRBM, which is capable of low, maneuvering trajectories, and has an optical seeker for attacking moving targets. Meanwhile, India has a clear superiority in the development of indigenous electro-optical and future radar satellites that can aid missile targeting. But Pakistan could quickly catch up if given access to information from imminent Russian-influenced Chinese electro-optical and radar satellites. 

If acquired by Pakistan, the HQ-9/FT-2000A ATBM might be useful only against short-range Indian missiles like the Prithvi or Dhanush, not against the faster and longer-range Agni missiles. This points to a possible emerging Pakistani advantage: it may be in the process of developing a better defense against Indian SRBMs, and challenging possible future Indian ATBMs to take down a maneuvering and low-altitude Ghaznavi/DF-11 Mod 1. However, possible future Indian high-altitude ATBMs like the Israeli Arrow 2 might pose a credible defense against the lower-tech Ghauri or the Shaheen 2-if attacked early enough in the flight cycle. 

One hope in the India-Pakistan missile competition is that the interest in missile defense systems might prompt bilateral interest in a stable balance of offensive and defensive systems. At this point it is too early to determine if this will prove the case. Nevertheless, during the Summer of 2004 Pakistan and India took clear and welcome steps to put in place new "confidence building measures" essential to build toward further dialogue. 

*Dangers of Proliferation*

For Delhi, Washington and others, Islamabad&#8217;s missiles highlight the dangers of Beijing&#8217;s and Pyongyang&#8217;s continued proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and possible new dangers of secondary Pakistani proliferation. Washington has repeatedly sanctioned Chinese and Pakistani missile concerns on the basis of their continued cooperation. The ongoing development and deployment of successive Chinese and North Korean-based missiles in Pakistan is a sure indication that all three countries are choosing to ignore Washington&#8217;s concerns.

The last decade has also seen the dangers of Pakistan&#8217;s participation in nuclear weapons technology trafficking, especially by the "father" of Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear weapons, Abdul Quadeer Khan. Khan&#8217;s network was exposed to the world by Libya, when in 2003 it chose to begin dismantling its nuclear and missile systems in return for Western recognition. And while Pakistan may have curtailed Khan&#8217;s personal involvement in WMD proliferation, there is the continued danger that Khan&#8217;s associates or other high-level Pakistani nuclear and missile experts may be inspired to follow his example. In the meantime, Pakistan&#8217;s solid and liquid fuel missile development and production infrastructure point to another potential area of proliferation that.

Patriot PAC-3: China&#8217;s building and proliferation of ballistic missile technology has generated programs to purchase the Lockheed-Martin Patriot PAC-3 ATBM in Japan and Taiwan, and has led to Indian interest in this missile.

While India and Pakistan may continue to strive for missile advantages to serve perceived deterrent objectives, outside actors have some tools for influencing this competition. Encouraging the positive dialogue between Delhi and Islamabad started in mid-2004 is an obvious one. But it is also useful to shift this competition into defensive systems, to help reduce the desirability of ever greater numbers offensive systems. To this end it serves the interests of South Asian stability for the U.S. to continue to engage India in missile defense cooperation. Such cooperation also serves to place positive pressure on China to reconsider its rapid build-up of offensive missiles and its unwillingness to halt its dangerous missile proliferation. While they are not all linked, missile defense cooperation with India can compliment U.S. missile defense cooperation with Australia, Japan and Taiwan. This effort affirms American strategic leadership in this region while demonstrating that Asian democracies will defend themselves against Beijing&#8217;s growing direct and indirect missile threats.

annex:
[1] October 11, 2004: Ghauri/Hatf 5; March 6, 2004: Shaheen 2/Hatf 6; October 11, 2003: Shaheen 1/Hatf 4: October 3, 2003: Ghaznavi/ Hatf 3 

[2] On April 6, 2002 Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf stated his readiness to use nuclear weapons against India in the context of the build-up of Indian military forces in Kashmir, in turn a reaction to December 13, 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament by Pakistani-supported terrorists. 

[3] Interview, Bangalore, India, June 21, 2004.

[4] Interview, October 4, 2004.

[5] Babar Ahmad, "Pakistan: Tests May Not Include Cruise Missile Tests," ***********, September 8, 2004, http://www.****************/news/publish/article_001868.shtml

[6] Duncan Lennox, "Hatf 6 (Shaheen 2), Jane&#8217;s Strategic Weapon Systems, June 15, 2004.

[7] Ibid.

[8] Duncan Lennox, "Hatf 5 (Ghauri)," Jane&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Systems, June 15, 2004.

[9] Prasun K Sengupta, "Flying High; China's New Air Defense Systems Unveiled," September 8, 2004, http://www.forceindia.net; Ahmad, op-cit.

[10] Interview, Zhuhai Airshow, November 1998.

[11] Prasun K. Sengupta, "China's KS-1A and FT-2000A air defence systems unveiled," Tempur, January 1, 2003, in FBIS SEP20030123000046.


Related Links 
Report On the International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)

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## mughaljee

Since a bit long time, Pakistan is quite in sense of Missile Test.
And please share information, Is Iran ahead from Pakistan in Missile technology? Neighbors are doing many things and we are quite.
Geo Television Network


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## Dazzler

Things are at a pace in NESCOM according to Janes....

New BVR missile (Pakistan) (Pakistan), Air-to-air missiles - Beyond visual range

Type
Active radar-guided air-to-air missile.

Development
During November 2001 officials from the Aerospace Division of Pakistan's National Development Complex (NDC) revealed that the agency was working on what was described as 'preliminary studies' for a new medium-range air-to-air missile. While no full-scale hardware had then been built, it was stated that NDC engineers were investigating several different approaches to the future missile's design. The NDC, based in Islamabad, is Pakistan's main military research and development centre, and is responsible for Pakistan's 'strategic products' - the Shaheen ballistic missile family. The NDC is also heavily involved in the design and production of UAV systems, air-launched weapons development, and missile maintenance and sustainment.

New BVR missile (Pakistan) (Pakistan) - Jane's Air-Launched Weapons

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## monitor

both china and pakistan took help from ukrain in getting air launch cruse missile of ussr the famous kh-55 and also suspition of copying tomahak from which landed in pakistan .whether its true or propaganda we dont know . but after seeing babur we are not hearing any development of any long range cruse missile by pakistan or even ship/submarin launch version of babur.


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## asad ikram

Patron Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR FS LODI 
goes over the whole gamut of the advent of missile technology in Pakistan



On April 6, 1998 Pakistan carried out a successful flight-test of a medium range surface ballistic missile. It is the fifth in the current Hatf series and has been named Ghauri. It has an optimum range of 1500 kilometers and can carry a payload of about 700 kg. The missile is in the research and development phase and is part of the Integrated Missile Research and Development Programme. The test confers on Pakistan a credible indigenous missile capability.
Hatf V (Ghauri) was fired from Malute, near the city of Jhelum, about 76 miles south of the Capital Islamabad at 7.25 a.m. It climbed to a height of 350 kilometers before taking the direction to its planned impact area in the desert of Balochistan where it hit the designated target at 7.33 a.m. after a flight of eight minutes. Hatf V (Ghauri) missile weight 16 tons and consists of 13 tons of fuel, a one ton warhead and the remaining weight is of the casing and equipment.

Pakistan started planning its missile programme in early 1987, on the explicit information gained that India was on the road to pursue its missile programmes, writes General Mirza Aslam Beg, a former chief of the Army Staff in his article Ghauri won't rock the region' (DAWN April 27, 1998) General Beg continues Its authenticity was checked and rechecked. General Zia ul Haq , who was the then president, in consultation with the concerned departments, took two crucial decisions. The first one was based on moral principles that Pakistan would not develop chemical weapons. The second one was to build missiles of short and medium range capabilities, to be equipped with proper guidance systems.

General Beg says that the name Hatf for the surface-to-surface missile was selected by the Research and Development (R & D) Committee of the General Headquarters (GHQ) of the Pakistan Army, as it was the name of the lance of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) which was used in many ghazva , and had the unique distinction of never missing its target. Similarly the name Anza, a lance of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was selected for a similar consideration, for the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile, which was also developed during the same period. later the anti-tank Baktarshikan missile was also produced.

The testing of Hatf V (Ghauri) missile is the result of the dedication, hard work and single minded devotion to a cause displayed by our scientists and engineers working on the research and development of missile technology. Initially Hatf I was developed with a range of 80 kilometers and a payload of 500 kgs. Efforts continued to improve its performance, resulting in Hatf II with an enhanced range of 250 kms and the same payload of 500 kgs. Both were free flight missiles with inertial guidance systems following a ballistic trajectory. Hatf II was produced in 1989 and displayed at the Pakistan Day parade of March 23, 1990 and 1991.

The testing of Hatf III in July last year was a major break-through in missile development in Pakistan. It has a range of 600 kms with a payload of 500 kgs and a proper terminal guidance system giving it an accuracy of 0.1 per cent, as the circular error probability ( CEP) at 600 kms, similar to the Indian Prithvi surface to surface ballistic missile at 250 kms. This meant that Hatf III was to be controlled by an on-board computer for accuracy and was not to follow a purely ballistic trajectory. The main features of Hatf III missile are its two-stage rocket ability for war-head separation, a terminal guidance system and five different types of warheads. The most difficult part of the missile was the its guidance system which was developed entirely by Pakistani engineers and scientists.

By successfully test-firing Hatf V (Ghauri) missile overland within Pakistan territory our engineers and scientists have amply demonstrated their own technical skills and accuracy of the missile. India on the other hand tests her missiles from the missile range at Chandipur-on-Sea on the Orissa coast, and these are fired into the Bay of Bengal. India successfully tested its intermediate range ballistic missile Agni' on May 22, 1989, after two failed attempts to test the system earlier in the year.

In a successful first launch of Hatf V (Ghauri) missile, which is capable of reaching targets 1500 kms away, Pakistani scientists and engineers have demonstrated their skill and mastery of the modern and up to date missile technology. It means our scientists and engineers have been able to overcome the problems presented by the first four major sub-systems of a medium-range ballistic missile. These are the rocket boosters, navigation and guidance system, missile flight control system and the re-entry vehicle. The fifth is of course the warhead. These sub-systems can be tested separately but it is important for success to integrate them and to flight-test the complete missile system as was done in the case of Hatf V (Ghauri) using a dummy warhead.

Gregory Koblentz, a junior fellow with the Nuclear Non-proliferation project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, D.C. in his article Theater Missile Defence and South Asia', A Volatile Mix', published in the Non-Proliferation Review, vol 4, No. 3 of 1997 writes According to the Pentagon, Pakistan's missile programmes are driven by a desire to augment limited offensive air capabilities against India, which holds a nearly 3.1 advantage in combat aircraft, and to field a more effective delivery system. Therefore, without a credible aerial delivery capability, Pakistan will have to rely mainly on ballistic missiles to overwhelm India's defences.

Foreign experts believe that India and Pakistan are fast developing ballistic missiles. As with other weapons programmes, Pakistani and Indian pursuit of ballistic missiles is largely driven by the perception that these missiles are necessary to counter their rival's capabilities. India's development of Medium Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBMs) is also motivated by its desire to be recognized as a great power and strategic competitor with China, they feel.

India started its missile programme in 1983. The Pakistan-specific' short range surface-to-surface ballistic missile Prithvi' was first tested in 1988 and after conducting about 15 tests to perfect it, the production of the missile was started in 1994. The most advanced long range Prithvi missile was test-fired by India in January 1996. With its longer range of about 150 miles the missile can strike most major cities of Pakistan five minutes after launch. A shorter range version of the missile, which can carry a 1000 kms warhead approximately 90 miles, was already in limited production. Both versions are highly mobile, and although India insists that all Prithvis will be tipped by conventional explosives, both are capable of carrying nuclear warheads. Washington was so concerned that the Prithvi missile launch would provoke a strong Pakistani response that Deputy U.S. National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger was dispatched to Islamabad in February 1996 to counsel restraint.

The arrival of the new Prithvi, said the U.S. News & World Report of February 12, 1996, will qualitatively change the nature of the strategic balance ( between India and Pakistan), because ballistic missiles reach targets faster than other weapons and are difficult to defend against. The report goes on to say, Indian Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao (at the time) has been careful not to openly acknowledge Prithvi production or deployment. But sources in the Indian Defence Ministry say the first short-range missiles already have been handed over to the Army, which has set up a special unit called the 33rd Missile Group in the southern city of Secunderabad. The report concludes by saying Pakistan, a narrow country that is vulnerable even to short-range missiles, has struggled to keep pace.

On May 27, 1997, without any provocation India sent a Russian made MIG-25R military reconnaissance aircraft deep into Pakistan airspace. This was followed a week later by the move forward to the Pakistan border of India's ground-to-ground ballistic missile Prithvi', as reported by U.S. officials in Washington on June 4, 1997, who disclosed that India's military forces recently moved a handful of medium-range ballistic to a prospective launch site near the Pakistani border. U.S. intelligence have concluded that fewer than a dozen of them are now located near the city of Jullundur in the state of East Punjab in north west India.

We know that the missiles have been moved, and in the wrong direction said one US official who is familiar with intelligence reports on the matter. This is going to prompt a bad reaction-even an overreaction in Pakistan, said another official. The US officials expressed uncertainty why the missiles were moved to that site at a time when senior Indian and Pakistani political officials have been moving toward an improved dialogue and a possible reduction of political tension. The Washington Post also reported in its issue of June 3, 1997, deployment of the Indian Ballistic Missiles at a prospective launch site near Pakistan's border.

As a consequence the Pakistan Foreign Office on June 3, 1997 expressed serious concern at the deployment of medium-range ballistic missile, Prithvi, by India near Pakistan's borders and said it reserved the right to take measures for its security. The statement said The deployment of Prithvi missiles entails a qualitative change in the security environment in South Asia and could trigger a dangerous ballistic arms race in the region.

The Pakistan Foreign Minister Mr. Gohar Ayub Khan in a letter to the US Secretary of State Ms. Madeline Albright said that the deployment of Prithvi missiles by India near Pakistan border has created a dangerous security environment combined with a potential of unleashing a missile race in South Asia. He said India appears to have been encouraged by the discriminatory American Legislation against Pakistan that has resulted in a serious military imbalance in the region. The letter continued by saying that the Indian missile threat leaves us no choice but to take appropriate measures.

India denied that any missiles had been deployed near the Pakistan border. The Indian Prime Minister at the time Mr. I.K. Gujral while talking to the representative of the weekly India Abroad' in Washington on July 14, 1997 said that India had undertaken missile manufacturing for a long time and had not made a secret of it. India's present storage capacities have been filled. Since it could not spend money building more storage capacities, the Jullundur capacity was used for Prithvi. This statement is in complete variance with the US disclosure based on the intelligence estimates that a handful of medium-range ballistic missiles had been moved to their prospective launch sites near the Pakistani border. They have in fact been issued to the No. 60 Artillery Regiment located in the area for some time.

Violation of Pakistan's air space and the deployment of medium-range ballistic missiles by India near the Pakistan border created some misgivings in the official and political circles in the country and some alarm in the public's mind. The test-firing of Haft III rocket by Pakistan in July 1997 seems to have been a natural consequence for a small country safeguarding its security interests in the absence of any outside support.

In the meantime India had decided to acquire the Russian made S-300V air defence and anti-ballistic missile system. This is similar to the US patriot missile and is capable of targeting incoming enemy aircraft and ballistic missiles. The agreement was signed by India's former Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav during his visit to Russia on July 14, 1997, heading a high-powered defence delegation consisting of the Secretary of Defence and the Vice-Chiefs of the three defence services.

The daily Telegraph of London had reported that the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) had been instructed by the government of India to carry out detailed evaluation of the advanced technologies of the Russian S 300V anti-ballistic missile in consultation with the Army and Air Force for possible incorporation in the later version of the Indian Akash' surface-to-surface missile to provide it anti-ballistic missile capability.

India started her ambitious Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) in July 1983 with an original cost of production at Rs. 3,380 million which has since been revised to Rs. 7840 million. The original plan was to design and develop Prithvi (Earth) Medium range surface-to-surface ballistic missile; Trishul (Trident) anti-ship missile; Akash (Sky) surface-to-surface air missile; Nag (Cobra) anti-tank missile and Agni ( Fire) an Intermediate-range Ballistic Missile (IRBM). However later Surya and Sagarika have been added to the IGMPD. The Surya is an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a range of 12,000 to 20,000 km, while Sagarika has range of 300 km and is a submarine launched ballistic missile. The Navy also wants a redesigned Prithvi ballistic missile for its use.

The hectic missile activity going on in India is a cause of great concern for her small neighbours. It is therefore the duty of every government to protect the country from foreign aggression and internal subversion. It was therefore appropriate and timely for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to declare, while addressing the National Defence College in Islamabad on April 6, 1998, his resolve to make Pakistan a strong, stable, prosperous and democratic country. Defence of Pakistan was being given priority as he considered a strong defence essential for economic development of the country.

The new BJP-led government in India has aggravated to a large extent Pakistan's defence problems owing to additional provocation and threats emanating from India. This is evident from its election promises and the action taken and contemplated on assuming power. Mr. Savita Pande, a research fellow at India's Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis writing in The Pioneer' of New Delhi in its issue of February 17, 1998 says that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), in its 31- page manifesto has promised to re-evaluate the country's nuclear policy and exercise the option to induct nuclear weapons. It has also declared its intent to expedite the development of the Agni series of ballistic missiles (India's intermediate range missile with a range of 2,500 kms). The author goes on to say that the party's (BJP) nuclear agenda can no longer be dismissed as mere pre-poll propaganda. As BJP's attaining power in India will place it in a position to call the shots in nuclear and strategic issues. The author concludes with the following words. By mentioning the completion of the Agni programme in the same breath as the induction of nuclear weapons, the BJP has made its posture more credible both inside and globally. How soon will the BJP government carry out its election promises is the deadly question which is receiving the urgent attention of India's small neighbours. The situation is also being watched by the Western government who have interest in South Asia and the region around it.

