# Pakistan Navy to Purchase Frigates from China



## Zarvan

Admiral Zaka Ullah said: contract for frigates has been singed with China, Two OPVs will also be inducted via Holland.

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## BetterPakistan

Zarvan said:


> Admiral Zaka Ullah said: contract for frigates has been singed with China, Two OPVs will also be inducted via Holland.



do you remember I told you that Pak-China $5 bn defence deal definitely include a few frigates?? I am sure its gonna be 4-6 type 054a because if these are included than the price quoted makes some sense

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## Zarvan

BetterPakistan said:


> do you remember I told you that Pak-China $5 bn defence deal definitely include a few frigates?? I am sure its gonna be 4-6 type 054a because if these are included than the price quoted makes some sense


I really hope it's not Type 54 A but a Frigate which has VLS which can fire Cruise Missiles.

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## BetterPakistan

Zarvan said:


> I really hope it's not Type 54 A but a Frigate which has VLS which can fire Cruise Missiles.



I don't think there's any other option than type 054A from China and we can request China to include a VLS on it. It will be a lighter version of type 054a which will weigh 3500 tonnes

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Zarvan said:


> Admiral Zaka Ullah said: contract for frigates has been singed with China, Two OPVs will also be inducted via Holland.


@Zarvan bhai I think this is the speech !
27:00 mins !!!!

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## CHACHA"G"

After listening to him , Its not the order with Submarines , This Frigates is some thing else or new or other order, So it might be latest frigate that China have now!!!! I am also having sense that Pak Navy can fire Zarab from Sub if not it is surly(already) Ship and Costal base ,,,,,, with Babur ,,,,,, and what is Herba surface to surface missile ?????? Listen at 28:00.
And we definitely need that survey ship................. Good step.
Edit: And the Guy With The Bag

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## Aamir Hussain

check out the guy with the bag -- nuclear launch codes!!!! This means Navy too is a part of the nuuke deliver and now the triad is complete!!!

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## Shiji

Aamir Hussain said:


> check out the guy with the bag -- nuclear launch codes!!!! This means Navy too is a part of the nuuke deliver and now the triad is complete!!!


Lol! That's a collapsable bulletproof messenger bag to protect vip from direction of fire.

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## Zarvan

Shiji said:


> Lol! That's a collapsable bulletproof messenger bag to protect vip from direction of fire.


Yes that is why he walks way behind the VIP for GOD sake it's not that



CHACHA"G" said:


> After listening to him , Its not the order with Submarines , This Frigates is some thing else or new or other order, So it might be latest frigate that China have now!!!! I am also having sense that Pak Navy can fire Zarab from Sub if not it is surly(already) Ship and Costal base ,,,,,, with Babur ,,,,,, and what is Herba surface to surface missile ?????? Listen at 28:00.
> And we definitely need that survey ship................. Good step.
> Edit: And the Guy With The Bag


Yes it seem the order is new and could be for these 

*Multi-purpose in Frigate Typ 057 (China)*




Social button for Joomla
*China has completed the design of a new frigate project Type 057 fourth generation.*

It is expected that the construction of ships of this type will start at the end of 2014 - the first quarter of 2015. Presumably, a series of frigates of the new project will consist of 20 vessels, and their supply of Chinese Navy will be completed by 2025.



As part of the Navy of the People's Liberation Army of China frigates Type 057 Project will replace the same number of obsolete ships of the same class of the project Type 053. for the first time the project Type 057 ships will be equipped with a hybrid power plant, which will significantly reduce their noise compared to previous projects frigates. Displacement Type 057 will be about 4.5 thousand tons. The ships will be equipped with new radar installations vertical launch missiles and anti-aircraft missile systems. The frigate design will be used stealth technology. On frigates Type 057 project will be based, two anti-submarine helicopters and reconnaissance drones.

In mid-March 2013 the Chinese Navy adopted a new Type 056 frigate project, built using stealth technology. The fleet ship with hull number 582 was named "Bengbu" in honor of the prefecture in Anhui province in eastern China. As expected, in the interests of the Chinese military will be built 20 ships of this type.



*CHARACTERISTICS*

Displacement, t 4500

Main propulsion combined electricity



*WEAPONS*

Shock missiles 2x4 PU RCC anti-aircraft missile system with

32 VPU cells for HQ-10 SAM

1 x PU SAM FL-3000N Armament 1 x 76mm AU

Aircraft Armament:

2 - Helicopter - drones







http://finansy-news.com/en/tech/69-multi-purpose-in-frigate-typ-057-china

*China's CSOC showcases a new 4,000-tonne frigate*






A model of the 4,000-tonne frigate showcased by China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) at LIMA 2017 in Langkawi. Source: IHS Markit/ Michele Capeleto

Chinese state-owned shipbuilder China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) revealed technical specifications of a new frigate design it is showcasing at the LIMA 2017 exhibition in Langkawi.

In an interview with _Jane's_, a CSOC engineer disclosed that the "new ship is a derivative of the Jiangkai II class of frigates, but features a renewed superstructure".

According to specifications confirmed by the company, the vessel is slightly larger than the Jiangkai II, featuring an overall length of 135 m, a beam of 16 m, a draught of 4.4 m, and a displacement of around 3,850 tonne.

The platform is powered by four sets of 16PA6STC engines in a CODAD configuration, driving two propeller shafts for a top speed of up to 26 kt. It has an endurance of 21 days, and standard range of 4,000 nautical miles at cruising speed of 18 kt.

Where the innovation stands, however, is in the armament suite and sensors. Weapons aboard comprise a single-barrel 76 mm main naval guns, topped up by two six-barrel Type 730A 30 mm guns for short-range self defence.





Stern view of the 4,000-tonne frigate model showcased by China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) at LIMA 2017 in Langkawi. (IHS Markit/ Michele Capeleto)

"Unlike in other versions [of frigates displayed by CSOC at defence shows], the two 30 mm guns are no longer mounted on the main bridge, but rather amid-ship, closer to the [24-cells] surface-to-air missile [SAM] launcher."

The ship's foredeck still hosts a 32-cell vertical launching system (VLS) firing the HHQ-16 (40 km of range), and there are two quadruple launchers of the C-802 surface-to-surface missile (SSM) mounted amid-ship.

Commenting on the sensors, the engineer added that "the above-water sensor suite will include a phased-array radar mounted in an integrated mast. The ship will also mount an over the horizon [OTH] radar comparable to the [active/passive] SLR66".

The frigate's anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities will be provided by a hull-mounted sonar and torpedo tubes.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options:　**ihs.com/contact*




To read the full article, Client Login
(325 of 411 words)


http://www.janes.com/article/69073/china-s-csoc-showcases-a-new-4-000-tonne-frigate

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## Thunder.Storm

Edited:
We did some sub system test in April for herba missile.and now a days we testing our indigenous ir systems for different purposes in Jhang.

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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> We did some sub system test in April for herba missile.and now a days we testing our indigenous ir systems for different purposes in multan.


Any idea which Frigate are we talking about here. A new design of ship was displayed at our IDEAS nobody knew about it why it's being shown and now this is being told by outgoing Naval Chief it makes things really interesting 

@Rashid Mahmood @Horus @Oscar

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## CHACHA"G"

Zarvan said:


> Yes that is why he walks way behind the VIP for GOD sake it's not that
> 
> 
> Yes it seem the order is new and could be for these
> 
> *Multi-purpose in Frigate Typ 057 (China)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social button for Joomla
> *China has completed the design of a new frigate project Type 057 fourth generation.*
> 
> It is expected that the construction of ships of this type will start at the end of 2014 - the first quarter of 2015. Presumably, a series of frigates of the new project will consist of 20 vessels, and their supply of Chinese Navy will be completed by 2025.
> 
> 
> 
> As part of the Navy of the People's Liberation Army of China frigates Type 057 Project will replace the same number of obsolete ships of the same class of the project Type 053. for the first time the project Type 057 ships will be equipped with a hybrid power plant, which will significantly reduce their noise compared to previous projects frigates. Displacement Type 057 will be about 4.5 thousand tons. The ships will be equipped with new radar installations vertical launch missiles and anti-aircraft missile systems. The frigate design will be used stealth technology. On frigates Type 057 project will be based, two anti-submarine helicopters and reconnaissance drones.
> 
> In mid-March 2013 the Chinese Navy adopted a new Type 056 frigate project, built using stealth technology. The fleet ship with hull number 582 was named "Bengbu" in honor of the prefecture in Anhui province in eastern China. As expected, in the interests of the Chinese military will be built 20 ships of this type.
> 
> 
> 
> *CHARACTERISTICS*
> 
> Displacement, t 4500
> 
> Main propulsion combined electricity
> 
> 
> 
> *WEAPONS*
> 
> Shock missiles 2x4 PU RCC anti-aircraft missile system with
> 
> 32 VPU cells for HQ-10 SAM
> 
> 1 x PU SAM FL-3000N Armament 1 x 76mm AU
> 
> Aircraft Armament:
> 
> 2 - Helicopter - drones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://finansy-news.com/en/tech/69-multi-purpose-in-frigate-typ-057-china
> 
> *China's CSOC showcases a new 4,000-tonne frigate*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A model of the 4,000-tonne frigate showcased by China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) at LIMA 2017 in Langkawi. Source: IHS Markit/ Michele Capeleto
> 
> Chinese state-owned shipbuilder China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) revealed technical specifications of a new frigate design it is showcasing at the LIMA 2017 exhibition in Langkawi.
> 
> In an interview with _Jane's_, a CSOC engineer disclosed that the "new ship is a derivative of the Jiangkai II class of frigates, but features a renewed superstructure".
> 
> According to specifications confirmed by the company, the vessel is slightly larger than the Jiangkai II, featuring an overall length of 135 m, a beam of 16 m, a draught of 4.4 m, and a displacement of around 3,850 tonne.
> 
> The platform is powered by four sets of 16PA6STC engines in a CODAD configuration, driving two propeller shafts for a top speed of up to 26 kt. It has an endurance of 21 days, and standard range of 4,000 nautical miles at cruising speed of 18 kt.
> 
> Where the innovation stands, however, is in the armament suite and sensors. Weapons aboard comprise a single-barrel 76 mm main naval guns, topped up by two six-barrel Type 730A 30 mm guns for short-range self defence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stern view of the 4,000-tonne frigate model showcased by China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) at LIMA 2017 in Langkawi. (IHS Markit/ Michele Capeleto)
> 
> "Unlike in other versions [of frigates displayed by CSOC at defence shows], the two 30 mm guns are no longer mounted on the main bridge, but rather amid-ship, closer to the [24-cells] surface-to-air missile [SAM] launcher."
> 
> The ship's foredeck still hosts a 32-cell vertical launching system (VLS) firing the HHQ-16 (40 km of range), and there are two quadruple launchers of the C-802 surface-to-surface missile (SSM) mounted amid-ship.
> 
> Commenting on the sensors, the engineer added that "the above-water sensor suite will include a phased-array radar mounted in an integrated mast. The ship will also mount an over the horizon [OTH] radar comparable to the [active/passive] SLR66".
> 
> The frigate's anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities will be provided by a hull-mounted sonar and torpedo tubes.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options:　**ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (325 of 411 words)
> 
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/69073/china-s-csoc-showcases-a-new-4-000-tonne-frigate



I only want this to be 4500+ frigates with VSL, and that news also means we are going to buy Turkish Coverts(when ever that happen) , to fill Covert category................. 
So PN will have ,

Latest Missile Boats
New and latest FAC (light one )
Coverts(I m very much hopeful) 
OPVs 
Frigates (I pray latest ones are with VSL and 4500+ Medium category)
Subs 
Now only thing left is Destroyers , If the Frigates are Medium category . .. . . . . . . Let us all pray for Pakistan and our Navy.

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## ziaulislam

does this mean turkey deal is dead

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## Basel

BetterPakistan said:


> I don't think there's any other option than type 054A from China and we can request China to include a VLS on it. It will be a lighter version of type 054a which will weigh 3500 tonnes



Basically there are many concepts available based on tested platforms, it's up to the client what is suitable.

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## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> does this mean turkey deal is dead


No that is separate

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## Mentee

what is herba missile system? Anyone?

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## bananarepublic

With the rate of expansion of the Pakistan navy it will become a formidable force against india

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## Vapnope

Shiji said:


> Lol! That's a collapsable bulletproof messenger bag to protect vip from direction of fire.


I am yet to understand why the guards don't wear bulletproof vests themselves?

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## Shiji

Zarvan said:


> Yes that is why he walks way behind the VIP for GOD sake it's not that


As someone who has actually underwent CP (Close Protection) I can assure you that, that is a messenger bag.
Like this one







Vapnope said:


> I am yet to understand why the guards don't wear bulletproof vests themselves?


Sometimes they do most of the times they don't, you have to understand that CP Personal are the last resorts before that tons of security paraphernalia is already in place. Also chest rigs etc tend to slow you down, while in bodyguard senario speed is essentially required in removing the VVIP.

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## Cornered Tiger

Thunder.Storm said:


> indigenous ir systems



What is this?, explain a bit more, what is meant by IR systems? Who is gonna use it?

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## Mrc

When did they test azb missile from submarine?? and why we need 2 sub fired missiles?? What's herba missiles??? 

8 sub marines is a great force... I would not worry about destroyers... unless we also want an aircraft carrier... frigates are good... and we shud aim to further increase sub numbers and missile and detection ranges

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## Falcon26

So under the outgoing naval chief, the level and impact of the naval modernization has been greater than even the army and the Air Force? Quite impressive. The 2020s will be an exciting times for the Pakistani military.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Firstly thank you to the departing Head of Navy "THANK YOU SIR" May you enjoy the remainder of your retirement in great joy with your family and let the new Leader take Navy forward

The source is 100% credible and can't be more credible then this video

a) Fast Attack Boats introduction (Most likely Azmat class missile boats)
b) Dutch Patrol OPV
*c) Purchase of Additional Frigates from China (F22P+ or Type054) higher chances of F22P+ as before, Pakistan Navy had initially made suggestion on a customized F22P frigate for Navy but could be Type 054*
d) Discussion of successful Babur Cruise missile launch from Submarines
e) Discussion about Zarb Coastal Defence Missile
f) Confirmation of purchase of 8 Submarines from China in 2015 that project is seperate clearly indicated in the speech
*g) New Harba Missile (Surface to Surface Missile being announced by Navy) 
h) Purchase of High quality Sea surveilence Ship for sea , traffic control and better management of sea assets
*Work on upgrading PN's ATR planes into MPA's in Germany will finish by January 2018.
*Sea King helicopters from UK will be inducted by end of 2017.
*

*It might be the Type054 1-4 Units for protection of CPEC gateway it was well understood that greater responsibility comes with CPEC gateway *
*








*

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## sparten

What the Navy doing with a Surface to Surface Missile?

Unless they plan on employing it as an SLBM?

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## hussain0216

Very much required to defend against and attack india

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> Any idea which Frigate are we talking about here. A new design of ship was displayed at our IDEAS nobody knew about it why it's being shown and now this is being told by outgoing Naval Chief it makes things really interesting
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood @Horus @Oscar


I am working on it. Waiting for confirmed info but i think its f-22p pakistani modified for pakistani weapons.

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## Falcon26

sparten said:


> What the Navy doing with a Surface to Surface Missile?
> 
> Unless they plan on employing it as an SLBM?



Technically any missile launched against another ship from a naval platform is surface to surface. We just don’t know what this missile is whether it’s anti ship missile or land attack.

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## Thunder.Storm

Herba is a new missile system and in developing stage.

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## Thunder.Storm

Cornered Tiger said:


> What is this?, explain a bit more, what is meant by IR systems? Who is gonna use it?


Infrared imaging for some of our system bcz Pak has many systems which needs it

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## Zarvan

Thunder.Storm said:


> I am working on it. Waiting for confirmed info but i think its f-22p pakistani modified for pakistani weapons.


If we wanted that we would have ordered them long ago these are some new ones which were also shown recently by China in various defence exhibitions.









*Chinese Shipbuilder CSOC unveiled new Frigate, LHD and Submarine designs at IDEX 2013*

Beijing based China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. (CSOC) unveiled several new designs during IDEX 2013, the international defense exhibition held in the United Arab Emirates. Navyrecognition took the opportunity to get some details about these new designs during the event, including a new LHD design, the S20 submarine and a new stealth frigate design.




*
CSOC's three new models on show during IDEX 2013*

*








 
*

*CSOC New LHD*

The sign next to the model might have said "LPD", the model showcased on CSOC's stand at IDEX really was an LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock).

Reported specifications (length of 198 meters, displacement of 22,000 tons, breadth of 21.80 meters, and maximum speed of 22 Knots) appear to be close to those of a Mistral class LHD for example.

A CSOC representative at the show insisted the design was for the export market exclusively. After inquiring about the design's projection capabilities the same representative told us the LHD had 4 helicopter spots and could carry 8 more internally inside the hangar. Regarding troops accommodations, we were told the design could accommodate in excess of 700 soldiers and over 50 armored vehicles. The CSOC representative confirmed the presence of a well-deck for amphibious operations but declined to comment on it capacities or specifications.

Looking at the model's details, we can guess that CSOC's LHD design is fitted with two naval gun mounts at the bow (each carrying their own Optical Fire Control), two FL-3000N (with 18 cells/missiles each) missile systems at the stern and two Type 730 (or the newer Type 1130) 30mm Gatling type CIWS located forward and aft on the island of the LHD.


*








 
*

*CSOC S20 SSK Submarine
*
CSOC was also showcasing a new submarine on its stand at IDEX: The S20. *
*
The CSOC representative gave us the following specifications for this new submarine:
Length: 66 meters
Breadth: 8 meters
Maximum Draft: 8 meters
Displacement (submerged): 2,200 tons
Maximum speed: about 20 Knots
Crew: 40*
*
The person declined to disclose the maximum depth and endurance of the S20. We were told the weapons fit may varry according to customer requirements but the S20 may accommodate heavy torpedoes and anti-ship missiles from six torpedo tubes and deploy mines and special forces. It may also be fitted with AIP (air-independent propulsion) system if a customer requires. *
*
Finally the CSOC representative declined to comment any similarities of the S20 with the existing Type 041 (Yuan class) submarine currently in service with the Chinese Navy.

*








 
*

*CSOC Stealth Frigate*

The new "High Performance Frigate" (we were told there was currently no existing project name or designation for this type of frigate) showcased next to the LHD and S20 submarine at IDEX featured a relatively stealthy designed we have never seen before. *
*
Reported specifications of the Frigate are as follow:
Length: 135 meters
Breadth: 15.3 meters
Displacement: 3,500 tons
Maximum speed: 28 Knots

We were told crew complement would be around 110 sailors. The type is fitted with 32 VLS cells at the stern, a H/PJ-26 main gun (Chinese version of the Russian AK-176 76.2mm naval gun), two H/PJ-13 CIWS (Chinese version of the Russian AK-630), two manned machine gun mounts on top of the main bridge, eight anti-ship missile launchers and one FL-3000N missile system on top of the helicopter hangar.* 
*
We could not get any information regarding anti-submarine capabilities or the sensor suite fitted on this Frigate. We were just told that "it depends on the customer needs". 

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...e-lhd-and-submarine-designs-at-idex-2013.html

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## Bossman

Shiji said:


> Lol! That's a collapsable bulletproof messenger bag to protect vip from direction of fire.



No, Jammers



Vapnope said:


> I am yet to understand why the guards don't wear bulletproof vests themselves?



They do, under their Tunic. These are different from combat bulletproof vests. Most likely of the VIPs are also wearing them

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## Shiji

Vapnope said:


> I am yet to understand why the guards don't wear bulletproof vests themselves?





Bossman said:


> No, Jammers
> So, your understanding is that a VVIP is visiting a loc who has the best security and the best jammer that the protection guys come up with is a handheld one with minimum power and range instead of the dozen vehicle mounted or standalone ones?
> Some of the knowledge on the subject is so flawed!


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## Imran Khan

man submarines are not yet arrived and then this news

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## Cornered Tiger

Thunder.Storm said:


> Infrared imaging for some of our system bcz Pak has many systems which needs it



Can u please name the that facility in Multan? Please


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## Thunder.Storm

Cornered Tiger said:


> Can u please name the that facility in Multan? Please


Next thing u will ask about the names of engineers and staff and address.come on it not exact multan and sorry i can't mention the facility.

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## Hassan Guy

Why not go for an indigenous design?


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## YeBeWarned

I thought we were buying 1 OPV ...so its 2 which is good .. My good guess is type 54 Pakistan navy specific . but its just a wild guess .

@Penguin bro what is main purpose of OPV ? And how good they are ?

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## Darth Vader

let your imagination run wild......

Give some time you will know what's coming


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## WaLeEdK2

Imran Khan said:


> man submarines are not yet arrived and then this news



Submarines take years to build. India ordered the Scorpenes in 2005 but got them more around 8 years later. Our subs will come in 2020s

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## Imran Khan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Submarines take years to build. India ordered the Scorpenes in 2005 but got them more around 8 years later. Our subs will come in 2020s


china work so quick sir

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## CriticalThought

Thunder.Storm said:


> Next thing u will ask about the names of engineers and staff and address.come on it not exact multan and sorry i can't mention the facility.



Any chance this is related to our indigenous IR warhead efforts for WVR?


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## Super Falcon

Pak need power full FRIGATES with good air defence system on board

Hope getting bigger FRIGATES with better weapons

What about Turkish ADA class Corvettes

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since Pakistan Military likes to use Arabic words in their Weapons
Lets Analyse the New Missile *"Harba" 
*
WEAPON OF LAST RESORT FOR NAVY !!!
(by) flight - هَرَبًا​
Google Translator states it as "ESCAPE Missile"
Appears to be a *STRATEGIC WEAPON!!!*

*What if it is WEAPON THAT CAN ESCAPE DETECTION *
*







*

*But it could be just another missile to carry mini Nuke*
*



*​

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## khanasifm

What was displayed at last IDEAS show next to the sub ?? What were the specs ??

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2016-11/23/c_135852043.htm

View attachment 430046


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## Thunder.Storm

CriticalThought said:


> Any chance this is related to our indigenous IR warhead efforts for WVR?


No it is not for wvr(at least for now)

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## khanasifm

Ideas 2016 Chinese naval display

Looks like modified f22p ?? F23p ??


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## khanasifm

Chinese naval exhibit at ideas 2016

Another model exhibited at same expo ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Type 053H3 split into two branches: (1) the F-22P and (2) C28A. The photo above (from the IDEAS website) is that of the C28A, which lacks the exhaust stack of the F-22P. That same exhaust stack is also visible on the Tiger-class, showing that the Tiger is from the F-22P line.

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## Falcon26

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Firstly thank you to the departing Head of Navy "THANK YOU SIR" May you enjoy the remainder of your retirement in great joy with your family and let the new Leader take Navy forward
> 
> The source is 100% credible and can't be more credible then this video
> 
> a) Fast Attack Boats introduction (Most likely Azmat class missile boats)
> b) Dutch Patrol OPV
> *c) Purchase of Additional Frigates from China (F22P+ or Type054) higher chances of F22P+ as before, Pakistan Navy had initially made suggestion on a customized F22P frigate for Navy but could be Type 054*
> d) Discussion of successful Babur Cruise missile launch from Submarines
> e) Discussion about Zarb Coastal Defence Missile
> f) Confirmation of purchase of 8 Submarines from China in 2015 that project is seperate clearly indicated in the speech
> *g) New Harba Missile (Surface to Surface Missile being announced by Navy)
> h) Purchase of High quality Sea surveilence Ship for sea , traffic control and better management of sea assets
> *Work on upgrading PN's ATR planes into MPA's in Germany will finish by January 2018.
> *Sea King helicopters from UK will be inducted by end of 2017.
> *
> 
> *It might be the Type054 1-4 Units for protection of CPEC gateway it was well understood that greater responsibility comes with CPEC gateway *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Including the 8-subs, it seems the total value of the naval modernization program is at least 10 billion roughly. People still think Pakistan military can’t afford big ticket items for the Air Force? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Windjammer

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Including the 8-subs, it seems the total value of the naval modernization program is at least 10 billion roughly. People still think Pakistan military can’t afford big ticket items for the Air Force? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Windjammer


It's not always the money of itself. If things were only about term payments/installments, then Pakistan pay for a lot of systems (see the recent Erieye purchase). However, many Western vendors have to decide if there's a spot for them in India before dealing with Pakistan.

Saab has some proprietary technology of great value that isn't easy to get from other places, so it can withstand Indian pressure and compete in both markets. Denel lost out in the Indian market and believes that it can gain more out of Pakistan, so it's dealing with Pakistan. However, Dassault, DCNS, TKMS, etc, while offering a country like Egypt with generous loans, will keep Pakistan at arms length in most areas due to bigger business interests in India.

