# PNS Azmat Class - Fast Attack Missile Craft | Updates & Discussions.



## HAIDER

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the Chief Guest at the launching ceremony of the 1st Fast Attack Craft (Missile) being built for Pakistan Navy here at Xingang Shipyard, Tianjin, China. 

He said that the project of Fast Attack Craft (Missile) construction represents a quantum leap, not only in Defence Production in naval Sector of Pakistan, but also will meet the long standing operational requirement of Pakistan Navy for the Fast Attack Crafts. 

AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile) has a crew of 12 to 14 sailors which is less than half that of similar FAC(M). Each FAC(M) will cost of around $50 million each. 

PNS AZMAT is speculated to be a 500-600 ton, 60-meter Fast Attack Craft (Missile) which will be equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles. 

First Fast Attack Craft (Missile) will be called AZMAT FAC(M) and it is scheduled to be delivered to Pakistan Navy Fleet by April 2012. These ships will be known as AZMAT Class FAC(M)s in service with Pakistan Navy. 

Chief of Naval Staff said that induction of Missile Crafts will supplement Pakistan Navys warfare capabilties He cherished the hard work put in by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSOC) and Pakistan Navy team in realizing the construction of the ship in a short time. 

Admiral Noman Bashir said, Pak-China relationship is unique and does not draw any parallel in the world. This relationship over the years has matured in all fields, particularly in defence. He said that production of the second Fast Attack Craft (Missile) in Pakistan will also be accomplished with the active help of our Chinese friends. 

*AZMAT Fast Attack Craft (Missile) is equipped with C802A Surface-to-Surface Anti-Ship Missiles which has a range of 180 kilometers. AZMAT FAC(M) uses latest stealthy features to avoide detection from long ranges. force. Admiral Noman Bashir said that AZMAT FAC(M) is equipped with the high tech weapons and sensors to preform extremely versatile missions. 

*
When China says a ship is launched means is the ship is almost ready. This ship will be handed to Pakistani brothers half years later (April, 2012) as scheduled.

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## Peshwa

Looks slick....

Should add a much needed punch to the Pak Navy

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## Imran Khan

thanks dear HAIDER its huge man wow i like it


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## Nav

Ya imran bhai its look huge, is that stealth design or what?


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## Imran Khan

Nav said:


> Ya imran bhai its look huge, is that stealth design or what?


dear i can't say its stealth i don't know navy much .


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## IceCold

What about the air defense system? Nothing is mentioned on what system does it use to protect itself from enemy air attack?


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## Imran Khan

IceCold said:


> What about the air defense system? Nothing is mentioned on what system does it use to protect itself from enemy air attack?



i am really sick why pakistan don't care abut air defense ?


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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> i am really sick why pakistan don't care abut air defense ?



Sir jee,

They might add a few anti-aircraft guns....but thats it......it's a 500 ton boat.......our 2000 tons+ ships don't have much air defense...let alone these FACs.......

On a side note....50 million $ for FACs ain't cheap........when F-22Ps cost around 200Million $ for 2,500 tons....seems like Chinese have a flat rate of 10 Tons for 1-2 million$

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> i am really sick why pakistan don't care abut air defense ?


It is not so much about caring as it is about being offered a system(forget a decent one!!!) at a reasonable price that does not break the bank. To this date PN has not been offered any such system and the ones that could have been offered are prohibitively expensive. Things might change in the next 3-5 yrs, but at the moment we need to soldier on!!
Araz

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## IceCold

araz said:


> It is not so much about caring as it is about being offered a system(forget a decent one!!!) at a reasonable price that does not break the bank. To this date PN has not been offered any such system and the ones that could have been offered are prohibitively expensive. Things might change in the next 3-5 yrs, but at the moment we need to soldier on!!
> Araz



True sir. It all comes down to money. If we have money, we can buy the best system the world has to offer however i cannot understand one thing. What exactly will a ship do without a proper air defense system, specially since in our case we don't have a dedicated naval air wing to protect our assets from Indian attack.

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## razgriz19

does it atleast carry CIWS??


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## VelocuR

pardon me, how many Pakistan order FACs?

Just two??? 



> does it atleast carry CIWS??



Yes, you missed it. Please see picture above, the CIWS gun is in the front side to be used as for offensive, not defensive.



> The vessel is equipped with eight YJ-83 anti-ship missiles housed in two large missile launch complexes at the stern. On the front deck locates a Russian AK-630 30mm close-in weapon system (CIWS) for short-range air defence. There are also two 4-cell tube launchers on the bow deck, possibly for launching decoys/chaffs.




-----------------------------
by the way, this picture shown above is not the same as the requested FACS (blue) ??


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## Dil Pakistan

O, bhai, batein choro yar. Picture dikhao, picture. Public ko pictures dekhnee hein.

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## araz

IceCold said:


> True sir. It all comes down to money. If we have money, we can buy the best system the world has to offer however i cannot understand one thing. What exactly will a ship do without a proper air defense system, specially since in our case we don't have a dedicated naval air wing to protect our assets from Indian attack.



When you cant have something you do without it. You will rely on CIWS to shoot down any approaching missiles ,but cannot do much against multiple attacks

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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> i am really sick why pakistan don't care abut air defense ?


it should b equipped with a very effective short range defence system against antiship missiles and aircrafts named FM-90 if not then definitely the QW-1 Vanguard

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------




IceCold said:


> True sir. It all comes down to money. If we have money, we can buy the best system the world has to offer however i cannot understand one thing. What exactly will a ship do without a proper air defense system, specially since in our case we don't have a dedicated naval air wing to protect our assets from Indian attack.


airdefence requires large ships that why we should focus on an airarm..i think jf-17 could be excellent for this role..

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## TOPGUN

Can't wait to see pic's when its fully built and in with our PN.


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## Desert Fox

how many of these are we getting?


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## Areesh

SilentNinja said:


> how many of these are we getting?



Most probably three of such FAC's would be procured.

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## Desert Fox

Areesh said:


> Most probably three of such FAC's would be procured.



I was hoping we would get at least around 7 of these.


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## Areesh

SilentNinja said:


> I was hoping we would get at least around 7 of these.


 
Might be later the number would be increased but for now 3 would be procured.

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## Donatello

SilentNinja said:


> I was hoping we would get at least around 7 of these.



At 50 Million $ a piece, they ain't cheap......3 seems like a reasonable number....but 7 seems a bit big...considering we can buy another F-22P frigate for cost of 4 FACs......

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## Guest

IceCold said:


> True sir. It all comes down to money. If we have money, we can buy the best system the world has to offer however i cannot understand one thing. What exactly will a ship do without a proper air defense system, specially since in our case we don't have a dedicated naval air wing to protect our assets from Indian attack.


 
FACs use a very effective measure to "counter" air strike: RUN! In most case, they will return to base at once if there is any red spot appears on the radar (although they don't have powerful radars, but they do have datalinks). This is what they are good at in breaking blockage from enemy frigates or destories.

on the other hand, if they were used to engage an enemy Carrier group, they won't do that alone. They will be supportd by friendly planes and ships, since they are not the primary targets for the enemy, they will be quite secure(untill they got deceted). In this case, all these mobile missile siloes have to do are hide and shoot.

In short, FACs are designed for deffence role in an secure area not to infiltrate into a hostile area for offensive missions. so, for FACS, air defence system is not as important as those in the lager warships.

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## mymeaningislion

an upgraded anza series missile can be used for air defence........ other wise chinese and pak are working for new generations of air defence................ i know because the software engineer is my teacher........... worry not for air defence

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## HANI

mymeaningislion said:


> an upgraded anza series missile can be used for air defence........ other wise chinese and pak are working for new generations of air defence................ i know because the software engineer is my teacher........... worry not for air defence


brother can u give us some details of this defence system or atleast when it b revealed ?????

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## Cool_Soldier

There were reports before signing contract for development of initial two FAC boats that another two will be built one in Pakistan and other in china once first two are completed.Now one is launched while other is underdevelopment in Karachi.
So hopefully,* total four* will be acquired from China.


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## Secur

^^ Scroll back a few pages bro


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## Penguin

Just to get the idea

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## Rafi

Penguin said:


> Just to get the idea



Penguin bro- what do you think? I am impressed by it's stealthy shape.


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## Cool_Soldier

Masha Allah nice stealthy shape.I guess something is hidden in green sheet cover at front and at rare that could be weapon system?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Are these some sort of serial production ? or we get 10 boats etc


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## twocents

News reports I have seen only mention two. The second vessel will be built in Karachi.


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## Roybot

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Are these some sort of serial production ? or we get 10 boats etc



Depends if Pakistan is ready to spend 500 Million dollars.


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## monitor

roy_gourav said:


> Depends if Pakistan is ready to spend 500 Million dollars.



not necessary Pakistan will pay by installment .


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## Lord Of Gondor

Will this be like bomber(B17) rather than a fighter bomber(Pseries) in the sea as it does not have SAM systems on board.
Will it require escorts on firing runs?
If yes then which would be providing the necessary AA cover?(Zulfiqar class or the OHP class frigates Or any other??)


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## kobiraaz

build them fast. BANGLADESH is on the serial

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## Battle Axe

In what numbers are we aquiring this?


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## Cool_Soldier

Agreement signed last year December was for two FAC. But it was said by Defence source that time that after completion of first two FAC another two will be built on same pattern.Hope you got answer.

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## Cool_Soldier

why Indian are worried about dollars and uplift of our people life.?
Just look at your poverty ratio and defence budget.
we buy 2 or 10, does it matter you?


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## mymeaningislion

HANI said:


> brother can u give us some details of this defence system or atleast when it b revealed ?????



bro threat perception is a old terminology yet important one you cannot let a worthy asset in the sea without an air cover and for installing air defense system you only need some modifications and as far as its radar is concerned it is pretty decent with datalink capability for environment analysis and threat awareness. and its special surface and design makes it difficult to detect ............its a good choice but it can be even better with little improvisation that is being done.

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## HANI

mymeaningislion said:


> bro threat perception is a old terminology yet important one you cannot let a worthy asset in the sea without an air cover and for installing air defense system you only need some modifications and as far as its radar is concerned it is pretty decent with datalink capability for environment analysis and threat awareness. and its special surface and design makes it difficult to detect ............its a good choice but it can be even better with little improvisation that is being done.


thanx alot brother


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## Penguin

Similar to South Korea's PKG-A (Gumdoksuri / Yun Youngha class), if perhaps not as fast and well armed.

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## Donatello

Penguin said:


> Similar to South Korea's PKG-A (Gumdoksuri / Yun Youngha class), if perhaps not as fast and well armed.



Arming a ship would be a relative task.....let's see how much space we can squeeze on these boats for weapons......


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## Penguin

Well, obivoulsy not a whole lot more. The main characteristics for the FAC according to tender as follows:
-Full load displacement of 500-600 tons
-Overall length of 60 meters (196.8ft)
-Radius of action equal to or greater than 500 nautical miles, max speed 30 knots
-Complement of 55-60 personnel
-And fitted with the following weapon and sensor systems:
-8 Chinese C-802A SSMs
-Two 25mm close range semi-automatic EO/IR AA guns
-Two 12.7mm machine guns
-Chaff and IR


Compares to the ROKN ship as follows
Armament
ï¿½ Otobreda 76 mm gun
ï¿½ Doosan Infracore 40L70K dual 40mm gun
ï¿½ 4 x SSM-700K Hae Sung anti-ship cruise missile
ï¿½ KP-SAM Shingung (Mistral-like MANPADS)

Propulsion: CODAG, 2 x General Electric LM500 gas turbine, 2 x MTU 12V 595 TE90; Water jet propulsion 
Speed: 41.5 knots (76.9 km/h; 47.8 mph) 

I see no reason the Korean ship couldn't carry 2x4 SSM instead of 2x2 but I do see that the tender for the FAC for Pakistan is for a slower ship, with a twin 25mm cannon up front and a pair of HMG on the superstructure and no MANPADS.


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## fatman17

if i remember, the old AZMAT class FAC were smaller boats (205 tons). so the new AZMAT class is an improvement over those in every way.


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## Aamir Hussain

A bit disappointed with the speed. Traditional FAC's are in thr 35 to 40 Knot speed category


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## monitor

from its size its seems more a corvette the FAC .


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## Roybot

monitor said:


> from its size its seems more a corvette the FAC .



I don't think it depends on the size of the ship, its the weapons and the role is meant for.

Sukanya class patrol vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At 1900 tons Would these be classified as frigates then?


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## lawxx

Chinese stealth missile boats built in Pakistan is this,

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2011 


*Pakistan's first Azmat-class FAC launched by China*

Kate Tringham Naval Reporter - London



State-owned enterprise China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation launched the first of two Azmat-class fast attack craft (FAC) on order for the Pakistan Navy on 20 September. 

Azmat was built at Xingang Shipyard in Tianjin, China, under a government-to-government contract signed in 2010 for the provision of two 60 m FACs equipped with surface-to-surface missiles. 

Under the contract terms, the second of the two 500-600 ton vessels will be built at Karachi Shipyard in Pakistan with China's co-operation. 

Construction of the lead ship began in March 2011. According to the Associated Press of Pakistan, it is expected to enter service by April 2012. 

It has a crew of 12 to 14 - less than half that of similar craft - and is equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 'Saccade' anti-ship missiles. Images purported to be of the vessel show it to have an angled, slab-sided 'stealth-like' superstructure, but no other details have been confirmed. 

Speaking at the launch ceremony, Pakistan's Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Noman Bashir, was quoted by local media as saying that the Azmat class represented a "quantum leap" not only in defence production for the country's maritime industrial sector, but also in addressing a long-standing operational requirement of the Pakistan Navy. 

Adm Bashir said the project had also opened new avenues of collaboration, and represented yet another milestone in defence co-operation between China and Pakistan.


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## Penguin

fatman17 said:


> if i remember, the old AZMAT class FAC were smaller boats (205 tons). so the new AZMAT class is an improvement over those in every way.


Agree, but for top speed. Essentially, the new Azmat's apparent role would appear to be that of a patrol vessel (hence the light gun armament) but with sufficient speed and antiship missile armament to operate in unison with larger units e.g. F22P. A good coastal defence asset (tasked 90% patrol ship + 10% seamobile coastal missile battery). To operate under cover of landbased air defence assets (hence little AAW capability). Can't tell if she'ld get any ASW gear.


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## nomi007

why we did not select type 22 fac of china

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## monitor

I think Pakistan prefer endurance to speed .


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## Cool_Soldier

I think, some of our dear member like design of type 022 FAC.Don't worry we will get those soon for coastal defensive role.
But current FAC have long range about 500-600 nm equipped with C802A, so can be used to defend as well as offense.Some of enemy naval port are just 200 nm away from our coastal areas.So it is better decision to have these FAC in reasonable number to co ordinate with frigate.


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## Manticore

The World's Navies classifies the ships as follows:
Cruisers: +10,000 tons
Light Cruisers: 5000 to 10,000 tons
Destroyers: 3000 to 4000 tons
Frigates: 1100 to 3000 tons
Corvettes: 500 to 1100 tons
FAC: +25 Knots
Large PC: 100 to 500 tons
Coastal PC: -500 tons

PNS AZMAT is speculated to be a 500-600 ton and max speed 30 knots





i reckon we were once considering greater displacement Milgem

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## THE MASK




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## Cool_Soldier

The above article is about Chinese 200 ton Type 022 Craft while Pakistan is getting 500-600 ton class new designed Craft.That is something totally different.


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## Penguin

ANTIBODY said:


> The World's Navies classifies the ships as follows:
> Cruisers: +10,000 tons
> Light Cruisers: 5000 to 10,000 tons
> Destroyers: 3000 to 4000 tons
> Frigates: 1100 to 3000 tons
> Corvettes: 500 to 1100 tons
> FAC: +25 Knots
> Large PC: 100 to 500 tons
> Coastal PC: -500 tons



If so, these are likely standard displacement figures, not full load displacement figures.

Just looking at frigates, most frigates of the last 20-30 years are between 3000 and 4500 tons (excluding the most recent 'frigates' displacing 6000 tons). E.g. Dutch Van Speijk, Kortenaer (S-), Heemskerck (L-) and Doorman (M-) class frigates, German Bremen (F122) class, Meko 200 in all variations

Acknowledged corvettes e.g. Italian Minerva & Commandante, Israeli Saar 5, German Braunschweig K-130, Malaysian Meko-100 are all well over 1100 tons.

Top-end FACM's are 500-700 tons these days. See e.g. Turkish and Singaporean navies.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

roy_gourav said:


> I don't think it depends on the size of the ship, its the weapons and the role is meant for.
> 
> Sukanya class patrol vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> At 1900 tons Would these be classified as frigates then?


 
They are officially Offshore Patrol Vessels, hence the letter P before the pennant numbers... of course missiles can be installed, and indeed there have been, as test beds on India ships and with YJ-82 on SLNS Sayura in the Sri Lankan Navy.


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## aimarraul



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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> The World's Navies classifies the ships as follows:
> Cruisers: +10,000 tons
> Light Cruisers: 5000 to 10,000 tons
> Destroyers: 3000 to 4000 tons
> Frigates: 1100 to 3000 tons
> Corvettes: 500 to 1100 tons
> FAC: +25 Knots
> Large PC: 100 to 500 tons
> Coastal PC: -500 tons
> 
> PNS AZMAT is speculated to be a 500-600 ton and max speed 30 knots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i reckon we were once considering greater displacement Milgem



turkish stuff is not cheap!!!

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## Cool_Soldier

The First FAC took about 6 month to complete.By seeing this time,hopefully second under construction will be launched by December 2011.
Anyone knows about Milgem corvette deal with turkey.Is it still underway?


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## Penguin

nomi007 said:


> why we did not select type 22 fac of china



This is not a PATROL unit but an ATTACK unit (with little if any other use)


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## aziqbal

plus Type22 is only good when used in large numbers in conjunction with each other, also they have tiny radars and are of no use to PN, they simply do not fit into PN doctrine


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## abaseen99

China provides Azmat Class FAC for the Pakistan Navy
Posted on 10 October 2011 by admin 


2011-10-10 (China Military News cited from http://www.grandestrategy.com/2011/10/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-for.html">grandestrategy.com and by Meinhaj Hussain) -- The Pakistan Navy is slated to receive its first Azmat Class Fast Attack Craft (FAC) from China in within 6 months. These boats are not to be confused with the older Azmat class which are less than half the tonnage and are significantly less capable ships. The Azmat class will be the first stealth FACs in the Subcontinent. They will be superior in every way to the Indian Navy counterparts. To date however, only two such ships have been ordered. A follow on order for two more are also likely.
Of the two boats ordered, one is being built in China and another is being built in Pakistan. These boats are well-armed although somewhat lacking in air defense, a typical problem with smaller boats of this type. The ships are designed to have both a defensive and offensive capability. Herein lies the advantage of these boats - with many Indian ports within 200 miles of Pakistan, the Azmat Class's 500 nautical mile range and 110 mile C-802 range makes these boats an effective threat along with her traditional defensive coastal role. The ship is further equiped with a modern networked C4I system that will be a force multiplier in terms of network-centric warfare, utilizing the sensors of other ships, aircraft and PN assets.
A question is often asked why the PN did not by the Type 022 Houbei Class FACs. While these boats are faster and stealthy, they have significantly less range and are also more dependent on external guidance and sensors. Their hull design is also not as suited for poor weather conditions at sea. These imply that they would be less effective for the Pakistan Navy. The Type 022 are also significantly smaller boats. In comparison, the 022 pursues closely the Soviet doctrine of missile boats which also require large numbers. In comparison, the Azmat Class is closer to an OPV (Offshore Petrol Vehicle) suitable for a wide variety of roles as an OPV and a missile boat. In fact, this author speculates that they may later even utilize ship-launched UAVs.
One notable characteristic of the Azmat Class is that it uses nearly half the crew for a similar sized / category ship. This shows how advanced automation has reached Chinese naval development and will significantly lower the cost of operating these boats. They also would lower the casualty count in case of war.
The Azmat Class is considered slower than some contemporary missile boats, although of similar speed to Corvettes and OPVs. The length of the ship in relation to the bow wave creates an optimal speed when the latter is nearly the same length as the former. At this speed the drag is lower, giving the ship greater endurance. 30 knots is thus a compromise and a an ideal "sweet spot" for a ship that is 60 meters in length. Further, this represents only open source information and it may be the ship can run faster when needed at wartime.
The CIWS for the ship remains a mystery. It is believed that this is represented by two 25mm automated guns. The author's unqualified and non-technical wish is to have a more effective CIWS, perhaps the 10 barreled CIWS recently shown on China's new aircraft carrier, the Shi-Lang. The author admits that this may be wishful thinking considering the size of the Azmat Class.However, if the traditional main gun is seen as dispensable, such a CIWS may serve in the "A" position up front.
At $50 million, the Azmat Class is a moderately priced ship that is well-balanced in her traits and able to play multiple roles, a quality rare for her class. The ship provides both stealth and automation that breaks new standards. Capable of both defensive and offensive operations, the Azmat class will play a small but important role in the Pakistan Navy.


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## Penguin

abaseen99 said:


> China provides Azmat Class FAC for the Pakistan Navy
> 
> The CIWS for the ship remains a mystery. It is believed that this is represented by two 25mm automated guns. The author's unqualified and non-technical wish is to have a more effective CIWS, perhaps the 10 barreled CIWS recently shown on China's new aircraft carrier, the Shi-Lang. The author admits that this may be wishful thinking considering the size of the Azmat Class.However, if the traditional main gun is seen as dispensable, such a CIWS may serve in the "A" position up front.



It is a twin 25mm mount, the base of which is similar to the AK630 and the business end is similar to the zu-23. It is common on PLA Army (not navy) river patrol boats. It is manually trained and elevated. As such it is a naval gun system but not all naval gun systems might be considered a 'close in weapon system', which for purists would be a system capable of performing search, detect, evaluation, track, engage and kill assessment functions.


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## Cool_Soldier

Any news for further order of two more these FACs...?


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## acetophenol

congrats to pn.
whats the meaning of that name?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Azmat= greatness 

if i understood ur quesion rightly

TARIQ


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## acetophenol

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Azmat= greatness
> 
> if i understood ur quesion rightly
> 
> TARIQ



got it boss!
thank you!

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## Emmie

acetophenol said:


> congrats to pn.
> whats the *meaning of that name*?



Azmat means "magnificence", "grandeur" or "greatness"

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## SBD-3



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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> Any news for further order of two more these FACs...?



1 will be built in china, the other in karachi dockyards

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------




Cool_Soldier said:


> The First FAC took about 6 month to complete.By seeing this time,hopefully second under construction will be launched by December 2011.
> *Anyone knows about Milgem corvette deal with turkey.Is it still underway*?



PN not interested.

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## MJaa

fatman17 said:


> 1 will be built in china, the other in karachi dockyards
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> PN not interested.



First Chinese Type 056 is already under construction and given recent PN purchases i am guessing it will be front runner in Pakistani Corvette competition 







> PNS AZMAT Fast Attack Craft (Missile) will be delivered to Pakistan Navy by April 2012.
> Read more: PNS AZMAT Fast Attack Craft (Missile) Launched ~ Pakistan Military Review
> SecondFast Attack Missile Craft (FAMC) will join PN before the end of 2012.
> Read more: Fast Attack Missile Craft (FAMC) Launched in Karachi ~ Pakistan Military Review

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## Penguin

MJaa said:


> First Chinese Type 056 is already under construction and given recent PN purchases i am guessing it will be front runner in Pakistani Corvette competition



IMage shows Dutch designed and built Sigma corvette, order by Indonesia and Morocco

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## MJaa

Penguin said:


> IMage shows Dutch designed and built Sigma corvette, order by Indonesia and Morocco











Planned Chinese version looks very similar to the Sigma corvette
Here are few pictures

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## Aamir Hussain

The fact remains that the snap shown is not that of the Chinese Corvette.;-) Thank you Penguin for the clarification


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## MJaa

Aamir Hussain said:


> The fact remains that the snap shown is not that of the Chinese Corvette.;-)



No doubt, Penguin did help in finding something really close to what Chinese will be producing

Fact remains that China is producing Type 056 which may end up in PN service


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## Myth_buster_1

10 of these things is better then 4 of f-22p. why? because they are small harder to detect and carry about the same armament and the electronic warfare system does not really matter since the once on f-22p is just a joke. even my kitchen microwave has more potential of jamming enemy's electronics then f-22p.


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## SBD-3

Myth_buster_1 said:


> 10 of these things is better then 4 of f-22p. why? because they are small harder to detect and carry about the same armament and the electronic warfare system does not really matter since the once on f-22p is just a joke. *even my kitchen microwave has more potential of jamming enemy's electronics then f-22p.*


Have you been farting too much recently??

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## Aamir Hussain

MJaa said:


> No doubt, Penguin did help in finding something really close to what Chinese will be producing
> 
> Fact remains that China is producing Type 056 which may end up in PN service



The "Fact" is yet to be turned into a "Fact," and that, my friend, is a fact!;-) The operating word is "May" here.


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## Penguin

The interesting aspect about Sigma is the scalability of the design

Variants






Light frigate variant

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## Penguin

Second Morrocan Sigma











Royal Moroccan Armed Forces(Photos & Videos) - Page 45

Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) has successfully completed the sea acceptance trials (SAT) for the second SIGMA class frigate of the Royal Moroccan navy in the North Sea, the company announced Tuesday, November 22nd 2011.

Sigma ships are in service in service with Indonesian and Moroccan navies. The first Chines Type 056 has yet to hit the water...

Moroccan Navy
http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Moroccan-Navy/SIGMA-9813-class.htm
http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Moroccan-Navy/F-613-RMNS-Tarik-Ben-Ziad.htm

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## Penguin

Type 056


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## houshanghai

link

????-2012-01A_????_????

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## Donatello

Any specs about the processing systems/radar? Like how will the missiles be guided?


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## Imran Khan

penumbra said:


> Any specs about the processing systems/radar? Like how will the missiles be guided?



on back pages yaar 5 hi to hai zara dekh leen .itni susti achi nhi hoti


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## kafumanpk

Very nice boat, it can reduce radar reflection.


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## [--Leo--]

why it is so heavier than chines FAC and why air defence is not installed?


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## regular

hasnain0099 said:


> Have you been farting too much recently??


Yes! He surely is.I'm smelling it here too.....


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## fatman17

MJaa said:


> No doubt, Penguin did help in finding something really close to what Chinese will be producing
> 
> *Fact* remains that China is producing Type 056 which may end up in PN service



fact is that this fact remains as mere speculation!

---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------




penumbra said:


> Any specs about the processing systems/radar? Like how will the missiles be guided?



top secret man as of now!


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## kafumanpk

[--Leo--];2463825 said:


> why it is so heavier than chines FAC and why air defence is not installed?


 
Because it is the missile boats. Indonesia's missile boats and it is very similar.


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## Penguin

[--Leo--];2463825 said:


> why it is so heavier than chines FAC and why air defence is not installed?


Because it is a patrol boat, not an attack craft. PBs need to be able to stay out at sea longer, in more kinds of weather. So, they need better sea keeping, sufficient fuel, crew comforts than attack boats. Hence they are made bigger than chinese FAC (= more stability in adverse seas, more fuel and supplies, bigger crew, more extensive crew cabins and galley etc).

Patrolling is typically a peace time activity: guns are most usefull, SAM not needed (in wartime air cover is provided by land based aviation, SAM cover by larger ships, MANPADS may be carrier on board).

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## Tehmasib

HAIDER said:


> Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the Chief Guest at the launching ceremony of the 1st Fast Attack Craft (Missile) being built for Pakistan Navy here at Xingang Shipyard, Tianjin, China.
> 
> He said that the project of Fast Attack Craft (Missile) construction represents a quantum leap, not only in Defence Production in naval Sector of Pakistan, but also will meet the long standing operational requirement of Pakistan Navy for the Fast Attack Crafts.
> 
> AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile) has a crew of 12 to 14 sailors which is less than half that of similar FAC(M). Each FAC(M) will cost of around $50 million each.
> 
> PNS AZMAT is speculated to be a 500-600 ton, 60-meter Fast Attack Craft (Missile) which will be equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles.
> 
> First Fast Attack Craft (Missile) will be called AZMAT FAC(M) and it is scheduled to be delivered to Pakistan Navy Fleet by April 2012. These ships will be known as AZMAT Class FAC(M)s in service with Pakistan Navy.
> 
> Chief of Naval Staff said that induction of Missile Crafts will supplement Pakistan Navys warfare capabilties He cherished the hard work put in by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSOC) and Pakistan Navy team in realizing the construction of the ship in a short time.
> 
> Admiral Noman Bashir said, Pak-China relationship is unique and does not draw any parallel in the world. This relationship over the years has matured in all fields, particularly in defence. He said that production of the second Fast Attack Craft (Missile) in Pakistan will also be accomplished with the active help of our Chinese friends.
> 
> *AZMAT Fast Attack Craft (Missile) is equipped with C802A Surface-to-Surface Anti-Ship Missiles which has a range of 180 kilometers. AZMAT FAC(M) uses latest stealthy features to avoide detection from long ranges. force. Admiral Noman Bashir said that AZMAT FAC(M) is equipped with the high tech weapons and sensors to preform extremely versatile missions.
> 
> *
> When China says a ship is launched means is the ship is almost ready. This ship will be handed to Pakistani brothers half years later (April, 2012) as scheduled.



can any body tells us that this is real pic (1013) of azmat for Pakistan ......thanks in advance


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## Penguin

Tehmasib said:


> can any body tells us that this is real pic (1013) of azmat for Pakistan ......thanks in advance


AFAIK it is real. Why?


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## Tehmasib

Penguin said:


> AFAIK it is real. Why?



coz bro its looking huge ship......great for me


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## killerx

bros which one is it the stealth one or the big one i am getting confused here


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## noob101

The ship that is shown in the Photo looks more than 500 tons. it says that the crew complement is 10 -12 which is not possilbe.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

killerx said:


> bros which one is it the stealth one or the big one i am getting confused here


 
Plz see the previous page, that is PNS AZMAT patral boat; it has some stealthy(radar reduction) features, but it is not "invisible"...

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## abaseen99




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## Nishan_101

Although it would be much better for the PN to JV with Chinese on FACs, Corvettes/mine hunters based on corvettes and frigates as well. Although we need around 11+ to 16 of such FACs, it would be great to produce all the FACs, Corvettes and Frigates at home.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If Pakistan Navy can operate 20-30 Fast Attack boats with SAM defence on 30% it would be ideal case for our Navy


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## Nishan_101

Although it would be much better for the PN to JV with Chinese on FACs, Corvettes/mine hunters based on corvettes and frigates as well. Although we need around 11+ to 16 of such FACs, it would be great to produce all the FACs, Corvettes and Frigates at home.


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Although it would be much better for the PN to JV with Chinese on FACs, Corvettes/mine hunters based on corvettes and frigates as well. Although we need around 11+ to 16 of such FACs, it would be great to produce all the FACs, Corvettes and Frigates at home.



N101 i have been following your e-mails - from where do you get these procurement figures for ships, jets, helos etc.?


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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> N101 i have been following your e-mails - from where do you get these procurement figures for ships, jets, helos etc.?



Thanks a lot. LOlz. Sir this just my assumptions. I think a bigger and better Navy can protect our seas and coast much better.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Fast Attack boats can pose a serious threat to slow moving Ships no doubt specially if they are stealth they can come do the job and move out in darkness of night

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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> Thanks a lot. LOlz. Sir this just my assumptions. I think a bigger and better Navy can protect our seas and coast much better.



bigger navies will not only be expensive but procure but keeping them operational, the fuel and crew costs, the maintenance works all need to be accounted for..

some frigates with better AAW capabilities muct be acquired and these patrol boats and fast attack missile boats armed with long range anti ship missiles will be good to defend our sea.

for attack purpose, we need a better submarine fleet. with the news of PN going for misisles equipped QING subs and a possible rumor of a N-submarine, that seem well enough.

regards!

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## Nishan_101

arsalanaslam123 said:


> bigger navies will not only be expensive but procure but keeping them operational, the fuel and crew costs, the maintenance works all need to be accounted for..
> 
> some frigates with better AAW capabilities muct be acquired and these patrol boats and fast attack missile boats armed with long range anti ship missiles will be good to defend our sea.
> 
> for attack purpose, we need a better submarine fleet. with the news of PN going for misisles equipped QING subs and a possible rumor of a N-submarine, that seem well enough.
> 
> regards!



You are absolutely right. I also meant that but we must also have a good surface fleet and submerge fleet too.
4 F-22Ps
5 Type-54Bs
11 Corvettes
5 Mine Hunters
16+ FACs
11+ SSKs
3 SSBNs

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## Penguin

There is no Type 054B, only fan-art


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

...

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

Looks like there is an AK-630M styled CIWS with a low RCS design mount installed at rear.

At front on the forecastle, a twin 14.5/25mm? gun seems to be installed.

Not sure why the boat doesn't have an automatic cannon as a main gun, such as 76mm cannon (too heavy or doesn't fit its mission profile?) or another AK-630M CIWS (too costly? surely can't be...) installed at front.

Only if China were to have an automatic naval 57mm main gun similar to this 57-mm Mk 110 Naval Gun System http://www.sanders.com/ProductsServices/l_and_a_sea_mk110.html, then it would be very good news for these small patrol vessels in the future.


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## Penguin

Forward: manually laid, optically (mk 1 eyeball + mechanical gunsight?) aimed Chinese twin 25mm cannon development based on Zu-23-2 (common on PLA Army riverine patrol boats), using AK630-like mounting base. 
Rear: AK630 radar / optically aimed close in AAA 30mm gatling gun

This is a patrol boat, for policing duties. Hence the 25mm twin forward, which is primarily for dealing with slow surface targets. Though the ship has AShM missiles, it is not meant primarily as attack boat. If it finds itself facing a larger naval ship, it has the teath to stand its ground but it probably will (and should, in order to live and fight another day) turn tail and run for (air) cover after missile launch. Hence, putting the AK630 in the rear makes sense. The AK630 can engage surface targets but is primarily an anti-missile last ditch self defence weapon. By having 2 mounts, all round coverage is achieved.

PLA Army Type 529 patrol boat info and pics: 
http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=3245.0

It is interesting that this particular 25mm twin was adopted since China also has a new dedicated single 25mm naval mount and a new dedicated single 30mm naval mount.

25mm mount: http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=4863.0
30mm mount: http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5642.0


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## killerx

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> ...



is this the one paskitan buying from china so called azmat

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## Arsalan

_First Fast Attack Craft is expected to be delivered by April 2012._





_Radar Mast_

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## Penguin

Pic from CDF: http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1713.0;attach=68574;image
TJPGC: Tianjin


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## Super Falcon

i dont think the photos of these of azmat class craft the photos are of frigates and this is too big why sailors only 12 in such a big baby


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## Penguin

Super Falcon said:


> i dont think the photos of these of azmat class craft the photos are of frigates and this is too big why sailors only 12 in such a big baby


I think they are. It is bigger for purpose of endurance. But lightly armed, not necessitating a larger complement, particularly is many things are automated.

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## S.Y.A

is it invisible or just have some reduction features?


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## HANI

S.Y.A said:


> is it invisible or just have some reduction features?



hahahahaha what a joke man nothing is invisible now a days and its a hundreds of ton metal ..... even F 22 is not invisible


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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> is it invisible or just have some reduction features?


RCS reduction just means you can't distuingish a large warship from a small fishing vessel (or a whale) no more, untill it is too late. NOthing becomes invisible.

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## Dazzler

this is where most of the people get confused as to how to put Stealth into words, nicely summed up sir.


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## Malik Alashter

Still beautiful corvette even in the term of price not bad at all, now the most important is it's load of EW we don't know nothing about them.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

PNS Azmat (1013) going for sea trial?

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## Penguin

Posted http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...aft-missile-launched-china-8.html#post2745025


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## Gnimgnay

It is going to be delivered to Pakistan navy in April 2012. A second ship of this class is under construction in KSEW, which will be completed in the end of 2012.

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## Manticore



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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

The link for larger image is already shown here http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...aft-missile-launched-china-9.html#post2768129


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## alibaz

Great news! We are already into April, any guess about date?


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## Nishan_101

I hope that if Pn would have done JV with China on it like making it a 1100 Ton vessel with multi purpose capabilities like two sets of four AShM launchers( along with 3 tube torpedo launchers hidden inside and some smaller Anti aircraft missile battery like RAAM on the rare side.


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## fatman17

aray yar +/- 30 days ho jata hai


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## Penguin

MODS: please merge into existing thread on PNS Azmad.


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## itaskol

it is something like our new 056...
but 056 has a small FL 3000 &#65288;ram&#65289; airdefence system.
and both 056 and Azmat are indeed not Fast attck craft. they are patrol boat.
the sailors live on board for a long time.... the amenity design also important.


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## hejiaiming

dear i can't say its stealth i don't know navy much .


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## masoomchichora

just saw on news first missile boat inducted into pak navy


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## nomi007

PNS AZMAT looks like
lcs-1

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## Archie

Well The difference is in size and fire power

LCS weigh around 3000 Tons while AZMAT is around 500-600 Tons 

Infact Azmat will play the same role as played by Veer class Missile boats/corvettes in India 

While LCS will play the same role as performed by 3000 Ton Kamorta class Corvettes


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## Nishan_101

Although if the PN had joined the program and make it a 1100 ton with existing 8 AShMs like on F-22Ps, along with three cell torpedoes tube on each side along with a Automated gun on both the sides on the upper portion and a bigger gun in front. This would make it a multi purpose FACs and the Pn would not require Corvettes. and may be a RAAM at the rearest side after the AShMs. Although if PN has done JV then we can produce 7 of such in 5 years time and continue its development till 15 years with newer versions in every five years.


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## Jango

Fast Attack Craft PNS Azmat inducted in Pak Navy | The News Tribe

Islamabad: The first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with missiles designated as PNS Azmat, built at China State Shipbuilding Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard was handed over to Pakistan Navy on Monday.

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## Tehmasib

i hear on geo news that PNS azmat delivered to pakistan.....Pak..china frienship zindabad

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## Jango

has it gone all the trials and is it in Pakistan or still in China??


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## Malik Usman

Pakistan's First Fast Attack Craft PNS Azmat inducted in Pak Navy | Latest Pakistan News in Urdu | Breaking News | Urdu Columns | Jobs in Pakistan | Exam Results | Admissions

Islamabad: The first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with missiles designated as PNS Azmat, built at China State Shipbuilding Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard was handed over to Pakistan Navy on Monday.

With the induction of this technology in the fleet, the Pakistan Navy has become the first maritime force in the region that is equipped with stealth technology after its first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles.
AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile) has a crew of 12 to 14 sailors which is less than half that of similar FAC (M). Each FAC (M) will cost of around $50 million each. It is speculated to be a 500-600 ton, 60-meter Fast Attack Craft (Missile) which will be equipped with heavy missiles. via, thenewstribe

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## air marshal

*Pakistan-China Friendship zindabaad.*

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## Areesh

An where are the pics of this induction?


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## Penguin

nuclearpak said:


> Fast Attack Craft PNS Azmat inducted in Pak Navy | The News Tribe
> 
> Islamabad: The first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with missiles designated as PNS Azmat, built at China State Shipbuilding Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard was handed over to Pakistan Navy on Monday.



Images shows a Dutch (Damen) built, Moroccan navy owned Sigma light frigate, NOT Azmat.


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## Penguin

Malik Usman said:


> Pakistan's First Fast Attack Craft PNS Azmat inducted in Pak Navy | Latest Pakistan News in Urdu | Breaking News | Urdu Columns | Jobs in Pakistan | Exam Results | Admissions
> 
> Islamabad: The first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with missiles designated as PNS Azmat, built at China State Shipbuilding Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard was handed over to Pakistan Navy on Monday.
> 
> With the induction of this technology in the fleet, the Pakistan Navy has become the first maritime force in the region that is equipped with stealth technology after its first Fast Attack Craft (FAC) equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles.
> AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile) has a crew of 12 to 14 sailors which is less than half that of similar FAC (M). Each FAC (M) will cost of around $50 million each. It is speculated to be a 500-600 ton, 60-meter Fast Attack Craft (Missile) which will be equipped with heavy missiles. via, thenewstribe



Dang! Please try to not open a new thread for each and every newsf*rt!

Mods: please merge into existing Azmat thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-fast-attack-craft-missile-discussion-10.html


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## z9-ec



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## TOPGUN

More pic's plzz guys ... any videos yet?


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## regular

Nice boat.......


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## Jango

Penguin said:


> Images shows a Dutch (Damen) built, Moroccan navy owned Sigma light frigate, NOT Azmat.



Thanks for the correction. It was pasted with the news article.


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## SBD-3

Donatello said:


> Sir jee,
> 
> They might add a few anti-aircraft guns....but thats it......it's a 500 ton boat.......our 2000 tons+ ships don't have much air defense...let alone these FACs.......
> 
> On a side note....50 million $ for FACs ain't cheap........when F-22Ps cost around 200Million $ for 2,500 tons....seems like Chinese have a flat rate of 10 Tons for 1-2 million$


to add to this, this is a "fast attack craft" meaning its fast, its more responsive and more manuverable, thus making is less suspectable to incoming antiship missiles who are ment for targetting rather slow moving or ideally stationary target. Thus i see little reason to see airdefence systems installed to the level of a destroyer, ACC or even a frigate.



nuclearpak said:


> has it gone all the trials and is it in Pakistan or still in China??


I personally think its more of a roll out than induction ceremoney, the most i can think is that PN would be conducting sea trials after induction which makes little sense if approperiate infrastructure to support lacks at KSW. However, there is a parallal construction project going on in Karachi as well which could, at best, explain the reason of quick induction.


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## Myth_buster_1

z9-ec said:


>



This is by far the best looking ship in PN other looks like fishing boats.


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## killerx

look high tec full specs any one and video plz


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## Arsalan

*Pakistan Navy gets first fast attack craft*

ISLAMABAD: PNS Azmat, Pakistan's first Fast Attack Craft (Missile), was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on Tuesday.









A ceremony in this regard was held at the Xingang Shipyard, China. Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila was the chief guest on the occasion. According to an official statement, the chief guest lauded the commissioning of the craft in Pakistan Navy as yet another achievement of the experts working on development of navys capabilities. Acknowledging the efforts of Chinese engineers and technicians for construction of FAC (M), the chief guest congratulated the China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) and Xingang Shipyard for their full cooperation and commitment in commissioning of the craft as per schedule. The achievement was yet another example of Pak-China cooperation, he said.




The naval chief said the project of missile craft construction represented a quantum leap not only in defence production in maritime sector of Pakistan but also addressed a longstanding operational requirement of the Pakistan Navy. The collaboration in the project would open new avenues that would be milestones in defence cooperation between China and Pakistan. The naval chief emphasised that the induction of missile craft would not only supplement Pakistan Navys combat potential but would also afford the force an opportunity to distinctly uphold its forward presence in important areas, contributing to balance the power equation in the region. PNS AZMAT is the first of AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile). The contract for construction of two fast attack craft (missile) was signed on the basis of Transfer of Technology (ToT).




The first craft was to be built in China and the second at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW). The vessel being built in Karachi is equipped with state-of-the-art weapons and sensors, including surface-to-surface missiles and stealth features.


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## Arsalan

Here is the Video Link for the news. the news link is showing wrong vessel!

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## iioal malik

Now that's wht im talking about..Looks really good Good luck Pakistan Zindabad.....


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## Penguin

z9-ec said:


>
















courtesey http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=3245.20

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## The SC

Edit...............................


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## The SC

Emmie said:


> Azmat means "magnificence", "grandeur" or "greatness"



It also means the power of the will and the courage to carry on with strength.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This is by far the best looking ship in PN other looks like fishing boats.



All the future warships inducting into the PN will be stealthy.

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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> courtesey Login



I had wish that if we had done JV with China on FAC as well as on F-22P like make them lethal platform by:

*FAC:*
Making it a 1100 Ton vessel like a small corvette with its main gun of 70m.m caliber along with the 2 4-Cell AShMs along with the 2 Sets of 3-Cell of Torpedo Tubes on each side and RAAM on both the rear side of upper deck and another one on the front upper side and an Automated Gun 30m.m on the rear side after the AShMs. This would have made it a lethal platform. We can induct as much as 21 of these type in 15 years of time with 7 of such in every five years....


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## SHAMK9

How many of these bad a** ships is PN getting?


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## TOPGUN

SHAMK9 said:


> How many of these bad a** ships is PN getting?



2 one from China which we got plus one will be built in karachi shipyard inshallah.. hopefully PN will build more of these in the near future

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## Arsalan

this is perhaps for Chinese Navy?
it is bearing #614





the Pakistani vessel number is 1013


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## nomi007

arsalanaslam123 said:


> this is perhaps for Chinese Navy?
> it is bearing #614
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the Pakistani vessel number is 1013


No sir
chinese are using Houbei class missile boat
azmat is for pakistan

2nd is under construction in Pakistan
NAME PNS Dahshat


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## monitor



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## Roybot

arsalanaslam123 said:


> this is perhaps for Chinese Navy?
> it is bearing #614



Thats a Sigma Class Frigate being built for Moraccan Navy.

Royal Moroccan Armed Forces(Photos & Videos) - Page 45

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC Date Posted: 25-Apr-2012 

*China delivers first Azmat-class FAC to Pakistan*


Farhan Bokhari - Correspondent - Islamabad


China handed over the first of two Azmat-class fast-attack craft to the Pakistan Navy (PN) on 23 April, in the latest example of co-operation between the two countries. 

Azmat was handed over at Xingang Shipyard in Tianjin, where the 63 m-long, 560-tonne vessel was built under a government-to-government contract signed in 2010. 

Azmat's armament includes a twin 25 mm gun mounting and eight C-802A surface-to-surface missiles. (Pakistan Navy) 


Based on the Houjian-class (Type 037/2) missile craft in service with the People's Liberation Army Navy, Azmat is designed to carry eight C-802A (YJ-83/CSS-N-8 'Saccade') surface-to-surface missiles, two 25 mm guns (in a twin mounting forward) and two 12.7 mm machine guns. 

Ship 2 is being built by Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) under a technology transfer agreement. China has previously agreed to sell four Sword-class (F-22P) frigates - a modification of the Jiangwei II (Type 053H3) design - to the PN in a similar deal involving collaboration between KSEW and Chinese shipbuilders. 

In March 2011, Islamabad announced it had begun talks with Beijing on the purchase of six new submarines to complement the PN's three Khalid-class (Agosta 90B) submarines, two Hashmat-class (Agosta 70) boats and three midgets. No further information has been forthcoming on these talks.


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## Arsalan

nomi007 said:


> No sir
> chinese are using Houbei class missile boat
> azmat is for pakistan
> 
> 2nd is under construction in Pakistan
> NAME PNS Dahshat



thanks bro, i know this, but what is this boat with # 614, bit confused from this!



Roybot said:


> Thats a Sigma Class Frigate being built for Moraccan Navy.
> 
> Royal Moroccan Armed Forces(Photos & Videos) - Page 45



that solves it for me!!
thanks!


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## ChineseTiger1986

Good to see most of the Pakistani brothers like China's boxy shape design for the stealth warship.

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## nomi007

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thanks bro, i know this, but what is this boat with # 614, bit confused from this!
> 
> 
> 
> that solves it for me!!
> thanks!


even you see this ptv also using same image of Moroccan ship


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## ice_man

*twin 25 mm gun mounting *

sir even patrol boats have 30 mm guns nowadays! 70mm guns are mostly common nowadays.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

ice_man said:


> *twin 25 mm gun mounting *
> 
> sir even patrol boats have 30 mm guns nowadays! 70mm guns are mostly common nowadays.


 
See Page 8, there is an AK-630 styled CIWS at the rear; the quoted report just doesn't mention it; that's all.


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## a1b2c145



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## Penguin

ice_man said:


> *twin 25 mm gun mounting *
> 
> sir even patrol boats have 30 mm guns nowadays! 70mm guns are mostly common nowadays.