Russia is helping India to build a Sea-launched ballistic missile system that can carry a nuclear warhead and strike deep into Pakistan, the New York Times' (NYT) reported on April 27, 1998. In an exclusive report the Times' said India was getting Russian assistance since last three years. The newspaper quoting an official of the US administration said, despite assurances from Russia that its scientists were not contributing restricted technology to India's missile programme, the assistance had continued. US Vice President Al Gore and other senior administration officials had appealed to Russia to halt the support, but Russia paid little attention to it. India, the NYT noted, has long had military ties to Russia, it has been trying for years to develop a series of more powerful missiles. Although not tested , the sea-launched missile, the Sagarika, whose name means Oceanic in Hindi, is said to have a range of nearly 200 miles and is meant to be launched from submerged submarines.

The NYT said this would be a technological breakthrough for India in its arms race with Pakistan. American intelligence officials regard the simmering rivalry one of the most dangerous flash points for conventional or even nuclear war. Clearly this (Russian) cooperation with India raises questions said a senior US administration official, who, as with others, insisted on anonymity, because of political sensitivities and to protect American intelligence sources. Another officials who tracked the reports said the Russian help to India had included significant engineering services as well as parts and equipment necessary to build and launch the missile, said the Times.

It should be appreciated that India is making an all out effort to develop a large-scale missile industry capable of browbeating and dominating South Asia and the region around it. Missile technology was freely transferred from Western sources and is now being done by the Russian. India's acquisition of missiles and other high-profile defence equipment is well beyond her legitimate defence requirements. It poses a valid and active threat to the independence of her small neighbours. It is with this background that the successful test-firing of Pakistan's Hatf V (Ghauri) missile had been welcomed with some enthusiasm by the entire nation. The development of missile technology will give strength to the Prime Minister's resolve to make Pakistan militarily strong and giving priority to defence, as it contributes enormously to the well being of the country and its economic development. It must be remembered that weakness has over the ages invited aggression whereas adequate strength has deterred it.

The significance of Pakistan's missile technology resulting in the test-firing of Hatf V (Ghauri) and the impact it is likely to have on regional, particularly South Asian defence capabilities and the balance it will create has been discussed in great details in official circles and the press of both India and Pakistan. The upshot is, that at present India's Pakistan-specific Prithvi missile deployed on our borders covers most of the important towns, airfields and communication centres in Pakistan.

When Hatf V (Ghauri) missile is deployed in Pakistan it will cover most of India except its eastern and southern portion and the coast, along the Bay of Bengal. It will deprive India of the advantage of strategic depth that it enjoys at present in relation to Pakistan. It will therefore give Pakistan a degree of defence parity that has been reducing in the last few years. Pakistan will now be in a position to hit back effectively if subjected to aggression by India and inflict unacceptable damage to India's important and vulnerable areas and particularly those areas which were hitherto considered safe, owing to the distance from the Pakistan border.

This should give any potential aggressor cause for genuine concern and caution its military planners.

In the modern defence concept, the missile system is the most essential element. In fact it is now the core of any viable defence structure and the cutting edge of an adequate defence capability of any nation. It cannot therefore be ignored by the defence planners. In Pakistan's security environment an adequate missile defence will prove an effective and reliable deterrent. The essence of deterrence worldwide, is a country's power to retaliate in kind. It was after all, the power of deterrence that prevented a third World War between the Western allies and the Soviet empire for over 50 years. In case of South Asia deterrence should provide the foundation for lasting peace and security on the basis of sovereign equality of nations and in accordance with the charter of the United Nations.


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## Abi

Lilo said:


> I have a question...
> 
> Why is pakistan not pursuing civilian space tech as aggressively as it is developing its missile tech...??
> 
> It could have build atleast a PSLV type vehicle if it had developed its civilian tech concurrently with the missile tech.
> 
> Doesnt it realise the huge market potential of the civilian space industry? . If it could capture even a small % of the market share it could be a huge foreign exchange earner in the long term..









Buying missiles is not the same as developing missiles.


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## TaimiKhan

Abi said:


> Buying missiles is not the same as developing missiles.



And that you say by looking at this graphic image which can't even properly show what Shaheen series missile looks like. 

Ever compared the real missiles and seen the difference ??? 

Pathetic.

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## Abi

Here you go: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Dong&#37;20Feng/DF.htm


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## Hammy007

Abi said:


> Buying missiles is not the same as developing missiles.



what a punk really


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## TaimiKhan

Abi said:


> Here you go: Chinese DF-11 and DF-15 missile families



Did you even read it first ??? Let me help you with just the first para, read it carefully:

" *It can not be denied, that the Pakistani solid fuel rockets Ghaznavi and Shaheen-1 are similar to the Chinese DF-11 missile type.* On photos is recognizable, that the Chinese DF-11 and DF-11A by set of some solid fuel segments are built.The DF-11 uses two segments. For the DF-11A is a third segment added.* For the Pakistani Shaheen-1 is a further half segment added.* All rocket types have the same diameter of 0.88 m. *The Shaheen-1 have however a striking extended skirt in the nozzle area, because the nozzle has a larger diameter.* "

So if they are exact copies and bought from abroad, then why the difference being told, which can be seen in the red highlighted part. 

Even the author is using the word probably many times, suggesting he is even not sure himself. He deems Shaheen 2 to be a copy of M-18, but where is M-18 picture. If there is no picture of M-18, then how the hell can he make the similarity. 

So read before you come up with your these sarcastic remarks.

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## Kompromat

monitor said:


> both china and pakistan took help from ukrain in getting air launch cruse missile of ussr the famous kh-55 and also suspition of copying tomahak from which landed in pakistan .whether its true or propaganda we dont know . but after seeing babur we are not hearing any development of any long range cruse missile by pakistan or even ship/submarin launch version of babur.



dear sir producing missiles is a little bit complex than making Cadbury chocklate.
Naval version of babur is under development and it maybe tested when ready.

I also believe that recent tests which were not made public but were reported later on supposedly included a New missile system code named Hataf VII god knows what it was.

There were reports of an extended range and speed variant of Babur Cruise missile being developed but nothing has come up yet.

Turkey is quite interested in the naval version of babur that it can be integrated on Milgem corvetts and TF2000 frigates in the future to be used by both navys.

regards.


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## Kompromat

TaimiKhan said:


> Did you even read it first ??? Let me help you with just the first para, read it carefully:
> 
> " *It can not be denied, that the Pakistani solid fuel rockets Ghaznavi and Shaheen-1 are similar to the Chinese DF-11 missile type.* On photos is recognizable, that the Chinese DF-11 and DF-11A by set of some solid fuel segments are built.The DF-11 uses two segments. For the DF-11A is a third segment added.* For the Pakistani Shaheen-1 is a further half segment added.* All rocket types have the same diameter of 0.88 m. *The Shaheen-1 have however a striking extended skirt in the nozzle area, because the nozzle has a larger diameter.* "
> 
> So if they are exact copies and bought from abroad, then why the difference being told, which can be seen in the red highlighted part.
> 
> Even the author is using the word probably many times, suggesting he is even not sure himself. He deems Shaheen 2 to be a copy of M-18, but where is M-18 picture. If there is no picture of M-18, then how the hell can he make the similarity.
> 
> So read before you come up with your these sarcastic remarks.




No no its all wrong in fact shaheen series are actually Iranian Shahab Missiles which we bought from them and then painted in a different color scheme .

Let them live in their pipe dreams _


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## Abi

> The Shaheen-II is evidently a Pakistani version of the Chinese M-18, which was originally shown at the 1987 Beijing air show as a two-stage missile with 1000 kms range carrying a 400-500 kilogram payload.



Ghaznavi / Shaheen-II - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems

There is no proof that they're even made in Pakistan and a lot of credible sources cast doubts over this and say they're probably imported.


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## Imran Khan

Abi said:


> Ghaznavi / Shaheen-II - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems
> 
> There is no proof that they're even made in Pakistan and a lot of credible sources cast doubts over this and say they're probably imported.



count 1 more indian troll here

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## Abi

TaimiKhan said:


> So if they are exact copies and bought from abroad, then why the difference being told, which can be seen in the red highlighted part.



A further segment added is not a huge feat is it? China, the country that developed this missile added a segment from the DF-11 to make the DF-11A, are you telling me they couldn't add another segment?




> Even the author is using the word probably many times, suggesting he is even not sure himself. He deems Shaheen 2 to be a copy of M-18, but where is M-18 picture. If there is no picture of M-18, then how the hell can he make the similarity.




The M-18 is identical to the Shaheen 2, just compare the pictures yourself, and a lot more credible sites confirm it.


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## TaimiKhan

Abi said:


> A further segment added is not a huge feat is it? China, the country that developed this missile added a segment from the DF-11 to make the DF-11A, are you telling me they couldn't add another segment?



If you think adding half segment or putting some other minor design change is a kids play, well then your knowledge about missiles and defence products is laughable. 






> The M-18 is identical to the Shaheen 2, just compare the pictures yourself, and a lot more credible sites confirm it.



I have so far not seen any picture of M-18 missile on internet, your help in this regard would be needed. 

And here is the supposed to be M-18s specifications:

Propellant	Solid
Guidance	Inertial

Deployment	mobile
Range (km)	1,000-1,200
Re-entry Vehicle Mass (kg)	400-500
Warhead Yield	conventional
Lethal Radius
[soft target]	10 meters [crater]
60 meters [unitary]
250 meters [submunition]
CEP (meters)	200

And here is something related to Shaheed 2:

The *re-entry vehicle carried* by the Shaheen-II missile has a mass of *1050kg*, which includes the mass of a nuclear warhead and a terminal guidance system. The terminal guidance system is most likely a *radar correlation terminal seeker*, which allows the warhead to achieve a *CEP in the range of 30-50 m*. 

Operational range 2,500 km 


Nearly everything double to the M-18.


So now quit your these pathetic troll posts as you can't proof anything.

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## TaimiKhan

Abi said:


> Ghaznavi / Shaheen-II - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems
> 
> There is no proof that they're even made in Pakistan and a lot of credible sources cast doubts over this and say they're probably imported.



Casting doubts and proving with credible proof are two different things, understand the difference.

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## Kompromat

TaimiKhan said:


> Casting doubts and proving with credible proof are two different things, understand the difference.



Lets forget about if its a Pakistan production or not for a second.
lets asume we bought it from china as abi is trying to prove all right then even if we have bought those MRBM from china it shows the nature of sinopak relationship that they would even supply us ballistic missiles if needed.

On the other hand here is Iran ready to pay mouth full money for S300 to russians for saving their @$$ from Israelis and they are being put down for a god damn air defense system by russians on israeli pressure.

it shows how much you are wanted on the world stage and because of your stupid stone age govt no one would help iran to defend itself.


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## sanasahil

Hello and thanks for providing the informative and great post..

I can only say that you done a great job.. I am job hunter tips provider and my aim is to see most of the Pakistani people on job.. Good work

Have a good day!

Sana


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## My-Analogous

Abi said:


> A further segment added is not a huge feat is it? China, the country that developed this missile added a segment from the DF-11 to make the DF-11A, are you telling me they couldn't add another segment?.




you means to say that only china have right to add segment ? 




Abi said:


> The M-18 is identical to the Shaheen 2, just compare the pictures yourself, and a lot more credible sites confirm it.



Yes and Raad missile look similar to us one so as per theory *made in US*


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## Jigs

Is there even a picture of the M-18 ? Isn't the DF-25 based on this ? The one that got canceled.


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## TaimiKhan

Jigs said:


> Is there even a picture of the M-18 ? Isn't the DF-25 based on this ? The one that got canceled.



No confirm official picture of M-18 so far.


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## Peregrine

Hi
Pakistan missiles are indigenous or not, what matters is that they are in working conditions and we have nuclear war heads to go with them, we surely can kick some serious butt, as for those who point a finger at Pakistan forget that there are 3 fingers being pointed right at them, we are not behind our enemy incase a nuclear war erupts, but some will be getting a serious whooping  in case they are attacked or engage a war with their respective enemies


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## air marshal




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## infotechproximity9

i personally believe that with in mine time pakistan will be a super power in missle with the bussiness with china.... insha allah we rocks....


We believe in minimum deterrance and have no ambition nor the means to become a global power.
For India its a different story, they have the ambition and will develop ICBM's intime,
_


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## khurasaan1

melb4aust said:


> Yeah im a bit concern about that as well. Like in past I wasn't expecting Pakistan to develope a cruise missile, that was kind of surprise:disappointed: and im sure they are capable of further more surprises like that.



Yes Alhamdolillah they r capable...


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## theboss

infotechproximity9 said:


> i personally believe that with in mine time pakistan will be a super power in missle with the bussiness with china.... insha allah we rocks....
> 
> 
> We believe in minimum deterrance and have no ambition nor the means to become a global power.
> For India its a different story, they have the ambition and will develop ICBM's intime,
> _



Last time i check, developing ICBM is considered world threat and US, UK and rest of the world will move in swift action?? Who are the indians fighting with such an offensive weapon?? They cant blame Pakistan because its right on their border!


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## owcc

India will not have to fight anyone with an ICBM.But its technology is instrumental for Indias global ambitions .


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## theboss

Could be useful for developing SLV which India already has.
Usually all ICBM project take life as civilian SLV project.


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## Arsalan

Black Blood said:


> No no its all wrong in fact shaheen series are actually Iranian Shahab Missiles which we bought from them and then painted in a different color scheme .
> 
> Let them live in their pipe dreams _



and the iranian Shahab Missile are actually nothing but fire crrckers. infact the developed them after a fire cracker use in fir works of sydney olympics landed in iran. the reversed engineered it and built Shahab. Pakistan simply bought them from Iran.

i hope Abi you will be happy now!!
good for you,,,,
just hit the thanks button.

Abi, do not take care of any sensible post posted here, 
coz 
they will hurt you!

i will request taimi Khan to take care in future...

regards!


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## junaid1

nice article


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## aks18

i read sum where that ghaznavi missile is too fast any anti ballistic missile shield cant counter it .... is it true ????


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## Guerilla

i congratulate pakistan on its military efforts and capabilities...

however i believe the best for pakistan to depend on is missilearsenal from all ranges especially longer ballistics...

and to concentrate on air defence systems,proper missiles at our modern time can be of a great use because of their area of damage,Long range,sensible costs and not forget how accurate missiles have became and the most important part that pakistan can make use of its nuclear arsenal by providing these missiles with Nuke-Warheads.

that way pakistan will have the power of defense,hold for long time in wars because any future war will last a while and will gain the power of delivering hits to the core of the enemy and most important targets to hit.

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

aks18 said:


> i read sum where that ghaznavi missile is too fast any anti ballistic missile shield cant counter it .... is it true ????



essentially interception of ballestic missiles depends on following factor:
1. location of launch.
2. speed of incoming ballestic missile.
3. time available with radar to process signals and give input to anti ballestic missile to make it launch.
4. time taken to launch Anti ballestic missile.

given the favourable conditions any missile can break ABM shield.


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## WAR-rior

aks18 said:


> i read sum where that ghaznavi missile is too fast any anti ballistic missile shield cant counter it .... is it true ????



ya it might be true coz indian AAD is for long range missiles......in case of short range we need other system.......hope u understand why india is pursuing iron dome ,david's sling ?


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## laiqs@mi

read Iron Dom thread and then discuss it here. 
hawa main teer na chalao


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## khurasaan1

PAK needz ICBMs for its National security and integrity...hmmmm


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## Surrender2me

khurasaan1 said:


> PAK needz ICBMs for its National security and integrity...hmmmm


yea its a good Idea....
I think they should officially start now..
That would be a good answer for american aggression..
And they would be smooth on pakistan in future..


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## abaseen99

Pakistan Missile Milestones - 1961-2005

The Risk Report
Volume 12 Number 1 (January-February 2006)



1961: Establishment of the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO), Pakistan's space agency.

1962: The U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) helps train Pakistani scientists and engineers. Pakistan launches its first sounding rocket.

1985: Congress passes the Pressler Amendment barring U.S. aid unless the U.S. president can certify Pakistan does not possess a nuclear explosive device.

1989: According to Pakistani sources, Hatf-1 and Hatf-2 missiles are fired to ranges of 80 and 300 kilometers respectively. Pakistan and China also sign a ten-year cooperation agreement in defense science, technology and industry, including joint procurement, research and development, production and technology transfer.

1990: President Bush can no longer certify Pakistan has no nuclear weapons. The United States suspends military aid to Pakistan.

July 1990: Pakistan's first satellite, the 50 kg Badr-A (Badr-1), is launched as part of a test flight of China's Long March 2E booster, according to Aviation Week and Space Technology.

1991: The United States punishes two Chinese entities and Pakistan's SUPARCO for missile proliferation activities.

April 1991: The Washington Post reports that U.S. intelligence agencies have spotted what appears to be a number of launch vehicles for Chinese M-11 ballistic missiles in Pakistan.

December 1991: A Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman announces that China's Ministry of Aerospace Industry and Pakistan's SUPARCO have signed an agreement on cooperation in the peaceful application of space sciences and technology.

January 1992: The New York Times cites senior Bush administration officials as stating that China has delivered guidance systems for M-11 ballistic missiles to Pakistan.

June 1992: The U.S. Department of Commerce amends the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) to clarify which destinations will require a validated license "when an exporter knows that the items will be used in the design, development, production or use of missiles." Pakistan's Hatf series is among the missile programs targeted.

1993: The United States punishes Pakistan's Ministry of Defense and ten Chinese entities for missile proliferation activities.

1994: Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto says the testing and deployment of India's Prithvi surface-to-surface missile "threatens to trigger a missile race in the subcontinent."

1995: U.S. intelligence says it has strong evidence that Pakistan is building storage sheds, mobile launchers and maintenance facilities at the Sargodha military airbase for Chinese-supplied M-11 missiles.