The PAF is sadly stuck in that spot where its preferred suppliers (i.e. France, UK and US) are in those countries with (A) bigger business interests in India, (B) geopolitical interests with India or (A) + (B). That basically limits the pool to China, and at that point, if you want to optimally meet your interests then you need to source from home. Thus, you'll notice that the drive for indigenization is strongest in the PAF (i.e. Project Azm).

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## Thorough Pro

Long range surface to surface, land attack missile



Mentee said:


> what is herba missile system? Anyone?



It's ready for deployment, or probably already deployed



Thunder.Storm said:


> Herba is a new missile system and in developing stage.



@mods, please check his ip



Cornered Tiger said:


> Can u please name the that facility in Multan? Please



a blessing in disguise



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not always the money of itself. If things were only about term payments/installments, then Pakistan pay for a lot of systems (see the recent Erieye purchase). However, many Western vendors have to decide if there's a spot for them in India before dealing with Pakistan.
> 
> Saab has some proprietary technology of great value that isn't easy to get from other places, so it can withstand Indian pressure and compete in both markets. Denel lost out in the Indian market and believes that it can gain more out of Pakistan, so it's dealing with Pakistan. However, Dassault, DCNS, TKMS, etc, while offering a country like Egypt with generous loans, will keep Pakistan at arms length in most areas due to bigger business interests in India.
> 
> *The PAF is sadly stuck in that spot where its preferred suppliers (i.e. France, UK and US) are in those countries with (A) bigger business interests in India, (B) geopolitical interests with India or (A) + (B). That basically limits the pool to China, and at that point, if you want to optimally meet your interests then you need to source from home. Thus, you'll notice that the drive for indigenization is strongest in the PAF (i.e. Project Azm)*.

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## Thunder.Storm

Thorough Pro said:


> Long range surface to surface, land attack missile
> 
> 
> 
> It's ready for deployment, or probably already deployed
> 
> 
> 
> @mods, please check his ip
> 
> 
> 
> a blessing in disguise


What happened to my ip.


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## Basel

Falcon26 said:


> Technically any missile launched against another ship from a naval platform is surface to surface. We just don’t know what this missile is whether it’s anti ship missile or land attack.



Pakistan mostly use SSM word regarding BMs, let's see what Navy use it for because it's first time they are using.



Imran Khan said:


> man submarines are not yet arrived and then this news



It's a package deal with China.


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## aziqbal

FFG and SSK from China

2 x OPV from Dutch, 1 to be built at KSEW

Survey ship from China 

ATR and Sea Kings coming

I seriously hope it's VLS Type 054A custom for PN and not some F22P varient with TV aerials

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## grey boy 2

According to Chinese source from reliable site
This is what Pakistan navy is probably getting, a complete new designed 4000 class FFG with VLS, stealth features

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## khanasifm

grey boy 2 said:


> According to Chinese source from reliable site
> This is what Pakistan navy is probably getting, a complete new designed 4000 class FFG with VLS, stealth features



Looks like it’s hanger is wide enough to accommodate 2 hell of z9 type after folding tail and rotar 


Question is how many and all being built in China ?? I guess if naval chief was interviewed during the ceremony things would come out also now the Chinese side can also disclose name and type ?? As its in the open ???

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## grey boy 2

khanasifm said:


> Looks like it’s hanger is wide enough to accommodate 2 hell of z9 type after folding tail and rotar
> 
> 
> Question is how many and all being built in China ?? I guess if naval chief was interviewed during the ceremony things would come out also now the Chinese side can also disclose name and type ?? As its in the open ???


I've no clue on where or how many will be built however i got you guys some more pics

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## MystryMan

grey boy 2 said:


> According to Chinese source from reliable site
> This is what Pakistan navy is probably getting, a complete new designed 4000 class FFG with VLS, stealth features


It means ADA class will not come?

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## khanasifm

I guess the anti sub rockets ?? And torpedos tubes are under covers some where ??? If it’s multiple purpose it will have anti air anti surface as well as anti sub role

Looks like the model displayed at IDEAS 2016

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## CHACHA"G"

grey boy 2 said:


> I've no clue on where or how many will be built however i got you guys some more pics



Thanks bro , I wish and Pray that we are buying this one .......... we need that type of Frigates . A full and real package . Fingers crossed lets see what comes out,





And if this is above Frigates then we will surly have Coverts from Turkey , when ? that's time will tell. 
And on missile test , Brahmos reply is long over dew. . . . . . . I bleed green , finger crossed...........

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## Basel

grey boy 2 said:


> I've no clue on where or how many will be built however i got you guys some more pics



Why most export frigates from China don't have VLS launched AShM??

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## ChineseTiger1986

It is the de facto Type 054B, with 32 large VLS units from the Type 052D.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

grey boy 2 said:


> According to Chinese source from reliable site
> This is what Pakistan navy is probably getting, a complete new designed 4000 class FFG with VLS, stealth features









Well in all honesty we don't have a proper Frigate and this would help with bridging the gap we need 4 ships of this magnitutde for coastal Defence

I am expecting the F22p+ FRIGATE

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## Muhammad Omar

No dates were announced how long will that take to sign the deal or is it already ordered ???

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## ziaulislam

Muhammad Omar said:


> No dates were announced how long will that take to sign the deal or is it already ordered ???


he said it was already signed, but he didnt give time frame for delivery

surprisingly no mention of turkish frigates, so i think for now that could be on back ..
i guess funding will be the issue



MystryMan said:


> It means ADA class will not come?


4000 tones frigate is next to air defence..if this is true it will be wonders, but why do i have feeling its gona be sub 2800 tones frigate



Falcon26 said:


> Including the 8-subs, it seems the total value of the naval modernization program is at least 10 billion roughly. People still think Pakistan military can’t afford big ticket items for the Air Force? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Windjammer


all from china with loans and probably its around 5 billion not 10

PAF has been oping for f16s and concentrating on jf-17 which is a good idea(as the commonality between j-10/jf-17 is numerous)but only if 5th gen fighter is on the horizon

the indigenous solution is 15 years away may be 20 , so if we dont get J 31/j20 before 2025 than PAF has to opt for J10/J11/su35 to replace its mirages5 

i still believe that PAF and pakistani poltical brass played it wrong when it comes to f-16s, first PAF didnt do enough diplomacy second they didnt acquire j-10 in 2000s, which was probably the reason why USA released the f-16s in the first place, this is my guess from looking at Zulus, as soon as we buy from other people, uncle sam comes in with an offer

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is the de facto Type 054B, with 32 large VLS units from the Type 052D.


Can it carry HQ9b?

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> No dates were announced how long will that take to sign the deal or is it already ordered ???


It seem soon or deal could be already signed

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## Gryphon

PN designation for ex-Royal Navy Type 21 frigates (displacement<3800 t) is Tariq class destroyer (serving the 25th Destroyer squadron).

If 4000 t Chinese frigates have been ordered as replacement of Type 21's, why didn't Retd. Admiral Zakaullah say destroyers ?

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## HRK

grey boy 2 said:


> According to Chinese source from reliable site
> This is what Pakistan navy is probably getting, a complete new designed 4000 class FFG with VLS, stealth features



this seems the pic High Performance frigate (3500 tonnes class) with 32 VLS but according Military recognition site it *lacks *anti-submarine capabilities but would be nice addition specially in the presence of F-22P which already have some anti-sub warfare elements installed

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> Can it carry HQ9b?



Most likely, since we need to offer something more sophisticated than the regular HQ-9.

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## Abdul Mannan Tariq

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well in all honesty we don't have a proper Frigate and this would help with bridging the gap we need 4 ships of this magnitutde for coastal Defence
> 
> I am expecting the F22p+ FRIGATE




what possible modifications would be required to fire cruise and anti ship missiles, from this frigate, in the VLS ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan @wanglaokan

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## khanasifm

Is the mono hull confirmed or this Tri hull is an option or could be the option opted for?? http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a25375/chian-three-hull-frigate/

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## Zarvan

Abdul Mannan Tariq said:


> what possible modifications would be required to fire cruise and anti ship missiles, from this frigate, in the VLS ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Zarvan @wanglaokan


A bigger VLS that is what is required and ship size should be able to have it fit inside it

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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 430084
> 
> 
> View attachment 430085
> 
> 
> Chinese naval exhibit at ideas 2016
> 
> Another model exhibited at same expo ???



Looks very similar to CSOC 4000 ton class frigate

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> A bigger VLS that is what is required and ship size should be able to have it fit inside it


We can deliver a VLS design that can hold any missles PN asks, even cruise missle. A completely customized version. Then current dimension of VLS on type 055 DDG is even bigger than MK57.

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## Penguin

khanasifm said:


> Ideas 2016 Chinese naval display
> 
> Looks like modified f22p ?? F23p ??



C28A



grey boy 2 said:


> I've no clue on where or how many will be built however i got you guys some more pics


This is NOT the same ship as os #55....
...more like the one in #47

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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> We can deliver a VLS design that can hold any missles PN asks, even cruise missle. A completely customized version. Then current dimension of VLS on type 055 DDG is even bigger than MK57.


I know you can but would they fit in this Frigate

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> I know you can but would they fit in this Frigate


Pakistan navy goes for 4000 tons frigate I think?

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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> Pakistan navy goes for 4000 tons frigate I think?


I hope so

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## Advocate Pakistan

wanglaokan said:


> Pakistan navy goes for 4000 tons frigate I think?



Apparently, Tariq class can't be replaced by any sub 3000 tonne ship. But still a lot has changed technologically and smaller ships are now as powerful as larger ones previously. PN may also be looking into "numbers is strength" sort of scenario where it would like to field larger numbers of smaller ships than small numbers of large ships.

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## Hassan Guy

They will probably order more Z-9ec ASW choppers for the new frigates. 




But unlike the frigates there probably won't be a joint-production deal for the choppers.

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## Thunder.Storm

Hassan Guy said:


> They will probably order more Z-9ec ASW choppers for the new frigates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But unlike the frigates there probably won't be a joint-production deal for the choppers.


how much capable it is.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Algerian Navy recently got one from China

The *C28A option would be a ship 120 meter length* almost size of our OHP frigates
With more enhanced sensors visible in rear dome











Seems like PDF community is aiming high with this option (4000 Ton Ship)






One would imagine that China would allocate 4-8 (4000-8000 Ton ships for CPEC protection in Pakistan Ocean)

It would make sense to have


4 Type 054D destroyers (Joint Grant between China-Pakistan)
4 4000 Ton ships (Which Pakistan would buy)

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## TOPGUN

Thunder.Storm said:


> how much capable it is.




Put it this way PN , is very happy with it.

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## Muhammad Omar

4 Frigates from China 
4 Turkish Corvettes 
8 Subs Huge increase in the capabilities of PN 

4 Corvettes was on Soft loans $400 Million from Turkey they just can't back off from this project i guess

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## khanasifm

Muhammad Omar said:


> 4 Frigates from China
> 4 Turkish Corvettes
> 8 Subs Huge increase in the capabilities of PN
> 
> 4 Corvettes was on Soft loans $400 Million from Turkey they just can't back off from this project i guess



What is the source or just a guess here 4 frigates ??

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## Basel

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most likely, since we need to offer something more sophisticated than the regular HQ-9.



What about DK-10 and HQ-26???

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## Muhammad Omar

khanasifm said:


> What is the source or just a guess here 4 frigates ??



Have you heard the Speech of Admiral Zakaullah?? if not then do watch the video of his speech

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## Thorough Pro

It's the "role" not the "weight"



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> PN designation for ex-Royal Navy Type 21 frigates (displacement<3800 t) is Tariq class destroyer (serving the 25th Destroyer squadron).
> 
> If 4000 t Chinese frigates have been ordered as replacement of Type 21's, why didn't Retd. Admiral Zakaullah say destroyers ?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I hope it's 4 large frigates (4,000+ tons). It might be possible to fit 32 - ideally 48 - VLS cells large enough to (1) carry SSM/LACM, (2) quad-pack MR-SAM and (3) LR-SAM. I would dedicate the slant-launcher for the CM-802 supersonic cruising AShM. Couple that with a solid long-range AESA fire control radar and a passive OTH radar for long-range surveillance/detection.

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## alimobin memon

Too early to speculate maybe same f22p frigates.

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## khanasifm

Muhammad Omar said:


> Have you heard the Speech of Admiral Zakaullah?? if not then do watch the video of his speech



He did not state the number of frigates only that contract signed for frigate (s)

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## syed_yusuf

It is possible that PN is going for minimum 4 frigates. And possible 6. To buy 8 frigate out right might not be of PN CHARACTER. 

PN going for 2 OPV, 4 advance frigates, 4 advance Corvettes, 2 more azmat facm, 8 advance SSK, PN marines upgraded, ATR, and revamped PMSA with newer and updated ships and boats. In my openion, PN is arriving and will be of quality force to recon within next 3 years. In next 10 years PN will be a transformed force. With totally different fire power and reach.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> It is possible that PN is going for minimum 4 frigates. And possible 6. To buy 8 frigate out right might not be of PN CHARACTER.
> 
> PN going for 2 OPV, 4 advance frigates, 4 advance Corvettes, 2 more azmat facm, 8 advance SSK, PN marines upgraded, ATR, and revamped PMSA with newer and updated ships and boats. In my openion, PN is arriving and will be of quality force to recon within next 3 years. In next 10 years PN will be a transformed force. With totally different fire power and reach.


Numbers will also depend on type. We don't know what the displacement, capabilities or even desired role(s) of these frigates will be. For example, an AAW frigate with OTH and LR-SAM would not be bought in numbers, rather, it would be a command ship for other smaller ships (i.e. F-22P and maybe MILGEM if bought in the end).

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## Gryphon

The Chinese frigates appear a substitute to the now dead Milgem Ada corvette program (very likely).

Honestly, I don't expect the displacement to exceed 3000 t.

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## khanasifm

http://www.janes.com/article/67930/idex-2017-chinese-navy-to-acquire-new-trimaran-hull-frigate

Tonnage ?? Vs capability

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## khanasifm

Loi for ada http://www.janes.com/article/70935/...ods-for-pakistan-s-jf-17-fighters-says-report

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## khanasifm

Acting naval chief as naval chief Zaka was out of country 2015 news

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> The Chinese frigates appear a substitute to the now dead Milgem Ada corvette program (very likely).
> 
> Honestly, I don't expect the displacement to exceed 3000 t.


Ada Corvette is not dead these programs are simultaneous not same but different 



khanasifm said:


> View attachment 430395
> 
> 
> Acting naval chief as naval chief Zafar was out of country 2015 news


These are for sure not F-22 we would have gotten 1 one by now or would known that we are getting close

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## khanasifm

Per naval commanding officer interviewed of an f22 ship, published sometime ago f22p has room for vls so it may be it but opv being built 1+1 so some of the frigates will be locally built ??? Who know may be Jane’s will report in week or so

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## Zarvan

OCTOBER 09, 2017 | 05:42 PM
*پاکستان چین سے بحری جہاز اور 8 آبدوزیں خریدے گا*






















پاکستان اپنے دوست ملک چین سے بحری جہاز اور 8 آبدوزیں خریدے گا، بحری جہاز کے لئے ایک سودے پر دستخط بھی ہوگئے ہیں۔

چینی سرکاری اخبار گلوبل ٹائمز کے مطابق چین پاکستان کو ہتھیار برآمد کرنے والے بڑے ممالک میں سے ایک ہے، بیجنگ کے اسلحے کی تجارت میں مسلسل اضافہ ہورہا ہے، اسلام آباد بھی 8 آبدوزیں خریدنے کا منصوبہ بنارہا ہے ۔






اخبار نے فوجی ماہرین کے حوالے سے کہا کہ یہ کوئی حیران کن بات نہیں ہے کیونکہ فوجی ہتھیاروں کی تحقیق اور ترقی میں چینی اہلیت میں مسلسل اضافہ ہورہا ہے بلکہ جدیدترین ہتھیاروں کی تیار ی اور پیداوار میں ترقی کررہا ہے۔

بحریہ کے ایک ماہر لی جی کا حوالہ دیتے ہوئے اخبار لکھتا ہے کہ چین حالیہ برسوں کے دوران عالمی اسلحے کی صنعت کا ایک بڑا تیار کنندہ بن کر سا منے آیا ہے اور وہ چھوٹے ہتھیاروں سے ترقی کر کے اب جدید ترین ہتھیار کررہا ہے کیونکہ چین میں ہتھیاروں کی برآمد کے سلسلے میں سخت قوانین لاگو کئے ہیں ۔






گزشتہ 5 برسوں کے دوران چینی ہتھیاروں کی فروخت میں اضافہ ہوا ہے اور اسی عرصے کے دوران چین کا ہتھیاروں کی عالمی تجارت میں 6اعشارئی2فیصد کا حصہ بڑھ کر 7اعشاریہ4فیصد تک پہنچ گیا ہے۔

امریکی جریدے نیشنل انٹریسٹ نےبھی چینی ہتھیاروں کی جرمنی ،فرانس اور برطانیہ تک برآمد کے حوالے سے رپورٹ شائع کی تھی اور لکھا تھاکہ چین اب دنیا کو ہتھیار برآمد کرنے والا تیسرا بڑا ملک ہے۔

ایک رپورٹ کے مطابق امریکا دنیا بھر میں کم از کم 100ممالک کو اسلحہ فروخت کرتا ہے، اس کے فوجی اسلحہ کے مقابلے میں چینی اسلحہ قیمت میں بھی کم ہے اور بعد از فروخت سروس فراہم کرنے میں بھی چینی زیادہ سہولت دیتے ہیں، اس لئے اسلحہ کی فروخت میں اس کی ساکھ بہتر ہے۔






دفاعی ماہر لی نے مثال پیش کرتے ہوئے کہا کہ امریکہ نے بھارت کو ایف 16طیارے فروخت کئے جو قیمت میں بھی زیادہ تھے اور وہ زائد المیعاد بھی تھے، چین پاکستان کو جو جدید ترین ہتھیار اور آبدوزیں فروخت کررہا ہے وہ ایک اچھی مثال ہے، یہ آبدوزیں چین نے خود ڈیزائن کی ہیں، چینی ہتھیاروں کی کارکردگی بھی امریکی اور روسی ہتھیاروں کے مقابلے میں بہتر رہی ہے۔

چین 3 اصولوں پر ہتھیار برآمد کرتا ہے جن کا مقصد اپنے خریدار کی قانونی دفاعی اہلیت کو بہتر بنانے میں مدد دینا، عالمی اورعلاقائی امن و سلامتی کو بہتر بنانا اور خریدار کی اندرونی پالیسیوں میں عدم مداخلت ہے۔

https://jang.com.pk/latest/386556-pakistan-will-buy-war-ship-and-8-submarines-from-china

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## HAIDER

By Charlotte Gao
October 09, 2017

Pakistan’s former naval chief Muhammad Zakaullah said contracts have been signed to acquire frigates from China.

As one of the main recipients of Chinese arms, Pakistan has confirmed that it would buy eight stealth attack submarines valued at $4 to $5 billion from China, as _The Diplomat _reported in late 2016. Recently, Pakistan’s top naval official revealed that new contracts have been signed to acquire frigates from China, in addition to the eight submarines.

On October 7, Pakistan’s naval chief Muhammad Zakaullah officially handed over command to Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi in a ceremony held in Islamabad. In his farewell address, Admiral Zakaullah said that new vessels are being inducted while contracts have been signed to acquire frigates from China, in order to strengthen the Pakistani navy. However, he didn’t disclose the type of the frigates or any other details in his speech. In addition, he mentioned again that Pakistan’s navy is buying eight submarines from China, according to Pakistan’s English-language newspaper _Dawn._

As the Chinese government remains reticent about the information, Chinese media said this is the first time that Pakistan confirmed the contracts and assumed that Pakistan is more likely to have purchased Chinese new type of frigates with a displacement of more than 4,000 tons and features of integrated mast and vertical launch system. China and Pakistan maintain close military-to-military cooperation.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/pakistan-navy-to-purchase-frigates-from-china/

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## Imran Khan

real pic of this baby

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## Muhammad Omar

Imran Khan said:


> real pic of this baby


 
don't thinks china made one yet just a model

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## Imran Khan

Muhammad Omar said:


> don't thinks china made one yet just a model


model main wo maza kahan

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## ChineseTiger1986

Basel said:


> What about DK-10 and HQ-26???



The frigate is mostly focused on the air defense.

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## Basel

khanasifm said:


> Per naval commanding officer interviewed of an f22 ship, published sometime ago f22p has room for vls so it may be it but opv being built 1+1 so some of the frigates will be locally built ??? Who know may be Jane’s will report in week or so



Have you visited F-22P and asked the same question to serving officials??

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## YeBeWarned

it seems like a good Stealth Design with 3000+ Ton Displacement ..

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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Basel said:


> Have you visited F-22P and asked the same question to serving officials??



There was an interview published 3-4 years ago I think it was also posted on his forum it was about f22p and the person interviewed was the Co of one the ships if I remember on visit to an expo I think it was from Asian defence news and the expos was in south East Asian and topic of next gen f22p came during the interview will try to find it

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2015/06/17/pakistan-seeks-to-energize-naval-modernization/

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## khanasifm

May-2010
INTERVIEW

Captain Mirza Foad Amin Baig
Commanding Officer, PNS Zulfiqar

The first of Pakistan's four Sword-class frigates, PNS Zulfiqar, is preparing for a final sea inspection later in 2010 before being declared fully operational. Capt.Baig spoke to Guy Tormens when the ship visited Doha, Qatar.

Launched by China State Shipbuilding Corporation at its Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai on 19th April 2008, PNS Zulfiqar - the first of Pakistan Navy's (PN's) four Sword-class (F-22P) frigates - was commissioned on 30th July 2009.

Having completed the technical acceptance process followed by pier-side and at-sea training, the ship's company commenced a delivery voyage that took Zulfiqar to Manado for Indonesia's International Fleet Review (12-19 August), Port Kalang in Malaysia (27-30 August) and Colombo, Sri Lanka (5-7 Sept). The frigate arrived in Karachi on 13 September and was inducted into the PN fleet on 19 September.

"the remainder 0f 2009 and early 2010 was taken up by testing our sensors and weapons in home waters" says Capt. Mirza Foad Amin Baig, the Commanding Officer."in early March we sailed from Karachi for a deployment to the Arabian Gulf, before taking part in DIMDEX 2010 (The 2nd Doha International Maritime Defence Exhibition in Qatar, we successfully fired C-802 missiles in the Northern Arabian sea on 12 March, and on our way to Doha we conducted passex serials with both the Saudi navy and the Qatari naval forces.

Despite its strong visual resemblances to the Chinese navy's Jiangwei II-class (Type 053H3) frigates, Capt. Baig says the 3,144-ton Zulfiqar and its sister ships were designed to specific Pakistani requirements and incorporate many features hiitherto unknown in PN vessels. " most obvious are the radar cross-section reduction measures, clearly visible in the hull, main gun and the slightly angling superstructure". he notes." A lot of effort was also put into infrared signature, noise and electro-magnetic emission reduction. She is also the first major surface combatant of the PN to have a high level of automation on board".

A integrated platform management system controls the engines, hull services, electrical distribution and damage-control systems,"Zulfiqar has been fitted with a sophisticated German MTU damage-control system. Automatic detectors and sensor systems ensure an early warning for any damage occuring in any operational situation" says Capt.Baig. "Buoyancy is assured with two adjacent compartments flooded and a sprinkler system is fitted throughout the ship. these enhanced damage-control capabilities and the in-built redundency are important factors for unsupported long-distance crossings".Designed primarily for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and ant-surface warfare (ASuW), Zulfiqar also has a local area self-defense capability."I dare say that a Sword-class unit packs almost the combined fire-power of our six Tariq-class (Ex-UK RN Amazon-class (Type-21)) frigates. We feature quite a few capabilities not found on the pther Pakistani frigates".

The ASuW suite consists of two quadruple C-802 launchers (CSS-N-8'Saccade') and a 76mm gun based on the Russian AK-176M weapon. ASW assets comprise two triple ET-52C 324mm torpedo tubes, two sextuple RDC-32 rocket launchers and an Echo Type 5 hull-mounted active search and track sonar. An octuple launcher for FM-90N anti-air missiles is located forward of the bridge and two Type 730 30mm seven-barrel guns are provided for close-in defence (CIWS).

"The embarked Harbin Z-9EC helicopter provides us with over-the-horizon targeting for the C-802 missiles as well as a long-range detection capability and anti-submarine capability",Capt.Baig states."Our combat management suite is based on the chinese ZKJ-3C (a variant of the French TAVITAC) and the electronic-warfare system comprises the Chinese RWD-8 intercept system and a NJ8I-3 jammer".Sensors include a SUR-17 air-surveillence radar, an SR-60 air/surface search radar and a Kelvin-Hughes 2007 navigation radar.

While accepting that the integration of Chinese and Western systems was challenging, Capt.Baig says the package works well in practice and that Zulfiqar has considerable potential for future upgrade; for example, there is a space to install a vertical launch system in place of the FM-90N launcher. he anticipates that a forthcoming modernisation will see the FM-90N and SUR-17 combination replaced by the Chinese HQ-16 (a variant of the Russian SA-N-12 Shril).