Some 25mm rounds are more powerful than 30mm rounds

The round for the rear gun is 30 x 165
The round for the front gun is 25 x 183

While smaller diameter, it is a longer round and may actually pack more punch (higher muzzle velocitiy for a similar weight round)

BOOKS BY ANTHONY G WILLIAMS

However:

The rear gunmount is layed using a radar director > all weather + precision (intended for self defence against fast air targets)

The front gunmount is layed manually > not all weather + less precision (intended for engagement of slow surface targets)

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## ice_man

Penguin said:


> Some 25mm rounds are more powerful than 30mm rounds
> 
> The round for the rear gun is 30 x 165
> The round for the front gun is 25 x 183
> 
> While smaller diameter, it is a longer round and may actually pack more punch (higher muzzle velocitiy for a similar weight round)
> 
> BOOKS BY ANTHONY G WILLIAMS
> 
> However:
> 
> The rear gunmount is layed using a radar director > all weather + precision (intended for self defence against fast air targets)
> 
> The front gunmount is layed manually > not all weather + less precision (intended for engagement of slow surface targets)



thanks for the info hwever, shouldn't we be having atleast a 70 MM onboard? 30mm is just not good enough nowadays even coastal patrols have 25 mms!


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## Penguin

ice_man said:


> thanks for the info hwever, shouldn't we be having atleast a 70 MM onboard? 30mm is just not good enough nowadays even coastal patrols have 25 mms!


As patrol ship in peacetime, it will be up against unarmed craft, maybe carrying some guys with AKs, a GPMG and a rocket launcher.
As warship in time of conflict, if it meets a serious surface threat for which the 25mm and the 30mm don't suffice, it has the C802 missile and it can use that at ranges well beyond the gunranges. I.e. it will stand off.
The whole point of thie boat being bigger is NOT to carry more or heavier armaments or more advanced sensors but to be able to go out further and stay out longer in a greater variety of weather conditions.

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## alimobin memon

I told you guys Sub dealing cant be cancelled !! Islamabad had started requesting CHina for subs.


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## ice_man

alimobin memon said:


> I told you guys Sub dealing cant be cancelled !! Islamabad had started requesting CHina for subs.



 ok thank you for your randomness!


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## Penguin

alimobin memon said:


> I told you guys Sub dealing cant be cancelled !! Islamabad had started requesting CHina for subs.


Isn't there a thread for that topic elsewhere?


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## Penguin




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## nomi007

ice_man said:


> *twin 25 mm gun mounting *
> 
> sir even patrol boats have 30 mm guns nowadays! 70mm guns are mostly common nowadays.


May 1, 2012: Pakistan received the first of two Chinese built Azmat fast patrol boats. The second Azmat will be built in Pakistan, and more may follow after that. It depends on how well the first two do. The Azmats displace 560 tons, are 63 meters (206.6 feet) long and are armed with eight C802A anti-ship missiles (range: 180 kilometers), one 76 mm cannon and one multibarrel 30mm cannon for anti-missile defense. These highly automated ships have a crew of 14 and cost $50 million each.
Surface Forces: Chinese Missile Boats For Pakistan


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## Penguin

nomi007 said:


> May 1, 2012: Pakistan received the first of two Chinese built Azmat fast patrol boats. The second Azmat will be built in Pakistan, and more may follow after that. It depends on how well the first two do. The Azmats displace 560 tons, are 63 meters (206.6 feet) long and are armed with eight C802A anti-ship missiles (range: 180 kilometers), one 76 mm cannon and one multibarrel 30mm cannon for anti-missile defense. These highly automated ships have a crew of 14 and cost $50 million each.
> Surface Forces: Chinese Missile Boats For Pakistan



You have 2x Mk1 eyeball. How do you explain the forward gun mount of the 1013 ... ?

The original tender spoke of 2 25 gun mounts.... (see e.g. http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...vy-fast-attack-craft-launched.html#post763475)

Maybe Strategypage.com is wrong (still referring to Type 037-II)?


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## Inception-06

Without a long range air defence system this ships can be easily attacked by Indian Air Force and Navy.

Anza II QianWei 2 Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile or HongYing 6 (FN-6) Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile are not enough, the question would be also are they static installed or MANPADS.


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## AUSTERLITZ

To expect any significant air defences on a 500ton boat is foolish.U would need at least 2000 plus tonnage for that.
It packs quite a surface attack package with the 8 c-802 missiles which are very effective anti ship missiles with very high kill probability,but main problem is small range of 180 kms.Meaning ships carrying these will come to come quite close to indian surface ships carrying 300 km klub or brahmos missiles.This would put them at a major disadvantage as they are most likely to be detected by maritime patrol aircraft,AEW helicopters or planes or jets from a CBG if near one.
This is why subs carrying this missile would have far better chance of success.

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## Penguin

AUSTERLITZ said:


> To expect any significant air defences on a 500ton boat is foolish.U would need at least 2000 plus tonnage for that.
> It packs quite a surface attack package with the 8 c-802 missiles which are very effective anti ship missiles with very high kill probability,but main problem is small range of 180 kms.Meaning ships carrying these will come to come quite close to indian surface ships carrying 300 km klub or brahmos missiles.This would put them at a major disadvantage as they are most likely to be detected by maritime patrol aircraft,AEW helicopters or planes or jets from a CBG if near one.
> This is why subs carrying this missile would have far better chance of success.


1. 180km is not small range. 
2. 300km is more than 180km
3. 300km range won't do you no good without commensurate reconnaissance, command and communications to target a missile over that range. Some of the IN ships firing Brahmos certainly do not have radars reaching that far out. In fact, they may not even be able to see ships even at 180km distance. So, targetting Brahmos would have to involve other assets and all the cooperative complexities that entails. Just because e.g. the new batch of Talwars get Brahmos doesn't mean these ships are automatically individuallly effective as ASuW platforms: they depend on external recon assets. There is a good chance for PN ships to remain undected out at sea...

Independent AShM missile targeting by subs while submerged is even more limited....

As evidenced by the light self defence armament fit, Azmat will only fight relatively close to, under cover of landbased aircraft, supported by coastal missile batteries firing c 602/yj 62 wit ha range of 400+ km domestic verion / 280+ km export version. Not an environment that is friendly for a carrier force to operate in.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Thats why all indian new even corvettes carry a helicopter and all new frigates and destroyers carry 2.The carriers will have AEW aircraft /plus they have kamov-31s and aircraft.There is also maritime patrol craft.India's naval avaition being superior,chances are they will be detected.Plus indian navy is also getting its own satellites.

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## wangrong



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## Donatello

wangrong said:


>



Thanks wangrong!

That is one small but sick looking boat!!




I guess the idea is to hit and run!


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## ice_man

Penguin said:


> 1. 180km is not small range.
> 2. 300km is more than 180km
> 3. 300km range won't do you no good without commensurate reconnaissance, command and communications to target a missile over that range. Some of the IN ships firing Brahmos certainly do not have radars reaching that far out. In fact, they may not even be able to see ships even at 180km distance. So, targetting Brahmos would have to involve other assets and all the cooperative complexities that entails. Just because e.g. the new batch of Talwars get Brahmos doesn't mean these ships are automatically individuallly effective as ASuW platforms: they depend on external recon assets. There is a good chance for PN ships to remain undected out at sea...
> 
> Independent AShM missile targeting by subs while submerged is even more limited....
> 
> As evidenced by the light self defence armament fit, Azmat will only fight relatively close to, under cover of landbased aircraft, supported by coastal missile batteries firing c 602/yj 62 wit ha range of 400+ km domestic verion / 280+ km export version. Not an environment that is friendly for a carrier force to operate in.



great post as usual Penguin. However, won't the Talwar class upgrade its radar while recieving these Brahmos?


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## regular

Ulla said:


> Without a long range air defence system this ships can be easily attacked by Indian Air Force and Navy.
> 
> Anza II QianWei 2 Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile or HongYing 6 (FN-6) Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile are not enough, the question would be also are they static installed or MANPADS.


Yes! for sure there will be static installed or MANPADS for the air defence system of the boat....


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## Penguin

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Thats why all indian new even corvettes carry a helicopter and all new frigates and destroyers carry 2.The carriers will have AEW aircraft /plus they have kamov-31s and aircraft.There is also maritime patrol craft.India's naval avaition being superior,chances are they will be detected. Plus indian navy is also getting its own satellites.



Essentially, you've acknowledged my point that Brahmos equipped ships need / depend on external targeting info in order to effectively utilize the missile 300km range. Without such support, they are far less able to independently use Brahmos out to max. range.

Meanwhile:
1. Corvettes, frigates and destoyers carry helicopters do so because these airframes are their main ASW-asset. ASuW/Recce is at best secondary. These ships are, after all, the escorts for the carrier.... The likely (presumed) presence of submarines in the combat zone will keep helicopters preoccupied with ASW work rather than ASuW targeting.
2. AEW helicopters like the Kamov 31 are intended for early warning against air threats (primary job) and directing of naval jets against naval air targets. Ka-31 features an E-801M solid-state early warning radar which can detect a fighter size target up to 150km away, and a surface ship up to 200km away. You have to add a least 100km of helicopter range to get to the point where you can begin thinking about directing an anti-shipping attack out to 300 km. If that places you within 500km off shore, both the helicopter and the carrier tha launches it become potential targets for even relatively short legged jets such as Mirage III, which in its base version has sufficient combat radius version (normal combat radius when fully armed varies from 300 to 470 miles, depending on the type of mission being flown, extendable to 1,500 miles with auxiliary fuel tanks).
3. Maritime patrol aircraft too would do wise to stay well clear of airspace defended by land-based aviation, as MPA tend to be sitting ducks for modern fighter jets. JF-17 is quoted with a combat radius of 1352 km. A baseline F-16 has a combat radius of 740 nm (1370 km) with two 2000-lb bombs and two AIM-9, with 1040 US gal external tanks.

The equation is far less simple than you would like to make it appear...



Donatello said:


> sick looking boat!!



did you mean 'slick'?

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## [--Leo--]

please give more detail about air defence system that is installed on the pns azmat
Name
Range
Speed
is it short or long or medium range

which variant is installed? on which it is based on


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## Penguin

ice_man said:


> great post as usual Penguin. However, won't the Talwar class upgrade its radar while recieving these Brahmos?


INS Teg and newer ships appear to have exactly the same radar fit as previous units.
Which makes the 3Ts-25E "Garpun-B" radar still the main ASuW target acquisition radar. 






According to the brochure for 3Ts-25E Garpun B, _active_ surface target detection range (against target RCS - 1,000 sq. m) is 35-45km in normal radar visibility, up to 90km in high radar visibility and up to 250km in conditions of 'super-refraction' (depending on the area covered). Surface target detection range in _passive _mode is 50-500km, depending on signal potential and frequency band of electronic equipment emissions.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186889&d=1279624795 BROCHURE


In active mode, the Garpun radar is emitting. In passive mode, it is simply listening to other ships' emissions. That means that if the other ship is enforcing EMCON, there is nothing to detect for the Garpun and the vessel carrying it is blind.
Passive radars - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums DISCUSSION


Normal Refraction


> In free space, an EM wave will travel in a straight line because conditions are uniform and the index of refraction is the same throughout the column. Within Earth&#8217;s atmosphere, however, the velocity of the wave is less than that of free space. So the propagating wave will be bent downward from a straight line. This is described as normal refraction occurs.
> Normal refractivity exists in most areas about 50% of the time. AP is not present under normal refractive conditions.



Super refraction: 


> In this situation, the vertical distributions of temperature, moisture, and pressure cause the radar waves to bend more toward the surface of Earth than under normal conditions. As the refractivity gradient continues to decrease, the wave path&#8217;s curve will approach the radius of curvature of the earth. Super-refractive conditions can extend radar coverage up to 50% above normal.



http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/EMEO_online/module4/Atmospheric_Refraction_of_EM_Waves.doc

This is backed by the Fregate M2EM which has an scanning range to 300km (against air targets) but a detection range against ship of 'line of sight' i.e. out to the radar horizon, which is a function of radar height above water and earth curvature (but certainly less than 300km or it would have been so listed).
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy.pdf (see table page 83)






And we find the same 2 radars on noth the project 15 Delhi class and the project 17 Shivalik class ships. Garpun-B is also found on project 16A Brahmaputra class, project 25 Khukri / 25A Kora and Veer classes. Aka. Bell Aparna. A.k.a. NATO designation 'Plank Shave'. The ships either lack or have different main radars to the Fregat M2EM.











Bell Aparna / Garpun-B / Plank Shave will also feature on the project 15A Kolkata class ships. atop the bridge.

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## Penguin

[--Leo--];2896296 said:


> please give more detail about air defence system that is installed on the pns azmat
> Name
> Range
> Speed
> is it short or long or medium range
> 
> which variant is installed? on which it is based on



Chinese variant of AK630 with stealthier gun cover. Radar-guided 30 mm GSh-6-30 gatling gun AO-18. Rate of Fire is 5,000 rounds per minute (83 round/s). (Effective/ flat-trajectory) range is 4,000 m (13,000 ft) . Elevation -12 to +88 degrees. Traverse 360 degrees . Ammunition: Fixed (HE-FRAG, FRAG. MPDS) Ammunition stowage: A single below deck magazine. Fires standard Russian 30 x 165 mm cartridge. Muzzle velocity 900 m (3,000 ft) per second for MPDS round. Ammunition storage 2,000 rounds . AK-630/630M firing unit (excl. off mount control systems): 1,850 kg (empty), 1,918 kg (with ammunition).











Chinese naval Type 87 twin 25mm: Muzzle velocity 1050 m/s, Effective range 3200 m, Horizontal movement 360 deg. Vertical movement -10 to 90 deg. Rate of fire 600~700 rounds/min. Weight 1500 kg. Optically laid.

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## S.Y.A

speed is very low considering that it is a *fast* attack craft


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## regular

S.Y.A said:


> speed is very low considering that it is a *fast* attack craft


Yes! speed is medium to low....it needz to be near 50 Knots instead of 30knots for fast attack crafts....30 knots is normal speed......


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## S.Y.A

regular said:


> Yes! speed is medium to low....it needz to be near 50 Knots instead of 30knots for fast attack crafts....30 knots is normal speed......



at least 40-45


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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> at least 40-45



It's a patrol boat, with missiles. For effective patrolling, you need endurance. To get endurance (incl. range) , you have to have economical propulsion. So, you you put in fewer or different engines than if speed were of the essence, with less SHP and you sacrifice speed. That's incidentally also why this is a 500 ton boat and not a 220 ton Type 022: if you stay out longer at sea, you need a bigger crew and creature comforts (galley, beds etc)

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## Armstrong

Penguin said:


> It's a patrol boat, with missiles. For effective patrolling, you need endurance. To get endurance (incl. range) , you have to have economical propulsion. So, you you put in *fewer or different engines* than if speed were of the essence, with less SHP and you sacrifice speed. That's incidentally also why this is a 500 ton boat and not a 220 ton Type 022: if you stay out longer at sea, you need a bigger crew and creature comforts (galley, beds etc)



Penguin, a noob question, if you will : Do engines come in different configurations (settings) ? Which is to say just as a Jeep may switch from a 4x4 to a front (or rear)-wheel drive; can ships switch from a full power setting to give chase or to escape (hence the 40-45 that he was talking about) to a setting that economizes on fuel and hence allows you to stay out longer ? I'm not sure if I can elucidate well enough because I know next to nothing about ships....but to use another example - an Air craft's after-burner switched on for pursuit or escape to a normal thrust for cruising !


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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> Penguin, a noob question, if you will : Do engines come in different configurations (settings) ? Which is to say just as a Jeep may switch from a 4x4 to a front (or rear)-wheel drive; can ships switch from a full power setting to give chase or to escape (hence the 40-45 that he was talking about) to a setting that economizes on fuel and hence allows you to stay out longer ? I'm not sure if I can elucidate well enough because I know next to nothing about ships....but to use another example - an Air craft's after-burner switched on for pursuit or escape to a normal thrust for cruising !



Hi,
There is an answer to that. Multiple engines is one of them and usually the best option. A single engine of any type (Steam, Diesel or Gas Turbine) can also have its speed regulated, some what like a car you can control the fuel flow and hence the RPM/speed.

However this method is not suitable for Gas Turbines (which are getting increasingly popular now for various reasons) since their efficiency (and fuel economy) is achieved only at certain band of RPM/speed. That said, Gas Turbines are the fastest revving (responsive) means of Marine propulsion.

Diesel Engines are still in vogue because they are easier to run and maintain as well as they give the best fuel economy. Plus their RPM/speed can be regulated over a wide band. But the down-side is they are not so responsive and cannot build up speed very rapidly. Nor can they in direct drive achieve very high speeds without gearing.

Steam propulsion is going out of vogue, because the whole plant takes a great deal of time to start up (actually need a great deal of preparation to be put into operation). But they are moderately responsive and with suitable gearing can achieve reasonably high RPM/speed.

Usually to tackle the scenario that you have described, multiple engines are used each driving a different shaft/propellor. A common arrangement is a central shaft/propellor driven by a Diesel for economical cruising/endurance and two outboard shafts/propellors (one on either side) driven by Gas Turbines for rapid acceleration/burst speed. The Diesel/GT engines may work together (CODAG) or separately (CODOG).

Sometimes multiple Gas Turbines may be used to drive the shafts. Say 4 GTs to drive 2 shafts propellors through gear boxes. Deprending on the speeds required the GTs will be coupled or de-coupled to the gear boxes.

Hope that helps.

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## Donatello

Armstrong said:


> Penguin, a noob question, if you will : Do engines come in different configurations (settings) ? Which is to say just as a Jeep may switch from a 4x4 to a front (or rear)-wheel drive; can ships switch from a full power setting to give chase or to escape (hence the 40-45 that he was talking about) to a setting that economizes on fuel and hence allows you to stay out longer ? I'm not sure if I can elucidate well enough because I know next to nothing about ships....but to use another example - an Air craft's after-burner switched on for pursuit or escape to a normal thrust for cruising !



Not a noob question at all,

Yes Ships have propulsion systems that can have one power source or multiple.

For example, just for cruising, a ship can use it's gas turbine only. But if more speed is required in rough weather, they can engage the clutch and use another power source with the gas turbine, like electric motor + gas turbine.

check this page out, it has very good description of some of the 'hybrid' systems for ship propulsion....and check the diagrams. Very informative.

Combined diesel and gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

go to links on the right side to see each possible case scenario.

hope it helps!

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## Armstrong

@ Donatello and Cap. Popeye : Thanks guys !

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## Penguin

I think in smaller ships (under, say, 1000 tons) you do not tend to find the 'combined' propulsion type much, whether is is solely multiple diesels or multiple gasturbines or a combination. Such an arrangement requires reduction gears etc, which add to weight and volume, which is scarce in small ships. That doesn't mean examples can't be found, merely that it is not typical. Alternatively, boats get a pair of cruise diesels or turbines on one pair of shafts and boost diesels or turbines at one or more additional shafts. Or you get entirely different plant on the same ship in its patrol and in its attack variants.

One example is the Russian Tarantull class (a.k.a. project 1241.1/RE/.8 and variants, a.k.a. Veer class in IN). This 550 ton missile boat has a 2 shaft COGAG plant with 2 turbines at 11000 hp each, plus 2 cruising engines at 4000 hp each (there are diesel and turbine versions of the cruising engines), which let these boats reach 42 knots. Range is 1650 at 14 knots (26 km/h), 

One version of these ships was developed especially for coastal anti submarine warfare and patrol. This is known as the Pauk class corvette or Project 1241.2 (Abhay class in IN). It is is slightly longer and has diesel engines (2 shafts, M504 diesels, 20,000 shp). Speed is 28&#8211;34 knots1,650 nautical miles (3,056 km; 1,899 mi) at 14 kn (25.9 km/h; 16.1 mph). So, this does without the boost turbines, compared to Tarantul.

Compare also the propulsion arrangement of the PRC Hegu (Russian Komar) missile boat to that of the contemporary Type 62 Shanghai. The former (a missile fac) has as propulsion: 4 shaft M-50F diesels 4800 hp, for as speed of 44 knots and a range of 600 nm at 32 knots The latter (an asw patrol ship) has 2 × Soviet M50F-4 diesel engines, 1,200 hp (895 kW) plus 2 × 12D6 diesel engines, 910 hp (679 kW) for a top speed of 28.5 knots and a range of 750 nm (1,390 km) at 16.5 knots. Different task, different boat, differen propulsion solution.

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## nomi007

i think pn choose really good fac in limited funds

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## Penguin

nomi007 said:


> i think pn choose really good fac in limited funds


It will be used all or mostly in peacetime, for which duties it is quite suitable. In wartime, it is a unit with capabilities matching its essentially defensive tasks, to be conducted under cover of landbased aviation. So, yeah, value for money.

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## Armstrong

Penguin said:


> It will be used all or mostly in peacetime, for which duties it is quite suitable. In wartime, it is a unit with capabilities matching its essentially defensive tasks, to be conducted under cover of landbased aviation. So, yeah, value for money.



Hey, Penguin ! Can this vessel be used adequately in anti-piracy operations if it were operating solo ?

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## S.Y.A

Penguin said:


> It will be used all or mostly in peacetime, for which duties it is quite suitable. In wartime, it is a unit with capabilities matching its essentially defensive tasks, to be conducted under cover of landbased aviation. So, yeah, value for money.



what is the use when it will be used mostly in peacetime? I still think it should be faster because the "hit and run" role everyone has been talking about would not be very useful if its slow and that too if an aircraft is on its tail


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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> Hey, Penguin ! Can this vessel be used adequately in anti-piracy operations if it were operating solo ?



Hi,

It certainly can be. I'd say that would be a very appropriate use of this craft. It has suitable armament to handle say (actaually the missiles are a bit of over-kill for the purpose) ; the Somali Pirates.
Apart from being suitable for coastal patrolling, monitoring illegal fishing or intercepting contraband carrying craft or even in a SAR (Search And Rescue) role.

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## ice_man

during war this boat will be very good asset in terms of harbor denial and channel denial to the theme enemy. DESTROYERS & FIRGATES are more of an offesnive weapon which for Pakistan has traditonally been its submarines. 

so during war this boat will help keep the channel open from enemy but definetly can't take out frigates or destroyers of the enemy.


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## Donatello

Azmat class boats can be used for anti-piracy. I think PN is getting these so that bigger ships, like Frigates can be called back from anti-piracy duties. This way boats that are cheaper to make and run, would be ideal for Anti-Piracy litorral roles.

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## Penguin

Armstrong said:


> Hey, Penguin ! Can this vessel be used adequately in anti-piracy operations if it were operating solo ?


I would think so, though only relatively close to home (compared to e.g. Perry class and other frigates) or ... from a foreign base (i.e. close to their shore)



S.Y.A said:


> what is the use when it will be used mostly in peacetime? I still think it should be faster because the "hit and run" role everyone has been talking about would not be very useful if its slow and that too if an aircraft is on its tail


Hopefully all and otherwise most of its servicelife will be spent patrolling, rather than having at it with the eastern neighbour. Relative to aircraft even 50-60kt is slow...

Why do you think the Dutch navy let go of frigates for -admittedly equal sized - OPV? Because operating frigates on anti-pirate patrol work is not so cost-effective. OPVs do a better job, for less money.



ice_man said:


> during war this boat will be very good asset in terms of harbor denial and channel denial to the theme enemy. DESTROYERS & FIRGATES are more of an offesnive weapon which for Pakistan has traditonally been its submarines.
> 
> so during war this boat will help keep the channel open from enemy but *definetly can't take out frigates or destroyers of the enemy*.


While I agree with the first part of your post, you are saying the 8x c802 on Azmat FAC are less effective than the 8x C802 on Zulfiquar F22P? Or, that the latter is toothless?

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## regular

What if we arm these boats with the Nasr Nucklear missiles....will it workout good for us within the tense war situation...I guess it can take out an aircraft carrier etc or we need to have small stealth submarines armed with such missiles/nuklear torpedos to take out the Nuklear subs or the aircraft carriers .....


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## Penguin

regular said:


> What if we arm these boats with the Nasr Nucklear missiles....will it workout good for us within the tense war situation...I guess it can take out an aircraft carrier etc or we need to have small stealth submarines armed with such missiles/nuklear torpedos to take out the Nuklear subs or the aircraft carriers .....



1. Those missiles are ballistic missiles, which don't work well against non-static, mobile targets such as ships (moving at 22-30knots i.e. 40-55 km/h).
2. Their range is only 60km, compared to 120 km for C-802, 180 km for C-802A anti-ship missiles and 700km for Babur cruise missile.

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## rishisankaran

Armstrong said:


> Penguin, a noob question, if you will : Do engines come in different configurations (settings) ? Which is to say just as a Jeep may switch from a 4x4 to a front (or rear)-wheel drive; can ships switch from a full power setting to give chase or to escape (hence the 40-45 that he was talking about) to a setting that economizes on fuel and hence allows you to stay out longer ? I'm not sure if I can elucidate well enough because I know next to nothing about ships....but to use another example - an Air craft's after-burner switched on for pursuit or escape to a normal thrust for cruising !



This can be achieved through the type of propulsion system configuration 
CODOG ( Combined Diesel or Gas Propulsion) - Every propeller shaft can be connected to a Gas or Diesel Engine power source. Only one can be used at a time. For ex When it requires higher power shift to Diesel and when cruising at a limited speed probably the gas source could be used. More economical however requires a powerful Gas turbine source. - INS Shivalik has this technology. Probably the first ship in Indian Navy to have so. An indigenous designed and developed one. 
CODAG ( Combined Diesel and Gas Propulsion) - Every propeller shaft is connected to both GAS and DIESEL power source. It can combine the power output of both however the only drawback might be reducing the drive which may not be required especially on a slow speed cruise, because of which a multi-speed gear box is employed to control the same. 

There are other configurations such as CODLAG (combined diesel, electric and GAS propulsion technology) . 

So essentially this is something that can be achieved by employing the appropriate propulsion system.

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## Manticore

sorry for the repost .. i think the last one might not be posted

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## regular

Penguin said:


> 1. Those missiles are ballistic missiles, which don't work well against non-static, mobile targets such as ships (moving at 22-30knots i.e. 40-55 km/h).
> 2. Their range is only 60km, compared to 120 km for C-802, 180 km for C-802A anti-ship missiles and 700km for Babur cruise missile.


Is it possible that we can arm our C-802A with miniature Nukes in order to use against an aircraft carrier if needed??.....I guess it shold be possible with some modification ......


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## S.Y.A

what is its RCS??

why not fix babur on it


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## S-A-B-E-R->

S.Y.A said:


> what is its RCS??
> 
> why not fix babur on it


no one knows RCS yet
And plz we dont fix stuff on other stuff babur is an advance cruse missle which needs a huge command and control system yes there is a naval verson of it in the tube but it ll never be intigrated with Azmet ...at max we ll se it on f22ps or in future if we go for type054 class fregets.


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## rishisankaran

regular said:


> Is it possible that we can arm our C-802A with miniature Nukes in order to use against an aircraft carrier if needed??.....I guess it shold be possible with some modification ......



Either the missile should have a higher range or the boat should have higher endurance. I mean an aircraft carrier would never come near to the shore nor does this boat have the endurance to go out in the ocean alone for greater distance without fuel replenishment support. Well the only possibility I could see is to have a large range radar and a longer range missile.



ANTIBODY said:


> sorry for the repost .. i think the last one might not be posted



Lovely pics. I love the design of this FAC. Chinese technology at it's best !! And congrats to Pakistan for having this stealthy FAC in their kitty.
I guess it would be a huge technological leap for Pakistan. And maybe one day Pakistan develops one of their own. 



*Ind-Pak friendship zindabad*


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## regular

Pakistan is fully capable to manufacture their own now.....


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## rishisankaran

regular said:


> Pakistan is fully capable to manufacture their own now.....



Well there is a big difference between licensed manufacturing and indigenous design & manufacturing. I was referring to the later. I'm sure your naval shipyards are well equipped to license manufacture but probably lacks the capability in designing and building its own frigates,destroyers and missile boats. I believe the capability to master the stealth hull design and then manufacture them would in itself take ages to acquire. 
I would like to bring Indian Naval design wing as a reference here, started with modest designs some of them inspired by British legacy, such as Leander class frigates, however now they are in a much stronger position in terms of expertise and are delivering some high quality ships as a proof of their class. The best example would be Shivalik class frigates and the yet to be inducted Kolkotta class destroyers.

Please note I don't doubt Pakistan's capability of Naval ship building, However I want to highlight that developing the capability to design and build stealth ships is not a capability developed over night. It takes years to reach that level and Pakistan is yet to cover more distance to be there. Hope you would agree !!

Ind-Pak friendship zindabad !!


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## itaskol

azmat visiting hongkong.

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## itaskol

Donatello said:


> Azmat class boats can be used for anti-piracy. I think PN is getting these so that bigger ships, like Frigates can be called back from anti-piracy duties. This way boats that are cheaper to make and run, would be ideal for Anti-Piracy litorral roles.


azmat should be used as coast guard patrol boat. 
but without helicopter it can not be very effective for anti piracy mission.

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## regular

rishisankaran said:


> Well there is a big difference between licensed manufacturing and indigenous design & manufacturing. I was referring to the later. I'm sure your naval shipyards are well equipped to license manufacture but probably lacks the capability in designing and building its own frigates,destroyers and missile boats. I believe the capability to master the stealth hull design and then manufacture them would in itself take ages to acquire.
> I would like to bring Indian Naval design wing as a reference here, started with modest designs some of them inspired by British legacy, such as Leander class frigates, however now they are in a much stronger position in terms of expertise and are delivering some high quality ships as a proof of their class. The best example would be Shivalik class frigates and the yet to be inducted Kolkotta class destroyers.
> 
> Please note I don't doubt Pakistan's capability of Naval ship building, However I want to highlight that developing the capability to design and build stealth ships is not a capability developed over night. It takes years to reach that level and Pakistan is yet to cover more distance to be there. Hope you would agree !!
> 
> Ind-Pak friendship zindabad !!


I understand Ure opinion but there is an old saying"where there is a will there is a way"
When we have friends like China we don't have to worry about the R&D so much we can take advatage from theirs expertise and add something from our experiences and bringup something realli good results....and according to my knowledge the stealth designs of the ships is not rocket science we got enough calibre and expertise to dvelop it easily nowadays.The pplz who says within ure country that its too hard or technological and wanna buy from foreign countries are infact interested in the kickbacks only to fillup their pockets.....


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## Imran Khan

regular said:


> Is it possible that we can arm our C-802A with miniature Nukes in order to use against an aircraft carrier if needed??.....I guess it shold be possible with some modification ......



these tubes can carry babur ? its the question only if yes then nuke will be no issue.but again using tinny boat as nuke career is really bad idea.


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## itaskol

I think the Azmat ist also sold to Algeria this month.
Russian media said the Chinese defeat the orders of Russia won the 3 corvettes in Algeria « Military of China, force comment.

"Algeria orders Chinese corvettes and German frigates"
Jane's Navy International - The global magazine of naval operations and technology


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## rishisankaran

regular said:


> I understand Ure opinion but there is an old saying"where there is a will there is a way"
> When we have friends like China we don't have to worry about the R&D so much we can take advatage from theirs expertise and add something from our experiences and bringup something realli good results....and according to my knowledge the stealth designs of the ships is not rocket science we got enough calibre and expertise to dvelop it easily nowadays.The pplz who says within ure country that its too hard or technological and wanna buy from foreign countries are infact interested in the kickbacks only to fillup their pockets.....



Wish you could have exhibited some hard facts before coming up with an assumption that stealth ships are easy to develop. Well I wish it was that easy right from the steel grade and usage of radar absorbent material is in itself a science of its own. And it takes for sure some time for a country to develop especially a country which doesn't have an in-house frigate or destroyer manufacturing capability. Wish Pakistan had designed and manufactured its own warships in large numbers. I do support that due to the lack of full capability you can built upon what China has to offer to you and it would work well as they are your strategic partners. Designing and building a stealth ship is not like building a catamaran or fishing boat it does require an expertise in Naval architecture and ship designing. 

Hope that clarifies !!


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## Penguin

regular said:


> Is it possible that we can arm our C-802A with miniature Nukes in order to use against an aircraft carrier if needed??.....I guess it shold be possible with some modification ......


And then what? You want to start a nuclear exchange by taking out a carrier with a nuke, escalating a non-nuclear conflict in to a nuclear one? Missile too can get shot down, incidentally, so there remains the question of whether a few nuke-tipped compact cruise missile would suffice.



itaskol said:


> I think the Azmat ist also sold to Algeria this month.
> Russian media said the Chinese defeat the orders of Russia won the 3 corvettes in Algeria « Military of China, force comment.
> 
> "Algeria orders Chinese corvettes and German frigates"
> Jane's Navy International - The global magazine of naval operations and technology



Supposedly (see CDF, post by Xuinhui) these corvette will be about 2800 tons..... (i.e. more like F22P size.). The frigates are Meko A200, like those of the South African navy
http://www.china-defense.com/smf/in...ies=234;sesc=e187f52c092ac71164af66e53ff11380

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## regular

rishisankaran said:


> Wish you could have exhibited some hard facts before coming up with an assumption that stealth ships are easy to develop. Well I wish it was that easy right from the steel grade and usage of radar absorbent material is in itself a science of its own. And it takes for sure some time for a country to develop especially a country which doesn't have an in-house frigate or destroyer manufacturing capability. Wish Pakistan had designed and manufactured its own warships in large numbers. I do support that due to the lack of full capability you can built upon what China has to offer to you and it would work well as they are your strategic partners. Designing and building a stealth ship is not like building a catamaran or fishing boat it does require an expertise in Naval architecture and ship designing.
> 
> Hope that clarifies !!


I guess we got excellent talent for the Naval Architecture and ship designing the only thing that matters is the $$$ cuz our Naval budget is very poor......



Penguin said:


> And then what? You want to start a nuclear exchange by taking out a carrier with a nuke, escalating a non-nuclear conflict in to a nuclear one? Missile too can get shot down, incidentally, so there remains the question of whether a few nuke-tipped compact cruise missile would suffice.


Yes! Exactly, U got my point right.....umm.....


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## Penguin




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## oct605032048

PNS 1013 in Hong Kong SAR.

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## Donatello

I always wonder what the crew bunks/kitchen etc look like on board these sized ships?


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## Nishan_101

Instead of building the 2nd one we should have gone for a total of 7 of these in the first phase of induction by 2015. I am sure we can produce about three at a time in our ship yards. I am really very worried about the Subs, PN should have gone for 5 Agosta-90Bs along with the upgrades of Agosta-70s in 2002/2003 to remain in service till 2017. Like instead of of the third Agosta-90B we should have produce 3rd and a 4th one and then a fifth one later on. Then we can sign a JV deal with Germans on SSKs as well.

How many crew members are there in a FAC?


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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> Instead of building the 2nd one we should have gone for a total of 7 of these in the first phase of induction by 2015. I am sure we can produce about three at a time in our ship yards. I am really very worried about the Subs, PN should have gone for 5 Agosta-90Bs along with the upgrades of Agosta-70s in 2002/2003 to remain in service till 2017. Like instead of of the third Agosta-90B we should have produce 3rd and a 4th one and then a fifth one later on. Then we can sign a JV deal with Germans on SSKs as well.
> 
> How many crew members are there in a FAC?





> ... the second FACM is being constructed in Pakistan at Karachi Shipbuilding & Engineering Works (KS&EW) under a technology transfer agreement with China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Company (CSOC). Even though the initial project is for two ships, KS&EW officials have indicated that _eventual numbers could total as many as 6-8 ships_.
> ...
> Ongoing joint Sino-Pak naval projects include the local construction of PNS Aslat, a 123-meter, 3500-ton F-22P frigate at KS&EW, four more frigates to an improved F-22P design, and significantly, procurement of Chinese-origin submarines, including one or more nuclear-powered submarines.
> ...


New Fast Attack Craft Commissioned for Pakistani Navy | Defense Media Network 
[Many ship details included in the article]

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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> I always wonder what the crew bunks/kitchen etc look like on board these sized ships?


ever you visit inside of any fast food? its same nothing fresh there everything freezes lolz subs are worse lolz they use tin pack too.

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## Johny D

Imran Khan said:


> ever you visit inside of any fast food? its same nothing fresh there everything freezes lolz subs are worse lolz they use tin pack too.



imran bhai...after long long time..kya lamba ban tha kya? ;-)


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

Leaving Hong Kong

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## Nishan_101

We really need to have a total of 7 of these ASAP till 2015, we should build 6 of these at home.


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## notsuperstitious

Apologies if already answered, but whats with the blackening in the middle of the ship and at the end. The middle one may be some kind of stealth exhaust?


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## regular

Imran Khan said:


> ever you visit inside of any fast food? its same nothing fresh there everything freezes lolz subs are worse lolz they use tin pack too.


Imran bhai yeh aap ki post General seh kam ho ker Brigadier per kayse aa gayei?? our aap ki no. of posts bhi kumm ho gayeen???
Imran Bhai when did U visit any subz.....???.....


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## Donatello

Penguin said:


> New Fast Attack Craft Commissioned for Pakistani Navy | Defense Media Network
> [Many ship details included in the article]



Wow, okay, so basically 4 more F-22Ps are confirmed and so are Subs. SO i guess the procurement funds are now coming PNs way...


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## Penguin

fateh71 said:


> Apologies if already answered, but whats with the blackening in the middle of the ship and at the end. The middle one may be some kind of stealth exhaust?


Exhaust, nothing stealth about it.

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## Penguin

Chinese play key role in Pakistan&#8217;s new naval projects

Underscoring the growing relationship between Pakistan and China in the field of naval shipbuilding are two significant projects involving technology transfer from China Shipbuilding & Trading Company (CSTC)/China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co Ltd (CSOC) to Karachi Shipbuilding & Engineering Works (KS&EW).

Read about it in: Warship Technology May 2012 (Royal Institute of Naval Architects publication)



> The missile suite consists of two sets of quad C802A surface to surface missiles (SSM) that are actually more advanced than those on the F22P frigates.

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## IceCold

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> Leaving Hong Kong



Its a beautiful pic. Sorry i have downloaded it as my screen wallpaper but without permission. Though i am no fan of fast attack crafts such as this as it lacks the punch PN very desperately needs but the view was too hard to resist.

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

more pics when arriving Hong Kong (original author - &#36867;&#29359;/Escaped Convict @ FYSJ.cn forum)











leaving Hong Kong

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## Areesh

It is a FAC but still some really good pics.


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## Nishan_101

there two things which might be possible: If we can remove the boat at the rear and place it somewhere else then we can have two more cells for the missiles. And also, the main gun with 76m.m gun????


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

When Azmat was in Hong Kong

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## Humza Ghazi

AZmat is coming watch out enemies.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

When Azmat was in Hong Kong (original author - &#36867;&#29359;/Escaped Convict @ FYSJ.cn forum)

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## explorer9

Penguin said:


> Chinese play key role in Pakistan&#8217;s new naval projects
> 
> Underscoring the growing relationship between Pakistan and China in the field of naval shipbuilding are two significant projects involving technology transfer from China Shipbuilding & Trading Company (CSTC)/China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co Ltd (CSOC) to Karachi Shipbuilding & Engineering Works (KS&EW).
> 
> Read about it in: Warship Technology May 2012 (Royal Institute of Naval Architects publication)


Thanks for the link , its informative article on the growing capabilities of KS&EW new STUS of PN are 1650 tonnage ships.


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## ziaulislam

if i am not wrong it seems each cell consists of 4 c-802. 
So a max of 8 C-802A missiles


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## Mohsin A

PNS Azmat looks great but i feel it lacks the needed punch.


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## razgriz19

Mohsin A said:


> PNS Azmat looks great but i feel it lacks the needed punch.



what do you mean it lacks the needed punch?
It is a FAC, its suppose to deliver anti-ship missiles quickly and which it does very efficiently!

it is not a frigate or a destroyer.


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## razgriz19

Penguin said:


> Chinese play key role in Pakistan&#8217;s new naval projects
> 
> Underscoring the growing relationship between Pakistan and China in the field of naval shipbuilding are two significant projects involving technology transfer from China Shipbuilding & Trading Company (CSTC)/China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co Ltd (CSOC) to Karachi Shipbuilding & Engineering Works (KS&EW).
> 
> Read about it in: Warship Technology May 2012 (Royal Institute of Naval Architects publication)



the article also states that new F-22P might be equiped with VLS SAMs!! =D


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## Penguin

razgriz19 said:


> the article also states that new F-22P might be equiped with VLS SAMs!! =D


Yep, noted that in the other thread on F22P



razgriz19 said:


> what do you mean it lacks the needed punch?
> It is a FAC, its suppose to deliver anti-ship missiles quickly and which it does very efficiently!
> 
> it is not a frigate or a destroyer.


In fact, Azmat has an equal number but better SSMs than Zulfiquar (F22P) does.

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## Armstrong

Penguin said:


> Yep, noted that in the other thread on F22P
> 
> 
> In fact, Azmat has an equal number but better SSMs than Zulfiquar (F22P) does.



So *Penguin* 'value-for-money' wise would you rate the Azmat class 'high, medium or low' ? Assuming that such a rating is possible ! 

By the way I was thinking about 'the JF-17' when I used the term 'value-for-money' !


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## Arsalan

it lacks speed, 30 32 knots is a bit low for FAC!
however, for weapon load, it have the capability to deliver what it is meant for, ANTI SHIP MISSILE,
it carries 8 C-802 missiles that are reported to be improved version then the F-22p frigates. it is a FAC and not meant to carry heavy air defence equipment.
in my view, it do carry the punch it was designed to deliver, BUT, the speed is slow for an FAC!


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## Penguin

High: most of its work will be patrolling during peace time conditions, for which is it quite suitable. It can also perform a usefull coastal defence role during wartime: posing a threat to any enemy ships attempting to approach Pakistan's coast, while patrolling the coast under air force cover and maintaining EMCON (using her own ESM and receiving target data from other assets) thus maximizing her strengths e.g. stealthy design. Passive detection ranges tend to be better than active detection ranges. It won't have to go out hunting to be usefull, hence the relatively low speed of 30kn (which still is 55km/h!) isn't an issue: if she comes across anything significantly faster then there are jets and helicopters to deal with that.

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## Arsalan

Penguin said:


> High: most of its work will be patrolling during peace time conditions, for which is it quite suitable. It can also perform a usefull coastal defence role during wartime: posing a threat to any enemy ships attempting to approach Pakistan's coast, while patrolling the coast under air force cover and maintaining EMCON (using her own ESM and receiving target data from other assets) thus maximizing her strengths e.g. stealthy design. Passive detection ranges tend to be better than active detection ranges. It won't have to go out hunting to be usefull, hence the relatively low speed of 30kn (which still is 55km/h!) isn't an issue: if she comes across anything significantly faster then there are jets and helicopters to deal with that.



agreed to an extent,
it lack air defense, no issues, it is not meant for air defense duties and will be fighting under air cover of ground based fighter jets and air defense systems. it is more of a sea denial or what you can say coast defense system them a sea control unit (that is not our doctrine), for this role, it do carry 8 C-802A missiles, well capable of striking enemy ships approaching our sea for a good range.
what i think it lacks is Speed and just speed, an FAC even in coast defense duties need to be fast enough to be a fast attack craft. it should be able to sneak close to enemy, being smaller and stealthier, deliver its fire power, and run back. in defense duties, must be able to report on any point in short time and get ready to face incoming threats.
no doubt 30 knots is NOT SLOW for naval ships, but for FAC it is.

all said, i think this is a department that wont effect the performance to an extent to call the ship a dud.
it is a great induction, with great anti ship missiles and stealthier design!

so all in all, i nice move in right direction.


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## fatman17

both FAC have been purchased to deploy them in the coastal 'creek' areas to deny the IN similar incursions.


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## Rafi

Azmat touring brotherly Hong Kong

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## S.Y.A

at least a CIWS for some degree of air defence.....still disappointed with its lack of SPEED and NO AIR DEFENCE.



Rafi said:


> Azmat touring brotherly Hong Kong



and why no sound except a boring music?


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## Arsalan

S.Y.A said:


> at least a CIWS for some degree of air defence.....still disappointed with its lack of SPEED and NO AIR DEFENCE.
> 
> 
> 
> and why no sound except a boring music?



dear, as many have explained, these FAC are to be deployed near coast to avoid IN incursion and will almost always be working under ground based air defense umbrella of fighter jets and air defense batteries! so lack of air defense is justified. why spend on something that the boat is not meant to do!
for speed, yes! faster speed will help them reach to points where they are required but the lond range anti ship missiles cover that short coming to some extent. these are more of coastal patrol ship with lethal anti ship fire power and good endurance, also able to operate in deeper water unlike old patrol boats!
over all, a good induction to the surface fleet.
remember, for PN, the sea control responsibility of deep water sea denial have always rested with submerged units! Agostas and the rumored Qing will sea more action!

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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> at least a CIWS for some degree of air defence.....still disappointed with its lack of SPEED and NO AIR DEFENCE.


You should note the Chinese Type 022 wave-piercing catamaran has even less armament and is only 6 knots faster. Nonetheless, PLAN currently has 3 flotillas (83 units).


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## S.Y.A

arsalanaslam123 said:


> dear, as many have explained, these FAC are to be deployed near coast to avoid IN incursion and will almost always be working under ground based air defense umbrella of fighter jets and air defense batteries! so lack of air defense is justified. why spend on something that the boat is not meant to do!
> for speed, yes! faster speed will help them reach to points where they are required but the lond range anti ship missiles cover that short coming to some extent. these are more of coastal patrol ship with lethal anti ship fire power and good endurance, also able to operate in deeper water unlike old patrol boats!
> over all, a good induction to the surface fleet.
> remember, for PN, the sea control responsibility of deep water sea denial have always rested with submerged units! Agostas and the rumored Qing will sea more action!



Pakistan does not have a large airforce, it will already be stretching its resources to the limit during a war, supporting army, air defence, supporting navy....until and unless navy has a substantial air wing, these boats are useless


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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> Pakistan does not have a large airforce, it will already be stretching its resources to the limit during a war, supporting army, air defence, supporting navy....until and unless navy has a substantial air wing, these boats are useless


So? Their intended use is 1) peacetime patrol unit, with 2) secondary wartime role. Not the other way around. By your reasoning even F22P and Type 21s and Perry is useless.

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## regular

Nice small craftship, looks very useful in fast and stealthy attacks against the enemies Naval ships during the wartimes.....


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## S.Y.A

Penguin said:


> So? Their intended use is 1) peacetime patrol unit, with 2) secondary wartime role. Not the other way around. By your reasoning even F22P and Type 21s and Perry is useless.



yes they are useless, they wont be able to survive long in any conflict



regular said:


> Nice small craftship, looks very useful in fast and stealthy attacks against the enemies Naval ships during the wartimes.....



it is not fast just stealthy, even a frigate can achieve 30-35 knots


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## Penguin

In fact, most frigates and corvettes (excl corvettes that are really FAC-M 'on steroids') do not break the 30 kn barrier.


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## Rafi

Penguin said:


> In fact, most frigates and corvettes (excl corvettes that are really FAC-M 'on steroids') do not break the 30 kn barrier.



Penguin, couldn't Azmat be classified as a OPV, or even a Corvette - it's endurance and creature comforts, ie galley, sleeping quarters are much superior than normal FAC.


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## aziqbal

Penguin said:


> You should note the Chinese Type 022 wave-piercing catamaran has even less armament and is only 6 knots faster. Nonetheless, PLAN currently has 3 flotillas (83 units).



China currently has at maximum 8 sqaudrons with 5 idenified with 7 located 

2 x Sqaudrons in NSF
2 x Sqaudrons in ESF
3 x Sqaudrons in SSF

each sqaudron used to have 8 but now has 12 units each, so giving a minimum of 60 units or a maximum of 96, if 7 sqaudrons are counted then it is 84 Type 022s


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## Penguin

Rafi said:


> Penguin, couldn't Azmat be classified as a OPV, or even a Corvette - it's endurance and creature comforts, ie galley, sleeping quarters are much superior than normal FAC.


OPVs don't carry this kind of armament (8 SSM). At 500-600 tons it is too small to be classed a corvette.


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## regular

S.Y.A said:


> it is not fast just stealthy, even a frigate can achieve 30-35 knots


I guess we need to modify it a little bit with an extra rudder to achieve its fast speed to 40++....U are right about that its not fast but medium speed....


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## Penguin

29.05.12 PNS Azmat in Colombo.





29.05.12

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## nomi007

when azmat saab will reach home


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## Nishan_101

I hope that PN will produce 6 of these.