May 1995: The periodical Flight International reports U.S. authorities are warning that Pakistan's SUPARCO has approached companies in several European countries to acquire, among other items, composites, specialist alloy, and a range of production and testing equipment for producing ballistic missiles.

July 1995: U.S. intelligence says evidence is incontrovertible that storage crates at Sargodha Air Force Base contain more than 30 M-11 medium range ballistic missiles (MRBM), delivered by China in 1992. Both Pakistan and China deny the deal.

March 1996: Taiwan confiscates 15 tons of ammonium perchlorate, used in the production of missile propellant, from a North Korean freighter bound for SUPARCO.

June 1996: Intelligence reports claim that Pakistan has uncrated and deployed the M-11 missiles.

July-December 1996: The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) states that Pakistan is making "strong efforts to acquire an indigenous capability in missile production technologies," and that China "was a major supplier to Pakistan's ballistic missile program, providing technology and assistance."

October 1996: The Washington Post reports that, according to a classified U.S. National Intelligence Estimate, Pakistan may have developed nuclear warheads to mount on its M-11 missiles. U.S. intelligence officials also state that China is assisting Pakistan to build a medium-range missile factory in a Rawalpindi suburb, anticipated in a year or two to be able to produce most of the major components of a Chinese M-11 missile.

December 1996: Hong Kong custom officers raid a Chinese vessel and find 10 metric tons of ammonium perchlorate. The cargo is believed to have been shipped by the North Korean company Lyongaksan and bound for SUPARCO.

1997: The CIA states that Chinese and North Korean entities continued to provide assistance to Pakistan's ballistic missile program, which is "critical for Islamabad's efforts to achieve independence from foreign sources and to produce long-range ballistic missiles."

April 1998: Pakistan tests the Ghauri surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile. According to Pakistani sources, the liquid-fueled missile can carry a 700 kilogram payload 1,500 kilometers.

May 1998: The U.S. State Department imposes two-year sanctions on Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) and Changgwang Sinyong Corporation of North Korea for cooperating on missile development.

May 1998: Pakistan sets off nuclear weapon tests in response to India's.

July 1998: The Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States, led by Donald H. Rumsfeld, concludes that Pakistan has acquired production facilities to build the Ghauri missile, which is described as a version of the North Korean Nodong. It also concludes that Pakistan possesses M-11 missiles obtained from China and may be able to produce the "Tarmuk" missile based on the Chinese M-11.

August 1998: Pakistan claims it has recovered an American Tomahawk missile, which was fired during an American attack against terrorist camps in Afghanistan. Some Pakistani officials claim the find was a "jackpot" that could help advance Pakistan's missile technology, but American defense officials disagree.

September 1998: Pakistan completes a mobile, re-usable launcher designed for use with the solid-fueled, nuclear-capable Shaheen-I ballistic missile.

January 1999: Pakistan announces it is ready to test the Shaheen-I missile. The solid fuel missile has a range of 750 kilometers, and is designed to counter India's nuclear-capable Prithvi missiles.

February 1999: Indian Prime Minister A. B. Vajpayee and Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif meet in Lahore, Pakistan. The leaders agree to exchange strategic information about their nuclear arsenals, to give each other advance notice of ballistic missile tests, and to increase efforts to resolve the Kashmir issue.

April 1999: Pakistan tests the liquid-fuel Ghauri-II (Hatf-VI) surface-to-surface missile in response to India's test of the Agni-II missile. KRL officials claim that the missile has a range of 2,300 kilometers. The next day, Pakistan successfully tests the Shaheen-I missile.

September 1999: KRL successfully tests the engine of the new Ghauri-III ballistic missile. The Pakistani Foreign Ministry claims the Ghauri-III will have a range of 2,700-3,000 kilometers, which would allow Pakistan to target all of India.

February 2000: Pakistan tests the 100-kilometer-range Hatf 1A solid-fueled surface-to-surface missile, developed by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC).

March 2000: Pakistan unveils the road-mobile, solid-fuel, two-stage Shaheen-II MRBM at the annual Pakistan Day parade. Pakistani authorities claim it has a range of 2,500 kilometers and can carry a 1,000 kilogram payload.

March 2001: The periodical Dawn cites Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan (a.k.a. A.Q. Khan) as saying that Pakistani scientists are developing the nation's first Satellite Launch Vehicle (SLV) under SUPARCO.

June 2001: According to a senior U.S. nonproliferation official cited in the periodical Nuclear Fuel, experts from the Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) in Kahuta and experts from North Korea are cooperating on the development of solid-fuel missiles.

July-December 2001: The CIA's Unclassified Report to Congress on the Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions reports that Chinese entities continue to provide "significant assistance," enabling Pakistan to move "toward serial production of solid-propellant SRBMs such as Shaheen-I and Haider-I." The report adds that Pakistan "needs continued Chinese assistance to support development of the two-stage Shaheen-II MRBM."

August 2001: According to the Deputy Director of the CIA, John E. McLaughlin, North Korea transferred the 1,300 km-range Nodong ballistic missile to Pakistan.

January 2003: The Ghauri (Hatf-V) medium-range ballistic missile is transferred to Pakistan's Army for induction.

January-June 2003: According to the CIA's unclassified report to Congress on proliferation, Chinese entities continue to provide assistance for Pakistan's ballistic missile program despite a Chinese pledge to the United States in November 2000 to end such assistance to nuclear-capable ballistic missile programs.

March 2004: The periodical Press Trust of India reports that Pakistan has test-fired the 2,000 km-range Shaheen-II (Hatf-VI) missile for the first time.

July 2004: During an interview with the periodical Asahi Shimbun, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto is quoted as saying that Pakistan obtained missile technology from North Korea after Bhutto's December 1993 goodwill mission. Bhutto emphasizes that missiles were not exchanged for nuclear technology.

September 2004: Pakistan's National Assembly passes the Export Control on Goods, Technologies, Material and Equipment Related to Nuclear and Biological Weapons and their Delivery Systems Act. The finalized bill, posted in November by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), defines delivery systems as "missiles exclusively designed and adapted to deliver a nuclear or biological weapon." It covers "every citizen of Pakistan or person in the service of Pakistan within and beyond Pakistan or any Pakistani visiting or working abroad, any foreign national while in the territories of Pakistan and any ground transport, ship or aircraft registered in Pakistan wherever it may be."

August 2005: India and Pakistan reach an agreement on notification of flight-testing of ballistic missiles, following two days of talks on nuclear confidence-building measures.

August 2005: According to a Pakistani military spokesman, Pakistan successfully tests its first nuclear-capable, ground-launched 500 km-range Babur cruise missile.

August 2005: India's Scientific Advisor to the Defense Minister states that Pakistan's Babur missile is not supersonic or indigenously developed as Pakistan claimed. New Delhi Force, an independent Indian magazine, alleges that the Babur resulted from the transfer of technology from China's state-owned China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. (CPMIEC) to Pakistan's state-owned National Development Complex (NDC).

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## abaseen99

Pakistan
The strategic competition with India has spurred Pakistani efforts to acquire ballistic missiles, which it claims to have done without assistance. Pakistan's missile industry includes a large solid rocket motor production complex and a ballistic missile test facility. Chinese and more recently North Korea assistance has sustained these efforts. Pakistan's missile effort evidently consists of three components: 
The short range Hatf-1 and Hatf-2, which are apparently of Pakistani design and construction, were developed by the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO). These missiles seem to have proven a disappointment, due probably in no small measure to their modest range, and do not appear to have entered operational service. 
The Shaheen series of solid-propellant missiles are imports from China by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC), which is also responsible for Pakistan's plutonium bomb program. The Chinese M-11 missile was obtained from China in the early 1990s, and tested with considerable publicity in mid-1999. The longer range Shaheen-I and Shaheen-II appear to correspond to the Chinese M-9 and DF-15, respectively, though there is presently no solid evidence that Pakistan has obtained either missile. 
More recently, the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, which is also responsible for Pakistan's uranium bomb program, has imported and tested the North Korean Nodong missile under the name Ghauri. Imports of the longer range Taepodong missiles may also be under consideration. 

Designation Foreign
derivation Range (km) Payload (kg) First Launch Operational Inventory Comments 
Hatf-1 60-100 500 Jan 1989 testing some? 
Hatf-2 Shadoz 280 500 Jan 1989 cancelled none 
Shaheen Hatf-3 ? PRC M-11 300 500 15 April 1999 1995? ~34-80? 
Shaheen-I Hatf-4 ? PRC M-9 800 500 
Shaheen-II Hatf-6 PRC M-18 2,000 09 March 2004 some 
Ghauri Hatf-5 DPRK ND-1 1,350-1,500 700 kg 06 April 1998 1998? some Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Iran (Shehab-3). 
Ghauri-III Abdali DPRK TD-1 ?? 2,500 
Tipu DPRK TD-2 ?? 4,000 
Ghaznavi ?,000


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## rabia tareen

Really nice post, thanks for sharing so much information. I have a question in my mind, is Pakistan working on inter-continental ballistic missile programme?


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## Kompromat

rabia tareen said:


> Really nice post, thanks for sharing so much information. I have a question in my mind, is Pakistan working on inter-continental ballistic missile programme?


 
Apparently , yes.

ICBM: Pakistan intercontinental missile underway | Pakistan Daily


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## khurasaan1

This is an old newz in 2009...but havent seen any tests so far for the ICBMS....


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## Windjammer



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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


>


 
which missile is this?


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## Najam Khan

Iam making a huuuuuuuge wallpaper on Pakistani Missiles, the cavas size is 3456X2160 pixels...following is its snap shot, i'll upload when its done

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## Najam Khan

mafiya said:


> which missile is this?


 
I believe its Shaheen-II.


Some HR versions.

Shaheen

Ghaznavi


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## BelligerentPacifist

NAjAM Khan said:


> I believe its Shaheen-II.
> 
> ..


Not in a million years will this be a Shaheen-2. This is a DF-11 or a Ghaznawi, depending on which country it is in. The only missile Pakistan got from the PRC.


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## Windjammer

mafiya said:


> which missile is this?


 
Hataf-3 Ghaznavi.


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## farhan_9909

any updates about the Hatf 10.

i mean the Pakistani SAM?

when it will be tested and what about its intercepting range

thanx in advance


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## khurasaan1

farhan_9909 said:


> any updates about the Hatf 10.
> 
> i mean the Pakistani SAM?
> 
> when it will be tested and what about its intercepting range
> 
> thanx in advance


 
No info right now...


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## farhan_9909

khurasaan1 said:


> No info right now...


 
hmm


may be some other member has the info
because this secret was revealed in this forum.


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## Najam Khan

Sorry for going off the topic.
Aren't we becoming too open these days...? uploading war time strategies, inside information of any a/c or missile should not be encouraged...
IMO in the name of knowledge and news we are getting too close to a disaster.... in fact its counter productive.

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## M.SAAD

Nice and Pretty Informative thread....Keep it alive...


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## AUz

india rocks said:


> does pakistan has ABM ????


 
Apparently No ....but you never know

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## araz

NAjAM Khan said:


> Sorry for going off the topic.
> Aren't we becoming too open these days...? uploading war time strategies, inside information of any a/c or missile should not be encouraged...
> IMO in the name of knowledge and news we are getting too close to a disaster.... in fact its counter productive.


 
Report posts that you think compromise national integrity and security. It should be discussed at MOds otr TT level.
Araz

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## ziaulislam

Abi said:


> A further segment added is not a huge feat is it? China, the country that developed this missile added a segment from the DF-11 to make the DF-11A, are you telling me they couldn't add another segment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The M-18 is identical to the Shaheen 2, just compare the pictures yourself, and a lot more credible sites confirm it.


\


a credible site is defined as any non Pakistani site 
while a not credible site is defined as pakistan or chinese official sites

under this definition i doubt even a country named Pakistan exist....

last question..what about missles which have no counter parts like Raad and ghaznvi or the nasr etc..i think they were developed by india or iran but we stole the design during testing..


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## Secur

> What are you talking about? We know all those before hand because the Chinese told us. ALL your missiles are based on Chinese technology and we know they have not shipped you one design for their ICBMs.


 Oh yeah the Chinese told you before shipping us the missiles lol So stupid you sound here ... You would have done / will do everything in your power to deprive Pakistan of nuclear weapons if you had the power  dont tell this to your friends at Knesset lol ... If indeed the US Govt knows everything , how come some stone agers rocked the NORAD and FAA and your whole nation on 9/11 ?    


Dont bother replying to trolls ... they once thought that Pakistan cant even exist beyond 2-3 years let alone develop nuclear weapons and give them a pain in the *** lol


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## DARKY

Now what most of the members have been advocating here about the possible ICBM is very difficult to attain.... with precision.
An ICBM is a totally different thing as compared to an Intermediate ranged Ballistic missiles or a short range ballistic missiles.....the difference is far bigger than what the engineers find while graduating from the level of short range cruise missiles to long range cruise missiles...... I would like to point out a few points here about the "MOREs" an ICBM has over IRBM and SRBM.

1. Higher speed,
2. Higher altitude,
3. better heat shielding coatings,
4. Auto-mated computer to control the missile in mid course,
5. Better controls,
6. Flex nozzel,
8. Highly efficient heat shielding material which can save the warhead from disintegrating in Space,
9. Better paint coating to reduce drag,
10. Better guidance to save it from very large deviations at the high speed reentry.... when even 1-2 degrees can prove to be disastrous.

There are many more shortcomings which even a scientifically rich country in the field of SRBM/IRBM aswell as Space launchers can have.... I would like to introduce you to the 1st test of Agni III when every thing was right while the missile dropped in the sea during its midcourse.... When they recalculated and examined the debris they found that the speed of the missile was so high that is caused the hot gas to enter the missile's flex nozzel and caused the wiring overthere to melt and hence the automatic computer lost the control of flex nozzel and hence aborted the flight by shutting down the missile..... the problem was rectified thanks to the Mathematicians who pointed out the designing flaws of the flex nozzel which was later rectified by engineers to have this missile inducted very fast in the armed forces.

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## magtimes

WebMaster said:


> *Pakistan now outstrip Indias nuclear and ballistic weapons *
> genlodi
> 
> Pakistan on Tuesday successfully test fired a short range Surface to Surface Ballistic Missile Hataf-2 Abdali.
> 
> According to the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the missile is capable of hitting surface-to-surface targets.
> 
> The missile test had cheered almost every Pakistani at every time they listened the news of missile test; the reason is that India is considered as rival enemy of Pakistan and almost three wars had been fought so far between both countries.
> 
> Pakistan's nuclear energy programme was started in 1956, following the establishment of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC). Thanks to China who had been alleged to play a major role in the establishment of Pakistan's nuclear weapons development infrastructure, especially, when increasingly stringent export controls in the western countries made it difficult for Pakistan to acquire nuclear materials and technology from elsewhere.
> 
> Pakistans missile build-up all along has been India-centric. Unlike India, which has to take the China threat into consideration, Pakistan has the luxury to focus its entire missile build-up on Indian developments.
> 
> Strategically, Pakistan has today not only offset Indias overwhelming conventional military superiority by its nuclear weaponisation but also acquired a missile force which in terms of speed of acquisition outstrips Indias pace of development of missiles. China prominently and DPRK by proxy have significantly contributed to Pakistans missile build-up. China has even provided a complete plant in 1995 to produce M-11 nuclear capable M-11 missiles and their variants in Pakistan.
> The series of Missiles Pakistan have are as
> 
> HATF Series - HATF series formed the initial component of the Pakistani missile arsenal. Besides the nuclear capability of HATF II and III, in the conventional mode it was designed as an offensive weapon to knock off Indian armour concentrations. In the defensive mode, it would be used in dual roles to destroy Indian bridgeheads in Pakistani territory. Its chief use could be said to be along Pakistani borders with India, both inside and outside.
> 
> GHAURI series - With its extended range, the GHAURI series could effectively reach virtually the whole of India but it seems that the strategic targeting of this missile would be more towards Mumbai and Peninsular India in which lie Indias most sensitive installations. GHAURI is a mobile system and could be used for counter-value-strikes. Pakistan claims that GHAURI can carry nuclear, chemical and anti-tank warheads.
> 
> SHAHEEN series - SHAHEEN II unveiled on Pakistan Day Parade this year (March 23,2000) is Pakistans answer to Indias Agni II. It has as all India coverage, but can be said to have Mumbai and Peninsular India as the main target. With its ground mobility and solid-state propellant systems it should logically form the backbone of Pakistani nuclear deterrent. With mobility comes survivability and therefore the SHAHEEN II could impart to Pakistan a second strike capability in the future.
> 
> In terms of future perspectives, the following can be said about Pakistans missile build-up:
> 
> Pakistans missile force would form the main delivery system for its nuclear weapons. Pakistans emphasis on a "credible minimum deterrent" would call for matching responses to Indias missile developments in terms of ranges and payloads. This would imply that the GHAURI and SHAHEEN series would receive priorities in terms of range and payload modifications. In terms of ICBM capability, Pakistan would definitely aspire for it, but a host of factors are stacked against her. Even China, Pakistans nuclear weapons and missiles benefactor would hesitate to impart ICBM capability to Pakistan, for strategic reasons.
> 
> Indian media and Indian analysts are looking extra concern over the news of Pakistans missile panel that it is now exceeding them. Number of articles and media shows has been created that the complete constituency of India can be under Pakistans attack if there would be any thing wrong. Because the Ghouri series missiles has range across the Indian border towards Bangladesh.

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## philiprambo

thanks a lot for sharing.

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## farhan_9909

any updates about the Shaheen III and Ghauri III?

what about the SAM?