Capt.Baig is pleased with the seaworthiness of the 123.4 m-long hull which, he says is "shaped to minimize the resistence of water and improve seakeeping in rough sea conditions. Two rudders and two controlable pitch propellers allow excellent manoeuvarability. We can conduct our tasks up to Sea State 5. Our CODAD (combined diesel and diesel) propulsion system (two Tognum MTU 12V 1163 TB 83 diesel engines) gives us a top speed of 28+ kt and the onboard fuel capacity provides a steaming range in excess of 6,000 n miles at 18 kt".

Compared with older vessels, crew habitability standards have been improved and noise kept to a minimum while air-conditioning has been installed in accomodation and operating compartments. Capt. Baig says"the core crew is 188, but we have a capacity for 212 and for short periods even up to 250".

Further weapons and sensor trials are planned before the frigate undergoes a final sea inspection later in 2010 and - all being well - is declared fully operational."one may well see PNS Zulfiqar taking part in anti-piracy operations in 2011".

The second Sword-class frigate, PNS Shamsheer, was commissioned in Shanghai on 19 December 2009, arrived in Karachi on 23 January 2010 (after stops in Singapore and Colombo) and was admitted into the Pakistani fleet on 8 Feburary. Ship three, Saif, is scheduled to commission on 31 July. The keel of the final unit, Aslat, was laid down on 10 December 2009 at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works and scheduled to join the fleet in December 2013.

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## khanasifm

May-2010
INTERVIEW

Captain Mirza Foad Amin Baig
Commanding Officer, PNS Zulfiqar

The first of Pakistan's four Sword-class frigates, PNS Zulfiqar, is preparing for a final sea inspection later in 2010 before being declared fully operational. Capt.Baig spoke to Guy Tormens when the ship visited Doha, Qatar.

Launched by China State Shipbuilding Corporation at its Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai on 19th April 2008, PNS Zulfiqar - the first of Pakistan Navy's (PN's) four Sword-class (F-22P) frigates - was commissioned on 30th July 2009.

Having completed the technical acceptance process followed by pier-side and at-sea training, the ship's company commenced a delivery voyage that took Zulfiqar to Manado for Indonesia's International Fleet Review (12-19 August), Port Kalang in Malaysia (27-30 August) and Colombo, Sri Lanka (5-7 Sept). The frigate arrived in Karachi on 13 September and was inducted into the PN fleet on 19 September.

"the remainder 0f 2009 and early 2010 was taken up by testing our sensors and weapons in home waters" says Capt. Mirza Foad Amin Baig, the Commanding Officer."in early March we sailed from Karachi for a deployment to the Arabian Gulf, before taking part in DIMDEX 2010 (The 2nd Doha International Maritime Defence Exhibition in Qatar, we successfully fired C-802 missiles in the Northern Arabian sea on 12 March, and on our way to Doha we conducted passex serials with both the Saudi navy and the Qatari naval forces.

Despite its strong visual resemblances to the Chinese navy's Jiangwei II-class (Type 053H3) frigates, Capt. Baig says the 3,144-ton Zulfiqar and its sister ships were designed to specific Pakistani requirements and incorporate many features hiitherto unknown in PN vessels. " most obvious are the radar cross-section reduction measures, clearly visible in the hull, main gun and the slightly angling superstructure". he notes." A lot of effort was also put into infrared signature, noise and electro-magnetic emission reduction. She is also the first major surface combatant of the PN to have a high level of automation on board".

A integrated platform management system controls the engines, hull services, electrical distribution and damage-control systems,"Zulfiqar has been fitted with a sophisticated German MTU damage-control system. Automatic detectors and sensor systems ensure an early warning for any damage occuring in any operational situation" says Capt.Baig. "Buoyancy is assured with two adjacent compartments flooded and a sprinkler system is fitted throughout the ship. these enhanced damage-control capabilities and the in-built redundency are important factors for unsupported long-distance crossings".Designed primarily for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and ant-surface warfare (ASuW), Zulfiqar also has a local area self-defense capability."I dare say that a Sword-class unit packs almost the combined fire-power of our six Tariq-class (Ex-UK RN Amazon-class (Type-21)) frigates. We feature quite a few capabilities not found on the pther Pakistani frigates".

The ASuW suite consists of two quadruple C-802 launchers (CSS-N-8'Saccade') and a 76mm gun based on the Russian AK-176M weapon. ASW assets comprise two triple ET-52C 324mm torpedo tubes, two sextuple RDC-32 rocket launchers and an Echo Type 5 hull-mounted active search and track sonar. An octuple launcher for FM-90N anti-air missiles is located forward of the bridge and two Type 730 30mm seven-barrel guns are provided for close-in defence (CIWS).

"The embarked Harbin Z-9EC helicopter provides us with over-the-horizon targeting for the C-802 missiles as well as a long-range detection capability and anti-submarine capability",Capt.Baig states."Our combat management suite is based on the chinese ZKJ-3C (a variant of the French TAVITAC) and the electronic-warfare system comprises the Chinese RWD-8 intercept system and a NJ8I-3 jammer".Sensors include a SUR-17 air-surveillence radar, an SR-60 air/surface search radar and a Kelvin-Hughes 2007 navigation radar.

While accepting that the integration of Chinese and Western systems was challenging, Capt.Baig says the package works well in practice and that Zulfiqar has considerable potential for future upgrade; for example, there is a space to install a vertical launch system in place of the FM-90N launcher. he anticipates that a forthcoming modernisation will see the FM-90N and SUR-17 combination replaced by the Chinese HQ-16 (a variant of the Russian SA-N-12 Shril).

Capt.Baig is pleased with the seaworthiness of the 123.4 m-long hull which, he says is "shaped to minimize the resistence of water and improve seakeeping in rough sea conditions. Two rudders and two controlable pitch propellers allow excellent manoeuvarability. We can conduct our tasks up to Sea State 5. Our CODAD (combined diesel and diesel) propulsion system (two Tognum MTU 12V 1163 TB 83 diesel engines) gives us a top speed of 28+ kt and the onboard fuel capacity provides a steaming range in excess of 6,000 n miles at 18 kt".

Compared with older vessels, crew habitability standards have been improved and noise kept to a minimum while air-conditioning has been installed in accomodation and operating compartments. Capt. Baig says"the core crew is 188, but we have a capacity for 212 and for short periods even up to 250".

Further weapons and sensor trials are planned before the frigate undergoes a final sea inspection later in 2010 and - all being well - is declared fully operational."one may well see PNS Zulfiqar taking part in anti-piracy operations in 2011".

The second Sword-class frigate, PNS Shamsheer, was commissioned in Shanghai on 19 December 2009, arrived in Karachi on 23 January 2010 (after stops in Singapore and Colombo) and was admitted into the Pakistani fleet on 8 Feburary. Ship three, Saif, is scheduled to commission on 31 July. The keel of the final unit, Aslat, was laid down on 10 December 2009 at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works and scheduled to join the fleet in December 2013.

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## Basel

khanasifm said:


> There was an interview published 3-4 years ago I think it was also posted on his forum it was about f22p and the person interviewed was the Co of one the ships if I remember on visit to an expo I think it was from Asian defence news and the expos was in south East Asian and topic of next gen f22p came during the interview will try to find it
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2015/06/17/pakistan-seeks-to-energize-naval-modernization/



PN will not go with F-22P until it's modified to huge extent or PN will only buy those if don't have cash and China finance then with soft loans but still other Chinese offering can be purchased with soft loans.

F-22Ps are not meant to be front line ships they are support ships that is why PN need more capable ships with larger displacement.

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## khanasifm

The question is new design all together or modified f23p ?? Even Chinese media is assuming

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## Hassan Guy

So 4 4000+ ton stealth frigates it seems.

I'm guessing its similar to the FREMM frigate?(anyone wanna touch up on that)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> So 4 4000+ ton stealth frigates it seems.
> 
> I'm guessing its similar to the FREMM frigate?(anyone wanna touch up on that)


IMO I wouldn't make any bets yet. Best to wait for IDEAS in November to see KSEW's mock-up.

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## HAIDER

This is newly design " stealth" . Must have totally different configuration.

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## Khafee

HAIDER said:


> This is newly design " stealth" . Must have *totally different *configuration.


"Totally different" would be over stretching it. Nonetheless, definitely more advanced than the F22P Zulfiqar Class.

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## khanasifm

this is the first time that Pakistan confirmed the contracts and 

ASSUMED

that Pakistan is more likely to have purchased Chinese new type of frigates with a displacement of more than 4,000 tons and features of integrated mast and ....

Again it still not confirmed but assumed to be > 4K tons

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## syed_yusuf

Is ideas this year ?

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## luciferdd

I think a type 054A+ equips HQ16B&YJ-12&4 X-band AESE may suitable for PN,but in fact it most likely will be a type 054A equips HQ16A&YJ-12A&no X-band AESE...the costs may be more impotent than any other things.

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## usmankhan9

The Russians were so impressed with the type-54A+ that they were considering it for their navy. Most probably it will be the new type-54B

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## Blue Marlin

so the milgem deal is dead (he never mentioned it)
as for the chinese frigates id imagine they will be versions of the type 54 family. theres no need to invest money in untested designs. last i heard the chinese are working on the type 54b with a fixed antenna mast.

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## Zarvan

Blue Marlin said:


> so the milgem deal is dead (he never mentioned it)
> as for the chinese frigates id imagine they will be versions of the type 54 family. theres no need to invest money in untested designs. last i heard the chinese are working on the type 54b with a fixed antenna mast.


No if didn't mentioned that doesn't mean it's dead

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## Arsalan

The image in opening post in misleading for now. There is absolutely no confirmation about what type of frigate we are going for? Chances are it will be F22p PLUS with some VLS for SAM. Details are not available yet.

@WAJsal @The Eagle @Slav Defence @TaimiKhan

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## MBT 3000

finally frigates

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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> No if didn't mentioned that doesn't mean it's dead


it was supposed to have been signed for in may, its now October.
unless @cabatli_53 has any updates
heck the turks were going on about a 700 tonne ssk sub where has that gone?

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## Zarvan

Blue Marlin said:


> it was supposed to have been signed for in may, its now October.
> unless @cabatli_53 has any updates
> heck the turks were going on about a 700 tonne ssk sub where has that gone?


Nobody new about this Frigate deal until Naval Chief decided to tell about it if it's not announced doesn't mean it's not happening we really like to keep things quite. For example we announced Frigate deal and still people don't know exactly what Submarine we are buying

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## Daniel808

Something like this one?
4,000+ tonnes, VLS System, Integrated mast.







But what will come, will depends with Pakistani navy request and budget of course.

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## Super Falcon

Pak navy needs definitely budget up lift with new bigger vessels with more powerful weapons

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Daniel808 said:


> Something like this one?
> 4,000+ tonnes, VLS System, Integrated mast.
> 
> View attachment 430879
> 
> 
> But what will come, will depends with Pakistani navy request and budget of course.


This would be ideal. The integrated mast could have an APAR as well as OTHR, with the latter providing long-range surveillance. The APAR can support AAW capabilities via HQ-16 and HQ-9.

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## Indian Jatt

I think PN should had pressed a little hard for destroyers, TYPE 52C or D, at least 2 of these with 4-6 frigates would had made more of a threat, i'm not saying as if its not a threat, but 2 destroyers and frigates together pack a punch or at least balance in the region....

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## S.Y.A

Indian Jatt said:


> I think PN should had pressed a little hard for destroyers, TYPE 52C or D, at least 2 of these with 4-6 frigates would had made more of a threat, i'm not saying as if its not a threat, but 2 destroyers and frigates together pack a punch or at least balance in the region....


no use, just bigger targets, and requiring more maintenance expenditure. numerous frigates+missile boats+corvettes are enough for area denial, supported by coastal AShM batteries and a dedicated air wing, they are more than enough for area denial

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## Indian Jatt

S.Y.A said:


> no use, just bigger targets, and requiring more maintenance expenditure. numerous frigates+missile boats+corvettes are enough for area denial, supported by coastal AShM batteries and a dedicated air wing, they are more than enough for area denial


It would had been opposite if your pockets were full....
But even PN would like to have capital ships, they are not just big ships they pack a lot of punch, They have good endurance, they act Like area defence ships for other ships to fight well, Powerful ships are the ones that fight well and protect itself too, China is beefing up and so is US, they have money, you have China. They have really good ships that go toe to toe with the US navy arleigh burke's. Our navy will soon have more of them, our each fleet has minimum 4 of them and it helps alot....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

For CPEC we do need 8 Type054D frigates becase it protects *Chinese - Pakistani *, national interest and also valuable trade goods are going thru and that really requires 4-8 High Clibre ships so that other "non-regional" players do not have to bother with bringing their own navy near our Borders

It may create confusion and unnecessary tension

We need to look beyond the F22P Sword class frigates becasue these are support Ships but they really need a Leadership Ship which the F22P can work closely with for greater defensive posture






It would make sense the TYPE054D would act as Pivot for Defence , and the F22P / Stealth Missile boats would be used in support capacity for the main Ships






*Ideally this should be part of the CPEC defence strategy Lease of Ships GRANT for 30 years*

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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would be ideal. The integrated mast could have an APAR as well as OTHR, with the latter providing long-range surveillance. The APAR can support AAW capabilities via HQ-16 and HQ-9.



What about DK-10 its said to be quad packable and have decent range??



S.Y.A said:


> no use, just bigger targets, and requiring more maintenance expenditure. numerous frigates+missile boats+corvettes are enough for area denial, supported by coastal AShM batteries and a dedicated air wing, they are more than enough for area denial



No, equipped with latest weapons and sensors they can be primary area air defence, ASW ships with secondary Anti Ship role.

That is what PN need to protect fleet far from shore.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> What about DK-10 its said to be quad packable and have decent range??
> 
> 
> 
> No, equipped with latest weapons and sensors they can be primary area air defence, ASW ships with secondary Anti Ship role.
> 
> That is what PN need to protect fleet far from shore.


Not sure what the latest is on the DK-10's development.

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## Umar.farooq.9

I am also wondering about what's happening with dk10s development ...by the looks of it seems like it's more advanced than hq 16

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## Hassan Guy

You know what would be funny, if the retired Navy chief came out and said "sorry I meant to say corvettes not frigates and that too from turkey not China, my mistake... Pakistan zindabad"

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## royalharris

To be honest,we don't care buy or not,nor from china or turkey
Only if it is good for your military 
Pathetic

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> You know what would be funny, if the retired Navy chief came out and said "sorry I meant to say corvettes not frigates and that too from turkey not China, my mistake... Pakistan zindabad"


Now imagine: "sorry, not corvettes, I mean fleet tanker."


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## Tank131

Dk-10 is based on sd-10, but there is no evidence of it being quad-packable at this point. It may turn out to be the case but for now the only basis for this is the statement tha6 it is meant to be like the ESSM is for USN... that could mean a number of things (including being their standard medium range missile).

That being said, i hope that whatever PN buys, they find a quad-packable medium range SAM. A 32 cell VLS could be set up with 12 LR-SAMs (hq-9) and 80 medium ranged quad packed SAMs backed by 24 short range SAMs (in FL3000N). With 8 AShM, an antisub rocket (like rdc32), 6 torpedo tubes and an ASW helicopter and you have the makings of a great multirole frigate.

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## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For CPEC we do need 8 Type054D frigates becase it protects *Chinese - Pakistani *, national interest and also valuable trade goods are going thru and that really requires 4-8 High Clibre ships so that other "non-regional" players do not have to bother with bringing their own navy near our Borders
> 
> It may create confusion and unnecessary tension
> 
> We need to look beyond the F22P Sword class frigates becasue these are support Ships but they really need a Leadership Ship which the F22P can work closely with for greater defensive posture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would make sense the TYPE054D would act as Pivot for Defence , and the F22P / Stealth Missile boats would be used in support capacity for the main Ships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ideally this should be part of the CPEC defence strategy Lease of Ships GRANT for 30 years*


There is no TYPE-54D i think you are trying to say TYPE-52D and what is you talking about single TYPE-52D price is 1-1.2 billion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and you are talking about 8 No chance


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*TYPE-52D*















*Type 054C*

I can see why China would Donate 8 Frigates for Safe Guard CPEC
Becasue a secure GAWADAR port is for benefit of Pakistan-China economic gateway

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## zheng2

just take one 054A and we will tell you how to build one.

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## CHI RULES

What ever frigate is being chosen should at least have PESA radar, medium range SAM with stealth features.

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## TOPGUN

And how do you know that China is going to donate 8 ships to PN ? any proof or logic behind it ?



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *TYPE-52D*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Type 054C*
> 
> I can see why China would Donate 8 Frigates for Safe Guard CPEC
> Becasue a secure GAWADAR port is for benefit of Pakistan-China economic gateway





AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *TYPE-52D*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Type 054C*
> 
> I can see why China would Donate 8 Frigates for Safe Guard CPEC
> Becasue a secure GAWADAR port is for benefit of Pakistan-China economic gateway


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## Ultima Thule

TOPGUN said:


> And how do you know that China is going to donate 8 ships to PN ? any proof or logic behind it ?


No sir just @AZADPAKISTAN2009 wishful thinking

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> No sir just @AZADPAKISTAN2009 wishful thinking


No it's not China when it comes to CPEC you can expect anything. China will earn billions of dollars from it giving few ships won't do any harm to them since 1965 till 1990 China almost gave us weapons for free they can do a lot when it comes to their long term benefits


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The reason is fully justify in case of war , China needs to have 8 Destroyers available on CPEC port and the best solution is a Grant to Pakistan of 8 Destroyers to safeguard any illegal trouble makers

China has to protect the China Southern Sea
and now also has to protect Western Gawadar port

And it would be easier if Pakistan maintains 8 destroyers  To help ease the burden of looking after CPEC

Also the destroyers would help , against any illegal Battlistic missile coming from unwanetd nations

Really in both Russia / China's interest

Russia wants to sell oil and China has lot of trade

Lease for 30 years would be also realistic figure

This would be a ideal choice 8

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> No it's not China when it comes to CPEC you can expect anything. China will earn billions of dollars from it giving few ships won't do any harm to them since 1965 till 1990 China almost gave us weapons for free they can do a lot when it comes to their long term benefits


1 or 2 may be but 8 too much @AZADPAKISTAN2009 living in fantasy world and wishful thinking and remember sir PLAN just start to induct TYPE-52D, this is their newest DDG, first priority is equipped PLAN to counter US, Japanese and South Korean navies so there will be least chance that we can get TYPE-52D in near future but may be new FFG like TYPE-57

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well compared to the other nations like Japan who have 50 ships Pakistan Navy has minimum numbers etc even Indonesia has tones of ships

So we have to be realistic , if we say CPEC is a MAJOR economic corridor then we must also have defence setup with 8 destroyers with Pakistan Navy makes complete sense why should China scramble Destroyers from China to Pakistan , when these 8 Destroyers can permenently stay in Gawadar and guard the sea

It would make sense Chinese fleet protects South China sea and ten a boosted up Pakistan Navy Guards the West Coast gawadar port

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> 1 or 2 may be but 8 too much @AZADPAKISTAN2009 living in fantasy world and wishful thinking and remember sir PLAN just start to induct TYPE-52D, this is their newest DDG, first priority is equipped PLAN to counter US, Japanese and South Korean navies so there will be least chance that we can get TYPE-52D in near future but may be new FFG like TYPE-57


We have gotten lot of things from China janab so not fantasy world but ourselves won't want to get them for free. We would like to pay for the weapons. As for ship which ever ship it should have VLS for Cruise Missiles


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Not Fantasy but a strategic reality if a Corridor of economic value is there a Massive defence force should also be there at Sea


Destroyer Ships will offer , nice Sea to Air protection 

Safe guard against any incoming missiles 

Will secure the area with wide range radar at sea

CPEC is serious stuff


Tomorrow if Russian Ships will bring Gas to Pakistan need to protect Gas Ships or Cargo of MI-35 Helicopters

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## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The reason is fully justify in case of war , China needs to have 8 Destroyers available on CPEC port and the best solution is a Grant to Pakistan of 8 Destroyers to safeguard any illegal trouble makers
> 
> China has to protect the China Southern Sea
> and now also has to protect Western Gawadar port
> 
> And it would be easier if Pakistan maintains 8 destroyers  To help ease the burden of looking after CPEC
> 
> Also the destroyers would help , against any illegal Battlistic missile coming from unwanetd nations
> 
> Really in both Russia / China's interest
> 
> Russia wants to sell oil and China has lot of trade
> 
> Lease for 30 years would be also realistic figure
> 
> This would be a ideal choice 8


No 8 is too much for PN 3-4 will be enough for Pakistan and CEPEC, which has a least chance chance to get because TYPE-52D China's newest DDG, first priority is to arm PLAN as quickly as
possible to counter US, Japanese and South Korean navies

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## Advocate Pakistan

pakistanipower said:


> No 8 is too much for PN 3-4 will be enough for Pakistan and CEPEC, which has a least chance chance to get because TYPE-52D China's newest DDG, first priority is to arm PLAN as quickly as
> possible to counter US, Japanese and South Korean navies



Agree.
Plus, if you all just noticed, in the past two decades, we haven't got the best which China had, it has always been their tier 2, 3 product that made into Pakistan.
Now, is it the Pakistanis that don't want the best from China or is it the Chinese that don't offer their best is the question. But if it's the latter one, than forget any Destroyer or J11s, you are not even getting a decent air defence ship.
The downsides of relying too much on one supplier, earlier it was U.S., now it's China.


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## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Not Fantasy but a strategic reality if a Corridor of economic value is there a Massive defence force should also be there at Sea
> 
> 
> Destroyer Ships will offer , nice Sea to Air protection
> 
> Safe guard against any incoming missiles
> 
> Will secure the area with wide range radar at sea
> CPEC is serious stuffCPECOTE]
> For those purpose 3-4 TYPE-52D will be enough for CPEC, 8 will too much for CPEC @AZADPAKISTAN2009





Advocate Pakistan said:


> Agree.
> Plus, if you all just noticed, in the past two decades, we haven't got the best which China had, it has always been their tier 2, 3 product that made into Pakistan.
> Now, is it the Pakistanis that don't want the best from China or is it the Chinese that don't offer their best is the question. But if it's the latter one, than forget any Destroyer or J11s, you are not even getting a decent air defence ship.
> The downsides of relying too much on one supplier, earlier it was U.S., now it's China.


Unfortunately we lack resources and $$$$$$$ to buy their best weapons



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Not Fantasy but a strategic reality if a Corridor of economic value is there a Massive defence force should also be there at Sea
> 
> 
> Destroyer Ships will offer , nice Sea to Air protection
> 
> Safe guard against any incoming missiles
> 
> Will secure the area with wide range radar at sea
> 
> CPEC is serious stuff
> 
> 
> Tomorrow if Russian Ships will bring Gas to Pakistan need to protect Gas Ships or Cargo of MI-35 Helicopters


No 8 is too much for PN 3-4 will be enough for Pakistan and CEPEC, which has a least chance chance to get because TYPE-52D China's newest DDG, first priority is to arm PLAN as quickly as
possible to counter US, Japanese and South Korean navies and PN Chief is saying that PN looking for FFG not DDG with a decent AESA and long range SAMS FFG as effective as large DDG like up coming TYPE-57

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## Thunder.Storm

CDWP also recommended two projects of Transport and Communications with a total proposed cost of Rs. 193 billion. Both of these projects were referred to ECNEC for further approval.
The projects approved in Transport and Communications sector are:


Design, Tendering Assistance and Construction of Malakand Tunnel Project valuing Rs. 177.9 billion
*Procurement/Construction of 06 x Maritime Patrol Vessels (4 x 600 Tons and 2 x 1500 Tons MPVs) for Pakistan Maritime Security Agency (PMSA) at a cost of Rs. 15.948 billion.*
*https://propakistani.pk/2017/10/20/31-development-projects-worth-rs-360-billion-approved-cdwp/*

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## khanasifm

Bottom line no one has clue so far what is ordered nothing from Jane’s or Chinese media just speculation in news like on pdf


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## khanasifm

Jane’s Nov 2016 so perhaps 2+2

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## Muhammad Omar

2 Will be made in China & 2 in Pakistan

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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 432441
> 
> 
> Jane’s Nov 2016 so perhaps 2+2



Could be any design (the one displayed at IDEAS 2016 or Tiger or worst case F-22P). Jane's isn't as reliable as people here think.

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## khanasifm

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Could be any design (the one displayed at IDEAS 2016 or Tiger or worst case F-22P). Jane's isn't as reliable as people here think.