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## Hyde

*New craft inducted into Pakistan Navy*

From Rezaul H Laskar Islamabad, Jun 21 (PTI) A Chinese-made fast attack craft armed with missiles was inducted into the Pakistan Navy today, with Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee chairman Gen Khalid Wynne saying the vessel's firepower would help strengthen the defence of the country's territorial waters. The PNS Azmat was formally inducted in the Pakistan Navy during a ceremony held at the naval dockyard in Karachi. The fast attack craft is the first vessel of its kind in the Pakistani fleet. Wynne said Pakistan had been a proponent of peaceful coexistence and had no aggressive designs against any country. However, he added that Pakistan could not "remain oblivious of the requirements of the country's defence". PNS Azmat is the embodiment of the Pakistan Navy's endeavours to remain relevant in the contemporary environment through the induction of modern platforms. He said he was sure the capabilities and firepower of the PNS Azmat would help strengthen the defence of the country's territorial waters. Another fast attack craft of the same class is being built at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. Wynne also lauded the defence cooperation between China and Pakistan and said the longstanding ties between the two sides are a "manifestation of an enduring, multidimensional and deep-rooted relation". The PNS Azmat is fitted with modern weapons and sensors and a variety of "soft and hard kill terminal defence systems", officials said. The vessel will provide operational flexibility to the navy, they said.

Source: New craft inducted into Pakistan Navy, IBN Live News and Dunya News TV

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## Edevelop

^^ Excellent news


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## Nishan_101

I think Pakistan Navy should have done a JV with Chinese and produce 21 of these in 15 years like 7 FAC in every five years time with upgrades.

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## Zarvan

Islamabad: A Chinese-made fast attack craft armed with missiles was inducted into the Pakistan Navy on Thursday, with Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee chairman Gen Khalid Wynne saying the vessel's firepower would help strengthen the defence of the country's territorial waters. 

The PNS Azmat was formally inducted in the Pakistan Navy during a ceremony held at the naval dockyard in Karachi. 

The fast attack craft is the first vessel of its kind in the Pakistani fleet. 

Wynne said Pakistan had been a proponent of peaceful coexistence and had no aggressive designs against any country. 



However, he added that Pakistan could not "remain oblivious of the requirements of the country's defence". 

PNS Azmat is the embodiment of the Pakistan Navy's endeavours to remain relevant in the contemporary environment through the induction of modern platforms. 

He said he was sure the capabilities and firepower of the PNS Azmat would help strengthen the defence of the country's territorial waters. 

Another fast attack craft of the same class is being built at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. 

Wynne also lauded the defence cooperation between China and Pakistan and said the longstanding ties between the two sides are a "manifestation of an enduring, multidimensional and deep-rooted relation". 

The PNS Azmat is fitted with modern weapons and sensors and a variety of "soft and hard kill terminal defence systems", officials said. 

The vessel will provide operational flexibility to the navy, they said. 

PTI

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## fatman17

Friday, June 22, 2012 

*Pakistan Navy inducts first fast-attack craft*

* Naval chief says navy committed for safe maritime environment

* Induction of new craft will provide operational flexibility



KARACHI: Pakistan&#8217;s first fast-attack craft (missile) PNS Azmat was formally inducted in Pakistan Navy in a ceremony held at the PN Dockyard on Thursday.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (JCSC) Chairman General Khalid Shameem Wynne was the chief guest on the occasion. PNS Azmat is the first ship of its kind in the Pakistan Navy fleet.

The craft has been designed and constructed by the China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC). The ship was commissioned as PNS Azmat in China on April 23.

Speaking on the occasion, the chief guest said that Pakistan Navy&#8217;s multiple international deployments were a manifestation of its commitment to guarantee a safe and conducive maritime environment for the world.

He said that PNS Azmat was an embodiment of the persistent endeavours of Pakistan Navy to remain relevant to the contemporary environment through induction of state-of-the-art technology. Wynne said that indigenous capability of defence production had been the aim of Pakistan&#8217;s armed forces and the fast attack craft programme would contribute to achieve that target by constructing a second craft at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works.

He lauded the defence cooperation between China and Pakistan, saying the longstanding ties between the two countries were a manifestation of an enduring, multidimensional and deep-rooted relationship. He hoped that defence collaboration between the two countries would grow in the times to come.

Earlier, in his welcome address, Vice Admiral Zakaullah said that induction of PNS Azmat was a moment of pride for Pakistan in general and Pakistan Navy in particular. He apprised the audience that the ship was extremely agile and capable of undertaking multiple roles, adding that it was fitted with modern weapons and sensors and a variety of defence systems. He added that the induction of the craft would provide operational flexibility to safeguard the country&#8217;s maritime interests effectively.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Asif Sandila, a large number of navy officers and personnel of the China Shipbuilding and Offshore Company attended the ceremony.

The chief guest handed over the ship scroll to the Pakistan fleet commander. He visited PNS Azmat and was introduced to the project team.

With the induction of its first fast-attack craft, the Pakistan Navy has become the first force in the region to have this advanced defence capability. *app*

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## Arsalan

*News Report*
*Pakistan Navy inducts first fast-attack craft*






regards!

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## Penguin



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## Darth Vader

Associated Press of Pakistan

Karachi: The first Fast Attack Craft (Missile) PNS Azmat has been formally inducted in Pakistan Navy Fleet in a ceremony held at PN Dockyard here on Thursday. The Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), General Khalid Shameem Wyyne, was the chief guest on the occasion.

PNS Azmat is the first ship of its kind in Pakistan Navy Fleet. This Fast Attack Craft Missile has been designed and constructed by the China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC). The ship was commissioned as PNS Azmat in China on April 23, 2012.

Speaking on the occasion, the chief guest General Khalid Shameem Wyyne said that Pakistan Navy&#8217;s multiple international deployments are the manifestation of Pakistan Navy&#8217;s commitment to guarantee a safe and conducive maritime environment for the world.

He said that PNS Azmat is an embodiment of the persistent endeavor of Pakistan Navy to remain relevant to the contemporary environment through induction of state of the art platforms.

General Wayyne said that indigenous capability of defence production has been the aim of Pakistan Armed forces and the FAC(M) programme will fulfill this aspect by construction of second Attack Craft at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering works. He lauded the defence co-operation between China and Pakistan and said that the longstanding ties between the two countries are a manifestation of an enduring, multidimensional and deep routed relation.

He hoped that the defence collaboration between the two countries will grow in times to come. Earlier, in his welcome address, Commander Pakistan Fleet, Vice Admiral Zakaullah said that induction of PNS Azmat is a moment of pride for Pakistan in general and Pakistan Navy in particular.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like a conventional coast guard ship

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## alimobin memon

How's it most advanced ship in it's regions?


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## farhan_9909

progress on the one FAC to be manufactured in KSEW?


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## explorer9

farhan_9909 said:


> progress on the one FAC to be manufactured in KSEW?



Yes, i wanted to ask the same question & i think the platforms are not enough in the PN fleet there should be at least 4 platforms of one type.


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## K-Xeroid

alimobin memon said:


> How's it most advanced ship in it's regions?


Due to stealth teachnology, Well ! This FAC and Naval Airforce reflects that PN finally have an offensive war doctrine too. Remembering that operation python of india which had proved that Missile boat can become disasterous in case of wars . 
How many of these FAC we are going to get, there will be few indigenious develop FAC we will going to equipped ,are they will be stealthy too?


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## monitor

How it compare to new Chinese corvette TYPE 56


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## Penguin

monitor said:


> How it compare to new Chinese corvette TYPE 56



Type 056 is about twice the displacement. It has a lighter loadout of AShM (4 versus 8) and no AK630 but carries a bigger gun (76mm) forward, with 2x remote control 30mm cannon on the flanks. It also has a flight deck, which could be used by helicopters and/or rotary wing UAVs. Importantly, it has a SAM system (other than sailor held MANPADS). The 056 probably has comparable speed but greater range/endurance/seaworthiness.


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## satishkumarcsc

Android K-Zero said:


> Due to stealth teachnology, Well ! This FAC and Naval Airforce reflects that PN finally have an offensive war doctrine too. Remembering that operation python of india which had proved that Missile boat can become disasterous in case of wars .
> How many of these FAC we are going to get, there will be few indigenious develop FAC we will going to equipped ,are they will be stealthy too?



Uh comparing a 1971 scenario with 2012 is really stupid according to my PoV. It was an audacious attack where AShM was used for land attack...it was one of a few times this was done. And yeah AShM create a ruckus for the fleets but this is a very well needed aition to the PN. 

And the Azmat class is no offensive ship...at best it is the most effective defensive weapon that Pakistan possesses right now...F22 and Alamgir will be the frontal thrust ships as they are far well equipped to take care of themselves in High seas compared to the Azmat.


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## K-Xeroid

satishkumarcsc said:


> Uh comparing a 1971 scenario with 2012 is really stupid according to my PoV. It was an audacious attack where AShM was used for land attack...it was one of a few times this was done. And yeah AShM create a ruckus for the fleets but this is a very well needed aition to the PN.
> 
> And the Azmat class is no offensive ship...at best it is the most effective defensive weapon that Pakistan possesses right now...F22 and Alamgir will be the frontal thrust ships as they are far well equipped to take care of themselves in High seas compared to the Azmat.


Well! stealth FAC's can be more supportive and effective interms of any strike even today as well, Nations with comparatively less coastal area and with smaller defence budget can effort it and are using it as a major striking weapon. Yea! during 71 INS vinash had played a vital role and striked in depth to our coastal areas which also had caused large number of civilian deaths. AShM can be used for multi purpose whether it is SS-N-2B or C-802. With PNS Alamgir and zulfiqar class frigates + 14 to 20 FAC with Air support ,we create a strong enough force to strike any intruder fleet in our coastal area or near to our coastal area. I'm just considering provided options here.


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## satishkumarcsc

Android K-Zero said:


> Well! stealth FAC's can be more supportive and effective interms of any strike even today as well, Nations with comparatively less coastal area and with smaller defence budget can effort it and are using it as a major striking weapon. Yea! during 71 INS vinash had played a vital role and striked in depth to our coastal areas which also had caused large number of civilian deaths. AShM can be used for multi purpose whether it is SS-N-2B or C-802. With PNS Alamgir and zulfiqar class frigates + 14 to 20 FAC with Air support ,we create a strong enough force to strike any intruder fleet in our coastal area or near to our coastal area. I'm just considering provided options here.



Well what we did was out of sheer desperation and we got lucky....that is all Operation Python and Trident were...it was like a suicide mission. Even IN wouldn't try it again. But having an FAC is really great for thwarting attacks like these pretty well and will be a great addition fo patrol during peace time and costal defence during war.


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## K-Xeroid

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well what we did was out of sheer desperation and we got lucky....that is all Operation Python and Trident were...it was like a suicide mission. Even IN wouldn't try it again. But having an FAC is really great for thwarting attacks like these pretty well and will be a great addition fo patrol during peace time and costal defence during war.


That operation succeded due to shoratage of ammunation in PN inventory, when our only naval supplier U.S at then had stopped supplying weapon to us since after 65. that experience thaught us to go for self reliance . Right now our navy need an strong naval fleet which atleast counter its enemy when someone tries to block our supplies in Arabian sea and FACs are the part of it.


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## nomi007



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## smartkhanjee786

Kya ya project kamyab hogaya or fail ?


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## Penguin

nomi007 said:


>



I fail to see what a 3000 ton Freedom Class littoral combat ship, a 40+ kt semi-planing steel monohull design, has to do with the 560 ton Azmat class, whic does boaut 30. Really, shaping of the superstructure aside, there is no comparison, not even in the area of stealth.


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## satishkumarcsc

Android K-Zero said:


> That operation succeded due to shoratage of ammunation in PN inventory, when our only naval supplier U.S at then had stopped supplying weapon to us since after 65. that experience thaught us to go for self reliance . Right now our navy need an strong naval fleet which *atleast counter its enemy when someone tries to block our supplies in Arabian sea* and FACs are the part of it.



Your Subs will be a far better bet compared to your FAC in sea denial role. Instead of taking your FACs without any air cover your frigates will do a better job.


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## S.Y.A

someone please expand this article in the wikipedia:
PNS Azmat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



satishkumarcsc said:


> Your Subs will be a far better bet compared to your FAC in sea denial role. Instead of taking your FACs without any air cover your frigates will do a better job.



the F22Ps have inadequate air defence system I dont think they can last much long either in case of an intense confilct


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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> someone please expand this article in the wikipedia:
> PNS Azmat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> the F22Ps have inadequate air defence system I dont think they can last much long either in case of an intense confilct


Some points to consider:
- All F22P will have a SAM plus 2 gun CIWS, whereas with the ex-RN Type 21s just 3 have SAM but no CIWS (just regular 30mm AAA) and 3 have CIWS but no SAM.
- Inadequate compared to what? P25 Khukri and P25A Kora classes have only AK630/Manpads, yet serve in IN fleet formations. P16/16A have BARAK + AK230/AK630, which is fine for close in but not exactly good air defence either if/when operating alone, outside a fleet formation (which is what PN ships do routinely). While Batch 1 project 11356 combined Shtil with Kashtan CIWS, the batch 2 ships do no have Kashtan, just AK630: the remarks for P16/16A apply here too.
- The single carries operational with IN carries 16 Barak, a pair of AK230 and 2 Bofors 40. That too hardly qualifies as adequate air defence if ever she got caught with her SHARs away on mission.
- PN will - as much as possible - employ surface assets under cover of land based aviation.

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## aziqbal

Penguin 


can you tell me how to download the latest article of warship technology? i cant find it from the website 

The Royal Institution of Naval Architects -RINA

heres one from May issue 

Thanks 


Warship Technology May 2012 (Royal Institute of Naval Architects publication)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-missile-discussion-17.html#ixzz1zJdDpYv5


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## S.Y.A

Penguin said:


> Some points to consider:
> - All F22P will have a SAM plus 2 gun CIWS, whereas with the ex-RN Type 21s just 3 have SAM but no CIWS (just regular 30mm AAA) and 3 have CIWS but no SAM.
> - Inadequate compared to what? P25 Khukri and P25A Kora classes have only AK630/Manpads, yet serve in IN fleet formations. P16/16A have BARAK + AK230/AK630, which is fine for close in but not exactly good air defence either if/when operating alone, outside a fleet formation (which is what PN ships do routinely). While Batch 1 project 11356 combined Shtil with Kashtan CIWS, the batch 2 ships do no have Kashtan, just AK630: the remarks for P16/16A apply here too.
> - The single carries operational with IN carries 16 Barak, a pair of AK230 and 2 Bofors 40. That too hardly qualifies as adequate air defence if ever she got caught with her SHARs away on mission.
> - PN will - as much as possible - employ surface assets under cover of land based aviation.



Pakistan navy does not have a very terrifying air wing, IN has, so PN will be in far more trouble as compared to IN

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## Myth_buster_1

Penguin said:


> I fail to see what a 3000 ton Freedom Class littoral combat ship, a 40+ kt semi-planing steel monohull design, has to do with the 560 ton Azmat class, whic does boaut 30. Really, shaping of the superstructure aside, there is no comparison, not even in the area of stealth.



Or you could have simple said "WRONG PIC" and saved yourself some time


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## Penguin

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Or you could have simple said "WRONG PIC" and saved yourself some time


Hey this is passtime for me, so why rush ;-)



S.Y.A said:


> Pakistan navy does not have a very terrifying air wing, IN has, so PN will be in far more trouble as compared to IN


There is no denying the asymmetry. 
But so what?
Then no matter what you pack on how large a ship, you're doomed anyway. 
End of discussion afaic.

(PN doesn't only exist to ward off IN, just as it is not IN sole task to hit on PN.)



aziqbal said:


> Penguin
> 
> 
> can you tell me how to download the latest article of warship technology? i cant find it from the website
> 
> The Royal Institution of Naval Architects -RINA
> 
> heres one from May issue
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Warship Technology May 2012 (Royal Institute of Naval Architects publication)
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-missile-discussion-17.html#ixzz1zJdDpYv5



Warship Technology

I suppose next Jul/Aug 2012 issue isn't out/online yet.
Warship Technology Online

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## Shadow_Hunter

Penguin said:


> Some points to consider:
> - All F22P will have a SAM plus 2 gun CIWS, whereas with the ex-RN Type 21s just 3 have SAM but no CIWS (just regular 30mm AAA) and 3 have CIWS but no SAM.
> - Inadequate compared to what? P25 Khukri and P25A Kora classes have only AK630/Manpads, yet serve in IN fleet formations. P16/16A have BARAK + AK230/AK630, which is fine for close in but not exactly good air defence either if/when operating alone, outside a fleet formation (which is what PN ships do routinely). While Batch 1 project 11356 combined Shtil with Kashtan CIWS, the batch 2 ships do no have Kashtan, just AK630: the remarks for P16/16A apply here too.
> - The single carries operational with IN carries 16 Barak, a pair of AK230 and 2 Bofors 40. That too hardly qualifies as adequate air defence if ever she got caught with her SHARs away on mission.
> - PN will - as much as possible - employ surface assets under cover of land based aviation.



You are comparing 25 years old ships with Azmat that has been inducted recently. Those ships will be retired soon, but Azmat will not be. Hence, the armament should be adequate considering not only the present situation but future as well. Compare its armament with INS Teg & then tell what do you feel.

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## cirr

Don't know if you have seen these pictures of Azmat&#65306;

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## zulfiqar74

hasnain0099 said:


> to add to this, this is a "fast attack craft" meaning its fast, its more responsive and more manuverable, thus making is less suspectable to incoming antiship missiles who are ment for targetting rather slow moving or ideally stationary target. Thus i see little reason to see airdefence systems installed to the level of a destroyer, ACC or even a frigate.
> 
> 
> I personally think its more of a roll out than induction ceremoney, the most i can think is that PN would be conducting sea trials after induction which makes little sense if approperiate infrastructure to support lacks at KSW. However, there is a parallal construction project going on in Karachi as well which could, at best, explain the reason of quick induction.



Well it doesent matter if its a destroyer or frigate, there should be some sort of point of air defence system installed. 
You are spending 50 million on a project from which you will be expanding into further upgraded versions. So some sort of creativity is required to fullfill all the requirements of a advance well equipt offence and defence ship as currently it does not seem to be a complete package. It Would be great to see some sort of air defence on these boats such as RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile, or Phalanx CIWS or SAMS and chaffs to make it a well equipt ship in every aspect.......

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## monitor

another view of Azmat




Probably inside the Azmat

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## S.Y.A

Penguin said:


> Hey this is passtime for me, so why rush ;-)
> 
> 
> There is no denying the asymmetry.
> But so what?
> Then no matter what you pack on how large a ship, you're doomed anyway.
> End of discussion afaic.
> 
> (PN doesn't only exist to ward off IN, just as it is not IN sole task to hit on PN.)
> 
> 
> 
> Warship Technology
> 
> I suppose next Jul/Aug 2012 issue isn't out/online yet.
> Warship Technology Online



the thing is that the radar range is 17km and search, track and engage range of system on F22P is 15km (though not a very big problem according to you since IN ships doesnt have a good SAM either)

and no one expanded the article, which was my original post


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## Penguin

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You are comparing 25 years old ships with Azmat that has been inducted recently. Those ships will be retired soon, but Azmat will not be. Hence, the armament should be adequate considering not only the present situation but future as well. Compare its armament with INS Teg & then tell what do you feel.



Only a MORON would compare a fast patrol boat (600 ton) to a frigate (4000 ton).... go away!

As for F22P versus pr. 11356 ... 

3000t versus 4000t
76mm versus 100mm
8 C802 versus 8 brahmos
2 30mm ciws versus 2 ak630
15km Fm90 verus 35-50 km Shtil

mmmm , not that much of a difference when attacked by jets or subs with Harpoon class missiles....

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## regular

monitor said:


> another view of Azmat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably inside the Azmat


No!!! It can't be Azmat cuz it looks too much spacious from inside whereas the Azmat is not that spacious........


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## twocents

What's the latest on the second craft to be built in Karachi? Any news on that?


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## regular

no latest updates yet.I guess our progress is slow there......


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## Bossman

zulfiqar74 said:


> Well it doesent matter if its a destroyer or frigate, there should be some sort of point of air defence system installed.
> You are spending 50 million on a project from which you will be expanding into further upgraded versions. So some sort of creativity is required to fullfill all the requirements of a advance well equipt offence and defence ship as currently it does not seem to be a complete package. It Would be great to see some sort of air defence on these boats such as RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile, or Phalanx CIWS or SAMS and chaffs to make it a well equipt ship in every aspect.......


 
It has a CIWS, look at the picture from the rear.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Penguin said:


> Only a MORON would compare a fast patrol boat (600 ton) to a frigate (4000 ton).... go away!
> 
> As for F22P versus pr. 11356 ...
> 
> 3000t versus 4000t
> 76mm versus 100mm
> 8 C802 versus 8 brahmos
> 2 30mm ciws versus 2 ak630
> 15km Fm90 verus 35-50 km Shtil
> 
> mmmm , not that much of a difference when attacked by jets or subs with Harpoon class missiles....





And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships. 

Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??

F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.

Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.

Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now

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## Bossman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Similarly, only a MORON will compare a recently inducted ship with an 25 year old one.
> 
> And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships.
> 
> Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??
> 
> F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.
> 
> Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.
> d
> Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now



You must be a moran, what makes you think all Pakistan ships don't have manpads and they are French Mistrel. CIWS is the best proven option against missiles and BTW FM90 does have limited CIWS capability.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Bossman said:


> You must be a moran, what makes you think all Pakistan ships don't have manpads and they are French Mistrel. CIWS is the best proven option against missiles and BTW FM90 does have limited CIWS capability.



That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world. 

Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K


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## alimobin memon

Azmat is fast attack boat not Cruiser that it has Everything as Airdefense


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## TaimiKhan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.
> 
> Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K



Is it for sure that the FAC will face a Mig-29??

The FAC will operate close to the shore line, mostly under the air protection of PAF, and then again we don't know what is theRCS of this FAC, at what range the Indian Mig-29 will detect it, or any other Indian assets in the vicinity. Its small, it has stealth features, so may be by the time it gets detected it may already have launched its missiles, hit and run tactics. And then it has its own CIWS for missile defence and most probably MANPADS for visually seen targets. 

As of now, we have no idea what will happen in the war scenario, but this FAC will be close to the shore line and may be used in hit and run attacks.

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## Shadow_Hunter

TaimiKhan said:


> Is it for sure that the FAC will face a Mig-29??
> 
> The FAC will operate close to the shore line, mostly under the air protection of PAF, and then again we don't know what is theRCS of this FAC, at what range the Indian Mig-29 will detect it, or any other Indian assets in the vicinity. Its small, it has stealth features, so may be by the time it gets detected it may already have launched its missiles, hit and run tactics. And then it has its own CIWS for missile defence and most probably MANPADS for visually seen targets.
> 
> As of now, we have no idea what will happen in the war scenario, but this FAC will be close to the shore line and may be used in hit and run attacks.



Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.

Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?


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## Bossman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.
> 
> Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K


 
As one of the posters has already stated Azmat will not meet Mig29K because by then your aircraft carrier would have already met a Pakistan submarine.

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## Bossman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.
> 
> Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?


 
There was no real blockade of Karachi in 1971, yes there was a very successful Osa missile boat raid by IN on the port. But by the same token remember what happened to INS Kukri and Kirpan. Indian Missile boat capability in 1971 was unique thanks to Russian largess and Pakistan had no match or counter for it. Pakistan had no air surveillance capability to speak except for some civillian aircraft i.e. PIA Fokkers and Twin Otters inducted with nothing but visual search. IN was operating TU142 bears maritime reconnaissance plane with Soviet crews to provide cover to the missile boats. 

In case of war commericial shipping stops going to war zone due insurance issues so it will have the same impact on India as much as on Pakistan so in other word blockades is something kids mastarbute to. India tried to do a show of force after the Parliment attack in 2002 by bring its fleet out to the Arabian Sea during the monsoon, they were forced back to the port within a week or so because it was impossible to maintain any sustainable operational readiness beyond a few days due to rough weather conditions. In other words when the IN ships came back to port they were barf buckets with a bunch of sick sailors. It becomes even more interesting Pakistani subs (remember 3 AIP already operational) ships and aircrafts with Harpoons, excoets and C802 lurking around. No Indian Scorpenes are operational yet and the old KILO and German subs have very low operational availability. No doubt P8s are a real threat and a game changer but will be addressed in due time say for example a few Cruise Missiles hitting the base early in the hostilities.

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## Penguin

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Similarly, only a MORON will compare a recently inducted ship with an 25 year old one.


Not sure what you are referring to....

F22P is recently commissioned, new design but clearly based on Type 053H3 Jiangwei1
PNS Zulfiquar 251 laid down 12 October 2006 launched 5 April 2008 commissioned 19 September 2009 
Sword / F-22P Class Frigates - Naval Technology

11356 is recently commissioned, new design but clearly based on Krivak III (crossbred with P17 features).
INS Talwar (F40) Launched May 2000 Commissioned 18 June 2003
Talwar Class Frigate - Naval Technology



Shadow_Hunter said:


> And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships.
> 
> Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??
> 
> F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.
> 
> Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.
> 
> Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now



Handheld or manually trained/elevated Manpads do not count in this equation as they are comparatively useless (not centrally directed). And can be taken on board by either party with equal ease (QW-series ....?)

What did I twist? I gave my assessment. You're free to give yours.... 

Meanwhile, I think you failed to notice that batch 2 11356s don't carry Kashtan anymore, just AK630. Which implies IN isn't all that happy with that system and sees AK630 (without Barak, which is normally paired to AK630 in other new IN ships) as good enough.












In terms of gunnery, 2x2 30mm gatlings Batch 1 11356 or 2x1 30mm gatling in batch 2 versus 2 single 30mm gatlings.... is very similar. Higher rof also means greater ammo expenditure, so there are some tradeoffs there. Note that AK 630s where reverted to and not e.g. Palma/Palash twin gatling





15km or 50km doesn't make a whole lot of difference when the opponent comes in with jets carrying 150-200km AShM (aircraft remain outside of missile range in both cases)

As for antishipmissile defence, FM90 is longer range than earlier HQ7 and:


> The main air defence weapon is an 8-cell HongQi-7 (French Thales Crotale copy) short-range SAM system, designed to engage aircraft in all-weather, day/night conditions at a maximum range of 8~12km with line-of-sight guidance. The missile also has limited capability to intercept sea-skimming anti-ship missiles at a much closer range (4~6km).


Type 053H3 (Jiangwei-II Class) Missile Frigate - SinoDefence.com

By comparison, Shtil 1: 


> The launchers can fire the 9M38 (NATO codename: SA-N-7 Gadfly) semi-active, radar-homing, medium-range air defence missile. The missile uses the ship&#8217;s Top Plate 3D circular scan radar for target tracking, and the Front Dome (three radar for each launcher, each radar with two guidance channels) indication radar for missile guidance. Up to three missiles can be aimed simultaneously. The range is up to 25km against aircraft and 15km against anti-ship cruise missile.



So really it is not 15km versus 50km but 6km versus 15km as far as anti-missile mode is concerned.

Still, 11356 is said to carry 9m317 and this has better missile defence capability.



> The launchers can fire the 9M317 (other sources suggested 9M38M2) Shtil / SA-N-12 Grizzly semi-active radar-homing, medium-range air defence missile, with 48 missiles carried onboard. The missile&#8217;s maximum range is 38km against aircraft and 20km against anti-ship cruise missile.


Type 052B (Luyang-I Class) Missile Destroyer - SinoDefence.com

... although I think that range depend on where (how high up) your radars are.

More missile info here: Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You yourself started out discussing the air defence capability (not the other capabilities) 
All can make up their own mind about other weapons:

Club/Brahmos versus C802: Brahmos is fast but effectivenees also depends on seekers/guidance etc, also which Club version is carried: with supersonic end stage and short range or longer range but slower air breather?

ASW: heavyweight torps + RBU + heli versus (russian sonar) light weight torps + rbu + heli (NB F22P is said to have western sonar installed.)

IMHO not a WORLD of difference.

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## Penguin

Shadow_Hunter said:


> That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.
> 
> Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K



About as good as China's Type 022 wave piercing catamaran's air defences will fare against that same jet.








Shadow_Hunter said:


> Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.
> 
> Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?



Repeat: it is not a FAC proper but a patrol boat with missiles;
It will patrol in peace time (100%-x% of service life) while having a usefull capability for wartime (x% of service life). With x being kept as small a possible. How hard is it?

30kt on water is not slow. Veer class (Russian project 1241 Nato: Tarantul) of about the same size does 35 - 40 knots but has all GTu propulsion (i.e. lesser endurance: 1650 at 14 knots , operational autonomy for 10 days, with crew = 40-50 as compared to 12-14 sailors for Azmat)

Fast is Japan's Hayabusa class or Italy's Sparviero (both 46 kt). The former is 240 tons and the latter 60 tons.

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## INDIAISM

Penguin said:


> Only a MORON would compare a fast patrol boat (600 ton) to a frigate (4000 ton).... go away!
> 
> As for F22P versus pr. 11356 ...
> 
> 3000t versus 4000t
> 76mm versus 100mm
> 8 C802 versus 8 brahmos
> 2 30mm ciws versus 2 ak630
> 15km Fm90 verus 35-50 km Shtil
> 
> mmmm , not that much of a difference when attacked by jets or subs with Harpoon class missiles....


Althrough i am not an expert in this department but i have Just 1 question for you sir what do you think that Indian Navies Procurment Department have bunch of incompetent people who are spending 530 Million Dollars on the ship which don't have much advantage on 250 million dollars F 22P....it almost like saying their is no difference between F22P and Type 054A or 054A+...


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## Abingdonboy

Penguin said:


> Some points to consider:
> - All F22P will have a SAM plus 2 gun CIWS, whereas with the ex-RN Type 21s just 3 have SAM but no CIWS (just regular 30mm AAA) and 3 have CIWS but no SAM.
> - Inadequate compared to what? P25 Khukri and P25A Kora classes have only AK630/Manpads, yet serve in IN fleet formations. P16/16A have BARAK + AK230/AK630, which is fine for close in but not exactly good air defence either if/when operating alone, outside a fleet formation (which is what PN ships do routinely). While Batch 1 project 11356 combined Shtil with Kashtan CIWS, the batch 2 ships do no have Kashtan, just AK630: the remarks for P16/16A apply here too.
> - The single carries operational with IN carries 16 Barak, a pair of AK230 and 2 Bofors 40. That too hardly qualifies as adequate air defence if ever she got caught with her SHARs away on mission.
> - PN will - as much as possible - employ surface assets under cover of land based aviation.




No mention made of BARAK 8 which will be standard fit for all new large (1500+ tonnes) IN ships from next year and will be retrofitted onto existing platforms from next year too.


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## Cool_Soldier

What about Type-54A arrival on lease....?


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## Penguin

INDIAISM said:


> Althrough i am not an expert in this department but i have Just 1 question for you sir what do you think that Indian Navies Procurment Department have bunch of incompetent people who are spending 530 Million Dollars on the ship which don't have much advantage on 250 million dollars F 22P....it almost like saying their is no difference between F22P and Type 054A or 054A+...


 
- We're comparing ships , not procurement departments (about which I've said or suggested nothing). 
- Money is not the same as capability 
- There ARE differences between the ships discussed. However, we were discussing air self defence capability.

Whatever you think about P17, if attacked at stand-off distance by jets with AShM or by subs with encapsulated AShM, the longer range of its SAM does not do it much good other than providing more opportunities to fire at the inbound missile (since neither SAM can touch the AShM launch platform). Antiship missile defence range is LESS than air defence missile range (smaller target, extremely low level approach etc). Meanwhile, a missile like Harpoon has a speed of 537 miles per hour (864 km/h: 240 m/s). So the difference between e.g. a 6km and 15km anti antiship missile range is 9000m or 37,5 seconds. At Standard Sea Level conditions (corresponding to a temperature of 15 degrees Celsius), the speed of sound is 340.3 m/s (1225 km/h, or 761.2 mph, or 661.5 knots, or 1116 ft/s. And Shtil flies Mach 3 = 1020.9m/s i.e. it takes about 14.5 seconds to fly out to 15000, so that 37.5s is with about 3 extra shots.

But it is clearly NOT the case that P17 can hold its own alone and F22P cannot.

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## Penguin

Abingdonboy said:


> No mention made of BARAK 8 which will be standard fit for all new large (1500+ tonnes) IN ships from next year and will be retrofitted onto existing platforms from next year too.


I think you are confusing Barak and Barak 8. Barak for selected over Trishul, which was intended to replace OSA-AK. This is a self defence missile like Sea Wolf. Barak 8 is much longer ranged and slated for use on P15A (7000 tons) and follow-on P15B. Not even necessarily P17A... P28 (2500tn) will have Barak, the Sea Wolf equivalent.

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## Mr.Hunt

Cool_Soldier said:


> What about Type-54A arrival on lease....?


 

The youngest of tariq class frigates is 32 years old & oldest is 35 years. Does PN have any REPLACEMENT plans for 6 TARIQ class frigates ?


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## IceCold

Mr.Hunt said:


> The youngest of tariq class frigates is 32 years old & oldest is 35 years. Does PN have any REPLACEMENT plans for 6 TARIQ class frigates ?



With the current economy no i don't think PN can look for any replacements for its existing fleet.


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## itaskol

IceCold said:


> With the current economy no i don't think PN can look for any replacements for its existing fleet.


Pakistan should build at least one SSBN.
we tried to build nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarinein the 1970s, no matter we were super poor at that time.
in my opinion&#65292; missile boat like azmat should not be a priority project. and Azmat is not really cheap.
SSBN should be Top priority for pakistani Navy. one SSBN is powerful than 100 Missile boats.


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## Mr.Hunt

itaskol said:


> Pakistan should build at least one SSBN.
> we tried to build nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarinein the 1970s, no matter we were super poor at that time.
> in my opinion&#65292; missile boat like azmat should not be a priority project. and Azmat is not really cheap.
> SSBN should be Top priority for pakistani Navy. one SSBN is powerful than 100 Missile boats.


 
When PN cannot afford the replacement of 32 - 35 year old frigates, you can even talk of a new acquisition. The Cost of SSBN is around 1 Billion $ + High operational cost. Plus add 2-3 Billion $ as R&D cost .....


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## Penguin

IceCold said:


> With the current economy no i don't think PN can look for any replacements for its existing fleet.





> The Type 22 Broadsword class was a class of frigate built for the British Royal Navy. Fourteen of the class were built in total, with production divided into three batches. Seven ships of the earlier batches have been sold to Brazil, Romania and Chile where they are still in active service. Of the decommissioned vessels, four are awaiting disposal, two have been sunk as targets, and the rest were sold for scrap.
> 
> Batch 3
> The last four ships of the class (the Batch III ships Cornwall, Cumberland, Campbeltown and Chatham) were of a greatly improved design. Reflecting lessons learned in the Falklands, the weapons fit was changed, becoming more optimised to a general warfare role. The ships were fitted with the 4.5" (114m) gun, primarily for NGS (Naval Gunfire Support for land forces). Exocet was replaced by the superior Harpoon with eight GWS 60 missile launchers fitted laterally abaft the bridge, and each ship would carry a Goalkeeper CIWS (Close-In Weapon System).
> 
> Batch 3
> F99 Cornwall 23 April 1988 Decommissioned 30 June 2011 Awaiting disposal
> F85 Cumberland 10 June 1989 Decommissioned 23 June 2011 Awaiting disposal
> F86 Campbeltown 27 May 1989 Decommissioned April 2011 Awaiting disposal
> F87 Chatham 4 May 1990 Decommissioned 9 February 2011 Awaiting disposal


Type 22 frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Two Batch 2 Type 22s, HMS London and HMS Coventry, were sailed to Constanta, Romania's Black Sea naval base, last year, after officials in the Ministry of Defence had done a deal with BAe. Britain's biggest arms company was paid £116m by Romania to refurbish them.


We paid three times too much for UK frigates, Romania says | UK news | The Guardian


> The batch 2 Type 22 frigate HMS Sheffield was sold to Chile in 2003 for £27million. The sale price of a ship is set according to its age, how much refurbishment it needs, the value of the materials it is made of and equipment on board.


Read more: Labour sinks Navy: Warships sold off to foreign powers in deals worth £580m | Mail Online



> Pakistan had been negotiating with China for the supply of 4 frigates since the late 1990s. The contract was signed on 4 April 2006 with the conclusion of negotiations for financing and technology transfer. The first ship was delivered in 30 July 2009, second 23 January 2010 and third one at 15 December 2010. The first three were being built at the Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai, China, while the last is under construction in Pakistan by Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) to be completed in 2013. The $750 million contract also includes 4-6 Harbin Z-9EC anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters as well as ammunition for the frigates.


F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In September 2008 the US Congress approved the transfer of the frigate to Pakistan with a delivery date of August 2010. Citing the Foreign Assistance Act and the Arms Export Control Act, Pakistan is considered a "major non-NATO ally", able to receive older unneeded US military equipment. Additionally, the 32-year old frigate will be given a US$65 million refurbishment including anti-submarine capability paid for with foreign military aid provided by the U.S. to friendly countries.
> 
> PNS Alamgir will receive a mostly mechanical overhaul, which has to be conducted in the US as part of the deal. All four diesels were removed and overhauled, along with air conditioning units and refrigeration. Fuel oil tanks and voids were cleaned, inspected, repaired and painted. All shafting was removed and renovated. The controllable pitch propeller system was overhauled. Sea valves were removed and either repaired or replaced, and almost every pump was opened and inspected and overhauled as needed. Ventilators and fans went through a similar process of inspection and overhaul. Breakers, NR3 switchboard, windlass, and boat davit all got inspections and overhauls. Completely new equipment includes a new navigation suite and bridge, the composite dome over the fully overhauled AN/SQS-56 sonar, and a VIP cabin.


USS McInerney (FFG-8) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Type 22-2 2003 acquisition costs £27-58m per ship (4 ships = £108-232 million) 

_NB. the Type 22 batch 2 transfers to Rumania and Chile were cold transfers (deactivated ships reactivated), and the ships for Rumania had various existing weapons and sensor systems removed (including Sea Wolf) and new ones installed (including 76mm Oto Melara Compact naval gun). This is included in quoted price. The Chileans modified their Type 22-2 at a domestic yard, removing Sea Wolf and refitting Barak and Harpoon. This is not included in quoted price._

Type 22-3 Actual 2010-2010 running cost £16-32 million per ship (4 ships = £64-128 million annually).

For $ multiply by 1.56 ($42-$90m per ship, $25-50m annually)
For  multiply by 1.29 (35-75m per ship, 21-42m annually)

For comparison, the price of a single new F22P, with heli, ammo, tot was $175m each, and a hot transferrerd refurbished FFG7 Perry class (with support and training) was $65m.

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## Penguin

Nice collection of Azmat pics here: PNS Azmat pix

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## TaimiKhan

Penguin said:


> Nice collection of Azmat pics here: PNS Azmat pix



Won't those engine exhausts become a problem in rough waters ?? Water can go inside of these exhausts and cause problem for the engines ?? 

Isn't it a potential problem ??


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> Won't those engine exhausts become a problem in rough waters ?? Water can go inside of these exhausts and cause problem for the engines ??
> 
> Isn't it a potential problem ??


 
It surely will be. Perhaps they are using some one way valves or engine Exhaust Risers!
they must surely be as this is a common problem in all ship having in-board engines and low exhausts instead of he chimney style exhausts that increase RCS and heat signature, and to such common problems there are common solutions available.

*All marine inboard engines have exhaust risers. The exhaust riser has two functions: (1) to keep water from backing up into the engine through the exhaust piping and, (2) it serves as the device that introduces cooling water into the exhaust exit piping system.*
Exhaust Risers - Marine Engines : Boats and Yachts Maintenance, Repairs and Troubleshooting :

regards!

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## monitor

Here is a another close up of that inlet 




Its making the ship dirty

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## Bossman

Mr.Hunt said:


> When PN cannot afford the replacement of 32 - 35 year old frigates, you can even talk of a new acquisition. The Cost of SSBN is around 1 Billion $ + High operational cost. Plus add 2-3 Billion $ as R&D cost .....



In 1947 your grand daddy and then in the 70s your daddy said something similar, but we are still here, we are nuclear power and we are a bigger pain in the **** not only you but also for the only super power in the world and in past we we did take on another super and survived but the super power did not. So stop thinking like a baniya and more like soldier. There are ways to fight, survive and even win wars without dollars and cents.

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## Myth_buster_1

Bossman said:


> In 1947 your grand daddy and then in the 70s your daddy said something similar, but we are still here, we are nuclear power and we are a bigger pain in the **** not only you but also for the only super power in the world and in past we we did take on another super and survived but the super power did not. So stop thinking like a baniya and more like soldier. There are ways to fight, survive and even win wars without dollars and cents.



Lets get realistic shall we. Pakistan's nuclear ambition was its TOP military priority where as SSBN is not and hell even the Navy is not top priority for Pak so keeping state of Pak economy we can not even dream of SSBN for next 10 15 years.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Lets get realistic shall we. Pakistan's nuclear ambition was its TOP military priority where as SSBN is not and hell even the Navy is not top priority for Pak so keeping state of Pak economy we can not even dream of SSBN for next 10 15 years.


 
We are working on our strategic naval weapons..

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## Bossman

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Lets get realistic shall we. Pakistan's nuclear ambition was its TOP military priority where as SSBN is not and hell even the Navy is not top priority for Pak so keeping state of Pak economy we can not even dream of SSBN for next 10 15 years.


 
Second strike is a priority and it will come in phases first nuclear tipped SLCM from conventional submarine followed by SSBN. Reactor and vertical launch has been tested but nobody said that SSBN is around the corner but there may be surprises like a lot of other things in past from nukes to shaheen SRBMs, to Babur to Raad to Nasr. On the Naval side you will start seeing surprises when the 7000 tonne Ship Lift and Transfer System becomes operational at KSEW in couple of years, which BTW is nearly billion dollar project.


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## Myth_buster_1

Bossman said:


> Second strike is a priority and it will come in phases first nuclear tipped SLCM from conventional submarine followed by SSBN. Reactor and vertical launch has been tested but nobody said that SSBN is around the corner but there may be surprises like a lot of other things in past from nukes to shaheen SRBMs, to Babur to Raad to Nasr. On the Naval side you will start seeing surprises when the 7000 tonne Ship Lift and Transfer System becomes operational at KSEW in couple of years, which BTW is nearly billion dollar project.



I will be dam p1ssed to see SSBN in PN inventory because it is SUPER expensive and our awam are dying of hunger! CM BM etc are actually very economical to operate then SSBN so you can not use that analogy for your argument.


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## Alfa-Fighter

Bossman said:


> As one of the posters has already stated Azmat will not meet Mig29K because by then your aircraft carrier would have already met a Pakistan submarine.



Then it will ended in the same fate of the last sub which tried to sink indian AC in 71


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## Cool_Soldier

Enough discussion..stop this thread till second Boat is commissioned in PN.


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## Bossman

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Then it will ended in the same fate of the last sub which tried to sink indian AC in 71


 
Or like the one which sank INS Kukri with all hands aboard and damaged the INS Kirpan. BTW Ghazi did not sink due to enemy action and in 65 IN aircraft carrier did not even leave the port thanks to one WWII vintage submarine.


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## kurup

Bossman said:


> Or like the one which sank INS Kukri with all hands aboard and damaged the INS Kirpan. BTW Ghazi did not sink due to enemy action and in 65 IN aircraft carrier did not even leave the port thanks to one WWII vintage submarine.



In 1965 the carrier was in dry dock and was in the process of refitting ....

Why would they care about a submarine whose sailors have no idea of laying mines and explode themselves ???


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## Bossman

octopus said:


> In 1965 the carrier was in dry dock and was in the process of refitting ....
> 
> Why would they care about a submarine whose sailors have no idea of laying mines and explode themselves ???


 
That is spin to make you guys feel good and if one goes by that view 75% of IN fleet was going through refit in 65 as it never came out of Bombay. Or was Vikrant conveniently drydocked to avoid going to high seas? And talking of expertise after WWII there has been only one confirmed incident of a warship being sunk by a submarine, yes the warship was Indian and the submarine Pakistani.

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## kurup

Bossman said:


> That is spin to make you guys feel good and if one goes by that view 75% of IN fleet was going through refit in 65 as it never came out of Bombay. Or was Vikrant conveniently drydocked to avoid going to high seas?



Or the spin was given to make you guys feel good and you guys needed it desparately .....

Two naval myths, too, got generated at that time. That the whole of the Indian Navy was bottled up in harbour because of the presence of a single Pakistani submarine at sea. And, the Indian Naval expansion during the seventies and eighties was a reaction to the Pakistan Navy's bombardment of Dwarka. The real facts, however, were that almost seventy five percent of the Indian Navy was caught under maintenance in harbour after an intensive three months anti-submarine work up with a British submarine in the Bay of Bengal. And, for the second, that the post 1965, IN build up was part of the Indian Defence Plan, drawn out earlier, to prevent the recurrence of any military threat to India from seaward similar to one which had allowed Hindoosthan to be enslaved by the Europeans in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries

Contributing Editor : Vice Adm (Retd) IQBAL F QUADIR

Pakistan And Its Three Wars - 1



Bossman said:


> And talking of expertise after WWII there has been only one confirmed incident of a warship being sunk by a submarine, yes the warship was Indian and the submarine Pakistani.



And that is the only loss of an Indian ship ever ....

While you guys managed to destroy half your navy ....

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## MastanKhan

Myth_buster_1 said:


> I will be dam p1ssed to see SSBN in PN inventory because it is SUPER expensive and our awam are dying of hunger! CM BM etc are actually very economical to operate then SSBN so you can not use that analogy for your argument.



Sir,

It won't make any difference to our awam---they would still be pathetic, miserable and hungry even if we did not spend on the ssbn.

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## MastanKhan

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Then it will ended in the same fate of the last sub which tried to sink indian AC in 71



Hi,

In a war---you have to look at it this way---as a warrior of a smaller nation---where did I die---in your backyard or in my backyard---and if in your backyard---how far in---. 

It may endure the same fate but for once if it did not---and found its target---. You know---sh-it happens.

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## Nishan_101

Repeat: it is not a FAC proper but a patrol boat with missiles;
It will patrol in peace time (100%-x% of service life) while having a usefull capability for wartime (x% of service life). With x being kept as small a possible. How hard is it?

30kt on water is not slow. Veer class (Russian project 1241 Nato: Tarantul) of about the same size does 35 - 40 knots but has all GTu propulsion (i.e. lesser endurance: 1650 at 14 knots , operational autonomy for 10 days, with crew = 40-50 as compared to 12-14 sailors for Azmat)

Fast is Japan's Hayabusa class or Italy's Sparviero (both 46 kt). The former is 240 tons and the latter 60 tons.





[/QUOTE]






The should replace a single boat with two in the rear section of FAC and utilize the middle portion for an automated gun like this one:

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## Nishan_101

More over utilizing the upper portion of the ship where there are life raft for Chinese RAAM system on both the sides:

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## Alfa-Fighter

what is the range of this boat?


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## S.Y.A

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In a war---you have to look at it this way---as a warrior of a smaller nation---where did I die---in your backyard or in my backyard---and if in your backyard---how far in---.
> 
> It may endure the same fate but for once if it did not---and found its target---. You know---sh-it happens.



well the sub was indeed destroyed or sank in enemy's backyard but the rest of losses suffered by PN were in our own backyard


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## Viper0011.

octopus said:


> In 1965 the carrier was in dry dock and was in the process of refitting ....
> 
> Why would they care about a submarine whose sailors have no idea of laying mines and explode themselves ???



And how old are you?? This is more like talking back for the sake of talking vs. actually giving factual information


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## kurup

orangzaib said:


> And how old are you?? This is more like talking back for the sake of talking vs. actually giving factual information



My age doesnot change facts and factual information is given in post 350 .......


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## Viper0011.

octopus said:


> My age doesnot change facts and factual information is given in post 350 .......



Actually, my response was to the post that I responded to, not the # 350. If I had objections or counter argument to # 350, I would've responded to that post. The reason I asked you your age was because when people just go out of synch, then the thread derails and then there's pages worth of useless crap. Objective discussion is great as no one wastes time and everyone learns from each other


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## MastanKhan

S.Y.A said:


> well the sub was indeed destroyed or sank in enemy's backyard but the rest of losses suffered by PN were in our own backyard




Hi,

For that you have to confront the treachery by Pakistan Air Force . Stabbed by the enemy from the front---and most fascinatingly strangulated by the PAF from behind

Obviuosly, in a war one dies in his backyard as well when facing an enemy three times your size.