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## Farooqi

very good MISSILE TECHNOLOGy

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## Sania Saleem

very nice post

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## killerx

Farooqi said:


> very good MISSILE TECHNOLOGy



nice troll mate


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## killerx

Sania Saleem said:


> very nice post



very nice troll


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## Peaceful Civilian

We still have Long way to go. I am not denigrating, as we produced Latest stuff and tech. Missile Sheen1, Nasr and other stuff were honed to perfection. Babur and raad cruise missile added decent aggressive capability, Also harpoon and other missiles But, *Look at our neighbor*. Just in 4-5 years how are they rapidly progressing in Missile technology. Even people are ranting they can't fly,and those are Russian missile and talking a lot fallacious argument .Even with the help of Russia, Hypersonic missile with the speed of 10 Mach will be truculent .From defense point of view this is very enigmatic How long will you stay here . 
For religious people, Orison is not enough as it did not work in Libya or Iraq, To live a tranquil life in the country needs higher/latest defense equipment/capability and this is the errand of the government to provide latest military equipment which could save us from the Baneful country.
Also i think, We badly need the Ramjet propulsion system to accelerate the vehicle around 4 Mach..

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## Zarvan

Peaceful Civlian said:


> We still have Long way to go. I am not denigrating, as we produced Latest stuff and tech. Missile Sheen1, Nasr and other stuff were honed to perfection. Babur and raad cruise missile added decent aggressive capability, Also harpoon and other missiles But, *Look at our neighbor*. Just in 4-5 years how are they rapidly progressing in Missile technology. Even people are ranting they can't fly,and those are Russian missile and talking a lot fallacious argument .Even with the help of Russia, Hypersonic missile with the speed of 10 Mach will be truculent .From defense point of view this is very enigmatic How long will you stay here .
> For religious people, Orison is not enough as it did not work in Libya or Iraq, To live a tranquil life in the country needs higher/latest defense equipment/capability and this is the errand of the government to provide latest military equipment which could save us from the Baneful country.
> Also i think, We badly need the Ramjet propulsion system to accelerate the vehicle around 4 Mach..


Sir first Pakistan is doing what it is supposed to do we have already developed the longer range missiles in other words ICBM but we haven't just shown them to the world because of political reasons and as far super sonic Indian Missiles are concerned I only have one thing to say

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## Gessler

Peaceful Civlian said:


> We still have Long way to go. I am not denigrating, as we produced Latest stuff and tech. Missile Sheen1, Nasr and other stuff were honed to perfection. Babur and raad cruise missile added decent aggressive capability, *Also harpoon and other missiles* But, Look at our neighbor. Just in 4-5 years how are they rapidly progressing in Missile technology. Even people are ranting they can't fly,and those are Russian missile and talking a lot fallacious argument .Even with the help of Russia, Hypersonic missile with the speed of 10 Mach will be truculent .From defense point of view this is very enigmatic How long will you stay here .
> For religious people, Orison is not enough as it did not work in Libya or Iraq, To live a tranquil life in the country needs higher/latest defense equipment/capability and this is the errand of the government to provide latest military equipment which could save us from the Baneful country.
> Also i think, We badly need the Ramjet propulsion system to accelerate the vehicle around 4 Mach..



Last time I checked, Harpoon was still an American missile.


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## Cool_Soldier

He meant to say harpoons are in Pak navy's inventory..


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## Gessler

Cool_Soldier said:


> He meant to say harpoons are in Pak navy's inventory..



Pak does not produce harpoon -



Peaceful Civlian said:


> We still have Long way to go. I am not denigrating, *as we produced Latest stuff and tech. Missile Sheen1, Nasr and other stuff were honed to perfection. Babur and raad cruise missile added decent aggressive capability, Also harpoon and other missiles* But, Look at our neighbor. Just in 4-5 years how are they rapidly progressing in Missile technology. Even people are ranting they can't fly,and those are Russian missile and talking a lot fallacious argument .Even with the help of Russia, Hypersonic missile with the speed of 10 Mach will be truculent .From defense point of view this is very enigmatic How long will you stay here .
> For religious people, Orison is not enough as it did not work in Libya or Iraq, To live a tranquil life in the country needs higher/latest defense equipment/capability and this is the errand of the government to provide latest military equipment which could save us from the Baneful country.
> Also i think, We badly need the Ramjet propulsion system to accelerate the vehicle around 4 Mach..



The other missiles he said are built in pakistan,,,might as well include Chinese C-802 if otherwise.


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## Peaceful Civilian

gessler said:


> Pak does not produce harpoon -


I also said honed to perfection. Read post again


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## Thorough Pro

gessler said:


> Pak does not produce harpoon -
> 
> as we produced Latest stuff and tech. Missile Sheen1, Nasr and other stuff were honed to perfection. Babur and raad cruise missile added decent aggressive capability, Also harpoon and other missiles
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...stan-missile-technology-17.html#ixzz27cUjmZCk
> 
> The other missiles he said are built in pakistan,,,might as well include Chinese C-802 if otherwise.



Do you see that small round *** between "Perfection" and "Babur"? It looks like (.) this. In english language this "***" means that one sentence is complete and a new sentense has started.

For additional infofollow the link below or "GOOGLE"

Full stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## jobsikd

I hope we will develop ICBMs very soon and then america can't be able to treat us like that...

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## batmannow

there are rummours, that pakistan already hve HQ9s in its inventry, plz confrim it?
thanks


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## Dr. Strangelove

batmannow said:


> there are rummours, that pakistan already hve HQ9s in its inventry, plz confrim it?
> thanks


yes but they are only rumours


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## batmannow

wasm95 said:


> yes but they are only rumours



Beta jee, when you don't know something thn better keep quite !
You still r too unexperinced to give me any answer.


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## v9s

batmannow said:


> Beta jee, when you don't know something thn better keep quite !
> You still r too unexperinced to give me any answer.



It was leaked on this very forum by someone. 

Someone high up in the Army was very displeased about the leak too...


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## karan21

Okk I need to ask something:

Every country tests technology demonstrator missiles to test techs like solid rocket engines and navigation and accuracy etc etc. India did that doo. But I never heard of Pakistan. You guys straight came out with missile that never failed or veered of path. How did that happen??? Such mastry over a complex tech????

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## MM_Haider

karan21 said:


> Okk I need to ask something:
> 
> Every country tests technology demonstrator missiles to test techs like solid rocket engines and navigation and accuracy etc etc. India did that *doo*. But I never heard of Pakistan. You guys straight came out with missile that never failed or veered of path. How did that happen??? Such *mastry* over a complex tech????



we buy plug and play stuff via OLX.com.pk which is delivered via secure shipment of TCS.

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## v9s

karan21 said:


> Okk I need to ask something:
> 
> Every country tests technology demonstrator missiles to test techs like solid rocket engines and navigation and accuracy etc etc. India did that doo. But I never heard of Pakistan. You guys straight came out with missile that never failed or veered of path. How did that happen??? Such mastry over a complex tech????



This question has been answered a thousand times and has been discussed to death.

Yes, we do have failures. No, they aren't reported.


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## Safriz

v9s said:


> This question has been answered a thousand times and has been discussed to death.
> 
> Yes, we do have failures. No, they aren't reported.



Another reason is that pakistan doesnt try to reinvent the wheel.
Well proved off the shelf components and copying a design thats known to work...


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## fatman17

*Pakistans missile capability*


Muhammad Daheem


Pakistan started planning its missile program to equip its forces with short and medium range missiles to enhance its defense capabilities in 1987. It has, now, various types of missiles programs, including ballistic missiles, based on highly accurate technology. It developed its ballistic missile program rapidly to counter the enemys attack. Anza was developed under the shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile program. Later on, anti-tank Baktarshikan missile programs was introduced in 1987. Pakistan tested its short range surface-to-surface ballistic missile in 1988. The pace of production of short-range missiles is reasonable.

The modest range of Hatf I is 80 kilometers and it can carry a load of 500 kilograms. Efforts continued to improve its performance, resulting in Hatf II with an enhanced range of 250 kilometers and the same payload of 500 kilograms. Both are free flight missiles with inertial guidance systems following a ballistic trajectory. The Hatf II was produced in 1989. Both were possibly designed and developed by the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO). The testing of Hatf III seems to be a major break-through in the development of missiles technology in Pakistan. It has a range of 600 kilometers with a payload of 500 kilograms and a proper terminal guidance system giving it an accuracy of 0.1 per cent. The main features of Hatf III missile are its two-stage rocket ability for war-head separation, a terminal guidance system and five different types of warheads. The most difficult part of the missile was its guidance system which was developed by Pakistani engineers and scientists. The test firing of Hatf III was necessary to tackle with difficult situation in hard times.

There is a possibility of conventional and nuclear clash between India and Pakistan. Naturally Pakistan needs to develop its missile program to a large-scale industry. India deployed its medium-range ballistic missiles near Pakistans border in 1997. It was a matter of serious concern for Pakistan. In fact, it was dangerous signal towards Pakistans safety. Pakistan carried out its medium range surface ballistic missile program in 1998. It is pertinent to mention here that ballistic missile reaches its target faster than other weapons and is difficult to defend against its attack. The missile system plays vital role in the modern defense technology.

Pakistan made a successful test of medium range surface ballistic missile Hatf V named Ghauri in 1998. It can cover a vast area of India excluding southern and eastern regions, along the Bay of Bengal. It can target its prey 1500 kilometers away. It weighs 16 tons and can carry a payload of about 700 kg. Its flight time is 8 minutes. Its terminal guidance system has been developed by skilful, diligent and dedicated Pakistani scientists and engineers working on the research and development of missile technology. It may have its impact on regional circles. It contributes enormously to the military strength of the nation. A potential aggressor would think hundred times before attacking Pakistan. The Ghauri series are liquid-fuelled ballistic missiles while Shaheen series are solid-fuelled ballistic missiles. The missile system plays key role in the modern war games based on scientific strategies. It is now an essential element in the defense planning of a nation. Moreover, it is an effective and reliable deterrent. Pakistan is now in a position to retaliate its enemies with great force. India, in the past, created a dangerous security atmosphere and made violation of Pakistans air space. Naturally Pakistan got every right to take measures for its security. Shaheen I and Shaheen II, medium range solid-propellant missiles, are the solutions of the enemys evil designs. 

The missile technology is still in the research and development phase in Pakistan. It is key part of the Integrated Missile Research and Development Program. The successful tests of Hatf V and Hatf VI confer on Pakistan a reliable indigenous missile capability.Pakistan tested Hatf VII Babur ground-launched cruise missile in 2005. It has a range of 700 km and can carry a payload of 450 kg. It can carry nuclear warheads and is guided by stealth technology. Pakistan possibly relies mainly on ballistic missiles to overpower Indias defense system. Pakistan has developed Inter-continental Ballistic missile too. It is ready for test flight. History tells us that weak nations have no place in the world community in the presence of ruthless imperialistic forces. Pakistans missile program is an effective and reliable deterrent and provides foundation for lasting peace and security all over the world. Pakistan should deal with the world forces on the basis of sovereign equality and fundamental principles based on human values. Pakistan possesses several different types of missiles and these are led and supervised by the Armed Forces of Pakistan. Several lethal types of missiles are under development process. It is believed that Pakistan is already working on long range Missiles Shaheen 4 and Taimur. Pakistans missile Shaheen-IA was reportedly shot southward to the Indian Ocean and managed to cover some 4,000-4,500 kilometers. This missile covers the whole of Indian region. Indian Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile Agni-V has a range of 5,000 km. It can target any part of China and some regions of Europe. It is generally believed that Pakistan and India have more capable missiles yet not announced publicly. Pakistani scientists and engineers have Intercontinental range ballistic missiles technology in their range.

It is believed that Pakistani engineers and scientists are making rapid progress in the field of MIRV technology. It means military would be in a position to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and launch them at separate targets in different regions. Pakistan claims that it has acquired ballistic missile technology without outside assistance. Nonetheless, it is believed that China and North Korea have assisted Pakistan in its efforts. Moreover, it is believed that several missiles were transported indirectly from Ukraine and Balrus in the nineties. It is the duty of every government to protect the country from foreign aggression and internal subversion. Pakistani scientists and engineers have ability to build missiles of short, medium and long range with proper guidance systems. This program can make Pakistan a strong, stable and prosperous nation.

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## alimobin memon

The main Question that makes me think alot is that our missiles are Rocket propelled , RAMJET and SCRAMJET since the Western officials think that Shaheen 1A is a scramjet engine missile. The Scramjet comprises of max projected speed of mach 19 to initial 20's so what is actual speed of it and if it is scramjet than there is no Anti ballistic to intercept it ...

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## IHK_PK

alimobin memon said:


> The main Question that makes me think alot is that our missiles are Rocket propelled , RAMJET and SCRAMJET since the Western officials think that Shaheen 1A is a scramjet engine missile. The Scramjet comprises of max projected speed of mach 19 to initial 20's so what is actual speed of it and if it is scramjet than there is no Anti ballistic to intercept it ...



Yes you are thinking in the right direction and that's what can be said at this moment.


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## The Deterrent

alimobin memon said:


> The main Question that makes me think alot is that our missiles are Rocket propelled , RAMJET and SCRAMJET since the Western officials think that Shaheen 1A is a scramjet engine missile. The Scramjet comprises of max projected speed of mach 19 to initial 20's so what is actual speed of it and if it is scramjet than there is no Anti ballistic to intercept it ...




What exactly do you mean by "Scramjet"?
Shaheen-IA is propelled by a solid-fueled rocket motor. There is no ramjet/scramjet engine involved (neither we have the capability at the moment).
The speeds (Mach 19-20) you are mentioning are double of what might be the speed of Shaheen-IA IMO. It is a 1000-1200 km range MRBM, not an ICBM.

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## Safriz

alimobin memon said:


> The main Question that makes me think alot is that our missiles are Rocket propelled , RAMJET and SCRAMJET since the Western officials think that Shaheen 1A is a scramjet engine missile. The Scramjet comprises of max projected speed of mach 19 to initial 20's so what is actual speed of it and if it is scramjet than there is no Anti ballistic to intercept it ...



The hint is in the shape of the missiles..
Do you see any air intake in any of them?

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## alimobin memon

It does have scramjet engine according to Islamabad American embassy official revealed it on news which was also show in American news paper . it has powerful engine that the ramjet that was mentioned too and that should be scramjet.
And That is the question we haven't even integrated ramjet and foremost it requires intake. However the speed has dramatically increased and it should be mach 10-10.5 since it is update to shaheen one original which is compared to pershing missile.

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## The Deterrent

*Hatf-6 Shaheen-2 MRBM (April 2006)*






_(A quite clear and rare photo)_

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## Sinnerman108

alimobin memon said:


> *It does have scramjet engine according to Islamabad American embassy official revealed it on news which was also show in American news paper . it has powerful engine that the ramjet that was mentioned too and that should be scramjet.*And That is the question we haven't even integrated ramjet and foremost it requires intake. However the speed has dramatically increased and it should be mach 10-10.5 since it is update to shaheen one original which is compared to pershing missile.



No sir,
you are not correct. What you are saying goes against the definition of a ballistic missle.

Turbo Fan, Ram Jet, Scram Jet or whatever XYZ jet is based on sucking in air, compressing, exploding the fuel mixture and making use of expansion and heat.

Ballistic missiles do not work on this principle.

ATMOST the rocket motor may use a "turbo charger" to force feed fuel in the ignition compartment. However this is only possible in liquid fuel missiles and only the Soviets had any success with it with their space program.

The Americans dropped that technique saying it was too dangerous.

Not sure if Americans adopted the system eventually.

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## A1Kaid

Does Pakistan have any type of bunker buster missiles? If not Pakistan should develop them at least in small amount, they are very crucial for hitting underground targets such as bunkers, silos, storage areas, reinforced thick concrete structures, etc.


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## The Deterrent

A1Kaid said:


> Does Pakistan have any type of bunker buster missiles? If not Pakistan should develop them at least in small amount, they are very crucial for hitting underground targets such as bunkers, silos, storage areas, reinforced thick concrete structures, etc.



None as of now. 
However Babur GLCM has the potential of being developed with a shaped-charge bunker-busting warhead. Similar warheads for SRBMs can also be developed.

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## Sinnerman108

A1Kaid said:


> Does Pakistan have any type of bunker buster missiles? If not Pakistan should develop them at least in small amount, they are very crucial for hitting underground targets such as bunkers, silos, storage areas, reinforced thick concrete structures, etc.



There is no such thing as a bunker buster missile.
It's the bomb / warhead which may be designed to penetrate concrete.

PAF is well capable of leveling runways.

Pakistan's defense doctrine is based on holding out against aggression for as long as possible and defend the land.
This view is shared by Army && Airforce alike.
Thus they are not interested in going in enemy territory and poking around with some one's concrete bunkers.


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## A1Kaid

salman108 said:


> There is no such thing as a bunker buster missile.
> It's the bomb / warhead which may be designed to penetrate concrete.
> 
> PAF is well capable of leveling runways.
> 
> Pakistan's defense doctrine is based on holding out against aggression for as long as possible and defend the land.
> This view is shared by Army && Airforce alike.
> Thus they are not interested in going in enemy territory and poking around with some one's concrete bunkers.



Yes there are bunker buster missiles, these are missiles which can penetrate deep underground and then explode for maximum damage. The point is you never know when they may be needed so Army should at least have several on hand for future operations.


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## Sinnerman108

A1Kaid said:


> Yes there are bunker buster missiles, these are missiles which can penetrate deep underground and then explode for maximum damage. The point is you never know when they may be needed so Army should at least have several on hand for future operations.



That is a warhead characteristic not missile.

A missile's job is to take warhead from point A to point B.