At least an estimate of the number to be ordered by Pn is known, looks like type 21 will be replaced by it and Turkish ordered if order will be first time taking surface fleet over 12 meaning 12 ships over 2000 tons 

So 4+4+4

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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> At least an estimate of the number to be ordered by Pn is known, looks like type 21 will be replaced by it and Turkish ordered if order will be first time taking surface fleet over 12 meaning 12 ships over 2000 tons
> 
> So 4+4+4



Depends on the role.
If PN has contracted Tiger class or F-22P, then likely 4
If the AAW frigate displayed at IDEAS 2016, then 2 or 3

4 Milgem ASW corvette's aren't contracted yet.

So, 4 F-22P + 1 OHP + (2 to 4) Chinese frigates + possible 4 Milgem Ada = 11-13 frigates/corvette's in the medium term.

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 432441
> 
> 
> Jane’s Nov 2016 so perhaps 2+2


which mean it will be a new design .... not F-22(P)

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## Ahmet Pasha

Whats the number main battle oriented ships we have right now apart from FACs??

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## Tank131

The best case scenario would be some akim to the Type 057 frigate which @AZADPAKISTAN2009 was showing as 054c. This (by artist rendering, which turned out to be close to a model displayed at Ideas 2016) showed 32 cell vls in fron of the bridge, amd a 16 cell unit in front of the hangar at midship. In addition it had 2 ciws and PDMS mounted over the hangar. 4 of these would provide a huge boost to the PN, especially in the area of air defense. Midship vls could be loaded theoretically woth HQ-9A/B and the 32 cells in front with 32 - 128 medium range missiles, backed by 24 short range missiles from the PDMS and 2 ciws, It would be a beast of a ship.

But i think more likely to see a tiger class type (development of c28a which itself is derived from F-22p) or the Multi mission frigate (24 cells but 1500t). These would likely be medium ranged SAM equipped which is still far better than what PN has. 



Zarvan said:


> We have gotten lot of things from China janab so not fantasy world but ourselves won't want to get them for free. We would like to pay for the weapons. As for ship which ever ship it should have VLS for Cruise Missiles



I dont think China is going to just give these up vessels but a discount or long term soft loans maybe. Additionally vls for cruise missile is, as before, unlikely in vessels of these size. You need full fledged destroyer size vessels like 7000t+ to get large enough vls for both air defense amd land attack. If you must have LACM on these ships it would likely be in a dual use format (Land Attack and Antiship) where the missile would be canister fired from 2x2 launchers in place of standar AShMs for these sub 7000t size ship, especially for PN which desperately needs air defese to protect its true LACM ships (subs), the VLS equipped ships wpuld be better suited for SAMs.

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## War Thunder

Cornered Tiger said:


> Can u please name the that facility in Multan? Please



Are you an idiot or what?


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## CHI RULES

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Agree.
> Plus, if you all just noticed, in the past two decades, we haven't got the best which China had, it has always been their tier 2, 3 product that made into Pakistan.
> Now, is it the Pakistanis that don't want the best from China or is it the Chinese that don't offer their best is the question. But if it's the latter one, than forget any Destroyer or J11s, you are not even getting a decent air defence ship.
> The downsides of relying too much on one supplier, earlier it was U.S., now it's China.



Sir money talks, China is the supplier which is generally described the most liked supplier which can provide you much hi tech stuff with least strings. The only thing is nothing is free in this world you have to pay for every thing. If China is using/going to use Gawadar they will/shall pay Pakistan huge amounts for boarding and lodging along with freight. It is a mutually beneficial project. But on the other side the burden of security strictly lies on Pak shoulders , you cannot shift this burden on China shoulders. 

The one can check by travelling along side silk road from Abbotabad to Sust to observe what China has contributed with. The project was perhaps started many years back not now as claimed by NZ govt. Now the most of infrastructure is ready and directly financed/builded by our Chinese friends. But you cannot blame them for noy providing hi tech equipment. 
The J11s are themselves perhaps copy of Su 27 and many have explained that China is restricted to export them. The F22Ps are already having decent gadgets as per their costs, if PN requires still PN can pay and get at least medium range SAMs for them. Similarly for destroyers perhaps they are costly enough and not suitable for PN requirements due to cost issues. 

PN should go for medium weight frigate with maximum stealth features and capable Medium range SAMs and off course capable ASHM, SSM, and ASMs are must.

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## Basel

HRK said:


> which mean it will be a new design .... not F-22(P)



PN may not want to go with F-22P now as it does not add much to current capacity of PN.

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## Super Falcon

Pak navy Should consider nothing less than DDG 52 Because India has 3 aircraft carrier we need sufficient class of ship which atleast has potent air defence shield to save our other ships and our sea shores as well

Smallers types won't do much good for saving our shores

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## khanasifm

I will personally pass on message to chief, pm and the president that pdf is demanding nothing less than xyz 

I am sure they have no clue and this will help them getting additional loans, begging and they will have to obey  

  

On the lighter side

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## ziaulislam

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whats the number main battle oriented ships we have right now apart from FACs??


4 amazon class ex British ships(need to go ASAP), 4 F22 frigates and 1 OHP class firgate
was suppose to be 4+6 configuration but USA blocked further OHP

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## Tank131

Super Falcon said:


> Pak navy Should consider nothing less than DDG 52 Because India has 3 aircraft carrier we need sufficient class of ship which atleast has potent air defence shield to save our other ships and our sea shores as well
> 
> Smallers types won't do much good for saving our shores



Who is going to pay for that? PN is a defensive force, amd as such a medium to heavy frigate in the 4-5000t range is more sufficient. Something with 32-48 vls cells amd can equip 8 AShM/LACM and has room for PMDS/CIWS and anti-sub weaponry and equipment like a good ASW helicopter, torpedoes amd anti-sub rockets like RDC-32 or better as well as towed sonars ect. That plus a quad packed medium range missile coupled with a solid long range missile and electronics like AESA radars and good C4ISR capabilities is going to be a difficult thing for IN to deal with, even with their own very potent fleet which will include 2 carriers.

Such a frigate (with 48 cells as shown on some renderings of Type 057 would have the ability to field 16 long range SAMs (like HQ9A/B) giving a 200km reach, and back that with 128 medium ranged sams from 40-50km ranges. These would be backed 24 short range (9km) missiles from FL3000N, which would be backed by 2 CIWS. This ship would out gun any destroyer in IN with regards to air defense including the upcoming Visakhapatnam and current Kolkata class destroyers which carry 32 Barak 8 (90km). They wpuld overcome mpst saturation strikes and if armed with an antiship capable version of Babur it would out range any IN vessel in Antiship capabilities, although more likely it would be equipped with C-802A or Zarb (280km vs 300+ km).

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## FuturePAF

While PN decides what it can afford to get; it should work on upgrading the F-22P it already has to the a capability at least the level of the Type 26 Frigate of the royal navy. 

1. It can start by asking the Chinese develop a quad packed 25 km equivalent to the CAMM missile; packing even 8 cells with 4 missiles a piece and fitting them to the front of the F-22P would give decent defensive AAW then the current HQ-7 on there now. 
2. Next the PN can develop a mast similar to the Thales Imast but with a modern AESA like the Smart S MK. 2 on top to keep costs down. 
3. Remove the old Yagi Radar, and place 6 if not 8 cells for the CX-1 mach 3 class missiles to add a next level Antiship capability to the F-22P platform.
4. Upgrade the ASW capability with a towed array work on retrofitting the ships with ways to make it machinery as quiet as possible; propellers, engines, etc.
5. add in the needed electronics upgrades to maximize information sharing; C4ISR with other assets

It might cost tens of millions per ship, but in the end the PN will have modern capabilities while it waits for its finances and technology to improve, and hopefully the prices comes down on key technologies which might give the PN the edge like GaN Aesa.

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## CHI RULES

Tank131 said:


> Who is going to pay for that? PN is a defensive force, amd as such a medium to heavy frigate in the 4-5000t range is more sufficient. Something with 32-48 vls cells amd can equip 8 AShM/LACM and has room for PMDS/CIWS and anti-sub weaponry and equipment like a good ASW helicopter, torpedoes amd anti-sub rockets like RDC-32 or better as well as towed sonars ect. That plus a quad packed medium range missile coupled with a solid long range missile and electronics like AESA radars and good C4ISR capabilities is going to be a difficult thing for IN to deal with, even with their own very potent fleet which will include 2 carriers.
> 
> Such a frigate (with 48 cells as shown on some renderings of Type 057 would have the ability to field 16 long range SAMs (like HQ9A/B) giving a 200km reach, and back that with 128 medium ranged sams from 40-50km ranges. These would be backed 24 short range (9km) missiles from FL3000N, which would be backed by 2 CIWS. This ship would out gun any destroyer in IN with regards to air defense including the upcoming Visakhapatnam and current Kolkata class destroyers which carry 32 Barak 8 (90km). They wpuld overcome mpst saturation strikes and if armed with an antiship capable version of Babur it would out range any IN vessel in Antiship capabilities, although more likely it would be equipped with C-802A or Zarb (280km vs 300+ km).



Sir PN getting 8 subs from China which is remedy for all diseases for PN, the 11 potent subs certainly armed with 600 KM+ range Babur CM dual purpose for anti ship and surface attack role, shall be enough to keep enemy ACs at long ranges along with other heavy destroyers. The main face to face counter shall be between frigates and FACs along with naval jets.

You and others have pointed out rightly the SAM requirements of at least of Medium range.

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## Tank131

CHI RULES said:


> Sir PN getting 8 subs from China which is remedy for all diseases for PN, the 11 potent subs certainly armed with 600 KM+ range Babur CM dual purpose for anti ship and surface attack role, shall be enough to keep enemy ACs at long ranges along with other heavy destroyers. The main face to face counter shall be between frigates and FACs along with naval jets.
> 
> You and others have pointed out rightly the SAM requirements of at least of Medium range.



Not just medium range, but numbers of missiles needs to be high to overcome saturation attack.

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## khanasifm

Tank131 said:


> Not just medium range, but numbers of missiles needs to be high to overcome saturation attack.



Usually ships operate in pairs or in close vicinity in case help is needed so with good range missile can supplement each other 

16-32 is good number pn has no desire to operate outside of its aor or Arabian Sea


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Combination of a large ship , with a Local Stealth ship like Azmat class would do wonder
2 Ship Patrol Group

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## Awan68

How many construction berths does karachi ship yard has, that is how many ships can be constructed simultaneously?, anyone?


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## khanasifm

Awan68 said:


> How many construction berths does karachi ship yard has, that is how many ships can be constructed simultaneously?, anyone?



3


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## Awan68

khanasifm said:


> 3


That is bloody disgraceful, guess the new lift ordered to shift ships inland would increase the capability somewhat..


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## Bossman

Awan68 said:


> That is bloody disgraceful, guess the new lift ordered to shift ships inland would increase the capability somewhat..


13 ships of 7000 Tonnes simultaneously


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## Awan68

Bossman said:


> 13 ships of 7000 Tonnes simultaneously


After the lift is installed or are u talking about the current capacity?


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## syed_yusuf

Awan68 said:


> After the lift is installed or are u talking about the current capacity?



This should be after 2018 when upgrades takes place at KSEW

currently it is may be max 5 berths

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## Umar.farooq.9

My realistic future Navy for pakistan include 
12 conventional submarines all AIP propulsion(2subs for nuclear deterrence) 
If possible 2nuclear submarines with SLBM
14advanced multi mission frigates 
4 Corvettes 
8 to 10 missile boats 
8 Fast attack crafts 
1 squadron of p8 
2 squadrons of su35 or any other long range air craft with anti ship missiles 
And if we are lucky 2 destroyers


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## khanasifm

Awan68 said:


> That is bloody disgraceful, guess the new lift ordered to shift ships inland would increase the capability somewhat..



Check google map or earth [emoji290]


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## khanasifm

Still no news on the type from any sources ?? PN, Oem or Jane’s


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think as many users have stated in past it will be F22P (PLUS) or C28A Class _frigate which was designated for export by China as nations like Algeria/Bangladesh and even Pakistan have aquired this ship

However for CPEC we really need a Type 052 level 4-6 ships via Grant program for CPEC 

C28A







F22P 






It really will be interesting to see which Frigates have the Navy Choosen 


Ideally we need 6 Larger vessels for a Decisive Presence in Region
This is what generally the defence experts suggest, *specially for CPEC*

*Type 052 Class defence unit *



_


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## khanasifm

It will depend on the budget and the capability mix not wish list


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## khanasifm

F22p were less than 200 million a piece vs Turkish offer today with price tag of 250-300 and some of the system have to be imported like air defence missiles etc bottom line if one can get frigate with similar capability in same price why not but I guess pn knows what it wants and can afford


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## khanasifm

Which media are they quoting 


Chinese media said this is the first time that Pakistan confirmed the contracts and assumed that Pakistan is more likely to have purchased Chinese new type of frigates with a displacement of more than 4,000 tons and features of integrated mast and vertical launch system. 

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/pakistan-navy-to-purchase-frigates-from-china/

The new type with integrated mast is not type 54 


http://www.janes.com/article/69073/china-s-csoc-showcases-a-new-4-000-tonne-frigate

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> F22p were less than 200 million a piece vs Turkish offer today with price tag of 250-300 and some of the system have to be imported like air defence missiles etc bottom line if one can get frigate with similar capability in same price why not but I guess pn knows what it wants and can afford


It's worth remembering that the F-22P isn't equipped with the same standard of electronics as the MILGEM Ada or even the Chinese C28A. E.g. whereas the latter make use of the Thales SMART-S Mk2 phased-array radar, the F-22P uses legacy mechanically-steered system. If we had equipped the F-22P with comparable electronics, then I am very confident that the unit price would have rose from $175 m each to $225 m, easily. Likewise, if the PN is indeed going for the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate or the IDEAS frigate, then the price of each will not be less than $350-400 m. But if those are coming with APAR, passive OTH, VLS and LR-SAM, then that's a bargain as a similar Western ship would cost $600-750+ m each.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

8 Ships on Grant or Lease would be ideal to safe guard CPEC , how long is the chinese Lease on port 50-100 years?

Would make sense to get a 'Grant' / Lease for ships 6-8 for duration of Security needs






Need some confidence building Multiplier


It would make sense

Lease of 8 Ships would also be acceptable as it could be tied to Pakistan Navy's goals for Buy as you go process as Navy gets funds they can make payments on the final purchase etc
_*
"In order to protect CPEC we need 8 advance ships it is very simple equation"*_​


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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 8 Ships on Grant or Lease would be ideal to safe guard CPEC , how long is the chinese Lease on port 50-100 years?
> 
> Would make sense to get a 'Grant' / Lease for ships 6-8 for duration of Security needs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Need some confidence building Multiplier
> 
> 
> It would make sense
> 
> Lease of 8 Ships would also be acceptable as it could be tied to Pakistan Navy's goals for Buy as you go process as Navy gets funds they can make payments on the final purchase etc
> _*
> "In order to protect CPEC we need 8 advance ships it is very simple equation"*_​


no thank you
no grants


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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth remembering that the F-22P isn't equipped with the same standard of electronics as the MILGEM Ada or even the Chinese C28A. E.g. whereas the latter make use of the Thales SMART-S Mk2 phased-array radar, the F-22P uses legacy mechanically-steered system. If we had equipped the F-22P with comparable electronics, then I am very confident that the unit price would have rose from $175 m each to $225 m, easily. Likewise, if the PN is indeed going for the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate or the IDEAS frigate, then the price of each will not be less than $350-400 m. But if those are coming with APAR, passive OTH, VLS and LR-SAM, then that's a bargain as a similar Western ship would cost $600-750+ m each.



any idea why PN has not Install FL-3000 cIWS on their F-22P's and Azmat Class ?


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## Tank131

Starlord said:


> any idea why PN has not Install FL-3000 cIWS on their F-22P's and Azmat Class ?



Cost savings probably. I have long advocated that the main dual 23mm gun should be replaced by a CIWS like AK630 and that the current CIWS be replaced by an 18-24 cell FL-3000N giving the ship dual layer (albeit low ranged) air defense.

The 4000t CSOC frigate (im still calling it 057 cuz it looks very similar to the rendition of 057) is the best option for Pakistan if it is available. Such a ship could be capable of fleet level defense (some renditions have even shown it with the 16 cells at midship in addition to 32 in front). Its sensor range if anywhere close to SAMPSON radar would put it in the 350-400km range giving a huge awareness to the fleet. Between these and AWACS the PN would have a great situation awareness of the entire eez.

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## kingQamaR

Sooner or later China will give Pakistan destroyers too neutralise India advantage . Not for CPEC . 
This is what China has been doing in other areas too in helping and strengthening Pakistan . It is how China does things to rebalances things . And to contain India bogged down with Pakistan


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## YeBeWarned

Tank131 said:


> Cost savings probably. I have long advocated that the main dual 23mm gun should be replaced by a CIWS like AK630 and that the current CIWS be replaced by an 18-24 cell FL-3000N giving the ship dual layer (albeit low ranged) air defense.
> 
> The 4000t CSOC frigate (im still calling it 057 cuz it looks very similar to the rendition of 057) is the best option for Pakistan if it is available. Such a ship could be capable of fleet level defense (some renditions have even shown it with the 16 cells at midship in addition to 32 in front). Its sensor range if anywhere close to SAMPSON radar would put it in the 350-400km range giving a huge awareness to the fleet. Between these and AWACS the PN would have a great situation awareness of the entire eez.



what would be the cost of Installing 18 cell Fl-3000 ? i mean we have Azmat class FAC which is stealth Design but without any Air defense .. which is very weird to me , even F-22P's does not have it ..


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## FuturePAF

Starlord said:


> what would be the cost of Installing 18 cell Fl-3000 ? i mean we have Azmat class FAC which is stealth Design but without any Air defense .. which is very weird to me , even F-22P's does not have it ..



If the Azmat class is upgraded similar to the Greek Roussen class FAC it would have a decent air defense (Fl-3000 on the fan tail, aand upgrade the maain gun with a saab 40 mm main gun), the only different should be adding a Imast 100 mast to allow the ship to be a patrol boat with decent 360 degree situational awareness

the ship launch system should be moved ahead of the missile launchers as it is used intermittently, but the air defense missile in a constant always armed and ready mode

http://www.naval-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/09/2_boat.jpg


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Having 8 ships with 60 Missiles on it each better option , looking at 500 missiles protective umberella (CPEC grant/lease for 20 years)

Can't substitute it with small ships

Small ships are useful no doubt and have their impact but you can't just depend on small ships for your long term objectives

The Azmat class what it represents has made improvements and it is a nice program
but getting larger ships is more about the long term big picture around stability

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## Awan68

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 8 Ships on Grant or Lease would be ideal to safe guard CPEC , how long is the chinese Lease on port 50-100 years?
> 
> Would make sense to get a 'Grant' / Lease for ships 6-8 for duration of Security needs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Need some confidence building Multiplier
> 
> 
> It would make sense
> 
> Lease of 8 Ships would also be acceptable as it could be tied to Pakistan Navy's goals for Buy as you go process as Navy gets funds they can make payments on the final purchase etc
> _*
> "In order to protect CPEC we need 8 advance ships it is very simple equation"*_​


the lease is of 40 yrs and no we dont need ships on grant or whatever, its humiliating, we will buy whatever is required, if we can sign a 5 bil deal for subs than surely we can come up with 3.2 bil for 8 surface ships..


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The good thing about frigates and submarines is that recapitalization or replacing is not needed for 40-50 years at a time. So that investment of $2.4 billion for acquiring eight good frigates would last a while, the key is to select the ships that are the most cost-effective to operate over those many decades.

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## Tank131

I also still advocate trying to get the Adelaides from Australia. They should still be able to serve for another 10-15 years at least.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I don't think getting 8 Type052 ships from China would count as humilitation because these ships are actually acting to protect national interest for China / Pakistan in oceans

The 8 Ships should be supplimented by Local Azmat Class (Plus) project

We have a Port agreement with china for 50-100 years , and thus it makes sense to grow the joint collaboration on Sea security and that can only be done by *8 High quality surface ships *


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> I also still advocate trying to get the Adelaides from Australia. They should still be able to serve for another 10-15 years at least.


I think the baseline EEZ and SLOC patrol needs will be met by the Swift Corvettes and Damen OPVs. With those now in the pipeline, the PN's focus would have to be on war-fighting (i.e. AShW, ASW and AAW) ships.

Personally, my dream scenario would be to have 4 of those 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates with HQ-9 (+ APAR & OTR) and 8 2,350-ton LF-2400 from Turkey with Umkhonto EIR. That or 6-8 of the 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Tank131 said:


> I also still advocate trying to get the Adelaides from Australia. They should still be able to serve for another 10-15 years at least.



That platform is not bad but just past price the Computer system and weapons system are all outdated


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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the baseline EEZ and SLOC patrol needs will be met by the Swift Corvettes and Damen OPVs. With those now in the pipeline, the PN's focus would have to be on war-fighting (i.e. AShW, ASW and AAW) ships.
> 
> Personally, my dream scenario would be to have 4 of those 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates with HQ-9 (+ APAR & OTR) and 8 2,350-ton LF-2400 from Turkey with Umkhonto EIR. That or 6-8 of the 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates.



i still have a feeling that Ada will come but without the RAM-2 Launcher


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> i still have a feeling that Ada will come but without the RAM-2 Launcher


Honestly, with the Swift Corvette and Damen OPV on order, there's zero need for the MILGEM Ada. Yes it has ASW, but you don't necessarily require a ship as complex and costly as the Ada for just that one additional role. Besides, the Swift Corvettes can carry ASW torpedo tubes too, but likely cost a fraction of the Ada. 

If a Turkish ship is still sought (big 'IF'), then it would be much more sensible to pick the LF-2400. It's basically just the Ada with a 9 m stretched hull, CODAD propulsion and 16-cell VLS. It's also just 50 tons heavier. 

In fact, this wouldn't even be the first time the PN would pick-up a new design ... it had bought three (i.e. F-22P + Fleet Tanker + Swift Corvette) new designs in the past 10 years. Decent AAW capabilities don't cost that much ... a Saab Sea Giraffe radar costs $12.5 m, while 16 Umkhonto IR around $15-20 m in total. Good subsystem and weapon selection could keep the LF-2400's unit cost within $250 m.

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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, with the Swift Corvette and Damen OPV on order, there's zero need for the MILGEM Ada. Yes it has ASW, but you don't necessarily require a ship as complex and costly as the Ada for just that one additional role. Besides, the Swift Corvettes can carry ASW torpedo tubes too, but likely cost a fraction of the Ada.
> 
> If a Turkish ship is still sought (big 'IF'), then it would be much more sensible to pick the LF-2400. It's basically just the Ada with a 9 m stretched hull, CODAD propulsion and 16-cell VLS. It's also just 50 tons heavier.
> 
> In fact, this wouldn't even be the first time the PN would pick-up a new design ... it had bought three (i.e. F-22P + Fleet Tanker + Swift Corvette) new designs in the past 10 years. Decent AAW capabilities don't cost that much ... a Saab Sea Giraffe radar costs $12.5 m, while 16 Umkhonto IR around $15-20 m in total. Good subsystem and weapon selection could keep the LF-2400's unit cost within $250 m.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 435973



The deal for ADA suppose to be signed by June or July this year but since than we haven't heard anything .. maybe they are opting for LF-2400 that that is why coming up for financial deals are taking time .. ? but yea i agree its a big IF .. and who knows that the Turkish deal is off, that is why PN is going for Chinese Frigates + 2 75 Meter Swift ship Corvette .. with 4 Swifships i don't see any Possible role of ADA or even LF-2400 besides supporting the F-22P's .

by the way the Model you posted above does not have VLS .... why ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

You know I always wonder why don't we just use the steel from steeles mills for defence products like ships and save on imports ?

Salaries are paid to worker each year , and nothing is produced , so might as well ask the people to make something like metal sheets or hulls for ships !! The Country/Nation is already paying bill for Pakistan Steeles Mills might as well build something like Corvettes or OPV

We pay salaries to like 10,000 workers to 20,000 workers in Steeles mills and the plant is not producing any goods , so my suggestion is that steels mills be converted into a Military Steel Manufacturing at leaste we can make useful stuff. This plant has been running 10% efficiency might as well convert it to a full Military Steel Production and tie it up with our Defence corporations


Steel Plates for Ship construction / Hull design beems and nuts and bolts 

Fence for border closure across afghtanistan/pakistan border 

Steel / metal products for Tanks / APC
Build steel halls for busses / Trucks (import engine/transmission etc)

If the state is paying salaries anyways might as well get something in return even if it is a defence product


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> The deal for ADA suppose to be signed by June or July this year but since than we haven't heard anything .. maybe they are opting for LF-2400 that that is why coming up for financial deals are taking time .. ? but yea i agree its a big IF .. and who knows that the Turkish deal is off, that is why PN is going for Chinese Frigates + 2 75 Meter Swift ship Corvette .. with 4 Swifships i don't see any Possible role of ADA or even LF-2400 besides supporting the F-22P's .
> 
> by the way the Model you posted above does not have VLS .... why ?


The only reason why I don't think the Turkish deal is off is that it was being negotiated all the way up to May of this year. It is incredibly unlikely that the PN could cut brand new warship deals in China and the US - including the issue of finance - in a period of a few months. I suspect all of these deals were being negotiated at the same time, so it's possible they were planned together.