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## kurup

orangzaib said:


> Actually, my response was to the post that I responded to, not the # 350. If I had objections or counter argument to # 350, I would've responded to that post. The reason I asked you your age was because when people just go out of synch, then the thread derails and then there's pages worth of useless crap. Objective discussion is great as no one wastes time and everyone learns from each other



I have no intention to derail the thread ...

I was giving answers to post # 347 ....

I have no idea what is factually wrong in the statement you were quotung .....


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## MastanKhan

octopus said:


> My age doesnot change facts and factual information is given in post 350 .......



Hi,

Actually age and profession is the most important part of what you say----since I joined this board---I have suggested strongly to the admins and webmaster that every member must have his age and profession stated in introduction.

The reason being that a lots of times---there are idiot posts on the board---we just want to know what is the background and source of that idiocy---. Basically---what is the experience behind the statement---that's it.

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## Cool_Soldier

still discussing missile boat...


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## Arsalan

*Pakistan wants peace in the region: Naval Chief*
*Second Fast Attack (Missile) Craft PNS Dehshat Inducted*
KARACHI: The Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Asif Sandila, has said that Pakistan wants peace in the region and does not possess aggressive designs against any country.

*He was speaking as chief guest at the launching of the second Fast Attack Craft (Missile) PNS Dehshat.*

*The ceremony was held on Thursday at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).*

Naval Chief asserted that Pakistans geographical position and current dictates of geo strategic environment necessitate building of a strong navy to defend its maritime interests.

Our sea trade routes and vast EEZ need to be guarded, he said adding that the international energy lines as well pass very close to our coast which need to be protected not only in the interest of our country but for the entire international community as well.

Admiral Asif Sandila stated that the Pakistan Navy will continue its efforts for maintaining maritime peace and stability in the region.

*He was confident that the timely delivery of the second craft in Pakistan will be accomplished successfully with full cooperation of our Chinese friends.*

The Naval Chief said that he was satisfied to know about the success of the Karachi Shipyard in achieving major targets of its business plans both in shipbuilding as well as in the sugar industry.

He stated that this is yet another major step forward in achieving self reliance and augmenting export potential in the field of defense production in the maritime sector.

       

Pakistan wants peace in the region: Naval Chief | DAWN.COM

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## Arsalan

*Fast-attack craft missile inducted into Pakistan Navy *
_August 16, 2012_
The second fast-attack craft missile has been inducted into Pakistan Navy. Pakistan Navy have completed the manufacturing of second Fast Attack (Missile) Craft PNS Dehshat at Karachi Shipyard, the spokesman of Pakistan Navy announced this at an impressive ceremony held on Thursday with Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila, the chief guest on the occasion.
The newly built weapon has been manufactured in collaboration with China, the strategic partner of Pakistan Navy which is another example of unique Pak-China relations which does not draw any parallel in the world.
Equipped with the latest warfare system&#8218; the fast-attack craft can be used for anti-surface warfare&#8218; reconnaissance and rescue operations.

Earlier, Pakistan Navy commissioned fast attack craft PNS Azmat in Pakistan navy fleet which was built at China State Shipbuilding Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard and handed over to Pakistan Navy on April 23, 2012. 

The Naval Chief Asif Sandila has said the induction of the fast attack craft missile will further strengthen the defense capability of Pakistan Navy.

Radio Pakistan-
Pakistan Navy Launches PNS Dehshat Fast Attack Craft (Missile) -

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## Lazarus1177

The Name fits it perfectly!


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## masoomchichora

welldone


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## Irfan Baloch

any more bigger / better pictures?


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## Hyperion

Awesome name. *DEHSHAT*. Who said we couldn't name our weapon systems other than to name it after foreign conquerers!


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## KRAIT

Hyperion said:


> Awesome name. *DEHSHAT*. Who said we couldn't name our weapon systems other than to name it after foreign conquerers!


May be you ran out of names....How about English officers....

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## imrankhan7250

Dehshat Delivered, Aslat is nearing completion, Agosta is also nearing refitting mesma, It seems to me that KSEW is running out of work. What next for KSEW


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## holysaturn

nice thinking by pakistan.............. but has to improve the FAC's air defence system,it can to add the chinese RAM missile but its warhead is too small to disrupt missiles like brahmos, may be vl-mica or evolved sea sparrow can do the job.....


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## soul hacker

DAHSHAT wow


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## Hyperion

KRAIT said:


> May be you ran out of names....How about English officers....


I can suggest few other names for future platforms.

PNS Ghoonsa (Punch)
PNS Aakhrat (Dooms day)
PNS Chapat (Slap)
PNS Teri Aankh (Wicked look)
PNS Teekhi (Sharp)

LOL.... Well, I guess we will never run out of domestic names? What say you?

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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> I can suggest few other names for future platforms.
> 
> PNS Ghoonsa (Punch)
> PNS Aakhrat (Dooms day)
> PNS Chapat (Slap)
> PNS Teri Aankh (Wicked look)
> PNS Teekhi (Sharp)
> 
> LOL.... Well, I guess we will never run out of domestic names? What say you?




I will take them anyday than hard to pronounce Arabic names that make no sense with the object and compel people to go in prayer positions

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## Hyperion

Irfan Baloch said:


> I will take them anyday than hard to pronounce Arabic names that make no sense with the object and compel people to go in prayer positions



Same here mate!

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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> Same here mate!



before any religious blowhard puts a fatwa on me I am compelled to clarify
I mean no disrespect to Arabic names
on the contrary I would rather prefer a correctly pronounced local name rather than wrongly pronounced or inappropriate Arabic name

e.g. I know a woman was called "Haleebah" Haleeb" means milk in Arabic and Haleebah stands for anyone who gives a lot of milk, normally used for animals that are kept for such purpose. 
another example is the word Qira' at (to recite) but people with local accent pronounce it as Qirrut.... which has a very unpleasant meaning in Arabic. the list is huge. and dont get me started on "Sadam Cloth House" or Osama general store  lol

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## W.11

PNS mehran for remembering those martyrs of PNS mehran??


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## Haseebullah

*Dahshat* hai bhai ki!



[:::~Spartacus~:::];3316758 said:


> PNS mehran for remembering those martyrs of PNS mehran??


that actually is a good suggestion!


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## TOPGUN

Awsome news good job PN can't wait to see pic's !


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## monitor



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## Hyperion

Irfan Baloch said:


> before any religious blowhard puts a fatwa on me I am compelled to clarify
> I mean no disrespect to Arabic names
> on the contrary I would rather prefer a correctly pronounced local name rather than wrongly pronounced or inappropriate Arabic name
> 
> e.g. I know a woman was called "Haleebah" Haleeb" means milk in Arabic and Haleebah stands for anyone who gives a lot of milk, normally used for animals that are kept for such purpose.
> another example is the word Qira' at (to recite) but people with local accent pronounce it as Qirrut.... which has a very unpleasant meaning in Arabic. the list is huge. and dont get me started on "Sadam Cloth House" or Osama general store  lol



LOL. You're equally petrified as myself from these Habee-B's & Fatwas-to-go

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## SamranAli

Hyperion said:


> I can suggest few other names for future platforms.
> 
> PNS Ghoonsa (Punch)
> PNS Aakhrat (Dooms day)
> PNS Chapat (Slap)
> PNS Teri Aankh (Wicked look)
> PNS Teekhi (Sharp)
> 
> LOL.... Well, I guess we will never run out of domestic names? What say you?


 
What about Ghandasa?

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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> May be you ran out of names....How about English officers....



Black Pearl ?
Queen Anne's Revenge ?
HMS Providence ?

Take your pick

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## [--Leo--]

wow ...congrass after so long some good new appear


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> LOL. You're equally petrified as myself from these Habee-B's & Fatwas-to-go



I'd extend it to names of people as well ! Some of my cousins have the strangest Arabic names that my tongue feels funny trying to pronounce; for example if I call my cousin 'Huzaifah' his mom (my Khala) would reprimand me by saying 'No..pronounce as Hu-ddd-ai-fah' ! My tongue was so mad after the first couple of times that now I just call him 'Made in KSA', much to ere of my Khala !

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## MJaa



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## SHAMK9

PNS Dehshat, the person who came up with the name is an ultimate troll to the Pakistan's enemies

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We need Fast attack boat named after Sultan Rahi , only justice to legend

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## Nishan_101

monitor said:


>


 
KE&SW should go for addition 5 of these to complement others and replace the old ones. They should try to modify it with sonars and torpedoes as well so it will have multi mission capability.


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## mosu

welldone and nice name


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## fatman17

Friday, August 17, 2012 

*PNS Dehshat : Pakistan Navy launches second fast attack craft (missile)*

* Naval chief says construction of missile craft is another example of unparallel Sino-Pak relations

KARACHI: Launching ceremony of second fast attack craft (missile) PNS Dehshat was held on Thursday at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW). Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Asif Sandila was the chief guest on the occasion. 

According to an official handout, PNS Dehshat is the second ship of its kind. The ship was constructed at KSEW in collaboration with China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOIC) and Xingang Shipyard on the basis of transfer of technology. 

The first fast attack craft (missile) of the deal was also designed and constructed by the CSOIC. The first ship PNS Azmat was inducted in PN fleet in June 2012.

Speaking on the occasion, Admiral Sandila commended the timely completion of the project and termed it the manifestation of the indigenisation policy of the government, especially attaining self-reliance in defence capabilities. He applauded Karachi and Xingagn shipyards, CSOIC and Pakistan Naval authorities associated with the project for their relentless efforts and devotion in this connection. 

Admiral Sandila lauded the defence co-operation between China and Pakistan and said that construction of missile craft at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology arrangements is another example of unparallel Sino-Pak relations. 

The admiral asserted that Pakistan&#8217;s geographical position and current dictates of geo strategic environment necessitate building of a strong navy to defend its maritime interests. Addition of these crafts to PN Fleet will further strengthen its offensive capability, he added. He reiterated that Pakistan Navy is cognizant of its role and no stone will be left unturned in maintaining maritime peace and stability in the region. He also lauded the achievements of KSEW in field of shipbuilding. 

Admiral Sandila added that construction of missile craft is yet another step forward in achieving self-reliance and augmenting export potential in the field of defence production in maritime sector, which became possible due to sound planning of the management and relentless efforts of its workers.

Earlier in his welcome address, Managing Director KSEW Rear Admiral Hassan Nasir Shah highlighted salient features of fast attack craft (missile) project and apprised the audience of future construction projects of Karachi Shipyard. A large number of PN officers and personnel of CSOIC attended the ceremony. staff report

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## Eda Khan

Good Job and What a choice of Name: "Dehshat"

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## third eye

Why is the Chinese Flag also displayed on the vessel at launch stage ?


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## TOPGUN

third eye said:


> Why is the Chinese Flag also displayed on the vessel at launch stage ?



To show friendship simply why else...

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## saiyan0321

awsome induction awsome name need more of these and ofcourse thanks to our Chinese friends 

long lve pak china friendship


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## cirr

Congratulations to our Pakistani brothers&#65281;

Hope you also acquire several squadrons of J-21s when they become available&#12290;

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## PäkPõwér

Great name. I wish we had done this with our missiles too. 

on another note...this warrants a

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## turbo charged

sir does it contains air-defence features such as short range surface to air missiles?


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## Penguin

Mods please merge with the Azmat thread (we don't have seperate threads for each F22P either).
Login

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## itaskol

great!
but I tought the second azmat class were planed to be made in karachi locally.
and where will all the rest of azmat class been build?


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## araz

Mods please merge the threads as penguin has requested.

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## skyknight

What does *Dehsha*t mean?
Will someone help me?


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## alimobin memon

skyknight said:


> What does *Dehsha*t mean?
> Will someone help me?



Deshat means Terror

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## Archie

No one is going to get scared of a 600 Ton FAC

You need to induct 6000 Ton Frigates and Destroyers to actually leave a mark

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## Arsalan

Yes, its time we merge this thread with main PNS Azmat Thread as Penguin have mentioned.
The news have been shared and now the discussion can be continued in main thread!
Kindly merge with:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...mat-fast-attack-craft-missile-discussion.html

regards!


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## Doctor Death

A very small craft.Can't be called a guided missile frigate.


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## A.Rafay

How about PNS Aag (Fire) Or PNS Dozakh (Hell)


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## Liquidmetal

Nishan_101 said:


> KE&SW should go for addition 5 of these to complement others and replace the old ones. They should try to modify it with sonars and torpedoes as well so it will have multi mission capability.



Sorry for being an ignoranamus, but is this Karachi or China? If Karachi, wow the shipyard looks clean and modern which is not my perception of Pakistani yards. If not then obviously the Chinese have decent manufacturing facilities.


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## SEAL

Doctor Death said:


> A very small craft.Can't be called a guided missile frigate.



Yup its not frigate but Guided Missile FAC. 

It have 4x4 C-802 Anti-ship cruise missiles with the range of 180KM.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Da da da ...dashat .. Fast Attack Missile Boat ... 

The name alone makes it powerful like a Destroyer


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## Viper0011.

Archie said:


> No one is going to get scared of a 600 Ton FAC
> 
> You need to induct 6000 Ton Frigates and Destroyers to actually leave a mark


 

This is VERY untrue (unless you are a blue water navy like the USN). Iran has small boats and hundreds of them compared to allied forces. But, the NATO is concerned over all of them as they'll be difficult to take out. The location is such that it makes it a VERY high risk.

Big boats are good as long as you have a ton of aircover, additional support ships with it like a USN's carrier battle group. For everyone else, the more dispersed you are, the better it is. What's harder to hit? An elephent that can be seen from miles away or a cheetah that can hide and attack lethaly when it needs to? 

I think if PN can deploy 20 or so of these boats, all packed with capable ASM's and WITH good air coverage, long range SAM coverage (100 miles plus) and about 6 quality subs, it'll cause tremendous amount of pain in any conflict.

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## turbo charged

we should buy one dozen midget submarines from iran.....custom fit each midget submarine with 2 nuclear armed babur cruise missiles...plus we can add computers and navigation systems of choice.......we can multiply our force very easily with small budget provided we think out of the box.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Liquidmetal said:


> Sorry for being an ignoranamus, but is this Karachi or China? If Karachi, wow the shipyard looks clean and modern which is not my perception of Pakistani yards. If not then obviously the Chinese have decent manufacturing facilities.



The Karachi shipyard, it is very modernized nowadays, and it has the potential to build the 4500 tons frigate like the Type 054A and the 2000 tons corvette like the Type 056 in the near future.

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## Thorough Pro

You can take out an elephant or two but you cant do anything against a swarm of bees, and they both can kill you.




orangzaib said:


> This is VERY untrue (unless you are a blue water navy like the USN). Iran has small boats and hundreds of them compared to allied forces. But, the NATO is concerned over all of them as they'll be difficult to take out. The location is such that it makes it a VERY high risk.
> 
> Big boats are good as long as you have a ton of aircover, additional support ships with it like a USN's carrier battle group. For everyone else, the more dispersed you are, the better it is. What's harder to hit? An elephent that can be seen from miles away or a cheetah that can hide and attack lethaly when it needs to?
> 
> I think if PN can deploy 20 or so of these boats, all packed with capable ASM's and WITH good air coverage, long range SAM coverage (100 miles plus) and about 6 quality subs, it'll cause tremendous amount of pain in any conflict.


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## Nishan_101

I am sure after the new elections and a newer GoP the PN would have a chance to produce another five of these at home.


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## Hyperion

One additional name for our future destroyer:

*PNS Haibat* (One, the enemy is scared of shitless!) 

One additional name for our future recon ship:

*PNS Gheebat* (The back-biter) 

Please spare me the sermon on "Gheebat, burri bala hai"

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> One additional name for our future destroyer:
> 
> *PNS Haibat* (One, the enemy is scared of shitless!)
> 
> One additional name for our future recon ship:
> 
> *PNS Gheebat* (The back-biter)
> 
> Please spare me the sermon on "Gheebat, burri bala hai"



Say..what ? I was thinking of *PNS Ghandasa* and *PNS Naswar* !  

On a serious note, why don't we name our vessels on some of the personalities from Pakistan's contemporary history ? 

How about *PNS Sardar Aurangzeb Khan * - who was so instrumental in getting the Quaid's message across to the common people of NWFP ! Or *PNS Fatima Begum* - who as the Principal of the Islamia Girls College, Lahore was invaluable in getting women's participation in the Pakistan Movement up and running by hosting the first ever annual session of the women's wing of the All-India-Muslim League right there in her college.


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## Manticore

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Yes, its time we merge this thread with main PNS Azmat Thread as Penguin have mentioned.
> The news have been shared and now the discussion can be continued in main thread!
> Kindly merge with:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...mat-fast-attack-craft-missile-discussion.html
> 
> regards!



Done

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## Donatello

Armstrong said:


> Say..what ? I was thinking of *PNS Ghandasa* and *PNS Naswar* !
> 
> On a serious note, why don't we name our vessels on some of the personalities from Pakistan's contemporary history ?
> 
> How about *PNS Sardar Aurangzeb Khan * - who was so instrumental in getting the Quaid's message across to the common people of NWFP ! Or *PNS Fatima Begum* - who as the Principal of the Islamia Girls College, Lahore was invaluable in getting women's participation in the Pakistan Movement up and running by hosting the first ever annual session of the women's wing of the All-India-Muslim League right there in her college.



PNS Benazir Bhutto Shaheed?

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## Armstrong

Donatello said:


> PNS Benazir Bhutto Shaheed?



If you can guarantee a *PNS Zardari Shaheed*...I'd take it !

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## imrankhan7250

Nation is ready to finance it PNS ZS ASAP


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## Penguin

Archie said:


> No one is going to get scared of a 600 Ton FAC
> 
> You need to induct 6000 Ton Frigates and Destroyers to actually leave a mark


So, you dismiss the following as inconsequential (just a few or the _larger_ recent ships under 6k ton):

Russia: project 22350 / Admiral Gorshkov class frigate
Admiral Gorshkov Class Frigates - Naval Technology

Russia: project 11356M 'Krivak IV' Grigorovich frigates a.k.a. Talwar class
Talwar Class Frigate - Naval Technology

South Korea: DDH II / Chungmugong Yi Sunshin Class Destroyer
Chungmugong Yi Sunshin Class / DDH-II Class Destroyer - Naval Technology

South Korea: FFX / Incheon Class Frigate
Incheon Class Frigates / Future Frigate Experimental (FFX) - Naval Technology

Singapore: Formidable class frigate
Formidable Class Frigate - Naval Technology

Norway (Spain): Nansen class frigate
Nansen Class Anti-Submarine Warfare Frigates - Naval Technology

Japan: Takanami Class Destroyers
Takanami Class Destroyers - Naval Technology

South Africa (Germany): Valour class frigate a.k.a. Meko A200
MEKO A Class Combat Ship Family - Naval Technology

United States: 
LCS1 Freedom class
USS Freedom (LCS-1) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LCS2 Independence class
USS Independence (LCS-2) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China: Type 054A Jiangkai II class frigates
Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey: TF-100 / Ada class (enlarged/improved Heybeliada class)
Thales Sails the Seven Seas

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## Manticore

Huangfeng class of the Type 021 class missile boat-205 t
Houbei class missile boat- 220t
Skjold class patrol boat-274 t
Hamina class missile boat -	250 tons
Gepard class fast attack craft -391 tonnes
Roussen class fast attack craft- 580 tons
Azmat class Fast attack craft -560 tons
K&#305;l&#305;ç class fast attack craft-552 t
Nanuchka class corvette-560 
Tarantul class corvette-480 
Buyan class corvette-550 Tons


List of naval ship classes in service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Anotherangle

ANTIBODY said:


> Huangfeng class of the Type 021 class missile boat-205 t
> Houbei class missile boat- 220t
> Skjold class patrol boat-274 t
> Hamina class missile boat -	250 tons
> Gepard class fast attack craft -391 tonnes
> Roussen class fast attack craft- 580 tons
> Azmat class Fast attack craft -560 tons
> K&#305;l&#305;ç class fast attack craft-552 t
> Nanuchka class corvette-560
> Tarantul class corvette-480
> Buyan class corvette-550 Tons
> 
> 
> List of naval ship classes in service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


well sir, you seem to be one of the most informed persons; could you please tell something about PNS azmat design? Is it stealthy or..... I think a FAC should be stealthy like skjold or visby class


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## Manticore

Hi anotherangle, thankyou for your remarks --I am more into aircrafts & aviation however pengiun is probably the right person to put this question to

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## Penguin

Stealth refers to reduced signatures. There are a number of aspects to consider, including: a) radar reflectivity, b1) radiated underwater noise, b2) radiated overwater noise, c) thermal emissions (=heat), d) electronic emissions. To deal with these you find a) superstructure smoothing/angling + use of radar absorbing materials/paints, b1) sound and vibration proof equipment mounting e.g. for engines, b2) use of water jet, use of underwater exhaust venting, c) thermal shielding, exhaust cooling e.g. using water spray, and d) reliance on e.g. LPI (low probability of intercept) radars and on passive sensors.

Obviously, with Azmat, it is clear that there is in the design the use of superstructure smoothing/angling. There also appear to be passive sensors/channel to back up of substitute for active (i.e. radar) sensors as far as firecontrol is concerned. I don't see underwater exhaust venting or use of waterjets. All remainding things, we can't really tell from photo's. So, there you have it.

My impression is that with Skjold and Visby much effort has gone into increasing stealthiness in all respects, while with Azmat it is limited to some aspects.

E.g. Skjold: build of fiberglass/carbon compisite rather than steel, use of anechoic coatings of radar absorbent materials (RAM) in the load-bearing structures over large areas of the ship. Ship profile has a faceted appearance without right angle structures and few orientations of reflective panels. Doors and hatches are mounted flush with the surfaces, windows dito without visible coaming (edge of window aperture) and fitted with radar reflective screens.
E.g. Visby: hull built a sandwich design consisting of a PVC core with a carbon fibre and vinyl laminate. Good conductivity and surface flatness means a low radar signature, while good heat insulation lowers the infrared signature and increases survivability in case of fire. The composite sandwich used is also non-magnetic, which lowers the magnetic signature (against mines, torpedoes). Angular design reduces its radar signature / radar cross section. Gun barrel can be folded into the turret to reduce its radar cross section.

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## Anotherangle

Penguin said:


> Stealth refers to reduced signatures. There are a number of aspects to consider, including: a) radar reflectivity, b1) radiated underwater noise, b2) radiated overwater noise, c) thermal emissions (=heat), d) electronic emissions. To deal with these you find a) superstructure smoothing/angling + use of radar absorbing materials/paints, b1) sound and vibration proof equipment mounting e.g. for engines, b2) use of water jet, use of underwater exhaust venting, c) thermal shielding, exhaust cooling e.g. using water spray, and d) reliance on e.g. LPI (low probability of intercept) radars and on passive sensors.
> 
> Obviously, with Azmat, it is clear that there is in the design the use of superstructure smoothing/angling. There also appear to be passive sensors/channel to back up of substitute for active (i.e. radar) sensors as far as firecontrol is concerned. I don't see underwater exhaust venting or use of waterjets. All remainding things, we can't really tell from photo's. So, there you have it.
> 
> My impression is that with Skjold and Visby much effort has gone into increasing stealthiness in all respects, while with Azmat it is limited to some aspects.
> 
> E.g. Skjold: build of fiberglass/carbon compisite rather than steel, use of anechoic coatings of radar absorbent materials (RAM) in the load-bearing structures over large areas of the ship. Ship profile has a faceted appearance without right angle structures and few orientations of reflective panels. Doors and hatches are mounted flush with the surfaces, windows dito without visible coaming (edge of window aperture) and fitted with radar reflective screens.
> E.g. Visby: hull built a sandwich design consisting of a PVC core with a carbon fibre and vinyl laminate. Good conductivity and surface flatness means a low radar signature, while good heat insulation lowers the infrared signature and increases survivability in case of fire. The composite sandwich used is also non-magnetic, which lowers the magnetic signature (against mines, torpedoes). Angular design reduces its radar signature / radar cross section. Gun barrel can be folded into the turret to reduce its radar cross section.


Thanks; it means PNS Azmat is somewhat radar stealthy, but does not appear to be completely stealthy.

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## Penguin

Certainly more stealthy than the ships it is intended to replace (e.g. Shanghai, Hainan and Osa classes)

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## fatman17

Anotherangle said:


> Thanks; it means PNS Azmat is somewhat radar stealthy, but does not appear to be completely stealthy.



the front end 'hull area' is stealthy.

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## Nishan_101

I am hopeful that PN would be looking to add additional 5 of these to our PN fleet and all these 5 would be constructed at KE&SWs. INSHA ALLAH and Ameen.

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## jalip

I think its PNS dasht not dahsat can some body confirm with navy guys dahshat does not make any sense


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## S.Y.A

it looks like an air def system in last video at 1:25


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## Nishan_101

S.Y.A said:


> it looks like an air def system in last video at 1:25


 
So do you believe that PN/KE&SWs should look towards producing another 5 of these type??? As we need such FACs and about 15 of them at least should be in fleet till 2022. I can't understand why PN haven't gone for 7 of these like building 6 in Pakistan.


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## Penguin

Anotherangle said:


> Thanks; it means PNS Azmat is somewhat radar stealthy, but does not appear to be completely stealthy.


Well, since there are still some things we are unable to assess.... I'ld be cautious in passing judgement about stealthiness of this vessel, both in conservative and progressive p.o.v.

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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> it looks like an air def system in last video at 1:25


It is one of the pair of decoy/chaff/flare launchers launchers mounted in the rear, one deck below the AK630 gun. That means it is EW/ECM gear, functionally comparable to Russian PK-16.

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## A.Rafay

Donatello said:


> PNS Benazir Bhutto Shaheed?


How about* PNS Corrupption*

Its the same name either way!

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## Nishan_101

S.Y.A said:


> it looks like an air def system in last video at 1:25


 
I think they should have replaced the gun in the upper rear portion with Chinese RAM system:














And in the back replace the single boat with two of them in the sides of the FAC and place CIWS in beam few feet above the FAC surface:

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## S.Y.A

Nishan_101 said:


> I think they should have replaced the gun in the upper rear portion with Chinese RAM system:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And in the back replace the single boat with two of them in the sides of the FAC and place CIWS in beam few feet above the FAC surface:



paisa meray bhai paisa...jitna paisa do gy utna he maal milay ga na

and I just saw the Bangladesh LPC thread, it seems to be superior to Azmat in every way


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## Nishan_101

S.Y.A said:


> paisa meray bhai paisa...jitna paisa do gy utna he maal milay ga na
> 
> and I just saw the Bangladesh LPC thread, it seems to be superior to Azmat in every way


 
Yeah! Thats for sure I think PN should have taken a right decision in 2000 that start up a JV with Chinese on three Surface combatants that will have multi mission Capability like Anti Air, Anti Surface and Anti Sub. And Done JV on:
*3000-3300 Ton Frigate that will be similar to Type54A/LCS(US)
1500-1700 Ton Corvette
700 Ton FAC*

This will be helpful for the PN as well as will have multi mission capability as well.


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## Major Sam

S.Y.A said:


> paisa meray bhai paisa...jitna paisa do gy utna he maal milay ga na
> 
> and I just saw the Bangladesh LPC thread, it seems to be superior to Azmat in every way



can you explain this part . in which feature and bit comparison


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## S.Y.A

usama waqas said:


> can you explain this part . in which feature and bit comparison



it has got some air defence capabilities, as well as anti sub capabilities, things that Azmat sadly lacks

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## Nishan_101

S.Y.A said:


> it has got some air defence capabilities, as well as anti sub capabilities, things that Azmat sadly lacks


 
Yeah! You are 100% right. I think BDs should have done JV with Chinese over the development of this FAC as well as a new 2100-2500 Corvette as well. Can anyone tell me that BDs are looking into U-214s??? Or not???


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## S.Y.A

Nishan_101 said:


> Yeah! You are 100% right. I think BDs should have done JV with Chinese over the development of this FAC as well as a new 2100-2500 Corvette as well. Can anyone tell me that BDs are looking into U-214s??? Or not???



the thing is that BD navy knows what it wants, and PN sometimes seems confused over its priorities


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## Capt.Popeye

S.Y.A said:


> the thing is that BD navy knows what it wants, and PN sometimes seems confused over its priorities



Fact is, the BD Navy has good advisors, across its borders. Cant let our friends down, can we?


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## hussain0216

Isnt the whole point that pakistan will improve all these crafts up to the required including air defences in the coming years

Bangladesh wont be able to and is buying ready made

Pakistan is supposed to induct a number of crafts and then add what it requires

Its like the nasr missile, fast and accurate but with an intial range of 60km (i think) the point being however that pakistan will ensure the range is extended over the coming years


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## a1b2c145

S.Y.A said:


> paisa meray bhai paisa...jitna paisa do gy utna he maal milay ga na
> 
> and I just saw the Bangladesh LPC thread, it seems to be superior to Azmat in every way


You mean THIS ONE? This is not a boat with missiles, am i right? 








i ALSO find a boat for The Republic of Namibia built by China recently, yes, all these boat are different


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## a1b2c145

http://www.inamibia.co.na/news/loca...ship-the-ns-elephant-docks-in-walvis-bay.html

The vessel arrived at the Port of Walvis Bay yesterday from China with 65 crew members on board.

The "Elephant" is equipped with a 37 millimetre naval gun and two 14,5milimetre twin barrel machine guns. It will replace the 'Lt General Dimo Hamaambo', decommissioned yesterday.

The Deputy Minister of Defence Lempy Lucas, who officially welcomed the 'Elephant', said the vessel was acquired from the ministry's budget. 

Jane's Naval Construction and Retrofit Markets reports that the NS Elephant (S11) resembles an offshore patrol vessel built on a frigate hull. Chinese sources suggest that Elephant displaces 2500 tons and has a length of 100m, while photographs show that it resembles the 2580 ton, 110m Fisheries Law Enforcement Command patrol ship Yuzheng 310. The Elephant has a large helicopter deck, although there is apparently no hangar. A gun is mounted on the forecastle. Two large lifeboats are positioned amidships and there is a smaller boat on the starboard side and a crane on the port side. 

The propulsion system includes at least two V16 diesel engines - reportedly Caterpillar units - as well as a bow thruster. Photographs on the Chinese internet showing a compartment with many bunks suggest that this vessel will also be used as a troop or passenger transport. The ship was built at the Wuhan Shipyard on the Yangtze River and introduces a sea-going, helicopter-operating capability to the service. 

The vessel was reportedly formally handed over to the navy in late June 2012. 

A Namibian crew has been in China training for the delivery of the ship. Sources reported that she currently has a small number of Chinese on board, possibly civilian dockworkers and inspectors.

Janes further reports the Namibian Maritime Wing (NMW) has for some time been embarked on a major procurement programme &#8220;with the primary aim of gaining the ability to exercise control over Namibia's EEZ.&#8221; Two Namacurra-class harbour patrol craft were donated by South Africa in 2002. Then, in 2004, Brazil donated a corvette belonging to the Imperial Marinheiro-class (Lt Gen Dimo Hamaambo, C11) to be used as a coastal patrol ship, Janes adds. Following a 2003 agreement between the Brazilian and Namibian governments, the NMW took delivery of a 46.5m coastal patrol craft in January 2009. Based on Brazil's Grajaú-class large patrol craft, NS Brendan Simbwaye (P11) was acquired under a programme managed by Empresa Gerencial de Projectos Navais, which was also be responsible for weapon systems integration and in-service logistic support. The 217-tonne vessel was ordered by Namibia in June 2004, along with four 20.9 m aluminium fast patrol craft for coastal surveillance and protection. 

Deliveries of the first two fast patrol craft were expected in 2010 and the second pair in 2011, although no confirmation has yet emerged, Janes adds. &#8220;However, it is known that construction of the four new craft began once the patrol ship Brendan Simbwaye was completed in 2009.No modernisation plans have been announced for the older parts of the NMW. It is believed that the current patrol vessels, supplied from Norway, Denmark and South Africa will be decommissioned. This includes the 406 ton patrol boat NS Oryx (P01) and two 45 ton Marlin-class patrol craft Terrace Bay (HPB20) and Möwe Bay (HPB21). 

The wing&#8217;s main tasks have been described by chief Rear Admiral Peter Vilho as being to (undertake)"appropriate naval operations in defence of the country, assisting the Ministry of Fisheries and Marine Resources with fisheries patrols, protecting offshore installations, protecting trade routes within the country's territorial waters and conducting search and rescue operations,&#8221; the Namibian newspaper reported.


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## a1b2c145

Nishan_101 said:


> Repeat: it is not a FAC proper but a patrol boat with missiles;
> It will patrol in peace time (100%-x% of service life) while having a usefull capability for wartime (x% of service life). With x being kept as small a possible. How hard is it?
> 
> 30kt on water is not slow. Veer class (Russian project 1241 Nato: Tarantul) of about the same size does 35 - 40 knots but has all GTu propulsion (i.e. lesser endurance: 1650 at 14 knots , operational autonomy for 10 days, with crew = 40-50 as compared to 12-14 sailors for Azmat)
> 
> Fast is Japan's Hayabusa class or Italy's Sparviero (both 46 kt). The former is 240 tons and the latter 60 tons.


 





The should replace a single boat with two in the rear section of FAC and utilize the middle portion for an automated gun like this one:











[/QUOTE]

China 's type 022 also use the same guns as AZMAT 




I think AZMAT should replace the front gun with this one which is used on type 056


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## Anotherangle

S.Y.A said:


> the thing is that BD navy knows what it wants, and PN sometimes seems confused over its priorities


 I think PN leadership is not confused at all: they know their priorities, e.g. ..............................., ................. and so on. however, professional matters ....


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## S.Y.A

Capt.Popeye said:


> Fact is, the BD Navy has good advisors, across its borders. Cant let our friends down, can we?



if you are their friend than why the hell are they buying such things from China and not from India?


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## Capt.Popeye

S.Y.A said:


> if you are their friend than why the hell are they buying such things from China and not from India?



So that the Indians can get a good, hard look at the Chinese hardware. Now what are good friends for?


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## S.Y.A

Capt.Popeye said:


> So that the Indians can get a good, hard look at the Chinese hardware. Now what are good friends for?



and if you are their friend who the hell will they use this stuff against? I dont think India needs to look at Chinese hardware, Russia can help India much better than BD in this regard


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## a1b2c145

Newly built LPC for Bangladesh Navy launched in China might be better than the ones for Pakistan, at least they have 76 mm main guns!!! I don't know why navy want something else^^^^


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## Penguin

a1b2c145 said:


> Newly built LPC for Bangladesh Navy launched in China might be better than the ones for Pakistan, at least they have 76 mm main guns!!! I don't know why navy want something else^^^^



Clearly a different design from Azmat, with different role and emphasis in the context of its particular navy.

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## aziqbal

Penguin said:


> Hey this is passtime for me, so why rush ;-)
> 
> 
> There is no denying the asymmetry.
> But so what?
> Then no matter what you pack on how large a ship, you're doomed anyway.
> End of discussion afaic.
> 
> (PN doesn't only exist to ward off IN, just as it is not IN sole task to hit on PN.)
> 
> 
> 
> Warship Technology
> 
> I suppose next Jul/Aug 2012 issue isn't out/online yet.
> Warship Technology Online



i was able to view this article last time, but now when i click it asks me to register? do old articles become avaible for a period of time or something?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Very nice video

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

This was in Hong Kong, not Singapore; the video was posted a long time ago in the Azmat thread.


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## Nishan_101

PN could have made a JV or 700 ton FAC, 2100-2500 tons Corvette and 3200-3400 tons Frigate like F-22P but with advance systems on board. So that they will learn in a better way how to design and build from Scratch...


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## aziqbal

What's latest on PNS Dehshat?? Was launched last year should have been fitted out by now is it commissioned, anyone have any pics

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## UmarJustice

Looking for info on PNS Dehshat.


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## Penguin

> Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Limited (KSEW) yesterday [Penguin: august 16, 2012] held a ceremony, to mark the reception of the second Chinese-built Fast Attack Craft (FAC) of the Pakistan Navy, PNS Dehshat....The 600-tonne PNS Dehshat, which is *expected to enter active service soon after completing the remaining sets of marine trials*, operates with a crew of 14 naval servicemen.


Infomarine.net Maritime RSS news Aggregator - Chinese-Built Fast Attack Craft PNS Dehshat Delivered



> Pakistan Navy will be handed over 4th F-22 P Frigate in April 2013
> March 21, 2013
> In addition, a Fast Attack Missile Craft and a 32-ton Tug are also under construction [Penguin: at KSEW] which would be handed over to PN as per the contractual schedule.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/41-pakistan-navy-news-discussions-17.html#post4065592

This suggests it has not yet been handed over to/ entered service with PN


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## Nishan_101

I think PN needs to have about 7 of this and later 7 more of the next block-IIs.


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## Gentelman

Nishan_101 said:


> I think PN needs to have about 7 of this and later 7 more of the next block-IIs.



Well that was expected from you...
Well PN just needs maximum 6 of them...
and even 6 are not present at moment because plans for 4 covertees 4 more F-22P and 6 subs is underway.....


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## AUSTERLITZ

A funny thing i noticed on azmat clas,the boat doesn't have sensors necessary to track,acquire and guide its c-802 missiles.Requires guidance from external sensors?Its useless on its own.Or am i missing something here?


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## Tajdar adil

how many fast attack ships pak navy inducting and can we get transfer of technology...


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## AUSTERLITZ

Tajdar adil said:


> how many fast attack ships pak navy inducting and can we get transfer of technology...



What technology is there in building a fast boat.U put a gun ,a point defence sam and a few missiles on a fast boat,thats it.

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## Nishan_101

I think now PN could take some money from GoP to produce some 8-9 more FACs....


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## aziqbal

Still no sign of the second unit?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tajdar adil said:


> how many fast attack ships pak navy inducting and can we get transfer of technology...



One to built in china the others in Pakistan.


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## Nishan_101

So will PN now going to produce a newer midified version of FAC with 700 Tons and adding anti submarine capability. I am sure then adding 11 of these would be good but needs $$$ from GOP which might be possible...???  can't say anything..


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## piddu

yes pictures dikhao batein krte ho


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## Inception-06

ziaulislam said:


> it should b equipped with a very effective short range defence system against antiship missiles and aircrafts named FM-90 if not then definitely the QW-1 Vanguard





Do you Think that our ships like the Azmat have Manpads on board ?


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## Rocky rock

AUSTERLITZ said:


> What technology is there in building a fast boat.U put a gun ,a point defence sam and a few missiles on a fast boat,thats it.



Oh Really?? So why don't you built few of these crafts at you home?? if that's that much easy to built???

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## Inception-06

We want Manpads for Pakistani Ship on board !!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZKCXusGOWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQhzsRb9cbM


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## Dazzler

AUSTERLITZ said:


> What technology is there in building a fast boat.U put a gun ,a point defence sam and a few missiles on a fast boat,thats it.



So this is how IN makes her missile boats hmm, can they convert my boat into a missile boat? 

you forgot a painstaking integration process, a decent combat management system with sufficient speed to handle various tasks, a decent EW system for self protection, radar and sonars to name a few. All to make sure the whole system works.

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> One to built in china the others in Pakistan.



And How many of them we are planning to build Sir ?


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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> And How many of them we are planning to build Sir ?



1 as you can read !

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## AUSTERLITZ

Dazzler said:


> So this is how IN makes her missile boats hmm, can they convert my boat into a missile boat?
> 
> you forgot a painstaking integration process, a decent combat management system with sufficient speed to handle various tasks, a decent EW system for self protection, radar and sonars to name a few. All to make sure the whole system works.



These boats don't have radar powerful enough to utilize the range of their missiles unless aided by spotters,its air defence capability is negligible .As for sonars it doesn't have any useful ASW suite.SO much for the whole system.Your navy builds these simply because of financial issues.



Dazzler said:


> So this is how IN makes her missile boats hmm, can they convert my boat into a missile boat?
> 
> you forgot a painstaking integration process, a decent combat management system with sufficient speed to handle various tasks, a decent EW system for self protection, radar and sonars to name a few. All to make sure the whole system works.



These boats don't have radar powerful enough to utilize the range of their missiles unless aided by spotters,its air defence capability is negligible .As for sonars it doesn't have any useful ASW suite.SO much for the whole system.Your navy builds these simply because of financial issues.



Rocky rock said:


> Oh Really?? So why don't you built few of these crafts at you home?? if that's that much easy to built???



Our naval doctrine aims at blue water navy,where there is no use for these limited ships.We build a few fast interceptor crafts for coast guard to deal with maritime safety and thats it.Even our latest corvettes are 3000 tonnes,which are light frigates in all but name.


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## rockstar08

i like this ship  looks pretty cool with 2x 2 tubes of anti ship missiles, i hope they must have installed at least simple sam system .... it can be used as many ways what you guys think ?


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## Dazzler

AUSTERLITZ said:


> These boats don't have radar powerful enough to utilize the range of their missiles unless aided by spotters,its air defence capability is negligible .As for sonars it doesn't have any useful ASW suite.SO much for the whole system.Your navy builds these simply because of financial issues.
> 
> 
> 
> These boats don't have radar powerful enough to utilize the range of their missiles unless aided by spotters,its air defence capability is negligible .As for sonars it doesn't have any useful ASW suite.SO much for the whole system.Your navy builds these simply because of financial issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Our naval doctrine aims at blue water navy,where there is no use for these limited ships.We build a few fast interceptor crafts for coast guard to deal with maritime safety and thats it.Even our latest corvettes are 3000 tonnes,which are light frigates in all but name.



Never knew your IN going for an Aegis combat system for their missile boats.


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## Black Eagle 90

PN needs to build a newer version of it with 700 tons displacement fitted with 3 powerful Electric Azi Pods, 8Cell AShMs, 3Cell-Torpedo tubes on either sides, Single CIWS with its sensors, 50/57mm Main gun and instead of single boat fitted with two boats....


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## AUSTERLITZ

Dazzler said:


> Never knew your IN going for an Aegis combat system for their missile boats.



We don't intend to build missile boats in the first place.Our aegis type systems will be on destroyers,something PN only pretends to have with fake designations on old light frigates.


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## Dazzler

AUSTERLITZ said:


> We don't intend to build missile boats in the first place.Our aegis type systems will be on destroyers,something PN only pretends to have with fake designations on old light frigates.



your Aegis type systems.... such as?


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## satishkumarcsc

Dazzler said:


> your Aegis type systems.... such as?



MF Star coupled with the BARAK system.

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## farhan_9909

the ministry of defence production report of last year mention that KSEW has is manufacturing corvette for Navy

IF someone remember the MSL chair person reported that they have offered a design of a 1000ton to navy.if they select it than KSEW can manufacture it for them


I hope KSEW take some indigenous project and rather build something in the lines of 1500-2000tons corvette for the PN.as they will be cheaper than buying the design first and and manufacturing them than locally like the PNS azmat


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## Nishan_101

farhan_9909 said:


> the ministry of defence production report of last year mention that KSEW has is manufacturing corvette for Navy
> 
> IF someone remember the MSL chair person reported that they have offered a design of a 1000ton to navy.if they select it than KSEW can manufacture it for them
> 
> 
> I hope KSEW take some indigenous project and rather build something in the lines of 1500-2000tons corvette for the PN.as they will be cheaper than buying the design first and and manufacturing them than locally like the PNS azmat



I am sure KSEW wants to expand, also PN should try to take some help from Western as well as Chinese expert in order to make these equipment on their own:
3800-4100 Tons Frigate(with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Anti Air missiles)
2100-2500 Tons Corvette(with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Anti Air missiles)
700-750 Tons FAC (with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Torpedoes Launchers)

Also to do JV with Gemrany on Submarines...

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## Zarvan

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure KSEW wants to expand, also PN should try to take some help from Western as well as Chinese expert in order to make these equipment on their own:
> 3800-4100 Tons Frigate(with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Anti Air missiles)
> 2100-2500 Tons Corvette(with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Anti Air missiles)
> 700-750 Tons FAC (with all VLS capability for launching AShM/Cruise Missiles and Torpedoes Launchers)
> 
> Also to do JV with Gemrany on Submarines...


Sir by 2025 Pakistan navy should have the size off which now days turkey has and yes agree with other points and we need them fast


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## Nishan_101

Zarvan said:


> Sir by 2025 Pakistan navy should have the size off which now days turkey has and yes agree with other points and we need them fast


 @Zarvan Dear Brother. I think PN should develop some good facility at Gawadar Port as well like take the eastern and western part of the port and make two mega ship yards there along with Naval facility. So that middle portion of the port would be clear for the fisheries and port duties.

Also in this way PN could keep it equipment away from the Public eyes too. Also same procedures should be adopted at Karachi and at Ormara too.

If not wrong then PN should look towards:
21 SSK 3000 tons
16 SSK 1500 tons
11 SSK 700 tons

15 Frigates 3800-4100 tons
11 Corvettes 2100-2500 tons
16 FAC 700-750 tons

and a good deal of other equipment too.

Although not cheap to maintain but INSHA ALLAH our economy will grow.

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## Zarvan

Nishan_101 said:


> @Zarvan Dear Brother. I think PN should develop some good facility at Gawadar Port as well like take the eastern and western part of the port and make two mega ship yards there along with Naval facility. So that middle portion of the port would be clear for the fisheries and port duties.
> 
> Also in this way PN could keep it equipment away from the Public eyes too. Also same procedures should be adopted at Karachi and at Ormara too.
> 
> If not wrong then PN should look towards:
> 21 SSK 3000 tons
> 16 SSK 1500 tons
> 11 SSK 700 tons
> 
> 15 Frigates 3800-4100 tons
> 11 Corvettes 2100-2500 tons
> 16 FAC 700-750 tons
> 
> and a good deal of other equipment too.
> 
> Although not cheap to maintain but INSHA ALLAH our economy will grow.



Sir completely agree Sir our enemy is getting too big that size you mentioned is the minimum size we should have Sir and equip them with most latest missiles Sir


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## Nishan_101

Zarvan said:


> Sir completely agree Sir our enemy is getting too big that size you mentioned is the minimum size we should have Sir and equip them with most latest missiles Sir



But now there are many people since 3 years on Defence.pk that says we don't have money. Actually we had money before this time which we can utilized properly. But still there are good people joining Military as well as other departments too. Just we need some courage to make it happen.

JAZAKALLAH Brother.

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## Donatello

satishkumarcsc said:


> MF Star coupled with the BARAK system.



Barak is Aegis type? you must be joking.

Mig-21 must be F-15 by that logic.

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## satishkumarcsc

Donatello said:


> Barak is Aegis type? you must be joking.
> 
> Mig-21 must be F-15 by that logic.



Well with BARAK 8 it will be. You missed out the MF-STAR. Aegis has two categories. The Aegis Combat System for self defence and the Aegis BMD with the RIM 174 for Ballistic missile defence. Both are derivatives of the SM-2 platform.

The Heart of the Aegis being the AN/SPY-1 Radar which is similar to the MF-STAR

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/27543.pdf


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## Gentelman

Nishan_101 said:


> @Zarvan Dear Brother. I think PN should develop some good facility at Gawadar Port as well like take the eastern and western part of the port and make two mega ship yards there along with Naval facility. So that middle portion of the port would be clear for the fisheries and port duties.
> 
> Also in this way PN could keep it equipment away from the Public eyes too. Also same procedures should be adopted at Karachi and at Ormara too.
> 
> If not wrong then PN should look towards:
> 21 SSK 3000 tons
> 16 SSK 1500 tons
> 11 SSK 700 tons
> 
> 15 Frigates 3800-4100 tons
> 11 Corvettes 2100-2500 tons
> 16 FAC 700-750 tons
> 
> and a good deal of other equipment too.
> 
> Although not cheap to maintain but INSHA ALLAH our economy will grow.



reduce Corvettes to 6-8and FAC to 8-10
and all combination of subs total to 20 rather than 49 to make that list real&#8230;&#8230;


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## S.Y.A

Gentelman said:


> reduce Corvettes to 6-8and FAC to 8-10
> and all combination of subs total to 20 rather than 49 to make that list real&#8230;&#8230;



i would say the figure for FACs is right, and 12 subs should be enough. retire frigates and instead use more corvettes(they would be smaller and faster and so hard to detect)


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## Gentelman

S.Y.A said:


> i would say the figure for FACs is right, and 12 subs should be enough. retire frigates and instead use more corvettes(they would be smaller and faster and so hard to detect)



plans for just 4 corvettes so it's unfair to expect more than 6


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## S.Y.A

Gentelman said:


> plans for just 4 corvettes so it's unfair to expect more than 6&#8230;&#8230;



i am also retiring the frigates  you did not notice that


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## Gentelman

S.Y.A said:


> i am also retiring the frigates  you did not notice that



PN planns still on 15 or atleast having 12 frigates.
The british subs retired would be replaced by OPH class while F-22 and F-23Ps are new toys.