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## Manticore

> The Nasr
> Soon after the Nasr test, Rodney Jones, the noted US expert, made a
> comprehensive analysis about its implications. The ISPR Press release and Jones&#8216;
> assessment have been compared below. Rodney Jones wrote:
> Pakistan has either developed or acquired nuclear warheads small
> enough to fit inside [a thin 300-mm diameter missile] and possibly
> of relatively low-yield [warhead]&#8230; Pakistan probably produced
> significant quantities of weapons-grade plutonium only after the
> May 1998 tests and has not test-detonated any weapons systems
> 
> since then. Hence, the Army would be averse to using untested*
> weapons&#8230;Making a plutonium-based implosion device for a 300*
> mm diameter missile would be a real feat.
> (8)
> The above assessment is circumspect about Pakistan's capability to*
> miniaturise the warheads and might imply that the weapon system could be a bluff*
> and the army would resist its induction at the operational level. These aspects have*
> been addressed in the following paragraphs. The ISPR&#8216;s partly ambiguous press*
> release on the Nasr test
> (9) offers various points of analysis. It reads:
> Pakistan today successfully conducted the 1
> st
> flight test of the newly*
> developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile*
> Hatf-IX (NASR). The missile has been developed to add deterrence value*
> to Pakistan&#8216;s Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter*
> ranges. NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of*
> appropriate yield with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. This*
> quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats.
> The test was witnessed by [DG SPD], Lieutenant General (Retired)*
> Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman National Engineering and Science*
> Commission (NESCOM) Mr Irfan Burney, senior officers from the*
> strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organisations.
> On this occasion, the [DG SPD], Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid*
> Ahmed Kidwai said that the test was a very important milestone in*
> consolidating Pakistan&#8216;s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of*
> threat spectrum. He said in the hierarchy of military operations, the NASR*
> weapon system now provides Pakistan with short-range missile capability*
> in addition to the medium and long-range ballistic missiles and cruise*
> missiles in its inventory
> 
> 
> The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and
> Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and
> engineers on their outstanding success.
> (10)
> If the available information on Nasr is analysed in the backdrop of
> Pakistan&#8216;s cold and hot tests of nuclear weapons in March 1983 and in May 1998,
> seven important inferences can be made.
> One, the extent of missile&#8216;s accuracy cannot be ascertained since the
> circular-error-probable has not been publicised and the statement only identifies
> that the missile is &#8213;highly accurate.&#8214; This ambiguity looks pronounced once
> compared to similar information about Prahaar. There is also no information about
> what kind of navigation system has been used in Nasr. If Nasr can carry a nuclear
> warhead of &#8213;appropriate yield,&#8214;
> (11)
> accuracy becomes a secondary issue. The
> explosive and destructive power of nuclear weapons would compensate for
> accuracy. Use of the word &#8213;appropriate&#8214; in the press statement appears deliberate.
> The yield can also indicate the type of device tested, i.e. plutonium- or uraniumbased, or a device that is a combination of the two, with added tritium. The
> information available immediately after Pakistan&#8216;s 28 May 1998 tests gave a
> combined yield of devices at 40 kilotons only.
> (12) Likewise, the device tested on 30
> May 1998 was of 12 kilotons yield, which indicates that it would have been a
> boosted fission device that used a mix of uranium, plutonium and tritium.
> Two, emphasis that it was the &#8213;first flight test,&#8214;
> (13)
> indicates the desirability
> of more tests to further improve accuracy and validate other design parameters.
> While Nasr&#8216;s flight parameters can be improved, the yield and other technical
> parameters of the nuclear warhead can only be effectively validated through hot
> testing.
> Three, out of the six tests on 28 and 30 May 1998, four were reported to
> be of sub-kiloton yield.
> (14) This shows that Pakistan had kept its options of making
> all genres of nuclear weapons &#8211; including the low-yield warheads &#8211; open. That said, the desirability of hot-testing of warheads and missiles should not be ruled
> out. While Pakistan continues to flight-test its missiles, it remains to be seen how
> it would develop appropriate and reliable warheads for each delivery system
> without further testing. It may be recalled that even after conducting 1032 tests
> and having developed other means to test reliability of warheads, the US is still
> reluctant to ratify the Comprehensive Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT), as it may need
> more testing.
> (15)
> Four, notwithstanding the sceptical view that Pakistan could not achieve
> technological mastery of miniaturising the warheads to fit a short-range ballistic
> missile, there are indicators that it had cold-tested(16)
> and then hot-tested such
> state-of-the-art warheads by 1998.
> (17) Almost 14 years on, it might be safe to
> assume that Pakistan would have developed highly sophisticated plutonium-based
> warhead designs to suit [short-range ballistic missiles].
> Five, the above arguments lead to the issue of employment, as to when, if
> at all, and which land forces would induct Nasr. As Rodney Jones alluded to the
> fact in the above-cited article, the militaries are usually cautious about inducting
> weapons without proven reliability. Hence, if they forego hot tests to validate the
> reliability of low-yield warheads for Nasr, the land forces would opt for a series
> of flight tests in all probability. Nasr would most likely become Pakistan Army&#8216;s
> Strategic Force Command (ASFC) asset. As indicated in the press statement, only
> the senior members of the &#8213;strategic forces&#8214;
> (18) were present to witness the flight
> test. An implication of Nasr going to ASFC could be that Pakistan would exercise
> assertive control over short-range ballistic missiles and would preclude the
> likelihood of pre-delegation. Though, assertive control would be a factor of
> stability, it would create the attendant &#8215;use them or lose them&#8216; dilemma that
> Pakistan will have to delicately balance by further augmenting the delivery
> system survivability
> 
> Six, since Nasr is mounted atop the AR1A/A100-E Multiple-Launch
> Rocket System (MLRS), it was presumed to be of 300-mm (11.8-inch)
> diameter.
> (19) The MLRS is a two-round system believed to be carried atop
> Chinese-origin 8x8 high-mobility truck chassis. Its shoot and scoot attributes
> mean that the launchers can quickly fire (shoot) and change location (scoot) to
> avoid counter-targeting.
> (20) Rodney Jones thinks:
> This system is probably a four-tube
> (21)
> adaptation of a Chinese-design
> [MLRS], possibly the A-100 type, on an eight-wheeler truck, capable of
> carrying four, ready-to-fire 20-foot ballistic missiles of about 300 mm
> (11.8-inch) diameter&#8230;The truck-launcher otherwise may be a Chinese
> knock-off of the Russian 300 mm Smerch [MLRS] sold to India.
> (22)
> Seven, stretching the idea of miniaturising further, some analysts have
> contemplated that Pakistan could now forge ahead to make multiple
> independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) for ballistic missiles, make
> submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) or re-model these to fit the
> torpedo bays of existing submarines and improve the cruise missiles designs.


http://www.irs.org.pk/strategic/spso12.pdf
SRBMs, DETERRENCE AND REGIONAL
STABILITY IN SOUTH ASIA: A CASE
STUDY OF NASR AND PRAHAAR
ZAHIR KAZMI

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## Safriz

These are screen shots from May 29 / 2012 Nasr missile test video.
Only two Nasr were loaded on the TEL and note the different shapes of Nose cone..

This is a closeup of one of the Warhead assembly..Note the Circular areas at the root of the Fins...Looks like all four Fins are movable.





In this Picture..Note the difference in shapes of the Warhead assembly..One is Globular and another a lot more conical.




@AhaseebA .. any comments on this ?

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## Safriz

Some observations on Nasr missile. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...es-two-hatf-ix-nasr-brbms-22.html#post3915818


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## Safriz

Post boost rocket motors?

If it is what it seems to be then the warhead assembly is able to manoever post boost in exo atmosphere via these sideways rocket motors,and can correct course before deployment of Warhead,increasing accuracy.
This feature can also be used as counter ABM measure as warhead trajectory can be changed away from predicted trajectory...
This can also be seen as an important step towards MIRV..

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> These are screen shots from May 29 / 2012 Nasr missile test video.
> Only two Nasr were loaded on the TEL and note the different shapes of Nose cone..
> 
> This is a closeup of one of the Warhead assembly..Note the Circular areas at the root of the Fins...Looks like all four Fins are movable.
> 
> In this Picture..Note the difference in shapes of the Warhead assembly..One is Globular and another a lot more conical.
> 
> @AhaseebA .. any comments on this ?



Two were loaded but one was fired, indicating that the other was loaded as a static system to test the effects of excessive shocks and vibrations received by any other missiles that would be present in the vehicle during a launch.
Yes, all fins are movable. The difference in warhead assemblies is because of just the paint scheme IMO. I think the right one is the missile which was fired.


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Post boost rocket motors?
> 
> If it is what it seems to be then the warhead assembly is able to manoever post boost in exo atmosphere via these sideways rocket motors,and can correct course before deployment of Warhead,increasing accuracy.
> This feature can also be used as counter ABM measure as warhead trajectory can be changed away from predicted trajectory...
> This can also be seen as an important step towards MIRV..



Not exactly...
These are communication antennas as far as I think. 
The terminal correction system has thrusters which correct the trajectory after the boost phase and tilt the warhead at the impact angle. Later on another set of thrusters on the warhead spins it for a stable re-entry.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> Not exactly...
> These are communication antennas as far as I think.
> The terminal correction system has thrusters which correct the trajectory after the boost phase and tilt the warhead at the impact angle. Later on another set of thrusters on the warhead spins it for a stable re-entry.




why would a Ballistic missile need such large communication antennas?


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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> why would a Ballistic missile need such large communication antennas?



I'm not sure, but a defence analyst RD Fisher stated that about his visit to IDEAS 2008. They could be even star-locating systems for stellar guidance or antennas for receiving ground signals for post-boost guidance.


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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> I'm not sure, but a defence analyst RD Fisher stated that about his visit to IDEAS 2008. They could be even star-locating systems for stellar guidance or antennas for receiving ground signals for post-boost guidance.


 @AhaseebA @Windjammer..

Do you have any pics of Shaheen 1A? 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes the *speculation* has been made by some American defence experts about Shaheen series missiles that the missile has some sort of Radar scene matching capability..and mid-flight course changing capability.


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## Safriz

Ok..some help needed here..i am confused..
Are there two different versions of Shaheen 2? One has fins on second stage..other doesn't

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> @AhaseebA @Windjammer..
> 
> Do you have any pics of Shaheen 1A?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Yes the *speculation* has been made by some American defence experts about Shaheen series missiles that the missile has some sort of Radar scene matching capability..and mid-flight course changing capability.








Radar scene matching is a totally different and advanced guiding mechanism. We do not have any kind of capability in this field.



Safriz said:


> Ok..some help needed here..i am confused..
> Are there two different versions of Shaheen 2? On has fins on second stage..other doesn't



None of the missiles launched in the flight tests had any sort of fins on the second stage. Apparently, these missiles (just 2 I guess) were dummy ones made for parade stuff and exhibition at IDEAS. You know the carelessness found in our Pakistani setup, must've been a mistake.

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## Safriz

Any comments on this feature of Ghaznavi? Is this a drag resistant aerospike?

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Any comments on this feature of Ghaznavi? Is this a drag resistant aerospike?



Yeah it is. Actually I have covered this feature a while ago, in some random threads...here it is again..



AhaseebA said:


> *Hatf-3 Ghaznavi SRBM (Range 290 km,Warhead Payload 500 kg [Total 600 kg])*
> 
> 
> *Development History :*
> Pakistan Army had a wide gap of local missile capabilities,with Hatf-1 having 100 km range and Shaheen-I having 700 km range,because Hatf-2 and 3 were cancelled.Therefore,around 1997-8,NDC (NESCOM) started the development of the Ghaznavi missile,with Abdali being developed in parallel by SUPARCO.The system was first tested in May,2002.
> 
> *Origins :*
> In early 1990s,China provided Pakistan with 30-40 M-11 (DF-11) SRBMs,to help it strengthen its Armed forces.These missiles had a range of ~300 km,with a payload of 500 kg and a CEP of 500-600 m.
> 
> In appearance and capabilities,Ghaznavi remarkably resembles M-11.In the 1990s,Pakistan also procured critical equipment and machinery for developing missiles locally.Initially,it was decided to mass-produce the M-11s with similar capabilities.Later on,it was decided to make an advanced version of M-11,equipped with modern technologies.
> 
> *Chinese DF-11A (CSS-7 Mod 2),an advanced version of DF-11/M-11*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistani Hatf-3 Ghaznavi (IDEAS,2008)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What Pakistan did :*
> The local version,tested as late as 2002,had a better solid-fueled motor downgraded from Shaheen-1.*Pakistan moved ahead of China,and inducted the aero-spike in the design,which enhanced the performance of the missile in dense atmosphere,enabling it to follow a depressed ballistic trajectory.Later on,China also inducted the aero-spike,in later versions of CSS-7 Mod 2 (DF-11A).*Yet another major modification was made,and a locally developed advanced INS was installed,giving the missile a CEP of <50m (As stated by Chairman NESCOM) by aiding the warhead vehicle with a precise Post-separation Attitude Correction System.
> 
> *Pakistani Hatf-3 Ghaznavi (Azm-e-Nau 3 exercise,2010)*

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## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> Yeah it is. Actually I have covered this feature a while ago, in some random threads...here it is again..



Very good..I never came across these writings of yours....
What you say of the Fins on Ghaznavi?
Dont seem to be moveable, although movable fins at such high speeds inside atmosphere may be a technical challenge..So the guess is that the missile manoeuvres/corrects course by using an internal mechanism,may be a gimball mounted shift of weights technique.. While the fins act as Lift generating surfaces.

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## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Very good..I never came across these writings of yours....
> What you say of the Fins on Ghaznavi?
> Dont seem to be moveable, although movable fins at such high speeds inside atmosphere may be a technical challenge..So the guess is that the missile manoeuvres/corrects course by using an internal mechanism,may be a gimball mounted shift of weights technique.. While the fins act as Lift generating surfaces.



Thanks 

Yes exactly, they provide the necessary lift. No the course is corrected again by small internal thrusters.
IMO in the case of Ghaznavi, the warhead is not spun up before re-entry. Instead the fins stabilize the missile.


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## Safriz

Abdali and shaheen 2 have more than one versions...


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## kurup

AhaseebA said:


> Sir kindly edit your post, these photos are not visible...



Just missing a ] after [/IMG .


-- nasr
























feb2013










may 2012


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## kurup

continued........








april 2011

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## bilawalkhan

is there any one line answer, that we can compare our self to India or not in missile technology ?


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## Kompromat

bilawalkhan said:


> is there any one line answer, that we can compare our self to India or not in missile technology ?



Yes, we can destroy India into ashes, India can destroy us into ashes, there are lunatics on both sides who want to do it. For us peaceloving citizens of S.Asia, we should oppose any conflict in our region, we must now allow our part of the world to become a proxy battlefield for world powers. India and Pakistan need to compete, need to go to war but that war has to be the one of economics, competition in marketplace,education and human development.

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## bilawalkhan

Aeronaut said:


> Yes, we can destroy India into ashes, India can destroy us into ashes, there are lunatics on both sides who want to do it. For us peaceloving citizens of S.Asia, we should oppose any conflict in our region, we must now allow our part of the world to become a proxy battlefield for world powers. India and Pakistan need to compete, need to go to war but that war has to be the one of economics, competition in marketplace,education and human development.



dear one, may be i am also a peace loving or in other words a non-violent person, but can the other party(India) also come on to these grounds i.e Education, human development. but if they are making the things which are threatening our existence, how a sane person will react..


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## BoOr

Very good article thank you.


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## Safriz

Here we can see the triangular silver plates attached to the inner side of fins..These are the vanes for directing thrust for manoevering the missile.


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## Safriz

Expansion deflection nozzle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looking at the short bell shaped bottom of shaheen-1 and 1A.
It can be speculated that the increase in range was more related to tweaking of the rocket exaust..
If altitude compensation can be incorporated in the rocket exaust nozzle,better effeciency and better range can be acheived.
A piston moning downwards as the rocket climbs in altitude,keeps exaust plume in shape,giving better thrust.

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## al_asad_al_mulk

Hey guys its my first or second post i hope it will provide you ppl info about Pakistan's current and under development missiles first of all i start with Hatf 1
Hatf-1
Range: 60 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
Unguided
HE only
Status: Not in production
Hatf-1A
Range: 80 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
INS guided
HE only
Hatf-1B
Range: 80 to 120 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
INS guided
HE/NE
Deployed and in production

Hatf-2 (Shadoze)
Range: 120 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
2 Stage Unguided
Cancelled
Hatf-2 (Abdali)
Range: 180 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
Single Stage 
INS Guided
HE only
Not in production
Hatf-2 (Abdali-1)
Range: 180 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
Single Stage 
INS Guided
HE/NE 
CEP: 10 to 15
Deployed & in production
Cont.....


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Cont...
Hatf-3
M11
290 to 320 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
INS Guided
HE Only (Storage)
Hatf-3
Ghaznavi 320 Kms
Payload: 500 Kgs
INS Guided Improved Version with Pakistan Navigation Sytems
HE/NE RF Thermobaric Cluster Only
CEP: 0.1
Deployed & in production
Cont...


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Cont...
Hatf-4
Shaheen
Range: 700 Kms
Payload: 1000 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal
HE/NE
Deployed (Production Stoped)
Shaheen-1
Range: 700 Kms (Now Increase 900 Kms)
Payload: 750 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal (Seprating Warhead)
Deployed (Deployed & in Production)
Shaheen-1A
Range: 1500 KMS
Payload: 1000 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal (Seprating Warhead)
Deployed (Under Development tested)
MIRV testing Phase (3 NE OR 5 HE)
Note: Entirely new missile with power full engine decrease trajectory new system to avoid ABM
CEP: 0.1
Cont....


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Cont...
Hatf-6
Shaheen-2
2000 to 2500 Kms (Acctual Range classified may be 3000 + Kms not announce due to ploitical reasons)
Payload: 1050 Kgs to 1200 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal (Seprating Warhead)
Single HE/NE warhead
Deployed (Stop production Since 2008/9)
CEP: 25 to 30
Shaheen-2A
3000 to 3500 Kms (Improve engine & Fuel)
Payload: 1200 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal (Seprating Warhead)
Single or MIRV HE/NE warhead (3 NE or 5 HE)
Developed (Not Tested Plolitical Reasons)
CEP: 25 to 30
Cont....