As for the role the LF-2400 could play ... it would be to support the F-22P in a war fighting role. The Damen OPV and Swift Corvette are optimal for guarding the EEZ and SLOC from peacetime maritime threats, such as crime, piracy, etc and supporting the A2/AD need in littoral waters. OTOH the F-22P and LF-2400, esp. if they're equipped with VLS-based AAW, can help guard the SLOC from IN blockade attempts and/or escort Pakistani merchant ships to sustain trade between Karachi/Gwadar and the Arab Gulf/Africa. 

LF-2400's VLS:















AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> You know I always wonder why don't we just use the steel from steeles mills for defence products like ships and save on imports ?
> 
> Salaries are paid to worker each year , and nothing is produced , so might as well ask the people to make something like metal sheets or hulls for ships !! The Country/Nation is already paying bill for Pakistan Steeles Mills might as well build something like Corvettes or OPV


It requires investment in forging high-quality steel for shipbuilding. It has to be done, but unfortunately not a lot of emphasis was given to indigenous sourcing of critical goods, e.g. high-grade steel, gas turbines, engines, etc. Modern frigates such as the LF-2400 also require composite materials for the superstructure (to lower RCS), so there needs to be investment in that are as well (worth doing since they intend to make a 5th-gen fighter and MALE UAV in Pakistan as well).

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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> You know I always wonder why don't we just use the steel from steeles mills for defence products like ships and save on imports ?
> 
> Salaries are paid to worker each year , and nothing is produced , so might as well ask the people to make something like metal sheets or hulls for ships !! The Country/Nation is already paying bill for Pakistan Steeles Mills might as well build something like Corvettes or OPV
> 
> We pay salaries to like 10,000 workers to 20,000 workers in Steeles mills and the plant is not producing any goods , so my suggestion is that steels mills be converted into a Military Steel Manufacturing at leaste we can make useful stuff. This plant has been running 10% efficiency might as well convert it to a full Military Steel Production and tie it up with our Defence corporations
> 
> 
> Steel Plates for Ship construction / Hull design beems and nuts and bolts
> 
> Fence for border closure across afghtanistan/pakistan border
> 
> Steel / metal products for Tanks / APC
> Build steel halls for busses / Trucks (import engine/transmission etc)
> 
> If the state is paying salaries anyways might as well get something in return even if it is a defence product


there is huge requirement for steel not just in defence but it cost more to make steel as its too high corruption and no body dares to do anything ....just listen to zardari explaining his point of view "who dares going after me, NAB key kia oqat hein"


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the baseline EEZ and SLOC patrol needs will be met by the Swift Corvettes and Damen OPVs. With those now in the pipeline, the PN's focus would have to be on war-fighting (i.e. AShW, ASW and AAW) ships.
> 
> Personally, my dream scenario would be to have 4 of those 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates with HQ-9 (+ APAR & OTR) and 8 2,350-ton LF-2400 from Turkey with Umkhonto EIR. That or 6-8 of the 4,000+ ton Chinese frigates.



I think for me, PN would go for the Adelaides, fit CAMM or K-SAAM in place of the ESSM, then get a Sylver A43 for Alamghir with CAMM/K-SAAM, giving 4 OHPs. Put all 4 through the GENESIS upgrade including SMART S mk 2. Have the 4 4000t CSOC Frigates with HQ9 and Dk-10 or quadpacked chinese missile if available. Upgrade the F-22P with the SMART S mk2 and get 8-16 cell VLS (with CAMM or a quad packed chinese missile if ready) for them if possible, if not exchange FM-90s for Umkhonto ir/er when available. Add a 24 cell FL-3000N above the hangar.

This gives 12 large surface combatants all with reasonable to good air defense (each more capable in air defense than any IN frigate/destroyer). All would have reasonable to good ASW & AShW capabilities as well. The OHP will give the PN a 15-20 year stop gap, allowing it to get more modern and capable ships at its own pace.

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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> i still have a feeling that Ada will come but without the RAM-2 Launcher



Ada can be installed with Phalanx instead of RAM. Pakistan has some 7 units, according to a CRS report.



Tank131 said:


> I think for me, PN would go for the Adelaides, fit CAMM or K-SAAM in place of the ESSM, then get a Sylver A43 for Alamghir with CAMM/K-SAAM, giving 4 OHPs. Put all 4 through the GENESIS upgrade including SMART S mk 2. Have the 4 4000t CSOC Frigates with HQ9 and Dk-10 or quadpacked chinese missile if available. Upgrade the F-22P with the SMART S mk2 and get 8-16 cell VLS (with CAMM or a quad packed chinese missile if ready) for them if possible, if not exchange FM-90s for Umkhonto ir/er when available. Add a 24 cell FL-3000N above the hangar.
> 
> This gives 12 large surface combatants all with reasonable to good air defense (each more capable in air defense than any IN frigate/destroyer). All would have reasonable to good ASW & AShW capabilities as well. The OHP will give the PN a 15-20 year stop gap, allowing it to get more modern and capable ships at its own pace.



Acquiring Adelaide class frigates probably requires US permission which is difficult to come by.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, with the Swift Corvette and Damen OPV on order, there's zero need for the MILGEM Ada. Yes it has ASW, but you don't necessarily require a ship as complex and costly as the Ada for just that one additional role. Besides, the Swift Corvettes can carry ASW torpedo tubes too, but likely cost a fraction of the Ada.



Damen 1900t OPV doesn't count in A2/AD except for SAR. Swiftships corvettes can take the ASW role if PN manages to get at least 4 ships (ideally 6-8). 

I imagine those guarding the littoral waters in wartime from any submarine which manages to sneak in. The good thing is it can data-link with PN MPA's and other aircraft.

I hope PN signs for LF-2400, which is worth the money spent.

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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> Ada can be installed with Phalanx instead of RAM. Pakistan has some 7 units, according to a CRS report.



but Ada will not bring anything new to the table which Swiftship 75 Meter Corvette won't .. so why bother to buy another similar size Corvette ? buying 2 Swift ship corvette with a possible order of 2 more will be good, for Turks we have LF-2400 Light frigate option , which make more sense if you compare it with Ada .. and Planx is not as good as Ram-2 or FL-3000N does it ?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin can Damen OPV's 1800 support Planx or Chinese FL-3000N ?


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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> but Ada will not bring anything new to the table which Swiftship 75 Meter Corvette won't .. so why bother to buy another similar size Corvette ? buying 2 Swift ship corvette with a possible order of 2 more will be good, for Turks we have LF-2400 Light frigate option , which make more sense if you compare it with Ada .. and Planx is not as good as Ram-2 or FL-3000N does it ?
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin can Damen OPV's 1800 support Planx or Chinese FL-3000N ?



Phalanx is a CIWS for protection against AShM. It's good for this purpose.

Damen OPV's can fit Phalanx but are unlikely to get any. They are 'OPV' after all.


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## ziaulislam

Who is paying for swift ships...how did PN bypassed everything and end ip with swift


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## monitor

Tank131 said:


> I think for me, PN would go for the Adelaides, fit CAMM or K-SAAM in place of the ESSM, then get a Sylver A43 for Alamghir with CAMM/K-SAAM, giving 4 OHPs. Put all 4 through the GENESIS upgrade including SMART S mk 2. Have the 4 4000t CSOC Frigates with HQ9 and Dk-10 or quadpacked chinese missile if available. Upgrade the F-22P with the SMART S mk2 and get 8-16 cell VLS (with CAMM or a quad packed chinese missile if ready) for them if possible, if not exchange FM-90s for Umkhonto ir/er when available. Add a 24 cell FL-3000N above the hangar.
> 
> This gives 12 large surface combatants all with reasonable to good air defense (each more capable in air defense than any IN frigate/destroyer). All would have reasonable to good ASW & AShW capabilities as well. The OHP will give the PN a 15-20 year stop gap, allowing it to get more modern and capable ships at its own pace.




What you are suggest is getting western component which is sanctions prone and expensive. I think getting Turkish Chinese frigate and sub system best along with some western platform if available .


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Here is Pakistan's circumstances:*

We can make a Ship yard anywhere across 1000km shoreline
We have 100,000 or 200,000 Engineers who can work on building ship by hand
We have a 1970's steeles Mills one of largest assets in Pakistan sitting "idle" every employee gets salary by government
The mills can make every part imaginable for ship building
Workers will collect salaries, regardless you build something or not , the money will go in their pockets. They still collect salaries even if they do nothing now

If state , government is paying workers salaries , build 100 meter ships minus weapons systems add the weapons system when budget gets approval








It seems we have all the pieces of the puzzle, just need a vision that yes , we will activate the workforce to build something instead of just sitting idle waiting for someone from outside to come fix things

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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> Phalanx is a CIWS for protection against AShM. It's good for this purpose.
> 
> Damen OPV's can fit Phalanx but are unlikely to get any. They are 'OPV' after all.



PN OpV's will be patrolling the extended EEZ , so adding up a Planlanx wont hurt them right ?


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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> PN OpV's will be patrolling the extended EEZ , so adding up a Planlanx wont hurt them right ?



Phalanx is anti-anti ship missile weapon. Who is going to fire AShM's on those OPV's? The pirates ?


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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> Phalanx is anti-anti ship missile weapon. Who is going to fire AShM's on those OPV's? The pirates ?



In war time they can be used for Escorting the Cargo ships and guard other ships .


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## Basel

Gryphon said:


> Phalanx is a CIWS for protection against AShM. It's good for this purpose.
> 
> Damen OPV's can fit Phalanx but are unlikely to get any. They are 'OPV' after all.



When you are facing threat of Supersonic AShMs then you will like to engage them from far from ship and CIWS (Phalanx) is not good for that as even after hitting Supersonic AShMs at 2-3 km the missile remains can cause damage to ship due to it's speed/kinetic energy.


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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> In war time they can be used for Escorting the Cargo ships and guard other ships .



An OPV armed with a few guns and Phalanx escorting ships? It has no AShW and SHORAD capabilities to begin with.


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## Tank131

monitor said:


> What you are suggest is getting western component which is sanctions prone and expensive. I think getting Turkish Chinese frigate and sub system best along with some western platform if available .



No doubt the OHP are sanctions prone...However PN can get spare for OHP on the open market and can store spares for years. The benefit for PN is they would be extremely effective stopgaps...they only need to buy PN 15 years which it can do. Then replace them with Turkis/Chinese /Pakistani vessels. They will give very cheap and high end vessels quickly (2-3 years for 3) and can be acquired much like Alamghir was (hot transfer where all you pay is the transfer cost)cuz otherwise they will be scuttled. $150M for these vessels plus around $50M upgrade to all 4 OHP should make all of them equivalent to the G-class and will be a great bulwark against the IN.


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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> An OPV armed with a few guns and Phalanx escorting ships? It has no AShW and SHORAD capabilities to begin with.



deep in Pakistan coastal territory you need a agile ship it does not need to be armed heavily cause the major cargo will be coming from the middle east you just have care from gwadar to karachi


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## Sheraz Patriot

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth remembering that the F-22P isn't equipped with the same standard of electronics as the MILGEM Ada or even the Chinese C28A. E.g. whereas the latter make use of the Thales SMART-S Mk2 phased-array radar, the F-22P uses legacy mechanically-steered system. If we had equipped the F-22P with comparable electronics, then I am very confident that the unit price would have rose from $175 m each to $225 m, easily. Likewise, if the PN is indeed going for the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate or the IDEAS frigate, then the price of each will not be less than $350-400 m. But if those are coming with APAR, passive OTH, VLS and LR-SAM, then that's a bargain as a similar Western ship would cost $600-750+ m each.


as per Wikipedia china offered three advance type 54 with vls to the Thai nav for approximately one billion USD.


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## Gryphon

*China’s Navy Deploys  Three-Tier Defensive Weapons*

July 1, 2013
_By James C. Bussert_

China is adopting a multitier shipborne weapon system approach that flies in the face of the approach usually taken by modern navies. Instead of building a single design for weapons systems that is adapted for different ships, the Chinese Navy has developed specialized systems that perform similar functions on different-sized vessels.

Traditionally, nations that sell naval weapon systems field a given design applicable to a wide variety of ships. For the U.S. Navy, the Mk 41 vertical launching system (VLS) has been the standard missile launcher for U.S. surface combatants and for foreign military sales. Originally, three sizes of Mk 41 modules were developed: the large “strike” size—commonly referred to by the overall designation Mk 41—that holds Tomahawk cruise missiles installed on cruisers and destroyers; a middle “tactical” size; and a “self-defense” quad pack for foreign customers with smaller ships.

In addition to these three types, four variants of the topside shorter-celled Mk 48 VLS have been exported to six foreign navies but are not used by the U.S. Navy. The six-barrel 20-millimeter Phalanx Gatling gun close-in weapon system (CIWS) is fitted to a majority of U.S. Navy ships and is exported widely to allied nations. A third defensive system is the multinational Mk 116 rolling airframe missile (RAM) design, which is deployed in the Mk 49 21-cell launchers used by six nations, including the U.S. Navy. A smaller SeaRAM with an 11-cell launcher in a Phalanx frame is replacing the 20-millimeter Gatling gun.

Recently, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) not only developed its own versions of VLS, CIWS and RAM, but it also has fielded three different versions of each. This hints at a unique multitier weapon system design philosophy. No other nation has expended the monetary and engineering resources to field three different variations of a given weapon system for one service. Nor can most other nations afford to do so, considering the monetary, development and production costs. And, logistical support and training costs must be considered as well.

The RAM point-defense missile is the most obvious and least complicated example of shipborne standardization. The original RAM design has been developed jointly by the United States and Germany since 1976. The Block 0 RAM missile is 2.8 meters long, uses radio frequency (RF) midcourse guidance and infrared (IR) terminal engagement and has a 9-kilometer range.

A Chinese copy was introduced at the 2008 Zhuhai Airshow with the export missile designation FL-3000N. The PLAN designation is HHQ-10. The Chinese missile launcher designation HQ stands for Hong Qi, which means Red Flag. Naval launchers are “H” for Hai, for naval, or HHQ, which means Naval Red Flag. The HHQ-10 has RF midcourse guidance and passive IR terminal guidance. Both missiles have two RF horns protruding from the nose. The advertised statistics were a 9-kilometer range versus subsonic targets; a 6-kilometer range versus supersonic targets; and a minimum range of 500 meters with a missile speed of Mach 2.5.

The FL 3000N was only 2 meters in length. The shorter missile would have less room for its rocket, which could mean less range than the RIM 116. This is supported by the FL-2000 missile shown at the 2003 Paris airshow, which had a minimum range of 800 meters and maximum range of 8 kilometers. Minimum altitude was 4 meters and maximum altitude was 8 kilometers. These figures are different from the FL-3000N.

The first Chinese HHQ-10 design appeared on the weapon trial ship 892 in 2010, and it had 24 cells. Another 18-cell version of the HHQ-10 appeared on the carrier Varyag in 2011, which was renamed Liaoning upon commissioning in September 2012. A third launcher variant with only eight cells appeared on the new Type 056 corvette design at Huang Shipyard in 2012.

Rather than have a standard HHQ-10 launcher design for all vessels, China developed three different designs for different-sized vessels. Although it conflicts with the three-level concept, the fact that a fourth HHQ-10 launcher with 15 cells appeared in January 2012 at the Zhuhai Airshow in China only makes an even stronger case for four Chinese multiple weapon variations. Whereas the first three RAM versions each had a unique base platform for the missile cells, the 15-cell launcher shares the same base foundation as the eight-cell RAM. It would be possible for the 15- and 18-cell designs to share foundations, but the newer eight-cell design must be superior to the earlier 18- or 24-cell designs.

The first two Chinese Gatling CIWS clearly were copies of Russian and Dutch designs. The Chinese copy of the Soviet seven-barrel 30-millimeter AK-630 first appeared on the Type 054 frigate in 2003 and subsequently on the Type 022 guided missile patrol boat and the Type 071 amphibious assault ship. China modified the Dutch Goalkeeper CIWS for the 052B, 052C and 051C destroyers and designated it as H/PJ-12, or Type 730 in the West.

The Goalkeeper CIWS utilized the U.S. 30-millimeter GAU-8 Gatling gun. Dutch designers evidently preferred the 30-millimeter gun over the 20-millimeter Phalanx gun. Chinese engineers increased the Goalkeeper firing rate from 4,200 rounds per minute (RPM) to 4,600-5,800 RPM and replaced the Dutch tracking and search radars with their Type EFR-1 radar and OFC-1 electro-optic director. These two versions would seem sufficient to meet all PLAN CIWS needs, but a surprise came when a Type 1130 CIWS with 11 rotating barrels appeared on the Liaoning carrier in 2012. It has a noticeably bulkier chassis to handle the stresses of an increased firing rate of 9,000 to 10,000 RPM.

So, three different CIWS designs are being produced and fielded on ships. By contrast, the U.S. Navy has retained the lighter 20-millimeter Phalanx design for 20 years, with performance upgrades. It is possible that the AK630 and Type 730 CIWS would not have a heavier Type 1130 added if the high-value carrier had not required maximum protection from the numerous air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missiles it would need to counter. It also is possible the PLAN approach is not an intended Chinese three-level design, but just a result of imports—except for the spectacular 11-barrel version, which was a planned Chinese project.

Two Chinese VLS designs currently are designated HHQ-9 on the 052C and HHQ-16 on the 054A frigate. This does not include the Russian SA-N-20 VLS on the two 051C Luzhou air defense destroyers for the North Fleet. Western experts expected the Chinese VLS to be a clone of Soviet and/or U.S. existing fielded launchers. At first glance it would appear China copied the Soviet circular eight-cell S-300 launcher. Yet the HHQ-9 does not rotate below deck cells with only one hatch, but instead has separate hatches that open above each of the six cells, such as in the Mk 41. However, unlike the Mk 41, the HHQ-9 is cold-launched, as is the Russian S-300 missile after which it is modeled. So the HHQ-9 VLS is a unique Chinese adaptation of the Russian design.

The HHQ-16 that appeared on the upgraded 054 frigates designated 054A has rectangular-shaped VLS modules and hatches, and it very much resembles the U.S. Mk 41. The HHQ-16 essentially is a vertically launched version of the SA-N-7B with a 50-kilometer range that uses the associated copy of the Russian MR-90 tracking radar. The third example is still in design, and conflicting reports exist about which ship will be the first to have the new Chinese “universal” VLS launcher installed.

The launcher may have been tested on test ship 891 and installed on the Type 052D guided missile destroyer (DDG). This approach is complicated by Soviet VLS designs that, along with the American Mk 41 VLS design, have a major impact on the Chinese VLS designs.

While China is very secretive about its new weapon system details, open literature known as Guo-jia Jun-yong Biao-zhun (GJB), which translates to “National Military Standard,” gives indications of technology directions. These military standards usually focus on common hull, mechanical and electric topics, but GJB 5860-2006 describes a very interesting subject. The title of this specification is “surface ship missile universal vertical launcher general requirements.” It states the VLS will launch four different types of missiles: anti-aircraft, anti-surface-ship, antisubmarine and land attack cruise missiles. Additionally, the VLS can handle three sizes of launch cells.

The cell length or depth is up to 9 meters (29.5 feet) for large missiles, up to 7 meters (22.9 feet) for medium size and up to 3.3 meters (10.8 feet) in length for small missiles. The eight compartments or cells each can hold a single missile, although a requirement also exists for the smaller cell to hold up to four missiles, such as the U.S. Navy’s quad pack arrangement for the Evolved Sea Sparrow missile. The size of each launch cell is 850 millimeters square (33.45 inches square).

The universal VLS can cold launch missiles, such as the HHQ-9, but it also can hot launch missiles such as the HHQ-16. However, unlike the Mk 41-type VLS on the Type 054A frigate that has visible exhaust vents between the launch cell rows, the universal VLS employs a concentric canister launch approach with exhaust vent paths within each launch cell.

The universal VLS on 052D, which was just launched in October 2012, may contain the DH-10 anti-carrier missile rather than the topside two cell launcher tubes on deck as on test ship 892. The two-cell launcher could be a backfit to the 052C series. Jane’s Strategic Weapon Systems 2010 describes the DH-10 diameter as 0.75 meters (29.5 inches) and length as 7.2 meters (23.6 feet), which is different from Chinese websites that list a 0.68 meter diameter and length of 8.3 meters. These dimensions probably include the booster. Either set of dimensions should fit in the large cell with room to spare. Some room in the cell must be allowed for the hot rocket exhaust vent to channel rocket flame out the top.

One key fact about this Chinese universal VLS launcher is its similarity to the new U.S. Mk 57 peripheral VLS currently being introduced on the U.S. Navy’s DDG 1000 Zumwalt class. Both have hot and cold launch capable cells, but the Mk 57 does not have three different module depths. All Mk 57 modules are 14.2 feet deep (4.3 meters), with module width of 7.25 feet (2.2 meters) and canister length of 283 inches (7.19 meters) and canister width of 28 inches (711 millimeters).

Compared with the Mk 57 VLS, the Chinese universal VLS can launch much larger diameter and longer missiles. The GJB on the Chinese VLS was published in 2006 while the Mk 57 still was in development. The design timelines basically are in parallel, as are the first ship install milestones. So, the prior five or more year lag from Chinese to Western new weapon designs no longer exists for VLS.

No indication exists yet of a formal PLAN doctrine advocating three levels of a given weapon system. Also, China might have copied the three-size U.S. Mk 41 design just for the PLAN and not for export. Yet, other navies do not support such a duplicative weapon design policy across weapon lines unique to the Chinese navy.

_James C. Bussert, employed at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren, Virginia, is the co-author of “People’s Liberation Army Navy Combat Systems Technology, 1949-2010.” The opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect the views of the U.S. Defense Department or the U.S. Navy.
_
China’s Navy Deploys  Three-Tier Defensive Weapons | afcea.org


Excellent piece on Chinese naval weapons development.

Seems that the CSOC frigate displayed at IDEAS 2016 was offered with this new 7m VLS. That means MR-SAM DK-10 or LY-80N (if fitted with FCR for SARH missile) + LACM/AShM but no HHQ-9 (if it's 6.8m long without booster).

The model displayed at LIMA 2017 is capable of firing HHQ-16 which suggests it uses the older VLS (as on Type 054A).

@Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Blue Marlin @Tank131

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only reason why I don't think the Turkish deal is off is that it was being negotiated all the way up to May of this year. It is incredibly unlikely that the PN could cut brand new warship deals in China and the US - including the issue of finance - in a period of a few months. I suspect all of these deals were being negotiated at the same time, so it's possible they were planned together.
> .


ok may be the damen OPV but where did the swift frigates came from...
why negotiate 2 exactly similar patrol vessel with 2 vessels each only...


----------



## Basel

Tank131 said:


> No doubt the OHP are sanctions prone...However PN can get spare for OHP on the open market and can store spares for years. The benefit for PN is they would be extremely effective stopgaps...they only need to buy PN 15 years which it can do. Then replace them with Turkis/Chinese /Pakistani vessels. They will give very cheap and high end vessels quickly (2-3 years for 3) and can be acquired much like Alamghir was (hot transfer where all you pay is the transfer cost)cuz otherwise they will be scuttled. $150M for these vessels plus around $50M upgrade to all 4 OHP should make all of them equivalent to the G-class and will be a great bulwark against the IN.



Why PN take long painful route to get and operate ships from US when there are other good options are available.


----------



## Gryphon

ziaulislam said:


> ok may be the damen OPV but where did the swift frigates came from...
> why negotiate 2 exactly similar patrol vessel with 2 vessels each only...



Swiftships 75m corvette can be armed with 4 AShM's and ASW torpedo. Visit Swiftships website and see the 3D view (and where the AShM launchers are placed). It has reduced RCS than what they were offering few years ago as 75m OPV.

Damen OPV will be armed with few guns only.


----------



## CHI RULES

Gryphon said:


> Swiftships 75m corvette can be armed with 4 AShM's and ASW torpedo. Visit Swiftships website and see the 3D view (and where the AShM launchers are placed). It has reduced RCS than what they were offering few years ago as 75m OPV.
> 
> Damen OPV will be armed with few guns only.


Sir it is confirmed that Damen OPV shall have only guns?