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## Tacticool

Gentelman said:


> PN planns still on 15 or atleast having 12 frigates.
> The british subs retired would be replaced by OPH class while F-22 and F-23Ps are new toys.



I think no more OPHs are coming. And OPH is not very worthy as it has no modern weapons.
And what is f23p? Do you have its specs?



Gentelman said:


> PN planns still on 15 or atleast having 12 frigates.
> The british subs retired would be replaced by OPH class while F-22 and F-23Ps are new toys.



I think no more OPHs are coming. And OPH is not very worthy as it has no modern weapons.
And what is f23p? Do you have its specs?



Gentelman said:


> PN planns still on 15 or atleast having 12 frigates.
> The british subs retired would be replaced by OPH class while F-22 and F-23Ps are new toys.



I think no more OPHs are coming. And OPH is not very worthy as it has no modern weapons.
And what is f23p? Do you have its specs?


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## Gentelman

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> I think no more OPHs are coming. And OPH is not very worthy as it has no modern weapons.
> And what is f23p? Do you have its specs?



back in IDEAS 2012 there were PN orders of upgraded F-22 varient blieved to be called F-23P
having some structural improvements,E/W improvements,air defence improvements & sub warfare capability improvements
OHP is pretty capable for the role you are having it and what you are paying for it and I hope PN get 2 of those in 2014.
and turkish upgrade on OHP can make them deadly.


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## Tacticool

Gentelman said:


> OHP is pretty capable for the role you are having it and what you are paying for it and I hope PN get 2 of those in 2014.
> and turkish upgrade on OHP can make them deadly.



Deadly with what?
It has no weapons. No harpoons no modern weapons.


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## Gentelman

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Deadly with what?
> It has no weapons. No harpoons no modern weapons.



Compare it with what it is being replaced.
The British Type 0 something&#8230;&#8230;
It is much deadly then current British ships PN is operating&#8230;&#8230;
And Turkey is upgrading OHP we can also take help from them to uograde these to carry modern European sencors E/W suits & Weaponary i.e Harpoon&#8230;&#8230;

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## Black Eagle 90

In short Azmat is not being produced in the right manner like it should have multi purpose capability like with:
CIWS proper one
50/57m.m Main Gun
2x 4-Cell AShMs
2x 3-Cell Torpedoes
2x Fast RIBs Class boat.

and if we have designed it with Chinese help in Pakistan having 700 Tons in weight; then we cannot only produce it but also market it as well in Muslim and other Friendly Countries too.

I am sure that PN might require 16 of these in total and in 15 years time to.

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## Penguin

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Deadly with what?
> It has no weapons. No harpoons no modern weapons.



Though removal of the Mk13 launcher eliminates the use of Harpoon and SM1 missiles, the OHP still has up to date Phalanx CIWS, 76mm DP compact naval gun, 2x3 TR ASW, 2 ASW heli's. It's sensors in most cases are better than those on e.g. Tpe 21 used by PN. It should be easy to mount a bunch of Harpoon or equivalent missile on racks on the superstructure (see how Taiwanese have added HF-2 and HF-3 to their OHPs). Park a RAM or similar Chinese system and you have functional SAM capability.

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## Tacticool

Penguin said:


> Though removal of the Mk13 launcher eliminates the use of Harpoon and SM1 missiles, the OHP still has up to date Phalanx CIWS, 76mm DP compact naval gun, 2x3 TR ASW, 2 ASW heli's. It's sensors in most cases are better than those on e.g. Tpe 21 used by PN. It should be easy to mount a bunch of Harpoon or equivalent missile on racks on the superstructure (see how Taiwanese have added HF-2 and HF-3 to their OHPs). Park a RAM or similar Chinese system and you have functional SAM capability.



Would they allow us to put chinese or indeginous weapons?


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## S.Y.A

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Would they allow us to put chinese or indeginous weapons?



some naval officers told me that one of the type 21s has been retired, and is just rusting at the dockyard, its weapons will be placed on the OHP instead.


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## Penguin

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Would they allow us to put chinese or indeginous weapons?



Why not, there are non-western HMGs fitted fitted, it is operating Z-9s ... see Taiwan (HS2 and HS3 installed, plus 2x single 40mm)



S.Y.A said:


> some naval officers told me that one of the type 21s has been retired, and is just rusting at the dockyard, its weapons will be placed on the OHP instead.



That is to be expected, the Type 21s are old!

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## Penguin

Depending on which Type 21, that could mean installation of a set of Harpoon launchers plus Phalanx, or LY90 plus some cannon. (i'm inclined towards the former set)


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## S.Y.A

Penguin said:


> Depending on which Type 21, that could mean installation of a set of Harpoon launchers plus Phalanx, or LY90 plus some cannon. (i'm inclined towards the former set)



pns badr is the one that has been retired.


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## Nishan_101

S.Y.A said:


> pns badr is the one that has been retired.


Pn hasn't retired any fleet ship yet.

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## S.Y.A

Nishan_101 said:


> Pn hasn't retired any fleet ship yet.



not officially retired, its just rusting at the dockyard, mostly used as a spare parts supply for other ships. you can see it on google maps too.


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## 592257001

AUSTERLITZ said:


> A funny thing i noticed on azmat clas,the boat doesn't have sensors necessary to track,acquire and guide its c-802 missiles.Requires guidance from external sensors?Its useless on its own.Or am i missing something here?


Any warship of a potent navy is never about "fighting on its own". Naval warfare is always about fighting within a system, a system of varies sensor inputs. The C802 launched from Azmat could utilize data from PN P-3 Orions, or Z-9s for mid-course correction while it cruises to terminal guidance phase. That being said, the Azmat does have a type 36X radar (improved upon type 360)E/F band radar for target acquisition and inputting firing solution for WVR air and surface targets. The realistic surface target acquisition distance is not dependent on "power" as some naive Indian member pointed out above, but based on the height of the radar mast(excluding certain BVR radar made by Russia/China). Thus, it can be concluded that Azmat is just as potent in its ability as a surface combatant as any other Indian counterpart.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> We don't intend to build missile boats in the first place.Our aegis type systems will be on destroyers,something PN only pretends to have with fake designations on old light frigates.


"Will", that's some thing I hear alot from the IN. Talk 'bout what you do have, because I am afraid the Kolkata will not be combat effective for some time.
I hope you are not SERIOUSLY drawing comparisons between MF STAR and AN/SPY-1 or Barak 8 and SM2/3 here.

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## alimobin memon

The pupose of this 700ton is not to do offence but defence and for that it is suited. its AK 630 CIWS which in my opinion is one of the best weapon for both offense and defence. it has C802 Ashm which is definitely deadly. It has main gun to fight other FAC which is 23mm good against any FAC and faster to point at target faster reload and complete automatic are some of its good qualities. But most important thing is its speed which gives it an edge over missiles. Targetting a ship with missile is tough specially against FAC. Ashm have a similar properties like Cruise missile they fall on the projected distance or in most advance can change its course slowly but by that time FAC are manuevered away. 

We always look in weapons in a way like western having heavy firepower. But Mostly if u see in documentaries and read the war stories they throw a missile on tiny targets. thats what fools us we think we require a 75mm gun for FAC or so. its just an example but I hope u understand. for a class of FAC its already have more than enough punch. furthermore the navy has already equipped its ship with man pad they can fend of any target in terms of speed as on sea level most targets dont go beyong M 1.4-1.6.

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## 592257001

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well with BARAK 8 it will be. You missed out the MF-STAR. Aegis has two categories. The Aegis Combat System for self defence and the Aegis BMD with the RIM 174 for Ballistic missile defence. Both are derivatives of the SM-2 platform.
> 
> The Heart of the Aegis being the AN/SPY-1 Radar which is similar to the MF-STAR
> 
> http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/27543.pdf


I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems that you are suggesting that Barak 8, a missile that could supposedly reach out to 70km at Mach 2, is as good as Aegis systems, based on the "SM-2 platform"(mind you, that is a missile with range of 170km at mach 3.5). That is MUCH less than the stand-off distance required by the IN to deter PAF birds from launching ASMs such as the CM-400, with range of 240km+ and terminal speed of Mach 5.5. (I believe most people here here knows why it is claimed as 240km only, as per international arms trade regulation)

A "comparable" Aegis TYPE vessel would be the type 52D, with its HHQ-9 missile with range of 200km+ and travels at mach 4+ (data of HHQ-9, since data for the HHQ-9A/B, which is meant for the 52D is still classified and therefore speculation only)

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## 592257001

AUSTERLITZ said:


> We don't intend to build missile boats in the first place.Our aegis type systems will be on destroyers,something PN only pretends to have with fake designations on old light frigates.



oh I don't think the 22nd KILLER missile vessel squadron of the IN would be too pleased to hear their names being forgotten. Does the Abhay class and the Veer class mean any thing to you? Or maybe you should be less ignorant 'bout your own navy before pointing fingers.

Funny how the same thing could be said for "IN only pretend to have fake designations (corvette)on old missile boats"

As for the quality of the Azmat, I would like to post a picture of their Indian counterparts in comparison.

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## satishkumarcsc

592257001 said:


> I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems that you are suggesting that Barak 8, a missile that could supposedly reach out to 70km at Mach 2, is as good as Aegis systems, based on the "SM-2 platform"(mind you, that is a missile with range of 170km at mach 3.5). That is MUCH less than the stand-off distance required by the IN to deter PAF birds from launching ASMs such as the CM-400, with range of 240km+ and terminal speed of Mach 5.5. (I believe most people here here knows why it is claimed as 240km only, as per international arms trade regulation)
> 
> A "comparable" Aegis TYPE vessel would be the type 52D, with its HHQ-9 missile with range of 200km+ and travels at mach 4+ (data of HHQ-9, since data for the HHQ-9A/B, which is meant for the 52D is still classified and therefore speculation only)


You are still confused between the two derivatives of the RIM 174. One is an ABM and the other is a Missile defence system.

And the CM-400 is not a new system and is based on the Kh 15 Raduga which is a very old concept. The missile is modern but the concept has existed for a very long time.

I still have my reservations comparing the Aleigh-Burke to the Type 52D.

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## 592257001

satishkumarcsc said:


> You are still confused between the two derivatives of the RIM 174. One is an ABM and the other is a Missile defence system.
> 
> And the CM-400 is not a new system and is based on the Kh 15 Raduga which is a very old concept. The missile is modern but the concept has existed for a very long time.
> 
> I still have my reservations comparing the Aleigh-Burke to the Type 52D.


Lol, i ain't the one confused. This comment of yours just further emphasized your lack of knowledge.

First, it's not the "two derivatives of the RIM 174", but the "two derivatives of Aegis combat system" since RIM 174 refers to SM-6 (based on SM-2), that is intended for all non-ABM role of Aegis.

Secondly, you were the one who previously said "the two variants of aegis are both based on the SM-2", not me. I didn't even bothered pointing out your mistake the first time, but the two variants of Aegis are based on two different MISSILES, the one based on SM-3 is for ABM while the other based on SM-2ER is for fleet-wide air defense.

Third mistake of yours, no one claimed the CM-400 to be a "New design", since super-sonic long range ASMs that follows a high-low flight path have definitely existed before, though I don't know what you would classify as a new design (My guess is you would consider all ballistic missiles in the world a shameless copy of V-2?). Especially since the Kh-15 can only be fitted on board Tupolov bombers, and the CM-400 can be fitted on board a nimble bird such as JF-17. Plus, the focus here was never about whether or not CM-400 is an old or new design, is it?

Lastly, I have SERIES reservation about your logic as you would consider Kolkata as an Aegis type ship but reluctant to think 52D as such.

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## satishkumarcsc

592257001 said:


> Lol, i ain't the one confused. This comment of yours just further emphasized your lack of knowledge.
> 
> First, it's not the "two derivatives of the RIM 174", but the "two derivatives of Aegis combat system" since RIM 174 refers to SM-6 (based on SM-2), that is intended for all non-ABM role of Aegis.
> 
> Secondly, you were the one who previously said "the two variants of aegis are both based on the SM-2", not me. I didn't even bothered pointing out your mistake the first time, but the two variants of Aegis are based on two different MISSILES, the one based on SM-3 is for ABM while the other based on SM-2ER is for fleet-wide air defense.
> 
> Third mistake of yours, no one claimed the CM-400 to be a "New design", since terminally hyper-sonic long range ASMs have definitely existed before, though I don't know what you would classify as a new design.
> 
> Lastly, I have SERIES reservation about your logic as you would consider Kolkata as an Aegis type ship but reluctant to think 52D as such.


Not worth my time.


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## 592257001

satishkumarcsc said:


> Not worth my time.



With tail tugged between tis hind legs, like the others before him, he refuse to accept the truth...

Seriously, I really hoped some respectable Indian member like yourself would have shed some meaningful light on this, not just come into a post about PN vessels and troll

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## alimobin memon

Aegis is being discussed here in thread is it being inducted in PN ships or what ?


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## Nishan_101

I still think PN needs to add more Azmat Class FAC about 16 of them total with 57mm Main Gun, a proper CIWS and also with some submarine rockets to counter some submarines as well.

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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> I still think PN needs to add more Azmat Class FAC about 16 of them total with 57mm Main Gun, a proper CIWS and also with some submarine rockets to counter some submarines as well.


Why do you think so?
Why 16 and not 14 or 18; 12 or 20?
Why a 57mm rather than e.g. a 35-40mm or a 76mm?
Why attempt to put a FAC (fast, loud) into an ASW role (slow, quiet)?



alimobin memon said:


> Aegis is being discussed here in thread is it being inducted in PN ships or what ?



No



satishkumarcsc said:


> Not worth my time.


Pity. Some good points were made.


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## Penguin

592257001 said:


> Lastly, I have SERIES reservation about your logic as you would consider Kolkata as an Aegis type ship but reluctant to think 52D as such.



Just because a ship has certain types of fixed arrays doesn't necessarily make it have a capability comparable to an Aegis ship, esp when those tend to be large destroyers/ small cruisers. I would be vey careful to compare/equate Kolkata (i.e. Israëli EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar, EL/M-2238 L-band STAR and Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar coupled to BEL Electronic Modular Command & Control Applications EMCCA Mk4 combat management system) as well as 052D (lord knows what's inside) to, say, the late model Burke's and Tico's. Just as I would be carefull to do so with our Tales outfitted Dutch LCF Zeven Provincien. They do all have area air defence roles and are tasked with protecting not only themselves but also other vessels in a task group. I think the weapons used by the respective VLS's should not be included in (considered part of) these AAW command systems


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> I still think PN needs to add more Azmat Class FAC about 16 of them total with 57mm Main Gun, a proper CIWS and also with some submarine rockets to counter some submarines as well.


 
finally somebody woke up

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## Thorough Pro

Buddy, you are wasting your time, he is an indian



Dazzler said:


> So this is how IN makes her missile boats hmm, can they convert my boat into a missile boat?
> 
> you forgot a painstaking integration process, a decent combat management system with sufficient speed to handle various tasks, a decent EW system for self protection, radar and sonars to name a few. All to make sure the whole system works.


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## Bilal.

The Naval Chief while commending the management and workers of the shipyard, China Shipbuilding & Offshore Company (CSOC), Xingang Shipyard and Naval Authorities associated with this project, said that construction of PNS DEHSHAT at Karachi Shipyard under Transfer of Technology (ToT) arrangement is yet another example of Pak – China friendship which is grooming stronger with every passing day.
“Karachi Shipyard today stands completely revitalized and reporting its financial turnaround. This success was only possible due to reposing confidence and trust in KS&EW, their hardwork and selfless devotion. Construction of PNS DEHSHAT is a major step towards augmenting our potential in the field of Defence Production”.
He expressed that focus on establishment of new shipyards is the need of the day as it will lay foundation for long term socio-economic benefits for Pakistan.

Chief of the Naval Staff also reiterated the crew that with their hard work and dedication, PNS DEHSHAT will sail tall and strong, and will face every challenge with courage and tenacity which is hallmark of our sailors. “To the Fleet Command, I may say that you are getting a ship well built and well tested that you may deploy as per the aspirations of Pakistan Navy and the nation”.

Earlier, MD KS&EW thanked MoDP (GoP) and Pakistan Navy for taking bold step of indigenous construction of ships at Karachi Shipyard and apprised that Karachi shipyard, today, is fully geared up with requisite infrastructure and highly trained manpower to undertake more challenging project with earnest zeal and vigor.

PNS DEHSHAT is a 63-meter long Fast Attack Craft equipped with state of the art weapons and sensors including surface to surface missiles. It will also be able to undertake anti-air and search & rescue operations.

The ceremony was attended by representatives of China Shipbuilding & Offshore Company (CSOC), Diplomats and other high ranking officials from GoP, Pakistan Navy and KS&EW.

PNS Dehshat commissioned, inducted | Pakistan News


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## acetophenol

pics and specs please!


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## OrionHunter

I think this is old news. 

The Pakistan Navy had launched this fast-attack craft constructed in collaboration with China way back in Aug 2012.

A spokesman for the Pakistan Navy had said the fast-attack craft named 'PNS Dehshat' was the second ship of its kind and was constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) in collaboration with China State Shipbuilding, Offshore International Company and Xingang Shipyard under a transfer of technology arrangement.

The first ship PNS Azmat was inducted in the PN Fleet in June 2012.

PNS Dehshat: Navy’s second ‘fast-attack’ craft launched – The Express Tribune


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## manojb

What's the meaning of Dehshat?


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## Bilal.

OrionHunter said:


> I think this is old news.
> 
> The Pakistan Navy had launched this fast-attack craft constructed in collaboration with China way back in Aug 2012.
> 
> A spokesman for the Pakistan Navy had said the fast-attack craft named 'PNS Dehshat' was the second ship of its kind and was constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) in collaboration with China State Shipbuilding, Offshore International Company and Xingang Shipyard under a transfer of technology arrangement.
> 
> The first ship PNS Azmat was inducted in the PN Fleet in June 2012.
> 
> PNS Dehshat: Navy’s second ‘fast-attack’ craft launched – The Express Tribune



Inducted today.



manojb said:


> What's the meaning of Dehshat?



Terror.


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## Ra'ad

manojb said:


> What's the meaning of Dehshat?


It is derived from the word: "Dehshat gard". A dehshat gard is a terrorist. So the boat is called dehshat meaning: terroroost, or simply a roost that spreads terror.


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## Jf Thunder

Deshat hai bhai ki

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## Manticore

22Dec2012

*Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched*
2 Anti-Ship Missiles, Pakistan Navy



Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched | Pakistan Military Review
The Pakistan Navy’s 2nd PNS Azmat Fast Attack Missile Craft (FAMC) of the PNS Azmat class was launched yesterday during a ceremony at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW).




New Fast Attack Missile Craft, named PNS Dehshat was produced by the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) under the Transfer of Technology agreement from China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Company (CSOC). and Xingang Shipyard.




Pakistan navy inducted 1st Fast Attack Missile Craft of this class named PNS Azmat in its naval fleet in June 2012.




Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Asif Sandila, has termed the production the Fast Attack Missile Craft at Karachi Shipyard as an another example of “unparalleled” Sino-Pak relations.

Read more: Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched | Pakistan Military Review

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## PakEye

manojb said:


> What's the meaning of Dehshat?


Mean The Biggest Fear For Enemy.


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## Gentelman

Nishan_101 said:


> I still think PN needs to add more Azmat Class FAC about 16 of them total with 57mm Main Gun, a proper CIWS and also with some submarine rockets to counter some submarines as well.


So you are back.... Again!!
Tera computer sarr Q ni gatta!!

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## Gentelman

manojb said:


> What's the meaning of Dehshat?


Google is there for such sorta questions!!
Mind using it!!


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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> 22Dec2012
> 
> *Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched*
> 2 Anti-Ship Missiles, Pakistan Navy
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched | Pakistan Military Review
> The Pakistan Navy’s 2nd PNS Azmat Fast Attack Missile Craft (FAMC) of the PNS Azmat class was launched yesterday during a ceremony at Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Fast Attack Missile Craft, named PNS Dehshat was produced by the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) under the Transfer of Technology agreement from China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Company (CSOC). and Xingang Shipyard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan navy inducted 1st Fast Attack Missile Craft of this class named PNS Azmat in its naval fleet in June 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Asif Sandila, has termed the production the Fast Attack Missile Craft at Karachi Shipyard as an another example of “unparalleled” Sino-Pak relations.
> 
> Read more: Pakistan Navy's 2nd Fast Attack (Missile) Craft FAMC, PNS Dehshat Launched | Pakistan Military Review


How many more we plan to build and induct in our Navy ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> How many more we plan to build and induct in our Navy ?



Plans are for at least 2 more..

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## Malghani




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## DESERT FIGHTER

*







PNS DEHSHAT:
*





*CGI:*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The DHESHAT is my favourite boat ... in whole navy

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## Blouin

alimobin memon said:


> The pupose of this 700ton is not to do offence but defence and for that it is suited. its AK 630 CIWS which in my opinion is one of the best weapon for both offense and defence. it has C802 Ashm which is definitely deadly. It has main gun to fight other FAC which is 23mm good against any FAC and faster to point at target faster reload and complete automatic are some of its good qualities. But most important thing is its speed which gives it an edge over missiles. Targetting a ship with missile is tough specially against FAC. Ashm have a similar properties like Cruise missile they fall on the projected distance or in most advance can change its course slowly but by that time FAC are manuevered away.
> 
> We always look in weapons in a way like western having heavy firepower. But Mostly if u see in documentaries and read the war stories they throw a missile on tiny targets. thats what fools us we think we require a 75mm gun for FAC or so. its just an example but I hope u understand. for a class of FAC its already have more than enough punch. furthermore the navy has already equipped its ship with man pad they can fend of any target in terms of speed as on sea level most targets dont go beyong M 1.4-1.6.


This is a terrible post. Defense FAC not offense? AK630 is for final anti ship defense, the main gun lacks any firepower against other FAC, most have a 30mm or larger to engage at a distance. The C802 is a pure offensive weapon. A FAC will not maneuver away from an anti-ship missile.
These FAC fit the need of the Pakistan navy, a small economical ship with a powerful SSM punch and a limited anti aircraft/anti missile defense

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## alimobin memon

Blouin said:


> This is a terrible post. Defense FAC not offense? AK630 is for final anti ship defense, the main gun lacks any firepower against other FAC, most have a 30mm or larger to engage at a distance. The C802 is a pure offensive weapon. A FAC will not maneuver away from an anti-ship missile.
> These FAC fit the need of the Pakistan navy, a small economical ship with a powerful SSM punch and a limited anti aircraft/anti missile defense


Respect others opinion who the hell are to you tell if post is terrible or not. Its been almost a year since I have written that post. Pakistan navy fast attack crafts are used for only coastal defence not any offence. having a ASHM onboard doesnt mean its offensive ship. Who told you that AK630 is only for defending against Ashm ? it can be used against any air threat to including missiles. its 23mm gun is good against any fast attack craft if not wipe it out it can easily put the ship out of service. You are terrible first research than shout !

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## Inception-06

Blouin said:


> This is a terrible post. Defense FAC not offense? AK630 is for final anti ship defense, the main gun lacks any firepower against other FAC, most have a 30mm or larger to engage at a distance. The C802 is a pure offensive weapon. A FAC will not maneuver away from an anti-ship missile.
> These FAC fit the need of the Pakistan navy, a small economical ship with a powerful SSM punch and a limited anti aircraft/anti missile defense



For the close-air-defence all Pakistani FAC are equipped with a combination of Mistral and Anza I Missiles, all western Navys are using the same tactic for their FAC (like you can see in the pictures):

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## Blouin

alimobin memon said:


> Respect others opinion who the hell are to you tell if post is terrible or not. Its been almost a year since I have written that post. Pakistan navy fast attack crafts are used for only coastal defence not any offence. having a ASHM onboard doesnt mean its offensive ship. Who told you that AK630 is only for defending against Ashm ? it can be used against any air threat to including missiles. its 23mm gun is good against any fast attack craft if not wipe it out it can easily put the ship out of service. You are terrible first research than shout !


so what you wrote would suggest an offensive boat, to counter piracy and coastal threats. the AK630 has a limited range, it won't shoot down air threats, mainly to stop last minute anti ship missiles. so the 23mm would be used against other boats. exactly, offensive by nature. and having an ASHM DOES mean it is offensive.


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## nomi007

azmat during pak-china naval exercise 2014

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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 111359
> azmat during pak-china naval exercise 2014



I cant open or see the picture !


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## nomi007

Ulla said:


> I cant open or see the picture !


refresh it

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Are these stealth Ships ? their design is very modern

And the armament on board is very lethal the missiles in back etc

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## nomi007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The DHESHAT is my favourite boat ... in whole navy


why bottom part is so black


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Shoulder held weaponry is nice but






This kind of robotics should be doable in Pakistan its not that complicated

Not to mention the Number of boats should be increased to 20-22 boats


SEA RAM unit





Would look nice for our Frigates and FAC boats

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## Inception-06

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The Shoulder held weaponry is nice but
> View attachment 126188
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of robotics should be doable in Pakistan its not that complicated
> 
> Not to mention the Number of boats should be increased to 20-22 boats
> 
> 
> SEA RAM unit
> View attachment 126220
> 
> 
> Would look nice for our Frigates and FAC boats




it needs also radar ! Which is very huge and cant be installed on such a little boat !


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nano Technology its all about Nano technology

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## aziqbal

Certainly azmat class is a good littoral ship and we could do with more of these units


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## monitor

I think few of this could much better


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## Zarvan

We need 24 of these in our Navy along with 24 Frigates and Corvettes

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> We need 24 of these in our Navy along with 24 Frigates and Corvettes


Yara zarvan.
Why are you going down the Nishan 101 route. Bhai we don't need more than 12 frigates at the max. As to FAC 12 -16 might just be enough. However where is the money going to come from and for what are we piling on these weapons. 8 doubt very much you will see any action this side of 2025.

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## Zarvan

araz said:


> Yara zarvan.
> Why are you going down the Nishan 101 route. Bhai we don't need more than 12 frigates at the max. As to FAC 12 -16 might just be enough. However where is the money going to come from and for what are we piling on these weapons. 8 doubt very much you will see any action this side of 2025.


I know economy sucks but when improves we need at least 24 Frigates and bigger Corvettes along with 12 Submarines and 24 at least Missile boats


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## rockstar08

Zarvan said:


> I know economy sucks but when improves we need at least 24 Frigates and bigger Corvettes along with 12 Submarines and 24 at least Missile boats



i think thats too much bro ...

12-14 Frigates along with 2-3 destroyers and 12-14 FAC would be great ...
and for subs , upto 10 subs would be enough to defend our coast ..

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## Zarvan

rockstar08 said:


> i think thats too much bro ...
> 
> 12-14 Frigates along with 2-3 destroyers and 12-14 FAC would be great ...
> and for subs , upto 10 subs would be enough to defend our coast ..


When good economy I still think 24 Frigates and Corvettes or 20 Frigates and 4 Cruise Missile destroters and 12 Submarines with 24 FAC

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## rockstar08

Zarvan said:


> When good economy I still think 24 Frigates and Corvettes or 20 Frigates and 4 Cruise Missile destroters and 12 Submarines with 24 FAC



thats too much for a small coast line ... i would prefer a strong Naval Airforce and PAF too ..why waste money 24 frigates ??

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## Zarvan

rockstar08 said:


> thats too much for a small coast line ... i would prefer a strong Naval Airforce and PAF too ..why waste money 24 frigates ??


Its not waste off money its needed


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## fatman17

eventually the Azmat class FAC's will replace all the legacy FAC's in PN inventory over the planned budget period for PN modernization.


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## Nike

araz said:


> Yara zarvan.
> Why are you going down the Nishan 101 route. Bhai we don't need more than 12 frigates at the max. As to FAC 12 -16 might just be enough. However where is the money going to come from and for what are we piling on these weapons. 8 doubt very much you will see any action this side of 2025.



@Zarvan reading too much of our section

Pakistan need to revamp their Army and air forces as their concern is in land warfare


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## Zarvan

madokafc said:


> @Zarvan reading too much of our section
> 
> Pakistan need to revamp their Army and air forces as their concern is in land warfare


We need at least 24 Frigates and Destroyers and 10 to 12 Submarines and I stand by this number we need lot more than what we have now and as for Indonesia you need at least what Japan has that is around 60 Frigates and Destroyers and 20 Submarines at least

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## Ray_of_Hope

madokafc said:


> @Zarvan reading too much of our section
> 
> *Pakistan need to revamp their Army and air forces as their concern is in land warfare*



Sir,u r wrong on that one cuz no military in the world can fight for longer periods of time without good navy.In case of pakistan around 80--90% trade is done through sea.

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## Krate M

has PNS Azmat made a public appearance after the attack? Any pics?


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## Basel

Pakistan should at least have 10 Frigates 3000+ ton and 8 destroyers 4500+ ton with up to 16 500+ ton Missile crafts.

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## sathya

Basel said:


> Pakistan should at least have 10 Frigates 3000+ ton and 8 destroyers 4500+ ton with up to 16 500+ ton Missile crafts.



requirements based on any calculations basel?


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## zaid butt

man navy officials know better than us they are doing well
current fleet is enough beside submarines 
16 submarines must


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## monitor

Basel said:


> Pakistan should at least have 10 Frigates 3000+ ton and 8 destroyers 4500+ ton with up to 16 500+ ton Missile crafts.



India for their 2.5 million square km sea area having total 175~185 vessel of all category from frigate to tug boat etc auxiliary vessel which means for 14500 km 1 vessel in the same manner Pakistan need total 37~37 vessel to cover 550000 square km area comps of frigate submarine and FAC to deter any aggression from India along with destroyer .


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## Basel

sathya said:


> requirements based on any calculations basel?



It is an assumption based on economics as PN can't afford a large fleet and all will be divided into 3 PN commands if I m not wrong so you can guess the numbers.

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## Basel

monitor said:


> India for their 2.5 million square km sea area having total 175~185 vessel of all category from frigate to tug boat etc auxiliary vessel which means for 14500 km 1 vessel in the same manner Pakistan need total 37~37 vessel to cover 550000 square km area comps of frigate submarine and FAC to deter any aggression from India along with destroyer .



I only include main surface combat vessels in it not other assets. PN will need many task forces to handle defensive and offensive ops.


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## Zarvan

zaid butt said:


> man navy officials know better than us they are doing well
> current fleet is enough beside submarines
> 16 submarines must


Mr who told you that Navy lack funds other wise they themselves want more ships and FAC


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## zaid butt

Zarvan said:


> Mr who told you that Navy lack funds other wise they themselves want more ships and FAC



thats what i am saying they know better than us 
what to do and how to do


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## Zarvan

zaid butt said:


> thats what i am saying they know better than us
> what to do and how to do


I am saying when we get more funds than we can go for more


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## zaid butt

Zarvan said:


> I am saying when we get more funds than we can go for more


yes why not 
after all navy plays a graet role in a war


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## black-hawk_101

Is PN gaining orders for Azmat Class?


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## kaku1

monitor said:


> India for their 2.5 million square km sea area having total 175~185 vessel of all category from frigate to tug boat etc auxiliary vessel which means for 14500 km 1 vessel in the same manner Pakistan need total 37~37 vessel to cover 550000 square km area comps of frigate submarine and FAC to deter any aggression from India along with destroyer .


Navy main capital ship is not for coastal protection bro. 

BTW, did you know anything about the fire punch of newest Indian destroyers and frigates,

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## monitor

kaku1 said:


> Navy main capital ship is not for coastal protection bro.
> 
> BTW, did you know anything about the fire punch of newest Indian destroyers and frigates,



what i now the fire power of your fleet is huge compare to Pakistan so Pakistan need some big capital ship with decent air defence ssytem .


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## kaku1

monitor said:


> what i now the fire power of your fleet is huge compare to Pakistan so Pakistan need some big capital ship with decent air defence ssytem .


Any Recommendation?


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## monitor

kaku1 said:


> Any Recommendation?


Type 54A /Type 54B right at this moment in future TF-2000 and if possible Chinese type 53 destroyer on lease and try to get Type 55 destroyer .


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## kaku1

monitor said:


> Type 54A /Type 54B right at this moment in future TF-2000 and if possible Chinese type 53 destroyer on lease and try to get Type 55 destroyer .



No, country in world. and again saying no country in world, no matter how much good friend you are. Provide there latest destroyers to other navy.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaku1 said:


> No, country in world. and again saying no country in world, no matter how much good friend you are. Provide there latest destroyers to other navy.



Nor do they give nukes? yet indians say they we got our nukes from China? hmm..


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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nor do they give nukes? yet indians say they we got our nukes from China? hmm..



I am not in mood of troll.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaku1 said:


> I am not in mood of troll.


... 
Im not trolling... considering the history and military cooperation between Pak and China .. i doubt China will refuse.


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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> ...
> Im not trolling... considering the history and military cooperation between Pak and China .. i doubt China will refuse.



So, you accepting that CHina provided the nuke and missile tech., or sometime a whole readymade bomb to Pak?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaku1 said:


> So, you accepting that CHina provided the nuke and missile tech., or sometime a whole readymade bomb to Pak?



comprehension issues?


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## 592257001

kaku1 said:


> So, you accepting that CHina provided the nuke and missile tech., or sometime a whole readymade bomb to Pak?



Funny how you can believe that the Russians would lend its nuclear sub to India and China won't do the same for Pakistan. I guess in your mind, the Sino-Pak relationship is not as solid as Indo-Russian relationship?! I suggest you have your logic checked by a mental health profession.

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## Echo_419

592257001 said:


> Funny how you can believe that the Russians would lend its nuclear sub to India and China won't do the same for Pakistan. I guess in your mind, the Sino-Pak relationship is not as solid as Indo-Russian relationship?! I suggest you have your logic checked by a mental health profession.



Russians took 1$ Billion for the lease for a period of 10 years can Pakistan afford the same


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## 592257001

Echo_419 said:


> Russians took 1$ Billion for the lease for a period of 10 years can Pakistan afford the same


What makes you think the Chinese would charge Pakistan the same price? Unless you are delirious about the nature of Russia's arms' deals with India, and truly believes that the offered price is indicative for an "Alliance". Then you would know China has never, and would never treat Pakistan the same way that Russia handles India.

If the Chinese leadership sees PN having a SSBN/SSN as some thing that would advance Chinese interest in the region (or to promote region stability by evening the odds between Indo-Pakistan military power), than I see no reason why the Chinese wouldn't offer a lease to the PN even free of charge. Since the Chinese is not milking Pakistan for its money nor could it not afford a gifted SSBN like modifying the pretty much retired Type 094. 

When was the last time India received a $12 million interest-free military loan from Russia, like the one that China has just offered to Pakistan?

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## Echo_419

592257001 said:


> What makes you think the Chinese would charge Pakistan the same price? Unless you are delirious about the nature of Russia's arms' deals with India, and truly believes that the offered price is indicative for an "Alliance". Then you would know China has never, and would never treat Pakistan the same way that Russia handles India.
> 
> If the Chinese leadership sees PN having a SSBN/SSN as some thing that would advance Chinese interest in the region (or to promote region stability by evening the odds between Indo-Pakistan military power), than I see no reason why the Chinese wouldn't offer a lease to the PN even free of charge. Since the Chinese is not milking Pakistan for its money nor could it not afford a gifted SSBN like modifying the pretty much retired Type 094.
> 
> When was the last time India received a $12 million interest-free military loan from Russia, like the one that China has just offered to Pakistan?



1st we don't need soft loans or Aids for weapon purchases & yes I know instead of having a relationship status of 'Equals' like Russia & India.You guys have a Aid giver & aid receiver relationship 

2nd if you start by giving free nuke subs to our arch rivial what makes you think we will not do the same

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## 592257001

Echo_419 said:


> 1st we don't need soft loans or Aids for weapon purchases & yes I know instead of having a relationship status of 'Equals' like Russia & India.You guys have a Aid giver & aid receiver relationship
> 
> 2nd if you start by giving free nuke subs to our arch rivial what makes you think we will not do the same




Funny just how much you derailed from your initial argument of "can Pakistan afford the same" Seems like you finally accepted the fact that Pakistan doesn't have to get pay (or ripped off rather) the same way Indians do. 

Secondly, go ahead with giving away your sole Nuclear Sub to some arch rival of China, oh wait, it's not even yet commissioned!  And...even if India is delirious enough to give away its nuclear sub, which "Arch rival" of China would DARE to accept it? Japan? Well then that would be a serious breach of its post-WWII treaty and making you guys as much a "terrorist state" as Japan. Vietnam? You can then be sure all of its ports would be wiped long before your sub makes it there. Not to mention it would also be a breech of non-proliferation of nuclear arms to a non-nuclear state, making India into a "terrorist state" again.


The sole purpose of a Chinese leased SSBN would be to give Pakistan a more robust/comprehensive 2nd strike capability, and would/should only be done so after India has developed its sea-borne 2nd strike capability to ensure regional stability, much like the same way when Pakistan came up with its nuclear deterrence back in the 90s soon after the Indians gained such capability.

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## kaku1

592257001 said:


> Funny how you can believe that the Russians would lend its nuclear sub to India and China won't do the same for Pakistan. I guess in your mind, the Sino-Pak relationship is not as solid as Indo-Russian relationship?! I suggest you have your logic checked by a mental health profession.


Are you idiot or what? In my whole life I didnt seen the biggest idiot then you? You have any obsession problem?

See, the discussion, before jumping to any discussion.


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## 592257001

kaku1 said:


> Are you idiot or what? In my whole life I didnt seen the biggest idiot then you? You have any obsession problem?
> 
> See, the discussion, before jumping to any discussion.


As a Psy.D, I am fairly certain I am not suffering from any obsession compulsive disorder. You on the other hand, continues to troll in the Pak and BD subsection of the forum with a passion, With your misguided logic and broken In-glish.



kaku1 said:


> Are you idiot or what? In my whole life I didnt seen the biggest idiot then you? You have any obsession problem?
> 
> See, the discussion, before jumping to any discussion.



And for the record, I have only responded after seeing your discussion. And I'm not the one who resorted to calling people 'idiots' when I fail to win an argument.


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## kaku1

592257001 said:


> As a Pys.D, I am fairly certain I am not suffering from any obsession compulsive disorder. You on the other hand, continues to troll in the Pak and BD subsection of the forum with a passion, With your misguided logic and broken In-glish.



Are you a moderator? Okey, start whining, and report me to mods.

Thank You.



592257001 said:


> And for the record, I have only responded after seeing your discussion. And I'm not the one who resorted to calling people 'idiots' when I fail to win an argument.



Seen? Where the hell nuke sub arrived in the discussion ?


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## 592257001

kaku1 said:


> Are you a moderator? Okey, start whining, and report me to mods.
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> 
> 
> Seen? Where the hell nuke sub arrived in the discussion ?


Right when you started you detailed the topic when you started talking about The 'the fire punch' of Indian destroyers and frigates and Pakistan nukes and missile tech.


----------



## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

HAIDER said:


> Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the Chief Guest at the launching ceremony of the 1st Fast Attack Craft (Missile) being built for Pakistan Navy here at Xingang Shipyard, Tianjin, China.
> 
> He said that the project of Fast Attack Craft (Missile) construction represents a quantum leap, not only in Defence Production in naval Sector of Pakistan, but also will meet the long standing operational requirement of Pakistan Navy for the Fast Attack Crafts.
> 
> AZMAT Class Fast Attack Craft (Missile) has a crew of 12 to 14 sailors which is less than half that of similar FAC(M). Each FAC(M) will cost of around $50 million each.
> 
> PNS AZMAT is speculated to be a 500-600 ton, 60-meter Fast Attack Craft (Missile) which will be equipped with eight C-802A/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles.
> 
> First Fast Attack Craft (Missile) will be called AZMAT FAC(M) and it is scheduled to be delivered to Pakistan Navy Fleet by April 2012. These ships will be known as AZMAT Class FAC(M)s in service with Pakistan Navy.
> 
> Chief of Naval Staff said that induction of Missile Crafts will supplement Pakistan Navys warfare capabilties He cherished the hard work put in by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSOC) and Pakistan Navy team in realizing the construction of the ship in a short time.
> 
> Admiral Noman Bashir said, Pak-China relationship is unique and does not draw any parallel in the world. This relationship over the years has matured in all fields, particularly in defence. He said that production of the second Fast Attack Craft (Missile) in Pakistan will also be accomplished with the active help of our Chinese friends.
> 
> *AZMAT Fast Attack Craft (Missile) is equipped with C802A Surface-to-Surface Anti-Ship Missiles which has a range of 180 kilometers. AZMAT FAC(M) uses latest stealthy features to avoide detection from long ranges. force. Admiral Noman Bashir said that AZMAT FAC(M) is equipped with the high tech weapons and sensors to preform extremely versatile missions.
> 
> *
> When China says a ship is launched means is the ship is almost ready. This ship will be handed to Pakistani brothers half years later (April, 2012) as scheduled.


It will surely strengthen Pakistan Navy...


----------



## XYON

Are these FAC's armored against 7.62 or 0.50 calibers?


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## Viper0011.

Ulla said:


> *For the close-air-defence all Pakistani FAC are equipped with a combination of Mistral and Anza I Missiles, all western Navys are using the same tactic for their FAC* (like you can see in the pictures):
> 
> View attachment 79783
> View attachment 79782
> View attachment 79785



That's old school. You need CIWS on both ends, its a must have and fits the space. The old school machine guns are good against the pirate boats. But not against the incoming missiles. 
Plus, you need short range SAMS. There is room for that in this baby as well. The short range SAMS will need to be supported by an area denial system, preferably through a couple of destroyers, with backup around one of the Islands in Karachi and then Gawader. 
The Pakistani military is in dire need of long range and medium range SAMS that can be produced locally. That at this point should be one of the highest priority. The economy is on track to grow so investments can be discussed now for a 2-3 year down the road JV or local assembly of interceptor missiles, radars kits, etc.



Ra'ad said:


> It is derived from the word: "Dehshat gard". A dehshat gard is a terrorist. So the boat is called dehshat meaning: terroroost, or simply a roost that spreads terror.



Someone from PN explained to me what the word "dehshat" means. It means "Fear of Might" of something. Not exactly the terror you are trying to explain. Then may be I don't know as I speak Urdu and Hindu, but not fluent in it.



Basel said:


> It is an assumption based on economics as PN can't afford a large fleet and all will be divided into 3 PN commands if I m not wrong so you can guess the numbers.



These ships locally built with short range SAMS, CIWS and backed up by an aria denial system provide huge force multiplication capability. And in large numbers, can effectively defend and put a threat to anyone trying to venture out, supported by some larger destroyers and a decent fleet of submarines (12-16).

And you are right. PN will have three commands. These three commands will include areas of influence like:
1) International Seas around the trade routes
2) Trade route to Karachi from the Arabian ocean
3) Trade route to Gawader from the Arabian and Indian ocean

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## wiseone2

592257001 said:


> Funny just how much you derailed from your initial argument of "can Pakistan afford the same" Seems like you finally accepted the fact that Pakistan doesn't have to get pay (or ripped off rather) the same way Indians do.
> 
> Secondly, go ahead with giving away your sole Nuclear Sub to some arch rival of China, oh wait, it's not even yet commissioned!  And...even if India is delirious enough to give away its nuclear sub, which "Arch rival" of China would DARE to accept it? Japan? Well then that would be a serious breach of its post-WWII treaty and making you guys as much a "terrorist state" as Japan. Vietnam? You can then be sure all of its ports would be wiped long before your sub makes it there. Not to mention it would also be a breech of non-proliferation of nuclear arms to a non-nuclear state, making India into a "terrorist state" again.
> 
> 
> The sole purpose of a Chinese leased SSBN would be to give Pakistan a more robust/comprehensive 2nd strike capability, and would/should only be done so after India has developed its sea-borne 2nd strike capability to ensure regional stability, much like the same way when Pakistan came up with its nuclear deterrence back in the 90s soon after the Indians gained such capability.



China does not have the same expertise Russia has with respect to nuclear powered submarines. China is not in a position to offer a submarine anytime in the near future.

Why would Pakistan need a second strike capability ? Your land based nukes seem to deter India. In fact China herself does not have a naval 2nd strike capability against America or Russia. India is getting it to deter China not Pakistan.


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## black-hawk_101

I think it was quite clear that PN had a clear requirement of about 12-15 Azmat Class FACs but not funds; similar to 12 F-22Ps.


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## 592257001

wiseone2 said:


> China does not have the same expertise Russia has with respect to nuclear powered submarines. China is not in a position to offer a submarine anytime in the near future.
> 
> Why would Pakistan need a second strike capability ? Your land based nukes seem to deter India. In fact China herself does not have a naval 2nd strike capability against America or Russia. India is getting it to deter China not Pakistan.



Of course "China doesn't have naval based 2nd strike capability against America or Russia."





Chinese SSBNs don't carry any JL-2 missiles in their tubes or any other armaments when engaged in Combat Deterrence Patrols. The PLAN made them purely to satisfy the desire of military fanboys in China. 

Whereas it is a well-known fact that Indian subs carry quite a punch, as indicated by the explosive power demonstrated in port~

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## fatman17

2 additional Azmat class FAC will be delivered during 2016-17 bringing the total to 4 of the type.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> 2 additional Azmat class FAC will be delivered during 2016-17 bringing the total to 4 of the type.



Any news release or just internal info


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> Any news release or just internal info



It was internal and also recently mentioned by SIPRI

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## fatman17

The planned budget is for 8 subject to funds availability

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The planned budget is for 8 subject to funds availability


Sir jee
built locally or delivered by our friends?
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir jee
> built locally or delivered by our friends?
> Araz



50-50 between KSEW and chinese shipyards

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> 2 additional Azmat class FAC will be delivered during 2016-17 bringing the total to 4 of the type.


sir jee its good idea ???

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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> 2 additional Azmat class FAC will be delivered during 2016-17 bringing the total to 4 of the type.


Sir, any changes in specs, or it will be 100% identical to the previous one?


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## black-hawk_101

I think PN should ask the budget of total 12-16 of these.


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## fatman17

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, any changes in specs, or it will be 100% identical to the previous one?



Don't know of any such. PN is satisfied with the existing.

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## Sneaker

592257001 said:


> Of course "China doesn't have naval based 2nd strike capability against America or Russia."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese SSBNs don't carry any JL-2 missiles in their tubes or any other armaments when engaged in Combat Deterrence Patrols. The PLAN made them purely to satisfy the desire of military fanboys in China.
> 
> Whereas it is a well-known fact that Indian subs carry quite a punch, as indicated by the explosive power demonstrated in port~


This isn't second strike... it is third strike and out...
Chinese submarine 361 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Don't know of any such. PN is satisfied with the existing.



I was thinking the same, a manpad launch place or position would be nice, for a low low air defence deterrence ! Those posters who argue that manpad is outdated have no clue about airdefence warfare ! I have posted that stuff also in the past, May be some members know more about this issue.....






That is a simple solution, which dont need much space at the ship !





another option, computer-automatic controlled Mistral launchers:

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## aziqbal

The only country that can provide modern and affordable ships to the navy is China 

We can forget about any other platform

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## araz

aziqbal said:


> The only country that can provide modern and affordable ships to the navy is China
> 
> We can forget about any other platform


FINALLY!!!! A man who states facts rather than indulging in fantasies. Congratulations Sir. You are a rare breed.
Kindest regards
Araz


----------



## MastanKhan

aziqbal said:


> The only country that can provide modern and affordable ships to the navy is China
> 
> We can forget about any other platform



Sir,

It is not as simple as that-----. A couple of years ago china told Pakistan to take a hike----they were tired of helping and pak politicians stealing----. 4 years ago the americans said the same thing---.

South china seas issue started on one side----ISIS issues popped up on the other side----now both these countries are selling again----from china we have a carte blanche----from the U S we could have had the same if we could have delivered 3 to 4 div of military to Saudi Arabia and emirates---.