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## al_asad_al_mulk

Cont...
Shaheen-3 Or Tipu Or Haider
4000 + Kms
Payload: 1500 Kgs
Guidence: INS & Terminal
Single or MIRV HE/NE
Ready for Tests (Not Tested Plolitical Reasons / project rollback by Musharaf along with Ghauri -3 even work on SLV stopped by him cazz slv can be modified as IRBM or ICBM he dont want to destroy Israel or make US/Israel angery)
No other long range missile under development
Shaheen-3 & Ghauri-3 engine/ground tests successful
According to sources pakistan in agreemnet with USA not to make any missile with range more then 2000 Kms and according to my sources its confirmed
thats all ...

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## 2ndslip

LOL at that Indian pretending to be a Pakistani. No Pakistani would ever utter such BS as he did. As for the missiles, what is the latest development news?

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## bigest

To be honest,not strength enough.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

bigest said:


> To be honest,not strength enough.



To be honest... sh!tty economy.

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## bigest

practical reason

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## Bratva

I always wonder, why pakistani missiles are bulky? compare to Indian or chinese or russian ballistic missiles, even their 5000 Km missiles are slim


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## ssethii




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## indiatester

mafiya said:


> I always wonder, why pakistani missiles are bulky? compare to Indian or chinese or russian ballistic missiles, even their 5000 Km missiles are slim



Use of composites?


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> I always wonder, why pakistani missiles are bulky? compare to Indian or chinese or russian ballistic missiles, even their 5000 Km missiles are slim



fat missiles are cheaper and cost effective...
better fuel...stronger but lighter special alloys or carbon fiber will reduce missile size but increase cost...
Money is something Pakistan doesn't have.....

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## k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$

Safriz said:


> fat missiles are cheaper and cost effective...
> better fuel...stronger but lighter special alloys or carbon fiber will reduce missile size but increase cost...
> Money is something Pakistan doesn't have.....



Impressive answer


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## fatman17

Table 1. Pakistani missiles

Name&#8230;. Designation&#8230; Type&#8230; Propellant&#8230; Range (km)&#8230;Payload(kg)&#8230;Accuracy(m)&#8230;In service&#8230;date&#8230; No.

Nasr&#8230;&#8230;..... Hatf-9&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. SS&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Solid&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. 60 . . . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. (2014)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
Ra&#8217;ad&#8230;...... Hatf-8&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. ALCM..Solid/turbojet&#8230;....350 . . . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. (2013)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.
Babur&#8230;...... Hatf-7&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; GLCM..Solid/turbojet&#8230;.500&#8211;700&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. 300 . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.... (2012) . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.
Shaheen II.. Hatf-6&#8230;.. Two-stage Solid Initially. 2000-2500&#8230;&#8230;..700&#8211;1000&#8230;. 350&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;....... (~2010) . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
Ghauri II..... Hatf-5&#8230;&#8230;.. SinglestageLiquid&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. 1800&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 700&#8211;1000&#8230;.. 2500&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..... 2003&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. 25&#8211;50
Ghauri I[= Nodong/DPRK]..Hatf-5..Singlestage Liquid.. 1300&#8230;.... 700&#8211;1000&#8230;.. 2500&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..... 2003&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 25&#8211;50
Shaheen I[= M-9/China]..Hatf-4 Singlestage Solid..700&#8211;750&#8230;.....700&#8211;1000&#8230;.. (200)(90 if terminal guidance)
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...........2003&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 50
Ghaznavi[= M-11/China]..Hatf-3 Singlestage Solid.. 350&#8211;400&#8230;....500&#8211;700&#8230;&#8230; (250)(50 if terminal guidance)
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.........2004&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 50
Abdali.. Hatf-2.. Singlestage Solid&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. 180&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;... 250&#8211;450&#8230;&#8230;(150)(30 if terminal guidance)
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.........(2012) . .
Hatf-1A/1B&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Singlestage Solid&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. 100&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;......... 500 . . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;1995/2004..100
Hatf-1&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Singlestage Solid&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. 80&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;....... 500 . &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 1992&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. 100

= not available or not applicable; ( ) = uncertain figure.
a This missile may also be air and sea-launched.
b A longer range (4000&#8211;4500 km) Shaheen III may also be in development.
Sources: Official Pakistani data (various sources); Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), SIPRI Yearbook 2011:
Armaments, Disarmament and International Security (Oxford University Press: Oxford, 2011); International Institute for Strategic
Studies (IISS), The Military Balance 2012 (IISS: London, 2012); Jane&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Systems, <http://jsws.janes.com/public/
jsws/index.shtml>; and &#8216;Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear forces, 2011&#8217;, Nuclear Notebook, Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, July/Aug. 2011.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Hi fellow Pakistanis

Happy Ramadan

Just wanted to confirm my info, I've got a question for you, if I may. 

How many indigenous missile has Pakistan developed over the years? 

Thanks

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## SQ8

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Hi fellow Pakistanis
> 
> Happy Ramadan
> 
> Just wanted to confirm my info, I've got a question for you, if I may.
> 
> How many indigenous missile has Pakistan developed over the years?
> 
> Thanks


If by indigenous you refer to the process of developing the missile, the guidance and other associated systems.
Then.

The Shaheen series.. 

Babur, Ra'ad and one or two other systems.

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## TaimiKhan

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Hi fellow Pakistanis
> 
> Happy Ramadan
> 
> Just wanted to confirm my info, I've got a question for you, if I may.
> 
> How many indigenous missile has Pakistan developed over the years?
> 
> Thanks



Will give you a good idea of what has been made local and what has been brought from abroad and how they were modified to make better missiles. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-missiles-indigenous-content-development.html

and add to these ballistics missiles the ALCM (Ra'ad) & CM (babur), plus the last of them all the Nasr missile. 

Pakistani missile research and development program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Yzd Khalifa

Oscar said:


> If by indigenous you refer to the process of developing the missile, the guidance and other associated systems.
> Then.
> 
> The Shaheen series..
> 
> Babur, Ra'ad and one or two other systems.



Thanks a bunch Oscar, happy Ramdan to you.



TaimiKhan said:


> Will give you a good idea of what has been made local and what has been brought from abroad and how they were modified to make better missiles.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-missiles-indigenous-content-development.html
> 
> and add to these ballistics missiles the ALCM (Ra'ad) & CM (babur), plus the last of them all the Nasr missile.
> 
> Pakistani missile research and development program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Happy Ramadan to you as well. God bless

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## Bamboo Castle

Did Pakistan develop any SAM system on their own?


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## jamesseo89

Will A.Q Khan be released soon to work freely at KRL and if yes then will he open new facilities like in KPK, Balochistan, Sindh and Gilgit Baldistan.


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## The Deterrent

Bamboo Castle said:


> Did Pakistan develop any SAM system on their own?



No.



jamesseo89 said:


> Will A.Q Khan be released soon to work freely at KRL and if yes then will he open new facilities like in KPK, Balochistan, Sindh and Gilgit Baldistan.



No he won't be. None of the above will happen.


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## jamesseo89

So KRL looking to launch their Ghauri III???


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## The Deterrent

jamesseo89 said:


> So KRL looking to launch their Ghauri III???



No, development on Ghauri-III was terminated by President Musharraf.

It is suggested that you read the already present informative threads before asking these basic questions.


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## 99s99

if you don't destroy india first they will destroy themselves.

america is your #1 enemy:if america refuses to destroy itself you know what you have to do

china is your friend


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## Dazzler

Both NESCOM, NDC are working on some "very interesting" projects...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Both NESCOM, NDC are working on some "very interesting" projects...



Sir jee ghareeboun kou hint he dey dein? app ki mehrbani hogi... "fidwi" dua dey ga!

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sir jee ghareeboun kou hint he dey dein? app ki mehrbani hogi... "fidwi" dua dey ga!



no hints sabr karna seekho

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## PWFI

Dazzler said:


> Both NESCOM, NDC are working on some "very interesting" projects...



Sir please tell us what kind of projects, just a hint as a "sadka jariat" in this month of ramdan kareem :p



wasm95 said:


> no hints sabr karna seekho



Stop it yaar, join me and desert fighter or i will take back my thanks

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## Dazzler

PWFI said:


> Sir please tell us what kind of projects, just a hint as a "sadka jariat" in this month of ramdan kareem :p
> 
> 
> 
> Stop it yaar, join me and desert fighter or i will take back my thanks



not everything is shareable, just be happy they are working hard to defend the land

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## Jango

Dazzler said:


> not everything is shareable, just be happy they are working hard to defend the land



Does that thing include landing in CHina?

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## Dr. Strangelove

^^^^ 
kyoon waqt zaya kre rahey ho us ne kuch nahi batana


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> not everything is shareable, just be happy they are working hard to defend the land



Hawai fire, keeping others in fantasyland, That's what insider news are mostly. I presume you were the one who said, NESCOM working on long range SAM. 

So what's next Pakistan working on ABM jajajajaja

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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Hawai fire, keeping others in fantasyland, That's what insider news are mostly. I presume you were the one who said, NESCOM working on long range SAM.
> 
> So what's next Pakistan working on ABM jajajajaja


Here's the problem with all these news. Many of them are just plain to see, as for the others; they just exist as pilot projects much like thar coal.

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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> Hawai fire, keeping others in fantasyland, That's what insider news are mostly. I presume you were the one who said, NESCOM working on long range SAM.
> 
> So what's next Pakistan working on ABM jajajajaja



Whatever makes you happy 

i stand by my statement, they are working on a SAM

Pakistan (NDC) and Turkey are also working on an undisclosed project. My source is in Turkey these days

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## Dr. Strangelove

@AhaseebA 
does pakistan have the ability to develope SAMS


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Whatever makes you happy
> 
> i stand by my statement, they are working on a SAM
> 
> Pakistan (NDC) and Turkey are also working on an undisclosed project. My source is in Turkey these days



Atleast tell us about the timeframe... for the SAMs.

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> Whatever makes you happy
> 
> i stand by my statement, they are working on a SAM
> 
> Pakistan (NDC) and Turkey are also working on an undisclosed project. My source is in Turkey these days



Which will never see the light of day, why because of funding cuts and crunches. So we are back to square one, @Oscar said it right, these are just pilot projects, they would not materialize, so it's not a thing for happiness but being realistic. But some people like to remain in fantasy land and want to drag others in it too

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## The Deterrent

wasm95 said:


> @AhaseebA
> does pakistan have the ability to develope SAMS



I cannot speculate much on that. Provided the correct amount of resources, we can achieve the capability.
It might be a research project, but I do not have any information on a system like that.



mafiya said:


> Which will never see the light of day, why because of funding cuts and crunches. So we are back to square one, @Oscar said it right, these are just pilot projects, they would not materialize, so it's not a thing for happiness but being realistic. But some people like to remain in fantasy land and want to drag others in it too



Come on, don't be so bitter...ups and downs are everywhere (specially downs these days in Pakistan). We need to focus on the economy first, only then we will be able to pool resources into new projects.

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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> But some people like to remain in fantasy land and want to drag others in it too



I suggest you better watch out next time before passing such comments !

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> *I suggest you better watch out next time* before passing such comments !


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## Jango

shuntmaster said:


> Good one. If an Indian made that statement, it would be called trolling.
> When was the last time that Pakistan tested a new improved range missile? I think Shaheen-II and Ra'ad were tested around 2000-2002 time frame. Only old missiles have been retested occasionally.



When you don't know anything, just keep quiet.

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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Which will never see the light of day, why because of funding cuts and crunches. So we are back to square one, @Oscar said it right, these are just pilot projects, they would not materialize, so it's not a thing for happiness but being realistic. But some people like to remain in fantasy land and want to drag others in it too



The point being, what people forget.. is that F-16's and Erieye's arent the only thing that cost you money. Everything from the centrifuges at Kahuta to the Steel fins of the Shaheen cost money to manufacture. They dont make it out of "_Mohib-e-Watani_" alone. So while there are excellent projects and lots of brilliant ideas that are very feasible and do-able...most of them dont see the light of day because of limited funds(_and because some col or scientists son decides that a useless signal monitor machine needs to be sanctioned because it is needed and because their own procurement firm will be the one getting the contract.. Sab golmaal hai_)

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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> The point being, what people forget.. is that F-16's and Erieye's arent the only thing that cost you money. Everything from the centrifuges at Kahuta to the Steel fins of the Shaheen cost money to manufacture. They dont make it out of "_Mohib-e-Watani_" alone. So while there are excellent projects and lots of brilliant ideas that are very feasible and do-able...most of them dont see the light of day because of limited funds(_and because some col or scientists son decides that a useless signal monitor machine needs to be sanctioned because it is needed and because their own procurement firm will be the one getting the contract.. Sab golmaal hai_)


 @Oscar you know just as well as I do that there are pilot projects on just about everything in Pakistan in various agencies and offices, that rival any plans in Brazil or China or any other up and coming countries. Except we are on our way down and the gap between these planned projects and realizing them is only increasing.


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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Oscar you know just as well as I do that there are pilot projects on just about everything in Pakistan in various agencies and offices, that rival any plans in Brazil or China or any other up and coming countries. Except we are on our way down and the gap between these planned projects and realizing them is only increasing.



And it will continue to increase so long as the inept hold power.. and not just in the political or national arena.. but EVERYWHERE.

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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> And it will continue to increase so long as the inept hold power.. and not just in the political or national arena.. but EVERYWHERE.



What we all need to realize is we are progressing and moving forward. Yes that is true. But. Everyone else is running ahead at a far quicker pace. So we are getting better, but further and further behind others at the same time. That is the thing to keep in mind.

The next five years are not going to be decreasing this gap, that is for sure.


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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> What we all need to realize is we are progressing and moving forward. Yes that is true. But. Everyone else is running ahead at a far quicker pace. So we are getting better, but further and further behind others at the same time. That is the thing to keep in mind.
> 
> The next five years are not going to be decreasing this gap, that is for sure.



Hussain Haqqani was right about that. It will be after this PML(N) govt that people realize the actual importance of change.. and it may not even come through PTI but another party but these five years will be little different(perhaps worse) than the past five.


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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> Hussain Haqqani was right about that. It will be after this PML(N) govt that people realize the actual importance of change.. and it may not even come through PTI but another party but these five years will be little different(perhaps worse) than the past five.



Yes, if we have another five years. That is not a certainty at this point in time.


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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> Yes, if we have another five years. That is not a certainty at this point in time.



Nah, I wouldn't worry too much. This nation and this state are to be listed under the definition of "Dheet" in the ferozesons dictionary.

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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> Nah, I wouldn't worry too much. This nation and this state are to be listed under the definition of "Dheet" in the ferozesons dictionary.



So please remind me again what happened to the Feroze Sons showroom on Mall Road?


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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> So please remind me again what happened to the Feroze Sons showroom on Mall Road?



There's still stores all over.. they've gone into DHA as well. 
Ferozesons wont die yet..

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## Ammyy

PWFI said:


> Nope when i realize that i am talking to 10 year old keyboard hindu warrior.
> First of all, it's your own media discrediting your missiles, and saying Pakistan has better missiles than Bharat.
> Talking about our insecurity: as for as we have shaheen II type missiles who can hit your ar$$ anywhere, we don't give a sh!t to ICBM.
> 
> So now lets talk about insecurity of you people , starting from ISI pigeons to ISI camel agents, you guys are the world champion of stupidity for eternity, their is a reason why we call you Bharitis



 Pakistan only dream to built technology that India have.

Only some example AAD,PAD, Sourya, K15, Astra.... hey kid go home

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## Shadow_Hunter

PWFI said:


> Nope when i realize that i am talking to 10 year old keyboard hindu warrior.



You moving to use derogatory language itself tells me how big a loser u are. Got bullied in school a lot didn't u?



> First of all, it's your own media discrediting your missiles, and saying Pakistan has better missiles than Bharat.


Were you able to find to find anything more recent, or are we stuck with 3 year old videos? Btw the third video was actually building upto our missile. A pity you couldn't comprehend that.



> Talking about our insecurity: as for as we have shaheen II type missiles who can hit your ar$$ anywhere, we don't give a sh!t to ICBM.


Then why did you compatriots feel the need to start a thread with a fake news saying pakistan has 9000 km range missiles, 1000 km above the believed range of Agni V, insecure much?



> So now lets talk about insecurity of you people , starting from ISI pigeons to ISI camel agents, you guys are the world champion of stupidity for eternity, their is a reason why we call you Bharitis


That is still a better alternative than stopping mobile services in the region due to fear of mobile detonated bombs.

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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> There's still stores all over.. they've gone into DHA as well.
> Ferozesons wont die yet..


 @Oscar, sir your analogy is apt. What you say above means that Pakistani diaspora will thrive in the richer parts of the world after the main store on Mall Road burns down. I can agree with that.


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## SarthakGanguly

Hey chill mate  Why indulge in personal attacks if you are sure your missiles are better?
Pakistan's Missile tech is India centric. While India 's is Pakistan and China centric. I don't design missiles. So can't give a final word.  As far as the media is concerned, they are not reliable because top missile techs of all countries(including India and Pakistan) are kept secret. So how much is fact and how much is cover up - we civilians can't know for sure. Right? 

Also there is another fallacy. You can't say the entire Pakistani Missile tech is superior. If you can specify which one is better than its Indian equivalent, we can then debate. 

For example - What is special about Shaheen II that puts all other Indian Missiles to shame?


PWFI said:


> Nope when i realize that i am talking to 10 year old keyboard hindu warrior.
> First of all, it's your own media discrediting your missiles, and saying Pakistan has better missiles than Bharat.
> Talking about our insecurity: as for as we have shaheen II type missiles who can hit your ar$$ anywhere, we don't give a sh!t to ICBM.
> 
> So now lets talk about insecurity of you people , starting from ISI pigeons to ISI camel agents, you guys are the world champion of stupidity for eternity, their is a reason why we call you Bharitis

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## Dr. Strangelove

*@SarthakGanguly @PWFI and others 
if u r so fond of comparing missiles move your discussion to a vs thread there are a lot of them *

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## Windjammer

LONDON: The worlds leading nuclear experts have revealed that Indian nuclear technology and capabilities are far behind than its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China.