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## ziaulislam

Gryphon said:


> Swiftships 75m corvette can be armed with 4 AShM's and ASW torpedo. Visit Swiftships website and see the 3D view (and where the AShM launchers are placed). It has reduced RCS than what they were offering few years ago as 75m OPV.
> 
> Damen OPV will be armed with few guns only.


we were recently denied harpoons, and RAM i doubt it
thats the reason why swift makes no sense, i wount be surprised if the news was inaccurate


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## YeBeWarned

ziaulislam said:


> we were recently denied harpoons, and RAM i doubt it
> thats the reason why swift makes no sense, i wount be surprised if the news was inaccurate



when did that happen ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> we were recently denied harpoons, and RAM i doubt it
> thats the reason why swift makes no sense, i wount be surprised if the news was inaccurate


The news is directly from Swiftships' CEO (via two different news outlets at different times):

*Mr. Shah* reported a healthy backorder volume at the main Morgan City yard, with production underway on projects, including up to four 35m [115ft] FPVs (fast patrol vessels) for Bahrain, and *two 75m corvettes for the Pakistan Navy.* “_Further, we're under LOR [letters of request] for additional PBs (patrol boats), FPVs, and CPCs (coastal patrol craft) from several navies around the globe,_" he said.

http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/15-maritime/2206-swiftships-strengthening-its-global-presence.html







https://issuu.com/newwavemedia/docs/201708


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780466354491195392


Gryphon said:


> *China’s Navy Deploys  Three-Tier Defensive Weapons*
> 
> July 1, 2013
> _By James C. Bussert_
> 
> China is adopting a multitier shipborne weapon system approach that flies in the face of the approach usually taken by modern navies. Instead of building a single design for weapons systems that is adapted for different ships, the Chinese Navy has developed specialized systems that perform similar functions on different-sized vessels.
> 
> Traditionally, nations that sell naval weapon systems field a given design applicable to a wide variety of ships. For the U.S. Navy, the Mk 41 vertical launching system (VLS) has been the standard missile launcher for U.S. surface combatants and for foreign military sales. Originally, three sizes of Mk 41 modules were developed: the large “strike” size—commonly referred to by the overall designation Mk 41—that holds Tomahawk cruise missiles installed on cruisers and destroyers; a middle “tactical” size; and a “self-defense” quad pack for foreign customers with smaller ships.
> 
> In addition to these three types, four variants of the topside shorter-celled Mk 48 VLS have been exported to six foreign navies but are not used by the U.S. Navy. The six-barrel 20-millimeter Phalanx Gatling gun close-in weapon system (CIWS) is fitted to a majority of U.S. Navy ships and is exported widely to allied nations. A third defensive system is the multinational Mk 116 rolling airframe missile (RAM) design, which is deployed in the Mk 49 21-cell launchers used by six nations, including the U.S. Navy. A smaller SeaRAM with an 11-cell launcher in a Phalanx frame is replacing the 20-millimeter Gatling gun.
> 
> Recently, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) not only developed its own versions of VLS, CIWS and RAM, but it also has fielded three different versions of each. This hints at a unique multitier weapon system design philosophy. No other nation has expended the monetary and engineering resources to field three different variations of a given weapon system for one service. Nor can most other nations afford to do so, considering the monetary, development and production costs. And, logistical support and training costs must be considered as well.
> 
> The RAM point-defense missile is the most obvious and least complicated example of shipborne standardization. The original RAM design has been developed jointly by the United States and Germany since 1976. The Block 0 RAM missile is 2.8 meters long, uses radio frequency (RF) midcourse guidance and infrared (IR) terminal engagement and has a 9-kilometer range.
> 
> A Chinese copy was introduced at the 2008 Zhuhai Airshow with the export missile designation FL-3000N. The PLAN designation is HHQ-10. The Chinese missile launcher designation HQ stands for Hong Qi, which means Red Flag. Naval launchers are “H” for Hai, for naval, or HHQ, which means Naval Red Flag. The HHQ-10 has RF midcourse guidance and passive IR terminal guidance. Both missiles have two RF horns protruding from the nose. The advertised statistics were a 9-kilometer range versus subsonic targets; a 6-kilometer range versus supersonic targets; and a minimum range of 500 meters with a missile speed of Mach 2.5.
> 
> The FL 3000N was only 2 meters in length. The shorter missile would have less room for its rocket, which could mean less range than the RIM 116. This is supported by the FL-2000 missile shown at the 2003 Paris airshow, which had a minimum range of 800 meters and maximum range of 8 kilometers. Minimum altitude was 4 meters and maximum altitude was 8 kilometers. These figures are different from the FL-3000N.
> 
> The first Chinese HHQ-10 design appeared on the weapon trial ship 892 in 2010, and it had 24 cells. Another 18-cell version of the HHQ-10 appeared on the carrier Varyag in 2011, which was renamed Liaoning upon commissioning in September 2012. A third launcher variant with only eight cells appeared on the new Type 056 corvette design at Huang Shipyard in 2012.
> 
> Rather than have a standard HHQ-10 launcher design for all vessels, China developed three different designs for different-sized vessels. Although it conflicts with the three-level concept, the fact that a fourth HHQ-10 launcher with 15 cells appeared in January 2012 at the Zhuhai Airshow in China only makes an even stronger case for four Chinese multiple weapon variations. Whereas the first three RAM versions each had a unique base platform for the missile cells, the 15-cell launcher shares the same base foundation as the eight-cell RAM. It would be possible for the 15- and 18-cell designs to share foundations, but the newer eight-cell design must be superior to the earlier 18- or 24-cell designs.
> 
> The first two Chinese Gatling CIWS clearly were copies of Russian and Dutch designs. The Chinese copy of the Soviet seven-barrel 30-millimeter AK-630 first appeared on the Type 054 frigate in 2003 and subsequently on the Type 022 guided missile patrol boat and the Type 071 amphibious assault ship. China modified the Dutch Goalkeeper CIWS for the 052B, 052C and 051C destroyers and designated it as H/PJ-12, or Type 730 in the West.
> 
> The Goalkeeper CIWS utilized the U.S. 30-millimeter GAU-8 Gatling gun. Dutch designers evidently preferred the 30-millimeter gun over the 20-millimeter Phalanx gun. Chinese engineers increased the Goalkeeper firing rate from 4,200 rounds per minute (RPM) to 4,600-5,800 RPM and replaced the Dutch tracking and search radars with their Type EFR-1 radar and OFC-1 electro-optic director. These two versions would seem sufficient to meet all PLAN CIWS needs, but a surprise came when a Type 1130 CIWS with 11 rotating barrels appeared on the Liaoning carrier in 2012. It has a noticeably bulkier chassis to handle the stresses of an increased firing rate of 9,000 to 10,000 RPM.
> 
> So, three different CIWS designs are being produced and fielded on ships. By contrast, the U.S. Navy has retained the lighter 20-millimeter Phalanx design for 20 years, with performance upgrades. It is possible that the AK630 and Type 730 CIWS would not have a heavier Type 1130 added if the high-value carrier had not required maximum protection from the numerous air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missiles it would need to counter. It also is possible the PLAN approach is not an intended Chinese three-level design, but just a result of imports—except for the spectacular 11-barrel version, which was a planned Chinese project.
> 
> Two Chinese VLS designs currently are designated HHQ-9 on the 052C and HHQ-16 on the 054A frigate. This does not include the Russian SA-N-20 VLS on the two 051C Luzhou air defense destroyers for the North Fleet. Western experts expected the Chinese VLS to be a clone of Soviet and/or U.S. existing fielded launchers. At first glance it would appear China copied the Soviet circular eight-cell S-300 launcher. Yet the HHQ-9 does not rotate below deck cells with only one hatch, but instead has separate hatches that open above each of the six cells, such as in the Mk 41. However, unlike the Mk 41, the HHQ-9 is cold-launched, as is the Russian S-300 missile after which it is modeled. So the HHQ-9 VLS is a unique Chinese adaptation of the Russian design.
> 
> The HHQ-16 that appeared on the upgraded 054 frigates designated 054A has rectangular-shaped VLS modules and hatches, and it very much resembles the U.S. Mk 41. The HHQ-16 essentially is a vertically launched version of the SA-N-7B with a 50-kilometer range that uses the associated copy of the Russian MR-90 tracking radar. The third example is still in design, and conflicting reports exist about which ship will be the first to have the new Chinese “universal” VLS launcher installed.
> 
> The launcher may have been tested on test ship 891 and installed on the Type 052D guided missile destroyer (DDG). This approach is complicated by Soviet VLS designs that, along with the American Mk 41 VLS design, have a major impact on the Chinese VLS designs.
> 
> While China is very secretive about its new weapon system details, open literature known as Guo-jia Jun-yong Biao-zhun (GJB), which translates to “National Military Standard,” gives indications of technology directions. These military standards usually focus on common hull, mechanical and electric topics, but GJB 5860-2006 describes a very interesting subject. The title of this specification is “surface ship missile universal vertical launcher general requirements.” It states the VLS will launch four different types of missiles: anti-aircraft, anti-surface-ship, antisubmarine and land attack cruise missiles. Additionally, the VLS can handle three sizes of launch cells.
> 
> The cell length or depth is up to 9 meters (29.5 feet) for large missiles, up to 7 meters (22.9 feet) for medium size and up to 3.3 meters (10.8 feet) in length for small missiles. The eight compartments or cells each can hold a single missile, although a requirement also exists for the smaller cell to hold up to four missiles, such as the U.S. Navy’s quad pack arrangement for the Evolved Sea Sparrow missile. The size of each launch cell is 850 millimeters square (33.45 inches square).
> 
> The universal VLS can cold launch missiles, such as the HHQ-9, but it also can hot launch missiles such as the HHQ-16. However, unlike the Mk 41-type VLS on the Type 054A frigate that has visible exhaust vents between the launch cell rows, the universal VLS employs a concentric canister launch approach with exhaust vent paths within each launch cell.
> 
> The universal VLS on 052D, which was just launched in October 2012, may contain the DH-10 anti-carrier missile rather than the topside two cell launcher tubes on deck as on test ship 892. The two-cell launcher could be a backfit to the 052C series. Jane’s Strategic Weapon Systems 2010 describes the DH-10 diameter as 0.75 meters (29.5 inches) and length as 7.2 meters (23.6 feet), which is different from Chinese websites that list a 0.68 meter diameter and length of 8.3 meters. These dimensions probably include the booster. Either set of dimensions should fit in the large cell with room to spare. Some room in the cell must be allowed for the hot rocket exhaust vent to channel rocket flame out the top.
> 
> One key fact about this Chinese universal VLS launcher is its similarity to the new U.S. Mk 57 peripheral VLS currently being introduced on the U.S. Navy’s DDG 1000 Zumwalt class. Both have hot and cold launch capable cells, but the Mk 57 does not have three different module depths. All Mk 57 modules are 14.2 feet deep (4.3 meters), with module width of 7.25 feet (2.2 meters) and canister length of 283 inches (7.19 meters) and canister width of 28 inches (711 millimeters).
> 
> Compared with the Mk 57 VLS, the Chinese universal VLS can launch much larger diameter and longer missiles. The GJB on the Chinese VLS was published in 2006 while the Mk 57 still was in development. The design timelines basically are in parallel, as are the first ship install milestones. So, the prior five or more year lag from Chinese to Western new weapon designs no longer exists for VLS.
> 
> No indication exists yet of a formal PLAN doctrine advocating three levels of a given weapon system. Also, China might have copied the three-size U.S. Mk 41 design just for the PLAN and not for export. Yet, other navies do not support such a duplicative weapon design policy across weapon lines unique to the Chinese navy.
> 
> _James C. Bussert, employed at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren, Virginia, is the co-author of “People’s Liberation Army Navy Combat Systems Technology, 1949-2010.” The opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect the views of the U.S. Defense Department or the U.S. Navy.
> _
> China’s Navy Deploys  Three-Tier Defensive Weapons | afcea.org
> 
> 
> Excellent piece on Chinese naval weapons development.
> 
> Seems that the CSOC frigate displayed at IDEAS 2016 was offered with this new 7m VLS. That means MR-SAM DK-10 or LY-80N (if fitted with FCR for SARH missile) + LACM/AShM but no HHQ-9 (if it's 6.8m long without booster).
> 
> The model displayed at LIMA 2017 is capable of firing HHQ-16 which suggests it uses the older VLS (as on Type 054A).
> 
> @Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Blue Marlin @Tank131


Then it seems the IDEAS frigate's main differentiating feature is the ability to carry LACM/AShM in VLS.



ziaulislam said:


> we were recently denied harpoons, and RAM i doubt it
> thats the reason why swift makes no sense, i wount be surprised if the news was inaccurate


The US blocked Pakistan from integrating the MRTP-33 (i.e. non-US platform) with US weapons.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The news is directly from Swiftships' CEO (via two different news outlets at different times):
> Then it seems the IDEAS frigate's main differentiating feature is the ability to carry LACM/AShM in VLS.
> The US blocked Pakistan from integrating the MRTP-33 (i.e. non-US platform) with US weapons.


they say 2 with option of 2 so now it makes more sense
where is the funding coming from any guess
they do mention anti sub capability 
yes, that would make sense for USA blocking weapon on turkish platform i think


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> they say 2 with option of 2 so now it makes more sense
> where is the funding coming from any guess
> they do mention anti sub capability
> yes, that would make sense for USA blocking weapon on turkish platform i think


Since the Swift Corvettes will be used primarily for CTF-150/151, I expect financing will be mixed US and Pakistani funding. The Swift Corvettes can be equipped with AShM and ASW, but since these ships are primarily for coalition support in sea policing, I wouldn't bet on it yet.


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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Since the Swift Corvettes will be used primarily for CTF-150/151, I expect financing will be mixed US and Pakistani funding. The Swift Corvettes can be equipped with AShM and ASW, but since these ships are primarily for coalition support in sea policing, I wouldn't bet on it yet.
> 
> View attachment 436497



These Swiftship Corvette comes with 2x2 AShm Launchers and with a RAM 1/2 , even if US did not let us buy more Harpoons , we can use the Existing Launchers from the retired type -21's .


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## ziaulislam

Starlord said:


> These Swiftship Corvette comes with 2x2 AShm Launchers and with a RAM 1/2 , even if US did not let us buy more Harpoons , we can use the Existing Launchers from the retired type -21's .


real deal will be the RAM 
what antisub capability will it get?
we do have scan eagle so it will fit that profile

an excellent patrol vessel through


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## YeBeWarned

ziaulislam said:


> real deal will be the RAM
> what antisub capability will it get?
> we do have scan eagle so it will fit that profile
> 
> an excellent patrol vessel through



RAM/2 will be hard to get, it wont be easy but it can be replaced by Phalanx so not a huge issue , for the Original Hull design does not have a Built-in Sonar, but its Option according to their website, so we have wait and see which hull design or Modification PN chooses .. it can also be equipped with Surface Vessel Torpedo tubes


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> real deal will be the RAM
> what antisub capability will it get?
> we do have scan eagle so it will fit that profile
> 
> an excellent patrol vessel through


PN already uses ScanEagle UAVs. Honestly, I wouldn't expect much more than guns on these corvettes (mainly CTF-150/151). That said, the Swift Corvette can handle both AShW and ASW, it is up to the PN to equip them that way (and for the US to approve).

PS: notice the Twitter date ... it's September 2016. In other words, the Swift Corvette was being negotiated in parallel with the MILGEM and before they even signed the Letter-of-Intent at IDEF (i.e. May 2017). Heck this is even before IDEAS 2016! 

@cabatli_53 Maybe the LF-2400 dream lives.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780466354491195392

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Then it seems the IDEAS frigate's main differentiating feature is the ability to carry LACM/AShM in VLS.



*No HHQ-9*

It appears more likely that this is the ship PN has ordered.

32 cells can take 8x4=32 DK-10, 8 ASM like Yu-8, and 16 LACM/AShM. Plus 8 AShM/LACM in inclined launchers. Now, that is a major improvement.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> *No HHQ-9*
> 
> It appears more likely that this is the ship PN has ordered.
> 
> 32 cells can take 8x4=32 DK-10, 8 ASM like Yu-8, and 16 LACM/AShM. Plus 8 AShM/LACM in inclined launchers. Now, that is a major improvement.


We haven't heard much of the DK-10 since 2014, not even mock-ups of the system in quad-packing form from NORINCO or CSOC. So the alternate SAM in this case would be Umkhonto IR or EIR, but a SR/MR-SAM would still be very limiting seeing that even this frigate has an APAR and over-the-horizon radar (OTHR).

For this kind of ship I would try equipping it with the Russian Redut - i.e. 9M96E2 (5.65 m/120 km range) and 9M96E (4.75 m/60 km range). I'd equip it with 24 cells of 9M96E2 and 8 cells of AShM. Note, the 9M96E2 has a diameter of 240 mm compared to the HQ-9's diameter of 700 mm!

That said, the long-range APAR would certainly help with guiding long-range AShM, esp. a AShM-version of 700+ km Babur. So it'd technically still make sense with SR/MR-SAM and AShM/LACM.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We haven't heard much of the DK-10 since 2014, not even mock-ups of the system in quad-packing form from NORINCO or CSOC. So the alternate SAM in this case would be Umkhonto IR or EIR, but a SR/MR-SAM would still be very limiting seeing that even this frigate has an APAR and over-the-horizon radar (OTHR).



Probably under development.

There is a version called DK-10A being offered to export customers with Sky Dragon 50. Seems that DK-10A is the designation of the ground based SAM.

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## Reichsmarschall

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/931037434414010368

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PN already uses ScanEagle UAVs. Honestly, I wouldn't expect much more than guns on these corvettes (mainly CTF-150/151). That said, the Swift Corvette can handle both AShW and ASW, it is up to the PN to equip them that way (and for the US to approve).
> 
> PS: notice the Twitter date ... it's September 2016. In other words, the Swift Corvette was being negotiated in parallel with the MILGEM and before they even signed the Letter-of-Intent at IDEF (i.e. May 2017). Heck this is even before IDEAS 2016!
> 
> @cabatli_53 Maybe the LF-2400 dream lives.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780466354491195392



Bro, It seems Pakistan and Turkey have difficulty to finalize the big deals and Requests just remain on letter of intent stage since financial issues take much time in negotiations so the countries like USA revealing million $ funds to support their position on export markets, take advantage of this conditions so I will wait to be happy until I saw two countries signing official letters with a smile on their faces.


Hull Form Optimization and Model Testing of the I Class Frigate. (2015)





Secondly, I don’t suppose Pakistan will prefer a concept platform like LF-2400 whose underwater and keel optimizations of real models are not even achieved. Effects on the change of center of gravity along with new hull characteristics may need some changes over keel and place of accomodation since VL launchers are stationed on backside above the waterline which is different than Istanbull class frigates. I class’s pool optimizations are perfectly completed and passed into serial production so While a perfect ship like Istanbull class is on table for Pakistan, It is no need to take some risk on engineering study of a concept design that will take much time to get matured for production...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, It seems Pakistan and Turkey have difficulty to finalize the big deals and Requests just remain on letter of intent stage since financial issues take much time in negotiations so the countries like USA revealing million $ funds to support their position on export markets, take advantage of this conditions so I will wait to be happy until I saw two countries signing official letters with a smile on their faces.
> 
> 
> Hull Form Optimization and Model Testing of the I Class Frigate. (2015)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, I don’t suppose Pakistan will prefer a concept platform like LF-2400 whose underwater and keel optimizations of real models are not even achieved. Effects on the change of center of gravity along with new hull characteristics may need some changes over keel and place of accomodation since VL launchers are stationed on backside above the waterline which is different than Istanbull class frigates. I class’s pool optimizations are perfectly completed and passed into serial production so While a perfect ship like Istanbull class is on table for Pakistan, It is no need to take some risk on engineering study of a concept design that will take much time to get matured for production...





Things are stuck due to political turmoil due to Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan , and elections are due in few month's time

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, It seems Pakistan and Turkey have difficulty to finalize the big deals and Requests just remain on letter of intent stage since financial issues take much time in negotiations so the countries like USA revealing million $ funds to support their position on export markets, take advantage of this conditions so I will wait to be happy until I saw two countries signing official letters with a smile on their faces.
> 
> 
> Hull Form Optimization and Model Testing of the I Class Frigate. (2015)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, I don’t suppose Pakistan will prefer a concept platform like LF-2400 whose underwater and keel optimizations of real models are not even achieved. Effects on the change of center of gravity along with new hull characteristics may need some changes over keel and place of accomodation since VL launchers are stationed on backside above the waterline which is different than Istanbull class frigates. I class’s pool optimizations are perfectly completed and passed into serial production so While a perfect ship like Istanbull class is on table for Pakistan, It is no need to take some risk on engineering study of a concept design that will take much time to get matured for production...


Good thing for Turkey is that time with Pakistan might not be that costly. The Swift Corvettes are meant for CTF-150/151, the US since 2011 has stopped the easy supply of war fighting systems to Pakistan, while Europe is just focused on India and will not look at Pakistan. China is there, but Pakistan likes diversity as well.

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## Gryphon

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, It seems Pakistan and Turkey have difficulty to finalize the big deals and Requests just remain on letter of intent stage since financial issues take much time in negotiations so the countries like USA revealing million $ funds to support their position on export markets, take advantage of this conditions so I will wait to be happy until I saw two countries signing official letters with a smile on their faces.
> 
> 
> Hull Form Optimization and Model Testing of the I Class Frigate. (2015)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, I don’t suppose Pakistan will prefer a concept platform like LF-2400 whose underwater and keel optimizations of real models are not even achieved. Effects on the change of center of gravity along with new hull characteristics may need some changes over keel and place of accomodation since VL launchers are stationed on backside above the waterline which is different than Istanbull class frigates. I class’s pool optimizations are perfectly completed and passed into serial production so While a perfect ship like Istanbull class is on table for Pakistan, It is no need to take some risk on engineering study of a concept design that will take much time to get matured for production...



Which VL module will the I-Class equip with, Mk 41 self defence or tactical ?


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## cabatli_53

Gryphon said:


> Which VL module will the I-Class equip with, Mk 41 self defence or tactical ?



If nothing is changed, It is tactical MK-41 modules to be integrated on I class frigates similar to MEKO and Gabya class frigates upgraded with same modules but It will be interim solution since Domestic VL launcher is being developed to integrate own developed missile systems...

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## Advocate Pakistan

cabatli_53 said:


> If nothing is changed, It is tactical MK-41 modules to be integrated on I class frigates similar to MEKO and Gabya class frigates upgraded with same modules but It will be interim solution since Domestic VL launcher is being developed to integrate own developed missile systems...


It would be a blessing for many Muslim navies if Turkey could develop a domestic VLS and air defence system relating thereto.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Things are stuck due to political turmoil due to Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan , and elections are due in few month's time



Evaluating from realistic prespective we can conclude

a) T129 talks have been going on since 2010 , it may look severely delayed however Turkey was still fininshing the production of these Helicopters and they also had a large requirements for local military first.

b) Similarly a same scenario with the Corvettes/Frigates which turkey some of these are newly constructed designs and Turkey is still making few for it's own navy. With the Turkish ship I think we have seen faster progress.

The positive I do see

> Our PM has already gone and shown himself in the cockpit of T-129 which should be a great indication that T-129 will be the workhorse for our Military/ Navy/ Airforce (Aviation machines)

> The Ship matter , we all know the Turkish corvette platforms are heavily favored construction of the big ticket supply ship is the biggest example of growing cooperation in Navy purchase.

My guess is a reaslitic decision will only come after our elections



The frigate from China which have been discussed , is a deal from 2006 when we first got our F22P we had option to get a upgraded F22P or a different ship during Musharaf's time an older order


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## cabatli_53

Advocate Pakistan said:


> It would be a blessing for many Muslim navies if Turkey could develop a domestic VLS and air defence system relating thereto.




Countless missile and air defence projects for Navy, Land and Air Forces. Turkish industry has catched the tail of technology; generating many projects with adding new capabilities&subsystems over and over another insatiably. Turkish PM love showing off the strength of national products to criticize Western embargo in his speeches so Yesterday, He underlined that Turkey will station own developed national air defence umbrella in a short time and share them with brother states without any limitation.


Milli Dikey Atım Sistemi: National Vertical Launch System
Sapan is considered to be a RAM equivalent Air Defence Missile.
Korkut-D is Naval CIWS
Hisar-A/O/U is Low/Medium/Long Altitude SAM projects (IIR/RF/Hybrid seeker head variants)

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> we were recently denied harpoons, and RAM i doubt it
> thats the reason why swift makes no sense, i wount be surprised if the news was inaccurate



We have harpoon block-2 available so they may be fitted on those.


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## Advocate Pakistan

cabatli_53 said:


> Countless missile and air defence projects for Navy, Land and Air Forces. Turkish industry has catched the tail of technology; generating many projects with adding new capabilities&subsystems over and over another insatiably. Turkish PM love showing off the strength of national products to criticize Western embargo in his speeches so Yesterday, He underlined that Turkey will station own developed national air defence umbrella in a short time and share them with brother states without any limitation.
> 
> 
> Milli Dikey Atım Sistemi: National Vertical Launch System
> Sapan is considered to be a RAM equivalent Air Defence Missile.
> Korkut-D is Naval CIWS
> Hisar-A/O/U is Low/Medium/Long Altitude SAM projects (IIR/RF/Hybrid seeker head variants)



Knew of Korkut, Hisar and Atmaca. The rest are new for me. What is gezgin?

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## cabatli_53

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Knew of Korkut, Hisar and Atmaca. The rest are new for me. What is gezgin?




-Gezgin (Traveler): Underwater/Surface Combatant launchable land attack cruise missile project planned to have a range around 1000km. 