Options with germans are open as well and the French might be back in action once they come out of the trance of having been molested and DRY raped by the indians----.

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## black-hawk_101

How many of these FAC being planned?


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## Indus Falcon

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is not as simple as that-----. A couple of years ago china told Pakistan to take a hike----they were tired of helping and pak politicians stealing----. 4 years ago the americans said the same thing---.
> 
> South china seas issue started on one side----ISIS issues popped up on the other side----now both these countries are selling again----from china we have a carte blanche----from the U S we could have had the same if we could have delivered 3 to 4 div of military to Saudi Arabia and emirates---.
> 
> Options with germans are open as well and the French might be back in action once they come out of the trance of having been molested and DRY raped by the indians----.



Well said, Bro

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## black-hawk_101

What is cost of the Azmat which has been constructed @ KS&EW?


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## black-hawk_101

List of active Pakistan Navy ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

two more Azmat are under construction and may be 2 more too after this.......


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## black-hawk_101

The 6 FAC China has commiited with Pakistan are Azmat class or anything else? If it is Azmat then surely it will be produced in Pakistan.


----------



## Basel

araz said:


> When you cant have something you do without it. You will rely on CIWS to shoot down any approaching missiles ,but cannot do much against multiple attacks



True, that is why PN should extend the size of Azmat class boats and add FM-3000 SAMS in VLS configuration which comes with AESA radar, search radar should be upgraded too, in NCW environment it will create 2nd tier after MR/LR SAMS like LY-80E or HQ-9 in future.

China unveils new FM-3000 short-to-medium range air defense missile system at AirShow China 1911142 | AirShow China 2014 Zhuhai news coverage report UK | Defence and security military army exhibition 2014

Edit :

Also is it better to get these CIWS from Russia with possible upgrades for our Azmat class MB and other surface assets, along with FM-3000 it will be good air defence for MBs in extreme hostile and unfavourable conditions.

Kashtan CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Quwa

Basel said:


> True, that is why PN should extend the size of Azmat class boats and add FM-3000 SAMS in VLS configuration which comes with AESA radar, search radar should be upgraded too, in NCW environment it will create 2nd tier after MR/LR SAMS like LY-80E or HQ-9 in future.
> 
> China unveils new FM-3000 short-to-medium range air defense missile system at AirShow China 1911142 | AirShow China 2014 Zhuhai news coverage report UK | Defence and security military army exhibition 2014
> 
> Edit :
> 
> Also is it better to get these CIWS from Russia with possible upgrades for our Azmat class MB and other surface assets, along with FM-3000 it will be good air defence for MBs in extreme hostile and unfavourable conditions.
> 
> Kashtan CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


At that point the Navy would be better off just investing in a corvette design, like the 1500 ton one on offer by CSOC. What you're asking for can easily be configured onto this kind of platform, and in turn, still have room for upgrades and additions in the future. We could also use this design as a basis for an OPV, or maybe buy it as an OPV that can - in times of war - be transformed into a proper multi-mission corvette.

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## Penguin

aziqbal said:


> The only country that can provide modern and affordable ships to the navy is China
> 
> We can forget about any other platform


South Korea?


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## Penguin

Azmat class could well benefit from installation of one or two remote contral MANPADs stations. E.g. the Russian Gibka, the French Sadral or Simbad-RC or the Turkish BORA Naval Pedestal Mounted Air Defense System. These typically are bolted onto the deck and require no deck-penetration.

Gibka













Mistral launchers Sadral and Simbad RC










Aselsan Bora naval PMS





Or swap out the front twin cannons for a mount like the Oto Melara Mod 584 MARLIN-WS and slap on some MANPADS

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## Penguin

Using AK-630M1-2 Duet could beef up rear facing firepower





It should also be possible to fit some MANPADs or ATGW to the existing 30mm gatling. See e.g. Ak630 with *Vikhr-k*





Ukraine offers *Arbalet-K short range shipborne air-defense missile system





Ukroboronprom Supplied Missile Systems "Arbalet-K"’ And "Bar’er-Vk" to Navy of Kazakhstan
*

Good, relatively low cost options!

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## Penguin

IDEF 2015: Aselsan displays laser-Igla concept | Defence blog

Relative size (Aselsan Stamp is a lot bigger)




Based on




Exhibition Indo-Defence-2012 in Jakarta. Defense | Encyclopedia of safety

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## Inception-06

Penguin said:


> IDEF 2015: Aselsan displays laser-Igla concept | Defence blog
> 
> Relative size (Aselsan Stamp is a lot bigger)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exhibition Indo-Defence-2012 in Jakarta. Defense | Encyclopedia of safety




I don't know why the Pakistani Navy does not give the air defence of his ships more priority, may be its a question of Budge, but compared to the other Bullshit what the Navy have bought for example the P-3C Orions and ATRS this and all the ships are useless without a strong air defence !


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## Zarvan

aziqbal said:


> The only country that can provide modern and affordable ships to the navy is China
> 
> We can forget about any other platform


Sorry but now you can add Turkey in that category also @araz


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## black-hawk_101

So a total of 6 Azmat FACs are planned?


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Sorry but now you can add Turkey in that category also @araz


Modern Yes---- Affordable No. This is where the crunch lies. Turkish Projects have had to be delayed abandoned due to their high costs. 
A


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## Zarvan

araz said:


> Modern Yes---- Affordable No. This is where the crunch lies. Turkish Projects have had to be delayed abandoned due to their high costs.
> A


Turkish projects are successfully running


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Turkish projects are successfully running


Sorry for being unclear. It is not the Turkish projects but funds from Pakistani side which inspite of liking the products have had to be delayed /abandoned by Pakistan due to lack of resources. MRTP boats and MEKO frigates come to mind and ANKA Project procurement being delayed due to lack of funds. This will become a problem in the China equation as well, as Chinese products are becoming more expensive as well.
A

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## Quwa

araz said:


> Sorry for being unclear. It is not the Turkish projects but funds from Pakistani side which inspite of liking the products have had to be delayed /abandoned by Pakistan due to lack of resources. MRTP boats and MEKO frigates come to mind and ANKA Project procurement being delayed due to lack of funds. This will become a problem in the China equation as well, as Chinese products are becoming more expensive as well.
> A


Pakistan might have gotten lucky with MILGEM considering that it was suspended for some time in 2013 due to regulatory and compliance concerns, though the program has now back on track.

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## Zarbe Momin

Saqr said:


> Pakistan might have gotten lucky with MILGEM considering that it was suspended for some time in 2013 due to regulatory and compliance concerns, though the program has now back on track.


Why azmat class fast attack boats are not connected with automated radar controlled TV IR Systems.


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## Inception-06

Quwa said:


> Pakistan might have gotten lucky with MILGEM considering that it was suspended for some time in 2013 due to regulatory and compliance concerns, though the program has now back on track.



How many Azmat are in service, are being build and planned ?


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## araz

Quwa said:


> Pakistan might have gotten lucky with MILGEM considering that it was suspended for some time in 2013 due to regulatory and compliance concerns, though the program has now back on track.


Teething problems are common with every project.
A


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## Tank131

Ulla said:


> How many Azmat are in service, are being build and planned ?



So far only 4 are planned. After that, supposedly 6 type 022 fac from china (with some made in Pakistan.



araz said:


> Teething problems are common with every project.
> A



Thats true, but in MILGEMs case it adds nothing to PNs capabilities. TF-100 on the other hand will. It could be acquired with CAAM-ER if ESSM was not available, if pakistan were interested, but this is still a far ways away, but with turkey, local construction is possible which would help speed up the process given turkey is still waiting on Ada (MILGEM) corvettes to complete construction.

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## syed_yusuf

4-8 Ada class will be a good capability boosters specially of PN can add Umkonaut ER IR VLS to it. They are small and easy to operate with considerable stealth.


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## The Eagle

*Fast Attack Craft (Missile)*





KS&EW is presently constructing FAC(M) No 3, third vessel of Azmat class missile craft. In the past, KS&EW has undertaken construction of FAC(M)-2.

This ship is a state of the art, multi mission corvette having a length and breadth of 63 m and 8.8 m, respectively. The design draught of the ship is 2.46 m and displacement of 560 tons. The ship has maximum speed of 30 knots and a range of 1000 Nautical Miles. This ship is propelled by 04 Diesel Engines, 04 Propulsion Shafts with Fixed Pitch Propellers. The ship carries surface to surface missiles, 25 mm gun, CIWS, surface search and tracking radars. It has a stealthier design with state of the art combat system. The ship is being built under Chinese Classification Society Rules.


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## Incog_nito

How many PN is looking to procure?

I have heard over this forum that the final number might reach to 10-12?


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## nomi007

https://defence.pk/threads/ships-that-change-pakistan-into-a-castle.455199/


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> How many PN is looking to procure?
> 
> I have heard over this forum that the final number might reach to 10-12?


Thus far it's 4. 

That said, four of the six patrol boats the PSMA had ordered seem to be derived from the Azmat-class FAC design.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Thus far it's 4.
> 
> That said, four of the six patrol boats the PSMA had ordered seem to be derived from the Azmat-class FAC design.


This has been what i have been saying all along. Why change the design when it is a good one. Incidentally is the 1500 ton craft an off shoot of the 056?
A

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## ABBASIA

In today Dawn 29th december there is design of new fast attack missile craft being designed by maritime complex technologies complex and steel cutting ceremony has been performed at KSEW. Can anyone provide further detail into the project.


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## Cornered Tiger

ABBASIA said:


> In today Dawn 29th december there is design of new fast attack missile craft being designed by maritime complex technologies complex and steel cutting ceremony has been performed at KSEW. Can anyone provide further detail into the project.



https://defence.pk/threads/fac-m-no-4-designed-indigenously-by-maritime-technologies-complex.469603/


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## ABBASIA

Cornered Tiger said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/fac-m-no-4-designed-indigenously-by-maritime-technologies-complex.469603/



Link is broken


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## Penguin

Zarvan said:


> Sorry but now you can add Turkey in that category also @araz


South Korea too

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## Tank131

Penguin said:


> South Korea too



But question is would they and on terms Pakistan could afford. Rather than the whole system, I would take subsystems like the K-SAAM quadpacked missile on a Turkish vessel (may be more affordable).


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> But question is would they and on terms Pakistan could afford. Rather than the whole system, I would take subsystems like the K-SAAM quadpacked missile on a Turkish vessel (may be more affordable).


The main issue with the K-SAAM - assuming ROK agrees to sell (plausible) - is that we have no idea of how strong they'll be in the face of pressure to cut off after sale support or stock replenishment. We have some background on the ability or willingness of the French, Italians and British to work through pressure or issues: We know the British are bad and the French and Italians are OK, though the Italians are willing to push it a little further to "good." One way to get around this issue would be to get the after sale and replenishment element via ToT (for localized shelf life restoration) and large missile stocks.

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## Tank131

Pakistan, I think, has gotten the message that it needs to look out for number one, especially when dealing with countries not named China, Turkey, and even KSA (oil and $$ support). These are the only nations that routinely have maintained strong relations with Pakistan despite poor economy or issues regarding nukes. That being said, I think when it comes to S. Korean weapons, Pakistan can maintain large stockpiles or even pursue local manufacturing though ToT. Seekers (if there is a downward turn in relations) can come from numerous sources if necessary, but manufacturing the actual missile and its foldable parts (for quad pack) will be a huge step forward or Pakistan's R&D community.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Pakistan, I think, has gotten the message that it needs to look out for number one, especially when dealing with countries not named China, Turkey, and even KSA (oil and $$ support). These are the only nations that routinely have maintained strong relations with Pakistan despite poor economy or issues regarding nukes. That being said, I think when it comes to S. Korean weapons, Pakistan can maintain large stockpiles or even pursue local manufacturing though ToT. Seekers (if there is a downward turn in relations) can come from numerous sources if necessary, but manufacturing the actual missile and its foldable parts (for quad pack) will be a huge step forward or Pakistan's R&D community.


Agreed. Pakistan really needs to build competency in rocket technology, especially considering the large number of vital applications the technology core has on land, sea, and air. How that happens, e.g. collaboration with South Africa, China, and/or South Korea, can be determined in time, but a plan actually needs to be in place. I'd focus on two areas: rockets and micro air-breathing propulsion (for cruise missiles).

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## Penguin

Tank131 said:


> But question is would they and on terms Pakistan could afford. Rather than the whole system, I would take subsystems like the K-SAAM quadpacked missile on a Turkish vessel (may be more affordable).


Why wouldn't they?


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## Tank131

Penguin said:


> Why wouldn't they?



Depending on the situation, they could face significant diplomatic pressure from India and US, but more likely the main reason Pakistan may not acquire vessels from the is cost. While it doesnt hurt to investigate, they may not be as amenable to extend credit lines to PN that China and Turkey may be. I would still pursue the K-SAAM over everything other than CAMM given its quad-packability.


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## Penguin

Tank131 said:


> Depending on the situation, they could face significant diplomatic pressure from India and US, but more likely the main reason Pakistan may not acquire vessels from the is cost. While it doesnt hurt to investigate, they may not be as amenable to extend credit lines to PN that China and Turkey may be. I would still pursue the K-SAAM over everything other than CAMM given its quad-packability.


Like RoK lets itself be pressured by India. US? Maybe. But in the area of defence industry, there is significant cooperation with European firm, even Russia. RoK is no US puppet in this respect, see sale to e.g. Indonesia, Philippines..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

K-SAAM would be interesting. Is this different from the KM-SAM and Cheolmae-2?


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## MystryMan

If PN goes for Turkish FAC-55 then Type-22 FAC from China will be dropped or both fulfill different roles?


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## Tank131

Unclear. The type022s would be 2nd as they arent in production anymore, so they may be very cheap.


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## Windjammer



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## aziqbal

3rd Azmat class under going outfitting at Karachi shipyard

The anti ship canisters have not been fitted yet aparently they have arrived from China

The Middle units are 2 x landing craft mechanised

And to the left is the replenishment tanker

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## The Eagle

aziqbal said:


> 3rd Azmat class under going outfitting at Karachi shipyard
> 
> The anti ship canisters have not been fitted yet aparently they have arrived from China
> 
> The Middle units are 2 x landing craft mechanised
> 
> And to the left is the replenishment tanker



Sir, is this an old Picture because, IMO, the same (3rd Azmat Class) was launched in September/October, 2016 back then. Also, 2xLanding crafts were handed over in last April, 2016.

Edit: Launched means sea trials IMO.

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## Incog_nito

It's better to have anti-ship ballistic missiles than FAC.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nice development with the fast attack boats , just 4-5 years ago we had no such ships. However we have managed to attain a small inventory of ships by local effort and some collaboration.

A nice addition to these ships would certainly be a CWIS and 2-3 missile pods for anti air defence likely above the deck

Shou “Hunter” II Air Defense (Obviously this is more of a mechanized air defence solution but along the same line) does not takes much space gives some bite to the Fast attack ships

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## Tank131

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Nice development with the fast attack boats , just 4-5 years ago we had no such ships. However we have managed to attain a small inventory of ships by local effort and some collaboration.
> 
> A nice addition to these ships would certainly be a CWIS and 2-3 missile pods for anti air defence likely above the deck
> 
> Shou “Hunter” II Air Defense (Obviously this is more of a mechanized air defence solution but along the same line) does not takes much space gives some bite to the Fast attack ships



Azmats have a ciws (one AK 630 on the rear of the superstructure). I have however advocated that the load out should be retooled to remove the main gun (dual 23mm cannon) amd replace it with a CIWS such as AK 630 or Type 730 etc (like type 022), while the current CIWS be replaced with an 8+ cell FL-3000N system. Replace its radar with something like smart s mk2 or a TRS-3D /16-ES and you have quite a potent ship.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Azmat is a nice starter platform , if we could even fit one system for air defence such as post I posted above 3-4 SAM etc I suppose it would be reasonable upgrade

But azmat is really a base model type project about 25 meter short of ideal size

I suppose can't complain , at least Navy is growing modestly

While the VLS type solution does not look possible for this platform , I can see if we can added 3-4 Missile (external launchers) to offer some protection against incoming air targets.


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## Falcon26

With the 8 submarines, the MILGEM & recently inducted petrol boats, can someone make a list of equipment in the procurement pipeline for the Pakistan navy

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## Readerdefence

Tank131 said:


> Azmats have a ciws (one AK 630 on the rear of the superstructure). I have however advocated that the load out should be retooled to remove the main gun (dual 23mm cannon) amd replace it with a CIWS such as AK 630 or Type 730 etc (like type 022), while the current CIWS be replaced with an 8+ cell FL-3000N system. Replace its radar with something like smart s mk2 or a TRS-3D /16-ES and you have quite a potent ship.


Hi will azmat been able to carry these changes 
Thx for the reply


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Falcon26 said:


> With the 8 submarines, the MILGEM & recently inducted petrol boats, can someone make a list of equipment in the procurement pipeline for the Pakistan navy




Well future purchases will only be confirmed once official statement comes out.

At present only thing confirmed are the Submarine package 

On going Azmat class fast attack missile boats project

Potential Corvette project , down the road with Turkey

Few coast guard ships for port security (2 Attained, 2 more being manufactured)

Our own indegnious Submarine research project (long term project)

Collaboration with friendly countries is ever evovling and once progress is made on items such knowledge is released at appropriate time

Considering the progress we made with Azmat class , it would not be suprising if we make our own Frigate design down the line

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## Falcon26

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well future purchases will only be confirmed once official statement comes out.
> 
> At present only thing confirmed are the Submarine package
> 
> On going Azmat class fast attack missile boats project
> 
> Potential Corvette project , down the road with Turkey
> 
> Few coast guard ships for port security (2 Attained, 2 more being manufactured)
> 
> Our own indegnious Submarine research project (long term project)
> 
> Collaboration with friendly countries is ever evovling and once progress is made on items such knowledge is released at appropriate time
> 
> Considering the progress we made with Azmat class , it would not be suprising if we make our own Frigate design down the line



Thanks.

So much more procurement activity than we have seen for the last decade

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Falcon26 said:


> With the 8 submarines, the MILGEM & recently inducted petrol boats, can someone make a list of equipment in the procurement pipeline for the Pakistan navy





AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well future purchases will only be confirmed once official statement comes out.
> 
> At present only thing confirmed are the Submarine package
> 
> On going Azmat class fast attack missile boats project
> 
> Potential Corvette project , down the road with Turkey
> 
> Few coast guard ships for port security (2 Attained, 2 more being manufactured)
> 
> Our own indegnious Submarine research project (long term project)
> 
> Collaboration with friendly countries is ever evovling and once progress is made on items such knowledge is released at appropriate time
> 
> Considering the progress we made with Azmat class , it would not be suprising if we make our own Frigate design down the line



EW capabilities for 90Bs.
New mini SSKs from STM
Naval boats for SSGN

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## Tank131

Readerdefence said:


> Hi will azmat been able to carry these changes
> Thx for the reply



Without doubt it has the space to do so.


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## Readerdefence

Thank you for your reply


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## syed_yusuf

why cant azmat class be as potent as Saar 4.5 of Israel navy


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> why cant azmat class be as potent as Saar 4.5 of Israel navy


One gets what they pay for. The Pakistan Navy bought the Azmat FAC in its configuration due to a severe lack of funding, so it couldn't do much besides the essentials (namely anti-ship warfare). I think, down the line that is, they can configure the Azmat FAC with the FN-3000N point-defence missile-system, a new combat management system, some jamming equipment, etc. It could be made into something fairly close to the Sa'ar 4.5

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One gets what they pay for. The Pakistan Navy bought the Azmat FAC in its configuration due to a severe lack of funding, so it couldn't do much besides the essentials (namely anti-ship warfare). I think, down the line that is, they can configure the Azmat FAC with the FN-3000N point-defence missile-system, a new combat management system, some jamming equipment, etc. It could be made into something fairly close to the Sa'ar 4.5



in my opinion, azmat with saar 4.5 type aggressive capability & in numbers like 8 -12 will form a formidable defense against any intruder into our waters. with advancement in technology, 24 cell FL-3000N and anti ship torpedo could easily be adopted. we can replace and install 30 MM STAMP RWS.


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## rana MRL

Aoa.. I am not a naval expert just watch and read defence thread and news .... from this thread I have also some thought as in thus thread might be already said .... 
Azmat is a 560 ton design now ,,, if MTC make some improvement and iteration in design make it to large as 100-1300 ton keeping this configuartion on large degrees ,, and keeping saar class development in minds ,, azmat class can have formidable punch,, as incorporating VLS or not can put upgraded AshM like zarb more range and lethality then c802 and keeping main gun and CIWS system same and FL 3000N system if I am not wrong is derived from chinese Manpad ,, we have Anza missile if we can make some changes in designand seeker of it can install it 
More importantly about SAM system mid range southafrican Ukhomonto system ,, depth charges 
Sensor and processing system like hamina class ,, outsourcing from chinese or turkish system .. 
Make Azmat as compact and lethal 
Might take time but if will and sone cash it can be done 
These are just my speculation ,,,any suggestion welcome plz no troll and offense ,,,thnx


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## Tank131

Frankly you dont even need to increase its size tremendously. If you just replaced its twin 25mm cannon with an Ak630 or Type 730 CIWS and put a 21 cell FL-3000N where the current AK630 ciws is you would have a ship that packs a very powerfup punch. Add in a better radar like Smart S mk2 or TRS-3D/16-ES which have ranges of 250 amd 200km respectively, you have a very good light corvette which is more heavily armes than F-22P.

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## khanasifm

I wish the navy is listening and making these changes, theses guys do not know anything about naval requirements and weapons systems and should subscribe to the forum

With due respect


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> I wish the navy is listening and making these changes, theses guys do not know anything about naval requirements and weapons systems and should subscribe to the forum
> 
> With due respect


Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.

I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.

@Oscar

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.
> 
> I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.
> 
> @Oscar



Honestly the issue isnt even ASW aircraft. Its more the ability to intercept missiles and naval strike fighters (Mig-29s) which will make short work of PN surface fleet and then the Pakistani coast. The more the fleet gets pushed closer to the coast the less room even the subs have to operate and the easier time ASW aircraft will have hunting the subs

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## The Accountant

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.
> 
> I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.
> 
> @Oscar





Tank131 said:


> Honestly the issue isnt even ASW aircraft. Its more the ability to intercept missiles and naval strike fighters (Mig-29s) which will make short work of PN surface fleet and then the Pakistani coast. The more the fleet gets pushed closer to the coast the less room even the subs have to operate and the easier time ASW aircraft will have hunting the subs



I think the plan of PN is to use submarine as offensive punch to keep our area clear of the enemy ... Remember that with small coastal area and shifting of sea lanes from Karachi to Gawadar force of 11 submarines is huge ... Indian Navy need to come more closer to Pakistan to attack in such a situation our submarine will be the main attack force whereas P8s are of no use in Pakistan's territorial water unless India has complete air superiority and have naval blockade which is difficult to achieve in presence of 11 advance submarines ...

The real threat to Pakistan is from carrier battle group ... If India gets successful in deploying career battle grup within close range of Pakistan territorial water than they can implement naval blockade ... We need to have a clear strategy against carrier battle group ... only chance Pakistan have here is cm400akg ... pakistan needs to get those in numbers ... Furthermore we also need to evaluate if we can deploy some radars and defensive equipments in some island or artificial island at a slight distance from our shores however i am not aware of any such island in Pakistani territorial waters ... Such facility can provide us a significant advantage ...

After submarines PN needs atleast two feavy frigates with advance capabilities andablity to survive on its own even against saturated attacks of supersonic missiles ... And a medium to high altitude SAM ... These two assets will serve to provide much needed air cover to whole of the fleet ...

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> I think the plan of PN is to use submarine as offensive punch to keep our area clear of the enemy ... Remember that with small coastal area and shifting of sea lanes from Karachi to Gawadar force of 11 submarines is huge ... Indian Navy need to come more closer to Pakistan to attack in such a situation our submarine will be the main attack force whereas P8s are of no use in Pakistan's territorial water unless India has complete air superiority and have naval blockade which is difficult to achieve in presence of 11 advance submarines ...
> 
> The real threat to Pakistan is from carrier battle group ... If India gets successful in deploying career battle grup within close range of Pakistan territorial water than they can implement naval blockade ... We need to have a clear strategy against carrier battle group ... only chance Pakistan have here is cm400akg ... pakistan needs to get those in numbers ... Furthermore we also need to evaluate if we can deploy some radars and defensive equipments in some island or artificial island at a slight distance from our shores however i am not aware of any such island in Pakistani territorial waters ... Such facility can provide us a significant advantage ...
> 
> After submarines PN needs atleast two feavy frigates with advance capabilities andablity to survive on its own even against saturated attacks of supersonic missiles ... And a medium to high altitude SAM ... These two assets will serve to provide much needed air cover to whole of the fleet ...



Hi,

If for a smaller space---the number of 11 submarines is huge---then on the reverse----it also gets easier to hunt them in a smaller area as well---.

And you are right about the anti ship missiles---. We need a heavy strike platform for that.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If for a smaller space---the number of 11 submarines is huge---then on the reverse----it also gets easier to hunt them in a smaller area as well---.
> 
> And you are right about the anti ship missiles---. We need a heavy strike platform for that.


I agree with you but my opinion is based on the assumption that objective of Pakistan is to keep sea lanes open .. keep India from Pakistan's terriotrial and other than intelligence gathering and nuclear deterrent there is no conventional aggressive role assigned to submarines hence prime area of operation will be Pakistan own territorial water ... 

Now there is no significant threat to Pakistan submarines other than CBG of india as P8 cannot afford to come close to Pakistan shores even with escort planes as it will put significant threat to P8 from thunders ... aircraft of this size are easy catch for BVR missiles ...

11 submarines can easily handle 8 to 10 frigates and destroyer with advance anti submarine capabilities ... as Pakistan's submarines have multiple warheads and take out surface assets ... the real threat however will be CBG as they are normally in numbers with variety of capabilities including nuclear submarines frigates and destroyer and if any submarines decided to take offence against a single asset it will compromise uts location and rest of the asset of CBG will take out the submarine ... main challenge is to keep CBG away from iur submarine fleet ...

Regarding nuclear role our submarines are with AIP hence they can spend weeks idle waiting for the right time ...submarine with very slow movement are very difficult to detect by any asset if not impossiblw ... submarines are most vulnerable when snorkling or when they are moving at a fast pace which will not be required if submarines are assigned the role of safety of territorial integrity


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## khanasifm

Bottom line Type 21 needs replacement and PN if orders now new ship assuming 1 per year you need 4/5 years unless its like subs some build locally and some come from abroad within few years

Chinese , Turk or may be some used one on urgent basis 

may be short term used one and long term new ??? I guess time will tell

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## Advocate Pakistan

Assalam o alaikum,
New in the posting section, not so in the reading section. Didn't know if these things have been discussed here before as I didn't read all the previous posts.
This will be in reference to Pakistan's ship building industry and thus Navy indirectly.

If only we could get more Perrys and send them through GENESIS. If I am not wrong, some 7 Perrys are still waiting FMS. Talks could be renewed with US.
But it seems the navy has shelved the plans of acquiring Perrys even if it costs a mere penny.
They will only accept U.S. ships if they come free and when they have been handed over to Pakistan.
I do not disagree with the PN here. But we are short of cash, systems, and indigenous naval based missiles. And even if we had all those we don't have enough ship yards for speedy production.
While Chinese, at present it seems can't provide ships within a reasonable time frame as PLAN's demand is huge.

Notice: we signed for F22Ps, relatively simple ships, in 2007 and got the first one almost 2 years later and the fourth one six years later from KS&EW.

On the other hand KS&EW is way too lethargic, be it due to lack of appropriate equipment, manpower, funds or training.
KS&EW is by far only an assembler and that too a highly inefficient, incapable and slow assembler.
BTW, there is nothing wrong in being an assembler but if you are doing it for more than 3-4 decades than you are to be blamed.
Until we have our own capacity the only way to survive is to de-escalate any tensions in the maritime theatre even if such de-escalation requires quid pro quo.

A slight question at the end from seniors. Can anyone tell what about work on any new ship yards in country. There were news of more shipyards at port Qasim and Gawadar during Musharraf's time but nothing since then. If there is a discussion thread on the matter that also gets regularly updated than please guide me to it.


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## The Eagle

Zohaib Advocate said:


> Assalam o alaikum,
> New in the posting section, not so in the reading section. Didn't know if these things have been discussed here before as I didn't read all the previous posts.
> This will be in reference to Pakistan's ship building industry and thus Navy indirectly.
> 
> If only we could get more Perrys and send them through GENESIS. If I am not wrong, some 7 Perrys are still waiting FMS. Talks could be renewed with US.
> But it seems the navy has shelved the plans of acquiring Perrys even if it costs a mere penny.
> They will only accept U.S. ships if they come free and when they have been handed over to Pakistan.
> I do not disagree with the PN here. But we are short of cash, systems, and indigenous naval based missiles. And even if we had all those we don't have enough ship yards for speedy production.
> While Chinese, at present it seems can't provide ships within a reasonable time frame as PLAN's demand is huge.
> 
> Notice: we signed for F22Ps, relatively simple ships, in 2007 and got the first one almost 2 years later and the fourth one six years later from KS&EW.
> 
> On the other hand KS&EW is way too lethargic, be it due to lack of appropriate equipment, manpower, funds or training.
> KS&EW is by far only an assembler and that too a highly inefficient, incapable and slow assembler.
> BTW, there is nothing wrong in being an assembler but if you are doing it for more than 3-4 decades than you are to be blamed.
> Until we have our own capacity the only way to survive is to de-escalate any tensions in the maritime theatre even if such de-escalation requires quid pro quo.
> 
> A slight question at the end from seniors. Can anyone tell what about work on any new ship yards in country. There were news of more shipyards at port Qasim and Gawadar during Musharraf's time but nothing since then. If there is a discussion thread on the matter that also gets regularly updated than please guide me to it.



https://defence.pk/pdf/forums/pakistan-navy.14/

In above mentioned link/Pakistan Navy Section you will find different discussion threads that are updated by members as & when any update is available or to discuss the topic so browse and participate as per subject and your interest. Also, you can use search option with key words for area of interest as well.

Regards,

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## Incog_nito

Instead of FAC, PN should bought some more JF-17s and MPAs. Moreover, increase the numbers of ships for PMSA boats capable of carrying missiles too.


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## Tank131

PMSA 1500t Ships may be capable of fielding missiles during wartime. That being said, MSA vessels are meant as coast guard ships for policing, anti-piracy, anti narcotics, search and rescue. They arent meant to fight in naval conflicts and are for MSA not navy. That being said, Pakistan needs these FAC for EEZ patrol and Litoral water interdiction of enemy naval vessels. They, if provided appropriate air cover in the form of surface based SAMs and land based fighters, can be effective. That being said, Pakistan has 1 sqd of JF-17 dedicated to Naval strike and Naval air cover...too few assets. That is why i have been railing against the notion of watered down milgems in favor of a more substantial, multirole MILGEM-G or chinese solution.

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## Sloth 22

All said and done. 

Apart from Denmark[and the USN's LCS] , no other nation [which operates any OPV] can up arm the vessel during a war. Untill and unless a war will last more than a week. 

You see their [Denmark's ] StanFex Module System is a wonderful thing. 

@Penguin


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## Penguin

Sloth 22 said:


> All said and done.
> 
> Apart from Denmark[and the USN's LCS] , no other nation [which operates any OPV] can up arm the vessel during a war. Untill and unless a war will last more than a week.
> 
> You see their [Denmark's ] StanFex Module System is a wonderful thing.
> 
> @Penguin



Well, not entirely correct. E.g. RN Castle class OPVs (now passed on to Bangladesh) were designed keeping in mind that they would be uparmed in wartime. This is exactly what BN did on receipt of the ships: it added a Chinese 76mm (rather than the originally intended Oto 76mm) and C-701 AShM (rather than e.g. Exocet or Harpoon). I would bet they can mount 2 triple torpedo tubes and support an ASW helo. I'm sure that, in general, modern OPVs are more geared to this than older generation ships used to be.

The questions here
WOULD IT TAKE YARD WORK (i.e. structural change, welding/cutting, etc)
HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE? (how readily available are weapons/sensors to be added, and how long to install > plug-and-play into an existing CDS or to be newly installed/integrated)
MEKO ships should have an advantage here.
Stanflex is exceptional in this respect, but relatively expensive (you have to invest in having more modules than all your ships can mount together at one point in time).

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## Basel

Will this ASW system good to be installed on our FACs or littoral ASW assets as it may be able to provide some protection against AShMs too.






@Penguin

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## khanasifm

F22p has 12 rdc32 anti sub rocket system 34 kg each which can fire similar weapons at longer range 1200-1600 meters plus cy series anti sub rocket assisted torpedo instead of c803 or combination of asrock plus anti ship which are much longer range 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar-class_frigate#/media/File:76mm_Gun.jpg

https://www.google.com/search?q=f22..._AUICSgB&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=RMn-5VzOLejKCM:


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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Will this ASW system good to be installed on our FACs or littoral ASW assets as it may be able to provide some protection against AShMs too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Penguin


Keep in mind this was designed for use in the Baltic, which is relatively rocky and shallow, which can be challenging for ASW torpedo use. I don't see how it has anything to offer in terms of protection against anti-ship missiles: pls elaborate. 

The Elma ASW-600 system is a lightweight multibarrel grenade launcher for use against underwater targets.
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1713
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1713

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## Basel

Penguin said:


> Keep in mind this was designed for use in the Baltic, which is relatively rocky and shallow, which can be challenging for ASW torpedo use. I don't see how it has anything to offer in terms of protection against anti-ship missiles: pls elaborate.
> 
> The Elma ASW-600 system is a lightweight multibarrel grenade launcher for use against underwater targets.
> https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1713



It can deploy Chef or Flare too.

Will this really effective and good for possible ships from Turkey?


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## Blue Marlin

i assume the azmat ship use codad propulsion, how many diesel engines does it have and what make/model are they?


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## Advocate Pakistan

Blue Marlin said:


> i assume the azmat ship use codad propulsion, how many diesel engines does it have and what make/model are they?



Isn't CODAG more suitable for FACs. With the gas engine providing more speed and Sprint than what Diesel engine can?


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## Blue Marlin

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Isn't CODAG more suitable for FACs. With the gas engine providing more speed and Sprint than what Diesel engine can?


yes it is as the diesel engine providing power for cruise speeds and the turbines for high speed.
i highly doubt the azmat has gas turbines, do note just becasue it does not have a turbine engine does not mean its not fast.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Blue Marlin said:


> yes it is as the diesel engine providing power for cruise speeds and the turbines for high speed.
> i highly doubt the azmat has gas turbines, do note just becasue it does not have a turbine engine does not mean its not fast.



http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-missile/

This link here says that Azmat class has four diesel engines. Don't know how much reliable is it.


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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Will this really effective and good for possible ships from Turkey?


I like this: flexible and stealthy launching system. Drawbacks: possible a bit large and heavy. Could fit single unit on a smaller ship, provided if put at good location e.g. atop hangar roof (but this is prime position also for e.g. Phalanx or RAM system)

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## Penguin

Blue Marlin said:


> i assume the azmat ship use codad propulsion, how many diesel engines does it have and what make/model are they?


four diesel engines driving four fixed pitch propellers (FPPs) through a _pair of two_ propulsion shafts
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-missile/
This ship is propelled by 04 Diesel Engines, 04 Propulsion Shafts with Fixed Pitch Propellers.
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/ongoing-projects/

I see at least 3 in pic below (2 on each side of keel would be logical)





https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pns-azmat-class-fast-attack-missile-craft-updates-discussions.130815/

Although there is little info on the engines themselves, they are possible MTU engines or Chinese licence built versions thereof. (Would make sense logistically: Jurrat and Jalalat classes already use 2x 2500hp 4-stroke MTU diesels. Four of these would give a total power of 10k hp, which is more than e.g. the 8.8k hp of the 430t Type 037 Hainan class boats of China, that can make 30.5kn and have a range of 2000nmi at 14kn).
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/new-fast-attack-craft-commissioned-for-pakistani-navy/
https://www.mtu-online.com/bangladesh/asia/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_037_corvette

If so, this suggests MTU 12V 4000 M71 or M74, or MTU 16V 2000 M93, M94 M96 or 96L
https://www.mtu-online.com/banglade...s-for-patrol-craft-and-fpbs/?L=pmhwhvenqzrqht



Advocate Pakistan said:


> Isn't CODAG more suitable for FACs. With the gas engine providing more speed and Sprint than what Diesel engine can?


Gasturbine, while giving high HP output, is less fuel efficient than diesel (i.e. cuts range). Hence traditionally often 4 big diesels on FACs. It is up to the navy in question which trade-off they make in terms of emphasis on high top speed or on range.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Penguin said:


> four diesel engines driving four fixed pitch propellers (FPPs) through a _pair of two_ propulsion shafts
> http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-missile/
> This ship is propelled by 04 Diesel Engines, 04 Propulsion Shafts with Fixed Pitch Propellers.
> http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/ongoing-projects/
> 
> I see at least 3 in pic below (2 on each side of keel would be logical)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pns-azmat-class-fast-attack-missile-craft-updates-discussions.130815/
> 
> Although there is little info on the engines themselves, they are possible MTU engines or Chinese licence built versions thereof. (Would make sense logistically: Jurrat and Jalalat classes already use 2x 2500hp 4-stroke MTU diesels. Four of these would give a total power of 10k hp, which is more than e.g. the 8.8k hp of the 430t Type 037 Hainan class boats of China, that can make 30.5kn and have a range of 2000nmi at 14kn).
> http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/new-fast-attack-craft-commissioned-for-pakistani-navy/
> https://www.mtu-online.com/bangladesh/asia/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_037_corvette
> 
> If so, this suggests MTU 12V 4000 M71 or M74, or MTU 16V 2000 M93, M94 M96 or 96L
> https://www.mtu-online.com/banglade...s-for-patrol-craft-and-fpbs/?L=pmhwhvenqzrqht
> 
> 
> Gasturbine, while ginving high HP output, is less fuel efficient than diesel (i.e. cuts range). Hence traditionally often 4 big diesels on FACs. It is up to the navy in question which trade-off they make in terms of emphasis on high top speed or on range.



Yes. Even I can see four propellers. See the blades of fourth one visible. Clearly.

Understood that the Navy wants better range from Azmat class hence no gas turbine and only diesel. Maybe for speed they are looking at type 22 or FAC 55. Whichever gets selected.

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## Penguin

Advocate Pakistan said:


> Yes. Even I can see four propellers. See the blades of fourth one visible. Clearly.
> 
> Understood that the Navy wants better range from Azmat class hence no gas turbine and only diesel. Maybe for speed they are looking at type 22 or FAC 55. Whichever gets selected.


Just to be clear, Azmat class isn't slow (top speed: 30 knots i.e. 56 km/h) and her range is approximately 1,000 nmi (1,900 km). For comparison:

*Type 143A Gepard class (Germany)*
Displacement: 390 tn
Propulsion: 4 × diesel engines, totalling 13,235 kW (17,748 hp)
Speed: 40 knots (74 km/h)

*Kılıç class (Turkey)*
Displacement: 552 tn
Propulsion: 4 × MTU diesel engines 15,120 bhp (11.27 MW) on 4 shafts (likely MTU 16V956TB91)
Speed: 40 knots (74 km/h)
Range: 1,050 nmi (1,940 km) at 30 kn (56 km/h)
(enlarged design, with roots in Gepard class, first of class built in Germany by Lurssen)

French La Combattante is similar to Gepard and uses 4 MTU 20V 538 TB92 diesels; 18,000 bhp(m) (12.54 MW) sustained; 4 shafts (P 20-23)

Range (nmi): 700 at 32 kn; 2,000 at 15 kn
Speed (knots):36.5 kn


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## Sheraz Patriot

Is it not possible to add more of azmat class but to modify some of them for anti submarine duties near to the coast with modifications made in all the azmat class for short to medium range air defence so that they can defend themselves from air threats?
Thanks



Sheraz Patriot said:


> Is it not possible to add more of azmat class but to modify some of them for anti submarine duties near to the coast with modifications made in all the azmat class for short to medium range air defence so that they can defend themselves from air threats?
> Thanks


By this way we would be able to add numbers for more coverage and our ships would not be an easy target.


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## Safriz



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

When is the 4th one getting completed it is April Already ?


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## Sheraz Patriot

This class of ships would be very useful if we add in numbers add a light air defence missile system and modify some for anti submarine role.
Thanks


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## Imran Khan

Sheraz Patriot said:


> This class of ships would be very useful if we add in numbers add a light air defence missile system and modify some for anti submarine role.
> Thanks


where is the room for all this luxury boss?


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## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> where is the room for all this luxury boss?


definitely room is there. there is a lot of free space. and then replace ciws 630 with fl-3000n 23 cell anti-air system. upgrade teh radar system with lates aselsan aesa radar. add 2 12.5 mm rws stamp guns. you can add a couple of anti-sub lightweight fixed torpedo tubes towards the rear end. 

a bit of improvement will make this a very potent platform. this is my issue with navy planners they are always a few feet shy of excellence. not sure why. may it be f-22p or azmat or new ada class corvette. we have seen this pattern...

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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> definitely room is there. there is a lot of free space. and then replace ciws 630 with fl-3000n 23 cell anti-air system. upgrade teh radar system with lates aselsan aesa radar. add 2 12.5 mm rws stamp guns. you can add a couple of anti-sub lightweight fixed torpedo tubes towards the rear end.
> 
> a bit of improvement will make this a very potent platform. this is my issue with navy planners they are always a few feet shy of excellence. not sure why. may it be f-22p or azmat or new ada class corvette. we have seen this pattern...
> 
> View attachment 471066


not necessarily they should replace few systems on the existing platform ... they should go for new version based on Azmat class adding air defence for short to medium range

When Hamina class can have Umkhonto-IR with almost half of displacement and shorter in length than Azamt class than why should we not explore the option of FAC with air defence ....??

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## Hassan Guy

the karakurt class is identical in displacement and dimensions to the Azmat yet has a full blown 8 cell UKSK VLS


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## Tank131

The Hamina is a perfect example of well thought out design. It is 250t ship (less than half the displacement of Azmat class) and carries 4 AShM and 8 Umkhonto-ir. As far as improving the Azmat, it is very doable.

1. Replace the radar with something akin to the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB on like on the Visby. With a 180km range it will give great situational awareness to the vessel.

2. Move the AK-630 From the rear and put it on a pedestal in place of the 23mm automatic gun as your main gun. It has twice the range, better rate of fire and better caliber. It would be effective both against aerial amd surface targets far more so than the 23mm gun.

3. In place of the AK 630 in the rear, put an 8 cell FL-3000N Launcher. 

4. On either side of the RHIB you could place a mk32 triple torpedo launcher. 

5. On either sid of the FL-3000N (in th rear) put a 12.7mm STAMP remote gun. (this is optional).

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## syed_yusuf

Tank131 said:


> The Hamina is a perfect example of well thought out design. It is 250t ship (less than half the displacement of Azmat class) and carries 4 AShM and 8 Umkhonto-ir. As far as improving the Azmat, it is very doable.
> 
> 1. Replace the radar with something akin to the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB on like on the Visby. With a 180km range it will give great situational awareness to the vessel.
> 
> 2. Move the AK-630 From the rear and put it on a pedestal in place of the 23mm automatic gun as your main gun. It has twice the range, better rate of fire and better caliber. It would be effective both against aerial amd surface targets far more so than the 23mm gun.
> 
> 3. In place of the AK 630 in the rear, put an 8 cell FL-3000N Launcher.
> 
> 4. On either side of the RHIB you could place a mk32 triple torpedo launcher.
> 
> 5. On either sid of the FL-3000N (in th rear) put a 12.7mm STAMP remote gun. (this is optional).



Exactly

This is what I have been saying for such a long time 

PN planners always miss the last 9 yards 

Some of the common sense we see lacks in their planning 

I am very surprise that they keep doing half baked plans

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## Tank131

syed_yusuf said:


> Exactly
> 
> This is what I have been saying for such a long time
> 
> PN planners always miss the last 9 yards
> 
> Some of the common sense we see lacks in their planning
> 
> I am very surprise that they keep doing half baked plans



In fairness, the design is chinese and they are about cost effective and utility... The European approach is about efficiency which is why most of their ships are low tonnage and with big sticks vs American ships which are sheer brute force. PN needs a more efficiently designed fleet. Smaller displacement but highly capable. Think along the lines of the Israeli Sa'ar5 amd Saar 6 which are built and designed by the Germans and carry relatively large weapons loads in a tight small frame (1250t amd 2000t respectively). The Sa'ar 6 carries 16 AShM, 32 Barak 8, C-dome (likely 32+ point defense missiles), guns and a medium sized helicopter. PN should move in this direction, with light frigates capable of operating independently with high potential for survivability. But that all costs money.

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## Armchair

brilliant ideas by Syed Yusuf and Tank. I've shared some similar ideas on the Azmat class over the years. 

The main counter-argument is cost and efficient use of funds. 

Viz:

1. These subsystems (such as the FL-3000) cost a lot. Perhaps nearly as much as the basic boat itself. 
2. If you are going to put such expensive systems on a ship, why not a larger ship? ....

Regarding which, here are some other interesting ideas.

What would be a game changer - a locally built SAM system for the PAF / PA and most vitally, for PN. Installed across the fleet.


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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> brilliant ideas by Syed Yusuf and Tank. I've shared some similar ideas on the Azmat class over the years.
> 
> The main counter-argument is cost and efficient use of funds.
> 
> Viz:
> 
> 1. These subsystems (such as the FL-3000) cost a lot. Perhaps nearly as much as the basic boat itself.
> 2. If you are going to put such expensive systems on a ship, why not a larger ship? ....
> 
> Regarding which, here are some other interesting ideas.
> 
> What would be a game changer - a locally built SAM system for the PAF / PA and most vitally, for PN. Installed across the fleet.



Im not sure about the cost of FL-3000N, but i agree the rate limiting issue is cost. To quote a former professor of mine, "the answer is money...what's your question?" with that said, the PN must spend money to be relevant, otherwise Pakistan can just bend over now cuz india will mess it ip.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> Im not sure about the cost of FL-3000N, but i agree the rate limiting issue is cost. To quote a former professor of mine, "the answer is money...what's your question?" with that said, the PN must spend money to be relevant, otherwise Pakistan can just bend over now cuz india will mess it ip.



Thanks for your reply Tank131. Its not that easy to make a nuclear power bend over. A single tactical nuke can send a naval task force underwater and cause a tsunami to boot. 

Be that is it may, I think we have to take the overall perspective. The CPEC has changed the game. China is effectively building the PN into a force to be reckoned. Now, I'm neither Pakistani nor privy to any insider information, but here is what I can glean:

8 aip submarines, new from China
2-8 nuclear submarines
4 Type-54A mod
4 Milgem corvettes
various OPVs, refitted with equipment from retiring ships over 10
Azmat Class Block 2
Possibility of a new local corvette (???)
Su-35 (???) wild card

CPEC will change Pakistani economy, its basically like a mini Marshal Plan. Which will mean.... _money_.


*What I am really interested to know is if the indigenous SAM project bore fruit. It should be relatively simple to get a basic SAM for use by 3 services. Would also make a great export item.*


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## KaleemlOvely

Very useful post thanks


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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Thanks for your reply Tank131. Its not that easy to make a nuclear power bend over. A single tactical nuke can send a naval task force underwater and cause a tsunami to boot.
> 
> Be that is it may, I think we have to take the overall perspective. The CPEC has changed the game. China is effectively building the PN into a force to be reckoned. Now, I'm neither Pakistani nor privy to any insider information, but here is what I can glean:
> 
> 8 aip submarines, new from China
> 2-8 nuclear submarines
> 4 Type-54A mod
> 4 Milgem corvettes
> various OPVs, refitted with equipment from retiring ships over 10
> Azmat Class Block 2
> Possibility of a new local corvette (???)
> Su-35 (???) wild card
> 
> CPEC will change Pakistani economy, its basically like a mini Marshal Plan. Which will mean.... _money_.
> 
> 
> *What I am really interested to know is if the indigenous SAM project bore fruit. It should be relatively simple to get a basic SAM for use by 3 services. Would also make a great export item.*



The 4 large frigates and proposal for nuclear subs, Milgem, and Su-35 are all examples of what i said...spending money. But just having the ships doesn't mean much if they are ineffective. For example, spending $200+ million on each Ada corvette with 8 harpoons and a 21 cell pdms is a relative waste money when the same job cam be done for less by Type 056. Spending $250-300 million on a ship (like the Istanbul class of LF-2400 with 16 cell vls (loaded with quad packed mrsam) , 16 AShM and a 21 cell pdms is far more capable and even cost effective because it is mote likely to survive a conflict.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sure had taken long time for the 4th ship Supervisor need to charge up the whip to get people working more productively

For a small ship like Azmat class one would imagine the production would be faster at typical pace

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> The 4 large frigates and proposal for nuclear subs, Milgem, and Su-35 are all examples of what i said...spending money. But just having the ships doesn't mean much if they are ineffective. For example, spending $200+ million on each Ada corvette with 8 harpoons and a 21 cell pdms is a relative waste money when the same job cam be done for less by Type 056. Spending $250-300 million on a ship (like the Istanbul class of LF-2400 with 16 cell vls (loaded with quad packed mrsam) , 16 AShM and a 21 cell pdms is far more capable and even cost effective because it is mote likely to survive a conflict.