Hans M Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists and Robert S Norris, Senior Research Associate Natural Resources Defence Council Inc, Washington, in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists revealed that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China, which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, Indias missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012.

The Bulletin notes, The Agni I and Agni II, despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service. The other missiles in the Agni series  the Agni III, IV and V  all remain under development. Indeed, the report notes that the bulk of the Indian ballistic missile force is comprised of three versions of Prithvi missiles, but only one of these versions, the armys Prithvi I, has a nuclear role. Considering that the lumbering Prithvi I requires hours to get ready for launch and has a range of just 150km, it indicates that the Indian nuclear weapons capability is short-legged indeed, the experts said.

Nevertheless, the Bulletin notes, the development of the Agni V has introduced a new dynamic into the already complex triangular security relationship between India, Pakistan and China.

Former Indian naval chief Admiral Arun Prakash has admitted that India is lagging in nuclear capabilities and said, We have to rely on the word of our DRDO/DAE scientists as far as performance, reliability, accuracy and yield of missiles and nuclear warheads are concerned. Unfortunately, hyperbolic claims coupled with dissonance within the ranks of our scientists have eroded their credibility.

As of now, the Bulletin says, we estimate that India has produced 80-100 nuclear warheads. In the case of Pakistan, whose evaluation was done in 2011, the Bulletin analysis has said that it has the worlds fastest-growing nuclear stockpile, estimating that Pakistan has 90-110 nuclear weapons. The Pakistani arsenal, too, consists of mainly aircraft-dropped bombs, but with its Chinese-supplied missiles, it has a deployed arsenal of missiles like the Ghaznavi, Shaheen I and Ghauri and is developing longer-range missiles. Significantly, Pakistans India-specific arsenal comprises of the Nasr short-range (70km) ballistic missile, which can use nuclear weapons to take out troop formations and Pakistan is in the advanced stage of developing two cruise missiles  the Babar and the Raad.

If this is dismaying for New Delhi, the comparison with China is positively alarming. Beijing has an arsenal of 240 or so warheads and it is adding to this number, though not at the pace Pakistan is. Its nuclear weapons are primarily delivered through a mature missile arsenal with ranges from 2,000-11,000km. A large number of Chinese missiles, including their cruise missiles, are primarily for use in non-nuclear conventional battle role. Raghavan acknowledges that China is a different kettle of fish, but he says even so, with the Agni V test, Indias progress has been commendable. But there are big differences between India and China in terms of technology and capability.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

@Oscar @Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @WebMaster @Zakki @nuclearpak @ANTIBODY ..... time to clean up the thread..

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## Windjammer

Ammyy said:


> Hey windi .... your article is really credible
> 
> 
> 
> After induction of Agni 1 & 2, Agni 3 already inducted back in 2010  And A4 need only one more test.
> 
> But still Pakistan shown nothing new in terms of missiles only testing old missiles again and again ( you know the reason),* now India move from ICBM to Submarine launch ballistic missiles. *
> 
> your country can only dream to built that.



"Empty vessels make most noise".....and you are an ample proof to the fact. !!

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## zainzain

thanks this is very good information for us


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## gslv mk3

Windjammer said:


> "Empty vessels make most noise".....and you are an ample proof to the fact. !!



come on dude,can you make a SLBM(already tested),a SAM system(already inducted) an ICBM(under testing) or a BMD(under testing)???


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## gslv mk3

Windjammer said:


> Hans M Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists and Robert S Norris, Senior Research Associate Natural Resources Defence Council Inc, Washington, in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists revealed that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar. Unlike Pakistan and China, which have substantial deployed missile arsenals, Indias missile force is lagging, despite the test-launch of the Agni V in 2012.
> 
> The Bulletin notes, The Agni I and Agni II, despite being declared operational, both have reliability issues that have delayed their full operational service. The other missiles in the Agni series  the Agni III, IV and V  all remain under development. Indeed, the report notes that the bulk of the Indian ballistic missile force is comprised of three versions of Prithvi missiles, but only one of these versions, the armys Prithvi I, has a nuclear role. Considering that the lumbering Prithvi I requires hours to get ready for launch and has a range of just 150km, it indicates that the Indian nuclear weapons capability is short-legged indeed, the experts said.
> 
> Nevertheless, the Bulletin notes, the development of the Agni V has introduced a new dynamic into the already complex triangular security relationship between India, Pakistan and China.
> 
> Former Indian naval chief Admiral Arun Prakash has admitted that India is lagging in nuclear capabilities and said, We have to rely on the word of our DRDO/DAE scientists as far as performance, reliability, accuracy and yield of missiles and nuclear warheads are concerned. Unfortunately, hyperbolic claims coupled with dissonance within the ranks of our scientists have eroded their credibility.
> 
> As of now, the Bulletin says, we estimate that India has produced 80-100 nuclear warheads. In the case of Pakistan, whose evaluation was done in 2011, the Bulletin analysis has said that it has the worlds fastest-growing nuclear stockpile, estimating that Pakistan has 90-110 nuclear weapons. The Pakistani arsenal, too, consists of mainly aircraft-dropped bombs, but with its Chinese-supplied missiles, it has a deployed arsenal of missiles like the Ghaznavi, Shaheen I and Ghauri and is developing longer-range missiles. Significantly, Pakistans India-specific arsenal comprises of the Nasr short-range (70km) ballistic missile, which can use nuclear weapons to take out troop formations and Pakistan is in the advanced stage of developing two cruise missiles  the Babar and the Raad.
> 
> If this is dismaying for New Delhi, the comparison with China is positively alarming. Beijing has an arsenal of 240 or so warheads and it is adding to this number, though not at the pace Pakistan is. Its nuclear weapons are primarily delivered through a mature missile arsenal with ranges from 2,000-11,000km. A large number of Chinese missiles, including their cruise missiles, are primarily for use in non-nuclear conventional battle role. Raghavan acknowledges that China is a different kettle of fish, but he says even so, with the Agni V test, Indias progress has been commendable. But there are big differences between India and China in terms of technology and capability.
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



 even Agni III is inducted,not to say about Canisterised Shaurya Quasi ballistic missile and Brahmos and we are also developing a BMD system(which had succesful tests for 7 years)

Now nuclear tech?Can you even design and build a commercial Nuclear reactor ??
We are pretty much advanced,we are considered *world leader in thorium technology,we have our own fast breeder designs* and world knows our advancement in Nuclear tech,thats why we were invited to (and we are a part of ) Intenational Thermonuclear Experimental project


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## fatman17

*Bluffer's Guide: Pakistani Nuclear Forces* 


This does not form an exhaustive or authoritative text on the subject and is politically unbiased.


Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear deterrent is primarily shouldered by Army Strategic Force Command (ASFC) although the Air Force (PAF) and Navy (PN) may develop nuclear capabilities in the near future. 

Hatf-1 Short Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM)
Range: 80km (110km Hatf-Ia), Payload: 500kg

The Hatf-1 (Deadly-1) is a battlefield rocket in a similar class to the Soviet FROG. It is allegedly developed from the French Eridan rocket. It was developed by Pakistan in the 1980s and was in service by 1990. The system may still be operational, but is unlikely to carry nuclear warheads. Unusually for a ballistic missile the launch rail, which elevates to about 70degrees for launch, is mounted on a recycled WWII anti-aircraft gun platform. 


Hatf-II (first version) Short Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM)
Range: 280km, Payload: 500kg

The original Hatf-II project was simply a two-stage Hatf-I. The range was claimed to be more than tripled. Although the system was paraded, the project appears to have been abandoned about the time Pakistan bought the more sophisticated M-11 type from China. A new &#8220;Hatf-II&#8221; missile is now entering service and although it fulfills the same role, it is quite distinct.


M-11 Short Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM) (China: DF-11)
Range: 300km, Payload: 500kg

Although Pakistan had started development of the Hatf-I and Hatf-II during the 1980s the acquisition of foreign missile technology during the early 1990s was crucial to the future development of more capable missiles. The key technology transfer during this time was the purchase of M-11 short-range missiles which became operational by 1993 and are still in service. It is possible that China was reluctant to supply longer range missiles due to the 300km limit agreed in the 1987 Missile Technology Control Regime. Although development of the M-11 had started in the 1970s it was in 1992 still very modern, and it demonstrates the strength of Pakistan-Chinese relations because a) by exporting this technology China must have known that they were providing Pakistan with the means to develop rockets that would one day range over their own cities and b) it entered service with Pakistan years before it did with China&#8217;s own forces. 



Ghaznavi Short Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM) (Hatf III)
Range: 290km, Payload: 500kg

The Hatf-III is essentially the locally built equivalent to the M-11, although the design is distinct. The missile is solid fuelled for enhanced mobility/shoot and scoot. The final missile was handed over to the Pakistani military in 2007. 


Abdali Short Range Ballistic Missile (SRBM) (Hatf II)
Range: 200km, Payload: 500kg.

Years after abandoning the Hatf-II, the designation was recycled for a similar but more modern (and presumably more successful) design. The system is probably a replacement for the increasingly obsolete Hatf-I. 



Shaheen I Medium Range Ballistic Missile (MRBM)(Hatf IV)
Range: 750km, Payload: 750kg

The Shaheen-I represents Pakistan&#8217;s indigenous MRBM program, and can potentially strike Mumbai and New Delhi from Pakistani soil. It is almost certainly nuclear capable. Being solid fuelled it is far harder to detect prior to launch than the SCUD or other liquid fuelled systems.



Ghauri Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM)(Hatf V)
Range: 1,500km (2,500km Hatf-Va), Payload: 700-1,200kg

Although the 750km range of the Shaheen-I was ample to assure nuclear deterrence against India, being able to threaten New Delhi, and even reach Mumbai from the South Eastern tip of Pakistan, Pakistan wanted a longer ranged missile. The 1,500km (some source 1,400km) ranged Ghuari-I missile could range over most of India from Pakistani territory. This was promptly followed up by an enhanced version capable of firing 2,500km. 

The Ghauri family is essentially the North Korean NoDong type and represents the technological safeguard against the more advanced indigenous Shaheen program. Having said that, the Ghauri appears to have got the spotlight relative to its more potent stable mate.



Shaheen II Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM)(Hatf VI)
Range: 2,500km, Payload: 1,000kg

Although the name implies a close relative of the Shaheen-I, the Shaheen-II is in fact quite different in almost every detail, though most noticeable is the fact that it is much larger being divided into two stages. The fins are also completely different and the TEL is necessarily much longer. 

The 2,500km range Shaheen-II is estimation the most potent ballistic missile in Pakistani service, being able much quicker to ready and fire than the Ghauri because of its solid-fuel motor. 



Babur Cruise Missile (Hatf VII)
Range: 700km, Payload: 300-500kg

Developed from technology acquired when several US Tomahawk cruise missile enroot to Taliban targets in Afghanistan crashed in Pakistan, the Babur appears to be a very credible cruise missile. 

The initial trials version was launched from a single rail trailer mounted launcher that elevated to nearly vertical for firing. This launcher was also displayed at IDEAS06 defense exhibition with a dummy missile. 


Although it is possible that this design is also used for some in-service units, the folding tail fins of the Bubar prove that it was always intended for compact box or tube launch. The main in-service Bubar unit carries four missiles mounted on an off-road truck chassis similar to those used by Pakistan&#8217;s ballistic missiles, although in this case the cab is similar to that of the Chinese M-11. Although it&#8217;s not yet clear whether the missile will be fired vertically, I don&#8217;t think that is the case after looking at the launcher in more detail. The framework around the box launchers appears to be for some form of hording. 


Thunder (Ra&#8217;ad ) Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM)(Hatf-VIII)
Range: 350kg, Payload: 300-500kg (est)

The Ra&#8217;ad is significantly smaller than the Babur, at approximately 5.25m in length, making it much better suited to combat aircraft. 


Although the Babur could be carried by aircraft it is too large for most in an operational setting. The Hatf-VIII is likely to be carried by Mirage-III fighter bombers on the centerline hardpoint, but cold be carried by F-16s and potentially JF-17s in the future. It&#8217;s too large for the PAF&#8217;s F-7s and A-5s. The Hatf-VIII is the PAF&#8217;s first serious long ranged standoff weapon, giving them reach over most of India, albeit under resistance from Indian forces. It is not clear whether it will carry nuclear warheads &#8211; conventional seems more likely &#8211; but it may get nuclear warheads simply for political purposes with the Air Force playing their role in Pakistan&#8217;s deterrence. 

Bluffers Guide.


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## Safriz

The Author needs to update on Babur missile...A four missile version was paraded,but never went into production.
The final and current launcher carries three missiles.

The article did not mention the advances in re-entry module of shaheen II.
It has sideways rocket motors which allows multiple changes of flight path to confuse ABM systems.

Ghauri was built on Russian SS-18's doctrine.(not design)
At that time Pakistan lacked accuracy and CEP was in many miles.
So a heavy lifter was needed to carry a large nuclear bomb which can annihilate the whole of downtown mumbai. Thats why hydrazine based liquid rocket design was persued due to its heavy lift capabilities.
Later advances in technology improved accuracy and a heavy lifter was not needed. As Pakistan could now target with higher accuracy using lighter smaller warheads.
Still we dont have much fissile material,and for that reason we wont see an MIRV anytime soon,as with the current stock of weapon grade uranium and plutonium its better to disperse the warneads onboard georaphically distributed platform than risking mounting them on one or few large MIRV carrying missiles....as that will give enemy more chance to neutralize our nukes by striking a few select targets and destroying the few MIRV carrying silos or TELs.
The only thing we need now is true depressed trajectory missiles,which we dont have.
Because we still use fins and veins for missile manoevering.
Unlike india's K series which have gimballing rocket nozzle instead of veins,and hence a true depressed trajectory ballistic missile.


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## MFK5000

Once we have heard about TIPU Missile (ICBM).....any Update..:/


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## Safriz

MFK5000 said:


> Once we have heard about TIPU Missile (ICBM).....any Update..:/



Shelved due to change in doctrine....
Reading the comments above will help.


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## [Bregs]

Pakistan has variable variety of missile in its arsenal


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## Bratva

Pakistani missile hitting target 0:16-0:20


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## Basel

Technically where Pakistan's missile tech stands as per today's standards, because India is advance fast in this field too due availability of funds and foreign support.


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## AsianLion

We need to sell our missiles as much as possible to earn vital foreign reserves.


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## Dr. Strangelove

AsianUnion said:


> We need to sell our missiles as much as possible to earn vital foreign reserves.



cant sell missiles with range of over 300 km


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## AUz

Basel said:


> Technically where Pakistan's missile tech stands as per today's standards, because India is advance fast in this field too due availability of funds and foreign support.



Pakistan's missile technology is as sophisticated as it gets.

Missile programs are developed by doctrines. When it comes to that, Pakistan is ahead of india in terms of developing a missile system according to the stated doctrine. 

india has to care about china so they have to work more. Thats why they are working on ICBMs.

Pakistan's doctrine is more specific on india...and we cover entire Indian landmass...and our cruisemissiles are hit indian capital...we also have air launched nuclear missiles that india lacks..moreover, now we have moved to battle-field nuclear weapons with NASR to complete sabotage indian cold-start doctrine...

indian approach is different. They aren't focusing on stand-off, highly precise weaponary..they are going for the range since they still don't cover entire landmass of China.

All in all, our missile program is almost 100% where we want it to be! Complete success, Mashallah!

We already have capability to develop an ICBM, too. But that doesn't fit into our doctrine.............as of now.  

Director General of Pakistan Atomic Commission...Dr Samar Mubarak Mand...already said in interview couple of years ago about how Pakistan has achieved the capability to make an ICBM, if the government gives an order.

I'm pretty sure we already have all the designs, drawings, and plans for our ICBM...

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## gslv mk3

Basel said:


> Technically where Pakistan's missile tech stands as per today's standards, because India is advance fast in this field too due availability of funds and *foreign support*.




Usual BS.A country that can make *space launchers* do not need foreign assistance to make ICBMs.



AUz said:


> Missile programs are developed by doctrines. When it comes to that, Pakistan is ahead of india in terms of developing a missile system according to the stated doctrine.



Can you elaborate?



> they are going for the range since they still don't cover entire landmass of China.



google Agni III,Agni IV,Agni V


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## AUz

gslv mk3 said:


> Usual BS.A country that can make *space launchers* do not need foreign assistance to make ICBMs.



There is foreign assistance in every program. Pakistan got it, you got it, Chinese got it, and so on.

Denying it is not worth it. And there is no shame in so-called foreign assistance. Even U.S is producing F-35s, and Boeing 787s with other countries' help. Thats how world works in 21st century.





> Can you elaborate?



Simple.

Pakistan's doctrine is india-specific. So we are spending resources on weapons like stand-off nuclear cruise missiles, precise weapons, nuclear LACMs, battle-field nuclear weapons etc.

India's doctrine take China as its enemy too..and for it, range is more important than say stand-off weapons for now. So it is focusing on more ranges etc.

Now, in terms of Pakistan's doctrine, we have "deployed" nuclear missiles that cover _entire_ indian land mass. We have _deployed _nuclear cruise missiles capable of hitting indian capital.

india is still behind on its doctrine when it comes to china. They are "developing" systems that will bring entire Chinese landmass under their range. And then they'll move on to nuclear cruise missile capable of reaching Pakistan's capital and so on. (The program is already there. Tests will start soon. We already tested ours a decade ago..but indians were working on increasing ranges back then because that was more important for indian doctrine).





> google Agni III,Agni IV,Agni V



Agni V just had one test mate...it is still developing...

We tested nuclear stealthy cruise missile in 2005..and we are still in a process of "deploying" it.

There are still couple of years remaining before Agni V gets "deployed"...


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## gslv mk3

AUz said:


> There is foreign assistance in every program. Pakistan got it, you got it, Chinese got it, and so on.