-Temren (Arrow): Naval helicopter/plane launchable beyond RAM range anti-ship missile. Block-1 variant with around 16/17km, While Block-2 variant is planned around 30km, an equivalent of Kongberg Penguin missile TN uses. 

-Sapan (Sling): A kind of Naval Surface to Air Missile wich is considered an equivalent of RAM but We don't have much information about it now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon

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## Advocate Pakistan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon
> 
> View attachment 438754


Interesting. What's that multiple launcher beside the stack? Torpedo launcher or some sort of decoy launcher.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Interesting. What's that multiple launcher beside the stack? Torpedo launcher or some sort of decoy launcher.


Probably decoy.


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon
> 
> View attachment 438754



Still not sure what is ordered by pn ??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Still not sure what is ordered by pn ??


Nope. But we can now confirm that the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate is offered in 2 variants: one with HQ-16 and another without the target illuminator and taller VLS cells.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hey is chinese frigate and turkish corvette
Or
Chinese frigate and turkish frigate? ( i class and lf 2400 and ada really confuses me alot)
Ciao


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Nope. But we can now confirm that the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate is offered in 2 variants: one with HQ-16 and another without the target illuminator and taller VLS cells.


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon
> 
> View attachment 438754



This ship is the one PN should seek. This plus a quad packed missile will be a beast and can have various load outs. I would say a standard loadout of 16 HQ-9, and 64 quad packed MRSAMs with possibly 4-8 cells of MRSAMs used in strike configuration for LACM (but i still think that it would be better to allow subs to handle that role), for 16 HQ-9, 4-8 LACM, 32-48 MRSAMS.

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Nope. But we can now confirm that the CSOC 4,000-ton frigate is offered in 2 variants: one with HQ-16 and another without the target illuminator and taller VLS cells.



is it HQ-16B with 70Km range? or the older version bought by Pakistan army with 40Km range?

8 SSM , will it be C802A or Zarb (c602a version whit Pakistani mods) or some new supersonic missiles?

is Pn considering 4 of these ships or 2 example?

assuming timeline is post 2020 considering lead time and previous experiences, will nay be build in KSEW?


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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon


lets go for the warship behind the frigate instead

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## Gryphon

syed_yusuf said:


> is it HQ-16B with 70Km range? or the older version bought by Pakistan army with 40Km range?
> 
> 8 SSM , will it be C802A or Zarb (c602a version whit Pakistani mods) or some new supersonic missiles?
> 
> is Pn considering 4 of these ships or 2 example?
> 
> assuming timeline is post 2020 considering lead time and previous experiences, will nay be build in KSEW?



Take a look at some previous pages of this thread.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> lets go for the warship behind the frigate instead


I'd personally love to draft a plan to acquire a CATOBAR carrier with Project Azm 5th-gen fighters, but the world will crap on it thanks to Pakistan's lack of funding. Sure it might not do a whole lot to India, but it'd let Pakistan form a mobile air presence for the Arab Gulf and Horn of Africa.



syed_yusuf said:


> is it HQ-16B with 70Km range? or the older version bought by Pakistan army with 40Km range?
> 
> 8 SSM , will it be C802A or Zarb (c602a version whit Pakistani mods) or some new supersonic missiles?
> 
> is Pn considering 4 of these ships or 2 example?
> 
> assuming timeline is post 2020 considering lead time and previous experiences, will nay be build in KSEW?


We don't know what frigates the PN ordered from China. However, the design in the last picture doesn't use HQ-16 or HQ-17. There's no target illuminator, so the SAM has to have a terminal active seeker, could be DK-10 or some other missile (for the buyer to decide).



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hey is chinese frigate and turkish corvette
> Or
> Chinese frigate and turkish frigate? ( i class and lf 2400 and ada really confuses me alot)
> Ciao


Based on the info publicly available, it's Chinese frigate (unknown) and Turkish corvette (Ada)

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## khanasifm

Interesting https://www.defensenews.com/news/yo...ants-small-warships-that-pack-a-bigger-punch/


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## khanasifm

One comment it does not make difference if you have 70km Sam or 12 km range sam as most of air lunches anti ship missiles out ranges the sams so an effective sam is and should be the requirement, very reason usn using ram and other which are much shorter range then all Russian anti ship missiles or matter of fact other anti ship missiles, along with phalanx

Lastly able to handle saturated attack’s such as 2-4 anti ship missiles at the same time


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## Tank131

khanasifm said:


> One comment it does not make difference if you have 70km Sam or 12 km range sam as most of air lunches anti ship missiles out ranges the sams so an effective sam is and should be the requirement, very reason usn using ram and other which are much shorter range then all Russian anti ship missiles or matter of fact other anti ship missiles, along with phalanx
> 
> Lastly able to handle saturated attack’s such as 2-4 anti ship missiles at the same time



I dont agree. The range of. The SAMs is very important. The SAM is more to shoot down the missile than the aircraft carrying it. The USN uses multi tier approach for air defense, starting with SM-2/6 which can engage targets from hundreds of km away. At medium ranges ESSM, can engage targets at 50km away. And RAM/RAM2 from 12-22km away respectively. And inside of 5km you have the phalanx ciws. The long range weapon gives you more opportunity to defeat the incoming missile. So it absolutely matters on the range of your sams.


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From Defence and Security 2017 @Gryphon
> 
> View attachment 438754


based of the type 057 thats was modelled in pakistan last year









pics from your site

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yep.


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## Akasa

Col. Shahzad Iqbal of PNS _Saif_ has confirmed that the Pakistani Navy will purchase the *Type 054A* FFG during a recent PN visit to Shanghai.

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## Gryphon

SinoSoldier said:


> Col. Shahzad Iqbal of PNS _Saif_ has confirmed that the Pakistani Navy will purchase the *Type 054A* FFG during a recent PN visit to Shanghai.
> 
> View attachment 440107
> 
> View attachment 440108



How many ?


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## khanasifm

SinoSoldier said:


> Col. Shahzad Iqbal of PNS _Saif_ has confirmed that the Pakistani Navy will purchase the *Type 054A* FFG during a recent PN visit to Shanghai.
> 
> View attachment 440107
> 
> View attachment 440108



Looks like pn want to stick to something that is already proven and has service history ?? Rather than trying out totally new design ?? If this new is true ??

Unless he is calling new design the same name or f22p upgrade 

Per Janes report 4 new frigates were part of negotiations with build split among China and pak


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Looks like pn want to stick to something that is already proven and has service history ?? Rather than trying out totally new design ?? If this new is true ??
> 
> Unless he is calling new design the same name or f22p upgrade
> 
> Per Janes report 4 new frigates were part of negotiations with build split among China and pak


The CSOC 4,000-ton frigate (for export) is based on the Type 054A. There are some differences, e.g. there's a model without a target-illuminator and longer VLS, but at their core, same ship as the Type 054A.


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The CSOC 4,000-ton frigate (for export) is based on the Type 054A. There are some differences, e.g. there's a model without a target-illuminator and longer VLS, but at their core, same ship as the Type 054A.



But Its not called 054a ?? Is it ?? Anyway till Janes or someone reports formally it’s all guessing or this interviews is formally published


Latest model 054 ?? A ? B has 11 barrel 30mm close in weapon system type 1130 plus variable depth towed sonar and some other improvements as well

https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmod...1-barrel-hypersonic-missile-ki-1679292034/amp


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> But Its not called 054a ?? Is it ?? Anyway till Janes or someone reports formally it’s all guessing or this interviews is formally published
> 
> 
> Latest model 054 ?? A ? B has 11 barrel 30mm close in weapon system type 1130 plus variable depth towed sonar and some other improvements as well
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmod...1-barrel-hypersonic-missile-ki-1679292034/amp


Realistically, when the official name is "CSOC 4,000 ton frigate" can we really expect a PN Capt to say that instead of the simpler "054A?" We can't even get a proper description of the PN's new submarines.


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## Muhammad Omar

SinoSoldier said:


> Col. Shahzad Iqbal of PNS _Saif_ has confirmed that the Pakistani Navy will purchase the *Type 054A* FFG during a recent PN visit to Shanghai.
> 
> View attachment 440107
> 
> View attachment 440108



How many How Many


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## YeBeWarned

Muhammad Omar said:


> How many How Many



4


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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> But Its not called 054a ?? Is it ?? Anyway till Janes or someone reports formally it’s all guessing or this interviews is formally published
> 
> 
> Latest model 054 ?? A ? B has 11 barrel 30mm close in weapon system type 1130 plus variable depth towed sonar and some other improvements as well
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmod...1-barrel-hypersonic-missile-ki-1679292034/amp



http://www.janes.com/article/69073/china-s-csoc-showcases-a-new-4-000-tonne-frigate

The model at IDEAS didn't have FCR for SARH missiles (LY-80N) though one could be fitted with the actual ship. 70 km range LY-80N shouldn't be far off.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

One shown-off at IDEAS 2016 together with the S26 SSP


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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> 4



Assuming that each ship costs 350 million USD, that is 1.4 bn USD for four. The LR-SAM capability it could bring will be worth every penny spent.

Fleet level AD for F-22P, Alamgir, remaining Type 21 and possibly Ada corvettes as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Assuming that each ship costs 350 million USD, that is 1.4 bn USD for four. The LR-SAM capability it could bring will be worth every penny spent.
> 
> Fleet level AD for F-22P, Alamgir, remaining Type 21 and possibly Ada corvettes as well.


If they can at least get the 280 km APAR and 500 km OTOH, the Navy would have (1) the ability to guide the CM-302 or CX-1 AShM and (2) provide stand-off range surveillance in lieu of and/or complementing AEW&C. Of course, with the sensor suite in place they can fit LR-SAM later.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Don't see any arrival Till next year's election or later
Should just get , used ships for fill gap till new ships arrive


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they can at least get the 280 km APAR and 500 km OTOH, the Navy would have (1) the ability to guide the CM-302 or CX-1 AShM and (2) provide stand-off range surveillance in lieu of and/or complementing AEW&C. Of course, with the sensor suite in place they can fit LR-SAM later.



If PN has licensed C-602 as Zarb and C-802A as Harba, then IMO we won't get to see any other AShM on PN's surface ships acquired from China/Turkey. Licensing isn't free and deploying Zarb on two Azmat FAC's just doesn't cut it.

One may argue that DGMP is developing an indigenous AShM/LACM launcher, but, the Babur is a NESCOM thing.


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they can at least get the 280 km APAR and 500 km OTOH, the Navy would have (1) the ability to guide the CM-302 or CX-1 AShM and (2) provide stand-off range surveillance in lieu of and/or complementing AEW&C. Of course, with the sensor suite in place they can fit LR-SAM later.


it would a powerful L-band radar like the smart-L for it to guide missiles to it target. if not then a s-band would be needed. anti ship missiles would only need initial guidance as they have radar of their own. most ships have an l-d band radar for long range surveillance and tracking if advanced enough, and an s-band for searching and tracking.
and x band radar as a fire and control radar and jamming.


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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> Assuming that each ship costs 350 million USD, that is 1.4 bn USD for four. The LR-SAM capability it could bring will be worth every penny spent.
> 
> Fleet level AD for F-22P, Alamgir, remaining Type 21 and possibly Ada corvettes as well.



I think type 21 will be retired once the new frigate start joining .. Hopefully PN will increase number to 6 for these type54A frigates . 
And I am still hoping for I-class frigate from turkey cause swiftship corvette and ada is almost same in configuration.


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## Gryphon

Starlord said:


> I think type 21 will be retired once the new frigate start joining .. Hopefully PN will increase number to 6 for these type54A frigates .
> And I am still hoping for I-class frigate from turkey cause swiftship corvette and ada is almost same in configuration.



Two Type 21's are equipped with Harpoon and the other two with LY-60 SAM. Two were retired, one with Harpoon (later fitted to PNS Alamgir) & the other with LY-60.

The primary role was ASW for all six. IMO, Ada corvettes (with or without VLS) are more suitable for this role.

I don't think Chinese frigates are meant to replace 4 out of 6 Type 21's. Those will increase surface fleet numbers.

No offense to Turks, but I-Class frigates don't offer anything over CSOC 4000 ton frigate. PN doesn't need a frigate that has only 16 VLS cells for American semi-active ESSM (though quad packable), no LACM integration possibility with Mk 41, American AShM and ASW torpedo.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Two Type 21's are equipped with Harpoon and the other two with LY-60 SAM. Two were retired, one with Harpoon (later fitted to PNS Alamgir) & the other with LY-60.
> 
> The primary role was ASW for all six. IMO, Ada corvettes (with or without VLS) are more suitable for this role.
> 
> I don't think Chinese frigates are meant to replace 4 out of 6 Type 21's. Those will increase surface fleet numbers.
> 
> No offense to Turks, but I-Class frigates don't offer anything over CSOC 4000 ton frigate. PN doesn't need a frigate that has only 16 VLS cells for American semi-active ESSM (though quad packable), no LACM integration possibility with Mk 41, American AShM and ASW torpedo.


The best route with the Turks is to go for the LF-2400. It seems like an inherently low cost design similar to the Gowind 2500 (inc. VLS). It'd be a good light-end complement to the 4,000-ton FFG.

As for supersonic AShM, the PN can buy a stock directly off the shelf. That or foot the bill for a new design, like getting Denel to revive the LRTM.


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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As for supersonic AShM, the PN can buy a stock directly off the shelf. That or foot the bill for a new design, like getting Denel to revive the LRTM.



No promises, but I have strong indications that an indigenous system is under development, to be revealed in 2018. Often, parallel development and procurement programs are run (as was the case with Burraq and Shahpar).


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## ziaulislam

Gryphon said:


> Two Type 21's are equipped with Harpoon and the other two with LY-60 SAM. Two were retired, one with Harpoon (later fitted to PNS Alamgir) & the other with LY-60.
> 
> The primary role was ASW for all six. IMO, Ada corvettes (with or without VLS) are more suitable for this role.
> 
> I don't think Chinese frigates are meant to replace 4 out of 6 Type 21's. Those will increase surface fleet numbers.
> 
> No offense to Turks, but I-Class frigates don't offer anything over CSOC 4000 ton frigate. PN doesn't need a frigate that has only 16 VLS cells for American semi-active ESSM (though quad packable), no LACM integration possibility with Mk 41, American AShM and ASW torpedo.


type 21 are on borrowed time, what makes you think PN will keep them beyond 2025?(best case scenrio for Chinese frigates is 2025)
turkish deal is still not confirmed though likely, but will be taking more time than chinese frigates


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## khanasifm

ziaulislam said:


> type 21 are on borrowed time, what makes you think PN will keep them beyond 2025?(best case scenrio for Chinese frigates is 2025)
> turkish deal is still not confirmed though likely, but will be taking more time than chinese frigates



Chinese built may come sooner but pak built may take longer Chinese yard pumping ships like there is no tomorrow but also depends on the contract
What is the source of 2025 date or just guessing ??

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> Chinese built may come sooner but pak built may take longer Chinese yard pumping ships like there is no tomorrow but also depends on the contract
> What is the source of 2025 date or just guessing ??


just a guess


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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> Chinese built may come sooner but pak built may take longer Chinese yard pumping ships like there is no tomorrow but also depends on the contract
> What is the source of 2025 date or just guessing ??



KS&EW can't compete with the Chinese on price. The reason 4x MPV's for PMSA are being built in China and only 2x MPV's at Karachi.

KS&EW is scheduled to start Hangor class submarine construction in 2020 and Milgem construction 'soon' (as per Rana Tanveer, Minister of DP). I suspect none of the Chinese frigates contracted will be assembled in Pakistan.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> KS&EW can't compete with the Chinese on price. The reason 4x MPV's for PMSA are being built in China and only 2x MPV's at Karachi.
> 
> KS&EW is scheduled to start Hangor class submarine construction in 2020 and Milgem construction 'soon' (as per Rana Tanveer, Minister of DP). I suspect none of the Chinese frigates contracted will be assembled in Pakistan.


IMO with the the first 4 Hangor SSP it would be wise to focus on bringing the integration work to Pakistan. That way, KSEW can independently (after receiving capacity building from CSOC) integrate PN's choice of subsystems.

Like Thailand and Algeria, it would give the PN the chance to select and integrate the Western subsystems it already has to those platforms. For example, Algeria had the Thales SMART-S Mk2 integrated to the C28A, while the Thai fitted a Mk41 VLS with ESSM to the 025T. The PN could standardize the subsystem suite of the Agosta 90B across the Hangor SSP. 

The Chinese FFG might be a bit tougher if Chinese APAR and OTHR are sought. In that case, I wonder if it'd be possible to quietly procure the Russian Redut (naval S-350 with 60 km and 120 km range) for it.


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As for supersonic AShM, the PN can buy a stock directly off the shelf. That or foot the bill for a new design, like getting Denel to revive the LRTM.



Chinese supersonic AShM's aren't proven designs like subsonic Harpoon & C-802. AFAIK, PLAN hasn't adopted those either and is equipping newer ships with YJ-83.

There are considerations of size (i.e. the impact on RCS) and cost as well.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Chinese FFG might be a bit tougher if Chinese APAR and OTHR are sought. In that case, I wonder if it'd be possible to quietly procure the Russian Redut (naval S-350 with 60 km and 120 km range) for it.



As I have mentioned earlier, if naval HQ-9 is 6.8m (inc. booster), it will fit the new 7m Chinese VLS. If PN wants a third party missile which was designed according to their own VLS, then the feasibility, integration (with CMS, air sur. radar, VLS, etc) and testing costs have to be paid as well.


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## Daniel808

Would be nice to see this Frigate with Pakistani Naval Flag


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## MastanKhan

Gryphon said:


> Chinese supersonic AShM's aren't proven designs like subsonic Harpoon & C-802. AFAIK, PLAN hasn't adopted those either and is equipping newer ships with YJ-83.
> 
> There are considerations of size (i.e. the impact on RCS) and cost as well.
> 
> 
> 
> As I have mentioned earlier, if naval HQ-9 is 6.8m (inc. booster), it will fit the new 7m Chinese VLS. If PN wants a third party missile which was designed according to their own VLS, then the feasibility, integration (with CMS, air sur. radar, VLS, etc) and testing costs have to be paid as well.



Hi,

The C-802 was not proven till it was---.

In this day and age---we still use the term "PROVEN" very losely---like it was the 50's and 60's---.

Today---with all technology available at hands---and a totally ruthless cycle of testing---re-testing---field testing---combat / battle conditions testing---there is nothing more that one can accomplish to say that the system is " not proven ".

Harpoon or the C802 just did not become proven like that---they went thru gruesome field testing as well to get deployed.

Same with CM400AKG.

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## Basel

Gryphon said:


> Chinese supersonic AShM's aren't proven designs like subsonic Harpoon & C-802. AFAIK, PLAN hasn't adopted those either and is equipping newer ships with YJ-83.
> 
> There are considerations of size (i.e. the impact on RCS) and cost as well.
> 
> 
> 
> As I have mentioned earlier, if naval HQ-9 is 6.8m (inc. booster), it will fit the new 7m Chinese VLS. If PN wants a third party missile which was designed according to their own VLS, then the feasibility, integration (with CMS, air sur. radar, VLS, etc) and testing costs have to be paid as well.



YJ-18 is the new AShM of PLAN with capability of supersonic final approach.


http://www.janes.com/article/73618/image-suggests-yj-18-anti-ship-missile-has-entered-plan-service

https://www.uscc.gov/Research/china...pabilities-and-implications-us-forces-western


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## Gryphon

Interviewed by a Shanghai TV channel, Colonel Shahzad Iqbal, commander of the PNS Saif frigate, said the Pakistan Navy will acquire the Chinese Type 054A frigates. 25 buildings of this class are currently in service in the Chinese Navy.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936630300578217986

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## Neptune

Gryphon said:


> Two Type 21's are equipped with Harpoon and the other two with LY-60 SAM. Two were retired, one with Harpoon (later fitted to PNS Alamgir) & the other with LY-60.
> 
> The primary role was ASW for all six. IMO, Ada corvettes (with or without VLS) are more suitable for this role.
> 
> I don't think Chinese frigates are meant to replace 4 out of 6 Type 21's. Those will increase surface fleet numbers.
> 
> No offense to Turks, but I-Class frigates don't offer anything over CSOC 4000 ton frigate. PN doesn't need a frigate that has only 16 VLS cells for American semi-active ESSM (though quad packable), no LACM integration possibility with Mk 41, American AShM and ASW torpedo.



I definitely see your point but it seems rather costly and not efficient enough when you are thinking of integrating LACMs on vessels weighting around 3500-4000 tonnes without having a large and well tailored cooperative engagement network involving aircraft, ground based radars and ships that have advanced sensors and capability to illuminate enemy targets at a descent range.


----------



## Gryphon

Basel said:


> YJ-18 is the new AShM of PLAN with capability of supersonic final approach.
> 
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/73618/image-suggests-yj-18-anti-ship-missile-has-entered-plan-service
> 
> https://www.uscc.gov/Research/china’s-new-yj-18-antiship-cruise-missile-capabilities-and-implications-us-forces-western



And deployed from VLS on board destroyers and not frigates/corvettes.
Those are large (2-2.5 ton) missiles.



Neptune said:


> I definitely see your point but it seems rather costly and not efficient enough when you are thinking of integrating LACMs on vessels weighting around 3500-4000 tonnes without having a large and well tailored cooperative engagement network involving aircraft, ground based radars and ships that have advanced sensors and capability to illuminate enemy targets at a descent range.



I didn't get the illumination part - illuminate a land target with laser ?

Babur LACM uses INS+GPS and TERCOM/DSMAC which can guide the missile when it is no longer within the on-board radar's range (i.e. no more mid course updates).


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## Neptune

Gryphon said:


> And deployed from VLS on board destroyers and not frigates/corvettes.
> Those are large (2-2.5 ton) missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't get the illumination part - illuminate a land target with laser ?
> 
> Babur LACM uses INS+GPS and TERCOM/DSMAC which can guide the missile when it is no longer within the on-board radar's range (i.e. no more mid course updates).



I beg your pardon for my translation. I directly translated the term from our terminology which is a process. The point is I meant the guiding/fire control apparatus of the platforms. On my statement above, the issue is not about the missile and its specifications but rather about the platforms and systems that are used to fire it.

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## Gryphon

Neptune said:


> I beg your pardon for my translation. I directly translated the term from our terminology which is a process. The point is I meant the guiding/fire control apparatus of the platforms. On my statement above, the issue is not about the missile and its specifications but rather about the platforms and systems that are used to fire it.



You mean the platform, system and radar that will help fire/guide the ship based Babur LACM?


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## Neptune

Gryphon said:


> You mean the platform, system and radar that will help fire/guide the ship based Babur LACM?



Yes. But basically not only the ship itself because for frigates around 4000 tonnes, it is highly likely that the range of the Babur missile will be greater than that of the radars and sensors of the hosting platform. It is not an impossible or bad option. It is just that when you plan such an armament, in order to have the most effective (both technically and financially) solution, one shall posses the capabilities I mentioned at the very beginning.


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## Basel

Gryphon said:


> And deployed from VLS on board destroyers and not frigates/corvettes.
> Those are large (2-2.5 ton) missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't get the illumination part - illuminate a land target with laser ?
> 
> Babur LACM uses INS+GPS and TERCOM/DSMAC which can guide the missile when it is no longer within the on-board radar's range (i.e. no more mid course updates).



All top weapons in PLAN are mostly deployed from destroyers then they are deployed on submarines and smaller frigates.

YJ-18 will be deployed on frigates and submarines.


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## Gryphon

Neptune said:


> Yes. But basically not only the ship itself because for frigates around 4000 tonnes, it is highly likely that the range of the Babur missile will be greater than that of the radars and sensors of the hosting platform. It is not an impossible or bad option. It is just that when you plan such an armament, in order to have the most effective (both technically and financially) solution, one shall posses the capabilities I mentioned at the very beginning.



Regarding aircraft, PN employs its fleet of MPA and has support of a PAF JF-17 squadron dedicated for maritime strike. 

Ground based radars and coastal anti-ship batteries of Zarb (C-602?) missile are operational.

CSOC 4000 ton frigate (based on the Type 054A) has a phased array radar and OTH radar (with range upto 500 km). The VLS for PN ships will probably be the new 7m Chinese VLS which can fit Babur LACM.


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## monitor

POSSIBLE DETAILS OF PAKISTAN’S FRIGATE PURCHASE FROM CHINA
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The commanding officer of a Pakistan Navy frigate on a goodwill visit to China told Shanghai TV that the Pakistan Navy will procure the Type 054A frigate from China.

The Zulfiqar-class (F-22P) frigate PNS Saif was welcomed to Wusong Naval Port on December 01. The PNS Saif’s commanding officer, Capt. Shahzad Iqbal, told local media that the ship travelled “more than 9,000 nautical miles from Pakistan to Shanghai,” stopping by Sri Lanka and Thailand while en route to China.

Pakistan operates four F-22P frigates. Derived from the Type 053H3 patrol frigate, the F-22P is equipped for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-ship warfare (AShW) operations.