Hi Tank131,

I'm not privy to the cost Pakistan is paying for Milgem corvettes, or what is included and what is not. Remember, the main costs of combat ships today relates to what you fit them with. And many of the sub-systems used in the Turkish ships are of Western origin, and have official and unofficial blockade of arms.

There are many other issues. 1 of a 100. for instance, PN needs to deal with Brahmos, which is a very serious threat. This needs either long-to-medium range sams or very fast reacting shorter range systems.

The typical CIWS is pretty ineffective against multiple supersonic AShM attacks, as the sheer mass, speed and reaction time available make defense a nightmare. The typical type of radar guided shorter range systems such as Sea Sparrow type and the type F-22Ps have, just don't have the reaction times necessary for a shorter range system.

Longer range systems require serious investment in detection and tracking radars. In short, a very expensive affair. Plus unofficial sanctions and intrigue, what have you. Chinese systems in this range are not cheap, nor are they of particularly good quality, nor reliable. Reliability is a serious concern as a dud means a ship and many lives destroyed.

So what would you like PN to do? Go for gold-plated systems whose upkeep in the future could be an issue?

If I had to speculate, the shortest reaction time systems are IR based, not radar based. Radar is better for longer ranges, due to certain lags in reaction times. If I had to speculate further (and I have no insider info mind you, nor am I even Pakistani) PN has most likely invested / or is investing in such a system.

You may just see a Turkish IR-based sam installed on the Milgem corvettes PN is buying. Technically no deal has been signed nor any cost figures publicly acknowledged. The whole point of PN going for a Turkish system despite CPEC and close ties with China is both the qualitative and technological edge of a western-tech based ship, as well as the relative competence of Turkey in IR based systems. IMHO.

So basically you will have 3-4 task groups each with an umbrella provided via 54As, and smaller ships complementing each other. This is a reasonable goal. Remember, PN's budget is a tiny fraction of IN's. The response has to be asymmetric, which basically means submarines and a2d. PN is also looking to purchase Su-35s, which again would be a major force multiplier.

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## mzain

Why it's taking so long to build 4th Azmat Ship? Any news on it ?


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## syed_yusuf

mzain said:


> Why it's taking so long to build 4th Azmat Ship? Any news on it ?


It is really slow progress

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## Aamir Hussain

It is fitting out at a KSEW berth.


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## imrankhan7250

Aamir Hussain said:


> It is fitting out at a KSEW berth.


Just wait for the monsoon to subside and you will hear something.


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## Aamir Hussain

What has monsoon got anything to do with it? It has been fitting out at that berth since January with the fitting out tender on the port side of the vessel.

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## Aamir Hussain

Three Azmat's without missile canisters on 14th January 18'.






Fourth Azmat fitting out at KSEW berth 14th Jan 18'.

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## HRK

Aamir Hussain said:


> Three Azmat's without missile canisters on 14th January 18'.
> View attachment 483425
> 
> 
> Fourth Azmat fitting out at KSEW berth 14th Jan 18'.
> View attachment 483428







which warship is this ...??


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## khanasifm

Aamir Hussain said:


> Three Azmat's without missile canisters on 14th January 18'.
> View attachment 483425
> 
> 
> Fourth Azmat fitting out at KSEW berth 14th Jan 18'.
> View attachment 483428



Looks more like msa 600 ton ships and not azmat class

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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> Looks more like msa 600 ton ships and not azmat class[/QUOTE





HRK said:


> which warship is this ...??


These are not azmat facm and the big sgip is the new tanker

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## Aamir Hussain

I stand corrected Sir! It is indeed Hingol Class PMSA boats. Thank you for the correction.

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## CHI RULES

Armchair said:


> Hi Tank131,
> 
> I'm not privy to the cost Pakistan is paying for Milgem corvettes, or what is included and what is not. Remember, the main costs of combat ships today relates to what you fit them with. And many of the sub-systems used in the Turkish ships are of Western origin, and have official and unofficial blockade of arms.
> 
> There are many other issues. 1 of a 100. for instance, PN needs to deal with Brahmos, which is a very serious threat. This needs either long-to-medium range sams or very fast reacting shorter range systems.
> 
> The typical CIWS is pretty ineffective against multiple supersonic AShM attacks, as the sheer mass, speed and reaction time available make defense a nightmare. The typical type of radar guided shorter range systems such as Sea Sparrow type and the type F-22Ps have, just don't have the reaction times necessary for a shorter range system.
> 
> Longer range systems require serious investment in detection and tracking radars. In short, a very expensive affair. Plus unofficial sanctions and intrigue, what have you. Chinese systems in this range are not cheap, nor are they of particularly good quality, nor reliable. Reliability is a serious concern as a dud means a ship and many lives destroyed.
> 
> So what would you like PN to do? Go for gold-plated systems whose upkeep in the future could be an issue?
> 
> If I had to speculate, the shortest reaction time systems are IR based, not radar based. Radar is better for longer ranges, due to certain lags in reaction times. If I had to speculate further (and I have no insider info mind you, nor am I even Pakistani) PN has most likely invested / or is investing in such a system.
> 
> You may just see a Turkish IR-based sam installed on the Milgem corvettes PN is buying. Technically no deal has been signed nor any cost figures publicly acknowledged. The whole point of PN going for a Turkish system despite CPEC and close ties with China is both the qualitative and technological edge of a western-tech based ship, as well as the relative competence of Turkey in IR based systems. IMHO.
> 
> So basically you will have 3-4 task groups each with an umbrella provided via 54As, and smaller ships complementing each other. This is a reasonable goal. Remember, PN's budget is a tiny fraction of IN's. The response has to be asymmetric, which basically means submarines and a2d. PN is also looking to purchase Su-35s, which again would be a major force multiplier.



It is mentioned by Turks that Pakistan is getting Milgem corvettes unarmed i.e the SAMS and other gadgets shall be fitted as per PN choice after delivery of corvettes. In case of corvettes and even for F22Ps Pakistan may go for Umokhonto SAM both in short range and medium range from South Africa. Meanwhile these corvettes may be armed by domestic Harba Missiles.


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## Armchair

No - Milgem will not come unarmed.


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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> In fairness, the design is chinese and they are about cost effective and utility... The European approach is about efficiency which is why most of their ships are low tonnage and with big sticks vs American ships which are sheer brute force. PN needs a more efficiently designed fleet. Smaller displacement but highly capable. Think along the lines of the Israeli Sa'ar5 amd Saar 6 which are built and designed by the Germans and carry relatively large weapons loads in a tight small frame (1250t amd 2000t respectively). The Sa'ar 6 carries 16 AShM, 32 Barak 8, C-dome (likely 32+ point defense missiles), guns and a medium sized helicopter. PN should move in this direction, with light frigates capable of operating independently with high potential for survivability. But that all costs money.



Hi,

When the sh-it hits the fan---and the battle starts that is when the realization hits that we fckd up---.

You have written a great piece---what I would add to it is---if over all cost is an issue---Then we should reduce the number of ships from 4 to three and spend that money to make the three the best of what is available---.

3 extraordinary would always be better than 4 ordinary---.

A game changer has nothing to do with being local built---. A game changer has to be the best available options---whomsoever build it---.

Mehmet would not have broken the walls of Constantinopole if he had chosen to stay with the Local Built canon builders.

When he heard abut the extraordinary canon builder from Hungary---he did not waste a moment and hired him to do the job---.

If it was not for that massive canon shot---the walls of the fort would not have come down---.

In the matters of weapons and weaponry---it does not matter---where the weapon comes from---. What matters is---is it able---is it capable---would it work when needed---is our better than their's---.

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## mzain

MastanKhan said:


> and *hired *him to do the job---.


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## mzain

Yar, ye 4th boat kahan reh gai ? konsi nayi science laga rahe hein larke?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Where is the 4th boat?? ???
I think 2.5 years for a very small size ship is ridiculous slow speed


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## mzain

Is this project is dead?


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## Tamiyah

mzain said:


> Is this project is dead?


Maaybe. There is no news about it since the 3rd ship Induction and No new news about 4th ship.


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## syed_yusuf

Tamiyah said:


> Maaybe. There is no news about it since the 3rd ship Induction and No new news about 4th ship.


This is getting mysterious


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## Tamiyah

syed_yusuf said:


> This is getting mysterious


Maybe they are applying something new to 4th ship? or maybe the PN are not happy with these FAC and trying to procure or develop new ones?


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## Armchair

This is why all these semi-retired "ofsars" should be removed from KSEW, HIT, etc. They really destroyed Paksitan's capabilities. Let these organizations be run on merit, by people who are specialized in the respective fields. How long will this destruction from within continue for the happy retirement of military top brass?

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## mzain

But they have started the work and there is Keel laying ceremony..... Do they halt it after the start?


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## Tamiyah

mzain said:


> But they have started the work and there is Keel laying ceremony..... Do they halt it after the start?


Yeah that is the real question ? Why would they??


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## Armchair

only thing in their defence: "slow and steady wins the race" (someone forgot to tell China)


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well there were some adjustments being made in Azmat class ships








Things have changed a bit since the original design
More goodies on the Stealth ships

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## Army research

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well there were some adjustments being made in Azmat class ships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed a bit since the original design
> More goodies on the Stealth ships


They ain't stealth ships , a stealth ship is akin to zumwalt class ,


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## syed_yusuf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well there were some adjustments being made in Azmat class ships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed a bit since the original design
> More goodies on the Stealth ships


Beside ssm nothing changes

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## mzain

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well there were some adjustments being made in Azmat class ships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed a bit since the original design
> More goodies on the Stealth ships


Good to hear that they are changing the design but still too slow.

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## khanasifm

On a closer look AK/630 has radar as well as electroptics ie dual mode guidance

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## syed_yusuf

is the 4th one every officially inducted to the navy?

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## aziqbal

we should build a 5th and 6th

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## syed_yusuf

What happened to the 4th on was it ever build 

5th and 6th looks like 10 years away

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> What happened to the 4th on was it ever build
> 
> 5th and 6th looks like 10 years away


The 4th one is taking a longer time because MTC and KSEW are apparently building it on their own. This isn't to say it's indigenous, but rather, MTC/KSEW are trying to build knowledge on ship design, construction and integration on their own without the help of a foreign naval solutions company. The idea is that in the future MTC/KSEW can offer their own FAC design (albeit with a mix of foreign and local components).

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The 4th one is taking a longer time because MTC and KSEW are apparently building it on their own. This isn't to say it's indigenous, but rather, MTC/KSEW are trying to build knowledge on ship design, construction and integration on their own without the help of a foreign naval solutions company. The idea is that in the future MTC/KSEW can offer their own FAC design (albeit with a mix of foreign and local components).


Any time line that you kmow of for its completion? And shouldn't they already have gone through the learning process under the watchful eye of CSSC? What are they changing that they it is taking this long? Because this bodes poorly for MILGEM being constructed in Pakistan in any reasonable time frame amd could explain why the 3rd amd 4th 054A/P are now being built in China.

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## Affanakad0t.

4th one?

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## syed_yusuf

that is type21 frigate

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## Affanakad0t.

syed_yusuf said:


> that is type21 frigate


Ohh. So the other one in next dockyard is azmat class?


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## khanasifm

Affanakad0t. said:


> Ohh. So the other one in next dockyard is azmat class?



Type 21 is about 123m so the smaller one as fav is ~60 m if I am not mistaken


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## Affanakad0t.

khanasifm said:


> Type 21 is about 123m so the smaller one as fav is ~60 m if I am not mistaken


Yes. You are right. But what is adjecent to type 21. Its smaller than type 21 and type 21 is the smallest frigate pakistan pakistan has ( length wise )


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## FuturePAF

considering an AK-630 was placed aft, should the Forward Dual Machine Guns be replaced with either the Kashtan-M or the FL-3000N. If the Ship can provide local air defense for itself, it can operate further out in a task force and be have more of an independence of action in the fog of war. The FL-3000N need not be the full 24 cell version, but even a smaller number of cells can still provide a formidable defense if the missiles are upgraded to match the threats the ship will face. 

I would want to go with the 15 cell variant, but the 8 cell one is deployed on the Type 56 Corvette in the Chinese navy, and that may be a great compromise to keep costs down and still field a decent defense. If coupled with a decent Aesa Radar, it can be a whole order more lethal; employing EW and being able to detect enemy threats as soon as they can be seen over the radar horizon, allowing air defense missiles to be employed against subsonic and supersonic threats ASAP. Considering Pakistan is building up domestic AESA Radar production capabilities, this would be a perfect platform to test it on, and off for sale to friendly nations. 

With just the addition of a decent AESA radar, these small ships can operate as picket ships, well in advance of the main force, and act as scouts; allowing the large vessels and naval aircraft to employ the best tactics to get the job done. Remember with modern data-link, these ships can provide data that can be used by the larger ships to not only search and track targets, but even guide them to a successful engagement. the follow videos demonstrate a good deal of these capabilities.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Pakistan Navy's FAC(M)-4. Photo Source: Associated Press of Pakistan (APP)
Daily News
Nov 27, 2019 Bilal Khan -
*PAKISTAN’S KSEW LAUNCHES FOURTH FAST ATTACK CRAFT (MISSILE)*
ShareTweet

Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) launched the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) fourth Azmat-class fast attack craft (missile) – or FAC(M) – on 27 November 2019.

The launch comes after nearly three years of construction, with KSEW cutting FAC(M)-4’s steel in January 2017. In contrast, FAC(M)-3 (PNS Himmat) took 24 months from its steel-cutting ceremony to launch.

Unlike the three previous FAC(M)s, the PN had stated that FAC(M)-4 was “first indigenous design.” The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2017-2018 also stated that FAC(M)-4 was being built “without seeking foreign technical expertise.”

Thus, the longer construction period of FAC(M)-4 could be the result of KSEW trying to construct the ship without the main original equipment manufacturer’s (OEM) technical documentation. Likewise, FAC(M)-4 also bears multiple differences in its superstructure compared to the preceding three ships.




Source: KSEW























KSEW’s illustration of FAC(M)-4 indicates that the PN will equip it along similar lines as FAC(M)-3, i.e., PNS Himmat, especially in terms of including the Harbah or Improved Harbah anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM).

FAC(M)-4’s specifications are as follows (source: KSEW):


Length: 63 m
Breadth: 8.8 m
Draught: 2.46 m
Displacement: 560 tons
Maximum Speed: 30 knots
Range: 1,000 nautical miles
FAC(M)-4 relies on combined diesel-and-diesel (CODAD) for propulsion. In addition to ASCMs (configured in a dual triple-cell system), the FAC(M)-4 will be equipped with a 25 mm gun, close-in-weapons-system (CIWS), and various sensors, including a surface search and tracking radar.

*For More Information on the Pakistan Navy, Check Out:*


Pakistan’s New Supersonic Missiles Should Work From FACs
Pakistan Navy Tests Dual Anti-Ship and Land-Attack Cruise Missile
Analysis: Pakistan’s Type 054A/P Frigate Acquisition
*Notes & Comments:*

Pakistan’s efforts at constructing FAC(M)-4 with limited foreign support could be an indication of it looking at further indigenous ship design and shipbuilding efforts. Interestingly, in 2016 the PN reportedly issued a requirement for an additional four to six FACs. It could roll its localization drive with the follow-on order.

However, it would be advisable for the PN to look at evolving its FAC requirements. Though the FAC(M) is equipped with credible anti-ship and land-attack capabilities through the Harbah, other ship designers are incorporating anti-air warfare (AAW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities to their FACs.

For example, Fincantieri is offering its Falaj 2 FAC design (to the United Arab Emirates) with a dual triple-cell vertical launch system (VLS) loaded with MBDA MICA-VL SAMs (which offer a range of 20 km). Though the Falaj 2 adds AAW at the apparent cost of a lighter ASCM load (four missiles), the Falaj 2’s specifications are similar to the FAC(M), e.g., the displacement is 520 tons and length is 55 m.

Equipping FACs with SAMs could position them as short-range air defence (SHORAD) assets at sea, which could help dealing with intrusive drones or low-flying helicopters. It could potentially offer these FACs a measure of defensibility against oncoming ASCMs.

Ultimately, sub-600-ton FACs with complete multi-mission capabilities will become more common in the future. It could serve the PN well to consider those shifts (as it had with when configuring the MILGEM).

https://quwa.org/2019/11/27/pakistans-ksew-launches-fourth-fast-attack-craft-missile/

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## FuturePAF

Evolving the Azmat design could be key to Pakistan exporting Ships to other nations. In a similar manner to the JF-17, a small but affordable modern solution will allow many nations on a tight budget to utilize modern technologies to leverage these key vessels to their full capacity.

Also, I have been thinking about how this design could evolve, without having to modify the hull design by much, but adding these capabilities Bilal Khan @Quwa has mentioned.

Placing a 15 cell FL-3000N launcher on top of the bridge maybe a better location, if an integrated mast can replace the current mast and other antennas spread on top of the ship.

Similar to the Ram Launcher on top of the bridge on this South Korean Frigate
https://www.navyrecognition.com/ima...frigate_FFX_ROK_Navy_South_Korea_Navy_top.jpg
An integrated mast similar to the Gowind Corvette designs from France
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Egyptian_Navy_Gowind_corvette_El_Fateh_(971).jpg

The Main gun should be similar to the 40 mm Bofor option, which will allow another system that can use smart ammunition to engage different kinds of threats





A small hull mounted sonar, triple torpedo launchers on each side of the ship and a towed array can allow these ships to have limited ASW capabilities

Finally the addition of a smart Drone Helicopter system that can be launched and recovered from just above the fantail; into a smart docking system will open up the possibility to employ tactics and weapons, only large ships consider. ASW, a small early warning helicopter, anti-piracy operations, anti-ship, coast guard, search and rescue, and more. 

http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/attachement/jpeg/site2/20190403/8cdcd42dcac31e0e465908.jpeg

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## Zulfiqar

FuturePAF said:


> Evolving the Azmat design could be key to Pakistan exporting Ships to other nations. In a similar manner to the JF-17, a small but affordable modern solution will allow many nations on a tight budget to utilize modern technologies to leverage these key vessels to their full capacity.
> 
> Also, I have been thinking about how this design could evolve, without having to modify the hull design by much, but adding these capabilities Bilal Khan @Quwa has mentioned.
> 
> Placing a 15 cell FL-3000N launcher on top of the bridge maybe a better location, if an integrated mast can replace the current mast and other antennas spread on top of the ship.
> 
> Similar to the Ram Launcher on top of the bridge on this South Korean Frigate
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ima...frigate_FFX_ROK_Navy_South_Korea_Navy_top.jpg
> An integrated mast similar to the Gowind Corvette designs from France
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Egyptian_Navy_Gowind_corvette_El_Fateh_(971).jpg
> 
> The Main gun should be similar to the 40 mm Bofor option, which will allow another system that can use smart ammunition to engage different kinds of threats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A small hull mounted sonar, triple torpedo launchers on each side of the ship and a towed array can allow these ships to have limited ASW capabilities
> 
> Finally the addition of a smart Drone Helicopter system that can be launched and recovered from just above the fantail; into a smart docking system will open up the possibility to employ tactics and weapons, only large ships consider. ASW, a small early warning helicopter, anti-piracy operations, anti-ship, coast guard, search and rescue, and more.
> 
> http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/attachement/jpeg/site2/20190403/8cdcd42dcac31e0e465908.jpeg


There is not much space available for added stuff. PN would have to extend the hull design and build a new ship with higher displacement.


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## Cool_Soldier

good addition, adding more punch to defend mother land.
Waiting for first Type-54 arrival

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## khanasifm

What is know about this semi auto 25 mm gun mount at the front ?

Rate of fire , guidance , magazine capacity range compared to ak-630 30mm with 4-5 km range

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## FuturePAF

Zulfiqar said:


> There is not much space available for added stuff. PN would have to extend the hull design and build a new ship with higher displacement.
> 
> 
> View attachment 592284
> View attachment 592285
> View attachment 592286



Possibly, Probably, but the PN should see if the forward gun could be replaced with the Bofors 40 mm without major modifications, and if the mast can be made into an integrated mast as in the Govind Corvette. Once the mast is integrated, it will free up space forward of the mast for a small; at least 8 cell FL-3000N Launcher.

The triple torpedo launcher may require structural modifications, the hull mounted sonar would definitely require modifications, and the drone helicopter landing system may require a landing pad above the RHIB at the fantail.

Either way, the PN should study it, if not as a modifications, then as a follow-on model.

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## Zulfiqar

FuturePAF said:


> Possibly, Probably, but the PN should see if the forward gun could be replaced with the Bofors 40 mm without major modifications, and if the mast can be made into an integrated mast as in the Govind Corvette. Once the mast is integrated, it will free up space forward of the mast for a small; at least 8 cell FL-3000N Launcher.
> 
> The triple torpedo launcher may require structural modifications, the hull mounted sonar would definitely require modifications, and the drone helicopter landing system may require a landing pad above the RHIB at the fantail.
> 
> Either way, the PN should study it, if not as a modifications, then as a follow-on model.




Without any major structural changes, I think PN may be (a big may be) could fit a Korkut system instead of the 25 MM at the front and/or a stripped down/modified Pantsir M type system instead of the CIWS to give added firepower.

This is a FAC. We can't make a corvette out of it within this tonnage. Its primary role would be anti-ship/anti surface not anti-sub. 

Although I do agree about adding a landing pad above RHIB for a small S-100 type drone copter.

For a follow on model perhaps they could add space for an 8 cell FL-3000 N type SAM.

One more thing is that endurance of FAC is low so it would probably be used for shoot and scoot and not for Anti-sub duty which is of a longer duration.

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## FuturePAF

Zulfiqar said:


> Without any major structural changes, I think PN may be (a big may be) could fit a Korkut system instead of the 25 MM at the front and/or a stripped down/modified Pantsir M type system instead of the CIWS to give added firepower.
> 
> This is a FAC. We can't make a corvette out of it within this tonnage. Its primary role would be anti-ship/anti surface not anti-sub.
> 
> Although I do agree about adding a landing pad above RHIB for a small S-100 type drone copter.
> 
> For a follow on model perhaps they could add space for an 8 cell FL-3000 N type SAM.
> 
> One more thing is that endurance of FAC is low so it would probably be used for shoot and scoot and not for Anti-sub duty which is of a longer duration.



I will give you that, real ASW is probably too ambitious, maybe just a self protection suite with a hill mount sonar and decoy launchers so it doesn’t get taken down by an enemy sub.

I agree the Turkish system might be a better fit, and the PN should try to put an integrated on this thing so a FL-3000N can fit up top, if only so this little ship can have limited self protection and engage in effective Blockade running or other such limited offensive actions with the knowledge they can defend themselves if attacked.

A Drone helicopter landing deck can pay off greatly for this little ship at minimal cost. Carrying only a couple of drone helicopters this ship can investigate enemy activity from a safe distance, and if a stealth drone helicopter is fielded, it may even be able to relay targeting data while the ship stays over the horizon.

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## Zulfiqar

FuturePAF said:


> I will give you that, real ASW is probably too ambitious, maybe just a self protection suite with a hill mount sonar and decoy launchers so it doesn’t get taken down by an enemy sub.
> 
> I agree the Turkish system might be a better fit, and the PN should try to put an integrated on this thing so a FL-3000N can fit up top, if only so this little ship can have limited self protection and engage in effective Blockade running or other such limited offensive actions with the knowledge they can defend themselves if attacked.
> 
> A Drone helicopter landing deck can pay off greatly for this little ship at minimal cost. Carrying only a couple of drone helicopters this ship can investigate enemy activity from a safe distance, and if a stealth drone helicopter is fielded, it may even be able to relay targeting data while the ship stays over the horizon.



We can't add much into it because of design limitation and its purpose. 

A redesign for future FAC orders should be done though for added punch.

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## Tank131

Zulfiqar said:


> There is not much space available for added stuff. PN would have to extend the hull design and build a new ship with higher displacement.
> 
> 
> View attachment 592284
> View attachment 592285
> View attachment 592286



Well there still can be adjustments with smartly placed weapons and better layout for your electronics. A integrated mast will remove many of the electronic sensors from the top of the ship which could open you up for some additional weapons.

I would say there is no room for torpedoes, but you may get enough room for an additional AK-630 above the bridge. The first 2 vessels (Azmat and Dehshat) had twin 25mm cannon which was replaced by what looks to be an Aselsan STOP 25mm (or 30mm SMASH) remote controlled stabilized gun. THESE could be replaced on all vessels with a Type 1130 CIWS which would enable you to fit 6 HQ-10 missiles. If this system is too large, then simply move the AK630 to the front of the ship in place of the current gun and the current location of the AK-630 could be used for an 8-cell FL-3000N. That gives you 2 CIWS up front which have 4km effective range against aerial targets (although likely on 2-3km against missiles) and 8 missiles with 9km range against subsonic targets 6km against supersonic targets. If you are able to swing it however, i think a Tor-M2KM would be great in the current location of the AK630. You would get 16 missiles with a 15km range. Those missiles infact (according to russian defense forums) can engage targets going ~Mach 2 at 12km. That would ideally put brahmos at being able to be engaged at 9km.

Most cost effective would tor in the back, 1 AK630 up front like on Type 022 FACs (and nothing above bridge) . I dont think you should seek anti sub capabilities on this ship unless you enlarge it.

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## Zulfiqar

Tank131 said:


> Well there still can be adjustments with smartly placed weapons and better layout for your electronics. A integrated mast will remove many of the electronic sensors from the top of the ship which could open you up for some additional weapons.
> 
> I would say there is no room for torpedoes, but you may get enough room for an additional AK-630 above the bridge. The first 2 vessels (Azmat and Dehshat) had twin 25mm cannon which was replaced by what looks to be an Aselsan STOP 25mm (or 30mm SMASH) remote controlled stabilized gun. THESE could be replaced on all vessels with a Type 1130 CIWS which would enable you to fit 6 HQ-10 missiles. If this system is too large, then simply move the AK630 to the front of the ship in place of the current gun and the current location of the AK-630 could be used for an 8-cell FL-3000N. That gives you 2 CIWS up front which have 4km effective range against aerial targets (although likely on 2-3km against missiles) and 8 missiles with 9km range against subsonic targets 6km against supersonic targets. If you are able to swing it however, i think a Tor-M2KM would be great in the current location of the AK630. You would get 16 missiles with a 15km range. Those missiles infact (according to russian defense forums) can engage targets going ~Mach 2 at 12km. That would ideally put brahmos at being able to be engaged at 9km.
> 
> Most cost effective would tor in the back, 1 AK630 up front like on Type 022 FACs (and nothing above bridge) . I dont think you should seek anti sub capabilities on this ship unless you enlarge it.




Now that i think about it the front gun should not be replaced with a CIWS like weapon as CIWS has a high rate of fire and we need a low rate of fire weapon for longer engagements (even though you are done for if it comes to using the front gun in conventional fight). 


Yes, integrated mast can leave up space for additional stuff. As you said this can be used to install an 8 cell RAM/FL-3000 N or a naval pantsir equivalent (depending upon space) which along with the AK-630 at back would give potent last resort defense.

Its a FAC and and I agree that it should not be modified for anti-sub duties considering ship design limitation and all other factors.

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## Tank131

Zulfiqar said:


> Now that i think about it the front gun should not be replaced with a CIWS like weapon as CIWS has a high rate of fire and we need a low rate of fire weapon for longer engagements (even though you are done for if it comes to using the front gun in conventional fight).
> 
> 
> Yes, integrated mast can leave up space for additional stuff. As you said this can be used to install an 8 cell RAM/FL-3000 N or a naval pantsir equivalent (depending upon space) which along with the AK-630 at back would give potent last resort defense.
> 
> Its a FAC and and I agree that it should not be modified for anti-sub duties considering ship design limitation and all other factors.


The fact that it is an FAC is precisely why it should replace the main gun with a CIWS. The point of its current guns is for aerial defense from UAV, helos and other aircraft. It can also engage small surface targets. But when we talk sustained surface engagement, as you said, if all you have left is the gun, you are screwed. Secondly a protracted engagement would only really occur with larger ships and a 25 or 30mm shell will not penetrate their hulls. For small targets, the CIWS is the weapon of choice in fact, over missiles. The phalanx and in some cases hellfire missiles (aboard the LCS) are the main weapons the USN plans to employ against the "FAC Swarms" of Iran for example. The CIWS provide better aerial protection, longer surface engagement ranges (5km for ak-630) and more devastating firepower for a smaller craft like Azmats.

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## FuturePAF

While a true ASW capability may not be possible without significant modification, a hull mounted Sonar can help this small FAC detect if it is under attack by torpedo.

To counter such a threat either the bow or part of the side should be modified to carry decoys from Turkey, similar to what was installed on the Agosta 90B.

At that point the drone helicopter could carry one torpedo to try to engage enemy sub.

Also, depending on what’s in the bow ahead of the main gun, a couple of bow torpedo tubes could be a decent place for light torpedos to engage enemy subs; a more robust defensive option, and a number of tube based decoys or unmanned drone underwater vehicles could also be carried for special operations.


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## khanasifm

The msa 600 ton and 1500 ton ships contract has a clause to be able to put few launcher in time of need meaning the radar and electronic should support that capability even now 

Bottom line in time of need those 6 ships can be converted for now they have civilian role, protection against pollution, disaster, Recci and economic zone patrol etc 

Assuming two shot launcher somewhere on the ship 2x2 launcher like on 056

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## Zulfiqar

Tank131 said:


> The fact that it is an FAC is precisely why it should replace the main gun with a CIWS. The point of its current guns is for aerial defense from UAV, helos and other aircraft. It can also engage small surface targets. But when we talk sustained surface engagement, as you said, if all you have left is the gun, you are screwed. Secondly a protracted engagement would only really occur with larger ships and a 25 or 30mm shell will not penetrate their hulls. For small targets, the CIWS is the weapon of choice in fact, over missiles. The phalanx and in some cases hellfire missiles (aboard the LCS) are the main weapons the USN plans to employ against the "FAC Swarms" of Iran for example. The CIWS provide better aerial protection, longer surface engagement ranges (5km for ak-630) and more devastating firepower for a smaller craft like Azmats.



I would have also gone with CIWS/ Naval pantsir e.t.c at the front but then I saw the RHIB at the back which I don't see in other FAC. This means that they probably also have some dual use like VBSS e.t.c which calls the need for a different type of gun at the front with lower rate of fire.

However, in pure offensive role against bigger ships I agree that CIWS or other similar weapon should replace the front gun as a supplement to other point defense assets.


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## Tank131

Zulfiqar said:


> I would have also gone with CIWS/ Naval pantsir e.t.c at the front but then I saw the RHIB at the back which I don't see in other FAC. This means that they probably also have some dual use like VBSS e.t.c which calls the need for a different type of gun at the front with lower rate of fire.
> 
> However, in pure offensive role against bigger ships I agree that CIWS or other similar weapon should replace the front gun as a supplement to other point defense assets.


 For VBSS the ciws is again preferred as it will rip appart small boats in a matter of split second. Against larger craft the threat of those missile will be the deterant. For the gun to be a meaningful threat to a full size surface combant it would need to be something like a 76mm cannon which the Azmat is too small to carry unless it gives up the missiles. Double its size and you could have a buyan-M type light corvette.

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## khanasifm

Same AK-630 with 5km range against surface and 4 Km against air is much better then current one which has range of 22-2400 m or 2.4 km but keep in mind these boats will operate with mothership providing protections part of naval flotilla

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## khanasifm

? Not sure how accurate 


https://aminoapps.com/c/military-am...ack-craft/lXeo_vLzUGID58e0ZlX7N73XK1jm7WqVdmY


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## Tank131

khanasifm said:


> ? Not sure how accurate
> 
> 
> https://aminoapps.com/c/military-am...ack-craft/lXeo_vLzUGID58e0ZlX7N73XK1jm7WqVdmY


There are a few inaccuracies that i can tell. 
1. The twin guns are 23mm not 30mm. 

2. In the 3rd and 4th ship the twin guns appear to be replaced by Aselsan 25mm STOPor 30mm SMASH cannon.

The H/PJ-13 is rhe chinese designation for the chinese copy of AK-630M. It replaces some components with updated chinese components.

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## khanasifm

So what’s the difference between 4th and previous version ??

Mostly in the rear the ramp door to launch rib has been replaced by no door and hydraulic jack to lift rib Ana deploy and the rear is less conjusted ssm were changed in 3rd boat as well ??

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## Pakistani Fighter

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 618669
> View attachment 618668
> 
> 
> So what’s the difference between 4th and previous version ??
> 
> Mostly in the rear the ramp door to launch rib has been replaced by no door and hydraulic jack to lift rib Ana deploy and the rear is less conjugated, ssm were changed in 3rd boat as well ??


I think we shud include 3 more missiles

I have Questions. What radar are these ships equipped with? Can they guide our Long Range harbah? If not then is Harbah Active Homing Missile? @Tank131


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## Tank131

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think we shud include 3 more missiles
> 
> I have Questions. What radar are these ships equipped with? Can they guide our Long Range harbah? If not then is Harbah Active Homing Missile? @Tank131



Harbar is likely a combo of inertial navigation with terminal active seeking. That being said I would strongly doubt the Azmats carry a radar would be able to fully avail the 700km range of Harba and may rely on data link with aircraft and other vessels at longer ranges.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 618669
> View attachment 618668
> 
> 
> So what’s the difference between 4th and previous version ??
> 
> Mostly in the rear the ramp door to launch rib has been replaced by no door and hydraulic jack to lift rib Ana deploy and the rear is less conjusted ssm were changed in 3rd boat as well ??


FAC(M)-3 was built with OEM-supplied KoM.
FAC(M)-4 was built without OEM-supplied KoM (so say KSEW, MTC, etc).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This program should be expanded further , instead of a 1 off Azmat Boat

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## khanasifm

Tank131 said:


> Harbar is likely a combo of inertial navigation with terminal active seeking. That being said I would strongly doubt the Azmats carry a radar would be able to fully avail the 700km range of Harba and may rely on data link with aircraft and other vessels at longer ranges.




Fac Operate along with other assets which can provide air coverage plus guide as well in littoral waters

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## Tank131

khanasifm said:


> Fac Operate along with other assets which can provide air coverage plus guide as well in littoral waters



Exactly my point. It will likely be guided with help of larger vessels or aircraft like ZDK or ATRs.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Exactly my point. It will likely be guided with help of larger vessels or aircraft like ZDK or ATRs.





khanasifm said:


> Fac Operate along with other assets which can provide air coverage plus guide as well in littoral waters


The PN said it needs 4-6 additional FACs (in 2016). I think these new boats will coincide with the induction of the supersonic missile (listed in the MoDP). It could be a continuation of the FAC(M)-series or a new FAC entirely, but either way, I reckon it'll be an in-house design.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN said it needs 4-6 additional FACs (in 2016). I think these new boats will coincide with the induction of the supersonic missile (listed in the MoDP). It could be a continuation of the FAC(M)-series or a new FAC entirely, but either way, I reckon it'll be an in-house design.




Pn also needed to replace
Older type plus need 4-6 for Taskforce xx To cover cpec/gawadar 

so perhaps the total should be ~8/10

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## Armchair

does the redesign now leave space for a UAV launched from the aft deck?

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## fatman17

*Full Steam Ahead!*
This is an article published in our April/May 2016 Issue.

By
Trevor Hollingsbee
-
October 20, 2017




The Republic of Singapore Navy ‘Formidable’ class frigate and ‘Valour’ class corvettes. The new ‘Independence’ class helicopter-capable FACs will considerably enhance Singapore’s littoral surveillance and defence. (US Navy) 

 
*Fast Attack Craft (FAC) can represent a cost effective solution, to both coastal and littoral defence requirements, and less intensive, maritime policing, needs. This article gives an analysis of the latest developments in the FAC domain.*



Demand for FAC is particularly noticeable in the Asia-Pacific region, and this article puts a spotlight on developments in terms of procurements and upgrades in this part of the world. For example, regarding the Bangladesh Navy, recent years have seen the combat capabilities of the BN’s four ‘Hegu’ class FACs considerably enhanced by the replacement of their old SY-1 Anti-Shipping Missiles (AShMs) with Chinese Aviation Industry Corporation (CAIC) C-704A AShMs. Coming into service with the Bangladesh Navy by late this year will be eight indigenously-built 11.7 metre/m (38 feet/ft) FACs, with the intended roles of backing sovereignty claims, and enforcing maritime law. The state-owned Dockyard and Engineering Works (DEW) Narayangani is building the fully composite craft to the X12 design under a technology transfer agreement with Indonesia’s PT Lundin. The X12 is a derivative of the Swedish Dockstavarvet Combat Boat 90 concept. DEW did not respond to enquiries as to the cost of the project, which also includes ten full-cabin versions for the Bangladesh Coast Guard, but Indonesian media reports have put the value of the contract at $6 million. Armed with three machine guns, the 35-knot (65 Kilometres-per-hour) craft will be powered by Volvo Penta diesel engines linked to waterjets.





The Indonesian Navy’s KRI Todak FAC and the US Navy Amphibious Assault Ship USS Green Bay in company. Indonesia continues to build up the FAC capabilities of its very large fleet. (US Navy)
*Burma *
To the southeast of Bangladesh, the growth and modernisation of Burma’s navy, over the past decade, has been dramatic. The force’s commitments include fishery protection, anti-piracy and anti-narcotics operations. Also important is the enforcement of claims to probably hydrocarbon-rich areas in the Bay of Bengal. Burma previously relied mainly upon China for the supply of naval vessels, but now has a booming warship construction industry. Since 2004 some 20 indigenously-built missile- and gun-armed FAC have been commissioned, while a new class of fast motor torpedo boat, reportedly optimised for anti-submarine warfare, is coming into service. The Burmese, though, have now turned to Israel to up their FAC game. In late 2015, six Super Dvora Mk.3 craft were ordered from the Ramta division of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). The acquisition of these vessels is a potent symbol of Burma’s determination to protect its offshore assets at a time when bidding for exploration rights in the county’s Exclusive Economic Zone is intensifying. IAI neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Burmese contract, but Mr. David Bogner, International Marketing and Customer Service Manager at IAI Ramta, gave A_rmada_ an update on the Super Dvora Mk.3. “It is an exceptionally versatile platform, capable of over 48 knots (89km/h), it has strong pursuit and interception capabilities for naval and coast guard roles, but can also land shore parties, and even be beached if required.” Mr. Bogner emphasised the range of options available to operators. “A typical weapons fit might be a Rafael Advanced Defence Systems’ Typhoon stabilised cannon, plus smaller weapons, but we can meet individual customers requirements. We respond to users’ preferences for surveillance and fire control radars. We offer MTU or Caterpillar engines for propulsion. The articulating surface drive option, utilising surface-piercing propellers, both reduces drag, thereby increasing efficiency, and helps enable shallow water operations.”





The Burmese Navy’s Tatmadaw Ya is the latest version of the very potent, versatile, and well-proven ‘Super Dvora’ class which is set to give the country’s rapidly expanding naval capabilities a further boost. (IAI)
*China*
As well as being a supplier of such craft, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) was a long-term operator of multiple small FACs of various types. The Chinese have rationalised its FAC fleet over the past decade though, and now relies mainly upon the 224-tonnes, 43m (141ft) catamaran ‘Houbei’ class, which is intended to pose a threat of saturation missile attacks to US Navy carrier groups operating in waters adjacent to the PRC. These 36-knot (67 km/h) craft, powered by twin diesel engines, linked to four water jets, are armed with eight CAIC C-803 AShMs as well as a ZEERI Type AK-630 close-in weapon system. The type provides a relatively stable missile platform, and can operate up to 400 nautical miles/nm (741 kilometres/km) offshore. More than 80 such vessels are in service, with estimates from builders Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding putting the cost at up to $50 million per vessel. There have been a number of regional media reports, as yet unconfirmed, that Pakistan plans to build vessels of this type under licence.





The People’s Liberation Army Navy ‘Houbei’ class FACs are in service in large numbers. These craft pose a potential threat to US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups operating in waters adjacent to China. (US Navy)
*India*
The PRC’s erstwhile rival India operates more than 20 FACs of various types, with the ‘Car Nicoba’ class now having prime responsibility for security and search and rescue within India’s Exclusive Economic Zone. These ships have been involved in a number of kinetic actions against pirates in recent years. The craft’s main armament is a Medak CRN91 30mm cannon, backed by a pair of machine guns, and KB Mashinostroyeniya 9K38 Igla surface-to-air missiles. A Furono navigation radar and a Bharat Electronics Limited Link-II tactical data link are also fitted. These vessels can reach 35 knots, and the final vessel in the 14-strong 330-tonneclass is currently under construction at Garden Reach Shipbuilding and Engineering (GRSE) at Kolkata. GRSE did not respond to requests for information on costs and other aspects of the project.

*Indonesia*
Expansion of the Indonesian FAC inventory is in progress, as Jakarta seeks to enhance surveillance and response capabilities in its coastal waters. Progressively supplementing existing larger types of FAC such as the ‘Todak’ class is a planned fleet, according to deputy defence minister Lieutenant General Sjafrie Sjamsoeddin, of at least 40 locally-built ‘KCR-40’ and ‘KCR-60’ class FACs. These new classes, under construction since 2012, have a main armament of CAIC/PT Pindad C-705 Indonesian/Chinese manufactured AShMs; the ‘KCR-40’ class has two of the missiles fitted, while the longer ‘KCR- 60’ class has four. Gun armament for the ‘KCR-40’ class is a 30mm CMS NG-18 cannon, and two 20mm Denel Vektor cannon, while the ‘KCR-60’ class features a BAE Systems Bofors 57mm cannon. Shipyards involved in the programme include PT PAL, PT Palindo and PT Citia, with a manufacturer’s estimated project cost of $10.2 million per vessel for the 40m (131ft) variant. According to PT PAL production director Mr. Edy Widarto, prospects for overseas manufacture of the vessel are also being explored. In terms of sensors, China North Industries (NORINCO) TR-47C and SR-47AG naval surveillance radars are carried by the vessels, while triple MAN V12 diesels enable a speed of about 30 knots (55.5km/h). Jakarta last year stated that, despite the prototype having been destroyed in a fire, the programme to build four 63m (206.6ft), waterjet-powered ‘X3K Klewang’ class missile-armed stealth trimaran FACs in Indonesia would continue. Nevertheless, on 16 February, constructors PT Lundin announced that only one example will be completed.

*Pakistan *
Pakistan operates a range of FACs of varying antiquity. The PRC, nowadays Pakistan’s prime supplier of naval vessels, delivered a new 570-tonne, 63m (207ft) FAC, the _Azmat _to Pakistan in 2012. This ship was constructed by the China Shipbuilding and Offshore Corporation (CSOC). Since then, a further example has been built in Pakistan by the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering works (KSEW) company, in co-operation with CSOC. The ship has been commissioned, while in April 2015 the first steel was cut on a third of class at KSEW. A fourth vessel is planned. Designed primarily for a littoral, armament of this 30 knot (56km/h) FAC consists of eight CAIC C-802 AShMs, a 23mm cannon and an AK-630 close-in weapon system. KSEW has quoted a unit cost of US$ 50 million per vessel.

*Philippine Navy *
The _Hukbong Dagat ng Pilipinas _(Philippine Navy) has a very mixed fleet of gun-armed FACs, featuring both indigenously-built craft and vessels acquired second-hand from other nations. The newest FACs are six Multi-Purpose Assault Craft (MPAC). These 40-knot (74km/h) assets, designed primarily for coastal and riverine use, can act as both assault craft and FACs, and can carry 16 troops for landing via a forward drop-ramp. The MPACs are armed with three machine guns. Three 15m (49ft) versions were built by Lung Teh of Taiwan; the others, constructed by Propmech in the Philippines, are 17m (56ft) long.





The Philippines Navy has six MPAC craft in service, with dual assault and FAC roles; some have seen active service. Three more are to be built jointly by Lung Teh and Propmech. (Lung Teh Shipbuilders)
Now, Manila is proceeding with a programme to build another three examples, with $5.7 million allocated for the project. In late February 2016 the Department of National Defence announced that the work on the new vessels will be shared between Lung Teh and Propmech. The projected craft will be optimised for FAC duties, and will carry a light surface-to-surface missile system, probably Rafael’s Spike. They will reportedly also be armed with a remotely-controlled 12.7 mm General Dynamics/US Ordnance M2HB machine gun, and two US Ordnance M60 7.62mm machine guns.

*Singapore*
The latest addition to Singapore’s littoral combatant inventory is the ‘Independence’ class, with the first of class having been launched by local shipbuilders ST Marine in June 2015. Jointly designed by Kockums (now Saab), and ST Marine, the 27-knot (50km/h) warship is larger and more capable than the ‘Fearless’ class patrol craft which it replaces. A strong armament suite consists of an OTO Melara 76mm gun, mounted forward together with a 12-cell vertical-launch system for the ships’ MBDA Mica SAM system. There are also two side-mounted OTO Melara Hitrole remote-controlled machine guns, and a Rafale Typhoon 25mm automatic cannon at the stern. Meanwhile, an aft flight deck aft can support operations by a medium helicopter, while a stern well enables the embarkation and launching of a rigid-hull inflatable boat. A novel feature of the ship is an integrated bridge and combat centre, with the ships’ sensor package including Thales’ NS-100 naval surveillance radar. ST Marine did not respond to requests for information on the cost of the ‘Independence’ class.





The Republic of Singapore Navy ‘Formidable’ class frigate and ‘Valour’ class corvettes. The new ‘Independence’ class helicopter-capable FACs will considerably enhance Singapore’s littoral surveillance and defence. (US Navy)
*Sri Lanka*
The Sri Lankan Navy’s Fast Attack Flotilla has an FAC order-of-battle which includes ‘Dvora 1’,’Dvora 2’ and ‘Dvora 3’ vessels plus ‘Shaldag’ class designs, and the locally-developed ‘Series III’ class. The 53-knot (98.1km/h) ‘Series III’ features a Rafale Typhoon weapon fitted with a 20mm Alliant Techsystems Bushmaster cannon. A Furuno FR 8250 radar is used for navigation and propulsion is provided by twin Deutz V16 diesel engines and two Arneson ASD 16 articulating surface drives.

*Taiwan*
Along with being a supplier of FACs Taiwan has in recent years bolstered its coastal and littoral naval fleet with twelve ‘Ching Chiang’ class vessels, and 30 ‘Kuang Hua’ class FACs, both equipped with AShMs. Taiwanese capabilities are now being further upgraded. At the end of 2014 the _Tuo Jiang_, the first of a new class of wave-piercing catamaran-hulled warships commenced trials. These 560-tonne 60.4m (198ft) long craft are being constructed by Lung Teh Shipbuilders. Lung Teh President Sheldon Huang told _Armada_ that eleven of the ships will be built. “They are offshore-capable gun and missile platforms, twin diesels linked to waterjets enabling a speed of 45 knots (83km/h), with a cruising speed of 25 knots (46km/h),” he said. Mr. Huang confirmed that the company is aiming to export the type. “We intend to market these vessels worldwide,” he said. Official estimate of the cost of the programme is $843.4 million. These new FACs are, for their size, very heavily armed. Their missile fit includes eight CSIST Hsiung Feng II, and eight Hsiung Feng III AShMs. There is a 76mm OTO Melara/Finmeccanica general purpose gun, and a Raytheon Phalanx close-in weapon system for air defence, as well as two 12.7mm machine guns, and two triple Mk.32 torpedo launchers. The advanced hull form of the ‘Ching Chiang’ class should enable fuel efficiency, seaworthiness and manoeuvrability, while the superstructure incorporates stealth features to reduce vulnerability to detection, and to guided missile attack. The ships are intended primarily for littoral warfare. However, they can operate at Sea State Seven (with waves up to nine metres/30ft in height), have a range of 2000nm (3706km), and could therefore also engage PRC warships far from Taiwan. The armament and performance of these latest Taiwanese warships should therefore pose some challenges for Beijing’s naval strategists.