Well,the fact is we did receive foreign components,use foreign test facilities ,but we have been able to replace foreign components with Indigenous ones(RLG on present missiles is an example) & now have built our own test facilities (hypersonic windtunnels & the like ).The same with China-If we see new advanced technologies from these states,we should credit indigenous R&D,and not Soviets who helped us decades before.




> india is still behind on its doctrine when it comes to china. They are "developing" systems that will bring entire Chinese landmass under their range. And then they'll move on to nuclear cruise missile capable of reaching Pakistan's capital and so on.
> 
> Agni V just had one test mate...it is still developing...
> 
> We tested nuclear stealthy cruise missile in 2005..and we are still in a process of "deploying" it.
> 
> There are still couple of years remaining before Agni V gets "deployed"...



Its actually false-We already have China under our range.An Agni III (already inducted ) already have have range of 5000 kms (3500 km range is with 2.5 tonne payload ) with 1.5 tonne payload.Agni V has strike range in excess of 5500 kms,non disclosed figure.

Agni V has been tested 2 times,and is supposed to be inducted in 2014-2015.

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## AUz

gslv mk3 said:


> Well,the fact is we did receive foreign components,use foreign test facilities ,but we have been able to replace foreign components with Indigenous ones(RLG on present missiles is an example) & now have built our own test facilities (hypersonic windtunnels & the like ).The same with China-If we see new advanced technologies from these states,we should credit indigenous R&D,and not Soviets who helped us decades before.



Fair enough.

Level of foreign assistance decreases with time. Thats the case with India, China, Pakistan, and even Iran now.

No country ever gets 100% indigenous. Collaborations with scientists and research of other allied counties is always happening.





> Its actually false-We already have China under our range.An Agni III (already inducted ) already have have range of 5000 kms (3500 km range is with 2.5 tonne payload ) with 1.5 tonne payload.Agni V has strike range in excess of 5500 kms,non disclosed figure.



Fair enough.

But why then India is building Agni V? What new technology is being incorporated there? MIRV or something? I'm pretty sure its not because of range only. Increasing range is one of the most easiest challenge of ballistic missiles...other technologies are real thing.

india will now move to Land Attack Cruise Missiles attacking opponents' critical targets with high precision...Nirbhay is already scheduled to take first flight this year I guess.



> Agni V has been tested 2 times,and is supposed to be inducted in 2014-2015.



Induction just after two test? Not sure about that...

Advance missile programs require *ALOT *of testing and trials...Probably Army itself will carry further tests and trials.


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## gslv mk3

AUz said:


> But why then India is building Agni V? What new technology is being incorporated there? MIRV or something? I'm pretty sure its not because of range only. Increasing range is one of the most easiest challenge of ballistic missiles...other technologies are real thing.
> 
> india will now move to Land Attack Cruise Missiles attacking opponents' critical targets with high precision...Nirbhay is already scheduled to take first flight this year I guess.



MIRV is supposed to go on board A 5 /A 6.There are many more improvements like composite third stage,canister etc .Nirbhay is getting ready for next test.Another Ramjet based Supersonic LRCM is underway (no Russian JV this time )

I


> Induction just after two test? Not sure about that...
> 
> Advance missile programs require *ALOT *of testing and trials...Probably Army itself will carry further tests and trials.



3 tests-A test of canisterised Agni V is going to be conducted.Yes,SFC conducts its own tests.


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## jarves

Agni 5 will be inducted next year,This year we will test Cansisterised version of Agni5.

*Agni-5 to be inducted in armed forces by next year - iNooz*

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## anonymus

AUz said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But why then India is building Agni V? What new technology is being incorporated there? MIRV or something? I'm pretty sure its not because of range only. Increasing range is one of the most easiest challenge of ballistic missiles...other technologies are real thing.



Because in order to cover whole of China, we have to place missiles in Arunanchal or Sikkim. With Agni 5,China could be hit from anywhere in India.

I have read in some paper from RAND that Agni-3 is not intended for China but for Pakistan.We have officially withdrawn prithvi missile from strategic command.


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## fatman17



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## A.Rafay

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 22948


We used to see missile tests every sixth or 8th month. Now its been along time since a test. Whats going on...have we halted testing previous missiles and now focusing on a new one?

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## fatman17

A.Rafay said:


> We used to see missile tests every sixth or 8th month. Now its been along time since a test. Whats going on...have we halted testing previous missiles and now focusing on a new one?


 
tests are based on evaluation requirements. as the program matures, you tend to test less.

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## The Deterrent

A.Rafay said:


> We used to see missile tests every sixth or 8th month. Now its been along time since a test. Whats going on...have we halted testing previous missiles and now focusing on a new one?


Well the last test was almost 5 months ago (of 4x Nasrs). Regarding halting of any tests, nothing of that sort has happened. Both old and new systems will be tested soon.

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## HRK

AhaseebA said:


> Well the last test was almost 5 months ago (of 4x Nasrs). Regarding halting of any tests, nothing of that sort has happened. Both old and *new systems* will be tested soon.



any hint .... 'SL' or SLV ...

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> any hint .... 'SL' or SLV ...



Or maybe S3...


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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> any hint .... 'SL' or SLV ...





Bilal. said:


> Or maybe S3...


Just wait, you'll get your answers soon.

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## Bilal.

AhaseebA said:


> Just wait, you'll get your answers soon.




Allah karay ke khoda pahar aur nikla chuha na ho jai... Not one of those just improved short rangers I hope..


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## Cool_Soldier

Any development regarding long range Shaheen-3 missile..? No news for long time


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## Nishan_101

Any any news about Ghauri III, IV and Vs...

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## The Deterrent

Nishan_101 said:


> Any any news about Ghauri III, IV and Vs...


Yeah they are on sale on the _parchoon-ki-dukaan _right next door.

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## Nishan_101

AhaseebA said:


> Yeah they are on sale on the _parchoon-ki-dukaan _right next door.



Why did you said that...???


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## fatman17

HATF-VIII Raad


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## shaheenmissile

Pakistan has been developing laser isotope separation technique. That's why warhead size has reduced.


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## Bilal.

shaheenmissile said:


> Pakistan has been developing laser isotope separation technique. That's why warhead size has reduced.



And what does an enrichment technology have to do with warhead miniturization?


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## shaheenmissile

Bilal. said:


> And what does an enrichment technology have to do with warhead miniturization?


Use your brain.Purer the fissile material,lesser will be needed for sustained fission and fusion. Smaller will be the required warhead size.


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## Bilal.

shaheenmissile said:


> Use your brain.Purer the fissile material,lesser will be needed for sustained fission and fusion. Smaller will be the required warhead size.



No. It has nothing to do with "purer" fissile material. Weapons grade is weapons grade. Our warheads are becoming smaller because we are shifting to plutonium and of course due to design refinement.

The amount required has more to do with design refinement and type of fissile material. For instance, where a uranium based warhead would require 15-20 kg fissile material, a plutonium warhead would achieve it with 4-6 kg plutonium. But as you can see that's just a small fraction of the overall weight and hence the sofistication of design is the main driving force behind warhead miniaturisation.

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## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> No. It has nothing to do with "purer" fissile material. Weapons grade is weapons grade. Our warheads are becoming smaller because we are shifting to plutonium and of course due to design refinement.
> 
> The amount required has more to do with design refinement and type of fissile material. For instance, where a uranium based warhead would require 15-20 kg fissile material, a plutonium warhead would achieve it with 4-6 kg plutonium. But as you can see that's just a small fraction of the overall weight and hence the sofistication of design is the main driving force behind warhead miniaturisation.



Another critical design enhancement is using tritium for fission boosting, it further reduces the warhead. Hence the inception of NASR class battle rage nukes.

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## Bilal.

Bratva said:


> Another critical design enhancement is using tritium for fission boosting, it further reduces the warhead. Hence the inception of NASR class battle rage nukes.



If I am not mistaking we tested boosted fission device in 98.


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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> Another critical design enhancement is using tritium for fission boosting, it further reduces the warhead. Hence the inception of NASR class battle rage nukes.


no pakistan uses lithium 6 instead of deutrium tritium



Bilal. said:


> No. It has nothing to do with "purer" fissile material. Weapons grade is weapons grade. Our warheads are becoming smaller because we are shifting to plutonium and of course due to design refinement.
> 
> The amount required has more to do with design refinement and type of fissile material. For instance, where a uranium based warhead would require 15-20 kg fissile material, a plutonium warhead would achieve it with 4-6 kg plutonium. But as you can see that's just a small fraction of the overall weight and hence the sofistication of design is the main driving force behind warhead miniaturisation.


Yes. Purity of fissile material does have effect on size.Please read more on the subject.


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## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> If I am not mistaking we tested boosted fission device in 98.



The problem is industrial scale production of tritium and how pure the end product would be. Tritium has a half life ~12 years and needs to replenish repeatedly . Initial tritium production facilities could produce small amount of it. 

Now it is evident breakthrough in production and refinement of tritium as well as plutonium has allowed warheads to maintain similar yield that of HEU while at same time decreasing size of it

Some useful info about tritium and Pakistani production of tritium

Future Supply of Tritium Explosive Puts US Nuclear Arsenal in Doubt

Khushab - Pakistan Special Weapons Facilities

Khushab Tritium Production Facility | Facilities | NTI



shaheenmissile said:


> no pakistan uses lithium 6 instead of deutrium tritium
> 
> Yes. Purity of fissile material does have effect on size.Please read more on the subject.



Mama, Hawai fire na mar

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## The Deterrent

shaheenmissile said:


> no pakistan uses lithium 6 instead of deutrium tritium
> 
> Yes. Purity of fissile material does have effect on size.Please read more on the subject.


Who have you been talking to?


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## Dr. Strangelove

shaheenmissile said:


> no pakistan uses lithium 6 instead of deutrium tritium
> 
> .


what have u been smoking


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## Bratva

Old article but interesting info about Ra'ad ALCM


ISLAMABAD - Pakistan flight-tested the sophisticated Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) Hatf VIII Ra'ad on Thursday, a couple of days after the reported completion of ballistic missile tests.The over 350 kilometre-range missile, according to military, ‘enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea’. Earlier on Tuesday, Pakistan had test-fired the Short Range Ballistic Missile (SRBM), Hatf IX Nasr purportedly to complete the test-exercise of SRBMs and Medium Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBMs). 

The exercise included three missile tests, two of which were held on May 10th and April 25th involving the respective test-launches of Ghaznavi-I and Shaheen I-A missiles.New series of MRBM missile tests is reportedly scheduled in the coming July

.Officials at Strategic Plans Division (SPD) described the ALCM Hatf VIII Ra'ad as a ‘Tri-dimensional Optimum Cruiser’ due to its sophisticated technologically advanced pre-launch air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-sea features and capability to reach optimal accuracy point in all the three launch modes. 

Like SRBMs and MRBMs, (with exception to Hatf IX Nasr), Ra'ad cruise missile can carry nuclear and conventional warheads simultaneously with a reported payload (carrying) capacity of nuclear weapons upto the weight range of 200 kilograms and those of conventional weapons up to 700 kg. (SRBM Nasr can only carry nuclear warheads but has fastest impact time). 

*The officials said, Ra'ad is characterised with an inherent Air-Borne System (ABS) for Enhanced Target Identification and Accuracy (ETIA) on air-to-air mission. This feature, sources mentioned, is designed to augment the missiles operational efficacy under ‘less optimum and even zero optimum’ weather conditions. Reportedly, the missile can be air-launched from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 jets while in the next two years*
*

It further said:‘A major additional feature of today's (Thursday’s) test was the effective employment of the National Command Authority's fully automated Strategic Command and Control Support System (SCCSS). It has enabled robust Command and Control capability of all strategic assets with round the clock situational awareness in a digitised network centric environment to decision makers at National Command Centre (NCC)’.

Pakistan test-launches ‘tri-dimensional’ cruise missile*


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## HRK

Bratva said:


> Old article but interesting info about Ra'ad ALCM
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD - Pakistan flight-tested the sophisticated Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) Hatf VIII Ra'ad on Thursday, a couple of days after the reported completion of ballistic missile tests.The over 350 kilometre-range missile, according to military, ‘enables Pakistan to achieve strategic standoff capability on land and at sea’. Earlier on Tuesday, Pakistan had test-fired the Short Range Ballistic Missile (SRBM), Hatf IX Nasr purportedly to complete the test-exercise of SRBMs and Medium Range Ballistic Missiles (MRBMs).
> 
> The exercise included three missile tests, two of which were held on May 10th and April 25th involving the respective test-launches of Ghaznavi-I and Shaheen I-A missiles.New series of MRBM missile tests is reportedly scheduled in the coming July
> 
> .Officials at Strategic Plans Division (SPD) described the ALCM Hatf VIII Ra'ad as a *‘Tri-dimensional Optimum Cruiser’* due to its sophisticated technologically advanced pre-launch* air-to-air*, air-to-surface, and air-to-sea features and capability to reach optimal accuracy point in all the three launch modes.
> 
> Like SRBMs and MRBMs, (with exception to Hatf IX Nasr), Ra'ad cruise missile can carry nuclear and conventional warheads simultaneously with a reported payload (carrying) capacity of nuclear weapons upto the weight range of 200 kilograms and those of conventional weapons up to 700 kg. (*SRBM Nasr can only carry nuclear warheads* but has fastest impact time).
> 
> *The officials said, Ra'ad is characterised with an inherent Air-Borne System (ABS) for Enhanced Target Identification and Accuracy (ETIA) on air-to-air mission. This feature, sources mentioned, is designed to augment the missiles operational efficacy under ‘less optimum and even zero optimum’ weather conditions. Reportedly, the missile can be air-launched from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 jets while in the next two years
> 
> It further said:‘A major additional feature of today's (Thursday’s) test was the effective employment of the National Command Authority's fully automated Strategic Command and Control Support System (SCCSS). It has enabled robust Command and Control capability of all strategic assets with round the clock situational awareness in a digitised network centric environment to decision makers at National Command Centre (NCC)’.
> 
> Pakistan test-launches ‘tri-dimensional’ cruise missile*



*Am I reading too much* or is this article (published: *June 01, 2012*) need some correction ...... Missile wali Sarkar @The Deterrent ....... 

ALCM Hatf VIII Ra'ad as a *‘Tri-dimensional Optimum Cruiser’* due to its sophisticated technologically advanced pre-launch* air-to-air *air-to-surface, and air-to-sea features and capability to reach optimal accuracy point in all the three launch modes.

Reportedly, the missile *can be air-launched from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 jets while in the next two years*

*The officials said, Ra'ad is characterised with an inherent Air-Borne System (ABS) for Enhanced Target Identification and Accuracy (ETIA) on air-to-air mission*

*SRBM Nasr can only carry nuclear warheads *


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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> *Am I reading too much* or is this article (published: *June 01, 2012*) need some correction ...... Missile wali Sarkar @The Deterrent .......


It surely does 



> ALCM Hatf VIII Ra'ad as a *‘Tri-dimensional Optimum Cruiser’* due to its sophisticated technologically advanced pre-launch* air-to-air *air-to-surface, and air-to-sea features and capability to reach optimal accuracy point in all the three launch modes.


Evidently B.S. Air-to-sea is same as air-to-surface.


> Reportedly, the missile *can be air-launched from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 jets while in the next two years*


Yes it is possible in future, with the older F-16s. For now JF-17 has priority.


> *The officials said, Ra'ad is characterised with an inherent Air-Borne System (ABS) for Enhanced Target Identification and Accuracy (ETIA) on air-to-air mission*


They are just giving DSMAC a complex name.


> *SRBM Nasr can only carry nuclear warheads*


Replace "can" with "will".

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> It surely does
> 
> 
> Evidently B.S. Air-to-sea is same as air-to-surface.
> 
> Yes it is possible in future, with the *older F-16s*. For now JF-17 has priority.
> 
> They are just giving DSMAC a complex name.
> 
> Replace "can" with "will".



A secondary questions .....

Why 'old' F-16s ....???


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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> A secondary questions .....
> 
> Why 'old' F-16s ....???


Because they were allegedly modified for delivering nuclear weapons.

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## Armstrong

The Deterrent said:


> Because they were allegedly modified for delivering nuclear weapons.


 
Yaaar itniii dair ho gaiii no new missile !  

Lack of funds or lack of need ?


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## The Deterrent

Armstrong said:


> Yaaar itniii dair ho gaiii no new missile !
> 
> Lack of funds or lack of need ?


Referring to a new IRBM, both. Lack of need through the end of Musharraf's era, followed by lack of funds in Zardari's era.
But since now there are new threats on the horizon (BMDs), appropriate solutions are being developed and will be introduced when ready.

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## shaheenmissile

Currently all funds are diverted towards refining nuclear warhead design instead of missiles


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## TeesraIndiotHunter

shaheenmissile said:


> Currently all funds are diverted towards refining nuclear warhead design instead of missiles



Who told you?


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## amardeep mishra

The Deterrent said:


> Yeah it is. Actually I have covered this feature a while ago, in some random threads...here it is again..



Hi dear @The Deterrent ,
Are you sure it is an aerospike? I mean the ends are not tapered and flat. What an aerospike does is- it helps produce "detached shockwave" that reduces drag and heating. The boundary layer is inviscid whereas other region isnt

Thats an aerospike-
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...Zy7gOazmP0IT0hm1HgxdS6Q63ifZhlj0hqUygttRCGC6v


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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi dear @The Deterrent ,
> Are you sure it is an aerospike? I mean the ends are not tapered and flat. What an aerospike does is- it helps produce "detached shockwave" that reduces drag and heating. The boundary layer is inviscid whereas other region isnt
> 
> Thats an aerospike-
> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...Zy7gOazmP0IT0hm1HgxdS6Q63ifZhlj0hqUygttRCGC6v



Amardeep, did you know that you are posting on a website owned by the ISI?


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## SOHEIL

What happened to shaheen 3?


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