It is armed with two quad-cell (2×4) launchers for the C-802 anti-ship missile (AShM) and two triple (2×3) launchers for ET-52C lightweight ASW torpedoes. The F-22P is also equipped with an eight-cell FM-90N surface-to-air missile (SAM) system for short-range air defence (SHORAD) coverage.

Besides goodwill interaction, the PNS Saif will also participate in exercises with the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). During a Chinese media visit, Capt. Iqbal told Shanghai TV that the Pakistan Navy will procure Type 054A frigates from China. The Type 054A is the mainstay of the PLAN fleet.

Notes & Comments:

In October, the outgoing Chief of Naval Staff Adm. Muhammad Zakaullah announced that Pakistan had reached a deal to procure new frigates from China. Zakaullah did not specify the model of the new frigates or the number of ships the Pakistan Navy will be procuring. Reports from 2012 had pegged the Pakistan Navy procuring upgraded or improved versions of the F-22P.

If Shanghai TV is correct, Pakistan could be procuring one of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation’s (CSIC) 4,000-ton frigate designs. According to IHS Jane’s, the 4,000-ton frigate design is based on the Type 054A. It has an endurance of 21 days, length of 135 m, range of 4,000 nautical miles (cruising at 18 knots) and top speed of 26 knots. It has 32 vertical-launch system (VLS) cells, one 76 mm main naval gun, two 30 mm guns and a 24-cell FL-3000N point-defence missile system (PDMS).

The CSIC 4,000-ton frigate is available in two variants: one with a target-illuminator to guide the semi-active radar-homing (SARH) HQ-16 SAM. The second is without a target-illuminator, but longer VLS cells. The second variant appears to have been designed to carry SAMs with active terminal-stage seekers and potentially other kinds of missiles, such as land-attack cruise missiles (LACM).


CSOC 4,000-ton frigate with target illuminator.




CSOC 4,000-ton frigate without target illuminator, but with longer/higher VLS.



The latter variant is interesting in that it would maximize the utility of the 4,000-ton frigate’s use of active phased-array radar (APAR) and passive over-the-horizon radar (OTHR). Using the China Educational Instrument and Equipment Corp (CEIEC) SLR-66 as a benchmark, the frigate’s APAR could have a range of 280 km, while the OTHR would have a range of 500 km. The OTHR would provide the ship with stand-off range air and surface surveillance coverage, while the APAR can guide long-range SAM and/or AShM. The VLS cells would bode well for potential LACM usage (Pakistan has the 700-km range Babur 2). Pakistan could also configure the ship to carry long-range SAM for area-wide anti-air warfare coverage.

The caveat to this is whether Pakistan will in fact proceed with the CSOC 4,000-ton frigates as shown in the models, or a pared down model to reduce costs. However, if pared down, these ships are still large enough to be upgraded with APAR, OTHR and heightened VLS cells in the future.

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## khanasifm

054a vs 054b ?? http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/2778.html


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## Gryphon

ziaulislam said:


> type 21 are on borrowed time, what makes you think PN will keep them beyond 2025?(best case scenrio for Chinese frigates is 2025)
> turkish deal is still not confirmed though likely, but will be taking more time than chinese frigates



And yet, age didn't stop PN from acquiring the PNS Alamgir and paying for it's refurbishment. Alamgir is roughly of the same age as the last Type 21's (Tippu Sultan and Shah Jahan).

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## khanasifm

Folks where is th source of the number on order, of course other than speculation and non official sources, on various threads it states a single 054a is on order, usually at least pair to 4 ships are ordered for the type for a fleet ??


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## Tank131

I think they will be ordered piecemeal. Probably 1 for now and more when more $$$ is available. The question is which variant? I am hoping that instead of the HQ-16 and target illuminator, they go for a longer vls tube with DK10


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Cy-5 Asroc 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CY-1

http://www.janes.com/images/assets/911/72911/Undersea_dragon_Chinese_ASW_capabilities_advance.pdf

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*10 Ships* under CPEC lease program would be best route for Pakistan/China CPEC security
Thinking perhaps* 
*
Lease to Own program 

*4 Type 054* 

*6 F22P+*


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## khanasifm

Chinese Asroc on type 054a with ~30km range 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/987894940939137030


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## khanasifm

Asroc

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## Basel

khanasifm said:


> Chinese Asroc on type 054a with ~30km range
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/987894940939137030



30km flight range or full range?


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## khanasifm

Looks like 3 tier 054 in outlet layer in the Arabian Sea with subs next inner layer with f22ps/Ada and the inner most with close to shore within paf air protection are Missile boats azmat plus shore base defences such as Harba 

Or some combination of all assets to form layer defense during crises 


See Falkland island multi tear deployment by Royal Navy

Pn just want to cover its 350 mile and eco zone in trouble times

Subs may be on offensive to go all the way

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## Reichsmarschall

cant we install Aster 30 in this ship?
@wanglaokan @Gryphon

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## YeBeWarned

khanasifm said:


> Subs may be on offensive to go all the way



I agree, I dont see another reason for possible 11 AIP Subs , to defend a small coast line .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Reichsmarschall said:


> cant we install Aster 30 in this ship?
> @wanglaokan @Gryphon


In theory, yes, but the cost of the Aster 30 (plus radar, other electronics, integration and testing) will probably cost as much as the ship, maybe more. The PN could basically wait for the next gen of Chinese SAMs (e.g. rumoured HQ-26).


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## 帅的一匹

Reichsmarschall said:


> cant we install Aster 30 in this ship?
> @wanglaokan @Gryphon


Anything is possible


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## Gryphon

Reichsmarschall said:


> cant we install Aster 30 in this ship?
> @wanglaokan @Gryphon



Aster 30 is adapted to the Sylver A50 VLS, European electronics, air search and fire control radars & CMS.

In case PN wants Aster 30 on its Type 054A's, all the above mentioned equipment has to be purchased from European vendors (MBDA, DCNS/Naval Group, Thales and Leonardo) and the integration & testing costs are to be endured as well.

Looking at the IDEAS 2016 CSOC frigate model, there is a taller VLS (compared to PLAN Type 054A) and I suspect it could be the new 7m VLS Chinese have developed.

The old VLS was limited by depth to accommodate HHQ-9 and the launch mechanism was 'hot launch' (for HHQ-16, export version LY-80N) and not 'cold launch' (required for the HHQ-9).

The new Chinese VLS is capable of both hot and cold launching missiles, so export versions of HHQ-16 and 6.8m long HHQ-9 are possible, plus Harbah AShM/LACM and ET80 rocket assisted torpedo.

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## ARMalik

I have always proposed that as part of the Naval strategy, Pakistan needs to create a large artificial Island within its sea boundary, just like China. This fortified Island will host warships like 054, fighter jets, missile systems, etc. This will not only give the navy a much better strategic foothold in the Arabian sea, but will enable it to strike and defend a much bigger area within existing resources.

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## 帅的一匹

ARMalik said:


> I have always proposed that as part of the Naval strategy, Pakistan needs to create a large artificial Island within its sea boundary, just like China. This fortified Island will host warships like 054, fighter jets, missile systems, etc. This will not only give the navy a much better strategic foothold in the Arabian sea, but will enable it to strike and defend a much bigger area within existing resources.


China may help in this regards.

Tiankun Dredger

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## ARMalik

wanglaokan said:


> China may help in this regards.
> 
> Tiankun Dredger
> View attachment 479198



Exactly! China has great expertise with artificial Island building. With the PN's existing and planned purchase of frigates and Subs, such an Island can act as huge power projection platform. PN would be able to defend and attack deep into Indian territory. PN can never match Indian Navy on ship to ship ratio. But with such out of box planning, they can become a formidable force capable of defending Pakistan's ports and EEZ.

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## HRK

ARMalik said:


> I have always proposed that as part of the Naval strategy, Pakistan needs to create a large artificial Island within its sea boundary, just like China. This fortified Island will host warships like 054, fighter jets, missile systems, etc. This will not only give the navy a much better strategic foothold in the Arabian sea, but will enable it to strike and defend a much bigger area within existing resources.


if building the artificial island near Pakistan coast is not impossible than it must be near to impossible due the the depth of seabed in Arabian ocean near Pakistan's coat 

*Depth of Indus Fan *





*Location of Indus Fan*





*Depth of Murray Ridge *




*
Location of Murray Ridge 



*

You can observe the depth and location Murray Ridge and Indus fan

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## ARMalik

HRK said:


> if building the artificial island near Pakistan coast is not impossible than it must be near to impossible due the the depth of seabed in Arabian ocean near Pakistan's coat
> 
> *Depth of Indus Fan *
> View attachment 479210
> 
> 
> *Location of Indus Fan*
> View attachment 479212
> 
> 
> *Depth of Murray Ridge *
> View attachment 479211
> 
> *
> Location of Murray Ridge
> View attachment 479229
> *
> 
> You can observe the depth and location Murray Ridge and Indus fan



Yes this may be true but then there are other options, example, create an Island based on *Offshore Oil Rigs technology*. It will serve the same purpose. Based on this tech, this Island can be establish anywhere in the Arabian sea.


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## Armchair

Another option could be to go for a defensive aircraft carrier, in the 8,000 ton (11,000 ton loaded) range. The Soviets had a defensive carrier strategy that would give their subs the needed time to get out of port. 

8000-12000 ton aircraft carriers were common during WW2. Modern, large jets would be hard to mount on such small carriers but WW2 style prop aircraft could work. The flat top superstructure would be a lot cheaper if it didn't have to provide landing for jet aircraft. Using a small number of manned prop fighters (Super tucano types) and a large number of UAVs, UCAVs and a helicopter or 2, you could essentially have a floating island / fleet air defence perimeter. 

Just a wild idea but thought its worth sharing.

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## Basel

Reichsmarschall said:


> cant we install Aster 30 in this ship?
> @wanglaokan @Gryphon



Nope, but possible for customized Miligem.



Starlord said:


> I agree, I dont see another reason for possible 11 AIP Subs , to defend a small coast line .



PN needs submarines for area denial against IN fleet, also they will be used to hit coastal targets with CMs, also they will be the ones to go after IN nuclear submarines.


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## YeBeWarned

Basel said:


> Nope, but possible for customized Miligem.



LF-2400 ? it has its own 16 cell VLS , i wonder if it does have space for Aster III ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Basel said:


> PN needs submarines for area denial against IN fleet, also they will be used to hit coastal targets with CMs, also they will be the ones to go after IN nuclear submarines.



we need to patrol the extended EEZ as well , IN wont be coming close to Pakistani shores .. Looks like PN is looking for another Gazi to create the fear into IN .


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## Basel

Starlord said:


> LF-2400 ? it has its own 16 cell VLS , i wonder if it does have space for Aster III ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> 
> 
> we need to patrol the extended EEZ as well , IN wont be coming close to Pakistani shores .. Looks like PN is looking for another Gazi to create the fear into IN .



All current purchases are meant to cover EEZ, Miligem, FACs, some submarines (numbers depend on requirements), Patrol vessels with airborne assets supported by land assets will cover EEZ, F-22P will be used as per requirements.

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## YeBeWarned

Basel said:


> All current purchases are meant to cover EEZ, Miligem, FACs, some submarines (numbers depend on requirements), Patrol vessels with airborne assets supported by land assets will cover EEZ, F-22P will be used as per requirements.



we cant just rely on Subs to counter subs , we need a proper ASW asset in place , something like Pi8 Poseidon .. IN will have them in numbers which will make our subs valuable .


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## Basel

Starlord said:


> we cant just rely on Subs to counter subs , we need a proper ASW asset in place , something like Pi8 Poseidon .. IN will have them in numbers which will make our subs valuable .



We need something to support P-3s in open seas and EFT or Su-35 fits that position.

Its not as simple to find modern AIP submarine in open seas as many here think, P-8 is capable platform but modern submarine in professional hands can handle that threat.

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## YeBeWarned

Basel said:


> We need something to support P-3s in open seas and EFT or Su-35 fits that position.
> 
> Its not as simple to find modern AIP submarine in open seas as many here think, P-8 is capable platform but modern substance in professional hands can handle that threat.



IN has capable ASW capabilities , we can not just under estimate our enemy , Pi8 is a capable sub hunter . I know Subs are not easy to detect but they are not invincible either , once they are detected its almost over for them . we needs LR-SAM and Flankers with EW suite in place .. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what are other possibilities for PN to handle those Pi8's ?


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## Basel

Starlord said:


> IN has capable ASW capabilities , we can not just under estimate our enemy , Pi8 is a capable sub hunter . I know Subs are not easy to detect but they are not invincible either , once they are detected its almost over for them . we needs LR-SAM and Flankers with EW suite in place .. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what are other possibilities for PN to handle those Pi8's ?



We need submarines which can accommodate 2000km SLCMs, to hit enemy deep or from safe distance but still with 450km CM PN will go after important enemy coastal targets even if it deploy P-8s, its cat and mouse game and cat not always win.

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## ARMalik

Armchair said:


> Another option could be to go for a defensive aircraft carrier, in the 8,000 ton (11,000 ton loaded) range. The Soviets had a defensive carrier strategy that would give their subs the needed time to get out of port.
> 
> 8000-12000 ton aircraft carriers were common during WW2. Modern, large jets would be hard to mount on such small carriers but WW2 style prop aircraft could work. The flat top superstructure would be a lot cheaper if it didn't have to provide landing for jet aircraft. Using a small number of manned prop fighters (Super tucano types) and a large number of UAVs, UCAVs and a helicopter or 2, you could essentially have a floating island / fleet air defence perimeter.
> 
> Just a wild idea but thought its worth sharing.



Armchair exactly. This is the type of out of box thinking the PN in specific, and the military in general needs desperately, and that was the purpose of my earlier posts. The capability to increase loiter time, and strike and defend a much larger area with limited available resources. It can be done, and it should be done.

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## 帅的一匹

Starlord said:


> IN has capable ASW capabilities , we can not just& under estimate our enemy , Pi8 is a capable sub hunter . I know Subs are not easy to detect but they are not invincible either , once they are detected its almost over for them . we needs LR-SAM and Flankers with EW suite in place .. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what are other possibilities for PN to handle those Pi8's ?


all you need to do is to shoot down those P8I at 180-200km distance by deploying Jf17 III with PL15 (dual pulse solid rocket motor)VLRAAm.

india only have 8 P8I.

Jf17III can carry at least 2 PL15 for air superiority.

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## syed_yusuf

Can Pakistan use nuclear power engines on these Subs

French has used nuclear engines on its SSN and those SSN are 2600 tons

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## YeBeWarned

Basel said:


> We need submarines which can accommodate 2000km SLCMs, to hit enemy deep or from safe distance but still with 450km CM PN will go after important enemy coastal targets even if it deploy P-8s, its cat and mouse game and cat not always win.



2000 KM is too much for PN , i think the most they will go is 1000KM which too seems unlikely in near future .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Another option could be to go for a defensive aircraft carrier, in the 8,000 ton (11,000 ton loaded) range. The Soviets had a defensive carrier strategy that would give their subs the needed time to get out of port.
> 
> 8000-12000 ton aircraft carriers were common during WW2. Modern, large jets would be hard to mount on such small carriers but WW2 style prop aircraft could work. The flat top superstructure would be a lot cheaper if it didn't have to provide landing for jet aircraft. Using a small number of manned prop fighters (Super tucano types) and a large number of UAVs, UCAVs and a helicopter or 2, you could essentially have a floating island / fleet air defence perimeter.
> 
> Just a wild idea but thought its worth sharing.


It'd be interesting if the Chinese themselves opt for a basic aircraft carrier - e.g. store, launch and recover - as a means to rapidly build a expeditionary naval air presence. It could still be capable enough to support fast jets via catapults, but if the acquisition and initial support cost is kept within $1bn, it could be doable for the PN. In fact, the Chinese would be ideal partners for this because they can scale the development overhead across many ships. 

PS: I know we're getting 'fanciful' with the carrier talk and all, but sometimes, you have to push for high expectations so as to build incentive and determination to proper in the required inputs (e.g. the economy).

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## Basel

Starlord said:


> 2000 KM is too much for PN , i think the most they will go is 1000KM which too seems unlikely in near future .



Nope, even 2500km is not much for PN as IN is expanding rapidly and will try to have some control over Indian Ocean so PN will need long range strike capabilities also it will put stress on IN assets as they will need to deploy more of them to keep PN substance away from launching CMs.


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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be interesting if the Chinese themselves opt for a basic aircraft carrier - e.g. store, launch and recover - as a means to rapidly build a expeditionary naval air presence. It could still be capable enough to support fast jets via catapults, but if the acquisition and initial support cost is kept within $1bn, it could be doable for the PN. In fact, the Chinese would be ideal partners for this because they can scale the development overhead across many ships.
> 
> PS: I know we're getting 'fanciful' with the carrier talk and all, but sometimes, you have to push for high expectations so as to build incentive and determination to proper in the required inputs (e.g. the economy).



That's what I love to hear - let's at least imagine. You don't know what you are rejecting unless you at least first consider it. The problem with fast jets is that they require a very strong deck for landing and takeoff. For a Super Tucano class, the actual aircraft carrier can be considerably smaller and cheaper. You could even use catapults but even without them, they would work.

If you built a BAe SABA type for the PA, and built some navalized version of them for the PN, you could have an aircraft carrier at about 400 million USD. If you used piston engines rather than turboprops, you could build them cheap. For instance, in the civilian aircraft market, a 4 seater with a turboprop can be about 2 million USD, for the same aircraft, a piston engine costs 1 million USD. 

If you build a SABA with a piston engine, you could build them at 4-6 million USD, all things considered. If you built 100 units for the PA, and 25 for the PN, you'd have a low cost carrier air wing. Add a pair of helicopters for good measure, and you have a bare basic but operational aircraft carrier that can project power and even be used as a diplomatic tool in the Gulf. So, at about 550 million to 600 million, you have a budget, pocket aircraft carrier that can support your naval strike force both defensively and offensively. 

They can hunt incoming cruise missiles, conduct ASW (S-3 Viking type version) take out enemy helicopters and who knows? even enemy fighters, given how the early Harriers fought of much faster jets during the Falklands, this doesn't seem impossible. Particularly with A-Darters and HMDs.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be interesting if the Chinese themselves opt for a basic aircraft carrier - e.g. store, launch and recover - as a means to rapidly build a expeditionary naval air presence. It could still be capable enough to support fast jets via catapults, but if the acquisition and initial support cost is kept within $1bn, it could be doable for the PN. In fact, the Chinese would be ideal partners for this because they can scale the development overhead across many ships.
> 
> PS: I know we're getting 'fanciful' with the carrier talk and all, but sometimes, you have to push for high expectations so as to build incentive and determination to proper in the required inputs (e.g. the economy).



It would be nice if Pakistan could create some artificial islands within its own EEZ. To that effect, recently, a dredger was loaned by China to PN. We should make the best use of it.


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## Bilal Khan 777

wanglaokan said:


> all you need to do is to shoot down those P8I at 180-200km distance by deploying Jf17 III with PL15 (dual pulse solid rocket motor)VLRAAm.
> 
> india only have 8 P8I.
> 
> Jf17III can carry at least 2 PL15 for air superiority.



Their P8I would not be flying without CAP and AEW, and they will have similar BVR options in their package.



Basel said:


> We need submarines which can accommodate 2000km SLCMs, to hit enemy deep or from safe distance but still with 450km CM PN will go after important enemy coastal targets even if it deploy P-8s, its cat and mouse game and cat not always win.



The sea is a large place to find a dinky little submarine lurking at 200 meters with a SLCM load with "other" options.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In theory, yes, but the cost of the Aster 30 (plus radar, other electronics, integration and testing) will probably cost as much as the ship, maybe more. The PN could basically wait for the next gen of Chinese SAMs (e.g. rumoured HQ-26).



ASTER 30 would not be offered for a Chinese platform, unless the combat system is from the same source. Same would be CAMM ER, but combat system would have to be from same source. This will be a problem with most western systems being procured will have some issue when the platform is Eastern sourced.

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Their P8I would not be flying without CAP and AEW, and they will have similar BVR options in their package.
> 
> 
> 
> The sea is a large place to find a dinky little submarine lurking at 200 meters with a SLCM load with "other" options.
> 
> 
> 
> ASTER 30 would not be offered for a Chinese platform, unless the combat system is from the same source. Same would be CAMM ER, but combat system would have to be from same source. This will be a problem with most western systems being procured will have some issue when the platform is Eastern sourced.


AZM comes into play if enemy run CAP and AEW.


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## Storm Force

wanglaokan said:


> AZM comes into play if enemy run CAP and AEW.



IN WHICH DECADE ??? are you talking about

Today the P8 posedion will be escorted by either MIG29K from Navy or SU30MKI from air force

But I don't see the JF17 with a PL15 it does not exist

IF you move to 2022-2024 when you may have this JF17 with PL15
Then India may be escorting P8 with Rafales armed with meteore BVR and French Aesa
Or even F16/70 with Aesa and Amraam C7

YOUR AZM is a million miles away ,,,,,,, By which time India will have added 25 more warships

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## syed_yusuf

Storm Force said:


> IN WHICH DECADE ??? are you talking about
> 
> Today the P8 posedion will be escorted by either MIG29K from Navy or SU30MKI from air force
> 
> But I don't see the JF17 with a PL15 it does not exist
> 
> IF you move to 2022-2024 when you may have this JF17 with PL15
> Then India may be escorting P8 with Rafales armed with meteore BVR and French Aesa
> Or even F16/70 with Aesa and Amraam C7
> 
> YOUR AZM is a million miles away ,,,,,,, By which time India will have added 25 more warships



rafel full ops readiness and numbers are not till 2021
su30mki is not cutting edge anyway 
mig-29K is no F-15 silent eagle

AZM might be a decade away in numbers... but upgraded F-16 and blk3 JFT will be enough to ward off any AIF threats

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## Storm Force

syed_yusuf said:


> rafel full ops readiness and numbers are not till 2021
> su30mki is not cutting edge anyway
> mig-29K is no F-15 silent eagle
> 
> AZM might be a decade away in numbers... but upgraded F-16 and blk3 JFT will be enough to ward off any AIF threats



Bulk 3 JFT is unknown . The Current JFT is so basic it doesn't even carry a HMD or HOBS missle. So lets see what improvements you make in blk 3 first...... There is at lesast a dozen I'm[provememts needed to make the JFT a worthy opponent for IAF top end mki/mirage 2000 or MIG29 fighters. 

As For F16 are these prone to sanctions now our relations have soured with USA and if I recall there are only 18 block 52 the rest are 30 years old base line F16 with outdated engines and radars


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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Bulk 3 JFT is unknown . The Current JFT is so basic it doesn't even carry a HMD or HOBS missle. So lets see what improvements you make in blk 3 first...... There is at lesast a dozen I'm[provememts needed to make the JFT a worthy opponent for IAF top end mki/mirage 2000 or MIG29 fighters.
> 
> As For F16 are these prone to sanctions now our relations have soured with USA and if I recall there are only 18 block 52 the rest are 30 years old base line F16 with outdated engines and radars



Don't you worry about it storm we got it covered trust me on that ….

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## Storm Force

TOPGUN said:


> Don't you worry about it storm we got it covered trust me on that ….




lol


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## Taimur Khurram

Storm Force said:


> if I recall there are only 18 block 52 the rest are 30 years old base line F16 with outdated engines and radars



45 of them were upgraded extensively to block 50 standard. The remaining 13 are the Jordanian F-16's (no clue what state they're in).


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## BHarwana

dsr478 said:


> 45 of them were upgraded extensively to block 50 standard. The remaining 13 are the Jordanian F-16's (no clue what state they're in).

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## syed_yusuf

Storm Force said:


> Bulk 3 JFT is unknown . The Current JFT is so basic it doesn't even carry a HMD or HOBS missle. So lets see what improvements you make in blk 3 first...... There is at lesast a dozen I'm[provememts needed to make the JFT a worthy opponent for IAF top end mki/mirage 2000 or MIG29 fighters.
> 
> As For F16 are these prone to sanctions now our relations have soured with USA and if I recall there are only 18 block 52 the rest are 30 years old base line F16 with outdated engines and radars





Storm Force said:


> Bulk 3 JFT is unknown . The Current JFT is so basic it doesn't even carry a HMD or HOBS missle. So lets see what improvements you make in blk 3 first...... There is at lesast a dozen I'm[provememts needed to make the JFT a worthy opponent for IAF top end mki/mirage 2000 or MIG29 fighters.
> 
> As For F16 are these prone to sanctions now our relations have soured with USA and if I recall there are only 18 block 52 the rest are 30 years old base line F16 with outdated engines and radars



Please first upgrade ur junk mig29 to upgrade, upgrade ur mirage to -5 and then talk about what match what not. 

Till then IAF haven't advantage.

There is a block 4 in planning also for jft

By then u upgrade all 80's IAF junk PAF will be rolling off AZM

so relax

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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> lol



Lolz lamo

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