*Republic of Korea *
On the northern coast of the East China Sea, the Republic of Korea’s (RoK) navy is seeing a major upgrade of its coastal and littoral capabilities, phasing in newly-constructed ‘Yoon Youngha’ class FACs. This class carries Agency for Defence Development/LIG Nex1 SSM-700K Haesseong AShMs, backed up by a Hyundai Wia 76mm gun. A total of 18 of the 570-tonne, 46m (151ft) long ‘Yoon Youngha’ class are planned to be constructed by Hanjin Heavy Industries and STX, and most are now in service. In terms of sensors, these ships carry an STX Radar SYS-100K and LIG Nex1 SPS-530K naval surveillance radars. For their propulsion, a combined MTU 12V 595 TE90 diesel engine and General Electric LM500 gas turbine propulsion systems, linked to water jets, enables a speed of over 40 knots (74km/). Hanjin has given a cost estimate of US$ 38 million per vessel.





The Republic of Korea Navy’s ‘Yun Youngha’ class FAC is more heavily armed than its predecessors, and enhances Seoul’s littoral water and coastal capabilities. A smaller variant is planned. (Republic of Korea Armed Forces)
*Vietnam*
Alongside the RoK, the Vietnam People’s Navy (VPN) is also concerned about Beijing’s naval machinations. Currently, the Vietnam People’s Navy (VPN) rely on the Russian-designed ‘Molniya’ class corvettes. Gas turbines give these 480-tonne, 56m (184ft) long vessels a top speed of 42 knots (78km/h). These main armament is 16 Raduga P-15 Termit or Tactical Missiles Corporation Kh-35U AShMs, backed up by a Gorky 76mm dual-purpose gun and two Tulamashzavod AK-630 close-in-weapon systems. Four are known to be in service with the VPN. Two more are currently under construction in Vietnam according to recent regional reports, with a further four expected to be constructed under licence in Vietnam at an undisclosed date.

*Summary*
Regional territorial disputes, and maritime crime, demand that Asia-Pacific navies maintain significant high and low intensity combat, coastal and littoral water intervention capabilities. It would, therefore, be surprising if new types of FACs, customised for single or multiple roles as required, did not continue to enter service with Asian naval forces in significant numbers.

_by Trevor Hollingsbee_

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## Zarvan

For country like Pakistan these Missile Boats carrying 6 to 8 Missiles each could be game changers if we can just increase range of Cruise Missiles being used in these ships. If we can increase the range of HARBAH from just 450 KM to 800 KM or even more than it would become a big huge monster and give nightmares to India. Harbah already has achieved ship to land attack capability so just increase the range of Missile and induct a lot more FAC AZMAT and than unleash hell on Mumbai and Goa and Bangluru.

@HRK @Tipu7 @Rafi @Arsalan

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## Safriz

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 640152
> 
> View attachment 640153
> 
> View attachment 640154
> 
> For country like Pakistan these Missile Boats carrying 6 to 8 Missiles each could be game changers if we can just increase range of Cruise Missiles being used in these ships. If we can increase the range of HARBAH from just 450 KM to 800 KM or even more than it would just a monster and give nightmares to India. Harbah already has achieved ship to land attack capability so just increase the range of Missile and induct a lot more FAC AZMAT and than unleash hell on Mumbai and Goa and Bangluru.
> 
> @HRK @Tipu7 @Rafi @Arsalan


450 km range for missiles correlates with the maximum instrument range of the AWACS we have.
You need a way of detecting the target and get targeting information to fire the missile .

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## Zarvan

Safriz said:


> 450 km range for missiles correlates with the maximum instrument range of the AWACS we have.
> You need a way of detecting the target and get targeting information to fire the missile .


Than we need to work on increasing range and other systems related to it, because you can target several Major Indian cities and towns and Military installations with these small boats and maintain a distance from Indian waters.


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## Safriz

Zarvan said:


> Than we need to work on increasing range and other systems related to it, because you can target several Major Indian cities and towns and Military installations with these small boats and maintain a distance from Indian waters.


For targeting cities or fixed land targets you don't radars , only coordinates.


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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> Than we need to work on increasing range and other systems related to it, because you can target several Major Indian cities and towns and Military installations with these small boats and maintain a distance from Indian waters.




Azmat class had 1000 nautical mile /1900 km /1200 miles range so for fac more than enough to cover its aor

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-missile/

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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 640152
> 
> View attachment 640153
> 
> View attachment 640154
> 
> For country like Pakistan these Missile Boats carrying 6 to 8 Missiles each could be game changers if we can just increase range of Cruise Missiles being used in these ships. If we can increase the range of HARBAH from just 450 KM to 800 KM or even more than it would just a monster and give nightmares to India. Harbah already has achieved ship to land attack capability so just increase the range of Missile and induct a lot more FAC AZMAT and than unleash hell on Mumbai and Goa and Bangluru.
> 
> @HRK @Tipu7 @Rafi @Arsalan


FACM primary task is to strike enemy surface vessels. For this role, PN FACM are sufficiently equipped with sufficient range missiles. Only thing needed now is more numbers. PN should increase the size of its FACM fleet to 12 from 8.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> FACM primary task is to strike enemy surface vessels. For this role, PN FACM are sufficiently equipped with sufficient range missiles. Only thing needed now is more numbers. PN should increase the size of its FACM fleet to 12 from 8.


India used Missile boats to target Karachi on 1971. And it's not holy order to only use it for enemy ships. Also you have already showed the intention to use it for land attack role by using Azmat to test land attack version of Harbah



khanasifm said:


> Azmat class had 1000 nautical mile /1900 km /1200 miles range so for fac more than enough to cover its aor
> 
> https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/azmat-class-fast-attack-craft-missile/


That is the range of the ship not the Missile, if you have to attack let say a Military installation in Mumbai. You have to come 450 KM close to Mumbai and that is dangerous. Increase the range of Missile and unleash hell. These ships could do a damage which India won't forget plus they need less crew. Russia is big example of how it can be and should be done. They use Missile Boats or very very small Corvettes to fire very long Range Kalibr Cruise Missile. Those ships have very few crew.



Safriz said:


> For targeting cities or fixed land targets you don't radars , only coordinates.


Yes but if Missile range is only 450 KM that means ship has to be at least 450 KM away from Mumbai or Goa or Bangluru and that is not a safe place to be.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO ... for AShW/LACM, the PN should try designing an cheaper, less complex variant of the FAC(M). 

Basically, strip it down to the missile launchers, CMS, and means to receive off-board sensor and targeting support from frigates or aircraft.

Don't worry about anything else. Just station the FACs well within our waters, and fire full-ranged Baburs at land targets, and supersonic AShM at ships.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... for AShW/LACM, the PN should try designing an cheaper, less complex variant of the FAC(M).
> 
> Basically, strip it down to the missile launchers, CMS, and means to receive off-board sensor and targeting support from frigates or aircraft.
> 
> Don't worry about anything else. Just station the FACs well within our waters, and fire full-ranged Baburs at land targets, and supersonic AShM at ships.


And who will guide it?


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... for AShW/LACM, the PN should try designing an cheaper, less complex variant of the FAC(M).
> 
> Basically, strip it down to the missile launchers, CMS, and means to receive off-board sensor and targeting support from frigates or aircraft.
> 
> Don't worry about anything else. Just station the FACs well within our waters, and fire full-ranged Baburs at land targets, and supersonic AShM at ships.


You mean 750 KM Range Babur, that is exactly what I am saying we need a 800 KM range Babur on these ships and need more of these ships 12 to 16 of these and Mumbai will face hell. Also Goa and Bangluru



Pakistani Fighter said:


> And who will guide it?


For long range coordinates can be fed in Missiles. Am I right @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> For long range coordinates can be fed in Missiles. Am I right @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Hmmm so means no Radar required for it? What about using it for Long Range Anti Ship Weapon? Who will guide it?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> You mean 750 KM Range Babur, that is exactly what I am saying we need a 800 KM range Babur on these ships and need more of these ships 12 to 16 of these and Mumbai will face hell. Also Goa and Bangluru
> 
> 
> For long range coordinates can be fed in Missiles. Am I right @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Well, we should be developing Babur's range even further, i.e., aim for 1,000+ km.

For land-attacks, you'd feed the target info into the missiles directly, they'll go by that (using INS/GPS).

But for anti-ship ops, you need a radar to track the target and guide the missile to the vicinity until it's close enough to solely rely on its own seeker. This off-board sensor can be aircraft, frigates, etc, maybe even a drone.

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## Zarvan

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Hmmm so means no Radar required for it? What about using it for Long Range Anti Ship Weapon? Who will guide it?


For a fixed target on land No



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Hmmm so means no Radar required for it? What about using it for Long Range Anti Ship Weapon? Who will guide it?


That is required for moving ships and other such moving targets

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> I am saying we need a 800 KM range Babur on these ships and need more of these ships 12 to 16 of these and Mumbai


Your Land Launched Babur can hit Mumbai too

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## Zarvan

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Your Land Launched Babur can hit Mumbai too


That doesn't mean your Navy can't and should not do it and no land attack Babur range is only 750 KM. Not enough for Mumbai


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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> That doesn't mean your Navy can't and should not do it and no land attack Babur range is only 750 KM. Not enough for Mumbai


Badin to Mumbai is 745 km

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## Zarvan

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Badin to Mumbai is 745 km


You should always have a margin of 80 to 100 KM

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## aziqbal

I am a big fan for the Azmat Class and we should certainly be building the 5th and 6th ships

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## imranyounus

PN had invested quite a lot in this ship. But with Type 54 yarmook and Jinah class ships now in progress there seems to be a some what question mark on Azmat role. 

Its not as fast as latest FAC. and any plan to upgrade it to a mini corvette seems illogical considering we are developing yermook class ships.

what is the future of Azamat. I guess a bigger size around 1000 tons with more LACM and ASM may be considered as a missile corvette. As a cheep way to boost size of our Navy. but than why invest in Damen ships.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

imranyounus said:


> PN had invested quite a lot in this ship. But with Type 54 yarmook and Jinah class ships now in progress there seems to be a some what question mark on Azmat role.
> 
> Its not as fast as latest FAC. and any plan to upgrade it to a mini corvette seems illogical considering we are developing yermook class ships.
> 
> what is the future of Azamat. I guess a bigger size around 1000 tons with more LACM and ASM may be considered as a missile corvette. As a cheep way to boost size of our Navy. but than why invest in Damen ships.


I think the most logical outcome is to make the Azmat/FAC(M) into an even cheaper design. Basically work it into a pure LACM carrier, i.e., no sensors, just rely on data-link to off-board sensors, etc.

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## imranyounus

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the most logical outcome is to make the Azmat/FAC(M) into an even cheaper design. Basically work it into a pure LACM carrier, i.e., no sensors, just rely on data-link to off-board sensors, etc.


 definitely a logical step in current scenario. But need to get little bigger. if PN can add 2 more launcher with data links and small radar such a ship can be very useful in both stand alone deployment to target indian land target or as a support ship in a full flotilla. 

ideally a flotilla consisting of 4 larg ships, one Tupe 54 one Ada one F 22 one Yarmook and 4 Azmat class missile ships will have sufficient fire power at sea. 

And PN can have 4 of this combination add one submarine in the mix along with one aircraft. while old F 21 and Augusta 70 can be deployed in west to protect gawadar

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the most logical outcome is to make the Azmat/FAC(M) into an even cheaper design. Basically work it into a pure LACM carrier, i.e., no sensors, just rely on data-link to off-board sensors, etc.



I think that Azmat can make sense as the smallest all round combatant, at the lowest price. Here are some ways to go low price:

1. CIWS in front and rear (no main gun)
2. 6x locally developed short range SAM just behind the forward CIWS (since no main gun, there is some space and weight opportunity
3. Navalized version of JF-17 radar (assuming its actually being produced inhouse)
4. Armed drone
5. sonar and ASW rocket launcher
6. 6x Harbah

While @Bilal Khan 777 noted that the ship is limited and cannot easily be stretched, I think a minor stretch of 5 feet is possible.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> I think that Azmat can make sense as the smallest all round combatant, at the lowest price. Here are some ways to go low price:
> 
> 1. CIWS in front and rear (no main gun)
> 2. 6x locally developed short range SAM just behind the forward CIWS (since no main gun, there is some space and weight opportunity
> 3. Navalized version of JF-17 radar (assuming its actually being produced inhouse)
> 4. Armed drone
> 5. sonar and ASW rocket launcher
> 6. 6x Harbah
> 
> While @Bilal Khan 777 noted that the ship is limited and cannot easily be stretched, I think a minor stretch of 5 feet is possible.


I think PN/MTC should look at evolving the Azmat FAC into something like the Sa'ar 72 (but minus the helicopter deck, since you hate those so much). Adding a recessed VLS might be tough, but the Denel Rheinmetall Munition Cheetah CRAM/PDMS can fit top-level (it's apparently light enough).







https://www.israel-shipyards.com/naval-003.asp

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## GumNaam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think PN/MTC should look at evolving the Azmat FAC into something like the Sa'ar 72 (but minus the helicopter deck, since you hate those so much). Adding a recessed VLS might be tough, but the Denel Rheinmetall Munition Cheetah CRAM/PDMS can fit top-level (it's apparently light enough).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.israel-shipyards.com/naval-003.asp


@Armchair whats wrong with having a helicopter on deck? it only helps increase the eyes and anti-sub warfare capabilities of the ship when no AWACS or P3C orion is immediately available...

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think PN/MTC should look at evolving the Azmat FAC into something like the Sa'ar 72 (but minus the helicopter deck, since you hate those so much). Adding a recessed VLS might be tough, but the Denel Rheinmetall Munition Cheetah CRAM/PDMS can fit top-level (it's apparently light enough).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.israel-shipyards.com/naval-003.asp


The way Navy has evolved OPVs and Milgem, it seems if Navy will develop new FAC-M then it will be a comprehensively modified solution with technology absorbed from foreign sources.



GumNaam said:


> @Armchair whats wrong with having a helicopter on deck? it only helps increase the eyes and anti-sub warfare capabilities of the ship when no AWACS or P3C orion is immediately available...


Add unnecessary complexities considering the fact that these vessels are primarily meant for coastal defense. Heli borne operations are more suited for larger vessels like Corvettes we are getting.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Helicopter are must , need to hunt the submarines 

The current Azmat class design is great just need to make it slightly bigger


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> The way Navy has evolved OPVs and Milgem, it seems if Navy will develop new FAC-M then it will be a comprehensively modified solution with technology absorbed from foreign sources.
> 
> 
> Add unnecessary complexities considering the fact that these vessels are primarily meant for coastal defense. Heli borne operations are more suited for larger vessels like Corvettes we are getting.


Yes, but remember, the PN/MTC has actually absorbed the FAC(M) design. FAC(M)-4 was built without any OEM help -- MTC and KSEW worked with the input suppliers directly, and even made some design changes. So, it follows that if they want to make a small corvette/big FAC, they'll try doing it on their own.

I think the 2 roles to focus on with such a ship are (1) ASW and (2) AShW/LACM. The advantage of such a small -- and low-cost -- ship is that we can cover more areas, so boost our ASW coverage. We would also have more attack vectors for long-range strikes and A2/AD.

I am not too concerned about AAW at this level since these would operate well within our waters. Moreover, we can post larger frigates to provide area-wide AAW coverage. But if you can add SHORAD (10-15 km) at a decent cost, then why not?

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think PN/MTC should look at evolving the Azmat FAC into something like the Sa'ar 72 (but minus the helicopter deck, since you hate those so much). Adding a recessed VLS might be tough, but the Denel Rheinmetall Munition Cheetah CRAM/PDMS can fit top-level (it's apparently light enough).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.israel-shipyards.com/naval-003.asp




But then we run into issues, i know the Sa'ar series can only be operated in very calm/low sea states, im unsure about the azmat class but loading it to the brim like the Sa'ars could be an issue. A fun choice would be to turn the Azmat into an AAW frigate with limited anti surface capability, i guess like having them protect other very vunerable aspects of the fleet, i.e F-22Ps which have honestly, terrible defensive capabilities. God the FM-90 is such a poor system, the F-22Ps are literally sitting ducks for the BrahMos, they'd have to rely on CIWS to take it out since the FM-90 cant engage AShMs. But i feel like thats a bit of a dreamy/unrealistic option. However, a fleet based off of smaller surface combatants with capable munitions isn't a bad shout in my opinion. Say we do decide to have a fleet of 12 for example larger ships, have a buttload of smaller FAC sized ships, have them carry out dedicated roles, i.e AAW or ASh roles would be an interesting and cost effective take. Bit of a wild idea lol. CAMM could be a genuine candidate for such an AAW corvette

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> But then we run into issues, i know the Sa'ar series can only be operated in very calm/low sea states, im unsure about the azmat class but loading it to the brim like the Sa'ars could be an issue. A fun choice would be to turn the Azmat into an AAW frigate with limited anti surface capability, i guess like having them protect other very vunerable aspects of the fleet, i.e F-22Ps which have honestly, terrible defensive capabilities. God the FM-90 is such a poor system, the F-22Ps are literally sitting ducks for the BrahMos, they'd have to rely on CIWS to take it out since the FM-90 cant engage AShMs. But i feel like thats a bit of a dreamy/unrealistic option. However, a fleet based off of smaller surface combatants with capable munitions isn't a bad shout in my opinion. Say we do decide to have a fleet of 12 for example larger ships, have a buttload of smaller FAC sized ships, have them carry out dedicated roles, i.e AAW or ASh roles would be an interesting and cost effective take. Bit of a wild idea lol. CAMM could be a genuine candidate for such an AAW corvette


tbh it's not outlandish from a technical standpoint. The biggest bottleneck is cost.

That said, they can opt to make the MILGEM-J a beast. Use the 2x3 cells for hot-swapping subsonic-AShM/LACM (i.e., Harbah) and the supersonic-cruising AShM. Use the VLS to quad-pack 32 CAMM-ERs and 8 Aster-30s. Then build like 8-12 more of these ships.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh it's not outlandish from a technical standpoint. The biggest bottleneck is cost.
> 
> That said, they can opt to make the MILGEM-J a beast. Use the 2x3 cells for hot-swapping subsonic-AShM/LACM (i.e., Harbah) and the supersonic-cruising AShM. Use the VLS to quad-pack 32 CAMM-ERs and 8 Aster-30s. Then build like 8-12 more of these ships.




Definitely, would really add to the fleet.


Would it really effect cost that much though? Surely its a more cost effective means of an AAW capability, a more numerous one at that too. Have like, a very barebones ship as you suggested but then have them just filled to the brim with the A-43 or ExLS, former being the most accessible ofc and then have them get their targeting data from either another sensor suite or potentially have them carry some form of smaller radar for such a role. Would be a pretty good means of countering the BrahMos, could then look at the PN purchasing land based systems to protect strategic assets like ports and bases from the IN to prevent situations like those in '71.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Definitely, would really add to the fleet.
> 
> 
> Would it really effect cost that much though? Surely its a more cost effective means of an AAW capability, a more numerous one at that too. Have like, a very barebones ship as you suggested but then have them just filled to the brim with the A-43 or ExLS, former being the most accessible ofc and then have them get their targeting data from either another sensor suite or potentially have them carry some form of smaller radar for such a role. Would be a pretty good means of countering the BrahMos, could then look at the PN purchasing land based systems to protect strategic assets like ports and bases from the IN to prevent situations like those in '71.


Hopefully the bottleneck is relative...as in...it costs more, but isn't prohibitive.

But yea, I like the idea of small, specialized ships. That said, I would make ASW a standard feature across all as we would benefit from maxing out our ASW coverage. Just as we'll try to leverage busy waters to damage India, I think the IN will attempt the same with its submarines. Of course, I do believe in the adage, 'a submarine is the best sub hunter...' so mini-SSKs are a good idea, but adding ASW to new FAC(M)s might be cheaper/easier.

@Akh1112 

How about this...? Damen Sigma Fast Attac 7310. 





https://products.damen.com/-/media/...te-7310/Product_Sheet_Sigma_Corvette_7310.pdf

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Hopefully the bottleneck is relative...as in...it costs more, but isn't prohibitive.
> 
> But yea, I like the idea of small, specialized ships. That said, I would make ASW a standard feature across all as we would benefit from maxing out our ASW coverage. Just as we'll try to leverage busy waters to damage India, I think the IN will attempt the same with its submarines. Of course, I do believe in the adage, 'a submarine is the best sub hunter...' so mini-SSKs are a good idea, but adding ASW to new FAC(M)s might be cheaper/easier.
> 
> @Akh1112
> 
> How about this...? Damen Sigma Fast Attac 7310.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://products.damen.com/-/media/...te-7310/Product_Sheet_Sigma_Corvette_7310.pdf




Definitely interesting, i feel like the sigma would be a really good candidate for the ExLS or the smaller version of the MK47, i forget what its called, it carried ESSM's i assume as its medium ranged system. Though, it is quite large, like, quite. 900T displacement vs the Azmat's what, like 500T? Also, id agree with what you say. Perhaps the PN should look at maximising their assets by diverting funds to smaller, relatively capable force multipliers, smaller SSK's, specialised ships alongside ISTAR uav's etc to support the larger, more capable surface combattants, if anything, small, specialised and numerous platforms could potentially even be more of a threat to the IN than the full on variants. 

I feel like perhaps the PN should use the Sigma/Sa'ar for inspiration but then again, that is what the Ada class are, their cost is a real issue though, thats why i proposed a potential variant based off of the Azmat since they can be procured in larger numbers and modified sufficiently due to the in house knowledge and expertise of the platform. for the SSKs, a very good choice would be the French Andastra class, i'm sure the Indians will throw a fuss but they have no customers/orders, im sure KSEW could be able to get a contract for local production. They share like 70% of their components with the Scorpene so that would be nice on cost grounds however they only displace 855t vs the Scorpenes 2000t, also they're equipped with AIP which is a nice bonus. Whaddya think?

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Hopefully the bottleneck is relative...as in...it costs more, but isn't prohibitive.
> 
> But yea, I like the idea of small, specialized ships. That said, I would make ASW a standard feature across all as we would benefit from maxing out our ASW coverage. Just as we'll try to leverage busy waters to damage India, I think the IN will attempt the same with its submarines. Of course, I do believe in the adage, 'a submarine is the best sub hunter...' so mini-SSKs are a good idea, but adding ASW to new FAC(M)s might be cheaper/easier.
> 
> @Akh1112
> 
> How about this...? Damen Sigma Fast Attac 7310.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://products.damen.com/-/media/...te-7310/Product_Sheet_Sigma_Corvette_7310.pdf


This Ship is love in first sight. 
But as you mentioned before, PN will follow the route of Azmat class design based vessels.
Once there was a requirement for 4-6 more vessels (considering the fact we couldn't arm our MRTP33 with SSM) quoted back in 2016. I don't know where that requirement stands now. Still valid or compensated after induction of Yarmook class corvettes.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think PN/MTC should look at evolving the Azmat FAC into something like the Sa'ar 72 (but minus the helicopter deck, since you hate those so much). Adding a recessed VLS might be tough, but the Denel Rheinmetall Munition Cheetah CRAM/PDMS can fit top-level (it's apparently light enough).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.israel-shipyards.com/naval-003.asp



Nice one. Thanks for sharing. Sa'ar won't survive in Pak sea states, they are top heavy and overcrowded. 



GumNaam said:


> @Armchair whats wrong with having a helicopter on deck? it only helps increase the eyes and anti-sub warfare capabilities of the ship when no AWACS or P3C orion is immediately available...



I love helicopter decks, don't listen to @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

I just like them on bigger platforms, nothing below 1500 tons should have a helicopter hangar specially in the Sea States that the Indian Ocean offers. 

No problem if you are in the pond the Europeans call the Mediterranean.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the 2 roles to focus on with such a ship are (1) ASW and (2) AShW/LACM. The advantage of such a small -- and low-cost -- ship is that we can cover more areas, so boost our ASW coverage. We would also have more attack vectors for long-range strikes and A2/AD.



Summed up perfectly what I think! Thanks.


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## Tank131

I would be up to upsize (slightly) and up arm the Azmat design to say a 850t OR even double the size to make a light corvette. Give it a bow mounted sonar and instead of a RHIB launch deck give it a towed array. Equipped with 2 triple torpedo tubes and 2 rocket propelled depth charge launchers like RDC-32. Keep the 6 AShM/LACM in Harba, but change the rear ak-630 for an 8 cell FL-3000N and replace the 30mm SMASH main gun for a Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10 or if diplomatically possible, get PANTSIR-M (giving 1 CIWS and 14 short range SAM) OR keep the AK630 as is and bolt a To-2MKM with 16 9m338 missiles (15km range) instead of a main gun. 

A Small helipad to launch a VTOL/helicopter UAV which can be housed in a small telescopic hangar. It could be equipped for different missions with either dipped sonar array, an AESA radar like seaspray 5000e, or anti-tank missiles for use against small fast craft, depending on the mission. China has a number of VTOL UAV which should be able to fit the role inlcludong this new one which was seen on a Type 075 LHD

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/07/was-a-vtol-uav-spotted-aboard-chinas-type-075-lhd/

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> I would be up to upsize (slightly) and up arm the Azmat design to say a 850t OR even double the size to make a light corvette. Give it a bow mounted sonar and instead of a RHIB launch deck give it a towed array. Equipped with 2 triple torpedo tubes and 2 rocket propelled depth charge launchers like RDC-32. Keep the 6 AShM/LACM in Harba, but change the rear ak-630 for an 8 cell FL-3000N and replace the 30mm SMASH main gun for a Type 1130 with 6 HQ-10 or if diplomatically possible, get PANTSIR-M (giving 1 CIWS and 14 short range SAM) OR keep the AK630 as is and bolt a To-2MKM with 16 9m338 missiles (15km range) instead of a main gun.
> 
> A Small helipad to launch a VTOL/helicopter UAV which can be housed in a small telescopic hangar. It could be equipped for different missions with either dipped sonar array, an AESA radar like seaspray 5000e, or anti-tank missiles for use against small fast craft, depending on the mission. China has a number of VTOL UAV which should be able to fit the role inlcludong this new one which was seen on a Type 075 LHD
> 
> https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/07/was-a-vtol-uav-spotted-aboard-chinas-type-075-lhd/



Interesting thoughts. Here is what I would do (bit similar to yours but different still):
DJI drone
AESA radar of Block 3 adapted to maritime use
I'd go with your ASW solution
Gokdeniz CIWS at A position and aft
Local PDMS under development (reportedly progressing well by Ark Angel)
Supposedly this PDMS is IR based. When combined with the block 3 based naval radar - you have a real defense capability to a 10 km radius. Which is decent. 
I'd go for 8x Harbah or the new hypersonic which also has exceeded all expectations in its development (source: Ark Angel)
EW would be integral to these ships. 

For the above to happen, I'd stretch the forward section 3 feet and the aft by 1 feet. This would take the ship to bout 600-650 tons. 

This essentially is a mini-corvette. Such ships used to be designated _Sloop-of-War _in olden times.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> Interesting thoughts. Here is what I would do (bit similar to yours but different still):
> DJI drone
> AESA radar of Block 3 adapted to maritime use
> I'd go with your ASW solution
> Gokdeniz CIWS at A position and aft
> Local PDMS under development (reportedly progressing well by Ark Angel)
> Supposedly this PDMS is IR based. When combined with the block 3 based naval radar - you have a real defense capability to a 10 km radius. Which is decent.
> I'd go for 8x Harbah or the new hypersonic which also has exceeded all expectations in its development (source: Ark Angel)
> EW would be integral to these ships.
> 
> For the above to happen, I'd stretch the forward section 3 feet and the aft by 1 feet. This would take the ship to bout 600-650 tons.
> 
> This essentially is a mini-corvette. Such ships used to be designated _Sloop-of-War _in olden times.


What do you think a cost of such a venture would be?
A


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## Armchair

araz said:


> What do you think a cost of such a venture would be?
> A



Would be hard for me to make an estimate as I don't know current prices and there are a lot of intangibles such as scale of local production of subsystems (larger the scale, greater the economies). Also no idea how much Turkish CIWS cost.

If Pak produces 10 - 20 units (and manages to export some of the excess units), perhaps this would be a very low cost acquistion. 

Local shipbuilding is not as efficient as Chinese, so costs more. If KSEW can be brought up to scratch by reorganization and financial flotation, again, costs can perhaps be more manageable. 

Short answer - I don't know.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


>


Remove the Helicopter Deck and Install Pantisr M

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## Aamir Hussain

Need to enhance the speed of the platforms. They are all under thirty knots and low on endurance too.

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Interesting thoughts. Here is what I would do (bit similar to yours but different still):
> DJI drone
> AESA radar of Block 3 adapted to maritime use
> I'd go with your ASW solution
> Gokdeniz CIWS at A position and aft
> Local PDMS under development (reportedly progressing well by Ark Angel)
> Supposedly this PDMS is IR based. When combined with the block 3 based naval radar - you have a real defense capability to a 10 km radius. Which is decent.
> I'd go for 8x Harbah or the new hypersonic which also has exceeded all expectations in its development (source: Ark Angel)
> EW would be integral to these ships.
> 
> For the above to happen, I'd stretch the forward section 3 feet and the aft by 1 feet. This would take the ship to bout 600-650 tons.
> 
> This essentially is a mini-corvette. Such ships used to be designated _Sloop-of-War _in olden times.



I like the idea but for me i think enlarging it a bit to enable the landing pad for a vtol uav and antisub capability would relieve a lot of pressure from the frigate as well.

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## Tank131

araz said:


> What do you think a cost of such a venture would be?
> A


I thinknit would depend on the number of units though i would imagine you would need to not only buy the new components but also bigger engines to deal with displacement change. It would add probably 20-30% to the cost but with economies of scale the unit cost couls go fmsown if you end up getting 10-15 light corvettes.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I was thinking may be we should have option

*a) Azmat I* : Comes with Helicopter and *Anti Submarine* /*Anti Ship role
b) Azmat II* : Comes with a *Anti Air defense* and *Anti Ship Role
c) Azmat III: *With a extended body* offering helicopter / SAM / Anti Ship role
*
That way a combination of 12 ships can offer nice structure covering sub water and above in air threats


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## syed_yusuf

In my opinion the next iteration of azmat class should be in line with Bunyan M class of Russia . Appx 1000 tons and 78 meter long top equipment and quality sensors a perfect pocket destroyer of PN

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

syed_yusuf said:


> In my opinion the next iteration of azmat class should be in line with Bunyan M class of Russia . Appx 1000 tons and 78 meter long top equipment and quality sensors a perfect pocket destroyer of PN
> 
> View attachment 648442




Navy tend to avoid saying the "D" word, tug boats and boats are preferred
We have not inducted a ship in D class for last 70 years


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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> I like the idea but for me i think enlarging it a bit to enable the landing pad for a vtol uav and antisub capability would relieve a lot of pressure from the frigate as well.



According to Bilal Khan 777 who did a technical analysis of the ship, they don't have the structural capacity to be enlarged (they have already been enlarged from the base architectural design to max). I've still added 4 feet, since a marginal change (in my mind) is still possible.

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> According to Bilal Khan 777 who did a technical analysis of the ship, they don't have the structural capacity to be enlarged (they have already been enlarged from the base architectural design to max). I've still added 4 feet, since a marginal change (in my mind) is still possible.



Frankly evem if its not possible to enlarge, they cam still rearrange the layout and change weapons systems and electronics to greatly improve the ship. Swapping the SMASH 30mm cannon for a Type 1130 (ala Type 022 FACs) along with 6 HQ-10 and replace and put an 8 cell FL-3000N in place of the Ak-630. Replace thr radars with more modern long range radars like Kronos from Selex.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> Frankly evem if its not possible to enlarge, they cam still rearrange the layout and change weapons systems and electronics to greatly improve the ship. Swapping the SMASH 30mm cannon for a Type 1130 (ala Type 022 FACs) along with 6 HQ-10 and replace and put an 8 cell FL-3000N in place of the Ak-630. Replace thr radars with more modern long range radars like Kronos from Selex.



Well, even I would like that but there are technical parameters that we civies and non architects don't understand. Like what happens if you put a heavy 1130 instead of 30mm SMASH? What happens to sea keeping characteristics or even basic design stability. Remember, these are steel vessels trying to float on water...

When the weight distribution moves forward then it creates a large number of problems, drastically reducing performance on a wide variety of parameters, even down to ability to maneuver and speed. 

Large radars are also:
1. Heavy, and heavy in exactly the wrong place - creating top imbalances
2. Require far superior power supply. 
3. Takes space

Again, sounds wonderful for us but may sound insane for actual engineers and architects that do this for a living. Just my 0.02.


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## imranyounus

Azmat is a small ship. PN is in process of developing more than one ship and each one is designed for specific puspose. 

Azmat class being small will be used mostly as support ship rather th s n stand alon multipurpose. It will be equipped with simple and limited systems. for multiple purpos there is Jinnah class. 

They probably should look at some thing large too. But as demand for bigger ship will be limited its not worth taking complete local root for same.

The point to be more focused on is developing different ships for different roles. Azmat in its current size looks fine and we could develop more such ships with single purpose. I.e
for missile boat.
Anti submarine and colud be used as submarine hunter. 
And one can carry anti air system. 

A single design with swing roles rather than multi role.

such a concept will be more effective in support role. With bigger ships thay can add good value. And in stand alone operations they will be as effective too such as on submarine hunting, Land attack, Anti ship etc in case PN plans specific tast.

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## ziaulislam

the only edition that azzamt might benefit from is a short range AAM and a good radar..

azmat wasnt built for antisub warfare..

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Well, even I would like that but there are technical parameters that we civies and non architects don't understand. Like what happens if you put a heavy 1130 instead of 30mm SMASH? What happens to sea keeping characteristics or even basic design stability. Remember, these are steel vessels trying to float on water...
> 
> When the weight distribution moves forward then it creates a large number of problems, drastically reducing performance on a wide variety of parameters, even down to ability to maneuver and speed.
> 
> Large radars are also:
> 1. Heavy, and heavy in exactly the wrong place - creating top imbalances
> 2. Require far superior power supply.
> 3. Takes space
> 
> Again, sounds wonderful for us but may sound insane for actual engineers and architects that do this for a living. Just my 0.02.



Absolutely what you are saying is true, that is why i listed the the Kronos which has multiple layouts and is designed to fit in the superstructure of the ship. With respect to 1130 it is a suggestion/placeholder. Something like the ak630 (which albeit is much smaller) on the 022 houbei facs. But you and i can both appreciate that with the right motivation and $$ the shit can be more than it is (though it holds impressive firepower for what it is). Just to give an example of what it could be, the Hamina class of Finland is half the size (250t) with 8 cell vls for Umkhonto ir, 4 AShM, 1 rail for depth charges, a 57mm cannon, and 2 12.7mm guns and a MASS system. A 200km range radar like TRS-3D/16ES provides excellent situational awareness. Layout and systems are everything.

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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> Absolutely what you are saying is true, that is why i listed the the Kronos which has multiple layouts and is designed to fit in the superstructure of the ship. With respect to 1130 it is a suggestion/placeholder. Something like the ak630 (which albeit is much smaller) on the 022 houbei facs. But you and i can both appreciate that with the right motivation and $$ the shit can be more than it is (though it holds impressive firepower for what it is). Just to give an example of what it could be, the Hamina class of Finland is half the size (250t) with 8 cell vls for Umkhonto ir, 4 AShM, 1 rail for depth charges, a 57mm cannon, and 2 12.7mm guns and a MASS system. A 200km range radar like TRS-3D/16ES provides excellent situational awareness. Layout and systems are everything.



Hamina class is made with carbon fiber - Azmat is made with good ol' steel : )

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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> Hamina class is made with carbon fiber - Azmat is made with good ol' steel : )



What they are made of is not the point. The systems and layout is. The steel will keep the costs lower.


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## Armchair

Tank131 said:


> What they are made of is not the point. The systems and layout is. The steel will keep the costs lower.



It is quite a point because when you talk about Hamina class being 250 tons, with carbon fiber, that 250 tons is a lot bigger - and I mean a lot bigger than a steel made 250 ton ship. Then there are more complex issues related to engineering that make many things possible / difficult regarding various material usage. Issues of top heaviness decreases when lighter materials are used. 

Anyways, I'm getting tired of giving engineering lessons... exhausted from the last few posts of having to do that.


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## Tank131

Armchair said:


> It is quite a point because when you talk about Hamina class being 250 tons, with carbon fiber, that 250 tons is a lot bigger - and I mean a lot bigger than a steel made 250 ton ship. Then there are more complex issues related to engineering that make many things possible / difficult regarding various material usage. Issues of top heaviness decreases when lighter materials are used.
> 
> Anyways, I'm getting tired of giving engineering lessons... exhausted from the last few posts of having to do that.


Well i for one always enjoy your insight. With that said i appreciate the difference in size you can achieve using a lighter material (though the Azmat is a good 40ft longer than the Hamina despite having the same beam meaning it is definitely may have a higher propensity to roll, and i believe it actually has a taller superstructure, the point is with better systems such as kronos, you may get rid of the mast and create more deck space and improve the balance and layout to allow for additional or better weapons systems without huge changes to the manufacturing processes and overall ship design.

That being said these are all just mental gymnastics. Thanks for the indulgence.

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## Aamir Hussain

Having a helo landing pad is not beneficial on this type of a boat. Should have used the space to put in CWIS atleast.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Aamir Hussain said:


> Having a helo landing pad is not beneficial on this type of a boat. Should have used the space to put in CWIS atleast.


which Azmat FAC has helo landing pad ???


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## Aamir Hussain

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> which Azmat FAC has helo landing pad ???


 This was in response to a comment by Bilal Khan where he shared pic of Sa'ar 72. Should have replied to it instead of posting it this way as it becomes confusing.

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## Armchair

Aamir Hussain said:


> This was in response to a comment by Bilal Khan where he shared pic of Sa'ar 72. Should have replied to it instead of posting it this way as it becomes confusing.



Exactly what I was saying. What are your thoughts of arming them with the locally developed PDMS, assuming development is successful? 

Also, since ASW equipment has dramatically shrunk in size and cost, what about some basic ASW capability, since there seems to be some space in the rear? These two upgrades would dramatically increase the capability of the ship.

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## Dazzler



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## Tamiyah

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 664962


The fourth one?
Wasn't this supposed to be different from the previous?


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## Dazzler

Tamiyah said:


> The fourth one?
> Wasn't this supposed to be different from the previous?


It's the 4th, will have Harbah cms

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## ziaulislam

I wish they add FL 3000 short range air defense 
And decent radar to make them truely useful

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## syed_yusuf

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 664962


this is an old pic


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## syed_yusuf

Any update on the fourth ship


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## Inception-06

syed_yusuf said:


> Any update on the fourth ship


already produced and inducted! 



http://www.modp.gov.pk/SiteImage/Publication/Two%20Years%20Performance%20Report-MoDP.pdf


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## mzain

Produced but not inducted yet

Sent from my XT1609 using Defence.pk mobile app


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

After the , induction the full strength would be 4 Units with possible arrival of more ships down the line remains to be seen which ships will be prioritized


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## syed_yusuf

Inception-06 said:


> already produced and inducted!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.modp.gov.pk/SiteImage/Publication/Two%20Years%20Performance%20Report-MoDP.pdf


That was launching ceremony


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Fourth , Fast Attack Boat I believe is called "Haibat"

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## Incog_nito

What about Chinese / Turkish FACs that we were buying?


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## aziqbal

syed_yusuf said:


> That was launching ceremony



good report

interesting export figures

quick summary 

Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS & EW)
Exports worth US $ 34 Mn.

National Radio Telecommunication Corporation (NRTC).
Exports worth US $ 8.5 Mn with almost 10 Mn $ orders in hand for CFY\

Pakistan Ordnance Factories (PoFs).
Exports in excess of USD 152 Mn

Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT)
Exports worth USD 11 Mn.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
Exports worth 17 Mn USD were made in last FY, orders for 370 Mn USD are
under finalization.

what the hell the HIT doing with $11 million in exports?? even telecommunications is better and they get so much money??

HIT needs to start exporting

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## ZAMURD

aziqbal said:


> good report
> 
> interesting export figures
> 
> quick summary
> 
> Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS & EW)
> Exports worth US $ 34 Mn.
> 
> National Radio Telecommunication Corporation (NRTC).
> Exports worth US $ 8.5 Mn with almost 10 Mn $ orders in hand for CFY\
> 
> Pakistan Ordnance Factories (PoFs).
> Exports in excess of USD 152 Mn
> 
> Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT)
> Exports worth USD 11 Mn.
> 
> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
> Exports worth 17 Mn USD were made in last FY, orders for 370 Mn USD are
> under finalization.
> 
> what the hell the HIT doing with $11 million in exports?? even telecommunications is better and they get so much money??
> 
> HIT needs to start exporting


These are annual figures??
WOW if these are true. I didn't think we exported this much.


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## Akh1112

ZAMURD said:


> These are annual figures??
> WOW if these are true. I didn't think we exported this much.


yes they are. Next year is going to look a whole lot better, im anticipating PAC to have close to $1bn in orders, including domestic and abroad.

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## khanasifm

Came across a video where pn dockyard were visited by someone and fifth azmat class is under construction per video ?
Again not sure if it was shared somewhere in news related to the visit


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## mzain

New specs for export

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @syed_yusuf

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509409311210057729

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## mzain

I think the PNS Haibat design is a bit changed from previous ones. Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 670 tons to accommodate some new weapons.

Great News anyway. We are waiting for a long time for this news. 
Congratulations PN. 
Congratulations Pakistan.

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## Sulman Badshah

PNS Haibat design has been changed, it is bigger and better than Azmat class 

- Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 673 Tons 
- Anti-submarine Rockets have been added 
- MR-36 B Radar has been added (azmat didn't had that) 
- 6x30mm Rapid-fire weapon has been added (instead of 1x23mm) 
- New ESM and Chaff launcher will enhance survivability

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## Primus

Sulman Badshah said:


> PNS Haibat design has been changed, it is bigger and better than Azmat class
> 
> - Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 673 Tons
> - Anti-submarine Rockets have been added
> - MR-36 B Radar has been added (azmat didn't had that)
> - 6x30mm Rapid-fire weapon has been added (instead of 1x23mm)
> - New ESM and Chaff launcher will enhance survivability


Does it have the ASESLAN STOP 25mm gun? 

Also will all the other Azmat class FAC be upgraded to this standard?


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## bananarepublic

Sulman Badshah said:


> - 6x30mm Rapid-fire weapon has been added (instead of 1x23mm)


how did we source this weapon


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## farooqbhai007

Huffal said:


> Does it have the ASESLAN STOP 25mm gun?
> 
> Also will all the other Azmat class FAC be upgraded to this standard?


The warship is fitted with a STOP 25mm RCWS and a 6 barrel 30mm chinese CIWS, 


bananarepublic said:


> how did we source this weapon



A little correction the 6x30mm refers to the chinese variant of the AK-360 6 barrelled 30mm gun which is also present on the warship , located in the aft in a CIWS role.

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## White privilege

Pakistan must build its newer ships around these large missiles like _Harbah, _smaller missiles would be insufficient against larger Indian vessels.

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## Tipu7

Sulman Badshah said:


> PNS Haibat design has been changed, it is bigger and better than Azmat class
> 
> - Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 673 Tons
> - Anti-submarine Rockets have been added
> - MR-36 B Radar has been added (azmat didn't had that)
> - 6x30mm Rapid-fire weapon has been added (instead of 1x23mm)
> - New ESM and Chaff launcher will enhance survivability


There are no ASROCs but chaff launchers.

H/PJ-13 (6X30mm) is standard CIWS of this class.

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## Sayfullah

Pakistan should have at least 10 FAC’s with the purpose of some being to level Indian naval bases during war and destroy Mumbai port

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## GOAT

What is the typical role of a Fast Attack Missile Craft in the PN doctrine?

Thanks

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509409311210057729





syed_yusuf said:


> this is an old pic





mzain said:


> I think the PNS Haibat design is a bit changed from previous ones. Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 670 tons to accommodate some new weapons.
> 
> Great News anyway. We are waiting for a long time for this news.
> Congratulations PN.
> Congratulations Pakistan.





mzain said:


> View attachment 826223
> 
> 
> New specs for export
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @syed_yusuf





AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The Fourth , Fast Attack Boat I believe is called "Haibat"





Incog_nito said:


> What about Chinese / Turkish FACs that we were buying?



Commissioning Ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s indigenously designed & constructed Fast Attack Craft Missile FAC(M) PNS HAIBAT & induction ceremony of third 16 Ton Bollard Pull Tug PNT GOGA was held at Karachi.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.






,.,.,.,.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Excellent Addition , nice to see that Navy made strides to improve this Missile Boat design and not give up on future enhancements


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## ABBASIA

Need further working by MTC and a ship redesigned to tonnage of 850-870 tonnes, in second step to 1200-1300 tonnes ship in second stage till we move on to our own corvette/frigate/destroyer and aircraft carrier design in steps.


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## Super Falcon

Why Pakistan not inductiong more of these Azmat class they are cheap if we are building then I'm KSEW and they are pretty fast too to out run any agressor


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## ShoaibMS

Why is Haibat not considered as a separate class from Azmat?


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## Tank131

ShoaibMS said:


> Why is Haibat not considered as a separate class from Azmat?


Because it and Himmat are basically Azmat with minor modifications. Only real significant change is the switching from C-802A to Harbah and the switching from a 23mm dual rapid fire cannon to a 25mm STOP RCWS as the main gun. My suspicion is the Azmat and Daishat will be refit with the same. 

These are not really FAC though. When i think FAC, i imagine a vessel hitting 50 knots. These are only capable of 30 knots (same at most large vessels in PN - f22p- 29knots, type 054A - 27knots, Miglem 30knot). These are really light corvettes if anything. 

I would rather see a focus on increasing the size to 850t and exchanging the STOP for a CIWS (H/PJ-13) In the front and replace the rear ciws with an 8 cell FL-3000N, add 2 light torpedo tubes on each side and maybe 2 rdc-32 rocket propelled depth charge launchers (like f22p). Couple the with a light towed sonar and pump out 10 of these to perform littoral defense.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## Super Falcon

Harbah on them make them even more deadly


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Sulman Badshah said:


> PNS Haibat design has been changed, it is bigger and better than Azmat class
> 
> - Tonnage has been increased from 560 to 673 Tons
> - Anti-submarine Rockets have been added
> - MR-36 B Radar has been added (azmat didn't had that)
> - 6x30mm Rapid-fire weapon has been added (instead of 1x23mm)
> - New ESM and Chaff launcher will enhance survivability





Primus said:


> Does it have the ASESLAN STOP 25mm gun?
> 
> Also will all the other Azmat class FAC be upgraded to this standard?





Super Falcon said:


> Why Pakistan not inductiong more of these Azmat class they are cheap if we are building then I'm KSEW and they are pretty fast too to out run any agressor





ABBASIA said:


> Need further working by MTC and a ship redesigned to tonnage of 850-870 tonnes, in second step to 1200-1300 tonnes ship in second stage till we move on to our own corvette/frigate/destroyer and aircraft carrier design in steps





Sayfullah said:


> Pakistan should have at least 10 FAC’s with the purpose of some being to level Indian naval bases during war and destroy Mumbai port





White privilege said:


> Pakistan must build its newer ships around these large missiles like _Harbah, _smaller missiles would be insufficient against larger Indian vessels.

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## Tank131

When they say Haibat has anti-sub rockets, im assuming they mean rocket propelled depth charges like the RDC-32? Pictures of the Azmat also appear to have some type of multi-tube launchers behind the AK-630. SO do all the Azmats have anti-sub "rockets" or only the Haibat?


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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580044090603106304

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## syed_yusuf

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580044090603106304


Does it also have size change ?


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## FuturePAF

Any chance of a main gun upgrade? This could be a decent upgrade in anti-surface capabilities (more rounds on target) as well as anti-air against smaller and faster targets


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582555936891469824


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## ghazi52

.,.

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